# CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)



## DeniseM

*NEW THREAD HERE:  

https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/n...ew-abound-vsn-documents-posted-online.343214/*

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Here is a link to the discussion on the Marriott forum - be nice over there, we may be adopted by them soon!  

*Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana and Marriott Ownerships*


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## Ken555

DeniseM said:


> we may be adopted by them soon!









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## jabberwocky

I guess we'll have to settle for being the ugly stepchildren


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## daviator

jabberwocky said:


> I guess we'll have to settle for being the ugly stepchildren


I will think of THEM as the ugly stepchildren.  Our properties are (mostly) nicer.


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## SueDonJ

Stepchildren aren't all bad. I refuse to sweep the floor after any of you but will be happy to sew you a beautiful ballgown if you're nice to me.


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## DeniseM

Ha Ha! That makes you our Fairy God Mother!


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## emeryjre

It will be interesting.  Own both Marriott and Vistana deeded weeks.  so if this point thing is not a great deal, at least I have my weeks.  And they will have to pry them away.


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## dioxide45

I just noticed this on a Vistana.com reservation we made today with StarOptions. The email is now coming from a Marriott Vacation Club address and has the look of the Marriott Vacation Club confirmations. I went back through some old confirmations we had and as of early November, it was still coming from Vistana Signature Experiences. Has anyone else noticed this? Perhaps a sign of the integration?

New Confirmation;




Old confirmation;


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## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> I just noticed this on a Vistana.com reservation we made today with StarOptions. The email is now coming from a Marriott Vacation Club address and has the look of the Marriott Vacation Club confirmations. I went back through some old confirmations we had and as of early November, it was still coming from Vistana Signature Experiences. Has anyone else noticed this? Perhaps a sign of the integration?
> 
> New Confirmation;
> View attachment 45272
> 
> Old confirmation;
> View attachment 45273



There are several posts about this earlier this week.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> There are several posts about this earlier this week.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yeah, looks like I missed it;








						New reservation email
					

I’m at SVR now. When I checked into the resort they handed me a piece of paper outlining potential issue during my stay due to a major upgrade to the reservation system today in order to become more compatible with Marriott. In passing I asked if this was due to a combined program for...




					tugbbs.com


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## jabberwocky

Actually I think some resorts may have started doing this in December. A few of us with reservations at WDW received confirmations.

At the time they looked like they were being generated by the Marriott Bonvoy hotel side. The address and format are identical to those I receive for regular hotel stays.


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## CalGalTraveler

emeryjre said:


> It will be interesting.  Own both Marriott and Vistana deeded weeks.  so if this point thing is not a great deal, at least I have my weeks.  And they will have to pry them away.



I feel the same way you do. If it involves significant money then we will simply enjoy what we have. We don't trade our unit, it is mandatory and trades in SOs so no matter what they cook up we are fine.


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## bogey21

CalGalTraveler said:


> I feel the same way you do. If it involves significant money then we will simply enjoy what we have. We don't trade our unit, it is mandatory and trades in SOs so no matter what they cook up we are fine.


The beauty of owning Weeks...

George


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## dioxide45

So it looks like Hilton is providing some kind of waiver at their presentations (perhaps if you buy) that you must sign indicating that any verbal information about their new program is not guaranteed. With all the talk at VIstana presentations about said new program and oral promises that the purchase of Sheraton or Westin Flex will get you into whatever new program Marriott cooks up, I wonder why they aren't having buyers sign something similar?








						HGV Max - Diamond Integration Discussion in Owner Update
					

Attended my first Hilton update in NY today (1/16/22) as an all resale owner (thanks for the $250 towards MFs for  30 minutes).  Salesman was pushing trading in my gold 1 BR at The District for a Platinum studio at The Quin for $26K.  Part of the pitch was inclusion of the upcoming HGV Max...




					tugbbs.com


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## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> So it looks like Hilton is providing some kind of waiver at their presentations (perhaps if you buy) that you must sign indicating that any verbal information about their new program is not guaranteed. With all the talk at VIstana presentations about said new program and oral promises that the purchase of Sheraton or Westin Flex will get you into whatever new program Marriott cooks up, I wonder why they aren't having buyers sign something similar?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HGV Max - Diamond Integration Discussion in Owner Update
> 
> 
> Attended my first Hilton update in NY today (1/16/22) as an all resale owner (thanks for the $250 towards MFs for  30 minutes).  Salesman was pushing trading in my gold 1 BR at The District for a Platinum studio at The Quin for $26K.  Part of the pitch was inclusion of the upcoming HGV Max...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com


Don't the Vistana contracts already have a clause in them that says that the document you are signing is the full contract and any verbal representations given in a presentation should not be relied upon or be considered part of the contract?  I thought I had to initial beside a line that included that when I made my Flex purchase.


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## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Don't the Vistana contracts already have a clause in them that says that the document you are signing is the full contract and any verbal representations given in a presentation should not be relied upon or be considered part of the contract?  I thought I had to initial beside a line that included that when I made my Flex purchase.


They do, but I would also expect the standard HGV contract to have the same. It seems odd that Hilton is putting out this separate document to sign.


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## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> They do, but I would also expect the standard HGV contract to have the same. It seems odd that Hilton is putting out this separate document to sign.


Just in case you need the Legaleze to English translation of that document, here's what it means in English:

"We may have lied to you, possibly many times and on a variety of subjects, during the presentation.  Don't believe anything we said unless it's in the contract.  If you rely on anything we told you, that's on you.  We reserve the right to deny even having met you."


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## Tucsonadventurer

As a Kierland owner joining a combined program makes no sense if our unit is devalued as much as they claim. If it equals the points a comparable Marriott in the Desert is that would maybe get us a few days in Hawaii. We would need to buy a lot of Marriott points to use our week as we do now. We can try at 8 mos and use it as we do now but it will be tough to get in.If we need to we will rent Kierland and pay for a condo. We will adapt. Luckily we already have summer reservations. Our salesman kept saying it would be fair but that the above scenario was fair.


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## dioxide45

Tucsonadventurer said:


> As a Kierland owner joining a combined program makes no sense if our unit is devalued as much as they claim. If it equals the points a comparable Marriott in the Desert is that would maybe get us a few days in Hawaii. We would need to buy a lot of Marriott points to use our week as we do now. We can try at 8 mos and use it as we do now but it will be tough to get in.If we need to we will rent Kierland and pay for a condo. We will adapt. Luckily we already have summer reservations. Our salesman kept saying it would be fair but that the above scenario was fair.


I think this is the biggest challenge for a new program with how Vistana valued their seasons with the same StarOption value across many resorts. Certainly Marriott could value the desert properties more in line with the other Marriott ones there. One could say you can still use StarOptions to book Hawaii as you do now, but Many Hawaii owners may opt for DC points if they afford them more value. There is no easy way to balance a new system with the current setup.


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## chemteach

The main benefit I see of joining DC would be having the ability to rent in DC points.  Other than that, anyone who owns non-Hawaii, non-St. John, non-Harborside weeks would likely not deposit their week into the DC system because much more value is received within the current Vistana system for WKV, WMH, WDW owners as compared with Marriott Palm Desert owners in the DC system.


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## Mowogo

chemteach said:


> The main benefit I see of joining DC would be having the ability to rent in DC points.  Other than that, anyone who owns non-Hawaii, non-St. John, non-Harborside weeks would likely not deposit their week into the DC system because much more value is received within the current Vistana system for WKV, WMH, WDW owners as compared with Marriott Palm Desert owners in the DC system.


Those that form TUG and maximize would be resistant, but we have to remember that we are only a very small minority of timeshare owners.  Quite a few owners could see the added flexibility with the additional resorts, and if it gave access at the DC booking windows could potentially make the negative conversions more palatable, especially for Flex owners.


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## lorenmd

we went to a marriott owner's update last week and a vistana owner's update today. we are at our home resort and know these salespeople quite well. what we are getting is there will be a totally new name.  there is a soft launch end of february.  marriott is pulling out of II. westin flex, sheraton flex ,adventuras and nanea will be convertible to the new marriott points per vistana salespeople.  the marriott salespeople said no they will not.  Vistana sales is adamant that those 4 trust systems will be allowed in marriott and at this point they said no fee.   they do not know if at some point in network VO will be able to convert to marriott points.  so, we were offered to trade in a week at kierland and and every other week at SDO both one bedrooms, total of 120k SO annually, for an additional 15k and retro two one bedroom SDO units i bought for a dollar, to add 148k SO to my account. so i give up 120k SO and 15k and receive 126k westin flex and 148k SO.  also 200k bonvoy points and 4 of the vouchers to buy bonvoy points.  i live and breath bonvoy points so that was a big deal. i think i looks like a favorable deal for what we want.  we used to stay at SDO using company 47 staroptions chart which is only 44k/week.  well we bought a house here so we no longer need SDO or kierland. what say you TUG. 15k is not a lot to get 148k SO and be in the trust with 126k SO instead of just in the network SO.


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## vacationtime1

lorenmd said:


> we went to a marriott owner's update last week and a vistana owner's update today. we are at our home resort and know these salespeople quite well. what we are getting is there will be a totally new name.  there is a soft launch end of february.  marriott is pulling out of II. westin flex, sheraton flex ,adventuras and nanea will be convertible to the new marriott points per vistana salespeople.  the marriott salespeople said no they will not.  Vistana sales is adamant that those 4 trust systems will be allowed in marriott and at this point they said no fee.   they do not know if at some point in network VO will be able to convert to marriott points.  so, we were offered to trade in a week at kierland and and every other week at SDO both one bedrooms, total of 120k SO annually, for an additional 15k and retro two one bedroom SDO units i bought for a dollar, to add 148k SO to my account. so i give up 120k SO and 15k and receive 126k westin flex and 148k SO.  also 200k bonvoy points and 4 of the vouchers to buy bonvoy points.  i live and breath bonvoy points so that was a big deal. i think i looks like a favorable deal for what we want.  we used to stay at SDO using company 47 staroptions chart which is only 44k/week.  well we bought a house here so we no longer need SDO or kierland. what say you TUG. 15k is not a lot to get 148k SO and be in the trust with 126k SO instead of just in the network SO.


How many of these representations about convertibility into the new system are in writing?  I suspect none.  So why pay $15K?


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## daviator

lorenmd said:


> we went to a marriott owner's update last week and a vistana owner's update today. we are at our home resort and know these salespeople quite well. what we are getting is there will be a totally new name.  there is a soft launch end of february.  marriott is pulling out of II. westin flex, sheraton flex ,adventuras and nanea will be convertible to the new marriott points per vistana salespeople.  the marriott salespeople said no they will not.  Vistana sales is adamant that those 4 trust systems will be allowed in marriott and at this point they said no fee.   they do not know if at some point in network VO will be able to convert to marriott points.  so, we were offered to trade in a week at kierland and and every other week at SDO both one bedrooms, total of 120k SO annually, for an additional 15k and retro two one bedroom SDO units i bought for a dollar, to add 148k SO to my account. so i give up 120k SO and 15k and receive 126k westin flex and 148k SO.  also 200k bonvoy points and 4 of the vouchers to buy bonvoy points.  i live and breath bonvoy points so that was a big deal. i think i looks like a favorable deal for what we want.  we used to stay at SDO using company 47 staroptions chart which is only 44k/week.  well we bought a house here so we no longer need SDO or kierland. what say you TUG. 15k is not a lot to get 148k SO and be in the trust with 126k SO instead of just in the network SO.


It seems likely that this same sort of deal will still be available in a month, after the supposed soft launch.  This idea that you have to buy now or the deal is going to disappear, that's the oldest sales technique in the book.  Trust me, you can wait until all is revealed, and they will still be happy to take your money.


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## elysium5

daviator said:


> It seems likely that this same sort of deal will still be available in a month, after the supposed soft launch.  This idea that you have to buy now or the deal is going to disappear, that's the oldest sales technique in the book.  Trust me, you can wait until all is revealed, and they will still be happy to take your money.


Who would think that a timeshare salesperson would take your money at any time?!


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## CanadianLawyer

dioxide45 said:


> I just noticed this on a Vistana.com reservation we made today with StarOptions. The email is now coming from a Marriott Vacation Club address and has the look of the Marriott Vacation Club confirmations. I went back through some old confirmations we had and as of early November, it was still coming from Vistana Signature Experiences. Has anyone else noticed this? Perhaps a sign of the integration?
> 
> New Confirmation;
> View attachment 45272
> 
> Old confirmation;
> View attachment 45273


My latest reservation was on January 11th and the confirmation came from a Vistana address so the change must have occurred between the 12th and the 15th.


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## CPNY

lorenmd said:


> we went to a marriott owner's update last week and a vistana owner's update today. we are at our home resort and know these salespeople quite well. what we are getting is there will be a totally new name.  there is a soft launch end of february.  marriott is pulling out of II. westin flex, sheraton flex ,adventuras and nanea will be convertible to the new marriott points per vistana salespeople.  the marriott salespeople said no they will not.  Vistana sales is adamant that those 4 trust systems will be allowed in marriott and at this point they said no fee.   they do not know if at some point in network VO will be able to convert to marriott points.  so, we were offered to trade in a week at kierland and and every other week at SDO both one bedrooms, total of 120k SO annually, for an additional 15k and retro two one bedroom SDO units i bought for a dollar, to add 148k SO to my account. so i give up 120k SO and 15k and receive 126k westin flex and 148k SO.  also 200k bonvoy points and 4 of the vouchers to buy bonvoy points.  i live and breath bonvoy points so that was a big deal. i think i looks like a favorable deal for what we want.  we used to stay at SDO using company 47 staroptions chart which is only 44k/week.  well we bought a house here so we no longer need SDO or kierland. what say you TUG. 15k is not a lot to get 148k SO and be in the trust with 126k SO instead of just in the network SO.


If your WKV is a platinum week, I wouldn’t give it back


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## cindylou

Need advice re: authorizing resale Vistana, Marriott Chairman’s Club and Titanium, 13 months out reservation benefit. Looking for TUGgers who authorized resale Vistana weeks, and Marriott Destination Club Point villa owners with two or more weeks to advise and confirm what we were told

Went to our Vistana owner’s update last weekend and was told:

-       This will be the last opportunity to authorize resale Vistana units prior to Marriott reservation system merger in May (yeah, whatever)

-       New reservation/StarOptions/Marriott Destination Club Point system will address the disconnect between owners who purchased same number of points for different prices, meaning those who purchased 176,700 StarOptions at Maui will have higher priority or take less StarOptions getting a Maui reservation vs someone who purchased 176,700 StarOptions elsewhere, effectively devaluing certain properties.  For example, it may take twice the normal Lakeside Terrace StarOptions to get a studio at WKORV at the 8- month point

-       If we paid to authorize our 4 WKORV OF we would qualify for 5 star elite and Titanium level now and then after merger Marriott Chairman’s Club; Chairman’s Club will let us make our reservations 13 months out from check-in, 1 month earlier than owners who only own 1 week

We were offered:

-       Purchase 1 BR Oceanview WKORV South every other year and authorize our 4 WKORV Oceanfront resales for $25,667 ($10K to authorize first unit, then $5K for each one after)

-       81,000 StarOptions (7 nights in a 1BR at WKORV)

-       Makes us 5 star elite

-       1 Million wholesale (Marriott?) points for purchase option (4 certificates of 270K at $1875 each) until Dec 15, 2023; points good for 6 years

Our situation and thought process

-       For the last 15 years we had no interest in 5 star elite benefits

o                  We rarely use Marriott points for stays but sometimes do convert to airline miles

o                  We always use all our StarOptions to stay in one of our home resorts (WKORV)

o                   If we don’t use our WKORV weeks, we rent them out

-       We got tired of moving every week for 8 weeks at WKORV and could not bring our dog so we bought a condo up the hill from WKORV and will be here 4-6 months a year

-       We anticipate renting out all 4 weeks of WKORV

-       The 13-month reservation window from potential Chairman’s Club is appealing now to minimize the stress of 7 weeks of making reservations at exactly one year out

-       The Float Period waitlist could be useful since our 2 of our fixed weeks are 5 weeks apart and we might want to make the 4 weeks consecutive

-       Authorizing all the weeks would make future owner’s updates painless – they could offer nothing we don’t already have

-       We don’t think we’ve ever seen this low price to authorize 4 weeks

-       We are actually planning trips to Europe, Bora Bora and Maldives where Marriott points (and converting Villa options to points) could be very useful, but then again the best bang for our buck is probably renting out Maui weeks instead of converting to point for other travel

Obviously the above is probably not worth $25K, or is it?

Marriott Ocean Club owners with 2 or more weeks – is it true you get to make your reservations at 13 months out, while those with only 1 week have to wait for 12 months out?  We were shown a chart that indicated everyone could already reserve at 13 months out, so it appears our “advantage” would be shared by all owners anyway and therefore not an advantage at all.

Marriott Owners with 2 or more weeks – are you able to make reservations for 2 consecutive weeks in one phone call? We were told that is the case.  This would also reduce our stress.

5-star Elites – do we really need any of those benefits if we are just going to rent out our units?

Vistana owners – have you regretted authorizing any of your resale weeks?

I bluffed and said we were not interested, hoping to see if they’d lower the prices, but they just brought us the Encore package instead, so we plunked down the $99 to keep our options open for another few days.  Encore package will be 1BR WKORV for $1894 for 6 days (or studio for $1594)

Any advice welcomed.  We need to back out of the Encore or make a move by Wed Feb


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## daviator

I will randomly hit on a few of your points/questions:

My mom and her husband own at Maui Ocean Club (for many years) and they indeed get to make reservations 13 months out.  I *think* they can reserve two weeks at that point but I'm not 100% sure.  Better to get verification from someone who is certain.

I do agree that's a pretty low price to get all of your weeks authorized.  But you have to decide if you'll actually use those newfound benefits, if you won't use them, they don't have value to you.  

Keep in mind that they keep devaluing Bonvoy points.  Back in the Starwood days, those hotel points you could convert to were actually worth something.  Now they are worth less with every year that passes.  I expect that will continue, so I wouldn't attach a lot of value to that option.  Still, it was useful to be able to convert some of my ownerships to Bonvoy points in 2020/2021, when I was desperate to get SOME value out of an ownership I was never going to fully use amidst the pandemic. Options are good to have, but Bonvoy points aren't a great one.

I do attach some value to Platinum or Titanium Bonvoy status.  I've gotten some great upgrades from my status, though it's hit or miss and not something you can count on.  A few years ago when we were in Budapest – I was "only" Platinum then – the hotel had our names on a special signboard when we arrived, and we got a huge suite that must have been 2,000 square feet, all for the price of one of their cheaper rooms.  They treated us like royalty due to our status.  So when it happens it's pretty nice.

All of my weeks are developer purchases (I know, I know...) and owner updates are still not painless.  They always find something to try to tempt you with.  So don't count on the updates ever being pain-free.

Now I don't regret my developer purchases, though I know more now and probably wouldn't buy that way again.  And I do use many of the benefits that you get with authorized weeks, so if I was in your shoes, I'd probably spend $25K to authorize all those weeks.  But I'm not sure I'd feel the same way if my plan was to always rent them out.  In that case, the benefits to you are pretty paltry.  

Oh, one last thing, those Bonvoy point purchase certificates – some people really like those, I don't think they are a great deal.  I think "The Points Guy" says that Bonvoy points are worth 7¢ each.  So that 270K points (I thought it was 240K, but maybe they've changed it) is worth about the same price you'd pay for it.  So unless you think you can find a way to use those points and get quite a bit more than 7¢ each in value, I'd rather just spend my $1875 on hotel rooms directly (and I'll earn credit card rewards and Bonvoy points for doing so.)  Why lock your money up in a currency with a value that declines with every year that passes?

Just my thoughts.  Good luck with your decision and enjoy Maui!


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## Bird01

I'm skeptical that they will convert Vistana Elite 5 to Marriott Chairman's Club without a fee or a purchase. Our Vistana sales rep made it sound like it's a done deal. Any thoughts on that?


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## DeniseM

Any thoughts would be pure speculation - NOTHING official has been announced.


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## dioxide45

Bird01 said:


> I'm skeptical that they will convert Vistana Elite 5 to Marriott Chairman's Club without a fee or a purchase. Our Vistana sales rep made it sound like it's a done deal. Any thoughts on that?


It is hard to tell. It might require that you own either Westin or Sheraton Flex on the outset and those count toward elite levels and can play in the combined program. It may require some kind of enrollment fee like Marriott weeks owners had to pay to play. We don't know how they will handle Vistana weeks. Doubtful that they will just use the StarOptions from those to count toward Elite status. Those are more likely to convert on a resort by resort, season by season and unit by unit level. So a 2BR in Hawaii is worth more Marriott points than a 2BR in the desert. That is even if they allow Vistana weeks to play in the new system.


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## daviator

It's a bit ironic that they are now going to down-value some of the resorts, when for years, they sold those resorts as the best way to get more StarOptions for less money.  Now they're going to try to reduce the value of those purchases, reportedly.

I think it's all back to timeshare basics: you want to own fixed weeks at properties you enjoy and want to use.  Everything else – the trading and exchanging, etc. – can and will be taken away or changed at the whim of the company.  I'm happy that I never bought at a property just for its trading value.


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## dss

Is anyone else concerned that allowing top elite members a 13 month booking window will make booking of OF units at WKORV or WKORVN next to impossible at the 12 month mark?


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## vacationtime1

dss said:


> Is anyone else concerned that allowing top elite members a 13 month booking window will make booking of OF units at WKORV or WKORVN next to impossible at the 12 month mark?


The only inventory of OF units MVC would have available to reserve at the 13 month mark (or at the 12 month mark for that matter) would be units voluntarily relinquished by OF owners -- presumably in exchange for Bonvoy points.  And unless MVC permits OF owners to participate in the new program, owners won't be able to relinquish units to MVC and MVC will not have the inventory it wants.

To my knowledge, neither MVC nor the Westin Flex Trust owns OF units at either WKORV or WKORVN.  If MVC wants OF owners to release that inventory, MVC will have to do sufficient things to induce them (us) to do so.


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## tborr123

I have randomly read discussions on the effect of the merger on Vistana owners and am totally confused so waiting for official word. My question: as a floating OF week and week 51 OF owner at WKORV can they devalue my units or make it harder to book the floating week?


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## DanCali

Bird01 said:


> I'm skeptical that they will convert Vistana Elite 5 to Marriott Chairman's Club without a fee or a purchase. Our Vistana sales rep made it sound like it's a done deal. Any thoughts on that?




I think that's reasonable to assume, but that's just speculation.

Anyone who is 5* Elite already "paid the price" for that benefit some way or another. When Marriott Hotels bought Starwood they did things to balance the Elite levels and I think they will do the same here. 649K SOs is a lot and probably just a small fraction of owners have that much. At the rumored 1:32 rate that was going on for a while that's 20,281 DC points, well above the 15K level required. And, on the MVC side, the benefits for Charman's Club and Presidential are not that much more than Executive, so it's not like they are giving up that much to begin with...


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## DeniseM

tborr123 said:


> I have randomly read discussions on the effect of the merger on Vistana owners and am totally confused so waiting for official word. My question: as a floating OF week and week 51 OF owner at WKORV can they devalue my units or make it harder to book the floating week?



The reason that it's confusing is that people are just speculating/guessing/making it up as they go along - *there has been NO official announcement at all.*


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## dioxide45

DeniseM said:


> The reason that it's confusing is that people are just speculating/guessing/making it up as they go along - *there has been NO official announcement at all.*


I personally like the making it up as I go along.


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## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> I personally like the making it up as I go along.



Why stop a good thing? These threads are already fiction, keep going!


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## jabberwocky

dss said:


> Is anyone else concerned that allowing top elite members a 13 month booking window will make booking of OF units at WKORV or WKORVN next to impossible at the 12 month mark?


No. The governing documents explicitly state that all owners of floating weeks can only begin booking one year in advance.

The only way I can see a 13 month window being adopted is if there was a vote to change the underlying agreement for all owners. Otherwise, even if a week were to be put into the MVC trust, the trust as owner of the week would not be allowed to book a particular week until the 12 month mark.

It is the one thing I have liked about Vistana vs some other systems.It is fairly egalitarian when it comes to booking windows.  All owners have pretty much equal access to booking regardless of elite status. I hope it stays this way.


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## lorenmd

i was told with my 4*elite status i now will now be presidential and i have a 13 month booking window. that nanea is the most valuable followed by westin flex followed by sheraton flex.  i think they are 32:1 28:1 and 26:1  or 32, 30 and 28 but i don't have my paperwork in front of me.  don't know how in network weeks will be treated or if you have to permanently or temporarily trade them in for DC points but it was thought that it was only on a year by year basis. not permanent forfeit for DC points. and the points ratio value will be determined by what you own.   soft launch at the end of the month and the new name will be released and it is a two syllable word that is as strange as bonvoy was when it was first released. but look we've all gotten used to bonvoy


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## dioxide45

lorenmd said:


> i was told with my 4*elite status i now will now be presidential and i have a 13 month booking window. that nanea is the most valuable followed by westin flex followed by sheraton flex.  i think they are 32:1 28:1 and 26:1  or 32, 30 and 28 but i don't have my paperwork in front of me.  don't know how in network weeks will be treated or if you have to permanently or temporarily trade them in for DC points but it was thought that it was only on a year by year basis. not permanent forfeit for DC points. and the points ratio value will be determined by what you own.   soft launch at the end of the month and the new name will be released and it is a two syllable word that is as strange as bonvoy was when it was first released. but look we've all gotten used to bonvoy


The way to look at this though is you will have a 13 month booking window to book inventory that others have gave up to also use to book in the combined system. You won't have access to owner inventory or weeks that haven't been booked because they are planning to use for StarOption reservations. There will be many buckets of inventory here. There will probably be a defined annual election where you have to tell Marriott that you plan to use your ownership in the combined system. You can then book what is available from all those others that also made the same annual election.


----------



## er57

daviator said:


> Why lock your money up in a currency with a value that declines with every year that passes?



Sell your dollars then too! . . . being devalued every day.


----------



## lorenmd

dioxide45 said:


> The way to look at this though is you will have a 13 month booking window to book inventory that others have gave up to also use to book in the combined system. You won't have access to owner inventory or weeks that haven't been booked because they are planning to use for StarOption reservations. There will be many buckets of inventory here. There will probably be a defined annual election where you have to tell Marriott that you plan to use your ownership in the combined system. You can then book what is available from all those others that also made the same annual election.


yes we talked about that. he did say that the bucket is getting more inventory everyday. people are trading in their weeks for flex and marriott will start selling the new unified product shortly. i think many weeks owners will trade in on a year by year basis to get into a marriott.  they both have great inventory and i am excited to explore new places.


----------



## dioxide45

lorenmd said:


> yes we talked about that. he did say that the bucket is getting more inventory everyday. people are trading in their weeks for flex and marriott will start selling the new unified product shortly. i think many weeks owners will trade in on a year by year basis to get into a marriott.  they both have great inventory and i am excited to explore new places.


But I don't think the bucket for DC points will be the same as Flex. Flex owners will still need to convert to these new type of points (or existing DC points) before that inventory becomes available as a whole for 13 month reservations. In reality, only those Flex owners that decide they want to stay at a Marriott or find it better to book with the new points will opt to go for it. All Flex inventory will not be open to 13 month bookings. It will only be a subset of Flex inventory.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

AFAIK Flex does not have WKORV OF. Sales rep fiction?


----------



## daviator

CalGalTraveler said:


> AFAIK Flex does not have WKORV OF. Sales rep fiction?


My understanding is that you are correct.  WKORV OF was sold out as deeded weeks.  It's possible that the developer has a handful which were foreclosures or deed-backs – but those weeks are the most valuable of the property, and it seems unlikely that many folks would just hand them back to the developer.  Maybe some ROFR weeks could have gone into the Flex pool, but again, I am not aware that this is true.


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> My understanding is that you are correct.  WKORV OF was sold out as deeded weeks.  It's possible that the developer has a handful which were foreclosures or deed-backs – but those weeks are the most valuable of the property, and it seems unlikely that many folks would just hand them back to the developer.  Maybe some ROFR weeks could have gone into the Flex pool, but again, I am not aware that this is true.


My understanding is that any OF weeks that Vistana gets back, they resell them as deeded weeks and do not add them to any of the Flex trusts. They are more valuable as weeks than they are as the HomeOption value they would go into the Flex trust as.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

So if this is true. What does OPs "authorize 4 WKORV OF" mean? It is already mandatory resale. The resale value is good and the units rent so well they would likely do better renting the units out and using the rent profit to pay for Europe hotels. They should never trade or transition these high value units for Bonvoy points (bad deal).

So they get elite credit + one more MF for life for the 1 bdrm for "only" $25k?  IMHO....Sounds like bad deal especially since they don't plan to stay there and Bonvoy elite can be had via a credit card. On top of that you have to pay $1800 x 4 for the Bonvoy points? Travel blogs are full of stories that Bonvoy Elite benefits are flaky and vary by hotel. Run away.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> So if this is true. What does OPs "authorize 4 WKORV OF" mean? It is already mandatory resale. The resale value is good and the units rent so well they would likely do better renting the units out and using the rent profit to pay for Europe hotels. They should never trade or transition these high value units for Bonvoy points (bad deal).
> 
> So they get elite credit + one more MF for life for the 1 bdrm for "only" $25k?  IMHO....Sounds like bad deal especially since they don't plan to stay there and Bonvoy elite can be had via a credit card. On top of that you have to pay $1800 x 4 for the Bonvoy points? Travel blogs are full of stories that Bonvoy Elite benefits are flaky and vary by hotel. Run away.


Authorizing them just means they can now count the SOs toward Elite levels and they can convert the weeks to Bonvoy. The StarOptions can also be used for other services like Resort Credit and Cruises. Mandatory unauthorized resales can't do those things.


----------



## vincedee

I'm a current owner of 67k ish points (studio ish) at Nanea relatively new member.  I got a sales rep call for upgrading to the flex option which includes a group of different properties up to 81k points (1 bedroom full week).   usual sales rep tactic saying this deal might not be available for long with the Marriott merger.  They also mentioned that exclusive 8 to 12 month booking window will be honored for these Westin Properties when the merger completes (not sure if that is BS or not).  I was already looking to purchase Marriott as it had additional properties that I was interested in.   I was curious if it would be worth the upgrade or should I wait to see how the merger works out in terms of points?


----------



## daviator

vincedee said:


> I'm a current owner of 67k ish points (studio ish) at Nanea relatively new member.  I got a sales rep call for upgrading to the flex option which includes a group of different properties up to 81k points (1 bedroom full week).   usual sales rep tactic saying this deal might not be available for long with the Marriott merger.  They also mentioned that exclusive 8 to 12 month booking window will be honored for these Westin Properties when the merger completes (not sure if that is BS or not).  I was already looking to purchase Marriott as it had additional properties that I was interested in.   I was curious if it would be worth the upgrade or should I wait to see how the merger works out in terms of points?


in my opinion, you should wait and see what happens.  In particular, if you like Nanea and plan to keep vacationing there, DO NOT convert to Flex, or you will probably find it difficult to impossible to get in there in the future.

Vistana sells Flex by telling people that you get access to all these properties, with Maui being what nearly everyone wants.  But the reality is that most of the Flex inventory is the scraps from other locations that they couldn’t sell before.  There's not a huge amount of Maui inventory in the Flex pool, so if you buy into that, you’re suddenly competing with all of the other Flex owners who want to go to Maui and must compete for those few weeks.  You are much better off with your Nanea HomeOptions where you are pretty much guaranteed to get in if you book at 12 months.


----------



## cindylou

Thanks everyone for the reminders of what we already knew (mostly), but forget when getting sucked into their sales pitches to authorize our weeks "for only 25K."  TUG to the rescue again.

We are running away and sending the Encore cancellation document via certified mail. (Damn them they only accept faxes and mail, not email, and I doubt I could get confirmation a fax was received).


----------



## rcv82

While I’m not recommending the Flex conversion, as a Flex owner I do want to point out that I always find good Nanea availability in Flex resort view and there is reasonable inventory of WKORV ocean and resort view. (No oceanfront anywhere). 

Where Flex inventory is extremely limited is places like Riverfront in ski season, WKV in prime season. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jabberwocky

I’ve never had a problem booking Maui with Flex. I think a large proportion of Nanea is actually in Flex. I like being able to add 3-4 days extra to our home week booking at WKORVN- although I do wish they had OF so we didn’t have to switch rooms. Being able to book that together at 12 months is so much better than hoping we can get the extra days via SO at 8 months.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

We just received the following email from someone with a vacationclub.com email address. The fact that they actually spelled our name incorrectly in the letter intro. doesn't bode well for them if they expect me to respond although I do not suspect it's a phishing email as there is not link to click.

Vistana/Marriott Final Integration, Please Respond 

Dear Mr and Mrs Name Spelled Incorrectly, 

As you may already know, we are in the final stages of the Marriott/Vistana Integration which will be complete in a matter of weeks. As this process moves forward, there will be decisions and choices that all Vistana owners will be making in the coming months. However, your account has been marked for "Special Review" prior to final integration since you have 2 options which will be expiring shortly.

I was a Senior Account Executive with Marriott; now working as part of a corporate team helping select Vistana owners with this transition. Given the limited time along with the overwhelming number of Starwood owners we are trying to accommodate, we are conducting these reviews on a virtual basis only. So, as you can imagine, we have limited time slots available as below. Please let us know by email which dates and times work best for you either this week or next and we'll try to accommodate you.

 When scheduling, please keep in mind that everyone listed on your ownership will need to attend the meeting.


----------



## KACTravels

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> However, your account has been marked for "Special Review" prior to final integration since you have 2 options which will be expiring shortly.



Thank you for posting this.  I am curious what your interpretation is of "2 options which will be expiring shortly" or why your account was "marked for "Special Review".  I know it is all speculation until finalized, but this seems the most indicative that we are getting close to the actual merger.  Are you going to meet with them virtually?


----------



## alexadeparis

The email sounds like a sales tactic, nothing more.


----------



## CPNY

This may Have been covered. But it seems there are more and more reports coming in from different sales presentations across the country that are similar. It seems the 32:1 ratio is being told to everyone at all different resorts as well as the claim that Marriott owners will be able to be book at vistana resorts at 8 months. My questions are this:

1.Considering they are all “on the same page” Is Marriott opening themselves to a class action lawsuit if these claims don’t actually come to fruition?

2.Can Marriott treat everyone currently in the VSN like an enrolled week and just assign weeks a DC point values and move everything into the DC exchange, thus doing away with the VSN?

3.Anyone on an update lately with a different story?


----------



## VacationForever

I find the email fishy (phishy) with the use of the Starwood term.  I would just ignore it.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> This may Have been covered. But it seems there are more and more reports coming in from different sales presentations across the country that are similar. It seems the 32:1 ratio is being told to everyone at all different resorts as well as the claim that Marriott owners will be able to be book at vistana resorts at 8 months. My questions are this:
> 
> 1.Considering they are all “on the same page” Is Marriott opening themselves to a class action lawsuit if these claims don’t actually come to fruition?
> 
> 2.Can Marriott treat everyone currently in the VSN like an enrolled week and just assign weeks a DC point values and move everything into the DC exchange, thus doing away with the VSN?
> 
> 3.Anyone on an update lately with a different story?


I certainly think there is truth to the 32:1 and 28:1 numbers. But the big question remains is, does that only apply to Flex product? I think it will. Weeks, if given the option will convert at some amount determined on resort, season, view and unit size. So a 2BR Prime at SVV may get 2,500 points where a similar 81K week at WKV may get a higher amount. Hawaii even more. I am still not sure if weeks will even be given this option. What Marriott might be best to do is offer people to trade in their Vistana weeks for points to feed the trust (or a new trust) with Vistana inventory. Vistana seemed pretty successful with the trade in program several years ago and thus why we now see so few SVV Prime weeks popping up on Ebay.

Marriott can certainly change VSN unilaterally, but they will want to make it look like nothing is changing for owners that don't opt for the new program. Also that you can continue to do what you do today. This looks better for PR and also shields them from lawsuit, regardless if they are legally in the right by changing VSN in such a drastic way. Lawsuits are expensive, even when you can win.


----------



## alexadeparis

dioxide45 said:


> I certainly think there is truth to the 32:1 and 28:1 numbers. But the big question remains is, does that only apply to Flex product? I think it will. Weeks, if given the option will convert at some amount determined on resort, season, view and unit size. So a 2BR Prime at SVV may get 2,500 points where a similar 81K week at WKV may get a higher amount. Hawaii even more. I am still not sure if weeks will even be given this option. What Marriott might be best to do is offer people to trade in their Vistana weeks for points to feed the trust (or a new trust) with Vistana inventory. Vistana seemed pretty successful with the trade in program several years ago and thus why we now see so few SVV Prime weeks popping up on Ebay.
> 
> Marriott can certainly change VSN unilaterally, but they will want to make it look like nothing is changing for owners that don't opt for the new program. Also that you can continue to do what you do today. This looks better for PR and also shields them from lawsuit, regardless if they are legally in the right by changing VSN in such a drastic way. Lawsuits are expensive, even when you can win.



The 28 and 32 numbers have been thrown around quite a bit, so I guess what I question, not being super familiar with Marriott points-based timeshares (I used to own a non enrolled week), is are those values realistic for a Marriott equivalent unit? And if they are, would the FLEX really be the only product allowed to access MVC, or is it just that the product would be the only one auto -enrolled while the rest of us unwashed Starwooders have to pay to play? If I have to pay 6 separate enrollment fees, one per unit, regardless of status of resale or retail, that would probably NOT be ok with me, and I would probably downsize some of these, and lose my 4 star elite status. I have been holding on to some of these for a long time waiting to see what Marriott is going to do. If I only had to pay one "kind of high" enrollment fee for my resale to legitimize it, i would be ok with that, too. If I had to pay one modest fee, for all 6, I would do that. 

For me as a personal example: I was told the Westin and Harborside would be the 28 ratio, while Sheratons would be the 32, at the presentation i went to, so: 
WSJ #1 - 125,000 SO = 4464 MVC Points  @ 28:1
WSJ #2 - 125,000 SO = 4464 MVC Points @ 28:1 EVEN 2232 annualized
HRA - 148,100 SO = 5289 MVC Points @ 28:1 (hopefully)
SVV - 81,000 SO = 2531 MVC Points @ 32:1   EVEN 1265 annualized (although this is a resale right now and not qualified)
SVR #1 81,000 SO = 2531 MVC Points @ 32:1 EVEN 1265 annualized
SVR #2 81,000 SO = 2531 MVC Points @ 32:1 EVEN 1265 annualized

So brings me to roughly 14,500 qualified MVC points a year (if we assume resales are out of the picture), rounded down. So that puts me where on the Marriott status level?  Given my husband's illness, I would love to be able to make full use of the MVC system, then I could rent the points and hopefully offset most if not all my Maintenance fees. I don't want to let go of all of these just yet, until the dust settles on my husband's illness - which they have said he may live only a few more years, and quite frankly, I don't know what my life will be like 1, 5 or 10 years down the road, but I know I won't be traveling at all really in the short term. But 10 years from now, who knows, I may be remarried, and want to travel again, so I would like to keep my options open. Whatever Marriott is going to do, I wish they would just get it over with already and tell us. This multiple years of suspense is total BS.


----------



## SueDonJ

VacationForever said:


> I find the email fishy (phishy) with the use of the Starwood term.  I would just ignore it.



This sounds like other sales emails that have been sent out. But if I were concerned that it's fraudulent (spam) or mis/disinformation being unofficially offered by a sales rep employed by MVW, I'd forward it to CustomerAdvocacy[AT]VacationClub.com.


----------



## CPNY

alexadeparis said:


> The 28 and 32 numbers have been thrown around quite a bit, so I guess what I question, not being super familiar with Marriott points-based timeshares (I used to own a non enrolled week), is are those values realistic for a Marriott equivalent unit? And if they are, would the FLEX really be the only product allowed to access MVC, or is it just that the product would be the only one auto -enrolled while the rest of us unwashed Starwooders have to pay to play? If I have to pay 6 separate enrollment fees, one per unit, regardless of status of resale or retail, that would probably NOT be ok with me, and I would probably downsize some of these, and lose my 4 star elite status. I have been holding on to some of these for a long time waiting to see what Marriott is going to do. If I only had to pay one "kind of high" enrollment fee for my resale to legitimize it, i would be ok with that, too. If I had to pay one modest fee, for all 6, I would do that.
> 
> For me as a personal example: I was told the Westin and Harborside would be the 28 ratio, while Sheratons would be the 32, at the presentation i went to, so:
> WSJ #1 - 125,000 SO = 4464 MVC Points  @ 28:1
> WSJ #2 - 125,000 SO = 4464 MVC Points @ 28:1 EVEN 2232 annualized
> HRA - 148,100 SO = 5289 MVC Points @ 28:1 (hopefully)
> SVV - 81,000 SO = 2531 MVC Points @ 32:1   EVEN 1265 annualized (although this is a resale right now and not qualified)
> SVR #1 81,000 SO = 2531 MVC Points @ 32:1 EVEN 1265 annualized
> SVR #2 81,000 SO = 2531 MVC Points @ 32:1 EVEN 1265 annualized
> 
> So brings me to roughly 14,500 qualified MVC points a year (if we assume resales are out of the picture), rounded down. So that puts me where on the Marriott status level?  Given my husband's illness, I would love to be able to make full use of the MVC system, then I could rent the points and hopefully offset most if not all my Maintenance fees. I don't want to let go of all of these just yet, until the dust settles on my husband's illness - which they have said he may live only a few more years, and quite frankly, I don't know what my life will be like 1, 5 or 10 years down the road, but I know I won't be traveling at all really in the short term. But 10 years from now, who knows, I may be remarried, and want to travel again, so I would like to keep my options open. Whatever Marriott is going to do, I wish they would just get it over with already and tell us. This multiple years of suspense is total BS.


I would think that any Vistana unit that is “enrolled” fully in the vistana network would be eligible to convert. So any unit that was a developer purchase or any unit that was brought back into the network with a qualified purchase. Think of it this way, any unit that is eligible to be converted to bonvoy points is considered enrolled and fully in the vistana network. As long as the unit can be converted to bonvoy points then it can be eligible to be exchanged in the DC exchange. Yes, I know bonvoy point conversion has nothing to do with timeshares, but it can be a way to flag eligible ownerships for the conversion. Marriott could offer one time fees to bring a unit back into the system however I don’t see them doing that. I see them continuing with selling point packages to enroll resale units. So while you can continue to use the VSN today and tomorrow, expect more competition for units or less and less inventory in the VSN. I have zero desire to book Marriott units via DC points so I can’t see myself buying anymore units than I already have. There will be plenty of people like myself who will cut down what they own when the VSN is useless because they squeezed all of the inventory out of it. I may keep one or two and play the interval exchange and getaway game. That will be around for the long haul since they have to offer quality inventory to their other members in interval.


----------



## Sicnarf

alexadeparis said:


> The 28 and 32 numbers have been thrown around quite a bit, so I guess what I question, not being super familiar with Marriott points-based timeshares (I used to own a non enrolled week), is are those values realistic for a Marriott equivalent unit? And if they are, would the FLEX really be the only product allowed to access MVC, or is it just that the product would be the only one auto -enrolled while the rest of us unwashed Starwooders have to pay to play? If I have to pay 6 separate enrollment fees, one per unit, regardless of status of resale or retail, that would probably NOT be ok with me, and I would probably downsize some of these, and lose my 4 star elite status. I have been holding on to some of these for a long time waiting to see what Marriott is going to do. If I only had to pay one "kind of high" enrollment fee for my resale to legitimize it, i would be ok with that, too. If I had to pay one modest fee, for all 6, I would do that.
> 
> For me as a personal example: I was told the Westin and Harborside would be the 28 ratio, while Sheratons would be the 32, at the presentation i went to, so:
> WSJ #1 - 125,000 SO = 4464 MVC Points  @ 28:1
> WSJ #2 - 125,000 SO = 4464 MVC Points @ 28:1 EVEN 2232 annualized
> HRA - 148,100 SO = 5289 MVC Points @ 28:1 (hopefully)
> SVV - 81,000 SO = 2531 MVC Points @ 32:1   EVEN 1265 annualized (although this is a resale right now and not qualified)
> SVR #1 81,000 SO = 2531 MVC Points @ 32:1 EVEN 1265 annualized
> SVR #2 81,000 SO = 2531 MVC Points @ 32:1 EVEN 1265 annualized
> 
> So brings me to roughly 14,500 qualified MVC points a year (if we assume resales are out of the picture), rounded down. So that puts me where on the Marriott status level?  Given my husband's illness, I would love to be able to make full use of the MVC system, then I could rent the points and hopefully offset most if not all my Maintenance fees. I don't want to let go of all of these just yet, until the dust settles on my husband's illness - which they have said he may live only a few more years, and quite frankly, I don't know what my life will be like 1, 5 or 10 years down the road, but I know I won't be traveling at all really in the short term. But 10 years from now, who knows, I may be remarried, and want to travel again, so I would like to keep my options open. Whatever Marriott is going to do, I wish they would just get it over with already and tell us. This multiple years of suspense is total BS.


You would be MVC Presidential elite level.  And I was told no enrollment fee for authorized weeks or flex points.


----------



## dioxide45

Sicnarf said:


> You would be MVC Presidential elite level.  And I was told no enrollment fee for authorized weeks or flex points.


The big question is, if there is no enrollment fee, how does Marriott Vacations Worldwide make back their $4.7 billion investment on ILG.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

KACTravels said:


> Thank you for posting this.  I am curious what your interpretation is of "2 options which will be expiring shortly" or why your account was "marked for "Special Review".  I know it is all speculation until finalized, but this seems the most indicative that we are getting close to the actual merger.  Are you going to meet with them virtually?


Unfortunately we will never know as I have no intention of following up. I may live to regret that decision, but I doubt it!


----------



## SueDonJ

Sicnarf said:


> You would be MVC Presidential elite level.  And I was told no enrollment fee for authorized weeks or flex points.



Considering that there is still an enrollment fee for eligible Marriott Weeks (which can be waived with certain incentives,) I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be an enrollment fee for eligible Starwood/Vistana intervals (assuming Destination Club integration is the announced integration mechanism.)


----------



## alexadeparis

SueDonJ said:


> Considering that there is still an enrollment fee for eligible Marriott Weeks (which can be waived with certain incentives,) I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be an enrollment fee for eligible Starwood/Vistana intervals (assuming Destination Club integration is the announced integration mechanism.)


Well, my thought is since Starwood already had points for many years, that Marriott really shouldn’t charge a fee, since they are just going to convert the currency. Marriott’s weeks product was a totally different (older style) product and they overlaid the points matrix onto it (even with the skim) that provided additional flexibility from what was originally bought, for a fee. Whereas the Starwood units always had an internal points trading system, at least from when I bought in. I feel that if they are truly treating Starwood and Marriott as equivalent systems then they should be able to just translate points amounts with minimal effort on Marriott’s part, and little cost on ours.


----------



## rickandcindy23

cindylou said:


> Thanks everyone for the reminders of what we already knew (mostly), but forget when getting sucked into their sales pitches to authorize our weeks "for only 25K."  TUG to the rescue again.
> 
> We are running away and sending the Encore cancellation document via certified mail. (Damn them they only accept faxes and mail, not email, and I doubt I could get confirmation a fax was received).


That's my middle name (I am also a Cindy Lou) and I am in CO as well.


----------



## CPNY

alexadeparis said:


> Well, my thought is since Starwood already had points for many years, that Marriott really shouldn’t charge a fee, since they are just going to convert the currency. Marriott’s weeks product was a totally different (older style) product and they overlaid the points matrix onto it (even with the skim) that provided additional flexibility from what was originally bought, for a fee. Whereas the Starwood units always had an internal points trading system, at least from when I bought in. I feel that if they are truly treating Starwood and Marriott as equivalent systems then they should be able to just translate points amounts with minimal effort on Marriott’s part, and little cost on ours.


I think most Marriott owners will tell you that the systems aren’t equivalent. They would be correct, the vistana system has been a much better system. The flexibility in ownership has been amazing and the reason why most vistana owners want nothing changed.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Every post seems very speculative.  I wonder if the salespeople will even know what they are selling, when the time comes.  I was pretty leery when listening to the salespeople a year ago at Westin on Maui.  Still no real news that I have seen.


----------



## daviator

rickandcindy23 said:


> Every post seems very speculative.  I wonder if the salespeople will even know what they are selling, when the time comes.  I was pretty leery when listening to the salespeople a year ago at Westin on Maui.  Still no real news that I have seen.


That's no surprise, since every post is just speculating on what might happen.  Nobody, including Vistana sales people, know all the details (well, folks at MVCI know, but I don't think they've released all those details, even internally.)  Sales people have heard rumors and maybe they've been told some things in very broad terms, but there's lots of guessing and speculating and presuming going on.  As you well know!

I am surprised at how many people seem to be making decisions involving real money, today, based on rumors and speculation and what I assume to be false fear.  I just don't buy into the idea that if you buy something today based on rumors, you'll get something better than you'll be able to get once the program changes are revealed.


----------



## dioxide45

rickandcindy23 said:


> Every post seems very speculative.  I wonder if the salespeople will even know what they are selling, when the time comes.  I was pretty leery when listening to the salespeople a year ago at Westin on Maui.  Still no real news that I have seen.


It is all speculation and I also speculate that the sales people get their information for their presentations from these threads on TUG.


----------



## Mowogo

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott can certainly change VSN unilaterally, but they will want to make it look like nothing is changing for owners that don't opt for the new program. Also that you can continue to do what you do today. This looks better for PR and also shields them from lawsuit, regardless if they are legally in the right by changing VSN in such a drastic way. Lawsuits are expensive, even when you can win.


The true changes to VSN would come more from inventory that trades in VSN will begin a slow death with the inventory shifting to trading in the new program because owners are purchasing that product and voluntary resales leaving the network.  Nothing changes with the VSN program and it still exists for Mandatory owners, but the inventory trading within is likely to decline over time.  That is how they get away with doing it and being able to survive the lawsuits.


----------



## needvaca

Mowogo said:


> The true changes to VSN would come more from inventory that trades in VSN will begin a slow death with the inventory shifting to trading in the new program because owners are purchasing that product and voluntary resales leaving the network.  Nothing changes with the VSN program and it still exists for Mandatory owners, but the inventory trading within is likely to decline over time.  That is how they get away with doing it and being able to survive the lawsuits.


Meh.  They've been claiming this since they introduced Sheraton Flex in 2015, and it's false.  I own multiple mandatory units and I've seen no decline at all in inventory in any of the properties over the last 7 years.  I'm always able to reserve at my home resorts at 12 months and I've gotten great reservations in Hawaii, St. John and Bahamas at 8 months.  I'd make a bet nothing will change for at least the next 5-10 years.  I'm sticking with my mandatory ownerships until I see concrete proof that I can't get the reservations I want.
As we all know, salespeople lie.


----------



## Mowogo

needvaca said:


> Meh.  They've been claiming this since they introduced Sheraton Flex in 2015, and it's false.  I own multiple mandatory units and I've seen no decline at all in inventory in any of the properties over the last 7 years.  I'm always able to reserve at my home resorts at 12 months and I've gotten great reservations in Hawaii, St. John and Bahamas at 8 months.  I'd make a bet nothing will change for at least the next 5-10 years.  I'm sticking with my mandatory ownerships until I see concrete proof that I can't get the reservations I want.
> As we all know, salespeople lie.


Flex never really impacted what trades in VSN, as that is still VSN inventory.  They try to scare you that the weeks are hard to book for home reservations, and this is really the first impact where inventory that would have traded within VSN disappears from that network because it is circulating in Destination Club.  We have to remember that a lot of owners aren't in the crowd to maximize ownership and tend to go along with what the sales staff guides them toward.  I could definitely see a lot of retail owners doing whatever opt in is necessary to change to trading in the new system over VSN because it gives access to more resorts.  And even at 32:1, I can see some legitimate arguments for flex owners jumping at any sort of enrollment opportunity under $2000.  It is something that I see as stealth, as owners go and get their orientation on the new program, then they start looking at those trades.  Remember, people on here are the crowd to maximize ownership, but the entire timeshare business model depends on the average person who sees them as a good idea purchasing from the developer.  If these owners are no longer trading through VSN primarily, that is a significant amount of inventory that is no longer in VSN.


----------



## daviator

Mowogo said:


> Flex never really impacted what trades in VSN, as that is still VSN inventory.  They try to scare you that the weeks are hard to book for home reservations, and this is really the first impact where inventory that would have traded within VSN disappears from that network because it is circulating in Destination Club.  We have to remember that a lot of owners aren't in the crowd to maximize ownership and tend to go along with what the sales staff guides them toward.  I could definitely see a lot of retail owners doing whatever opt in is necessary to change to trading in the new system over VSN because it gives access to more resorts.  And even at 32:1, I can see some legitimate arguments for flex owners jumping at any sort of enrollment opportunity under $2000.  It is something that I see as stealth, as owners go and get their orientation on the new program, then they start looking at those trades.  Remember, people on here are the crowd to maximize ownership, but the entire timeshare business model depends on the average person who sees them as a good idea purchasing from the developer.  If these owners are no longer trading through VSN primarily, that is a significant amount of inventory that is no longer in VSN.


OK, but am I wrong in thinking that every week that no longer trades in VSN is also an owner that is no longer competing for inventory in VSN?  It seems to me that the perceived availability of inventory for folks in VSN doesn't change unless the numbers get really, really low.

Let's pull some numbers out of the air.  Let's say there are 10 resorts with 400 rooms per resort.  10x400x50 (weeks) = 200,000 weeks in VSN, with 200,000 week owners competing to use those weeks in the network.

Now let's say that half those weeks enroll in some new system and are no longer traded in VSN.  So now you've got 100,000 weeks in VSN, but only 100,000 week owners vying for those weeks.  Perceived availability stays exactly the same.  The numbers would have to get really, really low before VSN owners/users noticed any difference.

Am I wrong about that?


----------



## YYJMSP

daviator said:


> Am I wrong about that?



that's how it should work.  the issue is how does VSE choose which specific week to pull out of VSN inventory.

they could spread them evenly across the season, which would not have as much visible impact on the remaining owners until the bucket is small.

or at the other extreme, they could pull all the high demand weeks out first (to make it more exciting for "DC" members), which would be more quickly noticeable to the remaining owners before the bucket got small enough that the other scenario (not enough weeks left) became a problem

inventory management is a black box to owners, so we have no idea what happens

same is true for weeks converted to Bonvoy points or exchanged into Interval.  so, I'm somewhat hopeful the impact will be similar and largely unnoticed at 12mos and 8mos out.  it will likely be more felt by those who wait to book...


----------



## daviator

YYJMSP said:


> that's how it should work.  the issue is how does VSE choose which specific week to pull out of VSN inventory.
> 
> they could spread them evenly across the season, which would not have as much visible impact on the remaining owners until the bucket is small.
> 
> or at the other extreme, they could pull all the high demand weeks out first (to make it more exciting for "DC" members), which would be more quickly noticeable to the remaining owners before the bucket got small enough that the other scenario (not enough weeks left) became a problem
> 
> inventory management is a black box to owners, so we have no idea what happens
> 
> same is true for weeks converted to Bonvoy points or exchanged into Interval.  so, I'm somewhat hopeful the impact will be similar and largely unnoticed at 12mos and 8mos out.  it will likely be more felt by those who wait to book...


Hmm, I am thinking they would have to pull the actual weeks traded into the new system by owners.  All of us with deeded weeks actually do own a specific unit and week in the year (look at your deed) – it's just that under the VSN program, you are never limited to reserving just that week or just that unit, so they never talk about it.  I'd have to go back and look at my deeds to see what weeks I actually own.  Oh, actually you can see if you go to the Vistana dashboard and select "What I Own."

So at WKORV, I own Week 25, Villa 321109.  If I traded into this new program (however that might work) I would presume that my Week 25 is what would go into that pool.  (And yay, Week 25 probably isn't a bad one to own if VSN ever went away, lol.  End of June or so.)

So presuming that the assignment of actual week numbers to deeded owners is basically random, they should get a relatively random selection of weeks going into the new pool.  Some good, some bad, some meh.

Now if they are able to cherry pick whatever weeks they want, they could really screw the existing owners who don't elect into the new program.  But I'm not sure it is in their interest to piss off a bunch of their long-time owners.


----------



## YYJMSP

daviator said:


> So at WKORV, I own Week 25, Villa 321109.  If I traded into this new program (however that might work) I would presume that my Week 25 is what would go into that pool.  (And yay, Week 25 probably isn't a bad one to own if VSN ever went away, lol.  End of June or so.)



unless you paid extra to fix your week and unit, you bought a floating week unit for a specific unit size with a specific view category in a specific season -- those values on your deed are only for accounting purposes, so that they didn't sell more unit weeks than exist.

I believe there is some verbiage in the paperwork that says something along those lines.

my gut says it will be a nightmare if specific week/units get transferred around.  I think they will just do first-come first-served within the season, just keeping count of how many total weeks are in each inventory.  similar to what is probably already happening with the various buckets...


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## Mowogo

YYJMSP said:


> unless you paid extra to fix your week and unit, you bought a floating week unit for a specific unit size with a specific view category in a specific season -- those values on your deed are only for accounting purposes, so that they didn't sell more unit weeks than exist.
> 
> I believe there is some verbiage in the paperwork that says something along those lines.
> 
> my gut says it will be a nightmare if specific week/units get transferred around.  I think they will just do first-come first-served within the season, just keeping count of how many total weeks are in each inventory.  similar to what is probably already happening with the various buckets...


And specifically says that with floating weeks Vistana has the right to use any week within the season to exchange.  Really gives them the right where there are opportunities for some hostile interpretations should someone in management decide to actively try and steer inventory if they so wished.  Current management could be benevolent, but who is to say 2 years from now a new person in inventory management decides to get hostile to legacy VSN to improve access for the new DC.


----------



## daviator

YYJMSP said:


> unless you paid extra to fix your week and unit, you bought a floating week unit for a specific unit size with a specific view category in a specific season -- those values on your deed are only for accounting purposes, so that they didn't sell more unit weeks than exist.
> 
> I believe there is some verbiage in the paperwork that says something along those lines.
> 
> my gut says it will be a nightmare if specific week/units get transferred around.  I think they will just do first-come first-served within the season, just keeping count of how many total weeks are in each inventory.  similar to what is probably already happening with the various buckets...


Yes, I know they are all treated as floating weeks (with the exception of Christmas week which was sold as a fixed "event week.")  But down at the county recorder's office, people with deeded weeks own the unit and week specified on their deed.  If Vistana ever went belly-up, we'd probably own those specified units and weeks.  But you are correct that it's also all controlled by the contracts, so perhaps they have the right to play games with the inventory as you suggest.

I think, though, that if they were to do so, they'd be angering many of their best customers, and the ones who pay those maintenance fees year after year without complaint.  It seems like a pretty foolish thing to do, and they'd be opening themselves up to litigation.  Maybe they'd prevail, who knows.  But I'm hopeful that we won't have to find out.

I think it's fine for them to introduce a new game and invite owners to play it if they choose to.  But I don't think they should be able to change the rules of the game we bought into, at least not in a way that disadvantages us.  Of course, they've already been doing so for years, a little bit at a time.


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## YYJMSP

I suspect the answer will be you did not buy "Week 25, Villa 321109", you bought a 2BR OV L/O floating in weeks 1-50.  anything else was just for inventory control purposes, since you did not buy a fixed week product.

otherwise, there will be 25 owners per unit week angry at the lessor desirable week they were allocated vs the 25 owners per unit week pleasantly surprised they own desirable weeks if it really did tie back to the recorded week and unit.  

would you be happy if you got week 25 second floor in building 3 as your default booking every year, which you then had to let go of and hope someone else let go of the week (and building and floor) that you really wanted?  that's how some of the fixed-float deeds work -- I get up to 10mos in advance to let go of my fixed unit and hope I can float to something else I actually want, and if I didn't float it at exactly 12mos, I risk what I want being snatched up.


----------



## daviator

YYJMSP said:


> I suspect the answer will be you did not buy "Week 25, Villa 321109", you bought a 2BR OV L/O floating in weeks 1-50.  anything else was just for inventory control purposes, since you did not buy a fixed week product.
> 
> otherwise, there will be 25 owners per unit week angry at the lessor desirable week they were allocated vs the 25 owners per unit week pleasantly surprised they own desirable weeks if it really did tie back to the recorded week and unit.
> 
> would you be happy if you got week 25 second floor in building 3 as your default booking every year, which you then had to let go of and hope someone else let go of the week (and building and floor) that you really wanted?  that's how some of the fixed-float deeds work -- I get up to 10mos in advance to let go of my fixed unit and hope I can float to something else I actually want, and if I didn't float it at exactly 12mos, I risk what I want being snatched up.


I don't think we disagree, I think we are just talking about different things.

We all actually own a specific unit and week (well, those of us with deeded weeks.)  What we actually own is recorded in the county records.  But we have rights to use a floating week, not our specific week and unit, and it's all specified in the contract with SVO/Vistana.  Those contracts are recorded too, in most instances.  I think the only instance in which we would revert to having access only to our specified unit and week would be if Vistana went bankrupt and nobody bought the business assets, rendering the contracts null and void.  You don't have a contract if one party is dead and there is no successor.  I think that's about as unlikely a scenario as I can imagine.  It's not going to happen.

But when we talk about people trading their week into a new Marriott program, I'm still unclear on whether MVW can pick and choose the specific weeks they want, whether they have to use the specified weeks from the deeds, whether they have to pick randomly, or what.  And even if they CAN pick and choose, will they?  Certainly if they suck all of the desirable weeks out of all of the properties, it might incentivize people to join the new program, but it's also going to make a lot of people really angry.  I don't know about you, but I would not give more money to a company I was angry with, nor would I accept being bullied into it.  So I think they'd be playing a very risky game if they do that.  Like I said, pissing off your core market would be an interesting business tactic.

It may become even more important to book as early as possible, and it may indeed become harder to book outside of your home resort period.  I guess we will find out.


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## Mowogo

daviator said:


> But when we talk about people trading their week into a new Marriott program, I'm still unclear on whether MVW can pick and choose the specific weeks they want, whether they have to use the specified weeks from the deeds, whether they have to pick randomly, or what.  And even if they CAN pick and choose, will they?  Certainly if they suck all of the desirable weeks out of all of the properties, it might incentivize people to join the new program, but it's also going to make a lot of people really angry.  I don't know about you, but I would not give more money to a company I was angry with, nor would I accept being bullied into it.  So I think they'd be playing a very risky game if they do that.  Like I said, pissing off your core market would be an interesting business tactic.


The documentation states that Vistana can deposit any week within season when an exchange deposit is made. That discomfort would be by design to try and get some of the hold outs to upgrade and join because remember that timeshare sales rely on emotions.  They normally try to sell through fear, but when coordinated they can sell through anger through promoting the belief that the reason that it has gotten harder to exchange through VSN is because so many of the VSN owners exchange in the new program.  And if Flex is a low to no cost switch to exchange into the new program then you could start seeing some inventory issues.


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## SunanFunGirl

We are currently at SVV in Orlando and did our owner update yesterday. Our salesperson told us Marriott is introducing the "playground" the end of Q2.  He stated those that own MVC will then have access to all properties (Vistana etc.) with the exception of the newly acquired Hyatt properties.  He then went on to say that if we stick with our mandatory ownership, our inventory will likely continue to be filtered out and we will be stuck (his words) with the one specific week noted on our deed. He also said that is all Marriott legally owes us and said don't expect anything else. Is this really where things are headed with this merger or is this a scare tactic to purchase more?


----------



## DanCali

SunanFunGirl said:


> ...He then went on to say that if we stick with our mandatory ownership, our inventory will likely continue to be filtered out and we will be stuck (his words) with the one specific week noted on our deed. He also said that is all Marriott legally owes us and said don't expect anything else. Is this really where things are headed with this merger or is this a scare tactic to purchase more?




It is true that all they legally owe you is what you bought. But the truth was somewhat stretched.... Most Vistana owners did not buy fixed week and the week on the deed was assigned pretty much at random. Most owners bought a week in a season, and this is what would be on a representative purchase agreement.





As for exchanges via Vistana, I'm pretty sure the purchase documents also say that the ownership is part of a larger exchange network but also that exchange availability cannot be guaranteed in the future.

But these are old sales scare tactics intended to cause fear and desire for the convenient "solution" that typically involves spending "only" $20K-$40K to buy the new shiny object. Inventory is not just "filtered out"... you can say the same thing about II. If Interval was a great exchange alternative, then there would be no inventory in Vistana - that was not the case. If Marriott will be such a great exchange alternative, it could be that owners who might otherwise trade in Vistana would go through Marriott thus taking that inventory out of Vistana. But they need to make it compelling for a sufficiently large number of owners for there to be a noticeable impact. It won't happen overnight, if ever.


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> Yes, I know they are all treated as floating weeks (with the exception of Christmas week which was sold as a fixed "event week.")  But down at the county recorder's office, people with deeded weeks own the unit and week specified on their deed.  If Vistana ever went belly-up, we'd probably own those specified units and weeks.  But you are correct that it's also all controlled by the contracts, so perhaps they have the right to play games with the inventory as you suggest.
> 
> I think, though, that if they were to do so, they'd be angering many of their best customers, and the ones who pay those maintenance fees year after year without complaint.  It seems like a pretty foolish thing to do, and they'd be opening themselves up to litigation.  Maybe they'd prevail, who knows.  But I'm hopeful that we won't have to find out.
> 
> I think it's fine for them to introduce a new game and invite owners to play it if they choose to.  But I don't think they should be able to change the rules of the game we bought into, at least not in a way that disadvantages us.  Of course, they've already been doing so for years, a little bit at a time.


The only way it would become only week 25 would be if the resort ceased being a timeshare and you became a joint tenant with all the other 51 other owners of the unit. That would only happen at sunset of the resort and in that case the property ends up being sold and proceeds distributed to all the owners. If Vistana goes belly up, it is up to the BOD to find a new management company to manage the resort in the way it is laid out in the CC&R documents for the condominium which outline the floating week system.


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## felixhausdorf

dioxide45 said:


> The only way it would become only week 25 would be if the resort ceased being a timeshare and you became a joint tenant with all the other 51 other owners of the unit. That would only happen at sunset of the resort and in that case the property ends up being sold and proceeds distributed to all the owners. If Vistana goes belly up, it is up to the BOD to find a new management company to manage the resort in the way it is laid out in the CC&R documents for the condominium which outline the floating week system.


I took a look at What I own" on the Vistana website. (I have a "floating" week at KOR and one at WDW.) Both say "Week 50". I'm guessing they put that for all floating weeks, otherwis it would be a weird coincidence?


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## dioxide45

felixhausdorf said:


> I took a look at What I own" on the Vistana website. (I have a "floating" week at KOR and one at WDW.) Both say "Week 50". I'm guessing they put that for all floating weeks, otherwis it would be a weird coincidence?


What matters is what is on the deed and in the resort CCR documents. That is where the floating system is defined.


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## jabberwocky

felixhausdorf said:


> I took a look at What I own" on the Vistana website. (I have a "floating" week at KOR and one at WDW.) Both say "Week 50". I'm guessing they put that for all floating weeks, otherwis it would be a weird coincidence?


It’s a rare occurrence - but yes it’s just coincidence that they are both week 50 (unless you had set out to find deeds with those specific week numbers - which I think unlikely).


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## CPNY

SunanFunGirl said:


> We are currently at SVV in Orlando and did our owner update yesterday. Our salesperson told us Marriott is introducing the "playground" the end of Q2.  He stated those that own MVC will then have access to all properties (Vistana etc.) with the exception of the newly acquired Hyatt properties.  He then went on to say that if we stick with our mandatory ownership, our inventory will likely continue to be filtered out and we will be stuck (his words) with the one specific week noted on our deed. He also said that is all Marriott legally owes us and said don't expect anything else. Is this really where things are headed with this merger or is this a scare tactic to purchase more?


“Marriott snobs” won’t book Vistana resorts. They feel Marriott is far superior to Westin and Sheraton properties.


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## mjm1

CPNY said:


> “Marriott snobs” won’t book Vistana resorts. They feel Marriott is far superior to Westin and Sheraton properties.



And I have heard vice-versa. We own both and think both systems have great resorts. Whether we are able to trade internally between them or not we will enjoy what we have. That said, I do look forward to seeing what they roll out.

Best regards.

Mike


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## CPNY

mjm1 said:


> And I have heard vice-versa. We own both and think both systems have great resorts. Whether we are able to trade internally between them or not we will enjoy what we have. That said, I do look forward to seeing what they roll out.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike


I think Marriott does have some excellent properties as well. My comment was written in jest, as I’ve heard Marriott sales reps refer to Marriott owners as “proud Marriott snobs”.


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## Ron00

Own an enrolled Marriott deeded week and WKORV.  Just returned from Nanea and received the offer to buy something for $25k, and enroll our WKORV week.  Noted that was more than we paid for both our weeks, and to enroll the Marriott.  Folks are forgetting the first rule of timeshare, "Buy Resale".  If you're interested in the Marriott program, then take the $25k and buy DC points resale.


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## DanCali

Ron00 said:


> Own an enrolled Marriott deeded week and WKORV.  Just returned from Nanea and received the offer to buy something for $25k, and enroll our WKORV week.  Noted that was more than we paid for both our weeks, and to enroll the Marriott.  Folks are forgetting the first rule of timeshare, "Buy Resale".  If you're interested in the Marriott program, then take the $25k and buy DC points resale.




Interesting that they asked for $25K because the minimum to enroll 1 week is $10K.

Obviously $10K to just retro a single mandatory week is not necessarily something one needs to do, but IF (speculative) that $10K expense also allowed you to use that WKORV as part of the Marriott DC club once new system announced would you feel differently about it, knowing that doing it after the fact by buying Marriott DC points will probably cost a lot more?


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## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> Interesting that they asked for $25K because the minimum to enroll 1 week is $10K.
> 
> Obviously $10K to just retro a single mandatory week is not necessarily something one needs to do, but IF (speculative) that $10K expense also allowed you to use that WKORV as part of the Marriott DC club once new system announced would you feel differently about it, knowing that doing it after the fact by buying Marriott DC points will probably cost a lot more?


For some reason I recall the requirement to *requalify* a week being higher in Hawaii. Perhaps that was when they still mainly sold weeks. I don't know if they are still selling Nanea HomeOptions or just Westin Flex at Nanea now.


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## Ron00

$25k was for purchase, but I don't recall if it was Nanea HO or Westin Flex.  "Requalify" was thrown in with purchase.  When Marriott introduced DC points, we could enroll our resale week for a fixed fee (I think about $1500-$200k).  We didn't do it then, and every owner update after that they would add in the complimentary enrollment with the purchase of points.  We kept refusing, until they offered it in conjunction with an Encore package, which we accepted.


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## daviator

Over in the Marriott forum, multiple people are reporting that the announcement of the new changes/overlay system/whatever will be announced on 3/14 and will become effective in late June.  As always, I'll believe it when I read it in a communication from MVW, but that's sounding more plausible.


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## klpenny

Hi all!  We need some help.  We currently own 1 bedroom at Harborside Atlantis every other year (44,000 Star Options), and a 2 Bedroom yearly at Vistana Villages Orlando (81,000 options).  We went to an owners update in Boston last weekend, and they really made it seem we should upgrade to what we thought was Marriott Vacation Club, but was Sheraton Flex at 60,000 Star Options.  We traded in our Vistana Villages 2 Bedroom for about $10,000 towards it and still had to pay an upgrade fee of $14,000.  We also got a bunch of Marriott Bonvoy Points.  Here is my question.  I have been reading the feeds on this site.  We did get in writing from the salesperson, that we would be in the Marriott Vacation Club ownership program by the end of July.  He said a big announcement is coming out this month, and as of 3/15 they will no longer be doing upgrades.  It appears from what he said that the Flex point accounts (Sheraton, Westin) will be merging with the Flex point accounts at Marriott, but not the deeded properties.  He did say if we had a flex program, our Harborside Atlantis property would be allowed to participate in it, only because we have a flex program.  We are thinking of cancelling.  Is it worth it to get the flexibility of the new combined Flex program?  He said we would have access to the 90 or so Marriott Vacation Clubs under our 60,000 points, though I imagine they would buy a lot less than than the 81,000 points we had, and that through the Interval exchange, which Marriott has bough Interval and now there will be a separate Interval program for this new Marriott Flex program which the Sheraton and Vistana Flex owners will be a part of.  Through this new program you would have more priority access to Interval and now use points to swap.  He says the value of the 60,000 points would buy about twice as much in this new Interval program.  He showed us screen prints. The bottom line is we are very torn.  We don't want to shell out this money for what appears to be less options, but we do want to be in this new system rolling out I believe this month or next, according to him as it offers a lot more flexibility.  We didn't get our contract until Wednesday last week, but are coming up to the 10 day cancellation period Thoughts? Help!


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## vacationtime1

I am very curious about what the salesperson put in writing.  Was it the salesperson or a manager?  What exactly did they guarantee?

I have not seen any written promises about what happens to Flex in the Marriott/Vistana integration; this is a first.


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## klpenny

H


vacationtime1 said:


> I am very curious about what the salesperson put in writing.  Was it the salesperson or a manager?  What exactly did they guarantee?
> 
> I have not seen any written promises about what happens to Flex in the Marriott/Vistana integration; this is a first.


He was a manager.  He did not put it into contract.  When we got home we thought we bought into Marriott, but when we got our documents a few days later, it said Sheraton Flex.  He signed some things stating we would have that access.  Not sure it is binding in court, but it is in writing both in an email from him and on a signed document from him saying we would be in the Marriott Vacation club by July 2022.  However, I feel we should have received 81,000 Home options from what I have read from everyone, and not 60,000.  I sent him an email saying we were thinking of cancelling unless we got the 81,000.


----------



## dioxide45

klpenny said:


> Hi all!  We need some help.  We currently own 1 bedroom at Harborside Atlantis every other year (44,000 Star Options), and a 2 Bedroom yearly at Vistana Villages Orlando (81,000 options).  We went to an owners update in Boston last weekend, and they really made it seem we should upgrade to what we thought was Marriott Vacation Club, but was Sheraton Flex at 60,000 Star Options.  We traded in our Vistana Villages 2 Bedroom for about $10,000 towards it and still had to pay an upgrade fee of $14,000.  We also got a bunch of Marriott Bonvoy Points.  Here is my question.  I have been reading the feeds on this site.  We did get in writing from the salesperson, that we would be in the Marriott Vacation Club ownership program by the end of July.  He said a big announcement is coming out this month, and as of 3/15 they will no longer be doing upgrades.  It appears from what he said that the Flex point accounts (Sheraton, Westin) will be merging with the Flex point accounts at Marriott, but not the deeded properties.  He did say if we had a flex program, our Harborside Atlantis property would be allowed to participate in it, only because we have a flex program.  We are thinking of cancelling.  Is it worth it to get the flexibility of the new combined Flex program?  He said we would have access to the 90 or so Marriott Vacation Clubs under our 60,000 points, though I imagine they would buy a lot less than than the 81,000 points we had, and that through the Interval exchange, which Marriott has bough Interval and now there will be a separate Interval program for this new Marriott Flex program which the Sheraton and Vistana Flex owners will be a part of.  Through this new program you would have more priority access to Interval and now use points to swap.  He says the value of the 60,000 points would buy about twice as much in this new Interval program.  He showed us screen prints. The bottom line is we are very torn.  We don't want to shell out this money for what appears to be less options, but we do want to be in this new system rolling out I believe this month or next, according to him as it offers a lot more flexibility.  We didn't get our contract until Wednesday last week, but are coming up to the 10 day cancellation period Thoughts? Help!


How many new StarOptions/HomeOptions did you get? It sounds like you went from 125,000 (81,000+44,000) down to only 104,000 (60,000+44,000). All for the privilege of handing over $14,000?


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## klpenny

Y


dioxide45 said:


> How many new StarOptions/HomeOptions did you get? It sounds like you went from 81,000+44,000 down to only 60,000+44,000. All for the privilege of handing over $14,000?


You are correct.  We kept Harborside and the 44,000 and lost the 81,000 down to 60,000 with more flexibility.  I do believe the flex programs are merging starting by the end of this month.  I see the value in it, but think to spend $14,000 to go down to 60,000 is not worth it to me.  We gain increased flexibility in new program as I do think the flexes are merging and perhaps not the deeded properties yet.  We would be giving that up for now, but I feel from what everyone else wrote we should have at least gotten more home options.


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## dioxide45

klpenny said:


> You are correct.  We kept Harborside and the 44,000 and lost the 81,000 down to 60,000 with more flexibility.  I do believe the flex programs are merging starting by the end of this month.  I see the value in it, but think to spend $14,000 to go down to 60,000 is not worth it to me.  We gain increased flexibility in new program as I do think the flexes are merging and perhaps not the deeded properties yet.  We would be giving that up for now, but I feel from what everyone else wrote we should have at least gotten more home options.


That sounds like a bad deal all around. You get less time for something not guaranteed. Their written stuff is probably only worth the paper it is written on. It is quite possible that Marriott will allow owners to enroll for a fee down the road. We don't know. What they said could all be very true, half true or all lies. We don't know if upgrades will or won't be available in the future, if equity will be allowed. The sales reps have about the same amount of details that we do. They are just making stuff up as they go to make a sale.

You are now the second person to come along and say though got fewer points out of the deal while paying money to get in. Since you already had StarOptions with your HRA and SVV weeks, you already had 125,000 points that could be used at 8 months to book any Vistana property. You didn't buy any real flexibility. The new 60,000 Sheraton Flex can be used at the 12 month mark to book any of the Sheraton inventory in the Flex, but not Westin inventory until 8 months. You don't gain a lot going from SVV StarOptions to Sheraton Flex unless you want to go to Sheraton Kauai in peak season or perhaps certain ski weeks in Colorado. Pretty much all other Sheraton inventory is available at 8 months with regular StarOptions.

The salesperson should really be ashamed of themselves for selling you the deal that they did. RESCIND TODAY! Never buy based on future promises. Buy on what you are guaranteed today.


----------



## klpenny

dioxide45 said:


> That sounds like a bad deal all around. You get less time for something not guaranteed. Their written stuff is probably only worth the paper it is written on. It is quite possible that Marriott will allow owners to enroll for a fee down the road. We don't know. What they said could all be very true, half true or all lies. We don't know if upgrades will or won't be available in the future, if equity will be allowed. The sales reps have about the same amount of details that we do. They are just making stuff up as they go to make a sale.
> 
> You are now the second person to come along and say though got fewer points out of the deal while paying money to get in. Since you already had StarOptions with your HRA and SVV weeks, you already had 125,000 points that could be used at 8 months to book any Vistana property. You didn't buy any real flexibility. The new 60,000 Sheraton Flex can be used at the 12 month mark to book any of the Sheraton inventory in the Flex, but not Westin inventory until 8 months. You don't gain a lot going from SVV StarOptions to Sheraton Flex unless you want to go to Sheraton Kauai in peak season or perhaps certain ski weeks in Colorado. Pretty much all other Sheraton inventory is available at 8 months with regular StarOptions.
> 
> The salesperson should really be ashamed of themselves for selling you the deal that they did. RESCIND TODAY! Never buy based on future promises. Buy on what you are guaranteed today.


Thanks for the feedback.  I do think we will have access to the Marriott timeshare with this and otherwise Sheraton Flex is not a good option.   But less points?  Doesn't seem fair to me.  We are thinking of definitely cancelling.  Do we just send a certified letter to the address it says to in the contract?


----------



## dioxide45

klpenny said:


> Thanks for the feedback.  I do think we will have access to the Marriott timeshare with this and otherwise Sheraton Flex is not a good option.   But less points?  Doesn't seem fair to me.  We are thinking of definitely cancelling.  Do we just send a certified letter to the address it says to in the contract?


Yes, the contract will spell out all the details on where to send your rescission letter. Follow the instructions carefully.


----------



## Red elephant

klpenny said:


> Thanks for the feedback.  I do think we will have access to the Marriott timeshare with this and otherwise Sheraton Flex is not a good option.   But less points?  Doesn't seem fair to me.  We are thinking of definitely cancelling.  Do we just send a certified letter to the address it says to in the contract?


I was told that the required amount of flex options required to book a week at a particular resort is less when using flex points  in interval than when using staroptions in VSN.  Maybe that’s why you got 60,000 instead of 81,000 Sheraton flex points.


----------



## dioxide45

Red elephant said:


> I was told that the required amount of flex options required to book a week at a particular resort is less when using flex points  in interval than when using staroptions in VSN.  Maybe that’s why you got 60,000 instead of 81,000 Sheraton flex points.


That is true for certain resorts and certain times of the year. Of course, trading in interval comes with exchange fees. So you pay $164 to exchange for the benefit of using fewer points. The plan here though sounds like it would be to not go through Interval  International, but using them for Marriott reservations in the future. The $14,000 is to get the ability to use the points to book Marriott.

Trust me, in the future there will be a method to convert your Vistana StarOptions/Weeks to a new system for some amount of money. The offer will be there again in the future. It may not be exactly the same, but they will come up with a method/scheme to get your money.


----------



## klpenny

Red elephant said:


> I was told that the required amount of flex options required to book a week at a particular resort is less when using flex points  in interval than when using staroptions in VSN.  Maybe that’s why you got 60,000 instead of 81,000 Sheraton flex points.


It appears to be.  But it forces us into Interval, and not through our regular points.  It does buy about double the value in Interval.  I saw the screen prints in the system and it appears to be true.  However, my fear with the merger is that the 60,000 won't buy us 
much at the Marriott Vacation Club properties.


----------



## dioxide45

klpenny said:


> It appears to be.  But it forces us into Interval, and not through our regular points.  It does buy about double the value in Interval.  I saw the screen prints in the system and it appears to be true.  However, my fear with the merger is that the 60,000 won't buy us
> much at the Marriott Vacation Club properties.


If prior reports of a 28:1 ratio on Sheraton Flex are true, 60K would get you about 2,150 points in the Marriott system. About enough for an off season week in a 2BR in Orlando.


----------



## klpenny

dioxide45 said:


> If prior reports of a 28:1 ratio on Sheraton Flex are true, 60K would get you about 2,150 points in the Marriott system. About enough for an off season week in a 2BR in Orlando.


Would it get us a 1 bedroom non efficiency any time?


----------



## Ken555

It just boggles the mind that any informed person would knowingly buy from these weasels at this time, unless the buyer is fully informed of the risks and expecting an upside from it (which I can’t imagine will be meaningful, though who knows). 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45

klpenny said:


> Would it get us a 1 bedroom non efficiency any time?


Not necessarily. You can see Marriott points charts here. Realise that using HomeOptions as DC points is not guaranteed and you are only taking their word for it. They are good at sales because they are good at convincing people of things that may or may not be true.


----------



## klpenny

dioxide45 said:


> Not necessarily. You can see Marriott points charts here. Realise that using HomeOptions as DC points is not guaranteed and you are only taking their word for it. They are good at sales because they are good at convincing people of things that may or may not be true.


Thanks for the help.  Appreciate it.


----------



## rickandcindy23

@klpenny RESCIND, do it now while you can.  They are crooks to offer you a lesser product.  I cannot believe how creepy this all is.  

What you need to do, if you want more Mandatory Options is buy Westin Kierland platinum season for that $14,000 and you will still have everything you already have + many more mandatory options.  

This is scandalous.  Seriously horrible.  I think timeshare salespeople are scum.


----------



## byeloe

I am not sure what kind of/ if any access to Marriott you will get with this.
As it stands now only through Interval.  Which you already had. Definitely rescind and wait to see what the new program looks like.  
There will always be opportunity to buy


klpenny said:


> Thanks for the feedback.  I do think we will have access to the Marriott timeshare with this and otherwise Sheraton Flex is not a good option.   But less points?  Doesn't seem fair to me.  We are thinking of definitely cancelling.  Do we just send a certified letter to the address it says to in the contract?


----------



## SGould

I talked to a corporate sales person awhile back.  I currently owns 81k of annual flex and annual 2 bed IV at WKORN.  I told her the only thing I would be interested in is ocean front Maui.  She told me that they will be adding ocean front to flex and offered to sell 95.7k flex options.  I didn’t feel like parting with $36k so declined.  

She also said Flex plays better with Marriott.  I asked her if my WKORN would be able to trade into Marriott she said yes.  Not sure why flex was easier and she couldn’t tell me so another reason not to hand over any $$.


----------



## DanCali

SGould said:


> She also said Flex plays better with Marriott.  I asked her if my WKORN would be able to trade into Marriott she said yes.  Not sure why flex was easier and she couldn’t tell me so another reason not to hand over any $$.




Is your WKORVN resale or developer purchase?


----------



## tstiv1996

This may sound obvious or silly especially given we know nothing in stone, but reading all this makes me feel like my resent mandatory resale purchase at SVV will hold a lot less value. I guess I don’t have a problem competing with all the Marriott folks, I feel like things will spread out. But I’m just afraid my StarOptions, once converted will be worth less when considering trading and using at WKORV or something else. Am I understanding the general theme of this thread accurately? Or am I just over thinking?


----------



## SGould

DanCali said:


> Is your WKORVN resale or developer purchase?


It was a developer purchase.


----------



## dioxide45

tstiv1996 said:


> This may sound obvious or silly especially given we know nothing in stone, but reading all this makes me feel like my resent mandatory resale purchase at SVV will hold a lot less value. I guess I don’t have a problem competing with all the Marriott folks, I feel like things will spread out. But I’m just afraid my StarOptions, once converted will be worth less when considering trading and using at WKORV or something else. Am I understanding the general theme of this thread accurately? Or am I just over thinking?


Your resale week and StarOptions may not even be able to be used to book Marriott weeks. We don't know how it will work. Us resale folks may still have to just continue to use StarOptions in VSN. The issue may be how Marriott values weeks and StarOptions. If they allocate points on the week level, people with Hawaii weeks may be more likely to use Marriott points than their StarOptions, but people with high season Kierland weeks may not convert and just continue using StarOptions. All based on speculation of course.


----------



## TravelTime

tstiv1996 said:


> This may sound obvious or silly especially given we know nothing in stone, but reading all this makes me feel like my resent mandatory resale purchase at SVV will hold a lot less value. I guess I don’t have a problem competing with all the Marriott folks, I feel like things will spread out. But I’m just afraid my StarOptions, once converted will be worth less when considering trading and using at WKORV or something else. Am I understanding the general theme of this thread accurately? Or am I just over thinking?



I think you may be right. You can look at the charts for similar Orlando properties to get an idea of how many DPs you might receive, assuming Vistana owners are allowed to convert to DPs.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@klpenny Rescind now and wait for the announcement when terms are in writing so you know exactly what you are getting for the money. That deal is not going away. You can always go back later. Or sell/give away the properties and buy resale again.


----------



## tstiv1996

dioxide45 said:


> Your resale week and StarOptions may not even be able to be used to book Marriott weeks. We don't know how it will work. Us resale folks may still have to just continue to use StarOptions in VSN. The issue may be how Marriott values weeks and StarOptions. If they allocate points on the week level, people with Hawaii weeks may be more likely to use Marriott points than their StarOptions, but people with high season Kierland weeks may not convert and just continue using StarOptions. All based on speculation of course.


As long as I could book VSN resorts with same StarOptions conversion, I wouldn’t much care about staying at Marriott properties. I just hope my 95,700 SO under new conversion gets me the same villa type everywhere else. That’s why they say don’t buy where you don’t want to stay. Hopefully it’s a non issue, just a little more competitive.


----------



## VacationForever

tstiv1996 said:


> As long as I could book VSN resorts with same StarOptions conversion, I wouldn’t much care about staying at Marriott properties. I just hope my 95,700 SO under new conversion gets me the same villa type everywhere else. That’s why they say don’t buy where you don’t want to stay. Hopefully it’s a non issue, just a little more competitive.


Currently, your 95,700 SOs do not get the same villa type everywhere else.  A 2Br Hawaii Vistana villa requires 148,100 SOs. What you own and the ability to trade in VSN and II won't go away.


----------



## tstiv1996

VacationForever said:


> Currently, your 95,700 SOs do not get the same villa type everywhere else.  A 2Br Hawaii Vistana villa requires 148,100 SOs. What you own and the ability to trade in VSN and II won't go away.


Yes I just mean same conversation. For example I could get as high as 1br OF (not ever realistic, just as example) in Hawaii. Just hoping we get the same value out of our SO. In other words my SO holds the same value across VSN after the merge. Hope that makes sense.


----------



## vacationtime1

I don't see Marriott changing VSN at all.  It would be a public relations disaster if they cancelled that program and then tried to make VSN owners pay to enroll in a different internal trading system.

What I do see is the possibility that Marriott will starve VSN of tradeable inventory over time by incentivizing VSN owners to pay to enroll in a better system -- or at least a different system with more properties.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I expect that they would devalue/align SVV with Orlando trades into MVC.  So SO exchange values would not change. This would be a disincentive to sign up for the new plan and stick wtih SOs if this came to pass.

We had a similar discussion of "starving inventory" in the existing system over on the Diamond/Hilton thread and although reps like to instill fear that "the sky is falling" no one has reported that it has ever come to pass with impact within last 20 years.

SO owners should hope that they charge a lot to enroll in MVC because that means fewer owners will pay the "ransom" fee and upgrade. This means more inventory remains in the SO pool.

Let's not forget that after 10 years of offering "upgrades" to enroll in the MVC points system, plus offering it for *FREE* to pre 2010 owners, only 60% of the entire MVC base have enrolled in their points program. That means that 40% of inventory remained as is after a decade of trying to upgrade people to their new program.


----------



## tstiv1996

Well for someone who’s motivation is to play in the SO pool, I guess I feel a little more encouraged. Granted we continue to just be speculative. I agree that it would cause an uproar among a large Customer Base if they didn’t allow us to use SO like we do now. Biggest concern I think for SO owners is the inventory issue.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

tstiv1996 said:


> Well for someone who’s motivation is to play in the SO pool, I guess I feel a little more encouraged. Granted we continue to just be speculative. I agree that it would cause an uproar among a large Customer Base if they didn’t allow us to use SO like we do now. Biggest concern I think for SO owners is the inventory issue.



Traders know that there are risks vs. owning where you want to go in which deed availability is guaranteed. I assume you got this resale for next to nothing. Ride this horse and then dump it when you don't get value out of it anymore. You are not losing a thing. My bet is that your horse will still give you many years of SO value no matter what they concoct.


----------



## tstiv1996

CalGalTraveler said:


> Traders know that there are risks vs. owning where you want to go in which deed availability is guaranteed. I assume you got this resale for next to nothing. Ride this horse and then dump it when you don't get value out of it anymore. You are not losing a thing. My bet is that your horse will still give you many years of SO value no matter what they concoct.


You are very right. That’s what I needed to hear lol.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> Traders know that there are risks vs. owning where you want to go in which deed availability is guaranteed. I assume you got this resale for next to nothing. Ride this horse and then dump it when you don't get value out of it anymore. You are not losing a thing. My bet is that your horse will still give you many years of SO value no matter what they concoct.


We are  well over a decade into Marriott's points based system and we are still getting value using Marriott weeks. I suspect the same will be true for VSN. There will be adjustments that need to be made and some weeks and resorts may be harder to book at 8 months, but we will still be able to go most places we can go.


----------



## daviator

It seems to me that if you own deeded weeks, there will always be value there, value that MVC can’t destroy no matter how they change the program.  Without access to those deeded weeks, they have nothing to offer, so I think deeded week owners will be ok and VSN members will continue to be able to trade within VSN, at the very minimum.  They may well offer free enrollment in the new program, that would be the fastest way to get lots of weeks enrolled and give them a much larger trading/selling pool, if that is their goal.

In that case, we’ll undoubtedly have lots of discussions here on the merits of enrolling in the new program, or not.  

Now for those who own only points, there’s more that MVC can do to muck with the value of those points, but I don’t think it’s in their interest to piss off their customer base, so hopefully they won’t do so.


----------



## mdragt

cindylou said:


> Thanks everyone for the reminders of what we already knew (mostly), but forget when getting sucked into their sales pitches to authorize our weeks "for only 25K."  TUG to the rescue again.
> 
> We are running away and sending the Encore cancellation document via certified mail. (Damn them they only accept faxes and mail, not email, and I doubt I could get confirmation a fax was received).


I need to get my hands on an Encore cancellation document, can anyone help?


----------



## dioxide45

mdragt said:


> I need to get my hands on an Encore cancellation document, can anyone help?


It should be included in your Encore Package agreement. The terms of cancellation would be spelled out there. The ability to cancel an Encore Package may not apply in all states. If there is a cancellation or rescission provision, there is no specific document to sent. You would just write up a letter indicating you want to rescind and send it to the address in the agreement.


----------



## VacationForever

When we bought our Encore Package at Westin Kierland in Nov/Dec 2021, there was recission provision, EXCEPT it did not specify the company and an incomplete address. I sent in to Westin Vacation Club, with the partial address, i.e. no Suite number, USPS did not deliver the mail because of "incomplete address".  When I saw that it was not delivered through USPS tracking, I looked it up, that same building has Wyndham and MVC Call Center.  I then faxed to the listed number and resent the recission request, this time to Marriott Vacation Club and a suite number of the call center which I found on the website.  This is really dirty tactic by MVC.


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

VacationForever said:


> When we bought our Encore Package at Westin Kierland in Nov/Dec 2021, there was recission provision, EXCEPT it did not specify the company and an incomplete address. I sent in to Westin Vacation Club, with the partial address, i.e. no Suite number, USPS did not deliver the mail because of "incomplete address".  When I saw that it was not delivered through USPS tracking, I looked it up, that same building has Wyndham and MVC Call Center.  I then faxed to the listed number and resent the recission request, this time to Marriott Vacation Club and a suite number of the call center which I found on the website.  This is really dirty tactic by MVC.


Yup and this will probably get deleted but I am so disappointed that Marriott and Hyatt have both decided not to pull out of Russia .


----------



## daviator

Tucsonadventurer said:


> Yup and this will probably get deleted but I am so disappointed that Marriott and Hyatt have both decided not to pull out of Russia .


Presumably they are going to have some real problems getting money from those properties out of Russia, which may force them to make a different decision in time.  But I share your disappointment.


----------



## Ken555

Tucsonadventurer said:


> Yup and this will probably get deleted but I am so disappointed that Marriott and Hyatt have both decided not to pull out of Russia .











						Marriott pauses opening new hotels, investment in Russia
					

Hotel chain Marriott International Inc said on Thursday it has decided to pause the opening of upcoming hotels and all future hotel development and investment in Russia, following Moscow's invasion of Ukraine.




					www.reuters.com
				




Hilton and Hyatt have a similar announcement.


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

Ken555 said:


> Marriott pauses opening new hotels, investment in Russia
> 
> 
> Hotel chain Marriott International Inc said on Thursday it has decided to pause the opening of upcoming hotels and all future hotel development and investment in Russia, following Moscow's invasion of Ukraine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hilton and Hyatt have a similar announcement.


Ok that has a more positive slant to it. Last I read they were on the short list of companies not pulling  out and were not commenting when asked for reasons. Sounds like it is under consideration but Noone at this point is making new investments in Russia so that is good PR. Thanks for posting that. I didn't know about Hilton


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> We are  well over a decade into Marriott's points based system and we are still getting value using Marriott weeks. I suspect the same will be true for VSN. There will be adjustments that need to be made and some weeks and resorts may be harder to book at 8 months, but we will still be able to go most places we can go.



Are your Marriott weeks enrolled also so you have the option to use DPs if you want? Is there any loss with the DP program if someone bought a Marriott resale week post 2010 or who is eligible for free/cheap enrollment if purchased before 2010?

On the other hand, with Vistana, we have a points program that could be taken away. Many Vistana people will be upset by this bc they like SOs program. Many people paid a lot resale for mandatory weeks and do not want to use DPs. 

For people who purchased a cheap mandatory Vistana week, like the ones in Orlando, does it really matter since they paid little for it? I know it is upsetting but they could offload it cheaply too if they do not like the changes.

For non mandatory weeks, are they losing anything?

If the fee to enroll my Vistana week is reasonable, I will enroll it and not care if they take away the SO program. I do not really like SOs because to book anything other than home resort, you need to do it at 8 months. Even at 12 month mark, I hear it is getting hard to book at the 12 month mark too. I like booking DPs at the 13 month for sure. Plus a new combined program will probably get me to Chairman’s Level (fingers crossed).


----------



## TravelTime

Tucsonadventurer said:


> Ok that has a more positive slant to it. Last I read they were on the short list of companies not pulling  out and were not commenting when asked for reasons. Sounds like it is under consideration but Noone at this point is making new investments in Russia so that is good PR. Thanks for posting that. I didn't know about Hilton



Aren’t hotels just licensing the Marriott name? I think I read that in the past. I think hotel owners pay a licensing fee. If so, Marriott can’t pull out of their agreements until they expire.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> Aren’t hotels just licensing the Marriott name? I think I read that in the past. I think hotel owners pay a licensing fee. If so, Marriott can’t pull out of their agreements until they expire.


For the most part they are. I did do a search and notice I can still book a Marriott property in Moscow on Marriott.com.


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> For the most part they are. I did do a search and notice I can still book a Marriott property in Moscow on Marriott.com.



Could that be part of the licensing agreement too for that hotel? If not, hopefully they can remove it.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> Could that be part of the licensing agreement too for that hotel? If not, hopefully they can remove it.


I am sure there is some contractual obligation.


----------



## dioxide45

Well tomorrow is a day we have seen posted that we should see some information from Marriott about a potential new program. Several people have heard at sales presentations the 14th or 15th. I wonder if we will really see anything or if it was just more sales lies?


----------



## jabberwocky

I have a feeling we are in for a great disappointment tomorrow. But I could be surprised if something does come out.


----------



## Ken555

Yaaaaaawwwwnnnnn.

Oh, pardon me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## TravelTime

Nothing yet. I am getting disappointed. I was hoping for an announcement today.


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## dioxide45

I have been refreshing my email every 10 minutes. I'm still waiting...


----------



## jwalk03

Sounds like maybe just more false information from sales??  But we'll see if anything pops by the end of the day.


----------



## dsmrp

Devil's in the details. I wouldn't think specifics would come in an email. A msg would be more likely a tool to drive more people to "owner updates". 

Still I'm curious in what, if any, they'll release today. I'll likely be one of the last batches out tho', if they follow previous messaging history...


----------



## William Seward

Just go off of a Vistana Chat session with the agent.

For what it worth below is his posting.

"I am sorry to tell you there was a one-week delay for that information, kindly expect our update on March 21, 2022.  I apologize for the inconvenience that this may cause".
Oswaldo


Bill Seward


----------



## cubigbird

William Seward said:


> Just go off of a Vistana Chat session with the agent.
> 
> For what it worth below is his posting.
> 
> "I am sorry to tell you there was a one-week delay for that information, kindly expect our update on March 21, 2022.  I apologize for the inconvenience that this may cause".
> Oswaldo
> 
> 
> Bill Seward



A botched announcement rollout.  You don’t say…..


----------



## KACTravels

I have an Owners update here at Kieran’s next Monday 3:21 @8:30am.  I’ll report back with any news.


----------



## Julian926

Heading to WMH next week.  They offered to discuss the merger with a group of people.  Should I go? Or, is this one of those pressure sales tactics that we should avoid?


----------



## dioxide45

William Seward said:


> Just go off of a Vistana Chat session with the agent.
> 
> For what it worth below is his posting.
> 
> "I am sorry to tell you there was a one-week delay for that information, kindly expect our update on March 21, 2022.  I apologize for the inconvenience that this may cause".
> Oswaldo
> 
> 
> Bill Seward


I've marked my calendar!


----------



## dioxide45

Julian926 said:


> Heading to WMH next week.  They offered to discuss the merger with a group of people.  Should I go? Or, is this one of those pressure sales tactics that we should avoid?


It will be a sales meeting, but you should go to find out all the deets.


----------



## Smithsingeneva

Haven’t had an Owner’s Update in 4 years.  Staying at home resort WKORVN (resale) and concierge kept pushing to attend one due to the “many changes coming” under Marriott.  Can someone point me to a thread with the changes or briefly summarize?  Thank you!


----------



## jabberwocky

Here you go:

https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/t...nd-marriott-ownerships-marriott-forum.332276/


----------



## lorenmd

i did hear that the name is bound something.  and probably june announcement.  so maybe boundless of boundvac or something weird like that. they said as strange as bonvoy seemed at first.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

This year we will decide whether to enroll in the MVC program or the HGV Max program when they roll out their integrations.  Unless the programs are <$1500 (doubtful) we will only invest in one. Plus we don't need that many more TS vacation nights if we bought both.

MVC/Vistana better fix their website so owners can reserve at 12 months before they start asking for more money.  This is a disincentive to spend more money with MVC because they appear IT incompetent and deaf to their customers complaints. I will attend presentations, take their gifts and then tell Reps this situation until it is fixed.


----------



## steve1000

I was at an owner update on Thursday and was told that the rollout announcement that had been scheduled for March 14 was delayed by a week and will be announced on Monday March 21. One of the issues I am interested in finding out about is whether as part of the "merger" the 12 month booking window for Westin units will be unchanged or whether Westin units will be aligned with Marriott's 13 month booking window for multiple consecutive week reservations and/or for owners who are Chairman or Presidential level.


----------



## Sicnarf

The b


steve1000 said:


> I was at an owner update on Thursday and was told that the rollout announcement that had been scheduled for March 14 was delayed by a week and will be announced on Monday March 21. One of the issues I am interested in finding out about is whether as part of the "merger" the 12 month booking window for Westin units will be unchanged or whether Westin units will be aligned with Marriott's 13 month booking window for multiple consecutive week reservations and/or for owners who are Chairman or Presidential level.


The booking window for Chairman or Presidential only applies to DC units or Vistana units acquired by the MVC trust. The booking window for VSE remains the same.


----------



## Renegade

9 days ago went thru an owner's update at Westin Desert Willows. Scored 2-$75 gift cards to spend 90 min. we couldn't spend at the pool because of bad weather.  There was a big Elite Membership Level chart on the wall behind the salesperson's desk.  He said the Elite Membership was going away the following week (merger to finalize), so it would not be of any further importance.  I don't think this could be possible in any shape or form.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

Removed


----------



## daviator

It just occurred to me (I'm clearly a little slow) that one big effect, undoubtedly intentional, of the movement away from deeded weeks, is that I assume that all of those weeks in the various trusts mean that MVW gets to vote those ownerships as it wishes.  In other words, "owners" of Flex points or other points-based products are not actually legal owners of the underlying real estate, and so if something comes up in any of the HOAs requiring a vote of the owners, MVW gets to vote for all of those weeks in the trusts.

This means that MVW will never have to worry about owners rebelling and deciding to pull out of their network, because the majority of owners are actually "owners" (with quotes) who have no voting rights.  Am I right about that?

I'm thinking of the Vistana property that pulled out a few years ago – Villas at Cave Creek I think it was.  That was kind of an unusual situation, but if MVC had sold their properties out as deeded weeks, it would have conceivably been possible that could happen again at another resort.  Now it is precluded because they control such a big chunk of the votes and will do so in perpetuity even if they were to sell out all the available points.

Sorry, this is marginally off-topic.  Occurred to me while reading this thread.


----------



## Sicnarf

I went to an MVC sales presentation at Hilton Head yesterday, and the salesman confirmed that Vistana Elite owners will be granted corresponding MVC elite level for free and developer/authorized resale VOIs will be enrolled in the DP program for free as well.  Supposedly, the catch is that you'll have to buy at least 1000 points to book trust owned VOIs. Otherwise, you only be able to book VOIs exchanged with the trust.  Has someone else heard this?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

daviator said:


> It just occurred to me (I'm clearly a little slow) that one big affect, undoubtedly intentional, of the movement away from deeded weeks, is that I assume that all of those weeks in the various trusts mean that MVW gets to vote those ownerships as it wishes.  In other words, "owners" of Flex points or other points-based products are not actually legal owners of the underlying real estate, and so if something comes up in any of the HOAs requiring a vote of the owners, MVW gets to vote for all of those units in the trusts.
> 
> This means that MVW will never have to worry about owners rebelling and deciding to pull out of their network, because the majority of owners are actually "owners" (with quotes) who have no voting rights.  Am I right about that?
> 
> I'm thinking of the Vistana property that pulled out a few years ago – Villas at Cave Creek I think it was.  That was kind of an unusual situation, but if MVC had sold their properties out as deeded weeks, it would have conceivably been possible that could happen again at another resort.  Now it is precluded because they control such a big chunk of the votes and will do so in perpetuity even if they were to sell out all the available points.
> 
> Sorry, this is marginally off-topic.  Occurred to me while reading this thread.



Bingo. Also why points owners have no state real estate protections when it comes to TS default. This is why we will always stick with deeds. Too many games can be played with points trusts.


----------



## cubigbird

CalGalTraveler said:


> Bingo. Also why points owners have no state real estate protections when it comes to TS default. This is why we will always stick with deeds. Too many games can be played with points trusts.


Remember…..if a sales rep is trying to talk you into giving up something, it generally strengthens their position and is in THEIR best interest.  Buyer beware.  Know what you own!

Spending lots of times at the pools and striking up conversations, I find it astounding the lack of knowledge people have and the high amount of trust placed in sales.  I tell them about TUG and they are shocked.

We love our ownerships, Vistana has GREAT properties, but we bought them and weren’t sold.


----------



## cubigbird

CalGalTraveler said:


> This year we will decide whether to enroll in the MVC program or the HGV Max program when they roll out their integrations.  Unless the programs are <$1500 (doubtful) we will only invest in one. Plus we don't need that many more TS vacation nights if we bought both.
> 
> MVC/Vistana better fix their website so owners can reserve at 12 months before they start asking for more money.  This is a disincentive to spend more money with MVC because they appear IT incompetent and deaf to their customers complaints. I will attend presentations, take their gifts and then tell Reps this situation until it is fixed.


The IT issue must be fixed.  If it gets worse and people are not able to book what they own and end up being left out, there’s going to be lawsuits.  It’s only a matter of time.


----------



## byeloe

]Buyer beware.  Know what you own!

Spending lots of times at the pools and striking up conversations, I find it astounding the lack of knowledge people have and the high amount of trust placed in sales.  I tell them about TUG and they are shocked.

This so true.  We just spent an extended time at WLR and I met so many people who had limited knowledge of what they owned and the system overall.  I was able to save one couple from going back to sign their purchase agreement.  Many others were unaware of the resale market.


----------



## Veritoalsol

Hi! We went to our owners update today. The SO program is not going away - but there will be a bridge into MVC if you retro your resale units into the VSN program. They offered us 67,100 EOY SOs and retroing our 2 bdr lockoff at Lagunamar and our 95,700 from SVV (mandatory) for 15430 (including a 10 percent discount). We had an unused encore package which gave us a 1495 US rebate (while keeping use of the week) and they had this “linkage” promo going on ( whereby if you stayed at a marriott property last week or had a reservation for next, you d get a 1500 discount). They also threw in 67,100 SOs for next year ( w the new SOs kicking in in 2025), and the option to buy 6 certificates for 330,000 bonvoy points for 2750 usd each until dec 2025. In the end, w closing costs we re at 13,330. What do you all wise folks think?


----------



## byeloe

The price seems in line with what they have been doing.  $10000 for the 1st and $5000 for each additional.  I wouldn't do it but your situation may be different.
Do you need access to the 148100 SO that would come with the WLR retro?
Are those 67000 EOY's from Aventuras Flex?


----------



## cubigbird

Veritoalsol said:


> Hi! We went to our owners update today. The SO program is not going away - but there will be a bridge into MVC if you retro your resale units into the VSN program. They offered us 67,100 EOY SOs and retroing our 2 bdr lockoff at Lagunamar and our 95,700 from SVV (mandatory) for 15430 (including a 10 percent discount). We had an unused encore package which gave us a 1495 US rebate (while keeping use of the week) and they had this “linkage” promo going on ( whereby if you stayed at a marriott property last week or had a reservation for next, you d get a 1500 discount). They also threw in 67,100 SOs for next year ( w the new SOs kicking in in 2025), and the option to buy 6 certificates for 330,000 bonvoy points for 2750 usd each until dec 2025. In the end, w closing costs we re at 13,330. What do you all wise folks think?



Make sure you are aware of the current IT issues.  Many owners are currently unable to book on the website and the problem is getting worse.


----------



## Veritoalsol

Hi! Yes the 67,100 are from aventuras flex. I d like the flexibility of the 148,100 SOs - we have a 2 bedroom lockoff but we re a family of 3 so often a 1 bedroom or studio is enough for us. I d be nice to chunk the points and use them elsewhere (Hawaii!). I m a bonvoy titanium elite - so those certificates look interesting to me. Not super familiar w MVC - just from a brand perspective I perceive Marriott as a bit lower end than Westin but i do like the idea of potentially trying some properties in locations where Vistana has nothing (Aruba, Tahoe).


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## pchung6

Marriott must did something to Vistana IT department, so Vistana IT guys just don't care anymore. Or they might mostly be let go. There are serious issues with Vistana website now. To me, based on my corporate experience, it is obviously toxic culture with management failures and corporate greets.


----------



## VacationForever

My speculation is that some of the Vistana servers and circuits have been moved over to MVC for the anticipated integration, leaving serious bandwidth issues for existing Vistana owners.


----------



## pchung6

VacationForever said:


> My speculation is that some of the Vistana servers and circuits have been moved over to MVC for the anticipated integration, leaving serious bandwidth issues for existing Vistana owners.


But no one did any testing before it goes live? It just leads me to believe MVC doesn't care about Vistana owners.


----------



## byeloe

Veritoalsol said:


> Hi! Yes the 67,100 are from aventuras flex. I d like the flexibility of the 148,100 SOs - we have a 2 bedroom lockoff but we re a family of 3 so often a 1 bedroom or studio is enough for us. I d be nice to chunk the points and use them elsewhere (Hawaii!). I m a bonvoy titanium elite - so those certificates look interesting to me. Not super familiar w MVC - just from a brand perspective I perceive Marriott as a bit lower end than Westin but i do like the idea of potentially trying some properties in locations where Vistana has nothing (Aruba, Tahoe).


there are definitely issues with lack of inventory in Aventuras.  You already have the ability to split your 2 bd WLR and can access Marriott properties through II.
I think the fees for those certificates are around $2250 each, I am not sure what the 300000 pt value would be under the new dynamic Bonvoy model.

You will have to decide if the flexible 148100 so is worth the cost.  There is nothing official about being able to cross book into the Marriotts, so I would not buy based on that sales tactic


----------



## VacationForever

pchung6 said:


> But no one did any testing before it goes live? It just leads me to believe MVC doesn't care about Vistana owners.


If my speculation is true then, I don't think they cared.  They just yanked the servers out from Vistana system and put them into MVC system to get ready for the integration, instead of investing in more infrastructure.


----------



## jabberwocky

Veritoalsol said:


> Hi! We went to our owners update today. The SO program is not going away - but there will be a bridge into MVC if you retro your resale units into the VSN program. They offered us 67,100 EOY SOs and retroing our 2 bdr lockoff at Lagunamar and our 95,700 from SVV (mandatory) for 15430 (including a 10 percent discount). We had an unused encore package which gave us a 1495 US rebate (while keeping use of the week) and they had this “linkage” promo going on ( whereby if you stayed at a marriott property last week or had a reservation for next, you d get a 1500 discount). They also threw in 67,100 SOs for next year ( w the new SOs kicking in in 2025), and the option to buy 6 certificates for 330,000 bonvoy points for 2750 usd each until dec 2025. In the end, w closing costs we re at 13,330. What do you all wise folks think?


This isn’t a terrible deal - and if you are wanting the SO a 148,100 Lagunamar retro makes sense. We did something similar with our SDO (except we got Westin Flex). I must say I’m glad we did it as we haven’t lost any of our usage with the pandemic. Being able to bank the SO was very valuable.


----------



## cubigbird

VacationForever said:


> If my speculation is true then, I don't think they cared.  They just yanked the servers out from Vistana system and put them into MVC system to get ready for the integration, instead of investing in more infrastructure.



I hope you are right.  The path this is currently leading to is a website that has zero functionality with no one able to book.  Here’s hoping we see changes soon…..


----------



## DavidnRobin

Complain and complain and complain…

To the point that they deal with so many complaints that they are spending too much effort dealing with complaints that they are forced to make changes.

I have been booking online since the beginning- never an issue until recently. Totally missed getting our WKV weeks for reservations that have always been easy at 12 months out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tamu_bu

DavidnRobin said:


> Complain and complain and complain…
> 
> To the point that they deal with so many complaints that they are spending too much effort dealing with complaints that they are forced to make changes.
> 
> I have been booking online since the beginning- never an issue until recently. Totally missed getting our WKV weeks for reservations that have always been easy at 12 months out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


At this point, I wouldn't assume you've missed out on the reservation. Who knows if the system is accurately showing availability? Keep trying until you are certain or call.


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## Tfziggs

Veritoalsol said:


> Hi! We went to our owners update today. The SO program is not going away - but there will be a bridge into MVC if you retro your resale units into the VSN program. They offered us 67,100 EOY SOs and retroing our 2 bdr lockoff at Lagunamar and our 95,700 from SVV (mandatory) for 15430 (including a 10 percent discount). We had an unused encore package which gave us a 1495 US rebate (while keeping use of the week) and they had this “linkage” promo going on ( whereby if you stayed at a marriott property last week or had a reservation for next, you d get a 1500 discount). They also threw in 67,100 SOs for next year ( w the new SOs kicking in in 2025), and the option to buy 6 certificates for 330,000 bonvoy points for 2750 usd each until dec 2025. In the end, w closing costs we re at 13,330. What do you all wise folks think?



I certainly wouldn’t do this for the bonvoy point certificates. With Marriotts dynamic pricing model it will be near impossible getting outsized value from the bonvoy program. They also devalue the program on an almost annual basis. Bonvoy points are worth ~.005 to .008 cent dollars (.5-.8 cents) each. At $2750 for 330,000 you are buying them for more than they are worth. Not a good deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Don Springett

DavidnRobin said:


> Complain and complain and complain…
> 
> To the point that they deal with so many complaints that they are spending too much effort dealing with complaints that they are forced to make changes.
> 
> I have been booking online since the beginning- never an issue until recently. Totally missed getting our WKV weeks for reservations that have always been easy at 12 months out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hi DavidnRobin, do you have an address or email address where we can all submit our complaints.  Seems like complaining on the phone will not do much good.  I have had trouble booking when trying to get a Saturday reservations 365 days in advance,  I just tried at 1pm on a Monday and could not connect.  This is horrible!


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## daviator

Tfziggs said:


> I certainly wouldn’t do this for the bonvoy point certificates. With Marriotts dynamic pricing model it will be near impossible getting outsized value from the bonvoy program. They also devalue the program on an almost annual basis. Bonvoy points are worth ~.005 to .008 cent each. At $2750 for 330,000 you are buying them for more than they are worth. Not a good deal.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think you mean that Bonvoy points are worth .5 to .8 cents each.  I would agree with that valuation.  I suspect you mean $0.005-$0.008 (dollars, not cents.)

Even in past years, I have received a number of those Bonvoy purchase certificates and have let them expire unused, they were not really a good value years ago and are an even worse value now.  At best, you get your money back in value, and in that case you''re better off hanging onto your money and just spending it for hotel rooms when you need them (and on other expenses when you don't.)  Besides, when you pay for rooms with dollars instead of points, you earn more Bonvoy points...


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## Tfziggs

daviator said:


> I think you mean that Bonvoy points are worth .5 to .8 cents each. I would agree with that valuation. I suspect you mean $0.005-$0.008 (dollars, not cents.)



You are correct.  Edited my post above for clarity.  Thanks.


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## KACTravels

Owners Update at Kierland today. ”Soft Launch” for merged program delayed until at least 3/24, but admitted until it happens it is not a hard date.  They did say it was supposed to be 3/14 and then slipped to 3/21 and again to 3/24.  Unsure of what the delay is except that they have not been told the conversion to  DC Points for the deeded weeks. The deeded weeks will all have different conversion rates based on location, season, etc. The people at Vistana and Marriott have all been trained and are ready for the launch. Full program will be in effect within 90 days of the “Soft Launch”.  They did not waiver on the following new disclosed information, but I did say I will only believe it when   it is in writing. (Please give me grace if I have wording wrong or even if parts don’t come to be)​​* Vistana program stays as is for all current owners.​*  Marriott owners will not have access to Vistana properties until 8 Months unless someone elects to to move their ownership into DC program​* Annually you can elect to move SO’s into the DC program​* 5 Star elite will be grandfathered into Chairman’s Level, but I’m unsure if you had to have conversions that equaled 15,000+ DC Vacation Club Points​*  Vistana Owners will not have a enrollment fee into the merged program, but will have the Club Fee to access (like our annual Vistana Fee)​*  Conversion rates have been set for the following​
Nanea 23:1
Westin Flex 28:1
Adventures 30:1
Sheraton Flex 32:1
Deeded Weeks TBD - she mentioned anywhere from 28:1 - 50:1  (We own WKORN OF and nobody would quote a conversion because they have not been told)
They were very aware of the website problems, but it’s good sales people would do minimized it moved on quickly.
​


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## VacationForever

KACTravels said:


> Owners Update at Kierland today. ”Soft Launch” for merged program delayed until at least 3/24, but admitted until it happens it is not a hard date.  They did say it was supposed to be 3/14 and then slipped to 3/21 and again to 3/24.  Unsure of what the delay is except that they have not been told the conversion to  DC Points for the deeded weeks. The deeded weeks will all have different conversion rates based on location, season, etc. The people at Vistana and Marriott have all been trained and are ready for the launch. Full program will be in effect within 90 days of the “Soft Launch”.  They did not waiver on the following new disclosed information, but I did say I will only believe it when   it is in writing. (Please give me grace if I have wording wrong or even if parts don’t come to be)​​* Vistana program stays as is for all current owners.​*  Marriott owners will not have access to Vistana properties until 8 Months unless someone elects to to move their ownership into DC program​* Annually you can elect to move SO’s into the DC program​* 5 Star elite will be grandfathered into Chairman’s Level, but I’m unsure if you had to have conversions that equaled 15,000+ DC Vacation Club Points​*  Vistana Owners will not have a enrollment fee into the merged program, but will have the Club Fee to access (like our annual Vistana Fee)​*  Conversion rates have been set for the following​
> Nanea 23:1
> Westin Flex 28:1
> Adventures 30:1
> Sheraton Flex 32:1
> Deeded Weeks TBD - she mentioned anywhere from 28:1 - 50:1  (We own WKORN OF and nobody would quote a conversion because they have not been told)
> They were very aware of the website problems, but it’s good sales people would do minimized it moved on quickly.
> ​


Did they mention eligibility of the program for resale vs. developer purchase and resale mandatory weeks SO conversion?


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## daviator

KACTravels said:


> Owners Update at Kierland today. ”Soft Launch” for merged program delayed until at least 3/24, but admitted until it happens it is not a hard date.  They did say it was supposed to be 3/14 and then slipped to 3/21 and again to 3/24.  Unsure of what the delay is except that they have not been told the conversion to  DC Points for the deeded weeks. The deeded weeks will all have different conversion rates based on location, season, etc. The people at Vistana and Marriott have all been trained and are ready for the launch. Full program will be in effect within 90 days of the “Soft Launch”.  They did not waiver on the following new disclosed information, but I did say I will only believe it when   it is in writing. (Please give me grace if I have wording wrong or even if parts don’t come to be)​​* Vistana program stays as is for all current owners.​*  Marriott owners will not have access to Vistana properties until 8 Months unless someone elects to to move their ownership into DC program​* Annually you can elect to move SO’s into the DC program​* 5 Star elite will be grandfathered into Chairman’s Level, but I’m unsure if you had to have conversions that equaled 15,000+ DC Vacation Club Points​*  Vistana Owners will not have a enrollment fee into the merged program, but will have the Club Fee to access (like our annual Vistana Fee)​*  Conversion rates have been set for the following​
> Nanea 23:1
> Westin Flex 28:1
> Adventures 30:1
> Sheraton Flex 32:1
> Deeded Weeks TBD - she mentioned anywhere from 28:1 - 50:1  (We own WKORN OF and nobody would quote a conversion because they have not been told)
> They were very aware of the website problems, but it’s good sales people would do minimized it moved on quickly.
> ​


Not trying to shoot the messenger, appreciate the update on the update....

But if they really think a conversion rate of 28:1 is going to incentivize deeded week owners at prime properties (like Maui) to opt into the DC program, I hope they learn that they're dead wrong.  To me, that's a laughable valuation that values a 2BR lockoff at any of the Westin Maui properties at something like 25% less than one of the tacky converted hotel rooms at Marriott Maui Ocean Club, which don't even have full kitchens.  I find that valuation so offensive that I wouldn't even consider participating in the program.  So let's hope the information you received turns out to be less than completely correct.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

KACTravels said:


> ​*  Marriott owners will not have access to Vistana properties until 8 Months unless someone elects to to move their ownership into DC program​​



Does this mean that Marriott owners will compete with Vistana SO owners at 8 Months? Hopefully DC owners won't be at 13 weeks into Vistana weeks or Westin Flex.


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## dioxide45

daviator said:


> Not trying to shoot the messenger, appreciate the update on the update....
> 
> But if they really think a conversion rate of 28:1 is going to incentivize deeded week owners at prime properties (like Maui) to opt into the DC program, I hope they learn that they're dead wrong.  To me, that's a laughable valuation that values a 2BR lockoff at any of the Westin Maui properties at something like 25% less than one of the tacky converted hotel rooms at Marriott Maui Ocean Club, which don't even have full kitchens.  I find that valuation so offensive that I wouldn't even consider participating in the program.  So let's hope the information you received turns out to be less than completely correct.


Read that deeded weeks owners won't use the same conversion. It won't be 28:1, but something else not disclosed to the messenger as they may not be finalized yet.



KACTravels said:


> The deeded weeks will all have different conversion rates based on location, season, etc.


----------



## cubigbird

CalGalTraveler said:


> Does this mean that Marriott owners will compete with Vistana SO owners at 8 Months? Hopefully DC owners won't be at 13 weeks into Vistana weeks or Westin Flex.



Marriott owners competing at 8 months makes sense as that’s how it is now with SOs but they should not get 13 months if they don’t own it.  If we don’t get 13 months at places we don’t own, why should they?


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> Does this mean that Marriott owners will compete with Vistana SO owners at 8 Months? Hopefully DC owners won't be at 13 weeks into Vistana weeks or Westin Flex.


I don't see how they could open up all Vistana inventory to Marriott owners at 8 months while still maintaining the integrity of VSN. Will Vistana owners also have the ability to book all Marriott inventory at 8 months? If not, then there could be a huge imbalance in VSN when inventory starts to get picked off by Marriott owners.


----------



## cubigbird

dioxide45 said:


> I don't see how they could open up all Vistana inventory to Marriott owners at 8 months while still maintaining the integrity of VSN. Will Vistana owners also have the ability to book all Marriott inventory at 8 months? If not, then there could be a huge imbalance in VSN when inventory starts to get picked off by Marriott owners.


I don’t see this as likely.  The imbalance would be so great there’d be so many Vistana owners unable to book what they own, leading to a PR nightmare and likely litigation.


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## VacationForever

cubigbird said:


> I don’t see this as likely.  The imbalance would be so great there’d be so many Vistana owners unable to book what they own, leading to a PR nightmare and likely litigation.


Ah, Vistana owners can book what they own at 12 months.  I don't see it as an issue.


----------



## daviator

cubigbird said:


> I don’t see this as likely.  The imbalance would be so great there’d be so many Vistana owners unable to book what they own, leading to a PR nightmare and likely litigation.


I've been presuming, without evidence of course, that Marriott owners will only have access to inventory from Vistana owners who opt-in to DC.  So those opted-in weeks or SOs become part of the DC pool, at least for that year, and then Marriott owners can try for them.

For the reasons you state, I can't believe they will open up all of the traditional VSN inventory to owners who are not part of VSN.  That just doesn't feel like something they could get away with.

For people who do not elect to opt-in to DC, they will continue to exchange within the VSN pool, which may shrink in both supply and demand, which shouldn't be apparent to those who use it, unless MVC manages to starve it of inventory to the point that it loses viability as an exchange network.  Again, this is my best guess.  The proof will be in the details which will be revealed on March 14.  Oops, I mean March 21.  Scratch that, maybe March 24.


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## Veritoalsol

My understanding is that Vistana inventory would open at 8 months, and Marriott at 13 months - just as it i today. Marriott does not have “home resorts”. The 12 months window for home resorts in Vistana would remain.


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## CalGalTraveler

dioxide45 said:


> I don't see how they could open up all Vistana inventory to Marriott owners at 8 months while still maintaining the integrity of VSN. Will Vistana owners also have the ability to book all Marriott inventory at 8 months? If not, then there could be a huge imbalance in VSN when inventory starts to get picked off by Marriott owners.



Agree. I hope the accessible inventory is Flex not weeks.


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## daviator

Veritoalsol said:


> Marriott does not have “home resorts”.



I don't believe this is true.  Destination Club does not have "home resorts" but Marriott Vacation Club certainly does, even if they no longer sell them.  Members of my extended family own deeded weeks with MVC and I'm nearly certain that they have a different ability to book the resort where they own vs. others in the network.

But I don't own in MVC myself so I am happy to be corrected if I'm wrong and am not understanding something.


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## rickandcindy23

The only right thing is to keep everything separate as it always has been.  That is the right thing.  But Marriott doesn't always do the right thing.  Look at the mess they made of the hotel acquisition.


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## mjm1

Veritoalsol said:


> My understanding is that Vistana inventory would open at 8 months, and Marriott at 13 months - just as it i today. Marriott does not have “home resorts”. The 12 months window for home resorts in Vistana would remain.





daviator said:


> I don't believe this is true.  Destination Club does not have "home resorts" but Marriott Vacation Club certainly does, even if they no longer sell them.  Members of my extended family own deeded weeks with MVC and I'm nearly certain that they have a different ability to book the resort where they own vs. others in the network.
> 
> But I don't own in MVC myself so I am happy to be corrected if I'm wrong and am not understanding something.



Daviator is correct. MVC does have both home resorts and a points system. The points system, which was rolled out in June 2010, is an overlay to the home resort system. If owners of home resorts have enrolled their unit in the points system (Destination Club) they can opt each year to either use their owned week, trade via II, or elect points for that particular year.

It will be nice once the details of the new system are released, so we can stop speculating and get started on learning how best to use our respective ownerships. We own both MVC and Vistana and like both systems. If the new option is worthwhile for our use, great. If not, we will just keep using our ownerships the way we do now.

Best regards.

Mike


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## VacationForever

I own in both systems and use them separately as they are.  If I have my druther, I would prefer the 2 systems be kept separate.


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## rcv82

I think a big question from a Vistana owners’ perspective is whether DC will directly integrate into VSN, or Vistana owners will be like the Marriott weeks owners and optionally convert to DC points for the year, and once that is done you book with DC points and your week is in the DC pool. If you don’t put it into DC you stay with your home use or VSN and your week will not be available to book with DC points. In the end I think the inventory has to balance out either way. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VacationForever

From day 1, I have speculated that the merger will be very similar to the Wyndham-Shell-Worldmark model.  We will see if it works the same way.  In the Wyndham model, for developer bought contracts/points, it enables cross-book into the other system at 7 months (7 is the number that I recalled).  MVC-Vistana can easily do the same at 8 months for "eligible" points.


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## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> From day 1, I have speculated that the merger will be very similar to the Wyndham-Shell-Worldmark model.  We will see if it works the same way.  In the Wyndham model, for developer bought contracts/points, it enables cross-book into the other system at 7 months (7 is the number that I recalled).  MVC-Vistana can easily do the same at 8 months for "eligible" points.


I think you’ll have vistana owners converting, until they realize there is less inventory in the DC point exchange for them to reserve compared to the VSN.


----------



## VacationForever

CPNY said:


> I think you’ll have vistana owners converting, until they realize there is less inventory in the DC point exchange for them to reserve compared to the VSN.


Not really. There are many more resorts and locations in the MVC system.  Also, if it follows the Wyndham model, it is not a conversion.  It takes x Wyndham points to book y nights in Worldmark at 7 months.  If you don't find something available in the other system, then you keep using your points in your own system.


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## DavidnRobin

VacationForever said:


> Ah, Vistana owners can book what they own at 12 months. I don't see it as an issue.



Because it eliminates the 2nd pillar of VSE Ownership — the ability to use StarOptions within VSN.
That’s why…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> Not really. There are many more resorts and locations in the MVC system.  Also, if it follows the Wyndham model, it is not a conversion.  It takes x Wyndham points to book y nights in Worldmark at 7 months.  If you don't find something available in the other system, then you keep using your points in your own system.


If we go by speculation, one would have to convert and give up the VSN that year and play in the DC exchange. If the converted vistana unit gets to book at 12 months then it would be great, but if the converted unit has to wait until 8 or 7 months, there could be problems.


----------



## CPNY

DavidnRobin said:


> Because it eliminates the 2nd pillar of VSE Ownership — the ability to use StarOptions within VSN.
> That’s why…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right! Which lets not forget, was a huge selling point to ownership.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

DavidnRobin said:


> Because it eliminates the 2nd pillar of VSE Ownership — the ability to use StarOptions within VSN.
> That’s why…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That's a significant devaluation if true. It would turn mandatory units effectively into voluntary units where you are locked into using your week or renting it out.


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## Eric B

CPNY said:


> If we go by speculation, one would have to convert and give up the VSN that year and play in the DC exchange. If the converted vistana unit gets to book at 12 months then it would be great, but if the converted unit has to wait until 8 or 7 months, there could be problems.



Seems like that would be fairly simple for a deeded fixed-week fixed-unit ownership.  It's not entirely clear how it would work for a floating week floating unit ownership, so the devil is in the details.


----------



## VacationForever

DavidnRobin said:


> Because it eliminates the 2nd pillar of VSE Ownership — the ability to use StarOptions within VSN.
> That’s why…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think VSN can be gotten rid of as it is written into mandatory resort By-laws and Ts&Cs.


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## VacationForever

CPNY said:


> If we go by speculation, one would have to convert and give up the VSN that year and play in the DC exchange. If the converted vistana unit gets to book at 12 months then it would be great, but if the converted unit has to wait until 8 or 7 months, there could be problems.


But this is not in the Wyndham model, as in my speculation.  You can cross-book without doing an actual conversion from SOs to DC points.


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## CPNY

Eric B said:


> Seems like that would be fairly simple for a deeded fixed-week fixed-unit ownership.  It's not entirely clear how it would work for a floating week floating unit ownership, so the devil is in the details.


Very true. The Vistana fixed week units will most likely be treated like the enrolled legacy weeks, point values would be based on resort/week/unit size. It would be pretty straight forward for what’s being deposited into the DC exchange (assuming that’s the program) when a deeded week owner converts. Unless Marriott controls the inventory deposited there as well. 

As myself and others have heard I do think that flex would have a specific conversion rate per SO converted.  If Marriott controls what’s deposited from the flex inventory when a flex owner converts, there may be some unhappy Marriott owners If the inventory to choose from isn’t the greatest.


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## vacationtime1

VacationForever said:


> I don't think VSN can be gotten rid of as it is written into mandatory resort By-laws and Ts&Cs.


Actually, they can.  VSN is not deeded; as you point out, it is in the by-laws which can be amended.

That said, it would be a PR nightmare for Marriott if it deleted VSN.  More likely (and my real fear) is that they will slowly, over years, starve VSN of inventory by manipulating the exchange platform.  If that happens and I cannot make StarOptions reservations, I will sell my Kierland units and enjoy my Maui OF unit as my only timeshare.


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## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> But this is not in the Wyndham model, as in my speculation.  You can cross-book without doing an actual conversion from SOs to DC points.


Were the programs in Wyndham, Shell, and Worldmark set up the same as either Vistana or Marriott DC? If I’m understanding correctly, the DC exchange was set up to be an external exchange program similar to that of an Interval International. Therefore, Marriott can add anything they want to that exchange pool. It would make sense and make it easier to just have people jump in the pool with their ownership by converting. They theoretically could add Hyatt and Welk units if they wanted to in the future.


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## Sicnarf

My understanding is VSE will continue to exist but Vistana owners will have the option to book MVC units by exchanging their Vistana units with destination points (DPs) on an annual basis. Booking priority will be based on you equivalent elite level in MVC and the MVC unit you can book will be limited to units exchanged to the "trust" unless you buy a minimum of 1000 DPs which will allow you to book all available units in the trust.


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## CPNY

vacationtime1 said:


> Actually, they can.  VSN is not deeded; as you point out, it is in the by-laws which can be amended.
> 
> That said, it would be a PR nightmare for Marriott if it deleted VSN.  More likely (and my real fear) is that they will slowly, over years, starve VSN of inventory by manipulating the exchange platform.  If that happens and I cannot make StarOptions reservations, I will sell my Kierland units and enjoy my Maui OF unit as my only timeshare.



I guess as long as there are two units the VSN, the VSN is still “alive”. I have a feeling I’ll be in good shape since I like to book the Harborside and Marriott owns way too many of those units and they can’t take them back from owners. There should be plenty of Harborside units in the VSN. Same goes for WSJ and WLR. I’m also sure not many will give back Maui units so I think the VSN should be in pretty good shape regardless. I’m hoping you have to convert to be in a combined program. That will help the VSN, since that’s no different than owners using what they own and it limits competition from Marriott owners coming into the VSN.


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## VacationForever

CPNY said:


> Were the programs in Wyndham, Shell, and Worldmark set up the same as either Vistana or Marriott DC? If I’m understanding correctly, the DC exchange was set up to be an external exchange program similar to that of an Interval International. Therefore, Marriott can add anything they want to that exchange pool. It would make sense and make it easier to just have people jump in the pool with their ownership by converting. They theoretically could add Hyatt and Welk units if they wanted to in the future.


Worldmark is a pure points system, and Shell is similar although the points are geographically based.  Wyndham has both weeks and points.  After they all were brought under the Wyndham umbrella and a couple of years later, they enabled developer-purchased points to cross-booking into the other systems but in a shorter booking window.


----------



## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> Worldmark is a pure points system, and Shell is similar although the points are geographically based.  Wyndham has both weeks and points.  After they all were brought under the Wyndham umbrella and a couple of years later, they enabled developer-purchased points to cross-booking into the other systems but in a shorter booking window.


I do hope that is not how it works out. Let those from Vistana who want Marriott, convert what they own. The only reason why I don’t see this happening is because it would limit Marriott owners from access to Vistana inventory.


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## KACTravels

VacationForever said:


> Did they mention eligibility of the program for resale vs. developer purchase and resale mandatory weeks SO conversion?



They did not specifically mention eligibility of resale weeks, but indicated that the sales rules will be common with the current Marriott system. My guess is that they legally can’t change Mandatory Ownership T&Cs, but May have different rules for the eligibility to convert to DC points. We will have to wait for many specific special circumstances.


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## bbland

Hi all, newbie here and looking for any help and advice.  After staying at Sheraton Steamboat several years in a row we decided to look into ownership.  We found the unit we want and the week we want, but curious how that will work if we buy resale now and then it converts to Marriott.  We really want the dedicated week.  Thanks so much for any and all advice.


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## EnglishmanAbroad

bbland said:


> Hi all, newbie here and looking for any help and advice.  After staying at Sheraton Steamboat several years in a row we decided to look into ownership.  We found the unit we want and the week we want, but curious how that will work if we buy resale now and then it converts to Marriott.  We really want the dedicated week.  Thanks so much for any and all advice.


Read through this thread. Nobody knows until it actually happens so advice most are giving is wait.


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## bbland

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> Read through this thread. Nobody knows until it actually happens so advice most are giving is wait.


Would you wait to buy or buy now and see what happens?  I would assume they would either have to keep my dedicated week or give equivalent points?  The chart I found puts this unit at 88,000 points.  The Westin in Maui is 80,000 points for 2 bedroom lock off to put it in perspective.  The week we love in this particular unit is $10,500 a week and this unit is selling for under $70,000 with $1700 in annual maintenance fees.  I would obviously offer less than the listed price, but it pays for itself very quickly.  So stressful and thanks again for all of the input.


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## KACTravels

bbland said:


> Would you wait to buy or buy now and see what happens?  I would assume they would either have to keep my dedicated week or give equivalent points?  The chart I found puts this unit at 88,000 points.  The Westin in Maui is 80,000 points for 2 bedroom lock off to put it in perspective.  The week we love in this particular unit is $10,500 a week and this unit is selling for under $70,000 with $1700 in annual maintenance fees.  I would obviously offer less than the listed price, but it pays for itself very quickly.  So stressful and thanks again for all of the input.


What “points” chart are you looking at? The Westin Kaanapali 2 BD Lockoff is 148,100 Star Options For a week (Non Ocean Front). $70K for any resale seems crazy to me, but I am not an expert by any means on the Colorado Resorts. I do think that if it is a deeded specific week resale unit that will be what you have. It will not be usable in the Vistana system because it is not a Mandatory Resort.


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## vacationtime1

bbland said:


> Would you wait to buy or buy now and see what happens?  I would assume they would either have to keep my dedicated week or give equivalent points?  The chart I found puts this unit at 88,000 points.  The Westin in Maui is 80,000 points for 2 bedroom lock off to put it in perspective.  The week we love in this particular unit is $10,500 a week and this unit is selling for under $70,000 with $1700 in annual maintenance fees.  I would obviously offer less than the listed price, but it pays for itself very quickly.  So stressful and thanks again for all of the input.


The 80000 and 88000 numbers are probably the Bonvoy point conversion numbers -- something for which you would be ineligible as a resale purchaser and which is a lousy conversion rate anyway.  You wouldn't get StarOptions as a resale purchaser either, but if your purpose is to ski at Steamboat, that won't matter.

$70K is a lot to pay for a resale week.  Is this a fixed week 7?  Is it a fixed week? (I don't know whether they even sold fixed weeks at Steamboat.)  Because if it is not a fixed week, you have no guarantee of being able to reserve a prime ski week each year; the winter season includes less desirable December and April weeks.  Your math on the purchase price and long-term use only makes sense if you know you will get the week you want every year.


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## bbland

S


KACTravels said:


> What “points” chart are you looking at? The Westin Kaanapali 2 BD Lockoff is 148,100 Star Options For a week (Non Ocean Front). $70K for any resale seems crazy to me, but I am not an expert by any means on the Colorado Resorts. I do think that if it is a deeded specific week resale unit that will be what you have. It will not be usable in the Vistana system because it is not a Mandatory Resort.



I'm sure not accurate for points today, but gave me a comparison to what this week is worth across other properties.  I'm actually fine with keeping the deeded week in the deeded unit.  It's just so hard to get accurate information.  I'm not going to offer full price, and will probably try to lowball, especially since this years usage is passed.  There are other smaller units in the resort going for quite a bit more than this one.  Again, our 1st time in the timeshare world, so trying to get as much information as possible and truly appreciate all of the responses.  









						Vistana / Starwood conversion:  Staroptions to Starpoints
					

Copyright © 2020 The Timeshare Guru Inc.



					www.thetimeshareguru.com


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## bbland

vacationtime1 said:


> The 80000 and 88000 numbers are probably the Bonvoy point conversion numbers -- something for which you would be ineligible as a resale purchaser and which is a lousy conversion rate anyway.  You wouldn't get StarOptions as a resale purchaser either, but if your purpose is to ski at Steamboat, that won't matter.
> 
> $70K is a lot to pay for a resale week.  Is this a fixed week 7?  Is it a fixed week? (I don't know whether they even sold fixed weeks at Steamboat.)  Because if it is not a fixed week, you have no guarantee of being able to reserve a prime ski week each year; the winter season includes less desirable December and April weeks.  Your math on the purchase price and long-term use only makes sense if you know you will get the week you want every year.


It is listed as fixed unit and week and is probably the best week and unit available..  There are a few others listed the same.  I'm going to push the company that has it listed to get more information.  Thanks again for the input.


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## vacationtime1

bbland said:


> It is listed as fixed unit and week and is probably the best week and unit available..  There are a few others listed the same.  I'm going to push the company that has it listed to get more information.  Thanks again for the input.


What you will want is an estoppel from Sheraton (which they call a "Resale Information Sheet").  This is the verification from Sheraton that the unit is what you expect it will be (fixed week, fixed unit, MF's paid up, no loan, etc.).  Representations from the broker are meaningless by themselves.  You won't get the estoppel until you have an open escrow (Sheraton doesn't issue them otherwise), but it is an absolute essential given what you intend to purchase.


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## Venter

bbland said:


> S
> 
> 
> I'm sure not accurate for points today, but gave me a comparison to what this week is worth across other properties.  I'm actually fine with keeping the deeded week in the deeded unit.  It's just so hard to get accurate information.  I'm not going to offer full price, and will probably try to lowball, especially since this years usage is passed.  There are other smaller units in the resort going for quite a bit more than this one.  Again, our 1st time in the timeshare world, so trying to get as much information as possible and truly appreciate all of the responses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vistana / Starwood conversion:  Staroptions to Starpoints
> 
> 
> Copyright © 2020 The Timeshare Guru Inc.
> 
> 
> 
> www.thetimeshareguru.com



It looks like you are interested in a 3 bedroom platinum(ski) season week at Steamboat.  The points you are referring to are Starpoints. These do not exist anymore as this was a convertion before Marriott took over Vistana for hotel points.  The points chart you should be referencing are StarOptions.  A 3 bedroom platinum at Steamboat will get 257 700 StarOptions.  Deeded weeks were only sold in the original villas and not in the converted hotel units.  This is a voluntary resort which means you will only be able to use your week or trade it through interval if you want to go elsewhere.  
You will have to make an additional purchase to 'make' your week eligible to be like a developer bought week.  If you do this you will be able to convert to StarOptions and use those points to trade into the other Vistana resorts at 8 months. See my attached points chart to see what you can trade for.

I have been inside those three bedroom dedicated units and they are amazing. There are probably not many going around so if I was a skier and had the money and the unit was indeed fixed( I think they sold the dedicated units as events weeks - you will have to do due diligence and ask for estoppel and contact the resort), I would definitely purchase this and later try and 'make' it a developer purchase.  To give you a rough estimate a 2 bedroom at Westin Riverfront has resale prices ranging from $28 000 to $54 000 for a fixed ski week and it can convert to 148 000 StarOptions.  So it sounds like $70 00 may not be a bad price. If it is $10 500 I would jump on this.(I couldn't quite understand what you meant when mentioning the prices).


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## bbland

Thanks so mu


Venter said:


> It looks like you are interested in a 3 bedroom platinum(ski) season week at Steamboat.  The points you are referring to are Starpoints. These do not exist anymore as this was a convertion before Marriott took over Vistana for hotel points.  The points chart you should be referencing are StarOptions.  A 3 bedroom platinum at Steamboat will get 257 700 StarOptions.  Deeded weeks were only sold in the original villas and not in the converted hotel units.  This is a voluntary resort which means you will only be able to use your week or trade it through interval if you want to go elsewhere.
> You will have to make an additional purchase to 'make' your week eligible to be like a developer bought week.  If you do this you will be able to convert to StarOptions and use those points to trade into the other Vistana resorts at 8 months. See my attached points chart to see what you can trade for.
> 
> I have been inside those three bedroom dedicated units and they are amazing. There are probably not many going around so if I was a skier and had the money and the unit was indeed fixed( I think they sold the dedicated units as events weeks - you will have to do due diligence and ask for estoppel and contact the resort), I would definitely purchase this and later try and 'make' it a developer purchase.  To give you a rough estimate a 2 bedroom at Westin Riverfront has resale prices ranging from $28 000 to $54 000 for a fixed ski week and it can convert to 148 000 StarOptions.  So it sounds like $70 00 may not be a bad price. If it is $10 500 I would jump on this.(I couldn't quite understand what you meant when mentioning the prices).



Thanks and yes it's a 3 bedroom in the Morningside tower mountain view.  We got super lucky and got one this year and are addicted.  There are only 7 of these units in the whole resort.  So I guess my next step is to call the resort to be sure how it works and if it's true we will jump on it.


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## teddyo333

I'll join the speculation game as well. I think that Marriott owners will only have access to the following:

1. VSN Flex Pool Units (8 Months or Less) - This may be the reason why Vistana/Marriott over the recent years were so aggressive with pricing as long as you traded in a deeded week. If I remember correctly; in 2013 one needed to spend upwards for 20K of new money to bring a resale unit into VSN, then it dropped to 15K and most recently 10K. This in IMHO was designed to increase this pool. 

2 . Non Flex Units that convert to DP - This allows the Flex Pool to be dynamic. This also allows customers to have a more "try and buy" feeling about DP Network. If they like it they can permanently convert their deeded units through the purchase in the DP network and now those units reside in the Flex Pool. This will now allow the converted Vistana/Marriott owner to access Vistana Flex Pool 12 Months out.

I do think the DP network and VSN network will remain in place but the cross conversion will give owners the appearance of more options. As far as deed weeks are concerned I feel those individuals that are able to book at the 12 month period will not have to worry about competition with Marriott owners since they will more than likely be limited to 8 Months or less. And those Vistana/Marriott owners that do purchase will only be able to pull from the Flex pool of units. I also feel that mandatory units (used for points only) may become less valuable in the future if more units are moved to the Flex pool (via conversion or Marriott manipulation). 

In the end deeded weeks where one wants to vacation may became the best option in either network. Once again this is just my opinion. I'm just joining in the speculation game


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## jabberwocky

We arrive at SDO on March 26th. I’m almost tempted to take the $200 they’ve offered to do an owner update and get the news “hot off the press”.


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## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> We arrive at SDO on March 26th. I’m almost tempted to take the $200 they’ve offered to do an owner update and get the news “hot off the press”.


Please do it!!!


----------



## CPNY

teddyo333 said:


> I'll join the speculation game as well. I think that Marriott owners will only have access to the following:
> 
> 1. VSN Flex Pool Units (8 Months or Less) - This may be the reason why Vistana/Marriott over the recent years were so aggressive with pricing as long as you traded in a deeded week. If I remember correctly; in 2013 one needed to spend upwards for 20K of new money to bring a resale unit into VSN, then it dropped to 15K and most recently 10K. This in IMHO was designed to increase this pool.
> 
> 2 . Non Flex Units that convert to DP - This allows the Flex Pool to be dynamic. This also allows customers to have a more "try and buy" feeling about DP Network. If they like it they can permanently convert their deeded units through the purchase in the DP network and now those units reside in the Flex Pool. This will now allow the converted Vistana/Marriott owner to access Vistana Flex Pool 12 Months out.
> 
> I do think the DP network and VSN network will remain in place but the cross conversion will give owners the appearance of more options. As far as deed weeks are concerned I feel those individuals that are able to book at the 12 month period will not have to worry about competition with Marriott owners since they will more than likely be limited to 8 Months or less. And those Vistana/Marriott owners that do purchase will only be able to pull from the Flex pool of units. I also feel that mandatory units (used for points only) may become less valuable in the future if more units are moved to the Flex pool (via conversion or Marriott manipulation).
> 
> In the end deeded weeks where one wants to vacation may became the best option in either network. Once again this is just my opinion. I'm just joining in the speculation game



If a unit that is In Flex becomes part of the VSN at 8 months how can they determine which of those units Marriott would have access to without giving them access to the whole VSN? Does Marriott take all of those flex units out of the VSN and place them in the DC? If they did that then the flex owners would lose the ability to book units in the VSN or their home resorts. 

I have a feeling it’s going to be easier than we all think. I’m expecting it to be more in line with how interval exchange works. You give up what you have for something you want. The inventory becomes available for all in the exchange to book. The conversion will be transparent since we have point values attached.


----------



## teddyo333

CPNY said:


> If a unit that is In Flex becomes part of the VSN at 8 months how can they determine which of those units Marriott would have access to without giving them access to the whole VSN? Does Marriott take all of those flex units out of the VSN and place them in the DC? If they did that then the flex owners would lose the ability to book units in the VSN or their home resorts.
> 
> I have a feeling it’s going to be easier than we all think. I’m expecting it to be more in line with how interval exchange works. You give up what you have for something you want. The inventory becomes available for all in the exchange to book. The conversion will be transparent since we have point values attached.




I see your point. So let me revise my speculation.

1. VSN Flex Pool Units Only (*12 to 8 Months with purchase of DP*) - This may be the reason why Vistana/Marriott over the recent years were so aggressive with pricing as long as you traded in a deeded week. If I remember correctly; in 2013 one needed to spend upwards for 20K of new money to bring a resale unit into VSN, then it dropped to 15K and most recently 10K. This in IMHO was designed to increase this pool.

2 . Non Flex Units that convert to DP - This allows the Flex Pool to be dynamic. This also allows customers to have a more "try and buy" feeling about DP Network. If they like it they can permanently convert their deeded units through the purchase in the DP network and now those units reside in the Flex Pool. This will now allow the converted Vistana/Marriott owner to access Vistana Flex Pool 12 Months out and *all VSN Network properties 8 Months out or less*.

In order for either option to work owners will have two accounts (Vistana & Marriott Vacation Club). I own properties in both networks today and have two accounts. The only difference will be that there maybe a utility that allows an owner to convert points from one system to another. This would be similar to what SPG and Marriott had years ago that allowed one to convert SPG Points (Starpoints) to Marriott Points. At the time 1 SGP point was equal to 3 Marriott points. The owner would only have to link the their accounts and perform the conversion themselves.

More than likely it will be less complicated than this like you stated.


----------



## CPNY

teddyo333 said:


> I see your point. So let me revise my speculation.
> 
> 1. VSN Flex Pool Units Only (*12 to 8 Months with purchase of DP*) - This may be the reason why Vistana/Marriott over the recent years were so aggressive with pricing as long as you traded in a deeded week. If I remember correctly; in 2013 one needed to spend upwards for 20K of new money to bring a resale unit into VSN, then it dropped to 15K and most recently 10K. This in IMHO was designed to increase this pool.
> 
> 2 . Non Flex Units that convert to DP - This allows the Flex Pool to be dynamic. This also allows customers to have a more "try and buy" feeling about DP Network. If they like it they can permanently convert their deeded units through the purchase in the DP network and now those units reside in the Flex Pool. This will now allow the converted Vistana/Marriott owner to access Vistana Flex Pool 12 Months out and *all VSN Network properties 8 Months out or less*.
> 
> In order for either option to work owners will have two accounts (Vistana & Marriott Vacation Club). I own properties in both networks today and have two accounts. The only difference will be that there maybe a utility that allows an owner to convert points from one system to another. This would be similar to what SPG and Marriott had years ago that allowed one to convert SPG Points (Starpoints) to Marriott Points. At the time 1 SGP point was equal to 3 Marriott points. The owner would only have to link the their accounts and perform the conversion themselves.
> 
> More than likely it will be less complicated than this like you stated.



I don’t see see Marriott owners having full access to the VSN at 8 months, well, I HOPE not! I also don’t see how they can force flex owners to buy DP’s when sales has been spinning the only way into a combined program is to buy flex. I think all developer and enrolled VSN ownerships will be eligible. Resales Voluntary/Mandatory will most likely only be in the VSN. 

The only thing I know for certain is that I don’t know.


----------



## dioxide45

teddyo333 said:


> 2 . Non Flex Units that convert to DP - This allows the Flex Pool to be dynamic. This also allows customers to have a more "try and buy" feeling about DP Network. If they like it they can permanently convert their deeded units through the purchase in the DP network and now those units reside in the Flex Pool. This will now allow the converted Vistana/Marriott owner to access Vistana Flex Pool 12 Months out and *all VSN Network properties 8 Months out or less*.


I think though if one actually elects DC points in a given year from their non Flex (week) ownership, they would lose the ability to access VSN inside of 8 months. Once DC points are elected, you can access inventory that sits in the MVC (DC) Exchange Company.


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## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I think though if one actually elects DC points in a given year from their non Flex (week) ownership, they would lose the ability to access VSN inside of 8 months. Once DC points are elected, you can access inventory that sits in the MVC (DC) Exchange Company.


That’s the easiest thing to do. It could be why the vistana site is so bad lately. They are building the ability to convert and book via the vistana page


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## dioxide45

teddyo333 said:


> 1. VSN Flex Pool Units Only (*12 to 8 Months with purchase of DP*) - This may be the reason why Vistana/Marriott over the recent years were so aggressive with pricing as long as you traded in a deeded week. If I remember correctly; in 2013 one needed to spend upwards for 20K of new money to bring a resale unit into VSN, then it dropped to 15K and most recently 10K. This in IMHO was designed to increase this pool.


At one time you would actually trade in your week to Vistana and they would sell back points. That changed about 4-5 years ago where they moved to a retro model and no longer took direct trade ins. So, within the last five years or so, they haven't been increasing the pool at all, simply selling new points and retroing weeks. Flex pool hasn't been getting bigger except through  inventory that Vistana has been adding via their Responsible Exit deed back program, foreclosure or new inventory (Sheraton Kauai).


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## teddyo333

CPNY said:


> I don’t see see Marriott owners having full access to the VSN at 8 months, well, I HOPE not! I also don’t see how they can force flex owners to buy DP’s when sales has been spinning the only way into a combined program is to buy flex. I think all developer and enrolled VSN ownerships will be eligible. Resales Voluntary/Mandatory will most likely only be in the VSN.
> 
> The only thing I know for certain is that I don’t know.



You are right. I meant to state that if one converts a deeded Vistana week to Flex by purchasing DP or Vistana properties (possible option to allow sales present both options to perspective customers). The owner will now have access to Flex 12 to 8 Months out. This would increase the Flex Pool and reduce the deed weeks pool. 

As far as access 8 Months out, I hope you are right. But I always like to prepare for the worst case scenario. Marriott will always look out for what's best for their shareholders (maximize profits) over owners.


----------



## teddyo333

dioxide45 said:


> At one time you would actually trade in your week to Vistana and they would sell back points. That changed about 4-5 years ago where they moved to a retro model and no longer took direct trade ins. So, within the last five years or so, they haven't been increasing the pool at all, simply selling new points and retroing weeks. Flex pool hasn't been getting bigger except through  inventory that Vistana has been adding via their Responsible Exit deed back program, foreclosure or new inventory (Sheraton Kauai).




I did not realize that (learn something new every day). So when a deed is retro'd does in stay in the deeded week pool? My thought process is that they wanted to make options for deeded week owners more difficult. This would push them to purchase Flex eventually since they are unable to book what the want if their pool is smaller. Just speculation on my part.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> At one time you would actually trade in your week to Vistana and they would sell back points. That changed about 4-5 years ago where they moved to a retro model and no longer took direct trade ins. So, within the last five years or so, they haven't been increasing the pool at all, simply selling new points and retroing weeks. Flex pool hasn't been getting bigger except through  inventory that Vistana has been adding via their Responsible Exit deed back program, foreclosure or new inventory (Sheraton Kauai).


So in reality they have been funding the VSN with all these retro sales? Sounds good to me. Sure there is more competition but that means there are more units to book for the rest of us


----------



## CPNY

teddyo333 said:


> Marriott will always look out for what's best for their shareholders (maximize profits) over owners.



This is why nothing will be for free and it will cost everyone a little something or they could just charge per exchange. Want to convert SO to DP, sure, for 99 bucks per transaction.


----------



## dioxide45

teddyo333 said:


> I did not realize that (learn something new every day). So when a deed is retro'd does in stay in the deeded week pool? My thought process is that they wanted to make options for deeded week owners more difficult. This would push them to purchase Flex eventually since they are unable to book what the want if their pool is smaller. Just speculation on my part.


A retroed week is still a week and doesn't move to the Flex pool. Years ago, Vistana took true trade ins. Taking back your deeded week and adding it to the Flex trust all while selling back a certain number of Flex HomeOptions. They stopped doing that about 3-5 years ago. I don't remember exactly when. Now they just retro the week. The week is still a deeded week that can be used to book at 8 months in VSN with StarOptions. Home resort booking remains at 12-8 months.


----------



## cubigbird

They are still taking deeds back via trade if is advantageous for them.  At our last presentation they offered to trade in my WDW platinum plus deed as down money for more WSJ homeoptions.  We declined it as we didn’t want to give up our deed and already have enough WSJ.  I wouldn’t say they have completely stopped doing trade ins.  If you have a deeded week they really want for Flex, they will selectively offer.


----------



## tamu_bu

CPNY said:


> That’s the easiest thing to do. It could be why the vistana site is so bad lately. They are building the ability to convert and book via the vistana page


Definitely this would be the case if they are a moronic company that doesn't develop on a parallel development server!


----------



## CPNY

tamu_bu said:


> Definitely this would be the case if they are a moronic company that doesn't develop on a parallel development server!


You do realize we are talking about Marriott right?


----------



## dioxide45

I am waiting on pins and needles for the email today! I bet they know all about the changes at the sales office


----------



## VacationForever

I believe the reschedule of announcement dates has to do with the IT system to support the changes is not ready to go.  Marriott IT is at work, or not, again.


----------



## Eric B

Any word on when they'll be announcing the rescheduling of the announcement yet?


----------



## KACTravels

We had our update on Monday and the rep said 3/24 for the (acknowledged 3rd rescheduled) soft launch. I just emailed her and asked if it actually happened and asked her to email me the official details.


----------



## William Seward

Hello KACTravels,

If you get a response after your reach out could you post that data on this form. I personally question if I will get an email, I've never gotten one in the past. I'm thinking, I will have to check the website to figure out the update. 

The only think I have ever been told from different sources is the reservation system will be combined. Maybe that mean you will log into your respective system that will be identical across MVC and VSN. 

Bill Seward


----------



## dioxide45

William Seward said:


> Hello KACTravels,
> 
> If you get a response after your reach out could you post that data on this form. I personally question if I will get an email, I've never gotten one in the past. I'm thinking, I will have to check the website to figure out the update.
> 
> The only think I have ever been told from different sources is the reservation system will be combined. Maybe that mean you will log into your respective system that will be identical across MVC and VSN.
> 
> Bill Seward


When Marriott rolled out their Destinations Club points program in 2010, they sent an email to owners. Things may be different this time or it may require one to attend an owner update for "more information'.


----------



## HankW

William Seward said:


> Hello KACTravels,
> 
> If you get a response after your reach out could you post that data on this form. I personally question if I will get an email, I've never gotten one in the past. I'm thinking, I will have to check the website to figure out the update.
> 
> The only think I have ever been told from different sources is the reservation system will be combined. Maybe that mean you will log into your respective system that will be identical across MVC and VSN.
> 
> Bill Seward


FWIW, on my three WLR reservations for this year, at around midnight today, I got new reservations with the Marriott logo.  Interestingly enough, I did not get the same "update" for my SVV this year.


----------



## Eric B

HankW said:


> FWIW, on my three WLR reservations for this year, at around midnight today, I got new reservations with the Marriott logo.  Interestingly enough, I did not get the same "update" for my SVV this year.



Same thing happened for me.  It had been reported earlier for other resorts in this thread:









						IMPORTANT: Marriott is re-issuing Vistana reservations
					

Some owners are recieving emails stating that their Vistana reservations are being reissued under new/additional numbers.  Some owners have lost reservations.  It would be a good idea for all Vistana owners to go to their online accounts immediately and save a screen shot of their current...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## KACTravels

Just received this text back from the rep I had the meeting with on Monday on if the "soft launch" has actually happened.  Her reply:

 "Yes it has officially happened. I am excited to share the new info. As it comes in I will share.  (Conversion for) Kierland Plat 148,100 it's 36.57 so election value is 4050. Yes it's confirmed it's just an election at no cost. There is no buy in on the Marriott side. It's automatically enrolled. So each year you choose if you elect or not. If you don't elect then it will work exactly as it does now in the Vistana network."  "Yes the owners will get the info. Yes Flex is higher than weeks in their system. We don't have Kaanapali yet"

I'm very surprised that Kierland Platinum is valued less than Sheraton Flex!  
FROM my previous post:
Conversion rates have been set for the following

Nanea 23:1
Westin Flex 28:1
Adventures 30:1
Sheraton Flex 32:1
Deeded Weeks TBD - she mentioned anywhere from 28:1 - 50:1 (We own WKORN OF and nobody would quote a conversion because they have not been told)


----------



## CPNY

KACTravels said:


> Just received this text back from the rep I had the meeting with on Monday on if the "soft launch" has actually happened.  Her reply:
> 
> "Yes it has officially happened. I am excited to share the new info. As it comes in I will share.  (Conversion for) Kierland Plat 148,100 it's 36.57 so election value is 4050. Yes it's confirmed it's just an election at no cost. There is no buy in on the Marriott side. It's automatically enrolled. So each year you choose if you elect or not. If you don't elect then it will work exactly as it does now in the Vistana network."  "Yes the owners will get the info. Yes Flex is higher than weeks in their system. We don't have Kaanapali yet"
> 
> I'm very surprised that Kierland Platinum is valued less than Sheraton Flex!
> FROM my previous post:
> Conversion rates have been set for the following
> 
> Nanea 23:1
> Westin Flex 28:1
> Adventures 30:1
> Sheraton Flex 32:1
> Deeded Weeks TBD - she mentioned anywhere from 28:1 - 50:1 (We own WKORN OF and nobody would quote a conversion because they have not been told)



So everything is taking place in the DC. The only way for Marriott owners to book Vistana properties is if vistana owners elect to convert or can Marriott fund the DC with inventory that has historically been in the VSN?


----------



## KACTravels

CPNY said:


> So everything is taking place in the DC. The only way for Marriott owners to book Vistana properties is if vistana owners elect to convert or can Marriott fund the DC with inventory that has historically been in the VSN?


I am unsure, as a text from sales is not official.  I'm still waiting and anxious for any "official notification" in writing from Vistana/Marriott


----------



## CPNY

KACTravels said:


> I am unsure, as a text from sales is not official.  I'm still waiting and anxious for any "official notification" in writing from Vistana/Marriott


It’s interesting that she put it in writing.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> It’s interesting that she put it in writing.


Not sure the conversion rates are in writing. That looks to be based on prior conversation?


----------



## travelhacker

Well....this thread is about to get a whole lot more interesting.


----------



## dioxide45

KACTravels said:


> (Conversion for) Kierland Plat 148,100 it's 36.57 so election value is 4050.


I think there is confusion with this. Sales reps will try to convert from StaOptions to Marriott points to make it easy for people to understand, but in reality it is a valuation of the underlying deeded week. So a 2BR Plat+ at WKV is worth 4,050 points. This falls in line with a deeded high season week at Canyon Villas which are 4,175 DC points.


----------



## CPNY

KACTravels said:


> Just received this text back from the rep I had the meeting with on Monday on if the "soft launch" has actually happened.  Her reply:
> 
> "Yes it has officially happened. I am excited to share the new info. As it comes in I will share.  (Conversion for) Kierland Plat 148,100 it's 36.57 so election value is 4050. Yes it's confirmed it's just an election at no cost. There is no buy in on the Marriott side. It's automatically enrolled. So each year you choose if you elect or not. If you don't elect then it will work exactly as it does now in the Vistana network."  "Yes the owners will get the info. Yes Flex is higher than weeks in their system. We don't have Kaanapali yet"
> 
> I'm very surprised that Kierland Platinum is valued less than Sheraton Flex!
> FROM my previous post:
> Conversion rates have been set for the following
> 
> Nanea 23:1
> Westin Flex 28:1
> Adventures 30:1
> Sheraton Flex 32:1
> Deeded Weeks TBD - she mentioned anywhere from 28:1 - 50:1 (We own WKORN OF and nobody would quote a conversion because they have not been told)


Did she confirm these conversion rates?


----------



## vacation dreaming

Flex owns weeks, VSN doesn’t actually own any weeks until 8 months out when the owner has passively given up their rights to it.  I would think at 13 or 12 months out Marriott owners could reserve what has been converted plus anything the Marriott trust has purchased.  The separate question is what happens at 8 months and my guess is that those weeks would stay in VSN.


----------



## dioxide45

travelhacker said:


> Well....this thread is about to get a whole lot more interesting.


Perhaps a little, but we need to see weeks based valuations for it to get much more interesting.

I wonder what a"soft launch" really is. If there is no buy in and no need to enroll, do you just call Owner Services to make a reservation? Is there a reservation fee for booking between systems? So much more to figure out.


----------



## vacation dreaming

dioxide45 said:


> I think there is confusion with this. Sales reps will try to convert from StaOptions to Marriott points to make it easy for people to understand, but in reality it is a valuation of the underlying deeded week. So a 2BR Plat+ at WKV is worth 4,050 points. This falls in line with a deeded high season week at Canyon Villas which are 4,175 DC points.


I had the same thought.  It is within reason based on Marriott property in the area, but Vistana converted those units into as many points as Maui so there will be some unhappy owners.


----------



## dioxide45

vacation dreaming said:


> I had the same thought.  It is within reason based on Marriott property in the area, but Vistana converted those units into as many points as Maui so there will be some unhappy owners.


True, but a WKV owner can still *theoretically* use StarOptions to book in Hawaii. The big wildcard is, if they value Hawaii very high (which they will), will those Hawaii owners all take DC points and end up staving VSN of Hawaii inventory. Only time will tell. I long predicted that weeks would be based on the value of similar units at Marriott resorts in the area.


----------



## travelhacker

dioxide45 said:


> True, but a WKV owner can still *theoretically* use StarOptions to book in Hawaii. The big wildcard is, if they value Hawaii very high (which they will), will those Hawaii owners all take DC points and end up staving VSN of Hawaii inventory. Only time will tell. I long predicted that weeks would be based on the value of similar units at Marriott resorts in the area.


Yep. I own small 1 bedrooms at WKV and they are not really equivalent to the studios at Canyon Villas. It'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

I think resale weeks will be restricted from converting to DC. 

While it would be nice to have a bit of a backdoor into DC, I'm not holding my breath. 

I bought into WKV because of the VSN, but I did know that the VSN could be very different. Because they are deeded weeks and Kierland is very desirable during peak season, I wasn't worried about either using or renting.


----------



## vacation dreaming

dioxide45 said:


> True, but a WKV owner can still *theoretically* use StarOptions to book in Hawaii. The big wildcard is, if they value Hawaii very high (which they will), will those Hawaii owners all take DC points and end up staving VSN of Hawaii inventory. Only time will tell. I long predicted that weeks would be based on the value of similar units at Marriott resorts in the area.


Agree.  As a Hawaii owner myself, I think VSN will likely be starved.  I never got the value out of VSN especially with my OF unit.


----------



## KACTravels

CPNY said:


> Did she confirm these conversion rates?



For the previous conversion rates, in today's text she only confirmed today Westin Flex @ 28.84 and Kierland Platinum @ 36.57


----------



## CPNY

vacation dreaming said:


> Agree.  As a Hawaii owner myself, I think VSN will likely be starved.  I never got the value out of VSN especially with my OF unit.


I doubt you’ll get the value of it in the DC exchange as well.


----------



## KACTravels

I’m curious, has anyone else heard from anyone within Vistana today about this soft launch? Or has anyone else heard any other details today?


----------



## William Seward

KCATravels,

Thank you for the information and I know don't shoot the messenger.

I was told it will be a combined reservation system from several source. Maybe that the difference from a soft to a hard start. If I read your post correctly it states "each year you choose if you elect or not, If you don't elect then it will work exactly as it does now" but you can't do the conversion on the fly you have to make your vacation plans 8 month ahead of you decide to go out side of you're program (MVC or Vistana). My hope were a combined reservation system were the conversion is done automatically in the background. That's based on which program you log into from, MVC or Vistana. But you make reservation across the board into both programs freely without a time limit. Still am.

As you stated,  Kierland Plat 148,100 it's 36.57 so election value is 4050. Does that mean 4050 MVC points. Is their a chart illustration the point structure for MVC properties. Basically what does 4,040 MVC credit points get you?

Thanks again and I'm looking for to the official email.

Bill Seward


----------



## dioxide45

William Seward said:


> KCATravels,
> 
> Thank you for the information and I know don't shoot the messenger.
> 
> I was told it will be a combined reservation system from several source. Maybe that the difference from a soft to a hard start. If I read your post correctly it states "each year you choose if you elect or not, If you don't elect then it will work exactly as it does now" but you can't do the conversion on the fly you have to make your vacation plans 8 month ahead of you decide to go out side of you're program (MVC or Vistana). My hope were a combined reservation system were the conversion is done automatically in the background. That's based on which program you log into from, MVC or Vistana. But you make reservation across the board into both programs freely without a time limit. Still am.
> 
> As you stated,  Kierland Plat 148,100 it's 36.57 so election value is 4050. Does that mean 4050 MVC points. Is their a chart illustration the point structure for MVC properties. Basically what does 4,040 MVC credit points get you?
> 
> Thanks again and I'm looking for to the official email.
> 
> Bill Seward


Here are the MVC points charts;


			https://vacationpointexchange.com/pointschart/points_charts_2023.pdf


----------



## travelhacker

KACTravels said:


> I’m curious, has anyone else heard from anyone within Vistana today about this soft launch? Or has anyone else heard any other details today?


I haven't heard anything, but I am 100% positive that something is up...not just from this thread.

I am an admin on a facebook group and I have gotten multiple requests from Marriott Sales agents to joins...it hasn't ever happened, and I've gotten multiple people wanting to join today.

Super anecdotal, but I think there's enough smoke that something is up.


----------



## vacation dreaming

CPNY said:


> I doubt you’ll get the value of it in the DC exchange as well.


I guess I will have a bigger variety of bad uses for it! The devil is in the details.


----------



## alexadeparis

Just got my welcome call for a check in at WKV tomorrow and they wanted to set up a sales meeting to "discuss the big changes that just occurred this week", so we will see.


----------



## dioxide45

If they somehow open up VSN to Marriott DC point bookings, then I don't see how they can exclude mandatory resale weeks from the new program. I suspect they will dump unreserved Flex inventory into the MVC Exchange Company and that will be what Marriott owners are restricted to booking. Unless of course a Vistana owner decides to reserve Marriott inventory, then their Vistana inventory should move to MVC Exchange. The mechanics of how cross booking works is perhaps the most important detail. Even more important than conversion rates.


----------



## dioxide45

If a soft launch is just slapping up some new signage, I am kind of underwhelmed.


----------



## alexadeparis

live anecdotal reporting of a presentation today on one of the Marriott Facebook groups is as follows: 
"The take away was that Starwood Owners will have to buy into Marriott’s Trust Points to be able to use the System and there are now 70 Resorts.  According to the [salesperson], Marriott has worked extremely hard to be fair to all existing Owners (Marriott and Starwood)."


----------



## KACTravels

The rep defined a “soft launch” as having firm information they can share and the hard start with being able to use the new system within 90 days.


----------



## dioxide45

KACTravels said:


> The rep defined a “soft launch” as having firm information they can share and the hard start with being able to use the new system within 90 days.


They've been sharing "soft" information for many months... The problem with them sharing anything is that unless I can see it in writing, I can't use it for the basis of anything.


----------



## dioxide45

alexadeparis said:


> live anecdotal reporting of a presentation today on one of the Marriott Facebook groups is as follows:
> "The take away was that Starwood Owners will have to buy into Marriott’s Trust Points to be able to use the System and there are now 70 Resorts.  According to the [salesperson], Marriott has worked extremely hard to be fair to all existing Owners (Marriott and Starwood)."


I hope that isn't the case. Thousands of buyers were told in the past year that just buying Sheraton or Westin Flex would be enough to get them in. Now if they are told they have to buy into the DC trust, there are going to be some heated arguments come the next owner update...


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I hope that isn't the case. Thousands of buyers were told in the past year that just buying Sheraton or Westin Flex would be enough to get them in. Now if they are told they have to buy into the DC trust, there are going to be some heated arguments come the next owner update...


I hope that is the case, no one on the vistana side will pony up more money and things will essentially stay as is


----------



## daviator

CPNY said:


> I hope that is the case, no one on the vistana side will pony up more money and things will essentially stay as is


OK, at the risk of putting my foot in my mouth... I also hope that these changes are more theoretical than actual in terms of people taking advantage of them.

Years ago... decades, actually, when I purchased my first SVO (now Vistana) timeshare, one of the reasons I decided to buy it, instead of buying in the Marriott program or any other program, was that I felt that both the Westin resorts themselves and the guests who used them were of a somewhat different sort than those at Marriott properties.  The Westin weeks were pricier than the Marriott weeks, and it just seemed like the guests were of a higher caliber, with fewer kids running around screaming, etc.  That sounds a bit elitist and maybe it is, but I have found the environment at the Westin properties to be less chaotic than at the Marriott properties, and that's something I value.

Nearly twenty years later, I still believe this to be true, on the whole.  I have family members who own in the MVC system and I've spent lots of time at those resorts too, and I just feel like they attract a different crowd.  Not saying one is better or worse, just that I usually prefer the Westin guests and vibe to the Marriott guests and vibe, to the extent there is a difference.

So I'm not looking forward to any great invasion of folks from the Marriott side and hope it doesn't really happen.

This isn't intended as a slam on anyone, and of course it's a generalization that doesn't apply universally.  But I worry about the homogenization of the network, which I think will be to the detriment of those of us on the Vistana side.  (I am certain there are Marriott owners who think THEIR resorts are better... different strokes for different folks!)


----------



## dsmrp

So what is Vistana sales going to peddle between now and June (hard start)? Additional DC trust points? Or continuing with the Westin and Sheraton flexes?

I'm thinking any email we get now will be short on details.  And the inducements to attend an owner update will be less. We generally avoided owner updates, so not a big loss.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Happening today - Balloon’s and all!

Should I take one for the team?
Robin refuses - so no benefit.








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45

dsmrp said:


> So what is Vistana sales going to peddle between now and June (hard start)? Additional DC trust points? Or continuing with the Westin and Sheraton flexes?


I suspect they continue to sell their Flex trust points. Nothing has changed except a few signs.


----------



## dioxide45

DavidnRobin said:


> Happening today - Ballon’s and all!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Photos?


----------



## tamu_bu

If the speculated 36.5 is correct for WKV plat, our 67,000 (1 BR, small) which gets spring training at Kierland, won't even trade into a studio at Canyon Villas. That's is if I understand the conversation math properly.


----------



## CPNY

DavidnRobin said:


> Happening today - Balloon’s and all!
> 
> Should I take one for the team?
> Robin refuses - so no benefit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


DO IT PLEASE


----------



## CPNY

daviator said:


> OK, at the risk of putting my foot in my mouth... I also hope that these changes are more theoretical than actual in terms of people taking advantage of them.
> 
> Years ago... decades, actually, when I purchased my first SVO (now Vistana) timeshare, one of the reasons I decided to buy it, instead of buying in the Marriott program or any other program, was that I felt that both the Westin resorts themselves and the guests who used them were of a somewhat different sort than those at Marriott properties.  The Westin weeks were pricier than the Marriott weeks, and it just seemed like the guests were of a higher caliber, with fewer kids running around screaming, etc.  That sounds a bit elitist and maybe it is, but I have found the environment at the Westin properties to be less chaotic than at the Marriott properties, and that's something I value.
> 
> Nearly twenty years later, I still believe this to be true, on the whole.  I have family members who own in the MVC system and I've spent lots of time at those resorts too, and I just feel like they attract a different crowd.  Not saying one is better or worse, just that I usually prefer the Westin guests and vibe to the Marriott guests and vibe, to the extent there is a difference.
> 
> So I'm not looking forward to any great invasion of folks from the Marriott side and hope it doesn't really happen.
> 
> This isn't intended as a slam on anyone, and of course it's a generalization that doesn't apply universally.  But I worry about the homogenization of the network, which I think will be to the detriment of those of us on the Vistana side.  (I am certain there are Marriott owners who think THEIR resorts are better... different strokes for different folks!)


This is spot on! And you have every right to be elitist. Marriott owners consider themselves to be “Marriott snobs” as the multiple Marriott employees told me in the past. 

I agree, Westin was a higher end product and Marriott resorts are overrun with exactly what you described.


----------



## KACTravels

tamu_bu said:


> If the speculated 36.5 is correct for WKV plat, our 67,000 (1 BR, small) which gets spring training at Kierland, won't even trade into a studio at Canyon Villas. That's is if I understand the conversation math properly.





Or even get a 2BD during Spring Training:  148,100 = 4,050


----------



## CPNY

KACTravels said:


> View attachment 49928
> Or even get a 2BD during Spring Training:  148,100 = 4,050


WKV is def much better than CV


----------



## KACTravels

DavidnRobin said:


> Happening today - Balloon’s and all!
> 
> Should I take one for the team?
> Robin refuses - so no benefit.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Where are you?  I would love some confirmation of what they told me at Kierland on Monday and today via text.


----------



## rickandcindy23

DavidnRobin said:


> Happening today - Balloon’s and all!
> 
> Should I take one for the team?
> Robin refuses - so no benefit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you at Westin?  We are at Westin North.  I am not going on a timeshare presentation, but I was going to go to Cannery Mall today to look into a couple of resale Westin Ka'anapali North or South towers weeks to buy for us to use.  I am unsure whether to do it now or wait until the devaluation happens.


----------



## daviator

KACTravels said:


> View attachment 49928
> Or even get a 2BD during Spring Training:  148,100 = 4,050


Seems like they've "tried to be fair to both sides" – they've just tried a little harder to be fair to Marriott owners at the expense of Vistana owners.

So if weeks are easily bookable from both sides at 8 months, the result is going to be that Marriott owners wanting to go to Phoenix are going to book first into WKV.  After all, it's both nicer and cheaper, in DPs, than Canyon Villas.

Meanwhile, Vistana owners mostly won't be able to get into either property, because they'll compete with Marriott owners for WKV and they won't have enough DC points to get into Canyon Villas, at least in the size they need.

So I hope that the inventory of Vistana weeks available to book with DC points is pretty limited.


----------



## pacman777

KACTravels said:


> View attachment 49928
> Or even get a 2BD during Spring Training:  148,100 = 4,050



Don't forget about the DP "skim"... probably why you're seeing the difference. Read up on it in the Marriott forum.


----------



## CPNY

rickandcindy23 said:


> Are you at Westin?  We are at Westin North.  I am not going on a timeshare presentation, but I was going to go to Cannery Mall today to look into a couple of resale Westin Ka'anapali North or South towers weeks to buy for us to use.  I am unsure whether to do it now or wait until the devaluation happens.


If they allow mandatory owners to convert SO to DC points, resales might not be devalued. Although I’d doubt they will let mandatory owners in, I’m sure it’s just for enrolled VSN owners.


----------



## CPNY

pacman777 said:


> Don't forget about the DP "skim"... probably why you're seeing the difference. Read up on it in the Marriott forum.


Isn’t skim for trying to book back into your own resort?


----------



## travelhacker

tamu_bu said:


> If the speculated 36.5 is correct for WKV plat, our 67,000 (1 BR, small) which gets spring training at Kierland, won't even trade into a studio at Canyon Villas. That's is if I understand the conversation math properly.





KACTravels said:


> View attachment 49928
> Or even get a 2BD during Spring Training:  148,100 = 4,050


So if you look at the points chart, notice how when you add the studio and 1 bedroom it is higher than the 2 bedroom?

My guess is that they value Westin Kierland small 1 bedrooms at somewhere around 1600 - 1800 DP.

EDIT: I'm talking about platinum to be clear.


----------



## tamu_bu

CPNY said:


> WKV is def much better than CV


Agreed. And the non verified 36.5 (I refuse to go to one hundredths as if this is so highly calibrated) doesn't evev equate to the CV studio??? Let's see... WKV small 1br vs CV studio. Well if that's for real, they've made the decision a no-brainer.

I hold out hope for a different conversation or program altogether but I won't hold my breath.


----------



## tamu_bu

travelhacker said:


> So if you look at the points chart, notice how when you add the studio and 1 bedroom it is higher than the 2 bedroom?
> 
> My guess is that they value Westin Kierland small 1 bedrooms at somewhere around 1600 - 1800 DP.
> 
> EDIT: I'm talking about platinum to be clear.


Dividing by the unofficial 36.5 it equals 1,834.


----------



## travelhacker

tamu_bu said:


> Agreed. And the non verified 36.5 (I refuse to go to one hundredths as if this is so highly calibrated) doesn't evev equate to the CV studio??? Let's see... WKV small 1br vs CV studio. Well if that's for real, they've made the decision a no-brainer.
> 
> I hold out hope for a different conversation or program altogether but I won't hold my breath.


So remember, that that's what a 2 bedroom equates to.

In SVN, we are used to the studio (or smaller 1 bedroom) + 1 bedroom being equal to the 2 bedroom. That is not the case with DP.

As a result, I think the value for studios (or small 1 bedrooms) will be higher than the 2 bedroom.

It's a bit of a weird situation because when Marriott sold weeks, they really didn't sell sides of a lockoff unit like Vistana did.


----------



## travelhacker

tamu_bu said:


> Dividing by the unofficial 36.5 it equals 1,834.


Crap, math is hard. It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out. That's just comparing to the DP chart for a studio. The 1 bedroom at Kierland is most definitely not a studio, but it's also not quite like the CV 1 bedrooms either.


----------



## daviator

CPNY said:


> Isn’t skim for trying to book back into your own resort?


I think there are multiple ways they skim.  One other way is by charging more for the two sides of a lockoff individually than the value of the entire lockoff, as has been pointed out.  Presumably the owner of that unit who trades it for DPs is getting the 2BR value, and then Marriott can go and get more for it.


----------



## rickandcindy23

daviator said:


> I think there are multiple ways they skim.  One other way is by charging more for the two sides of a lockoff individually than the value of the entire lockoff, as has been pointed out.  Presumably the owner of that unit who trades it for DPs is getting the 2BR value, and then Marriott can go and get more for it.


Exactly.  Emmy (iconnections) talked about this.  She and Peter bought a two bedroom lockoff, fixed week, Oceanfront Lahaina tower, came with DC points, and they thought they would do two weeks with it, and it cost extra DC points to book the studio one week and the 1 bedroom a second week.  She was angry.  Rumor has it that she sold her fixed week.  She was pretty angry about it, when we visited her a few years ago.


----------



## daviator

rickandcindy23 said:


> Exactly.  Emmy (iconnections) talked about this.  She and Peter bought a two bedroom lockoff, fixed week, Oceanfront Lahaina tower, came with DC points, and they thought they would do two weeks with it, and it cost extra DC points to book the studio one week and the 1 bedroom a second week.  She was angry.  Rumor has it that she sold her fixed week.  She was pretty angry about it, when we visited her a few years ago.


I hope it isn't possible for them to change that way that works in the Vistana system.  The ability to turn one week in the lockoff into two weeks (one in each side) was absolutely fundamental to each of my purchases.  We don't have kids and rarely reserve an entire lockoff at once.  If they implemented something like that for Vistana units, I would be out looking for a class action attorney.


----------



## travelhacker

daviator said:


> I hope it isn't possible for them to change that way that works in the Vistana system.  The ability to turn one week in the lockoff into two weeks (one in each side) was absolutely fundamental to each of my purchases.  We don't have kids and rarely reserve an entire lockoff at once.  If they implemented something like that for Vistana units, I would be out looking for a class action attorney.


Just to clarify, In this case Emmy could have booked the 1 bedroom and studio using the weeks reservation in MVC, rather than using DP.


----------



## rickandcindy23

travelhacker said:


> Just to clarify, In this case Emmy could have booked the 1 bedroom and studio using the weeks reservation in MVC, rather than using DP.


How do you mean?  She owns a fixed week and had both sides of the lockoff for one fixed week.  They use the same exact week every year.  Maybe I do not understand.  

Marriott should have just managed both systems without combining them.  It's ridiculous that they are combining.


----------



## DavidnRobin

CPNY said:


> DO IT PLEASE



Nope - they want me/us to shuttle to Nanea.
Sorry - we only have today/tomorrow left.

I only found out about this because I hadn’t gone to the concierge about resort credit conversion using our StarOptions. The Front Desk gave me bad info for Resort Credit when we checked in - glad I checked.

If it rains tomorrow I may go to check out as individual- their promos won’t help us - except for maybe the $150 resort credit.

We will be back in Sept - whatever they are offering will still be there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DavidnRobin

Photo





For Desk Use Only
I tried to grab one, but informed I could not.

Looks like combined Marriott and Vistana resorts - can’t read fine print (sorry - bad lighting).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DavidnRobin

rickandcindy23 said:


> Are you at Westin? We are at Westin North. I am not going on a timeshare presentation, but I was going to go to Cannery Mall today to look into a couple of resale Westin Ka'anapali North or South towers weeks to buy for us to use. I am unsure whether to do it now or wait until the devaluation happens.



We are at South Resort.
Not going to do it (most likely).
Almost got Robin to go (for $150 resort credit), but they were getting more complicated (need to take shuttle to Nanea… booked, but opening just came up… etc). They even said they could send someone down to meet me (probably after they saw our portfolio).

Remember that OF is not part of Westin Flex.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mowogo

DavidnRobin said:


> Photo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For Desk Use Only
> I tried to grab one, but informed I could not.
> 
> Looks like combined Marriott and Vistana resorts - can’t read fine print (sorry - bad lighting).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Members of the Vistana Signature Network will first need to elect to receive Club Points to travel to a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Mowogo said:


> Members of the Vistana Signature Network will first need to elect to receive Club Points to travel to a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property.



At what cost?
Will my ability to continue to reserve through VSN at 8 months be hindered?

They need to be careful here…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mowogo

DavidnRobin said:


> At what cost?
> Will my ability to continue to reserve through VSN at 8 months be hindered?
> 
> They need to be careful here…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is the question everyone is going to seek, I was just pointing out one line at the bottom that I could actually read which implies that VSN is staying intact as a completely separate exchange.


----------



## daviator

It also says that Harborside and WRMV are not initially participating in the new scheme.


----------



## robertk2012

CPNY said:


> If they allow mandatory owners to convert SO to DC points, resales might not be devalued. Although I’d doubt they will let mandatory owners in, I’m sure it’s just for enrolled VSN owners.


Mandatory are enrolled and pay for the VSN program.  I understand perks like status and hotel conversations not applying to resale.  I don’t feel it would be fair to allow others to book your inventory for a program that you are forced to pay for without reciprocal benefits.


----------



## CPNY

DavidnRobin said:


> At what cost?
> Will my ability to continue to reserve through VSN at 8 months be hindered?
> 
> They need to be careful here…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hope it won’t!! I have a year or two since Harborside won’t be included until 2024


----------



## CPNY

daviator said:


> It also says that Harborside and WRMV are not initially participating in the new scheme.


That makes me happy, I hope it’s a permanent thing


----------



## travelhacker

rickandcindy23 said:


> How do you mean?  She owns a fixed week and had both sides of the lockoff for one fixed week.  They use the same exact week every year.  Maybe I do not understand.
> 
> Marriott should have just managed both systems without combining them.  It's ridiculous that they are combining.


Now a reading comprehension fail to go with my math fail .

I missed the part about it being a fixed week. Yeah, in this case the skim would have definitely hosed her from being able to do consecutive weeks. She could have locked off but because of the fixed week, she'd only be able to make the reservations for the same week and wouldn't be able to do consecutive.


----------



## Venter

KACTravels said:


> View attachment 49928
> Or even get a 2BD during Spring Training:  148,100 = 4,050


In Marriott world they call that the 'skim'.  If you own a week at Canyon Villas you will also not be able to book a full week when you convert.


----------



## Venter

daviator said:


> Seems like they've "tried to be fair to both sides" – they've just tried a little harder to be fair to Marriott owners at the expense of Vistana owners.
> 
> So if weeks are easily bookable from both sides at 8 months, the result is going to be that Marriott owners wanting to go to Phoenix are going to book first into WKV.  After all, it's both nicer and cheaper, in DPs, than Canyon Villas.
> 
> Meanwhile, Vistana owners mostly won't be able to get into either property, because they'll compete with Marriott owners for WKV and they won't have enough DC points to get into Canyon Villas, at least in the size they need.
> 
> So I hope that the inventory of Vistana weeks available to book with DC points is pretty limited.


Remember that is what you will get for your converted week. It may be more points to book at WKV.  We will have to wait and see.


----------



## cubigbird

Mowogo said:


> Members of the Vistana Signature Network will first need to elect to receive Club Points to travel to a Marriott Vacation Club resort or property.



But will Club Points owners have to elect something to travel to a Vistana property???  How does it work from the MVC owner side???


----------



## robertk2012

More importantly will they only be able to choose from elected inventory.


cubigbird said:


> But will Club Points owners have to elect something to travel to a Vistana property???  How does it work from the MVC owner side???


----------



## KACTravels

Well….Here we go!  I pressed the rep that we talked to on Monday for the conversion ratios for Sheraton Flex. We stupidly converted some SVV deeded weeks into Flex and they assured me that they knew the Conversions for both Flex, Nanea and Aventuras (as listed in my earlier  posts.). She is now back pedaling, although I think she thought she was telling me what she knew. Here is her texts to me this afternoon.

“My apologies I just got into trouble because what I shared was just an email from another rep and not official numbers.  They said until it's all confirmed and in writing from the company l, that we are not allowed to share info thats not official. I can share that we do know for a fact that there will be no enrollment fee and each year you can elect to use your ownership in the Marriott world and there's no cost to it because you're automatically enrolled. Yay That was a concern of yours. Also that there will be no change to your deeds and you can use them the same as you do now and choose not to use destination points. Also you will be Chairman's club automatically because you are 5 star with us. It has nothing to do with the amt of points you would have in their world. It's automatic because of your status with us and you will be grandfathered in. More details to come when we have official documentation ”

“No need to apologize you didn't get me in trouble. I just jumped the gun like many other reps who like to keep their owners informed. Until we have solid numbers in writing we are not supposed to give exact numbers. Those should be released during the soft launch. We have been told that the Flex products convert higher than weeks. We assume that places on the ocean like your Korn should get a good conversion. Even the Kierland rate isn't confirmed in writing. Like I shared it was an email from another associate and since it didn't come from corporate, that we have to wait for official info. As soon as I know you will know. I do promise you that. “

We will likely rescind. ‍I’m embarrassed as I know better.


----------



## robertk2012

What SVV conversion rate did they give you?


----------



## VacationForever

@KACTravels I am reading that you are already 5* Elite, so no enrollment fees and the ability to book MVC resorts make sense.  Did you ask about resale voluntary and mandatory weeks and resale Flex points?


----------



## KACTravels

robertk2012 said:


> What SVV conversion rate did they give you?



Previous post “Conversion rates have been set for the following

Nanea 23:1
Westin Flex 28:1
Adventures 30:1
Sheraton Flex 32:1
Deeded Weeks TBD - she mentioned anywhere from 28:1 - 50:1 (We own WKORN OF and nobody would quote a conversion because they have not been told)


----------



## KACTravels

VacationForever said:


> @KACTravels I am reading that you are already 5* Elite, so no enrollment fees and the ability to book MVC resorts make sense.  Did you ask about resale voluntary and mandatory weeks and resale Flex points?



I did not ask about Mandatory or Voluntary resales, as we had already retro’d our resales.


----------



## dsmrp

KACTravels said:


> “... there will be no enrollment fee and each year you can elect to use your ownership in the Marriott world and there's no cost to it because you're automatically enrolled. Yay That was a concern of yours. Also that there will be no change to your deeds and you can use them the same as you do now and choose not to use destination points. Also you will be Chairman's club automatically because you are 5 star with us. It has nothing to do with the amt of points you would have in their world. It's automatic because of your status with us and you will be grandfathered in. More details to come when we have official documentation ”



If 5* will be Chairman's club level,  I hope 4* and 3* will be grandfathered respectively into Presidential and Executive or Executive and Select levels.  Those levels mainly seems to help with the reservation window if using DC points.  I'm sure there are other benefits, but I only skimmed the Marriott FAQs.


----------



## Mowogo

dsmrp said:


> If 5* will be Chairman's club level,  I hope 4* and 3* will be grandfathered respectively into Presidential and Executive or Executive and Select levels.  Those levels mainly seems to help with the reservation window if using DC points.  I'm sure there are other benefits, but I only skimmed the Marriott FAQs.


I’m interested in what the levels will be, as there are some 3* that would transfer to Executive even at 32:1 which could Really be beneficial to that group of owners.


----------



## CPNY

KACTravels said:


> Well….Here we go!  I pressed the rep that we talked to on Monday for the conversion ratios for Sheraton Flex. We stupidly converted some SVV deeded weeks into Flex and they assured me that they knew the Conversions for both Flex, Nanea and Aventuras (as listed in my earlier  posts.). She is now back pedaling, although I think she thought she was telling me what she knew. Here is her texts to me this afternoon.
> 
> “My apologies I just got into trouble because what I shared was just an email from another rep and not official numbers.  They said until it's all confirmed and in writing from the company l, that we are not allowed to share info thats not official. I can share that we do know for a fact that there will be no enrollment fee and each year you can elect to use your ownership in the Marriott world and there's no cost to it because you're automatically enrolled. Yay That was a concern of yours. Also that there will be no change to your deeds and you can use them the same as you do now and choose not to use destination points. Also you will be Chairman's club automatically because you are 5 star with us. It has nothing to do with the amt of points you would have in their world. It's automatic because of your status with us and you will be grandfathered in. More details to come when we have official documentation ”
> I
> “No need to apologize you didn't get me in trouble. I just jumped the gun like many other reps who like to keep their owners informed. Until we have solid numbers in writing we are not supposed to give exact numbers. Those should be released during the soft launch. We have been told that the Flex products convert higher than weeks. We assume that places on the ocean like your Korn should get a good conversion. Even the Kierland rate isn't confirmed in writing. Like I shared it was an email from another associate and since it didn't come from corporate, that we have to wait for official info. As soon as I know you will know. I do promise you that. “
> 
> We will likely rescind. ‍I’m embarrassed as I know better.


More sales lies. I thought I heard they were working on the legality of using both programs in their marketing materials before a combined program would be announced. I guess here we are.


----------



## DavidnRobin

CPNY said:


> More sales lies. I thought I heard they were working on the legality of using both programs in their marketing materials before a combined program would be announced. I guess here we are.







And balloons!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VacationForever

So..... 3/24/22 end of business day has passed us by.  No email, nothing. Now I am thinking 3/24/23...


----------



## Mowogo

VacationForever said:


> So..... 3/24/22 end of business day has passed us by.  No email, nothing. Now I am thinking 3/24/23...


This was soft launch day, with information trickling in and branding kicked off I would say we are definitely on final path forward in the next 3 months.


----------



## CPNY

DavidnRobin said:


> And balloons!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think this just allows them to embellish more. They actually have more marketing materials to dangle in front of unsuspecting owners. Watch them acquire a TON more deeded weeks and sell flex. Marriott is just awful


----------



## CPNY

Mowogo said:


> This was soft launch day, with information trickling in and branding kicked off I would say we are definitely on final path forward in the next 3 months.


What’s changed with the branding? Same brands


----------



## Mowogo

CPNY said:


> What’s changed with the branding? Same brands


The branding change is bringing the MVC brand advertised with the Vistana brands, instead of everything being separate brands as it has been.


----------



## KACTravels

I just heard “Abound” May be the new name


----------



## cubigbird

KACTravels said:


> I just heard “Abound” May be the new name


Bonvoys Abound??  Lucky us!!


----------



## CPNY

KACTravels said:


> I just heard “Abound” May be the new name


That’s as bad as bonvoy…. Marriott needs new leadership. They need better investments into IT and Marketing


----------



## cubigbird

Mowogo said:


> This was soft launch day, with information trickling in and branding kicked off I would say we are definitely on final path forward in the next 3 months.



The soft launch that told us ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.


----------



## dsmrp

Mowogo said:


> I’m interested in what the levels will be, as there are some 3* that would transfer to Executive even at 32:1 which could Really be beneficial to that group of owners.


That could be me, as I'm 3*, but own at SVR, so will likely be a corner case with a pretty high conversion ratio.


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> Seems like they've "tried to be fair to both sides" – they've just tried a little harder to be fair to Marriott owners at the expense of Vistana owners.


The points amounts that I posted are the amount to book a prime week at Canyon Villas. Looking at how many points a Canyon Villas owner gets if they elect points, it is much lower. 3,900 for Plat Plus (I think these are holiday weeks) and only 2,950 for Platinum 2BR weeks. Based on comparison to Canyon Villas, it seems WKV is getting a good DC point valuation. As it should.


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> The points amounts that I posted are the amount to book a prime week at Canyon Villas. Looking at how many points a Canyon Villas owner gets if they elect points, it is much lower. 3,900 for Plat Plus (I think these are holiday weeks) and only 2,950 for Platinum 2BR weeks. Based on comparison to Canyon Villas, it seems WKV is getting a good DC point valuation.


So my take on the whole DP system is this: if you want to exchange your week in the DP system, you can do so, but you will receive a lot less value than what you give up.  Essentially you pay a cost for the trading flexibility/access, and that cost is that you'll receive some combination of a smaller room, fewer days, or a lower-quality property than what you've given up.

It seems like Interval might still be a better way of exchanging outside of VSN?  Who knows how all of these changes will impact inventory with II though.  There's less booking certainty with II, it's usually request, wait and hope.


----------



## dioxide45

So far, we don't know anything new that we didn't know yesterday. Other than some rumors were true. Though we knew they have been working on a combined program for years. I guess we know now that Vistana owners will have to elect DC points. Though that was speculated for years too and seems to be common sense. Still no real mechanics of how it works, but if Vistana owners are electing DC points, then when they elect their ownership goes into the MVC Exchange company for any DC points to reserve, whether that be at 13 months or 8 months or even 2. One question I have that isn't answered; what happens to unreserved Flex trust inventory at 8 months. That used to go to VSN. Does that still happen or will it go to MVC Exchange?


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> So my take on the whole DP system is this: if you want to exchange your week in the DP system, you can do so, but you will receive a lot less value than what you give up.  Essentially you pay a cost for the trading flexibility/access, and that cost is that you'll receive some combination of a smaller room, fewer days, or a lower-quality property than what you've given up.
> 
> It seems like Interval might still be a better way of exchanging outside of VSN?  Who knows how all of these changes will impact inventory with II though.  There's less booking certainty with II, it's usually request, wait and hope.


Generally that is how it works in the current Marriott DC program. There was a 5-15% skim on elected weeks overall depending on the resort. The week you give up gives you DC points that may or may not be enough to book back into the same resort, depending on the time of year. You may be able to elect your Platinum week for DC points and then book a lower time of year and have points left over. Or you may want to book prime time and need to book a smaller unit or less time. This will likely be very true in Hawaii where Vistana only sold one season with the same point values throughout the year. With DC, you may be able to elect points and travel in October for fewer points than you own and have some left over. Or if you want to go in the summer or a holiday week, you are better to just use VSN.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> So far, we don't know anything new that we didn't know yesterday. Other than some rumors were true. Though we knew they have been working on a combined program for years. I guess we know now that Vistana owners will have to elect DC points. Though that was speculated for years too and seems to be common sense. Still no real mechanics of how it works, but if Vistana owners are electing DC points, then when they elect their ownership goes into the MVC Exchange company for any DC points to reserve, whether that be at 13 months or 8 months or even 2. One question I have that isn't answered; what happens to unreserved Flex trust inventory at 8 months. That used to go to VSN. Does that still happen or will it go to MVC Exchange?


Those flex owners can only book in the VSN if they didn’t elect so I’d assume the inventory would stay as well.


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> So far, we don't know anything new that we didn't know yesterday. Other than some rumors were true. Though we knew they have been working on a combined program for years. I guess we know now that Vistana owners will have to elect DC points. Though that was speculated for years too and seems to be common sense. Still no real mechanics of how it works, but if Vistana owners are electing DC points, then when they elect their ownership goes into the MVC Exchange company for any DC points to reserve, whether that be at 13 months or 8 months or even 2. One question I have that isn't answered; what happens to unreserved Flex trust inventory at 8 months. That used to go to VSN. Does that still happen or will it go to MVC Exchange?


That's one of the big questions.  If it stays in VSN, then nothing really changes except when a Flex owner elects to choose DC points.

But if all the unreserved Flex inventory goes into MVC, then presumably the Flex owners lose their priority for reserving with Vistana for the 8-0 month period.  That means the DC people can rush in and snatch those up and leave Flex owners stuck with Marriott properties.  So anyone who bought into Flex expecting to use it for Vistana properties might be unhappy, they'd be forced to book 8-12 months ahead to get them.

All of this is making my head hurt.


----------



## CPNY

daviator said:


> That's one of the big questions.  If it stays in VSN, then nothing really changes except when a Flex owner elects to choose DC points.
> 
> But if all the unreserved Flex inventory goes into MVC, then presumably the Flex owners lose their priority for reserving with Vistana for the 8-0 month period.  That means the DC people can rush in and snatch those up and leave Flex owners stuck with Marriott properties.  So anyone who bought into Flex expecting to use it for Vistana properties might be unhappy, they'd be forced to book 8-12 months ahead to get them.
> 
> All of this is making my head hurt.


As much as they want to combine, it’s going to act like an easier interval exchange for eligible ownerships (those with the ability to convert to bonvoy points now). Nothing more, nothing less. I think they will sell both points at all locations. Do you want bucket number 1 or bucket number 2?


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Those flex owners can only book in the VSN if they didn’t elect so I’d assume the inventory would stay as well.





daviator said:


> That's one of the big questions.  If it stays in VSN, then nothing really changes except when a Flex owner elects to choose DC points.
> 
> But if all the unreserved Flex inventory goes into MVC, then presumably the Flex owners lose their priority for reserving with Vistana for the 8-0 month period.  That means the DC people can rush in and snatch those up and leave Flex owners stuck with Marriott properties.  So anyone who bought into Flex expecting to use it for Vistana properties might be unhappy, they'd be forced to book 8-12 months ahead to get them.
> 
> All of this is making my head hurt.


Reading this. I agree with @CPNY . I think the Flex inventory will drop into VSN at 8 months. The question is though, what inventory do they take from the Flex trusts when a Vistana owner elects DC points? I suspect a Flex owner will probably have to convert an entire contract, not just partial contracts. So if they have an 81K and 44K Flex contracts, they can't elect just 50K of the points, or even 20K. They need to choose which one to elect and which one not to. I don't know if this is really how it would work, but it keeps things cleaner.

Back to the question of what gets pulled from the trust. Do they take out the prime resorts and prime seasons to move to the MVC Exchange Company? We don't know and probably will never really know. Timeshare companies aren't known for transparency when it comes to the mechanics behind the curtain.


----------



## robertk2012

dioxide45 said:


> So far, we don't know anything new that we didn't know yesterday. Other than some rumors were true. Though we knew they have been working on a combined program for years. I guess we know now that Vistana owners will have to elect DC points. Though that was speculated for years too and seems to be common sense. Still no real mechanics of how it works, but if Vistana owners are electing DC points, then when they elect their ownership goes into the MVC Exchange company for any DC points to reserve, whether that be at 13 months or 8 months or even 2. One question I have that isn't answered; what happens to unreserved Flex trust inventory at 8 months. That used to go to VSN. Does that still happen or will it go to MVC Exchange?


I don’t see how legally they could move that inventory.


----------



## dioxide45

robertk2012 said:


> I don’t see how legally they could move that inventory.


Yeah, thinking it through a little more, I expect it to stay in VSN. The question is, what gets pulled when a Flex owner does elect DC points.


----------



## robertk2012

Most of the deeds in the trusts are trash anyways.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> Reading this. I agree with @CPNY . I think the Flex inventory will drop into VSN at 8 months. The question is though, what inventory do they take from the Flex trusts when a Vistana owner elects DC points? I suspect a Flex owner will probably have to convert an entire contract, not just partial contracts. So if they have an 81K and 44K Flex contracts, they can't elect just 50K of the points, or even 20K. They need to choose which one to elect and which one not to. I don't know if this is really how it would work, but it keeps things cleaner.
> 
> Back to the question of what gets pulled from the trust. Do they take out the prime resorts and prime seasons to move to the MVC Exchange Company? We don't know and probably will never really know. Timeshare companies aren't known for transparency when it comes to the mechanics behind the curtain.


After I wrote what I wrote I thought to myself, what inventory would they keep In the VSN? Well, considering the Flex inventory is left over junk weeks, I’d assume both systems would get left over junk weeks. The silver lining in all of this is that HRA won’t be able to convert until 2024 and I’m hoping it’s one of those things where 2024 turns into 2026 and then 2028. In the end i hope they can never convert and it’s only available in the VSN. 

I think for retro deeded weeks it’s def the full unit converted, flex may be the same based on the contract but do they sell flex contracts based on corresponding unit sizes and seasons? Let’s say they sell based on unit size, season, and resort then yes I can see you having to enroll the whole contract. If they don’t sell each VOI with a unit or mix or units to back up the contract amount, then maybe it will be a sliding scale and Marriott will determine what they deposit or it could be like the flex option chart that it takes to deposit in interval.


----------



## jabberwocky

CPNY said:


> Those flex owners can only book in the VSN if they didn’t elect so I’d assume the inventory would stay as well.


If it is a resale Flex package it can’t book in VSN. It would stay as a home resort booking within the particular collection.  Right now is suspect most flex out there are developer purchases, but that could change over time. It’s not clear how this would translate into DP points for resale Flex.


----------



## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> If it is a resale Flex package it can’t book in VSN. It would stay as a home resort booking within the particular collection.  Right now is suspect most flex out there are developer purchases, but that could change over time. It’s not clear how this would translate into DP points for resale Flex.


True, so basically the resale voluntary junk flex units will go to Marriott to do what they see fit. AWESOME! Let the DC owners book Arizona in July lol


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> True, so basically the resale voluntary junk flex units will go to Marriott to do what they see fit. AWESOME! Let the DC owners book Arizona in July lol


If a WKV weeks owner elects DC points, Marriott can pull some week to make available in the DC program. A lot will depend on owner's willingness to elect DC points for their weeks.

Over time, I wonder if Marriott will continue to feed Vistana deedbacks and foreclosures back into the Flex trusts or if they will start moving them into the DC Trust. Also, Marriott hasn't been one to continue to sell weeks like Vistana has. If Vistana gets an OF Maui week or an event week, they turn around and sell that as a week. When Marriott got back similar Marriott weeks, they conveyed them to the trust. Not sure what will happen going forward but I would suspect Marriott will want to start making good Vistana weeks more easily available in the combined program. So what is junk today will get better over time. Not all Flex inventory is junk. Sheraton Flex isn't the best, but I suspect there are some good Westin weeks in the Westin Flex. Just no Maui Oceanfront. We know that the flex trusts own some good inventory at the mountain resorts.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

Reading through this thread I'm certainly looking forward to "VSN For Dummies" being published because I just want to know how to  take a vacation


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> If a WKV weeks owner elects DC points, Marriott can pull some week to make available in the DC program. A lot will depend on owner's willingness to elect DC points for their weeks.
> 
> Over time, I wonder if Marriott will continue to feed Vistana deedbacks and foreclosures back into the Flex trusts or if they will start moving them into the DC Trust. Also, Marriott hasn't been one to continue to sell weeks like Vistana has. If Vistana gets an OF Maui week or an event week, they turn around and sell that as a week. When Marriott got back similar Marriott weeks, they conveyed them to the trust. Not sure what will happen going forward but I would suspect Marriott will want to start making good Vistana weeks more easily available in the combined program. So what is junk today will get better over time. Not all Flex inventory is junk. Sheraton Flex isn't the best, but I suspect there are some good Westin weeks in the Westin Flex. Just no Maui Oceanfront. We know that the flex trusts own some good inventory at the mountain resorts.


Let’s hope that when all this happens, I’m done with my timeshares and I have enough money to buy a condo at the reef at Atlantis lol. In the end, I’ll rent Harborside and keep my SVV for interval exchanges and getaways. It’s going to take quite a bit of time to really see the program change drastically for the worse. It may be a PITA for a while but before online booking via the dashboard, reserving vistana star option bookings was also a big PITA. thanks for making us go backwards Marriott haha.


----------



## CPNY

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> Reading through this thread I'm certainly looking forward to "VSN For Dummies" being published because I just want to know how to  take a vacation


Chapter 1. GIVE MARRIOTT TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.
Chapter 2. Pretend Marriott is the greatest timeshare company on the planet
Chapter 3. GIVE MARRIOTT TENS OF THOUSANDS OF MORE DOLLARS to achieve some status level that means a hill of beans. 
Chapter 4. You die
Chapter 5. Your kids give away your Marriott points because in the future there are much cooler ways to vacation in outer space, also they bought vacation club points that are good for stays in a 5 star Resort by Elon Musk on Mars. 
The End


----------



## KACTravels

OK all you smart people...Please help me with if you think 118,000 Sheraton Flex are better than SVV 2Bd Fountains 81,000 SO + SVV 2 Bd Biannual 81,000 every other year. I have until next Thursday to rescind.  We traded in the 2 SVV deeds for 118K Sheraton Flex Options and paid $17K with about $600 more in Maintenance Fees per year. I feel really silly for asking, because I would automatically tell some one to rescind, research and buy resale, but I don’t know that that applies in our case.

Advantage for Sheraton Flex is 9 home resorts as options with home resort priority and vs SVV which we never use as “Home”.  And perceived advantage of Flexibility to elect to go with Marriott with the Sheraton Flex Options. 

Our Sales reps claims “Because once the completion happens there will be weeks that can't be upgraded. Marriott does not do upgrades using your old dollars for a new product.“. For those of you that know both systems (for how they exist today) Is this true? 

I thought it made since to upgrade into Sheraton Flex before the finalized program because we only use SVV for 8 month SO Vistana or occasionally II Trades and I thought S Flex would be more flexible with Marriott. Now, I just don’t know. Thanks in advance for your thoughts in this.


----------



## jabberwocky

KACTravels said:


> OK all you smart people...Please help me with if you think 118,000 Sheraton Flex are better than SVV 2Bd Fountains 81,000 SO + SVV 2 Bd Biannual 81,000 every other year. I have until next Thursday to rescind.  We traded in the 2 SVV deeds for 118K Sheraton Flex Options and paid $17K with about $600 more in Maintenance Fees per year. I feel really silly for asking, because I would automatically tell some one to rescind, research and buy resale, but I don’t know that that applies in our case.
> 
> Advantage for Sheraton Flex is 9 home resorts as options with home resort priority and vs SVV which we never use as “Home”.  And perceived advantage of Flexibility to elect to go with Marriott with the Sheraton Flex Options.
> 
> Our Sales reps claims “Because once the completion happens there will be weeks that can't be upgraded. Marriott does not do upgrades using your old dollars for a new product.“. For those of you that know both systems (for how they exist today) Is this true?
> 
> I thought it made since to upgrade into Sheraton Flex before the finalized program because we only use SVV for 8 month SO Vistana or occasionally II Trades and I thought S Flex would be more flexible with Marriott. Now, I just don’t know. Thanks in advance for your thoughts in this.


Hmmm…121k SO vs 118k and you pay $17k upfront and $600 more per year in MF while giving up two deeds.

Tough call.









Just kidding. Of course you should rescind!


----------



## dioxide45

KACTravels said:


> OK all you smart people...Please help me with if you think 118,000 Sheraton Flex are better than SVV 2Bd Fountains 81,000 SO + SVV 2 Bd Biannual 81,000 every other year. I have until next Thursday to rescind.  We traded in the 2 SVV deeds for 118K Sheraton Flex Options and paid $17K with about $600 more in Maintenance Fees per year. I feel really silly for asking, because I would automatically tell some one to rescind, research and buy resale, but I don’t know that that applies in our case.
> 
> Advantage for Sheraton Flex is 9 home resorts as options with home resort priority and vs SVV which we never use as “Home”.  And perceived advantage of Flexibility to elect to go with Marriott with the Sheraton Flex Options.
> 
> Our Sales reps claims “Because once the completion happens there will be weeks that can't be upgraded. Marriott does not do upgrades using your old dollars for a new product.“. For those of you that know both systems (for how they exist today) Is this true?
> 
> I thought it made since to upgrade into Sheraton Flex before the finalized program because we only use SVV for 8 month SO Vistana or occasionally II Trades and I thought S Flex would be more flexible with Marriott. Now, I just don’t know. i appreciate in advance your thoughts.


I would expect SVV Prime (platinum) weeks to get about 2750 Club points. This is inline with Grande Vista Vistana Resort may get fewer just due to the resort not being as sought after as SVV. Perhaps more like the Royal and Sabal Palms 2BR Red weeks. They only receive about 2,150 Club points when elected. Of course one of yours is EOY. If conversion rates mentioned earlier are true, your 118,000 Sheraton Flex would only get about 3,700 Club Points. I think the rescind and research applies in your case. I am not really sure what/why you bought. YOu aren't really getting more HomeOptions/StarOptions than you were getting already and you are paying more in annual fees and $17K to boot. Regardless of how this all plays out, if you already have StarOptions with your two weeks, then you gain nothing except more fees and lost money by keeping the deal. RESCIND.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Hmmm…162k SO vs 112k and you pay $17k upfront and $600 more per year in MF while giving up two deeds.
> 
> Tough call.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just kidding. Of course you should rescind!


One of the deeds was just EOY, but the answer is the same. RESCIND!


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> One of the deeds was just EOY, but the answer is the same. RESCIND!


Sorry. Read it too quickly. Fixed. But still don’t understand trading in good deeds that have SO for flex.


----------



## CPNY

KACTravels said:


> OK all you smart people...Please help me with if you think 118,000 Sheraton Flex are better than SVV 2Bd Fountains 81,000 SO + SVV 2 Bd Biannual 81,000 every other year. I have until next Thursday to rescind.  We traded in the 2 SVV deeds for 118K Sheraton Flex Options and paid $17K with about $600 more in Maintenance Fees per year. I feel really silly for asking, because I would automatically tell some one to rescind, research and buy resale, but I don’t know that that applies in our case.
> 
> Advantage for Sheraton Flex is 9 home resorts as options with home resort priority and vs SVV which we never use as “Home”.  And perceived advantage of Flexibility to elect to go with Marriott with the Sheraton Flex Options.
> 
> Our Sales reps claims “Because once the completion happens there will be weeks that can't be upgraded. Marriott does not do upgrades using your old dollars for a new product.“. For those of you that know both systems (for how they exist today) Is this true?
> 
> I thought it made since to upgrade into Sheraton Flex before the finalized program because we only use SVV for 8 month SO Vistana or occasionally II Trades and I thought S Flex would be more flexible with Marriott. Now, I just don’t know. Thanks in advance for your thoughts in this.


Your SVR had SO so you’d be eligible in whatever new program. If you bought with the intention of electing to DC, just go and buy DC points. 

Rescind and keep what you have. Wasting 17K and increasing your annual fee is absurd since you’re only getting a handful more options. I’d buy WKV 2 bed plat for the VSN and cut down everything else


----------



## Eric B

CPNY said:


> After I wrote what I wrote I thought to myself, what inventory would they keep In the VSN? Well, considering the Flex inventory is left over junk weeks, I’d assume both systems would get left over junk weeks. The silver lining in all of this is that HRA won’t be able to convert until 2024 and I’m hoping it’s one of those things where 2024 turns into 2026 and then 2028. In the end i hope they can never convert and it’s only available in the VSN.
> 
> I think for retro deeded weeks it’s def the full unit converted, flex may be the same based on the contract but do they sell flex contracts based on corresponding unit sizes and seasons? Let’s say they sell based on unit size, season, and resort then yes I can see you having to enroll the whole contract. If they don’t sell each VOI with a unit or mix or units to back up the contract amount, then maybe it will be a sliding scale and Marriott will determine what they deposit or it could be like the flex option chart that it takes to deposit in interval.



My thoughts on the subject is that there will be a fairly complicated judgement involved with the Flex inventory as well as the deeded fixed and floating inventory because it's not all owned by vacationers - there's a fair amount that the developer owns and either uses to satisfy booking requests by Flex owners (for the Flex inventory in the 12-8 month window), by deeded week owners (for the floating week and unsold deeded-week inventory in the 12-18 month window), and by VSN members (for all in the 0-8 month window).  There is already a certain amount of competition for the bookings in the VSN window because Marriott does rent out units outside of the VSN as well as the bulk deposits into interval.  Given a shift to a unified reservation system on the hardware side, having separate exchange systems overlaid on it should be possible to allow allocations to happen between DC and VSN that can be adjusted for demand.

I don't really think the impact will be as great on avid tuggers that book as soon as they are able to and plan years in advance for their vacations.  The average TS owner doesn't do that (even though they probably should).  I haven't seen any reported numbers for when reservations are made using VSN, but in other systems I use it's considerably lower than the reservation opening windows.  Folks on tug do seem to know a lot more about how the systems work than the average owner; anecdotally, I spoke with someone the other day that didn't know they could book a different week than their fixed week at Virgin Grand Villas or how to do it if they wanted to and had owned there for 20 years.


----------



## KACTravels

I used to tell my kids that if they couldn't tell me what they were doing, they probably shouldn't be doing it.  I intentionally didn't post our offer/deal in this TUG forum because I knew deep down that it was a bad deal and decision . We will rescind - Thank you for setting me straight. I feel like I just participated in a TUG confessional!


----------



## CPNY

Eric B said:


> My thoughts on the subject is that there will be a fairly complicated judgement involved with the Flex inventory as well as the deeded fixed and floating inventory because it's not all owned by vacationers - there's a fair amount that the developer owns and either uses to satisfy booking requests by Flex owners (for the Flex inventory in the 12-8 month window), by deeded week owners (for the floating week and unsold deeded-week inventory in the 12-18 month window), and by VSN members (for all in the 0-8 month window).  There is already a certain amount of competition for the bookings in the VSN window because Marriott does rent out units outside of the VSN as well as the bulk deposits into interval.  Given a shift to a unified reservation system on the hardware side, having separate exchange systems overlaid on it should be possible to allow allocations to happen between DC and VSN that can be adjusted for demand.
> 
> I don't really think the impact will be as great on avid tuggers that book as soon as they are able to and plan years in advance for their vacations.  The average TS owner doesn't do that (even though they probably should).  I haven't seen any reported numbers for when reservations are made using VSN, but in other systems I use it's considerably lower than the reservation opening windows.  Folks on tug do seem to know a lot more about how the systems work than the average owner; anecdotally, I spoke with someone the other day that didn't know they could book a different week than their fixed week at Virgin Grand Villas or how to do it if they wanted to and had owned there for 20 years.


What I got out of this is, Marriott controls the inventory anyway so they could starve the VSN intentionally and frustrate owners enough to give in and buy DC points. No dice, I’ll rent!


----------



## Eric B

CPNY said:


> What I got out of this is, Marriott controls the inventory anyway so they could starve the VSN intentionally and frustrate owners enough to give in and buy DC points. No dice, I’ll rent!



They already have that power to a certain extent for certain ownership types (Flex and floating week) by juggling the weeks they choose to rent out versus those that owners can access via VSN.  Of course, the incentives have to be there for them to decide that they will block off all the high-demand non-deeded weeks from VSN and make them solely available to rental customers.  The fact that it doesn't already happen kind of indicates to me that the incentives aren't there for them to take that kind of action - perhaps because of the difficulty in renting those particular weeks to folks and the potential reputational impact for them.  The same issues would occur if they were to purposely favor the DC owners over Vistana ones.  My bottom line view is that it is a possibility but has not happened yet and might not ever happen so I'm not going to worry about it.  I'm also not going to buy any DC points from Marriott because I like what I own.


----------



## CPNY

Eric B said:


> They already have that power to a certain extent for certain ownership types (Flex and floating week) by juggling the weeks they choose to rent out versus those that owners can access via VSN.  Of course, the incentives have to be there for them to decide that they will block off all the high-demand non-deeded weeks from VSN and make them solely available to rental customers.  The fact that it doesn't already happen kind of indicates to me that the incentives aren't there for them to take that kind of action - perhaps because of the difficulty in renting those particular weeks to folks and the potential reputational impact for them.  The same issues would occur if they were to purposely favor the DC owners over Vistana ones.  My bottom line view is that it is a possibility but has not happened yet and might not ever happen so I'm not going to worry about it.  I'm also not going to buy any DC points from Marriott because I like what I own.


I’m not going to worry either, one thing I know is there will always be owners to rent from and If I really want to go somewhere I can just buy there (ridiculous maint fees and all)


----------



## lily28

how will harborside weeks work in the merger?  i own a summer week there with high demand in summer but poor staroptions to maintenance fee ratio


----------



## pchung6

I have been checking Vistana website everyday 3-4 times every few hours. I haven’t noticed any MVC related messages. The only thing very obvious is Vistana website is damn broken 90% of the time.


----------



## dioxide45

pchung6 said:


> I have been checking Vistana website everyday 3-4 times every few hours. I haven’t noticed any MVC related messages. The only thing very obvious is Vistana website is damn broken 90% of the time.


What? You haven't seen this? 
_[Removed faked image to prevent...]_


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> What? You haven't seen this?
> View attachment 49993


Wait... waaat?  You are RICH!


----------



## pchung6

dioxide45 said:


> What? You haven't seen this?
> View attachment 49993


This is a joke, right? Nothing from my end.


----------



## vacationtime1

dioxide45 said:


> What? You haven't seen this?
> View attachment 49993


Hmmm.  Doesn't show on my Dashboard details -- for either of my Kierland VOI's or my WKORV.

But is anyone expecting consistency from Marriott?  (81K SO's converting to 7250 DC points would be nice)


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> What? You haven't seen this?
> View attachment 49993


So you finally posted it hahaha


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> What? You haven't seen this?
> View attachment 49993


I am assuming this is a bit of Photoshop magic, right?  If so, touché.

The tip-off is the 11:1 ratio for SVR...  

I had to check my calendar to make sure it wasn't April 1 yet!


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> I am assuming this is a bit of Photoshop magic, right?  If so, touché.
> 
> The tip-off is the 11:1 ratio for SVR...


Hey now, it was SVV. Not SVR!



VacationForever said:


> Wait... waaat?  You are RICH!


Yeah, especially when I can give myself however many DC points as I want


----------



## CPNY

lily28 said:


> how will harborside weeks work in the merger?  i own a summer week there with high demand in summer but poor staroptions to maintenance fee ratio


No one knows but you can do really well with Harborside in interval. I know many who get awesome trades in interval with their HRA summer weeks. You can easily pick up Marriott Aruba weeks. 

In the fine print it says Harborside won’t be available to be elected into the program until 2023 for 2024 reservations. It also doesn’t give a specific timeline for Marriott owners to book it but they say more specific information will be given at a later date. There could be so many reasons why that is. We shall see how it all plays out. I hope Harborside never becomes eligible to be elected and it all stays in the VSN


----------



## TSKing

daviator said:


> I am assuming this is a bit of Photoshop magic, right?  If so, touché.
> 
> The tip-off is the 11:1 ratio for SVR...
> 
> I had to check my calendar to make sure it wasn't April 1 yet!


Definitely a hoax!  I see nothing on my Dashboard if MVC points. When I recently attended a “special “ sales presentation I was told the exchange would be Westin 26 and Sheraton 42.  As people in this board say, who believes what salespeople say! But I think it may be close and I think those having Sheraton will be a little screwed. Of course, you don’t have to convert it to MVC.


----------



## TSKing

alexadeparis said:


> live anecdotal reporting of a presentation today on one of the Marriott Facebook groups is as follows:
> "The take away was that Starwood Owners will have to buy into Marriott’s Trust Points to be able to use the System and there are now 70 Resorts.  According to the [salesperson], Marriott has worked extremely hard to be fair to all existing Owners (Marriott and Starwood)."



I had a virtual sales presentation in February, and was basically advised the same thing.  He said that a Vistana owner will not have access to trade for Marriott properties.  Only through an external exchange as it is already.  So unless you buy MVC points or maybe there will be some offer that you can change a Vistana for Marriott points, for a price of course.  The latter is totally hypothetical.  But I own MVC points and I also own Sheraton and Westin options.  So because I own in both, I will have the opportunity to convert to MVC.  I don't know the details of that either, is it a one time thing, is it an annual election or what???  Who knows.  As usual they keep us in suspense.  And in the meantime try to sell you something based on their "knowledge" of what is to come!


----------



## dioxide45

TSKing said:


> I had a virtual sales presentation in February, and was basically advised the same thing.  He said that a Vistana owner will not have access to trade for Marriott properties.  Only through an external exchange as it is already.  So unless you buy MVC points or maybe there will be some offer that you can change a Vistana for Marriott points, for a price of course.  The latter is totally hypothetical.  But I own MVC points and I also own Sheraton and Westin options.  So because I own in both, I will have the opportunity to convert to MVC.  I don't know the details of that either, is it a one time thing, is it an annual election or what???  Who knows.  As usual they keep us in suspense.  And in the meantime try to sell you something based on their "knowledge" of what is to come!


Based on the limited information in the marketing material we have seen images of. This doesn't seem to be the case. I am sure when one goes to a MVC presentation, it will be that you need to buy DC Trust points. Go to a Vistana presentation and you will need to buy Flex. What you need depends on where you tour and in the end you don't need it at all.


----------



## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> No one knows but you can do really well with Harborside in interval. I know many who get awesome trades in interval with their HRA summer weeks. You can easily pick up Marriott Aruba weeks.
> 
> In the fine print it says Harborside won’t be available to be elected into the program until 2023 for 2024 reservations. It also doesn’t give a specific timeline for Marriott owners to book it but they say more specific information will be given at a later date. There could be so many reasons why that is. We shall see how it all plays out. I hope Harborside never becomes eligible to be elected and it all stays in the VSN


I was told that HRA is difficult because of different investor or something like that. No plans to include it as of yet. I was also told that they have to update the conversion rates as sunset bay and coral vista at WSJ got low conversion numbers and SVV and SVR got high conversion numbers. He was trying to give me my conversion numbers for my weeks from yesterday but noticed the numbers were no longer there.


----------



## Red elephant

TSKing said:


> Definitely a hoax!  I see nothing on my Dashboard if MVC points. When I recently attended a “special “ sales presentation I was told the exchange would be Westin 26 and Sheraton 42.  As people in this board say, who believes what salespeople say! But I think it may be close and I think those having Sheraton will be a little screwed. Of course, you don’t have to convert it to MVC.


I was told my 2 bedroom non lockoff at SVR was going to be converted to 2600. I did not get the full amount but that range.


----------



## Red elephant

dioxide45 said:


> So far, we don't know anything new that we didn't know yesterday. Other than some rumors were true. Though we knew they have been working on a combined program for years. I guess we know now that Vistana owners will have to elect DC points. Though that was speculated for years too and seems to be common sense. Still no real mechanics of how it works, but if Vistana owners are electing DC points, then when they elect their ownership goes into the MVC Exchange company for any DC points to reserve, whether that be at 13 months or 8 months or even 2. One question I have that isn't answered; what happens to unreserved Flex trust inventory at 8 months. That used to go to VSN. Does that still happen or will it go to MVC Exchange?


Unreserved flex trust at 8 months goes into VSN just like unreserved home options and weeks.


----------



## VacationForever

I wonder if the new program has provision for combining ownership from both systems to get owners to a higher ownership level.  For instance if you are Presidential in MVC and 4* Elite in Vistana, you get enough points to get to Chairman Club in the MVC system.


----------



## Red elephant

cubigbird said:


> But will Club Points owners have to elect something to travel to a Vistana property???  How does it work from the MVC owner side???


They will use their DC point equivalent for that Vistana property and book like they do now.


----------



## Red elephant

VacationForever said:


> I wonder if the new program has provision for combining ownership from both systems to get owners to a higher ownership level.  For instance if you are Presidential in MVC and 4* Elite in Vistana, you get enough points to get to Chairman Club in the MVC system.


That is a good question. He did not mention a point equivalent to ownership level. 
I am 5* elite and I was told I am now chairman and titanium elite with bonvoy. He read off the benefits which are much better than 5 * elite especially if you use DC points. Something about 30% discount with 60 day bookings or something.


----------



## dioxide45

What I don't understand is, if they have sales touting these changes why not send out an email or have an announcement on their websites? I don't get it. A soft launch seems to be to allow them to make some changes based on owner feedback from presentations?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

dioxide45 said:


> Based on the limited information in the marketing material we have seen images of. This doesn't seem to be the case. I am sure when one goes to a MVC presentation, it will be that you need to buy DC Trust points. Go to a Vistana presentation and you will need to buy Flex. What you need depends on where you tour and in the end you don't need it at all.



IMHO...Buying Flex or DC trust points is a deal-killer for us. Enrollment of deeds for points is fine but worry about disposing of trusts/exit if black swan of MVC/Vistana value - hard to walk because not protected by state real estate laws. Potential for too many games by developer/changing rules. The developers have moved to trusts because it is in their favor - avoiding legal protections that deed laws provide and control over the rules.


----------



## DanCali

KACTravels said:


> Just received this text back from the rep I had the meeting with on Monday on if the "soft launch" has actually happened.  Her reply:
> 
> "Yes it has officially happened. I am excited to share the new info. As it comes in I will share.  (Conversion for) Kierland Plat 148,100 it's 36.57 so election value is 4050. Yes it's confirmed it's just an election at no cost. There is no buy in on the Marriott side. It's automatically enrolled. So each year you choose if you elect or not. If you don't elect then it will work exactly as it does now in the Vistana network."  "Yes the owners will get the info. Yes Flex is higher than weeks in their system. We don't have Kaanapali yet"




Good luck to them getting savvy owners to convert at that rate. WKV Plat rents for around $4000-$4500.  The rental value of 4050 DC points is $2800, maybe slightly less. So, around a $1500 disparity in value lost in the points conversion.

Another way to look at it - There are actually decent exchanges to be had within the MVC system for 4050 points, but a peak summer week at Newport Coast, for example is 4725 DC points. Converting to points, an owner would have a tough time making that exchange - they'd have to rent another 700 points for around $500. On the other hand, one can rent out WKV for $4000 rather easily, and rent a summer week 2BR at NCV for $3000 and come out $1000 ahead. So again, a disparity of at least $1500 in value ($1000 inflow, vs $500 outflow).

While most people prefer convenience and may view rental transactions as a hassle, $1500 is too much of a disparity in value to ignore.


----------



## vacationtime1

DanCali said:


> Good luck to them getting savvy owners to convert at that rate. WKV Plat rents for around $4000-$4500.  The rental value of 4050 DC points is $2800, maybe slightly less. So, around a $1500 disparity in value lost in the points conversion.
> 
> Another way to look at it - There are actually decent exchanges to be had within the MVC system for 4050 points, but a peak summer week at Newport Coast, for example is 4725 DC points. Converting to points, an owner would have a tough time making that exchange - they'd have to rent another 700 points for around $500. On the other hand, one can rent out WKV for $4000 rather easily, and rent a summer week 2BR at NCV for $3000 and come out $1000 ahead. So again, a disparity of at least $1500 in value ($1000 inflow, vs $500 outflow).
> 
> While most people prefer convenience and may view rental transactions as a hassle, $1500 is too much of a disparity in value to ignore.


+1
My takeaway was simple:  Marriott does not want my Kierland weeks very much.
Which is fine; I will continue to take my rental profit.
Unless Marriott makes it difficult or impossible to reserve my deeded weeks as I have been doing.


----------



## DanCali

vacationtime1 said:


> +1
> My takeaway was simple:  Marriott does not want my Kierland weeks very much.
> Which is fine; I will continue to take my rental profit.
> Unless Marriott makes it difficult or impossible to reserve my deeded weeks as I have been doing.



I too prefer convenience over hassle. But it comes down to how much you pay for that convenience. I do recall converting a Marriott Newport Coast week to 3475 points and using that for 5 nights at their Waiohai resort in Kauai. That was easier than renting my week out and using that cash to rent points and then book Waiohai but if I did that, I would have come out ahead $300-$400.  That, IMO, was a reasonable price to pay for the convenience. But $1500 - no way...


----------



## Red elephant

dioxide45 said:


> What I don't understand is, if they have sales touting these changes why not send out an email or have an announcement on their websites? I don't get it. A soft launch seems to be to allow them to make some changes based on owner feedback from presentations?


I am inclined to agree with this. It also allows changes from their miscalculations which apparently has already happened with the conversion numbers.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

We got our FINAL email invite today to a virtual presentation where we can learn about all the exciting opportunities we are missing out on around the Marriott/Vistana Consolidation. Meeting is via MS Teams, 90 minutes and both of us must be present. No mention of Bonvoy points. No mention of free coffee and baked goods. No thanks!


----------



## jabberwocky

Red elephant said:


> Unreserved flex trust at 8 months goes into VSN just like unreserved home options and weeks.


Not if it is resale flex.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Not if it is resale flex.


But we really don't know what is held back in the trust at 8 months for those voluntary Flex owners to reserve.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> What I don't understand is, if they have sales touting these changes why not send out an email or have an announcement on their websites? I don't get it. A soft launch seems to be to allow them to make some changes based on owner feedback from presentations?


I agree it's weird - if it's so great they should just launch it.  My guess is that they need to build some sort of inventory pipeline for the combined program without overwhelming the system with demand, otherwise people won't see the point and stick with what they have.  

I just got a call from the concierge at SDO for our arrival tomorrow.  She was touting the new "soft launch" of the combined program in trying to get us to sign up for a presentation.  I didn't bite, but I just might when we arrive just to see what they say (and $200 spending cash never hurts).


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> I agree it's weird - if it's so great they should just launch it.  My guess is that they need to build some sort of inventory pipeline for the combined program without overwhelming the system with demand, otherwise people won't see the point and stick with what they have.
> 
> I just got a call from the concierge at SDO for our arrival tomorrow.  She was touting the new "soft launch" of the combined program in trying to get us to sign up for a presentation.  I didn't bite, but I just might when we arrive just to see what they say (and $200 spending cash never hurts).


I am not really sure what inventory pipeline they would need to build. The Marriott inventory is there and they can't get Vistana inventory into the system right now. I am not aware of any mechanism that will allow Vistana owners to elect DC points yet. Perhaps that is what the website will be down for at the end of the month? With the Marriott DC program back in 2010, they just threw the switch. There will be some growing pains, but this whole "soft launch" is just strange. It really just amounts to a few signs and some balloons. Reps have been talking about this thing for months and this launch hasn't told us anything we didn't already expect.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> But we really don't know what is held back in the trust at 8 months for those voluntary Flex owners to reserve.


We also don't know what is dumped into II or how the inventory is managed overall - and to date, it works pretty well IMO.  I think the recent reports of website problems are more of an IT issue than an inventory issue.  

Realistically the inventory has to balance out at the end of the day.  MVC can't give more DC points to a Vistana owner on average than they are going to charge someone on the MVC side and vice-versa (skim aside).  As you and others have pointed out elsewhere, Vistana has a pretty "flat" points chart in terms of seasons - especially for the Hawaii properties; whereas the MVC chart has been sliced and diced to maximize the points they can extract for a particular week.  I think this is why they have had so much trouble trying to roll this out.  Trying to calculate values for a particular owner week will be too hard to explain (and will tick off Vistana owners).  Even exchanges into II from Vistana use a blended exchange value for the season rather than depositing a specific week.

I don't think SO or Flex/HomeOptions are going to be the "true" currency to exchange into DC with.  They will probably try to say that this is what the conversions are based on, but my guess is there is some sort of blended seasonal exchange value they are calculating in the background which is by nature correlated with SO and DC points, but not an exact amount.  This is probably why we aren't getting any sort of official announcement or points conversion chart.  

Of course, I'm probably wrong, but it's as good a guess as anything else we've seen in the forums to date.


----------



## dsmrp

The Vistana site has a notice of upcoming maintenance downtime of the website.
It's a long downtime, ~8 hours, during a weekday (nite shift) rather than weekend.
I'm speculating they'll be installing updates related to the Marriott integration.


----------



## Living the Dream

I had an “owners update” on Thursday at Desert Willow.  We currently own one week in Kaanapali North with an island view.  I was amazed at how little our sales person knew about the new program, considering how pressed we were to take a meeting.  I didn’t learn much.

First off, my salesman knew nothing about the point conversion values.  All he would say is that we have a good property and that we should have enough points to use with the Marriott system and secure a like type property.  The biggest problem we had, is that in the new system, Marriott owners at a high enough level will be able to reserve a unit in our complex 13 months out, while we, as owners at only the gold level, are only able to reserve at 12 months out.  “Seems reasonable to me” said no Kaanapai owner ever.  We asked what we could do to ensure that we can make reservations 13 months out as well.  Currently, we have 148,100 points with our unit, which is gold level in the Marriott system.  We need 159,000 to get up to Platinum.  At that level, we can make reservations 13 months out.  Or so I am told.

To get to the next level, I was offered three different packages of Westin Flex points.  The first was to buy 44,000 points on an EOY basis.  For this I was quoted $11,440.  The next was to buy 37,000 EY points for $15,085.  The last deal was to buy 148,100 EY points for $53,671.  Closing costs were an additional $1145 on all three.  We ended up buying the smallest deal as we wanted to make sure Maui stays available to us.  I have doubts about it, and am thinking seriously about rescinding. Would love to hear what everyone thinks.


----------



## dioxide45

Living the Dream said:


> I had an “owners update” on Thursday at Desert Willow.  We currently own one week in Kaanapali North with an island view.  I was amazed at how little our sales person knew about the new program, considering how pressed we were to take a meeting.  I didn’t learn much.
> 
> First off, my salesman knew nothing about the point conversion values.  All he would say is that we have a good property and that we should have enough points to use with the Marriott system and secure a like type property.  The biggest problem we had, is that in the new system, Marriott owners at a high enough level will be able to reserve a unit in our complex 13 months out, while we, as owners at only the gold level, are only able to reserve at 12 months out.  “Seems reasonable to me” said no Kaanapai owner ever.  We asked what we could do to ensure that we can make reservations 13 months out as well.  Currently, we have 148,100 points with our unit, which is gold level in the Marriott system.  We need 159,000 to get up to Platinum.  At that level, we can make reservations 13 months out.  Or so I am told.
> 
> To get to the next level, I was offered three different packages of Westin Flex points.  The first was to buy 44,000 points on an EOY basis.  For this I was quoted $11,440.  The next was to buy 37,000 EY points for $15,085.  The last deal was to buy 148,100 EY points for $53,671.  Closing costs were an additional $1145 on all three.  We ended up buying the smallest deal as we wanted to make sure Maui stays available to us.  I have doubts about it, and am thinking seriously about rescinding. Would love to hear what everyone thinks.


Is your WKORV an unqualified week or did you buy it direct?


----------



## Living the Dream

I bought it direct.  The salesman didn’t think it would be a good idea to trade it in.


----------



## dioxide45

Living the Dream said:


> I bought it direct.  The salesman didn’t think it would be a good idea to trade it in.


If you bought it direct, you likely didn't need to buy additional points to be able to use it in the new program. So if that is the only reason why you bought, I would suggest rescinding and waiting until we have more official information. Indications right now seem to indicate that qualified ownerships (direct or requalified) will be able to elect Club Points with no additional purchase.


----------



## dioxide45

I don't know how there can't be an enrollment process for Vistana ownerships to be able to participate. Over on the Marriott weeks side, there is a formal enrollment process where you have to review and agree to certain terms and be provided with additional disclosures. So there is likely to be some formal process to "sign up" even if there is no enrollment fee.


----------



## dioxide45

Copy and pasting from the other thread so we can discuss specific items here.

*• Here are some answers for you from my source: I didn't choose the questions to answer, nor do I have any info about this topic myself, and I posted the response verbatim, so you'll have to take the answers below at face value.

• My source has agreed to do one more round of questions, for now.*

Main question. How is the DC or exchange vehicle being funded with Sheraton/Westin inventory?
*When someone elects to DC points, that inventory gets placed in DC inventory*

does mandatory resale week and voluntary weeks have capability to elect marriott points, or only enrolled weeks are allowed?
*NO resales qualify and once live we will not retro weeks, they are out of luck*

What is the cost, if any, for Vistana owners to participate in the new program (Either an “enrollment fee” or purchase requirement) and is it different if they are already Marriott points owners (trust or enrolled)?
*No cost to enroll in DC points. The VSN club dues will change, more to come, its actually higher but better, no more fees after that*

Is the election for Vistana into DC a one time decision or an annual decision (like currently exchanging for Bonvoy/Interval)?
*Every year you decide what does and does not go in DC. You can split but each VOI can't be split, you owns a 148,100 flex, it all goes in or none of it*

Regarding 3, 4, 5 Star.
*That transfers over to DC Ownership levels as you indicated.*

Does the Vistana level still determine Bonvoy status or is it based on DC Status of Executive, Chairman, Etc.?
*Higher levels of DC status get Bonvoy Titanium. We discussed 3 star 4 star and 5 star. if for some reason you are not at that level but your points convert to DC and it hits that level, you get it*

Can Vistana ownership DC points-equivalence be added onto MVC DC points to achieve a higher status?
*pretty sure the answer is yes*

When (date) will owners actually be able to start electing their Vistana ownership for Club Points?
*This summer for 2023 usage*

When will we be officially notified of this merger, as Vistana owners?
*summer for 2023 usage, pretty much when it happens. This is a soft rollout. Just like when Marriott did it, one day it's old, one day its new*

are the details in contract form or is this information from someone you trust (but still only verbal)
*none of this in contract. As Denise know's My information is accurate and yes owners are trusting us. Sales are brisk already*

Interesting info. My only thought right now is why does WFlex convert at a lower rate than SFlex and Aventuras?
*100,000 SFX gets you 2920, WFX, 3469, Aventuras 3333 sorry, WFX and SFX was backwards, good catch by a poster*

(separate topic)
*FYI HARBORSIDE AND RIVERFRONT .. WON'T BE INCLUDED PROBABLY UNTIL 2024 .everything else is in*

Do 3* and above get _"Platinum for LIFE" or Platinum as long as you maintain TS-Status"_ like current Marriott TS-Owners who are also eligible for "Titanium"?
*yes ownership must be current

With Marriott, you have until Sept 30 (Oct 31 for higher ownership levels) of the year prior to your use year to elect Club Points. So for 2022 use year, Marriott owners had to elect points by Sept 30, 2021. I suspect for Vistana, they will be electing for 2023 use year from the start

I have one more video to watch, will know soon. FYI I CANNOT answer any questions on the MVC side

Conversion for deeded weeks is complicated. Orlando weeks, not great, Lagunamar pretty good, Kanapali good to very good. Pretty much what you would expect !!

Vistana will STOP selling Flex soon enough, I don't have a date. We will then sell DC points. My guess is whatever is not sold will get dumped into DC points plus, as I said, when people elect, those options get dumped in also. Even though TUGers are very skeptical, I can't imagine any Vistana owner isn't thrilled with this info except for resale owners of course. We sold for years, to get to 5 Star and get Platinum for life. Well now MVC says, just get to 3 Star and we will give you it *

Adding additional responses;
*More answers from my source*

Are they still tweaking the program or is it completely set?
*yes, tweaking is a good term. Nanea & St John are getting tweaked as an example. I think some things could change slightly. What I pretty much know won't change is Elite status and what they will get with CLUB POINTS*

How do resale owners retro before this goes live?
*Call a site or the corporate office*

Once VSN dues are raised to match MVC dues, will Vistana owners be able to do Vistana to Marriott exchanges for free through II instead of paying the current discounted exchange fee?
*Each property has their own dues. Remember, a weeks owner will NEVER be a points owners, they will just be able to convert*

I would also like to know if StarOption Banking Fees and Guest Cert Fees also go away if one still uses StarOptions.
*yes, ALL addon fees are going away. The VSM membership fee with be adjusted at a flat rate depending on your Marriott level. I am not ready to give that but I think it's a much better value.*

Assume 1-Developer & 2-Flex are eligible to participate in the DC-Program. *correct*

Assume that Resale-Enrolled [3-Mandatory or 4-Voluntary] can also participate in the DC-Program.
*Sounds like if you a pay a VSN fee, you can convert, if you don't pay a fee you can't*

Will Resale-*Non*-Enrolled [5-Mandatory or 6-Voluntary] units be eligible to participate in the DC-Program for an additional cost?
*resale owner will not be able to convert. I am pretty sure mandatory owners will not be able to convert also.*

Does this mean that all eligible [Developer + Enrolled] Vistana owners get automatically enrolled for "No Fees"?
*We are being told no fee. Can that change ? I have no clue. I can only tell you how I was told to present it to the owners so I think it will stay no fee*

We have heard mixed messages over the past year about WSJ (specifically Sunset Bay platinum) participating in DC conversion at a good exchange level (as good or better than Nanea, WFX etc) previously and had more recently heard that it would not be participating at all (all via owners updates, so we are skeptical). Any confirmation of WSJ in or out and exchange value possibilities?
*great question. They pulled WSJ & Nanea to readjust the conversion. My 30,000 ft view says it was because St John was way to low and will go up and Nanea OF and resort view ere the same which makes no sense so they will fix that. I don't think the FLEX weeks will change at all. I don't see any chance WSJ will be out. My opinion is this is our most expensive resort rental wise so they will want those people in to deposit the weeks/options*

Will there be any changes to banking? Deadline dates?, fees?, banking for 2 years?
*I am pretty sure if you keep your Vistana with Vistana, all those rules will stay the same. good question. As mentioned all additional fees will go away and the CLUB DUES will go up. I can share this nugget, II exchanges will be included in the new CLUB dues. No, I will give them now but all it all it's a win IMHO.*


----------



## dioxide45

Quoting these from the other thread;


alwysonvac said:


> Why did you call out resale owners? What’s the impact?
> 
> Will all “*existing*“ Vistana owners (including “*existing*“ resale owners) be able to elect their Vistana ownership for DC Points? If not, who is excluded?
> 
> Did you mean once LIVE, all future resales purchases will not be eligible for DC Points?


The response specifically was that unqualified (resale non requalified/retroed) weeks won't be able to participate and they will end requalifying weeks as an option when buying.



aeroflygirl said:


> How do resale owners retro before this goes live?


I would suggest calling corporate sales to see what your options are. Or plan a trip in the very near future. I suspect Vistana will use the next couple months to try to push requalification of resale weeks.



kozykritter said:


> Once VSN dues are raised to match MVC dues, will Vistana owners be able to do Vistana to Marriott exchanges for free through II instead of paying the current discounted exchange fee?


Based on one of the replies, the answer seems to be yes. It looks like Vistana to Marriott and Vistana to Vistana exchange fees would be $0. If the fee goes up however, I suspect there will have to be a concerted effort for the owner to enroll in the program. Perhaps no fee, but enrollment will be required.

_What is the cost, if any, for Vistana owners to participate in the new program (Either an “enrollment fee” or purchase requirement) and is it different if they are already Marriott points owners (trust or enrolled)?_
*No cost to enroll in DC points. The VSN club dues will change, more to come, its actually higher but better, no more fees after that*


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> Quoting these from the other thread;
> 
> The response specifically was that unqualified (resale non requalified/retroed) weeks won't be able to participate and they will end requalifying weeks as an option when buying.
> 
> 
> I would suggest calling corporate sales to see what your options are. Or plan a trip in the very near future. I suspect Vistana will use the next couple months to try to push requalification of resale weeks.
> 
> 
> Based on one of the replies, the answer seems to be yes;
> _What is the cost, if any, for Vistana owners to participate in the new program (Either an “enrollment fee” or purchase requirement) and is it different if they are already Marriott points owners (trust or enrolled)?_
> *No cost to enroll in DC points. The VSN club dues will change, more to come, its actually higher but better, no more fees after that*


That last part is very vague so I'm asking for clarification from the representative.


----------



## dioxide45

dioxide45 said:


> When will we be officially notified of this merger, as Vistana owners?
> *summer for 2023 usage, pretty much when it happens. This is a soft rollout. Just like when Marriott did it, one day it's old, one day its new*


Marriott never did a solf rollout of their program. It was a hard cut off on the day of announcement, June 20, 2010. Owners could start enrolling in and electing points right away. Sales was trained on Thur, Fri and the announcement went out to all owners on Sunday. So far we have no announcement from Marriott regarding the new changes forthcoming.


----------



## travelhacker

If all resale owners (including mandatory) can't access the DP program, doesn't that eventually starve the DP program of some of the best VSN resorts like Kierland, the Kaanapali resorts, and Harbourside?

I'm not sure what percentage of deeds at Kierland and Kaanapali are resale, but I'm guessing it's a significant percentage.

The good news is that the "old" VSN should continue to have good access among the mandatory resorts.


----------



## kozykritter

travelhacker said:


> If all resale owners (including mandatory) can't access the DP program, doesn't that eventually starve the DP program of some of the best VSN resorts like Kierland, the Kaanapali resorts, and Harbourside?
> 
> I'm not sure what percentage of deeds at Kierland and Kaanapali are resale, but I'm guessing it's a significant percentage.
> 
> The good news is that the "old" VSN should continue to have good access among the mandatory resorts.


I suspect this is why they are leaking this information out 3 months ahead of time instead of doing the immediate cut over like they did with Marriott when it went to DC points. They want to give a window for resale owners to requalify and participate so they can have more inventory, especially from prime properties.


----------



## dioxide45

travelhacker said:


> If all resale owners (including mandatory) can't access the DP program, doesn't that eventually starve the DP program of some of the best VSN resorts like Kierland, the Kaanapali resorts, and Harbourside?
> 
> I'm not sure what percentage of deeds at Kierland and Kaanapali are resale, but I'm guessing it's a significant percentage.
> 
> The good news is that the "old" VSN should continue to have good access among the mandatory resorts.


I don't know percentages either, but I suspect resale ownerships are less than 10% overall. Vistana is a huge selling machine and we are talking millions of deeds over the entire program.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I am not really sure what inventory pipeline they would need to build. The Marriott inventory is there and they can't get Vistana inventory into the system right now. I am not aware of any mechanism that will allow Vistana owners to elect DC points yet. Perhaps that is what the website will be down for at the end of the month? With the Marriott DC program back in 2010, they just threw the switch. There will be some growing pains, but this whole "soft launch" is just strange. It really just amounts to a few signs and some balloons. Reps have been talking about this thing for months and this launch hasn't told us anything we didn't already expect.


Signs and balloons help the sales rep spew more lies. People will believe the lie because there is confetti and balloons in the room so it will sound real.

Walk into a car dealership with no decorations or signage and speak with a sales rep who tells you there is a sale going on. you’re probably going to be reluctant to trust just his word. 

You then Walk into another car dealership down the road where you see balloons on the hood of a car. without speaking to any sales rep you’re going to automatically assume there is a sale and you’re likely to buy even though the price is the same as it was yesterday before they put balloons up. 

I see balloons and I automatically assume they are trying to upsell the same crap at the same price.


----------



## bizaro86

dioxide45 said:


> Copy and pasting from the other thread so we can discuss specific items here.
> 
> *• Here are some answers for you from my source: I didn't choose the questions to answer, nor do I have any info about this topic myself, and I posted the response verbatim, so you'll have to take the answers below at face value.
> 
> • My source has agreed to do one more round of questions, for now.*
> 
> Main question. How is the DC or exchange vehicle being funded with Sheraton/Westin inventory?
> *When someone elects to DC points, that inventory gets placed in DC inventory*
> 
> does mandatory resale week and voluntary weeks have capability to elect marriott points, or only enrolled weeks are allowed?
> *NO resales qualify and once live we will not retro weeks, they are out of luck*
> 
> What is the cost, if any, for Vistana owners to participate in the new program (Either an “enrollment fee” or purchase requirement) and is it different if they are already Marriott points owners (trust or enrolled)?
> *No cost to enroll in DC points. The VSN club dues will change, more to come, its actually higher but better, no more fees after that*
> 
> Is the election for Vistana into DC a one time decision or an annual decision (like currently exchanging for Bonvoy/Interval)?
> *Every year you decide what does and does not go in DC. You can split but each VOI can't be split, you owns a 148,100 flex, it all goes in or none of it*
> 
> Regarding 3, 4, 5 Star.
> *That transfers over to DC Ownership levels as you indicated.*
> 
> Does the Vistana level still determine Bonvoy status or is it based on DC Status of Executive, Chairman, Etc.?
> *Higher levels of DC status get Bonvoy Titanium. We discussed 3 star 4 star and 5 star. if for some reason you are not at that level but your points convert to DC and it hits that level, you get it*
> 
> Can Vistana ownership DC points-equivalence be added onto MVC DC points to achieve a higher status?
> *pretty sure the answer is yes*
> 
> When (date) will owners actually be able to start electing their Vistana ownership for Club Points?
> *This summer for 2023 usage*
> 
> When will we be officially notified of this merger, as Vistana owners?
> *summer for 2023 usage, pretty much when it happens. This is a soft rollout. Just like when Marriott did it, one day it's old, one day its new*
> 
> are the details in contract form or is this information from someone you trust (but still only verbal)
> *none of this in contract. As Denise know's My information is accurate and yes owners are trusting us. Sales are brisk already*
> 
> Interesting info. My only thought right now is why does WFlex convert at a lower rate than SFlex and Aventuras?
> *100,000 SFX gets you 2920, WFX, 3469, Aventuras 3333 sorry, WFX and SFX was backwards, good catch by a poster*
> 
> (separate topic)
> *FYI HARBORSIDE AND RIVERFRONT .. WON'T BE INCLUDED PROBABLY UNTIL 2024 .everything else is in*
> 
> Do 3* and above get _"Platinum for LIFE" or Platinum as long as you maintain TS-Status"_ like current Marriott TS-Owners who are also eligible for "Titanium"?
> *yes ownership must be current
> 
> With Marriott, you have until Sept 30 (Oct 31 for higher ownership levels) of the year prior to your use year to elect Club Points. So for 2022 use year, Marriott owners had to elect points by Sept 30, 2021. I suspect for Vistana, they will be electing for 2023 use year from the start
> 
> I have one more video to watch, will know soon. FYI I CANNOT answer any questions on the MVC side
> 
> Conversion for deeded weeks is complicated. Orlando weeks, not great, Lagunamar pretty good, Kanapali good to very good. Pretty much what you would expect !!
> 
> Vistana will STOP selling Flex soon enough, I don't have a date. We will then sell DC points. My guess is whatever is not sold will get dumped into DC points plus, as I said, when people elect, those options get dumped in also. Even though TUGers are very skeptical, I can't imagine any Vistana owner isn't thrilled with this info except for resale owners of course. We sold for years, to get to 5 Star and get Platinum for life. Well now MVC says, just get to 3 Star and we will give you it *



Thanks for cross posting for discussion. There are a number of tells that this source is someone in the sales organization, likely a salesperson/manager.

That incentivizes a certain type of response. For example, I think it's very likely they believe resales won't be able to retro after the hard launch, because that is what their training says and that will allow them to push retro hard between now and then. But logically speaking that doesn't seem likely. MVC has allowed their own legacy weeks to be enrolled as a promotion with a purchase on an extremely regular basis. It seems incredibly unlikely to me that vistana weeks would not be included there.


----------



## CPNY

bizaro86 said:


> Thanks for cross posting for discussion. There are a number of tells that this source is someone in the sales organization, likely a salesperson/manager.
> 
> That incentivizes a certain type of response. For example, I think it's very likely they believe resales won't be able to retro after the hard launch, because that is what their training says and that will allow them to push retro hard between now and then. But logically speaking that doesn't seem likely. MVC has allowed their own legacy weeks to be enrolled as a promotion with a purchase on an extremely regular basis. It seems incredibly unlikely to me that vistana weeks would not be included there.


I thought the same thing. This sounds like a “get the word out to owners and tell them to BUY NOW”!! 

I am sure I if I walk into a sales office in a year and say here is $30,000 for 2500 DC Points but I’ll only do the deal if you retro my resale weeks, I bet they will say sure thing!


----------



## vistana101

Super excited for the platinum for life as a 3-star member. And very glad we didn't spend the proposed $200,000 to become 5-star elite 5 years ago (which is a great example of why not to buy more timeshares from the developer to achieve certain perks that can later get devalued).


----------



## bizaro86

CPNY said:


> I thought the same thing. This sounds like a “get the word out to owners and tell them to BUY NOW”!!
> 
> I am sure I if I walk into a sales office in a year and say here is $30,000 for 2500 DC Points but I’ll only do the deal if you retro my resale weeks, I bet they will say sure thing!



Or they'll respectfully say I'm so sorry sir we can't retro into the VSN but we'd be happy to enroll them into the DC along with your purchase of DC points at today's special price that I've written upside down for you.


----------



## dioxide45

bizaro86 said:


> Thanks for cross posting for discussion. There are a number of tells that this source is someone in the sales organization, likely a salesperson/manager.
> 
> That incentivizes a certain type of response. For example, I think it's very likely they believe resales won't be able to retro after the hard launch, because that is what their training says and that will allow them to push retro hard between now and then. But logically speaking that doesn't seem likely. MVC has allowed their own legacy weeks to be enrolled as a promotion with a purchase on an extremely regular basis. It seems incredibly unlikely to me that vistana weeks would not be included there.


I agree. I do think there will be a retro type program as there is today in the MVC world. It may just not be the $10K + $5K like Vistana has today. It will be the minimum 3,000 DC points to enroll a resale/unqualified week. The more weeks you want to enroll, the more points you have to buy. It will just be a lot more expensive than it is today and may be part of their *somewhat* annual summer promotion. If it goes this way, the cost to retro almost triples.


----------



## dioxide45

echino said:


> Resale owners are excluded, even resale owners of mandatory weeks with StarOptions who are part of VSN and paying VSN fees, but you mentioned VSN fees are going up. Please confirm: *VSN fees are going up for resale owners*, even though resale owners do not get any benefit?


Hopefully Denise's rep will provide clarification, but I suspect there will be an enrollment step that will require owners to agree to the Destinations Club terms and the increased fee. While they could change the fee structure of VSN, it causes issues with unqualified mandatory weeks. I just don't see them doing this across the board. I know they say "no enrollment", but I don't see a way around it. There just won't be a fee to enroll. Unqualified weeks will be blocked from enrollment.


----------



## bizaro86

dioxide45 said:


> I agree. I do think there will be a retro type program as there is today in the MVC world. It may just not be the $10K + $5K like Vistana has today. It will be the minimum 3,000 DC points to enroll a resale/unqualified week. The more weeks you want to enroll, the more points you have to buy. It will just be a lot more expensive than it is today and may be part of their *somewhat* annual summer promotion. If it goes this way, the cost to retro almost triples.



I agree with this. Speaking only for myself, as someone unwilling to spend anything close to $15k on enrollment whether they charge $15k or $30k makes no difference. Obviously if one was on the fence maybe their opinion is different.

The general thrust of my comment was that it is wise to consider the incentives of and information available to anyone you're using as a source. There are enough hints in those responses that I am more than 95% certain that the source is in sales, so considering that when deciding whether to act on the information is wise.

For example - someone considering rushing to enroll 1 week for $15k might be better served buying 4 more resales and enrolling with an Aruba purchase in 2 years if they still think they need DC access. (Or maybe not, that would be a lot of vacation time...)


----------



## Red elephant

bizaro86 said:


> Or they'll respectfully say I'm so sorry sir we can't retro into the VSN but we'd be happy to enroll them into the DC along with your purchase of DC points at today's special price that I've written upside down for you.


I was under the impression that any retro’s or ROFR goes into DC points.


----------



## dioxide45

Red elephant said:


> I was under the impression that any retro’s or ROFR goes into DC points.


With retros, Marriott/Vistana doesn't actually take back the deed. They just enroll it in the program to be eligible to elect Club Points. It doesn't mean that the owner has to elect Club Points. For Vistana retros, they could just use them in VSN which as a voluntary week they would have been prevented from using before retro. ROFR will certainly be put into one of the trusts.

I wonder going forward if Vistana will continue to sell high end weeks such as Maui oceanfront as weeks or will all those deeds go into the a trust?


----------



## Red elephant

dioxide45 said:


> With retros, Marriott/Vistana doesn't actually take back the deed. They just enroll it in the program to be eligible to elect Club Points. It doesn't mean that the owner has to elect Club Points. For Vistana retros, they could just use them in VSN which as a voluntary week they would have been prevented from using before retro. ROFR will certainly be put into one of the trusts.
> 
> I wonder going forward if Vistana will continue to sell high end weeks such as Maui oceanfront as weeks or will all those deeds go into the a trust?


Since this acquisition is being finalized then maybe Vistana will only sell DC points in the near future and no weeks will be sold just like the Marriott model.


----------



## Red elephant

Red elephant said:


> Since this acquisition is being finalized then maybe Vistana will only sell DC points in the near future and no weeks will be sold just like the Marriott model.


I also believe that in order to retro a week you would likely have to buy DC points as that is all that will be sold going forward.


----------



## dioxide45

Red elephant said:


> Since this acquisition is being finalized then maybe Vistana will only sell DC points in the near future and no weeks will be sold just like the Marriott model.


That is what I would expect, but ever since Vistana rolled out their Flex products they have been steadfast in continuing to sell certain high end expensive weeks. I would expect that to change, but who knows.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I wonder going forward if Vistana will continue to sell high end weeks such as Maui oceanfront as weeks or will all those deeds go into the a trust?



Can they stick it in the DC trust sell them with DC points value instead of a SO value? It would lose the ability to trade in the VSN and just be like any other enrolled Marriott week.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Can they stick it in the DC trust sell them with DC points value instead of a SO value? It would lose the ability to trade in the VSN and just be like any other enrolled Marriott week.


Yes, they could certainly do that and if they only sell DC going forward then that is what they would have to do. I have been watching for conveyances on the DC Trust to see if they started adding any yet. They haven't. This is something I will monitor after full rollout.


----------



## vacationtime1

dioxide45 said:


> I wonder going forward if Vistana will continue to sell high end weeks such as Maui oceanfront as weeks or will all those deeds go into the a trust?


I predict that at least some Westin Maui OF deeds will go into the trust. 

Marriott obviously intends to sell the DC trust as a superior product, the product of their wonderful merger.  The trust therfore needs to have availability in the best units in the acquired properties.  The trust doesn't need to own many OF units to be able to say this, but it does need to own some.

The downside for MVC is of course that the OF units can be sold for outrageous prices and the trust can be supported by properties that sell for average prices.


----------



## wjarcher

vacationtime1 said:


> I predict that at least some Westin Maui OF deeds will go into the trust.
> 
> Marriott obviously intends to sell the DC trust as a superior product, the product of their wonderful merger.  The trust therfore needs to have availability in the best units in the acquired properties.  The trust doesn't need to own many OF units to be able to say this, but it does need to own some.
> 
> The downside for MVC is of course that the OF units can be sold for outrageous prices and the trust can be supported by properties that sell for average prices.



If they can assign high DC points for these OF weeks, it might be equally profitable for them to sell DC points at $14/pt.


----------



## dioxide45

wjarcher said:


> If they can assign high DC points for these OF weeks, it might be equally profitable for them to sell DC points at $14/pt.


If they allocate them my estimated 8,000 Club Points, then that works out to $112,000 to sell them as points at $14pp. What does Vistana sell an OF Maui week for these days?


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> If they allocate them my estimated 8,000 Club Points, then that works out to $112,000 to sell them as points at $14pp. What does Vistana sell an OF Maui week for these days?


Marriott would have the nerve to sell this to people. 112K for a week in an OF unit is hilarious


----------



## vacationtime1

CPNY said:


> Marriott would have the nerve to sell this to people. 112K for a week in an OF unit is hilarious


Isn't that *exactly* what they are doing when they sell points for $14 and require 8650 of them to reserve a summer OF week?


----------



## CPNY

vacationtime1 said:


> Isn't that *exactly* what they are doing when they sell points for $14 and require 8650 of them to reserve a summer OF week?


And it’s ridiculous when you look at it. 112K plus interest (if financed) + Annual fees. How many time must someone go to be ahead or break even? 30? 40?


----------



## rcv82

dioxide45 said:


> If they allocate them my estimated 8,000 Club Points, then that works out to $112,000 to sell them as points at $14pp. What does Vistana sell an OF Maui week for these days?



At an owner update last year, Vistana quoted the price of a WKORV oceanfront deluxe (2br) unit at $140k, with a COVID discount to $99.9k. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bizaro86

CPNY said:


> And it’s ridiculous when you look at it. 112K plus interest (if financed) + Annual fees. How many time must someone go to be ahead or break even? 30? 40?



If financed at TS interest rates at that price the answer is never.


----------



## robertk2012

Some of this like the no retro looks like typical salesman bs.


----------



## KACTravels

My rep says that 2BDLO WKORN OF will be 8,325 DC points.


----------



## MICROZE

Vistana-Owners fall into one/more of the following [possibly more]:

*Developer [DIRECT]*
*Flex-Points [Westin, Sheraton, Aventuras]*
Resale [Mandatory + Enrolled]
Resale [Voluntary + Enrolled]
Resale [Mandatory]
Resale [Voluntary]
*Assumptions*

Assume 1-Developer & 2-Flex are eligible to participate in the DC-Program.
Assume that Resale-Enrolled [3-Mandatory or 4-Voluntary] can also participate in the DC-Program.
Will Resale-*Non*-Enrolled [5-Mandatory or 6-Voluntary] units be eligible to participate in the DC-Program for an additional cost?

*Mandatory: WKV, HRA, KAA, KAN, WSJ [Virgin-Grand/Hillside], SVV [Bella/Key-West]
#Enrolled = Resale - > Retroed


----------



## MICROZE

At a recent presentation, we were told that every Vistana-Owner will have to pay an Enrollment Fee to participate in the Marriott-Program.
The justification provided was that _"Marriott did *NOT* merge with Vistana"_, _"Marriott *PAID* to acquire ILG for $4.7B"_ and will attempt to recover some of this cost to permit Vistana owners to benefit. 

Your source mentions that there will be *"No Cost to enroll in DC Points"*.
Does this mean that all eligible [Developer + Enrolled] Vistana owners get automatically enrolled for "No Fees"?


----------



## taa120

We have heard mixed messages over the past year about WSJ (specifically Sunset Bay platinum) participating in DC conversion at a good exchange level (as good or better than Nanea, WFX etc) previously and had more recently heard that it would not be participating at all (all via owners updates, so we are skeptical). Any confirmation of WSJ in or out and exchange value possibilities?


----------



## robertk2012

I like my 20k purchase


----------



## magicjourney

DeniseM said:


> Interesting info. My only thought right now is why does WFlex convert at a lower rate than SFlex and Aventuras?
> *100,000 SFX gets you 2920, WFX, 3469, Aventuras 3333 sorry, WFX and SFX was backwards, good catch by a poster*



Did a quick calculation. Here are the MFs for each program after conversion:
Westin Flex: 60.62 cent per point (2022 dues $0.02103/pt)
Sheraton Flex: 63.12 cent per point (2022 dues $0.01843/pt)
Marriott DC: 62.80 cent per point

I bet they spent lots of time to come up with a 'fair' formula. Kudos to them


----------



## SueDonJ

bizaro86 said:


> Thanks for cross posting for discussion. There are a number of tells that this source is someone in the sales organization, likely a salesperson/manager. ...



I have no idea who Denise's contact is - and I'm not asking - but I'd be very surprised to find it's a low-level salesperson or manager. Marriott doesn't easily give up information for public consumption and anyone in the org who decides to do it for themselves is pretty much gone immediately. IMO the info that Denise is sharing is too advanced to be coming from Sales unless it's at the executive level and in conjunction with the product development higher-ups.

Vistana people are lucky to have this contact and to have Denise working with him/her! Marriott people didn't have that until our moderator, DaveM, was able to develop it after the DC rollout - we were hit with this huge shift from Weeks to Points overnight, BAM!, after YEARS of sales speculation and threats, a great deal of which never came to fruition. Enjoy your "soft rollout" period, use it to your advantage to learn as much as you can, and thank Denise every day that she cultivated this contact whoever it is.

And whatever else you do, keep an open mind and listen to your fellow Vistana TUGgers who join whatever this new thing is and then generously share their experience with it. The overall tenor on the TUG Marriott forum at the DC rollout was negative. I mean, very negative! Over the years that's changed and we who are enthusiastic members of the Destination Club have many different reasons why. It has its negatives, of course, but for many of us it's not at all the money-sucking too-confusing worthless scheme that was predicted by many at the outset to fail spectacularly.

Good luck!


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> I have no idea who Denise's contact is - and I'm not asking - but I'd be very surprised to find it's a low-level salesperson or manager. Marriott doesn't easily give up information for public consumption and anyone in the org who decides to do it for themselves is pretty much gone immediately. IMO the info that Denise is sharing is too advanced to be coming from Sales unless it's at the executive level and in conjunction with the product development higher-ups.


Reading between the lines through those questions and answers, it seems that training material has been provided to sales. The title of her post indicates that sales was now able to share information with owners. That reference alone makes me think it is very likely that the information came out of training material provided to sales. I say this because one of the responses was also _"I have one more video to watch, will know soon."_ If this was coming from someone with more inherent knowledge of the offering, they wouldn't be watching videos for the information.

While Denise isn't willing to share her contact, I have no doubt it is someone in sales. It may be a higher level sales manager in a specific office or perhaps someone higher than that or it could just be a regular sales rep. Though I could be wrong.

_ETA: Even if it is from sales, it in no way means I am discounting the information being provided. It all seems to be legitimate answers based on material provided to the person replying._


----------



## CalGalTraveler

What is the MF cost per point in DP? (I tried looking at the MVC Forum stickies and could not find it.)

If they don't allow resale to automatically enroll and require a significant cost to buy additional DPs. all of that inventory will remain in Vistana. The question is how many owners at our resort are developer vs. resale/unqualified?

We fall under #4 Resale mandatory, not requaled WKORVN OF. If true, this barrier will be good for Vistana inventory unless MVS strips off best summer and whale season weeks from the Vistana inventory into DC (there are 50 weeks in WKORV high float season).

Given the high cost of MF at WKORVN we are more likely to rent for a profit than trade. We bought our unit to use and have not traded or rented it yet, so maybe MVC is not our trading platform - we trade points all the time on HGVC and may make that our trading platform and use Vistana for stays. It will suck however if 13 week enrolled owners at other resorts get higher priority over inventory than WKORVN owners.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> What is the MF cost per point in DP? (I tried looking at the MVC Forum stickies and could not find it.)


It's there. This link will take you to the exact post.








						Marriott 2022 Maintenance Fees
					

Moderator Notes:  A reminder that this thread is intended only as a compilation of 2022 MF's. Related discussion can be found here: 2022 MF's Discussion Thread  Noted in the first post in this thread, "Operating Budgets for each of the resorts may be posted to owners.marriottvacationclub.com...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## tschwa2

CPNY said:


> Marriott would have the nerve to sell this to people. 112K for a week in an OF unit is hilarious


They don't really try to sell you that out right.  They talk about banking and borrowing and discounted availability and bonus points for the first 2 years.  Once they have you in the door at 2000-4000, then they will try to upsell you with the promise of chairman level discounts, etc.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@dioxide45 Thank you! So if DP $0.62796 / point then 3000 points is $1883/year. That's a significant annuity stream for points that won't get a 2 bdrm for week in Hawaii.

(not directed at @dioxide45) I thought I heard that DP points going rental rate is 0.60/point. Did I get that right? If so renting DP points earns less than MF?


----------



## tschwa2

> Do 3* and above get _"Platinum for LIFE" or Platinum as long as you maintain TS-Status"_ like current Marriott TS-Owners who are also eligible for "Titanium"?
> *yes ownership must be current*


but it should be easy to reach true platinum for life using this for 10-15 years.  Once you have 10 years as platinum or above and 600 nights with Bonvoy you reach true platinum for life that is not bound by the timeshare ownership.


----------



## vacationtime1

CalGalTraveler said:


> If they don't allow resale to automatically enroll and require a significant cost to buy additional DPs. all of that inventory will remain in Vistana. The question is how many owners at our resort are developer vs. resale/unqualified?
> 
> We fall under #4 Resale mandatory, not requaled WKORVN OF. If true, this barrier will be good for Vistana inventory unless MVS strips off best summer and whale season weeks from the Vistana inventory into DC (there are 50 weeks in WKORV high float season).


I was thinking similarly.

The unknown data point is what fraction of current WKORV/WKORVN owners bought from the developer?  WKORV is ~18 years old; WKORVN is ~14; I suspect that the majority of those units no longer belong to their original purchasers.  Although some units may have been traded in and resold, I doubt it is many; there aren't many trade-ups from Maui.  Westin Flex does not own any OF units.  And I don't think those who bought OF for $100K will be electing DC points any more frequently than the owners of Marriott Lahaina/Napili Towers OF units.  

So how will Marriott get WKORV/N OF inventory for the DC Club?  And more importantly, will there still be inventory so I can use my Kierland StarOptions to reserve WKORV?


----------



## Pathways

magicjourney said:


> Did a quick calculation. Here are the MFs for each program after conversion:
> Westin Flex: 60.62 cent per point (2022 dues $0.02103/pt)
> Sheraton Flex: 63.12 cent per point (2022 dues $0.01843/pt)
> Marriott DC: 62.80 cent per point
> 
> I bet they spent lots of time to come up with a 'fair' formula. Kudos to them



Since you already did the calculations, how about edit your post and add Adventuras?


----------



## tschwa2

> *FYI HARBORSIDE AND RIVERFRONT .. WON'T BE INCLUDED PROBABLY UNTIL 2024 .everything else is in *


Why would Westin Riverfront be different than other resorts?  If anything I would expect Harborside and WSJ to be different because of different timeshare laws.


----------



## VacationForever

CalGalTraveler said:


> @dioxide45 Thank you! So if DP $0.62796 / point then 3000 points is $1883/year. That's a significant annuity stream for points that won't get a 2 bdrm for week in Hawaii.
> 
> (not directed at @dioxide45) I thought I heard that DP points going rental rate is 0.60/point. Did I get that right? If so renting DP points earns less than MF?


Points are usually expiring for them to go for 60 cents per point.  Realistically, points rent for slightly above MF.  Don't forget that there are many enrolled weeks with lower MF compared to DC points and owners can rent out those points for a small profit.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

One other thought: If an owner at WKORV enrolls their week into DP, does that mean that owner will compete with other resort owners (e.g. Marriott, WKV) if they want to reserve at WKORV?

If this is true, then a lot of premier inventory will stay in Vistana because WKORV and OF owners will want priority access to inventory rather than deposit their week in DP and compete with MVC. MVC cannot strip out the weeks if not deposited into DP. And because I think it must be deposited in advance for the year, most owners will likely stick with status quo and if plans change last minute they can cancel and trade in SOs.

If the above is true, then even enrolled retail owners may not necessarily deposit into DPs. As @dioxide45 indicated, this will look a lot like MOC Lahaina and Napili unenrolled. The difference with Vistana Mandatory vs. MVC is that such owners still have an option to trade SOs and don't need to decide in advance of the year whereas MVC owners don't have that option.

Unless I knew I wanted to trade into specific MVC property, why would I deposit an expensive unit? Even then, why would an owner want to risk competing with all MVC owners to get the unit I want when I can rent our VOI for $5000 a week and then use the money to rent the exact MVC unit I want. (more hassle but...)


----------



## VacationForever

CalGalTraveler said:


> One other thought: If an owner at WKORV enrolls their week into DP, does that mean that owner will compete with other resort owners (e.g. Marriott, WKV) if they want to reserve at WKORV?
> 
> If this is true, then a lot of premier inventory will stay in Vistana because WKORV and OF owners will want priority access to inventory rather than deposit their week in DP and compete with MVC. MVC cannot strip out the weeks if not deposited into DP. And because I think it must be deposited in advance for the year, most owners will likely stick with status quo and if plans change last minute they can cancel and trade in SOs.


When a week is enrolled, you still have not given up use of your week, your week remains in the Vistana week inventory system.  Only when you elect to convert the week to points, which you make the decision once a year, before you give up your week and the week gets deposited in the MVC exchange pool.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

VacationForever said:


> When a week is enrolled, you still have not given up use of your week, your week remains in the Vistana week inventory system.  Only when you elect to convert the week to points, which you make the decision once a year, before you give up your week and the week gets deposited in the MVC exchange pool.



Thanks for the clarification. (BTW...I hope you are recuperating well.) If I read the DP benefits at a glance correctly, that week must be deposited prior to the use year, so that inventory will be stripped out of the Vistana system when that election is made. Meaning DP inventory may not receive the Vistana inventory until closer to the use date. Perhaps 13 weeks vs. 12 weeks doesn't matter in that case because the DP won't have the enrolled owners inventory when the Vistana owner makes their 12 month reservation because most enrolled haven't elected DPs yet.

I cannot remember the exact SO banking deadline (June 30th during use year?), With Vistana, you can cancel your Week reservation 60 days prior to arrival and it still is available in Staroptions or you can reserve a week later in the use year; this option will always be more flexible and preferable for owners unless MVC changes the rules.


----------



## VacationForever

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks for the clarification. If I read the DP benefits at a glance correctly, that week must be deposited prior to the use year, so that inventory will be stripped out of the Vistana system when that election is made. I cannot remember the exact deadline (June 30th to bank during use year), With Vistana, you can cancel your Week reservation 60 days prior to arrival and it still is available in Staroptions or you can reserve a week later in the year if available this option will always be more flexible and preferable for owners unless MVC changes the rules.


Correct.  Election deadline varies by ownership/status level, before use year.  Owner/Select/Executive level - elect by Sept 30.  Presidential and Chairman's Club - elect by Oct 31.

PS - Thanks.  Still in alot of pain but otherwise, very thankful.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> @dioxide45 Thank you! So if DP $0.62796 / point then 3000 points is $1883/year. That's a significant annuity stream for points that won't get a 2 bdrm for week in Hawaii.
> 
> (not directed at @dioxide45) I thought I heard that DP points going rental rate is 0.60/point. Did I get that right? If so renting DP points earns less than MF?


Points usually rent for more than $0.60pp. Realize also that many people who rent their points aren't paying a MF of $0.62pp on them. They own legacy weeks where the MF to point ratio is much lower than Trust points.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> Unless I knew I wanted to trade into specific MVC property, why would I deposit an expensive unit? Even then, why would an owner want to risk competing with all MVC owners to get the unit I want when I can rent our VOI for $5000 a week and then use the money to rent the exact MVC unit I want. (more hassle but...)


This makes sense to the astute timeshare owner on TUG, but many don't know or care to try renting. Many don't reserve 12 months out, thus why there is still inventory at 8 months. If a Vistana owner wants to go to a specific Marriott resort, they may just opt for Club points to keep things simple.


----------



## divenski

CalGalTraveler said:


> One other thought: If an owner at WKORV enrolls their week into DP, does that mean that owner will compete with other resort owners (e.g. Marriott, WKV) if they want to reserve at WKORV?
> 
> Unless I knew I wanted to trade into specific MVC property, why would I deposit an expensive unit? Even then, why would an owner want to risk competing with all MVC owners to get the unit I want when I can rent our VOI for $5000 a week and then use the money to rent the exact MVC unit I want. (more hassle but...)



In existing MVC, there is generally no benefit to converting to points and then trying to get back into a home resort. There is more competition, possibly lower room choice priority, and worst of all, the skim factor means that you can't even get back in during some high seasons unless you give up about a day's worth of points

For me, the most useful option has been to essentially convert a EY week to two weeks EOY by converting to points and then delaying to the next year and combining a points week with a regular week.


----------



## Mowogo

divenski said:


> In existing MVC, there is generally no benefit to converting to points and then trying to get back into a home resort. There is more competition, possibly lower room choice priority, and worst of all, the skim factor means that you can't even get back in during some high seasons unless you give up about a day's worth of points
> 
> For me, the most useful option has been to essentially convert a EY week to two weeks EOY by converting to points and then delaying to the next year and combining a points week with a regular week.


I'd say it depends on your Vistana ownership if it makes sense to convert and the answer will also depend on when you are looking to book and if you have vistana elite status right now.  Sheraton Flex is something that begs for elites to convert in a lot of cases if you have an elite ownership and I can even justify the skim in an arrangement such as my family ownership.  13 month reservation for 1+ night in DC including luxury even for 3 star owners can definitely be leveraged as a product upgrade.


----------



## dioxide45

dioxide45 said:


> Assume that Resale-Enrolled [3-Mandatory or 4-Voluntary] can also participate in the DC-Program.
> *Sounds like if you a pay a VSN fee, you can convert, if you don't pay a fee you can't*
> 
> Will Resale-*Non*-Enrolled [5-Mandatory or 6-Voluntary] units be eligible to participate in the DC-Program for an additional cost?
> *resale owner will not be able to convert. I am pretty sure mandatory owners will not be able to convert also.*


These two items seem to contradict each other. I suspect it is just confusion over terminology and understanding the true differences. I suspect the latter of the two will be true.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

vacationtime1 said:


> The unknown data point is what fraction of current WKORV/WKORVN owners bought from the developer?  WKORV is ~18 years old; WKORVN is ~14; I suspect that the majority of those units no longer belong to their original purchasers.



I wouldn't be surprised if over 80% of the WKORV/N developer purchases are still owned by the original buyers considering the 'losses' involved in selling. The resale market has picked up recently but I've seen many years where barely 10 or 20 units were sold on Redweek (admittedly it's not the only sales method but is probably indicative of the market).


----------



## dioxide45

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if over 80% of the WKORV/N developer purchases are still owned by the original buyers considering the 'losses' involved in selling. The resale market has picked up recently but I've seen many years where barely 10 or 20 units were sold on Redweek (admittedly it's not the only sales method but is probably indicative of the market).


I would tend to agree. 18-20 years isn't that long in the timeshare timeline. Some older owners may have passed it on to adult children or still own it. There are also the people that come in and "upgrade", so Vistana takes that back and turns around to resell it again as brand new.


----------



## CPNY

I know @DeniseM closed the question thread for a break but I think we need more clarification on this as there seems to be more info needed by the informant. This sounds like if you pay a VSN fee you’re in the club and can convert. But mandatory resale owners who are not retro cannot convert? I always assumed those who could convert to bonvoy (developer/resale mandatory) would be able to swim in the combined pool.

_“Assume that Resale-Enrolled [3-Mandatory or 4-Voluntary] can also participate in the DC-Program.
*Sounds like if you a pay a VSN fee, you can convert, if you don't pay a fee you can't*

Will Resale-Non-Enrolled [5-Mandatory or 6-Voluntary] units be eligible to participate in the DC-Program for an additional cost?
*resale owner will not be able to convert. I am pretty sure mandatory owners will not be able to convert also.”

@dioxide45 *I see now that you asked the same thing. I agree, I think the latter will be true but it will be interesting to see. If the VSN dues go up for all then we may all be able to convert or get the free II exchanges. Also, the informant said orlando properties won’t fare well and aren’t worth keeping so upgrade now….. I disagree. I’ll keep my orlando units for the lower maint fees and star options usage. Plus being they are in Florida there is an easier exit strategy for when Marriott decides to really muck things up. _


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## DeniseM

I will add your question to the thread - thank you.


----------



## divenski

Seems like there has been a big uptick in rental activity too. Not sure if this is just a post-COVID catch up or a longer term trend. One downside is that more prime weeks are reserved as rentals and by people who know the drill. That might be a bigger issue than competition from MVC owners who will have to pay a lot of points to get into WKORV/N.


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## CalGalTraveler

I agree that there are still many retail owners. Anecdotally we have several friends who bought retail, and many of the people we meet at the resort bought retail. One of our friends bought 2 VOIs so they could pass a unit down to each of their 2 kids when they die - and they are quite young!

Regardless of resell/retail. If my prior post is correct, prime WKORV inventory won't be impacted when owners need to reserve at 12 months if they reserve prior to the DP deposit deadline.  Unless MVC plays games with the inventory, all owners will still have access to prime weeks because enrolled owners won't enroll their weeks until later in the reservation year.  MVC cannot strip out inventory weeks to DP that have already been reserved by legacy owners.


----------



## pacman777

CPNY said:


> I know @DeniseM closed the question thread for a break but I think we need more clarification on this as there seems to be more info needed by the informant. This sounds like if you pay a VSN fee you’re in the club and can convert. But mandatory resale owners who are not retro cannot convert? I always assumed those who could convert to bonvoy (developer/resale mandatory) would be able to swim in the combined pool.
> 
> _“Assume that Resale-Enrolled [3-Mandatory or 4-Voluntary] can also participate in the DC-Program.
> *Sounds like if you a pay a VSN fee, you can convert, if you don't pay a fee you can't*
> 
> Will Resale-Non-Enrolled [5-Mandatory or 6-Voluntary] units be eligible to participate in the DC-Program for an additional cost?
> *resale owner will not be able to convert. I am pretty sure mandatory owners will not be able to convert also.”*_



Not ruling it out but that would be too good to be true for all the WKV resale owners and would increase the resale value of WKV even more than it is currently given that it is the lowest MF resort that is mandatory


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> I agree that there are still many retail owners. Anecdotally we have several friends who bought retail, and many of the people we meet at the resort bought retail. One of our friends bought 2 VOIs so they could pass a unit down to each of their 2 kids when they die - and they are quite young still!
> 
> Regardless of resell/retail. If my prior post is correct, prime WKORV inventory won't be impacted when owners need to reserve at 12 months if they reserve prior to the DP deposit deadline.  Unless MVC plays games with the inventory, all owners will still have access to prime weeks because enrolled owners won't enroll their weeks until later in the reservation year.  MVC cannot strip out inventory weeks to DP that have already been reserved by legacy owners.


It is very likely that an owner will need to elece to Club Points by Sept 30 or Oct 31 of the year prior to the use year. An owner will need to make a specific decision to elect. I think one can elect up to 25 months prior to the start of their use year. So much will depend on how many people elect points for prime inventory. WIth Vistana it is different than MVC. MVC didn't already have a points program where Vistana does. Many people despised II and liked the ability to reserve directly through Marriott. With Vistana, the most owners already have that ability.


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## CalGalTraveler

Agreed. I believe most will wait until the deadline to deposit. So that should give legacy owners an ability to reserve whale and summer weeks prior to the DP deadline.  The 13 month priority worried me but now it does not as I can see that legacy weeks owners still have access to inventory (which they should).

If MVC starts aggressive ROFR that will only increase the value. Our resale has actually gone up several thousand in value. With ROFR ???? For once we may own a TS that may be worth more than we paid!


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> Agreed. I believe most will wait until the deadline to deposit. So that should give legacy owners an ability to reserve whale and summer weeks prior to the DP deadline.  The 13 month priority worried me but now it does not as I can see that legacy weeks owners still have access to inventory (which they should).


Also consider that for every owner that elects Club Points, it is also an owner that is no longer competing for a home resort reservation. So even if they elect early, the supply/demand stays the same.


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## CalGalTraveler

dioxide45 said:


> Also consider that for every owner that elects Club Points, it is also an owner that is no longer competing for a home resort reservation. So even if they elect early, the supply/demand stays the same.



Wouldn't MVP strip out a week out of inventory upon election? Or do they have a history of stripping out bulk? If so when do they typically do that for MVC legacy owners?


----------



## vikingsholm

I have a more basic question, just looking for a general answer, not specific program details yet. 

I have not followed all the previous threads about the merger, so this may have been covered there before, but there are so many pages to wade through that if someone can answer simply, that would help.

We only own Marriott, and are enrolled in the DC program as well as owning Marriott re-sell weeks separately.

I do not understand much of what I've read about the Westin program and conversion on the Westin/Vistana side, since we do not own those.

My question is:

Assuming those Westin owners who decide to join in the Marriott DC program begin to trade with points for Marriott properties with this change, are they essentially making their Westin units available on a points basis to both Marriott and Westin previous owners?

Then, if they deposit Westins into the points exchange program, do those become available to Marriott owners automatically, or only if Marriott owners enroll separately in some enhanced DC program that includes Westin?


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> Wouldn't MVP strip out a week upon election? Or do they have a history of stripping out bulk? If so when do they typically do that for MVC legacy owners?


We don't really know how MVC handle inventory when an owner elects Club Points. For resorts with long seasons or a season that takes up the entire year like Hawaii, we don't know how MVC handles the inventory when an owner now wants to use DC points. Technically that week being in the MVC Exchange Company has the ability to reserve any week of the year at a resort. So it is possible that DC point reservations could snap up all the prime weeks of a season. There has been mention in the past that MVC allocates a proportionate amount of inventory from each week of a season to DC point and week reservations based on the percentage of weeks elected and owned by the trust vs the number of weeks still under weeks inventory. But in the end, MVC isn't forthcoming with how they manage the inventory between the systems.


----------



## dioxide45

vikingsholm said:


> My question is:
> 
> Assuming those Westin owners who decide to join in the Marriott DC program begin to trade with points for Marriott properties with this change, are they essentially making their Westin units available on a points basis to both Marriott and Westin previous owners?
> 
> Then, if they deposit Westins into the points exchange program, do those become available to Marriott owners automatically, or only if Marriott owners enroll separately in some enhanced DC program that includes Westin?


It would seem that you are understanding correctly. When a Vistana owner elects Club Points, their underlying ownership becomes available for all DC point users to reserve. So as a Marriott only owner, you would potentially able to book a Westin or Sheraton property where the owner elected Club Points.


----------



## Venter

CalGalTraveler said:


> One other thought: If an owner at WKORV enrolls their week into DP, does that mean that owner will compete with other resort owners (e.g. Marriott, WKV) if they want to reserve at WKORV?
> 
> If this is true, then a lot of premier inventory will stay in Vistana because WKORV and OF owners will want priority access to inventory rather than deposit their week in DP and compete with MVC. MVC cannot strip out the weeks if not deposited into DP. And because I think it must be deposited in advance for the year, most owners will likely stick with status quo and if plans change last minute they can cancel and trade in SOs.
> 
> If the above is true, then even enrolled retail owners may not necessarily deposit into DPs. As @dioxide45 indicated, this will look a lot like MOC Lahaina and Napili unenrolled. The difference with Vistana Mandatory vs. MVC is that such owners still have an option to trade SOs and don't need to decide in advance of the year whereas MVC owners don't have that option.
> 
> Unless I knew I wanted to trade into specific MVC property, why would I deposit an expensive unit? Even then, why would an owner want to risk competing with all MVC owners to get the unit I want when I can rent our VOI for $5000 a week and then use the money to rent the exact MVC unit I want. (more hassle but...)



The mistake most Marriott owners made at the start of the new system was to think of the DC as the primary way to play in the timeshare arena. This lead to a lot of negativity.  As time went on we learned to use it as a secondary enhancement. 
I suggest this is the same way Vistana owners need to look at it.  If you elect your week you will be competing against all other owners. Why would you want to do that though?  You will get less points and wont be able to get a whole week back and you will compete for the reservation with more people. If you bought to use just do that. Your deed cannot be changed and that gives you the priority and a whole week.  This is why you should make plans well ahead of time.
On the other hand if you want to exchange then deposit your unit to stand a better chance of getting what you want (if you have the points) ad it sounds ad if DC exchange will have priority to book over Vistana. 12-13 months instead of months out.  If you want flexibility then deposit for points because you will be able to book smaller units or 1-7 days.
So if you know what you want to do for your vacation well in advance or not (flexibility) then you can make it work most of the time.
As for units beng available 8n different pools.  There was lots of talk ahead of time and after the change occurred, about this subject in the Marriott forum. Reality was though that although there are different buckets Marriott made it work pretty seemlessly without much starving of any of the buckets by moving points around as needed.  Remember it is not in their favour to have a product that does not work ad word will spread and nobody will want to buy or rescind ad soon ad they here the hot tub rumours.
My last word is to just see how things work out instead of working oneself up for things that may not transpire and be working out better than expected.


----------



## tschwa2

pacman777 said:


> Not ruling it out but that would be too good to be true for all the WKV resale owners and would increase the resale value of WKV even more than it is currently given that it is the lowest MF resort that is mandatory


No it won't increase the value of mandatory resales because it will likely be similar to Marriott's program where you have to own by the official full launch date to be eligible to enroll without the fairly substantial DC points purchase to enroll.


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## dioxide45

tschwa2 said:


> No it won't increase the value of mandatory resales because it will likely be similar to Marriott's program where you have to own by the official full launch date to be eligible to enroll without the fairly substantial DC points purchase to enroll.


Right now, based on replies by Denise's contact, any kind of resale (unqualified ownership( will be froze out. This would be different from Marriott's program where they allowed resale weeks that were acquired prior to the changes to enroll.


----------



## Sicnarf

dioxide45 said:


> It would seem that you are understanding correctly. When a Vistana owner elects Club Points, their underlying ownership becomes available for all DC point users to reserve. So as a Marriott only owner, you would potentially able to book a Westin or Sheraton property where the owner elected Club Points.


And since only DC points will be sold supposedly once the integration is completed, all unsold VSE inventory and ROFR'd units will be added to the DC Trust. So, there should more Westin and Sheraton available for DC exchange.


----------



## Sicnarf

dioxide45 said:


> Right now, based on replies by Denise's contact, any kind of resale (unqualified ownership( will be froze out. This would be different from Marriott's program where they allowed resale weeks that were acquired prior to the changes to enroll.


Resale weeks can be enrolled, not traded in, by buying some  amounts of DC points.


----------



## Sicnarf

CPNY said:


> I know @DeniseM closed the question thread for a break but I think we need more clarification on this as there seems to be more info needed by the informant. This sounds like if you pay a VSN fee you’re in the club and can convert. But mandatory resale owners who are not retro cannot convert? I always assumed those who could convert to bonvoy (developer/resale mandatory) would be able to swim in the combined pool.
> 
> _“Assume that Resale-Enrolled [3-Mandatory or 4-Voluntary] can also participate in the DC-Program.
> *Sounds like if you a pay a VSN fee, you can convert, if you don't pay a fee you can't*
> 
> Will Resale-Non-Enrolled [5-Mandatory or 6-Voluntary] units be eligible to participate in the DC-Program for an additional cost?
> *resale owner will not be able to convert. I am pretty sure mandatory owners will not be able to convert also.”
> 
> @dioxide45 *I see now that you asked the same thing. I agree, I think the latter will be true but it will be interesting to see. If the VSN dues go up for all then we may all be able to convert or get the free II exchanges. Also, the informant said orlando properties won’t fare well and aren’t worth keeping so upgrade now….. I disagree. I’ll keep my orlando units for the lower maint fees and star options usage. Plus being they are in Florida there is an easier exit strategy for when Marriott decides to really muck things up. _


VSN fee is for Staroption exchange and available to all mandatory units including resale. But unauthorized resales can not be enrolled to the DC program without buying DC or flex points at this time.


----------



## tschwa2

dioxide45 said:


> Right now, based on replies by Denise's contact, any kind of resale (unqualified ownership( will be froze out. This would be different from Marriott's program where they allowed resale weeks that were acquired prior to the changes to enroll.


I agree that resales probably won't be eligible but even if they were allowed it wouldn't increase the resale value because of the date restriction which would certainly be in place even if they allowed resales to join for a sub $5000 fee.


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## CalGalTraveler

tschwa2 said:


> I agree that resales probably won't be eligible but even if they were allowed it wouldn't increase the resale value because of the date restriction which would certainly be in place even if they allowed resales to join for a sub $5000 fee.


Are you referring to 13 month reservations?

If so not necessarily true. Read my prior posts on DP deposit dates. Enrolled elections won't deposit inventory until after most 12 month legacy owner reservations have been made (unless MVC messes with inventory).


----------



## tschwa2

Sicnarf said:


> VSN fee is for Staroption exchange and available to all mandatory units including resale. But unauthorized resales can not be enrolled to the DC program without buying DC or flex points at this time.


Am I missing something, can they any VSN owners be enrolled at this time?  Are people who buy today immediately eligible to enroll their flex points for next year's usage?


----------



## tschwa2

CalGalTraveler said:


> Are you referring to 13 month reservations?
> 
> If so not necessarily true. Read my prior posts on DP deposit dates. Enrolled elections won't deposit inventory until after the 12 month reservations have been made (unless MVC messes around with inventory).


No my original response was to PACMAN #490.  Who thought *IF* mandatory resales were allowed in it would increase resale value for WKV.


----------



## Sicnarf

vikingsholm said:


> I have a more basic question, just looking for a general answer, not specific program details yet.
> 
> I have not followed all the previous threads about the merger, so this may have been covered there before, but there are so many pages to wade through that if someone can answer simply, that would help.
> 
> We only own Marriott, and are enrolled in the DC program as well as owning Marriott re-sell weeks separately.
> 
> I do not understand much of what I've read about the Westin program and conversion on the Westin/Vistana side, since we do not own those.
> 
> My question is:
> 
> Assuming those Westin owners who decide to join in the Marriott DC program begin to trade with points for Marriott properties with this change, are they essentially making their Westin units available on a points basis to both Marriott and Westin previous owners?
> 
> Then, if they deposit Westins into the points exchange program, do those become available to Marriott owners automatically, or only if Marriott owners enroll separately in some enhanced DC program that includes Westin?


Westin and Sheraton units exchanged to the DC program will be available to all DC owners.


----------



## dougp26364

SueDonJ said:


> I have no idea who Denise's contact is - and I'm not asking - but I'd be very surprised to find it's a low-level salesperson or manager. Marriott doesn't easily give up information for public consumption and anyone in the org who decides to do it for themselves is pretty much gone immediately. IMO the info that Denise is sharing is too advanced to be coming from Sales unless it's at the executive level and in conjunction with the product development higher-ups.
> 
> Vistana people are lucky to have this contact and to have Denise working with him/her! Marriott people didn't have that until our moderator, DaveM, was able to develop it after the DC rollout - we were hit with this huge shift from Weeks to Points overnight, BAM!, after YEARS of sales speculation and threats, a great deal of which never came to fruition. Enjoy your "soft rollout" period, use it to your advantage to learn as much as you can, and thank Denise every day that she cultivated this contact whoever it is.
> 
> And whatever else you do, keep an open mind and listen to your fellow Vistana TUGgers who join whatever this new thing is and then generously share their experience with it. The overall tenor on the TUG Marriott forum at the DC rollout was negative. I mean, very negative! Over the years that's changed and we who are enthusiastic members of the Destination Club have many different reasons why. It has its negatives, of course, but for many of us it's not at all the money-sucking too-confusing worthless scheme that was predicted by many at the outset to fail spectacularly.
> 
> Good luck!



I was pretty negative at first. It wasn’t exactly what I expected and I definitely didn’t like the skim. I was accustomed to the DRI points program and Marriott’s was different. They exchanged the ski for fees. The reality I’ve come to see is it evens out.

Over time, two decades worth of changes in various systems I’ve learned to calm down a bit, relax and see what advantages I can glean from what’s new. I no longer fear using what I have, because that’s never really happened. That’s just fear used by some sales people trying to get people to buy. 

The best thing everyone can do is wait. Wait and see what’s in writing. The insight Denise’s contact has provided makes perfect sense to me knowing what I know about the previous change from weeks to trust, it just won’t be as big of a shock for Marriott owners.


----------



## Sicnarf

tschwa2 said:


> Am I missing something, can they any VSN owners be enrolled at this time?  Are people who buy today immediately eligible to enroll their flex points for next year's usage?


Yes, all developer purchased and authorized resales weeks or flexpoints are automatically enrolled supposedly but we don't know when we can start exchanging yet.


----------



## tschwa2

Sicnarf said:


> Yes, all developer purchased and authorized resales weeks or flexpoints are automatically enrolled supposedly but we don't know when we can start exchanging yet.


got it, enrolled but still without access to dc inventory yet or any enhanced interval options. 

Oh I wonder if that means someone with a mix of retail and resale will have to pay a separate VSN fee for their non enrolled weeks.


----------



## robertk2012

[Duplicate post deleted - If you aren't interested in this merger, then don't read it, but most Tuggers appreciate having new Info about what's going on. DeniseM]


----------



## MICROZE

Sicnarf said:


> _Will Resale-Non-Enrolled [5-Mandatory or 6-Voluntary] units be eligible to participate in the DC-Program for an additional cost?
> *resale owner will not be able to convert. I am pretty sure mandatory owners will not be able to convert also.”*_
> 
> VSN fee is for Staroption exchange and available to all mandatory units including resale. But unauthorized resales can not be enrolled to the DC program without buying DC or flex points at this time.


As it stands today, VSN-Owners with *Mandatory* Resale-Units *[NON-ENROLLED]* are able to participate [have to pay Club-Dues] within the Vistana-System by booking their Home-Resort at 12-Months. Most importantly they can also book any other Vistana-Units [Harborside, Westin St John, Westin Maul] at 8-Months.

This is one reason why Mandatory-Resale units command a premium in the resale market.
This is one reason why Voluntary-Resale units sell for much less than the Mandatory units. 

If these owners [Resale + Mandatory + *NON*-Enrolled] are not permitted to participate in the new DC-System this would be a downgrade to their mandatory units and thus a devaluation in the resale market?


----------



## Red elephant

SueDonJ said:


> I have no idea who Denise's contact is - and I'm not asking - but I'd be very surprised to find it's a low-level salesperson or manager. Marriott doesn't easily give up information for public consumption and anyone in the org who decides to do it for themselves is pretty much gone immediately. IMO the info that Denise is sharing is too advanced to be coming from Sales unless it's at the executive level and in conjunction with the product development higher-ups.
> 
> Vistana people are lucky to have this contact and to have Denise working with him/her! Marriott people didn't have that until our moderator, DaveM, was able to develop it after the DC rollout - we were hit with this huge shift from Weeks to Points overnight, BAM!, after YEARS of sales speculation and threats, a great deal of which never came to fruition. Enjoy your "soft rollout" period, use it to your advantage to learn as much as you can, and thank Denise every day that she cultivated this contact whoever it is.
> 
> And whatever else you do, keep an open mind and listen to your fellow Vistana TUGgers who join whatever this new thing is and then generously share their experience with it. The overall tenor on the TUG Marriott forum at the DC rollout was negative. I mean, very negative! Over the years that's changed and we who are enthusiastic members of the Destination Club have many different reasons why. It has its negatives, of course, but for many of us it's not at all the money-sucking too-confusing worthless scheme that was predicted by many at the outset to fail spectacularly.
> 
> Good luck!


What Denise said is exactly what I was told on Friday by my contact. I could not get my sunset bay and coral vista conversions or Nanea because they were being tweaked. WSJ too low and Nanea no difference between OF and resort view. Also soft launch to allow owners to make adjustments.


----------



## emeryjre

MICROZE said:


> As it stands today, VSN-Owners with *Mandatory* Resale-Units *[NON-ENROLLED]* are able to participate [have to pay Club-Dues] within the Vistana-System by booking their Home-Resort at 12-Months. Most importantly they can also book any other Vistana-Units [Harborside, Westin St John, Westin Maul] at 8-Months.
> 
> This is one reason why Mandatory-Resale units command a premium in the resale market.
> This is one reason why Voluntary-Resale units sell for much less than the Mandatory units.
> 
> If these owners [Resale + Mandatory + *NON*-Enrolled] are not permitted to participate in the new DC-System this would be a downgrade to their mandatory units and thus a devaluation in the resale market?


You should probably put IMHO about the valuation until the final points charts come out.  Also if a mandatory unit that qualifies to participate goes on the market, it will become a resale and no longer qualify to be in the DC program.


----------



## tschwa2

There was a lot of speculation about Marriott resales before their full official rollout and they didn't want to encourage people to buy resale before the rollout by saying resale would be included.  By the time they did announce resale's ability to join it was too late to add additional weeks before the cut off date.  This could be the same thing.  Not that I would buy anything on speculation at this point, if nothing else Vistana could intentionally drag their feet as to not transfer anything in time.  By announcing that resales are not eligible unless retro'ed before gives another tool for sales to use currently and doesn't mean they can't announce something different between now and this summer.


----------



## kozykritter

tschwa2 said:


> Why would Westin Riverfront be different than other resorts?  If anything I would expect Harborside and WSJ to be different because of different timeshare laws.


Just a guess but both Harborside and Riverfront have unique circumstances in the Vistana system. Harborside is a jointly owned property (my brain says Atlantis is the other owner but don't remember for sure). Riverfront is the only property without Vistana staff on site other than sales people (I used to sell ownership there). All room assignments are actually done out of Orlando based on reservation timestamps. All employees work for East-West Hospitality group which built it, the attached Westin hotel and residences and all of the resort buildings next to it that have been recently developed. Perhaps these unique ownership arrangements and the underlying contracts require some negotiation that will take some time.


----------



## tschwa2

kozykritter said:


> Just a guess but both Harborside and Riverfront have unique circumstances in the Vistana system. Harborside is a jointly owned property (my brain says Atlantis is the other owner but don't remember for sure). Riverfront is the only property without Vistana staff on site other than sales people (I used to sell ownership there). All room assignments are actually done out of Orlando based solely on timestamps. All employees work for East-West Hospitality group which built it, the attached Westin hotel and residences and all of the resort buildings next to it that have been recently developed. Perhaps these unique ownership arrangements require some negotiation that will take some time.


Thanks I did not know that about riverfront.


----------



## vikingsholm

Sicnarf said:


> Westin and Sheraton units exchanged to the DC program will be available to all DC owners.


Thanks to you and dioxide for answering my question!


----------



## Pathways

MICROZE said:


> As it stands today, VSN-Owners with *Mandatory* Resale-Units *[NON-ENROLLED]* are able to participate [have to pay Club-Dues] within the Vistana-System by booking their Home-Resort at 12-Months. Most importantly they can also book any other Vistana-Units [Harborside, Westin St John, Westin Maul] at 8-Months.
> 
> This is one reason why Mandatory-Resale units command a premium in the resale market.
> This is one reason why Voluntary-Resale units sell for much less than the Mandatory units.
> 
> If these owners [Resale + Mandatory + *NON*-Enrolled] are not permitted to participate in the new DC-System this would be a downgrade to their mandatory units and thus a devaluation in the resale market?



Since they can't participate today, and there doesn't appear to be any change in how one uses their current ownership, I would say there is no downgrade, and therefore no devaluation.


----------



## daviator

I’ve tried to keep up with this whole thread as well as the accompanying one with the Q&A from the MVC source.

I think you have to take the MVC characterization of things with a grain of salt.  There seems to be an assumption that Vistana owners are going to be chomping at the bit to enroll in and use the DC system, and that leads to comments like “Orlando units aren’t going to be worth much” and the like.

People need to remember that, so far as I can tell, there is no change if you want to keep using your unit or trading with VSN as you’ve always done.  There may be be some inventory challenges, it’s hard to know at this point, but it looks to me like nothing will really change for those who don’t want to, or can’t, use the DC system.

My ownerships are all developer purchases, so I’ll be fully eligible to participate, but I have little (and perhaps no) interest in doing so.  If enrollment is free and doesn’t change anything about my ability to use VSN, I may enroll just to have the option, but I am not chomping at the bit to use any DC resorts and am pretty sure that doing so would reduce the value I’m getting for that year's ownership.  Choice is always good and I’m happy to have the choice to access additional resorts, even if they are lower-tier than Westin, but I may never use them.

The one question I have is to whether we will ever see any new VSN resorts, branded with Westin or Sheraton.  It seems unlikely that MVW would ever want to develop any more resorts to go in VSN, but it’s possible they might want to develop more Westin properties at some point.  (I sort of doubt they’d develop any more Sheraton timeshare properties.)  So could we end up with some weirdness of having future Westin or Sheraton properties which are in DC but not VSN?  Obviously nobody knows.  For now, I think the VSN network is unlikely to grow any further.  We were lucky to get a little network growth out of the split of Vistana from Starwood a few years back.

For me, I’d probably pay to stay in a better hotel property rather than vacation in a Marriott-branded timeshare resort; I just don’t think they are that great. So many are bad hotel conversions anyway.


----------



## MICROZE

Pathways said:


> Since they can't participate today, and there doesn't appear to be any change in how one uses their current ownership, I would say there is no downgrade, and therefore no devaluation.


If there is "No Change" in how they participate today, this means that NON-Enrolled Mandatory-Units will have full access to ALL Vistana-Inventory at 8-Months.


----------



## Pathways

daviator said:


> People need to remember that, so far as I can tell, there is no change if you want to keep using your unit or trading with VSN as you’ve always done



That's what I see also



MICROZE said:


> If there is "No Change" in how they participate today, this means that NON-Enrolled Mandatory-Units will have full access to ALL Vistana-Inventory at 8-Months.



Correct.  All this talk is how will the current owners access the MVC DC program.


----------



## jabberwocky

tschwa2 said:


> got it, enrolled but still without access to dc inventory yet or any enhanced interval options.
> 
> Oh I wonder if that means someone with a mix of retail and resale will have to pay a separate VSN fee for their non enrolled weeks.


This is what I’m wondering as well. We own:

1) Developer purchased week at a voluntary resort. 
2) resale purchased voluntary unit which has been retroed. 
3) flex points purchased retail to retro the above resale voluntary unit
4) a mandatory resale unit

1-3 should be eligible to convert to DC, but 4 may not. But then do I have to pay two VSN fees, one for the DC eligible and one for the mandatory VSN?  They are all under one II account now - so how would free exchanges work and how would they split them off?


----------



## bizaro86

SueDonJ said:


> I have no idea who Denise's contact is - and I'm not asking - but I'd be very surprised to find it's a low-level salesperson or manager. Marriott doesn't easily give up information for public consumption and anyone in the org who decides to do it for themselves is pretty much gone immediately. IMO the info that Denise is sharing is too advanced to be coming from Sales unless it's at the executive level and in conjunction with the product development higher-ups.
> 
> Vistana people are lucky to have this contact and to have Denise working with him/her! Marriott people didn't have that until our moderator, DaveM, was able to develop it after the DC rollout - we were hit with this huge shift from Weeks to Points overnight, BAM!, after YEARS of sales speculation and threats, a great deal of which never came to fruition. Enjoy your "soft rollout" period, use it to your advantage to learn as much as you can, and thank Denise every day that she cultivated this contact whoever it is.
> 
> And whatever else you do, keep an open mind and listen to your fellow Vistana TUGgers who join whatever this new thing is and then generously share their experience with it. The overall tenor on the TUG Marriott forum at the DC rollout was negative. I mean, very negative! Over the years that's changed and we who are enthusiastic members of the Destination Club have many different reasons why. It has its negatives, of course, but for many of us it's not at all the money-sucking too-confusing worthless scheme that was predicted by many at the outset to fail spectacularly.
> 
> Good luck!



I apologize (to Denise especially) if I gave the impression this information wasn't worth having, it certainly is. While Dioxide addressed my perspective extremely well directly below your post, I would just reiterate that it seems exceedingly unlikely this is coming from someone other than sales. 

The people designing the program didn't watch training videos for information, they created training videos for salespeople to watch. Other comments "owners are trusting us and buying" are softer indications of a sales focus.

I wasn't saying any of it is wrong, and it does have a ring of truth. Just that it makes sense to read (as always!) critically and consider the incentives of the source as well as other facts and evidence available to you. I'd hate to see people rush into developer retro transactions they subsequently regret. 

I'm a pretty strong believer in resale TS, and think if there is any doubt giving a TS developer $10k+ is something to be carefully considered.


----------



## Mowogo

bizaro86 said:


> I apologize (to Denise especially) if I gave the impression this information wasn't worth having, it certainly is. While Dioxide addressed my perspective extremely well directly below your post, I would just reiterate that it seems exceedingly unlikely this is coming from someone other than sales.
> 
> The people designing the program didn't watch training videos for information, they created training videos for salespeople to watch. Other comments "owners are trusting us and buying" are softer indications of a sales focus.
> 
> I wasn't saying any of it is wrong, and it does have a ring of truth. Just that it makes sense to read (as always!) critically and consider the incentives of the source as well as other facts and evidence available to you. I'd hate to see people rush into developer retro transactions they subsequently regret.
> 
> I'm a pretty strong believer in resale TS, and think if there is any doubt giving a TS developer $10k+ is something to be carefully considered.


There is definitely a place for resale timeshares, but the trend in the industry has been getting harsher and harsher toward resale owners.  The good news is that DC as a system is weirdly friendly toward resale as long as you pay the ”education” fee.  As someone that has ownership that would be at Executive based how the ratio works I could see using that method to grow my holdings As it appears that qualified vistana ownerships are treated like enrolled weeks in DC.


----------



## DeniseM

I'm only going to address this once:

My "Source" is very knowledgeable and well-respected in the timeshare community.  Anyone who thinks I would "promote" something unethical doesn't know me, or TUG very well.  Rude responses will be deleted.


----------



## dioxide45

Sicnarf said:


> And since only DC points will be sold supposedly once the integration is completed, all unsold VSE inventory and ROFR'd units will be added to the DC Trust. So, there should more Westin and Sheraton available for DC exchange.


I am not exactly sure how they would accomplish this though. Any unsold Flex inventory has already been conveyed to and declared in one of Vistana's trusts. I don't think they can simply move those weeks over to the DC trust. Certainly any unsold weeks would get dropped into DC trust, but I doubt they are sitting on a lot of those. Of course, in the future any ROFR or foreclosures would go to DC, but that stuff is a drop in the bucket. They will need new inventory from somewhere to feed the sales machine.


----------



## dougp26364

daviator said:


> I’ve tried to keep up with this whole thread as well as the accompanying one with the Q&A from the MVC source.
> 
> I think you have to take the MVC characterization of things with a grain of salt.  There seems to be an assumption that Vistana owners are going to be chomping at the bit to enroll in and use the DC system, and that leads to comments like “Orlando units aren’t going to be worth much” and the like.
> 
> People need to remember that, so far as I can tell, there is no change if you want to keep using your unit or trading with VSN as you’ve always done.  There may be be some inventory challenges, it’s hard to know at this point, but it looks to me like nothing will really change for those who don’t want to, or can’t, use the DC system.
> 
> My ownerships are all developer purchases, so I’ll be fully eligible to participate, but I have little (and perhaps no) interest in doing so.  If enrollment is free and doesn’t change anything about my ability to use VSN, I may enroll just to have the option, but I am not chomping at the bit to use any DC resorts and am pretty sure that doing so would reduce the value I’m getting for that year's ownership.  Choice is always good and I’m happy to have the choice to access additional resorts, even if they are lower-tier than Westin, but I may never use them.
> 
> The one question I have is to whether we will ever see any new VSN resorts, branded with Westin or Sheraton.  It seems unlikely that MVW would ever want to develop any more resorts to go in VSN, but it’s possible they might want to develop more Westin properties at some point.  (I sort of doubt they’d develop any more Sheraton timeshare properties.)  So could we end up with some weirdness of having future Westin or Sheraton properties which are in DC but not VSN?  Obviously nobody knows.  For now, I think the VSN network is unlikely to grow any further.  We were lucky to get a little network growth out of the split of Vistana from Starwood a few years back.
> 
> For me, I’d probably pay to stay in a better hotel property rather than vacation in a Marriott-branded timeshare resort; I just don’t think they are that great. So many are bad hotel conversions anyway.



I sincerely doubt you will ever see more resorts developed in the Sheraton, Westin or Vistana name. In fact, my belief is that MVW will eventually rebrand everything as Marriott Vacation Club. Maybe not right away, but at some point in the future. 

When Marriott introduced the DC, there was a reasonable fee to join. Like you I initially felt I would never use it. After all I was adept at exchanging weeks and could get better value in most instances using the old weeks exchange program, and I still can if I want too. But I bought in early to protect my usage rights should I change my mind. Turns out that was a very good decision on my part. Over the years the flexibility has proven more valuable to us as our lives have changed as has our employment situations. One can never underestimate the value of keeping your options open.

The ability to book shorter stays, elect midweek check in dates, bank/borrow points and book specific view categories has proven invaluable for us. Don’t so easily discount all the additional locations ILG owners will gain access too once they have the option. 

Talking with TUG members and speaking to the general timeshare owner population is like talking to the educated and the uneducated. There are a lot more uneducated than there are TUG members. The percentage of TUG members jumping at the opportunity will likely be much smaller than the non-TUG owners, and that group of owners far out numbers those of us on TUG.


----------



## dioxide45

Sicnarf said:


> VSN fee is for Staroption exchange and available to all mandatory units including resale. But unauthorized resales can not be enrolled to the DC program without buying DC or flex points at this time.





Sicnarf said:


> Resale weeks can be enrolled, not traded in, by buying some  amounts of DC points.





Sicnarf said:


> Westin and Sheraton units exchanged to the DC program will be available to all DC owners.


You speak from a position of authority in these responses as if they are verifiable facts. Where are you obtaining your information? Has it come out of a sales presentation? Or is it just what you are interpreting from the responses Denise has provided? I question that though, because you were answering questions in the other thread before answers were provided from Denise's source. Just interested in your sources.


----------



## dioxide45

I do still beleive that there are two separate agreements between Marriott Vacations Worldwide and Marriott International regarding the licencing of the Marriott, Sheraton and Westin brands. I recall the agreement between ILG and Starwood didn't allow for new resorts to be built out under those brands. I don't recall the specific restrictions or what if anything could be used to overcome them, but I recall something about it. Just because a new Westin or Sheraton property is built, it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be available in VSE. It could simply be conveyed to the DC trust and sold that way. The resort would be voluntary and Vistana/MVC just chooses to not allow it to participate in VSE.

It is hard to tell if they will build out more Sheraton or Marriott properties. They have been actively selling undeveloped land in several places. They sold off the remaining land that was to be South Beach at Sheraton Vistana Villages. They tried to sell the land at Harbour Lake but that deal fell through. I think they are still actively marketing the undeveloped land at Shadow Ridge. Points has changed the development dynamic. As long as construction and acquisition costs are similar, instead of wanting to build in places like Orlando, Vegas or Palm Desert where point values are low, they would rather build in high value locations where they can allocate a lot of points and make more money.


----------



## Mowogo

dioxide45 said:


> I do still beleive that there are two separate agreements between Marriott Vacations Worldwide and Marriott International regarding the licencing of the Marriott, Sheraton and Westin brands. I recall the agreement between ILG and Starwood didn't allow for new resorts to be built out under those brands. I don't recall the specific restrictions or what if anything could be used to overcome them, but I recall something about it. Just because a new Westin or Sheraton property is built, it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be available in VSE. It could simply be conveyed to the DC trust and sold that way. The resort would be voluntary and Vistana/MVC just chooses to not allow it to participate in VSE.
> 
> It is hard to tell if they will build out more Sheraton or Marriott properties. They have been actively selling undeveloped land in several places. They sold off the remaining land that was to be South Beach at Sheraton Vistana Villages. They tried to sell the land at Harbour Lake but that deal fell through. I think they are still actively marketing the undeveloped land at Shadow Ridge. Points has changed the development dynamic. As long as construction and acquisition costs are similar, instead of wanting to build in places like Orlando, Vegas or Palm Desert where point values are low, they would rather build in high value locations where they can allocate a lot of points and make more money.


Places like Orlando, Palm Desert and Las Vegas existed to create inventory to sell people on the dream of that Hawaiian vacation.  Because they are overbuilt there is no real incentive to build more unless there are lots of periods where everything is full.  There is no reason to complete a resort now unless people are actually staying there.  MVW may at some point see the need to complete Grand Chateau, but that is the only construction I foresee at an overbuilt location unless there comes a time that MVW needs to start manufacturing points Quickly.


----------



## dioxide45

I expect them to spoon feed the flex trusts with only as much inventory needed to keep the sales going through to when they cut over. A bitter issue will be how they handle required Flex HomeOptions. I don't think they can easily add these to the DC trust. DC trust owns real estate as does the Flex trusts. I don't think they can convey Flex points to the DC trust since DC points are just a beneficial interest in a trust. I am sure there are lots of issues around that. So they may continue to sell a small amount of Flex inventory for a long time into the future. As long as that developer bought Flex inventory can be used in DC, then it is really the best of both worlds. It would have access to home resorts at 12-8 months and then VSN or even DC.


----------



## dioxide45

Mowogo said:


> Places like Orlando, Palm Desert and Las Vegas existed to create inventory to sell people on the dream of that Hawaiian vacation.  Because they are overbuilt there is no real incentive to build more unless there are lots of periods where everything is full.  There is no reason to complete a resort now unless people are actually staying there.  MVW may at some point see the need to complete Grand Chateau, but that is the only construction I foresee at an overbuilt location unless there comes a time that MVW needs to start manufacturing points Quickly.


That's just it, we haven't seen a new resort build out as pure points since the third tower of Grand Chateau. There have been some Pulse properties. Costa Rica is being sold as weeks and I don't know how the properties in Bali are being sold, but they certainly aren't going into DC points. Perhaps part of Asia Pacific? I also suspect some big pushes for "upgrades" to both current Vistana and Marriott owners. Vistana owners will be told they need to buy in order to play in DC and Marriott owners will be told to buy so they can stay at Westin properties that might end up costing a little more than the similarly located Marriott. They will likely churn through a bunch of inventory over the next three months. At some point Marriott will need new builds, they can't rely on ROFR and foreclosures for very long. I don't recall how much unsold inventory they are sitting on.


----------



## daviator

I wonder what all this means for the remaining build-out at WDW?  They'd been adding new buildings pretty regularly until a couple of years ago.  I think there are 4 or 5 more buildings (and maybe another pool) before that property is "finished."  

But now that they are only selling points and not specific properties, this might be one of the cheaper places for them to add inventory to the program to give them points to sell.  So maybe they'll get built.  I will ask again next time I have an owner update there, not that they ever know anything.


----------



## MICROZE

After reading everything in this thread I can surmise the following:

Developer-Units *are eligible* to participate in the DC-Program
Resale-Enrolled [Mandatory or Voluntary] *are eligible* to participate in the DC-Program

*Are Eligible*: This does not mean that these owners are automatically enrolled [no cost] within the DC-Program.
I was told at multiple sales presentations [corp + other] that there will be a Purchase [DC-Points] necessary in order to participate in the DC-Program.
Only after eligible Vistana-Owners purchased some minimal DC-Points could one gain TS-Status [Presidents, Chairmans] and/or Bonvoy-Status [Platinum, Titanium].

Anyone else heard this?


----------



## DavidnRobin

Just returned from WKORV - Wow! This has taken off. Guess I should have done an owner update last Friday, but weather was too good.

In DeniseM’s post #1… (in other thread)
She states that “Now 3 star and above get Platinum for life”

What? is this a typo? Or is the reference to ‘3 Star’ mean something else and not 3* Elite?

We’re going to need another acronym stickie - hard to keep up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sicnarf

At the end of the day, there will only be one program - the MVC DC program. The VSE points and weeks will be just another class of enrolled and un-enrolled inventory in addition to the exiting MVC inventory. Owners of enrolled VSE points and weeks will have access to what they currently have today plus the DC program.  Owners of unenrolled VSE points and weeks will continue to have access to whatever exchange system they currently have (II, VSN, Flex, etc..) Enrolled flex could be rolled into the DC program potentially but I think VSN will continue on.


----------



## bizaro86

dioxide45 said:


> I do still beleive that there are two separate agreements between Marriott Vacations Worldwide and Marriott International regarding the licencing of the Marriott, Sheraton and Westin brands. I recall the agreement between ILG and Starwood didn't allow for new resorts to be built out under those brands. I don't recall the specific restrictions or what if anything could be used to overcome them, but I recall something about it. Just because a new Westin or Sheraton property is built, it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be available in VSE. It could simply be conveyed to the DC trust and sold that way. The resort would be voluntary and Vistana/MVC just chooses to not allow it to participate in VSE.



This is correct. The spin off of Vistana from Starwood precluded anyone else from building Sheraton/Westin vacation ownership resorts, but didn't include the rights to new development, outside of the 3 hotels that were transferred (Kauai and the 2 Mexico properties). So unless they have renegotiated with the new Marriott hotels firm a ground up development couldn't use the Westin or Sheraton names. They do have rights to develop using the Marriott name without additional payment, so I would expect that would be what they do if they develop.

The only possible exception I could see would be if they converted part of an existing hotel that was Westin branded they might try and negotiate to use the Westin name for the vacation club as well. (Eg the MVC property in Washington DC)


----------



## dioxide45

DavidnRobin said:


> Just returned from WKORV - Wow! This has taken off. Guess I should have done an owner update last Friday, but weather was too good.
> 
> In DeniseM’s post #1… (in other thread)
> She states that “Now 3 star and above get Platinum for life”
> 
> What? is this a typo? Or is the reference to ‘3 Star’ mean something else and not 3* Elite?
> 
> We’re going to need another acronym stickie - hard to keep up.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


3 Star = 3* Elite


----------



## Sicnarf

MICROZE said:


> After reading everything in this thread I can surmise the following:
> 
> Developer-Units *are eligible* to participate in the DC-Program
> Resale-Enrolled [Mandatory or Voluntary] *are eligible* to participate in the DC-Program
> 
> *Are Eligible*: This does not mean that these owners are automatically enrolled [no cost] within the DC-Program.
> I was told at multiple sales presentations [corp + other] that there will be a Purchase [DC-Points] necessary in order to participate in the DC-Program.
> Only after eligible Vistana-Owners purchased some minimal DC-Points could one gain TS-Status [Presidents, Chairmans] and/or Bonvoy-Status [Platinum, Titanium].
> 
> Anyone else heard this?


No requirement to purchase unless VSE owner wants priority access to high demand Trust owned intervals. Equivalent MVC status is automatic based on VSE elite status.


----------



## dioxide45

bizaro86 said:


> This is correct. The spin off of Vistana from Starwood precluded anyone else from building Sheraton/Westin vacation ownership resorts, but didn't include the rights to new development, outside of the 3 hotels that were transferred (Kauai and the 2 Mexico properties). So unless they have renegotiated with the new Marriott hotels firm a ground up development couldn't use the Westin or Sheraton names. They do have rights to develop using the Marriott name without additional payment, so I would expect that would be what they do if they develop.
> 
> The only possible exception I could see would be if they converted part of an existing hotel that was Westin branded they might try and negotiate to use the Westin name for the vacation club as well. (Eg the MVC property in Washington DC)


From what I recall, those agreements go back to when ILG was being pressured to sell the Starwood Vacation Ownership brand (which became Vistana). That deal was made when it was still an independant ILG and thoughs were that the agreements were made in a way to force ILGs hand in selling itself or at least Vistana to Marriott Vacations Worldwide. Without the ability to build out new resorts (other than the 3), ILG was kind of stuck and thus why they ended up selling to VAC.


----------



## Sicnarf

DavidnRobin said:


> Just returned from WKORV - Wow! This has taken off. Guess I should have done an owner update last Friday, but weather was too good.
> 
> In DeniseM’s post #1… (in other thread)
> She states that “Now 3 star and above get Platinum for life”
> 
> What? is this a typo? Or is the reference to ‘3 Star’ mean something else and not 3* Elite?
> 
> We’re going to need another acronym stickie - hard to keep up.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This was clarified in a later post.


----------



## dioxide45

MICROZE said:


> After reading everything in this thread I can surmise the following:
> 
> Developer-Units *are eligible* to participate in the DC-Program
> Resale-Enrolled [Mandatory or Voluntary] *are eligible* to participate in the DC-Program
> 
> *Are Eligible*: This does not mean that these owners are automatically enrolled [no cost] within the DC-Program.
> I was told at multiple sales presentations [corp + other] that there will be a Purchase [DC-Points] necessary in order to participate in the DC-Program.
> Only after eligible Vistana-Owners purchased some minimal DC-Points could one gain TS-Status [Presidents, Chairmans] and/or Bonvoy-Status [Platinum, Titanium].
> 
> Anyone else heard this?


Based on the responses from Denise's contact, there will be no requirement to purchase anything in order to use enrolled (otherwise known as qualified) in order to use the DC program. So if you own a developer purchased or retroed ownership today, it will be able to play in DC.


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> Based on the responses from Denise's contact, there will be no requirement to purchase anything in order to use enrolled (otherwise known as qualified) in order to use the DC program. So if you own a developer purchased or retroed ownership today, it will be able to play in DC.


In our last owners update at Westin Kierland, the salesperson said the same thing - developer or retro'ed ownership does not require to spend more money to be enrolled into the new program.


----------



## CPNY

DeniseM said:


> I'm only going to address this once:
> 
> My "Source" is very knowledgeable and well-respected in the timeshare community.  Anyone who thinks I would "promote" something unethical doesn't know me, or TUG very well.  Rude responses will be deleted.


If you trust your source, I trust your source….


----------



## Mowogo

dioxide45 said:


> From what I recall, those agreements go back to when ILG was being pressured to sell the Starwood Vacation Ownership brand (which became Vistana). That deal was made when it was still an independant ILG and thoughs were that the agreements were made in a way to force ILGs hand in selling itself or at least Vistana to Marriott Vacations Worldwide. Without the ability to build out new resorts (other than the 3), ILG was kind of stuck and thus why they ended up selling to VAC.


And I could see expansion of the Sheraton and Westin brands on timeshares, but only in the specific situation of a market where they are building another property in existing markets Where Marriott hotels might want to get the other brand name there without having a property.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Sicnarf said:


> This was clarified in a later post.



I finally got that far thanks.
The sentence is written oddly.
Because ‘Now’ 3* is Gold, but assume going forward from now 3* and above is Platinum.
But… what does Platinum mean in the background of the new Marriott levels?

Sorry - I know little about Marriott other than their IT group sucks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MICROZE

VacationForever said:


> In our last owners update at Westin Kierland, the salesperson said the same thing - developer or retro'ed ownership does not require to spend more money to be enrolled into the new program.


This is the exact opposite of what we were told at last week's Marriott Virtual-Presentation [via Teams] from Corp.
This is also what was conveyed to us at the last few presentations.

Being hybrid owners [Marriott + Vistana] I explicitly asked if Vistana-Owners like myself would be able to participate in the DC-Program and was told very clearly *"Not unless you purchased additional DC-Points"*

Will wait and see and hope we don't have to shell out any more money.


----------



## pchung6

It is purely my speculation. Vistana week owners, (All developer or resale, All mandatory or voluntary), might need to buy a small number of points like 1000-1500 DC pts in order to enroll. Probably Flex Pts owners can be enrolled for free or a small fee. Does anyone know or remember when Marriott launched DC pts 10+ yrs ago, legacy Marriott week owners needed to purchase points or enrollment fees?


----------



## VacationForever

MICROZE said:


> This is the exact opposite of what we were told at last week's Marriott Virtual-Presentation [via Teams] from Corp.
> This is also what was conveyed to us at the last few presentations.
> 
> Being hybrid owners [Marriott + Vistana] I explicitly asked if Vistana-Owners like myself would be able to participate in the DC-Program and was told very clearly *"Not unless you purchased additional DC-Points"*
> 
> Will wait and see and hope we don't have to shell out any more money.


If you have been reading Denise's posts, the answer which she received was that there will not be an enrollment fee for Vistana developer and requalified ownership.


----------



## divenski

When people say that Marriott's IT is bad, are they referring to the hotel or timeshare side? I was about to post that the TS system has always worked well for me.

Having said that, I just tried doing a search for next year in MVCI and got this message. Most likely though, this is due to the upcoming integration as I have never seen this before.


----------



## divenski

pchung6 said:


> It is purely my speculation. Vistana week owners, (All developer or resale, All mandatory or voluntary), might need to buy a small number of points like 1000-1500 DC pts in order to enroll. Probably Flex Pts owners can be enrolled for free or a small fee. Does anyone know or remember when Marriott launched DC pts 10+ yrs ago, legacy Marriott week owners needed to purchase points or enrollment fees?



There was a modest enrollment fee, maybe $500 for developer weeks, which is a lot less than a 1000 DC points. A resale required more, maybe $1K, but still not too bad.


----------



## dioxide45

DavidnRobin said:


> I finally got that far thanks.
> The sentence is written oddly.
> Because ‘Now’ 3* is Gold, but assume going forward from now 3* and above is Platinum.
> But… what does Platinum mean in the background of the new Marriott levels?
> 
> Sorry - I know little about Marriott other than their IT group sucks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think the whole thing is confusing. It should really say that 3* Elite will be at least Platinum. They expect they actually match up to the Marriott levels as follows;

3* - MVC Executive - Bonvoy Platinum
4* - MVC Presidential - Bonvoy Titanium
5* - MVC Chairman's Club - Bonvoy Titanium

There are benefits that come with the MVC levels with regard to timeshare ownership and other benefits that come with the Bonvoy levels at Marriott hotel properties (and timeshare properties).


----------



## MICROZE

pchung6 said:


> It is purely my speculation. Vistana week owners, (All developer or resale, All mandatory or voluntary), *might need to buy a small number of points like 1000-1500 DC pts in order to enroll*. Probably Flex Pts owners can be enrolled for free or a small fee. Does anyone know or remember when Marriott launched DC pts 10+ yrs ago, legacy Marriott week owners needed to purchase points or enrollment fees?


This is my expectation too.

If *this *is the case [Vistana-Owners need to pay to play] many on this thread will be very disappointed.


----------



## TravelTime

I am confused by a reply Denise got. Her source said you need to upgrade resale weeks before it goes live. How will be know when to do that? How will be know what the live date is if it is not announced until it is live?

Also I got confused but did the source say resale owners can upgrade? And for no fee?


----------



## dioxide45

divenski said:


> There was a modest enrollment fee, maybe $500 for developer weeks, which is a lot less than a 1000 DC points. A resale required more, maybe $1K, but still not too bad.


The original Marriott DC enrollment fees were as follows.

1 Direct Week - $595
2 or more Direct Weeks - $695
1 External Week - $1,495
2 or more External Weeks - $1,995


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> I am confused by a reply Denise got. Her source said you need to upgrade resale weeks before it goes live. How will be know when to do that? How will be know what the live date is if it is not announced until it is live?
> 
> Also I got confused but did the source say resale owners can upgrade? And for no fee?


I don't see where the source said resale owners could upgrade for no fee. I am sure between now and June there will be a big push to get people through the sales floor to "upgrade". Even as they have done up to now, they will tell everyone they need some Flex in order to participate. That doesn't look to be true unless you need to retro some resale weeks.


----------



## SueDonJ

DavidnRobin said:


> I finally got that far thanks.
> The sentence is written oddly.
> Because ‘Now’ 3* is Gold, but assume going forward from now 3* and above is Platinum.
> But… what does Platinum mean in the background of the new Marriott levels?
> 
> Sorry - I know little about Marriott other than their IT group sucks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



This "Benefits At A Glance" chart differentiates benefits according to the status tiers of ownership (Owner, Select, Executive, Presidential, Chairman's Club) in Marriott Vacations Worldwide:
https://www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/common/cms/mvc/pdfs/owners/Owner-Benefit-Level.pdf
The bottom line shows which Bonvoy status is conferred with Destination Club status.

The "Benefits At A Glance" chart about halfway down this page differentiates benefits according to the status tiers of membership (Member, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Titanium, Ambassador) in Marriott, International's Bonvoy loyalty program:
https://www.marriott.com/loyalty/member-benefits.mi

According to the info Denise posted in her Q&A thread: "_Here is some basic info: 3 Star members get Executive, 4 Star, Presidential, and 5 Star, Chairman, regardless of how many DC points they convert to. Now all 3 Star and above get Platinum for life._" Toggling between the two programs makes it a little confusing but I would assume:

- 3* confers the same Bonvoy status as Destination Club Executive membership confers, i.e. Platinum
- 4* confers the same Bonvoy status as Destination Club Presidential membership confers, i.e. Titanium
- 5* confers the same Bonvoy status as Destination Club Chairman's Club membership confers, i.e. Titanium

***********************
At the least this post will help you figure out which ownership/membership terms apply to either Marriott owners or Bonvoy members, but as time goes on maybe more of the info in the charts will start making some sense related to upcoming Vistana changes, too.


----------



## pacman777

SueDonJ said:


> This "Benefits At A Glance" chart differentiates benefits according to the status tiers of ownership (Owner, Select, Executive, Presidential, Chairman's Club) in Marriott Vacations Worldwide:
> https://www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/common/cms/mvc/pdfs/owners/Owner-Benefit-Level.pdf
> The bottom line shows which Bonvoy status is conferred with Destination Club status.



Not much difference in benefits between Chairman, Presidential and Executive (other than Chairman getting Bonvoy Titanium status which is the top hotel-side status tier). Most of those benefits listed seem pretty useless and just marketing BS.


----------



## mindy35

I probably know the answer to this but I just received the call from the concierge for our upcoming visit which included an invitation to schedule our owner's appt. We had already gone to our owners meeting in December (the first time in years) so that we might learn what to expect from this merger only to be informed of  the "possibilities". We left w/o much information and said "never again".

But now she said the new program was unveiled this past Thurs? Should we stay or should we go? Anyone go since Thurs and actually learn anything new worth the 90 mins?


----------



## dioxide45

pacman777 said:


> Not much difference in benefits between Chairman, Presidential and Executive (other than Chairman getting Bonvoy Titanium status which is the top hotel-side status tier). Most of those benefits listed seem pretty useless and just marketing BS.


Presidential and Chairman's Club both get Bonvoy Titanium. The only real benefit between Chairman's and Presidential is the extended banking window and additional Bonvoy conversion no real value in Bonvoy conversion).


----------



## SueDonJ

pacman777 said:


> Not much difference in benefits between Chairman, Presidential and Executive (other than Chairman getting Bonvoy Titanium status which is the top hotel-side status tier). Most of those benefits listed seem pretty useless and just marketing BS.


I think the extended Reservation and Banking Windows and cash/points discounts for last-minute stays have been quite valuable but that's because I use them as often as I can. We intend to make good use of the Preferred Access and Luxury Collection offers as time goes on, too. (Don and I would have already been in this pattern if COVID hadn't hit because his retirement coincided with COVID, but going forward they're a definite possibility.)

Like any other timeshare program, all of the benefits are useless if you don't use them. If you do, the benefits with the Destination Club's upper status tiers aren't just excess worthless baggage good only for enticing new sales.


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## MICROZE

dioxide45 said:


> I don't see where the source said resale owners could upgrade for no fee. I am sure between now and June there will be a big push to get people through the sales floor to "upgrade". Even as they have done up to now, they will tell everyone they need some Flex in order to participate. That doesn't look to be true unless you need to retro some resale weeks.


I hope you are right. As we too are not looking forward to having to spend any more money.

However, I am pretty sure I heard what I heard [some from people I have known for many years and trust].
They were quite clear that ALL Vistana-Owners [including Direct + Retro] would have to buy [not sure how much] to participate in the DC-Program.

This is the last of my posts as I feel like I am debating based on speculation and hearsay.
All I can do now is "wait and see" until the details are formally published.


----------



## robertk2012

[Your combative posts are not welcome in this thread.  I strongly recommend that you take a break. DeniseM]


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> I don't see where the source said resale owners could upgrade for no fee. I am sure between now and June there will be a big push to get people through the sales floor to "upgrade". Even as they have done up to now, they will tell everyone they need some Flex in order to participate. That doesn't look to be true unless you need to retro some resale weeks.



Here were a few responses that confused me:

does mandatory resale week and voluntary weeks have capability to elect marriott points, or only enrolled weeks are allowed?
NO resales qualify and once live we will not retro weeks, they are out of luck

What is the cost, if any, for Vistana owners to participate in the new program (Either an “enrollment fee” or purchase requirement) and is it different if they are already Marriott points owners (trust or enrolled)?
No cost to enroll in DC points. The VSN club dues will change, more to come, its actually higher but better, no more fees after that


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> Here were a few responses that confused me:
> 
> does mandatory resale week and voluntary weeks have capability to elect marriott points, or only enrolled weeks are allowed?
> NO resales qualify and once live we will not retro weeks, they are out of luck
> 
> What is the cost, if any, for Vistana owners to participate in the new program (Either an “enrollment fee” or purchase requirement) and is it different if they are already Marriott points owners (trust or enrolled)?
> No cost to enroll in DC points. The VSN club dues will change, more to come, its actually higher but better, no more fees after that


Based on Denise's post, I gather the following:
- Developer purchased or "qualified"/"retro'ed" weeks and Flex points can be enrolled into MVC DC, with no enrollment fee.  The club dues will be increased as it includes free II Marriott and Vistana trades.  There will also be no banking fee.  You can only elect DC points for enrolled ownership.
- Resale mandatory and voluntary weeks and points which have not been "qualified"/"retro'ed", require Flex (current) or MVC (future) points purchase to qualify / retro these resale weeks/flex points in order to make them enrollable.


----------



## dioxide45

In basic terms, based on my understanding from the responses;

Resale Voluntary (unqualified) - No VSN : Won't be able to participate
Resale Mandatory (unqualified) - Yes in VSN : Won't be able to participate
Resale Requalified (you bought a vistana week or flex to make your week as good as direct - Yes in VSN : Yes can participate
Retail Direct - Yes in VSN : Yes can participate
An even easier way to look at it;
Can you convert your VOI to Bonvoy Points?

If Yes, then you will be able to convert to Club Points
If No, then you won't be able to convert to Club Points
Club Points=MVC DC Points


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## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> An even easier way to look at it;
> Can you convert your VOI to Bonvoy Points?
> 
> If Yes, then you will be able to convert to Club Points
> If No, then you won't be able to convert to Club Points
> Club Points=MVC DC Points



I’ve been saying this during all of the speculation since I joined TUG and boy oh boy did people jump all over me.


----------



## Red elephant

MICROZE said:


> After reading everything in this thread I can surmise the following:
> 
> Developer-Units *are eligible* to participate in the DC-Program
> Resale-Enrolled [Mandatory or Voluntary] *are eligible* to participate in the DC-Program
> 
> *Are Eligible*: This does not mean that these owners are automatically enrolled [no cost] within the DC-Program.
> I was told at multiple sales presentations [corp + other] that there will be a Purchase [DC-Points] necessary in order to participate in the DC-Program.
> Only after eligible Vistana-Owners purchased some minimal DC-Points could one gain TS-Status [Presidents, Chairmans] and/or Bonvoy-Status [Platinum, Titanium].
> 
> Anyone else heard this?
> [/QUOT


----------



## divenski

dioxide45 said:


> In basic terms, based on my understanding from the responses;
> 
> Resale Voluntary (unqualified) - No VSN : Won't be able to participate
> Resale Mandatory (unqualified) - Yes in VSN : Won't be able to participate
> Resale Requalified (you bought a vistana week or flex to make your week as good as direct - Yes in VSN : Yes can participate
> Retail Direct - Yes in VSN : Yes can participate
> An even easier way to look at it;
> Can you convert your VOI to Bonvoy Points?
> 
> If Yes, then you will be able to convert to Club Points
> If No, then you won't be able to convert to Club Points
> Club Points=MVC DC Points



And overall, this plan is about what could have been expected as it will treat Vistana and Marriott resale owners the same. If someone who is even already in the MVC DC buys a week resale, it can't be converted to Bonvoy points or enrolled into the DC without buying points. It's use it, rent it, or deal with II, which is the same situation as Voluntary weeks in Vistana.

One date I don't remember is, when did MVC start allowing resale owners to enroll in the DC by buying points? I'm fairly sure it was at least a couple of years after the DC was started in 2010, and maybe longer due to the long recovery from the recession.


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## dioxide45

divenski said:


> And overall, this plan is about what could have been expected as it will treat Vistana and Marriott resale owners the same. If someone who is even already in the MVC DC buys a week resale, it can't be converted to Bonvoy points or enrolled into the DC without buying points. It's use it, rent it, or deal with II, which is the same situation as Voluntary weeks in Vistana.
> 
> One date I don't remember is, when did MVC start allowing resale owners to enroll in the DC by buying points? I'm fairly sure it was at least a couple of years after the DC was started in 2010, and maybe longer due to the long recovery from the recession.


It will do that as of now, but not sure I would say they are treating them the same. When Marriott rolled out DC, they allowed resale owners to enroll their weeks, albeit for a higher fee. They could allow resale Vistana weeks to do that with the new program, but it doesn't look like they will.

I am not exactly sure when they started the "summer promotion" to allow post June 2010 resale weeks to enroll with a DC point purchase. I tried searching the Marriott forum for the first thread about it, but it isn't an easy find.


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## divenski

I was more referring to current Marriott resale owners as they don't have the 2010 modest fee option anymore.


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## MICROZE

divenski said:


> I was more referring to current Marriott resale owners as they don't have the 2010 modest fee option anymore.


Thank you for your excellent analogy and apples-apples comparison.


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## Red elephant

MICROZE said:


> Thank you for your excellent analogy and apples-apples comparison.


If the current Marriott resale  owners cannot be part of the DC program then it would make sense that the current Vistana resale owners cannot either. Both have to purchase points to partake . I don’t believe the ability to do that will go away. Maybe will be periodic.


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## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> I’ve been saying this during all of the speculation since I joined TUG and boy oh boy did people jump all over me.


I was told long ago by someone in central office that that unenrolled  resale owners where not going to be part of the new system unless they enrolled.


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## daviator

pacman777 said:


> Not much difference in benefits between Chairman, Presidential and Executive (other than Chairman getting Bonvoy Titanium status which is the top hotel-side status tier). Most of those benefits listed seem pretty useless and just marketing BS.


As pointed out, both Presidential and Chairman get Bonvoy Titanium.  Titanium is NOT the top hotel-side status tier, the top Bonvoy status is Ambassador.  However, Ambassador has a spending requirement ($10,000, I think, though I haven't looked lately) which those of us who get many of our elite nights from timeshare stays are unlikely to ever meet.


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## tomandrobin

Man o man.....I have a lot of reading to do. Been away for too long apparently.


----------



## jabberwocky

daviator said:


> As pointed out, both Presidential and Chairman get Bonvoy Titanium.  Titanium is NOT the top hotel-side status tier, the top Bonvoy status is Ambassador.  However, Ambassador has a spending requirement ($10,000, I think, though I haven't looked lately) which those of us who get many of our elite nights from timeshare stays are unlikely to ever meet.


It’s actually $20k for ambassador. Now if they counted MFs for some TUG members towards tha it would be easy. But they don’t.


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## CalGalTraveler

MICROZE said:


> This is my expectation too.
> 
> If *this *is the case [Vistana-Owners need to pay to play] many on this thread will be very disappointed.




IMHO...I believe this is good for Vistana inventory in VSN and bad for MVC owners who want to reserve VSN.

1) Enrolled mandatory Vistana weeks owners don't elect DC until Oct prior to the use year. 12 month Vistana Owner reservations for whale and summer weeks occur prior to the DC deposit deadline.  Why deposit in DP when you can change 60 days prior to your reservation in the use year and use/bank SOs  if your plans change?

2)  If a VSN owner must pay $13,000 - $20,000 plus $1800 every year in MF for just 1000 - 1500 DC there is little value in the DC points if you primarily use your unit. DC points would be orphans. Owners can trade VSN for free and without the MF overhead. For other than a few MVC trades that is too much money for once in a blue moon flexibility.  Much more lucrative to rent out the unit. We also own HGVC which we can use for short stay flexibility and to extend stays in many of the same locations. YMMV. I recognize that our situation is different.

After a decade of this type of DP buy-in MVC only has 60% of their units enrolled per an MVC disclosure in 2020.  Many of the best Lahaina MOC units are not enrolled because owners use or rent. I see a similar scenario for VSN.

There are situations where DC would make sense i.e. if you own SVN voluntary traders, or also own in MVC and want to integrate your ownerships and want flexibility.


----------



## Mowogo

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMHO...I believe this is good for Vistana inventory in VSN and bad for MVC owners who want to reserve VSN.
> 
> 1) The vast majority of Vistana weeks will be enrolled vs. DP. Enrolled mandatory Vistana weeks owners don't elect DC until Oct prior to the use year. 12 month Vistana Owner reservations for whale and summer weeks occur prior to the DC deposit deadline.  Why deposit in DP when you can change 60 days prior to your reservation in the use year and use/bank SOs  if your plans change?
> 
> 2)  If a VSN owner one must pay $13,000 - $20,000 plus $1800 every year in MF for just 1000 - 1500 DC there is little value in the DC points if you primarily use your unit. DC points would be orphans to us. Owners can trade VSN for free and without the MF overhead. For other than a few MVC trades that is too much money for once in a blue moon flexibility.  We own in HGVC which we can use for short stay flexibility and to extend stays in many of the same locations. YMMV.
> 
> After a decade of this type of DP buy-in MVC only has 60% of their units enrolled per an MVC disclosure in 2020.  Many of the best Lahaina MOC units are not enrolled because owners use or rent. I see a similar scenario for VSN.
> 
> There are situations where DC would make sense i.e. if you own SVN voluntary traders, or also own in MVC and want to integrate your ownerships and want flexibility.


I'd say it depends on searching ability.  If you can search DC before making election then it really is the best of both worlds as you can search for availability and then opt into whichever program gives you what you need.  And remember that the DC calendar starts at 13 months which depending on where one wants to trade might be worth it for some family vacations.  Given that there is relatively little premium inventory in the flex trusts, I could definitely see owners getting value out of Flex opting for DC, especially if any bookings are in mid to lower demand seasons


----------



## CPNY

Mowogo said:


> I'd say it depends on searching ability.  If you can search DC before making election then it really is the best of both worlds as you can search for availability and then opt into whichever program gives you what you need.  And remember that the DC calendar starts at 13 months which depending on where one wants to trade might be worth it for some family vacations.  Given that there is relatively little premium inventory in the flex trusts, I could definitely see owners getting value out of Flex opting for DC, especially if any bookings are in mid to lower demand seasons


Regarding 13-12 months in reservations, people just don’t want to book so far in advance anymore. The TS industry needs to adapt.


----------



## Mowogo

CPNY said:


> Regarding 13-12 months in reservations, people just don’t want to book so far in advance anymore. The TS industry needs to adapt.


This is a problem at the popular hotels that people like to redeem their hotel awards for (If you've ever looked at places like Grand Wailea or the Andaz Maui you understand).  The only way to solve high demand for timeshare properties in a given location is to build more.  The whole idea behind trusts is to simplify that exchange for the end user by essentially expanding the home resort priority to different resorts.  And for those families that plan big holiday vacations the value you can get makes the price of booking early more palatable.


----------



## Eric B

CPNY said:


> Regarding 13-12 months in reservations, people just don’t want to book so far in advance anymore. The TS industry needs to adapt.



Sounds like another test to see if I'm a robot...  I have non-fixed week reservations booked through November 2023 for the ones I can make already and have just a few ones to book between now and then to fill in once those reservation windows open.  (It doesn't really seem fair that corporations are people, too, but I'm not!)


----------



## jabberwocky

CPNY said:


> Regarding 13-12 months in reservations, people just don’t want to book so far in advance anymore. The TS industry needs to adapt.


Exactly. While I do make some home resort bookings at 12 months for places like WKORVN, I actually prefer the 8 month VSN window. We don’t really have a clue as to whether vacation time for my spouse will be approved or school vacation dates 12 months in advance.  Anything done at 13 months would be highly speculative and I can really only seeing it benefiting those who rent their unit or are retired and/or have completely flexible schedules. 

By 8 months out we have a pretty good idea of what our schedules will be and as a result will rarely need to make changes.


----------



## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> Exactly. While I do make some home resort bookings at 12 months for places like WKORVN, I actually prefer the 8 month VSN window. We don’t really have a clue as to whether vacation time for my spouse will be approved or school vacation dates 12 months in advance.  Anything done at 13 months would be highly speculative and I can really only seeing it benefiting those who rent their unit or are retired and/or have completely flexible schedules.
> 
> By 8 months out we have a pretty good idea of what our schedules will be and as a result will rarely need to make changes.


Right. I booked a trip for this May 10 months ago and while it’s exciting; there were a lot of really important events that popped up that I had to turn down because of this trip. I also prefer 8 months, but sometimes even that seems really far in advance.

Most young people and young families are more likely to book last minute trips or begin looking for a trip around the 4 month mark. I wouldn’t mind if they held back inventory and released a bit at a time, giving you more opportunities to book via points.


----------



## duke

Is there a date when the Bonvoy Titanium and Platinum will be updated for Vistana Elites?  ie:  5Star = Titanium?


----------



## dioxide45

duke said:


> Is there a date when the Bonvoy Titanium and Platinum will be updated for Vistana Elites?  ie:  5Star = Titanium?


I would expect it won't happen until after the full integration in June. It may not even happen until January/February 2023 given the timing on how they update status.


----------



## pchung6

Seriously, as an VSN mandatory resale owner, I still don’t see anything appealing I want to enroll even it’s free. Maybe the free Interval exchange is the only thing I see value added. Anything else I’ve seen or heard so far about the new program, no thanks.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> Seriously, as an VSN mandatory resale owner, I still don’t see anything appealing I want to enroll even it’s free. Maybe the free Interval exchange is the only thing I see value added. Anything else I’ve seen or heard so far about the new program, no thanks.


The interval exchange for no fee would be great for those who exchange. There are so many owners who don’t even know they get interval membership included in their VSN fee currently. There will be a small percentage of owners who will benefit from no fee exchanges. Most vistana owners are accustomed to booking their home resort or using the SO in the VSN. But I agree with you, I have no desire to elect for DC points so I’m not looking forward to retro any units for that access. I’ll stick with my VSN until it’s dead. Once that happens, then I’ll use interval as much as I can.


----------



## dioxide45

As a mandatory resale owner, a benefit for me if we could even enroll would be to achieve at least Executive status in the DC program. That is if the combined Club Points from Vistana plus the Club Points from our Marriott ownership could be combined for this higher status. This would allow for 1+ night 13 month reservations as well as a 25% discount on 30 day point reservations. While we don't use points very often, we sometimes rent last minute and using those points for some discounted stays would be good for us.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> As a mandatory resale owner, a benefit for me if we could even enroll would be to achieve at least Executive status in the DC program. That is if the combined Club Points from Vistana plus the Club Points from our Marriott ownership could be combined for this higher status. This would allow for 1+ night 13 month reservations as well as a 25% discount on 30 day point reservations. While we don't use points very often, we sometimes rent last minute and using those points for some discounted stays would be good for us.


Apparently you can combine for status***. According to someone on the Vistana/Marriott FB page who did an owners update today, they were shown a website that has a conversion calculator. 162K Sheraton Flex was giving them 4730 DC points. Here is where the “you can combine” part comes in. The sales rep*** was getting them to buy 2500 points to get them to the corresponding level that 7K DC points will give.

photos of the calculator were posted.


----------



## pchung6

dioxide45 said:


> As a mandatory resale owner, a benefit for me if we could even enroll would be to achieve at least Executive status in the DC program. That is if the combined Club Points from Vistana plus the Club Points from our Marriott ownership could be combined for this higher status. This would allow for 1+ night 13 month reservations as well as a 25% discount on 30 day point reservations. While we don't use points very often, we sometimes rent last minute and using those points for some discounted stays would be good for us.


I’m not sure about 13 month reservation beside booking it for rental. My home resort is 12 month, I don’t understand how they can create new rule to supersede the deed week. Marriott can do whatever they want, I just stick to my VSN till death. I think currently VSN also has discount for last minute booking. For me, I have zero none interest in anything from Marriott beside Ko Olina. I will stay in VSN as long as I can.


----------



## dsmrp

pchung6 said:


> Seriously, as an VSN mandatory resale owner, I still don’t see anything appealing I want to enroll even it’s free. Maybe the free Interval exchange is the only thing I see value added. Anything else I’ve seen or heard so far about the new program, no thanks.





CPNY said:


> The interval exchange for no fee would be great for those who exchange, there are so many owners who don’t even know they get interval membership included in their VSN fee currently. There will be a small percentage of owners who will benefit from no fee exchanges. Most vistana owners are accustomed to booking their home resort or using the SO in the VSN. But I agree with you, I have no desire to elect for DC points so I’m not looking forward to retro any units for that access. I’ll stick with my VSN until it’s dead. Once that happens, then I’ll use interval as much as I can.



From Denise's contacts answers, it appears that Flex point owners will have free II exchanges, but weeks owners will not. They'll continue to have discounted Vistana to Marriott exchanges as we do now.  Perhaps he/she was mis-understanding the question.  I would think that eligible weeks owners electing to DC points would have no cost exchanges (included in the revised MVC club fee)


----------



## dsmrp

CPNY said:


> Apparently you can combine for status***. According to someone on the Vistana/Marriott FB page who did an owners update today, they were shown a website that has a conversion calculator. 162K Sheraton Flex was giving them 4730 DC points. Here is where the “you can combine” part comes in. The sales rep*** was getting them to buy 2500 points to get them to the corresponding level that 7K DC points will give.
> 
> photos of the calculator were posted.


162K flex points should qualify the person for Vistana 3* Elite, assuming 1 Flex pt = 1 star option. It was stated several times that 3* Elite would be given the Executive MVC status level which starts at 7000 club pts.  Why would this Flex owner need to buy additional pts to get to Executive level?


----------



## CPNY

dsmrp said:


> From Denise's contacts answers, it appears that Flex point owners will have free II exchanges, but weeks owners will not. They'll continue to have discounted Vistana to Marriott exchanges as we do now.  Perhaps he/she was mis-understanding the question.  I would think that eligible weeks owners electing to DC points would have no cost exchanges (included in the revised MVC club fee)


I would agree, don’t enrolled Marriott weeks owners get free Marriott to Marriott exchanges? I would assume enrolled VSE weeks would have the same if the VSN fee is increasing. As an unenrolled mandatory resale owner I’ll be annoyed if they increase my VSN without the added benefits. Then it’s just a price hike. This is also why I posted we need clarification on the “it seems that if you pay the VSN fee you’re eligible to convert” which was followed up with “I need more information but it seems only enrolled weeks will have ability to convert”. Which is it? Since all ownerships in the VSN regardless of enrolled status pay the VSN membership fee


----------



## pchung6

dsmrp said:


> From Denise's contacts answers, it appears that Flex point owners will have free II exchanges, but weeks owners will not. They'll continue to have discounted Vistana to Marriott exchanges as we do now.  Perhaps he/she was mis-understanding the question.  I would think that eligible weeks owners electing to DC points would have no cost exchanges (included in the revised MVC club fee)


Thanks for clarifying. I really cannot see a reason to spend $20K+ to retro just to join new program. Everything I own in VSN is amazing. I don’t like anything from Marriott. Anything this company does, I just dislike. I won’t even join for free. I just stick to VSN until it’s totally dead and killed by Marriott.


----------



## CPNY

dsmrp said:


> 162K flex points should qualify the person for Vistana 3* Elite, assuming 1 Flex pt = 1 star option. It was stated several times that 3* Elite would be given the Executive MVC status level which starts at 7000 club pts.  Why would this Flex owner need to buy additional pts to get to Executive level?


Um because a sales rep said so lol.


----------



## dsmrp

CPNY said:


> Um because a sales rep said so lol.


Buyer beware


----------



## YYJMSP

jabberwocky said:


> It’s actually $20k for ambassador. Now if they counted MFs for some TUG members towards tha it would be easy. But they don’t.



There's no real change in benefits from Titanium to Ambassador.

Same elite points.  Same lounge/breakfast/upgrade access. 

Your24 is pretty much never OKed.  Personal contact point is email 2days later from a pool of reps.  No real extras for recognition. 

For the life of me, I can't think of what other benefits there are. 

In the old days, it was definitely better...


----------



## CPNY

I get nothing as a titanium. I get a thank you and that’s about it. I was once “upgraded”. The  put me in was smaller than the room I booked. THANKS MARRIOTT


----------



## kozykritter

dsmrp said:


> 162K flex points should qualify the person for Vistana 3* Elite, assuming 1 Flex pt = 1 star option. It was stated several times that 3* Elite would be given the Executive MVC status level which starts at 7000 club pts.  Why would this Flex owner need to buy additional pts to get to Executive level?


Not if their flex ownership was all in one VOI contract. For any Vistana elite level you need two or more VOI contracts. It would be far cheaper for them to buy a second Sheraton flex VOI of minimum amount which I think is 20,700 options which costs about $8,000 rather than buying 2,500 DC points which will cost three times as much. Then they would have 3* which converts to Executive according to Denise's contact.


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> I get nothing as a titanium. I get a thank you and that’s about it. I was once “upgraded”. The  put me in was smaller than the room I booked. THANKS MARRIOTT


I've been SPG platinum for many years and titanium with Marriott last 4 years. I got almost nothing since Marriott dissolved SPG. Not even room upgrade last 3 years. Last month I was in Cupertino visiting a client, I got 2 bottles of water and that was it. I asked to use business lounge to meet/talk with client, Marriott front desk gave me cold face in front of my client and didn't even offer us beers said the card is not functioning, so we can only stay but can't open refrig. Never happened with SPG. When it was SPG at the hotel i stayed frequently, employees would immediately recognize me and knew what I wanted. SPG took care of me very well.


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> In basic terms, based on my understanding from the responses;
> 
> Resale Voluntary (unqualified) - No VSN : Won't be able to participate
> Resale Mandatory (unqualified) - Yes in VSN : Won't be able to participate
> Resale Requalified (you bought a vistana week or flex to make your week as good as direct - Yes in VSN : Yes can participate
> Retail Direct - Yes in VSN : Yes can participate
> An even easier way to look at it;
> Can you convert your VOI to Bonvoy Points?
> 
> If Yes, then you will be able to convert to Club Points
> If No, then you won't be able to convert to Club Points
> Club Points=MVC DC Points



Thank you for your explanation. It sounds like folks are interpreting the responses from Denise’s source to mean it is possible that Vistana mandatory week owners may be able to convert to MVC DPs if they purchase DPs to qualify the mandatory week. Am I understanding this correctly?

I am not sure I recall where he directly said this. Did the source actually state this or are we interpreting that he said this.


----------



## Eric B

TravelTime said:


> Thank you for your explanation. It sounds like folks are interpreting the responses from Denise’s source to mean it is possible that Vistana mandatory week owners may be able to convert to MVC DPs if they purchase DPs to qualify the mandatory week. Am I understanding this correctly?
> 
> I am not sure I recall where he directly said this. Did the source actually state this or are we interpreting that he said this.



I don't believe the source said that unqualified Vistana mandatory ownerships would be eligible to convert to MVC DPs.  I believe that what the source said was that they would not be eligible, but also said that ownerships for which someone pays a VSN fee would be eligible to convert - this is somewhat contradictory.  There was also some discussion of increased VSN fees that would cover a number of things that may or may not include having the ability to convert to MVC DPs.  In the end, I don't have the impression that the source had a great understanding of what was being asked so I'm waiting to see what comes out in writing in an official announcement.  I've always preferred to be able to refer to the terms and conditions directly rather than what someone in sales thinks they say and I don't believe that sales actually has them yet.


----------



## TravelTime

Eric B said:


> I don't believe the source said that unqualified Vistana mandatory ownerships would be eligible to convert to MVC DPs.  I believe that what the source said was that they would not be eligible, but also said that ownerships for which someone pays a VSN fee would be eligible to convert - this is somewhat contradictory.  There was also some discussion of increased VSN fees that would cover a number of things that may or may not include having the ability to convert to MVC DPs.  In the end, I don't have the impression that the source had a great understanding of what was being asked so I'm waiting to see what comes out in writing in an official announcement.  I've always preferred to be able to refer to the terms and conditions directly rather than what someone in sales thinks they say and I don't believe that sales actually has them yet.



Yes this is what I was interpreting too. I was confused with things the source said and also saw contradictions. I think “wait and see” makes sense.


----------



## CVC

dsmrp said:


> 162K flex points should qualify the person for Vistana 3* Elite, assuming 1 Flex pt = 1 star option. It was stated several times that 3* Elite would be given the Executive MVC status level which starts at 7000 club pts.  Why would this Flex owner need to buy additional pts to get to Executive level?


Because they own Sheraton Flex and it supposedly the second lowest conversion rate (according to other posts).  The executive level has to be 7000 MVC and their Sheraton flex only got them to 4730.


----------



## tamu_bu

Mowogo said:


> I'd say it depends on searching ability.  If you can search DC before making election then it really is the best of both worlds as you can search for availability and then opt into whichever program gives you what you need.


Denise's follow up from Mr.X answered this question that I asked. 

Q. When electing to convert annual SO's into DC, will one have the ability to view Marriott availability before finalizing the conversion?

Mr.X. NO, keep in mind you can book Vistana if you convert so there is nothing to lose."


----------



## Mowogo

CVC said:


> Because they own Sheraton Flex and it supposedly the second lowest conversion rate (according to other posts).  The executive level has to be 7000 MVC and their Sheraton flex only got them to 4730.


The system is set up to handle grandfathering even when not at the minimum for the standard.  The benefits of 3* align closer to Executive so it makes sense to start there.  Also from an enrollment incentive there are enough owners at the 3 star level where the Marriott figures the minimal cost of having elites below the executive level grandfathered is a minimal cost to provide more reason for them to trade into DC initially.


----------



## byeloe

tamu_bu said:


> Denise's follow up from Mr.X answered this question that I asked.
> 
> Q. When electing to convert annual SO's into DC, will one have the ability to view Marriott availability before finalizing the conversion?
> 
> Mr.X. NO, keep in mind you can book Vistana if you convert so there is nothing to lose."


This statement is confusing.   How can you still book vistana if you convert?


----------



## sharr7

Assuming there will be DC values (or conversion factors?) for DC owners to book Vistana SO weeks - so maybe you can convert SO to DC and then book a Vistana resort with DC?

If so you probably lose value in the conversion each time but that's probably not something sales mentions.


----------



## Mowogo

byeloe said:


> This statement is confusing.   How can you still book vistana if you convert?


Because you will be able to book the Vistana inventory that has been deposited into DC.


----------



## jabberwocky

byeloe said:


> This statement is confusing.   How can you still book vistana if you convert?


When a person elects to convert from Vistana to DC that week then becomes available via DC points for anyone who has DC points. Of course, it will be at the DC points value assigned by MVC and likely much less of a value than the equivalent booking via VSN/SO. I don’t think it will be easy to book back into Vistana as the inventory for good weeks is likely going to be somewhat limited - at least initially.


----------



## byeloe

Mowogo said:


> Because you will be able to book the Vistana inventory that has been deposited into DC.


right, but that is an unknown as well.  At least you can search VSN in advance of 8 months


----------



## MICROZE

Mowogo said:


> The system is set up to handle grandfathering even when not at the minimum for the standard.  The benefits of 3* align closer to Executive so it makes sense to start there.  Also from an enrollment incentive there are enough owners at the 3 star level where the Marriott figures the minimal cost of having elites below the executive level grandfathered is a minimal cost to provide more reason for them to trade into DC initially.


We own with both Vistana + Marriott.

*For-Comparison*
To get to VSN-3* I needed a single *WLR* 2BR-EY-PLATINUM+ Unit [148100] + 10,900-SO which even if I purchased direct cost me $35-$40K.
This is an average unit in the Vistana-Network with MAUI-OF & Westin St John's being PEAK.

To get to MVC-Executive I needed to purchase 2 x 2BR-PLATINUM Weeks at Marriott Ko'Olina Island-View [4K-DCP each] to get to a little above Executive which could cost me north of $80K.
A 2BR-EY-PLATINUM MAUI-OF which is PEAK in the Marriott-Network could accrue 7K-DCP [Executive] which could cost me north of $60-$70K.

*Disparity:* The dilemma for Marriott is that Vistana assigns the same #-SO for Lagunamar as they do for WKORN [much more expensive with much higher MF].
This is why, I have noticed things mentioned like "case-by-case" basis whereby Orlando will be treated differently than Westin St. John's.

*Summary: *If Marriott is granting my VSN-3* [159000-SO] the equivalent of Executive [7K-DCP] I would consider that *[RATIO: 23 :: 1]* an awesome upgrade.


----------



## CPNY

MICROZE said:


> We own with both Vistana + Marriott.
> 
> *For-Comparison*
> To get to VSN-3* I needed a single 2BR-EY-PLATINUM+ Unit [148100] + 10,900-SO which even if I purchased direct cost me $35-$40K.
> This is an average unit in the Vistana-Network with MAUI-OF & Westin St John's being PEAK.
> 
> To get to MVC-Executive I needed to purchase 2 x 2BR-PLATINUM Weeks at Marriott Ko'Olina Island-View [4K-DCP each] to get to a little above Executive which could cost me north of $80K.
> A 2BR-EY-PLATINUM MAUI-OF which is PEAK in the Marriott-Network could accrue 7K-DCP [Executive] which could cost me north of $60-$70K.
> 
> *Disparity:* The dilemma for Marriott is that Vistana assigns the same #-SO for Lagunamar as they do for WKORN [much more expensive with much higher MF].
> This is why, I have noticed things mentioned like "case-by-case" basis whereby Orlando will be treated differently than Westin St. John's.
> 
> *Summary: *If Marriott is granting my VSN-3* the equivalent of Executive I would consider that an awesome upgrade.


It makes sense that they assign different values for vistana units. While I own in SVV, I wouldn’t expect my 2 bedroom to be equal to a WSJ two bedroom with similar SO values. I think Harborside and WSJ will be valued pretty high, same as WLR.


----------



## daviator

Eric B said:


> I don't believe the source said that unqualified Vistana mandatory ownerships would be eligible to convert to MVC DPs.  I believe that what the source said was that they would not be eligible, but also said that ownerships for which someone pays a VSN fee would be eligible to convert - this is somewhat contradictory.  There was also some discussion of increased VSN fees that would cover a number of things that may or may not include having the ability to convert to MVC DPs.  In the end, I don't have the impression that the source had a great understanding of what was being asked so I'm waiting to see what comes out in writing in an official announcement.  I've always preferred to be able to refer to the terms and conditions directly rather than what someone in sales thinks they say and I don't believe that sales actually has them yet.


I think the source corrected himself and said that anybody that was eligible to trade for Bonvoy points would be eligible to convert for DPs.  I believe it’s likely that unqualified resale owners of mandatory weeks will be out of luck based on this statement.


----------



## divenski

> I believe it’s likely that unqualified resale owners of mandatory weeks will be out of luck based on this statement.



I tend to agree, but Marriott did a hard cutoff back in 2010 too, and then opened up options for enrolling resale weeks at a later date. However, I don't remember how long it took after 2010, and it now takes a fair amount of money to do that.


----------



## CPNY

divenski said:


> I tend to agree, but Marriott did a hard cutoff back in 2010 too, and then opened up options for enrolling resale weeks at a later date. However, I don't remember how long it took after 2010, and it now takes a fair amount of money to do that.


Different situation back then. They needed inventory in the DC Exchange. Both systems are mature and there are plenty of developer and enrolled vistana owners to elect to enter the DC exchange. They will want unenrolled to buy DC points in order to be in the system. While the informant said the won’t allow retro sales deals once it’s rolled out, I don’t believe it. They won’t turn down good money from owners. Of course they may slow down the retro deals or increase the amount it would take to retro.


----------



## dioxide45

byeloe said:


> This statement is confusing.   How can you still book vistana if you convert?


Conversion, really called electing Club Points is an annual decision. You don't have to take Club Points ever year if you don't want to. You can use your home resort or StarOptions or take Club Points.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> Conversion, really called electing Club Points is an annual decision. You don't have to take Club Points ever year if you don't want to. You can use your home resort or StarOptions or take Club Points.


I think the informant or sales rep whoever was the one who said it, was eluding to the fact that even if you do convert you can still book Vistana properties within the DC Exchange, so there is no loss in converting. But what we don’t know is what the “skim” will look like.


----------



## divenski

CPNY said:


> I think the informant or sales rep whoever was the one who said it, was eluding to the fact that even if you do convert you can still book Vistana properties within the DC Exchange, so there is no loss in converting. But what we don’t know is what the “skim” will look like.



Have to assume it will be similar to MVC which can be 10-15% for peak season weeks, but it varies. There were numerous posts about the skim when the DC and points were first announced.


----------



## bizaro86

CPNY said:


> I think the informant or sales rep whoever was the one who said it, was eluding to the fact that even if you do convert you can still book Vistana properties within the DC Exchange, so there is no loss in converting. But what we don’t know is what the “skim” will look like.



Yeah, the no loss in converting since you can still book Vistana through the DC is very salesy. 

There will be plenty of examples where someone would have enough staroptions to book something but won't be able to if they convert to DC points.


----------



## pchung6

Currently I can use 81k So from my 2br SVV to book 1br WKORVN. In the new world, do you think we can use 81k pts to book Marriott Maui 1br or MKO 1br or any similar resort? Does MGV 2br currently offer enough pts to book 1br Hawaii? Any Marriott experts can help us to clarify? Thanks.


----------



## MICROZE

CPNY said:


> Different situation back then. They needed inventory in the DC Exchange. Both systems are mature and there are plenty of developer and enrolled vistana owners to elect to enter the DC exchange. They will want unenrolled to buy DC points in order to be in the system. While the informant said the won’t allow retro sales deals once it’s rolled out, *I don’t believe it*. *They won’t turn down good money from owners*. Of course they may slow down the retro deals or increase the amount it would take to retro.


You got it.

There is no way Marriott will turn down good money.
The program is being rolled out in anticipation of raking in money by *Enrolling* Vistana-Owners [Direct-Purchase/Retro or NOT].


----------



## byeloe

dioxide45 said:


> Conversion, really called electing Club Points is an annual decision. You don't have to take Club Points ever year if you don't want to. You can use your home resort or StarOptions or take Club Points.


right.  But after you elect you can't switch back to VSN for that year.  That is why I said it's confusing.


----------



## Mowogo

bizaro86 said:


> Yeah, the no loss in converting since you can still book Vistana through the DC is very salesy.


There is huge loss, but understandable when you consider that Vistana significantly undervalued their prime weeks and overvalued other properties for VSN and one of the "features" is correcting that.


----------



## CPNY

Mowogo said:


> There is huge loss, but understandable when you consider that Vistana significantly undervalued their prime weeks and overvalued other properties for VSN and one of the "features" is correcting that.


I highly doubt that prime vistana week owners are going to be converting just to book back into other vistana resorts. They will do well in the DC.


----------



## Mowogo

CPNY said:


> I highly doubt that prime vistana week owners are going to be converting just to book back into other vistana resorts. They will do well in the DC.


Depends on the conversion rules and what somebody owns.  I can see where owners have to convert to access a Marriott for one vacation and then use remaining balance at a Vistana property.


----------



## CPNY

Mowogo said:


> Depends on the conversion rules and what somebody owns.  I can see where owners have to convert to access a Marriott for one vacation and then use remaining balance at a Vistana property.


Guess we will see when it all shakes out.


----------



## SueDonJ

pchung6 said:


> Currently I can use 81k So from my 2br SVV to book 1br WKORVN. In the new world, do you think we can use 81k pts to book Marriott Maui 1br or MKO 1br or any similar resort? Does MGV 2br currently offer enough pts to book 1br Hawaii? Any Marriott experts can help us to clarify? Thanks.


Assuming MGV = Marriott Grande Vista, a 2BR Gold exchanges for 2175 and a 2BR Platinum exchanges for 2775 Destination Club Points. The range for 1BR units at each Hawaii resort from lowest-demand date(s) and view to highest-demand date(s) and view are:
- 2,925-5,125 / Waikoloa Ocean Club
- 2,525-6,875 / Maui Ocean Club
- 2,175-4,475 / Kauai Beach Club
- 2,925-6,100 / Ko 'Olina Beach Club
(Neither Kauai Lagoons nor Waiohai have 1BR units.)

This extreme, from an Orlando to a Hawaii full week, is probably one of the best examples to use if you want to make the claim that the Destination Club is useless and a rip-off. If I had Weeks that exchanged for a low number of DC Points then I'd think twice, too, at whether it makes sense to enroll in the DC. But particular to your example, consider that many, many Marriott people successfully exchange Orlando-to-Hawaii in II and continue to do so even after enrolling in the DC, with the DC advantage being that the exchange transaction fee is waived.

* The amount of DC Points required to book intervals varies according to resort/unit size/unit view and dates of stay. If you want to get a good idea of variations or start to familiarize yourself with the DC Points Charts, TUGger @StevenTing hosts them at his website, linked here: https://vacationpointexchange.com/mdc-point-charts/.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> I highly doubt that prime vistana week owners are going to be converting just to book back into other vistana resorts. They will do well in the DC.


It might make sense for someone (think the average owner) who owns in Hawaii and is willing to travel in October. They will get more Club Points from their week than it would cost to go in October through DC. RIght now in VSN, October costs as much as July.


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> * The amount of DC Points required to book varies according to resort/unit size/unit view and dates of stay. If you want to get a good idea of variations or start to familiarize yourself with the DC Points Charts, TUGger @StevenTing hosts them at his website, linked here: https://vacationpointexchange.com/mdc-point-charts/.


One can also see how many Club Points each week elect to here; https://historical.vacationpointexchange.com/


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> It might make sense for someone (think the average owner) who owns in Hawaii and is willing to travel in October. They will get more Club Points from their week than it would cost to go in October through DC. RIght now in VSN, October costs as much as July.


Great point, the Marriott chart is more dynamic in its point values.


----------



## SueDonJ

byeloe said:


> right.  But after you elect you can't switch back to VSN for that year.  That is why I said it's confusing.


It gets less confusing if you think of the Destination Club as just another exchange company. That's essentially what it is, an overlay exchange system that allows you to continue using any of the other options you already have for using your ownership, *plus* playing in the DC Exchange Company. If it's not confusing to you to give up your Week to II for an exchange knowing that you can't pull it back for that use year, it shouldn't confuse you to do the same with the DC.

The advantages I get with the DC over II are:
- A couple of my Weeks are non-lock-off 3BRs that elect for a high number of DC Points. During the years prior to the DC every time I used II for exchanging I got only 2BRs in return. That's what I expected, knowing that very few non-lock-off 3BRs exist in the timeshare world so very few are deposited to II, but it makes II exchanges a reduction in value. In the DC exchange game I get equal value at some lower-demand resorts but even at the high-demand ones, I still get 2BRs plus a surplus to use for short stays elsewhere.
- II doesn't guarantee view. View is important to us. It might not be to somebody else and I understand that completely, but it's important to us and it's why we bought particular views. In the DC I can choose to use more points to get a specific view. Even knowing that a reservation in an "oceanside"-designated unit might land me in a low-floor unit that sees not a drop of ocean or a high-floor unit with a wide sideview ocean expanse, I know where to go to learn what the resorts layouts are and I know that landing in a back-of-the-resort "gardenview" unit can't happen if I reserve "oceanside."
- II allows full-week or split-week stays with set check-in days. The DC allows any number of days with any check-in day. Don's now retired and our schedule is wide open to pick any travel dates we want, taking advantage of lower air fares, etc ... and the DC flexibility works very well in that regard.
- We love II Getaways, have always used those much more than exchanging in II. The II corporate account that was opened when we enrolled in the DC is the exact same as individual II accounts with respect to Getaways.

You Vistana people have a ton of new information to absorb about the DC. It works for some, not for others. Keep asking your questions and making your comments, and eventually you'll learn enough to know whether it works with your particular ownership or not. Here on TUG I honestly don't know of any Marriott people who would try to make the claim that it 100% works for everyone.


----------



## bizaro86

dioxide45 said:


> It might make sense for someone (think the average owner) who owns in Hawaii and is willing to travel in October. They will get more Club Points from their week than it would cost to go in October through DC. RIght now in VSN, October costs as much as July.



Absolutely. For a Maui owner who regularly takes staroptions this will be a huge win. For a vistana villages owner who does the same maybe not so much. And there will be some people who lose big (true plat 2br SDO gets 148k SO, enough for a 2br in Maui) by converting to DC. 

Since the system isn't just a straight SO-->DC points there will be some exchanges that benefit and some that lose by definition. 

I think unfortunately for  future VSN availability it will be the top resorts (ie Maui) that benefit the most from DC conversion, so I'd expect it to most negatively affect availability there.


----------



## pchung6

SueDonJ said:


> Assuming MGV = Marriott Grande Vista, a 2BR Gold exchanges for 2175 and a 2BR Platinum exchanges for 2775 Destination Club Points. The range for 1BR units at each Hawaii resort from lowest-demand date(s) and view to highest-demand date(s) and view are:
> - 2,925-5,125 / Waikoloa Ocean Club
> - 2,525-6,875 / Maui Ocean Club
> - 2,175-4,475 / Kauai Beach Club
> - 2,925-6,100 / Ko 'Olina Beach Club


Thank you. This is very very helpful. It is in line with Denise’s Q&A, some Vistana resorts will benefit from DC conversion and some will lose value. I can see SVV, WKR, WMH, WDW are few primary resorts to lose value if owners choose to convert.


----------



## Mowogo

SueDonJ said:


> You Vistana people have a ton of new information to absorb about the DC. It works for some, not for others. Keep asking your questions and making your comments, and eventually you'll learn enough to know whether it works with your particular ownership or not. Here on TUG I honestly don't know of any Marriott people who would try to make the claim that it 100% works for everyone.


Exactly.  I've been researching and for the family holdings of Sheraton Flex at 3* Elite being grandfathered to executive I can see the benefits and get my parents traveling much wider than a Sheraton Flex ownership with 13 month priority.  


bizaro86 said:


> Absolutely. For a Maui owner who regularly takes staroptions this will be a huge win. For a vistana villages owner who does the same maybe not so much. And there will be some people who lose big (true plat 2br SDO gets 148k SO, enough for a 2br in Maui) by converting to DC.
> 
> Since the system isn't just a straight SO-->DC points there will be some exchanges that benefit and some that lose by definition.
> 
> I think unfortunately for  future VSN availability it will be the top resorts (ie Maui) that benefit the most from DC conversion, so I'd expect it to most negatively affect availability there.


VSN availability is something that I have extremely low long term hopes for.  Voluntary resales naturally bleeding the system combined with the incentives for desirable properties to exchange in DC vs VSN and the general push for owners to exchange in DC will likely take a lot of inventory out of VSN. Add in multiple layers where inventory can be manipulated to advance corporate goals is not something I'd feel comfortable with paying the upcharge on a lot of mandatory resorts right now until I see how inventory plays out, but even then acknowledging that VSN as a primary exchange is not a long term play.


----------



## CPNY

bizaro86 said:


> Absolutely. For a Maui owner who regularly takes staroptions this will be a huge win. For a vistana villages owner who does the same maybe not so much. And there will be some people who lose big (true plat 2br SDO gets 148k SO, enough for a 2br in Maui) by converting to DC.
> 
> Since the system isn't just a straight SO-->DC points there will be some exchanges that benefit and some that lose by definition.
> 
> I think unfortunately for  future VSN availability it will be the top resorts (ie Maui) that benefit the most from DC conversion, so I'd expect it to most negatively affect availability there.


Great points. While we expect Westins in Maui to convert at an excellent rate, we can’t forget about the maint fee per SO ratio. While we can expect that one 2 bedroom in Maui will get more DC points than a 2 bedroom at SVV, the Maint fee for that two bedroom at SVV is less. Converting multiple SVV units may be just as effective as converting one Westin in Maui unit.  I’m sure there will be plenty of calculations on the “best way in”. We might even see more people who are completely against developer purchases finally bite the bullet and make that minimum purchase to enroll. Would I be one of them? Maybe, maybe not.


----------



## CPNY

Mowogo said:


> Exactly.  I've been researching and for the family holdings of Sheraton Flex at 3* Elite being grandfathered to executive I can see the benefits and get my parents traveling much wider than a Sheraton Flex ownership with 13 month priority.
> 
> VSN availability is something that I have extremely low long term hopes for.  Voluntary resales naturally bleeding the system combined with the incentives for desirable properties to exchange in DC vs VSN and the general push for owners to exchange in DC will likely take a lot of inventory out of VSN. Add in multiple layers where inventory can be manipulated to advance corporate goals is not something I'd feel comfortable with paying the upcharge on a lot of mandatory resorts right now until I see how inventory plays out, but even then acknowledging that VSN as a primary exchange is not a long term play.


I think it will take a long time before the VSN is drastically dried up. Assuming Marriott just doesn’t take what they want out of it and fund the DC exchange. The “layers where inventory can be manipulated to advance corporate goals” is where most of us do not trust Marriott. I do think they VSN will have a future.


----------



## bizaro86

CPNY said:


> Great points. While we expect Westins in Maui to convert at an excellent rate, we can’t forget about the maint fee per SO ratio. While we can expect that one 2 bedroom in Maui will get more DC points than a 2 bedroom at SVV, the Maint fee for that two bedroom at SVV is less. Converting multiple SVV units may be just as effective as converting one Westin in Maui unit.  I’m sure there will be plenty of calculations on the “best way in”. We might even see more people who are completely against developer purchases finally bite the bullet and make that minimum purchase to enroll. Would I be one of them? Maybe, maybe not.



I'm not saying that Maui will be a more economical trader (it probably still makes sense to use/rent), but that for those who already own Maui DC is likely to be more attractive than SVN. By contrast, many sheraton properties will probably grt better value in SVN, and over time that is likely to bleed SVN inventory of prime weeks.


----------



## CPNY

bizaro86 said:


> I'm not saying that Maui will be a more economical trader (it probably still makes sense to use/rent), but that for those who already own Maui DC is likely to be more attractive than SVN. By contrast, many sheraton properties will probably grt better value in SVN, and over time that is likely to bleed SVN inventory of prime weeks.


Lucky for me I don’t go to Hawaii….. If the whole thing crumbles, my SVV units can do well in interval. Im remaining hopeful for the VSN. Hopeful that the VSN will be around for the next ten years with some inventory to pick from. Who knows, maybe they will want a quick money grab and allow us to enroll resale weeks for a moderate fee (highly unlikely)


----------



## byeloe

SueDonJ said:


> It gets less confusing if you think of the Destination Club as just another exchange company. That's essentially what it is, an overlay exchange system that allows you to continue using any of the other options you already have for using your ownership, *plus* playing in the DC Exchange Company. If it's not confusing to you to give up your Week to II for an exchange knowing that you can't pull it back for that use year, it shouldn't confuse you to do the same with the DC.
> 
> The advantages I get with the DC over II are:
> - A couple of my Weeks are non-lock-off 3BRs that elect for a high number of DC Points. During the years prior to the DC every time I used II for exchanging I got only 2BRs in return. That's what I expected, knowing that very few non-lock-off 3BRs exist in the timeshare world so very few are deposited to II, but it makes II exchanges a reduction in value. In the DC exchange game I get equal value at some lower-demand resorts but even at the high-demand ones, I still get 2BRs plus a surplus to use for short stays elsewhere.
> - II doesn't guarantee view. View is important to us. It might not be to somebody else and I understand that completely, but it's important to us and it's why we bought particular views. In the DC I can choose to use more points to get a specific view. Even knowing that a reservation in an "oceanside"-designated unit might land me in a low-floor unit that sees not a drop of ocean or a high-floor unit with a wide sideview ocean expanse, I know where to go to learn what the resorts layouts are and I know that landing in a back-of-the-resort "gardenview" unit can't happen if I reserve "oceanside."
> - II allows full-week or split-week stays with set check-in days. The DC allows any number of days with any check-in day. Don's now retired and our schedule is wide open to pick any travel dates we want, taking advantage of lower air fares, etc ... and the DC flexibility works very well in that regard.
> - We love II Getaways, have always used those much more than exchanging in II. The II corporate account that was opened when we enrolled in the DC is the exact same as individual II accounts with respect to Getaways.
> 
> You Vistana people have a ton of new information to absorb about the DC. It works for some, not for others. Keep asking your questions and making your comments, and eventually you'll learn enough to know whether it works with your particular ownership or not. Here on TUG I honestly don't know of any Marriott people who would try to make the claim that it 100% works for everyone.


It's only confusing in that it implies that you can get access to both DC and VSN after you elect.  When in reality the only VSN resorts you will have access to that year are ones that also elected DC


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## dioxide45

byeloe said:


> It's only confusing in that it implies that you can get access to both DC and VSN after you elect.  When in reality the only VSN resorts you will have access to that year are ones that also elected DC


Technically after you elect Club Points, you can't access both DC and VSN. You can access DC which may also include inventory from Sheraton and Westin properties. VSN inventory would be separate and unattainable. Electing Club Points is final. You can't change your mind later if you can't find something you want. You can bank and borrow as well as rent those points out a lot more easily by being able to transfer them to other DC members. So Having Club Points has other benefits.


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## SueDonJ

byeloe said:


> It's only confusing in that it implies that you can get access to both DC and VSN after you elect.  When in reality the only VSN resorts you will have access to that year are ones that also elected DC


In which case it's less confusing to think of using the Destination Club as a two-step process:
- First step is choosing whether or not to enroll your ownership in the Destination Club (and pay the annual Club Dues fee to continue that enrollment,) which confers all of the usage options that already exist with your ownership *plus* membership in the Destination Club and all that it entails.
- Once enrolled then the second step would be determining the usage option for a particular year, whether that's home resort in season, electing StarOptions, electing Bonvoy Points, exchanging via II, etc, or, the newest option of electing DC Points for exchanging via the DC Exchange Company or whatever other DC options are available.

Marriott hasn't ever fully explained their inventory machinations. Of course it would make our timeshare usage decisions easier if they did but there's no requirement that they must so we're left to dissect the little information they do give us while relying on our collective experiences. I know that there's a persistent thought that the only intervals that can be booked using DC Points are the intervals that have either been permanently conveyed by Marriott to the DC Trust or the intervals that are deposited to the DC Exchange Company by Marriott and/or DC-enrolled members. But a few months after the DC was first rolled out they put out a FAQ that included a question of where DC Exchange Company intervals originate and the answer included this:

>>_"... other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International."_<<

I also have experience with an advisor early on, before online reservations could be made, who specifically told me that the Exchange Company didn't have what I wanted _"but hold on while I check II." _

I remain convinced that inventory is manipulated among all the different buckets much more than we may think. The reason that I don't think Marriott somehow manipulates it to their advantage is because 1) the underlying governing docs of Marriott Weeks provide some protection from Marriott (the timeshare company and the hotel company) raiding the buckets for their own advantage and to the detriment of Owners, and 2) it appears to me that Marriott does not pre-select inventory for specific buckets but instead all inventory is managed such that selections for certain usage are made at the time of requests. I can't prove it, but I haven't seen any indication that Marriott is undermining Owners.


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## divenski

dioxide45 said:


> It might make sense for someone (think the average owner) who owns in Hawaii and is willing to travel in October. They will get more Club Points from their week than it would cost to go in October through DC. Right now in VSN, October costs as much as July.



This might not be always the case. One example I know well is Marriot's Waiohai. The 2-bdrm OV is worth 5075 DC points. All of summer costs about 5,800 pts, and so that's the 10-15% skim I mentioned before. You HAVE to travel in off-peak season, eg Sep/Oct, in order to just barely get a full week with 5,025 points.

But in general, I'd say that the DC adds value to owners of higher value properties and reduces trading up opportunities for lower value properties. As someone else noted, before the DC, putting a high end week into II was just about always a downgrade due to loss of view and more.

And the scary thing is that 5,800 points will cost a new purchaser about $75K with a $3,500 MF. Yikes. On paper, my Waiohai week has gone up in value! Of course, a resale week can be had for ~$15-16K.


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## KACTravels

divenski said:


> And the scary thing is that 5,800 points will cost a new purchaser about $75K with a $3,500 MF. Yikes. On paper, my Waiohai week has gone up in value! Of course, a resale week can be had for ~$15-16K.



Can resale weeks be used in the DC system? I thought Marriott didn’t “retro” resales??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VacationForever

KACTravels said:


> Can resale weeks be used in the DC system? I thought Marriott didn’t “retro” resales??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can buy trust points or Aruba/Spain weeks from MVC to retro resales.


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## SueDonJ

KACTravels said:


> Can resale weeks be used in the DC system? I thought Marriott didn’t “retro” resales??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There are exceptions to the hard purchase cut-off dates for enrolling external resales in the DC. From the  _~~ Enrolling MVCI Weeks in the DC ~~ _section on Page 1 of the FAQ linked in my signature:

_Two recurring sales incentives involve direct-purchases of either DC Trust Points or non-US-based Weeks, that allow for simultaneous enrollment of otherwise-ineligible previously-purchased Weeks. These incentives may be subject to begin-and-end dates, specific Trust Points minimum purchases and/or cut-off dates for the existing Weeks. See this ongoing thread:  __Ongoing Sales Incentive - Enrolling Post-6/20/10 Weeks [Merged]_


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## pchung6

CPNY said:


> Lucky for me I don’t go to Hawaii….. If the whole thing crumbles, my SVV units can do well in interval. Im remaining hopeful for the VSN. Hopeful that the VSN will be around for the next ten years with some inventory to pick from. Who knows, maybe they will want a quick money grab and allow us to enroll resale weeks for a moderate fee (highly unlikely)


It will hurt so much for me. I've been using 81k SVV for Westin Maui for many years. It worked so well for us in the past. Hope VSN can still maintain sufficient inventory for another 10 years and I will just throw away these SVVs after that. I'm also worried these 148k WKV or SDO or WMH platinums will be devaluated the worst. Luckily I almost pulled the trigger for Kierland last year for $15k.


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## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> It will hurt so much for me. I've been using 81k SVV for Westin Maui for many years. It worked so well for us in the past. Hope VSN can still maintain sufficient inventory for another 10 years and I will just throw away these SVVs after that. I'm also worried these 148k WKV or SDO or WMH platinums will be devaluated the worst. Luckily I almost pulled the trigger for Kierland last year for $15k.


Who knows…. Maybe all of us naysayers will be buying DC points in the future haha. I also have no idea what the value of resales will be in the future. All I know is I’m closing on another now, probably bad timing.


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## rcv82

pchung6 said:


> It will hurt so much for me. I've been using 81k SVV for Westin Maui for many years. It worked so well for us in the past. Hope VSN can still maintain sufficient inventory for another 10 years and I will just throw away these SVVs after that. I'm also worried these 148k WKV or SDO or WMH platinums will be devaluated the worst. Luckily I almost pulled the trigger for Kierland last year for $15k.



Hopefully this will hold. I agree the biggest winners here are those with high demand/high value ownerships, especially if fully qualified. Another winner here relatively speaking are those that have bought inexpensive but relatively good voluntary weeks resale and requalified them. I have done this with a couple SMV ski weeks (148100 SOs) for about $15k combined purchase and retro. They will be lower on the DC conversion but had a low buy in cost and low maintenance fees, so still a good value. (Probably about $10k lower cost than doing the same thing with WKV). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> I highly doubt that prime vistana week owners are going to be converting just to book back into other vistana resorts. They will do well in the DC.


That makes no sense to convert to DC just to book a Vistana resort that will cost you more. When you can do it directly on VSN. If you convert to DC it will be to book a Marriott resort and/ or take advantage of 13 months & 1 day booking or the 30% discount 60 days as a higher level elite. Otherwise like in my case renting out Nanea and WSJ is more lucrative.


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## bogey21

I admire all you who can figure all this out.  It makes my head spin.  My last Marriot and favorite "no brainer" was my Monarch Fixed Week...

George


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## sfcolliejr

dioxide45 said:


> I just noticed this on a Vistana.com reservation we made today with StarOptions. The email is now coming from a Marriott Vacation Club address and has the look of the Marriott Vacation Club confirmations. I went back through some old confirmations we had and as of early November, it was still coming from Vistana Signature Experiences. Has anyone else noticed this? Perhaps a sign of the integration?
> 
> New Confirmation;
> View attachment 45272
> 
> Old confirmation;
> View attachment 45273


Thank you for posting this. I have a reservation at the Westin Nanea Ocean Villas that I have rented out for two weeks. I need to check to see if I have a different reservation number from Marriott. I rented through RedWeek.


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## pchung6

Red elephant said:


> That makes no sense to convert to DC just to book a Vistana resort that will cost you more. When you can do it directly on VSN. If you convert to DC it will be to book a Marriott resort and/ or take advantage of 13 months & 1 day booking or the 30% discount 60 days as a higher level elite. Otherwise like in my case renting out Nanea and WSJ is more lucrative.


Exactly. That's exactly what I've been doing to rent out Westin Ka'anapali and Ko Olina summer weeks. I use SVV staroptions for my personal trip during shoulder season, that's what I'm worried about the new program might eliminate this option. The worst scenario if VSN dries up, I just switch to Interval for my personal usage. I don't see the need of DC pts so far since I really have no interest in any Marriott properties beside Ko Olina.


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## VacationForever

Red elephant said:


> That makes no sense to convert to DC just to book a Vistana resort that will cost you more. When you can do it directly on VSN. If you convert to DC it will be to book a Marriott resort and/ or take advantage of 13 months & 1 day booking or the 30% discount 60 days as a higher level elite. Otherwise like in my case renting out Nanea and WSJ is more lucrative.


Actually, it does not always cost more.  Some resorts and time period will cost you way less than booking in DC than through VSN.  It is a function of what you own, how many DC points it translates to and then what you are trying to book.  For instance, if you currently own a Hawaii week and have been using SOs to book WKV, then you are better off electing that week for DC points and use that to book WKV and have many more DC points available to book elsewhere.


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## Sicnarf

Red elephant said:


> That makes no sense to convert to DC just to book a Vistana resort that will cost you more. When you can do it directly on VSN. If you convert to DC it will be to book a Marriott resort and/ or take advantage of 13 months & 1 day booking or the 30% discount 60 days as a higher level elite. Otherwise like in my case renting out Nanea and WSJ is more lucrative.


Depending on the exchange rate, there may be VSN resort/unit that someone may want to secure 13 months out instead of 8 months.


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## Red elephant

VacationForever said:


> Actually, it does not always cost more.  Some resorts and time period will cost you way less than booking in DC than through VSN.  It is a function of what you own, how many DC points it translates to and then what you are trying to book.  For instance, if you currently own a Hawaii week and have been using SOs to book WKV, then you are better off electing that week for DC points and use that to book WKV and have many more DC points available to book elsewhere.


Yeah that makes sense if your only ownership is Hawaii and you want to go to WKV. But I would rent Hawaiii and take part of the money and rent WKV instead.


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## Red elephant

Sicnarf said:


> Depending on the exchange rate, there may be VSN resort/unit that someone may want to secure 13 months out instead of 8 months.


True


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## VacationForever

Red elephant said:


> Yeah that makes sense if your only ownership is Hawaii and you want to go to WKV. But I would rent Hawaiii and take part of the money and rent WKV instead.


Hawaii ownership is an extreme example which I used.  With DC points you can come up ahead from value perspective at many resorts and when you travel.  There are a few Hilton Head resorts, not the 3 main ocean/beach resorts where you can stay for peanuts... 950 DC points for a week.  We travelled in September and booked a week in a 2BR in a prime location (Harbour Town) for something like 1450 DC points.


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## kozykritter

SueDonJ said:


> In which case it's less confusing to think of using the Destination Club as a two-step process:
> - First step is choosing whether or not to enroll your ownership in the Destination Club (and pay the annual Club Dues fee to continue that enrollment,) which confers all of the usage options that already exist with your ownership *plus* membership in the Destination Club and all that it entails.
> - Once enrolled then the second step would be determining the usage option for a particular year, whether that's home resort in season, electing StarOptions, electing Bonvoy Points, exchanging via II, etc, or, the newest option of electing DC Points for exchanging via the DC Exchange Company or whatever other DC options are available.
> 
> Marriott hasn't ever fully explained their inventory machinations. Of course it would make our timeshare usage decisions easier if they did but there's no requirement that they must so we're left to dissect the little information they do give us while relying on our collective experiences. I know that there's a persistent thought that the only intervals that can be booked using DC Points are the intervals that have either been permanently conveyed by Marriott to the DC Trust or the intervals that are deposited to the DC Exchange Company by Marriott and/or DC-enrolled members. But a few months after the DC was first rolled out they put out a FAQ that included a question of where DC Exchange Company intervals originate and the answer included this:
> 
> >>_"... other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International."_<<
> 
> I also have experience with an advisor early on, before online reservations could be made, who specifically told me that the Exchange Company didn't have what I wanted _"but hold on while I check II." _
> 
> I remain convinced that inventory is manipulated among all the different buckets much more than we may think. The reason that I don't think Marriott somehow manipulates it to their advantage is because 1) the underlying governing docs of Marriott Weeks provide some protection from Marriott (the timeshare company and the hotel company) raiding the buckets for their own advantage and to the detriment of Owners, and 2) it appears to me that Marriott does not pre-select inventory for specific buckets but instead all inventory is managed such that selections for certain usage are made at the time of requests. I can't prove it, but I haven't seen any indication that Marriott is undermining Owners.


It seems unlikely to me that Vistana owners would need to pay Club Dues if they enroll their ownership in DC a particular year since all Vistana ownership that would be eligible to do so (according to Denise's contact) are ones that already pay the VSN membership fee. The contact said Vistana membership fees are being raised to MVC levels and transaction fees changed to match MVC's model while Vistana elite members are being given corresponding MVC elite levels. Everything is being set up to encourage easy and instant participation in the DC once a Vistana owner elects for a use year. Telling them to pay double the membership/club dues to participate would have a definite chilling effect on anyone electing DC, and not asking MVC owners do so the same to access Vistana properties could lead to Vistana owners wielding pitchforks and torches as they chase MVC executives around !


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## jabberwocky

I just finished our owner's update here at SDO.  Very low-key and low-pressure.  The salesperson said he couldn't really improve on what we already owned.  I've found him to be an honest guy and this is our second time having a presentation with him.

Some interesting points to add:

- The Vistana to DC conversion tool was deployed last night (this is probably what the maintenance notice was about).  He said today was the first day they could actually use it to see what the conversion values will be for different ownerships.  Owners will be able to see the same thing when the system goes live this summer to convert.

- After I asked about what our portfolio would convert to, he went and got a printout of our portfolio that included all of the exact conversion values.  (I wasn't able to get a picture of this as he didn't leave us alone after this - but I have no reason to doubt it is authentic given it was prepared upon request and took about 10 minutes and all the information on our ownerships lined up)

- As I suspected and was confirmed in the other thread conversion values for deeded weeks are based on the actual week, not the number of SO it converts to.

- Our WFlex ownership converts at 28.86:1 (WFlex to DC).  This is lower than was reported in the other thread from Denise, so I'm not sure why there is a discrepancy.

- Our WKORVN OF week is worth 8325 points.  This is close to what @dioxide45 had guessed they would be worth.  Orlando for us isn't great (2625) and our SDO Plat is worth around  (can't recall the exact number).

- There does appear to be some significant skim.  WKORVN OF will take between 8200 and 11475 to book in DC (probably averaging about 9500 just glancing at the chart values - see picture below).

- Since we are 3* we will be given Executive level in MVC with plat for life (already reported).  Our overall portfolio is worth over 9k annualized points based on the actual weeks plus the WFlex.  He did say we could buy more WFlex if we wanted to go up a level in DC (this was really the only sale he tried to make).

- I asked if mandatory resale units would convert even if they were not retroed, and he said "yes".  The printout he showed us had it listed with the points value along with the value of our account.  He said it wasn't worth doing a retro on it since it would be in the system and eligible to convert.  He did say pricing would be going up to match MVC in the summer and would be DC points only.

- No clarity on the VSN fee situation.  He said it would go up to take into account the new features, but couldn't say by how much or if all other fees would be waived.

I have to head to the pool...will try to post some additional points charts pics I snapped while he was away getting our conversion sheet.

[edited to correct SDO value - from memory though]


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## pacman777

jabberwocky said:


> - I asked if mandatory resale units would convert even if they were not retroed, and he said "yes".  The printout he showed us had it listed with the points value along with the value of our account.  He said it wasn't worth doing a retro on it since it would be in the system and eligible to convert.  He did say pricing would be going up to match MVC in the summer and would be DC points only.



Wow! This is a surprise if true and interesting a salesperson will even confirm this as it’s definitely not to their benefit. Mandatory resort resale values will definitely increase and get snatched up if this is indeed true.


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## VacationForever

... it is contrary to Denise's contact's response.


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## Eric B

VacationForever said:


> ... it is contrary to Denise's contact's response.



... but consistent with her contact's statement that eligibility is associated with paying a VSN fee....


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## VacationForever

Eric B said:


> ... but consistent with her contact's statement that eligibility is associated with paying a VSN fee....


... inconsistent with "resale" cannot convert.


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## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> It seems unlikely to me that Vistana owners would need to pay Club Dues if they enroll their ownership in DC a particular year since all Vistana ownership that would be eligible to do so (according to Denise's contact) are ones that already pay the VSN membership fee. The contact said Vistana membership fees are being raised to MVC levels and transaction fees changed to match MVC's model while Vistana elite members are being given corresponding MVC elite levels. Everything is being set up to encourage easy and instant participation in the DC once a Vistana owner elects for a use year. Telling them to pay double the membership/club dues to participate would have a definite chilling effect on anyone electing DC, and not asking MVC owners do so the same to access Vistana properties could lead to Vistana owners wielding pitchforks and torches as they chase MVC executives around !


What I suspect will happen is you have to make a concerted decision to participate in the program overall. THat means to enroll your week in the DC program. This is a one time event. Then you will start to be charged the higher DC Club Fee (this starts out at $215 per year). That fee will then include and cover all other fees an owner might pay; VSN fee, SO Banking Fee, SO cancellation fees, II exchange fees. I don't expect one to pay both the DC Club Fee AND the VSN fee.


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## catharsis

CPNY said:


> Great points. While we expect Westins in Maui to convert at an excellent rate, we can’t forget about the maint fee per SO ratio. While we can expect that one 2 bedroom in Maui will get more DC points than a 2 bedroom at SVV, the Maint fee for that two bedroom at SVV is less.



The concept of 'MF per DC Point' is being missed in many of the discussions here.    For many existing Vistana owners, they get (relatively) poor value when exchanging using SVN as their high-annual-MF weeks is worth the same 148,100 as another resort with much lower MFs.   Based upon the post #654 above, the DC conversion will assign different DC Points values to weeks and will ignore SO values entirely.    This will likely result in a situation where owners are happy to be getting better 'value' exchanges.    This will also interestingly quickly be identified by Vistana owners as being a much cheaper annual ownership offering of DC points than purchasing from MVW.   Based upon the figures I've seen the MF/Point annual costs for the flex offerings are much less than Marriott's for DC points (0.62 or thereabouts).   I think the new offering is likely to be a big 'plus' for Vistana owners, not for all of them of course, but I think the doomsayers are likely misguided (having been a Marriott doomsayer back in 2010 myself and now seeing what is happening to my Vistana ownership.

For those who own a fixed week, rent it out every year and get great returns, nothing that MVW can do will change your business model and best option, but for many, this will add a very useful option, and I honestly think the valuations _(once you add the relatively much lower MFs at Vistana than Marriott_) look like being a great deal for Vistana owners.


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## dioxide45

pacman777 said:


> Wow! This is a surprise if true and interesting a salesperson will even confirm this as it’s definitely not to their benefit. Mandatory resort resale values will definitely increase and get snatched up if this is indeed true.


We will have to see how it plays out. There seems to perhaps be some interpretation to the instruction they have been given and until we actually see more written details from Marriott in official communication and ability to actually convert to Club Points, we don't really know how it will ultimately work.


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## CalGalTraveler

dioxide45 said:


> It might make sense for someone (think the average owner) who owns in Hawaii and is willing to travel in October. They will get more Club Points from their week than it would cost to go in October through DC. RIght now in VSN, October costs as much as July.



Good point. But will Hawaii SO to DC exchange be better than locking a 2 bedroom and getting 2 full weeks - one which can be banked and traded the following year into almost any other Vistana with SOs? We have 176,000 Staroptions for our WKORVN.

Can MVC owners deposit half of a lockoff into DC and use the other half?


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## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> - Our WKORVN OF week is worth 8325 points. This is close to what @dioxide45 had guessed they would be worth. Orlando for us isn't great (2625) and our SDO Plat is worth around 4600 (can't recall the exact number).


This seems to indicate that they would line up SDO in a similar Club Point value as WKV. I always thought it was odd that SDO had the same point values and chart as WKV. WKV is far superior and SDO is even a step below Canyon Villas. SDO does have going for it the two 1BR units vs Canyon Villas having a studio+1BR, but still... IMO SDO isn't up to the same level as the other two resorts in the area. This could have been their chance to better align SDO in regard to WKV. From what I understand SDO doesn't even rent for as much as WKV?


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## SueDonJ

CalGalTraveler said:


> Good point. But will Hawaii SO to DC exchange be better than locking a 2 bedroom and getting 2 full weeks - one which can be banked and traded the following year into almost any other Vistana with SOs? We have 176,000 Staroptions for our WKORVN.
> 
> Can MVC owners deposit half of a lockoff into DC and use the other half?



No. The DC Points value of a lock-off Week is one single value for the entire unit. You can't elect separate DC Points values for each separate component, and you can't use the two separate components in the two separate systems.


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## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> What I suspect will happen is you have to make a concerted decision to participate in the program overall. THat means to enroll your week in the DC program. This is a one time event. Then you will start to be charged the higher DC Club Fee (this starts out at $215 per year). That fee will then include and cover all other fees an owner might pay; VSN fee, SO Banking Fee, SO cancellation fees, II exchange fees. I don't expect one to pay both the DC Club Fee AND the VSN fee.



Yes, this is what I was trying to get at, that there's an annual fee associated with the Destination Club enrollment that must be paid to continue participation in the program. With Marriott ownerships it's a Club Dues fee over and above the MF's of owned Week(s) and/or purchased Trust Points. With Vistana it sounds like it will continue to be charged as the annual VSN fee, but raised so that there's a differential between owners who choose to enroll for DC membership and those that don't?


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## dsmrp

dioxide45 said:


> What I suspect will happen is you have to make a concerted decision to participate in the program overall. THat means to enroll your week in the DC program. This is a one time event. Then you will start to be charged the higher DC Club Fee (this starts out at $215 per year). That fee will then include and cover all other fees an owner might pay; VSN fee, SO Banking Fee, SO cancellation fees, II exchange fees. I don't expect one to pay both the DC Club Fee AND the VSN fee.



I agree I wouldn't expect to pay both DC Club and VSN fees, altho' I was afraid that might be a possibility and overlap for this year. 
I'm sure there are many others like me who have banked SO's they need to use up. Unfortunately I have too many SOs to bank as well.

The current VSN fee is $215 (for 2 or more VOIs), so comparable to DC Select owner level.  So paying more for club fees sounds reasonable & inevitable, as long as the benefits are useful.


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## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> This seems to indicate that they would line up SDO in a similar Club Point value as WKV. I always thought it was odd that SDO had the same point values and chart as WKV. WKV is far superior and SDO is even a step below Canyon Villas. SDO does have going for it the two 1BR units vs Canyon Villas having a studio+1BR, but still... IMO SDO isn't up to the same level as the other two resorts in the area. This could have been their chance to better align SDO in regard to WKV. From what I understand SDO doesn't even rent for as much as WKV?


Sorry. This is a typo on my part. I think I meant to type 2600. Based on the charts, it will be much cheaper to book a 2BR at SDO vs WKV.

Looking at it more closely, I think they may also be basing in on the actual deeded week in some cases. To me the SVR should not be about the same as the SDO plat; but our SVR is a fixed Christmas week, so perhaps it gets a premium?


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## daviator

jabberwocky said:


> I just finished our owner's update here at SDO.  Very low-key and low-pressure.  The salesperson said he couldn't really improve on what we already owned.  I've found him to be an honest guy and this is our second time having a presentation with him.
> 
> Some interesting points to add:
> 
> - The Vistana to DC conversion tool was deployed last night (this is probably what the maintenance notice was about).  He said today was the first day they could actually use it to see what the conversion values will be for different ownerships.  Owners will be able to see the same thing when the system goes live this summer to convert.
> 
> - After I asked about what our portfolio would convert to, he went and got a printout of our portfolio that included all of the exact conversion values.  (I wasn't able to get a picture of this as he didn't leave us alone after this - but I have no reason to doubt it is authentic given it was prepared upon request and took about 10 minutes and all the information on our ownerships lined up)
> 
> - As I suspected and was confirmed in the other thread conversion values for deeded weeks are based on the actual week, not the number of SO it converts to.
> 
> - Our WFlex ownership converts at 28.86:1 (WFlex to DC).  This is lower than was reported in the other thread from Denise, so I'm not sure why there is a discrepancy.
> 
> - Our WKORVN OF week is worth 8325 points.  This is close to what @dioxide45 had guessed they would be worth.  Orlando for us isn't great (2625) and our SDO Plat is worth around 4600 (can't recall the exact number).
> 
> - There does appear to be some significant skim.  WKORVN OF will take between 8200 and 11475 to book in DC (probably averaging about 9500 just glancing at the chart values - see picture below).
> 
> - Since we are 3* we will be given Executive level in MVC with plat for life (already reported).  Our overall portfolio is worth over 9k annualized points based on the actual weeks plus the WFlex.  He did say we could buy more WFlex if we wanted to go up a level in DC (this was really the only sale he tried to make).
> 
> - I asked if mandatory resale units would convert even if they were not retroed, and he said "yes".  The printout he showed us had it listed with the points value along with the value of our account.  He said it wasn't worth doing a retro on it since it would be in the system and eligible to convert.  He did say pricing would be going up to match MVC in the summer and would be DC points only.
> 
> - No clarity on the VSN fee situation.  He said it would go up to take into account the new features, but couldn't say by how much or if all other fees would be waived.
> 
> I have to head to the pool...will try to post some additional points charts pics I snapped while he was away getting our conversion sheet.
> 
> View attachment 50383


The chart shown really shows the disparity in values between DP and VSN.  For example, the 81,000 WF that I own can be used to reserve a 1BR at WKORV/N at any time of the year, except for the two event weeks there.  But converted to DP (2808 points) you could not reserve a 1BR at WKORV or WKORVN even at the slowest times of the year and even in a parking lot-view room.  Obviously it will continue to be better to use the legacy systems to trade within the Vistana resorts in most cases.

But I can imagine occasionally using those WF points to trade into DP if I wanted to travel someplace where DP had options that didn’t exist in VSN. Most DP resorts are a lot cheaper (less points required) than Maui.

There is an irony here.  For years, Vistana sold people on the idea of buying the most SOs at the least cost (both purchase cost and MFs) which is how I ended up first buying into WDW… I already owned at WKORV with its high MFs, they convinced me that WDW was much more bang for the buck.  Now the chickens have come home to roost and the lower-MF resorts will (mostly) have lower trading power in DC.

But in my case, it turned out that we like going to WDW and end up going for three weeks most years, so it doesn’t really matter to me if my ownership there won’t convert well to DP, because I’m unlikely to elect to do so.

Will there be some sort of deadline on enrolling in DP?  Or will the VSN fee go up too?  My inclination would be to not enroll until/unless I actually want to exchange info DP, so maybe years from now.  Why pay the higher fee?  And if you don’t enroll, do the existing deadlines for banking and electing Bonvoy conversion stay the same, or do they change?  What about the waived fees for elite owners?  I’m 4* Elite and I think the DP deadlines are less generous than what I already enjoy.


----------



## jabberwocky

pacman777 said:


> Wow! This is a surprise if true and interesting a salesperson will even confirm this as it’s definitely not to their benefit. Mandatory resort resale values will definitely increase and get snatched up if this is indeed true.


I was expecting a hard sell on why we needed to bring our mandatory resale in so that it would convert. So this surprised me.

Perhaps they will grandfather resales in VSN that are owned at the time the system is launched?  This would be similar to what they did on the Marriott side when the DC launched.  Perhaps new resale mandatory won’t be eligible. Given what Denise’s contact has said, there was some ambiguity on this point for weeks that are in VSN.


----------



## VacationForever

Because there is not a direct correlation of SOs to DC points, I believe that for many of us, whether we elect DC points or not, it depends on how we use our ownership. For instance, for what we own we won't get many DC points, we will continue to use SOs to go to other resorts in VSN in the shoulder season.


----------



## jabberwocky

Here is the points chart for Lagunamar.


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## jabberwocky

And one for SVR.  They seem to have lined it up pretty closely to the values for Grande Vista.  I know there was some speculation as to how the Orlando resort points values would compare to MVC.


----------



## wjarcher

jabberwocky said:


> I just finished our owner's update here at SDO. Very low-key and low-pressure. The salesperson said he couldn't really improve on what we already owned. I've found him to be an honest guy and this is our second time having a presentation with him.
> 
> Some interesting points to add:
> 
> - The Vistana to DC conversion tool was deployed last night (this is probably what the maintenance notice was about). He said today was the first day they could actually use it to see what the conversion values will be for different ownerships. Owners will be able to see the same thing when the system goes live this summer to convert.
> 
> - After I asked about what our portfolio would convert to, he went and got a printout of our portfolio that included all of the exact conversion values. (I wasn't able to get a picture of this as he didn't leave us alone after this - but I have no reason to doubt it is authentic given it was prepared upon request and took about 10 minutes and all the information on our ownerships lined up)
> 
> - As I suspected and was confirmed in the other thread conversion values for deeded weeks are based on the actual week, not the number of SO it converts to.
> 
> - Our WFlex ownership converts at 28.86:1 (WFlex to DC). This is lower than was reported in the other thread from Denise, so I'm not sure why there is a discrepancy.
> 
> - Our WKORVN OF week is worth 8325 points. This is close to what @dioxide45 had guessed they would be worth. Orlando for us isn't great (2625) and our SDO Plat is worth around (can't recall the exact number).
> 
> - There does appear to be some significant skim. WKORVN OF will take between 8200 and 11475 to book in DC (probably averaging about 9500 just glancing at the chart values - see picture below).
> 
> - Since we are 3* we will be given Executive level in MVC with plat for life (already reported). Our overall portfolio is worth over 9k annualized points based on the actual weeks plus the WFlex. He did say we could buy more WFlex if we wanted to go up a level in DC (this was really the only sale he tried to make).
> 
> - I asked if mandatory resale units would convert even if they were not retroed, and he said "yes". The printout he showed us had it listed with the points value along with the value of our account. He said it wasn't worth doing a retro on it since it would be in the system and eligible to convert. He did say pricing would be going up to match MVC in the summer and would be DC points only.
> 
> - No clarity on the VSN fee situation. He said it would go up to take into account the new features, but couldn't say by how much or if all other fees would be waived.
> 
> I have to head to the pool...will try to post some additional points charts pics I snapped while he was away getting our conversion sheet.
> 
> [edited to correct SDO value - from memory though]
> 
> View attachment 50383


From the points chart, the island view has the same points as the ocean view. Not sure if they will change it later. 

Based on the charts, island view might get over 7k points, which will be a great points generator compared with any other Marriott resorts.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## wjarcher

jabberwocky said:


> Here is the points chart for Lagunamar. View attachment 50392


Thanks for sharing, it will definitely boost up the lagunamar resale price.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Sorry. This is a typo on my part. I think I meant to type 2600. Based on the charts, it will be much cheaper to book a 2BR at SDO vs WKV.
> 
> Looking at it more closely, I think they may also be basing in on the actual deeded week in some cases. To me the SVR should not be about the same as the SDO plat; but our SVR is a fixed Christmas week, so perhaps it gets a premium?
> View attachment 50389View attachment 50390


These charts are how much it is to book a week, not necessarily how much you get when you elect Club Points for your week. I don't really know how they will handle SDO where they have seasons but some people own a 1-52 and others own a Gold+ or Plat+. I suspect they will set a number of points for Gold+ and then Plat+. This is where skim comes in. You only get 2,600 Club Points, but it may cost more or less to book depending on when you want to travel. Want to go during that more expensive time? Use your home resort reservation, want to go during cheaper times? Use Club Points.


----------



## jabberwocky

wjarcher said:


> From the points chart, the island view has the same points as the ocean view. Not sure if they will change it later.
> 
> Based on the charts, island view might get over 7k points, which will be a great points generator compared with any other Marriott resorts.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


Maybe this is one of their “tweaks” they will be working on or it could be an artifact of requiring the same SO for the same view.

The other thing I found weird in this chart is that OF is in the middle column of each room size, rather than at the far right as it is in other MVC points charts. Perhaps this is done so you don’t notice that IV and OV are the same.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Maybe this is one of their “tweaks” they will be working on or it could be an artifact of requiring the same SO for the same view.
> 
> The other thing I found weird in this chart is that OF is in the middle column of each room size, rather than at the far right as it is in other MVC points charts. Perhaps this is done so you don’t notice that IV and OV are the same.


Perhaps this is an aberration of converting from StarOption value to Club Points instead of converting from an actual value of the underlying week? There were a few Marriott resorts where Marriott valued Ocean Side as the same cost as Ocean View. I beleive Aruba Surf Club had this.


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## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> These charts are how much it is to book a week, not necessarily how much you get when you elect Club Points for your week. I don't really know how they will handle SDO where they have seasons but some people own a 1-52 and others own a Gold+ or Plat+. I suspect they will set a number of points for Gold+ and then Plat+. This is where skim comes in. You only get 2,600 Club Points, but it may cost more or less to book depending on when you want to travel. Want to go during that more expensive time? Use your home resort reservation, want to go during cheaper times? Use Club Points.


Those too are my thoughts.  What we get assigned for our week is different from what we need to book, hence the "skim".


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## CPNY

Red elephant said:


> That makes no sense to convert to DC just to book a Vistana resort that will cost you more. When you can do it directly on VSN. If you convert to DC it will be to book a Marriott resort and/ or take advantage of 13 months & 1 day booking or the 30% discount 60 days as a higher level elite. Otherwise like in my case renting out Nanea and WSJ is more lucrative.


Agree, that’s what I said. While the extra time may be a benefit, there will be skim to contend with


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## byeloe

wjarcher said:


> Thanks for sharing, it will definitely boost up the lagunamar resale price.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


maybe, but Lagunamar resale is voluntary so won't be in VSN  or be eligible for DC


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## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Here is the points chart for Lagunamar. View attachment 50392


This is where I really think they are missing the mark on conversion rates and cost to book. Oceanside and Ocean View should clearly have different point values to both book and to elect Club Points. They did this across the Marriott resorts when they rolled out DC in 2010. It will really dissuade those Oceanside owners from converting just for the fact they didn't give them more points than ocean view.


----------



## dioxide45

byeloe said:


> maybe, but Lagunamar resale is voluntary so won't be in VSN  or be eligible for DC


I am not really sure you will see any changes in resale values one way or another. What a resale week can do today is the same as it will be able to do after June 2022. Now, Lagunamar may be a good resort to retro in if Marriott does allow that down the road, but it is already a fairly good resort to retro.


----------



## dioxide45

Red elephant said:


> That makes no sense to convert to DC just to book a Vistana resort that will cost you more. When you can do it directly on VSN. If you convert to DC it will be to book a Marriott resort and/ or take advantage of 13 months & 1 day booking or the 30% discount 60 days as a higher level elite. Otherwise like in my case renting out Nanea and WSJ is more lucrative.


I think the goal here is to make it less attractive to elect Club Points to book either back into your home resort or even back into Sheraton or Westin properties. The primary purpose of electing points will be to book into Marriott properties. If you want to stay at a Vistana property, just stick with VSN.


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> I think the goal here is to make it less attractive to elect Club Points to book either back into your home resort or even back into Sheraton or Westin properties. The primary purpose of electing points will be to book into Marriott properties. If you want to stay at a Vistana property, just stick with VSN.


I have a feeling that we will not elect Club points because we get much better value when using SOs to book at the 2 resorts which we visit regularly.  We also have more DC / Trust points than we can use.


----------



## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> I have a feeling that we will not elect Club points because we get much better value when using SOs to book at the 2 resorts which we visit regularly.  We also have more DC / Trust points than we can use.


That’s my issue. I have 1-2 resorts in the VSN that I really like. If I can book in the DC I would probably look for the Florida resorts. Really it’s just beachplace and crystal shores since for the orlando properties, interval is probably better. If they didn’t allow mandatory owners to convert and I had to pay a fee similar to what they charged in 2010, I probably would.


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## alexadeparis

I went to a presentation today and was able to take a photo of my sheet showing the MVC DC point values assigned. As you can see, they know exactly what is voluntary, mandatory, retroed, and not. Confirmed that they do NOT know when or if HRA will be brought in, or Riverfront.  According to my rep this is because both are owned by other companies and only managed by Vistana, but they are working on both. Tried to get me to purchase an eoy Westin flex package to bring in my unauthorized SVV and hope that when HRA comes online i can make it to Chairman before they raise the points levels. Hard pass.
We here on tug know everything the reps know, other than what our individual units will earn in MVC. They couldn't outright deny that there may be a future opportunity to enroll these a ala the June 2010 cutoff for Marriott, so i will just wait and see.


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## lily28

alexadeparis
did your sale rep mentions whether unauthorized mandatory resorts are eligible to convert?


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## MICROZE

alexadeparis said:


> I went to a presentation today and was able to take a photo of my sheet showing the MVC DC point values assigned. As you can see, they know exactly what is voluntary, mandatory, retroed, and not. Confirmed that they do NOT know when or if HRA will be brought in, or Riverfront.  According to my rep this is because both are owned by other companies and only managed by Vistana, but they are working on both. Tried to get me to purchase an eoy Westin flex package to bring in my unauthorized SVV and hope that when HRA comes online i can make it to Chairman before they raise the points levels. Hard pass.
> We here on tug know everything the reps know, other than what our individual units will earn in MVC. They couldn't outright deny that there may be a future opportunity to enroll these a ala the June 2010 cutoff for Marriott, so i will just wait and see.


Thanks for sharing the details.
Helps us with context.

Is the 81K-SO highlighted as UN-AUTHORIZED MANDATORY the SVV you refer to?
If the SVV is Mandatory and they offered to bring it in with a purchase can we infer that *"Enrolling MANDATORY-UNAUTHORIZED"* is possible and will require a purchase of some sort?

Why does one of your weeks 148.1K-PLATINUM show as ZERO "Election Value" even though it shows as AUTHORIZED.?


----------



## jabberwocky

alexadeparis said:


> I went to a presentation today and was able to take a photo of my sheet showing the MVC DC point values assigned. As you can see, they know exactly what is voluntary, mandatory, retroed, and not. Confirmed that they do NOT know when or if HRA will be brought in, or Riverfront.  According to my rep this is because both are owned by other companies and only managed by Vistana, but they are working on both. Tried to get me to purchase an eoy Westin flex package to bring in my unauthorized SVV and hope that when HRA comes online i can make it to Chairman before they raise the points levels. Hard pass.
> We here on tug know everything the reps know, other than what our individual units will earn in MVC. They couldn't outright deny that there may be a future opportunity to enroll these a ala the June 2010 cutoff for Marriott, so i will just wait and see.


This is similar to what we were shown today. I’m curious as to why the “Un-“ in the resale type column is whited out on lines 1, 2, 5 and 6 of your sheet?  

Is line 4 the only one that you bought from the developer?

Line 5 I assume is the one that is HRA?


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## VacationForever

MICROZE said:


> Why does one of your weeks 148.1K-PLATINUM show as ZERO "Election Value" even though it shows as AUTHORIZED.?


I think it's HRA.


----------



## jabberwocky

MICROZE said:


> Thanks for sharing the details.
> Helps us with context.
> 
> Is the 81K-SO highlighted as UN-AUTHORIZED MANDATORY the SVV you refer to?
> If the SVV is Mandatory and they offered to bring it in with a purchase can we infer that *"Enrolling MANDATORY-UNAUTHORIZED"* is possible and will require a purchase of some sort?
> 
> Why does one of your weeks 148.1K-PLATINUM show as ZERO "Election Value" even though it shows as AUTHORIZED.?


The sheet looks a little funny to me. I think lines 1, 2, 5 and 6 are actually listed as “Un-authorized”, but someone has manually tried to take the “Un-“ away from the front to make them appear to be listed as “Authorized”. If you look carefully the columns don’t align. The auditor part of my brain is tingling.


----------



## alexadeparis

lily28 said:


> alexadeparis
> did your sale rep mentions whether unauthorized mandatory resorts are eligible to convert?


They said they won’t right now, hence the push on flex. I asked directly if there would be an amnesty enrollment like Marriott and the look in their eyes seemed to indicate that it may happen down the road, but their mouth said no.


----------



## alexadeparis

jabberwocky said:


> The sheet looks a little funny to me. I think lines 1, 2, 5 and 6 are actually listed as “Un-authorized”, but someone has manually tried to take the “Un-“ away from the front to make them appear to be listed as “Authorized”. If you look carefully the columns don’t align. The auditor part of my brain is tingling.


They were all authorized last fall, except for SVV. This was printed today but as you see someone wrote all over it before I got there, but I assure you that this IS accurate for my account, I have 5 enrolled units (3 developer purchases and 2 retros) and one resale unenrolled.


----------



## alexadeparis

jabberwocky said:


> This is similar to what we were shown today. I’m curious as to why the “Un-“ in the resale type column is whited out on lines 1, 2, 5 and 6 of your sheet?
> 
> Is line 4 the only one that you bought from the developer?
> 
> Line 5 I assume is the one that is HRA?


Lines 1, 2, and 6 were developer purchases and you see they are marked “Sale”. 3, 4, and 5 were resale and yes 5 is HRA.


----------



## alexadeparis

MICROZE said:


> Thanks for sharing the details.
> Helps us with context.
> 
> Is the 81K-SO highlighted as UN-AUTHORIZED MANDATORY the SVV you refer to?
> If the SVV is Mandatory and they offered to bring it in with a purchase can we infer that *"Enrolling MANDATORY-UNAUTHORIZED"* is possible and will require a purchase of some sort?
> 
> Why does one of your weeks 148.1K-PLATINUM show as ZERO "Election Value" even though it shows as AUTHORIZED.?


Yes, SVV is my unauthorized mandatory and that’s I guess why they crossed out the MVC points.
The 148.1 is Harborside which isn’t yet part of the conversion.


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## MICROZE

alexadeparis said:


> Yes, SVV is my unauthorized mandatory and that’s I guess why they crossed out the MVC points.
> The 148.1 is Harborside which isn’t yet part of the conversion.


Thanks for clarifying.

Thus, your SVV-Mandatory cannot be enrolled [due to RESALE] without an additional purchase?


----------



## alexadeparis

MICROZE said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> Thus, your SVV-Mandatory cannot be enrolled [due to RESALE] without an additional purchase?


That’s what they told me today, but I am choosing to wait and see what ACTUALLY happens rather than buy more now based on speculation.


----------



## Nick66

I’m not familiar with the DC program as I only own Vistana. What percentage is the skim on what a week receives for DC and what it would cost to then book that same week in DC?


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## VacationForever

Nick66 said:


> I’m not familiar with the DC program as I only own Vistana. What percentage is the skim on what a week receives for DC and what it would cost to then book that same week in DC?


It varies with the resort and season.  But you never want to elect DC points to book back at your own resort.  You should simply book your week as before.  Skim isn't really all that bad as there are underlying reasons that can explain why there is skim.  One that has become obvious to many MVC DC owners is that you can book by days, so some orphaned/broken up days go unused.  The other reason is the additional housekeeping required for short stays.  However, one can argue that owners pay for housekeeping in their MF anyway.  Even though there is skim, it really has not affected my satisfaction with the DC program.


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## rcv82

It seems like we have some conflicting information as to whether a non-retro’ed mandatory will be able to convert to DC points.

If they DO allow it, it starts to make me wonder if the long-term plan is to deprecate VSN and make the DC points the only internal exchange currency. I hope not, as I like the way VSN works. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nick66

VacationForever said:


> It varies with the resort and season.  But you never want to elect DC points to book back at your own resort.  You should simply book your week as before.  Skim isn't really all that bad as there are underlying reasons that can explain why there is skim.  One that has become obvious to many MVC DC owners is that you can book by days, so some orphaned/broken up days go unused.  The other reason is the additional housekeeping required for short stays.  However, one can argue that owners pay for housekeeping in their MF anyway.  Even though there is skim, it really has not affected my satisfaction with the DC program.


Yes I understand that you wouldn’t want to do that, but as I’m piecing this together based on the pictures provided I’m trying to make an educated guess of what my weeks would get me in DC. I own SVR and if it’s based on the week on your deed, it would cost 2900 and 3450 DC points to book what I own. Would I expect to see from a DC election 85%? 90%? Of those amounts?


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## daviator

VacationForever said:


> It varies with the resort and season.  But you never want to elect DC points to book back at your own resort.  You should simply book your week as before.  Skim isn't really all that bad as there are underlying reasons that can explain why there is skim.  One that has become obvious to many MVC DC owners is that you can book by days, so some orphaned/broken up days go unused.  The other reason is the additional housekeeping required for short stays.  However, one can argue that owners pay for housekeeping in their MF anyway.  Even though there is skim, it really has not affected my satisfaction with the DC program.


How does MVC handle housekeeping charges for multiple short stays?

Vistana's policy has always been pretty simple, you get one full clean for each vacation ownership, so if you use one VO for multiple stays, you’ll pay for a clean after the first one.  Does DC work the same way?  Or do they cover their extra housekeeping costs with the “skim” as you suggest?


----------



## MICROZE

rcv82 said:


> It seems like we have some conflicting information as to whether a non-retro’ed mandatory will be able to convert to DC points.
> 
> If they DO allow it, it starts to make me wonder if the long-term plan is to deprecate VSN and make the DC points the only internal exchange currency. I hope not, as I like the way VSN works.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In Post #686 above a MANDATORY-RESALE [LINE-4] was Enrolled because it was retro'd.
In Post #686 above a MANDATORY-RESALE [LINE-3] was *NOT* Enrolled because it was *NOT* retro'd. Vistana was willing to retro it [thus Enroll] with the purchase of additional FLEX-Points.

Thus, I assume that if a MANDATORY-RESALE is retro'd it will be classified as Enrolled and thus able to convert to DC-Points.


----------



## Eric B

MICROZE said:


> In Post #686 above a MANDATORY-RESALE [LINE-4] was Enrolled because it was retro'd.
> In Post #686 above a MANDATORY-RESALE [LINE-3] was *NOT* Enrolled because it was *NOT* retro'd. Vistana was willing to retro it [thus Enroll] with the purchase of additional FLEX-Points.
> 
> Thus, I assume that if a MANDATORY-RESALE is retro'd it will be classified as Enrolled and thus able to convert to DC-Points.



If you look carefully at the picture, Line-3 appears to have had white out put over the entry in the column for enrolled, similar to the modifications noted in the other lines.  I wouldn’t rely on it either way.


----------



## alexadeparis

Eric B said:


> If you look carefully at the picture, Line-3 appears to have had white out put over the entry in the column for enrolled, similar to the modifications noted in the other lines.  I wouldn’t rely on it either way.


Yes, I saw that too, but only after taking the photo (they had the sheet backwards facing them in the presentation and I was able to snap a photo when they left) which is why I asked if there was going to be an amnesty type enrollment. I didn’t really receive a definitive answer on that, which is why I plan to wait and see.


----------



## kozykritter

daviator said:


> How does MVC handle housekeeping charges for multiple short stays?
> 
> Vistana's policy has always been pretty simple, you get one full clean for each vacation ownership, so if you use one VO for multiple stays, you’ll pay for a clean after the first one.  Does DC work the same way?  Or do they cover their extra housekeeping costs with the “skim” as you suggest?


From my understanding MVC doesn't charge any transactional fees included housekeeping, banking, cancellation or guest fees with the exception of a charge to split a lockoff unit in some instances.


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> How does MVC handle housekeeping charges for multiple short stays?
> 
> Vistana's policy has always been pretty simple, you get one full clean for each vacation ownership, so if you use one VO for multiple stays, you’ll pay for a clean after the first one.  Does DC work the same way?  Or do they cover their extra housekeeping costs with the “skim” as you suggest?


THere are no additional housekeeping fees with DC. It is all covered somehow in the skim and in the DC annual fee. The housekeeping line item of resort budgets has also gone up considerably since the introduction of DC. So we pay for it, just not at time of reservation or stay.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> From my understanding MVC doesn't charge any transactional fees included housekeeping, banking, cancellation or guest fees with the exception of a charge to split a lockoff unit.


No fee for locking off either for enrolled weeks.


----------



## CPNY

Nick66 said:


> Yes I understand that you wouldn’t want to do that, but as I’m piecing this together based on the pictures provided I’m trying to make an educated guess of what my weeks would get me in DC. I own SVR and if it’s based on the week on your deed, it would cost 2900 and 3450 DC points to book what I own. Would I expect to see from a DC election 85%? 90%? Of those amounts?


It could cost 2900 to book what you own but you may only get 2500 for electing. This conversion program will work out well for those with prime weeks at prime resorts yielding high DC values. I may have to convert 3 SVV platinum units to get around 4500 DC points. That would be enough to possibly book a week in a one bedroom at a high resort (not prime) In the DCE. In the VSN, I can combine those units and get a week in an oceanfront studio or one bedroom in Maui and still have enough left over for a week at the Harborside.

These valuations are based on the VOI portfolio alexdeparis posted. The values are purely speculation. I could be receiving more or less DC points for my ownerships.


----------



## CPNY

MICROZE said:


> In Post #686 above a MANDATORY-RESALE [LINE-4] was Enrolled because it was retro'd.
> In Post #686 above a MANDATORY-RESALE [LINE-3] was *NOT* Enrolled because it was *NOT* retro'd. Vistana was willing to retro it [thus Enroll] with the purchase of additional FLEX-Points.
> 
> Thus, I assume that if a MANDATORY-RESALE is retro'd it will be classified as Enrolled and thus able to convert to DC-Points.


@alexadeparis Did it miss something? Was the HRA unit enrolled or retro with a purchase or just the WSJ? The HRA was written as a resale in pen, but it also shows VSE ENROLLED.


----------



## lily28

alexadepris
how many flex points or total $$ spend did vistana requires to retro your svv resale?


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> What I suspect will happen is you have to make a concerted decision to participate in the program overall. THat means to enroll your week in the DC program. This is a one time event. Then you will start to be charged the higher DC Club Fee (this starts out at $215 per year). That fee will then include and cover all other fees an owner might pay; VSN fee, SO Banking Fee, SO cancellation fees, II exchange fees. I don't expect one to pay both the DC Club Fee AND the VSN fee.


Makes sense. Once you are enrolled (in my case Flex not weeks) and paying the DC club fee every year, can you rent DC points even if you don't convert any of your VSE ownership that year? Renting points is my personal goal in this cross-linking so I can expand my ownership into MVC on an as-needed basis without using up existing VSE options or buying DC points.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> Makes sense. Once you are enrolled (in my case Flex not weeks) and paying the DC club fee every year, can you rent DC points even if you don't convert any of your VSE ownership that year? Renting points is my personal goal in this cross-linking so I can expand my ownership into MVC on an as-needed basis without using up existing VSE options or buying DC points.


If it works like Marriott enrolled weeks, yes you can rent Club Points even if you don't elect Club Points in a given year.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

dioxide45 said:


> I think the goal here is to make it less attractive to elect Club Points to book either back into your home resort or even back into Sheraton or Westin properties. The primary purpose of electing points will be to book into Marriott properties. If you want to stay at a Vistana property, just stick with VSN.



This nails it. We already have several TS weeks, so our want for occasional MVC doesn't justify $15 - $20k plus $1800 annual MF for the flexibility. So we will likely pass with our WKORV OF Unless they offer this for low cost to mandatory resale.

It will take a very long time to see an effect on Vistana inventory no matter how much fear the reps portray.


----------



## KACTravels

Is it cost effective to rent DC points?


----------



## dioxide45

KACTravels said:


> Is it cost effective to rent DC points?


They generally rent for just a little more than the maintenance fees on Trust points. You can check out www.vacationpointexchange.com to see what people are asking.

We do some last minute rentals and have found it better to rent from a Presidential or Chairman's Club owner and have them make the reservation for me in order to get the discounts on the number of points needed. In that case, you don't even need to be a DC member or even an owner at all.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> They generally rent for just a little more than the maintenance fees on Trust points. You can check out www.vacationpointexchange.com to see what people are asking.
> 
> We do some last minute rentals and have found it better to rent from a Presidential or Chairman's Club owner and have them make the reservation for me in order to get the discounts on the number of points needed. In that case, you don't even need to be a DC member or even an owner at all.


How do you join that website to do point exchanges? I tried and it said forbidden, private list. I seem to recall something about making a donation to join.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> How do you join that website to do point exchanges? I tried and it said forbidden, private list. I seem to recall something about making a donation to join.


Not sure what the error you are seeing is, but you should just need to register. Similar to registering for the TUG BBS forum.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> Not sure what the error you are seeing is, but you should just need to register. Similar to registering for the TUG BBS forum.


That must have been its way of saying it hated my proposed username because I changed that and it worked


----------



## duke

This reminds me of that Capital One bank commercial with all the Monkeys in the backroom laughing at people calling in with questions.....  These guys must have been very High when they put this nonsense together.  My bet is 99.9% of current timeshare owners will ignore this crap and just keep using the simple VSN.  Also, there is no way the salesperson can explain this to the average person who attends the presentation.


----------



## Mowogo

duke said:


> This reminds me of that Capital One bank commercial with all the Monkeys in the backroom laughing at people calling in with questions.....  These guys must have been very High when they put this nonsense together.  My bet is 99.9% of current timeshare owners will ignore this crap and just keep using the simple VSN.  Also, there is no way the salesperson can explain this to the average person who attends the presentation.


VSN may be simple and it’s simplicity allowed for outsize value.  DC adds complexity, but that complexity is going to be the price of having access to new resorts. VSN is never going to have more access to inventory Than it does now.  And remember that a most owners do not make rational decisions (ie trading in floating week for Flex).  Especially when the owners updates have their script pushed to have the benefits of using DC over VSN.


----------



## VacationForever

The complexed MVC points requirement based on demand 365 days a year provides for opportunities/value as well as heck-no-way I am using points to book an expensive duration.  It is similar to VSN except that VSN's seasons are more straight forward.  Without looking at the charts, I roughly know how many SOs are needed for a stay but with MVC, I really don't know until I pull the DC chart.  The variation of MVC DC points requirement is significant.  With any high point requirement stays, I use II as my first choice and maybe add on lower point requirement days like Sun-Thu, which I do with both VSN and DC.


----------



## bogey21

_*Moderator Note*: There are two threads about this topic (this one and one in the Marriott forum) and both are getting very heavy traffic with Vistana people checking out both. The content in this post is being deleted because I'm following the lead of @DeniseM (Vistana forum moderator) to keep unhelpful/vague commentary out of the sphere, at least for now. Let's wait until everyone gets a chance to learn what needs to be learned, much of which is still unknown, and then we can all bash it to our heart's content.  <--SueDonJ_


----------



## DanCali

daviator said:


> There is an irony here.  For years, Vistana sold people on the idea of buying the most SOs at the least cost (both purchase cost and MFs) which is how I ended up first buying into WDW… I already owned at WKORV with its high MFs, they convinced me that WDW was much more bang for the buck.  Now the chickens have come home to roost and the lower-MF resorts will (mostly) have lower trading power in DC.





jabberwocky said:


> - Our WKORVN OF week is worth 8325 points.  This is close to what @dioxide45 had guessed they would be worth.  Orlando for us isn't great (2625) and our SDO Plat is worth around  (can't recall the exact number).



The one exchange here nobody is talking about is the rental market. Both VSN and DC are artificial values, but cash is probably the best metric. Even if VSN were to go away tomorrow, a WKV 2BR Platinum owner can rent out their week and use that cash to book a 2BR at WKORV most weeks of the year for about the same dollar amount. There is absolutely no incentive to convert a WKV week in the DC given rental values.

I do find a few things interesting. If WKORVN OF weeks are worth 8325 points those points currently have a rental value of about $5700 (0.68/point) . I suspect that's much higher than those weeks actually rent for which would give owners an incentive to convert weeks and rent out those points. With an increased supply of points rental value of points may actually drop, which would mean that the MFs for DC points (currently ~$0.65/point) may actually end up being higher than the rental value of the points. I can't see how that helps Marriott's cause of selling points as a valuable thing... Technically when rental values drop below MFs resale values should be zero - just look at Orlando weeks.


----------



## bogey21

bogey21 said:


> _*Moderator Note*: There are two threads about this topic (this one and one in the Marriott forum) and both are getting very heavy traffic with Vistana people checking out both. The content in this post is being deleted because I'm following the lead of @DeniseM (Vistana forum moderator) to keep unhelpful/vague commentary out of the sphere, at least for now. Let's wait until everyone gets a chance to learn what needs to be learned, much of which is still unknown, and then we can all bash it to our heart's content.  <--SueDonJ_


All I did was quote and agree with part of post 709.  You delete me and leave it up.  What goes...

George


----------



## SueDonJ

bogey21 said:


> All I did was quote and agree with part of post 709.  You delete me and leave it up.  What goes...
> 
> George



*As moderator:*

_Your post was a throwaway negative comment. Post #709 is a detailed possible comparison of SVV and DC value made by an owner about his/her particular ownership, a comparison that all owners should be thinking about so that they may be somewhat prepared when the time comes to make a decision.

This isn't a case of moderation for the sake of calling out individual posters for egregious violations, George. It's just the way that we're approaching this fluid topic for now (especially with Denise's attention understandably elsewhere.) I'm not going back through the pages and pages in either thread looking to call out anybody in particular, only doing some clean-up as we go along from here to keep the threads on point. _


----------



## DanCali

Regarding "SKIM":

I see a lot of descriptions of "skim" in this thread as "you can't book what you own". I think that is too much of a simplistic way to think about it and I will illustrate that using two Marriott weeks I own.

*(1)* My Newport Coast Villas (NCV) 2BR Plat Plus Fixed Week 26 converts to 5300 points. In the case of a single fixed week, it's easy to see - I got 5300 points and it would take me 5675 points to book that week. So, I lost 6.6% to "skim". This is indeed a case of "you can't book what you own".

*(2) *But it's more complicated with the NCV Platinum weeks I own.

A NCV Platinum week (weeks 23-51, excluding 26) converts to 3475 points.

7 of the weeks in the season require 4225 points to book (early summer and late summer)
7 of the weeks in the season require 4725 points to book (mid summer).
14 of the weeks in the season require 2900 points to book (mid September onward)

So if I have 3475 points did I get skimmed??? I can't book a summer week but I can actually book 8 nights in September to December, so converting is valuable if that's when I like to go....

The right way to think about skim, in my view, is what is the average number of points required to book a week in the season you own? If you got that number of points it'd mean that "points in = points out" just like Vistana. If all owners converted, they'd have enough points to book all the inventory. If you get less, then there is skim.

In the case of NCV Platinum weeks the average number of points needed to book a week in the season is about 3690 (weighted average of point values above: (7x4225 + 7x4725 + 14*2900) divided by 28 weeks in the season34). But owners converting a platinum week to points actually get 3475 points (about 5.8% less). Neither 3690 or 3475 would be enough to book a summer week with points but both would be good to book 8 nights in the fall. However, 3690 would be "fair" with no skim, even if you can't book every week in the season you own - in fact, it would not be feasible to offer any more than that. But 3475 points shortchanges owners  by 215 points each time they convert to points. That's skimming.

Under this definition, the skim in the DC has been around 5%-7% since inception. I suspect once these tables are available, we'll see the same thing with Vistana weeks.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> Regarding "SKIM":
> 
> I see a lot of descriptions of "skim" in this thread as "you can't book what you own". I think that is too much of a simplistic way to think about it and I will illustrate that using two Marriott weeks I own.
> 
> *(1)* My Newport Coast Villas (NCV) 2BR Plat Plus Fixed Week 26 converts to 5300 points. In the case of a single fixed week, it's easy to see - I got 5300 points and it would take me 5675 points to book that week. So, I lost 6.6% to "skim". This is indeed a case of "you can't book what you own".
> 
> *(2) *But it's more complicated with the NCV Platinum weeks I own.
> 
> A NCV Platinum week (weeks 23-51, excluding 26) converts to 3475 points.
> 
> 7 of the weeks in the season require 4225 points to book (early summer and late summer)
> 7 of the weeks in the season require 4725 points to book (mid summer).
> 14 of the weeks in the season require 2900 points to book (mid September onward)
> 
> So if I have 3475 points did I get skimmed??? I can't book a summer week but I can actually book 8 nights in September to December, so converting is valuable if that's when I like to go....
> 
> The right way to think about skim, in my view, is what is the average number of points required to book a week in the season you own? If you got that number of points it'd mean that "points in = points out" just like Vistana. If all owners converted, they'd have enough points to book all the inventory. If you get less, then there is skim.
> 
> In the case of NCV Platinum weeks the average number of points needed to book a week in the season is about 3690 (weighted average of point values above: (7x4225 + 7x4725 + 14*2900) divided by 28 weeks in the season34). But owners converting a platinum week to points actually get 3475 points (about 5.8% less). Neither 3690 or 3475 would be enough to book a summer week with points but both would be good to book 8 nights in the fall. However, 3690 would be "fair" with no skim, even if you can't book every week in the season you own - in fact, it would not be feasible to offer any more than that. But 3475 points shortchanges owners  by 215 points each time they convert to points. That's skimming.



Another way of looking at "skim," the way I always have, is in making the comparison between the value you can get out of any other exchange company and what you can get via the DC Exchange Company. For my particular high-DC-point-value non-lock-off 3BR Weeks that only ever exchanged to 2BR units in II, the DC is much less of a skim for my Weeks than II's skim.

Our two posts are examples of how important it is for each owner to consider how their particular ownership will be impacted by DC values and usage rules. The DC certainly doesn't work for everyone, but neither do blanket statements about it being either The Best! or The Worst! timeshare product that's ever been offered by any timeshare company. The decision to participate is going to require some focused thinking, that's for sure.


----------



## dioxide45

The best way to determine if a reservation should be made via DC or VSN is to look at the conversion ratios. Let's look at a specific scenario;

@jabberwocky  WKORVN OF 2BR week is worth 8,325 Club Points. That is worth 176,700 StarOptions. A ratio of 21.225:1.

Say you want to go to Scottsdale SDO 2BR for a week in July. That is only 1,450 Club Points. That same week would cost 56,300 StarOptions in VSN. That is a ratio of 38:827:1. In this case you are far better to book using Club Points than StarOptions.

Another way to look at it is to look at how many weeks you could get with StarOptions. In the case of SDO above, you can only get about 3 weeks from the 176,700 StarOptions but if you look at Club Points, you can get over five weeks.

176,700 / 56,300 = 3.14
8,325 / 1450 = 5.74

This is of course only one scenario and the analysis would need to be done for every week or day in the system for any given reservation. If only someone could come up with a tool to make it easy


----------



## pchung6

My head really spins after going through all the VSN MVC comments. This new DC chart is so complicated and confusing. Why would anyone wants to convert from VSN? Especially if I can't book back what I own, it is something I really don't understand. What is that skim in DC and I don't think I never heard "skim" in VSN SO chart. Who determines the skim, any formula behind that? It is not transparent and so many grey areas they can hide (pocket more profit?) If I want a lower season stay, I can just book a cheap II Getaway. No matter which way I look at it, I will just stay with VSN as long as I can. MVC is just way too complicated.


----------



## Eric B

If they do set it up so that mandatory resale weeks are included, it seems to me that it opens up another set of exchange rates for me to consider in arbitraging my timeshare usage.  Complication is good for folks that have access to multiple exchange systems.


----------



## dioxide45

pchung6 said:


> My head really spins after going through all the VSN MVC comments. This new DC chart is so complicated and confusing. Why would anyone wants to convert from VSN? Especially if I can't book back what I own, it is something I really don't understand. What is that skim in DC and I don't think I never heard "skim" in VSN SO chart. Who determines the skim, any formula behind that? It is not transparent and so many grey areas they can hide (pocket more profit?) If I want a lower season stay, I can just book a cheap II Getaway. No matter which way I look at it, I will just stay with VSN as long as I can. MVC is just way too complicated.


There is no skim in VSN. What you get for a week is what you pay for the same week. Hilton works in a similar way. The difference between Hilton and VSN vs Marriott is that Hilton and Vistana have fees. Whether they be housekeeping fees, reservation fees, cancellation fees, banking fees. Those fees cover the cost to administer the program and additional housekeeping's. With Marriott, you pay the price in a little less time. The fees are invisible because that fee is taken in skim. In Vistana, broken weeks usually mean you end up with a few StarOptions left over at the end of the year. I know we have 600 we won't be able to use and will just lose. I think we lost 2,000 last year. It just didn't make sense to bank them and pay the $109 banking fee. WIth Marriott, there is no banking fee, so you can just bank 50 points if you want.

In the end, overall there is a skim somewhere. Marriott just shows it in the points values where others have it in fees or lost points.


----------



## pchung6

dioxide45 said:


> Say you want to go to Scottsdale WKV 2BR for a week in July. That is only 1,450 Club Points. That same week would cost 56,300 StarOptions in VSN. That is a ratio of 38:827:1. In this case you are far better to book using Club Points than StarOptions.
> 
> Another way to look at it is to look at how many weeks you could get with StarOptions. In the case of WKV above, you can only get about 3 weeks from the 176,700 StarOptions but if you look at Club Points, you can get over five weeks.


The way I look at it:
1 week of Hawaii Oceanfront > 5 weeks of desert in the summer. Seriously, don't do it, it is torturing. The middle of summer desert is $299 or less in Getaway.


----------



## pchung6

dioxide45 said:


> In the end, overall there is a skim somewhere. Marriott just shows it in the points values where others have it in fees or lost points.


Got it. Thanks for the detail explanation.


----------



## DanCali

pchung6 said:


> My head really spins after going through all the VSN MVC comments. This new DC chart is so complicated and confusing. Why would anyone wants to convert from VSN? Especially if I can't book back what I own, it is something I really don't understand. What is that skim in DC and I don't think I never heard "skim" in VSN SO chart. Who determines the skim, any formula behind that? It is not transparent and so many grey areas they can hide (pocket more profit?) If I want a lower season stay, I can just book a cheap II Getaway. No matter which way I look at it, I will just stay with VSN as long as I can. MVC is just way too complicated.



Regarding skim, you can read my recent post (#727). You will generally not convert to points to book what you own (although sometimes it's worth doing for an off-season week). But think of skim as a 5%-7% transaction fee MVC takes from the points your week is actually worth. Not much different from an II exchange fee.

We've owned with both systems since pre-2010 and felt the same way initially. After the DC launched in 2010, we held off on enrolling our MVC resale pre-2010 weeks for quite a few years even though then enrollment fee was "only" $2000 compared to a $30K+ spend for enrolling post 2010 weeks. The catalyst for us to enroll was that they were going to increase the number of points required for "Executive" from 6500 to 7000 and our 2 NCV Platinum weeks were 6950 points so it made sense to get grandfathered at the 6500 level.

I don't convert my MVC weeks to points often. I like to maximize the value of my weeks and, in my case, it makes more sense to rent out my week and use the cash to rent points from others, but being enrolled gives me the ability to rent points from others.

The ability to book in both systems has enhanced some of our vacations - we've booked trips combining St. John (VSN) and St. Thomas (DC points), and WPORV (VSN) and Poipu (DC Points) for example, and MVC does have resorts in many locations you cannot book with VSN in general. I always try to do things in the most efficient manner to maximize ownership value, but having access to both systems is not a bad thing. You can choose to use it often, sometimes, or never. The extra ~$200 in Club fees we've been paying annually justifies the extra potential flexibility.


----------



## dsmrp

dioxide45 said:


> There is no skim in VSN. What you get for a week is what you pay for the same week. Hilton works in a similar way. The difference between Hilton and VSN vs Marriott is that Hilton and Vistana have fees. Whether they be housekeeping fees, reservation fees, cancellation fees, banking fees. Those fees cover the cost to administer the program and additional housekeeping's. With Marriott, you pay the price in a little less time. The fees are invisible because that fee is taken in skim. In Vistana, broken weeks usually mean you end up with a few StarOptions left over at the end of the year. I know we have 600 we won't be able to use and will just lose. I think we lost 2,000 last year. It just didn't make sense to bank them and pay the $109 banking fee. WIth Marriott, there is no banking fee, so you can just bank 50 points if you want.
> 
> In the end, overall there is a skim somewhere. Marriott just shows it in the points values where others have it in fees or lost points.


The VSN and Marriott club fees are fairly comparable for multiple VOI owners, as I posted earlier.  Marriott might be $50-$100 more than VSN depending upon ownership level.  However even with the VSN banking and housekeeping fees, VSN is IMO, less expensive than the Marriott skim.  Vacation time in the form of points/options, resort days is much more expensive than administrative fees. 
I'd rather get more vacation time.

This applies mainly to the lower MF cost locations such as Orlando, Arizona etc.  The more desirably located resorts with commensurably higher MFs, e.g. Hawaii, St John, prime ski weeks, will do better in Marriott's DC.

I've been sort of expecting the reduced vacation usage in Marriott's currency, since I have lower cost traders in VSN.  That's why I bought a Hawaii location in another TS system ;-)


----------



## dioxide45

pchung6 said:


> The way I look at it:
> 1 week of Hawaii Oceanfront > 5 weeks of desert in the summer. Seriously, don't do it, it is torturing. The middle of summer desert is $299 or less in Getaway.


That was of course just one scenario. The numbers could be done against any planned reservation. Costs of getaways would also need to be taken into consideration. I actually don't mind the summer in the desert. Heading back there for five weeks this summer!


----------



## Mowogo

dioxide45 said:


> That was of course just one scenario. The numbers could be done against any planned reservation. Costs of getaways would also need to be taken into consideration. I actually don't mind the summer in the desert. Heading back there for five weeks this summer!


I’ve done Palm Springs and Vegas in the heat of summer and as long as you have good pool access


----------



## rickandcindy23

Mowogo said:


> I’ve done Palm Springs and Vegas in the heat of summer and as long as you have good pool access


AND AC that works in the unit helps, too.  

I wouldn't go to Palm Desert or Vegas in the summer.  Nor would I go to Phoenix in the summer.  But Rick is up for Phoenix and asked about us going this summer.  Nope.


----------



## VacationForever

rickandcindy23 said:


> AND AC that works in the unit helps, too.
> 
> I wouldn't go to Palm Desert or Vegas in the summer.  Nor would I go to Phoenix in the summer.  But Rick is up for Phoenix and asked about us going this summer.  Nope.


Vegas is 5 to 10 degrees cooler than Palm Desert and Phoenix.


----------



## pchung6

Mowogo said:


> I’ve done Palm Springs and Vegas in the heat of summer and as long as you have good pool access


I was in Palm Desert at WDW during July 4th last year. It was like 120, I couldn’t even go out until like 7pm and pool closed at 8pm if I remember correctly. I couldn’t even breathing during the day. Stay inside the room all day is no fun. I went because I had an II Covid cancellation certificate expiring in July. In Hawaii, I can have my margarita and poke and sitting or laying on the beach chair all day.


----------



## Bill R

dougp26364 said:


> I sincerely doubt you will ever see more resorts developed in the Sheraton, Westin or Vistana name. In fact, my belief is that MVW will eventually rebrand everything as Marriott Vacation Club. Maybe not right away, but at some point in the future.
> 
> When Marriott introduced the DC, there was a reasonable fee to join. Like you I initially felt I would never use it. After all I was adept at exchanging weeks and could get better value in most instances using the old weeks exchange program, and I still can if I want too. But I bought in early to protect my usage rights should I change my mind. Turns out that was a very good decision on my part. Over the years the flexibility has proven more valuable to us as our lives have changed as has our employment situations. One can never underestimate the value of keeping your options open.
> 
> The ability to book shorter stays, elect midweek check in dates, bank/borrow points and book specific view categories has proven invaluable for us. Don’t so easily discount all the additional locations ILG owners will gain access too once they have the option.
> 
> Talking with TUG members and speaking to the general timeshare owner population is like talking to the educated and the uneducated. There are a lot more uneducated than there are TUG members. The percentage of TUG members jumping at the opportunity will likely be much smaller than the non-TUG owners, and that group of owners far out numbers those of us on TUG.



This BBS is very helpful for long-owning TS owners like myself, but just FYI, we have all of this same benefits currently as Vistana owners.  I am sure I am nowhere as sophisticated an owner as many here, but we have owned OF at WKORN for a while and I think, like St. John, folks buy/own there because that's where they want to go.  Having said that, there are a few MVC properties that we are pretty interested in...


----------



## CVC

dioxide45 said:


> The best way to determine if a reservation should be made via DC or VSN is to look at the conversion ratios. Let's look at a specific scenario;
> 
> @jabberwocky  WKORVN OF 2BR week is worth 8,325 Club Points. That is worth 176,700 StarOptions. A ratio of 21.225:1.
> 
> Say you want to go to Scottsdale SDO 2BR for a week in July. That is only 1,450 Club Points. That same week would cost 56,300 StarOptions in VSN. That is a ratio of 38:827:1. In this case you are far better to book using Club Points than StarOptions.
> 
> Another way to look at it is to look at how many weeks you could get with StarOptions. In the case of SDO above, you can only get about 3 weeks from the 176,700 StarOptions but if you look at Club Points, you can get over five weeks.
> 
> 176,700 / 56,300 = 3.14
> 8,325 / 1450 = 5.74
> 
> This is of course only one scenario and the analysis would need to be done for every week or day in the system for any given reservation. If only someone could come up with a tool to make it easy


Could you clarify where you got the ratio of 21.225:1 for the KORVN OF?  Has that been posted?  The numbers posted we saw, Westin was 28:1.  How are you going the opposite direction; from Marriott DC to SO?  Just trying to figure out the different conversions and how they are being figured out.  The lowest conversion we have seen is Nanae at 23:1, but that was pulled to be tweaked.  Thanks!


----------



## dioxide45

pchung6 said:


> My head really spins after going through all the VSN MVC comments. This new DC chart is so complicated and confusing. Why would anyone wants to convert from VSN? Especially if I can't book back what I own, it is something I really don't understand. What is that skim in DC and I don't think I never heard "skim" in VSN SO chart. Who determines the skim, any formula behind that? It is not transparent and so many grey areas they can hide (pocket more profit?) If I want a lower season stay, I can just book a cheap II Getaway. No matter which way I look at it, I will just stay with VSN as long as I can. MVC is just way too complicated.


The same is true for Platinum season though too.

WKORVN OF 2BR week is worth 8,325 Club Points. That is worth 176,700 StarOptions. A ratio of 21.225:1.

Say you want to go to Scottsdale WKV 2BR for a week in March (prime spring break). I can't read the dates, but I think that is 5,400 Club Points. That same week would cost 148,100 StarOptions in VSN. That is a ratio of 27:425:1. In this case you are far better to book using Club Points than StarOptions.

By taking club points of 8,325 and spending 5,400 of them for WKV, you end up with 2,925 points left over. That is enough for another week somewhere, where in VSN they only have 28,600 StarOptions left over. Might get them a week in super low season somewhere. Of course you are relying on a Westin Kierland Villas owner also electing Club Points. Perhaps they find a scenario that works well for them. Maybe Lagunamar or something else. It all then becomes very fluid as you aren't relying on direct exchanges between each set of inventory, but many owners throwing their weeks into the pool.

I do think that VSN will have good inventory for quite some time and it will take some time for a lot of VSN owners to warm up to electing Club Points. Some will see value and others won't.


----------



## pchung6

dioxide45 said:


> Say you want to go to Scottsdale WKV 2BR for a week in March (prime spring break). I can't read the dates, but I think that is 5,400 Club Points. That same week would cost 148,100 StarOptions in VSN. That is a ratio of 27:425:1. In this case you are far better to book using Club Points than StarOptions.


This makes sense. We just need to see if there are enough WKV platinum+ owners to elect Marriott points. Most owners currently use WKV for internal arbitrage, aka to book 141k pts 2br in Maui, not the other way around. We will see WKV owners will see enough value with the new points chart. I feel they will still stay with VSN to maximize WKV value in VSN.


----------



## dioxide45

pchung6 said:


> This makes sense. We just need to see if there are enough WKV platinum+ owners to elect Marriott points. Most owners currently use WKV for internal arbitrage, aka to book 141k pts 2br in WKORVN, not the other way around. We will see WKV owners will see enough value with the new points chart. I feel they will still stay with VSN to maximize WKV value in VSN.


I think it will start out that way. It did when Marriott switched over to DC. Many people said they would never deposit their week for points. Some still do to this day, us included. For many it is just an automatic process for them to go in and elect the DC points now. They aren't worried as much about squeezing every point they can (yes this does contradict prior statements). They just look to the simplicity and ease of booking. Some Vistana owners will like the additional resorts. Who knows when, but 5, 10 or more years from now, more owners may be taking Club Points than sticking it out in VSN.

Then over time there will also be all of the new resales that will be effectively locked out of the combined program without a big point purchase. So those will also be the people that continue to play in VSN. I don't have any major concerns about using our StarOptions for the places we like to go.


----------



## byeloe

dioxide45 said:


> Say you want to go to Scottsdale WKV 2BR for a week in March (prime spring break). I can't read the dates, but I think that is 5,400 Club Points


Do we know how many Club points a WKV Platinum+ 2BD owner will receive if they Elect?


----------



## MICROZE

byeloe said:


> Do we know how many Club points a WKV Platinum+ 2BD owner will receive if they Elect?


Looking at the sheet posted [not very clear] it looks like "it depends".

Within VSN: WKV PLATINUM+ is weeks 1->21 & 50->52
Based on the sheet:

If your WEEK-# falls between JAN-27 & APR-06 you accrue 5400 DCP.
If you have WEEK-#15 [also PLAT+] you accrue 3800-DCP
If you have WEEK-# 50 or #1 [also PLAT+] you accrue 2950-DCP
Unless something changes, it looks like all PLATINUM+ owners will not be treated the same.
It's a luck of the draw where your WEEK-# falls which is not going to please many.

*NOTE:* My assumption above is wrong. It was corrected in POST *#750* below.


----------



## byeloe

MICROZE said:


> Looking at the sheet posted [not very clear] it looks like "it depends".
> 
> Within VSN: WKV PLATINUM+ is weeks 1->21 & 50->52
> Based on the sheet:
> 
> If your WEEK-# falls between JAN-27 & APR-06 you accrue 5400 DCP.
> If you have WEEK-#15 [also PLAT+] you accrue 3800-DCP
> If you have WEEK-# 50 or #1 [also PLAT+] you accrue 2950-DCP
> Unless something changes, it looks like all PLATINUM+ owners will not be treated the same.
> It's a luck of the draw where your WEEK-# falls which is not going to please many.


Is that the week on the deed?


----------



## dioxide45

MICROZE said:


> Looking at the sheet posted [not very clear] it looks like "it depends".
> 
> Within VSN: WKV PLATINUM+ is weeks 1->21 & 50->52
> Based on the sheet:
> 
> If your WEEK-# falls between JAN-27 & APR-06 you accrue 5400 DCP.
> If you have WEEK-#15 [also PLAT+] you accrue 3800-DCP
> If you have WEEK-# 50 or #1 [also PLAT+] you accrue 2950-DCP
> Unless something changes, it looks like all PLATINUM+ owners will not be treated the same.
> It's a luck of the draw where your WEEK-# falls which is not going to please many.


These are the number of points needed to book a week. I don't recall where I saw it, but seem to remember something in the 4,800 or 4,400 range. All Plat+ weeks will elect at the same amount. Just the cost to book varies by the week.


----------



## alexadeparis

CPNY said:


> @alexadeparis Did it miss something? Was the HRA unit enrolled or retro with a purchase or just the WSJ? The HRA was written as a resale in pen, but it also shows VSE ENROLLED.


Yes the HRA was retroed later after I got it.


----------



## alexadeparis

lily28 said:


> alexadepris
> how many flex points or total $$ spend did vistana requires to retro your svv resale?


They offered 44,000 eoy  for $11,xxx, I don’t remember exactly the last numbers


----------



## MICROZE

dioxide45 said:


> These are the number of points needed to book a week. I don't recall where I saw it, but seem to remember something in the 4,800 or 4,400 range. All Plat+ weeks will elect at the same amount. Just the cost to book varies by the week.


Makes sense that all PLAT+ owners should accrue the same amount of DCP-Points.
Thus, the sheet I was referring to only applies to booking.

Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## MICROZE

alexadeparis said:


> They offered 44,000 eoy  for $11,xxx, I don’t remember exactly the last numbers


This has been the offer for the last couple of years.

Spend $10K [Flex-Points can vary based on EY/EOY] to retro 1-Unit [SO is irrelevant as you can retro 81K or 148K].
For each additional $5K you can retro an additional unit.
Thus for $20K you could enroll 3 x WKV [148.1K SO] units.


----------



## TravelTime

daviator said:


> I think the source corrected himself and said that anybody that was eligible to trade for Bonvoy points would be eligible to convert for DPs.  I believe it’s likely that unqualified resale owners of mandatory weeks will be out of luck based on this statement.



I re-read the responses from Denise’s source and I did not see that he said this. If I am wrong and missed it, can you cut and paste where he said this? I remember someone on this thread saying this as an example to try to clarify what he interpreted from the other thread.


----------



## TravelTime

It seems to me that the trust does not have enough inventory in Maui. Maui is booked on the first day it is released within minutes. I would find it hard to imagine that MVC would not want to find a way to encourage Maui owners to deposit their weeks whether it is qualified or not. I can’t help but imagine there will be a way for MVC to make it attractive to get Westin Maui weeks into the trust. I would not buy a bunch of MVC points to enroll because I already have a ton of DPs and do not need more. 

If they made it attractive to convert my Maui oceanfront week into DPs, I would actually do that. I would elect to convert every year I am eligible even if I ended up using DPs to re-book back into Maui. The reason I would do this is because I could book at 13 months instead of 12. The other reason is I do not actually want to go to Maui every time I am eligible to travel to use my week. When I do not want to visit Maui, I prefer to rent it out over using Vistana to exchange since I do not want to book at 8 months. Even if I did, I do not love the other resorts that I could exchange back into at 8 months. The little I like is not available at 8 months.


----------



## TravelTime

I have a question about how people “qualify” their mandatory resale weeks within Vistana. Has anyone actually done this? From everything I read on TUG, this is a waste of money.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> It seems to me that the trust does not have enough inventory in Maui. Maui is booked on the first day it is released within minutes. I would find it hard to imagine that MVC would not want to find a way to encourage Maui owners to deposit their weeks whether it is qualified or not. I can’t help but imagine there will be a way for MVC to make it attractive to get Westin Maui weeks into the trust. I would not buy a bunch of MVC points to enroll because I already have a ton of DPs and do not need more.
> 
> If they made it attractive to convert my Maui oceanfront week into DPs, I would actually do that. I would elect to convert every year I am eligible even if I ended up using DPs to re-book back into Maui. The reason I would do this is because I could book at 13 months instead of 12. The other reason is I do not actually want to go to Maui every time I am eligible to travel to use my week. When I do not want to visit Maui, I prefer to rent it out over using Vistana to exchange since I do not want to book at 8 months. Even if I did, I do not love the other resorts that I could exchange back into at 8 months. The little I like is not available at 8 months.


But Maui is only booked within minutes for perhaps 15-20% of the weeks, if that. There is inventory that makes it to VSN 8 months. Then that is booked pretty quick too. I think though that with the program, if MVC anticipates 10% of owners electing points, they can set aside 10% of the units from any given week to allocate to Club Point reservations. This is what the DC Exchange Procedures allow them to do.


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> But Maui is only booked within minutes for perhaps 15-20% of the weeks, if that. There is inventory that makes it to VSN 8 months. Then that is booked pretty quick too. I think though that with the program, if MVC anticipates 10% of owners electing points, they can set aside 10% of the units from any given week to allocate to Club Point reservations. This is what the DC Exchange Procedures allow them to do.



I was talking about Maui being booked within minutes for MVC’s Maui. All the inventory released at 13 or 12 months gets booked ASAP.


----------



## daviator

TravelTime said:


> I re-read the responses from Denise’s source and I did not see that he said this. If I am wrong and missed it, can you cut and paste where he said this? I remember someone on this thread saying this as an example to try to clarify what he interpreted from the other thread.


I went back and looked and don’t see it either, so I may have misremembered or interpreted someone else's interpretation as having come from “the source.”  My apologies. 

He says two contradictory things though, he says that anyone who pays a VSN fee will be able to elect DP, and then he says that resale weeks, even mandatory resale weeks (which DO pay the VSN fee) will not be able to elect DC.  Both of those statements cannot be true.

I would bet you $5 that the “can you convert to Bonvoy points?” test will turn out to be the right answer to your question, but I don’t think anybody on this board knows 100% for certain yet.


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> I was talking about Maui being booked within minutes for MVC’s Maui. All the inventory released at 13 or 12 months gets booked ASAP.


I don’t think you will be able to book Maui (the Westins at least) at 13 months through MVC.

The underlying deeds only allow owners them to book at 12 months. Even if the trust is the owner, legally they should not have the ability to make it available ahead of other owners.


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> I went back and looked and don’t see it either, so I may have misremembered or interpreted someone else's interpretation as having come from “the source.”  My apologies.
> 
> He says two contradictory things though, he says that anyone who pays a VSN fee will be able to elect DP, and then he says that resale weeks, even mandatory resale weeks (which DO pay the VSN fee) will not be able to elect DC.  Both of those statements cannot be true.
> 
> I would bet you $5 that the “can you convert to Bonvoy points?” test will turn out to be the right answer to your question, but I don’t think anybody on this board knows 100% for certain yet.


I agree. It was me that made that “can you convert to Bonvoy points?” interpretation and I do think that is how it will play out. Unfortunately, even with "soft launch", we still can't get that one question answered without relying on salespeople that don't give the same answers. The "soft launch" is nothing more than doing what they have been doing for months. The only difference now is that they do have some points charts they can show us, but they won't actually give them out or put them out there yet for people to see. People have to sneak photos while the sales person is away from the desk. Making those available would open them up to too much scrutiny that for the most part will show conversions and requirements to book aren't a very good deal.

I talked to one person today that was at a recent sales presentation and it seems that some sales people are using the new charts as a scare tactic by saying in the future you won't have enough points to book anything. All while never saying that you can continue to use VSN the same as you always had. So this "soft launch" is just a way for corporate to endorse the sales force to pass on more lies and half truths.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> I don’t think you will be able to book Maui (the Westins at least) at 13 months through MVC.
> 
> The underlying deeds only allow owners them to book at 12 months. Even if the trust is the owner, legally they should not have the ability to make it available ahead of other owners.


Do you have the underlying CC&R documents or reservation procedures that support this? I suspect those will be needed in order to push back because I doubt they will take this into consideration. We will very likely see 13 month reservations getting made.


----------



## MICROZE

daviator said:


> I went back and looked and don’t see it either, so I may have misremembered or interpreted someone else's interpretation as having come from “the source.”  My apologies.
> 
> He says two contradictory things though, he says that anyone who pays a VSN fee will be able to elect DP, and then he says that resale weeks, even mandatory resale weeks (which DO pay the VSN fee) will not be able to elect DC.  Both of those statements cannot be true.
> 
> I would bet you $5 that the “can you convert to Bonvoy points?” test will turn out to be the right answer to your question, but I don’t think anybody on this board knows 100% for certain yet.


Based on this *POST **#686*, they were shown their contracts at the presentation.
They were informed that their Retro'd MANDATORY week was eligible while their NON-Retro'd MANDATORY week was NOT eligible to Enroll in the DCP-Program unless they purchased FLEX.
I replied in *POST **#703* by analyzing the sheet posted in #686.

This could be sales trying to sell more.
However, this matches what I was told 2 weeks ago by VSN-Corp.


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> I have a question about how people “qualify” their mandatory resale weeks within Vistana. Has anyone actually done this? From everything I read on TUG, this is a waste of money.


It is the same as you do with a voluntary resale week. Pay $10k for the first deed plus $5k for subsequent deeds to make an additional purchase. Technically they have you sign the VSN agreement as if you were the original owners - I think this is where the term “retro” comes from.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> Do you have the underlying CC&R documents or reservation procedures that support this? I suspect those will be needed in order to push back because I doubt they will take this into consideration. We will very likely see 13 month reservations getting made.


I’ll have to dig them up when I’m out of vacation mode. I’m pretty sure they are in my filing cabinet at home. I’m one of those weirdos who actually reads the damn things.


----------



## VacationForever

jabberwocky said:


> I don’t think you will be able to book Maui (the Westins at least) at 13 months through MVC.
> 
> The underlying deeds only allow owners them to book at 12 months. Even if the trust is the owner, legally they should not have the ability to make it available ahead of other owners.



Even if there is document to show that owners can book at 12 months, weeks often show up in II as much as 18 months ahead.  Booking in MVC allows for 13 months ahead, which in no way affects owners being able to book at 12 months.  You can look at it in terms of different inventories.


----------



## regatta333

Kierland 2BD platinum converts to 4,050 DC points.


----------



## MICROZE

VacationForever said:


> Even if there is document to show that owners can book at 12 months, weeks often show up in II as much as 18 months ahead.  Booking in MVC allows for 13 months ahead, which in no way affect owners being able to book at 12 months.  You can look at it in terms of different inventories.


As an example.

This has been available in II since Feb-2022.


----------



## MICROZE

regatta333 said:


> Kierland 2BD platinum converts to 4,050 DC points.


Where do I go to get this information?

Do you happen to know what WLR 2BR PLAT+ converts to?


----------



## dioxide45

MICROZE said:


> As an example.
> 
> This has been available in II since Feb-2022.
> View attachment 50474


I think Harbour Point though is fixed week fixed unit and owners there get an automatic reservation at 18 months.


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> I think Harbour Point though is fixed week fixed unit and owners there get an automatic reservation at 18 months.


SDO and SVR often show up 18 months ahead in II.


----------



## CPNY

regatta333 said:


> Kierland 2BD platinum converts to 4,050 DC points.


Not bad at all considering how low the MF is for that resort.


----------



## daviator

VacationForever said:


> Even if there is document to show that owners can book at 12 months, weeks often show up in II as much as 18 months ahead.  Booking in MVC allows for 13 months ahead, which in no way affects owners being able to book at 12 months.  You can look at it in terms of different inventories.


Since MVW controls all the moving pieces, they could pretty easily take a reservation that was, technically, a reservation for a reservation, with the official unit booking not occurring until a year prior. They probably can’t do this for inventory they don’t own or control (deeded weeks that have been sold) but could probably do so for inventory they own or control (unsold inventory, trust inventory, etc.)

I'm sure there is some mechanism they could use to abide by the deed requirements while also pre-booking reservations more than a year ahead.  It could all be transparent to the user.  Then at exactly one year prior to check in, some vast quantity of VOIs get automatically reserved by all those who had pre-reserved them prior.  The poor slobs (US) who want to reserve those won’t stand a chance, though this might be a different bucket of inventory than we’d be able to access outside of DP anyway.

It all gets pretty confusing…


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> SDO and SVR often show up 18 months ahead in II.


I beleive SBP does as well, but there is some provision there that allows owners to reserve that early too. Not sure if SDO or SVR have similar provisions. Their resorts date back a long time, pre Starwood.


----------



## regatta333

MICROZE said:


> Where do I go to get this information?
> 
> Do you happen to know what WLR 2BR PLAT+ converts to?



I only know the conversion rate for what we own.  We are in the process of getting our two resale weeks qualified so that we have the option of converting them when it makes sense to do so.  We will probably continue to mostly use the weeks within VSN, especially for booking in Maui, but Vistana does not really have any options on Oahu, and few desirable ones on the east coast.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> I beleive SBP does as well, but there is some provision there that allows owners to reserve that early too. Not sure if SDO or SVR have similar provisions. Their resorts date back a long time, pre Starwood.


I think all of the Cascades (and possibly Lakes) phases are “fixed-float”. We own a week 51 SVR Cascades. It is automatically booked for us 18 months in advance, but is released for general booking if we don’t confirm by x date (I think it is 12 months but I’ve never used this feature). Conceivably, if I were to deposit my week well in advance to II they could keep that Christmas week and make it available.

There is not a similar provision in our SDO that I recall - although a fair number of fixed weeks deeds were sold here.


----------



## pchung6

dioxide45 said:


> I beleive SBP does as well, but there is some provision there that allows owners to reserve that early too. Not sure if SDO or SVR have similar provisions. Their resorts date back a long time, pre Starwood.


I was able to book SBP 24 months before. I had to call and find the rep knows the rule. Most reps don't know SBP deeded week can be booked at 24 months. Of course, this was done with prepaid 2 years of MF.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> I think all of the Cascades (and possibly Lakes) phases are “fixed-float”. We own a week 51 SVR Cascades. It is automatically booked for us 18 months in advance, but is released for general booking if we don’t confirm by x date (I think it is 12 months but I’ve never used this feature). Conceivably, if I were to deposit my week well in advance to II they could keep that Christmas week and make it available.
> 
> There is not a similar provision in our SDO that I recall - although a fair number of fixed weeks deeds were sold here.


SVR also has some kind of internal exchange company that is separate from VSN that allows owners to move between phases and maybe even book either PGA or Vistana Beach Club at six months?


----------



## TravelTime

daviator said:


> I went back and looked and don’t see it either, so I may have misremembered or interpreted someone else's interpretation as having come from “the source.”  My apologies.
> 
> He says two contradictory things though, he says that anyone who pays a VSN fee will be able to elect DP, and then he says that resale weeks, even mandatory resale weeks (which DO pay the VSN fee) will not be able to elect DC.  Both of those statements cannot be true.
> 
> I would bet you $5 that the “can you convert to Bonvoy points?” test will turn out to be the right answer to your question, but I don’t think anybody on this board knows 100% for certain yet.



I agree he says contradictory things. A few of us on this thread noticed that too. Until this is in writing and publically announced, I am not taking anything he says seriously.


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> I don’t think you will be able to book Maui (the Westins at least) at 13 months through MVC.
> 
> The underlying deeds only allow owners them to book at 12 months. Even if the trust is the owner, legally they should not have the ability to make it available ahead of other owners.



That might be true. How do DP owners get to book ahead of MVC weeks owners? Aren’t they able to book at 13 months and some weeks owners can only book at 12 months?


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> SVR also has some kind of internal exchange company that is separate from VSN that allows owners to move between phases and maybe even book either PGA or Vistana Beach Club at six months?


Yes. Lakes and Cascades have this feature. I don’t believe the older phases (Courts, fountains etc.) had this included. Practically I don’t think anyone uses it as its pretty easy to book within SVR phases and VSN is more convenient.


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> It is the same as you do with a voluntary resale week. Pay $10k for the first deed plus $5k for subsequent deeds to make an additional purchase. Technically they have you sign the VSN agreement as if you were the original owners - I think this is where the term “retro” comes from.



Do you mean you buy something direct from Vistana and that qualifies the resale week? I have heard of this but who would do that? I heard it is very expensive and a waste for what you get.


----------



## VacationForever

jabberwocky said:


> Yes. Lakes and Cascades have this feature. I don’t believe the older phases (Courts, fountains etc.) had this included. Practically I don’t think anyone uses it as its pretty easy to book within SVR phases and VSN is more convenient.


Do you have a 2BR or 2BRLO at Cascades?  Thanks.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> Do you mean you buy something direct from Vistana and that qualifies the resale week? I have heard of this but who would do that? I heard it is very expensive and a waste for what you get.


It isn't as expensive as enrolling a post June 2010 resale Marriott week by buying developer DC points. The current retro program through Vistana is $10,000 to retro one week then $5,000 for each additional week. So you can retro two weeks for $15,000, three for $20,000. To bring an external, otherwise ineligible, Marriott week into DC, you need to spend a minimum of about $35,000.


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> Do you mean you buy something direct from Vistana and that qualifies the resale week? I have heard of this but who would do that? I heard it is very expensive and a waste for what you get.


Yes. Usually you would buy Flex direct from developer, but some resorts have weeks still available for sale onsite (WKV is one). I have never seen the value in doing a retro on a mandatory unit as the SO were already available and I’m never going to be converting to Bonvoy.  points. The only other benefit may be 3, 4 or 5* elite - but I wouldn’t pay a premium to get those.


----------



## lily28

if i have 2 every other yr week, does that count as 1 week for retro purpose w $10k spend or will it count as 2 weeks for $15k spend?


----------



## jabberwocky

lily28 said:


> if i have 2 every other yr week, does that count as 1 week for retro purpose w $10k spend or will it count as 2 weeks for $15k spend?


Each VOI counts as a single week for retro purposes. So you would have to spend $15k


----------



## NiteMaire

regatta333 said:


> Kierland 2BD platinum converts to 4,050 DC points.





CPNY said:


> Not bad at all considering how low the MF is for that resort.


But not as good as the value in SVN, unless one is looking for a location not available in SVN.


----------



## jabberwocky

VacationForever said:


> Do you have a 2BR or 2BRLO at Cascades?  How many DC points does the week translate to?  Thanks.


We have a standard 2BR (non-LO). Our sheet we were shown stated 2625 for the week - but ours is week 51 - so not sure if that makes a difference in value.


----------



## robertk2012

dioxide45 said:


> I agree. It was me that made that “can you convert to Bonvoy points?” interpretation and I do think that is how it will play out. Unfortunately, even with "soft launch", we still can't get that one question answered without relying on salespeople that don't give the same answers. The "soft launch" is nothing more than doing what they have been doing for months. The only difference now is that they do have some points charts they can show us, but they won't actually give them out or put them out there yet for people to see. People have to sneak photos while the sales person is away from the desk. Making those available would open them up to too much scrutiny that for the most part will show conversions and requirements to book aren't a very good deal.
> 
> I talked to one person today that was at a recent sales presentation and it seems that some sales people are using the new charts as a scare tactic by saying in the future you won't have enough points to book anything. All while never saying that you can continue to use VSN the same as you always had. So this "soft launch" is just a way for corporate to endorse the sales force to pass on more lies and half truths.



Definitely confusing doublespeak and conflicts to scare and sell more product.


----------



## MICROZE

TravelTime said:


> Do you mean you buy something direct from Vistana and that qualifies the resale week? I have heard of this but who would do that? I heard it is very expensive and a waste for what you get.


Yes. It means you would have to purchase FLEX [Westin, Sheraton or Aventuras]. It is not as expensive as qualifying resales with Marriott, however, purchasing FLEX is bad value as all FLEX points have much higher Maintenance fees than owning a week with ZERO resale value.

As *POST **#786* commented, if what you are qualifying is a MANDATORY, then you don't stand to gain much anyway other than inheriting a few FLEX-Points with High-MF.


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> It isn't as expensive as enrolling a post June 2010 resale Marriott week by buying developer DC points. The current retro program through Vistana is $10,000 to retro one week then $5,000 for each additional week. So you can retro two weeks for $15,000, three for $20,000. To bring an external, otherwise ineligible, Marriott week into DC, you need to spend a minimum of about $35,000.



Why would someone want to retro a week? What are the benefits?


----------



## byeloe

TravelTime said:


> Why would someone want to retro a week? What are the benefits?


If it's a voluntary resort then you would get access to the Star options at 8 months. You can also convert to Bonvoy and count for status level,(not great perks for me)


----------



## dougp26364

Bill R said:


> This BBS is very helpful for long-owning TS owners like myself, but just FYI, we have all of this same benefits currently as Vistana owners.  I am sure I am nowhere as sophisticated an owner as many here, but we have owned OF at WKORN for a while and I think, like St. John, folks buy/own there because that's where they want to go.  Having said that, there are a few MVC properties that we are pretty interested in...



my motto has always been buy/own where you are happiest and will be willing to use/return to every year.

However, as timeshare has evolved, I’ve had to tweak that motto. It’s since become buy/own in the system that has the quality and destinations that make you happy at the benefit level you’re most comfortable owning.

In 2001 we purchased our Ocean Pointe week and have used it every year with the exception of one. We’re still happy with that resort, the season we own and the quality. If we had it to do all over again, we’d still buy our week there, but it might only be a 2 bedroom instead of a 3 bedroom (the kids never joined use there).

As time has gone on and after 20 years, we’ve decided to rotate where we stay at that time of year between Ocean Pointe, Oceana Palms, Crystal Shores and Hawaii. Systems with points make this easier than weeks exchanging through II or RCI. When Marriott went to the trust system, I never really thought we’d use it much, but paid the small fee to join to keep our options open. That turned into one of the better decisions I’ve made owning timeshare.


----------



## YYJMSP

dioxide45 said:


> I beleive SBP does as well, but there is some provision there that allows owners to reserve that early too. Not sure if SDO or SVR have similar provisions. Their resorts date back a long time, pre Starwood.



I think this probably applies to any fixed unit/week deed.  you are guaranteed that that specific time and place, so it can be reserved for you more than 12mos in advance by the system.

we have SVR Cascades and Spas unit that do this.  they show up as tentatively booked 18mos in advance, and you have until 10mos? to confirm, and in this case as they are fixed-float they will release and turn into floating weeks automatically if you don't confirm.  I assume purely fixed stay booked unless you cancel...


----------



## carpie99

I own one developer week (it happens to most of us once /shrug) ... and 4 cheap resale weeks.  Hopefully I'll have the ability to convert those to DC points if I want ... and I can rent the points I need if I need more?  I think that prevents me from ever having to buy or retro just for more DC points.  Does that sound reasonable?

What was the assumption on conversion of a Platinum Vistana Villages 2 Bedroom into DC points?


----------



## Eric B

YYJMSP said:


> I think this probably applies to any fixed unit/week deed.  you are guaranteed that that specific time and place, so it can be reserved for you more than 12mos in advance by the system.
> 
> we have SVR Cascades and Spas unit that do this.  they show up as tentatively booked 18mos in advance, and you have until 10mos? to confirm, and in this case as they are fixed-float they will release and turn into floating weeks automatically if you don't confirm.  I assume purely fixed stay booked unless you cancel...



I have several fixed-fixed WSJ VGV weeks.  They also show up as tentatively booked at the 18-month point and I have until the 10-month point to confirm them.  On a positive note, if they are enrolled because they're mandatory resale weeks, for two of them I could cancel the reservations at the 8-month point and rebook them with SOs prior to the election time for conversion to DC points.  I do enjoy the interactions between different systems when I can figure out how best to use them - this would be a situation where it might be worth qualifying particular mandatory resale weeks as those two are platinum+ ones and will likely get decent conversion rates.


----------



## dioxide45

This is from one of the facebook groups, but shows what fees go away when you go to the higher Club Fee amount. The numbers in the bottom right are the fees for different levels in the MVC DC program. It doesn't seem to indicate the VSN fee going away. So not sure what that means. It would also be great if housekeeping fees were eliminated. I notice they also have the old fee shown for the II exchange fee (it went up $10 in January).


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## MICROZE

byeloe said:


> mainly so you get access to the Star options at 8 months. You can also convert to Bonvoy and count for status level


*Why Qualify/Retro a RESALE Purchase?*

If its a Mandatory-Week it already has access to SO at 8-Months to exchange internally within VSN.
Conversion to Bonvoy is not something I would do due to poor value.
The one reason I can see enrolling a Mandatory is to gain status: 3*, 4* or 5* [accompanied with Bonvoy-Status: Gold/Platinum] which is minimal value.
The NEW reason is being able to exchange internally within the MVCI-DCP-Program.


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## CalGalTraveler

dioxide45 said:


> The best way to determine if a reservation should be made via DC or VSN is to look at the conversion ratios. Let's look at a specific scenario;
> 
> @jabberwocky  WKORVN OF 2BR week is worth 8,325 Club Points. That is worth 176,700 StarOptions. A ratio of 21.225:1.
> 
> Say you want to go to Scottsdale SDO 2BR for a week in July. That is only 1,450 Club Points. That same week would cost 56,300 StarOptions in VSN. That is a ratio of 38:827:1. In this case you are far better to book using Club Points than StarOptions.


Where did you find WKORVN OF is worth 8325. Was that announced somewhere? Sorry I am traveling and may be behind.


----------



## cubigbird

dioxide45 said:


> This is from one of the facebook groups, but shows what fees go away when you go to the higher Club Fee amount. The numbers in the bottom right are the fees for different levels in the MVC DC program. It doesn't seem to indicate the VSN fee going away. So not sure what that means. It would also be great if housekeeping fees were eliminated.
> View attachment 50504



If those MVC fees are accurate that’s quite a jump!!  We don’t use those benefits where Vistana charges us the extra fees so it’s more out of pocket for the same value.


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## VacationForever

CalGalTraveler said:


> Where did you find WKORVN OF is worth 8325. Was that announced somewhere? Sorry I am traveling and may be behind.



Post 654








						CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
					

Depending on the exchange rate, there may be VSN resort/unit that someone may want to secure 13 months out instead of 8 months.  True




					tugbbs.com


----------



## dougp26364

dioxide45 said:


> This is from one of the facebook groups, but shows what fees go away when you go to the higher Club Fee amount. The numbers in the bottom right are the fees for different levels in the MVC DC program. It doesn't seem to indicate the VSN fee going away. So not sure what that means. It would also be great if housekeeping fees were eliminated.
> View attachment 50504



Initially, trading all the extra fees we were paying for the one membership fee was the sole reason for us joining the DC. The price point to enroll was low enough we’d break even on the cost soon enough. We had what amounted to 2 full weeks (one EY and two EOY deeds). Our practice was to lock-off and exchange, so 2 LO fees, 2 exchange fees and our II membership fee. The other resorts we owned at the time were in RCI and and one remaining in II, but all were for personal usage, never being exchanged.


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## VacationForever

I am hoping that they don't charge 2 fees for those who own both Vistana and Marriott.


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## byeloe

MICROZE said:


> Do you happen to know what WLR 2BR PLAT+ converts to?


Supposed to be 4950


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> I am hoping that they don't charge 2 fees for those who own both Vistana and Marriott.


Another unanswered question...


----------



## CVC

jabberwocky said:


> And one for SVR.  They seem to have lined it up pretty closely to the values for Grande Vista.  I know there was some speculation as to how the Orlando resort points values would compare to MVC.  View attachment 50393


Is there a chart for Nanae yet? Thanks


----------



## SueDonJ

VacationForever said:


> I am hoping that they don't charge 2 fees for those who own both Vistana and Marriott.





dioxide45 said:


> Another unanswered question...


Why shouldn't they? Wouldn't somebody who chooses to participate in both II and RCI be expected to cover the annual dues for both of those exchange systems? If the VSN people who also own Marriott enrolled Weeks choose to enroll their Vistana ownerships in the DC, why should the Club Dues fee that they pay for their Marriott ownerships cover the Vistana transactions for their enrolled Vistana products? As a Marriott enrolled-Weeks owner I certainly don't want my Club Dues subsidizing Vistana transaction fees.

My question for when the Q&A thread opens back up is: if eligible Vistana ownerships are not charged a one-time Enrollment Fee at the outset, does that mean that the existing Enrollment Fee for eligible Marriott Weeks will be removed?


----------



## VacationForever

SueDonJ said:


> Why shouldn't they? Wouldn't somebody who chooses to participate in both II and RCI be expected to cover the annual dues for both of those exchange systems? If the VSN people who also own Marriott enrolled Weeks choose to enroll their Vistana ownerships in the DC, why should the Club Dues fee that they pay for their Marriott ownerships cover the Vistana transactions for their enrolled Vistana products? As a Marriott enrolled-Weeks owner I certainly don't want my Club Dues subsidizing Vistana transaction fees.
> 
> My question for when the Q&A thread opens back up is: if eligible Vistana ownerships are not charged a one-time Enrollment Fee at the outset, does that mean that the existing Enrollment Fee for eligible Marriott Weeks will be removed?


They shouldn't charge 2 club fees for the same owner if all their weeks are enrolled.  I don't see it as MVC subsidizing Vistana.  It is no different from MVC being able to book (for free) into Vistana properties in MVC or in II.  Is Vistana subsidizing MVC owners since can the latter can book for free?  Once enrolled, they can cross-book and it is just one club.

RCI and II comparison is not the same.  They are 2 different companies and don't share a common platform.

However, if Vistana weeks are not enrolled, then they should continue to pay a VSN fee, which I would think should remain lower than MVC club fees.


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> My question for when the Q&A thread opens back up is: if eligible Vistana ownerships are not charged a one-time Enrollment Fee at the outset, does that mean that the existing Enrollment Fee for eligible Marriott Weeks will be removed?


While the website shows fees to enroll Marriott weeks, they have effectively removed the enrollment fee by simply watching a webinar.

Denise's contact indicated that they couldn't answer questions on the Marriott side, so I doubt they would know the answer to that question.


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> Why shouldn't they? Wouldn't somebody who chooses to participate in both II and RCI be expected to cover the annual dues for both of those exchange systems? If the VSN people who also own Marriott enrolled Weeks choose to enroll their Vistana ownerships in the DC, why should the Club Dues fee that they pay for their Marriott ownerships cover the Vistana transactions for their enrolled Vistana products? As a Marriott enrolled-Weeks owner I certainly don't want my Club Dues subsidizing Vistana transaction fees.


If you elect DC points though, you aren't using VSN that year (unless with a different VIO). Several of the fees going aware are actually VSN fees anyway, like the cancellation fee and banking fees.


----------



## sharr7

I think I get why there'd probably still be 2 fees but think it's a bad look to roll out this combined program (raising fees on VSN) and then say "but to actually access the combined program you need to pay the separate program fees"

I guess people that own both have been doing it for years anyway in effect. But how many people did they sell FLEX to over the last few years claiming they'd have access to this great merged program, all for the low $155 fee. And now it's actually $430 if you want to have access to both, oops.


----------



## jabberwocky

CVC said:


> Is there a chart for Nanae yet? Thanks


There is one. I didn’t get a picture of it.


----------



## Eric B

SueDonJ said:


> Why shouldn't they? Wouldn't somebody who chooses to participate in both II and RCI be expected to cover the annual dues for both of those exchange systems?





VacationForever said:


> RCI and II comparison is not the same. They are 2 different companies and don't share a common platform.



IMHO, a more appropriate comparison would be either the MVC and corporate II dues, the VSN and corporate II dues, or the Club Wyndham and RCI dues because they are all common ownership of nested exchange systems.


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## NiteMaire

Here's some pictures along with the post (not mine) from a FB group.  It was posted by an owner who recently did a virtual presentation. Pictures detail VSN/Consolidated Club dues along with some benefits.

ETA: I just realized @dioxide45 posted one of the pictures already, but I'll leave it here along with the other pictures.
----------------------------
We are 4 * Vistana owners and received an email from Marriott Vacation Club with a request for a virtual meeting. Here are the results: Vistana will stay the same with the same rules without change as per our contracts. As owners, we can choose to never use a Marriott property and keep doing things the way we have always done. MVC is merely another way for us to vacation like II except when choosing to elect Vacation Club Points (Marriott), we would have to trade our entire unit, ie 2 BR lockoff, not just one half. Our Westin Mission Hills 2 BR platinum plus = 3150 Vacation Club Points; Lagunamar 2 BR platinum plus = 4950 Vacation Club Points and our 63,000 Adventuras options = 2865. Our total in the Marriott system equals 10,200 making us Presidential. I attached a picture of benefits for this level. We are now titanium elite in Bonvoy as long as we still own what we own.
2. Our fees should go down as we all will fall under Marriott for these charges. I have attached charts to show this. Our sales person thought the actual fee for us would be around $300 when things are finalized in EARLY SUMMER. (No June date was mentioned but will only say it is supposed to happen in early summer for the hard launch.)
3. Misc.:  If we elected to convert one unit into Vacation Club Points and did not use all the VCP's, they can be banked. We can use 2 years of VCP's to go on a cruise, etc. With Marriott, we can book 13 months in advance for any number of nights. (only if you elected to convert)
4. These are just some notes. We could have asked anything but once we knew things would not change for us on the Vistana side, it really didn't matter. Her soft sell was for us to add more Adventuras to have total options equaling 148,100 like a 2 BR. We did not buy. She was very nice and had been with MVC for 23 years as a Presidential level owner herself. She told us they can no longer sell Westin Flex as of a couple of days ago. She can only sell Adventuras and Sheraton Flex at this point and is unsure how much longer.  I hope this is helpful


----------



## DanCali

regatta333 said:


> Kierland 2BD platinum converts to 4,050 DC points.





CPNY said:


> Not bad at all considering how low the MF is for that resort.



"Not bad" is a relative term. In terms of Points/MF it may look good. But what about Points/Rental Value? Maintenance fees are something you pay every year and it's a sunk cost. But if you don't use your timeshare in a given year, you can now (i) convert it to DC points, or (ii) rent it out and use that cash - so compare those two options.

I look at it this way - assuming you are allowed to convert (e.g., developer purchase or retro, or whatever rules may be) then you are also allowed to rent points from others. Therefore, a comparison with rental values is valid. With that said, I will assume:

(1) You can rent out Plat WKV for $4000-$4500.
(2) Rental cost of points if $0.65-$0.70.

So, let's take the most conservative example:

Rent WKV for $4000. Use that cash to rent 5700 points at $0.70. I view this as a worst case scenario using the rental market because I took WKV on low and and DC point rental cost at high end.
In a less conservative example rent WKV for $4500 and use that cash to rent 6700 points at $0.67.

These are pretty realistic examples given current rental prices - so does 4050 still look good compared to 5700-6700 points?

One has to keep in mind that:
1) This does involve a bit more hassle than just clicking on a button and electing points
2) Unlike elected points, rented points can only be used by you in a given usage year/period. They cannot be banked or transferred again. So yes, they are more restricted. Don't overbuy!

But converting WKV Plat to 4050 points given its rental value would be giving way too much value away. It'd be pretty easy to end up with 2000-2500 additional points (or 4050 points and ~$1500 in your pocket) the by doing the rental transaction described above. That's a 50%-60% bonus for a bit more extra work and somewhat more restricted points...


----------



## MICROZE

DanCali said:


> "Not bad" is a relative term. In terms of Points/MF it may look good. But what about Points/Rental Value? Maintenance fees are something you pay every year and it's a sunk cost. But if you don't use your timeshare in a given year, you can now (i) convert it to DC points, or (ii) rent it out and use that cash - so compare those two options.
> 
> I look at it this way - assuming you are allowed to convert (e.g., developer purchase or retro, or whatever rules may be) then you are also allowed to rent points from others. Therefore, a comparison with rental values is valid. With that said, I will assume:
> 
> (1) You can rent out Plat WKV for $4000-$4500.
> (2) Rental cost of points if $0.65-$0.70.
> 
> So, let's take the most conservative example:
> 
> Rent WKV for $4000. Use that cash to rent 5700 points at $0.70. I view this as a worst case scenario using the rental market because I took WKV on low and and DC point rental cost at high end.
> In a less conservative example rent WKV for $4500 and use that cash to rent 6700 points at $0.67.
> 
> These are pretty realistic examples given current rental prices - so does 4050 still look good compared to 5700-6700 points?
> 
> One has to keep in mind that:
> 1) This does involve a bit more hassle than just clicking on a button and electing points
> 2) Unlike elected points, rented points can only be used by you in a given usage year/period. They cannot be banked or transferred again. So yes, they are more restricted. Don't overbuy!
> 
> But converting WKV Plat to 4050 points given its rental value would be giving way too much value away. It'd be pretty easy to end up with 2000-2500 additional points (or 4050 points and ~$1500 in your pocket) the by doing the rental transaction described above. That's a 50%-60% bonus for a bit more extra work and somewhat more restricted points...



Thank you for the comparisons.

We own 6 x 2BR-WKV PLAT+ EY.
Last year we rented some for ~$4600 combined [Small + Large].
This year I have already rented most of what I have for ~ $5300 [Small + Large].
These are not even the Super-Bowl weeks which go for much more [Large: $3K+].
This makes it a no brainer that we would continue as-is.

BTW: The MF is $0.62796¢/DCP making the case even more to stick within VSN for WKV.

*WKV V WLR Value:* We also own multiple 2BR-WLR PLAT+. Surprised that *WLR *accrues *4950-DCP [MF: ~$1650], *while *WKV* accrues *4050-DCP [MF: ~$1725]*.
However, looking forward to enroll as all 6 x WKV contracts [all resale] are qualified/retro'd.


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> This is from one of the facebook groups, but shows what fees go away when you go to the higher Club Fee amount. The numbers in the bottom right are the fees for different levels in the MVC DC program. It doesn't seem to indicate the VSN fee going away. So not sure what that means. It would also be great if housekeeping fees were eliminated. I notice they also have the old fee shown for the II exchange fee (it went up $10 in January).
> View attachment 50504


As a 4* Elite, I don’t have to pay for Bonvoy conversion, I have only paid to bank once in 20 years, and I’ve never paid a cancellation fee.  I’ve also never paid for housekeeping, never used VSN Select, and only traded through interval once.  So while the new, higher club dues aren’t going to kill me, I don’t really see that as providing me with a lot more value at least in terms of fees.

ironic that with Vistana, having more ownerships res_ulted in lower fees, but with Marriott, more ownerships/higher status means a higher fee!_


----------



## daviator

Two other questions that occur to me: the banking deadlines under the Marriott program are worse for elite owners; today I have until October 1 to bank, and it looks like under the new program I have only until August 31. Will these new deadlines apply even if not electing DP?

i assume the crazy Bonvoy points conversion rules (you can only convert 65% of your points or some such) only apply if you actually elect DPs and then change your mind and want to convert?  I realize that Bonvoy points aren’t a great value but sometimes they have been a good choice for me.  I hope I am not losing the ability to do so if I choose to.


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> Two other questions that occur to me: the banking deadlines under the Marriott program are worse for elite owners; today I have until October 1 to bank, and it looks like under the new program I have only until August 31. Will these new deadlines apply even if not electing DP?
> 
> i assume the crazy Bonvoy points conversion rules (you can only convert 65% of your points or some such) only apply if you actually elect DPs and then change your mind and want to convert?  I realize that Bonvoy points aren’t a great value but sometimes they have been a good choice for me.  I hope I am not losing the ability to do so if I choose to.


I would expect the current VSN banking rules to apply when banking StarOptions. If you elect DC points for one or more of your VOIs, then the DC banking deadline would apply when banking those Club Points.

As for electing Bonvoy points on Club Points, this is only something that DC Trust point owners can do. Elected enrolled points don't have this option as you convert to Bonvoy based on your underlying week or HomeOptions. That is at least how it works for MVC weeks and how I would expect it to work for elected Club Points from Vistana ownerships.


----------



## CPNY

NiteMaire said:


> Here's some pictures along with the post (not mine) from a FB group.  It was posted by an owner who recently did a virtual presentation. Pictures detail VSN/Consolidated Club dues along with some benefits.
> 
> ETA: I just realized @dioxide45 posted one of the pictures already, but I'll leave it here along with the other pictures.
> ----------------------------
> We are 4 * Vistana owners and received an email from Marriott Vacation Club with a request for a virtual meeting. Here are the results: Vistana will stay the same with the same rules without change as per our contracts. As owners, we can choose to never use a Marriott property and keep doing things the way we have always done. MVC is merely another way for us to vacation like II except when choosing to elect Vacation Club Points (Marriott), we would have to trade our entire unit, ie 2 BR lockoff, not just one half. Our Westin Mission Hills 2 BR platinum plus = 3150 Vacation Club Points; Lagunamar 2 BR platinum plus = 4950 Vacation Club Points and our 63,000 Adventuras options = 2865. Our total in the Marriott system equals 10,200 making us Presidential. I attached a picture of benefits for this level. We are now titanium elite in Bonvoy as long as we still own what we own.
> 2. Our fees should go down as we all will fall under Marriott for these charges. I have attached charts to show this. Our sales person thought the actual fee for us would be around $300 when things are finalized in EARLY SUMMER. (No June date was mentioned but will only say it is supposed to happen in early summer for the hard launch.)
> 3. Misc.:  If we elected to convert one unit into Vacation Club Points and did not use all the VCP's, they can be banked. We can use 2 years of VCP's to go on a cruise, etc. With Marriott, we can book 13 months in advance for any number of nights. (only if you elected to convert)
> 4. These are just some notes. We could have asked anything but once we knew things would not change for us on the Vistana side, it really didn't matter. Her soft sell was for us to add more Adventuras to have total options equaling 148,100 like a 2 BR. We did not buy. She was very nice and had been with MVC for 23 years as a Presidential level owner herself. She told us they can no longer sell Westin Flex as of a couple of days ago. She can only sell Adventuras and Sheraton Flex at this point and is unsure how much longer.  I hope this is helpful


A lot of info making its way to TUG from Facebook. It used to be the other way around lol.

Unrelated: As far as the double club fees some are saying should be paid. That makes no sense. That would turn people off from participating in both programs and would reduce the amount of converted inventory in the DCE. Also think about all of the owners out there who are generally clueless about what they own, They won’t enroll and pay for both. Now imagine increasing every single VSN owners fees to the higher fee without a choice. It’s an easy way to increase revenue without much pushback. People will accept the high membership fee because of the removal of those other dreaded fees. Fees like banking, converting to bonvoy, cancellation,etc. even if someone never paid those other fees because they never took advantage of the options associated with each fee, they would see it as a value because if they ever did take advantage of those benefits, they wouldn’t be charged an additional fee.


----------



## DanCali

MICROZE said:


> BTW: The MF is $0.62796¢/DCP making the case even more to stick within VSN for WKV.




On that front it's not as bad as you suggest.

WKV 2BR MF is $1726 for 2022.
So MF/DC point is about $0.43

That's not bad for compared to MVC Weeks - probably around the middle of the pack, or maybe slightly on the lower (better) end. For example, my NCV Plat Week is $1433 MF and 3475 points - so about $0.41 per point and comparable to WKV.

But since I don't convert NCV Platinum to points because the rental value is a superior option ($3000 for which I can rent ~4300 points), then doing it with WKV makes even less sense.


----------



## JIMinNC

TravelTime said:


> I was talking about Maui being booked within minutes for MVC’s Maui. All the inventory released at 13 or 12 months gets booked ASAP.



My experience in booking Marriott Maui Ocean Club with both points and booking our week, is that all inventory goes fairly quickly - both points and weeks - for peak demand times like whale season Jan-Mar. I've found 12-month points inventory generally shows up online the day before the "official" release date, and our last two bookings with points for Maui (Feb 2022 and Feb 2023) were booked prior to the time when the inventory is supposed to actually be released. The Feb 2023 booking was booked about 18 hours prior to the official 9am Friday release time. Within a few hours after the "official" release day/time, most of the best stuff is gone. I've seen the same thing happen with our weeks bookings. Within a few minutes/hours, it's usually gone.

So, I don't think it's a case of there not being enough inventory in the Trust or the MVC Exchange, it's just Maui is VERY high demand.


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> I would expect the current VSN banking rules to apply when banking StarOptions. If you elect DC points for one or more of your VOIs, then the DC banking deadline would apply when banking those Club Points.
> 
> As for electing Bonvoy points on Club Points, this is only something that DC Trust point owners can do. Elected enrolled points don't have this option as you convert to Bonvoy based on your underlying week or HomeOptions. That is at least how it works for MVC weeks and how I would expect it to work for elected Club Points from Vistana ownerships.


Oh, got it.  I was confused about the two banking deadlines, but I guess I forgot that some people own Club Points (only) with no underlying ownership. So what you say makes sense.


----------



## dsmrp

While I hope there would be only one club fee, I am doubtful that Marriott/Vistana billing software will be updated enough to truly discern _each year_ if an eligible week elected DC points.  For example, if I elected DC points the first year, I think the logic would be charging me DC club fee each year after that whether I elect points or not.  Or charge DC fee if I have banked DC points.
And if there is still a VSN fee, then tack on the VSN club fee if I have/use banked star options.
I'd be fine with getting charged more expensive DC club fee each year, if that was the only club fee.

I'm doubtful of being billed for DC club only for the years I use it because the Vistana site can't even keep track of housekeeping credits from cancelled reservations.


----------



## VacationForever

dsmrp said:


> While I hope there would be only one club fee, I am doubtful that Marriott/Vistana billing software will be updated enough to truly discern _each year_ if an eligible week elected DC points.  For example, if I elected DC points the first year, I think the logic would be charging me DC club fee each year after that whether I elect points or not.  Or charge DC fee if I have banked DC points.
> And if there is still a VSN fee, then tack on the VSN club fee if I have/use banked star options.
> I'd be fine with getting charged more expensive DC club fee each year, if that was the only club fee.
> 
> I'm doubtful of being billed for DC club only for the years I use it because the Vistana site can't even keep track of housekeeping credits from cancelled reservations.


I believe once enrolled, you are always charged DC club fees, regardless what you decide to do with the week/points and there is not a second VSN fee.  That is how it works for MVC.


----------



## kozykritter

VacationForever said:


> I believe once enrolled, you are always charged DC club fees, regardless what you decide to do with the week/points and there is not a second VSN fee.  That is how it works for MVC.


To me the bigger question is what happens to all the fees on the Vistana side. Yes once you enroll your ownership in DC on the MVC, any transactions you do in the MVC system using either annually elected DC points or rented points have no fees just like for MVC owners. However this doesn't address all the transactions you would do wholely on the Vistana side with your week, Flex options or StarOptions. It seems very possible that banking, guest, bonvoy conversion and extra housekeeping fees could all remain in that context and possibly the discounted II exchange fee when exchanging into a Vistana or Marriott property using unconverted Vistana ownership. Denise's contact said all these go away with the higher club dues but it hasn't been made clear that that included everything on the Vistana side.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> To me the bigger question is what happens to all the fees on the Vistana side. Yes once you enroll your ownership in DC on the MVC, any transactions you do in the MVC system using either annually elected DC points or rented points have no fees just like for MVC owners. However this doesn't address all the transactions you would do wholely on the Vistana side with your week, Flex options or StarOptions. It seems very possible that banking, guest, bonvoy conversion and extra housekeeping fees could all remain in that context and possibly the discounted II exchange fee when exchanging into a Vistana or Marriott property using unconverted Vistana ownership. Denise's contact said all these go away with the higher club dues but it hasn't been made clear that that included everything on the Vistana side.


Based on the image shared in this post and another, it seems that the Bonvoy conversion, II exchange fees and banking fees go away. No word on the housekeeping fees


----------



## Eric B

dsmrp said:


> While I hope there would be only one club fee, I am doubtful that Marriott/Vistana billing software will be updated enough to truly discern _each year_ if an eligible week elected DC points.  For example, if I elected DC points the first year, I think the logic would be charging me DC club fee each year after that whether I elect points or not.  Or charge DC fee if I have banked DC points.
> And if there is still a VSN fee, then tack on the VSN club fee if I have/use banked star options.
> I'd be fine with getting charged more expensive DC club fee each year, if that was the only club fee.
> 
> I'm doubtful of being billed for DC club only for the years I use it because the Vistana site can't even keep track of housekeeping credits from cancelled reservations.



This post by @NiteMaire includes a picture that shows no VSN fees for someone paying consolidated club annual dues:









						CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
					

The best way to determine if a reservation should be made via DC or VSN is to look at the conversion ratios. Let's look at a specific scenario;  @jabberwocky  WKORVN OF 2BR week is worth 8,325 Club Points. That is worth 176,700 StarOptions. A ratio of 21.225:1.  Say you want to go to Scottsdale...




					tugbbs.com
				




This leads me to wonder how things would work for someone owning developer-purchased or requalified weeks and mandatory resale unqualified weeks that pays VSN fees for all of them now; if it's only the developer-purchased and requalified weeks that are enrolled in the consolidated club would they have to continue paying the VSN fees for the unqualified mandatory resale weeks if they are not enrolled?  The annual dues are one thing, but there would also be housekeeping fees for excess reservations made with SOs and banking fees for SOs that include both enrolled and non-enrolled deeds.  Similarly, the elimination of II exchange fees in corporate II accounts would have to be treated appropriately.  Seems to argue for the idea that mandatory resale weeks would be enrolled.  (Although from what I've seen in the brief time I've owned with Vistana that Marriott's IT department would surely be up to the task of setting up the system to separate things properly to segregate things....)


----------



## kozykritter

Another question is how would II work if you enroll your ownership into the DC. Right now we all have Vistana corporate Ii accounts and enrolling into the DC would give us also Marriott corporate Ii accounts. Would they remain two separate accounts or are they planning to somehow use one master account for ownership in both programs? I have my Vistana one upgraded to platinum so if they're separate would you have to upgrade two accounts? So many questions.. Marriott please give us real details now


----------



## dioxide45

dsmrp said:


> While I hope there would be only one club fee, I am doubtful that Marriott/Vistana billing software will be updated enough to truly discern _each year_ if an eligible week elected DC points.  For example, if I elected DC points the first year, I think the logic would be charging me DC club fee each year after that whether I elect points or not.  Or charge DC fee if I have banked DC points.
> And if there is still a VSN fee, then tack on the VSN club fee if I have/use banked star options.
> I'd be fine with getting charged more expensive DC club fee each year, if that was the only club fee.
> 
> I'm doubtful of being billed for DC club only for the years I use it because the Vistana site can't even keep track of housekeeping credits from cancelled reservations.


I don't think you would pay one fee one year and a different fee another year. If you opt to enroll, then you start to pay the new DC Club fee of $215+. Don't enroll, continue to pay the $155+$60. What we don't know is, if that $155+$60 really goes away when you start paying the $215+.


----------



## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> This post by @NiteMaire includes a picture that shows no VSN fees for someone paying consolidated club annual dues:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
> 
> 
> The best way to determine if a reservation should be made via DC or VSN is to look at the conversion ratios. Let's look at a specific scenario;  @jabberwocky  WKORVN OF 2BR week is worth 8,325 Club Points. That is worth 176,700 StarOptions. A ratio of 21.225:1.  Say you want to go to Scottsdale...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This leads me to wonder how things would work for someone owning developer-purchased or requalified weeks and mandatory resale unqualified weeks that pays VSN fees for all of them now; if it's only the developer-purchased and requalified weeks that are enrolled in the consolidated club would they have to continue paying the VSN fees for the unqualified mandatory resale weeks if they are not enrolled?  The annual dues are one thing, but there would also be housekeeping fees for excess reservations made with SOs and banking fees for SOs that include both enrolled and non-enrolled deeds.  Similarly, the elimination of II exchange fees in corporate II accounts would have to be treated appropriately.  Seems to argue for the idea that mandatory resale weeks would be enrolled.  (Although from what I've seen in the brief time I've owned with Vistana that Marriott's IT department would surely be up to the task of setting up the system to separate things properly to segregate things....)


I suspect if you enroll, you get a brand new MVC DC II Corporate account. They transfer any elligble enrolled weeks into that account and they dissapear from your VSN II Corporate account. You then use them independantly. That is how it worked when we enrolled our Marriott weeks back in 2011. The big question is, as you also mentioned, do you still have to pay both the VSN fee and the DC Fee. More questions than answers at this point. I wonder if Marriott even thought of all these nuances. Perhaps that is why we have the "Soft Launch", so we can tell them all the stuff they should have thought of themselves?


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect if you enroll, you get a brand new MVC DC II Corporate account. They transfer any elligble enrolled weeks into that account and they dissapear from your VSN II Corporate account. You then use them independantly. That is how it worked when we enrolled our Marriott weeks back in 2011. The big question is, as you also mentioned, do you still have to pay both the VSN fee and the DC Fee. More questions than answers at this point. I wonder if Marriott even thought of all these nuances. Perhaps that is why we have the "Soft Launch", so we can tell them all the stuff they should have thought of themselves?


[Insert joke regarding where their heads are and why they wouldn’t be able to hear what we have to say. Which would ultimately be deleted by moderators]


----------



## wjarcher

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think you would pay one fee one year and a different fee another year. If you opt to enroll, then you start to pay the new DC Club fee of $215+. Don't enroll, continue to pay the $155+$60. What we don't know is, if that $155+$60 really goes away when you start paying the $215+.



My hope is that they allow all VSN members (no matter resale, retro'ed or developer) to enroll and they replace the current VSN fee structure with the new one.  I would not mind paying a little extra to cover fees for II trades and banking even if I don't elect DP points in some year


----------



## dioxide45

NiteMaire said:


> Here's some pictures along with the post (not mine) from a FB group.  It was posted by an owner who recently did a virtual presentation. Pictures detail VSN/Consolidated Club dues along with some benefits.
> 
> ETA: I just realized @dioxide45 posted one of the pictures already, but I'll leave it here along with the other pictures.
> ----------------------------
> We are 4 * Vistana owners and received an email from Marriott Vacation Club with a request for a virtual meeting. Here are the results: Vistana will stay the same with the same rules without change as per our contracts. As owners, we can choose to never use a Marriott property and keep doing things the way we have always done. MVC is merely another way for us to vacation like II except when choosing to elect Vacation Club Points (Marriott), we would have to trade our entire unit, ie 2 BR lockoff, not just one half. Our Westin Mission Hills 2 BR platinum plus = 3150 Vacation Club Points; Lagunamar 2 BR platinum plus = 4950 Vacation Club Points and our 63,000 Adventuras options = 2865. Our total in the Marriott system equals 10,200 making us Presidential. I attached a picture of benefits for this level. We are now titanium elite in Bonvoy as long as we still own what we own.
> 2. Our fees should go down as we all will fall under Marriott for these charges. I have attached charts to show this. Our sales person thought the actual fee for us would be around $300 when things are finalized in EARLY SUMMER. (No June date was mentioned but will only say it is supposed to happen in early summer for the hard launch.)
> 3. Misc.:  If we elected to convert one unit into Vacation Club Points and did not use all the VCP's, they can be banked. We can use 2 years of VCP's to go on a cruise, etc. With Marriott, we can book 13 months in advance for any number of nights. (only if you elected to convert)
> 4. These are just some notes. We could have asked anything but once we knew things would not change for us on the Vistana side, it really didn't matter. Her soft sell was for us to add more Adventuras to have total options equaling 148,100 like a 2 BR. We did not buy. She was very nice and had been with MVC for 23 years as a Presidential level owner herself. She told us they can no longer sell Westin Flex as of a couple of days ago. She can only sell Adventuras and Sheraton Flex at this point and is unsure how much longer.  I hope this is helpful


It looks like I only inclued one image. I missed all the fees would be replaced was perhaps part of two screenshots and the screenshot I provided had cut off the $155?$215 VSN fee being struck through.


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect if you enroll, you get a brand new MVC DC II Corporate account. They transfer any [eligible] enrolled weeks into that account and they [disappear] from your VSN II Corporate account. You then use them [independently]. That is how it worked when we enrolled our Marriott weeks back in 2011. The big question is, as you also mentioned, do you still have to pay both the VSN fee and the DC Fee. More questions than answers at this point. I wonder if Marriott even thought of all these nuances. Perhaps that is why we have the "Soft Launch", so we can tell them all the stuff they should have thought of themselves?



The II one is more of an afterthought for me.  The bigger issue would be how to deal with banking transactions for SOs on the VSN side where the group of SOs includes both enrolled SOs and ones that aren't enrolled (i.e., mixed SOs) as well as cancellation fees for reservations made with mixed SOs.  The fees for those actions are supposed to be waived for enrolled SOs but there hasn't been much discussion about how they'll treat the others.

They could go down the route of making them entirely different pools of SOs similar to the dichotomy between SOs and home options for resale flex ownerships (and the Club Wyndham resale-developer point dichotomy), but there would likely be an issue with the mandatory resort CC&Rs if those SOs can't be used pooled with enrolled ones.


----------



## dioxide45

wjarcher said:


> My hope is that they allow all VSN members (no matter resale, retro'ed or developer) to enroll and they replace the current VSN fee structure with the new one.  I would not mind paying a little extra to cover fees for II trades and banking even if I don't elect DP points in some year


This would be the easiest way to handle it. Otherwise you may have an owner that has a mandatory (unqualified) and a developer purchase or requalified/retroed VOI that could end up paying both fees. The DC Fee for the VOIs that they can enroll and the VOIs that they can't. They would then potentially also need to have two II accounts. One for the enrolled VOis and another for just the pure VSN VOIs. Imagine someone owning a mandatory unqualified, a developer VOI and a vulutanary VOI. They could end up with three II accounts in the end.


----------



## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> The II one is more of an afterthought for me.  The bigger issue would be how to deal with banking transactions for SOs on the VSN side where the group of SOs includes both enrolled SOs and ones that aren't enrolled (i.e., mixed SOs) as well as cancellation fees for reservations made with mixed SOs.  The fees for those actions are supposed to be waived for enrolled SOs but there hasn't been much discussion about how they'll treat the others.
> 
> They could go down the route of making them entirely different pools of SOs similar to the dichotomy between SOs and home options for resale flex ownerships (and the Club Wyndham resale-developer point dichotomy), but there would likely be an issue with the mandatory resort CC&Rs if those SOs can't be used pooled with enrolled ones.


For this reason, and this reason alone, I say they should just let all mandatory week owners enroll. KISS is what they say!


----------



## Eric B

wjarcher said:


> My hope is that they allow all VSN members (no matter resale, retro'ed or developer) to enroll and they replace the current VSN fee structure with the new one.  I would not mind paying a little extra to cover fees for II trades and banking even if I don't elect DP points in some year



That would make me pretty happy, too.  If it does, I could wind up being Presidential or Chairman's Club based on mandatory resale ownerships alone.  Might even be worth paying some enrollment fee if there's one in the neighborhood of what they did for legacy resale weeks back in the day as I wouldn't be upset paying a slightly higher annual fee and avoid the banking costs, etc.


----------



## dsmrp

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect if you enroll, you get a brand new MVC DC II Corporate account. They transfer any elligble enrolled weeks into that account and they dissapear from your VSN II Corporate account. You then use them independantly. That is how it worked when we enrolled our Marriott weeks back in 2011. The big question is, as you also mentioned, do you still have to pay both the VSN fee and the DC Fee. More questions than answers at this point. I wonder if Marriott even thought of all these nuances. Perhaps that is why we have the "Soft Launch", so we can tell them all the stuff they should have thought of themselves?


Due to COVID, I suspect VSN members have banked options.  I certainly have to bank this year's options too... TBD if we have to pay an additional fee to use those options...

LOL, that is exactly why companies do 'soft launches', so the more expert users will point out the omissions, discrepancies or corner cases not accounted for by the project teams. These can then be addressed or corrected and additional decisions made before the big "user go-live".    It also puts more psychological urgency on owners to "upgrade" now to flex before that option goes away by June.


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> For this reason, and this reason alone, I say they should just let all mandatory week owners enroll. KISS is what they say!



Don't forget enlightened self interest!  That's always a good reason....


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect if you enroll, you get a brand new MVC DC II Corporate account. They transfer any elligble enrolled weeks into that account and they dissapear from your VSN II Corporate account. You then use them independantly. That is how it worked when we enrolled our Marriott weeks back in 2011.


I could see that for weeks but how about Flex? What sold me on Flex was not having to give up your entire VOI to exchange but instead being able to parse out your Flex options across many transactions. Would they move your enrolled Flex into a Marriott account and keep the same structure of the program with the fixed option exchange charts based upon unit size/demand? More questions


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> For this reason, and this reason alone, I say they should just let all mandatory week owners enroll. KISS is what they say!


Should they charge them a bunch of junk fees like Marriott does for point resales before they consider them to be qualified?


----------



## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> Don't forget enlightened self interest!  That's always a good reason....


True, but I didn't want to point that out...


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> Should they charge them a bunch of junk fees like Marriott does for point resales before they consider them to be qualified?


If they allow enrollment of resale weeks, I could see them charging a fee for it where qualified VOIs could be free.


----------



## MICROZE

dioxide45 said:


> For this reason, and this reason alone, I say they should just let all mandatory week owners enroll. KISS is what they say!


Would VSN then refund tens of thousands of $$$$ to those who paid to Qualify/Retro their resale [Mandatory/Voluntary] weeks?
What about Voluntary-Weeks owners? Why leave them out?


----------



## dioxide45

MICROZE said:


> Would VSN then refund tens of thousands of $$$$ to those who paid to Qualify/Retro their resale [Mandatory/Voluntary] weeks?
> What about Voluntary-Weeks owners? Why leave them out?


You don't make it sound so simple now.... But in 2010, Marriott didn't refund anyone that paid full price when they allowed resale owners to enroll. They just charged resale owners a higher fee.

I am all okay with allowing voluntary owners in too.


----------



## daviator

MICROZE said:


> Would VSN then refund tens of thousands of $$$$ to those who paid to Qualify/Retro their resale [Mandatory/Voluntary] weeks?


You're smoking some really potent stuff up there in Seattle.


----------



## Pathways

For months (actually years now) everyone has opined as to what heck was taking so long for Marriott to combine these groups.  

Now that they are close, I think the sheer number of scenarios presented by just our 'small' group on TUG really explains why it has taken sooooo long.


----------



## frank808

DanCali said:


> Good luck to them getting savvy owners to convert at that rate. WKV Plat rents for around $4000-$4500. The rental value of 4050 DC points is $2800, maybe slightly less. So, around a $1500 disparity in value lost in the points conversion.
> 
> Another way to look at it - There are actually decent exchanges to be had within the MVC system for 4050 points, but a peak summer week at Newport Coast, for example is 4725 DC points. Converting to points, an owner would have a tough time making that exchange - they'd have to rent another 700 points for around $500. On the other hand, one can rent out WKV for $4000 rather easily, and rent a summer week 2BR at NCV for $3000 and come out $1000 ahead. So again, a disparity of at least $1500 in value ($1000 inflow, vs $500 outflow).
> 
> While most people prefer convenience and may view rental transactions as a hassle, $1500 is too much of a disparity in value to ignore.


Where have you seen NCV rentals in the summer month of July for $3000? I would rent that from an owner. Thanks

Sent from my SM-T290 using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45

Pathways said:


> For months (actually years now) everyone has opined as to what heck was taking so long for Marriott to combine these groups.
> 
> Now that they are close, I think the sheer number of scenarios presented by just our 'small' group on TUG really explains why it has taken sooooo long.


Sadly, I suspect they haven't even accounted for much of the scenarios we have mentioned. If that is true, the real question is what was taking them so long.


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> For this reason, and this reason alone, I say they should just let all mandatory week owners enroll. KISS is what they say!


Ah, but if they do it this way to KISS, then in the future, all mandatory resale will automatically be enrolled as well.  Just saying...


----------



## VacationForever

frank808 said:


> Where have you seen NCV rentals in the summer month of July for $3000? I would rent that from an owner. Thanks
> 
> Sent from my SM-T290 using Tapatalk


I have seen it consistently on Redweek every year, especially when it gets closer...


----------



## jabberwocky

Eric B said:


> This post by @NiteMaire includes a picture that shows no VSN fees for someone paying consolidated club annual dues:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
> 
> 
> The best way to determine if a reservation should be made via DC or VSN is to look at the conversion ratios. Let's look at a specific scenario;  @jabberwocky  WKORVN OF 2BR week is worth 8,325 Club Points. That is worth 176,700 StarOptions. A ratio of 21.225:1.  Say you want to go to Scottsdale...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This leads me to wonder how things would work for someone owning developer-purchased or requalified weeks and mandatory resale unqualified weeks that pays VSN fees for all of them now; if it's only the developer-purchased and requalified weeks that are enrolled in the consolidated club would they have to continue paying the VSN fees for the unqualified mandatory resale weeks if they are not enrolled?  The annual dues are one thing, but there would also be housekeeping fees for excess reservations made with SOs and banking fees for SOs that include both enrolled and non-enrolled deeds.  Similarly, the elimination of II exchange fees in corporate II accounts would have to be treated appropriately.  Seems to argue for the idea that mandatory resale weeks would be enrolled.  (Although from what I've seen in the brief time I've owned with Vistana that Marriott's IT department would surely be up to the task of setting up the system to separate things properly to segregate things....)


I agree, if they decide to segregate the mandatory resale weeks and don’t let them play in the sandbox, I think they would have to set up a whole new set of II accounts as the MVC II account would have to be different than the VSN account (the current VSN fee covers all VSN-eligible weeks). 

Bottom line is we don’t know the truth and official communications haven’t been released. The salespeople have big incentives to lie about mandatory resales being excluded, and when I see them manipulating ownership information by whiting things out, I get suspicious.

I won’t be making and further purchases in Vistana based on speculation. I like most of what we own. If MVC wants me to convert my resale WKORVN week, they are welcome to let me in for free. Otherwise I will just use it as intended.

If I need to blow an extra $10-15k I think it is better spent on buying more VAC stock. They seem to be making out very well in the midst of this confusion.


----------



## DanCali

frank808 said:


> Where have you seen NCV rentals in the summer month of July for $3000? I would rent that from an owner. Thanks
> 
> Sent from my SM-T290 using Tapatalk



I usually list my NCV rentals at very competitive prices - this is the first year I charged $3000. I charged less in prior years.  Rental prices there have risen significantly since covid due to travel restrictions elsewhere - my default pricing till 2019 was $2600. I expect to have a July week this year for rental - currently in closing process with confirmed reservation. When I'm ready to advertise it, it will be on RedWeek (hopefully, this last sentence did not violate any rules)


----------



## VacationForever

jabberwocky said:


> I agree, if they decide to segregate the mandatory resale weeks and don’t let them play in the sandbox, I think they would have to set up a whole new set of II accounts as the MVC II account would have to be different than the VSN account (the current VSN fee covers all VSN-eligible weeks).
> 
> Bottom line is we don’t know the truth and official communications haven’t been released. The salespeople have big incentives to lie about mandatory resales being excluded, and when I see them manipulating ownership information by whiting things out, I get suspicious.
> 
> I won’t be making and further purchases in Vistana based on speculation. I like most of what we own. If MVC wants me to convert my resale WKORVN week, they are welcome to let me in for free. Otherwise I will just use it as intended.
> 
> If I need to blow an extra $10-15k I think it is better spent on buying more VAC stock. They seem to be making out very well in the midst of this confusion.


For someone who owns both Vistana and Marriott timeshare, I have 2 corporate II accounts currently.  When the Vistana ownership gets enrolled, that ownership simply moves into the Marriott II corporate account.  The bigger question is that if you own both Vistana enrolled and unenrolled weeks, do you pay 2 fees - MVC DC fees and VSN?  I think you would and owners will have to think through whether they want the enrollable weeks enrolled into MVC or not.  I have 3 II accounts current, including a personal non-corporate one.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> I wonder if Marriott even thought of all these nuances. Perhaps that is why we have the "Soft Launch", so we can tell them all the stuff they should have thought of themselves?


I think you’re onto something. The soft launch is really just a way to turn TUG into a big focus group.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> A lot of info making its way to TUG from Facebook. It used to be the other way around lol.


It is interesting how the tide has turned some. There certainly are some very large and very active Facebook groups out there. Even I am starting to participate in some. Something I never thought I would really do that much. I just don't have the time to follow here in great details and read all the posts in those groups. So I do like it when people post information here that they gleam from those groups.


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> It is interesting how the tide has turned some. There certainly are some very large and very active Facebook groups out there. Even I am starting to participate in some. Something I never thought I would really do that much. I just don't have the time to follow here in great details and read all the posts in those groups. So I do like it when people post information here that they gleam from those groups.




Most people on here probably are old enough to remember and probably also used IRC (Internet Relay Chat)  - I doubt the same can be said for Facebook....

I don't even have a Facebook account.


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> It is interesting how the tide has turned some. There certainly are some very large and very active Facebook groups out there. Even I am starting to participate in some. Something I never thought I would really do that much. I just don't have the time to follow here in great details and read all the posts in those groups. So I do like it when people post information here that they gleam from those groups.



Reading those Facebook groups does, however, give you a greater appreciation for what we have here on TUG. The incorrect information that sometimes gets shared on those groups as fact often astounds me, and reading those posts demonstrates just how much insight and knowledge we all share here on TUG


----------



## TravelTime

JIMinNC said:


> My experience in booking Marriott Maui Ocean Club with both points and booking our week, is that all inventory goes fairly quickly - both points and weeks - for peak demand times like whale season Jan-Mar. I've found 12-month points inventory generally shows up online the day before the "official" release date, and our last two bookings with points for Maui (Feb 2022 and Feb 2023) were booked prior to the time when the inventory is supposed to actually be released. The Feb 2023 booking was booked about 18 hours prior to the official 9am Friday release time. Within a few hours after the "official" release day/time, most of the best stuff is gone. I've seen the same thing happen with our weeks bookings. Within a few minutes/hours, it's usually gone.
> 
> So, I don't think it's a case of there not being enough inventory in the Trust or the MVC Exchange, it's just Maui is VERY high demand.



I was talking about Maui and there being a need for more inventory. For this reason, I think the trust needs more Maui inventory. I have no idea what MVC’s new program will look like after they integrate with Vistana. If I were them, I would allow all Westin Maui owners including non-qualified resales to convert for DPs.

I have not seen it available before release time but maybe I am just not lucky!


----------



## ragdoll

wjarcher said:


> My hope is that they allow all VSN members (no matter resale, retro'ed or developer) to enroll and they replace the current VSN fee structure with the new one.  I would not mind paying a little extra to cover fees for II trades and banking even if I don't elect DP points in some year


I don't support this. We never bank our points or trade it and have no interest in doing so. We like where we bought and go there once or twice a year. For our usage, we don't need a new fee structure.


----------



## pchung6

TravelTime said:


> I was talking about Maui and there being a need for more inventory. For this reason, I think the trust needs more Maui inventory. I have no idea what MVC’s new program will look like after they integrate with Vistana. If I were them, I would allow all Westin Maui owners including non-qualified resales to convert for DPs.
> 
> I have not seen it available before release time but maybe I am just not lucky!


I don’t want to join even it is free. Hope other owners can see the same as me, so we can keep VSN alive as long as possible. I’m thinking to buy another WKORVN OF, but the price has gone up insane recently.


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> I was talking about Maui and there being a need for more inventory. For this reason, I think the trust needs more Maui inventory. I have no idea what MVC’s new program will look like after they integrate with Vistana. If I were them, I would allow all Westin Maui owners including non-qualified resales to convert for DPs.
> 
> I have not seen it available before release time but maybe I am just not lucky!


They really cannot pick and choose as to which resort is allowed to enroll or not.  Policies have to be consistent.


----------



## daviator

DanCali said:


> Most people on here probably are old enough to remember and probably also used IRC (Internet Relay Chat)  - I doubt the same can be said for Facebook....
> 
> I don't even have a Facebook account.


IRC?  That’s almost newfangled.  How about dial-up BBS systems?  They were around long before there was an internet.  I always wondered, because of its name, if TUG perhaps went back that far.

As for Facebook, I am in several timeshare-oriented groups there but most of the participants are so amazingly ignorant that I rarely find them useful.  Someone will ask a legitimate question and then get 50 different answers, 45 of which are completely wrong.  And the person who asked the question probably has no way to filter out the worthless responses because they don’t know the right answer.  

Also, Facebook doesn’t really provide a useful way to search for information previously posted or questions previously answered, and so the same questions and complaints get posted over and over again.  Thank goodness for our wonderful moderators here who keep things organized.  

Sometimes I will take the time to answer someone's question there on Facebook, but my answer may get quickly lost in the sea of wrong answers posted by others.  There are a small handful of knowledgeable and helpful owners there but the vast majority really don’t understand the programs in which they own.  TUG is much more useful.


----------



## DavidnRobin

pchung6 said:


> I don’t want to join even it is free. Hope other owners can see the same as me, so we can keep VSN alive as long as possible. I’m thinking to buy another WKORVN OF, but the price has gone up insane recently.



OF WKORV/N is not part of Westin Flex - another reason OF resale seems to be increasing. 

I have no luck in reserving our OF WKORV - just getting timed out. None of our other resort weeks are getting timed out.
They better resolve this soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CPNY

daviator said:


> IRC?  That’s almost newfangled.  How about dial-up BBS systems?  They were around long before there was an internet.  I always wondered, because of its name, if TUG perhaps went back that far.
> 
> As for Facebook, I am in several timeshare-oriented groups there but most of the participants are so amazingly ignorant that I rarely find them useful.  Someone will ask a legitimate question and then get 50 different answers, 45 of which are completely wrong.  And the person who asked the question probably has no way to filter out the worthless responses because they don’t know the right answer.
> 
> Also, Facebook doesn’t really provide a useful way to search for information previously posted or questions previously answered, and so the same questions and complaints get posted over and over again.  Thank goodness for our wonderful moderators here who keep things organized.
> 
> Sometimes I will take the time to answer someone's question there on Facebook, but my answer may get quickly lost in the sea of wrong answers posted by others.  There are a small handful of knowledgeable and helpful owners there but the vast majority really don’t understand the programs in which they own.  TUG is much more useful.


I look at Facebook groups as high school and TUG as graduate work. I’m of the belief that the Facebook crowd just needs to learn. It’s not their fault. Everyone has a Facebook account and CAN join a group because they own a timeshare. They come in uneducated and disgruntled because lets not forget, they were lied to by a sales rep at one point.

People who WANT to learn come to TUG and put the effort in. I was one of those disgruntled Facebook people at one point. I finally joined TUG (years too late to rescind my developer purchases unfortunately) and learned a bit more about what I bought into. I came to TUG with the same disgruntled attitude I had on Facebook and learned rather quickly that it’s not the same here. I had a choice to make, either shape up and learn or ship out. Well, as I’m sure some wish I shipped out, I didn’t. I went from a one week PO’d owner to owning 5 weeks in different systems…..( thanks TUG for my new obsession/hobby).

I feel we as educated owners need to give back and bring more FB owners to our side. Stop looking at FB as the poor uneducated masses we want to ignore and try our best to educate them. I always advocate for owners to join TUG in every FB TS group I’m in. I love when owners understand how to use their ownerships and go from PO’d to actually making what they own work for them.

In conclusion: Be Kind, Rewind


----------



## CPNY

DavidnRobin said:


> OF WKORV/N is not part of Westin Flex - another reason OF resale seems to be increasing.
> 
> I have no luck in reserving our OF WKORV - just getting timed out. None of our other resort weeks are getting timed out.
> They better resolve this soon.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I called Vistana and told them to make sure your account gets Timed out as punishment for not giving me a WSJ unit HAHAH


----------



## DavidnRobin

daviator said:


> IRC? That’s almost newfangled. How about dial-up BBS systems? They were around long before there was an internet. I always wondered, because of its name, if TUG perhaps went back that far.
> 
> As for Facebook, I am in several timeshare-oriented groups there but most of the participants are so amazingly ignorant that I rarely find them useful. Someone will ask a legitimate question and then get 50 different answers, 45 of which are completely wrong. And the person who asked the question probably has no way to filter out the worthless responses because they don’t know the right answer.
> 
> Also, Facebook doesn’t really provide a useful way to search for information previously posted or questions previously answered, and so the same questions and complaints get posted over and over again. Thank goodness for our wonderful moderators here who keep things organized.
> 
> Sometimes I will take the time to answer someone's question there on Facebook, but my answer may get quickly lost in the sea of wrong answers posted by others. There are a small handful of knowledgeable and helpful owners there but the vast majority really don’t understand the programs in which they own. TUG is much more useful.




Totally agree - I am constantly amazed of how few people on FB understand what they bought on spur of moment. 

But a few of us Tuggers still try and help those that want to listen. Many do not, and bash us as being anti-Vistana, working for Vistana (which makes zero sense), or anti-TUG (like it is some scheme).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mowogo

kozykritter said:


> Should they charge them a bunch of junk fees like Marriott does for point resales before they consider them to be qualified?



Junk fees, but still makes them a steal compared to buying developer.  And with some costs I’ve seen, resale is still reasonable and good for stepping up ownership.


----------



## DavidnRobin

CPNY said:


> I called Vistana and told them to make sure your account gets Timed out as punishment for not giving me a WSJ unit HAHAH



LOL
Has anyone been successful at booking WKORV and not getting Timed out?

btw - as I think I mentioned - our WSJ neighbor is thinking about relinquishing their 2 weeks (23-24, B31, Sat-Sat). I can put you in contact with them.
Unlike me - they will probably want some compensation (looks like I should have sold vs. giving away), but probably not that much as they bought resale in 2012 at much less than we paid (pre-recession).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CPNY

DavidnRobin said:


> LOL
> Has anyone been successful at booking WKORV and not getting Timed out?
> 
> btw - as I think I mentioned - our WSJ neighbor is thinking about relinquishing their 2 weeks (23-24, B31, Sat-Sat). I can put you in contact with them.
> Unlike me - they will probably want some compensation (looks like I should have sold vs. giving away), but probably not that much as they bought resale in 2012.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes def!

Ive been checking reservation system and it seems that the only resort I don’t get timed Out on is Harborside. I’ve tried others and if times out. I’m wondering if it has to do with the whole marriott reservation system linkage. We know Harborside won’t be linked to the hotel side so this could be why it comes back with reservations quickly. Yet the others time out. I think it’s between the hotel system linkage and/or the vacation club conversion. Of course I’m not a tech guy and I am just speculating.


----------



## dsmrp

DavidnRobin said:


> OF WKORV/N is not part of Westin Flex - another reason OF resale seems to be increasing.
> 
> I have no luck in reserving our OF WKORV - just getting timed out. None of our other resort weeks are getting timed out.
> They better resolve this soon.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



As I posted on another thread about website issues, I kept getting timed out too.
I called CS and they made my reservation for me (I was just trying to tack on another day, and also trying to use up banked options expiring this year).
What was really nice is that Vistana had instituted a call back program, so I didn't have to wait on interminable hold for an hour.  A rep called me back in less than 30 minutes.  They might have had the call back option a long time ago, I just rarely call CS. 

The rep said they were having some delays in their searches too, but I thought since they were call center staff, Vistana IT might have given their workstations/subnets higher priority.


----------



## pchung6

DavidnRobin said:


> LOL
> Has anyone been successful at booking WKORV and not getting Timed out?
> 
> btw - as I think I mentioned - our WSJ neighbor is thinking about relinquishing their 2 weeks (23-24, B31, Sat-Sat). I can put you in contact with them.
> Unlike me - they will probably want some compensation (looks like I should have sold vs. giving away), but probably not that much as they bought resale in 2012 at much less than we paid (pre-recession).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I called and complained big time last week. I asked to escalate to someone can make decision and demanded an explanation. They finally gave me 5 days thanksgiving week Oceanview Sunday to Friday. I asked for 7 nights, at least I got something.


----------



## CVC

VacationForever said:


> Post 654
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
> 
> 
> Depending on the exchange rate, there may be VSN resort/unit that someone may want to secure 13 months out instead of 8 months.  True
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com


Are these new charts available anywhere other than an update?  We are trying to find out any information about Nanae


CPNY said:


> I look at Facebook groups as high school and TUG as graduate work. I’m of the belief that the Facebook crowd just needs to learn. It’s not their fault. Everyone has a Facebook account and CAN join a group because they own a timeshare. They come in uneducated and disgruntled because lets not forget, they were lied to by a sales rep at one point.
> 
> People who WANT to learn come to TUG and put the effort in. I was one of those disgruntled Facebook people at one point. I finally joined TUG (years too late to rescind my developer purchases unfortunately) and learned a bit more about what I bought into. I came to TUG with the same disgruntled attitude I had on Facebook and learned rather quickly that it’s not the same here. I had a choice to make, either shape up and learn or ship out. Well, as I’m sure some wish I shipped out, I didn’t. I went from a one week PO’d owner to owning 5 weeks in different systems…..( thanks TUG for my new obsession/hobby).
> 
> I feel we as educated owners need to give back and bring more FB owners to our side. Stop looking at FB as the poor uneducated masses we want to ignore and try our best to educate them. I always advocate for owners to join TUG in every FB TS group I’m in. I love when owners understand how to use their ownerships and go from PO’d to actually making what they own work for them.
> 
> In conclusion: Be Kind, Rewind


I've come to quite admire and respect you on FB; I appreciate your knowledge and your attitude when you bring the information to those who may not be as educated, sadly.  But I'm surprised at the attitude of others on here with the condemning and grouping those on FB with the adjectives used.  I've come here to learn but not to be demeaned by others who they think know better or more.  It's now eye opening.


----------



## TravelTime

pchung6 said:


> I don’t want to join even it is free. Hope other owners can see the same as me, so we can keep VSN alive as long as possible. I’m thinking to buy another WKORVN OF, but the price has gone up insane recently.



How much is it now? By how much has it gone up? This is good to know.


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> Most people on here probably are old enough to remember and probably also used IRC (Internet Relay Chat)  - I doubt the same can be said for Facebook....
> 
> I don't even have a Facebook account.


I certainly remember IRC, but as mentioned that was popular in the mid 90s.

I resisted a Facebook account for a long time, but started one at one point. I am certainly not active on there from a personal level and I made the mistake of friending my wife. A mistake only because I had a whole bunch of family members open friend requests. I ignored them all LOL. I mainly use it to interact with Facebook groups and also a page related to my YouTube channel. Now YouTube, that is a place where we need more channels! I can count on one hand the number of active timeshare channels.



daviator said:


> I always wondered, because of its name, if TUG perhaps went back that far.


As I understand, after paper flyers TUG started out, online, on Prodigy. @TUGBrian should be able to provide more details.


----------



## Venter

kozykritter said:


> Another question is how would II work if you enroll your ownership into the DC. Right now we all have Vistana corporate Ii accounts and enrolling into the DC would give us also Marriott corporate Ii accounts. Would they remain two separate accounts or are they planning to somehow use one master account for ownership in both programs? I have my Vistana one upgraded to platinum so if they're separate would you have to upgrade two accounts? So many questions.. Marriott please give us real details now


Not really a problem. You will have a new account.  You will be prorated a refund for the years you have not used the platinum membership.  This happened to me when I moved to DC.


----------



## Mowogo

dioxide45 said:


> Now YouTube, that is a place where we need more channels! I can count on one hand the number of active timeshare channels.
> 
> 
> As I understand, after paper flyers TUG started out, online, on Prodigy. @TUGBrian should be able to provide more details.


Youtube, and blogs.  There are tons of miles and points blogs and sites that help people maximize their travel while documenting some of it, and in many ways timeshares are just an extension of the travel philosophies.  Look for the deals, and find the way to take advantage of them.  There is a lot of information here, but it is found through digging.  That is actually off putting to a lot of people who are used to the availability of information about flights and hotels.  I think a concerted group of members from here could really launch such an initiative to really bring the information that has been gathered over the years into a more newbie friendly formatting.  Forums have generally been the land of the wonks, but to really engage the next generation that timeshares are valuable it is time to provide new guide points.


----------



## Venter

dioxide45 said:


> This would be the easiest way to handle it. Otherwise you may have an owner that has a mandatory (unqualified) and a developer purchase or requalified/retroed VOI that could end up paying both fees. The DC Fee for the VOIs that they can enroll and the VOIs that they can't. They would then potentially also need to have two II accounts. One for the enrolled VOis and another for just the pure VSN VOIs. Imagine someone owning a mandatory unqualified, a developer VOI and a vulutanary VOI. They could end up with three II accounts in the end.


Why not. Just like we advise people about possible extra fees when buying resale like lock of, II exchange or II membership this will just be another consideration to make for anybody buying resale or in this case if they think it is financially advantaged to qualify.

Incidentally, I only own only voluntary weeks and points so I actually pay no VSN fee.  So this is arbitrary to me as I already have extra accounts outside of my DC II account (for which I pay a club fee).  I think everybody is just getting their knickers in a twist about things because they feel hard done by even though they don't have to change if they don't want to. Reality is Vistana was bought out because they were not such sharks like Marriott but considered their owners.

People the choice is simple. Keep what you have and continue as always or fall in line with whatever the new rules allow i.e. one club fee if you are qualified, extra fees if you have resorts outside, skim, election dates, no housekeeping fees(probably covered by skim) etc. etc. etc 
Or....become part of the club by enrolling, requalifying or whatever and have more choice and possibilities (with increased complexity of consideration on how to use this to your advantage).

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.


----------



## pchung6

TravelTime said:


> How much is it now? By how much has it gone up? This is good to know.


I checked redweek and asked Syed few months ago. The cheapest we can find for WKORVN OF was around $25-26k. This was $15-18k 5 yrs ago. I heard price is even higher months later.


----------



## TravelTime

pchung6 said:


> I checked redweek and asked Syed few months ago. The cheapest we can find for WKORVN OF was around $25-26k. This was $15-18k 5 yrs ago. I heard price is even higher months later.



This does not seem accurate in terms of the price change. The EOY has always been around $12K to $14K for the last 5 years at least. It is slightly higher now but not by much. I own EOY at WKOVRN OF. The annual has been over $20K for years.


----------



## pchung6

TravelTime said:


> This does not seem accurate in terms of the price change. The EOY has always been around $12K to $14K for the last 5 years at least. It is slightly higher now but not by much. I own EOY at WKOVRN OF. The annual has been over $20K for years.


I bought mine for $14k in 2018 at bargain basement price. I'm looking to buy another one for $20k for a while, just couldn't find any. The cheapest one I found was $26k few months ago which I passed.


----------



## TravelTime

pchung6 said:


> I bought mine for $14k in 2018 at bargain basement price. I'm looking to buy another one for $20k for a while, just couldn't find any. The cheapest one I found was $26k few months ago which I passed.



Are you saying you bought an annual WKOVRN 2 BR ocean front for $14,000? If so, that was well below the market price in 2018. I bought my EOY for about $12,000 in 2018, I think.


----------



## pchung6

TravelTime said:


> Are you saying you bought an annual WKOVRN 2 BR ocean front for $14,000? If so, that was well below the market price in 2018. I bought my EOY for about $12,000 in 2018, I think.


Yes, that's correct. It's annual 2Br OF. After closing, it was close to $15k. I searched it for a while and found this broker probably didn't know between OV and OF on ebay. If I can find another one for 20k if possible, I would be thinking hard to make another purchase. Probably it won't pass ROFR at current environment as Marriott might want to build their Maui inventory.


----------



## TravelTime

pchung6 said:


> I bought mine for $14k in 2018 at bargain basement price. I'm looking to buy another one for $20k for a while, just couldn't find any. The cheapest one I found was $26k few months ago which I passed.



You got an incredible deal but it is not accurate to say prices have gone up just because you got a bargain basement price. Prices are about the same as the past.


----------



## DavidnRobin

pchung6 said:


> Yes, that's correct. It's annual 2Br OF. After closing, it was close to $15k. I searched it for a while and found this broker probably didn't know between OV and OF on ebay. If I can find another one for 20k if possible, I would be thinking hard to make another purchase. Probably it won't pass ROFR at current environment as Marriott might want to build their Maui inventory.



A WKORVN OF at $15K passed ROFR?
hmmmm….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> As I understand, after paper flyers TUG started out, online, on Prodigy. @TUGBrian should be able to provide more details.



Prodigy…. Now THAT takes me back. Hadn't thought about Prodigy in a LONG time.  I’m reminded of a tactic I used to use, back in the Prodigy days, that nearly always got me first class upgrades on AA, my airline of choice back in the 90s.  Those were the days…


----------



## regatta333

Presumably, 4* Elite Vistana will be Presidential in the combined system, according to what we're being told.  What happens if your underlying deeds get you to 4* in Vistana, but do not quite convert to the 10,000 DC point threshold for Presidential on the Marriott side?

For example, 2 Kierland 2BD and 1 Kierland small 1BD platinum weeks are worth 363,300 options (clearing the 359,000 point threshold for 4* in Vistana).
However, these options will only convert to 9,935 DC points.  How will this be handled since it doesn't clear the threshold for Presidential on the Marriott side?


----------



## TUGBrian

ive certainly considered hosting a monthly zoom or twitch meeting/etc for tuggers to chat about things...or to read / discuss some of the more creative emails or questions we get here at TUG on a regular basis to begin adding more youtube content.


----------



## dioxide45

regatta333 said:


> Presumably, 4* Elite Vistana will be Presidential in the combined system, according to what we're being told.  What happens if your underlying deeds get you to 4* in Vistana, but do not quite convert to the 10,000 DC point threshold for Presidential on the Marriott side?
> 
> For example, 2 Kierland 2BD and 1 Kierland small 1BD platinum weeks are worth 363,300 options (clearing the 359,000 point threshold for 4* in Vistana).
> However, these options will only convert to 9,935 DC points.  How will this be handled since it doesn't clear the threshold for Presidential on the Marriott side?


It seems they will be using grandfathering to keep an owner with that type of situation at the higher level. They do this today with Marriott. They have modified the ownership tiers and there are people with not enough points that were grandfathered into a higher tier.


----------



## DanCali

pchung6 said:


> I checked redweek and asked Syed few months ago. The cheapest we can find for WKORVN OF was around $25-26k. This was $15-18k 5 yrs ago. I heard price is even higher months later.




Assuming you can rent it for $X over maintenance fees every year, how many years would it take you to pay back that $25K?


----------



## Eric B

DanCali said:


> Assuming you can rent it for $X over maintenance fees every year, how many years would it take you to pay back that $25K?



T in years = 25,000/X, ignoring the time value of money.  It's probably reasonable to ignore time value of money as it could be offset by inflation.


----------



## CPNY

CVC said:


> Are these new charts available anywhere other than an update?  We are trying to find out any information about Nanae
> 
> I've come to quite admire and respect you on FB; I appreciate your knowledge and your attitude when you bring the information to those who may not be as educated, sadly.  But I'm surprised at the attitude of others on here with the condemning and grouping those on FB with the adjectives used.  I've come here to learn but not to be demeaned by others who they think know better or more.  It's now eye opening.


Thank you!


----------



## SueDonJ

_*Moderator Note*: Several posts have been reported because they're related to the issues here: Vistana website booking challenges. I've moved three posts but stopped there because the later ones include info related to this thread, too. Gah, my head is getting ready to bonk itself off the desk!

Both issues are important but it'll be awful if Denise has to come back and clean up after all of us, including me who's getting a crash course in all things Vistana!, so think of this as one of her "gentle reminders" to try to keep this thread on track. 

And if you're having difficulty with the website booking system, please post in that other thread so that any Marriott eyes on it (which I'd guess IS happening) will have all of the data in one place. Thanks! _


----------



## VacationForever

CVC said:


> Are these new charts available anywhere other than an update?  We are trying to find out any information about Nanae.


Nope.  So are the rest of us.  For anything official, we will have to wait until the summer.


----------



## sharr7

It's a long shot but has anyone tried to go through the "Chat with Us" bot on Vistana to get to a real person and then see if they'd offer a DC conversion rate for your weeks owned and any other details they could offer? The numbers seem to be published in our "files" that sales has obviously.


----------



## VacationForever

sharr7 said:


> It's a long shot but has anyone tried to go through the "Chat with Us" bot on Vistana to get to a real person and then see if they'd offer a DC conversion rate for your weeks owned and any other details they could offer? The numbers seem to be published in our "files" that sales has obviously.


Based on one of the postings above, with the white-out "un-"Authorized, I suspect that it is not in our "files", but rather salespeople put together spreadsheets/charts on their own for each person going through owners update.


----------



## sharr7

Yeah I just tried (actually got through fairly quickly), but just got the company line about how they're excited to make a big announcement sometime this summer. But nothing to share right now. 

I guess owner updates (and clandestine sources) are the only place to get information that may be accurate. Frustrating.


----------



## Nick66

VacationForever said:


> Based on one of the postings above, with the white-out "un-"Authorized, I suspect that it is not in our "files", but rather salespeople put together spreadsheets/charts on their own for each person going through owners update.


I was talking to elite owner services yesterday and I asked about getting more information. The fellow I talked to said they have nothing and we need to get info from sales. I asked if he can put me in touch with someone in sales and he told me that due to where I live (Canada) they are not legally allowed to contact me. So I will continue to get what I can from all of you fellow TUGgers who are attending presentations! So thank you all!


----------



## dioxide45

Nick66 said:


> I was talking to elite owner services yesterday and I asked about getting more information. The fellow I talked to said they have nothing and we need to get info from sales. I asked if he can put me in touch with someone in sales and he told me that due to where I live (Canada) they are not legally allowed to contact me. So I will continue to get what I can from all of you fellow TUGgers who are attending presentations! So thank you all!


Sadly this is how all timeshare outfits operate. They only provide information and pricing in a sales environment. Rarely will they let you walk out the door of the sale office with even a scrap of paper. People have to sneak photos while the salesperson is away. If you asked to take a photo or be able to record the sales meeting, they would ask you to leave. They don't want the information out there because under hard scrutiny, the numbers fall apart. So they use the information to make an uninformed sale based on one sided numbers that look good in the moment.


----------



## jabberwocky

VacationForever said:


> Based on one of the postings above, with the white-out "un-"Authorized, I suspect that it is not in our "files", but rather salespeople put together spreadsheets/charts on their own for each person going through owners update.


I suspect only sales have access to it at this time.  My salesperson earlier this week said they had just been given access to the new conversion tool on Tuesday morning.  He went and printed ours off - but only when I requested.  So I do think it is a standard tool they now can use.  He didn't alter it or try to make up a story about our resale mandatory unit.  He did say that when the system went live the same information would be available in the Vistana dashboard.

Just as an aside, on our sheet, the retroed unit and developer purchased units we own also showed as "Un-Authorized".  Not sure why this is, but they did show up as a "SALE" in the other column.


----------



## vacation dreaming

Just finished my sales presentation at Marriott - I was told I need to buy 1,000 DPs to enroll my Maui OF Westin which was bought by developer 18 years ago. No automatic enrollment.


----------



## dioxide45

vacation dreaming said:


> Just finished my sales presentation at Marriott - I was told I need to buy 1,000 DPs to enroll my Maui OF Westin which was bought by developer 18 years ago. No automatic enrollment.


Wait it out until an official announcement. If you bought developer, I suspect you will be able to use it without an additional purchase.


----------



## CPNY

vacation dreaming said:


> Just finished my sales presentation at Marriott - I was told I need to buy 1,000 DPs to enroll my Maui OF Westin which was bought by developer 18 years ago. No automatic enrollment.


That’s a lie to get you to buy more points Which won’t work. But then again, they aren’t worried about savvy timeshare owners on TUG saying no and walking out. They have plenty of unsuspecting owners walking into owners updates daily ready to give back their ownership because a quick talking sales rep flapping his lips telling owners their ownerships are “outdated”. They confuse and lie to owners and before they know it, they are signing on the dotted line for another $20,000 mortgage. They don’t even know they can rescind the purchase when they walk out of the door.  Marriott sales reps are absolutely worse than Westgate reps.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> Wait it out until an official announcement. If you bought developer, I suspect you will be able to use it without an additional purchase.


There is certainly the expected split between Marriott sales and Vistana sales when it comes to the merger. Marriott says no access without buying more points because that's what they  sell. Vistana says access without a fee so buy more options and retro all your resales or get yourself to the next elite level. Unsurprising ;-)


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Which won’t work.


It probably works on some people.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> It probably works on some people.


True, but I’d hope not that many


----------



## Sicnarf

kozykritter said:


> There is certainly the expected split between Marriott sales and Vistana sales when it comes to the merger. Marriott says no access without buying more points because that's what they  sell. Vistana says access without a fee so buy more options and retro all your resales or get yourself to the next elite level. Unsurprising ;-)


Not all MVC sales.  The spiel I got was exactly the same as Vistana sales but the rationale for DC points purchase is to get access to DC Trust in addition to DC Exchange.


----------



## CPNY

Sicnarf said:


> Not all MVC sales.  The spiel I got was exactly the same as Vistana sales but the rationale for DC points purchase is to get access to DC Trust in addition to DC Exchange.


At what point does the DC trust inventory get filtered into the DC exchange? Layers upon layers that many vistana owners will have to understand when electing to convert.


----------



## catharsis

vacation dreaming said:


> Just finished my sales presentation at Marriott - I was told I need to buy 1,000 DPs to enroll my Maui OF Westin which was bought by developer 18 years ago. No automatic enrollment.


I strongly suspect if you had done a presentation at Westin instead you'd have been told it was free - but that you should add flex because of <insert reason here> while you still can!

I have a very strongly-asserted statement (although not in writing) from two people at a recent update at WRF that developer weeks will be enrolled free. we also have DeniseM's thread confirming this.    However that is all coming from the Vistana side, I suspect Marriott side still just want to sell points and have no incentive to enrol existing Vistana weeks, so just try to sell you DC points with FUD.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> At what point does the DC trust inventory get filtered into the DC exchange? Layers upon layers that many vistana owners will have to understand when electing to convert.


From what we can tell, DC Trust inventory gets dumped into the MVC Exchange Company very early. Perhaps it never sits there for trust bookings at all and is only available for MVC Exchange. We don't really know the actual answer to this because MVC won't share it with us. We can only go by reports made by people that own and make reservations with DC Trust points, the reservation confirmation emails indicate if it was trust or exchange inventory and everyone's emails within the past few years all indicate inventory is coming from the MVC Exchange inventory.


----------



## vvZODvv

Just did the owner's update at WKV.  I can confirm 2 bed Platinum would convert to 4050 DCs.  Can also confirm resale units do not automatically get enrolled in the program.  It requires a $10,000 purchase of some sort.  Our guy didn't want to sell DC points (said that was not available to do until summer) but instead wanted to sell WKV or Nanea (for much more than 10K) which would retro our week.  

He was adamant that the the 4050 our week would convert to would be the rental cost and that there was no skim. When I offered to show him the pictures of the Marriott brochure showing otherwise he declared the sales update over.


----------



## pchung6

vvZODvv said:


> Just did the owner's update at WKV.  I can confirm 2 bed Platinum would convert to 4050 DCs.  Can also confirm resale units do not automatically get enrolled in the program.  It requires a $10,000 purchase of some sort.  Our guy didn't want to sell DC points (said that was not available to do until summer) but instead wanted to sell WKV or Nanea (for much more than 10K) which would retro our week.


May I ask what they tried to sell Nanea, is it pts or deeded week? How much they asked for Nanea?


----------



## MICROZE

vacation dreaming said:


> Just finished my sales presentation at Marriott - I was told I need to buy 1,000 DPs to enroll my Maui OF Westin which was bought by developer 18 years ago. No automatic enrollment.


This is exactly what we were told at multiple Sales-Presentations [Vistana & Marriott].

When I asked *"why should Vistana-Owners who purchased direct [Developer-Units] have to pay"?*
We were told that Marriott did not merge with Vistana. Marriott purchased ILG for many millions of $$$ and Vistana-Owners [Developer/Resale Mandatory/Voluntary] would have to PURCHASE [not just pay an Enrollment-Fee] for the privilege of being able to access the Marriott-Resorts.

This is the justification they used last October to sell us a Hybrid-Package [Week + DCP that worked out to ~$6.90/DCP] with the assurance that the package would count toward the requirement to Enroll our Vistana-Units [Developer or Qualified ONLY] and thus we would not need to pay anything more for our Vistana-Units to participate in the new system.

Vistana-Sale [Corp] reconfirmed that this will be the same requirement on their end.
I have these in writing [at least in email response form].


----------



## vvZODvv

pchung6 said:


> May I ask what they tried to sell Nanea, is it pts or deeded week? How much they asked for Nanea?


We have little interest in Nanea so I don't recall the specifics ... he was selling it as points.  The small side Platinum WKV he was selling for 17K.


----------



## MICROZE

vvZODvv said:


> We have little interest in Nanea so I don't recall the specifics ... he was selling it as points.  The small side Platinum WKV he was selling for 17K.


Wow. $17K for WKV [assuming PLAT+ 67100]. That's high.
We purchased 6 x 2BR-EY WKV-Platinum+ [148.1K] for an average of ~$12K [some for $10K and some of $13K/$14K].
These have risen a little since last year [even saw one go for $8K] on RedWeek. Current listings [if you can find one] on RedWeek seem to be pushing $20K.


----------



## pchung6

vvZODvv said:


> We have little interest in Nanea so I don't recall the specifics ... he was selling it as points.  The small side Platinum WKV he was selling for 17K.


17k for Platinum+ WKV small 1br is too high. 2br WKV can be found at that price. All the information we have so far lead me to believe every Vistana owner has to purchase something in order to participate. I think the amount won't be too high, I'm guessing it will be around $10k for Flex or DC pts.


----------



## Pathways

pchung6 said:


> 17k for Platinum+ WKV small 1br is too high. 2br WKV can be found at that price



17k is a direct price which also pays for 2 weeks to be retro - please share where I can get a 2br WKV plat at that price that can accomplish that?


----------



## vvZODvv

pchung6 said:


> I'm guessing it will be around $10k for Flex or DC pts.


If you believe what the salesman said, yes that's correct.  He said a $10,000 purchase (regardless of what the product was) would qualify the resale week.  I was just surprised that DC points weren't avail for sale.


----------



## pchung6

Pathways said:


> 17k is a direct price which also pays for 2 weeks to be retro - please share where I can get a 2br WKV plat at that price that can accomplish that?


If your goal is to retro, by all mean, WKV platinum+ week is good choice. You don't lose that much value from the developer week. You should be able to find 2br WKV on redweek or ebay at this price range constantly.


----------



## vvZODvv

vvZODvv said:


> If you believe what the salesman said, yes that's correct.  He said a $10,000 purchase (regardless of what the product was) would qualify the resale week.  I was just surprised that DC points weren't avail for sale.


And there's the rub, you have to decide if paying an extra $9-10K over resale prices to play in the Marriott is worth it.
Edit:  grr, sorry for quoting myself.  I hate typing on my phone.  I was trying to reply to pchung directly above.


----------



## Pathways

pchung6 said:


> If your goal is to retro, by all mean, WKV platinum+ week is good choice. You don't lose that much value from the developer week. You should be able to find 2br WKV on redweek or ebay at this price range constantly.


17K for a resale should be easy.  But the poster was being quoted a price to retro a week, and also 'qualify' for the DP program. That has a whole different value to consider.


----------



## pchung6

Pathways said:


> 17K for a resale should be easy.  But the poster was being quoted a price to retro a week, and also 'qualify' for the DP program. That has a whole different value to consider.


Totally agree. Resale value for small 1br WKV 67k should be around $7k. You will lose about 10k from the moment you sign. Or you can buy $10k worth of Flex, and the resale value will be almost $0. And you don't get 67k pts with good MF ratio. For me, I probably go for $17k WKV if my goal is to retro.


----------



## daviator

pchung6 said:


> May I ask what they tried to sell Nanea, is it pts or deeded week? How much they asked for Nanea?


There are no deeded weeks at Nanea.  I think there are only Nanea HomeOptions and Westin Flex.


----------



## ocdb8r

Is there any chance of getting a sticky made for the top of this thread, where we can add links to the most relevant posts (like those with the points charts and those with what the points values of electing DP will be)?  I've been following, but there's been such an explosion of information, I'm struggling to pull out the substantive stuff when I come back here for reference.


----------



## regatta333

Pathways said:


> 17k is a direct price which also pays for 2 weeks to be retro - please share where I can get a 2br WKV plat at that price that can accomplish that?



I believe that 17K was for an EOY platinum small 1bd at WKV.  The EY goes for $28K.  We have been working with a salesperson there to get our two weeks retroed.


----------



## vvZODvv

regatta333 said:


> I believe that 17K was for an EOY platinum small 1bd at WKV.  The EY goes for $28K.  We have been working with a salesperson there to get our two weeks retroed.


I suspect you are correct.  The annual 2bed Plat was offered at a 20% discount for ~$62K, so 17K for EOY makes more sense for their pricing.  He just managed to gloss over the EOY part and I missed it.


----------



## MICROZE

regatta333 said:


> I believe that 17K was for an EOY platinum small 1bd at WKV.  The EY goes for $28K.  We have been working with a salesperson there to get our two weeks retroed.


Being able to do a retro by purchasing a WKV-Deeded-Week is always a better route [Lower-MF + Better-Resale-Value] than purchasing anything FLEX.

However, if you are only getting 2-Weeks retro'd you are overspending. You need only spend $15K to retro 2-Contracts.
For $30K you could retro 5-Contracts [e.g. 5 x 2BR-EY-PLAT+ worth ~750K-SO].


----------



## CPNY

MICROZE said:


> This is exactly what we were told at multiple Sales-Presentations [Vistana & Marriott].
> 
> When I asked *"why should Vistana-Owners who purchased direct [Developer-Units] have to pay"?*
> We were told that Marriott did not merge with Vistana. Marriott purchased ILG for many millions of $$$ and Vistana-Owners [Developer/Resale Mandatory/Voluntary] would have to PURCHASE [not just pay an Enrollment-Fee] for the privilege of being able to access the Marriott-Resorts.
> 
> This is the justification they used last October to sell us a Hybrid-Package [Week + DCP that worked out to ~$6.90/DCP] with the assurance that the package would count toward the requirement to Enroll our Vistana-Units [Developer or Qualified ONLY] and thus we would not need to pay anything more for our Vistana-Units to participate in the new system.
> 
> Vistana-Sale [Corp] reconfirmed that this will be the same requirement on their end.
> I have these in writing [at least in email response form].


Interesting, I guess self proclaimed “Marriott snobs” as one Marriott vacation worldwide sales rep put it, have a sense of entitlement and privilege. We’ve heard time and time again “this wasn’t a merger it was an acquisition and vistana people should have to pay”. It’s 2022….. I thought we were doing away with the whole privilege and entitlement thing……


----------



## VacationForever

CPNY said:


> Interesting, I guess self proclaimed Marriott snobs as one Marriott vacation worldwide put it, have a sense of entitlement and privilege. We’ve heard time and time again “this wasn’t a merger it was an acquisition and vistana people should have to pay”. It’s 2022….. I thought we were doing away with the whole privilege and entitlement thing……


"Some are more equal than others." - George Orwell


----------



## CPNY

MICROZE said:


> Wow. $17K for WKV [assuming PLAT+ 67100]. That's high.
> We purchased 6 x 2BR-EY WKV-Platinum+ [148.1K] for an average of ~$12K [some for $10K and some of $13K/$14K].
> These have risen a little since last year [even saw one go for $8K] on RedWeek. Current listings [if you can find one] on RedWeek seem to be pushing $20K.


It didn’t close for 8, it was listed for 8 but closed close to 12. I was part of that bidding war. Also the 20K units are being inflated by old WKV sales reps who have a corner on the market with their own resale business. I suspect they are picking off owners and buying the units then reselling them. They are actually buying, and transferring to their account then selling, not brokering a deal. It’s genius. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are asking people if they want out and offering a way out by taking their ownerships and then reselling.


----------



## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> "Some are more equal than others." - George Orwell


that’s a fact. Starwood was better, Marriott just had more money. Can’t beat ‘em, take them over and bring them down.


----------



## VacationForever

CPNY said:


> that’s a fact. Starwood was better, Marriott just had more money. Can’t beat ‘em, take them over and bring them down.


I have been a long time loyalist (hotel) of Westin and Marriott when I was travelling for business, I have always liked both equally, and that extends to timeshare.  I don't think one is better than the other.  Marriott is certainly more aggressive for its shareholders and bottom line.


----------



## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> I have been a long time loyalist (hotel) of Westin and Marriott when I was travelling for business, I have always liked both equally, and that extends to timeshare.  I don't think one is better than the other.  Marriott is certainly more aggressive for its shareholders and bottom line.


I’d agree with that, they only care about the bottom line. I think this is why most people generally liked Starwood. I felt much more valued as a guest at a Starwood hotel without status than I’ve ever felt at a Marriott hotel with my titanium status. It seems the owners and sales reps of the marriott vacation club also have that same sentiment. “It doesn’t matter if you bought from some company years ago, we bought that company so now you have to pay us! But we get to take your weeks because we own you”….. well, I’m just glad I own in Florida and can walk away at any time I want.

with that being said, I’d rather stay at a Bonvoy branded hotel vs another brand with the exception of Hyatt. Same goes for Vistana and Marriott vacation club resorts.


----------



## regatta333

MICROZE said:


> However, if you are only getting 2-Weeks retro'd you are overspending. You need only spend $15K to retro 2-Contracts.
> For $30K you could retro 5-Contracts [e.g. 5 x 2BR-EY-PLAT+ worth ~750K-SO].



Yes, painfully aware.  I wish we had had another Kierland 2BD platinum to retro, but I did not think I'd be able to acquire one resale and close on it before the hard launch.  I was still of half a mind to try to do it and wait and see what shook out, but my husband said to just pull the trigger now.  There were very few Kierland weeks in their inventory for resale and they were going quickly.  They are also one of the few sites that can still sell these deeds because they are a portfolio site.  We were close to doing a deal with a sales rep we had toured with at Sheraton Broadway Plantation.  It was for the same number of points in Westin Flex, with the maintenance being almost double what it is for the Kierland small 1BD.  I asked her if she could sell us a Kierland platinum deed for the small 1BD and she said they are not able to sell the deeded properties, only Flex.  Ultimately, I was not really keen on purchasing the Flex product, especially with the higher maintenance.

This purchase gets us to 4*, which will be Presidential in Marriott, even though it only converts to 9,935 DC points.  A lot of things factored into our decision:
1.  Two sets of grandkids are getting older and this will give us more flexibility and variety in booking summer vacations on the East coast, where Vistana does not have many choices.  Certainly, there will not be any new Vistana locations, whereas Marriott may continue to add resorts.
2.  My son has expressed an interest in inheriting the Marriott ownership, and he will also have the added flexibility and benefits.
3.  Keeping our options open if VSN inventory dries up at some point in the future.
4.  Probably our one shot of getting the Presidential status, which does have some value to us.

They also included the option to purchase 6 Marriott Bonvoy Points promo certificates in the next two years ($2,275 per certificate, which gets you 330 K Bonvoy points).  I doubt we will take advantage of this, since we don't really see the value.

I do agree with a previous poster that the attitude of some of the sales people is very offputting.  We don't typically attend Owner Updates, but have been doing so for the past year or so to try to get information about the rollout of the combined program.  Last year, at Ko'Olina, I asked about whether they would be getting rid of the exchange fee Vistana owners had to pay in II, which did not seem fair since Marriott owners got to exchange into Vistana for free.  The sales rep stated that Marriott had acquired Vistana, not vice versa, and implied that we should be thrilled by the opportunity to stay at Marriott properties.
After that statement, I would NEVER have bought anything from him, even had he had a great deal to offer, which he did not.


----------



## Ken555

I’ve been traveling and mostly avoiding TUG over the last few weeks (amazing how relaxing that can be) and I’ve now tried to catch up on these various threads about the future of our ownerships. And… I see nothing from Marriott. I read many posts about the “soft” launch here and from other sources and yet…nothing official. Nothing from Marriott. It’s just amazing they have been able to convince so many without anything in writing and I’m sure they’ve had great sales. 

If anything based what I’ve read so far, and unless I missed something, the info would not (yet) deter me from buying another mandatory week. For myself, that’s the most important question I have. Sure, inventory may reduce over time as more and more weeks get converted but I expect that won’t become an issue for many years.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TUGBrian

I thought i had read about new/updated/official information about the merger?  if that is the case can someone point me to where that post starts?

id like to include it in the newsletter today if so.


----------



## winelarry

Has anyone been approached to upgrade Vistana membership adding the Marriott Vacation Club at a discount to cost once the merger is finalized?


----------



## dioxide45

TUGBrian said:


> I thought i had read about new/updated/official information about the merger?  if that is the case can someone point me to where that post starts?
> 
> id like to include it in the newsletter today if so.


No official announcement. Everything is just coming out of sales. Sales apparently has the official information.


----------



## TUGBrian

is there a post in this megathread that lists something new that would be worth putting in the newsletter for owners to read?

or no?


----------



## jabberwocky

One or two of us. 

There is a lengthy thread on this topic. Hopefully a mod can move it there.


----------



## TUGBrian

ok, well perhaps next weeks newsletter then.


----------



## TravelTime

TUGBrian said:


> is there a post in this megathread that lists something new that would be worth putting in the newsletter for owners to read?
> 
> or no?



It is all speculation so until there are facts in writing, no need to move to a new thread.

Maybe if there is a more narrow question to discuss about the potential Vistana/MVC integration, that could be a new thread. But it will still be speculation.

An interesting thread might be a new one with a survey question of choices of people prefer. Some answers could be.

-Stay the same (no MVC integration)
-Allow only qualified Vistana owners to elect DPs
-Allow all Vistana resale owners to elect DPs with no fee or low fee
-Other

Then people could post why they chose their answer and related comments to this question.

The answers to this question would interest me.


----------



## jabberwocky

TUGBrian said:


> is there a post in this megathread that lists something new that would be worth putting in the newsletter for owners to read?
> 
> or no?


There is a lot of speculation. The points charts have not been released for wide distribution, but they do have the Marriott DC charts that are now available in owners updates. I believe my post on Tuesday was the first to report an actual photo of a chart. We also are apparently able to now see how many DC points out Vistana weeks are worth. 

There is still not any concrete information as to how resale weeks will be treated. Lots of speculation at this point.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> Interesting, I guess self proclaimed Marriott snobs as one Marriott vacation worldwide put it, have a sense of entitlement and privilege. We’ve heard time and time again “this wasn’t a merger it was an acquisition and vistana people should have to pay”. It’s 2022….. I thought we were doing away with the whole privilege and entitlement thing……



What is a self proclaimed Marriott snob? I own both a mandatory Vistana and MVC weeks and points. I paid to qualify my MVC resale weeks because I like the DP program. I would like the integration to allow me to elect DPs. Does that make me a snob?


----------



## TravelTime

If MVC sales people are saying to buy more points now, this makes no sense unless they will enroll my resale Vistana week now.


----------



## dioxide45

I think keeping this "speculation" thread going for now until we actually have solid, in writing, information available to all owners. Not just those that walk into a sales pitch.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> If MVC sales people are saying to buy more points now, this makes no sense unless they will enroll my resale Vistana week now.


I think Marriott sales telling people that if they buy DC points it will qualify a Vistana resale, but I have seen no proof of that. The only way to qualify a Vistana resale it to spend at least $10K on a Vistana product (week, or Flex) direct from Vistana.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> I have been a long time loyalist (hotel) of Westin and Marriott when I was travelling for business, I have always liked both equally, and that extends to timeshare.  I don't think one is better than the other.  Marriott is certainly more aggressive for its shareholders and bottom line.



I used to like Intercontinental hotels a lot. I liked their loyalty program. It was easy to get and use points. Many of their hotels are high end. I stayed in one in Cozumel and we got an oceanfront walkout room which was one of the nicest rooms in Cozumel, to me. I stayed at the Intercontinental/Presidente in Cancun and they gave me a room with balcony in their loyalty program section and it is on the best beach in Cancun. I also stayed in the Intercontinental in Chicago and it was very nice. Now, I only stay at Marriott owned hotels. Marriott has my loyalty now due to having Titanium status.


----------



## pchung6

As long time SPG royal member, I’ve noticed Marriott doesn’t really have the soft touches as SPG. Probably because Marriott is heavier bottom line driven vs SPG. The Westin hotel I stayed frequently for work, they used to know me very well. Since the merger, they no longer cared and I noticed much higher employees turnover. I’ve gradually moving my stay to Hilton, IHG and another Asian hotel chain. I’m just 2 more years away from Marriott lifetime platinum. I found my titanium tier is really useless, no upgrade in last 4 years for 80 business stays. I have to ask to access to lounge every time and they no longer offer me free beer/alcohol. I will most likely switch my business to competitors after that.


----------



## travelhacker

pchung6 said:


> As long time SPG royal member, I’ve noticed Marriott doesn’t really have the soft touches as SPG. Probably because Marriott is heavier bottom line driven vs SPG. The Westin hotel I stayed frequently for work, they used to know me very well. Since the merger, they no longer cared and I noticed much higher employees turnover. I’ve gradually moving my stay to Hilton, IHG and another Asian hotel chain. I’m just 2 more years away from Marriott lifetime platinum. I found my titanium tier is really useless, no upgrade in last 4 years for 80 business stays. I have to ask to access to lounge every time and they no longer offer me free beer/alcohol. I will most likely switch my business to competitors after that.


Off topic, but it came up. 

This is insane. It’s definitely time to move your stays to a brand that values you. 

I have explorist status with Hyatt (the equivalent of gold in bonvoy), and I get best room available and never have to ask. I’ve also been upgraded to suites even though explorist status isn’t eligible for suite upgrades. I also only earn about 20 nights a year. 

Heck they upgraded me to a suite that cost $1000 more per night on an award stay.

Hyatt isn’t perfect, but I am almost certain you can do better than Marriott.


----------



## GregT

jabberwocky said:


> View attachment 50383



This is a very interesting point chart -- I apologize if I'm repeating an observation already made in this thread, but I've not been keeping up with it as much as I historically would have.

When comparing it to the points chart for Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina and Napili Villas, there is approximately a 10% premium in points required to book the Westin than to book the Marriott.   I do not know if that is indicative of Marriott's view that Westin's are better than Marriott's, or Marriott's desire to give more points to Westin owners to entice them to redeem their weeks to book in the Marriott system.   If this pattern holds with other properties, then a Westin-based DC point is a little more powerful than a Marriott-based DC point.   The WKORV owner gets 8,325 points (I think) for their 2BR OF, whereas the MOC-L/N owner only gets 7,650, so the premium is 9% in Westin-based DC points for a fabulous 2BR OF unit.   Interesting.

Like Dioxide, I think inventory availability will remain pretty good in VSN for years to come.  There were the same concerns about II trading drying up when DC was introduced but I believe the II trading experience continues to be acceptable even to this day.  Uptrades are much harder to secure, but like-for-like still appears achievable.

I am looking forward to an actual announcement so that we can confirm some of these things!

Best,

Greg


----------



## GregT

jabberwocky said:


> View attachment 50389View attachment 50390


For the other Phoenix properties, WKV has a 30% premium over Marriott Canyon Villas in the prime season (Feb/Mar), but Canyon Villas has a 30% premium over SDO.   Looks like Marriott doesn't want to encourage the Sheraton properties to be in the system.   Will be curious to see how the Palm Springs area properties compare.

Interesting.

Best,

Greg


----------



## byeloe

GregT said:


> For the other Phoenix properties, WKV has a 30% premium over Marriott Canyon Villas in the prime season (Feb/Mar), but Canyon Villas has a 30% premium over SDO.   Looks like Marriott doesn't want to encourage the Sheraton properties to be in the system.   Will be curious to see how the Palm Springs area properties compare.
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


I think the numbers are what is required to book those properties.  The amount of points that you receive when you elect is less and not widely published at the moment.  I think 2bd plat WKV gets around 4050 and WLR around 4950


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> What is a self proclaimed Marriott snob? I own both a mandatory Vistana and MVC weeks and points. I paid to qualify my MVC resale weeks because I like the DP program. I would like the integration to allow me to elect DPs. Does that make me a snob?


It’s what a Marriott sales rep told me once. “You know Marriott owners pride themselves on being Marriott snobs because we have the best resorts”. That was her sales pitch. So I’ve been running with that ever since.


----------



## daviator

CPNY said:


> It’s what a Marriott sales rep told me once. “You know Marriott owners pride themselves on being Marriott snobs because we have the best resorts”. That was her sales pitch. So I’ve been running with that ever since.


And I think most of the Marriotts are tacky and at least one step below the Westins.  So to each his own!

You can keep your faux-pineapple lamps, etc. in the Hawaii properties, lol..


----------



## CPNY

daviator said:


> And I think most of the Marriotts are tacky and at least one step below the Westins.  So to each his own!
> 
> You can keep your faux-pineapple lamps, etc. in the Hawaii properties, lol..


Hah that’s hilarious, agreed


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> And I think most of the Marriotts are tacky and at least one step below the Westins.  So to each his own!
> 
> You can keep your faux-pineapple lamps, etc. in the Hawaii properties, lol..


I think Marriott has stepped up the decor in recent years with their more recent renovations. They do seem to be making an effort to make their villa product more consistent across resorts. Westin villas are very nice and the bathrooms are top notch. The kitchens however have a lot to be desired. Their provided cooking supplies and cooking utensils is just pitiful. Why no Rubbermaid containers for leftovers? Marriott outfits their kitchens much better IMO. To each their own I suppose. I will gladly stay in either...


----------



## kozykritter

I appreciate all the granite and contemporary touches where they have added them. Where MVC lets me down is with their studio units, the main size that I reserve. Vistana units regardless of size have a kitchen you can cook in and in-unit laundry, making them feel like a condo. MVC studios have no in-unit laundry and just a microwave and mini fridge like millions of hotel rooms across the country. While passable, it could be so much better.


----------



## rickandcindy23

dioxide45 said:


> I think Marriott has stepped up the decor in recent years with their more recent renovations. They do seem to be making an effort to make their villa product more consistent across resorts. Westin villas are very nice and the bathrooms are top notch. The kitchens however have a lot to be desired. Their provided cooking supplies and cooking utensils is just pitiful. Why no Rubbermaid containers for leftovers? Marriott outfits their kitchens much better IMO. To each their own I suppose. I will gladly stay in either...


Me too, but when it comes to buying Maui, I will go with Westin, but not until I see some website improvement.  I do love Westins on Maui, every one of them.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> I appreciate all the granite and contemporary touches where they have added them. Where MVC lets me down is with their studio units, the main size that I reserve. Vistana units regardless of size have a kitchen you can cook in and in-unit laundry, making them feel like a condo. MVC studios have no in-unit laundry and just a microwave and mini fridge like millions of hotel rooms across the country. While passable, it could be so much better.


I agree, the Marriott studios are by far inferior to the smallest units at Westin or Sheraton properties.


----------



## grgs

kozykritter said:


> Vistana units regardless of size have a kitchen you can cook in and in-unit laundry, making them feel like a condo. MVC studios have no in-unit laundry and just a microwave and mini fridge like millions of hotel rooms across the country. While passable, it could be so much better.



I agree.  This is one of the main reasons we choose Vistana over Marriott way back when.  Even the Lagunamar studio has a W/D in the unit.


----------



## grgs

Based on the sheets that have been shown owners at presentations during this "soft launch" period, can we start collecting in one place what the DP allocation is per resort/unit/week?  Or, do we feel it's too soon to do that?  Even if these numbers aren't firm, it might be interesting to see if they change once the "hard launch" goes into effect. 

The ones that I have noted are:

WKV, 2 bedroom, Plat +: 4050
WLR, 2 bedroom, Plat +: 4950

If someone knows what the proposed allocation is for WKV, 1 bedroom premium, Plat +, SDO, 2 bedroom & 1 bedroom premium (both Plat +), please let me know.  

Thanks!

Glorian


----------



## pchung6

Let me start to compile what we know so far about the SO/DC ratio:

WKV 2br Plat+: 36.57 = 148100/4050
WLR 2br Plat+: 29.1 = 148100/4950
WKORVN OF 2br Plat+: 21.22 = 176700/8325
SVV 2br Plat: 30.86 = 81000/2625

Can someone please confirm above are correct?


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> It’s what a Marriott sales rep told me once. “You know Marriott owners pride themselves on being Marriott snobs because we have the best resorts”. That was her sales pitch. So I’ve been running with that ever since.



Instead of criticizing others, what I do is be proud of what I have.


----------



## GregT

pchung6 said:


> Let me start to compile what we know so far about the SO/DC ratio:
> 
> WKV 2br Plat+: 36.57 = 148100/4050
> WLR 2br Plat+: 29.1 = 148100/4950
> WKORVN OF 2br Plat+: 21.22 = 176700/8325
> SVV 2br Plat: 30.86 = 81000/2625
> 
> Can someone please confirm above are correct?


I think this is a great idea -- we did something similar in Marriott world to try and figure out what the property points values were when the DC was announced and we constructed the attached.  It would be terrific if a similar thing was built for the Starwood properties.  The 5th column is what is key (the DC points), there is alot of data to the right that is now obsolete....

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

GregT said:


> I think this is a great idea -- we did something similar in Marriott world to try and figure out what the property points values were when the DC was announced and we constructed the attached.  It would be terrific if a similar thing was built for the Starwood properties.  The 5th column is what is key (the DC points), there is alot of data to the right that is now obsolete....
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


From the ROFR database I also have a list of every possible villa type that was sold by Vistana. We just need to start plugging in the DC point values once we know them. I will see if I can convert it to a Google Sheet to be able share and update.


----------



## regatta333

Got the following from our sales rep at Kierland.  I am surprised that the conversion rates are different based on unit size.


----------



## Lansdowne

"- Our WKORVN OF week is worth 8325 points. ..."

Interesting.  Our 3-Bedroom oceanview/front at KoOlina is only worth 6550 DPs.  Unfortunately, you can barely get a 2-bedroom in Maui, without a kitchen, for that amount of DPs!  If they are going to give 8325 Club/Destination points for a WKORVN 2-Bedroom oceanfront, that is a decent exchange rate.  As your post indicates, you cannot get back into WKORV for that amount (8200 to 11475), except for very off seasons. The same is true for our KoOlina property (DPs needed range from 6475-9175). I guess they have to offer this much to try and get Westin Kaanapali/Nanea owners to elect Club/Destination points instead of staying at their home resort!  Otherwise, there will be no additional Hawaii inventory available on points which was, I believe, their primary goal in acquiring the Westin/Sheraton/Vistana timeshares...

View attachment 50383
[/QUOTE]


----------



## kozykritter

regatta333 said:


> Got the following from our sales rep at Kierland.  I am surprised that the conversion rates are different based on unit size.


That part of the bottom is also weird pertaining to elite levels conversions. Why would they list 3* also under presidential and chairman?


----------



## divenski

Lansdowne said:


> Otherwise, there will be no additional Hawaii inventory available on points which was, I believe, their primary goal in acquiring the Westin/Sheraton/Vistana timeshares...



But there is still Flex and ongoing ROFR, even though that will take time. And some owners will elect for points, even if only occasionally. In the near term though, MVC gets to include most of the Westin properties as part of the DC and that makes for a more compelling sales pitch even if it is mostly on paper.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Its going to take more than just points to get people to deposit their high end week. I wouldn't mind trading our WKORVN OF with Ko Olina OF or Kauai  or Newport on occasion, however without knowing inventory availability in DP when depositing, and only being able to trade at 12 mos. vs. 13 as a non-elite, I am inclined not to risk it and would stick with trading SOs during the use year, or rent + cash.

This is also really complicated. To compare, with the SO (and HGV) systems, there is no depositing your week in advance of the use year, Your week is worth a certain amount of points and if you see availability for a stay in your resort or another resort upon the opening for the trading window- you simply book it. No skim in SO or HGV systems either. Very simple.

I wouldn't pay for additional DP points for the opportunity to enroll our unit given the complexity and risk of trades. If we could pass the DP trading ability onto reseller buyers, we might reconsider. Of course YMMV there are likely use cases where this makes sense, but not for us from what I can see thus far.


----------



## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> That part of the bottom is also weird pertaining to elite levels conversions. Why would they list 3* also under presidential and chairman?



My interpretation would be that if you are 3* with enough points you could be presidential or chairman based on the points, but will be executive regardless; similarly 4* could be chairman based on points but will be no less than presidential.  We’ll see for sure when the actual announcement comes out.


----------



## sharr7

regatta333 said:


> Got the following from our sales rep at Kierland.  I am surprised that the conversion rates are different based on unit size.



Thanks for sharing this. By my estimation, this is the summary with DC points calculated. Looks like this is in line with prior reports for Plat+ 2BR. I also compared to the MVC chart for Canyon Villas. Looks like they devalue the premium/higher BR weeks most. Although the 81k 2BR is relatively valuable. Maybe the shoulder season and smaller units would be more likely to exchange here.



WKVSOConvDCMax Cost to Reserve Canyon Villas2BR LO148,10036.574,0504,1752BR LO81,00023.423,4592,7252BR LO56,30025.592,2001,9501BR Prem81,00031.152,6002,9001BR Prem44,00023.781,8501,9501BR Prem30,50021.031,4501,4001BR67,10031.212,1501,7251BR37,00024.671,5001,2251BR25,80021.51,200900


----------



## TravelTime

pchung6 said:


> Let me start to compile what we know so far about the SO/DC ratio:
> 
> WKV 2br Plat+: 36.57 = 148100/4050
> WLR 2br Plat+: 29.1 = 148100/4950
> WKORVN OF 2br Plat+: 21.22 = 176700/8325
> SVV 2br Plat: 30.86 = 81000/2625
> 
> Can someone please confirm above are correct?



This sounds great if it ends up being true that WKOVRN OF 2BR ends up getting 8325 DPs. This is more than it costs for a week in DPs for peak weeks like Easter week. That sounds very high. What got you to assume this conversion?


----------



## grgs

regatta333 said:


> Got the following from our sales rep at Kierland.  I am surprised that the conversion rates are different based on unit size.


Thanks for sharing this! I just need to find out about SDO now.


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> Its going to take more than just points to get people to deposit their high end week. I wouldn't mind trading our WKORVN OF with Ko Olina OF or Kauai  or Newport on occasion, however without knowing inventory availability in DP when depositing, and only being able to trade at 12 mos. vs. 13 as a non-elite, I am inclined not to risk it and would stick with trading SOs during the use year, or rent + cash.
> 
> This is really complicated. To compare, with the SO (and HGV) systems, there is no depositing your week in advance of the use year, Your week is worth a certain amount of points and if you see availability for a stay in your resort or another resort upon the opening for the trading window- you simply book it. No skim in SO or HGV systems either. Very simple.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't pay for DP points for the opportunity do so given the complexity and risk of trades. Of course YMMV there are likely use cases where this makes sense, but not for us from what I can see thus far.



I would be inclined to convert my SOs to DPs because I can only exchange into another Vistana resort at 8 months and there are only a few I would be interested in exchanging into. With MVC, I can reserve at 13 months and there are many more locations than with Vistana alone. I own WKOVRN OF EOY but I have little interest in going to Maui EOY. I am not even sure why I bought. It was when I was on the resale purchase binge. Since that binge, I have sold 9 of my previous timeshares. I was going to sell WKOVRN but only held it because I am hoping I can convert it into DPs after the merger. What is the risk you mention about converting to DPs? I have had no risk and gotten everything I want.


----------



## dioxide45

regatta333 said:


> Got the following from our sales rep at Kierland.  I am surprised that the conversion rates are different based on unit size.


I can figure out SFX, WFX and I think WNV is Nanea, but what is WAC?


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> That part of the bottom is also weird pertaining to elite levels conversions. Why would they list 3* also under presidential and chairman?


Who knows. I wonder if this wasn't created by a salesperson based on information they gleaned from training? It seems very odd with these conversion rates. I suspect Marriott is giving them a fixed number and they are converting it based on the number of StarOptions.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> What is the risk you mention about converting to DPs? I have had no risk and gotten everything I want.


Electing DC points is final. If you convert and the inventory isn't there, you can't get your home resort back and likely can't go back to VSN.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@TravelTime The inventory must be in the DP system. 8 Mo SO and 13 mo DP doesn't matter because inventory is in two separate systems.  If an SO owner has not deposited it will stay in SO inventory.

We are more inclined to trade into Vistana St. John, Westin Kauai, or Lagunamar. SOs sound like the best chances of trading into there and I don't need to deposit in advance without seeing inventory availability. The Ritz properties sound interesting but not sure of the chances of availability since we are not elite.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> I can figure out SFX, WFX and I think WNV is Nanea, but what is WAC?


Westin Aventuras Club, perhaps.


----------



## Lansdowne

regatta333 said:


> This purchase gets us to 4*, which will be Presidential in Marriott, even though it only converts to 9,935 DC points.



Make sure this was in writing in the contract and that they won't make you buy more later to get to Presidential which starts at 10K...


----------



## regatta333

Lansdowne said:


> Make sure this was in writing in the contract and that they won't make you buy more later to get to Presidential which starts at 10K...



Actually, I was using the conversion rate for the 2BD platinum on the small 1BD.  Didn't realize it would be a different conversion factor, so this will put out total DC points at 10.250.  Still not sure why the conversion rates are more favorable to the separate 1BDs.  Too bad the Lockout units must be converted in their entirety.  If we could do them separately, it would result in 700 more DC points per 2BD unit.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> Instead of criticizing others, what I do is be proud of what I have.


I am proud of what I have, Vistana units.


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> Electing DC points is final. If you convert and the inventory isn't there, you can't get your home resort back and likely can't go back to VSN.



What about if you do not reserve your home resort within 12 months, like if it is taken or you wait? Then your home resort preference is lost and you probably can’t exchange into something desirable like Westin St John or Harborside at 8 months. I own Maui so I would not exchange into anything else. I ended up losing a 1 bedroom half because I could not use it with SOs. I think there is much less risk with DPs.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> I am proud of what I have, Vistana units. Maybe Marriott owners are snobbish in some way, but I have never said they were, Marriotts own employees did, on more than one occasion. I guess it’s the same way Marriott vacation club owners refer to Vistana owners as “The Vistana people”. When things like “The Vistana people should have to pay to access Marriott resorts, after all “WE” acquired “THEM” are said, it sounds a bit “snobbish” to me.



This is all so silly. I would not pay attention to what a salesperson said. Maybe on TUG, some people say dumb things like this but I have actually never heard this until you said it. I have heard Vistana owners unhappy with the MVC merger but I really do not understand why having more options is a bad thing. Oh I guess they are scared that all the Vistana inventory will get taken up with more DP owners. However it is not all that easy to book with SOs at a resort where you are not an owner at the 8 month mark. I lost many SOs for this reason. Maybe I am a snob because I own in Maui and would not want to exchange into the majority of Vistana resorts because they are worth less to me.


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> @TravelTime The inventory must be in the DP system. 8 Mo SO and 13 mo DP doesn't matter because inventory is in two separate systems.  If an SO owner has not deposited it will stay in SO inventory.
> 
> We are more inclined to trade into Vistana St. John, Westin Kauai, or Lagunamar. SOs sound like the best chances of trading into there and I don't need to deposit in advance without seeing inventory availability. The Ritz properties sound interesting but not sure of the chances of availability since we are not elite.



I am Presidential with MVC and, as you know, I also own WKOVRN OF. To me, the MVC system offers more exchange opportunities and you can book at 13 months to get the best inventory. I lost 81,000 SOs last year so I do not think the SO system is better. I have not lost much value in MVC. Maybe $40 worth of value vs thousands of lost value with Vistana.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> What about if you do not reserve your home resort within 12 months, like if it is taken or you wait? Then your home resort preference is lost and you probably can’t exchange into something desirable like Westin St John or Harborside at 8 months. I own Maui so I would not exchange into anything else. I ended up losing a 1 bedroom half because I could not use it with SOs. I think there is much less risk with DPs.


I think 8 month reservations in WSJ and HRA may not be so difficult at first. Most of that inventory will still probably reside in the VSN for a bit. We know HRA will have at least a year delay in joining the DCE and who knows about WSJ. I hear it’s difficult enough to get into WSJ for owners and the VSN in general. With that being said, I have been able to book WSJ at the 8 month mark and hope that it continues.


----------



## Nick66

What owner level do you need to be at in MVC  to get access to 13 month booking ?


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> This is all so silly. I would not pay attention to what a salesperson said. Maybe on TUG, some people say dumb things like this but I have actually never heard this until you said it. I have heard Vistana owners unhappy with the MVC merger but I really do not understand why having more options is a bad thing. Oh I guess they are scared that all the Vistana inventory will get taken up with more DP owners. However it is not all that easy to book with SOs at a resort where you are not an owner at the 8 month mark. I lost many SOs for this reason. Maybe I am a snob because I own in Maui and would not want to exchange into the majority of Vistana resorts because they are worth less to me.


I just found it interesting that a sales rep would call their owners snobs. They were saying it boastfully and when i said it, I’m being facetious. with that being said, there are plenty of resorts I wouldn’t stay in because they are lesser quality than a Marriott or vistana unit. I’m am looking forward to more choices, heck, I’ve been looking for a Marriott legacy week to use in II.

Most on here own low fee Vistana ownerships for the purposes of using the VSN (a sound strategy that has been kicked around of TUG for a long time). So of course there will be concerns about availability diminishing in the VSN going forward. Geez, we haven’t even been able to book this last year with all of the website issues. The fear that things will only get worse is real, especially if you own resales and cannot participate in converting. We all have our favorite VSN resorts and some of them are difficult to get into as it is, so yes there is a level un uncertainty that will come along with these changes. Let’s have a bit of compassion for those who may be left holding a few ownerships with less ways to use them going forward lol.


----------



## Bill R

CalGalTraveler said:


> @TravelTime The inventory must be in the DP system. 8 Mo SO and 13 mo DP doesn't matter because inventory is in two separate systems.  If an SO owner has not deposited it will stay in SO inventory.
> 
> We are more inclined to trade into Vistana St. John, Westin Kauai, or Lagunamar. SOs sound like the best chances of trading into there and I don't need to deposit in advance without seeing inventory availability. The Ritz properties sound interesting but not sure of the chances of availability since we are not elite.



Good luck getting in to St. John; we own there and it's very hard to get in...   We've been told at various times that it's the hardest Westin/Vistana resort to get into, and that most owners don't trade.  I don't know about the latter, but the former is true!


----------



## Bill R

CPNY said:


> I think 8 month reservations in WSJ and HRA may not be so difficult at first. Most of that inventory will still probably reside in the VSN for a bit. We know HRA will have at least a year delay in joining the DCE and who knows about WSJ. I hear it’s difficult enough to get into WSJ for owners and the VSN in general. With that being said, I have been able to book WSJ at the 8 month mark and hope that it continues.



As I already mentioned, Westin St. John is not easy to get into, unless high hurricane season, and you need to know that St. John - after being battered by 2 hurricanes the same year a few years ago - has still not come all the way "back" (the island, not the resort, it's all rebuilt but has staffing issues, like many places), and that many businesses and restaurants are closed during August and September, including or especially sailing and snorkeling charters, etc.  I can now see some Westin St. John inventory for August and September, but note my comment above about that time frame.


----------



## DanCali

regatta333 said:


> Got the following from our sales rep at Kierland.  I am surprised that the conversion rates are different based on unit size.



So, if you own a 2BR lockoff can you convert the small 1BR and then the large 1BR separately and get about 4750 points instead of 4050 (1:31 instead of 1:37)? That doesn't sound right, unless you are forced to convert the entire 2BR.


----------



## VacationForever

DanCali said:


> So, can you convert the small 1BR and then the large 1BR and get about 4770 points instead of 4050 (1:31 instead of 1:37)?
> 
> That doesn't sound right.


You cannot convert individual sides in the DC system.  You have to elect the entire villa.


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> So, can you convert the small 1BR and then the large 1BR and get about 4770 points instead of 4050 (1:31 instead of 1:37)?
> 
> That doesn't sound right.


I think this is something that a salesperson put together. WKV doesn't even have a silver season. The lowest season is Gold.



VacationForever said:


> You cannot convert individual sides in the DC system.  You have to elect the entire villa.


I think this may work differently with Vistana though, as each side is technically a separate VOI.


----------



## needvaca

Bill R said:


> Good luck getting in to St. John; we own there and it's very hard to get in...   We've been told at various times that it's the hardest Westin/Vistana resort to get into, and that most owners don't trade.  I don't know about the latter, but the former is true!


I’ve booked into Westin St. John 3 times so far with Staroptions. It’s been at exactly the 8 month mark, but I’ve had no problem getting a 2BR. The 3 BR pool villas are gone then, but there are still 1 and 2 BRs available. The next day they are gone, so it is important to book right at 8 months.
I’ve also gotten Maui right at 8 months too.
I LOVE my Staroptions and will keep them as is. No thanks Marriott.


----------



## DanCali

VacationForever said:


> You cannot convert individual sides in the DC system.  You have to elect the entire villa.




If you can split the 2BR in a Staroption exchange or an II deposit, it stands to reason you can do so here as well.

Even when I book it as a 2BR lockoff, it shows up as 2 separate 1BR reservations on marriott.com


----------



## VacationForever

DanCali said:


> If you can split the 2BR in a Staroption exchange or an II deposit, it stands to reason you can do so here as well.
> 
> Even when I book it as a 2BR lockoff, it shows up as 2 separate 1BR reservations on marriott.com


I own at both Vistana (2BR LO) and MVC and know what you are saying.  We will have to see if DC treats 2 sides as individual units.


----------



## Bill R

TravelTime said:


> It is all speculation so until there are facts in writing, no need to move to a new thread.
> 
> Maybe if there is a more narrow question to discuss about the potential Vistana/MVC integration, that could be a new thread. But it will still be speculation.
> 
> An interesting thread might be a new one with a survey question of choices of people prefer. Some answers could be.
> 
> -Stay the same (no MVC integration)
> -Allow only qualified Vistana owners to elect DPs
> -Allow all Vistana resale owners to elect DPs with no fee or low fee
> -Other
> 
> Then people could post why they chose their answer and related comments to this question.
> 
> The answers to this question would interest me.



This is a hard thread to sort through, but if "someone" goes to the effort to boil some of these things down, I sure would appreciate it if things are defined and explained more clearly.  As a long-time owner of Sheraton, then and now Westin locations, I am familiar with how the Westin/Vistana things work (although we keep learning new things!), but all this Marriott stuff with all the acronyms being used is very unfamiliar to me - DC vs DP, etc etc.  We have never used Interval International, mostly because you can't really see what you want to make a direct trade for, and frankly, most of the properties other than Marriott Vacation Club properties don't look nearly as nice as the Westin properties.  There, I said it!   And since we own on Maui and St. John, we have rarely used our Star Options for anything else - although we have been to Cabo twice in the last year because it was so easy and more open than Hawaii, which has essentially been all but shut down, than overrun and totally understaffed, over the last 2 years.  I think the manager of the Westin Ka'anapali villas properties should be fired; their services compared to Marriott hotels on the island have been unacceptable.

Maybe it's because of the complexity of trying to sort all of this points to Star Options equivalency, fees conversions/changes, and reservation periods that Marriott is taking so long to roll this out. From reading all the comments on this thread, explaining how this will all work will take quite some effort!  Probably easy to say A=X, but then the ifs, ands and buts - all the exceptions - is where things go awry!  Oh, and as we Vistana owners know, they have to sort through the website issues first, AND as we ALL know, Marriott has also just moved to "dynamic points pricing" for the hotels, so I imagine they are trying to manage all the changes, internally and externally!  There probably is also some effort in this "soft rollout" of the vacation clubs merger a bit of a trial balloon; what will entice folks, do they understand what we are saying and selling, etc. 

I know this is a forum of "experts", but sometimes I read these and just marvel at all the acronyms.  It saves typing I guess, but leaves a lot to be desired from an easy to read, clarity point of view.
One person's opinion...


----------



## dioxide45

Another question is, will we ever see full 2BR units available at resorts where all the 2BR units lock off. I know that II never gets full 2BR units at Vistana properties and when you search on Marriott.com there is never a 2BR unit available at a resort with all 2BR LO units. Try searching WKV, I can only ever find 1BR units available to book on Marriott.com.


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> Another question is, will we ever see full 2BR units available at resorts where all the 2BR units lock off. I know that II never gets full 2BR units at Vistana properties and when you search on Marriott.com there is never a 2BR unit available at a resort with all 2BR LO units. Try searching WKV, I can only ever find 1BR units available to book on Marriott.com.


There was a significant 2BR deposit at Westin Desert Willow and Westin Mission Hills for Nov and Dec 2022, and some units are still there in II.  This is the first 2BR deposits at resorts where 2BR locks off we have seen in the past 5 years.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> I think 8 month reservations in WSJ and HRA may not be so difficult at first. Most of that inventory will still probably reside in the VSN for a bit. We know HRA will have at least a year delay in joining the DCE and who knows about WSJ. I hear it’s difficult enough to get into WSJ for owners and the VSN in general. With that being said, I have been able to book WSJ at the 8 month mark and hope that it continues.



My point was it is difficult to book into WSJ and Harbourside now at 8 months. I think it will be easier to book with MVC at 13 months.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> I just found it interesting that a sales rep would call their owners snobs. They were saying it boastfully and when i said it, I’m being facetious. with that being said, there are plenty of resorts I wouldn’t stay in because they are lesser quality than a Marriott or vistana unit. I’m am looking forward to more choices, heck, I’ve been looking for a Marriott legacy week to use in II.
> 
> Most on here own low fee Vistana ownerships for the purposes of using the VSN (a sound strategy that has been kicked around of TUG for a long time). So of course there will be concerns about availability diminishing in the VSN going forward. Geez, we haven’t even been able to book this last year with all of the website issues. The fear that things will only get worse is real, especially if you own resales and cannot participate in converting. We all have our favorite VSN resorts and some of them are difficult to get into as it is, so yes there is a level un uncertainty that will come along with these changes. Let’s have a bit of compassion for those who may be left holding a few ownerships with less ways to use them going forward lol.



If there is a way for me to convert my resale WKOVRN OF to DPs, and it is not too expensive to qualify my week, then I will love the new program.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> If there is a way for me to convert my resale WKOVRN OF to DPs, and it is not too expensive to qualify my week, then I will love the new program.




Historically, qualifying resale weeks was a $30K+ spend with Marriott, generally forcing you to buy an expensive points product or an Aruba week you might not need.

Those who had an opportunity to requalify with Vistana for $10K + $5K per additional VOI may regret not doing that.


----------



## TravelTime

People keep saying Vistana properties are nicer than Marriott properties. I am not sure that is true. 

Comparing MOC Napili/Lahaina in Maui to Westin Maui, I thought MOC was nicer. I stayed in the best unit at WKOVR south in center OF on the top floor. This is considered the best in all of WKOVR south or north. I liked the oceanfront view and the large balcony but I liked the actual unit at MOC better as well as walking distance to the mall with restaurants and shopping. I thought there were pros and cons of each and neither is better or worse. I got oceanfront in both resorts.

In 2023, I am staying one week in WKOVRN OF and the following week at MOC Napili/Lahaina OF so I can do another back to back comparison using north as the comparison point.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> People keep saying Vistana properties are nicer than Marriott properties. I am not sure that is true.
> 
> Comparing MOC Napili/Lahaina in Maui to Westin Maui, I thought MOC was nicer. I stayed in the best unit at WKOVR south in center OF on the top floor. This is considered the best in all of WKOVR south or north. I liked the oceanfront view and the large balcony but I liked the actual unit at MOC better as well as walking distance to the mall with restaurants and shopping. I thought there were pros and cons of each and neither is better or worse. I got oceanfront in both resorts.
> 
> In 2023, I am staying one week in WKOVRN OF and the following week at MOC Napili/Lahaina OF so I can do another back to back comparison using north as the comparison point.



Both me and my wife agree that in terms of "feel" the Westins are a step above the Marriotts. Hard to explain, but they just have a more luxurious feel. However, as others have pointed out, Marriott kitchens are generally better stocked when it comes to practical things like tupperware etc and that can also make a difference.

You are right that location also matters. We've had a couple of Kauai vacations combining the Westin Princeville with Marriott's Waiohai in Poipu. The Westin is a fantastic property but the proximity of the Poipu resort to the ocean and restaurants/shopping makes it a the more enjoyable part of that vacation for us.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> People keep saying Vistana properties are nicer than Marriott properties. I am not sure that is true.
> 
> Comparing MOC Napili/Lahaina in Maui to Westin Maui, I thought MOC was nicer. I stayed in the best unit at WKOVR south in center OF on the top floor. This is considered the best in all of WKOVR south or north. I liked the oceanfront view and the large balcony but I liked the actual unit at MOC better as well as walking distance to the mall with restaurants and shopping. I thought there were pros and cons of each and neither is better or worse. I got oceanfront in both resorts.
> 
> In 2023, I am staying one week in WKOVRN OF and the following week at MOC Napili/Lahaina OF so I can do another back to back comparison using north as the comparison point.



South view front corner at WKORV is the best unit, not the center. The corner units have side windows which - at least in my opinion - makes it much more desirable. The center is only best when considering MF.

In my experience, Westin is much better than most Marriotts…at least the ~10 Marriotts I’ve seen. Given what I’ve read so far, I don’t see any reason to even have a meeting to discuss the new program.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> I think this is something that a salesperson put together. WKV doesn't even have a silver season. The lowest season is Gold.



It used to have silver until they arbitrarily changed the names and added Platinum Plus, so all the seasons bumped up to the next level. Even then there was absolutely no change in use - it was just a name change.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> It used to have silver until they arbitrarily changed the names and added Platinum Plus, so all the seasons bumped up to the next level. Even then there was absolutely no change in use - it was just a name change.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


So perhaps this is the difference between "Home Season" and "VSN Season"?


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## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> So perhaps this is the difference between "Home Season" and "VSN Season"?



That kind of makes sense.  The chart posted in post #970 lists platinum, gold, and silver as seasons rather than platinum+, gold+, and gold.  Similar to how the SVV seasons are High and Peak rather than platinum and gold+, but less confusing because the resort seasons don't use any of the same names as the VSN seasons there.


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## jabberwocky

CalGalTraveler said:


> @TravelTime The inventory must be in the DP system. 8 Mo SO and 13 mo DP doesn't matter because inventory is in two separate systems.  If an SO owner has not deposited it will stay in SO inventory.


I know it is unlikely given how deposited units will be snapped up within MVC, but as a thought experiment what would happen if a DC deposited unit at a mandatory resort was still available at the 8 month mark?

Could the unit still be booked within VSN if it was available?


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## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> If there is a way for me to convert my resale WKOVRN OF to DPs, and it is not too expensive to qualify my week, then I will love the new program.


That unit converted to DC points is an excellent value. Others with one or multiple low point values won’t find much value. I hope it works out for most if not all.


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## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> This sounds great if it ends up being true that WKOVRN OF 2BR ends up getting 8325 DPs. This is more than it costs for a week in DPs for peak weeks like Easter week. That sounds very high. What got you to assume this conversion?


This is the value that was given to me in our owners update last Tuesday for our WKORVN OF week. I also saw it listed on our owner profile sheet as the conversion value. There might be some tweaks or variations for different weeks, but I believe it is pretty close to what the final value will come in at.


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## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> My point was it is difficult to book into WSJ and Harbourside now at 8 months. I think it will be easier to book with MVC at 13 months.


It all depends on how the units are valued. We really have to wait and see how the charts look for those two resorts. Summer weeks for those two properties are very attainable in the VSN when there is availability


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## CPNY

Bill R said:


> As I already mentioned, Westin St. John is not easy to get into, unless high hurricane season, and you need to know that St. John - after being battered by 2 hurricanes the same year a few years ago - has still not come all the way "back" (the island, not the resort, it's all rebuilt but has staffing issues, like many places), and that many businesses and restaurants are closed during August and September, including or especially sailing and snorkeling charters, etc.  I can now see some Westin St. John inventory for August and September, but note my comment above about that time frame.


Good points, I have a reservation in august for a 3 bedroom pool villa. The island is so amazing that I don’t need much in terms of restaurants or charters. I personally enjoy the Caribbean during hurricane season. I enjoy the water waters and temps.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Bill R said:


> I know this is a forum of "experts", but sometimes I read these and just marvel at all the acronyms. It saves typing I guess, but leaves a lot to be desired from an easy to read, clarity point of view.
> One person's opinion...



There is a reason I created an acronym post for SVO (Starwood Vacation Ownership) many years ago - because it is (for example) a PIA to type Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas North - instead of WKORVN. There are many examples of this and now many more with Marriott.

My suggestion is to limit the number of words that can be used in a post (like Twitter does with characters) - because to many people use too many words to relay their ideas and opinions, and it makes reading threads like this almost unbearable.

aka TL;DR

This is a lesson I learned in the corporate world.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DavidnRobin

TravelTime said:


> People keep saying Vistana properties are nicer than Marriott properties. I am not sure that is true.
> 
> Comparing MOC Napili/Lahaina in Maui to Westin Maui, I thought MOC was nicer. I stayed in the best unit at WKOVR south in center OF on the top floor. This is considered the best in all of WKOVR south or north. I liked the oceanfront view and the large balcony but I liked the actual unit at MOC better as well as walking distance to the mall with restaurants and shopping. I thought there were pros and cons of each and neither is better or worse. I got oceanfront in both resorts.
> 
> In 2023, I am staying one week in WKOVRN OF and the following week at MOC Napili/Lahaina OF so I can do another back to back comparison using north as the comparison point.



WKORV OFD > OFC (w/o considering MFs) for many reasons (I’ve been in both) that have been discussed here before.

And the B2 South corner villa being the best in VSE IMO

The reef outside WKORV/N makes the location a premium.
I actually saw a sea snake in front of B2 for the 1st time (in 16 years) last week - amazing. Wish I had my GoPro with me.

But too each his own. I can go to a mall and restaurants here at home.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DavidnRobin

Ken555 said:


> South view front corner at WKORV is the best unit, not the center. The corner units have side windows which - at least in my opinion - makes it much more desirable. The center is only best when considering MF.
> 
> In my experience, Westin is much better than most Marriotts…at least the ~10 Marriotts I’ve seen. Given what I’ve read so far, I don’t see any reason to even have a meeting to discuss the new program.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Ken beat me too it…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> South view front corner at WKORV is the best unit, not the center. The corner units have side windows which - at least in my opinion - makes it much more desirable. The center is only best when considering MF.
> 
> In my experience, Westin is much better than most Marriotts…at least the ~10 Marriotts I’ve seen. Given what I’ve read so far, I don’t see any reason to even have a meeting to discuss the new program.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Actually then I think we had a corner bc it had side windows. The view was as good as it gets. The interior was bland. It was different tones of beige and no art on the walls.


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> This is the value that was given to me in our owners update last Tuesday for our WKORVN OF week. I also saw it listed on our owner profile sheet as the conversion value. There might be some tweaks or variations for different weeks, but I believe it is pretty close to what the final value will come in at.



Maybe the sales guy wrote down what a holiday week is worth in points. Why was he telling you a conversion value? Was there an ulterior motive?


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## TravelTime

DavidnRobin said:


> WKORV OFD > OFC (w/o considering MFs) for many reasons (I’ve been in both) that have been discussed here before.
> 
> And the B2 South corner villa being the best in VSE IMO
> 
> The reef outside WKORV/N makes the location a premium.
> I actually saw a sea snake in front of B2 for the 1st time (in 16 years) last week - amazing. Wish I had my GoPro with me.
> 
> But too each his own. I can go to a mall and restaurants here at home.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I think it might have been a corner unit bc I recall side windows. I recall how sunny it was and I had to close the blinds.


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## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> Maybe the sales guy wrote down what a holiday week is worth in points. Why was he telling you a conversion value? Was there an ulterior motive?


All salespeople want to sell something. I’ve documented earlier in this thread how I received the information and what I’ve been told - he didn’t just pull the number from thin air.

He didn’t try to tell me that I needed to buy more flex to bring our resale mandatory into the system - which I was surprised by given other TUG reports.


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## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> All salespeople want to sell something. I’ve documented earlier in this thread how I received the information and what I’ve been told - he didn’t just pull the number from thin air.
> 
> He didn’t try to tell me that I needed to buy more flex to bring our resale mandatory into the system - which I was surprised by given other TUG reports.



I hope he is right.


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## vacationtime1

Ken555 said:


> South view front corner at WKORV is the best unit, not the center. The corner units have side windows which - at least in my opinion - makes it much more desirable. The center is only best when considering MF.


I agree that the south view corner WKORV-OF are the best view units on Maui (specifically, room 3629 or 3529).

But the center units are better for those who typically split their unit and stay one week in each half.  The center OF studios are true OF units with an ocean facing lanai; the corner ("deluxe") studios are not directly ocean facing (the studio actually has an OV view, not an OF view).


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## rickandcindy23

The best views on Maui for Westin, yes. This is what I want to buy for us at Westin.   

There are resorts that are closer to the water.  Hono Koa oceanfront units are 40 feet to the water, not 200 feet.  



vacationtime1 said:


> I agree that the south view corner WKORV-OF are the best view units on Maui (specifically, room 3629 or 3529).
> 
> But the center units are better for those who typically split their unit and stay one week in each half.  The center OF studios are true OF units with an ocean facing lanai; the corner ("deluxe") studios are not directly ocean facing (the studio actually has an OV view, not an OF view).


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## Bill R

DavidnRobin said:


> WKORV OFD > OFC (w/o considering MFs) for many reasons (I’ve been in both) that have been discussed here before.
> 
> And the B2 South corner villa being the best in VSE IMO
> 
> The reef outside WKORV/N makes the location a premium.
> I actually saw a sea snake in front of B2 for the 1st time (in 16 years) last week - amazing. Wish I had my GoPro with me.
> 
> But too each his own. I can go to a mall and restaurants here at home.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I sure hope you meant a Moray Eel, NOT a sea snake!      I agree the reef area in front of the Westin is great, plenty of fish and turtles to see there.  The only problem has become the declining beachfront in front of the Westin.  It's getting way smaller than the rest of Ka'anapali beach.
And Ocean Front bulkhead there is one of the nicest we have ever experienced.  Great location and nice rooms, especially the outer/corner ones, as you mentioned.


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## DavidnRobin

Bill R said:


> I sure hope you meant a Moray Eel, NOT a sea snake!  I agree the reef area in front of the Westin is great, plenty of fish and turtles to see there. The only problem has become the declining beachfront in front of the Westin. It's getting way smaller than the rest of Ka'anapali beach.
> And Ocean Front bulkhead there is one of the nicest we have ever experienced. Great location and nice rooms, especially the outer/corner ones, as you mentioned.



The beach size is season dependent.

It wasn’t a moray eel (seen plenty of these).
After looking it up - it was a large saddled snake eel (about 6 feet long).
It was located at about 1 o’clock from center of B2 about 100 feet out in about 10-15 feet of water.
I wanted to to shore to get my GoPro, but figured it would be hard to find again, and Robin wouldn’t stay out there alone to keep it in sight - she was a little freaked out by it.

It looked like this…
You can see why mistaken for a sea snake.
(From Internet)







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TravelTime

When I stayed at WKOVR, it did not look like there were any reefs nearby but I am probably wrong. The water was deep and cold so I did not go in. We are going to Oahu next week and I purchased a shortie bc Hawaii water is way too cold for me.


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## kozykritter

Not to be that person but this helpful and informative conversation is a bit off topic for the merger post so maybe someone could start a thread for it or move the conversation to an existing one instead.


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## CPNY

DavidnRobin said:


> The beach size is season dependent.
> 
> It wasn’t a moray eel (seen plenty of these).
> After looking it up - it was a large saddled snake eel (about 6 feet long).
> It was located at about 1 o’clock from center of B2 about 100 feet out in about 10-15 feet of water.
> I wanted to to shore to get my GoPro, but figured it would be hard to find again, and Robin wouldn’t stay out there alone to keep it in sight - she was a little freaked out by it.
> 
> It looked like this…
> You can see why mistaken for a sea snake.
> (From Internet)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





kozykritter said:


> Not to be that person but this helpful and informative conversation is a bit off topic for the merger post so maybe someone could start a thread for it or move the conversation to an existing one instead.


agreed, I was about to ask @DavidnRobin about their GoPro as I’m going to bora bora and am thinking about buying one but not so sure. I also didn’t want to hijack the thread so I turned to google. But while I’m writing, how do you like the GoPro? I hear the battery doesn’t last at all.


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## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> When I stayed at WKOVR, it did not look like there were any reefs nearby but I am probably wrong. The water was deep and cold so I did not go in. We are going to Oahu next week and I purchased a shortie bc Hawaii water is way too cold for me.



Hilarious. The reef is maybe 3-5 feet from sand and only a few feet below surface. We've been discussing it and posting pics for at least 16 years on TUG.


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## Ken555

CPNY said:


> agreed, I was about to ask @DavidnRobin about their GoPro as I’m going to bora bora and am thinking about buying one but not so sure. I also didn’t want to hijack the thread so I turned to google. But while I’m writing, how do you like the GoPro? I hear the battery doesn’t last at all.



I think if Marriott sales tossed in a GoPro and 50,000 BonvoyPesos (now that they've been devalued again) I might agree to a five minute meeting.


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## DavidnRobin

This thread is already off the rail.
Sorry - using Tapatalk and not friendly when it comes to thread sorting.

No issue with GoPro (Hero 10) but I have backup batteries and don’t pay attention to battery usage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> Hilarious. The reef is maybe 3-5 feet from sand and only a few feet below surface. We've been discussing it and posting pics for at least 16 years on TUG.



I do not read the Vistana thread too often.


----------



## Bill R

kozykritter said:


> Not to be that person but this helpful and informative conversation is a bit off topic for the merger post so maybe someone could start a thread for it or move the conversation to an existing one instead.


I'm gonna be the guy - not a TUG regular, but love the info. - that says this whole topic and mega thread is pretty "off topic", in that the speculation and reactions to speculation is rampant, with essentially no Facts.  It has been a good learning experience for me, though, as I knew next to nothing about the MVC stuff, however, all the speculation and rumors tend to make it more confusing not less, as none of this really tells us exactly how it all will work.  As I have remarked earlier, writing this up on the Marriott side will be a very tough slog - trying to make it comprehensible to the "common" owner...and presumably trying to make it enticing to participate in?

Having been to an owner's presentation at WKORVN last summer, then one in Cabo in January, and a relative having gone to one a couple of weeks ago in Palm Springs, I can attest to how all over the map these "rumors" and speculation have been in the sales presentations.  We saw an early conversion chart in Cabo in January, but I don't think it was anything more than sales speculation to try and sell from and didn't even match most things folks here are reporting.  The relative who went to a presentation in Palm Springs more recently just said what others have been saying - as a Vistana Flex Owner you won't be able to use any of it unless you buy "more" NOW!  But here we are, 42 pages into this thread, and I'd say there's been more "off topic" than on.  My 2c.

What I DO know is that while I haven't spent hours on the computer searching, EVERY TIME I do search for inventory for trips in planning I either get the system error, or no results, with the "odd" availability at times and places I am NOT that interested in!  So this system issue is the bigger factor for right now, IMO.


----------



## Ken555

Bill R said:


> I'm gonna be the guy - not a TUG regular, but love the info. - that says this whole topic and mega thread is pretty "off topic", in that the speculation and reactions to speculation is rampant, with essentially no Facts. It has been a good learning experience for me, though, as I knew next to nothing about the MVC stuff, however, all the speculation and rumors tend to make it more confusing not less, as none of this really tells us exactly how it all will work. As I have remarked earlier, writing this up on the Marriott side will be a very tough slog - trying to make it comprehensible to the "common" owner...and presumably trying to make it enticing to participate in?
> 
> Having been to an owner's presentation at WKORVN last summer, then one in Cabo in January, and a relative having gone to one a couple of weeks ago in Palm Springs, I can attest to how all over the map these "rumors" and speculation have been in the sales presentations. We saw an early conversion chart in Cabo in January, but I don't think it was anything more than sales speculation to try and sell from and didn't even match most things folks here are reporting. The relative who went to a presentation in Palm Springs more recently just said what others have been saying - as a Vistana Flex Owner you won't be able to use any of it unless you buy "more" NOW! But here we are, 42 pages into this thread, and I'd say there's been more "off topic" than on. My 2c.
> 
> What I DO know is that while I haven't spent hours on the computer searching, EVERY TIME I do search for inventory for trips in planning I either get the system error, or no results, with the "odd" availability at times and places I am NOT that interested in! So this system issue is the bigger factor for right now, IMO.



It almost sounds like you expected, after 1000 comments, that this thread would have…facts. C’mon, we’re talking timeshares here! Facts aren’t allowed. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## robertk2012

Every post that I made about not having facts was deleted.


----------



## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> I think if Marriott sales tossed in a GoPro and 50,000 BonvoyPesos (now that they've been devalued again) I might agree to a five minute meeting.


They would probably give out some old HERO 5 or HERO 7.


----------



## The Colorado Kid

Phone call from Marriott today - offering 25K Bonvoy or 400 Marriott points to attend a virtual update.  Office message said "Marriott Points Sales Office" out of Utah...801-828-1996 - I feel 25K Bonvoy is really low as I received 50K Bonvoy points in Feb for same type of virtual update. Surprised they called me again so soon.


----------



## daviator

The Colorado Kid said:


> Phone call from Marriott today - offering 25K Bonvoy or 400 Marriott points to attend a virtual update.  Office message said "Marriott Points Sales Office" out of Utah...801-828-1996 - I feel 25K Bonvoy is really low as I received 50K Bonvoy points in Feb for same type of virtual update. Surprised they called me again so soon.


I don’t think there is any waiting period between presentation offers any more.  I’ve done an owner update and had them invite me to do another (on a different stay) two weeks later.  It used to be (I think) six months, but now they seem to be happy to pay you over and over if you’ll give them a shot at taking your money…

We are heading to WDW at the end of next week, and I will probably do an update just to hear what they have to say about the new changes.  I will use the ongoing website problems as my reason not to buy, because I want that message getting back to corporate.  You can’t reserve online, you often can’t reach anyone on the phone… why would I want more of that?


----------



## CPNY

I assume this has been posted but I find it hilarious the part that says “for a complete list of benefits and terms and conditions, ask your sales representative”. Unless they have complete program terms and conditions printed out (which I doubt they do) This basically gives sales reps carte Blanche to say what they want and make up their own terms and conditions.

the fees below also state that VSN Members will pay the new consolidated fee. Is VSN membership counted only for developer and retro enrolled ownerships? I was under the impression that VSN Membership was based on the mandatory status of the resort. it doesn’t specify whether it’s only for enrolled members or for all VSN members. I assume non VSN members (voluntary resale owners) pay split housekeeping and cancelation fees that are mentioned?  they would pay a housekeeping fee if they locked off their unit or if they booked multiple trips with a resale flex ownership, correct? So one could assume that mandatory resale units may be eligible to convert. Something tells me that ALL VSN members will be paying the new fee and ALL VSN members will be eligible.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Based on this chart fine print, "VSN Mandatory will pay annual club dues rather than VSN Network Membership Fees."  I don't see any mention of elimination of resale. How would one trade SOs?

If they are eliminating SOs for resale Mandatory by eliminating the VSN Membership, there is no way I would give them one more penny. If true, such heavy handed tactics is not not a way to build positive relationships with owners. Will use or rent our current unit and spend our travel money elsewhere.


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> Based on this chart fine print, "VSN Mandatory will pay annual club dues rather than VSN Network Membership Fees."  I don't see any mention of elimination of resale. How would one trade SOs?
> 
> If they are eliminating SOs for resale Mandatory by eliminating the VSN Membership, there is no way I would give them one more penny. If true, such heavy handed tactics is not not a way to build positive relationships with owners. Will use or rent our current unit and spend our travel money elsewhere.



How would they eliminate SOs for mandatory resale owners? Wouldn’t that be impossible? They might grandfather in current mandatory resales owners and do this with new resale owners, I assume.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> How would they eliminate SOs for mandatory resale owners? Wouldn’t that be impossible? They might grandfather in current mandatory resales owners and do this with new resale owners, I assume.


I don’t think they can, mandatory resorts must be part of the program that is managed by the developer/program manager. The VSN is the program and if they combine programs I’d assume all mandatory units will be able to be part of both.


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## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> Based on this chart fine print, "VSN Mandatory will pay annual club dues rather than VSN Network Membership Fees."  I don't see any mention of elimination of resale. How would one trade SOs?
> 
> If they are eliminating SOs for resale Mandatory by eliminating the VSN Membership, there is no way I would give them one more penny. If true, such heavy handed tactics is not not a way to build positive relationships with owners. Will use or rent our current unit and spend our travel money elsewhere.


The odd thing is that most non VSN members, those at voluntary resorts don't have housekeeping fees or cancellation fees. The fine print doesn't even really make sense. Non VSN members would not have a VSN fee any any fees would be based on the underlying deeds and CC&Rs.

I don't see this as eliminating SOs for Mandatory or eliminating VSN membership, just that the fees associated with VSN membership go away. It does seem pretty heavy handed to increase this fee for some single week owners that always use their home resort but are developer owners or own a mandatory resort.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> I don’t think they can, mandatory resorts must be part of the program that is managed by the developer/program manager. The VSN is the program and if they combine programs I’d assume all mandatory units will be able to be part of both.



That is what I have been thinking but Tuggers keep saying we won’t be


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> I don’t think they can, mandatory resorts must be part of the program that is managed by the developer/program manager. The VSN is the program and if they combine programs I’d assume all mandatory units will be able to be part of both.


I highly doubt we will see VSN go away in favor of a combined program. I fully expect DC will just be another layer.


----------



## regatta333

Are the consolidated Club dues charged on a per week basis or just per account.?


----------



## MICROZE

regatta333 said:


> Are the consolidated Club dues charged on a per week basis or just per account.?


Consolidated fees are Per-Account irrespective of the #-Contracts within an account.


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## CPNY

Ok so going through governing documents I would love some clarification on this stuff and to hear your thoughts. I see vistana East vacation club consists of Bella/Key West, HRA, and WSJ. Each of these has their own verbiage of being part of the club. Here is what it says for Key West SVV: I assume this is just the “mandatory” aspect.

“_Key West. Key West will be sold on a fee title basis. The fee simple title to the Key West property will be submitted to the condominium form of ownership. Units in Key West are being sold subject to a vacation ownership plan. Under the Club Resort vacation ownership plan for Key West, fee title to a VOI, consisting of an undivided 1/52nd interest in the Owner's Unit as tenant in common with the other Owners of VOIs in that Unit, is conveyed to a Purchaser. A Unit is committed to the Club Resort vacation ownership plan on the recording by the Developer of the first deed to a VOI in such Unit, which first deed will also designate the specific VOI being conveyed in that Unit. Title to VOIs will be transferred to Purchasers by a special warranty deed pursuant to the terms of a purchase agreement.
As described above and as set forth in the Club Resort Affiliation Agreement for Key West, membership in the Club is an inseparable part of each Club Resort VOI in Key West. Therefore, when a Purchaser acquires a Club Resort VOI in Key West, the Purchaser automatically becomes a Club Member.” _

Here is what is said regarding the Club, which is different than the network. The network which is the VSN is just an exchange. Now that there will be another exchange I assume that mandatory club members must have access to that exchange as well? Here is what it says:

_“The Club currently is affiliated with the Vistana Signature Network, an exchange program under Florida law, pursuant to a Network Affiliation Agreement. Not all of the Network Resorts are Club Resorts. At Club Resorts, all owners are required to be Club Members. Only the Club Resorts are component sites of the Club multisite vacation ownership plan under Florida law. Subject to availability and pursuant to the Network Rules for the Vistana East Vacation Club, all Network Members will have the opportunity to reserve accommodations and related facilities located at their Home Resort and other Network Resorts, if any, that are affiliated with the Network from time to time.
Pursuant to the Network Affiliation Agreement for the Club, Club Operator also has contracted with Network Operator for Network Operator to perform certain obligations and duties of Club Operator under each Club Affiliation Agreement, including the operation of the reservation system for the Club.”_

Last but not least, Does this give MVW the right to take units from the VSN to place into the DC exchange? does this silence the “MVW can’t take inventory from the VSN and put it into the DCE” crowd? Or is this for interval bulk deposits? It could be a case for funding the DCE considering the DCE is an external exchange. ITS about to get real if that’s the case. If the DCE is not considered an external exchange and is a network exchange like the VSN, how could they keep club members out of converting?

_“d. Network Float Period. The Network Float Period begins eight (8) months prior to the Check-in Day for a given Vacation Period and ends sixty (60) days prior to the Check-in Day. It follows the Home Resort Reservation Period for a given Vacation Period and precedes the Network Options Period. During the Network Float Period, all Network Members must compete with other Network Members for reservations on a first-come, first-served basis for a reservation for any available Vacation Period that the Network Member has sufficient StarOptions to reserve. Due to the automatic reservation of Reserved Periods as described in Section 4.2.a(2), the availability of such Vacation Periods may be limited.
*Network Members also will compete with Network Operator for reservations during the Network Float Period with respect to Network Operator's rights to make reservations for bulk banking for external exchange and anticipating Network Member demand to access the Starwood Preferred Guest Program as discussed above.”*_


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Ok so going through governing documents I would love some clarification on this stuff and to hear your thoughts. I see vistana East vacation club consists of Bella/Key West, HRA, and WSJ. Each of these has their own verbiage of being part of the club. Here is what it says for Key West SVV: I assume this is just the “mandatory” aspect.
> 
> “_Key West. Key West will be sold on a fee title basis. The fee simple title to the Key West property will be submitted to the condominium form of ownership. Units in Key West are being sold subject to a vacation ownership plan. Under the Club Resort vacation ownership plan for Key West, fee title to a VOI, consisting of an undivided 1/52nd interest in the Owner's Unit as tenant in common with the other Owners of VOIs in that Unit, is conveyed to a Purchaser. A Unit is committed to the Club Resort vacation ownership plan on the recording by the Developer of the first deed to a VOI in such Unit, which first deed will also designate the specific VOI being conveyed in that Unit. Title to VOIs will be transferred to Purchasers by a special warranty deed pursuant to the terms of a purchase agreement.
> As described above and as set forth in the Club Resort Affiliation Agreement for Key West, membership in the Club is an inseparable part of each Club Resort VOI in Key West. Therefore, when a Purchaser acquires a Club Resort VOI in Key West, the Purchaser automatically becomes a Club Member.” _
> 
> Here is what is said regarding the Club, which is different than the network. The network which is the VSN is just an exchange. Now that there will be another exchange I assume that mandatory club members must have access to that exchange as well? Here is what it says:
> 
> _“The Club currently is affiliated with the Vistana Signature Network, an exchange program under Florida law, pursuant to a Network Affiliation Agreement. Not all of the Network Resorts are Club Resorts. At Club Resorts, all owners are required to be Club Members. Only the Club Resorts are component sites of the Club multisite vacation ownership plan under Florida law. Subject to availability and pursuant to the Network Rules for the Vistana East Vacation Club, all Network Members will have the opportunity to reserve accommodations and related facilities located at their Home Resort and other Network Resorts, if any, that are affiliated with the Network from time to time.
> Pursuant to the Network Affiliation Agreement for the Club, Club Operator also has contracted with Network Operator for Network Operator to perform certain obligations and duties of Club Operator under each Club Affiliation Agreement, including the operation of the reservation system for the Club.”_
> 
> Last but not least, Does this give MVW the right to take units from the VSN to place into the DC exchange? does this silence the “MVW can’t take inventory from the VSN and put it into the DCE” crowd? Or is this for interval bulk deposits? It could be a case for funding the DCE considering the DCE is an external exchange. ITS about to get real if that’s the case. If the DCE is not considered an external exchange and is a network exchange like the VSN, how could they keep club members out of converting?
> 
> _“d. Network Float Period. The Network Float Period begins eight (8) months prior to the Check-in Day for a given Vacation Period and ends sixty (60) days prior to the Check-in Day. It follows the Home Resort Reservation Period for a given Vacation Period and precedes the Network Options Period. During the Network Float Period, all Network Members must compete with other Network Members for reservations on a first-come, first-served basis for a reservation for any available Vacation Period that the Network Member has sufficient StarOptions to reserve. Due to the automatic reservation of Reserved Periods as described in Section 4.2.a(2), the availability of such Vacation Periods may be limited.
> *Network Members also will compete with Network Operator for reservations during the Network Float Period with respect to Network Operator's rights to make reservations for bulk banking for external exchange and anticipating Network Member demand to access the Starwood Preferred Guest Program as discussed above.”*_


I think the last item gives them the ability to anticipate how much inventory may be used for external exchange. That may be II, SPG (now Bonvoy) point conversion and perhaps in the future the DC program. If they anticipate 20% utilization for all of these things, they can take that 20% during the Network Float Period. That is of course my non legal interpretation.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I think the last item gives them the ability to anticipate how much inventory may be used for external exchange. That may be II, SPG (now Bonvoy) point conversion and perhaps in the future the DC program. If they anticipate 20% utilization for all of these things, they can take that 20% during the Network Float Period. That is of course my non legal interpretation.


Are there multiple clubs? What benefit if any is there regarding the Vistana East Vacation Club?


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> How would they eliminate SOs for mandatory resale owners? Wouldn’t that be impossible? They might grandfather in current mandatory resales owners and do this with new resale owners, I assume.




I agree that the fine print might possibly suggest that. However, they will have trouble selling points at $13 per point and 65c MF/point when one can buy Kierland and WKORV weeks as point equivalents at a lower purchase price and substantially lower MFs per point. When you consider it from that point of view, I can't see them letting all mandatory weeks in automatically both now and going forward. 

It'd be one thing to do it for all developer and requalified purchases, another to include all current resale mandatory as a one-time "grandfathering", but including all resale mandatory going forward kills their sales... - there is no conceivable way that would happen. Convincing resale owners to pay $30K+ for DC points (that they buy for $2/point at ROFR) to allow then enroll resale weeks is a lucrative business.


----------



## Venter

_'Pursuant to the Network Affiliation Agreement'. _To me not being qualified in legalese this means that the agreement could also be revoked or that if there is a new 'network' that a new agreement will have to be made.  Nothing says that it *must *be incorporated.
_

_


----------



## daviator

Venter said:


> _'Pursuant to the Network Affiliation Agreement'. _To me not being qualified in legalese this means that the agreement could also be revoked or that if there is a new 'network' that a new agreement will have to be made.  Nothing says that it *must *be incorporated.


Yes, the devil's in the details, and one of the key details is what is in that “Network Affiliation Agreement”, who are the signatories to that agreement, and under what circumstances can it be changed?  Is this an agreement between the various VOAs at the properties?  Or between Vistana and each property?  Did changes to this need to be approved by each property's VOA?  

The problem for us may be that the whole VSN scheme is built on a web of essentially internal contracts which owners don’t get to see and which MVW now controls and can possibly modify at will. They can’t change what’s in the deeds, they can’t change what’s in the contracts with existing owners, but they can (probably) change all those internal agreements that lay out the mechanics of the program.


----------



## sail27bill

I own both and am very happy that Marriott and Vistana merged as there are benefits to both systems.  Marriott has more resorts and the ability to use DC points to book is easy although very expensive.  Vistana has limited resorts but availability to book for a different size, location and number of days at 8 months was what initially sold me on Starwood/Vistana many years ago.  Although Vistana had inventory available at 8 months, there wasn't always the 2 bedroom I needed. Interval has been great to help solve this issue with Starwood preference.  I have snagged trades that would have cost more options in Vistana. 

In terms of "quality" I think it is resort specific.  The Westin Maui was gorgeous (we almost bought there) however SBP, SVV and Harborside (the last 2 I own incidentally) the quality I found below Marriott resorts.  And I have been to about half of the Marriott resorts in the US. The ability to rent points to me is the best part of owning Marriott.  Yes it is expensive but knowing my plans far out is more important as I am locked into the school schedule for the next couple of years. 

I bought a limited amount in DC to try the system out and so far it has worked exactly as I hoped.  However, the ability to convert all of my ownership to Bonvoy points if I choose to (had to during Covid which was nice as I used for hotel stays) and to get back a week from Interval that I deposited when I decided I wanted the week back was really easy with Vistana. I see no loss with the merger (with the exception of the IT issues) as there is more choice now.  To me, I do not believe that SVN will go away for those that own it. Resale mandatory I believe will still have the SVN ability while developer will have both.

I enjoy reading all the different perspectives and the knowledge gained from each of you.  Thankful all these years later that I found Tug and this amazing community.


----------



## Bill R

CPNY said:


> Ok so going through governing documents I would love some clarification on this stuff and to hear your thoughts. I see vistana East vacation club consists of Bella/Key West, HRA, and WSJ. Each of these has their own verbiage of being part of the club. Here is what it says for Key West SVV: I assume this is just the “mandatory” aspect.
> 
> “_Key West. Key West will be sold on a fee title basis. The fee simple title to the Key West property will be submitted to the condominium form of ownership. Units in Key West are being sold subject to a vacation ownership plan. Under the Club Resort vacation ownership plan for Key West, fee title to a VOI, consisting of an undivided 1/52nd interest in the Owner's Unit as tenant in common with the other Owners of VOIs in that Unit, is conveyed to a Purchaser. A Unit is committed to the Club Resort vacation ownership plan on the recording by the Developer of the first deed to a VOI in such Unit, which first deed will also designate the specific VOI being conveyed in that Unit. Title to VOIs will be transferred to Purchasers by a special warranty deed pursuant to the terms of a purchase agreement.
> As described above and as set forth in the Club Resort Affiliation Agreement for Key West, membership in the Club is an inseparable part of each Club Resort VOI in Key West. Therefore, when a Purchaser acquires a Club Resort VOI in Key West, the Purchaser automatically becomes a Club Member.” _
> 
> Here is what is said regarding the Club, which is different than the network. The network which is the VSN is just an exchange. Now that there will be another exchange I assume that mandatory club members must have access to that exchange as well? Here is what it says:
> 
> _“The Club currently is affiliated with the Vistana Signature Network, an exchange program under Florida law, pursuant to a Network Affiliation Agreement. Not all of the Network Resorts are Club Resorts. At Club Resorts, all owners are required to be Club Members. Only the Club Resorts are component sites of the Club multisite vacation ownership plan under Florida law. Subject to availability and pursuant to the Network Rules for the Vistana East Vacation Club, all Network Members will have the opportunity to reserve accommodations and related facilities located at their Home Resort and other Network Resorts, if any, that are affiliated with the Network from time to time.
> Pursuant to the Network Affiliation Agreement for the Club, Club Operator also has contracted with Network Operator for Network Operator to perform certain obligations and duties of Club Operator under each Club Affiliation Agreement, including the operation of the reservation system for the Club.”_
> 
> Last but not least, Does this give MVW the right to take units from the VSN to place into the DC exchange? does this silence the “MVW can’t take inventory from the VSN and put it into the DCE” crowd? Or is this for interval bulk deposits? It could be a case for funding the DCE considering the DCE is an external exchange. ITS about to get real if that’s the case. If the DCE is not considered an external exchange and is a network exchange like the VSN, how could they keep club members out of converting?
> 
> _“d. Network Float Period. The Network Float Period begins eight (8) months prior to the Check-in Day for a given Vacation Period and ends sixty (60) days prior to the Check-in Day. It follows the Home Resort Reservation Period for a given Vacation Period and precedes the Network Options Period. During the Network Float Period, all Network Members must compete with other Network Members for reservations on a first-come, first-served basis for a reservation for any available Vacation Period that the Network Member has sufficient StarOptions to reserve. Due to the automatic reservation of Reserved Periods as described in Section 4.2.a(2), the availability of such Vacation Periods may be limited.
> *Network Members also will compete with Network Operator for reservations during the Network Float Period with respect to Network Operator's rights to make reservations for bulk banking for external exchange and anticipating Network Member demand to access the Starwood Preferred Guest Program as discussed above.”*_


Sorry to be dense, but Key West?  In VSN?  Now aware of that, don't see it...  Don't see that in MVC either.


----------



## MICROZE

Bill R said:


> Sorry to be dense, but Key West?  In VSN?  Now aware of that, don't see it...  Don't see that in MVC either.


I believe Bella & Key West were NAMES of Phases/Sections within the SVV in Orlando and not a location on the map [southern-most point of mainland US].


----------



## alexadeparis

Bill R said:


> Sorry to be dense, but Key West?  In VSN?  Now aware of that, don't see it...  Don't see that in MVC either.


It’s a phase of the Sheraton Vistana Villages, not the real Key West, don’t get excited.

that having been said, I have been looking over the picture of the paper again that I posted last week, and the sales person had whited out the section that said “VSE Enrolled” on my unqualified resale, (the one where they hand wrote in “resale”) but in the next column entitled “VSE enroll eligible” they didn’t white out the “Y”. I feel like the whited out column was also a “Y” and that could be the key as to whether or not the resale will be pulled into the MVC enrollment also. The only reason I can think of to white that particular column out was to then tell me that one needed to be retro’d into VSN to be eligible to go to MVC, when it probably really doesn’t. Thoughts? I can post the photo of the ENTIRE sheet but it may be a bit blurry.


----------



## Eric B

alexadeparis said:


> It’s a phase of the Sheraton Vistana Villages, not the real Key West, don’t get excited.
> 
> that having been said, I have been looking over the picture of the paper again that I posted last week, and the sales person had whited out the section that said “VSE Enrolled” on my unqualified resale, (the one where they hand wrote in “resale”) but in the next column entitled “VSE enroll eligible” they didn’t white out the “Y”. I feel like the whited out column was also a “Y” and that could be the key as to whether or not the resale will be pulled into the MVC enrollment also. The only reason I can think of to white that particular column out was to then tell me that one needed to be retro’d into VSN to be eligible to go to MVC, when it probably really doesn’t. Thoughts? I can post the photo of the ENTIRE sheet but it may be a bit blurry.



The white out on that one was the one in the third line, right?  I had noticed that and mentioned it in a post; completely agree with your interpretation, though I’m waiting for official information about the program to come out, of course.


----------



## alexadeparis

Eric B said:


> The white out on that one was the one in the third line, right?  I had noticed that and mentioned it in a post; completely agree with your interpretation, though I’m waiting for official information about the program to come out, of course.


Yes, exactly, the third line. I’m willing to wait and see on that one, worst case, if that one can’t come in for free or low cost, I will always have guaranteed SO to use to extend my WSJ trips (because those units aren’t likely to be converted to MVC DC either).


----------



## daviator

alexadeparis said:


> It’s a phase of the Sheraton Vistana Villages, not the real Key West, don’t get excited.
> 
> that having been said, I have been looking over the picture of the paper again that I posted last week, and the sales person had whited out the section that said “VSE Enrolled” on my unqualified resale, (the one where they hand wrote in “resale”) but in the next column entitled “VSE enroll eligible” they didn’t white out the “Y”. I feel like the whited out column was also a “Y” and that could be the key as to whether or not the resale will be pulled into the MVC enrollment also. The only reason I can think of to white that particular column out was to then tell me that one needed to be retro’d into VSN to be eligible to go to MVC, when it probably really doesn’t. Thoughts? I can post the photo of the ENTIRE sheet but it may be a bit blurry.


I was wondering why they still made “white out” and now I realize that the main market must be lying timeshare sales people…


----------



## Eric B

alexadeparis said:


> Yes, exactly, the third line. I’m willing to wait and see on that one, worst case, if that one can’t come in for free or low cost, I will always have guaranteed SO to use to extend my WSJ trips (because those units aren’t likely to be converted to MVC DC either).



Best case, though, is that it counts towards what tier you wind up being, while you still extend your WSJ trips.


----------



## CPNY

alexadeparis said:


> It’s a phase of the Sheraton Vistana Villages, not the real Key West, don’t get excited.
> 
> that having been said, I have been looking over the picture of the paper again that I posted last week, and the sales person had whited out the section that said “VSE Enrolled” on my unqualified resale, (the one where they hand wrote in “resale”) but in the next column entitled “VSE enroll eligible” they didn’t white out the “Y”. I feel like the whited out column was also a “Y” and that could be the key as to whether or not the resale will be pulled into the MVC enrollment also. The only reason I can think of to white that particular column out was to then tell me that one needed to be retro’d into VSN to be eligible to go to MVC, when it probably really doesn’t. Thoughts? I can post the photo of the ENTIRE sheet but it may be a bit blurry.


As someone who photoshops things I saw the little outlines of a box and wondered what was covered up. The skeptic inside of me thought that exact thing you just said but quickly moved on. I noticed it when I went back to your picture before I looked up the governing documents. It’s extremely interesting and if they blocked it out with the intention of selling you more to retro something that doesn’t need to be retro is an all new low. Pathetic. We shall see.


----------



## robertk2012

The whole "soft" release is just to ambiguously sell more without making any real commitments to the new program.  If they feel like Mandatory resorts are too much of a bargain they can always start buying them up themselves.


----------



## WatsonC2

Re whether resale resorts will be eligible to pay the fee to use Marriott is an interesting question but a lever they could likely flip at will (ie start out requiring only retro'd weeks to do it unless of course the new program goes over like a lead ballon and they need to allow non-retro'd resales, perhaps by resort to do it).  My guess is it will start out somewhat restrictive and open up if they don't get the inventory they seek.


----------



## jabberwocky

alexadeparis said:


> Yes, exactly, the third line. I’m willing to wait and see on that one, worst case, if that one can’t come in for free or low cost, I will always have guaranteed SO to use to extend my WSJ trips (because those units aren’t likely to be converted to MVC DC either).


If it was not eligible for VSN that column would have had an “N”. So the only logical inference can be that they did not want you to see the “Y”. Just as a point of comparison - our mandatory resale had a “Y” next to it in that same column.

Whether this means all VSN mandatory weeks will be eligible or not remains to be seen. But for us we didn’t buy to trade that week for something else. We bought it to use.


----------



## DanCali

robertk2012 said:


> The whole "soft" release is just to ambiguously sell more without making any real commitments to the new program.  If they feel like Mandatory resorts are too much of a bargain they can always start buying them up themselves.




May work for some but there is no ROFR for WKV (and HRA)


----------



## dioxide45

robertk2012 said:


> The whole "soft" release is just to ambiguously sell more without making any real commitments to the new program.  If they feel like Mandatory resorts are too much of a bargain they can always start buying them up themselves.


I think they have already done a lot of that. Mandatory SVV resale weeks are a lot rarer these days than they were just a few years ago. I think they took a lot of them back through trade ins as they somehow convinced people that Sheraton Flex was a better product.


----------



## robertk2012

DanCali said:


> May work for some but there is no ROFR for WKV (and HRA)


They can buy whatever they want....


----------



## robertk2012

dioxide45 said:


> I think they have already done a lot of that. Mandatory SVV resale weeks are a lot rarer these days than they were just a few years ago. I think they took a lot of them back through trade ins as they somehow convinced people that Sheraton Flex was a better product.


I saw many people just giving them back.


----------



## dioxide45

robertk2012 said:


> They can buy whatever they want....


They can, but generally the timeshare companies tend to avoid the wild west of the open timeshare resale market. You simply won't see them out there bidding on timeshares listed on eBay.


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> They can, but generally the timeshare companies tend to avoid the wild west of the open timeshare resale market. You simply won't see them out there bidding on timeshares listed on eBay.



When Wyndham was doing it they used third parties to buy for them.


----------



## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> When Wyndham was doing it they used third parties to buy for them.


Why did Wyndham stop doing it?


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> Why did Wyndham stop doing it?



I'm not sure whether they have stopped.  There were some postings about them doing that a few years ago.


----------



## robertk2012

dioxide45 said:


> They can, but generally the timeshare companies tend to avoid the wild west of the open timeshare resale market. You simply won't see them out there bidding on timeshares listed on eBay.


That doesn’t stop them from offering programs to buy them back.


----------



## dioxide45

robertk2012 said:


> That doesn’t stop them from offering programs to buy them back.


Certainly don't disagree, Marriott offered buybacks shortly after they initially rolled out the DC program. After several years that turned into deedbacks with no compensation. Deedbacks, ROFR and takebacs though are really a drop in the bucket when compared to what the sales machine can actually sell.


----------



## robertk2012

Hence the reason they piled all of crap into trusts that they could then market as a "better" alternative. 



dioxide45 said:


> Certainly don't disagree, Marriott offered buybacks shortly after they initially rolled out the DC program. After several years that turned into deedbacks with no compensation. Deedbacks, ROFR and takebacs though are really a drop in the bucket when compared to what the sales machine can actually sell.


----------



## SueDonJ

I have a question for anyone who's already been or will be going to a sales presentation where this soft launch is happening, either at a Marriott or Vistana sales office - which is why I'm duplicate-posting this in both forums - 

If you were to choose to purchase now, prior to the official launch, are you able to immediately elect Destination Club Points from any owned intervals which are being enrolled* simultaneously with your new purchase?

*"Enrolled" meaning that your existing previously-owned intervals will be eligible for annual exchange to DC Points.

I'm trying to think through what the official launch might look like as far as availability metrics on the day of the official launch, specifically if Vistana intervals that are newly-eligible for DC Points election will be immediately available to all DC Exchange Company members on the launch date, due to DC Points elections having been processed immediately with the simultaneous purchase.


----------



## daviator

SueDonJ said:


> I have a question for anyone who's already been or will be going to a sales presentation where this soft launch is happening, either at a Marriott or Vistana sales office - which is why I'm duplicate-posting this in both forums -
> 
> If you were to choose to purchase now, prior to the official launch, are you able to immediately elect Destination Club Points from any owned intervals which are being enrolled* simultaneously with your new purchase?
> 
> *"Enrolled" meaning that your existing previously-owned intervals will be eligible for annual exchange to DC Points.
> 
> I'm trying to think through what the official launch might look like as far as availability metrics on the day of the official launch, specifically if Vistana intervals that are newly-eligible for DC Points election will be immediately available to all DC Exchange Company members on the launch date, due to DC Points elections having been processed immediately with the simultaneous purchase.


I will do an owner update at WDW in about ten days and will ask, but I imagine somebody else may already know and can report sooner. But what do you mean by “intervals?”  VOIs?  I have not heard the word “interval” applied to timeshare ownership (except for Interval International, which isn’t relevant here.). I assume you mean ownerships, but if you mean something else, please clarify.


----------



## tschwa2

I'll admit I may have missed this answer, so sorry if it has been asked before.
I am assuming the $215 vsn consolidated program fee would be additional to the annual fee if you also have Marriot points or an enrolled legacy week.  Are they saying that the $215 fee for VSN eligible weeks would be an additional fee over the regular VSN fee if you have both mandatory resale VSN weeks and eligible weeks?  or would $215 cover both but the extras like II free exchanges and no fee for cancellations, etc not apply to mandatory non eligible weeks?  So if you owned a combination or eligible and non eligible Marriot and Vistana weeks you could conceivably have and pay a Marriott VC annual fee for enrolled week(s), a personal Interval account for non enrolled Marriott weeks plus non vsn vistana weeks, and then an annual eligible VSN fee plus another VSN fee for your non eligible VSN resale weeks.


----------



## kozykritter

tschwa2 said:


> I'll admit I may have missed this answer, so sorry if it has been asked before.
> I am assuming the $215 vsn consolidated program fee would be additional to the annual fee if you also have Marriot points or an enrolled legacy week.  Are they saying that the $215 fee for VSN eligible weeks would be an additional fee over the regular VSN fee if you have both mandatory resale VSN weeks and eligible weeks?  or would $215 cover both but the extras like II free exchanges and no fee for cancellations, etc not apply to mandatory non eligible weeks?  So if you owned a combination or eligible and non eligible Marriot and Vistana weeks you could conceivably have and pay a Marriott VC annual fee for enrolled week(s), a personal Interval account for non enrolled Marriott weeks plus non vsn vistana weeks, and then an annual eligible VSN fee plus another VSN fee for your non eligible VSN resale weeks.


You didn't miss an answer. These types of questions have been bounced around here without any kind of clear confirmation so far.


----------



## DavidnRobin

daviator said:


> I will do an owner update at WDW in about ten days and will ask, but I imagine somebody else may already know and can report sooner. But what do you mean by “intervals?” VOIs? I have not heard the word “interval” applied to timeshare ownership (except for Interval International, which isn’t relevant here.). I assume you mean ownerships, but if you mean something else, please clarify.



VOI = Vacation Ownership Interest (Interval)
aka as a week at a resort that is deeded.

This is what Vistana/Starwood calls them - also in acronym list

[Edited]since it seem to be an issue. 
The idea is that is was a contract defined set of TS time 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kozykritter

DavidnRobin said:


> VOI = Vacation Ownership Interval
> aka as a week at a resort that is deeded.
> 
> This is what Vistana/Starwood calls them - also in acronym list
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just checked and Vistana defines it on their website as Vacation Ownership Interest so probably we should update the acronym list if it says Interval instead. I know back when I sold Starwood Vacation Ownership they also used that same Interest definition.


----------



## daviator

DavidnRobin said:


> VOI = Vacation Ownership Interval
> aka as a week at a resort that is deeded.
> 
> This is what Vistana/Starwood calls them - also in acronym list
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it's always been Vacation Ownership Interest on the Vistana side.  My documents back to 2003 define it that way.  First I've heard of a VO "Interval."  Anyway, I'll consider myself edumacated.


----------



## SueDonJ

SueDonJ said:


> ... If you were to choose to purchase now, prior to the official launch, are you able to immediately elect Destination Club Points from any owned intervals which are being enrolled* simultaneously with your new purchase? ...





daviator said:


> I will do an owner update at WDW in about ten days and will ask, but I imagine somebody else may already know and can report sooner. But what do you mean by “intervals?”  VOIs?  I have not heard the word “interval” applied to timeshare ownership (except for Interval International, which isn’t relevant here.). I assume you mean ownerships, but if you mean something else, please clarify.


I'm sorry, have probably made this more confusing than it need be. "Interval" meaning basically a single reservation period, whether it's in Weeks or Points. Weeks are easy to figure out but Points, not so much, especially for me not knowing anything about how Vistana's Flex Points system works.

Where I want to go with this is to try to figure out what Vistana inventory might be available on Day One of the official rollout of the Vistana/Destination Club integration in the Destination Club Exchange Company, and specifically if any of it will be from people who are purchasing DC Points during this "soft launch" period and are already able to "pre" elect (in advance of the official rollout date) DC Points for the Weeks/Flex Points products that they already own.


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## jabberwocky

SueDonJ said:


> I'm sorry, have probably made this more confusing than it need be. "Interval" meaning basically a single reservation period, whether it's in Weeks or Points. Weeks are easy to figure out but Points, not so much, especially for me not knowing anything about how Vistana's Flex Points system works.
> 
> Where I want to go with this is to try to figure out what Vistana inventory might be available on Day One of the official rollout of the Vistana/Destination Club integration in the Destination Club Exchange Company, and specifically if any of it will be from people who are purchasing DC Points during this "soft launch" period and are already able to "pre" elect (in advance of the official rollout date) DC Points for the Weeks/Flex Points products that they already own.


No. You cannot elect yet- even with a new purchase. They have not yet officially released the online “tool” which will allow this to happen.  Our salesperson a couple of weeks ago (Vistana) said it would be made available this summer for owners to elect their 2023 weeks.

I don’t know if they will put in some “estimated” deposits for booking on day 1. Anything else will likely be Vistana owned that they deposit.


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## SueDonJ

jabberwocky said:


> No. You cannot elect yet- even with a new purchase. They have not yet officially released the online “tool” which will allow this to happen.  Our salesperson a couple of weeks ago (Vistana) said it would be made available this summer for owners to elect their 2023 weeks.
> 
> I don’t know if they will put in some “estimated” deposits for booking on day 1. Anything else will likely be Vistana owned that they deposit.


Thanks! That's exactly what I was looking for.


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## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> I'm sorry, have probably made this more confusing than it need be. "Interval" meaning basically a single reservation period, whether it's in Weeks or Points. Weeks are easy to figure out but Points, not so much, especially for me not knowing anything about how Vistana's Flex Points system works.
> 
> Where I want to go with this is to try to figure out what Vistana inventory might be available on Day One of the official rollout of the Vistana/Destination Club integration in the Destination Club Exchange Company, and specifically if any of it will be from people who are purchasing DC Points during this "soft launch" period and are already able to "pre" elect (in advance of the official rollout date) DC Points for the Weeks/Flex Points products that they already own.



if I remember correctly, Marriott allowed resale weeks owners the ability to enroll if they were purchased prior to the announcement date in 2010. What was the criteria ? The deed had to be recorded before that date? Contracts signed before the date? Or Marriott had to complete the transfer? I anticipate a lot of resale activity in the Vistana mandatory market expecting a similar enrollment via a fee or just wanting to play it safe. Personally, I dont feel it will matter.BUT I do have a resale closing currently, waiting on deed prep and recording.


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## vacationtime1

CPNY said:


> if I remember correctly, Marriott allowed resale weeks owners the ability to enroll if they were purchased prior to the announcement date in 2010. What was the criteria ? The deed had to be recorded before that date? Contracts signed before the date? Or Marriott had to complete the transfer? I anticipate a lot of resale activity in the Vistana mandatory market expecting a similar enrollment via a fee or just wanting to play it safe. Personally, I dont feel it will matter.BUT I do have a resale closing currently, waiting on deed prep and recording.


The relevant date in 2010 was the date Marriott passed on ROFR.  I know this from personal experience.

We were in the process of purchasing a Kauai Beach Club unit.  We passed ROFR before the announcement / cut-off date but the deed did not record until afterwards.  We were p*ssed at the time (we were trying to hurry the deal along, unsuccessfully), but Marriott included the unit when we later joined the DC.


----------



## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> if I remember correctly, Marriott allowed resale weeks owners the ability to enroll if they were purchased prior to the announcement date in 2010. What was the criteria ? The deed had to be recorded before that date? Contracts signed before the date? Or Marriott had to complete the transfer? I anticipate a lot of resale activity in the Vistana mandatory market expecting a similar enrollment via a fee or just wanting to play it safe. Personally, I dont feel it will matter.


From the FAQ that's linked in my signature:
>>_~~ MVCD Introduction Timeline ~~_

6/20/10 - At the MVCD introduction, Marriott immediately halted developer-direct sales of their MVCI Weeks product and offered DC Trust Points for purchase at the US resort and sales sites; and, offered the DC Enrollment option to existing Weeks Owners of the US and Caribbean resorts. Direct sales of the Weeks product continued only at Caribbean and European resorts.
6/18/12 - The MVCD program was introduced on a limited basis at the European resort sites, allowing the DC Enrollment option for all existing European MVCI Weeks. DC Trust Points are not yet available for purchase at the European resorts; Weeks are still available at the onsite sales centers.
12/27/12 - Developer-direct sales of MVCI Weeks were halted and purchases of DC Trust Points began at the Caribbean resorts.<<
I'm pretty sure that at every Marriott introductory date, only Weeks which were closed and active in owners' accounts prior to the dates were eligible for enrollment. I vaguely remember people being - justifiably - upset because they had resales in process and no notice had been given in advance of the launches. With Vistana it's different because they've given at least some kind of warning, but I wouldn't even try to guess if this soft launch period is a grace period for people to try to get some Vistana resales closed prior to the official launch, especially with the delays that are currently being seen.

Enrollment, though, is a different animal from the annual election to exchange enrolled Weeks for DC Points, and my question is related to elections. Jabberwocky seems to have answered it, that elections can't be pre-set or transacted until after the official launch.


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## DavidnRobin

LOL
Interest (over Interval) is better and seems more appropriate with the advent of points. I did the acronym pre-Flex (Starwood).
Somebody volunteering to do another acronym list? Especially with MWVC merge. Heck … I don’t even know what MWVC means.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vacationtime1

SueDonJ said:


> From the FAQ that's linked in my signature:
> >>_~~ MVCD Introduction Timeline ~~_
> 
> 6/20/10 - At the MVCD introduction, Marriott immediately halted developer-direct sales of their MVCI Weeks product and offered DC Trust Points for purchase at the US resort and sales sites; and, offered the DC Enrollment option to existing Weeks Owners of the US and Caribbean resorts. Direct sales of the Weeks product continued only at Caribbean and European resorts.
> 6/18/12 - The MVCD program was introduced on a limited basis at the European resort sites, allowing the DC Enrollment option for all existing European MVCI Weeks. DC Trust Points are not yet available for purchase at the European resorts; Weeks are still available at the onsite sales centers.
> 12/27/12 - Developer-direct sales of MVCI Weeks were halted and purchases of DC Trust Points began at the Caribbean resorts.<<
> *I'm pretty sure that at every Marriott introductory date, only Weeks which were closed and active in owners' accounts prior to the dates were eligible for enrollment. *I vaguely remember people being - justifiably - upset because they had resales in process and no notice had been given in advance of the launches. With Vistana it's different because they've given at least some kind of warning, but I wouldn't even try to guess if this soft launch period is a grace period for people to try to get some Vistana resales closed prior to the official launch, especially with the delays that are currently being seen.
> 
> Enrollment, though, is a different animal from the annual election to exchange enrolled Weeks for DC Points, and my question is related to elections. Jabberwocky seems to have answered it, that elections can't be pre-set or transacted until after the official launch.


The relevant date for qualification in 2010 was actually the date Marriott waived ROFR.  See my post #193.

I just re-checked my old file.  Marriott's ROFR waiver on our KBC purchase was signed in May, 2010 (I have a copy).  The sellers didn't sign the deed until 6/19/2010 and the deed wasn't recorded until 7/13/2010.  But they let me enroll the unit into the DC (I was surprised; I expected them to enroll only our Waiohai unit).

Obviously this is not precedent.  But anyone closing a resale deal near the deadline should be aware.


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## Mcrobot

Just went to a WSJ owners update Friday.    They shared the conversion rates for both Nanea and WSJ would be higher than the other resorts, at 1:32 ratio.      They also stated they would stop selling deeds at the end of this month and switch to DC points…has anyone else heard this or is this just more sales babble?


----------



## daviator

Mcrobot said:


> Just went to a WSJ owners update Friday.    They shared the conversion rates for both Nanea and WSJ would be higher than the other resorts, at 1:32 ratio.      They also stated they would stop selling deeds at the end of this month and switch to DC points…has anyone else heard this or is this just more sales babble?


Just to be clear, a 1:32 ratio is a LOWER (poorer) ratio for owners.  It means you need 32 SOs to get one DP.  I thought I'd read that Nanea was going to be more like 1:26 or 1:27.  I would consider a 1:32 to be pretty insulting for Nanea and WSJ given what some of the comparable Marriott timeshare resorts "cost" to reserve with DPs.  I'd expect those two properties to have the strongest conversion ratios, so if 1:32 is the best, then I fear to learn what my WKORV and others will be worth.

I wouldn't be surprised if my WDW weeks were 1:32, which will not compel me to enroll them.

There is so much sales babble.  I will be doing an owner update later this month and will report back on what they tell me.


----------



## WatsonC2

daviator said:


> Just to be clear, a 1:32 ratio is a LOWER (poorer) ratio for owners.  It means you need 32 SOs to get one DP.  I thought I'd read that Nanea was going to be more like 1:26 or 1:27.  I would consider a 1:32 to be pretty insulting for Nanea and WSJ given what some of the comparable Marriott timeshare resorts "cost" to reserve with DPs.  I'd expect those two properties to have the strongest conversion ratios, so if 1:32 is the best, then I fear to learn what my WKORV and others will be worth.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if my WDW weeks were 1:32, which will not compel me to enroll them.
> 
> There is so much sales babble.  I will be doing an owner update later this month and will report back on what they tell me.


This is why I’m not concerned about the resale vs developer weeks being eligible for this new program.  If the ratios don’t achieve the desired result they will need to make adjustments.  It’s likely the “soft launch” is intended to test the numbers before finalizing what they need to do to implement it.


----------



## Mcrobot

Yep.  They told us that non-Nanea and Non-WSJ would be WORSE than this, as in 1:35 or 1:38.    Guess we’ll see when this becomes official.    



daviator said:


> Just to be clear, a 1:32 ratio is a LOWER (poorer) ratio for owners.  It means you need 32 SOs to get one DP.  I thought I'd read that Nanea was going to be more like 1:26 or 1:27.  I would consider a 1:32 to be pretty insulting for Nanea and WSJ given what some of the comparable Marriott timeshare resorts "cost" to reserve with DPs.  I'd expect those two properties to have the strongest conversion ratios, so if 1:32 is the best, then I fear to learn what my WKORV and others will be worth.


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## Eric B

Mcrobot said:


> Yep.  They told us that non-Nanea and Non-WSJ would be WORSE than this, as in 1:35 or 1:38.    Guess we’ll see when this becomes official.



If true, that would make the “skim” on Vistana close to 30% based on the pictures of the point costs in pictures that have been posted.


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## robertk2012

And they won’t have to worry about me buying anything from them.  


Eric B said:


> If true, that would make the “skim” on Vistana close to 30% based on the pictures of the point costs in pictures that have been posted.


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## CPNY

Eric B said:


> If true, that would make the “skim” on Vistana close to 30% based on the pictures of the point costs in pictures that have been posted.


This is why I feel like mandatory resale weeks will be part of the conversion opportunity. Give everyone a taste of booking in the DC Exchange, leaving them wanting more. I think they will get more owners to buy points rather than excluding owners and making them start all over with larger point purchases.


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## DanCali

Eric B said:


> If true, that would make the “skim” on Vistana close to 30% based on the pictures of the point costs in pictures that have been posted.



This is probably far from the actual skim.

I wrote a detailed explanation in post 727 in this thread about how skim should be viewed (and the 1 Like it got was from you!)

Without repeating that long post, I'll just say that, the way I see it, the skim should be computed relative to the *average* points required to book a week in your season. It would not be fair to compare it to the most expensive week in your season. When you use the "average points" for a week in the season that means that if all owners converted to points then all the points would be enough to book that entire season. Anything less is "skim". Anything more would not be feasible and probably not legal...

Here is an illustrative example for 2BR WKV Platinum. The deeded Platinum season runs from Week 51 to week 21 the following year. The points required to book those weeks are (from what I can tell, based on blurry photos here and I also may be off by a week here and there):


Week 513800 points to bookWeek 525400 points to bookWeeks 1-22950 points to bookWeek 33800 points to bookWeeks 4-145400 points to bookWeeks 15-173800 points to bookWeeks 18-212950 points to book

So, you have 23 weeks in the season. The average points required to book a week in this season is 4413. It converts allegedly to 4050, so the skim is about 8.2%. This would be slightly higher than the traditional 5%-7% on the Marriott weeks.

But note that you can still "come out ahead" if you convert to points because you can book maybe 8-10 nights with 4050 elected points during some weeks (1, 2 & 18-21) in your season. Can you call that "anti-skim"? Not really... - since the "fair value" is around 4413 points, anything less they offer, is "skim".

There are other reasons besides the 8% "skim" for a 2BR Platinum WKV owner to be pissed off though - namely that it's superior to own 2 one-bedroom units over the 2BR lockoff (which was not the case in Vistana) and also the inferior conversion value relative to rental value.


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## DanCali

CPNY said:


> This is why I feel like mandatory resale weeks will be part of the conversion opportunity. Give everyone a taste of booking in the DC Exchange, leaving them wanting more. I think they will get more owners to buy points rather than excluding owners and making them start all over with larger point purchases.




They had a pretty good gig convincing Marriott owners to spend $30K+ to enroll their weeks and buy points at the same time. They may try to do the same now. The difference is that most Vistana Owners are not necessarily starting out as Marriott loyalists, like the original MVCI weeks owners. Moreover, retros in the Vistana world started at $10K...


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## cubigbird

CPNY said:


> This is why I feel like mandatory resale weeks will be part of the conversion opportunity. Give everyone a taste of booking in the DC Exchange, leaving them wanting more. I think they will get more owners to buy points rather than excluding owners and making them start all over with larger point purchases.


They are going to have to churn as they don’t have any new inventory coming online.


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## TravelTime

As @sail27bill said, I think people who own both MVC DPs and mandatory Vistana are probably happy about the merger assuming they allow mandatory resorts to elect for DPs. To me, having the ability to use DPs for any resort I want in the new integrated system is awesome, esp if I can book at any of the new integrated system resorts at 13 months. Plus I assume we can still use the VSN if we like that better. I think the idea of “buying where you want to go” was a critical concept with the Vistana network. 

I think people who bought places that were cheaper but planned to use it for SOs at 8 months will not be happy with the new integrated system. People who bought at the low MF Vistana resorts probably will not get many DPs. If you own at an Orlando Vistana resort, you will probably not be getting many DPs if you elect DPs. So for these folks, the VSN will be better. OTOH, people who own in Hawaii, St John and probably Atlantis will likely be getting many DPs since those resorts are in demand and come with many SOs.

If you own both MVC DPs or enrolled MVC weeks and Vistana, it is a win win. It will get me up to chairman’s level. It will likely escalate other MVC/Vistana owners to the next level with all the combined DPs.


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## TravelTime

Here is another thing I wonder about. Could MVC be selective about which Vistana resorts (whether it’s mandatory or not) that they allow to elect for DPs? For example, MVC has so much Orlando inventory now. They do not need any more. In the new combined system, maybe they will not allow Orlando owners to elect DPs. OTOH, MVC needs more Maui inventory and I think Princeville inventory is also great for them even through it is not mandatory. I can’t imagine why they need to treat all Vistana owners the same whether it is a mandatory resort or now. If I were MVC, I would only let the desirable resorts that I need to elect DPs without purchasing a lot of DPs.


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## pchung6

TravelTime said:


> I can’t imagine why they need to treat all Vistana owners the same whether it is a mandatory resort or now. If I were MVC, I would only let the desirable resorts that I need to elect DPs without purchasing a lot of DPs.


You understand this will be the quickest way to piss off 80-85% of your potential customers, right? Either they are all in or they are all out is a well-run company would do. But with Marriott, who knows?


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## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> Here is another thing I wonder about. Could MVC be selective about which Vistana resorts (whether it’s mandatory or not) that they allow to elect for DPs? For example, MVC has so much Orlando inventory now. They do not need any more. In the new combined system, maybe they will not allow Orlando owners to elect DPs. OTOH, MVC needs more Maui inventory and I think Princeville inventory is also great for them even through it is not mandatory. I can’t imagine why they need to treat all Vistana owners the same whether it is a mandatory resort or now. If I were MVC, I would only let the desirable resorts that I need to elect DPs without purchasing a lot of DPs.


Any decent corporate attorney will advise that policies have to be consistent, otherwise they will be subjected to lawsuits.  MVC may be greedy but not stupid.


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## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> You understand this will be the quickest way to piss off 80-85% of your potential customers, right? Either they are all in or they are all out is a well-run company would do. But with Marriott, who knows?


Segregation was never a good idea.


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## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I think all the complaints about a new integrated system by people who only own Vistana should go over to the thread on the Vistana forum. Please do not come to the Marriott forum to complain. I would not go to the Wyndham forum to complain about Wyndham unless I owned there.



Not sure I have been seeing complaints, I see them more as concerns. People have been commenting on what the inner workings
The system may be. 

But you should really stop with the segregation. It could come across as “snobbish” and I know you’re not.


----------



## TravelTime

pchung6 said:


> You understand this will be the quickest way to piss off 80-85% of your potential customers, right? Either they are all in or they are all out is a well-run company would do. But with Marriott, who knows?



I doubt it since it will only affect a small percentage of resale owners and not 80-85% of customers.


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## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> Not sure I have been seeing complaints, I see them more as concerns. People have been commenting on what the inner workings
> The system may be.
> 
> But you should really stop with the segregation. It could come across as “snobbish” and I know you’re not.



I am just commenting on why I am happy with my ownership and the advantages of dual ownership. I am hypothesizing about what MVC might do. Everyone is hypothesizing. BTW, being a time share owner is not snobbish. If anything, it is embarrassing to admit being a time share owner to others outside of TUG.


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## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> Any decent corporate attorney will advise that policies have to be consistent, otherwise they will be subjected to lawsuits.  MVC may be greedy but not stupid.



I agree they will probably do this. I am just hypothesizing.


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## pchung6

TravelTime said:


> I doubt it since it will only affect a small percentage of resale owners and not 80-85% of customers.


Maybe I misunderstood. Didn’t you just say Marriott doesn’t need these Vistana Orlando owners and only want Nanea or KOR owners? I’m sure just SVV and SVR combined is already a lot of potential customers. Piss them off on day 1 of the new program is really not a good idea. But with Marriott, who knows.


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## kozykritter

TravelTime said:


> I agree they will probably do this. I am just hypothesizing. I am getting a little tired on the complaining by Vistana-only owners who come on the Marriott forum and whine.


This is the Vistana forum thread so better for you to post a message on the thread in the Marriott forum rather than here if you're trying to deter people posting over there.


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## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> Maybe I misunderstood. Didn’t you just say Marriott doesn’t need these Vistana Orlando owners and only want Nanea or KOR owners? I’m sure just SVV and SVR combined is already a lot of potential customers. Piss them off on day 1 of the new program is really not a good idea. But with Marriott, who knows.


I’ve been to every Marriott and Sheraton resort in Orlando and my favorite is SVR for the unique rooms. I love the skylights in the fountains sections. For the pools, I have to go Lakeshore? Then SVV, the Grand vista. Point is, Orlando is practically the birthplace of timeshares. Yes it’s overbuilt but it’s filled with owners who will buy timeshares!! Why else do you think Marriott got DVC back to interval! Hey, I’m a mixed owner with most of my ownerships coming from Orlando. Does that mean I wouldn’t buy DC points? No, I actually would…. If it made sense to me and the price was right. I love what I have today and I fear it will change. 90% of vistana owners are excited about the possibility of new resorts. Remember everyone…. TUG members are a step above the average owner.


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## CPNY

kozykritter said:


> This is the Vistana forum thread so better for you to post a message on the thread in the Marriott forum rather than here if you're trying to deter people posting over there.


Right! Lol I was going to say that but I’m so damn confused on what’s where when the titles are exactly the same


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## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I agree they will probably do this. I am just hypothesizing. I am getting a little tired on the complaining by Vistana-only owners who come on the Marriott forum and whine.


Only people complaining are the Marriott owners, complaining about vistana owners posing in the Marriott forum (this has been happening for a long time). Maybe the Marriott employee was correct when they told me their owners are “Marriott snobs”. I disagree though,  I don’t think they are Marriott snobs at all…. Most just have brand blindness. Where Marriott can never do anything wrong and nothing is better. Don’t get me wrong, I love the Marriott resorts, I haven’t been to one yet that I didn’t like. But I also love other brands.

Have some compassion, vistana owners are the most affected here. Marriott owners don’t have to do or lose a thing, they just get access to what we have had for years. Vistana owners can be on the winning end or on the losing end. There is uncertainty on the side of the vistana owner. I spent 40K as a 22 year old in vistana. I’m entitled to have an opinion or concerns and those opinions don’t have to be favorable toward Marriott or toward owners who feel that vistana owners SHOULD PAY MORE BECAUSE THEY ARE INFERIOR.

Now Considering the only information being leaked after all of these years have been LIES FROM MARRIOTT EMPLOYEES, cut us some slack. Even now during this soft launch we are hearing LIES FROM MARRIOTT EMPLOYEES (ACQUISITION REMEMBER) So quit whining about the people “whining”. It’s extremely elitist, let Vistana owners voice their concerns, skepticism, and fears about losing what they have. End of story


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## VacationForever

This thread is looking like the COVID-19 forum.


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## CPNY

LOL just like the Covid thread one half demands segregation…..


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## Ken555

kozykritter said:


> This is the Vistana forum thread so better for you to post a message on the thread in the Marriott forum rather than here if you're trying to deter people posting over there.



Absolutely hilarious. It’s a good thing we are welcoming to those Marriott owners who come here to complain…about us! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## DanCali

CPNY said:


> This is why I feel like mandatory resale weeks will be part of the conversion opportunity. Give everyone a taste of booking in the DC Exchange, leaving them wanting more. I think they will get more owners to buy points rather than excluding owners and making them start all over with larger point purchases.



With that logic one can ask then why not let voluntary resales play in the DC too? One can apply the same argument there. Everybody gets grandfathered... I guess that's also possible.

I've seen some of the ambiguous footnotes, but I would still be very surprised (and maybe remorseful that I didn't rush to buy some WKORV weeks this weekend) if they let mandatory resale weeks in. If they do let mandatory resale weeks in and those owners "end up wanting more" like you say, why would those owners buy from Marriott? Those same owners are already familiar with the resale market and know resale points are cheaper and just as good. There is no immediate incentive to buy from MVCI. But if they keep as many owners as they can out of the DC, now they can lure them into a presentation and tell them that the only way to get in is to buy from them. It's more likely to work with Hawaii owners because 8000+ DC points is a good value on all fronts. But would those owners pay $30K+ just to have access to what they probably view as inferior resorts? Time will tell... But the "long game" seems a much more profitable strategy for MVC.

My MVC weeks are a mix of enrolled and unenrolled, and my enrolled weeks can convert to 12K+ points which is plenty for us. My Vistana weeks are all retro'd. Sure I'll be glad if they let those weeks in the system, but given the conversion value of WKV I am certain we'll rarely or even never convert those to DC points, just like we never converted to hotel points (and WKV 2BR Plat has a relatively great rate on that front - 216K Bonvoy points). It's much more cost effective to rent out the weeks and then rent points as needed. And I guess we'll see what happens with the HRA weeks.  So the most immediate benefit to us would be Chairman instead of Presidential - nothing to write home about....


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## CPNY

So let’s get this right……this thread is in the vistana forum and the title says (Marriott forum). Almost all of the changes of this program are coming on the Vistana side and affects Vistana owners who originally spent a lot of money with Vistana. Apparently Money that doesn’t count, according to some Marriott owners on here, because the money was spent prior for the acquisition.

Some Marriott owners are saying that vistana owners don’t belong in the Marriott forum complaining about Marriott. Where are they saying this? In the vistana forum!! So I’m going to pen this letter to Marriott owners:

Dear Marriott Owner,

Stop being so elitist. Stand for equality and equity. We are all part of the same family. I promise to treat your resorts like I would my beloved vistana resorts. I give you my word that I will treat a Marriott property and employee with the utmost respect as it would my beloved Vistana resort and employee. I will do this because I now consider myself a Marriott Vacation Club owner. You may not think we are, but I do. With that being said, have some compassion in that we are not used to our parent company drastically changing things. We can only go by what we heard you went through in 2010 and the way that sounds, you were all blindsided with changes. As they say, history repeats itself and this is a cause for concern for us. We don’t know what we are facing and We can only go by what we are hearing on TUG and from lies from Marriott employees. I hope you can understand our concern. Again, some of us will complain and some of us will voice concerns which sound like complaints. Remember this, Change is never easy but uncertainty is worse.

love your newly acquired sibling,
Vistana Owner


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## CPNY

DanCali said:


> With that logic one can ask then why not let voluntary resales play in the DC too? One can apply the same argument there. Everybody gets grandfathered... I guess that's also possible.
> 
> I've seen some of the ambiguous footnotes, but I would still be very surprised (and maybe remorseful that I didn't rush to buy some WKORV weeks this weekend) if they let mandatory resale weeks in. If they do let mandatory resale weeks in and those owners "end up wanting more" like you say, why would those owners buy from Marriott? Those same owners are already familiar with the resale market and know resale points are cheaper and just as good. There is no immediate incentive to buy from MVCI. But if they keep as many owners as they can out of the DC, now they can lure them into a presentation and tell them that the only way to get in is to buy from them. It's more likely to work with Hawaii owners because 8000+ DC points is a good value on all fronts. But would those owners pay $30K+ just to have access to what they probably view as inferior resorts? Time will tell... But the "long game" seems a much more profitable strategy for MVC.
> 
> My MVC weeks are a mix of enrolled and unenrolled, and my enrolled weeks can convert to 12K+ points which is plenty for us. My Vistana weeks are all retro'd. Sure I'll be glad if they let those weeks in the system, but given the conversion value of WKV I am certain we'll rarely or even never convert those to DC points, just like we never converted to hotel points (and WKV 2BR Plat has a relatively great rate on that front - 216K Bonvoy points). It's much more cost effective to rent out the weeks and then rent points as needed. And I guess we'll see what happens with the HRA weeks.  So the most immediate benefit to us would be Chairman instead of Presidential - nothing to write home about....



Because voluntary resales aren’t even part of the VSN now. Why grant them something they were not legally bound to? Mandatory resorts legally have to be part of the club and the club has to be part of the network that the operator is running. If the operator is changing the rules of the current network, then the case can be made that the rules would apply to the mandatory resorts. I’m sure others who know more can weigh in on the legality of the mandatory participation.


----------



## Eric B

CPNY said:


> Because voluntary resales aren’t even part of the VSN now. Why grant them something they were not legally bound to? Mandatory resorts legally have to be part of the club and the club has to be part of the network that the operator is running. If the operator is changing the rules of the current network, then the case can be made that the rules would apply to the mandatory resorts. I’m sure others who know more can weigh in on the legality of the mandatory participation.



Didn't they do something similar for resale Marriott weeks at the initiation of the DC, although there was a higher buy in cost for them?  That could set up an interesting situation where voluntary resales might be in enrolled but unable to participate in the VSN, but that might not be a bad "problem" a salesman could fix with a purchase....


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## Ken555

Eric B said:


> Didn't they do something similar for resale Marriott weeks at the initiation of the DC, although there was a higher buy in cost for them? That could set up an interesting situation where voluntary resales might be in enrolled but unable to participate in the VSN, but that might not be a bad "problem" a salesman could fix with a purchase....



Yes, I thought they charged $1500 or so to bring one in to the program. I’m sure someone will correct that amount…it may have varied as time went on, but I also recall those threads about it back then. We also discussed a similar possibility when the “acquisition” occurred, as well as in various other theoretical merger threads over the years.

I’m still fairly sure we haven’t heard all the details of the new program yet. And some of the info is laughably wrong - and if accurate, then something is wrong at Marriott. I’m still amazed they knowingly allow sales weasels to lie so blatantly, but then perhaps the product really doesn’t sell itself at such high prices.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Eric B

DanCali said:


> This is probably far from the actual skim.
> 
> I wrote a detailed explanation in post 727 in this thread about how skim should be viewed (and the 1 Like it got was from you!)
> 
> Without repeating that long post, I'll just say that, the way I see it, the skim should be computed relative to the *average* points required to book a week in your season. It would not be fair to compare it to the most expensive week in your season. When you use the "average points" for a week in the season that means that if all owners converted to points then all the points would be enough to book that entire season. Anything less is "skim". Anything more would not be feasible and probably not legal...
> 
> Here is an illustrative example for 2BR WKV Platinum. The deeded Platinum season runs from Week 51 to week 21 the following year. The points required to book those weeks are (from what I can tell, based on blurry photos here and I also may be off by a week here and there):
> 
> 
> Week 513800 points to bookWeek 525400 points to bookWeeks 1-22950 points to bookWeek 33800 points to bookWeeks 4-145400 points to bookWeeks 15-173800 points to bookWeeks 18-212950 points to book
> 
> So, you have 23 weeks in the season. The average points required to book a week in this season is 4413. It converts allegedly to 4050, so the skim is about 8.2%. This would be slightly higher than the traditional 5%-7% on the Marriott weeks.
> 
> But note that you can still "come out ahead" if you convert to points because you can book maybe 8-10 nights with 4050 elected points during some weeks (1, 2 & 18-21) in your season. Can you call that "anti-skim"? Not really... - since the "fair value" is around 4413 points, anything less they offer, is "skim".
> 
> There are other reasons besides the 8% "skim" for a 2BR Platinum WKV owner to be pissed off though - namely that it's superior to own 2 one-bedroom units over the 2BR lockoff (which was not the case in Vistana) and also the inferior conversion value relative to rental value.



I found your original posting about the "skim" and this one quite understandable.  I like that.  My comment was regarding the reported statement by the sales person that Nanea and WSJ would get 32:1 as a conversion rate while there had been previous reporting that it would be about 23:1.  The better conversion rate struck me as being closer in line with the point costs that showed up in the pictures folks took for weeks at the Vistana resorts.  32/23 is really about a 40% disparity; allowing for the 8% ordinary "skim" to cover the cost of doing business on a day basis vice on a week basis that leaves 32% to sticking it to the Vistana owners that purchased from a prior developer (or resale) rather than Marriott, who bought out Vistana - that was the basis for my statement that, if true, the less beneficial ration would represent an additional 30% "skim".

I don't put much stock into the reported statement as it didn't seem to have even the potentially fabricated information that some have posted pictures of (see, e.g., the pictures of printouts with generous application of white out).  Somebody had mentioned that they had been told they would get 2,600 for a 2 BR SVV, which is close to the 32:1 ratio if it's a non-lock off Platinum Plus week.  If Marriott is going to be valuing Orlando weeks that highly it strikes me that the reported 23:1 ratio for WSJ would be more appropriate, especially considering that they could rent out the weeks at a much higher rack rate - I'm in a WSJ 1 BR right now where the posted room rate per day is $1,200 and I've seen reports that Marriott charges $7,000 per week on their web site.  I believe that Marriott is a profit-driven corporation after all, the business of business being business, so would conclude that the sales discussion that I reacted to was either puffery or deception by someone trying to make a sale.

BTW, the potential for Marriott to rent out or otherwise use high demand weeks deposited by resale owners (who would be more likely to acquire high demand weeks given the fact that they are more likely to be well informed than a retail owner) strikes me as something that could provide adequate motivation for Marriott to allow resale owners to enroll the weeks.  For a profit-driven corporation (i.e., any corporation in the timeshare business that is able to survive the current consolidations), even the lower margin sides of the business should matter - if they could generate $7,000 for a week that I've paid ~$2,000-2,500 in maintenance fees and taxes on in exchange for staying elsewhere, and generate potential sales from whoever does stay in the resale week I convert to points they are ahead by a fair amount and have generated goodwill by treating me well.

Just my thoughts on the subject.  I'm sure they've run the numbers and come to their own conclusions on options like leaving out resale owners so that they either use or rent out their weeks.  I can live with it either way - it isn't an issue for me at all if they wind up never allowing me to convert my ownership into Bonvoy points.


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## DanCali

CPNY said:


> Because voluntary resales aren’t even part of the VSN now. Why grant them something they were not legally bound to? Mandatory resorts legally have to be part of the club and the club has to be part of the network that the operator is running. If the operator is changing the rules of the current network, then the case can be made that the rules would apply to the mandatory resorts. I’m sure others who know more can weigh in on the legality of the mandatory participation.



Ok - but taking that a step further that implies future resales can also participate. Would anyone still buy points from Marriott then when you can buy a Hawaii or WKV week instead for much lower upfront cost and MFs, and then use it as if it were points?

Treating "mandatory" as in the past would cause real issue for future sales.


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## tamu_bu

Eric B said:


> I found your original posting about the "skim" and this one quite understandable.  I like that.  My comment was regarding the reported statement by the sales person that Nanea and WSJ would get 32:1 as a conversion rate while there had been previous reporting that it would be about 23:1.  The better conversion rate struck me as being closer in line with the point costs that showed up in the pictures folks took for weeks at the Vistana resorts.  32/23 is really about a 40% disparity; allowing for the 8% ordinary "skim" to cover the cost of doing business on a day basis vice on a week basis that leaves 32% to sticking it to the Vistana owners that purchased from a prior developer (or resale) rather than Marriott, who bought out Vistana - that was the basis for my statement that, if true, the less beneficial ration would represent an additional 30% "skim".
> 
> I don't put much stock into the reported statement as it didn't seem to have even the potentially fabricated information that some have posted pictures of (see, e.g., the pictures of printouts with generous application of white out).  Somebody had mentioned that they had been told they would get 2,600 for a 2 BR SVV, which is close to the 32:1 ratio if it's a non-lock off Platinum Plus week.  If Marriott is going to be valuing Orlando weeks that highly it strikes me that the reported 23:1 ratio for WSJ would be more appropriate, especially considering that they could rent out the weeks at a much higher rack rate - I'm in a WSJ 1 BR right now where the posted room rate per day is $1,200 and I've seen reports that Marriott charges $7,000 per week on their web site.  I believe that Marriott is a profit-driven corporation after all, the business of business being business, so would conclude that the sales discussion that I reacted to was either puffery or deception by someone trying to make a sale.
> 
> BTW, the potential for Marriott to rent out or otherwise use high demand weeks deposited by resale owners (who would be more likely to acquire high demand weeks given the fact that they are more likely to be well informed than a retail owner) strikes me as something that could provide adequate motivation for Marriott to allow resale owners to enroll the weeks.  For a profit-driven corporation (i.e., any corporation in the timeshare business that is able to survive the current consolidations), even the lower margin sides of the business should matter - if they could generate $7,000 for a week that I've paid ~$2,000-2,500 in maintenance fees and taxes on in exchange for staying elsewhere, and generate potential sales from whoever does stay in the resale week I convert to points they are ahead by a fair amount and have generated goodwill by treating me well.
> 
> Just my thoughts on the subject.  I'm sure they've run the numbers and come to their own conclusions on options like leaving out resale owners so that they either use or rent out their weeks.  I can live with it either way - it isn't an issue for me at all if they wind up never allowing me to convert my ownership into Bonvoy points.


A lot of sense in your post. Plus, extra credit for the use of "puffery". I shall begin using that description in the many hyperbolic areas of life.


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## SueDonJ

pchung6 said:


> Maybe I misunderstood. Didn’t you just say Marriott doesn’t need these Vistana Orlando owners and only want Nanea or KOR owners? I’m sure just SVV and SVR combined is already a lot of potential customers. Piss them off on day 1 of the new program is really not a good idea. But with Marriott, who knows.


"But with Marriott, who knows?" Come on!! I get if Marriott isn't your thing but this is such an extreme criticism. They didn't get to be as successful a company as they are by being bad actors, and it's preposterous to think that they'll be looking to deliberately piss off potential customers just because they can.

As for Marriott inviting only the highest-demand/highest-points-value intervals to play in the sandbox, as far as we know there is only one US-based MVC interval that does not have a DC Points election value - it's the Summit Watch Bronze season Weeks (what are called "Bonus Time" on the resort's seasonal calendar.) They never explained why they were excluded but this particular interval has a history of being an oddity going back much further than the 2010 DC inception. If I'm remembering correctly there was something about these limited Weeks being held back by Marriott as rentals but when that didn't go well they released them to the HOA to sell them? I don't remember exactly but it was odd. So I would guess that the reason this one interval doesn't have a DC Points election value has nothing to do with its value relative to other Marriott Weeks, and everything to do with its original legal structures being different from every other Week in the system. If any US-based Vistana Weeks/Points are one-off oddities from the norm maybe you'll see the same zero DC Points election values but otherwise, I wouldn't expect any.

Non-US-based resorts are a different animal altogether and I'd expect delays there for a while, again due to the legal structures at origination but also due to local regulatory authorities and requirements.


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## pchung6

SueDonJ said:


> If any US-based Vistana Weeks/Points are one-off oddities from the norm maybe you'll see the same zero DC Points election values but otherwise, I wouldn't expect any.


That's exactly what I mean "with Marriott, who knows."


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## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> So let’s get this right……this thread is in the vistana forum and the title says (Marriott forum). Almost all of the changes of this program are coming on the Vistana side and affects Vistana owners who originally spent a lot of money with Vistana. Apparently Money that doesn’t count, according to some Marriott owners on here, because the money was spent prior for the acquisition.
> 
> Some Marriott owners are saying that vistana owners don’t belong in the Marriott forum complaining about Marriott. Where are they saying this? In the vistana forum!! So I’m going to pen this letter to Marriott owners:
> 
> Dear Marriott Owner,
> 
> Stop being so elitist. Stand for equality and equity. We are all part of the same family. I promise to treat your resorts like I would my beloved vistana resorts. I give you my word that I will treat a Marriott property and employee with the utmost respect as it would my beloved Vistana resort and employee. I will do this because I now consider myself a Marriott Vacation Club owner. You may not think we are, but I do. With that being said, have some compassion in that we are not used to our parent company drastically changing things. We can only go by what we heard you went through in 2010 and the way that sounds, you were all blindsided with changes. As they say, history repeats itself and this is a cause for concern for us. We don’t know what we are facing and We can only go by what we are hearing on TUG and from lies from Marriott employees. I hope you can understand our concern. Again, some of us will complain and some of us will voice concerns which sound like complaints. Remember this, Change is never easy but uncertainty is worse.
> 
> love your newly acquired sibling,
> Vistana Owner


*As moderator* of the Marriott forum I responded to a few posts in that forum's similar thread yesterday and said that anybody is allowed to post in either of the threads dedicated to this topic, on this forum or that one, and that we are actually encouraging both Vistana and Marriott owners/members to participate. Yes, the history of the DC rollout for Marriott owners in 2010 was very confusing, some would say deliberately made more so by Marriott , but many of us who slogged through it from the beginning know that without TUG we wouldn't have had a chance in hell of learning what we needed to learn as quickly as we had.

It also is basic human nature that uncertainty breeds negativity. Vistana people* are entitled to feel negatively towards Marriott Vacations Worldwide right now. Maybe it'll help to remember that during the years of speculation leading up to the 2010 DC rollout, there were plenty of Marriott owners who were only too happy to trash Marriott to kingdom come based only on what what people thought *might* happen or *could* happen. There's nothing a Vistana person* might say about Marriott now that hasn't already been said by a Marriott person.* In the end the only thing that will turn some of that negativity into positivity is when Vistana owners choose to join whatever Marriott offers them and then they share their experiences with how it's working. I'm certain that will happen - of course maybe not for all Vistana owners, maybe not even a majority of the Vistana people* on TUG, but it will happen. Marriott is a good company with good products, and they're not stupid.

Now this Marriott v. Vistana competitive nonsense of insulting each other needs to stop. The claims that only certain people/topics can be posted in each/both of these similar threads needs to stop. If you have a problem with a certain post then hit the "Report" button and let the mods/Admin deal with it. If you feel the need to defend your preference for one company over the other, feel free. If you feel the need to defend one company's products over the other, have at it. Just stop picking at each other.

* (The other day there was a comment about how it's divisive to say "Marriott people" or "Vistana people" - I have always used those terms to refer to the people who usually frequent one or the other of the TUG Marriott and Vistana forums, same as I use "Wyndham people, Disney people" etc. That's it, no divisiveness or insult intended.)


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## SueDonJ

pchung6 said:


> That's exactly what I mean "with Marriott, who knows."


Summit Watch Bronze Weeks were a known oddity long before the DC inception. Are you saying there are similar US-based oddities in the Vistana system, so you're expecting Marriott to do something differently with them? I just don't understand the "who knows" thing, considering that there's a history and a very good working knowledge of the Destination Club on TUG. I would think that'll help right now to try to pinpoint where one-offs might happen, without having to expect that Marriott will make up oddities out of thin air.


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## CPNY

DanCali said:


> Ok - but taking that a step further that implies future resales can also participate. Would anyone still buy points from Marriott then when you can buy a Hawaii or WKV week instead for much lower upfront cost and MFs, and then use it as if it were points?
> 
> Treating "mandatory" as in the past would cause real issue for future sales.


Valid point and for that reason they probably won’t allow mandatory resales to participate the same way mandatory resales don’t convert to bonvoy points.

if they did allow mandatory in even in future resales then the resale market would explode. Who knows, maybe they will charge $3 per point in the amount that your ownerships convert to in order to participate like they do on resaleDC points now


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## pchung6

CPNY said:


> Valid point and for that reason they probably won’t allow mandatory resales to participate the same way mandatory resales don’t convert to bonvoy points.
> 
> if they did allow mandatory in even in future resales then the resale market would explode. Who knows, maybe they will charge $3 per point in the amount that your ownerships convert to in order to participate like they do on resaleDC points now


Deleted! Duplicated.


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## pchung6

SueDonJ said:


> Summit Watch Bronze Weeks were a known oddity long before the DC inception. Are you saying there are similar US-based oddities in the Vistana system, so you're expecting Marriott to do something differently with them? I just don't understand the "who knows" thing, considering that there's a history and a very good working knowledge of the Destination Club on TUG. I would think that'll help right now to try to pinpoint where one-offs might happen, without having to expect that Marriott will make up oddities out of thin air.


Maybe it is the concerns we still don’t know about the allowance of enrollment for mandatory and voluntary, or maybe only apply to few resorts? Who knows. Hope it will be the positive side for Vistana owners.


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## SueDonJ

Ken555 said:


> Yes, I thought they charged $1500 or so to bring one in to the program. I’m sure someone will correct that amount…it may have varied as time went on, but I also recall those threads about it back then. We also discussed a similar possibility when the “acquisition” occurred, as well as in various other theoretical merger threads over the years.
> 
> I’m still fairly sure we haven’t heard all the details of the new program yet. And some of the info is laughably wrong - and if accurate, then something is wrong at Marriott. I’m still amazed they knowingly allow sales weasels to lie so blatantly, but then perhaps the product really doesn’t sell itself at such high prices.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Trying to be as brief as possible here (which you all know is difficult for me  ) -

At the Destination Club rollout on 6/20/10 it was announced through a blurb on the newly-revamped website that went live at midnight:
- that sales of all US-based Weeks were ceased and that only DC Points were being sold at US-based sales offices;
- that every Week* that had been sold prior to that point, direct or external resales, was eligible for DC enrollment subject to a sliding scale one-time Enrollment Fee (ranging from $595 for a single direct-purchase Week to $1,995 for multiple Weeks including any external resale-purchase);
- that all future external-resale Weeks would not be eligible for enrollment.

*except, it turned out, the odd Summit Watch Bronze (Bonus) season Weeks mentioned previously

The official rules are still:
- that external resales purchased after 6/20/10 are not eligible for DC enrollment BUT there are intermittent sales incentives that allow enrollment of officially-ineligible Weeks with a purchase of DC Points;
- that the Enrollment Fee is $2,395 for all eligible Weeks BUT it can be waived in certain situations including a mandatory viewing of webinars.


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## TravelTime

pchung6 said:


> Maybe I misunderstood. Didn’t you just say Marriott doesn’t need these Vistana Orlando owners and only want Nanea or KOR owners? I’m sure just SVV and SVR combined is already a lot of potential customers. Piss them off on day 1 of the new program is really not a good idea. But with Marriott, who knows.



What I was thinking is that the Orlando/Vistana resale owners would be a small percentage of total Marriott owners. Wouldn’t many of Orlando/Vistana owners have purchased direct from Vistana? If so, they are not affected since they are all qualified.


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## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> The official rules are still:
> - that external resales purchased after 6/20/10 are not eligible for DC enrollment BUT there are intermittent sales incentives that allow enrollment of officially-ineligible Weeks with a purchase of DC Points;
> - that the Enrollment Fee is $2,395 for all eligible Weeks BUT it can be waived in certain situations including a mandatory viewing of webinars.


At some point it looks like MVC changed their pricing back to the original prices of $595/$695 for direct purchasers and $1495/$1995 for resale. Looking online those are the prices I see. No more the $2,395 price for all. I suspect free enrollment is still available for webinars and certain owner update incentives.


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## WatsonC2

CPNY said:


> Valid point and for that reason they probably won’t allow mandatory resales to participate the same way mandatory resales don’t convert to bonvoy points.
> 
> if they did allow mandatory in even in future resales then the resale market would explode. Who knows, maybe they will charge $3 per point in the amount that your ownerships convert to in order to participate like they do on resaleDC points now


They will need participation to gain the inventory needed.  I see several levers they could pull 1. the price to enroll  2.  the exchange rate given to encourage enrollment.  3. resale vs developer enrollment restrictions  4. mandatory vs voluntary enrollment restrictions, but more likely this resort but not that resort.  I would add that whatever they elect to do initially can change based on their success in getting the participation they require to get said inventory.    Soft roll outs are a common mechanism to test the waters and I would expect some changes.


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## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> Only people complaining are the Marriott owners, complaining about vistana owners posing in the Marriott forum (this has been happening for a long time). Maybe the Marriott employee was correct when they told me their owners are “Marriott snobs”. I disagree though,  I don’t think they are Marriott snobs at all…. Most just have brand blindness. Where Marriott can never do anything wrong and nothing is better. Don’t get me wrong, I love the Marriott resorts, I haven’t been to one yet that I didn’t like. But I also love other brands.
> 
> Have some compassion, vistana owners are the most affected here. Marriott owners don’t have to do or lose a thing, they just get access to what we have had for years. Vistana owners can be on the winning end or on the losing end. There is uncertainty on the side of the vistana owner. I spent 40K as a 22 year old in vistana. I’m entitled to have an opinion or concerns and those opinions don’t have to be favorable toward Marriott or toward owners who feel that vistana owners SHOULD PAY MORE BECAUSE THEY ARE INFERIOR.
> 
> Now Considering the only information being leaked after all of these years have been LIES FROM MARRIOTT EMPLOYEES, cut us some slack. Even now during this soft launch we are hearing LIES FROM MARRIOTT EMPLOYEES (ACQUISITION REMEMBER) So quit whining about the people “whining”. It’s extremely elitist, let Vistana owners voice their concerns, skepticism, and fears about losing what they have. End of story



Okay I got confused. It says Marriott Forum and I missed that it says Vistana re the thread link. 

I am a Vistana owner and a Marriott owner. I think dual owners of MVC DPs and Vistana mandatory resorts may have a better insight into this issue since we are familiar with both programs. I was not happy as a MVC resale week owner so I enrolled my week and now I am happy. 

If MVC allows mandatory Vistana owners to access the DP program for no or low fee, this is a win win to me. Hopefully this is not a snobbish thing to say. It is what I feel about my potential membership options. I am not sure how much I would be willing to pay to enroll my Vistana week but I might be willing to pay more than just a “low” fee depending on the options and what it would get me. Hopefully it is a free or low fee option. That would be the best of all worlds.


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## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> Absolutely hilarious. It’s a good thing we are welcoming to those Marriott owners who come here to complain…about us!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I am a Vistana owner who happens to own MVC DPs also.


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## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> This is why I feel like mandatory resale weeks will be part of the conversion opportunity. Give everyone a taste of booking in the DC Exchange, leaving them wanting more. I think they will get more owners to buy points rather than excluding owners and making them start all over with larger point purchases.



I also think mandatory Vistana resale owners will be part of the conversion opportunity. OTOH, I wonder how many mandatory Vistana resale owners there are. Do many people buy resale compared to direct? I wonder what percentage of total Vistana owners are mandatory resale owners or even Vistana resale owners of any type.


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## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> Okay I got confused. It says Marriott Forum and I missed that it says Vistana re the thread link.
> 
> I am a Vistana owner and a Marriott owner. I think dual owners of MVC DPs and Vistana mandatory resorts may have a better insight into this issue since we are familiar with both programs. I was not happy as a MVC resale week owner so I enrolled my week and now I am happy.
> 
> If MVC allows mandatory Vistana owners to access the DP program for no or low fee, this is a win win to me. Hopefully this is not a snobbish thing to say. It is what I feel about my potential membership options. I am not sure how much I would be willing to pay to enroll my Vistana week but I might be willing to pay more than just a “low” fee depending on the options and what it would get me. Hopefully it is a free or low fee option. That would be the best of all worlds.


I’d pay a low fee to enroll my resale weeks for the best of both worlds. I’m not opposed to booking in the DC if eligible and if my units get me enough points for multiple weeks like I can get in the VSN now. If I am not eligible through my resale weeks, then I continue to use what I have until it’s becomes hard to do. I think it will take a few years before the VSN becomes more difficult based on the amount of people converting. When that happens, I’ll also look toward interval for exchanges. As we have seen, interval can be an excellent vehicle for great weeks. I’ve stayed at many Marriott resorts that I cannot wait to go back to. There are plenty that I’d hope I’m able to visit.


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## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I also think mandatory Vistana resale owners will be part of the conversion opportunity. OTOH, I wonder how many mandatory Vistana resale owners there are. Do many people buy resale compared to direct? I wonder what percentage of total Vistana owners are mandatory resale owners or even Vistana resale owners of any type.


I’d think the resale owners are low in the grand scheme of things. There are so many owners who buy on these updates and sales presentations that never bother to check places like TUG or social media until it’s too late to rescind. I really don’t know how it will shake out. The new VSN/Club dues chart is what’s throwing me. It says all VSN members will pay the new fee, that leads me to believe that mandatory resale owners will pay that new fee as well. Even if we cannot convert to DC points, having the other fees like banking and II exchange fees removed would be a huge win. Most of us with two mandatory resale ownerships are paying that same club dues now in the form of the VSN fees on the 1st and 2nd ownerships. That’s how I think it will happen. We will pay the new club dues and get those other fees taken away. We just won’t have the ability to convert to DC points the same way we cannot convert to Bonvoy points unless we enroll fully into the network.


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## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> At some point it looks like MVC changed their pricing back to the original prices of $595/$695 for direct purchasers and $1495/$1995 for resale. Looking online those are the prices I see. No more the $2,395 price for all. I suspect free enrollment is still available for webinars and certain owner update incentives.


!!

I feel like this (link to pricing page on owners.marriottvacationclub.com page which may require sign-in) is a recent change, and now I'm wondering if it signifies that there will be Enrollment Fees for eligible Vistana Weeks? (I've already said that if not, my question sent to MVW higher-ups will be why not, if there is still an official Enrollment Fee for Marriott Weeks?)

Hmmmmm. I'm making a note to watch this before editing the Points FAQ.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> I’d pay a low fee to enroll my resale weeks for the best of both worlds. I’m not opposed to booking in the DC if eligible and if my units get me enough points for multiple weeks like I can get in the VSN now. If I am not eligible through my resale weeks, then I continue to use what I have until it’s becomes hard to do. I think it will take a few years before the VSN becomes more difficult based on the amount of people converting. When that happens, I’ll also look toward interval for exchanges. As we have seen, interval can be an excellent vehicle for great weeks. I’ve stayed at many Marriott resorts that I cannot wait to go back to. There are plenty that I’d hope I’m able to visit.



I guess I am not worried as to whether MVC allows me to enroll my Vistana week or not. I feel my Vistana week is only worthwhile if I can book my week where I own. I am not into Interval or Star Options. I lost 81,000 SOs last year because I did not want to travel anywhere I could book with SOs. So now I think SOs are useless. 

I did not realize it would be hard to use SOs if I did not book my home resort in the year the home resort is eligible. There was one year where I was able to use SOs to book at WKOVR oceanfront instead of my home resort of WKOVRN oceanfront. That was  a great value since WKOVR OR is a much more expensive buy in than WKOVRN OF. So I just assumed using SOs would always be possible at 8 months for anywhere or almost anywhere I wanted to go. I know there is a specific person on this thread who will say “here you go again.” LOL  

I have always been able to book my Vistana home resort at 12 months, even this year with the broken online reservation system. I am guessing if MVC does not allow conversion, they may move up the booking window for Vistana owners to 13 months so we have an equal chance of booking our home resort as DP owners will. That is the only fair thing to do so Vistana owners of their home resort do not lose out. 

No matter what folks on this thread think, I have always found MVC to be fair or better than fair. When I purchased my DPs resale, MVC was in the process of increasing the enrollment fee to $3 a point (up from $2 a point). Since I was already in contract, they grandfathered me in until my deal closed. To me, that was the only fair thing to do. If they had not done that, I would have had to cancel my contract.

I understand why Vistana owners are worried. OTOH, if you bought where you want to travel, then you should be fine. I think it is the people who bought only for trading with SOs at 8 months who should be the most worried. TUD always says “buy where you want to go.” This is a prime example of why.


----------



## TravelTime

SueDonJ said:


> !!
> 
> I feel like this (link to pricing page on owners.marriottvacationclub.com page which may require sign-in) is a recent change, and now I'm wondering if it signifies that there will be Enrollment Fees for eligible Vistana Weeks? (I've already said that if not, my question sent to MVW higher-ups will be why not, if there is still an official Enrollment Fee for Marriott Weeks?)
> 
> Hmmmmm. I'm making a note to watch this before editing the Points FAQ.



What was the change? Upon initially reading this, it looks the same to me. I would be happy with this policy to enroll my Vistana week.


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## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I guess I am not worried as to whether MVC allows me to enroll my Vistana week or not. I feel my Vistana week is only worthwhile if I can book my week where I own. I am not into Interval or Star Options. I lost 81,000 SOs last year because I did not want to travel anywhere I could book with SOs. So now I think SOs are useless.
> 
> I did not realize it would be hard to use SOs if I did not book my home resort in the year the home resort is eligible. There was one year where I was able to use SOs to book at WKOVR oceanfront instead of my home resort of WKOVRN oceanfront. That was  a great value since WKOVR OR is a much more expensive buy in than WKOVRN OF. So I just assumed using SOs would always be possible at 8 months for anywhere or almost anywhere I wanted to go. I know there is a specific person on this thread who will say “here you go again.” LOL
> 
> I have always been able to book my Vistana home resort at 12 months, even this year with the broken online reservation system. I am guessing if MVC does not allow conversion, they may move up the booking window for Vistana owners to 13 months so we have an equal chance of booking our home resort as DP owners will. That is the only fair thing to do so Vistana owners of their home resort do not lose out.
> 
> No matter what folks on this thread think, I have always found MVC to be fair or better than fair. When I purchased my DPs resale, MVC was in the process of increasing the enrollment fee to $3 a point (up from $2 a point). Since I was already in contract, the grandfathered me in until my deal closed. To me, that was the only fair thing to do. If they had not done that, I would have had to cancel my contract.
> 
> I understand why Vistana owners are worried. OTOH, if you bought where you want to travel, then you should be fine. I think it is the people who bought only for trading with SOs at 8 months who should be the most worried. TUD always says “buy where you want to go.” This is a prime example of why.


Agreed, I bought orlando because of the trading value at 8 months but I’m also good with going there. If I can only go to orlando for some odd reason then  I wouldn’t need as many as I do. I’d reduce the amount I own and just use interval getaways for orlando trips. That’s another option that excellent, keep one or two for interval purposes.

I expect Marriott will be fair for this conversion. We are entering a different economy and a different mindset in regards to travel. I think Marriott will want to do what’s best for customer satisfaction which will ultimately lead to more sales.


----------



## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> !!
> 
> I feel like this (link to pricing page on owners.marriottvacationclub.com page which may require sign-in) is a recent change, and now I'm wondering if it signifies that there will be Enrollment Fees for eligible Vistana Weeks? (I've already said that if not, my question sent to MVW higher-ups will be why not, if there is still an official Enrollment Fee for Marriott Weeks?)
> 
> Hmmmmm. I'm making a note to watch this before editing the Points FAQ.


Yes, it requires a sign in  is the enrollment fees for Marriott weeks per week or a larger fee for all the resale accounts you own? I remember seeing it was Xx amount for one and Xx amount for all.


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## CalGalTraveler

I am getting disgusted by these sales games. Trickling out news, yet trying to sell you products that have nothing in writing but "you have to visit a sales office and buy points to get this or you will lose out." Sales BS. HGV is playing the same integration game too.  And it is a poor look for both companies who have historically been more respectable players in the TS industry.

I thought I might open my wallet to participate. Now these tactics are turning me off spending in all programs until I know for sure. AFAIK no one has been harmed with program changes when they owned a deeded week that they mostly used. No one has ever cut off trading in RCI/II.  In some cases such as Diamond someone who stuck with their original deed and DID NOT participate in their points programs paid lower maintenance fees and had great trading abiity. They would have been better off sticking with the deeded week they had.

IMO I don't believe the program changes are going to alter Vistana inventory  to the extent it affects our ability to use or rent what we own in the foreseeable future. Most Vistana owners don't pay much attention to such announcements and will stick with what they know. Heck, many don't even know how to trade in II/RCI even though it is an option open to them.

P.S. Vistana's reservation website is a mess. Shame on Marriott/Vistana for not handling this transition better - you've had plenty of time to get this right - no excuse.

[Rant finished]


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## SueDonJ

TravelTime said:


> ... I have always been able to book my Vistana home resort at 12 months, even this year with the broken online reservation system. I am guessing if MVC does not allow conversion, they may move up the booking window for Vistana owners to 13 months so we have an equal chance of booking our home resort as DP owners will. That is the only fair thing to do so Vistana owners of their home resort do not lose out. ...



In the Marriott Weeks system owners can book single Weeks at the 12-months Reservation Window and owners of multiple Weeks can book them consecutively/concurrently at the 13-months window. No changes were made to the single-Week reservation rules when the DC was rolled out with a 13-mos window for higher status tier members, so I can't imagine that the existing reservation rules for Vistana weeks will change either.

There hasn't been since the DC inception a proven instance of Marriott violating the Reservation Rules for Weeks. Meaning from all appearances, nothing is made available through the Destination Club if by doing so, the rights of existing Weeks Owners are violated. The fact that there is a 13-mos Reservation Window in the DC does not mean that all inventory is automatically made available at that window; it only means that inventory which has been made available by Weeks Owners who elect other usage (DC Points, II, Bonvoy Points, etc.) can be available via the DC.


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## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> Yes, it requires a sign in  is the enrollment fees for Marriott weeks per week or a larger fee for all the resale accounts you own? I remember seeing it was Xx amount for one and Xx amount for all.


It's dependent on whether you're enrolling a single Week or multiple Weeks, not assessed on a per-week basis. Quoted text from that link:

>>*Enrollment Pricing*

_You may enroll week(s) purchased from Marriott Vacation Club or its affiliates in the Exchange Program for only *$595 for enrollment of one week and $695 for enrollment of more than one week.* Weeks purchased from third parties (i.e., not from Marriott Vacation Club International or its affiliates) with a deed recording date prior to June 20, 2010 (or prior to April 21, 2016 for Marriott Phuket Beach Club weeks) are eligible for this offer, *with pricing of $1495 for enrollment of one week and $1995 for enrollment of more than one week*. Weeks purchased from third parties in transactions brokered by Marriott Vacation Club or its affiliates may be eligible for the offer under certain terms and conditions. Offer is valid for weeks located at participating MVCI resorts located in the U.S. and the Caribbean, and at Marriott's Phuket Beach Club._<<


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## CPNY

CalGalTraveler said:


> I am getting disgusted by these sales games. Trickling out news, yet trying to sell you products that have nothing in writing but "you have to buy points to get this or you will lose out." Sales BS. HGV is playing the same integration game too.  And it is a poor look for both companies who have been historically more respectable players in the TS industry.
> 
> I thought I might open my wallet to participate. Now these tactics are turning me off spending in all programs until I know for sure. AFAIK no one has been harmed with program changes when they owned a deeded week that they mostly used. No on has ever cut off trading in RCI/II.  IMO I don't believe the [program changes are going to change Vistana inventory to the extent it affects our ability to use or rent what we own in the foreseeable future. Most Vistana owners don't pay much attention to such announcements and will stick with what they know. Heck, many don't even know how to trade in II/RCI even though it is an option open to them.
> 
> P.S. Vistana's reservation website is a mess. Shame on Marriott/Vistana for not handling this transition better - you've had plenty of time to get this right - no excuse.
> 
> [Rant finished]


I feel like the big reputable TS companies had a lot of turnover in the sales department. The weasels from Westgate and the likes saw job openings at Marriott and Hilton and applied. I could be wrong, but that’s what it feels like.

I agree, the amount of vistana owners that don’t even know that they can use the VSN is astounding. Some of the conversations I’ve had with owners at resorts is an eye opener. No wonder why they get sold on owners updates. They really don’t even know what they have now and then here comes a sales guy telling them that what they own is old and outdated, so they spend thousands for a new program that they still don’t learn how to use.

I met a 75 year old widow who owns a farm in Florida and never travels anymore, maybe once every 3 years. I met her in the lobby of the sales office while I was attending my owners update in SVR. She was there to cancel her upgrade into flex. An upgrade she felt sick over because she couldn’t afford the 30,000 dollars she just signed up for. She told me the rep told her it’s a better option and when she told the rep she didn’t even use what she owned he pressured her more and more saying She should think about her Son (who wasn’t there) and how he can use it. The Son found out and apparently went a bit nuts, rightfully so! I tried explaining to her to leave the office and write a letter to rescind. I told her to meet me in the lobby of the hotel in 45 min and I would help her to get out of the contract. I was going to write the letter for her. Sales saw metalking to her and they quickly took me in the back. Well, she never showed up to the main lobby and I always wondered what happened to her. I hope they let her out but I doubt they did. It’s so sad how they prey on the elderly.


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## SueDonJ

TravelTime said:


> What was the change? Upon initially reading this, it looks the same to me. I would be happy with this policy to enroll my Vistana week.


At some point years into the DC the Enrollment Fee pricing had been changed to a single $2,395 for any and all enrollments. It's curious that the page shows the pricing has reverted back to the original Enrollment Fees.

[ETA] I was just able to do a quick 'Chat Now' but couldn't get an answer as to when/why the change.


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## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> It's dependent on whether you're enrolling a single Week or multiple Weeks, not assessed on a per-week basis. Quoted text from that link:
> 
> >>*Enrollment Pricing*
> 
> _You may enroll week(s) purchased from Marriott Vacation Club or its affiliates in the Exchange Program for only *$595 for enrollment of one week and $695 for enrollment of more than one week.* Weeks purchased from third parties (i.e., not from Marriott Vacation Club International or its affiliates) with a deed recording date prior to June 20, 2010 (or prior to April 21, 2016 for Marriott Phuket Beach Club weeks) are eligible for this offer, *with pricing of $1495 for enrollment of one week and $1995 for enrollment of more than one week*. Weeks purchased from third parties in transactions brokered by Marriott Vacation Club or its affiliates may be eligible for the offer under certain terms and conditions. Offer is valid for weeks located at participating MVCI resorts located in the U.S. and the Caribbean, and at Marriott's Phuket Beach Club._<<


Thank you! It also looks like it was when the deed was recorded was used as the eligibility to enroll. If that’s the case for mandatory resale owners this time around, some better be getting those deeds recorded asap lol


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## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> Thank you! It also looks like it was when the deed was recorded was used as the eligibility to enroll. If that’s the case for mandatory resale owners this time around, some better be getting those deeds recorded asap lol


That hard eligibility cut-off simultaneously with the 6/20/10 DC rollout caused a lot of problems with people who had purchases in process. Some were able to make the case for enrollment of those purchases when the process was complete, others were never successful with it. If they've settled internally on a process and cut-off that's understood by all reps, that's great. I wouldn't rely on that being the case, though.


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## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect free enrollment is still available for webinars and certain owner update incentives.



I don’t understand the scenario where it would be free for attending a webinar. Could you provide an example? Is this open to all Marriott owners? What are the “webinar” requirements?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> That hard eligibility cut-off simultaneously with the 6/20/10 DC rollout caused a lot of problems with people who had purchases in process. Some were able to make the case for enrollment of those purchases when the process was complete, others were never successful with it. If they've settled internally on a process and cut-off that's understood by all reps, that's great. I wouldn't rely on that being the case, though.


It’s about to get interesting that’s for sure.


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## kozykritter

SueDonJ said:


> !!
> 
> I feel like this (link to pricing page on owners.marriottvacationclub.com page which may require sign-in) is a recent change, and now I'm wondering if it signifies that there will be Enrollment Fees for eligible Vistana Weeks? (I've already said that if not, my question sent to MVW higher-ups will be why not, if there is still an official Enrollment Fee for Marriott Weeks?)
> 
> Hmmmmm. I'm making a note to watch this before editing the Points FAQ.


Perhaps the reason they've returned the prices to a lower point is to entice those holdouts from the initial enrollment to pull the switch once the access to Vistana properties comes online. Then they can sell them more DC points as well 

From how you described the Marriott points roll out, Vistana owners seem to be in a different situation as an internal points (options) and exchange program is already in place within their ownership system as well as a pure points ownership product. As some have pointed out perhaps a large percentage of Vistana owners are content to continue with those programs rather than use their ownership in DC, with or without an enrollment fee. By and large humans are creatures of habit that avoid change.

To overcome this predilection and fund its desire to provide MVC members greater access to Vistana properties (and sell them more DC points in the process), MVC has to provide a significant incentive to these Vistana owners in question for them to take a risk outside their comfort zone. Enrollment without a fee would make sense as a step in that direction.


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## SueDonJ

Ken555 said:


> I don’t understand the scenario where it would be free for attending a webinar. Could you provide an example? Is this open to all Marriott owners? What are the “webinar” requirements?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


This link is to an "Owner Learning Center" page that might also require sign-in to a Marriott account (if so I'm sorry, don't know how to make it accessible otherwise.) It contains several links to webinars for various types of ownerships and the last one is "Understanding The Benefits of Enrollment," which has a footnote: *_Owners who reside in the U.S. whose weeks were purchased by June 20, 2010, will be offered free enrollment in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program after viewing this entire presentation._

[ETA] Hmmm. Maybe this direct link to that single webinar itself might work? https://www.screencast.com/t/zRzeltIz


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## tschwa2

Ken555 said:


> I don’t understand the scenario where it would be free for attending a webinar. Could you provide an example? Is this open to all Marriott owners? What are the “webinar” requirements?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It eventually became free to join the DC after watching the webinar for owners of pre 2010 Marriott purchases but that free offer didn't come until about 7 years after a requirement to pay for enrollment which was under $1000 for multiple units purchased directly from Marriott pre 2010 and in the $3000-5000 range if you had one  or more resales purchased pre 2010 not from Marriott.


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## Ken555

SueDonJ said:


> This link is to an "Owner Learning Center" page that might also require sign-in to a Marriott account (if so I'm sorry, don't know how to make it accessible otherwise.) It contains several links to webinars for various types of ownerships and the last one is "Understanding The Benefits of Enrollment," which has a footnote: *_Owners who reside in the U.S. whose weeks were purchased by June 20, 2010, will be offered free enrollment in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program after viewing this entire presentation._
> 
> [ETA] Hmmm. Maybe this direct link to that single webinar itself might work? https://www.screencast.com/t/zRzeltIz



That page does not require login. 

Thanks!


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## SueDonJ

kozykritter said:


> Perhaps the reason they've returned the prices to a lower point is to entice those holdouts from the initial enrollment to pull the switch once the access to Vistana properties comes online. Then they can sell them more DC points as well
> 
> From how you described the Marriott points roll out, Vistana owners seem to be in a different situation as an internal points (options) and exchange program is already in place within their ownership system as well as a pure points ownership product. As some have pointed out perhaps a large percentage of Vistana owners are content to continue with those programs rather than use their ownership in DC, with or without an enrollment fee. By and large humans are creatures of habit that avoid change.
> 
> To overcome this predilection and fund its desire to provide MVC members greater access to Vistana properties (and sell them more DC points in the process), MVC has to provide a significant incentive to these Vistana owners in question for them to take a risk outside their comfort zone. Enrollment without a fee would make sense as a step in that direction.


Your guess is as good as mine. 

For the people who are holdouts from the initial rollout, though, the US-based owners anyway, they've had the opportunity to have their Enrollment Fee waived with the webinar viewing for quite some time now. At this point I wouldn't think it's a simple matter of the fee keeping them from enrolling.

When I first heard that Vistana owners wouldn't be charged an enrollment fee it didn't make any sense but I didn't understand your internal exchange option then. Knowing something more about it now it makes a little bit of sense, especially if I understand correctly that the fees for using that option would be higher for those enrolled (bringing your annual Club Dues - or whatever you call them - more in line with the DC Club Dues assessed to Marriott members.)

I do understand the part about there needing to be incentives for Vistana people to join whatever is being introduced - that part is no different than what happened when Marriott owners were first introduced to the DC. Some of us saw value with our particular ownerships immediately while many did not, but over time as we shared our practical experience more people came to understand the benefits it could provide for their individual ownerships. And of course, some Marriott people have never seen value in the DC based on their ownership/usage so have never joined, perfectly content to continue using what they own as they always have. It's an individual choice and not one that people should make until all the ramifications are understood.


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## kozykritter

SueDonJ said:


> Your guess is as good as mine.
> 
> For the people who are holdouts from the initial rollout, though, the US-based owners anyway, they've had the opportunity to have their Enrollment Fee waived with the webinar viewing for quite some time now. At this point I wouldn't think it's a simple matter of the fee keeping them from enrolling.
> 
> When I first heard that Vistana owners wouldn't be charged an enrollment fee it didn't make any sense but I didn't understand your internal exchange option then. Knowing something more about it now it makes a little bit of sense, especially if I understand correctly that the fees for using that option would be higher for those enrolled (bringing your annual Club Dues - or whatever you call them - more in line with the DC Club Dues assessed to Marriott members.)
> 
> I do understand the part about there needing to be incentives for Vistana people to join whatever is being introduced - that part is no different than what happened when Marriott owners were first introduced to the DC. Some of us saw value with our particular ownerships immediately while many did not, but over time as we shared our practical experience more people came to understand the benefits it could provide for their individual ownerships. And of course, some Marriott people have never seen value in the DC based on their ownership/usage so have never joined, perfectly content to continue using what they own as they always have. It's an individual choice and not one that people should make until all the ramifications are understood.


Perhaps they'll just require Vistana owners to watch the same webinar to enroll for free. Assuming that it's meaningful content, that would probably be beneficial because Vistana overall is a very simple straightforward system whereas MVC appears to have a few more twists and turns to get full benefit from it.... That said, compared to Wyndham it's a cakewalk!


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## robertk2012

CPNY said:


> LOL just like the Covid thread one half demands segregation…..


Exactly like that…no facts


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## robertk2012

DanCali said:


> Ok - but taking that a step further that implies future resales can also participate. Would anyone still buy points from Marriott then when you can buy a Hawaii or WKV week instead for much lower upfront cost and MFs, and then use it as if it were points?
> 
> Treating "mandatory" as in the past would cause real issue for future sales.


Those mandatory units wouldn’t be cheap and many have rofr.


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## rickandcindy23

When it comes to buying anything Vistana right now, it's best to buy where you want to be or buy something that you know you can rent, should the need arise because when you cannot use your own weeks, just rent what you own.  There will be no DC conversions happening for us.  Deeded weeks are still deeded weeks, and my deeds will still work the way they were intended.  They are not going to change anything on us.


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## DanCali

robertk2012 said:


> Those mandatory units wouldn’t be cheap and many have rofr.




Let's consider WKV. Let's say 2BR Platinum resale price is currently $15K (give or take). There is no ROFR at this resort. It's supposedly worth 4050 points. It has maintenance fees of ~$1700. 

Buying 4050 points from Marriott would be about $50K. Those 4050 points would have MFs of ~$2600. So, you can spend 70% less upfront, and pay 30% less in MFs every year if you go the WKV route... And it's even more attractive if you to the 1BR unit route.

That's would be bad news for Marriott's sales. It could also mean resale prices would increase substantially if they allow future WKV resale into the DC sandbox. I just can't see them allowing that options.

Yes, they can exercise ROFR on Maui weeks, but they'd be doing it at prices they were not doing it before, which would also eat into their margins.


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## robertk2012

DanCali said:


> Let's consider WKV. Let's say 2BR Platinum resale price is currently $15K (give or take). There is no ROFR at this resort. It's supposedly worth 4050 points. It has maintenance fees of ~$1700.
> 
> Buying 4050 points from Marriott would be about $50K. Those 4050 points would have MFs of ~$2600. So, you can spend 70% less upfront, and pay 30% less in MFs every year if you go the WKV route... And it's even more attractive if you to the 1BR unit route.
> 
> That's would be bad news for Marriott's sales. It could also mean resale prices would increase substantially if they allow future WKV resale into the DC sandbox. I just can't see them allowing that options.
> 
> Yes, they can exercise ROFR on Maui weeks, but they'd be doing it at prices they were not doing it before, which would also eat into their margins.



You realize there isn’t an unlimited supply of those?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VacationForever

For Vistana owners, if your resale weeks do not get offered free or low cost enrollment, nothing is lost.  For those ownership that are in VSN, you will continue to be able to use SOs to book.  Those with voluntary weeks will continue to be able to book or exchange in II.  I don't understand the anxiety or slamming of Marriott Vacation Club, the company.


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## DanCali

robertk2012 said:


> You realize there isn’t an unlimited supply of those?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I do realize that. That's why I said " It could also mean resale prices would increase substantially if they allow future WKV resale into the DC sandbox" - there is more supply when prices are higher.


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## rickandcindy23

They won't allow any resale into DC.  They haven't done it since 2010 for Marriott owners.  They aren't going to start now with us lowly Vistana owners.


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## VacationForever

rickandcindy23 said:


> They won't allow any resale into DC.  They haven't done it since 2010 for Marriott owners.  They aren't going to start now with us lowly Vistana owners.


Set low expectations and be pleasantly surprised if it turns out better than expected.


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## robertk2012

DanCali said:


> I do realize that. That's why I said " It could also mean resale prices would increase substantially if they allow future WKV resale into the DC sandbox" - there is more supply when prices are higher.



They also currently sell flex products despite cheaper resale mandatory units. 


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## DanCali

robertk2012 said:


> They also currently sell flex products despite cheaper resale mandatory units.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It's because most retail buyers are not even aware the resale market exists.

Not many people would knowingly pay tens of thousands of dollars for something that will be worth zero 7-10 days later (once they can't rescind). They only do that if they don't know the real value or maybe if they get other benefits like retro etc.


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## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> Let's consider WKV. Let's say 2BR Platinum resale price is currently $15K (give or take). There is no ROFR at this resort. It's supposedly worth 4050 points. It has maintenance fees of ~$1700.
> 
> Buying 4050 points from Marriott would be about $50K. Those 4050 points would have MFs of ~$2600. So, you can spend 70% less upfront, and pay 30% less in MFs every year if you go the WKV route... And it's even more attractive if you to the 1BR unit route.
> 
> That's would be bad news for Marriott's sales. It could also mean resale prices would increase substantially if they allow future WKV resale into the DC sandbox. I just can't see them allowing that options.
> 
> Yes, they can exercise ROFR on Maui weeks, but they'd be doing it at prices they were not doing it before, which would also eat into their margins.



They will cut this off by having a date by which Vistana owners are not eligible to buy enrollable weeks on the resale market. That is what they did with the DC. Is that what you were thinking or something else?


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## Red elephant

I was told by someone in central office that resale will not be allowed to covert to DC points. They would have to qualify the resale first. 
Westin flex is almost sold out and stop selling sometime soon. Only Sheraton flex will be sold.
Nanea and WSJ conversion rates are being recalculated as it was not accurate . We thought it was funny that they have hard 2 years to figure this out and still came out with the wrong conversion rates. 
The fees are all going away and there will only be one fee.


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## VacationForever

Red elephant said:


> I was told by someone in central office that resale will not be allowed to covert to DC points. They would have to qualify the resale first.
> Westin flex is almost sold out and stop selling sometime soon. Only Sheraton flex will be sold.
> Nanea and WSJ conversion rates are being recalculated as it was not accurate . We thought it was funny that they have hard 2 years to figure this out and still came out with the wrong conversion rates.
> The fees are all going away and there will only be one fee.


But "central office" does not mean anything if it is just another sales manager.  By telling customers that resales would not be enrolled is a way to get them to buy from them.  I do highly suspect that the conversion rates that were reported by TUGgers recently were also guess work by the sales people.  Time will tell for sure.


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## Red elephant

VacationForever said:


> But "central office" does not mean anything if it is just another sales manager.  By telling customers that resales would not be enrolled is a way to get them to buy from them.  I do highly suspect that the conversion rates that were reported by TUGgers recently were also guess work by the sales people.  Time will tell for sure.


Actually he looked at my portfolio and told me the conversion . So not sure if that is guess work and he could not tell me about WSJ and Nanea because it was not available .I think there is a lot of wishful thinking on our part as far as resales are concerned but as you said time will tell. If I find a WKV platinum resale I will jump on it. Don’t need to convert to DC points.


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## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> I don’t understand the scenario where it would be free for attending a webinar. Could you provide an example? Is this open to all Marriott owners? What are the “webinar” requirements?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes, for Marriott owners enrolling Marriott weeks in the DC program as it exists right now. Current enrollment fees are anywher efrom $595 to $1995 to enroll Marriott week(s). Watching the webinar waives that fee and gets your week(s) enrolled. If there is no enrollment fee for Vistana weeks, this won't apply to them.


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## VacationForever

Thinking a loud... Is it legally possible for VSN SO tables to change point requirements to refine it to the level of DC tables?  Can they also bump down SO allotment for SDO?


----------



## Eric B

VacationForever said:


> Thinking a loud... Is it legally possible for VSN SO tables to change point requirements to refine it to the level of DC tables?  Can they also bump down SO allotment for SDO?



That might be a bit complicated given the season definitions, but there is a bit of precedent with the SVV Bella phase seasons being slightly out of alignment with the rest of SVV.


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## DavidnRobin

Eric B said:


> That might be a bit complicated given the season definitions, but there is a bit of precedent with the SVV Bella phase seasons being slightly out of alignment with the rest of SVV.



WSJ-VGV had 2 SO adjustments, and WKORV/N OF had 1 SO adjustment.


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## Ken555

DavidnRobin said:


> WSJ-VGV had 2 SO adjustments, and WKORV/N OF had 1 SO adjustment.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Along with WLR during initial sales when they couldn’t sell it at their first SO allocation.


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## CPNY

I can’t imagine they will be adjusting any star options chart. If they started messing with star options chart to get people to buy DC points that would lead to many irate customers. Angry customers don’t spend money.


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## dioxide45

DavidnRobin said:


> WSJ-VGV had 2 SO adjustments, and WKORV/N OF had 1 SO adjustment.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Ken555 said:


> Along with WLR during initial sales when they couldn’t sell it at their first SO allocation.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


These are all cases where they increased the SOs of a few resorts. Certainly not something like was proposed to just adjust SOs of ALL deeded weeks at one time. Many would go down in value while others would go up. Certainly not impossible, but not likely to happen. I don't see them changing the current VSN program. DP is just going to be a separate overlay over deeded weeks and Flex points.


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## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> These are all cases where they increased the SOs of a few resorts. Certainly not something like was proposed to just adjust SOs of ALL deeded weeks at one time. Many would go down in value while others would go up. Certainly not impossible, but not likely to happen. I don't see them changing the current VSN program. DP is just going to be a separate overlay over deeded weeks and Flex points.



Eh, it answered the stated question. 


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## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> Eh, it answered the stated question.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I suppose, but there is a bigger picture to consider.


----------



## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> I suppose, but there is a bigger picture to consider.



Not every post needs to a comprehensive answer to the question, including previous assumptions…or even common sense. 


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## VacationForever

I am simply wondering if there will be adjustments to VSN to more closely match DC points conversion and reservation point requirement so that it becomes a wash whether Vistana owners elect DC for the year or if they were to use VSN to book using SOs.


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## pchung6

I only see them increase SO value, never decrease. Not sure if it is even legally allowed.


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## Ken555

VacationForever said:


> I am simply wondering if there will be adjustments to VSN to more closely match DC points conversion and reservation point requirement so that it becomes a wash whether Vistana owners elect DC for the year or if they were to use VSN to book using SOs.



Yes, and it was discussed in the early days of this merger, and IIRC our theoretical discussions years ago. Any such adjustment would impact current resorts, some perhaps positively and others certainly negatively.


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## Ken555

pchung6 said:


> I only see them increase SO value, never decrease. Not sure if it is even legally allowed.



I believe they can make whatever changes to the club they want, including eliminating it altogether. 


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## pchung6

Ken555 said:


> I believe they can make whatever changes to the club they want, including eliminating it altogether.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I think I heard it somewhere before. If they decrease points for one season, they have to increase points in another season. So the total points available for the resort has to remain the same? Because of that, no way anyone would decrease any season to anger any customers. Not sure it’s still valid today?


----------



## bizaro86

pchung6 said:


> I only see them increase SO value, never decrease. Not sure if it is even legally allowed.



You don't need to decrease any to make any adjustments you want. Leave whichever one you think is most over-pointed the same, and increase everything else relative to that.

IE make Maui/WSJ 300,000 staroptions for a 2br week and work down from there. 

That gives you the same effective devaluation without taking away points from anyone.

HGVC just did this - they multiplied HGVC points by 1.6 instead of dividing Diamond points for exactly this reason.


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## CPNY

Not sure where changing the star option chart values came into question. However Marriott is too busy trying to figure out the conversion, I doubt they are worried about adjusting the SO chart. If they did, How would that affect the Westin and Sheraton flex ownerships? Would they be able to increase values or decrease others legally now that they have been selling flex ownerships?


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> Not sure where changing the star option chart values came into question. However Marriott is too busy trying to figure out the conversion, I doubt they are worried about adjusting the SO chart. If they did, How would that affect the Westin and Sheraton flex ownerships? Would they be able to increase values or decrease others legally now that they have been selling flex ownerships?



I’m unclear if the various flex ownerships have the same governing documents as those of us with weeks that are club members so we may convert to SOs. It’s probably easier for them to modify flex. 


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## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Not sure where changing the star option chart values came into question. However Marriott is too busy trying to figure out the conversion, I doubt they are worried about adjusting the SO chart. If they did, How would that affect the Westin and Sheraton flex ownerships? Would they be able to increase values or decrease others legally now that they have been selling flex ownerships?


Before Flex they had much more leeway to adjust things as they wanted. That is how they were able to increase OF at WKORV StarOptions. They didn't decrease anything else. Just increased them. At that time it was a pure overlay program. Once they started conveying weeks to the trusts, they probably lost that ability as in order to increase something they would have to decrease something else. With the Flex trusts setup as they are and with inventory declared at specific point values, I don't see how they can increase or decrease any point values at any of the resorts.


----------



## Ken555

pchung6 said:


> I think I heard it somewhere before. If they decrease points for one season, they have to increase points in another season. So the total points available for the resort has to remain the same? Because of that, no way anyone would decrease any season to anger any customers. Not sure it’s still valid today?



Any change is likely to anger someone. The question is only if it is possible, and since you mentioned a possible legal remedy I wanted to be very clear, based on my recollection of the issue. I’m sure others know more details than I. That said, there are many changes which have the potential to anger us. 


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## CPNY

Does anyone think that since exchange fees will now be removed and included in the price of the Club dues, they will combine the brand preference/priority period? So all Vistana and Marriott owners can see all brands at the same time?


----------



## rcv82

Ken555 said:


> Any change is likely to anger someone. The question is only if it is possible, and since you mentioned a possible legal remedy I wanted to be very clear, based on my recollection of the issue. I’m sure others know more details than I. That said, there are many changes which have the potential to anger us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



In looking at the declarations for WKORV, it very clearly states that the network operator can change point assignments anyway they want once per year. The only restriction is that the total points given out to owners have to match the available units to use with the points. 

So I think the answer to whether it is possible is YES for points that are currently StarOptions. Weeks owners purchase their weeks and the ability to exchange in a network using points is an added benefit but the point values are not contractual. 

HomeOptions (Flex, Nanea), even though they look like (and are aligned to) StarOptions, are probably harder to change because owners directly purchased the points and the share of ownership they represent.


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## robertk2012

Ken555 said:


> I believe they can make whatever changes to the club they want, including eliminating it altogether.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


We can all stop paying too


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> They will cut this off by having a date by which Vistana owners are not eligible to buy enrollable weeks on the resale market. That is what they did with the DC. Is that what you were thinking or something else?




I just don't see why they treat resale mandatory now differently than they would later. 

If we agree that it's not feasible for resale mandatory to participate later (because it will destroy the retail points market) then why let those weeks in now? The arguments I read are "they are already part of SVN" but that argument will also apply later on too. 

With the DC in 2010 there was obviously no SVN and all resale was grandfathered to allow enrollment at higher cost. Either they do the same here, or they leave out all resales (retros aside). But I can't see them treating resale mandatory resorts different than resale voluntary resorts. What they are doing is not changing SVN, so SVN membership probably wouldn't matter.


----------



## ocdb8r

DanCali said:


> ... But I can't see them treating resale mandatory resorts different than resale voluntary resorts. What they are doing is not changing SVN, so SVN membership probably wouldn't matter.



I could see three levels of "grandfathering" based on the below"


Direct Purchase (lowest fee)
Resale Mandatory (medium fee) - resale mandatory already has full access to SVN)
Resale Voluntary (highest fee) - I presume paying the fee to "grandfather" you in will give you access to both MVC DP and SVN.  To me it would be strange to permit a Resale Voluntary resort access to DP but not SVN (not saying it couldn't be done...but seems like a strange "sell" for the normal consumer).  As such, making the fee slightly higher could be justified by the additional access provided.


----------



## kozykritter

DanCali said:


> I just don't see why they treat resale mandatory now differently than they would later.
> 
> If we agree that it's not feasible for resale mandatory to participate later (because it will destroy the retail points market) then why let those weeks in now? The arguments I read are "they are already part of SVN" but that argument will also apply later on too.
> 
> With the DC in 2010 there was obviously no SVN and all resale was grandfathered to allow enrollment at higher cost. Either they do the same here, or they leave out all resales (retros aside). But I can't see them treating resale mandatory resorts different than resale voluntary resorts. What they are doing is not changing SVN, so SVN membership probably wouldn't matter.


Since the DC enrollment eligibility is being presented as an add-on benefit for Vistana ownership and not a change to the current VSN program's structure (fee consolidation is a separate act), they can set whatever criteria they want for eligibility to participate. From the initial information that's been received through various sources noted here on TUG, it would appear that line would be qualified versus unqualified. Developer/retro'd are in, the rest are out if you trust Denise's source/others. It's the same line they draw for eligibility to convert to bonvoy points, award bonvoy status or count ownership towards elite levels. The word mandatory is a red herring here. It describes required participation in the VSN for those specific resales/properties and that will continue regardless of how other ownership benefits are changed.


----------



## Ken555

I suppose another scenario might include the eventual elimination of SOs altogether, some years from now. They could offer whatever promotion they want now to convert weeks to DP, which will likely take them several years at best to meet most owners and convince them to do so. After, they could remove SOs and offer yet another program to convert to DP while simultaneously converting flex to DP, assuming that’s even possible.

Long term it seems cumbersome and kind of silly for Marriott to have multiple trading networks. But, it wouldn’t surprise me either way.


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## DanCali

Ken555 said:


> ...They could offer whatever promotion they want now to convert weeks to DP, which will likely take them several years at best to meet most owners and convince them to do so...



I'd be very curious to know what percent of pre-2010 owners actually enrolled their weeks. The allowed enrollment for ~2K for resale owners and $600 for retail buyers (numbers may be off slightly, and slightly higher for 2+ weeks owners). That's a no-brainer compared to the $30K required to enroll post-2010 weeks, but I have a feeling quite a few owners still have not enrolled even 12 years later. And I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage is lower on the retail week owners' side.

We just purchased a Marriott week from an original MVC buyer from 20 years ago who had not enrolled it at all. I believe he was just using or renting the week, as he always intended to do. Most people don't like change and they definitely don't like getting ripped off twice. I'm not saying those enrollment fees are a ripoff, but when owners discover that their full price retail purchase is actually worth 80%-90% less, they don't necessarily want to buy anything else from that company ever again...


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## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> I suppose another scenario might include the eventual elimination of SOs altogether, some years from now. They could offer whatever promotion they want now to convert weeks to DP, which will likely take them several years at best to meet most owners and convince them to do so. After, they could remove SOs and offer yet another program to convert to DP while simultaneously converting flex to DP, assuming that’s even possible.
> 
> Long term it seems cumbersome and kind of silly for Marriott to have multiple trading networks. But, it wouldn’t surprise me either way.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


If that happened down the road, I would assume that mandatory resale units would be a big winner. The club resorts have to be part of the network program. I’m just confused on how they can change the membership fee for VSN members who are not part of the conversion opportunity. Everyone will pay the new increased club dues but not have access to all of the benefits?


----------



## CPNY

DanCali said:


> I'd be very curious to know what percent of pre-2010 owners actually enrolled their weeks. The allowed enrollment for ~2K for resale owners and $600 for retail buyers (numbers may be off slightly, and slightly higher for 2+ weeks owners). That's a no-brainer compared to the $30K required to enroll post-2010 weeks, but I have a feeling quite a few owners still have not enrolled even 12 years later. And I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage is lower on the retail week owners' side.
> 
> We just purchased a Marriott week from an original MVC buyer from 20 years ago who had not enrolled it at all. I believe he was just using or renting the week, as he always intended to do. Most people don't like change and they definitely don't like getting ripped off twice. I'm not saying those enrollment fees are a ripoff, but when owners discover that their full price retail purchase is actually worth 80%-90% less, they don't necessarily want to buy anything else from that company ever again...


I just got off the phone with someone looking to sell their Marriott who also never enrolled with original purchased week because they didn’t feel the points would be good for them and they didn’t know how it worked. Also, to their knowledge they think Marriott bought Sheraton but they aren’t sure. Many people are unaware of how versatile ownership can be.


----------



## Ken555

DanCali said:


> I'd be very curious to know what percent of pre-2010 owners actually enrolled their weeks. The allowed enrollment for ~2K for resale owners and $600 for retail buyers (numbers may be off slightly, and slightly higher for 2+ weeks owners). That's a no-brainer compared to the $30K required to enroll post-2010 weeks, but I have a feeling quite a few owners still have not enrolled even 12 years later. And I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage is lower on the retail week owners' side.
> 
> We just purchased a Marriott week from an original MVC buyer from 20 years ago who had not enrolled it at all. I believe he was just using or renting the week, as he always intended to do. Most people don't like change and they definitely don't like getting ripped off twice. I'm not saying those enrollment fees are a ripoff, but when owners discover that their full price retail purchase is actually worth 80%-90% less, they don't necessarily want to buy anything else from that company ever again...



I recall this being mentioned many times over the years. The distinction here is that we have a network many owners use, so the loss of it would have a profound impact on their usage, unlike the legacy Marriott weeks only owners. Of course, this doesn’t apply to all. 


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## Ken555

CPNY said:


> If that happened down the road, I would assume that mandatory resale units would be a big winner. The club resorts have to be part of the network program. I’m just confused on how they can change the membership fee for VSN members who are not part of the conversion opportunity. Everyone will pay the new increased club dues but not have access to all of the benefits?



I disagree. I see few reasons for Marriott to be nice to mandatory owners, though offering those an easy to swallow transition would be beneficial for all and likely increase their short term sales goals.

You’re forgetting that, other than possibly flex as previously mentioned, they could simply eliminate the club altogether. 

As for the fees…sorry, I just don’t have such faith in the info posted in this thread as accurate since it’s all from the sales weasels and we have already convinced ourselves (based on what I read earlier) that some of it is outright fictitious. I would applaud Marriott for doing the right thing by allowing mandatory owners into the new program at minimal, or no, cost and it would have a positive impact on my appreciation of the company and my future relationship with it. 


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## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> I disagree. I see few reasons for Marriott to be nice to mandatory owners, though offering those an easy to swallow transition would be beneficial for all and likely increase their short term sales goals.
> 
> You’re forgetting that, other than possibly flex as previously mentioned, they could simply eliminate the club altogether.
> 
> As for the fees…sorry, I just don’t have such faith in the info posted in this thread as accurate since it’s all from the sales weasels and we have already convinced ourselves (based on what I read earlier) that some of it is outright fictitious. I would applaud Marriott for doing the right thing by allowing mandatory owners into the new program at minimal, or no, cost and it would have a positive impact on my appreciation of the company and my future relationship with it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I agree with you that there are reasons for Marriott to be nice to mandatory owners.

My question is In regards to eliminating the the club. Are you talking about the elimination of the VSN completely? If they eliminated it completely and/or replaced with the DC Exchange, wouldn’t the mandatory resorts automatically be a part of that new exchange network?  I would think by having both the VSN and the DC Exchange overlay, they could keep the mandatory resale units out of the overlay program.


----------



## Eric B

Just sat through an update/sales presentation at WSJ.  They said the conversion rate for ownerships here would be 28:1, the same as all the Westins.  They offered to retro all of my weeks (7 resale) for $5K each in new purchases and were offering "close out pricing" on deeds/ownership certificates here - 25% off of what they started out at.  Here are a couple more pictures of point cost charts for the Marriott bookings:







Somewhat interesting that their statement was that I would only get 28:1 as a conversion for my fixed week fixed unit ownerships - if true it might be beneficial for a 1 BR Premium Platinum+ week in April where that would yield more points than booking it would cost through the DC.  Seems odd, but ok.  Same would be true for my studio week 51, where I would get 40 more points than it would cost.


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> I agree with you that there are reasons for Marriott to be nice to mandatory owners.
> 
> My question is In regards to eliminating the the club. Are you talking about the elimination of the VSN completely? If they eliminated it completely and/or replaced with the DC Exchange, wouldn’t the mandatory resorts automatically be a part of that new exchange network?  I would think by having both the VSN and the DC Exchange overlay, they could keep the mandatory resale units out of the overlay program.



They could do either. And no, technically I don't think they are required to do anything for mandatory resale owners. Though perhaps there could be an argument that DC is simply the Club in another form, and that might create some liability for them. I doubt they will eliminate it, I'm just postulating that it is possible. This is yet again another reason why we have always suggested that it's best to buy where you want to go. FWIW, I'm attempting to rent my 2023 WKV week and it will be interesting (for me) to see if I can and at what price as that will also have an impact on my decision whether or not to enroll the week in DP (I've had to bank my SOs each of the last two years and will again this year, so didn't want to continue the trend - I'm traveling a lot this year to non-timeshare destinations I don't have time to use all the weeks I have...just started a seven week trip, during which I'll visit the HGVC Scotland properties so looking forward to that... sorry, got off-topic here...).


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> They could do either. And no, technically I don't think they are required to do anything for mandatory resale owners. Though perhaps there could be an argument that DC is simply the Club in another form, and that might create some liability for them. I doubt they will eliminate it, I'm just postulating that it is possible. This is yet again another reason why we have always suggested that it's best to buy where you want to go. FWIW, I'm attempting to rent my 2023 WKV week and it will be interesting (for me) to see if I can and at what price as that will also have an impact on my decision whether or not to enroll the week in DP (I've had to bank my SOs each of the last two years and will again this year, so didn't want to continue the trend - I'm traveling a lot this year to non-timeshare destinations I don't have time to use all the weeks I have...just started a seven week trip, during which I'll visit the HGVC Scotland properties so looking forward to that... sorry, got off-topic here...).


I always appreciate your insights. Sounds like an awesome trip! Enjoy that. If all else fails with the VSN, there is always interval.


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> I'd be very curious to know what percent of pre-2010 owners actually enrolled their weeks. The allowed enrollment for ~2K for resale owners and $600 for retail buyers (numbers may be off slightly, and slightly higher for 2+ weeks owners). That's a no-brainer compared to the $30K required to enroll post-2010 weeks, but I have a feeling quite a few owners still have not enrolled even 12 years later. And I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage is lower on the retail week owners' side.
> 
> We just purchased a Marriott week from an original MVC buyer from 20 years ago who had not enrolled it at all. I believe he was just using or renting the week, as he always intended to do. Most people don't like change and they definitely don't like getting ripped off twice. I'm not saying those enrollment fees are a ripoff, but when owners discover that their full price retail purchase is actually worth 80%-90% less, they don't necessarily want to buy anything else from that company ever again...


The numbers for many years were around 45% enrollment. I beleive that has started to go up as Marriott offered free enrollment. It might stand somewhere between 50-60% by now.


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> The numbers for many years were around 45% enrollment. I beleive that has started to go up as Marriott offered free enrollment. It might stand somewhere between 50-60% by now.




It says a lot that after 12 years many of the "lowest hanging fruit" are not even willing to enroll in the DC exchange for free (albeit it'd cost ~$200-$250 extra each year in club dues).

To all those who are worried that exchange opportunities in VSN will dry up I think that means their kids might have to worry about that problem, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> It says a lot that after 12 years many of the "lowest hanging fruit" are not even willing to enroll in the DC exchange for free (albeit it'd cost ~$200-$250 extra each year in club dues).
> 
> To all those who are worried that exchange opportunities in VSN will dry up I think that means their kids might have to worry about that problem, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.


The only difference with VSE is that perhaps everyone will be enrolled for free (excluding possibly resale VIOs), but that would mean probably over 90% enrollment rate.


----------



## CPNY

DanCali said:


> It says a lot that after 12 years many of the "lowest hanging fruit" are not even willing to enroll in the DC exchange for free (albeit it'd cost ~$200-$250 extra each year in club dues).
> 
> To all those who are worried that exchange opportunities in VSN will dry up I think that means their kids might have to worry about that problem, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.


Let’s just say it does…. The least they can do is have joint preference in interval for all MVW brands….. so many good Marriott weeks in sightings forum lately that only Marriott can see lol.


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> Let’s just say it does…. The least they can do is have joint preference in interval for all MVW brands….. so many good Marriott weeks in sightings forum lately that only Marriott can see lol.


Oh no. I hope it remains only VSN can see VSN resorts and only Marriott can see Marriott. At least the same brand gets higher priority (Westin to Westin, Marriott to Marriott).


----------



## Mowogo

dioxide45 said:


> The only difference with VSE is that perhaps everyone will be enrolled for free (excluding possibly resale VIOs), but that would mean probably over 90% enrollment rate.


One thing to remember since many facets of this whole acquisition were driven by Marriott hotels both directly and indirectly.  If the hotels want the timeshares to be integrated anywhere close to the level that the hotel brands are. Thus while MVW may have wanted to have some sort of fee, seamless transfers between the different systems may have ranked higher than the extra income from fees.  The way you get seamless transfers is to have a program that doesn't cost too much more for the added benefits so that more will play in the new program.  If it was a purchase then you have a lot of owners that would run away, and they need the inventory exchanging quickly.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> Oh no. I hope it remains only VSN can see VSN resorts and only Marriott can see Marriott. At least the same brand gets higher priority (Westin to Westin, Marriott to Marriott).


Wah I don’t want to buy another timeshare lol


----------



## SandyPGravel

Eric B said:


> Just sat through an update/sales presentation at WSJ.  They said the conversion rate for ownerships here would be 28:1, the same as all the Westins.  They offered to retro all of my weeks (7 resale) for $5K each in new purchases and were offering "close out pricing" on deeds/ownership certificates here - 25% off of what they started out at.  Here are a couple more pictures of point cost charts for the Marriott bookings:
> 
> View attachment 51479
> View attachment 51480
> Somewhat interesting that their statement was that I would only get 28:1 as a conversion for my fixed week fixed unit ownerships - if true it might be beneficial for a 1 BR Premium Platinum+ week in April where that would yield more points than booking it would cost through the DC.  Seems odd, but ok.  Same would be true for my studio week 51, where I would get 40 more points than it would cost.


Curious, did they offer any VGV units at 25% off?  Two years ago I did an update 10 days before the pandemic shut everything down.  Big push to get in with Marriott.  Guy was kind of an arrogant jerk.(Shocking)  Was rather rude to my husband(& me) because my husband deferred to me.  (I'm the one that understands the system, he just comes along to pay for everything and enjoy himself .)  Showed us a  printout that they had 0 VGV units available.  Tried to get us to bite on a Sunset unit.  Wasn't interested.  Units are beautiful, kitchen sucks if you cook most of your meals.


----------



## Eric B

SandyPGravel said:


> Curious, did they offer any VGV units at 25% off?  Two years ago I did an update 10 days before the pandemic shut everything down.  Big push to get in with Marriott.  Guy was kind of an arrogant jerk.(Shocking)  Was rather rude to my husband(& me) because my husband deferred to me.  (I'm the one that understands the system, he just comes along to pay for everything and enjoy himself .)  Showed us a  printout that they had 0 VGV units available.  Tried to get us to bite on a Sunset unit.  Wasn't interested.  Units are beautiful, kitchen sucks if you cook most of your meals.



They did have VGV units also 25% off of the original quoted price (what a deal!).  There were quite a few on the printout and they offered us a couple of options that would have given us an additional week in the spring or a week 50 right before our week 51.  Thought about the latter because it would have been in the same unit, but the price point was wrong compared to resale availability and that wouldn't have been a platinum+ week, not that we'd trade it.

They did offer a few Sunset Bay options; completely agree about the kitchens there.  Someone might be able to figure out how to cook in those combination microwaves and with just a 2-burner cooktop, but it never works all that well for me.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

rickandcindy23 said:


> They won't allow any resale into DC.  They haven't done it since 2010 for Marriott owners.  They aren't going to start now with us lowly Vistana owners.



If so that's even more inventory in Vistana and less in DC. More for us resale owners.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> I'd be very curious to know what percent of pre-2010 owners actually enrolled their weeks. The allowed enrollment for ~2K for resale owners and $600 for retail buyers (numbers may be off slightly, and slightly higher for 2+ weeks owners). That's a no-brainer compared to the $30K required to enroll post-2010 weeks, but I have a feeling quite a few owners still have not enrolled even 12 years later. And I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage is lower on the retail week owners' side.
> 
> We just purchased a Marriott week from an original MVC buyer from 20 years ago who had not enrolled it at all. I believe he was just using or renting the week, as he always intended to do. Most people don't like change and they definitely don't like getting ripped off twice. I'm not saying those enrollment fees are a ripoff, but when owners discover that their full price retail purchase is actually worth 80%-90% less, they don't necessarily want to buy anything else from that company ever again...


I think TUGgers in general would be shocked to learn the numbers of owners who only ever use their timeshares as they were purchased - home resort, in season, in same unit size (so, they have no need of an exchange company, any exchange company.) Even more shocking, there are owners who do not use their timeshares at all but continue paying the MF's every year. I don't get that at all but I know two people in real life who fit this category, and I know that Marriott and the other timeshare companies are only too happy to have the rights to use these non-reserved intervals to generate rental income.


----------



## jabberwocky

DavidnRobin said:


> WSJ-VGV had 2 SO adjustments, and WKORV/N OF had 1 SO adjustment.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But these were both increases, correct?  I don't think they can drop SO allocations.


----------



## SueDonJ

Mowogo said:


> One thing to remember since many facets of this whole acquisition were driven by Marriott hotels both directly and indirectly.  If the hotels want the timeshares to be integrated anywhere close to the level that the hotel brands are. Thus while MVW may have wanted to have some sort of fee, seamless transfers between the different systems may have ranked higher than the extra income from fees.  The way you get seamless transfers is to have a program that doesn't cost too much more for the added benefits so that more will play in the new program.  If it was a purchase then you have a lot of owners that would run away, and they need the inventory exchanging quickly.


I'm not sure I understand what this is supposed to mean? What about the hotel company would drive the timeshare business, considering that the hotel and timeshare companies are completely separate entities?

I'm also not sure what fees are being talked about here, but I think it's worth noting in the overall discussion that Marriott Vacations Worldwide generates far more income from the annual Club Dues fees for enrolled Weeks owners than from the one-time Enrollment Fee that those owners paid to join the Destination Club. I don't think that it's been said that Vistana owners/members who join the DC won't be charged annual dues.


----------



## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> If that happened down the road, I would assume that mandatory resale units would be a big winner. The club resorts have to be part of the network program. I’m just confused on how they can change the membership fee for VSN members who are not part of the conversion opportunity. Everyone will pay the new increased club dues but not have access to all of the benefits?


With the caveat that none of the fees for enrollment have been officially confirmed, didn't Denise's Q&A contact say that the VSN annual fees would be increased only for all of the owners who choose to also play in the Destination Club sandbox, effectively bringing their annual fees in line with the annual Club Dues fees that are charged to Marriott DC members?


----------



## SueDonJ

rickandcindy23 said:


> They won't allow any resale into DC.  They haven't done it since 2010 for Marriott owners.  They aren't going to start now with us lowly Vistana owners.


This isn't correct.

At the 6/20/10 initial Destination Club rollout every previously-sold Week was eligible for enrollment, direct-purchase and external-resale alike. (And with enrollment of external-resales came the benefit to exchange for Marriott Rewards (now Bonvoy) Points, which is not an official benefit for non-enrolled external resales.)

For a period of years nothing changed - and to this day all pre-6/20/10 Weeks remain officially eligible for enrollment.

BUT at some point they introduced a sales incentive, that still intermittently cycles through, that allows officially-ineligible (read: post-6/20/10 external resales) Weeks to be enrolled with the direct purchase of DC Points. Yes, it costs a lot of money to buy DC Points direct, but even some savvy TUGgers have seen value in this incentive and have bought DC Points in order to enroll external resale Weeks that they purchased after 6/20/10.

I don't know what if anything that tidbit means for Vistana owners going forward. I'm just trying to help make sure that everything Vistana owners might want to consider during this process, about how Marriott currently works, is correct.


----------



## jabberwocky

SueDonJ said:


> I think TUGgers in general would be shocked to learn the numbers of owners who only ever use their timeshares as they were purchased - home resort, in season, in same unit size (so, they have no need of an exchange company, any exchange company.) Even more shocking, there are owners who do not use their timeshares at all but continue paying the MF's every year. I don't get that at all but I know two people in real life who fit this category, and I know that Marriott and the other timeshare companies are only too happy to have the rights to use these non-reserved intervals to generate rental income.


I think there are a lot.  When I was at the pool I chatted with two other couples from Canada.  One couple owned 5 weeks and the other 6 weeks.  All were purchased on the resale market at next to nothing.  They book their weeks consecutively from mid-February to late-March/early-April.  I asked if they ever thought about bringing their units into VSN or trading in II - they laughed and said they didn't see the need to spend thousands and pay more fees when they are happy with enjoying what they own already.


----------



## Red elephant

SueDonJ said:


> With the caveat that none of the fees for enrollment have been officially confirmed, didn't Denise's Q&A contact say that the VSN annual fees would be increased only for all of the owners who choose to also play in the Destination Club sandbox, effectively bringing their annual fees in line with the annual Club Dues fees that are charged to Marriott DC members?


My understanding was that they would be only one club fee for everyone . If it was limited to owners who choose to convert then some Vistana owners will be forced to pay two fees. If I convert my WSJ week and not my SVV week then I would be paying a club fee and a VSN fee that year.


----------



## Red elephant

CalGalTraveler said:


> If so that's even more inventory in Vistana and less in DC. More for us resale owners.


My impression was that resale ownership is not the majority but a small percentage of owners. So the reverse would be true. More inventory would go to the DC inventory as more owners choose to convert  each year.


----------



## jabberwocky

SueDonJ said:


> * (The other day there was a comment about how it's divisive to say "Marriott people" or "Vistana people" - I have always used those terms to refer to the people who usually frequent one or the other of the TUG Marriott and Vistana forums, same as I use "Wyndham people, Disney people" etc. That's it, no divisiveness or insult intended.)


As a person who owns Vistana, can I self-identify as a Marriott person? 

I've always liked reading the Marriott forums and learning about that system.


----------



## SueDonJ

Red elephant said:


> My understanding was that they would be only one club fee for everyone . If it was limited to owners who choose to convert then some Vistana owners will be forced to pay two fees. If I convert my WSJ week and not my SVV week then I would be paying a club fee and a VSN fee that year.


Hmmm. I just looked back and I think what confused me was the question about the fee structure, and the answers that 1) VSN fees would increase but the increase would cover the per-transaction fees that will be going away, and 2) the VSN annual fee will be tiered not based on whether an owner chooses to enroll but on the level of ownership.

I wonder if that's why there won't be an enrollment fee, because every VSN owner will be automatically enrolled and charged the newly-structured VSN fees?


----------



## VacationForever

jabberwocky said:


> As a person who owns Vistana, can I self-identify as a Marriott person?
> 
> I've always liked reading the Marriott forums and learning about that system.


What about I am a 80% Marriott and 20% Vistana person?    We love both systems.


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> As a person who owns Vistana, can I self-identify as a Marriott person?
> 
> I've always liked reading the Marriott forums and learning about that system.


Think of it this way.. you already are a Marriott person because they own Vistana


----------



## Eric B

jabberwocky said:


> As a person who owns Vistana, can I self-identify as a Marriott person?
> 
> I've always liked reading the Marriott forums and learning about that system.





VacationForever said:


> What about I am a 80% Marriott and 20% Vistana person?    We love both systems.



I own Vistana, Hilton, Wyndham, WorldMark, and a few independents, but am Marriott curious.  I consider myself pan-TS-systemic.


----------



## cubigbird

Eric B said:


> Just sat through an update/sales presentation at WSJ.  They said the conversion rate for ownerships here would be 28:1, the same as all the Westins.  They offered to retro all of my weeks (7 resale) for $5K each in new purchases and were offering "close out pricing" on deeds/ownership certificates here - 25% off of what they started out at.  Here are a couple more pictures of point cost charts for the Marriott bookings:
> 
> View attachment 51479
> View attachment 51480
> Somewhat interesting that their statement was that I would only get 28:1 as a conversion for my fixed week fixed unit ownerships - if true it might be beneficial for a 1 BR Premium Platinum+ week in April where that would yield more points than booking it would cost through the DC.  Seems odd, but ok.  Same would be true for my studio week 51, where I would get 40 more points than it would cost.


Ouch!  With my Diamond season SB weeks that means we get well less than a week in DC.  That seems quite a skin.  At a 28:1 ratio I would never enroll my week in DC.  Then again we use our WSJ ownership at WSJ and have never exchanged it.


----------



## bogey21

The growth and changes in Marriott boggle my mind.  I go back to when I used to eat at Marriott's 2nd (I think it was their 2nd) Hot Shoppe drive in restaurant in suburban Philadelphia when I was a 13 or 14 year old kid.  And look at where they are today...

George


----------



## bizaro86

jabberwocky said:


> But these were both increases, correct?  I don't think they can drop SO allocations.



That's a distinction without a practical difference. You can effectively make any adjustment with only increases by leaving whatever you would drop the most flat and increasing everything else by varying amounts. 

I expect that is how they would do it if they wanted to, because then nobody has their points go down, even if effectively it is exactly the same thing.


----------



## Ken555

SueDonJ said:


> Hmmm. I just looked back and I think what confused me was the question about the fee structure, and the answers that 1) VSN fees would increase but the increase would cover the per-transaction fees that will be going away, and 2) the VSN annual fee will be tiered not based on whether an owner chooses to enroll but on the level of ownership.
> 
> I wonder if that's why there won't be an enrollment fee, because every VSN owner will be automatically enrolled and charged the newly-structured VSN fees?



Adding another wrinkle… let’s not forget that those of us with voluntary weeks that are traded via II pay an annual II membership fee…unless I used SDO at SDO I will be paying that fee, so Marriott/II may actually profit more by keeping that week voluntary especially if they are waiving the trading fees for enrolled weeks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> With the caveat that none of the fees for enrollment have been officially confirmed, didn't Denise's Q&A contact say that the VSN annual fees would be increased only for all of the owners who choose to also play in the Destination Club sandbox, effectively bringing their annual fees in line with the annual Club Dues fees that are charged to Marriott DC members?


I asked that question and the answer was unclear. It original answer by the contact and what has been stated in the fine print on the picture that was posted is that all VSN members will pay the new club dues. Along with those dues are the removal of banking fees, exchange fees, etc. if ALL VSN members (mandatory resale owners included) pay the new dues and have the added benefits of those fees being removed, that’s a big win for resale mandatory owners even if they can’t convert to DC points. I’d expect the new club fee would come with all of the added benefits without the conversion opportunity. Same way they can’t convert to bonvoy points. I speculated this when I first joined. I figured they would use that as a benchmark, if you can convert to bonvoy you’d be able to convert to DC points.


----------



## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> I wonder if that's why there won't be an enrollment fee, because every VSN owner will be automatically enrolled and charged the newly-structured VSN fees?



This is the question of the day and the root of all speculation posts. A mandatory resale resort participates in the VSN with limited capabilities. Yes we can book reservations using star options but we cannot convert to bonvoy points or use star options for resort credits and some other usage options. Even though we cannot use those benefits we still pay the same VSN fee as others who are enrolled. For that reason I think every VSN member (enrolled and unenrolled) will pay the new club dues but the unenrolled VSN member (mandatory resale owner) will NOT be able to convert to DC program unless they retro with a new VOI purchase. Along with those new club dues, we will have the free SO banking and free internal interval exchanges, but not the DC conversion. That’s what I believe will happen.


----------



## VacationForever

CPNY said:


> This is the question of the day and the root of all speculation posts. A mandatory resale resort participates in the VSN with limited capabilities. Yes we can book reservations using star options but we cannot convert to bonvoy points or use star options for resort credits and some other usage options. Even though we cannot use those benefits we still pay the same VSN fee as others who are enrolled. For that reason I think every VSN member (enrolled and unenrolled) will pay the new club dues but the unenrolled VSN member (mandatory resale owner) will NOT be able to convert to DC program unless they retro with a new VOI purchase. Along with those new club dues, we will have the free SO banking and free internal interval exchanges, but not the DC conversion. That’s what I believe will happen.


Definitely a possibility.


----------



## SueDonJ

Ken555 said:


> Adding another wrinkle… let’s not forget that those of us with voluntary weeks that are traded via II pay an annual II membership fee…unless I used SDO at SDO I will be paying that fee, so Marriott/II may actually profit more by keeping that week voluntary especially if they are waiving the trading fees for enrolled weeks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Another tidbit ... with enrollment of Marriott Weeks comes a new II corporate account that looks and acts exactly the same as II individual accounts, except that the II account renewal and Marriott-to-Marriott exchange transaction fees are waived in it. Somebody like me who only owns Marriott enrolled Weeks can then allow the individual account to lapse. But somebody who owns, in addition to enrolled-Marriott Weeks, other non-enrolled-Marriott Weeks or non-Marriott weeks/points that they exchange via II must keep their individual II accounts, paying the renewal and transaction fees in those accounts.


----------



## Ken555

SueDonJ said:


> Another tidbit ... with enrollment of Marriott Weeks comes a new II corporate account that looks and acts exactly the same as II individual accounts, except that the II account renewal and Marriott-to-Marriott exchange transaction fees are waived in it. Somebody like me who only owns Marriott enrolled Weeks can then allow the individual account to lapse. But somebody who owns, in addition to enrolled-Marriott Weeks, other non-enrolled-Marriott Weeks or non-Marriott weeks/points that they exchange via II must keep their individual II accounts, paying the renewal and transaction fees in those accounts.



Other than the waived fees for M to M exchanges, this is similar to my II account for my mandatory week. I have two II accounts.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> This is the question of the day and the root of all speculation posts. A mandatory resale resort participates in the VSN with limited capabilities. Yes we can book reservations using star options but we cannot convert to bonvoy points or use star options for resort credits and some other usage options. Even though we cannot use those benefits we still pay the same VSN fee as others who are enrolled. For that reason I think every VSN member (enrolled and unenrolled) will pay the new club dues but the unenrolled VSN member (mandatory resale owner) will NOT be able to convert to DC program unless they retro with a new VOI purchase. Along with those new club dues, we will have the free SO banking and free internal interval exchanges, but not the DC conversion. That’s what I believe will happen.


This is what I was told. They are streamlining  all those fees. I had an issue with that as a 5 star I don’t pay those fees anyway . It is what it is.


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## pchung6

CPNY said:


> This is the question of the day and the root of all speculation posts. A mandatory resale resort participates in the VSN with limited capabilities. Yes we can book reservations using star options but we cannot convert to bonvoy points or use star options for resort credits and some other usage options. Even though we cannot use those benefits we still pay the same VSN fee as others who are enrolled. For that reason I think every VSN member (enrolled and unenrolled) will pay the new club dues but the unenrolled VSN member (mandatory resale owner) will NOT be able to convert to DC program unless they retro with a new VOI purchase. Along with those new club dues, we will have the free SO banking and free internal interval exchanges, but not the DC conversion. That’s what I believe will happen.


It sounds reasonable and high possibility they might do, at least some of you said.


----------



## VacationForever

Ken555 said:


> Other than the waived fees for M to M exchanges, this is similar to my II account for my mandatory week. I have two II accounts.
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The best part about Marriott corporate II account is that all retrades to Vistana and Marriott resorts are free, which means no more ePlus or restrictions of the 3 re-trades and you can keep doing it until you get what you want.


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## Ken555

VacationForever said:


> The best part about Marriott corporate II account is that all retrades to Vistana and Marriott resorts are free, which means no more ePlus or restrictions of the 3 re-trades and you can keep doing it until you get what you want.



That certainly is an enhancement. But at what cost?


----------



## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> The best part about Marriott corporate II account is that all retrades to Vistana and Marriott resorts are free, which means no more ePlus or restrictions of the 3 re-trades and you can keep doing it until you get what you want.


That’s awesome! If they allow mandatory resale owners to do that with the club fees, sign me up! I’d probably be using interval a ton more


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> I just don't see why they treat resale mandatory now differently than they would later.
> 
> If we agree that it's not feasible for resale mandatory to participate later (because it will destroy the retail points market) then why let those weeks in now? The arguments I read are "they are already part of SVN" but that argument will also apply later on too.
> 
> With the DC in 2010 there was obviously no SVN and all resale was grandfathered to allow enrollment at higher cost. Either they do the same here, or they leave out all resales (retros aside). But I can't see them treating resale mandatory resorts different than resale voluntary resorts. What they are doing is not changing SVN, so SVN membership probably wouldn't matter.



We are all speculating here. None of us know of course. It will be interesting to see what they do.


----------



## sparty

DanCali said:


> .. but I have a feeling quite a few (Marriott) owners still have not enrolled even 12 years later. And I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage is lower on the retail week owners' side.


 This would definitely surprise me if it were the case.. I thought in the years immediately following the 2010 DC creation the fine folks here on TUG were reporting percentages of enrollments as told to them by various Marriott communication channels that the percentages were relatively high, around 60 to 70%? Would have to go back on TUG to the early post-2010 years and check..


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## VacationForever

Our good friends who are 90% Vistana and 10% Marriott people  only enrolled their Marriott timeshare 2 years ago.  Their timeshare were all bought from the developers and finally they decided to enroll their Marriott ownership.  Up until then they figured that since they always used their ownership weeks, why pay another club fee.  It was only when one of their children's family moved to Florida, did they entertain the idea of enrollment so that they could use DC points to book at either Aruba or St. Kitts.  They have never used II and their jaws would drop whenever I told them that I had traded 1BR and studio units into 2BR and 3BR at Ko Olina, which is a place that they own at.  They just never want to learn to use II.


----------



## dioxide45

sparty said:


> This would definitely surprise me if it were the case.. I thought in the years immediately following the 2010 DC creation the fine folks here on TUG were reporting percentages of enrollments as told to them by various Marriott communication channels that the percentages were relatively high, around 60 to 70%? Would have to go back on TUG to the early post-2010 years and check..


A very early number that I have, from 2012, was that about 38% of owners had enrolled at that time. I know that VAC has disclosed the enrollment percentages since then, but I don't recall the exact number.


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> A very early number that I have, from 2012, was that about 38% of owners had enrolled at that time. I know that VAC has disclosed the enrollment percentages since then, but I don't recall the exact number.




I think most resale owners had a chance to make up their minds in the first couple of years and stick to that decision. It probably crept up slowly from (3%-5% per year?) there as they enticed people in various ways and made it free to people who know how to get it for "free" (although it really isn't free with the extra club dues).

The main catalyst for us to enroll was reading on TUG about the changes in Elite tier requirements and the "Executive" level going from a 6500 to a 7000-point threshold. The two weeks we had at the time were worth 6950 and it made sense that if we ever enrolled, at least to get grandfathered into Elite at 6500. If we didn't enroll or waited a few more weeks to enroll I dreaded the idea of salespeople trying to sell me 3000 points when we only needed 50 for the next level!


----------



## Moparman42

does anybody know when the bonvoy status will update to the new system?  I'm excited to have the higher grade and want to book some stays...


----------



## dioxide45

Moparman42 said:


> does anybody know when the bonvoy status will update to the new system?  I'm excited to have the higher grade and want to book some stays...


I suspect it won't happen until after a full launch in June (if it happens in June).


----------



## VacationForever

Never mind.


----------



## daviator

Moparman42 said:


> does anybody know when the bonvoy status will update to the new system?  I'm excited to have the higher grade and want to book some stays...


And not to throw a wet blanket on your excitement, but I wouldn't get too excited.  I've earned Titanium status the last few years through stays, and I've been disappointed in how little it's gotten me.

Automatic upgrades?  Maybe, sort of, if you consider the same room on a higher floor or with a little more desirable location to be an upgrade.  But an upgrade into anything resembling a suite has never happened to me.

Confirmed "suite awards?"  You get five (or ten, if you elect) nights worth of these a year at Titanium.  So far I am 2 for 7, of the 7 times I've tried, they haven't come through 5 times.  Of the two times they did come through, once was to a room which was almost imperceptibly different than the one i'd reserved, the other time it was a little bigger room with a larger sitting area.  I have yet to get an upgrade to something I'd call a suite.  (The nice thing with the suite awards is you can choose the room categories that you are willing to accept as upgrades.  The bad thing is that, at least in my experience, only the very minor upgrades are likely to be fulfilled, and I wonder if I'd have gotten those upgrades anyway, even without using the suite awards.)  For the five times that didn't come through, I only selected room types that were significantly better than the basic room I booked, and maybe that's why I didn't get anything at all.

Anyway, this is a little off-topic, but my point is that Bonvoy Platinum and Titanium are nice to have, but they haven't proven to be game-changers for me.  Your mileage may vary.

Several years ago, on a trip in Europe, I received major recognition for my then-Platinum status, including my name on a sign ("Welcome Mr. XXX") and upgrade to a gigantic suite that must have been 1,500 square feet.  But that was soon after the Marriott-Starwood merger and I think that was representative of the old Starwood service and not the new Marriott service.


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> And not to throw a wet blanket on your excitement, but I wouldn't get too excited. I've earned Titanium status the last few years through stays, and I've been disappointed in how little it's gotten me.


For the most part, I have found Titanium status is more of a bragging point for many. It doesn't offer much at domestic US properties. I am Titanium and stayed at the Tampa Marriott Water Street recently. We attached a suite night award that didn't come through. We were upgraded to concierge level and had a balcony (most rooms don't). We were offered "continental breakfast" or points or $10pp toward full breakfast. We took points instead of breakfast and went to Keke's Breakfast Cafe on the drive home instead. There wasn't much value in any of the benefits given. This pales in comparison to most European properties where you get the full breakfast spread that would cost over $40 US. Though I would never pay $40US for breakfast anywhere.


----------



## Mowogo

dioxide45 said:


> For the most part, I have found Titanium status is more of a bragging point for many. It doesn't offer much at domestic US properties. I am Titanium and stayed at the Tampa Marriott Water Street recently. We attached a suite night award that didn't come through. We were upgraded to concierge level and had a balcony (most rooms don't). We were offered "continental breakfast" or points or $10pp toward full breakfast. We took points instead of breakfast and went to Keke's Breakfast Cafe on the drive home instead. There wasn't much value in any of the benefits given. This pales in comparison to most European properties where you get the full breakfast spread that would cost over $40 US. Though I would never pay $40US for breakfast anywhere.


Marriott hotels is responding to hotel owners who think that customers want too much.


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> For the most part, I have found Titanium status is more of a bragging point for many. It doesn't offer much at domestic US properties. I am Titanium and stayed at the Tampa Marriott Water Street recently. We attached a suite night award that didn't come through. We were upgraded to concierge level and had a balcony (most rooms don't). We were offered "continental breakfast" or points or $10pp toward full breakfast. We took points instead of breakfast and went to Keke's Breakfast Cafe on the drive home instead. There wasn't much value in any of the benefits given. This pales in comparison to most European properties where you get the full breakfast spread that would cost over $40 US. Though I would never pay $40US for breakfast anywhere.


I should have touched on the breakfast benefits, because that is the one benefit of the higher Bonvoy levels that is legit (though I think it's all the same from Platinum on up.)  But having access to the lounge with free breakfast (or sometimes even free breakfast in the hotel restaurant) is valuable, to me at least.  More valuable, maybe, for business trips where I usually need to get up, eat, and get to where I'm going; on leisure trips I may be more interested in going out and exploring local breakfast options (like you did in Tampa) rather than having the same old banquet-style eggs and bacon that is often what you get in the hotels.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> For the most part, I have found Titanium status is more of a bragging point for many. It doesn't offer much at domestic US properties. I am Titanium and stayed at the Tampa Marriott Water Street recently. We attached a suite night award that didn't come through. We were upgraded to concierge level and had a balcony (most rooms don't). We were offered "continental breakfast" or points or $10pp toward full breakfast. We took points instead of breakfast and went to Keke's Breakfast Cafe on the drive home instead. There wasn't much value in any of the benefits given. This pales in comparison to most European properties where you get the full breakfast spread that would cost over $40 US. Though I would never pay $40US for breakfast anywhere.


The $40 breakfast spreads are aimed at business travelers with expense accounts.  

This cheapness on breakfast benefits may be hotel or chain specific.  I was impressed with my stay this past Sunday at the J.W. Marriott in MSP (only one night).  I did get my suite upgrade request fulfilled and also received a coupon good for up to $40pp on breakfast (including gratuity).  It was enough to get a full breakfast in - and then some.  The service was excellent.


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> I should have touched on the breakfast benefits, because that is the one benefit of the higher Bonvoy levels that is legit (though I think it's all the same from Platinum on up.)  But having access to the lounge with free breakfast (or sometimes even free breakfast in the hotel restaurant) is valuable, to me at least.  More valuable, maybe, for business trips where I usually need to get up, eat, and get to where I'm going; on leisure trips I may be more interested in going out and exploring local breakfast options (like you did in Tampa) rather than having the same old banquet-style eggs and bacon that is often what you get in the hotels.


Unfortunately for us, the lounge was closed (weekend). So continental breakfast was all that was offered. Or a $10pp credit toward a vastly overpriced full breakfast.


----------



## VacationForever

We stayed at Gritti Palace in Venice and since they didn't have a lounge, we got to enjoy their full breakfast buffet and the spread was amazing.  At a Westin in Rome, we got to order full hot breakfast and it was also very good.


----------



## Ken555

In my experience the breakfast benefit (and everything else pre-Marriott) for elites was great, especially outside the USA. 

I’m also Titanium and not expecting much this year, tho I have submitted a few SNAs and give them a small chance of making a difference. In terms of suite upgrades, I’ve had a few which were extremely nice and others that were simply annoying…like the suite at a large US airport hotel which had old dirty furniture and a connecting door placed next to the bed so I had a delightful night hearing the tv and conversation from the standard room next door (fwiw, the hotel did the right thing the next morning when I reported this by comping my night - still, I barely slept and even years later this is what I remember about that hotel..which tarnishes the brand and the hotel at least for me). 

Personally, my needs are quite modest. I just want a clean, quiet room. A nice view is a bonus but I really don’t care. Other than that, breakfast is valuable but even more so is an uneventful stay with good service. Many hotels do this just great but those who fail, tend to fail miserably. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mowogo

So as a datapoint, there really is no hope of picking up a resale now to get it qualified before the official launch.  Just had an ebay purchase where I submitted the paperwork Jan 7 and I just got the title email today for a resale Vistana Resort 2br lockoff EOYO


----------



## pchung6

Ken555 said:


> In my experience the breakfast benefit (and everything else pre-Marriott) for elites was great, especially outside the USA.


I'm currently on a business trip in an Asia busy city. The hotel I've been staying often last 5 years is cutting breakfast benefit now. I no longer receive breakfast buffet unless i pay $29. I can only get free breakfast at business lounge. I'm very disappointed about it because this is one of my favorite breakfast buffet. And of course, no upgrade again with titanium status, this never happened with SPG. They probably think put me in the corner room is an upgrade, thanks for the view.


----------



## dioxide45

Mowogo said:


> So as a datapoint, there really is no hope of picking up a resale now to get it qualified before the official launch.  Just had an ebay purchase where I submitted the paperwork Jan 7 and I just got the title email today for a resale Vistana Resort 2br lockoff EOYO


According to another post somewhere, it seemed that in the past (with original DC 2010 rollout), that Marriott actually used the ROFR waiver date as their determining factor if a resale week was eligible or not. Of course, many Vistana weeks don't require ROFR, so not sure what data point they would go off of. Most likely the deed recording date.


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## cubigbird

As a 5 star elite in VSN with a SO banking deadline of 12/31 better not change to the current MVC Chairman’s deadline of October.


----------



## dioxide45

cubigbird said:


> As a 5 star elite in VSN with a SO banking deadline of 12/31 better not change to the current MVC Chairman’s deadline of October.


I would expect that you can still bank StarOptions through 12/31. However, if you elect to take DC points instead of using your week or StarOptions, then you will be bound by the 10/31 deadline to bank the DC points. If you bank StarOptions, then you can't use those as a DC reservation in the combined program. The best of both worlds!


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## Red elephant

dioxide45 said:


> I would expect that you can still bank StarOptions through 12/31. However, if you elect to take DC points instead of using your week or StarOptions, then you will be bound by the 10/31 deadline to bank the DC points. If you bank StarOptions, then you can't use those as a DC reservation in the combined program. The best of both worlds!


I was told that VSN rules stay the same only change is the fees going away.


----------



## cubigbird

dioxide45 said:


> I would expect that you can still bank StarOptions through 12/31. However, if you elect to take DC points instead of using your week or StarOptions, then you will be bound by the 10/31 deadline to bank the DC points. If you bank StarOptions, then you can't use those as a DC reservation in the combined program. The best of both worlds!


If that’s the case, that’s very attractive.


----------



## rickandcindy23

SueDonJ said:


> This isn't correct.
> 
> At the 6/20/10 initial Destination Club rollout every previously-sold Week was eligible for enrollment, direct-purchase and external-resale alike. (And with enrollment of external-resales came the benefit to exchange for Marriott Rewards (now Bonvoy) Points, which is not an official benefit for non-enrolled external resales.)
> 
> For a period of years nothing changed - and to this day all pre-6/20/10 Weeks remain officially eligible for enrollment.
> 
> BUT at some point they introduced a sales incentive, that still intermittently cycles through, that allows officially-ineligible (read: post-6/20/10 external resales) Weeks to be enrolled with the direct purchase of DC Points. Yes, it costs a lot of money to buy DC Points direct, but even some savvy TUGgers have seen value in this incentive and have bought DC Points in order to enroll external resale Weeks that they purchased after 6/20/10.
> 
> I don't know what if anything that tidbit means for Vistana owners going forward. I'm just trying to help make sure that everything Vistana owners might want to consider during this process, about how Marriott currently works, is correct.


Ahhh, yes, for a price, which is fine.  I think it's fair that Marriott wants to make money to enroll my weeks.  That is exactly what I want to do.  I want to enroll several at once and buy direct from Marriott to accomplish it.  I will absolutely do it.  Could take me a while to figure out what to buy to enroll.  I have to talk Rick into it first.  I already talked him into two big purchases and we are waiting for ROFR on those.  He is probably hoping they don't go through.


----------



## kozykritter

cubigbird said:


> As a 5 star elite in VSN with a SO banking deadline of 12/31 better not change to the current MVC Chairman’s deadline of October.


What I would guess is SO's will maintain their current banking deadlines/time periods and when you elect Marriott DC points instead, those points will follow the Marriott banking deadlines and time periods. This aligns with the fact that they're not combining the systems but rather creating a link for exchange between them.

Oh, I see Dioxide already typed essentially the same thing. Great minds!


----------



## SueDonJ

rickandcindy23 said:


> Ahhh, yes, for a price, which is fine.  I think it's fair that Marriott wants to make money to enroll my weeks.  That is exactly what I want to do.  I want to enroll several at once and buy direct from Marriott to accomplish it.  I will absolutely do it.  Could take me a while to figure out what to buy to enroll.  I have to talk Rick into it first.  I already talked him into two big purchases and we are waiting for ROFR on those.  He is probably hoping they don't go through.


Just be aware that it's an intermittent sales incentive (and that there's the possibility of it disappearing as easily as it appeared.) When the time comes you can post on the Marriott forum to ask if the incentive is currently running and what the rules are. This is a slog of a thread but we try to merge related posts rather than have different threads every time the incentive cycles on and off:
Ongoing Sales Incentive - Enrolling Post-6/20/10 Weeks [MERGED]


----------



## CPNY

Moparman42 said:


> does anybody know when the bonvoy status will update to the new system?  I'm excited to have the higher grade and want to book some stays...


Don’t expect too much from that. I am titanium and I don’t see much value at all. The 4PM checkout is nice, but I’ve also received that as a platinum member.


----------



## CPNY

Red elephant said:


> I was told that VSN rules stay the same only change is the fees going away.


Even for resale owners? I’d love to know if resale owners get the perks of the free interval exchange.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Don’t expect too much from that. I am titanium and I don’t see much value at all. The 4PM checkout is nice, but I’ve also received that as a platinum member.


THe 4PM checkout is nice, but properties try to skimp on that too. One is supposed to request it on checkin, but on our last stay at a Marriott hotel in Tampa, I called at about 10PM to ask for a late checkout. I indicated that our status should allow for 4PM. The person I spoke to said "how about 1PM just to be safe". I countered with 2PM and that is where we landed. Next time we will be requesting 4PM on every hotel stay at checkin. Even if we may be out early.


----------



## DanCali

rickandcindy23 said:


> Ahhh, yes, for a price, which is fine.  I think it's fair that Marriott wants to make money to enroll my weeks.  That is exactly what I want to do.  I want to enroll several at once and buy direct from Marriott to accomplish it.  I will absolutely do it.  Could take me a while to figure out what to buy to enroll.  I have to talk Rick into it first.  I already talked him into two big purchases and we are waiting for ROFR on those.  He is probably hoping they don't go through.



Don't forget that all you are getting here is access to an exchange system. That's it.... You get to use your week, or convert to DP points - not both. When talking with Marriott salespeople, they will often confound things by blending what you are buying with what you can elect and arguing you paid $6/point or something.... The resale week is already yours and it's paid for. This is just access to another usage option.

Like Flex, any points you buy from Marriott as part of a deal to enroll weeks are pretty worthless on the resale market. You can also buy points on the resale market at $5/point (after the $3 fee to Marriott). So if they charge you ~$35K for 3000 points that you can otherwise buy for $15K and that you can resell for only $5K-$6K that a pretty hefty price to pay just to have access to an exchange system. For comparison, II charges $100/year and a fee per exchange (which would be analogous to the "skim")...

If those 2 big purchases you made presumably also have high rental values, you can potentially save a lot just by renting those out and then using the cash to rent at the Marriott resorts you like.

I'm not saying it's not nice to have enrolled weeks. It is easy and convenient to make exchanges, but at what price? Most of us can recognize an expensive points product when we see it and would refuse to buy into it. The irony is that if the deal was to just pay $1/point for every week they allow you to enroll (say $4000 for WKV 2BR Plat, $8000 for a WKORV 2BR) with no additional purchase I suspect most owners would decline that too, because a comparison to II makes that look expensive (although I personally would like it better). But when the deal is to spend $30K+ and buy a super expensive points product and enroll some weeks as a bonus, for some reason that becomes exciting


----------



## CPNY

DanCali said:


> Don't forget that all you are getting here is access to an exchange system. That's it.... You get to use your week, or convert to DP points - not both. When talking with Marriott salespeople, they will often confound things by blending what you are buying with what you can elect and arguing you paid $6/point or something....
> 
> Like Flex, any points you buy from Marriott as part of a deal to enroll weeks are pretty worthless on the resale market. You can also buy points on the resale market at $5/point (after the $3 fee to Marriott). So if they charge you ~$35K for 3000 points that you can otherwise buy for $15K and that you can resell for only $5K-$6K that a pretty hefty price to pay just to have access to an exchange system. For comparison, II charges $100/year and a fee per exchange (which would be analogous to the "skim")...
> 
> If those 2 big purchases you made presumably also have high rental values, you can potentially save a lot just by renting those out and then using the cash to rent at the Marriott resorts you like.
> 
> I'm not saying it's not nice to have enrolled weeks. It is easy and convenient to make exchanges, but at what price? Most of us can recognize an expensive points product when we see it and would refuse to buy into it. The irony is that if the deal was to just pay $1/point for every week they allow you to enroll (say $4000 for WKV 2BR Plat, $8000 for a WKORV 2BR) with no additional purchase I suspect most owners would decline that too (although I personally would like it better). But when the deal is to spend $30K+ and buy a super expensive points product and enroll some weeks as a bonus, for some reason that becomes exciting


Speaking of points, you make Excellent points! I told a sales rep once, I’d enroll for some of the perks of being an elite owner but only if it were for a price that didn’t come with flex points. I wouldn’t want to have to deal with more maint fees for a flex ownership that I don’t need/want. I think if they charged a few thousand for enrolling resale units prior to the official roll out date, many vistana owners may do that.


----------



## rickandcindy23

SueDonJ said:


> Just be aware that it's an intermittent sales incentive (and that there's the possibility of it disappearing as easily as it appeared.) When the time comes you can post on the Marriott forum to ask if the incentive is currently running and what the rules are. This is a slog of a thread but we try to merge related posts rather than have different threads every time the incentive cycles on and off:
> Ongoing Sales Incentive - Enrolling Post-6/20/10 Weeks [MERGED]


Thank you!  I will do that.


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## MICROZE

CPNY said:


> Speaking of points, you make Excellent points! I told a sales rep once, I’d enroll for some of the perks of being an elite owner but only if it were for a price that didn’t come with flex points. I wouldn’t want to have to deal with more maint fees for a flex ownership that I don’t need/want. *I think if they charged a few thousand for enrolling resale units prior to the official roll out date, many vistana owners may do that.*


You can view what Vistana is offering as the same as *what you seek*.

Assuming I have 6 x Resale units purchased for ~$10K-$14K-Each for a total cost of ~$70K.

*OPTION-A: Flex*
For $35K I can enroll 6 x 2BR-WKV-PLAT+ units 888600-SO [148.1K x 6]. This works out to $5833/Unit to retro and I accrue ~1-Million SO every year.
This gives me 5* Elite + Bonvoy-Platinum and the benefits that come with the same and possible future benefits of the new Marriott-System.
One can assume that the 100K Felx that comes with the package is a bonus [burden]. I can thus give it away for $0 [even pay a little] to rid me of the higher Maintenance-Fees.

*OPTION-B: Deeded-Week*
Someone mentioned earlier on this thread that it's possible to retro without purchasing Flex if you did it at Kierland where they were still selling WKV-Weeks.
This would be even better value as you would inherit a WKV-Deeded-Week for retroing your resale weeks.

I know about Option-A as that is exactly what we did.
Given a do-over I would choose Option-B.


----------



## DanCali

MICROZE said:


> *OPTION-B: Deeded-Week*
> Someone mentioned earlier on this thread that it's possible to retro without purchasing Flex if you did it at Kierland where they were still selling WKV-Weeks.
> This would be even better value as you would inherit a WKV-Deeded-Week for retroing your resale weeks.
> 
> I know about Option-A as that is exactly what we did.
> Given a do-over I would choose Option-B.



That was me...   

We actually did it while owning mandatory weeks only, so it was quite unnecessary. We would not have done it had it not been for the other tangible things we got as part of the deal besides the retro of the Vistana weeks. It was during the peak of covid (summer 2020)... resorts were empty, and they were desperate to sell. This was a pretty big sale for them. We asked for some things I didn't think we'd get, but the salesperson pulled a lot of strings in high places and made it happen. We have no regrets.

While we were not even aware of the potential Vistana merger at the time, we may now get all our weeks enrolled (some say it may happen for voluntary resorts regardless of retro status). But as I wrote in earlier posts, I'm really not impressed with WKV Plat conversion values and would be very unlikely to use it for point election, especially since we already can convert 12K points on the Marriott side more cost effectively. And Chairman vs Presidential is really not a big deal - the only difference is banked points are good for 24 months instead of 18 months.


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## MICROZE

DanCali said:


> That was me...
> 
> We actually did it while owning mandatory weeks only, so it was quite unnecessary. We would not have done it had it not been for the other tangible things we got as part of the deal besides the retro of the Vistana weeks. It was during the peak of covid (summer 2020)... resorts were empty, and they were desperate to sell. This was a pretty big sale for them. We asked for some things I didn't think we'd get, but the salesperson pulled a lot of strings in high places and made it happen. We have no regrets.
> 
> While we were not even aware of the potential Vistana merger at the time, we may now get all our weeks enrolled (some say it may happen for voluntary resorts regardless of retro status). But as I wrote in earlier posts, I'm really not impressed with WKV Plat conversion values and would be very unlikely to use it for point election, especially since we already can convert 12K points on the Marriott side more cost effectively. And Chairman vs Presidential is really not a big deal - the only difference is banked points are good for 24 months instead of 18 months.


You did well.

*DCP-Enrollment*
Depending on when you purchased you may be exempt from the Enrollment fee.
I was told by multiple Marriott people [since we purchased a Hybrid-Package from Marriott in Oct-2021] that our purchase would qualify to enroll our Vistana-Contracts.
Not sure how far back they would go [maybe a year or more] to consider direct purchases [Vistana or Marriott] to automatically enroll *eligible* Vistana-Contracts without additional cost.

*Taxonomy [Eligibility V Enrollment]*

*Eligibility: *The assumption was that Direct-Purchase/Retro-Enrolled contracts would be *Eligible* for enrollment.
*Enrollment: *Eligible-Contracts can be enrolled for a fee [possibly waived with additional purchase]. The fee would be waived if there was a recent purchase [DCP, Flex, Hybrid].
*Resale: *Resale-Contracts [Mandatory/Voluntary/Flex] that are not qualified would be eligible to enroll if they were retro'd with an additional purchase [Flex or DCP].
*NOTE:* Vistana's option to Retro/Enroll resale units [$5K/Contract] is way more valuable [especially if enrolling High-Value contracts 148K-SO and more] than Marriott's option [$35K+].
The other benefit of a recent Vistana/Marriott purchase [preferably Hybrid + Retro] is the ability to enroll eligible Vistana-Contracts into the NEW-DCP-System for no additional cost.


----------



## MICROZE

After attending a presentation today [Grand Chateau] found out nothing new that hasn't already been discussed on this thread.
Watched the whole training video with the salesman.

1-NEW-EMAIL was shown to me dated *APR-14-2022*
MVCI is reopening the enrolling of resale weeks [purchased post JUN-20-2010].

Purchase 2500-DCP: Enroll 1-Week
Purchase 3500-DCP: Enroll 2-Weeks
Purchase 5000-DCP: Enroll 3-7-Weeks
This appears similar to what was offered in the past.
Today's price *$15.92/DCP*
There are incentives for purchasing DCP's like 15% - 20% Discount depending on #-DCP purchased and/or Bonvoy-Points


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## DanCali

MICROZE said:


> Today's price *$15.92/DCP*




To this I always respond, "If I didn't buy when it was $8, why would I buy now?" --> meet supervisor  --> decline encore package --> back to pool!


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## vacation dreaming

MICROZE said:


> After attending a presentation today [Grand Chateau] found out nothing new that hasn't already been discussed on this thread.
> Watched the whole training video with the salesman.
> 
> 1-NEW-EMAIL was shown to me dated *APR-14-2022*
> MVCI is reopening the enrolling of resale weeks [purchased post JUN-20-2010].
> 
> Purchase 2500-DCP: Enroll 1-Week
> Purchase 3500-DCP: Enroll 2-Weeks
> Purchase 5000-DCP: Enroll 3-7-Weeks
> This appears similar to what was offered in the past.
> Today's price *$15.92/DCP*
> There are incentives for purchasing DCP's like 15% - 20% Discount depending on #-DCP purchased and/or Bonvoy-Points


I would like to buy points to enroll my week.  Does anyone have a salesperson they like? I can’t stand sitting through the lengthy presentations with pretty pictures, I just want the best offer with numbers to make a decision.


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> Don't forget that all you are getting here is access to an exchange system. That's it.... You get to use your week, or convert to DP points - not both. When talking with Marriott salespeople, they will often confound things by blending what you are buying with what you can elect and arguing you paid $6/point or something.... The resale week is already yours and it's paid for. This is just access to another usage option.
> 
> Like Flex, any points you buy from Marriott as part of a deal to enroll weeks are pretty worthless on the resale market. You can also buy points on the resale market at $5/point (after the $3 fee to Marriott). So if they charge you ~$35K for 3000 points that you can otherwise buy for $15K and that you can resell for only $5K-$6K that a pretty hefty price to pay just to have access to an exchange system. For comparison, II charges $100/year and a fee per exchange (which would be analogous to the "skim")...
> 
> If those 2 big purchases you made presumably also have high rental values, you can potentially save a lot just by renting those out and then using the cash to rent at the Marriott resorts you like.
> 
> I'm not saying it's not nice to have enrolled weeks. It is easy and convenient to make exchanges, but at what price? Most of us can recognize an expensive points product when we see it and would refuse to buy into it. The irony is that if the deal was to just pay $1/point for every week they allow you to enroll (say $4000 for WKV 2BR Plat, $8000 for a WKORV 2BR) with no additional purchase I suspect most owners would decline that too, because a comparison to II makes that look expensive (although I personally would like it better). But when the deal is to spend $30K+ and buy a super expensive points product and enroll some weeks as a bonus, for some reason that becomes exciting



This TUG concept of renting your week out and using the cash to re-book is ludicrous to me. There are better ways to earn money than renting out a timeshare week. Just don’t bother buying a timeshare if that is your plan. I think renting out your week makes sense if you will not be using it. Otherwise, it is the silliest thing I have ever heard of.


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## serendip7

dss said:


> Is anyone else concerned that allowing top elite members a 13 month booking window will make booking of OF units at WKORV or WKORVN next to impossible at the 12 month mark?


Just came back from the owners update at Princeville.  Was explained to us that only a % of the rooms available can be reserved via the Marriott program at 13 months.  He stressed that existing options holders wont be affected at the 12 month mark because the majority of available rooms cant be touched at 13 months.  The system helps protect  existing options holders at the 12 month mark but that also means there’ll be a whole lot of elite members fighting over a % of the available rooms at 13 months.


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## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> This TUG concept of renting your week out and using the cash to re-book is ludicrous to me. There are better ways to earn money than renting out a timeshare week. Just don’t bother buying a timeshare if that is your plan. I think renting out your week makes sense if you will not be using it. Otherwise, it is the silliest thing I have ever heard of.




It's not for "earning money" - it's to maximize the value of the ownership...

Of course the considerations are different for owners at different resorts or seasons, but I'll go with WKV 2BR Plat as an example.  Come summer, WKV owners who want to exchange to Marriott resorts will have a new choice.

*(1)* Exchange their 2BR Plat for 4050 Destination Points and use those points to book a Marriott Resort, subject to DC availability. 4050 points is decent but will not get you a 2BR in peak season at most MVC resorts.

But they can still do what they always could do:

*(2)* Exchange (rent) their 2BR Plat for ~$4500 and use that cash to book the Marriott resort they want, subject to rental availability. $4500 goes pretty far in the rental market.

And if you want to compare which option is better, (1) or (2), consider that they can also

*(3)* Exchange (rent) their 2BR Plat for ~$4500 and use that cash to rent 6500 points for a single use year ($0.69/point rental rate).

Aside for the fact that the points in (1) and "better" because they are bankable and transferable, 6500 points is 60% more than 4050, which is the conversion rate... 10% or 20% I might leave alone for the extra convenience. But, to me, a 60% "bonus" by choosing (3) is way too much value to leave on the table. If Marriott owners will look to trade into my WKV weeks, they can find them on VSN or RedWeek.


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## Ken555

DanCali said:


> *(1)* Exchange their 2BR Plat for 4050 Destination Points and use those points to book a Marriott Resort, subject to DC availability. 4050 points is decent but will not get you a 2BR in peak season at most MVC resorts.



How many DPs would I need for a 2-bed in peak season at most MVC resorts?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> This TUG concept of renting your week out and using the cash to re-book is ludicrous to me. There are better ways to earn money than renting out a timeshare week. Just don’t bother buying a timeshare if that is your plan. I think renting out your week makes sense if you will not be using it. Otherwise, it is the silliest thing I have ever heard of.



You may call it a TUG concept, but when I was in the market for timeshares and wasted my time sitting through “owners updates” renting was one of the main use cases the sales weasels suggested. In fact, they often suggested buying more than I needed and rent the extra for profit.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## DanCali

Ken555 said:


> How many DPs would I need for a 2-bed in peak season at most MVC resorts?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



This really varies a lot by resort - Marriott overweighted Hawaii a lot compared to other resorts. Also, "peak" is a relative term because we know that "Peak" at HRA is Spring, but for us summer break often works better.

We really like Waiohai (an all-2BR resort on Kauai/Poipu). 4050 points that I'd get for 2BR Plat WKV cannot get you a full week there in any week of the year, not even Island View. Requires 4225 minimum on lowest demand weeks and 4850 for summer weeks. Oceanview is a 20%+ premium.

Regardless of all this, see the link below from vacationpointexchange to get a pretty good idea what you'll need:

MVC DP 2023 Points Chart


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## Ken555

DanCali said:


> This really varies a lot by resort - Marriott overweighted Hawaii a lot compared to other resorts. Also, "peak" is a relative term because we know that "Peak" at HRA is Spring, but for us summer break often works better.
> 
> We really like Waiohai (an all-2BR resort on Kauai). 4050 points that I'd get for 2Br Plat WKV cannot get you a full week there in any week of the year, not even Islandview.Required 4225 minimum on lowest demand weeks and 4850 for summer weeks. Oceanview is a 20%+ premium.
> 
> Regardless of all this, see the link below from vacationpointexchange to get a pretty good idea what you'll need:
> 
> MVC DP 2023 Points Chart



Thanks.

There is now zero chance I will enroll my WKV week for DPs, since I can’t see myself using them in the program. I’ll stay with SOs as long as I can, and then find something else when/if that becomes unviable.

Or, rent my WKV and do something else as I’m trying to do for 2023 since I currently have too many SOs banked.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Venter

The argument for renting seems overwhelming.  My question is what about tax.  As I read it from Redweek you can only offset costs of your week i.e. MF if you have used other points etc. in your portfolio to stay 3 or more weeks elsewhere.  So it seems you should pay tax on the whole rental amount which may not make it as attractive.


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## DanCali

Venter said:


> So it seems you should pay tax on the whole rental amount which may not make it as attractive.



I'm not a CPA, but it seems that there are also offsetting expenses so you definitely wouldn't pay taxes on the whole rental amount. Maintenance fees, taxes, SVN fees, advertising costs, depreciation of the original purchase price etc.


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## kozykritter

Venter said:


> The argument for renting seems overwhelming.  My question is what about tax.  As I read it from Redweek you can only offset costs of your week i.e. MF if you have used other points etc. in your portfolio to stay 3 or more weeks elsewhere.  So it seems you should pay tax on the whole rental amount which may not make it as attractive.


It's not exactly the case. In the guidance from Redweek that 3 weeks or more owned at a single property example is about excluding the income from taxation, not offsetting rental income with expenses. Here's what Redweek shared:






						Tax Aspects of Renting Your Timeshare | RedWeek
					






					www.redweek.com


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## kozykritter

DanCali said:


> I'm not a CPA, but it seems that there are also offsetting expenses so you definitely wouldn't pay taxes on the whole rental amount. Maintenance fees, taxes, SVN fees, advertising costs, depreciation of the original purchase price etc.


For income tax purposes, you can deduct documentable expenses related to producing any income that must be claimed on the tax return, timeshare or otherwise.


----------



## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> It's not exactly the case. In the guidance from Redweek that 3 weeks or more owned at a single property example is about excluding the income from taxation, not offsetting rental income with expenses. Here's what Redweek shared:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tax Aspects of Renting Your Timeshare | RedWeek
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.redweek.com



Tax advice you get from an internet site dedicated to renting or selling timeshares is worth every penny you pay for it.  If anyone really needs reliable tax advice, they're probably better off talking to someone that works in the field.  I've looked over the guidance provided by the IRS and it isn't the most transparent, but there doesn't seem like there is much difference between excluding income from taxation and offsetting income with expenses unless someone is trying to rely on the exclusion for renting a dwelling that is owner-occupied for less than 14 days a year.  Not intended as legal advice, but I wouldn't rely on that if it were me given the issues with trying to classify a timeshare in a resort as a dwelling.


----------



## jabberwocky

Maybe we can keep this thread focused on the merger?  Taxes have been discussed numerous times elsewhere on TUG and this thread is getting lengthy.


----------



## remowidget

I don't think any merger(as the term is usually applied) is going to happen. MVC will work as it does now. Vistana will work as it does now. It sounds like there will be a mechanism for Vistana owners to convert their week to MVC points and book through MVC. However, no merger unless it is in name only. ie, Vistana could go away and Vistana owners could be a third class of MVC owners.

I think that sales of future products will fold Vistana inventory into MVC. In other words after this happens, you will only be offered MVC points at retail. They will sell no more retail Vistana.


----------



## Markus

Just had an update at Sheraton Broadway Plantation. Was told that the weeks that I had retroed (resale authorized weeks) would not be eligible to participate in the new program, and that they would not be counted when determining my status in the Mariott world.

Unless of course, I took my previously authorized weeks, and traded them into Sheraton Flex! Wow! What a concept, taking weeks that were retroed, and buying again. When the discussion got too heated, the Manager came over and ended the presentation.

Markus


----------



## dioxide45

Markus said:


> Just had an update at Sheraton Broadway Plantation. Was told that the weeks that I had retroed (resale authorized weeks) would not be eligible to participate in the new program, and that they would not be counted when determining my status in the Mariott world.
> 
> Unless of course, I took my previously authorized weeks, and traded them into Sheraton Flex! Wow! What a concept, taking weeks that were retroed, and buying again. When the discussion got too heated, the Manager came over and ended the presentation.
> 
> Markus


Of course this was all said with the intent to sell you something new. Had they told you your weeks would work just fine and you didn't need to buy anymore, they had no hope of a sale. It is all about telling you what you own won't be good enough so they can sell you more. Garbage.


----------



## VacationForever

I don't know how these sales people can sleep at night.


----------



## CPNY

DanCali said:


> This really varies a lot by resort - Marriott overweighted Hawaii a lot compared to other resorts. Also, "peak" is a relative term because we know that "Peak" at HRA is Spring, but for us summer break often works better.
> 
> We really like Waiohai (an all-2BR resort on Kauai/Poipu). 4050 points that I'd get for 2BR Plat WKV cannot get you a full week there in any week of the year, not even Island View. Requires 4225 minimum on lowest demand weeks and 4850 for summer weeks. Oceanview is a 20%+ premium.
> 
> Regardless of all this, see the link below from vacationpointexchange to get a pretty good idea what you'll need:
> 
> MVC DP 2023 Points Chart


I agree, Summer is gold plus and usually the hardest time to get into HRA due to the summer school break. Yet the Star Option value does not reflect the demand or the Maint fee.


----------



## Markus

dioxide45 said:


> Of course this was all said with the intent to sell you something new. Had they told you your weeks would work just fine and you didn't need to buy anymore, they had no hope of a sale. It is all about telling you what you own won't be good enough so they can sell you more. Garbage.


Thanks for your reply, I appreciate that.

markus


----------



## vacationtime1

Markus said:


> Just had an update at Sheraton Broadway Plantation. Was told that the weeks that I had retroed (resale authorized weeks) would not be eligible to participate in the new program, and that they would not be counted when determining my status in the Mariott world.
> 
> Unless of course, I took my previously authorized weeks, and traded them into Sheraton Flex! Wow! What a concept, taking weeks that were retroed, and buying again. When the discussion got too heated, the Manager came over and ended the presentation.
> 
> Markus


We will be at WKORVN in five weeks and I was considering a presentation to learn what I can learn.  But it is painfully obvious that too many of the "facts" given at these presentations are out-and-out lies offered as scare tactics to sell rather than an introduction to the new system.  So why bother?

I would love to give Marriott some feedback (such as its idiocy in thinking the owner of a Kierland platinum+ week would elect points if they would receive only 4050 points -- and why should I bother to enroll in DC given that fact), but it's not worth the effort or vacation time in that I will learn nothing of value in exchange.

So thank you for posting this.  It saved me sitting through a presentation.


----------



## VacationForever

vacationtime1 said:


> We will be at WKORVN in five weeks and I was considering a presentation to learn what I can learn.  But it is painfully obvious that too many of the "facts" given at these presentations are total b.s., offered as scare tactics to sell rather than an introduction to the new system.  So why bother?
> 
> I would love to give Marriott some feedback (such as its idiocy in thinking the owner of a Kierland platinum+ week would elect points if they would receive only 4050 points and why would I bother to enroll in DC given that fact), but it's not worth the effort or vacation time in that I will learn nothing of value in exchange.
> 
> So thank you for posting this.  It saved me sitting through a presentation.


As someone who owns at MVC and Vistana, 4050 DC points for WKV is actually quite generous, more than most MVC platinum weeks, other than  Hawaii resorts.  Most MVC platinum weeks get somewhere between 2500 to 3500.


----------



## rickandcindy23

DanCali said:


> This really varies a lot by resort - Marriott overweighted Hawaii a lot compared to other resorts. Also, "peak" is a relative term because we know that "Peak" at HRA is Spring, but for us summer break often works better.
> 
> We really like Waiohai (an all-2BR resort on Kauai/Poipu). 4050 points that I'd get for 2BR Plat WKV cannot get you a full week there in any week of the year, not even Island View. Requires 4225 minimum on lowest demand weeks and 4850 for summer weeks. Oceanview is a 20%+ premium.
> 
> Regardless of all this, see the link below from vacationpointexchange to get a pretty good idea what you'll need:
> 
> MVC DP 2023 Points Chart


Marco Island is crazy points.  Glad we stayed there a few years ago during January via II exchange.


----------



## vacationtime1

VacationForever said:


> As someone who owns at MVC and Vistana, 4050 DC points for WKV is actually quite generous, more than most MVC platinum weeks, other than  Hawaii resorts.  Most MVC platinum weeks get somewhere between 2500 to 3500.


There are many earlier posts on this (buried a couple hundred posts above) so I won't repeat in great detail.  

A 2bd Kierland platinum+ week rents for north of $4,200 -- enough to buy ~6600 DC points through www.vacationpointexchange.com.  Yes, it's a bit of a hassle, but Marriott's offer is just too low to induce one to elect points.  Perhaps Marriott has concluded that it doesn't need Kierland weeks for its DC members.  Time will tell.


----------



## wjarcher

vacationtime1 said:


> There are many earlier posts on this (buried a couple hundred posts above) so I won't repeat in great detail.
> 
> A 2bd Kierland platinum+ week rents for north of $4,200 -- enough to buy ~6600 DC points through www.vacationpointexchange.com.  Yes, it's a bit of a hassle, but Marriott's offer is just too low to induce one to elect points.  Perhaps Marriott has concluded that it doesn't need Kierland weeks for its DC members.  Time will tell.



Not a WKV owner here, but can all weeks in platinum+ season be rented that high?  A lot of owners might not be that sophisticated to take the renting route for their weeks, DP program gives them another way to use their ownership (especially when they could not get the weeks they prefer for the next year).  To me, 4050 seems pretty fair.  (Marriott Ko Olina MV or Waiohai IV gets similar number of points)


----------



## travelhacker

I believe that a 1 bedroom platinum unit at WKV is slated to get 2150 DP points.

I look at the Marriott point chart, and personally, I am excited about the possibilities. I have no idea what the availability would be like but I have been very, very good at adapting to travel to places where I feel like I am getting the best bang for my buck.

I could definitely see me booking 5 nights during fall break at Crystal Shores for a pittance and then using my HRC ownership to add a couple of nights at Hyatt Coconut Plantation.

I could also see me doing something similar with Newport Coast Villas, Oceana Palms, Ocean Pointe, the HHI resorts, etc. 

The biggest factor that remains to be seen is how good availability for less than a week will be for me.

I would plan on traveling during the lowest season that would be possible given the school schedule.


----------



## kozykritter

Markus said:


> Just had an update at Sheraton Broadway Plantation. Was told that the weeks that I had retroed (resale authorized weeks) would not be eligible to participate in the new program, and that they would not be counted when determining my status in the Mariott world.
> 
> Unless of course, I took my previously authorized weeks, and traded them into Sheraton Flex! Wow! What a concept, taking weeks that were retroed, and buying again. When the discussion got too heated, the Manager came over and ended the presentation.
> 
> Markus


The part I find maddening is Marriott clearly gave the Vistana/MVC salespeople videos and paperwork with one set of facts about the new "feature/restructure/merger/whatever you call it" while knowing full well that they would manipulate those truths with owners to make sales and $$$. It won't work on TUGers because we talk to each other and can smell BS a mile away but I feel for the vast majority of owners that won't know about the fictions that are being spun to them. Next time, Marriott, please respect us enough to bring the facts to us directly! If it's a good deal and useful to us, we'll buy.


----------



## MICROZE

wjarcher said:


> Not a WKV owner here, but can all weeks in platinum+ season be rented that high?  A lot of owners might not be that sophisticated to take the renting route for their weeks, DP program gives them another way to use their ownership (especially when they could not get the weeks they prefer for the next year).  To me, 4050 seems pretty fair.  (Marriott Ko Olina MV or Waiohai IV gets similar number of points)


Not all VSN weeks rent as easy and as high as WKV [exception being Hawaii].
BTW: We rented 5 of our 6 2023 WKV-PLAT+ units for an average of ~$5200/Each [1BR-DX-A: $2400 + 1BR-PR-B: $2800].

Cannot possibly see anyway we would ever elect DC-Points for our WKV even if offered 5000-DCP.
Oddly our 2BR-WLR-PLAT+ units have been valued as 4950-DCP even though it is not as easy to rent and has lower Maintenance-Fees.

*Our Presentation*
I can't believe anything the salespeople say. At our presentation [Grand Chateau] this week the rep had ZERO info to offer us.
At least he was polite and didn't try to sell us anything.
I watched the entire 15-20 minutes Training-Video with him and the details in the training were vague [and ambiguous] at best.
*Some-Notes I remember*

Soft-Launch: March-2022
Full-Launch: Early-Summer-2022
Exchange-Ability: 2023
VSN will stop selling any Deeded-Weeks and stop selling any of the Flex-Programs shortly
Retros-Reopened: Marriott reopened retro's of resale weeks on APR-14-2022 [1WK: 2500-DCP, 2WKS: 3500-DCP, 3-7WKS: 5000-DCP]
Most likely MVCI will offer this as the only option to retro VSN-Resales. This works out to ~$35K-$40K for 1-Retro.
If you can retro via the current VSN-Offer [1WK: $10K-Flex, Additional-Weeks: $5K-Each] it is a much cheaper path.

VSN-Owners: Able to elect DCP annually
VSN-Owners: Can continue to use VSN as before [including opting for II with MVCI-Benefits]
VSN-Owners: Single Club-Dues [slightly higher but with many benefits]
No mention of Mandatory [Direct/Resale/Retro] V Voluntary
No mention of Eligibility or Enrollment-Fees
No mention of Fees for hybrid accounts [Direct + Resale OR Non-Retro]
No mention of a NEW-Level above Chairmans
No Mention of St. Regis residences
3*/4*/5* Mapped to MVC Executive/Presidential/Chairmans
3*/4*/5* Mapped to Bonvoy Platinum/Titanium/Titanium
Harborside & Riverfront will not be part of the Full-Launch. Most likely later.
*My Inferences*
Most likely we will continue with 2 x Accounts [MVCI + VSN]. The VSN-Account will have the option each year to choose DCP.
There will be *NO Combined-Account Status*. I will continue to be Chairmans/Titanium with MVCI while wife will become Chairmans/Titanium with VSN [where she is the primary].
We will continue to have 2 x Interval-Accounts [VSN + MVCI] and both can avail of the Single-Club-Dues Benefits.


----------



## rickandcindy23

MICROZE said:


> Not all VSN weeks rent as easy and as high as WKV [exception being Hawaii].
> BTW: We rented 5 of our 6 2023 WKV-PLAT+ units for an average of ~$5200/Each [1BR-DX-A: $2400 + 1BR-PR-B: $2800].
> 
> Cannot possibly see anyway we would ever elect DC-Points for our WKV even if offered 5000-DCP.
> Oddly our 2BR-WLR-PLAT+ units have been valued as 4950-DCP even though it is not as easy to rent and has lower Maintenance-Fees.


Wow!  That is great.  You have figured the rentals out well.  I feel like a rookie compared to you. No need to ever switch to Marriott from Mandatory Staroptions.


----------



## Ken555

VacationForever said:


> As someone who owns at MVC and Vistana, 4050 DC points for WKV is actually quite generous, more than most MVC platinum weeks, other than  Hawaii resorts.  Most MVC platinum weeks get somewhere between 2500 to 3500.



Perhaps comparing to other Marriott weeks. My perspective is different, since for many years I have been successful at using SOs to go to Hawaii and that was a primary reason I bought Starwood long ago. If I can't even get a like for like redemption using DPs AND they make me pay for the privilege, who are they kidding? 

It's relatively easy to go elsewhere, and I've been successful at using II for exchanging elsewhere using my SDO weeks.

If this stops working, such as devaluing the trading power of my SDO weeks in II (which may be occurring now) and Hawaii becomes more difficult to obtain via SOs, then I'll have to reconsider the entire game. BUT, Marriott will not get me to cough up more money to get less than I can get today - that's just a non-starter.


----------



## KACTravels

MICROZE said:


> Not all VSN weeks rent as easy and as high as WKV [exception being Hawaii].
> BTW: We rented 5 of our 6 2023 WKV-PLAT+ units for an average of ~$5200/Each [1BR-DX-A: $2400 + 1BR-PR-B: $2800].



Can you let us know your method of renting?  Do you use Redweek?


----------



## VacationForever

Ken555 said:


> Perhaps comparing to other Marriott weeks. My perspective is different, since for many years I have been successful at using SOs to go to Hawaii and that was a primary reason I bought Starwood long ago. If I can't even get a like for like redemption using DPs AND they make me pay for the privilege, who are they kidding?
> 
> It's relatively easy to go elsewhere, and I've been successful at using II for exchanging elsewhere using my SDO weeks.
> 
> If this stops working, such as devaluing the trading power of my SDO weeks in II (which may be occurring now) and Hawaii becomes more difficult to obtain via SOs, then I'll have to reconsider the entire game. BUT, Marriott will not get me to cough up more money to get less than I can get today - that's just a non-starter.


I absolutely hear you. It is good to have choices.  But when I read about how idiotic Marriott is in giving so few DC points for a week at WKV, it is about whose perspective.  I own in both systems and within the MVC DC world, 4050 is a generous sum.  With 4050 points, you can book 2 weeks in April at a 2BR in a small resort in Harbour Town in Hilton Head which we love, plus it comes with 10 free golf rounds per week.  We still have 150 points to spare after that.  Similarly for me, I will continue to use SOs when vacationing at the 2 Vistana resorts each year.  It is much more cost effective than using DCs to book these Vistana resorts.  However, if we decide that we need more DC points and that we would like to skip Vistana resorts for a year or 2, then we will elect DC points.


----------



## Ken555

Makes sense - for you. Choice is good, and Marriott (and other timeshare networks) know they can charge for choice.



VacationForever said:


> I absolutely hear you. It is good to have choices.  But when I read about how idiotic Marriott is in giving so few DC points for a week at WKV, it is about whose perspective.  I own in both systems and within the MVC DC world, 4050 is a generous sum.



Generous? I see that Marriott's Canyon Villas in Phoenix is about the same valuation. The chart shows it costs 4,175 DP to trade to a 2-bed during its highest season. I've been to this resort and given the choice I would rather go to WKV (especially considering the recent access rights limitations to the JW pool area). Even so, this means that Marriott is equating MCV with WKV. Does that mean 4050 DPs is generous? It just seems it's what they've already allocated for a week in the Phoenix area. But I should ask the question - how many DPs does a premium 2-bed week at MCV have for use? Is it the same 4050 as they are offering WKV? 



> With 4050 points, you can book 2 weeks in April at a 2BR in a small resort in Harbour Town in Hilton Head which we love, plus it comes with 10 free golf rounds per week.  We still have 150 points to spare after that.



Harbour Club at Harbour Town is 1,725 for a 2-bed per week. While I don't currently see April weeks available in II for this resort in exchange for my SDO, I do see other months. So, it's not inconceivable that this resort can be reserved for an affordable price by simply using II. Of course, 1,725:4,050 would be a similar cost to a 1-bed SDO with exchange fees. So all things being equal, with no enrollment fee, I would agree this would be a good use of the DPs, as long as that wasn't a year you wanted to go to Hawaii using SOs.



> Similarly for me, I will continue to use SOs when vacationing at the 2 Vistana resorts each year.  It is much more cost effective than using DCs to book these Vistana resorts.  However, if we decide that we need more DC points and that we would like to skip Vistana resorts for a year or 2, then we will elect DC points.



It sounds like you fit the profile for a good Marriott DP customer.


----------



## VacationForever

Ken555 said:


> Generous? I see that Marriott's Canyon Villas in Phoenix is about the same valuation. The chart shows it costs 4,175 DP to trade to a 2-bed during its highest season. I've been to this resort and given the choice I would rather go to WKV (especially considering the recent access rights limitations to the JW pool area). Even so, this means that Marriott is equating MCV with WKV. Does that mean 4050 DPs is generous? It just seems it's what they've already allocated for a week in the Phoenix area. But I should ask the question - how many DPs does a premium 2-bed week at MCV have for use? Is it the same 4050 as they are offering WKV?
> 
> Harbour Club at Harbour Town is 1,725 for a 2-bed per week. While I don't currently see April weeks available in II for this resort in exchange for my SDO, I do see other months. So, it's not inconceivable that this resort can be reserved for an affordable price by simply using II. Of course, 1,725:4,050 would be a similar cost to a 1-bed SDO with exchange fees. So all things being equal, with no enrollment fee, I would agree this would be a good use of the DPs, as long as that wasn't a year you wanted to go to Hawaii using SOs.
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like you fit the profile for a good Marriott DP customer.


Of course.  I love owning Marriott and Vistana.  Regarding the question of Canyon Villas, owners of platinum 2BR week get 2,950 DC points.

I am not referring to Harbour Club.  I would not stay at Harbour Club.  Heritage Club requires 1,950 DC points to book in April.  The 10 rounds of free golf is worth $1K as 3 of us play golf during the week.


----------



## remowidget

VacationForever said:


> I absolutely hear you. It is good to have choices.  But when I read about how idiotic Marriott is in giving so few DC points for a week at WKV, it is about whose perspective.  I own in both systems and within the MVC DC world, 4050 is a generous sum.  With 4050 points, you can book 2 weeks in April at a 2BR in a small resort in Harbour Town in Hilton Head which we love, plus it comes with 10 free golf rounds per week.  We still have 150 points to spare after that.  Similarly for me, I will continue to use SOs when vacationing at the 2 Vistana resorts each year.  It is much more cost effective than using DCs to book these Vistana resorts.  However, if we decide that we need more DC points and that we would like to skip Vistana resorts for a year or 2, then we will elect DC points.


Are you getting less DC points for 148100 staroptions at WKV than Hawaii is getting?


----------



## VacationForever

remowidget said:


> Are you getting less DC points for 148100 staroptions at WKV than Hawaii is getting?


Huh?  In the SO world, your 148100 SO from WKV world will get you a 2BR in Hawaii at a Westin, with ocean front/view costing more.  If it does not work for you in the DC world, then don't elect your Vistana week.  You get that choice every year.  I have no interest in going back to Westin properties in Hawaii so it is a moot point for me.


----------



## remowidget

VacationForever said:


> Huh?  In the SO world, your 148100 SO from WKV world will get you a 2BR in Hawaii at a Westin, with ocean front/view costing more.  If it does not work for you in the DC world, then don't elect your Vistana week.  You get that choice every year.  I have no interest in going back to Westin properties in Hawaii so it is a moot point for me.





VacationForever said:


> But when I read about how idiotic Marriott is in giving so few DC points for a week at WKV



Are you getting less DC points for 148100 staroptions at WKV than Hawaii is getting?

?? Actually,  I own Lagunamar. I would think that conversion to DC would be based upon how many Staroptions you have. It sounded to me like you had the same staroptions but getting less in DC transfer. Is your platinum 2 bedroom 148,100 staroptions? I would think if it is less staroptions, they would give you less DC points if you trade. It doesn't make sense that they would revalue all of the properties.

Maybe I'm lost in space about what you were saying.


----------



## VacationForever

remowidget said:


> Are you getting less DC points for 148100 staroptions at WKV than Hawaii is getting?
> 
> ?? Actually,  I own Lagunamar. I would think that conversion to DC would be based upon how many Staroptions you have. It sounded to me like you had the same staroptions but getting less in DC transfer. Is your platinum 2 bedroom 148,100 staroptions? I would think if it is less staroptions, they would give you less DC points if you trade. It doesn't make sense that they would revalue all of the properties.
> 
> Maybe I'm lost in space about what you were saying.


Other than Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex and Aventuras Flex, each week and season will get a different conversion.  Star Options mean nothing in their conversion.  If you own at SVV or WKV and the intent is to stay at Westin in Hawaii using SOs, then you should remain in VSN and not even bother with MVC DC program.  If your Westin Lagunamar comes with SOs, then if you want to use SOs to book at other VSN resorts, nothing has changed.  I see it as having choice and I get to pick and choose what I want to do each year.  For instance, I own weeks and points in MVC and most of the time I deposit my weeks into II.  I use points for hard to book places where we want to go.


----------



## tschwa2

remowidget said:


> Are you getting less DC points for 148100 staroptions at WKV than Hawaii is getting?
> 
> ?? Actually,  I own Lagunamar. I would think that conversion to DC would be based upon how many Staroptions you have. It sounded to me like you had the same staroptions but getting less in DC transfer. Is your platinum 2 bedroom 148,100 staroptions? I would think if it is less staroptions, they would give you less DC points if you trade. It doesn't make sense that they would revalue all of the properties.
> 
> Maybe I'm lost in space about what you were saying.


But that is what they will likely do.  A true platinum SDO is not going to get the same DP's as an Hawaii ocean view and even an ocean view hawaii will get more than an Island view even though they are all worth 148,100 points.  I doubt a summer Harborside will get the same as a 2 BR platinum SVV even though they both get 95,700 points.


----------



## remowidget

tschwa2 said:


> But that is what they will likely do.  A true platinum SDO is not going to get the same DP's as an Hawaii ocean view and even an ocean view hawaii will get more than an Island view even though they are all worth 148,100 points.  I doubt a summer Harborside will get the same as a 2 BR platinum SVV even though they both get 95,700 points.



I think I understand where the discussion is going now. Thanks.


----------



## MICROZE

remowidget said:


> I think I understand where the discussion is going now. Thanks.


We own WLR & WKV so those #'s are exact. However, the #'s for Hawaii are approximates.
Based on the posts earlier in this thread we expect.

WLR-2BR-PLAT+ [148.1K-SO] = 4950-DCP
WKV-2BR-PLAT+ [148.1K-SO] = 4050-DCP
HAWAII-2BR-ISLAND-VIEW [148.1K-SO] = ~7500-DCP
HAWAII-2BR-OCEAN-VIEW/FRONT [176K-SO] = ~8500-DCP


----------



## Markus

vacationtime1 said:


> We will be at WKORVN in five weeks and I was considering a presentation to learn what I can learn.  But it is painfully obvious that too many of the "facts" given at these presentations are out-and-out lies offered as scare tactics to sell rather than an introduction to the new system.  So why bother?
> 
> I would love to give Marriott some feedback (such as its idiocy in thinking the owner of a Kierland platinum+ week would elect points if they would receive only 4050 points -- and why should I bother to enroll in DC given that fact), but it's not worth the effort or vacation time in that I will learn nothing of value in exchange.
> 
> So thank you for posting this.  It saved me sitting through a presentation.


I wish I had not gone either. We were with 2 other couples and I called out a salesman that was with my friends. He was trying to get them to trade their Platinum plus week at Kierland for Sheraton Flex. He was claiming the Mfs on a 148,100 Sheraton Flex were lower than those if the 148,100 Kierland week! They are actually $1,000 higher per year.


----------



## Ken555

Markus said:


> I wish I had not gone either. We were with 2 other couples and I called out a salesman that was with my friends. He was trying to get them to trade their Platinum plus week at Kierland for Sheraton Flex. He was claiming the Mfs on a 148,100 Sheraton Flex were lower than those if the 148,100 Kierland week! They are actually $1,000 higher per year.



Yet another example of why I call them all sales weasels. But, someone needs to pay retail! (It just shouldn't be anyone smart enough to spend time on TUG and do their research).


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> Yet another example of why I call them all sales weasels. But, someone needs to pay retail! (It just shouldn't be anyone smart enough to spend time on TUG and do their research).





Markus said:


> I wish I had not gone either. We were with 2 other couples and I called out a salesman that was with my friends. He was trying to get them to trade their Platinum plus week at Kierland for Sheraton Flex. He was claiming the Mfs on a 148,100 Sheraton Flex were lower than those if the 148,100 Kierland week! They are actually $1,000 higher per year.


Wow. I wish you got their name, maybe we should start a sales rep hall of shame and start listing their lies along with their names on TUG and Facebook…l


----------



## DavidnRobin

Why exchange WKV Plat for DCP when I can use WKV for Maui (or WSJ, or WLR, or…) as a SO exchange relatively easy since we don’t travel during ‘High’ season?

In my last 2 visits to WKORV (Sept 2021 and Sept 2019) - I used 81K WKV SOs and was ‘surprised and delighted’ to get a 1Bd OF villa (worth 95.7K SOs). The value of having the #1 Timestamp I assume (or they just love me?).

I don’t expect this to happen again, but I still can get a 1Bd in Maui.

Why would I transfer WKV Plat to DCP?
What does the equivalent get me in MVC?

Plus, I also rent WKV Plat - but apparently need to charge more - $2800!!! Yikes! I only charged $2300 for 2022. No wonder it rented so quickly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MICROZE

DavidnRobin said:


> Plus, I also rent WKV Plat - but apparently need to charge more - $2800!!! Yikes! I only charged $2300 for 2022. No wonder it rented so quickly.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


To be exact, we rented 3 x Large-1BR for $2796 and 1 x Large-1BR for $3146 [Super-Bowl-Week: FEB-05].
Rented 2 x 1BR-Small for $2496 & the rest for $2346.

Over the last few years have noticed a pattern that the FEB-Weeks [and few APR-Weeks] go faster and for higher asking.
*Tips*

The consensus is that MAR is Peak, which results in high-supply which in-turn it drives prices down.
So, I adapted and moved to reserving FEB/APR where the supply is close to [me alone] and people pay for what's available.

Verified & Protected: These weeks go faster and command a higher price.
When someone is willing to spend this kind of money [a year in advance], they are willing to pay a little more for peace of mind.

Repeat-Customers: I am very flexible and even make late changes if possible for no cost.
For 2022, one realty company rented 8 x Weeks. They have already rented 4 for 2023 and pay upfront.
Since we trust each other, they save money [avoid RedWeek fees] by drafting a custom contract.
Thus, these are being rented for more than what I list them.

Prices have risen quite dramatically from the COVID-Lows of ~$10K [148.1K] where we picked up a few. Wish we had picked up a few more.


----------



## TravelTime

vacationtime1 said:


> We will be at WKORVN in five weeks and I was considering a presentation to learn what I can learn.  But it is painfully obvious that too many of the "facts" given at these presentations are out-and-out lies offered as scare tactics to sell rather than an introduction to the new system.  So why bother?
> 
> I would love to give Marriott some feedback (such as its idiocy in thinking the owner of a Kierland platinum+ week would elect points if they would receive only 4050 points -- and why should I bother to enroll in DC given that fact), but it's not worth the effort or vacation time in that I will learn nothing of value in exchange.
> 
> So thank you for posting this.  It saved me sitting through a presentation.



If you want access to all the resorts in MVC, then converting to DPs makes sense. I think 4050 is probably a lot more than you will get. Who told you 4050 DPs?


----------



## DanCali

VacationForever said:


> As someone who owns at MVC and Vistana, 4050 DC points for WKV is actually quite generous, more than most MVC platinum weeks, other than  Hawaii resorts.  Most MVC platinum weeks get somewhere between 2500 to 3500.






Ken555 said:


> Generous? I see that Marriott's Canyon Villas in Phoenix is about the same valuation. The chart shows it costs 4,175 DP to trade to a 2-bed during its highest season. I've been to this resort and given the choice I would rather go to WKV (especially considering the recent access rights limitations to the JW pool area). Even so, this means that Marriott is equating MCV with WKV. Does that mean 4050 DPs is generous? It just seems it's what they've already allocated for a week in the Phoenix area. But I should ask the question - how many DPs does a premium 2-bed week at MCV have for use? Is it the same 4050 as they are offering WKV?




I actually agree that the allotment to WKV 2BR Plat is relatively generous in Marriott terms. For Canyon Villas Platinum 2BR they actually allot 2950 points but the Platinum seasons are very different. WKV is 1-21, 51-52 while Canyon Villas is 1-17 and 41-51. MCV has week 52 as Platinum Plus which converts to 3900.  So it's not exactly a fair comparison since MCV has some lower demand weeks in the Fall part of their Platinum season that reduce the conversion value. I can also compare to my NCV Platinum weeks that covert to 3475. Those have a similar problem with a Platinum season that is 7 months long but only July and August are in extremely high demand. But those summer weeks rent for $3200+ (the value of about 4600+ points in the rental market)

So even if 4050 for WKV is relatively generous in Marriott terms, that doesn't mean it's a good option for owners when compared to other alternatives like trading in VSN or renting weeks. If I wanted to go Hawaii, I'd first try VSN before the DC. And if I wanted go to a different Marriott resort and I have a reservation at WKV or NCV that I can rent for substantially more than the value of the points they convert to, I just won't convert to points. Having the VSN option is nice but if availability at 8 months is limited or I want to expend my options to resorts not in VSN, the rental market is the ultimate equalizer...


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## TravelTime

Whatever the MVC chart shows, assume the actual amount your Vistana week will get is approx 1000 points less. I know this will sound terrible to Vistana owners. I am fine with this conversion because I like the flexibility of going many places and having more options than just what’s available with the VSN. However for folks who are not happy, you can continue staying where you own or using SOs. No loss.


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## TravelTime

Another thing is that the new MVC charts will be based on the location and not on SO value. The more desirable the location, the more DPs you will get. Like I said, assume you will get a conversion rate of about 1000 DPs less for whatever the comparable location you own in the MVC system.


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## Ken555

DanCali said:


> I actually agree that the allotment to WKV 2BR Plat is relatively generous in Marriott terms. For Canyon Villas Platinum 2BR they actually allot 2950 points but the Platinum seasons are very different.



Good info. 



> So even if 4050 for WKV is relatively generous in Marriott terms, that doesn't mean it's a good option for owners when compared to other alternatives like trading in VSN or renting weeks. If I wanted to go Hawaii, I'd first try VSN before the DC. And if I wanted go to a different Marriott resort and I have a reservation at WKV or NCV that I can rent for substantially more than the value of the points they convert to, I just won't convert to points. Having the VSN option is nice but if availability at 8 months is limited or I want to expend my options to resorts not in VSN, the rental market is the ultimate equalizer...



Since 2006 I have been able to use SOs to get Hawaii when I wanted - but my schedule is flexible. 

Still, not being able to trade as I have for years using DPs and the same ownership week is unfortunate. It seems that Marriott has been able to charge very high rates for Hawaii relative to the rest of their network. In comparison, I know that HGVC has more reasonable rates for their Hawaii resorts. Is this high rate isolated to Marriott (and perhaps Hyatt)? I don’t know as much about these other networks, but I keep returning to the fact that my WKV week has been able to get Hawaii for a very long time without issue, and now it won’t. 

I wonder if those of you who use both DPs and SOs also exchange via II? Perhaps the traditional exchange method and the value from it is missing from some of these calculations. For instance, I have three Maui weeks at WKORV-N later this year in exchange for my SDO weeks via II. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> Another thing is that the new MVC charts will be based on the location and not on SO value. The more desirable the location, the more DPs you will get...



That's exactly the point that people are upset about. At the launch of the DC in 2010 Marriott valued some Hawaii resorts disproportionately higher compared with other locations. Not surprisingly, they are doing the same with Vistana resorts. But it's not always justified.

I think you are implying that Maui is a much more desirable location than other Hawaii Islands, the continental US in general, and the desert specifically (at least based on how DC points were allotted). I might even agree with you in some cases - but I can also tell you that Spring in Scottsdale in highly desirable to plenty of people.

Marriott itself owns in many locations and rent their resorts continuously - they know better than all of us. And if the desert is so undesirable, why are they charging the rates below for a HOTEL ROOM for Spring Break in Scottsdale? Seems in the ballpark to Spring Break rates for a hotel room in Hawaii. You also kind of get similar results by comparing (timeshare) rental rates on RedWeek. Yet somehow when it comes to DC points WKV Platinum is worth 60% less than WKORV Platinum?


----------



## Venter

If I remember correctly at the roll out of DC some Tuggers worked out that the points were actually related to the original sales price.


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## jabberwocky

Ken555 said:


> Still, not being able to trade as I have for years using DPs and the same ownership week is unfortunate. It seems that Marriott has been able to charge very high rates for Hawaii relative to the rest of their network. In comparison, I know that HGVC has more reasonable rates for their Hawaii resorts. Is this high rate isolated to Marriott (and perhaps Hyatt)? I don’t know as much about these other networks, but I keep returning to the fact that my WKV week has been able to get Hawaii for a very long time without issue, and now it won’t.
> 
> I wonder if those of you who use both DPs and SOs also exchange via II? Perhaps the traditional exchange method and the value from it is missing from some of these calculations. For instance, I have three Maui weeks at WKORV-N later this year in exchange for my SDO weeks via II.


Vistana and Hilton have fairly simple points charts with wide seasons (even the underlying MVC weeks system has simple seasonal charts if you just look at the weeks themselves rather than the points).  This leaves some of the "surplus" benefit of booking a high-demand week to remain with the TS owners, but the corresponding downside to this is you may have other times where it may be more costly if you stay primarily in the off-season.  

In my view, Marriott takes the approach that they want to retain any surplus that would otherwise go to the owners.  You can get a high-demand week, but you're going to pay for it with high points values.  Sure you can pay less to stay in low periods, but the skim from not being able to book back into your deeded week ensures Marriott "wins" on average.


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## VacationForever

Venter said:


> If I remember correctly at the roll out of DC some Tuggers worked out that the points were actually related to the original sales price.


I heve not heard this one before but it makes sense.  I was not even on TUG nor owned Marriott timeshare when DC was rolled out in 2010.  But when I did become interested in buying into Marriott with all the sightings which I wished I could trade into, I looked at the DC chart and suspected that original developer sale prices had something to do with DC point allotment.  For instance, in Palm Desert area, Desert Springs were older and cheaper than Shadow Ridge when first sold by the developer, but is superior in size and quality of finish and yet it has slightly lower DC allotment when compared to Shadow Ridge.


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## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> That's exactly the point that people are upset about. At the launch of the DC in 2010 Marriott valued some Hawaii resorts disproportionately higher compared with other locations. Not surprisingly, they are doing the same with Vistana resorts. But it's not always justified.
> 
> I think you are implying that Maui is a much more desirable location than other Hawaii Islands, the continental US in general, and the desert specifically (at least based on how DC points were allotted). I might even agree with you in some cases - but I can also tell you that Spring in Scottsdale in highly desirable to plenty of people.
> 
> Marriott itself owns in many locations and rent their resorts continuously - they know better than all of us. And if the desert is so undesirable, why are they charging the rates below for a HOTEL ROOM for Spring Break in Scottsdale? Seems in the ballpark to Spring Break rates for a hotel room in Hawaii. You also kind of get similar results by comparing (timeshare) rental rates on RedWeek. Yet somehow when it comes to DC points WKV Platinum is worth 60% less than WKORV Platinum?
> 
> View attachment 52130
> 
> View attachment 52131



Perhaps for March but the rest of that season, it can be 1/3 to double or more to stay at Westin Maui vs Westin Scottsdale. MVC is not going to value its timeshares based on one month. 

I was also not thinking of just platinum season in the desert when I made my comments. I was thinking across the year that Maui is desirable while the desert is not.

BTW, Maui is not exactly my favorite place. It is my least favorite Hawaiian island even though I own a week there. Hawaii is not even my favorite place in the world either. It’s convenient from CA so that is why we go. But we go many other places all over the world.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> MVC is not going to value its timeshares based on one month.



Yes, but whatever method they use it's unrelated to rental values. Rental value is a real alternative for owners.

Other have suggested it may be developer price. Maybe, maybe not... But that's really a "sunk cost" and has nothing to do with what owners elect going forward.



TravelTime said:


> Perhaps for March but the rest of that season, it can be 1/3 to double or more to stay at Westin Maui vs Westin Scottsdale.



And as others pointed out WKV rents quite well in weeks outside of March as well.

WKV Platinum season is 1-21, 51-52. You can do the same exercise for January, February and April. Scottsdale seems 15%-20% less on average. The one exception (not below) is New Year's week where Maui is indeed double. But just week 52 - they are again similar for week 51.

I went with hotels because there is no availability on their website for the timeshare. And I went with a comparison as close as I could - Westin vs Westin, which is the analogous for the timeshare comparison (WKV vs WKORV). Looks like Marriott rents Scottsdale hotels for 15%-20% less than Maui but values it's timeshares at ~50% less. Why should owners play along?


----------



## DanCali

The ironic thing that makes this appear worse than it is, is that MVC was applying concepts similar from their hotel pricing when they list the separate units composing a lockoff unit as more valuable than the lockoff in its entirety. It's consistent with the DC, but this really did not exist in the Vistana world - and with WKV in particular.

(1) in Vistana MFs (+tax) for small 1BR: ~$660; MFs for large 1BR: ~$1060; MFs for 2BR lockoff: ~$1720
So while the smaller 1BR has some advantage over the larger 1BR in Staroptions/MF ratio (relative MF difference maybe reflecting real operating costs), the 2BR lockoff MFs adds up to the two units

(2) I believe purchase price from the developer for the 2BR lockoff was approximately the same as buying the two separate units

(3) The pre-covid resale purchase prices of the two separate units was about the same as buying the 2BR lockoff (for Platinum season around $6K for small 1BR, 8K for large 1BR, and $14K for the 2BR). Probably harder to see with Gold and Silver seasons where some of the resale weeks are much less desirable.

(4) The Staroptions of the small (67.1K) and the large (81K) sum up to the 2BR (148.1K)

(5) The rental market prices for the small 1BR and the large 1BR more or less sum up to the rental price of the 2BR lockoff (probably having to do with how Vistana owners themselves view the value of the separate or combined units given (1)-(4) above).

But now it looks like someone who owns a small 1BR and a large 1BR can trade for 4750(?) points while the 2BR lockoff gets 4050. That's a meaningful difference. It would not be worth mentioning if they let owners of a 2BR lockoff exchange just one side (like you can do with VSN and II) - but that still remains to be seen. I don't believe they allow that with MVC lockoff units.


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> Yes, but whatever method they use it's unrelated to rental values. Rental value is a real alternative for owners.
> 
> Other have suggested it may be developer price. Maybe, maybe not... But that's really a "sunk cost" and has nothing to do with what owners elect going forward.
> 
> 
> 
> And as others pointed out WKV rents quite well in weeks outside of March as well.
> 
> WKV Platinum season is 1-21, 51-52. You can do the same exercise for January, February and April. Scottsdale seems 15%-20% less on average. The one exception (not below) is New Year's week where Maui is indeed double. But just week 52 - they are again similar for week 51.
> 
> I went with hotels because there is no availability on their website for the timeshare. And I went with a comparison as close as I could - Westin vs Westin, which is the analogous for the timeshare comparison (WKV vs WKORV). Looks like Marriott rents Scottsdale hotels for 15%-20% less than Maui but values it's timeshares at ~50% less. Why should owners play along?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 52143View attachment 52147View attachment 52144View attachment 52148View attachment 52146View attachment 52149



Based on your data, it looks like there is a pretty big differential between WKV and Maui. Also I would guess that the other issue is room category. I assume you are comparing the lowest room category in Maui to the highest (or close to highest) room category in WKV. I am assuming that WKV does not have many room categories since there are no views like at an oceanside resort. I really do not think MVC has a conspiracy thing going on. I suspect their experts are smart and they know how to price. You really need to look at every room category in both hotels across all seasons to do determine if Marriott is pricing appropriately.


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## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> Based on your data, it looks like there is a pretty big differential between WKV and Maui. Also I would guess that the other issue is room category. I assume you are comparing the lowest room category in Maui to the highest (or close to highest) room category in WKV....
> 
> I suspect their experts are smart and they know how to price...




I did admit there is a difference. Yes, it's the lowest priced rooms (remember these are hotel rooms, not timeshares, so I'm not comparing a studio on Maui to a 1BR at WKV).

I also said that difference is about 15%-20% by eyeballing it. Whether that's "pretty big" or "big" or "small" that's subjective. It's certainly not as much as WKV is undervalued below compared to others. We've compared it to Maui a lot in this thread, but it's even more obvious with WLR where rental values on Redweek and marriott.com are significantly lower (50%+ less) than WKV peak season. Not only are summer weeks (part of Platinum season at WLR) still available on marriott.com - you can get a 2BR for mid-July for ~$350/night.

For some reason the "experts" doing this really like an ocean next to the resort, even if it has nothing to do with supply/demand...





MICROZE said:


> We own WLR & WKV so those #'s are exact. However, the #'s for Hawaii are approximates.
> Based on the posts earlier in this thread we expect.
> 
> WLR-2BR-PLAT+ [148.1K-SO] = 4950-DCP
> WKV-2BR-PLAT+ [148.1K-SO] = 4050-DCP
> HAWAII-2BR-ISLAND-VIEW [148.1K-SO] = ~7500-DCP
> HAWAII-2BR-OCEAN-VIEW/FRONT [176K-SO] = ~8500-DCP


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## Ken555

DanCali said:


> I did admit there is a difference. Yes, it's the lowest priced rooms (remember these are hotel rooms, not timeshares, so I'm not comparing a studio on Maui to a 1BR at WKV).
> 
> I also said that difference is about 15%-20% by eyeballing it. Whether that's "pretty big" or "big" or "small" that's subjective. It's certainly not as much as WKV is undervalued below compared to others. We've compared it to Maui a lot in this thread, but it's even more obvious with WLR where rental values on Redweek and marriott.com are significantly lower (50%+ less) than WKV peak season. Not only are summer weeks (part of Platinum season at WLR) still available on marriott.com - you can get a 2BR for mid-July for ~$350/night.
> 
> For some reason the "experts" doing this really like an ocean next to the resort, even if it has nothing to do with supply/demand...



Every resort/hotel seems to be currently less expensive in Cancun than in the Phoenix area. I don't know if this is an indication of the times or if it's been this way for years.


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## DanCali

Ken555 said:


> Every resort/hotel seems to be currently less expensive in Cancun than in the Phoenix area. I don't know if this is an indication of the times or if it's been this way for years.



To be honest, I don't know. Justifiably or not, Mexico has some reputation that it can be an unsafe place (cartels, crime, tainted booze, corrupt police - not sure how much any of this affects tourists, if at all) so I suspect some potential visitors just opt to go to other locations.

That said, I don't think AZ is in direct competition with Cancun, but the peak season in AZ is in much higher demand by any metric.


----------



## Ken555

DanCali said:


> To be honest, I don't know. Justifiably or not, Mexico has some reputation that it can be an unsafe place (cartels, crime, tainted booze, corrupt police - not sure how much any of this affects tourists, if at all) so I suspect some potential visitors just opt to go to other locations.
> 
> That said, I don't think AZ is in direct competition with Cancun, but the peak season in AZ is in much higher demand by any metric.



Yes. Thanks for the comparison info - it just reinforces my opinion that Marriott is devaluing WKV relative to its current SO exchange capability and shows how poor a deal it is to enroll WKV Plat+ weeks, as long as SO use is available.


----------



## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> Every resort/hotel seems to be currently less expensive in Cancun than in the Phoenix area. I don't know if this is an indication of the times or if it's been this way for years.


Cancun also has 30,000 hotel rooms. Lots of competition.


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## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> Yes. Thanks for the comparison info - it just reinforces my opinion that Marriott is devaluing WKV relative to its current SO exchange capability and shows how poor a deal it is to enroll WKV Plat+ weeks, as long as SO use is available.


THat may be the key. Will WKORV owners be more likely to convert their weeks to MVC Club points, thus leaving less availablilty of them with StarOptions? It could be possible in the new system for a WKORV owner to get maybe 12-14 nights at WKV using Club Points where right now they get seven. The big question will be what inventory looks like in VSN after all is said and done several years down the road.


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## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> THat may be the key. Will WKORV owners be more likely to convert their weeks to MVC Club points, thus leaving less availablilty of them with StarOptions? It could be possible in the new system for a WKORV owner to get maybe 12-14 nights at WKV using Club Points where right now they get seven. The big question will be what inventory looks like in VSN after all is said and done several years down the road.



Based on the sentiment here they may not find lots of WKV inventory in the DC exchange   

But your point is still quite valid - 7500-8500 DC points is very good trading power to exchange into other Marriott resorts.


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> Based on the sentiment here they may not find lots of WKV inventory in the DC exchange
> 
> But your point is still quite valid - 7500-8500 DC points is very good trading power to exchange into other Marriott resorts.


Very true, they may convert hoping for WKV and have to settle for MCV.


----------



## Red elephant

DanCali said:


> Based on the sentiment here they may not find lots of WKV inventory in the DC exchange
> 
> But your point is still quite valid - 7500-8500 DC points is very good trading power to exchange into other Marriott resorts.


Unfortunately this is a very small group of owners. Majority of owners may want to deposit into DP to go elsewhere in MVC. Especially if they receive enough points to do so. So the real question is that can dose points get you elsewhere in the Marriott system?


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## CPNY

Red elephant said:


> Unfortunately this is a very small group of owners. Majority of owners may want to deposit into DP to go elsewhere in MVC. Especially if they receive enough points to do so. So the real question is that can dose points get you elsewhere in the Marriott system?


Most owners don’t even know their VSN weeks can turn into star options at 8 months….. they just book what they own and call it a day.


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## TravelTime

From reading over the years on TUG, I have been under the impression that many people buy at WKV because the MFs are low and they use it for SOs as opposed to actually staying there on a regular basis. Is that the case?


----------



## Red elephant

TravelTime said:


> From reading over the years on TUG, I have been under the impression that many people buy at WKV because the MFs are low and they use it for SOs as opposed to actually staying there on a regular basis. Is that the case?


That’s the impression I got here too after doing some reading but then again this is a small group of owners.


----------



## ocdb8r

TravelTime said:


> From reading over the years on TUG, I have been under the impression that many people buy at WKV because the MFs are low and they use it for SOs as opposed to actually staying there on a regular basis. Is that the case?



I think you should look at it slightly differently - in almost ALL of the systems, TUGGERS gravitate toward those ownerships with the lowest annual costs for maximum flexibility.  With Vistana, WKV has been an easy standout as it's been the lowest annual cost for a "mandatory" week...and Vistana has been a unique system in the relative equality in staroptions across weeks (regardless of location). 

You see a similar trend in the HGVC forum, with certain of the Vegas weeks being repeatedly discussed. Although, over time, HGVC has moved away from what was relative equality in HGVC points across most resorts.

In the 90's and early 2000's on the trading side (II/RCI) there was an obsession with various South African resorts which offered relatively high trade power and low annual fees.

So, in short, I don't think there's necessary "many" people buying WKV because the MFs are low and they use it for SOs, but rather many TUGGERS.


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## CPNY

ocdb8r said:


> So, in short, I don't think there's necessary "many" people buying WKV because the MFs are low and they use it for SOs, but rather many TUGGERS.



Very true! Although it’s starting to become more common knowledge in many of the Facebook groups as well.


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## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> From reading over the years on TUG, I have been under the impression that many people buy at WKV because the MFs are low and they use it for SOs as opposed to actually staying there on a regular basis. Is that the case?


Around here that is the case, but another benefit of owning WKV is renting. A good spring break week will rent well above MF. So, if the VSN changes in the future and the SO usability isn’t there, WKV owners will still be able to rent for a nice profit.


----------



## carpie99

travelhacker said:


> I believe that a 1 bedroom platinum unit at WKV is slated to get 2150 DP points.
> 
> I look at the Marriott point chart, and personally, I am excited about the possibilities. I have no idea what the availability would be like but I have been very, very good at adapting to travel to places where I feel like I am getting the best bang for my buck.
> 
> I could definitely see me booking 5 nights during fall break at Crystal Shores for a pittance and then using my HRC ownership to add a couple of nights at Hyatt Coconut Plantation.
> 
> I could also see me doing something similar with Newport Coast Villas, Oceana Palms, Ocean Pointe, the HHI resorts, etc.
> 
> The biggest factor that remains to be seen is how good availability for less than a week will be for me.
> 
> I would plan on traveling during the lowest season that would be possible given the school schedule.



I was told that you can't book less than 7 days without owning at least 4000+ points


----------



## carpie99

VacationForever said:


> I absolutely hear you. It is good to have choices.  But when I read about how idiotic Marriott is in giving so few DC points for a week at WKV, it is about whose perspective.  I own in both systems and within the MVC DC world, 4050 is a generous sum.  With 4050 points, you can book 2 weeks in April at a 2BR in a small resort in Harbour Town in Hilton Head which we love, plus it comes with 10 free golf rounds per week.  We still have 150 points to spare after that.  Similarly for me, I will continue to use SOs when vacationing at the 2 Vistana resorts each year.  It is much more cost effective than using DCs to book these Vistana resorts.  However, if we decide that we need more DC points and that we would like to skip Vistana resorts for a year or 2, then we will elect DC points.



What courses do you get the 10 free golf rounds?


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## liongate88

CPNY said:


> Around here that is the case, but another benefit of owning WKV is renting. A good spring break week will rent well above MF. So, if the VSN changes in the future and the SO usability isn’t there, WKV owners will still be able to rent for a nice profit.



So, would there be a very good chance you wont be able to use SO after the merge for all Mandatory resorts? Is there any legal implication if they do this or this is a benefit they just can take away anytime. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jabberwocky

CPNY said:


> Around here that is the case, but another benefit of owning WKV is renting. A good spring break week will rent well above MF. So, if the VSN changes in the future and the SO usability isn’t there, WKV owners will still be able to rent for a nice profit.


And we shouldn't forget that it is a really nice resort to stay at as an owner.


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## CPNY

liongate88 said:


> So, would there be a very good chance you wont be able to use SO after the merge for all Mandatory resorts? Is there any legal implication if they do this or this is a benefit they just can take away anytime.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I believe they can make any changes they want at any time they want. I could be wrong on that, but I’m sure there is always a way! I doubt they would drastically change the VSN even if they could. It would turn off many owners. They make most of their money on existing owners.


----------



## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> And we shouldn't forget that it is a really nice resort to stay at as an owner.


You’re right. I should have added that tidbit in.


----------



## VacationForever

carpie99 said:


> What courses do you get the 10 free golf rounds?


It is called Heritage Golf Collection.  Most owners stay there and not trade out their weeks because their MF pay for the included golf rounds.


----------



## carpie99

VacationForever said:


> It is called Heritage Golf Collection.  Most owners stay there and not trade out their weeks because their MF pay for the included golf rounds.



Sorry ... 10 free rounds per week of accommodations?  Any costs at all at the course?  I just got back from a week at SurfWatch ... I am very interested in this


----------



## dioxide45

carpie99 said:


> Sorry ... 10 free rounds per week of accommodations?  Any costs at all at the course?  I just got back from a week at SurfWatch ... I am very interested in this


Search for "Heritage" in the Marriott forum and you should see a number of threads on the topic. 10 rounds of golf per villa (7 night stay). No charges and cart is also free. I don't have a list of courses that are included. Apparently the list of courses has changed over the years and the courses included now aren't as good as those in the past.


----------



## DanCali

carpie99 said:


> I was told that you can't book less than 7 days without owning at least 4000+ points



You can book 1+ nights at 10 months out for anything less than 7000 points.

You can book 1+ night at 13 months out with 7000 or more points.


----------



## duke

Went to Owners Update:

DC points for each:
WMH - Platinum - 3,150
Princeville - 4,300
SMV - Winter - 3,125
VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950

Was also told:
1. Maui would be 7,450
2. No sales of deeded units or Flex after merger.  Only sales of DC points.
3. DC points will cost 15.92/point
4. DC points allocated to current VSE owners are dependent on location, season, and PRICE PAID.
5. No requals or trade in after merger.

Received $150 for attending.


----------



## Ken555

duke said:


> 5. No requals or trade in after merger.



Yeah, sure.


----------



## robertk2012

duke said:


> Went to Owners Update:
> 
> DC points for each:
> WMH - Platinum - 3,150
> Princeville - 4,300
> SMV - Winter - 3,125
> VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950
> 
> Was also told:
> 1. Maui would be 7,450
> 2. No sales of deeded units or Flex after merger. Only sales of DC points.
> 3. DC points will cost 15.92/point
> 4. DC points allocated to current VSE owners are dependent on location, season, and PRICE PAID.
> 5. No requals or trade in after merger.
> 
> Received $150 for attending.



Price paid???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DanCali

duke said:


> Went to Owners Update:
> 
> DC points for each:
> WMH - Platinum - 3,150
> Princeville - 4,300
> SMV - Winter - 3,125
> VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950
> 
> Was also told:
> 1. Maui would be 7,450




I'm sure WPORV are not happy finding out that now they are worth 57% of Maui after being on par all these years...


----------



## VacationForever

robertk2012 said:


> Price paid???
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Original developer price, presumably adjusted to net present value.  I see a loose correlation in MVC weeks to DC point conversion.


----------



## DanCali

robertk2012 said:


> Price paid???
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I assumed that meant developer pricing.


----------



## VacationForever

I won't trust any of these conversion numbers given out by sales people.  None of these is official number.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

duke said:


> 4. DC points allocated to current VSE owners are dependent on location, season, and PRICE PAID.
> 5. No requals or trade in after merger.



Thanks for sharing. What did you decide?

Well these are deal-killers for us. We don't need to trade because we trade in SOs and HGV which is much less expensive and simple. We'll continue to enjoy our existing WKORVN OF smiling all the way to the bank!


----------



## duke

VacationForever said:


> I won't trust any of these conversion numbers given out by sales people.  None of these is official number.



These are official numbers.  I have my sheet and the DC points are clearly listed.
They said these were released today.
AGAIN, I got a copy of my official sheet with all the info.

AND, yes, sucks for Princeville vs Maui.
AND, yes, YOUR purchase price is figured into your DC point conversion.....per meeting today.


----------



## DanCali

VacationForever said:


> I won't trust any of these conversion numbers given out by sales people.  None of these is official number.



Agree, but his is all quite consistent with the current point allocation in the DC to the Marriott resorts.

Maui gets a relatively generous points allocation compared to everything else, even other Hawaii islands.


----------



## robertk2012

duke said:


> These are official numbers. I have my sheet and the DC points are clearly listed.
> They said these were released today.
> AGAIN, I got a copy of my official sheet with all the info.
> 
> AND, yes, sucks for Princeville vs Maui.
> AND, yes, YOUR purchase price is figured into your DC point conversion.....per meeting today.



“Official” like all of the documents they print out in their little binders of BS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## robertk2012

duke said:


> These are official numbers. I have my sheet and the DC points are clearly listed.
> They said these were released today.
> AGAIN, I got a copy of my official sheet with all the info.
> 
> AND, yes, sucks for Princeville vs Maui.
> AND, yes, YOUR purchase price is figured into your DC point conversion.....per meeting today.



Everyone’s purchase price is different…so will they all be different conversions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DanCali

duke said:


> AND, yes, YOUR purchase price is figured into your DC point conversion.....per meeting today.



This is the biggest BS I heard from sales in a long time. They don't even know the purchase price for my resale weeks since WKV and HRA have no ROFR....


----------



## duke

robertk2012 said:


> “Official” like all of the documents they print out in their little binders of BS.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



My numbers posted are NOT from the "binder".
They are from my "Daily Tour Profile Report"
This is MY PROFILE.
So, my DC conversion points are relative to whatever means they use (including purchase price) to determine how many DC points I can convert to.
Again, this sucks.
Oh, and to add - your ELITE status is in VSE not DC.
They have not determined if they will "grandfather" your VSE status into DC.
This did say that your "election value" (DC Point value) is what determines your DC Status.
Also, the 10% starpoint bonus you get for being 5 Star Elite is only available in the VSE program.
In the DC program your Chairman level only allows conversion 75% of your SO int SP with no bonus.....


----------



## VacationForever

It is developer price not "your" purchase price.


----------



## VacationForever

duke said:


> My numbers posted are NOT from the "binder".
> They are from my "Daily Tour Profile Report"
> This is MY PROFILE.
> So, my DC conversion points are relative to whatever means they use (including purchase price) to determine how many DC points I can convert to.
> Again, this sucks.


Your Daily Tour Profile Report is prepared by the local sales team.  It is not official until it is published by Vistana and Marriott, and when they show up on your dashboard.


----------



## alexadeparis

DanCali said:


> This is the biggest BS I heard from sales in a long time. They don't even know the purchase price for my resale weeks since WKV and HRA have no ROFR....


On my sheet that i saw but did not get a copy of, although i got a picture i believe the original price paid by the original owner WAS listed. Obviously that was NOT the price i paid for the resale. Note that the circled one is the only one i actually bought from them, they circled that, maybe for that reason?


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> This is the biggest BS I heard from sales in a long time. They don't even know the purchase price for my resale weeks since WKV and HRA have no ROFR....


The do know the original contract sales price though.


----------



## VacationForever

alexadeparis said:


> On my sheet that i saw but did not get a copy of, although i got a picture i believe the original price paid by the original owner WAS listed. Obviously that was NOT the price i paid for the resale. Note that the circled one is the only one i actually bought from them, they circled that, maybe for that reason?
> 
> 
> View attachment 52310


Did you pay $21,990 for every other year SVR in 2011?  It seems pretty high.  If not, then maybe it is adjusted for net present value.


----------



## alexadeparis

VacationForever said:


> Did you pay $21,990 for every other year SVR in 2011?  It seems pretty high.  If not, then maybe it is adjusted for net present value.


It was for TWO units that one and the one below that they have crossed out they are both 81000 SOs each total 162000 Eoy


----------



## Eric B

alexadeparis said:


> On my sheet that i saw but did not get a copy of, although i got a picture i believe the original price paid by the original owner WAS listed. Obviously that was NOT the price i paid for the resale. Note that the circled one is the only one i actually bought from them, they circled that, maybe for that reason?
> 
> 
> View attachment 52310



The data sheets they showed me at my recent update at WSJ listed the original price paid by someone for the weeks I own as being "equity" along with another column titled "resale equity" and didn't include any indication of how many DC points the various (all resale) weeks would be eligible to trade for if requalified or anything like that.  No idea who is making up these data sheets for the sales force, but if they really want to get any kind of persuasive point out, they ought to standardize the type of manure they are spreading.  It doesn't seem like they are equipped to deal with owners sharing information from these presentations....!


----------



## robertk2012

duke said:


> My numbers posted are NOT from the "binder".
> They are from my "Daily Tour Profile Report"
> This is MY PROFILE.
> So, my DC conversion points are relative to whatever means they use (including purchase price) to determine how many DC points I can convert to.
> Again, this sucks.
> Oh, and to add - your ELITE status is in VSE not DC.
> They have not determined if they will "grandfather" your VSE status into DC.
> This did say that your "election value" (DC Point value) is what determines your DC Status.
> Also, the 10% starpoint bonus you get for being 5 Star Elite is only available in the VSE program.
> In the DC program your Chairman level only allows conversion 75% of your SO int SP with no bonus.....



Starpoint? If they won’t put it in the contract it isn’t even worth the toilet paper in the bathroom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> The do know the original contract sales price though.




Yes, they would know the original developer sales price. 

But @duke implied it was "YOUR" purchase price which, I can believe would be something told by a salesperson in an effort to get you to spend...


----------



## jabberwocky

alexadeparis said:


> It was for TWO units that one and the one below that they have crossed out they are both 81000 SOs each total 162000 Eoy


That's almost identical to what we paid for our EY SVR (also in 2011).


----------



## remowidget

duke said:


> AND, yes, sucks for Princeville vs Maui.
> AND, yes, YOUR purchase price is figured into your DC point conversion.....per meeting today.



We originally bought Princeville maybe 12 years ago over Maui because it was about 10% cheaper, around $5k I think. We traded it off a couple years later.


----------



## kozykritter

duke said:


> They have not determined if they will "grandfather" your VSE status into DC.
> This did say that your "election value" (DC Point value) is what determines your DC Status.


This is exactly what you would expect them to tell an owner when trying to sell them more ownership. I'm going to choose to believe Denise's source instead who said Vistana elite statuses are mapped to corresponding MVC statuses regardless of DC conversion levels, just 'cause I want it to be true


----------



## duke

I looked at my sheet and you are correct Purchase Price is really Contract Price at time of original sale.
Resales are listed as Resales even if they are "Requalified" which they show as "authorized".

What really sucks is that in Vistana all 148,100 SO can trade in VSN as same.
IN DC that is not the case......so Contract Price must not really matter....(Princeville).


----------



## MICROZE

duke said:


> Went to Owners Update:
> 
> DC points for each:
> WMH - Platinum - 3,150
> Princeville - 4,300
> SMV - Winter - 3,125
> VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950
> 
> Was also told:
> 1. Maui would be 7,450
> 2. No sales of deeded units or Flex after merger.  Only sales of DC points.
> 3. DC points will cost 15.92/point
> 4. DC points allocated to current VSE owners are dependent on location, season, and PRICE PAID.
> 5. No requals or trade in after merger.
> 
> Received $150 for attending.


Thanks for posting.

This seems to match what we were told at last week's presentation *#1320*.


----------



## alexadeparis

jabberwocky said:


> That's almost identical to what we paid for our EY SVR (also in 2011).


Good to know. This wasn’t our net price, because we also traded in a unit that I got for free to begin with, so I think the out the door price was really $14,000 if memory serves.


----------



## VacationForever

alexadeparis said:


> Good to know. This wasn’t our net price, because we also traded in a unit that I got for free to begin with, so I think the out the door price was really $14,000 if memory serves.


Is the 3rd line, SVV, 2BR/LO in High Season?  I found the reference of High Season in your earlier post and saw that it was 81K SO.  But this new post said 2BR.


----------



## alexadeparis

VacationForever said:


> Is the 3rd line, SVV, 2BR/LO in High Season?  I found the reference of High Season in your earlier post and saw that it was 81K SO.  But this new post said 2BR.


Yes 3rd line is an SVV 81,000 L/O = Gold Plus on SVN chart


----------



## ocdb8r

alexadeparis said:


> Yes 3rd line is an SVV 81,000 L/O = Gold Plus on SVN chart


Are you saying SVV Gold Plus (normally worth 81,000) will be worth 2,950 DPs?

Has anyone seen DPs for a true SDO Platinum?


----------



## daviator

So I just finished an owner update at WDW.  My strategy today was to go in playing dumb, I said I wasn't looking to buy anything but just wanted to learn about the new changes and how they would affect me.

My salesperson said I should have been contacted previously and gotten a Zoom presentation to share all the details with me and offer me a chance to enroll in the new program.  He was quite surprised when I told him I had not been contacted.  So then he went away to get the offers I apparently should have received.

His whole pitch was really oriented around getting me to turn my existing 81,000 EOY Westin Flex into EY (either keeping 81,000 EY or another option to take 69,000 EY) which is what would get me into the Marriott program and give me access to those resorts.  He was clear that I needed to buy something more if I wanted to have access to the Marriott properties, but that if I upgraded my Flex that would give me the trading power of my entire portfolio on the Marriott side. 

He emphasized several times that the Marriott program was much more generous and that 81,000 Westin Flex would get me two weeks in almost any of the resorts, including Maui and here in Palm Desert, so it would be very advantageous for me to buy more and enroll in the Marriott program because I'd get much more usage time in the Marriott program.  And so many owners are opting for the new program that there's just not going to be much inventory left in the VSN.

I could go on and on, but basically I think it was all lies.  From what I think I know, I will be able to elect into the DP program year-by-year and I don't need to purchase anything to do so.  He also told me that I'd be Chairman's Club level in the Marriott program, which would allow me to book everything at 13 months which only 30% of their owners can do, so I'd have easy availability everywhere since I would have earlier access than 70% of owners.

It was all a big and complicated combination of half-truths and outright lies from both programs, and I was disappointed that I didn't really learn anything useful.  I was not provided any information on what my existing ownership would be worth in the DP program (because I apparently won't have access to that program unless I buy more!)

Oh, he also said that they were about two weeks away from switching to only selling Marriott DP points, and that they were about twice as expensive for the same usage, with higher MFs.  So buy now!  

I was hoping to enhance my understanding but I don't think I was told anything of value.  After an hour he sent me out to the lobby to get my incentive and I was on my way.


----------



## CPNY

daviator said:


> So I just finished an owner update at WDW.  My strategy today was to go in playing dumb, I said I wasn't looking to buy anything but just wanted to learn about the new changes and how they would affect me.
> 
> My salesperson said I should have been contacted previously and gotten a Zoom presentation to share all the details with me and offer me a chance to enroll in the new program.  He was quite surprised when I told him I had not been contacted.  So then he went away to get the offers I apparently should have received.
> 
> His whole pitch was really oriented around getting me to turn my existing 81,000 EOY Westin Flex into EY (either keeping 81,000 EY or another option to take 69,000 EY) which is what would get me into the Marriott program and give me access to those resorts.  He was clear that I needed to buy something more if I wanted to have access to the Marriott properties, but that if I upgraded my Flex that would give me the trading power of my entire portfolio on the Marriott side.
> 
> He emphasized several times that the Marriott program was much more generous and that 81,000 Westin Flex would get me two weeks in almost any of the resorts, including Maui and here in Palm Desert, so it would be very advantageous for me to buy more and enroll in the Marriott program because I'd get much more usage time in the Marriott program.  And so many owners are opting for the new program that there's just not going to be much inventory left in the VSN.
> 
> I could go on and on, but basically I think it was all lies.  From what I think I know, I will be able to elect into the DP program year-by-year and I don't need to purchase anything to do so.  He also told me that I'd be Chairman's Club level in the Marriott program, which would allow me to book everything at 13 months which only 30% of their owners can do, so I'd have easy availability everywhere since I would have earlier access than 70% of owners.
> 
> It was all a big and complicated combination of half-truths and outright lies from both programs, and I was disappointed that I didn't really learn anything useful.  I was not provided any information on what my existing ownership would be worth in the DP program (because I apparently won't have access to that program unless I buy more!)
> 
> Oh, he also said that they were about two weeks away from switching to only selling Marriott DP points, and that they were about twice as expensive for the same usage, with higher MFs.  So buy now!
> 
> I was hoping to enhance my understanding but I don't think I was told anything of value.  After an hour he sent me out to the lobby to get my incentive and I was on my way.



So let me guess this right. You purchased your WOY Westin flex from vistana but you have to buy another point contract in order for that contract to be enrolled? The lies are pathetic. 

So wait, their pitch is, the Marriott program is more generous so buy into this not so generous program for an absurd about of money so you can use the more generous program one day? These sales reps need to be fired, Marriott sales is the worst.


----------



## daviator

CPNY said:


> So let me guess this right. You purchased your WOY Westin flex from vistana but you have to buy another point contract in order for that contract to be enrolled? The lies are pathetic.
> 
> So wait, their pitch is, the Marriott program is more generous so buy into this not so generous program for an absurd about of money so you can use the more generous program one day? These sales reps need to be fired, Marriott sales is the worst.


Excellent summary.  Yes, that's basically what he said.  A quote: "they are giving you all kinds of new travel options, so of course they ask for a little bit in return."  

The best thing I can say is that he let me go after just 60 minutes.


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> So I just finished an owner update at WDW.  My strategy today was to go in playing dumb, I said I wasn't looking to buy anything but just wanted to learn about the new changes and how they would affect me.
> 
> My salesperson said I should have been contacted previously and gotten a Zoom presentation to share all the details with me and offer me a chance to enroll in the new program.  He was quite surprised when I told him I had not been contacted.  So then he went away to get the offers I apparently should have received.
> 
> His whole pitch was really oriented around getting me to turn my existing 81,000 EOY Westin Flex into EY (either keeping 81,000 EY or another option to take 69,000 EY) which is what would get me into the Marriott program and give me access to those resorts.  He was clear that I needed to buy something more if I wanted to have access to the Marriott properties, but that if I upgraded my Flex that would give me the trading power of my entire portfolio on the Marriott side.
> 
> He emphasized several times that the Marriott program was much more generous and that 81,000 Westin Flex would get me two weeks in almost any of the resorts, including Maui and here in Palm Desert, so it would be very advantageous for me to buy more and enroll in the Marriott program because I'd get much more usage time in the Marriott program.  And so many owners are opting for the new program that there's just not going to be much inventory left in the VSN.
> 
> I could go on and on, but basically I think it was all lies.  From what I think I know, I will be able to elect into the DP program year-by-year and I don't need to purchase anything to do so.  He also told me that I'd be Chairman's Club level in the Marriott program, which would allow me to book everything at 13 months which only 30% of their owners can do, so I'd have easy availability everywhere since I would have earlier access than 70% of owners.
> 
> It was all a big and complicated combination of half-truths and outright lies from both programs, and I was disappointed that I didn't really learn anything useful.  I was not provided any information on what my existing ownership would be worth in the DP program (because I apparently won't have access to that program unless I buy more!)
> 
> Oh, he also said that they were about two weeks away from switching to only selling Marriott DP points, and that they were about twice as expensive for the same usage, with higher MFs.  So buy now!
> 
> I was hoping to enhance my understanding but I don't think I was told anything of value.  After an hour he sent me out to the lobby to get my incentive and I was on my way.


I am certainly not surprised. Several times we have been told the "you should have been contacted and offered X" already. I am not sure why they think that is some type of legitimate sales tactic. Perhaps that since they are still offering whatever it was that you should have been offered already but weren't is more likely to make you buy?


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> I am certainly not surprised. Several times we have been told the "you should have been contacted and offered X" already. I am not sure why they think that is some type of legitimate sales tactic. Perhaps that since they are still offering whatever it was that you should have been offered already but weren't is more likely to make you buy?


He was trying to make it sound like they had these special offers that they were holding for me, lol.  Interestingly enough, the special offers were basically exactly the same as the offers I got at my last owner update last Fall.


----------



## TravelTime

ocdb8r said:


> Are you saying SVV Gold Plus (normally worth 81,000) will be worth 2,950 DPs?
> 
> Has anyone seen DPs for a true SDO Platinum?



Ask someone what they get for Orlando right now for gold season in the same size unit you own. They will probably assign the same or close. 81,000 SOs is low so do not expect much. I have 176K SOs in platinum season so I should get double what you get. I do not expect a whole lot for this. I only get 4500 DPs for a 2 BR platinum season at Marriott Ko Olina. It is less that it takes to trade back in using DPs. I enrolled my week bc I decided I wanted to be able to exchange using DPs at 13 months to go different places and pick the size unit and view I want. I am not into the luck of the draw with II.


----------



## TravelTime

daviator said:


> So I just finished an owner update at WDW.  My strategy today was to go in playing dumb, I said I wasn't looking to buy anything but just wanted to learn about the new changes and how they would affect me.
> 
> My salesperson said I should have been contacted previously and gotten a Zoom presentation to share all the details with me and offer me a chance to enroll in the new program.  He was quite surprised when I told him I had not been contacted.  So then he went away to get the offers I apparently should have received.
> 
> His whole pitch was really oriented around getting me to turn my existing 81,000 EOY Westin Flex into EY (either keeping 81,000 EY or another option to take 69,000 EY) which is what would get me into the Marriott program and give me access to those resorts.  He was clear that I needed to buy something more if I wanted to have access to the Marriott properties, but that if I upgraded my Flex that would give me the trading power of my entire portfolio on the Marriott side.
> 
> He emphasized several times that the Marriott program was much more generous and that 81,000 Westin Flex would get me two weeks in almost any of the resorts, including Maui and here in Palm Desert, so it would be very advantageous for me to buy more and enroll in the Marriott program because I'd get much more usage time in the Marriott program.  And so many owners are opting for the new program that there's just not going to be much inventory left in the VSN.
> 
> I could go on and on, but basically I think it was all lies.  From what I think I know, I will be able to elect into the DP program year-by-year and I don't need to purchase anything to do so.  He also told me that I'd be Chairman's Club level in the Marriott program, which would allow me to book everything at 13 months which only 30% of their owners can do, so I'd have easy availability everywhere since I would have earlier access than 70% of owners.
> 
> It was all a big and complicated combination of half-truths and outright lies from both programs, and I was disappointed that I didn't really learn anything useful.  I was not provided any information on what my existing ownership would be worth in the DP program (because I apparently won't have access to that program unless I buy more!)
> 
> Oh, he also said that they were about two weeks away from switching to only selling Marriott DP points, and that they were about twice as expensive for the same usage, with higher MFs.  So buy now!
> 
> I was hoping to enhance my understanding but I don't think I was told anything of value.  After an hour he sent me out to the lobby to get my incentive and I was on my way.



I am going to a MVC presentation today. I never play dumb because then the try to lie to me. They try anyway but when they realize I am on TUG and know quite a bit, they let me go. I am curious what they will tell me today. I will report back.


----------



## VacationForever

ocdb8r said:


> Are you saying SVV Gold Plus (normally worth 81,000) will be worth 2,950 DPs?
> 
> Has anyone seen DPs for a true SDO Platinum?


SVV 2BR LO Gold Plus season is worth 2575 DP per earlier post on page 28.


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> SVV 2BR LO Gold Plus season is worth 2575 DP per earlier post on page 28.


That seems somewhat in line with Marriott's Grande Vista. It gets 2,175 but is only a 1BR and a studio when locked off. The units at Grande Vista are nicer, but the ones at SVV are more like two 1BR units.


----------



## VacationForever

I think there was also an earlier post indicating that SDO Platinum 2BR gets 2600 DPs.  I think it correlates back to the original developer sale price.


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> That seems somewhat in line with Marriott's Grande Vista. It gets 2,175 but is only a 1BR and a studio when locked off. The units at Grande Vista are nicer, but the ones at SVV are more like two 1BR units.


I own a SVR 2Br LO (Lakes) which floats 1 to 52, with a fixed week which is in the high season.  I get 95,700 SOs which is the same as the weeks which float 1-52 and the fixed week being in the prime season.  Time will tell.


----------



## daviator

VacationForever said:


> I think there was also an earlier post indicating that SDO Platinum 2BR gets 2600 DPs.


Oh, adding another tidbit from today's owner update, he told me that my 81,000 Westin Flex EOY SOs (or maybe this was the 69,000 EY he was trying to get me to upgrade to) would get me 2,422 DPs, and that would get me two weeks (or nearly two weeks) at most of the Marriott resorts.  Of course, those 81,000 SOs will get me two weeks (or nearly two weeks) at many of the Vistana resorts too, if I can find availability at 8 months, so I didn’t really see this is a great improvement.  He was trying to sell me on how wonderful the MVC properties are, but I think they’re pretty much all inferior to the Westin-branded properties.

Thinking about it now, I'm not even sure the salesman knew what he was talking about.  There are so many missing pieces of information, he was just filling in all those gaps with made-up filler, most of which won’t be true.  It seems to be anathema to these salespeople to ever say “I don’t know yet.”


----------



## TravelTime

daviator said:


> Oh, adding another tidbit from today's owner update, he told me that my 81,000 Westin Flex EOY SOs (or maybe this was the 69,000 EY he was trying to get me to upgrade to) would get me 2,422 DPs, and that would get me two weeks (or nearly two weeks) at most of the Marriott resorts.  Of course, those 81,000 SOs will get me two weeks (or nearly two weeks) at many of the Vistana resorts too, if I can find availability at 8 months, so I didn’t really see this is a great improvement.  He was trying to sell me on how wonderful the MVC properties are, but I think they’re pretty much all inferior to the Westin-branded properties.
> 
> Thinking about it now, I'm not even sure the salesman knew what he was talking about.  There are so many missing pieces of information, he was just filling in all those gaps with made-up filler, most of which won’t be true.  It seems to be anathema to these salespeople to ever say “I don’t know yet.”



Are you getting 2 weeks in studios with 81,000 SOs? Also even in studios, wouldn’t that limit you to just a few Vistana resorts in low season? He is right if he is talking about 2 weeks in 1 BRs and studios at some of the MVC resorts. You could even get 3+ weeks at some MVC resorts in studios in low season. Look at Beach Club in Ft Lauderdale or Harbour Lake in Orlando or Desert Springs in CA. You could almost get 4 weeks.


----------



## Ken555

daviator said:


> He was trying to sell me on how wonderful the MVC properties are, but I think they’re pretty much all inferior to the Westin-branded properties.



^^THIS



> Thinking about it now, I'm not even sure the salesman knew what he was talking about.  There are so many missing pieces of information, he was just filling in all those gaps with made-up filler, most of which won’t be true.  It seems to be anathema to these salespeople to ever say “I don’t know yet.”



I wish I could say thanks for taking one for the team, but I'm not sure you learned anything that you didn't already know other than perhaps not to do it again.


----------



## daviator

TravelTime said:


> Are you getting 2 weeks in studios with 81,000 SOs? Also even in studios, wouldn’t that limit you to just a few Vistana resorts in low season? He is right if he is talking about 2 weeks in 1 BRs and studios at some of the MVC resorts. You could even get 3+ weeks at some MVC resorts in studios in low season. Look at Beach Club in Ft Lauderdale or Harbour Lake in Orlando or Desert Springs in CA. You could almost get 4 weeks.


I like coming to WDW in late October; it isn’t busy and the weather is usually great.  I have always been easily able to book with SOs at 8 months, and I can get 13 nights in the *premium* 1 BR side (the large side of the lockoff, not the small side) for 81,000 points. I wouldn’t be able to do that well in, say, January… but I never come at that time.

So that’s what I’m referring to when I say I can get nearly two weeks out of 81,000 SOs in the Vistana program already. I strongly doubt the Marriott program will be as generous. I guess time will tell, it does have a much more granular awards chart so I’m sure I could do so in the middle of July or something (no thanks.)


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> I like coming to WDW in late October; it isn’t busy and the weather is usually great.  I have always been easily able to book with SOs at 8 months, and I can get 13 nights in the *premium* 1 BR side (the large side of the lockoff, not the small side) for 81,000 points. I wouldn’t be able to do that well in, say, January… but I never come at that time.
> 
> So that’s what I’m referring to when I say I can get nearly two weeks out of 81,000 SOs in the Vistana program already. I strongly doubt the Marriott program will be as generous. I guess time will tell, it does have a much more granular awards chart so I’m sure I could do so in the middle of July or something (no thanks.)


The same holds true for Gold Plus at Lagunamar. We used our 81K SVV StarOptions to spend 13 nights in a 1BR at Lagunamar in May. Great use of points. Won't ever be able to get the same value using DC points.

We are apparently glutton for punishment. We spent July in Palm Desert and Scottsdale last year. We are doing the same this year. Those points go much further in off season.


----------



## VacationForever

Yep.  I normally book at WMH, WDW or WKV in Nov/Dec and book 13 nights in premium 1BR, although we sometimes book 2BR when we invite friends to join us, like end of this year.


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> The same holds true for Gold Plus at Lagunamar. We used our 81K SVV StarOptions to spend 13 nights in a 1BR at Lagunamar in May. Great use of points. Won't ever be able to get the same value using DC points.
> 
> We are apparently glutton for punishment. We spent July in Palm Desert and Scottsdale last year. We are doing the same this year. Those points go much further in off season.


If you can deal with the extreme heat, you can get so much for your money in the summer.  I get a little bored when it’s that hot, because it’s really too hot to be at the pool.  It is usually a dry heat, which helps, but man, is it hot.


----------



## CPNY

daviator said:


> If you can deal with the extreme heat, you can get so much for your money in the summer.  I get a little bored when it’s that hot, because it’s really too hot to be at the pool.  It is usually a dry heat, which helps, but man, is it hot.


The fall is a great time to be in Arizona as well. Every time I’ve gone to Arizona for work it’s always been in late September and it’s been amazing. Warm days by the pool and cool evenings. Fall is my favorite time to travel, it’s just unfortunate that i cannot travel as often as I’d like at that time because I have a side job officiating football. 



TravelTime said:


> Are you getting 2 weeks in studios with 81,000 SOs? Also even in studios, wouldn’t that limit you to just a few Vistana resorts in low season? He is right if he is talking about 2 weeks in 1 BRs and studios at some of the MVC resorts. You could even get 3+ weeks at some MVC resorts in studios in low season. Look at Beach Club in Ft Lauderdale or Harbour Lake in Orlando or Desert Springs in CA. You could almost get 4 weeks.


The studio side of a lockoff in Marriott is not as good as the small one bedroom in a vistana unit. Id rather 3 weeks in a small one bedroom in vistana than 4 weeks in a “hotel room with a microwave”.


----------



## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> We are apparently glutton for punishment. We spent July in Palm Desert and Scottsdale last year. We are doing the same this year. Those points go much further in off season.



You're not alone! I'll be in Scottsdale for at least two weeks this summer, and likely some time in Palm Desert as well. I bought a getaway week for $297+tax at SDO and likely will combine it with a week at WKV/WDW as well. It's hard for me to pass up ~$300 weeks.


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> You're not alone! I'll be in Scottsdale for at least two weeks this summer, and likely some time in Palm Desert as well. I bought a getaway week for $297+tax at SDO and likely will combine it with a week at WKV/WDW as well. It's hard for me to pass up ~$300 weeks.


Look at the bright side, you’ll dry off instantly when you get out of the pool and the room has AC! Sounds like a great time to me. Haha


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> The studio side of a lockoff in Marriott is not as good as the small one bedroom in a vistana unit. Id rather 3 weeks in a small one bedroom in vistana than 4 weeks in a “hotel room with a microwave”.



This is a big part of why I just smh when I read comments about how Marriott is better...


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> Look at the bright side, you’ll dry off instantly when you get out of the pool and the room has AC! Sounds like a great time to me. Haha



Many times when I visit Palm Desert in the summer my home is also in the midst of a relative heat wave, so it's not always all that much hotter. Last summer it was ~10F hotter, which is noticeable, but another reason why I don't mind going then...at least I don't have to pay for the a/c at home that week.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> The studio side of a lockoff in Marriott is not as good as the small one bedroom in a vistana unit. Id rather 3 weeks in a small one bedroom in vistana than 4 weeks in a “hotel room with a microwave”.


Even though we own two Marriott lockoff weeks, we rarely ever stay in a studio. We've done it with getaways now and then but for our weeks we always deposit and that studio is always exchanged up to a 1BR or larger. Just exchanged one of our studios today for a 2BR Lakeshore Reserve. We have the benefit of enrolled weeks so we can trade for "free". But one never should have to stay in a studio. Those are there for the people that wait too long to exchange and that is all that is left. Or Marriott rents them on Marriott.com to people that don't know the difference.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> The fall is a great time to be in Arizona as well. Every time I’ve gone to Arizona for work it’s always been in late September and it’s been amazing. Warm days by the pool and cool evenings. Fall is my favorite time to travel, it’s just unfortunate that i cannot travel as often as I’d like at that time because I have a side job officiating football.
> 
> 
> The studio side of a lockoff in Marriott is not as good as the small one bedroom in a vistana unit. Id rather 3 weeks in a small one bedroom in vistana than 4 weeks in a “hotel room with a microwave”.



How many SOs for the small 1 BR, where and what season? With 81,000 SOs, could you get the small 1 BR anywhere in any season for 27,000 SOs per week?


----------



## Ken555

daviator said:


> So that’s what I’m referring to when I say I can get nearly two weeks out of 81,000 SOs in the Vistana program already. I strongly doubt the Marriott program will be as generous. I guess time will tell, it does have a much more granular awards chart so I’m sure I could do so in the middle of July or something (no thanks.)



FWIW, it's not uncommon for me to redeem 19-26 nights in exchange for 148,100 SOs, and that typically includes ~9-11 nights in Hawaii (in a studio, usually). A few examples:

2010: 24 nights; 7 nights Harborside (Premium 1-bed), 7 nights WDW (Premium 1-bed), and 10 nights WKV (Premium 1-bed)
2011: 19 nights; 9 nights WKORV-N (Premium 1-bed), 10 nights Oct/Dec at WDW/WMH (1-bed)
2016: 21 nights; 15 nights WKORV (studio over two trips) and 6 nights WDW (1-bed)
2017: 22 nights; 13 nights WKORV-N (studio) and 9 nights WDW (1-bed)
2018: 26 nights; 11 nights WKORV-N (studio) and 15 nights WDW (1-bed)
2019: 25 nights; 11 nights Kauai (studios) and 14 nights WDW (1-bed)

Sure, most of the WDW redemption is in the summer...but it still counts and it works for me. I like this flexibility; I could use it all in a week for a 2-bed in Hawaii or spread it out like this...it's my choice. This, combined with the quality and reliability of the resorts, is why I still own it. Hopefully this type of redemption options will continue to exist in the future.


----------



## TravelTime

Just got back from a Marriott presentation. They are giving a little over 8300 DPs for a 2BR at WKOVRN. I was rather shocked at how many points they are awarding for Maui. However, to enroll my week, he said I need to buy 1000 DPs at $15 pp. That did not interest me right now. I am still hoping that once MVC does its hard roll out that they will grandfather in some of us Vistana resale owners and allow us to pay an enrollment fee instead of buying a bunch of expensive points.

BTW, there is a poster in the lobby stating that the integration is happening now. They have laminated cards showing all the MVC and Vistana locations combined.

Westin Princeville is getting a lot fewer points than Maui. I know Vistana people do not want to hear this but Maui is one of the hardest if not the hardest resort to book using DPs. So it makes sense MVC would value it higher. All the other Hawaii resorts are fairly easy to book using DPs. With Maui, you need to be online right when the booking window opens and the inventory is gone within minutes.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> How many SOs for the small 1 BR, where and what season? With 81,000 SOs, could you get the small 1 BR anywhere in any season for 27,000 SOs per week?


2 weeks in a Vistana lockoff is better than 4 weeks in a Marriott studio. Personally, if I didn’t care about my accommodations, I’d stay in a motel 6. But since I’m a high maintenance. I need a washer dryer and an electric range to cook a meal.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> How many SOs for the small 1 BR, where and what season? With 81,000 SOs, could you get the small 1 BR anywhere in any season for 27,000 SOs per week?



You should take a few minutes and review the SO chart. The short answer is yes... a few examples:

WMH/WDW/SDO/WKV 1-bed: 25,800 SOs; Premium 1-bed: 30,500
SBP/PGA/SSRV/WRMV/SMV as low as 25,800


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I know Vistana people do not want to hear this but Maui is one of the hardest if not the hardest resort to book using DPs. So it makes sense MVC would value it higher. All the other Hawaii resorts are fairly easy to book using DPs. With Maui, you need to be online right when the booking window opens and the inventory is gone within minutes.



I guess this doesn’t mean anything to me since after all of these years, I’m finally going to Maui in Feb. I can’t see myself going back all that often simply because of the distance from NY. If I lived in the west coast it would be different. With that being said, I’m going on an interval exchange. Small SVV 1 bedroom into a 2 bedroom at the Westin Nanea. 

My interests are in the Caribbean or Florida.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> I guess this doesn’t mean anything to me since after all of these years, I’m finally going to Maui in Feb. I can’t see myself going back all that often simply because of the distance from NY. If I lived in the west coast it would be different. With that being said, I’m going on an interval exchange. Small SVV 1 bedroom into a 2 bedroom at the Westin Nanea.
> 
> My interests are in the Caribbean or Florida.



I am not referring to anyone’s personal interests. I know you could care less. I am just sharing what I learned and how MVC is valuing Maui.


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> I guess this doesn’t mean anything to me since after all of these years, I’m finally going to Maui in Feb. I can’t see myself going back all that often simply because of the distance from NY. If I lived in the west coast it would be different. With that being said, I’m going on an interval exchange. Small SVV 1 bedroom into a 2 bedroom at the Westin Nanea.
> 
> My interests are in the Caribbean or Florida.



I've done this a bunch of times to Hawaii. Years ago when I went to "owners updates" I would be told I couldn't exchange into Hawaii and I would just laugh. The sales weasels need to reinforce the notion that the only way to get Hawaii is to buy there or have the best points...and we know that's just not true. Now the smart ones will say that sometimes, if you're lucky, if the moon is in alignment, you might get a studio. They have to sell their product with fear - fear that you can't get their premium locations without spending gobs of money. 

In the distant past, I've even obtained multiple Harborside weeks via II.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> Just got back from a Marriott presentation. They are giving a little over 8300 DPs for a 2BR at WKOVRN. I was rather shocked at how many points they are awarding for Maui. However, to enroll my week, he said I need to buy 1000 DPs at $15 pp. That did not interest me right now. I am still hoping that once MVC does its hard roll out that they will grandfather in some of us Vistana resale owners and allow us to pay an enrollment fee instead of buying a bunch of expensive points.
> 
> BTW, there is a poster in the lobby stating that the integration is happening now. They have laminated cards showing all the MVC and Vistana locations combined.
> 
> Westin Princeville is getting a lot fewer points than Maui. I know Vistana people do not want to hear this but Maui is one of the hardest if not the hardest resort to book using DPs. So it makes sense MVC would value it higher. All the other Hawaii resorts are fairly easy to book using DPs. With Maui, you need to be online right when the booking window opens and the inventory is gone within minutes.


I am still not convinced there is currently the ability to retro an unqualified Vistana week by purchasing DC points.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I am still not convinced there is currently the ability to retro an unqualified Vistana week by purchasing DC points.


I wouldn’t be surprised if the Marriott liars talk to the vistana (Marriott) liars and then lie and tell you it’s done but it’s not.


----------



## MICROZE

CPNY said:


> So let me guess this right. You purchased your WOY Westin flex from vistana but you have to buy another point contract in order for that contract to be enrolled? The lies are pathetic.
> 
> So wait, their pitch is, the Marriott program is more generous so buy into this not so generous program for an absurd about of money so you can use the more generous program one day? These sales reps need to be fired, Marriott sales is the worst.


This is exactly what we were told by the Marriott people at the last 2 presentations.
100% of our VSN are either Direct-Purchase or Enrolled and we were told that every VSN-Owner would have to purchase something to be eligible to enroll within the DCP-System.

Since we purchased a Hybrid [Week + Points in OCT-2021] we were informed that the Oct purchase was good enough and would meet the requirement to enroll our VSN.
This was repeated last week at our Grand Chateau presentation.

*Justification*: Marriott purchased [not merged] and thus being able to exchange within DCP was an added benefit for which VSN-Owners would have to pay. When I informed them that I had already paid VSN, they informed me that what I paid VSN was for access to ~20 VSN-Resorts. To Access 90+ resorts was an added benefit which Marriott was unlikely to provide for free.


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> I am still not convinced there is currently the ability to retro an unqualified Vistana week by purchasing DC points.


Ditto.


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> I've done this a bunch of times to Hawaii. Years ago when I went to "owners updates" I would be told I couldn't exchange into Hawaii and I would just laugh. The sales weasels need to reinforce the notion that the only way to get Hawaii is to buy there or have the best points...and we know that's just not true. Now the smart ones will say that sometimes, if you're lucky, if the moon is in alignment, you might get a studio. They have to sell their product with fear - fear that you can't get their premium locations without spending gobs of money.
> 
> In the distant past, I've even obtained multiple Harborside weeks via II.


Ifs unreal how they’ve told all of the Marriott weeks owners that there would be nothing in interval for them to book so buy DC points now!!! Look at how that turned out. Now they are saying the VSN will dry up. It may but it may not. I’m not falling for the scare tactics. I will continue to use my ownerships the way I have been until I can no longer. 

We can all agree that most owners are clueless on the various ways to use their ownerships. Those people won’t be buying more when they don’t even use what they have. The ones that do buy more because they are “sold” to, I say great! Help out the parent company. It’s still probably a small percentage of owners. The economy is Another thing we all have to consider. If prices continue to rise the way they are across the board, people will be less likely to drop cash. They may even offer great deals. When that happens I know I’ll be ready with fistfuls of cash ready to retro my mandatory resales haha.


----------



## CPNY

MICROZE said:


> This is exactly what we were told by the Marriott people at the last 2 presentations.
> This was repeated last week at our Grand Chateau presentation.
> 
> *Justification*: Marriott purchased [not merged] and thus being able to exchange within DCP was an added benefit for which VSN-Owners would have to pay. When I informed them that I had already paid VSN, they informed me that what I paid VSN was for access to ~20 VSN-Resorts. To Access 90+ resorts was an added benefit which Marriott was unlikely to provide for free.



Something tells me that there is a really big group text chat filled with all Marriott sales reps that work at every resort and they just share lies to spin out so it’s consistent. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if they got that justification from right here on TUG in the Marriott forum. Go back to 2019 and read the threads up until today, most MVC “people” believe that to be true. They believe that they should have access to vistana properties but vistana owners should only have access to Marriott IF and only if they buy DC points. Talk about privileged.


----------



## SDKath

Joining the 58 page thread now... a little late I am sure .  Would someone possibly be willing to take a moment to summarize maybe 3-4 key points that seem consistent and likely to happen with the integration?  Is that even possible?  LOL.  I would so appreciate any reader's digest version of it all. At least from the Westin side since I don't own Marriott.


----------



## DanCali

CPNY said:


> The studio side of a lockoff in Marriott is not as good as the small one bedroom in a vistana unit. Id rather 3 weeks in a small one bedroom in vistana than 4 weeks in a “hotel room with a microwave”.




It's also a lot worse than the studios at Vistana...


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## dioxide45

SDKath said:


> Joining the 58 page thread now... a little late I am sure .  Would someone possibly be willing to take a moment to summarize maybe 3-4 key points that seem consistent and likely to happen with the integration?  Is that even possible?  LOL.  I would so appreciate any reader's digest version of it all. At least from the Westin side since I don't own Marriott.


No way! You have to go through the same pain we all have over these past four year. GET READING!


----------



## CPNY

SDKath said:


> Joining the 58 page thread now... a little late I am sure .  Would someone possibly be willing to take a moment to summarize maybe 3-4 key points that seem consistent and likely to happen with the integration?  Is that even possible?  LOL.  I would so appreciate any reader's digest version of it all. At least from the Westin side since I don't own Marriott.


What we think we know so far
Conversion is an annual election only, it’s not permanent. (Vistana owners really win here)
You can convert to DC points if you purchased directly from Vistana or made a purchase to enroll a resale
You can convert only your whole ownership, if you own a two bedroom you have to convert the whole two bedroom
You’ll pay a new VSN fee called a club fee which will remove other fees like banking, interval internal exchange fees, etc
Depending on how many DC points your VSN ownerships convert to will determine your Marriott vacation club status 
Resale units not enrolled cannot convert (unofficially)
If you do nothing you’ll get to use your ownership as you do today which includes star options usage in the VSN.

Sales lies: none of the above is true unless you buy another ownership TODAY!


----------



## Ken555

SDKath said:


> Joining the 58 page thread now... a little late I am sure .  Would someone possibly be willing to take a moment to summarize maybe 3-4 key points that seem consistent and likely to happen with the integration?  Is that even possible?  LOL.  I would so appreciate any reader's digest version of it all. At least from the Westin side since I don't own Marriott.



It was a three hour voyage...

Short version:
Marriott DP = $$$; DP = ability to stay at lots of resorts; Marriott = Happy


----------



## Ken555

MICROZE said:


> This is exactly what we were told by the Marriott people at the last 2 presentations.
> 100% of our VSN are either Direct-Purchase or Enrolled and we were told that every VSN-Owner would have to purchase something to be eligible to enroll within the DCP-System.
> 
> Since we purchased a Hybrid [Week + Points in OCT-2021] we were informed that the Oct purchase was good enough and would meet the requirement to enroll our VSN.
> This was repeated last week at our Grand Chateau presentation.
> 
> *Justification*: Marriott purchased [not merged] and thus being able to exchange within DCP was an added benefit for which VSN-Owners would have to pay. When I informed them that I had already paid VSN, they informed me that what I paid VSN was for access to ~20 VSN-Resorts. To Access 90+ resorts was an added benefit which Marriott was unlikely to provide for free.



The interesting aspect of this is that Marriott knows exactly how many of their existing owners are already Vistana owners (and vice versa) and how many already have both. They really don't want to alienate their established base since that's where they will earn future sales from more easily than new prospects. With that said, I find it difficult to believe they will require significant investments for Vistana owners to trade into Marriott (and the opposite). I think it a greater likelihood that the spin you heard was *FOR YOU* based on your existing ownership, and that others will hear a completely different story.


----------



## DanCali

SDKath said:


> Joining the 58 page thread now... a little late I am sure .  Would someone possibly be willing to take a moment to summarize maybe 3-4 key points that seem consistent and likely to happen with the integration?  Is that even possible?  LOL.  I would so appreciate any reader's digest version of it all. At least from the Westin side since I don't own Marriott.



- (some) Vistana owners will have access to the Destinations Club (points system) with Marriott Vacation Club
- Unclear yet who will get access - could be (i) developer purchases and retros or (ii) also mandatory resales
- Whoever doesn't get access will need to buy points from Marriott to have access
- VSN will continue as is, but inventory availability may change over time
- The additional option will allow those who have access to exchange to points
- WKORV and WKORVN (Nanea probably too) get seemingly generous points in exchange for electing to deposit in the DC. Others less so, but it's all relative.
- The annual VSN fee will be consolidated with the Marriott annual fee
- Some fees (e.g., banking) may go away


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> Westin Princeville is getting a lot fewer points than Maui. I know Vistana people do not want to hear this but Maui is one of the hardest if not the hardest resort to book using DPs. So it makes sense MVC would value it higher. All the other Hawaii resorts are fairly easy to book using DPs. With Maui, you need to be online right when the booking window opens and the inventory is gone within minutes.



This high demand is the reason I still think MVC will need to provide some sort of incentives or make it easy for Westin Maui owners to put our inventory into the DP system (free would be fair for mandatory weeks ). Right now MVC wants the inventory, but they want us to pay to give them that inventory.   

Logically, it should be the other way around, but then timeshare developer economics never makes much sense.


----------



## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> Logically, it should be the other way around, but then timeshare developer economics never makes much sense.


It makes sense to them… it’s a racket that’s for sure


----------



## DanCali

jabberwocky said:


> This high demand is the reason I still think MVC will need to provide some sort of incentives or make it easy for Westin Maui owners to put our inventory into the DP system (free would be fair for mandatory weeks ). Right now MVC wants the inventory, but they want us to pay to give them that inventory.
> 
> Logically, it should be the other way around, but then timeshare developer economics never makes much sense.




I doubt they care much about inventory in the DC at this point. Do they make more money if there are more Maui units traded in? Maybe some from "skim" but it's peanuts compared to a $30K-$50K points sale where they buy points for $2-$3 at ROFR and sell for $12-$15. Then they also get your inventory.

The DC exchange has been up and running for 12 years and has a high volume of exchanges already. They are playing the long game - they are now getting tens of thousands of new owners who they can try to sell a new shiny object... "You want access to 60+ high-end resorts? Just buy X thousand points and you're in! We love Vistana weeks, and your week will get you 20+ days elsewhere"

Their system seems to work well. Just look at what VAC stock has done since the spinoff in late 2011... I own multiple Marriott weeks, but haven't purchased any from them. I also haven't purchased any points from them. I like the system, but I don't think the economics are in my favor with their pricing relative to what I get with what I'd be buying (Vistana pricing was a bargain compared to MVC, IMO). But plenty of others are buying from them for their own reasons, so I just buy the stock and plan to hold it long term  (this is not meant to be financial advice or an endorsement to purchase risky securities in any way*).

I'd be very interested to hear their earnings call Q&A on May 5!



* The value of shares and investments and the income derived from them can go down as well as up; Investors in stocks may not get back the amount they invested - losing money is a real risk; Past performance is not a guide to future performance.


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## daviator

After my owner update today and all the discussion, I’m more convinced than ever that all of this is meaningless until it’s in writing and they’ll put it on their website.  

The stories that Sales are telling owners are quite different than what Denise's in-the-know contact told us.  Who to believe?  Well, I’d believe Denise's friend over a bunch of random timeshare sales people, but to be honest, I don’t believe any of them until I see it in writing.

Some owners have apparently been told “this is how many DPs your ownership is going to be worth.”  I was told “your ownership is worth nothing unless you buy more Westin a flex.”  The latter is almost certainly a lie, but maybe the former is a lie too. I just don’t think we know yet. Maybe we will know next month. Or maybe in June.


----------



## jabberwocky

DanCali said:


> They don't really care about inventory in the DC at this point. Do they make more money if there are more Maui units traded in? Maybe some from "skim" but it's peanuts compared to a $30K points sale where they buy points for $2-$3 at ROFR and sell for $12-$15. Then they also get your inventory.
> 
> The DC exchange has been up and running for 12 years and has a high volume of exchanges already. They are playing the long game - they are now getting tens of thousands of new owners who they can try to sell a new shiny object... "You want access to 60+ high-end resorts? Just buy X thousand points and you're in! We love Vistana weeks, and your week will get you 20+ days elsewhere"
> 
> Their system seems to work well. Just look at what VAC stock has done since the spinoff in late 2011... I own multiple Marriott weeks, but haven't purchased any from them. I haven't purchased any points from them. I don't think the economics are in my favor with their pricing (Vistana pricing was a bargain compared to MVC, IMO). But plenty of others are buying from them for their own reasons, so I just buy the stock and plan to hold it long term  (this is not meant to be financial advice or an endorsement to purchase risky securities in any way*).
> 
> I'd be very interested to hear their earnings call Q&A on May 5!
> 
> 
> 
> * The value of shares and investments and the income derived from them can go down as well as up; Investors in stocks may not get back the amount they invested - losing money is a real risk; Past performance is not a guide to future performance.


I completely agree with you that VAC is a much better purchase than DP points. I predict VAC  will do very well in selling this to existing Vistana owners. IMO, selling the points is the short game. The real long game would be creating a great system that has value for both the TS owners and VAC, rather than trying to milk $20-30k out of owners to buy something they already have.  

Regardless, like you I’ve owned VAC for some time and bought more back in early 2020 when things looked dire*. Plus, as long as the 125-strike put options I’ve written stay out-of-the-money until July I’ll have my MF covered for the next two years at least.

*I don’t think we need to worry about warning people about risky investments that may go to zero. This site is populated by timeshare owners, after all!


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> After my owner update today and all the discussion, I’m more convinced than ever that all of this is meaningless until it’s in writing and they’ll put it on their website.
> 
> The stories that Sales are telling owners are quite different than what Denise's in-the-know contact told us.  Who to believe?  Well, I’d believe Denise's friend over a bunch of random timeshare sales people, but to be honest, I don’t believe any of them until I see it in writing.
> 
> Some owners have apparently been told “this is how many DPs your ownership is going to be worth.”  I was told “your ownership is worth nothing unless you buy more Westin a flex.”  The latter is almost certainly a lie, but maybe the former is a lie too. I just don’t think we know yet. Maybe we will know next month. Or maybe in June.


If they invite us to a presentation in May, when the ask me if I have any questions I am going to say "can I watch the training videos that were provided to you to learn about the new program?"


----------



## MICROZE

dioxide45 said:


> If they invite us to a presentation in May, when the ask me if I have any questions I am going to say "can I watch the training videos that were provided to you to learn about the new program?"


I saw the entire training video along with my sales rep last week at Grand Chateau and posted my comments earlier. *#1320*
He politely clicked through the sections and waited until I read each slide.

We even read an email [line-by-line] about the reopening of Retro for Marriott-Resales as of APR-14-2022.

*Previous-Presentation [OCT-2021]*
At another presentation done by a rep [Jeremey from Newport Coast] we have known for many years and trust,

The new DCP-System is in-place but launch is delayed due to COVID.
Marriott will require purchase of DCP to enroll our VSN [irrespective of Direct/Retro/Resale]. Any direct purchases over the last few months [not sure how far back] will qualify.
Marriott will require the payment of an Enrollment-Fee in addition to DCP-Purchase. Possibly waive this as an incentive of the DCP-Purchase.
Marriott will launch a new level above Chairmans. Name not yet decided. Points difference will likely not be more than 5K more than current Chairmans.
Enrolled VSN owners 3*/4*/5* will map to MVCI-Executive/Presidents/Chairmans.
Enrolled VSN owners 5* will map to Bonvoy-Titanium. Did not discuss 3*/4*.
There will be a combined Club-Dues. No details about what the fees would be or benefits.
Enrolled VSN owners will enjoy the same II benefits as Marriott owners.
There will be a points mapping for each VSN-Week. Did not share what those charts would be. Most likely didn't exist at the time.


----------



## CPNY

MICROZE said:


> I saw the entire training video along with my sales rep last week at Grand Chateau and posted my comments earlier. *#1320*
> He politely clicked through the sections and waited until I read each slide.
> 
> We even read an email [line-by-line] about the reopening of Retro for Marriott-Resales as of APR-14-2022.


This thread should have ended at post 1320! You have more knowledge than the sales reps lol. It sounds like they trained the sales reps to come up with their own interpretations so they can spew lies to make additional sales


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> This thread should have ended at post 1320! You have more knowledge than the sales reps lol. It sounds like they trained the sales reps to come up with their own interpretations so they can spew lies to make additional sales



Huh? There was a time the sales weasels didn’t lie?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> Huh? There was a time the sales weasels didn’t lie?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Of course! Before timeshares existed lol


----------



## wtrjock

MICROZE said:


> I saw the entire training video along with my sales rep last week at Grand Chateau and posted my comments earlier. *#1320*
> He politely clicked through the sections and waited until I read each slide.
> 
> We even read an email [line-by-line] about the reopening of Retro for Marriott-Resales as of APR-14-2022.
> 
> *Previous-Presentation [OCT-2021]*
> At another presentation done by a rep [Jeremey from Newport Coast] we have known for many years and trust,
> 
> The new DCP-System is in-place but launch is delayed due to COVID.
> Marriott will require purchase of DCP to enroll our VSN [irrespective of Direct/Retro/Resale]. Any direct purchases over the last few months [not sure how far back] will qualify.
> Marriott will require the payment of an Enrollment-Fee in addition to DCP-Purchase. Possibly waive this as an incentive of the DCP-Purchase.
> Marriott will launch a new level above Chairmans. Name not yet decided. Points difference will likely not be more than 5K more than current Chairmans.
> Enrolled VSN owners 3*/4*/5* will map to MVCI-Executive/Presidents/Chairmans.
> Enrolled VSN owners 5* will map to Bonvoy-Titanium. Did not discuss 3*/4*.
> There will be a combined Club-Dues. No details about what the fees would be or benefits.
> Enrolled VSN owners will enjoy the same II benefits as Marriott owners.
> There will be a points mapping for each VSN-Week. Did not share what those charts would be. Most likely didn't exist at the time.


What you said in your post is the same as what we heard at WKV last week from a Marriott closer and a Vistana salesman. I agree with you. I will include a picture of the coming soon chart.

I have the Daily Tour profile for what we own from the presentation. We had 2 SVVKW 2br resales for 81k SO. Those translate to 2725 DC each if we trade them into MVC. We have a WKORV south 1br EOY for 81k SO that translates into 1988 DC/yr or 3975 Election Value EOY. Our annual election shows 7438 because we bought 44k WF SO for $15k. There will be a little more DC for the 44k WF, but I'm not sure how much; around 2k DC. 

What we got from the $15k purchase:
*Retro our 2 SVV 81k SO Resales into the system
*88k WF SO to use after 45day that expire at 2yrs
*Locked in if we want to purchase more WF SO at $0.411/SO for 2yr
*6 certs to buy 330000 bonvoy for $2275 within 2yrs
*15mo same as cash on Bonvoy Brilliant Card
*$300 credit on Bonvoy Brilliant Card
*195k Bonvoy Point due to purchase on new Bonvoy Brilliant Card
*MF on 44k SO are $956 and start 2024
*Bonvoy Platinum for life of ownership 
*VSN 3* Elite until the merge happens, then MVC Executive Level

We are beyond the recind period and are good with what we purchased. I mostly want to give information that other can use to help make good decisions.


----------



## MICROZE

wtrjock said:


> What you said in your post is the same as what we heard at WKV last week from a Marriott closer and a Vistana salesman. I agree with you. I will include a picture of the coming soon chart.
> 
> I have the Daily Tour profile for what we own from the presentation. We had 2 SVVKW 2br resales for 81k SO. Those translate to 2725 DC each if we trade them into MVC. We have a WKORV south 1br EOY for 81k SO that translates into 1988 DC/yr or 3975 Election Value EOY. Our annual election shows 7438 because we bought 44k WF SO for $15k. There will be a little more DC for the 44k WF, but I'm not sure how much; around 2k DC.
> 
> What we got from the $15k purchase:
> *Retro our 2 SVV 81k SO Resales into the system
> *88k WF SO to use after 45day that expire at 2yrs
> *Locked in if we want to purchase more WF SO at $0.411/SO for 2yr
> *6 certs to buy 330000 bonvoy for $2275 within 2yrs
> *15mo same as cash on Bonvoy Brilliant Card
> *$300 credit on Bonvoy Brilliant Card
> *195k Bonvoy Point due to purchase on new Bonvoy Brilliant Card
> *MF on 44k SO are $956 and start 2024
> *Bonvoy Platinum for life of ownership
> *VSN 3* Elite until the merge happens, then MVC Executive Level
> 
> We are beyond the recind period and are good with what we purchased. I mostly want to give information that other can use to help make good decisions.


Your details match our VSN-Package.

We retro'd 3 x 2BR-WKV-EY PLAT+ [148.1K x 3] for ~$20K Aventuras-Flex [51700-SO-EY] + Closing $895. Maintenance-Fees: $788/Year
Incentive: 175K-Bonvoy [Purchase-Bonus] + 30K-Bonvoy [Presentation-Bonus] + 130K-Bonvoy [Credit-Card-Charges]
Option to purchase 6 x 330K-Bonvoy Certs for $2275/Each
Since our First-Use-Year is 2025, we have until DEC-2025 to avail of the 330K-Certs

We were already 5* Elite so no change
We already had the Bonvoy-Brilliant-Card so no added benefit
This gets us to 1.3M-SO/Year [1M-WKV + 222K-WLR + 100K-WAC] + 20K-DCP/Year.
We are not fans of any of the Flex-Programs but did it to have 100% of our portfolio enrolled as we don't see a cheaper option with Marriott going forward.

*QUESTION*
If I had a choice at a re-do I would have purchased a WKV-Deeded-Week as opposed to any Flex.
Since you purchased at Kierland, were you offered WKV as an alternative to purchasing Flex?


----------



## SDKath

Wealth of info well digested into a 5 min read!  Thank you!


----------



## wtrjock

MICROZE said:


> Your details match our VSN-Package.
> 
> We retro'd 3 x 2BR-WKV-EY PLAT+ [148.1K x 3] for ~$20K Aventuras-Flex [51700-SO-EY] + Closing $895. Maintenance-Fees: $788/Year
> Incentive: 175K-Bonvoy [Purchase-Bonus] + 30K-Bonvoy [Presentation-Bonus] + 130K-Bonvoy [Credit-Card-Charges]
> Option to purchase 6 x 330K-Bonvoy Certs for $2275/Each
> Since our First-Use-Year is 2025, we have until DEC-2025 to avail of the 330K-Certs
> 
> We were already 5* Elite so no change
> We already had the Bonvoy-Brilliant-Card so no added benefit
> This gets us to 1.3M-SO/Year [1M-WKV + 222K-WLR + 100K-WAC] + 20K-DCP/Year.
> We are not fans of any of the Flex-Programs but did it to have 100% of our portfolio enrolled as we don't see a cheaper option with Marriott going forward.
> 
> *QUESTION*
> If I had a choice at a re-do I would have purchased a WKV-Deeded-Week as opposed to any Flex?
> Since you purchased at Kierland, were you offered WKV as an alternative to purchasing Flex?


Unfortunately they didn't have any WKV deeded weeks to offer.


----------



## dioxide45

MICROZE said:


> I saw the entire training video along with my sales rep last week at Grand Chateau and posted my comments earlier. *#1320*


I got the impression from the response by Denise's contact that there was more than one video. Perhaps different training was provided to Vistana sales reps vs. Marriott sales reps?


----------



## MICROZE

dioxide45 said:


> I got the impression from the response by Denise's contact that there was more than one video. Perhaps different training was provided to Vistana sales reps vs. Marriott sales reps?


This was a Training that the Marriott sales rep had to view and digitally attest to completing. There could have been more Trainings.
It is very possible that the Vistana sales reps had different training.

I noticed the Marriott sales rep did not have any printed charts [VSN-Resorts Points-Values] like what I saw here from others who attended Vistana presentations.


----------



## Mulege

Lagunamar sales staff had 1 day of training to be introduced to the changes.


----------



## remowidget

TravelTime said:


> Just got back from a Marriott presentation. They are giving a little over 8300 DPs for a 2BR at WKOVRN. I was rather shocked at how many points they are awarding for Maui. However, to enroll my week, he said I need to buy 1000 DPs at $15 pp.


So, $15k purchase instead of around $10k to recertify. Somehow, I though it would be more.


----------



## MICROZE

remowidget said:


> So, $15k purchase instead of around $10k to recertify. Somehow, I though it would be more.


This is an interesting offer, different from what I have seen from either Vistana or Marriott.

*Vistana [Qualify VSN-Resales]*

$10K = Retro 1-Contract followed by an additional $5K for each additional contract.
*Marriott [Qualify Marriott-Resales]*

2500-DCP = Retro 1-Contract [~$35K After Discounts]
3500-DCP = Retro 2-Contracts [~$50K After Discounts]
5000-DCP = Retro 3-7-Contracts [~$64K After Discounts]
Haven't yet seen any X-Over Offers where:

Marriott offers to retro VSN Resale-Contracts
VSN offers to retro Marriott Resale-Contracts


----------



## TravelTime

So does it sound like a good deal to pay $15K for 1000 DPs to register my Vistana EOY worth 8300+ DPs (about 4200 a year)?


----------



## Eric B

At $.70 per point, you could just rent over 21,000 points for $15K without increasing your MFs.  That’s 5 years worth.


----------



## TravelTime

Eric B said:


> At $.70 per point, you could just rent over 21,000 points for $15K without increasing your MFs.  That’s 5 years worth.



Good point. It is much better to rent points than pay $15,000 to get 1000 DPs plus register my Vistana week. I have never rented points but it could be worth it. I guess for me the deal breaker was I do not necessarily want to travel more time with Marriott every year. I like doing different things outside of timeshares.


----------



## remowidget

Eric B said:


> At $.70 per point, you could just rent over 21,000 points for $15K without increasing your MFs.  That’s 5 years worth.


If you can rent at the same price, why would anyone purchase more?


----------



## DanCali

remowidget said:


> If you can rent at the same price, why would anyone purchase more?



For an informed buyer, the only reason to buy developer points would be to enroll resale weeks as part of the deal. Or, some deals include points + buying another week (enrolled) as part of the deal and if people use that new week purely as points, the cost/point and MF/point go down.

Resale points are obviously a lot cheaper (but the $3 "junk fee" is still painful), so the math changes there. Some people may buy those in order to get to the next Elite level or avoid the hassle of having to rent.

Also, points you own more flexible than points you rent because they can be banked or rented out (the rule is you can only "move" points once so, once you rent from someone, you have to use them or lose them. No banking or renting again)

That said, I do have enrolled weeks and converted to points only a couple of times. Once was to exchange to Kauai (got 5 nights for my 2BR NCV week). And once was to see if I can rent my points out for more than the week itself. Otherwise, I just rent points from others when I need to, and if I lose some at the end of the year I'm ok with that.


----------



## MICROZE

TravelTime said:


> So does it sound like a good deal to pay $15K for 1000 DPs to register my Vistana EOY worth 8300+ DPs (about 4200 a year)?


Not so good.

Now that you mentioned *EOY*, it's too expensive.
That extrapolates to $30K for 1 x EY-Contract which matches what Marriott is offering which is 3X more expensive compared to what Vistana is offering [$10K for 1-Contract].

If it's a mandatory contract the benefit is minimal as you already have access to VSN. The only thing of value is improved Elite-Status which depends on the benefits you can avail of.
If its for exchanging between MVCI & VSN it could be useful if you plan to avail of X-Exchanges. If not, then its not a good idea.
I plan to stick with VSN for my VSN-Contracts and wit Marriott for my MVCI contracts.


----------



## remowidget

DanCali said:


> Otherwise, I just rent points from others when I need to, and if I lose some at the end of the year I'm ok with that.



Are people renting their points for less than what they cost for maintenance?  I thought I read you can rent from Marriott for the price of maintenance.


----------



## VacationForever

remowidget said:


> Are people renting their points for less than what they cost for maintenance?  I thought I read you can rent from Marriott for the price of maintenance.



Fire sale are usually for expiring non-banked points.  Most owners rent for a little over MF.   You cannot rent from Marriott.


----------



## TravelTime

MICROZE said:


> Not so good.
> 
> Now that you mentioned *EOY*, it's too expensive.
> That extrapolates to $30K for 1 x EY-Contract which matches what Marriott is offering which is 3X more expensive compared to what Vistana is offering [$10K for 1-Contract].
> 
> If it's a mandatory contract the benefit is minimal as you already have access to VSN. The only thing of value is improved Elite-Status which depends on the benefits you can avail of.
> If its for exchanging between MVCI & VSN it could be useful if you plan to avail of X-Exchanges. If not, then its not a good idea.
> I plan to stick with VSN for my VSN-Contracts and wit Marriott for my MVCI contracts.



I agree. I paid $12,500 plus closing costs for the week so about $14K, then they want another $15K to register. I could have purchased an annual contract in Maui for less than that. Sort of ridiculous, really.


----------



## DanCali

remowidget said:


> Are people renting their points for less than what they cost for maintenance?  I thought I read you can rent from Marriott for the price of maintenance.




You rent from other owners.

The reason you can rent for slightly above maintenance fees is because some points you can rent are "trust points" while some are "elected points" from weeks. There is almost no difference between the points, but the ones that come from elected weeks may have MF/point of 30c-50c so those owners are generally happy to rent for 67c-69c.

For example, my NCV Platinum week has MF (+tax) of around $1550 and converts to 3475 points. That's 45c/point, and much lower than the 65c MFs per trust point. At the going rate, I could rent those 3475 points for about $2400, which is quite higher than the week's MFs (but I can also rent the week itself for more than that, which is what I would normally do if I end up renting).

It's hard for actual point owners to compete in that rental market because they can easily be undercut by owners with elected points. So the going rate ends up being 3-5 cents over trust point MFs.


----------



## Red elephant

duke said:


> Went to Owners Update:
> 
> DC points for each:
> WMH - Platinum - 3,150
> Princeville - 4,300
> SMV - Winter - 3,125
> VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950
> 
> Was also told:
> 1. Maui would be 7,450
> 2. No sales of deeded units or Flex after merger.  Only sales of DC points.
> 3. DC points will cost 15.92/point
> 4. DC points allocated to current VSE owners are dependent on location, season, and PRICE PAID.
> 5. No requals or trade in after merger.
> 
> Received $150 for attending.


I just received my conversion rates if this helps.
Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
SDO 81,000-1,975
SVR 81,000-2,600
Harborside 67,100.TBD


----------



## TravelTime

Red elephant said:


> I just received my conversion rates if this helps.
> Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
> Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
> Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
> SDO 81,000-1,975
> SVR 81,000-2,600
> Harborside 67,100.TBD



WSJ worth 176,700 seems very low for the conversion to DPs. I would have thought St John is more desirable and would be given more DPs.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> WSJ worth 176,700 seems very low for the conversion to DPs. I would have thought St John is more desirable and would be given more DPs.



Good luck telling those owners to pony up $40K to enroll a week so they can get 4 days on Maui.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> WSJ worth 176,700 seems very low for the conversion to DPs. I would have thought St John is more desirable and would be given more DPs.


176,700 looks to be a 2BR in platinum plus season. This closely equates to Platinum Season at Frenchman's Cove. I think Marriott is trying to align these more to similarly located MVC resorts. That said, Platinum 2BR Frenchman's Cove only gets 3,650 points when elected. So there is certainly a premium put on WSJ. We need to stop thinking of Vistana resort only in the Vistana sphere when considering how they will allocate points.


----------



## Red elephant

dioxide45 said:


> 176,700 looks to be a 2BR in platinum plus season. This closely equates to Platinum Season at Frenchman's Cove. I think Marriott is trying to align these more to similarly located MVC resorts. That said, Platinum 2BR Frenchman's Cove only gets 3,650 points when elected. So there is certainly a premium put on WSJ. We need to stop thinking of Vistana resort only in the Vistana sphere when considering how they will allocate points.


Your correct. Initially I was like they have got to be kidding me!! But now that you compare it to the Marriott in St Thomas it makes sense. I will not be converting my week. If I don’t go then I will rent.


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> 176,700 looks to be a 2BR in platinum plus season. This closely equates to Platinum Season at Frenchman's Cove. I think Marriott is trying to align these more to similarly located MVC resorts. That said, Platinum 2BR Frenchman's Cove only gets 3,650 points when elected. So there is certainly a premium put on WSJ. We need to stop thinking of Vistana resort only in the Vistana sphere when considering how they will allocate points.



It seems really low since I thought St John was considered a premium location within Vistana. I thought St John was much more desirable than St Thomas based upon comments on TUG who say they prefer to stay in St John. I was told WKOVRN 2 BR will get over 8300 DPs. That is nearly double St John. Rather shocking really. The good news is if MVC is assigning relatively low point value for conversions then it will be low to book at these locations using DPs. So that’s a huge plus for DP owners. To me, Ritz St Thomas in the summer is the best deal in the system.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> It seems really low since I thought St John was considered a premium location within Vistana. I thought St John was much more desirable than St Thomas based upon comments on TUG who say they prefer to stay in St John. I was told WKOVRN 2 BR will get over 8300 DPs. That is nearly double St John. Rather shocking really. The good news is if MVC is assigning relatively low point value for conversions then it will be low to book at these locations using DPs. So that’s a huge plus for DP owners. To me, Ritz St Thomas in the summer is the best deal in the system.


At those rates I could see split stays happening. Half Ritz or MFC combined with Half WSJ stays. Best of both worlds.


----------



## Eric B

TravelTime said:


> WSJ worth 176,700 seems very low for the conversion to DPs. I would have thought St John is more desirable and would be given more DPs.



That valuation for WSJ is one that seems about as far off or more as what I’ve heard for WKV.  I’ve rented out a 1 BR VGV platinum plus week for more than the DPs they’re reportedly offering for a 3 BR Coral Vista platinum plus week would cost.  If that’s what it winds up being for WSJ, no thanks for me and likely anyone else owning there.


----------



## TravelTime

Eric B said:


> That valuation for WSJ is one that seems about as far off or more as what I’ve heard for WKV.  I’ve rented out a 1 BR VGV platinum plus week for more than the DPs they’re reportedly offering for a 3 BR Coral Vista platinum plus week would cost.  If that’s what it winds up being for WSJ, no thanks for me and likely anyone else owning there.



The sales person this week was not a hard sell. He said that when he gets resale people at a presentation, he assumes they will not buy. He kept asking us “what questions do you have?” He said there was no need for us to buy DPs to register our week unless we saw some benefit in being able to use DPs down the road. He did throw the curve ball when he said MVC was tracking resale owners but that was the only strange thing he said. He said VSE would not change and we would be able to use it just like before.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> At those rates I could see split stays happening. Half Ritz or MFC combined with Half WSJ stays. Best of both worlds.



Why do you think split stays will happen? We can do split stays now and we don’t do them.


----------



## DanCali

CPNY said:


> At those rates I could see split stays happening. Half Ritz or MFC combined with Half WSJ stays. Best of both worlds.





TravelTime said:


> Why do you think split stays will happen? We can do split stays now and we don’t do them.



As an owner with both systems, I've done those split stays... STJ (WSJ) and STT (MFC), Princeville (WPORV) and Poipu (Marriott Waiohai), Avon and Vail. It's a nice feature and we enjoy them, but you don't need this new rollout to do it.

And I suspect you'll have better luck with WSJ in SVN. I really wouldn't count on WSJ owners to convert to DC points at these rates. From what I've seen on these threads, many of them are proud long-time owners who would probably have no interest trading what they own for what they are being offered. I'm not happy as a WKV owner, but I'd be livid if I was a WSJ owner.

And I think these WSJ conversion rates mostly debunk the rumor that DC point allocations were based on developer prices...


----------



## GregT

Red elephant said:


> I just received my conversion rates if this helps.
> Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
> Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
> Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
> SDO 81,000-1,975
> SVR 81,000-2,600
> Harborside 67,100.TBD



That's very interesting -- I still don't know why Marriott discounted the Caribbean properties (STT/Aruba) as heavily as they did and the pattern continues with St. John.     Maui properties continue to get significant premiums from a point perspective, other Hawaiian islands get some premium but less so.   I think I saw a WPORV for 4,300 -- what a fabulous property and therefore booking it will likely require 4,800 - 5,200 DC points, consistent with the Marriott Kauai properties.   I do see how Marriott is trying to force the Starwood point requirements to correlate with the original Marriott properties and we TUGgers will be able to identify the "point opportunities", similar to how there are deals with StarOptions, or seasonal opportunities.

As one poster noted, Ritz St. Thomas is a "points bargain" and early on in the DC world, Marriott insisted they would not include it into the DC but then the economic reality of many unsold (and foreclosed) weeks with high MFs kicked in and boom, we have amazing access to an incredible property.    

Interesting stuff - and my apologies because I know this change is painful for my Starwood friends.

Best,

Greg


----------



## DanCali

(deleted)


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> As an owner with both systems, I've done those split stays... STJ (WSJ) and STT (MFC), Princeville (WPORV) and Poipu (Marriott Waiohai), Avon and Vail. It's a nice feature and we enjoy them, but you don't need this new rollout to do it.
> 
> And I suspect you'll have better luck with WSJ in SVN. I really wouldn't count on WSJ owners to convert to DC points at these rates. From what I've seen on these threads, many of them are proud long-time owners who would probably have no interest trading what they own for what they are being offered. I'm not happy as a WKV owner, but I'd be livid if I was a WSJ owner.''
> 
> And I think this mostly debunks the rumor that DC point allocations were based on developer prices...



I would do a split stay between Princeville and Poipu. But for some reason, a split stay between the Ritz and WSJ does not appeal to me. I could do it now, but just no appeal. However if I could not get into the Ritz for more than a week and could get a second week at WSJ, then I would do it. I live too far to go for just one week. I agree that few WSJ owners will convert to DPs. The other thing…if the sales person was correct…you will need to pay a lot just for the privilege of converting to DPs. Why would someone who can already use SOs want to pay to convert? Another Tuggers said it right…MVC should pay us to convert. LOL


----------



## TravelTime

GregT said:


> That's very interesting -- I still don't know why Marriott discounted the Caribbean properties (STT/Aruba) as heavily as they did and the pattern continues with St. John.     Maui properties continue to get significant premiums from a point perspective, other Hawaiian islands get some premium but less so.   I think I saw a WPORV for 4,300 -- what a fabulous property and therefore booking it will likely require 4,800 - 5,200 DC points, consistent with the Marriott Kauai properties.   I do see how Marriott is trying to force the Starwood point requirements to correlate with the original Marriott properties and we TUGgers will be able to identify the "point opportunities", similar to how there are deals with StarOptions, or seasonal opportunities.
> 
> As one poster noted, Ritz St. Thomas is a "points bargain" and early on in the DC world, Marriott insisted they would not include it into the DC but then the economic reality of many unsold (and foreclosed) weeks with high MFs kicked in and boom, we have amazing access to an incredible property.
> 
> Interesting stuff - and my apologies because I know this change is painful for my Starwood friends.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Maui gets a premium but the rest of Hawaii does not. The rest of Hawaii seems discounted compared to Maui. Princeville will be on par with Ko Olina but Princeville has no beach. I love Ko Olina and it should be worth more too. In general, worldwide, Maui is just the most desirable island in Hawaii. Also I believe Maui gets a premium because it books within minutes of opening. The other Hawaiian resorts do not book quickly. Right now, with all the combined resorts that the new program has, it really is quite attractive. MVC now has 90+ resorts in the combined system. That is very impressive. I can see many new prospects buying in even at the crazy retail rates. Hope they find TUG before it is too late to rescind.


----------



## GregT

Hello All,

Do we have other confirmed DC points elections besides these?

WMH - Platinum - 3,150
Princeville - 4,300
SMV - Winter - 3,125
VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950
Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
SDO 81,000-1,975
SVR 81,000-2,600
Harborside 67,100.TBD
SVV 2BR LO Gold Plus season is worth 2575 DP
SDO Platinum 2BR gets 2600 DPs.
81,000 Westin Flex EOY SOs would get me 2,422 DPs
4050 DC points for WKV

While I am not defending any of these point allocations, these would represent Marriott's views of a week's Trading Power.   We've spent many a post talking about Trading Power and how to maximize it.   Marriott has revealed what Trading Power means to them.   

Many TUGgers point out that their week can be utilized in a more efficient manner (renting/using StarOptions) but that's not Marriott's interest.  They figure that you will simply continue to use your week in that more efficient manner and it will never be a part of the Marriott exchange.   They don't care.  They are simply quantifying what they think a week is worth from a Trading Power perspective.   It's a fascinating exercise. 

They assign a huge number of my points to my 3BR Maui units -- but I never redeem them because they are more valuable as a rental.    At first it pissed me off (and it still does) that they skimmed these weeks, because I thought Marriott should want those weeks in the system.  But now I realize that Marriott doesn't care about me or my specific weeks.   They aren't trying to get me to redeem my week, nor trying to get you -- the knowledgeable TUGger -- to redeem your WKV week. 

They know there are plenty of people out there who are tired of going to Scottsdale every year and don't want the hassle of renting their week, and will do what is easy -- use the Marriott exchange.   4,050 points is a lot in the Marriott system -- Marriott is counting on the fact that they can go to Aruba in prime time -- and pick their view category.  And buy more points.

I would love to continue to fill out the points chart above, but I think Starwood owners won't have the bonanza of being able to enroll cheaply, therefore I don't think this will be as interesting as I had originally thought.  I hope the final version allows that, but it doesn't appear to be the case.

Again, my apologies because it is tough stuff seeing the possible roll out and implications on the Starwood weeks.  Many Frenchman's Cove owners were unhappy (justifiably so) that their weeks received so few points in the DC system.   I feel the same will occur for non-Maui owners in Starwood.

Best,

Greg


----------



## TravelTime

GregT said:


> Hello All,
> 
> Do we have other confirmed DC points elections besides these?
> 
> WMH - Platinum - 3,150
> Princeville - 4,300
> SMV - Winter - 3,125
> VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950
> Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
> Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
> Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
> SDO 81,000-1,975
> SVR 81,000-2,600
> Harborside 67,100.TBD
> SVV 2BR LO Gold Plus season is worth 2575 DP
> SDO Platinum 2BR gets 2600 DPs.
> 81,000 Westin Flex EOY SOs would get me 2,422 DPs
> 4050 DC points for WKV
> 
> While I am not defending any of these point allocations, these would represent Marriott's views of a week's Trading Power.   We've spent many a post talking about Trading Power and how to maximize it.   Marriott has revealed what Trading Power means to them.
> 
> Many TUGgers point out that their week can be utilized in a more efficient manner (renting/using StarOptions) but that's not Marriott's interest.  They figure that you will simply continue to use your week in that more efficient manner and it will never be a part of the Marriott exchange.   They don't care.  They are simply quantifying what they think a week is worth from a Trading Power perspective.   It's a fascinating exercise.
> 
> They assign a huge number of my points to my 3BR Maui units -- but I never redeem them because they are more valuable as a rental.    At first it pissed me off (and it still does) that they skimmed these weeks, because I thought Marriott should want those weeks in the system.  But now I realize that Marriott doesn't care about me or my specific weeks.   They aren't trying to get me to redeem my week, nor trying to get you -- the knowledgeable TUGger -- to redeem your WKV week.
> 
> They know there are plenty of people out there who are tired of going to Scottsdale every year and don't want the hassle of renting their week, and will do what is easy -- use the Marriott exchange.   4,050 points is a lot in the Marriott system -- Marriott is counting on the fact that they can go to Aruba in prime time -- and pick their view category.  And buy more points.
> 
> I would love to continue to fill out the points chart above, but I think Starwood owners won't have the bonanza of being able to enroll cheaply, therefore I don't think this will be as interesting as I had originally thought.  I hope the final version allows that, but it doesn't appear to be the case.
> 
> Again, my apologies because it is tough stuff seeing the possible roll out and implications on the Starwood weeks.  Many Frenchman's Cove owners were unhappy (justifiably so) that there weeks received so few points in the DC system.   I feel the same will occur for non-Maui owners in Starwood.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



I think we need to keep in mind that MVC is not devaluing anything. The same way they are assigning points for converting, they are also allowing DP owners to book at what we think are low DP values. I do not see this as devaluing. I see it as an excellent value for DP owners. It is an excellent selling point to say you can book a week in St. John or Princeville for about 4000 to 5000 points.

To add to your list, I was told my 2BR OF at WKOVRN would get a little over 8300 DPs. While that seems high, it also means it will be expensive for DP owners to book there.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> I think we need to keep in mind that MVC is not devaluing anything. The same way they are assigning points for converting, they are also allowing DP owners to book at what we think are low DP values. I do not see this as devaluing. I see it as an excellent value for DP owners. It is an excellent selling point to say you can book a week in St. John or Princeville for about 4000 to 5000 points.
> 
> To add to your list, I was told my 2BR OF at WKOVRN would get a little over 8300 DPs. While that seems high, it also means it will be expensive for DP owners to book there.



If you can exchange today for Maui and tomorrow you can’t with the same deed (for the same size unit, same time period, etc), that’s the very definition of devaluing… 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## remowidget

Ken555 said:


> If you can exchange today for Maui and tomorrow you can’t with the same deed (for the same size unit, same time period, etc), that’s the very definition of devaluing…


That's not the case. Today you can book Maui with Staroptions as you will be able to do tomorrow. You just won't be able to do it through MVC.


----------



## Ken555

remowidget said:


> That's not the case. Today you can book Maui with Staroptions as you will be able to do tomorrow. You just won't be able to do it through MVC.



Of course this is exactly the case. Marriott wants us to use DPs, though it seems we will continue to use SOs for the (near) future. I’ve already stated that I have no intention of pursuing DPs based on these absurd valuations, and the cost requirements to buy in, but still… this is exactly what devaluation looks like.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## rcv82

remowidget said:


> That's not the case. Today you can book Maui with Staroptions as you will be able to do tomorrow. You just won't be able to do it through MVC.



I would expect it to become more difficult to use StarOptions to book Maui for the simple reason that if you own OF in Maui and aren’t going to use and want to, exchange, which will you take: the 176k StarOptions or the 8300 or so DC points? That quantity of DC points seems far more valuable.

Of course, you will have to take action and plan in advance to get DC points. With StarOptions it just happens if you don’t reserve your week. So this will keep at least some StarOption availability. 

The other thing that will help StarOption availability is if they force you to put your whole 2br lock off into DC points, not just being able to deposit your studio. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## jabberwocky

GregT said:


> Hello All,
> 
> Do we have other confirmed DC points elections besides these?
> 
> WMH - Platinum - 3,150
> Princeville - 4,300
> SMV - Winter - 3,125
> VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950
> Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
> Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
> Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
> SDO 81,000-1,975
> SVR 81,000-2,600
> Harborside 67,100.TBD
> SVV 2BR LO Gold Plus season is worth 2575 DP
> SDO Platinum 2BR gets 2600 DPs.
> 81,000 Westin Flex EOY SOs would get me 2,422 DPs
> 4050 DC points for WKV



You can add WKORV-N OF  176,700 - 8325

@GregT - I appreciate your sentiments.  And quite frankly, I'm not too distressed about the merger.  I can still use the properties as I intended as they are in places we like to go.  I had hoped to continue building a bit more of my TS portfolio as I move towards retirement and gradually work less, but I can't see myself doing it at MVC prices when I know what value we had in Vistana.


----------



## DanCali

Ken555 said:


> Of course this is exactly the case. Marriott wants us to use DPs, though it seems we will continue to use SOs for the (near) future. I’ve already stated that I have no intention of pursuing DPs based on these absurd valuations, and the cost requirements to buy in, but still… this is exactly what devaluation looks like.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



It's true that it may be harder to do with Staroptions but, to be fair, it was already pretty hard via SVN if you wanted a 2BR during the summer.

That's why I've been arguing that the rental market is the ultimate equalizer. If I can rent out my WKV week and use that cash to book a 2BR on Maui at a 1:1 ratio, I will still be able to do that next year.


----------



## Ken555

DanCali said:


> It's true that it may be harder to do with Staroptions but, to be fair, it was already pretty hard via SVN if you wanted a 2BR during the summer.
> 
> That's why I've been arguing that the rental market is the ultimate equalizer. If I can rent out my WKV week and use that cash to book a 2BR on Maui at a 1:1 ratio, I will still be able to do that next year.



You’re splitting hairs. It doesn’t matter if it was difficult or not, it was possible. Using DPs it’s not even possible.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## DanCali

jabberwocky said:


> I had hoped to continue building a bit more of my TS portfolio as I move towards retirement and gradually work less, but I can't see myself doing it at MVC prices when I know what value we had in Vistana.



A nice way to expand your portfolio with the current system is to forget about your WKORV-N week (and buy another one...).

Assuming your Maui week is eligible to be enrolled in the DC then Congratulations! Your current WKORV-N is now MVC points. You are the proud owner of 8325 DC Points that have MFs of 36c per point (compared to DC trust points at 65c MFs). Enjoy them as you see fit every year... Use them to exchange to 90+ resorts, or you can even rent them out for around $5700, which is probably better than renting your actual week (the one I just suggested you forget about).

But wait - I assume you bought that week because you like Maui and actually go there often! Then the easy solution is to just buy another unenrolled resale week at the same place. Now you are exactly where you were pre-DC, and you also added 8325 points in a super-cost-effective way! The retail value of that would be over $100K and at much higher annual MFs...

That's kind of what I did with my NCV weeks in the Marriott system. After I enrolled my weeks, I got tired of hearing from salespeople that I should buy more points, so I just bought more weeks...


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## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> If you can exchange today for Maui and tomorrow you can’t with the same deed (for the same size unit, same time period, etc), that’s the very definition of devaluing…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Is that what’s happening? I thought nothing was changing within VSE.


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## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> Is that what’s happening? I thought nothing was changing within VSE.



See the forest.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Red elephant

rcv82 said:


> I would expect it to become more difficult to use StarOptions to book Maui for the simple reason that if you own OF in Maui and aren’t going to use and want to, exchange, which will you take: the 176k StarOptions or the 8300 or so DC points? That quantity of DC points seems far more valuable.
> 
> Of course, you will have to take action and plan in advance to get DC points. With StarOptions it just happens if you don’t reserve your week. So this will keep at least some StarOption availability.
> 
> The other thing that will help StarOption availability is if they force you to put your whole 2br lock off into DC points, not just being able to deposit your studio.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


My understanding is that you cannot split the lockoff to deposit into DC points. It’s all or nothing.


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## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> See the forest.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



That has not happened with Marriott resale weeks so why would Vistana owners lose their weeks?


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## regatta333

Red elephant said:


> My understanding is that you cannot split the lockoff to deposit into DC points. It’s all or nothing.



That is also what I was told.  What I don't understand is why you are disadvantaged by having a 2BD WKV.  If you had two separate 1BD platinum season (the larger and smaller one) and deposited each separately, you'd get 700 more DC points than depositing the entire 2BD LO.  I asked if it would be possible to pay to re-record the deed and separate the units, but they said no.  When I asked about why parts did not add to the whole, I was told that more people look to book 1BDs so they are "more valuable".  What are the odds that the entire lockoff would be made available through DC rather than being split off into the 2 1BDs?  This does not seem right to me and for this reason, I'll not be converting my 2BD LO.  I'll either use or rent.


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## wjarcher

regatta333 said:


> That is also what I was told.  What I don't understand is why you are disadvantaged by having a 2BD WKV.  If you had two separate 1BD platinum season (the larger and smaller one) and deposited each separately, you'd get 700 more DC points than depositing the entire 2BD LO.  I asked if it would be possible to pay to re-record the deed and separate the units, but they said no.  When I asked about why parts did not add to the whole, I was told that more people look to book 1BDs so they are "more valuable".  What are the odds that the entire lockoff would be made available through DC rather than being split off into the 2 1BDs?  This does not seem right to me and for this reason, I'll not be converting my 2BD LO.  I'll either use or rent.



This seems to be the way how Marriott DP assigns the points.  It is very different from Vistana where the staroptions just adds up. 

The reason might be that the retail price of a 2 BR lockoff is cheaper than the retail price of a 1 larger BR plus that of the 1 smaller BR (like discount when purchasing a bundle) so somebody reported that they were told Marriott decides the points conversion based on the developer price.  Also if you look at the existing Marriott DP chart, it  requires fewer points to book a 2 BR lock-off rather than booking 1 BR + 1 studio separately.


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## rcv82

wjarcher said:


> This seems to be the way how Marriott DP assigns the points. It is very different from Vistana where the staroptions just adds up.



This seems like a goofy approach to point assignments. Maybe it’s a product of the fact that MVC studios generally suck compared to the Vistana studios and small side units, and they don’t want a bunch of those deposited for DC points without the one bedroom portion. 

While Vistana StarOptions just add up, the maintenance fees do not. This may not be true everywhere, but I know that at SMV, where I own, you will pay substantially higher (on the order of 30%, excluding VSN) maintenance fees by separately buying a small and large unit vs owning a single lock off even though they are the exact same units. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ocdb8r

regatta333 said:


> That is also what I was told.  What I don't understand is why you are disadvantaged by having a 2BD WKV.  If you had two separate 1BD platinum season (the larger and smaller one) and deposited each separately, you'd get 700 more DC points than depositing the entire 2BD LO.  I asked if it would be possible to pay to re-record the deed and separate the units, but they said no.  When I asked about why parts did not add to the whole, I was told that more people look to book 1BDs so they are "more valuable".  What are the odds that the entire lockoff would be made available through DC rather than being split off into the 2 1BDs?  This does not seem right to me and for this reason, I'll not be converting my 2BD LO.  I'll either use or rent.





wjarcher said:


> This seems to be the way how Marriott DP assigns the points.  It is very different from Vistana where the staroptions just adds up.
> 
> The reason might be that the retail price of a 2 BR lockoff is cheaper than the retail price of a 1 larger BR plus that of the 1 smaller BR (like discount when purchasing a bundle) so somebody reported that they were told Marriott decides the points conversion based on the developer price.  Also if you look at the existing Marriott DP chart, it  requires fewer points to book a 2 BR lock-off rather than booking 1 BR + 1 studio separately.



I think people need to suspend any expectation that MVC DP system works in any way like SVN (or even how we traditionally expects time shares to work).  These exact same concerns were all brought up when MVC launched the program and (for this specific example) the impact on existing weeks owners was the same - the value of the two parts of the lock-off did not equal the value of them booked separately (this was lumped in with the overall discussion of "skim").  

The bottom line is, MVC used the launch of the DP program to radically change how timeshares were organized.  The true "cost" for each week/unit size/view was better aligned with the actual demand they saw for each week/unit size/view.  It may not work for everyone, but despite the roar of complaints in the Marriott forum when it was launched, over time it seems like a LOT of people have gotten comfortable with the system and found ways that it benefits them to participate.  After all, this is TUG - we excel at finding the hidden value in any system.

I am glad that many find multiple ways to use their timeshares, but there seems to be a crescendo of people saying they'll just rent when they can't use their weeks.  I think it presents an overly simplistic view of "renting".  Renting takes time and effort, the results are not guaranteed and there are risks involved.  Furthermore, if a large portion of owners at any given resort shifted their usage significantly in this way, there would be a much larger number of units on the market for rent, depressing rental prices.


----------



## ocdb8r

rcv82 said:


> This seems like a goofy approach to point assignments. Maybe it’s a product of the fact that MVC studios generally suck compared to the Vistana studios and small side units, and they don’t want a bunch of those deposited for DC points without the one bedroom portion.



....I will add - this is also how Disney Vacation Club does it. 

I don't think it's them trying to "shape" what they get, but rather reflecting actual demand.  I also think it's a reflection of actual costs - it costs more to service two different groups separately in two units vs one full 2-bedroom.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

TravelTime said:


> It seems really low since I thought St John was considered a premium location within Vistana. I thought St John was much more desirable than St Thomas based upon comments on TUG who say they prefer to stay in St John. I was told WKOVRN 2 BR will get over 8300 DPs. That is nearly double St John. Rather shocking really. The good news is if MVC is assigning relatively low point value for conversions then it will be low to book at these locations using DPs. So that’s a huge plus for DP owners. To me, Ritz St Thomas in the summer is the best deal in the system.



Thanks for sharing your presentation info. This is very helpful.


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## DanCali

wjarcher said:


> The reason might be that the retail price of a 2 BR lockoff is cheaper than the retail price of a 1 larger BR plus that of the 1 smaller BR (like discount when purchasing a bundle) so somebody reported that they were told Marriott decides the points conversion based on the developer price.



The connection between retail prices and point conversion ratios got debunked after we learned WSJ conversion ratios...

Moreover, I believe the retail prices for Vistana were such that the parts added up to the whole, at least for the couple of Westin presentations I attended many years back. So 2BR lockoff units getting 15%-20% less trading power than the separate units also debunks that connection.



rcv82 said:


> While Vistana StarOptions just add up, the maintenance fees do not. This may not be true everywhere, but I know that at SMV, where I own, you will pay substantially higher (on the order of 30%, excluding VSN) maintenance fees by separately buying a small and large unit vs owning a single lock off even though they are the exact same units.




This is not the case for all resorts regarding MFs. At WKV, there is an advantage to owning the small 1BR vs the large 1BR relative to SOs they get, but the sum of the MFs of the two units *exactly* adds up to the whole.

From Vistana 2021 MF thread (2022 missing the large 1BR):
small1BR: $645
large 1BR: $1025
2BR: $1671

So in the case of WKV, the sum of the parts adds up to the whole with (i) retail prices, (ii) maintenance fees (iii) Staroptions, and even (iv) resale prices more or less, at least for Platinum.

But the point allocation if 4050 vs. 4750(?) if you owned the units separately...


----------



## DanCali

ocdb8r said:


> It may not work for everyone, but despite the roar of complaints in the Marriott forum when it was launched, over time it seems like a LOT of people have gotten comfortable with the system and found ways that it benefits them to participate.  After all, this is TUG - we excel at finding the hidden value in any system.



This is true, but those Marriott weeks owners were already predisposed to be loyal to the brand. I am not sure that holds for Vistana owners and, in some cases, it may even be the opposite.

Vistana owners used to get 1 Starpoint (3 Bonvoy points) per $1 on their credit cards - now it's 2 points per $1. They used to book a Westin at 10,000 Starpoints (30,000 Bonvoy points) a night. Now it's 60,000 Bonvoy points in most places. It's not like the ride with Marriott they were forced into has been a great one.



ocdb8r said:


> I am glad that many find multiple ways to use their timeshares, but there seems to be a crescendo of people saying they'll just rent when they can't use their weeks.  I think it presents an overly simplistic view of "renting".  Renting takes time and effort, the results are not guaranteed and there are risks involved.  Furthermore, if a large portion of owners at any given resort shifted their usage significantly in this way, there would be a much larger number of units on the market for rent, depressing rental prices.



This is also true. I, for example, don't mind renting but feel the way you describe about II trading (takes time and effort, the results are not guaranteed and there are risks involved). So I can see how people may not like renting.

That said, a lot of those same people may feel the same about DC trading - it's quite different from Vistana. For example, at Vistana you can elect home resort or Staroptions at any time during the use year if you haven't done so already. And if Staroption inventory is not available for booking, you can keep your home resort (when you confirm a reservation, they have that box that makes you confirm you are giving up your home resort usage).

In the DC, you need to actually elect points by Sep 30 of the prior year and you have no idea if you will be able to get what you need once you try to use the points. I suspect this will turn off a lot of people because the same applies  (the results are not guaranteed and there are risks involved). And if you can't use the points, you have to bank them, retaining the same risk and uncertainly, or rent them, which is where we started off.


----------



## CPNY

DanCali said:


> As an owner with both systems, I've done those split stays... STJ (WSJ) and STT (MFC), Princeville (WPORV) and Poipu (Marriott Waiohai), Avon and Vail. It's a nice feature and we enjoy them, but you don't need this new rollout to do it.
> 
> And I suspect you'll have better luck with WSJ in SVN. I really wouldn't count on WSJ owners to convert to DC points at these rates. From what I've seen on these threads, many of them are proud long-time owners who would probably have no interest trading what they own for what they are being offered. I'm not happy as a WKV owner, but I'd be livid if I was a WSJ owner.
> 
> And I think these WSJ conversion rates mostly debunk the rumor that DC point allocations were based on developer prices...


I’m sure there will be some WSJ units in the DC without people converting. As far as I know, the only way to do a split stay is to own in both systems currently.  I don’t remember hearing of the Ritz in STT coming up in interval to pair with a WSJ booking for someone owning in VSE only.


----------



## DanCali

CPNY said:


> I’m sure there will be some WSJ units in the DC without people converting.



Do you mean developer inventory, or that they will just move inventory from SVN to the DC regardless of whether owners actually elect DC points?


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I would do a split stay between Princeville and Poipu. But for some reason, a split stay between the Ritz and WSJ does not appeal to me. I could do it now, but just no appeal. However if I could not get into the Ritz for more than a week and could get a second week at WSJ, then I would do it. I live too far to go for just one week. I agree that few WSJ owners will convert to DPs. The other thing…if the sales person was correct…you will need to pay a lot just for the privilege of converting to DPs. Why would someone who can already use SOs want to pay to convert? Another Tuggers said it right…MVC should pay us to convert. LOL





TravelTime said:


> Why do you think split stays will happen? We can do split stays now and we don’t do them.




Who’s we? Plenty of people do split stays. Two tuggers just did it at MFC and RITZ in STT this last week. Staying in two resorts in one trip sounds like a split stay to me.


----------



## CPNY

DanCali said:


> Do you mean developer inventory, or that they will just move inventory from SVN to the DC regardless of whether owners actually elect DC points?


Developer inventory. I’m under the impression that they cannot just take inventory from the VSN to the DC at 12 months. I believe at 8 months they can take inventory to fund the exchange company according to the governing documents. That exchange company has always been interval, but with the DC being set up as a separate exchange company, I’d assume they can take inventory from the VSN to fund the DC exchange.


----------



## Eric B

CPNY said:


> I’m sure there will be some WSJ units in the DC without people converting. As far as I know, the only way to do a split stay is to own in both systems currently.  I don’t remember hearing of the Ritz in STT coming up in interval to pair with a WSJ booking for someone owning in VSE only.



 Ritz in STT comes up in ThirdHome, though, and I just paired a week there with a week at WSJ. There's actually a week there in July in ThirdHome right now; someone's got it on hold for the next 12 hours - I might snag it when the hold expires if it doesn't get booked.  It's one of the smaller 2 BR suites.


----------



## rickandcindy23

robertk2012 said:


> Starpoint? If they won’t put it in the contract it isn’t even worth the toilet paper in the bathroom.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh my!  That is funny.  You made me laugh out loud.  Rick looked over at me with puzzlement on his face at my sudden outburst of laughter.


----------



## rickandcindy23

We are keeping our recent resale purchases as-is.  No one is going to talk us into anything that changes what view or what part of the resort we own.  

Why would a person convert the best ownerships to anything Marriott? 

I would consider buying resale Marriott and enrolling those with a purchase.  Or maybe I would consider enrolling a few SBP.  I doubt I would go through with it, but it might be fun to sit through a presentation and see what they have to offer.


----------



## tamu_bu

GregT said:


> Hello All,
> 
> Do we have other confirmed DC points elections besides these?
> 
> WMH - Platinum - 3,150
> Princeville - 4,300
> SMV - Winter - 3,125
> VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950
> Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
> Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
> Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
> SDO 81,000-1,975
> SVR 81,000-2,600
> Harborside 67,100.TBD
> SVV 2BR LO Gold Plus season is worth 2575 DP
> SDO Platinum 2BR gets 2600 DPs.
> 81,000 Westin Flex EOY SOs would get me 2,422 DPs
> 4050 DC points for WKV
> 
> While I am not defending any of these point allocations, these would represent Marriott's views of a week's Trading Power.   We've spent many a post talking about Trading Power and how to maximize it.   Marriott has revealed what Trading Power means to them.
> 
> Many TUGgers point out that their week can be utilized in a more efficient manner (renting/using StarOptions) but that's not Marriott's interest.  They figure that you will simply continue to use your week in that more efficient manner and it will never be a part of the Marriott exchange.   They don't care.  They are simply quantifying what they think a week is worth from a Trading Power perspective.   It's a fascinating exercise.
> 
> They assign a huge number of my points to my 3BR Maui units -- but I never redeem them because they are more valuable as a rental.    At first it pissed me off (and it still does) that they skimmed these weeks, because I thought Marriott should want those weeks in the system.  But now I realize that Marriott doesn't care about me or my specific weeks.   They aren't trying to get me to redeem my week, nor trying to get you -- the knowledgeable TUGger -- to redeem your WKV week.
> 
> They know there are plenty of people out there who are tired of going to Scottsdale every year and don't want the hassle of renting their week, and will do what is easy -- use the Marriott exchange.   4,050 points is a lot in the Marriott system -- Marriott is counting on the fact that they can go to Aruba in prime time -- and pick their view category.  And buy more points.
> 
> I would love to continue to fill out the points chart above, but I think Starwood owners won't have the bonanza of being able to enroll cheaply, therefore I don't think this will be as interesting as I had originally thought.  I hope the final version allows that, but it doesn't appear to be the case.
> 
> Again, my apologies because it is tough stuff seeing the possible roll out and implications on the Starwood weeks.  Many Frenchman's Cove owners were unhappy (justifiably so) that their weeks received so few points in the DC system.   I feel the same will occur for non-Maui owners in Starwood.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


I appreciate the summary. It probably would be best to note the unit size for each to improve the quick reference.


----------



## VacationForever

DanCali said:


> In the DC, you need to actually elect points by Sep 30 of the prior year and you have no idea if you will be able to get what you need once you try to use the points. I suspect this will turn off a lot of people because the same applies  (the results are not guaranteed and there are risks involved). And if you can't use the points, you have to bank them, retaining the same risk and uncertainly, or rent them, which is where we started off.


Actually, in DC system, since you can book 13 months ahead and if you want to reserve anything from Jan to October of the following year, you would already know if there is inventory for you to book before the Sept 30th election deadline.  For Presidential and Chairman's Club level, election deadline is Oct 31st, which means that you would already find out if there is inventory from Jan to Nov 30th for the following year. The only gap in not knowing whether there is inventory is Nov-Dec for Select/Executive and Dec for Presidential/Chairman's Club.


----------



## ssanel54

GregT said:


> Hello All,
> 
> Do we have other confirmed DC points elections besides these?
> 
> WMH - Platinum - 3,150
> Princeville - 4,300
> SMV - Winter - 3,125
> VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950
> Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
> Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
> Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
> SDO 81,000-1,975
> SVR 81,000-2,600
> Harborside 67,100.TBD
> SVV 2BR LO Gold Plus season is worth 2575 DP
> SDO Platinum 2BR gets 2600 DPs.
> 81,000 Westin Flex EOY SOs would get me 2,422 DPs
> 4050 DC points for WKV
> 
> While I am not defending any of these point allocations, these would represent Marriott's views of a week's Trading Power.   We've spent many a post talking about Trading Power and how to maximize it.   Marriott has revealed what Trading Power means to them.
> 
> Many TUGgers point out that their week can be utilized in a more efficient manner (renting/using StarOptions) but that's not Marriott's interest.  They figure that you will simply continue to use your week in that more efficient manner and it will never be a part of the Marriott exchange.   They don't care.  They are simply quantifying what they think a week is worth from a Trading Power perspective.   It's a fascinating exercise.
> 
> They assign a huge number of my points to my 3BR Maui units -- but I never redeem them because they are more valuable as a rental.    At first it pissed me off (and it still does) that they skimmed these weeks, because I thought Marriott should want those weeks in the system.  But now I realize that Marriott doesn't care about me or my specific weeks.   They aren't trying to get me to redeem my week, nor trying to get you -- the knowledgeable TUGger -- to redeem your WKV week.
> 
> They know there are plenty of people out there who are tired of going to Scottsdale every year and don't want the hassle of renting their week, and will do what is easy -- use the Marriott exchange.   4,050 points is a lot in the Marriott system -- Marriott is counting on the fact that they can go to Aruba in prime time -- and pick their view category.  And buy more points.
> 
> I would love to continue to fill out the points chart above, but I think Starwood owners won't have the bonanza of being able to enroll cheaply, therefore I don't think this will be as interesting as I had originally thought.  I hope the final version allows that, but it doesn't appear to be the case.
> 
> Again, my apologies because it is tough stuff seeing the possible roll out and implications on the Starwood weeks.  Many Frenchman's Cove owners were unhappy (justifiably so) that their weeks received so few points in the DC system.   I feel the same will occur for non-Maui owners in Starwood.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



When you mention these as confirmed, what does that mean?  Have people started to receive documentation, or is this from the "unofficial chart" that the Sales offices are referencing?  I recently attended a presentation at Lagunamar.  The figures they shared were in line with the above for SDO and WKV.  The numbers for Mexico sounded like they were at a Premium.  I dont recall the exact figure, but the Lagunamar Studio had a higher DC value than the SDO 2BR.  They also said they weren't supposed to be sharing these numbers, so I took everything with a grain of salt.


----------



## DanCali

VacationForever said:


> Actually, in DC system, since you can book 13 months ahead and if you want to reserve anything from Jan to October of the following year, you would already know if there is inventory for you to book before the Sept 30th election deadline.  For Presidential and Chairman's Club level, election deadline is Oct 31st, which means that you would already find out if there is inventory from Jan to Nov 30th for the following year. The only gap in not knowing whether there is inventory is Nov-Dec for Select/Executive and Dec for Presidential/Chairman's Club.



I think what you say is generally correct, but:

(1) If you don't have the points in your account you would not know full details about what is available - for example, you may see 2BR unit is available but not the view type, correct? You'd get a message that you don't have enough points, like I just tried below. If in the screenshot below 6025 points is an IV unit, I still don't know if OV is available. I can only see that if I have enough points in my account.





(2) You don't actually know that it will be available at 9am ET when the booking window opens. But you have to elect the points in advance to be able to book it just in case. And the point election is not reversible. In Vistana, unless you confirm a Staroptions reservation, you can still make home resort reservations at 8-12 months out.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> That has not happened with Marriott resale weeks so why would Vistana owners lose their weeks?



The ability to reserve home resorts is not in question. The ability, long-term, to trade via SOs, is the issue. If more and more opt not to use SOs and use DPs instead then the available units for SOs will diminish and over time encourage owners to do something else with their weeks, such as using them directly, renting, or enrolling their weeks into the DP program. And if you use DPs to trade then it is a huge devaluation over the current trading ability. This is a major change to our ownership, even if it will not impact us for some years.

Those suggesting SOs will continue to be a viable long-term solution are ignoring the implied concern of a naturally limited inventory system.

It is quite interesting that some people are advocating the belief that this is anything but a devaluation, even if it will not impact us immediately. The program we bought into is changing for the worse, and the only way it will remain similar (or improve) for individuals is if you cough up another significant investment.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## vacation dreaming

DanCali said:


> I think what you say is generally correct, but:
> 
> (1) If you don't have the points in your account you would not know full details about what is available - for example, you may see 2BR unit is available but not the view type, correct? You'd get a message that you don't have enough points, like I just tried below. If in the screenshot below 6025 points is an IV unit, I still don't know if OV is available. I can only see that if I have enough points in my account.
> 
> View attachment 52600
> 
> (2) You don't actually know that it will be available at 9am ET when the booking window opens. But you have to elect the points in advance to be able to book it just in case. And the point election is not reversible. In Vistana, unless you confirm a Staroptions reservation, you can still make home resort reservations at 8-12 months out.


Please explain this to me as I don’t own points yet, I have never seen these screens.  Is your screen shot telling me that March 30 is available for 10 nights because the square is white, not greyed out, but it only will tell you a 2 bedroom is available for 6,025 and you don’t know the view options?  I guess you could figure out the view based on the number of points, but since it says “starting at” that implies there may be more expensive options.  If you did this with a resort which had studios you would not know if a two bedroom is available if you do not have the points in your account?  If I understand your point correctly, it makes it harder to decide to convert points if you don’t know that bigger, better units are even available until you agree to convert.


----------



## GregT

Does anyone have any more pictures of points charts?

The attached has:

Westin St. John
Lagunamar
Westin Kaanapali North (I assume WKORV and Nanea are the same)
Sheraton Desert Oasis
Westin Kierland
Sheraton Vistana Resort

I'm particularly interested in WPORV (because I love that property) -- none of the Kauai Marriotts have 1BR options, except for the hotel conversion Kauai Beach Club, so having a true 1BR option will be additive.   

Thanks very much!

Best,

Greg


----------



## vacation dreaming

vacation dreaming said:


> Please explain this to me as I don’t own points yet, I have never seen these screens.  Is your screen shot telling me that March 30 is available for 10 nights because the square is white, not greyed out, but it only will tell you a 2 bedroom is available for 6,025 and you don’t know the view options?  I guess you could figure out the view based on the number of points, but since it says “starting at” that implies there may be more expensive options.  If you did this with a resort which had studios you would not know if a two bedroom is available if you do not have the points in your account?  If I understand your point correctly, it makes it harder to decide to convert points if you don’t know that bigger, better units are even available until you agree to convert.


Second question - If you called into owner services, would they tell you what is available before you elected to convert?


----------



## GregT

Ken555 said:


> The ability to reserve home resorts is not in question. The ability, long-term, to trade via SOs, is the issue. If more and more opt not to use SOs and use DPs instead then the available units for SOs will diminish and over time encourage owners to do something else with their weeks, such as using them directly, renting, or enrolling their weeks into the DP program. And if you use DPs to trade then it is a huge devaluation over the current trading ability. This is a major change to our ownership, even if it will not impact us for some years.
> 
> Those suggesting SOs will continue to be a viable long-term solution are ignoring the implied concern of a naturally limited inventory system.
> 
> It is quite interesting that some people are advocating the belief that this is anything but a devaluation, even if it will not impact us immediately. The program we bought into is changing for the worse, and the only way it will remain similar (or improve) for individuals is if you cough up another significant investment.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Ken, you may be correct.   

Trading via StarOptions will become a different experience, but I don't know yet if it will become unsatisfactory.   There may be fewer of those desirable weeks available for StarOption usage, but there may be less competition pursuing those best weeks because some of the competitors migrated to the DC, or gave up.     

Similar concerns were raised that Interval trading would dry up after 2010 but I still get satisfactory trades.   The predictability is harder but I still get great trades and early enough to be useful.

I still meet owners at the BBQ who own Maui Ocean Club weeks and would get lots of points for them, but 12 years in, they still harbor ill will towards Marriott and refuse to participate in the DC.   I suspect there will be lots of Starwood owners who feel the same way -- they don't like being skimmed and think the system is overcomplicated, and know that they have more powerful currency remaining with StarOptions.    

I think TUGgers will continue to make the most of whatever the system becomes.    

Best,

Greg


----------



## DanCali

vacation dreaming said:


> Please explain this to me as I don’t own points yet, I have never seen these screens.  Is your screen shot telling me that March 30 is available for 10 nights because the square is white, not greyed out, but it only will tell you a 2 bedroom is available for 6,025 and you don’t know the view options?  I guess you could figure out the view based on the number of points, but since it says “starting at” that implies there may be more expensive options.



Correct. If 6025 is IV you don't know if OV is available. Some resorts like Crystal Shores have  7 different view categories.



vacation dreaming said:


> If you did this with a resort which had studios you would not know if a two bedroom is available if you do not have the points in your account?



Not quite. You will see a box saying "Studio" and another saying "1BR" and another saying "2BR" all with the minimum points required. You just won't see the view categories.



vacation dreaming said:


> If I understand your point correctly, it makes it harder to decide to convert points if you don’t know that bigger, better units are even available until you agree to convert.



Corrected what I meant in your quote. If you are looking specifically for Oceanfront, you can't do a search for that specifically and you don't know if it's available unless you have the points.


----------



## vacation dreaming

DanCali said:


> Correct. If 6025 is IV you don't know if OV is available. Some resorts like Crystal Shores have  7 different view categories.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite. You will see a box saying "Studio" and another saying "1BR" and another saying "2BR" all with the minimum points required. You just won't see the view categories.
> 
> 
> 
> Corrected what I meant in your quote. If you are looking specifically for Oceanfront, you can't do a search for that specifically and you don't know if it's available unless you have the points.


These are important points to me.  I assume if you called they would tell you what views are available?  I don’t like calling because the best units in high demand times would go quickly but I am assuming you could get the info that way.  View is important to my family so this is a big negative.


----------



## kozykritter

DanCali said:


> I think what you say is generally correct, but:
> 
> (1) If you don't have the points in your account you would not know full details about what is available - for example, you may see 2BR unit is available but not the view type, correct? You'd get a message that you don't have enough points, like I just tried below. If in the screenshot below 6025 points is an IV unit, I still don't know if OV is available. I can only see that if I have enough points in my account.


I just want to confirm what you are saying. Is there no way to check availability without already having all of the necessary points in your account? Of course we know with Vistana you can check all the availability you want even if you have zero SOs in your account. If you have to have the DC points first then this means that Vistana-only owners would have to elect DC without having any idea if what they want is available, regardless of the time frame of the reservation (though maybe owner services could tell you). That makes election a lot less attractive if that's the case!


----------



## Ken555

kozykritter said:


> I just want to confirm what you are saying. Is there no way to check availability without already having all of the necessary points in your account? Of course we know with Vistana you can check all the availability you want even if you have zero star options in your account. If you have to have the DC points first then this means that Vistana-only owners would have to elect DC without having any idea if what they want is available, regardless of the time frame of the reservation. That makes election a lot less attractive if that's the case!



Yet another big negative on system usage and expectations compared to what we currently have. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DanCali

kozykritter said:


> I just want to confirm what you are saying. Is there no way to check availability without already having all of the necessary points in your account? Of course we know with Vistana you can check all the availability you want even if you have zero SOs in your account. If you have to have the DC points first then this means that Vistana-only owners would have to elect DC without having any idea if what they want is available, regardless of the time frame of the reservation (though maybe owner services could tell you). That makes election a lot less attractive if that's the case!



When the DC launched you could not check availability online without having the required points.

That was enhanced over time. In the current system, from which I provided screenshots, you can tell in advance if particular room sizes are available. You just can't tell all the particular view categories that are available unless you have the points.

You also can't check availability outside the booking window, like you can with Vistana.



vacation dreaming said:


> These are important points to me.  I assume if you called they would tell you what views are available?  I don’t like calling because the best units in high demand times would go quickly but I am assuming you could get the info that way.  View is important to my family so this is a big negative.



Yes, if you call I believe that solves the problem. They can check availability, elect points for you, and make the booking.


----------



## kozykritter

DanCali said:


> When the DC launched you could not check availability online without having points.
> 
> That was enhanced over time. In the current system, from which I provided screenshots, you can tell in advance if particular room sizes are available. You just can't tell all the particular view categories that are available unless you have the points.


Okay, that's better than nothing, at least for the way I travel. Still an adjustment from Vistana but what transition isn't? That's life


----------



## remowidget

GregT said:


> Does anyone have any more pictures of points charts?


You can download the complete charts here:  https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...4QFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2wzLKN-sA_mBQKe9wvZdUJ


----------



## GregT

remowidget said:


> You can download the complete charts here:  https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...4QFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2wzLKN-sA_mBQKe9wvZdUJ


Thank you for this -- also looking for any more of the points charts for the Westin and Sheraton properties.    Thanks again!

Best,

Greg


----------



## remowidget

GregT said:


> Thank you for this -- also looking for any more of the points charts for the Westin and Sheraton properties.    Thanks again!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Vistana is here:  https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0HpdMHxOoILhVaKnJY8mE2


----------



## dioxide45

ssanel54 said:


> When you mention these as confirmed, what does that mean?  Have people started to receive documentation, or is this from the "unofficial chart" that the Sales offices are referencing?  I recently attended a presentation at Lagunamar.  The figures they shared were in line with the above for SDO and WKV.  The numbers for Mexico sounded like they were at a Premium.  I dont recall the exact figure, but the Lagunamar Studio had a higher DC value than the SDO 2BR.  They also said they weren't supposed to be sharing these numbers, so I took everything with a grain of salt.


The numbers that @GregT posted are what people have been provided when attending a sales presentation. Some are backed up with others posting the same numbers, and others are one time reports. For the most part I think we can trust them. Some may be off a little because sales reps seem to want to convert from StarOptions to Club Points using a ratio like 32.123:1 instead of just saying a Platinum Week at X resort equals a certain amount. Marriott isn't assigning points to weeks based on ratios to StarOptions, they are doing so based on the underlying deeded week, season, view, resort.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> Who’s we? Plenty of people do split stays. Two tuggers just did it at MFC and RITZ in STT this last week. Staying in two resorts in one trip sounds like a split stay to me.



We is me. We do split stays sometimes. I prefer to stay in one resort when possible bc I do not like packing up and moving on vacation unless there is a good reason like traveling through Europe or combining a land and cruise vacation. In Maui next year, I booked one week at WKOVRN and a second week at MOC only because I own in the two different systems and can’t combine them unless I pay to enroll my Vistana week. If my WKOVRN were enrolled, I suspect I would have booked 2 weeks at one resort. I would have booked whichever one was available since, to me, they are a pretty similar experience. As you know, I much prefer staying at the Ritz in St Thomas so that’s why I would not want a split stay in the USVIs unless that is all that was available.


----------



## Ken555

GregT said:


> Ken, you may be correct.
> 
> Trading via StarOptions will become a different experience, but I don't know yet if it will become unsatisfactory. There may be fewer of those desirable weeks available for StarOption usage, but there may be less competition pursuing those best weeks because some of the competitors migrated to the DC, or gave up.
> 
> Similar concerns were raised that Interval trading would dry up after 2010 but I still get satisfactory trades. The predictability is harder but I still get great trades and early enough to be useful.
> 
> I still meet owners at the BBQ who own Maui Ocean Club weeks and would get lots of points for them, but 12 years in, they still harbor ill will towards Marriott and refuse to participate in the DC. I suspect there will be lots of Starwood owners who feel the same way -- they don't like being skimmed and think the system is overcomplicated, and know that they have more powerful currency remaining with StarOptions.
> 
> I think TUGgers will continue to make the most of whatever the system becomes.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Greg,

I’ve read your posts for years with interest, and envy your eternal optimism. 

Finding value is not my problem. Part of the reason I enjoy timeshares so much is the “playing the game” component of learning the rules, seeking how best to utilize options, etc. I suspect I will continue to enjoy my WKV deed for some time, though I’m unclear at this point how I will use it with as much certainty as I have had for the last 16 years. 

Don’t misunderstand my posts. I am critical of the integration plan and resort value in DP because it deserves criticism. Marriott seems to be taking a well oiled machine and adding so many new parts that it requires another engine just to keep going as fast, to the benefit of Marriott and Marriott only.

This is unlike our existing system whereby currently we have somewhat equality throughout our resorts - and there is no skim, no artificial value changes based on unit size, etc. This new program (to us) changes that dramatically, adding a class system where there was none, requiring additional points (ie devaluation) in order to get exactly what we have been obtaining for a long time, weird and strangely unjustified valuation on certain weeks (and that crazy 1bd + 1bed vs 2bd DP allocation differential), etc. It is, however, a system I would design to maximize profit for the management and development companies.

Even if it all stops for me this year (and it won’t), I will look back on my WKV purchase as a smart decision. If I was to sell my week now for a realistic price, my average nightly cost for an anticipated 356 nights (I have banked StarOptions so am making some assumptions on use) is just $93.15. And, if I am successful at renting my WKV week for next year that nightly average reduces to ~$80-85. In other words, I’m not so worried about my financial position…since if I am successful at renting and I am ultimately unable to use the week within the network as I have, I may be able to just rent it - which then might actually turn the purchase into a profit, given enough years. And I, for one, would take the time to rent it…assuming it is not an annoyingly large time investment.

Nevertheless, these changes with MVC/VSN and the recent Marriott hotel devaluation and switch to dynamic redemption pricing may push me to change to using a competitor more frequently than before. I still have significant BonvoyPesos to use and I have two of their credit cards, but I’ve already moved a majority of my spend to other cards and it just may be that time to reconsider everything…again. 

Of course, I also recognize that my travel patterns have started to change after owning timeshares for 17 years. I am taking more cruises (I’m on a ship today, which is the second of four consecutive cruises on two ships over 33 nights, after which there is a land component of 15 nights that includes six nights will be at HGVC resorts in Scotland - my first time staying at HGVC, and of course offers me a glimpse at yet another program (undergoing its own transformation)). While I suspect I will always be interested in timeshares, I’m not oblivious to the need for flexibility. I gravitate toward programs which offer flexibility, value, and superior qualities…though often accept less. I will say I am disappointed that SVN/VSN wasn’t successful in adding numerous additional resorts as was the hope long ago, and even Marriott is not adding new destinations outside of acquisition (or am I misinformed?). 

Change isn’t always bad. I’m still waiting for the official update re VSN but it certainly seems like what I predicted some time ago is coming true…the program is going to be worse for most VSN owners unless we purchase more. Hope I’m wrong.

Enjoy,
Ken


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

Eric B said:


> Ritz in STT comes up in ThirdHome, though, and I just paired a week there with a week at WSJ. There's actually a week there in July in ThirdHome right now; someone's got it on hold for the next 12 hours - I might snag it when the hold expires if it doesn't get booked.  It's one of the smaller 2 BR suites.



I just saw it. Hope you get it. Those are prime dates for the summer. One thing is that it costs about half to book through DPs. Not that 8 keys plus $1200 is not a good deal. That would probably be about $4500 or so between MFs for the week to get 8 keys and the exchange fee. But with DPs, a summer week is about 3900 DPs or comes out to about $2700 for the week in MFs (and even less for people who can convert lower MF weeks to DPs).


----------



## Eric B

TravelTime said:


> I just saw it. Hope you get it. Those are prime dates for the summer. One thing is that it costs about half to book through DPs. Not that 8 keys plus $1200 is not a good deal. That would probably be about $4500 or so between MFs for the week to get 8 keys and the exchange fee. But with DPs, a summer week is about 3900 DPs or comes out to about $2700 for the week in MFs (and even less for people who can convert lower MF weeks to DPs).



Cost really depends on what you use to trade; it looks like whatever weeks you're using in ThirdHome get you keys at $412.50/key.  The weeks I'm using get me keys at ~$150/key, so the overall cost for that week would be ~$2,400, which would beat the DP price.  There's a bit less availability going through that exchange, but my last trip there in April was only 6 keys for the larger 2 BR - the owner depositing this one set a custom price at 8 keys rather than the 6 keys it should be.  Someone will probably grab it at that cost, though.


----------



## remowidget

Ken555 said:


> This is unlike our existing system whereby currently we have somewhat equality throughout our resorts - and there is no skim, no artificial value changes based on unit size, etc.


My perspective is different. We originally purchased while in Maui, but purchased Princeville because of inequality. It was about $5k cheaper and I could still book Maui. A couple years later, without having ever been to Kauai, we traded in our Princeville lockoff for three platinum 148,100 Lagunamar lockoffs. While we were blown away by Lagunamar, a big part of this was Lagunamar was buy 2 get one free when compared to Princeville, even better when compared to Maui. Plus the maintenance fees were half of the Hawaiian resorts. I felt and still feel like we get huge value. For the last few years, we stay 10 weeks in a one bedroom with ocean view for our ~$5k maintenance fees. 

We are at the point we don't even want to go back to Maui, too many people. We were in stop and go traffic pretty much all the way from the airport to the Westin on our last trip, and we travel in shoulder seasons.


----------



## TravelTime

Eric B said:


> Cost really depends on what you use to trade; it looks like whatever weeks you're using in ThirdHome get you keys at $412.50/key.  The weeks I'm using get me keys at ~$150/key, so the overall cost for that week would be ~$2,400, which would beat the DP price.  There's a bit less availability going through that exchange, but my last trip there in April was only 6 keys for the larger 2 BR - the owner depositing this one set a custom price at 8 keys rather than the 6 keys it should be.  Someone will probably grab it at that cost, though.



I was just going to ask what you desposit to get keys in ThirdHome. For me to get 8 keys, I need to deposit one of my weeks during a holiday week. My weeks are expensive ones where I pay about $3000 in MFs. There are only about 4-6 weeks or so a year where my weeks qualify for the extra two keys. I have only used my FSA weeks so far since I have two of those EOY. 

I have found that ThirdHome does not do a good job of valuing properties. I would use ThirdHome more but for my nice properties, they really do not give me enough keys to justify it. I was almost going to purchase a fractional at Four Seasons Costa Rica. However, Four Seasons does not allow you to rent it out if you do not use the weeks. Then I looked at the options to deposit in ThridHome or EliteAlliance in the years I might not use it. Both exchanges give it very little value.


----------



## sharr7

The reported WSJ 2BR valuation in DP may seem surprising at first, but maybe shouldn't have been based on the leaked points chart. The bulk of the 2BR weeks in high season to reserve come in at either 5500 pts/wk or 4925 pts/wk. Out of curiosity I tried to do the math and average out the costs of all days in the MVC chart that fall under the 176,700 SO level and got ~5350 DP. So perhaps the "skim" is 8-10% here. Or given that they seem to have 2 different DP allocations for some SO/season, perhaps this lends credence to the suggestion that developer price/underlying week/etc will come into play as well, even within a Vistana "season." So these weeks were never going to get 8000 DP or even 6000 DP, as they can't award more points than it costs to reserve. 

Fair questions can be asked about the valuation decisions though. WSJ is valued a tick below MFC and the Ritz STT. I can't comment having never been to those (yet!) but obviously all three resorts have their supporters. 

It seems like the points charts can get you in the ballpark of what DP allocation to expect. I went through all this seeing if I could get any closer on what to expect my 3BR STJ VGV may be worth. If the numbers/skim/etc are similar to 2BR, it looks like 6300-6450 DP. Though I do own a week during a higher DP period so maybe I'll make out slightly better.

TL;DR: keep leaking points charts, and I still hate this soft launch BS....just give us information!


----------



## Ken555

remowidget said:


> My perspective is different. We originally purchased while in Maui, but purchased Princeville because of inequality. It was about $5k cheaper and I could still book Maui.



It would have been even less costly had you simply bought WKV 2-bed platinum plus on the resale market.

But, this isn't what I am referring to in regards to equality. Certainly there are different prices for each resort. The club network (trading via SOs) is what offers the balance... where a prime week in Scottsdale is valued similarly to a prime week elsewhere, etc. That is no longer the case with Marriott.



> A couple years later, without having ever been to Kauai, we traded in our Princeville lockoff for three platinum 148,100 Lagunamar lockoffs. While we were blown away by Lagunamar, a big part of this was Lagunamar was buy 2 get one free when compared to Princeville, even better when compared to Maui. Plus the maintenance fees were half of the Hawaiian resorts. I felt and still feel like we get huge value. For the last few years, we stay 10 weeks in a one bedroom with ocean view for our ~$5k maintenance fees.



That seems like a great deal, assuming you wanted to buy direct. As you may know, Lagunamar had a slow start where they originally commanded just ~9x,xxx SOs for the best week and found universal dislike from owners so had to increase the SOs to 148.1k to make sales. But, you bought Princeville (a voluntary resort) and changed to Lagunamar (another voluntary resort). Depending on when you bought, we might have advised you to spend that extra $5k for Maui instead since it is mandatory and would retain more value (though, of course, the Maui deeds have crashed over the last ten years).

I originally put a deposit (direct) for the proposed Westin Mission Hills North resort, which was never built. They tried to sell me a WKORV 2-bed (may have been EOY) instead for ~$21k (I posted about it at the time, and I don't recall the exact numbers) which was a great price at the time, but even then I was reluctant to buy anything in Maui given their attitude toward timeshare owners (and related taxes, which has only become worse over time) and the high MFs.



> We are at the point we don't even want to go back to Maui, too many people. We were in stop and go traffic pretty much all the way from the airport to the Westin on our last trip, and we travel in shoulder seasons.



I hear you. That's a common complaint amongst those who remember when it was easier to get around. When I visit, I most often get to Lahaina and stay in West Maui for most, if not all, of my time on the island. I also haven't been to Cancun since my first trip in 2008 just months after Lagunamar opened and haven't missed it at all - I much prefer Hawaii.


----------



## TravelTime

Isn’t most of this speculating and complaining about how many DPs are assigned to a property mostly moot if they are making us buy a lot of points to enroll our ineligible resale week? If you are not going to buy points to enroll your Vistana week, then why do we care how many points they are assigning to the week? OTOH, if they allowed us to convert our week for free or nearly free, then we should not complain either because that would be a tremendous benefit to have access to two ways to exchange our week (DPs or SOs). But could/would MVC get rid of the SO program if they allowed everyone to enroll for free/low cost in the DP program?

The main negative I can see down the road to the integration would be if 1) we got locked out of booking our home resort week or 2) it becomes tremendously harder to exchange using SOs (some may say using SOs is already a challenge so not sure I am concerned about this point). So I can understand why Vistana owners are upset about the integration for these reasons.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> Isn’t most of this speculating and complaining about how many DPs are assigned to a property mostly moot if they are making us buy a lot of points to enroll our ineligible resale week? If you are not going to buy points to enroll your Vistana week, then why do we care how many points they are assigning to the week?



In order to determine if we enroll our resale weeks, we need to know the DP valuation and what that allocation would reasonably get us in exchange. The complaints you see here, at least from me, revolve around this issue, which is separate and distinct from any fees Marriott will charge to enroll the week(s).

If they do require us to buy another deed (or equivalent in points), as has been suggested, then that needs to be considered as well in order to determine if it's a good deal or not.



> OTOH, if they allowed us to convert our week for free or nearly free, then we should not complain either because that would be a tremendous benefit to have access to two ways to exchange our week (DPs or SOs).



Yes. Even I have previously posted that if enrollment is a nominal cost, I would certainly consider it (all things being equal, such as the ability to actually USE the allocated DPs in a meaningful way...which I'm not sure of in my case).



> But could/would MVC get rid of the SO program if they allowed everyone to enroll for free/low cost in the DP program?



This has also been discussed. If I was running the program, I would want to consolidate the networks...but I'm sure there are financial reasons to keep both for now, to the benefit of Marriott.



> The main negative I can see down the road to the integration would be if 1) we got locked out of booking our home resort week



This won't happen if you have a deeded week.



> or 2) it becomes tremendously harder to exchange using SOs (some may say using SOs is already a challenge so not sure I am concerned about this point).



"Some" say a lot of things. For 16+ years I've had a relatively easy time booking via SOs and have been able to get what I wanted almost every time.



> So I can understand why Vistana owners are upset about the integration for these reasons.


----------



## SueDonJ

carpie99 said:


> Sorry ... 10 free rounds per week of accommodations?  Any costs at all at the course?  I just got back from a week at SurfWatch ... I am very interested in this


Just to be clear, the feee rounds of golf come only with stays at the Heritage Club resort, and that's because it's paid for with a line-item in the annual MF's. I think the number per week was increased to 12 in 2021 as a result of the affiliation agreement between the resort and the golf provider being renewed? That number is reduced if you use Destination Club points to book less than a week. I'd call the front desk to confirm all the current details.

The other Hilton Head Island resorts have access to reduced golf fees at a few select courses, and I think there's a special phone number for information. Again, a call to the front desk of each resort should get you either that number or maybe the specific info.


----------



## dioxide45

remowidget said:


> My perspective is different. We originally purchased while in Maui, but purchased Princeville because of inequality. It was about $5k cheaper and I could still book Maui. A couple years later, without having ever been to Kauai, we traded in our Princeville lockoff for three platinum 148,100 Lagunamar lockoffs. While we were blown away by Lagunamar, a big part of this was Lagunamar was buy 2 get one free when compared to Princeville, even better when compared to Maui. Plus the maintenance fees were half of the Hawaiian resorts. I felt and still feel like we get huge value. For the last few years, we stay 10 weeks in a one bedroom with ocean view for our ~$5k maintenance fees.
> 
> We are at the point we don't even want to go back to Maui, too many people. We were in stop and go traffic pretty much all the way from the airport to the Westin on our last trip, and we travel in shoulder seasons.


This shows that the main problem is how Vistana marketed their product for many years. They would often price products based on the amount of StarOptions with perhaps a small premium to account for location and resort. I don't know what a 148,100 Westin Desert Willow 2BR sold for, but it was probably very high. Would $60K be wrong? I know that Lagunamar Weeks sold very high and seemed to be priced based on the amount of StarOptions and not really the underlying week. Is a resort in the Desert really worth $60K? No. They could sell it for that with the ability that it could exchange in to Maui on a one to one ratio with StarOptions. When Marriott rolled out their DC product in 2010, they based point values loosely on developer sales prices. Now when they try to integrate Vistana resorts into the same program, they can't really do is that way because they would have huge discrepancies. Like a week in Palm Desert being given 7,000 points. Or 7,000 points to book a week at a Westin in Palm Desert when the Marriott only costs 3,000.

In reality, that Princeville you bought should have cost far less than a Maui week. More than just $5000 less, but they could charge that much because of the ability to also book Maui.


----------



## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> This shows that the main problem is how Vistana marketed their product for many years. They would often price products based on the amount of StarOptions with perhaps a small premium to account for location and resort. I don't know what a 148,100 Westin Desert Willow 2BR sold for, but it was probably very high. Would $60K be wrong? I know that Lagunamar Weeks sold very high and seemed to be priced based on the amount of StarOptions and not really the underlying week. Is a resort in the Desert really worth $60K? No. They could sell it for that with the ability that it could exchange in to Maui on a one to one ratio with StarOptions. When Marriott rolled out their DC product in 2010, they based point values loosely on developer sales prices. Now when they try to integrate Vistana resorts into the same program, they can't really do is that way because they would have huge discrepancies. Like a week in Palm Desert being given 7,000 points. Or 7,000 points to book a week at a Westin in Palm Desert when the Marriott only costs 3,000.
> 
> In reality, that Princeville you bought should have cost far less than a Maui week. More than just $5000 less, but they could charge that much because of the ability to also book Maui.


We paid about $35k a week for our Lagunamar 148,100 weeks. For us, the much lower maintenance fees was the clincher. If we had purchased resale Maui, we would have paid around $15k a week more in maintenance fees over the last 12 years. 

At this point in my life, I am very glad we purchase from the developer. If we had purchased Maui resale, we would have sold when we had a few lean years in the middle. We wouldn't be traveling so much now. We definitely wouldn't have traveled during the lean years.

I've never really cared about resale value. I looked at our purchase like prepaying vacations. We wanted to travel and stay in nice places, which we have done. I compare it to a Motorhome. If I had spent $105K on one 12 years ago, it would not have a much resale value now.


----------



## daviator

Ken555 said:


> Marriott seems to be taking a well oiled machine and adding so many new parts that it requires another engine just to keep going as fast, to the benefit of Marriott and Marriott only.



I have been thinking and saying for years that one of Marriott's goals is to introduce more intentional complexity into an already-complex system and make it harder, or at least more complex, to use.  A more complex system results in more owners who either do not use it effectively, do not use it at all, or walk away, each of which benefits MVW.  They rent out the unreserved weeks and nights (for big bucks, in many cases) and when owners default on their ownerships, the HOAs (i.e. owners, *not* MVW) take the financial hit on any unpaid maintenance fees) and MVW gets a shiny new ownership back into their portfolio, at minimal cost, to resell at full price again.

I think they want to create lots of complicated ways to use our ownerships, so that they can always respond to confused owners with “you should have done x, you could have done y, you should buy more and then you could do z.”  But all the while they are happy if many owners throw up their hands and leave their time unreserved.

Now maybe I’m just overly cynical.  Obviously MVW does not want empty rooms, because they also profit from guests spending money on site.  But they are pretty good at monetizing those empty rooms and filling them, and I suspect they will get even better at that in the future.

All of this is yet another good reason to be here on TUG, as few participants here will be baffled and unable to effectively use what they own.  But from what I see in groups on Facebook, for example, MANY owners are confused about the existing Vistana system and throwing another layer on top is just going to confuse them more.


----------



## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> This shows that the main problem is how Vistana marketed their product for many years. They would often price products based on the amount of StarOptions with perhaps a small premium to account for location and resort. I don't know what a 148,100 Westin Desert Willow 2BR sold for, but it was probably very high. Would $60K be wrong?



I believe it was in the 30's.


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## sharr7

Per the developer pricing in the sticky threads, Princeville was $56k and Maui was $63k IV/$71k OV/$95k OF. Lagunamar 2BR tops out at $43k. With Xmas/NY weeks higher at all 3. 

In my experience the developer pricing doesn't change much or at all. Which is interesting in itself. At least OF get more SOs.


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## Ken555

sharr7 said:


> Per the developer pricing in the sticky threads, Princeville was $56k and Maui was $63k IV/$71k OV/$95k OF. Lagunamar 2BR tops out at $43k. With Xmas/NY weeks higher at all 3.
> 
> In my experience the developer pricing doesn't change much or at all. Which is interesting in itself. At least OF get more SOs.



They were much less 10 years ago.


----------



## SandyPGravel

daviator said:


> I have been thinking and saying for years that one of Marriott's goals is to introduce more *intentional complexity into an already-complex system and make it harder, or at least more complex, to use*.  A more complex system results in more owners who either do not use it effectively, do not use it at all, or walk away, each of which benefits MVW.  They rent out the unreserved weeks and nights (for big bucks, in many cases) and when owners default on their ownerships, the HOAs (i.e. owners, *not* MVW) take the financial hit on any unpaid maintenance fees) and MVW gets a shiny new ownership back into their portfolio, at minimal cost, to resell at full price again.
> 
> I think they want to create lots of complicated ways to use our ownerships, so that they can always respond to confused owners with “you should have done x, you could have done y, you should buy more and then you could do z.”  But all the while they are happy if many owners throw up their hands and leave their time unreserved.
> 
> Now maybe I’m just overly cynical.  Obviously MVW does not want empty rooms, because they also profit from guests spending money on site.  But they are pretty good at monetizing those empty rooms and filling them, and I suspect they will get even better at that in the future.
> 
> All of this is yet another good reason to be here on TUG, as few participants here will be baffled and unable to effectively use what they own.  But from what I see in groups on Facebook, for example, MANY owners are confused about the existing Vistana system and throwing another layer on top is just going to confuse them more.



I agree with you.  The number one reason I give when asked if I would recommend a timeshare to anyone is "No, it's too complicated."  And that was when it was just Starwood/Vistana.  Now with the Marriott aspect thrown into the mix, it's mind numbing.  I kind of hope my WSJ ownerships are so devalued in the new system that I don't even feel the need to look at jumping into the Marriott pool.


----------



## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> I believe it was in the 30's.


Any idea what a WKV 2BR Plat last sold for direct? If my assumptions were incorrect, it seems the Club Point valuations aren't really as out of line as people seem to think. At least when based on sales prices.


----------



## sharr7

Ken555 said:


> They were much less 10 years ago.


Those were from 2008. You saying they've gone up since?

I'm sure no one pays that number - there's always "limited time specials" and "discounts and credits we can offer you today only"

But those old numbers were still pretty accurate recently at HRA and they also quoted a matching number recently telling me what my STJ was "worth"

ETA: my resale STJ (WSJ)


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> I don't know what a 148,100 Westin Desert Willow 2BR sold for, but it was probably very high.


Looks like I paid $20,900 for my EOY 2 BR at WDW and then traded it for an EY a couple years later for an additional $20,935.  So a little less than $42K all in, including closing costs, etc.

I have to add that part of what justified those high prices, in addition to the trading ability within VSN (Sales’ mantra at that time was “buy the most SOs with the lowest MFs”) was the perceived premium for Westin properties and Westin clientele.  Sadly, I think that the premium Westin experience is in decline, and soon the floodgates will open to the Marriott hordes.  I no longer feel that this is a premium product.  (I am staying at WDW now… we set a bag of trash outside the door 48 hours ago and it’s still sitting there.  Used to be that trash was picked up multiple times per day.)


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> Any idea what a WKV 2BR Plat last sold for direct? If my assumptions were incorrect, it seems the Club Point valuations aren't really as out of line as people seem to think. At least when based on sales prices.



A couple of years ago the list price was around $60K but they had a 30% promo in the peak of covid (as did MVC for DC points), so it was around $42K. I think another tugger was quoted $48K (20% off) a few months prior.


----------



## MICROZE

daviator said:


> Looks like I paid $20,900 for my EOY 2 BR at WDW and then traded it for an EY a couple years later for an additional $20,935.  So a little less than $42K all in, including closing costs, etc.
> 
> I have to add that part of what justified those high prices, in addition to the trading ability within VSN (Sales’ mantra at that time was “buy the most SOs with the lowest MFs”) was the perceived premium for Westin properties and Westin clientele.  Sadly, I think that the premium Westin experience is in decline, and soon the floodgates will open to the Marriott hordes.  I no longer feel that this is a premium product.  (I am staying at WDW now… we set a bag of trash outside the door 48 hours ago and it’s still sitting there.  Used to be that trash was picked up multiple times per day.)


We paid $22,900 in 2010 for an EOY 2BR-WLR-PLAT+ [148.1K], followed by $11,000 11 months later to make it EY for a total of just under $34K.
However, we did receive some incentives that were valued at about $7K [20% of the contract value].
Received 100K Star-Points [good for 2-Weeks in a nice Westin Hotel-Room] + 95.7K Star-Options that we used for 1-Week in a 2BR-WSJ.

Most people who purchase direct receive some incentives [Discounts, Hotel-Points, TS-Points] that can be worth 15-25% of the purchase price.

*Maintenance-Fees*

MF Changes: MF have risen by 24% over 10+ years [averaging below 2%/Year].
MF [2BR-WLR/148.1K]: *2010 = *$1207 --> *2021 = *$1502

Exception: 2022 saw the highest increase of 10% in MF. Still well below MF for any of the Hawaii-Resorts.
*Exchange-Value*

Hawaii-Exchanges: Have traveled multiple times to all of the Westin's [always 2BR] in Hawaii via INTERVAL [using a Studio or 1BR]. Never used VSN. Average-Cost $100/Night
Harborside-Exchanges: Have traveled multiple times to Bahamas [always 2BR] by exchanging via VSN for 12-Nights [153100-SO]. Always used VSN. Average-Cost $125/Night


----------



## GonetoMaui

jabberwocky said:


> You can add WKORV-N OF  176,700 - 8325
> 
> @GregT - I appreciate your sentiments.  And quite frankly, I'm not too distressed about the merger.  I can still use the properties as I intended as they are in places we like to go.  I had hoped to continue building a bit more of my TS portfolio as I move towards retirement and gradually work less, but I can't see myself doing it at MVC prices when I know what value we had in Vistana.



I was informed that my WKOVR-N OV EY was valued at 6200 DP's. My Westin Flex and WMH (3150) values that were quoted to me at the same time have been confirmed in previous posts on this thread. If anyone else has information on this Maui DP value I would appreciate it. Thanks!


----------



## DavidnRobin

Not sure about the Stickie on Developer prices, but..,

WKORVN OF price was $68K - $74K (I know this because we bought and rescinded after finding TUG)
WKORVN IV was ~$48K (friend bought one even after warning not to - they regret it now)

WKORV OFD price was ~$65K (I know this because this is what the price the original owner paid for our 2006 resale after finding TUG)

WPORV price was $48K - $56K (we paid $24K for EOY)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## remowidget

MICROZE said:


> We paid $22,900 in 2010 for an EOY 2BR-WLR-PLAT+ [148.1K], followed by $11,000 11 months later to make it EY for a total of just under $34K.



This shows that people paid more apart than together.


----------



## Mowogo

daviator said:


> I have been thinking and saying for years that one of Marriott's goals is to introduce more intentional complexity into an already-complex system and make it harder, or at least more complex, to use.  A more complex system results in more owners who either do not use it effectively, do not use it at all, or walk away, each of which benefits MVW.  They rent out the unreserved weeks and nights (for big bucks, in many cases) and when owners default on their ownerships, the HOAs (i.e. owners, *not* MVW) take the financial hit on any unpaid maintenance fees) and MVW gets a shiny new ownership back into their portfolio, at minimal cost, to resell at full price again.
> 
> I think they want to create lots of complicated ways to use our ownerships, so that they can always respond to confused owners with “you should have done x, you could have done y, you should buy more and then you could do z.”  But all the while they are happy if many owners throw up their hands and leave their time unreserved.
> 
> Now maybe I’m just overly cynical.  Obviously MVW does not want empty rooms, because they also profit from guests spending money on site.  But they are pretty good at monetizing those empty rooms and filling them, and I suspect they will get even better at that in the future.
> 
> All of this is yet another good reason to be here on TUG, as few participants here will be baffled and unable to effectively use what they own.  But from what I see in groups on Facebook, for example, MANY owners are confused about the existing Vistana system and throwing another layer on top is just going to confuse them more.


The complexity offers opportunity to upsell. Because if you want to take advantage of holidays in the newly accessible properties you will need more points for those weeks.  Granted, the relatively generous acceptance of resale Destination Points has me thinking that is likely the way to grow my portfolio of qualified holdings


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## Ken555

GregT said:


> Does anyone have any more pictures of points charts?
> 
> The attached has:
> 
> Westin St. John
> Lagunamar
> Westin Kaanapali North (I assume WKORV and Nanea are the same)
> Sheraton Desert Oasis
> Westin Kierland
> Sheraton Vistana Resort
> 
> I'm particularly interested in WPORV (because I love that property) -- none of the Kauai Marriotts have 1BR options, except for the hotel conversion Kauai Beach Club, so having a true 1BR option will be additive.
> 
> Thanks very much!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



According to these images, a winter 2-bed at WKV will cost 5,400 DPs. If they're only offering 4,050 for that week then there is a differential of 1,350 or 25%. Can this truly be accurate?

For the same time period, SDO will cost just 3,125.


----------



## DanCali

Ken555 said:


> According to these images, a winter 2-bed at WKV will cost 5,400 DPs. If they're only offering 4,050 for that week then there is a differential of 1,350 or 25%. Can this truly be accurate?
> 
> For the same time period, SDO will cost just 3,125.




No - You can't go off the highest point requirement.

A couple of hundred posts ago (maybe more at this point) I did a calculation. You have to take the average required to book weeks 1-21 and 51-52 (Platinum season). That would be the fair value. 4050 is about an 8%-9% haircut....


----------



## Ken555

DanCali said:


> No - You can't go off the highest point requirement.
> 
> A couple of hundred posts ago (maybe more at this point) I did a calculation. You have to take the average required to book weeks 1-21 and 51-52 (Platinum season). That would be the fair value. 4050 is about an 8%-9% haircut....



Ok. That PDF isn't easy to read so when we get the official docs I'll review this again. I'm sure you're correct.


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> This has also been discussed. If I was running the program, I would want to consolidate the networks...but I'm sure there are financial reasons to keep both for now, to the benefit of Marriott.



I may be wrong, but if they consolidate the networks, then mandatory ownerships whether purchased direct or resale would have to be part of that one network. By having both networks along side each other, they can keep resale mandatory only in the VSN. The only way into both would be with another developer purchase. So I agree, keeping them both operating along side each other is a financial benefit to Marriott.


----------



## daviator

DavidnRobin said:


> Not sure about the Stickie on Developer prices, but..,
> 
> WKORVN OF price was $68K - $74K (I know this because we bought and rescinded after finding TUG)
> WKORVN IV was ~$48K (friend bought one even after warning not to - they regret it now)
> 
> WKORV OFD price was ~$65K (I know this because this is what the price the original owner paid for our 2006 resale after finding TUG)
> 
> WPORV price was $48K - $56K (we paid $24K for EOY)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


One more data point: my WKORV-OV (Annual, 2 br lockoff) was $45,000 when I purchased, pre-construction, in 2003.  Of course I received a bunch of Starwood points with the purchase which had substantial value, but I think that's pretty much a given with any developer purchase.


----------



## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> According to these images, a winter 2-bed at WKV will cost 5,400 DPs. If they're only offering 4,050 for that week then there is a differential of 1,350 or 25%. Can this truly be accurate?
> 
> For the same time period, SDO will cost just 3,125.


This would be accurate with how Marriott set up their point charts and what they offer people to elect points. That 5,400 is only the uber peak weeks at WKV. Some of the other weeks are hard to read, but it looks like other Platinum Plus weeks come in under the 4,050. Just how Marriott setup their program and it has no relation to StarOptions.


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> I may be wrong, but if they consolidate the networks, then mandatory ownerships whether purchased direct or resale would have to be part of that one network. By having both networks along side each other, they can keep resale mandatory only in the VSN. The only way into both would be with another developer purchase. So I agree, keeping them both operating along side each other is a financial benefit to Marriott.



You've posited this previously, and I don't agree. They could simply eliminate the SO "club" altogether and then boom - no more mandatory weeks. And...I doubt they would do this since it would piss off the very people that are easy marks buyers for new sales.


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> You've posited this previously, and I don't agree. They could simply eliminate the SO "club" altogether and then boom - no more mandatory weeks. And...I doubt they would do this since it would piss off the very people that are easy marks buyers for new sales.


Then I’m still not understanding The Whole network operator and being part of the networks club. In its current state, the club is the vistana signature network which is set up as an exchange company. The same way the DC is set up. If they eliminated that club and moved developer and retro weeks into a sole Club (the destination club exchange) wouldn’t that force mandatory resale weeks in as well? Either I’m hopeful or I may be a bit getting too into the weeds (not the Smokey or edible kind).


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> Then I’m still not understanding The Whole network operator and being part of the networks club. In its current state, the club is the vistana signature network which is set up as an exchange company. The same way the DC is set up. If they eliminated that club and moved developer and retro weeks into a sole Club (the destination club exchange) wouldn’t that force mandatory resale weeks in as well? Either I’m hopeful or I may be a bit getting too into the weeds (not the Smokey or edible kind).



4/20 was yesterday, so you have no excuse...

The SO "club" is one network. DP is a different network. I don't believe they are contractually obligated to keep the SO "club" at all - they may make whatever changes they want to it, including eliminating it altogether. That is separate and distinct from the MVC DP network.


----------



## ocdb8r

Ken555 said:


> 4/20 was yesterday, so you have no excuse...
> 
> The SO "club" is one network. DP is a different network. I don't believe they are contractually obligated to keep the SO "club" at all - they may make whatever changes they want to it, including eliminating it altogether. That is separate and distinct from the MVC DP network.



I believe this may have been the case BEFORE launch of the various FLEX trusts...but I suspect those trusts somehow codified the existing SO network (at least as regards those who own in the trusts) and thus they may not be able to get rid of the system so easily (again, at least as regards the trusts).

Given the above, if you know you're going to be stuck with some remnant of the SO network, why abolish it for those for whom which it (may be) optional for (e.g. those who own weeks for which there is not a clear deeded right to the "club")?

Finally, even if elimination of the club was "ideal" from an operational and sales perspective, I don't think you'd want to risk alienating all the owners who bought it with the expectation of participating in the SO club.  It's much easier to offer an "optional" entry path into DP points.


----------



## Ken555

ocdb8r said:


> I believe this may have been the case BEFORE launch of the various FLEX trusts...but I suspect those trusts somehow codified the existing SO network (at least as regards those who own in the trusts) and thus they may not be able to get rid of the system so easily (again, at least as regards the trusts).
> 
> Given the above, if you know you're going to be stuck with some remnant of the SO network, why abolish it for those for whom which it (may be) optional for (e.g. those who own weeks for which there is not a clear deeded right to the "club")?
> 
> Finally, even if elimination of the club was "ideal" from an operational and sales perspective, I don't think you'd want to risk alienating all the owners who bought it with the expectation of participating in the SO club.  It's much easier to offer an "optional" entry path into DP points.



I agree, and I've posted similarly... this still doesn't mean they don't have the right to remove it should they choose to do so (at least for deeded weeks, and not Flex...). There's a distinction between what is possible and what is likely.


----------



## VacationForever

Ken555 said:


> I agree, and I've posted similarly... this still doesn't mean they don't have the right to remove it should they choose to do so (at least for deeded weeks, and not Flex...). There's a distinction between what is possible and what is likely.


If you look at your WKV by-laws etc, joining the SVN/VSN is "mandatory" and the description of it being an internal exchange system that you must participate in. MVC cannot do away with SVN/VSN and risk getting a class action lawsuit and clearly would lose.


----------



## Lansdowne

SueDonJ said:


> I think the number per week was increased to 12 in 2021 as a result of the affiliation agreement between the resort and the golf provider being renewed?


Yes, but at Heritage Club, they changed the golf courses at which you can play those rounds.  You used to get 2 rounds at Harbourtown...  Not any more.


----------



## cubigbird

Ken555 said:


> The program we bought into is changing for the worse, and the only way it will remain similar (or improve) for individuals is if you cough up another significant investment.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



And this…..is the whole reason why Marriott bought Vistana, to create value and return for shareholders.  This proves the old TUG adage to be true: Buy where you want to go.


----------



## Ken555

VacationForever said:


> If you look at your WKV by-laws etc, joining the SVN/VSN is "mandatory" and the description of it being an internal exchange system that you must participate in. MVC cannot do away with SVN/VSN and risk getting a class action lawsuit and clearly would lose.



Yes, membership is mandatory but the operator may make whatever changes they want to the "club" including eliminating it altogether. This was discussed at length many years ago on TUG and unless it was misinterpreted, the operator has full control of the program. The consensus at the time was that it would be against their own interests to eliminate it, but now that there is a competing internal trading network the option exists. Naturally, I don't think they would make any such changes and it would likely backfire from angry owners (as you imply). I'm surprised I'm the only TUG member stating this...


----------



## Ken555

cubigbird said:


> And this…..is the whole reason why Marriott bought Vistana, to create value and return for shareholders.



Obviously! Once again, they "bought" Vistana... and Vistana owners need to pay up to use the new and improved network.


----------



## cubigbird

Ken555 said:


> Obviously! Once again, they "bought" Vistana... and Vistana owners need to pay up to use the new and improved network.


The one and only objective.


----------



## Ken555

cubigbird said:


> The one and only objective.



I don't think there was ever any doubt of their goals.


----------



## rcv82

Ken555 said:


> Yes, membership is mandatory but the operator may make whatever changes they want to the "club" including eliminating it altogether. This was discussed at length many years ago on TUG and unless it was misinterpreted, the operator has full control of the program. The consensus at the time was that it would be against their own interests to eliminate it, but now that there is a competing internal trading network the option exists. Naturally, I don't think they would make any such changes and it would likely backfire from angry owners (as you imply). I'm surprised I'm the only TUG member stating this...



I have also stated this. Long-term I wouldn’t be surprised if they get this down to one exchange system. I’m not sure how much legal latitude they have to modify the DC exchange, but I also don’t see anything requiring VSN to stay like it is. The one area that I don’t think they have as much latitude to change is the trust ownerships. I think they have to stay pretty close to “as sold” for at least “home” resort booking. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## cubigbird

Ken555 said:


> I don't think there was ever any doubt of their goals.


Looking forward to hearing owners in updates that spent tens of thousands of dollars, perhaps hundreds, screaming when they are told they have to spend that again.  The amount of trust put in timeshare sales people is astounding.


----------



## 5finny

If they want to gradually get rid of mandatory weeks perhaps a relatively easy way to do so would be to allow existing mandatory owners to join the Marriott Destination Point system at no or a reduced price with a condition that all parties would agree that the "mandatory" benefit would thereafter not pass to or be available to subsequent owners


----------



## VacationForever

5finny said:


> If they want to gradually get rid of mandatory weeks perhaps a relatively easy way to do so would be to allow existing mandatory owners to join the Marriott Destination Point system at no or a reduced price with a condition that all parties would agree that the "mandatory" benefit would thereafter not pass to or be available to subsequent owners


Not really.  If 50% of the owners don't join, then they will continue to access VSN and when they sell their ownership, that VSN right passes down to the buyers.  So you still cannot get rid of VSN for many decades, if ever.


----------



## DanCali

DanCali said:


> You can't go off the highest point requirement.
> 
> A couple of hundred posts ago (maybe more at this point) I did a calculation. You have to take the average required to book weeks 1-21 and 51-52 (Platinum season). That would be the fair value. 4050 is about an 8%-9% haircut....





Ken555 said:


> Ok. That PDF isn't easy to read so when we get the official docs I'll review this again. I'm sure you're correct.



Here is the WKV 2BR Plat example (post 1104) I was referring to where I computed the skim using the blurry pdfs.









						CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
					

Yep.  They told us that non-Nanea and Non-WSJ would be WORSE than this, as in 1:35 or 1:38.    Guess we’ll see when this becomes official.   If true, that would make the “skim” on Vistana close to 30% based on the pictures of the point costs in pictures that have been posted.




					tugbbs.com


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## TravelTime

5finny said:


> If they want to gradually get rid of mandatory weeks perhaps a relatively easy way to do so would be to allow existing mandatory owners to join the Marriott Destination Point system at no or a reduced price with a condition that all parties would agree that the "mandatory" benefit would thereafter not pass to or be available to subsequent owners



This is similar to what Disney did. It makes so much sense. I am hoping this is what they do.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

5finny said:


> If they want to gradually get rid of mandatory weeks perhaps a relatively easy way to do so would be to allow existing mandatory owners to join the Marriott Destination Point system at no or a reduced price with a condition that all parties would agree that the "mandatory" benefit would thereafter not pass to or be available to subsequent owners



I would never agree to these terms because it would kill the resale value of the unit. Units that hold back and keep such benefits would become even more valuable than before.


----------



## Ken555

5finny said:


> If they want to gradually get rid of mandatory weeks perhaps a relatively easy way to do so would be to allow existing mandatory owners to join the Marriott Destination Point system at no or a reduced price with a condition that all parties would agree that the "mandatory" benefit would thereafter not pass to or be available to subsequent owners



That would simply accelerate the predicted devaluation of certain weeks, and lower the resale value of them, assuming the point allocations as stated earlier in this thread are accurate. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ocdb8r

Ken555 said:


> The ability to reserve home resorts is not in question. The ability, long-term, to trade via SOs, is the issue. If more and more opt not to use SOs and use DPs instead then the available units for SOs will diminish and over time encourage owners to do something else with their weeks, such as using them directly, renting, or enrolling their weeks into the DP program. And if you use DPs to trade then it is a huge devaluation over the current trading ability. This is a major change to our ownership, even if it will not impact us for some years.
> 
> Those suggesting SOs will continue to be a viable long-term solution are ignoring the implied concern of a naturally limited inventory system.
> 
> It is quite interesting that some people are advocating the belief that this is anything but a devaluation, even if it will not impact us immediately. The program we bought into is changing for the worse, and the only way it will remain similar (or improve) for individuals is if you cough up another significant investment.



First, I don't get all the doom and gloom.  For every owner that opts not to use SOs, there is one less owner competing for whatever weeks are available via SOs.  This concern only holds water if you believe somehow that some weeks are more valuable than others and there's a devaluation because the more valuable weeks are more likely to opt out of SOs.  Otherwise, as regards the SO program, it's a one for one exchange - for every week that is not traded via SOs, there's a week that is not competing for SO reservations.  In addition, unless you bought in the last 24-36 months, there's been a measurable increase in the overall inventory in the SO world via additions of the Cabo/Kauai/Westin Cancun properties.

Second, your whole premise is based on the assumption that we all had/have some "right" to what weeks stayed within the SO system and which didn't.  If Interval came along and said they'd offer triple deposit credit for Westin Hawaii weeks and only single for Kierland weeks...thereby enticing Westin Hawaii owners not to elect SOs, would there be all this doom and gloom about how the program we bought into was changing?  MVC is not FORCING anyone to participate in the DP program - if some choose to, there clearly is value to some there.

Finally, the statement that this is "anything but a devaluation" comes only from the perspective of someone who has been able to "maximize" value of SO trades.  For every Platinum SDO owner (eligible to participate in the SO program) that was able to trade their week for a week at WKORV, there was a WKORV owner not using their week or trading for something else.  That WKORV owner may see more value in trading via the DP program.  Hell, if I was a WKORV owner that liked to travel in what the DP program has defined as the shoulder or off seasons, I could elect points for my week and trade back in for 8 or 9 nights at my home resort.  Point is, the statement only holds water for those for whom the SO system held good value - just because the SO system was simple, straightforward and assigned the same number of points to a Platinum SDO week as deeded week 52 WKORV week, doesn't mean it was better or more valuable overall.


----------



## dioxide45

5finny said:


> If they want to gradually get rid of mandatory weeks perhaps a relatively easy way to do so would be to allow existing mandatory owners to join the Marriott Destination Point system at no or a reduced price with a condition that all parties would agree that the "mandatory" benefit would thereafter not pass to or be available to subsequent owners


It is called mandatory for a reason. Doing as this suggests would mean it is voluntary. For mandatory Vistana properties, membership in VSN is written into the governing condominium CC&R documents. It isn't something that the owner can opt out of nor opt out of passing on. You hold a deed bound by the CC&R, you have mandatory membership in VSN. The only way to change this is to get a vote from the BOD willing to get a vote from owners. Likely requires a supermajority to pass.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> It is called mandatory for a reason. Doing as this suggests would mean it is voluntary. For mandatory Vistana properties, membership in VSN is written into the governing condominium CC&R documents. It isn't something that the owner can opt out of nor opt out of passing on. You hold a deed bound by the CC&R, you have mandatory membership in VSN. The only way to change this is to get a vote from the BOD willing to get a vote from owners. Likely requires a supermajority to pass.


+1 on this.

I’ll just add that even those units owned by Vistana, the Flex trust (and even the DC trust if they decide to add) would all still be mandatory deeds and could conceivably convert to SO at 8 months. I’m sure DP inventory will be managed well, so they don’t have anything go into the SO period, but it still doesn’t change the underlying nature of the deed.


----------



## sharr7

I've seen a lot of discussion about the MVC 13/12 month booking window and I agree it's not that big of a deal for Home resort reservations in the 12-8 month window. Someone likened it to depositing in interval and I think that was a good comparison - some will remove their week from the VSN that way but it's not "lost" and they're also not competing for VSN reservations.

My question is - at the 8-month mark, when everything converts to SO reservations, what prevents MVC from just pulling all those weeks (or most weeks or most desirable weeks) into the DC exchange for their "original" members? Or overlaying the functionality so that those weeks can be booked through VSN with SO or through MVC with DP?


----------



## DanCali

sharr7 said:


> I've seen a lot of discussion about the MVC 13/12 month booking window and I agree it's not that big of a deal for Home resort reservations in the 12-8 month window. Someone likened it to depositing in interval and I think that was a good comparison - some will remove their week from the VSN that way but it's not "lost" and they're also not competing for VSN reservations.
> 
> My question is - at the 8-month mark, when everything converts to SO reservations, what prevents MVC from just pulling all those weeks (or most weeks or most desirable weeks) into the DC exchange for their "original" members? Or overlaying the functionality so that those weeks can be booked through VSN with SO or through MVC with DP?



Regarding your second point - I don't think something can be in the DC exchange unless it is part of the DC Trust or is an owner actually elects for DC points. With Vistana it was and will likely continue to be automatic - anything not booked at 8 months was in SVN. This seems more like Interval where an owner actively needs to deposit a week. Moreover, with the DC they need to elect point by September or October in the prior year. If I want to use points in 2023, I need to elect by October this year.

Regarding your first point I generally agree but am not clear about the mechanics. Here is a thought experiment....
(1) Suppose a resort has a Platinum season 1-52 Float (say WKORV as an example)
(2) Electing for points doesn't require you to actually reserve a week, you just a elect points and the week goes to the DC exchange
(3) You have 520 Owners elect to convert to DC in a given year

So now we have 520 WKORV weeks in the DC and other owners using DC Points can reserve those at 13 months out. But what weeks can they reserve at 13 months out? Can they all book 4th of July at 13 months out? Can they all reserve New Year's at 13 months out? Or can they just reserve 10 weeks of every week in the year? If there is no pro-rata allocation, I can see a potential problem for home resort reservations if all those 520 deposits allow booking the highest demand weeks (e.g., 4th of July, President's Day, Spring Break) at 13 months out.


----------



## 5finny

dioxide45 said:


> It is called mandatory for a reason. Doing as this suggests would mean it is voluntary. For mandatory Vistana properties, membership in VSN is written into the governing condominium CC&R documents. It isn't something that the owner can opt out of nor opt out of passing on. You hold a deed bound by the CC&R, you have mandatory membership in VSN. The only way to change this is to get a vote from the BOD willing to get a vote from owners. Likely requires a supermajority to pass.


I will concede the point to anyone who has taken the time to delve into those documents-an undertaking I am too lazy to undertake


----------



## DanCali

5finny said:


> I will concede the point to anyone who has taken the time to delve into those documents-an undertaking I am too lazy to undertake



Unless they kill the membership in SVN for everyone at a given resort, then mandatory is mandatory...

_2.1 Membership. Membership in the Club is a condition of ownership of each Club Resort VOI pursuant to the terms of a Club Resort Affiliation Agreement, and is required of all purchasers of Club Resort VOIs. On recording of a deed or a memorandum of contract for deed to a Club Resort VOI, the Club Member is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Club. Pursuant to a Network Affiliation Agreement between Club Operator and Network Operator, a Club Member also is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Network. Membership in the Network is not an appurtenance to VOIs, and automatically terminates if such Club Member’s Home Resort ceases to be a Network Resort.

A purchaser at a non-Club Resort is not automatically a member of the Network. To use and enjoy benefits of membership in the Network, a VOI purchaser must be enrolled by Network Operator, which will require the execution of an Owner Membership Agreement and the payment of any applicable fee, as determined by Network Operator. Only Owners who acquire their Vacation Ownership Interest directly from the Seller of a Network Resort or from resales brokered by an authorized resale company of Seller, a subsidiary or affiliated company of such Seller, or transferees of such Owners by will or intestate succession, or present or future children of such Owners who have otherwise succeeded to their parents’ interest are eligible to become members of Network.._.


*Definitions:*

_Club Resort means a resort that has become affiliated with the Club from time to time pursuant to a Club Resort Affiliation Agreement, and in which membership in the Club is a condition of ownership of a VOI. For a resort in which membership in the Club is a condition of ownership of some but not all VOIs, the term “Club Resort” refers only to Club Resort VOIs in such resort.

Club Resort Affiliation Agreement means a Vistana Signature Club Resort Affiliation Agreement between Club Operator and the developer or association for a resort under which the accommodations and facilities of that resort are included in the Club, such resort becomes a Club Resort and some or all owners of vacation ownership interests in the resort become Club Members as a condition of ownership.

Club Member means an Owner in a Club Resort.

Club Operator means the entity, as named in the Club Documents, which provides certain services for the Club,
including the operation of a reservation system for the Club.

Network Operator means Vistana Signature Network, Inc., a Delaware corporation, its successors and permitted assigns. Note that Vistana Signature Network, Inc. was formerly known as Starwood Vacation Exchange Company, Inc. and may be referred to by such former name in various documents and agreements.

Network means the Vistana Signature Network , the service name given to the variety of exchange and reservation services and vacation and travel benefits currently offered and the restrictions currently imposed by Network Operator for Network Resorts. The Network is an exchange program offered by Network Operator, an exchange company. Network Members reserve the use of the Units through the Network, which may or may not include access to an External Exchange Program, as set forth in the applicable Network Documents. _

_Network Affiliation Agreement means an agreement setting forth the terms and conditions that Network Operator establishes from time to time, to make membership in the Network available to owners in Network Resorts._

_Network Resort means a resort that is affiliated with the Network. Unless the context provides otherwise, Network Resort shall mean both a Network Points Resort and a Network Weeks Resort._


----------



## sharr7

DanCali said:


> Regarding your second point - I don't think something can be in the DC exchange unless it is part of the DC Trust or is an owner actually elects for DC points. With Vistana it was and will likely continue to be automatic - anything not booked at 8 months was in SVN. This seems more like Interval where an owner actively needs to deposit a week. Moreover, with the DC they need to elect point by September or October in the prior year. If I want to use points in 2023, I need to elect by October this year.
> 
> Regarding your first point I generally agree but am not clear about the mechanics. Here is a thought experiment....
> (1) Suppose a resort has a Platinum season 1-52 Float (say WKORV as an example)
> (2) Electing for points doesn't require you to actually reserve a week, you just a elect points and the week goes to the DC exchange
> (3) You have 520 Owners elect to convert to DC in a given year
> 
> So now we have 520 WKORV weeks in the DC and other owners using DC Points can reserve those at 13 months out. But what weeks can they reserve at 13 months out? Can they all book 4th of July at 13 months out? Can they all reserve New Year's at 13 months out? Or can they just reserve 10 weeks of every week in the year? If there is no pro-rata allocation, I can see a potential problem for home resort reservations if all those 520 deposits allow booking the highest demand weeks (e.g., 4th of July, President's Day, Spring Break) at 13 months out.


Good point. The week assignment mechanics are important. Do we know how it works for II deposits?

I'd guess they'd go by your underlying week (even floats have some week/unit assigned for recordkeeping right?). But maybe not.


----------



## Ken555

ocdb8r said:


> First, I don't get all the doom and gloom. For every owner that opts not to use SOs, there is one less owner competing for whatever weeks are available via SOs. This concern only holds water if you believe somehow that some weeks are more valuable than others and there's a devaluation because the more valuable weeks are more likely to opt out of SOs. Otherwise, as regards the SO program, it's a one for one exchange - for every week that is not traded via SOs, there's a week that is not competing for SO reservations. In addition, unless you bought in the last 24-36 months, there's been a measurable increase in the overall inventory in the SO world via additions of the Cabo/Kauai/Westin Cancun properties.
> 
> Second, your whole premise is based on the assumption that we all had/have some "right" to what weeks stayed within the SO system and which didn't. If Interval came along and said they'd offer triple deposit credit for Westin Hawaii weeks and only single for Kierland weeks...thereby enticing Westin Hawaii owners not to elect SOs, would there be all this doom and gloom about how the program we bought into was changing? MVC is not FORCING anyone to participate in the DP program - if some choose to, there clearly is value to some there.
> 
> Finally, the statement that this is "anything but a devaluation" comes only from the perspective of someone who has been able to "maximize" value of SO trades. For every Platinum SDO owner (eligible to participate in the SO program) that was able to trade their week for a week at WKORV, there was a WKORV owner not using their week or trading for something else. That WKORV owner may see more value in trading via the DP program. Hell, if I was a WKORV owner that liked to travel in what the DP program has defined as the shoulder or off seasons, I could elect points for my week and trade back in for 8 or 9 nights at my home resort. Point is, the statement only holds water for those for whom the SO system held good value - just because the SO system was simple, straightforward and assigned the same number of points to a Platinum SDO week as deeded week 52 WKORV week, doesn't mean it was better or more valuable overall.



Haha! Whatever gave you the impression I was ever discussing the perspective of someone whom was not trying to maximize use of the program? My examples earlier of my successes over many years should illustrate the reason I am an owner and how I derive value from it. 

Obviously circumstances may change, and I have posted along with many of you about this possibility for well over a decade. I’ve also suggested many times that if the program becomes unviable then I will simply find something else. Nevertheless, I think my points are valid… if weeks leave the program for whatever reason, then the possibility of worthwhile trades (from my perspective) may diminish. Not sure why you think my points are somehow invalid or inaccurate, though you may not agree with them…


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Venter

I think people who make claim to mandatory rights are doolally.  The documents are written ambiguously and not in such a way that it can be interpreted in perpetuaty.  There's mention of agreements etc. We do not have access to those written agreements between clubs, network operators, management company etc.  It may all just say that the agreement can be cancelled by either party for no reason.  I am no lawyer but cynical enough to know that holes can be shot in most contracts.  I also do not think Starwood would have bound themselves to terms that they cannot get out of at all 

Sorry, I do not really think people are crazy.


----------



## dioxide45

Venter said:


> I think people who make claim to mandatory rights are doolally.  The documents are written ambiguously and not in such a way that it can be interpreted in perpetuaty.  There's mention of agreements etc. We do not have access to those written agreements between clubs, network operators, management company etc.  It may all just say that the agreement can be cancelled by either party for no reason.  I am no lawyer but cynical enough to know that holes can be shot in most contracts.  I also do not think Starwood would have bound themselves to terms that they cannot get out of at all
> 
> Sorry, I do not really think people are crazy.


I don't think there is any argument that they can or can't abolish VSN completely. Just that they can't abolish mandatory VSN at those mandatory resorts. If they could have done it, they would have done it long ago. Vistana (then Starwood) realized fairly early that writing VSN membership into the condo documents was a mistake. Thus why they stopped doing it. Resort CC&R document changes require a vote by the owners.


----------



## Eric B

DanCali said:


> Unless they kill the membership in SVN for everyone at a given resort, then mandatory is mandatory...
> 
> _2.1 Membership. Membership in the Club is a condition of ownership of each Club Resort VOI pursuant to the terms of a Club Resort Affiliation Agreement, and is required of all purchasers of Club Resort VOIs. On recording of a deed or a memorandum of contract for deed to a Club Resort VOI, the Club Member is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Club. Pursuant to a Network Affiliation Agreement between Club Operator and Network Operator, a Club Member also is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Network. Membership in the Network is not an appurtenance to VOIs, and automatically terminates if such Club Member’s Home Resort ceases to be a Network Resort.
> 
> A purchaser at a non-Club Resort is not automatically a member of the Network. To use and enjoy benefits of membership in the Network, a VOI purchaser must be enrolled by Network Operator, which will require the execution of an Owner Membership Agreement and the payment of any applicable fee, as determined by Network Operator. Only Owners who acquire their Vacation Ownership Interest directly from the Seller of a Network Resort or from resales brokered by an authorized resale company of Seller, a subsidiary or affiliated company of such Seller, or transferees of such Owners by will or intestate succession, or present or future children of such Owners who have otherwise succeeded to their parents’ interest are eligible to become members of Network.._.
> 
> 
> *Definitions:*
> 
> _Club Resort means a resort that has become affiliated with the Club from time to time pursuant to a Club Resort Affiliation Agreement, and in which membership in the Club is a condition of ownership of a VOI. For a resort in which membership in the Club is a condition of ownership of some but not all VOIs, the term “Club Resort” refers only to Club Resort VOIs in such resort.
> 
> Club Member means an Owner in a Club Resort.
> 
> Club Operator means the entity, as named in the Club Documents, which provides certain services for the Club,
> including the operation of a reservation system for the Club.
> 
> Network Operator means Vistana Signature Network, Inc., a Delaware corporation, its successors and permitted assigns. Note that Vistana Signature Network, Inc. was formerly known as Starwood Vacation Exchange Company, Inc. and may be referred to by such former name in various documents and agreements.
> 
> Network means the Vistana Signature Network , the service name given to the variety of exchange and reservation services and vacation and travel benefits currently offered and the restrictions currently imposed by Network Operator for Network Resorts. The Network is an exchange program offered by Network Operator, an exchange company. Network Members reserve the use of the Units through the Network, which may or may not include access to an External Exchange Program, as set forth in the applicable Network Documents. _
> 
> _Network Affiliation Agreement means an agreement setting forth the terms and conditions that Network Operator establishes from time to time, to make membership in the Network available to owners in Network Resorts._



If it's helpful, here are the provisions from the 2015 VSN Guide that I think would be pertinent to the DC combination issue:

*Definitions:*

_External Exchange Company means any company that provides services to the Network or to Network Members
under an External Exchange Program.

External Exchange Program means the contractual arrangement pursuant to which a Network Member may
exchange the use of a Vacation Period, under certain conditions, for the use of accommodations in resorts other than
Network Resorts.

Network means the Vistana Signature Network , the service name given to the variety of exchange and reservation
services and vacation and travel benefits currently offered and the restrictions currently imposed by Network
Operator for Network Resorts. The Network is an exchange program offered by Network Operator, an exchange
company. *Network Members reserve the use of the Units through the Network, which may or may not include
access to an External Exchange Program, as set forth in the applicable Network Documents.* The Network is not a
legal entity or association of any kind. Note that the Network was formerly known as Starwood Vacation Network
and may be referred to by such former name in various documents and agreements. Also note that the Network
was formerly known by the acronym SVN and may be referred to by such former acronym in various documents
and agreements.  _(Emphasis added.)

*[Provisions]*

_[4.2.]c. Bulk Banking for Anticipated External and Starwood Preferred Guest Program Exchanges. Network
Operator has the right, but not the obligation, to reserve a number of Floating Vacation Periods from time to time at
any time after the beginning of the Home Resort Reservation Period, and any unreserved Vacation Period after the
Home Resort Reservation Period, for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External
Exchange Program on behalf of Network Members *based on Network Operator's determination, in its sole discretion,
of anticipated Network Member demand to access an External Exchange Program *or the Starwood Preferred Guest
Program. Network Members may request an external exchange company assignment based upon the resort, unit
and season being assigned by the Network Member for an external exchange request. _ (Emphasis added.)

_[4.2.]d. Network Float Period. The Network Float Period begins eight (8) months prior to the Check-in Day for a
given Vacation Period and ends sixty (60) days prior to the Check-in Day. It follows the Home Resort Reservation
Period for a given Vacation Period and precedes the Network Priority Period. During the Network Float Period, all
Network Members must compete with other Network Members for reservations on a first-come, first-served basis for
a reservation for any available Vacation Period that the Network Member has sufficient StarOptions to reserve. Due
to the automatic reservation of Reserved Periods as described in Section 4.2.a (2), the availability of such Vacation
Periods may be limited.

*Network Members also will compete with Network Operator for reservations during the Network Float Period
with respect to Network Operator's rights to make reservations for bulk banking for external exchange and*_
*anticipating Network Member demand to access the Starwood Preferred Guest Program as discussed above. *(Emphasis added.)

There are other provisions that are unique to the External Exchange Program as it is implemented with Interval, but my take away is that Marriott as the Network Operator will have the discretion to determine what availability is reserved and allocated to the External Exchange Program, which could be Interval and the DC, but that determination is supposed to be based on anticipated Network Member demand for access to the External Exchange Program.  Since this will just be enrolled weeks owned by Network Members, the choice of what to deposit would probably be made to get the proper number of points from available weeks to satisfy the deposit choices made by the enrolled folks as that should probably be a zero sum game.  If they were to deposit all of the high demand weeks in a season at a resort, there would be too many points allocated for Vistana owners and the books wouldn't balance.  The skim could make up for some of an off balance condition but they'll have to have some guidelines for the combined system and we'll be able to see what they say they will base those deposits on - the only unknown would be what they do with developer-owned VOIs.

There's also this additional provision in the Miscellaneous section:

_8.4 Special Exchange Programs. Network Operator reserves the right, from time to time, to enter into special
exchange relationships with any entity other than an External Exchange Company pursuant to which Network
Members will have access to selected non-Network resorts and non-Network owners will have access to Network
accommodations after the Home Resort Reservation Period. Any special exchange programs will be governed by
reservation rules and regulations similar to those governing an External Exchange Program._

If that's what they're basing the DC enrollment eligibility on, it's worded in such a way that Network Members all get access and mandator resale owners (i.e., owners at a Club Resort that didn't purchase from the Network Operator) as well as voluntary owners that purchased a non-Club Resort from the Network Operator are all Network Members.  I'm hoping that's how it works out, but we'll see since they have the power to change the rules.


----------



## remowidget

While I am sure that salespeople hate mandatory resorts, I don't understand why anyone else in Vistana or Marriott would really care. It's a business situation that exists. It is what it is. They only care about selling new products. That is how they make money. 

I own no resale and purchased my time about 12 years ago, but from my perspective the only two Mandatory resorts worth purchasing, for the staroptions, are in Orlando and Kierland. The others have maintenance fees that are too high unless you primarily want to go there. Staroptions for 2/3 of the mandatory resorts are really just a minor added feature, IMHO. 

All of this integration(it isn't a merger) talk has me considering buying some resale. While I am not the expert many of you are, I do feel pretty well informed. That said, if I were to buy today it wouldn't be a mandatory resort.


----------



## ocdb8r

Ken555 said:


> Nevertheless, I think my points are valid… if weeks leave the program for whatever reason, then the possibility of worthwhile trades (from my perspective) may diminish. Not sure why you think my points are somehow invalid or inaccurate, though you may not agree with them…



My intention wasn't to invalidate your points, but rather to put them in perspective (and I meant no offense).  In fact, I was more responding to your assertion:



Ken555 said:


> It is quite interesting that some people are advocating the belief that this is *anything but a devaluation*, even if it will not impact us immediately. The program we bought into is changing for the worse, and the only way it will remain similar (or improve) for individuals is if you cough up another significant investment.



...it felt like you were invalidating thoughts that anyone else had that the option to trade into DPs could be a good thing.


----------



## Kildahl

remowidget said:


> While I am sure that salespeople hate mandatory resorts, I don't understand why anyone else in Vistana or Marriott would really care. It's a business situation that exists. It is what it is. They only care about selling new products. That is how they make money.
> 
> I own no resale and purchased my time about 12 years ago, but from my perspective the only two Mandatory resorts worth purchasing, for the staroptions, are in Orlando and Kierland. The others have maintenance fees that are too high unless you primarily want to go there. Staroptions for 2/3 of the mandatory resorts are really just a minor added feature, IMHO.
> 
> All of this integration(it isn't a merger) talk has me considering buying some resale. While I am not the expert many of you are, I do feel pretty well informed. That said, if I were to buy today it wouldn't be a mandatory resort.


Did you mean to say you wouldn't buy a unit at a  _voluntary _resort?


----------



## DanCali

remowidget said:


> I own no resale and purchased my time about 12 years ago, but from my perspective the only two Mandatory resorts worth purchasing, for the staroptions, are in Orlando and Kierland. The others have maintenance fees that are too high unless you primarily want to go there. Staroptions for 2/3 of the mandatory resorts are really just a minor added feature, IMHO.



There are other factors to consider, IMO

Are maintenance fees of $2500 on Maui "too high" if the rental value of a week is $4500-$5000? Would you buy such a week if it was $10K? Would you still buy it if it was $30K?

And if the rental value math for Princeville were similar, would you pay more for a week with or without Staroptions?

There are multiple factors that go into the decision to buy a week. Not everyone cares about the same things but to me rental values matter a lot, because it's an alternative to using it. When considering conversion to things like cruises and such, I don't look at maintenance fees vs cruise value, I look at rental value vs cruise value. Maintenance fees are already paid and don't really matter. 

I would be much more likely to buy a Maui week over an Orlando week because of rental value (relative to MF), despite perhaps an inferior SO/MF ratio. I can't rent Staroptions (at least not directly), but I can rent the timeshare.


----------



## Ken555

ocdb8r said:


> ...it felt like you were invalidating thoughts that anyone else had that the option to trade into DPs could be a good thing.



Not at all. Others had already stated how they thought trading via DPs would be beneficial to them. I saw no need to repeat what had already been posted in that regard, especially since I had little interest in that option given the fact that I would not be able to use DPs to trade to the resorts I have already been trading to successfully for 15+ years via SOs (once again, the devaluation).


----------



## ocdb8r

sharr7 said:


> My question is - at the 8-month mark, when everything converts to SO reservations, what prevents MVC from just pulling *all those weeks (or most weeks or most desirable weeks)* into the DC exchange for their "original" members? Or overlaying the functionality so that those weeks can be booked through VSN with SO or through MVC with DP?



I think Eric B's post is helpful - clearly there are SOME restrictions but there is also clearly plenty of latitude to "cherry pick".  That said, again, I followed the MVC conversion to DPs very closely as I was considering picking up a week.  All the concerns there made me hold off....and since I've gone back and read through some general threads (when Vistana was purchased by MVC), I've been pleasantly surprised that it doesn't appear MVC have used their "power" for much bad.  In fact, I think "skim" is part of what makes the system work.  It reduces some demand, such that MVC can massage availability a bit.  Sure, not all owners are happy and there are clearly time when availability is an issue (holiday weeks...etc) BUT those issues exist now in SVN (and in every network) and I don't see too many MVC DP owners super unsatisfied.

All of that said, it still gives me pause it is a bit "opaque" and I have no idea if MVCs actions as regards how it moves weeks around the systems is "fair" or within the rules.  It seems totally "un-auditable" and clearly too complex for any single or group of owners to "check" so it does leave a lot up for them to "self police".


----------



## Ken555

DanCali said:


> I would be much more likely to buy a Maui week over an Orlando week because of rental value (relative to MF), despite perhaps an inferior SO/MF ratio. I can't rent Staroptions (at least not directly), but I can rent the timeshare.



FWIW, I doubt I would ever own an Orlando week ever again for several reasons not least that Orlando is overbuilt and easy to rent via II or elsewhere, and super easy to trade into.

I would similarly not buy in Maui since I find the County actions against timeshares reprehensible. I'll trade into Maui, I'll visit Maui, and I will spend money in Maui...but I won't own a timeshare there. I would be much more inclined to buy a condo or house on Maui instead, if I was to buy there at all (and I doubt I would spend the months every year to justify such a purchase).


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> I would never agree to these terms because it would kill the resale value of the unit. Units that hold back and keep such benefits would become even more valuable than before.



The way Disney did it, no one had a choice so you could not “agree” to the terms. Disney dictated. Disney said if you sold your contract after the cut off date, the new owners could still trade in the old system but not in the new system for any future properties DVC built. MVC could do something based on the latest DVC iteration of the resale model. I am not speculating anymore as to what they could do since it just upsets people. At the moment, there is no reason to worry because MVC has said they are not taking SOs away.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

TravelTime said:


> The way Disney did it, no one had a choice so you could not “agree” to the terms. Disney dictated. Disney said if you sold your contract after the cut off date, the new owners could still trade in the old system but not in the new system for any future properties DVC built. MVC could do something based on the latest DVC iteration of the resale model. I am not speculating anymore as to what they could do since it just upsets people. At the moment, there is no reason to worry because MVC has said they are not taking SOs away.



Wow what Disney did was harsh. But these could do this because they are RTU.

I am not sure it would be as easy for mandatory SVN because resale terms are embedded into the deeds = lawsuits. This is why all the TS companies are pushing for points and land trusts because they can make rule changes like Disney's much more easily without the threat of lawsuits and without the oversight of state landholder protections.


----------



## remowidget

Kildahl said:


> Did you mean to say you wouldn't buy a unit at a  _voluntary _resort?


I would purchase a voluntary resort. Less money, less maintenance. However, I already have Staroptions. Just saying there are other points of view.


----------



## Ken555

remowidget said:


> I would purchase a voluntary resort. Less money, less maintenance. However, I already have Staroptions. Just saying there are other points of view.



This would be to use at that voluntary resort, or trade it via II, etc? 

Certainly there are many ways to use your ownership, and no one "correct" method.


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> Wow what Disney did was harsh. But these could do this because they are RTU.
> 
> I am not sure it would be as easy for mandatory SVN because resale terms are embedded into the deeds = lawsuits. This is why all the TS companies are pushing for points and land trusts because they can make rule changes like Disney's much more easily without the threat of lawsuits and without the oversight of state landholder protections.



Disney has been tightening their resale rules for years. I think this latest change was to minimize the resale market value and encourage direct sales. I owned Disney at the time. I was a DVC owner when they changed their rules so my contracts were grandfathered in. 

Marriott also tightened their resale rules in 2010. So who knows what is really going to happen or what is really the case legally. I do not know for sure since I was not a MVC owner in 2010, but someone else may be able to comment on whether the resale values plunged after 2010 due to this change. Also wondering if there were any lawsuits then since MVC’s change probably affected the value of reselling weeks contracts.


----------



## remowidget

T





DanCali said:


> There are other factors to consider, IMO
> 
> Are maintenance fees of $2500 on Maui "too high" if the rental value of a week is $4500-$5000? Would you buy such a week if it was $10K? Would you still buy it if it was $30K?
> 
> And if the rental value math for Princeville were similar, would you pay more for a week with or without Staroptions?
> 
> There are multiple factors that go into the decision to buy a week. Not everyone cares about the same things but to me rental values matter a lot, because it's an alternative to using it. When considering conversion to things like cruises and such, I don't look at maintenance fees vs cruise value, I look at rental value vs cruise value. Maintenance fees are already paid and don't really matter.
> 
> I would be much more likely to buy a Maui week over an Orlando week because of rental value (relative to MF), despite perhaps an inferior SO/MF ratio. I can't rent Staroptions (at least not directly), but I can rent the timeshare.


That makes sense if you are going to rent it, but we use our time. Also, we do t really want to go to Maui. Too crowded and expensive.


----------



## Red elephant

DanCali said:


> Regarding your second point - I don't think something can be in the DC exchange unless it is part of the DC Trust or is an owner actually elects for DC points. With Vistana it was and will likely continue to be automatic - anything not booked at 8 months was in SVN. This seems more like Interval where an owner actively needs to deposit a week. Moreover, with the DC they need to elect point by September or October in the prior year. If I want to use points in 2023, I need to elect by October this year.
> 
> Regarding your first point I generally agree but am not clear about the mechanics. Here is a thought experiment....
> (1) Suppose a resort has a Platinum season 1-52 Float (say WKORV as an example)
> (2) Electing for points doesn't require you to actually reserve a week, you just a elect points and the week goes to the DC exchange
> (3) You have 520 Owners elect to convert to DC in a given year
> 
> So now we have 520 WKORV weeks in the DC and other owners using DC Points can reserve those at 13 months out. But what weeks can they reserve at 13 months out? Can they all book 4th of July at 13 months out? Can they all reserve New Year's at 13 months out? Or can they just reserve 10 weeks of every week in the year? If there is no pro-rata allocation, I can see a potential problem for home resort reservations if all those 520 deposits allow booking the highest demand weeks (e.g., 4th of July, President's Day, Spring Break) at 13 months out.


This is the question of the day!!! It seems like people will be booking home resort usage and electing conversion to DC points at the same time the previous year . So anyone trying to book home resort use after October might find it difficult if all the good weeks have been allocated to the DC trust. So confusing.


----------



## remowidget

Ken555 said:


> This would be to use at that voluntary resort, or trade it via II, etc?
> 
> Certainly there are many ways to use your ownership, and no one "correct" method.


Yes, I would use or trade through ii


----------



## TravelTime

remowidget said:


> I would purchase a voluntary resort. Less money, less maintenance. However, I already have Staroptions. Just saying there are other points of view.



I agree there are many POVs. I own both Vistana mandatory (WKOVRN 2 BR OF) and MVC DPs and enrolled weeks. I prefer MVC over Vistana for many reasons. I would really like it if MVC would allow me to convert my WKOVRN for DPs for low/no cost as long as I was grandfathered in before they ended SOs for resale contracts going forward. The conversion rate for WKOVRN would allow me to get 2+ weeks at great locations for the 1 week I own now. I would not care if the value of my Vistana contract went down if this scenario happened bc I would get so much more value out of MVC DPs. 

I suspect the value of a Maui OF resort would not decline too much even if SOs were eliminated going forward. Like someone said earlier, Maui and a few other places have high MFs and the value of using SOs to exchange is not all that great. So I suspect people who buy in Maui buy to stay there or they rent the years they do not go. That is what I did in 2021. I did not go to Maui so I rented my week. I did not want to convert to SOs because of the restrictions on using SOs and the limited places in Vistana that it would make sense for me to visit based on my high MFs.

Someone else said that they think it is unfair that some Vistana resorts are getting better conversion rates than others. To me it is fair. If you bought a mandatory resort just for SOs at a low MF resort in a moderately desirable location, then why should MVC value it the same as highly desirable locations? It would be hard to get someone to pay 8000 points to stay in Orlando or Scottsdale but very common in Maui. Conversions rates and DP cost go hand in hand.

Another person compared the cash rate to go to the Westin hotel in Maui vs Scottsdale. That is not how MVC values resorts. It assigns a DP value and gives a DP conversion rate and they are hand in hand. Like I said above, it is fair because if they give you fewer DPs, it is also less expensive to book in that same resort. So in reality, they are charging DP owners less for the resorts that get fewer DPs. The thing is…Vistana owners with these low cost resorts are not happy that people who are buying into or enrolling in the MVC program can book at a lower DP cost.


----------



## remowidget

Red elephant said:


> This is the question of the day!!! It seems like people will be booking home resort usage and electing conversion to DC points at the same time the previous year . So anyone trying to book home resort use after October might find it difficult if all the good weeks have been allocated to the DC trust. So confusing.


If you want a specific week, book at one year. Don't worry about the rest.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> I would really like it if MVC would allow me to convert my WKOVRN for DPs for low/no cost as long as I was grandfathered in before they ended SOs for resale contracts going forward. The conversion rate for WKOVRN would allow me to get 2+ weeks at great locations for the 1 week I own now. I would not care if the value of my Vistana contract went down if this scenario happened bc I would get so much more value out of MVC DPs.



Look at it this way, if they did what you are wishfully thinking the resale value of your WKORVN OF would drop by about $15K (since future resale buyers would have no SOs and no DPs), so think Princeville resale values.

So, if they don't do that "nuclear option" you should be ok with paying an enrollment fee of around $15K... Or you can retro it today for $10K at any Vistana sales office.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> The thing is…Vistana owners with these low cost resorts are not happy that people who are buying into or enrolling in the MVC program can book at a lower DP cost.



I am not happy because if I elected to enroll and use DPs I would not be able to trade into the resorts I have been able to for 15+ years.


----------



## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> I am not happy because if I elected to enroll and use DPs I would not be able to trade into the resorts I have been able to for 15+ years.


Unless inventory drops significantly for those resorts in VSN, if you want to go to those same resorts you would simply not elect to use DPs and book with VSN. Using DPs would be an annual choice, not a permanent election. Unfortunately we don't know how much inventory will be impacted by the new program.


----------



## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> Unless inventory drops significantly for those resorts in VSN, if you want to go to those same resorts you would simply not elect to use DPs and book with VSN. Using DPs would be an annual choice, not a permanent election. Unfortunately we don't know how much inventory will be impacted by the new program.



Yes. We’re just repeating ourselves now…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

I just looked to consider switching my home resort week at WKOVRN 2BR OF from April 1st to April 8th. It is booked. Nothing even when I put in flexible check in date. So how can anyone say VSE is that great if I can’t get into my home resort just 2 weeks after the booking window opened? Fortunately I was online right when my home resort booking period opened at 12 months and got it. I looked at every week in March also just in case it is booked because of Easter. Nope, nothing available. Even week of Jan 7th, traditionally a slow week since it is right after Christmas/New Years. Nope, nothing then either.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> I just looked to consider switching my home resort week at WKOVRN 2BR OF from April 1st to April 8th. It is booked. Nothing even when I put in flexible check in date. So how can anyone say VSE is that great if I can’t get into my home resort just 2 weeks after the booking window opened? Fortunately I was online right when my home resort booking period opened at 12 months and got it. I looked at every week in March also just in case it is booked because of Easter. Nope, nothing available. Even week of Jan 7th, traditionally a slow week since it is right after Christmas/New Years. Nope, nothing then either.


Most talking about using VSE are probably not booking prime season. The issue with Maui, and Hawaii in general, is that the entire year gets the same amount of StarOptions and thus also the same amount of DPs. So many owners may elect Club Points to book those cheaper times of the year on the DC Point Charts. VSN somewhat protects against this, but DC points could pilfer those lower cost weeks.


----------



## pchung6

TravelTime said:


> I just looked to consider switching my home resort week at WKOVRN 2BR OF from April 1st to April 8th. It is booked. Nothing even when I put in flexible check in date. So how can anyone say VSE is that great if I can’t get into my home resort just 2 weeks after the booking window opened? Fortunately I was online right when my home resort booking period opened at 12 months and got it. I looked at every week in March also just in case it is booked because of Easter. Nope, nothing available. Even week of Jan 7th, traditionally a slow week since it is right after Christmas/New Years. Nope, nothing then either.



[Perhaps this is a joke, but soliciting is not permitted in the discussion forums.]


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> Look at it this way, if they did what you are wishfully thinking the resale value of your WKORVN OF would drop by about $15K (since future resale buyers would have no SOs and no DPs), so think Princeville resale values.
> 
> So, if they don't do that "nuclear option" you should be ok with paying an enrollment fee of around $15K... Or you can retro it today for $10K at any Vistana sales office.



I will not pay to enroll my Vistana week but I would get so much value with 8300 DPs compared to 176K SOs. So I am just saying I do not care of the value of that week goes to zero. It’s a sunk cost at this point. I doubt it will plunge since MOC OF 2 BR is still expensive and sells for about the same as WKOVRN. This is just what I prefer. I understand many Vistana owners have different preferences. That is fine.

Princeville is not that great and it’s easy to get with SOs so it is not comparable. It has no beach so it’s basically a hotel with a pool. It used to have the shuttle to the beach at St Regis (renamed to something else). At least then it had easy beach access.  Poipu is much better for both location, weather and having a beach right there. From what I know, Poipu is awarding more DPs than Princeville and it will cost less correspondingly to book at Princeville using DPs. I have not seen the chart for Princeville but I have read about what people are saying in this thread about Princeville. Princeville may become more popular with DPs if the DP cost is a lot lower than Poipu. It is a very nice resort IMHO. Just do not like the lack of beach access. I am not into walking a mile to get to the beach or walking down slippery steps. I also recall even when there was shuttle access, the beach chairs for Princeville owners/renters was minimal. 

All that said, if we go to Kauai, we might consider a split stay with Poipu but we would not go just to stay at the Westin Princeville. I actually used to own Westin Princeville week 51 but sold it back to Marriott. I just not want to pay MFs on a voluntary resorts that I did not visit much if at all and I am not really into renting except as a last resort. I rented my WKOVRN in 2021 because I was not ready to sell it yet but I am still considering selling of MVC does not allow low/no cost enrollment. I lucked out with Westin Princeville in that I only paid $1500 for that week resale and I sold it back for $2000 (maybe a little more, hard to remember) quickly and easily. But with closing costs, it was either a wash or small loss. I never actually used it. I bought it and changed my mind within months.

All of this is just my opinion and preferences. I know many Vistana owners have difference preferences. That is okay. I just think there must be many more Vistana resale owners who would love the option to convert MVC DPs even if it means the resale value of the resort goes down somewhat. I suspect mainly Maui owners would like this since MVC told me I would get 8300+ per week. With that, I can get 2 weeks or more in a 2BR OF at many other MVC resorts. That is a much better value than what I have now. Maybe that is why they were trying to get me to pay $15K for 1000 DPs plus enrolling my week (5200 DPs). That came out to approx approx $5.75 pp but I do not want to outlay $15K after paying $12,500 plus closing costs already esp since I can already use SOs if I want to trade to another resort and I already have DPs to use everywhere else. If I had an annual and they allowed enrollment for $15K, I think I might do it for 9200 DPs annually. But not for 5200 EOY. (My exact numbers may be off a little.)


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> Most talking about using VSE are probably not booking prime season. The issue with Maui, and Hawaii in general, is that the entire year gets the same amount of StarOptions and thus also the same amount of DPs. So many owners may elect Club Points to book those cheaper times of the year on the DC Point Charts. VSN somewhat protects against this, but DC points could pilfer those lower cost weeks.



I get it but as an owner of WKOVRN, I would expect to get almost any week I want at…or close to 12 months out. If people do not own at a specific resort, then it makes total sense the best weeks at hardest to book locations would be taken by the 8 month mark. Not sure why they would complain as a non-owner. Exchanging with SOs into a resort you do not own is a privilege and IMO should not be viewed as an entitlement if you are not an owner.


----------



## TravelTime

pchung6 said:


> [Perhaps this is a joke, but soliciting is not permitted in the discussion forums.]



Haaaa…How was that soliciting? I said it is hard to book a week at my home resort near the 12 month mark. Is your comment a joke?

I do recall in one comment that I said I was considering selling my week but I was waiting to see what the integration was. Maybe you are referring to that comment? I can’t find the comment or I would delete it now if I said it. Anyway, I do not see that as a solicitation since I would not sell to anyone on TUG and no one here needs to buy from me since there are many similar weeks on Redweek. Plus I am not selling right now anyway and I made that clear in the comment. My point has been that Vistana is not my favorite program compared to MVC. That’s it.


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> Look at it this way, if they did what you are wishfully thinking the resale value of your WKORVN OF would drop by about $15K (since future resale buyers would have no SOs and no DPs), so think Princeville resale values.
> 
> So, if they don't do that "nuclear option" you should be ok with paying an enrollment fee of around $15K... Or you can retro it today for $10K at any Vistana sales office.



I did not realize I could retro it for $10K. Interesting option. I might consider that after I know what the new integrated program is like. I do like getting 8300+ DPs but still now sure I want more out of pocket expenses.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> I did not realize I could retro it for $10K. Interesting option. I might consider that after I know what the new integrated program is like. I do like getting 8300+ DPs but still now sure I want more out of pocket expenses.



The retro with require you to buy a bunch of flex points. By the time you know the details of the new program, there may not be any more opportunity to retro with Vistana as they may be doing only destination points by then. 

Of course there is still the speculation that mandatory resorts will be allowed into the DC, so it may not be necessary at all…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> The retro with require you to buy a bunch of flex points. By the time you know the details of the new program, there may not be any more opportunity to retro with Vistana as they may be doing only destination points by then.
> 
> Of course there is still the speculation that mandatory resorts will be allowed into the DC, so it may not be necessary at all…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Oh okay. I doubt I would do that. Like I said, I do not want more cash outlay right now. I already have trouble using what I own.


----------



## remowidget

.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> I will not pay to enroll my Vistana week but I would get so much value with 8300 DPs compared to 176K SOs.



Objectively, the true benefit of your week is that you have an ocean front unit in Maui. The SOs are somewhat meaningless since anything would be a trade "down" for you. Of course, you seem to think there is more benefit with DPs...and you can certainly go for a longer period of time (I believe) with the DPs instead of using your week...but I doubt you would get as nice a unit with as nice a view and have it be ocean front anywhere else.

But you keep proving the point that timeshares have many ways to use, and it's not a one size fits all proposition. Use it as best you can for your own purposes! No matter what, I hope you enjoy it.

And next time you're in Maui be sure to check out the reef three feet out by the resort!


----------



## rickandcindy23

CalGalTraveler said:


> I would never agree to these terms because it would kill the resale value of the unit. Units that hold back and keep such benefits would become even more valuable than before.


I agree.  I would never devalue our Westin weeks by moving them to anything Marriott.  I wish they would just leave the systems separate.  This is such a crazy idea to me.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@TravelTime We own a similar unit at WKORVN. Re: the DP values for 2 weeks, are those 2 bdrm premium units in prime Oceanfront locations? or are they two weeks in smaller units with no view?

Remember you can lock off your WKORVN and get two weeks out of each side of the unit.  Locking off gives you 2 weeks of Oceanfront Maui.

Best of all it costs very little to lock-off relative to enrolling in DP.  Free is free...


----------



## Captron

CPNY said:


> agreed, I was about to ask @DavidnRobin about their GoPro as I’m going to bora bora and am thinking about buying one but not so sure. I also didn’t want to hijack the thread so I turned to google. But while I’m writing, how do you like the GoPro? I hear the battery doesn’t last at all.


I have had my Gopro 9 Black (or 10? -the one with the front color screen) out white water rafting with some cliff jumping. I love it. The battery life is not really that bad. There are also many aftermarket batteries available that are cheaper but last slightly shorter than the GoPro batteries. I got mine as a package from Costco. The price was the same as elsewhere but came with a case, extra battery, and some other bonuses. I hope this helps.


----------



## CPNY

Captron said:


> I have had my Gopro 9 Black (or 10? -the one with the front color screen) out white water rafting with some cliff jumping. I love it. The battery life is not really that bad. There are also many aftermarket batteries available that are cheaper but last slightly shorter than the GoPro batteries. I got mine as a package from Costco. The price was the same as elsewhere but came with a case, extra battery, and some other bonuses. I hope this helps.


Thanks! I just got mine and can’t wait to use it for all of my timeshare adventures! I got 3 batteries and a slew of accessories. I hope the extreme plus SD card is good enough at 256gb.


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> Marriott also tightened their resale rules in 2010. So who knows what is really going to happen or what is really the case legally. I do not know for sure since I was not a MVC owner in 2010, but someone else may be able to comment on whether the resale values plunged after 2010 due to this change. Also wondering if there were any lawsuits then since MVC’s change probably affected the value of reselling weeks contracts.



I didn't own MVC before June 2010 but MVC did not tighten resale rules post June 2010.  MVC owners could only utilize II for exchanges before DC program was introduced.  So owners GAINED additional option for internal trading.  You can't lose what you never had in the first place.


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> @TravelTime We own a similar unit at WKORVN. Re: the DP values for 2 weeks, are those 2 bdrm premium units in prime Oceanfront locations? or are they two weeks in smaller units with no view?
> 
> Remember you can lock off your WKORVN and get two weeks out of each side of the unit.  Locking off gives you 2 weeks of Oceanfront Maui.
> 
> Best of all it costs very little to lock-off relative to enrolling in DP.  Free is free...



If you lock off at WKOVRN OF 2 BR, you would get a 1BR and studio. I would never use a studio even for just my husband and me. With SOs, at some nice locations, it is possible to get a 1 BR for 81,000 SOs but off season and at 8 months assuming stuff is left. Now we have 2 kids so we could only use a 2 BR. 

With DPs, if it is true you can get 8300 DPs for a WKOVRN OF 2 BR, you could actually use 3900 DPs for a 2BR OF at the Ritz St Thomas so you could get 2 weeks there in June/July before hurricane season and still have some DPs left over. You can book this at 13 months, which I did last year and I have 15 nights there coming up this June.  It was 8,000 DPs for 15 nights. This is less than 8300 that we would get for WKOVRN OF 2BR and we are getting more than double the nights. This is just an example. There are other nice beachfront resorts that have a similar DP value for 2BR OF or island view. I tend to go for ocean view. Even at Ko Olina, you can get OV (they do not have OF category but OV is like OF at Ko Olina) which is spectacular for 4900-5800 DPs per week. So you could easily get 1.5 weeks for sure in 2 BR ocean view at many locations and 2+ weeks at some locations.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> I didn't own MVC before June 2010 but MVC did not tighten resale rules post June 2010.  MVC owners could only utilize II for exchanges before DC program was introduced.  So owners GAINED additional option for internal trading.  You can't lose what you never had in the first place.



I thought if you owned a MVC week prior to 2010, you could enroll it to exchange for DPs for $595 or something like that. If you purchased after 2010, then it was devalued because you would need to spend tens of thousands of dollars to enroll for DPs. To me that is tightening up the resale rules. Did I misunderstand something?


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> I thought if you owned a MVC week prior to 2010, you could enroll it to exchange for DPs for $595 or something like that. If you purchased after 2010, then it was devalued because you would need to spend tens of thousands of dollars to enroll for DPs. To me that is tightening up the resale rules. Did I misunderstand something?


But you were talking about DC program causing resale weeks devaluation.  In 2009, Marriott weeks could only use II to trade.  They had no clue that they were going to get an internal trading system. If I buy a resale week now, I also have the option to use II to trade. 

Owners, retail and resale purchase, before DC program got the benefit of being able to enroll.


----------



## MICROZE

rickandcindy23 said:


> I agree.  I would never devalue our Westin weeks by moving them to anything Marriott.  I wish they would just leave the systems separate.  This is such a crazy idea to me.


Not sure when or where this rumor started *"The VSN-System could go away"*.
To the contrary, Denise's contact mentioned that _"VSN-Members would continue to exchange as before if they chose to do so"_.
I saw a Training-Video that explicitly states that _"Enrolled VSN-Owners will have an additional option each year to elect Marriott-DP"._
However, _"VSN-Owners could continue to transact business as usual if they so choose"_.

Effectively *the VSN is not going away*. Nothing changes if owners choose to not want to participate.

This applies to both Enrolled & Non-Enrolled.
Enrolled owners would have one more option [DCP-System]

This applies to both Direct & Resale contracts.
This applies to both Mandatory-Resale [II & VSN] & Voluntary-Resale weeks [II].
*Future*: Anything can happen in the future. I don't think even Marriott knows what will happen to inventory & availability within the VSN as that depends on the value VSN-Owners find in the new DP.
Past is all I have as a reference point. Being a resale-owner [Pre-2010], I have seen good things [1-Fee-DCP, Free-II-Membership, Free-II-Exchanges, Unlimited-II-Changes] happen after the DCP-System.
Pre-2010 all I had was II and it worked well. Post-2010, I have continued to use II for exchanges into 2BR-Hawaii-Units [Westin-Maui/Princeville, Marriott-Lahaina/Oahu] using a Studio/1BR without even paying a Size-Upgrade fee. This year, for the first time in over a decade we chose to elect DCP-Points for my Deeded-Weeks because I have too many units deposited with II [COVID et al] and like the DCP-Flexibility/Options/Choices [Free-Banking/Borrowing, 2+Years, Free-Changes/Cancel, Points-Discounts, Liberal-Election-Windows, II-Options].

*Speculation*: I think the worst thing Marriott could have done is the Soft-Launch which [unlike the "2010-Surprise" DCP-System with no notice] has caused speculation to run rampant. I dread waiting another 6-8 weeks and wonder how much yarn we will spin out of thin air. Having read every single post on this thread, I have seen ZERO new facts [from Marriott or Denise's contact], however, I have seen numerous new theories building on top of others. Using the 7-Whisper analogy, I can see myself causing unnecessary stress as the message gets diluted while we speculate the multiple permutations and "what ifs". Some of us speculate on a wish/hope more than a fact which is human nature. I think we need to take time to digest what we have and "wait-and-see" what happens as the magnitude of the impact of these changes will be as varied as the varied types of ownership's we all have.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> But you talking about DC program causing resale weeks devaluation.  In 2009, Marriott weeks could only use II to trade.  They had no clue that they were going to get an internal trading system. If I buy a resale week now, I also have the option to use II to trade.
> 
> Owners, retail and resale purchase, before DC program got the benefit of being able to enroll.



Maybe we are miscommunicating. I am not talking about II. To me, II is not a benefit. Maybe your second point is what I mean. I thought if you purchased resale prior to 2010, that you could enroll the week for $595 or so. I thought if you purchased a week resale after 2010, then you have to buy points or a hybrid week direct from MVC to enroll the resale week. 

Oh maybe I get what you mean. Before 2010, there was no DP program so are you saying no one lost anything since there was nothing to enroll into prior to 2010? Then why did MVC bother to let weeks owners grandfather in at all if they lost nothing? They could use II before and they could use II after. No loss. It did create a 2 tiered system with weeks purchased prior to 2010 being much more valuable than weeks purchased after, at least in my opinion since I really value the DP program. 

In a way, what you might be saying is no different than Disney. Prior to 2020, there were no new resorts. They got rid of being able to exchange into new resorts for resale buyers. DVC owners hated that but technically resale buyers lost nothing. If you sold a contract after 2020, the new buyers could still exchange into the same resorts they had access to prior to 2020, just no new resorts built after the 2020 cut off date. There were so many complaints that Disney was trying to devalue the resale market. Disney did grandfather in all existing owners. So no one lost anything when you look at it from this POV.

To me, MVC did devalue resale because when the DP program started, they did not let resale week owners elect DPs like they did for week owners prior to 2010. While technically no one lost anything since DPs did not exist prior to 2010, it was a loss of a potential benefit that never came to be.

People on this thread are complaining that Vistana is being devalued. But looking at it from the same POV, Vistana owners are losing nothing as long as they can still use SOs like before. To me, it is irrelevant what MVC is awarding for DPs for Vistana resorts if you are not electing DPs.

You can look at it both ways. I see it as a great advantage to weeks owners who owned prior to 2010. 

Okay, so what am I missing here?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

TravelTime said:


> If you lock off at WKOVRN OF 2 BR, you would get a 1BR and studio. I would never use a studio even for just my husband and me. With SOs, at some nice locations, it is possible to get a 1 BR for 81,000 SOs but off season and at 8 months assuming stuff is left. Now we have 2 kids so we could only use a 2 BR.
> 
> With DPs, if it is true you can get 8300 DPs for a WKOVRN OF 2 BR, you could actually use 3900 DPs for a 2BR OF at the Ritz St Thomas so you could get 2 weeks there in June/July before hurricane season and still have some DPs left over. You can book this at 13 months, which I did last year and I have 15 nights there coming up this June.  It was approx 10,000 DPs for 15 nights. This is not much more than 8300 that we would get for WKOVRN OF 2BR. This is just an example. There are other nice beachfront resorts that have a similar DP value for 2BR OF or island view. I tend to go for ocean view. Even at Ko Olina, you can get OV (they do not have OF category) which is spectacular for 4900-5800 DPs per week. So you could easily get 1.5 weeks for sure in 2 BR ocean view at many locations and 2+ weeks at some locations.



That sounds like a good value, however you have 13 month reservations and Elite because you are already invested in the MVC DP system. You can look for availability in advance. And yet you said you still do not see sufficient value to buy in.

For someone who doesn't have 13 month nor elite, I question whether one would be able to find that kind of availability at these resorts before depositing and would not want to risk giving up OF Maui and not getting it. Most WKORV owners are likely in this category. Plus they are happy going to Maui every year. Why spend $20k - $30k buy in to get 12 month reservations, risk. It seems we could rent out the WKORVN unit and use the money to rent exactly where we want to go. Much safer and no additional DP MF obligation.


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> Maybe we are miscommunicating. I am not talking about II. To me, II is not a benefit. Maybe your second point is what I mean. I thought if you purchased resale prior to 2010, that you could enroll the week for $595 or so. I thought if you purchased a week resale after 2010, then you have to buy points or a hybrid week direct from MVC to enroll the resale week.
> 
> Oh maybe I get what you mean. Before 2010, there was no DP program so are you saying no one lost anything since there was nothing to enroll into prior to 2010? Then why did MVC bother to let weeks owners grandfather in at all if they lost nothing? They could use II before and they could use II after. No loss. It did create a 2 tiered system with weeks purchased prior to 2010 being much more valuable than weeks purchased after, at least in my opinion since I really value the DP program.
> 
> In a way, what you might be saying is no different than Disney. Prior to 2020, there were no new resorts. They got rid of being able to exchange into new resorts for resale buyers. DVC owners hated that but technically resale buyers lost nothing. If you sold a contract after 2020, the new buyers could still exchange into the same resorts they had access to prior to 2020, just no new resorts built after the 2020 cut off date. There were so many complaints that Disney was trying to devalue the resale market. Disney did grandfather in all existing owners. So no one lost anything when you look at it from this POV.
> 
> To me, MVC did devalue resale because when the DP program started, they did not let resale week owners elect DPs like they did for week owners prior to 2010. While technically no one lost anything since DPs did not exist prior to 2010, it was a loss of a potential benefit that never came to be.
> 
> People on this thread are complaining that Vistana is being devalued. But looking at it from the same POV, Vistana owners are losing nothing as long as they can still use SOs like before. To me, it is irrelevant what MVC is awarding for DPs for Vistana resorts if you are not electing DPs.
> 
> You can look at it both ways. I see it as a great advantage to weeks owners who owned prior to 2010.
> 
> Okay, so what am I missing here?



What you are missing is the time machine.  Why would resale price be affected? If I had bought resale in 2009, I would have bought it to use or to trade in II.  If I buy a resale week now, I am also buying to use or to trade in II.  You can't say it was more valuable in 2009. In June 2010, weeks owner found out that they hit the jackpot, which did not affect the price in 2009. Unless, of course if we all had a time machine, we would go back to buy in 2009 and chase up the resale price.

MVC resale weeks that are now purchased work exactly the same way as in 2009.  Unlike Disney, post 2010 resale weeks have access to all new MVC resorts in II. MVC allowed all existing owners to enroll in 2010 because they needed inventory.  The situation is a little different for Vistana because the Flex points program has been running for a few years now. Between that and their continued push for owners to turn in their weeks into Flex points help build inventory which Marriott lacked when they introduced the DC program in 2010.

Similarly, in my view, Vistana weeks owners have lost nothing if their weeks are not enrolled.


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> That sounds like a good value, however you have 13 month reservations and Elite because you are already invested in the MVC DP system. You can look for availability in advance. And yet you said you still do not see sufficient value to buy in.
> 
> For someone who doesn't have 13 month nor elite, I question whether one would be able to find that kind of availability at these resorts before depositing and would not want to risk giving up OF Maui and not getting it. Not worth $20k - $30k buy in to get 12 month reservations, risk. It seems we could rent out the WKORVN unit and use the money to rent exactly where we want to go. Much safer and no additional DP MF obligation.



I am Presidential with MVC already. If I would have purchased what he proposed, I would move up to Chairman’s Club. Right now, the only extra benefit is 2 years banking for Chairman vs 1.5 years for what I have now.

At Select level (4000-6999 DPs) you can book one week at 13 months. With the conversion rate of WKOVRN OF 2BR, you would become Select. The banking is only 1 year at Select level vs 2 years with SOs so this might not be attractive to some Vistana people esp those who purchased just to use SOs. I think for people whose Vistana property is worth less than ours, and they do not already own any DPs, then perhaps electing DPs is not as attractive as continuing with VSE.

Frankly, I agree in the end that Vistana only owners should just stick with VSE. I am sure if I only owned Vistana, I would not even consider the MVC system. Like you said, you have a sure thing now so why give it up.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> At Select level (4000-6999 DPs) you can book one week at 13 months. With the conversion rate of WKOVRN OF 2BR, you would become Select.




I actually thought you get to Executive with the WKORVN OV/OF conversion rates?


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> If you lock off at WKOVRN OF 2 BR, you would get a 1BR and studio. I would never use a studio even for just my husband and me. With SOs, at some nice locations, it is possible to get a 1 BR for 81,000 SOs but off season and at 8 months assuming stuff is left. Now we have 2 kids so we could only use a 2 BR.
> 
> With DPs, if it is true you can get 8300 DPs for a WKOVRN OF 2 BR, you could actually use 3900 DPs for a 2BR OF at the Ritz St Thomas so you could get 2 weeks there in June/July before hurricane season and still have some DPs left over. You can book this at 13 months, which I did last year and I have 15 nights there coming up this June.  It was approx 10,000 DPs for 15 nights. This is not much more than 8300 that we would get for WKOVRN OF 2BR. This is just an example. There are other nice beachfront resorts that have a similar DP value for 2BR OF or island view. I tend to go for ocean view. Even at Ko Olina, you can get OV (they do not have OF category) which is spectacular for 4900-5800 DPs per week. So you could easily get 1.5 weeks for sure in 2 BR ocean view at many locations and 2+ weeks at some locations.


At least that studio gets a full fridge, a cooktop, and a washer dryer. Unlike studios “hotel rooms with microwaves” at “another brand’s” resorts.


----------



## jabberwocky

DanCali said:


> I actually thought you get to Executive with the WKORVN OV/OF conversion rates?
> 
> View attachment 52757


If you own an EY week, yes, you’ll be Executive. For us lowly EOY people we have divide by 2.


----------



## CPNY

MICROZE said:


> Not sure when or where this rumor started *"The VSN-System could go away"*.
> To the contrary, Denise's contact mentioned that _"VSN-Members would continue to exchange as before if they chose to do so"_.
> I saw a Training-Video that explicitly states that _"Enrolled VSN-Owners will have an additional option each year to elect Marriott-DP"._
> However, _"VSN-Owners could continue to transact business as usual if they so choose"_.
> 
> Effectively *the VSN is not going away*. Nothing changes if owners choose to not want to participate.
> 
> This applies to both Enrolled & Non-Enrolled.
> Enrolled owners would have one more option [DCP-System]
> 
> This applies to both Direct & Resale contracts.
> This applies to both Mandatory [II & VSN] & Voluntary weeks [II].
> *Future*: Anything can happen in the future. I don't think even Marriott knows what will happen to inventory & availability within the VSN as that depends on the value VSN-Owners find in the new DP.
> Past is all I have as a reference point. Being a resale-owner [Pre-2010], I have seen good things [1-Fee-DCP, Free-II-Membership, Free-II-Exchanges, Unlimited-II-Changes] happen after the DCP-System.
> Pre-2010 all I had was II and it worked well. Post-2010, I have continued to use II for exchanges into 2BR-Hawaii-Units [Westin-Maui/Princeville, Marriott-Lahaina/Oahu] using a Studio/1BR without even paying a Size-Upgrade fee. This year, for the first time in over a decade we chose to elect DCP-Points for my Deeded-Weeks because I have too many units deposited with II and like the DCP-Flexibility/Options/Choices [Free-Banking/Borrowing, 2+Years, Free-Changes/Cancel, Points-Discounts, Liberal-Election-Windows, II-Options].
> 
> *Speculation*: I think the worst thing Marriott could have done is the Soft-Launch which [unlike the "2010-Surprise" DCP-System with no notice] has caused speculation to run rampant. I dread waiting another 6-8 weeks and wonder how much yarn we will spin out of thin air. Having read every single post on this thread, I have seen ZERO new facts [from Marriott or Denise's contact], however, I have seen numerous new theories building on top of others. Using the 7-Whisper analogy, I can see myself causing unnecessary stress as the message gets diluted while we speculate the multiple permutations and "what ifs". Some of us speculate on a wish/hope more than a fact which is human nature. I think we need to take time to digest what we have and "wait-and-see" what happens as the magnitude of the impact of these changes will be as varied as the varied types of ownership's we all have.


I agree, especially on the wish/hope speculation. I wish and hope that my unenrolled mandatory resale weeks can have no fee internal interval exchanges and no banking fee. I’d be plenty satisfied with that without the ability to convert to DC points. Same way resale mandatory cannot convert to bonvoy or exchange SO for resort credits, I don’t see us being able to convert to DC. Bring on the Interval benefits!


----------



## Red elephant

MICROZE said:


> Not sure when or where this rumor started *"The VSN-System could go away"*.
> To the contrary, Denise's contact mentioned that _"VSN-Members would continue to exchange as before if they chose to do so"_.
> I saw a Training-Video that explicitly states that _"Enrolled VSN-Owners will have an additional option each year to elect Marriott-DP"._
> However, _"VSN-Owners could continue to transact business as usual if they so choose"_.
> 
> Effectively *the VSN is not going away*. Nothing changes if owners choose to not want to participate.
> 
> This applies to both Enrolled & Non-Enrolled.
> Enrolled owners would have one more option [DCP-System]
> 
> This applies to both Direct & Resale contracts.
> This applies to both Mandatory [II & VSN] & Voluntary weeks [II].
> *Future*: Anything can happen in the future. I don't think even Marriott knows what will happen to inventory & availability within the VSN as that depends on the value VSN-Owners find in the new DP.
> Past is all I have as a reference point. Being a resale-owner [Pre-2010], I have seen good things [1-Fee-DCP, Free-II-Membership, Free-II-Exchanges, Unlimited-II-Changes] happen after the DCP-System.
> Pre-2010 all I had was II and it worked well. Post-2010, I have continued to use II for exchanges into 2BR-Hawaii-Units [Westin-Maui/Princeville, Marriott-Lahaina/Oahu] using a Studio/1BR without even paying a Size-Upgrade fee. This year, for the first time in over a decade we chose to elect DCP-Points for my Deeded-Weeks because I have too many units deposited with II and like the DCP-Flexibility/Options/Choices [Free-Banking/Borrowing, 2+Years, Free-Changes/Cancel, Points-Discounts, Liberal-Election-Windows, II-Options].
> 
> *Speculation*: I think the worst thing Marriott could have done is the Soft-Launch which [unlike the "2010-Surprise" DCP-System with no notice] has caused speculation to run rampant. I dread waiting another 6-8 weeks and wonder how much yarn we will spin out of thin air. Having read every single post on this thread, I have seen ZERO new facts [from Marriott or Denise's contact], however, I have seen numerous new theories building on top of others. Using the 7-Whisper analogy, I can see myself causing unnecessary stress as the message gets diluted while we speculate the multiple permutations and "what ifs". Some of us speculate on a wish/hope more than a fact which is human nature. I think we need to take time to digest what we have and "wait-and-see" what happens as the magnitude of the impact of these changes will be as varied as the varied types of ownership's we all have.


What we have been getting that’s new are the conversation points allocated for each week. That’s on purpose I think as Marriott wants Vistana owners to start thinking about converting before the hard launch and getting people to enroll their weeks.


----------



## Ken555

Red elephant said:


> What we have been getting that’s new are the conversation points allocated for each week. That’s on purpose I think as Marriott wants Vistana owners to start thinking about converting before the hard launch and getting people to enroll their weeks.



Or…it’s simply another way to create an artificial urgency to upgrade weeks and generate sales. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> I agree, especially on the wish/hope speculation. I wish and hope that my unenrolled mandatory resale weeks can have no fee internal interval exchanges and no banking fee. I’d be plenty satisfied with that without the ability to convert to DC points. Same way resale mandatory cannot convert to bonvoy or exchange SO for resort credits, I don’t see us being able to convert to DC. Bring on the Interval benefits!


This is probably the one benefit the one fee for all. As I believe you will need to enroll your weeks in order to play in the sandbox. 
I wonder if we as Vistana owners will have same priority on interval since we have same fees?


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> At least that studio gets a full fridge, a cooktop, and a washer dryer. Unlike studios “hotel rooms with microwaves” at “another brand’s” resorts.



Exactly. The Westin studios (in Hawaii and elsewhere) are small but amenity rich. I have no difficulty spending a week or more in one…but I wouldn’t dream of it in a hotel room. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Red elephant

Ken555 said:


> Or…it’s simply another way to create an artificial urgency to upgrade weeks and generate sales.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For some reason I don’t think so. But we shall see as it’s not too long away.


----------



## Red elephant

Ken555 said:


> Exactly. The Westin studios (in Hawaii and elsewhere) are small but amenity rich. I have no difficulty spending a week or more in one…but I wouldn’t dream of it in a hotel room.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would not either. With my 2 bd in Nanea home options I spent two weeks in a 1 bedroom in Maui.


----------



## Ken555

Red elephant said:


> For some reason I don’t think so. But we shall see as it’s not too long away.



Oh, that was partly sarcasm… but really, the timeshare industry knows exactly how to generate enthusiasm and create artificial urgency with sales, limited time deals, etc. Don’t ignore that without published details it’s more than likely they are having higher numbers of owners updates than normal…and correspondingly higher close rates. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CalGalTraveler

jabberwocky said:


> If you own an EY week, yes, you’ll be Executive. For us lowly EOY people we have divide by 2.



Ugh! So only 12 month reservations and not enough points to book a corner of a janitors closet at an MVC resort plus $20k - $30k DPs + MF


----------



## jabberwocky

CalGalTraveler said:


> Ugh! So only 12 month reservations and not enough points to book a corner of a janitors closet at an MVC resort plus $20k - $30k DPs + MF


Yes. If that was your only holding. I’m not sure what percentage of WKORV-N OF are EOY, but based on the number of listing a I see on Redweek and elsewhere it seems to be pretty high (south seems to have mainly annual OF - but I’ve been hunting for an EOY one there.)

In a way I’m lucky. Even if they don’t count our mandatory WKORVN deed towards elite status, we still have enough with our other developer/retroed deeds for Executive status. If for some reason we get lucky and they do enroll mandatory deeds, then we would be Presidential.

At any rate, I won’t be paying $10-30k just to possibly enroll that single week. I’d rather buy another mandatory deed or a bunch of VAC stock.  Both will likely not lose as much value as a developer purchase.


----------



## remowidget

Red elephant said:


> This is probably the one benefit the one fee for all. As I believe you will need to enroll your weeks in order to play in the sandbox.
> I wonder if we as Vistana owners will have same priority on interval since we have same fees?


We already have the same priority in interval.

I keep forgetting this, but another advantage of resale mandatory is you are in VSN, so you get a VSN Interval account. 

Voluntary resale owners must purchase their own separate interval account. I don't know if they get priority in interval trades. Although you can choose to not pay for an account, where as you must pay for one if you own retail or mandatory resale.

If you own retail or mandatory as well as voluntary, you would need two interval accounts to trade from both.


----------



## MICROZE

Red elephant said:


> What we have been getting that’s new are the conversation points allocated for each week. That’s on purpose I think as Marriott wants Vistana owners to start thinking about converting before the hard launch and getting people to enroll their weeks.


Agree. The only delta-info [since the Soft-Launch] has been the Points-Charts.

*Implementation/Execution*
However, the Points-Charts are the minutia details [most likely locked-#'s] depicting the #-Points needed to book a week.
What's more relevant is the #-Points owners will accrue for their weeks owned, which will likely be 10%-20% below the average of those charts.

*Fundamentals*
What's even more relevant is the foundation of the new integration program.
These would be the guiding policies and principles like:

What are the Eligibility-Rules?
Would Direct-Purchases be automatically Enrolled? If yes, will there be a fee?
Would Mandatory-Resale weeks be treated like Direct-Purchase weeks?
Would Mandatory-Resale be asked to Retro to Enroll?

Would Voluntary-Resale be permitted to participate by paying a fee?
Would Voluntary-Resale be asked to Retro to Enroll?


Will there be an Enrollment-Fee? If yes, is it $100's or $1000's?
What happens for people with Hybrid-Accounts [Direct, Resale-Voluntary, Resale-Mandatory]?
VSN-Owners would be able to continue to use the VSN as before [Including exchange via II].
Would Hybrid VSN-Owners who Enroll have Multiple II-Accounts? 1 WITH DCP-Benefits + 1-WITHOUT?

There are probably many more policy details that have not been answered by the Soft-Launch which is causing uncertainty leading to speculation and thus stress.


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> I actually thought you get to Executive with the WKORVN OV/OF conversion rates?
> 
> View attachment 52757



I was talking about the EOY since she and I both have that one and not the annual. So it’s half every year.


----------



## Red elephant

MICROZE said:


> Agree. The only delta-info [since the Soft-Launch] has been the Points-Charts.
> 
> *Implementation/Execution*
> However, the Points-Charts are the minutia details [most likely locked-#'s] depicting the #-Points needed to book a week.
> What's more relevant is the #-Points owners will accrue for their weeks owned, which will likely be 10%-20% below the average of those charts.
> 
> *Fundamentals*
> What's even more relevant is the foundation of the new integration program.
> These would be the guiding policies and principles like:
> 
> What are the Eligibility-Rules?
> Would Direct-Purchases be automatically Enrolled? If yes, will there be a fee?
> Would Mandatory-Resale weeks be treated like Direct-Purchase weeks?
> Would Mandatory-Resale be asked to Retro to Enroll?
> 
> Would Voluntary-Resale be permitted to participate by paying a fee?
> Would Voluntary-Resale be asked to Retro to Enroll?
> 
> 
> Will there be an Enrollment-Fee? If yes, is it $100's or $1000's?
> What happens for people with Hybrid-Accounts [Direct, Resale-Voluntary, Resale-Mandatory]?
> VSN-Owners would be able to continue to use the VSN as before [Including exchange via II].
> Would Hybrid VSN-Owners who Enroll have Multiple II-Accounts? 1 WITH DCP-Benefits + 1-WITHOUT?
> 
> There are probably many more policy details that have not been answered by the Soft-Launch which is causing uncertainty leading to speculation and thus stress.


From what I was told only qualified weeks/points will be allowed to participate with no added cost. That’s those that can convert to bonvoy .
Anyone else will need to qualify their ownership to participate period . No other enrollment fees. 
Vistana owners will be Just like the owners on Marriott side with unqualified and qualified products but only qualified product owners participate in DC. 
It’s just that we have VSN, interval and now DC choices and Marriott has interval and DC.


----------



## Sicnarf

So, will Vistana.com no longer exists when full  integration finally happens? Will ALL MVC owners be using one system?


----------



## kozykritter

CPNY said:


> I agree, especially on the wish/hope speculation. I wish and hope that my unenrolled mandatory resale weeks can have no fee internal interval exchanges and no banking fee. I’d be plenty satisfied with that without the ability to convert to DC points. Same way resale mandatory cannot convert to bonvoy or exchange SO for resort credits, I don’t see us being able to convert to DC. Bring on the Interval benefits!


One thing that hasn't been made clear in all the soft launch "info" shared so far is what constitutes a VSN internal II exchange as far as being fee free after the VSN dues are raised to MVC levels.

Right now VSN members pay $164 for Vistana to Vistana and Vistana to MVC trades in II. Marriott members pay no fee for MVC to MVC trades and the same $164 for MVC to Vistana trades. It is very possible that only the Vistana to Vistana II trades will be included in the VSN dues for free, similar to the MVC model. Of course they may also eliminate the $164 trade fee between Vistana and MVC properties for both systems as well. Murky, murky stuff!


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Red elephant said:


> From what I was told only qualified weeks/points will be allowed to participate with no added cost. That’s those that can convert to bonvoy .
> Anyone else will need to qualify their ownership to participate period . No other enrollment fees.
> Vistana owners will be Just like the owners on Marriott side with unqualified and qualified products but only qualified product owners participate in DC.
> It’s just that we have VSN, interval and now DC choices and Marriott has interval and DC.



That may convince some WKORV owners to enroll. Some long time owners may deposit, especially those that are aging and may want an MVC closer to home. 

It is nice MVC is recognizing those that paid retail in the past. We are resale so will enjoy what we have and use SOs when needed. We've already saved thousands over retail.


----------



## CPNY

kozykritter said:


> One thing that hasn't been made clear in all the soft launch "info" shared so far is what constitutes a VSN internal II exchange as far as being fee free after the VSN dues are raised to MVC levels.
> 
> Right now VSN members pay $164 for Vistana to Vistana and Vistana to MVC trades in II. Marriott members pay no fee for MVC to MVC trades and the same $164 for MVC to Vistana trades. It is very possible that only the Vistana to Vistana II trades will be included in the VSN dues for free, similar to the MVC model. Of course they may also eliminate the $164 trade fee between Vistana and MVC properties for both systems as well. Murky, murky stuff!


I hope they remove the fee for both vistana and Marriott side for all those enrolled in VSN and DC.


----------



## CPNY

CalGalTraveler said:


> That may convince some WKORV owners to enroll. Some long time owners may deposit, especially those that are aging and may want an MVC closer to home.
> 
> It is nice MVC is recognizing those that paid retail in the past. We are resale so will enjoy what we have and use SOs when needed. We've already saved thousands over retail.


What about those of us who paid retail in the past before buying resale? We get no love lol. If I didn’t own mostly in Orlando (low DC value) I’d consider making a purchase to retro. Ok, I considered it, nope!


----------



## VacationForever

.....


----------



## VacationForever

CPNY said:


> What about those of us who paid retail in the past before buying resale? We get no love lol. If I didn’t own mostly in Orlando (low DC value) I’d consider making a purchase to retro. Ok, I considered it, nope!


Which developer bought timeshare do you own?


----------



## rickandcindy23

TravelTime said:


> Maybe we are miscommunicating. I am not talking about II. To me, II is not a benefit. Maybe your second point is what I mean. I thought if you purchased resale prior to 2010, that you could enroll the week for $595 or so. I thought if you purchased a week resale after 2010, then you have to buy points or a hybrid week direct from MVC to enroll the resale week.
> 
> Oh maybe I get what you mean. Before 2010, there was no DP program so are you saying no one lost anything since there was nothing to enroll into prior to 2010? Then why did MVC bother to let weeks owners grandfather in at all if they lost nothing? They could use II before and they could use II after. No loss. It did create a 2 tiered system with weeks purchased prior to 2010 being much more valuable than weeks purchased after, at least in my opinion since I really value the DP program.
> 
> In a way, what you might be saying is no different than Disney. Prior to 2020, there were no new resorts. They got rid of being able to exchange into new resorts for resale buyers. DVC owners hated that but technically resale buyers lost nothing. If you sold a contract after 2020, the new buyers could still exchange into the same resorts they had access to prior to 2020, just no new resorts built after the 2020 cut off date. There were so many complaints that Disney was trying to devalue the resale market. Disney did grandfather in all existing owners. So no one lost anything when you look at it from this POV.
> 
> To me, MVC did devalue resale because when the DP program started, they did not let resale week owners elect DPs like they did for week owners prior to 2010. While technically no one lost anything since DPs did not exist prior to 2010, it was a loss of a potential benefit that never came to be.
> 
> People on this thread are complaining that Vistana is being devalued. But looking at it from the same POV, Vistana owners are losing nothing as long as they can still use SOs like before. To me, it is irrelevant what MVC is awarding for DPs for Vistana resorts if you are not electing DPs.
> 
> You can look at it both ways. I see it as a great advantage to weeks owners who owned prior to 2010.
> 
> Okay, so what am I missing here?


I get exactly what you are saying. 

I saw a devaluation in Marriott resale after 2010 because it was clear that resale couldn't enroll without a big purchase. Marriott devalued its own product. They did it.

Just like Mandatory SO's keep most of their value, while voluntary doesn't move to resale buyers, and so that devalued the product people paid big bucks to buy.  When you buy something like Westin Princeville, you can buy it cheaply, but the original owner paid a lot for that privilege.

Why can't people see when they pay retail for something that the privileges they pay for do not transfer to a new buyer?  Why is that okay with them at those high prices.  It's looking at your purchase with tunnel vision.  Why don't they look at it as something that may be worthless one day.  

Marriott resales are much cheaper today than they were before 2010. That was about when I bought our first resale Marriott's Willow Ridge. 

BocaBum99 predicted Marriott resales would tank in value.


----------



## GregT

Hello TUGgers,

Someone asked earlier about inventory access.   When DC was rolled out, I spent alot of time trying to understand how inventory loaded and how Marriott made inventory available.   I had numerous conversations with the head of Customer Advocacy for Marriott and he described the below to me.  The original conversation is buried somewhere on the Marriott board and if I can find it, I will link.

Fundamentally, what he said is that every year, Marriott projects how many weeks they think will be redeemed for DC points (in addition to other projections, like how many weeks will be rented by the owner, through Marriott).    Marriott then holds back these weekly projections and releases the remaining weeks to be reserved by the owners for their home ownership.

As an example, if the Trust owns 20% of Maui Ocean Club (which it did way back then) and they project another 20% of the Maui Ocean Club owners redeem for points, then only 60% of the weeks are released for home use.  Marriott makes some of those available 13 months out and some of those 12 months out, as permitted under the Marriott rules, and does it on a level basis, so that every week the same number of weeks are made available (ie, they aren't cherry picking the best weeks for some groups benefit).   They adjust their projection every year based on the previous years experience.

If Marriott follows this same structure for Westin, then I would expect Westin weeks to be available for reservation 12 months out (because there is no mechanism in Starwood that allows a 13 month reservation, that I am aware of) and Marriott would have to forecast how many Westin owners are going to 1) use their StarOptions to book other weeks  2) use their week to redeem for DC points.     Marriott's goal, as described to me, is to fairly balance supply and demand.

One thing that he impressed upon me over multiple conversations is Marriott's desire to be fair and impartial.   They are aware of the perception (and risk) that they could unfairly treat certain classes of owners and he expressed a desire (circa 2011) that no ownership class be unfairly treated.   They also don't take advantage of their leverage in an unfair way -- as an example, although they are allowed to get inventory from Interval International, we do not see a pattern where they sweep the best deposits and place them into the DC exchange inventory.   I still get great trades that Marriott would have scooped up if they were sweeping the best deposits -- I therefore don't expect them to cherry pick the Westin inventory at the 8 month mark.    I believed him and I have continued to see where Marriott doesn't "take away" rights and privileges, but merely offers new privileges to people writing checks today.

This is one of the reasons I will be surprised if Marrott doesn't allow resale owners and mandatory owners to somehow participate in the system.   I expect something more like a cutoff, where everyone who owned Starwood as of a specific date will have some manner to access or participate in the Marriott system.  I don't expect it to be free or even modest, but would expect something like a $3K fee to join.    Even though they don't want or need my Bella weeks in the system, the Marriott of 10 years ago didn't want to disenfranchise that owner.   Marriott has less desirable weeks in their system too, but they were permitted to access.

We will see.    Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg


Here is the original thread -- but it's a lot to read (even for me, and I wrote it).


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> One thing that hasn't been made clear in all the soft launch "info" shared so far is what constitutes a VSN internal II exchange as far as being fee free after the VSN dues are raised to MVC levels.
> 
> Right now VSN members pay $164 for Vistana to Vistana and Vistana to MVC trades in II. Marriott members pay no fee for MVC to MVC trades and the same $164 for MVC to Vistana trades. It is very possible that only the Vistana to Vistana II trades will be included in the VSN dues for free, similar to the MVC model. Of course they may also eliminate the $164 trade fee between Vistana and MVC properties for both systems as well. Murky, murky stuff!


Enrolled Marriott owners pay no fee for both Marriott to Marriott AND Marriott to Vistana II exchanges. Vistana pay $164 for Vistana to Vistana and Vistana to Marriott. Based on information provided already out of this, we expect all II exchange fees to go away for anyone in the combined program.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> Enrolled Marriott owners pay no fee for both Marriott to Marriott AND Marriott to Vistana II exchanges. Vistana pay $164 for Vistana to Vistana and Vistana to Marriott. Based on information provided already out of this, we expect all II exchange fees to go away for anyone in the combined program.


We can expect all we want but it might not happen that way. Time will tell.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> At least that studio gets a full fridge, a cooktop, and a washer dryer. Unlike studios “hotel rooms with microwaves” at “another brand’s” resorts.



You are correct that a Westin studio is superior than a Marriott studio due to the kitchen and washer/dryer. I do not stay in studios so to me, that stuff is not important. Even when we get a 2BR lock off, we only use the kitchen and washer/dryer on the 1BR side. I can see why you prefer Vistana if you stay in studios or you can get a small 1BR for low SOs in places you like to visit. 

I wonder if the DP cost will be higher for Vistana studios vs Marriott studios in the same location to take into account that Vistana studios have more in common with a 1BR than a traditional studio. Has anyone seen the DP charts for Vistana vs Marriott studios in the same location? 

If they cost the same in DPs, then MVC will be a offering a good deal on Vistana studios. Overall, Marriott studios are pretty low cost in DPs if you go off season. If you do not care about views or season, studios can cost under 1000 DPs. Some 1BR and 2BRs are very cost efficient in DPs during off season even for OV/OF views. Nowadays, I just look at 2BRs since we have 2 kids. Before the kids, we stayed in 1BRs (unless 1BR was not available) and I could make our DP budget stretch so much with 1BRs. 

For my WKOVRN 2BR OF, I could never get more than 2 weeks assuming I was willing to lock off for a studio, which I am not. With SOs, I might be able to get two 1BRs but on a limited basis for places I would want to travel. Like I said, two 1BRs or a 1BR + Studio does not work for me. So getting 8300+ DPs for my property is a good deal to me and a bit better than using SOs or staying at my home resort. However, we still have the option to stay at our home resort or use SOs.

I think whether MVC is a good deal or not depends on where you own and where/how you like to travel. Vistana may be a better deal for most people, assuming you are a deal driven traveler. Many of us are more into getting larger units with views in high demand locations as well as more locations with the integrated program.

All that said, I will not enroll my Vistana week unless the upfront fee is low. It’s because I am not outlying another $15,000 or more just for the ability to convert a week to DPs.

I know I have said all of this (or some variation of it) but other people (not referring to you specifically) keep repeating themselves as well on this thread. LOL


----------



## TravelTime

GregT said:


> Hello TUGgers,
> 
> Someone asked earlier about inventory access.   When DC was rolled out, I spent alot of time trying to understand how inventory loaded and how Marriott made inventory available.   I had numerous conversations with the head of Customer Advocacy for Marriott and he described the below to me.  The original conversation is buried somewhere on the Marriott board and if I can find it, I will link.
> 
> Fundamentally, what he said is that every year, Marriott projects how many weeks they think will be redeemed for DC points (in addition to other projections, like how many weeks will be rented by the owner, through Marriott).    Marriott then holds back these weekly projections and releases the remaining weeks to be reserved by the owners for their home ownership.
> 
> As an example, if the Trust owns 20% of Maui Ocean Club (which it did way back then) and they project another 20% of the Maui Ocean Club owners redeem for points, then only 60% of the weeks are released for home use.  Marriott makes some of those available 13 months out and some of those 12 months out, as permitted under the Marriott rules, and does it on a level basis, so that every week the same number of weeks are made available (ie, they aren't cherry picking the best weeks for some groups benefit).   They adjust their projection every year based on the previous years experience.
> 
> If Marriott follows this same structure for Westin, then I would expect Westin weeks to be available for reservation 12 months out (because there is no mechanism in Starwood that allows a 13 month reservation, that I am aware of) and Marriott would have to forecast how many Westin owners are going to 1) use their StarOptions to book other weeks  2) use their week to redeem for DC points.     Marriott's goal, as described to me, is to fairly balance supply and demand.
> 
> One thing that he impressed upon me over multiple conversations is Marriott's desire to be fair and impartial.   They are aware of the perception (and risk) that they could unfairly treat certain classes of owners and he expressed a desire (circa 2011) that no ownership class be unfairly treated.   They also don't take advantage of their leverage in an unfair way -- as an example, although they are allowed to get inventory from Interval International, we do not see a pattern where they sweep the best deposits and place them into the DC exchange inventory.   I still get great trades that Marriott would have scooped up if they were sweeping the best deposits -- I therefore don't expect them to cherry pick the Westin inventory at the 8 month mark.    I believed him and I have continued to see where Marriott doesn't "take away" rights and privileges, but merely offers new privileges to people writing checks today.
> 
> This is one of the reasons I will be surprised if Marrott doesn't allow resale owners and mandatory owners to somehow participate in the system.   I expect something more like a cutoff, where everyone who owned Starwood as of a specific date will have some manner to access or participate in the Marriott system.  I don't expect it to be free or even modest, but would expect something like a $3K fee to join.    Even though they don't want or need my Bella weeks in the system, the Marriott of 10 years ago didn't want to disenfranchise that owner.   Marriott has less desirable weeks in their system too, but they were permitted to access.
> 
> We will see.    Interesting stuff.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> Here is the original thread -- but it's a lot to read (even for me, and I wrote it).



Do you think MVC will get more aggressive exercising ROFR with the new program? Do you know the total numbers of DPs in the trust and what percentage is sold?


----------



## remowidget

TravelTime said:


> Do you think MVC will get more aggressive exercising ROFR with the new program? Do you know the total numbers of DPs in the trust and what percentage is sold?


I think they already have. Try to find a cheap Aventuras package. I had a friend lose a $500 one in January.


----------



## sf49fanv

We own 122k Star Options that we bought at Westin Ka'anapali. When we got them and how much we paid is not relevant now. The 122k gets us 10 nights in a one bedroom on Maui. We have an option purchase an additional 27k at a 20%discount. They want approximately 1$10k plus maintenance. I have been looking around and have found several resales for 148,100 for the same $10k. Assuming Westin will allow this type of sale does anyone know how this resale purchase will work with our developer purchase? Will I be limited in anyway?


----------



## remowidget

TravelTime said:


> Do you think MVC will get more aggressive exercising ROFR with the new program? Do you know the total numbers of DPs in the trust and what percentage is sold?


Here is something I found in the Lagunamar Owners meeting report. As you can see, Marriott/Vistana has been very active in acquiring weeks over the last couple of years.


----------



## TravelTime

sf49fanv said:


> We own 122k Star Options that we bought at Westin Ka'anapali. When we got them and how much we paid is not relevant now. The 122k gets us 10 nights in a one bedroom on Maui. We have an option purchase an additional 27k at a 20%discount. They want approximately 1$10k plus maintenance. I have been looking around and have found several resales for 148,100 for the same $10k. Assuming Westin will allow this type of sale does anyone know how this resale purchase will work with our developer purchase? Will I be limited in anyway?



Just out of curiosity, how much did you pay for 122K SOs? I assume this is annual. Is that correct?


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> I know I have said all of this (or some variation of it) but other people (not referring to you specifically) keep repeating themselves as well on this thread. LOL


I have repeatedly said that we all need to stop repeating ourselves.


----------



## sf49fanv

cindylou said:


> Need advice re: authorizing resale Vistana, Marriott Chairman’s Club and Titanium, 13 months out reservation benefit. Looking for TUGgers who authorized resale Vistana weeks, and Marriott Destination Club Point villa owners with two or more weeks to advise and confirm what we were told
> 
> Went to our Vistana owner’s update last weekend and was told:
> 
> -       This will be the last opportunity to authorize resale Vistana units prior to Marriott reservation system merger in May (yeah, whatever)
> 
> -       New reservation/StarOptions/Marriott Destination Club Point system will address the disconnect between owners who purchased same number of points for different prices, meaning those who purchased 176,700 StarOptions at Maui will have higher priority or take less StarOptions getting a Maui reservation vs someone who purchased 176,700 StarOptions elsewhere, effectively devaluing certain properties.  For example, it may take twice the normal Lakeside Terrace StarOptions to get a studio at WKORV at the 8- month point
> 
> -       If we paid to authorize our 4 WKORV OF we would qualify for 5 star elite and Titanium level now and then after merger Marriott Chairman’s Club; Chairman’s Club will let us make our reservations 13 months out from check-in, 1 month earlier than owners who only own 1 week
> 
> We were offered:
> 
> -       Purchase 1 BR Oceanview WKORV South every other year and authorize our 4 WKORV Oceanfront resales for $25,667 ($10K to authorize first unit, then $5K for each one after)
> 
> -       81,000 StarOptions (7 nights in a 1BR at WKORV)
> 
> -       Makes us 5 star elite
> 
> -       1 Million wholesale (Marriott?) points for purchase option (4 certificates of 270K at $1875 each) until Dec 15, 2023; points good for 6 years
> 
> Our situation and thought process
> 
> -       For the last 15 years we had no interest in 5 star elite benefits
> 
> o                  We rarely use Marriott points for stays but sometimes do convert to airline miles
> 
> o                  We always use all our StarOptions to stay in one of our home resorts (WKORV)
> 
> o                   If we don’t use our WKORV weeks, we rent them out
> 
> -       We got tired of moving every week for 8 weeks at WKORV and could not bring our dog so we bought a condo up the hill from WKORV and will be here 4-6 months a year
> 
> -       We anticipate renting out all 4 weeks of WKORV
> 
> -       The 13-month reservation window from potential Chairman’s Club is appealing now to minimize the stress of 7 weeks of making reservations at exactly one year out
> 
> -       The Float Period waitlist could be useful since our 2 of our fixed weeks are 5 weeks apart and we might want to make the 4 weeks consecutive
> 
> -       Authorizing all the weeks would make future owner’s updates painless – they could offer nothing we don’t already have
> 
> -       We don’t think we’ve ever seen this low price to authorize 4 weeks
> 
> -       We are actually planning trips to Europe, Bora Bora and Maldives where Marriott points (and converting Villa options to points) could be very useful, but then again the best bang for our buck is probably renting out Maui weeks instead of converting to point for other travel
> 
> Obviously the above is probably not worth $25K, or is it?
> 
> Marriott Ocean Club owners with 2 or more weeks – is it true you get to make your reservations at 13 months out, while those with only 1 week have to wait for 12 months out?  We were shown a chart that indicated everyone could already reserve at 13 months out, so it appears our “advantage” would be shared by all owners anyway and therefore not an advantage at all.
> 
> Marriott Owners with 2 or more weeks – are you able to make reservations for 2 consecutive weeks in one phone call? We were told that is the case.  This would also reduce our stress.
> 
> 5-star Elites – do we really need any of those benefits if we are just going to rent out our units?
> 
> Vistana owners – have you regretted authorizing any of your resale weeks?
> 
> I bluffed and said we were not interested, hoping to see if they’d lower the prices, but they just brought us the Encore package instead, so we plunked down the $99 to keep our options open for another few days.  Encore package will be 1BR WKORV for $1894 for 6 days (or studio for $1594)
> 
> Any advice welcomed.  We need to back out of the Encore or make a move by Wed Feb



What does this mean: This will be the last opportunity to *authorize resale Vistana units*


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> I have repeatedly said that we all need to stop repeating ourselves.



Ha ha…LOL


----------



## sf49fanv

TravelTime said:


> Just out of curiosity, how much did you pay for 122K SOs? I assume this is annual. Is that correct?



This is a deeded 1br week in WKORV (122k) Star Options for $43k. It is Westin Flex and yes it is annual.


----------



## rickandcindy23

sf49fanv said:


> What does this mean: This will be the last opportunity to *authorize resale Vistana units*


This is a salesperson that told them that this is the last opportunity to....  Sales crap.


----------



## MICROZE

sf49fanv said:


> This is a deeded 1br week in WKORV (122k) Star Options for $43k. It is Westin Flex and yes it is annual.


Is it a Deeded-Week OR is it Westin-Flex?
Can it be both?


----------



## remowidget

sf49fanv said:


> What does this mean: This will be the last opportunity to *authorize resale Vistana units*


According to what was reported earlier in this thread, once they stop selling Vistana, the ability to bring resale weeks into the system will completely go away as well.


----------



## byeloe

sf49fanv said:


> This is a deeded 1br week in WKORV (122k) Star Options for $43k. It is Westin Flex and yes it is annual.


westin Flex is not the same as deeded at WKORV


----------



## GregT

TravelTime said:


> Do you think MVC will get more aggressive exercising ROFR with the new program? Do you know the total numbers of DPs in the trust and what percentage is sold?


Yes I do think they will aggressively exercise ROFR and I also think they will approach owners who are selling and buy their week from them.  They hired brokers in the past to go out and solicit weeks to sell to Marriott.     It is my expectation that they will procure Starwood weeks and deposit them into the Marriott DC Trust.   I also wouldn't be surprised to see them offer Westin Flex owners the opportunity to permanently exchange their weeks and receive Trust Points instead.  I have to think that they want to merge the different Trusts into the Marriott DC Trust, but that is complete speculation on my part.

Jeremy (Dioxide45) used to monitor the weeks as they were deposited into the Trust and the last spreadsheet was circa 2015 -- I will try to find that link too.   There are oddities in the Trust, such as Kauai Lagoons was never sold and therefore it's tough to obtain an II trade for that property (which is a beautiful property).   The third building at Ko Olina has a number of units that are Single Entry Door units, and when it was opened, the entire building was deposited into the Trust -- making Ko Olina a very easy points reservation.  There are two "features" to that property -- I love the Nanea building so when I reserve my home week, I request a Single Entry Door, so I guarantee that I will placed in Nanea.  The 3BR MV units are actually OV units, but the way that Building 4 was laid out (not yet built and may never be) the views might have been impacted, so you can get a great 3BR unit with an OV in Nanea for MV pricing.

These are the types of oddities that interest me as I look to stretch my points or ensure a specific location.  There are similar oddities with other buildings too.   Similar to our local knowledge that Building 4 at WKORV is not a preferred building.

It will be interesting to see what is rolled out finally and I do believe Marriott will protect the rights and interests of the existing owners, and offer new bells and whistles to try to generate sales.

Best,

Greg


Here is the link to the contents of the Trust, last updated in 2016 -- it provides some "assurance" of the probability of making a reservation at one of these properties.  If it's not the Trust, then we are dependent on the owners choosing to redeem their weeks.  I'm sure Marriott has continued to ROFR/foreclose/procure weeks but have no idea what their interest level is.   Kalanipu'u is Kauai Lagoons.


----------



## TravelTime

GregT said:


> Yes I do think they will aggressively exercise ROFR and I also think they will approach owners who are selling and buy their week from them.  They hired brokers in the past to go out and solicit weeks to sell to Marriott.     It is my expectation that they will procure Starwood weeks and deposit them into the Marriott DC Trust.   I also wouldn't be surprised to see them offer Westin Flex owners the opportunity to permanently exchange their weeks and receive Trust Points instead.  I have to think that they want to merge the different Trusts into the Marriott DC Trust, but that is complete speculation on my part.
> 
> Jeremy (Dioxide45) used to monitor the weeks as they were deposited into the Trust and the last spreadsheet was circa 2015 -- I will try to find that link too.   There are oddities in the Trust, such as Kauai Lagoons was never sold and therefore it's tough to obtain an II trade for that property (which is a beautiful property).   The third building at Ko Olina has a number of units that are Single Entry Door units, and when it was opened, the entire building was deposited into the Trust -- making Ko Olina a very easy points reservation.  There are two "features" to that property -- I love the Nanea building so when I reserve my home week, I request a Single Entry Door, so I guarantee that I will placed in Nanea.  The 3BR MV units are actually OV units, but the way that Building 4 was laid out (not yet built and may never be) the views might have been impacted, so you can get a great 3BR unit with an OV in Nanea for MV pricing.
> 
> These are the types of oddities that interest me as I look to stretch my points or ensure a specific location.  There are similar oddities with other buildings too.   Similar to our local knowledge that Building 4 at WKORV is not a preferred building.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what is rolled out finally and I do believe Marriott will protect the rights and interests of the existing owners, and offer new bells and whistles to try to generate sales.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> Here is the link to the contents of the Trust, last updated in 2016 -- it provides some "assurance" of the probability of making a reservation at one of these properties.  If it's not the Trust, then we are dependent on the owners choosing to redeem their weeks.  I'm sure Marriott has continued to ROFR/foreclose/procure weeks but have no idea what their interest level is.   Kalanipu'u is Kauai Lagoons.



Thanks Greg. This is interesting history. Do you think MVC will end up allowing Vistana owners to convert their weeks to DPs for a low entry fee? 

I went to a presentation this week. At first the sales person said I could convert my Vistana week into points with no fee. I asked if he was sure and then he asked his supervisor. Then he came back and said I needed to buy 1000 DPs to enroll my week and spend $15,000. They do not know what the rules will be on the new integrated program or whether Chairman level will be enhanced. I sort of wonder if the sales people are just trying to sell points but they have no clue as to what MVC will offer Vistana resale owners esp mandatory owners. I do believe they know the DP point charts and conversion since it was printed on my account. But I wonder if they know what the enrollment plan is.


----------



## HankW

Red elephant said:


> From what I was told only qualified weeks/points will be allowed to participate with no added cost. That’s those that can convert to bonvoy .
> Anyone else will need to qualify their ownership to participate period . No other enrollment fees.
> Vistana owners will be Just like the owners on Marriott side with unqualified and qualified products but only qualified product owners participate in DC.
> It’s just that we have VSN, interval and now DC choices and Marriott has interval and DC.



I feel like we are going in circles with these questions and new aspirational integrated program "facts."  We see lots of "I was told," rumors, etc.  We also have plenty of pics of the points breakdown, when will the actual points chart be available to all? Are these point charts fully executed/final? Are they going to tweak all these Charts? I believe we have the key questions captured pretty well, we just need to wait for actual evidence in writing from MVC.  We got time to at least review our portfolios, strategies, risks, and goals, and put in place our plans (hold, acquire, shift, etc). The old say ... Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.


----------



## vacationtime1

TravelTime said:


> Thanks Greg. This is interesting history. Do you think MVC will end up allowing Vistana owners to convert their weeks to DPs for a low entry fee?
> 
> I went to a presentation this week. At first the sales person said I could convert my Vistana week into points with no fee. I asked if he was sure and then he asked his supervisor. Then he came back and said I needed to buy 1000 DPs to enroll my week and spend $15,000. They do not know what the rules will be on the new integrated program or whether Chairman level will be enhanced.* I sort of wonder if the sales people are just trying to sell points but they have no clue as to what MVC will offer Vistana resale owners esp mandatory owners. I do believe they know the DP point charts and conversion since it was printed on my account. But I wonder if they know what the enrollment plan is.*


I wonder the same.  But while I am wondering, I am not going to spend $15K based on FOMO.

I also wonder whether this entire "soft launch" thing is so Marriott can learn how much "ouch" Vistana owners will accept to enroll in the DC -- and to then set their pricing accordingly.


----------



## TravelTime

daviator said:


> I have been thinking and saying for years that one of Marriott's goals is to introduce more intentional complexity into an already-complex system and make it harder, or at least more complex, to use.  A more complex system results in more owners who either do not use it effectively, do not use it at all, or walk away, each of which benefits MVW.  They rent out the unreserved weeks and nights (for big bucks, in many cases) and when owners default on their ownerships, the HOAs (i.e. owners, *not* MVW) take the financial hit on any unpaid maintenance fees) and MVW gets a shiny new ownership back into their portfolio, at minimal cost, to resell at full price again.
> 
> I think they want to create lots of complicated ways to use our ownerships, so that they can always respond to confused owners with “you should have done x, you could have done y, you should buy more and then you could do z.”  But all the while they are happy if many owners throw up their hands and leave their time unreserved.
> 
> Now maybe I’m just overly cynical.  Obviously MVW does not want empty rooms, because they also profit from guests spending money on site.  But they are pretty good at monetizing those empty rooms and filling them, and I suspect they will get even better at that in the future.
> 
> All of this is yet another good reason to be here on TUG, as few participants here will be baffled and unable to effectively use what they own.  But from what I see in groups on Facebook, for example, MANY owners are confused about the existing Vistana system and throwing another layer on top is just going to confuse them more.



Many Vistana owners say MVC is complicated. I have both and think they are about the same in complexity. What makes you say MVC is complicated? I am referring to MVC DP system since owning an MVC resale week is super simple…use the week or trade on II.


----------



## kozykritter

VacationForever said:


> I have repeatedly said that we all need to stop repeating ourselves.


I agree. I'm going to take a nap. Someone please wake me when Vistana or MVC announces actual facts about this "situation"


----------



## TravelTime

I just saw Jeremy’s video on WKR. I thought the resort would be impressive since he said it was a premium resort and Vistana owners rave about it. In reality, it was pretty ugly and looked more like a hotel than a resort. Am I missing something? Sorry if I am offending WKR owners/lovers. I really just wonder what makes it so great in many people’s opinion.


----------



## TravelTime

Curious how many Vistana owners also own DPs in the Marriott system. I read a lot of criticism in this thread so wondering if folks truly know the difference?


----------



## vacationtime1

TravelTime said:


> Curious how many Vistana owners also own DPs in the Marriott system. I read a lot of criticism in this thread so wondering if folks truly know the difference?


We used to own Marriott.  Two enrolled VOI's -- Waiohai and Kauai Beach Club -- which gave us 8450 DC points annually and "Executive" status.

When we decided to reduce our portfolio a couple of years ago, selecting which units to sell was easy.  The Marriotts had smaller suites (compare Waiohai to WKORV, or compare KBC to anything).  But worse was the relative price; our 8450 DC points were sufficient to reserve one 2bd OF unit on Maui for a week at an annual cost (MF's and Club fees) of about $4,600/year.  Our WKORV-OF unit gets us a (better) 2bd OF unit with MF's and VSE fees of about $2,600/year.

Am I criticizing Marriott?  Only relatively.  I understand that we are _very_ Hawaii-centric in our use of timeshares. But for our purposes, Vistana was the better value proposition.


----------



## TravelTime

vacationtime1 said:


> We used to own Marriott.  Two enrolled VOI's -- Waiohai and Kauai Beach Club -- which gave us 8450 DC points annually and "Executive" status.
> 
> When we decided to reduce our portfolio a couple of years ago, selecting which units to sell was easy.  The Marriotts had smaller suites (compare Waiohai to WKORV, or compare KBC to anything).  But worse was the relative price; our 8450 DC points were sufficient to reserve one 2bd OF unit on Maui for a week at an annual cost (MF's and Club fees) of about $4,600/year.  Our WKORV-OF unit gets us a (better) 2bd OF unit with MF's and VSE fees of about $2,600/year.
> 
> Am I criticizing Marriott?  Only relatively.  I understand that we are _very_ Hawaii-centric in our use of timeshares. But for our purposes, Vistana was the better value proposition.



Makes sense. I agree that my WKOVRN 2BR OF is a better deal in terms of MFs than booking Maui with DPs. I like DPs because I can book anywhere in the system. If I want to be Hawaii centric with DPs, there are some good options that are much less expensive than Maui. 

I really like the Caribbean options with MVC. I have only been to Ritz St Thomas with MVC in Caribbean but it is my favorite resort in the MVC system. In summer, it is only 3900 points for a 2BR oceanfront view. We booked 15 nights there this June for less than half in points than it costs for 1 week in Maui. We also live in CA, so getting to Hawaii is easy vs the Caribbean. I am from Miami so the Caribbean to me is much nicer than Hawaii. 

I am here at Marriott Ko Olina, which to me is the best Hawaii resort, not for the island, but for the views from the suite. However I am noticing so much poverty right now in Oahu. I am wondering if it is due to how Hawaii shut down the economy for 2 years.


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> Curious how many Vistana owners also own DPs in the Marriott system. I read a lot of criticism in this thread so wondering if folks truly know the difference?


I own MVC DPs and enrolled weeks and Vistana and like both systems.  Each system has its strength.  If Vistana has the MVC resorts which we enjoy, we would choose Vistana over MVC.  I feel that Vistana is more cost effective for many owners when they can use cheaper cost per SO to trade into more expensive properties.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> I own MVC DPs and enrolled weeks and Vistana and like both systems.  Each system has its strength.  If Vistana has the MVC resorts which we enjoy, we would choose Vistana over MVC.  I feel that Vistana is more cost effective for many owners when they can use cheaper cost per SO to trade into more expensive properties.



Agreed. Vistana is more cost effective even for Maui. Most of the folks who seem to love Vistana on this thread appear to have purchased SVV or WKR for low MFs to exchange using SOs. I agree both systems have pluses and minuses. I just do not want the Vistana only owners to be blinded to the advantages of MVC without knowing the system.


----------



## rickandcindy23

The skim alone would be enough to forget Marriott's DC for me.  When Emmy told me that she couldn't book her one bedroom and studio separately two enjoy two weeks on Maui, I knew that Marriott woudn't be my ideal for Maui.  We bought two resale Mandatory Options weeks, two 2 bedroom lockoffs, oceanfront center at the south towers.  So happy with that decision.


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> I just saw Jeremy’s video on WKR. I thought the resort would be impressive since he said it was a premium resort and Vistana owners rave about it. In reality, it was pretty ugly and looked more like a hotel than a resort. Am I missing something? Sorry if I am offending WKR owners/lovers. I really just wonder what makes it so great in many people’s opinion.


I assume you meant Westin Kierland, as we normally use WKV as the abbreviation.  The rooms are nicely laid out and well maintained.  The grounds are also nice.  Its summers are hot so it cannot have the same tropical landscape as Hawaii.  It is a 5-min walk to use the golf facility.  Golf is the center of our travels and having a golf facility at your door step is nice.  Dining out is also huge for us and being right next to Kierland Commons and Scottsdale Quarters, the location cannot be beaten.  They have the best shops and fine dining.  The wife of our friends who travel with us loves shopping, which keeps her entertained while the 3 of us golf.


----------



## VacationForever

rickandcindy23 said:


> The skim alone would be enough to forget Marriott's DC for me.  When Emmy told me that she couldn't book her one bedroom and studio separately two enjoy two weeks on Maui, I knew that Marriott woudn't be my ideal for Maui.  We bought two resale Mandatory Options weeks, two 2 bedroom lockoffs, oceanfront center at the south towers.  So happy with that decision.


If Emmy own a 2br Maui week, she can absolutely book as 2 weeks, as a 1br and a studio.  She would book as weeks as opposed to electing DC conversion for that year.  I don't generally elect conversion as I prefer to book weeks as weeks.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> I assume you meant Westin Kierland, as we normally use WKV as the abbreviation.  The rooms are nicely laid out and well maintained.  The grounds are also nice.  Its summers are hot so it cannot have the same tropical landscape as Hawaii.  It is a 5-min walk to use the golf facility.  Golf is the center of our travels and having a golf facility at your door step is nice.  Dining out is also huge for us and being right next to Kierland Commons and Scottsdale Quarters, the location cannot be beaten.  They have the best shops and fine dining.  The wife of our friends who travel with us loves shopping, which keeps her entertained while the 3 of us golf.



I totally get that people love golf and the winters in the desert resorts are great for that. Just from looking, it appears that the Marriott Palm Desert resorts are really nice. How do those compare to Kierland for the 2 BRs?

We own in 2 golf resorts in CA and live in one and we do not golf! I just like the views. LOL


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> I totally get that people love golf and the winters in the desert resorts are great for that. Just from looking, it appears that the Marriott Palm Desert resorts are really nice. How do those compare to Kierland for the 2 BRs?
> 
> We own in 2 golf resorts in CA and live in one and we do not golf! I just like the views. LOL


WKV commands high rental price because of March Spring Training.

Our preferred travel period is just after Thanksgiving and again in January where both Palm Desert and Scottsdale are 10 degrees warmer than where we live. Our preference is Palm Desert because you can play at a nice course for $80 to $130 per round.  When we were in Palm Desert in Jan this year we play 11 rounds for each of us in 21 days.  We got to play at our friends' beautiful course at Toscana Country Club for one of those rounds. Scottsdale golf is more expensive.

To answer your question, Marriott has 2 different properties in Desert Springs, I and II with different floor plans.  MVC also has Shadow Ridge Villages and Enclaves.  We have stayed at all 4 MVC properties, Westin Mission Hills and Westin Desert Willow.  WKV feels a little more upscale than these 6 properties.  We would rate 1) Desert Springs Villas I 2) Desert Springs II 3) Mission Hills 4) Desert Willow 5) Shadow Ridge Villages 6) Shadow Ridge Enclaves.  Villa size and floor plan dictate much of our ranking.  When we stay at Desert Springs I, it always feels like "home".  Large living area with a beautiful fireplace.  It is 1700 to 1800 sq ft. If you travel with friends, the studio is totally private as a foyer divides the 2 units.  The studio has both a walk-in shower and a separate bathtub.  It is not suitable for those travelling with young children.  Like you, we have never stayed in a studio and we have also never stayed in the small 1Br in the Vistana system.  Large rooms and walk-in showers are very important to us.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> We can expect all we want but it might not happen that way. Time will tell.


Perhaps, but we have seen printed material from Marriott/Vistana that indicates which fees will go away.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> I totally get that people love golf and the winters in the desert resorts are great for that. Just from looking, it appears that the Marriott Palm Desert resorts are really nice. How do those compare to Kierland for the 2 BRs?
> 
> We own in 2 golf resorts in CA and live in one and we do not golf! I just like the views. LOL


From a resort perspective, DSV1 feels more like a condo complex. Nothing spectacular. Nice rooms but the resort grounds are really the pools. There isn't anything overly special about the pools. Just pools. The pool towels are the standard thin garbage Marriott tries to dole out. DSV2 is about the same, but the feature pool is nicer than the main pool at DSV1. DSV1 and DSV2 share the same checkin, nothing special about the lobby.

WKV is just a step above. Pools are pools I guess, but they do have a 24 hour relaxation pool. What resort has a 24 hour pool? The vibe is just much more relaxed and the lobby is fantastic at WKV. The pool towels are not the thin garbage Marriott tries to pass off. Pool chairs are cushioned at the Westin where Marriott pool loungers are not. In the end, every resort is pretty much the same. A room, pools, lobby and grounds. They all just look a little different.


----------



## mjm1

dioxide45 said:


> From a resort perspective, DSV1 feels more like a condo complex. Nothing spectacular. Nice rooms but the resort grounds are really the pools. There isn't anything overly special about the pools. Just pools. The pool towels are the standard thin garbage Marriott tries to dole out. DSV2 is about the same, but the feature pool is nicer than the main pool at DSV1. DSV1 and DSV2 share the same checkin, nothing special about the lobby.
> 
> WKV is just a step above. Pools are pools I guess, but they do have a 24 hour relaxation pool. What resort has a 24 hour pool? The vibe is just much more relaxed and the lobby is fantastic at WKV. The pool towels are not the thin garbage Marriott tries to pass off. Pool chairs are cushioned at the Westin where Marriott pool loungers are not. In the end, every resort is pretty much the same. A room, pools, lobby and grounds. They all just look a little different.



We own both WKV and DSV1, and I have to agree. We love both resorts, but there is just a nicer feeling at WKV. It’s funny, we bought WKV resale primarily to trade to Hawaii, St John and Harborside, all of which we have done, but really love going to WKV as well.

We just went to a sales presentation today and learned that the WKV Premium 1BR (the larger side of the 2BR lock off, 81k SO’s) will be valued at 2,600 DC points in the combined program. That’s a decent value, but we think our best usage will be at WKV or the SVN system.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> Perhaps, but we have seen printed material from Marriott/Vistana that indicates which fees will go away.


The materials did not define what is an internal exchange for VSN. That was the point of my post.


----------



## TravelTime

mjm1 said:


> We own both WKV and DSV1, and I have to agree. We love both resorts, but there is just a nicer feeling at WKV. It’s funny, we bought WKV resale primarily to trade to Hawaii, St John and Harborside, all of which we have done, but really love going to WKV as well.
> 
> We just went to a sales presentation today and learned that the WKV Premium 1BR (the larger side of the 2BR lock off, 81k SO’s) will be valued at 2,600 DC points in the combined program. That’s a decent value, but we think our best usage will be at WKV or the SVN system.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike



2600 for 1 bedroom is good


----------



## DavidnRobin

TravelTime said:


> Just out of curiosity, how much did you pay for 122K SOs? I assume this is annual. Is that correct?



WKORV nor WKORVN were sold this way - I assume these may be Westin Flex purchased at WKORV/N.
Or something like a 1Bd annual and 1Bd EOY at the south resort which equals 121.5K SOs (?).

Don’t ask me how… LOL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> The materials did not define what is an internal exchange for VSN. That was the point of my post.


I get it, but I am also going by history of what Marriott offered when they allowed Marriott owners to enroll their weeks into the DC program. An internal exchange defined then was Marriott to Marriott. Now for exchange fee purposes it is Marriott to Marriott or Marriott to Vistana.. I see no reason it wouldn't bee Vistana to Vistana or Vistana to Marriott. This isn't speculation but more an educated guess.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> Many Vistana owners say MVC is complicated. I have both and think they are about the same in complexity. What makes you say MVC is complicated? I am referring to MVC DP system since owning an MVC resale week is super simple…use the week or trade on II.



Well - for starters how about the fact that you need to elect to convert your weeks to points in the prior year (and without knowing you can confirm a reservation)? For someone who comes from the Staroptions world where electing points is an afterthought as you confirm a stay that is less than 8 months away (and that election can be done until Dec 31 of the use year) that's actually a huge change. I don't know if I call it "complicated" or "inconvenient" but having to elect points 14-15 months before your Staroptions deadline is very different.

How about having to constantly look up points requirements in charts? Points requirements are different for every resort, even ones in the same city (like Orlando), even for ones across the street from each other (like Desert Springs Villas I and II) and can differ for each week of the year. Not to mention 6-7 view categories at some resorts (Crystal Shores comes to mind). No more remembering a few numbers like 148.100, 81,000 67,100, 95,700, 51,700, 44,000. Again, I don't know if I call it "complicated" or "inconvenient," but it's very different.

Or even things like having to look up inventory release calendars. Inventory of Friday, Saturday and Sunday being released on the same day. Some inventory being released at 13 months out then some more at 12 months out. Inventory for weeks and points released on different days. 

These are things you ultimately get used to (you have to, if you want to get the most out of the system), but people who are used to and like the simplicity of VSN may view them as overly complex.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> I get it, but I am also going by history of what Marriott offered when they allowed Marriott owners to enroll their weeks into the DC program. An internal exchange defined then was Marriott to Marriott. Now for exchange fee purposes it is Marriott to Marriott or Marriott to Vistana.. I see no reason it wouldn't bee Vistana to Vistana or Vistana to Marriott. This isn't speculation but more an educated guess.
> View attachment 52830


So two things I’m wondering about:

1) if the new program is launched in May/June/July (or whatever), does the new fee structure start immediately, or is it only after January 1st, 2023 since the fees are technically for next year? Just trying to decide how long I should wait to bank my SO for this year - but it would be nice to not pay the $89 to bank.

2) will the housekeeping fee go away for making an reservations in excess of your VOIs owned?  Not mentioned on the list. Can you make as many reservations as you want with DP (assume the same rule would apply for Vistana owners)?


----------



## Ken555

DanCali said:


> Well - for starters how about the fact that you need to elect to convert your weeks to points in the prior year (and without knowing you can confirm a reservation)? For someone who comes from the Staroptions world where electing points is an afterthought as you confirm a stay that is less than 8 months way (and that election can be done until Dec 31 of the use year) that's actually a huge change. I don't know if I call it "complicated" or "inconvenient" but having to elect points 14-15 months before your Staroptions deadline is very different.
> 
> How about having to constantly look up points requirements in charts? Points requirements are different for every resort, even ones in the same city (like Orlando), even for ones across the street from each other (like Desert Springs Villas I and II) and can differ for each week of the year. No more remembering a few numbers like 148.100, 81,000 67,100, 95,700, 51,700, 44,000. Again, I don't know if I call it "complicated" or "inconvenient," but it's very different.
> 
> Or even things like having to look up inventory release calendars. Inventory of Friday, Saturday and Sunday being released on the same day. Some inventory being released at 13 months out then some more at 12 months out.
> 
> These are things you ultimately get used to (or have to, if you want to get the most out of the system), but people who are used to and like the simplicity of VSN may view them as overly complex.



IIRC, @TravelTime has stated that she doesn’t use SO and when she has tried she hasn’t seen availability. I’m not sure how experienced she is with using SOs… tho it does sound like she’s familiar with and likes the DP network. This may be just a case of liking what one knows. @TravelTime, if I am mischaracterizing you in any way, I apologize and please clarify. It’s just good to know perspective.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## VacationForever

DanCali said:


> Well - for starters how about the fact that you need to elect to convert your weeks to points in the prior year (and without knowing you can confirm a reservation)? For someone who comes from the Staroptions world where electing points is an afterthought as you confirm a stay that is less than 8 months away (and that election can be done until Dec 31 of the use year) that's actually a huge change. I don't know if I call it "complicated" or "inconvenient" but having to elect points 14-15 months before your Staroptions deadline is very different.
> 
> How about having to constantly look up points requirements in charts? Points requirements are different for every resort, even ones in the same city (like Orlando), even for ones across the street from each other (like Desert Springs Villas I and II) and can differ for each week of the year. Not to mention 6-7 view categories in some resorts (Crystal Shores comes to mind). No more remembering a few numbers like 148.100, 81,000 67,100, 95,700, 51,700, 44,000. Again, I don't know if I call it "complicated" or "inconvenient," but it's very different.
> 
> Or even things like having to look up inventory release calendars. Inventory of Friday, Saturday and Sunday being released on the same day. Some inventory being released at 13 months out then some more at 12 months out.
> 
> These are things you ultimately get used to (or have to, if you want to get the most out of the system), but people who are used to and like the simplicity of VSN may view them as overly complex.



Very well said. Heck, I still have to look up every single time to figure when the booking opens up for 13 months and 12 months for both points and weeks reservations because they are all different, and then also calculate how many points are needed and I have been doing it for several years.  I can never remember.


----------



## jabberwocky

DanCali said:


> Well - for starters how about the fact that you need to elect to convert your weeks to points in the prior year (and without knowing you can confirm a reservation)? For someone who comes from the Staroptions world where electing points is an afterthought as you confirm a stay that is less than 8 months way (and that election can be done until Dec 31 of the use year) that's actually a huge change. I don't know if I call it "complicated" or "inconvenient" but having to elect points 14-15 months before your Staroptions deadline is very different.
> 
> How about having to constantly look up points requirements in charts? Points requirements are different for every resort, even ones in the same city (like Orlando), even for ones across the street from each other (like Desert Springs Villas I and II) and can differ for each week of the year. No more remembering a few numbers like 148.100, 81,000 67,100, 95,700, 51,700, 44,000. Again, I don't know if I call it "complicated" or "inconvenient," but it's very different.
> 
> Or even things like having to look up inventory release calendars. Inventory of Friday, Saturday and Sunday being released on the same day. Some inventory being released at 13 months out then some more at 12 months out.
> 
> These are things you ultimately get used to (or have to, if you want to get the most out of the system), but people who are used to and like the simplicity of VSN may view them as overly complex.


I’m with you on this. I’ve considered buying MVC resale points several times; however, the pricing and complexity relative to Vistana have dissuaded me each time. I like being able to have a spreadsheet with the standard nightly SO values handy so I can plan things well ahead without having to do a “dummy” booking with the villafinder.

I would just point out that with respect to the election deadline, I believe it is Sept. 30 of the prior year (longer for Presidential and Chairman I believe). This means you can book within Vistana using SO if your stay starts up to the end of May the following year, or with home resort privileges up until the following Sept. 30 before you would have to decide on electing for DP.


----------



## VacationForever

jabberwocky said:


> 2) will the housekeeping fee go away for making an reservations in excess of your VOIs owned?  Not mentioned on the list. Can you make as many reservations as you want with DP (assume the same rule would apply for Vistana owners)?


Unlimited DC reservations with no housekeeping fees - single, 2 nights and for whatever duration.


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> Well - for starters how about the fact that you need to elect to convert your weeks to points in the prior year (and without knowing you can confirm a reservation)? For someone who comes from the Staroptions world where electing points is an afterthought as you confirm a stay that is less than 8 months away (and that election can be done until Dec 31 of the use year) that's actually a huge change. I don't know if I call it "complicated" or "inconvenient" but having to elect points 14-15 months before your Staroptions deadline is very different.
> 
> How about having to constantly look up points requirements in charts? Points requirements are different for every resort, even ones in the same city (like Orlando), even for ones across the street from each other (like Desert Springs Villas I and II) and can differ for each week of the year. Not to mention 6-7 view categories at some resorts (Crystal Shores comes to mind). No more remembering a few numbers like 148.100, 81,000 67,100, 95,700, 51,700, 44,000. Again, I don't know if I call it "complicated" or "inconvenient," but it's very different.
> 
> Or even things like having to look up inventory release calendars. Inventory of Friday, Saturday and Sunday being released on the same day. Some inventory being released at 13 months out then some more at 12 months out. Inventory for weeks and points released on different days.
> 
> These are things you ultimately get used to (you have to, if you want to get the most out of the system), but people who are used to and like the simplicity of VSN may view them as overly complex.



I can’t remember something about the Vistana program. Don’t we have to do something by June every year?

I just googled it. I am completely confused with all these deadlines. Do we need to elect SOs by July 1st during the home resort use year? If so, how do you use your home resort in that same year if you already elected SOs? I know I did this once but I do not remember what I did.









						Ask the Expert: Usage Deadlines | Vistana™ Signature Experiences
					

In this edition of Ask the Expert, an Advisor will share important usage deadlines.




					www.vistana.com


----------



## rcv82

TravelTime said:


> I can’t remember something about the Vistana program. Don’t we have to do something by June every year?
> 
> I just googled it. I am completely confused with all these deadlines. Do we need to elect SOs by July 1st during the home resort use year? If so, how do you use your home resort in that same year if you already elected SOs? I know I did this once but I do not remember what I did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ask the Expert: Usage Deadlines | Vistana™ Signature Experiences
> 
> 
> In this edition of Ask the Expert, an Advisor will share important usage deadlines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vistana.com



The only deadline I’m aware of is that if you are not elite and want to bank any StarOptions into the following two years, you have to do it by July 1. The conversion to StarOptions is automatic. Book greater than. 8 months out and it is your home use. Less than 8 months it’s StarOptions. Unless you’re not in VSN. Then it’s always home use. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Eric B

jabberwocky said:


> I’m with you on this. I’ve considered buying MVC resale points several times; however, the pricing and complexity relative to Vistana have dissuaded me each time. I like being able to have a spreadsheet with the standard nightly SO values handy so I can plan things well ahead without having to do a “dummy” booking with the villafinder.
> 
> I would just point out that with respect to the election deadline, I believe it is Sept. 30 of the prior year (longer for Presidential and Chairman I believe). This means you can book within Vistana using SO if your stay starts up to the end of May the following year, or with home resort privileges up until the following Sept. 30 before you would have to decide on electing for DP.



With fixed weeks at WSJ, the home resort reservation can be confirmed at 18 months.  That would be before the election deadline for DP even for week 52.  I would expect that it’s set up the same way at the other Vistana resorts.


----------



## sf49fanv

cindylou said:


> Need advice re: authorizing resale Vistana, Marriott Chairman’s Club and Titanium, 13 months out reservation benefit. Looking for TUGgers who authorized resale Vistana weeks, and Marriott Destination Club Point villa owners with two or more weeks to advise and confirm what we were told
> 
> Went to our Vistana owner’s update last weekend and was told:
> 
> -       This will be the last opportunity to authorize resale Vistana units prior to Marriott reservation system merger in May (yeah, whatever)
> 
> -       New reservation/StarOptions/Marriott Destination Club Point system will address the disconnect between owners who purchased same number of points for different prices, meaning those who purchased 176,700 StarOptions at Maui will have higher priority or take less StarOptions getting a Maui reservation vs someone who purchased 176,700 StarOptions elsewhere, effectively devaluing certain properties.  For example, it may take twice the normal Lakeside Terrace StarOptions to get a studio at WKORV at the 8- month point
> 
> -       If we paid to authorize our 4 WKORV OF we would qualify for 5 star elite and Titanium level now and then after merger Marriott Chairman’s Club; Chairman’s Club will let us make our reservations 13 months out from check-in, 1 month earlier than owners who only own 1 week
> 
> We were offered:
> 
> -       Purchase 1 BR Oceanview WKORV South every other year and authorize our 4 WKORV Oceanfront resales for $25,667 ($10K to authorize first unit, then $5K for each one after)
> 
> -       81,000 StarOptions (7 nights in a 1BR at WKORV)
> 
> -       Makes us 5 star elite
> 
> -       1 Million wholesale (Marriott?) points for purchase option (4 certificates of 270K at $1875 each) until Dec 15, 2023; points good for 6 years
> 
> Our situation and thought process
> 
> -       For the last 15 years we had no interest in 5 star elite benefits
> 
> o                  We rarely use Marriott points for stays but sometimes do convert to airline miles
> 
> o                  We always use all our StarOptions to stay in one of our home resorts (WKORV)
> 
> o                   If we don’t use our WKORV weeks, we rent them out
> 
> -       We got tired of moving every week for 8 weeks at WKORV and could not bring our dog so we bought a condo up the hill from WKORV and will be here 4-6 months a year
> 
> -       We anticipate renting out all 4 weeks of WKORV
> 
> -       The 13-month reservation window from potential Chairman’s Club is appealing now to minimize the stress of 7 weeks of making reservations at exactly one year out
> 
> -       The Float Period waitlist could be useful since our 2 of our fixed weeks are 5 weeks apart and we might want to make the 4 weeks consecutive
> 
> -       Authorizing all the weeks would make future owner’s updates painless – they could offer nothing we don’t already have
> 
> -       We don’t think we’ve ever seen this low price to authorize 4 weeks
> 
> -       We are actually planning trips to Europe, Bora Bora and Maldives where Marriott points (and converting Villa options to points) could be very useful, but then again the best bang for our buck is probably renting out Maui weeks instead of converting to point for other travel
> 
> Obviously the above is probably not worth $25K, or is it?
> 
> Marriott Ocean Club owners with 2 or more weeks – is it true you get to make your reservations at 13 months out, while those with only 1 week have to wait for 12 months out?  We were shown a chart that indicated everyone could already reserve at 13 months out, so it appears our “advantage” would be shared by all owners anyway and therefore not an advantage at all.
> 
> Marriott Owners with 2 or more weeks – are you able to make reservations for 2 consecutive weeks in one phone call? We were told that is the case.  This would also reduce our stress.
> 
> 5-star Elites – do we really need any of those benefits if we are just going to rent out our units?
> 
> Vistana owners – have you regretted authorizing any of your resale weeks?
> 
> I bluffed and said we were not interested, hoping to see if they’d lower the prices, but they just brought us the Encore package instead, so we plunked down the $99 to keep our options open for another few days.  Encore package will be 1BR WKORV for $1894 for 6 days (or studio for $1594)
> 
> Any advice welcomed.  We need to back out of the Encore or make a move by Wed Feb





byeloe said:


> westin Flex is not the same as deeded at WKORV





byeloe said:


> westin Flex is not the same as deeded at WKORV



Thanks for correcting me.


----------



## emeryjre

Is there a thread that consolidates the "known" information about the upcoming integration.  

At 70 pages, with lots of posts contradicting each other, this thread, while interesting, is not as informative as I think it could be.  

Perhaps there is little "known" and I am asking for information that is not available.  

Thanks in advance.


----------



## sf49fanv

MICROZE said:


> Is it a Deeded-Week OR is it Westin-Flex?
> Can it be both?


You are correct. My mistake. It is Westin Flex.


----------



## MICROZE

sf49fanv said:


> What does this mean: This will be the last opportunity to *authorize resale Vistana units*


Strangely this is both TRUE & FALSE.

*TRUE*: Once the Full-Launch is rolled out; it will not be possible to enroll Vistana units into the VSN by purchasing Flex as new Flex sales will stop.
Economical. Purchase *$10K* of Flex to qualify 1-Contract, followed by *$5K* for each additional contract.

*FALSE*: There will always be opportunities to enroll Vistana-Resales [as well as Marriott-Resales] into the Marriott Destination-Program by purchasing DP's *[todays rate $15.92/Point]*.
Expensive. Purchase 2500-DCP *[10%-Discounted: $36K]* to qualify 1-Contract. 3500-DCP *[15%-Discounted: $48K] *for 2-Contracts. 5000-DCP *[20%-Discounted: $64K] *for 3-7-Contratcs.
If sales are to be believed, these prices could rise by 20% post Full-Launch.

*Incentives*: All of the above retros come with incentives like Bonvoy-Points and/or DCP-Points + Discounts. However, it still nets out to be north of $30K and up to $60K.
Each contract retro'd comes with an additional closing cost of approximately $1K.


----------



## TravelTime

emeryjre said:


> Is there a thread that consolidates the "known" information about the upcoming integration.
> 
> At 70 pages, with lots of posts contradicting each other, this thread, while interesting, is not as informative as I think it could be.
> 
> Perhaps there is little "known" and I am asking for information that is not available.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



I think this thread is it. I think it is mostly rumors and speculation. I have been following this thread and I have not gotten much in the way of facts.

The only thing that could be factual is how many DPs you can get depending on where you own. I believe someone may have summarized this but it might be buried in this thread. I was offered a little over 8300 DPs for my EOY WKOVRN OF 2BR in its home resort use years. The DPs my week was worth were printed on my account summary so it looked legit but who knows.

However, they told me I would need to buy 1000 DPs at $15 pp. No one knows if they will actually offer free or low cost enrollment once they actually launch. I was told no at the presentation but this might not be true since a salesman told me and he did not seem to really know. At first he said it would be free but then he asked his manager and the manager said I needed to buy 1000 DPs.

Do you have specific questions? Maybe you could list your questions and folks could try to answer them?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Wow. Those numbers are eye-popping (including Flex). Flex would almost double what we invested in our OF WKORVN EOY.  Although this may make sense for some people with more investment, this makes economically zero sense in our situation.

Unless something changes like free or no cost enrollment, we'll stick with what we have with SOs. $0 incremental investment for up to 2 weeks (Lockoff) in OF Maui.  Free is free. Similar to @jabberwocky I would rather spend another $10k toward another EOY resale to get more weeks if I felt compelled to add to our portfolio. But we are happy with what we have at this time.


----------



## emeryjre

TravelTime said:


> I think this thread is it. I think it is mostly rumors and speculation. I have been following this thread and I have not gotten much in the way of facts.
> 
> The only thing that could be factual is how many DPs you can get depending on where you own. I believe someone may have summarized this but it might be buried in this thread. I was offered a little over 8300 DPs for my EOY WKOVRN OF 2BR in its home resort use years. The DPs my week was worth was printed on my account summary so it looked legit but who knows.
> 
> However, they told me I would need to buy 1000 DPs at $15 pp. No one knows if they will actually offer free or low cost enrollment once they actually launch. I was told no at the presentation but this might not be true since a salesman told me and he did not seem to really know. At first he said it would be free but then he asked his manager and the manager said I needed to buy 1000 DPs.
> 
> Do you have specific questions? Maybe you could list your questions and folks could try to answer them?



Thanks for the reply.  I will hold off on asking questions until we are past the speculation phase.  I have kept up with the posts on this thread, but so many if, and, buts, hard to sort fact from fiction.


----------



## TravelTime

…


----------



## MICROZE

CalGalTraveler said:


> Wow. Those numbers are eye-popping (including Flex). Flex would almost double what we invested in our OF WKORVN EOY.  Although this may make sense for some people with more investment, this makes economically zero sense in our situation.
> 
> Unless something changes like free or no cost enrollment, we'll stick with what we have with SOs. $0 incremental investment for up to 2 weeks (Lockoff) in OF Maui.  Free is free. Similar to @jabberwocky I would rather spend another $10k toward another EOY resale to get more weeks if I felt compelled to add to our portfolio. But we are happy with what we have at this time.


Agree that FREE is always the best.

However, here is a scenario that Marriott will have to contend with for future sales.

Direct-Purchase: EY-2BR WKORV-N [148100-SO]: $100K+
Ebay-Sale: EY-2BR Harborside [148100-SO]: $1
Both enrolled for FREE within the NEW Marriott-DP System. Both accrue DCP-Points and enjoy the exact same benefits.
How will Marriott convince future buyers [short of them unaware of the amnesty history] to purchase Direct?

Marriott will have to choose between pissing-off

Loyal Direct-Purchase Owners VS
Why did I spend all this money when I could have ...?

Resale Purchase Owners
Why should I give you one more $?

Not sure they can satisfy both.


----------



## Eric B

MICROZE said:


> Agree that FREE is always the best.
> 
> However, here is a scenario that Marriott will have to contend with for future sales.
> 
> Direct-Purchase: EY-2BR WKORV-N [148100-SO]: $100K+
> Ebay-Sale: EY-2BR Harborside [148100-SO]: $1
> Both enrolled for FREE within the NEW Marriott-DP System. Both accrue DCP-Points and enjoy the exact same benefits.
> How will Marriott convince future buyers [short of them unaware of the amnesty history] to purchase Direct?
> 
> Marriott will have to choose between pissing-off
> 
> Loyal Direct-Purchase Owners VS
> Why did I spend all this money when I could have ...?
> 
> Resale Purchase Owners
> Why should I give you one more $?
> 
> Not sure they can satisfy both.



I’m sure they’ve given this a lot of thought.  Hopefully it was the same folks that chose to allow enrollment of pre-2010 resale weeks for a reasonable fee, which has evolved to being free for just doing a webinar.  If not, I may not need to enroll anything and just continue to use the VSN.


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> Thank you. This was helpful. I just read about it on Vistana. I think I see the advantage of Vistana banking over MVC banking. With Vistana, you can bank in the same year of your home resort year by July 1st so you would already know if you can get a home resort reservation. OTOH, with MVC, you need to decide on banking in the previous year. I should know all of this but I do not bank with Vistana anymore.



Not true on MVC.  Presidential and Chairman's have up until Aug 31 of current use year to bank, other levels have until June 30.


----------



## TravelTime

Deleted


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> Not true on MVC.  Presidential and Chairman's have up until Aug 31 of current use year to bank, other levels have until June 30.



Thanks for correcting me on this.


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> Thanks for correcting me on this.


You're welcome.


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> Yes, thank you. I was getting confused since many Vistana people on this thread say you need to bank with MVC in the previous year before you select a place to go. I will delete my post since it is inaccurate. I should know all this but I do not pay attention to banking deadlines. I used to be on top of this but not too much anymore. I do not bank with Vistana anymore bc SOs are not effective for me esp owning Maui. I bank well in advance with MVC. I think the complexity that some have mentioned about MVC is not realistic. To me, both systems are the same in complexity.


I think the discussion here has been around electing their Vistana VOI into DP in the prior year, not banking.

Election for deeded week into DP needs to be done prior to the usage year.

Once elected, normal MVC banking rules would apply.

So for your WKORVN week, you would have to elect to use your 2023 week into points by September 30, (unless presidential or chairman).


The DP points would be good for all of 2023; however, you would then have to bank them by June 30, 2023 to get usage beyond 2023 (again, elite levels will impact this).

Given that I usually like to book weeks 51/52, it would be a real risk for me to have to elect by October of the prior year without having any ideas as to whether my desired resorts would be available when I want them. It shouldn’t be a problem if I’m looking at a Spring Break or summer weeks and I can see what availability is like the following year before I have to elect.


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> I think the discussion here has been around electing their Vistana VOI into DP in the prior year, not banking.
> 
> Election for deeded week into DP needs to be done prior to the usage year.
> 
> Once elected, normal MVC banking rules would apply.
> 
> So for your WKORVN week, you would have to elect to use your 2023 week into points by September 30, (unless presidential or chairman).
> 
> 
> The DP points would be good for all of 2023; however, you would then have to bank them by June 30, 2023 to get usage beyond 2023 (again, elite levels will impact this).
> 
> Given that I usually like to book weeks 51/52, it would be a real risk for me to have to elect by October of the prior year without having any ideas as to whether my desired resorts would be available when I want them. It shouldn’t be a problem if I’m looking at a Spring Break or summer weeks and I can see what availability is like the following year before I have to elect.



I know I made an error. I thought I deleted that post since it had an error.  I do not ever get week 51/52 using my Vistana week. Do you own a week 51/52?

Maybe this is dumb, but I elect DPs way in advance of deadlines and bank right away too. Someone on TUG’s Marriott board recommended this. I forgot the rationale as to why this makes sense.


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> I know I made an error. I thought I deleted that post since it had an error.  I do not ever get week 51/52 using my Vistana week. Do you own a week 51/52?


Not on Maui. Those were sold as event weeks in Vistana so you likely can’t book with SO. I do own a fixed week 51 at SVR in Orlando which starts to float at the 10 month mark.  

Maui is our Spring Break and/or summer vacation destination. We now hit Scottsdale and Palm Springs for Christmas/NY since that is closer to family.  Given the size of the extended family and variance in incomes, Maui would not be feasible for a proper Christmas/NY get together.


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> Not on Maui. Those were sold as event weeks in Vistana so you likely can’t book with SO. I do own a fixed week 51 at SVR in Orlando which starts to float at the 10 month mark.
> 
> Maui is our Spring Break and/or summer vacation destination. We now hit Scottsdale and Palm Springs for Christmas/NY since that is closer to family.  Given the size of the extended family and variance in incomes, Maui would not be feasible for a proper Christmas/NY get together.



Can you exchange into a week 51 anywhere or just where you own?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

MICROZE said:


> Agree that FREE is always the best.
> 
> However, here is a scenario that Marriott will have to contend with for future sales.
> 
> Direct-Purchase: EY-2BR WKORV-N [148100-SO]: $100K+
> Ebay-Sale: EY-2BR Harborside [148100-SO]: $1
> Both enrolled for FREE within the NEW Marriott-DP System. Both accrue DCP-Points and enjoy the exact same benefits.
> How will Marriott convince future buyers [short of them unaware of the amnesty history] to purchase Direct?
> 
> Marriott will have to choose between pissing-off
> 
> Loyal Direct-Purchase Owners VS
> Why did I spend all this money when I could have ...?
> 
> Resale Purchase Owners
> Why should I give you one more $?
> 
> Not sure they can satisfy both.



Your point is well taken. There is nothing that says they must value Harborside the same as WKORV for enrollment.

We own a resale WKORV-N OF.  I won't be pissed off if there is large fee for enrolling. We just won't participate in DP.

We will be fine as long as we can book or rent out what we own. That's the bargain with resales - today we don't have access to Bonvoy. In exchange for these limitations, we saved tens of thousands for an incredible resort. However I do expect to be fully able to use the SOs that are part of our mandatory deed and to be able to offer that benefit to my buyers when I exit.  MVC DP may be fine without the inventory of resale Maui OF properties.

They won't admit it but all the developers need resale to keep the properties viable and enable owners to exit. They cannot afford to deedback all properties and cover MF if everyone walks. It also makes it hard for new sales / existing owner upgrades to make another sale when there is no market for exit.


----------



## MICROZE

Eric B said:


> I’m sure they’ve given this a lot of thought.  Hopefully it was the same folks that chose to allow enrollment of pre-2010 resale weeks for a reasonable fee, which has evolved to being free for just doing a webinar.  If not, I may not need to enroll anything and just continue to use the VSN.


Minor differences:

*Pre-2010*
Marriott did not spend $B to purchase another TS-Company.
Marriott-Owners were at a disadvantage [NO Internal-System to Exchange] and could only Exchange into other Marriott's via an External-System [INTERVAL] competing with Non-Marriott.
Marriott provided its owners with an Internal-Exchange system that was missing to exchange into the EXACT-SAME Marriott's [NO Net-New].

*VSN-Purchase*
Marriott spent Big $ to purchase VSN.
VSN-Owners have an existing Internal-Exchange system.
VSN-Owners now have the ability to expand their exchange options [Net-New].
Good news, I have an option to continue as-is [not spend $$$ to enroll] and exchange via the existing VSN. Including exchange into Marriott's via Interval.


----------



## Eric B

TravelTime said:


> Can you exchange into a week 51 anywhere or just where you own?



If you get lucky and one becomes available within 8 months, you can.  I own a fixed week 51 in WSJ and a couple of other fixed platinum plus weeks earlier in the year.  What I did this year was to switch the earlier weeks to SOs when I got to the 8-month point on their check in dates, then kept checking for week 51 or 52 availability to book as home weeks when the float period opened.  You would be competing with others like me with home floats at 12 months.

In any case, the way fixed week ownership works is that at 18 months, your reservation at your home resort in the type or unit you own is tentatively booked but needs to be confirmed by the 12 month point.  You don’t have a right to book week 51 anywhere else.


----------



## tstiv1996

CPNY said:


> What we think we know so far
> Conversion is an annual election only, it’s not permanent. (Vistana owners really win here)
> You can convert to DC points if you purchased directly from Vistana or made a purchase to enroll a resale
> You can convert only your whole ownership, if you own a two bedroom you have to convert the whole two bedroom
> You’ll pay a new VSN fee called a club fee which will remove other fees like banking, interval internal exchange fees, etc
> Depending on how many DC points your VSN ownerships convert to will determine your Marriott vacation club status
> Resale units not enrolled cannot convert (unofficially)
> If you do nothing you’ll get to use your ownership as you do today which includes star options usage in the VSN.
> 
> Sales lies: none of the above is true unless you buy another ownership TODAY!


This is the most important comment in this thread I think?


----------



## Eric B

MICROZE said:


> Minor differences:
> 
> *Pre-2010*
> Marriott did not spend $B to purchase another TS-Company.
> Marriott-Owners were at a disadvantage [NO Internal-System to Exchange] and could only Exchange into other Marriott's via an External-System [INTERVAL] competing with Non-Marriott.
> Marriott provided its owners with an Internal-Exchange system that was missing to exchange into the EXACT-SAME Marriott's [NO Net-New].
> 
> *VSN-Purchase*
> Marriott spent Big $ to purchase VSN.
> VSN-Owners have an existing Internal-Exchange system.
> VSN-Owners now have the ability to expand their exchange options [Net-New].



You could well be right and they may indeed believe that the sunk costs of the purchase justify treating Vistana resale owners differently.  My point, however, is that they might also be considering Vistana resale owners as potential sales prospects instead and treat them the way they treated and are treating Marriott resale owners as potential sales prospects.  Time will tell and the purchase cost is already spent.


----------



## MICROZE

Eric B said:


> You could well be right and they may indeed believe that the sunk costs of the purchase justify treating Vistana resale owners differently.  My point, however, is that they might also be considering Vistana resale owners as potential sales prospects instead and treat them the way they treated and are treating Marriott resale owners as potential sales prospects.  Time will tell and the purchase cost is already spent.


Current Marriot Resale-Owners [Post-2010] have to pay upwards of $35K to enroll a single contract.


----------



## Red elephant

MICROZE said:


> Agree that FREE is always the best.
> 
> However, here is a scenario that Marriott will have to contend with for future sales.
> 
> Direct-Purchase: EY-2BR WKORV-N [148100-SO]: $100K+
> Ebay-Sale: EY-2BR Harborside [148100-SO]: $1
> Both enrolled for FREE within the NEW Marriott-DP System. Both accrue DCP-Points and enjoy the exact same benefits.
> How will Marriott convince future buyers [short of them unaware of the amnesty history] to purchase Direct?
> 
> Marriott will have to choose between pissing-off
> 
> Loyal Direct-Purchase Owners VS
> Why did I spend all this money when I could have ...?
> 
> Resale Purchase Owners
> Why should I give you one more $?
> 
> Not sure they can satisfy both.


Haha their intention is to make more money not satisfy a minority of resale owners who already got what they paid for.  We shall see.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

CPNY said:


> Resale units not enrolled cannot convert (unofficially)



Agree. this is a great summary.

I believe resale units will always be able to convert. Why?

Because if resale cannot convert, the amount of enrolled inventory in DP will decline over time as owners sell or age out. At some point, it becomes a resale that someone must buy unless MVC plans to ROFR every deed and eliminate the resale market (doubt MVC could afford to do this).

Bottom line: Over time, a retail deed becomes a resale deed so resale deeds increase while retail deeds decline (if they don't add new properties.)

I heard that the average age of an MVC owner is about 55 - 60? If they exit in the next 10 - 15 years many of those VUIs become resales that cannot participate in DP according to this rule.

Hence they will likely offer resale promotions (aka amnesty) to get more prime inventory qualified into the DP program.


----------



## Red elephant

MICROZE said:


> Current Marriot Resale-Owners [Post-2010] have to pay upwards of $35K to enroll a single contract.
> [/QUOTE
> They will treat Vistana resale owners the same way as current Marriott resale owners.


----------



## MICROZE

CalGalTraveler said:


> Agree. this is a great summary.
> 
> I believe resale units will always be able to convert. Why?


This is 100% accurate.
Resale owners will always have an option to enroll [at a price].

Don't believe any sales-person driving fear to quickly enroll [before Full-Launch] or else.
Post Soft-Launch, there will still be an option for all resale-owners.


----------



## Red elephant

tstiv1996 said:


> This is the most important comment in this thread I think?


Totally agree. It should be reposted when someone has a question .


----------



## Red elephant

MICROZE said:


> This is 100% accurate.
> Resale owners will always have an option to enroll [at a price].
> 
> Don't believe any sales-person driving fear to quickly enroll [before Full-Launch] or else.
> Post Soft-Launch, there will still be an option for all resale-owners.


Correct they should tell us what price instead of us sitting hoping it’s free.


----------



## TravelTime

MICROZE said:


> Current Marriot Resale-Owners [Post-2010] have to pay upwards of $35K to enroll a single contract.



Might be true for an annual but you are buying more points when you spend $35,000 so the total cost per point, when you also include what you paid resale for the week you are enrolling, can average to $5 pp. I know some people who even averaged out to $4 pp. I bought a week direct from MVC in 2018 and my price pp was $5. 

The offer they made me this week to buy 1000 points averaged out to $6 pp even including how much I paid for WKOVRN on the resale market. I am sure I could have negotiated them down but I did not want to spend any more money to enroll right now. 

There are other Tuggers who spent $50K or $60 K for more points but they were allowed to enroll many weeks. @frank808 I believe you are an example of someone who has gotten incredible enrollment offers. If you do not mind sharing, how many weeks did you enroll, how much did you pay to enroll all those weeks and what was the cost pp after taking into account what you also paid resale for those weeks?


----------



## TravelTime

MICROZE said:


> This is 100% accurate.
> Resale owners will always have an option to enroll [at a price].
> 
> Don't believe any sales-person driving fear to quickly enroll [before Full-Launch] or else.
> Post Soft-Launch, there will still be an option for all resale-owners.



Agree…this is why I am in wait and see mode. There will always be a hybrid package offer that is a lot lower than paying retail prices for points.


----------



## TravelTime

tstiv1996 said:


> This is the most important comment in this thread I think?



I agree this is likely very accurate. It is also pretty obvious this will happen, almost a no brainer. Of course, if you already own an enrolled Vistana week you will be allowed to convert into DPs. Why not? The real question is what will be the cost to enroll resale weeks.


----------



## MICROZE

TravelTime said:


> Might be true for an annual but you are buying more points when you spend $35,000 so the total cost per point, when you also include what you paid resale for the week you are enrolling, can average to $5 pp. I know some people who even averaged out to $4 pp. I bought a week direct from MVC in 2018 and my price pp was $5.
> 
> The offer they made me this week to buy 1000 points averaged out to $6 pp even including how much I paid for WKOVRN on the resale market. I am sure I could have negotiated them down but I did not want to spend any more money to enroll right now.
> 
> There are other Tuggers who spent $50K or $60 K for more points but they were allowed to enroll many weeks. @frank808 I believe you are an example of someone who has gotten incredible enrollment offers. If you do not mind sharing, how many weeks did you enroll, how much did you pay to enroll all those weeks and what was the cost pp after taking into account what you also paid resale for those weeks?


Then it's a no-brainer.
Everyone wins. Sarcasm. 

I am also inheriting the worst of the worst Op-Ex.

NO Deeded-Week [35c - 45c/Point]. Points keep getting devalued.
Highest Maintenance-Fees [except Hawaii] at 65c/Point that rise consistently.
Instant-Deprectation: Vapor ware that's worthless [Purchase $15-Point --> Sale: $3/Point] in the resale market.

Here is a chart of MF YOY since 2012. *+50% increase in 10-Years*.


----------



## jabberwocky

CalGalTraveler said:


> I believe resale units will always be able to convert. Why?
> 
> Because if resale cannot convert, the amount of enrolled inventory in DP will decline over time as owners sell or age out. At some point, it becomes a resale that someone must buy unless MVC plans to ROFR every deed and eliminate the resale market (doubt MVC could afford to do this).
> 
> Bottom line: Over time, a retail deed becomes a resale deed so resale deeds increase while retail deeds decline (if they don't add new properties.)


I think you’ve pointed out a key and important issue, and one that has implications for VSN.

When SVN (predecessor to VSN) was launched by Starwood, existing Vistana deeded owners were given the opportunity to enroll for a relatively low price. I don’t recall how much my parents paid to join SVN - but I believe it was under $500 at the time. This gave a large influx of voluntary resort VOIs with SO.

As those voluntary resorts were resold, they lost their SO and were taken out of SVN and decreasing SO availability. Thus, Vistana needed a way to restore inventory that was being depleted; hence the ability to retro.

I don’t know the genesis of the retro program, but from what I have gleaned on TUG, retros used to require a purchase of $20k per VOI brought in, $8-10k of which had to be new money (net of any trade-ins).  Hawaii developer purchased weeks had higher minimums.

Over time the minimum needed to bring in a VOI has dropped substantially, with $10k for the initial VOI and $5k for additional now being required. The only reason I can think of for dropping the minimum is to keep up the voluntary resort inventory in the SO system (it also had the benefit of helping sell Flex, but the minimum was falling even before then).

Given the standard TUG advice for Vistana owners has been to buy a resale mandatory unit, I’m not sure how many owners here have developer purchased voluntary weeks, so we’ve been more focused on losing our VSN mandatory privileges.

The bigger threat I think comes from what may happen if MVC does allow resales to be requalified. Would they also restore a Vistana voluntary resort into VSN, or would it only be allowed to play in the DP sandbox? If they don’t allow resales to be restored into VSN, over time that inventory will shrink, and all that may be left are the mandatory resorts (which are some of the more desirable).

This admittedly is a long ways off before it becomes a serious problem, but for those of us with longer travel horizons (I hope to travel for another 30 years at least) it is something to think about.


----------



## TravelTime

MICROZE said:


> Then it's a no-brainer.
> Everyone wins. Sarcasm.
> 
> I am also inheriting the worst of the worst Op-Ex.
> 
> NO Deeded-Week [35c - 45c/Point]. Points keep getting devalued.
> Highest Maintenance-Fees [except Hawaii] at 65c/Point that rise consistently.
> Instant-Deprectation: Vapor ware that's worthless [Purchase $15-Point --> Sale: $3/Point] in the resale market.
> 
> Here is a chart of MF YOY since 2012. *+50% increase in 10-Years*.
> View attachment 52909
> 
> View attachment 52910



No that is not what I meant. Let me repeat again…For enrolled owners, it is pretty obvious that they will be allowed to convert. That was told to me at the sales presentation. I believe this because it is fair. If you paid $40K to $80K direct for a Vistana week or SOs, you should be allowed to participate in the combined program. 

OTOH, the enrollment process and cost for resale owners has not been announced officially. 

Technically no one loses though. You can still use home week, SOs or rent it out like today.


----------



## MICROZE

TravelTime said:


> No that is not what I meant. Let me repeat again…For enrolled owners, it is pretty obvious that they will be allowed to convert. That was told to me at the sales presentation. I believe this because it is fair. If you paid $40K to $80K direct for a Vistana week or SOs, you should be allowed to participate in the combined program.
> 
> OTOH, the enrollment process and cost for resale owners has not been announced officially.
> 
> Technically no one loses though. You can still use home week, SOs or rent it out like today.


I was told the following by multiple people [Marriott In-Person, Marriott-Corp/Virtual-Teams-Call & Vistana-Corp]

Direct-Purchase/Retro-Owners are eligible to participate in the new Marriott DCP-System for a fee.
NOTE: Eligible is not automatically free.
Enrollment-Fee is waived with a purchase [recent purchases possibly less than 12-Months old qualify].

Resale-Owners will be eligible to participate if they retro their weeks.
NOTE: Most likely the Retro-Package-Purchase would suffice to also enroll in the new DCP-System.

*BTW*: I don't disagree that one could purchase DCP and enroll multiple resale-units [lowering the Price/Point]. I have done this [purchased Hybrid-Packages multiple times].
However, not everyone is looking to drop $35K [single contract even if EOY] even if they inherit net-new DCP.

I am still looking for someone who managed to negotiate the DCP Price/Point down.
In 10+ years I have negotiated incentives [Additional-Bonvoy, More-Bonus-DCP, Encore-Credit, Recent-Stay-Credit, Bigger-Discount-For-Larger-Package] but not lower DCP-Price.
When I walk away and they don't call me back is when I know I pushed them to the limit.

In response to your earlier Q
*Vistana*: Nothing special that other Vistana owners cannot also avail of today.
I enrolled 6 x 2BR-WKV-PLAT+ [148.1K Each] [Under 900K-SO] for $40K. Qualified for 5-Star/Bonvoy-Platinum.
Received a few benefits. Combined ~1M-Bonvoy + Option-To-Purchase 12 x 330K Bonvoy-Certs [4M-Bonvoy] @ $0.069c/Point.
Bad part is we inherited Flex [High-MF]. This simply adds to the 1.3M-SO and is less than 10% of our portfolio.
Could have done it slightly cheaper [$35K] as I did it in 2-Lots [3-Each].
We purchased these via RedWeek for ~$12K-Each [some $14K some $10K].

*Marriott*
Since our MKO 2VR-EY-IV was purchased resale Pre-2010 we paid ~$1K [$1495 - $595-Credit] to enroll.
We purchased a couple of Hybrid-Packages [no resale retro] that worked out to $6.97 & $6.59 respectively.


----------



## GregT

TravelTime said:


> Might be true for an annual but you are buying more points when you spend $35,000 so the total cost per point, when you also include what you paid resale for the week you are enrolling, can average to $5 pp. I know some people who even averaged out to $4 pp. I bought a week direct from MVC in 2018 and my price pp was $5.
> 
> The offer they made me this week to buy 1000 points averaged out to $6 pp even including how much I paid for WKOVRN on the resale market. I am sure I could have negotiated them down but I did not want to spend any more money to enroll right now.
> 
> There are other Tuggers who spent $50K or $60 K for more points but they were allowed to enroll many weeks. @frank808 I believe you are an example of someone who has gotten incredible enrollment offers. If you do not mind sharing, how many weeks did you enroll, how much did you pay to enroll all those weeks and what was the cost pp after taking into account what you also paid resale for those weeks?


I am not @frank808 (and I look forward to seeing him again soon) but I bought a week direct back in Fall 2020.  I bought an Aruba week that was work 4,425 points for $37K.   That allowed me to enroll 5.5 unenrolled weeks (three MOC weeks, 1 Ko Olina, one Shadow Ridge and a Willow).  

The Shadow and Willow are dedicated II traders. My Aruba week is a dedicated points generator. I like my Hawaii weeks for personal usage but I could envision redeeming Ko Olina for points and booking Waiohai or WPORV. So it might become a Hawaii points week.

I don’t know if this helps buts it’s my experience. The total points enrolled don’t really matter because I never expect to redeem them for points.  

I did this because I ate a number of MOC rentals during COVID and I realized I would benefit from abilit to convert to points. But I ended up renting the 2021 weeks so it may have been unnecessary.

But my Aruba week is now my Caribbean points trader and my Ko Olina is now my Hawaii points trader - which means I have too many weeks.

Best,

Greg


----------



## TravelTime

GregT said:


> I am not @frank808 (and I look forward to seeing him again soon) but I bought a week direct back in Fall 2020.  I bought an Aruba week that was work 4,425 points for $37K.   That allowed me to enroll 5.5 unenrolled weeks (three MOC weeks, 1 Ko Olina, one Shadow Ridge and a Willow).
> 
> The Shadow and Willow are dedicated II traders. My Aruba week is a dedicated points generator. I like my Hawaii weeks for personal usage but I could envision redeeming Ko Olina for points and booking Waiohai or WPORV. So it might become a Hawaii points week.
> 
> I don’t know if this helps buts it’s my experience. The total points enrolled don’t really matter because I never expect to redeem them for points.
> 
> I did this because I ate a number of MOC rentals during COVID and I realized I would benefit from abilit to convert to points. But I ended up renting the 2021 weeks so it may have been unnecessary.
> 
> But my Aruba week is now my Caribbean points trader and my Ko Olina is now my Hawaii points trader - which means I have too many weeks.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



I tend to look at the cost per point as how much you paid to get the new points plus how much you already paid for the resale weeks you are enrolling divided by how many total points you now have plus those that are convertible. So if you paid $8 pp for Aruba and they let you enroll 5.5 weeks, that is really cheap.


----------



## TravelTime

MICROZE said:


> I was told the following by multiple people [Marriott In-Person, Marriott-Corp/Virtual-Teams-Call & Vistana-Corp]
> 
> Direct-Purchase/Retro-Owners are eligible to participate in the new Marriott DCP-System for a fee.
> NOTE: Eligible is not automatically free.
> Enrollment-Fee is waived with a purchase [recent purchases possibly less than 12-Months old qualify].
> 
> Resale-Owners will be eligible to participate if they retro their weeks.
> NOTE: Most likely the Retro-Package-Purchase would suffice to also enroll in the new DCP-System.
> 
> *BTW*: I don't disagree that one could purchase DCP and enroll multiple resale-units [lowering the Price/Point]. I have done this [purchased Hybrid-Packages multiple times].
> However, not everyone is looking to drop $35K [single contract even if EOY] even if they inherit net-new DCP.
> 
> I am still looking for someone who managed to negotiate the DCP Price/Point down.
> In 10+ years I have negotiated incentives [Additional-Bonvoy, More-Bonus-DCP, Encore-Credit, Recent-Stay-Credit, Bigger-Discount-For-Larger-Package] but not lower DCP-Price.
> When I walk away and they don't call me back is when I know I pushed them to the limit.
> 
> In response to your earlier Q
> *Vistana*: Nothing special that other Vistana owners cannot also avail of today.
> I enrolled 6 x 2BR-WKV-PLAT+ [148.1K Each] [Under 900K-SO] for $40K. Qualified for 5-Star/Bonvoy-Platinum.
> Received a few benefits. Combined ~1M-Bonvoy + Option-To-Purchase 12 x 330K Bonvoy-Certs [4M-Bonvoy] @ $0.069c/Point.
> Bad part is we inherited Flex [High-MF]. This simply adds to the 1.3M-SO and is less than 10% of our portfolio.
> Could have done it slightly cheaper [$35K] as I did it in 2-Lots [3-Each].
> We purchased these via RedWeek for ~$12K-Each [some $14K some $10K].
> 
> *Marriott*
> Since our MKO 2VR-EY-IV was purchased resale Pre-2010 we paid ~$1K [$1595 - $595-Credit] to enroll.
> We purchased a couple of Hybrid-Packages [no resale retro] that worked out to $6.97 & $6.59 respectively.



Here is what would make no sense to me. If you already own a Vistana enrolled week that you bought direct from Vistana…and the new program is a combined Vistana/MVC…how could MVC say your enrolled Vistana week is not enrolled automatically in the new combined program?

At the sales presentation this week, the sales person told me if you bought a week direct from Vistana, it is already enrolled in the new program and you can elect DPs with no additional cost. He said I would need to buy 1000 DPs to enroll my resale week. This seems logical to me although I am still hoping MVC may still end up giving Vistana resale owners of mandatory weeks a better deal. However, that is wishful thinking on my part.

I still do have many questions about the details of the integrated program. I wonder if MVC will end up getting rid of VSE/SOs. If so, then I think they will need to have a reasonable offer for Vistana mandatory resale owners because we can exchange with SOs. They usually do not take away something you already own. Usually they grandfather in. OTOH, since voluntary resale owners can’t use SOs, I do not see a reason for MVC to let them enroll inexpensively in the new integrated program. 

Many people say MVC can’t get rid of SOs but I am still skeptical. However, I have never read the legal documents. If I were MVC management, I would want to get rid of VSE/SOs because having two programs plus II is confusing and probably a pain to manage.


----------



## MICROZE

TravelTime said:


> Here is what would make no sense to me. If you already own a Vistana enrolled week that you bought direct from Vistana…and the new program is a combined Vistana/MVC…how could MVC say your enrolled Vistana week is not enrolled automatically in the new combined program?


This is the BS I was given by everyone from Marriott. In fairness, the Vistana people are clueless and did not say this.

I asked the exact same Q: _"Why do I need to pay to enroll my Direct-Purchased Vistana-Weeks. I already paid north of $100K to Vistana?"_
*Quotes*
_"Marriott purchased [did NOT merge] Vistana for $B."
"Vistana-Owners [Direct/Enrolled/Resale] need to Pay-To-Play in the new system."
"The DCP-System opens up much more access to Marriott-Inventory for which you did not pay". "This is an enhanced benefit for which you need to pay"_

There may be some truth, but I believe more an incentive to use fear to sell more.
We will know for sure in a couple of months. Hopefully sooner.

I was assured that nothing would be taken away and that I could continue to use my VSN as-is.
However, down the road [many years later] things could change.


----------



## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> Which developer bought timeshare do you own?


I no longer own a developer. I originally purchased Harborside pre construction. I then added resale units and since sold the Harborside. So I no longer have a developer purchase in my account. All I’m saying is, not all of us bought only resale, some have a lot of money to vistana at one point….sadly..


----------



## CPNY

CalGalTraveler said:


> Agree. this is a great summary.
> 
> I believe resale units will always be able to convert. Why?
> 
> Because if resale cannot convert, the amount of enrolled inventory in DP will decline over time as owners sell or age out. At some point, it becomes a resale that someone must buy unless MVC plans to ROFR every deed and eliminate the resale market (doubt MVC could afford to do this).
> 
> Bottom line: Over time, a retail deed becomes a resale deed so resale deeds increase while retail deeds decline (if they don't add new properties.)
> 
> I heard that the average age of an MVC owner is about 55 - 60? If they exit in the next 10 - 15 years many of those VUIs become resales that cannot participate in DP according to this rule.
> 
> Hence they will likely offer resale promotions (aka amnesty) to get more prime inventory qualified into the DP program.


Interesting. If that’s the case then resale units for WKV, WKORV, and other high DC value mandatory units will double in price.


----------



## TravelTime

MICROZE said:


> This is the BS I was given by everyone from Marriott. In fairness, the Vistana people are clueless and did not say this.
> 
> I asked the exact same Q: _"Why do I need to pay to enroll my Direct-Purchased Vistana-Weeks. I already paid north of $100K to Vistana?"_
> *Quotes*
> _"Marriott purchased [did NOT merge] Vistana for $B."
> "Vistana-Owners [Direct/Enrolled/Resale] need to Pay-To-Play in the new system."
> "The DCP-System opens up much more access to Marriott-Inventory for which you did not pay". "This is an enhanced benefit for which you need to pay"_
> 
> There may be some truth, but I believe more an incentive to use fear to sell more.
> We will know for sure in a couple of months. Hopefully sooner.
> 
> I was assured that nothing would be taken away and that I could continue to use my VSN as-is.
> However, down the road [many years later] things could change.



Wow that is shocking and unfair. I would be very upset if I paid $100K (or even less) to purchase direct and they said I could not elect DPs for no cost. If this is the case, then it is much better to buy and enroll a resale Vistana week than to own a Vistana direct week. To me that makes no sense. What did they say they will charge a direct Vistana owner for enrollment? Is it a lot or a small enrollment fee?


----------



## MICROZE

TravelTime said:


> Wow that is shocking and unfair. I would be very upset if I paid $100K (or even less) to purchase direct and they said I could not elect DPs for no cost. If this is the case, then it is much better to buy and enroll a resale Vistana week than to own a Vistana direct week. To me that makes no sense. What did they say they will charge a direct Vistana owner for enrollment? Is it a lot or a small enrollment fee?


*Enroll*
They did not disclose the enrollment fee.
It seemed like we needed to purchase something [not sure how many DP] to qualify for enrollment.

*Retro*
As for retro, I would like to believe that Marriott would lower the bar for retro-entry from the current $35K/1-Contract.
However, on APR-14-2022, I was shown an email which stated that Marriott was reopening the Retro-Program.
This is most likely to drive a flood of panic retro's prior to the Full-Launch.
2500-DCP/1-Contract, 3500-DCP/2-Contracts, 5000-DCP/3-7-Contracts.
If they plan to lower the entry-bar at Full-Launch, they are likely to piss-off people who opted for this retro.
In 2 short months these people are not going to be too happy. Which is why I believe that Marriott will stick with this offer.


----------



## DanCali

CalGalTraveler said:


> I believe resale units will always be able to convert. Why?
> 
> Because if resale cannot convert, the amount of enrolled inventory in DP will decline over time as owners sell or age out. At some point, it becomes a resale that someone must buy unless MVC plans to ROFR every deed and eliminate the resale market (doubt MVC could afford to do this).
> 
> Bottom line: Over time, a retail deed becomes a resale deed so resale deeds increase while retail deeds decline (if they don't add new properties.)
> 
> I heard that the average age of an MVC owner is about 55 - 60? If they exit in the next 10 - 15 years many of those VUIs become resales that cannot participate in DP according to this rule.
> 
> Hence they will likely offer resale promotions (aka amnesty) to get more prime inventory qualified into the DP program.




I don't think they care about inventory in the DC. Nobody really knows what the inventory is. If you can't book something you don't know if it's lack of adequate inventory or if someone beat you to it. No matter how much or little inventory there is, they can still sell points at ~$15/point based on the promise of access to 90+ resorts.

Yes, there will be promotions to enroll resale weeks. Vistana has had them for at least as long as I've been on tug, and so did Marriott since the launch of the DC. But it's not because they care about inventory. It's because they convince people to pay $30K+ so they can toggle a virtual "enrolled" switch from "off" to "on" in their account and get them to buy some points they don't need that Marriott picked up the prior month at ROFR at 10% of retail price. That's all a pretty high margin business...


----------



## TravelTime

And if they need any inventory, can’t they just get it through ROFR cheaply and then resell it as trust points?


----------



## MICROZE

DanCali said:


> It's because they convince people to pay $30K so they can toggle a virtual "enrolled" switch from "off" to "on" in their account and get them to buy some points they don't need that Marriott picked up the prior month at ROFR at 10% of retail price. That's all a pretty high margin business...


So true.

It really is a flip of an electron.
The unit has already been paid for by a previous owner.
The same is being resold for pennies on the dollar and Marriott stands to collect tolls [$30K] each time it switches hands.
Need to buy some VAC.


----------



## VacationForever

jabberwocky said:


> When SVN (predecessor to VSN) was launched by Starwood, existing Vistana deeded owners were given the opportunity to enroll for a relatively low price. I don’t recall how much my parents paid to join SVN - but I believe it was under $500 at the time. This gave a large influx of voluntary resort VOIs with SO.



Was this offer given only to developer-purchased weeks?


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> I think you’ve pointed out a key and important issue, and one that has implications for VSN.
> 
> When SVN (predecessor to VSN) was launched by Starwood, existing Vistana deeded owners were given the opportunity to enroll for a relatively low price. I don’t recall how much my parents paid to join SVN - but I believe it was under $500 at the time. This gave a large influx of voluntary resort VOIs with SO.
> 
> As those voluntary resorts were resold, they lost their SO and were taken out of SVN and decreasing SO availability. Thus, Vistana needed a way to restore inventory that was being depleted; hence the ability to retro.
> 
> I don’t know the genesis of the retro program, but from what I have gleaned on TUG, retros used to require a purchase of $20k per VOI brought in, $8-10k of which had to be new money (net of any trade-ins).  Hawaii developer purchased weeks had higher minimums.
> 
> Over time the minimum needed to bring in a VOI has dropped substantially, with $10k for the initial VOI and $5k for additional now being required. The only reason I can think of for dropping the minimum is to keep up the voluntary resort inventory in the SO system (it also had the benefit of helping sell Flex, but the minimum was falling even before then).
> 
> Given the standard TUG advice for Vistana owners has been to buy a resale mandatory unit, I’m not sure how many owners here have developer purchased voluntary weeks, so we’ve been more focused on losing our VSN mandatory privileges.
> 
> The bigger threat I think comes from what may happen if MVC does allow resales to be requalified. Would they also restore a Vistana voluntary resort into VSN, or would it only be allowed to play in the DP sandbox? If they don’t allow resales to be restored into VSN, over time that inventory will shrink, and all that may be left are the mandatory resorts (which are some of the more desirable).
> 
> This admittedly is a long ways off before it becomes a serious problem, but for those of us with longer travel horizons (I hope to travel for another 30 years at least) it is something to think about.


I beleive Visana did something for Los Cabos Baja Point owners when they picked up that property just a few years ago. There was someone here that reported an offer to bring their ownership into VSN. I don't know what the cost was, if any.


----------



## TravelTime

It’s interesting how active this thread is on Vistana but there is little mention of the integration on the Marriott board. Is there any impact on Marriott people?


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> It’s interesting how active this thread is on Vistana but there is little mention of the integration on the Marriott board. Is there any impact on Marriott people?


I think this impacts Vistana owners much more than Marriott owners. For enrolled Marriott owners, they will just have some new resorts that they might be able to book (as long as a Vistana owner elected DC points). Nothing really changes how a Marriott owner would use their ownership or points. The change is much more drastic for a Vistana owner.


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> It’s interesting how active this thread is on Vistana but there is little mention of the integration on the Marriott board. Is there any impact on Marriott people?



Those Marriott snobs don't care.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> Those Marriott snobs don't care.



I do not think there are any snobs who own timeshares. If anything, I keep it a secret to avoid ridicule. LOL


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> I think this impacts Vistana owners much more than Marriott owners. For enrolled Marriott owners, they will just have some new resorts that they might be able to book (as long as a Vistana owner elected DC points). Nothing really changes how a Marriott owner would use their ownership or points. The change is much more drastic for a Vistana owner.



A possible downside for MVC owners might be more competition for the most desirable resorts. This could make it more critical to stay up or wake up right when the booking window opens. I think Vistana owners are worried about the same thing.


----------



## remowidget

MICROZE said:


> Strangely this is both TRUE & FALSE.
> 
> *TRUE*: Once the Full-Launch is rolled out; it will not be possible to enroll Vistana units into the VSN by purchasing Flex as new Flex sales will stop.
> Economical. Purchase *$10K* of Flex to qualify 1-Contract, followed by *$5K* for each additional contract.
> 
> *FALSE*: There will always be opportunities to enroll Vistana-Resales [as well as Marriott-Resales] into the Marriott Destination-Program by purchasing DP's *[todays rate $15.92/Point]*.
> Expensive. Purchase 2500-DCP *[10%-Discounted: $36K]* to qualify 1-Contract. 3500-DCP *[15%-Discounted: $48K] *for 2-Contracts. 5000-DCP *[20%-Discounted: $64K] *for 3-7-Contratcs.
> If sales are to be believed, these prices could rise by 20% post Full-Launch.
> 
> *Incentives*: All of the above retros come with incentives like Bonvoy-Points and/or DCP-Points + Discounts. However, it still nets out to be north of $30K and up to $60K.
> Each contract retro'd comes with an additional closing cost of approximately $1K.



I think there is a real possibility that a different enrollment could happen. While I am sure you are correct about being able to enroll vistana weeks in the future, will they still be Vistana weeks? It's very possible that enrolling could move your resale ownership into MVC Destination Club and you would have DPs. Voluntary/mandatory status would go away because they wouldn't be vistana weeks anymore.  If this were to happen, you would be paying Marriott maintenance fees rather than Vistana week ownership maintenance fees. I'm guessing Marriott maintenance would be more expensive.


----------



## jabberwocky

VacationForever said:


> Was this offer given only to developer-purchased weeks?


To be honest I don’t know. My parents did buy developer (SVR) way back in early 1996 (could have been 1995) - not sure how many resale units were out there at the time as that was an expansionary period. Back then “Vistana” really did just mean Vistana as they only had a couple of locations operating. I believe my parents paid $11k for their 2BR back then.

Funny part is, up until around 2016 my dad was still using II (and paying an exchange fee) to rebook himself back into SVR even though he had SO.That stopped after I showed him how easy it was to exchange using SO and how he could extend their trip by a few days since they liked to go during slower periods.


----------



## jabberwocky

remowidget said:


> I think there is a real possibility that a different enrollment could happen. While I am sure you are correct about being able to enroll vistana weeks in the future, will they still be Vistana weeks? It's very possible that enrolling could move your resale ownership into MVC Destination Club and you would have DPs. Voluntary/mandatory status would go away because they wouldn't be vistana weeks anymore.  If this were to happen, you would be paying Marriott maintenance fees rather than Vistana week ownership maintenance fees. I'm guessing Marriott maintenance would be more expensive.


I can see the enrolled resale voluntary weeks not being part of VSN in the future - but the mandatory weeks have to be in VSN. It’s written into the underlying covenants.

Maintenance fees are paid based on the TS Association you are in to cover the expenses of running the resort. I don’t think there would be a difference in MF because you are in Marrriott vs. Vistana if it is at the same resort.


----------



## VacationForever

jabberwocky said:


> To be honest I don’t know. My parents did buy developer (SVR) way back in early 1996 (could have been 1995) - not sure how many resale units were out there at the time as that was an expansionary period. Back then “Vistana” really did just mean Vistana as they only had a couple of locations operating. I believe my parents paid $11k for their 2BR back then.
> 
> Funny part is, up until around 2016 my dad was still using II (and paying an exchange fee) to rebook himself back into SVR even though he had SO.That stopped after I showed him how easy it was to exchange using SO and how he could extend their trip by a few days since they liked to go during slower periods.



I am familiar with SVR. I bought in 1996 pre-constuction and was offered enrollment into SVN when it was first formed.  I think initially it was something like $299.  I didn't take up the offer and every year they would send us mail with the invitation again, with enrollment price going up each year.  I think it was around 2011 when they sent me final offer of $599 and that they would no longer make me the offer again.  I accepted it then.  When they had the huge special assessment on SVR in 2008, they offered all older phases of SVR owners, including resale owners, to join SVN as an incentive to lessen the blow.  Cascade and Lakes resale owners did not get the offer because they were able to differentiate between developer bought weeks as they were later purchases.  I also paid $11K and as a 2br l/o in Lakes phase, I get 95700 SOs for the week.  My fixed week is in high season but it floats 1-52, so I am anxious and curious as to what my week will convert to in DC.


----------



## remowidget

jabberwocky said:


> I can see the enrolled resale voluntary weeks not being part of VSN in the future - but the mandatory weeks have to be in VSN. It’s written into the underlying covenants.
> 
> Maintenance fees are paid based on the TS Association you are in to cover the expenses of running the resort. I don’t think there would be a difference in MF because you are in Marrriott vs. Vistana if it is at the same resort.


What I'm trying to say is they could take your week and give you trust points instead as the way of bringing your week into the system. The week would be removed from VSN circulation. Mandatory weeks would not be in VSN, because now they would be owned by the Marriott DCP Trust.

I own Lagunamar, so here is my example for a Platinum 2 bedroom lockoff unit.
My 2022 Vistana Maintenance was $1653.92 per week, plus VSN fees.
Rumor has it, this will get 4950 DC points, which would be:
$0.62796×4,950 = $3108.40
The price difference would be less for gold week owners as they would likely get less DC points.

They could do this for post 2010 Marriott resale weeks as well. I suspect they have been moving weeks into the trust for years as they aquire take backs, foreclosures, and ROFRs.

By the way, they already own over 5,000 Lagunamar weeks. I got this from our owners report. I'm assuming these will be directly moved into Marriott.


----------



## TravelTime

remowidget said:


> What I'm trying to say is they could take your week and give you trust points instead as the way of bringing your week into the system. The week would be removed from VSN circulation. Mandatory weeks would not be in VSN, because now they would be owned by the Marriott DCP Trust.
> 
> I own Lagunamar, so here is my example for a Platinum 2 bedroom lockoff unit.
> My 2022 Vistana Maintenance was $1653.92 per week, plus VSN fees.
> Rumor has it, this will get 4950 DC points, which would be:
> $0.62796×4,950 = $3108.40
> The price difference would be less for gold week owners as they would likely get less DC points.
> 
> They could do this for post 2010 Marriott resale weeks as well. I suspect they have been moving weeks into the trust for years as they aquire take backs, foreclosures, and ROFRs.
> 
> By the way, they already own over 5,000 Lagunamar weeks. I got this from our owners report. I'm assuming these will be directly moved into Marriott.
> View attachment 52920



Since you still own the underlying week, wouldn’t MFs stay the same? I have two enrolled MVC weeks that I can elect DPs for. I still pay MFs based on the week and not the DP rate for these weeks. It would be an incredible deal if you could elect 4950 DPs yet still only pay the Lagunamar MF. Is it a developer-purchased week?


----------



## MICROZE

remowidget said:


> What I'm trying to say is they could take your week and give you trust points instead as the way of bringing your week into the system. The week would be removed from VSN circulation. Mandatory weeks would not be in VSN, because now they would be owned by the Marriott DCP Trust.
> 
> I own Lagunamar, so here is my example for a Platinum 2 bedroom lockoff unit.
> My 2022 Vistana Maintenance was $1653.92 per week, plus VSN fees.
> Rumor has it, this will get 4950 DC points, which would be:
> $0.62796×4,950 = $3108.40
> The price difference would be less for gold week owners as they would likely get less DC points.
> 
> They could do this for post 2010 Marriott resale weeks as well. I suspect they have been moving weeks into the trust for years as they aquire take backs, foreclosures, and ROFRs.
> 
> By the way, they already own over 5,000 Lagunamar weeks. I got this from our owners report. I'm assuming these will be directly moved into Marriott.
> View attachment 52920


We own 3 x EOY-2BR-WLR-PLAT+ which has the lowest MF in the entire VSN-Network.
Has been excellent value. 148.1K-SO exchanged 4-Summers into 12-Nights Harborside [153.1K-SO] and more.
Excellent Trading-Power. Multiple Hawaii-Trips [2/3-WKS-Each] via INTERVAL [Studio/1BR] which resulted in ~$120-$150/Night in a 2BR Maui, Princeville.

If this were to happen, our MF would double overnight.
Hope we have the option to forego the 4950-DP and stay with the 1481.K-SO for ~$1650-MF.


----------



## VacationForever

remowidget said:


> What I'm trying to say is they could take your week and give you trust points instead as the way of bringing your week into the system. The week would be removed from VSN circulation. Mandatory weeks would not be in VSN, because now they would be owned by the Marriott DCP Trust.
> 
> I own Lagunamar, so here is my example for a Platinum 2 bedroom lockoff unit.
> My 2022 Vistana Maintenance was $1653.92 per week, plus VSN fees.
> Rumor has it, this will get 4950 DC points, which would be:
> $0.62796×4,950 = $3108.40
> The price difference would be less for gold week owners as they would likely get less DC points.
> 
> They could do this for post 2010 Marriott resale weeks as well. I suspect they have been moving weeks into the trust for years as they aquire take backs, foreclosures, and ROFRs.
> 
> By the way, they already own over 5,000 Lagunamar weeks. I got this from our owners report. I'm assuming these will be directly moved into Marriott.
> View attachment 52920



They cannot legally do that. You own the RTU at Lagunamar and pay MF based on that one resort.  If they take your week without your consent and results in your paying higher MF, VAC will be shutdown faster than you can say, wait...what.


----------



## Red elephant

jabberwocky said:


> I can see the enrolled resale voluntary weeks not being part of VSN in the future - but the mandatory weeks have to be in VSN. It’s written into the underlying covenants.
> 
> Maintenance fees are paid based on the TS Association you are in to cover the expenses of running the resort. I don’t think there would be a difference in MF because you are in Marrriott vs. Vistana if it is at the same resort.



I thought enrolling a resale week meant being a part of VSN. How can that be taken away once qualified ?


----------



## GregT

TravelTime said:


> I do not think there are any snobs who own timeshares. If anything, I keep it a secret to avoid ridicule. LOL


I have been a CFO of companies for last 20 years and it always shocks people when they hear I own timeshares (even more when I tell them how many). 

I even have a line “I may be the only person you will ever meet who absolutely loves timeshares”.   People really don’t expect it.

Best,

Greg


----------



## jabberwocky

Red elephant said:


> I thought enrolling a resale week meant being a part of VSN. How can that be taken away once qualified ?


If it isn’t mandatory resale they could simply only enroll you into MVC DP with a qualifying developer purchase and not enroll you into VSN.


----------



## jabberwocky

remowidget said:


> What I'm trying to say is they could take your week and give you trust points instead as the way of bringing your week into the system. The week would be removed from VSN circulation. Mandatory weeks would not be in VSN, because now they would be owned by the Marriott DCP Trust.
> 
> I own Lagunamar, so here is my example for a Platinum 2 bedroom lockoff unit.
> My 2022 Vistana Maintenance was $1653.92 per week, plus VSN fees.
> Rumor has it, this will get 4950 DC points, which would be:
> $0.62796×4,950 = $3108.40
> The price difference would be less for gold week owners as they would likely get less DC points.
> 
> They could do this for post 2010 Marriott resale weeks as well. I suspect they have been moving weeks into the trust for years as they aquire take backs, foreclosures, and ROFRs.
> 
> By the way, they already own over 5,000 Lagunamar weeks. I got this from our owners report. I'm assuming these will be directly moved into Marriott.
> View attachment 52920


Ah - now I understand what you are saying. I do think they may try this route for a segment. Although I’m not sure how much credit they would want to give you for your owned weeks. They may just want you to continue owning the week you have and then have you buy a minimum of DP. There seems to always be plenty of resale DP for them to recycle as well.

The Lagunamar chart is interesting, particularly as the Flex weeks haven’t increased over the years.I thought they were being pretty aggressive in selling Aventuras as a way to access WLR.  Are the numbers in the first column under each year the # of VOIs?  It looks like the MF paid by developer are about 68% higher than the Aventuras owners, and those owned by individuals are twice as much. I suspect this may mean there are more 1BR in Aventuras relative to developer and individual owned VOIs.


----------



## rickandcindy23

MICROZE said:


> This is the BS I was given by everyone from Marriott. In fairness, the Vistana people are clueless and did not say this.
> 
> I asked the exact same Q: _"Why do I need to pay to enroll my Direct-Purchased Vistana-Weeks. I already paid north of $100K to Vistana?"_
> *Quotes*
> _"Marriott purchased [did NOT merge] Vistana for $B."
> "Vistana-Owners [Direct/Enrolled/Resale] need to Pay-To-Play in the new system."
> "The DCP-System opens up much more access to Marriott-Inventory for which you did not pay". "This is an enhanced benefit for which you need to pay"_
> 
> There may be some truth, but I believe more an incentive to use fear to sell more.
> We will know for sure in a couple of months. Hopefully sooner.
> 
> I was assured that nothing would be taken away and that I could continue to use my VSN as-is.
> However, down the road [many years later] things could change.


That is a terrible answer from Marriott.  

This is why I keep what I bought and don't do anything.  Maybe they will allow me to make a purchase and enroll my SBP prime summer deeds.  If they do that, I would consider it for a good price.  I just don't see how it would help me because those are something we rent out successfully each year.  Last year, our daughter rented every single week.  Every one.


----------



## rickandcindy23

TravelTime said:


> I do not think there are any snobs who own timeshares. If anything, I keep it a secret to avoid ridicule. LOL


Yes, I know of a few people who think we are just plain stupid for buying timeshares.


----------



## vacationtime1

rickandcindy23 said:


> Yes, I know of a few people who think we are just plain stupid for buying timeshares.


Yes, they think I'm stupid.
Yes, they envy my vacations.


----------



## remowidget

TravelTime said:


> Since you still own the underlying week, wouldn’t MFs stay the same? I have two enrolled MVC weeks that I can elect DPs for. I still pay MFs based on the week and not the DP rate for these weeks. It would be an incredible deal if you could elect 4950 DPs yet still only pay the Lagunamar MF. Is it a developer-purchased week?


I own developer weeks and the 4950 DPs is what I think I read people saying Lagunamar is going to get. My maintenance fees should stay the same as there is no retro dealio.

The scenario I threw out there is what I would do if I was Marriott,  at least from my minimal understanding of Marriott. In this scenario, an owner would no longer own the week. They would only own DCP points. I think Marriott would rather everyone own DC points because if an ownership is sold, they get paid. They get paid for resale or retail. They could simply do what they are already effectively doing for DP resales, charge $3 per point plus fees to do the "retro conversion" to DCP-Points. This would make the price of resales go up, but that would be good for Marriott as well, IMHO. It really looks bad for timeshare companies to sell a product that is sometimes worthless as soon as it is sold. Marriott could be upfront about the whole process, rather than being shady.


----------



## remowidget

MICROZE said:


> We own 3 x EOY-2BR-WLR-PLAT+ which has the lowest MF in the entire VSN-Network.
> Has been excellent value. 148.1K-SO exchanged 4-Summers into 12-Nights Harborside [153.1K-SO] and more.
> Excellent Trading-Power. Multiple Hawaii-Trips [2/3-WKS-Each] via INTERVAL [Studio/1BR] which resulted in ~$120-$150/Night in a 2BR Maui, Princeville.
> 
> If this were to happen, our MF would double overnight.
> Hope we have the option to forego the 4950-DP and stay with the 1481.K-SO for ~$1650-MF.


This scenario is for new resale/retro. 

I believe that this is not going to happen to retail/already retroed weeks. From what I've read there will either be a smallish fee or free enrolment for weeks that are already enrolled.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Great story @GregT I have an MBA from a top school and people are shocked when I tell them I own resale timeshares and love them.

I compare timeshare success to house flipping. It's not for everyone and many don't succeed. You have to put in the research and effort to make the economics work. But when you do, you are well rewarded. We've taken dream vacations with our resales at a fraction of the cost.  I love when I sit in the WKORVN hot tub and talk to Vistana owners who paid full price for Island View. I just smile knowing that we paid much less for Oceanfront!


----------



## remowidget

VacationForever said:


> They cannot legally do that. You own the RTU at Lagunamar and pay MF based on that one resort.  If they take your week without your consent and results in your paying higher MF, VAC will be shutdown faster than you can say, wait...what.


It wouldn't be without your consent. You would have to agree to pay up to "retro/enroll" into DCP. The scenario I am suggesting would be a pure fee way of enrolling resale owners, complete profit for MVC. I've never understood why they make you buy something else to get a basically free enrollment as a bogo.


----------



## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> Those Marriott snobs don't care.


Eh I’m becoming a Marriott snob, I can’t lie. I’d rather stay in a Vistana/Marriott unit as a first choice. Although I know there are many many other better resorts out there. I just gravitate toward the MVW brands first.


----------



## remowidget

Red elephant said:


> I thought enrolling a resale week meant being a part of VSN. How can that be taken away once qualified ?


Enrollment wouldn't be taken away for anyone. It would be the new option for weeks that are not enrolled in VSN, or mandatory weeks that want access to DCP. I think it is pretty clear they will no longer be selling Vistana weeks.


----------



## VacationForever

remowidget said:


> It wouldn't be without your consent. You would have to agree to pay up to "retro/enroll" into DCP. The scenario I am suggesting would be a pure fee way of enrolling resale owners, complete profit for MVC. I've never understood why they make you buy something else to get a basically free enrollment as a bogo.


Then it would not be called retro/enroll but turning in a week for credit to get points at no cost. No, Thank you!  But it may work for some owners who acquired their resale week for cheap.


----------



## CPNY

GregT said:


> I have been a CFO of companies for last 20 years and it always shocks people when they hear I own timeshares (even more when I tell them how many).
> 
> I even have a line “I may be the only person you will ever meet who absolutely loves timeshares”.   People really don’t expect it.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


I feel that I have to defend myself every time I talk about timeshares and how many I have. By the way, I’m heading on my first tradewinds cruise next month, I’m nervous I may sign on the dotted line for a points package. If I love it, I’m buying in! I’ll need your resale guidance


----------



## remowidget

jabberwocky said:


> Ah - now I understand what you are saying. I do think they may try this route for a segment. Although I’m not sure how much credit they would want to give you for your owned weeks. They may just want you to continue owning the week you have and then have you buy a minimum of DP. There seems to always be plenty of resale DP for them to recycle as well.
> 
> The Lagunamar chart is interesting, particularly as the Flex weeks haven’t increased over the years.I thought they were being pretty aggressive in selling Aventuras as a way to access WLR.  Are the numbers in the first column under each year the # of VOIs?  It looks like the MF paid by developer are about 68% higher than the Aventuras owners, and those owned by individuals are twice as much. I suspect this may mean there are more 1BR in Aventuras relative to developer and individual owned VOIs.


They wouldn't have to give you anything for your weeks under this scenario. When the integration goes live, they will release how many DCP your week is worth. It's a simple $3 per point plus fees to enroll under this scenario. There would be no more shady BOGO to get you to enroll. I suppose they could do the same thing with BOGO. They could force you to purchase a new ownership to get your ownership moved to DCP.

They sell Aventuras as a way to get into Lagunamar,  however that doesn't mean there will be availability to actually book it. For example they screwed up by making January gold season, so it is very popular. I have heard quite a few people complain they couldn't book January with Aventuras at 12 months. Lagunamar is usually available other than very high weeks at 8 months, so they can usually book then as I do.

I think the numbers in the first column are VOIs. I think the reason for the differences in MF is due to the composition of the weeks in each group, but... For example I own lockoffs.


----------



## remowidget

VacationForever said:


> Then it would not be called retro/enroll but turning in a week for credit to get points at no cost. No, Thank you!  But it may work for some owners who acquired their resale week for cheap.


I am only talking about resale units that are not enrolled. I'm not saying everyone would do it. Just throwing the scenario out as a possibility.  It's what I would do if I was Marriott.


----------



## catharsis

duke said:


> Went to Owners Update:
> 
> DC points for each:
> WMH - Platinum - 3,150
> Princeville - 4,300
> SMV - Winter - 3,125
> VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950
> 
> Was also told:
> 1. Maui would be 7,450
> 2. No sales of deeded units or Flex after merger.  Only sales of DC points.
> 3. DC points will cost 15.92/point
> 4. DC points allocated to current VSE owners are dependent on location, season, and PRICE PAID.
> 5. No requals or trade in after merger.
> 
> Received $150 for attending.


SMV @ 3125 versus Summit Watch@4425, MountainSide@5350 or Timber Lodge in Tahoe@4325 seems VERY low - was the SMV valuation for a 1Bed or a 2Bed?


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> Eh I’m becoming a Marriott snob, I can’t lie. I’d rather stay in a Vistana/Marriott unit as a first choice. Although I know there are many many other better resorts out there. I just gravitate toward the MVW brands first.



But why is liking a Marriott better than a different brand snobbish? In general, people are going to like brands that offer a better quality more than a value resort. But Marriott/Vistana are middle of the pack. They might be the higher quality than the average timeshare but they are not fancy.


----------



## TravelTime

remowidget said:


> I own developer weeks and the 4950 DPs is what I think I read people saying Lagunamar is going to get. My maintenance fees should stay the same as there is no retro dealio.
> 
> The scenario I threw out there is what I would do if I was Marriott,  at least from my minimal understanding of Marriott. In this scenario, an owner would no longer own the week. They would only own DCP points. I think Marriott would rather everyone own DC points because if an ownership is sold, they get paid. They get paid for resale or retail. They could simply do what they are already effectively doing for DP resales, charge $3 per point plus fees to do the "retro conversion" to DCP-Points. This would make the price of resales go up, but that would be good for Marriott as well, IMHO. It really looks bad for timeshare companies to sell a product that is sometimes worthless as soon as it is sold. Marriott could be upfront about the whole process, rather than being shady.



I would rather buy 1000 DPs to enroll my week for $15K, like I was offered, than pay $3 PP to get 4950 DPs (appox $15K) enrolled. The reason is at least if you buy 1000 DPs for $15K, you are getting 1000 more DPs. In your scenario, you get nothing.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> I feel that I have to defend myself every time I talk about timeshares and how many I have. By the way, I’m heading on my first tradewinds cruise next month, I’m nervous I may sign on the dotted line for a points package. If I love it, I’m buying in! I’ll need your resale guidance



I did a Tradewinds cruise in the Grenadines. It was amazing. You will love it.


----------



## ocdb8r

catharsis said:


> SMV @ 3125 versus Summit Watch@4425, MountainSide@5350 or Timber Lodge in Tahoe@4325 seems VERY low - was the SMV valuation for a 1Bed or a 2Bed?



Tahoe has a big summer season.  I think some might argue Park City summer has higher demand than Avon/Vail.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

remowidget said:


> I am only talking about resale units that are not enrolled. I'm not saying everyone would do it. Just throwing the scenario out as a possibility.  It's what I would do if I was Marriott.



I would never sign up for either deal.  @MICROZE charts on the DP MF cost increases were insightful. No wonder MVC is pushing the addition of DPs to enroll - more people to cover the MF for the expensive mud week resorts that no one wants in the trust. Besides it keeps the inventory off of their books when they ROFR deeds. #shellgame I will stick with deeds only.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> But why is liking a Marriott better than a different brand snobbish? In general, people are going to like brands that offer a better quality more than a value resort. But Marriott/Vistana are middle of the pack. They might be the higher quality than the average timeshare but they are not fancy.


They aren’t fancy but they offer cleanliness, quality, and great amenities for the price. It’s a brand recognition and mindset thing. There are probably other resorts that are non brand that are higher quality.


----------



## remowidget

TravelTime said:


> I would rather buy 1000 DPs to enroll my week for $15K, like I was offered, than pay $3 PP to get 4950 DPs (appox $15K) enrolled. The reason is at least if you buy 1000 DPs for $15K, you are getting 1000 more DPs. In your scenario, you get nothing.


I could see it going either way. However, the BOGO method would be a lot more beneficial to owners who have ownerships worth a lot of DP. People with EOY studios, probably would prefer to pay a fee.


----------



## TravelTime

remowidget said:


> I could see it going either way. However, the BOGO method would be a lot more beneficial to owners who have ownerships worth a lot of DP. People with EOY studios, probably would prefer to pay a fee.



$3 a point to qualify week points without getting any extra destination points seems high especially if the underlying week was expensive. For example, it would cost about $25,000 to qualify a Maui every year week but you would get nothing extra for it. When you include the resale price of about $25,000 and possibly more, that would mean paying approx $50,000 or so all in just to enroll it.


----------



## MICROZE

TravelTime said:


> $3 a point to qualify week points without getting any extra destination points seems high especially if the underlying week was expensive. For example, it would cost about $25,000 to qualify a Maui every year week but you would get nothing extra for it. When you include the resale price of about $25,000 and possibly more, that would mean paying approx $50,000 or so all in just to enroll it.


Irrespective of the cost [Purchase-Price + Enroll-Price] to enroll; which is high, I worry about the on-going cost.
I have been of the opinion that MF for a Deeded-Week is always [Hawaii being an exception with High-MF] lower than MF for Points.

The best of both worlds would be to maintain my Deeded VSN-Unit [Lower-MF] and make a decision each year whether to elect DCP.


----------



## catharsis

vacation dreaming said:


> Second question - If you called into owner services, would they tell you what is available before you elected to convert?



Yes.


----------



## kozykritter

In the annual Sheraton Flex owner survey I recently completed they asked how important would it be to me to be able to rent StarOptions from other owners. From my past experience when a very specific question like that appears on a survey, it usually became a feature of the program a short time later. This would make sense since it's already a feature of MVC.

Assuming it happens, how would it change your approach to everything we are currently dealing with and your plan for your ownership?

My personal plan regardless is to enroll my ownership (two qualified Sheraton Flex contracts) into the DC as soon as they allow it assuming it's free or low cost to do it and then convert the DC points in the years that it makes sense for my travel plans. If they require a purchase to enroll in DC, I will pass (done buying ownership) and continue to rent DC points from owners willing to make reservations for me so I can temporarily expand my timeshare travel in a given year to meet my needs...and will be excited if StarOption renting happens as well!


----------



## sharr7

kozykritter said:


> My personal plan regardless is to enroll my ownership (two qualified Sheraton Flex contracts) into the DC as soon as they allow it assuming it's free or low cost to do it and then convert the DC points in the years that it makes sense for my travel plans. I have zero desire to buy further ownership in any program and that would be encased in cement if I were able to rent both StarOptions and DC points to temporarily expand my timeshare travel in a given year to meet my needs.


Hopefully you didn't put that on the survey lol


----------



## dsmrp

kozykritter said:


> In the annual Sheraton Flex owner survey that I recently completed they asked how important would it be to me to be able to rent StarOptions from other owners. From my past experience when a question like that appears on a survey, it usually became a feature of the program a short time later. This would make sense since it's already a feature of MVC.
> 
> Assuming it happens, how would it change your approach to everything we are currently dealing with and your plan for your ownership?
> 
> My personal plan regardless is to enroll my ownership (two qualified Sheraton Flex contracts) into the DC as soon as they allow it assuming it's free or low cost to do it and then convert the DC points in the years that it makes sense for my travel plans. I have zero desire to buy further ownership in any program and that would be encased in cement if I were able to rent both StarOptions and DC points to temporarily expand my timeshare travel in a given year to meet my needs.


I'm planning to do the same, enroll if at no/low cost. 
Going to stick with star options, except for certain locations where there's only MVC.
Renting star options would be great, however guessing that would be available only to flex owners, not deeded weeks.


----------



## kozykritter

sharr7 said:


> Hopefully you didn't put that on the survey lol


Right? Luckily the question just was rating your level of  interest on a scale of 1 to 5 and I chose 5, of course!


----------



## sharr7

How does it work renting DP in MVC? Is it all within a MVC system or do you have to reach the agreement with a buyer and then basically let MVC know to transfer them? Is there a set price or does the seller decide?


----------



## kozykritter

dsmrp said:


> I'm planning to do the same, enroll if at no/low cost.
> Going to stick with star options, except for certain locations where there's only MVC.
> Renting star options would be great, however guessing that would be available only to flex owners, not deeded weeks.


I would guess that anyone who has a VSN account would likely be able to rent/receive transfer of them. I wonder if as part of this Vistana would suspend its policy of prohibiting renting out reservations made with StarOptions.


----------



## kozykritter

sharr7 said:


> How does it work renting DP in MVC? Is it all within a MVC system or do you have to reach the agreement with a buyer and then basically let MVC know to transfer them? Is there a set price or does the seller decide?


MVC is not involved except to do the actual transfer if you are sending the points to another MVC owner's account. All of your dealings are directly with the person that has the points. If they are making a reservation for you instead of transferring to an MVC account, then that owner makes the reservation in the system or by calling MVC and adds your info to it. You can find points for rent on vacationpointexchange.com. You negotiate the price and go from there.


----------



## catharsis

ocdb8r said:


> Tahoe has a big summer season.  I think some might argue Park City summer has higher demand than Avon/Vail.


But the comparisons I was doing were for ski weeks- was the 3125 valuation for SMV not for a ski (winter) week?
If it was not, then that would make sense, but I thought I read platinum in the description?


----------



## VacationForever

catharsis said:


> But the comparisons I was doing were for ski weeks- was the 3125 valuation for SMV not for a ski (winter) week?
> If it was not, then that would make sense, but I thought I read platinum in the description?


SMV as a resort is not very desirable, excuse my language to SMV owners.  The rest of the resorts on your list are more high end.  Also, there is a component of original developer sales price.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> $3 a point to qualify week points without getting any extra destination points seems high especially if the underlying week was expensive. For example, it would cost about $25,000 to qualify a Maui every year week but you would get nothing extra for it. When you include the resale price of about $25,000 and possibly more, that would mean paying approx $50,000 or so all in just to enroll it.




To me the DC points have near zero value (anything that you can rent at the cost of MFs should have zero value)

They can sell me points only if they agree to buy them back from me on the same day. And since they claim the points are worth $15, I would be willing to buy 3000 points at $15 and immediately sell them back at $12 if I could enroll a couple resale weeks at the same time. Everybody wins!

But if they won't buy points at $12, why would I buy at $15???

So given those unfortunate circumstances, I would only pay a fee to enroll a Marriott resale week - but not anything more than $1/point, which is a lot more than I paid for the pre-2010 weeks.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

TravelTime said:


> And if they need any inventory, can’t they just get it through ROFR cheaply and then resell it as trust points?



ROFR works for a while but someone must buy those expensive trust points - hence why they are discounting DPs 15x relative to deed enrollment to their base.

Who pays for unsold DP Maintenance fees when an ROFRed unit is deposited in the trust? MVC? or do they pass that on to the DP points holders by dividing by the total points in the trust by the number of purchased DPs? If the latter that sounds like a house of cards because they cannot continue to increase MF's infinitely and not expect people to walk away.

And if the former, MVC doesn't have the financials to carry all of the ROFR maintenance fees for unsold inventory if they ROFR everything. This is where resale deeds come in to alleviate that pressure on their financials.


----------



## ocdb8r

catharsis said:


> But the comparisons I was doing were for ski weeks- was the 3125 valuation for SMV not for a ski (winter) week?
> If it was not, then that would make sense, but I thought I read platinum in the description?



That's the biggest confusion about any election of MVC DPs - they have completely redefined the seasons.  As such, what they effectively do is look at the total value of all points they've allocated to all weeks that were sold as platinum by SMV and get an average.  As such, if there are weeks that are considered "platinum" by SMV but have been allocated lower points by MVC, then it drags the overall average down (and it's the average you're getting for when you elect DPs).


----------



## Markus

GregT said:


> I have been a CFO of companies for last 20 years and it always shocks people when they hear I own timeshares (even more when I tell them how many).
> 
> I even have a line “I may be the only person you will ever meet who absolutely loves timeshares”.   People really don’t expect it.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


Ditto on the CFO and many timeshares owned and loving it!


----------



## TravelTime

ocdb8r said:


> That's the biggest confusion about any election of MVC DPs - they have completely redefined the seasons.  As such, what they effectively do is look at the total value of all points they've allocated to all weeks that were sold as platinum by SMV and get an average.  As such, if there are weeks that are considered "platinum" by SMV but have been allocated lower points by MVC, then it drags the overall average down (and it's the average you're getting for when you elect DPs).



Don’t all timeshares have seasons and different point values? All the timeshares I have ever owned have that. What makes MVC different than others?


----------



## VacationForever

ocdb8r said:


> That's the biggest confusion about any election of MVC DPs - they have completely redefined the seasons.  As such, what they effectively do is look at the total value of all points they've allocated to all weeks that were sold as platinum by SMV and get an average.  As such, if there are weeks that are considered "platinum" by SMV but have been allocated lower points by MVC, then it drags the overall average down (and it's the average you're getting for when you elect DPs).


Every week within the same season and at the same resort is allocated the same number of SOs, just as MVC DC points.  I don't understand what you have explained as being a problem.


----------



## VacationForever

CalGalTraveler said:


> ROFR works for a while but someone must buy those expensive trust points - hence why they are discounting DPs 15x relative to deed enrollment to their base.
> 
> Who pays for unsold DP Maintenance fees when an ROFRed unit is deposited in the trust? MVC? or do they pass that on to the DP points holders by dividing by the total points in the trust by the number of purchased DPs? If the latter that sounds like a house of cards because they cannot continue to increase MF's infinitely and not expect people to walk away.
> 
> And if the former, MVC doesn't have the financials to carry all of the ROFR maintenance fees for unsold inventory if they ROFR everything. This is where resale deeds come in to alleviate that pressure on their financials.


MVC pays maintenance fees for all unsold inventory.  It is listed in the Maintenance fee statement and annual budget.


----------



## rcv82

VacationForever said:


> Every week within the same season and at the same resort is allocated the same number of SOs, just as MVC DC points. I don't understand what you have explained as being a problem.



This is just back to the “skim” issue again. Every 2 br lock off Westin or Sheraton in ski season Thanksgiving until 3rd week of April is 148,100 SOs (yeah, Steamboat has some premium views that are higher), both to the owner and to use, even though the weeks vary greatly in demand during the season. With DC points, the rate to use the resorts changes almost every week, even though you only get the flat rate. Is this a problem? It depends upon your perspective. But it is certainly VERY different than VSN. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rcv82

VacationForever said:


> MVC pays maintenance fees for all unsold inventory. It is listed in the Maintenance fee statement and annual budget.



They should be for sure. I presume this unsold inventory is primarily what they are renting out from the hotel site. At the poor exchange rate, I doubt much of the hotel site inventory is coming from owners electing Bonvoy points. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VacationForever

rcv82 said:


> This is just back to the “skim” issue again. Every 2 br lock off Westin or Sheraton in ski season Thanksgiving until 3rd week of April is 148,100 SOs (yeah, Steamboat has some premium views that are higher), both to the owner and to use, even though the weeks vary greatly in demand during the season. With DC points, the rate to use the resorts changes almost every week, even though you only get the flat rate. Is this a problem? It depends upon your perspective. But it is certainly VERY different than VSN.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We all need to stop comparing SOs with DC points.  If you own at your resort, you can keep using your week.  SOs mean nothing in the MVC DC system.  Skim comes in when you elect DC and try to book into peak period in your own season.  I hated skim until I realized that I can come out even or better. I usually do a 12-night stay and skip one Fri and one Sat nights.  With Presidential level, I also get 30 percent discount at 60 days.


----------



## DanCali

rcv82 said:


> This is just back to the “skim” issue again. Every 2 br lock off Westin or Sheraton in ski season Thanksgiving until 3rd week of April is 148,100 SOs (yeah, Steamboat has some premium views that are higher), both to the owner and to use, even though the weeks vary greatly in demand during the season. With DC points, the rate to use the resorts changes almost every week, even though you only get the flat rate. Is this a problem? It depends upon your perspective. But it is certainly VERY different than VSN.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





VacationForever said:


> We all need to stop comparing SOs with DC points.  If you own at your resort, you can keep using your week.  SOs mean nothing in the MVC DC system.  Skim comes in when you elect DC and try to book into peak period in your own season.  I hated skim until I realized that I can come out even or better. I usually do a 12-night stay and skip one Fri and one Sat nights.  With Presidential level, I also get 30 percent discount at 60 days.



The aligning of point requirement with demand for particular weeks is not a problem per se and should not be confused with skim. Neither should the lack of ability to book the high demand weeks in your season.

If some weeks in your season have a different point requirement, you can compute the average points required to book a week in your season. Call that "Fair Value"
If that number would be equal to what you got if you elected your week for points, there really would be no "skim".
That still wouldn't mean that you could book every week in your season with points - high demand weeks would be out of reach, while you could book maybe 8-10 nights in the lower demand weeks. Use your week as a week to book the high demand weeks. But there would be no skim in this case because if everyone converted to points, then those points would be enough to book all the weeks in the season (like Vistana). It wouldn't be feasible and probably not legal to give you more points than that "Fair Value".

As it happens, the points owners get are 6%-9% below that aforementioned average of points required to book a week in a season. That's "skim"... Some weeks would still be out of reach, while you could still maybe book 8-9 nights in the lower demand weeks. But you got less than the "Fair Value".

Skim is easy to see if all weeks in the season had the same point requirement, and you got less than that. As an extreme example, my Newport Coast Platinum Plus week is a single-week season (Week 26). It is 5675 points to book that week and I get 5300 if I elect points. I lose 6.6% to skim.

With weeks like WKV 2BR Platinum it's harder to spot the skim. The Platinum season is 23 weeks. There are 12 weeks in that season that require 5400 points to book. There are 6 weeks that require 2950. The other 5 weeks are 3800. We don't get skimmed just because we get less than 5400 (the most expensive weeks). We get skimmed because the average per Platinum season week is 4413 (Fair Value) and we get 4050, or 8.2% less. With 4050 I can still book 8-10 nights during 6 of the weeks in the season. But it's less than what Fair Value would be. And if you got the Fair amount of 4413 points you still couldn't book 12 weeks in your season with points because they require 5400 points to book, but they couldn't feasibly give you more than that. You don't have to elect points to book those weeks.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

VacationForever said:


> MVC pays maintenance fees for all unsold inventory.  It is listed in the Maintenance fee statement and annual budget.




So this suggests that MVC does not throw every ROFR into the trust and must dispose of the deeds via resale channels to get them off of their books. As the MVC population ages out we can expect resale inventory to increase over the next 10 - 20 years as people exit for health and other reasons unless MVC finds a way to sell more DP points and put more of those ROFR deeds into the trust.


----------



## VacationForever

CalGalTraveler said:


> So this suggests that MVC does not throw every ROFR into the trust and must dispose of the deeds via resale channels to get them off of their books. As the MVC population ages out we can expect resale inventory to increase over the next 10 - 20 years as people exit for health and other reasons unless MVC finds a way to sell more DP points and put more of those ROFR deeds into the trust.


Why do you think that MVC resells the deeds?  They are selling DC points like hot cakes and deeds that are acquired through ROFR do go into the trust.  They will always be paying MF on unsold trust points but they will also generate revenue by renting them out via marriott.com.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> We all need to stop comparing SOs with DC points.  If you own at your resort, you can keep using your week.  SOs mean nothing in the MVC DC system.  Skim comes in when you elect DC and try to book into peak period in your own season.  I hated skim until I realized that I can come out even or better. I usually do a 12-night stay and skip one Fri and one Sat nights.  With Presidential level, I also get 30 percent discount at 60 days.



Agreed. Being a relatively new timeshare owner, I am not as knowledgeable or experienced using MVC or SOs as others. I think all TS systems have pros and cons. I do not think DPs and SOs are comparable either. Plus you can keep what you have and use it like you do now. I am not entirely worried about how many DPs my Vistana week converts to if I am not going to do it. Most Vistana on this thread are not going to pay to convert so it becomes irrelevant. If you can get enrollment for free or low cost, then it’s the best of all worlds. If you get a benefit for free or little money, then I would just be grateful for the option to use whichever program suits my needs at the time. Many Tuggers love the trades they get from II and especially when they get a better value out of the trade. OTOH, many people do not like II. To me, these are all just options and we use what works for us.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

VacationForever said:


> Why do you think that MVC resells the deeds?  They are selling DC points like hot cakes and deeds that are acquired through ROFR do go into the trust.  They will always be paying MF on unsold trust points but they will also generate revenue by renting them out via marriott.com.



What proof do you have that DPs are being sold like hotcakes other than being forced upon existing owners to enroll or requal deeds?

I do buy the rental argument as a source of income. Are you saying they are not recirculating resale deeds back into the market at all? Asked another way: Are they ROFRing every resale?


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> The aligning of point requirement with demand for particular weeks is not a problem per se and should not be confused with skim. Neither should the lack of ability to book the high demand weeks in your season.
> 
> If some weeks in your season have a different point requirement, you can compute the average points required to book a week in your season. Call that "Fair Value"
> If that number would be equal to what you got if you elected your week for points, there really would be no "skim".
> That still wouldn't mean that you could book every week in your season with points - high demand weeks would be out of reach, while you could book maybe 8-10 nights in the lower demand weeks. Use your week as a week to book the high demand weeks. But there would be no skim in this case because if everyone converted to points, then those points would be enough to book all the weeks in the season (like Vistana). It wouldn't be feasible and probably not legal to give you more points than that "Fair Value".
> 
> As it happens, the points owners get are 6%-9% below that aforementioned average of points required to book a week in a season. That's "skim"... Some weeks would still be out of reach, while you could still maybe book 8-9 nights in the lower demand weeks. But you got less than the "Fair Value".
> 
> Skim is easy to see if all weeks in the season had the same point requirement, and you got less than that. As an extreme example, my Newport Coast Platinum Plus week is a single-week season (Week 26). It is 5675 points to book that week and I get 5300 if I elect points. I lose 6.6% to skim.
> 
> With weeks like WKV 2BR Platinum it's harder to spot the skim. The Platinum season is 23 weeks. There are 12 weeks in that season that require 5400 points to book. There are 6 weeks that require 2950. The other 5 weeks are 3800. We don't get skimmed just because we get less than 5400 (the most expensive weeks). We get skimmed because the average per Platinum season week is 4413 (Fair Value) and we get 4050, or 8.2% less. With 4050 I can still book 8-10 nights during 6 of the weeks in the season. But it's less than what Fair Value would be. And if you got the Fair amount of 4413 points you still couldn't book 12 weeks in your season with points because they require 5400 points to book, but they couldn't feasibly give you more than that. You don't have to elect points to book those weeks.



The concern about skim or getting few points than the highest demand weeks is confusing to me. I am confused as to why this is such a big deal if you can still use your week as a week. There is a reason when people decide to elect DPs for an enrolled week. So if you are choosing that option to get something you want instead of using your home resort, why is it a bad thing?

In Vistana, there is also skim. For example, with 176K SOs, I need to plan exactly how I will divide up those points if I do not use them at my home resort. Otherwise, I can lose SOs.


----------



## daviator

CalGalTraveler said:


> What proof do you have that DPs are being sold like hotcakes other than being forced upon existing owners to enroll or requal deeds?
> 
> I do buy the rental argument as a source of income. Are you saying they are not recirculating resale deeds back into the market at all?


As soon as the developer (MVC/Vistana) reacquires a "resale deed", it's not a resale deed any more.  It's just part of their inventory, which, going forward, I expect they'll mostly (if not completely) deposit into the DC trust.  Every time they do so, it increases their inventory of DC points which are now (or very soon) their primary product to sell.

To the extent a VOI is "tainted" as a resale VOI, that taint disappears forever when the VOI is reacquired by the developer.  And since (in theory, at least) they are no longer selling deeded weeks, once a week is deposited into the DC trust it will likely never become a deeded week again.

I'm confused by the notion that MVC/Vistana would do something special with previously-resold VOIs which they acquire by ROFR, deedback, etc.  There's nothing special about those VOIs, they just go back into inventory... and inventory in the future will only take the form of DC points.  Right?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

daviator said:


> I'm confused by the notion that MVC/Vistana would do something special with previously-resold VOIs which they acquire by ROFR, deedback, etc.  There's nothing special about those VOIs, they just go back into inventory... and inventory in the future will only take the form of DC points.  Right?



It sounds like they would pass on ROFR and thus it goes back into the resale market unless they are ROFRing 100% of resale deeds.


----------



## Eric B

daviator said:


> As soon as the developer (MVC/Vistana) reacquires a "resale deed", it's not a resale deed any more.  It's just part of their inventory, which, going forward, I expect they'll mostly (if not completely) deposit into the DC trust.  Every time they do so, it increases their inventory of DC points which are now (or very soon) their primary product to sell.
> 
> To the extent a VOI is "tainted" as a resale VOI, that taint disappears forever when the VOI is reacquired by the developer.  And since (in theory, at least) they are no longer selling deeded weeks, once a week is deposited into the DC trust it will likely never become a deeded week again.
> 
> I'm confused by the notion that MVC/Vistana would do something special with previously-resold VOIs which they acquire by ROFR, deedback, etc.  There's nothing special about those VOIs, they just go back into inventory... and inventory in the future will only take the form of DC points.  Right?



I’m not absolutely convinced they would put a highly desirable ocean front center week in the trust instead of sell it as a deed.


----------



## daviator

TravelTime said:


> In Vistana, there is also skim. For example, with 176K SOs, I need to plan exactly how I will divide up those points if I do not use them at my home resort. Otherwise, I can lose SOs.



Losing SOs in that manner isn't the same as skim.  Yes, you have to plan carefully, and if you end up with extra SOs, there are some other ways you can get value from them (resort credit, etc.) even if the value isn't great.  But with Vistana it's always possible to get the same value from your SOs as existed in the ownership that generated those SOs.  The 176K SOs that you get from your ownership can be used to book that same unit for 176K even after the home resort booking period ends.  Whereas with DPs, if you elect to take points, you will never have enough to book the unit and week that those points came from.


----------



## VacationForever

CalGalTraveler said:


> What proof do you have that DPs are being sold like hotcakes other than being forced upon existing owners to enroll or requal deeds?
> 
> I do buy the rental argument as a source of income. Are you saying they are not recirculating resale deeds back into the market at all?



Dioxide was going through county records and tracking additions to the trust.  He can jump in but my conclusion is that ROFL weeks are added into the trust.  I know that during COVID their sales suffered and laid off a bunch of salespeople and closed many of their offices, as with most businesses.  Tug is only a small group of owners and their sales have picked up now that offices have been reopened for in person meetings. 

There is no such thing as forcing upon existing owners to enrill or requal deeds.  No one is forced. A sale by any other name is still a sale.  I have friends who kept adding 3000 points to their ownership until they reached Chairman's Club level.

Also, MVC sells hybrid packages and based on my own experience, those weeks don't come from ROFR.  As owners, they help us resell our weeks through their hybrid bundle.  They have done for us 5 times when we wanted to divest but we backed out each time because we felt that we were not done with timesharing.


----------



## daviator

CalGalTraveler said:


> It sounds like they would pass on ROFR and thus it goes back into the resale market unless they are ROFRing 100% of resale deeds.


If they pass on ROFR, then they don't reacquire the deed.  So the person who is trying to buy it gets to buy it.  Nothing changes except the ownership of the deeded week.



Eric B said:


> I’m not absolutely convinced they would put a highly desirable ocean front center week in the trust instead of sell it as a deed.


They might not, they might sell it as a deed.  But again, it's not a "resale deed" at that point, it's a week that somebody buys from the developer with full privileges, etc.


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> In Vistana, there is also skim. For example, with 176K SOs, I need to plan exactly how I will divide up those points if I do not use them at my home resort. Otherwise, I can lose SOs.


I don’t think that is skim. It’s just inefficient planning. I think over the 11 years we’ve owned our TS we’ve lost around 1250 SO. I didn’t think it was worth banking the remaining $20 worth that year.

Even through COVID I’ve managed to not lose anything in terms of points across both Hilton and Vistana. We cleared out the last of our Restricted SO in March and I just have around 10k of 2022 expiry SO that I will be looking to book with shortly.

I’ve appreciated the flexibility of having the ability to bank points along with the policies adopted by Vistana (Hilton I should note has been amazing!). If I just had straight weeks I don’t think we could have gotten similar trades through II.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> The concern about skim or getting few points than the highest demand weeks is confusing to me. I am confused as to why this is such a big deal if you can still use your week as a week. There is a reason when people decide to elect DPs for an enrolled week. So if you are choosing that option to get something you want instead of using your home resort, why is it a bad thing?
> 
> In Vistana, there is also skim. For example, with 176K SOs, I need to plan exactly how I will divide up those points if I do not use them at my home resort. Otherwise, I can lose SOs.



In Vistana there is zero skim in the sense that owners get exactly what it takes to book the weeks in their season. Point In = Points Out. It takes 176K SO to book every unit/week in your season and that's what you get when you elect points. That is not the case with Marriott - owners get 6%-9% less. I refer to it as "skim" but just think of it as a transaction fee when electing points. It is a cost that owners who elect points pay in an indirect manner.

Is it a big deal? That's in the eye of the beholder. Clearly many owners are converting to points and are willing to pay it. I too have converted some of my Newport Coast weeks in the past, but I'm not always inclined to do it because the week rental value is higher than the point rental value (less so for the Platinum Plus week).

It should not be a concern because you can't book the high demand weeks at your home resort. You can always use your week to book those. But the points you get would not allow you to book the high demand weeks at the resort "across the street". Per my prior post, that's not necessarily because of "skim", but because of how the system is set up where weeks are aligned with demand.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> ROFR works for a while but someone must buy those expensive trust points - hence why they are discounting DPs 15x relative to deed enrollment to their base.
> 
> Who pays for unsold DP Maintenance fees when an ROFRed unit is deposited in the trust? MVC? or do they pass that on to the DP points holders by dividing by the total points in the trust by the number of purchased DPs? If the latter that sounds like a house of cards because they cannot continue to increase MF's infinitely and not expect people to walk away.
> 
> And if the former, MVC doesn't have the financials to carry all of the ROFR maintenance fees for unsold inventory if they ROFR everything. This is where resale deeds come in to alleviate that pressure on their financials.





CalGalTraveler said:


> So this suggests that MVC does not throw every ROFR into the trust and must dispose of the deeds via resale channels to get them off of their books. As the MVC population ages out we can expect resale inventory to increase over the next 10 - 20 years as people exit for health and other reasons unless MVC finds a way to sell more DP points and put more of those ROFR deeds into the trust.


For the most part, MVC weeks that Marriott takes back go into the DC trust. The only exceptions really are Boston Custom House and the resorts outside the domestic United States. For the trust, any unsold points sit on Marriott's book and they are responsible to pay the fees on those points. It is also possible that between the time Marriott takes a week back via ROFR and the time they can convey it to the trust there may be a use year happen. Marriott has traditionally only conveyed inventory to the trust twice a year. Unsold inventory is generally rented on Marriott.com and Marriott keeps any rental profit. They actually make a decent portion of their income from renting their unsold inventory.


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## rcv82

VacationForever said:


> We all need to stop comparing SOs with DC points. If you own at your resort, you can keep using your week. SOs mean nothing in the MVC DC system. Skim comes in when you elect DC and try to book into peak period in your own season. I hated skim until I realized that I can come out even or better. I usually do a 12-night stay and skip one Fri and one Sat nights. With Presidential level, I also get 30 percent discount at 60 days.



Comparing SOs with DC points, along with who from Vistana is going to get access (and at what cost) to the DC exchange is really what this thread is mostly about, as it is what is new for Vistana owners. Both represent the internal exchange mechanism of the legacy companies, with some degree of integration with their respective trust products. For now it appears Vistana owners will have access to two “competing” internal exchanges (plus II). Long term I bet Marriott would like to find a way to get it to one system. Maybe they will never make that happen, but there is definitely complexity in managing all these overlapping systems and their respective inventory pools (home weeks, HomeOptions, in and out of VSN under 8 months out, interval and DC deposits, hotel inventory, etc., and all for each season and type of unit). 


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## sharr7

DanCali said:


> In Vistana there is zero skim in the sense that owners get exactly what it takes to book the weeks in their season. Point In = Points Out. It takes 176K SO to book every unit/week in your season and that's what you get when you elect points. That is not the case with Marriott - owners get 6%-9% less. I refer to it as "skim" but just think of it as a transaction fee when electing points. It is a cost that owners who elect points pay in an indirect manner.
> 
> Is it a big deal? That's in the eye of the beholder. Clearly many owners are converting to points and are willing to pay it. I too have converted some of my Newport Coast weeks in the past, but I'm not always inclined to do it because the week rental value is higher than the point rental value.
> 
> It should not be a concern because you can't book the high demand weeks at your home resort. You can always use your week to book those. But the points you get would not allow you to book the high demand weeks at the resort "across the street". Per my prior post, that's not necessarily because of "skim", but because of how the system is set up where weeks are aligned with demand.


Agree the main Vistana-side confusion is that we're familiar with point levels matching from the week you bought to other weeks in that season to the points you receive to travel to other network resorts...even to generally having similar "worth" across resorts. 81k is 81k is 81k and that gets you into a 1BR anywhere and low demand 2BRs (I think, without looking at the charts). With MVC you may own a week that costs 6k to book, in a season where points fluctuate by 3k points, average out to 4.5k weekly, and MVC gives you 4.1k to actually use in the system. 

I think most of us get it though, it would have sucked but if near the beginning of the VSN, they said "you can travel to your resort in your season but if you convert to SOs, we rake 8% of the points as a convenience/network fee" - it would have been hard to swallow but people would have made it work in different ways, just like MVC owners do. 

This soft launch is making it so much more difficult since most Vistana owners don't know what their weeks are worth in DP - no one knows if you don't trust a couple sales sheets. So that makes it hard to visualize how/if to use your unit in the DP system. It would be easier to communicate about the systems if we could all look at formal points charts and week values.

Lastly I think the MVC DP tables are poorly formatted. They look like they are at least 50% more complicated than Vistana when in reality there's maybe only 10-20% more complexity. Most resorts look like they have maybe 1-2 more true "seasons" (i.e., point levels) than typical Vistana and 1-2 weeks or selected days of peak pricing around holidays (somewhere between a true season and just a day or two of "these nights are gonna cost ya") - which generally Vistana doesn't do. But in the end they really follow chunks of weeks just like Vistana's system. In both charts it's hard to find your dates in different ways. Anyway my point is it's hard to look at when you're used to looking at Vistana's charts. And if I were in charge I would lay out the points summary differently.


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## DanCali

sharr7 said:


> Lastly I think the MVC DP tables are poorly formatted. They look like they are at least 50% more complicated than Vistana when in reality there's maybe only 10-20% more complexity.



The poor formatting has to do with different pricing for different days of the week during some holiday weeks. Instead of Sun-Thu pricing it might be Sun- Mon, Tue-Thu, so even though the full week is similar to prior "chunks", they add a bunch more rows.

But - they really are more complex than VSN.... a lot more!

Exhibit #1 - Crystal Shores with 8 view categories... Per your comment it's not immediately obvious why Jan 6-12 is not with the Jan 13-26 and Apr 7-27 group. That's just page 1 of 2 for this resort


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## VacationForever

DanCali said:


> Exhibit #1 - Crystal Shores with 8 view categories... Per your comment it's not immediately obvious why Jan 6-12 is not with the Jan 13-26 and Apr 7-27 group.
> 
> View attachment 53002


Done by first grader.


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## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> The poor formatting has to do with different pricing for different days of the week during some holiday weeks. Instead of Sun-Thu pricing it might be Sun- Mon, Tue-Thu, so even though the full week is similar to prior "chunks", they add a bunch more rows.
> 
> But - they really are more complex than VSN.... a lot more!
> 
> Exhibit #1 - Crystal Shores with 8 view categories... Per your comment it's not immediately obvious why Jan 6-12 is not with the Jan 13-26 and Apr 7-27 group. That's just page 1 of 2 for this resort
> 
> View attachment 53002


I see that at other resorts where there are two sections that have the same point amounts across the board that really should be combined into one section. No idea why they do things this way. The charts are a bit of a mess.


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## alexadeparis

DanCali said:


> The poor formatting has to do with different pricing for different days of the week during some holiday weeks. Instead of Sun-Thu pricing it might be Sun- Mon, Tue-Thu, so even though the full week is similar to prior "chunks", they add a bunch more rows.
> 
> But - they really are more complex than VSN.... a lot more!
> 
> Exhibit #1 - Crystal Shores with 8 view categories... Per your comment it's not immediately obvious why Jan 6-12 is not with the Jan 13-26 and Apr 7-27 group. That's just page 1 of 2 for this resort
> 
> View attachment 53002



Yeah this chart system sucks, at the very least they need to put it in date order, both within the chart, and then within the line item. My brain hurts trying to comprehend this, but it may be purposely done this way to try to hide the skim.


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## daviator

alexadeparis said:


> My brain hurts trying to comprehend this, but it may be purposely done this way to try to hide the skim.


Back to my oft-expressed belief that they try to make it seem complicated.  The more confused people are, the more people won’t use their ownership or won’t use it effectively, and that results in nights that MVW can very profitably rent out.  It is a very cynical view, I know, but I feel like the big money in this “racket” is in monetizing sold but unused VOIs.

And as investors continue to demand growth from MVW, the easiest way to deliver it may be by increased rental income.  How do you get more nights to rent?  Continually increase the complexity of the system so that utilization goes down. Small dips in the percentage of utilized nights become big increases in profits, since renting those unused nights is pure profit (the owners are paying the MFs...)


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## dioxide45

daviator said:


> I know, but I feel like the big money in this “racket” is in monetizing sold but unused VOIs.


Certainly renting out inventory you can get for free that someone else paid for is a great money maker. 100% profit! If it doesn't rent, there is no loss.


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## robertk2012

dioxide45 said:


> Certainly renting out inventory you can get for free that someone else paid for is a great money maker. 100% profit! If it doesn't rent, there is no loss.



They aren’t able to rent that inventory free are they?


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## daviator

robertk2012 said:


> They aren’t able to rent that inventory free are they?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sure, I think they can.  They can rent out whatever doesn’t get reserved by owners as well as inventory they own, VOIs traded for Bonvoy points, etc.  I imagine they have a pretty good handle on demand and can sell more and more of the unreserved inventory as the checkin dates get closer.  I think the nature of the program with the floating weeks, etc. gives them a lot of latitude to decide what they need to hold back for owners and what they can rent out.


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## rcv82

daviator said:


> Sure, I think they can. They can rent out whatever doesn’t get reserved by owners as well as inventory they own, VOIs traded for Bonvoy points, etc. I imagine they have a pretty good handle on demand and can sell more and more of the unreserved inventory as the checkin dates get closer. I think the nature of the program with the floating weeks, etc. gives them a lot of latitude to decide what they need to hold back for owners and what they can rent out.



The following is straight from the WKORV disclosures, which supports the statement above:

The "Network Priority Period." It is the sixty (60)-day period immediately preceding the Check-in Day of a given Use Period. During the Network Priority Period, Network Members have limited rights to reserve one or more Use Periods, subject to the Network Rules. In addition, during the Network Priority Period the Developer and, to the extent permitted by law, the Club Operator have the right to reserve Use Periods for their own use such as for rental to the public or for other purposes. 


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## ocdb8r

VacationForever said:


> Every week within the same season and at the same resort is allocated the same number of SOs, *just as MVC DC points*.  I don't understand what you have explained as being a problem.



I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying. A "Platinum" week at SMV is completely equal in both value and cost in VSN.

Every SMV "Platinum" week is *not equal *in both value and cost in MVC DPs.  For cost to reserve those weeks, MVC has created a whole separate division of the weeks (that doesn't map to what constitutes a "Platinum" week at SMV).  You are correct, the DP value any Platinum owner receives from MVC is the same, but it equates to an average (minus skim) of the DP value of all the "Platinum" weeks in MVC's "division" of the weeks.  The implication of this is that if the SMV "Platinum" season includes a substantial number of weeks that the "MVC division" allocates lower DP values, the average is lower and thus the DPs received is lower.  

Catharsis posted this:


catharsis said:


> SMV @ 3125 versus Summit Watch@4425, MountainSide@5350 or Timber Lodge in Tahoe@4325 seems VERY low - was the SMV valuation for a 1Bed or a 2Bed?



The 3125 DPs mentioned is the valuation of the DPs received by a Platinum week owner at SMV (compared to that received at MVC resorts).  The reason for this could be because of the above.


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## catharsis

DanCali said:


> To me the DC points have near zero value (anything that you can rent at the cost of MFs should have zero value)
> 
> They can sell me points only if they agree to buy them back from me on the same day. And since they claim the points are worth $15, I would be willing to buy 3000 points at $15 and immediately sell them back at $12 if I could enroll a couple resale weeks at the same time. Everybody wins!
> 
> But if they won't buy points at $12, why would I buy at $15???
> 
> So given those unfortunate circumstances, I would only pay a fee to enroll a Marriott resale week - but not anything more than $1/point, which is a lot more than I paid for the pre-2010 weeks.



I agree with all of that, but a little like some have been able to retro by purchasing weeks at WKV, similarly Marriott sometime alllow enrolment of existing resale weeks by purchasing deeded weeks outside of the US (Caribbean, Spain, France) - I have done this previously as the purchased weeks had lower MF$/point than DC Points, and might even have some residual value on the resale market, unlike DC Points.


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## catharsis

Eric B said:


> I’m not absolutely convinced they would put a highly desirable ocean front center week in the trust instead of sell it as a deed.


Based on 12 years of Marriott DC behaviour, for resorts within the US there has been zero resales of 'ROFR'ed deeded weeks' within the US that I'm aware of... there were a few 'hybrid' deals when they still had the indirect broker model operation going and would sell weeks on behalf of existing owners, but they did not to my knowledge sell any weeks belonging to Marriott tor acquired by ROFR after the launch of DPs and the creation of the trust... they just take whatever they acquire into the trust, including desirable weeks at MOC as was previously tracked and referred to in this thread.


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## rickandcindy23

catharsis said:


> Based on 12 years of Marriott DC behaviour, for resorts within the US there has been zero resales of 'ROFR'ed deeded weeks' within the US that I'm aware of... there were a few 'hybrid' deals when they still had the indirect broker model operation going and would sell weeks on behalf of existing owners, but they did not to my knowledge sell any weeks belonging to Marriott tor acquired by ROFR after the launch of DPs and the creation of the trust... they just take whatever they acquire into the trust, including desirable weeks at MOC as was previously tracked and referred to in this thread.


How would any of us know?  They ROFR some weeks.  You think they keep all of those?


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## catharsis

rickandcindy23 said:


> How would any of us know?  They ROFR some weeks.  You think they keep all of those?


Aren't these deeded week real estate transactions and therefore open public records?

Also - has anyone reported on TUG since 2010 that they purchased a week direct from Marriott (as opposed to their 'brokered' resale system, which is no longer operating) ?

You cannot sell something without a buyer, and you cannot sell real estate (weeks) without creating public records, so yes, I do think Marriott keep all ROFR'ed weeks, until there's any signs or evidence to the contrary.


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## DanCali

catharsis said:


> Also - has anyone reported on TUG since 2010 that they purchased a week direct from Marriott (as opposed to their 'brokered' resale system, which is no longer operating) ?




I suspect this happens as part of a transaction involving resale weeks enrollment (and has been reported by tuggers)

They first try to sell you points in exchange for enrolling resale weeks. If you tell them that you don't like the point MFs (ridiculously high) they can get more creative and will sell you a week in exchange for enrolling other resale weeks. However, my experience in such a presentation is that they still price that developer week as if it were points - meaning however many points it converts to x point price. The only difference is the MFs are based on the deeded week.


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## CalGalTraveler

What happens when owners want to exit DP points?  I hear that resale is around $3 plus $3 enrollment.

Does MVC ever deedback points or will they allow the bottom to fall out of the DP resale market when DP owners (now approaching a decade) want to exit and then will pick them up for free as new inventory for the trust.  How easy is it to exit?


----------



## Eric B

DanCali said:


> If you tell them that you don't like the point MFs (ridiculously high) they can get more creative and will sell you a week in exchange for enrolling other resale weeks.



Seems to me that this would indicate that they don't automatically add any ROFR weeks to the trust - that would require them to remove the weeks from the trust in order to support selling them as deeded, which would complicate the transaction.  It might be more likely that Marriott has an inventory of unsold weeks that aren't in the trust that they do this with.


----------



## DanCali

CalGalTraveler said:


> What happens when owners want to exit DP points?  I hear that resale is around $3 plus $3 enrollment.
> 
> Does MVC ever deedback points or will they allow the bottom to fall out of the DP resale market when DP owners (now approaching a decade) want to exit and then will pick them up for free as new inventory for the trust.  How easy is it to exit?



The problem with the $3 "junk fee" is that it's totally up to Marriott. It was $1 in 2010 and raised over time. That obviously also contributes to the decline in resale prices since if a buyer is willing to pay $6, they won't pay $7 if Marriott increases the fee tomorrow by $1. Rather, the part that goes to the actual seller will be lower.

Resale prices bottomed out in the pandemic between $1-$2 and have ticked up slightly, like they did for many deeded weeks. Redweek prices:
Marriott Vacation Club Points for Sale | RedWeek

I don't this they care if the bottom falls out - They can buy at ROFR and resell at full price or they can let it through and make the junk fee. They make money either way.


----------



## MICROZE

Eric B said:


> Seems to me that this would indicate that they don't automatically add any ROFR weeks to the trust - that would require them to remove the weeks from the trust in order to support selling them as deeded, which would complicate the transaction.  It might be more likely that Marriott has an inventory of unsold weeks that aren't in the trust that they do this with.


We have purchased 2 Hybrid-Bundles [WEEK + POINTS] over the years [MRD: 2016 & MCV: 2021].
Not sure where those weeks [sold by Marriott for ~$10K Each] came from.

On multiple occasions [Sales-Presentations] we were presented a list [dozens of resorts] of Deeded-Weeks to choose from.


----------



## rickandcindy23

catharsis said:


> Aren't these deeded week real estate transactions and therefore open public records?
> 
> Also - has anyone reported on TUG since 2010 that they purchased a week direct from Marriott (as opposed to their 'brokered' resale system, which is no longer operating) ?
> 
> You cannot sell something without a buyer, and you cannot sell real estate (weeks) without creating public records, so yes, I do think Marriott keep all ROFR'ed weeks, until there's any signs or evidence to the contrary.


The only records I have every looked for online were Horry County records to make sure my SBP weeks purchases have recorded.  I don't think many of us look at public records.  How could you possibly look at every resort in every county to see if someone previously owned a week? Why would you do that?  

I feel like I am pretty timeshare savvy, and I agree with Alan Cole when he says all timeshares are used, used, used. It's pretty rare to move into a timeshare that was just built and stay in a brand new unit. Even if you do get to do that once, the next year you are staying in a very used and sometimes abused unit.


----------



## rickandcindy23

DanCali said:


> The problem with the $3 "junk fee" is that it's totally up to Marriott. It was $1 in 2010 and raised over time. That obviously also contributes to the decline in resale prices since if a buyer is willing to pay $6, they won't pay $7 if Marriott increases the fee tomorrow by $1. Rather, the part that goes to the actual seller will be lower.
> 
> Resale prices bottomed out in the pandemic between $1-$2 and have ticked up slightly, like they did for many deeded weeks. Redweek prices:
> Marriott Vacation Club Points for Sale | RedWeek
> 
> I don't this they care if the bottom falls out - They can buy at ROFR and resell at full price or they can let it through and make the junk fee. They make money either way.


I have been considering buying some of these.  I wonder if I should buy some DC points that I see on ebay.  Maybe it's not a bad deal, if I can get a larger number of them.  How do you know what the underlying deeds are?  There has to be underlying deeds, right?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@DanCali I agree. It's what I call and evil-genius business model. With DP points the business becomes a points/deeds recycling model at the flip of an IT switch. Get others to pay for your mud week deeds via DP trust.  Dictate the value of the resales via your junk fee so they drop down to nothing and then you get almost free inventory (or make money on the junk fee). It is a Razor/Blade strategy with the blades being the expensive DP maint fee. (and boy do those MF cut!). The house makes all the rules...

Perhaps some find value in this. No thank you. Not for me. I will stick with my deeds because I keep some measure of control.


----------



## VacationForever

DanCali said:


> I suspect this happens as part of a transaction involving resale weeks enrollment (and has been reported by tuggers)
> 
> They first try to sell you points in exchange for enrolling resale weeks. If you tell them that you don't like the point MFs (ridiculously high) they can get more creative and will sell you a week in exchange for enrolling other resale weeks. However, my experience in such a presentation is that they still price that developer week as if it were points - meaning however many points it converts to x point price. The only difference is the MFs are based on the deeded week.



Not true.  After you decline to buy because DC points are too expensive, they then pull out a sheet with hybrid bundles, which is a combination of deeded week and matching DC points.  All weeks in the bundle are brokered resales for owners who want to sell weeks.  There are a few non-US location resorts that are offered up as straight up weeks as though they are points.


----------



## VacationForever

rickandcindy23 said:


> I have been considering buying some of these.  I wonder if I should buy some DC points that I see on ebay.  Maybe it's not a bad deal, if I can get a larger number of them.  How do you know what the underlying deeds are?  There has to be underlying deeds, right?


Resale points are just....Trust points. The deeds are held in the Trust.


----------



## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> Not true.  After you decline to buy because DC points are too expensive, they then pull out a sheet with hybrid bundles, which is a combination of deeded week and matching DC points.  All weeks in the bundle are brokered resales for owners who want to sell weeks.  There are a few non-US location resorts that are offered up as straight up weeks as though they are points.


When I was speaking with sales two years back I declined all DC point sales offers. They came back with a St Kitts unit worth a decent amount of DC points and a lower MF. Ultimately I didn’t want to spend $39K so I passed. If I had to buy direct in the future, that’s the deal I’d want to make. A resale enrolled week via Marriott for DC points.


----------



## VacationForever

ocdb8r said:


> I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying. A "Platinum" week at SMV is completely equal in both value and cost in VSN.
> 
> Every SMV "Platinum" week is *not equal *in both value and cost in MVC DPs.  For cost to reserve those weeks, MVC has created a whole separate division of the weeks (that doesn't map to what constitutes a "Platinum" week at SMV).  You are correct, the DP value any Platinum owner receives from MVC is the same, but it equates to an average (minus skim) of the DP value of all the "Platinum" weeks in MVC's "division" of the weeks.  The implication of this is that if the SMV "Platinum" season includes a substantial number of weeks that the "MVC division" allocates lower DP values, the average is lower and thus the DPs received is lower.


Isn't this the basis of DC points complexity which we have posted 76 pages on?

The question was why does SMV get such low DC point allocation to owners.   The answer is that it is a less desirable property compared to other ski resorts.

To draw a parallel would be WKV vs. SDO.  Many owners sought out SDO true platinum week for retro as it would give 148,100 SO.

With DC, WKV platinum week gets 4050 while SDO gets 2600 DC points. As long as VSN is around, SDO platinum owners won't be electing DC points.


----------



## VacationForever

CPNY said:


> When I was speaking with sales two years back I declined all DC point sales offers. They came back with a St Kitts unit worth a decent amount of DC points and a lower MF. Ultimately I didn’t want to spend $39K so I passed. If I had to buy direct in the future, that’s the deal I’d want to make. A resale enrolled week via Marriott for DC points.


Correct, St. Kitts is one of the resorts which MVC would offer the week straight up.


----------



## DanCali

rickandcindy23 said:


> I have been considering buying some of these.  I wonder if I should buy some DC points that I see on ebay.  Maybe it's not a bad deal, if I can get a larger number of them.  How do you know what the underlying deeds are?  There has to be underlying deeds, right?



I think some tuggers on the Marriott used to keep track of the deeds in the trust in the early years of the DC but I can't really find those references.

If you're thinking of buying points you should read the Sticky on the Marriott forum.









						Marriott Abound (formerly Destination Club) Points-System FAQ & Guide
					

** During 2022 Marriott Vacations Worldwide announced in Investor Meetings that Vistana timeshares would be integrated into the Marriott points system, and, that the Destination Club would be renamed Abound. After all details have been officially announced, this FAQ will be reviewed/edited to...




					tugbbs.com
				




The prevailing thought is that, while DC Trust Members have direct access to inventory in the DC Trust as well as inventory available through the DC Exchange Company, functionally most of that Trust inventory is available via the exchange company to all. Meaning you can access it with any enrolled week you might have.

I'd be wary of buying a lot of points given the high MFs and the fact that at least 50% of your upfront cost (junk fee) will likely never be recovered. Once you have access to the system (you can get that by buying just 1000 resale points or having an enrolled week) you can rent as many points as you need from others and use as needed. In my case I elected a week in 2022, and rented points for 2023 usage. Renting is very easy as long as you are careful about potential fraud. This is what my account looks like:


----------



## SueDonJ

catharsis said:


> Aren't these deeded week real estate transactions and therefore open public records?
> 
> Also - has anyone reported on TUG since 2010 that they purchased a week direct from Marriott (as opposed to their 'brokered' resale system, which is no longer operating) ?
> 
> You cannot sell something without a buyer, and you cannot sell real estate (weeks) without creating public records, so yes, I do think Marriott keep all ROFR'ed weeks, until there's any signs or evidence to the contrary.



Yes, public records can be searched for both Weeks sales and DC Trust conveyances.

Marriott hasn't ever disclosed whether they originally seeded the DC Trust with every Week that they still had in their inventory at the DC inception (whether unsold or re-acquired from owners,) nor have they disclosed how many un-conveyed (to the DC Trust) Weeks they've had in their inventory at any time since. I think the closest we can get is the dollar value in the annual investor statements of the unnamed inventory they're currently holding. As has been said, they seem to keep at least a portion un-conveyed to facilitate their Trust Points/Enrolled Weeks bundle packages.

As for anyone reporting the origin of any Weeks sold by Marriott since 2010, for all intents and purposes the re-acquired Weeks sold/brokered by Marriott are effectively direct purchases with all the associated benefits. One of my direct purchases long before the DC was a Marriott-brokered resale and the only reason we know that is because the paperwork references the original owner. Generally the question of whether a direct purchase from Marriott is an original never-sold Week or a re-acquired/brokered Week is not a distinction worth noting, because most (all?) of the eligibility/usage rules differentiate only between Marriott-direct or external-resale.


----------



## VacationForever

With my experience in both wanting Marriott to resell my weeks and puchase of a hybrid bundle, Marriott was simply a middle man.  I still have the documents for reselling and it was very clearly stated that Marriott was the broker and I would receive 60% several years ago and more recently, 50% of the sale price.

With the hybrid purchase, Marriott had to go back and forth with the seller because they both messed up the first use year.  I was sold year x as first use year but the paperwork was for year x + 1.  It was pretty messy as the seller had booked and planned to use year x week.  It took Marriott 4 months to correct the problem.


----------



## TravelTime

I do not understand the concept of skim when you convert SOs to DPs. It seems to me that the only reason to convert would be if you want to stay somewhere in the MVC system instead of staying at your home resort or using SOs for the Vistana resorts. So given that, why would skim matter?


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> I do not understand the concept of skim when you convert SOs to DPs. It seems to me that the only reason to convert would be if you want to stay somewhere in the MVC system instead of staying at your home resort or using SOs for the Vistana resorts. So given that, why would skim matter?



It matters only if you care that each time you convert you are getting slightly less than your week is actually worth. You're essentially paying a 6%-9% fee in points.

Think of it this way in the current SVN system - if a Maui week currently worth 148,100 SOs gave owners only 140,000 SOs when they elected to exchange (and Staroptions charts stay the same as now for booking purposes), does it matter? That's 5.4% less so it'd be almost exactly the same thing to what Marriott does with the DC, just much easier to observe the "skim" in this case. You could still book your home resort anytime in your season, or use 140,000 SOs in SVN to trade to other places. You could still get 2BR units in many places, even 10+ nights in some places, but you might not be happy with what you can get at higher end resorts during higher demand weeks - maybe now you get only 6 nights instead of 7 in some places. But it's not your home resort - it's an exchange, so would it matter to you then?


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> I do not understand the concept of skim when you convert SOs to DPs. It seems to me that the only reason to convert would be if you want to stay somewhere in the MVC system instead of staying at your home resort or using SOs for the Vistana resorts. So given that, why would skim matter?


It actually matters but I have rationalized that they need to do so to cover flexibility and extra cleanings.

Here is why.  Let's say there are two identical resorts wrt desirability, size etc. Resort A and B would each require 4000 DC points to book a week. I own at resort A and would like to travel to resort B.  MVC only gives me 3500 DC points for my week. Oops, I don't have enough to book 7 days at resort B.  I can only book 6 days.

If I want more points, then I will need to pony up some money to buy the 500 points, either as renting points from other owners or buy more points! (Music to MVC's ears!)


----------



## catharsis

DanCali said:


> I suspect this happens as part of a transaction involving resale weeks enrollment (and has been reported by tuggers)
> 
> They first try to sell you points in exchange for enrolling resale weeks. If you tell them that you don't like the point MFs (ridiculously high) they can get more creative and will sell you a week in exchange for enrolling other resale weeks. However, my experience in such a presentation is that they still price that developer week as if it were points - meaning however many points it converts to x point price. The only difference is the MFs are based on the deeded week.


I always understood that those hybrid deals either involved a 'brokered' week (i.e. not owned by Marriott - no longer happening) or more recently a week in the Caribbean, typically.   I cannot recall any example of someone being offered such a hybrid purchase including any week within the US since they closed the broker operation.

Hence I continue to think Marriott have never sold a developer week in the US which they owned or bought through ROFR since 2010.   I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong on this, but not seen any evidence to that effect up to now.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> It actually matters but I have rationalized that they need to do so to cover flexibility and extra cleanings.
> 
> Here is why.  Let's say there are two identical resorts wrt desirability, size etc. Resort A and B would each require 4000 DC points to book a week. I own at resort A and would like to travel to resort B.  MVC only gives me 3500 DC points for my week. Oops, I don't have enough to book 7 days at resort B.  I can only book 6 days.
> 
> If I want more points, then I will need to pony up some money to buy the 500 points, either as renting points from other owners or buy more points! (Music to MVC's ears!)



Okay I understand this. However, I still wonder if I care. For example, I get 4950 DPs EOY for my Ko Olina unit. It is less than my ocean view week in most cases if not all. However, if I want to go somewhere else, then I appreciate getting 4950 points because many places I go cost less than that. If I want to go to someplace more expensive like Maui, then I pony up the extra points with other DPs I own or I could rent the difference at the same cost as MFs if I do not have points. Maui OF is more expensive than Ko Olina so it is understandable I would need more points. However, it would be nice if they did not skim for Ko Olina and I could get 5000+ points that is equivalent to most seasons I can book at Ko Olina. 

This year I went to Ko Olina and did not use my week. I used DPs in spite of the skim. I was able to stay in the penthouse using DPs as well as go in an odd year even though my week is in an even year. I just think converting to DPs, even with a skim, can give more flexibility.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> I just think converting to DPs, even with a skim, can give more flexibility.



This is probably how most owners feel (and how MVC thought they would feel).

My NCV Platinum week converts to only 3475 and that can still get me a week in a 2BR at many resorts during many weeks of the year. But I'm still paying for that privilege since that week should be worth around 3700 DC points.

The "skim" also can change an owner's calculations in terms of election for points or renting. If I can rent my NCV week for $2800 (in reality is a bit more) and use that to rent 4000 points, I am not sure I want to use it to elect only 3475 DPs. I may be more likely to elect points and avoid the rental workaround if the comparison was 3700 vs 4000.

Compared to the Platinum week, it's a much easier decision or me to elect 5300 points for a Platinum Plus NCV week (even with skim) because the disparity vs. rental is immaterial, or even favors points slightly.


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> Okay I understand this. However, I still wonder if I care. For example, I get 4950 DPs EOY for my Ko Olina unit. It is less than my ocean view week in most cases if not all. However, if I want to go somewhere else, then I appreciate getting 4950 points because many places I go cost less than that. If I want to go to someplace more expensive like Maui, then I pony up the extra points with other DPs I own or I could rent the difference at the same cost as MFs if I do not have points. Maui OF is more expensive than Ko Olina so it is understandable I would need more points. However, it would be nice if they did not skim for Ko Olina and I could get 5000+ points that is equivalent to most seasons I can book at Ko Olina.
> 
> This year I went to Ko Olina and did not use my week. I used DPs in spite of the skim. I was able to stay in the penthouse using DPs as well as go in an odd year even though my week is in an even year. I just think converting to DPs, even with a skim, can give more flexibility.



If you own highly desirable weeks where you get many DC points, then you don't care about skim because you are mainly going to use the points to travel to cheaper DC points resorts, turning a week into 2 weeks or more.

I don't own Hawaii resorts because I don't like want to commit to hopping on a plane for vacation with any sort of regularity.  So owners like me feel the skim when I want to trade into similar resorts which I own.  Fortunately, for where we want to go, it is an easy trade in II.  While we are in the DC program, and everything that we bought are post June 2010, we don't use really use points too much.  I have rented out my 2020 and 2021 points to cover my MF+. We are now in the midst of deciding what to do in 2022 with our 2021 banked points and 2022 points , maybe a Collette tour, an owners' cruise or owners event.


----------



## grgs

VacationForever said:


> With DC, WKV platinum week gets 4050 while SDO gets 2600 DC points. As long as VSN is around, SDO platinum owners won't be electing DC points.



Do we know (as much as we know anything at this point) if the SDO DP allocation of 2600 for a 1-52 float unit or a true Plat unit?


----------



## MICROZE

grgs said:


> Do we know (as much as we know anything at this point) if the SDO DP allocation of 2600 for a 1-52 float unit or a true Plat unit?


Based on this image someone uploaded earlier in this thread I suspect it will be ~2600 for a 2BR-PLAT-Unit.
Since I can see only half the sheet and the #'s for exchanging into a 2BR seem quite low [1450, 1725] with JAN-27 -> APR-08 [3125].


----------



## VacationForever

grgs said:


> Do we know (as much as we know anything at this point) if the SDO DP allocation of 2600 for a 1-52 float unit or a true Plat unit?


@jabberwocky reported it that SDO true platinum gets 2600 DC points.


----------



## CKMason

We are currently at Sheraton Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach and attended a sales presentation for Vistana on April 23. According to the salesperson the locations in Myrtle Beach and in Orlando (both Marriott and Vistana) are engaged in “pre-rollout” sales presentations relating to the rollout of the “blended” system on July 1—or as our salesperson put it “late summer”. In addition to the presentations at Myrtle Beach and Orlando, there are also dog and pony shows for invited owners in other locations, including Washington DC.

Before I go further, you need to know that our situation may not be typical. We are 3-Star Elite with Vistana and Chairman’s Club with Marriott all with developer purchases. (Yes, I know but that is a discussion for another time.). I do not know how Vistana/Marriott will handle resale purchases in this new system.

According to what the salespersons (one from the Vistana side and one from the Marriott side) told us, if you buy into the blended system, both your StarOptions and your Marriott ownership (for us points and weeks) will show up together on both the Vistana dashboard and the Marriott web account. You will be able to move, at no further cost, Vistana points into Destination Points and vice versa. You will be able to make Marriott reservations in the Vistana system and vice-versa. If you have an II account for Marriott and one for Vistana, those will also be merged into one account. The blended system will also move your Vistana points into the Marriott Trust, which will then allow for Vistana StarOptions to be resold to Marriott [Vistana currently does not do buy-backs] and, according to the sales people, will ease inheritance issues, especially if your children don’t want the timeshares [never could get this straight in my mind, except that with Vistana, it appears that the timeshares roll into your estate automatically, but I thought that the executor could always reject them.]

In addition, instead of the various fees that Vistana charges [banking, point conversion to Marriott Bonvoy, II fees for internal (Marriott to Vistana and vice-versa) exchanges, reservation cancellations, guest fees], these will now all be covered by the standard Marriott fee for the appropriate level, The Marriott fee covers both Vistana and Marriott membership, but I suspect it will go up proportionately. In addition, there will be no more housekeeping fees as we now experience with Vistana when the number of uses of points exceeds a certain level.

In the blended system, there is no more Home Resort window for reservations. All Vistana resorts will be able to be booked 12 months out and all Marriott resorts 13 months out, at least for Chairman’s Club level members. I am assuming that to book a Marriott with Vistana StarOptions, one would first have to convert the number needed and then the timeframe would apply.

The process requires one to turn in their current ownership of StarOptions and repurchase at the current StarOption point value. We were given full credit for the dollars we spent on our current ownership plus credit for an Explorer package we had purchased earlier plus credit for the hotels we stayed in on the road getting to Myrtle Beach. [They give up to 10 days credit coming and going; we got a good deal because we stayed on Marriott Bonvoy points on our trip and got credit for full value of the room rate.].

We have 176,700 StarOptions which would be valued at 5,140 Destination Points in the blended system. [34.37 StarOptions to 1 Destination Club Point]. It does appear that there will still be some “skim” in the system from Vistana to Marriott. I did a quick analysis comparing 2-bedroom lockouts in prime time [February/March] for Marriott Desert Springs II [3,775 Destination Club Points] and Westin Mission Hills [148,100 StarOptions] with the result of 39.23 StarOptions points to 1 Destination Club Point]. [Purchase price: 34.37; spend price 39.23]. Even in the blended system, it probably would be better to use StarOptions for Vistana resorts and Destination Club points for Marriott resorts.

The claim is, and I have no idea if it is true, it will be more expensive on the Marriott side to buy into the system. Essentially the current going price for a StarOption is about $.43 per point which should make a Marriott Destination Club point run about $14.72.

That is pretty much my brain dump about what we were told. Of course, there is NO paperwork to undergird the statements made. We are supposed to get it in the coming weeks as the system rolls out for good. Caveat emptor.

I will post this on the Marriott Board for their information also.


----------



## DanCali

CKMason said:


> We are currently at Sheraton Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach and attended a sales presentation for Vistana on April 23....
> 
> Before I go further, you need to know that our situation may not be typical. We are 3-Star Elite with Vistana and Chairman’s Club with Marriott all with developer purchases. (Yes, I know but that is a discussion for another time.). I do not know how Vistana/Marriott will handle resale purchases in this new system.
> 
> The process requires one to turn in their current ownership of StarOptions and repurchase at the current StarOption point value. We were given full credit for the dollars we spent on our current ownership plus credit for an Explorer package we had purchased earlier plus credit for the hotels we stayed in on the road getting to Myrtle Beach. [They give up to 10 days credit coming and going; we got a good deal because we stayed on Marriott Bonvoy points on our trip and got credit for full value of the room rate.].



Did you actually make an additional purchase/upgrade in this presentation from 5 days ago? It sounds like you might have, but I am not sure.

Since everything was already a developer purchase for you, I highly doubt that was necessary to gain access to any new system.

You statement about "The process requires one to turn in their current ownership of StarOptions and repurchase at the current StarOption point value" - sounds like they just "marked to market" a prior developer purchase of a week or Flex points?


----------



## CKMason

DanCali said:


> Did you actually make an additional purchase/upgrade in this presentation from 5 days ago? It sounds like you might have, but I am not sure.
> 
> Since everything was already a developer purchase for you, I highly doubt that was necessary to gain access to any new system.
> 
> You statement about "The process requires one to turn in their current ownership of StarOptions and repurchase at the current StarOption point value" - sounds like they just "marked to market" a prior developer purchase of a week or Flex points?


Yes we fell for their presentation, mostly because by the time they gave us all the credits, it was not exorbitant in cost.  Also my memory of how Marriott DC points increased very fast after the first offer played into our decision. We also get to use our Encore package, but without having to attend the timeshare presentation. And we save a considerable amount in maintenance fees since we skip a year of usage [new package starts in 2024]. We have bonus and banked points to use up, so using these and saving the maintenance fee also played into our decision. 

Yes, they did mark to market the StarOptions. As I said, it worked for us because of all the credits, but it might now work for very many other folks. That's why I wanted to put this information out for people to have when Marriott or Vistana comes calling.


----------



## byeloe

I think they manipulated the facts in order to sell you something, but time will tell for sure.  Glad that you are satisfied with your purchase


----------



## sharr7

What exactly was traded in and then what was received/purchased?

It sounds like a lot of "benefit" of what you received is the promise that every point (SO/DP) you own will just flow freely and effortlessly between systems. And that without this purchase that was not possible. 

No one knows for sure but there's a lot of speculation that developer purchases (and enrolled) will have full access to whatever exchanges are permitted between systems.


----------



## DanCali

CKMason said:


> Yes we fell for their presentation, mostly because by the time they gave us all the credits, it was not exorbitant in cost.  Also my memory of how Marriott DC points increased very fast after the first offer played into our decision. We also get to use our Encore package, but without having to attend the timeshare presentation. And we save a considerable amount in maintenance fees since we skip a year of usage [new package starts in 2024]. We have bonus and banked points to use up, so using these and saving the maintenance fee also played into our decision.
> 
> Yes, they did mark to market the StarOptions. As I said, it worked for us because of all the credits, but it might now work for very many other folks. That's why I wanted to put this information out for people to have when Marriott or Vistana comes calling.




When you say they "marked to market the StarOptions" - Did you give up a deeded week you had previously purchased, or was it Flex points that they just repriced?

Like I said, even if not exorbitant cost, it seems to me like it was unnecessary. But you've been on this message board longer than I have, so you already know what the sentiment here is. You can still rescind...

I'll just add that if your usage starts in 2024 and your maintenance fees start in 2024 you are not really saving on maintenance fees - just deferring usage on something you own and the cost associated with it. Was that part of the "credits" they presumably gave you? Did you get any bonus (one time use) points as part of the deal?

Marriott DC points cost did increase since the launch. Gives me an excuse to tell a salesperson that if I didn't buy at $10, why would I buy at $15?   Money invested in the stock market over the past 12 years is way ahead of the increase in the cost of DC points, so I'm glad kept the money where I did (and it's not like the value of DC points purchased in 2010 increased with their developer selling price)


----------



## CKMason

DanCali said:


> When you say they "marked to market the StarOptions" - Did you give up a deeded week you had previously purchased, or was it Flex points that they just repriced?
> 
> Like I said, even if not exorbitant cost, it seems to me like it was unnecessary. But you've been on this message board longer than I have, so you already know what the sentiment here is. You can still rescind...
> 
> I'll just add that if your usage starts in 2024 and your maintenance fees start in 2024 you are not really saving on maintenance fees - just deferring usage on something you own and the cost associated with it. Was that part of the "credits" they presumably gave you? Did you get any bonus (one time use) points as part of the deal?
> 
> Marriott DC points cost did increase since the launch. Gives me an excuse to tell a salesperson that if I didn't buy at $10, why would I buy at $15?


We had Flex points only which were repriced. And you are right about the maintenance fee, but as I pointed out, we really don't need the StarOptions for which we pay a maintenance fee for 2023, so that worked in our favor. Deferring the maintenance fee was not part of the credits, but part of our decision making.

We did get 68,000 StarOptions as bonus points. We had an alternate choice of 113,000 Bonvoy points but did not have a need for those.

We may have gotten "stung" but this was an offer and so far what has been on this board is speculation.


----------



## kozykritter

CKMason said:


> We are currently at Sheraton Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach and attended a sales presentation for Vistana on April 23. According to the salesperson the locations in Myrtle Beach and in Orlando (both Marriott and Vistana) are engaged in “pre-rollout” sales presentations relating to the rollout of the “blended” system on July 1—or as our salesperson put it “late summer”. In addition to the presentations at Myrtle Beach and Orlando, there are also dog and pony shows for invited owners in other locations, including Washington DC.
> 
> Before I go further, you need to know that our situation may not be typical. We are 3-Star Elite with Vistana and Chairman’s Club with Marriott all with developer purchases. (Yes, I know but that is a discussion for another time.). I do not know how Vistana/Marriott will handle resale purchases in this new system.
> 
> According to what the salespersons (one from the Vistana side and one from the Marriott side) told us, if you buy into the blended system, both your StarOptions and your Marriott ownership (for us points and weeks) will show up together on both the Vistana dashboard and the Marriott web account. You will be able to move, at no further cost, Vistana points into Destination Points and vice versa. You will be able to make Marriott reservations in the Vistana system and vice-versa. If you have an II account for Marriott and one for Vistana, those will also be merged into one account. The blended system will also move your Vistana points into the Marriott Trust, which will then allow for Vistana StarOptions to be resold to Marriott [Vistana currently does not do buy-backs] and, according to the sales people, will ease inheritance issues, especially if your children don’t want the timeshares [never could get this straight in my mind, except that with Vistana, it appears that the timeshares roll into your estate automatically, but I thought that the executor could always reject them.]
> 
> In addition, instead of the various fees that Vistana charges [banking, point conversion to Marriott Bonvoy, II fees for internal (Marriott to Vistana and vice-versa) exchanges, reservation cancellations, guest fees], these will now all be covered by the standard Marriott fee for the appropriate level, The Marriott fee covers both Vistana and Marriott membership, but I suspect it will go up proportionately. In addition, there will be no more housekeeping fees as we now experience with Vistana when the number of uses of points exceeds a certain level.
> 
> In the blended system, there is no more Home Resort window for reservations. All Vistana resorts will be able to be booked 12 months out and all Marriott resorts 13 months out, at least for Chairman’s Club level members. I am assuming that to book a Marriott with Vistana StarOptions, one would first have to convert the number needed and then the timeframe would apply.
> 
> The process requires one to turn in their current ownership of StarOptions and repurchase at the current StarOption point value. We were given full credit for the dollars we spent on our current ownership plus credit for an Explorer package we had purchased earlier plus credit for the hotels we stayed in on the road getting to Myrtle Beach. [They give up to 10 days credit coming and going; we got a good deal because we stayed on Marriott Bonvoy points on our trip and got credit for full value of the room rate.].
> 
> We have 176,700 StarOptions which would be valued at 5,140 Destination Points in the blended system. [34.37 StarOptions to 1 Destination Club Point]. It does appear that there will still be some “skim” in the system from Vistana to Marriott. I did a quick analysis comparing 2-bedroom lockouts in prime time [February/March] for Marriott Desert Springs II [3,775 Destination Club Points] and Westin Mission Hills [148,100 StarOptions] with the result of 39.23 StarOptions points to 1 Destination Club Point]. [Purchase price: 34.37; spend price 39.23]. Even in the blended system, it probably would be better to use StarOptions for Vistana resorts and Destination Club points for Marriott resorts.
> 
> The claim is, and I have no idea if it is true, it will be more expensive on the Marriott side to buy into the system. Essentially the current going price for a StarOption is about $.43 per point which should make a Marriott Destination Club point run about $14.72.
> 
> That is pretty much my brain dump about what we were told. Of course, there is NO paperwork to undergird the statements made. We are supposed to get it in the coming weeks as the system rolls out for good. Caveat emptor.
> 
> I will post this on the Marriott Board for their information also.


Thanks for the brain dump! Interesting to see the sales approach taken with someone that owns a significant portion in both systems. One has to wonder how much of what they said would actually apply to a Vistana-only owner but I guess that's one of the burning questions of this thread


----------



## DanCali

CKMason said:


> We may have gotten "stung" but this was an offer and so far what has been on this board is speculation.



So, if I understand correctly, the offer was to:

(1) Take 176,000 Flex points you bought from the developer some years ago, reprice them at current price (e.g., pay another X cents per point that you already own)
(2) Sweeten the financial impact with credits for an explorer package and hotels you paid for on the recent trip,
(3) Add 67,000 one time use Staroptions that you can use in the next 2 years or so.

And they represented that if you did this you would gain access to the new system planned to launch later this year, but you would be locked out if not? Even though all your prior SVN and MVC purchases were from the developer?


----------



## Mulege

Hh


----------



## CPNY

Interesting, according to your sales rep Marriott owners can convert DC points to SO? I haven’t heard that before.


----------



## Eric B

CPNY said:


> Interesting, according to your sales rep Marriott owners can convert DC points to SO? I haven’t heard that before.



Thought that was interesting, too - plus Marriott owners would be able to book anywhere at 12 months because somehow they are doing away with home resorts.

The other nice thing is avoiding the mandatory inheritance provisions that the current Vistana ownership is somehow able to impose on your heirs regardless of State laws allowing refusal.


----------



## DanCali

CPNY said:


> Interesting, according to your sales rep Marriott owners can convert DC points to SO? I haven’t heard that before.




Perhaps that could work - if a Flex owner trades for DC points, why not allow someone else to trade DC points back for the Flex points?

They could refer to that as "Skim two owners with one stone!" or "Skim two owners with no trade!"


----------



## CPNY

DanCali said:


> Perhaps that could work - if a Flex owner trades for DC points, why not allow someone else to trade DC points back for the Flex points?
> 
> They could refer to that as "Skim two owners with one stone!" or "Skim two owners with no trade!"


Would those Marriott owners be bound to VSN booking rules? That would effectively kill the VSN for deeded week owners who may want to use SO at 8 months


----------



## CPNY

Eric B said:


> Thought that was interesting, too - plus Marriott owners would be able to book anywhere at 12 months because somehow they are doing away with home resorts.
> 
> The other nice thing is avoiding the mandatory inheritance provisions that the current Vistana ownership is somehow able to impose on your heirs regardless of State laws allowing refusal.


I think they have it wrong, I can’t see Marriott owners converting to SO. If they are trying to move everyone to DC points, why would they allow DC points convert to a system they would love to discontinue. Marriott owns enough vistana inventory to fund the DC exchange to make available for DC owners at launch, plus whatever inventory VSN owners convert. This is why I think inventory in the VSN will be diminished. Today, to my knowledge Marriott funds some inventory in the VSN, Interval, and their rental program. I can see less staying in the VSN. They can use the network rules and fund the DC exchange instead of the VSN.


----------



## remowidget

CPNY said:


> Interesting, according to your sales rep Marriott owners can convert DC points to SO? I haven’t heard that before.


Sales has been telling us this for years. ie, we won't be able to book at 8 months because the Marriot owners will be booking everything up. So...

I don't buy it. It just doesn't make sense. What is being suggested about Vistana to Marriott transfers does make sense. It makes sense to me that if I transfer my ownership to Destination Points, my Vistana Ownership will transfer into Marriott for Marriott owners to book. There is a debit/credit transfer balancing the DC Trust. It makes sense that they will only sell Destination Points in the future. However, does it make sense that Marriott owners will be able to do the reverse? If so, we will be able to book Marriott properties in Vistana with StarOptions. Where are the pages showing how many StarOptions it will take to book Marriott resorts. If I buy that Marriott will only sell Destination Points in the future, why would they allow the trade to go the other way. It makes no sense.


----------



## DanCali

CPNY said:


> Would those Marriott owners be bound to VSN booking rules? That would effectively kill the VSN for deeded week owners who may want to use SO at 8 months



I would imagine that whatever you exchange to you'd be bound by those rules. If you trade for Flex points you can use them as Flex points.

However, my previous comment was more in jest - I also think DC points is the only currency people will exchange to. Too complicated to learn the Flex system if you come from a totally different system.


----------



## dioxide45

So far, we have seen no indication anywhere that DC owners could convert to StarOptions and I certainly wouldn't expect that. Now, it could be possible for the MVC Exchange Company or DC trust to come into control of weeks that are part of VSN. Think along the lines of a mandatory week owner but instead that week is in the DC Trust. Couldn't the DC Trust effectively use StarOptions at 8 months to book anything in VSN? It has been long thought that there is some movement of inventory between DC and II when the need arises. DC either exchanges for inventory in II or the MVC Exchange Company and II have a relationship where they can swap inventory.

In any event, DC points if they could even convert to SOs wouldn't be able to pull inventory out any earlier than eight months.

We also have the situation where someone elects Club Points on their Sheraton or Westin Flex VOI. Once that is in the DC Exchange Company, the exchange company can then book just about anything available from the Sheraton or Westin Flex trust at the 12 month mark in order to fulfill a reservation request.


----------



## remowidget

[QUOTE="dioxide45, post: 2776058, member: 12397"
In any event, DC points if they could even convert to SOs wouldn't be able to pull inventory out any earlier than eight months.

We also have the situation where someone elects Club Points on their Sheraton or Westin Flex VOI. Once that is in the DC Exchange Company, the exchange company can then book just about anything available from the Sheraton or Westin Flex trust at the 12 month mark in order to fulfill a reservation request.
[/QUOTE]
They probably could cook the books to some extent that way, but if they were going to do that why not just take all the best weeks to sell for cash? It seems unlikely to me that they would care at this level. They want to make their program better to sell more Destination Points. I'd bet they are doing their best to not alienate Vistana owners, who are their second best potential group of customers.


----------



## dioxide45

remowidget said:


> They probably could cook the books to some extent that way, but if they were going to do that why not just take all the best weeks to sell for cash? It seems unlikely to me that they would care at this level. They want to make their program better to sell more Destination Points. I'd bet they are doing their best to not alienate Vistana owners, who are their second best potential group of customers.


It isn't really cooking the books by doing this. It would be within the usage rights of the inventory they own/hold. Vistana owns some unsold Flex inventory and they do attempt to rent that off for cash on Marriott.com. MVC does the same with unsold inventory they hold.


----------



## MICROZE

I saw a Training-Video that explicitly stated that this would be a ONE-WAY integration.
Vistana-SO --> Marriott-DC ONLY.


----------



## byeloe

exactly, it seems pretty clear that the "2 salesman" had their routine down pat


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> Interesting, according to your sales rep Marriott owners can convert DC points to SO? I haven’t heard that before.



Perhaps this was just salesspeak for the ability to obtain reservations at Vistana resorts using DPs.


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## remowidget

Ken555 said:


> Perhaps this was just salesspeak for the ability to obtain reservations at Vistana resorts using DPs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


OMG. Lol. Brave to stand up for the salespeople on the tug.


----------



## Ken555

remowidget said:


> OMG. Lol. Brave to stand up for the salespeople. On the tug.



 

No, not defending. Interpreting the sales weasels was a 400 level collegiate course I took long ago…


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## vacationtime1

Ken555 said:


> No, not defending. Interpreting the sales weasels was a 400 level collegiate course I took long ago…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That course is now offered here on TUG for free.

Let's see:  (1) if their lips move, they are probably lying; (2) if it's not in writing, it doesn't count.

But wait -- why don't those rules apply to this thread?


----------



## Ken555

vacationtime1 said:


> That course is now offered here on TUG for free.
> 
> Let's see: (1) if their lips move, they are probably lying; (2) if it's not in writing, it doesn't count.
> 
> But wait -- why don't those rules apply to this thread?



I’ve been wondering that for almost 2000 posts…as I referred to in post #2 


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## GregT

I am going to speculate that there will be no discernible reservations activity/new inventory of Starwood properties at 8 months out (using DC points).   I think that when Marriott DC users get access to a Starwood week, it will be 12 months out, when whatever Westin and Sheraton weeks are deposited to the Trust are eligible to reserve, or based upon Marriott's forecasted election of Westin and Sheraton weeks.

The only thing I can see get matched 8 months out is if there is a Waitlist request that was started in Marriott DC system, and I would further speculate the Marriott would only match that waitlist request (pulling from VSN inventory) if it was a brief period after the 8 month window -- giving a modest headstart to VSN owners -- kind of like the preference period within II.   3 days?  A week?

I really do believe that Marriott doesn't intend to disenfranchise existing owners and does not intend to use its leverage to cherry pick a desirable inventory week from VSN.      I also am jaded and think Marriott doesn't really care if the Waitlist request clears but does care about avoiding a nasty dispute about its stewardship of VSN inventory.

So I don't think they will jump the line at 8 months out.   We will see.

Best,

Greg


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> Perhaps this was just salesspeak for the ability to obtain reservations at Vistana resorts using DPs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That’s what I figured but like the game of telephone…


----------



## daviator

CPNY said:


> That’s what I figured but like the game of telephone…


This whole thing is like the game of telephone – including this thread.  July can't come soon enough, because all of the conflicting information and speculation is getting a little old.

The latest person posting about what they were told and promised – they even spent money based on that – were told very different things, apparently, than I was told during an update just a week ago.  And it's all different from what Denise's secret source has said.  So what to believe?  Believe what they put in writing, because everything else is *at best* like a game of telephone, several people down the chain... and at worst, is just lies.


----------



## DanCali

daviator said:


> The latest person posting about what they were told and promised – they even spent money based on that – were told very different things, apparently, than I was told during an update just a week ago. And it's all different from what Denise's secret source has said. So what to believe? .



It’s simple. They know what you own. They will ask some seemingly harmless questions in the guise of smalltalk to find out how you think. Then they will tell you exactly what they think you hear so you sign the dotted line before you leave. 

Everyone has different triggers. Everyone hears a different story. 


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## cjscotto

I'm new to TUG and I apologize in advance if any of this has been addressed elsewhere. I tried searching the thread...but it is voluminous.

I own several MVC units PLUS Vistana - Atlantis

Has MVC outlined what/how Atlantis will integrate to MVC?

Again...apologies if this has been asked and answered.


----------



## kozykritter

cjscotto said:


> I'm new to TUG and I apologize in advance if any of this has been addressed elsewhere. I tried searching the thread...but it is voluminous.
> 
> I own several MVC units PLUS Vistana - Atlantis
> 
> Has MVC outlined what/how Atlantis will integrate to MVC?
> 
> Again...apologies if this has been asked and answered.


Do a search of this thread for the word Harborside to get caught up on it.


----------



## rickandcindy23

DanCali said:


> It’s simple. They know what you own. They will ask some seemingly harmless questions in the guise of smalltalk to find out how you think. Then they will tell you exactly what they think you hear so you sign the dotted line before you leave.
> 
> Everyone has different triggers. Everyone hears a different story.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You hit the nail on the head.


----------



## CPNY

daviator said:


> This whole thing is like the game of telephone – including this thread.  July can't come soon enough, because all of the conflicting information and speculation is getting a little old.
> 
> The latest person posting about what they were told and promised – they even spent money based on that – were told very different things, apparently, than I was told during an update just a week ago.  And it's all different from what Denise's secret source has said.  So what to believe?  Believe what they put in writing, because everything else is *at best* like a game of telephone, several people down the chain... and at worst, is just lies.


Wait… July? I thought it was June LOL. We can’t even get that right haha


----------



## CPNY

cjscotto said:


> I'm new to TUG and I apologize in advance if any of this has been addressed elsewhere. I tried searching the thread...but it is voluminous.
> 
> I own several MVC units PLUS Vistana - Atlantis
> 
> Has MVC outlined what/how Atlantis will integrate to MVC?
> 
> Again...apologies if this has been asked and answered.


It is written in the fine print of whatever was rolled out, Harborside at Atlantis will be eligible to be converted at a future date. Apparently in 2022 for 2024 reservations.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I will tell you two big changes with the new owner services people at Vistana:  1) They have no idea what they are doing when it comes to booking reservations over a year out for my deeded weeks; and 2) Locking off a unit into a two bedroom and a one bedroom is a chore they do not seem to know how to accomplish.

From now on I will book my SBP lockoffs as two sides separately and not book the full lockoff. The resort will put the units back together for those who need it. 

Clueless people.

This brings me to a question about my new ownership at Westin Ka'anapali because I have two weeks reserved in the full unit, full lockoff, for one date.  Am I going to get the studio side of the unit keyed differently?  Basically, I am asking if I can add guests added to that studio side.  We have no need of the full 2 bedroom lockoff, we just want the one bedroom side. 

This owner services guy was talking about this process of locking off units and trying to find new reservations for the same dates.  I was lost with what he was saying, thinking, "What??????"  Then I realized he is talking Staroptions, most likely.


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## VacationForever

rickandcindy23 said:


> This brings me to a question about my new ownership at Westin Ka'anapali because I have two weeks reserved in the full unit, full lockoff, for one date.  Am I going to get the studio side of the unit keyed differently?  Basically, I am asking if I can add guests added to that studio side.  We have no need of the full 2 bedroom lockoff, we just want the one bedroom side.



Can you not have owner services split the 2BR L/O into 2 separate reservations if it is not already done in the background?  Based on my recent experience, they showed up as 2 reservations in marriott.com even though I had booked 2BR L/O as one reservation.  Having 2 reservations for my booking got me concerned that they were going to split my room up.


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## remowidget

rickandcindy23 said:


> From now on I will book my SBP lockoffs as two sides separately and not book the full lockoff. The resort will put the units back together for those who need it.
> 
> Clueless people.


If you don't want to deal with clueless people, book online. I mostly have booked online and prefer it as I can see exactly what is available and what I'm booking.


----------



## vacation dreaming

rickandcindy23 said:


> I will tell you two big changes with the new owner services people at Vistana:  1) They have no idea what they are doing when it comes to booking reservations over a year out for my deeded weeks; and 2) Locking off a unit into a two bedroom and a one bedroom is a chore they do not seem to know how to accomplish.
> 
> From now on I will book my SBP lockoffs as two sides separately and not book the full lockoff. The resort will put the units back together for those who need it.
> 
> Clueless people.
> 
> This brings me to a question about my new ownership at Westin Ka'anapali because I have two weeks reserved in the full unit, full lockoff, for one date.  Am I going to get the studio side of the unit keyed differently?  Basically, I am asking if I can add guests added to that studio side.  We have no need of the full 2 bedroom lockoff, we just want the one bedroom side.
> 
> This owner services guy was talking about this process of locking off units and trying to find new reservations for the same dates.  I was lost with what he was saying, thinking, "What??????"  Then I realized he is talking Staroptions, most likely.


I have been going to Westin Ka’anapali for 18 years and they always ask how I want the rooms keyed.  If I have guests, I give them the guests names at checkin and they had no problem adding them.  We have also given two different credit cards for room charges to the two rooms, but that was messed up once.  I would, however, be more concerned about assuming the resort will put the rooms together if you have reserved the lock-off separately.  These rooms are assigned based on time stamps and I wouldn’t assume that they would be willing to put them together.


----------



## steve1000

I have a question regarding the 13 month window for post-combination reservations.  If I own a resale Marriott week and I also own a resale Westin week both in the same season for which I would like to book consecutive back to back reservations will I be able to do so under the Marriott 13 month window?  Would the result be different if both weeks were developer purchased? Or in order to use the 13 month window must both weeks be Marriott timeshares? I know if they were both Marriott timeshares the 13 month window would clearly be available. If they are both developer purchased I don't think that we know for sure how this would work but I suspect once there is guidance it would ultimately be permissible.  What if only the Westin timeshare was developer purchased would that be sufficient to utilize the 13 month window? Not sure it would affect the above analysis but I believe I will be Presidential or Chairman's level once the combination is effected. This might all be speculation but I would appreciate your thoughts.


----------



## TravelTime

Someone mentioned earlier that in the new program, the 8 month booking window will go away and all Westin properties will be bookable at 12 months. They said Marriott properties will still be at 13 months. To me, this does not make a lot of sense for people who are buying direct from MVC. I would hope I could use my DPs at 13 months to book any property in the new integrated program. If someone has paid MVC for an integrated program, shouldn’t they get the same benefits listed on the MVC benefits chart based on their total DPs (including converted SOs to DPs)?


----------



## VacationForever

steve1000 said:


> I have a question regarding the 13 month window for post-combination reservations.  If I own a resale Marriott week and I also own a resale Westin week both in the same season for which I would like to book consecutive back to back reservations will I be able to do so under the Marriott 13 month window?  Would the result be different if both weeks were developer purchased? Or in order to use the 13 month window must both weeks be Marriott timeshares? I know if they were both Marriott timeshares the 13 month window would clearly be available. If they are both developer purchased I don't think that we know for sure how this would work but I suspect once there is guidance it would ultimately be permissible.  What if only the Westin timeshare was developer purchased would that be sufficient to utilize the 13 month window? Not sure it would affect the above analysis but I believe I will be Presidential or Chairman's level once the combination is effected. This might all be speculation but I would appreciate your thoughts.



In Marriott system, you don't need developer-purchased week to be able to book at 13 months out for 2 consecutive or concurrent weeks.  My guess would be MVC would allow 13 months booking for Westin weeks as well.  Who knows!


----------



## DanCali

steve1000 said:


> I have a question regarding the 13 month window for post-combination reservations.  If I own a resale Marriott week and I also own a resale Westin week both in the same season for which I would like to book consecutive back to back reservations will I be able to do so under the Marriott 13 month window?  Would the result be different if both weeks were developer purchased? Or in order to use the 13 month window must both weeks be Marriott timeshares? I know if they were both Marriott timeshares the 13 month window would clearly be available. If they are both developer purchased I don't think that we know for sure how this would work but I suspect once there is guidance it would ultimately be permissible.  What if only the Westin timeshare was developer purchased would that be sufficient to utilize the 13 month window? Not sure it would affect the above analysis but I believe I will be Presidential or Chairman's level once the combination is effected. This might all be speculation but I would appreciate your thoughts.



You would only be able to book the Westin timeshare with points at 13 months out. I don't believe the 13 month rule would apply to any VSN timeshare for a home resort reservation. There is nothing in the official documents that mentions 13 months. I can't see how they suddenly change that and put single week owners at a disadvantage.

From WKV Owner Docs:
_Home Resort Reservation Period means the four (4)-month period beginning twelve (12) months and ending eight (8) months prior to the Check-in Day of the Vacation Period. The Home Resort Reservation Period is comprised of the Home Resort Fixed Priority Period (12-10 months) and the Home Resort Float Period._


----------



## MICROZE

steve1000 said:


> I have a question regarding the 13 month window for post-combination reservations.  If I own a resale Marriott week and I also own a resale Westin week both in the same season for which I would like to book consecutive back to back reservations will I be able to do so under the Marriott 13 month window?  Would the result be different if both weeks were developer purchased? Or in order to use the 13 month window must both weeks be Marriott timeshares? I know if they were both Marriott timeshares the 13 month window would clearly be available. If they are both developer purchased I don't think that we know for sure how this would work but I suspect once there is guidance it would ultimately be permissible.  What if only the Westin timeshare was developer purchased would that be sufficient to utilize the 13 month window? Not sure it would affect the above analysis but I believe I will be Presidential or Chairman's level once *the combination is effected*. This might all be speculation but I would appreciate your thoughts.


Unsure what you mean by "*Combination"*.
I was under the impression that Marriott would combine our Westin + Marriott ownerships to create a Unified-Status.
After multiple presentations [both Marriott + Vistana] I have come to realize that there will be no Unified-Status.

We will continue to have 2 x Distinct Ownerships and 2 x Distinct Statuses.
The integration will be *1-Way [VSN --> Marriott]* and result in the following:

Our Marriott-Ownership will remain unchanged. No Level-Change.
Each of our VSN-Eligible [Direct/Retro'd] weeks will be assigned a DCP-Equivalent.
If we choose to Enroll our Account, the sum of our Eligible weeks will be used to decide our status.
E.g. 6-Enrolled-WKV x 2BR-EY-PLAT+ weeks currently equate to 888600-SO [148.1K-SO x 6] or 5*-Elite.
5*-Elite will designate the Primary-Account-Owner as Bonvoy-Titanium as long as we maintain 5*-Elite Status.
Our VSN-Ownership will receive a standing in the Marriott-System based on what we own.
5*-Elite will designate the Account as Marriott equivalent of Chairmans-Club [+15K-DCP].
BTW: There is a possibility that Marriot will create a new level above Chairmans-Club. Possibly 20K-25K/DCP.


We would have to pay a new SINGLE Marriott Club-Dues which would eliminate all current A-La-Carte VSN-Fees.
Each year these 6 x WKV-Weeks [888600-SO] would accrue 24300-DCP [4050-DCP/Week x 6].
Each year we could elect to use our VSN-Ownership as we do today with no change [including depositing and exchanging via Interval].
Additionally: We could choose to elect DCP-Points and exchange internally within the Marriott DCP-System.


----------



## DavidnRobin

VacationForever said:


> In Marriott system, you don't need developer-purchased week to be able to book at 13 months out for 2 consecutive or concurrent weeks. My guess would be MVC would allow 13 months booking for Westin weeks as well. Who knows!



Regardless of the CCRs and VSN Docs - they can change those with a vote that they control…

They can only use those VOIs (or Points) held by Marriott DC inventory. 
They can’t hold own more than is due to them legally by their ownership.

E.G. If WKORV/N Owners hold 80% of weeks/points, it would be illegal for them to use more than 20% for whatever usage they want (Rental, DCP) whether at 13 months or 12 months or 8 months or 60/90 days (?) - at this point all unused inventory is theirs.

Nothing stopping them from taken the prime weeks though as there is zero transparency.

Or by making reservations next to impossible…

Or scamming more Owners to give up their deeds.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MICROZE

steve1000 said:


> I have a question regarding the 13 month window for post-combination reservations.  If I own a resale Marriott week and I also own a resale Westin week both in the same season for which I would like to book consecutive back to back reservations will I be able to do so under the Marriott 13 month window?  Would the result be different if both weeks were developer purchased? Or in order to use the 13 month window must both weeks be Marriott timeshares? *I know if they were both Marriott timeshares the 13 month window would clearly be available*. If they are both developer purchased I don't think that we know for sure how this would work but I suspect once there is guidance it would ultimately be permissible.  What if only the Westin timeshare was developer purchased would that be sufficient to utilize the 13 month window?


In response to *this*, here is what we can/cannot do.
*Deeded-Weeks*
We own 3 x 2BR-LO Units at 3 x Different-Resorts [MKO, MCV, MRD].
1 was a resale [Pre-2010] that was qualified/enrolled and 2 are Direct-Purchases [Bundle/Hybrid-Packages].
Based on the rules explained to me, it is not possible for us to book using my weeks at 13-Months.
We were informed that we would need to own at least 2+ Contracts at the same resort [e.g. 2 x MKO] in order to book at 13-Months.
This has not affected us so far as we have always Locked-Off and deposited our weeks with II.

*Destination-Points*
All of our exchanges done internally within MVCI have been to Ritz Carltons using Destination-Points which is possible at 13-Months.


----------



## steve1000

Thank you Microze I was not aware of that requirement. When I have used the Marriott 13 month window I've always used multiple weeks at the same resort as well as one week at a different resort. However, I didn't realize that having at least 2 contracts at the same resort was critical.


----------



## Venter

You don't need two contracts at the same resort.  If you have a contract at two different resorts the seasons just have to overlap in order to make a consecutive reservation.


----------



## steve1000

Venter said:


> You don't need two contracts at the same resort.  If you have a contract at two different resorts the seasons just have to overlap in order to make aa consecutive reservation.



Thank you for the clarification - that's what I had always thought was the case.


----------



## MICROZE

Venter said:


> You don't need two contracts at the same resort.  If you have a contract at two different resorts the seasons just have to overlap in order to make a consecutive reservation.


Thank you for that.
Nice to learn something new.
Do we still need to call to get this done or can it be done online?


----------



## DanCali

MICROZE said:


> Thank you for that.
> Nice to learn something new.
> Do we still need to call to get this done or can it be done online?



You cannot book online 13 months out. Only via phone agent. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Red elephant

Just attended a sales presentation in Marco Island received $250. No fee to enroll in the new program if weeks/points/options are qualified. Apparently Marriott did a survey with Vistana owners and came to the conclusion that charging a fee would alienate the very owners whom they anticipate would purchase more in the future.
 No resales can participate whether voluntary or mandatory .
I also got a print out of all my weeks and the conversion to DC point and it’s accurate with what has been already presented on this thread. 
This soft roll out is to get sales trained and ready for this summer.


----------



## kozykritter

Red elephant said:


> Just attended a sales presentation in Marco Island received $250. No fee to enroll in the new program if weeks/points/options are qualified. Apparently Marriott did a survey with Vistana owners and came to the conclusion that charging a fee would alienate the very owners whom they anticipate would purchase more in the future.
> No resales can participate whether voluntary or mandatory .
> I also got a print out of all my weeks and the conversion to DC point and it’s accurate with what has been already presented on this thread.
> This soft roll out is to get sales trained and ready for this summer.


Awesome, thanks for sharing! Did they give you a rollout date?


----------



## Red elephant

kozykritter said:


> Awesome, thanks for sharing! Did they give you a rollout date?


No sometime in the summer. I think it depends on how the sales team is doing with the new system. Everything is going to be merged into one system. They told me when I sign on I will see all my products. I thought it was going to remain separate.


----------



## kozykritter

Red elephant said:


> No sometime in the summer. I think it depends on how the sales team is doing with the new system. Everything is going to be merged into one system. They told me when I sign on I will see all my products. I thought it was going to remain separate.


I was getting the sense from recent reports on here that they would combine everything into one online system but you would still be able to perform VSN and MVC functions within separate subsystems, depending upon which you owned. I think this is why we've seen all those migration reservations as they have to bring all Vistana properties onto the MVC booking platform


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> You cannot book online 13 months out. Only via phone agent.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Do you mean for weeks or DPs?

I can book at 13 months out using DPs. In fact, I just booked at 13 months today for a 12 day trip so I could get the 7 days I want without having to stress on Tuesday, which I believe is release date for the actual days I want, which is 7 days out of the 12 days. So next week, I can drop the days I do not want. I think I could do this because I had enough DPs in my account for the 12 days.


----------



## TravelTime

Red elephant said:


> Just attended a sales presentation in Marco Island received $250. No fee to enroll in the new program if weeks/points/options are qualified. Apparently Marriott did a survey with Vistana owners and came to the conclusion that charging a fee would alienate the very owners whom they anticipate would purchase more in the future.
> No resales can participate whether voluntary or mandatory .
> I also got a print out of all my weeks and the conversion to DC point and it’s accurate with what has been already presented on this thread.
> This soft roll out is to get sales trained and ready for this summer.



How was Marco Island? We are planning to go there next summer with my girls age 7 and 11 by next summer. I booked a 2BR gulf front.


----------



## dsmrp

Red elephant said:


> Just attended a sales presentation in Marco Island received $250. No fee to enroll in the new program if weeks/points/options are qualified. Apparently Marriott did a survey with Vistana owners and came to the conclusion that charging a fee would alienate the very owners whom they anticipate would purchase more in the future.
> No resales can participate whether voluntary or mandatory .
> I also got a print out of all my weeks and the conversion to DC point and it’s accurate with what has been already presented on this thread.
> This soft roll out is to get sales trained and ready for this summer.



So Marriott sales now has access to all the Vistana owner info and DC conversion charts? At the onset it was reported that Marriott sales didn't know anything about Vistana. So both groups are being cross trained.  Hope they are consistent in the details.  Marriott corp is likely not going to make significant changes, since training is underway.


----------



## Red elephant

TravelTime said:


> How was Marco Island? We are planning to go there next summer with my girls age 7 and 11 by next summer. I booked a 2BR gulf front.


It is great!!  We stayed at the JW Marriott down the street and going to Crystal Shores tomorrow.


----------



## Red elephant

dsmrp said:


> So Marriott sales now has access to all the Vistana owner info and DC conversion charts? At the onset it was reported that Marriott sales didn't know anything about Vistana. So both groups are being cross trained.  Hope they are consistent in the details.  Marriott corp is likely not going to make significant changes, since training is underway.


Yes they printed out my portfolio and had everything in it. They did not have this access last year.  They are all being cross trained and they said the system it’s pretty complicated.


----------



## Red elephant

TravelTime said:


> Do you mean for weeks or DPs?
> 
> I can book at 13 months out using DPs. In fact, I just booked at 13 months today for a 12 day trip so I could get the 7 days I want without having to stress on Tuesday, which I believe is release date for the actual days I want, which is 7 days out of the 12 days. So next week, I can drop the days I do not want. I think I could do this because I had enough DPs in my account for the 12 days.


This I don’t understand about Tuesday being a release date.


----------



## TravelTime

Red elephant said:


> It is great!!  We stayed at the JW Marriott down the street and going to Crystal Shores tomorrow.



Let me know how Crystal Shores is. What kind of room did you get? What are some of the activities you have enjoyed so far? I have Crystal Shores MVC thread if you want to post there after your trip.


----------



## TravelTime

Red elephant said:


> This I don’t understand about Tuesday being a release date.



Every Tuesday MVC releases the 13 month inventory and it releases 12 month inventory on Fridays.


----------



## Red elephant

kozykritter said:


> I was getting the sense from recent reports on here that they would combine everything into one online system but you would still be able to perform VSN and MVC functions within separate subsystems, depending upon which you owned. I think this is why we've seen all those migration reservations as they have to bring all Vistana properties onto the MVC booking platform


Unless I misunderstood it sounds like  there is one system where you can do all these things.


----------



## TravelTime

They have to put all inventory into MVC because they are selling DPs to new members based on being able to book at all the properties. There are posters and sales materials all over the MVC resorts advertising the new integrated program of over 90 resorts.

New members will have no clue what Vistana is or that it even exists. It is possible they may keep Vistana for Vistana owners if that is required legally.


----------



## kozykritter

Red elephant said:


> Unless I misunderstood it sounds like  there is one system where you can do all these things.


If they are including all Vistana owners (including those with unqualified ownership) in one IT system with Marriott owners, then there will have to be sub modules to administer the VSN weeks/options program and a separate one to administer the MVC weeks/points program with cross-linking to allow certain owners to cross book between the programs.


----------



## DanCali

Red elephant said:


> This I don’t understand about Tuesday being a release date.





TravelTime said:


> Every Tuesday MVC releases the 13 month inventory and it releases 12 month inventory on Fridays.



And if that's not complicated enough then you should know Tuesday and Friday is DC points inventory for 13 and 12 months reservations respectively. 

Weeks inventory is released 13 and 12 months before the first allowed checkin day for the week you are interested in. For some it might be 12 and 13 months out before a Friday checkin date and for some it might be 12 and 13 months out before a Thursday checkin date.

Welcome to MVC!


----------



## CPNY

Red elephant said:


> Yes they printed out my portfolio and had everything in it. They did not have this access last year.  They are all being cross trained and they said the system it’s pretty complicated.


If it’s complicated for them imagine how it’s going to be for owners…. This plays to their benefit. Make it complicated so they can confuse owners even more then trick them into buying more in the future.


----------



## dsmrp

CPNY said:


> If it’s complicated for them imagine how it’s going to be for owners…. This plays to their benefit. Make it complicated so they can confuse owners even more then trick them into buying more in the future.


+1
Don't forget poor customer support who has or should understand the rules too. I doubt Marriott is giving them more training than sales. Training costs $.


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> And if that's not complicated enough then you should know Tuesday and Friday is DC points inventory for 13 and 12 months reservations respectively.
> 
> Weeks inventory is released 13 and 12 months before the first allowed checkin day for the week you are interested in. For some it might be 12 and 13 months out before a Friday checkin date and for some it might be 12 and 13 months out before a Thursday checkin date.
> 
> Welcome to MVC!



I recently noticed that MVC has a calculator in the portal and you can put in the date you want to travel and it tells you when you can book. I found that helpful. I suspect many people do not know the release dates. It took me awhile to finally understand how it works. Now I find it easy and not different than Vistana’s 12 and 8 month booking windows. I like to plan well already of 8 months so 13 and 12 is preferable to me.


----------



## Bill R

Red elephant said:


> Just attended a sales presentation in Marco Island received $250. No fee to enroll in the new program if weeks/points/options are qualified. Apparently Marriott did a survey with Vistana owners and came to the conclusion that charging a fee would alienate the very owners whom they anticipate would purchase more in the future.
> No resales can participate whether voluntary or mandatory .
> I also got a print out of all my weeks and the conversion to DC point and it’s accurate with what has been already presented on this thread.
> This soft roll out is to get sales trained and ready for this summer.



We didn't get any kind of survey about this...


----------



## CPNY

Bill R said:


> We didn't get any kind of survey about this...


It’s probably a lie that they are telling Marriott owners so the MVC owner won’t get PO’d because they had to pay to enroll when the DC program was rolled out.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> I recently noticed that MVC has a calculator in the portal and you can put in the date you want to travel and it tells you when you can book. I found that helpful. I suspect many people do not know the release dates. It took me awhile to finally understand how it works. Now I find it easy and not different than Vistana’s 12 and 8 month booking windows. I like to plan well already of 8 months so 13 and 12 is preferable to me.



That calculator has been there for as long as I've owned and it's there because you need it. In Vistana there is no inventory release calendar because you don't need one. Just count 8 or 12 months back from the checkin date...

With Marriott I've owned pre-2010 and I have a pretty good idea how weeks inventory works, but I always check with the calculator just in case. And that fact the inventory for Friday, Saturday and Sunday is all released on the same day at resorts with F/Sa/Su checkins causes a huge rush at 9am ET at 13 months out (12 months out you can also try online and hope the website doesn't crash).

On top of that, different resorts can have different checkin dates so if you happen own at multiple resorts the inventory may be released using a different formula at each one. For example, you could own 3 weeks - Newport Coast, Crystal Shores, Streamside (Birch) and say you want to reserve July 8, 2023. They all have different inventory release dates for that inventory - could be July 6, July 7, or July 8 (or June 6-8 at thirteen months out).

Is that really "no different than Vistana"? Maybe only the website crashes are no different 


NCV:


Crystal Shores


Streamside Birch


----------



## Red elephant

DanCali said:


> And if that's not complicated enough then you should know Tuesday and Friday is DC points inventory for 13 and 12 months reservations respectively.
> 
> Weeks inventory is released 13 and 12 months before the first allowed checkin day for the week you are interested in. For some it might be 12 and 13 months out before a Friday checkin date and for some it might be 12 and 13 months out before a Thursday checkin date.
> 
> Welcome to MVC!


OMG!! And this is the best way to get what you want?


----------



## Red elephant

Bill R said:


> We didn't get any kind of survey about this...


I never got surveyed as well and I brought that up. I guess it was a focus group or something .


----------



## Red elephant

DanCali said:


> That calculator has been there for as long as I've owned and it's there because you need it. In Vistana there is no inventory release calendar because you don't need one. Just count 8 or 12 months back from the checkin date...
> 
> With Marriott I've owned pre-2010 and I have a pretty good idea how weeks inventory works, but I always check with the calculator just in case. And that fact the inventory for Friday, Saturday and Sunday is all released on the same day at resorts with F/Sa/Su checkins causes a huge rush at 9am ET at 13 months out (12 months out you can also try online and hope the website doesn't crash).
> 
> On top of that, different resorts can have different checkin dates so if you happen own at multiple resorts the inventory may be released using a different formula at each one. For example, you could own 3 weeks - Newport Coast, Crystal Shores, Streamside (Birch) and say you want to reserve July 8, 2023. They all have different inventory release dates for that inventory - could be July 6, July 7, or July 8 (or June 6-8 at thirteen months out).
> 
> Is that really "no different than Vistana"? Maybe only the website crashes are no different
> 
> 
> NCV:
> View attachment 53511Crystal Shores
> View attachment 53512Streamside Birch
> View attachment 53510


I hope this also gets streamlined. They told me during this soft launch they will fix any issues that come up. Harborside was one of them. They did not realize it would be a problem converting that resort to DP till the soft launch!! I was like you had 2 years to pick up on that. Marriott sales is not ready to sell DP points to Vistana owners is what I got out of that presentation.


----------



## daviator

Red elephant said:


> I never got surveyed as well and I brought that up. I guess it was a focus group or something .



We have a pretty good cross-section of Vistana ownership here.  I'd like to hear from a single owner that was surveyed about this.  I'm guessing this is more lies; I was not surveyed, and none of the other Vistana owners I know personally were surveyed or contacted.  Of course, there are many thousands of owners so it's certainly possible it happened, but I think we'd have heard about it here.


----------



## MICROZE

daviator said:


> We have a pretty good cross-section of Vistana ownership here.  I'd like to hear from a single owner that was surveyed about this.  I'm guessing this is more lies; I was not surveyed, and none of the other Vistana owners I know personally were surveyed or contacted.  Of course, there are many thousands of owners so it's certainly possible it happened, but I think we'd have heard about it here.


+1 for another VSN owner that was not surveyed.
I am pretty sure 99.99% that no such survey exists.
If a survey is done, the data needs to be analyzed [standardized, studied] before any decisions can be made to act on the same.

This is just another line the salesperson may have made along with "No Enrollment Fee" which doesn't align with what other salespersons have siad.
I give as much credence to this salesperson as I do the ones I met.
I am now in wait-and-see mode and don't plan to act on any info coming from salespersons or hear-say during the Soft-Launch.


----------



## Red elephant

When I told them I had enough weeks and did not need anymore points. They told me the best way to maximize as a chairman is to use DPs for explorer package .
Tours
Cruises
Hotels . They no longer mention conversion to bonvoy points as it no longer gives value. But say that booking hotels with DPs is better value. Does any Marriot owners here know if this is true?


----------



## rickandcindy23

remowidget said:


> If you don't want to deal with clueless people, book online. I mostly have booked online and prefer it as I can see exactly what is available and what I'm booking.


I cannot book all of my weeks online.  I own too many SBP to book them online.  The Vistana system cannot search through that many weeks.  Believe me, their system is the worst.  That being said, I own enough prime summer weeks to book well over a year out, but the system doesn't allow for that either.  I always, always have to call.  I also have to call to separate the two one bedrooms.  I am thinking of booking all one bedrooms and no lockoffs in the future for SBP only.


----------



## VacationForever

Red elephant said:


> When I told them I had enough weeks and did not need anymore points. They told me the best way to maximize as a chairman is to use DPs for explorer package .
> Tours
> Cruises
> Hotels . They no longer mention conversion to bonvoy points as it no longer gives value. But say that booking hotels with DPs is better value. Does any Marriot owners here know if this is true?



Very poor value when using DC points to book Collette Tours, Cruises and on the small list of Marriott hotels that accept them.


----------



## DanCali

Red elephant said:


> When I told them I had enough weeks and did not need anymore points. They told me the best way to maximize as a chairman is to use DPs for explorer package .
> Tours Cruises Hotels . They no longer mention conversion to bonvoy points as it no longer gives value. But say that booking hotels with DPs is better value. Does any Marriot owners here know if this is true?



Salespeople try to convince you that it's a good use of points by doing fuzzy math.

They start with telling you that you have a WKV Plat 2BR week with $1700 MF that converts to 4050 points so you are paying 42c per points. Then if you can get 50c per point for cruises (number made up) they will say you got a good deal because it's a value of $2025 (50c * 4050 points).

While that can sound compelling, the issue with that type of math is that the MFs are mostly irrelevant because that's already paid. Now, assuming you do not use the week, the question is what you do with the week as an alternative to using it.

(1) You can rent the actual week for $4200 (use the cash for cruises if you want). Actual rental value can be higher or lower, but I'd consider this a 5-year reliable average.
(2) You can elect 4050 points and rent the points at 69c which is a value of $2800 (use the cash for cruises if you want).
(3) Get a cruise value of $2025
(4) Elect 216,000 Bonvoy points - which at a 0.8c value are worth ~$1700

So do you want a value of $1700, $2025, $2800, or $4200+?

That is why the prevailing consensus here is that Bonvoy points are a bad deal. Cruises and hotel conversions are a similar story. And DC points conversion will likely be, for many VSN resorts, another suboptimal way to make use of the timeshare you own.

Obviously, this math can be done for any resort and, when you do it this way, I suspect cruises and hotels come out around as bad as Bonvoy points...


----------



## jabberwocky

daviator said:


> We have a pretty good cross-section of Vistana ownership here.  I'd like to hear from a single owner that was surveyed about this.  I'm guessing this is more lies; I was not surveyed, and none of the other Vistana owners I know personally were surveyed or contacted.  Of course, there are many thousands of owners so it's certainly possible it happened, but I think we'd have heard about it here.


I think the average TUG Vistana owner would not be a good candidate for a focus group.  TUG members are an extremely small subset of Vistana owners.  Most of us have bought into the concept of buying resale. MVC is really interested in those who have and continue to spend big on retail purchases.

Surveys are designed to be broad, while focus groups are typically selected to engage with your target market. I’d be shocked if any of us were invited.


----------



## remowidget

daviator said:


> We have a pretty good cross-section of Vistana ownership here.  I'd like to hear from a single owner that was surveyed about this.  I'm guessing this is more lies; I was not surveyed, and none of the other Vistana owners I know personally were surveyed or contacted.  Of course, there are many thousands of owners so it's certainly possible it happened, but I think we'd have heard about it here.


It certainly could be a lie, it is from sales. It could be one question on an optional survey somewhere along the way. I doubt I would remember a specific question like this a year or two ago, heck even last week at this point. Lol. It's very unlikely they asked me because I don't like doing surveys. 

Either way, does it matter. It seems pretty common sense to me that Vistana owners wouldn't be happy about a fee to enroll. I also think they probably found that out when they rolled out Destination Points in 2010. It's my understanding that some people still have not enrolled even though they offered free options to enroll over the years. If I was Marriott,  I would quietly enroll all of the remaining Marriott weeks owners as well.


----------



## sail27bill

If Marriott doesn't charge  a fee to "enrolled" Vistana owners that would be a win win for both Marriott and the owner.  I also think that it is smart marketing.  Unless you own a premium Vistana resort, the points allocation will be much, much less than what it costs to stay in the Marriott premium resorts.  Thus, Marriott can say hey "buy some more points and you don't have to worry about exchanging thru II, look at all these additional choices and now you will be truly a part of the Marriott family (and not just a step-child)." Hence a open stream of new customers.  However they leave out the true benefit--renting points to achieve the same thing without additional upfront money.  This is why I bought the minimum points during Covid and have used them to my advantage.  Why buy additional when you can rent inexpensively?

According to this thread my SVV Platinum will get around 2700 points.  Not nearly enough to book what I usually get from II. I have used II to stay in Marriott Aruba, HHI and Oceanwatch resorts in platinum season, Oceana Palms in gold,  and a lot of other very nice Marriott resorts.  And I will continue to use II to trade up.  The only benefit I can see to enroll is if I needed a specific date for a special occasion and I want to set it up easily way in advance.  

I also have a harborside week-- true non-lockoff 2 bedroom which rents extremely well.  I can only see opting for DCPs if they are assigned a high value.  Otherwise-nope! 

Lastly, I am disappointed with the increase in bonvoy points for hotel stays.  In the past, I traded my timeshare a few times and really benefited from it.  Now Marriott is really raking in the dough with redemption.  I guess it was nice while it lasted.  

I truly like Marriott resorts and for those Vistana owners (myself included) that are looking for increased destinations, this is definitely a positive benefit.  I just hope that the benefit outweighs the costs in the long run.


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> I think the average TUG Vistana owner would not be a good candidate for a focus group.  TUG members are an extremely small subset of Vistana owners.  Most of us have bought into the concept of buying resale. MVC is really interested in those who have and continue to spend big on retail purchases.
> 
> Surveys are designed to be broad, while focus groups are typically selected to engage with your target market. I’d be shocked if any of us were invited.



Makes sense. Does anyone know what percentage of Vistana owners might be TUG owners? Like you, I suspect it’s a small subset.


----------



## Mauiwmn

TravelTime said:


> Makes sense. Does anyone know what percentage of Vistana owners might be TUG owners? Like you, I suspect it’s a small subset.



I think our TUG numbers are very a small percentage when you take into account total Marriott and Vistana owners.  A few years ago I recall being told there were ~100k Vistana owners and ~200k Marriott owners.   My guess is that TUG Vistana owners are 5-10% of all owners.     Anyone else have a guess?


----------



## TravelTime

Mauiwmn said:


> I think our TUG numbers are very a small percentage when you take into account total Marriott and Vistana owners.  A few years ago I recall being told there were ~100k Vistana owners and ~200k Marriott owners.   My guess is that TUG Vistana owners are 5-10% of all owners.     Anyone else have a guess?



It is unbelievable that so many people would pay retail prices for MVC. I assume they start with low packages of DP for about $20K-$30K. Then they add more after that. I just googled this and there are 700,000 owners and members of MVC.



			https://www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/downloads/presskits/mvwc-Facts.pdf


----------



## jabberwocky

Well, with 111,000 registered TUG users overall, it’s going to be incredibly small proportion.  I’m going to guess that we have no more than 500 active Vistana owners here (I’m sure we have many lurkers). It’s probably less than 0.5% of all Vistana owners. 

I’m not sure how it breaks down with Vistana owners vs MVC vs Hyatt and Welk, but last I saw they have over 700k owners (not VOIs).


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> Well, with 111,000 registered TUG users overall, it’s going to be incredibly small proportion.  I’m going to guess that we have no more than 500 active Vistana owners here (I’m sure we have many lurkers). It’s probably less than 0.5% of all Vistana owners.
> 
> I’m not sure how it breaks down with Vistana owners vs MVC vs Hyatt and Welk, but last I saw they have over 700k owners (not VOIs).



I agree it has to be small since 111,000 registered TUG users represents many timeshare companies. We would have to see what percentage are MVC owners and Vistana owners.


----------



## Mauiwmn

TravelTime said:


> It is unbelievable that so many people would pay retail prices for MVC. I assume they start with low packages of DP for about $20K-$30K. Then they add more after that. I just googled this and there are 700,000 owners and members of MVC.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/downloads/presskits/mvwc-Facts.pdf



Great info.  That 700,000 includes all lines-Marriott, Hyatt, Vistana and everything else they have purchased.   The ~200k+ figure I was referencing was probably 5+ years ago for original Marriott alone.   Marriott members were roughly 2x Vistana at that time.


----------



## dioxide45

Mauiwmn said:


> I think our TUG numbers are very a small percentage when you take into account total Marriott and Vistana owners.  A few years ago I recall being told there were ~100k Vistana owners and ~200k Marriott owners.   My guess is that TUG Vistana owners are 5-10% of all owners.     Anyone else have a guess?


Less than 1%. There are about 10 million timeshare owners in the USA and only a little more than 100,000 registered members on the TUG BBS. THough that 100,000 is made up of many people that simply aren't active, moved on, sold their timeshare, passed away or they are bots.


----------



## Mowogo

dioxide45 said:


> Less than 1%. There are about 10 million timeshare owners in the USA and only a little more than 100,000 registered members on the TUG BBS. THough that 100,000 is made up of many people that simply aren't active, moved on, sold their timeshare, passed away or they are bots.


The reality is that if most timeshare owners have an understanding like TUG members, the model wouldn’t work.  Timeshare complexity is what allows the system to function and provides the opportunities for outsize value.  And our resale mantra would mean nothing if retail timeshares were never bought.


----------



## MICROZE

Mowogo said:


> The reality is that if most timeshare owners have an understanding like TUG members, the model wouldn’t work.  Timeshare complexity is what allows the system to function and provides the opportunities for outsize value.  And our resale mantra would mean nothing if retail timeshares were never bought.


Good point.

I assume that every TS we purchase RESALE has been initially purchased RETAIL and would not pass transfer unless all liabilities were met which means that the Resort-Companies are made whole.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> And if that's not complicated enough then you should know Tuesday and Friday is DC points inventory for 13 and 12 months reservations respectively.
> 
> Weeks inventory is released 13 and 12 months before the first allowed checkin day for the week you are interested in. For some it might be 12 and 13 months out before a Friday checkin date and for some it might be 12 and 13 months out before a Thursday checkin date.
> 
> Welcome to MVC!





TravelTime said:


> I recently noticed that MVC has a calculator in the portal and you can put in the date you want to travel and it tells you when you can book. I found that helpful. I suspect many people do not know the release dates. It took me awhile to finally understand how it works. Now I find it easy and not different than Vistana’s 12 and 8 month booking windows. I like to plan well already of 8 months so 13 and 12 is preferable to me.





DanCali said:


> That calculator has been there for as long as I've owned and it's there because you need it. In Vistana there is no inventory release calendar because you don't need one. Just count 8 or 12 months back from the checkin date...
> 
> With Marriott I've owned pre-2010 and I have a pretty good idea how weeks inventory works, but I always check with the calculator just in case. And that fact the inventory for Friday, Saturday and Sunday is all released on the same day at resorts with F/Sa/Su checkins causes a huge rush at 9am ET at 13 months out (12 months out you can also try online and hope the website doesn't crash).
> 
> On top of that, different resorts can have different checkin dates so if you happen own at multiple resorts the inventory may be released using a different formula at each one. For example, you could own 3 weeks - Newport Coast, Crystal Shores, Streamside (Birch) and say you want to reserve July 8, 2023. They all have different inventory release dates for that inventory - could be July 6, July 7, or July 8 (or June 6-8 at thirteen months out).
> 
> Is that really "no different than Vistana"? Maybe only the website crashes are no different
> 
> 
> NCV:
> View attachment 53511Crystal Shores
> View attachment 53512Streamside Birch
> View attachment 53510



It really isn't all that difficult to understand the release dates for booking Marriott Weeks or Points. The owners' website has a 'Helpful Tools' section where you follow the prompts to select whether you're using Weeks or Points, your desired resort and check-in date (and if using Points, the number of nights of your desired stay,) after which the inventory release date field is populated. I get why it was confusing having to know the seasonal calendar of the resort(s), the release day of the week and whether a holiday might push the date a day ahead or behind because that's what we needed to know back before these tools were made available, but with these website tools it's not necessary to know any of the machinations now. It's really been made very simple.

As for the reservation rules using owned Weeks:

- when booking single Weeks; the Release Date is 12 months prior to the first check-in day of the desired interval, the inventory is released immediately at 9AM Eastern on that date, and you can either book online or through a call to Owner Services.

- when booking multiple Weeks that fall consecutively/concurrently on the calendar (at either the same resort or different resorts); you must be using units or lock-off components from two or more owned Weeks, the Release Date is 13 months prior to the first check-in day of the first desired interval, the inventory is released immediately at 9:00AM Eastern on that date, and you must call Owner Services because the online system does not support immediate confirmations of multiple intervals. (There is an online request form for 13-mos Weeks inventory but those requests aren't handled until the phone queue is empty, so don't rely on it for anything but the least-demand inventory.)

*Worth noting is that Marriott is allowed to release for 13-mos bookings only "up to 50%" of the Weeks intervals, then at 12-mos all intervals become available. (Also worth noting is that there is language in the governing docs that prevents Marriott from using the 13-mos window to book its own intervals, although I'm not sure if that language is in every resorts' gov docs. It's definitely in those for one of my resorts.)

And for DC Points:

- the Reservation Windows are dependent on ownership status levels and the number of nights of the desired intervals. (Special rules may come into play if you're using restricted Holding Account points and/or booking something in the Luxury/Ritz-Carlton categories.) Again, figuring it out is not as difficult as it might appear, and it's made clear in this 'Benefits At A Glance' chart. Inventory is 'officially' released at 9AM Eastern but in practice it's actually released shortly after midnight on the release day, and, all Points reservations can be processed online.

*Worth noting is that a similar "up to 50%" restriction for 13-mos Points inventory is stated in the docs.

********************
More and more reading this thread I'm convinced that the only real integration that's going to happen is that certain Vistana Weeks/Points will be eligible to be elected on an annual basis for Marriott Destination Club Points. If the same rules as what are in place with Marriott enrolled Weeks apply, then enrolling a Vistana product should have no bearing on the Reservation Rules and Windows currently being used by Vistana owners. That means that if you enroll and don't elect DC Points in a given year, the same rules/windows that you use now will be what you use then. If you enroll and elect DC Points in a given year, then you will use the rules/windows that apply to DC Points. That's what I expect will happen but of course, it's anybody's guess right now.


----------



## Captron

dioxide45 said:


> It is called mandatory for a reason. Doing as this suggests would mean it is voluntary. For mandatory Vistana properties, membership in VSN is written into the governing condominium CC&R documents. It isn't something that the owner can opt out of nor opt out of passing on. You hold a deed bound by the CC&R, you have mandatory membership in VSN. The only way to change this is to get a vote from the BOD willing to get a vote from owners. Likely requires a supermajority to pass.



Are people confusing that it is "mandatory" for the owners to have their units in VSN and it is mandatory for the developer to continue the VSN program? I think the former is accurate but not the latter. The operator has the option to change or discontinue the program at their discretion (on a whim). I believe they can and would do so when and if they believe the advantages (primarily financial/adding to shareholder value) are greater than the disadvantages (financial, member dissatisfaction, legal challenges, etc.)


----------



## dioxide45

Captron said:


> Are people confusing that it is "mandatory" for the owners to have their units in VSN and it is mandatory for the developer to continue the VSN program? I think the former is accurate but not the latter. The operator has the option to change or discontinue the program at their discretion (on a whim). I believe they can and would do so when and if they believe the advantages (primarily financial/adding to shareholder value) are greater than the disadvantages (financial, member dissatisfaction, legal challenges, etc.)


I don't think people are confusing mandatory. Vistana can make changes to the VSN program, but I don't think they can completely replace it with something new to be able to exclude mandatory resorts/owners. If they come up with a new program and eliminate the existing one, the new program could really be considered the club and mandatory resorts would be required to pe part of it. Thus one reason they will utilize a separate program (MVC DC) to facilitate the new program. If they had the ability to just create a new program and eliminate VSN to squeeze out mandatory somehow, they would have done it long ago.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> It really isn't all that difficult to understand the release dates for booking Marriott Weeks or Points. The owners' website has a 'Helpful Tools' section where you follow the prompts to select whether you're using Weeks or Points, your desired resort and check-in date (and if using Points, the number of nights of your desired stay,) after which the inventory release date field is populated. I get why it was confusing having to know the seasonal calendar of the resort(s), the release day of the week and whether a holiday might push the date a day ahead or behind because that's what we needed to know back before these tools were made available, but with these website tools it's not necessary to know any of the machinations now. It's really been made very simple.
> 
> As for the reservation rules using owned Weeks:
> 
> - when booking single Weeks; the Release Date is 12 months prior to the first check-in day of the desired interval, the inventory is released immediately at 9AM Eastern on that date, and you can either book online or through a call to Owner Services.
> 
> - when booking multiple Weeks that fall consecutively/concurrently on the calendar (at either the same resort or different resorts); you must be using units or lock-off components from two or more owned Weeks, the Release Date is 13 months prior to the first check-in day of the first desired interval, the inventory is released immediately at 9:00AM Eastern on that date, and you must call Owner Services because the online system does not support immediate confirmations of multiple intervals. (There is an online request form for 13-mos Weeks inventory but those requests aren't handled until the phone queue is empty, so don't rely on it for anything but the least-demand inventory.)
> 
> *Worth noting is that Marriott is allowed to release for 13-mos bookings only "up to 50%" of the Weeks intervals, then at 12-mos all intervals become available. (Also worth noting is that there is language in the governing docs that prevents Marriott from using the 13-mos window to book its own intervals, although I'm not sure if that language is in every resorts' gov docs. It's definitely in those for one of my resorts.)
> 
> And for DC Points:
> 
> - the Reservation Windows are dependent on ownership status levels and the number of nights of the desired intervals. (Special rules may come into play if you're using restricted Holding Account points and/or booking something in the Luxury/Ritz-Carlton categories.) Again, figuring it out is not as difficult as it might appear, and it's made clear in this 'Benefits At A Glance' chart. Inventory is 'officially' released at 9AM Eastern but in practice it's actually released shortly after midnight on the release day, and, all Points reservations can be processed online.
> 
> *Worth noting is that a similar "up to 50%" restriction for 13-mos Points inventory is stated in the docs.



This issue of reservation window started with discussing the complexity of the systems.  I never said it's impossible to understand the Marriott system. I also said you get used to it over time. But the point I was making is that for someone coming from the Vistana world, there are things in the MVC world that will seem very complex or overwhelming at first. The reservation/inventory system is one of them. The fact that MVC has these website tools, just strengthens the argument that their rules are too complex to figure out otherwise...

Here are the Vistana inventory release dates/rules:

*For home resort reservations - you can first book at midnight ET exactly 12 months in advance of your desired checkin date.
For Staroptions reservations - you can first book at midnight ET exactly 8 months in advance of your desired checkin date.*

There are no website tools because anyone can subtract a year from a desired checkin date. Now compare that to all the MVC rules you explained...


----------



## remowidget

DanCali said:


> This issue of reservation window started with discussing the complexity of the systems.  I never said it's impossible to understand the Marriott system. I also said you get used to it over time. But the point I was making is that for someone coming from the Vistana world, there are things in the MVC world that will seem very complex or overwhelming at first. The reservation/inventory system is one of them. The fact that MVC has these website tools, just strengthens the argument that their rules are too complex to figure out otherwise...
> 
> Here are the Vistana inventory release dates/rules:
> 
> *For home resort reservations - you can first book at midnight ET exactly 12 months in advance of your desired checkin date.
> For Staroptions reservations - you can first book at midnight ET exactly 8 months in advance of your desired checkin date.*
> 
> There are no website tools because anyone can subtract a year from a desired checkin date. Now compare that to all the MVC rules you explained...


There are plenty of people who don't understand the Vistana Program. Lol. If someone doesn't understand what they purchased, what are the odds they will understand a new add on program.


----------



## ocdb8r

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think people are confusing mandatory. Vistana can make changes to the VSN program, but I don't think they can completely replace it with something new to be able to exclude mandatory resorts/owners. If they come up with a new program and eliminate the existing one, the new program could really be considered the club and mandatory resorts would be required to be part of it. Thus one reason they will utilize a separate program (MVC DC) to facilitate the new program. If they had the ability to just create a new program and eliminate VSN to squeeze out mandatory somehow, they would have done it long ago.



If the sole restriction on the scope of changes they make is that they can't exclude mandatory resorts, I'm not sure how comforting that is (i.e. if they can completely assign the exchange values, whether you call them StarOptions or DPs, in any way they wish).  Yes, perhaps we can safely say mandatory resorts will continue to be able to participate in the "VSN program" (even if that program effectively morphs into MVC DP) without any "buy in" fee.....but except for the Hawaii resorts that receive fairly generous DP designations, what comfort is that to any other owners?  At worst, MVC is left with a small set of "mandatory" (legacy VSN) resorts that have a right to participate in MVC DP baked into their CCRs, with an even smaller subset receiving much value for such participation.


----------



## SandyPGravel

remowidget said:


> There are plenty of people who don't understand the Vistana Program. Lol. If someone doesn't understand what they purchased, what are the odds they will understand a new add on program.


I will most definitely agree with you on this point.  I inherited my TS from my mother who kept one week for herself.  This is when I discovered she had absolutely no idea how to use it.  She had bought an annual, and three EOY.  Starwood found an easy mark.  She still has the EOY, (as far as I know), and would be the first one to pony up more $$$ because someone told her she had to for the new system.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> This issue of reservation window started with discussing the complexity of the systems.  I never said it's impossible to understand the Marriott system. I also said you get used to it over time. But the point I was making is that for someone coming from the Vistana world, there are things in the MVC world that will seem very complex or overwhelming at first. The reservation/inventory system is one of them. The fact that MVC has these website tools, just strengthens the argument that their rules are too complex to figure out otherwise...
> 
> Here are the Vistana inventory release dates/rules:
> 
> *For home resort reservations - you can first book at midnight ET exactly 12 months in advance of your desired checkin date.
> For Staroptions reservations - you can first book at midnight ET exactly 8 months in advance of your desired checkin date.*
> 
> There are no website tools because anyone can subtract a year from a desired checkin date. Now compare that to all the MVC rules you explained...


My point, though, is that for someone coming over from Vistana who has enrolled Weeks or Flex Points (however the integration happens,) what is so difficult to learn? The instructions have been made very simple by the tools on the website:

"Elect your ownership for Destination Club Points. Sign in to your account. Click on "When Can I Reserve" in the "Helpful Tools" section. Select "Using Vacation Club Points" and input the desired check-in date, after which the boxes for all Release Dates will be auto-populated."

Like I said, I understand why Marriott's rules used to be more difficult than Vistana's to understand, back in the days of only Weeks in the portfolio when you had to look at seasonal calendars to determine which days of the week could be check-in days at any of the resorts, and you had to know which days of the week inventory is released and whether a holiday might push that back or forward a day, and you had to know how to string together consecutive intervals to get the best advantage of the earliest release date .... blah blah blah. But that was - and still is - only applicable to Weeks (except they've simplified all that with a Release Date tool specific to Weeks, too.) Vistana people won't be using Marriott Weeks, they'll be using Marriott Destination Club Points (if the integration happens as we assume) and with Marriott Points it's simple! Know your eligibility for the different windows based on your individual DC status and know the date you want to check in, then use the Helpful Tool! Right now, today, I'm able to use it to learn the release dates for check-ins all the way out to 5/4/25, and with it online I can surely find two free minutes night or day to check any date through then.

These tools are some of the most owner-friendly things that Marriott has ever given us, after years of us questioning why they didn't give us something to make our lives easier! Don't make your life any more difficult than it needs to be - use the tools.


----------



## TravelTime

SueDonJ said:


> Inventory is 'officially' released at 9AM Eastern but in practice it's actually released shortly after midnight on the release day, and, all Points reservations can be processed online.



I was booking with the 13 month window on Tuesday. I kept checking before 9 am Eastern and nothing was released early. Even the drop down menu did not give an option to select June 2023 for any resort. Then right at 9 am Eastern the June 2023 drop down menu appeared and all resorts were released to book starting in June. I know Tuggers have reported releases before 9 am EST, but I have never experienced that.


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> It really isn't all that difficult to understand the release dates for booking Marriott Weeks or Points. The owners' website has a 'Helpful Tools' section where you follow the prompts to select whether you're using Weeks or Points, your desired resort and check-in date (and if using Points, the number of nights of your desired stay,) after which the inventory release date field is populated. I get why it was confusing having to know the seasonal calendar of the resort(s), the release day of the week and whether a holiday might push the date a day ahead or behind because that's what we needed to know back before these tools were made available, but with these website tools it's not necessary to know any of the machinations now. It's really been made very simple.
> 
> As for the reservation rules using owned Weeks:
> 
> - when booking single Weeks; the Release Date is 12 months prior to the first check-in day of the desired interval, the inventory is released immediately at 9AM Eastern on that date, and you can either book online or through a call to Owner Services.
> 
> - when booking multiple Weeks that fall consecutively/concurrently on the calendar (at either the same resort or different resorts); you must be using units or lock-off components from two or more owned Weeks, the Release Date is 13 months prior to the first check-in day of the first desired interval, the inventory is released immediately at 9:00AM Eastern on that date, and you must call Owner Services because the online system does not support immediate confirmations of multiple intervals. (There is an online request form for 13-mos Weeks inventory but those requests aren't handled until the phone queue is empty, so don't rely on it for anything but the least-demand inventory.)
> 
> *Worth noting is that Marriott is allowed to release for 13-mos bookings only "up to 50%" of the Weeks intervals, then at 12-mos all intervals become available. (Also worth noting is that there is language in the governing docs that prevents Marriott from using the 13-mos window to book its own intervals, although I'm not sure if that language is in every resorts' gov docs. It's definitely in those for one of my resorts.)
> 
> And for DC Points:
> 
> - the Reservation Windows are dependent on ownership status levels and the number of nights of the desired intervals. (Special rules may come into play if you're using restricted Holding Account points and/or booking something in the Luxury/Ritz-Carlton categories.) Again, figuring it out is not as difficult as it might appear, and it's made clear in this 'Benefits At A Glance' chart. Inventory is 'officially' released at 9AM Eastern but in practice it's actually released shortly after midnight on the release day, and, all Points reservations can be processed online.
> 
> *Worth noting is that a similar "up to 50%" restriction for 13-mos Points inventory is stated in the docs.
> 
> ********************
> More and more reading this thread I'm convinced that the only real integration that's going to happen is that certain Vistana Weeks/Points will be eligible to be elected on an annual basis for Marriott Destination Club Points. If the same rules as what are in place with Marriott enrolled Weeks apply, then enrolling a Vistana product should have no bearing on the Reservation Rules and Windows currently being used by Vistana owners. That means that if you enroll and don't elect DC Points in a given year, the same rules/windows that you use now will be what you use then. If you enroll and elect DC Points in a given year, then you will use the rules/windows that apply to DC Points. That's what I expect will happen but of course, it's anybody's guess right now.


Before that tool was introduced, there were a bazillion questions in the Marriott forum about release dates. After, it seemed to mostly solve the problem. Marriott does have a much more convoluted inventory release system.


----------



## TravelTime

It would be easier if they did not have weekly release dates and just did exactly 13 or 12 months out like Vistana.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> It would be easier if they did not have weekly release dates and just did exactly 13 or 12 months out like Vistana.


Another problem with weekly release dates is it puts unneeded stress on the reservation and customer service systems. Everyone checking in over multiple days is all trying to call in or go online on a single day.


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> Before that tool was introduced, there were a bazillion questions in the Marriott forum about release dates. After, it seemed to mostly solve the problem. Marriott does have a much more convoluted inventory release system.





dioxide45 said:


> Another problem with weekly release dates is it puts unneeded stress on the reservation and customer service systems. Everyone checking in over multiple days is all trying to call in or go online on a single day.


I don't disagree with either of these comments but it seems to me that the system is a holdover from the days when all reservations had to be made by calling in to Owner Services which wasn't open on the weekends. Marriott resorts have various check-in days, some have Th-F-Sat-Sun-Mon, others F-Sat-Sun ...

Don't Vistana Weeks also have various check-in days? Has Vistana always had online reservation capability? If not, what would happen in the Vistana system if the exactly-12mos-ahead release date was a day when their Owner Services was closed?


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> I don't disagree with either of these comments but it seems to me that the system is a holdover from the days when all reservations had to be made by calling in to Owner Services which wasn't open on the weekends. Marriott resorts have various check-in days, some have Th-F-Sat-Sun-Mon, others F-Sat-Sun ...
> 
> Don't Vistana Weeks also have various check-in days? Has Vistana always had online reservation capability? If not, what would happen in the Vistana system if the exactly-12mos-ahead release date was a day when their Owner Services was closed?


I don't know how long Vistana has had online reservations, but is has been for as long as I have owned. They do have various checkin days (Fri, Sat Sun) for weeks ownership, but if you want to checkin on Saturday you would have called on a different day than someone who wanted to check in on Sunday of the same week. Marriott's system of releasing inventory would have those same two people trying to make their reservations at the same time.'

Different companies tend to do things a little different. Each has their own pros and cons. It would have been good if MVC could have just gone to a simpler reservation window, at least for DC point bookings. Right now everyone wanting to reserve for a checkin day for an entire week is trying to do so at the same time.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I don't know how long Vistana has had online reservations, but is has been for as long as I have owned.



I want to say somewhere around 2015


----------



## vacation dreaming

Vistana had much better hours before The acquisition also.  Evenings and weekends.


----------



## rickandcindy23

vacation dreaming said:


> Vistana had much better hours before The acquisition also.  Evenings and weekends.


Yes!  We needed to add a name last-minute for a person who rented a week that was sitting online.  We couldn't add a guest online and had to call the resort because it was a Saturday and the office was closed.  That surprised me that they cut down their hours that drastically.


----------



## DanCali

vacation dreaming said:


> Vistana had much better hours before The acquisition also.  Evenings and weekends.





rickandcindy23 said:


> Yes!  We needed to add a name last-minute for a person who rented a week that was sitting online.  We couldn't add a guest online and had to call the resort because it was a Saturday and the office was closed.  That surprised me that they cut down their hours that drastically.




The phone hours are part of the general covid "skimpflation" in the economy (no price increase, but less services/quantity for the same price).

Both Vistana and MVC shut down the phone lines when covid started and went to 5pm weekday hours. 2 years later with occupancy rates back to pre-covid they seem to have no intention of restoring the customer service hours (I think MVC or both now went to 6pm weekdays). I'm waiting to see the resulting impact on my MFs!


----------



## VacationForever

I've owned Vistana since 1996 and had RCI set up. I have never stayed at where I own. I called each year to deposit into the RCI system for exchange. Subsequently I moved to RCI Points and 76,000 points just showed up each year without calling. I left RCI in 2008 and moved to II. Because I own a fixed/float week, the week was automatcally booked for me 18 months out and I always have to call to cancel. But after cancelling, I could use the Vistana online system to reserve or deposit into II.


----------



## rickandcindy23

DanCali said:


> The phone hours are part of the general covid "skimpflation" in the economy (no price increase, but less services/quantity for the same price).
> 
> Both Vistana and MVC shut down the phone lines when covid started and went to 5pm weekday hours. 2 years later with occupancy rates back to pre-covid they seem to have no intention of restoring the customer service hours (I think MVC or both now went to 6pm weekdays). I'm waiting to see the resulting impact on my MFs!


Don't hold your breath on a reduction in fees for less service.  We have seen less housekeeping mid-week as a result of "Covid" and Marriott's takeover.  I was surprised at the lack of mid-week service at Westin in March.


----------



## DanCali

rickandcindy23 said:


> Don't hold your breath on a reduction in fees for less service.  We have seen less housekeeping mid-week as a result of "Covid" and Marriott's takeover.  I was surprised at the lack of mid-week service at Westin in March.




Yeah - I wasn't holding my breath.

But I do expect any impact from lower service to us will show up on MVC's bottom line financials, not ours.


----------



## Captron

CPNY said:


> Thanks! I just got mine and can’t wait to use it for all of my timeshare adventures! I got 3 batteries and a slew of accessories. I hope the extreme plus SD card is good enough at 256gb.


256 gb should last you for practically a whole day of video and the extreme plus is fast enough to take it. If you are on a multi-day excursion having a way to download the chip to a laptop/hard drive or upload to a cloud server would be a good thing. I don't take time to edit while I am on vacation but I can certainly set up the chip to download while I sleep and have it ready for the next day. ENJOY!


----------



## dsmrp

IIRC, at the beginning of the soft launch, Denise's source said the DC points election would apply at the earliest to the 2023 use years.  Does it seem reasonable with final/hard launch at the end of June (my guess), for an eligible Vistana owner to get enrolled and elect points by the Sept 30 (Owner,Select, Executive) or Oct 31 (Presidential, Chairman) election deadlines?  That's only 3 months for most.  My biggest assumption is a sales meeting is required for enrollment. And if it is, that means a trek to a resort, if you don't have already have a summer reservation.  I'm interested in enrolling for a specific Marriott location in 2023.

Of course, not all those who are eligible are going to enroll, and Marriott probably expects the first wave to enroll during say, 6 months - 1 year.  There are also Vistana owners who've already used their 2023 use years for home resort reservations.


----------



## Eric B

dsmrp said:


> There are also Vistana owners who've already used their 2023 use years for home resort reservations.



That would likely include any Vistana owner with a fixed week ownership as those reservations are made at the 18-month point and just need a confirmation.  My guess would be that anyone in that position with an enrolled fixed week could elect to deposit it prior to the deadline, though the devil will be in the details of how it actually works in practice.


----------



## dsmrp

Eric B said:


> That would likely include any Vistana owner with a fixed week ownership as those reservations are made at the 18-month point and just need a confirmation.  My guess would be that anyone in that position with an enrolled fixed week could elect to deposit it prior to the deadline, though the devil will be in the details of how it actually works in practice.


I actually have a fixed week, and I think it is released at 12 months if not confirmed.  But I just use it for options trading.
and it releases just in time (May) for reservations in the next calendar year.  Otherwise I guess I'd have to call CS to release it earlier than 12 months.  I have looked for an online release option, but can only confirm.


----------



## DavidnRobin

dsmrp said:


> I actually have a fixed week, and I think it is released at 12 months if not confirmed. But I just use it for options trading.
> and it releases just in time (May) for reservations in the next calendar year. Otherwise I guess I'd have to call CS to release it earlier than 12 months. I have looked for an online release option, but can only confirm.



Not sure which VSE fixed week you are referencing, but ours was released at 10 months if not released. This is pretty standard for VSE fixed weeks from my understanding.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sharr7

dsmrp said:


> I actually have a fixed week, and I think it is released at 12 months if not confirmed.  But I just use it for options trading.
> and it releases just in time (May) for reservations in the next calendar year.  Otherwise I guess I'd have to call CS to release it earlier than 12 months.  I have looked for an online release option, but can only confirm.


To release the StarOptions, just confirm your auto-reservation and then you can cancel it and the SO are returned and the auto-reservation is gone.


----------



## dioxide45

dsmrp said:


> IIRC, at the beginning of the soft launch, Denise's source said the DC points election would apply at the earliest to the 2023 use years.  Does it seem reasonable with final/hard launch at the end of June (my guess), for an eligible Vistana owner to get enrolled and elect points by the Sept 30 (Owner,Select, Executive) or Oct 31 (Presidential, Chairman) election deadlines?  That's only 3 months for most.  My biggest assumption is a sales meeting is required for enrollment. And if it is, that means a trek to a resort, if you don't have already have a summer reservation.  I'm interested in enrolling for a specific Marriott location in 2023.
> 
> Of course, not all those who are eligible are going to enroll, and Marriott probably expects the first wave to enroll during say, 6 months - 1 year.  There are also Vistana owners who've already used their 2023 use years for home resort reservations.


Denise's contact also indicated there would be no fee to enroll. So there should be no reason for a visit to a sales office.


----------



## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> Denise's contact also indicated there would be no fee to enroll. So there should be no reason for a visit to a sales office.


I suspect enrollment will be automatic. Why create a cluster of people enrolling and associated support, if it is going to be free.


----------



## SueDonJ

dsmrp said:


> IIRC, at the beginning of the soft launch, Denise's source said the DC points election would apply at the earliest to the 2023 use years.  Does it seem reasonable with final/hard launch at the end of June (my guess), for an eligible Vistana owner to get enrolled and elect points by the Sept 30 (Owner,Select, Executive) or Oct 31 (Presidential, Chairman) election deadlines?  That's only 3 months for most.  My biggest assumption is a sales meeting is required for enrollment. And if it is, that means a trek to a resort, if you don't have already have a summer reservation.  I'm interested in enrolling for a specific Marriott location in 2023.
> 
> Of course, not all those who are eligible are going to enroll, and Marriott probably expects the first wave to enroll during say, 6 months - 1 year.  There are also Vistana owners who've already used their 2023 use years for home resort reservations.


Of course there's no way of knowing what will be required but if it's similar to the Marriott process, enrolling can be done online by clicking on the "Start Enrolling Now" button that's prominently featured. I don't know, can't remember, if it's an instant approval or if you have to wait for confirmation but it doesn't take anywhere near close to even a week. Once enrolled it's an instant transaction to elect DC Points for Weeks, easy as selecting any other usage option. During the early days at inception there were a lot of phone calls to/from Owner Services, mostly because they gave us so little information or direction, but enrollment (of eligible Weeks) didn't ever require a sales presentation.


----------



## dioxide45

remowidget said:


> I suspect enrollment will be automatic. Why create a cluster of people enrolling and associated support, if it is going to be free.


I think the only reason it might not be is that enrollment will also cause a potential increase in the annual club fee. What if I don't care about the "new benefits", should I have to pay the higher fee?


----------



## SueDonJ

remowidget said:


> I suspect enrollment will be automatic. Why create a cluster of people enrolling and associated support, if it is going to be free.


But even without an enrollment fee there's still an ongoing annual Club Dues financial commitment, and Denise's contact said that the already-existing fees would be raised to equalize Vistana fees and Marriott fees. Wouldn't automatic enrollment mean automatic raised fees for the people who don't want to be enrolled in the Destination Club?

{ETA} Typical, @dioxide45 is quicker on the draw.


----------



## Red elephant

remowidget said:


> I suspect enrollment will be automatic. Why create a cluster of people enrolling and associated support, if it is going to be free.


I was told at a presentation a few days ago that enrollment is free. It will be done in the new system that they are working on.  The soft launch is to work out the kinks and training for the staff.


----------



## dsmrp

SueDonJ said:


> Of course there's no way of knowing what will be required but if it's similar to the Marriott process, enrolling can be done online by clicking on the "Start Enrolling Now" button that's prominently featured. I don't know, can't remember, if it's an instant approval or if you have to wait for confirmation but it doesn't take anywhere near close to even a week. Once enrolled it's an instant transaction to elect DC Points for Weeks, easy as selecting any other usage option. During the early days at inception there were a lot of phone calls to/from Owner Services, mostly because they gave us so little information or direction, but enrollment (of eligible Weeks) didn't ever require a sales presentation.





SueDonJ said:


> But even without an enrollment fee there's still an ongoing annual Club Dues financial commitment, and Denise's contact said that the already-existing fees would be raised to equalize Vistana fees and Marriott fees. Wouldn't automatic enrollment mean automatic raised fees for the people who don't want to be enrolled in the Destination Club?
> 
> {ETA} Typical, @dioxide45 is quicker on the draw.


It'll be great if we can enroll online.
@SueDonJ, did Marriott send out the DC point values of your units or had it available on the website before you chose to enroll?  Otherwise we don't know exactly what our weeks will be worth in DC pts during the soft launch, unless at a sales mtg.

The detail, yet to be announced, is if Marriott club fee will be charged as:
1. new club fee beginning in 2023
2. an additional fee to the paid 2022 Vistana club fee
3. the difference of  vistana club fee from new Marriott club fee

#1 would be simplest and preferred IMO by Vistana owners.


----------



## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> I think the only reason it might not be is that enrollment will also cause a potential increase in the annual club fee. What if I don't care about the "new benefits", should I have to pay the higher fee?


I wouldn't think there would be a choice. It's the new plan. I don't know the rules, it seems like the kind of thing a company could easily change. Have they changed the fees in the past?

If there is no choice, people will complain and move on. If there is a choice people will be complaining for years, maybe decades.


----------



## SueDonJ

dsmrp said:


> It'll be great if we can enroll online.
> @SueDonJ, did Marriott send out the DC point values of your units or had it available on the website before you chose to enroll?  Otherwise we don't know exactly what our weeks will be worth in DC pts during the soft launch, unless at a sales mtg.
> 
> The detail, yet to be announced, is if Marriott club fee will be charged as:
> 1. new club fee beginning in 2023
> 2. an additional fee to the paid 2022 Vistana club fee
> 3. the difference of  vistana club fee from new Marriott club fee
> 
> #1 would be simplest and preferred IMO by Vistana owners.


I'm trying to remember if it was info that's in the same place it is now or if there have been any (what would be minor) changes since then. Right now if you click on that "Start Enrolling Now" button in a Marriott account, then your eligible Weeks are listed immediately with their DC Points election values. Same thing when you select the annual usage of electing DC Points for enrolled Weeks in any given year, i.e. the DC Points election value is right there and you get an email confirmation of the election and the Points value.

In the Marriott system there's a one-time fee to enroll eligible Weeks and then a Club Dues annual fee (on a sliding scale based on DC status tiers) on top of the Weeks' annual MF's. From what I understand from DeniseM's question-and-answer contact, Vistana owners won't be charged a one-time enrollment fee but the annual club fees you pay already (on top of MF's) will be increased for enrolled Weeks/Flex ownerships bringing your annual DC-enrollment dues in line with those paid by Marriott people. I think that's what I understand anyway - your guess is as good as mine!

And again, if it's implemented similarly to how it works with Marriott Weeks and they're saying that you won't be able to start using the DC until the 2023 Use Year, then you shouldn't be charged the increased DC annual dues fees until sometime in December of January (when Marriott Club Dues are invoiced.)


----------



## jabberwocky

SueDonJ said:


> I'm trying to remember if it was info that's in the same place it is now or if there have been any (what would be minor) changes since then. Right now if you click on that "Start Enrolling Now" button in a Marriott account, then your eligible Weeks are listed immediately with their DC Points election values. Same thing when you select the annual usage of electing DC Points for enrolled Weeks in any given year, i.e. the DC Points election value is right there and you get an email confirmation of the election and the Points value.
> 
> In the Marriott system there's a one-time fee to enroll eligible Weeks and then a Club Dues annual fee (on a sliding scale based on DC status tiers) on top of the Weeks' annual MF's. From what I understand from DeniseM's question-and-answer contact, Vistana owners won't be charged a one-time enrollment fee but the annual club fees you pay already (on top of MF's) will be increased for enrolled Weeks/Flex ownerships bringing your annual DC-enrollment dues in line with those paid by Marriott people. I think that's what I understand anyway - your guess is as good as mine!
> 
> And again, if it's implemented similarly to how it works with Marriott Weeks and they're saying that you won't be able to start using the DC until the 2023 Use Year, then you shouldn't be charged the increased DC annual dues fees until sometime in December of January (when Marriott Club Dues are invoiced.)


Are Marriott club dues invoiced separately or are they included in the MF assessment like the VSN fee?


----------



## SueDonJ

remowidget said:


> I wouldn't think there would be a choice. It's the new plan. I don't know the rules, it seems like the kind of thing a company could easily change. Have they changed the fees in the past?
> 
> If there is no choice, people will complain and move on. If there is a choice people will be complaining for years, maybe decades.


I would be shocked if every enrollment-eligible Vistana interval (Weeks or Flex Points) is automatically enrolled and those owners automatically charged the higher VSN fee to cover the DC annual club dues. That isn't how it works at all in the Marriott system.


----------



## SueDonJ

jabberwocky said:


> Are Marriott club dues invoiced separately or are they included in the MF assessment like the VSN fee?


For enrolled Weeks the annual Club Dues fee is invoiced separately from the annual Weeks MF's but right around the same time of year. For purchased Trust Points the Club Dues fee is, I believe, invoiced on the same bill as the annual MF's. All of our fees are generally due sometimes during Dec-Feb with each resort having its own due date. (As I understand it with Vistana ownerships the fees must be paid in advance if you're booking ahead into the next use year, yes? That's not something that happens with Marriott, but they've recently allowed pre-payments for owners who might want to do that.)


----------



## DanCali

remowidget said:


> I suspect enrollment will be automatic. Why create a cluster of people enrolling and associated support, if it is going to be free.






dioxide45 said:


> I think the only reason it might not be is that enrollment will also cause a potential increase in the annual club fee. What if I don't care about the "new benefits", should I have to pay the higher fee?



It's not just potential fee increases. Any enrollment would absolutely require agreeing to some "Terms and Conditions" so I strongly suspect you will actively have to opt in.

Think 10 pages of legal stuff... This can be done online by checking boxes, but one would have to agree to it before enrolling.

I have a printed copy from a previously enrolled resale week - it is titled "MVC Exchange Company - Enrollment Agreement". It lists your name, the deeded week(s) you are enrolling, and the terms and conditions you are agreeing to.


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## jabberwocky

SueDonJ said:


> For enrolled Weeks the annual Club Dues fee is invoiced separately from the annual Weeks MF's but right around the same time of year. For purchased Trust Points the Club Dues fee is, I believe, invoiced on the same bill as the annual MF's. All of our fees are generally due sometimes during Dec-Feb with each resort having its own due date. (As I understand it with Vistana ownerships the fees must be paid in advance if you're booking ahead into the next use year, yes? That's not something that happens with Marriott, but they've recently allowed pre-payments for owners who might want to do that.)


Thanks for the clarification. In Vistana we only have to pay in advance if we want to deposit into II or borrow points from the following year. Home resort and SO reservations can be booked into the following year without prepaying.  

MF are all usually due around January 1st except for Flex programs which are due usually in the fall (Sept-Oct).


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## kozykritter

SueDonJ said:


> For enrolled Weeks the annual Club Dues fee is invoiced separately from the annual Weeks MF's but right around the same time of year. For purchased Trust Points the Club Dues fee is, I believe, invoiced on the same bill as the annual MF's. All of our fees are generally due sometimes during Dec-Feb with each resort having its own due date. (As I understand it with Vistana ownerships the fees must be paid in advance if you're booking ahead into the next use year, yes? That's not something that happens with Marriott, but they've recently allowed pre-payments for owners who might want to do that.)


With Vistana, you can book your next year's usage (2023) before you pay the fees (Sept/Oct for Flex, January for weeks). The only time you have to pay your fees in advance is if you want to borrow next year's usage into the current year for a specific reservation and you have to call in to do it. If you cancel that reservation, your usage reverts back out to the future year but of course they don't refund your prepaid fees


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## remowidget

SueDonJ said:


> I would be shocked if every enrollment-eligible Vistana interval (Weeks or Flex Points) is automatically enrolled and those owners automatically charged the higher VSN fee to cover the DC annual club dues. That isn't how it works at all in the Marriott system.


Marriott weeks owners are different than Vistana weeks owners. Vistana week owners  already have all the trading and banking baked in. So, the two clubs really aren't all that different. According to what I've seen, mine will be $40 more with fees eliminated. I wouldn't have been surprised if they raised it $40 and changed nothing.


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## remowidget

..


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## kozykritter

SueDonJ said:


> I would be shocked if every enrollment-eligible Vistana interval (Weeks or Flex Points) is automatically enrolled and those owners automatically charged the higher VSN fee to cover the DC annual club dues. That isn't how it works at all in the Marriott system.


The way the higher VSN fee is being presented by Denise's contact and through various posts, it is not tied to DC enrollment. Everyone whose account is currently eligible to use StarOptions will pay the increased VSN fee and in return receive all the fee waivers that have been shown in the documentation. This would exclude only unqualified resale Flex and voluntary properties as they are not StarOption/VSN eligible. Just like now, you will still pay the VSN fee even if you only use your home week or home options in a given use year and never make it to the StarOption phase at 8 months.

If this impression that's been made here holds true, then it certainly would allow them to auto enroll eligible qualified Vistana ownership into DC since it adds no commitment or additional fees. They've already mapped Vistana elite levels to MVC elite levels as part of the raising of the VSN fee, so that would eliminate some confusion once people were thrust into the MVC system.


----------



## dsmrp

SueDonJ said:


> ...
> And again, if it's implemented similarly to how it works with Marriott Weeks and they're saying that you won't be able to start using the DC until the 2023 Use Year, then you shouldn't be charged the increased DC annual dues fees until sometime in December of January (when Marriott Club Dues are invoiced.)



I think it's still unclear if enrolled Vistana owners will be able to elect DC points this year (by the usual Sept/October deadlines) for 2023 reservations  or need to wait until 2023 to elect points for use in 2024.  I'm thinking it will be the first scenario, because making Vistana owners wait longer to use DC will hurt their adoption of the program.  Of course Marriott could also change the election deadlines, but doubt they'll do so, since they're so established.


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## remowidget

..


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## Red elephant

dsmrp said:


> I think it's still unclear if enrolled Vistana owners will be able to elect DC points this year (by the usual Sept/October deadlines) for 2023 reservations  or need to wait until 2023 to elect points for use in 2024.  I'm thinking it will be the first scenario, because making Vistana owners wait longer to use DC will hurt their adoption of the program.  Of course Marriott could also change the election deadlines, but doubt they'll do so, since they're so established.


I was told this week that electing to use DC points will be sometime this summer for 2023 reservations for all qualified Vistana owners except for Harborside and another location which I forget.


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## TravelTime

I am confused with the speculation. I have not heard that enrollment will be free except for developer purchased weeks. Is there now any factual evidence that resale owners can enroll for free?


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## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> I am confused with the speculation. I have not heard that enrollment will be free except for developer purchased weeks. Is there now any factual evidence that resale owners can enroll for free?


No one has said anything about enrollment being free for resale owners.


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## CPNY

kozykritter said:


> The way the higher VSN fee is being presented by Denise's contact and through various posts, it is not tied to DC enrollment. Everyone whose account is currently eligible to use StarOptions will pay the increased VSN fee and in return receive all the fee waivers that have been shown in the documentation. This would exclude only unqualified resale Flex and voluntary properties as they are not StarOption/VSN eligible. Just like now, you will still pay the VSN fee even if you only use your home week or home options in a given use year and never make it to the StarOption phase at 8 months.
> 
> If this impression that's been made here holds true, then it certainly would allow them to auto enroll eligible qualified Vistana ownership into DC since it adds no commitment or additional fees. They've already mapped Vistana elite levels to MVC elite levels as part of the raising of the VSN fee, so that would eliminate some confusion once people were thrust into the MVC system.


Vistana has increased the VSN fee in the past. They also added a name change fee a few years ago, that used to be no charge on any reservation you held. So yes, Marriott can absolutely increase the VSN fee or structure and rename the VSN fee to mirror the Marriott Club fee. It’s quite simple really, I don’t think there will be any enrollment like there was back in 2010. Either you’re eligible or you’re not. Un-retro Mandatory resales are eligible for many things in the VSN but they are excluded from many as well. If a unit currently in the VSN is eligible to convert to bonvoy points, you will be able to elect to convert to DC points.


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## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I am confused with the speculation. I have not heard that enrollment will be free except for developer purchased weeks. Is there now any factual evidence that resale owners can enroll for free?


I think Vistana resale owners need to retro to be included. Same way they need to retro to convert to bonvoy or take advantage of other ways to use SO like for resort credits. ALL may pay the same club dues and have the Interval fees go away but to make a resale unit eligible for participation in the DC Exchange would require a direct purchase. This is my belief anyway.


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## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> No one has said anything about enrollment being free for resale owners.



The comments are getting confusing since many people do not indicate resale vs developer purchased in their comments. One person just said this:

“The way the higher VSN fee is being presented by Denise's contact and through various posts, it is not tied to DC enrollment. Everyone whose account is currently eligible to use StarOptions will pay the increased VSN fee and in return receive all the fee waivers that have been shown in the documentation. This would exclude only unqualified resale Flex and voluntary properties as they are not StarOption/VSN eligible.”

From everything I have heard so far, including at a presentation, MVC will allow developer purchased weeks and SOs to be automatically enrolled. What I have heard could be wrong of course. As of right now, I assume resale owners will either need to pay a fee or buy DPs to become part of the new program.


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## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> I think Vistana resale owners need to retro to be included. Same way they need to retro to convert to bonvoy or take advantage of other ways to use SO like for resort credits. ALL may pay the same club dues and have the Interval fees go away but to make a resale unit eligible for participation in the DC Exchange would require a direct purchase. This is my belief anyway.



I think you are right. I used to think they would allow mandatory SO week owners to just pay a fee but now I suspect they will want folks to buy some DPs to be part of the new program. That is what they require for Marriott resale owners so why would they require something different for Vistana resale owners?


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## rickandcindy23

I won't pay anything to enroll our Westin Ka'anapali units.  We bought them to use them.  Nothing is as good at Marriott as those two weeks.


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## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> The comments are getting confusing since many people do not indicate resale vs developer purchased in their comments. One person just said this:
> 
> “The way the higher VSN fee is being presented by Denise's contact and through various posts, it is not tied to DC enrollment. Everyone whose account is currently eligible to use StarOptions will pay the increased VSN fee and in return receive all the fee waivers that have been shown in the documentation. This would exclude only unqualified resale Flex and voluntary properties as they are not StarOption/VSN eligible.”
> 
> From everything I have heard so far, including at a presentation, MVC will allow developer purchased weeks and SOs to be automatically enrolled. What I have heard could be wrong of course. As of right now, I assume resale owners will either need to pay a fee or buy DPs to become part of the new program.


A resale Vistana owner with current VSN access will pay a higher club fee, because it will cover free II exchanges back to Vistana and Marriott weeks, no banking fee and no Bonvoy point election fee.  It is not tied to DC enrollment.


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## kozykritter

TravelTime said:


> The comments are getting confusing since many people do not indicate resale vs developer purchased in their comments. One person just said this:
> 
> “The way the higher VSN fee is being presented by Denise's contact and through various posts, it is not tied to DC enrollment. Everyone whose account is currently eligible to use StarOptions will pay the increased VSN fee and in return receive all the fee waivers that have been shown in the documentation. This would exclude only unqualified resale Flex and voluntary properties as they are not StarOption/VSN eligible.”
> 
> From everything I have heard so far, including at a presentation, MVC will allow developer purchased weeks and SOs to be automatically enrolled. What I have heard could be wrong of course. As of right now, I assume resale owners will either need to pay a fee or buy DPs to become part of the new program.


The part you quoted was about the VSN fee, not DC enrollment. If you read further down in the post you will see that I was saying that eligible qualified Vistana ownership could be automatically enrolled in DC by MVC and we've established here that qualified ownership is likely developer purchased or retro'd. Everything is speculation until proven by facts in the end, of course


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## TravelTime

kozykritter said:


> The part you quoted was about the VSN fee, not DC enrollment. If you read further down in the post you will see that I was saying that eligible qualified Vistana ownership could be automatically enrolled in DC by MVC and we've established here that qualified ownership is likely developer purchased or retro'd. Everything is speculation until proven by facts in the end, of course



Okay I am getting confused by all these posts. LOL


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## TravelTime

rickandcindy23 said:


> I won't pay anything to enroll our Westin Ka'anapali units.  We bought them to use them.  Nothing is as good at Marriott as those two weeks.



WKOVRN 2BR OF is worth 8325 destination points. That is a huge points generator and efficient with MFs. I own EOY and pay about $3200 for one week ($1600 EOY). With it worth 8325 DPs, that comes out to $0.38 vs DP cost of about $0.65 in MFs. But what matters to me is I prefer MVC over Vistana’s program for several reasons. I also like  that with 8325 DPs, I can get many more weeks at any MVC/Vistana resort with (hopefully) the 13 month booking window. Okay, this is just me. I can see why if someone’s Vistana week is not worth many DPs, then the Vistana program is better.


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## kozykritter

TravelTime said:


> Okay I am getting confused by all these posts. LOL


I think we all are at this point! Marriott, please put us out of our misery and give us the details already. Come on. I said please


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## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I think you are right. I used to think they would allow mandatory SO week owners to just pay a fee but now I suspect they will want folks to buy some DPs to be part of the new program. That is what they require for Marriott resale owners so why would they require something different for Vistana resale owners?


I think they would have enough developer purchased owners, retro resale, plus all of the unsold inventory to fund DC exchange when the program is rolled out. Plus this allows future sales to those resale owners like me who can’t play in the sandbox. I’ll be super happy if my mandatory resales get to have free interval exchanges and no banking fees with new club dues even if I can’t elect to convert to the DC Exchange. I’d also love to see combined interval preference across all brands! No more preference or priority but a truly combined priority for all.


----------



## DanCali

CPNY said:


> I think they would have enough developer purchased owners, retro resale, plus all of the unsold inventory to fund DC exchange when the program is rolled out. Plus this allows future sales to those resale owners like me who can’t play in the sandbox. I’ll be super happy if my mandatory resales get to have free interval exchanges and no banking fees with new club dues even if I can’t elect to convert to the DC Exchange. I’d also love to see combined interval preference across all brands! No more preference or priority but a truly combined priority for all.




Generally, the way it works right now in MVC is that if you have weeks that don't play in the Points Exchange, they don't benefit from anything.

For example, my unenrolled resale weeks need to be in a separate II account, not in the MVC corporate one. They are also subject to paying a $40 reservation cancelation fee outside the 60-day window (enrolled weeks pay no cancel fees whether used as weeks or points). Enrolled and unenrolled weeks are like two separate universes. They may make things simpler with II exchanges, as you suggest, but there is no indication from the past that it will happen.


----------



## CPNY

DanCali said:


> Generally, the way it works right now in MVC is that if you have weeks that don't play in the Points Exchange, they don't benefit from anything.
> 
> For example, my unenrolled resale weeks need to be in a separate II account, not in the MVC corporate one. They are also subject to paying a $40 reservation cancelation fee outside the 60-day window (enrolled weeks pay no cancel fees whether used as weeks or points). Enrolled and unenrolled weeks are like two separate universes. They may make things simpler with II exchanges, as you suggest, but there is no indication from the past that it will happen.


Right, but mandatory resale owners get a corp interval account. So would those units (if paying the new club dues) be eligible for the interval benefits coming with the new club dues? That’s a big question many of us need answered. I think most mandatory resale owners here understand that we would have to retro to exchange for DC points, but the other benefits associated with the club dues are also being questioned, I.e the free internal interval exchanges removal of banking, and other fees. Unenrolled Marriott weeks are similar to Voluntary resales that are not in the VSN. You need a separate interval account and you need to pay for that account.

Here is a benefit of an enrolled vistana unit. They can book cruises with star options. This is the terms and conditions to book:
“*ELIGIBILITY*

Participants must be VSN members with sufficient available Use Rights to participate in the Owner Cruise offer. Bonus StarOptions, *Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”) purchased through an unauthorized resale agent* or HOA resale offer, or VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are *not eligible* for this offer.“

This is presumably going to be the same terms and conditions associated with the eligibility to convert to DC.

But will the interval benefits of the new club dues carry over to EVERYONE with a Corp account? I for one hope so


----------



## TravelTime

An interesting possibility is that unqualified mandatory resale Vistana weeks might still have a different II account with all the same fees. II has many variations of accounts so keeping what exists for the various classes of resale owners is not complex at all. Just curious why people think mandatory resale owners will be converted to a MVC corporate II account?


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## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> An interesting possibility is that unqualified mandatory resale Vistana weeks might still have a different II account with all the same fees. II has many variations of accounts so keeping what exists for the various classes of resale owners is not complex at all. Just curious why people think mandatory resale owners will be converted to a MVC corporate II account?


Because we already have corporate accounts.


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## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> Because we already have corporate accounts.



Yes but couldn’t you still have the same corporate account as long as the Vistana SOs program exists? My question is why would Marriott need to migrate Vistana owners, even mandatory owners, to a different corporate account with fewer fees? Wouldn’t it make sense that Vistana owners will keep the same II corporate account if nothing else changes with Vistana SOs?


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> Yes but couldn’t you still have the same corporate account as long as the Vistana SOs program exists? My question is why would Marriott need to migrate Vistana owners, even mandatory owners, to a different corporate account with fewer fees?


Because it will one club dues, so there is not a need for a VSN corporate II account.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> Because it will one club dues, so there is not a need for a VSN corporate II account.



I have not been following this stuff about club dues so I am not up to date on the speculation around this. Why would there be one club dues for resale owners who are not in the new integrated program? Wouldn’t it still be two separate programs?


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> I have not been following this stuff about club dues so I am not up to date on the speculation around this. Why would there be one club dues for resale owners who are not in the new integrated program? Wouldn’t it still be two separate programs?


It is one club dues - current SO booking within VSN, free II corporate account, free trades to Marriott and Vistana resorts, no Bonvoy conversion cost and no banking fees.  If it is enrolled in DC, then there is additional election to play in the DC sandbox.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I have not been following this stuff about club dues so I am not up to date on the speculation around this. Why would there be one club dues for resale owners who are not in the new integrated program? Wouldn’t it still be two separate programs?


I posted earlier, they can easily add the new club dues and have some of the benefits but not all of the benefits to all vistana owners in the VSN. Adding interval internal exchanges is probably a drop in the bucket for them. Think about all of the owners with only one VOI. Their club dues/VSN fee just went from 155 to 210. Many never bother with interval or even use the banking option. In reality it sounds like they are giving things away but I’m sure they ran analytics on this and can make out on the deal. This is just a guess, but if I were a betting man, I’d say that there are far less vistana members who exchange In interval compared to Marriott owners. MVW giving all owners who pay club dues free interval exchange would not hurt their profits.


----------



## DanCali

VacationForever said:


> It is one club dues - current SO booking within VSN, free II corporate account, free trades to Marriott and Vistana resorts, no Bonvoy conversion cost and no banking fees.  If it is enrolled in DC, then there is additional election to play in the DC sandbox.



I'll take the devil advocate position here...

Since banked Staroptions (as well as Bonvoy conversion fees, and reservation cancel fees) are associated with a particular week, I am pretty skeptical they would give up all that revenue for non-enrolled weeks. It probably adds up to tens of millions of dollars a year.

What prevents them from still charging those fees for non-enrolled weeks? Like a said a couple of posts ago, I still pay $40 legacy reservation cancelation fees (outside 60-day window) on my MVC non-enrolled weeks. Why would they allow non-enrolled VSN weeks to avoid legacy fees, especially if those fees can be directly associated with the unenrolled week? It doesn't pass the corporate greed smell test...


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## jabberwocky

in the 11 years we’ve owned with Vistana we have never exchanged via II (I have done getaways and redeemed an AC once). Have also never used guest certs.

The only feature we do use is to bank our SO, which costs us $89. So with the combined fee we will be paying around $10/year more than we are now.

I actually think we will still keep our Vistana accounts and not be given and MVC II corporate account. They will just change the fees. I can’t see them creating a whole new set of II accounts and trying to separate out the mandatory resale from the “legitimate” VSN owners.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> I actually think we will still keep our Vistana accounts and not be given and MVC II corporate account. They will just change the fees. I can’t see them creating a whole new set of II accounts and trying to separate out the mandatory resale from the “legitimate” VSN owners.


I think it actually makes sense to provide new II accounts for only those weeks that can be enrolled. When Marriott rolled out their DC program in 2010, if someone enrolled, then they likely enrolled all their weeks and they got a new II account and all the enrolled weeks went in there. With Vistana you may have some owners that have unqualified and qualified weeks in the same II account, if they can only enroll the qualified week, it makes sense for them to create a new II account. They can then segregate the fees easier. I would suspect Vistana owners enrolling in DC will be given the same type of account that Enrolled Marriott owners have and perhaps even have the same resort code added to be able to exchange Club Points through II.


----------



## VacationForever

DanCali said:


> I'll take the devil advocate position here...
> 
> Since banked Staroptions (as well as Bonvoy conversion fees, and reservation cancel fees) are associated with a particular week, I am pretty skeptical they would give up all that revenue for non-enrolled weeks. It probably adds up to tens of millions of dollars a year.
> 
> What prevents them from still charging those fees for non-enrolled weeks? Like a said a couple of posts ago, I still pay $40 legacy reservation cancelation fees (outside 60-day window) on my MVC non-enrolled weeks. Why would they allow non-enrolled VSN weeks to avoid legacy fees, especially if those fees can be directly associated with the unenrolled week? It doesn't pass the corporate greed smell test...


My head hurts.


----------



## TravelTime

I think what I have been asking might have just been answered by what @dioxide45 and @DanCali have said above. @VacationForever  My head hurts too! 

A question I should know the answer to: Is the VSN Membership Fee that’s on my statement that same thing as Club Dues? I get charged that every year on an EOY week. Now that seems ridiculous to me since I only own one week that is billed over 2 years. Why am I charged 2x for one week? Why don’t they charge me half of the VSN Membership Fee every year just like I pay half of the rest of the fees every year? Or am I confused again!


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> I think what I have been asking might have just been answered by what @dioxide45 and @DanCali have said above. @VacationForever  My head hurts too!
> 
> A question I should know the answer to: Is the VSN Membership Fee that’s on my statement that same thing as Club Dues? I get charged that every year on an EOY week. Now that seems ridiculous to me since I only own one week that is billed over 2 years. Why am I charged 2x for one week? Why don’t they charge me half of the VSN Membership Fee every year just like I pay half of the rest of the fees every year? Or am I confused again!


Yes, the VSN fee is Vistana's equivalent to Marriott's Annual DC Club Fee that you pay. Both Marriott and Vistana charge this fee every year, even if you own an EOY ownership. They claim that since it covers other benefits other than just your usage, the fee applies every year. It does provide a free II account for which you can purchase getaways every year.


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> @VacationForever  My head hurts too!
> A question I should know the answer to: Is the VSN Membership Fee that’s on my statement that same thing as Club Dues? I get charged that every year on an EOY week. Now that seems ridiculous to me since I only own one week that is billed over 2 years. Why am I charged 2x for one week? Why don’t they charge me half of the VSN Membership Fee every year just like I pay half of the rest of the fees every year? Or am I confused again!
> 
> Yes, the VSN fee is Vistana's equivalent to Marriott's Annual DC Club Fee that you pay. Both Marriott and Vistana charge this fee every year, even if you own an EOY ownership. They claim that since it covers other benefits other than just your usage, the fee applies every year. It does provide a free II account for which you can purchase getaways every year.



So, following that logic, if a VSN owner has both qualified weeks and unqualified mandatory weeks, under the potential new set if systems they could have both a MVW corporate II account and a Vistana corporate II account and pay both a consolidated club fee and a VSN fee since they are still getting benefits from the Vistana one as well as eligibility for VSN reservations?  There's a lot of potential for hosing up the integration if they leave out the unqualified mandatory weeks....


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## kozykritter

Exactly, dioxide. Plus, II deposits can be used over multiple years including the off year.

Also don't forget that the EOY week comes with StarOptions in the use year that can be banked and used over a couple years so the potential for you to be using the system every year is there. It's not practical for Vistana to turn on and off your account based upon actual II or VSN usage during a given year, even your off year. They are too busy messing up other things


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## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> So, following that logic, if a VSN owner has both qualified weeks and unqualified mandatory weeks, under the potential new set if systems they could have both a MVW corporate II account and a Vistana corporate II account and pay both a consolidated club fee and a VSN fee since they are still getting benefits from the Vistana one as well as eligibility for VSN reservations?  There's a lot of potential for hosing up the integration if they leave out the unqualified mandatory weeks....


I would agree. If they don't include unqualified mandatory resale Vistana weeks, it would be possible for someone to have an unqualified resale and a qualified week. Thus they would have to pay both fees and have two II accounts.


----------



## kozykritter

Eric B said:


> So, following that logic, if a VSN owner has both qualified weeks and unqualified mandatory weeks, under the potential new set if systems they could have both a MVW corporate II account and a Vistana corporate II account and pay both a consolidated club fee and a VSN fee since they are still getting benefits from the Vistana one as well as eligibility for VSN reservations?  There's a lot of potential for hosing up the integration if they leave out the unqualified mandatory weeks....


Seems like you would pay one VSN fee to cover all mandatory weeks since that fee is charged to the owner regardless of week qualified/unqualified status, same as now. Mandatory weeks are still participating in the VSN system and would receive all of the same fee reductions. That fee is not tied to being eligible to enroll in DC with MVC.

The part about how they would handle the II accounts is the mystery here. Based upon things people have been told, it's very possible that things will stay the same as far as II accounts with the exception of ownership that is elected to the DC being moved to a Marriott II account. Not sure how that would all work.


----------



## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> Seems like you would pay one VSN fee to cover all mandatory weeks since that fee is charged to the owner regardless of week qualified/unqualified status, same as now. Mandatory weeks are still participating in the VSN system and would receive all of the same fee reductions. That fee is not tied to being eligible to enroll in DC with MVC. The part about how they would handle the II accounts is the mystery here.



Might work that way, but the devil is in the details.  An owner with enrolled weeks will pay the consolidated club fee and not the VSN fee for those weeks.  We haven’t heard anything about a general amnesty from the VSN fees for unqualified mandatory weeks owned by folks with enrolled weeks, have we?


----------



## kozykritter

Eric B said:


> Might work that way, but the devil is in the details.  An owner with enrolled weeks will pay the consolidated club fee and not the VSN fee for those weeks.  We haven’t heard anything about a general amnesty from the VSN fees for unqualified mandatory weeks owned by folks with enrolled weeks, have we?


The consolidated club fee and the VSN fee are the same thing, they just renamed it to reflect the fact that consolidated transactional fees with the club fee. Everyone will pay it regardless of enrollment ( except those ownerships not eligible for VSN/StarOptions, same as now). It covers all weeks owned regardless of qualified status. This is based upon info shared by Denise's contact and graphics posted by various users after sales presentations so it's the best guess for now on how it will work.


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## kozykritter

I think what's driving the confusion here is when we see words like consolidated we start to think that Marriott is merging Vistana into its timeshare system. To be more accurate what I believe is happening is Marriott is consolidating the administration of the two timeshare systems into one process but not the actual property access portion of the two systems.

Essentially Marriott is changing Vistana's club dues/fees structure to match its own where it charges a higher club fee and all transactional fees are included, presumably so it can merge Vistana owners into its existing IT platform/process for club administration. This has nothing to do with whether a Vistana ownership will be able to enroll in DC. If you pay club/VSN dues on your ownership now you'll continue to pay it going forward. On the property access side, the two timeshare programs are remaining separate with the only bridge being this one-way enrollment option for qualified Vistana ownership into the DC system and the resulting ability for MVC owners to book that inventory when elected.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> I think it actually makes sense to provide new II accounts for only those weeks that can be enrolled. When Marriott rolled out their DC program in 2010, if someone enrolled, then they likely enrolled all their weeks and they got a new II account and all the enrolled weeks went in there. With Vistana you may have some owners that have unqualified and qualified weeks in the same II account, if they can only enroll the qualified week, it makes sense for them to create a new II account. They can then segregate the fees easier. I would suspect Vistana owners enrolling in DC will be given the same type of account that Enrolled Marriott owners have and perhaps even have the same resort code added to be able to exchange Club Points through II.


But does Marriott run the DC through II?  In my case I have developer purchased, retroed voluntary and an unqualified mandatory resale. Currently they are all covered by the same VSN fee. If the new club fee is replacing VSN fee, why wouldn’t they continue to be in the same II account as the fee provides a corporate II account?

Conversion of weeks to DP would not be handled through II would it? I’m thinking that would be via the regular Vistana or Marriott portal they give the Vistana owners. If DP conversion is not going through II there really isn’t a need for a second II account.

 I get that you need a separate II account for resale Marriott weeks (post-2010 purchase) - it is the same for voluntary resales in Vistana. What marriott doesn’t really seem to have is the equivalent of a mandatory week that continues to be in the club even on resale. That is where I think many of us have some doubts as to how this will be handled.


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## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> The consolidated club fee and the VSN fee are the same thing, they just renamed it. Everyone will pay it regardless of enrollment ( except those ownerships not eligible for VSN/StarOptions, same as now). It covers all weeks owned regardless of qualified status. This is based upon info shared by Denise's contact and graphics posted by various users after sales presentations so it's the best guess for now on how it will work.



What I've seen regarding the consolidated club fee in the prior postings from Denise's contact and the outcomes of sales presentations, including one I attended, is that the amount of the fee is dependent on the status the owner has in the club, which is determined by summing the total number of annualized enrolled points the owner could convert if they elected to do so.  I don't believe I had seen an amount listed for someone with zero enrolled points, which would be the case for anyone like me that only owns unqualified mandatory resorts.  I have no doubt that I will be charged something, either a VSN fee as has been the case to date or a consolidated club fee because they allow me to enroll my weeks and I do so.  I don't believe I've seen anything that clarifies what it will be.  The benefits at a glance chart for MVW might be understood to cover me because the lowest tier is a "less than" tier, but having zero enrolled points and being charged for membership probably won't go over very well for an awful lot of people if you ask them.


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## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> The consolidated club fee and the VSN fee are the same thing, they just renamed it. Everyone will pay it regardless of enrollment ( except those ownerships not eligible for VSN/StarOptions, same as now). It covers all weeks owned regardless of qualified status. This is based upon info shared by Denise's contact and graphics posted by various users after sales presentations so it's the best guess for now on how it will work.


I think it will have to be a wait and see how it really works in practice when they implement the program. I see some real problems with them thrusting a 35% price increase on the VSN fee of every Vistana owner, even if they have no plans to ever use the new program. Thus why I expect they will require enrollment into the new program, agreement to the terms and agreement to the new fee. While Denise's contact provided some great information, they didn't really cover or know about the nuances of qualified and unqualified mandatory VOIs.


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## kozykritter

Eric B said:


> What I've seen regarding the consolidated club fee in the prior postings from Denise's contact and the outcomes of sales presentations, including one I attended, is that the amount of the fee is dependent on the status the owner has in the club, which is determined by summing the total number of annualized enrolled points the owner could convert if they elected to do so.  I don't believe I had seen an amount listed for someone with zero enrolled points, which would be the case for anyone like me that only owns unqualified mandatory resorts.  I have no doubt that I will be charged something, either a VSN fee as has been the case to date or a consolidated club fee because they allow me to enroll my weeks and I do so.  I don't believe I've seen anything that clarifies what it will be.  The benefits at a glance chart for MVW might be understood to cover me because the lowest tier is a "less than" tier, but having zero enrolled points and being charged for membership probably won't go over very well for an awful lot of people if you ask them.


It's all speculation at this point so each of us gets to form our own opinion of what will actually happen.


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## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> It's all speculation at this point so each of us gets to form our own opinion of what will actually happen.



We're in complete agreement on that!


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## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> I think it will have to be a wait and see how it really works in practice when they implement the program. I see some real problems with them thrusting a 35% price increase on the VSN fee of every Vistana owner, even if they have no plans to ever use the new program. Thus why I expect they will require enrollment into the new program, agreement to the terms and agreement to the new fee. While Denise's contact provided some great information, they didn't really cover or know about the nuances of qualified and unqualified mandatory VOIs.


They've had no problem raising the club the significantly over the 10 years that I've been an owner so I doubt that will be a consideration now, especially since this raise includes eliminating other fees as part of it. I believe the word consolidated in the name of the new fee applies to that aspect of it and not any consolidation with Marriott.


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## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> They've had no problem raising the club the significantly over the 10 years that I've been an owner so I doubt that will be a consideration now, especially since this raise includes eliminating other fees as part of it. I believe the word consolidated in the name of the new fee applies to that aspect of it and not any consolidation with Marriott.


Perhaps, but a 35% increase over 10 years is much different than a 35%+ increase in one year. The one crux will be about how unqualified mandatory weeks are handled. Will they want to provide free II exchanges for those weeks even if they can't use Club Points? They may be a small enough population that Marriott won't really care much.

The term "consolidated" goes back to how the fee was originally pitched to Marriott owners in 2010 when they rolled out DC. They consolidated all the Marriott fees ($35 weeks cancellation fee, lock off fee, exchange fees, split week fees, II membership fee) into the DC Club Fee for enrolled weeks. The fee would be the same on the Vistana side and consolidate all of the fees their owners pay (banking fee, cancellation fee, guest certificate, exchange fees). I don't think we can take the term consolidated to mean they will eliminate the VSN fee for everyone. We don't know if enrollment is going to be required for everyone or if it will be like on the Marriott side where owners had to take specific action to enroll their weeks and agree to terms of the new program.


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## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> The term "consolidated" goes back to how the fee was originally pitched to Marriott owners in 2010 when they rolled out DC.* They consolidated all the Marriott fees ($35 weeks cancellation fee, lock off fee, exchange fees, split week fees, II membership fee) into the DC Club Fee for anyone that enrolled. *The fee would be the same on the Vistana side and consolidate all of the fees their owners pay (banking fee, cancellation fee, guest certificate, exchange fees).




I am not sure that is a fully accurate characterization. It's more like they "consolidated the Marriott fees for an owner's enrolled weeks."

I have MVC enrolled weeks and unenrolled weeks. For the unenrolled weeks I am still subject to reservation cancelation fees. I also need to pay for a separate II account if I wish to maintain one (I am not sure how the II exchange fees in that account because I never used it to make an exchange). I think that distinction is important because I don't think owners of unenrolled weeks should expect fees associated with those weeks (banking fees, Bonvoy conversion fees, reservation cancel fees) to go away even if they have other enrolled weeks.


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## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> I am not sure that is a fully accurate characterization. It's more like they "consolidated the Marriott fees for an owner's enrolled weeks."
> 
> I have MVC enrolled weeks and unenrolled weeks. For the unenrolled weeks I am still subject to reservation cancelation fees. I also need to pay for a separate II account if I wish to maintain one (I am not sure how the II exchange fees in that account because I never used it to make an exchange). I think that distinction is important because I don't think owners of unenrolled weeks should expect fees associated with those weeks (banking fees, Bonvoy conversion fees, reservation cancel fees) to go away even if they have other enrolled weeks.


That is what I meant, I updated to clarify my post. I think we are splitting hairs here.

I agree with what you are saying. I don't expect those fees to go away for VOIs (could also be Flex and not weeks) that aren't eligible.


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## kozykritter

DanCali said:


> I am not sure that is a fully accurate characterization. It's more like they "consolidated the Marriott fees for an owner's enrolled weeks."
> 
> I have MVC enrolled weeks and unenrolled weeks. For the unenrolled weeks I am still subject to reservation cancelation fees. I also need to pay for a separate II account if I wish to maintain one (I am not sure how the II exchange fees in that account because I never used it to make an exchange). I think that distinction is important because I don't think owners of unenrolled weeks should expect fees associated with those weeks (banking fees, Bonvoy conversion fees, reservation cancel fees) to go away even if they have other enrolled weeks.


We'll see. I think any week already subject to the VSN fee will continue to be charged the fee in its new form with all transactional fees consolidated. The equivalent of a MVC unenrolled week in the Vistana system is unqualified voluntary ownership which aren't currently eligible to participate in the VSN and don't pay a membership fee. They will likely continue to pay all those individual fees that you were talking about.


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## Eric B

DanCali said:


> I don't think owners of unenrolled weeks should expect fees associated with those weeks (banking fees, Bonvoy conversion fees, reservation cancel fees) to go away even if they have other enrolled weeks.



Functionally, the guest fee seems to have gone away due to the ability to change the name on a reservation in the Bonvoy system, which is the one used at the resorts to see who is checking in.  There is at least that as an indication that the modifications they are making to their systems are not distinguishing between enrolled and unenrolled weeks.  I was able to change the name on a reservation that I had made for someone using banked StarOptions at a resort and in the season and room type I own by doing that just this week - I will call and verify with the resort that they have the proper name on the reservation a couple of weeks or so before the check in date and pay to make the change in the VSN system if I have to, but suspect that it won't be necessary.  Based on postings by others, the same issues are taking place with reservations for voluntary resale weeks.

It would be nice to know what the final IT set up will be for VSN and MVW as there doesn't seem to be good feedback between the two systems vis-à-vis the guest names.  I'm not willing to try out the functionality of canceling within 60 days in the Bonvoy system to see if that works properly.


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## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> Functionally, the guest fee seems to have gone away due to the ability to change the name on a reservation in the Bonvoy system,


I think this is an oversight in the Bonvoy system. I don't think Vistana had the intention of having owners change the name on a reservation in the Marriott.com website. Marriott.com is a website owned and managed by a completely separate entity than either Marriott Vacation Club or Vistana. MVC owner reservations are only a small fraction of the total reservations that run through Marriott.com and I suspect they didn't ask MVC or Vistana about anything when making changes to Marriott.com. MVC has never charged for guest name changes.


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## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> We'll see. I think any week already subject to the VSN fee will continue to be charged the fee in its new form with all transactional fees consolidated. The equivalent of a MVC unenrolled week in the Vistana system is unqualified voluntary ownership which aren't currently eligible to participate in the VSN and don't pay a membership fee. They will likely continue to pay all those individual fees that you were talking about.



Unqualified voluntary weeks can't be banked or converted to Bonvoy points, so those are irrelevant.  Are they subject to the same cancellation fees as a VSN week is?  I'm not sure how that would work, but guest fees would be inapplicable as they all have to be home week reservations and there would also not be any split housekeeping fees because they can't be booked that way.  Not sure what fees there would actually be.


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## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> It would be nice to know what the final IT set up will be for VSN and MVW as there doesn't seem to be good feedback between the two systems vis-à-vis the guest names. I'm not willing to try out the functionality of canceling within 60 days in the Bonvoy system to see if that works properly.


In the past, when someone tried to cancel an MVC owner reservation on Marriott.com, it simply didn't work. I think you are conflating two things that are not the same. Marriott.com/Bonvoy will not be the website used for owner reservations in any way shape or form. It may allow certain modifications, but I suspect it is all an oversight by Marriott International (hotel company)


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## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> I think this is an oversight in the Bonvoy system. I don't think Vistana had the intention of having owners change the name on a reservation in the Marriott.com website. Marriott.com is a website owned and managed by a completely separate entity than either Marriott Vacation Club or Vistana. MVC owner reservations are only a small fraction of the total reservations that run through Marriott.com and I suspect they didn't ask MVC or Vistana about anything when making changes to Marriott.com. MVC has never charged for guest name changes.


Maybe it would be best if we didn’t discuss this in a public forum if we want to keep it this way.


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## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> I think it will have to be a wait and see how it really works in practice when they implement the program. I see some real problems with them thrusting a 35% price increase on the VSN fee of every Vistana owner, even if they have no plans to ever use the new program. Thus why I expect they will require enrollment into the new program, agreement to the terms and agreement to the new fee. While Denise's contact provided some great information, they didn't really cover or know about the nuances of qualified and unqualified mandatory VOIs.


I try to simplify things as much as possible. Effectively, for Marriott Weeks owners "enrollment in the Destination Club" has really only ever meant that you're choosing to join a separate and distinct exchange company. The Destination Club itself is a three-pronged entity: the DC Trust to which MVC-owned/controlled Weeks can be conveyed; the DC Trust Points that correlate to those conveyances which are sold as "Beneficial Interests" in the Trust (1 BI = 250 Trust Points; ) and, the Destination Club Exchange Company which gives owners of eligible Weeks an additional usage option allowing them to play in the DC sandbox, if they want that option. Sure, with enrollment there comes ancillary DC usage options and benefits in addition to the Exchange Company membership, but joining another exchange company is basically what the DC means for owners of enrolled Weeks.

What exchange company exists that is allowed, legally, to automatically add owners to its membership list and charge them fees for that membership?!

Somebody (I think it was @DanCali maybe?) somewhere yesterday posted a screenshot of the first page of the "Enrollment Agreement" contract that he signed when he enrolled his Marriott Weeks. Like he said it's ten or so pages of legalese to which the enrollee must agree. Marriott didn't design it that way because that's what worked for them, they designed it that way because that's what the law requires of them. It's an opt-in process, not automatic at all.

I get why there are so many questions about which Vistana ownerships will be eligible for DC membership, and why/how the VSN club fees that some of you are already paying throw a curveball that's not familiar to those of us who don't own Vistana. What I don't understand is the thought process that somehow because those VSN club fees already exist, Marriott can simply thrust this new option on all the club members and raise all their fees in the process.


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## TravelTime

Here is what I am wondering. I own the following and have 3 II accounts in the following buckets:
1) DPs and enrolled MVC weeks, one corporate MVC II account and one set of annual club fees
2) Unqualified EOY resale Mandatory Vistana week, a corporate Vistana II account and annual VSN fees
3) Unqualified MVC week and a personal II account for all my unqualified weeks and other timeshares

So I would assume if I make no changes after the roll out of the integrated program, nothing changes in the above buckets. I will pay the same fees.

OTOH, based on what I am hearing, if I enroll my Vistana week in bucket #2, then that week **might** move to bucket #1 and the VSN fees will go away and I will then pay one set of annual club fees for buckets #1 and #2???

My question has been regarding bucket #2. Let’s say you do not enroll your week in the new integrated program and the StarOptions program still exists for exchanging Vistana weeks, why would anything change with the way Marriott charges fees for unqualified resale weeks, regardless of whether they are mandatory or voluntary?


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## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Maybe it would be best if we didn’t discuss this in a public forum if we want to keep it this way.


Maybe.


TravelTime said:


> Here is what I am wondering. I own the following and have 3 II accounts in the following buckets:
> 1) DPs and enrolled MVC weeks, one corporate MVC II account and one set of annual club fees
> 2) Unqualified EOY resale Mandatory Vistana week, a corporate Vistana II account and annual VSN fees
> 3) Unqualified MVC week and a personal II account for all my unqualified weeks and other timeshares
> 
> So I would assume if I make no changes after the roll out of the integrated program, nothing changes in the above buckets. I will pay the same fees.
> 
> OTOH, based on what I am hearing, if I enroll my Vistana week in bucket #2, then that week **might** move to bucket #1 and the VSN fees will go away and I will then pay one set of annual club fees for buckets #1 and #2???
> 
> My question has been regarding bucket #2. Let’s say you do not enroll your week in the new integrated program and the StarOptions program still exists for exchanging Vistana weeks, why would anything change with the way the Marriott charges fees for unqualified resale weeks?


Good questions. Unfortunately no one, at least not here, is qualified to answer. We are all still guessing even after Marriott supposedly had a soft launch of the program. They were woefully underprepared and it seems this is all done for one main reason; confuse existing owners so they can sell them something more.


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## kozykritter

Right now the only two things we know for certain are...

-Change *is* coming
-Once it arrives, there will be perceived winners and losers. 

Sounds a lot like life


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## Captron

SueDonJ said:


> What exchange company exists that is allowed, legally, to automatically add owners to its membership list and charge them fees for that membership?!
> 
> Somebody (I think it was @DanCali maybe?) somewhere yesterday posted a screenshot of the first page of the "Enrollment Agreement" contract that he signed when he enrolled his Marriott Weeks. Like he said it's ten or so pages of legalese to which the enrollee must agree. Marriott didn't design it that way because that's what worked for them, they designed it that way because that's what the law requires of them. It's an opt-in process, not automatic at all.
> 
> I get why there are so many questions about which Vistana ownerships will be eligible for DC membership, and why/how the VSN club fees that some of you are already paying throw a curveball that's not familiar to those of us who don't own Vistana. What I don't understand is the thought process that somehow because those VSN club fees already exist, Marriott can simply thrust this new option on all the club members and raise all their fees in the process.



I don't think they have to "automatically add owners to its membership list and charge them fees for that membership" they can simply increase the VSN fee to match the Club dues and "include" membership/access to DC to the ADDITIONAL benefits VSN owners will receive for paying their NEW (higher) VSN fee


I can see the sales pitch now (For all those who currently pay the VSN fee)...

VSN Fees are increasing by ~35% but look what you are getting!!! banking fee, cancellation fee, guest certificate, exchange fees, etc. all waived.

*BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE! IF YOU CALL RIGHT NOW WE WILL INCLUDE* the ability to [insert sales speak meaning "access" the DC system] *AT NO EXTRA CHARGE!!!* _(just pay the shipping and handling fees)_

You get ALL of that INCLUDED!!!                                                               *ALL OF THAT FOR THE LOW LOW PRICE OF...*

(and yes, there will be an agreement to electronically sign)                       JUST SIGN HERE ________________________

_We accept Visa, MC, AMEX, Discover, EBT, and any other way to transfer money from your pocket to ours._


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## Eric B

Captron said:


> I don't think they have to "automatically add owners to its membership list and charge them fees for that membership" they can simply increase the VSN fee to match the Club dues....



But the Club dues are based on total enrolled points.


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## Captron

Eric B said:


> But the Club dues are based on total enrolled points.


So that is the price that individual member is quoted as their annual dues. I am sure even this IT department can figure out how to auto-populate the blank in the pitch.

I am not a programmer but (<x points = fee 1, x points - y points= fee 2, >y points= fee 3)


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## SueDonJ

Captron said:


> I don't think they have to "automatically add owners to its membership list and charge them fees for that membership" they can simply increase the VSN fee to match the Club dues and "include" membership/access to DC to the ADDITIONAL benefits VSN owners will receive for paying their NEW (higher) VSN fee
> 
> 
> I can see the sales pitch now (For all those who currently pay the VSN fee)...
> 
> VSN Fees are increasing by ~35% but look what you are getting!!! banking fee, cancellation fee, guest certificate, exchange fees, etc. all waived.
> 
> *BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE! IF YOU CALL RIGHT NOW WE WILL INCLUDE* the ability to [insert sales speak meaning "access" the DC system] *AT NO EXTRA CHARGE!!!* _(just pay the shipping and handling fees)_
> 
> You get ALL of that INCLUDED!!!                                                               *ALL OF THAT FOR THE LOW LOW PRICE OF...*
> 
> (and yes, there will be an agreement to electronically sign)                       JUST SIGN HERE ________________________
> 
> _We accept Visa, MC, AMEX, Discover, EBT, and any other way to transfer money from your pocket to ours._


So what happens if a Vistana owner doesn't sign whatever legal documents require their signature for membership?


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## kozykritter

Club dues in the Marriott system are based upon total enrolled points. Club dues in the Vistana system will be based upon elite level. The higher the elite level, the higher the club fee which makes sense because the more you own, the more likely you are to have a higher level of transactional fees which are being consolidated into the club dues.


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## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> Club dues in the Marriott system are based upon total enrolled points. Club dues in the Vistana system will be based upon elite level. The higher the elite level, the higher the club fee which makes sense because the more you own, the more likely you are to have a higher level of transactional fees which are being consolidated into the club dues.



Perhaps.  Right now I pay a specific amount for my first VOI, a smaller specific amount for my second VOI, and nothing for any additional VOIs.  If they make it based on the elite level, my VSN fees should go down because I'm a resale peon without any elite status.


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## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> Perhaps.  Right now I pay a specific amount for my first VOI, a smaller specific amount for my second VOI, and nothing for any additional VOIs.  If they make it based on the elite level, my VSN fees should go down because I'm a resale peon without any elite status.


In your case it will actually stay the same. The price for the lowest level Marriott DC Club fee is $215. The VSN fee is $155+$60. Works out the same. It will be single VOI owners or higher level elites that will see an increase.


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## Captron

SueDonJ said:


> So what happens if a Vistana owner doesn't sign whatever legal documents require their signature for membership?


Then they stay where they are right now, just like the current non-VSN fee members. _(Ya gotta pay to play)_

Now, whether or not they charge them the higher fee.... that will be seen.


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## SueDonJ

kozykritter said:


> Club dues in the Marriott system are based upon total enrolled points. Club dues in the Vistana system will be based upon elite level. The higher the elite level, the higher the club fee which makes sense because the more you own, the more likely you are to have a higher level of transactional fees which are being consolidated into the club dues.


In the Destination Club it's the number of DC Points (purchased Trust Points and Exchange Points from enrolled Weeks combined) that determines the DC Status Tier, which in turn determines the annual Club Dues fee. Currently the fees are: 

*$215 Owners and Select Members*
*$255 Executive and Presidential Members*
*$280 Chairman's Club Members*


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## Captron

The fee structure will be based on whatever they decide they want to base the fee structure on. It may be (potential) club points, elite status, number of VOI/trust points, or _based on the height of the owner. _None of us have any idea and could speculate all day long. This is just another "wait and see" issue. Some will consider the result fair, some won't.

My point was they do not have to transfer the membership or automatically enroll anyone. They just increase the fee to match and provide the "added benefits".

Now, what they do with all the other permutations of enrolled/not enrolled/voluntary/mandatory, etc. will also have to be seen. Your guess is as good as mine, probably better. In the end our guesses, desires, expectations, don't matter. They will do everything they can to design the membership and fee structure to benefit shareholders and balance that with pi$$ing off members and come up with something that we will all just have to live with (or sell).


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## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I would agree. If they don't include unqualified mandatory resale Vistana weeks, it would be possible for someone to have an unqualified resale and a qualified week. Thus they would have to pay both fees and have two II accounts.


An owner with the following: a mandatory unenrolled resale week, a developer vistana week, an unenrolled Marriott trader, plus DC points could potentially have 3 II accounts. 4 if you add in a voluntary resale week into the VOI portfolio. I have a feeling they won’t separate mandatory resale owners corp II accounts if someone had an VSN enrolled and unenrolled in the same account. They will just add the same interval benefits to all corp interval accounts. That’s my hope anyway.


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## dioxide45

Captron said:


> The fee structure will be based on whatever they decide they want to base the fee structure on. It may be (potential) club points, elite status, number of VOI/trust points, or _based on the height of the owner. _None of us have any idea and could speculate all day long. This is just another "wait and see" issue.
> 
> My point was they do not have to transfer the membership or automatically enroll anyone. They just increase the fee to match and provide the "added benefits".


The question is though, do the added benefits apply to everyone? I suspect the fee will be based on what the fee is based on now, and that is the Marriott DC Ownership level. No need to change it to something else.


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## SueDonJ

Captron said:


> The fee structure will be based on whatever they decide they want to base the fee structure on. It may be (potential) club points, elite status, number of VOI/trust points, or _based on the height of the owner. _None of us have any idea and could speculate all day long. This is just another "wait and see" issue.


Of course, we're all speculating. But although this is new to Vistana owners, the Destination Club isn't a brand new entity in the same way that it was for us Marriott owners at its 2010 inception. We're already somewhat familiar with the legal structures/requirements, and to me it makes sense to consider the possibilities with those legal issues in mind.

Our website is unavailable until Monday otherwise we could be pulling excerpts from the DC governing docs that support the opt-in requirements for membership, and how the Club Dues fee is directly tied to the choice to enroll. It's clear in the docs, in legalese but clear nonetheless, that Marriott doesn't have the right to force any Marriott owner to become a member or be required to pay membership-related fees. I would hope that they don't have the right to do it with Vistana owners either.

Eligibility for membership is different - Marriott has the absolute right to determine which like products are eligible to be enrolled in the DC (and they have the right to occasionally change the eligibility requirements which they've done as intermittent sales incentives.) But membership isn't automatically conferred with eligibility and I think that's because the owners have the right to determine if they want in or not - which if they do want in, they must agree to the contract terms.


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## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> An owner with the following: a mandatory unenrolled resale week, a developer vistana week, an unenrolled Marriott trader, plus DC points could potentially have 3 II accounts. 4 if you add in a voluntary resale week into the VOI portfolio. I have a feeling they won’t separate mandatory resale owners corp II accounts if someone had an VSN enrolled and unenrolled in the same account. They will just add the same interval benefits to all corp interval accounts. That’s my hope anyway.


I don't think you could get to four. An unenrolled Marriott trader and a Vistana voluntary resale can be held in the same Individual II account. My suspicion is that when a Vistana VOI is enrolled, it will get a new II account just like Marriott weeks do when they get enrolled in DC. If someone has both an enrolled Marriott week and then enrolls an eligible Vistana VOI, they will just add that week to the same DC Corp II account they have for Marriott already and remove it from the Vistana Corp account.


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## SandyPGravel

TravelTime said:


> I think what I have been asking might have just been answered by what @dioxide45 and @DanCali have said above. @VacationForever  My head hurts too!
> 
> A question I should know the answer to: Is the VSN Membership Fee that’s on my statement that same thing as Club Dues? I get charged that every year on an EOY week. Now that seems ridiculous to me since I only own one week that is billed over 2 years. Why am I charged 2x for one week? *Why don’t they charge me half of the VSN Membership Fee every year just like I pay half of the rest of the fees every year?* Or am I confused again!


It's always been that way.  That's a disadvantage of owning EOY.  I thought the MF for an EOY weren't exactly 1/2 of the MF of an annual either.  Aren't EOY MF higher?  (I'm not sure about this aspect obviously)


----------



## dioxide45

SandyPGravel said:


> It's always been that way.  That's a disadvantage of owning EOY.  I thought the MF for an EOY weren't exactly 1/2 of the MF of an annual either.  Aren't EOY MF higher?  (I'm not sure about this aspect obviously)


It depends on the resort. I had read in the past that there was an extra $30 fee on EOY maintenance fee billings. But we don't have that on our SVV EOY week. So it seems to be resort specific and perhaps applies to EOY Flex products.


----------



## Captron

SueDonJ said:


> Of course, we're all speculating. But although this is new to Vistana owners, the Destination Club isn't a brand new entity in the same way that it was for us Marriott owners at its 2010 inception. We're already somewhat familiar with the legal structures/requirements, and to me it makes sense to consider the possibilities with those legal issues in mind.
> 
> Our website is unavailable until Monday otherwise we could be pulling excerpts from the DC governing docs that support the opt-in requirements for membership, and how the Club Dues fee is directly tied to the choice to enroll. It's clear in the docs, in legalese but clear nonetheless, that Marriott doesn't have the right to force any Marriott owner to become a member or be required to pay membership-related fees. I would hope that they don't have the right to do it with Vistana owners either.
> 
> Eligibility for membership is different - Marriott has the absolute right to determine which like products are eligible to be enrolled in the DC (and they have the right to occasionally change the eligibility requirements which they've done as intermittent sales incentives.) But membership isn't automatically conferred with eligibility and I think that's because the owners have the right to determine if they want in or not - which if they do want in, they must agree to the contract terms.



Susan, I believe I qualified my comments to VSN fee paying members. If I did not, I intended to. These are all people that are in VSN either because it is mandatory at their resort or they have in some way opted in. This second group of people may be able to withdraw from VSN but they would likely lose the benefits they gained by joining (SO exchanges, corporate II account, etc.). The legalese between the two programs will likely change to be very similar if not almost exactly the same as allowed by the governing documents. It likely is quite similar in effect now. Eligibility and fees for the VSN members will be defined, just as it is for Marriott owners. Mandatory resort owners ARE required to be VSN members (with all the benefits and obligations included.)

Bottom line, unless they are mandatory resort owners, they have opted into VSN and have agreed to and signed documents appropriately. They also have the option to opt out. The fees will be set at whatever amount they determine. If they are mandatory resort owners they have signed acknowledgment that they are required to be members at purchase. That is part of their contract package. The program has the right to, and has, adjusted the fees. The eligibility for access to the Marriott system would just be an added benefit to VSN. No obligation. I am sure, that when a VSN member chooses to access the MVC system and convert to DC points the documents they sign will include an agreement to abide by the Marriott rules, yada yada yada...


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## SueDonJ

Captron said:


> Susan, I believe I qualified my comments to VSN fee paying members. If I did not, I intended to. These are all people that are in VSN either because it is mandatory at their resort or they have in some way opted in. This second group of people may be able to withdraw from VSN but they would likely lose the benefits they gained by joining (SO exchanges, corporate II account, etc.). The legalese between the two programs will likely change to be very similar if not almost exactly the same as allowed by the governing documents. It likely is quite similar in effect now. Eligability and fees for the VSN members will be defined, just as it is for Marriott owners. Mandatory resort owners ARE required to be VSN members (with all the benefits and obligations included.)


I think I understand all that, and I never thought I'd be taking a crash course in VSN!

My viewpoint is that of a Marriott owner where enrollment in the DC is separate and distinct from every other facet of Marriott ownership, which requires contractual acceptance. Yours, I think (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) is that enrollment in the DC won't be separate and distinct for Vistana owners who are already in VSN, that DC membership will be conferred automatically - and related fees automatically required - with every VSN account.

Here again I think the difference is eligibility vs enrollment, which DeniseM's question&answer person seemed to make it very clear that VSN membership confers eligibility but wasn't clear at all that it would confer automatic enrollment. Even if all VSN members are eligible, knowing the DC set-up I just don't see how Marriott can dictate that all eligible Vistana owners/members are automatically enrolled whether they want to be or not. It just doesn't seem legally possible to me. That's why I see the DC option for all Vistana owners/members as a separate and distinct overlay on whatever your ownership consists of now, with those who choose it having their VSN club fees adjusted higher to reflect that choice but more importantly, with those who don't choose it not being subject to the higher fees.


----------



## Captron

SueDonJ said:


> I think I understand all that, and I never thought I'd be taking a crash course in VSN!
> 
> My viewpoint is that of a Marriott owner where enrollment in the DC is separate and distinct from every other facet of Marriott ownership. Yours, I think (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) is that enrollment in the DC won't be separate and distinct for Vistana owners who are already in VSN, that DC membership will be conferred automatically - and related fees automatically required - with every VSN account.
> 
> Here again I think the difference is eligibility vs enrollment, which DeniseM's question&answer person seemed to make it very clear that VSN membership confers eligibility but wasn't clear at all that it would confer automatic enrollment. Even if all VSN members are eligible, knowing the DC set-up I just don't see how Marriott can dictate that all eligible Vistana owners/members are automatically enrolled whether they want to be or not. It just doesn't seem legally possible to me. That's why I see the DC option for all Vistana owners/members as a separate and distinct overlay on whatever your ownership consists of now, with those who choose it having their VSN club fees adjusted higher to reflect that choice but more importantly, with those who don't choose it not being subject to the higher fees.



VSN membership, unlike DC enrollment, is required at some resorts (mandatory resorts). That is why resales at those resorts retain some, not all, of the benefits of VSN membership like the original owner. Any other (voluntary resorts) owners have opted into VSN, and could opt back out (based on their contract of course).

I never said DC membership will be conferred automatically. Perhaps I was unclear. I believe I said that the option to (voluntarily) access the DC system could be added as a VSN benefit. The benefit would be there if they choose to use it on an annual basis (as I understand from other's research) to convert their weeks/points (aka Options) to DC points. In exchange, Marriott members have access to "some" inventory from VSN properties. That inventory could come from weeks/points converted to DC points, Marriott inventory via buybacks/ROFR etc., Bonvoy point conversions, or wherever. That is another wait-and-see issue.

I would disagree with your last point. I could easily see them adjusting (raising) the fees and telling people "You now have access to these additional benefits..."  [take it or leave it] That is why I scripted the sales pitch. They will have to soften the blow of additional costs with additional benefits in order not to have a mutiny (possible mass exodus) of members. That would not be in their financial best interest. In reality though, 35% seems like a big increase but when it really comes to less than or around $100. I don't see it as a huge issue for most. (Now when property insurance rates double, as they have recently in some areas of Florida, that means thousands to some people who can not afford it, but that is a different issue.)

As others have postulated, I believe that the DC option will simply be overlaid as an added benefit to the VSN program. The programs remain distinct entities. On this point, I think we agree.

Pure speculation: Could they, and would they, eventually merge the two programs? Probably would be my guess to both, eventually, but not for a long while and without some serious legal wrangling. I believe they have the contractual right to dissolve VSN completely and say "If you like, you have been granted access and can move all of your weeks/points to the DC system for ___ DC points" free or for $. Otherwise you could retain your ability to use your week/time, exchange it with an exchange company, or rent it out, like the old days of timeshare. (I bought original SVR Courts [pre Starwood], and SBP when it was still pre construction as an Embassy Resort, so I know those old days) I see that as being extremely unlikely, but I believe they can dissolve the network. I am not sure of the ability for the mandatory resorts but I believe even there they can terminate the agreement with the resort somehow. (I am sure that will be corrected by someone) Marriott created the DC system. I am sure there is an escape clause in their contracts somewhere that they can use to terminate it as well. Again, unlikely, but possible. Hence, buy where you want to go and deeds are considered better [to most] than points/options/???.

Lastly, the contract between the VSN the DC programs will dictate obligations, costs and benefits related to all of this. It will define the relationship between the two entities and it's members including what respective members can/can not do. That is all (to borrow a military phrase) above my pay grade.


----------



## kozykritter

Sometimes I have to remind myself on here to take a breath, let it go and not take it all so seriously. Can anyone relate?


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## Captron

kozykritter said:


> Sometimes I have to remind myself on here to take a breath, let it go and not take it all so seriously. Can you relate?
> View attachment 54011


Indeed, I just have some free time waiting for my daughters and appreciate the debate/mental sparring. I apologize if it seems otherwise. Susan, I hold no ill will. I appreciate the opportunity to learn.


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## Red elephant

kozykritter said:


> I think what's driving the confusion here is when we see words like consolidated we start to think that Marriott is merging Vistana into its timeshare system. To be more accurate what I believe is happening is Marriott is consolidating the administration of the two timeshare systems into one process but not the actual property access portion of the two systems.
> 
> Essentially Marriott is changing Vistana's club dues/fees structure to match its own where it charges a higher club fee and all transactional fees are included, presumably so it can merge Vistana owners into its existing IT platform/process for club administration. This has nothing to do with whether a Vistana ownership will be able to enroll in DC. If you pay club/VSN dues on your ownership now you'll continue to pay it going forward. On the property access side, the two timeshare programs are remaining separate with the only bridge being this one-way enrollment option for qualified Vistana ownership into the DC system and the resulting ability for MVC owners to book that inventory when elected.


This is how it was explained to me at the presentation last week.


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## SueDonJ

kozykritter said:


> Sometimes I have to remind myself on here to take a breath, let it go and not take it all so seriously. Can you relate?
> View attachment 54011


I don't think I will ever understand the motivation of people who insert themselves into discussions in which they apparently have no interest by belittling those who are participating and are interested. If you don't like a thread, just don't read it! Why do you have to ascribe insulting motivations to the people who want to do what you don't want to do?!?!


Captron said:


> Indeed, I just have some free time waiting for my daughters and appreciate the debate/mental sparring. I apologize if it seems otherwise. Susan, I hold no ill will. I appreciate the opportunity to learn.


I agree with you, @Captron, and also intend no ill will. These kinds of detailed threads have always interested me on TUG! Vistana people are facing a substantial change to their ownerships - some want to talk it out, some don't, and there's nothing wrong with either choice. It doesn't seem to me that anyone is here declaring themselves to be more correct than anyone else - we're all just people who might have knowledge to bring to the table. I can appreciate that Vistana people can teach me a whole lot about what they own, and I hope that the knowledge I have about what I own is equally appreciated. There's no doubt that eventually, whenever Marriott finally springs on Vistana owners whatever it is they're facing that will integrate our ownerships, both viewpoints will only help to understand it sooner rather than later.


----------



## robertk2012

kozykritter said:


> Club dues in the Marriott system are based upon total enrolled points. Club dues in the Vistana system will be based upon elite level. The higher the elite level, the higher the club fee which makes sense because the more you own, the more likely you are to have a higher level of transactional fees which are being consolidated into the club dues.



What if I don’t have an elite level?


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## dioxide45

robertk2012 said:


> What if I don’t have an elite level?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In the Marriott DC program, everyone has an ownership level. If you have no Vistana elite level, you would likely be considered either "Owner" or "Select" in the MVC DC tiers. It would depend on how many Club Points your VOIs would elect for.


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## robertk2012

What dates have you been given for the the new system? I was told that June 1 and June 30 would be the cutoff for deeded sales. 


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## DanCali

robertk2012 said:


> What if I don’t have an elite level?



That a minor issue that you can solve at your next owner update. Just have your credit card handy and $30K-$40K in available credit!


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## rickandcindy23

TravelTime said:


> WKOVRN 2BR OF is worth 8325 destination points. That is a huge points generator and efficient with MFs. I own EOY and pay about $3200 for one week ($1600 EOY). With it worth 8325 DPs, that comes out to $0.38 vs DP cost of about $0.65 in MFs. But what matters to me is I prefer MVC over Vistana’s program for several reasons. I also like  that with 8325 DPs, I can get many more weeks at any MVC/Vistana resort with (hopefully) the 13 month booking window. Okay, this is just me. I can see why if someone’s Vistana week is not worth many DPs, then the Vistana program is better.


I bought mine resale.  Marriott hates resale.


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## TravelTime

rickandcindy23 said:


> I bought mine resale.  Marriott hates resale.



I bought mine resale but I plan to enroll it because it is a great point generator and cost effective on a MF basis. I can travel 2-3 weeks with 8325 points anywhere with great views or I can get the equivalent of 1.5 weeks in most places in Hawaii in oceanfront category or I can use my primary week. If I were okay with traveling without ocean front then even in Maui, the point cost will be below 8325.

For example, in June we are going to Ritz Carlton St Thomas for 15 nights and it is 8000 points. All the units are ocean front with fabulous views.

I have a week booked over Easter break (very high season) at the MOC / Maui oceanfront in Lahaina/Napili and it is only a little more than what I get. It is 8550 DPs. I am using my WKOVRN week followed by a second week at MOC. But if I book in a lower season, it would be 7450 points instead in OF category. If I were okay with ocean view category, 6650 DPs.

Another example is a week at Marco Island in gulf front that I have booked. It costs 4250 DPs. Marco Island in any season books up right away even in low season. It is just as desirable as Maui but a lot fewer points needed.

The other benefit is by enrolling, I will be Chairman’s Club level. It does not have many benefits over Presidential but I like the extra 6 months of banking so it becomes 2 years of banking. I am hoping MVC enhances Chairman’s Club at some point. They really need to if they want to sell more points to Presidential level members.

So IMO, enrolling WKOVRN 2BR OF is a fabulous thing. I understand that many people are happy using their week or many Vistana resorts are not great point generators. In that case, I would not enroll.

I assume you know all this. Everyone has different preferences and that is okay. I am just sharing why I want to enroll.


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## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> I bought mine resale but I plan to enroll it because it is a great point generator and cost effective on a MF basis.
> 
> ....
> 
> So IMO, enrolling WKOVRN 2BR OF is a fabulous thing.
> I assume you know all this. Everyone has different preferences and that is okay. I am just sharing why I want to enroll.



Does the cost to enroll matter to you at all? Don't forget - you're just enrolling in an exchange company. If Interval asked you for a $5000 enrollment fee, would you do it?

Marriott's "enrollment fee" is over $30K... Technically you'd be buying some DC points or a "bundle" and enrolling a resale week as a bonus, but whatever they sell you will be worth 20c on the dollar if you ever try to sell it, so you can view you upfront capital loss as an "enrollment fee".

I own several MVC resale weeks, a couple with MF/Point ratio even better than the WKORV/N OF weeks - I believe it's around 31c and 34c in my case. I might be willing to enroll them for a "reasonable" enrollment fee of say up to $1/point (which would still be 4-5 times what I paid for pre-2010 resale weeks) - but not for buying 3000 points I don't need, with a level of MFs I have no desire to pay.

I get what you can do with 8325 points. I get that the rental value of those points is quite higher than the rental value of your week. But saying it's a "fabulous thing" really should depend on the price you pay. And historically, that price has been very steep.

I'd think of it like this:

Enrollment fee: $30,000
Rental value of your week $4500-$4800.
Rental value of that week's elected points $5800.
Annual gain from enrollment $1000-$1300/year (this really applies only in years you do not actually use your week to stay, but let's call it "annual")
How long would it take you to recoup that initial enrollment cost? If it's 5 years or less, great deal. 5-8 years good to decent deal, 9-12 years mediocre to less-than-average deal. In this case it's more like 25-30 years!

Not that I'm a fan of Flex, but the Vistana retro deal for $10K is something I'd consider if I had a WKORV/N OF week to enroll. The MVC 3000 DC point enrollment deals, not so much...

By the way - I see you already have DC Points and can therefore rent more from others as you need them. Why not just use rental income from your WKORVN week to rent 6500-7000 points annually in years you were going to elect points? It's not quite 8325 points, but you're also not spending $30K+ on a product you may not necessarily even need more of.


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## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> Does the cost to enroll matter to you at all? Don't forget - you're just enrolling in an exchange company. If Interval asked you for a $5000 enrollment fee, would you do it?
> 
> Marriott's "enrollment fee" is over $30K... Technically you'd be buying some DC points or a "bundle" and enrolling a resale week as a bonus, but whatever they sell you will be worth 20c on the dollar if you ever try to sell it, so you can view you upfront capital loss as an "enrollment fee".
> 
> I own several MVC resale weeks, a couple with MF/Point ratio even better than the WKORV/N OF weeks - I believe it's around 31c and 34c in my case. I might be willing to enroll them for a "reasonable" enrollment fee of say up to $1/point (which would still be 4-5 times what I paid for pre-2010 resale weeks) - but not for buying 3000 points I don't need, with a level of MFs I have no desire to pay.
> 
> I get what you can do with 8325 points. I get that the rental value of those points is quite higher than the rental value of your week. But saying it's a "fabulous thing" really should depend on the price you pay. And historically, that price has been very steep.
> 
> I'd think of it like this:
> 
> Enrollment fee: $30,000
> Rental value of your week $4500-$4800.
> Rental value of your points $5800.
> Annual gain from enrollment $1000-$1300/year
> How long would it take you to recoup that initial enrollment cost? If it's 5 years or less, great deal. 5-8 years good to decent deal, 9-12 years mediocre to less-than-average deal. In this case it's more like 25-30 years!
> 
> Not that I'm a fan of Flex, but the Vistana retro deal for $10K is something I'd consider if I had a WKORV/N OF week to enroll. The MVC 3000 DC point enrollment deals, not so much...
> 
> By the way - I see you already have DC Points and can therefore rent more from others as you need them. Why not just use rental income from your WKORVN week to rent 6500-7000 points annually in years you were going to elect points? It's not quite 8325 points, but you're also not spending $30K+ on a product you may not necessarily even need more of.



Thank you for all your good input. All great points.


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## remowidget

TravelTime said:


> A question I should know the answer to: Is the VSN Membership Fee that’s on my statement that same thing as Club Dues? I get charged that every year on an EOY week. Now that seems ridiculous to me since I only own one week that is billed over 2 years. Why am I charged 2x for one week? Why don’t they charge me half of the VSN Membership Fee every year just like I pay half of the rest of the fees every year? Or am I confused again!



I was told today that an every other year owner can use half of their Staroptions every year because they paid the maintenance for half that year. It was a sales lady, but....


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## VacationForever

remowidget said:


> I was told today that an every other year owner can use half of their Staroptions every year because they paid the maintenance for half that year. It was a sales lady, but....


The only way you can do so is to you bank your SOs.  Sales lady is only a sales lady...


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## remowidget

I found in an old thread you said:



dioxide45 said:


> The mandatory provision is written in to the underlying CC&R documents for the resort... On the Resale Information Sheet (estoppel), Vistana actually mentions "Voluntary Resorts", however for mandatory they reference them as "Club Resorts".



What do the CC&R documents actually say in the mandatory provision.


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## DanCali

remowidget said:


> What do the CC&R documents actually say in the mandatory provision.




*Membership.*_ Membership in the Club is a condition of ownership of each Club Resort VOI pursuant to the terms of a Club Resort Affiliation Agreement, and is required of all purchasers of Club Resort VOIs. On recording of a deed or a memorandum of contract for deed to a Club Resort VOI, the Club Member is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Club. Pursuant to a Network Affiliation Agreement between Club Operator and Network Operator, a Club Member also is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Network. Membership in the Network is not
an appurtenance to VOIs, and automatically terminates if such Club Member’s Home Resort ceases to be a Network Resort._


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## remowidget

DanCali said:


> *Membership.*_ Membership in the Club is a condition of ownership of each Club Resort VOI pursuant to the terms of a Club Resort Affiliation Agreement, and is required of all purchasers of Club Resort VOIs. On recording of a deed or a memorandum of contract for deed to a Club Resort VOI, the Club Member is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Club. Pursuant to a Network Affiliation Agreement between Club Operator and Network Operator, a Club Member also is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Network. Membership in the Network is not
> an appurtenance to VOIs, and automatically terminates if such Club Member’s Home Resort ceases to be a Network Resort._


Thanks,

I see now why some people think Mandatory will be able to trade into DP. If that is on the deed, how can that ownership be excluded?


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## Eric B

remowidget said:


> Thanks,
> 
> I see now why some people think Mandatory will be able to trade into DP. If that is on the deed, how can that ownership be excluded?



The Network referred to in the rules (it's not on the deed) is the VSN.  If the DP replaces the VSN, that would be true.  It could be that the DP is added as another benefit that supplements the VSN and they haven't released any rules or guidelines that lay out how it will work.  The Network Operator does have the authority to revise the rules, too, but that can cause problems for them reputation-wise and with respect to good will if they are too heavy handed.  We'll see where it winds up this summer; I keep checking for updates to the VSN rules to see if anything is there yet.


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## rickandcindy23

I have always wanted to enroll in DC but not with Westin oceanfront.  We bought those two weeks with Rick's inheritance from his stepmom.  

We travel a lot, A LOT.  We are already at 11 weeks as of tomorrow.  We have another three weeks later May-June on Kauai.  We are not home nearly as much as I thought we would be after Rick retired.  I kind of wish we would have purchased a large townhouse so we could travel more in summer.  Our yard is huge and requires a lot of work to upkeep.  I wish it didn't.


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## timsi

Eric B said:


> The Network referred to in the rules (it's not on the deed) is the VSN.  If the DP replaces the VSN, that would be true.  It could be that the DP is added as another benefit that supplements the VSN and they haven't released any rules or guidelines that lay out how it will work.  The Network Operator does have the authority to revise the rules, too, but that can cause problems for them reputation-wise and with respect to good will if they are too heavy handed.  We'll see where it winds up this summer; I keep checking for updates to the VSN rules to see if anything is there yet.


The sales reps probably hate the idea of mandatory resorts but at a high level I do not see the big issue if they allow the mandatory resale owners to trade in DP. It would simplify the administration and the additional inventory should be welcome since the resorts are in demand (except for SVV Bella and Key West).

According to Advantage Vacation these are mandatory: Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resorts Villas, Lahaina, Maui

Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resorts Villas North, Lahaina, Maui

Westin Kierland Villas, Scottsdale, Arizona

Westin St. John Villas (Hillside Phase), St. John, US Virgin Islands

Sheraton Vistana Villages (Bella and Key West Phases), Orlando, Florida

Harborside Resort at Atlantis (Phases I and II), Paradise Island, Bahamas


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## remowidget

timsi said:


> It would simplify the administration


In today's computer driven world I doubt administration even enters the thoughts of the decision makers. The programers should be able to easily do anything requested.


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## remowidget

rickandcindy23 said:


> I have always wanted to enroll in DC but not with Westin oceanfront.  We bought those two weeks with Rick's inheritance from his stepmom.
> 
> We travel a lot, A LOT.  We are already at 11 weeks as of tomorrow.  We have another three weeks later May-June on Kauai.  We are not home nearly as much as I thought we would be after Rick retired.  I kind of wish we would have purchased a large townhouse so we could travel more in summer.  Our yard is huge and requires a lot of work to upkeep.  I wish it didn't.


Sell it. I think the market is still pretty hot, but with the interest rate increases it will probably cool down. If we didn't have dogs, we would sell ours and move into an apartment and buy or build later.


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## timsi

remowidget said:


> In today's computer driven world I doubt administration even enters the thoughts of the decision makers. The programers should be able to easily do anything requested.


You have a good point but the mess with the VSN booking system shows it may not be as easy as it should be, complexity can lead to lots of errors.


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## DavidnRobin

timsi said:


> The sales reps probably hate the idea of mandatory resorts but at a high level I do not see the big issue if they allow the mandatory resale owners to trade in DP. It would simplify the administration and the additional inventory should be welcome since the resorts are in demand (except for SVV Bella and Key West).
> 
> According to Advantage Vacation these are mandatory: Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resorts Villas, Lahaina, Maui
> 
> Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resorts Villas North, Lahaina, Maui
> 
> Westin Kierland Villas, Scottsdale, Arizona
> 
> Westin St. John Villas (Hillside Phase), St. John, US Virgin Islands
> 
> Sheraton Vistana Villages (Bella and Key West Phases), Orlando, Florida
> 
> Harborside Resort at Atlantis (Phases I and II), Paradise Island, Bahamas



Wow! We had no idea!  


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## kozykritter

I understand the wishful thinking aspect but it seems like a stretch to think of the ability to convert your ownership to DP as an expansion of the existing Network (VSN) and therefore covered by these terms. By its very nature this DP conversion feature is more aligned with the ability to convert your ownership to Bonvoy points. Both of these features require you to give up ownership usage in VSN in order to receive points in an external system (not the VSN). This is different than II where you are essentially swapping weeks instead of transforming what you own into another currency.

It seems logical to me that Vistana/Marriott would limit the DP conversion feature in the same way it limits the Bonvoy feature, meaning only as a perk for developer/retro'd ownership. Denise's contact said as much when he told us that if you are entitled to convert to bonvoy points, you'll have access to this new feature as well


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## CPNY

kozykritter said:


> I understand the wishful thinking aspect but it seems like a stretch to think of the ability to convert your ownership to DP as an expansion of the existing Network (VSN) and therefore covered by these terms. By its very nature this DP conversion feature is more aligned with the ability to convert your ownership to Bonvoy points. Both of these features require you to give up ownership usage in order to receive points in an external system (not the VSN). This is different than II where you are essentially swapping weeks instead of transforming what you own into another currency.
> 
> It seems logical to me that Vistana/Marriott would limit the DP conversion feature in the same way it limits the Bonvoy feature, meaning only as a perk for developer/retro'd ownership.


for years reps used the eligibility to convert to bonvoy points as a sales tactic to try to get resale owners to retro a unit and It rarely worked. I would think that the marketing team would be a driving force in keeping mandatory resale owners from being eligible to convert to DC points. I expect a huge marketing campaign targeting all owners with unenrolled weeks on the vistana and Marriott side. Watch for the limited time enrollment deals come through. Getting owners to Buy a small points package in order to enroll a resale is going to be a money maker for a lot of reps. Let’s not forget the lies they will spin to already eligible owners, they will make up stories about how that owner needs to buy a minimum points package so they can convert their already eligible week. Sales reps/MVW are going to make some money in the next few years.


----------



## jabberwocky

kozykritter said:


> I understand the wishful thinking aspect but it seems like a stretch to think of the ability to convert your ownership to DP as an expansion of the existing Network (VSN) and therefore covered by these terms. By its very nature this DP conversion feature is more aligned with the ability to convert your ownership to Bonvoy points. Both of these features require you to give up ownership usage in VSN in order to receive points in an external system (not the VSN). This is different than II where you are essentially swapping weeks instead of transforming what you own into another currency.
> 
> It seems logical to me that Vistana/Marriott would limit the DP conversion feature in the same way it limits the Bonvoy feature, meaning only as a perk for developer/retro'd ownership.


I can see it going either way.  

If they make DP conversion a part of VSN, then resale mandatory would likely get this feature as well (just as the II corp membership is included in VSN).  There is a big difference between DP and Bonvoy point conversion.  With Bonvoy, MVC will have to go out and buy the points from the hotel side - it is a commercial transaction with an external entity.  With a DP conversion, MVC controls the DC trust and exchange system - so everything is done "in-house" and there isn't any real cost incurred for the conversion.


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> I can see it going either way.
> 
> If they make DP conversion a part of VSN, then resale mandatory would likely get this feature as well (just as the II corp membership is included in VSN).  There is a big difference between DP and Bonvoy point conversion.  With Bonvoy, MVC will have to go out and buy the points from the hotel side - it is a commercial transaction with an external entity.  With a DP conversion, MVC controls the DC trust and exchange system - so everything is done "in-house" and there isn't any real cost incurred for the conversion.


I see what you're saying. Like CPNY I don't think this comes down to cost but rather the opportunity to create new sales from a class of owners into which they will try to put the FOMO. I'm sure Marriott is seeing this as a long play with this group as initially there could be a lot of pushback due to being excluded but over time the desire to have more options seems likely to add more sales. There's an assumption that Marriott wants to get a big chunk of inventory from Vistana into their system as quickly as they can but I doubt that they will give away the farm to do it.. it's all about the long play.


----------



## Red elephant

jabberwocky said:


> I can see it going either way.
> 
> If they make DP conversion a part of VSN, then resale mandatory would likely get this feature as well (just as the II corp membership is included in VSN).  There is a big difference between DP and Bonvoy point conversion.  With Bonvoy, MVC will have to go out and buy the points from the hotel side - it is a commercial transaction with an external entity.  With a DP conversion, MVC controls the DC trust and exchange system - so everything is done "in-house" and there isn't any real cost incurred for the conversion.


This is wishful thinking but there is always some small hope.


----------



## Red elephant

kozykritter said:


> I see what you're saying. Like CPNY I don't think this comes down to cost but rather the opportunity to create new sales from a class of owners into which they will try to put the FOMO. I'm sure Marriott is seeing this as a long play with this group as initially there could be a lot of pushback due to being excluded but over time the desire to have more options seems likely to add more sales. There's an assumption that Marriott wants to get a big chunk of inventory from Vistana into their system as quickly as they can but I doubt that they will give away the farm to do it.. it's all about the long play.


Not only that but resale ownership is a very small population that can just be left to their own devices  in SVN and interval.  They are not the likely owners to buy developer even to enroll .


----------



## CPNY

Red elephant said:


> Not only that but resale ownership is a very small population that can just be left to their own devices  in SVN and interval.  They are not the likely owners to buy developer even to enroll .


That’s not true, many will buy developer to enroll. Even if they won’t, it is still a carrot to dangle. You’ll be surprised how many resale owners may bite the bullet and buy a minimum point package. The DC program offers excellent choices in usage of an ownership. While I love the VSN, I also would rather 13 or 12 month booking window. The ability to rent more points or rent out points is a huge benefit. While the handful of resorts that appeal to me are in the VSN, I cannot deny the DC exchange is a great product.


----------



## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> That’s not true, many will buy developer to enroll. Even if they won’t, it is still a carrot to dangle. You’ll be surprised how many resale owners may bite the bullet and buy a minimum point package. The DC program offers excellent choices in usage of an ownership. While I love the VSN, I also would rather 13 or 12 month booking window. The ability to rent more points or rent out points is a huge benefit. While the handful of resorts that appeal to me are in the VSN, I cannot deny the DC exchange is a great product.


Well then more reason for Marriott not to offer free enrollment to resale ownership .


----------



## DanCali

kozykritter said:


> I see what you're saying. Like CPNY I don't think this comes down to cost but rather the opportunity to create new sales from a class of owners into which they will try to put the FOMO. I'm sure Marriott is seeing this as a long play with this group as initially there could be a lot of pushback due to being excluded but over time the desire to have more options seems likely to add more sales. There's an assumption that Marriott wants to get a big chunk of inventory from Vistana into their system as quickly as they can but I doubt that they will give away the farm to do it.. it's all about the long play.



This is all about sales opportunities. And the way to sell this is access to 60+ new resorts, flexibility in usage, and creating fear that what you have now will go away.

But all that has nothing to do with taking inventory from VSN into the DC. They can sell the DC to existing MVC and VSN owners even if they don't have a single Vistana week in the DC inventory. The point is that, once this is launched, they can legitimately advertise that you can find Vistana weeks in the DC exchange (which would be true - there will be VSN weeks there if owners elect DC points), they can say that what you have now will/can go away (which is true if most VSN owners went the DC exchange route) and they can say a lot of other things that would technically be true if certain conditions materialized. But there is no reason to grandfather weeks unnecessarily (from their perspective) just to get inventory. Likewise, there is no need to artificially move any VSN inventory into the DC because if you don't find VSN weeks in there you have no idea why... Did they get picked up by another owner? Did that inventory never exist? Maybe someone else had those dates on a waitlist? Lack of inventory is actually another selling opportunity - "buy more points and then you can book it because you will have a higher Elite status!"

VSN inventory may get impacted over time but I would attribute that to owner behavior rather than MVC playing tricks on owners. They don't have much to gain from that.


----------



## rcv82

jabberwocky said:


> I can see it going either way.
> 
> With Bonvoy, MVC will have to go out and buy the points from the hotel side - it is a commercial transaction with an external entity.



When you convert to Bonvoy points, doesn’t the hotel side get use of your time for booking as a hotel room? If true, as they have devalued the Bonvoy points this becomes more profitable to the hotel side.

Like many of the other benefits that come with a developer purchase or retro, I don’t think they cost Vistana/MVC anything, rather limiting them from resales just provides an incentive to purchase from the developer. 


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## rcv82

DanCali said:


> *Membership.*_ Membership in the Club is a condition of ownership of each Club Resort VOI pursuant to the terms of a Club Resort Affiliation Agreement, and is required of all purchasers of Club Resort VOIs. On recording of a deed or a memorandum of contract for deed to a Club Resort VOI, the Club Member is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Club. Pursuant to a Network Affiliation Agreement between Club Operator and Network Operator, a Club Member also is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Network. Membership in the Network is not
> an appurtenance to VOIs, and automatically terminates if such Club Member’s Home Resort ceases to be a Network Resort._



I guess I read this different than many of you. I read it as requiring you as an owner to be in the club/network and pay dues accordingly if it exists. But it seems to me it gives lots of legal room for the resort to change any club/network affiliation. I hope they won’t. But I think they could. Just my read. 


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----------



## TravelTime

rickandcindy23 said:


> I have always wanted to enroll in DC but not with Westin oceanfront.  We bought those two weeks with Rick's inheritance from his stepmom.
> 
> We travel a lot, A LOT.  We are already at 11 weeks as of tomorrow.  We have another three weeks later May-June on Kauai.  We are not home nearly as much as I thought we would be after Rick retired.  I kind of wish we would have purchased a large townhouse so we could travel more in summer.  Our yard is huge and requires a lot of work to upkeep.  I wish it didn't.



What keeps you from seLing some timeshares and starting to spend more time at home?


----------



## TravelTime

There are so many weeks available on the resale market so I do not see that they need to give away free enrollment to Vistana owners when they can re-purchase weeks very inexpensively for little to nothing. Even the expensive Maui weeks are “pennies” (relatively speaking) to re-purchase compared to what they cost to book in DPs. I have noticed a huge amount of pending sales for Marriott and Vistana on Redweek. I do not see many pending sales for Hilton or Hyatt, for example. Could Marriott be buying back aggressively to stock the trust?

See this link about what @JIMinNC posted about MVC’s strategy.









						A Few Tidbits from Marriott Vacations Worldwide 1Q22 Earnings Call
					

There were a few interesting tidbits that TUGgers may find interesting from Marriott Vacations Worldwide CEO Steve Weisz, President John Geller, and CFO Tony Terry during their 1Q2022 Earnings Call today:  1) On the new combined product offering: "At the end of March, we began pre-marketing our...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## VacationForever

DanCali said:


> This is all about sales opportunities. And the way to sell this is access to 60+ new resorts, flexibility in usage, and creating fear that what you have now will go away.
> 
> But all that has nothing to do with taking inventory from VSN into the DC. They can sell the DC to existing MVC and VSN owners even if they don't have a single Vistana week in the DC inventory. The point is that, once this is launched, they can legitimately advertise that you can find Vistana weeks in the DC exchange (which would be true - there will be VSN weeks there if owners elect DC points), they can say that what you have now will/can go away (which is true if most VSN owners went the DC exchange route) and they can say a lot of other things that would technically be true if certain conditions materialized. But there is no reason to grandfather weeks unnecessarily (from their perspective) just to get inventory. Likewise, there is no need to artificially move any VSN inventory into the DC because if you don't find VSN weeks in there you have no idea why... Did they get picked up by another owner? Did that inventory never exist? Maybe someone else had those dates on a waitlist? Lack of inventory is actually another selling opportunity - "buy more points and then you can book it because you will have a higher Elite status!"
> 
> VSN inventory may get impacted over time but I would attribute that to owner behavior rather than MVC playing tricks on owners. They don't have much to gain from that.


They will have quite a bit of inventory from Flex even when owners do not elect DC points.


----------



## jabberwocky

rcv82 said:


> When you convert to Bonvoy points, doesn’t the hotel side get use of your time for booking as a hotel room? If true, as they have devalued the Bonvoy points this becomes more profitable to the hotel side.


I believe that MVC makes rooms available through the hotel side when there is a conversion, but I believe the timeshare side retains most of the revenue and give the hotel side a commission when rented. I know with defaulted weeks they will rent them out through the hotel website, MVC keeps the revenue and pays the association for the MF. 

 I’m pretty sure the Bonvoy points are purchased from the hotel side as this is a common commercial arrangement (and where a lot of rewards programs make their money - think airlines and credit card reward programs).

For those who have purchased from the developer you know that you get certificates to buy a large block of Bonvoy points at a “discount” (used to be a good deal before repeated devaluations). You aren’t buying those points directly from Marriott (hotel side) - you are buying them from MVC who then deposits them into your Bonvoy account. MVC in turn purchases the points from Marriott.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> I know with defaulted weeks they will rent them out through the hotel website, MVC keeps the revenue and pays the association for the MF.


I don't think MVC pays the association the MF in this scenario. Thus why bad debt is passed on to other owners. When weeks go unreserved, usually at the 75 day mark, MVC can take control of that inventory and do with it whatever they wish. Any revenue they make from it is 100% profit after paying any fees associated with listing and renting on Marriott.com. Either the inventory was from defaulted ownerships or owners who paid their fees but didn't use their week.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think MVC pays the association the MF in this scenario. Thus why bad debt is passed on to other owners. When weeks go unreserved, usually at the 75 day mark, MVC can take control of that inventory and do with it whatever they wish. Any revenue they make from it is 100% profit after paying any fees associated with listing and renting on Marriott.com. Either the inventory was from defaulted ownerships or owners who paid their fees but didn't use their week.


Okay. Maybe I read that wrong - so you’re saying that if the week gets rented out on a defaulted unit the association picks up the costs and Marriott keeps all the revenue from the rental?  I thought MVC would pay MF for the weeks that they rented out successfully but if it isn’t then the association is left holding the bag and passes the bad debt costs on to others? (Recognizing that it is usually lower season weeks that won’t rent for above their MF).


----------



## robertk2012

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think MVC pays the association the MF in this scenario. Thus why bad debt is passed on to other owners. When weeks go unreserved, usually at the 75 day mark, MVC can take control of that inventory and do with it whatever they wish. Any revenue they make from it is 100% profit after paying any fees associated with listing and renting on Marriott.com. Either the inventory was from defaulted ownerships or owners who paid their fees but didn't use their week.



Why is that even legal?


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## dioxide45

robertk2012 said:


> Why is that even legal?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because the developer wrote the rules when they created the resort and the resort CC&Rs.


----------



## DanCali

robertk2012 said:


> Why is that even legal?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Because they made it legal - this is from the "Reservation Rules"

*Developer and Club Operator Reservations.*_ The reservation rules may create one or more Reservation Periods during which the Developer and/or the Club Operator may reserve any Use Period in a Club Unit that nobody else has reserved and that no other persons have the exclusive right to reserve. This means the Owners and Other Club Members may have to compete with the Developer and/or the Club Operator for a reservation. This Reservation Period may not start more than sixty (60) days before the Check-in-Day of a Use Period. It may overlap with other Home Resort or Club Reservation Periods._


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Okay. Maybe I read that wrong - so you’re saying that if the week gets rented out on a defaulted unit the association picks up the costs and Marriott keeps all the revenue from the rental?  I thought MVC would pay MF for the weeks that they rented out successfully but if it isn’t then the association is left holding the bag and passes the bad debt costs on to others? (Recognizing that it is usually lower season weeks that won’t rent for above their MF).


That is my understanding. The only time that MVC reimburses the HOAs for defaulted fees is when they have setup a buyback program for taking back foreclosed inventory. In the cases where the HOA forecloses on a week, MVC will buy the week back and reimburse the HOA for legal fees and past due fees. MVC is then free to resell that inveontry. Usually by conveying it to the trust and selling the points. Not all resort HOAs have foreclosure buyback programs in place with MVC. MVC also suspended most of these programs when the pandemic hit, though they may have restarted some of them by now.


----------



## robertk2012

DanCali said:


> Because they made it legal - this is from the "Reservation Rules"
> 
> *Developer and Club Operator Reservations.*_ The reservation rules may create one or more Reservation Periods during which the Developer and/or the Club Operator may reserve any Use Period in a Club Unit that nobody else has reserved and that no other persons have the exclusive right to reserve. This means the Owners and Other Club Members may have to compete with the Developer and/or the Club Operator for a reservation. This Reservation Period may not start more than sixty (60) days before the Check-in-Day of a Use Period. It may overlap with other Home Resort or Club Reservation Periods._



That doesn’t say they don’t pay for it


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----------



## dioxide45

robertk2012 said:


> That doesn’t say they don’t pay for it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But it doesn't say they do and they aren't under any obligation to do so. A company looking to maximize profit is certainly going to take all the free inventory they can. Much of it may not even rent or rent for less than the fees. They would be losing money if they reimbursed the resort for lost fees. We have "bad debt" listed on our MF budgets for a reason.


----------



## DanCali

robertk2012 said:


> That doesn’t say they don’t pay for it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





dioxide45 said:


> But it doesn't say they do and they aren't under any obligation to do so. A company looking to maximize profit is certainly going to take all the free inventory they can. Much of it may not even rent or rent for less than the fees. They would be losing money if they reimbursed the resort for lost fees. We have "bad debt" listed on our MF budgets for a reason.




He beat me to it again...


----------



## Mowogo

TravelTime said:


> There are so many weeks available on the resale market so I do not see that they need to give away free enrollment to Vistana owners when they can re-purchase weeks very inexpensively for little to nothing. Even the expensive Maui weeks are “pennies” (relatively speaking) to re-purchase compared to what they cost to book in DPs. I have noticed a huge amount of pending sales for Marriott and Vistana on Redweek. I do not see many pending sales for Hilton or Hyatt, for example. Could Marriott be buying back aggressively to stock the trust?
> 
> See this link about what @JIMinNC posted about MVC’s strategy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Few Tidbits from Marriott Vacations Worldwide 1Q22 Earnings Call
> 
> 
> There were a few interesting tidbits that TUGgers may find interesting from Marriott Vacations Worldwide CEO Steve Weisz, President John Geller, and CFO Tony Terry during their 1Q2022 Earnings Call today:  1) On the new combined product offering: "At the end of March, we began pre-marketing our...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com


Marriott seems to be relatively neutral as far as how the transition affects resales.  With the Hilton points adjustment I think a lot of educated resale owners are letting things work through the system before jumping back in.  In addition Hilton recently added language that has the potential for all resales since April to start losing core HGVC benefits.


----------



## rickandcindy23

TravelTime said:


> What keeps you from seLing some timeshares and starting to spend more time at home?


We are retired, we travel because that was always the goal.  We hold onto our house because it's where our kids grew up.  But I am leaning toward a townhouse, so we can travel as much as we want and not worry about the yard.  The yard is the only thing we worry about.


----------



## rcv82

rickandcindy23 said:


> We are retired, we travel because that was always the goal. We hold onto our house because it's where our kids grew up. But I am leaning toward a townhouse, so we can travel as much as we want and not worry about the yard. The yard is the only thing we worry about.



We have a fairly large townhouse now, and it is wonderful for travel. We can basically just close the door and leave. We are in the process of getting a house built. I’m going to try and keep it as low of maintenance yard as I can, but it will still be not as easy as the townhouse to leave for an extended trip. 


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## TravelTime

We have a very large home on some acreage. It is just as easy to me as a smaller home or townhouse. We used to live in a smaller home and we also used to have a townhouse. Our bigger house actually stays cleaner. Smaller spaces seem to gather more dust and pet hair. Or maybe it is just more obvious since it is the same amount of pet hair in a smaller space. We have someone who comes every 2 weeks to take care of the landscaping and someone to clean the house. We can lock and leave. Our biggest issue is finding a pet sitter. I do not see why having a townhouse is any easier. Just curious why others say that?


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## DanCali

I've always wondered what you do with mail when you travel 20-30 weeks a year? Do you forward it? Do you hold it? I never had too much trust in USPS to get these things right...


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## Mulege

rickandcindy23 said:


> We are retired, we travel because that was always the goal.  We hold onto our house because it's where our kids grew up.  But I am leaning toward a townhouse, so we can travel as much as we want and not worry about the yard.  The yard is the only thing we worry about.



Off forum topic. Moderator remove???


----------



## pchung6

DanCali said:


> I've always wondered what you do with mail when you travel 20-30 weeks a year? Do you forward it? Do you hold it? I never had too much trust in USPS to get these things right...


I usually ask my nice neighbor to collect my mails and put in the drawer near the main door. Then I have my relatives come and check these mails like a month. For the yard, I have a gardener comes twice a month.


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> I've always wondered what you do with mail when you travel 20-30 weeks a year? Do you forward it? Do you hold it? I never had too much trust in USPS to get these things right...


When we lived in Ohio, we would put it on hold and pick it up when we returned. We started to do the same after we moved to Florida but after we returned one time we never received the mail that was held. Who knows where it went. Now we don't hold it, we just let them keep stuffing it in the box and pick it up when we return. There will often be days go by that I don't even bother to get the mail when we are at home. Informed Delivery tells me if anything important is coming. Which also tells us that someone is stealing our Disney AP Passholder Magnets. We can see them in USPS informed delivery, but they never hit our mailbox.


----------



## slip

TravelTime said:


> We have a very large home on some acreage. It is just as easy to me as a smaller home or townhouse. We used to live in a smaller home and we also used to have a townhouse. Our bigger house actually stays cleaner. Smaller spaces seem to gather more dust and pet hair. Or maybe it is just more obvious since it is the same amount of pet hair in a smaller space. We have someone who comes every 2 weeks to take care of the landscaping and someone to clean the house. We can lock and leave. Our biggest issue is finding a pet sitter. I do not see why having a townhouse is any easier. Just curious why others say that?



If you already have someone coming in and doing yard work then it would be just as easy as a townhouse.  But if you do that work yourself, you either have to find a friend or pay someone.  Most businesses charge a lot when you are not on their rotation. If you can even find someone. Snow removal is the same way. I never wanted to bother friends with that stuff.

Now that we are in a condo, we just lock the door and leave. Yardwork is all done for us. I believe it's the same with most townhouses.


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## VacationForever

Regarding mail, we try to have all bills and statements be paperless.  If we are gone for under 30 days, we simply do a hold mail and deliver to us on the last day of hold mail.  When we used to live in a condo (2nd home) where we were away for 3 to 4 months at a time, we gave our keys to our neighbors to bring in mail and flush our toilets.


----------



## TravelTime

slip said:


> If you already have someone coming in and doing yard work then it would be just as easy as a townhouse.  But if you do that work yourself, you either have to find a friend or pay someone.  Most businesses charge a lot when you are not on their rotation. If you can even find someone. Snow removal is the same way. I never wanted to bother friends with that stuff.
> 
> Now that we are in a condo, we just lock the door and leave. Yardwork is all done for us. I believe it's the same with most townhouses.



Yes basically it is just extra yard work in a home vs a condo or townhouse. If you own a home, you really need someone to take care of the yard anyway. It is relatively inexpensive and if you travel a lot, people could build it into the budget. If you can afford 20+ weeks of travel a year, you can probably afford at least a mow and blow if not more.


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## Tucsonadventurer

DanCali said:


> I've always wondered what you do with mail when you travel 20-30 weeks a year? Do you forward it? Do you hold it? I never had too much trust in USPS to get these things right...


We got a PO box at a UPS store down the street.


----------



## slip

TravelTime said:


> Yes basically it is just extra yard work in a home vs a condo or townhouse. If you own a home, you really need someone to take care of the yard anyway. It is relatively inexpensive and if you travel a lot, people could build it into the budget. If you can afford 20+ weeks of travel a year, you can probably afford at least a mow and blow if not more.



I had 2 acres to mow In Wisconsin and my driveway was 100 yards long. It would have cost a fortune to have someone do it. If you could even find someone. I always did all the yardwork in my homes. I honestly didn't know anyone who paid someone to do their yard work.  Heck, for decades I did mine and my father's.  Maybe it's just a small town Midwest thing.

I rent most of my weeks so I didn't travel 20 weeks. I only had 5 weeks of vacation and my last 10 years in Wisconsin I did travel all 5 weeks but only 3 trips, two 2 week trips and one 1 weeks trip.


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## Eric B

Will Marriott do my yard work while I'm vacationing at a Vistana resort as part of the integration?  I hadn't seen anything on that possibility yet....


----------



## vacationtime1

Eric B said:


> Will Marriott do my yard work while I'm vacationing at a Vistana resort as part of the integration?  I hadn't seen anything on that possibility yet....


Buy more points!


----------



## iowaguy09

Eric B said:


> Will Marriott do my yard work while I'm vacationing at a Vistana resort as part of the integration?  I hadn't seen anything on that possibility yet....


If they did they would probably pitch it as buying into a 401-L (L for lawncare)!


----------



## jabberwocky

iowaguy09 said:


> If they did they would probably pitch it as buying into a 401-L (L for lawncare)!


We can already exchange StarOptions for cruises and resort credit.  Maybe they will now allow you to exchange for lawn care and housekeeping??


----------



## SueDonJ

Eric B said:


> Will Marriott do my yard work while I'm vacationing at a Vistana resort as part of the integration?  I hadn't seen anything on that possibility yet....


That's another thing that disappeared with the pandemic and there's been no word when it might return.


----------



## DavidnRobin

This thread has officially jumped the shark…


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## rickandcindy23

rcv82 said:


> We have a fairly large townhouse now, and it is wonderful for travel. We can basically just close the door and leave. We are in the process of getting a house built. I’m going to try and keep it as low of maintenance yard as I can, but it will still be not as easy as the townhouse to leave for an extended trip.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right!  You are in Colorado as well.  We are keeping our house partly because it's paid off and we are fixing the yard to be easier to maintain.  The neighbor boy will mow while we are on Kauai for nearly 3 weeks.  That works for now.  But artificial grass may be in our future.  Rick has considered it a long time, and it may be one answer.  We have .4 of an acre.  The yard is huge.  I think we should rubber bark mulch the entire back 1/2, but he is against that idea.  He wants to put in a pond with a filter that will be good enough to keep it clean (but no fish).


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## Bird01

May I ask where the moderator is? This thread has gone off the grid!!


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## robertk2012

Bird01 said:


> May I ask where the moderator is? This thread has gone off the grid!!



This whole thread is off the grid….sales BS and conjecture 


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## jabberwocky

DavidnRobin said:


> This thread has officially jumped the shark…


I think that happened around 40 pages or so ago...


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## rickandcindy23

No one seems to have any new information for us on the merger, and I guess there isn't much to say anymore about Vistana/ Marriott.  I guess we did go off on a tangent for a bit.


----------



## SueDonJ

Bird01 said:


> May I ask where the moderator is? This thread has gone off the grid!!


We're here reading. It's a speculation thread; it ebbs and flows with whatever new info might come from Marriott's and/or Vistana's sales reps and other sources. During the interims there might be some silliness, which I understand some people post just for fun and others just to keep the thread handy so that as new info surfaces, new duplicate speculation threads aren't opened.

When the details of the integration are finally released and there is official information that can be relied upon and dissected for its actual impact on our ownerships, this speculation thread will be closed.


----------



## Mulege

SueDonJ said:


> We're here reading. It's a speculation thread; it ebbs and flows with whatever new info might come from Marriott's and/or Vistana's sales reps and other sources. During the interims there might be some silliness, which I understand some people post just for fun and others just to keep the thread handy so that as new info surfaces, new duplicate speculation threads aren't opened.
> 
> When the details of the integration are finally released and there is official information that can be relied upon and dissected for its actual impact on our ownerships, this speculation thread will be closed.



I signed up to be notified when new postings are made because I was interested in new information. Not silliness about lawn care etc. I will stop the notifications so as not to be bothered. Not sure Denise would agree with you???


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## dioxide45

Bobw said:


> I signed up to be notified when new postings are made because I was interested in new information. Not silliness about lawn care etc. I will stop the notifications so as not to be bothered. Not sure Denise would agree with you???


I would just turn off notifications but have it setup so you are watching the thread. That way you can see if there are at least new posts when you are looking at your Watched Threads on the forum. I am not sure it is about who agrees or disagrees. This is just how some threads go. No harm in it.


----------



## robertk2012

Bobw said:


> I signed up to be notified when new postings are made because I was interested in new information. Not silliness about lawn care etc. I will stop the notifications so as not to be bothered. Not sure Denise would agree with you???



It is great that you can stop the notifications!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SandyPGravel

jabberwocky said:


> We can already exchange StarOptions for cruises and resort credit.  Maybe they will now allow you to exchange for lawn care and housekeeping??


& pet sitting!


----------



## sharr7

Sales reps out here selling nothing but mystery boxes since the soft launch.




Your week in Hawaii is nice but with $15k today it could be anything! It could even be a week in Hawaii!


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## rickandcindy23

Bobw said:


> I signed up to be notified when new postings are made because I was interested in new information. Not silliness about lawn care etc. I will stop the notifications so as not to be bothered. Not sure Denise would agree with you???


Sorry, we were talking about extended vacations and the issues they cause.  We should have started another thread.  That is kind of what happens sometimes.  

Nothing else to say on Vistana/ Marirott merger for now.  I sure hope we get some new information.  There are so many people saying June.  They said March and March came and went without any kind of information that was new or helpful.


----------



## TravelTime

rickandcindy23 said:


> Sorry, we were talking about extended vacations and the issues they cause.  We should have started another thread.  That is kind of what happens sometimes.
> 
> Nothing else to say on Vistana/ Marirott merger for now.  I sure hope we get some new information.  There are so many people saying June.  They said March and March came and went without any kind of information that was new or helpful.



I was not sure why people said March. Was there any signage in the resorts before March? Now there is signage and they are officially in soft launch. So this is why I believe June. I have been told June by several sales teams. I have read June on TUG. I will be surprised and disappointed if nothing is officially announced in June.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> I was not sure why people said March. Was there any signage in the resorts before March? Now there is signage and they are officially in soft launch. So this is why I believe June. I have been told June by several sales teams. I have read June on TUG. I will be surprised and disappointed if nothing is officially announced in June.


March 23rd was the date the new signage showed up at the resorts and in the sales offices.


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> March 23rd was the date the new signage showed up at the resorts and in the sales offices.



So they had a date? I did not see a date now.


----------



## rickandcindy23

dioxide45 said:


> March 23rd was the date the new signage showed up at the resorts and in the sales offices.


I was there at Westin Ka'anapali North when the sign appeared.


----------



## TravelTime

rickandcindy23 said:


> I was there at Westin Ka'anapali North when the sign appeared.



I guess they learned a lesson.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> So they had a date? I did not see a date now.


Photos from the soft launch started showing up in this thread back on page 12;








						CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
					

True, but a WKV owner can still *theoretically* use StarOptions to book in Hawaii. The big wildcard is, if they value Hawaii very high (which they will), will those Hawaii owners all take DC points and end up staving VSN of Hawaii inventory. Only time will tell. I long predicted that weeks would...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## TravelTime

The signage says the same as now but no date for a hard launch. Was there signage saying the hard launch was supposed to start in March?


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> The signage says the same as now but no date for a hard launch. Was there signage saying the hard launch was supposed to start in March?


No signage about a hard launch. The soft launch was the signage.


----------



## William Seward

I have two question
1) I have 148,100 annual Westin Nanea Ocean Villa points. Does any know what that will convert to in MVC points?
2) Has any one received any official documentation about the combined reservation system. It sound like it less then six weeks away from the hard launch. We haven’t been to a resort recently. Will in the fall


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> No signage about a hard launch. The soft launch was the signage.



I misinterpreted what you said earlier. I thought you said that the reason people were predicting a hard launch in March was because the signage said so. But I think you meant that the signage showed up in March.

My comment earlier was that I believe the hard launch will be in June because the soft launch signage is up and the sales offices are saying it is happening in June. We are hearing the same thing from different offices as well.


----------



## DanCali

William Seward said:


> I have two question
> 1) I have 148,100 annual Westin Nanea Ocean Villa points. Does any know what that will convert to in MVC points?
> 2) Has any one received any official documentation about the combined reservation system. It sound like it less then six weeks away from the hard launch. We haven’t been to a resort recently. Will in the fall




According to post 263, the conversion ratio is 23:1, so should be around 6400 DC points. That will get you a full week or more in a 2BR in high season in most places outside of Maui. 

I suspect there will no be any official documentation until the hard launch of the program, presumably later this summer. Till then it will likely be all speculation and rumors.


----------



## alexadeparis

We just got an invite to an “informational seminar” about the upcoming changes to Sheraton vis a vis the merger with Marriott in downtown Chicago June 10. It was addressed to my husband and came from Sheraton Vacation club. Which is interesting considering that we own more Westin units than Sheraton ones. I would go just to see what the spin is, but we are moving out of state next week. Did any other Chicagoan’s get a letter like this? Maybe the hard launch is June 10?


----------



## CVC

William Seward said:


> I have two question
> 1) I have 148,100 annual Westin Nanea Ocean Villa points. Does any know what that will convert to in MVC points?
> 2) Has any one received any official documentation about the combined reservation system. It sound like it less then six weeks away from the hard launch. We haven’t been to a resort recently. Will in the fall


The conversion for Nanae, we have been told, is based on if you’re ocean front or resort view. It was originally 23:1 for both but because of the disparity in price between the 2 ownerships, we were told it was tweaked (since post #263) to resort view being 23:36, which is what we own. I will wait to see what the official information is when it’s launched but this is what we were told recently.


----------



## William Seward

CVC said:


> The conversion for Nanae, we have been told, is based on if you’re ocean front or resort view. It was originally 23:1 for both but because of the disparity in price between the 2 ownerships, we were told it was tweaked (since post #263) to resort view being 23:36, which is what we own. I will wait to see what the official information is when it’s launched but this is what we were told recently.



Thanks for the information CVC. Have a different exchange rate for resort and Ocean view seem strange to me, when there is already a difference built into the point structure between Resort and Ocean view. It's kind of double dipping. I've tried reaching out to our sales person at Nanea several times via phone and email, without ever receiving a return correspondence. So I hope their some sort of communication explaining the fine details.  Thanks


----------



## DPR

New to the forum…
We received an email to set up a call with Vistana to review our portfolio prior to the merger.  They say our portfolio was flagged for special review and that we have two option to decide on. They wouldn’t say what the options are. The call is set for today.  Anyone else get this?  Hope they have answers and not trying to sell us more.


----------



## vacationtime1

DPR said:


> New to the forum…
> We received an email to set up a call with Vistana to review our portfolio prior to the merger.  They say our portfolio was flagged for special review and that we have two option to decide on. They wouldn’t say what the options are. The call is set for today.  Anyone else get this?  *Hope they have answers and not trying to sell us more.*


They will try to sell you more; that's why they set up the call.

The "answer" we all want -- and which they will not give to you either -- is exactly how the two programs will integrate (who qualifies; who gets what; what are the conversion rates).  Those are things they have not put in writing to date.


----------



## timsi

DPR said:


> New to the forum…
> We received an email to set up a call with Vistana to review our portfolio prior to the merger.  They say our portfolio was flagged for special review and that we have two option to decide on. They wouldn’t say what the options are. The call is set for today.  Anyone else get this?  Hope they have answers and not trying to sell us more.


The two options will be 
1) expensive 
2) even more expensive. 

1) is better than 2) and they will tell you why


----------



## DPR

Here is my summary from today's call with the Vistana Sales Exec.  To recap, they said our portfolio was "flagged for review" prior to the upcoming integration.  The sales person did not know why it was flagged, just that he was given a list of names to contact and provide information to.  Our call lasted an hour.
The bottom line, we own a Flex (west coast incl HI) and a 2 bdm at Desert Willows for a total of 162,000 options.  This coverts to 6,535 MCV points.  Marriott has their properties, cruises, airlines, etc all in a "trust" that provide owners access and ability to reserve.  To gain this access, you must be at "Executive" level or above which means you must have 7,000 or more points at the time of conversion which occurs in June or July of this year.  We can elect to do nothing or purchase an additional 44,000 options to gain that level, resulting in 7,800 points.  If we do nothing, then nothing changes and we can continue to use our options as before.  If we don't purchase now, then when conversion occurs, we won't have access to the additional Marriott properties (except as we currently do).  I am afraid, though, that the reverse is true, that all the Marriott owners will have access to the Westin properties and there will be greater competition for availability.  I hope this helps understand what is being said.


----------



## William Seward

Hi DPR,

I know don't shoot the messenger............... When you state "_If we don't purchase now, then when conversion occurs, we won't have access to the additional Marriott properties (except as we currently do)". _Do you think that means you won't have access to the higher point level properties? Due you your conversion point level not be adequate? Or because you didn't participate in purchasing the additional point level?


----------



## sharr7

So there's a hard cutoff value of (converted) points to have "crossover" MVC access, and yet virtually no one knows their true conversion value since it's not published anywhere, but when or if we ever learn the conversion values, it will be too late unless we happen to be over 7000? And you were flagged because you were so close to that threshold they wanted to do you a favor and let you know you have a great opportunity to give them more money. 

I'm almost certain that's not all true; maybe parts of it are? But without knowing which parts we don't really know any more. Like they're really going to not take the money from people who want to elevate past 7000 points once the calendar hits August? No way. And all those people who bought say 81k/148k flex options direct from vistana with the promise of having access to MVC are going to be told 'sorry! not quite enough DP to play!' 

The one common theme in all the sales pitches we've heard from is "you need just a little bit extra ($10k, 1000DP, get to 7000, flex options) to unlock everything, and it has to be in the next 60 days or it all goes away" which is really no different than normal but now they have this carrot to dangle with the new system. This soft launch is nothing more than a chance for their sales team to increase their commissions and MVW to boost profits. I think we've been giving them too much credit assuming they are using this time to adjust conversions and learn the system and test any new technology etc etc. I do believe they delayed the soft launch to accomplish some of those things but I bet it's been ready to launch fully since right around then but they know they can kill it with sales while people are the most confused and they hold all the information (correct or not).

Didn't plan to get flustered after another mundane report of a sales call but the lack of anything concrete after 2 months is frustrating and the fact that they've given their sales teams the green light to basically say anything, which benefits the slimiest people with the least morals the most is also just disappointing. I would advise no one to buy anything from either company until they are willing to put real publicly-available information out. The whole timeshare sales game relies on placing extreme urgency on something that should be one of the least urgent purchases any of us make.


----------



## DPR

William Seward said:


> Hi DPR,
> 
> I know don't shoot the messenger............... When you state "_If we don't purchase now, then when conversion occurs, we won't have access to the additional Marriott properties (except as we currently do)". _Do you think that means you won't have access to the higher point level properties? Due you your conversion point level not be adequate? Or because you didn't participate in purchasing the additional point level?



He said we needed to be an "Executive" level (7000 pts) or higher to use the MVC properties.  We can buy additional points later but they would be more $$$


----------



## DanCali

DPR said:


> The bottom line, we own a Flex (west coast incl HI) and a 2 bdm at Desert Willows for a total of 162,000 options.  This coverts to 6,535 MCV points.  Marriott has their properties, cruises, airlines, etc all in a "trust" that provide owners access and ability to reserve.  To gain this access, you must be at "Executive" level or above which means you must have 7,000 or more points at the time of conversion which occurs in June or July of this year.





DPR said:


> He said we needed to be an "Executive" level (7000 pts) or higher to use the MVC properties.  We can buy additional points later but they would be more $$$




Given the angle the salesperson took, it sounds like your ownership is all developer-purchased? No talk about retro and qualifying resale purchases? If so, what they said is most likely all nonsense intended to create a sense of urgency. If you bought from the developer you will most likely gain access no matter what. You will be at the "Select" level. The difference between "Select" and "Executive" is actually material enough that it would be worthwhile to consider adding points, but you can always buy 1000 resale points later on for about $6000 all-in cost.

"Executive" used to be 6500 points. For many years we resisted enrolling our pre-2010 resale weeks but when that threshold went to 7000 we did it so we would get grandfathered at Executive at the 6500 level.

Here is the difference in Elite levels:


----------



## DPR

sharr7 said:


> So there's a hard cutoff value of (converted) points to have "crossover" MVC access, and yet virtually no one knows their true conversion value since it's not published anywhere, but when or if we ever learn the conversion values, it will be too late unless we happen to be over 7000? And you were flagged because you were so close to that threshold they wanted to do you a favor and let you know you have a great opportunity to give them more money.
> 
> I'm almost certain that's not all true; maybe parts of it are? But without knowing which parts we don't really know any more. Like they're really going to not take the money from people who want to elevate past 7000 points once the calendar hits August? No way. And all those people who bought say 81k/148k flex options direct from vistana with the promise of having access to MVC are going to be told 'sorry! not quite enough DP to play!'
> 
> The one common theme in all the sales pitches we've heard from is "you need just a little bit extra ($10k, 1000DP, get to 7000, flex options) to unlock everything, and it has to be in the next 60 days or it all goes away" which is really no different than normal but now they have this carrot to dangle with the new system. This soft launch is nothing more than a chance for their sales team to increase their commissions and MVW to boost profits. I think we've been giving them too much credit assuming they are using this time to adjust conversions and learn the system and test any new technology etc etc. I do believe they delayed the soft launch to accomplish some of those things but I bet it's been ready to launch fully since right around then but they know they can kill it with sales while people are the most confused and they hold all the information (correct or not).
> 
> Didn't plan to get flustered after another mundane report of a sales call but the lack of anything concrete after 2 months is frustrating and the fact that they've given their sales teams the green light to basically say anything, which benefits the slimiest people with the least morals the most is also just disappointing. I would advise no one to buy anything from either company until they are willing to put real publicly-available information out. The whole timeshare sales game relies on placing extreme urgency on something that should be one of the least urgent purchases any of us make.



He did say that we had to buy more options, prior to the integration date, but then said they would always accept our money at any time....of course, I thought.  But he was adamant that without the Executive or higher level (7000 pts) then we would not have access to MVC properties. I asked so.... with my 6,535 pts (162,000 opt), I only get access to the current Vistana properties.  He confirmed this.  So what we were earlier told about getting access, he said we wouldn't.  And I asked him many ways to be sure I understand clearly.  This does not mean things will change....


----------



## dsmrp

DPR said:


> He said we needed to be an "Executive" level (7000 pts) or higher to use the MVC properties.  We can buy additional points later but they would be more $$$



Aren't you 3* elite with 162K options from flex and WDW? The initial info at soft launch was that Vistana elite levels would be grandfathered to MVC, e.g. 3* to Executive.
Of course nothing in writing yet, and Marriott could change the grandfathering levels.


----------



## DPR

dsmrp said:


> Aren't you 3* elite with 162K options from flex and WDW? The initial info at soft launch was that Vistana elite levels would be grandfathered to MVC, e.g. 3* to Executive.
> Of course nothing in writing yet, and Marriott could change the grandfathering levels.



yes we are but no mention of being grandfathered.  maybe they will???  This guy said he is being dribbled info each week so perhaps they are trying things out as a sounding board.  I didn't panic and buy.  I want to see how things pan out.  But I did tell him, it was my expectation when I bought, that we would have access to MVC.


----------



## daviator

> Here is my summary from today's call with the Vistana Sales Exec. To recap, they said our portfolio was "flagged for review" prior to the upcoming integration. The sales person did not know why it was flagged, just that he was given a list of names to contact and provide information to. Our call lasted an hour.
> The bottom line, we own a Flex (west coast incl HI) and a 2 bdm at Desert Willows for a total of 162,000 options. This coverts to 6,535 MCV points. Marriott has their properties, cruises, airlines, etc all in a "trust" that provide owners access and ability to reserve. To gain this access, you must be at "Executive" level or above which means you must have 7,000 or more points at the time of conversion which occurs in June or July of this year. We can elect to do nothing or purchase an additional 44,000 options to gain that level, resulting in 7,800 points. If we do nothing, then nothing changes and we can continue to use our options as before. If we don't purchase now, then when conversion occurs, we won't have access to the additional Marriott properties (except as we currently do). I am afraid, though, that the reverse is true, that all the Marriott owners will have access to the Westin properties and there will be greater competition for availability. I hope this helps understand what is being said.


I call bullshit on most of what you were told.

They seem to be telling everyone “you need to buy a little more if you want to be able to access the Marriott properties.”

I own deeded weeks plus Flex which total about 485,000 StarOptions annually (mostly in Maui) and they fed me the same line, that I wouldn’t be able to access the new program unless I added just a little more to my portfolio.  They couldn’t tell me exactly how many DPs my current ownership would net me, but it’s certainly more than double what yours will give you, and still, that won’t be sufficient unless I buy a little more.

They won’t put any of this in writing and I think it’s all just “say whatever you need to say to get the owners to give us more money.”

Until everything is on paper and cast in concrete, I wouldn’t even consider giving them more.  When you later find out that it was all lies, your sales person will be long gone or won't return your calls.


----------



## dsmrp

DPR said:


> yes we are but no mention of being grandfathered.  maybe they will???  This guy said he is being dribbled info each week so perhaps they are trying things out as a sounding board.  I didn't panic and buy.  I want to see how things pan out.  But I did tell him, it was my expectation when I bought, that we would have access to MVC.


I'm not surprised they've not mentioned grandfathering of elite levels. That would take the wind out of their sales ( pun intended). Why would anyone buy more to get to a MVC level if they could get it for free?  I am 3*, but pretty certain my units won't convert to anywhere near the minimum for Executive level.  Let's just wait and see.

I hope Marriott announces final integration policies by end of June, as I have a little trip planned in July.  Anyone know a "reasonable" salesperson at SMV ( Mountain Vista)? Please PM me. Thx.


----------



## TravelTime

Based on this thread and the 2 salespeople from different offices telling me the same thing, the only think I think I know for sure is the hard launch will happen in June and my Vistana week will be worth 8325 DPs.


----------



## Eric B

TravelTime said:


> Based on this thread and the 2 salespeople from different offices telling me the same thing, the only think I think I know for sure is the hard launch will happen in June and my Vistana week will be worth 8325 DPs.



... and that they think you absolutely need to buy something....


----------



## TravelTime

-


----------



## remowidget

Eric B said:


> ... and that they think you absolutely need to buy something....


That is how they make their living.


----------



## TravelTime

These may sound like crazy questions but here goes. What is Vistana currently? Is it simply a booking engine right now? Was it ever a stand alone company? Where does the inventory that Vistana buys back currently go? Does it turn into Flex points or something else?

I have reasons to ask these questions even though they sound pretty dumb. I got some confusing information from someone that threw everything that I thought I knew into a loop. I think/thought I knew the answers to the above questions but would like to clarify with long term Vistana owners.


----------



## remowidget

TravelTime said:


> These may sound like crazy questions but here goes. What is Vistana currently? Is it simply a booking engine right now? Was it ever a stand alone company? Where does the inventory that Vistana buys back currently go? Does it turn into Flex points or something else?
> 
> I have reasons to ask these questions even though they sound pretty dumb. I got some confusing information from someone that threw everything that I thought I knew into a loop. I think/thought I knew the answers to the above questions but would like to clarify with long term Vistana owners.



First off, I doubt anyone outside of Marriott completely knows the answer to these questions.

Vistana is currently the same as it ever was. It is a publicly traded stand alone company. It's possible that Vistana could go away and we will become MVC properties. It's also possible, Vistana will remain a publicly traded company and there will be a new club allowing trading between MVC and Vistana. I tend to think it will stay a separate company at least in the short term because I have heard so very many times that nothing will change within Vistana. Still, we won't know for sure until the change happens. Marriott has announced that they will sell a product in the future that includes Marriott, Sheraton, and Westin. This makes me think there might be a full merger down the road.

I own at Lagunamar. At the end of last year, Vistana (the developer) owned 5009 weeks. I asked the sales lady about that and she claimed that those get dropped into Staroptions at 8 months. I personally think that only weeks that they can't rent through bonvoy will drop at 8 months. She also said that all of these weeks will get dumped in Aventuras. I think they will only go into aventuras when they are needed due to sales of whatever the new product becomes. It's probably something we will never know for sure. The weeks are owned by Vistana and used as they see fit, which is probably more complicated than you'd think.


----------



## dioxide45

remowidget said:


> Vistana is currently the same as it ever was. It is a publicly traded stand alone company. It's possible that Vistana could go away and we will become MVC properties. It's also possible, Vistana will remain a publicly traded company and there will be a new club allowing trading between MVC and Vistana. I tend to think it will stay a separate company at least in the short term because I have heard so very many times that nothing will change within Vistana. Still, we won't know for sure until the change happens. Marriott has announced that they will sell a product in the future that includes Marriott, Sheraton, and Westin. This makes me think there might be a full merger down the road.


Vistana is a wholly owned subsidiary of Marriott Vacations Worldwide. It is not publicly traded. Marriott Vacations Worldwide is a publicly traded company under the ticker VAC. Marriott Vacations Worldwide owns Marriott Vacation Club. Currently, Marriott Vacation Club and Vistana operate independently very likely with separate management structures inside Marriott Vacations Worldwide. They also run two separate independant resort systems that Marriott is trying to bring together with a combined product/system. But to say Vistana is publicly traded is incorrect.

Vistana on its own hasn't been a separate company since the 1990s prior to it being acquired by Starwood to create Starwood Vacation Ownership. Starwood, the hotel company, then sold itself to Marriott International (hotel company). Just prior to doing so, it renamed the Starwood Vacation Ownership to Vistana Signature Experiences then spun it off and sold it to Interval Leisure Group, which owned a number of companies. One of which was Interval International. ILG was a publicly traded company that then later sold itself to Marriott Vacations Worldwide.


----------



## DPR

okay... an update from the sales person I spoke with.  He sends me the following email (which has little to no information) 
_I just received this update from Corporate! I wanted to share this with you. Up to this point Grandfathering was purely speculative and it could not be verified.

This is the first concreate indication that it will occur.

If this is the case, I would advise you not to unload your ownership so that you avail yourself of all the benefits and features we discussed on the “Executive Level” with Marriott._

The attachement he appended says this.... 
_Hi Team
We are getting some issues on the back end of sales that I want to clarify so you can get ahead of it on the front end.
1.  Documents we are sending currently do not reflect Executive/Presential/ Chairman's status and benefits.  You may want to cover this upfront so you don't have issues signing.  Let them know we in 'soft launch' phase and they are able to advantage of some great pricing/incentives/ grandfathering of levels during this time and that their ownership will not reflect this until we go into FULL LAUNCH (ie. flip the switch). You are able to screen share everything that is coming so this should ease their minds, but I would bring it up so it is not an issue on the back end._

So maybe grandfathering is a thing and a 3* will convert to Executive level....no holding my breath though.


----------



## daviator

DPR said:


> _ You are able to screen share everything that is coming so this should ease their minds, but I would bring it up so it is not an issue on the back end._



This made me laugh out loud.  Maybe other people are willing to take a quick glance at something a salesperson shows on their screen as proof that everything they are promising is true and will come to pass, but that would definitely not “ease MY mind.”  In my experience, they flip through those screens so fast that you barely have a chance to know what you’re looking at, and of course you don’t know who created it or how legit it is.  

And if it’s not in writing, they can change it later (as they’ve already done in some cases) and those who bought on assurances that turned out to be false have no recourse.

But on the subject of your message, we have heard here from a couple of sources indicating that existing elite owners would be grandfathered into MVC elite levels, and I share your hope that comes to pass.


----------



## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> Vistana is a wholly owned subsidiary of Marriott Vacations Worldwide. It is not publicly traded. Marriott Vacations Worldwide is a publicly traded company under the ticker VAC. Marriott Vacations Worldwide owns Marriott Vacation Club. Currently, Marriott Vacation Club and Vistana operate independently very likely with separate management structures inside Marriott Vacations Worldwide. They also run two separate independant resort systems that Marriott is trying to bring together with a combined product/system. But to say Vistana is publicly traded is incorrect.
> 
> Vistana on its own hasn't been a separate company since the 1990s prior to it being acquired by Starwood to create Starwood Vacation Ownership. Starwood, the hotel company, then sold itself to Marriott International (hotel company). Just prior to doing so, it renamed the Starwood Vacation Ownership to Vistana Signature Experiences then spun it off and sold it to Interval Leisure Group, which owned a number of companies. One of which was Interval International. ILG was a publicly traded company that then later sold itself to Marriott Vacations Worldwide.


Dohhh, definitely overstepped my knowledge there.

So, does Marriott owning ILG make all of ILG a part ot Marriott or just an investment?


----------



## daviator

remowidget said:


> Dohhh, definitely overstepped my knowledge there.
> 
> So, does Marriott owning ILG make all of ILG a part ot Marriott or just an investment?


To be clear, the “Marriott“ we are talking about here is Marriott Vacations Worldwide, or MVW, NOT Marriott Hotels and Resorts. The hotel company is completely different and financially unrelated to the timeshare company.  Both are separate public companies.

All of ILG is part of MVW, it’s essentially a division of MVW, operating quasi-independently.  Over time, you can probably expect some of ILGs business to become more entwined with MVW, but I expect they will keep it somewhat separated because they want the other timeshare companies to continue working with II.  I could even see them spinning off and divesting II to keep it independent, but I suspect there is value in retaining it but allowing it to be operated somewhat independently.

Vistana was a unit under ILG, but I expect now Vistana sits directly under MVW and ILG (and its subsidiary II) sort of sit off to the side. I’m actually not sure what other business units exist or existed within ILG but presumably they continue to operate as they had in the past.


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> Vistana was a unit under ILG, but I expect now Vistana sits directly under MVW and ILG (and its subsidiary II) sort of sit off to the side. I’m actually not sure what other business units exist or existed within ILG but presumably they continue to operate as they had in the past.


VRI Europe and VRI Americas were part of ILG. MVW sold off VRI Europe a few years ago and just a week or so ago they sold VRI Americas to Capital Resorts. ILG also came with Aqua-Aston, a hotel chain in Hawaii. They still own and manage that. I am not sure there is much else other than Hyatt Residence Club, Vistana and Interval International which MVW still retains.


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> VRI Europe and VRI Americas were part of ILG. MVW sold off VRI Europe a few years ago and just a week or so ago they sold VRI Americas to Capital Resorts. ILG also came with Aqua-Aston, a hotel chain in Hawaii. They still own and manage that. I am not sure there is much else other than Hyatt Residence Club, Vistana and Interval International which MVW still retains.


Oh I’d forgotten about Aqua-Aston, which is itself a product of the merger of two very old and (at least at one point) successful chains of mid-tier hotels in Hawaii.  Back in the 80s it seemed as if half the hotels in Waikiki were Aston-owned, and they had hotels on all the other islands too. Most are older now and some are on need of serious investment. Some have been sold off, I think, prior to MVW's purchase.

it will be interesting to see what happens with them.  I can see MVW selling the whole Aqua-Aston portfolio (to Marriott?) as it could represent a new value brand for them in Hawaii that was Hawaii-specific (I doubt anyone gets excited about staying at a Courtyard by Marriott in Honolulu.)  It doesn’t really seem to be aligned with the rest of MVWs business unless they see these properties as timeshare conversions. From my experience, many or most of them have small, modest rooms and paltry amenities and I don’t seem them as potential timeshares.  So I'd guess they are waiting for the time to be right to unload them.  But perhaps I’ll be proven wrong. 

Sorry for the slightly off-topic post.  And thanks for the info on ILG's other operations. I didn’t know about VRI.


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> Oh I’d forgotten about Aqua-Aston, which is itself a product of the merger of two very old and (at least at one point) successful chains of mid-tier hotels in Hawaii.  Back in the 80s it seemed as if half the hotels in Waikiki were Aston-owned, and they had hotels on all the other islands too. Most are older now and some are on need of serious investment. Some have been sold off, I think, prior to MVW's purchase.
> 
> it will be interesting to see what happens with them.  I can see MVW selling the whole Aqua-Aston portfolio (to Marriott?) as it could represent a new value brand for them in Hawaii that was Hawaii-specific (I doubt anyone gets excited about staying at a Courtyard by Marriott in Honolulu.)  It doesn’t really seem to be aligned with the rest of MVWs business unless they see these properties as timeshare conversions. From my experience, many or most of them have small, modest rooms and paltry amenities and I don’t seem them as potential timeshares.  So I'd guess they are waiting for the time to be right to unload them.  But perhaps I’ll be proven wrong.
> 
> Sorry for the slightly off-topic post.  And thanks for the info on ILG's other operations. I didn’t know about VRI.


You may be right about Aqua-Aston. I would think they are actively shopping that one around. Not sure it aligns with the Marriott Hotel brands, but it is a possibility if they found the right buyer. Marriott International wouldn't buy it, but perhaps some investment firm would buy the properties while Marriott International buys the brand and then licenses it out like they do with their other brands. Hard to tell, but it certainly doesn't seem to align with what MVW is trying to do in the timeshare space.


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> You may be right about Aqua-Aston. I would think they are actively shopping that one around. Not sure it aligns with the Marriott Hotel brands, but it is a possibility if they found the right buyer. Marriott International wouldn't buy it, but perhaps some investment firm would buy the properties while Marriott International buys the brand and then licenses it out like they do with their other brands. Hard to tell, but it certainly doesn't seem to align with what MVW is trying to do in the timeshare space.


I agree that Marriott seems like an unlikely buyer for Aqua-Aston. It’s a solid but not even remotely upscale brand and I can see it going to an investment group or a value hotel chain that wants a big Hawaii presence. The brands are pretty recognized in Hawaii so I guess i'd be surprised to them bought and rebranded. But stranger things have happened.

One of their properties sits right next to WKORV.  They do have some fantastic real estate, assuming they own the real estate (which may not be the case) owing to their long history.


----------



## TSKing

daviator said:


> This made me laugh out loud.  Maybe other people are willing to take a quick glance at something a salesperson shows on their screen as proof that everything they are promising is true and will come to pass, but that would definitely not “ease MY mind.”  In my experience, they flip through those screens so fast that you barely have a chance to know what you’re looking at, and of course you don’t know who created it or how legit it is.
> 
> And if it’s not in writing, they can change it later (as they’ve already done in some cases) and those who bought on assurances that turned out to be false have no recourse.
> 
> But on the subject of your message, we have heard here from a couple of sources indicating that existing elite owners would be grandfathered into MVC elite levels, and I share your hope that comes to pass.


I’m not sure what “ grandfathering” would mean.  I was informed that If you are a Vistana owner and do not own any MVC, you are only Vistana. Can’t get any MVC properties with your options. 
I own Vistana and also MVC. i am told that I can use my MVC points to reserve Vistana properties. Also exchange them into MVC points, getting that option every year. But if I was not already an MVC owner I cannot do that!


----------



## Revbo

Here is an update on what is being told to owners as of May 19, 2022.  Starting later this year Vistana owners can pay a fee (much like the fee to bank points) and move weeks over to MVC and then have access to the MVC owners website.  MVC owners can do the same into the Vistana network.  Use of those transferred points will be Jan 1, 2023.  I was given a MVC value of my ownerships in Vistana and they were not the same.  2BR lock off at Westin Maui was 6200 (148100 in options). 1BR Westin Lagunamar Cancun will be 1700 MVC points (81,000 star options).  So it appears every week will be assigned a value of points in the other system when you elect to transfer those points NOT based on options value but location/season value. I was told you have two years to use them.  Who knows when this will be announced BUT of everything I have been told over the last few years that never happened, this seemed the most official AND the sales rep did NOT try to sell me anything to be “in a better position”.


----------



## cubigbird

This slightly contradicts earlier reports that qualifying Vistana VOIs - developer purchased and retro’d / requalified weeks would be able to elect MVC DC points for no charge.


----------



## DanCali

Revbo said:


> Starting later this year Vistana owners can pay a fee (much like the fee to bank points) and move weeks over to MVC and then have access to the MVC owners website...MVC owners can do the same into the Vistana network...



This last part makes it sound like MVC owners can get Staroptions. That is not something discussed anywhere else, including the Marriott tug boards. Most likely MVC owners will be able to use DC points to book Vistana weeks that were deposited into the DC exchange. There is no indication of a different mechanism.


----------



## MICROZE

Revbo said:


> Starting later this year Vistana owners can pay a fee (much like the fee to bank points) and move weeks over to MVC and then have access to the MVC owners website.


This sounds like what I have been tracking.

As a Vistana owner I can participate [Eligible-Contracts: Direct/Retro] within the DC-Program starting in SUMMER-2022 for usage beginning in JAN-2023.
To participate, I will have to pay a *One-Time* Enrollment-Fee [not sure how much]. A recent Purchase of DC-Points [not sure how far back] or Retro [purchase Felx] counts.
Each-Year I can elect to relinquish my Weeks/Star-Options/Flex to the DC-Program. Each-Year I can choose NOT to do so and exchange within VSN or via II as I always have.
For this privilege, I will have to pay an *ANNUAL *MVCI Club-Dues [slightly higher than my current VSN-Club-Dues] which will eliminate the need to pay a-la-carte VSN-Fees.
MVCI Has already released the NEW Club-Dues as well as DC-Points-Values each VSN resort-week will accrue, which is not based on SO-Value but on Resort/Season.


----------



## VacationForever

MICROZE said:


> This sounds like what I have been tracking.
> 
> As a Vistana owner I can participate [Eligible-Contracts: Direct/Retro] within the DC-Program starting in SUMMER-2023 for usage beginning in JAN-2023.
> To participate, I will have to pay a *One-Time* Enrollment-Fee [not sure how much]. A recent Purchase of DC-Points [not sure how far back] or Retro [purchase Felx] counts.
> Each-Year I can elect to relinquish my Weeks/Star-Options/Flex to the DC-Program. Each-Year I can choose NOT to do so and exchange within VSN or via II as I always have.
> For this privilege, I will have to pay an *ANNUAL *MVCI Club-Dues [slightly higher than my current VSN-Club-Dues] which will eliminate the need to pay a-la-carte VSN-Fees.
> MVCI Has already released the NEW Club-Dues as well as DC-Points-Values for that each VSN resort-week will accrue, which is not based on SO-Value but on Resort/Season.


The only thing is on the second point, I don't believe there will be an enrollment fee for direct/retro/qualified/eligible Vistana ownership.


----------



## MICROZE

VacationForever said:


> The only thing is on the second point, I don't believe there will be an enrollment fee for direct/retro/qualified/eligible Vistana ownership.


Agree. Seems logical to not have to pay an Enrollment-Fee to participate at least for Direct/Enrolled ownerships.

Hope we get the details next month.


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## remowidget

cubigbird said:


> This slightly contradicts earlier reports that qualifying Vistana VOIs - developer purchased and retro’d / requalified weeks would be able to elect MVC DC points for no charge.


At our meeting a couple weeks ago, we were told there will be a new currency called "Club Points" where MVC and Vistana can reciprocally book. She said we would have trouble booking Vistana resorts at 8 months for this reason. 

Of course this was from sales and the problem I see is the devaluation of properties. A Platinum owner in Arizona would no longer be able to book in Hawaii if they use what we have been hearing about DC point valuations. If there is truth to this, either there will be happy and pissed off people or maybe we will have two ways to use our ownership depending upon whether we are booking Vistana or MVC properties.


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## cubigbird

remowidget said:


> At our meeting a couple weeks ago, we were told there will be a new currency called "Club Points" where MVC and Vistana can reciprocally book. She said we would have trouble booking Vistana resorts at 8 months for this reason.
> 
> Of course this was from sales and the problem I see is the devaluation of properties. A Platinum owner in Arizona would no longer be able to book in Hawaii if they use what we have been hearing about DC point valuations. If there is truth to this, either there will be happy and pissed off people or maybe we will have two ways to use our ownership depending upon whether we are booking Vistana or MVC properties.



This seems more like “fear of missing out” by sales.  Sales’ job is to create problems, which may or may not exist.  Without something in writing, it’s hard to determine if there even is a problem.  Devaluations can happen, that’s why we are holding on to our deeds.  There has been a lot of talk in this thread about a “skim” if you convert VSE into MVC - for example a weeks worth of Staroptions in VSE converts to 5 or 6 nights over in Marriott.  Vistana how it works today should work going forward.   We love our VSE ownerships and the resorts and will likely continue in that program.  There’s just too much dust in the air to consider anything until a new program is officially in place.


----------



## CarpeDiem65

Revbo said:


> Here is an update on what is being told to owners as of May 19, 2022.  Starting later this year Vistana owners can pay a fee (much like the fee to bank points) and move weeks over to MVC and then have access to the MVC owners website.  MVC owners can do the same into the Vistana network.  Use of those transferred points will be Jan 1, 2023.  I was given a MVC value of my ownerships in Vistana and they were not the same.  2BR lock off at Westin Maui was 6200 (148100 in options). 1BR Westin Lagunamar Cancun will be 1700 MVC points (81,000 star options).  So it appears every week will be assigned a value of points in the other system when you elect to transfer those points NOT based on options value but location/season value. I was told you have two years to use them.  Who knows when this will be announced BUT of everything I have been told over the last few years that never happened, this seemed the most official AND the sales rep did NOT try to sell me anything to be “in a better position”.


We are at WKOVR on an Encore package and just completed our obligatory Owners Update. Here are the key details that we were given. 
When the merge is completed:
Our 3* Elite status will be given MVC Executive status
Our Bonvoy Gold status will be elevated to Platinum

We got our conversion rates for our Vistana ownership. WDW 148,100 gets 3,725 MVC points (40:1), Westin Flex 37,000 gets 1,285 MVC points (29:1). The posting above for Maui shows 148,100 gets 6,200 MVC points (24:1). Note that the the Maui ownership gets 66% more MVC than WDW. We were told that you could elect to exchange your WVC into MVC. I think they will have a separate pool for this purpose. When I look at the MVC points chart it matches fairly closely to our WDW usage. ie it would be an equal trade for Marriott Shadow Ridge as for WDW. Everywhere else it seems that we would do worse in MVC. However, the points for Maui are super high and we would be better off using Vistana StarOptions at 8 months. This brings up the topic about whether Vistana owners will get squeezed out at 8 months by MVC owners that will have access to Vistana properties. An owner I met at WPORV was told that MVC owners would only have access to Vistana properties that had been exchanged into the new MVC pool. This would ensure that there is balance in the system. I quess we will have to wait and see. They asked us if we wanted to add some more Westin Flex to our ownership but we declined.

They told us that they will stop selling Westin Flex at the end of May. Interesting. They also stated that once the merger was completed they would only sell MVC points. They could not provide any info on how we would access Vistana properties if we bought MVC points in the future. I wonder if this increases the market for resale MVC points.

I asked about resale of mandatory resorts like WKV. All they could say was that Marriott does not do Retro's. That being said, I thought you had to do some Flex to get a property retro'd so you could use the Staroptions for general use. If Flex can't be purchased, how could you retro and if you can't do a future retro of WKV how will that impact the price for WKV resales. Perhaps someone with better knowledge of mandatory resales and retro'ing could comment.

From my perspective, as long as I can get the same access to the Vistana properties as the past I will be happy. My message to the sales rep was that we would be very upset if we ended up with less after this merger is completed.


----------



## sharr7

CarpeDiem65 said:


> We are at WKOVR on an Encore package and just completed our obligatory Owners Update. Here are the key details that we were given.
> When the merge is completed:
> Our 3* Elite status will be given MVC Executive status
> Our Bonvoy Gold status will be elevated to Platinum
> 
> We got our conversion rates for our Vistana ownership. WDW 148,100 gets 3,725 MVC points (40:1), Westin Flex 37,000 gets 1,285 MVC points (29:1). The posting above for Maui shows 148,100 gets 6,200 MVC points (24:1). Note that the the Maui ownership gets 66% more MVC than WDW. We were told that you could elect to exchange your WVC into MVC. I think they will have a separate pool for this purpose. When I look at the MVC points chart it matches fairly closely to our WDW usage. ie it would be an equal trade for Marriott Shadow Ridge as for WDW. Everywhere else it seems that we would do worse in MVC. However, the points for Maui are super high and we would be better off using Vistana StarOptions at 8 months. This brings up the topic about whether Vistana owners will get squeezed out at 8 months by MVC owners that will have access to Vistana properties. An owner I met at WPORV was told that MVC owners would only have access to Vistana properties that had been exchanged into the new MVC pool. This would ensure that there is balance in the system. I quess we will have to wait and see. They asked us if we wanted to add some more Westin Flex to our ownership but we declined.
> 
> They told us that they will stop selling Westin Flex at the end of May. Interesting. They also stated that once the merger was completed they would only sell MVC points. They could not provide any info on how we would access Vistana properties if we bought MVC points in the future. I wonder if this increases the market for resale MVC points.
> 
> I asked about resale of mandatory resorts like WKV. All they could say was that Marriott does not do Retro's. That being said, I thought you had to do some Flex to get a property retro'd so you could use the Staroptions for general use. If Flex can't be purchased, how could you retro and if you can't do a future retro of WKV how will that impact the price for WKV resales. Perhaps someone with better knowledge of mandatory resales and retro'ing could comment.
> 
> From my perspective, as long as I can get the same access to the Vistana properties as the past I will be happy. My message to the sales rep was that we would be very upset if we ended up with less after this merger is completed.


Thanks for the report.

Vistana allows retro's starting at $10k of any "new money" (i.e., weeks work too), not just Flex. Flex is just the product they've been pushing the last few years and it's easy to sell any # of points to make $10k or $15k or whatever is needed. 

From what I understand Marriott DPs are essentially MVC "Flex" points and once they stop selling Westin Flex etc. they will likely push DP as the 'perfect option for you, and wow so flexible! now with access to Vistana properties!'

Additionally it does seem MVC retro's/requal's resales but it is pricier (I think starting at $35k worth of points or new money). And perhaps that's not ALWAYS offered.


----------



## Negma

Todays offer at SVR. We have roughly 800k options year
Retro reSale of WKV 148K options and And WMH 148K options ey plat. 
get 38k flex, and everything enrolled in new Marriott.
$15k all in. chairman’s, blah blah.
Thinking about it. Better than what WKORN offered in Feb. said start is July 1. And a one time 76k of options for 2023. MF 700/ yr


----------



## TravelTime

All this new info is helpful but confusing. Is the summary of this that Vistana owners can convert to DPs by just paying an enrollment fee every year? Or do resale Vistana owners need to purchase something to enroll their week, the same as post 2010 MVC owners need to do?


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> All this new info is helpful but confusing. Is the summary of this that Vistana owners can convert to DPs by just paying an enrollment fee every year? Or do resale Vistana owners need to purchase something to enroll their week, the same as post 2010 MVC owners need to do?


The "educated" guesses is that in order for resale VOIs to be able to elect DC Club Points, they will need to requalify first by purchasing direct from Vistana. Direct purchase or already requalified VOIs will simply be able to elect points moving forward. We don't fully understand the mechanics of enrollment in the DC program for Vistana VOIs, but there certainly won't be an annual enrollment fee every year. There would be an annual DC Club Fee.


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> The "educated" guesses is that in order for resale VOIs to be able to elect DC Club Points, they will need to requalify first by purchasing direct from Vistana. Direct purchase or already requalified VOIs will simply be able to elect points moving forward. We don't fully understand the mechanics of enrollment in the DC program for Vistana VOIs, but there certainly won't be an annual enrollment fee every year. There would be an annual DC Club Fee.



This is what I understood but then with the wave of posts above, once again I got confused. I figure if Marriott will not let post-2010 Marriott resales enroll for free/low cost and they require purchase of points, then they probably will not allow Vistana resales to enroll for free/low cost. I would guess the enrollment rules would be the same.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> This is what I understood but then with the wave of posts above, once again I got confused. I figure if Marriott will not let post-2010 Marriott resales enroll for free/low cost and they require purchase of points, then they probably will not allow Vistana resales to enroll for free/low cost. I would guess the enrollment rules would be the same.


We need to take all reports that come from a sales presentation with a grain of salt. We really need to take everything with a grain of salt. Even everything I stated in my last post could be wrong. But just because someone comes along with a different story, it doesn't change the whole story.


----------



## DanCali

Negma said:


> Todays offer at SVR. We have roughly 800k options year
> Retro reSale of WKV 148K options and And WMH 148K options ey plat.
> get 38k flex, and everything enrolled in new Marriott.
> $15k all in. chairman’s, blah blah.
> Thinking about it. Better than what WKORN offered in Feb. said start is July 1. And a one time 76k of options for 2023. MF 700/ yr




I see you also own WKORVN and SVR - are those developer purchased? If so, should be at Executive or Presidential level without the retro, no?


----------



## ptidman

My wife and I are currently about to finish our stay at Sheraton Stramboat. The Conceirge offered us $300 to attend a sales presentation tomorrow morning, and we signed up. I assume they are paying us not just for the privilege of giving us information, but that they are going to try and sell us something tomorrow. But after reading through this thread it seems as though some of the details of the new program are still pretty unclear. We are Sheraton Flex owners.

We are pretty determined not to commit to anything. The conceirge promised the twoguys that do these are great guys and not high pressure. We’ll see. I’ll report back what they offer. Are there any specific questions I should ask—either that would be useful to the group, or important for me to know?


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> This last part makes it sound like MVC owners can get Staroptions. That is not something discussed anywhere else, including the Marriott tug boards. Most likely MVC owners will be able to use DC points to book Vistana weeks that were deposited into the DC exchange. There is no indication of a different mechanism.



Would it be reasonable to guess that VSE and SOs will become a legacy system? I can’t imagine why MVC would want to keep focusing on SOs and offer cross-booking for MVC owners and Vistana owners. Seems more practical to focus on the MVC booking system and selling DPs. As everyone on this forum says, the MVC program has a lot of complexity. Imagine adding even more!


----------



## Negma

DanCali said:


> I see you also own WKORVN and SVR - are those developer purchased? If so, should be at Executive or Presidential level without the retro, no?


Correct. The pitch was being able to convert the resales into the system to give more choices ( potentially 7k more MVC points) as Marriott would not do this once it goes live ( I know it’s speculation) . When at WKORVN the offer was to bring in one of the units into the system, give up a smaller resales, and 12 k. The deal here was better to retro both in. Was it better  because we are in Orlando or because we are getting closer to going live? Don’t know. We do like the idea of having everything into the system for the flexibility. The part I didn’t believe was if you didn’t have some flex points you would not be able to convert anything to MVC. That just didn’t line up with what we have been hearing and reading.


----------



## daviator

Negma said:


> The part I didn’t believe was if you didn’t have some flex points you would not be able to convert anything to MVC. That just didn’t line up with what we have been hearing and reading.


I suspect that's a story they've been telling to owners who don't have any flex points, especially since flex points are basically all they have to sell at the moment, and the sales people want to eat.  But it really doesn't pass the sniff test — especially since they claim to be a month away from never selling another flex point.


----------



## kozykritter

ptidman said:


> My wife and I are currently about to finish our stay at Sheraton Stramboat. The Conceirge offered us $300 to attend a sales presentation tomorrow morning, and we signed up. I assume they are paying us not just for the privilege of giving us information, but that they are going to try and sell us something tomorrow. But after reading through this thread it seems as though some of the details of the new program are still pretty unclear. We are Sheraton Flex owners.
> 
> We are pretty determined not to commit to anything. The conceirge promised the twoguys that do these are great guys and not high pressure. We’ll see. I’ll report back what they offer. Are there any specific questions I should ask—either that would be useful to the group, or important for me to know?


The two sales people there (Jim and Scott) are definitely great guys, at least when I did a presentation with them back in the fall. After reviewing my portfolio and hearing how I used it, mine told me he didn't see any need for me to buy more. However the closer came in and was high pressure and really just a complete jerk. I hope you don't have that experience.

Did you buy your Sheraton Flex directly from Vistana purchase or is it a resale? It would be great to find out for the group which types of existing ownership would qualify to enroll in and elect DC points and if there would be a fee to do so. We've had so much speculation on that topic, particularly when it comes to resale mandatory ownerships.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> Would it be reasonable to guess that VSE and SOs will become a legacy system? I can’t imagine why MVC would want to keep focusing on SOs and offer cross-booking for MVC owners and Vistana owners. Seems more practical to focus on the MVC booking system and selling DPs. As everyone on this forum says, the MVC program has a lot of complexity. Imagine adding even more!



I don't believe so. In fact, it would be reckless and short-sighted.

You are dealing with a massive number of owners who bought Vistana because they liked Vistana. They bought weeks. They bought Flex or traded weeks for Flex. Most of them bought from the developer. Why would MVC kill the exchange system all those people like? They can always sell them on the need to own more points (for exchanges, for cruises, for status). If they kill VSN it will likely antagonize pretty much all owners and I doubt they would rush to pull out their wallets to buy the next shiny object (that is a lot less shiny than VSN to most).

I think Vistana can coexist alongside the DC exchange just like the Florida Club does.


----------



## DanCali

Negma said:


> Correct. The pitch was being able to convert the resales into the system to give more choices ( potentially 7k more MVC points) as Marriott would not do this once it goes live ( I know it’s speculation) . When at WKORVN the offer was to bring in one of the units into the system, give up a smaller resales, and 12 k. The deal here was better to retro both in. Was it better  because we are in Orlando or because we are getting closer to going live? Don’t know. We do like the idea of having everything into the system for the flexibility. The part I didn’t believe was if you didn’t have some flex points you would not be able to convert anything to MVC. That just didn’t line up with what we have been hearing and reading.




The deal of $10K retro + $5K for additional units has been around for at least several years. We bought a WKV 2BR for our retro at around $41K and could have retro'd 7 weeks with that, if we had them (in fact, IIRC the salesperson mentioned he could possibly have given us credit for the pre-sale price of ~$60K and retro'd 11 - but I might have misunderstood, and it didn't really matter in our case)

The Flex points line they gave you seems like nonsense, but the deal itself may be the best you will see in some time since with MVC the (current) spend levels are much greater to enroll weeks. They may drop those spend levels over time, but I think that's something you need to consider if you think you may ever want to enroll those weeks. 7K more points is not insignificant and Chairman vs Executive has some extra perks, but they are relatively minor. It'd be a pretty speculative, but not completely uninformed or unreasonable buy IMO.

Keep in mind that you will, presumably, already have Executive or Presidential status from your other weeks and, with access to the system, you will be able to rent more points from others as needed. It is not as flexible as electing a week for points but it's an alternative. So, I think you need to ask yourself how likely you are to convert those weeks to DC points. I answer the question in the following way (WKV 2BR Platinum as example):
(a) How many points do I get for my week? (4050 points)
(b) How much can I rent my week for and how many rented points will that cash get me ($4000-$4500 buys you about 5700-6400 points in the rental market).

So even though all my weeks are retro'd and presumably I will be able to elect points for my WKV weeks, I don't see myself doing it for 4050 points. I have a couple of other enrolled MVC weeks that I would be more likely to convert to DC points first (but the math above favors point election really with only one of my weeks) and if that doesn't suffice I can rent more, when needed. For my 2023 resrevations I ended up renting points from someone for a points reservation and plan to use or rent all my actual weeks. I could have converted one of them for points, but I needed it for 13-month window weeks booking.

Do keep in mind that points you rent from others cannot be moved again (so no banking or re-renting... use them or lose them). They are less flexible than elected points which can be banked or rented out.

Good luck with your decision - I think you can justify it either way!


----------



## sharr7

ptidman said:


> My wife and I are currently about to finish our stay at Sheraton Stramboat. The Conceirge offered us $300 to attend a sales presentation tomorrow morning, and we signed up. I assume they are paying us not just for the privilege of giving us information, but that they are going to try and sell us something tomorrow. But after reading through this thread it seems as though some of the details of the new program are still pretty unclear. We are Sheraton Flex owners.
> 
> We are pretty determined not to commit to anything. The conceirge promised the twoguys that do these are great guys and not high pressure. We’ll see. I’ll report back what they offer. Are there any specific questions I should ask—either that would be useful to the group, or important for me to know?


I think one of the biggest questions right now if anyone gets an honest/helpful salesperson (lol) is where they will "draw the line" on what ownership types are able to convert into MVC/DP from Vistana/SO. There's been speculation/reports all over the board:
1. Must actually own DP before you can exchange
2. Must own (direct) Flex product
3. Any direct or retro/requalified ("in network") week or Flex package
4. Anyone eligible to use SOs (i.e., mandatory weeks including un-enrolled/non-qualified)
5. Any owner including voluntary resale, perhaps to maximize trades into MVC such that MVC owners get maximum use of "new" Vistana trades

I think most agree the line is likely to fall around 3 or 4. However, sales have definitely been using the threat of 1 or 2 to give people FOMO. Are there other factors involved in eligibility, like Elite level?

Additionally we lack clarity on how the fees will work. We expect a slight increase in what's now the VSN fee ($155-$215) as they standardize network fees with MVC; the benefit is some of the "a la carte" fees will disappear (banking, guest fees, etc.). Will there be a fee to convert to and use MVC/DP network in addition to the new/updated program fee? What will it be?


----------



## Negma

DanCali said:


> The deal of $10K retro + $5K for additional units has been around for at least several years. We bought a WKV 2BR for our retro at around $41K and could have retro'd 7 weeks with that, if we had them (in fact, IIRC the salesperson mentioned he could possibly have given us credit for the pre-sale price of ~$60K and retro'd 11 - but I might have misunderstood, and it didn't really matter in our case)
> 
> The Flex points line they gave you seems like nonsense, but the deal itself may be the best you will see in some time since with MVC the (current) spend levels are much greater to enroll weeks. They may drop those spend levels over time, but I think that's something you need to consider if you think you may ever want to enroll those weeks. 7K more points is not insignificant and Chairman vs Executive has some extra perks, but they are relatively minor. It'd be a pretty speculative, but not completely uninformed or unreasonable buy IMO.
> 
> Keep in mind that you will, presumably, already have Executive or Presidential status from your other weeks and, with access to the system, you will be able to rent more points from others as needed. It is not as flexible as electing a week for points but it's an alternative. So, I think you need to ask yourself how likely you are to convert those weeks to DC points. I answer the question in the following way (WKV 2BR Platinum as example):
> (a) How many points do I get for my week? (4050 points)
> (b) How much can I rent my week for and how many rented points will that cash get me ($4000-$4500 buys you about 5700-6400 points in the rental market).
> 
> So even though all my weeks are retro'd and presumably I will be able to elect points for my WKV weeks, I don't see myself doing it for 4050 points. I have a couple of other enrolled MVC weeks that I would be more likely to convert to DC points first (but the math above favors point election really with only one of my weeks) and if that doesn't suffice I can rent more, when needed. For my 2023 resrevations I ended up renting points from someone for a points reservation and plan to use or rent all my actual weeks. I could have converted one of them for points, but I needed it for 13-month window weeks booking.
> 
> Do keep in mind that points you rent from others cannot be moved again (so no banking or re-renting... use them or lose them). They are less flexible than elected points which can be banked or rented out.
> 
> Good luck with your decision - I think you can justify it either way!


Thank you for the thoughtful and complete response. We are probably going forward with this as the bonus options of 76k for next year easily get us at least an additional week of vacation and take a little sting out of the $$. We do not normally buy extra points or rent, as much as we plan, I don’t like the extra hassle ( I know it is not as a pain as I think). But it does give us more flexibility going forward and over time some more perks. A little more spoiling is good.


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> I don't believe so. In fact, it would be reckless and short-sighted.
> 
> You are dealing with a massive number of owners who bought Vistana because they liked Vistana. They bought weeks. They bought Flex or traded weeks for Flex. Most of them bought from the developer. Why would MVC kill the exchange system all those people like? They can always sell them on the need to own more points (for exchanges, for cruises, for status). If they kill VSN it will likely antagonize pretty much all owners and I doubt they would rush to pull out their wallets to buy the next shiny object (that is a lot less shiny than VSN to most).
> 
> I think Vistana can coexist alongside the DC exchange just like the Florida Club does.



I was not thinking they would ”kill” VSN. I was thinking perhaps it would become a legacy system that would still be maintained for existing owners but they would put most of their time and effort into the MVC system.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> I was not thinking they would ”kill” VSN. I was thinking perhaps it would become a legacy system that would still be maintained for existing owners but they would put most of their time and effort into the MVC system.



Is that's what you meant then I agree. I think we can expect the reservation system to be maintained (hopefully well) but no new enhancements.  Phone support will hopefully continue for those who need it. They will probably merge the Owner Modifications departments to take care of resales, and that will be it.


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> Is that's what you meant then I agree. I think we can expect the reservation system to be maintained (hopefully well) but no new enhancements.  Phone support will hopefully continue for those who need it. They will probably merge the Owner Modifications departments to take care of resales, and that will be it.



Yes this is exactly what I meant.


----------



## timsi

Does anyone know if one can buy now from Vistana with the condition to requalify FUTURE resale weeks? For us it is not ideal to requalify some of our current resale weeks (1 BR platinum EY or 2 BR EOY) but we may buy another resale week later this year.


----------



## VacationForever

timsi said:


> Does anyone know if one can buy now from Vistana with the condition to requalify FUTURE resale weeks? For us it is not ideal to requalify some of our current resale weeks (1 BR platinum EY or 2 BR EOY) but we may buy another resale week later this year.


The only way to do it is they delay closing by 6 months.  MVC offered to do that for us so that we had time to buy resale and then getting the week enrolled.  They said that they would document it so that it was legally binding.


----------



## ptidman

kozykritter said:


> The two sales people there (Jim and Scott) are definitely great guys, at least when I did a presentation with them back in the fall. After reviewing my portfolio and hearing how I used it, mine told me he didn't see any need for me to buy more. However the closer came in and was high pressure and really just a complete jerk. I hope you don't have that experience.
> 
> Did you buy your Sheraton Flex directly from Vistana purchase or is it a resale? It would be great to find out for the group which types of existing ownership would qualify to enroll in and elect DC points and if there would be a fee to do so. We've had so much speculation on that topic, particularly when it comes to resale mandatory ownerships.


Our salesman was a friendly 60ish guynamed Peter, and then a younger guy, Conrad, came in with the deal. (Side note, I thought Conrad disrespected Peter several times—“Where you going with that Peter?”)  Anyhow, the pitch to us was that Vistana owners (we bought directly from Vistana) are getting a great deal with the new program, and that now was the time to buy Vistana because in June they would no longer be selling any Vistana points, just Marriott, and we wouldn’t get nearly as good a deal

But they said regardless of whether we bought anything or not, we will be able to convert our Vistana options to the Marriott points. Our 67,100 Vistana flex options converts to 1960 points in the Marriott system. They showed us several examples of what we could do with that many points. It’s hard to compare exactly because the Marriott system seemed much more fine grained—the same room can cost lots of different amounts depending on the specific week.
They said we were good to go, whether we purchased anything or not. We can continue to use our star options on Vistana properties, just as we always have,  or, beginning in 23 reserve the Marriott properties.

They first tried to get us to basically double what we had, and gain elite status, which would let us reserve 13 months out. That was a hard no. A lot of money, a lot of maintenance fee. The least the could sell us was 20,000 Star options and it was going to cost us about 10K. Again, that was a no.

That’s from memory. I was I had taken a picture of the sheet they always do with their figures jotted down. There were some other incentives—Bonvoy points, “promos” that let us purchase 330000 Bonvoy points for $2295.

 One last humorous note. At one point they commented how great it was that they now knew for sure when the program began and they had a “hard date” they could absolutely count on. I said, “You have an exact hard date when the program starts?” Pause. “ We’ll,no, but it’s definitely going to be in June.”


----------



## kozykritter

ptidman said:


> Our salesman was a friendly 60ish guynamed Peter, and then a younger guy, Conrad, came in with the deal. (Side note, I thought Conrad disrespected Peter several times—“Where you going with that Peter?”)  Anyhow, the pitch to us was that Vistana owners (we bought directly from Vistana) are getting a great deal with the new program, and that now was the time to buy Vistana because in June they would no longer be selling any Vistana points, just Marriott, and we wouldn’t get nearly as good a deal
> 
> But they said regardless of whether we bought anything or not, we will be able to convert our Vistana options to the Marriott points. Our 67,100 Vistana flex options converts to 1960 points in the Marriott system. They showed us several examples of what we could do with that many points. It’s hard to compare exactly because the Marriott system seemed much more fine grained—the same room can cost lots of different amounts depending on the specific week.
> They said we were good to go, whether we purchased anything or not. We can continue to use our star options on Vistana properties, just as we always have,  or, beginning in 23 reserve the Marriott properties.
> 
> They first tried to get us to basically double what we had, and gain elite status, which would let us reserve 13 months out. That was a hard no. A lot of money, a lot of maintenance fee. The least the could sell us was 20,000 Star options and it was going to cost us about 10K. Again, that was a no.
> 
> That’s from memory. I was I had taken a picture of the sheet they always do with their figures jotted down. There were some other incentives—Bonvoy points, “promos” that let us purchase 330000 Bonvoy points for $2295.
> 
> One last humorous note. At one point they commented how great it was that they now knew for sure when the program began and they had a “hard date” they could absolutely count on. I said, “You have an exact hard date when the program starts?” Pause. “ We’ll,no, but it’s definitely going to be in June.”


Thanks for the report back! As a fellow Sheraton Flex direct purchaser, I'm going to be encouraged by what you were told. I have a Encore-related required sales presentation at a MVC property next weekend so your report will arm me against any skewed info that comes out of their mouths 

Yes, 20,700 is the minimum Flex purchase because that is the lowest option cost to reserve a week in VSN (15K for SSR hotel room doesn't count) and as a policy they don't sell a contract for less than a week equivalent. It is the same reason that you can't make a Flex deposit into II for less than 20,700 options.


----------



## daviator

ptidman said:


> Our salesman was a friendly 60ish guynamed Peter, and then a younger guy, Conrad, came in with the deal. (Side note, I thought Conrad disrespected Peter several times—“Where you going with that Peter?”)  Anyhow, the pitch to us was that Vistana owners (we bought directly from Vistana) are getting a great deal with the new program, and that now was the time to buy Vistana because in June they would no longer be selling any Vistana points, just Marriott, and we wouldn’t get nearly as good a deal
> 
> But they said regardless of whether we bought anything or not, we will be able to convert our Vistana options to the Marriott points. Our 67,100 Vistana flex options converts to 1960 points in the Marriott system. They showed us several examples of what we could do with that many points. It’s hard to compare exactly because the Marriott system seemed much more fine grained—the same room can cost lots of different amounts depending on the specific week.
> They said we were good to go, whether we purchased anything or not. We can continue to use our star options on Vistana properties, just as we always have,  or, beginning in 23 reserve the Marriott properties.
> 
> They first tried to get us to basically double what we had, and gain elite status, which would let us reserve 13 months out. That was a hard no. A lot of money, a lot of maintenance fee. The least the could sell us was 20,000 Star options and it was going to cost us about 10K. Again, that was a no.
> 
> That’s from memory. I was I had taken a picture of the sheet they always do with their figures jotted down. There were some other incentives—Bonvoy points, “promos” that let us purchase 330000 Bonvoy points for $2295.
> 
> One last humorous note. At one point they commented how great it was that they now knew for sure when the program began and they had a “hard date” they could absolutely count on. I said, “You have an exact hard date when the program starts?” Pause. “ We’ll,no, but it’s definitely going to be in June.”


I think you get the award for best owner update, because based on everything I have read and believe to be true, you were not lied to, at least not significantly, and that’s a rarity. It warms my heart to think that there are one or two honest timeshare sales people out there.  I hope they have food to put on their table at night.

And it might even be true that the cost of buying Destination Points – maybe the only thing they will sell beginning in July – will be greater than the cost of buying a comparable equivalent of Westin or Sheraton Flex today.  I haven’t done the math but my impression is that MVC ownership, which used to be quite a bit cheaper than Vistana ownership, has become pricier in recent years. But it seems like that just points to buying resale or renting any additIonal points you might need as more cost-effective options to buying DP from MVC.

I will bet anyone a dollar that almost as soon as they stop selling Vistana-specific products, they will start using that as a tactic to get existing owners to trade in their deeded weeks or flex points, plus some cash, for a DP- based ownership.  “We are phasing out VSN” they will say.  And this line will work on plenty of people.

So why would you want to give them more money today for a product that they’re going to tell you is obsolete tomorrow?  (I disagree that VSN is going to go away in the foreseeable future, but I’m predicting that its reputed demise will become part of the MVC sales pitch.)


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## tamu_bu

Could be June 1st or June 84th or later!!!


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## DanCali

Got some info at an MVC Owner update that MVC owners will be able to book Vistana resorts for 2023 reservations (Jan 1 or later checkin) starting July 1 (or June 31 if you prefer ). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## William Seward

When you purchase a resale MVC property do the Marriott (DC) point come with the purchase or is it just that property? Can you purchase floating weeks? Also, can you purchase just points for your profile?

Scenario:
I have 148,100 Westin points, that I squired through the developer. I've been told via this forum that that will most likely convert to 6,200 to 6,300 points. I've been wondering about the Executive level at 7,000 points. My home resort presented me with two option for getting additional points. Both option cost over $40,000. I'm am wondering about the option of purchasing a resale of additional point to acquire the additional 700 to 800 points that are needed. I see the advantage of a lower level resale purchase of acquiring the additional points.  

Bill Seward


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## vacationtime1

William Seward said:


> When you purchase a resale MVC property do the Marriott (DC) point come with the purchase or is it just that property? Can you purchase floating weeks? Also, can you purchase just points for your profile?
> 
> Scenario:
> I have 148,100 Westin points, that I squired through the developer. I've been told via this forum that that will most likely convert to 6,200 to 6,300 points. I've been wondering about the Executive level at 7,000 points. My home resort presented me with two option for getting additional points. Both option cost over $40,000. I'm am wondering about the option of purchasing a resale of additional point to acquire the additional 700 to 800 points that are needed. I see the advantage of a lower level resale purchase of acquiring the additional points.
> 
> Bill Seward


Assuming your 148100 StarOption contract is allowed to enroll in the DC, you can then buy 1000 DC points on the resale market for about $7,000 all in.


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## rickandcindy23

DanCali said:


> Got some info at an MVC Owner update that MVC owners will be able to book Vistana resorts for 2023 reservations (Jan 1 or later checkin) starting July 1 (or June 31 if you prefer ).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hope that is not true. But I think you are joking because of the June 31st thing.


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## VacationForever

@William Seward Resale MVC week does not convert to DC points unless enrolled through a developer purchase.  Buying 1000 MVC DC points resale should get you over the 7000 points for Executive.  They are sold in blocks of 250 and for existing owners, the minimum is 1000 points.


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## DanCali

rickandcindy23 said:


> I hope that is not true. But I think you are joking because of the June 31st thing.



I was not joking. Got that info at an update. 

The June 31 part was a joke in reference to the post promo or to mine from @tamu_bu


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> The only way to do it is they delay closing by 6 months.  MVC offered to do that for us so that we had time to buy resale and then getting the week enrolled.  They said that they would document it so that it was legally binding.



When they said they would document it, did they put it in the contract?


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## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> When they said they would document it, did they put it in the contract?


Yes.


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## duke

Owners Update - Update
1.  Implementation GO date will be February 2023.  Marriott system years start then.  (This is when you will be able to see Titanium etc. in your Marriott Bonvoy accounts and when you can convert/elect DC points and book in the Marriott system)
2.  There will be 3 columns when you log on which will show your Vistana, Flex, and Marriott DC options.
3.  You can elect to be in DC and trade your deeded weeks for that years DC points.  You can elect each year individually.
4.  Each system (Vistana, Flex, and DC) will remain separate and only deeded weeks that have been traded that year for that years use will be in the other system. 
5.  One time only at start date (February 2023) will Vistana Elite levels transfer to Bonvoy system.  This means that if you were grandfathered to 5 star Elite at lower staroption levels they will grandfather you to Marriott Bonvoy.  5 Star Elite = Marriott Chairman level.  After that your status  will be determined by DC points.
6.  They have all the info on each of your timeshare's history on separate pages and can give to you at the update.  It shows everything including StarOption, StarPoints/Bonvoy points, and DC points as well as original owner purchase amounts, etc.
7.  Requalified weeks will be accepted as if developer purchased.  However, not requalified resales will only be able to book for weeks per the deed and not tradable.
8.  Only upgrading weeks if developer purchase.  No upgrades after Marriott implementation.
9.  Salespersons clearly say DC points given to Maui are way out of line compared to other locations but Marriott thinks this will cause Maui to be elected each year to the DC system.
10.  Developer sale price for WKORV ocean view is $100,900 and WKORV OF is $150,000 but they will give 15% discount.
11.  Attending owners update gets you 30,000 Bonvoy points.
12.  No more sales of deeded weeks after implementation.


----------



## TravelTime

duke said:


> Owners Update - Update
> 1.  Implementation GO date will be February 2023.  Marriott system years start then.  (This is when you will be able to see Titanium etc. in your Marriott Bonvoy accounts and when you can convert/elect DC points and book in the Marriott system)
> 2.  There will be 3 columns when you log on which will show your Vistana, Flex, and Marriott DC options.
> 3.  You can elect to be in DC and trade your deeded weeks for that years DC points.  You can elect each year individually.
> 4.  Each system (Vistana, Flex, and DC) will remain separate and only deeded weeks that have been traded that year for that years use will be in the other system.
> 5.  One time only at start date (February 2023) will Vistana Elite levels transfer to Bonvoy system.  This means that if you were grandfathered to 5 star Elite at lower staroption levels they will grandfather you to Marriott Bonvoy.  5 Star Elite = Marriott Chairman level.  After that your status  will be determined by DC points.
> 6.  They have all the info on each of your timeshare's history on separate pages and can give to you at the update.  It shows everything including StarOption, StarPoints/Bonvoy points, and DC points as well as original owner purchase amounts, etc.
> 7.  Requalified weeks will be accepted as if developer purchased.  However, not requalified resales will only be able to book for weeks per the deed and not tradable.
> 8.  Only upgrading weeks if developer purchase.  No upgrades after Marriott implementation.
> 9.  Salespersons clearly say DC points given to Maui are way out of line compared to other locations but Marriott thinks this will cause Maui to be elected each year to the DC system.
> 10.  Developer sale price for WKORV ocean view is $100,900 and WKORV OF is $150,000 but they will give 15% discount.
> 11.  Attending owners update gets you 30,000 Bonvoy points.
> 12.  No more sales of deeded weeks after implementation.



Can you explain #7, #8 and #10 better?

For #7, does “requalified weeks” mean you purchased something direct from Marriott or Vistana to enroll your Vistana resale week?

For #8, what does “upgrading weeks” mean?

For #10, what do they mean by 15% discount? What is that for?


----------



## Negma

duke said:


> Owners Update - Update
> 1.  Implementation GO date will be February 2023.  Marriott system years start then.  (This is when you will be able to see Titanium etc. in your Marriott Bonvoy accounts and when you can convert/elect DC points and book in the Marriott system)
> 2.  There will be 3 columns when you log on which will show your Vistana, Flex, and Marriott DC options.
> 3.  You can elect to be in DC and trade your deeded weeks for that years DC points.  You can elect each year individually.
> 4.  Each system (Vistana, Flex, and DC) will remain separate and only deeded weeks that have been traded that year for that years use will be in the other system.
> 5.  One time only at start date (February 2023) will Vistana Elite levels transfer to Bonvoy system.  This means that if you were grandfathered to 5 star Elite at lower staroption levels they will grandfather you to Marriott Bonvoy.  5 Star Elite = Marriott Chairman level.  After that your status  will be determined by DC points.
> 6.  They have all the info on each of your timeshare's history on separate pages and can give to you at the update.  It shows everything including StarOption, StarPoints/Bonvoy points, and DC points as well as original owner purchase amounts, etc.
> 7.  Requalified weeks will be accepted as if developer purchased.  However, not requalified resales will only be able to book for weeks per the deed and not tradable.
> 8.  Only upgrading weeks if developer purchase.  No upgrades after Marriott implementation.
> 9.  Salespersons clearly say DC points given to Maui are way out of line compared to other locations but Marriott thinks this will cause Maui to be elected each year to the DC system.
> 10.  Developer sale price for WKORV ocean view is $100,900 and WKORV OF is $150,000 but they will give 15% discount.
> 11.  Attending owners update gets you 30,000 Bonvoy points.
> 12.  No more sales of deeded weeks after implementation.


This is very consistent with what we heard in Florida last week. Implementation dates were not discussed. Thank you.


----------



## divenski

duke said:


> Owners Update - Update
> 9.  Salespersons clearly say DC points given to Maui are way out of line compared to other locations but Marriott thinks this will cause Maui to be elected each year to the DC system.
> 10.  Developer sale price for WKORV ocean view is $100,900 and WKORV OF is $150,000 but they will give 15% discount.



If they have been selling deeded weeks for anywhere near these prices, then the DC point values might not be that far off.


----------



## dsmrp

@duke ,  Not that I have need or desire to buy Flex, but did sales reiterate they will stop selling Flex at the end of June?


----------



## Pedro

dsmrp said:


> @duke ,  Not that I have need or desire to buy Flex, but did sales reiterate they will stop selling Flex at the end of June?


That’s what we were told at our owners update yesterday.  Flex points will only be sold until the end of June.


----------



## timsi

Pedro said:


> That’s what we were told at our owners update yesterday.  Flex points will only be sold until the end of June.


I am wondering if that is true for all the Flex programs, including Mexico.


----------



## dioxide45

I wonder what they will do with required Flex contracts. THere are always lots of foreclosure recordings in Orange County for Sheraton Flex. Looking at how they handled Westin Flex and Nanea, it looks like they may have just deeded some of the home options to Westin Flex, but I can't see Hawaii recordings to confirm. I can only see where they activated about 7.5 million Home Options in Westin Flex back in 2019. So perhaps they can just deed the HomeOption deeds they take back over to the DC trust. Looking up the some regulations around REITs, it looks like a REIT can own another REIT.


----------



## dioxide45

timsi said:


> I am wondering if that is true for all the Flex programs, including Mexico.


I suspect Westin Aventuras will still be sold as it is today. Just Sheraton and Westin Flex could go away. Perhaps all those other flex products like they have too; Nanea and certain phases in WSJ.


----------



## aimersyo

I just received an ownership update call from Vistana and they told me that the launch starts June 30 for 2023 bookings.  I was told a few months ago that my Westin Flex points would not be able to access the Marriott Destinations database, unless i bought more.  I immediately called BS and have been pretty pissed off about the whole things since.  I asked the lady on the phone if Westin Flex owners will be able to convert and access the database of Marriott locations and she said absolutely.  Also, she did try to get me to buy into elite level "because that's where the fun stuff happens".  I asked what's the fun stuff and she basically rattled off a list of things like VRBO inspired homes for rent, large organized tours and cruises, etc.

She also said my 81000 Flex points equals 2807 Marriott Destination points , FWIW.  No clue what that means as far as what I can book, but I guess I will find out soon enough.


----------



## cubigbird

aimersyo said:


> I was told a few months ago that my Westin Flex points would not be able to access the Marriott Destinations database, unless i bought more.  I immediately called BS and have been pretty pissed off about the whole things since.
> 
> She also said my 81000 Flex points equals 2807 Marriott Destination points , FWIW.  No clue what that means as far as what I can book, but I guess I will find out soon enough.



It means your 81000 options can access the Marriott DC.  She basically contradicted herself.


----------



## dioxide45

cubigbird said:


> It means your 81000 options can access the Marriott DC.  She basically contradicted herself.


Not sure there was a contradiction, she said "absolutely". I took that to mean "yes".


----------



## grgs

cubigbird said:


> It means your 81000 options can access the Marriott DC.  She basically contradicted herself.


It sounds like there were two separate interactions.  The first person, a few months ago, said that they wouldn't be able to access Marriott resorts.  The second person, phone call today, said that they would be able to access Marriott resorts. She also gave the # of DPs.  She didn't contradict herself, but did contradict the person from a few months back.

Anyway, tomorrow is June 1.  Will we get a formal announcement?  LOL!


----------



## VacationForever

grgs said:


> It sounds like there were two separate interactions.  The first person, a few months ago, said that they wouldn't be able to access Marriott resorts.  The second person, phone call today, said that they would be able to access Marriott resorts. She also gave the # of DPs.  She didn't contradict herself, but did contradict the person from a few months back.
> 
> Anyway, tomorrow is June 1.  Will we get a formal announcement?  LOL!


I thought it is June 30th.


----------



## dioxide45

grgs said:


> It sounds like there were two separate interactions.  The first person, a few months ago, said that they wouldn't be able to access Marriott resorts.  The second person, phone call today, said that they would be able to access Marriott resorts. She also gave the # of DPs.  She didn't contradict herself, but did contradict the person from a few months back.
> 
> Anyway, tomorrow is June 1.  Will we get a formal announcement?  LOL!


We probably won't get an announcement until the day we can actually start booking.


----------



## grgs

VacationForever said:


> I thought it is June 30th.


Oh, ok, maybe I got the alleged date wrong.


----------



## damianinpa

I've read through most of the thread, but, I'm still confused.  I bought a Fixed week 27 in Vistana a very long time ago.  But, when some refurbs happened, I was invited to join SVN Program which I did.  So, today, in the what I own, it shows Annual week 27, 2 Bedroom Palms, but, I can use my 81,000 Staroptions to trade in network and it shows 126,000 bonvoy points. I can fully dump to II too.  I think this means I'll be invited into the program was wasn't sure.  Is this what people mean by Re-qualified?  If it does mean I can use the Marriott resorts, anyone have an idea of how many points will be offered?


----------



## jabberwocky

damianinpa said:


> I've read through most of the thread, but, I'm still confused.  I bought a Fixed week 27 in Vistana a very long time ago.  But, when some refurbs happened, I was invited to join SVN Program which I did.  So, today, in the what I own, it shows Annual week 27, 2 Bedroom Palms, but, I can use my 81,000 Staroptions to trade in network and it shows 126,000 bonvoy points. I can fully dump to II too.  I think this means I'll be invited into the program was wasn't sure.  Is this what people mean by Re-qualified?  If it does mean I can use the Marriott resorts, anyone have an idea of how many points will be offered?


Requalified means you bought a unit on the resale market and subsequently purchased from the developer (Vistana). As part of the process, they treat your resale the same as if you had purchased directly from them.

I’m assuming that you purchased your unit a long time ago directly from Vistana (before they were purchased by Starwood). If this is the case you don’t need a requalified week as your unit is already in the network and was purchased directly.

Not sure how many pointed exactly you will get for your week in MVC, but I’d figure low 2000s.


----------



## damianinpa

No, I bought off Ebay as a fixed week 27 Resale like 15 years ago for practically nothing.  At that time, I could only use it that week/specific unit I bought.  Then, a few years in, they did some mandatory refurbs for all the units in Orlando (I think that was because RCI downgraded them to Silver from Gold).  At that time, I was offered to join SVN program which I did.   So, now I still have my week 27 Fixed, but, can cancel yearly and it just coverts to Options where I can book any week that has availability in any of the SVN resorts.  So, I don't know where I fall into all of this, but, my gut tells me I will be able to use the program especially since I see the 126,000 Bonvoy Points too.


----------



## lorenmd

damianinpa said:


> No, I bought off Ebay as a fixed week 27 Resale like 15 years ago for practically nothing.  At that time, I could only use it that week/specific unit I bought.  Then, a few years in, they did some mandatory refurbs for all the units in Orlando (I think that was because RCI downgraded them to Silver from Gold).  At that time, I was offered to join SVN program which I did.   So, now I still have my week 27 Fixed, but, can cancel yearly and it just coverts to Options where I can book any week that has availability in any of the SVN resorts.  So, I don't know where I fall into all of this, but, my gut tells me I will be able to use the program especially since I see the 126,000 Bonvoy Points too.


yes you are in.  we did the same thing.  bought vistana from resale in 1997. sheraton bought our condos and we were offered to join their network for a small price and we did. so now we get 81k SO points.  we went to an owner's update today at marriott and they gave us what i think is erroneous information. i was texting with my timeshare salesman from sheraton desert oasis and he also said they were giving me incorrect information.  they had three of my units which I retroed into the network and have SO and count towards my elite status, as non weeks for becoming marriott points.  they said i needed to buy 1000 marriott points to get these last 3 units into their system.  my salesman from SDO said that is wrong. since i retroed them they are in the system.  i saw the printout and it clearly said N next to 3 of my units under the heading VC eligible.  SDO says it's a computer migration issue and it will be corrected to show any week that has been retroed will be eligible to convert to VC points.  they also did say that for a small spend until september any resale marriott weeks can move into VC points. 1000 points gets you one. and 3000k gets you 3 and 5k points gets you up to 7. 5k points costs $52k if anyone is interested in that.


----------



## ExploringTS

Questions below pertain to the scenario of a resale  2 bedroom lockoff week purchased at WKORVN (mandatory)
1.  Can we still split the two bedroom reservation into a studio and 1 bedroom?
2. Can we use staroptions to stay somewhere else  in the  vistana system?

 Wife and I are strongly considering buying a week on the resale market at either WKORV south or north and are trying to figure out what the downsides would be with the program merger.


----------



## rickandcindy23

ExploringTS said:


> Questions below pertain to the scenario of a resale  2 bedroom lockoff week purchased at WKORVN (mandatory)
> 1.  Can we still split the two bedroom reservation into a studio and 1 bedroom?
> 2. Can we use staroptions to stay somewhere else  in the  vistana system?
> 
> Wife and I are strongly considering buying a week on the resale market at either WKORV south or north and are trying to figure out what the downsides would be with the program merger.


It's an unknown, but I think with mandatory options, you are going to be in better shape. The Flex options, I wouldn't be so confident. 

We also bought resale 2 bedroom at WKORV.  It's not even transferred to us yet, but I was confident enough to buy it.  Marriott cannot take anything away from us, I don't think, anyway.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Yes. We own resale and have those options. Cannot convert to Bonvoy but not good value anyway. With high MF you are better off renting out and using cash to go somewhere else.


----------



## jabberwocky

ExploringTS said:


> Questions below pertain to the scenario of a resale  2 bedroom lockoff week purchased at WKORVN (mandatory)
> 1.  Can we still split the two bedroom reservation into a studio and 1 bedroom?
> 2. Can we use staroptions to stay somewhere else  in the  vistana system?
> 
> Wife and I are strongly considering buying a week on the resale market at either WKORV south or north and are trying to figure out what the downsides would be with the program merger.


To answer your first question, yes, you can book both sides separately, so you could stretch it out to two weeks if you would like.


----------



## grgs

Went to a general info session at Nanea. The sales rep gave me the DP points for our various units.  It matches prior reports.

Update: the SDO week that is listed at 81,000 SOs/1,500 DPs is a true plat 1 bedroom premium unit.  Not a 1-52 Gold Plus week.


----------



## TravelTime

grgs said:


> Went to a general info session at Nanea. The sales rep gave me the DP points for our various units.  It matches prior reports.



Those are great point values for some of the weeks.


----------



## PlayInTheDirt

grgs said:


> Went to a general info session at Nanea. The sales rep gave me the DP points for our various units.  It matches prior reports.


I'm assuming you own 'qualified' (either developer purchased or later requalified) weeks - correct?
And the current guess is 'non-qualified' (resale) WKV weeks are not eligible for converting to DC points?


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> Those are great point values for some of the weeks.


It certainly doesn't look like a great number for SDO 81K Gold Plus weeks. Most of those weeks can book 1-52. I can't recall the 81K Orlando number, but it looks like they pegged SDO quite a bit lower.


----------



## grgs

PlayInTheDirt said:


> I'm assuming you own 'qualified' (either developer purchased or later requalified) weeks - correct?
> And the current guess is 'non-qualified' (resale) WKV weeks are not eligible for converting to DC points?



Correct, all our weeks are either requalified or developer purchased.

I didn't ask about resale WKV weeks.


----------



## grgs

dioxide45 said:


> It certainly doesn't look like a great number for SDO 81K Gold Plus weeks. Most of those weeks can book 1-52. I can't recall the 81K Orlando number, but it looks like they pegged SDO quite a bit lower.


Just to clarify: the SDO week that is listed at 81,000 SOs/1,500 DPs is a true plat 1 bedroom premium unit.  Not a 1-52 Gold Plus week.  My bad for not saying that upfront.  I'll add that info to the other post.


----------



## dsmrp

grgs said:


> Just clarify: the SDO week that is listed at 81,000 SOs/1,500 DPs is a true plat 1 bedroom premium unit.  Not a 1-52 Gold Plus week.  My bad for not saying that upfront.  I'll add that info to the other post.


1500 DPs still seem low for a true plat, even if 1 bdrm.


----------



## grgs

TravelTime said:


> Those are great point values for some of the weeks.


The sales rep was pleasant and not agressive.  Her one angle was that we should buy Maui, as we'll be locked out of future SO trades once all the Vistana Maui owners convert to DPs.  The one thing I found ironic was that she kept saying we could get into WLR so easily via II getaways, and yet Marriott has assigned WLR a fairly high DP number (at least for Plat weeks).

That's one thing that has surprised me: WLR plat being assigned more points than WKV plat.


----------



## Ken555

dsmrp said:


> 1500 DPs still seem low for a true plat, even if 1 bdrm.



I’d say it’s an insult, not just “low”. They obviously don’t want these owners to exchange for DPs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dsmrp

Ken555 said:


> I’d say it’s an insult, not just “low”. They obviously don’t want these owners to exchange for DPs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yeah, the WKV 81K option unit (1 bdrm ?? or 2bdrm gold) is 1100 points more, not quite double. Marriott obviously values Westin a lot more than Sheraton. I have set my expectations pretty low for my SVR.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

grgs said:


> The sales rep was pleasant and not agressive.  Her one angle was that we should buy Maui, as we'll be locked out of future SO trades once all the Vistana Maui owners convert to DPs.  The one thing I found ironic was that she kept saying we could get into WLR so easily via II getaways, and yet Marriott has assigned WLR a fairly high DP number (at least for Plat weeks).
> 
> That's one thing that has surprised me: WLR plat being assigned more points than WKV plat.



Based on what I've heard so far, I don't think there will be a rush of Westin Maui owners converting to DP like the sales person stated:

1) Owners will have already made 12 month reservation for the following year for peak spring and summer dates by the time the DP Deposit deadline in October. This will allow for 12 and 8 month SO inventory for 1H use year to be in the system before the DPs are deposited.

2) An owner would need to be intentional about depositing DPs. This is not a natural act for many owners and they would need to learn how to trade DPs. However, there may be some long time owners who would like a change to different MVC resorts in the system so willing to undergo the effort to learn.

3) A Westin Maui owner is paying a high MF so it is risky to trade for an unknown DP unless they can see what they can trade into before they deposit.  Especially relevant for the OV and OF owners. Might be less risky to rent out their unit and then buy what they really want. But that entails effort too.

4) Resale owners cannot enroll DPs without requal so this inventory is going nowhere or they will use SOs to trade, will deposit in II or Third Key. It's sad that MVC is excluding this inventory from access by the MVC DP community but other value traders in II and Third Key will potentially get access to this inventory.

5) If you are an owner on the fence as to whether you will use, why deposit in October prior year when you can cancel within 60 days in use year when more of your travel plans are known? This also allows more time to attract a renter before you cancel.


----------



## rickandcindy23

CalGalTraveler said:


> Based on what I've heard so far, I don't think there will be a rush of Westin Maui owners converting to DP like the sales person stated:
> 
> 1) Owners will have already made 12 month reservation for the following year for peak spring and summer dates by the time the DP Deposit deadline in October. This will allow for 12 and 8 month SO inventory for 1H use year to be in the system before the DPs are deposited.
> 
> 2) An owner would need to be intentional about depositing DPs. This is not a natural act for many owners and they would need to learn how to trade DPs. However, there may be some long time owners who would like a change to different resorts in the system so will take the effort to learn.
> 
> 3) A Westin Maui owner is paying a high MF so it is risky to trade for an unknown DP unless they can see what they can trade into before they deposit.  Especially relevant for the OV and OF owners. Might be less risky to rent out their unit and then buy what they really want. But that entails effort.
> 
> 4) Resale owners cannot enroll DPs without requal so this inventory is going nowhere or they will use SOs to trade.


Agree with all of that.  Our resale oceanfront Maui is going to remain in SO's.  That is how I talked Rick into buying. It will be used as exactly what we bought.  It will be something our son will love to inherit.  Our daughter and other son wouldn't want the maintenance fees.


----------



## Erinaadyn

Just had Vistana owner update. 
offered 39,000 sheraton flex points and to move into program 2 resales for $13,500 after an owners discount and a $1500 credit for staying at a Marriott property before our reservation.Worth it? 
also own Harborside. Bought from developer. 
salesman couldn’t tell us how many destination points it will convert to in Marriott system. Still waiting for word from above. Anyone have an idea why?


----------



## dsmrp

CalGalTraveler said:


> Based on what I've heard so far, I don't think there will be a rush of Westin Maui owners converting to DP like the sales person stated:
> 
> 1) Owners will have already made 12 month reservation for the following year for peak spring and summer dates by the time the DP Deposit deadline in October. This will allow for 12 and 8 month SO inventory for 1H use year to be in the system before the DPs are deposited.
> 
> 2) An owner would need to be intentional about depositing DPs. This is not a natural act for many owners and they would need to learn how to trade DPs. However, there may be some long time owners who would like a change to different MVC resorts in the system so willing to undergo the effort to learn.
> 
> 3) A Westin Maui owner is paying a high MF so it is risky to trade for an unknown DP unless they can see what they can trade into before they deposit.  Especially relevant for the OV and OF owners. Might be less risky to rent out their unit and then buy what they really want. But that entails effort.
> 
> 4) Resale owners cannot enroll DPs without requal so this inventory is going nowhere or they will use SOs to trade.
> 
> 5) If you are an owner on the fence as to whether you will use, why deposit in October prior year when you can cancel within 60 days in use year when more of your travel plans are known?



I wonder how many Maui owners are resale compared to direct buy. On TUG, I think it is skewed to resale. With the high MFs, why would a Maui resale owner want to requalify to be direct?


----------



## VacationForever

Erinaadyn said:


> Just had Vistana owner update.
> offered 39,000 sheraton flex points and to move into program 2 resales for $13,500 after an owners discount and a $1500 credit for staying at a Marriott property before our reservation.Worth it?
> also own Harborside. Bought from developer.
> salesman couldn’t tell us how many destination points it will convert to in Marriott system. Still waiting for word from above. Anyone have an idea why?


What do you own, resort, size and season?


----------



## dioxide45

People who regularly use their home resort don't really matter in the equation. Their units were available for StarOptions anyway. The main issue will be, how many owners in Maui that usually book via StarOptions will instead elect Club Points? That is what will really determine if Maui inventory will go down in VSN, not those that stay at their home resort. Given the valuation that we are seeing for Maui weeks, it makes more sense to convert to Club Points in hope of getting more nights, even if booking more nights might be a problem.


----------



## dioxide45

rickandcindy23 said:


> Agree with all of that.  Our resale oceanfront Maui is going to remain in SO's.  That is how I talked Rick into buying. It will be used as exactly what we bought.  It will be something our son will love to inherit.  Our daughter and other son wouldn't want the maintenance fees.


But it won't really remain in SOs because you never have the intention to use it for StarOption reservations. Your week would never have been available for VSN reservations.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

dioxide45 said:


> People who regularly use their home resort don't really matter in the equation. Their units were available for StarOptions anyway. The main issue will be, how many owners in Maui that usually book via StarOptions will instead elect Club Points? That is what will really determine if Maui inventory will go down in VSN, not those that stay at their home resort. Given the valuation that we are seeing for Maui weeks, *it makes more sense to convert to Club Points in hope of getting more nights*, even if booking more nights might be a problem.



Interesting thought. Can you give an example of how many more nights are possible with DPs?

I could see this potentially working for an IV owner - if skim doesn't take too much. But if a Maui owner had a 2 bdrm couldn't they already lock-off to get another guaranteed owner priority week at the 12 month mark in a smaller unit without all the DP uncertainty and hassle? I believe that owner could also lock off one side and then deposit as an SO for rebooking at 8 months if they need less than a week without the skim. But this is riskier availability. I don't think you can deposit half a unit in DPs. Isn't it all or nothing?


----------



## sharr7

CalGalTraveler said:


> Interesting thought. Can you give an example of how many more nights are possible with DPs?
> 
> I could see this potentially working for an IV owner - if skim doesn't take too much. But if a Maui owner had a 2 bdrm couldn't they already lock-off to get another guaranteed owner priority week at the 12 month mark in a smaller unit without all the DP uncertainty and hassle? I believe that owner could also lock off one side and then deposit as an SO for rebooking at 8 months if they need less than a week without the skim. But this is riskier availability. I don't think you can deposit half a unit in DPs. I believe it is all or nothing.


Have people with non-OF views been told they're getting 8,000+DP? I have a hard time believing that would/could happen. If you own IV I would expect more like 5500 DP based MVC resorts there.

OF people could certainly trade in for more time but it probably has to be at a lower view category, which may not be attractive to people who bought OF.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Here is a potential benefit of DP:  If the DPs are high and a Maui owner wants cash out of their unit by renting to pay for other bills etc. One benefit of enrollment is to convert to DPs and then rent out your points instead of renting out the unit for a lot less hassle.

So if an OF owners has 8000(?) points, how much per point could they get by renting the points vs. renting a prime week on Redweek? Assuming .63 cents a point x 8000 points = $5040 which is about what you would get renting direct but a lot less hassle.

But if you own an EOY do you get 8000 points EOY?  or 4k annually. Can you combine the 4K across years?


----------



## Erinaadyn

VacationForever said:


> What do you own, resort, size and season?


149,000 Sheraton flex
95,700 Harborside 2 br lock off
2 resales: 95,700 2br.   virgin grand and 95,700 3br Lock off villages key west


----------



## Erinaadyn

Erinaadyn said:


> 149,000 Sheraton flex
> 95,700 Harborside 2 br lock off
> 2 resales: 95,700 2br.   virgin grand and 95,700 3br Lock off villages key west


Sorry that’s 2 br key west


----------



## damianinpa

Anyone know how many points a Florida Vistana 2 bedroom (not lock off) will get?  Today, 81,000 staroptions and 126,000 Bonvoy points.  Home season says Prime and VSN Season says Gold Plus under the 'what I own'.  Also, is there any indication of when official word will be send to all owners.  Seems like a lot of speculation right now on some of what is being reported from these owner updates.


----------



## VacationForever

Erinaadyn said:


> 149,000 Sheraton flex
> 95,700 Harborside 2 br lock off
> 2 resales: 95,700 2br.   virgin grand and 95,700 3br Lock off villages key west


I have not been tracking St John property.  2BR L/O SVV prime season should covert to around 2900 DC points.  I would probably do it for $13.5K to enroll the 2 resale weeks.  However, I would want to get everything in writing that these would all qualify for DC enrollment.


----------



## dioxide45

damianinpa said:


> Anyone know how many points a Florida Vistana 2 bedroom (not lock off) will get?  Today, 81,000 staroptions and 126,000 Bonvoy points.  Home season says Prime and VSN Season says Gold Plus under the 'what I own'.  Also, is there any indication of when official word will be send to all owners.  Seems like a lot of speculation right now on some of what is being reported from these owner updates.


Unless it is posted somewhere in these 93 pages, we don't have an answer. As to when official word will come out, no one knows the exact date either. We see June 30th, July 1st, but I would expect it to happen over a weekend. Everything is still primarily speculation, there is some small bits of real information in there but they seem to get lost in the speculation.


----------



## Negma

damianinpa said:


> Anyone know how many points a Florida Vistana 2 bedroom (not lock off) will get?  Today, 81,000 staroptions and 126,000 Bonvoy points.  Home season says Prime and VSN Season says Gold Plus under the 'what I own'.  Also, is there any indication of when official word will be send to all owners.  Seems like a lot of speculation right now on some of what is being reported from these owner updates.


We were told/shown SVR 81000 options = 2600 DC points


----------



## damianinpa

I just looked at their charts and 2600 is kinda Meh.  For example, I was able to use my 81K Staroptions to get an OceanFront studio in Maui Westin for 1 week.  I wouldn't have enough to do that in this new program.  Seems somewhat undervalued.  JMHO


----------



## Erinaadyn

damianinpa said:


> I just looked at their charts and 2600 is kinda Meh.  For example, I was able to use my 81K Staroptions to get an OceanFront studio in Maui Westin for 1 week.  I wouldn't have enough to do that in this new program.  Seems somewhat undervalued.  JMHO


Where can you look at MVC charts?


----------



## dioxide45

Erinaadyn said:


> Where can you look at MVC charts?


They haven't been published anywhere outside of being shown at a sales meeting.

_Edit, sorry. Misunderstood you to be asking for Vistana point charts. PP provided the current charts._


----------



## VacationForever

You can look at MVC DC charts for MVC resorts but not Vistana DC charts.


----------



## grgs

Try this link for 2023 point requirements: https://vacationpointexchange.com/pointschart/points_charts_2023.pdf


----------



## damianinpa

grgs said:


> Try this link for 2023 point requirements: https://vacationpointexchange.com/pointschart/points_charts_2023.pdf


Yeah, that is what I was looking at.  I assume this chart applies for anyone who owns and Vistana owners won't have different point charts.  I just took the potential 2600 points and matched up what I could get with those against this chart.


----------



## VacationForever

damianinpa said:


> Yeah, that is what I was looking at.  I assume this chart applies for anyone who owns and Vistana owners won't have different point charts.  I just took the potential 2600 points and matched up what I could get with those against this chart.


MVC point requirements vary wildly within the same resort and across locations.  MVC Orlando timeshares don't convert to many points either.  We don't normally use DC for expensive points reservations and instead exchange in II.  Yeah, kind of defeats the purpose of internal booking system.

We see ourselves continuing with SO reservations and the occasional II exchanges for our Vistana ownership.


----------



## dioxide45

damianinpa said:


> Yeah, that is what I was looking at.  I assume this chart applies for anyone who owns and Vistana owners won't have different point charts.  I just took the potential 2600 points and matched up what I could get with those against this chart.


The values to book will be the same regardless of what you own. I would expect a Vistana owner booking into Grande Vista to pay the same points as a Marriott owner doing the same. What will be different, and what these charts don't show, is how many points MVC will give you for your Vistana week.


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> It certainly doesn't look like a great number for SDO 81K Gold Plus weeks. Most of those weeks can book 1-52. I can't recall the 81K Orlando number, but it looks like they pegged SDO quite a bit lower.



SDO is low. All the others are pretty good. Lagunamar is a surprise since Mexico is a cheap market to visit.


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> SDO is low. All the others are pretty good. Lagunamar is a surprise since Mexico is a cheap market to visit.


SDO original developer sale price was very low and I believe, got factored into the DC conversion value.


----------



## TravelTime

dsmrp said:


> I wonder how many Maui owners are resale compared to direct buy. On TUG, I think it is skewed to resale. With the high MFs, why would a Maui resale owner want to requalify to be direct?



I own WKOVRN 2BR OF and would get 8350 DPs. With that many DPs, I could take 2-4 vacations in 2BR units with views using DPs. The MF per point only comes out to 38 cents per point. It really is a great opportunity. I suspect most WKOVR/N owners bought direct and will be thrilled with this option especially since they will have more choices, not fewer.


----------



## TravelTime

sharr7 said:


> Have people with non-OF views been told they're getting 8,000+DP? I have a hard time believing that would/could happen. If you own IV I would expect more like 5500 DP based MVC resorts there.
> 
> OF people could certainly trade in for more time but it probably has to be at a lower view category, which may not be attractive to people who bought OF.



I own with MVC qualified weeks and trust points and WKOVRN 2BR OF . I only use 2BRs with views. There are many 2BR with views for 3800 - 4200 DPs in MVC. Even in Hawaii (outside of Maui), you could get a 2BR ocean view/ocean front for approx 4500 to 5500 DPs and still have DPs leftover for another vacation. So I could get a minimum of 2 vacations in 2BRs that would be better than using my unit split as a 1BR and studio. I would never stay in a studio and 1BRs do not work for my family so this option is not attractive to me. I suspect many qualified Maui owners will really like the MVC system. 

I think most people on this thread are not knowledgeable about MVC. Once more qualified Vistana owners become educated about MVC, they are going to elect points. It may take a few years to get there but MVC is an excellent system. I have also owned Hyatt and Disney (many many points with Disney). I sold them both. I decided to consolidate with MVC.


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> Here is a potential benefit of DP:  If the DPs are high and a Maui owner wants cash out of their unit by renting to pay for other bills etc. One benefit of enrollment is to convert to DPs and then rent out your points instead of renting out the unit for a lot less hassle.
> 
> So if an OF owners has 8000(?) points, how much per point could they get by renting the points vs. renting a prime week on Redweek? Assuming .63 cents a point x 8000 points = $5040 which is about what you would get renting direct but a lot less hassle.
> 
> But if you own an EOY do you get 8000 points EOY?  or 4k annually. Can you combine the 4K across years?



I think what Tuggers forget is most owners do not want to rent their weeks or points. I certainly do not want the hassle and I am educated on this option. So just imagine all the people who are clueless about renting or who are like me and do not want to bother. People like myself are fine paying for vacations, even expensive vacations. I am not into maximizing things down to the penny. MVC and Vistana are cheap vacations to me. I think the quality is great for the price and I love lots of space and views.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

TravelTime said:


> I own with MVC qualified weeks and trust points and WKOVRN 2BR OF . I only use 2BRs with views. There are many 2BR with views for 3800 - 4200 DPs in MVC. Even in Hawaii (outside of Maui), you could get a 2BR ocean view/ocean front for approx 4500 to 5500 DPs and still have DPs leftover for another vacation. So I could get a minimum of 2 vacations in 2BRs that would be better than using my unit split as a 1BR and studio. I would never stay in a studio and 1BRs do not work for my family so this option is not attractive to me. I suspect many qualified Maui owners will really like the MVC system.
> 
> I think most people on this thread are not knowledgeable about MVC. Once more qualified Vistana owners become educated about MVC, they are going to elect points. It may take a few years to get there but MVC is an excellent system. I have also owned Hyatt and Disney (many many points with Disney). I sold them both. I decided to consolidate with MVC.



No doubt. most Vistana owners do not have first-hand experience how DPs work and this will be a hurdle for adoption (and partially why we have this thread.)

Are you saying that a WKORV or N OF owner could book Kauai,  Ko Olina, Spain, or Ritz St. Thomas 2 bdrm OV/OF for a week and then have points left over that they could rent out or book a second unit? If so, that is attractive because we struggle to add extended family or friends to our visits using Vistana and the option to easily rent out points to offset the cost of the unit is also attractive.

Is there good availability during peak for such DP reservations at these resorts?

How do DPs work for EOY - only given for the use year? or are points split across years (and can be combined). Can you deposit and borrow from a future year? Do you need to pay the DP fee for just the use year or the off year if you borrow?


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> No doubt. most Vistana owners do not have first-hand experience how DPs work and this will be a hurdle for adoption (and partially why we have this thread.)
> 
> Are you saying that a WKORV or N OF owner could book Kauai,  Ko Olina, Spain, or Ritz St. Thomas 2 bdrm OV/OF for a week and then have points left over that they could rent out or book a second unit? If so, that is attractive because we struggle to add extended family or friends to our visits using Vistana and the option to easily rent out points to offset the cost of the unit is also attractive.
> 
> Is there good availability during peak for such DP reservations at these resorts?
> 
> How do DPs work for EOY - only given for the use year? or are points split across years (and can be combined). Can you deposit and borrow from a future year? Do you need to pay the DP fee for just the use year or the off year if you borrow?


There will be some situations where a WKORV owner may get more Club Points and have some left over. Say they opt for Kierland, they may have a few hundred or a thousand left. Perhaps they opt for SDO, They may have several thousand left and get two weeks instead of one out of their one week. Right now, SDO Plat+ is the same number of StarOptions as a non OF WKORF, but it won't be that way with Club Points. 

As for every other year, Club Points are only given/elected in the use year. Just like the VSN fee, the Annual DC Club fee is paid every year.


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> No doubt. most Vistana owners do not have first-hand experience how DPs work and this will be a hurdle for adoption (and partially why we have this thread.)
> 
> Are you saying that a WKORV or N OF owner could book Kauai,  Ko Olina, Spain, or Ritz St. Thomas 2 bdrm OV/OF for a week and then have points left over that they could rent out or book a second unit? If so, that is attractive because we struggle to add extended family or friends to our visits using Vistana and the option to easily rent out points to offset the cost of the unit is also attractive.
> 
> Is there good availability during peak for such DP reservations at these resorts?
> 
> How do DPs work for EOY - only given for the use year? or are points split across years (and can be combined). Can you deposit and borrow from a future year? Do you need to pay the DP fee for just the use year or the off year if you borrow?



Lots of good questions. 

So for WKOVRN 2BR OF, we will get 8325 DPs EOY in its use year. I have another EOY that I get points for so to me, it works out just fine whether they are annual or EOY. For status, MVC averages the points as if they were annual. So that means 8325 are divided in half to figure out your status level but awarded in the usage year. Since you can bank and borrow points, the year awarded makes less difference. It does help that I am Presidential so I get 1.5 years to use the points after I bank them. There is no fee to bank points. I have never borrowed so I am not sure about that. I have not heard of a fee for borrowing.

In terms of how many vacations you can get from 8325 DPs, it is really quite a lot depending on the unit size, season, view and location. A few examples of things I have booked using DPs:

4250 DPs: Marco Island 2 BR Gulf front in June (there are many view categories here but this is the highest view category, which I booked for next summer)

5725 DPs: Ko Olina 2 BR Ocean view (equivalent to ocean front at WKOVRN) in summer (can go as low as 4925 DPs in shoulder season)

3675 DPs: Ritz Carlton St Thomas 2BR suite (all oceanfront at this resort) in summer - on our way here now, assuming we ever get here. Our plane has mechanical difficulties!

5875 DPs: Waiohai Beach Club in Kauai 2 BR Ocean View in summer (can go as low as 5025 in shoulder seasons…however most people think island view at this resort is just fine…I think it’s because ocean views at this resort are not as incredible like at other resorts so island view saves about 1000 DPs or so)

For Marbella in Spain, the 2BRs are mostly high 2000s to low 3000s in DPs with a few high weeks in the summer being a little over 4000 DPs. Just giving some more examples to show how many vacations you can take using 8325 DPs.

For the above, you use a lot fewer DPs if you chose a different view or unit size and more points if you choose a higher season. But very few locations are going to be over 6000-7000 DPs even in high season. Maui is probably the highest in the program.

You can take a look at the points charts here:


			https://vacationpointexchange.com/pointschart/points_charts_2023.pdf
		


Nowadays, I book when the booking window opens to get exactly what I want. Prior to Covid, I was not having to worry quite as much about the booking window. 

To me, the most attractive part of qualifying my Vistana week is I can get more vacations at more destinations in what I consider to be equivalent view types in 2BR units for 8325 DPs. If I lock off my 2BR at WKOVRN, then I only get a 1BR and a studio. If I want to visit other VSE resorts, I need to use SOs at 8 months when most inventory I would desire would be unavailable. I also prefer booking at 13 or 12 months, depending on when the resort opens its inventory for booking with DPs.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Thanks @TravelTime for the detailed explanation. Do all DPs get 13 month booking preference? or do you need to qualify for Elite status?


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks @TravelTime for the detailed explanation. Do all DPs get 13 month booking preference? or do you need to qualify for Elite status?



MVC goes by the benefits level chart:


			https://www.marriottvacationclub.com/common/cms/mvcau/pdfs/benefits-at-a-glance-chart-US.pdf
		


Everyone gets some level of booking at 13 months but the number of nights varies by level.

Most resorts are available to book at 13 months but some do not release inventory until 12 months out. Some split the inventory between 13 and 12 months. It varies a bit but after awhile of reading TUG and playing around with the booking system at 13 and 12 months to see what is released, you get the hang of it.


----------



## rickandcindy23

CalGalTraveler said:


> No doubt. most Vistana owners do not have first-hand experience how DPs work and this will be a hurdle for adoption (and partially why we have this thread.)
> 
> Are you saying that a WKORV or N OF owner could book Kauai,  Ko Olina, Spain, or Ritz St. Thomas 2 bdrm OV/OF for a week and then have points left over that they could rent out or book a second unit? If so, that is attractive because we struggle to add extended family or friends to our visits using Vistana and the option to easily rent out points to offset the cost of the unit is also attractive.
> 
> Is there good availability during peak for such DP reservations at these resorts?
> 
> How do DPs work for EOY - only given for the use year? or are points split across years (and can be combined). Can you deposit and borrow from a future year? Do you need to pay the DP fee for just the use year or the off year if you borrow?


I hope those who do not understand DP's and how they work find TUG.  Don't take a salesperson's word for anything.  The salespeople are still our enemies as resale buyers who are wise to the lies.  Hey, that rhymes.


----------



## rickandcindy23

TravelTime said:


> Lots of good questions.
> 
> So for WKOVRN 2BR OF, we will get 8325 DPs EOY in its use year. I have another EOY that I get points for so to me, it works out just fine whether they are annual or EOY. For status, MVC averages the points as if they were annual. So that means 8325 are divided in half to figure out your status level but awarded in the usage year. Since you can bank and borrow points, the year awarded makes less difference. It does help that I am Presidential so I get 1.5 years to use the points after I bank them. There is no fee to bank points. I have never borrowed so I am not sure about that. I have not heard of a fee for borrowing.
> 
> In terms of how many vacations you can get from 8325 DPs, it is really quite a lot depending on the unit size, season, view and location. A few examples of things I have booked using DPs:
> 
> 4250 DPs: Marco Island 2 BR Gulf front in June (there are many view categories here but this is the highest view category, which I booked for next summer)
> 
> 5725 DPs: Ko Olina 2 BR Ocean view (equivalent to ocean front at WKOVRN) in summer (can go as low as 4925 DPs in shoulder season)
> 
> 3675 DPs: Ritz Carlton St Thomas 2BR suite (all oceanfront at this resort) in summer - on our way here now, assuming we ever get here. Our plane has mechanical difficulties!
> 
> 5875 DPs: Waiohai Beach Club in Kauai 2 BR Ocean View in summer (can go as low as 5025 in shoulder seasons…however most people think island view at this resort is just fine…I think it’s because ocean views at this resort are not as incredible like at other resorts so island view saves about 1000 DPs or so)
> 
> For Marbella in Spain, the 2BRs are mostly high 2000s to low 3000s in DPs with a few high weeks in the summer being a little over 4000 DPs. Just giving some more examples to show how many vacations you can take using 8325 DPs.
> 
> For the above, you use a lot fewer DPs if you chose a different view or unit size and more points if you choose a higher season. But very few locations are going to be over 6000-7000 DPs even in high season. Maui is probably the highest in the program.
> 
> You can take a look at the points charts here:
> 
> 
> https://vacationpointexchange.com/pointschart/points_charts_2023.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Nowadays, I book when the booking window opens to get exactly what I want. Prior to Covid, I was not having to worry quite as much about the booking window.
> 
> To me, the most attractive part of qualifying my Vistana week is I can get more vacations at more destinations in what I consider to be equivalent view types in 2BR units for 8325 DPs. If I lock off my 2BR at WKOVRN, then I only get a 1BR and a studio. If I want to visit other VSE resorts, I need to use SOs at 8 months when most inventory I would desire would be unavailable. I also prefer booking at 13 or 12 months, depending on when the resort opens its inventory for booking with DPs.


What a great explanation of why you want to convert.  I am impressed with all of that.  But you obviously bought Westin North Oceanfront from the developer.  We are resale oceanfront owners  We still paid a lot for us because we are not rich people.  I don't think we can be talked into anything that will cost us big bucks.  I am not an easy sell on anything.


----------



## kozykritter

Just finished a presentation at MVC San Diego Pulse. For reference I own direct-purchased Sheraton Flex, 3* and don't own any MVC. Here is the information I took away from the presentation ... please don't shoot the messenger ...

Things we've already heard:
-Launch planned for early half of July...maybe July 1st but could be later
-Vistana ownership (see below about resales) will be allowed to enroll in DC for no fee and elect DP in a given year if they wish.
-If a Vistana owner decides not to enroll in DC they will pay the new all-inclusive VSN club fees based upon elite levels we've seen mentioned here (if they are VSN eligible) and function only in the VSN system
-If a Vistana owner decides to enroll in DC, they will instead pay all-inclusive MVC club fees (same rates as VSN) based upon elite levels and have their online account moved to MVC (and MVC's corporate II account too, I'm guessing)
-Vistana elite 3* 4* 5* levels will track to Executive, Presidential and Chairman if ownership enrolled in DC
-Enrolled Vistana owners will elect to convert to DP for following year by September/October of current year, same as MVC enrolled weeks owners

Things that were new to me as a non-MVC owner (the microdynamics of which are still unclear):
- When a Vistana owner elects DP, their week or flex options (underlying inventory of Vistana/Marriott's choosing) go into a bucket that can then be booked by MVC enrolled week owners that elected DP and by DC trust owners. (This bucket also has inventory from MVC enrolled week owners that elected DP...is the MVC exchange, perhaps?)
-Vistana elected DPs will book from this bucket containing inventory from MVC enrolled week owners electing DP and of course Vistana elected DP inventory (but why would you book backwards to Vistana after the skim?)
-When a DC trust owner books inventory from this bucket, an equivalent amount of DC trust ownership (of MVC's choosing!) gets transferred over into this same bucket as part of the exchange and becomes bookable as well.
-If you only own Vistana, this bucket is the only inventory that will be available for you to book in the MVC system (II exchanges aside).
-If you own both Vistana and any amount of MVC DC trust points, you will have access to the entire DC trust inventory for the combined points of both your Vistana elected ownership and the MVC DC trust points you own (the much-hyped hybrid account).

Vistana Resales:
-I told them my online peeps were most concerned about how resales would be treated, particularly unqualified mandatory resales. They said that a MVC sales exec told them in April that they still hadn't quite yet figured out how they were going to handle Vistana resales (nothing about specific types). The salesperson suspects they have decided how since then but nothing has been communicated down the chain so far. Sorry I couldn't give more info!

Since I am 3*, happy with the Vistana system and will be able to enroll my ownership in the DC with elite status, they verbally recognized that I didn't *need* to buy anything so their angle was that if I wanted to have access to DC trust inventory (with all my ownership) to avoid reservation frustration from just booking MVC exchange inventory, I should buy a small amount of DC points now (1000 and 1500 were offered). I told them they made a very good point but I wasn't going to invest $14K-$17K now (plus interest and more maintenance fees) as an insurance policy against a potential future problem. I already travel to the MVC properties I want through II exchanges, getaways and point rentals from MVC owners so not too concerned. I told them I would buy resale points in the future if needed including junk fees and they said they don't have the same status as DC points, which confused me based upon what I know from TUG but hey, could just be sour grapes from them!


----------



## dsmrp

kozykritter said:


> Just finished a presentation at MVC San Diego Pulse. For reference I own direct-purchased Sheraton Flex, 3* and don't own any MVC. Here is the information I took away from the presentation (old and new) ... please don't shoot the messenger ...
> 
> Things we've already heard:
> -Launch planned for early half of July...maybe July 1st but could be later
> -Vistana ownership (see below about resales) will be allowed to enroll in DC for no fee and elect DP in a given year if they wish.
> -If a Vistana owner decides not to enroll in DC they will pay the new all-inclusive VSN club fees based upon elite levels we've seen mentioned here (if they are VSN eligible) and function only in the VSN system
> -If a Vistana owner decides to enroll in DC, they will instead pay all-inclusive MVC club fees (same rates as VSN) based upon elite levels and have their online account moved to MVC (and MVC's corporate II account too, I'm guessing)
> -Vistana elite 3* 4* 5* levels will track to Executive, Presidential and Chairman if ownership enrolled in DC
> -Enrolled Vistana owners will elect to convert to DP for following year by September/October of current year, same as MVC enrolled weeks owners
> 
> Things that were new to me as a non-MVC owner (the microdynamics of which are still unclear):
> - When a Vistana owner elects DP, their week or flex options (underlying inventory of Vistana/Marriott's choosing) go into a bucket that can then be booked by MVC enrolled owners that elected DP and by DC trust owners. (This bucket may also be the same one where inventory from MVC enrolled owners that elect DP goes...is this the MVC exchange, perhaps?)
> -Vistana elected DPs can only be used to book inventory from this MVC enrolled owners electing DP bucket (and Vistana elected DP but why would you book backwards after the skim?)
> -When a DC trust owner books Vistana inventory from this bucket, an equivalent amount of DC trust ownership (of MVC's choosing!) goes into this same bucket for Vistana elected DP's (and probably MVC enrolled owners electing to book DP)
> -If you only own Vistana, this bucket is the only inventory that will be available to you to book in the MVC system (I told them I had seen it mentioned here that sometimes DC trust inventory has been used to fund MVC exchange transactions and they said yes, sometimes they do that to fulfill a reservation...still don't understand that vague response)
> -If you own both Vistana and any amount of MVC DC trust points, you will have access to the entire DC trust inventory for the combined points of both your Vistana elected ownership and the MVC DC trust points you own (the much-hyped hybrid account and why they suggested I buy some points at today's prices to avoid the frustration of limited inventory going forward).
> 
> Vistana Resales:
> -I told them my online peeps were most concerned about how resales would be treated, particularly unqualified mandatory resales. They said that a MVC sales exec told them in April that they still hadn't quite yet figured out how they were going to handle Vistana resales (nothing about specific types). The salesperson suspects they have decided how since then but nothing has been communicated down the chain so far. Sorry I couldn't give more info!
> 
> Since I am 3*, happy with the Vistana system and will be able to enroll my ownership in the DC with elite status, they verbally recognized that I didn't *need* to buy anything so their angle was that if I wanted to have access to DC trust inventory (with all my ownership) to avoid reservation frustration from just booking MVC exchange inventory, I should buy a small amount of DC points now (1000 and 1500 were offered). I told them they made a very good point but I wasn't going to invest $14K-$17K now (plus interest and more maintenance fees) as an insurance policy against a potential future problem. I already travel to the MVC properties I want through II exchanges, getaways and point rentals from MVC owners so not too concerned. I told them I would buy resales points in the future if needed and they said they don't have the same status as DC points, which confused me based upon what I know from TUG but hey, could be sour grapes!


Thx for update report.
The Vistana elected  DP bucket kinda sounds like a chicken n'egg situation with DC trust and MVC pts elected weeks. But probably not so bad, as there are many more MVC owners. Still have to have a little faith that the resort & time you want to exchange into will be available a little later.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Marriott's Custom House has really high fees for the lousy DP's you get for it.  We owned two weeks and loved it, but the fees were too much.  We sold through Marriott.


----------



## kozykritter

dsmrp said:


> Thx for update report.
> The Vistana elected  DP bucket kinda sounds like a chicken n'egg situation with DC trust and MVC pts elected weeks. But probably not so bad, as there are many more MVC owners. Still have to have a little faith that the resort & time you want to exchange into will be available a little later.


Agreed!  They quoted a few stats...twice as many MVC owners than Vistana owners. 45% MVC weeks owners, 55% DC trust owners....I have no real context for that last one.


----------



## VacationForever

We are MVC (Presidential level) and Vistana owners and are happy with both.


----------



## timsi

kozykritter said:


> Vistana Resales:
> -I told them my online peeps were most concerned about how resales would be treated, particularly unqualified mandatory resales. They said that a MVC sales exec told them in April that they still hadn't quite yet figured out how they were going to handle Vistana resales (nothing about specific types). The salesperson suspects they have decided how since then but nothing has been communicated down the chain so far. Sorry I couldn't give more info!



To summarize what owners have been told so far:
- resales will not be enrolled in MVC (mandatory or voluntary)
- mandatory resales will be allowed to enroll in MVC
- they have not figured out yet how to handle Vistana resales


----------



## rickandcindy23

VacationForever said:


> We are MVC (Presidential level) and Vistana owners and are happy with both.


Are you going to keep them in separate pots, or are you going to be tempted to enroll Vistana into DP. 

What is it that you own?


----------



## VacationForever

rickandcindy23 said:


> Are you going to keep them in separate pots, or are you going to be tempted to enroll Vistana into DP.
> 
> What is it that you own?


Our Vistana ownership are already qualified so no additional enrollment would be needed. We intend to continue to use SOs and II to trade, unless we have a need for more DC points to book a specific DC reservation.


----------



## dsmrp

kozykritter said:


> Just finished a presentation at MVC San Diego Pulse. For reference I own direct-purchased Sheraton Flex, 3* and don't own any MVC. Here is the information I took away from the presentation ... please don't shoot the messenger ...
> 
> Things we've already heard:
> -Launch planned for early half of July...maybe July 1st but could be later
> -Vistana ownership (see below about resales) will be allowed to enroll in DC for no fee and elect DP in a given year if they wish.
> -If a Vistana owner decides not to enroll in DC they will pay the new all-inclusive VSN club fees based upon elite levels we've seen mentioned here (if they are VSN eligible) and function only in the VSN system
> -*If a Vistana owner decides to enroll in DC*, they will instead pay all-inclusive MVC club fees (same rates as VSN) based upon elite levels and *have their online account moved to MVC (and MVC's corporate II account too*, I'm guessing)
> -Vistana elite 3* 4* 5* levels will track to Executive, Presidential and Chairman if ownership enrolled in DC
> -Enrolled Vistana owners will elect to convert to DP for following year by September/October of current year, same as MVC enrolled weeks owners



The bolded part is confusing and concerns me.  Will VSN members electing to enroll in the DC be able to retain their VSN account and have at the end of the day, 2 accounts: 1 VSN and a new MVC ?  Or will they only have the MVC?   If MVC IT truly "_moves_" the account, then there will be no VSN account to make star options reservations in the years that the owner doesn't elect DC points. Hopefully it is just an ambiguity in terms, and MVC will "_copy_" the VSN online account details to create a MVC account. So VSN members enrolled in DC will have 2 accounts ??


----------



## kozykritter

dsmrp said:


> The bolded part is confusing and concerns me.  Will VSN members electing to enroll in the DC be able to retain their VSN account and have at the end of the day, 2 accounts: 1 VSN and a new MVC ?  Or will they only have the MVC?   If MVC IT truly "_moves_" the account, then there will be no VSN account to make star options reservations on the years that the owner doesn't elect DC points. Hopefully it is just an ambiguity in terms, and MVC will "_copy_" the VSN online account details to create a MVC account.


Yep, confusing for sure but in one of the posts here or in the same thread in the MVC forum they said that Vistana enrolled ownership would have a Marriott account that would show a Vistana bucket separate from any elected DPs or Marriott ownership. It's been my theory all along that they are moving the VSN to Marriott's IT platform so even if you log in through vistana.com, you would still end up in the back end of Marriott IT platform where all SO exchanges would take place. To me this explains the reissuance of existing reservations with new numbers and the various outages of both systems along with the subsequent upgrades.

The one question that popped into my head that didn't get asked was what if you enroll one of your Vistana ownerships in the DC but not a second one. Do they migrate your account to MVC regardless? Hopefully we'll find answers out a month from now if not sooner.


----------



## dlca1

I have a 2Bedroom Ocean View WKORVN obtained via resale

The flexibility of trading for Marriott locations or renting out unused weeks via DP sounds attractive.

What are the current best options to requalify this week? What would I need to spend?


----------



## byeloe

dlca1 said:


> I have a 2Bedroom Ocean View WKORVN obtained via resale
> 
> The flexibility of trading for Marriott locations or renting out unused weeks via DP sounds attractive.
> 
> What are the current best options to requalify this week? What would I need to spend?


a$10000 purchase of one of the flex products


----------



## TravelTime

rickandcindy23 said:


> What a great explanation of why you want to convert.  I am impressed with all of that.  But you obviously bought Westin North Oceanfront from the developer.  We are resale oceanfront owners  We still paid a lot for us because we are not rich people.  I don't think we can be talked into anything that will cost us big bucks.  I am not an easy sell on anything.



I bought resale. I would need to buy more points to re-qualify my week.


----------



## byeloe

TravelTime said:


> I bought resale. I would need to buy more points to re-qualify my week.


It will likely be less $ if you requalify before the rollout, with a $10000 Westin Flex purchase


----------



## lorenmd

damianinpa said:


> Anyone know how many points a Florida Vistana 2 bedroom (not lock off) will get?  Today, 81,000 staroptions and 126,000 Bonvoy points.  Home season says Prime and VSN Season says Gold Plus under the 'what I own'.  Also, is there any indication of when official word will be send to all owners.  Seems like a lot of speculation right now on some of what is being reported from these owner updates.


2600 for a 2 bedroom non lockoff sheraton vistana resort.


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## Biglou1228

I am currently at the Westin Lagunamar and had a presentation the other day.  We accumulated enough resales and did what we needed to bring them into the system so that we are 5*.  Based on the presentation that I was given, I am somewhat encouraged at the moment that for my situation, it will be a positive.  We weren't told we had to do anything to utilize the knew system other than making a decision to convert options to DC points, which sounds like we could do once a year.  I own one MVC unit now, which we have the same option, use the week, trade into II or convert to DC points.  Was told that there would be no more Westin 5* or membership levels and everything would be converted to the marriott platform, of which we would be moved to their top level.  Lots of potential flexibility with the new plan, none of which I thought was worth losing sleep over.  However, I do appreciate that everyones situation isn't the same and if we hadn't brought all of our resales into the system, I may be a bit more concerned.  But be that as it may, we still plan on just using our options at Lagunamar, which won't be a problem.


----------



## grgs

lorenmd said:


> 2600 for a 2 bedroom non lockoff sheraton vistana resort.



Not to start any fights, but it does seem to me that a true Plat 2 bedroom LO at SDO should at least be on par with a non-LO 2 bedroom at SVR.  For those not wishing to plow through earlier posts, I was told my SDO unit would be assigned 2375 DPs.

No worries, though, I'll use SDO for SO reservations or rental.  If I do want to try out the DP system, I'd use one of our WLR units.


----------



## grgs

Biglou1228 said:


> I am currently at the Westin Lagunamar and had a presentation the other day.  We accumulated enough resales and did what we needed to bring them into the system so that we are 5*.  Based on the presentation that I was given, I am somewhat encouraged at the moment that for my situation, it will be a positive.



If you don't mind sharing, what do you own and how many DPs are being assigned to your units?


----------



## Biglou1228

grgs said:


> If you don't mind sharing, what do you own and how many DPs are being assigned to your units?


I have three 2bedroom Plat units with some vistana sheraton and some vistana flex options, which was what we bought to retro everything.  We wound up with over 700K options when it was all said and done.  I was kind of surprised by the fact that my sales person admitted that she does the very same thing and was impressed with what I've done without ever buying a retail week from them.  As far as the conversion amounts, I should have taken a picture, but I was generally pleased and trusted what they were telling me so I didn't feel compelled to do so.  It shouldn't be a surprise that the vistana sheraton is not going to convert well, flex options were better, but the Lagunamar was around 5,250 - 5,500 points if my memory serves me correct.  I was going to have just under 25,000 points if I traded everything.  They made a quick attempt to get me to round it up to 25,000 and I said no of course.


----------



## Negma

grgs said:


> If you don't mind sharing, what do you own and how many DPs are being assigned to your units?


This was on our printout. I did not include multiple weeks as they are the same.

MVC Points2600SVREY4050WKV-PlatinumEY3100WKORVNeoy-oddIV3100WKORVNeoy-evenOV3150WMH-PlatinumEY


----------



## grgs

Biglou1228 said:


> It shouldn't be a surprise that the vistana sheraton is not going to convert well, flex options were better, but the Lagunamar was around 5,250 - 5,500 points if my memory serves me correct.



Thanks!

I think there have been several reports that 2 bed Plat WLR will be assigned 4950 DPs, which is what I was also told. If the point assignment ends up higher, I'll be surprised, but happy!


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Negma said:


> This was on our printout. I did not include multiple weeks as they are the same.
> 
> MVC Points2600SVREY4050WKV-PlatinumEY3100WKORVNeoy-oddIV3100WKORVNeoy-evenOV3150WMH-PlatinumEY



Should we assume that the EOY's are half of the annual DPs? I am surprised the IV is valued the same as an OV.


----------



## Negma

CalGalTraveler said:


> Should we assume that the EOY's are half of the annual DPs? I am surprised the IV is valued the same as an OV.


that is correct


----------



## CarpeDiem65

Negma said:


> This was on our printout. I did not include multiple weeks as they are the same.
> 
> MVC Points2600SVREY4050WKV-PlatinumEY3100WKORVNeoy-oddIV3100WKORVNeoy-evenOV3150WMH-PlatinumEY


At our presentation, I was told our WDW-Platinum EY (148,100) would convert to 3,725 MVC Points. I could understand WKV might convert at a bit higher value but why would WMH convert to only 3,150 (15% less) ?


----------



## Negma

Told or shown? My came from an “official” looking print out (sarcasm and cynical hat is always on). Why different, who knows, one newer? Don’t know


----------



## CPNY

What happened to June 1st? Or was it July 1st?


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> What happened to June 1st? Or was it July 1st?


It was always mentioned as late second quarter. Now we are seeing mention of July which is third quarter.


----------



## VacationForever

CarpeDiem65 said:


> At our presentation, I was told our WDW-Platinum EY (148,100) would convert to 3,725 MVC Points. I could understand WKV might convert at a bit higher value but why would WMH convert to only 3,150 (15% less) ?


Probably because the original developer pricing for WMH was lower than WDW.


----------



## remowidget

..


----------



## remowidget

Erinaadyn said:


> Worth it??


It depends upon you. Do you want the star options? If so, maybe. If not, no.


----------



## SandyPGravel

A common theme I have noticed from reading about Vistana-owner updates is the MVC sales staff stating/implying that to play in the DP pool, even if you are 5* maxed out with a gazillion SO you need to buy a small package 1000 DP(as an example.)  But, anyone with current DP points and no Vistana ownership, will be able to book an available Vistana week that's been added to the pool (either through deposit or MVC acquiring weeks), without a required additional purchase?  

Am I understanding what is being relayed or am I way out in left field?  I realize many sales staff will say anything to make a buck, but I'm wondering if the MVC-owner updates are spinning a similar tale regarding buying more to be able to access the Vistana weeks?


----------



## dioxide45

SandyPGravel said:


> A common theme I have noticed from reading about Vistana-owner updates is the MVC sales staff stating/implying that to play in the DP pool, even if you are 5* maxed out with a gazillion SO you need to buy a small package 1000 DP(as an example.)  But, anyone with current DP points and no Vistana ownership, will be able to book an available Vistana week that's been added to the pool (either through deposit or MVC acquiring weeks), without a required additional purchase?
> 
> Am I understanding what is being relayed or am I way out in left field?  I realize many sales staff will say anything to make a buck, but I'm wondering if the MVC-owner updates are spinning a similar tale regarding buying more to be able to access the Vistana weeks?


Based on some of the earlier reports, there will be no buy in or fee for Vistana owners that are eligible. That could change, but I suspect most people being told that are done so in order to attempt for the salesperson to get a sale, nothing more.


----------



## dsmrp

SandyPGravel said:


> A common theme I have noticed from reading about Vistana-owner updates is the MVC sales staff stating/implying that to play in the DP pool, even if you are 5* maxed out with a gazillion SO you need to buy a small package 1000 DP(as an example.)  But, anyone with current DP points and no Vistana ownership, will be able to book an available Vistana week that's been added to the pool (either through deposit or MVC acquiring weeks), without a required additional purchase?
> 
> Am I understanding what is being relayed or am I way out in left field?  I realize many sales staff will say anything to make a buck, but I'm wondering if the MVC-owner updates are spinning a similar tale regarding buying more to be able to access the Vistana weeks?


What I recall from previous posts is buy DC pts in order to access inventory in the DC *trust*. Otherwise the DC inventory available to Vistana owners electing for DC, are what other Marriott owners have relinquished for DC points. These units should be in a separate pool than the trust.

I think previously Vistana sales were not able to sell DC points. But after the final rollout later this month or next, that's all they'll be selling.


----------



## aimersyo

grgs said:


> It sounds like there were two separate interactions.  The first person, a few months ago, said that they wouldn't be able to access Marriott resorts.  The second person, phone call today, said that they would be able to access Marriott resorts. She also gave the # of DPs.  She didn't contradict herself, but did contradict the person from a few months back.
> 
> Anyway, tomorrow is June 1.  Will we get a formal announcement?  LOL!


Correct, when I as at WDW, the sales guy was trying to get me to buy more flex options (sorry, I still don't know all the lingo), and at that time he told me I would not have access to the MDC unless i bought into it.  I was very annoyed at the time, because it definitely felt as though he would say anything misleading to get me to buy more.

Last week I got an unsolicited owners call which contradicted what I was told a few months ago.  That my current Flex Options absolutely will be able to be used at the Marriott properties.


----------



## kozykritter

Hold on to your hats for this one!  I have MVC Summit Watch and Mountainside stays over the next three weeks and received an advance call from the local resort marketing people inviting me to a sales presentation during my Park City stays. The super nice lady kept referring to me as a Marriott owner even though I only own Sheraton Flex and for the incentive they offered me Bonvoy points, a visa card or *Marriott DP*. I told her that I don't currently own MVC and have no Marriott account to put DP into as they haven't launched the new program so I haven't enrolled my Flex into DC to create an account. She told me that I have already been assigned a Marriott owner number and have an account with them that she was looking at right now! It's just not funded with my ownership yet. I nearly fell off my chair...mind blown! 

With the "merger" (her words), they have reached the point where we Vistana-ites are considered Marriott owners, all without lifting a finger on our part. Of course we can't yet use their system but those days are fast approaching. This explains why she knew so much about my reservations, room preferences, recent sales presentations, etc, something I never experienced at those properties as an exchanger or renter. She said DP pops up now as an incentive option for me because of this, and if I chose it, it would go into that owner account and be waiting for me when I gained access (after the launch).

It actually felt good to learn all this, like the stepchild that suddenly gets recognized by the family and warmly invited to the table. I guess this supports my ongoing theory that all Vistana accounts will be/have been migrated onto Marriott's IT platform and will be accessed there, even if through backend access via Vistana.com. This information creates more questions like will I be able to access and use the DP in 2022, even if I don't enroll my Flex into DC? Someone mentioned they were told that Vistana Elite levels were going away and everyone would have Marriott Elite levels instead...this would make sense for them creating Marriott owner accounts as I'm a 3*. So many questions!


----------



## emeryjre

How soon will all this be implemented and the new program be in writing?  A week in June has already gone by


----------



## kozykritter

emeryjre said:


> How soon will all this be implemented and the new program be in writing?  A week in June has already gone by


I was told early July at a presentation on Saturday. The sales people had been told July 1st by higher ups but that is subject to change. You probably won't see anything in writing until it launches. That is why this thread has 96 pages...to speculate!


----------



## emeryjre

At some point I read early June in this 96 page thread.  So now I will ask again around July 7th.


----------



## dsmrp

kozykritter said:


> Hold on to your hats for this one!  I have MVC Summit Watch and Mountainside stays over the next three weeks and received an advance call from the local resort marketing people inviting me to a sales presentation during my Park City stays. The super nice lady kept referring to me as a Marriott owner even though I only own Sheraton Flex and for the incentive they offered me Bonvoy points, a visa card or *Marriott DP*. I told her that I don't currently own MVC and have no Marriott account to put DP into as they haven't launched the new program so I haven't enrolled my Flex into DC to create an account. She told me that I have already been assigned a Marriott owner number and have an account with them that she was looking at right now! It's just not funded with my ownership yet. I nearly fell off my chair...mind blown!
> 
> With the "merger" (her words), they have reached the point where we Vistana-ites are considered Marriott owners, all without lifting a finger on our part. Of course we can't yet use their system but those days are fast approaching. This explains why she knew so much about my reservations, room preferences, recent sales presentations, etc, something I never experienced at those properties as an exchanger or renter. She said DP pops up now as an incentive option for me because of this, and if I chose it, it would go into that owner account and be waiting for me when I gained access (after the launch).
> 
> It actually felt good to learn all this, like the stepchild that suddenly gets recognized by the family and warmly invited to the table. I guess this supports my ongoing theory that all Vistana accounts will be/have been migrated onto Marriott's IT platform and will be accessed there, even if through backend access via Vistana.com. This information creates more questions like will I be able to access and use the DP in 2022, even if I don't enroll my Flex into DC? Someone mentioned they were told that Vistana Elite levels were going away and everyone would have Marriott Elite levels instead...this would make sense for them creating Marriott owner accounts as I'm a 3*. So many questions!



Hmm, if we're considered " Marriott owners", 
would be great if that extended to Marriott preference for II exchanges .

I have a VSN stay in about a month.
Hope the concierge contacts us with a good update mtg offer


----------



## Eric B

dsmrp said:


> Hmm, if we're considered " Marriott owners",
> would be great if that extended to Marriott preference for II exchanges .
> 
> I have a VSN stay in about a month.
> Hope the concierge contacts us with a good update mtg offer



Well, shouldn't we unwashed resale Vistana owners also be "Marriott owners" now, too?


----------



## kozykritter

Eric B said:


> Well, shouldn't we unwashed resale Vistana owners also be "Marriott owners" now, too?


Haha. I don't think there are any poor relations in this game. Anyone that is a Vistana owner is now a Marriott owner. How that functions might be the only difference


----------



## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> Haha. I don't think there are any poor relations in this game. Anyone that is a Vistana owner is now a Marriott owner. How that functions might be the only difference



Roger that.  I just wonder how much more it'll wind up costing the operations side to keep out the mandatory resale owners and mandatory resale ownerships of folks with both.  Think I'll just be happy to keep using the VSN if they lock me out of the rest in any case.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> Our Vistana ownership are already qualified so no additional enrollment would be needed. We intend to continue to use SOs and II to trade, unless we have a need for more DC points to book a specific DC reservation.



Your situation is perfect. You have the best of all worlds since your Vistana week in already enrolled.


----------



## remowidget

dsmrp said:


> Hmm, if we're considered " Marriott owners",
> would be great if that extended to Marriott preference for II exchanges .


We already have a Marriott preference for II exchanges. It sounds like the associated fees for Marriott &  Vistana will go away as well. Of course this is for weeks enrolled in the system.


----------



## dsmrp

Eric B said:


> Well, shouldn't we unwashed resale Vistana owners also be "Marriott owners" now, too?


I'd give resale Vistana owners Marriott preference in II. That would be a nice gesture to make Vistana resale II
 pref same as  Marriott resale. And an easy programming change too.  However I'm pretty sure Marriott has different definitions or shades of Marriott ownership.


----------



## remowidget

Eric B said:


> Well, shouldn't we unwashed resale Vistana owners also be "Marriott owners" now, too?


I think that is what is going to happen. We will all be Marriott owners.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I hope there is not a clause that eliminates our mandatory resale status if we elect to participate in the DP program. That would be a complete show-stopper. Will be looking at the fine print very closely before making any elective change.


----------



## DanCali

rickandcindy23 said:


> What a great explanation of why you want to convert. I am impressed with all of that. But you obviously bought Westin North Oceanfront from the developer. We are resale oceanfront owners We still paid a lot for us because we are not rich people. I don't think we can be talked into anything that will cost us big bucks. I am not an easy sell on anything.



This is a good perspective. In the end my view is that whatever you buy from Marriott to enroll a week can be translated into an “enrollment fee”. 

In you pay $30k for something worth $6k on the resale market if you try to sell it, and get some extra incentives worth $3k when you buy, then that difference of 21k is your “enrollment fee”. If they let you enroll 2weeks as part of that purchase it’s better than 1 week (Vistana would let you do 5 weeks for a $30k purchase). 

If the “enrollment fee” was labeled as such, I suspect that very few would pay $10k+ to enroll a week into an exchange system. But when it’s wrapped around a product with high MF and a rental value equal to MF it somehow becomes more appealing…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## remowidget

DanCali said:


> If the “enrollment fee” was labeled as such, I suspect that very few would pay $10k+ to enroll a week into an exchange system. But when it’s wrapped around a product with high MF and a rental value equal to MF it somehow becomes more appealing…


Not disagreeing with the logic, but aren't Marriott Destination Point resales required to pay a $3 per point enrollment fee?


----------



## jabberwocky

CalGalTraveler said:


> I hope there is not a clause that eliminates our mandatory resale status if we elect to participate in the DP program. That would be a complete show-stopper. Will be looking at the fine print very closely before making any elective change.


I don’t think they can do this without eliminating the VSN. The mandatory clause is written into the association charter. They can’t pull individual VOIs out of the system.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@jabberwocky Good point. But what about mandatory deeds that are in Flex trust?


----------



## VacationForever

remowidget said:


> Not disagreeing with the logic, but aren't Marriott Destination Point resales required to pay a $3 per point enrollment fee?


You cannot enroll a resale week by buying resale DC points.


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> I hope there is not a clause that eliminates our mandatory resale status if we elect to participate in the DP program. That would be a complete show-stopper. Will be looking at the fine print very closely before making any elective change.



I would be surprised if this happens. I enrolled a Marriott week that I bought resale. I can use it exactly as I purchased it or I can elect for DPs. Just more choices.


----------



## TravelTime

A Vistana salesperson called me today. She has no clue how the MVC program works. She had no idea how an EOY week is awarded points. She thought an EOY week gets half the DP value EOY. I tried to explain it to her and she got frustrated and hung up on me quickly. Then she called back a few minutes later and said she spoke to her boss and I was right. So she put her boss on the line to try to sell me something. His offers were not good. The offers were expensive based on a cost per DP basis.


----------



## jabberwocky

CalGalTraveler said:


> @jabberwocky Good point. But what about mandatory deeds that are in Flex trust?


As far as I know they are still mandatory weeks.

I suspect Vistana is managing inventory in the background when a flex owner wants to make a reservation.  Vistana likely has to book a full week 8-12 months out even if an flex owner wants a partial week. Those days that aren’t picked up by flex owners would then become available via SO at 8 months.


----------



## clymberz

Negma said:


> This was on our printout. I did not include multiple weeks as they are the same.
> 
> MVC Points2600SVREY4050WKV-PlatinumEY3100WKORVNeoy-oddIV3100WKORVNeoy-evenOV3150WMH-PlatinumEY



I'm trying to follow this discussion since a family member has a WKORVN. I'm also surprised IV/OV are the same points. I chalk that up to being based on sq ft and maintenance fees being the same (?).  We used to enjoy spending ski week or spring break at one of the MVC Palm Springs resorts, but based on the point transfers, we would not have enough MVC points to stay a week.  (Shadow Ridge 2br is 4k, for example).  This sounds like a really bad deal considering WKORVN mtc fees of $2500 versus renting the MVC resort for the week.  Although, maybe my market pricing is out of touch since socal folks can spend more for a week of vacation without paying for airfare.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

jabberwocky said:


> As far as I know they are still mandatory weeks.
> 
> I suspect Vistana is managing inventory in the background when a flex owner wants to make a reservation.  Vistana likely has to book a full week 8-12 months out even if an flex owner wants a partial week. Those days that aren’t picked up by flex owners would then become available via SO at 8 months.



Mandatory deed value is based on being able to sell your week and your resale buyer still has SO trading rights.  Does SO trading/points transfer to a resale buyer when they buy Westin Flex? I don't believe it does in the same way that a deed sale would across the entire SVN network. If it does not, Flex trust is a way they are limiting SO mandatory rights even though these rights remain in the underlying mandatory deed in the trust.


----------



## jabberwocky

CalGalTraveler said:


> Mandatory deed value is based on being able to sell your week and your resale buyer still has SO trading rights.  Does SO trading/points transfer to a resale buyer when they buy Westin Flex? I don't believe it does in the same way that a deed sale would across the entire SVN network. If it does not, Flex trust is a way they are limiting SO mandatory rights even though these rights remain in the underlying mandatory deed in the trust.


Flex is voluntary, so no the SO associated with a resale Flex package don’t transfer. This does not mean that the underlying mandatory weeks lose their SO. But it is a good point that it could be seen as a way to limit access to SO reservations on resale. Practically I think they manage the inventory so most owners won’t notice and most mandatory weeks in the trust won’t end up converting to SO.

In theory a similar result could come from weeks sent to MVC. If left unbooked at 8 months those mandatory deeds in MVC would be available via SO. I doubt this would happen with any a great frequency as most weeks will be in high demand and booked before 8 months due to MVC managing the inventory.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> Hold on to your hats for this one!  I have MVC Summit Watch and Mountainside stays over the next three weeks and received an advance call from the local resort marketing people inviting me to a sales presentation during my Park City stays. The super nice lady kept referring to me as a Marriott owner even though I only own Sheraton Flex and for the incentive they offered me Bonvoy points, a visa card or *Marriott DP*. I told her that I don't currently own MVC and have no Marriott account to put DP into as they haven't launched the new program so I haven't enrolled my Flex into DC to create an account. She told me that I have already been assigned a Marriott owner number and have an account with them that she was looking at right now! It's just not funded with my ownership yet. I nearly fell off my chair...mind blown!
> 
> With the "merger" (her words), they have reached the point where we Vistana-ites are considered Marriott owners, all without lifting a finger on our part. Of course we can't yet use their system but those days are fast approaching. This explains why she knew so much about my reservations, room preferences, recent sales presentations, etc, something I never experienced at those properties as an exchanger or renter. She said DP pops up now as an incentive option for me because of this, and if I chose it, it would go into that owner account and be waiting for me when I gained access (after the launch).
> 
> It actually felt good to learn all this, like the stepchild that suddenly gets recognized by the family and warmly invited to the table. I guess this supports my ongoing theory that all Vistana accounts will be/have been migrated onto Marriott's IT platform and will be accessed there, even if through backend access via Vistana.com. This information creates more questions like will I be able to access and use the DP in 2022, even if I don't enroll my Flex into DC? Someone mentioned they were told that Vistana Elite levels were going away and everyone would have Marriott Elite levels instead...this would make sense for them creating Marriott owner accounts as I'm a 3*. So many questions!


You should have asked what your Marriott owner number was so you could go to the MarriottVacationClub.com website and create a profile!


----------



## jabberwocky

Anyone willing to give odds on whether this thread hits 100 pages before the integration day on July 1?


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> You should have asked what your Marriott owner number was so you could go to the MarriottVacationClub.com website and create a profile!


I know, right?! I thought of that after I hung up the phone. I'm going to be seeing them later this week in person so I will have another chance


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> Anyone willing to give odds on whether this thread hits 100 pages before the integration day on July 1?


I think if you're going to put money on anything, that's a good bet with more than 3 weeks to go!


----------



## DanCali

remowidget said:


> Not disagreeing with the logic, but aren't Marriott Destination Point resales required to pay a $3 per point enrollment fee?



Yes, but that wasn’t the comparison I was making. I was saying they are selling you something for $15/point which you can sell only for only $2-$3/point. If you want to say it’s $5-$6 to buy the points resale because of some artificial fee then that’s true. It doesn’t change the fact that the “true” value is $2-$3 and that’s what you get ;today) if you sell them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## remowidget

VacationForever said:


> You cannot enroll a resale week by buying resale DC points.


How do you enroll DC Points?


----------



## remowidget

DanCali said:


> Yes, but that wasn’t the comparison I was making. I was saying they are selling you something for $15/point which you can sell only for only $2-$3/point. If you want to say it’s $5-$6 to buy the points resale because of some artificial fee then that’s true. It doesn’t change the fact that the “true” value is $2-$3 and that’s what you get ;today) if you sell them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is there any disadvantage to purchasing resale Destination Points over purchasing retail?


----------



## dioxide45

remowidget said:


> How do you enroll DC Points?


If you buy resale DC points, you just have to pay the Junk fees of $3pp + the $300 owner education fee to have the points "enrolled" in the MVC Exchange Company.


----------



## dioxide45

remowidget said:


> Is there any disadvantage to purchasing resale Destination Points over purchasing retail?


None that we are aware of. The DC Exchange Procedures seem to have some exclusions for points not purchased from an authorized reseller, but so far in practice resale and retail points seem to work the same.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Sounds like the $3 is MVCs requal enrollment fee. This prevents the trust from losing deeds when someone resells their points.  If you buy resale points and enroll, any options to requal a resale deed with it?


----------



## VacationForever

CalGalTraveler said:


> Sounds like the $3 is MVCs requal enrollment fee. This prevents the trust from losing deeds when someone resells their points.  If you buy resale points and enroll, any options to requal a resale deed with it?


No.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> Sounds like the $3 is MVCs requal enrollment fee. This prevents the trust from losing deeds when someone resells their points.  If you buy resale points and enroll, any options to requal a resale deed with it?


The only way to requalify a resale week is to buy something direct from the developer.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

That's what I thought but I never want to assume in this TS world.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> That's what I thought but I never want to assume in this TS world.


Generally, timeshare companies use requalification as a way to sell more timeshare direct. Most of the timeshare companies have similar programs, Vistana, DRI, Hilton all have their own method of "cleaning" those "dirty" resale deeds.


----------



## remowidget

...


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@remowidget Yes, weeks and points. I own a resale deed, so I am exploring options.


----------



## dioxide45

Marriott resale points only have to pay the $3 per point to be allowed to use the MVC Exchange Company to have full access to the system.

Marriott resale weeks currently can't enroll in the point program unless the owner also buys a large point contract, currently the minimum is 3,000 points >$34K purchase price.
Vistana resale points (Flex) don't have any enrollment fees, they can't be used for reservations in VSN.
Vistana resale mandatory deeds don't have to pay any enrollment fees to use StarOptions. But if they want full access in VSN, they have to re-qualify, $10K minimum purchase price
Vistana resale voluntary deeds don't have access to StarOptions or VSN but they can re-qualify for $10K minimum to have full access to VSN.
In no case can a resale purchase be used to qualify/enroll another resale purchase.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

dioxide45 said:


> Vistana resale mandatory deeds don't have to pay any enrollment fees to use StarOptions. But if they want full access in *VSN ** Marriott DP *they have to re-qualify, $10K minimum purchase price


Minor clarification above. Mandatory resale have full access to VSN/Staroptions but the latest rumor is that they won't have access to Marriott DP. However we won't know for sure until MVC fully announce later this summer (hence a 97 page thread!)


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> Minor clarification above. Mandatory resale have full access to VSN/Staroptions but the latest rumor is that they won't have access to Marriott DP. However we won't know for sure until MVC fully announce later this summer (hence a 97 page thread!)


Not really, they only have access to StarOptions in VSN. They can't use other VSN benefits like resort credit or elite status. That is why I worded it like I did. No enrollment fee to use StarOptions, but for full access to VSN...

We have no idea how access to DP will work.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Thanks for clarifying. Okay so no elite, no Bonvoy but those features are not worth much and Bonvoy conversion is a poor use of MF that are almost $3000 a week so I don't consider those of value. It's the mandatory SO for resale buyers that is the huge benefit.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks for clarifying. Okay so no elite, no Bonvoy but those features are not worth much and Bonvoy conversion is a poor use of MF that are almost $3000 a week so I don't consider those of value. It's the mandatory SO for resale buyers that is the huge benefit.


Correct. The other benefits of VSN are of little utility. Mandatory really just means StarOptions which are the main benefit.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott resale points only have to pay the $3 per point to be allowed to use the MVC Exchange Company to have full access to the system.


Help me out here because my mind is muddled after my latest sales presentation, a common ailment among owners. Resale points are DC trust points, yes?  Meaning they would have access to all the DC trust inventory plus the inventory in the MVC Exchange Company resulting from elected DPs? Or is it something different? 

When they tried to sell me a 1000 points to create hybrid ownership and make my elected Vistana ownership fully able to book from the DC trust inventory as well as MVC Exchange, I of course said I could go out and get some points resale to achieve the same thing  by paying the junk fees and they said that those points aren't treated the same as DC points purchased directly. That left me confused! Maybe to get this extra access to the DC trust for all your ownership including Vistana you have to buy directly from them.


----------



## VacationForever

kozykritter said:


> Help me out here because my mind is muddled after my latest sales presentation, a common ailment among owners. Resale points are DC trust points, yes?  Meaning they would have access to all the DC trust inventory plus the inventory in the MVC Exchange Company resulting from elected DPs? Or is it something different?
> 
> When they tried to sell me a 1000 points to create hybrid ownership and make my elected Vistana ownership fully able to book from the DC trust inventory as well as MVC Exchange, I of course said I could go out and get some points resale to achieve the same thing  by paying the junk fees and they said that those points aren't treated the same as DC points purchased directly. That left me confused! Maybe to get this extra access to the DC trust for all your ownership including Vistana you have to buy directly from them.


Trust points have access to DC Trust and MVC Exchange inventories.  Resale trust points act just like developer bought trust points when junk fees are paid, except that they cannot be used to enroll resale deeds.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Question: How far in advance can a DC-enrolled owner at the highest level book accommodations?

That might be better asked on the Marriott forum.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> Resale points are DC trust points, yes? Meaning they would have access to all the DC trust inventory plus the inventory in the MVC Exchange Company resulting from elected DPs? Or is it something different?


Correct, the only real difference here when comparing to Vistana Flex products is that DC points don't have a priority period when booking trust inventory. They could, but there is no defined timeframe. Most trust inventory goes to the MVC Exchange Company very early. As early as 12 months in advance. Where a Vistana Flex owner can't book exchanger (VSN) inventory until 8 months.


----------



## dioxide45

rickandcindy23 said:


> Question: How far in advance can a DC-enrolled owner at the highest level book accommodations?
> 
> That might be better asked on the Marriott forum.


13 months (based on inventory release dates).


----------



## TravelTime

DanCali said:


> Yes, but that wasn’t the comparison I was making. I was saying they are selling you something for $15/point which you can sell only for only $2-$3/point. If you want to say it’s $5-$6 to buy the points resale because of some artificial fee then that’s true. It doesn’t change the fact that the “true” value is $2-$3 and that’s what you get ;today) if you sell them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That is true if you try to sell them. However, everyone on TUG faces choices and each person values different things:

1-Buy retail DPs from MVC for $15 pp - most expensive option and lose almost all value when you walk out the door*
2-Buy DPs resales for an average of $6 pp -moderate price, might get back half the cost*
3-Buy a “hybrid” enrolled week directly from Marriott - moderate price, might get back half or less the cost depending on the week purchased*
  *Able to exchange in MVC system, use II and use as a week (if enrolled week), and choose views, unit size, #days 
   and some resorts not available without DPs such as Ritz Carlton residence clubs
4-Buy a resale week - cheapest price and usually resale value is stable but not always, not the most flexible option) and only have access to II exchanges
5-Stay at hotels - often most expensive option for what you get but can use Bonvoy points, just 1 room, no kitchen, a great option for locations without timeshares
6-Rent on AirBnB - often there’s a lack of quality control, need to deal with an owner’s whims, could have roaches and spider webs LOL  someone just told me about this happening to them in Northstar Lake Tahoe of all places!
7-Rent weeks from other owners - often but not always the same cost as MFs except in high demand locations like Hawaii, deal with owner’s whims, often non-refundable
8-Rent DPs from another owner - usually cost of MFs, non-refundable, must be used in use year, may not find any available

Maybe there are other options I missed like owning a fractional or a second home but I purposely excluded these. I am sure there are other pros and cons of each option.

Everyone values different things and cost is not primary for many people. I value flexibility, choice, views and getting what I want more than cost.

When we are giving advice to new Tuggers as well as existing ones, we may want to share all the options and pros/cons of each.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> Most trust inventory goes to the MVC Exchange Company very early. As early as 12 months in advance.


Wait, I thought DC trust inventory only transferred to the MVC exchange company when a trust points were used to book inventory held in the exchange and a equal amount of inventory was moved over from the trust to complete the exchange. How does DC trust inventory arrive in the exchange otherwise? I was told by the salespeople that as a Vistana owner electing points the only time I would access DC trust inventory was as a result of the scenario above.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> Wait, I thought DC trust inventory only transferred to the MVC exchange company when a trust points were used to book inventory held in the exchange and a equal amount of inventory was moved over from the trust to complete the exchange. How does DC trust inventory arrive in the exchange otherwise? I was told by the salespeople that as a Vistana owner electing points the only time I would access DC trust inventory was as a result of the scenario above.


That isn't how it actually works. It could work that way, but in reality Marriott just dumps most of the trust inventory in to the MCV Exchange Company and then allows it to facilitate all reservations and bookings. Based on reports, very few Trust reservations actually show that they booked reservations from the DC Trust.

Right now, trust points and elected points are pretty much equal. Marriott could change it to where they keep more inventory in the trust and don't release it to exchange until a trust owner books exchange, but that isn't how it happens right now.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> That isn't how it actually works. It could work that way, but in reality Marriott just dumps most of the trust inventory in to the MCV Exchange Company and then allows it to facilitate all reservations and bookings. Based on reports, very few Trust reservations actually show that they booked reservations from the DC Trust.
> 
> Right now, trust points and elected points are pretty much equal. Marriott could change it to where they keep more inventory in the trust and don't release it to exchange until a trust owner books exchange, but that isn't how it happens right now.


Wow, thanks for that info. One of the questions today in my post sales presentation survey was to rate my knowledge of the MVC on a scale from 1 to 10. I chose 7 but now I think 3 or 4  probably would have been more appropriate


----------



## mkbii

TravelTime said:


> Lots of good questions.
> 
> So for WKOVRN 2BR OF, we will get 8325 DPs EOY in its use year. I have another EOY that I get points for so to me, it works out just fine whether they are annual or EOY. For status, MVC averages the points as if they were annual. So that means 8325 are divided in half to figure out your status level but awarded in the usage year. Since you can bank and borrow points, the year awarded makes less difference. It does help that I am Presidential so I get 1.5 years to use the points after I bank them. There is no fee to bank points. I have never borrowed so I am not sure about that. I have not heard of a fee for borrowing.
> 
> In terms of how many vacations you can get from 8325 DPs, it is really quite a lot depending on the unit size, season, view and location. A few examples of things I have booked using DPs:
> 
> 4250 DPs: Marco Island 2 BR Gulf front in June (there are many view categories here but this is the highest view category, which I booked for next summer)
> 
> 5725 DPs: Ko Olina 2 BR Ocean view (equivalent to ocean front at WKOVRN) in summer (can go as low as 4925 DPs in shoulder season)
> 
> 3675 DPs: Ritz Carlton St Thomas 2BR suite (all oceanfront at this resort) in summer - on our way here now, assuming we ever get here. Our plane has mechanical difficulties!
> 
> 5875 DPs: Waiohai Beach Club in Kauai 2 BR Ocean View in summer (can go as low as 5025 in shoulder seasons…however most people think island view at this resort is just fine…I think it’s because ocean views at this resort are not as incredible like at other resorts so island view saves about 1000 DPs or so)
> 
> For Marbella in Spain, the 2BRs are mostly high 2000s to low 3000s in DPs with a few high weeks in the summer being a little over 4000 DPs. Just giving some more examples to show how many vacations you can take using 8325 DPs.
> 
> For the above, you use a lot fewer DPs if you chose a different view or unit size and more points if you choose a higher season. But very few locations are going to be over 6000-7000 DPs even in high season. Maui is probably the highest in the program.
> 
> You can take a look at the points charts here:
> 
> 
> https://vacationpointexchange.com/pointschart/points_charts_2023.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Nowadays, I book when the booking window opens to get exactly what I want. Prior to Covid, I was not having to worry quite as much about the booking window.
> 
> To me, the most attractive part of qualifying my Vistana week is I can get more vacations at more destinations in what I consider to be equivalent view types in 2BR units for 8325 DPs. If I lock off my 2BR at WKOVRN, then I only get a 1BR and a studio. If I want to visit other VSE resorts, I need to use SOs at 8 months when most inventory I would desire would be unavailable. I also prefer booking at 13 or 12 months, depending on when the resort opens its inventory for booking with DPs.


1st time posting. Sorry if this is not the correct way. I'm looking for a conversion chart for the MVC/Vistana system. I own both. MVC Maui 2b/2b OF 7475 dp Ann, 1b/2b OV deeded secondary market ann. Vistana Nanea 2b/2b RV 148100 EOY, WKOV 1b OV 81000 EOY. Thanks


----------



## dioxide45

mkbii said:


> 1st time posting. Sorry if this is not the correct way. I'm looking for a conversion chart for the MVC/Vistana system. I own both. MVC Maui 2b/2b OF 7475 dp Ann, 1b/2b OV deeded secondary market ann. Vistana Nanea 2b/2b RV 148100 EOY, WKOV 1b OV 81000 EOY. Thanks


No such published chart exists.


----------



## William Seward

dioxide45 said:


> No such published chart exists.


Maybe this will help

I spoke to our Nanea sales rep. She said  Westin148100 will convert to 6200+ Marriott points.

That July 01, is the target date for going live. Who knows..........

Bill Seward


----------



## dioxide45

William Seward said:


> Maybe this will help
> 
> I spoke to our Nanea sales rep. She said  Westin148100 will convert to 6200+ Marriott points.
> 
> That July 01, is the target date for going live. Who knows..........
> 
> Bill Seward


Yeah, that is all we get. Numbers reported out of sales meetings. No such charts, in writing, anywhere.


----------



## VacationForever

William Seward said:


> Maybe this will help
> 
> I spoke to our Nanea sales rep. She said  Westin148100 will convert to 6200+ Marriott points.
> 
> That July 01, is the target date for going live. Who knows..........
> 
> Bill Seward


Westin Flex or Nanea Flex?


----------



## mkbii

dioxide45 said:


> No such published chart exists.


----------



## mkbii

Thanks. I saw different post with conversions and conversion rates and thought there was a "chart" I was told at my MVC meeting 
6800 for my Nanea or 3900 because its EOY and 0 for my WKOV because its resale but nothing in writing.


----------



## dioxide45

mkbii said:


> Thanks. I saw different post with conversions and conversion rates and thought there was a "chart" I was told at my MVC meeting
> 6800 for my Nanea or 3900 because its EOY and 0 for my WKOV because its resale but nothing in writing.


We have seen some handwritten stuff come out of presentations, but nothing formal where you can go to a website or pull out a book and look at it.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> We have seen some handwritten stuff come out of presentations, but nothing formal where you can go to a website or pull out a book and look at it.


In fairness, there are books and charts in the presentations. They just haven’t been widely distributed to the public yet.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> In fairness, there are books and charts in the presentations. They just haven’t been widely distributed to the public yet.


I think the only printed material seen is charts for booking resorts with points, no printed material for what a week or flex would elect for.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> I think the only printed material seen is charts for booking resorts with points, no printed material for what a week or flex would elect for.


I don’t think they will ever produce such a document with election values (this would make the skim too obvious). Do they have a directory of what all of the MVC resort weeks elect to?


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> I don’t think they will ever produce such a document with election values (this would make the skim too obvious). Do they have a directory of what all of the MVC resort weeks elect to?


No directory, but each owner can go online to see what their week elects for before they enroll.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> No directory, but each owner can go online to see what their week elects for.


That’s what I thought. We are supposed to be able to do the same when the “tool” (The terms used by our salesperson) is rolled out to members.  Sales currently has access and can do a printout, but they won’t let you take it with you - which is highly annoying.


----------



## Red elephant

jabberwocky said:


> That’s what I thought. We are supposed to be able to do the same when the “tool” (The terms used by our salesperson) is rolled out to members.  Sales currently has access and can do a printout, but they won’t let you take it with you - which is highly annoying.


When I had my presentation at Marco Island they printed mine out and gave it to me. My connection at central sales emailed it to me. So you can get it if you want it.


----------



## remowidget

jabberwocky said:


> That’s what I thought. We are supposed to be able to do the same when the “tool” (The terms used by our salesperson) is rolled out to members.  Sales currently has access and can do a printout, but they won’t let you take it with you - which is highly annoying.


I just did an update a few weeks ago and I would have loved to see the printout.  She wouldn't give me any specific details.


----------



## lorenmd

ok i will add to this thread in hopes of going over 100 before rollout. i own westin flex 126k SO developer purchase. as well as another 325k SO developer and requaled. 4*.  my westin flex gets me 12 month reservation window but it's only 126k. i would like a 12 month 148k ability. ( to reserve a flex colorado week )  will all my SO become 13 months plus one day reservation ability only in the marriott system and not in the vistana system? should i buy more westin flex to make it an even 148k westin flex? seems cheaper to buy a mandatory resale vistana and hope they let you enroll it in MVC ( like WKORV)  than pay the MF on DP points purchased resale and junk fees payed to move them in. My print out said only 3/6 of my VSN weeks were eligible for DP points ( because 3 were requaled)  but my vistana sales person said that marriott sales person was wrong and it is a computer error in the merger that says requaled weeks are not eligible. marriott says even requaled weeks will not be eligible, vistana says yes they will. what say you knowledgeable people


----------



## DanCali

lorenmd said:


> My print out said only 3/6 of my VSN weeks were eligible for DP points ( because 3 were requaled)  but my vistana sales person said that marriott sales person was wrong and it is a computer error in the merger that says requaled weeks are not eligible. marriott says even requaled weeks will not be eligible, vistana says yes they will. what say you knowledgeable people



They will say what they need to say to make a sale...

Vistana sales have an incentive to say requaled weeks will be included because. if you are not requaled, they can requalify you now and make a sale. And if you are already requaled they can't really try to sell you DPs as of now.

Marriott sales have an incentive to say requaled weeks will not be included because, if you are already requaled, they can try to convince you to buy DPs now anyway. And if you are not requaled the same applies.

I happen to think requaled weeks will be included, but that's just my opinion. If I were to do any retro now it'd only be through Vistana because I would want my weeks to be fully retrod into both systems. I don't know if a Marriott purchase would also retro a week into VSN and I doubt most MVC salespeople would even know what you are talking about or have the right documents/access to pull it off.


----------



## byeloe

lorenmd said:


> will all my SO become 13 months plus one day reservation ability


I don't think any SO will ever be 13 months reservation ability.    You may get that if you elect for DP for that year with Marriott.


----------



## Don Springett

I just had a owner update at Westin Riverfront. I do not own here but am 5 star elite (Maui and Kierland).  Program looks pretty good for my situation…no change to Vistana privileges  but get the benefits of Marriott system at the Chairman level if I want to use them.  No cost to enroll in the system or exchange into the system.  I can also check inventory of desired resorts before committing my weeks. He mentioned the Marriott priorities are based on status vs time stamp so we won’t need to scrambled 365 days in advance.  I have been using or renting out my weeks and will probably continue to do that. Nice to have the flexibility of all the Marriott properties but I really like the Westin options. I tried to get clarification on trust inventory vs exchanged inventory in the Marriott system. He seemed confused with this and indicated that once we traded into the system, there was only one inventory pool.  When I mentioned someone wrote that they were pressured to buy points do they would have access to both inventories, he said it sounded like a sales tactic to sell points.  They made a very low pressure effort to sell some Riverfront inventory or Westin Flex, but I declined.  I also mentioned a friend who exchanged to Westin Flex with the specific purpose to book Westin Riverfront in the summer but he could not get in, while I got in in 8 months with Staroptions. They mentioned that very little inventory at Riverside went into flex.  I will start my graduate studies of this Marriott program when it is on line.


----------



## vacation dreaming

Don Springett said:


> I just had a owner update at Westin Riverfront. I do not own here but am 5 star elite (Maui and Kierland).  Program looks pretty good for my situation…no change to Vistana privileges  but get the benefits of Marriott system at the Chairman level if I want to use them.  No cost to enroll in the system or exchange into the system.  I can also check inventory of desired resorts before committing my weeks. He mentioned the Marriott priorities are based on status vs time stamp so we won’t need to scrambled 365 days in advance.  I have been using or renting out my weeks and will probably continue to do that. Nice to have the flexibility of all the Marriott properties but I really like the Westin options. I tried to get clarification on trust inventory vs exchanged inventory in the Marriott system. He seemed confused with this and indicated that once we traded into the system, there was only one inventory pool.  When I mentioned someone wrote that they were pressured to buy points do they would have access to both inventories, he said it sounded like a sales tactic to sell points.  They made a very low pressure effort to sell some Riverfront inventory or Westin Flex, but I declined.  I also mentioned a friend who exchanged to Westin Flex with the specific purpose to book Westin Riverfront in the summer but he could not get in, while I got in in 8 months with Staroptions. They mentioned that very little inventory at Riverside went into flex.  I will start my graduate studies of this Marriott program when it is on line.


Did they give you timing for rollout?  Rumor is July 1.


----------



## Red elephant

lorenmd said:


> ok i will add to this thread in hopes of going over 100 before rollout. i own westin flex 126k SO developer purchase. as well as another 325k SO developer and requaled. 4*.  my westin flex gets me 12 month reservation window but it's only 126k. i would like a 12 month 148k ability. ( to reserve a flex colorado week )  will all my SO become 13 months plus one day reservation ability only in the marriott system and not in the vistana system? should i buy more westin flex to make it an even 148k westin flex? seems cheaper to buy a mandatory resale vistana and hope they let you enroll it in MVC ( like WKORV)  than pay the MF on DP points purchased resale and junk fees payed to move them in. My print out said only 3/6 of my VSN weeks were eligible for DP points ( because 3 were requaled)  but my vistana sales person said that marriott sales person was wrong and it is a computer error in the merger that says requaled weeks are not eligible. marriott says even requaled weeks will not be eligible, vistana says yes they will. what say you knowledgeable people


I went to a Marriott sales and was told requalified weeks were eligible .


----------



## Don Springett

Yes, July 1 but I am not holding my breath


----------



## SandyPGravel

Don Springett said:


> I will start my graduate studies of this Marriott program when it is on line.


Is that a degree offered by the University of Pheonix? (Purposely misspelled   )


----------



## lorenmd

byeloe said:


> I don't think any SO will ever be 13 months reservation ability.    You may get that if you elect for DP for that year with Marriott.


what i was told was if i elect DP points then i would be able to make a reservation at 13 months and one day for something using the DP points chart including vistana places which will have a DP points reservation amount. but because i am 4 star, the equivalent in marriott would allow me to have that booking window.


----------



## lorenmd

vacation dreaming said:


> Did they give you timing for rollout?  Rumor is July 1.


they are scrambling to get it rolled out by july 1 but they keep running into computer integration issues. they know what the rules are they just have to get the computers to do their job. i would rather they tell us what it is going to be and tell us to sit tight while they get the computer programs to run smoothly than to unload it all at once and find out all kinds of glitches. it's going to be a mess when it goes live since everyone will want to be on the site checking out what they have and finding out what they can do with what they have.


----------



## DanCali

lorenmd said:


> what i was told was if i elect DP points then i would be able to make a reservation at 13 months and one day for something using the DP points chart including vistana places which will have a DP points reservation amount. but because i am 4 star, the equivalent in marriott would allow me to have that booking window.



MVC owners with 4000+ DC points can book 7+ nights at 13 months out (I think even owners with less than 4000 points can do so, for an extra cost in points). Owners with 7000+ DC points can book 1+ nights at 13 months out. But booking at Vistana at 13 months out using DC points should be from inventory which has been deposited into the exchange company. If no WKV owners elect DC points for a given year you would not, in theory, find any inventory to book using DC points at any time horizon. That inventory should remain available for home resort bookings at 12 months out and SVN reservations at 8 months out.

How DC deposits will actually impact the ability to reserve SVN at 12 months out remains to be seen...


----------



## VacationForever

DanCali said:


> MVC owners with 4000+ DC points can book 7+ nights at 13 months out (I think even owners with less than 4000 points can do so, for an extra cost in points). Owners with 7000+ DC points can book 1+ nights at 13 months out. But booking at Vistana at 13 months out using DC points should be from inventory which has been deposited into the exchange company. If no WKV owners elect DC points for a given year you would not, in theory, find any inventory to book using DC points at any time horizon. That inventory should remain available for home resort bookings at 12 months out and SVN reservations at 8 months out.
> 
> How DC deposits will actually impact the ability to reserve SVN at 12 months out remains to be seen...


I've got to say it is a win-win situation for those who own in both systems.  I don't see myself electing DC points for my Vistana ownership in most years.


----------



## PlayInTheDirt

DanCali said:


> MVC owners with 4000+ DC points can book 7+ nights at 13 months out (I think even owners with less than 4000 points can do so, for an extra cost in points). Owners with 7000+ DC points can book 1+ nights at 13 months out. But booking at Vistana at 13 months out using DC points should be from inventory which has been deposited into the exchange company. If no WKV owners elect DC points for a given year you would not, in theory, find any inventory to book using DC points at any time horizon. That inventory should remain available for home resort bookings at 12 months out and SVN reservations at 8 months out.
> 
> How DC deposits will actually impact the ability to reserve SVN at 12 months out remains to be seen...


I understand that WKV weeks owners must elect DC points in advance, thus there are a known number of weeks in the exchange pool for DC reservations. And it all works out. But I’m having trouble figuring out how that might work for Flex /Trust inventory. Developer /qualified Flex owners don’t have to do any such election in advance, do they? So can they reserve Westin or Sheraton Flex inventory at 13 months? And can’t Marriott DC owners also reserve Westin and Sheraton Flex inventory at 13 months? But resale / unqualified Flex owners can only reserve Flex / Trust inventory at 12 months, right? So will anything be left? Seems like resale Flex owners might really get starved out of popular reservations. Or am I missing something?

I guess they could only open X% of the Flex inventory at the 13 month mark, where X is the percent of qualified Flex owners, versus unqualified Flex owners?? And open the remainder at the 12 month mark??

Any speculation  ?


----------



## VacationForever

I believe "qualified" Flex owners will also need to elect DC points each year if they want the Flex points converted to DC and book through MVC DC system.


----------



## dioxide45

PlayInTheDirt said:


> I understand that WKV weeks owners must elect DC points in advance, thus there are a known number of weeks in the exchange pool for DC reservations. And it all works out. But I’m having trouble figuring out how that might work for Flex /Trust inventory. Developer /qualified Flex owners don’t have to do any such election in advance, do they? So can they reserve Westin or Sheraton Flex inventory at 13 months? And can’t Marriott DC owners also reserve Westin and Sheraton Flex inventory at 13 months? But resale / unqualified Flex owners can only reserve Flex / Trust inventory at 12 months, right? So will anything be left? Seems like resale Flex owners might really get starved out of popular reservations. Or am I missing something?
> 
> I guess they could only open X% of the Flex inventory at the 13 month mark, where X is the percent of qualified Flex owners, versus unqualified Flex owners?? And open the remainder at the 12 month mark??
> 
> Any speculation  ?


I suspect Flex will work just like weeks. You must elect DC Club Points first. Once you elect, that decision is final. You can't just opt to make a 13 month reservation and if that doesn't work, still keep the HomeOptions.


----------



## Mowogo

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect Flex will work just like weeks. You must elect DC Club Points first. Once you elect, that decision is final. You can't just opt to make a 13 month reservation and if that doesn't work, still keep the HomeOptions.


I see this being an easy opt in on the website, and I think owners updates for qualified owners are likely to enter a period of pushing exchanging within DC almost to the level of pushing more points specifically to get people exchanging in DC.  And for Flex owners that are elite, I definitely see advantages booking DC over Flex points given the issues of inventory in Westin Flex and just the greater variety for Westin Flex with booking advantage.


----------



## William Seward

From what I've been told and understand. 

July 01, Westin properties will only be selling Marriott point and the flex will be discontinued. That eventually everything will be Marriott points. But the property owners who have Westin Flex will still continue a early reservation priority at the below Westin properties.

Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort
Westin Nanea Ocean Villas
Westin Desert Willow Villas
Westin Kirkland Villas
Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort North
Westin Princeville Ocean Resort Villas
Westin Mission Hills Resort
Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas
But I do think everything is still in flux. Believe it when it's in writing.

Bill Seward


----------



## kozykritter

Went to a presentation today at MVC Summit Watch and finally saw the DP point election for my two Sheraton Flex developer-purchased contracts, 160,700 options. The ratio they are using is approximately 34.21 to 1, not the 32 to 1 that was originally reported here. When I brought this discrepancy up to them, they said that the ratio set in the MVC database has not changed since the soft launch began and is unlikely to, based upon how things were handled when they did the Marriott weeks DP conversion back in 2010. So instead of the 5,022 DP I was thinking, my ownership converts to 4,695 which is a difference of 327 DPs.


----------



## PlayInTheDirt

kozykritter said:


> Went to a presentation today at MVC Summit Watch and finally saw the DP point election for my two Sheraton Flex developer-purchased contracts, 160,700 options. The ratio they are using is approximately 34.21 to 1, not the 32 to 1 that was originally reported here. When I brought this discrepancy up to them, they said that the ratio set in the MVC database has not changed since the soft launch began and is unlikely to, based upon how things were handled when they did the Marriott weeks DP conversion back in 2010. So instead of the 5,022 DP I was thinking, my ownership converts to 4,695 which is a difference of 327 DPs.


Did they mention anything the process of electing conversion of Flex points to DC points in advance (as speculated by VacationForever and dioxide45 above), by any chance?


----------



## kozykritter

PlayInTheDirt said:


> Did they mention anything the process of electing conversion of Flex points t o DC points in advance (as speculated by VacationForever and dioxide45 above), by any chance?


I'm guessing that you mean electing in advance of their use year as in by the end of September this year for your 2023 use year that starts January 1  Yes, that was confirmed to me in a different presentation last week. Once the hard launch happens in a couple weeks, that option should automatically appear in your online account which will actually be hosted on Marriott's IT platform,. This is assuming you are eligible to convert.


----------



## PlayInTheDirt

kozykritter said:


> I'm guessing that you mean electing in advance of their use year as in by the end of September this year for your 2023 use year that starts January 1 Yes, that was confirmed to me in a different presentation last week. Once the hard launch happens in a couple weeks, that option should automatically appear in your online account which will actually be hosted on Marriott's IT platform,. This is assuming you are eligible to convert.


Thanks for the insight. Is it all or nothing? Do you have to convert all of your 160K Flex points to DC points, or choose not to convert any? Or can you say, for instance, that you want to convert 34.21K Flex points (and get 1K DC points)? And keep the rest as Flex points? I wonder if everyone that's eligible will just convert all their Flex to DC...

Sent from my SM-T220 using Tapatalk


----------



## kozykritter

PlayInTheDirt said:


> Thanks for the insight. Is it all or nothing? Do you have to convert all of your 160K Flex points to DC points, or choose not to convert any? Or can you say, for instance, that you want to convert 34.21K Flex points (and get 1K DC points)? And keep the rest as Flex points? I wonder if everyone that's eligible will just convert all their Flex to DC...
> 
> Sent from my SM-T220 using Tapatalk


You can make your decision for each contract individually and if you decide to elect for points, it's the entire contract value, no partials. So for example if you have two contracts you could elect to receive points for one and keep the other just in Vistana for a given year.


----------



## kozykritter

Here's an update on my previous post about Vistana owners being assigned a Marriott owner number and account. At my update yesterday I learned that Marriott uses a very old but very effective DOS-based database to hold all its owner information for customer management purposes. The sales broker told me that all similar Vistana data has been merged into this database and Vistana-only owners assigned an 8-digit Marriott owner number (he called it a customer number and it was labeled on the report they gave me as "OTM number"). He said this has transformed the sales experience for them because now they have some real hard data to work with during presentations. This data includes all of the details related to each of your ownership contracts including DP election value, your history of sales presentations at Vistana and MVC, encores purchased and their status, etc.

He told me that this owner number is the same one that will be used to set up an account for Vistana-only owners in the MVC reservation system/IT platform but it won't be active/accessible for use until the hard launch happens and all of your Vistana ownership is loaded into that account.

Anyone can create an online account in Marriott's system at marriottvacationclub.com ... you don't need to know your owner number to do it. Evidently you can use it with things like the MVC app. This username and password will eventually be the one you use to access your ownership on Marriott system but only after the hard launch. I can confirm all of this as I created my online account and then clicked on the link to add my ownership to it since I do have my owner number. It came back with a message saying something like ownership not found (yet). But we have real evidence that progress has been made and that the integration is nearly upon us!


----------



## alexadeparis

kozykritter said:


> Here's an update on my previous post about Vistana owners being assigned a Marriott owner number and account. At my update yesterday I learned that Marriott uses a very old but very effective DOS-based database to hold all its owner information for customer management purposes. The sales broker told me that all similar Vistana data has been merged into this database and Vistana-only owners assigned an 8-digit Marriott owner number (he called it a customer number and it was labeled on the report they gave me as "OTM number"). He said this has transformed the sales experience for them because now they have some real hard data to work with during presentations. This data includes all of the details related to each of your ownership contracts including DP election value, your history of sales presentations at Vistana and MVC, encores purchased and their status, etc.
> 
> He told me that this owner number is the same one that will be used to set up an account for Vistana-only owners in the MVC reservation system/IT platform but it won't be active/accessible for use until the hard launch happens and all of your Vistana ownership is loaded into that account.
> 
> Anyone can create an online account in Marriott's system at marriottvacationclub.com ... you don't need to know your owner number to do it. Evidently you can use it with things like the MVC app. This username and password will eventually be the one you use to access your ownership on Marriott system but only after the hard launch. I can confirm all of this as I created my online account and then clicked on the link to add my ownership to it since I do have my owner number. It came back with a message saying something like ownership not found (yet). But we have real evidence that progress has been made .and that the integration is nearly upon us!


Interesting, we used to own with Marriott so I wonder if my old login would work, and also whether our number will change or be what it used to be. Will try later.


----------



## kozykritter

I'm rethinking what he told me yesterday. He may have just said it was the online account login that will be the same once your ownership is loaded. That 8 digit customer number could just be for sales and marketing and they will assign a different 7 digit one as an owner account number. I guess we'll know shortly!


----------



## DanCali

kozykritter said:


> I'm rethinking what he told me yesterday. He may have just said it was the online account login that will be the same once your ownership is loaded. That 8 digit customer number could just be for sales and marketing and they will assign a different 7 digit one as an owner account number. I guess we'll know shortly!




It could be an 8-digit number.

7-digit account numbers are limited to 9M accounts (if you start at 1000000), which is actually more like 4.5M ownerships given that an owner and their spouse get separate numbers. They may have decided all these new accounts warrant jumping to 8 digits.


----------



## Eric B

Woo Hoo!  We made it to 100 pages!


----------



## alexadeparis

Just tried to logon and it let me but gave me an error message that the system is only for people with active ownerships


----------



## William Seward

Kozykritter - Am I still correct is assuming, that all Vistana point will be MVC points and the Vistana point system will be retired. At some point in the future.


----------



## DanCali

William Seward said:


> Kozykritter - Am I still correct is assuming, that all Vistana point will be MVC points and the Vistana point system will be retired. At some point in the future.



You can assume that if you want but I think it's totally unfounded. Doing that would create ill-will from pretty much all Vistana owners...

The two exchange systems can coexist side by side just like the DC system currently coexists with the Marriott Florida Club.


----------



## jabberwocky

Eric B said:


> Woo Hoo!  We made it to 100 pages!


And yet do we really know much more than we did on page one?


----------



## VacationForever

William Seward said:


> Kozykritter - Am I still correct is assuming, that all Vistana point will be MVC points and the Vistana point system will be retired. At some point in the future.


Absolutely not.  This is not what the 100 pages of posts have told us.


----------



## Mowogo

William Seward said:


> Kozykritter - Am I still correct is assuming, that all Vistana point will be MVC points and the Vistana point system will be retired. At some point in the future.


It won’t be retired but it will be starved over time.  The amount of inventory available for VSN exchange will only go down as Voluntary ownerships are resold and owners switch to exchanging within MVC.


----------



## kozykritter

William Seward said:


> Kozykritter - Am I still correct is assuming, that all Vistana point will be MVC points and the Vistana point system will be retired. At some point in the future.


They are just combining the online access portion onto Marriott's IT platform. I don't think it's a sign of anything else at this point.


----------



## jabberwocky

Mowogo said:


> It won’t be retired but it will be starved over time.  The amount of inventory available for VSN exchange will only go down as Voluntary ownerships are resold and owners switch to exchanging within MVC.


This will take a very long time. When you think of how long the average owner holds onto their TS, my guess it you are looking at around 20 years before you even start to see an impact. By then who knows what MVC will even look like.


----------



## Eric B

Mowogo said:


> inventory available for VSN exchange will only go down as Voluntary ownerships are resold



Any idea how many voluntary ownerships are resold as compared to deeded back, foreclosed, etc.?  Thoughts on whether a more pronounced effect could be shifting in VSN availability to mandatory resorts if there is an appreciable proportion of voluntary ownerships being resold?


----------



## kozykritter

Eric B said:


> Woo Hoo!  We made it to 100 pages!


Perhaps now we should start taking bets on how many pages we'll reach by the time the hard launch starts!  I'll put my money on 106


----------



## jabberwocky

kozykritter said:


> Perhaps now we should start taking bets on how many pages we'll reach by the time the hard launch starts!  I'll put my money on 106


Maybe we should do an over/under?


----------



## GregT

Good afternoon TUG friends,

Out of respect for all of you (and a desire to learn more), I did a sales presentation today at MOC.  I don’t think I’ve done one in 10+ years.   It was actually quite pleasant (and I didn’t even get a gift for it).

As always, please accept the following comments with a grain of salt, they are my opinions and some are merely repetitive to what is already suspected.

1) I believe the start date will be delayed again, perhaps to Aug 15. Both reps believe July 1 is unrealistic.
2) Vistana resale weeks will not be grandfathered into the system (which is different than I had hoped)
3) Vistana resale weeks that closed prior to January 2022 can be requalified and eligible for enrollment
4) there is a progressive tier system - you have to buy 1,000 DC points ($13K?) to enroll a single Vistana week and then each additional week requires another 500 points purchase ($6,500?).
5) I have five weeks therefore I would have to purchase 3,000 points ($40K)
6) Because I have modest quality Starwood weeks (4 EOY Sheratons and an Annual SDO Gold plus) they are only worth 9,000 points EOY (worth 4,500 annualized points). That would be criminal if I did that and I would expect all of you to bring pitchforks if I spent $40K to enroll 4,500 annual points.
7) however it’s not as terrible if you have quality Non-VSN weeks that can now be more than just a week.
8) you receive Bonus Points for a purchase, and I was quoted 6,000 BPs to purchase 3,000 points. This is not trivial because those points can be utilized in a manner to offset your purchase price. For simplicity, assume 6,000 BPs are worth $4,500.

This does create an opportunity for the Starwood owner who has non-VSN weeks, closed before Jan 2022, who is blocked from VSN but can now get access to a different currency — which represents the future focus of the parent (sorry, not trying to antagonize, but it’s true) .

In this hypothetical, someone with three non-VSN weeks can buy 2,000 points ($26K?) and enroll those weeks. This Buyer also gets some BPs and still has the 2,000 annual points too that were purchased. That’s not terrible, if someone has $26K burning a hole in their pocket and no longer uses the weeks as originally purchased.

I continue to believe VSN will remain viable and be a source of reservations for years to come. Too many owners won’t want to give Marriott money and the system is more complicated than StarOptions. I expect many owners will use (or not use) as before. As an example, II is still viable source of trades 12 years on and there has been no dry up of reservations as predicted in 2010.

I have no idea if any of this is useful but I’m glad to have the knowledge. If I’d pulled the trigger on an SDO True Platinum and a WPORV resale, I would be looking at this with a different lens.   Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg


----------



## GregT

And hat tip to @dioxide45 for responding to questions (sent via text) during the meeting.

Good work Jeremy, greatly appreciated

Best,

Greg


----------



## grgs

GregT said:


> If I’d pulled the trigger on an SDO True Platinum and a WPORV resale, I would be looking at this with a different lens.   Interesting stuff.



Thanks for taking one for the and giving your update.  Since it looks like a 2 bed True Plat SDO unit will only be assigned 2,375 DPs, I'm not sure how attractive that would be to enroll with an additional DP purchase.  I don't remember what WPORV is supposedly assigned.  Presumably a lot more than SDO.


----------



## Venter

Greg,

I can add that I think you are right regarding the 1000 points for first week and 500 for each week thereafter.  I am in the process of requalifying some Vistana VOI's by purchasing a Marriott week.  I said I would only buy of that is the case and it is in the contract.  The salesman had to contact head office and showed me the emails that this will be done and the emails form part of the addendum.  In one email they state that as long as the outcome in price is the same as if buying points for a first, second etc. week.  The first week has to be 1000 points and then 500 per week thereafter.

Thanks for the pain you took.


----------



## DanCali

GregT said:


> 3) Vistana resale weeks that closed prior to January 2022 can be requalified and eligible for enrollment
> 
> This does create an opportunity for the Starwood owner who has non-VSN weeks, closed before Jan 2022, who is blocked from VSN but can now get access to a different currency — which represents the future focus of the parent (sorry, not trying to antagonize, but it’s true) .




Great info Greg! Thanks for posting all that.

I guess where I got a bit lost is what is so magical about January 2022? So Vistana resale weeks closed after Jan 2022 will never get an offer to be enrolled into the DC for a developer purchase? Or will the price just be higher? I'd think someone with resale weeks in the back pocket is always an opportunity for them to make a sale with these offers.


----------



## tamu_bu

GregT said:


> believe the start date will be delayed again, perhaps to Aug 15. Both reps believe July 1 is unrealistic.


My prediction of July 84th still has a shot!


----------



## kozykritter

Right now they are selling 1000 pts for $15,260 after a 5% discount. That level of points doesn't qualify for any credits like an Encore payment or hotel stay credit as you have to purchase a minimum of 1,500 points for those to activate.

They are offering an incentive of 2000 plus points the value of which is a matter of perspective. I use the DC point maintenance fee of about 63 cents which works out to $1,260 though you could also use the point rental cost which is often between 65 and 70 cents.


----------



## GregT

Venter said:


> Greg,
> 
> I can add that I think you are right regarding the 1000 points for first week and 500 for each week thereafter.  I am in the process of requalifying some Vistana VOI's by purchasing a Marriott week.  I said I would only buy of that is the case and it is in the contract.  The salesman had to contact head office and showed me the emails that this will be done and the emails form part of the addendum.  In one email they state that as long as the outcome in price is the same as if buying points for a first, second etc. week.  The first week has to be 1000 points and then 500 per week thereafter.
> 
> Thanks for the pain you took.


Good work and congrats - out of curiosity, what is the week you purchased?

Best,

Greg


----------



## GregT

DanCali said:


> Great info Greg! Thanks for posting all that.
> 
> I guess where I got a bit lost is what is so magical about January 2022? So Vistana resale weeks closed after Jan 2022 will never get an offer to be enrolled into the DC for a developer purchase? Or will the price just be higher? I'd think someone with resale weeks in the back pocket is always an opportunity for them to make a sale with these offers.


Dan,

I totally agree - today’s “limit” is weeks purchased by Jan - 2022 and it is very possible that down the road, that may change. May require a negotiation.

But this is today’s structure and gives us a framework for discussion. But I agree with your sentiment and recall when Marriott would “never” allow a post June 2010 to be enrolled. Obviously no longer the case.

Best,

Greg


----------



## Venter

Los Suenos platinum.

One of my 'weeks' is a Westin Flex that closed in May 2022.


----------



## GregT

Venter said:


> Los Suenos platinum.
> 
> One of my 'weeks' is a Westin Flex that closed in May 2022.


Very interesting on both counts -- great property and congratulations!!!!

Best,

Greg


----------



## DanCali

GregT said:


> Dan,
> 
> I totally agree - today’s “limit” is weeks purchased by Jan - 2022 and it is very possible that down the road, that may continue. May require a negotiation.
> 
> But this is today’s structure and gives us a framework for discussion. But I agree with your sentiment and recall when Marriott would “never” allow a post June 2010 to be enrolled. Obviously no longer the case.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg




I guess we'll see, although now that I think about it it's somewhat consistent with what we were recently told at a discussion at Playa Andaluza. I was telling them I am not buying anything retail because there are a couple of more resale weeks we are considering adding first and they said they would have needed to be added before 2022 to be eligible for enrollment. I didn't really think too much of that comment at the time other than an excuse to get me to buy, but it makes more sense now... Don't think it will last, if it's even a rule at all.


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> I guess we'll see, although now that I think about it it's somewhat consistent with what we were recently told at a discussion at Playa Andaluza. I was telling them I am not buying anything retail because there are a couple of more resale weeks we are considering adding first and they said they would have needed to be added before 2022 to be eligible for enrollment. I didn't really think too much of that comment at the time other than an excuse to get me to buy, but it makes more sense now... Don't think it will last, if it's even a rule at all.


It is possible that the legacy resale (pre 2022) would retain the retro offer Greg is referring to, but perhaps newer resales will require the higher point purchase requirements like Marriott sells today during their annual "promotion". Usually a minimum of 3,000 points for a single week.


----------



## daviator

I took a couple weeks off from keeping up with this forum and have tried to catch up.

So the latest thinking is that even owners of developer-purchased Vistana weeks will not get to play in the MVC DP world without a purchase of DPs?

I actually hope that's true, because I think that will dramatically limit Vistana owner participation in the DP program and keep the VSN network viable for many, many years into the future.

I will certainly not be giving them tens of thousands of dollars for DP points I don't want or need, just so that my existing ownerships can be traded into the DP network.  I don't want more vacation time.  I am not chomping at the bit to trade into any of the MVC properties, but if it were essentially free to do so, I might consider it once in a while.  But it's sounding more and more like the program changes are (mostly) a complete non-event for me.  A higher network fee and the elimination of some miscellaneous fees I rarely encountered.  Color me unimpressed.

This is completely different from what Denise's contact told us early in these 100 pages.  So I'll take it with a grain of salt and wait for something official to be announced.... some day....


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> It is possible that the legacy resale (pre 2022) would retain the retro offer Greg is referring to, but perhaps newer resales will require the higher point purchase requirements like Marriott sells today during their annual "promotion". Usually a minimum of 3,000 points for a single week.




Could be - but as I suggested in a different thread, the precedent has been set with the Vistana retro offers and I think the days of people paying $30K-$45K to enroll a single week in the DC will be over sooner rather than later. Even $10K for a single week and $5 for each additional was not an easy sell when the product they make you buy has high MFs and close to zero resale value. But I strongly suspect that MVC saw the Vistana books and realized that lower prices for these offers can potentially generate much higher revenues/profits if the closing rates are significantly higher.

It's interesting to know if a VSN week requalified via MVC would also get "retrod" into VSN. i.e., if you own some cheap voluntary Orlando week purchased for $1 and enroll it as part of a developer purchase, will they also let you have Staroptions? It seems that is currently the case with Vistana - if you now retro via Vistana you get Staroptions usage in VSN and also a promise to enroll into the DC. Are people buying from Marriott with an promise of enrollment of VSN weeks into the DC being told anything about VSN usage either way? After 2500 posts is there any info on that?


----------



## jabberwocky

> I was telling them I am not buying anything retail because there are a couple of more resale weeks we are considering adding first and they said they would have needed to be added before 2022 to be eligible for enrollment. I didn't really think too much of that comment at the time other than an excuse to get me to buy, but it makes more sense now...



I Think the first part of your last sentence is quite insightful. Anyone going to a presentation would be wise to read it and commit to memory.


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> Could be - but as I suggested in a different thread, the precedent has been set with the Vistana retro offers and I think the days of people paying $30K-$45K to enroll a single week in the DC will be over sooner rather than later. Even $10K for a single week and $5 for each additional was not an easy sell when the product they make you buy has high MFs and close to zero resale value. But I strongly suspect that MVC saw the Vistana books and realized that lower prices for these offers can potentially generate much higher revenues/profits if the closing rates are significantly higher.


But I think the difference here is in the future, they can sell it as an upgrade into Marriott DC for what are weeks that are unqualified and the higher retro would only apply to those external resales after 1/22. Rightnow Marriott hasn't relented on expensive retros to bring external Marriott resales into DC when they are otherwise unqualified. There is a precedent to allow pre June 2010 Marriott resales to enroll for free, but they haven't extended that to new resales. I don't think precedent matters. I highly suspect there will be some cut off date for external Vistana resales where they either won't be able to enroll/retro, or it will be cost prohibitive just like with Marriott resales.



DanCali said:


> It's interesting to know if a VSN week requalified via MVC would also get "retrod" into VSN. i.e., if you own some cheap voluntary Orlando week purchased for $1 and enroll it as part of a developer purchase, will they also let you have Staroptions? It seems that is currently the case with Vistana - if you now retro via Vistana you get Staroptions usage in VSN and also a promise to enroll into the DC. Are people buying from Marriott with an promise of enrollment of VSN weeks into the DC being told anything about VSN usage either way? After 2500 posts is there any info on that?


So far, only a few people have mentioned this type of offer from a Marriott sales office. We don't have a lot of details and one would certainly want it spelled out in the contract in a very clear and concise way. I suspect though it is mostly a way to sell DC points without any real promise backing it up. We have also seen Marriott sales tell people that one must buy DC points in order for their existing points to be able to access Vistana resorts...


----------



## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> We have also seen Marriott sales tell people that one must buy DC points in order for their existing points to be able to access Vistana resorts...


NOTE: This is not about unenrolled resale.

I have seen two mechanisms suggested earlier in this thread.

The most common is that Vistana enrolled ownership will be able to be converted to Destination Points. Then the user will be able to book in the Destination points program. I was told essentially this in a sales meeting about a month ago.

The other is that if you have enrolled ownership in both systems, you will be able to directly book your Vistana ownership in MVC without a conversion required. ie, a hybrid account. This 100% makes sense to me. This is a great sales pitch. Vistana owners can make a minimum purchase for this benfit. Note: I'm not saying this is good value when compared to resale, but would result in a lot of sales.


----------



## dioxide45

remowidget said:


> The other is that if you have enrolled ownership in both systems, you will be able to directly book your Vistana ownership in MVC without a conversion required. ie, a hybrid account. This 100% makes sense to me. This is a great sales pitch. Vistana owners can make a minimum purchase for this benfit. Note: I'm not saying this is good value when compared to resale, but would result in a lot of sales.


I am not even sure what this means. What is meant by "without a conversion required"? There will always have to be some conversion either based on the point value of the week or conversion from Flex to DC points...


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> I am not even sure what this means. What is meant by "without a conversion required"? There will always have to be some conversion either based on the point value of the week or conversion from Flex to DC points...



The part I picked up on was "This is a great sales pitch."  I'm still waiting for the actual rules to come out and don't feel that great a need to enroll in Marriott if it costs anything substantial.


----------



## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> I am not even sure what this means. What is meant by "without a conversion required"? There will always have to be some conversion either based on the point value of the week or conversion from Flex to DC points...


Without converting your complete individual ownership/week. ie, you could book a single MVC night with Vistana home or star options.

With the first option, I would have to transfer a full 148,100 options to Destination Points to book one night, leaving remaining destination points.

With the second option, all of my remaining ownership would reside in Vistana.

Still rumors....


----------



## dioxide45

remowidget said:


> Without converting your complete individual ownership/week. ie, you could book a single MVC night with Vistana home or star options.
> 
> With the first option, I would have to transfer a full 148,100 options to Destination Points to book one night, leaving remaining destination points.
> 
> With the second option, all of my remaining ownership would reside in Vistana.
> 
> Still rumors....


Possible, but I just don't see Vistana owners having the ability to convert at a StarOptions level. You will either convert your entire week or a full contract of Flex HomeOptions. It may be possible to elect a certain number of HomeOptions and retain the reset, but I don't see any way to convert just some StarOptions since the program is an exchange company and the exchange company really won't play in VSN.


----------



## sharr7

It sounds like they're just trying to "upsell" the fact you can book Vistana with MVC points. Like, Vistana-only have to convert their whole week/contract and then book in MVC, but if you own both you can book Vistana (with SO or DP) or MVC (with DP) without converting. Not really news. Perhaps there's a benefit to adding a few days to a Vistana vacation (especially unenrolled) with DP. But doesn't sounds like anything groundbreaking to me.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Unless you are already an MVC owner with points, or have Vistana voluntary resale and want more choices, I find it hard to justify any enrollment fee  >$1000. We primarily use our unit and paid $12k resale. On what planet would one pay almost the same as the purchase amount just to gain access to a few more resorts when SOs and II exist for free?

DP Enrollment is like a voluntary resort so there are no rights conferred to future buyers so it doesn't add to the value of the unit like mandatory SOs. Besides, the people who buy premium properties like Oceanfront WKORV don't buy their units to trade.  How many MOC OF owners actively trade their properties or are enrolled? I bet very few.

These blocking games on resale will come back to bite MVC if they don't actively ROFR every unit. The population of unenrolled resales will grow as owners age out and sell  the premium units - reducing available DP points trades with enrolled premium units.

I appreciate those that have taken one for the team. This thread has helped me to evaluate this.


----------



## vacationtime1

CalGalTraveler said:


> Unless you are already an MVC owner with points, or have Vistana voluntary resale and want more choices, I find it hard to justify any enrollment fee  >$1000. We primarily use our unit and paid $12k resale. On what planet would one pay almost the same as the purchase amount just to gain access to a few more resorts when SOs and II exist for free?
> 
> DP Enrollment is like a voluntary resort so there are no rights conferred to future buyers so it doesn't add to the value of the unit like mandatory SOs. Besides, the people who buy premium properties like Oceanfront WKORV don't buy their units to trade.  How many MOC OF owners actively trade their properties or are enrolled? I bet very few.
> 
> These blocking games on resale will come back to bite MVC if they don't actively ROFR every unit. The population of unenrolled resales will grow as owners age out and sell  the premium units - reducing available DP points trades with enrolled premium units.
> 
> I appreciate those that have taken one for the team. This thread has helped me to evaluate this.


My thinking is similar.  I own OF at WKORV and use it every year.  imho, it's the best of the best.

Marriott apparently agrees with my ranking; the ~8300 DP's that Marriott will apparently offer for electing this unit is one of the highest in its system.

So how does Marriott intend to incentivize me to enroll this unit and maybe elect points for it from time to time?  *NOT* by making me buy Westin Flex units with no real resale value, high MF's, and no access to the OF suites we want.

We shall see how this plays out.  But unless Marriott steals unreserved OF inventory at the eight month mark, I don't see how it will acquire this specific inventory -- which is one of the locations it is touting as to-be-available for DC members post-merger.


----------



## DanCali

vacationtime1 said:


> We shall see how this plays out.  But unless Marriott steals unreserved OF inventory at the eight month mark, I don't see how it will get this particular inventory -- which is one of the locations it is touting as to-be-available for DC members post-merger.



The beauty of their model is that they don't need to have that inventory in the DC exchange at all. They don't really care if owners at some specific resort elect points or not. If a resort never has exchange availability then - so what...? They can still sell points with the promise that you can potentially book at WKORV. That promise is meaningless, but it'll be 100% true.

That said, I do believe they will actually get this inventory in the DC - plenty of it. If it's not from resale buyers like you it will be from the retail buyers who are allowed to enroll. The number of points offered would entice many to elect points and use those on 2-3 weeks of trips elsewhere, especially given high Hawaii airfares. I suspect WKORV enrolled weeks will be much more likely to elect points than WSJ or WKV enrolled weeks, for example. In my case, I am literally 75% better off renting my WKV week out for $4800+ vs. electing 4050 points that I can rent from someone else for $2750. It's not the same outcome for WKORV because the rental value of the ~8300 points is about $5700 which is close to or might even exceed the rental value of the OF week.

Moreover, I would even argue that WKORV resale owners are also more likely to pay up to enroll - what I mean by that is that, since the enrollment fee is "per week" (as opposed to "per point") a resale buyer would be more likely to spend on a high enrolment fee (aka developer purchase) if the week/s they own converts to many points vs. fewer points. Would you be more likely to spend on an outrageous enrollment fee if the week you own converted to 2000 DC points or if it converted to 8000 DC points?


----------



## dioxide45

vacationtime1 said:


> My thinking is similar.  I own OF at WKORV and use it every year.  imho, it's the best of the best.
> 
> Marriott apparently agrees with my ranking; the ~8300 DP's that Marriott will apparently offer for electing this unit is one of the highest in its system.
> 
> So how does Marriott intend to incentivize me to enroll this unit and maybe elect points for it from time to time?  *NOT* by making me buy Westin Flex units with no real resale value, high MF's, and no access to the OF suites we want.
> 
> We shall see how this plays out.  But unless Marriott steals unreserved OF inventory at the eight month mark, I don't see how it will acquire this specific inventory -- which is one of the locations it is touting as to-be-available for DC members post-merger.


There are certainly some OF owners that will want to elect DC points for certain stays. Maybe they want to try a Marriott somewhere. Then once DC has that inventory, they have the same reservation rights as the original owner.


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> Then once DC has that inventory, they have the same reservation rights as the original owner.




If I take that literally, then does it mean that:

(I) Vistana Inventory will not be available in the DC at 13 months out. Only 12 or less?

(II) The DC could, in theory, use its original owner reservation rights to use its available WKORV inventory to reserve all the 4th of July weeks in a nanosecond before an owner looking to reserve their home resort usage has a chance to even click the search button? I'm not saying it's what they would do, and it wouldn't help owners looking to book other summer weeks via the DC, but they could in theory book just more desirable weeks, especially when the Platinum season is 1-50?


----------



## daviator

DanCali said:


> (II) The DC could, in theory, use its original owner reservation rights to use its available WKORV inventory to reserve all the 4th of July weeks in a nanosecond before an owner looking to reserve their home resort usage has a chance to even click the search button? I'm not saying it's what they would do, and it wouldn't help owners looking to book other summer weeks via the DC, but they could in theory book just more desirable weeks, especially when the Platinum season is 1-50?



Yes, I think they COULD do that, and we’ve wrung our hands and worried about that here for some time.  Now Vistana could have done the same thing with Flex (assigned the most desirable weeks to the Flex pool) but they do not seem to have done so.  So let’s hope that MVC is as benevolent.


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> If I take that literally, then does it mean that:
> 
> (I) Vistana Inventory will not be available in the DC at 13 months out. Only 12 or less?
> 
> (II) The DC could, in theory, use its original owner reservation rights to use its available WKORV inventory to reserve all the 4th of July weeks in a nanosecond before an owner looking to reserve their home resort usage has a chance to even click the search button? I'm not saying it's what they would do, and it wouldn't help owners looking to book other summer weeks via the DC, but they could in theory book just more desirable weeks, especially when the Platinum season is 1-50?


A for (I), it probably depends on what the underlying documents permit. I know some resorts allow for weeks owners to make reservations 18 months in advance (SBP). Some others may not say one way or another. So it could be possible still for a Vistana booking to be made at 13 months utilizing only that inventory that has been deposited to DC.

(II) This is possible and has been discussed ad nauseum when Marriott rolled out the program and if they could to that with Marriott weeks reservations. Anything is possible, but they want happy owens.


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> A for (I), it probably depends on what the underlying documents permit. I know some resorts allow for weeks owners to make reservations 18 months in advance (SBP). Some others may not say one way or another. So it could be possible still for a Vistana booking to be made at 13 months utilizing only that inventory that has been deposited to DC.



For fixed week ownerships, 18 months is when the reservation is tentatively made by Vistana pending confirmation by the owners.  That's how it works at WSJ VGV in any case, and I believe that was confirmed by others with fixed week ownerships at some of the other resorts.  I believe that @rickandcindy23 had posted a while back about the confirmation timeframe for SBP being 2 years in advance based on terms in the deeds or the CC&Rs vice 18 months - I'm not sure if it's 2 years day-by-day or 2 calendar years (i.e., the ability to book in the fall or winter of 2025 once 2023 rolls around - that's how it works at Buganvilias, an independent TS in Puerto Vallarta, so I know it is a possibility).  



dioxide45 said:


> (II) This is possible and has been discussed ad nauseum when Marriott rolled out the program and if they could to that with Marriott weeks reservations. Anything is possible, but they want happy owens.



I'm not sure what ability Marriott would have to deposit unsold inventory - that probably won't be clear until the revised VSN rules and rules for the new exchange function are released.  The current VSN rules on the subject specify time limits for that kind of thing and requires estimating demand for VSN owners before bulk deposits in II, for example.


----------



## kozykritter

DanCali said:


> If I take that literally, then does it mean that:
> 
> (I) Vistana Inventory will not be available in the DC at 13 months out. Only 12 or less?
> 
> (II) The DC could, in theory, use its original owner reservation rights to use its available WKORV inventory to reserve all the 4th of July weeks in a nanosecond before an owner looking to reserve their home resort usage has a chance to even click the search button? I'm not saying it's what they would do, and it wouldn't help owners looking to book other summer weeks via the DC, but they could in theory book just more desirable weeks, especially when the Platinum season is 1-50?


I'm pretty sure I was told more than once in a sales presentation that Vistana inventory booked by MVC members will be available 12 months out. Nobody within the Vistana system has ever had the ability to jump the line and book more than 12 months out (except for fixed weeks), including elites, which makes it different from the MVC system. When they book in Vistana's system they will follow Vistana reservation rules the same way when we book in the MVC system we will follow their reservation rules. It really can't be any other way unless at some point they truly merge both systems into one.


----------



## VacationForever

kozykritter said:


> I'm pretty sure I was told more than once in a sales presentation that Vistana inventory booked by MVC members will be available 12 months out. Nobody within the Vistana system has ever had the ability to jump the line and book more than 12 months out (except for fixed weeks), including elites, which makes it different from the MVC system. When they book in Vistana's system they will follow Vistana reservation rules the same way when we book in the MVC system we will follow their reservation rules. It really can't be any other way unless at some point they truly merge both systems into one.


It is very likely to be different inventory.  As a Vistana owner, I can elect DC points up to 2 years before.  Technically, those weeks will go straight into DC inventory, which can become available at 13 months out.


----------



## DanCali

VacationForever said:


> It is very likely to be different inventory.  As a Vistana owner, I can elect DC points up to 2 years before.  Technically, those weeks will go straight into DC inventory, which can become available at 13 months out.



It _can_ become available at 13 months out, but if the DC has to follow the same booking rules as the original depositing owner, then that inventory would not be accessible until 12 months out regardless of the DC reservation rules.

With MVC it is different because (multiple) weeks owners could always book at 13 months out and the DC can probably take advantage of that.



dioxide45 said:


> Then once DC has that inventory, they have the same reservation rights as the original owner.



Vistana weeks have the following definitions in their Bylaws and, now that it was brought up by dioxide45, it makes more sense to me that nothing will show up until 12 months out.

*Home Resort Reservation Period*_ means the four (4)-month period beginning twelve (12) months and ending eight (8) months prior to the Check-in Day of the Vacation Period. The Home Resort Reservation Period is comprised of the Home Resort Fixed Priority Period (12-10 months) and the Home Resort Float Period._

*Home Resort Fixed Priority Period*_ means the two (2)-month period beginning twelve (12) months and ending ten (10) months prior to the Check-in Day of the Vacation Period, during which each Network Member owning a Fixed VOI has the exclusive right to reserve the Network Member's Fixed Vacation Period without competition from other Network Members, while each Network Member owning a Floating VOI competes exclusively with other Owners of VOIs at the Network Member's Home Resort to reserve Floating Vacation Periods within such Member’s Season and Unit type at the Member’s Home Resort, each subject to any limitations in the Resort Documents and the Network Rules. Not all Network Resorts will have a Home Resort Fixed Priority Period.
_
_*Home Resort Float Period* means the period during which all Network Members owning VOIs at a particular Home Resort have the exclusive right to compete to reserve the use of Vacation Periods within their Season and Unit type at their Home Resort, subject to the Resort Documents and the Network Rules._


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> It _can_ become available at 13 months out, but if the DC has to follow the same booking rules as the original depositing owner, then that inventory would not be accessible until 12 months out regardless of the DC reservation rules.
> 
> With MVC it is different because (multiple) weeks owners could always book at 13 months out and the DC can probably take advantage of that.
> 
> 
> 
> Vistana weeks have the following definitions in their Bylaws and, now that it was brought up by dioxide45, it makes more sense to me that nothing will show up until 12 months out.
> 
> *Home Resort Reservation Period*_ means the four (4)-month period beginning twelve (12) months and ending eight (8) months prior to the Check-in Day of the Vacation Period. The Home Resort Reservation Period is comprised of the Home Resort Fixed Priority Period (12-10 months) and the Home Resort Float Period._
> 
> *Home Resort Fixed Priority Period*_ means the two (2)-month period beginning twelve (12) months and ending ten (10) months prior to the Check-in Day of the Vacation Period, during which each Network Member owning a Fixed VOI has the exclusive right to reserve the Network Member's Fixed Vacation Period without competition from other Network Members, while each Network Member owning a Floating VOI competes exclusively with other Owners of VOIs at the Network Member's Home Resort to reserve Floating Vacation Periods within such Member’s Season and Unit type at the Member’s Home Resort, each subject to any limitations in the Resort Documents and the Network Rules. Not all Network Resorts will have a Home Resort Fixed Priority Period._
> 
> _*Home Resort Float Period* means the period during which all Network Members owning VOIs at a particular Home Resort have the exclusive right to compete to reserve the use of Vacation Periods within their Season and Unit type at their Home Resort, subject to the Resort Documents and the Network Rules._


I suspect that Marriott may try to flaunt that rule and allow 13 month reservations and hope to go unchallenged.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect that Marriott may try to flaunt that rule and allow 13 month reservations and hope to go unchallenged.


 I wish them luck with that with the eyes of TUG upon them!


----------



## kozykritter

VacationForever said:


> It is very likely to be different inventory.  As a Vistana owner, I can elect DC points up to 2 years before.  Technically, those weeks will go straight into DC inventory, which can become available at 13 months out.


The source of the inventory does not affect the booking rules of the Vistana system. If they allowed people to book earlier than 12 months, class action lawsuits would follow immediately. Marriott knows this. They didn't get where they are today by being stupid. They are just as risk adverse as the next big company with shareholders.


----------



## TravelTime

vacationtime1 said:


> My thinking is similar.  I own OF at WKORV and use it every year.  imho, it's the best of the best.
> 
> Marriott apparently agrees with my ranking; the ~8300 DP's that Marriott will apparently offer for electing this unit is one of the highest in its system.
> 
> So how does Marriott intend to incentivize me to enroll this unit and maybe elect points for it from time to time?  *NOT* by making me buy Westin Flex units with no real resale value, high MF's, and no access to the OF suites we want.
> 
> We shall see how this plays out.  But unless Marriott steals unreserved OF inventory at the eight month mark, I don't see how it will acquire this specific inventory -- which is one of the locations it is touting as to-be-available for DC members post-merger.



Wouldn’t Marriott just be able to exercise ROFR on this inventory to get it into the trust at half price or less? If they do not exercise ROFR on Maui OF inventory, then I will assume they own a bunch already and it was not sold out.

I hate to say this and once again it will be controversial…but Tuggers sound like they think they are smarter than a corporation employed by experts. I am not talking about the lowly employees at the sales offices but the highly paid marketing and finance experts. I used to work for the corporate office of a travel corporation and believe me, they knew what they were doing.


----------



## VacationForever

kozykritter said:


> The source of the inventory does not affect the booking rules of the Vistana system. If they allowed people to book earlier than 12 months, class action lawsuits would follow immediately. Marriott knows this. They didn't get where they are today by being stupid. They are just as risk adverse as the next big company with shareholders.


Time will tell.


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> I hate to say this and once again it will be controversial…but Tuggers sound like they think they are smarter than a corporation employed by experts. I am not talking about the lowly employees at the sales offices but the highly paid marketing and finance experts. I used to work for the corporate office of a travel corporation and believe me, they knew what they were doing.



Corporations are smart but they are not always right... Some of us Vistana owners still remember when they tacked the new "3rd party guest confirmation fee" about 5 years ago for all Vistana reservations, including home resort reservations. I don't recall all the specific details (I wasn't keeping up with tug regularly at the time) but, apparently, that was in violation of the original Starwood Vacation Ownership Terms and Conditions which stated that rental of home resort reservations (or just letting your siblings/kids/parents use your deeded property) were generally a legitimate use, suggesting there should be no extra associated fees, and Vistana ultimately caved on that issue. They may have even refunded all those guest fees at the time. Now the guest fee applies only to Network (Staroptions) reservations. I believe Tuggers were quite vocal on that issue and probably highly instrumental in making things right.

So even with a bunch of smart finance, marketing and legal experts, they may sometimes try to push the boundaries and hope they don't get challenged. If they don't get called on it, it's more profitable to them and if they do get called out on it, they can just rectify the issue. But even in cases like this I still agree with you - they know exactly what they are doing...  

P.S. Here is a link to that thread from 2017 - it has 20 pages of posts if you feel this thread is too short for you!









						Recent Vistana email re third party users
					

Got this email yesterday a few minutes before 6PM, advising of a new policy for third party users. Just wondering if others got it. Also wondering if this is normal practice for Vistana to make changes with such short notice? I realize they need to control costs but this looks like another...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect that Marriott may try to flaunt that rule and allow 13 month reservations and hope to go unchallenged.


Would it be a problem to flaunt the rules with time they own? I don't know about other resorts, but they own a substantial amount of Lagunamar.


----------



## rickandcindy23

@Eric B 
Sheraton Broadway Plantation is a bit different from other Vistana resorts (you don't know how I despise the "Vistana" name, which was the original name that Shell Vacations Club used when it started selling Vistana's older sections in FL).  It was originally (I think) Embassy resorts and was sold as deeded weeks that were floating in their various seasons.  The ability to book your deeded week at two years out is a reason buy a week in prime summer on the deed, like 24-32.  Then you can reserve it two years ahead of time, and you even can deposit that week into RCI. That's how Embassy had it set up.  And so many deposits are showing in RCI that it makes me crazy.  Many summer weeks are on RCI.  

But II deposits even with deeded weeks you reserve yourself are no longer deposited into II as your reserved week.  We get the blended trading power of the 9-43, 47 season, which is okay for trading power, but not as good as it used to be.  I never see summer weeks at SBP sitting online with II.


----------



## daviator

remowidget said:


> Would it be a problem to flaunt the rules with time they own? I don't know about other resorts, but they own a substantial amount of Lagunamar.


I think it would be a problem because they don’t own specific weeks (just like other owners don’t own specific weeks) – they own floating weeks within a particular category and season.

So unless they own 100% of the VOIs in a particular season – which they don’t – it wouldn’t be fair for them to book their ownerships 13 months ahead, because they’d be able to snap up all the most popular dates (and have the best priority time stamps for views, etc.) before the regular owners ever got to make reservations.  That would seriously disadvantage the existing week and point (Aventuras) owners at Lagunamar and similarly at other resorts.

I just have a hard time seeing how they could do this fairly.  It seems like it invites a lawsuit.


----------



## remowidget

daviator said:


> I think it would be a problem because they don’t own specific weeks (just like other owners don’t own specific weeks) – they own floating weeks within a particular category and season.
> 
> So unless they own 100% of the VOIs in a particular season – which they don’t – it wouldn’t be fair for them to book their ownerships 13 months ahead, because they’d be able to snap up all the most popular dates (and have the best priority time stamps for views, etc.) before the regular owners ever got to make reservations.  That would seriously disadvantage the existing week and point (Aventuras) owners at Lagunamar and similarly at other resorts.
> 
> I just have a hard time seeing how they could do this fairly.  It seems like it invites a lawsuit.


Someone who seemed very knowledgeable about Marriott told me that they were very fair about this issue. Something like if Marriott owns 20% of a resort, they take 20% of each day, category, etc. No cherry picking.


----------



## daviator

remowidget said:


> Someone who seemed very knowledgeable about Marriott told me that they were very fair about this issue. Something like if Marriott owns 20% of a resort, they take 20% of each day, category, etc. No cherry picking.


I certainly hope that is true.  And maybe it is.


----------



## ocdb8r

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect that Marriott may try to flaunt that rule and allow 13 month reservations and hope to go unchallenged.


It's funny because I had this same thought when the DC program launched; I thought - how can they allow anyone they pick to book 13 months out.  I figured they either a) flaunted the rules and just went with it; or b) twisted some of then then existing rules that allowed certain multiple week owners to book 13 months out if booking consecutive weeks (or something to that effect).  

However, for "b" while I know this was a rather common rule for MVC resorts, I didn't think it ALWAYS existed and was available for ALL mvc resorts.  Also, there was never a rule permitting shorter stay reservations to be booked 13 months in advance, yet somehow Chairman's level owners have this ability in the DC program.


----------



## DanCali

ocdb8r said:


> Also, there was never a rule permitting shorter stay reservations to be booked 13 months in advance, yet somehow Chairman's level owners have this ability in the DC program.




Actually Chairman, Presidential, and Executive (basically 7000+ DC points) can all book 1+ nights at 13 months out.


----------



## TravelTime

Aren’t all destination point owners really owners of a portion of all the weeks at all the resorts? Are DP owners considered to be owners? 

If MVC is giving booking advantages by level Chairman’s, Presidential, etc, wouldn‘t that mean a resale week owner with an unenrolled week and no status is going to be disadvantaged in booking?


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> Aren’t all destination point owners really owners of a portion of all the weeks at all the resorts? Are DP owners considered to be owners?
> 
> If MVC is giving booking advantages by level Chairman’s, Presidential, etc, wouldn‘t that mean a resale week owner with an unenrolled week and no status is going to be disadvantaged in booking?


I see it as different inventory pools.  Trust owners are considered owners of all resorts.


----------



## remowidget

TravelTime said:


> Aren’t all destination point owners really owners of a portion of all the weeks at all the resorts? Are DP owners considered to be owners?
> 
> If MVC is giving booking advantages by level Chairman’s, Presidential, etc, wouldn‘t that mean a resale week owner with an unenrolled week and no status is going to be disadvantaged in booking?


I don't think there really are resale Destination Points owners, not of the same level anyways. If you buy resale points, you have to pay a junk fee of like $3 a point. This gives you access to destination points. Not sure what happens if you don't pay, or if that is even possible.


----------



## Captron

rickandcindy23 said:


> @Eric B
> Sheraton Broadway Plantation is a bit different from other Vistana resorts   It was originally (I think) Embassy resorts and was sold as deeded weeks that were floating in their various seasons.  The ability to book your deeded week at two years out is a reason buy a week in prime summer on the deed, like 24-32.  Then you can reserve it two years ahead of time, and you even can deposit that week into RCI. That's how Embassy had it set up.


You are absolutely correct on all of the above, including the Embassy affiliation. I bought there pre-construction. The Embassy name was just a paid affiliation, not actual ownership by the company.


----------



## dioxide45

Captron said:


> You are absolutely correct on all of the above, including the Embassy affiliation. I bought there pre-construction. The Embassy name was just a paid affiliation, not actual ownership by the company.


Yes, Embassy was just an agreement between Vistana at the time and Promus Hotel Corp to market timeshare resorts under the Embassy Vacation Resort, Hampton Vacation Resort, and Homewood Vacation Resort brands. Oddly, around the same time that Vistana sold to Starwood, Promus sold to Hilton Hotels Corp.


----------



## timsi

remowidget said:


> Someone who seemed very knowledgeable about Marriott told me that they were very fair about this issue. Something like if Marriott owns 20% of a resort, they take 20% of each day, category, etc. No cherry picking.


I highly doubt it.


----------



## Negma

Good post today on Marriott Forum From todays investor meeting








						Abound! The combined Marriott/Vistana integrated exchange program now has a name.
					

Oh, I do like the name for whatever that's worth.   The name is alright and makes sense to me, as in 'the resort exchange landscape abounds with new options'.  I think the execs liked that.




					tugbbs.com


----------



## dioxide45

Watching the MVW Investor Day presentation, they keep mentioning that the Abound program won't be any additional fee or cost to get into Abound. It also seems that it will be an annual election and not every owner will have to join Abound. Mainly because of the club fee involved. So it would seem that it will work just like when Marriott owners enrolled in DC starting in 2010. There will be a process to enroll in Abound and enrolling isn't mandatory.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

That's promising news for resale but I will believe it when I see it. Also want to ensure that we are not giving up our mandatory resale capability in the fine print by enrolling.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> That's promising news for resale but I will believe it when I see it. Also want to ensure that we are not giving up our mandatory resale capability in the fine print by enrolling.


We don't know the eligibility specifics for enrollment. Discussion on the investor day call is very general and high level. It still seems that it will be an annual election for those that have enrolled in Abound.


----------



## DanCali

CalGalTraveler said:


> That's promising news for resale but I will believe it when I see it. Also want to ensure that we are not giving up our mandatory resale capability in the fine print by enrolling.



Well, that would totally kill the idea that WKORV owners are going to enroll in droves. Nobody wants the value of their 176K SO OF week to go from $30K-$35K to $3K-$5K overnight....


----------



## Negma

More from the Marriott call








						Abound! The combined Marriott/Vistana integrated exchange program now has a name.
					

Oh, I do like the name for whatever that's worth.   The name is alright and makes sense to me, as in 'the resort exchange landscape abounds with new options'.  I think the execs liked that.




					tugbbs.com


----------



## rickandcindy23

If we can just drop the name Vistana, which is such a stupid name.


----------



## TravelTime

Abound is a pretty good name. It is very very hard to find names. I did not like Bonvoy but in the end, the name becomes irrelevant. Now I like Bonvoy and can’t remember what it was before.


----------



## M&MsDad2008

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect that Marriott may try to flaunt that rule and allow 13 month reservations and hope to go unchallenged.



Class action attorneys love to go after companies like Marriott.  If the documents provide purchasers would only compete against other owners at 12 months out, then it would seem very unlikely that there would be a 13 month window for MVC DP holders at a place like WKORV.


----------



## M&MsDad2008

TravelTime said:


> Wouldn’t Marriott just be able to exercise ROFR on this inventory to get it into the trust at half price or less? If they do not exercise ROFR on Maui OF inventory, then I will assume they own a bunch already and it was not sold out.
> 
> I hate to say this and once again it will be controversial…but Tuggers sound like they think they are smarter than a corporation employed by experts. I am not talking about the lowly employees at the sales offices but the highly paid marketing and finance experts. I used to work for the corporate office of a travel corporation and believe me, they knew what they were doing.


Even if they were able to procure ROFR Maui OF inventory, they would still be bound by the overall agreement at 12 months out.  MVC would be like any other purchaser, and they could not have an extended reservation time period.  

If MVC was able to do that, there would be less inventory for an owner at WKORV or WKORVN to secure a reservation for an OF at 12 months out for their selected week  That most likely would be in violation when Starwood first sold the timeshares, starting in the early 2000s.  This would expose MVC to liability to a class action for all owners of those properties.

If MVC follows the advice of their lawyers, they will not provide the 13 month window at WKORV or WKORVN.


----------



## timsi

M&MsDad2008 said:


> Class action attorneys love to go after companies like Marriott.  If the documents provide purchasers would only compete against other owners at 12 months out, then it would seem very unlikely that there would be a 13 month window for MVC DP holders at a place like WKORV.


"
Home Resort Float Period means the period during which all Network Members owning VOIs at a particular Home
Resort *have the exclusive right to compete to reserve the use of Vacation Periods within their Season and Unit type
at their Home Resort*, subject to the Resort Documents and the Network Rules.
Home Resort means one or more Network Resorts where Accommodations in a vacation ownership plan are located
and in which Network Members in that vacation ownership plan have their VOI and derive their use rights. During the
Home Resort Reservation Period, Network Members may request reservations of Accommodations comprising the
Home Resort.
Home Resort Reservation Period means the four (4)-month period beginning twelve (12) months and ending eight (8)
months prior to the Check-in Day of the Vacation Period. The Home Resort Reservation Period is comprised of the
Home Resort Fixed Priority Period (12-10 months) and the Home Resort Float Period."


----------



## Venter

I personally cannot see the problem.  Is the destination club not like an exchange company?  Elect points which means you deposit your week into the exchange club and they can do with it what they want.  Release their inventory at 13 months and voila, members of the club can book before owners.  Remember, you will have to elect before 13 months in most cases to get club points.


----------



## timsi

Venter said:


> I personally cannot see the problem.  Is the destination club not like an exchange company?  Elect points which means you deposit your week into the exchange club and they can do with it what they want.  Release their inventory at 13 months and voila, members of the club can book before owners.  Remember, you will have to elect before 13 months in most cases to get club points.


The problem is that it violates the rules of the resort. I posted above the rules.


----------



## dioxide45

timsi said:


> "
> Home Resort Float Period means the period during which all Network Members owning VOIs at a particular Home
> Resort *have the exclusive right to compete to reserve the use of Vacation Periods within their Season and Unit type
> at their Home Resort*, subject to the Resort Documents and the Network Rules.
> Home Resort means one or more Network Resorts where Accommodations in a vacation ownership plan are located
> and in which Network Members in that vacation ownership plan have their VOI and derive their use rights. During the
> Home Resort Reservation Period, Network Members may request reservations of Accommodations comprising the
> Home Resort.
> Home Resort Reservation Period means the four (4)-month period beginning twelve (12) months and ending eight (8)
> months prior to the Check-in Day of the Vacation Period. The Home Resort Reservation Period is comprised of the
> Home Resort Fixed Priority Period (12-10 months) and the Home Resort Float Period."


Those are the VSN rules though. Couldn't they theoretically take non mandatory (voluntary) resorts out of VSN when they convey the deeds to Abound? It would save the the trust point owners having to pay VSN fees on all the weeks they convey to the trust and would allow all those weeks to work off whatever underlying rules are in the CC&R for each resort and not rely on VSN rules for reservations.


----------



## DanCali

M&MsDad2008 said:


> Even if they were able to procure ROFR Maui OF inventory, they would still be bound by the overall agreement at 12 months out.  MVC would be like any other purchaser, and they could not have an extended reservation time period.
> 
> If MVC was able to do that, there would be less inventory for an owner at WKORV or WKORVN to secure a reservation for an OF at 12 months out for their selected week  That most likely would be in violation when Starwood first sold the timeshares, starting in the early 2000s.  This would expose MVC to liability to a class action for all owners of those properties.



Unless they use humans to make reservations, then even if they stick to the 12-months they could still procure all the inventory they want before any owner even has a chance to click the search button at 00:00:01am.

So whether it's booked at 13 months or 12 months, owners could be disadvantaged if inventory is not booked equitably (pro-rata for all weeks in the season). No reason to believe it's not - time will tell...


----------



## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> Those are the VSN rules though. Couldn't they theoretically take non mandatory (voluntary) resorts out of VSN when they convey the deeds to Abound? It would save the the trust point owners having to pay VSN fees on all the weeks they convey to the trust and would allow all those weeks to work off whatever underlying rules are in the CC&R for each resort and not rely on VSN rules for reservations.


Actually they are the BYLAWS OF CANCUN LAGUNAMAR PROPERTY OWNERSHIP ASSOCIATION and they clearly state an exclusive right to compete during the Home resort period. I did not check but I assume other resorts have similar rules.


----------



## rcv82

DanCali said:


> Well, that would totally kill the idea that WKORV owners are going to enroll in droves. Nobody wants the value of their 176K SO OF week to go from $30K-$35K to $3K-$5K overnight....



Not that I want it to happen, but I don’t think it would affect the value of WKORV OF much. It is nice to have the backup, but it is a very expensive way to get StarOptions. I suspect the vast majority book their week near 12 months out. And if I didn’t want to use (or rent it), it would be worth far more in DP than StarOptions. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DanCali

Except DP don’t transfer on resale so any subsequent buyer would be buying a Hawaii week with high MF with no SO and no DP. 

I do agree that even in that scenario $3k-$5K is exaggerated. But saying all resale values for IV, OV and OF would be at least cut in half from where they are now if it was voluntary is not exaggerating imo. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## remowidget

TravelTime said:


> Wouldn’t Marriott just be able to exercise ROFR on this inventory to get it into the trust at half price or less? If they do not exercise ROFR on Maui OF inventory, then I will assume they own a bunch already and it was not sold out.
> 
> I hate to say this and once again it will be controversial…but Tuggers sound like they think they are smarter than a corporation employed by experts. I am not talking about the lowly employees at the sales offices but the highly paid marketing and finance experts. I used to work for the corporate office of a travel corporation and believe me, they knew what they were doing.


I bet they are doing ROFR where it makes financial sense, but probably not anywhere near half price.


----------



## remowidget

They can probably do whatever they want because of different pools of inventory. 

They do this with MVC properties. Legacy weeks can only book at 12 months, but the same location can be booked at 13 months with Destination Points. There is no conflict, because reservations are made with different pools of inventory.

Vistana has this now. Legacy weeks, flex weeks, and developer weeks. At least three pools of inventory. VSN allows us to cross book at 8 months, but I doubt all of the developer weeks get automatically dropped into VSN.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> I hate to say this and once again it will be controversial…but Tuggers sound like they think they are smarter than a corporation employed by experts. I am not talking about the lowly employees at the sales offices but the highly paid marketing and finance experts. I used to work for the corporate office of a travel corporation and believe me, they knew what they were doing.


The job of those executives working for MVW and my job as a consumer looking to buy/use a produce for the expected value I expect are very different and often competing. It doesn't make them any smarter than me nor me any smarter than them. We each have different goals. Theirs is to create the most attractive and desirable product they can to tell at a price the buyer is willing to pay. Mine is to may no more than I am willing to pay for the product they offer. If those two things get out of line, they probably won't be in their job for very long as sales slump. I have never interpreted what people say here as saying that MVC doesn't know what they are doing.


----------



## kozykritter

I miss this thread so I'm bringing it back to life. Actually I think most of the Marriott Abound thread could be merged into here because it's primarily turned into a speculation thread as well.

My speculation today is how Flex ownerships may be treated in Abound when electing DP with Marriott. We heard early on here that if you enroll a Vistana ownership with Marriott, when you make a yearly election for points you have to elect the entire VOI, no partials. This makes sense for deeded weeks as you have to give up the whole thing to make an exchange work. However Flex contracts aren't pegged to a specific week amount beyond the minimum 20,700 option amount they are sold for that represents the lowest bookable week at the Westin or Sheraton Flex properties. It makes me wonder if Flex owners will be given the ability to determine the amount of options from a contract that they want to elect while still keeping some in the Vistana system in a given year. For example one of my Flex contracts is 140,000 options which doesn't match any of Vistana's magical week numbers. I wonder if they will say you have to elect at least 20,700 options to be converted to DP or perhaps do a chart like II has for Flex ownership when you want to do an exchange and it shows you the amount of options you need per unit size per season. I asked MVC sales staff about this possibility at each of the two presentations that I've had recently and all I got back was blank stares and the admission that they really don't know very much about Vistana beyond the general integration information.


----------



## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> Perhaps now we should start taking bets on how many pages we'll reach by the time the hard launch starts!  I'll put my money on 106





kozykritter said:


> I think there's a good chance because this thread killed of the Merger Speculation thread where all the action was....no posts since Friday. Jabberwocky, I'd like to revise my page guess on that thread down from 106



You know if they merged it would blow straight past 106, right.  Best to leave them separate and get back to work on this one….


----------



## TAT

Just sat through the “owner’s update” pitch at Nanea. I’m a resale owner at WKORV(S) Ocean View, Annual. Closed 1/12/2022. Based on this the salesman told us that we have to buy FlexOptions to get our ownership grandfathered in to the Marriot system for the merger and that must happen prior to July 1. The cheapest offer was $14,500.00 for studio @ 67,000 flex options.
Since I bought at $13,500, there’s no way that’s gonna happen. 
I’m looking to find any available possibilities to get included into the Marriott system without buying retail from the man. I’ve made it this far based on the info from all the gurus here in this forum. Anyone have ideas on how to get in and get my property grandfathered in?


----------



## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> You know if they merged it would blow straight past 106, right.  Best to leave them separate and get back to work on this one….


When they announce the new program and provide real details, someone will just trott in to create a new thread and that one will blow up. There will also be many duplicate thread that will also need merged.


----------



## iowaguy09

kozykritter said:


> I miss this thread so I'm bringing it back to life. Actually I think most of the Marriott Abound thread could be merged into here because it's primarily turned into a speculation thread as well.
> 
> My speculation today is how Flex ownerships may be treated in Abound when electing DP with Marriott. We heard early on here that if you enroll a Vistana ownership with Marriott, when you make a yearly election for points you have to elect the entire VOI, no partials. This makes sense for deeded weeks as you have to give up the whole thing to make an exchange work. However Flex contracts aren't pegged to a specific week amount beyond the minimum 20,700 option amount they are sold for that represents the lowest bookable week at the Westin or Sheraton Flex properties. It makes me wonder if Flex owners will be given the ability to determine the amount of options from a contract that they want to elect while still keeping some in the Vistana system in a given year. For example one of my Flex contracts is 140,000 options which doesn't match any of Vistana's magical week numbers. I wonder if they will say you have to elect at least 20,700 options to be converted to DP or perhaps do a chart like II has for Flex ownership when you want to do an exchange and it shows you the amount of options you need per unit size per season. I asked MVC sales staff about this possibility at each of the two presentations that I've had recently and all I got back was blank stares and the admission that they really don't know very much about Vistana beyond the general integration information.


My recent question to ponder:  Will Sheraton Flex and Westin Flex be treated equal, once their different conversion values are taken into account?


----------



## kozykritter

iowaguy09 said:


> My recent question to ponder:  Will Sheraton Flex and Westin Flex be treated equal, once their different conversion values are taken into account?


I think once any ownership is converted into DP points, everyone is on equal footing. That is how Marriott handled things with deeded weeks back in 2010 when it created the points trust and there's no reason to think they won't run Abound the same way, despite their lack of experience in integrating an existing pure points program.


----------



## mjm1

TAT said:


> Just sat through the “owner’s update” pitch at Nanea. I’m a resale owner at WKORV(S) Ocean View, Annual. Closed 1/12/2022. Based on this the salesman told us that we have to buy FlexOptions to get our ownership grandfathered in to the Marriot system for the merger and that must happen prior to July 1. The cheapest offer was $14,500.00 for studio @ 67,000 flex options.
> Since I bought at $13,500, there’s no way that’s gonna happen.
> I’m looking to find any available possibilities to get included into the Marriott system without buying retail from the man. I’ve made it this far based on the info from all the gurus here in this forum. Anyone have ideas on how to get in and get my property grandfathered in?



I am not aware of any other way. Vistana sales reps insist that you have to buy some Flex points or wait until after the effective date and buy Marriott DC points at a higher price per point. We have spoken with MVC sales reps in the past few months and those reps have said Vistana owners will need to buy DC points to enroll. However, if you are also a MVC DC member and a Vistana owner then you won’t have to buy anything extra and your Vistana units will be enrolled automatically.

Today we met with a sales rep at Marriott’s Ko Olina and a higher level sales rep said that even a resale Vistana owner who owns Marriott DC will be enrolled automatically. I hope he is correct, but we won’t know for sure until they formally announce the program and indicate which owners are eligible to enroll.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## DavidnRobin

TAT said:


> Just sat through the “owner’s update” pitch at Nanea. I’m a resale owner at WKORV(S) Ocean View, Annual. Closed 1/12/2022. Based on this the salesman told us that we have to buy FlexOptions to get our ownership grandfathered in to the Marriot system for the merger and that must happen prior to July 1. The cheapest offer was $14,500.00 for studio @ 67,000 flex options.
> Since I bought at $13,500, there’s no way that’s gonna happen.
> I’m looking to find any available possibilities to get included into the Marriott system without buying retail from the man. I’ve made it this far based on the info from all the gurus here in this forum. Anyone have ideas on how to get in and get my property grandfathered in?



Get them to put that in writing (the whole purchase FOs BS) - that will shut them up fast.

It is possible since you own a Mandatory resale you will get opportunity to convert to DC, and you can buy resale DC points if you need more - if I understand correctly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DanCali

TAT said:


> Just sat through the “owner’s update” pitch at Nanea. I’m a resale owner at WKORV(S) Ocean View, Annual. Closed 1/12/2022. Based on this the salesman told us that we have to buy FlexOptions to get our ownership grandfathered in to the Marriot system for the merger and that must happen prior to July 1. The cheapest offer was $14,500.00 for studio @ 67,000 flex options.
> Since I bought at $13,500, there’s no way that’s gonna happen.
> I’m looking to find any available possibilities to get included into the Marriott system without buying retail from the man. I’ve made it this far based on the info from all the gurus here in this forum. Anyone have ideas on how to get in and get my property grandfathered in?




Two schools of thought on this offer.

- One might say that if you take that offer you get ~6500 DC points for your Maui week and ~2000 DC points conversion value for your Flex purchase. That's about 8500 DC points for $28K, or about $3.30 per DC point, which is actually close to resale values (before the extra $3 junk fee) - so you can view his as a great deal. On top of that, the blended MF/point is probably around 50c instead of around 65c like would be for actual DC points. If you want to use your week as points most if the time, it's a reasonable way to think about it.

- One could also say that the resale value of the flex you are buying is zero and so you are paying a ~$14.5K "enrollment fee" to enroll your week into an exchange company. By Marriott offer standards that's cheap, but it's still a $14,500 "enrollment fee". Interval charges $99/year and you already get that for free...

The Vistana retro rules actually require a purchase of $10K minimum to enroll a week. Odds are those deals will go away after the official announcement. You may be able to negotiate that purchase price of $14.5K down (you'll get fewer Flex points in return).

If you want to play in the DC sandbox this might end up being the best offer you might see for some time. The other alternative is buying 1000 points resale (which will cost around $6K after junk fees) and then, in years you want to use points, you will need to rent out your week and rent points from others (I have enrolled weeks, but I use this strategy because I get significantly more bang for the buck with rentals). The resale purchase of 1000 points is required to become a DC member so you can rent points from others and transfer to your account. It's possible that minimum purchase required is 1500 points and not 1000.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

DanCali said:


> If you want to play in the DC sandbox this might end up being the best offer you might see for some time. The other alternative is buying 1000 points resale (which will cost around $6K after junk fees) and then, in years you want to use points, you will need to rent out your week and rent points from others *(I have enrolled weeks, but I use this strategy because I get significantly more bang for the buck with rentals).* The resale purchase of 1000 points is required to become a DC member so you can rent points from others and transfer to your account. It's possible that minimum purchase required is 1500 points and not 1000.



Can you elaborate? Are you saying you get more DP points per dollar if you rent DC points rather than depositing your enrolled weeks for DC points? Is this because of your specific week has low DP values relative to renting it out? or does this apply to all enrolled week DP values? This is an interesting option but need to understand it.


----------



## SuiteLady

DanCali said:


> - One might say that if you take that offer you get ~6500 DC points for your Maui week and ~2000 DC points conversion value for your Flex purchase. That's about 8500 DC points for $28K, or about $3.30 per DC point, which is actually close to resale values (before the extra $3 junk fee) - so you can view his as a great deal. On top of that, the blended MF/point is probably around 50c instead of around 65c like would be for actual DC points. If you want to use your week as points most if the time, it's a reasonable way to think about it.



New here and trying to learn about the upcoming integration. Learned about TUG and bought a resale Vistana week last year that I used. I have many questions since this idea sounds enticing.
-How would I know how many destination points my flex purchase would convert to? 
-What are the maintenance fees on the flex purchase?
-How would I make a Flex purchase to enroll my week? 
-Do you have a contact person to inquire with?

Thank you in advance.


----------



## remowidget

iowaguy09 said:


> My recent question to ponder:  Will Sheraton Flex and Westin Flex be treated equal, once their different conversion values are taken into account?


Until I see otherwise, I am giving MVC the benefit of the doubt. I feel like they will be a neutral as they can. They are attempting to build a better product to sell. 

I haven't seen anything that seemed like a negative to me, well other than DP valuation and that seems to be made in relation to current DP properties which seems reasonable to me. If a Vistana property is vastly more DP than a nearby MVC property, who would stay at that Vistana Property? It's an optional way to use our ownership that they didn't have to give to us, but they will because they are trying to do the fair thing and keep us as customers.


----------



## remowidget

mjm1 said:


> Today we met with a sales rep at Marriott’s Ko Olina and a higher level sales rep said that even a resale Vistana owner who owns Marriott DC will be enrolled automatically. I hope he is correct, but we won’t know for sure until they formally announce the program and indicate which owners are eligible to enroll.


If you buy a Marriott resale week, is it automatically enrolled if you are a destination points owner? It seems unlikely to me when they charge $3 a point to enroll resale destination points.


----------



## dsmrp

SuiteLady said:


> New here and trying to learn about the upcoming integration. Learned about TUG and bought a resale Vistana week last year that I used. I have many questions since this idea sounds enticing.
> -How would I know how many destination points my flex purchase would convert to?
> -What are the maintenance fees on the flex purchase?
> -How would I make a Flex purchase to enroll my week?
> -Do you have a contact person to inquire with?
> 
> Thank you in advance.



Look here for the MF on Westin and Sheraton flex programs.








						OFFICIAL *2022* Vistana Maintenance Fees Thread
					

This thread is for 2022 Vistana maintenance fees.  Please remember to also post your Maintenance Fee details to the searchable database. Thanks.  http://eternaltides.com/svn/svnhome.aspx  Westin Flex Just received the 2022 maintenance fee billing for Westin Flex.  The fee for 2022 is...




					tugbbs.com
				




You'd have to get the DP conversion amount for your unit from a Vistana salesman. And according to sales, purchase now before the Abound program roll-out, and they stop selling Flex.  If you really want to buy flex, I do believe the urgency is real at this point in time. I think there will be a hard deadline when they'll cut off flex sales, and switch to only sales of DP.

Some have reported the roll-out and sales switch will be in August, and others have said July.

No official details yet of other options to enroll in Abound program, besides purchase of DP points. It may very well be not worthwhile to enroll & convert based on your unit &resort location.


----------



## DanCali

CalGalTraveler said:


> Can you elaborate? Are you saying you get more DP points per dollar if you rent DC points rather than depositing your enrolled weeks for DC points? Is this because of your specific week has low DP values relative to renting it out? or does this apply to all enrolled week DP values?




Yes, you nailed it. It all comes down to what are you alternate uses once you don't use your week as a home resort. Here is an actual example.

My Marriott NCV (Newport Coast Villas) Platinum week converts to 3475 DC points. That's one option... Alternatively, I can rent it out rather easily for $3500. Since points rental rate is about $0.70/point I can now use that cash to rent 5000 DC points (44% more than 3475). Alternatively, if 3475 points is sufficient, I can rent 3475 points for about $2450 and pocket the $1000+ I have left over. $1000 is too much cash to leave on the table, imo, just for the convenience of point election. If it was $200-$300 I'd be ok with it, but $1000, less so...

Weeks like Platinum WKV from the Vistana world will have a similar issue. The 2BR Platinum allegedly gets 4050 DC points. I can rent it out rather easily for $4200 (maybe even as high as $4800, but I'll be conservative). $4200 gets me 6000 DC points (about 50% more than 4050). Alternatively, I can rent 4050 DC points for about $2850, and have about $1400 left over from the rental. So, even though my WKV weeks might be eligible to elect points - the odds of me ever electing DC points for them are about zero.

That doesn't always work out like this. For example, NCV Platinum Plus 4th of July week converts to 5300 DC points. The rental value is about $3900 (just a bit higher than regular Platinum weeks above) which might get me 5600 DC points, or I can rent 5300 for around $3700 and keep $200 from the rental. That difference of $200 is something I can live with in order to save the hassle of renting, so I'd be much more inclined to elect points for this week. The Vistana Maui weeks got a generous point allocation so the math for those is probably similar to this. Parhaps it works out well for Platinum Lagunamar, but I'm less familiar with rental rates there.

In all the calculations above, the actual MFs don't matter because you pay those no matter what - whether you use the week, rent the week, or elect points for the week. So it's a matter of finding the most optimal use for a week you don't use for an actual stay.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

remowidget said:


> Vistana has this now. Legacy weeks, flex weeks, and developer weeks. At least three pools of inventory. VSN allows us to cross book at 8 months, but I doubt all of the developer weeks get automatically dropped into VSN.



Sorry, Vistana does NOT have this now. Weeks, Flex and Developer are deeds pools that have ownership rights.

Abound is an exchange which includes enrolled week non-owners. Please don't confuse exchange pools with deed pools. Exchange with non-owners is potentially a new and large-scale introduction into the home week reservation period for Vistana.


----------



## dioxide45

remowidget said:


> If you buy a Marriott resale week, is it automatically enrolled if you are a destination points owner? It seems unlikely to me when they charge $3 a point to enroll resale destination points.


It would not be enrolled and is eligible for enrollment unless you purchase a large amount of Trust Points direct from Marriott. Minimum purchase is probably north of $30,000 to get it enrolled.


----------



## DanCali

SuiteLady said:


> New here and trying to learn about the upcoming integration. Learned about TUG and bought a resale Vistana week last year that I used. I have many questions since this idea sounds enticing.
> -How would I know how many destination points my flex purchase would convert to?
> -What are the maintenance fees on the flex purchase?
> -How would I make a Flex purchase to enroll my week?
> -Do you have a contact person to inquire with?
> 
> Thank you in advance.




Conversion rates for Flex are scattered throughout this long thread. Maybe somewhere between 28:1 to 34:1 (??), depending if Sheraton or Westin Flex.

MFs for Flex are relatively high. Not sure what the number is, but points MFs are bad at Vistana and bad at MVC. That's because the Trust those points are in consists of (i) less desirable weeks like shoulder and mud season, (ii) high MFs relative to points like much more IV on Maui vs no OF. You'll probably find exact MF numbers in the 2022 MF sticky in the forum.

A Flex purchase can be made at a Vistana sales office - that would retro your week into VSN (even for Mandatory weeks, they will then be eligible for Elite status and Bonvoy conversion), but you should get it in writing that it would be part of the DC exchange if that's what you are concerned with.

I can DM you a salesperson who we worked with to retro our weeks a couple of years ago.


----------



## TAT

SuiteLady said:


> New here and trying to learn about the upcoming integration. Learned about TUG and bought a resale Vistana week last year that I used. I have many questions since this idea sounds enticing.
> -How would I know how many destination points my flex purchase would convert to?
> -What are the maintenance fees on the flex purchase?
> -How would I make a Flex purchase to enroll my week?
> -Do you have a contact person to inquire with?
> 
> Thank you in advance.


Sorry I don’t have more, but the cheapest Flex they would offer me was 67,000 (studio every other year) @ $14.5K with a maintenance fee of $706 per year. That’s based on this specific property set though I think (included 6 properties).
They did have a status guide for conversions and such, but I didn’t get a copy. 
I assume you’ll have to go sit through a pitch at a property to get a contact.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

What about an international purchase of a small MVC enrolled deed and requal?


----------



## iowaguy09

Has anyone heard that per Marriott Vacation new policy, as of July 15, Vistana EOY contracts cannot be traded in towards a new annual contract in any developer transactions?


----------



## byeloe

iowaguy09 said:


> Has anyone heard that per Marriott Vacation new policy, as of July 15, Vistana EOY contracts cannot be traded in towards a new annual contract in any developer transactions?


Haven't heard this.  Was it from a sales person?


----------



## iowaguy09

byeloe said:


> Haven't heard this.  Was it from a sales person?


Yes


----------



## byeloe

iowaguy09 said:


> Yes


I don't think anything is official yet, definitely not a specific date.


----------



## dsmrp

Does anyone remember if the new Abound club fee mentioned by Denise's contact,  would include guest certs ? I recall housekeeping and banking would be covered by the fee. Thx


----------



## iowaguy09

dsmrp said:


> Does anyone remember if the new Abound club fee mentioned by Denise's contact,  would include guest certs ? I recall housekeeping and banking would be covered by the fee. Thx


Yes, as confirmed in our owner update last week.


----------



## justJT

Currently at WPOVR and attended owners update.  Marriott transition should be sometime in July.  They had marketing materials that they said should be mailed to all of us shortly (MVC resort books with point values).

A couple of things stood out to us in update. We own Westin Adventuras (Mexico flex) EOY and after finding TUG bought at SVV resale EY.  Our SO for Westin is 81k even years and SVV is 67,100.  They said our DP conversion to MVC for WA would be 2700 and SVV 2350...BUT the SVV would not be considered for MVC DP conversion because it was a resale and considered unauthorized. So essentially we can only use the WA points for MVC.

Also regarding reservations,  for MVC they book at 13 months.  If you elect to convert to use MVC then we are eligible to book as early as 13 months as well.  Once we convert then our deeded weeks go into the system as available to others.  MVC owners are supposedly not going to be able to book VSN at 12 months since their ownership are not based on deeded weeks or specific resorts.  So Vistana and Sheraton owners are supposedly going to have an advantage with this merger.

Westin Flex sales from developer are supposed to end in July when the info of the Marriott transition is officially announced.


----------



## dioxide45

dsmrp said:


> Does anyone remember if the new Abound club fee mentioned by Denise's contact,  would include guest certs ? I recall housekeeping and banking would be covered by the fee. Thx


This is from page 42 of this thread and shows the fees that would be consolidated into the Abound Club Fee.








						CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
					

All salespeople want to sell something. I’ve documented earlier in this thread how I received the information and what I’ve been told - he didn’t just pull the number from thin air.  He didn’t try to tell me that I needed to buy more flex to bring our resale mandatory into the system - which I...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## kozykritter

Soooo...does anyone think there will be announcement about the integration this Friday July 1st? That is the date that the majority of salespeople have used with owners as the launch date according to posts here.

I've had two different MVC staff members tell me in the past 10 days that MVC enrolled owners will be able to start booking Vistana inventory on that day but I got the sense they were working from old information as they had no recent updates to change the date from what they were told in the past. My response to them was how can MVC owners book that inventory that is supposed to available only through Abound if they aren't launching that program until "later this summer"? Blank stares and "I dunno" were received in return. The mystery continues...


----------



## VacationForever

I thought in the last shareholder call, August is the new month?


----------



## kozykritter

VacationForever said:


> I thought in the last shareholder call, August is the new month?


I don't recall them giving an exact month. Brian Miller MVW President of Vacation Ownership said in his letter to MVC owners posted on Facebook that a 12-week sweepstakes and education campaign would start in August but the wording before it seemed to indicated that would occur after the program launches meaning perhaps July.


----------



## dioxide45

They said on their investor day webcast was "later this summer". That means between June 21st and September 22nd for all I know.

I don't know who Brian Miller is. Stephen Weisz is the CEO of Marriott Vacations WOrldwide and John E. Geller Jr will be taking over for him when Stephen retires at the end of this year. I also don't know of any letter to owners. Was it the letter sent to board members?

I wouldn't expect a Friday announcement. Perhaps something over the weekend like they did in 2010 when rolling out the DC program. I wouldn't expect anything right before or during the holiday weekend. They will be bombarded with calls and they are closed on the holiday Monday.


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## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> They said on their investor day webcast was "later this summer". That means between June 21st and September 22nd for all I know.
> 
> I don't know who Brian Miller is. Stephen Weisz is the CEO of Marriott Vacations WOrldwide and John E. Geller Jr will be taking over for him when Stephen retires at the end of this year. I also don't know of any letter to owners. Was it the letter sent to board members?
> 
> I wouldn't expect a Friday announcement. Perhaps something over the weekend like they did in 2010 when rolling out the DC program. I wouldn't expect anything right before or during the holiday weekend. They will be bombarded with calls and they are closed on the holiday Monday.


Brian Miller is the President of Vacation Ownership at MVW...my bad. All those senior executive titles seem the same to me


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> Brian Miller is the President of Vacation Ownership at MVW...my bad. All those senior executive titles seem the same to me


To clarify, it was a letter sent to board members. Not sure if it is individual HOA board members or members of the MVW board of director. In either case, it didn't go out to owners.


			https://tugbbs.com/forums/attachments/1655605453588-png.58342/


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> To clarify, it was a letter sent to board members. Not sure if it is individual HOA board members or members of the MVW board of director. In either case, it didn't go out to owners.
> 
> 
> https://tugbbs.com/forums/attachments/1655605453588-png.58342/


Semantics. Never said it went out to owners...said it was posted on Facebook. From memory of seeing it once I thought he addressed it to owners because it detailed benefits for owners using Abound...my bad. But my point was the information contained within it.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

Had our owner's update today at Nanea (other properties busy training staff apparently) and the date we were given was July 28th. Not sure we were told anything that hasn't already been mentioned or discussed on here but will try to answer questions if anyone has any.

We indicated we didn't have much/any money to spend so our starting offer was 81,000 Westin Flex for $37,746 ($33,971 with 10% discount), 162,000 SO incentive (valid 2 years with 8 month booking window) or 260,000 Bonvoy Points and they then worked their way down from that to the point where they said 'how much would you be willing to spend today. When I answered $0 it was a swift 'have a nice day' and we were out in about an hour. Don't know how they expect me to spend any money when they can't even supply me with free coffee and pastries  

We did actually get printed versions of the offer(s) for the first time I remember.


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> Had our owner's update today at Nanea (other properties busy training staff apparently) and the date we were given was July 28th. Not sure we were told anything that hasn't already been mentioned or discussed on here but will try to answer questions if anyone has any.
> 
> We indicated we didn't have much/any money to spend so our starting offer was 81,000 Westin Flex for $37,746 ($33,971 with 10% discount), 162,000 SO incentive (valid 2 years with 8 month booking window) or 260,000 Bonvoy Points and they then worked their way down from that to the point where they said 'how much would you be willing to spend today. When I answered $0 it was a swift 'have a nice day' and we were out in about an hour. Don't know how they expect me to spend any money when they can't even supply me with free coffee and pastries
> 
> We did actually get printed versions of the offer(s) for the first time I remember.


Ha ha, my husband was disappointed there were no cookies. We had to ask for water.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Posted on appropriate thread - sorry.
But here it is for those concerned...

Dear valued Owner, 

I am reaching out to share a renewed commitment to your future ownership experience. The last two years have been challenging, and if we’ve learned anything, it’s that our Owners want to go on vacation and continue to spend time with those who matter most. 

Service Enhancements
As you know, ownership is not only about the place you vacation but also about the service you receive. Most recently, we have worked diligently to bring our Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club products together to give Owners even more options. To support these efforts, a series of digital enhancements are needed to integrate the website and mobile app that Owners use. The goal is to deliver a better online experience, making it easier for you to search, book, and manage your vacations. 

These enhancements will require periodic technology and systems upgrades, some of which may result in outages and downtimes. As part of this modernization effort, steps are also being taken to combine online upgrades more efficiently, reducing the impact on you and other Owners. 

We are proactively sharing this with you and ask for your patience during this time. In the coming weeks, you will notice updates on scheduled maintenance and outages on the Owner website and app you use to help keep you better informed. 

With Gratitude
We are excited to bring our premium vacation club brands together and improve service to valued Owners like you. Your ownership and vacation experiences are about to get even better. 

Thank you for your continued ownership. We look forward to sharing more detailed information with you. 

To More Vacation Possibilities, 

Ron Essig
Senior Vice President, Global Owner Services
Marriott Vacations Worldwide


----------



## jabberwocky

I wonder if this is an indication that the existing Vistana website and app will be eventually retired (“integration”)?

Just to be on the safe side, owners may want to get printouts or screen capture of your existing ownerships (including MF balances) and reservations.  While it will probably be okay - you can never be too careful with IT transitions like this.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

jabberwocky said:


> I wonder if this is an indication that the existing Vistana website and app will be eventually retired (“integration”)?
> 
> Just to be on the safe side, owners may want to get printouts or screen capture of your existing ownerships (including MF balances) and reservations.  While it will probably be okay - you can never be too careful with IT transitions like this.


At our update last week we were told that there will eventually be a single 'super duper' integrated website. I don't think it was timed to be on 7/28 when the 'new' program comes into effect.


----------



## SteveS1

DavidnRobin said:


> As part of this modernization effort, steps are also being taken to combine online upgrades more efficiently, reducing the impact on you and other Owners.



Any thoughts what he means by “online upgrades”?

(edit) I guess he just means they are updating multiple sites (not just Villa Finder), and will try to minimize impacts by “combining” the schedules.. even  though  there just the one those of us  receiving the email care about.




DavidnRobin said:


> We are proactively sharing this with you and ask for your patience during this time.



This doesn’t recognize the competitive nature of some dates/properties. He really should say they will staff their call centers better during the migrations. Including having agents on-call midnight ET when Villa Finder is down.


----------



## Mowogo

justJT said:


> Also regarding reservations,  for MVC they book at 13 months.  If you elect to convert to use MVC then we are eligible to book as early as 13 months as well.  Once we convert then our deeded weeks go into the system as available to others.  MVC owners are supposedly not going to be able to book VSN at 12 months since their ownership are not based on deeded weeks or specific resorts.  So Vistana and Sheraton owners are supposedly going to have an advantage with this merger.



The nominal advantage is that Sheraton/Westin/Vistana owners will have access to both the Abound/DC exchange and VSN, while Marriott owners will only have Abound/DC.  If you are an elite Sheraton Flex owner, there is some real opportunity because now you get access to a wider (And for non-Sheraton locations) desirable home resort pool bookable at 13 months vs having to wait for 8 months to access VSN where any perceived "skim" is really just a cost to make Sheraton Flex into a more flexible currency.  Yes, there are inventory games that can be played when desirable weeks are deposited into the system, but Sheraton Flex owners really haven't had much realistic access to the most desirable weeks and units in VSN anyway with the restricted pool of home resorts and high demand for the desirable Westin units. This is not to downplay owner groups that may not gain as much benefit from the combined system


----------



## jabberwocky

Mowogo said:


> The nominal advantage is that Sheraton/Westin/Vistana owners will have access to both the Abound/DC exchange and VSN, while Marriott owners will only have Abound/DC.  If you are an elite Sheraton Flex owner, there is some real opportunity because now you get access to a wider (And for non-Sheraton locations) desirable home resort pool bookable at 13 months vs having to wait for 8 months to access VSN where any perceived "skim" is really just a cost to make Sheraton Flex into a more flexible currency.  Yes, there are inventory games that can be played when desirable weeks are deposited into the system, but Sheraton Flex owners really haven't had much realistic access to the most desirable weeks and units in VSN anyway with the restricted pool of home resorts and high demand for the desirable Westin units. This is not to downplay owner groups that may not gain as much benefit from the combined system


Personally I prefer the 8 month window vs 12 months. I can only really see 13 months being an advantage to those who rent or who have flexible schedules due to being self-employed or retired. I can pretty much define my own schedule, but my spouse sometimes has her vacation schedule released only 4 months in advance.

I’ve been quite pleased with Westin Flex, and I suspect more SFlex owners wish they would have a paid a bit of a premium to have access to the more in demand resorts as home resorts rather than through VSN.


----------



## Mowogo

jabberwocky said:


> Personally I prefer the 8 month window vs 12 months. I can only really see 13 months being an advantage to those who rent or who have flexible schedules due to being self-employed or retired. I can pretty much define my own schedule, but my spouse sometimes has her vacation schedule released only 4 months in advance.
> 
> I’ve been quite pleased with Westin Flex, and I suspect more SFlex owners wish they would have a paid a bit of a premium to have access to the more in demand resorts as home resorts rather than through VSN.


13 month is an advantage for those with inflexible schedules as you have extra time to search and secure your inflexible dates (Schools, certain busy times at work).  

And I agree that there are probably quite a few that would wish for Westin Flex (Parents bought Sheraton because it satisfied their locations, my tastes are more toward Westin), but I believe it is that exact incongruity is why I believe that it is a gain for Sheraton Flex For desirable properties with access to Marriott and Ritz Carlton properties at 12/13 months and then gaining access to any Westin deposits as well in what would be the Sheraton Flex home resort period.


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> I’ve been quite pleased with Westin Flex, and I suspect more SFlex owners wish they would have a paid a bit of a premium to have access to the more in demand resorts as home resorts rather than through VSN.


Glad it worked out for you! This SFlex owner is happy not to have paid the premium for WFlex as having priority in Hawaii or the desert is not important to how I travel...more into areas like Steamboat and Avon where I can hike mountains comfortably in summer. Now if the Westin Riverfront had a bunch of summer weeks in WFlex, I would have ponied up but I've always been told WFlex only has WRV mud weeks between summer and winter. I can usually manage a summer studio unit there 8 months out through VSN so I'm good.


----------



## kozykritter

Just attended a tour at Steamboat and did it as a General Information tour (meaning no incentive gift given or sales presentation done) since I just bought MVC points three weeks ago and wanted to be clear I would not be buying anything more today. I came in with a long list of questions and learned a few interesting things, any of which you can take onboard if you wish.

First thing I learned is just like MVC sales staff, Vistana has the general outline of what is happening regarding Abound but only a few exact details, mostly ones related to driving sales (duh). The first detail is they have been told recently that only developer or requalified resale purchases will be eligible to participate in Abound immediately and with no enrollment fee. Marriott has not said anything to them yet about if/how unqualified resales would be able to qualify to participate in Abound (i.e. by paying an enrollment fee or requalifying directly with MVC after launch, perhaps). This made sense to me because while Vistana has been fairly consistently friendly towards resale requalification over time with relatively reasonable set $ amounts and the ability to do it whenever, it is my understanding that Marriott's attitude towards post-2010 resales has been much more chilly, only offering requalification sporadically and usually for a purchase of $35K+.  Anyway, the sales person knew I own all developer VOIs and that I was there on a GI tour with zero chance of buying so I felt his words here about Abound eligibility were genuine.

Second, when electing points through Abound, deeded owners will need to give up their entire week whereas Flex owners can decide how many options from each VOI they want to elect in a given year. This matches my guess in an earlier post that it would work the same way exchanges/deposits currently do in II for deeded weeks and Flex.

Third, they had a recent visit from the Sr VP of MVW Sales John Ruble who told them MVC had to push their June 30th Abound launch back to the second or third week of July, presumably to ensure the crosslinking functions of the integration/Abound would be successfully in place and not cause utter chaos. (We'll see about that one! ). The sales person joked (to me) that probably meant the middle of August.

John also said they are looking to take the best ownership benefits/features of each program and make them available to owners equally across both Vistana and MVC by generally raising things up to match rather than downgrading them.  An example the sales person gave is that Vistana owners can convert 100% of their qualified ownership to Bonvoy points whereas in MVC that feature tops out at 75% for the highest elite level. In this case they likely would look to make it 100% for everyone across both programs. Banking was another area where Vistana has a more generous benefit that may be matched over to MVC. Things I would like to see come the other way are StarOption transfers/rentals between owners (it was a question on this years Sheraton Vacation Club survey...fingers crossed!) and last minute reservations option discounts for any property, not just the few listed in Escapes. Booking windows were not discussed (didn't cross my mind to ask since I rarely book high demand weeks). No timeline was given for these types of changes so could be now or later or never 

All my other questions were about specific details that were too far into the weeds for him to answer considering how few details they've been given. I'm hoping they all get answered when it launches, you know, because I'm an optimist at heart. Ok, that's the report from this end.


----------



## dsmrp

We've got an update meeting early next week. I'll try to get more details about booking windows. Although by the way the concierge-sales coordinator was phrasing his pitch, they don't sound to have much info than what was already publicly announced.  E.g. we'll have 80 more resorts to reserve vs the 24 for Marriott owners. Also he said it was all new as of last month.


----------



## dsmrp

We did our owner's update today.  The person we were assigned seemed relatively new, going thru a somewhat standard spiel. A few questions he couldn't answer or didn't know, such as Marriott to Marriott trade priority in II, or Marriott owners renting their DC points to other owners.  There were some things he said which were different than what others had reported earlier, so take it with a grain of salt based on my interpretation of his knowledge level.  The rep  didn't seem to know much about current Marriott usage.

1.  Estimate for go-live of Abound program is still end of the month or early August.  Still waiting on IT.
     Strangely our sales rep indicated that Abound might not be the final name.

2.  All eligible network owners, direct purchases or retro'ed into network, will be automatically enrolled in new program.  
No manual enrollment  by Vistana owners.   Resales of mandatory resorts will not be offered any fee type of enrollment.   Nothing new here. 

3a.  I asked about election deadlines for "Abound" points, and gave example of  Marriott enrolled weeks owners need to do this each year for DC points.
This is where the rep had a different answer.  He said no deadlines and no manual election required for Vistana owners in Abound.
He said there would be 2 tabs in the reservation system, one for Vistana options reservations and another for Marriott Abound reservations.
So if we wanted to use Abound DC points, we would just make a DC based reservation from available inventory.
That would automatically release in the background my home unit(s) for the needed DC points.
The rep didn't hesitate to answer this.  We asked a couple of times.  But he wasn't aware that Marriott owners have election deadlines.
3b.  I asked about some Marriott owners having 13 month booking priority, and how that would affect home resort owner priority at 12 months.
He was fuzzy about this, and said what we probably wanted to hear, that home resort owners would have their 12-8 months priority preference.
But I can see in theory, if a Vistana owner who has 13 month's booking priority in Marriott, could opt to reserve a Marriott unit at 13 months, thereby relinquishing a unit at their home resort.  So Marrriott could take a Vistana unit week to put into the Abound program at 13 months. 

4a. The main selling point the rep emphasized for converting to Westin flex is that with Abound, it will become much much more difficult to make options reservations at 8 months.  Because at 8 months, we'll be competing with the Marriott Abound members for Vistana units.  I'm not sure if that will occur, but it's what sales and maybe Marriott leadership  think.  The website woes are sure conditioning current owners towards this; whether it is artificial or not.  The message was buy flex so we can reserve at 12 months.
4b.  They'll stop selling Westin flex when Abound goes live.  Westin flex is currently static, no new deeds to the trust.  The manager couldn't/wouldn't tell us the composition of the trust deeds, e.g. what percentage or numbers of each resort in the trust. Or which seasons they covered.

5.  Vistana elite levels will be grandfathered to MVC levels, e.g. 3* to Executive etc.  The rep barely mentioned all the new benefits of the MVC which Vistana network owners will get.  Nor the new club fee.  

6.  We were pleasantly surprised to find out our units will convert to more DC points than we thought.  I was expecting a very low conversion value.
Our ratios were 31:1 and 33:1.   Westin flex is at 28.8:1.


That's about all.  We'll see in a few weeks if #3a comes to pass.


----------



## BluePrelude

your ratios are for Sheraton Flex?


----------



## dsmrp

BluePrelude said:


> your ratios are for Sheraton Flex?


No for deeded units at SVR.


----------



## dioxide45

dsmrp said:


> We did our owner's update today.  The person we were assigned seemed relatively new, going thru a somewhat standard spiel. A few questions he couldn't answer or didn't know, such as Marriott to Marriott trade priority in II, or Marriott owners renting their DC points to other owners.  There were some things he said which were different than what others had reported earlier, so take it with a grain of salt based on my interpretation of his knowledge level.  The rep  didn't seem to know much about current Marriott usage.
> 
> 1.  Estimate for go-live of Abound program is still end of the month or early August.  Still waiting on IT.
> Strangely our sales rep indicated that Abound might not be the final name.
> 
> 2.  All eligible network owners, direct purchases or retro'ed into network, will be automatically enrolled in new program.
> No manual enrollment  by Vistana owners.   Resales of mandatory resorts will not be offered any fee type of enrollment.   Nothing new here.
> 
> 3a.  I asked about election deadlines for "Abound" points, and gave example of  Marriott enrolled weeks owners need to do this each year for DC points.
> This is where the rep had a different answer.  He said no deadlines and no manual election required for Vistana owners in Abound.
> He said there would be 2 tabs in the reservation system, one for Vistana options reservations and another for Marriott Abound reservations.
> So if we wanted to use Abound DC points, we would just make a DC based reservation from available inventory.
> That would automatically release in the background my home unit(s) for the needed DC points.
> The rep didn't hesitate to answer this.  We asked a couple of times.  But he wasn't aware that Marriott owners have election deadlines.
> 3b.  I asked about some Marriott owners having 13 month booking priority, and how that would affect home resort owner priority at 12 months.
> He was fuzzy about this, and said what we probably wanted to hear, that home resort owners would have their 12-8 months priority preference.
> But I can see in theory, if a Vistana owner who has 13 month's booking priority in Marriott, could opt to reserve a Marriott unit at 13 months, thereby relinquishing a unit at their home resort.  So Marrriott could take a Vistana unit week to put into the Abound program at 13 months.
> 
> 4a. The main selling point the rep emphasized for converting to Westin flex is that with Abound, it will become much much more difficult to make options reservations at 8 months.  Because at 8 months, we'll be competing with the Marriott Abound members for Vistana units.  I'm not sure if that will occur, but it's what sales and maybe Marriott leadership  think.  The website woes are sure conditioning current owners towards this; whether it is artificial or not.  The message was buy flex so we can reserve at 12 months.
> 4b.  They'll stop selling Westin flex when Abound goes live.  Westin flex is currently static, no new deeds to the trust.  The manager couldn't/wouldn't tell us the composition of the trust deeds, e.g. what percentage or numbers of each resort in the trust. Or which seasons they covered.
> 
> 5.  Vistana elite levels will be grandfathered to MVC levels, e.g. 3* to Executive etc.  The rep barely mentioned all the new benefits of the MVC which Vistana network owners will get.  Nor the new club fee.
> 
> 6.  We were pleasantly surprised to find out our units will convert to more DC points than we thought.  I was expecting a very low conversion value.
> Our ratios were 31:1 and 33:1.   Westin flex is at 28.8:1.
> 
> 
> That's about all.  We'll see in a few weeks if #3a comes to pass.


I suspect the rep was making much of this up as they went along...


----------



## kozykritter

dsmrp said:


> We did our owner's update today.  The person we were assigned seemed relatively new, going thru a somewhat standard spiel. A few questions he couldn't answer or didn't know, such as Marriott to Marriott trade priority in II, or Marriott owners renting their DC points to other owners.  There were some things he said which were different than what others had reported earlier, so take it with a grain of salt based on my interpretation of his knowledge level.  The rep  didn't seem to know much about current Marriott usage.
> 
> 1.  Estimate for go-live of Abound program is still end of the month or early August.  Still waiting on IT.
> Strangely our sales rep indicated that Abound might not be the final name.
> 
> 2.  All eligible network owners, direct purchases or retro'ed into network, will be automatically enrolled in new program.
> No manual enrollment  by Vistana owners.   Resales of mandatory resorts will not be offered any fee type of enrollment.   Nothing new here.
> 
> 3a.  I asked about election deadlines for "Abound" points, and gave example of  Marriott enrolled weeks owners need to do this each year for DC points.
> This is where the rep had a different answer.  He said no deadlines and no manual election required for Vistana owners in Abound.
> He said there would be 2 tabs in the reservation system, one for Vistana options reservations and another for Marriott Abound reservations.
> So if we wanted to use Abound DC points, we would just make a DC based reservation from available inventory.
> That would automatically release in the background my home unit(s) for the needed DC points.
> The rep didn't hesitate to answer this.  We asked a couple of times.  But he wasn't aware that Marriott owners have election deadlines.
> 3b.  I asked about some Marriott owners having 13 month booking priority, and how that would affect home resort owner priority at 12 months.
> He was fuzzy about this, and said what we probably wanted to hear, that home resort owners would have their 12-8 months priority preference.
> But I can see in theory, if a Vistana owner who has 13 month's booking priority in Marriott, could opt to reserve a Marriott unit at 13 months, thereby relinquishing a unit at their home resort.  So Marrriott could take a Vistana unit week to put into the Abound program at 13 months.
> 
> 4a. The main selling point the rep emphasized for converting to Westin flex is that with Abound, it will become much much more difficult to make options reservations at 8 months.  Because at 8 months, we'll be competing with the Marriott Abound members for Vistana units.  I'm not sure if that will occur, but it's what sales and maybe Marriott leadership  think.  The website woes are sure conditioning current owners towards this; whether it is artificial or not.  The message was buy flex so we can reserve at 12 months.
> 4b.  They'll stop selling Westin flex when Abound goes live.  Westin flex is currently static, no new deeds to the trust.  The manager couldn't/wouldn't tell us the composition of the trust deeds, e.g. what percentage or numbers of each resort in the trust. Or which seasons they covered.
> 
> 5.  Vistana elite levels will be grandfathered to MVC levels, e.g. 3* to Executive etc.  The rep barely mentioned all the new benefits of the MVC which Vistana network owners will get.  Nor the new club fee.
> 
> 6.  We were pleasantly surprised to find out our units will convert to more DC points than we thought.  I was expecting a very low conversion value.
> Our ratios were 31:1 and 33:1.   Westin flex is at 28.8:1.
> 
> 
> That's about all.  We'll see in a few weeks if #3a comes to pass.


Thanks for the report! I could see automatic enrollment in Abound happening for those eligible ownerships since it's really just an additional feature with no cost or consequence involved from enrollment. It's the electing of points that changes things each year for an owner. It's the same thing for converting to Bonvoy points. Eligible ownerships are enrolled automatically in that feature but it has no effect on said ownerships unless they elect to convert to points in a given year.


----------



## William Seward

Can anybody provide some advise.

I received the below email about a virtual meeting last week. I chose Tuesday @ 4:30pm. I haven't heard back from them in reference to this meeting. I suspect as other zoom meeting I will need a zoom meeting invitation, which I haven't received (assuming it's zoom). I'm also taking it for granted having received the email on Wed 07/06 that the meeting I chose is for today.

Has anybody attended these virtual meeting in the past and how did they communicate the invitation.

Thanks

Bill Seward


----------



## vacationtime1

William Seward said:


> Can anybody provide some advise.
> 
> I received the below email about a virtual meeting last week. I chose Tuesday @ 4:30pm. I haven't heard back from them in reference to this meeting. I suspect as other zoom meeting I will need a zoom meeting invitation, which I haven't received (assuming it's zoom). I'm also taking it for granted having received the email on Wed 07/06 that the meeting I chose is for today.
> 
> Has anybody attended these virtual meeting in the past and how did they communicate the invitation.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Bill Seward
> 
> View attachment 59979


Did you buy your Nanea timeshare (or your "HomeOptions") directly from Vistana? 

If so, there is nothing in this sales pitch for you; based on what we have been hearing, all developer-purchased units will automatically be enrolled into the new system.  You don't have to buy anything new; the "review" is another word for a sales pitch.


----------



## dsmrp

William Seward said:


> Can anybody provide some advise.
> 
> I received the below email about a virtual meeting last week. I chose Tuesday @ 4:30pm. I haven't heard back from them in reference to this meeting. I suspect as other zoom meeting I will need a zoom meeting invitation, which I haven't received (assuming it's zoom). I'm also taking it for granted having received the email on Wed 07/06 that the meeting I chose is for today.
> 
> Has anybody attended these virtual meeting in the past and how did they communicate the invitation.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Bill Seward
> 
> View attachment 59979


Perhaps call Nanea, main #, and ask for Sales?
But I agree with @vacationtime1 , if you purchased Nanea from Vistana/Marriott,  nothing too much more to learn except how many Marriott points your Nanea will convert to, if you choose.
If your WKVs are resales , then Sales will pitch to upgrade them for $$ to Westin Flex. The flex MFs are on par with Maui resorts ,. IMO.


----------



## William Seward

Is their any chance the will be explaining the Abound website? 

How do we handle the point allotment with a reservation that doesn't completely use all of our point allotted with that reservation. Basically, can I use a portion for a MVC stay and then us the remainder at a Westin property? Am I still guaranteed the 12 month window at my home resort, But at any other resort it still 8 months.  That during that four month period am I still only competing against other home resort owners or the entire group.  Will the Marriot point system replace the Westin/Vistana point structure, based on the conversion.

Those are some of the question I would like to get answer too. The sales pitch isn't about the new Abound program? Just a pitch...............


----------



## kozykritter

William Seward said:


> Is their any chance the will be explaining the Abound website?
> 
> How do we handle the point allotment with a reservation that doesn't completely use all of our point allotted with that reservation. Basically, can I use a portion for a MVC stay and then us the remainder at a Westin property? Am I still guaranteed the 12 month window at my home resort, But at any other resort it still 8 months.  That during that four month period am I still only competing against other home resort owners or the entire group.  Will the Marriot point system replace the Westin/Vistana point structure, based on the conversion.
> 
> Those are some of the question I would like to get answer too. The sales pitch isn't about the new Abound program? Just a pitch...............


Recent attendees to sales presentations with both Vistana and Marriott have reported that the sales people have very little details about the specifics of how Abound will work. They were just given the general details so that they could sell it to owners. Occasionally you run into a salesperson that appears to have created their own version and are telling owners that in order to get them to buy. If your goal is to get details, I'd say skip it especially because they didn't mention any incentive in there


----------



## dioxide45

William Seward said:


> Is their any chance the will be explaining the Abound website?
> 
> How do we handle the point allotment with a reservation that doesn't completely use all of our point allotted with that reservation. Basically, can I use a portion for a MVC stay and then us the remainder at a Westin property? Am I still guaranteed the 12 month window at my home resort, But at any other resort it still 8 months.  That during that four month period am I still only competing against other home resort owners or the entire group.  Will the Marriot point system replace the Westin/Vistana point structure, based on the conversion.
> 
> Those are some of the question I would like to get answer too. The sales pitch isn't about the new Abound program? Just a pitch...............


Without knowing 100% for sure, we can't say definitively. But I suspect you will have to elect a whole VOI in a given year for Abound Club Points. So if you have a VSN week and also some Westin Flex, you can elect one of them or both for Abound Points. If you own two separate Westin Flex contracts, you can elect one or both for Abound points. Any VOIs elected for Abound are now Abound Club points and can only be used for reservations in Abound. You can still exchange for Vistana resorts that are in Abound, but you won't be able to come back out and book something in VSN at 8 months with those points.

If you only own a single Vistana week or Flex VOI, once you elect Abound Club Points you are tied to inventory that is available in Abound and you can't later go back to VSN for a reservation.

As for the 12-8 month window, we don't really know the answer. There was a separate long discussion about this. The way we see it working is that you would be competing against other owners who have not elected their VOIs for Abound Club Points. THere will be separate inventory for those that elected Abound and only people with Abound Club Points can reserve there, owners that have not elected for Abound will be competing against each other for inventory not placed into Abound.


----------



## dsmrp

On 2nd thought now from my sales meeting, I'm wondering about how 8 months star options reservations will become tougher, as sales asserted.
Will it be that MVC Abound members will be allowed into the options reservations pool at 8 months? Some conversion of their DC points into VSN options?
Or will Marriott pull  all  Vistana inventory that they control, into Abound pool at 8 months?

I remember my sales person saying that Legal was done, and all they were waiting on for final integration go-live, was IT.
He also said, in a separate comment at the start of our meeting,  Marriott doesn;t want to get sued with respect to VSN.
It was kind of an odd thing to say, but perhaps meant to reassure based on collective feedback from prior sales meetings??
Which leads me to think they will respect  owners' home resort reservation rights, and not significantly change the structure of VSN.


----------



## William Seward

Thank You dioxide45, kozykritter, dsmrp, vacationtime1,

Reading dioxide45 comment "There will be separate inventory for those that elected Abound and only people with Abound Club Points can reserve their". I know it only speculation. I your not planning on using your home resort in a given year, why not convert to Abound points. Thus, having access to all of Abound inventory from the different programs including your host program Westin, MVC etc., Thus, you could split your point allotment between MVC and Westin properties. 

Oh well, I'm just speculating it's still a mine field.

Thanks

Bill Seward


----------



## cubigbird

Maybe this has been already discussed in the 100+ previous pages but do you foresee us being able to see Abound inventory PRIOR to electing points?  I wouldn't want to elect points blindly not knowing what's available.  I'd hate to elect and be disappointed not being able to book what we want since we can't go back to VSE once we elect.


----------



## dsmrp

kozykritter said:


> Thanks for the report! I could see automatic enrollment in Abound happening for those eligible ownerships since it's really just an additional feature with no cost or consequence involved from enrollment. It's the electing of points that changes things each year for an owner. It's the same thing for converting to Bonvoy points. Eligible ownerships are enrolled automatically in that feature but it has no effect on said ownerships unless they elect to convert to points in a given year.


Compared to how Hyatt HRC reservations operate, it is somewhat plausible that by making a Marriott Abound resort reservation you are also concurrently electing for Abound points.  In HRC I have home resort/home week preference HRPP for 6 months.  But if I make a reservation at any other resort within 6 months, I am giving up  my home week preference and entering my CUP (club use period) and all leftover points are CUP points.
It doesn't make sense though for Marriott to treat Vistana owners differently than Marriott DC owners in how they elect points.
I thought they were aiming for simpiification on operational rules in the integration.


----------



## DanCali

dsmrp said:


> 2.  All eligible network owners, direct purchases or retro'ed into network, will be automatically enrolled in new program.
> No manual enrollment  by Vistana owners.   Resales of mandatory resorts will not be offered any fee type of enrollment.   Nothing new here.







kozykritter said:


> Thanks for the report! I could see automatic enrollment in Abound happening for those eligible ownerships since it's really just an additional feature with no cost or consequence involved from enrollment. It's the electing of points that changes things each year for an owner. It's the same thing for converting to Bonvoy points. Eligible ownerships are enrolled automatically in that feature but it has no effect on said ownerships unless they elect to convert to points in a given year.



Enrollment of a week cannot occur until you agree to the "Terms and Conditions" of the exchange company. Therefore, I am highly skeptical about the "automatic enrollment" representation.


----------



## kozykritter

DanCali said:


> Enrollment of a week cannot occur until you agree to the "Terms and Conditions" of the exchange company. Therefore, I am highly skeptical about the "automatic enrollment" representation.


I suspect those would pop up when you went to actually elect points for the first time and  "activated" your enrollment.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> I suspect those would pop up when you went to actually elect points for the first time and  "activated" your enrollment.


They key difference with enrollment is that single VOI owners and even some multi VOI Vistana owners will have higher Club Fees with Abound than they do in VSN. They will need to make sure the owners acknowledge that and that the fees are clear. I don't see it as part of the process of electing points for the first time but rather a separate step upfront like it is with Marriott today.


----------



## dioxide45

cubigbird said:


> Maybe this has been already discussed in the 100+ previous pages but do you foresee us being able to see Abound inventory PRIOR to electing points?  I wouldn't want to elect points blindly not knowing what's available.  I'd hate to elect and be disappointed not being able to book what we want since we can't go back to VSE once we elect.


RIght now with Marriott DC inventory, you can see if a night has something available at a resort. Though you can't see how many points it costs (without looking at the charts) and you can't see what unit sized might be available. An example. I have 200 points in our account. If I search for a signle night I can see that there is studio and 1BR availability but because a 2BR is more points than I have, I can't see if a 2BR is available to book. Of course, they are overhauling their website, so it may work differently once they roll out Abound.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> They key difference with enrollment is that single VOI owners and even some multi VOI Vistana owners will have higher Club Fees with Abound than they do in VSN. They will need to make sure the owners acknowledge that and that the fees are clear. I don't see it as part of the process of electing points for the first time but rather a separate step upfront like it is with Marriott today.


That's assuming the higher club fees are associated with enrolling in Abound. Multiple sources have said they're actually tied to anyone enrolled in VSN regardless of participation in Abound. Hopefully all will be revealed shortly.


----------



## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> Hopefully I will be revealed shortly.



I'm hoping not to be revealed, myself.  On the internet nobody knows you're really a dog on a keyboard....


----------



## DanCali

kozykritter said:


> I suspect those would pop up when you went to actually elect points for the first time and  "activated" your enrollment.




Enrolling will change your fee structure even if you never elect points. That cannot happen automatically without an owner consent.

By enrolling you also probably implicitly or explicitly agree to some inventory manipulations. For example, it's been discussed the MVC board that MVC can move weeks into the DC based on anticipated point elections. This can make it harder for an owner to book their home resort even if they never plan to use that week to elect points. So enrolling a week for the sake of enrolling may not be in your favor. That's another reason why consent may be required.


----------



## dsmrp

kozykritter said:


> That's assuming the higher club fees are associated with enrolling in Abound. Multiple sources have said they're actually tied to anyone enrolled in VSN regardless of participation in Abound. Hopefully all will be revealed shortly.


I got the impression too that the new club fee will apply to all enrolled in VSN; regardless of Abound eligibility.
And also to all MVC DC members.  This is part of the simplification I mentioned in another post.


----------



## KeithR

This is the offer in Princeville this week - we own a WKV resale.

1. Aug 1 deadline to retro
2. Retro with Flex purchase, minimum $10k. They pushed the 12 mos flex reservation but didn’t answer the lower flex inventory.  
3. 4050 club points for 148,100 SOs vs ~5k points for IV 2BR Hawaii so we’d need to buy points ($16.08) or elect Flex. Creates a strange point system as you’d likely bank some annually.
4. Can elect annually in October each year to use points or keep SOs

Quick to point out that SOs don’t change just flex to option to MVC. But we weren’t really offered an option just to retro our unit. Had to buy Flex, which goes away 8/1 and has $3250/yr fees.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> That's assuming the higher club fees are associated with enrolling in Abound. Multiple sources have said they're actually tied to anyone enrolled in VSN regardless of participation in Abound. Hopefully all will be revealed shortly.





dsmrp said:


> I got the impression too that the new club fee will apply to all enrolled in VSN; regardless of Abound eligibility.
> And also to all MVC DC members.  This is part of the simplification I mentioned in another post.


I don't foresee them unilaterally increasing the VSN fee for everyone.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> I don't foresee them unilaterally increasing the VSN fee for everyone.


Differing perspectives is what makes this chat board interesting.


----------



## jabberwocky

Wh


dioxide45 said:


> I don't foresee them unilaterally increasing the VSN fee for everyone.


Why not? It would likely net increase revenue and give them a sales angle - “you’re already paying the fees, why not unlock all of the benefits by upgrading to Abound?”  

It’s a lot easier to manage one set of fees for everyone rather Than multiple.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Why not? It would likely net increase revenue and give them a sales angle - “you’re already paying the fees, why not unlock all of the benefits by upgrading to Abound?”
> 
> It’s a lot easier to manage one set of fees for everyone rather Than multiple.


But the fee also eliminates all the other fees. It could be also be a net loss in the end or they could break even. They also have different sets of fees on the Marriott side, so they have no issues charging a la cart fees along side a consolidated fee. I am just saying that I don't see it happening. I may be right or I may be wrong. Just going by reading between the lines from their Investor Day webcast.


----------



## kozykritter

I think they will launch the combined higher club dues for VSN because it's in Marriott's best interest to align the administration of the programs as much as it can, to cut costs and also to avoid having to design custom IT processes as much as possible.


----------



## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> I don't foresee them unilaterally increasing the VSN fee for everyone.


So, you don't think this is legit?

Here's what Google Lens pulled out of the lower text.

2022 Club Dues Identified above as an example. Fees and Club Dues are subject to change including for 2023.

ffective for the 2023 Use Year, VSN Members will pay annual Club Dues rather than VSN Network Membership Fees and the usage fees identified above (other fees, such as interval International external exchange fees, will still apply). stana Owners who are not VSN Members will continue to be charged split housekeeping and cancellation fees.

ased on single VOI owned.

SN Members will pay Club Dues based on the Member's benefit level. Please note that all Owners will still have annual maintenance fee obligations, which are not included in the VSN Membership and usage fees or Club Dues displayed

22 Marriott Vacation Club International All Rights Reserved. Marriott Vacation Club International and the programs and products provided under the Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club brands of owned, developed or sold by Marriott International, Inc. Marriott Vacation Club International uses the Marriott marks under license from Marriott International, Inc. and its affiliates | VSE-22-031121-301-1175421


----------



## kozykritter

remowidget said:


> So, you don't think this is legit?
> 
> Here's what Google Lens pulled out of the lower text.
> 
> 2022 Club Dues Identified above as an example. Fees and Club Dues are subject to change including for 2023.
> 
> ffective for the 2023 Use Year, VSN Members will pay annual Club Dues rather than VSN Network Membership Fees and the usage fees identified above (other fees, such as interval International external exchange fees, will still apply). stana Owners who are not VSN Members will continue to be charged split housekeeping and cancellation fees.
> 
> ased on single VOI owned.
> 
> SN Members will pay Club Dues based on the Member's benefit level. Please note that all Owners will still have annual maintenance fee obligations, which are not included in the VSN Membership and usage fees or Club Dues displayed
> 
> 22 Marriott Vacation Club International All Rights Reserved. Marriott Vacation Club International and the programs and products provided under the Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club brands of owned, developed or sold by Marriott International, Inc. Marriott Vacation Club International uses the Marriott marks under license from Marriott International, Inc. and its affiliates | VSE-22-031121-301-1175421


Nice work! They will likely also apply the Marriott recognition levels across Vistana at the same time, again for the purpose of simplifying administration of the two programs in one IT system without having to create more customization. You'll notice on that VSN consolidated club fees paper that the recognition levels at the top of the right-hand column were matching Marriott levels, not the existing Vistana ones. They will have to come up with some type of criteria for assigning the Select level since there is no existing recognition level in Vistana between owner and 3*.


----------



## dioxide45

remowidget said:


> So, you don't think this is legit?
> 
> Here's what Google Lens pulled out of the lower text.
> 
> 2022 Club Dues Identified above as an example. Fees and Club Dues are subject to change including for 2023.
> 
> ffective for the 2023 Use Year, VSN Members will pay annual Club Dues rather than VSN Network Membership Fees and the usage fees identified above (other fees, such as interval International external exchange fees, will still apply). stana Owners who are not VSN Members will continue to be charged split housekeeping and cancellation fees.
> 
> ased on single VOI owned.
> 
> SN Members will pay Club Dues based on the Member's benefit level. Please note that all Owners will still have annual maintenance fee obligations, which are not included in the VSN Membership and usage fees or Club Dues displayed
> 
> 22 Marriott Vacation Club International All Rights Reserved. Marriott Vacation Club International and the programs and products provided under the Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club brands of owned, developed or sold by Marriott International, Inc. Marriott Vacation Club International uses the Marriott marks under license from Marriott International, Inc. and its affiliates | VSE-22-031121-301-1175421


Perhaps. But I ultimately beleive there will be a required enrollment or opt in process for Vistana owners and this structure will only apply to those that enroll. Perhaps they will just automatically enroll everyone? Some people though would see a near 40% increase in their VSN/Club Fee.


----------



## iowaguy09

remowidget said:


> So, you don't think this is legit?
> 
> Here's what Google Lens pulled out of the lower text.
> 
> 2022 Club Dues Identified above as an example. Fees and Club Dues are subject to change including for 2023.
> 
> ffective for the 2023 Use Year, VSN Members will pay annual Club Dues rather than VSN Network Membership Fees and the usage fees identified above (other fees, such as interval International external exchange fees, will still apply). stana Owners who are not VSN Members will continue to be charged split housekeeping and cancellation fees.
> 
> ased on single VOI owned.
> 
> SN Members will pay Club Dues based on the Member's benefit level. Please note that all Owners will still have annual maintenance fee obligations, which are not included in the VSN Membership and usage fees or Club Dues displayed
> 
> 22 Marriott Vacation Club International All Rights Reserved. Marriott Vacation Club International and the programs and products provided under the Marriott Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, and Westin Vacation Club brands of owned, developed or sold by Marriott International, Inc. Marriott Vacation Club International uses the Marriott marks under license from Marriott International, Inc. and its affiliates | VSE-22-031121-301-1175421


We were shown the same fee chart back in late June and told it would be implemented across the board on everyone.


----------



## dioxide45

The


kozykritter said:


> Nice work! They will likely also apply the Marriott recognition levels across Vistana at the same time, again for the purpose of simplifying administration of the two programs in one IT system without having to create more customization. You'll notice on that VSN consolidated club fees paper that the recognition levels at the top of the right-hand column were matching Marriott levels, not the existing Vistana ones. They will have to come up with some type of criteria for assigning the Select level since there is no existing recognition level in Vistana between owner and 3*.


The select owner level will be based on the current Marriott point levels based on number of Abound points owned/assigned; 4,000-6,999 Abound points. A Vistana owner can qualify for Abound Benefit levels in one of two ways, through their 3*, 4* 5* level or based on how many Abound points they have as they convert from their Vistana ownership. This could mean that some no star VSN members could end up with Select or higher benefit level.


----------



## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> They key difference with enrollment is that single VOI owners and even some multi VOI Vistana owners will have higher Club Fees with Abound than they do in VSN. They will need to make sure the owners acknowledge that and that the fees are clear. I don't see it as part of the process of electing points for the first time but rather a separate step upfront like it is with Marriott today.


Are you comparing Marriott weeks ownership with Vistana?

There is a fundamental difference in that Vistana owners already participate in a club, so they are simply changing the club. Marriott weeks ownerships never had a club, so forcing a club onto them is different than changing the rules / name / pricing of the Vistana club.


----------



## iowaguy09

dioxide45 said:


> The
> 
> The select owner level will be based on the current Marriott point levels based on number of Abound points owned/assigned; 4,000-6,999 Abound points. A Vistana owner can qualify for Abound Benefit levels in one of two ways, through their 3*, 4* 5* level or based on how many Abound points they have as they convert from their Vistana ownership. This could mean that some no star VSN members could end up with Select or higher benefit level.


That last sentence is also exactly something we were told at our update in late June.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> The
> 
> The select owner level will be based on the current Marriott point levels based on number of Abound points owned/assigned; 4,000-6,999 Abound points. A Vistana owner can qualify for Abound Benefit levels in one of two ways, through their 3*, 4* 5* level or based on how many Abound points they have as they convert from their Vistana ownership. This could mean that some no star VSN members could end up with Select or higher benefit level.


Not every ownership in the VSN will be eligible to enroll in Abound so I would think they will have to set some type of StarOption-based criteria for Select level within Vistana once those recognition levels are applied internally. They aren't going to exclude those ownerships entirely.


----------



## dioxide45

remowidget said:


> Are you comparing Marriott weeks ownership with Vistana?
> 
> There is a fundamental difference in that Vistana owners already participate in a club, so they are simply changing the club. Marriott weeks ownerships never had a club, so forcing a club onto them is different than changing the rules / name / pricing of the Vistana club.


Vistana weeks will be assigned point values in much the same way that Marriott weeks are. They are just using some silly 32.11234223 to 1 SO to Abound point ratio to make it easier for VSN owners to absorb since VSN owners know StarOptions.


kozykritter said:


> Not every ownership in the VSN will be eligible to enroll in Abound so I would think they will have to set some type of StarOption-based criteria for Select level within Vistana once those recognition levels are applied internally. They aren't going to exclude those ownerships entirely.


I doubt it will be StarOption based. VSN VOIs will have an Abound point value assigned to them. Say my SVV week gets 2,500 Abound points. That would put me at the Owner level. Perhaps along with my 1BR SVV week it would put me over 4,000 Abound points? Then I would be Select.

It could be possible for someone to be 4* in VSN but end up being Chairman's Club in Abound simply based on how many Abound points the Vistana ownership garners. The 3*, 4*, 5* to Executive, Presidential and Chairmans are likely just there for grandfathering/minimum purposes. It may be possible that someone who is 4* VSN and has Presidential but doesn't end up with 10,000 Abound points allocated to their Vistana ownerships.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> Vistana weeks will be assigned point values in much the same way that Marriott weeks are. They are just using some silly 32.11234223 to 1 SO to Abound point ratio to make it easier for VSN owners to absorb since VSN owners know StarOptions.
> 
> I doubt it will be StarOption based. VSN VOIs will have an Abound point value assigned to them. Say my SVV week gets 2,500 Abound points. That would put me at the Owner level. Perhaps along with my 1BR SVV week it would put me over 4,000 Abound points? Then I would be Select.
> 
> It could be possible for someone to be 4* in VSN but end up being Chairman's Club in Abound simply based on how many Abound points the Vistana ownership garners. The 3*, 4*, 5* to Executive, Presidential and Chairmans are likely just there for grandfathering/minimum purposes. It may be possible that someone who is 4* VSN and has Presidential but doesn't end up with 10,000 Abound points allocated to their Vistana ownerships.


We are just working from two different assumptions so we could go on and on like this. Let's agree to disagree on this. Your assumption is based upon conversion to Abound points being the criteria for assigning recognition levels within Vistana. I'm saying from my perspective the application of existing Marriott recognition levels in name only across Vistana will have nothing to do with Marriott itself. It will be based upon Vistana ownership only for functioning within the Vistana system. We already know that they will set 3*, 4*, 5* at Executive and higher. Select criteria and benefits within VSN will have to be set and anyone below that will be Owner. If a Vistana owner that is eligible decides to participate in Abound, then most likely those recognition levels will carry over to Abound and perhaps be enhanced by any MVC ownership that they have as well if a dual owner. Let's just hope they give us all the details soon so we can stop speculating and then start complaining about it for real


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> Wh
> 
> Why not? It would likely net increase revenue and give them a sales angle - “you’re already paying the fees, why not unlock all of the benefits by upgrading to Abound?”
> 
> It’s a lot easier to manage one set of fees for everyone rather Than multiple.


106 achieved! Thank you Marriott for dragging this hard launch out longer...and longer...and longer...


----------



## ocdb8r

kozykritter said:


> Not every ownership in the VSN will be eligible to enroll in Abound so I would think they will have to set some type of StarOption-based criteria for Select level within Vistana once those recognition levels are applied internally. They aren't going to exclude those ownerships entirely.





kozykritter said:


> We are just working from two different assumptions so we could go on and on like this. Let's agree to disagree on this. Your assumption is based upon conversion to Abound points being the criteria for assigning recognition levels within Vistana.


I don't think it's purely an "agree to disagree".  I'm not sure your assumptions are necessarily correct.  Based on what we've heard, any VSN week currently eligible for VSN status levels will automatically be eligible for "Abound" (i.e. those weeks purchased direct or otherwise "requalified").   If that's the case, no need to continue VSN specific status levels.  It doesn't even require someone to actually participate in (or agree to participate in) "Abound" as they could just as easily indicate your status is based on Abound "eligible" point levels (whether actually participating or not).  Further, while VSN is written into some of the HOA docs, the VSN elite levels are not.  Why continue offering a separate/distinct "VSN elite" program if a) you're given all current elites the option to continue to receive their existing (or new) benefits if they participate in Abound and b) there is nothing obligating you to continue to administer it?


----------



## VacationForever

ocdb8r said:


> I don't think it's purely an "agree to disagree".  I'm not sure your assumptions are necessarily correct.  Based on what we've heard, any VSN week currently eligible for VSN status levels will automatically be eligible for "Abound" (i.e. those weeks purchased direct or otherwise "requalified").   If that's the case, no need to continue VSN specific status levels.  It doesn't even require someone to actually participate in (or agree to participate in) "Abound" as they could just as easily indicate your status is based on Abound "eligible" point levels (whether actually participating or not).  Further, while VSN is written into some of the HOA docs, the VSN elite levels are not.  Why continue offering a separate/distinct "VSN elite" program if a) you're given all current elites the option to continue to receive their existing (or new) benefits if they participate in Abound and b) there is nothing obligating you to continue to administer it?


It has to do with resale mandatory ownership.  The elephant in the room is whether they are eligible for Abound or not.  Resale mandatory ownership does not currently qualify for elite status.  If they are not eligible for Abound, VSN booking system needs to continue to run in parallel. Mandatory weeks will continue to use VSN, as it written into the CC&R documents.  There is also no ROFR on WKV so they will continue to be available outside of Abound framework.


----------



## kozykritter

ocdb8r said:


> I don't think it's purely an "agree to disagree".  I'm not sure your assumptions are necessarily correct.  Based on what we've heard, any VSN week currently eligible for VSN status levels will automatically be eligible for "Abound" (i.e. those weeks purchased direct or otherwise "requalified").   If that's the case, no need to continue VSN specific status levels.  It doesn't even require someone to actually participate in (or agree to participate in) "Abound" as they could just as easily indicate your status is based on Abound "eligible" point levels (whether actually participating or not).  Further, while VSN is written into some of the HOA docs, the VSN elite levels are not.  Why continue offering a separate/distinct "VSN elite" program if a) you're given all current elites the option to continue to receive their existing (or new) benefits if they participate in Abound and b) there is nothing obligating you to continue to administer it?


You are entitled to see it differently. Vistana will continue to function as an independent system with an integration option with Abound for those that qualify. That means it will continue to use recognition levels within Vistana to apply Vistana-specific benefits to Vistana ownerships and the resulting transactions...extended banking deadlines, converting to Bonvoy every year, waitlists, etc. We've heard along the way that they have plans to make those Vistana levels match the name and number of Marriott recognition levels (presumably for ease of administration and when accessing Abound) but the criteria for hitting each level will be Vistana-specific. It has to be. Could you imagine as Dioxide suggested if Marriott came in and valued every Vistana ownership in MVC points (Abound eligible or not) based upon its own judgment of what is worth in Marriott's eyes and then set Vistana recognition levels based upon that? There would be buildings burnt to the ground! Imagine two owners each have a 2 Bed worth 148,100 StarOptions and Marriott came into Vistana and assigned one 8K point moving them up to elite and another 4K points. A revolution would begin, staring with pitchforks and torches. It makes sense for Marriott to do that for ownerships that are Abound eligible only for the purpose of knowing what they would be worth if they elected to participate in that program. But otherwise I can't see Vistana's recognition level being based upon anything but StarOptions at this juncture...perhaps down the line as more integration occurs that might change.


----------



## ErnieD

So many ways to see this. 2 months ago the Vistana HQ person who was trying to sell us Westin Flex quoted that the point categories would be the current MVC and that Westin owners would be “grandfathered” into MVC. Whatever that meant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> Not every ownership in the VSN will be eligible to enroll in Abound so I would think they will have to set some type of StarOption-based criteria for Select level within Vistana once those recognition levels are applied internally. They aren't going to exclude those ownerships entirely.


But what VSN ownerships won't be eligible to participate in Abound? If it is mandatory resales, those aren't eligible for Vistana * Elite levels anyway. Voluntary resales aren't eligible either.


----------



## sharr7

Re: elite levels - I don't think anyone can say for sure but based on speculation to this point it seems that they are planning one just one combined elite system. No one will lose/decrease status level because they will "map" your Vistana status to the Abound status. It sounds like they will then even consider if your total eligible "Abound points" hit a higher elite level and award you that level. 

I think there very well may be owners awarded elite status who didn't have enough SO (e.g. 148k owners) and it will be based on Marriott's valuation. The whole Abound system/conversion will be based on Marriott's valuations. Some at the same SO level will be awarded more Abound points for more desirable weeks. But no one will drop status that had it previously. 

It also seems this lends further support to the fact that mandatory resale will not be eligible for Abound conversion or elite levels in either system.


----------



## Eric B

sharr7 said:


> It also seems this lends further support to the fact that mandatory resale will not be eligible for Abound conversion or elite levels in either system.



Any idea if pre-2010 resale Marriott weeks that were enrolled for a decent fee count towards status there?  I won't lose any sleep over it if my mandatory Vistana resales can't be enrolled in Abound, but might go for it for a reasonable fee and the whole leaving them out entirely without a similar treatment to existing Marriott resales just seems like it could be a very self-serving statement from sales trying to make a commission.


----------



## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> Any idea if pre-2010 resale Marriott weeks that were enrolled for a decent fee count towards status there?  I won't lose any sleep over it if my mandatory Vistana resales can't be enrolled in Abound, but might go for it for a reasonable fee and the whole leaving them out entirely without a similar treatment to existing Marriott resales just seems like it could be a very self-serving statement from sales trying to make a commission.


Points allocated to pre-2010 Marriott resale weeks count toward MVC owner benefit levels. Just because they allowed Marriott resales to play in DC, it doesn't mean they will allow non qualified Vistana weeks to enroll in Abound.


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> Points allocated to pre-2010 Marriott resale weeks count toward MVC owner benefit levels. Just because they allowed Marriott resales to play in DC, it doesn't mean they will allow non qualified Vistana weeks to enroll in Abound.



Roger that - we'll see how things shake out when they get around to releasing the details.  I just don't think that inclusion or exclusion in MVC owner benefit levels says much of anything as a basis for concluding how they will really treat mandatory resale weeks.


----------



## ocdb8r

kozykritter said:


> You are entitled to see it differently. Vistana will continue to function as an independent system with an integration option with Abound for those that qualify. That means it will continue to use recognition levels within Vistana to apply Vistana-specific benefits to Vistana ownerships and the resulting transactions...extended banking deadlines, converting to Bonvoy every year, waitlists, etc. We've heard along the way that they have plans to make those Vistana levels match the name and number of Marriott recognition levels (presumably for ease of administration and when accessing Abound) but the criteria for hitting each level will be Vistana-specific. It has to be. Could you imagine as Dioxide suggested if Marriott came in and valued every Vistana ownership in MVC points (Abound eligible or not) based upon its own judgment of what is worth in Marriott's eyes and then set Vistana recognition levels based upon that? There would be buildings burnt to the ground! Imagine two owners each have a 2 Bed worth 148,100 StarOptions and Marriott came into Vistana and assigned one 8K point moving them up to elite and another 4K points. A revolution would begin, staring with pitchforks and torches. It makes sense for Marriott to do that for ownerships that are Abound eligible only for the purpose of knowing what they would be worth if they elected to participate in that program. But otherwise I can't see Vistana's recognition level being based upon anything but StarOptions at this juncture...perhaps down the line as more integration occurs that might change.


So what you believe will happen is they're going to rename the elite levels to complete match "Abound" but continue to maintain a completely separate set of criteria for what constitutes elite in Vistana?  I think not.  Why would Marriott maintain this level of complication for both themselves and for consumers to navigate?  Again, they are not legally required to maintain the Vistana Elite System at all...it's spelled out clearly that it and all benefits are completely at the discretion of Vistana.  I think it's much more likely that "Vistana" levels and their computations will go away.  Current members who's level might go down as a result of the "Abound" valuations will be "grandfathered" in to their existing level, but there will be no moving up unless you meet the "Abound" required calculations (it is possible they won't even be selling Vistana weeks or points at all moving forward....so why maintain Vistana elite staroptions requirements?).



VacationForever said:


> It has to do with resale mandatory ownership.  The elephant in the room is whether they are eligible for Abound or not.  Resale mandatory ownership does not currently qualify for elite status.  If they are not eligible for Abound, VSN booking system needs to continue to run in parallel. Mandatory weeks will continue to use VSN, as it written into the CC&R documents.  There is also no ROFR on WKV so they will continue to be available outside of Abound framework.


No disagreement that for the time being it seems VSN will continue to operate as it's written into the HOA documents of HOA mandatory resorts. I was only speaking of VSN Elite Levels (which are not written into the HOA docs). However, there is very little written as to what "VSN" has to look like.  What is stopping Marriott from modifying VSN so it looks identical to Abound? A rose by any other name is still a rose...  

In the beginning there is benefit to Marriott maintaining the two systems as somehow "distinct" as they can use it as a sales/upgrade technique.  However, over time, I can see the balance tipping to the point where they eventually move all on to what is effectively a platform identical to "Abound".


----------



## Eric B

ocdb8r said:


> What is stopping Marriott from modifying VSN so it looks identical to Abound?



The one thing I can think of is the existence of the mandatory VSN resale ownerships without ROFR.  I think it would be fabulous for the resale value of those if they subsumed VSN into Abound.  I'm not sure whether it would be all that beneficial to me due to the potential for devaluation of those weeks in the system, though as many have noted the rental value of some of them would kind of make Abound unnecessary.


----------



## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> The one thing I can think of is the existence of the mandatory VSN resale ownerships without ROFR.  I think it would be fabulous for the resale value of those if they subsumed VSN into Abound.  I'm not sure whether it would be all that beneficial to me due to the potential for devaluation of those weeks in the system, though as many have noted the rental value of some of them would kind of make Abound unnecessary.


I think also it is simply not wanting to take something away that already exists for owners. Sure, they may be able to legally do it, but they sold on that product for 25 years. Changing it now could produce challenges. In general when timeshare systems merge you don't see them take away programs that existed before. SBP owners can still reserve home resort 24 months in advance. Marriott owners can still reserve split weeks and Florida Club. Hilton is simply adding in a layer with HGV Max instead of a full integration. They leave old legacy systems in place for a reason, both to keep owners happy and also use it to sell the shiny new system...


----------



## Jayco29D

William Seward said:


> Can anybody provide some advise.
> 
> I received the below email about a virtual meeting last week. I chose Tuesday @ 4:30pm. I haven't heard back from them in reference to this meeting. I suspect as other zoom meeting I will need a zoom meeting invitation, which I haven't received (assuming it's zoom). I'm also taking it for granted having received the email on Wed 07/06 that the meeting I chose is for today.
> 
> Has anybody attended these virtual meeting in the past and how did they communicate the invitation.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Bill Seward
> 
> View attachment 59979



In this email, he says the corporate team is running a special campaign based on where/how they are deeded. I wonder if they will target owners of high value weeks like Maui to participate in the special promotion vs other owners such as Orlando will not be eligible for the special promotion?


----------



## ndang3

sharr7 said:


> Re: elite levels - I don't think anyone can say for sure but based on speculation to this point it seems that they are planning one just one combined elite system. No one will lose/decrease status level because they will "map" your Vistana status to the Abound status. It sounds like they will then even consider if your total eligible "Abound points" hit a higher elite level and award you that level.
> 
> I think there very well may be owners awarded elite status who didn't have enough SO (e.g. 148k owners) and it will be based on Marriott's valuation. The whole Abound system/conversion will be based on Marriott's valuations. Some at the same SO level will be awarded more Abound points for more desirable weeks. But no one will drop status that had it previously.
> 
> It also seems this lends further support to the fact that mandatory resale will not be eligible for Abound conversion or elite levels in either system.


We are legacy VSN and considering buying more VSN Westin flex options before the Abound program launches which I have been told is when flex will no longer be sold. We are still VSN 3 star elite not 4 star with this purchase but it will get us to above 10,000 Marriott vacation club points based on a conversion chart I haven’t even seen (just told verbally). Currently Presidential tier starts at or more than 10,000 club points and that is the reason we want to move forward, is to get to Presidential. My question is, does anyone know if the VSN tiers map directly to MVC tiers so 3>Executive, 4>Presidential regardless of the destination club points conversion? Or can one still be 3 star elite and still be Presidential if the DCP conversion is over 10,000.


----------



## dioxide45

ndang3 said:


> We are legacy VSN and considering buying more VSN Westin flex options before the Abound program launches which I have been told is when flex will no longer be sold. We are still VSN 3 star elite not 4 star with this purchase but it will get us to above 10,000 Marriott vacation club points based on a conversion chart I haven’t even seen (just told verbally). Currently Presidential tier starts at or more than 10,000 club points and that is the reason we want to move forward, is to get to Presidential. My question is, does anyone know if the VSN tiers map directly to MVC tiers so 3>Executive, 4>Presidential regardless of the destination club points conversion? Or can one still be 3 star elite and still be Presidential if the DCP conversion is over 10,000.


That is a good question. If this is what the sales reps are telling you, I would have them provide guaranty of Presidential in the contract. How many Abound points will you be short of 10,000 based on what you were told?


----------



## ndang3

dioxide45 said:


> That is a good question. If this is what the sales reps are telling you, I would have them provide guaranty of Presidential in the contract. How many Abound points will you be short of 10,000 based on what you were told?


~1500


----------



## dioxide45

ndang3 said:


> ~1500


How many Westin Flex do they want to sell you to get you there and what is the buy in cost? You could possibly buy 1,500 resale DC/Abound points after full integration for about $10K all in.


----------



## ndang3

Anything over 44,000 Staroptions which will get us a minimum of 1525 DC points. $18.5k inclusive of incentives and other discounts and closing costs. 2.5x SO purchased as bonus SO’s. Better to buy into the same legacy program is my opinion.


----------



## kozykritter

ndang3 said:


> We are legacy VSN and considering buying more VSN Westin flex options before the Abound program launches which I have been told is when flex will no longer be sold. We are still VSN 3 star elite not 4 star with this purchase but it will get us to above 10,000 Marriott vacation club points based on a conversion chart I haven’t even seen (just told verbally). Currently Presidential tier starts at or more than 10,000 club points and that is the reason we want to move forward, is to get to Presidential. My question is, does anyone know if the VSN tiers map directly to MVC tiers so 3>Executive, 4>Presidential regardless of the destination club points conversion? Or can one still be 3 star elite and still be Presidential if the DCP conversion is over 10,000.


Nobody knows anything for sure but it's pretty much been said from the beginning that 3* will map to Executive in MVC. What really hasn't been talked about is qualifying for levels based upon the MVC point value of your qualified Vistana ownership. It's possible if you get to the equivalent of 10K that you would get Presidential and it's also possible that they might raise the limit without grandfathering in Vistana converters. We just won't know until it actually launches so maybe as dioxide suggested try to get Presidential written into your purchase contract.

We also don't know for sure that they would let you combine your Vistana-based MVC point value with any MVC points you own/purchased to reach a certain recognition level. There's been conflicting statements given in various sales presentations reported here.


----------



## ErnieD

Will have to get the charts, but we were given the MVC vs Staroptions and they do not map over exactly. Basically, it showed that current 4 star elites had enough for Chairman (hence the earlier post saying the hq person saying Vistana would be grandfathering in elites to MVC). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ndang3

ErnieD said:


> Will have to get the charts, but we were given the MVC vs Staroptions and they do not map over exactly. Basically, it showed that current 4 star elites had enough for Chairman (hence the earlier post saying the hq person saying Vistana would be grandfathering in elites to MVC).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can you share the chart?


----------



## jabberwocky

ndang3 said:


> Can you share the chart?


I think it’s actually been posted in this thread somewhere. Which page I don’t know!


----------



## jabberwocky

kozykritter said:


> 106 achieved! Thank you Marriott for dragging this hard launch out longer...and longer...and longer...


I guess I’ll be buying people drinks next time we’re at the same resort.


----------



## remowidget

...


ndang3 said:


> Can you share the chart?


I'm not sure if this is the chart that is being referred, but it gives the levels based upon DC points.


----------



## TSKing

Does anyone know specifically the exchange “rate” for a Sheraton Flex week worth 81,000 Star Options. By “exchange rate” i mean how many MVC Destination Points is it worth?  I’ve had a recent Presentation and she gave me a lump sum value of all I had, but stupidly I didn’t ask for a breakdown!


----------



## VacationForever

TSKing said:


> Does anyone know specifically the exchange “rate” for a Sheraton Flex week worth 81,000 Star Options. By “exchange rate” i mean how many MVC Destination Points is it worth?  I’ve had a recent Presentation and she gave me a lump sum value of all I had, but stupidly I didn’t ask for a breakdown!











						CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
					

ok i will add to this thread in hopes of going over 100 before rollout. i own westin flex 126k SO developer purchase. as well as another 325k SO developer and requaled. 4*.  my westin flex gets me 12 month reservation window but it's only 126k. i would like a 12 month 148k ability. ( to reserve...




					tugbbs.com
				




34.21 Sheraton Flex to 1 DC point as reported in the link.


----------



## kozykritter

VacationForever said:


> CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
> 
> 
> ok i will add to this thread in hopes of going over 100 before rollout. i own westin flex 126k SO developer purchase. as well as another 325k SO developer and requaled. 4*.  my westin flex gets me 12 month reservation window but it's only 126k. i would like a 12 month 148k ability. ( to reserve...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 34.21 Sheraton Flex to 1 DC point as reported in the link.


I think it might be 34:23 instead... I have two Sheraton Flex contracts and one converted at 34.21 and the other 34.23. I think the discrepancy might be due to rounding cuz they don't do partial points but you get the idea.


----------



## BluePrelude

Maybe this was already mention in some of the 108 pages, but Abound is not just Vistana and Marriott Resorts, it also has Ritz-Carlton properties as well. And maybe, later on, Hyatt Residence Club too.
At the bottom of the Abound Promotional Map, in small letters is says 'Members of the Vistana Signature Network will first need to elect to receive Club Points to travel to Marriott Vacation Club resort or property'. So I guess, this is where the conversion from Star Options to Club Points starts?




So now, that is not really done without going to a dreaded Owner's Presentation to waste 2h, and getting us to sign something else AGAIN.
In the past, has anybody got to sign waivers without going to the presentations? Because, lets face it, they are full of it, and nothing really works as the sales person says it would.


----------



## kozykritter

BluePrelude said:


> Maybe this was already mention in some of the 108 pages, but Abound is not just Vistana and Marriott Resorts, it also has Ritz-Carlton properties as well. And maybe, later on, Hyatt Residence Club too.
> At the bottom of the Abound Promotional Map, in small letters is says 'Members of the Vistana Signature Network will first need to elect to receive Club Points to travel to Marriott Vacation Club resort or property'. So I guess, this is where the conversion from Star Options to Club Points starts?View attachment 60261View attachment 60262
> So now, that is not really done without going to a dreaded Owner's Presentation to waste 2h, and getting us to sign something else AGAIN.
> In the past, has anybody got to sign waivers without going to the presentations? Because, lets face it, they are full of it, and nothing really works as the sales person says it would.


More than likely the electing will happen online like it does for Marriott owners that elect to receive points for their deeded weeks. Just have to wait for Abound to launch and then it'll be go time.


----------



## dioxide45

BluePrelude said:


> Maybe this was already mention in some of the 108 pages, but Abound is not just Vistana and Marriott Resorts, it also has Ritz-Carlton properties as well. And maybe, later on, Hyatt Residence Club too.
> At the bottom of the Abound Promotional Map, in small letters is says 'Members of the Vistana Signature Network will first need to elect to receive Club Points to travel to Marriott Vacation Club resort or property'. So I guess, this is where the conversion from Star Options to Club Points starts?View attachment 60261View attachment 60262
> So now, that is not really done without going to a dreaded Owner's Presentation to waste 2h, and getting us to sign something else AGAIN.
> In the past, has anybody got to sign waivers without going to the presentations? Because, lets face it, they are full of it, and nothing really works as the sales person says it would.


Marriott owners were able to enroll in DC online when they rolled it out in 2010. I suspect the same thing for Vistana owners.


----------



## Mowogo

BluePrelude said:


> Maybe this was already mention in some of the 108 pages, but Abound is not just Vistana and Marriott Resorts, it also has Ritz-Carlton properties as well. And maybe, later on, Hyatt Residence Club too.


Unless Marriott hotels buys Hyatt hotels, Hyatt Residence Club will never be a part of Abound and will only be available as an Interval exchange.  The licensing agreement prevents anything closer than external exchange.  Any sales person that tells you anything other than Interval for Hyatt access is lying.


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## Negma

This is from June 2022 Investor Day . Marriot Vacations I believe does own Hyatt Residence Club. The plan as I understand it is to bring them all together under one banner (including Welk resorts), but first you have to do Marriott and Vistana first. Feel free to correct me if I have read it wrong. Note the second slide shows a legend that includes HVO and WELK


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## dioxide45

Negma said:


> This is from June 2022 Investor Day . Marriot Vacations I believe does own Hyatt Residence Club. The plan as I understand it is to bring them all together under one banner (including Welk resorts), but first you have to do Marriott and Vistana first. Feel free to correct me if I have read it wrong. Note the second slide shows a legend that includes HVO and WELK


From what they have stated in the past, there is no plan to bring HRC in under the same program. If you look at your first image, there is a line between HRC and St Regis that isn't there between any of the others. That line isn't by accident.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> From what they have stated in the past, there is no plan to bring HRC in under the same program. If you look at your first image, there is a line between HRC and St Regis that isn't there between any of the others. That line isn't by accident.


What I was told a couple of weeks ago by a MVC person that is not in direct sales is that they're looking at creating access to Hyatt through the HPP, which I believe is its points program. She didn't go into any details like if you could book directly with DPs or convert them into Hyatt points (similar to what Vistana is doing via Abound to get DPs). She did say this is not an immediate thing and that MVC had some things to work through to make it a possibility but also that this might be the easiest part of Hyatt to integrate. Take that all as you will.


----------



## mitchandjeanette

These are the conversion rates that I know about.  Is there a chart in this thread somewhere that I am missing?

Ownership InterestConversion RateSheraton Vistana Resort - Lake0.03179012Sheraton Vistana Villages - Bella0.0348642Westin Aventuras0.033333333Westin Kierland0.027346386Westin Flex0.03466667


----------



## dioxide45

mitchandjeanette said:


> These are the conversion rates that I know about.  Is there a chart in this thread somewhere that I am missing?
> 
> Ownership InterestConversion RateSheraton Vistana Resort - Lake0.03179012Sheraton Vistana Villages - Bella0.0348642Westin Aventuras0.033333333Westin Kierland0.027346386Westin Flex0.03466667


I started one here. I will add these to it.








						Vistana to Abound Point Conversion Tracker
					

I have started to create a conversion tracker to keep track of the amount of points allocaetd to each VOI. I know everything right now is still speculation or information gleaned from attending a sales presentation, but at some point I suspect we will get official numbers. For now we can start...




					tugbbs.com
				




The only issue is, for the weeks based items, what is the unit size and season? I don't think it is a flat out conversion rate across all unit sizes and seasons.


----------



## jabberwocky

StarOptions are an artifact of the VSN and don’t have anything to do with a formal conversion system. If you have an underlying deeded week your Abound points will be based on the season and location, not how many SO they get. For example, a WKV plat and WKORV week would get the same SO, but apparently have different reported Abound values.

The Flex systems are purely based on points, so they will have a conversion factor. There is really no other way to do it.

Salepeople probably are trying to simplify things and make it seem “fair” for owners used to the VSN system by giving artificial conversion values.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Salepeople probably are trying to simplify things and make it seem “fair” for owners used to the VSN system by giving artificial conversion values.


I agree. I think sales people are trying to convert from StarOptions because StarOptions is what most owners know. For a couple years after SPG went away I still heard the term Starpoints in a sales presentation. They said owners knew the term Starpoints. In the end they make things more confusing than they need to be.


----------



## samcar1

This is all so confusing as I don't know anything about deeded weeks really.  I am a 4* owner, have 380,000 options, but I believe one of my resale properties was factored into my 380,000.  That one particular week is separate and I can only book 8 months in advance except for my home resort.  I am looking forward to seeing how this will play out.  I am assuming i can exchange all into Marriott but if I keep the deeded week in flex, I would have to wait for that 8 month window.  Also, how are there so many different speculations on the exchange rates?  I wish they would announce already.


----------



## samcar1

one other thing.  Marriott only allows their owners to convert at 65%(or about)  of their points a year.   If our contracts state 100%, will that still hold?  I would think so as it states in a contract but who knows.


----------



## VacationForever

samcar1 said:


> This is all so confusing as I don't know anything about deeded weeks really.  I am a 4* owner, have 380,000 options, but I believe one of my resale properties was factored into my 380,000.  That one particular week is separate and I can only book 8 months in advance except for my home resort.  I am looking forward to seeing how this will play out.  I am assuming i can exchange all into Marriott but if I keep the deeded week in flex, I would have to wait for that 8 month window.  Also, how are there so many different speculations on the exchange rates?  I wish they would announce already.


What do you own?  There is not a standard point conversion for deeded weeks.  Conversion is based on the property, season and size.


----------



## dioxide45

samcar1 said:


> one other thing.  Marriott only allows their owners to convert at 65%(or about)  of their points a year.   If our contracts state 100%, will that still hold?  I would think so as it states in a contract but who knows.


For Bonvoy, you will still convert your VOI/week to Bonvoy points as you could today. The Marriott conversion of 65% you are seeing is for Trust point owners converting their Abound points to Bonvoy. Marriott week owners still have to convert their entire week to Bonvoy. They can't first convert to Abound then again to Bonvoy.


----------



## samcar1

VacationForever said:


> What do you own?  There is not a standard point conversion for deeded weeks.  Conversion is based on the property, season and size.





dioxide45 said:


> For Bonvoy, you will still convert your VOI/week to Bonvoy points as you could today. The Marriott conversion of 65% you are seeing is for Trust point owners converting their Abound points to Bonvoy. Marriott week owners still have to convert their entire week to Bonvoy. They can't first convert to Abound then again to Bonvoy.


I own 1 premium week in Orlando and the rest flex.


----------



## VacationForever

samcar1 said:


> I own 1 premium week in Orlando and the rest flex.


1 premium week will have its own conversion, based on resort, season, size, annual vs. biennial.  Different flex has its own conversion, i.e. Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex, Aventura Flex, Nanea and one in St. John.


----------



## samcar1

as I've looked at the Marriott properties and point system, if I'm looking at it correctly, with 380,000 options my conversion should be around 11k points.  That would be too good to be true on some of the properties, especially at 13months booking.  Can't be correct unless I have no idea what or how I own.


----------



## samcar1

VacationForever said:


> 1 premium week will have its own conversion, based on resort, season, size, annual vs. biennial.  Different flex has its own conversion, i.e. Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex, Aventura Flex, Nanea and one in St. John.


I'm all Sheraton


----------



## samcar1

samcar1 said:


> I'm all Sheraton


So what you are saying is what I was thinking.  Hope it's right.  No one in corporate will give me the time of day on this.  I've tried


----------



## dioxide45

samcar1 said:


> as I've looked at the Marriott properties and point system, if I'm looking at it correctly, with 380,000 options my conversion should be around 11k points.  That would be too good to be true on some of the properties, especially at 13months booking.  Can't be correct unless I have no idea what or how I own.


The number of Abound points you get will vary depending on what you own exactly. We don't have access to all of the conversions right now, but you are probably close to or above 10,000 Abound points. You can only book 13 months into MVC properties. We already know that Vistana resorts won't be available to book ahead of 12 months.


----------



## kozykritter

samcar1 said:


> So what you are saying is what I was thinking.  Hope it's right.  No one in corporate will give me the time of day on this.  I've tried


It's unlikely your resale will qualify for Abound points unless you paid to requalify it with Vistana. If the rest of your ownership is in qualified Sheraton flex options, finding the Marriott points conversion amount is easy by dividing the total of those options by 34.23.


----------



## remowidget

samcar1 said:


> So what you are saying is what I was thinking.  Hope it's right.  No one in corporate will give me the time of day on this.  I've tried


Corporate will not give you answers because the program isn't available yet.


----------



## lmnanea

Hi all had owners update today in Aruba. They said studio westin lagunaMar is pegged to 1525 DP /MVC points at the end of this month post merger completion. Anyone else received same info? Thx.


----------



## MICROZE

Westin Lagunamar has 2 x Seasons [PLATINUM+ & GOLD+].
Depending on season owned the #DCP accrued will change.

We received our estimate for a 2BR PLATINUM+ unit which accrues 4950-DCP/Year


----------



## samcar1

kozykritter said:


> It's unlikely your resale will qualify for Abound points unless you paid to requalify it with Vistana. If the rest of your ownership is in qualified Sheraton flex options, finding the Marriott points conversion amount is easy by dividing the total of those options by 34.23.


I finally got concrete answers today. My resale qualifies as I had rolled it in last time I upgraded.   Deciding if 11k points is enough or whether to upgrade one last time.  Tough decision.  Thanks all.


----------



## vacationtime1

I note that the conversion rates for Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex are relatively favorable for WF and SF owners opting into Abound, especially compared to the conversion rates at certain legacy resorts such as Kierland.  I am wondering if this is a tactic to get Flex owners to relinquish their points so Abound will have greater access to the inventory in the Flex trusts.  It would be a quick way to give Abound access to some prime weeks at many resorts enabling them to show inventory.

The downside for existing WF and SF owners is that the inventory moved from these trusts into Abound will not be available to Flex owners who do not opt for DC points.  Flex trust points owners may find their trusts' inventory of prime weeks to be diminished.

I know the argument that fewer owners chasing fewer weeks has no effect, but in this case, because these trusts have many owners but few prime weeks (winter ski weeks, etc.) there will be almost as many owners chasing a diminished number of prime weeks.  We shall see.


----------



## VacationForever

Deleted.  Looking at wrong conversion table.


----------



## samcar1

I ended up buying more Westin which gives me 13K and change marriott DC points.  Made sense to me.  I feel I can work the system better for myself.  Hopefully I did the right thing.  Working with Fletch in corporate and I really trust him.  Actually, he is the only one i trust in the company.  The DC points are going to go thru the roof.  Even if the conversion is a little less, I feel I can get much better properties that I can use more often as I'm in Florida.  

Good luck all.  Hope I made the right decision but I feel I have total clarity as I'm all flex.


----------



## samcar1

samcar1 said:


> I ended up buying more Westin which gives me 13K and change marriott DC points.  Made sense to me.  I feel I can work the system better for myself.  Hopefully I did the right thing.  Working with Fletch in corporate and I really trust him.  Actually, he is the only one i trust in the company.  The DC points are going to go thru the roof.  Even if the conversion is a little less, I feel I can get much better properties that I can use more often as I'm in Florida.
> 
> Good luck all.  Hope I made the right decision but I feel I have total clarity as I'm all flex.


I was also told that Westin is basically sold out at this point and they will not be issuing any more.


----------



## rickandcindy23

samcar1 said:


> I ended up buying more Westin which gives me 13K and change marriott DC points.  Made sense to me.  I feel I can work the system better for myself.  Hopefully I did the right thing.  Working with Fletch in corporate and I really trust him.  Actually, he is the only one i trust in the company.  The DC points are going to go thru the roof.  Even if the conversion is a little less, I feel I can get much better properties that I can use more often as I'm in Florida.
> 
> Good luck all.  Hope I made the right decision but I feel I have total clarity as I'm all flex.


Another vote for Fletch.  He is good!


----------



## samcar1

rickandcindy23 said:


> Another vote for Fletch.  He is good!


The only straight shooter


----------



## samcar1

samcar1 said:


> The only straight shooter


Hey Rick. Let’s catch up.


----------



## samcar1

samcar1 said:


> Hey Rick. Let’s catch up.


Sorry. I thought you were someone else.


----------



## ndang3

Agree about Jack.


----------



## dcornell

samcar1 said:


> I was also told that Westin is basically sold out at this point and they will not be issuing any more.


At our presentation at WDW a few weeks ago, they said once the Westin Flex inventory is gone ("could happen as soon as today...."), they would only be selling the combined Abound product.  It's interesting though.... I don't recall any construction happening at WDW while we were there--first time in years I didn't see another building going up.  Are there any other Vistana properties that are expanding?  Perhaps the inventory is decreasing.....


----------



## samcar1

dcornell said:


> At our presentation at WDW a few weeks ago, they said once the Westin Flex inventory is gone ("could happen as soon as today...."), they would only be selling the combined Abound product.  It's interesting though.... I don't recall any construction happening at WDW while we were there--first time in years I didn't see another building going up.  Are there any other Vistana properties that are expanding?  Perhaps the inventory is decreasing.....


I would love to know that too.  So many of these properties are ratty.  They need to put money into their existing properties.  Jensen beach in Florida is shameful.  But, what they did with Steamboat is fabulous.


----------



## dioxide45

dcornell said:


> At our presentation at WDW a few weeks ago, they said once the Westin Flex inventory is gone ("could happen as soon as today...."), they would only be selling the combined Abound product.  It's interesting though.... I don't recall any construction happening at WDW while we were there--first time in years I didn't see another building going up.  Are there any other Vistana properties that are expanding?  Perhaps the inventory is decreasing.....


I am not aware of any. They are still converting Westin Cancun Resort & Spa and I suspect at some point that will be added to Aventuras. They will probably continue to sell Aventuras as a separate product that can elect Abound points. Several resorts on the Vistana and Marriott side are incomplete. Sheraton Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach still has unbuilt buildings as does WDW that you mention. Marriott Vacations Worldwide sold off the undeveloped land at Sheraton Vistana Villages


----------



## rickandcindy23

dioxide45 said:


> I am not aware of any. They are still converting Westin Cancun Resort & Spa and I suspect at some point that will be added to Aventuras. They will probably continue to sell Aventuras as a separate product that can elect Abound points. Several resorts on the Vistana and Marriott side are incomplete. Sheraton Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach still has unbuilt buildings as does WDW that you mention. Marriott Vacations Worldwide sold off the undeveloped land at Sheraton Vistana Villages


And what a surprise to drive into Marriott's Grande Vista and see hotels so close to the entrance of the resort, including a crappy Wyndham hotel with a very bright-lit sign. (I don't like Wyndham hotels, in general.)


----------



## samcar1

rickandcindy23 said:


> And what a surprise to drive into Marriott's Grande Vista and see hotels so close to the entrance of the resort, including a crappy Wyndham hotel with a very bright-lit sign. (I don't like Wyndham hotels, in general.)


Hate Wyndham.  LOL. I generally do all my homework before booking.  The cruises look very interesting.  Especially the higher level ones but we can't really see them yet and they will take a lot of DC points and manipulation.


----------



## cubigbird

dioxide45 said:


> I am not aware of any. They are still converting Westin Cancun Resort & Spa and I suspect at some point that will be added to Aventuras. They will probably continue to sell Aventuras as a separate product that can elect Abound points. Several resorts on the Vistana and Marriott side are incomplete. Sheraton Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach still has unbuilt buildings as does WDW that you mention. Marriott Vacations Worldwide sold off the undeveloped land at Sheraton Vistana Villages


Westin Puerto Vallarta was also supposed to be converted and 100% added to Aventuras like Cabo was, but it doesn’t look like that will ever happen.


----------



## dioxide45

samcar1 said:


> I would love to know that too.  So many of these properties are ratty.  They need to put money into their existing properties.  Jensen beach in Florida is shameful.  But, what they did with Steamboat is fabulous.


Not sure what the issue is with Vistana Beach Club? Unfortunately any upgrades or improvements to existing properties would need to come from the owners (HOAs). Why would Vistana or Marriott invest money into them when they are mostly sold out? If owners want improvements, they would need to pay for them. As for Vistana Beach Club. The resort is older (I think it was perhaps Vistana's second property). What it lacks in amenities it makes up for in location. Not a location in the hustle and bustle of a big beach town, but for being right on top of the quiet beach it sits on. The rooms have also all been fairly recently renovated.


----------



## dioxide45

cubigbird said:


> Westin Puerto Vallarta was also supposed to be converted and 100% added to Aventuras like Cabo was, but it doesn’t look like that will ever happen.


Yeah, they apparently have it for sale. That property probably won't happen.


----------



## cubigbird

dioxide45 said:


> Yeah, they apparently have it for sale. That property probably won't happen.


You would think they would want to convert it.  More inventory means more points for the developer to sell.  Aventuras could be a really awesome package with some awsome inventory if both the Westins in Cancún and Puerto Vallarta actually completed.


----------



## samcar1

dioxide45 said:


> Not sure what the issue is with Vistana Beach Club? Unfortunately any upgrades or improvements to existing properties would need to come from the owners (HOAs). Why would Vistana or Marriott invest money into them when they are mostly sold out? If owners want improvements, they would need to pay for them. As for Vistana Beach Club. The resort is older (I think it was perhaps Vistana's second property). What it lacks in amenities it makes up for in location. Not a location in the hustle and bustle of a big beach town, but for being right on top of the quiet beach it sits on. The rooms have also all been fairly recently renovated.


i was there last year and couldn't even get a water.  The pool was in the parking lot.  Marriott Singer Island will be beautiful to stay in.  I've been there before.


----------



## dioxide45

samcar1 said:


> i was there last year and couldn't even get a water.  The pool was in the parking lot.  Marriott Singer Island will be beautiful to stay in.  I've been there before.


Yeah, no onsite food & beverage. They might have had a vending machine at some point in time. The Singer Island Marriotts are great, but Jensen Beach is "Old Florida". There isn't much else they can do to change the resort as it is sitting on a small footprint. It has its charm but I understand it isn't for everyone.


----------



## jabberwocky

samcar1 said:


> I would love to know that too.  So many of these properties are ratty.  They need to put money into their existing properties.  Jensen beach in Florida is shameful.  But, what they did with Steamboat is fabulous.


We are at Steamboat now - and I agree the unit renovations have turned out really well. Construction outside does put a damper on things; however. 

Incidentally- we did an owner update earlier this week (we would not have gone but they upped the offer to $300 cash). Nothing really new. The launch date for Abound will “definitely be before Labor Day”, but could happen within the next week.

I liked our first salesperson (Jim) and if I had something to retro in I probably would have bought from him. Second guy was a jerk and was trying to convince us that Bonvoy points were such a great thing and lifetime titanium status was something we needed. Wasn’t listening to us at all and quickly put a damper on things.


----------



## dioxide45

I have had two different sales people from two different sales sites indicate July 28th is the day. Though they aren't supposed to give a date


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> We are at Steamboat now - and I agree the unit renovations have turned out really well. Construction outside does put a damper on things; however.
> 
> Incidentally- we did an owner update earlier this week (we would not have gone but they upped the offer to $300 cash). Nothing really new. The launch date for Abound will “definitely be before Labor Day”, but could happen within the next week.
> 
> I liked our first salesperson (Jim) and if I had something to retro in I probably would have bought from him. Second guy was a jerk and was trying to convince us that Bonvoy points were such a great thing and lifetime titanium status was something we needed. Wasn’t listening to us at all and quickly put a damper on things.


I had the exact same experience there. Jim is a great guy and honest. He looked at my portfolio and told me I didn't need to buy a thing given how I planned to travel. I absolutely would have bought it from him if I needed more. And then Mike came in and tried to sell me $27K worth of Westin Flex "just because". When I declined, he became a total A-hole which according to a source of mine at the property is a pattern of his when someone doesn't buy. Ruined everything! I slated him on the post presentation survey.


----------



## VacationForever

The last owner update that we attended was at Westin Kierland after Thanksgiving.  He was quite a good salesperson as well.  He saw what we owned with Vistana and told us that corporate told the salespeople to upsell every person going through to get to at least 4 star elite, if not, 5 star.  We told him what we also own at MVC and he said there was no reason for us to buy because we should be Chairman's Club after the merger.  He said of course, unless you really wanted to buy some more.  We parted on a good note.


----------



## samcar1

kozykritter said:


> I had the exact same experience there. Jim is a great guy and honest. He looked at my portfolio and told me I didn't need to buy a thing given how I planned to travel. I absolutely would have bought it from him if I needed more. And then Mike came in and tried to sell me $27K worth of Westin Flex "just because". When I declined, he became a total A-hole which according to a source of mine at the property is a pattern of his when someone doesn't buy. Ruined everything! I slated him on the post presentation survey.


Always go to the presentations, get your freebees and call Jack Fletcher.  He knows exactly whats going on.  He's in corporate, NOT pushy and is in the KNOW.  Everyone else lies.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

dioxide45 said:


> I have had two different sales people from two different sales sites indicate July 28th is the day. Though they aren't supposed to give a date


That is the date we were given. If anyone is thinking of getting reservations done online it might be best to plan to do them before the 28th.


----------



## chinh9

I was also told the 28th so it seems to be the date...or hopeful date. But once it does go live - are they going to send out a crap ton of documents or brochures and what not to everyone? Or will we just need to figure it out on our own?


----------



## remowidget

chinh9 said:


> I was also told the 28th so it seems to be the date...or hopeful date. But once it does go live - are they going to send out a crap ton of documents or brochures and what not to everyone? Or will we just need to figure it out on our own?


You should read everything you can find, but you are already in a great place to find out info.


----------



## MICROZE

VacationForever said:


> The last owner update that we attended was at Westin Kierland after Thanksgiving.  He was quite a good salesperson as well.  He saw what we owned with Vistana and told us that corporate told the salespeople to upsell every person going through to get to at least 4 star elite, if not, 5 star.  We told him what we also own at MVC and he said there was no reason for us to buy because we should be Chairman's Club after the merger.  He said of course, unless you really wanted to buy some more.  We parted on a good note.


Are you already Chairman's Club based on what your Vistana-Ownership maps to in DCP-Points?
OR
Are you expecting Marriott to combine your Vistana-Ownership DP-Equivalent + Marriott-DCP-Points?

I am very interested as different people have given different guidance.
Based on what I heard, I am unsure whether Marriott will create a Combined-Status [e.g. Marriott-DCP: 5000 + Vistana-DCP: 10000 = Chairmans-Club].


----------



## VacationForever

MICROZE said:


> Are you already Chairman's Club based on what your Vistana-Ownership maps to in DCP-Points?
> OR
> Are you expecting Marriott to combine your Vistana-Ownership DP-Equivalent + Marriott-DCP-Points?
> 
> I am very interested as different people have given different guidance.
> Based on what I heard, I am unsure whether Marriott will create a Combined-Status [e.g. Marriott-DCP: 5000 + Vistana-DCP: 10000 = Chairmans-Club].


His theory is based on combined.


----------



## dwreimer44

I have two questions for the group:
1. Had my owners update at Kierland today.  I guess my 4* ownership is going to convert in at 14,275 MVC which puts me 275 points short of Chairman level.  Is it worth $12,000 to upgrade?  Is there any real difference between the two that would make this worthwhile?
2. I heard that when the conversion is completed they are going to grant lifetime Titanium status to Presidential and Chairman level owners.  Has anyone else confirmed this?  Is this only an incentive for buyers who are upgrading or is this for all owners?


----------



## ErnieD

On point #2, I was told that as long as you have the properties you will have that Bonvoy status. Clarified my same question when I asked. Of course, this comes from the sales manager so consider the source.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## samcar1

You will have that status.  I will be titanium.


----------



## kozykritter

dwreimer44 said:


> I have two questions for the group:
> 1. Had my owners update at Kierland today.  I guess my 4* ownership is going to convert in at 14,275 MVC which puts me 275 points short of Chairman level.  Is it worth $12,000 to upgrade?  Is there any real difference between the two that would make this worthwhile?
> 2. I heard that when the conversion is completed they are going to grant lifetime Titanium status to Presidential and Chairman level owners.  Has anyone else confirmed this?  Is this only an incentive for buyers who are upgrading or is this for all owners?


Bonvoy status benefits through ownership are tied to your annual ownership elite level, not the individual involved. They are not for the lifetime of the owner and are subject to being changed by Vistana/MVC at any time. Currently those two elite levels each award Titanium status yearly to the primary owner on the account. No one here has mentioned being told about a special lifetime status incentive. If your ownership elite level drops lower in a given year, you will receive the Bonvoy status associated with the lower level for that year. Also if your amount of ownership drops at all after being grandfathered, you will permanently lose the grandfathered privilege and have to qualify on points like everyone else.


----------



## kozykritter

dwreimer44 said:


> I have two questions for the group:
> 1. Had my owners update at Kierland today.  I guess my 4* ownership is going to convert in at 14,275 MVC which puts me 275 points short of Chairman level.  Is it worth $12,000 to upgrade?  Is there any real difference between the two that would make this worthwhile?
> 2. I heard that when the conversion is completed they are going to grant lifetime Titanium status to Presidential and Chairman level owners.  Has anyone else confirmed this?  Is this only an incentive for buyers who are upgrading or is this for all owners?


While it seems fairly certain that 4* will map to Presidential regardless of the number of converted points involved, there has been no information to confirm that a Vistana owner who's ownership converts to 15,000+ DP will be granted Chairman status after the hard launch. It may happen, it may not so take that into account when making a purchase. It's possible that MVC could be raising the number of points needed for Chairman and not grandfathering in Vistana owners based on points since they were not part of the MVC recognition program before the hard launch. Again we have no definite information one way or another right now. I wonder if getting Vistana to write in Chairman status to your purchase contract would have any effect with MVC once the hard launch happens.

5* will reportedly be mapped to Chairman regardless of a number of converted points involved. How far are you away from that level of Vistana ownership?


----------



## GregT

dwreimer44 said:


> I have two questions for the group:
> 1. Had my owners update at Kierland today.  I guess my 4* ownership is going to convert in at 14,275 MVC which puts me 275 points short of Chairman level.  Is it worth $12,000 to upgrade?  Is there any real difference between the two that would make this worthwhile?
> 2. I heard that when the conversion is completed they are going to grant lifetime Titanium status to Presidential and Chairman level owners.  Has anyone else confirmed this?  Is this only an incentive for buyers who are upgrading or is this for all owners?


For me, the most important ability at the higher levels is the ability to reserve a single night's reservation 13 months out, and you will have that with Presidential.  I believe the primary difference between President and Chairman is the ability to bank points for two years (as Chairman) versus 18 months (as Presidential) and I do not think that is significant enough to pay $12K.

I have not heard the bit about Titanium (I think that is what I have).

Best,

Greg


----------



## jabberwocky

kozykritter said:


> Bonvoy status benefits through ownership are tied to your annual ownership elite level, not the individual involved. They are not for the lifetime of the owner and are subject to being changed by Vistana/MVC at any time. Currently those two elite levels each award Titanium status yearly to the primary owner on the account. No one here has mentioned being told about a special lifetime status incentive. If your ownership elite level drops lower in a given year, you will receive the Bonvoy status associated with the lower level for that year. Also if your amount of ownership drops at all after being grandfathered, you will permanently lose the grandfathered privilege and have to qualify on points like everyone else.


Some of the Bonvoy levels do have a "lifetime" status, which depends upon the number of years you have had at least that status plus the number of nights you stayed.  Platinum, Silver, and Gold all can be obtained this way, and your ownership nights/years also count towards this (there are some Titanium lifetime members - but this was obtained when they merger the SPG and Marriott programs).

For instance, with about five more years and 140 nights I should hit Platinum for life - so even if I sold off all of my Vistana ownerships at that point, I would still retain that status for the remainder of my life (I'm currently titanium based on stays though).  We should get Platinum status with our 3* ownership as well, so once I get platinum for life we will likely switch so that my spouse becomes the primary on our Vistana ownership and we would both be Platinum.

Personally, I have not noticed much difference between platinum and titanium, upgrades are few and far between, and you feel like you have to beg for a free breakfast.  The only real difference is more bonus points.  It would not be enough to make me buy TS points just to get to the 4* elite/Presidential level.


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> Some of the Bonvoy levels do have a "lifetime" status, which depends upon the number of years you have had at least that status plus the number of nights you stayed.  Platinum, Silver, and Gold all can be obtained this way, and your ownership nights/years also count towards this (there are some Titanium lifetime members - but this was obtained when they merger the SPG and Marriott programs).
> 
> For instance, with about five more years and 140 nights I should hit Platinum for life - so even if I sold off all of my Vistana ownerships at that point, I would still retain that status for the remainder of my life (I'm currently titanium based on stays though).  We should get Platinum status with our 3* ownership as well, so once I get platinum for life we will likely switch so that my spouse becomes the primary on our Vistana ownership and we would both be Platinum.
> 
> Personally, I have not noticed much difference between platinum and titanium, upgrades are few and far between, and you feel like you have to beg for a free breakfast.  The only real difference is more bonus points.  It would not be enough to make me buy TS points just to get to the 4* elite/Presidential level.


Yes, agreed, the status (and nights) you get yearly from Vistana/MVC ownership can contribute to you earning lifetime status in the Bonvoy program in that they require a certain number of years at a status level and nights stayed as you mentioned. Just wanted to be clear to the OP that the timeshare programs themselves don't grant any lifetime Bonvoy status.

I've been Titanium for a few years now and I would say on occasion I could see where it benefited me in the way I was treated. I've received a few unsolicited suite upgrades and when there have been problems with my room or my stay, many times once they know I am Titanium I see a sense of urgency being added to their actions to try and solve things quickly and in a way that makes me happy including reassigning a room from someone that hasn't checked in yet. On flip side I've seen in similar situations it hasn't made a bit of difference! Personally I'm happy to have it but don't go out of my way to earn it back or spend any extra $ to do so.


----------



## chemteach

I am so late to the party...  I've been travelling since June 13 and just arrived at a Marriott and went to an update.  From what I've been reading, it looks like the Vistana ownerships purchased from the developer and/or brought in via a purchase will get automatic entry into the new joined system.  Wow!  I was told I will have the Select level and they tried to upsell me to get to the Presidential level.  At Select, he said I will have platinum elite status in Marriott, which is great for me!  I don't need titanium status.  I was wondering if there is a thread somewhere that shows the mapping of Vistana properties to Marriott vacation Club Points.  Gotta love TUG!  So much information here.    Waiting 4 days now, hoping it all happens on 7/28.  The person I spoke with said it would be a few weeks from now.  Hoping he was wrong...


----------



## dioxide45

chemteach said:


> I was wondering if there is a thread somewhere that shows the mapping of Vistana properties to Marriott vacation Club Points.


Is this what you are looking for? So far it is all we have.









						Vistana to Abound Point Conversion Tracker
					

I have started to create a conversion tracker to keep track of the amount of points allocaetd to each VOI. I know everything right now is still speculation or information gleaned from attending a sales presentation, but at some point I suspect we will get official numbers. For now we can start...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## chemteach

dioxide45 said:


> Is this what you are looking for? So far it is all we have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vistana to Abound Point Conversion Tracker
> 
> 
> I have started to create a conversion tracker to keep track of the amount of points allocaetd to each VOI. I know everything right now is still speculation or information gleaned from attending a sales presentation, but at some point I suspect we will get official numbers. For now we can start...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com


Thank you!!  This is exactly what I was looking for.


----------



## William Seward

The "Vistana_DC_ConversionRates" document is an interesting graph. Is their a graph with all 90 combined Resorts, including the resort codes.


----------



## samcar1

GregT said:


> For me, the most important ability at the higher levels is the ability to reserve a single night's reservation 13 months out, and you will have that with Presidential.  I believe the primary difference between President and Chairman is the ability to bank points for two years (as Chairman) versus 18 months (as Presidential) and I do not think that is significant enough to pay $12K.
> 
> I have not heard the bit about Titanium (I think that is what I have).
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


I totally agree with that.


----------



## dioxide45

William Seward said:


> The "Vistana_DC_ConversionRates" document is an interesting graph. Is their a graph with all 90 combined Resorts, including the resort codes.


Given that this is all user reported data, that is asking a lot. Marriott hasn’t published official point allocations.

A similar spreadsheet for Marriott properties is available in the Marriott forum.


----------



## ErnieD

StarOptions to Club Points

Attached is what I got from corporate as they said this is what the new system (Abound) will convert to.


----------



## samcar1

At least the time is coming in the next week in which we should know.  I do know we have to make a decision by October as to how many option we want to transfer to points for this year.  Next year at least on 4*, we have till October.  they will be in 20k increments and can add to them.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I am very unclear if resale mandatory SO's are worth anything in DC, according to Marriott. 

Has someone found out?  On TUG we always say to buy resale and not developer.  So of course that is what I do.


----------



## jabberwocky

rickandcindy23 said:


> I am very unclear resale mandatory SO's are worth according to Marriott.
> 
> Has someone found out?  On TUG we always say to buy resale and not developer.  So of course that is what I do.


StarOptions only have value in VSN. Abound points will be allocated based on the underlying deed. For mandatory properties it hasn’t been made clear whether they will participate in Abound if they are not requalified resales.

I’ve been told our mandatory resale (unauthorized) will be by two separate sales reps at different resorts - and our customer sheet shows our total point value as including our resale. Others have been told differently. Only time will tell.


----------



## pchung6

jabberwocky said:


> StarOptions only have value in VSN. Abound points will be allocated based on the underlying deed. For mandatory properties it hasn’t been made clear whether they will participate in Abound if they are not requalified resales.
> 
> I’ve been told our mandatory resale (unauthorized) will be by two separate sales reps at different resorts - and our customer sheet shows our total point value as including our resale. Others have been told differently. Only time will tell.


I attended sales meeting earlier this week at Palm Deserts. The sales rep told us we have to buy in order to participate Abound. We showed no interests and told the both sales reps we won't participate Marriott no matter what you gonna say. Then I start swiping my phone to show disrespect purposely. We were kicked out in 20 minutes, which we gladly accepted with 25k pts.


----------



## wjarcher

We just did a tour at Nanea. We own quite a few resale weeks, so the salesman's strategy was to ask us to buy to requal our resale weeks. The overall sales pitch is that Marriott points are inferior and it is the last time to buy Vistana to get to stay at Westin Maui resorts in the future. One thing I did learn is that they are still selling deeded weeks at WKOVR north and south in addition to the Westin flex. These weeks are very expensive though.

We did not buy because we are in the middle of a Marriott Aruba week developer purchase to enroll our Marriott resale weeks (and potentially Vistana weeks after the merge gets into effect).

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## chemteach

I'm a bit confused.  The salesperson I met this morning at a Marriott tour told me that all Vistana weeks will automatically be part of the new Abound program as Marriott Vacation Club Points - that I didn't have to purchase anything additional to have the ability to convert any developer purchased Vistana weeks into Marriott Vacation Club Points any time I wanted to (not that I would do that anyway - the conversion rate for my sheraton dessert oasis platinum week is pretty worthless in the "MVCP" system.  The main benefit I would get is having enough points with my other weeks to have Select status and therefore, platinum bonvoy status.  (At lease this is what the salesperson communicated to me - that at my current ownership, I will have an ownership that would be equivalent to around 6300 points in the "MVCP" system, and so would give me platinum tier status in Marriott.)

Is it other people's understanding that units purchased from the developer that are in the Vistana system will automatically be enrolled in the new Abound (the salesman was calling it Marriott Vacation Club Points) system when the rollout occurs in (hopefully) the next few days or weeks?  Of course, we'll know soon enough.  Interestingly, when I logged into my Vistana account today, I saw a screen message that there is a new Abound system coming soon with details to follow shortly.


----------



## chemteach

Separately - within Vistana StarOptions, you can only book resorts at 8 months out for outside your home resort.  However, the Abound/MVCP system shows that you can reserve at 13 months out.  The salesperson I spoke with said that people using Marriott Vacation Club Points would not be allowed to reserve Vistana units beyond 12 months out because that is how the Vistana units were originally set up.  BUT...  it seems that people will be able to reserve the Vistana weeks at 12 months out and not have to wait until the 8 month mark if using Marriott Vacation Club Points to reserve units.  If true, that alone makes the staroptions system almost useless for high demand weeks because they would all be gone by the 8 month mark.

Has anyone heard how the Marriott Vacation Club Point system is supposed to work for reserving Vistana units?  (Of course, no one will know for sure until the system is up and running...)  It will be interesting to see if people with many points in the new Abound system will be able to reserve WKORV at 12 months out.  That would be unfortunate.


----------



## jabberwocky

chemteach said:


> Separately - within Vistana StarOptions, you can only book resorts at 8 months out for outside your home resort.  However, the Abound/MVCP system shows that you can reserve at 13 months out.  The salesperson I spoke with said that people using Marriott Vacation Club Points would not be allowed to reserve Vistana units beyond 12 months out because that is how the Vistana units were originally set up.  BUT...  it seems that people will be able to reserve the Vistana weeks at 12 months out and not have to wait until the 8 month mark if using Marriott Vacation Club Points to reserve units.  If true, that alone makes the staroptions system almost useless for high demand weeks because they would all be gone by the 8 month mark.
> 
> Has anyone heard how the Marriott Vacation Club Point system is supposed to work for reserving Vistana units?  (Of course, no one will know for sure until the system is up and running...)  It will be interesting to see if people with many points in the new Abound system will be able to reserve WKORV at 12 months out.  That would be unfortunate.


I think this has been discussed once or twice in the prior 110 pages of this thread.  

Consensus seems to be that only weeks converted into Abound points will be able to be booked within MVC. Weeks that are not converted that year remain within VSN and can be booked at the 8 month mark.


----------



## remowidget

chemteach said:


> Separately - within Vistana StarOptions, you can only book resorts at 8 months out for outside your home resort.  However, the Abound/MVCP system shows that you can reserve at 13 months out..   It will be interesting to see if people with many points in the new Abound system will be able to reserve WKORV at 12 months out.  That would be unfortunate.


There are different pools of Vistana ownership. Currently there are Weeks Owners, Points Owners, and Developer Ownership. Abound points will not be able to reserve from the Weeks Ownership Pool at 12 months. Only ownership present in the Abound pool will be able to be booked at 12 months. At least this is my assumed understanding.


----------



## kozykritter

chemteach said:


> I'm a bit confused.  The salesperson I met this morning at a Marriott tour told me that all Vistana weeks will automatically be part of the new Abound program as Marriott Vacation Club Points - that I didn't have to purchase anything additional to have the ability to convert any developer purchased Vistana weeks into Marriott Vacation Club Points any time I wanted to (not that I would do that anyway - the conversion rate for my sheraton dessert oasis platinum week is pretty worthless in the "MVCP" system.  The main benefit I would get is having enough points with my other weeks to have Select status and therefore, platinum bonvoy status.  (At lease this is what the salesperson communicated to me - that at my current ownership, I will have an ownership that would be equivalent to around 6300 points in the "MVCP" system, and so would give me platinum tier status in Marriott.)
> 
> Is it other people's understanding that units purchased from the developer that are in the Vistana system will automatically be enrolled in the new Abound (the salesman was calling it Marriott Vacation Club Points) system when the rollout occurs in (hopefully) the next few days or weeks?  Of course, we'll know soon enough.  Interestingly, when I logged into my Vistana account today, I saw a screen message that there is a new Abound system coming soon with details to follow shortly.


That is the general understanding here based upon multiple reports of sales presentations. However it's not clear that if those owners will be automatically enrolled or if they will need to enroll themselves manually after the launch (without a fee).


----------



## chemteach

Thank you, everyone, for the quick responses.  There is a lot to read in the 110 pages of this thread.


----------



## Alwaystravelling

I'm so sick and tired of dealing with all the changes to programs.  I own 4 or 5 platinum units at Key West Bella that I bought resale and I'm expecting to get screwed by the time this is all done.  If these premium timeshares are such a great deal, then stop changing up the program and the deal every 10 years.  If it's so awesome keep the existing program.   They're going to try to merge us all into some program with lots of fancy bells and whistles, lots of fast talking , but ultimately will likely being worse conversion rates than what we already had.


----------



## VacationForever

Alwaystravelling said:


> I'm so sick and tired of dealing with all the changes to programs.  I own 4 or 5 platinum units at Key West Bella that I bought resale and I'm expecting to get screwed by the time this is all done.  If these premium timeshares are such a great deal, then stop changing up the program and the deal every 10 years.  If it's so awesome keep the existing program.   They're going to try to merge us all into some program with lots of fancy bells and whistles, lots of fast talking , but ultimately will likely being worse conversion rates than what we already had.


VSN won't go away so it really does not change what you have bought.


----------



## Alwaystravelling

You think so?   I use it to book the StarOptions for Maui.  I doubt Maui will be available once it's all done


----------



## wjarcher

Alwaystravelling said:


> You think so? I use it to book the StarOptions for Maui. I doubt Maui will be available once it's all done


From the sightings board, it seems that Vistana still does bulk deposits of Maui for next year, let us hope they still have some inventory for staroptions after the merge.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## VacationForever

Alwaystravelling said:


> You think so?   I use it to book the StarOptions for Maui.  I doubt Maui will be available once it's all done


Maui will still be in VSN and II.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I am hoping that most owners of "options" of any type will choose not to enroll.  But as Alwaystravelling said, I am worried that inventory will diminish for places like Maui for exchange and for using mandatory or voluntary options.  We will know in a few years.


----------



## Tucsonadventurer

chemteach said:


> I'm a bit confused.  The salesperson I met this morning at a Marriott tour told me that all Vistana weeks will automatically be part of the new Abound program as Marriott Vacation Club Points - that I didn't have to purchase anything additional to have the ability to convert any developer purchased Vistana weeks into Marriott Vacation Club Points any time I wanted to (not that I would do that anyway - the conversion rate for my sheraton dessert oasis platinum week is pretty worthless in the "MVCP" system.  The main benefit I would get is having enough points with my other weeks to have Select status and therefore, platinum bonvoy status.  (At lease this is what the salesperson communicated to me - that at my current ownership, I will have an ownership that would be equivalent to around 6300 points in the "MVCP" system, and so would give me platinum tier status in Marriott.)
> 
> Is it other people's understanding that units purchased from the developer that are in the Vistana system will automatically be enrolled in the new Abound (the salesman was calling it Marriott Vacation Club Points) system when the rollout occurs in (hopefully) the next few days or weeks?  Of course, we'll know soon enough.  Interestingly, when I logged into my Vistana account today, I saw a screen message that there is a new Abound system coming soon with details to follow shortly.


Resale weeks don't qualify, but otherwise yes you can use the program


----------



## jcflorian

I am an owner at Westin Kaanapali Oceans North Villas  (odd years- 2 br lo-   176,700 star options per use year
Also own even years  (1 BR-Premium) at Westin Kierland Villas for October usuage.   44,000 star options per use year.

Has anyone heard anything about value of these 2 properties in terms of MVC pts.    I would need  a lot to give up Maui wk.

Thanks to all who reply.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

jcflorian said:


> I am an owner at Westin Kaanapali Oceans North Villas  (odd years- 2 br lo-   176,700 star options per use year
> Also own even years  (1 BR-Premium) at Westin Kierland Villas for October usuage.   44,000 star options per use year.
> 
> Has anyone heard anything about value of these 2 properties in terms of MVC pts.    I would need  a lot to give up Maui wk.
> 
> Thanks to all who reply.


There's a whole thread about it currently on this page.

Vistana to Abound Point Conversion Tracker


----------



## dioxide45

jcflorian said:


> I am an owner at Westin Kaanapali Oceans North Villas  (odd years- 2 br lo-   176,700 star options per use year
> Also own even years  (1 BR-Premium) at Westin Kierland Villas for October usuage.   44,000 star options per use year.
> 
> Has anyone heard anything about value of these 2 properties in terms of MVC pts.    I would need  a lot to give up Maui wk.
> 
> Thanks to all who reply.


No one has reported a 44,000 WKV value yet. It is your job to now find out


----------



## lily28

small platinum kierland 67100 option, 2150 marriott points


----------



## MICROZE

lily28 said:


> small platinum kierland 67100 option, 2150 marriott points


Something doesn't add up.
WKV-2BR-PLATINUM+ [148100-SO] accrues 4050-DCP.
If the WKV-1BR-SMALL-PLATINUM+ [67100-SO] accrues 2150-DCP, does this mean that the 1BR-LARGE [81000-SO] accrues 1900-DCP?


----------



## byeloe

MICROZE said:


> Something doesn't add up.
> WKV-2BR-PLATINUM+ [148100-SO] accrues 4050-DCP.
> If the WKV-1BR-SMALL-PLATINUM+ [67100-SO] accrues 2150-DCP, does this mean that the 1BR-LARGE [81000-SO] accrues 1900-DCP?


no, it seems that the two separate 1bd units will get more points combined  than the 2BD.


----------



## MICROZE

byeloe said:


> no, it seems that the two separate 1bd units will get more points combined  than the 2BD.


Since I have a 2BR-LO-PLAT+ [4050-DCP], can I elect to convert ONLY the 1BR-SMALL-PLAT+ [2150-DCP] and retain the 1BR-LARGE-PLAT+ within VSN?


----------



## dioxide45

MICROZE said:


> Since I have a 2BR-LO-PLAT+ [4050-DCP], can I elect to convert ONLY the 1BR-SMALL-PLAT+ [2150-DCP] and retain the 1BR-LARGE-PLAT+ within VSN?


I thought early on that you might be able to, but I suspect you won't. Otherwise why would anyone elect points for the entire 2BR. I suspect you will be required to elect the entire unit you own. Just like Marriott owners have to do.


----------



## byeloe

MICROZE said:


> Since I have a 2BR-LO-PLAT+ [4050-DCP], can I elect to convert ONLY the 1BR-SMALL-PLAT+ [2150-DCP] and retain the 1BR-LARGE-PLAT+ within VSN?


If you have other Marriott ownership that allows you to purchase points, then you would be far better off to rent out your WKV and purchase the points when needed


----------



## DanCali

MICROZE said:


> Since I have a 2BR-LO-PLAT+ [4050-DCP], can I elect to convert ONLY the 1BR-SMALL-PLAT+ [2150-DCP] and retain the 1BR-LARGE-PLAT+ within VSN?



I also own 2BR LO and have zero intention to ever convert them to 4050 DC points. 

If I ever need more points I can rent out WKV Platinum for $4500 (conservative estimate) and use that cash to rent about 6400 points from others. Or, if 4050 DC points is sufficient, I can rent those for about $2800 and pocket the $1700+ difference.

So basically, every time you elect DC points for WKV you are leaving about $1700+ (or 2400 DC points) on the table.


----------



## bdavidson

Just got out of our second owners update this year where they were discussing the new Abound program. One thing todays sales rep told me is that if i owned no MVC or Sheraton/Weston flex points, the MVC levels do not apply. We are basically no-status in MVC so would be the 10 month window (?) not the 13 month window. Only if we had flex or any MVC points, would the MVC levels apply based on all of our deeded week ownership.

Also, i was told by St John Bay Vista wouldn’t convert at all unless i owned MVC or Sheraton/Weston flex.

Anyone else understand that to be true?


----------



## Eric B

bdavidson said:


> Anyone else understand that to be true?



Neither we nor the sales staff have access to the rules and guidelines for the Abound affiliation for VSN owners, so it's pretty much like Schrodinger's truth - both true and false at the same time until we can finally check it against them and actually observe what it really is.


----------



## dioxide45

bdavidson said:


> Just got out of our second owners update this year where they were discussing the new Abound program. One thing todays sales rep told me is that if i owned no MVC or Sheraton/Weston flex points, the MVC levels do not apply. We are basically no-status in MVC so would be the 10 month window (?) not the 13 month window. Only if we had flex or any MVC points, would the MVC levels apply based on all of our deeded week ownership.
> 
> Also, i was told by St John Bay Vista wouldn’t convert at all unless i owned MVC or Sheraton/Weston flex.
> 
> Anyone else understand that to be true?


We know that Vistana 3*, 4* and 5* will respectively get Executive, Presidential and Chairmans in the new Abound program. It doesn't matter if the Abound points come from Flex or weeks based VOIs. There is still some questions around how they will implement if your VSN owner status equals Executive but your number of Abound points is enough for Presidential, I expect one would be presidential and the conversations from 3*, 4* and 5* are just there to get people into the system and grandfather in the VSN ownership levels into Abnound.


----------



## remowidget

bdavidson said:


> Just got out of our second owners update this year where they were discussing the new Abound program. One thing todays sales rep told me is that if i owned no MVC or Sheraton/Weston flex points, the MVC levels do not apply. We are basically no-status in MVC so would be the 10 month window (?) not the 13 month window. Only if we had flex or any MVC points, would the MVC levels apply based on all of our deeded week ownership.
> 
> Also, i was told by St John Bay Vista wouldn’t convert at all unless i owned MVC or Sheraton/Weston flex.
> 
> Anyone else understand that to be true?


----------



## bdavidson

Doesn’t quite answer my questions… I’m primarily looking for access to the Abound 13 month, 1+ day, reservation window and being able to convert my St John Bay Vista to Abound points. Sales rep specifically said if i didn’t own any Flex (I dont) or MVC (I dont), i would not be able to get access to either of those benefits.

I’m considering purchase the minimum Sheraton Flex solely to get those two benefits on the cheap. (MVC minimum purchases and annual maintenance are very high)


----------



## Eric B

bdavidson said:


> Doesn’t quite answer my questions… I’m primarily looking for access to the Abound 13 month, 1+ day, reservation window and being able to convert my St John Bay Vista to Abound points. Sales rep specifically said if i didn’t own any Flex (I dont) or MVC (I dont), i wouldnot be able to get access to either of those benefits.



The current understanding is that if your Bay Vista ownership is retail or requalified resale (i.e., is in the VSN) you will be able to convert it to Abound points.  We'll see for sure when the rules actually come out, but there is a very high likelihood that the sales rep was not speaking the truth as anyone understands it.


----------



## bdavidson

Eric B said:


> Neither we nor the sales staff have access to the rules and guidelines for the Abound affiliation for VSN owners, so it's pretty much like Schrodinger's truth - both true and false at the same time until we can finally check it against them and actually observe what it really is.



Ok, then i think i will wait and risk the savings of purchasing flex now. Thank you.


----------



## remowidget

...


----------



## bdavidson

Eric B said:


> The current understanding is that if your Bay Vista ownership is retail or requalified resale (i.e., is in the VSN) you will be able to convert it to Abound points.  We'll see for sure when the rules actually come out, but there is a very high likelihood that the sales rep was not speaking the truth as anyone understands it.



Got it, it was clear that their system has my retail purchase of every other year in bay vista with no Abound points value. And their nice little web app couldn’t lookup Bay Vista either.

if I was a flex or mvc owner, they would “retro” my bay vista and give me ~4600 every other year. But only half would count towards the Abound level calculation. They were showing clear charts that outline Abound levels based on converting Staroptions to destination club points.


----------



## Eric B

bdavidson said:


> Got it, it was clear that their system has my retail purchase of every other year in bay vista with no Abound points value. And their nice little web app couldn’t lookup Bay Vista either.
> 
> if I was a flex or mvc owner, they would “retro” my bay vista and give me ~4600 every other year. But only half would count towards the Abound level calculation. They were showing clear charts that outline Abound levels based on converting Staroptions to destination club points.



Interesting.  Was there any indication at all that their system was actually run by Marriott officially rather than just being something cobbled together by the local sales department to provide purchase motivation?  Same with the rest of the information provided?


----------



## tstiv1996

Alwaystravelling said:


> You think so?   I use it to book the StarOptions for Maui.  I doubt Maui will be available once it's all done


Im in same boat as you, bought SVV to use in Maui or Kauai. Concerned it may not all work out as advertised at purchase...  Id like to see inventory held back for some 8 mo reservations, or hope that more vistana folks will want to play in Marriott than vice versa for a couple years to explore and keep some inventory open but I'm not holding out hope, we may get the bad end of this deal. 

If I may play devils advocate at least for myself, the price paid for SVV when compared to booking without a timeshare in WKORV, got me far better than breaking even on the first trip alone (not sure how this math works for your 4 or 5 units but id guess its close). Im going to hang for another couple years and see if I can continue getting value. Worst case, I got some value but not as much as I was hoping for. Best case, the investment continues to pay off. I don't like admitting it, but that was theoretically always a risk for us not buying for where we wanted to use the SO's.


----------



## William Seward

Got this notification when I login.

I wonder if this could mead Abound is about to launch?


----------



## iowaguy09

William Seward said:


> Got this notification when I login.
> 
> I wonder if this could mead Abound is about to launch?
> 
> View attachment 61001


I had logged in this morning and saw the pop-up message that has been showing up for the last couple of weeks.  Just logged in again now and saw the same pop-up you have reported, so this is definitely something new and different as of today.  Yes, it may truly be a little more confirmation that Aug 1 is the day "it" starts happening.


----------



## kozykritter

William Seward said:


> Got this notification when I login.
> 
> I wonder if this could mead Abound is about to launch?
> 
> View attachment 61001


The Marriott ownership website shows the identical message after you log in so clearly it's some type of coordinated upgrade. Fingers crossed!


----------



## samcar1

I just hope it works out to be a positive thing and we all get to go on great vacations.  
By the way, how does a person rent points?  I generally rent a few of my booked weeks but didn’t know about renting points. Thanks


----------



## lorenmd

i've been texting with my sales rep this past week because i have 126k home options in westin and wanted to get that to 148k home options so i could have the 13 months window in westin. he told me i could but only until july 30. then it will all go away and they will only be selling marriott points. no more opportunity to get westin flex which is what i want. they have been doing these traveling owners upgrades to let owners know what's happening and have had overwhelming response. he thinks it's going to be much harder for him to sell marriott points cause they are so much more expensive. he was very honest with me, we are friends. his best price he could get me for 21k more westin flex home options was about 11k all in. i have a few more days to think about it.  i just want the 13 month window for a 2 bedroom in hawaii or colorado


----------



## jabberwocky

lorenmd said:


> i've been texting with my sales rep this past week because i have 126k home options in westin and wanted to get that to 148k home options so i could have the 13 months window in westin. he told me i could but only until july 30. then it will all go away and they will only be selling marriott points. no more opportunity to get westin flex which is what i want. they have been doing these traveling owners upgrades to let owners know what's happening and have had overwhelming response. he thinks it's going to be much harder for him to sell marriott points cause they are so much more expensive. he was very honest with me, we are friends. his best price he could get me for 21k more westin flex home options was about 11k all in. i have a few more days to think about it.  i just want the 13 month window for a 2 bedroom in hawaii or colorado


That’s pretty expensive for WFlex. That would convert into around 730 DP. So you’re paying over $15/point. The offer we received last week for 81,000 EOY worked out to $13.90/DP when converted (using the 28.8:1 ratio).

Keep in mind that 148,100 will only convert to around 5,140 DP. That won’t go very far to get a 2BR in Hawaii. If you are planning on using it as DP or HomeOptions at one of the Maui Westins, you won’t be able to do so until 12 months in advance.


----------



## dioxide45

lorenmd said:


> i've been texting with my sales rep this past week because i have 126k home options in westin and wanted to get that to 148k home options so i could have the 13 months window in westin. he told me i could but only until july 30. then it will all go away and they will only be selling marriott points. no more opportunity to get westin flex which is what i want. they have been doing these traveling owners upgrades to let owners know what's happening and have had overwhelming response. he thinks it's going to be much harder for him to sell marriott points cause they are so much more expensive. he was very honest with me, we are friends. his best price he could get me for 21k more westin flex home options was about 11k all in. i have a few more days to think about it.  i just want the 13 month window for a 2 bedroom in hawaii or colorado


13 months won't be into Westin properties as it has already been confirmed that Visana resorts will only be available in Abound at 12 months.


----------



## jabberwocky

Just a friendly suggestion that you may want to print or get screen captures of all your existing reservations as well as your StarOption Balances and ownerships.

It will probably not be an issue - but we are talking about Marriott IT here.


----------



## samcar1

13 months is only for Marriot DC. If you own Westin Flex you would have 12 in your home properties or Vistana Flex at 12.  If I want to go to a Westin property with vistana options it’s 8 months out but if I convert to DC points it’s 13 months as I am 4*
Also, I purchased Westin flex this week. I paid 31k which is a 15% discount.  I also got 164k extra options for 1 yr.  I don’t calculate price per points but In the end I’ll have over 14k in dc points.  Marriott points moving forward are going to be insanely expensive.  I say buy now.


----------



## pchung6

samcar1 said:


> If I want to go to a Westin property with vistana options it’s 8 months out but if I convert to DC points it’s 13 months as I am 4*


This is not correct. You can only book Marriott at13 months. You can only book Westin at 12 months with DC points and it’s subject to enough owners convert to DC points for enough inventory.


----------



## pchung6

samcar1 said:


> Marriott points moving forward are going to be insanely expensive.  I say buy now.


Why you think Marriott points will appreciate in value? When was the last time anything good happened to Marriott customers or timeshare customers? I just don’t recall any. Resales do appreciate since last year, but still dirt cheap vs developer purchase. I suggest you to rescind now.


----------



## VacationForever

samcar1 said:


> 13 months is only for Marriot DC. If you own Westin Flex you would have 12 in your home properties or Vistana Flex at 12.  If I want to go to a Westin property with vistana options it’s 8 months out but if I convert to DC points it’s 13 months as I am 4*
> Also, I purchased Westin flex this week. I paid 31k which is a 15% discount.  I also got 164k extra options for 1 yr.  I don’t calculate price per points but In the end I’ll have over 14k in dc points.  Marriott points moving forward are going to be insanely expensive.  I say buy now.


Were you already 4* before the latest purchase?  If you were, then I would definitely rescind. 4* gets you Presidential. 14K or 10K dc points get the same Presidential level.  If you were only 3* and want to get to Presidential, you can buy resale DC points at about $7 per point to get you over the 10K DC points hump.


----------



## samcar1

VacationForever said:


> Were you already 4* before the latest purchase?  If you were, then I would definitely rescind. 4* gets you Presidential. 14K or 10K dc points get the same Presidential level.  If you were only 3* and want to get to Presidential, you can buy resale DC points at about $7 per point to get you over the 10K DC points hump.


Honestly, im pretty comfortable with my purchase. I never said properties will go up in value, I said that buying Marriott points will be extremely expensive. This year I turned a bunch of my options into Marriott bonvoy points, went to the Maldives, and stayed free at the st regis.  The room was $2,500 per night.  For me it was an enormous value.  I like to know I can play that way and have a week left over to rent.  
I’m looking forward to the new program. I also don’t have time to overthink it.   If I did, my head would explode.  Lol.


----------



## samcar1

pchung6 said:


> This is not correct. You can only book Marriott at13 months. You can only book Westin at 12 months with DC points and it’s subject to enough owners convert to DC points for enough inventory.


Sorry. I wasn’t clear.  You are correct.  I can only book the Westin flex I own 12 months out.  The 13 month window would be converting my option for Marriott dc


----------



## DavidnRobin

dioxide45 said:


> 13 months won't be into Westin properties as it has already been confirmed that Visana resorts will only be available in Abound at 12 months.



Thank you.
I keep seeing this 13 month reservation for Vistana properties coming from interpretation of what Sales is claiming. Same on Facebook. (mainly Maui and St John)
People are actually buying this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DavidnRobin

samcar1 said:


> Honestly, im pretty comfortable with my purchase. I never said properties will go up in value, I said that buying Marriott points will be extremely expensive. This year I turned a bunch of my options into Marriott bonvoy points, went to the Maldives, and stayed free at the st regis. The room was $2,500 per night. For me it was an enormous value. I like to know I can play that way and have a week left over to rent.
> I’m looking forward to the new program. I also don’t have time to overthink it. If I did, my head would explode. Lol.



That’s called fuzzy math.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## samcar1

DavidnRobin said:


> That’s called fuzzy math.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i know.  but it gets me where i want to go for a great price.  I'm going to Park City 350k points.  $1,400 night.  Renting out 1 week for $4k and still have left over options, $7k room stay will cost me maybe $3k if I don't rent out another property.  It is fuzzy math but I work every angle.


----------



## bdavidson

Eric B said:


> Interesting.  Was there any indication at all that their system was actually run by Marriott officially rather than just being something cobbled together by the local sales department to provide purchase motivation?  Same with the rest of the information provided?


Yea, they had all of my property print outs, one per deeded week ownership. Looks like the same ones i get at any location’s sales presentation. The printout clearly had no Abound point value for my Bay Vista in St John, but did for all the rest. There was some word in the point value position that i cant recall at this time. And their web form that allows them to add property’s to see the Abount point value all added up has no option for Bay Vista either. (I have seen some photos from others posted in this thread that looked like the same app. My sales rep introduced themselves as a Mariott 10+ year sales person and im currently at the Sheraton in Myrtle Beach.


----------



## dioxide45

Is WSJ Bay Vista ownership based on HomeOptions and not deeded weeks? What WSJ phases are HomeOption based?


----------



## MICROZE

samcar1 said:


> Honestly, im pretty comfortable with my purchase. I never said properties will go up in value, I said that buying Marriott points will be extremely expensive. This year I turned a bunch of my options into Marriott bonvoy points, went to the Maldives, and stayed free at the st regis.  The room was $2,500 per night.  For me it was an enormous value.  I like to know I can play that way and have a week left over to rent.
> I’m looking forward to the new program. I also don’t have time to overthink it.   If I did, my head would explode.  Lol.


Agree with your perspective on Bonvoy-Points.

I would inverse the synopsis to be "Bonvoy-Points *Devalued*" as opposed to "Bonvoy-Points *Expensive*".

We [8 Family-Members] spent 5-Nigts at St. Regis Maldives DEC-2021 and booked 2 x Rooms [2BR-Overwater-Sunset: 5-People] + St Regis Overwater-Suite [3-People] and paid 800K-Bonvoy [400K x 2].
Currently the price for a Regular-Overwater [NOT St. Regis Suite] is 456K-Bonvoy and the 2BR-Overwater is 1.2M-Bonvoy.

For next APR-2023 we booked 2-Rooms 5-Nights at the JW Marriott [352K x 2] as the St. Regis is too expensive.

*2021-2BR: 5-PEOPLE [Local-Fee is for Seaplane-Transfers]*







*2023-2BR: 5-PEOPLE [Beach NOT Overwater]*




We would never convert our TS-Weeks/Points to Bonvoy.
We can quickly spin-up a few million Bonvoy points due to Vistana providing a dozen 330K-CERTS at $2275 [+Amex- 6-Points/$] works out to Half-Price [¢6.6/Point].


----------



## samcar1

yes.  we have that as well.  It works out well for me.  I always go to presentations, rack up some points when offered, and rack up a lot of points on my marriott card.  I am also a member of the Marriott Harbour Beach club in Fort Lauderdale which I get a lot of perks at as well.  Marriott has proven to be great travel for me.We had the Sunset over water for 8 nights (a little too long) should have stayed longer in Dubai, but it was spectacular.  Also booked a cruise thru Marriott (not on points, had and 8k credit NCL) and received a ton of points that way. I travel at least 6-7 times per year.


----------



## alexadeparis

dioxide45 said:


> Is WSJ Bay Vista ownership based on HomeOptions and not deeded weeks? What WSJ phases are HomeOption based?


No- Bay Vista is just Voluntary StarOptions. Sunset Bay and Coral Vista are the new HomeOptions concept.


----------



## ndang3

We are 3 star elite but DP value of our ownership value is 10,400 destination points which is presidential tier. This is based on a presentation we did Tuesday on-site at the Grande Ocean in HHI. Anyone know if 3 star VSN with qualifying 10K+ DP will still be presidential?


----------



## VacationForever

ndang3 said:


> We are 3 star elite but DP value of our ownership value is 10,400 destination points which is presidential tier. This is based on a presentation we did Tuesday on-site at the Grande Ocean in HHI. Anyone know if 3 star VSN with qualifying 10K+ DP will still be presidential?


Yes.  If you get more than 10K, you will be Presidential.  Our close friend who is 4 star elite, translates to well over Chairman's Club.  He also owns an enrolled Ko Olina week.  They are not moving the goal post, i.e. point requirement for each level, during this launch.  I speculate that over the next 18 months, they will create a new level above Chairman's Club with improved benefits over Chairman's Club.  I doubt they will need to grandfather  in Chairman's Club owners who don't make this new level, as long as they don't reduce Chairman's Club benefits.


----------



## remowidget

...


----------



## ndang3

VacationForever said:


> Yes.  If you get more than 10K, you will be Presidential.  Our close friend who is 4 star elite, translates to well over Chairman's Club.  They are not moving the goal post, i.e. point requirement for each level, during this launch.  I speculate that over the next 18 months, they will create a new level above Chairman's Club with improved benefits over Chairman's Club.  I doubt they will need to grandfather  in Chairman's Club owners who don't make this new level, as long as they don't reduce Chairman's Club benefits.


I agree with you - the way for Marriott to continue recuperating costs from this merger is to continue to incentivize people/owners to upgrade. At our recent presentation they did say anyone already at a certain level will keep those same benefits no matter what.


----------



## GonetoMaui

Going to an owners update today.

I was chatting with the manager of the sales team about the roll out date when we made our appointment and also the website being down on 8/1, and he told me that he had received an envelope yesterday from management with instructions to "Open on August 2nd".

Not sure if this means anything, but along the website being down on 8/1 it does seems interesting.


----------



## samcar1

i just heard the 15th.  Hope your's is correct


----------



## VacationForever

samcar1 said:


> i just heard the 15th.  Hope your's is correct


When did you hear it?  We met with corporate sales yesterday, their current target date is on August 1, after the 15 hours downtime.


----------



## samcar1

just now.  I'm hoping my contact is wrong.  We will see soon.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

GonetoMaui said:


> Going to an owners update today.
> 
> I was chatting with the manager of the sales team about the roll out date when we made our appointment and also the website being down on 8/1, and he told me that he had received an envelope yesterday from management with instructions to "Open on August 2nd".
> 
> Not sure if this means anything, but along the website being down on 8/1 it does seems interesting.


So maybe there is truth in the rumor that they are going to file for Chapter 11 and have already issued the pink slips in advance


----------



## dioxide45

The new date for the cutover of the program is August 7th. Heard at a Westin owner update, so take it for what it is worth...


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> The new date for the cutover of the program is August 7th. Heard at a Westin owner update, so take it for what it is worth...


I guess that guy with the envelope marked "open on August 2nd" will be disappointed


----------



## VacationForever

We know that any day after August 1st is going to hold true.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> I guess that guy with the envelope marked "open on August 2nd" will be disappointed


Yeah, they probably will get another envelope that says to open on the 1st and it will say inside to not open the other envelope till the 7th. I think the dates at this point sare just comical. I get the impression they are pushing the dates back to try and sell down Westin and Sheraton Flex in addition to technical issues they are running into.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> Yeah, they probably will get another envelope that says to open on the 1st and it will say inside to not open the other envelope till the 7th. I think the dates at this point sare just comical. I get the impression they are pushing the dates back to try and sell down Westin and Sheraton Flex in addition to technical issues they are running into.


It's like an episode of Get Smart! Good point on the sell down, entirely possible. I had the thought today that I'm glad that I don't work at Marriott in charge of all of this stuff because it seems like a huge headache. Happy to be an owner out here taking the ride instead.


----------



## jabberwocky

I still think the guy we had at SSB was pushing it when he said “definitely before Labor Day”.


----------



## jabberwocky

GonetoMaui said:


> Going to an owners update today.
> 
> I was chatting with the manager of the sales team about the roll out date when we made our appointment and also the website being down on 8/1, and he told me that he had received an envelope yesterday from management with instructions to "Open on August 2nd".
> 
> Not sure if this means anything, but along the website being down on 8/1 it does seems interesting.


I wish there was another way to communicate with all sales employees simultaneously and send mail like this electronically. It would avoid having to lick envelops.

That would be a great invention.


----------



## VacationForever

I still believe in the August 1st date.  The corporate guy, who was not the corporate salesperson, seemed to know his stuff.  He said the current target is August 1st but he said they had been promised so many dates before and each time they had missed it, so don't hold him to August 1st. But that was the best information that he had as of yesterday.

Of course if the system merge fails during the downtime, they will have to roll it back to before the downtime.


----------



## RC51Tofuman

We just had our owner update today. I am trying to catch-up on this thread for the last 5 pages of this thread.

They told us Aug 8 is when the merger happens. We declined to take up on their offer that was given to us today. We kept the paper with all the chicken scratch of the Sales Pitch.

We are current owners of 1 bedroom Westin Flex at Nanea as 1 of the Home properties. 

They made the pitch of us upgrading to 2 bedroom, purchasing all 6 certificates (never to be offered again), 13 month window booking, bump from executive (which means nothing in new program) to platinum, plus bonus options deposited in our bank.

I am at the pool right now with Wife and 5 year old and can't think of the further details ....but it's all on paper back at the hotel room.

Is purchasing a resale still the better way to go in this soon New environment????


Update from earlier Post
Upgrade to 163,000 (2bedroom)
Platinum for life
104,000 bonus options
58,000 options
1x offer to purchase 6 coupons
Cost to us would be
$24,325 + 895 escrow
New maintenance fee $3423



Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


----------



## kozykritter

Some may find this interesting. Aboundbymarriott.com and Aboundbymarriottvacations.com are both registered to a firm that protects corporate brands online, the same company that marriottvacationclub.com is registered to. Most likely Marriott hired them to stop people from putting up fake websites using the new name or stealing the domains away from them outright. What I find most interesting is these sites were registered September 1st and October 20th of 2021 so Marriott must have already had the Abound name picked out almost a year ago. Putting either of the Abound domains into a browser has led me to a blank page rather than a message that the domain was not found. Interesting still!


----------



## robertk2012

kozykritter said:


> Some may find this interesting. Aboundbymarriott.com and Aboundbymarriottvacations.com are both registered to a firm that protects corporate brands online. Most likely Marriott hired them to stop people from putting up fake websites using the new name or stealing the domains away from them outright. What I find most interesting is these sites were registered September 1st and October 20th of 2021 so Marriott must have already had the Abound name picked out almost a year ago.


I would hope so


----------



## VacationForever

kozykritter said:


> Some may find this interesting. Aboundbymarriott.com and Aboundbymarriottvacations.com are both registered to a firm that protects corporate brands online, the same company that marriottvacationclub.com is registered to. Most likely Marriott hired them to stop people from putting up fake websites using the new name or stealing the domains away from them outright. What I find most interesting is these sites were registered September 1st and October 20th of 2021 so Marriott must have already had the Abound name picked out almost a year ago. Putting either of the abound domains into a browser has led me to a blank page rather than a message that the domain was not found. Interesting still!


Good sleuth work!


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> Some may find this interesting. Aboundbymarriott.com and Aboundbymarriottvacations.com are both registered to a firm that protects corporate brands online, the same company that marriottvacationclub.com is registered to. Most likely Marriott hired them to stop people from putting up fake websites using the new name or stealing the domains away from them outright. What I find most interesting is these sites were registered September 1st and October 20th of 2021 so Marriott must have already had the Abound name picked out almost a year ago. Putting either of the Abound domains into a browser has led me to a blank page rather than a message that the domain was not found. Interesting still!


I beleive they filed for the trademark sometime back in October. So I would expect they buy the domains before doing that in order to protect the domain names and not have to pay big bucks to buy them. THis is quite common and buying domains is very cheap.


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> I [believe] they filed for the trademark sometime back in October.



They file for the service marks on September 1, 2021.





__





						TESS -- Error
					





					tmsearch.uspto.gov
				








__





						TESS -- Error
					





					tmsearch.uspto.gov


----------



## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> They file for the service marks on September 1, 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TESS -- Error
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tmsearch.uspto.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TESS -- Error
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tmsearch.uspto.gov


I was close...


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> I was close...



Good enough for horseshoes, hand grenades and special weapons....


----------



## kozykritter

Eric B said:


> They file for the service marks on September 1, 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TESS -- Error
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tmsearch.uspto.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TESS -- Error
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tmsearch.uspto.gov


Interesting. That is the same day they registered aboundbymarriottvacations.com which makes me think that that might be the web address they use. They registered aboundbymarriott.com 7 weeks later, probably when somebody in a meeting said hey what if someone forgets to put the vacations after marriott and ends up on some nefarious website instead  They will probably forward it as a redirect to the actual site.


----------



## daviator

RC51Tofuman said:


> They told us Aug 8 is when the merger happens. We declined to take up on their offer that was given to us today. We kept the paper with all the chicken scratch of the Sales Pitch.


I really wish everyone, including MVC, would stop calling it a "merger."  The only merger that is happening, happened years ago, when MVC bought and merged with Vistana.

The programs are not merging; the new Abound program is really just the old DP program applied as an overlay on top of Vistana's network.  Maybe it will feel like a merger to those who assign their ownership usage to Abound every year, but for many/most of us, that will not be a very prudent thing to do.  Unless you want to use your ownership to stay in the lower-standard Marriott-branded properties, not much changes except for the elite program.


----------



## dioxide45

It looks like someone else might have registered marriottabound.com though.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> It looks like someone else might have registered marriottabound.com though.


The plot thickens...cue sinister music.


----------



## remowidget

Vistana.com is completely down. HTTP ERROR 500. It's surprising there isn't an update page or something.


----------



## iowaguy09

I got a screen with nothing but the message that was popping up for the last few days with the Vistana logo at the top.


----------



## dioxide45

This is what I see;


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

remowidget said:


> Vistana.com is completely down. HTTP ERROR 500. It's surprising there isn't an update page or something.


They advertised for the last week or so that it would be down for 15 hours today from 12:30am EST


----------



## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> This is what I see;
> View attachment 61416


I'm getting that now.


----------



## samcar1

cant wait to see it at 4pm...  probably no difference.  lol


----------



## cubigbird

dioxide45 said:


> This is what I see;
> View attachment 61416


And loss of radio transmission between Apollo astronauts and mission control for Earth re-entry was only approximately 1 minute vs MVC down for 15 hours…..Just saying…..


----------



## samcar1

maybe we will be surprised.  Stranger things have happened


----------



## jabberwocky

cubigbird said:


> And loss of radio transmission between Apollo astronauts and mission control for Earth re-entry was only approximately 1 minute vs MVC down for 15 hours…..Just saying…..


And the sad part is this isn’t rocket science!


----------



## dioxide45

I wonder if they aren't doing a full database migration today. Depending on the volume of data, that can take a long time. Especially if they are migrating historical records. After data is migrated, they would then have to validate it all moved as expected and connect existing front end connectors to the new Db. We may not see a front end change to the website this go around, but we shall see.


----------



## alexadeparis

dioxide45 said:


> I wonder if they aren't doing a full database migration today. Depending on the volume of data, that can take a long time. Especially if they are migrating historical records. After data is migrated, they would then have to validate it all moved as expected and connect existing front end connectors to the new Db. We may not see a front end change to the website this go around, but we shall see.


I'm not in IT but aren't these huge changes usually done overnight and/or weekends? Why would they choose a workday and a Monday at that?


----------



## samcar1

because people do not work anymore.  especially on weekends.  Welcome to 2022.


----------



## dioxide45

alexadeparis said:


> I'm not in IT but aren't these huge changes usually done overnight and/or weekends? Why would they choose a workday and a Monday at that?


They usually would be, I suspect though that MVC looked at website demand and found this timeframe to perhaps be the lowest volume. I think only the 13 month booking window for weeks for the first week of September opens today and that is call in only. Saturday and Sunday probably have a lot of people searching for availability as they use weekends to plan vacations. Other days of the week potentially have either 12 month weeks inventory release and Tuesday and Friday have inventory releases for points reservations. There really is no good time to do this and with a 15 hour window, it is going to hit US business hours at some point.


----------



## jcflorian

I am owner at 2BR Oceanfront Lockoff at Westin Kaanapali Ocean Villas north.  I always book my room 1 year to the day of my planned arrival.  I keep hearing about 13 month reservations.  I am hoping that is not going to hurt me in getting ideal room I always get in Maui.   I am a little concerned.    I have always called at 9:00am and always gotten building and floor I wanted .


----------



## dioxide45

jcflorian said:


> I am owner at 2BR Oceanfront Lockoff at Westin Kaanapali Ocean Villas north.  I always book my room 1 year to the day of my planned arrival.  I keep hearing about 13 month reservations.  I am hoping that is not going to hurt me in getting ideal room I always get in Maui.   I am a little concerned.    I have always called at 9:00am and always gotten building and floor I wanted .


We pretty much already know that Vistana resorts won't be open to reservations until 12 months. THe big question though is, for owners that elect Club Points, how does the inventory they give up impact home resort reservations. There was a long thread on this topic about a month ago.


----------



## samcar1

I just got confirmation.  Marriott will not have a 13 month reservation window on Vistana.  They will have a 12 month booking window.


----------



## samcar1

dioxide45 said:


> We pretty much already know that Vistana resorts won't be open to reservations until 12 months. THe big question though is, for owners that elect Club Points, how does the inventory they give up impact home resort reservations. There was a long thread on this topic about a month ago.


However,  it will be interesting to see if it will actually be easy to book Marriott at a 13 month window or is it a huge rush to the phone.  I don't think you can book it on line.


----------



## dioxide45

samcar1 said:


> However,  it will be interesting to see if it will actually be easy to book Marriott at a 13 month window or is it a huge rush to the phone.  I don't think you can book it on line.


Marriott points reservations can be made online at 13 months, at least with the current website.


----------



## samcar1

thanks for clarifying.  Someone had said you need to call.


----------



## ragdoll

samcar1 said:


> I just got confirmation.  Marriott will not have a 13 month reservation window on Vistana.  They will have a 12 month booking window.


That  is good news but it remains  to be seen if Vistana owners will be able to get on line at the exact time needed to get their favored reservation. Might MVC hold back availability a few minutes so that their bookings will go through first?


----------



## samcar1

i guess that remains to be seen.   It's been such a long wait......


----------



## dioxide45

ragdoll said:


> That  is good news but it remains  to be seen if Vistana owners will be able to get on line at the exact time needed to get their favored reservation. Might MVC hold back availability a few minutes so that their bookings will go through first?


I doubt it. I would expect all inventory to be available to all Abound members at the same time.


----------



## SueDonJ

samcar1 said:


> thanks for clarifying.  Someone had said you need to call.


It is a bit confusing with Marriott.

Using Destination Club/Abound Points (either purchased Trust Points or Exchange Points from Enrolled Weeks) it's been possible from Day One to use the online system to book available inventory online at any of the Reservation Windows.

Using Weeks, the system supports online bookings of single Weeks anytime from the 12-mos window opening, but it doesn't support immediate confirmation at the 13-mos window (which can only be used to book multiple consecutive/concurrent Weeks.) At the 13-mos window it's important to call in as soon as the window opens for high-demand inventory or immediate confirmation, but if you're looking for low-demand inventory and you don't mind waiting there's a mechanism on the website to send a query (which won't get processed until after the phone lines on the release date are cleared.)


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

alexadeparis said:


> I'm not in IT but aren't these huge changes usually done overnight and/or weekends? Why would they choose a workday and a Monday at that?


Probably started at 12:30am to allow a small booking window for anyone looking at 8/1/2023 but from a Vistana perspective that would be relatively small as that is a Tuesday and except for Flex, at the 12 month window reservations start Fri/Sat/Sun. Not sure what the Marriott systems rules are.

Also, don't know if you are aware but to fit 15 hours of work in 'overnight' you would have to be situated at the South Pole at this time of year


----------



## ragdoll

dioxide45 said:


> I doubt it. I would expect all inventory to be available to all Abound members at the same time.


Well, there will be many non-Abound members who are worried about this. If weeks owners are not participating in Abound, will that make priority less than it was before?


----------



## jabberwocky

ragdoll said:


> Well, there will be many non-Abound members who are worried about this. If weeks owners are not participating in Abound, will that make priority less than it was before?


It’s different inventory. Only Abound inventory can be booked by Abound members and vice versa


----------



## alexadeparis

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> Probably started at 12:30am to allow a small booking window for anyone looking at 8/1/2023 but from a Vistana perspective that would be relatively small as that is a Tuesday and except for Flex, at the 12 month window reservations start Fri/Sat/Sun. Not sure what the Marriott systems rules are.
> 
> Also, don't know if you are aware but to fit 15 hours of work in 'overnight' you would have to be situated at the South Pole at this time of year


Yeah I hear you, I just think for example a 5pm to 8am update may have been less intrusive


----------



## timsi

jabberwocky said:


> It’s different inventory. Only Abound inventory can be booked by Abound members and vice versa


It will fragment the Vistana inventory, no question about it. The more internal and external exchanges, the lower the inventory in each exchange not to mention MVC has the ability to give better weeks to Abound. MVC has an economic incentive because the peak weeks cost more points (vs VSN where all the weeks of the season cost the same)


----------



## timsi

The 15 hours of scheduled maintenance have passed 15 minutes ago. Marriott does not believe in  under promising  and over delivering it seems.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Yes, it's still down, but hopeful that this is true:





Your Owner website and reservation systems will be offline starting 12:30 a.m. Eastern Time on August 1, 2022, for a scheduled system update. We expect the website to be unavailable for approximately 15 hours.
There continues to be many behind-the-scene improvements as we bring together multiple vacation options for you to explore and enjoy.* This important update will enhance your vacation planning and online experience.*
Thank you for your patience during this extended outage.


----------



## chemteach

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> Probably started at 12:30am to allow a small booking window for anyone looking at 8/1/2023 but from a Vistana perspective that would be relatively small as that is a Tuesday and except for Flex, at the 12 month window reservations start Fri/Sat/Sun. Not sure what the Marriott systems rules are.
> 
> Also, don't know if you are aware but to fit 15 hours of work in 'overnight' you would have to be situated at the South Pole at this time of year


Yes, but the 8 month window for booking is for Saturday, April 1, 2023.


----------



## Eric B

Interesting observation while waiting for the site to come back — I’ve shifted from Silver Bonvoy status to Gold as an all resale mandatory owner with just 19 elite nights this year.  Not sure what that indicates vis-a-vis enrollment eligibility for my weeks - if enrolled, the points they should bring would get me executive or higher (i.e., platinum or titanium).


----------



## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> Interesting observation while waiting for the site to come back — I’ve shifted from Silver Bonvoy status to Gold as an all resale mandatory owner with just 19 elite nights this year.  Not sure what that indicates vis-a-vis enrollment eligibility for my weeks - if enrolled, the points they should bring would get me executive or higher (i.e., platinum or titanium).


Do you have any Elite * status in VSN, or are you below 3*? Perhaps the first step is just mapping owners over based on their * status? and those below 3* are gold at a minimum. Just hypothesizing here.


----------



## BluePrelude

Andit is still down at 5:38pm ET


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> Do you have any Elite * status in VSN, or are you below 3*? Perhaps the first step is just mapping owners over based on their * status? and those below 3* are gold at a minimum. Just hypothesizing here.



Nope - all resale

Edited to add that I'm as far below 3* as you can get....


----------



## timsi

rickandcindy23 said:


> Yes, it's still down, but hopeful that this is true:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your Owner website and reservation systems will be offline starting 12:30 a.m. Eastern Time on August 1, 2022, for a scheduled system update. We expect the website to be unavailable for approximately 15 hours.
> There continues to be many behind-the-scene improvements as we bring together multiple vacation options for you to explore and enjoy.* This important update will enhance your vacation planning and online experience.*
> Thank you for your patience during this extended outage.


A site that works would be a great enhancement, kind of like the Vistana site when Marriott was not around.


----------



## timsi

Eric B said:


> Nope - all resale


This is quite intriguing. Are all your retail purchases mandatory?


----------



## Eric B

Not all, but most.  My thought is that eligible points don’t count until enrolling them


----------



## kozykritter

BluePrelude said:


> Andit is still down at 5:38pm ET View attachment 61428


They said approximately 15 hours. It's tough to give exact time on a big IT transition because you don't know exactly where the problems will crop up until you actually do it, no matter how much planning or guessing you do up front.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

chemteach said:


> Yes, but the 8 month window for booking is for Saturday, April 1, 2023.


Only a fool would want to book for that date


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

kozykritter said:


> They said approximately 15 hours. It's tough to give exact time on a big IT transition because you don't know exactly where the problems will crop up until you actually do it, no matter how much planning or guessing you do up front.


Yes. Knowing their history (and working in IT) I took that to mean somewhere between 5 and 25 hours.


----------



## sunski

Eric B said:


> Interesting observation while waiting for the site to come back — I’ve shifted from Silver Bonvoy status to Gold as an all resale mandatory owner with just 19 elite nights this year.  Not sure what that indicates vis-a-vis enrollment eligibility for my weeks - if enrolled, the points they should bring would get me executive or higher (i.e., platinum or titanium).


I think anyone who owns with Marriott is a minimum gold


----------



## daviator

Eric B said:


> Interesting observation while waiting for the site to come back — I’ve shifted from Silver Bonvoy status to Gold as an all resale mandatory owner with just 19 elite nights this year.  Not sure what that indicates vis-a-vis enrollment eligibility for my weeks - if enrolled, the points they should bring would get me executive or higher (i.e., platinum or titanium).


I’ve had that happen before, where I was inexplicably shifted into a higher category.  Lately I was just as inexplicably shifted back to where I belonged.  So don’t get too excited…

Are you sure you don’t have any elite night credits from a Bonvoy credit card or something?  Though those would normally show up in your elite night total on the Marriott site or app.


----------



## Eric B

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> Probably started at 12:30am to allow a small booking window for anyone looking at 8/1/2023 but from a Vistana perspective that would be relatively small as that is a Tuesday and except for Flex, at the 12 month window reservations start Fri/Sat/Sun. Not sure what the Marriott systems rules are.
> 
> Also, don't know if you are aware but to fit 15 hours of work in 'overnight' you would have to be situated at the South Pole at this time of year



I had commented somewhere about April 1st being a Saturday, which would make it a poor choice of a date to start the upgrade on, but subsequently wound up needing to call customer service for something and noted that the voicemail indicated that any availability that would have been loaded on August 1st would be withheld until August 2nd (or words to that effect).  They didn't do much of a good job informing anyone of that though as there was no email notification and that fact wasn't noted on the popup, so the folks that were looking for an April 1st check in date when the window opened this morning at midnight until the 12:30 am down time would have gotten their April Fools surprise early for next year.  I wasn't one of them, but find myself wondering if there was any notification at midnight that the availability wouldn't be coming.  Thrilled and delighted....


----------



## daviator

Eric B said:


> I had commented somewhere about April 1st being a Saturday, which would make it a poor choice of a date to start the upgrade on, but subsequently wound up needing to call customer service for something and noted that the voicemail indicated that any availability that would have been loaded on August 1st would be withheld until August 2nd (or words to that effect).  They didn't do much of a good job informing anyone of that though as there was no email notification and that fact wasn't noted on the popup, so the folks that were looking for an April 1st check in date when the window opened this morning at midnight until the 12:30 am down time would have gotten their April Fools surprise early for next year.  I wasn't one of them, but find myself wondering if there was any notification at midnight that the availability wouldn't be coming.  Thrilled and delighted....


I’m pretty sure the email they sent out contained the information about the inventory that would have been loaded on August 1 being postponed until August 2.  I know I read it somewhere. Pretty sure it was in the email they sent out.


----------



## Eric B

sunski said:


> I think anyone who owns with Marriott is a minimum gold



I've seen that listed on the Status Chart linked in the Marriott stickies for folks that are enrolled in the Destination Club.  That would include resale owners there, of course.  I'm not sure that's the case for resale owners that aren't in the Destination Club and know that it isn't the case for resale Vistana owners.



daviator said:


> I’ve had that happen before, where I was inexplicably shifted into a higher category.  Lately I was just as inexplicably shifted back to where I belonged.  So don’t get too excited…
> 
> Are you sure you don’t have any elite night credits from a Bonvoy credit card or something?  Though those would normally show up in your elite night total on the Marriott site or app.



Not counting my chicks until they hatch, of course.  I do have 2 elite night credits that were not in my account that I've been trying to get them to give me from a stay at a Vistana resort, but still haven't got those listed to date.  The only thing that has changed recently is that I had them link my resale Vistana contracts to my Bonvoy account (which they said was mandatory in order to get elite night credits for a Vistana stay despite that not being in the terms and conditions) and the change was coincident with the current upgrade.  They might have messed up linking them or it might be that mandatory resale ownerships are actually eligible.  Hoping to find out soon, but won't be heartbroken if I have to just keep going to Westins.


----------



## Eric B

daviator said:


> I’m pretty sure the email they sent out contained the information about the inventory that would have been loaded on August 1 being postponed until August 2.  I know I read it somewhere. Pretty sure it was in the email they sent out.



It wasn't noted on the email I got (see below).  I understand it was on the one that went out to Marriott owners.







Dear valued Owner,

I am reaching out to share a renewed commitment to your future ownership experience. The last two years have been challenging, and if we’ve learned anything, it’s that our Owners want to go on vacation and continue to spend time with those who matter most.

*Service Enhancements*
As you know, ownership is not only about the place you vacation but also about the service you receive. Most recently, we have worked diligently to bring our Marriott Vacation Club®, Sheraton® Vacation Club, and Westin® Vacation Club products together to give Owners even more options. To support these efforts, a series of digital enhancements are needed to integrate the website and mobile app that Owners use. The goal is to deliver a better online experience, making it easier for you to search, book, and manage your vacations.

These enhancements will require periodic technology and systems upgrades, some of which may result in outages and downtimes. As part of this modernization effort, steps are also being taken to combine online upgrades more efficiently, reducing the impact on you and other Owners.

We are proactively sharing this with you and ask for your patience during this time. In the coming weeks, you will notice updates on scheduled maintenance and outages on the Owner website and app you use to help keep you better informed.

*With Gratitude*
We are excited to bring our premium vacation club brands together and improve service to valued Owners like you. Your ownership and vacation experiences are about to get even better.

Thank you for your continued ownership. We look forward to sharing more detailed information with you.

To More Vacation Possibilities,

Ron Essig
*Senior Vice President, Global Owner Services
Marriott Vacations Worldwide*












You have received this transactional message as part of your vacation ownership. Please do not reply directly to this system-generated email. *Contact Vistana Signature Experiences, Inc.online* or at 9002 San Marco Court, Orlando, Florida 32819.

©2022 Marriott Vacation Club International. All Rights Reserved. Marriott Vacation Club International and the programs and products provided under the Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club brands are not owned, developed, or sold by Marriott International, Inc. Marriott Vacation Club International uses the Marriott marks under license from Marriott International, Inc. and its affiliates.

*Privacy Statement* | *Terms & Conditions* | 10549 | 20A | 22-103-1618563


----------



## sunski

Yeah, the service outage notes are different on the marriott and vistana websites.  Marriott's has the note about weeks inventory being released on 8/2.  I think it may be because inventory opens for booking via vistana at midnight and marriott is 9am Eastern time zone


----------



## sunski

Sorry I'm not understanding 100% but I do believe the gold status was granted prior to DC, just like Vistana was automatic lifetime gold with Westin back in the day, for anyone who owned (but maybe only direct purchases?).  When they merged the two programs you got whichever status was higher in either of your accounts, so if you were Silver in both you would be Silver in Bonvoy, but if you were lifetime gold in one you were lifetime gold in Bonvoy.  That was my understanding.  I got a boost after DC to platinum. 
OTOH, I recently used owner services to help answer some questions about an upcoming reservation and they already had my marriott bonvoy account info and linked it to the reservations  I never gave this to Vistana, so I assumed that the two systems must have already been linked.  I'm assuming that I will get elite night credits for these reservations. So if you have had many nights at Vistana perhaps they are giving you credit for those stays.  But seems that should be reflected in your nights count as well, so who knows why the change in status. I don't think it has anything to do with the points value of your mandatory weeks though because I would also have a bump in status from adding the points value of my mandatory week and I don't see that reflected in my Bonvoy account. At least not yet...


----------



## kozykritter

daviator said:


> I’m pretty sure the email they sent out contained the information about the inventory that would have been loaded on August 1 being postponed until August 2.  I know I read it somewhere. Pretty sure it was in the email they sent out.


Never mind. Someone already answered what I had typed here as a reply


----------



## daviator

Now the Vistana website notice has been updated to:

THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE

Your Owner website and reservation systems have been offline for scheduled system updates since 12:30 a.m. Eastern Time on August 1, 2022. While we anticipated the website would be unavailable for approximately 15 hours, the process is taking longer than expected. We encourage you to return tomorrow to conduct any business online.


----------



## kozykritter

Marriott website has the same message, as you might guess.


----------



## Henry M.

Duplicate information deleted.


----------



## timsi

kozykritter said:


> They said approximately 15 hours. It's tough to give exact time on a big IT transition because you don't know exactly where the problems will crop up until you actually do it, no matter how much planning or guessing you do up front.


If they are now at the stage of trying to fix issues they did not foresee, they are in deep trouble. In any case, something is really not going according to the plan. It may take few more hours or a LOT more.


----------



## pchung6

timsi said:


> If they are now at the stage of trying to fix issues they did not foresee, they are in deep trouble. In any case, something is really not going according to the plan. It may take few more hours or a LOT more.


We all know what will happen. These workers finally got the chance to poke back to management, why they will work hard and help for a project like that? They will just do what they are told to do and hoping bad thing to happen to screw management.


----------



## VacationForever

Vistana system is up and there is no difference from before.  MVC site is still down.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Ha....Nothing to see here after 3 years and 15 hours.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

pchung6 said:


> We all know what will happen. These workers finally got the chance to poke back to management, why they will work hard and help for a project like that? They will just do what they are told to do and hoping bad thing to happen to screw management.


You have a very cynical view of the IT Profession who in general strive to help keep the world turning (not literally of course).


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

CalGalTraveler said:


> Ha....Nothing to see here after 3 years and 15 hours.


They never said there would be anything to see. At our recent update we were told they were working on a 'new' web experience but it wouldn't be launched until some time after the new program was launched. I guess the work today was backend/database updates/integration.


----------



## GraceH

Marriott site is now up and running.  Only noticed subtle change in DP booking UI, namely the order in which the vacation clubs are listed is different from before.  Haven’t spent enough time on the site to notice other differences.


----------



## pchung6

The new Vistana site is up now. It looks the same as before, but the background infrastructure probably is updated. I also made a reservation using SO points for next April Eastern week, and I didn't notice any different as before. We will see how it goes from here.


----------



## Eric B

Noticed one difference - on the page listing what I own, the entries for 2 resale Lagunamar weeks now says yes for VSN member and lists the appropriate SOs.  The account balances still shows the number of days, though, so it's just a little bit of an odd display issue rather than actually putting them in the VSN.  We'll see what happens with that.


----------



## timsi

Eric B said:


> Noticed one difference - on the page listing what I own, the entries for 2 resale Lagunamar weeks now says yes for VSN member and lists the appropriate SOs.  The account balances still shows the number of days, though, so it's just a little bit of an odd display issue rather than actually putting them in the VSN.  We'll see what happens with that.


My Lagunamar resale still mention VSN no.


----------



## pathways25

I am still not able to log in.  After I enter my login credentials, the browser sits there for awhile, then I get the "We're sorry" page.  I am not able to access any of the password protected areas of vistana.com including the villa finder.  Is anyone else having this problem?


----------



## remowidget

...


pathways25 said:


> I am still not able to log in.  After I enter my login credentials, the browser sits there for awhile, then I get the "We're sorry" page.  I am not able to access any of the password protected areas of vistana.com including the villa finder.  Is anyone else having this problem?


Try deleting your history and cookies.


----------



## VacationForever

marriottvacationclub.com is down again when you try to login.

update: it is up again.

update: it is down again.

update: it is up again.  

The system is very unstable at the moment.


----------



## sharr7

GonetoMaui said:


> I was chatting with the manager of the sales team about the roll out date when we made our appointment and also the website being down on 8/1, and he told me that he had received an envelope yesterday from management with instructions to "Open on August 2nd".


Any way to find out what was in the envelope now? haha


----------



## pathways25

I've spent an hour on the phone with Vistana (so far).  Apparently my account is the only one in this condition as they are able to access the accounts of other users, but not mine.  They have to file a ticket with IT and I have no ETA for how long my account will be inaccessible.


----------



## kozykritter

Mine will not display my upcoming reservation. It has a message saying they can't load my ownership vacations and please try again later. It's been this way since the system came back online last night. Just have one Vistana reservation out there and it is via an Explorer package for SBP (from 2019!) so perhaps that is the challenged part of this, if no one else is experiencing the same issue.


----------



## echino

One of my resale voluntary weeks now shows VSN:YES and the number of StarOptions (but no StarOptions actually available), but my other weeks at the same resort still show VSN:NO.


----------



## jabberwocky

If they are starting to enroll voluntary resale weeks in VSN with this update we may want to keep it under the radar. Just sayin’.


----------



## jabberwocky

The only change I have noticed is my SVR Cascades unit now shows as being a fixed week 51, rather than being fixed-float as before.


----------



## VacationForever

jabberwocky said:


> The only change I have noticed is my SVR Cascades unit now shows as being a fixed week 51, rather than being fixed-float as before.


Click on "what I own", it should still show "floating" under villa label.


----------



## Eric B

jabberwocky said:


> If they are starting to enroll voluntary resale weeks in VSN with this update we may want to keep it under the radar. Just sayin’.



Roger that; I don't think that's what happened to mine because they still show up as weeks on the balances page.  I think @echino has the same thing on his based on the "no StarOptions actually available" comment.



kozykritter said:


> Mine will not display my upcoming reservation. It has a message saying they can't load my ownership vacations and please try again later. It's been this way since the system came back online last night. Just have one Vistana reservation out there and it is via an Explorer package for SBP (from 2019!) so perhaps that is the challenged part of this, if no one else is experiencing the same issue.



Did it show up before?  When I did one earlier this year it was never listed in my Vistana account.


----------



## jabberwocky

VacationForever said:


> Click on "what I own", it should still show "floating" under villa label.


Yes. It shows as a floating unit number (which is correct) But I don’t think the week number showed as being fixed week 51 previously?


----------



## VacationForever

jabberwocky said:


> Yes. It shows as a floating unit number (which is correct) But I don’t think the week number showed as being fixed week 51 previously?


That change took place several months ago on the What I own.


----------



## jabberwocky

VacationForever said:


> That change took place several months ago on the What I own.


Okay. - I haven’t looked at it for a long time. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## kozykritter

Eric B said:


> Roger that; I don't think that's what happened to mine because they still show up as weeks on the balances page.  I think @echino has the same thing on his based on the "no StarOptions actually available" comment.
> 
> 
> 
> Did it show up before?  When I did one earlier this year it was never listed in my Vistana account.


Now that you mention it, my Explorer reservation logically wouldn't show up in Vistana, of course. Duh!. Still shows in Bonvoy. Please disregard ;-P


----------



## kozykritter

One thing I noticed last night is I could see my StarOption balance all the way out to 2025. Could you always see the current year and 3 years out? My brain tells me that it was a shorter period before but it's been wrong many times.


----------



## samcar1

mine is out until 2025.  However, they added incorrectly.  I have 380,700 for 2024, but for 2025 they added incorrectly and only notated 200,700.  That's strange.  Glad i caught that


----------



## SandyPGravel

kozykritter said:


> One thing I noticed last night is I could see my StarOption balance all the way out to 2025. Could you always see the current year and 3 years out? My brain tells me that it was a shorter period before but it's been wrong many times.


Yes I remember seeing the balances out for several years.


----------



## dioxide45

samcar1 said:


> mine is out until 2025.  However, they added incorrectly.  I have 380,700 for 2024, but for 2025 they added incorrectly and only notated 200,700.  That's strange.  Glad i caught that


In past years, the furthest out year has always been bungled up when they first add it. Ours shows 0 StarOptions right now for 2025.


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> I doubt it. I would expect all inventory to be available to all Abound members at the same time.



Well, technically Vistana can book at midnight ET. MVC opens inventory at 9an ET. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> We’ll, technically Vistana can book at midnight ET. MVC opens inventory at 9an ET.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right now, yes. At least when looking at StarOptions vs DC Club Points. But I suspect with a single website for Abound, all Abound Club Point point reservations will be available at the same time.


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> Right now, yes. At least when looking at StarOptions vs DC Club Points. But I suspect with a single website for Abound, all Abound Club Point point reservations will be available at the same time.



You think this will apply to Vistana home resort reservations? Including unenrolled weeks?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## pointsjunkie

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> Yes. Knowing their history (and working in IT) I took that to mean somewhere between 5 and 25 hours.


I own Marriott  and Vistana units and have 2 different apps with different log in and account numbers. Went on both and they are still separate and seems like there is no changes.

will they be giving us one account numberand will there only be 1 app that says Abound?


----------



## daviator

pointsjunkie said:


> I own Marriott  and Vistana units and have 2 different apps with different log in and account numbers. Went on both and they are still separate and seems like there is no changes.
> 
> will they be giving us one account numberand will there only be 1 app that says Abound?


I don't think anybody knows, but I suspect you will always have two account numbers.  But maybe I'm wrong... in any case, there will always be different rules and programs for using the Vistana and MVC ownerships, but if you elect to assign them all to Abound, then I think they'll work pretty much the same, except that the Vistana properties can't be reserved 13 months in advance.  But assigning Vistana properties to Abound is probably not the best use of those ownerships, especially since you already own in the Marriott program and so you have access to all their properties through that ownership.  You will lose some value by exchanging your Vistana properties for Abound points.

Maybe there will be a way to "link" your Marriott and Vistana ownerships so that you get the elite benefits of your combined ownership.


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> You think this will apply to Vistana home resort reservations? Including unenrolled weeks?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Abound point reservations will likely go by the current DC Point inventory release dates (13 month on Tues, 12 months on Fri). I would think Vistana weeks and StartOptions would retain their current inventory release dates.


----------



## dsmrp

I logged in today, and don't see anything different on my reservations or on what I own.


----------



## dioxide45

I notice we are not receiving confirmation emails for new reservations on Vistana.com. Has anyone made a reservation today? Did you get an email confirmation?


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

dioxide45 said:


> I notice we are not receiving confirmation emails for new reservations on Vistana.com. Has anyone made a reservation today? Did you get an email confirmation?


Not the same I know but I changed the name on a reservation today and got the confirmation email.


----------



## samcar1

Ok here’s another one.  The website seemed to have dropped me from 4* to 3*.  That can’t be possible.  I have 470k options.


----------



## pchung6

dioxide45 said:


> I notice we are not receiving confirmation emails for new reservations on Vistana.com. Has anyone made a reservation today? Did you get an email confirmation?


I made a reservation shortly after system backs up. I received email confirmation. Everything went through smoothly.


----------



## regatta333

samcar1 said:


> Ok here’s another one.  The website seemed to have dropped me from 4* to 3*.  That can’t be possible.  I have 470k options.



Where on the website do you see your elite status?


----------



## samcar1

Dashboard.  
I emailed my guy.  IT issues.  Be on top of your stuff guys.  It’s gonna take a bit.


----------



## dioxide45

samcar1 said:


> Ok here’s another one.  The website seemed to have dropped me from 4* to 3*.  That can’t be possible.  I have 470k options.


There is a separate thread on this topic;








						Elite Status Change
					

Did anyone else have their Elite Status change?  I went from 4 Star to 3 Star after the website update.  Thanks    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




					tugbbs.com


----------



## samcar1

Thank you.


----------



## pointsjunkie

Have they posted on our site what our units would convert to In Marriott vacation ownership points?


----------



## dioxide45

pointsjunkie said:


> Have they posted on our site what our units would convert to In Marriott vacation ownership points?


Not anywhere that I can find.


----------



## samcar1

im on the phon with them now.  This woman is telling me end of summer.  I thought someone said August 8?  I think no one at Vistana has a clue.


----------



## remowidget

samcar1 said:


> im on the phon with them now.  This woman is telling me end of summer.  I thought someone said August 8?  I think no one at Vistana has a clue.


Marriott may not know. They have to get everything working before they go live. Well hopefully that is their plan. Lol


----------



## kozykritter

Like Dioxide has said, one gets the sense that this recent planned outage was likely a migration in the background to a magnitude which required taking the websites offline. It seems likely this migration was building the platform for them to launch and make visible to owners all the forthcoming changes when the moment arrives. When that moment arrives is anyone's guess but those that were betting it was happening at the end of this planned outage lost that bet


----------



## dioxide45

I would expect if they are planning a new front end website (we know they are), they are probably (or should be) creating that in parallel to the existing site we all use. Then they go live they will just change the DNS pointers and we will go to the new site when accessing their existing website domains. A switch to the new site should be a flip of the switch and only require a couple hours of downtime. That said, this is Marriott Vacations IT we are talking about here.


----------



## r1lee

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> Not the same I know but I changed the name on a reservation today and got the confirmation email.



I've been trying to get them to send me my confirmation on my explorer reservation. They last told me that they never send thay out, even though I have proof from previous explorer stays.


----------



## daviator

r1lee said:


> I've been trying to get them to send me my confirmation on my explorer reservation. They last told me that they never send thay out, even though I have proof from previous explorer stays.


The Explorer reservations and confirmations come from a whole different department, not connected to owner services. Have you tried calling the number you called to make the explorer reservation?  Those are the people who should be able to help you with it.

Let me look, maybe I can find it.

Try 877-782-7018.


----------



## samcar1

i pounded them about it and finally received. confirmation


----------



## dioxide45

dioxide45 said:


> I notice we are not receiving confirmation emails for new reservations on Vistana.com. Has anyone made a reservation today? Did you get an email confirmation?


I received a confirmation after I went back in and resent it.


----------



## echino

Nice work updating the website, now I see that waiting 15+ hours was worth it:


----------



## CKMason

remowidget said:


> Marriott may not know. They have to get everything working before they go live. Well hopefully that is their plan. Lol


I don't know how accurate this is, but we met with the Marriott salesperson at Shadow Ridge on July 31, and she said that our 177,000 Westin Flex contract [actually 2 totaling 177,000 Star Options] would translate into 6,100 MVCI Destination Club points. [29 StarOptions to 1 DC point]. She also claimed that the 177,000 StarOptions were "worth" $80,000--but didn't tell us who might buy them at that price.


----------



## kozykritter

CKMason said:


> I don't know how accurate this is, but we met with the Marriott salesperson at Shadow Ridge on July 31, and she said that our 177,000 Westin Flex contract [actually 2 totaling 177,000 Star Options] would translate into 6,100 MVCI Destination Club points. [29 StarOptions to 1 DC point]. She also claimed that the 177,000 StarOptions were "worth" $80,000--but didn't tell us who might buy them at that price.


Did you buy the Westin Flex outright for cash/financing or did you also trade in weeks as equity towards it? If you traded weeks, they could be quoting you all the equity from the weeks you traded in plus any additional amount you paid.  In my case, their sheet said I paid $49K for my 140,000 Sheraton Flex contract but I only paid $12K myself - the rest came from equity from original purchasers of the resale weeks I turned in (for which I had paid about $2K). My smaller 20,700 contract was valued at the $7K I paid with no trade-ins.


----------



## CKMason

kozykritter said:


> Did you buy the Westin Flex outright for cash/financing or did you also trade in weeks as equity towards it? If you traded weeks, they could be quoting you all the equity from the weeks you traded in plus any additional amount you paid.  In my case, their sheet said I paid $49K for my 140,000 Sheraton Flex contract but I only paid $12K myself - the rest came from equity from original purchasers of the resale weeks I turned in (for which I had paid about $2K). My smaller 20,700 contract was valued at the $7K I paid with no trade-ins.


Yes, we didn't pay anywhere near the $80,000 quote. We traded in weeks and then paid cash for the remainder. I am not sure how the salesperson figured the translation between StarOptions and Marriott DC points. I just know it was better than the translation that a recent Vistana salesperson tried to sell us (33 StarOptions to 1 Marriott CD point). Right now, it is a moot point as we probably will not try to use our StarOptions for MVCI resorts.


----------



## DanCali

HARBORSIDE DC POINT ALLOCATION *(PURE SPECULATION)*

Perhaps someone got a concrete number from a salesperson, but I haven't seen it so I apologize if the (actual) info is already available.

Realizing these won't be included in Abound for some time, I used the chart posted by @kozykritter for points required to book HRA at various points during the year to try and guess how many points the HRA units will be allocated in Platinum and Gold seasons.

Methodology:

(1) Match the Vistana seasons with the Marriott booking chart (I may be off by 1 week here and there)
(2) Find the average points required to book a week in the Vistana season
(3) Haircut 7% (aka "skim")

This methodology is generally gets you very close to the actual point allocation by Marriott for various Marriott legacy weeks and also for WKV.

The results were as follows:

*PLATINUM Season SPECULATED point allocation*

Small 1BRLarge 1BR2BR2BR Lockoff3BR2,122 DC Points2,711 DC Points3,861 DC Points4,428 DC Points5,261 DC Points

*GOLD Season SPECULATED point allocation*

Small 1BRLarge 1BR2BR2BR Lockoff3BR1,507 DC Points1,997 DC Points2,802 DC Points3,292 DC Points3,882 DC Points

At first, I found it extremely odd that they did not have a point premium for 4th of July week in the Gold Season (week 26) , as there is a large rental premium. But then I looked up some of their FL coastal weeks (Ocean Pointe, Oceana Palms, Crystal Shores) which are basically the same weather, and saw they also don't have a premium point booking requirement for the 4th of July weeks at those resorts either.

Here is the spreadsheet with the numbers, in case someone wants to try and do this for another resort/season.


----------



## alexadeparis

DanCali said:


> HARBORSIDE DC POINT ALLOCATION *(PURE SPECULATION)*
> 
> Perhaps someone got a concrete number from a salesperson, but I haven't seen it so I apologize if the info is already available.
> 
> Realizing these won't be included in Abound for some time, I used the chart posted by @kozykritter for points required to book HRA at various points during the year to try and guess how many points the HRA units will be allocated in Platinum and Gold seasons.
> 
> Methodology:
> 
> (1) Match the Vistana seasons with the Marriott booking chart (I may be off by 1 week here and there)
> (2) Find the average points required to book a week in the Vistana season
> (3) Haircut 7% (aka "skim")
> 
> This methodology is generally gets you very close to the actual point allocation by Marriott for various Marriott legacy weeks and also for WKV.
> 
> The results were as follows:
> 
> *PLATINUM Season SPECULATED point allocation*
> 
> Small 1BRLarge 1BR2BR2BR Lockoff3BR2,122 DC Points2,711 DC Points3,861 DC Points4,428 DC Points5,261 DC Points
> 
> *GOLD Season SPECULATED point allocation*
> 
> Small 1BRLarge 1BR2BR2BR Lockoff3BR1,507 DC Points1,997 DC Points2,802 DC Points3,292 DC Points3,882 DC Points
> 
> At first, I found it extremely odd that they did not have a point premium for 4th of July week in the Gold Season (week 26) , as there is a large rental premium. But then I looked up some of their FL coastal weeks (Ocean Pointe, Oceana Palms, Crystal Shores) which are basically the same weather, and saw they also don't have a premium point booking requirement for the 4th of July weeks at those resorts either.
> 
> Here is the spreadsheet with the numbers, in case someone wants to try and do this for another resort/season.
> 
> View attachment 61906


Thank you for your hard work on this. Let’s hope it’s close to this if they do work out the issues that are preventing this from being included in the initial launch.


----------



## DanCali

alexadeparis said:


> Thank you for your hard work on this. Let’s hope it’s close to this if they do work out the issues that are preventing this from being included in the initial launch.



I do have a vested interest in this, as I own in both seasons  

These numbers are still low compared to week rental values in these seasons (assuming a point can be rented for about $0.70), especially Gold summer season. They really should have bumped up the points booking requirements for mid-June to mid-August, (weeks 24-32) to reflect actual demand.


----------



## r1lee

daviator said:


> The Explorer reservations and confirmations come from a whole different department, not connected to owner services. Have you tried calling the number you called to make the explorer reservation?  Those are the people who should be able to help you with it.
> 
> Let me look, maybe I can find it.
> 
> Try 877-782-7018.



No I called the explorer side, they were the ones that told me they never send it out, which is untrue.


----------



## alexadeparis

DanCali said:


> I do have a vested interest in this, as I own in both seasons
> 
> These numbers are still low compared to week rental values in these seasons (assuming a point can be rented for about $0.70), especially Gold summer season. They really should have bumped up the points booking requirements for mid-June to mid-August, (weeks 24-32) to reflect actual demand.


If the plat L/O does bring 4400 or more AND my unqualified resale Bella can enroll, that just MIGHT put me at Presidential.


----------



## GregT

DanCali said:


> HARBORSIDE DC POINT ALLOCATION *(PURE SPECULATION)*
> 
> Perhaps someone got a concrete number from a salesperson, but I haven't seen it so I apologize if the (actual) info is already available.
> 
> Realizing these won't be included in Abound for some time, I used the chart posted by @kozykritter for points required to book HRA at various points during the year to try and guess how many points the HRA units will be allocated in Platinum and Gold seasons.
> 
> Methodology:
> 
> (1) Match the Vistana seasons with the Marriott booking chart (I may be off by 1 week here and there)
> (2) Find the average points required to book a week in the Vistana season
> (3) Haircut 7% (aka "skim")
> 
> This methodology is generally gets you very close to the actual point allocation by Marriott for various Marriott legacy weeks and also for WKV.
> 
> The results were as follows:
> 
> *PLATINUM Season SPECULATED point allocation*
> 
> Small 1BRLarge 1BR2BR2BR Lockoff3BR2,122 DC Points2,711 DC Points3,861 DC Points4,428 DC Points5,261 DC Points
> 
> *GOLD Season SPECULATED point allocation*
> 
> Small 1BRLarge 1BR2BR2BR Lockoff3BR1,507 DC Points1,997 DC Points2,802 DC Points3,292 DC Points3,882 DC Points
> 
> At first, I found it extremely odd that they did not have a point premium for 4th of July week in the Gold Season (week 26) , as there is a large rental premium. But then I looked up some of their FL coastal weeks (Ocean Pointe, Oceana Palms, Crystal Shores) which are basically the same weather, and saw they also don't have a premium point booking requirement for the 4th of July weeks at those resorts either.
> 
> Here is the spreadsheet with the numbers, in case someone wants to try and do this for another resort/season.
> 
> View attachment 61906


Thanks for doing this Dan, and your logic makes sense.

We did see other properties where Marriott disregarded the silver/gold/platinum and came up with their own point allocation based on their perceived demand. I think I remember summer at Harborside is unusually low from a star options perspective, so we may see higher summer pricing than your point shot. However I definitely agree with the approach and think it will be in this ZIP Code.

Best,

Greg

Edited: my message had many typos -- I was dictating, not drinking.


----------



## DanCali

GregT said:


> Thanks for doing this Dan, and your logic makes sense.
> 
> We did see other properties where Marriott disregard of the silver gold platinum and came up with their own point allocation based on their perceive demand. I think I remember summer and Harborside is unusually low power star options perspective, so we may see Heier summer pricing than your point shot. However I definitely agree with the approach and think it will be in this ZIP Code.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



I did a bunch of this type of reverse engineering when the program launched in 2010. I do believe it's pretty much how they do it, give or take 1-2% on the skim.

Here is the same methodology applied to WKV Platinum season.

The actual allocation is 2150 for the small1BR, and 4050 for the 2BR lockoff. I believe we're definitely in the same zip code on this one as the calculation is off by less than 5 DC points.


----------



## VacationForever

DanCali said:


> I did a bunch of this type of reverse engineering when the program launched in 2010. I do believe it's pretty much how they do it give or take 1-2% on the skim.
> 
> Here is the same methodology applied to WKV Platinum season.
> 
> The actual allocation is 2150 for the small1BR, and 4050 for the 2BR lockoff. I believe we're definitely in the same zip code on this one as the calculation is off by less than 5 DC points.
> 
> View attachment 61946


From your analysis, i.e. reverse engineering, is skim really only 1 to 2% as opposed to the widely held belief of 7 to 8%?


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> From your analysis, i.e. reverse engineering, is skim really only 1 to 2% as opposed to the widely held belief of 7 to 8%?


As I understand, it is give or take 1-2% on the skim. The skim is still 7%, but that number could be off +/- 1-2%.


----------



## DanCali

VacationForever said:


> From your analysis, i.e. reverse engineering, is skim really only 1 to 2% as opposed to the widely held belief of 7 to 8%?




No - I was assuming 7% skim. What I meant is that the analysis can be off by an extra 1-2% on the skim (so the skim varies around 5%-9%).

But if you correctly match the weeks to the points required to book them (sometimes it's easy to make a mistake if points jump at the start or end of the deeded season and you accidentally match the wrong week) then 6%-7% seems like a solid assumption.

A couple of other examples for Marriott Fixed Event weeks at Newport Coast Villas:

NCV week 26 (4th of July): points required to book are 5675 and point allocation is 5300 (6.6% skim)
NCV week 52 (New Year): points required to book are 4950 and point allocation is 4625 (6.6% skim)


----------



## daviator

Someone on FB posted photos of a Westin Vacation Club kit they just received by FedEx that contains Westin-branded wrist bands (the sort that MVC uses in their resorts, which double as room keys and are necessary to charge purchases to the room.)  To my knowledge, Vistana has never used the RFID wristbands before.  Supposedly they are being sent to all owners (or maybe just elite owners) and are color coded to your elite level.

Personally, I would probably never wear one of these bulky, uncomfortable wristbands.  I’m happy to carry my key.  And I’m not really interested in advertising my elite status to everyone around me, so I find the color coding to be kind of tacky.  But I guess if reports are true, these may be coming out way, at least for some of us.  I assume it’s fine to stick with key cards for those of us who prefer them.

It's also possible that these are going to new purchasers and not to a broader group.  I definitely haven’t received one.


----------



## Red elephant

daviator said:


> Someone on FB posted photos of a Westin Vacation Club kit they just received by FedEx that contains Westin-branded wrist bands (the sort that MVC uses in their resorts, which double as room keys and are necessary to charge purchases to the room.)  To my knowledge, Vistana has never used the RFID wristbands before.  Supposedly they are being sent to all owners (or maybe just elite owners) and are color coded to your elite level.
> 
> Personally, I would probably never wear one of these bulky, uncomfortable wristbands.  I’m happy to carry my key.  And I’m not really interested in advertising my elite status to everyone around me, so I find the color coding to be kind of tacky.  But I guess if reports are true, these may be coming out way, at least for some of us.  I assume it’s fine to stick with key cards for those of us who prefer them.
> 
> It's also possible that these are going to new purchasers and not to a broader group.  I definitely haven’t received one.


SBP has those wristbands. They gave me two there and you can use it to open the gate as well.  It’s not that bulky and not that noticeable as it’s grey. Matter of fact a lot of resorts have them. Got one at JW Crystal Shores too.


----------



## alexadeparis

daviator said:


> Someone on FB posted photos of a Westin Vacation Club kit they just received by FedEx that contains Westin-branded wrist bands (the sort that MVC uses in their resorts, which double as room keys and are necessary to charge purchases to the room.)  To my knowledge, Vistana has never used the RFID wristbands before.  Supposedly they are being sent to all owners (or maybe just elite owners) and are color coded to your elite level.
> 
> Personally, I would probably never wear one of these bulky, uncomfortable wristbands.  I’m happy to carry my key.  And I’m not really interested in advertising my elite status to everyone around me, so I find the color coding to be kind of tacky.  But I guess if reports are true, these may be coming out way, at least for some of us.  I assume it’s fine to stick with key cards for those of us who prefer them.
> 
> It's also possible that these are going to new purchasers and not to a broader group.  I definitely haven’t received one.


they have had reusable Westin bands for years. You can buy it at the resort, they don't tell you it's reusable, but it is. I just take it home and bring it to the next Westin and have them key it to the room with the same machine they make the keys on. I use one for my husband who has dementia so i know he always has his key - but it doesn't help him remember his room number. They aren't as giant as this one pictured in the kit.


----------



## dioxide45

Thes wristbands look different than the ones at the resorts (Marriott and Vistana) now. The ones at the resorts are a single rubber loop, those pictured here look more like they fasten like a watch or Disney Magicband.

We had issues getting our previously purchased Westin wristbands programmed at Westin Kierland Villas a couple weeks ago. They simply wouldn't program where they programmed last year. I wonder if the computer system switchover made earlier this year made those old bands not able to be programed. Has anyone used old band recently and did you have issues getting them programmed at checkin? I thought they might just switch them out for new ones, but got the impression they expected me to buy more.


----------



## daviator

Interesting, in 20 years of travel to Vistana resorts (mostly Maui and California, but I’ve been to many of the others too) I’ve never been offered or made aware of wristbands.  I’ve only seen them at some of the Marriott properties.  Heard lots of stories about how they are supposed to work across properties but often don’t.

I get why some would like them, they’d be great for kids who’d otherwise lose the cards, etc.  But I would just want to put it in my pocket where it would be much bulkier and more annoying.


----------



## sharr7

If there's actually a delay until Fall, I don't think it'll be due to IT issues...From MVW 2Q earnings report:

*Second Quarter 2022 Highlights:*

Consolidated Vacation Ownership contract sales were $506 million, a 40% increase compared to the second quarter of 2021, and VPG increased 7% to $4,613.
They're making a killing on all the lies about Abound, they probably realized they can make more money making empty promises than actually selling people on the new program. Bet the sales staffs are begging for delays. But hey maybe I'm just too skeptical and it'll launch tomorrow. There's an investor call tomorrow AM



			https://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/news-releases/news-release-details/marriott-vacations-worldwide-mvw-reports-second-quarter-2022


----------



## kozykritter

sharr7 said:


> If there's actually a delay until Fall, I don't think it'll be due to IT issues...From MVW 2Q earnings report:
> 
> *Second Quarter 2022 Highlights:*
> 
> Consolidated Vacation Ownership contract sales were $506 million, a 40% increase compared to the second quarter of 2021, and VPG increased 7% to $4,613.
> They're making a killing on all the lies about Abound, they probably realized they can make more money making empty promises than actually selling people on the new program. Bet the sales staffs are begging for delays. But hey maybe I'm just too skeptical and it'll launch tomorrow. There's an investor call tomorrow AM
> 
> 
> 
> https://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/news-releases/news-release-details/marriott-vacations-worldwide-mvw-reports-second-quarter-2022


Interesting. After reading the stuff that you linked, I feel like some of their words could be misleading to investors. They state that they have "introduced" Marriott by Abound during the quarter but without clarification it sounds like they actually implemented it rather than just told people it was coming.

Here's another tidbit:

"In connection with the launch of Abound by Marriott Vacations and the unification of the Company's Marriott-, Westin-, and Sheraton-branded vacation ownership products, the Company intends to align its revenue recognition on the sale of vacation ownership interests across all of its brands in the third quarter."

I guess you could read it as they are launching Abound in the third quarter though that requires some interpretation backwards from the fact that they're reporting combined income from all three programs in this next (current) quarter.

I suppose tomorrow's investor presentation will clarify some of this but it doesn't help people that are just reading these results IMHO.


----------



## jabberwocky

kozykritter said:


> Here's another tidbit:
> 
> "In connection with the launch of Abound by Marriott Vacations and the unification of the Company's Marriott-, Westin-, and Sheraton-branded vacation ownership products, the Company intends to align its revenue recognition on the sale of vacation ownership interests across all of its brands in the third quarter."
> 
> I guess you could read it as they are launching Abound in the third quarter though that requires some interpretation backwards from the fact that they're reporting combined income from all three programs in this next (current) quarter.


I wouldn’t read to much into the revenue recognition piece. They are already reporting the combined income in their consolidated statements.

It may be that they have slightly different recognition policies for when they recognize the revenue for sales and are looking to harmonize them across the company for those brands in Abound. With them now using the MVC sales platforms (as appears to be the case) this makes sense.


----------



## dioxide45

Could revenue was also be up because of the disposition of the Puerto Vallarta property? Or would we have to wait until formal closing. I see they are also only comparing contract sales to 2021 Q2 numbers and not pre pandemic. We must also realize that they have Welk in the mix now too which ads to contract sales when compared to 2021.


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> Could revenue was also be up because of the disposition of the Puerto Vallarta property? Or would we have to wait until formal closing. I see they are also only comparing contract sales to 2021 Q2 numbers and not pre pandemic. We must also realize that they have Welk in the mix now too which ads to contract sales when compared to 2021.


I imagine revenue was way down in 2020 – who was buying timeshares during the height of the pandemic lockdowns and restrictions?  So I’m thinking that 2021 is partly a rebound after a bad year, plus all the “you need to buy now to take advantage of the merger that’s coming” sales tactics.  There has been a lot of FOMO and uncertainty and I think their sales capitalizes on both of those. 

PV sale just closed, i think, so that would be recognized in 2022 I think.  Might be reported separately as it’s more extraordinary event than routine sales.

Welk is undoubtedly a factor in increased sales.


----------



## jabberwocky

daviator said:


> PV sale just closed, i think, so that would be recognized in 2022 I think.  Might be reported separately as it’s more extraordinary event than routine sales.


The PV sale will be reported as a gain or loss on sale, net of any taxes and will be reported in the period when the transaction closes. It’s not included in the revenue at all.


----------



## sharr7

dioxide45 said:


> Could revenue was also be up because of the disposition of the Puerto Vallarta property? Or would we have to wait until formal closing. I see they are also only comparing contract sales to 2021 Q2 numbers and not pre pandemic. We must also realize that they have Welk in the mix now too which ads to contract sales when compared to 2021.


This made me curious enough to look.

Q2 Contract Sales:
2018: $205M
2019: $350M
2020: $30M (ouch)
2021: $362M
2022: $506M

Q2 VPG (volume per guest):
2019: $3,299
2021: $4,304
2022: $4,613

I think that's per guest "update" - no wonder they offer you $100 or more - you're worth almost $5k to them.


----------



## kozykritter

Listening to the earnings presentation. It's basically a long session of MVW execs patting themselves on the back...I guess I shouldn't be surprised 

What has surprised me is that in their responses to earnings questions, they keep presenting Abound as though the integration has been fully launched. They are saying things like Westin and Sheraton owners have direct booking access to MVC and are on equal footing to MVC owners in that respect now yet we know differently. I was so tempted to get into the question queue and ask them if Abound has actually launched! But they only took five questions, all from from people they clearly already knew (a total boys club) so I guess not.


----------



## sharr7

kozykritter said:


> Listening to the earnings presentation. It's basically a long session of MVW execs patting themselves on the back...I guess I shouldn't be surprised
> 
> What has surprised me is in their responses to earnings questions, they keep presenting Abound as though the integration has been fully launched. They are saying things like Westin and Sheraton owners have direct booking access to MVC and are on equal footing to MVC owners in that respect now yet we know differently. I was so tempted to get into the question queue and ask them if Abound has actually launched! But they only took five questions, all from from people they clearly already knew (a total boys club) so I guess not.


I caught the end and also thought it was weird when they got a question about the impacts of the integration how the response was basically "it's still early but we're liking what we're seeing" instead of "we haven't actually launched it yet." Guess you can say whatever you want even to the large banks heavily invested in your company who get to ask questions on the call.


----------



## kozykritter

Another thing that might interest people is they don't expect to add any additional inventory over the next couple of years except from buybacks/ROFR and from the Waikiki Pulse (no date given for its completion). This means no buildouts planned during that time for places like SBP and WDW that have the established future building sites on their maps and actually on the ground. Not a surprise given what we know.

So in the end they provided no information about when Abound will launch. Given that the website popup from June (that said it was coming later this summer and to watch for more info in the coming weeks) is gone and have been replaced this week on the MVC website with a message from Ron Essig, SVP Owner Srvcs ("We are excited to bring the Marriott Vacation Club®, Sheraton® Vacation Club, and Westin® Vacation Club products together in the coming *months")*, I think we can start looking at an October/November launch as more realistic. I'm going to make my 2023 plans from that assumption.


----------



## samcar1

I’m still hearing today.  I guess we will see.


----------



## JimT

Called Customer Service for both Vistana and Marriott.  Customer Service is not allowed to share any information - all calls Re: "Abound" are referred to sales.  Can not transfer to sales, only can put in a request for sales to call you and it may take several days for sales to get back to you.  Very disappointing they are telling the investors program is fully launched but will not permit customer service to talk about it.  Hope others have a better experience.

As an example customer service could not tell me conversion rates or the new deadline dates for next year.

Received a call from an agent - she could not answer any questions - was only able to schedule a 90 minute virtual presentation by a sales rep.  So currently they will only answer questions about Marriott Abound and our accounts in a 90 minute sales presentation.

As background - from 2Q22 Investor call on 8/9/2022:

".... we launched vacation next a multi-year journey beginning with the introduction of Abound by Marriott Vacations, which unifies our Marriott branded vacation ownership products. Through this new program, Marriott, Westin and Sheraton owners now have direct access to more than 90 branded resorts around the world using a common points currency. The vacation next journey will continue to leverage our investment in technology for enhanced digital experience, while transforming our marketing sales and service for owners and the next-generation of travelers.

We began pre-marketing the unified product at our Marriott, Westin and Sheraton sales centers at the end of March. And I'm happy to say that as of today, the majority of our sales centers have started selling our newly unified product. While still early in the process, feedback from owners has been very positive."


----------



## wjarcher

I recently got to see something in writing about the Vistana election rules for the new program, please take it with a grain of salt because Marriott can still decide to tweak it before the new program launches.

* The election for the 2023 usage will start in October and last until the end of the year; My guess is that deadlines in future years will be in line with the existing MVC club members.

* Two types of ownerships are eligible: either ownership directly purchased from the developer or ownership that is enrolled in VSN when the program becomes effective.  Specifically, unauthorized resale weeks (I interpret this as unrequaled resale mandatory weeks) that are enrolled in VSN as of 8/9 will be eligible. Anything after will require extra purchase to be eligible.  It seems that Marriott considers 08/09 is the "effective" date for the new program, which also coincides their most-recent earning call.


----------



## DanCali

wjarcher said:


> I recently got to see something in writing about the Vistana election rules for the new program, please take it with a grain of salt because Marriott can still decide to tweak it before the new program launches.
> 
> * The election for the 2023 usage will start in October and last until the end of the year; My guess is that deadlines in future years will be in line with the existing MVC club members.
> 
> * Two types of ownerships are eligible: either ownership directly purchased from the developer or ownership that is enrolled in VSN when the program becomes effective.  Specifically, unauthorized resale weeks (I interpret this as unrequaled resale mandatory weeks) that are enrolled in VSN as of 8/9 will be eligible. Anything after will require extra purchase to be eligible.  It seems that Marriott considers 08/09 is the "effective" date for the new program, which also coincides their most-recent earning call.




This is indeed valuable insight that will probably make many people on these board happy!


----------



## dioxide45

wjarcher said:


> I recently got to see something in writing about the Vistana election rules for the new program, please take it with a grain of salt because Marriott can still decide to tweak it before the new program launches.
> 
> * The election for the 2023 usage will start in October and last until the end of the year; My guess is that deadlines in future years will be in line with the existing MVC club members.
> 
> * Two types of ownerships are eligible: either ownership directly purchased from the developer or ownership that is enrolled in VSN when the program becomes effective.  Specifically, unauthorized resale weeks (I interpret this as unrequaled resale mandatory weeks) that are enrolled in VSN as of 8/9 will be eligible. Anything after will require extra purchase to be eligible.  It seems that Marriott considers 08/09 is the "effective" date for the new program, which also coincides their most-recent earning call.


If accurate, I wonder if they will change that 8/9 date to whatever other date becomes their actual rollout date to owners.


----------



## Red elephant

wjarcher said:


> I recently got to see something in writing about the Vistana election rules for the new program, please take it with a grain of salt because Marriott can still decide to tweak it before the new program launches.
> 
> * The election for the 2023 usage will start in October and last until the end of the year; My guess is that deadlines in future years will be in line with the existing MVC club members.
> 
> * Two types of ownerships are eligible: either ownership directly purchased from the developer or ownership that is enrolled in VSN when the program becomes effective.  Specifically, unauthorized resale weeks (I interpret this as unrequaled resale mandatory weeks) that are enrolled in VSN as of 8/9 will be eligible. Anything after will require extra purchase to be eligible.  It seems that Marriott considers 08/09 is the "effective" date for the new program, which also coincides their most-recent earning call.


This is indeed interesting . WKV is mandatory but the allocated abound points does not make it worth it. Same with SVV . The WORKV is the only mandatory resort that is worth converting to abound and that’s the one Marriott wants so it makes sense to allow mandatory resorts to be able to convert to abound.


----------



## kozykritter

wjarcher said:


> I recently got to see something in writing about the Vistana election rules for the new program, please take it with a grain of salt because Marriott can still decide to tweak it before the new program launches.
> 
> * The election for the 2023 usage will start in October and last until the end of the year; My guess is that deadlines in future years will be in line with the existing MVC club members.
> 
> * Two types of ownerships are eligible: either ownership directly purchased from the developer or ownership that is enrolled in VSN when the program becomes effective.  Specifically, unauthorized resale weeks (I interpret this as unrequaled resale mandatory weeks) that are enrolled in VSN as of 8/9 will be eligible. Anything after will require extra purchase to be eligible.  It seems that Marriott considers 08/09 is the "effective" date for the new program, which also coincides their most-recent earning call.


In writing from whom? In what context was this document created? As we know from this thread, sales offices present all kinds of materials purporting to be the truth about what will happen and yet on the whole, several of these things contradict each other. I think I have PTSD from all of it


----------



## pacman777

dioxide45 said:


> If accurate, I wonder if they will change that 8/9 date to whatever other date becomes their actual rollout date to owners.



interesting. There was a period when Westin Kierland 148.1k we’re getting snatched up earlier this year. Wonder if insiders knew about that. It seems to have cooled with pricing back around $15k for resales. If the window is still open to be qualified for Abound then those will be the best resales to buy now


----------



## Eric B

Seems to me that there is decent value for the non-WKORV ownerships for being enrollment eligible to be able to rent points with the associated status even without the favorable MF per point basis — could open new opportunities without a concomitant MF obligation in the out years.


----------



## DanCali

Eric B said:


> Seems to me that there is decent value for the non-WKORV ownerships for being enrollment eligible to be able to rent points with the associated status even without the favorable MF per point basis — could open new opportunities without a concomitant MF obligation in the out years.



The MFs are an annual obligation you pay no matter what under every usage alternative. So, it becomes irrelevant in comparing alternate uses in cases you don't occupy your VOI.

Renting out your week is an alternate use to electing points. So an Owner's decision to elect DC points should not be based on the MF/Points ratio but on the Rent/Points ratio and it should be compared to the cost of renting DC points from others (about $0.68).

WKV 2BR Plat Election value is 4050 DC Points
WKV 2BR Plat MF is about $1725 --> $0.43/point
WKV 2BR Plat rental value about $4500 --> $1.11/point

If you compare $0.43 to the $0.68 cost to rent points, you may be tempted to elect 4050 DC points. But why elect 4050 DC points worth $0.68 apiece if you can rent out your week (worth only 4050 points) at $1.11/point? Take the $4500 rental income, rent 4050 points from someone else, and keep $1700 in your pocket.

But being able to enroll WKV weeks, or any mandatory week, and then rent points from others opens up many new opportunities even to those who don't plan to ever elect points for their weeks.


----------



## Eric B

DanCali said:


> The MFs are an annual obligation you pay no matter what under every usage alternative. So, it becomes irrelevant in comparing alternate uses in cases you don't occupy your VOI.
> 
> Renting out your week is an alternate use to electing points. So an Owner's decision to elect DC points should not be based on the MF/Points ratio but on the Rent/Points ratio and it should be compared to the cost of renting DC points from others (about $0.68).
> 
> WKV 2BR Plat Election value is 4050 DC Points
> WKV 2BR Plat MF is about $1725 --> $0.43/point
> WKV 2BR Plat rental value about $4500 --> $1.11/point
> 
> If you compare $0.43 to the $0.68 cost to rent points, you may be tempted to elect 4050 DC points. But why elect 4050 DC points worth $0.68 apiece if you can rent out your week (worth only 4050 points) at $1.11/point? Take the $4500 rental income, rent 4050 points from someone else, and keep $1700 in your pocket.
> 
> But being able to enroll WKV weeks, or any mandatory week, and then rent points from others opens up many new opportunities even to those who don't plan to ever elect points for their weeks.



Think we’re aligned on that — I can rent my WSJ weeks out for more than the DC value, SVV is probably better in VSN, but I look forward to enrolling what I own for the simplified fee structure and the ability to rent additional points at a lower cost, if it works out that way, for any Marriott stays that are desirable.


----------



## Jayco29D

These are probably some naive questions. Why do people buy into a timeshare program to explicitly rent out their timeshare? Doesn’t that turn a vacation program into a business rather than something to enjoy?


----------



## byeloe

Jayco29D said:


> These are probably some naive questions. Why do people buy into a timeshare program to explicitly rent out their timeshare? Doesn’t that turn a vacation program into a business rather than something to enjoy?


To vacation for free


----------



## Red elephant

Jayco29D said:


> These are probably some naive questions. Why do people buy into a timeshare program to explicitly rent out their timeshare? Doesn’t that turn a vacation program into a business rather than something to enjoy?


My thoughts exactly . The comparisons should be based on the best uses of the timeshare but it seems like most here compare rental values vs values of using the timeshare effectively. It does help to know how you can rent your timeshare if you don’t use it.


----------



## Eric B

Red elephant said:


> My thoughts exactly . The comparisons should be based on the best uses of the timeshare but it seems like most here compare rental values vs values of using the timeshare effectively. It does help to know how you can rent your timeshare if you don’t use it.



Different folks have different metrics to judge what the best uses are.  Mine include replacement costs for use of a week by renting in or out, including associated advertising, commissions, etc.  There are many instances where I come out ahead renting out a property I own (not just timeshares) rather than using all the rights I own myself.  YMMV.


----------



## dioxide45

The truth is, Tuggers are far different than the average timeshare owner. Most Vistana owners will simply continue to use SOs unless they see a better value converting to Abound points. If a Vistana owner wants to go to a Marriott resort, the average user of the program is most likely to elect points and just book the Marriott resort. Not everyone wants the hassle, risk and extra expense of renting. Even if renting makes more sense.

I have seen it mentioned that with renting you can vacation for free. It kind of makes sense in that if you have two weeks at the same resort and you can rent one week out for double the MFs, then you use the rental proceeds to pay both fees. Thus you are vacationing for free. You could though use that money for something else and consider that free. Or you could do some other side hustle to make anough money to pay your MFs and then consider you are traveling for free. In the end it is just semantics...


----------



## Red elephant

Eric B said:


> Different folks have different metrics to judge what the best uses are.  Mine include replacement costs for use of a week by renting in or out, including associated advertising, commissions, etc.  There are many instances where I come out ahead renting out a property I own (not just timeshares) rather than using all the rights I own myself.  YMMV.


you are quite right. The folks that are new to Tugg are still trying to learn the different ways to use and purchase timeshares. So it’s nice to read different perspectives on usage besides just renting to make more money or save money although who does not want that.


----------



## jabberwocky

wjarcher said:


> I recently got to see something in writing about the Vistana election rules for the new program, please take it with a grain of salt because Marriott can still decide to tweak it before the new program launches.
> 
> * The election for the 2023 usage will start in October and last until the end of the year; My guess is that deadlines in future years will be in line with the existing MVC club members.
> 
> * Two types of ownerships are eligible: either ownership directly purchased from the developer or ownership that is enrolled in VSN when the program becomes effective.  Specifically, unauthorized resale weeks (I interpret this as unrequaled resale mandatory weeks) that are enrolled in VSN as of 8/9 will be eligible. Anything after will require extra purchase to be eligible.  It seems that Marriott considers 08/09 is the "effective" date for the new program, which also coincides their most-recent earning call.


This is consistent with what I’ve been told/shown with respect to our mandatory resale that is “unauthorized” and the total number of Abound points we are supposed to have.


----------



## wjarcher

kozykritter said:


> In writing from whom? In what context was this document created? As we know from this thread, sales offices present all kinds of materials purporting to be the truth about what will happen and yet on the whole, several of these things contradict each other. I think I have PTSD from all of it



I don't see a scenario the sales guy would gain anything by sharing such information with me when I actually own 5 WKOVR/N resale weeks and they could ask me to spend more to requal them.  As I said, take the information as a grain of salt.  It is too late to act on it anyway.


----------



## kozykritter

wjarcher said:


> I don't see a scenario the sales guy would gain anything by sharing such information with me when I actually own 5 WKOVR/N resale weeks and they could ask me to spend more to requal them.  As I said, take the information as a grain of salt.  It is too late to act on it anyway.


True but you didn't answer my question


----------



## DanCali

Jayco29D said:


> These are probably some naive questions. Why do people buy into a timeshare program to explicitly rent out their timeshare? Doesn’t that turn a vacation program into a business rather than something to enjoy?




It's not buying into the program to rent. Renting is a legitimate use and can help maximize the value of your ownership if you treat it as such.

To me, there are 3 different uses for a timeshare in a given usage year:

(1) Use where you own and book as home resort in a given year (not much explaining needed for this), or
(2) I don't have to vacation that year, so I will just book a desired week and rent it out, or
(3) I want to exchange to a different location. There are multiple ways to do it and they are not all equivalent. Some of these options can involve also rental transactions where you rent out your week and rent a week or Abound points from someone else.

Regarding Option (2) it's pretty straightforward but many VSN owners will now have a new option available - you can elect Abound points and rent those points out at around $0.68/point. This is just the approximate going rate and may be affected by supply and demand. If you own at a place with generous point allocation (like Maui), this can now be a pretty attractive option to those VSN owners. Rather than try to book a high demand week at 12 months out, advertise your week, deal with inquiries, contracts and the risk associated with renting a week - just transfer the points and you are done. 8200 DC points for a Maui OF week will easily get the owner over $5500 that way, which may even beat the rental value of the week. An OV or IV week can get the owner around $4200 this way, which may be slightly shy of the rental value of the week but is much easier to do.

If I wanted to exchange to a different location using 4050 DC points (Option (3) above), then as a WKV owner, I'd rather rent out my week as week and be on the other side of that DC point transaction, renting DC points from others. Then I can use those points to book where I want to go. By employing this type of strategy (take the $4500+ rental income, rent 4050 points from someone else, and keep $1700+ in my pocket) I can save $1700 per 2BR Platinum lockoff, which is basically the full cost of my MFs. Yes, just electing 4050 DC points for my week is easier, but the cost of that convenience is too high for my taste. I do have some enrolled Marriott weeks that I am happy to elect points for because the math there works more similar to the SVN Maui weeks.


----------



## Jayco29D

In reading through TUG, I see that many people own way more timeshares that they could ever use in a year. I assume these people have little choice but to rent to cover their costs. I really do not understand why people buy more than they can use unless they consider renting timeshares to be a part time job. But who wants a part time job of renting timeshares? I don’t understand why anyone would do this. Why not keep life simple and use timeshares for vacationing? I understand if someone can‘t use a week or points in an average year and they want to cover MFs rather than lose their week/points. This makes perfect sense. I sort of understand why someone might end up making the rental of timeshares into a side gig on purpose (although this seems rather risky unless they stay on top of each week and it also seems like a strange job). But people who are in between? Why do they buy much more than they can use?


----------



## DanCali

Jayco29D said:


> But people who are in between? Why do they buy much more than they can use?



Perhaps wishful retirement planning?


----------



## remowidget

Jayco29D said:


> In reading through TUG, I see that many people own way more timeshares that they could ever use in a year.


I think most of the people in this boat on the Tug have purchased them through resale at a low cost. 

I've met several people who have more than they can use and still buy more at retail. They just have a lot of money and convert what they don't use to points to stay in hotels. They don't really care about value the way people on the Tug do.

Last year, I talked quite a bit with a couple who were using their ownership for the first time to stay in a villa. They had been Five star owners for well over a decade. They had always converted their time to points and stayed in hotels on business travel. They were on the verge of retiring and trying to decide what to do with the timeshares. They also owned 5 or 6 properties in desirable places in the US and Europe. They rented them out on VRBO when they weren't there. 

Another 5 star guy I met used most of his time for hotels for his employees thinking he would use his time in villas when he retired.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Jayco29D said:


> These are probably some naive questions. Why do people buy into a timeshare program to explicitly rent out their timeshare? Doesn’t that turn a vacation program into a business rather than something to enjoy?



To help offset our high MFs.
For example - we rent out our WKORV OFD studio side (~$2800 of ~$3500 total) to lower the cost of the OFD 1Bd side to ~$100/nt.
(hard to beat)

Rentability (for MF and higher) is a key decision when buying a resale Vistana interval.  Our WKV Plat VOIs have paid for themselves.

Sorry - just realized this is tangential to the OP.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## samcar1

Question. I’ve rented on redweek a few times with luck. I have 2 weeks (separate) to rent next year at steamboat but no bites yet. I’m Sure they will be but I’d love to know if there are other places I can also try and rent my weeks.
I also have been reading a lot about selling options, How would that work?  Thank you


----------



## teddyo333

We own quite a few timeshares. They were purchased because we plan to stay in these places to esacpe the harsh winters in the northeast when we retire.  We rent most of them now to offset the cost of our vacations each year.  For example, the retail costs of our annual vacations can be as high as $36K but with the rentals it's closer to $3,600.


----------



## samcar1

I’ve rented in redweek. I’m just looking for other places to advertise.


----------



## DavidnRobin

samcar1 said:


> I’ve rented in redweek. I’m just looking for other places to advertise.



Sorry. Only rent on RedWeek (since 2008?)
I have excellent success with them for our extra weeks, but only have 2-3 depending if we use the SOs for exchanging (Maui).
Already rented 2023 usage.

TUG has a rental page. Never worked for me.

Price fairly (true FMV)
Describe correctly - many don’t.

I use RedWeek verify services now because it gives the person renting more confidence. IMO YMMV


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## samcar1

DavidnRobin said:


> Sorry. Only rent on RedWeek (since 2008?)
> I have excellent success with them for our extra weeks, but only have 2-3 depending if we use the SOs for exchanging (Maui).
> Already rented 2023 usage.
> 
> TUG has a rental page. Never worked for me.
> 
> Price fairly (true FMV)
> Describe correctly - many don’t.
> 
> I use RedWeek verify services now because it gives the person renting more confidence. IMO YMMV
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yes it’s worked for me.  I’ll just wait and post on tug too. Thank you


----------



## dioxide45

samcar1 said:


> I’ve rented in redweek. I’m just looking for other places to advertise.


Some others use Airbnb or Go-Koala. They charge nothing upfront but take a higher commission on the back end. THe good thing there is that if it doesn't rent, you aren't out any money like you would be on a listing fee with Redweek.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

Did Redweek just change their policy on reporting rental income to the IRS? They said it was down to a recent change in the thresholds allowed. Due to the language barrier between our two nations I'll claim not to understand it all if the IRS comes after me for past years


----------



## VacationForever

IRS requires all these vendors, Redweek, Paypal, etc to report amount exceeding $600 over a calendar year.  I don't know what you meant by Redweek changing their policy.


----------



## tamu_bu

Basic MVC Points question from one who only owns Vistana. If I elect to convert to VC points am I required to reserve days as they are defined in their chart. For example (Frenchman's Reef attached) do I have to reserve a full week, Fri-Sat, or Sun-Thu? Or can I reserve day a 6 day Sun-Fri at the full week total less the Sat. points?


----------



## dioxide45

tamu_bu said:


> Basic MVC Points question from one who only owns Vistana. If I elect to convert to VC points am I required to reserve days as they are defined in their chart. For example (Frenchman's Reef attached) do I have to reserve a full week, Fri-Sat, or Sun-Thu? Or can I reserve day a 6 day Sun-Fri at the full week total less the Sat. points?


YOu can reserve as many or as few nights as you want based on the nightly points rate provided in the chart.


----------



## kozykritter

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> Did Redweek just change their policy on reporting rental income to the IRS? They said it was down to a recent change in the thresholds allowed. Due to the language barrier between our two nations I'll claim not to understand it all if the IRS comes after me for past years


The change primarily has to do with digital wallet transactions or basically cash apps. There was always a $600 threshold requirement for rental income reporting. However none of the cash apps had this requirement because the digital wallet reporting threshold was $20,000 a year for any type of income. Bear in mind you are meant to report on your tax return any amount of income, of course, regardless of whether it was reported on a 1099 or not. Here's part of an article to explain the threshold change...

"Beginning in 2022, the IRS will start checking digital wallet business transactions over $600. New federal tax laws are designed to make it more difficult for small business owners and self-employed people to avoid paying taxes. If you receive over $600 in income this year on Venmo, Zelle, or PayPal, you will receive a Form 1099-K that you must fill out and file with your taxes next year.

The new changes in how cash app business transactions are reported are included in the *American Rescue Plan Act*, signed into law by Congress in 2021. Reporting guidelines for digital wallets and other third-party payment processors have now dropped to just $600 in aggregate payments."

Redweek likely uses a third-party payment processor hence the change.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

kozykritter said:


> The change primarily has to do with digital wallet transactions or basically cash apps. There was always a $600 threshold requirement for rental income reporting. However none of the cash apps had this requirement because the digital wallet reporting threshold was $20,000 a year for any type of income. Bear in mind you owe tax on any amount of income, of course, regardless of whether it was reported on a 1099 or not. Here's part of an article to explain the threshold change...
> 
> "Beginning in 2022, the IRS will start checking digital wallet business transactions over $600. New federal tax laws are designed to make it more difficult for small business owners and self-employed people to avoid paying taxes. If you receive over $600 in income this year on Venmo, Zelle, or PayPal, you will receive a Form 1099-K that you must fill out and file with your taxes next year.
> 
> The new changes in how cash app business transactions are reported are included in the *American Rescue Plan Act*, signed into law by Congress in 2021. Reporting guidelines for digital wallets and other third-party payment processors have now dropped to just $600 in aggregate payments."
> 
> Redweek likely uses a third-party payment processor hence the change.


So will the same apply if you rent your DC points at 0.68c/point? Does that result in a cash transaction that is taxable?


----------



## kozykritter

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> So will the same apply if you rent your DC points at 0.68c/point? Does that result in a cash transaction that is taxable?


It depends if you turn a profit. You'll have to consult a tax professional for official tax advice.


----------



## kozykritter

tamu_bu said:


> Basic MVC Points question from one who only owns Vistana. If I elect to convert to VC points am I required to reserve days as they are defined in their chart. For example (Frenchman's Reef attached) do I have to reserve a full week, Fri-Sat, or Sun-Thu? Or can I reserve day a 6 day Sun-Fri at the full week total less the Sat. points?


Points reservations can be made starting any day of the week for any length of time up to a maximum number of days per reservation (14?). Charts have to start with some day of the week so Marriott chooses Friday for all of their points charts. It's not significant or impactful for making a check-in date.


----------



## daviator

kozykritter said:


> "Beginning in 2022, the IRS will start checking digital wallet business transactions over $600. New federal tax laws are designed to make it more difficult for small business owners and self-employed people to avoid paying taxes. If you receive over $600 in income this year on Venmo, Zelle, or PayPal, you will receive a Form 1099-K that you must fill out and file with your taxes next year.



All true, except that it’s my understanding that Zelle transfers do NOT fall under the new regulation and that Zelle will not be issuing 1099-K forms to anyone.  They have statements to this effect on their website.


----------



## samcar1

If I have for instance, 100k options, I can rent them ???
How??


----------



## DanCali

samcar1 said:


> If I have for instance, 100k options, I can rent them ???
> How??



Staroptions cannot be directly transferred to another owner”s account. There is no mechanism to do that. 

DC/Abound points (that have not been banked or transferred already) can be transferred to another owners account via a call to Owner Services. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KS2beach

regatta333 said:


> Where on the website do you see your elite status?


same, I Have never seen our status level -hahaha guessing we are to low.


----------



## Mowogo

Abound just became real, and the VSN will now only shrink. Vistana properties have been added to the Marriott trust








						Recorded Trust Documents
					

It's Official - Marriott adding Sheraton & Westin weeks to the MVC Trust!  I haven't looked at them all, but Marriott made a big conveyance on August 15th to the MVC Trust. @GregT  Westin Mission Hills  Sheraton Vistana Villages - St Augustine  Westin Princeville




					tugbbs.com


----------



## daviator

Mowogo said:


> Abound just became real, and the VSN will now only shrink. Vistana properties have been added to the Marriott trust
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Recorded Trust Documents
> 
> 
> It's Official - Marriott adding Sheraton & Westin weeks to the MVC Trust!  I haven't looked at them all, but Marriott made a big conveyance on August 15th to the MVC Trust. @GregT  Westin Mission Hills  Sheraton Vistana Villages - St Augustine  Westin Princeville
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com


Don't oversell the "VSN will shrink" line.  While that's likely to be true, it is also true that for every Vistana VOI that's conveyed to the Marriott trust, there will be one fewer VOI in competition to reserve within VSN.  Unless VSN became very small, which is pretty unlikely and would require tens or even hundreds of thousands of VOI owners to convey their weeks back to MVC, VSN members are unlikely to notice any difference.

A more likely possibility would be if so many VSN owners routinely elect to convert to Abound points every year that the VSN inventory shrunk a lot.  But I think even that is unlikely, as most owners will see a lot more value by sticking to VSN except when they have a specific desire to travel to MVC properties.


----------



## TravelTime

byeloe said:


> To vacation for free



I vacation for free all the time. I just make my money outside of renting timeshares!


----------



## byeloe

TravelTime said:


> I vacation for free all the time. I just make my money outside of renting timeshares!


fair enough
I make money other places as well, but I work a lot harder for that.  Renting is an easy way to subsidize vacations that I would otherwise not be able to take


----------



## jabberwocky

daviator said:


> Don't oversell the "VSN will shrink" line.  While that's likely to be true, it is also true that for every Vistana VOI that's conveyed to the Marriott trust, there will be one fewer VOI in competition to reserve within VSN.  Unless VSN became very small, which is pretty unlikely and would require tens or even hundreds of thousands of VOI owners to convey their weeks back to MVC, VSN members are unlikely to notice any difference.
> 
> A more likely possibility would be if so many VSN owners routinely elect to convert to Abound points every year that the VSN inventory shrunk a lot.  But I think even that is unlikely, as most owners will see a lot more value by sticking to VSN except when they have a specific desire to travel to MVC properties.


Remember that mandatory resorts have to be part of VSN - so I imagine that even if the MVC trust is the owner they would have SO values attached.

That said, I’m not sure how many of those weeks would make it to the 8 month mark. I imagine MVC will manage the inventory pretty well.


----------



## Eric B

jabberwocky said:


> Remember that mandatory resorts have to be part of VSN - so I imagine that even if the MVC trust is the owner they would have SO values attached.
> 
> That said, I’m not sure how many of those weeks would make it to the 8 month mark. I imagine MVC will manage the inventory pretty well.



If you think about it, the voluntary resorts added to the MVC trust are being acquired from the developer and can also have SO values attached and can probably be made available to the VSN despite being owned by the trust.  MVC will have a lot of flexibility to manage the inventory as desired following their obligations to both the VSN and Abound.


----------



## jabberwocky

Eric B said:


> If you think about it, the voluntary resorts added to the MVC trust are being acquired from the developer and can also have SO values attached and can probably be made available to the VSN despite being owned by the trust.  MVC will have a lot of flexibility to manage the inventory as desired following their obligations to both the VSN and Abound.


True. I never thought about it that way.

I wonder if the trust would try picking up Maui inventory via SO from their owned voluntary deeds at 8 months and then trying to make available at the higher Abound owners pricing?


----------



## dioxide45

*Something else to chew on**.* Looks to be the master agreement that brings it all together.


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> *Something else to chew on**.* Looks to be the master agreement that brings it all together.


Nice find.  Too bad there's no detail as to the specifics of the agreement... what is recorded is pretty vague, all the resorts and owner's associations agree that they want to be part of MVC's multi-resort scheme.  But it's interesting to see that it was just filed a couple of days ago.


----------



## Eric B

Recital F looks like it would make mandatory resale owners members of the MVCD exchange.


----------



## kozykritter

Eric B said:


> Recital F looks like it would make mandatory resale owners members of the MVCD exchange.


But if you read it that way, all VSN-eligible resales aka mandatory in the future would be part of the exchange as well because they didn't put any date in there as a criteria. That seems highly unlikely given Marriott's history with resales after 2010/DC creation.

Also membership in the MVC Exchange doesn't necessarily mean that every VOI that member owns will be eligible to participate in Abound. They could still make the distinction between qualified and unqualified resales in their Master agreement to come. This provision may actually have more to do with synching up the club dues between the programs so that Abound participants only have to pay one fee per year, not one each to VSN and MVCD. So many details left out!


----------



## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> Recital F looks like it would make mandatory resale owners members of the MVCD exchange.


It also indicates "one or more parties".


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> It also indicates "one or more parties".


Near the top, the document defines "the Parties" as those people on the signature pages so doesn't involve any owners directly in that referenced consent process.


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> It also indicates "one or more parties".





kozykritter said:


> Near the top, the document defines "the Parties" as those people on the signature pages so doesn't involve any owners directly in that consent process.



It’s outside of my area of expertise and I’m not licensed to practice law in Florida, but as a layman I would read the portion of Recital F for consent of the defined Parties being satisfied by Recital G and the expression of consent in item 2 executed by the defined Parties in the document.  There’s no doubt more to it as far as details are concerned based on the master affiliation agreement, but this reads to me as though VSN members are being treated on par with existing MVCD members.

It will be interesting to see the master affiliation agreement and whether they’ve come up with a way to keep mandatory resale owners out for purchases after the effective date or if they’ll just impose high garbage fees on transfers similar to what I’ve read about trust points.  It’s not too surprising that the sales folks haven’t shared any details if they have them.


----------



## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> It’s outside of my area of expertise and I’m not licensed to practice law in Florida, but as a layman I would read the portion of Recital F for consent of the defined Parties being satisfied by Recital G and the expression of consent in item 2 executed by the defined Parties in the document.  There’s no doubt more to it as far as details are concerned based on the master affiliation agreement, but this reads to me as though VSN members are being treated on par with existing MVCD members.
> 
> It will be interesting to see the master affiliation agreement and whether they’ve come up with a way to keep mandatory resale owners out for purchases after the effective date or if they’ll just impose high garbage fees on transfers similar to what I’ve read about trust points.  It’s not too surprising that the sales folks haven’t shared any details if they have them.


I am not sure they can pile on garbage fees to weeks based transfers. I think the $25 fee is baked into most CC&R documents for the resort.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I believe they want the Vistana inventory so additional junk fees would deter owners away.


----------



## grrrah

Apologies if I missed it in the 120+ pages, but has there been any info re us that use Home Options (Nanea for me, presumably similar to Flex) on if we would need to deposit a whole week, or if we would be able to do partial weeks, equivelent of smaller units, etc?


----------



## dioxide45

grrrah said:


> Apologies if I missed it in the 120+ pages, but has there been any info re us that use Home Options (Nanea for me, presumably similar to Flex) on if we would need to deposit a whole week, or if we would be able to do partial weeks, equivalent of smaller units, etc?


Nothing 100% confirmed, but we suspect you would have to elect Abound points for the entire VOI. You don't own a week with HomeOptions. Another good reason to have multiple small contracts instead of one large one.


----------



## jabberwocky

grrrah said:


> Apologies if I missed it in the 120+ pages, but has there been any info re us that use Home Options (Nanea for me, presumably similar to Flex) on if we would need to deposit a whole week, or if we would be able to do partial weeks, equivelent of smaller units, etc?


Our understanding is that the full VOI must be deposited. You can’t do a partial.


----------



## kozykritter

Based upon previous presentations, Westin and Sheraton Flex likely can do partials due to their unique nature versus Home Options from one resort. We'll see what the truth is in the end.


----------



## Helios

jabberwocky said:


> Our understanding is that the full VOI must be deposited. You can’t do a partial.


This is correct, other than partial SOs because those are points packages.


----------



## Helios

From a reliable source, 8/9 was the magic date to be in network/eligible to participate in Abound.  Requals will follow Marriott rules - min $40K new money.


----------



## Helios

Mandatory VOIs that were not requalified before 8/9 are not Abound eligible.  They stay mandatory in the Vistana “program” (i.e., same use as per Abound).


----------



## Helios

VSN Elite is no more.  New Abound system:  3* Executive, 4* = Presidential, 5* = Chairman.  No plans for a higher tier even if someone owns way more than 15K Abound Club Points.


----------



## dioxide45

Helios said:


> From a reliable source,


I wonder what the definition of a "reliable source" is? At this point I don't think any one source is more reliable than any other, especially when it comes from sales. They all seem to have their own interpretation of any training they may or may not have taken.


----------



## kozykritter

Helios said:


> Mandatory VOIs that were not requalified before 8/9 are not Abound eligible.  They stay mandatory in the Vistana “program” (i.e., same use as per Abound).


All that you are saying fits with the Marriott philosophy on resales and make sense. The challenge is we've heard many competing versions from different sources so I think all of us are jaded enough by it to say until it's in writing and the thing is launched, we can't rely on any of it


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> All that you are saying fits with the Marriott philosophy on resales and make sense. The challenge is we've heard many competing versions from different sources so I think all of us are jaded to say until it's in writing and the thing is launched, we can't rely on any of it


Not really. When Marriott rolled out the DC program in 2010, they allowed resales to enroll. They only have a negative view toward resales bought after program implementation.


----------



## Helios

dioxide45 said:


> I wonder what the definition of a "reliable source" is? At this point I don't think any one source is more reliable than any other, especially when it comes from sales. They all seem to have their own interpretation of any training they may or may not have taken.


Direct Sales. I trust the source.


----------



## Helios

kozykritter said:


> All that you are saying fits with the Marriott philosophy on resales and make sense. The challenge is we've heard many competing versions from different sources so I think all of us are jaded enough by it to say until it's in writing and the thing is launched, we can't rely on any of it


Agreed.  Time will tell.


----------



## dioxide45

Helios said:


> Direct Sales. I trust the source.


Fair enough, but I do find it interesting that everyone trusts their source but these different sources seem to provide conflicting information. One person's misinformed source isn't necessarily any better than that of another. The statement of "reliable source" doesn't make it any more reliable to anyone else here. Not attacking you or the source, just pointing out that we can't really rely on anything until we see it in writing and distributed on the grand scale.


----------



## Helios

dioxide45 said:


> Not really. When Marriott rolled out the DC program in 2010, they allowed resales to enroll. They only have a negative view toward resales bought after program implementation.


But, the magic 6/10/2010 date (or whatever that is exactly) is still enforced for the most part. There are workarounds but for the most part you have to pay $s…


----------



## Helios

dioxide45 said:


> Fair enough, but I do find it interesting that everyone trusts their source but these different sources seem to provide conflicting information. One person's misinformed source isn't necessarily any better than that of another. The statement of "reliable source" doesn't make it any more reliable to anyone else here. Not attacking you or the source, just pointing out that we can't really rely on anything until we see it in writing and distributed on the grand scale.


Agreed.  The source did say things are not final but it looked like what was shared was holding.

I will check the Abound values I got for some of my units (not all have values available now) and let you know if the tracker needs to be updated,


----------



## dioxide45

Helios said:


> But, the magic 6/10/2010 date (or whatever that is exactly) is still enforced for the most part. There are workarounds but for the most part you have to pay $s…


But there are different dates. 6/20/2010 isn't the only one. European weeks have a date that is set to when they started to allow those owners to enroll and the same is true for Phuket owners. Phuket owners have a date in 2016. So they could simply do something similar when brining in Vistana.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> Not really. When Marriott rolled out the DC program in 2010, they allowed resales to enroll. They only have a negative view toward resales bought after program implementation.


But that was a different situation. They were trying to shift all the weeks into a trust. Vistana already has a trust and exchange system in place. Marriott's attitude towards resales in general has been to pony up large cash or don't participate. People seem to be banking on the fact that Marriott will be desperate for certain Vistana inventory so they will allow them into Abound. To me again the current situation doesn't align with the past. We'll find out soon enough which side of the fence they come down on.


----------



## jabberwocky

Helios said:


> VSN Elite is no more.  New Abound system:  3* Executive, 4* = Presidential, 5* = Chairman.  No plans for a higher tier even if someone owns way more than 15K Abound Club Points.


Funny. I just logged in and it still shows me as a 3* in Vistana?  I demand my Executive status!


----------



## jabberwocky

Helios said:


> From a reliable source, 8/9 was the magic date to be in network/eligible to participate in Abound.  Requals will follow Marriott rules - min $40K new money.





Helios said:


> Mandatory VOIs that were not requalified before 8/9 are not Abound eligible.  They stay mandatory in the Vistana “program” (i.e., same use as per Abound).


So how can it be that requals will require a minimum of $40k, but you can’t requalify into Abound?  

I think the proof that a changeover has occurred will be when they stop selling FleX and only Abound points can be bought from Vistana. If this was the case, I’m sure someone would have reported it on TUG.


----------



## Helios

jabberwocky said:


> So how can it be that requals will require a minimum of $40k, but you can’t requalify into Abound?
> 
> I think the proof that a changeover has occurred will be when they stop selling FleX and only Abound points can be bought from Vistana. If this was the case, I’m sure someone would have reported it on TUG.


The way it was presented is that if you have a unit that was not requalified on 8/9 (mandatory or non) the unit cannot participate in Abound.  However, at some point you will be able to enroll it if you buy $40K worth of Abound points.

Mandatory units will retain the mandatory unit status in the old Vistana section of the program.  So, my understanding is that they will keep the old programs (Vistana, DC, etc.) features intact and will add Abound as a new program with its own inventory.


----------



## Helios

jabberwocky said:


> Funny. I just logged in and it still shows me as a 3* in Vistana?  I demand my Executive status!


The change on the screen is coming.  We all know how IT savy they are, don’t we?


----------



## Helios

One thing I missed yesterday, the old 5* benefit to bank up to 12/31 will be gone.  It will be 10/1 moving forward.


----------



## Red elephant

Helios said:


> One thing I missed yesterday, the old 5* benefit to bank up to 12/31 will be gone.  It will be 10/1 moving forward.


But if they are keeping VSN as is why change that?


----------



## kozykritter

According to John Ruble MVW SVP Global Sales and Field Operations during a recent visit to Sheraton Steamboat, they are looking to synch up the benefits of both programs and move them towards the most generous existing policy between the two programs when they do. Allegedly he gave the example of matching Vistana's more generous banking timeframes over to MVC in some fashion as an example of what they were looking at...makes sense because to use one technology platform to administer both programs, the fewer custom (different) features, the better. Imagine the revolt on the Vistana side if they did it the other way around!  We'll see what happens in the end.


----------



## rcv82

kozykritter said:


> According to John Ruble MVW SVP Global Sales and Field Operations during a recent visit to Sheraton Steamboat, they are looking to synch up the benefits of both programs and move them towards the most generous existing policy between the two programs when they do. Allegedly he gave the example of matching Vistana's more generous banking timeframes over to MVC in some fashion as an example of what they were looking at...makes sense because to use one technology platform to administer both programs, the fewer custom (different) features, the better. Imagine the revolt on the Vistana side if they did it the other way around! We'll see what happens in the end.



This will be interesting because the elite benefits of both programs are quite different. Many of the MVC benefits seem to relate to giving the member an advantage at booking (earlier access) , while the VSE elite benefits are things like reduced fees, late checkout (as 5*, my favorite, although getting that can be hard). 

Both have later deadlines for banking. 

The way the VSE disclosures are written, I don’t see how they could provide earlier access to anything but Abound reservations. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45

rcv82 said:


> This will be interesting because the elite benefits of both programs are quite different. Many of the MVC benefits seem to relate to giving the member an advantage at booking (earlier access) , while the VSE elite benefits are things like reduced fees, late checkout (as 5*, my favorite, although getting that can be hard).
> 
> Both have later deadlines for banking.
> 
> The way the VSE disclosures are written, I don’t see how they could provide earlier access to anything but Abound reservations.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


THe Abound Owner Benefit Levels will only apply to the Abound program. Having Abound Chairman's won't give you 13 month booking in VSE and they won't change those to match up. I suspect that everything that currently exists with the 3*, 4* and 5* levels in VSN won't change. The new MVC levels only apply to Abound and nothing more.


----------



## VacationForever

rcv82 said:


> Many of the MVC benefits seem to relate to giving the member an advantage at booking (earlier access) , while the VSE elite benefits are things like reduced fees.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Currently, DC club membership gets rid of all fees - no banking fee and no II exchange fees when trading back into MVC and Vistana.  Combining both programs means that taking the best of both worlds wrt fees.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Helios said:


> The way it was presented is that if you have a unit that was not requalified on 8/9 (mandatory or non) the unit cannot participate in Abound.  However, at some point you will be able to enroll it if you buy $40K worth of Abound points.
> 
> Mandatory units will retain the mandatory unit status in the old Vistana section of the program.  So, my understanding is that they will keep the old programs (Vistana, DC, etc.) features intact and will add Abound as a new program with its own inventory.



$40k requal for Vistana inventory is not sustainable as it will deplete Abound from the best inventory as people age out and sell their enrolled VOIs. No way would any rational person pay $40k for Abound access when they paid $12k  - $30k resale to own at WKOR and N. Especially when you can pick up MVC resale deeds for under 10K or resale points for $7 pp.

The percentage of resales increase over time unless they intend to ROFR every unit. This seems to go against their desire to increase Vistana inventory in Abound. This will leave Abound with scraps of Vistana's best properties over time.

Although they would love to rid of VSN mandatory it is baked into the legal documents and next to impossible to remove so they have no choice.


----------



## ocdb8r

CalGalTraveler said:


> Although they would love to rid of VSN mandatory it is baked into the legal documents and next to impossible to remove so they have no choice.


Are we permitted to make this assertion anymore?  I understand the moderator of this forum has decided it's no longer permissible to dissent from the inside information obtained from a "Marriott Insider" and any such posts will be deleted.


----------



## jabberwocky

What is being stated in the other thread with regards to mandatory resales being initially included is consistent with what I was told in my presentation from March at SDO as well as last month. It’s also consistent with the ownership profile and why our resale WKORVN week is included in our total number of points. 

What is not consistent is that VSN will no longer exist. I was told several times (by salepeople I trust and whose information has been solid thus far) we could book with either SO and this was simply an addition to what we already owned. Abound was simply an overlay on the VSN system.

If they replace VSN with Abound, then IMO mandatory resorts would have to become part of Abound since they need to be in the club. If VSN still exists and is just an overlay, then it is possible for them to keep the resale mandatory resorts out (post 8/8) of Abound.

I still want to see the official details.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

jabberwocky said:


> What is being stated in the other thread with regards to mandatory resales being initially included is consistent with what I was told in my presentation from March at SDO as well as last month. It’s also consistent with the ownership profile and why our resale WKORVN week is included in our total number of points.
> 
> What is not consistent is that VSN will no longer exist. I was told several times (by salepeople I trust and whose information has been solid thus far) we could book with either SO and this was simply an addition to what we already owned. Abound was simply an overlay on the VSN system.
> 
> If they replace VSN with Abound, then IMO mandatory resorts would have to become part of Abound since they need to be in the club. If VSN still exists and is just an overlay, then it is possible for them to keep the resale mandatory resorts out (post 8/8) of Abound.
> 
> I still want to see the official details.



This makes sense, however I am still wondering what happens to resale mandatory buyers if they are not able to participate in Abound trading given the CC&Rs? Per the CC&Rs they are required to provide trading. Perhaps they will need to provide Abound for buyers of such deeds? or perhaps it is a free II membership enrollment as Denise is suggesting (with some SO priority and valuation tweeks).

I am going to review Abound enrollment very closely before signing up. I am glad that I have my reservation for next year set and won't need the system except to pay for MF. Can we call and pay without using the system?  I am worried about buried T&C changes.


----------



## Helios

jabberwocky said:


> What is not consistent is that VSN will no longer exist. I was told several times (by salepeople I trust and whose information has been solid thus far) we could book with either SO and this was simply an addition to what we already owned. Abound was simply an overlay on the VSN system.
> 
> If they replace VSN with Abound, then IMO mandatory resorts would have to become part of Abound since they need to be in the club. If VSN still exists and is just an overlay, then it is possible for them to keep the resale mandatory resorts out (post 8/8) of Abound.
> 
> I still want to see the official details.



Perhaps I added to the confusion, apologies.  I was told VSN would exist so will the DC system.  Deeded ownerships will continue working the way they do now.  Mandatory would keep working the same way within VSN.  Non requalified (before 8/9) mandatory  (same for non mandatory) are NOT eligible to participate in Abound without requalifying via a new Abound points package of at least $40K.


----------



## Helios

CalGalTraveler said:


> I hope they aren't trying to replace our deed with Abound trust points to circumvent mandatory resale requirements. It would seem that would require more than website T&C changes.



I don’t think they can do that without filing with the counties, etc. And we would need to sign the deed papers.


----------



## kozykritter

It's likely that the StarOption exchange function will continue to exist but happen within the Abound platform once it launches. Since Abound will contain an option to convert your Vistana ownership to DP, it makes sense to have it all within one IT platform. So in that sense VSN is being replaced with Abound but StarOptions are not being replaced with DP.


----------



## jabberwocky

Helios said:


> Perhaps I added to the confusion, apologies.  I was told VSN would exist so will the DC system.  Deeded ownerships will continue working the way they do now.  Mandatory would keep working the same way within VSN.  Non requalified (before 8/9) mandatory  (same for non mandatory) are NOT eligible to participate in Abound without requalifying via a new Abound points package of at least $40K.


I don’t blame you. I think what you’ve suggested is possible (and more probable). I can’t see them getting rid of VSN completely without risking larger customer unrest and or legal action (think of how people pushed back against guest fees on home resort reservations a few years ago. )

I do question the $40k min as the Vistana customer base has gotten used to a $15-20k additional buy in amount while also allowing for trade ins.  Marriott will be eliminating a larger portion of this customer base if they try to move up to this price point and treat them all like Marriott owners immediately.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> I don’t blame you. I think what you’ve suggested is possible (and more probable). I can’t see them getting rid of VSN completely without risking larger customer unrest and or legal action (think of how people pushed back against guest fees on home resort reservations a few years ago. )
> 
> I do question the $40k min as the Vistana customer base has gotten used to a $15-20k additional buy in amount while also allowing for trade ins.  Marriott will be eliminating a larger portion of this customer base if they try to move up to this price point and treat them all like Marriott owners immediately.


Marriott's program of $40K also only runs intermittently. It isn't always available, usually just during the spring and summer months. I think it started in April this year. I can very likely see them having to drop the points requirements significantly to get Vistana owners to enroll who were used to the $10+5K price points to re-qualify.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> It's likely that the StarOption exchange function will continue to exist but happen within the Abound platform once it launches. Since Abound will contain an option to convert your Vistana ownership to DP, it makes sense to have it all within one IT platform. So in that sense VSN is being replaced with Abound but StarOptions are not being replaced with DP.


We know they are looking to move to a single platform with what they are calling "Vacation Next". It makes sense, but HomeOptions and StarOptions there or on a different website is still VSN.


----------



## remowidget

Helios said:


> Non requalified (before 8/9) mandatory  (same for non mandatory) are NOT eligible to participate in Abound without requalifying via a new Abound points package of at least $40K.


$40k could easily be a moving target. They could make that the deal now, but offer promotions or whatever later. As an example, I remember one guy saying he qualified a bunch of Marriot weeks with a $50-60k ish Aruba purchase. I've also read that Marriott weeks have been requalified with a $15k purchase.

$40k seems a ridiculously high buy in to requalify a week. I doubt they would get many takers.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> We know they are looking to move to a single platform with what they are calling "Vacation Next". It makes sense, but HomeOptions and StarOptions there or on a different website is still VSN.


Yes, according to the earnings calls, Vacation Next is the initiative spread over several years to maximize the vacation experience from all their recent acquisitions. Creating the DP usage option and launching Abound was listed among the first steps.

The internal exchange function for StarOptions may still be called VSN. The insider was perhaps a bit zealous on their use of language about it "going away". The current interface is perhaps going away but the internal exchange feature (regardless of where it is hosted) will still exist.


----------



## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott's program of $40K also only runs intermittently. It isn't always available, usually just during the spring and summer months. I think it started in April this year. I can very likely see them having to drop the points requirements significantly to get Vistana owners to enroll who were used to the $10+5K price points to re-qualify.


So, sometimes they don't offer Marriott requalifications at all?


----------



## r1lee

Just to clarify, since I own resale svv and wkv, I won't be able to participate in abound unless I pay $40k.  

But we still have access to vsn?  That's good enough for me.


----------



## VacationForever

r1lee said:


> Just to clarify, since I own resale svv and wkv, I won't be able to participate in abound unless I pay $40k.
> 
> But we still have access to vsn?  That's good enough for me.


See this thread, you should be able to participate in Abound since you own SVV and WKV before the 8/8/22 cutoff.  No need to pay to re-qualify these weeks.









						Vistana Update from Marriott Insider
					

Please be aware:  Posts that attack this info will be deleted.  This is not the COVID Forum!  INSIDER:  I read TUG a bit, and just to clarify, Mandatory is no longer a status because VSN is dismantled. Everything is now Abound and therefore what was both mandatory and non mandatory are not in...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## jabberwocky

r1lee said:


> Just to clarify, since I own resale svv and wkv, I won't be able to participate in abound unless I pay $40k.
> 
> But we still have access to vsn?  That's good enough for me.


If your resale VOI have SO and they were with Vistana prior to 8/8/2022 they will be in Abound. You don’t have to purchase anything further.

You should still have access to VSN - whatever that looks like or what name it is given.


----------



## r1lee

VacationForever said:


> See this thread, you should be able to participate in Abound since you own SVV and WKV before the 8/8/22 cutoff.  No need to pay to re-qualify these weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vistana Update from Marriott Insider
> 
> 
> Please be aware:  Posts that attack this info will be deleted.  This is not the COVID Forum!  INSIDER:  I read TUG a bit, and just to clarify, Mandatory is no longer a status because VSN is dismantled. Everything is now Abound and therefore what was both mandatory and non mandatory are not in...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com





jabberwocky said:


> If your resale VOI have SO and they were with Vistana prior to 8/8/2022 they will be in Abound. You don’t have to purchase anything further.
> 
> You should still have access to VSN - whatever that looks like or what name it is given.




Thank you. So basically it cost nothing for most of us who bought resale.

So all this time, their sales trying to tell us that you had to buy something to get into the new program, were basically fibbing. That sucks for owners who got duped to a certain degree.


----------



## daviator

I'm not gonna believe anything until it's in writing from MVC.  While most of the stuff being posted makes sense to one degree or another, much of it is contradictory.  And it's coming from MVC sales, the same people that recently told me that I wouldn't have access to Abound unless I bought something new, even though all of my VOIs were purchased from the developer.  It's a big pile of lies, half-truths, and, buried in there somewhere, snippets of the truth.


----------



## jabberwocky

r1lee said:


> Thank you. So basically it cost nothing for most of us who bought resale.
> 
> So all this time, their sales trying to tell us that you had to buy something to get into the new program, were basically fibbing. That sucks for owners who got duped to a certain degree.





daviator said:


> I'm not gonna believe anything until it's in writing from MVC.  While most of the stuff being posted makes sense to one degree or another, much of it is contradictory.  And it's coming from MVC sales, the same people that recently told me that I wouldn't have access to Abound unless I bought something new, even though all of my VOIs were purchased from the developer.  It's a big pile of lies, half-truths, and, buried in there somewhere, snippets of the truth.


This is why I think one should always ask what the other party has to gain when they are trying to sell you something.

In our case we lucked out in March by having an honest salesperson who told us since all of our VOIs had SO they would all be in the new program. Many were unfortunate and we’ve seen examples of owner information that has had whiteout applied to make it appear as though a new purchase was required.

Really, if they did say that all of your mandatory resale would be included in abound when it launched, what incentive would you have to buy?  Many salespeople lied, and unfortunately good dollars have been wasted.  This is what gives timesharing a bad name. 

It is why I am skeptical when I hear VSN is being shut down. The implication they are hoping we draw from this is that you can only trade in Abound points, not the old SO value, so mandatory resales purchased after 8/8 could only be used as a home resort reservation. I believe they won’t be eligible for Abound, but they may very well continue to be able to exchange within the Vistana system (based on what I’ve been told by sales and what I have seen). 

 Get ready for the next wave of disinformation trying to get us to convert our SO eligible weeks into Abound points.


----------



## kozykritter

daviator said:


> I'm not gonna believe anything until it's in writing from MVC.  While most of the stuff being posted makes sense to one degree or another, much of it is contradictory.  And it's coming from MVC sales, the same people that recently told me that I wouldn't have access to Abound unless I bought something new, even though all of my VOIs were purchased from the developer.  It's a big pile of lies, half-truths, and, buried in there somewhere, snippets of the truth.


Exactly. It's like with conspiracy theories. You can take two opposing ones and work through them logically and find some kind of support for each of them. In the end you just don't know what to believe!


----------



## cubigbird

If they did away with VSN and SO right away, that would make existing owners incredibly unhappy and work against what they are ultimately wanting to accomplish — getting owners to buy more.  Upset customers don’t buy more.  Every sales presentation we’ve been to has stated that VSN internal exchange is still going to exist and if you like VSN and what you own, then you don’t have to elect playing in Abound.


----------



## DanCali

CalGalTraveler said:


> $40k requal for Vistana inventory is not sustainable as it will deplete Abound from the best inventory as people age out and sell their enrolled VOIs. No way would any rational person pay $40k for Abound access when they paid $12k  - $30k resale to own at WKOR and N. Especially when you can pick up MVC resale deeds for under 10K or resale points for $7 pp.



Plenty of rational people (even informed ones who read and post on TUG) would pay $40K+, especially if they own multiple resale weeks. Here are two schools of thought on the same transaction...

*Example:* Say you own 2 WKORV OV weeks you bought for $15K each ($30K total) and the MFs on each of those weeks are around $2800/year. They are not eligible to enroll but would each have a value of 6200 points if enrolled. You get an offer to buy 3000 points at $40K and enroll both resale weeks (the MFs on the points around $2000/year).

*Rational Owner #1 says:* Those 3000 points are worth $10K at most if I try to sell them next month. So I am being asked to pay a $30,000 enrollment fee, or $15,000 per week. That's insane - no way!

*Rational Owner #2 says:* If I do this my total cost would be $40K for 3000 points and $30K for the two weeks that can get me another 12,400 points annually. So $70,000 for 15,400 points implies a cost per point of $4.55. This is actually 25%-35% cheaper than buying resale, which is $6-$7 per point after junk fees. Also, my total maintenance fees would be about $7600, which is about $0.49/point instead of $0.65 for Trust points. This is an awesome offer - I'll take it!

If you think about these types of offers in different ways, you can reach totally different conclusions! Both are reasonable ways to think about it, IMO...


----------



## DanCali

CalGalTraveler said:


> The percentage of resales increase over time unless they intend to ROFR every unit. This seems to go against their desire to increase Vistana inventory in Abound. This will leave Abound with scraps of Vistana's best properties over time.




The reason they are putting weeks in the trust is to sell points, but I don't think they care that much if there is any Vistana exchange inventory in Abound. They can still sell points based on potential access to 90+(?) resorts whether or not there is any exchange inventory. For example, there are currently some resorts that are allegedly part of Abound I have yet to book anything there Winter, Spring, or Summer, and believe me - I tried... The availability of inventory (or lack of it) doesn't impact their sales and probably has only a minor secondary impact on any revenue they generate from "skim". Suppose none of the WKV Platinum owners elect points, and MVC can't buy those weeks at ROFR (doesn't exist at that resort) - it still won't stop them from saying you can potentially trade into it.


----------



## remowidget

DanCali said:


> The reason they are putting weeks in the trust is to sell points, but I don't think they care that much if there is any Vistana exchange inventory in Abound.


I don't think they will move any weeks anywhere. Why would they pay legal and recording fees to move weeks from one account to another? It makes no sense. Ownership has zero impact on booking rooms. Consider Marriott Hotels. They own almost no hotels, but book customers into all of the affiliated brands.

We will see how much they care about Staroption Inventory in Abound. I can think of three scenarios off the top of my head.

1. Staroptions go away and everything is Abound points. I think this is unlikely, but... If they do this, all inventory will be in Abound Points.

2. We will be able to transfer weeks from StarOptions to Abound points. This seems to be the most likely with everything I have read. If they do this, they don't really care so much about inventory in Abound. It's an ugly solution for Staroption owners. Most everyone who does this will end up losing points because there will almost always be points leftover that aren't enough to book anything. Of course, this means extra income for MVC as these stranded points timeout.

3. Staroptions will be able to directly book DP properties, leaving leftover points as Staroptions. This would be my ideal, but.... Lol.

Note: I didn't use VSN or Vistana in my wording above because I think those concepts are going away. The real question is whether Staroptions will still exist. I think they will, well maybe hope they will.


----------



## wjarcher

kozykritter said:


> In writing from whom? In what context was this document created? As we know from this thread, sales offices present all kinds of materials purporting to be the truth about what will happen and yet on the whole, several of these things contradict each other. I think I have PTSD from all of it



Don't ask me the source of this due to the sensitivity of the information I was sharing, but here it is.  We've heard enough things from different sources (Just saw another thread on this) and I figure it is better for everyone to interpret this on their own on its validity.  Again, Marriott can decide to change these rules whenever they want.


----------



## jabberwocky

wjarcher said:


> Don't ask me the source of this due to the sensitivity of the information I was sharing, but here it is.  We've heard enough things from different sources (Just saw another thread on this) and I figure it is better for everyone to interpret this on their own on its validity.  Again, Marriott can decide to change these rules whenever they want.


Thanks for sharing the screenshot. So doesn’t this just kill the theory that VSN is being eliminated?  It’s only after Aug. 8th that you will need to make a purchase from MVC or Vistana to have it be eligible for Abound. Otherwise it can still be enrolled in VSN is how I’m reading it.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Thanks for sharing the screenshot. So doesn’t this just kill the theory that VSN is being eliminated?  It’s only after Aug. 8th that you will need to make a purchase from MVC or Vistana to have it be eligible for Abound. Otherwise it can still be enrolled in VSN is how I’m reading it.


It seems to. I don't think anyone is necessarily doubting the 8/8 or 8/9 date to be eligible as a mandatory owner. The only thing in question is the "insiders" use of the term "dismantled". Based on the screen shot provided, it seems that VSN would live on.


----------



## TJALB

CalGalTraveler said:


> I feel the same way you do. If it involves significant money then we will simply enjoy what we have. We don't trade our unit, it is mandatory and trades in SOs so no matter what they cook up we are fine.


Agree!  We certainly will NOT give up our “mandatory” benefits.


----------



## Racing2007

Has anyone addressed the issue that under the new system that reservations can be made 13 months out at certain levels and owners can only reserve 12 months out in their home resort? During the presentation, I was not provided with any concrete information that owners would get priority units regardless of the inventory set aside for Abound/marriot and when the reservation was made.


----------



## Helios

wjarcher said:


> Don't ask me the source of this due to the sensitivity of the information I was sharing, but here it is.  We've heard enough things from different sources (Just saw another thread on this) and I figure it is better for everyone to interpret this on their own on its validity.  Again, Marriott can decide to change these rules whenever they want.


This matched what I heard this week.


----------



## Racing2007

Just trying to verify whether they can actually step over a deeded owner. For instance, if that were the case, then theoretically an owner at 12 months out could actually be told that their property/ home resort is already sold out if everyone from the new program booked 13 months out.  Unlikely, but possible.  No sky falling here, just trying understand home resort ownership privileges. .


----------



## jabberwocky

Racing2007 said:


> Just trying to verify whether they can actually step over a deeded owner. For instance, if that were the case, then theoretically an owner at 12 months out could actually be told that their property/ home resort is already sold out if everyone from the new program booked 13 months out.  Unlikely, but possible.  No sky falling here, just trying understand home resort ownership privileges. .


The Abound trust is an owner just like everyone else and will have to abide by the same terms. Currently those terms state an owner cannot book before 12 months - so unless the trust has a fixed week it cannot be booked in Abound at 13 months.


----------



## Racing2007

Still confusing from the presentation. Can you explain that further?  I thought Abound was a collective and did not have a designated home resort. That is the reason for the 13 months. However, No one should be able to book before an owner at their home resort.


----------



## jabberwocky

Racing2007 said:


> Still confusing from the presentation. Can you explain that further?  I thought Abound was a collective and did not have a designated home resort. That is the reason for the 13 months. However, No one should be able to book before an owner at their home resort.


Abound is a collection of underlying resorts. Some of those resorts permit booking at 13 months. The trust can only allow owners of the trust to book what it owns. Vistana resorts generally are only available at 12 months, so the trust can’t book before then.

Ignore sales on this, they are trying to sell you based on fear.


----------



## pathways25

jabberwocky said:


> Abound is a collection of underlying resorts. Some of those resorts permit booking at 13 months. The trust can only allow owners of the trust to book what it owns. Vistana resorts generally are only available at 12 months, so the trust can’t book before then.
> 
> Ignore sales on this, they are trying to sell you based on fear.



I completely concur with this analysis.  The trust is just a collection of deeds.  Anytime an Abound user wants to make a reservation, they need to be assigned 1 (or more) unused intervals in the trust to make that reservation.  In theory, the Abound user will not be able to make a reservation that he/she could not have made if they were the direct owner of that assigned interval from the trust.

I was at WPORV in June and I ended up buying some Westin Flex points to retro several resale mandatory weeks that we own.  Apparently, based on recent updates, this was a complete waste of money.  Sigh...  An earlier poster suggested that the "insider's" previous information was intended to encourage people to retro more weeks before Abound rolls out.  That sure seems like the case to me now.


----------



## robertk2012

I guess we have dueling insiders!  At this point they want all of those resale purchases to disappear so they can collect them through buybacks and cheap rofr.


----------



## Racing2007

Ok. Just want to be sure that when that clock hits midnight, 12 months, out that owners will get priority like we always have at our home resort. Thanks for explaining. However, will believe when I experience it.


----------



## dioxide45

Racing2007 said:


> Ok. Just want to be sure that when that clock hits midnight, 12 months, out that owners will get priority like we always have at our home resort. Thanks for explaining. However, will believe when I experience it.


There was *a long thread* here discussing this very topic and there is some that are concerned regarding a segregation of inventory for Abound.


----------



## Grandma2016

I own everything at KOR...8 weeks including 3 week 52s...everything is OV or OF. Some developers some resale.  Normally we rent week 52s to pay maintenance fees on all weeks we own.  Bought all 3 week 52s for under 75k before over a year ago.  I believe we have over 50k mvc points with our ownership as is. We go every Jan and July for at least 3 weeks and stay OF.  I book my OF I own during home period and other weeks with SO.  It sounds like this will get harder to get OF with SO because after 8 months ill be competing with other owners for OF during our normal stays as well as marriott owners.  Thoughts on how to continue what we do with booking OFs????  I dont think converting to mvc to get 13 month booking window would help would it?


----------



## kozykritter

There is news about Abound by Marriott on the Marriott owners website after last night's update. They didn't share a lot of details but what they did share confirms that VSN and SOs well still exist. See my post on another thread:









						Vistana Update from Marriott Insider
					

Wont the owners of those resorts still have the 8 to 12 month booking window?   I should have specified that Marriott fishing for weeks on top of owners booking their weeks. This reinforces the fact to buy where you want to go. And I am going to add: when you want to go (season)




					tugbbs.com


----------



## kozykritter

Here's a new FAQ from the MVC website concerning Abound and booking windows for Vistana inventory:


Can Owners use Club Points to reserve a stay at a Sheraton Vacation Club or a Westin Vacation Club resort 13 months prior to arrival?


No. Owners can reserve a Sheraton Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club resort no earlier than 12 months prior to arrival.
Even those who own VOIs with Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club may not make a reservation for a stay at their Home Resort(s) earlier than 12 months prior to arrival.


----------



## rickandcindy23

kozykritter said:


> Here's a new FAQ from the MVC website concerning Abound and booking windows for Vistana inventory:
> 
> 
> Can Owners use Club Points to reserve a stay at a Sheraton Vacation Club or a Westin Vacation Club resort 13 months prior to arrival?
> 
> 
> No. Owners can reserve a Sheraton Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club resort no earlier than 12 months prior to arrival.
> Even those who own VOIs with Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club may not make a reservation for a stay at their Home Resort(s) earlier than 12 months prior to arrival.


Good information.


----------



## dioxide45

Here is the full Vistana points charts to make reservations (not what you get when electing Club Points)


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> Here is the full Vistana points charts to make reservations (not what you get when electing Club Points)


Thank you! These charts are very helpful.   Did you get it from an "official insider"?


----------



## kozykritter

MVC has released a 33-page PDF on the owner website detailing the exchange procedures. I'm still going through it but I can confirm that weeks and one-property Home Options owners have to deposit the entire VOI to participate...no partials including half a lockoff. For Westin, Sheraton and Adventuras Flex, they can deposit the entire VOI or in increments of 20,000 options (same as converting to Bonvoy points). EOY interests can only deposit for the year of their usage. Any deposits to Abound for a given use year can not be reversed...once it's done, it stays there.

Here is the document:


----------



## kozykritter

VacationForever said:


> Thank you! These charts are very helpful.   Did you get it from an "official insider"?


Haha. He got them from the most official insider, MVC's owner website.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> For Westin, Sheraton and Adventuras Flex, they can deposit the entire VOI or in increments of 20,000 options (same as converting to Bonvoy points).


So others that own these know. it does look like other Home Option owners (like Nanea and WSJ), they need to elect their entire VOI. The 20K looks to only apply to Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex and Aventuras.


----------



## VacationForever

I haven't gone to MVC or Vistana sites today, currently having crummy internet issues at home.


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> I haven't gone to MVC or Vistana sites today, currently having crummy internet issues at home.


Vistana.com is still down, so you aren't missing anything there. Lots of info on the MVC site though.


----------



## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> MVC has released a 33-page PDF on the owner website detailing the exchange procedures. I'm still going through it but I can confirm that weeks and one-property Home Options owners have to deposit the entire VOI to participate...no partials including half a lockoff. For Westin, Sheraton and Adventuras Flex, they can deposit the entire VOI or in increments of 20,000 options (same as converting to Bonvoy points). EOY interests can only deposit for the year of their usage. Any deposits to Abound for a given use year can not be reversed...once it's done, it stays there.
> 
> Here is the document:



It looks to me like this document would make mandatory resale owners VSN members of Abound regardless of the purchase date.  Haven’t read it thoroughly yet, but there doesn’t seem to be any reference to an acquisition date.


----------



## kozykritter

Eric B said:


> It looks to me like this document would make mandatory resale owners VSN members of Abound regardless of the purchase date.  Haven’t read it thoroughly yet, but there doesn’t seem to be any reference to an acquisition date.


What I've read so far seems to leave determination of who's eligible up to the home program, in this case Vistana so it wouldn't be spelled out in these general exchange terms most likely.


----------



## kozykritter

It appears no rentals of reservations booked through Abound will be allowed, similar to the II and RCI policies for exchanges.

"Guest means a person who, as an invited guest of a Program Member, stays in an Accommodation, and is not a Family Member of the Program Member. Special Benefits (aka access to Abound) and the ability to reserve Accommodations are not available for Guests’ reservations if unaccompanied by a Program Member or the Program Member’s Family Member."


----------



## rickandcindy23

dioxide45 said:


> Vistana.com is still down, so you aren't missing anything there. Lots of info on the MVC site though.


Vistana website is down regularly.  

I am worried about calling Vistana via phone to ask how to lock off our Westin Ka'anapali OF units.  There are stupid people at Vistana.  We have just the one reservation # for each of our two 2 bedroom weeks, and I wanted to advertise the studios, I am right at six months, but I need to get new reservation #'s.  

Roger lost my small one bedroom at SBP for a July week.  I was livid, and Vistana didn't get my week back.  They basically said that happens sometimes.  That was unacceptable.  I had a renter for that week.  I do not trust anyone at Vistana.  The last time I told the person to make sure they knew what they were doing for another lockoff at SBP, and I was able to get the small one bedroom back with a new reservation #.

Has anyone had this problem on the Westin side of things?


----------



## Venter

dioxide45 said:


> Here is the full Vistana points charts to make reservations (not what you get when electing Club Points)


I noticed Westin Riverfront and HRA is not included yet.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> It appears no rentals of reservations booked through Abound will be allowed, similar to the II and RCI policies for exchanges.
> 
> "Guest means a person who, as an invited guest of a Program Member, stays in an Accommodation, and is not a Family Member of the Program Member. Special Benefits (aka access to Abound) and the ability to reserve Accommodations are not available for Guests’ reservations if unaccompanied by a Program Member or the Program Member’s Family Member."


THis language has always existed in the MVC Exchange Procedures. Basically, MVC doesn't enforce it.


----------



## dioxide45

Venter said:


> I noticed Westin Riverfront and HRA is not included yet.


That is correct. They won't initially be available, but they look to make them available in the future. They have dropped the "2024" from their written verbiage.


----------



## dioxide45

rickandcindy23 said:


> Vistana website is down regularly.
> 
> I am worried about calling Vistana via phone to ask how to lock off our Westin Ka'anapali OF units.  There are stupid people at Vistana.  We have just the one reservation # for each of our two 2 bedroom weeks, and I wanted to advertise the studios, I am right at six months, but I need to get new reservation #'s.
> 
> Roger lost my small one bedroom at SBP for a July week.  I was livid, and Vistana didn't get my week back.  They basically said that happens sometimes.  That was unacceptable.  I had a renter for that week.  I do not trust anyone at Vistana.  The last time I told the person to make sure they knew what they were doing for another lockoff at SBP, and I was able to get the small one bedroom back with a new reservation #.
> 
> Has anyone had this problem on the Westin side of things?


When you call Vistana, don't use the term "lock off". You want to reserve the small 1BR or the large 1BR and that is what you should be asking for. If you have the full 2BR booked, it will become a cancel and rebook.


----------



## rickandcindy23

dioxide45 said:


> When you call Vistana, don't use the term "lock off". You want to reserve the small 1BR or the large 1BR and that is what you should be asking for. If you have the full 2BR booked, it will become a cancel and rebook.


Jeremy, I just bought these two weeks and already have the 2 bedrooms booked at Ka'anapali, oceanfront, whale season.  I cannot risk losing my reservations.  If that becomes a concern, I am going to keep the entire lockoff and give the studio side to our kids or something.  Maybe I should start another thread on this.


----------



## jabberwocky

kozykritter said:


> It appears no rentals of reservations booked through Abound will be allowed, similar to the II and RCI policies for exchanges.
> 
> "Guest means a person who, as an invited guest of a Program Member, stays in an Accommodation, and is not a Family Member of the Program Member. Special Benefits (aka access to Abound) and the ability to reserve Accommodations are not available for Guests’ reservations if unaccompanied by a Program Member or the Program Member’s Family Member."


I thought you could rent reservations made with MVC DP?  Is that not the case?


----------



## vacationtime1

dioxide45 said:


> When you call Vistana, don't use the term "lock off". You want to reserve the small 1BR or the large 1BR and that is what you should be asking for. If you have the full 2BR booked, it will become a cancel and rebook.


Vistana can "lockoff" an existing two bedroom reservation, keeping the original confirmation number for the one bedroom and adding a new confirmation number for the studio.  They have done this for me and that's what Cindy was trying to get them to do; the CSR screwed it up.


----------



## DanCali

rickandcindy23 said:


> Jeremy, I just bought these two weeks and already have the 2 bedrooms booked at Ka'anapali, oceanfront, whale season.  I cannot risk losing my reservations.  If that becomes a concern, I am going to keep the entire lockoff and give the studio side to our kids or something.  Maybe I should start another thread on this.



I have done this before with WKV. I had the 2BR reserved and wanted to separate to 2 different reservations. 

They can change the original reservation to a 1BR (IIRC it keeps the same reservation number and confirmation date). Then they create a new reservation number for the other side of the lockoff. If it is within 8 months it will show as a Staroptions reservation instead of Home Resort and a guest fee may apply.


----------



## mjm1

Grandma2016 said:


> I own everything at KOR...8 weeks including 3 week 52s...everything is OV or OF. Some developers some resale.  Normally we rent week 52s to pay maintenance fees on all weeks we own.  Bought all 3 week 52s for under 75k before over a year ago.  I believe we have over 50k mvc points with our ownership as is. We go every Jan and July for at least 3 weeks and stay OF.  I book my OF I own during home period and other weeks with SO.  It sounds like this will get harder to get OF with SO because after 8 months ill be competing with other owners for OF during our normal stays as well as marriott owners.  Thoughts on how to continue what we do with booking OFs????  I dont think converting to mvc to get 13 month booking window would help would it?



My initial thoughts are that you should continue to be ok if you make reservations right when the window opens. The points required to stay at KOR are higher than the Marriott properties, so while some Marriott owners won’t mind, many may not want to spend the additional points to stay there. Of course, only time will tell.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## kozykritter

Here is a PDF I made of the Abound FAQs from the MVC owner help center. They are written to address MVC owner questions about the program so best to interpret them from that perspective. Hopefully they will do a similar one on Vistana's website, you know, when it comes back online


----------



## Venter

dioxide45 said:


> That is correct. They won't initially be available, but they look to make them available in the future. They have dropped the "2024" from their written verbiage.


I got a snap of this at an presentation.


----------



## dioxide45

Venter said:


> I got a snap of this at an presentation.View attachment 63168


Interesting, it isn't included in the points chart available on the MVC website.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> Interesting, it isn't included in the points chart available on the MVC website.


Makes sense since they won't be part of the program until they can negotiate it. The point charts for both of those is in the Westin charts they give you when you purchase, which I posted a few weeks ago.


----------



## DanCali

Venter said:


> I got a snap of this at an presentation.View attachment 63168




I've posted in post #2949 by best guess to how points for HRA will be allocated. This is based on a methodology that seems to work with very minor errors in all cases I've checked. It involves:

(1) Match the Vistana or Marriott week deeded seasons with the Marriott booking chart (I may be off by 1 week here and there)
(2) Find the average points required to book a week in the actual deeded season
(3) Haircut 7% (aka "skim")

Based on this, here is what I got for WRV Platinum and Gold... A 2BR Platinum would get around 5525 points and a 2BR Gold only around 1800. If true, those summer weeks are very undervalued - we've been there several times in the summer and it's a great resort & location.

The calculations may be slightly off if I miscounted weeks by +/-1 (e.g., the week 15 lower numbers may actually not belong in the Platinum season), so the actual numbers for Platinum may be off by 2%- 3%, but this should be a reasonable estimate IMO.


----------



## Bodie

"Availability at Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club resorts for Marriott Vacation Club owners will depend on the number of Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club owners at those resorts who elect to receive Club Points. For this reason, it is possible that there could be limited availability at some Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club resorts."  

So,  tell me why this program is something. about which I - as a MVC weeks and points owner - should be excited?  All I can see is a company who spent a lot of money on unexciting resorts in unexciting cities and who just made it harder for us to reserve at the few desirable properties.   Think I just might attend a sales presentation to see how MVC is selling this white elephant.


----------



## dioxide45

Bodie said:


> "Availability at Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club resorts for Marriott Vacation Club owners will depend on the number of Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club owners at those resorts who elect to receive Club Points. For this reason, it is possible that there could be limited availability at some Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club resorts."
> 
> So,  tell me why this program is something. about which I - as a MVC weeks and points owner - should be excited?  All I can see is a company who spent a lot of money on unexciting resorts in unexciting cities and who just made it harder for us to reserve at the few desirable properties.   Think I just might attend a sales presentation to see how MVC is selling this white elephant.


I think they are just trying to set expectations out of the gate. Initial Abound usage by Vistana owners will probably be limited. Over time as VSN members start to use it, they may start to see value in it and it will open up more inventory to the program for those Westin and Sheraton properties. MVC is certainly going to point out the 90+ properties that are available and won't disclose how hard some of them are to book. It is no different than today.


----------



## dioxide45

Abound members won't be able to reserve what Vistana owners don't give to them. I suspect there will be very little change with OF Maui inventory availability at 12 months. There is no option for anyone to book those at 13 months based on the terms as they have been laid out.


----------



## Grandma2016

dioxide45 said:


> Abound members won't be able to reserve what Vistana owners don't give to them. I suspect there will be very little change with OF Maui inventory availability at 12 months. There is no option for anyone to book those at 13 months based on the terms as they have been laid out.


What about booking after home reservation period.  I have enough options to book but dont own OF to go several weeks in a row.  Ive been lucky in the past to find OF at 8 months and use SO to book


----------



## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> Abound members won't be able to reserve what Vistana owners don't give to them. I suspect there will be very little change with OF Maui inventory availability at 12 months. There is no option for anyone to book those at 13 months based on the terms as they have been laid out.


Some owners will deposit in Abound and it is Marriott that will either spread the deposits evenly for each calendar week or block for Abound a relatively larger number of units for the weeks that require more points to book = advantage Marriott since they will have leftover nights that they can rent. The process is completely not transparent. Maybe the "insiders" will tell us.


----------



## jabberwocky

Bodie said:


> So,  tell me why this program is something. about which I - as a MVC weeks and points owner - should be excited?  All I can see is a company who spent a lot of money on unexciting resorts in unexciting cities and who just made it harder for us to reserve at the few desirable properties.   Think I just might attend a sales presentation to see how MVC is selling this white elephant.


The merger was never really about offering more resorts to MVC owners.  I think they are more excited about having a more extensive customer base (Vistana owners) to sell the MVC program to.


----------



## kozykritter

Bodie said:


> "Availability at Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club resorts for Marriott Vacation Club owners will depend on the number of Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club owners at those resorts who elect to receive Club Points. For this reason, it is possible that there could be limited availability at some Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club resorts."
> 
> So,  tell me why this program is something. about which I - as a MVC weeks and points owner - should be excited?  All I can see is a company who spent a lot of money on unexciting resorts in unexciting cities and who just made it harder for us to reserve at the few desirable properties.   Think I just might attend a sales presentation to see how MVC is selling this white elephant.


Oh no you did-nt! Coming into our house to dis' our program 

You may think our baby is ugly and smells funny.

Our response: Hold your nose or run away because we love our baby just as it is. Plus you really don't notice after awhile.


----------



## DanCali

Bodie said:


> Think I just might attend a sales presentation to see how MVC is selling this white elephant.



"You now have access to 90+ resorts whereas it was only 65 resorts before"

"Westins are really high-end timeshares"

"You can now combine trips and make it more exciting - 5 days at Westin St. John, 5 days on St. Thomas; 5 days in Poipu, 5 days in Princeville"

"But what you really need are more points to make it all work even better for you! You will need access to the Trust now more than ever. And you will need more points for those 10-night trips."


There you go - I just saved you 90 minutes on your next vacation!


----------



## Jimmyboy

Per this chart my WK Platinum Plus booked during peek time requires 5400 Points.  Can assume that's what I will get if I decide to exchange my 148100 star options for Abound points?


----------



## Red elephant

DanCali said:


> "You now have access to 90+ resorts whereas it was only 65 resorts before"
> 
> "Westins are really high-end timeshares"
> 
> "You can now combine trips and make it more exciting - 5 days at Westin St. John, 5 days on St Thomas; 5 days in Poipu, 5 days in Princeville"
> 
> "But what you really are more points to make it all work even better for you because you need access to the Trust more than ever"
> 
> There you go - I just saved you 90 minutes on your next vacation!


This is the best!!!


----------



## Red elephant

Jimmyboy said:


> Per this chart my WK Platinum Plus booked during peek time requires 5400 Points.  Can assume that's what I will get if I decide to exchange my 148100 star options for Abound points?


Unfortunately not. You get 4050 I believe. That’s just what is required to book the resort at that time. What you get stays the same.


----------



## jabberwocky

Red elephant said:


> Unfortunately not. You get 4050 I believe. That’s just what is required to book the resort at that time. What you get stays the same.


Correct. You would only get 4050. Marriott gives you an average value in the season and then applies a “skim” factor. So you could potentially not book what you own if you convert to Abound.


----------



## DanCali

Jimmyboy said:


> Per this chart my WK Platinum Plus booked during peek time requires 5400 Points.  Can assume that's what I will get if I decide to exchange my 148100 star options for Abound points?



Based on some reverse engineering, what you get is the average number of points required to book a week in the season you own, less 7% (aka, "skim")

You can see this calculation specifically for WKV a couple of hundred posts ago.... It came out pretty much at 4050 (link below).

Aside from that 7% skim, the average number of points to book a week in the season is the most you can get because otherwise they would be giving out more points than are required to book the entire season. If they gave us that number, it wouldn't be "skim" even if you can't book all the weeks in your seasons.

You'd generally elect Abound points to make a reservation at a different resort not your home resort. There are some weeks in January and May (still Platinum season) when you can actually use 4050 Abound points to book 10 nights at WKV. 4050 won't get you 7 nights in March, but that's what your deeded week is for... Elect points only when it's beneficial for you.









						CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
					

Thank you for your hard work on this. Let’s hope it’s close to this if they do work out the issues that are preventing this from being included in the initial launch.   I do have a vested interest in this, as I own in both seasons :)   These numbers are still low compared to week rental values...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad

Grandma2016 said:


> What about booking after home reservation period.  I have enough options to book but dont own OF to go several weeks in a row.  Ive been lucky in the past to find OF at 8 months and use SO to book


Be thankful that you've been lucky in the past considering there was no guarantee. Same for anything you get going forward.


----------



## Red elephant

DanCali said:


> Based on some reverse engineering, what you get is the average number of points required to book a week in the season you own, less 7% (aka, "skim")
> 
> You can see this calculation specifically for WKV a couple of hundred posts ago.... It came out pretty much at 4050 (link below).
> 
> Aside from that 7% skim, the average number of points to book a week in the season is the most you can get because otherwise they would be giving out more points than are required to book the entire season. If they gave us that number, it wouldn't be "skim" even if you can't book all the weeks in your seasons.
> 
> You'd generally elect Abound points to make a reservation at a different resort not your home resort. There are some weeks in January and May (still Platinum season) when you can actually use 4050 Abound points to book 10 nights at WKV. 4050 won't get you 7 nights in March, but that's what your deeded week is for... Elect points only when it's beneficial for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
> 
> 
> Thank you for your hard work on this. Let’s hope it’s close to this if they do work out the issues that are preventing this from being included in the initial launch.   I do have a vested interest in this, as I own in both seasons :)   These numbers are still low compared to week rental values...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com


This is really interesting so you can use it to your advantage sometimes .
Do you have any idea what platinum 1 bedroom at HRA may be ?


----------



## DanCali

Red elephant said:


> This is really interesting so you can use it to your advantage sometimes .
> Do you have any idea what platinum 1 bedroom at HRA may be ?




I had a speculative post on that one too (#2949). It was around 2125 for the Small 1BR and 2700 for the larger one. We'll see how close I get whenever that info comes out.   









						CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
					

I logged in today, and don't see anything different on my reservations or on what I own.




					tugbbs.com


----------



## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> Here is the full Vistana points charts to make reservations (not what you get when electing Club Points)


Westin Cancun is not among the resort. I am wondering if it is on the way of being sold.


----------



## Red elephant

DanCali said:


> I had a speculative post on that one too (#2949). It was around 2125 for the Small 1BR and 2700 for the larger one. We'll see how close I get whenever that info comes out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
> 
> 
> I logged in today, and don't see anything different on my reservations or on what I own.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 63183


Oh thanks I must have missed that post.


----------



## cubigbird

timsi said:


> Westin Cancun is not among the resort. I am wondering if it is on the way of being sold.


Then why did they convert most of it to timeshare?


----------



## dioxide45

timsi said:


> Westin Cancun is not among the resort. I am wondering if it is on the way of being sold.


It was included but somehow I forgot to add it to the combined PDF I created on Adobe.com. I have updated my original post with the chart and the updated version is in this one too.


----------



## vistana101

dioxide45 said:


> It was included but somehow I forgot to add it to the combined PDF I created on Adobe.com. I have updated my original post with the chart and the updated version is in this one too.


Good to see they're keeping SVV/SVR and Grande Vista all at the same level.


----------



## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> It was included but somehow, I forgot to add it to the combined PDF I created on Adobe.com. I have updated my original post with the chart and the updated version is in this one too.


Thank you for sharing with us. I guess the Vistana owners will have access in the near future, but we have been waiting for such a long time that it is nice to finally see it. 

I feel Vistana rich and Abound poor. I say this objectively, not with frustration.  I will continue to use the ownership as before: home resort reservations, Interval and a bit of VSN.  Even if f I had all my Vistana weeks enrolled, Abound would offer little to no value to me. I am wondering if the Vistana owners will not have a sticker price shock when they see the points chart. It remains to be seen if the Vistana owners will rush to buy MVC points (AMV points now?) at $15 pp.   I know some rushed to buy based on murky sales statements but once the rules are clear, many will probably find they own enough already. If they can convince people to pay 105,000 dollars to get enough AMV points to book a good week at Lagunamar, good for them, but let me be skeptical.


----------



## dioxide45

Here is some Abound information from Vistana.com. It looks like there will be an opportunity to opt-out and continue to pay the current VSN Membership Fee amount and not be able to use Club Points (Abound). There is the 8/9 date outlined below in regard to mandatory resales VOIs.

*Important Information Regarding Abound by Marriott Vacations™*


The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program) or Club Dues/VSN Network Membership Fees (for Members of the Vistana Signature Network (“VSN”).
Reservations using the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program are expected to be functional and go live in October 2022 for reservations beginning with the 2023 Use Year. Owners will be notified when this capability in Abound is available.
Certain Owners who may be able to opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees but will still be required to pay VSN Network Membership Fees and separate a la carte transaction fees.
Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be given the opportunity to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.

VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible.
VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees.


*Vistana® Signature Experiences Resorts*

Availability in Abound by Marriott Vacations™ starting 12 months prior to check-in applies to inventory made available by Vistana Signature Network® members electing to receive Club Points.

We anticipate that exchange through the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program may not be available at Harborside Resort at Atlantis and The Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas for stays in 2023 (and, possibly beyond for Harborside Resort at Atlantis); however, we will communicate more specific information at a later time.


----------



## dioxide45

It looks like the current VSN fee will live on as well as the a la carte fees. So that seems to indicate that post 8/9 mandatory resales will participate in VSN just as mandatory resales do today (and pre 8/9).


----------



## kozykritter

Nice work Dioxide! You should seriously consider a career in detective work* *


----------



## kozykritter

Interesting stuff! The way that they worded it with mandatory resale before 8/9 saying that they would have the *opportunity* to elect Club points and have their ownership counted towards benefit levels implies to me that there will be some sort of enrollment fee to do so or maybe even a purchase of MVC club points. For developer purchases they just said straight up that they're eligible.

An enrollment fee or points purchase for unqualified mandatory resales has been a discussed possibility on these forums since the soft launch. I suppose that's better than saying that they are not eligible at all ever. It makes sense as Marriott charged resales owners as of a certain date in 2010 an enrollment fee to join the MVC internal exchange company (now called Abound) and receive points so why wouldn't they do the same here?


----------



## VacationForever

Jeremy, I log-in to Vistana and don't find the information which you have posted.  Did you get it as a pop-up box like MVC site?


----------



## kozykritter

VacationForever said:


> Jeremy, I log-in to Vistana and don't find the information which you have posted.  Did you get it as a pop-up box like MVC site?


Go to the very bottom of the page and click on site map.


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> Jeremy, I log-in to Vistana and don't find the information which you have posted.  Did you get it as a pop-up box like MVC site?


No popup. It is at the bottom of that Dashboard and clicking on SITE MAP. Thanks to @aeroflygirl for mentioning it in this post. I wouldn't have found it otherwise.


----------



## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> Here is some Abound information from Vistana.com. It looks like there will be an opportunity to opt-out and continue to pay the current VSN Membership Fee amount and not be able to use Club Points (Abound). There is the 8/9 date outlined below in regard to mandatory resales VOIs.
> 
> *Important Information Regarding Abound by Marriott Vacations™*
> 
> 
> The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program) or Club Dues/VSN Network Membership Fees (for Members of the Vistana Signature Network (“VSN”).
> Reservations using the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program are expected to be functional and go live in October 2022 for reservations beginning with the 2023 Use Year. Owners will be notified when this capability in Abound is available.
> Certain Owners who may be able to opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees but will still be required to pay VSN Network Membership Fees and separate a la carte transaction fees.
> Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be given the opportunity to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.
> 
> VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible.
> VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees.
> 
> 
> *Vistana® Signature Experiences Resorts*
> 
> Availability in Abound by Marriott Vacations™ starting 12 months prior to check-in applies to inventory made available by Vistana Signature Network® members electing to receive Club Points.
> 
> We anticipate that exchange through the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program may not be available at Harborside Resort at Atlantis and The Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas for stays in 2023 (and, possibly beyond for Harborside Resort at Atlantis); however, we will communicate more specific information at a later time.


I am wondering what kind of  VOIs "may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities" and what it means for those with more complex ownership (retail/resale, mandatory/voluntary).

Also, If the mandatory VSN is given the opportunity to participate in Abound, if you opt in, do you have to agree to give up the mandatory status? Can they ask you to agree with something that is in conflict with the mandatory rules at your resort?


----------



## timsi

Since they mention 8/9, I guess they filed some legal documents on that day, but we do not have access to them yet. Or maybe they had just planned to announce this on 8/9 but they had to postpone due to the IT fiasco. By the way, I only logged in vistana.com now after several attempts. I am patient and deep in my heart I know everything will be fixed in the next 10 years.


----------



## dioxide45

timsi said:


> I am wondering what kind of  VOIs "may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities" and what it means for those with more complex ownership (retail/resale, mandatory/voluntary).
> 
> Also, If the mandatory VSN is given the opportunity to participate in Abound, if you opt in, do you have to agree to give up the mandatory status? Can they ask you to agree with something that is in conflict with the mandatory rules at your resort?


I think the opt-out option may be there for some people that only own one week and don't qualify for 3* and only use their home resort where they would see an increase in the VSN fee when it goes to the Abound Club Fee. The current VSN Fee is $160 and the Abound Club Fee would be $230. They may be willing to provide those owners an opt-out to prevent a lot of complaints about the fees.


----------



## dioxide45

timsi said:


> Since they mention 8/9, I guess they filed some legal documents on that day, but we do not have access to them yet. Or maybe they had just planned to announce this on 8/9 but they had to postpone due to the IT fiasco. By the way, I only logged in vistana.com now after several attempts. I am patient and deep in my heart I know everything will be fixed in the next 10 years.


They filed some documents with the Orange County Florida Recorder on 8/15 that were dated 8/4 but they made no mention of those dates. I don't know that filing of any specific documents is required for this. They could really set any arbitrary date that they want. Perhaps it was a date that they made a formal internal announcement and they wanted to hedge off internal staff from taking advantage of privileged information for their own gain.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> They filed some documents with the Orange County Florida Recorder on 8/15 that were dated 8/4 but they made no mention of those dates. I don't know that filing of any specific documents is required for this. They could really set any arbitrary date that they want. Perhaps it was a date that they made a formal internal announcement and they wanted to hedge off internal staff from taking advantage of privileged information for their own gain.


That is how SVO handled things like this back when I sold for them at WRF. They wouldn't tell us until the day things happened, like when we showed up for work one day and they told us "ok, as of today we are no longer selling weeks but instead this new thing called Flex!"  Many times we learned about changes first from owners that received emails before SVO corporate informed us.  Smart move, though, as you could see how some people could exploit early notice for their own gain.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> That is how SVO handled things like this back when I sold for them at WRF. They wouldn't tell us until the day things happened, like when we showed up for work one day and they told us "ok, as of today we are no longer selling weeks but instead this new thing called Flex!"  Many times we learned about changes first from owners that received emails before SVO corporate informed us.  Smart move, though, as you could see how some people could exploit early notice for their own gain.


Yeah, same a most large public corporations. Most of the staff doesn't find out about things until they are also announced to the general public. That is a little more important since actual Internal Trading laws could be broken if the privileged information is known.


----------



## jabberwocky

kozykritter said:


> Interesting stuff! The way that they worded it with mandatory resale before 8/9 saying that they would have the *opportunity* to elect Club points and have their ownership counted towards benefit levels implies to me that there will be some sort of enrollment fee to do so or maybe even a purchase of MVC club points. For developer purchases they just said straight up that they're eligible.
> 
> An enrollment fee or points purchase for unqualified mandatory resales has been a discussed possibility on these forums since the soft launch. I suppose that's better than saying that they are not eligible at all ever. It makes sense as Marriott charged resales owners as of a certain date in 2010 an enrollment fee to join the MVC internal exchange company (now called Abound) and receive points so why wouldn't they do the same here?


But then why do it as an opt-out rather than an opt-in?  Whe DP were launched in 2010 you had to opt-in.  Here it seems like if you're in VSN as of 8/8 it is automatically included. Otherwise, you'd potentially end up paying the VSN fee and the Marriott annual fee?


----------



## kozykritter

We don't know yet what "certain owners" they are talking about that can opt out nor do we know if developer/requalified resales will be automatically enrolled since it wasn't stated anywhere in that limited info. Too many details missing. But that specific language given for mandatory resales already in the VSN implies they will have the opportunity to opt in and that an enrollment fee/purchase is likely since it was presented as an opportunity and not direct "you're in" eligibility like developer.

Eligibility is not enrollment. It's more like a culling of ownerships down to ones that are eligible to enroll with or without conditions. Right now it's clear that unqualified voluntary resales are out of that class since they wouldn't be in the VSN as of 8/8. For the remaining ownerships they need to tell us more!


----------



## capjak

Seems like you could contact a trusted salesperson/insider and find out what the "opt in" means?   Since they all the documents in place stating that there is this opportunity.


----------



## kozykritter

capjak said:


> Seems like you could contact a trusted salesperson/insider and find out what the "opt in" means?   Since they all the documents in place stating that there is this opportunity.


You seriously want people quoting an insider at this point?


----------



## capjak

Seems they would have it in writing so that they could start today selling based on the opt in.


----------



## kozykritter

capjak said:


> Seems they would have it in writing so that they could start today selling based on the opt in.


We've seen things in writing here that appear now to be untrue. Anyone with a computer and a printer can create a document.  Call me jaded!


----------



## Jimmyboy

DanCali said:


> Based on some reverse engineering, what you get is the average number of points required to book a week in the season you own, less 7% (aka, "skim")
> 
> You can see this calculation specifically for WKV a couple of hundred posts ago.... It came out pretty much at 4050 (link below).
> 
> Aside from that 7% skim, the average number of points to book a week in the season is the most you can get because otherwise they would be giving out more points than are required to book the entire season. If they gave us that number, it wouldn't be "skim" even if you can't book all the weeks in your seasons.
> 
> You'd generally elect Abound points to make a reservation at a different resort not your home resort. There are some weeks in January and May (still Platinum season) when you can actually use 4050 Abound points to book 10 nights at WKV. 4050 won't get you 7 nights in March, but that's what your deeded week is for... Elect points only when it's beneficial for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
> 
> 
> Thank you for your hard work on this. Let’s hope it’s close to this if they do work out the issues that are preventing this from being included in the initial launch.   I do have a vested interest in this, as I own in both seasons :)   These numbers are still low compared to week rental values...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com



Makes sense and this 4050 number was the number given to me at the last update I had in July.    We were told Nonqualified our resold mandatory deeds would not be included but this is not evident in their publication.  They state VSN members can particcipate which Mandatory members are included.  It seems to me they would want as many particpants and possible to be included.  Marriott resells are included by adding a surcharge at the time of transfer.  The sales people at the update tried talking me into to buy extra flex to qualify my resale deeds but we didn't go for it.  If we get in fine if we don't we can still use VSN exchange which works well for us anyway.


----------



## dioxide45

capjak said:


> Seems they would have it in writing so that they could start today selling based on the opt in.


We really don't know what they have and what they do have and how they interpret it. One person's interpretation may be quite different than another.


----------



## Jimmyboy

dioxide45 said:


> Here is some Abound information from Vistana.com. It looks like there will be an opportunity to opt-out and continue to pay the current VSN Membership Fee amount and not be able to use Club Points (Abound). There is the 8/9 date outlined below in regard to mandatory resales VOIs.
> 
> *Important Information Regarding Abound by Marriott Vacations™*
> 
> 
> The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program) or Club Dues/VSN Network Membership Fees (for Members of the Vistana Signature Network (“VSN”).
> Reservations using the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program are expected to be functional and go live in October 2022 for reservations beginning with the 2023 Use Year. Owners will be notified when this capability in Abound is available.
> Certain Owners who may be able to opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees but will still be required to pay VSN Network Membership Fees and separate a la carte transaction fees.
> Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be given the opportunity to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.
> 
> VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible.
> VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees.
> 
> 
> *Vistana® Signature Experiences Resorts*
> 
> Availability in Abound by Marriott Vacations™ starting 12 months prior to check-in applies to inventory made available by Vistana Signature Network® members electing to receive Club Points.
> 
> We anticipate that exchange through the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program may not be available at Harborside Resort at Atlantis and The Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas for stays in 2023 (and, possibly beyond for Harborside Resort at Atlantis); however, we will communicate more specific information at a later time.




Great info.  I wonder how much the additional fees will be to be part of Abound Progam


----------



## dioxide45

Jimmyboy said:


> Great info.  I wonder how much the additional fees will be to be part of Abound Progam


----------



## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> No popup. It is at the bottom of that Dashboard and clicking on SITE MAP. Thanks to @aeroflygirl for mentioning it in this post. I wouldn't have found it otherwise.


more info here


			https://content.marriottvacationclub.com/abound/Abound-by-Marriott-Vacations-Exchange-Procedures.pdf
		



kozykritter said:


> Interesting stuff! The way that they worded it with mandatory resale before 8/9 saying that they would have the *opportunity* to elect Club points and have their ownership counted towards benefit levels implies to me that there will be some sort of enrollment fee to do so or maybe even a purchase of MVC club points. For developer purchases they just said straight up that they're eligible.
> 
> An enrollment fee or points purchase for unqualified mandatory resales has been a discussed possibility on these forums since the soft launch. I suppose that's better than saying that they are not eligible at all ever. It makes sense as Marriott charged resales owners as of a certain date in 2010 an enrollment fee to join the MVC internal exchange company (now called Abound) and receive points so why wouldn't they do the same here?



I see the opportunity to *elect points* not to *join Abound, *to me it sounds like the membership to Abound is already baked in once you are a VSN owner. Who knows, maybe once you are a VSN member they will give the *opportunity* to bring all other resale weeks in. Maybe they do not like the voluntary/mandatory complication and they can solve that by offering the option to have everything in Abound. I speculate that the resale VOIs are better than the average and that they include some of the best units/views/seasons/resorts because people generally do not default on something of value when the secondary market is there for them. It would certainly make sense to invite those to be part of Abound.


----------



## bigbillf

dioxide45 said:


> View attachment 63226


Looks to me that VSN members in good standing are not required to pay Exchange Company Dues...... As per Section VI 3 in the attachment, page 14?


----------



## dioxide45

bigbillf said:


> Looks to me that VSN members in good standing are not required to pay Exchange Company Dues...... As per Section VI 3 in the attachment, page 14?


I would agree, they won't pay an Exchange Company Dues to Abound, but there is this _"beyond what is payable to Network Operator for membership in the Network"_. So I think VSN members still pay the fee, just to VSN instead, as the Network is defined in the document as VSN.


----------



## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> I would agree, they won't pay an Exchange Company Dues to Abound, but there is this _"beyond what is payable to Network Operator for membership in the Network"_. So I think VSN members still pay the fee, just to VSN instead, as the Network is defined in the document as VSN.
> 
> View attachment 63230


"Network or VSN means the Vistana Signature Network, the service name given to the variety of exchange and reservation services and vacation and travel benefits currently offered, and the restrictions currently imposed by Network Operator for Network Resorts. The Network is an exchange program offered by Network Operator, an exchange company. Network Operator means Vistana Signature Network, Inc., a Delaware corporation, its successors and permitted assigns."

To me it sounds like you continue to pay the existing fees to Vistana for Vistana (the Network) not for Abound. I do not see any mention that you have to pay additional money for the Exchange (Abound).


----------



## dioxide45

timsi said:


> "Network or VSN means the Vistana Signature Network, the service name given to the variety of exchange and reservation services and vacation and travel benefits currently offered, and the restrictions currently imposed by Network Operator for Network Resorts. The Network is an exchange program offered by Network Operator, an exchange company. Network Operator means Vistana Signature Network, Inc., a Delaware corporation, its successors and permitted assigns."
> 
> To me it sounds like you continue to pay the existing fees to Vistana for Vistana (the Network) not for Abound. I do not see any mention that you have to pay additional money for the Exchange (Abound).


I agree. I think we are both saying the same thing.


----------



## jabberwocky

I wonder if the second point would apply also to those of us that have requalified a resale voluntary unit as it was not purchased through an authorized resale agent?  When I read this I'm thinking it is specifically defining those who can participate:

1) Developer purchases or resales through an authorized resale agent at any time (including after August 8, 2022
2) Anyone in VSN prior to August 9 who purchased resale that is unauthorized. 



> Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
> 
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be given the opportunity to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.



The next following point I think just clarifies that VSN enrolled resales post-8/8 will not be in Abound.  That resolves any uncertainty that might have existed from the prior points.



> VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible.


----------



## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> I agree. I think we are both saying the same thing.


It also seems to suggest that those with Vistana and Marriott VOIs will continue to pay 2 separate sets of fees and will not necessarily save on annual membership fees. I am not surprised if Marriott is not giving up a revenue stream for no good reason.


----------



## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> I think the opt-out option may be there for some people that only own one week and don't qualify for 3* and only use their home resort where they would see an increase in the VSN fee when it goes to the Abound Club Fee. The current VSN Fee is $160 and the Abound Club Fee would be $230. They may be willing to provide those owners an opt-out to prevent a lot of complaints about the fees.


That doesn't make sense to me. The chart I've seen shows all enrolled owners paying Club dues. I think it is more likely there will be a fee to enroll mandatory resales. If so, it seems like mandatory resale owners who were lied to about this and made a purchase might have standing in a lawsuit.


----------



## dioxide45

timsi said:


> It also seems to suggest that those with Vistana and Marriott VOIs will continue to pay 2 separate sets of fees and will not necessarily save on annual membership fees. I am not surprised if Marriott is not giving up a revenue stream for no good reason.


We did see this in the Marriott FAQ;


----------



## timsi

remowidget said:


> That doesn't make sense to me. The chart I've seen shows all enrolled owners paying Club dues. I think it is more likely there will be a fee to enroll mandatory resales. If so, it seems like mandatory resale owners who were lied to about this and made a purchase might have standing in a lawsuit.


If I had a dollar for every lie said during an owner update...


----------



## Jimmyboy

bigbillf said:


> Looks to me that VSN members in good standing are not required to pay Exchange Company Dues...... As per Section VI 3 in the attachment, page 14?



Yep that what it says.   So I wonder why a vsn owner would want to opt out?


----------



## Jimmyboy

dioxide45 said:


> I would agree, they won't pay an Exchange Company Dues to Abound, but there is this _"beyond what is payable to Network Operator for membership in the Network"_. So I think VSN members still pay the fee, just to VSN instead, as the Network is defined in the document as VSN.
> 
> View attachment 63230



My guess we will see this when the billing comes out for 2023.


----------



## dioxide45

Jimmyboy said:


> My guess we will see this when the billing comes out for 2023.


Flex owners have noticed that the VSN Fee is excluded from their annual maintenance fee bill this year. I suspect it will be billed separately going forward.


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> Flex owners have noticed that the VSN Fee is excluded from their annual maintenance fee bill this year. I suspect it will be billed separately going forward.


The invoice had language saying club dues would be billed separately prior to December going forward.


----------



## Red elephant

Just attended an update at SBP and they tried to sell me Sheraton flex and said they can retro only Nanea into flex so I can choose to use the home options as flex in any given year if I owned Sheraton flex. Only SBP and Orlando are selling flex right now and it’s about to end. They are the only ones that can do this with Nanea and only Nanea no other resort .


----------



## kozykritter

The Club Dues situation is murky at best. There could be three different fee options: those participating in Abound Exchange ($230), those not participating in Abound automatically paying a Consolidated VSN fee ($230) but can opt out of the consolidation and pay a standard VSN fee ($160) plus transaction fees. Or it could just be Abound Exchange fee ($230) or the standard VSN fee ($160) plus transaction fees for those not in Abound.  Or it could be completely different. We need more info, please!


----------



## vacationtime1

Red elephant said:


> Just attended an update at SBP and they tried to sell me Sheraton flex and said they can retro only Nanea into flex so I can choose to use the home options as flex in any given year if I owned Sheraton flex. Only SBP and Orlando are selling flex right now and it’s about to end. They are the only ones that can do this with Nanea and only Nanea no other resort .


Sleazy sales techniques.  They knew you owned Nanea and used FOMO (and a bunch of lies) to attempt to separate you from your money.  

The best information we have right now is that if you bought Nanea from the developer, you are Abound-eligible without doing anything further.


----------



## Red elephant

vacationtime1 said:


> Sleazy sales techniques.  They knew you owned Nanea and used FOMO (and a bunch of lies) to attempt to separate you from your money.
> 
> The best information we have right now is that if you bought Nanea from the developer, you are Abound-eligible without doing anything further.


They were saying I could buy flex and they would add Nanea for me to use as flex options in interval. 
when I refused he comes back and says BTW new for 2023 Nanea can be used as flex options in interval. So I say why where you trying to sell me Sheraton flex to do that if I have that option starting in 2023?


----------



## Red elephant

The other thing I was told is that any resale bought after that 8/9 date will not have access to Abound and if you requalified it would not give you elite benefits only access to Abound.


----------



## Red elephant

They are selling hybrid weeks and Sheraton  flex at SBP from foreclosed ownership.


----------



## dioxide45

Red elephant said:


> The other thing I was told is that any resale bought after that 8/9 date will not have access to Abound and if you requalified it would not give you elite benefits only access to Abound.


Well, we do know it will provide Elite benefits in Abound, we just aren't clear on how mandatory pre 8/9 qualify for Abound.


----------



## dsmrp

Hmm, if Westin Flex is nearly sold out ( if we believe Sales), what are those Westin based sales people trying to push now until the October go-live of Abound operations?  DC points? 

We have a WDW stay in September. Be interesting to see what they try to sell us.
Or if they'll have any more info that what's here on TUG.  I don't think I could get DH to attend another 'update' tho. For him it's almost as bad as a root canal LOL.


----------



## Red elephant

dsmrp said:


> Hmm, if Westin Flex is nearly sold out ( if we believe Sales), what are those Westin based sales people trying to push now until the October go-live of Abound operations?  DC points?
> 
> We have a WDW stay in September. Be interesting to see what they try to sell us.
> Or if they'll have any more info that what's here on TUG.  I don't think I could get DH to attend another 'update' tho. For him it's almost as bad as a root canal LOL.


I was told today that Westin flex is no longer being sold only Sheraton flex at SBP and Orlando. Everyone is selling club points ( Abound).


----------



## dioxide45

dsmrp said:


> Hmm, if Westin Flex is nearly sold out ( if we believe Sales), what are those Westin based sales people trying to push now until the October go-live of Abound operations?  DC points?
> 
> We have a WDW stay in September. Be interesting to see what they try to sell us.
> Or if they'll have any more info that what's here on TUG.  I don't think I could get DH to attend another 'update' tho. For him it's almost as bad as a root canal LOL.


I got the impression from our last sales presentation that they were nearly out of Westin Flex. THey seemed to be scraping bottom. They will transition over to selling Abound Club Points and talk those up like they are the greatest thing and how Flex plain sucks...


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## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
> Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
> VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be given the opportunity to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.
> 
> VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible.



I would guess that "purchased through an unauthorized resale agent" is referring to mandatory resales that haven't been requalified. 

Does "HOA resale offer" mean resales that have been requalified? If so, there could be a fee for any requalified weeks to play in Abound.


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## dioxide45

remowidget said:


> I would guess that "purchased through an unauthorized resale agent" is referring to mandatory resales that haven't been requalified.
> 
> Does "HOA resale offer" mean resales that have been requalified? If so, there could be a fee for any requalified weeks to play in Abound.


HOA resale is a week that is owned by the HOA and sold to existing (or sometimes new) owners. Just the HOA selling weeks vs the developer.


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## bobpark56

dioxide45 said:


> It was included but somehow I forgot to add it to the combined PDF I created on Adobe.com. I have updated my original post with the chart and the updated version is in this one too.


Hmmmm...From the MVC points chart for Westin Lagunamar, it looks like Marriott is trying to do away with Vistana's Gold week designation for the first 4 weeks of January. I think I'm going to hang onto our Star Options & Home Options.


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## byeloe

bobpark56 said:


> Hmmmm...From the MVC points chart for Westin Lagunamar, it looks like Marriott is trying to do away with Vistana's Gold week designation for the first 4 weeks of January. I think I'm going to hang onto our Star Options & Home Options.


That's one of the first things that we noticed also.  My wife had made that prediction awhile ago. January gold season was one of the reasons that we purchased our resale mandatory units


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## Red elephant

dioxide45 said:


> I got the impression from our last sales presentation that they were nearly out of Westin Flex. THey seemed to be scraping bottom. They will transition over to selling Abound Club Points and talk those up like they are the greatest thing and how Flex plain sucks...


Haha so true . Today they said club points was too expensive and requires too many points to go anywhere. Sheraton flex was it.


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## dioxide45

bobpark56 said:


> Hmmmm...From the MVC points chart for Westin Lagunamar, it looks like Marriott is trying to do away with Vistana's Gold week designation for the first 4 weeks of January. I think I'm going to hang onto our Star Options & Home Options.


When Marriott created the DC program way back in 2010, they did realign the values of weeks by allocating more DC points required to book them. In reality, January is more gold season than Platinum IMO. Weather can be iffy. But this is a good reason to have options and still being able to use StarOptions is a great benefit.


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## kozykritter

That's a good point. Vistana, MVC and Interval have slightly different seasonality for most MVC and Vistana properties, particularly for low and shoulder seasons and where they overlap with each other and with high seasons. By having Flex options and MVC points and access to II through both systems, I can do all kind of gymnastics back and forth to save significant options or points and stretch my vacations out further. That includes even converting to Abound points and then booking backwards to Vistana in certain circumstances, inventory pending. It's a new world of opportunities!


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## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> That's a good point. Vistana, MVC and Interval have slightly different seasonality for various MVc and Vistana properties, particularly for low and shoulder seasons and where they overlap with each other and with high seasons. By having Flex options and MVC points and access to II through both systems, I can do all kind of gymnastics back and forth to save significant options or points and stretch my vacations out further. That includes even converting to Abound points and then booking backwards to Vistana in certain circumstances, inventory pending. It's a new world of opportunities!


Another good thing, is if II exhcnage fees go away for Vistana to Vistana or Vistana to Marriott HomeOption based trades, it would always be good to look at II to see if there is inventory there before just doing an Abound or StarOption reservation. In quite a few cases, the amount of HomeOptions needed for an II trade are less than the number of StarOptions through VSN. Right now there is a $164 fee, but in the future that should be $0.


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## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> Another good thing, is if II exhcnage fees go away for Vistana to Vistana or Vistana to Marriott HomeOption based trades, it would always be good to look at II to see if there is inventory there before just doing an Abound or StarOption reservation. In quite a few cases, the amount of HomeOptions needed for an II trade are less than the number of StarOptions through VSN. Right now there is a $164 fee, but in the future that should be $0.


I wonder if they would restrict that possibility? Maybe I misunderstood it, but I thought you couldn’t use DP to book Marriott through II. I wonder if they will extend this restriction to Vistana resorts given the $0 exchange fee. Otherwise it seems to be a loophole.


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## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> I wonder if they would restrict that possibility? Maybe I misunderstood it, but I thought you couldn’t use DP to book Marriott through II. I wonder if they will extend this restriction to Vistana resorts given the $0 exchange fee. Otherwise it seems to be a loophole.


Well, you can't use DC/Abound points to trade through II into Marriott, but that restriction doesn't exist for the underlying week. Or in the case of VSN, it might not for the underlying VOI. Adding the restriction on the VOI would be taking away something we have already. I can see them restricting all Marriott and Vistana from booking with Abound points in II to other Marriott and Vistana properties, but I would think they would leave VOIs alone. Who knows.


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## kozykritter

They treat Flex VOIs like weeks rather than points since they are home options so you can use them to book anything. I don't think I've ever tried booking a Vistana week with them but I believe that you can. My brain tells me there's something that you can't book if you are a Vistana owner but I can't remember!


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## VacationForever

kozykritter said:


> They treat Flex VOIs like weeks rather than points since they are home options so you can use them to book anything. I don't think I've ever tried booking a Vistana week with them but I believe that you can. It's SOs that you can't use to book Vistana properties in II, right?


You cannot deposit SOs into II, you have to deposit the original week for one or 2 lockoff sides.  I guess what Jeremy meant originally is that if you find a Vistana/Marriott week in II, then you use a Vistana week to exchange in II.  Since SOs is not an election, unlike in MVC DC/Abound system, where election is done the year before, you can do that with a Vistana week.


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## kozykritter

VacationForever said:


> You cannot deposit SOs into II, you have to deposit the original week for one or 2 lockoff sides.


Thanks for the reminder. I just realized that after I typed it and edited it out.


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## Red elephant

VacationForever said:


> You cannot deposit SOs into II, you have to deposit the original week for one or 2 lockoff sides.  I guess what Jeremy meant originally is that if you find a Vistana/Marriott week in II, then you use a Vistana week to exchange in II.  Since SOs is not an election, unlike in MVC DC/Abound system, where election is done the year before, you can do that with a Vistana week.


I am now understanding that if you have flex options (Westin, Sheraton, homeoptions) you can book directly thru interval for any resort and the points required are usually less than if you booked using staroptions thru VSN or DPs thru Marriott.


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## timsi

bobpark56 said:


> Hmmmm...From the MVC points chart for Westin Lagunamar, it looks like Marriott is trying to do away with Vistana's Gold week designation for the first 4 weeks of January. I think I'm going to hang onto our Star Options & Home Options.


I think January 2023 at Lagunamar was very hard to book compared to other years. Abound did not even start yet and odd things are happening already. I am very curious to see in October if those weeks show up miraculously in Abound and of course much more expensive than in VSN.


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## kozykritter

Red elephant said:


> I am now understanding that if you have flex options (Westin, Sheraton, homeoptions) you can book directly thru interval for any resort and the points required are usually less than if you booked using staroptions thru VSN or DPs thru Marriott.


Sometimes the case, sometimes not. There are some crossovers in seasonality that make it advantageous to book in your home systems rather than through II and sometimes the reverse. You just have to do all the investigating which is sort of the fun part!


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## dioxide45

Red elephant said:


> I am now understanding that if you have flex options (Westin, Sheraton, homeoptions) you can book directly thru interval for any resort and the points required are usually less than if you booked using staroptions thru VSN or DPs thru Marriott.


But you pay an exchange fee currently. So you get to keep some points, but you pay for it with cash.


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## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> But you pay an exchange fee currently. So you get to keep some points, but you pay for it with cash.


I add up all costs on both sides of the transaction and then if it's a significant difference I don't mind spending cash if it saves me points I've paid cash for or would pay cash for to rent. For example I wanted to book a holiday week that was 2900 DP. Due to seasonality differences in II, I could book that same unit with 44,000 SFlex options which would have converted to only 1,286 DP in Abound. Renting 2900 DP would have cost me $2,030 as I've used all my 2023 points for other reservations. Using Flex through II cost me $1091 including $838 option MF and $253 exchange fee/e-plus (I need flexibility for my 2023 plans due to some ongoing family situations). For me that's a big win because the bulk of the cost comes from MF that I already had to pay and I've saved about half of the cost.


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## dlca1

Do we know how timestamp/room assignment priority will work?

Something like this?

1) Owners of deeded weeks
2) Exchange via staroptions
2) Exchange via Abound
3) Interval 

(I don’t understand flex, so don’t even know where that fits in)


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## Jimmyboy

Pretty complicated trying to merge these operations and still honor the contractual obligations and make some money for themselves at the same time which can be as expected.  
Overall adding more options and flexibility for owners is a good thing if priced resonably.  I swear Universities should offer courses or even a degree in Timeshare ownership.  There are so many in and outs and pitfalls at every step.   This Forum is very helpful and understanding and sharing knowledge helping people make the right decisions on these things.


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## Jimmyboy

dlca1 said:


> Do we know how timestamp/room assignment priority will work?
> 
> Something like this?
> 
> 1) Owners of deeded weeks
> 2) Exchange via staroptions
> 2) Exchange via Abound
> 3) Interval
> 
> (I don’t understand flex, so don’t even know where that fits in)



If Abound traders can access properties with a 12 month window I would assume they have priority of a 8 month VSN exchange.


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## jabberwocky

dlca1 said:


> Do we know how timestamp/room assignment priority will work?
> 
> Something like this?
> 
> 1) Owners of deeded weeks
> 2) Exchange via staroptions
> 2) Exchange via Abound
> 3) Interval
> 
> (I don’t understand flex, so don’t even know where that fits in)


Flex and Abound will both be booking at The 12 month mark and are essentially another form of weeks ownership (just the trust/exchange holds the week).

SO come in at the 8 month mark and then external (II exchanges) would come after. So my guess is:

1) weeks owners/Flex/Abound
2) SO reservations 
3) II or other external exchanges


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## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> When Marriott created the DC program way back in 2010, they did realign the values of weeks by allocating more DC points required to book them. In reality, January is more gold season than Platinum IMO. Weather can be iffy. But this is a good reason to have options and still being able to use StarOptions is a great benefit.


They messed up by making January Gold Season, IMHO. Cabo isn't Gold in January. The average high temperature in Cancun only varies by 2 degrees from November to March. Lagunamar is uber popular in January because it takes so many fewer Staroptions. The worst weather for a whole trip we ever experienced was the one time we went in February. We go in January almost every year.


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## dioxide45

remowidget said:


> They messed up by making January Gold Season, IMHO. Cabo isn't Gold in January. The average high temperature in Cancun only varies by 2 degrees from November to March. Lagunamar is uber popular in January because it takes so many fewer Staroptions. The worst weather for a whole trip we ever experienced was the one time we went in February. We go in January almost every year.


But if January had Platinum Plus SO pricing, it would be a lot less popular.

Generally timeshare developers manipulate the points charts so they can get more points from a room to then be able to sell more points and make more revenue. I suspect this is why Cabo has higher point pricing as it was sold as pure points, Aventuras.


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## remowidget

dioxide45 said:


> But if January had Platinum Plus SO pricing, it would be a lot less popular.
> 
> Generally timeshare developers manipulate the points charts so they can get more points from a room to then be able to sell more points and make more revenue. I suspect this is why Cabo has higher point pricing as it was sold as pure points, Aventuras.


Maybe... I just checked and Abound values Cabo above Lagunamar across the board. Weird.


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## Palmtreelady1

Is there a chart on what our weeks are worth in the Marriott world. I own Sheraton Vistana in February and will I be able to ever use any of the Marriott properties? It is all very confusing.


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## dioxide45

Palmtreelady1 said:


> Is there a chart on what our weeks are worth in the Marriott world. I own Sheraton Vistana in February and will I be able to ever use any of the Marriott properties? It is all very confusing.


THis is the best we have so far.








						Vistana to Abound Point Conversion Tracker
					

I have started to create a conversion tracker to keep track of the amount of points allocaetd to each VOI. I know everything right now is still speculation or information gleaned from attending a sales presentation, but at some point I suspect we will get official numbers. For now we can start...




					tugbbs.com


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## ndang3

Benefit chart attached from my sales guy.


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## dioxide45

ndang3 said:


> Benefit chart attached from my sales guy.


It looks like the only major changes are to banking and converting to Bonvoy. It also looks like they are staying Bonvoy will never expire where currently they had a 6 year expiration that was never really enforced.

It looks like they will cut down the two year banking to only one year and 1.5 years for Presidential and below. This is a pretty big hit to lower tier owners.

I know it is a bad value, and we still are not 100% sure how mandatory will be able to actually enroll, but I wonder if the ability to convert to Bonvoy will be there for those Abound enrolled (but unqualified) mandatory VOIs. IN 2010, MVC resale weeks that enrolled in DC could start to elect Bonvoy points where they couldn't previously.


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## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> It looks like the only major changes are to the banking deadline for what was 5*



That part is minor since if you had a week 52 reservation, you still needed to cancel by Oct 31 to be able to bank it. But it was definitely nice to keep them in the account till after Christmas in case of a last minute trip.

But seems like they also change the banked Staroption expiration. Didn't it use to be 2 years for everyone? Now it's in line with DC Points - 12, 18 and 24 months (latter only for Chairman). This change affects most owners except 5-Star.

I thought they said you won't be worse off???

This is from VSN Rules and regulations:

*Bank, Banking or Banked means the act of depositing the Network Member’s StarOptions from the current Use Year with Network Operator in order to save them for use in the next two succeeding Use Years.



*


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## ndang3

DanCali said:


> That part os minor since if you had a week 52 reservation, you still needed to cancel by Oct 31 to be able to bank it.
> 
> But seems like they also change the banked Staroption expiration. Didn't it use to be 2 years for everyone? Now it's in line with DC Points - 12, 18 and 24 months (latter only for Chairman).
> 
> I thought they said you won't be worse off???


That’s what I thought too. Don’t like the 1.5 year banking duration. I’m hoping that is only if you put your VSN SO into Abound. If you leave everything in VSN maybe it will still be 2 years? Going to talk to my guy sometime this week to learn more.


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## DanCali

And here is what allows them to do it (except they did say people won't be worse off with Abound)


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## robertk2012

Looks like the late checkout is gone.....


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## DanCali

robertk2012 said:


> Looks like the late checkout is gone.....






ndang3 said:


> That’s what I thought too. Don’t like the 1.5 year banking duration. I’m hoping that is only if you put your VSN SO into Abound. If you leave everything in VSN maybe it will still be 2 years? Going to talk to my guy sometime this week to learn more.




I agree - even though I am 5-Star and find the Oct 31 deadline vs Dec 31 deadline minor, it's a bit frustrating. The late checkout was also a nice bonus to have, though they ignored it during covid.

Given that I already have enough MVC weeks that I can elect points with, I anticipate converting WKV to Abound points approximately never. I don't see a point in enrolling them and giving up any prior benefit if I can help it.


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## dioxide45

Here is the current VSN chart showing the dates as they are now.


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## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> I don't see a point in enrolling them and giving up any prior benefit if I can help it.


It actually looks like you will have to opt-out (however that works and if you actually can). Enrollment looks like it will be automatic with the option to opt-out.


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## DanCali

robertk2012 said:


> Looks like the late checkout is gone.....



Deadline to elect Bonvoy points also worse... not that anyone here uses that.


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## ndang3

dioxide45 said:


> It actually looks like you will have to opt-out (however that works and if you actually can). Enrollment looks like it will be automatic with the option to opt-out.


Where did you see this and the eliminated late check out which was at what time anyway?


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## DanCali

In the words of their CEO on Investor Day 6/16/2022:

Transcript by Rev.com Page 15 of 48 (https://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/static-files/c255b213-f4b8-4090-9cfc-587aef00af3b)

_Steve Weisz:
I'll start with the first part and then we'll ask Lori to chime in on the second part. There is no question that when you have three different platforms, whether it be Marriott Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or Sheraton Vacation Club, they were all started in different iterations, different currencies, etc. Trying to find the common denominator between those and* make sure that no one is disadvantaged as a result of joining Abound, which in fact is just another overlay. It’s another use option that you have.* _ 

Looking at the chart below, along with the 2-year Staroptions banking for all VSN members, and some of the other deadline in the document dioxide45 uploaded, I beg to differ...


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## DanCali

ndang3 said:


> Where did you see this and the eliminated late check out which was at what time anyway?



Late checkout is 12pm. Seems minor, but if you have a flight at 4pm and can stay in the room 2 extra hours it can make the difference of an extra 1/2 day at the beach... Otherwise we typically just have breakfast and leave. FWIW there is also 2pm early checkin, which is much less reliable during peak times. Both of those are (were?) just for 5-Star.

Late checkout is not listed as a benefit and therefore we have to assume it's gone. It never existed in MVC and everything else now seems aligned, with some legacy SVN things like banking dates and banked SOs expiration worse than they were.

I suspect the 1-year banking will be a deal breaker for many who might be eligible to enroll but not excited about the program.


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## tomvc

Banking not disadvantage for first few years of integration.  There's a footnote in VSN club points benefits posted by @ndang3.       

* The new StarOptions banking use periods will apply to StarOptions banked beginning in 2025.


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## DanCali

tomvc said:


> Banking not disadvantage for first few years of integration. There's a footnote in VSN club points benefits posted by @ndang3.
> 
> * The new StarOptions banking use periods will apply to StarOptions banked beginning in 2025.



I saw that too. But it will be a disadvantage after two years…

It doesn't cure the problem, just weakens the pain for a while.


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## Mulege

timsi said:


> I think January 2023 at Lagunamar was very hard to book compared to other years. Abound did not even start yet and odd things are happening already. I am very curious to see in October if those weeks show up miraculously in Abound and of course much more expensive than in VSN.





dioxide45 said:


> But if January had Platinum Plus SO pricing, it would be a lot less popular.
> 
> Generally timeshare developers manipulate the points charts so they can get more points from a room to then be able to sell more points and make more revenue. I suspect this is why Cabo has higher point pricing as it was sold as pure points, Aventuras.



Can Marriott change Lagunamar January from Gold to Platinum season?


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## robertk2012

Might be a new program by then.....



DanCali said:


> I saw that too. But it will be a disadvantage after two years…
> 
> It doesn't cure the problem, just weakens the pain for a while.


----------



## kozykritter

DanCali said:


> And here is what allows them to do it (except they did say people won't be worse off with Abound)
> 
> View attachment 63267


So basically John Ruble was lying when he said that in synching up benefits between the two programs, they would lean towards adopting the more generous policy, specifically when it came to banking. All they did was to take Marriott benefit policies and apply them to VSN. Admittedly I feel let down by the results... Damn my eternal optimism!


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## kozykritter

Everyone, they posted a very long list of detailed FAQs about Abound and VSN changes which you can link to off your dashboard when you log in to vistana.com.Mandatory resales before 8/9 are eligible to elect bound and also have their ownership count towards elite levels. They removed the language about them being given the opportunity and have just changed it to they are able to. There's no mention of any kind of enrollment or purchase requirement.


----------



## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> Everyone, they posted a very long list of detailed FAQs about Abound and VSN changes, etc. Mandatory resales before 8/9 are eligible to elect bound and also have their ownership count towards elite levels. They removed the language about them being given the opportunity and have just changed it to they are able to. There's no mention of any kind of enrollment or purchase requirement. Go to your dashboard, scroll down to the bottom and click on site map, then click on important information under the Abound category, and then click on FAQ.



Site seems to be flooded right now and won't open - did you happen to copy the FAQs?


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## kozykritter

I was going to but it is way too long...probably 50+ questions with some long answers. I put Dioxide on the task since he's so good at it


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## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> I was going to but it is way too long...probably 50+ questions with some long answers. I put Dioxide on the task since he's so good at it



That's probably why it's not working...


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## remowidget

Deleted


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## DeniseM

*NEW THREAD HERE:  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/n...ew-abound-vsn-documents-posted-online.343214/*


----------

