# Latest WYN outrages cause resale prices to plunge



## acesneights (Jan 23, 2008)

Looks like a penny a point is no longer the benchmark for FSP points. Now half a cent seems like what you can expect to pay.

Why?

HK credits have increased another 50% after increasing 50% about 2 years ago. From $1 to $1.50 to $2.25.

Billing fee is up 20% from $5 to $6.

Tranaction fee is up 20% from $25 to $30.

So, a weekend in a 2BR is going to cost $30 to book, $174 for HK (if you've run out of your allotment), plus $49 if you send a guest.

That's $250 on top of the MF. up from $125 2 years ago.

And the one source for information on Fairfield is gone.

Stan


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Jan 23, 2008)

What one source of Fairfield information is gone?


----------



## acesneights (Jan 23, 2008)

The old Yahoo! group that had 4300 members and 2000 posts a month and email distribution of posts.

There are no new members allowed and the number of posts has dropped by 90%. The new Wyndham owners group has Ed Beck's travels and a few other posts a day. Glenn's group has Glenn's posts and the old Yahoo! archives but few other active posters.

TUG is the most active forum but there is no email based subscription source anymore.

The old family style community is gone forever.

There's no billion point owner's group to call attention to the latest takeaways.

TUGgers are already the most knowledgeable group of timeshare owners on earth, so this is mostly preaching to the choir.

The law of unintended consequences has shown that the result of the "new home" for the old Yahoo! group has been to remove what little check there was on Wyndham's power to squeeze the last drop of value out of the 500,000 FSP owners. Consequently, everyone has lost except the Wyndham executives.

Stan


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Jan 23, 2008)

rickandcindy23 said:


> What one source of Fairfield information is gone?



I think Stan is still lamenting the move of many people from the old Yahoo forum to the Wyndham Owners Forums. Stan doesn't recognize Wyndham Owners groups as a source of information about Wyndham.


----------



## photosmike (Jan 23, 2008)

Stan,

There you go again.  Enough is enough, stop with the wrong headed complaining.  Didn't you learn anything from being banned.

Let it go.  You have to much to contribute to everyone's understanding of Wyndham and FSP to continue with your gripes and distortions.

Mike



acesneights said:


> The old Yahoo! group that had 4300 members and 2000 posts a month and email distribution of posts.
> 
> There are no new members allowed and the number of posts has dropped by 90%. The new Wyndham owners group has Ed Beck's travels and a few other posts a day. Glenn's group has Glenn's posts and the old Yahoo! archives but few other active posters.
> 
> ...


----------



## acesneights (Jan 23, 2008)

Yes, I am. There was a sense of community and a depth of expertise that just didn't follow Glenn to his new 60+ Forum site.

If you discount Glenn's posts, there just aren't that many new posts. Most of the major contributors to the old Yahoo! group have not been active at "new" Wyndham Owners BBS. They may be lurking, but there's no way to tell.

Most of the support group type sites use a listserv type format rather a BBS format so that members can download email and read and reply offline.

TUG essentially has a similar format to the old Yahoo! group in that all things Wyndham are located in this forum. But one still has to read and reply online.

This thread perfectly demonstrates that the debate isn't about what Wyndham has done to drive resale down to 2-3% of retail but about the format war (which both sides lost).

Under new management FF has gone from nickle and dimeing to quarter and dollaring.

The "nominal" service fees now rival the already high MF's making FSP one of the most expensive of the mini-systems.

And while they are building some really nice new resorts, I would estimate that perhaps 25% of their points are from 20 year old or older resorts and 50% at more than 10 year old resorts.

At these prices and annual fees, Disney, Marriott, Hilton have much more uniformly desireable properties and 10 to 30 times the resale value of FSP points.

Essentially every FSP resort is all floating weeks between 13 months and 10 months and the entire system floats at 10 months.

With almost none of the new resorts deposited to RCI, the value of FSP generic deposits continues to sink as the older resorts age.

However, by spending 75% of their sales price on marketing and administration, Wyndham has been able to keep the sales machine cranking out new suckers. Since it's difficult to further cut the 25% they spend on actual construction, the only way to juice profits is to squeeze more from the existing owners through higher fees and VIP takebacks.

But the flow of disappointed owners desperate to unload at any price has resulted in near zero resale prices. 

It appears that for many people resale prices have gone negative as the postcard companies seem to be able to find thousands of owners willing to pay thousands of dollars to unload their increasingly expensive to keep FSP points.

Stan


----------



## photosmike (Jan 23, 2008)

From Stan

"This thread perfectly demonstrates that the debate isn't about what Wyndham has done to drive resale down to 2-3% of retail but about the format war (which both sides lost)."

Stan,

There needs to be discussion, not debate why resale prices has gone down to almost nothing.  In some cases on e-bay, the closing costs exceed the selling price.

As far as the format war, you and only you are continuing with the craziness.  The battle is over.  Leave out the attacks and focus your words on your thoughts about why the price of resale points have dropped so much.

[edited to remove impolite comment]

Present your thoughts in a constructive post and you may start a dialogue that will help us all better understand.


----------



## Jya-Ning (Jan 23, 2008)

acesneights said:


> Looks like a penny a point is no longer the benchmark for FSP points. Now half a cent seems like what you can expect to pay.



??? since when?

Last I check, this Jan, the cost is around a penny plus a point on avg.  I just casually viewing the eBay completed price, and it is around that range also.  Maybe you can share with us where you can find places that sell half a cent a point as norm, I'd like to buy stuff there.

Jya-Ning


----------



## refumpcpa (Jan 25, 2008)

*1/2 cent per point is about right*



Jya-Ning said:


> ??? since when?
> 
> Last I check, this Jan, the cost is around a penny plus a point on avg.  I just casually viewing the eBay completed price, and it is around that range also.  Maybe you can share with us where you can find places that sell half a cent a point as norm, I'd like to buy stuff there.
> 
> Jya-Ning



I bought at Star Island 126,000 bi-ennial points on eBay.  My winning bid was $360.  Seems like if you want hi demand spots as your home resort, you're going to pay 1.5 to 2 cents per point, but otherwise you can get into the system cheaper and reserve what you want at the better locations.  You may not get Christmas week, but if you have flexibility, you'll have no problems getting the good locations.:whoopie:


----------



## timeos2 (Jan 26, 2008)

*Thanks for the resale deals Wyndham*

Depending on the resort and the type of contract (week conversions are even less desirable than UDI based points) the resale rate for FSP points seems to be at a high of $.03 and a low of $.001. Can't get much lower than that on the low end can you?  

This is a direct result of the concerted effort by your "friends" at Wyndham sales believing that by creating confusing tiers of bogus VIP perks and disparaging non-Developer purchases they are making the grossly inflated Developer points prices "better deals".  Add in the total ignorance of most first time FSP buyers and, incredibly after all this time, the gullibility of existing FSP owners willing to pay the unbelievable premium required to be "VIP" for the nearly worthless and ever declining perks and, so far, it's worked. 

But really. How long can you continue to sell points @ $.15 or so when on day 7 to 14 of ownership 90% or more of the value goes poof?  This sales model is going to implode OR have to be fixed to return value to resale at some time.  Right now is the true golden age of value for those wise enough to recognize the fire sale value in resale FSP points. If Wyndham wises up (and history is NOT promising) those points may someday have a great resale value far above todays prices. But just as likely is a scenario where the retail side is  forced to cut prices or simply stop new development as they cannot get the outrageous rates they need to support that operation. In that case all FSP points will bottom out and fees may skyrocket even more as that will be the sole source of income for Wyndham resorts. Lets hope it's number one but Wyndham seems far more capable of producing tons of number two.  Whats that smell?


----------



## bnoble (Jan 26, 2008)

> week conversions are even less desirable than UDI based points


Just an aside, but this is not necessarily true.  I have a converted fixed week, but as it is a larger unit in a high season, it's MF/K ratio is very low---lower than nearly any UDI deeds I'm aware of.  True, the MFs are paid a year in advance instead of a year in arrears, and can only ARP my specific week, but from a "points are points" perspctive, it's a good week to own.


----------



## PerryM (Jan 26, 2008)

*Let's see - 90% of what?*

I am constantly surprised that some developers want the product they just sold to be worth 10% 5 minutes after the ink dries on the sales contract - an instant 90% loss.  Wyndham works very hard at doing this.  The VIP program is a prime example of the developer hell bent on destroying the resale market.

And for what purpose?  The wider the gap between what they sell and the owners sell the harder it is to sell their product.  When Wyndham sells a Point for 14 cents and the same Point is for sale for 1 cent then why should the prospective owner buy the 14 cent Point?  Resales are but 10% of developer’s prices.

Wyndham; the goal is to do what the #1 timeshare developer does, have resales be 90% of the developer’s price and just about every owner has a profit because of the increasing price from the developer.  That developer is Disney and they don’t even sell a timeshare – they sell a Right To Use their condos.

Wyndham – you got it backwards your resale prices should be 90% of your prices and you will have little competition from them.  Count your lucky stars that Ma and Pa are stupid and never check a major purchase on Google.  

Dumber is better in the timeshare world…


----------



## bnoble (Jan 26, 2008)

> The wider the gap between what they sell and the owners sell the harder it is to sell their product.


Only in the presence of an efficient market wtih good information.  I suppose you could argue that we might be there pretty soon, but we aren't there yet.


----------



## PerryM (Jan 26, 2008)

bnoble said:


> Only in the presence of an efficient market wtih good information.  I suppose you could argue that we might be there pretty soon, but we aren't there yet.



Ignorance is a very expensive commodity.  

I just bought 2 replacement filters for our Culligan water filter in our kitchen.  I originally bought the in-sink unit at Sears and dropped by to buy a set.  Sears was bought by K-mart and is dumbing down its stores by the minute.  They no longer carry the unit nor the filters.

I flipped open my Sprint Mogul cell phone in the car and did a Google search and found that Ace Hardware stores carry the newest version and the filters.  I did a price search and found that Ace sells them thru Amazon and ordered the filters and paid via my PayPal account.  All while sitting in my car.  I can use the UPS tracking number to instantly tell me where my water filters are and when I will get them.  All on my cell phone.

I'm 61 years old in 2 months and I guess that there are some baby boomers who wallow in ignorance but don't put me in that group.

I can do a Google search from anywhere at anytime and get information on my cell phone that allows me to make smarter decisions and get a lot more bang for the buck.

Ignorance is no excuse anymore - just flip open that cell phone.


----------



## bnoble (Jan 26, 2008)

Yes, but filters are largely a commodity---I just did the same thing a couple weeks ago for filters for my whole-house humidifier, but I skipped the going-to-Sears step and started at froogle.google.com from the start.  Took all of five minutes, I saved about 50% over what my local hardware store would have charged, and the transaction was consummated with me in my jammies.  I had my filters the next day.

Timeshares aren't that simple yet.  Even TUG, which is about as good a source as it gets, is highly fragmented with little nuggets of information scattered all over the place.  It took me a good six months of on again/off again reading to learn enough to figure out what I wanted to buy for my particular vacation needs, and how much I wanted to pay for it.

On the other hand, I will admit that anyone who is sitting in a presentation---even if they sign---that doesn't immediately type the name of the resort and "buy" into google is an idiot.  And, if most folks did that, Wyndham would be out of business tomorrow.


----------



## PerryM (Jan 26, 2008)

bnoble said:


> Yes, but filters are largely a commodity---I just did the same thing a couple weeks ago for filters for my whole-house humidifier, but I skipped the going-to-Sears step and started at froogle.google.com from the start.  Took all of five minutes, I saved about 50% over what my local hardware store would have charged, and the transaction was consummated with me in my jammies.  I had my filters the next day.
> 
> Timeshares aren't that simple yet.  Even TUG, which is about as good a source as it gets, is highly fragmented with little nuggets of information scattered all over the place.  It took me a good six months of on again/off again reading to learn enough to figure out what I wanted to buy for my particular vacation needs, and how much I wanted to pay for it.
> 
> On the other hand, I will admit that anyone who is sitting in a presentation---even if they sign---that doesn't immediately type the name of the resort and "buy" into google is an idiot.  And, if most folks did that, Wyndham would be out of business tomorrow.



Technology is pushing back the frontiers of ignorance on a daily basis.

Any industry, like the timeshare industry, that counts on ignorant/dumb customers is going to have a rude awaking one day.

This maybe the ultimate nail that pops the Timeshare Bubble that I believe we are now in and will someday burst with horrifying consequences to 4 million American families.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Jan 26, 2008)

*The $ound Of $izzle.*




timeos2 said:


> How long can you continue to sell points @ $.15 or so when on day 7 to 14 of ownership 90% or more of the value goes poof?  This sales model is going to implode OR have to be fixed to return value to resale at some time.


I'm sure that is correct.  But just imagine how difficult it is for the timeshare company to think about selling steak while their profit margin is so high in the business of selling sizzle. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## bnoble (Jan 26, 2008)

So, I was thinking about something vaguely related to this sizzle vs. steak idea in reaction to a recent Shadow note over on streettalk.

http://streettalkblog.com/?p=2185

I have _never_ been to a developer presentation.  And, I never expect to.  
Why?  One: because they have nasty reputations.  Two, if you add up the value of the incentives, I would be much better off working another billable hour for a client than I would be going to a presentation that "lasts only 90 minutes," let alone the fact that my wife (who also bills by the hour) would have to come too.

It seems to me that the incentives and presentation design practically guarantee that high-end clients will never come to one.  Why would a guy making $100K/year kill two hours of his vacation for a set of steak knives and a "discount" on the local feedbag buffet?  

What's more, someone maknig that kind of scratch probably has an honest-to-god understanding of the time value of money, rendering nearly every timeshare presentation trick in the book moot.  

My brother and his wife---a dual MBA couple with pretty good incomes, a couple of young kids, and spare time to vacation---went to an HGVC presentation in Orlando.  First, the weasel ignored the purchase price, and then amortized it interest free across some ridiculously long horizon.  The _instant_ he did that, my brother and his wife were done.  After a bit of "how can you waste our time" harassment by the first back-end closer, they got up, read the guy the riot act, and walked out, skipping gifting, because hey, they don't need the gift all that much anyway.

They will now never own a timeshare week.  Ever, at any price.

But, they actually could have been shown a reasonable financial analysis vs. direct-from-Hilton rental rates, been convinced that this will save them a nice sum of money over renting direct, and purchased.  Maybe not right then, but sent home with paperwork to think it over.  That would have had a much better chance of closing the sale.

The developer that figures this out stands to make a lot of money.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Jan 26, 2008)

bnoble said:


> Timeshares aren't that simple yet.  Even TUG, which is about as good a source as it gets, is highly fragmented with little nuggets of information scattered all over the place.  It took me a good six months of on again/off again reading to learn enough to figure out what I wanted to buy for my particular vacation needs, and how much I wanted to pay for it.
> 
> On the other hand, I will admit that anyone who is sitting in a presentation---even if they sign---that doesn't immediately type the name of the resort and "buy" into google is an idiot.  And, if most folks did that, Wyndham would be out of business tomorrow.



Brian, that is so true!  And perhaps Wyndham/ Fairfield would really rethink ripping away benefits from resale buyers.  Plus, they would be forced to protect resale value.  

I still don't know how anyone could make an informed decision after a 1 1/2 hour presentation.  It's too bad they don't change the model completely on timeshare sales, because new buyers just end up disgruntled because they don't know how to use what they bought.  Then they pay upfront fee and postcard companies to get rid of their purchase.  

I love buying Fairfield points on the resale market, but I feel badly for the original owner when I get a great deal.  Someone was disappointed with their purchase,  and here I am, buying those points for a tiny percentage of what they paid.


----------



## bookworm (Jan 26, 2008)

I wonder, too, how anyone can make a significant financial decision in such a short time? I would think people generally spend a lot more time shopping around for $20000+ purchases like cars, for example. I guess it is larger based on emotional response and the particular ability of the salesperson to make a connection. Depending on a person's patterns of decision-making, it will work with some and not with others. And then there are those who return home and ultimately feel terrible about the decision they made. This is WAY too much angst for people in an already stress-filled world. With this model, you could not pay me enough to sell timeshares.

As much as I like a great deal, I can relate to feeling badly about the ones who had to get rid of the timeshare and take such a financial loss. I make sure to tell people I know who ask about our timeshare ownership to NEVER make a rash emotional decision about it since that is how the industry seems to work.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Jan 26, 2008)

*So Many Timeshare Companies, So Few Timeshare Biz Models.*




rickandcindy23 said:


> It's too bad they don't change the model completely on timeshare sales, because new buyers just end up disgruntled because they don't know how to use what they bought.  Then they pay upfront fee and postcard companies to get rid of their purchase.


OK, so the timeshare biz is just 1 tiny slice out of the whole travel & vacation pie.  Even so, isn't it big enough for somebody to break out of the straitjacket & try a new biz model ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## bccash63 (Jan 29, 2008)

Wyndham points on ebay right now #350019988864 332,000 odd yr for a buy it now price of $1327.00!! This is about .8/pt .  Maint fees $35.80/mo not unusually high.  This seems very cheap.  Dawn


----------



## Pup (Jan 30, 2008)

I am a happy winner of an e-bay auction last night . 203,000 FF points annually at Williamsburg Kingsgate for $1700. I was at Fairfield Bentley Brook 2 weeks ago- Sales Rep wanted something like $30,000 for the same amount of points. What's wrong with this picture? I too feel sorry for the original owner, but to pay full price is just plain crazy!


----------



## timeos2 (Jan 30, 2008)

*Resale is a tremendous bargain in Wyndhm Points*



Pup said:


> I am a happy winner of an e-bay auction last night . 203,000 FF points annually at Williamsburg Kingsgate for $1700. I was at Fairfield Bentley Brook 2 weeks ago- Sales Rep wanted something like $30,000 for the same amount of points. What's wrong with this picture? I too feel sorry for the original owner, but to pay full price is just plain crazy!



Congratulations.  We too bought our resale points at Kingsgate (256,000) and have enjoyed stays at every Wyndham resort we've ever requested - new, old, "hard to get", often in the Presidential Suite or Penthouse unit if we felt like splurging that amount of points. We have never been VIP and don't need it. The FSP system functions nearly perfectly for our needs and we don't need to spend more.  12 years and counting of wonderful and predictable vacations with very reasonable costs.  

Since we paid resale value to start with even if we have to resell at low levels we're not losing 90% as a retail buyer would be.  We have built-in price protection by buying low at the start.   

Enjoy your points.


----------



## Lisa P (Jan 30, 2008)

refumpcpa said:


> I bought at Star Island 126,000 bi-ennial points on eBay.  My winning bid was $360.



Assuming you paid the typical $399 in closing and transfer, this is 1.2 cents per point.  Nice deal!  But not the half-cent suggested earlier in this thread.



bccash63 said:


> Wyndham points on ebay right now #350019988864 332,000 odd yr for a buy it now price of $1327.00!! This is about .8/pt .  Maint fees $35.80/mo not unusually high.  This seems very cheap.  Dawn



It sold for the Buy It Now price.  This package is equivalent to 166,000 annual points, so the buyer got it for .8-1.1 cents per point, depending on whether the Buy It Now price included the listed $399 closing and $100 transfer fees with it or not.  Either way, they got a nice deal (and yes, the maint fees, $509.60/yr incl taxes, are quite reasonable for this amount of points).  Still not the half-cent suggested.



Pup said:


> I am a happy winner of an e-bay auction last night . 203,000 FF points annually at Williamsburg Kingsgate for $1700.



Good for you.  That's .8-1.1 cents per point (again, depending on closing & transfer fees).  Nice deal.  

I suspect that the half-cent pricing is colored by eBay purchases which have basically been giveaways.  These are mostly offseason, converted weeks which carry such high maint fees for the number of points they afford, that they are not a valuable purchase.  They sit for weeks of relistings without bids and finally are given away with free closing costs and sometimes, a freebie week (no maint fees) thrown in.    Why the original owner didn't just give away the underlying fixed week in the first place is a wonder, since converting it to points didn't grant enough points for flexibility and the maint fees went up with the FSP fee.  Sad, sad, sad.

Wyndham FSP points which are UDI or associated with a strong underlying converted week are still going for at least 1 cent per point on eBay and 2 cents per point (or more, depending on home resort) through resellers, from what I can see.


----------



## Pup (Jan 30, 2008)

timeos2 said:


> Congratulations.  We too bought our resale points at Kingsgate (256,000) and have enjoyed stays at every Wyndham resort we've ever requested - new, old, "hard to get", often in the Presidential Suite or Penthouse unit if we felt like splurging that amount of points. We have never been VIP and don't need it. The FSP system functions nearly perfectly for our needs and we don't need to spend more.  12 years and counting of wonderful and predictable vacations with very reasonable costs.
> 
> Since we paid resale value to start with even if we have to resell at low levels we're not losing 90% as a retail buyer would be.  We have built-in price protection by buying low at the start.
> 
> Enjoy your points.



Thank You- I did not do a heck alot of research and kinda went into this on a whim, but we travel about 5 weeks a year, love Williamsburg (own at Powhatan biannual) and fell in love with Bentley Brook slopeside a few weeks ago. I just hope I wll be able to get into all the resorts we choose throughout the year


----------



## carlbarry (Feb 3, 2008)

I got stuck going to a presentation at Bonnet Creek in March, 2006.  I knew absolutely nothing about timeshare, but I was luckily smart enough to look around and realize that the people they were selling to for $25,000 and ONLY 20% interest, would never be able to continue payments, and would have to sell at a discount.
When I got home, I did some research.  Was I shocked to see what the points were selling for on eBay! I had to take a second presentation there in December of 2006.  I figured I'd be smart and tell the saleswoman she was wasting her time, as I know I can buy the same thing on eBay for 90% less.  They then tried to tell me all the benefits of buying direct--I could get a credit card that would earn money to pay my maintenance, I could invite friends to presentations and be credited towards my maintenance (how many friends would you want to do this too--and how many would still be your friend after?), etc.  She even tried to get me to buy by saying, "You know what, Carl, I really don't think you can afford this. That's why you're not buying--you just don't have the money."  How's that for a subtle sales technique?
 So I kept watching the prices on eBay, and in December 2007 bought 49,000 points at Star Island for $100, with $348 closing costs.  I think that was a pretty good price, but reading these posts, I'm concerned about how all the already rip-off fees have been increased.


----------



## tcornel (Feb 12, 2008)

*Converted weeks vs UDI*

I agree with Brian.  Actually I will go so far as to say the best possible scenario is a prime converted fixed week.

2 examples.......Sea Garden 231k converted prime weeks have maintenance, taxes and the FSP program fee of just over 700.  I am not at the office so I do not have exact figures but this is close.   Just over 3 a thousand in maintenance fees.  This year fees went up but property taxes dropped.
That is about a 1.75 savings a thousand points over the typical udi deed.

Or take the case of the week 26, oceanfront Westwinds deed that is 175000 points..   Each year I have the exclusive choice of using the week or do nothing and at 10 months have the points.  No sitting on the phone 13 months ahead to try to book a unit while competing with all the other deed owners.

The potential for substantially lower fees and exclusive ARP rights make a carefully selected converted fixed week a winner.

Tom


----------

