# Does anyone have a copy of the recent email Wyndham sent to owners alleging commercial use violations?



## HitchHiker71 (May 18, 2022)

All,

I'm continuing to pursue the issue that came up a few weeks ago whereby certain Wyndham owners started receiving emails alleging commercial use - along with a supporting attachment of the formal letter - and a certified letter sent to the owners in question.  I'm posting an image copy of the email I received from the FB forums - but I'm looking for a few brave souls who received this email and are willing to forward/attach the original email received to me for follow up with Wyndham as I'm alleging the format of the email was rather disturbing and hastily put together with grammatical errors and written in such a way that it really looked like a phishing email by all accounts.  My Wyndham contact was surprised when I shared the image with her and is looking for an actual received email to pursue this further.  Feel free to PM me here on TUG if you are willing to assist in my efforts.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 18, 2022)

So maybe it's fake?


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## Sandi Bo (May 18, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> So maybe it's fake?


Whatever.... mission accomplished, I would say.


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## paxsarah (May 18, 2022)

My sense is it was not fake, but the fact that the email accompanying the attachment was poorly edited/proofread made some people think it looked sketchy. I saw one person on FB claim something like "A real Wyndham rep would never sign their name with only a last initial, so it must be fake." (Nevermind that I've received emails from Wyndham reps with full last names and with just last initials, which could be dependent on their department.) Presumably recipients of the email have since received the postal letter it promised, or we would certainly have heard otherwise by now.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 18, 2022)

There are some pretty clever scammers out there.  Answering the email may not go to Wyndham and may go to a lawyer or an exit company.  Older people seem to be duped easily with emails as they age.  I am 67 and hope I don't go down the road of answering scam emails.


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## paxsarah (May 18, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> There are some pretty clever scammers out there.  Answering the email may not go to Wyndham and may go to a lawyer or an exit company.  Older people seem to be duped easily with emails as they age.  I am 67 and hope I don't go down the road of answering scam emails.


Seems awfully elaborate to get someone to sign an agreement that they won't engage in commercial activity. Technically, the email was just a heads up that the postal letter would be coming. At least one person on FB confirmed they received the postal letter afterward. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Ty1on (May 18, 2022)

I believe it was entirely fake.  "Respond to this email with the best phone number to reach you."  LOL

Edit:  IF not fake, embarrassingly amateur.


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## HitchHiker71 (May 18, 2022)

It's not fake - hence my ask.  We have several people who opened the attachment and it's legit.  I just need the actual email itself for follow up purposes.


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## Ty1on (May 18, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> Seems awfully elaborate to get someone to sign an agreement that they won't engage in commercial activity. Technically, the email was just a heads up that the postal letter would be coming. At least one person on FB confirmed they received the postal letter afterward. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯




Shill?


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## paxsarah (May 18, 2022)

Ty1on said:


> Edit: IF not fake, embarrassingly amateur.


And I think the entire point of Hitchhiker's communications about this with Wyndham is to address their embarrassing amateurness. It should not be shocking at this point that Wyndham has handled an issue without professionalism or polish.


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## needhelp (May 18, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> It's not fake - hence my ask.  We have several people who opened the attachment and it's legit.  I just need the actual email itself for follow up purposes.


It has all the signs of a phishing email. I'm sure their IT department sends them warning about replying to these types of emails.


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## paxsarah (May 18, 2022)

While we’re talking about emails that look like phishing but aren’t, how bout those autopay confirmation emails? (I know it’s a totally different group than Hitchhiker is talking to, but those just look terrible.)


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## Mongoose (May 18, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> All,
> 
> I'm continuing to pursue the issue that came up a few weeks ago whereby certain Wyndham owners started receiving emails alleging commercial use - along with a supporting attachment of the formal letter - and a certified letter sent to the owners in question.  I'm posting an image copy of the email I received from the FB forums - but I'm looking for a few brave souls who received this email and are willing to forward/attach the original email received to me for follow up with Wyndham as I'm alleging the format of the email was rather disturbing and hastily put together with grammatical errors and written in such a way that it really looked like a phishing email by all accounts.  My Wyndham contact was surprised when I shared the image with her and is looking for an actual received email to pursue this further.  Feel free to PM me here on TUG if you are willing to assist in my efforts.
> 
> View attachment 55257


What was the extension/domain of the email address it came from?


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## rickandcindy23 (May 18, 2022)

@jules54 got this email and thought it looked a bit fishy.  I would bet she can forward it to you.


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## Sandi Bo (May 18, 2022)

Perhaps IT could check their sent email queue  (no charge for this free advice).


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## raygo123 (May 18, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> And I think the entire point of Hitchhiker's communications about this with Wyndham is to address their embarrassing amateurness. It should not be shocking at this point that Wyndham has handled an issue without professionalism or polish.


Hey hey don't give polish people a bad name!

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk


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## amycurl (May 18, 2022)

I hope that someone at Wyndham is paying Hitchhiker for his labor on their behalf. Because, honestly? Doing that work/research should be someone's paid job. *sigh*


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## HitchHiker71 (May 19, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> And I think the entire point of Hitchhiker's communications about this with Wyndham is to address their embarrassing amateurness. It should not be shocking at this point that Wyndham has handled an issue without professionalism or polish.



That is exactly what I'm doing.  The contact I'm working with had never seen the actual email.  They approved the contents of the attached letters and the formal comms - but not the emails involved.  I sent a generic format of the email as proof - and the ask was to see an actual email from an actual owner to validate.  I was rather direct with my analysis of the email - it was horrendous - and I've been working directly in email security for 20+ years now - so I speak from a career's worth of experience with domain expertise in phishing emails.  This email had several phishing red flags as follows - here's what I actually sent to Wyndham on this matter:



> Any/all SAT - Security Awareness Training - that most public companies are required to have their employees take on a regular (usually annualized) basis teaches the following concepts when it comes to determining whether an email is a phishing attempt:
> 
> Link to the guidance pasted below:  https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/how-recognize-and-avoid-phishing-scams
> 
> ...


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## Sandi Bo (May 19, 2022)

Thanks @HitchHiker71   This is the same organization that prints your account number on your portfolio when you check out of a resort. Yes, I brought that concern to Michael Brown's office, they were not concerned.


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## jules54 (May 19, 2022)

Sandi of course they aren’t concerned it’s not their account lol.


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## Eric B (May 19, 2022)

While we're on the subject of seriously questionable email practices, I just got an email from Club Wyndham about the latest edition of Destinations magazine being available.  It had a link that wound up being to the Summer 2019 WorldMark version rather than a current Club Wyndham edition.  Just how bad are their internal controls on communications?  Is there any way to get them to understand how much they need to do to be taken seriously?


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## Rolltydr (May 19, 2022)

I received the same email as did probably several thousand other owners.


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## Sandi Bo (May 19, 2022)

And I did not (get the Destinations email).  I rarely do. I get my confirmations (usually), surveys after a stay (usually), portolios at checkout (sometimes), and usually follow up to tickets. But not the Destinations email or emails to presidential owners, etc.   I will, however, likely get 5 copies of the Destinations magazine in the mail. Thanks for the heads up.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 19, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> I received the same email as did probably several thousand other owners.


But you do not rent.  So I think it's phishing.  The certified letter could be part of a phishing expedition as well, for those who answer the letter.  They are looking for dupes.  

My stepdad is 87.  He just got back from a six-week stay in Georgia with his daughters.  I got his mail often and went through it and threw away all of the ads, etc.  But there were some I was unsure about because there was no information on the envelope, just his name and a return address.  I didn't want to throw out anything that would be important.  

He called us yesterday after going through his mail and said he got this letter that looked like it was from his reverse mortgage company.  He actually called the number and must have sounded incredibly confused over the phone because the company hung up on him.  It was a home warranty company.  He kept asking if they were calling for insurance on his reverse mortgage. 

Rick's stepmom was sharp when it came to junk mail and solicitations, except those last few years.  Same with my Grandma.  She suddenly fell for everything.  

I hope I don't lose my attachment to reality when I am 87.


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## Eric B (May 19, 2022)

Ok, just got the same Destinations magazine link from WorldMark, but it’s still 3 years late for the Summer 2019 issue.  How hosed up are they throughout the entire staff there?


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## Rolltydr (May 19, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> But you do not rent.  So I think it's phishing.  The certified letter could be part of a phishing expedition as well, for those who answer the letter.  They are looking for dupes.
> 
> My stepdad is 87.  He just got back from a six-week stay in Georgia with his daughters.  I got his mail often and went through it and threw away all of the ads, etc.  But there were some I was unsure about because there was no information on the envelope, just his name and a return address.  I didn't want to throw out anything that would be important.
> 
> ...


Just to clarify in case there is confusion. I didn’t receive the (phishing) email that HitchHiker71 is asking about. I do not rent and there would have been no reason for anyone to send that email to me. I did receive the quarterly (I think) Destinations email Eric referred to with the 3 year old link in it. As far as I can tell, renting or not renting, has nothing to do with the Destinations email. It’s simply a ridiculous mistake made by someone, actually probably several someones, at Wyndham. If I had let something like that get by at my old communications job, I would have either been seriously demoted or fired.


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## Mongoose (May 19, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Ok, just got the same Destinations magazine link from WorldMark, but it’s still 3 years late for the Summer 2019 issue.  How hosed up are they throughout the entire staff there?


Lol, I got the same thing.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 19, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> Just to clarify in case there is confusion. I didn’t receive the (phishing) email that HitchHiker71 is asking about. I do not rent and there would have been no reason for anyone to send that email to me. I did receive the quarterly (I think) Destinations email Eric referred to with the 3 year old link in it. As far as I can tell, renting or not renting, has nothing to do with the Destinations email. It’s simply a ridiculous mistake made by someone, actually probably several someones, at Wyndham. If I had let something like that get by at my old communications job, I would have either been seriously demoted or fired.


I misundersstood!  Sorry about that.  I didn't get the letter.  I also didn't get the magazine link.


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## Eric B (May 19, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I misundersstood!  Sorry about that.  I didn't get the letter.  I also didn't get the magazine link.



… give it a few years….


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## HitchHiker71 (May 20, 2022)

Just providing a quick update on this thread that I've had two owners send me their actual emails for this topic privately - and I have submitted those emails to Wyndham for their analysis and consideration.  If I receive any updates that I can share publicly - I will post them here on this thread.


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## Mongoose (May 20, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Just providing a quick update on this thread that I've had two owners send me their actual emails for this topic privately - and I have submitted those emails to Wyndham for their analysis and consideration.  If I receive any updates that I can share publicly - I will post them here on this thread.


Pretty easy to check, what is the email smtp domain the came from?


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## LAYGO (May 20, 2022)

Mongoose said:


> Pretty easy to check, what is the email smtp domain the came from?


That is easy to fake too.


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## HitchHiker71 (May 20, 2022)

Mongoose said:


> Pretty easy to check, what is the email smtp domain the came from?



It's very easy to spoof the sending domain - it's even feasible to spoof the sending IP address - though that's a bit harder to do.  The sending domain was wyn.com.  The legitimacy of the emails sent is no longer in question to be clear.


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## paxsarah (May 20, 2022)

Again, the issue is not that the email is fake - it's real. The issue is that the email was sloppy enough to _look_ fake (or raise red flags), and Hitchhiker is following up with Wyndham on the resulting owner reaction and encourage them to communicate better in the future.


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## LAYGO (May 20, 2022)

I read the situation like this . . . and from 23yrs in the tech industry . . . and 3 years consulting with a travel MLM. They've got THE CHEAPEST people they can working there. They want just enough to get the job done & a lot of times they don't care about it enough, only to get the next "thing" ready to send. As long as it's making money, they'll keep delivering the results as is. Also, for the most part, they've already "got your money", so delivering "the best" isn't their goal . . . just enough so you don't quit & not a penny more.

I spent 3 years consulting with a travel MLM where my team of 4-5 out delivered their full time staff of 6-8. They had ONE good person. Our Scrum Master was constantly trying to get their people to improve. We gave a task to one of their full time employees that should've taken 2-3 days . . . it took them 2 weeks. 

Everything being described as how Wyndham is handling things tech-wise or policies reminds me of my time there.


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## Mongoose (May 20, 2022)

LAYGO said:


> That is easy to fake too.


Actually checking the domain is easy to verify something is fake.  It’s more difficult to prove something is real.  Most spoofing is done with a fake domain that is easy to rule out.


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## ladawgfan (May 21, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> Again, the issue is not that the email is fake - it's real. The issue is that the email was sloppy enough to _look_ fake (or raise red flags), and Hitchhiker is following up with Wyndham on the resulting owner reaction and encourage them to communicate better in the future.


So has it been determined for sure the email was real? Did Wyndham verify that? I’m confused as to whether this is another attempt by Wyndham to curtail “commercial use guest reservations” or a follow up from their previous correspondence. Did this go to a second group of “violators.” Other than the policy enforcement changes that occurred following the first group of letters, I don’t know of anyone that Wyndham took additional individual actions against.


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## Jan M. (May 21, 2022)

ladawgfan said:


> So has it been determined for sure the email was real? Did Wyndham verify that? I’m confused as to whether this is another attempt by Wyndham to curtail “commercial use guest reservations” or a follow up from their previous correspondence. Did this go to a second group of “violators.” Other than the policy enforcement changes that occurred following the first group of letters, I don’t know of anyone that Wyndham took additional individual actions against.



Here on Tug or in the Facebook groups we've not heard that anyone who previously received a certified letter got this email.

What we did hear was that some owners who got the email reported that they rarely even use a guest certificate.

I found it interesting that not too long after that the Wyndham Facebook group called Wyndham owners helping owners - rentals welcome dropped the rentals welcome part of the name. Since that group was where I saw the posts about the emails and the group has 38,000+ members I wondered if anyone who wasn't in that group received the email.

Edited: One person in that group said they received a certified letter 10 years ago. Not sure if they got this email too nor if they've continued to rent.


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## paxsarah (May 22, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> Since that group was where I saw all the posts about the emails and the group has 38,000+ members I wondered if anyone who wasn't in that group received the email.


I first saw it in a different Wyndham FB group. But I wouldn't be surprised if most/all of the recipients this go-round were from the various FB groups because it's the lowest hanging fruit in terms of matching a rental offering under a real name with that name on an owner's account, with dates and potentially even the renter's name (if interest was expressed in comments versus DMs). And it certainly seems like Wyndham has expanded their reach with this letter to any publicly posted rental they can tie back to an owner, even just one posting.

I have to admit, I'm a little shocked at how many rental postings I continue to see in that group after the discussion of the letters.


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## HitchHiker71 (May 22, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> Here on Tug or in the Facebook groups we've not heard that anyone who previously received a certified letter got this email.
> 
> What we did hear was that some owners who got the email reported that they rarely even use a guest certificate.
> 
> ...



Several users in the Owners helping Owners group received the email in question.  Several posted about it in that group as well.  I cannot comment on the specifics of the reasoning as to why the "Rentals welcome" was dropped other than to say it was intentional due to legitimate reports of some owners being targeted who only post rentals in that specific FB group.  That is as much as I'm prepared to state publicly on this topic at present.  Several of these same owners also did in fact receive the follow up certified letters - but they have chosen _not _to publicize the fact that they did receive the follow up certified letters - as they are under no obligation to do so and quite frankly it would likely be unwise to do so for various reasons.


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## RENTER (Jun 22, 2022)

I was informed by other owners that they received a second notice this week about their renting and their accounts were suspended this week for 90 days and their guest reservations cancelled during those 90 days


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## WManning (Jun 23, 2022)

RENTER said:


> I was informed by other owners that they received a second notice this week about their renting and their accounts were suspended this week for 90 days and their guest reservations cancelled during those 90 days


Sounds like Wyndham is putting a squeeze on thier competition!


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 23, 2022)

RENTER said:


> I was informed by other owners that they received a second notice this week about their renting and their accounts were suspended this week for 90 days and their guest reservations cancelled during those 90 days



We have reports this week of additional notices going out as well.  I haven't seen one firsthand - but we have fielded reports on the FB groups of additional notices.  What I don't know is whether these owners received emails - or they only received official notices via certified mail.  I was told that the emails originally sent would not continue given how badly those emails were formatted - so if emails were used again - I would like to know so that I can follow up with my Wyndham contacts with further evidence in hand.


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## cbyrne1174 (Jun 26, 2022)

I'm genuinely confused. How are rentals not allowed? Wyndham literally has a website for you to use to rent out the points that you can't use. How is that legally any different from finding a buyer yourself?


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## geist1223 (Jun 26, 2022)

Does Wyndham get a Cut if you use their Site?


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## CO skier (Jun 26, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> How is that legally any different from finding a buyer yourself?


Maybe it is and maybe it is not.  Filing a lawsuit is the only way to find out.  Good luck with that.


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## Sandy VDH (Jun 27, 2022)

geist1223 said:


> Does Wyndham get a Cut if you use their Site?


 Yes 40% is the commission.  And that is on only what days they rent.  You may give them a week, but they rent 3 days only.  









						Club Wyndham Plus Owner Rental by Extra Holidays
					

Rent your timeshare with Extra Holidays today! List your unused Club Wyndham vacation time for rental & don't let your credits expire!




					www.extraholidays.com


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## geist1223 (Jun 27, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> Yes 40% is the commission.  And that is on only what days they rent.  You may give them a week, but they rent 3 days only.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes what I thought. The same horrible option they offer Worldmark Owners.


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## chapjim (Jun 27, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I'm genuinely confused. How are rentals not allowed? Wyndham literally has a website for you to use to rent out the points that you can't use. How is that legally any different from finding a buyer yourself?



It's _malum prohibitum.  _It's wrong because Wyndham says it's wrong.


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## chapjim (Jun 27, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> Yes 40% is the commission.  And that is on only what days they rent.  You may give them a week, but they rent 3 days only.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's actually a little more than 40%.  There's an additional charge called General Fees and Commissions (?).  On my one and only EH transaction, it was an additional 1.8% so I will get 58.2% of the Gross Revenue.  So says the statement.  I haven't been paid yet (rental was May 7-14).


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 27, 2022)

Wyndham is bullying owners who rent, while Wyndham still rents and people are okay with that.  Bullies always have those who want the big bully to like them, so they won't criticize the bully, but they will criticize the target of the bully.


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## Rolltydr (Jun 27, 2022)

chapjim said:


> It's _malum prohibitum.  _It's wrong because Wyndham says it's wrong.


Yes. Wyndham makes the rules and we all agree to that when we sign the contract.


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## paxsarah (Jun 27, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Wyndham is bullying owners who rent, while Wyndham still rents and people are okay with that.  Bullies always have those who want the big bully to like them, so they won't criticize the bully, but they will criticize the target of the bully.


I'm not saying I'm okay or not okay with it, but it's _legally_ okay and Wyndham makes the rules and there's nothing I can change about it. I could sever the relationship if I find I can't handle it anymore. Owner-renters don't really bother me, Wyndham renting doesn't really bother me. But Wyndham is the boss, everything is subject to change, it's their playground.


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## tschwa2 (Jun 27, 2022)

There was a report of someone getting the original email (the messed up one) after using a single guest cert for the year.  Has there been some sort of consensus about the number of guest certs used/annual rentals before an actual lock down is made?  Is it 30, 50, or more or even less than that.  While yes Wyndham does offer to rent through extra holidays does anyone think that any individual is renting dozens of reservations through that outlet?


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 27, 2022)

tschwa2 said:


> There was a report of someone getting the original email (the messed up one) after using a single guest cert for the year.  Has there been some sort of consensus about the number of guest certs used/annual rentals before an actual lock down is made?  Is it 30, 50, or more or even less than that.  While yes Wyndham does offer to rent through extra holidays does anyone think that any individual is renting dozens of reservations through that outlet?



From what we have observed - it's not a matter of volume with respect to the most recent batch of emails/letters.  It's whether that owner had ever publicly advertised on a FB group or another third party forum (Redweek, TUG, etc.).  Specifically it seems that many owners simply download the images from the Wyndham website - which is a violation of the T&Cs explicitly - when posting these advertisements.  These are the owners that were targeted most recently.  Don't ask me explicitly how this is occurring as I don't have that information (and likely never will).  So if you have _ever _advertised your Wyndham rentals publicly yourself over the past few years (best estimate) and Wyndham can somehow connect those dots back to your ownership account - this may trigger what is being described in this thread.  This is pure speculation on my part, but I believe there's a third party being used to perform these account associations that is quite good at connecting said dots.

If any of my assertions are correct - then deleting your old rental threads would be highly recommended.  Same on the FB groups and other third party forums - if you can delete the rental thread once you have found a renter - do it.  Don't leave your history on the internet.  Granted - there's ways around this - but it can't hurt.


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## paxsarah (Jun 27, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> It's whether that owner had ever publicly advertised on a FB group or another third party forum (Redweek, TUG, etc.).


And I continue to be...


paxsarah said:


> I have to admit, I'm a little shocked at how many rental postings I continue to see in that group after the discussion of the letters.


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## tschwa2 (Jun 27, 2022)

then you would think that wyndham would also target Koala and Redweek with some kind of threats as well.  

I am also surprised that some people received the letters after one or two while there are others that seem to advertise much more frequently.  When bluegreen was going after people two things that triggered it were the use of copyrighted pictures and descriptions and/or having a dedicated website or facebook page dedicated to a rental "business"


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Jun 27, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> From what we have observed - it's not a matter of volume with respect to the most recent batch of emails/letters.  It's whether that owner had ever publicly advertised ....... Specifically it seems that many owners simply download the images from the Wyndham website - which is a violation of the T&Cs explicitly - when posting these advertisements.  These are the owners that were targeted most recently.
> 
> Don't ask me explicitly how this is occurring as I don't have that information (and likely never will).  So if you have _ever _advertised your Wyndham rentals publicly yourself over the past few years (best estimate) and Wyndham can somehow connect those dots back to your ownership account - this may trigger what is being described in this thread.  This is pure speculation on my part, but I believe there's a third party being used to perform these account associations that is quite good at connecting said dots. .......



Hi @HitchHiker71 (& all readers.)
I would assume downloading images likely violates "intellectual property rights".
T&C may have also added specific language on the use of images.

Re: A third party scanning the internet for Wyndham proprietary images & pictures
Here is a recent TUG lounge thread about the "Grifting Granny" with three Social Security names was nabbed via facial recognition technology
when she renewed (one of) her NYS drivers licence's.
Grifting Granny nabbed

Isn't technology wonderful.
LOL


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## paxsarah (Jun 27, 2022)

tschwa2 said:


> then you would think that wyndham would also target Koala and Redweek with some kind of threats as well.


Do Koala and Redweek use real first and last names in ads? Because the fruit is hanging extremely low on Facebook in that regard. I'm sure Wyndham will/would/are looking at the other services as well, but they're obviously not going to hold off on going for the easy pickings on Facebook in the meantime. I would guess owners who use points managers (assuming there are still any) also have a buffer right now, but Wyndham may find a way around it.


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## Sandy VDH (Jun 27, 2022)

tschwa2 said:


> then you would think that wyndham would also target Koala .... with some kind of threats as well.



There are two ways that you could use Koala.  Putting up an ad, which identifies you  (at least by your first name) and what you are renting, or using the Wyndham Hub, in which your name does not appear, as you are fulfulling an existing request and not placing an ad.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 27, 2022)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Hi @HitchHiker71 (& all readers.)
> I would assume downloading images likely violates "intellectual property rights".
> T&C may have also added specific language on the use of images.
> 
> ...



Section 5 of the Terms of Use for the Web Services:  https://clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com/us/en/terms-of-use

Screenshot below for ease of reference:


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## tschwa2 (Jun 27, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> Do Koala and Redweek use real first and last names in ads? Because the fruit is hanging extremely low on Facebook in that regard. I'm sure Wyndham will/would/are looking at the other services as well, but they're obviously not going to hold off on going for the easy pickings on Facebook in the meantime. I would guess owners who use points managers (assuming there are still any) also have a buffer right now, but Wyndham may find a way around it.


No I was thinking that wyndham could lean on those companies the same way Interval leans on them not to advertise exchanges because it violates the non commercial use terms.


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## cbyrne1174 (Jun 27, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Section 5 of the Terms of Use for the Web Services:  https://clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com/us/en/terms-of-use
> 
> Screenshot below for ease of reference:
> 
> View attachment 59006



You can easily get non copywright pics by using google and clicking the resort photos and sort by the ones taken by the resort guests.


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## MaryBella7 (Jun 27, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> It's whether that owner had ever publicly advertised on a FB group or another third party forum
> 
> If any of my assertions are correct - then deleting your old rental threads would be highly recommended.  Same on the FB groups and other third party forums - if you can delete the rental thread once you have found a renter - do it.  Don't leave your history on the internet.  Granted - there's ways around this - but it can't hurt.



I don’t rent out my points, I usually run out, but I have rented from other owners - mainly because I ran out. I would recommend NOT using your full legal name on any forum you use for renting and conduct all rental discussions via PM at minimum, so potential renter names are also not publicly identifiable. Delete after rental is complete. Make sure the other party knows why. The problem of course with that is trust, unfortunately.


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## Jan M. (Jun 27, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I'm genuinely confused. How are rentals not allowed? Wyndham literally has a website for you to use to rent out the points that you can't use. How is that legally any different from finding a buyer yourself?



That's a question many owners have asked. I've said that I'm sure Wyndham expects to be challenged on this and that their legal team is very hard at work on trying to prepare a defense.

They better hope their legal team is a whole lot better than their IT team. Lol


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## noreenkate (Jun 27, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> They better hope their legal team is a whole lot better than their IT team. Lol



Oh now that was funny


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## RENTER (Jun 29, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> That's a question many owners have asked. I've said that I'm sure Wyndham expects to be challenged on this and that their legal team is very hard at work on trying to prepare a defense.
> 
> They better hope their legal team is a whole lot better than their IT team. Lol





cbyrne1174 said:


> I'm genuinely confused. How are rentals not allowed? Wyndham literally has a website for you to use to rent out the points that you can't use. How is that legally any different from finding a buyer yourself?


There are people including myself who rent and received those letters. We fought back arguing that point and threaten to stop paying if we were not allowed to. We pointed out that the IRS and courts do not recognize renting as a commercial business. We also pointed out that Homeowner Associations constantly lose when they declare a homeowner renting a commercial business. We have all been left alone. None of our reservations were cancelled. Were we lucky or did we have a valid point which is why they left us alone? The most vocal person was the guy on Facebook who led the charge. They silenced him by removing him from the page. So, I contacted him, and he told me nothing happened, and all his reservations went thru. Because of that, he was able to get back all his money and now only uses the points for him, his family and friends and they help him pay his maintenance fees.


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## Eric B (Jun 29, 2022)

RENTER said:


> There are people including myself who rent and received those letters. We fought back arguing that point and threaten to stop paying if we were not allowed to. We pointed out that the IRS and courts do not recognize renting as a commercial business. We also pointed out that Homeowner Associations constantly lose when they declare a homeowner renting a commercial business. We have all been left alone. None of our reservations were cancelled. Were we lucky or did we have a valid point which is why they left us alone? The most vocal person was the guy on Facebook who led the charge. They silenced him by removing him from the page. So, I contacted him, and he told me nothing happened, and all his reservations went thru. Because of that, he was able to get back all his money and now only uses the points for him, his family and friends and they help him pay his maintenance fees.



Had you been advertising the rentals?  The postings from @HitchHiker71 seemed to indicate that using Wyndham's intellectual property (images, etc.) were triggers they were using.


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## bnoble (Jun 29, 2022)

RENTER said:


> We fought back arguing that point and threaten to stop paying if we were not allowed to.


In the past, that has led to foreclosure in at least a few cases. If you have any converted weeks, those can be withdrawn from the points program quickly and unilaterally. If that's what you want (or are willing to risk it) go for it.



RENTER said:


> Were we lucky or did we have a valid point which is why they left us alone?


Wyndham was not swayed by your carefully crafted legal arguments. They don't need to win in court; they hold the cards, because they can freeze your account. That puts the burden on (paying for) a court win on you. You might recover those costs, but you have to win first, and they can probably starve you out.

They just decided they had more important things to do. If they later decide you are worth the trouble of eliminating, they will do what they can to make it happen.


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## chapjim (Jun 29, 2022)

RENTER said:


> There are people including myself who rent and received those letters. We fought back arguing that point and threaten to stop paying if we were not allowed to. We pointed out that the IRS and courts do not recognize renting as a commercial business. We also pointed out that Homeowner Associations constantly lose when they declare a homeowner renting a commercial business. We have all been left alone. None of our reservations were cancelled. *Were we lucky or did we have a valid point which is why they left us alone?* The most vocal person was the guy on Facebook who led the charge. They silenced him by removing him from the page. So, I contacted him, and he told me nothing happened, and all his reservations went thru. Because of that, he was able to get back all his money and now only uses the points for him, his family and friends and they help him pay his maintenance fees.



You were lucky.


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## paxsarah (Jun 29, 2022)

bnoble said:


> In the past, that has led to foreclosure in at least a few cases. If you have any converted weeks, those can be withdrawn from the points program quickly and unilaterally. If that's what you want (or are willing to risk it) go for it.
> 
> Wyndham was not swayed by your carefully crafted legal arguments. They don't need to win in court; they hold the cards, because they can freeze your account. That puts the burden on (paying for) a court win on you. You might recover those costs, but you have to win first, and they can probably starve you out.
> 
> They just decided they had more important things to do. If they later decide you are worth the trouble of eliminating, they will do what they can to make it happen.



I mean, when the Wyndham program disclosures contain this broad a statement (emphasis mine)...


> Wyndham Vacation Resorts reserves the right at its sole and reasonable discretion to restrict CLUB WYNDHAM Plus services/access to Members who engage in behaviors that *negatively impact the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus program*, its Members and resort guests, its resort properties and/or Wyndham employees. Such behaviors include, _but are not limited to_, the use of verbally threatening language, profanity, inflammatory statements, unrestrained emotional outbursts, manipulation of the program rules and/or Wyndham employees to gain an unfair advantage, and acts of physical harm or malice toward other Members and the resort guests, resort property and/or Wyndham employees. Such restrictions may include, but are not limited to, refusal of services/access to contact center, front desk, web, and any telephonic communications with Wyndham employees. Wyndham Vacation Resorts reserves the right to enforce such restriction for periods of duration determined in its sole and reasonable discretion.


...Wyndham can pretty much define all those terms (including "commercial" used elsewhere in the program disclosures - no reason it has to match the IRS definition) and cut anyone off due to any behaviors they find to be "negative" to the program. Although the examples used here are more face-to-face in nature, they also leave the door open with the "not limited to" language - it really could be anything Wyndham doesn't like.


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## Eric B (Jun 29, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> I mean, when the Wyndham program disclosures contain this broad a statement (emphasis mine)...
> 
> ...Wyndham can pretty much define all those terms (including "commercial" used elsewhere in the program disclosures - no reason it has to match the IRS definition) and cut anyone off due to any behaviors they find to be "negative" to the program. Although the examples used here are more face-to-face in nature, they also leave the door open with the "not limited to" language - it really could be anything Wyndham doesn't like.



I'd be a bit surprised if they were to try expanding the behavior portion to include commercial activities.  Doing that would leave it a fairly unbridled power to use with a reasonable discretion.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 29, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> You can easily get non copywright pics by using google and clicking the resort photos and sort by the ones taken by the resort guests.


Technically those photos are copyrighted too, just not by a big corporation that cares. The individual guests probably won't send an email to the people using them asking them to stop. I do know that Wyndham wouldn't allow Koala to use their photos on their website, so Koala had to have their own photos taken.


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## Jan M. (Jun 29, 2022)

RENTER said:


> now only uses the points for him, his family and friends



Just may opinion but that's not a win or Wyndham backing down, that's him complying with the program restrictions as set by Wyndham. Although if he uses enough guest certificates/points on reservations for people who aren't owners on the account I wouldn't count on him not getting a second letter and having his account restricted from adding any guest names for 90 days. That's what Wyndham is doing now with the owners they've determined merited further action. If anyone is in that situation they'd be smart to proceed very carefully because Brian is is correct in what he says that I'm quoting next. 





bnoble said:


> If they later decide you are worth the trouble of eliminating, they will do what they can to make it happen.



Fwiw in the situations I know of that Wyndham recently took further action owners they still have free guest confirmations left for 2022 and didn't advertise rentals. Using your own pictures if you're continuing to rent won't save you from Wyndham taking action against you if your account gets flagged because of whatever the criteria is that they've set up in the system.

From what we know Wyndham is still continuing to send out the first time certified letters so don't think you're safe if you've renting but haven't yet received a letter. A smart person wouldn't be renting in *any* public forum right now. If you have to have the money from rentals to pay your maintenance fees now would be a good time to downsize your account to what you can manage without the money from rentals. Just a reminder of what the person with 4 accounts/65 million points who started all of this found out when the deeds/contracts she sold off reached Wyndham for them to transfer to the new owners. Wyndham contacted those people to inform them that restrictions on her account were going to be passed on to them if they opted to proceed with the transfer. Of course she had to inform everyone else she'd also sold deeds/contracts to and a good number of them chose not to proceed. In addition to having to refund their money she was back on the hook for that many more months maintenance fees while she found new buyers who were willing to accept her restrictions being placed on their account and the months while the deeds/contracts went through the whole transfer process again.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 29, 2022)

chapjim said:


> You were lucky.


I agree, but I do empathize.  

I hope no one goes on to tell me the difference between sympathize and empathize.  That happened on TUG once, when a person insisted that I couldn't empathize.  I do empathize and do know what it means.


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## bnoble (Jun 29, 2022)

What's the difference between 'sympathy' and 'empathy'?
					

Though the words appear in similar contexts, they have different meanings




					www.merriam-webster.com


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## dioxide45 (Jun 29, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> Just may opinion but that's not a win or Wyndham backing down, that's him complying with the program restrictions as set by Wyndham. Although if he uses enough guest certificates/points on reservations for people who aren't owners on the account I wouldn't count on him not getting a second letter and having his account restricted from adding any guest names for 90 days. That's what Wyndham is doing now with the owners they've determined merited further action. If anyone is in that situation they'd be smart to proceed very carefully because Brian is is correct in what he says that I'm quoting next.
> 
> Fwiw in the situations I know of that Wyndham recently took further action owners they still have free guest confirmations left for 2022 and didn't advertise rentals. Using your own pictures if you're continuing to rent won't save you from Wyndham taking action against you if your account gets flagged because of whatever the criteria is that they've set up in the system.
> 
> From what we know Wyndham is still continuing to send out the first time certified letters so don't think you're safe if you've renting but haven't yet received a letter. A smart person wouldn't be renting in *any* public forum right now. If you have to have the money from rentals to pay your maintenance fees now would be a good time to downsize your account to what you can manage without the money from rentals. Just a reminder of what the person with 4 accounts/65 million points who started all of this found out when the deeds/contracts she sold off reached Wyndham for them to transfer to the new owners. Wyndham contacted those people to inform them that restrictions on her account were going to be passed on to them if they opted to proceed with the transfer. Of course she had to inform everyone else she'd also sold deeds/contracts to and a good number of them chose not to proceed. In addition to having to refund their money she was back on the hook for that many more months maintenance fees while she found new buyers who were willing to accept her restrictions being placed on their account and the months while the deeds/contracts went through the whole transfer process again.


What were the restrictions that were to be passed on? Something over and above the normal resale restrictions/non VIP?


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 29, 2022)

So my understanding from talking to a Wyndham person (who is in charge of our account for hand-slapping purposes), Wyndham is targeting people who rent more than they use for themselves.  That is why some are targeted, while others are not.  Some people use half of their points and rent half.  Those are not the people who they are after.


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## Jan M. (Jun 29, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> What were the restrictions that were to be passed on? Something over and above the normal resale restrictions/non VIP?



They potential new owners had to state on a recorded line that they weren't buying that deed/contract for the purpose or intent to rent. That renting could/would? result in their account being suspended from the Club. They wouldn't be able to add a guest name to any reservation for a year. We've never heard for sure but the assumption is that guest confirmation restriction would apply to all the points in their account not just to the new points. I believe there was one more thing but right now I can't remember what it was. They were told that if they didn't agree to all the conditions Wyndham wouldn't transfer the deed/contract.

Something I forgot about that person's situation. Since the deeds/contracts had already been put in the new peoples names that person would have had to pay to have those deeds/contracts put back in their name.


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## chapjim (Jun 29, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> So my understanding from talking to a Wyndham person (who is in charge of our account for hand-slapping purposes), Wyndham is targeting people who rent more than they use for themselves.  That is why some are targeted, while others are not.  Some people use half of their points and rent half.  Those are not the people who they are after.



Too simplistic.  That doesn't explain owners getting whacked after using one guest confirmation.  There has to be more to it than just this.

Person1:  Where do you work?  Person2:  I work for Wyndham.  Person1:  What do you do?  Person2:  I'm a special assistant account manager for hand-slapping.


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## chapjim (Jun 29, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> They potential new owners had to state on a recorded line that they weren't buying that deed/contract for the purpose or intent to rent. That renting could/would? result in their account being suspended from the Club. They wouldn't be able to add a guest name to any reservation for a year. We've never heard for sure but the assumption is that guest confirmation restriction would apply to all the points in their account not just to the new points. I believe there was one more thing but right now I can't remember what it was. They were told that if they didn't agree to all the conditions Wyndham wouldn't transfer the deed/contract.
> 
> Something I forgot about that person's situation. Since the deeds/contracts had already been put in the new peoples names that person would have had to pay to have those deeds/contracts put back in their name.



Yikes!  No such restrictions were placed on the contracts that I sold.  ¡Gracias a Dios!


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## Jan M. (Jun 29, 2022)

chapjim said:


> Too simplistic.  That doesn't explain owners getting whacked after using one guest confirmation.  There has to be more to it than just this.



Based on what I know of two owners who had further action taken against them I have to agree with Jim.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 29, 2022)

chapjim said:


> Too simplistic.  That doesn't explain owners getting whacked after using one guest confirmation.  There has to be more to it than just this.


I know someone who was especially nasty to a person at owner services and was warned via certified letter not to do that again or their ownership with Wyndham would immediately end.  Their membership ended but I have no idea if it was because they were renting and got into trouble, or if they were angry about the Voyager changes six years ago.  Who knows?  But there are other reasons people get letters. 

I am trying to use most of our points to turn most everything over to Wyndham next year.  It's just taking up so much time and effort and worry to be in this place, between rock and hard.  Know what I mean?


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## Jan M. (Jun 29, 2022)

chapjim said:


> Yikes!  No such restrictions were placed on the contracts that I sold.  ¡Gracias a Dios!



Your account didn't have any restrictions placed on it. 

I'll stand by my advice to anyone who received the first letter. Don't put yourself at risk of receiving a second letter.  Especially if you'll need to downsize your account.


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## paxsarah (Jun 29, 2022)

Eric B said:


> I'd be a bit surprised if they were to try expanding the behavior portion to include commercial activities.  Doing that would leave it a fairly unbridled power to use with a reasonable discretion.


Commercial activities of course is in there separately:


> The Program is for a Member’s own personal use and enjoyment and not for any commercial purposes.



My point was simply that given the passage I previously quoted, any threats of legal action by owners regarding any disciplinary actions Wyndham has taken so far seem like they would be pretty easily slapped down. Or as Brian summed up, "Wyndham was not swayed by your carefully crafted legal arguments."


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## cbyrne1174 (Jun 29, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> So my understanding from talking to a Wyndham person (who is in charge of our account for hand-slapping purposes), Wyndham is targeting people who rent more than they use for themselves.  That is why some are targeted, while others are not.  Some people use half of their points and rent half.  Those are not the people who they are after.



At that point you may as well give your points back to Wyndham (unless you bought retail).


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## chapjim (Jun 29, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> *Your account didn't have any restrictions placed on it.*
> 
> I'll stand by my advice to anyone who received the first letter. Don't put yourself at risk of receiving a second letter.  Especially if you'll need to downsize your account.



It certainly seemed like it was restricted!  The October 2021 letter made it quite clear what I couldn't do.

In any event, I've seen the light!  I'm not on that sinful path.  I'm on the righteous path!


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## Jan M. (Jun 29, 2022)

chapjim said:


> It certainly seemed like it was restricted!  The October 2021 letter made it quite clear what I couldn't do.
> 
> In any event, I've seen the light!  I'm not on that sinful path.  I'm on the righteous path!



I should have said any new additional restrictions.


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## Jan M. (Jun 29, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> At that point you may as well give your points back to Wyndham (unless you bought retail).



There's no need to give resale deeds/contracts back to Wyndham. There are plenty of people who want to buy resale deeds/contracts. If those deeds/contracts are anything with low to medium maintenance fees you should be able to get more than just the closing costs, transfer fee and a few months maintenance fees.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 29, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> At that point you may as well give your points back to Wyndham (unless you bought retail).


We bought retail, kind of.  We owned Bali Hai and Shearwater and bought retail to convert, but we didn't spend $100's of 1,000's of $$$ doing it.  It was about $25,000 for Founder's Level Platinum VIP.


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## RENTER (Jul 1, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> I mean, when the Wyndham program disclosures contain this broad a statement (emphasis mine)...
> 
> ...Wyndham can pretty much define all those terms (including "commercial" used elsewhere in the program disclosures - no reason it has to match the IRS definition) and cut anyone off due to any behaviors they find to be "negative" to the program. Although the examples used here are more face-to-face in nature, they also leave the door open with the "not limited to" language - it really could be anything Wyndham doesn't like.


and no reason homeowner associations have to follow the IRS definition also and they constantly lose in the courts when they don't. Also as for being starved out, I guess people do not know about contingency fees.


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## RENTER (Jul 1, 2022)

It was a win for him. That was his plan all alone. To buy VIP and rent out to he recovers his money and then uses the points and discounts for himself, his friends and family. Same plan I have. He had over 30 guest passes go thru after receiving that letter and he started to challenge them on FB and said he would stop making payments if they cancelled any of them because they were not in the black out period and many were one bedrooms that no one else wanted. Where he was lucky was because he was renting as often as he could and paying for more guest passes because he thought towns and cities would shut down the online short term rental sites. Because of that his goal was to recover his money in 5 years and he had those remaining rentals to accomplish it which he did. He taught me and others how to do it and I followed the same plan. I just have 3 more to get thru and then I am also done with guest passes as I will then have recovered all the extra, I paid for VIP.


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## bnoble (Jul 1, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Also as for being starved out, I guess people do not know about contingency fees.


Good luck finding competent counsel who will take this on contingency.


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## paxsarah (Jul 2, 2022)

RENTER said:


> It was a win for him.


Man talks about self in third person...


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## Rolltydr (Jul 2, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> Man talks about self in third person...


Yeah, sometimes allowing guests isn’t a good idea.


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## sjdanb (Jul 2, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> All,
> 
> I'm continuing to pursue the issue that came up a few weeks ago whereby certain Wyndham owners started receiving emails alleging commercial use - along with a supporting attachment of the formal letter - and a certified letter sent to the owners in question.  I'm posting an image copy of the email I received from the FB forums - but I'm looking for a few brave souls who received this email and are willing to forward/attach the original email received to me for follow up with Wyndham as I'm alleging the format of the email was rather disturbing and hastily put together with grammatical errors and written in such a way that it really looked like a phishing email by all accounts.  My Wyndham contact was surprised when I shared the image with her and is looking for an actual received email to pursue this further.  Feel free to PM me here on TUG if you are willing to assist in my efforts.
> 
> View attachment 55257


It's always been my understanding that Wyndham owners could give/ rent at their discretion any bookings made.


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## Rolltydr (Jul 2, 2022)

sjdanb said:


> It's always been my understanding that Wyndham owners could give/ rent at their discretion any bookings made.


You misunderstand.


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## Jan M. (Jul 2, 2022)

sjdanb said:


> It's always been my understanding that Wyndham owners could give/ rent at their discretion any bookings made.



That ship has sailed.

Wyndham started the Owner Priority lists in 2020 after the resorts reopened and the lists now run through all of 2023. Owners get two exceptions per year to use for guests when any night of the stay, not the check out day, is within the dates on the Owner Priority lists. If the owner is also staying at the resort themselves when their guest is there the guest's stay doesn't use one of the two exceptions.

Last year Wyndham began identifying owners who rent and sending certified letters. Recently we've learned that owners who've continued to rent have gotten a second certified letter and are not allowed to add any guest names for three months.


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## RENTER (Jul 3, 2022)

bnoble said:


> Good luck finding competent counsel who will take this on contingency.


should be no problem if owners unite as one


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## RENTER (Jul 3, 2022)

And people who have challenged Wyndham after the 1st letter and have not booked during the blackout period have been left alone. Owners had that suspension lifted when they called Wyndham to complain. Also, Airbnb contacted those who were renting at Bonnet Creek that they Wyndham agreed to allow rentals there, but that Airbnb has to confirm that the host is a Wyndham Owner because people were claiming to be a timeshare owner when they were not. So don't let the jealous people scare you that you cannot fight back.


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## chapjim (Jul 3, 2022)

RENTER said:


> should be no problem if owners unite as one



More owners means more fees for the attorneys.  More owners does not increase the probability of a judgment in their favor.


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## RENTER (Jul 3, 2022)

chapjim said:


> More owners means more fees for the attorneys.  More owners does not increase the probability of a judgment in their favor.


I disagree. More owners who tell the story that Wyndham sales agents told them they could rent their points to help them pay for VIP helps their case. As for the lawyers making fees most owners will not care as long as they win and Wyndham is ordered to pay their legal fees and to let them out of their contract or let them continue to rent. Renting was a money maker for Wyndham since most owners broke even and were only covering their loans and MF's. Wyndham was making the money on VIP purchases; guest passes and point protection along with the free adev with new people being introduced to their resorts. That could be why they are backing down when challenged. The problem is the owners are doing as individuals and not as a group.


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## chapjim (Jul 3, 2022)

RENTER said:


> I disagree. More owners who tell the story that Wyndham sales agents told them they could rent their points to help them pay for VIP helps their case. As for the lawyers making fees most owners will not care as long as they win and Wyndham is ordered to pay their legal fees and to let them out of their contract or let them continue to rent. Renting was a money maker for Wyndham since most owners broke even and were only covering their loans and MF's. Wyndham was making the money on VIP purchases; guest passes and point protection along with the free adev with new people being introduced to their resorts. That could be why they are backing down when challenged. The problem is the owners are doing as individuals and not as a group.



Disagree if you wish but 1,000 weak cases won't win any more than one weak case.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 3, 2022)

sjdanb said:


> It's always been my understanding that Wyndham owners could give/ rent at their discretion any bookings made.


Wyndham can change its policies any time.  They changed it.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 3, 2022)

RENTER said:


> should be no problem if owners unite as one


I am not a person who wants to fight the bully.  I want to give up my lunch money and move on without getting beaten up.  That is how I see all of this.


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## Jan M. (Jul 3, 2022)

RENTER said:


> I disagree. More owners who tell the story that Wyndham sales agents told them they could rent their points to help them pay for VIP helps their case. As for the lawyers making fees most owners will not care as long as they win and Wyndham is ordered to pay their legal fees and to let them out of their contract or let them continue to rent. Renting was a money maker for Wyndham since most owners broke even and were only covering their loans and MF's. Wyndham was making the money on VIP purchases; guest passes and point protection along with the free adev with new people being introduced to their resorts. That could be why they are backing down when challenged. The problem is the owners are doing as individuals and not as a group.



*"More owners who tell the story that Wyndham sales agents told them they could rent their points to help them pay for VIP helps their case*."
No it won't, not even a little. Wyndham already has the legal precedents on their side that they aren't held accountable for what the sales people say. This group and the Facebook groups have repeatedly warned OP that it doesn't matter what the sales person told them if it's not in the paperwork they signed.

This will be just as successful as when Voyager came out effectively putting a stop to VIP owners being able to book, cancel, rebook and upgrade. I would be willing to bet there were attempted lawsuits over that. Protesting that sales people taught us how to book, cancel, rebook and upgrade, which they did, made not one iota of difference. Five years later it still comes up in the discussions and is still a sore subject with some owners.

*"most owners broke even and were only covering their loans and MF's"*
That's neither accurate or true. There were a number of owners and point managers who became knowledgeable enough about renting to make it quite profitable. Some may still be renting but that number was significantly reduced with the certified letters and the changes of last year

Every time we bought developer, all 8 times from 2002 to 2022, the commercial prohibition clause has always been in the paperwork. In recent months OP have posted several places it appears in the club governing rules. We've seen the specious reasoning as to what constitutes commercial and how Wyndham can't win. Sure, keep on tilting at those windmills Don Quixote.

*"Renting was a money maker for Wyndham"*
Yes Wyndham does make money on the guest confirmations and point protection. (Side note for anyone who doesn't know this: point protection doesn't cover a reservation once a guest name is added.) These aren't even close to being major sources of income for Wyndham. Sales always has been and will continue to be the major source of income. Hence why sales rules the roost in Wyndham. It's long been a fallacy about how owners renting helps Wyndham. A common complaint from salespeople that was heard clear up to the top in Wyndham was how owners renting hurt sales. The salespeople repeatedly were told why should I spend tens of thousands of dollars to buy when I can rent from an owner any time I want for several hundred dollars or even a grand or so. Many of those renters learned that they could rent from a VIP for far less than a reservation would cost them if they owned. Many renters also told the sales people they preferred to rent from owners over making the financial commitment of owning even if owning meant their stays would cost them less.

Wyndham spent considerable time and money developing Extra Holidays and continues to spend a goodly amount promoting Extra Holidays. The owners who rent for less than what Extra Holidays charges hurts Wyndham. The knowledgeable owners making good money on their rentals also hurt Wyndham because Extra Holidays gets no cut.  Extra Holidays is a major marketing tool and owners renting outside of it hurts Wyndham's profits. 

*"why they are backing down when challenged"*
So you're saying that you're openly renting? That when Wyndham took further action because you continued to rent and blocked you from being able to add guest names that you and other owners you know challenged Wyndham and they removed the restriction?


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## Eric B (Jul 3, 2022)

My personal preference would be for Wyndham to actually improve Extra Holidays service to owners with excess points in a year so that it would cover their MFs.  Unfortunately, Wyndham just treats it as another profit center rather than something that serves owners in any way.


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## bnoble (Jul 3, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> why they are backing down when challenged


My theory is they had better things to do. For now anyway.


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## Rolltydr (Jul 3, 2022)

Eric B said:


> My personal preference would be for Wyndham to actually improve Extra Holidays service to owners with excess points in a year so that it would cover their MFs.  Unfortunately, Wyndham just treats it as another profit center rather than something that serves owners in any way.


How would you want them to improve it? Wyndham is a for profit corporation, as are all it’s subsidiaries, including Extra Holidays. You may not like your cut, but Wyndham is actually sharing their profits from EH with you when you use EH to list your points. 60% of the proceeds go to you and 40% to Wyndham. I know I’m probably in the minority here, but I think that’s pretty fair. You sound like you won’t be satisfied unless you get all of the profit. If Wyndham starts doing business that way, none of us will have anything to rent, or vacation in, for very long.


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## Eric B (Jul 3, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> How would you want them to improve it? Wyndham is a for profit corporation, as are all it’s subsidiaries, including Extra Holidays. You may not like your cut, but Wyndham is actually sharing their profits from EH with you when you use EH to list your points. 60% of the proceeds go to you and 40% to Wyndham. I know I’m probably in the minority here, but I think that’s pretty fair. You sound like you won’t be satisfied unless you get all of the profit. If Wyndham starts doing business that way, none of us will have anything to rent, or vacation in, for very long.



Hmmm, I thought saying the payout should cover the MFs on the points used would give enough of a clue as to how I think it could be improved.  If it did that, I might use it when I have excess points.  I’m not looking for a profit, personally, but a relief valve for something that reduces my ability to use points wouldn’t be a bad thing.

You can always just blame the evil megarenters if something is effecting your personal usage, of course, but some people have personal occurrences that prevent them from using their points in the short term and a rental program that actually helps with that might be a good addition.  I’m just saying….


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## Rolltydr (Jul 3, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Hmmm, I thought saying the payout should cover the MFs on the points used would give enough of a clue as to how I think it could be improved.  If it did that, I might use it when I have excess points.  I’m not looking for a profit, personally, but a relief valve for something that reduces my ability to use points wouldn’t be a bad thing.
> 
> You can always just blame the evil megarenters if something is effecting your personal usage, of course, but some people have personal occurrences that prevent them from using their points in the short term and a rental program that actually helps with that might be a good addition.  I’m just saying….


How much would it take to cover the MF’s? 70%? 80%? 90%? How much is enough? I’m just asking…


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## Eric B (Jul 3, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> How much would it take to cover the MF’s? 70%? 80%? 90%? How much is enough? I’m just asking…



… and I’m not responding because it’s truly none of your business.  Rant elsewhere — I’ve only suggested that it would be beneficial if EH covered MFs.  Make of that what you will.

Shields up!


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## Rolltydr (Jul 3, 2022)

Excellent!


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## Mr. Phil (Jul 3, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> Yes. Wyndham makes the rules and we all agree to that when we sign the contract.


 Very interesting how people do NOT read contracts


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## RENTER (Jul 3, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> *"More owners who tell the story that Wyndham sales agents told them they could rent their points to help them pay for VIP helps their case*."
> No it won't, not even a little. Wyndham already has the legal precedents on their side that they aren't held accountable for what the sales people say. This group and the Facebook groups have repeatedly warned OP that it doesn't matter what the sales person told them if it's not in the paperwork they signed.
> 
> This will be just as successful as when Voyager came out effectively putting a stop to VIP owners being able to book, cancel, rebook and upgrade. I would be willing to bet there were attempted lawsuits over that. Protesting that sales people taught us how to book, cancel, rebook and upgrade, which they did, made not one iota of difference. Five years later it still comes up in the discussions and is still a sore subject with some owners.
> ...


not me but others. I was never restricted. I challenged them and they never cancelled my reservations. Others have told me they were suspended and when they called to complain that they were not a commercial business and only covering their cost, they relented


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## RENTER (Jul 4, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> *"More owners who tell the story that Wyndham sales agents told them they could rent their points to help them pay for VIP helps their case*."
> No it won't, not even a little. Wyndham already has the legal precedents on their side that they aren't held accountable for what the sales people say. This group and the Facebook groups have repeatedly warned OP that it doesn't matter what the sales person told them if it's not in the paperwork they signed.
> 
> This will be just as successful as when Voyager came out effectively putting a stop to VIP owners being able to book, cancel, rebook and upgrade. I would be willing to bet there were attempted lawsuits over that. Protesting that sales people taught us how to book, cancel, rebook and upgrade, which they did, made not one iota of difference. Five years later it still comes up in the discussions and is still a sore subject with some owners.
> ...


that is true and accurate especially for those who had high maintenance fees. You could not rent for more than hotels and extra holidays because if you did, you would receive no business. I am one of those mega renter's people complain about. I am making no profit except covering my loan and maintenance fees. Wyndham was making the money from what I paid them because I WOULD HAVE NEVER BOUGHT VIP if their sales agents did not tell me, it was okay. The only way I will make a profit is if I continue to rent after my loan is paid off. I have several months to go. But I have no plans to because I thank my lucky stars, I never had a bad renter like many short-term renters had. Once my loans are paid off, I am done renting. Off course the jealous people will say it does not matter if you make a profit or not, you're still a commercial business. Again, they ignore the fact that homeowner associations rarely lose in court except for the times when they declare a homeowner renting a commercial business. Then they always lose despite the fact that they have the commercial business clause in their contract. That is why some of us believe that Wyndham backs down when challenged. That and the fact that they allow renting with thru them and they make money off us. The jealous people are jealous of those who rent and want to see Wyndham squash them so they will ignore every fact for their wishful thinking.


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## RENTER (Jul 4, 2022)

chapjim said:


> Disagree if you wish but 1,000 weak cases won't win any more than one weak case.


that is 1000 strong cases. You wishful thinking will not make their case any weaker. Again, you ignore the fact that homeowner associations have the commercial business clause in their contracts and rarely lose a case against homeowners in violation of the rules. EXCEPT in the case where they declare a homeowner renting their property a commercial business. Then the homeowner association ALWAYS AND I REPEAT, ALWAY LOSES.


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 4, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> How would you want them to improve it? Wyndham is a for profit corporation, as are all it’s subsidiaries, including Extra Holidays. You may not like your cut, but Wyndham is actually sharing their profits from EH with you when you use EH to list your points. 60% of the proceeds go to you and 40% to Wyndham. I know I’m probably in the minority here, but I think that’s pretty fair. You sound like you won’t be satisfied unless you get all of the profit. If Wyndham starts doing business that way, none of us will have anything to rent, or vacation in, for very long.


I think a big issue is the rules aren't the same. On the one side, there are the owners with a 15 day cancellation policy. On the other side is EH, you can cancel 24 or 48 hours from checkin for a full refund (I think). The owners are blindly offering up their reservations, don't know if they've gotten rented, don't know if it 1 day or all of the days, etc. The owners are still operating under timeshare rules, EH is operating with hotel-like rules. The loser in this game is the owners. There appears to be very little effort on Wyndham's part to make this a better situation for owners. They have this crappy EH program. You will find few and far between happy owners that used EH. Conversely, plenty who say never again. 60/40 may be fair if it rents. Nada for the owner when it doesn't, with 0 risk to Wyndham, is not. Being a for profit company, doesn't mean at the expense of your customers (or partners, you could say, for EH). You can treat people right and be profitable.


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## Rolltydr (Jul 4, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> I think a big issue is the rules aren't the same. On the one side, there are the owners with a 15 day cancellation policy. On the other side is EH, you can cancel 24 or 48 hours from checkin for a full refund (I think). The owners are blindly offering up their reservations, don't know if they've gotten rented, don't know if it 1 day or all of the days, etc. The owners are still operating under timeshare rules, EH is operating with hotel-like rules. The loser in this game is the owners. There appears to be very little effort on Wyndham's part to make this a better situation for owners. They have this crappy EH program. You will find few and far between happy owners that used EH. Conversely, plenty who say never again. 60/40 may be fair if it rents. Nada for the owner when it doesn't, with 0 risk to Wyndham, is not. Being a for profit company, doesn't mean at the expense of your customers (or partners, you could say, for EH). You can treat people right and be profitable.


So, is it mostly a communication issue? Wyndham/EH provides the website and rns the ad listing the availability and cost. It’s first come/first serve at that point. Wyndham can’t force anyone to rent the full amount of days available. Well, I guess they could but that would also reduce your chance of renting it at all. You say the loser in the game is the “owner”. Do you not agree that if the unit remains empty, Wyndham is also losing money? We aren’t the sole “owners”. We share that space with all the other “owners” and with Wyndham. When units remain empty, we’re all losing to a certain extent.


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 4, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> So, is it mostly a communication issue? Wyndham/EH provides the website and rns the ad listing the availability and cost. It’s first come/first serve at that point. Wyndham can’t force anyone to rent the full amount of days available. Well, I guess they could but that would also reduce your chance of renting it at all. You say the loser in the game is the “owner”. Do you not agree that if the unit remains empty, Wyndham is also losing money? We aren’t the sole “owners”. We share that space with all the other “owners” and with Wyndham. When units remain empty, we’re all losing to a certain extent.


I would say a very poor business model overall. Renting on the  EH website like they are hotel rooms (available for 2 or more nights stays) while owners have to offer up timeshare bookings (my guess is most are booked for a week). I suggest it would benefit owners if EH didn't tie up rooms like this. How many nights are sitting unrented by EH that had they been freed up and available on the website, an owner could have booked and used.


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## Eric B (Jul 4, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> I would say a very poor business model overall. Renting on the  EH website like they are hotel rooms (available for 2 or more nights stays) while owners have to offer up timeshare bookings (my guess is most are booked for a week). I suggest it would benefit owners if EH didn't tie up rooms like this. How many nights are sitting unrented by EH that had they been freed up and available on the website, an owner could have booked and used.



The other thing to consider is that the rooms/nights tied up this way are not the undesirable ones because no one in their right mind would book those to try and rent out even via EH.  Instead, they are the most desirable ones bookable for renting, assuming owner priority overrides all other considerations (I haven’t looked to see if the ones totally blocked out for guest usage next year are on there).  So Wyndham is taking advantage of the owners trying to offset their costs by using their rental outlet (EH) while also blocking off the use of some percentage of desirable room/dates that will remain empty because of their methods.  It’s a Wyn-Wyn proposition subsidized by the owners they should be serving.


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## Rolltydr (Jul 4, 2022)

“So Wyndham is taking advantage of the owners trying to offset their costs by using their rental outlet (EH) while also blocking off the use of some percentage of desirable room/dates that will remain empty because of their methods. It’s a Wyn-Wyn proposition subsidized by the owners they should be serving.”

When we bought our timeshare, DW and I are the only ones who agreed to be responsible for paying the initial investment and the ongoing maintenance fees. We did so after determining we could afford the expenditure. Nobody else is responsible and it isn’t Wyndham’s responsibility to help anyone find somebody to rent your units to recoup the cost of your MF’s. Wyndham is serving you by managing their businesses and their properties so that you and your family can have nice condos in desirable locations to vacation in. How you pay for it, within the rules of the contract, is on you, not Wyndham.


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## comicbookman (Jul 5, 2022)

RENTER said:


> that is 1000 strong cases. You wishful thinking will not make their case any weaker. Again, you ignore the fact that homeowner associations have the commercial business clause in their contracts and rarely lose a case against homeowners in violation of the rules. EXCEPT in the case where they declare a homeowner renting their property a commercial business. Then the homeowner association ALWAYS AND I REPEAT, ALWAY LOSES.


 relying on what was said and not what is in the contract is always a weak case.  So yes, it is 1000 WEAK cases.  quantity does not make the case stronger when settled law says it is a weak case.  and yes I have a law degree, I don't just play one on Tug.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 5, 2022)

Eric B said:


> My personal preference would be for Wyndham to actually improve Extra Holidays service to owners with excess points in a year so that it would cover their MFs.  Unfortunately, Wyndham just treats it as another profit center rather than something that serves owners in any way.



I agree and have said this repeatedly whenever I'm asked for ways Wyndham can improve ownership experiences.  The more I think about it - I think Extra Holidays should work more like Koala does.  Marry together owners and potential renters and allow Wyndham owners to compete for available rental requests - while also allowing owners to post their bookings for consumption.  Wyndham takes a smaller cut (to 70/30 or 75/25 for example). This would do two things.  One, it would increase the percentage of owners that utilize Extra Holidays.  Two, it would put pressure on third party points managers since more owners would likely just use Extra Holidays instead since it would be a more attractive option - especially if using EH still did not require burning a GC like it does today.  I don't know what kind of margin Koala takes on it's listings - but I doubt it's as high as 60/40 like EH is today.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 5, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I agree and have said this repeatedly whenever I'm asked for ways Wyndham can improve ownership experiences.  The more I think about it - I think Extra Holidays should work more like Koala does.  Marry together owners and potential renters and allow Wyndham owners to compete for available rental requests - while also allowing owners to post their bookings for consumption.  Wyndham takes a smaller cut (to 70/30 or 75/25 for example). This would do two things.  One, it would increase the percentage of owners that utilize Extra Holidays.  Two, it would put pressure on third party points managers since more owners would likely just use Extra Holidays instead since it would be a more attractive option - especially if using EH still did not require burning a GC like it does today.  I don't know what kind of margin Koala takes on it's listings - but I doubt it's as high as 60/40 like EH is today.


I think KOALA charges an 8% commission to the seller but there is also a booking fee to the renter. I think it might be 5%. So only 13% total if I have those numbers right. Their rental rates may also be cheaper than EH, so they don't make as much on each rental.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 5, 2022)

I think "mega renters" were always a small percentage of the people renting.  Wyndham has always been in the business of renting on a much larger scale and at higher prices.  Small contract owners still rent and stay under the radar, most likely.  It's the larger number of GC's that seems to catch the attention of Wyndham's computer system.  Or maybe the Wyndham execs or the "higher ups" are watching closely.  These are different from the nice people we talk to over the phone.  

We are pretty much done with Wyndham and are trying to figure out what to keep because we have good MF's and Founder's level discount.  Working with our daughter to figure out our next steps.  Meanwhile, we are doing our best to stay out of the fray.  

There are people who are being unnecessarily unpleasant on this forum.  It's not been fun to read the vindicitive posts and the constant references to a blurb on the website about rules against commercial businesses as they relate to Wyndham points' use.  Wyndham can change their website at any time.  Why do you all like to join with the big bully against other owners?  It's mob rule on TUG.  But I can tell you honestly that it has not always been that way.  

When we joined TUG there were many Wyndham and Bluegreen and WorldMark mega renters who taught us all how to do the same thing. This vitriol is relatively a new thing and really makes me dislike TUG members who are judgmental and are in total agreement with a big company over the small owners.  Our business was relatively small and not tens of millions of points like others have.  

Wait until Wyndham changes some rule on its website that is contrary to what you were told and knew for 15 years.  Yes, it's been 15 years for us.  I guess there is no grandfathering with Wyndham.  

Have you seen a lot of inventory on Wyndham that you didn't see before?  If it was there for us at <60 days, it was always there for you, especially if you plan way ahead.  

I am done with my rant.


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## Eric B (Jul 5, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I think "mega renters" were always a small percentage of the people renting.  Wyndham has always been in the business of renting on a much larger scale and at higher prices.  Small contract owners still rent and stay under the radar, most likely.  It's the larger number of GC's that seems to catch the attention of Wyndham's computer system.  Or maybe the Wyndham execs or the "higher ups" are watching closely.  These are different from the nice people we talk to over the phone.
> 
> We are pretty much done with Wyndham and are trying to figure out what to keep because we have good MF's and Founder's level discount.  Working with our daughter to figure out our next steps.  Meanwhile, we are doing our best to stay out of the fray.
> 
> ...



I'm aligned with you on the judgmental non-value-added postings.  Eventually those folks wind up joining my ignore list once I come to the conclusion that the odds of a positive interaction with them have become exceedingly low.  I do occasionally feel bad about it because that reduces the number of folks I can help out with information I have gleaned through my interactions with the timeshares I own and my travel experiences but it does take a bit of trolling to get on that list.


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## Eric B (Jul 5, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I agree and have said this repeatedly whenever I'm asked for ways Wyndham can improve ownership experiences.  The more I think about it - I think Extra Holidays should work more like Koala does.  Marry together owners and potential renters and allow Wyndham owners to compete for available rental requests - while also allowing owners to post their bookings for consumption.  Wyndham takes a smaller cut (to 70/30 or 75/25 for example). This would do two things.  One, it would increase the percentage of owners that utilize Extra Holidays.  Two, it would put pressure on third party points managers since more owners would likely just use Extra Holidays instead since it would be a more attractive option - especially if using EH still did not require burning a GC like it does today.  I don't know what kind of margin Koala takes on it's listings - but I doubt it's as high as 60/40 like EH is today.



Great minds....









						Koala warns Wyndham is cancelling reservations based on Wyndham's "updated policy"  Anyone know what's up?
					

And besides, mission accomplished - made a lot of owners happy yesterday, no doubt (wow, look at Wyndham continue to curtail renting)  I’m not sure about this part. At least one of the folks receiving the letter had only one rental, ever. I think most of the people caught up in this don’t...




					tugbbs.com


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## Rolltydr (Jul 5, 2022)

Cindy, I’m a contrarian by nature and training. I was a business analyst in my previous life and I was paid to look at all sides of an issue, problem, or situation. Another way to look at this situation is that the “big bully” allowed you and many others to make thousands and thousands of dollars over the past 15 years running businesses that are against the terms of the contract you signed with Wyndham. Now, they’re simply telling you to stop breaking the rules. As far as I know, they haven’t sued anybody for breaking the terms of the contract and, potentially, causing them financial loss. They just want you to stop. One could say Wyndham is being very lenient.

Wyndham did recently change something that had an adverse affect on how I use can use my points. I have 2 resale contracts that we purchased 2 months prior to Wyndham enforcing the rule that resale points do not get VIP benefits. I knew that was the rule when I purchased the contracts and that Wyndham didn’t enforce it. Now, they were going to. Okay, I can’t get upgrades or ARP with those points. I didn’t get mad and blame Wyndham for taking something away from me that I knew I shouldn’t have been getting anyway. I just adjusted to how I use the points. IMHO, owner/renters should stop whining about big, bad Wyndham and be thankful for that Wyndham allowed them to make so much money for so long.

And last, yes, I am seeing a lot of inventory I haven’t seen before. We like to stay in Presidential units but until recently they were very hard to find outside of the ARP window. However, I currently have 7 reservations in the next 8 months and 6 of them are presidential units (the other is a deluxe oceanfront), 2 are Presidential Reserve and I have made all of them within the last couple months, 2 within the last week. So, I believe there is more, and better, inventory available to owners. At least, that is my experience.


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## RENTER (Jul 5, 2022)

comicbookman said:


> relying on what was said and not what is in the contract is always a weak case.  So yes, it is 1000 WEAK cases.  quantity does not make the case stronger when settled law says it is a weak case.  and yes I have a law degree, I don't just play one on Tug.


well I would not hire you to represent me because a strong case has been presented and renting is not a commercial business especially when Wyndham allows it if you do it thru them. That is the case I and others have presented and have been left alone. That is the case others who had their accounts suspended presented and then had the suspension lifted. I see some are see still renting. So maybe you should ask that law school you went to for a refund if you think we have a weak case.


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## RENTER (Jul 5, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Great minds....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Airbnb charges owners 3% and renter 15%. Then Wyndham wonders why owners do not want to use extra holidays.


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## bnoble (Jul 5, 2022)

RENTER said:


> a strong case has been presented


It appears that few if any of us agree with you. The good news is that you don't have to convince us. Maybe you should instead spend your time trying to hire counsel to make your case where it matters: in court.

I will point out, though, that earlier in this thread you asked if you were lucky or you were right when Wyndham left you alone. Most of us told you you were lucky. You've decided not to take our collective answer to heart. That's fine, but you don't win anything by continuing to make the same argument over and over again, because we've already told you what we think.

Best of luck to you. In the meantime, welcome to my ignore list.


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## RENTER (Jul 5, 2022)

Mr. Phil said:


> Very interesting how people do NOT read contracts
> 
> RCI says NO RENTING. Wyndham says no Commerical Business. Can't help you if you do not see a problem with that. The courts do and they rule that renting IS NOT A COMMERCIAL BUSINESS in cases against Homeowner Associations. The IRS does not recognize renting as a commercial business. Maybe the person who drafted up the contract for Wyndham is the person who told me they went to law school but does not practice law here on TUG.


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## RENTER (Jul 5, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Airbnb charges owners 3% and renter 15%. Then Wyndham wonders why owners do not want to use extra holidays.  I had read recently a post from one of those jealous people who tried to rub it in the faces of those who disagree with him or her about renting.  He had mentioned about how Blackout Period not only prevents renting on your own but also included not allowing renting thru Extra Holidays during the blackout period. So, the said so much for the conspiracy theory that Wyndham is trying to force you to use Extra Holiday. My response is NO FAKE JAKE. If Wyndham prevented you from renting except thru them, it clearly puts a target on their back. THE CONSPIRACY THEORY is that owners renting on their own are stealing business from Extra Holidays and that Wyndham wants to stop you from renting and force you to use them during the non-blackout periods. I for one do not believe it is a theory but a fact.


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## RENTER (Jul 5, 2022)

For those who are confused or undecided about this debate. I think back how much I would have lost to help me cover my VIP loans if I listened to the armchair owner lawyers who mock others with

1.  Can't you read a contract
2. You cannot fight Wyndham
3, You cannot rent because it is a commercial business
4. Wyndham can change the rules anytime they want
5. Wyndham will freeze your points and still demand payment. 

I and others chose to challenge them, some of us who did from the beginning have been left alone. Others who did after their account was suspended had their accounts restored. WHY? I believe that once you challenge them and prove that you are not a real commercial business like a travel agency and just simply an owner covering your costs as their sales agents told you to do they relent. 

My days fighting those jealous owners are whining down. I have a few more guest passes to get thru and I will have recovered the extra money I put out to buy VIP. So, you will not be hearing from me as much. I don't time for delusional jealous people who are so intent on harming others that they ignore all strong arguments made in your defense.

So, I hope that you do not listen to them and stand up and fight for yourself as I and others did.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 5, 2022)

I certainly do understand that inventory should go to owners and not to renters of owners.  I can see both sides of the issue.  

Just keep in mind that Wyndham is the biggest renter.  One TUG member that no longer posts (who has been a mega renter much longer than we have) told me to look at Florida Statute 7:21:13 section 5.  I didn't look it up, but apparently that statue says if the managing entity can rent, they cannot keep owners from renting.  Since Wyndham is in FL, the statute could apply to us, possibly.  

But we are not joining a class-action lawsuit with that TUG member.  We will acquiesce to Wyndham.  Decisions need to be made on what contracts to keep, and the entire family is going to have to sit down and make those decisions together.  Therein lies the problem.  Too much going on in life right this moment for our kids.


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## paxsarah (Jul 5, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Just keep in mind that Wyndham is the biggest renter. One TUG member that no longer posts (who has been a mega renter much longer than we have) told me to look at Florida Statute 7:21:13 section 5. I didn't look it up, but apparently that statue says if the managing entity can rent, they cannot keep owners from renting. Since Wyndham is in FL, the statute could apply to us, possibly.


It appears to be 721.13(6)(g), referring back to subsections (f) and (b), since that's the only part of 721.13 that refers to renting, but that's not what it says.

Subsection (b) is about owners who are delinquent in payment of their assessments (remembering that this is probably thinking mainly of week-based intervals) and the ability of management, after a notification process, to deny the owner the use of their week (or points). Subsection (f) is a whole discussion about how management may (but isn't required to) rent out the interval of the delinquent owner, and if so, it will apply the proceeds to the owner's delinquency (minus any reasonable and customary fees). And finally, subsection (g) states that if management chooses to use subsection (b) to deny use of an owner's week due to delinquency, it must apply that policy similarly to all owners (which could include the developer). However, it is not required to attempt to rent all delinquent owners' weeks via the process described in subsection (f).

So long story short, unless there's a different section of the FL timeshare statute that deals with rentals in general, this is not that. All this says is that if the timeshare manager is going to deny an owner the use of their week/points for being delinquent in payment of assessments, they have to treat all owners equally.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 5, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> It appears to be 721.13(6)(g), referring back to subsections (f) and (b), since that's the only part of 721.13 that refers to renting, but that's not what it says.
> 
> Subsection (b) is about owners who are delinquent in payment of their assessments (remembering that this is probably thinking mainly of week-based intervals) and the ability of management, after a notification process, to deny the owner the use of their week (or points). Subsection (f) is a whole discussion about how management may (but isn't required to) rent out the interval of the delinquent owner, and if so, it will apply the proceeds to the owner's delinquency (minus any reasonable and customary fees). And finally, subsection (g) states that if management chooses to use subsection (b) to deny use of an owner's week due to delinquency, it must apply that policy similarly to all owners (which could include the developer). However, it is not required to attempt to rent all delinquent owners' weeks via the process described in subsection (f).
> 
> So long story short, unless there's a different section of the FL timeshare statute that deals with rentals in general, this is not that. All this says is that if the timeshare manager is going to deny an owner the use of their week/points for being delinquent in payment of assessments, they have to treat all owners equally.


Doesn't matter because I am not pursuing any lawsuit against Wyndham.  The mega renter (who shall not be mentioned here by name as requested) has a lawyer who is basing a lawsuit, perhaps a class action, on this statute, so it's not about delinquent fees. I couldn't find it and didn't spend any time looking for it.  

I do believe that Wyndham is too big to fight.  I just wish people would stop buying developer, especially based on the promises made at the sales' table.  If only they could see how really dishonest these people are.  Promises made without writing it down are just lies to get you to sign your money away.


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## paxsarah (Jul 5, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> The mega renter (who shall not be mentioned here by name as requested) has a lawyer who is basing a lawsuit, perhaps a class action, on this statute, so it's not about delinquent fees.


For the benefit of the megarenter (should they happen to be lurking), I was simply pointing out that 721.13(5) (which I assume was meant by "7:21:13 section 5") is completely unrelated to the issue, but that 721.13(6) does indeed have some language about renting, and some language about enforcing something against all owners (including the developer) the same way, but that it absolutely does not reflect what they described to you as being in the statute. So for their sake, I hope there's a completely different section of the statute that does support their claim, because 721.13(6) clearly (to me as a layperson) does not.


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## Snippy (Jul 6, 2022)

RENTER said:


> a strong case has been presented and renting is not a commercial business especially when Wyndham allows it if you do it thru them. That is the case I and others have presented and have been left alone.


Who did you and others present your rebuttal to?    And did you get a response?  I rented quite a bit last year as like everyone else had double due to covid year.  I received "the letter" last year.   I sent an email to the email address provided asking a generic question - how should I notify Wyndham that I had a family reunion planned and had 10 rooms booked for our family.   I never received a reply.  Vacation counselors had no idea.  Owner care had no idea.  No one answered the email that I sent to the email address provided on "the letter".  I'm curious to understand who you have been "presenting your case to".


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## Jan M. (Jul 6, 2022)

Snippy said:


> No one answered the email that I sent to the email address provided on "the letter"



I'm curious. Has anyone who emailed the address provided gotten a response? Several people I know didn't get a response and I've also seen posts with people saying they didn't get a response.


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## noreenkate (Jul 6, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> From what we know Wyndham is still continuing to send out the first time certified letters so don't think you're safe if you've renting but haven't yet received a letter. A smart person wouldn't be renting in *any* public forum right now. If you have to have the money from rentals to pay your maintenance fees now would be a good time to downsize your account to what you can manage without the money from rentals. Just a reminder of what the person with 4 accounts/65 million points who started all of this found out when the deeds/contracts she sold off reached Wyndham for them to transfer to the new owners. Wyndham contacted those people to inform them that restrictions on her account were going to be passed on to them if they opted to proceed with the transfer. Of course she had to inform everyone else she'd also sold deeds/contracts to and a good number of them chose not to proceed. In addition to having to refund their money she was back on the hook for that many more months maintenance fees while she found new buyers who were willing to accept her restrictions being placed on their account and the months while the deeds/contracts went through the whole transfer process again.



Not sure if it’s the same kinda thing- but that’s how I knew the first of my Wyndham eBay contracts were in-

I received a letter from Wyndham that basically the contract had been identified as having been used for renting…And that it the problems persisted it would it would be suspended…I kinda blew it off, didn’t even have an account registration yet, it’s actually how I found out it transferred…

as I have no intention to rent and that wonder if i will have problems later if I use guest Certificates, @Snippy curious how the family reunion turns out- while I don’t intend to rent, we may be planning a multi generational cruise in 2024 and had considered using points for rooms before/after…


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## Eric B (Jul 6, 2022)

So let me get this right; Wyndham started out sending poorly drafted emails accusing folks of commercial activities for renting stays, eventually realized the PR nightmare that those poorly drafted emails could cause and switched to sending letters by certified mail with an email address to contact for further information that no one has ever received a reply from?  And this is supposed to inspire greater confidence in their management of the issues?  Oooookaaaay


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## paxsarah (Jul 6, 2022)

I think the poorly drafted emails were sent simultaneously with a round of certified letters, as a sort of heads up. In retrospect, it would have been best to let the postal letters speak for themselves.


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## Eric B (Jul 6, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> I think the poorly drafted emails were sent simultaneously with a round of certified letters, as a sort of heads up. In retrospect, it would have been best to let the postal letters speak for themselves.



I would hesitate to say "best" - it probably would be better than that if they responded to owners emails using the address provided in the letters.  I'm not speaking from personal experience, just reacting to what I've read here about Wyndham's behavior with regard to these people; whether or not they are renters, engaged in commercial activities, or just innocently trying to use their ownership for friends, family, or third party exchanges, it doesn't seem like good customer service.  The problem is that it could only be damaging to Wyndham's reputation if they had a good one.


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## Jan M. (Jul 6, 2022)

Eric B said:


> So let me get this right; Wyndham started out sending poorly drafted emails accusing folks of commercial activities for renting stays, eventually realized the PR nightmare that those poorly drafted emails could cause and switched to sending letters by certified mail with an email address to contact for further information that no one has ever received a reply from?  And this is supposed to inspire greater confidence in their management of the issues?  Oooookaaaay



Chronology:
The certified letters began going out in early 2021 and last we knew are still continuing to go out.
This spring? the emails went out.
Now we've hearing reports that some owners received a second certified letter notifying them that they've been placed under a 90 suspension of not being able to add guest names to their reservations. However everyone on their account can still make reservations and use them.

On the first certified letter and I think on guest suspension certified letters too there was an email address. I was asking if anyone got a reply to their email.


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## RENTER (Jul 6, 2022)

Snippy said:


> Who did you and others present your rebuttal to?    And did you get a response?  I rented quite a bit last year as like everyone else had double due to covid year.  I received "the letter" last year.   I sent an email to the email address provided asking a generic question - how should I notify Wyndham that I had a family reunion planned and had 10 rooms booked for our family.   I never received a reply.  Vacation counselors had no idea.  Owner care had no idea.  No one answered the email that I sent to the email address provided on "the letter".  I'm curious to understand who you have been "presenting your case to".


I made such a stink here last year and I did it on purpose to draw attention to myself. I sent them what I had posted here directly to the CEO. So they called me. Other people told me they called but they did not tell me who they called. I assumed the corporate office.


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## comicbookman (Jul 6, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I think KOALA charges an 8% commission to the seller but there is also a booking fee to the renter. I think it might be 5%. So only 13% total if I have those numbers right. Their rental rates may also be cheaper than EH, so they don't make as much on each rental.



it doesn't really matter what commission KOALA charges If you use the fulfillment method.  They tell you what they will pay you for the reservation and if that is satisfactory, you make the reservation and fulfill the request.  I used it a lot to burn off the points I moved forward because of covid.  No real profit, but I got my maintenance fees covered on the points used, which was my goal.


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## comicbookman (Jul 6, 2022)

RENTER said:


> well I would not hire you to represent me because a strong case has been presented and renting is not a commercial business especially when Wyndham allows it if you do it thru them. That is the case I and others have presented and have been left alone. That is the case others who had their accounts suspended presented and then had the suspension lifted. I see some are see still renting. So maybe you should ask that law school you went to for a refund if you think we have a weak case.



You don't need to hire me.  A strong case has been presented where?  my comments were based on actual court rulings.  Yours are based on hopeful interpretation. Wyndham has never been scared of this type of lawsuit.  You are just too small of an annoyance for them to deal with at the moment.  I am sure it will come as a great surprise to you when they get far enough down the list and tell you to go ahead and sue.


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## RENTER (Jul 6, 2022)

bnoble said:


> It appears that few if any of us agree with you. The good news is that you don't have to convince us. Maybe you should instead spend your time trying to hire counsel to make your case where it matters: in court.
> 
> I will point out, though, that earlier in this thread you asked if you were lucky or you were right when Wyndham left you alone. Most of us told you you were lucky. You've decided not to take our collective answer to heart. That's fine, but you don't win anything by continuing to make the same argument over and over again, because we've already told you what we think.
> 
> Best of luck to you. In the meantime, welcome to my ignore list.


I ALREADY WON. I have made 95% of my money back. My reservations went thru except for a few more coming which will be the final 5%. The purpose of my posts is to help others not to listen to jealous people like you and argue their case with Wyndham. So my posts are not for people like you. They are for others who are not a commercial business and were talked into renting by Wyndham Sales agents and need to rent to cover their loans/


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## RENTER (Jul 6, 2022)

comicbookman said:


> You don't need to hire me.  A strong case has been presented where?  my comments were based on actual court rulings.  Yours are based on hopeful interpretation. Wyndham has never been scared of this type of lawsuit.  You are just too small of an annoyance for them to deal with rat the moment.  I am sure it will come as a great surprise to you when they get far enough down the list and tell you to go ahead and sue.


I don't have to sue. I ALREADY WON. My guest passes went thru after I received the letter and refused to comply  and I made 95% of my money back. I have just a few more to go thru to make up that final 5%.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 6, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> There are people who are being unnecessarily unpleasant on this forum.  It's not been fun to read the vindictive posts and the constant references to a blurb on the website about rules against commercial businesses as they relate to Wyndham points' use.  Wyndham can change their website at any time.  Why do you all like to join with the big bully against other owners?  It's mob rule on TUG.  But I can tell you honestly that it has not always been that way.
> 
> When we joined TUG there were many Wyndham and Bluegreen and WorldMark mega renters who taught us all how to do the same thing. This vitriol is relatively a new thing and really makes me dislike TUG members who are judgmental and are in total agreement with a big company over the small owners.  Our business was relatively small and not tens of millions of points like others have.
> 
> ...



IME in this life - change is the only constant.  Wyndham is definitely changing, of that there is no doubt.  It's glaringly clear to me that Wyndham's current ELT is making sea changes to how Wyndham timesharing is going to work - for better or for worse.  Having been here for 15 years - I'm sure it's difficult to see both the TUG Wyndham culture changing, partly as a result of the changes Wyndham is making - at least in part, and partly because new owners are coming along and old owners are departing and so cultural forum change is also occurring.  This type of change is inevitable even on forums.  I used to be a huge contributor to the MarriageBuilders forums for many years back in the early to mid 2000's for example.  Over time, many of the posters who I knew best moved on over time, and the culture of that forum started changing as well.  While I probably still have a login, I haven't visited in many years now - because I've changed and the forums have changed.  IME seldom does any one thing last a lifetime - forum posters/members included.  Some things happen for a reason, some for a season, and relatively few for a lifetime.  Wyndham, as we so often say, makes the rules.  It's their game, their field, we are just players on the field - and Wyndham clearly has new key players as well - that want the game and the field to look quite a bit different than it does today.  We are just along for the ride for the most part.

Many of the newer owners that have joined TUG over the past few years also have no real understanding of a lot of what the long time posters refer to when making historical references - the days of old type posts.  Most of the "mega-renters" no longer post here on TUG either - because they've either exited from Wyndham and don't have a vested interest any longer - or are running silent so as not to draw attention to themselves (since we know Wyndham watches these forums).  IMHO those "days of old"  are over for the most part - especially given Wyndham has made enough changes to their systems that have negatively impacted renters so as to start to curtail rental activities over time.  I have no doubt that some of these changes are difficult for long time TUG Wyndham members to witness and to bear.  We can certainly wax poetic about the olden days on occasion - as long as we understand that doing so isn't going to change anything moving forward.  Wyndham is going to continue making changes to how their timesharing system works without a doubt - and these changes aren't going to improve rental experiences as a general rule - at least this is the pattern I have observed especially over the past two years now.

As @Rolltydr said, I was also impacted by the change last summer to the VIP resale points management functions into separate points buckets.  Roughly half of my points are resale.  I have 718k retail points (mostly PIC contract points), and 689k resale points.  So yes that change negatively impacted me - and I really thought this type of change would not occur during the heights of the pandemic.  I figured the change would come a year or two out from now  - but alas I was wrong.  I enjoyed the perk while it lasted.  I definitely also see the same pattern that you are describing - the gradual whittling away of VIP benefits over time.  It does concern me - though to date my grandfathering protects me from the vast majority of the changes that really "matter" to me at least (like unlimited HKs and RTs for example).  I continue to lobby for additional benefits with certain Wyndham contacts.  Most of what we have suggested doesn't seem to align with what the majority of Wyndham timeshare owners want in comparison - so most of our suggestions aren't seriously considered as a result.

For my part - I've also seen more availability for inventory - both inside and outside of the discount window.  I cannot say for sure why this is - since we have no visibility into Wyndham's systems to be able to draw any real conclusions.  Have the changes designed to curtail owner based rental activities resulted in better availability?  We are told yes by Wyndham - but we have to take their word for it.  My anecdotal observations are that I've been able to find more last minute availability - especially within 30 days - even during prime season - than in years past.  Your guess is as good as mine as to the why.


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## comicbookman (Jul 6, 2022)

RENTER said:


> I ALREADY WON. I have made 95% of my money back. My reservations went thru except for a few more coming which will be the final 5%. The purpose of my posts is to help others not to listen to jealous people like you and argue their case with Wyndham. So my posts are not for people like you. They are for others who are not a commercial business and were talked into renting by Wyndham Sales agents and need to rent to cover their loans/



95% of your Maintenace fees or purchase price?  Either way, you are in no different a situation than those of us who used to take advantage of having resale points get VIP discounts.  You get to do what you are doing until Wyndham cracks down harder.  I don't understand your jealous comment as I have merely pointed out what a court is likely to conclude (in my opinion, nothing is ever certain) based on actual court rulings.  I don't actually care what you do or don't get away with.  I do care that you make legal pronouncements with no legal precedent to back you up or obvious legal expertise which might mislead others to think something is settled law.


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## comicbookman (Jul 6, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> IME in this life - change is the only constant.  Wyndham is definitely changing, of that there is no doubt.  It's glaringly clear to me that Wyndham's current ELT is making sea changes to how Wyndham timesharing is going to work - for better or for worse.  Having been here for 15 years - I'm sure it's difficult to see both the TUG Wyndham culture changing, partly as a result of the changes Wyndham is making - at least in part, and partly because new owners are coming along and old owners are departing and so cultural forum change is also occurring.  This type of change is inevitable even on forums.  I used to be a huge contributor to the MarriageBuilders forums for many years back in the early to mid 2000's for example.  Over time, many of the posters who I knew best moved on over time, and the culture of that forum started changing as well.  While I probably still have a login, I haven't visited in many years now - because I've changed and the forums have changed.  IME seldom does any one thing last a lifetime - forums posters included.  Some things happen for a reason, some for a season, and relatively few for a lifetime.  Wyndham, as we so often say, makes the rules.  It's their game, their field, we are just players on the field - and Wyndham clearly has new key players as well - that want the game and the field to look quite a bit different than it does today.  We are just along for the ride for the most part.
> 
> Many of the newer owners that have joined TUG over the past few years also have no real understanding of a lot of what the long time posters refer to when making historical references - the days of old type posts.  Most of the "mega-renters" no longer post here on TUG either - because they've either exited from Wyndham and don't have a vested interest any longer - or are running silent so as not to draw attention to themselves (since we know Wyndham watches these forums).  IMHO those "days of old"  are over for the most part - especially given Wyndham has made enough changes to their systems that have negatively impacted renters so as to start to curtail rental activities over time.  I have no doubt that some of these changes are difficult for long time TUG Wyndham members to witness and to bear.  We can certainly wax poetic about the olden days on occasion - as long as we understand that doing so isn't going to change anything moving forward.  Wyndham is going to continue making changes to how their timesharing system works without a doubt - and these changes aren't going to improve rental experiences as a general rule - at least this is the pattern I have observed especially over the past two years now.
> 
> ...




I agree with everything you said, except my experience is that less last minute rentals seem to be available in the locations I used to have no trouble with.  This does not invalidate your observation.  I think use patterns have changed based on the changes, co-vid and an influx of newer owners.  It would be very interesting to be able to do a real comparison based on actual use patterns, but unlikely that that type of information would ever be available outside of Wyndham corporate. (and that is not unreasonable)


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## paxsarah (Jul 6, 2022)

RENTER said:


> jealous


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## MaryBella7 (Jul 6, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> IME in this life - change is the only constant.  Wyndham is definitely changing, of that there is no doubt.  It's glaringly clear to me that Wyndham's current ELT is making sea changes to how Wyndham timesharing is going to work - for better or for worse.  Having been here for 15 years - I'm sure it's difficult to see both the TUG Wyndham culture changing, partly as a result of the changes Wyndham is making - at least in part, and partly because new owners are coming along and old owners are departing and so cultural forum change is also occurring.  This type of change is inevitable even on forums.  I used to be a huge contributor to the MarriageBuilders forums for many years back in the early to mid 2000's for example.  Over time, many of the posters who I knew best moved on over time, and the culture of that forum started changing as well.  While I probably still have a login, I haven't visited in many years now - because I've changed and the forums have changed.  IME seldom does any one thing last a lifetime - forums posters included.  Some things happen for a reason, some for a season, and relatively few for a lifetime.  Wyndham, as we so often say, makes the rules.  It's their game, their field, we are just players on the field - and Wyndham clearly has new key players as well - that want the game and the field to look quite a bit different than it does today.  We are just along for the ride for the most part.
> 
> Many of the newer owners that have joined TUG over the past few years also have no real understanding of a lot of what the long time posters refer to when making historical references - the days of old type posts.  Most of the "mega-renters" no longer post here on TUG either - because they've either exited from Wyndham and don't have a vested interest any longer - or are running silent so as not to draw attention to themselves (since we know Wyndham watches these forums).  IMHO those "days of old"  are over for the most part - especially given Wyndham has made enough changes to their systems that have negatively impacted renters so as to start to curtail rental activities over time.  I have no doubt that some of these changes are difficult for long time TUG Wyndham members to witness and to bear.  We can certainly wax poetic about the olden days on occasion - as long as we understand that doing so isn't going to change anything moving forward.


Let me wax poetic. I miss the days when I learned a lot instead of just witness the same arguments over and over in the group. With the changes made by Wyndham, the renting landscape had definitely changed before letters even came out. I suspect that most of the highly desired units and times became more available for owner use and more rentals were of the discounted last call variety, so the letters may have been a bit of overkill.
At any rate, I have seen little change to my ability to use my points. It was a little more challenging for me to get what I usually was able to get easily last year and this year, but it seems to be easing up as the glut of covid points that were banked get used. 
I don’t think we need to keep on berating the renters or gloating about people who spent a heck of a lot of money on Wyndham losing their benefits. I think they have taken their hits, and they don’t need to be beaten any more. Wyndham did it already. It would be nice to go back to helping new people learn the system, realize the benefits of resale points, and find the vacations they need/want.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 6, 2022)

comicbookman said:


> I agree with everything you said, except my experience is that less last minute rentals seem to be available in the locations I used to have no trouble with.  This does not invalidate your observation.  I think use patterns have changed based on the changes, co-vid and an influx of newer owners.  It would be very interesting to be able to do a real comparison based on actual use patterns, but unlikely that that type of information would ever be available outside of Wyndham corporate. (and that is not unreasonable)



Interesting - that's why I said it's an anecdotal observation on my part.  I'm searching for specific inventory at specific resorts when I'm seeing this.  In particular, I often search for last minute inventory in the discount window using my own home town in Delaware state - which would bring me matches for anything within 250 miles of my location (VA/PA/NJ/NYC/MD).  Typically it's rather difficult to get Crestview units in the Poconos during prime seasons - but for the past few months I've consistently found Crestview two bedroom deluxe units within 30 days and three times now we have grabbed them last minute.  I've also seen some last minute inventory pop up at National Harbor and OTA.  Could just be coincidence of course - and the other thing it could be is the pesky accessible units issue we continue to see intermittently.  I can get it to work every time using the Dashboard based search - and one of the three times we found last minute inventory was an accessible unit in Crestview in the Poconos.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 6, 2022)

MaryBella7 said:


> Let me wax poetic. I miss the days when I learned a lot instead of just witness the same arguments over and over in the group. With the changes made by Wyndham, the renting landscape had definitely changed before letters even came out. I suspect that most of the highly desired units and times became more available for owner use and more rentals were of the discounted last call variety, so the letters may have been a bit of overkill.
> At any rate, I have seen little change to my ability to use my points. It was a little more challenging for me to get what I usually was able to get easily last year and this year, but it seems to be easing up as the glut of covid points that were banked get used.
> I don’t think we need to keep on berating the renters or gloating about people who spent a heck of a lot of money on Wyndham losing their benefits. I think they have taken their hits, and they don’t need to be beaten any more. Wyndham did it already. It would be nice to go back to helping new people learn the system, realize the benefits of resale points, and find the vacations they need/want.



I see this already happening in reality.  The level of adversarial posts has dialed down quite a bit starting at the beginning of 2022 up until the present time.  It was at its worst starting around this time last year - when the VIP resale changes were announced and put into place (badly I might add).  Things often got pretty heated from late summer through year end - but I don't see anywhere near the frequency of adversarial posts that we did compared to the last half of 2021 for example.  So TUGGERs are already moving on for the most part.  Sure this stuff still pops up on certain threads - but if you'll notice - some of the worst offenders that promoted this type of thing aren't around any longer.  That's not by accident, and that's as much as I am willing to say on this topic.


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## keno999 (Jul 6, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I see this already happening in reality.  The level of adversarial posts has dialed down quite a bit starting at the beginning of 2022 up until the present time.  It was at its worst starting around this time last year - when the VIP resale changes were announced and put into place (badly I might add).  Things often got pretty heated from late summer through year end - but I don't see anywhere near the frequency of adversarial posts that we did compared to the last half of 2021 for example.  So TUGGERs are already moving on for the most part.  Sure this stuff still pops up on certain threads - but if you'll notice - some of the worst offenders that promoted this type of thing aren't around any longer.  That's not by accident, and that's as much as I am willing to say on this topic.


Yep, for a while the Wyndham forum rivaled the COVID forum - or was it the other way around?


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## chapjim (Jul 6, 2022)

RENTER said:


> I made such a stink here last year and I did it on purpose to draw attention to myself. I sent them what I had posted here directly to the CEO. So they called me. Other people told me they called but they did not tell me who they called. I assumed the corporate office.



I have no difficulty believing you made a stink.


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## bnoble (Jul 6, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> IME in this life - change is the only constant.


I wrote this elsewhere (in a DVC forum) but it applies here too:


> I'm a "strict constructionist" when it comes to buying timeshares. I assume that I will never be promised anything new, and that anything that is not guaranteed will be taken away. [...] If, after all of that, the purchase still makes sense then I am happy to buy. [...] This seems like a very pessimistic attitude, and it probably is. But, it also positions me to weather whatever the developer throws at me without disappointment.


Am I happy when negative changes affect me? Of course not. I mourn those changes, but then I remind myself that the underlying base product is still one that I am happy with, so I am free to continue to enjoy it. In other words:


> we want this purchase to work, to make us happy. It won't make us happy. It will only let us book some timeshare rooms, on a space available basis. The happiness part is up to us.





MaryBella7 said:


> I miss the days when I learned a lot instead of just witness the same arguments over and over in the group.


I've put most of the frequent fliers on both sides of the common arguments on my ignore list, along with the people who just complain without adding value. There are still many helpful posts here, and it is easier to find them once the noise is shunted off to /dev/null. It does make some threads hard to follow, but when I un-hide the ignored posts I usually regret it.


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## bnoble (Jul 6, 2022)

I will add that my "constructionist" stance makes developer purchases almost impossible to justify going forward, because I don't assume the perks will last long enough to pay back the cost difference. I might miss out on a deal here or there but I sleep a lot better at night.


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## noreenkate (Jul 6, 2022)

bnoble said:


> I wrote this elsewhere (in a DVC forum) but it applies here too:
> 
> Am I happy when negative changes affect me? Of course not. I mourn those changes, but then I remind myself that the underlying base product is still one that I am happy with, so I am free to continue to enjoy it. In other words:



Wow great attitude!


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## Rolltydr (Jul 6, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> View attachment 59638


He has a limited vocabulary.


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## comicbookman (Jul 6, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Interesting - that's why I said it's an anecdotal observation on my part.  I'm searching for specific inventory at specific resorts when I'm seeing this.  In particular, I often search for last minute inventory in the discount window using my own home town in Delaware state - which would bring me matches for anything within 250 miles of my location (VA/PA/NJ/NYC/MD).  Typically it's rather difficult to get Crestview units in the Poconos during prime seasons - but for the past few months I've consistently found Crestview two bedroom deluxe units within 30 days and three times now we have grabbed them last minute.  I've also seen some last minute inventory pop up at National Harbor and OTA.  Could just be coincidence of course - and the other thing it could be is the pesky accessible units issue we continue to see intermittently.  I can get it to work every time using the Dashboard based search - and one of the three times we found last minute inventory was an accessible unit in Crestview in the Poconos.



 My observation is also anecdotal, which is why it does not invalidate yours.  I have noticed it is harder to get last minute inventory in both Williamsburg and Nat Harbor.  While nat harbor was always iffy, it is becoming a rarer.  Williamsburg used to be really easy to get las minute reservations and it has definitely tightened up. I am also seeing less availability when I make checks at random resorts. could be continued fallout from the co-vid point glut.


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## bnoble (Jul 6, 2022)

Some of that is likely down to a remaining backlog of pandemic points plus folks haven’t gotten travel out of their system.


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## Jan M. (Jul 6, 2022)

RENTER said:


> I don't have to sue. I ALREADY WON. My guest passes went thru after I received the letter and refused to comply and I made 95% of my money back. I have just a few more to go thru to make up that final 5%.



I know you don't want to hear this but I strongly urge you to be cautious about continuing to add guest names or in thinking your upcoming reservations with guest names on them are safe. You shouldn't be counting on the money from them until after the guests check in. When you hit whatever metric is set in the system then the system will automatically cancel all your upcoming reservations with guest names on them. When that happens Owner Care and Owner Strategies will tell you too bad, so sad.

Here on TUG and in the Facebook group that used to include "rentals welcome" in their name we've seen owners saying I only make enough to cover my maintenance fees so I'm not really renting and it's okay to do that. I don't know when that fallacy began or why it continues but it's right up there with the stories we hear about women who continue to insist they aren't/can't be pregnant even as they're about to push the baby out. Umm, you're being compensated for the reservation so yes you're renting. 




rickandcindy23 said:


> There are people who are being unnecessarily unpleasant on this forum. It's not been fun to read the vindictive posts...



I truly hope I'm not seen as being unpleasant or vindictive. That certainly isn't my intent. I'm no more happy about certain things than other owners who were impacted by changes. What I am is realistic and trying not to be overly pessimistic and nostalgic about how things used to be. In all fairness to us long time owners, we do have a lot to be nostalgic about.





bnoble said:


> My theory is they had better things to do. For now anyway.



Brian's theory is correct. Sometimes the wheel turns slowly, but it turns.




HitchHiker71 said:


> Most of the "mega-renters" no longer post here on TUG either - because they've either exited from Wyndham and don't have a vested interest any longer - or are running silent so as not to draw attention to themselves (since we know Wyndham watches these forums).



Craig is right about that. Almost all of the people who got certified letters or who are currently under a 90 guest suspension have gone radio silent both here on TUG and in the Facebook groups. Some never did post about their business just kept up with the threads and private messaged the OP they wanted to discuss certain things with.


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## RENTER (Jul 6, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> I know you don't want to hear this but I strongly urge you to be cautious about continuing to add guest names or in thinking your upcoming reservations with guest names on them are safe. You shouldn't be counting on the money from them until after the guests check in. When you hit whatever metric is set in the system then the system will automatically cancel all your upcoming reservations with guest names on them. When that happens Owner Care and Owner Strategies will tell you too bad, so sad.
> 
> Here on TUG and in the Facebook group that used to include "rentals welcome" in their name we've seen owners saying I only make enough to cover my maintenance fees so I'm not really renting and it's okay to do that. I don't know when that fallacy began or why it continues but it's right up there with the stories we hear about women who continue to insist they aren't/can't be pregnant even as they're about to push the baby out. Umm, you're being compensated for the reservation so yes you're renting.
> 
> ...


went silent. I talk to them all the time and they are still renting. All you have to do is look at the rental sites to see that. I did things different. I became vocal because I was getting close to paying off my loan. At the time this all started, my rentals had covered 77% of my loans. With the rentals that went thru it is now 95%. I will be done with rentals and guest passes this fall. But at the time I was planning on more developer points. So, I provoked a fight on purpose because I wanted this issue to end for me. Either I was allowed to rent or not. I did not want to be like others who are on pins and needles if they would be targeted or when targeted, do not know who to contact. As for the wheels turning slowly. I created such an uproar on purpose, you would think they would have shut me down right away. As for Wyndham paying attention these sites, NO FAKE JAKE. That is why I did it. Since they are I wonder who they prefer, the jealous crybabies who tell others they are a fool for buying VIP or someone like me who tells others, I listened to the sales agent and did buy VIP and paid for it by renting it out and was successful at it.


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## RENTER (Jul 6, 2022)

Oh I forgot. As for people going silent on FB and other sites. They have been silenced by being removed from the group or site. But again, look at the rental sites, people are still renting.


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## MaryBella7 (Jul 7, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Oh I forgot. As for people going silent on FB and other sites. They have been silenced by being removed from the group or site. But again, look at the rental sites, people are still renting.


Being louder or talking the most doesn’t make you more right.


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## RENTER (Jul 8, 2022)

So far I am turning out to be right. I assume you do not feel the same for those loudmouths who called people fools for buying VIP. Fools for not bending over to Wyndham by not complying and canceling our reservations that we were renting out. When I am being loud, I am responding to the loudmouths who sit on their royal throne and attack others that do not accept their opinion. Especially the loudmouths who accuse those renting of not paying taxes on their rental income. Impossible if they receive a 1099 from the online rental sites they use. But they are correct, after we report our 1099 income and deduct our expenses, we break even and own no taxes.  So which loudmouth wants to take another shot at me? I won this battle so I can ride off into the sunset. But I will respond to loud mouths who think they know everything and judge others who don't do what they want them to do. Step right up and give me your best shot.


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## comicbookman (Jul 8, 2022)

RENTER said:


> So far I am turning out to be right. I assume you do not feel the same for those loudmouths who called people fools for buying VIP. Fools for not bending over to Wyndham by not complying and canceling our reservations that we were renting out. When I am being loud, I am responding to the loudmouths who sit on their royal throne and attack others that do not accept their opinion. Especially the loudmouths who accuse those renting of not paying taxes on their rental income. Impossible if they receive a 1099 from the online rental sites they use. But they are correct, after we report our 1099 income and deduct our expenses, we break even and own no taxes.  So which loudmouth wants to take another shot at me? I won this battle so I can ride off into the sunset. But I will respond to loud mouths who think they know everything and judge others who don't do what they want them to do. Step right up and give me your best shot.



The only load mouth in this thread is you.  I am thrilled that you have gotten to do what you wanted, but you keep claiming you won something and that nobody else's experience is valid.  Then you go off on side rants about taxes and such. based on the quoted post, I assume you will next respond to yourself as you clearly fit the criteria of " loud mouths who think they know everything and judge others who don't do what they want them to do". You seem to think that only your experience is valid and that your interpretation of Wyndham's motives is the only correct one.  In your world only you are smart enough to understand what's going on.  As I said, a am happy you seem to be able to do what you want for now.  Just please stop being so annoyying , adverserial and down right rude here on tug as you attempt to make your point.


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## Eric B (Jul 8, 2022)

RENTER said:


> I can ride off into the sunset.



Sounds like a good plan.  Wyndham does monitor TUG, so that would make sense as the best path forward rather than trying to rile them up.


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## Snippy (Jul 8, 2022)

Interesting that Wyndham called you @RENTER .  I guess my letter asking a question was not flamboyant enough   To follow up, I received that letter in 2021.   And, yes - we were able to enjoy our family vacation last year, plus several more this year when we had extended family and/or friends join us in a smaller fashion of 2-4 units during any trip.  I am beyond disappointed that we carry the threat of being cancelled when we use the timeshare that we purchased in the manor it was advertised.  We are Founders and also have several resale contracts.   We work hard - we check the system regularly to find our trips within 60 days.  We are willing to move rooms during most longer trips.  We minimize the number of points needed for each stay.   As such, the resale will cost more per stay and are working to offload the resale - through certified exit and selling on Ebay same as others here have posted they are doing.  This takes time.  We will reduce our number of points and reduce the times our friends and family will join us.  The changes in resale benefits should naturally reduce the ability for owners to rent - I'm assuming that most people that are/were renting on a  larger scale had a large number of resale.  This along with the owner priority times, and decreased number of guest certificates as well will naturally reduce the ability to rent.  Why does Wyndham need to  send those letters?  Why send them to this year to owners who only rented once or twice?


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## RENTER (Jul 8, 2022)

I believe it was because I went public with my letter trying to intentionally draw attention to myself. I had just bought developer points the year before and was ready to buy more. I wanted the issue over before I bought anymore which I won't.  I was about 50/50 between resale and developer


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## RENTER (Jul 8, 2022)

comicbookman said:


> The only load mouth in this thread is you.  I am thrilled that you have gotten to do what you wanted, but you keep claiming you won something and that nobody else's experience is valid.  Then you go off on side rants about taxes and such. based on the quoted post, I assume you will next respond to yourself as you clearly fit the criteria of " loud mouths who think they know everything and judge others who don't do what they want them to do". You seem to think that only your experience is valid and that your interpretation of Wyndham's motives is the only correct one.  In your world only you are smart enough to understand what's going on.  As I said, a am happy you seem to be able to do what you want for now.  Just please stop being so annoyying , adverserial and down right rude here on tug as you attempt to make your point.


  I will when the loudmouths stop going on the attack and trying to scare other owners. I only respond when attack. As for my experience, others are also having them. Except they cannot tell you because the jealous crybabies had them tossed out of group pages. I am helping seniors rent and they are having no problems and have not received the letters despite using up their quota of guest passes. As going off and talking about taxes, that was aimed at those jealous crybabies who accuse renters off making a profit and not paying taxes. So if you want me to shut up. Don't respond with your jealous BS. But maybe you can get TUG to toss me like many of you did to other owners on FB.


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## comicbookman (Jul 8, 2022)

RENTER said:


> I will when the loudmouths stop going on the attack and trying to scare other owners. I only respond when attack. As for my experience, others are also having them. Except they cannot tell you because the jealous crybabies had them tossed out of group pages. I am helping seniors rent and they are having no problems and have not received the letters despite using up their quota of guest passes. As going off and talking about taxes, that was aimed at those jealous crybabies who accuse renters off making a profit and not paying taxes. So if you want me to shut up. Don't respond with your jealous BS. But maybe you can get TUG to toss me like many of you did to other owners on FB.



There seems to be a lot of jealous crybabies in your world.  Maybe you should move out of the nursery? I don't want you to shut up, I want you t stop acting like a jackass.  Since almost all information passed on via Tug is anecdotal, the more people who report what they see and experience, the better Tug functions.  The only person I see being rude is you, RENTER.  Also you seem to be very jealous of the fact that others have more credibility with this audience than you do.  I think you are projecting.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 8, 2022)

*MODERATOR POST*

The past few posts have been reported to for moderation.  A polite reminder of forum rules - further violations will result in posts being edited/deleted as necessary:

*



			Be Courteous
		
Click to expand...

*


> As we read and respond to others, disagreements are inevitable. Differing points of view are welcomed, and indeed the bbs would be a dull place without them. All users are expected and required to express their disagreements civilly. _Refrain from name calling and behavior lectures. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and repeated offenses could get you banned from the bbs._ Lively discussion is what the board is all about, but that is no excuse for boorish behavior or bad manners. We are assumed to all be adults. If you don't like a particular thread, stop reading it!



Italicized emphasis are mine above for direct reference.  Please re-evaluate your posts and edit them with this in mind.  Let's dial down the rhetoric a bit.  Please make use the Ignore feature to avoid temptation if necessary.


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## RENTER (Jul 8, 2022)

comicbookman said:


> There seems to be a lot of jealous crybabies in your world.  Maybe you should move out of the nursery? I don't want you to shut up, I want you t stop acting like a jackass.  Since almost all information passed on via Tug is anecdotal, the more people who report what they see and experience, the better Tug functions.  The only person I see being rude is you, RENTER.  Also you seem to be very jealous of the fact that others have more credibility with this audience than you do.  I think you are projecting.


accusing people of cheating on their taxes. accusing people of being fools for buying VIP. Yeah right you are correct I am the problem. Oh by the way, for the anti-renters, since you are censoring people and having renters who disagree with you removed, I have been contacted by those you have removed, and they have informed me a class action lawsuit is being filed. So, we will see if the renters have a strong case or a weak case


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## paxsarah (Jul 8, 2022)

RENTER said:


> you


Not sure who “you” is in this post. Is this about the Facebook groups that blocked you, or are you saying renters have been forcibly removed from TUG?


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 8, 2022)

RENTER said:


> accusing people of cheating on their taxes. accusing people of being fools for buying VIP. Yeah right you are correct I am the problem. Oh by the way, for the anti-renters, since you are censoring people and having renters who disagree with you removed, I have been contacted by those you have removed, and they have informed me a class action lawsuit is being filed. So, we will see if the renters have a strong case or a weak case



**MODERATOR POST* *

This forum, and/or TUG as a whole, does not discriminate against renters, nor do we in any way, shape or form, represent any timeshare entity.  The language you're using in your posts seems to be conflating TUG with the timeshare developers here by using accusatory language such as "I have been contacted by those you have removed" for example.  TUG has not removed or blocked any members for rental posts.  Any accounts blocked from TUG are due to repeated violations of the forum rules over time.  In point of fact - we have an entire Timeshare Marketplace section dedicated to timeshare rentals on this site.  Please refrain from such accusatory language in your posts and strive to use more specific language to clearly outline what you're referring to.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 8, 2022)

People on this forum have been rude to the notion of "mega renters."  This has been directed in general toward mega renters, which a lot of assumptions about us not paying our income taxes.  That's not nice.  The comments were directed at all mega renters, not just RENTER, but RENTER seems very sure it was aimed directly to him/ her.  I don't think so.


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## WManning (Jul 8, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> IME in this life - change is the only constant.  Wyndham is definitely changing, of that there is no doubt.  It's glaringly clear to me that Wyndham's current ELT is making sea changes to how Wyndham timesharing is going to work - for better or for worse.  Having been here for 15 years - I'm sure it's difficult to see both the TUG Wyndham culture changing, partly as a result of the changes Wyndham is making - at least in part, and partly because new owners are coming along and old owners are departing and so cultural forum change is also occurring.  This type of change is inevitable even on forums.  I used to be a huge contributor to the MarriageBuilders forums for many years back in the early to mid 2000's for example.  Over time, many of the posters who I knew best moved on over time, and the culture of that forum started changing as well.  While I probably still have a login, I haven't visited in many years now - because I've changed and the forums have changed.  IME seldom does any one thing last a lifetime - forum posters/members included.  Some things happen for a reason, some for a season, and relatively few for a lifetime.  Wyndham, as we so often say, makes the rules.  It's their game, their field, we are just players on the field - and Wyndham clearly has new key players as well - that want the game and the field to look quite a bit different than it does today.  We are just along for the ride for the most part.
> 
> Many of the newer owners that have joined TUG over the past few years also have no real understanding of a lot of what the long time posters refer to when making historical references - the days of old type posts.  Most of the "mega-renters" no longer post here on TUG either - because they've either exited from Wyndham and don't have a vested interest any longer - or are running silent so as not to draw attention to themselves (since we know Wyndham watches these forums).  IMHO those "days of old"  are over for the most part - especially given Wyndham has made enough changes to their systems that have negatively impacted renters so as to start to curtail rental activities over time.  I have no doubt that some of these changes are difficult for long time TUG Wyndham members to witness and to bear.  We can certainly wax poetic about the olden days on occasion - as long as we understand that doing so isn't going to change anything moving forward.  Wyndham is going to continue making changes to how their timesharing system works without a doubt - and these changes aren't going to improve rental experiences as a general rule - at least this is the pattern I have observed especially over the past two years now.
> 
> ...


@HitchHiker71   Are you saying love the one your with? Is it really all about living for today with no guarantee that tomorrow will come. No use rehashing the past bride if you have remarried.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 8, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> People on this forum have been rude to the notion of "mega renters."  This has been directed in general toward mega renters, which a lot of assumptions about us not paying our income taxes.  That's not nice.  The comments were directed at all mega renters, not just RENTER, but RENTER seems very sure it was aimed directly to him/ her.  I don't think so.



I do agree that nothing is personal here on TUG and generally not directed at any one forum member.  A very small subset of forum members who were the worst offenders with respect to railing against any particular subset of the ownership base are, for the most part, no longer here because of repeated violations of the forum rules.  We can agree to disagree and keep civility foremost in mind while discussing said disagreements.  Everyone is fully entitled to their perspectives - no one is entitled to repeatedly violate the forum rules while doing so.  Mega-renting is certainly one of the more contentious topics discussed here on the Wyndham forum over the past year or so without a doubt.


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## comicbookman (Jul 8, 2022)

RENTER said:


> accusing people of cheating on their taxes. accusing people of being fools for buying VIP. Yeah right you are correct I am the problem. Oh by the way, for the anti-renters, since you are censoring people and having renters who disagree with you removed, I have been contacted by those you have removed, and they have informed me a class action lawsuit is being filed. So, we will see if the renters have a strong case or a weak case



Just for your information, I am a palatinum VIP through developer purchases, I used to own a lot more points and rent on the side, not just to cover my fees.  I don't anymore, but I don't have an issue with those that still do.  I have learned many things about how to get the most out of my points over the years form so called "mega-renters".  I am grateful they passed on their knowledge.  After finding Tug, I saved thousands of dollars and got far more for my family out of my points.   passing on Knowledge is Tug's real purpose. That is what I and most tuggers try to continue to do.  You seem to have us confused with the facebook groups, many of which are run by people with personal agendas. Please stick to facts or opinions with explanations. Presenting opinions as fact, and getting rude when challenged is not helping anyone.


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## Rolltydr (Jul 8, 2022)

I would like to point out that stating you disagree with someone, and stating facts and opinions as to why you disagree, is not being rude. It is stating your opinion. In my opinion, mega-renters are breaking the rules of their contract, know they are breaking the rules of their contract and are blaming Wyndham for getting caught and being asked to cease and desist. Some of those megarenters want to rant and state their opinions but when myself or someone else disagrees, we’re accused of being rude. I have just as much right to rant and opine about  the megarenters as they have to rant and opine about Wyndham. As long as we both recognize that we both have our right to our opinion and don’t resort to yelling, name-calling, and the like, we should be able to have a 2-way conversation.


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## RENTER (Jul 8, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> People on this forum have been rude to the notion of "mega renters."  This has been directed in general toward mega renters, which a lot of assumptions about us not paying our income taxes.  That's not nice.  The comments were directed at all mega renters, not just RENTER, but RENTER seems very sure it was aimed directly to him/ her.  I don't think so.


No I did not think it just applied to me. That their target was all mega renters.


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## RENTER (Jul 8, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> Not sure who “you” is in this post. Is this about the Facebook groups that blocked you, or are you saying renters have been forcibly removed from TUG?


I do not know of anyone who has been removed from TUG. But I have been told by other owners they have been censored on FB. I have not because I do not have these discussions there. One of those told me today they were contacted by a lawyer who is preparing a class action lawsuit.


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## RENTER (Jul 8, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> I would like to point out that stating you disagree with someone, and stating facts and opinions as to why you disagree, is not being rude. It is stating your opinion. In my opinion, mega-renters are breaking the rules of their contract, know they are breaking the rules of their contract and are blaming Wyndham for getting caught and being asked to cease and desist. Some of those megarenters want to rant and state their opinions but when myself or someone else disagrees, we’re accused of being rude. I have just as much right to rant and opine about  the megarenters as they have to rant and opine about Wyndham. As long as we both recognize that we both have our right to our opinion and don’t resort to yelling, name-calling, and the like, we should be able to have a 2-way conversation.


one is not rude for having a difference of opinions. You do have the right to voice your opinion.  But one is when 1. They call others fools for buying VIP. 2. They call other fools for wanting to stand up for themselves. 3. They call other fools for question the terms commercial business. 4. They accuse others of profiting and not paying taxes 5. They call others fools for question why they can rent thru Extra Holidays but cannot rent for themselves. They are not just voicing their opinions. They are dismissive in what a renter has to say and it sounds like they want renters hurt and to lose money.  I fight back by telling other renters to ignore them and stand up for themselves.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 8, 2022)

There were so many great people that shared their knowledge about timeshare rentals on TUG.  BocaBum99, Jya-Ning was another one.  We had some great discussions, and an occasional person would complain about "mega renters" and there were so many "mega renters" on TUG that the criticism was immediately shut down on TUG.  I remember BocaBum99 very succinctly said, "If it was there for me to grab at <60 days, it was there for you BEFORE 60 days."  He also said that inventory sitting online for the grabbing was up to you to grab it while you can.  Don't hesitate.  

All of that still applies today.  Stop complaining about people breaking their contracts, when in fact our contracts do not state anything about us not being able to rent.  Sorry, they do not.  A lawyer looked at every page of our contracts and said there is no such language.  

So whatever crazy ideas you all have about us breaking our contracts, not paying our taxes, taking inventory away from you, etc., all of those arguments do not make it truth because you say it.  

@RENTER We have been "mega renters" for 15 years.  So if you think I am picking on you, believe me, I am not.  I think you shouldn't take all of this personally, sure, because I do not.  Oh, sometimes it's a little offensive, but these are just owners who think we take something that belongs to them.  

I want to be done with Wyndham.


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## RENTER (Jul 8, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> There were so many great people that shared their knowledge about timeshare rentals on TUG.  BocaBum99, Jya-Ning was another one.  We had some great discussions, and an occasional person would complain about "mega renters" and there were so many "mega renters" on TUG that the criticism was immediately shut down on TUG.  I remember BocaBum99 very succinctly said, "If it was there for me to grab at <60 days, it was there for you BEFORE 60 days."  He also said that inventory sitting online for the grabbing was up to you to grab it while you can.  Don't hesitate.
> 
> All of that still applies today.  Stop complaining about people breaking their contracts, when in fact our contracts do not state anything about us not being able to rent.  Sorry, they do not.  A lawyer looked at every page of our contracts and said there is no such language.
> 
> ...


I am not taking this personally. I am fighting for all the renters because we did nothing wrong. We did as the sales agents advised and for many of us, we made it work. We have been verbally attacked by those who did not. I take those attacks not just on me but on all of us. I was near the end of paying off my loans so I had nothing to lose fighting back against them and trying to give hope to others who depend on that rental income to pay their loans and fees. Not to surrender but stand up and fight back because you nothing wrong other than offend other owners who did not do what you did and that was hustle to pay off your loans.


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## bnoble (Jul 8, 2022)

The word "rent" doesn't appear as a prohibition, and in fact we are allowed to rent units. I've rented maybe twice in the nearly 15 years I've owned.

However, the various governing documents also prohibit commercial activity. What is that? Who knows, but I would not want to have to have my account suspended while I fight about it in court. Will I continue to hook a friend up in a unit once in a blue moon? Probably. But, if I were planning to rent Wyndham-booked units regularly, I'd find another side hustle instead.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 8, 2022)

bnoble said:


> The word "rent" doesn't appear as a prohibition, and in fact we are allowed to rent units. I've rented maybe twice in the nearly 15 years I've owned.
> 
> However, the various governing documents also prohibit commercial activity. What is that? Who knows, but I would not want to have to have my account suspended while I fight about it in court. Will I continue to hook a friend up in a unit once in a blue moon? Probably. But, if I were planning to rent Wyndham-booked units regularly, I'd find another side hustle instead.


Yeah, and I better stay away from the timeshare hustle.  Too bad our daughter needs the income.  Our grandkids became even more expensive as they got older.  Our granddaughter's ballet classes cost a fortune as a 15-year-old.  

This was always our daughter's gig.  People ask me how it works, and I tell them, "I honestly cannot even tell you how she does it." But she is amazing.


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## CO skier (Jul 8, 2022)

chapjim said:


> More owners means more fees for the attorneys.  More owners does not increase the probability of a judgment in their favor.


Case in point -- the Kirchner class action lawsuit of March, 2020.  There were dozens and dozens of pages from owners "telling their stories."



			https://www.classaction.org/media/kirchner-et-al-v-wyndham-vacation-resorts-inc.pdf
		


The case was so weak, the judge dismissed the complaint in March, 2021.

Who paid the attorney fees?  It definitely was not Wyndham.


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## CO skier (Jul 8, 2022)

bnoble said:


> The word "rent" doesn't appear as a prohibition,



This is the only reference I could find regarding renting:

11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, *including renting to the public*, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee."




bnoble said:


> and in fact we are allowed to rent units.


This is what the Directory has to say about Guest Confirmations:

"Guest Confirmations allow you to share your ownership with family and friends.  Whenever you have a reservation where you, or another owner on your membership, will not be personally checking in and staying in the unit, it is necessary to add a Guest Confirmation to the reservation."


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## Jan M. (Jul 8, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Case in point -- the Kirchner class action lawsuit of March, 2020.  There were dozens and dozens of pages from owners "telling their stories."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To be clear I have no personal experience with class action lawsuits nor have I ever sued anyone or an entity. This is just what I know from shooting the breeze with an attorney who does do class action lawsuits. They are his firm's main focus and his firm seems to have been successful with them. I mentioned that Wyndham seems to get sued a lot which led to a very interesting conversation. I said that from what I'd seen those law suits against Wyndham typically only won on very small points, not the major ones the attorneys and plaintiffs were hoping for and therefore no big payouts. Of course I wouldn't know the details about anything settled out of court because there's always NDAs involved. This attorney told me that in class action lawsuits the law firms get their expenses paid off the top of any settlement or judgment before the money is divided among the plaintiffs or they are paid by the plaintiffs when there's no settlement out of court or they don't win in court. Those expenses are more than you might think. The lawyers want to get as many people as they can involved in those class action lawsuits which takes time and incurs more expenses. I also said that from what I'd observed the individuals usually don't end up getting nearly as much as they and most people think. He indicated that would be his expectation in regards to Wyndham.


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## CO skier (Jul 8, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> This attorney told me that in class action lawsuits the law firms get their expenses paid off the top of any settlement or judgment before the money is divided among the plaintiffs or *paid by the plaintiffs when there's no settlement out of court or they don't win in court*.


The class action attorneys seem no different from the timeshare salespeople or the timeshare exit companies.  They have no skin in the game; their interests are not aligned with their clients; they are just looking for a payday, win or lose.


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## RENTER (Jul 9, 2022)

Here is something else that those who had reservations cancelled or received the letter might want to know. I won't give much detail since they still have several years to pay off their loans. But I know people who are doing the same as I did, renting to pay for the VIP they purchased until they retire and use all the points for themselves. Going on occasional trips now until they can retire. Yet they have had no reservations cancelled or received a letter. They are still renting. WHY? Is it because Wyndham has not gotten around to them?  Or is it that they targeted individuals using certain dates at certain resorts? Is it a coincidence that your 90-day suspension period came during the busy travel months?


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 9, 2022)

A TUG member sent me a PM on this very thing @RENTER.  If some can rent, but others cannot rent, that's not equitable.  And where is the line drawn between what number of rentals are acceptable?  I keep reading all of the Florida law, not to fight Wyndham, but to know what to say to Wyndham when we call about a cancelled reservation with a guest name attached.


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## RENTER (Jul 9, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> A TUG member sent me a PM on this very thing @RENTER.  If some can rent, but others cannot rent, that's not equitable.  And where is the line drawn between what number of rentals are acceptable?  I keep reading all of the Florida law, not to fight Wyndham, but to know what to say to Wyndham when we call about a cancelled reservation with a guest name attached.


You made 2 good points. The first being the PM. I did not know you could PM here on TUG. I was getting them on FB. But the point was that renters are talking to each other in private. Sharing information with each other such as the second point, what to say when you call. That will make the anti-renters sad since they think I am one of the few people who is fighting back, and rentals are still being allowed as long as you prove that you are not a travel agency or something like that. The good news for them is I did not rent during their blackout periods and others do not want to do either. We know when to rent during the off season when other owners do not want to be at the resort.


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## bnoble (Jul 9, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> And where is the line drawn between what number of rentals are acceptable?


I have no inside information, but...my guess is that there isn't any simple answer. This is because the rule is not "you cannot rent anything." It is that "[t]he Program is for a Member's own personal use and enjoyment and not for any commercial purposes." Wyndham is probably going to claim a lot of latitude in interpreting the term "commercial," so I suspect there are a variety of trigger conditions that might attract the attention of whoever it is that is tasked for sending out these C&D letters. For example, it appears that one potential trigger is using one of Wyndham's photographs in your ad. It appears that another potential trigger is advertising on a publicly-available web site to attract customers with whom you did not previously have a relationship. And one trigger might be the ratio of reservations with guest certificates but no co-traveling owner to the total number of reservations in the account. 

These triggers are also likely to evolve over time as clever employees come up with new ways of identifying owners that they believe are problematic, and discover that some existing ways don't work very well.

Wyndham has shown the willingness to shoot first and ask questions later when it comes to freezing accounts or restricting them in other ways, but those owners are still on the hook for paying fees. So in practice the owner will have the burden of convincing Wyndham that what they are doing is not "commercial," and will be bleeding the whole time. This strikes me as a fool's errand for the sort of money we are talking about for almost anyone. Even someone who owns 10MM points is paying mid-five-figures in annual fees, and might be generating low six figures in revenue. You can burn through that on laywers' fees _very_ quickly.


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## comicbookman (Jul 9, 2022)

I also wonder, since it is not hard for Wyndham to notice what reservations go through Koala (the phone number and e-mail that goes on the guest cert are always the same), if they don't consider that commercial activity.  Rentals through Koala generally do little more than cover the cost of maintenance, plus guest fee.  It would be hard to argue that this is commercial activity. (not impossible, just hard to make the case).  Since, as has been pointed out by others it is commercial activity that is prohibited, not renting.


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## Eric B (Jul 9, 2022)

comicbookman said:


> It would be hard to argue that this is commercial activity.



That really depends on one's perspective.  I would say that what Koala is doing is clearly commercial activity - but Koala isn't covered by the terms and conditions of Wyndham ownership as far as I can tell.  On the other hand, I don't really think it would make a whole lot of sense to try to say that an owner offering to fulfill a request by Koala for a booking would be commercial activity - there is no advertising, seeking tenants, or any other hallmark of what anyone could rationally call commercial activity, though that is my subjective opinion, of course.

As for whether someone could make a profit, it seems quite unlikely for an average owner if we use the CWA fees as the basis - $6.93 HOA plus $0.68 program fees per 1,000 points = $7.61 per 1,000 points while Koala's payout is generally ~$7.50 or $7.75.  So it really winds up just letting folks cover their average fees for points they wouldn't otherwise be able to use.  Owners with lower cost points will do better, of course, but there's the capital cost involved, too, so I wouldn't say anyone really ever makes a profit going through that way.  It does, however, provide a much better safety valve for unused points than Extra Holidays is set up to do.  I'm still convinced that if Wyndham really cared about owners, they would either team up with someone like Koala and take a small cut of the rents or modify Extra Holidays to offer something that could compete with Koala while delivering actual value to owners.  If you're reading this, Wyndham, think about it....


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## cbyrne1174 (Jul 10, 2022)

Eric B said:


> That really depends on one's perspective.  I would say that what Koala is doing is clearly commercial activity - but Koala isn't covered by the terms and conditions of Wyndham ownership as far as I can tell.  On the other hand, I don't really think it would make a whole lot of sense to try to say that an owner offering to fulfill a request by Koala for a booking would be commercial activity - there is no advertising, seeking tenants, or any other hallmark of what anyone could rationally call commercial activity, though that is my subjective opinion, of course.
> 
> As for whether someone could make a profit, it seems quite unlikely for an average owner if we use the CWA fees as the basis - $6.93 HOA plus $0.68 program fees per 1,000 points = $7.61 per 1,000 points while Koala's payout is generally ~$7.50 or $7.75.  So it really winds up just letting folks cover their average fees for points they wouldn't otherwise be able to use.  Owners with lower cost points will do better, of course, but there's the capital cost involved, too, so I wouldn't say anyone really ever makes a profit going through that way.  It does, however, provide a much better safety valve for unused points than Extra Holidays is set up to do.  I'm still convinced that if Wyndham really cared about owners, they would either team up with someone like Koala and take a small cut of the rents or modify Extra Holidays to offer something that could compete with Koala while delivering actual value to owners.  If you're reading this, Wyndham, think about it....


Koala is also good for unloading your excess points to get a better HK credits to points ratio. You just fullfill whichever request has the most points and only use 1 HK credit doing so. 

For example, Cypress Palms 1 bedroom suites are discounted for everyone to 6,300 points a night sun-fri (31,500 for 5 nights) and is a 10 min drive to Magic Kingdom. The unit has a fully equipped mini kitchen and washer/dryer. You wouldn't be able to take advantage of these deals if you had to stick to the 1 HK for 70,000 points ratio. Last time I was there, I paid 12,600 points for 2 nights.


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## CO skier (Jul 10, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> For example, Cypress Palms 1 bedroom suites are discounted for everyone to 6,300 points a night sun-fri (31,500 for 5 nights) and is a 10 min drive to Magic Kingdom.


Wow.  What a deal for an Owner who has some leftover points and an HK and does not need to worry about a Guest Confirmation cost.


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## cbyrne1174 (Jul 10, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Wow.  What a deal for an Owner who has some leftover points and an HK and does not need to worry about a Guest Confirmation cost.



Yea I was able to burn through 4 HK credits this summer on 0 current use year points (all borrowed from next year).  I used 4 HK credits on 115,000 borrowed points (3 were Cypress Palms and 1 was Palm-Aire). All were point discounts. You can't bank HK credits. Wyndham changed the rules intentionally so they could pocket the extra $159 HK fee, so the next best thing is to try to spend a decent chunk of your future use year points before they become your current use year points. Otherwise, you would be stuck with too many points and not enough housekeeping if you have to bank your points.

There are some Koala listings that use 200,000+ points and payout is $7.25 for almost no work on your part. It will give you about 2 extra HK to work with since you get 3 of them off 210,000 points. Obviously you don't make much profit, if any, and have to fill out a Schedule E with your 1040 every year, but it allows you to make good use of point discounts offered to all owners.


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## RENTER (Jul 10, 2022)

RENTER said:


> You made 2 good points. The first being the PM. I did not know you could PM here on TUG. I was getting them on FB. But the point was that renters are talking to each other in private. Sharing information with each other such as the second point, what to say when you call. That will make the anti-renters sad since they think I am one of the few people who is fighting back, and rentals are still being allowed as long as you prove that you are not a travel agency or something like that. The good news for them is I did not rent during their blackout periods and others do not want to do either. We know when to rent during the off season when other owners do not want to be at the resort.


Just to let people know, I am going silent. It is not because I was censored or kickoff. I run my own business and work 2 part time jobs helping others because of the labor shortage. So, I do not have time to argue with people who believe their definition of commercial business is more important than the definition the IRS and courts define it as.  I am closing in to paying off my loans and no longer need to rent. I have a handful of guest reservations left that have not been cancelled. So, I no longer need to fight this fight. I wish you other renters the very best in standing up for yourselves. Remember to remind the other owners that rented from you that it was those owners who hate renters that cost them the discounts you used to share with them when then rented from you.


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## comicbookman (Jul 10, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Just to let people know, I am going silent. It is not because I was censored or kickoff. I run my own business and work 2 part time jobs helping others because of the labor shortage. So, I do not have time to argue with people who believe their definition of commercial business is more important than the definition the IRS and courts define it as.  I am closing in to paying off my loans and no longer need to rent. I have a handful of guest reservations left that have not been cancelled. So, I no longer need to fight this fight. I wish you other renters the very best in standing up for yourselves. Remember to remind the other owners that rented from you that it was those owners who hate renters that cost them the discounts you used to share with them when then rented from you.



In that same vein, I would like to announce that I am not going silent and have not been forced to continue to comment, I also have no loans and don't need to rent. (not that that actually matters to anyone other than my spouse and me)


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## chapjim (Jul 10, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Just to let people know, I am going silent. It is not because I was censored or kickoff. I run my own business and work 2 part time jobs helping others because of the labor shortage. So, I do not have time to argue with people who believe their definition of commercial business is more important than the definition the IRS and courts define it as.  I am closing in to paying off my loans and no longer need to rent. I have a handful of guest reservations left that have not been cancelled. So, I no longer need to fight this fight. I wish you other renters the very best in standing up for yourselves. Remember to remind the other owners that rented from you that it was those owners who hate renters that cost them the discounts you used to share with them when then rented from you.



What you don't seem to understand is that the IRS definition of _commercial business_ is not relevant to renting Wyndham reservations.  This is not a tax issue.  The important matter is what Wyndham deems to be _commercial use_ and that is whatever Wyndham says it is.

Can't say I'm sorry to see you go.  Every year or two, we seem to get someone like you who blows into TUG with much bombast and hubris.  They raise a ruckus and leave.  

Sayonara.


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## WManning (Jul 11, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Just to let people know, I am going silent. It is not because I was censored or kickoff. I run my own business and work 2 part time jobs helping others because of the labor shortage. So, I do not have time to argue with people who believe their definition of commercial business is more important than the definition the IRS and courts define it as.  I am closing in to paying off my loans and no longer need to rent. I have a handful of guest reservations left that have not been cancelled. So, I no longer need to fight this fight. I wish you other renters the very best in standing up for yourselves. Remember to remind the other owners that rented from you that it was those owners who hate renters that cost them the discounts you used to share with them when then rented from you.


At times silence can be considered golden.


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## chapjim (Jul 11, 2022)

WManning said:


> At times silence can be considered golden.



Amen!


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## cbyrne1174 (Jul 11, 2022)

chapjim said:


> What you don't seem to understand is that the IRS definition of _commercial business_ is not relevant to renting Wyndham reservations.  This is not a tax issue.  The important matter is what Wyndham deems to be _commercial use_ and that is whatever Wyndham says it is.
> 
> Can't say I'm sorry to see you go.  Every year or two, we seem to get someone like you who blows into TUG with much bombast and hubris.  They raise a ruckus and leave.
> 
> Sayonara.


The "owner update" I went to today was all about things you can do with your excess points. They were talking about donating them to Veterans on RCI, getting a few bucks back per point from Wyndham, or renting them on Extra holidays for %60 cut on only the nights that rent out, which the guests can cancel within your 14 day window! But god forbid you give them to Go Koala essentially at cost just to get your MF covered for the year, that's CLEARLY NOT OKAY. If they don't like people giving their points to Koala, why don't they just match their business model?

They literally would make MORE money on EH if they had just owners deposit their points at 100% MF coverage because people are naturally lazy and most would prefer this route over hunting for a renter and claiming the taxes. It would bypass having to fill out a schedule C on your tax return because it's a reimbursement, not income. Also, they should only use inventory that is available at the 8 month mark (so Club Pass still gets priority over rentals) since owners are depositing points and not reservations. Everyone wins.  Anyone with half a brain would read the EH contract, see that the guest can cancel at 3 days out and only have to rent a portion of the stay and you lose tons of money. But they decide to go with the route of going after owners for making a few extra hundred bucks who are CLEARLY running commercial enterprises instead of fixing their crappy business model that may have worked in the 90s before everyone learned how to google things on the internet.


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## WManning (Jul 12, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> The "owner update" I went to today was all about things you can do with your excess points. They were talking about donating them to Veterans on RCI, getting a few bucks back per point from Wyndham, or renting them on Extra holidays for %60 cut on only the nights that rent out, which the guests can cancel within your 14 day window! But god forbid you give them to Go Koala essentially at cost just to get your MF covered for the year, that's CLEARLY NOT OKAY. If they don't like people giving their points to Koala, why don't they just match their business model?
> 
> They literally would make MORE money on EH if they had just owners deposit their points at 100% MF coverage because people are naturally lazy and most would prefer this route over hunting for a renter and claiming the taxes. It would bypass having to fill out a schedule C on your tax return because it's a reimbursement, not income. Also, they should only use inventory that is available at the 8 month mark (so Club Pass still gets priority over rentals) since owners are depositing points and not reservations. Everyone wins.  Anyone with half a brain would read the EH contract, see that the guest can cancel at 3 days out and only have to rent a portion of the stay and you lose tons of money. But they decide to go with the route of going after owners for making a few extra hundred bucks who are CLEARLY running commercial enterprises instead of fixing their crappy business model that may have worked in the 90s before everyone learned how to google things on the internet.


Keep in mind Wyndham`s  business model is not to help owners rent points to pay their maintenance fees. As a for profit corporation their obligation is to enhance shareholder value. If Wyndham can squeeze out any competition to EH or eliminate anyone buying resale deeds there will be larger profits that create shareholder value. Larger profits and a higher share price helps raise the dividend payout. Remember most corporate executives recieve stock as compensation.


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## Eric B (Jul 12, 2022)

It sure would be nice if some of the timeshare companies were B corporations rather than just sales machines.


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## Rolltydr (Jul 12, 2022)

I never thought about trying to get someone else to pay my bills. If someone gets sick or for some reason can’t drive their car for a month or so, do you try to rent it out to someone to cover your payment and insurance? Why is that a thing with timeshares? Also, it seems more prevalent in the Wyndham system. Is that really the case or does it just seem that way due to the large number of complaints about them on this forum?


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 12, 2022)

Eric B said:


> It sure would be nice if some of the timeshare companies were B corporations rather than just sales machines.


At what point is it okay to say they are a corporation and it's their responsibility to make money for shareholders versus doing the right thing and treating people right? I just fixed a renters air conditioner on the 4th of July. Thought about it real hard, wait a day, save a $160 holiday fee, they didn't call me til the morning of the 4th and I legally had 5 days to fix it (Florida). But I had an 80 year old woman in a very hot house, so decided to fix it, seemed like the right thing to do.  IDK, do you buy from Walmart or do you buy local?


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## WManning (Jul 12, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> I never thought about trying to get someone else to pay my bills. If someone gets sick or for some reason can’t drive their car for a month or so, do you try to rent it out to someone to cover your payment and insurance? Why is that a thing with timeshares? Also, it seems more prevalent in the Wyndham system. Is that really the case or does it just seem that way due to the large number of complaints about them on this forum?


Wyndham looked the other way and ignored the commercial use. They even sold more points to upgrade owners to VIP as a way to rent and cover maintenance fees.  Bottom line just because you break the speed limit daily on your commute to work it dosent make it legal. There always comes a day that local law enforcement decides enough is enough and issues a citation.


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## chapjim (Jul 12, 2022)

The self-righteous drivel continues.


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## Jan M. (Jul 12, 2022)

Yesterday I got a text from another owner about an update they'd done at Royal Vista the day before. Renting was being promoted in the presentation and was the main topic in the group discussion. I asked if it had been discussed as renting through Extra Holidays specifically. He said no, they were all for renting on your own. He said he even had a sit down with the higher ups available and all of them agreed that renting is allowed. Then I asked if he brought up the certified letters and 90 day suspensions for adding guest names. He said yes he did and only one person out of the four knew what he was talking about.

It's beyond outrageous that sales is actively promoting renting as a reason to buy more points. I certainly hope someone in Wyndham reads this and their report gets seen clear to the top of the chain of command.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 12, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> Yesterday I got a text from another owner about an update they'd done at Royal Vista the day before. Renting was being promoted in the presentation and was the main topic in the group discussion. I asked if it had been discussed as renting through Extra Holidays specifically. He said no, they were all for renting on your own. He said he even had a sit down with the higher ups available and all of them agreed that renting is allowed. Then I asked if he brought up the certified letters and 90 day suspensions for adding guest names. He said yes he did and only one person out of the four knew what he was talking about.
> 
> It's beyond outrageous that sales is actively promoting renting as a reason to buy more points. I certainly hope someone in Wyndham reads this and their report gets seen clear to the top of the chain of command.



They know -  they are simply playing dumb.  The cognitive dissonance Wyndham employs in this respect is palpable.  When people are paid solely on commission to sell the product - they are incented not to care about what's best for their customer.  Until they change their sales incentive model (how they pay their salespeople) - nothing will change unfortunately.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 16, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> Yesterday I got a text from another owner about an update they'd done at Royal Vista the day before. Renting was being promoted in the presentation and was the main topic in the group discussion. I asked if it had been discussed as renting through Extra Holidays specifically. He said no, they were all for renting on your own. He said he even had a sit down with the higher ups available and all of them agreed that renting is allowed. Then I asked if he brought up the certified letters and 90 day suspensions for adding guest names. He said yes he did and only one person out of the four knew what he was talking about.
> 
> It's beyond outrageous that sales is actively promoting renting as a reason to buy more points. I certainly hope someone in Wyndham reads this and their report gets seen clear to the top of the chain of command.


This is similar to our salesperson at Bali Hai telling us we get unlimited free guest certificates as platinum to sell us our second platinum membership (conversion of Bali Hai and Shearwater PAHIO weeks).  I told him that ended, no more free unlimited free guest certificates for platinum.  He acted surprised.  I just rolled my eyes in Rick's direction, and of course the salesperson probably saw me, but I cannot control my facial expressions when someone is playing stupid to make a sale.  We still did it for a pittance of what it costs for the status without converting.


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## cbyrne1174 (Jul 18, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> This is similar to our salesperson at Bali Hai telling us we get unlimited free guest certificates as platinum to sell us our second platinum membership (conversion of Bali Hai and Shearwater PAHIO weeks).  I told him that ended, no more free unlimited free guest certificates for platinum.  He acted surprised.  I just rolled my eyes in Rick's direction, and of course the salesperson probably saw me, but I cannot control my facial expressions when someone is playing stupid to make a sale.  We still did it for a pittance of what it costs for the status without converting.


That's when you tell them that you're just going to wait for a presidential reserve ownership at Bali hai to hit the resale market and scoop it up for 15k-20k since the ROI is only 10-12 years with MF that low.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 18, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> That's when you tell them that you're just going to wait for a presidential reserve ownership at Bali hai to hit the resale market and scoop it up for 15k-20k since the ROI is only 10-12 years with MF that low.


This was like 2008.  The conversion has been a blessing for our daughter's ability to stay home.


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## Silverdollar (Jul 18, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> Yesterday I got a text from another owner about an update they'd done at Royal Vista the day before. Renting was being promoted in the presentation and was the main topic in the group discussion. I asked if it had been discussed as renting through Extra Holidays specifically. He said no, they were all for renting on your own. He said he even had a sit down with the higher ups available and all of them agreed that renting is allowed. Then I asked if he brought up the certified letters and 90 day suspensions for adding guest names. He said yes he did and only one person out of the four knew what he was talking about.
> 
> It's beyond outrageous that sales is actively promoting renting as a reason to buy more points. I certainly hope someone in Wyndham reads this and their report gets seen clear to the top of the chain of command.


I am a VIPP member and have owned with Wyndham (formerly Fairfield) for 39 years. In February, my wife and I attended an update at Wyndham Nashville and requested to speak to the Sales Manager. I asked if renting was allow and he said, "yes". Then, I specifically asked if it was only through Extra Holidays (EH) and he said it didn't have to be through EH; it could be through other rental companies, or however I wish to rent. He said my Guest Certificates were mine and I could use them as I see fit. I asked if I could rent to help offset maintenance fees by using other than EH and he said, "Yes".

In May, we attended an update at Wyndham Ocean Ridge and requested to speak to the Sales Manager. Again, I asked if renting was allowed and he said Yes". I asked if it only applied to EH and he said "no". He said I could rent as I see fit. I asked if I could rent to help pay maintenance fees by using other than EH and he said "Yes"

I understand it is not legal to record conversations without permission, but it seems to me that it would carry a lot weight if Wyndham owners corroborated the fact that Sales Centers are regularly communicating that renting is allowed, and not just through EH. Additionally, it is not just being communicated by sales agents, but higher ups in the Sales Centers. Wyndham must be held responsible to speak a consistent, truthful message to owners. Don't tell us we are allowed to rent on the one hand, in order to sell us points, and then threaten to freeze our accounts on the other if we do. This is unacceptable and we are not going to put up with it any more.


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## chapjim (Jul 18, 2022)

Silverdollar said:


> I am a VIPP member and have owned with Wyndham (formerly Fairfield) for 39 years. In February, my wife and I attended an update at Wyndham Nashville and requested to speak to the Sales Manager. I asked if renting was allow and he said, "yes". Then, I specifically asked if it was only through Extra Holidays (EH) and he said it didn't have to be through EH; it could be through other rental companies, or however I wish to rent. He said my Guest Certificates were mine and I could use them as I see fit. I asked if I could rent to help offset maintenance fees by using other than EH and he said, "Yes".
> 
> In May, we attended an update at Wyndham Ocean Ridge and requested to speak to the Sales Manager. Again, I asked if renting was allowed and he said Yes". I asked if it only applied to EH and he said "no". He said I could rent as I see fit. I asked if I could rent to help pay maintenance fees by using other than EH and he said "Yes"
> 
> I understand it is not legal to record conversations without permission, but it seems to me that it would carry a lot weight if Wyndham owners corroborated the fact that Sales Centers are regularly communicating that renting is allowed, and not just through EH. Additionally, it is not just being communicated by sales agents, but higher ups in the Sales Centers. Wyndham must be held responsible to speak a consistent, truthful message to owners. Don't tell us we are allowed to rent on the one hand, in order to sell us points, and then threaten to freeze our accounts on the other if we do. This is unacceptable and we are not going to put up with it any more.



Is the point that renting and "commercial use" are not necessarily the same thing?  When does renting morph into "commercial use?"  Apparently Wyndham corporate knows but the rest of us are still in the dark.


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## Eric B (Jul 18, 2022)

chapjim said:


> When does renting morph into "commercial use?"



That's easy - when it suits Wyndham.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 18, 2022)

Silverdollar said:


> I am a VIPP member and have owned with Wyndham (formerly Fairfield) for 39 years. In February, my wife and I attended an update at Wyndham Nashville and requested to speak to the Sales Manager. I asked if renting was allow and he said, "yes". Then, I specifically asked if it was only through Extra Holidays (EH) and he said it didn't have to be through EH; it could be through other rental companies, or however I wish to rent. He said my Guest Certificates were mine and I could use them as I see fit. I asked if I could rent to help offset maintenance fees by using other than EH and he said, "Yes".
> 
> In May, we attended an update at Wyndham Ocean Ridge and requested to speak to the Sales Manager. Again, I asked if renting was allowed and he said Yes". I asked if it only applied to EH and he said "no". He said I could rent as I see fit. I asked if I could rent to help pay maintenance fees by using other than EH and he said "Yes"
> 
> I understand it is not legal to record conversations without permission, but it seems to me that it would carry a lot weight if Wyndham owners corroborated the fact that Sales Centers are regularly communicating that renting is allowed, and not just through EH. Additionally, it is not just being communicated by sales agents, but higher ups in the Sales Centers. Wyndham must be held responsible to speak a consistent, truthful message to owners. Don't tell us we are allowed to rent on the one hand, in order to sell us points, and then threaten to freeze our accounts on the other if we do. This is unacceptable and we are not going to put up with it any more.


Take a look at the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890.


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## chapjim (Jul 18, 2022)

Eric B said:


> That's easy - when it suits Wyndham.



Exactly my point!


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## cbyrne1174 (Jul 18, 2022)

Silverdollar said:


> I am a VIPP member and have owned with Wyndham (formerly Fairfield) for 39 years. In February, my wife and I attended an update at Wyndham Nashville and requested to speak to the Sales Manager. I asked if renting was allow and he said, "yes". Then, I specifically asked if it was only through Extra Holidays (EH) and he said it didn't have to be through EH; it could be through other rental companies, or however I wish to rent. He said my Guest Certificates were mine and I could use them as I see fit. I asked if I could rent to help offset maintenance fees by using other than EH and he said, "Yes".
> 
> In May, we attended an update at Wyndham Ocean Ridge and requested to speak to the Sales Manager. Again, I asked if renting was allowed and he said Yes". I asked if it only applied to EH and he said "no". He said I could rent as I see fit. I asked if I could rent to help pay maintenance fees by using other than EH and he said "Yes"
> 
> I understand it is not legal to record conversations without permission, but it seems to me that it would carry a lot weight if Wyndham owners corroborated the fact that Sales Centers are regularly communicating that renting is allowed, and not just through EH. Additionally, it is not just being communicated by sales agents, but higher ups in the Sales Centers. Wyndham must be held responsible to speak a consistent, truthful message to owners. Don't tell us we are allowed to rent on the one hand, in order to sell us points, and then threaten to freeze our accounts on the other if we do. This is unacceptable and we are not going to put up with it any more.


Another reason to never buy retail. If we can just have our accounts frozen for literally just renting our points out at cost ($0 profit) and not be given an option to get 100% reimbursement for the points we can't use in a year through Wyndham, then why on earth would anyone pay tens of thousands to a company like that upfront for a membership?


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## RENTER (Jul 21, 2022)

chapjim said:


> What you don't seem to understand is that the IRS definition of _commercial business_ is not relevant to renting Wyndham reservations.  This is not a tax issue.  The important matter is what Wyndham deems to be _commercial use_ and that is whatever Wyndham says it is.
> 
> Can't say I'm sorry to see you go.  Every year or two, we seem to get someone like you who blows into TUG with much bombast and hubris.  They raise a ruckus and leave.
> 
> Sayonara.


It is people like you that makes it difficult to make me keep quiet. You miss that I also pointed out THE COURTS ruled the same when homeowner associations tried to prevent renting under the commercial business clause. Homeowner associations rarely lose except in this case where they always lose. Sorry cherry picking for your wishful thinking just does not work.


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## chapjim (Jul 21, 2022)

RENTER said:


> It is people like you that makes it difficult to make me keep quiet. You miss that I also pointed out THE COURTS ruled the same when homeowner associations tried to prevent renting under the commercial business clause. Homeowner associations rarely lose except in this case where they always lose. Sorry cherry picking for your wishful thinking just does not work.



No wishful thinking here, at least not the way you seem to think.  I wish Wyndham allowed renting.  It doesn't and I don't rent anymore.  I wish someone would win a court case against Wyndham so that Wyndham would be required to allow renting.  Alas, we are not talking about HOAs.  We are talking about a major corporation.

I thought you were leaving.


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## comicbookman (Jul 21, 2022)

RENTER said:


> It is people like you that makes it difficult to make me keep quiet. You miss that I also pointed out THE COURTS ruled the same when homeowner associations tried to prevent renting under the commercial business clause. Homeowner associations rarely lose except in this case where they always lose. Sorry cherry picking for your wishful thinking just does not work.


HOA's, have to deal with zoning laws, and often lose because there is a local definition of comercial use.  Wyndham is unlikely to lose in court if they can present some kind of consistent definition of comercial activity.  HOA's are usually subject to laws specifically directed at regulating them.  With Wyndham contracy law will prevail.  I also note you cite no actaul cases for your assertion. Just your amature opinion.


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## sjdanb (Jul 25, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> *"More owners who tell the story that Wyndham sales agents told them they could rent their points to help them pay for VIP helps their case*."
> No it won't, not even a little. Wyndham already has the legal precedents on their side that they aren't held accountable for what the sales people say. This group and the Facebook groups have repeatedly warned OP that it doesn't matter what the sales person told them if it's not in the paperwork they signed.
> 
> This will be just as successful as when Voyager came out effectively putting a stop to VIP owners being able to book, cancel, rebook and upgrade. I would be willing to bet there were attempted lawsuits over that. Protesting that sales people taught us how to book, cancel, rebook and upgrade, which they did, made not one iota of difference. Five years later it still comes up in the discussions and is still a sore subject with some owners.
> ...


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## sjdanb (Jul 25, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> *"More owners who tell the story that Wyndham sales agents told them they could rent their points to help them pay for VIP helps their case*."
> No it won't, not even a little. Wyndham already has the legal precedents on their side that they aren't held accountable for what the sales people say. This group and the Facebook groups have repeatedly warned OP that it doesn't matter what the sales person told them if it's not in the paperwork they signed.
> 
> This will be just as successful as when Voyager came out effectively putting a stop to VIP owners being able to book, cancel, rebook and upgrade. I would be willing to bet there were attempted lawsuits over that. Protesting that sales people taught us how to book, cancel, rebook and upgrade, which they did, made not one iota of difference. Five years later it still comes up in the discussions and is still a sore subject with some owners.
> ...


Is it really true that "point protection doesn't cover a reservation once a guest name is added"?  Where in the rules is this stated?  That means it never would make sense if I chose to purchase it or if my guest wanted to purchase it for my point protection.


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 25, 2022)

sjdanb said:


> Is it really true that "point protection doesn't cover a reservation once a guest name is added"?  Where in the rules is this stated?  That means it never would make sense if I chose to purchase it or if my guest wanted to purchase it for my point protection.


Apparently... I've not used Points Protection since they added the new terms and conditions (sometime in the last 6 months or so it appeared).  Last time I used it, if you had points protection, you could cancel online, I'm not sure how they enforce these new terms.  I've not used it since they upped the price to $149, the cost alone is prohibitive as far as I'm concerned. Nor would I ever add it until the 15 day mark, and at that point, it would need to be a high point reservation and extenuating circumstances. 

These are the terms and conditions, if you clink on read terms and conditions, when choosing points protection:

TERMS & CONDITIONS

Points Protection Terms & Conditions: When Points Protection is purchased, it allows you to cancel your reservation without forfeiting your points up until the day of check-in. Points Protection may be added to your reservation up to 15 days prior to check-in and may not be added to reservations confirmed with Charitable Gift, WYNDHAM® Club Pass or Plus Partners travel. Additional terms may apply.

For Wyndham Extra Holidays owner reservations, Points Protection only protects points if the entire vacation was not rented; points will not be returned for partial rentals.
Points Protection is only eligible for reservations that involve the personal occupancy and use of an owner or an owner’s immediate family (“Permitted Users”) and for no other purpose including “Commercial Use.” Commercial Use includes, but is not limited to, reserving an accommodation for anyone other than a Permitted User as a regular practice for business, speculative, investment or other similar purposes, or use by an owner of public advertising or an online website to seek renters or other non-Permitted Users. Reservations that are deemed “Commercial Use” are ineligible for Points Protection coverage. Should a reservation identified as Commercial Use have Points Protection coverage, the owner will not receive a refund for any points, reservation transactions, Housekeeping Credits, or monies used to reserve that reservation if cancelled outside of the Standard Cancellation Window.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 25, 2022)

sjdanb said:


> Is it really true that "point protection doesn't cover a reservation once a guest name is added"? Where in the rules is this stated? That means it never would make sense if I chose to purchase it or if my guest wanted to purchase it for my point protection.



For renters, this fact is documented right in the T&Cs for the PP. Click on the link right on the page where you would make this selection. There are screenshots of this verbiage earlier in this thread as well. Technically the term used in the PP T&Cs is “Permitted Users” which is defined in the same verbiage for reference. The terms are capitalized because they refer back to the founding trust documents that provide the official definitions for the terms referenced.  Here's a link to the thread where this topic was discussed:









						Points Protection on a Guest Reservation?
					

Can you add points protection for a guest reservation?  If so would you add the points protection first and then transfer reservation to a guest?




					tugbbs.com
				




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 25, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> For renters, this fact is documented right in the T&Cs for the guest certificate. Click on the link right on the page where you would make this selection. There are screenshots of this verbiage earlier in this thread as well. Technically the term used in the GC T&Cs is “Permitted Users” which is defined in the same verbiage for reference. The terms are capitalized because they refer back to the founding trust documents that provide the official definitions for the terms referenced.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you mean points protection (versus GC)?  I don't see verbiage when adding a GC. In your example are you on the mobile app (versus desktop), I see a link for terms and conditions (on the desktop app), but it's in the body of text not off to the right.  And again, that is when adding points protection (not a GC). Just want to make sure I'm seeing the same thing you are referencing. Thanks.


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## Rolltydr (Jul 25, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> Do you mean points protection (versus GC)?  I don't see verbiage when adding a GC. In your example are you on the mobile app (versus desktop), I see a link for terms and conditions (on the desktop app), but it's in the body of text not off to the right.  And again, that is when adding points protection (not a GC). Just want to make sure I'm seeing the same thing you are referencing. Thanks.


Mobile app?


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 25, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> Mobile app?


I meant is he accessing the website via his cell phone versus his desktop. The presentation can be different. 

You made me look (I am not a fan of doing anything (Wyndham) of importance on my cell phone). But I did. I was curious what you were referencing @HitchHiker71    I misread that as to the right and that is not what you said.  (You said 'this fact is documented right in the T&Cs for the guest certificate'.

Still, I don't see anything when I add a GC. Attached now is a screenshot from my cellphone when adding points protection. I see the link to Terms & Conditions. Are there other references on the website (whether accessing via a cell phone or a desktop) where the rules for permitted users and/or points protection are referenced?


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 25, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> Do you mean points protection (versus GC)? I don't see verbiage when adding a GC. In your example are you on the mobile app (versus desktop), I see a link for terms and conditions (on the desktop app), but it's in the body of text not off to the right. And again, that is when adding points protection (not a GC). Just want to make sure I'm seeing the same thing you are referencing. Thanks.



Yes sorry I meant PP not GC. Thanks for the corrective post. I edited my original post for accuracy.  Here's a link to the TUG thread where this topic was discussed and the screenshots were posted:









						Points Protection on a Guest Reservation?
					

Can you add points protection for a guest reservation?  If so would you add the points protection first and then transfer reservation to a guest?




					tugbbs.com
				




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kenwmey (Oct 25, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> That's a question many owners have asked. I've said that I'm sure Wyndham expects to be challenged on this and that their legal team is very hard at work on trying to prepare a defense.
> 
> They better hope their legal team is a whole lot better than their IT team. Lol


That's a very low bar.  Reminds me of the evaluation I used to give a certain sailor while in the Navy "He fails to live up to the low standards he sets for himself."  

Sorry for the bump of an awesome thread.


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