# NEW Info on Marriott/Westin/Sheraton Consolidated Product



## Gemini Chica (Dec 17, 2020)

As MVC enrolled owners, what will the reality be of this merger, does it mean when we book with our DP we will just have more choice including Westin, Sheraton + Vistana or how till it work?


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## dioxide45 (Dec 17, 2020)

That is the $1,000,000 question.


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## bogey21 (Dec 17, 2020)

One thing I can almost guarantee is that there will be an effort to get you to separate you from more of your money...

George


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## bazzap (Dec 17, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> That is the $1,000,000 question.


Hopefully that won’t be the internal trading fee - haha


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## Dean (Dec 17, 2020)

Gemini Chica said:


> As MVC enrolled owners, what will the reality be of this merger, does it mean when we book with our DP we will just have more choice including Westin, Sheraton + Vistana or how till it work?


As noted, no one knows.  I'm hearing rumors that there might be some form of introduction the second quarter of next year but we'll see.  There are lots of directions they could go but my guess is they'll run each system independently with a crossover much like the enrolled and trust owners do now.  I also suspect the higher MVC tiers will be included automatically and that the hook will be for lower tier and non MVC members to pay to qualify.  I wouldn't be surprised if this included an increase in the requirements for various levels and possibly even for an additional higher level within MVC.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 17, 2020)

When they first announced at their Fall 2019 Investor Day presentation that there would be some sort of crossover system, they described it as two phases:

Phase 1 - a common points currency
Phase 2 - a common points product

My interpretation of that was that Phase 1 would probably be the crossover concept @Dean mentioned just above where they would still sell both Destination Points and StarOptions, but would have some mechanism/common currency for each to be used to book all MVC, Westin, and Sheraton properties. Then, it would seem that Phase 2 would see them transition to selling only one points product across all three brands. 

At that Fall 2019 investor presentation, they said the timing of Phase 1 would be second half of 2020 and Phase 2 was to be determined. Clearly, COVID has delayed their plans, perhaps significantly. We heard the same "second quarter 2021" rumor, that Dean mentioned, last month in a sales presentation at Crystal Shores. So, we'll see what happens.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 17, 2020)

After I posted the info just above, I went to the Marriott Vacations Worldwide investors web page and found a presentation the CFO, John Geller, did on December 2 at the Barclays Bank "Eat Sleep Play 2020" virtual conference. In that presentation, he specifically references a common points product that they plan to be selling at all Marriott/Westin/Sheraton sales centers in 2022. He said they were working on the technology now.

Below is a link to the recording, but below that, I've quoted and summarized some of the key points that would be of interest to TUGgers:

Marriott Vacations Worldwide at Barclays Eat Sleep Play 2020

Here is the most important thing said by John Geller about the upcoming combined product form:

"_The other thing which we haven't done yet - and the goal is still to get to this in 2022 - we still sell the same products that were sold prior to the acquisition. We've got the Marriott Vacation Club, we've got the Westin Flex product, we've got the Sheraton product. So, the idea is to have a consolidated product for all of the Marriott brands - Hyatt will always be a separate platform, a separate licensor - but you get to one product form that you're selling to all of your folks at the sales table, as well as the benefit of bringing all of these resorts together under one cohesive product form, that's the opportunity. There are a lot of technology and things that we are going through right now to get to that point, but that's still a broader opportunity, that when you sit down today across the table from somebody if you are at a Marriott Sales Center, we're just pitching you the Marriott resorts - which is still a great portfolio of resorts - but in the future we'll be able to include the Westin and the Sheraton because they will be a part of that, call it a consolidated product form, in a way that will allow us to sell it a little differently, which will increase the value proposition." _

Previously, in other investor presentations, they had spoken of two phases with Phase 1 being a "common points currency" and Phase 2 being "a common points product to sell". It sounds like above he may be referring to the Phase 2, since he mentions "_one product form that you're selling to all of your folks at the sales table". _He clearly says they hope to get to that point in 2022, but is not clear if they still have a two-phase approach. If it is indeed still two phases, then it is conceivable that they could perhaps introduce a common currency sometime in 2021 (second quarter has been rumored/reported from sale presentations), with the full consolidated product rolled out sometime in 2022. So, it's still not 100% clear what the timeline is, but this does offer a few nuggets.

There were also a few of other things that I learned from the presentation and will just summarize below:

Geller said they were very excited about the expansion opportunities presented by the Hyatt product. It is a high-end product with a smaller, more limited network, so there is great opportunity to use MVW's resources to expand that brand into new markets where they are not currently. He implied they were ready to put major resources into Hyatt when COVID hit, so once things normalize in 2021 or 2022, Hyatt may see a major expansion. But he made clear that those locations would never be combined into the Marriott/Westin/Sheraton consolidated product.
They have sold their development parcel in Cancun since, once the common product is in place, all MVC owners will have access to the Westin properties in Mexico, making that property expendable.
They have also completed the sale of excess parcels in Orlando.
They have another $90 - $140 million of property to be disposed of. Some of this property is operating hotels that came with the ILG acquisition. He said they may convert some of that to timeshare, but that they do not want to be a long term owner of operating hotels. They will find a third party that wants to own the hotels and sell to them. He said they were in "first rate locations" and specifically mentioned Kauai and Puerto Vallarta.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 17, 2020)

[deleted due to redundancy with post #7]


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## Gemini Chica (Dec 17, 2020)

Thank you!


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## Dean (Dec 17, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> After I posted the info just above, I went to the Marriott Vacations Worldwide investors web page and found a presentation the CFO, John Geller, did at a Barclays Bank conference a couple of weeks ago. In that presentation, he specifically references a common points product that they plan to be selling at all Marriott/Westin/Sheraton sales centers in 2022. He said they were working on the technology now.
> 
> I've posted the details in a new thread, since this is significant new information that has not before been posted here to my knowledge. Below is a link to that new thread:
> 
> ...


I still suspect any common currency will be tied to the current MVC system in large part.


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## Gemini Chica (Dec 17, 2020)

@Dean Meaning when we log into MVC we just see more resorts but book the same way?


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## Dean (Dec 17, 2020)

Gemini Chica said:


> @Dean Meaning when we log into MVC we just see more resorts but book the same way?


My statement was pretty broad.  My best guess is there will be a separate system that the higher levels of MVC will be able to book into directly that works much like the current enrolled system does now.  Not that much different than access to the Ritz for example.  Whether one will have to upgrade to a higher level, pay an additional fee to participate or some other options no one knows that is talking.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 17, 2020)

Dean said:


> My statement was pretty broad.  My best guess is there will be a separate system that the higher levels of MVC will be able to book into directly that works much like the current enrolled system does now.  Not that much different than access to the Ritz for example.  Whether one will have to upgrade to a higher level, pay an additional fee to participate or some other options no one knows that is talking.


How does this however play into a combined points product to sell? If they somehow merge all the programs into a single trust, then they couldn't block out certain owners that own in that trust? Perhaps if they have a new exchange company they can limit who can or can't cross between brands, but a single product sounds like a new trust, doesn't it?


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## SueDonJ (Dec 17, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> ... I'll leave it up to the moderators whether they want to recombine that new info back into this thread, but I felt it was a significant enough bit of new intel that it was worthy of its own thread.



I like the idea of a new thread rather than merging with any of the other speculation threads, so have merged the two threads opened today and we'll go from here. I kept your thread title because it makes the topic clear.


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## Dean (Dec 17, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> How does this however play into a combined points product to sell? If they somehow merge all the programs into a single trust, then they couldn't block out certain owners that own in that trust? Perhaps if they have a new exchange company they can limit who can or can't cross between brands, but a single product sounds like a new trust, doesn't it?


My prediction is a new currency that is seamless for those that qualify that works between the systems much like the DC system does now.  I further predict that the 2 highest levels in MVC will be grandfathered and have direct access without further investment.  I suspect they will either create an additional level within MVC or increase the requirements.  They might end up with a new trust that is combined with the current trust or a separate trust which could  work as I described in principle.  If they combine as a single trust they'll have to either adjust the qualifications under the current system or give those who are in the trust and/or DC system complete access.  They'll want to monetize the majority of the current owners so I don't see them giving the entire DC system complete access.  We'll see, it's all just speculation at this point.


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 17, 2020)

I predict that those of us who aren't in either "system" and just own weeks will still be left out in the cold.  That is a pretty good prediction, don't you think?  I am not in either point system.  I have nothing to lose--or gain, as the case may be.


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## Dean (Dec 17, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I predict that those of us who aren't in either "system" and just own weeks will still be left out in the cold.  That is a pretty good prediction, don't you think?  I am not in either point system.  I have nothing to lose--or gain, as the case may be.


As it is now.  At least you realize you're not losing even if others might gain.  I predict there will be posts from others who see others' potential gain as their loss and are unhappy just as we saw with the DC system (and still do).


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## JIMinNC (Dec 17, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> I like the idea of a new thread rather than merging with any of the other speculation threads, so have merged the two threads opened today and we'll go from here. I kept your thread title because it makes the topic clear.



Since you combined the two threads, I edited my posts #7 and #8 to eliminate the redundancy and avoid confusion.


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## bobpark56 (Dec 18, 2020)

We own with both MVCI and Vistana. We have yet to see anything from the merger that benefits Vistana owners.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 18, 2020)

bobpark56 said:


> We own with both MVCI and Vistana. We have yet to see anything from the merger that benefits Vistana owners.


You can trade in to Marriott properties through Interval International for the reduced exchange fee of $154.


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## Dean (Dec 18, 2020)

bobpark56 said:


> We own with both MVCI and Vistana. We have yet to see anything from the merger that benefits Vistana owners.


As noted, cheaper exchanges "internally" and preference for exchanges.  And the reverse is true for MVC owners as well.  Personally I don't feel the Vistana product offers much benefit to MVC owners other than additional volume and the same could be said in reverse.  As for a combined program, we don't have any real information to make judgements on.  Personally I feel that the higher level MVC owners who are qualified will come out ahead compared to the masses but we'll see.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 18, 2020)

Dean said:


> As noted, cheaper exchanges "internally" and preference for exchanges.  And the reverse is true for MVC owners as well.  Personally I don't feel the Vistana product offers much benefit to MVC owners other than additional volume and the same could be said in reverse.  As for a combined program, we don't have any real information to make judgements on.  Personally I feel that the higher level MVC owners who are qualified will come out ahead compared to the masses but we'll see.


Isn't it true in many businesses though that the best 20% off your customers usually account for most of your revenue? Wouldn't the same be true with Marriott Vacation Club? Offering up "free" access to those top 20% and charging the rest to get it would seem to be counter intuitive. Those top 20% are more likely to spend more money, aren't they? Where those middle of the pack people like me are less likely to care all that much to fork out tens of thousands of dollars for a buyin.


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## Dean (Dec 18, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Isn't it true in many businesses though that the best 20% off your customers usually account for most of your revenue? Wouldn't the same be true with Marriott Vacation Club? Offering up "free" access to those top 20% and charging the rest to get it would seem to be counter intuitive. Those top 20% are more likely to spend more money, aren't they? Where those middle of the pack people like me are less likely to care all that much to fork out tens of thousands of dollars for a buyin.


I don't think that applies well in this situation.  In my mind we're talking about Presidential and Chairman's Club with MVC or possibly only Chairman's club to have an inside track.  And it might be that Presidential goes to 15K and Chairman's Club to 20K or even 25K or possibly a new level at 25K.  Then the angle is to sell everyone else on moving up for access.  I hear what you're saying but the volume is elsewhere and if you make it a challenge to get the top levels to buy in the program is likely doomed from the start because it's almost impossible for everyone else to see themselves qualifying.  But I could see a guy in for everyone that was relatively minimal for those levels and more for the rest.  Certainly the devil's in the details.  Anyway that's my expectation at this point, might be totally off, we'll see eventually.


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## Steve A (Dec 18, 2020)

Using II, I traded at no cost into the Sheraton TS at Steamboat Springs for next August with  a Marriott week. I‘m in the MVC. Is that unusual or is it standard?


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## dioxide45 (Dec 18, 2020)

Steve A said:


> Using II, I traded at no cost into the Sheraton TS at Steamboat Springs for next August with  a Marriott week. I‘m in the MVC. Is that unusual or is it standard?


That is the new standard for enrolled Marriott weeks. Since enrolled weeks have no exchange fee, you also now don't pay an exchange fee when trading into Vistana properties.


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## GregT (Dec 19, 2020)

It's probably worth adding one more cautionary comment.   I own Worldmark, which is owned by Wyndham.  I kept waiting for an overlay/integrated product between the two systems because it is a logical evolution.  When it finally came, the points requirements were excessive making it basically unuseable.   The analogy would be 3,250 points for a 2BR at Marriott Shadow Ridge, but 4,000 points for a 2BR at Westin Desert Willow -- both in the same city very close to one another.   On the reverse side, 81,000 StarOptions for a 1BR at Westin Desert Willow via Vistana, but 90,000 StarOptions for a 1BR at Marriott Shadow Ridge.    The exchange ratio just doesn't make sense in Worldmark and we may see the same here.

It will be best for us if there is a clear exchange ratio that is the same whether going from StarOptions to DC Points, or the other way.  I think somewhere we have speculated on 30:1, so that 81,000 StarOptions (standard for the best Platinum 1BR properties) is worth 2,700 DC Points, and 148,100 StarOptions (standard for the best Platinum 2BR properties) is worth 4,900 DC Points.    That will be the easiest way to integrate it (IMO) and what will be most interesting will be if they allow resale units (many of whom have lost their ability to convert to StarOptions when they were sold in secondary market) to enroll, just as we did in 2010 with our resale units.   

I don't know which of the Starwood properties will be attractive to Marriott DC point users.  Cancun is clearly a new destination, as is Nassau.  St. John is a high profile destination in Starwood, but we already have two properties on St. Thomas so it's not as "new" a destination.   I love Westin Princeville but that's just a different part of the same island and we have three Kauai properties.

It's interesting to contemplate and I think the program will be structured in manner to try to entice Vistana owners to buy DC Points, so the exchange ratio might be lower than 30:1, and perhaps they won't offer automatic enrollment without the purchase of DC Points (I'm assuming DC Points will be the common currency).   

We will see and will be interesting to follow...

Best,

Greg


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## jont (Dec 19, 2020)

Starwood does not have many destinations I would be interested in other that Cancun. Hyatt, on the other hand, has lot of attractive locations as far as I'm concerned. I believe it will be much harder for Marriott owner to book Hyatt locations due to their smaller resort size and limited locations. But I can always hope for the best.


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## jwalk03 (Dec 19, 2020)

jont said:


> Starwood does not have many destinations I would be interested in other that Cancun. Hyatt, on the other hand, has lot of attractive locations as far as I'm concerned. I believe it will be much harder for Marriott owner to book Hyatt locations due to their smaller resort size and limited locations. But I can always hope for the best.



I agree Hyatt has more destinations that compliment the existing Marriott portfolio.  Key West, Puerto Rico, Aspen, San Antonio, Bonita Springs, Siesta Key, Breckenridge are all VERY appealing!  But I agree that there is no way Hyatt is ever going to be truly intergrated and Marriott is not going to invest to expand a competing timeshare brand.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 19, 2020)

jwalk03 said:


> I agree Hyatt has more destinations that compliment the existing Marriott portfolio.  Key West, Puerto Rico, Aspen, San Antonio, Bonita Springs, Siesta Key, Breckenridge are all VERY appealing!  But I agree that there is no way Hyatt is ever going to be truly intergrated and Marriott is not going to invest to expand a competing timeshare brand.



If you read my summary of John Geller's presentation above, you will read that Marriott Vacations Worldwide does have keen interest in expanding the Hyatt timeshare brand. While they clearly stated that they will not/cannot integrate Hyatt into the upcoming combined Marriott/Westin/Sheraton product, Geller was very clear they see Hyatt as a very attractive expansion opportunity. For Marriott Vacations Worldwide, Hyatt is *not* a competing brand; they license that brand from Hyatt in the same way they license Marriott/Westin/Sheraton from Marriott International - they pay a licensing fee to use the brand. If they can sell a $30,000 Hyatt ownership interest, that adds the same thing to their bottom line as selling a $30,000 Marriott timeshare interest. Since Hyatt is a smaller network and has more gaps in their locations, since they can't combine that product with Marriott/Westin/Sheraton, they see it as a ripe expansion opportunity to make that product more marketable and to add locations for that base of owners/prospects.

Here are his exact words:

_"Hyatt is its own separate platform, and we've got sixteen resorts in Hyatt today. We see that as a huge opportunity over time to really grow the Hyatt brand. We were getting to that - we had to get a consent from Hyatt on the change of control - and we had just kinda got through that pre-COVID, and then COVID hit, so now we are excited when we get out of COVID to start getting after our Hyatt growth plans. So, it's a much smaller platform today, but the ability to grow that hopefully faster over time is a great opportunity." _


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## jwalk03 (Dec 19, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> If you read my summary of John Geller's presentation above, you will read that Marriott Vacations Worldwide does have keen interest in expanding the Hyatt timeshare brand. While they clearly stated that they will not/cannot integrate Hyatt into the upcoming combined Marriott/Westin/Sheraton product, Geller was very clear they see Hyatt as a very attractive expansion opportunity. For Marriott Vacations Worldwide, Hyatt is *not* a competing brand; they license that brand from Hyatt in the same way they license Marriott/Westin/Sheraton from Marriott International - they pay a licensing fee to use the brand. If they can sell a $30,000 Hyatt ownership interest, that adds the same thing to their bottom line as selling a $30,000 Marriott timeshare interest. Since Hyatt is a smaller network and has more gaps in their locations, since they can't combine that product with Marriott/Westin/Sheraton, they see it as a ripe expansion opportunity to make that product more marketable and to add locations for that base of owners/prospects.
> 
> Here are his exact words:
> 
> _"Hyatt is its own separate platform, and we've got sixteen resorts in Hyatt today. We see that as a huge opportunity over time to really grow the Hyatt brand. We were getting to that - we had to get a consent from Hyatt on the change of control - and we had just kinda got through that pre-COVID, and then COVID hit, so now we are excited when we get out of COVID to start getting after our Hyatt growth plans. So, it's a much smaller platform today, but the ability to grow that hopefully faster over time is a great opportunity." _



I hope thats the case, but I am skeptical.  I think it would be far more likely for them to unload Hyatt if they could find a buyer.  It just adds complexity and cost and there is no way they will ever be able to integrate it.  Also I would think Marriott would be inclined to try and force their hand on which brand(s) to expand and focus on, especially once it comes time to re-negotiate on those tradmark licesnes.


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## controller1 (Dec 19, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> . . .
> 
> They have another $90 - $140 million of property to be disposed of. Some of this property is operating hotels that came with the ILG acquisition. He said they may convert some of that to timeshare, but that they do not want to be a long term owner of operating hotels. They will find a third party that wants to own the hotels and sell to them. He said they were in "first rate locations" and specifically mentioned Kauai and Puerto Vallarta.



The ILG acquisition brought with it three operating hotels: The Sheraton Kauai, The Westin Resort & Spa - Cancun and The Westin Resort & Spa - Puerto Vallarta.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 19, 2020)

jwalk03 said:


> I hope thats the case, but I am skeptical.  I think it would be far more likely for them to unload Hyatt if they could find a buyer.  It just adds complexity and cost and there is no way they will ever be able to integrate it.  Also I would think Marriott would be inclined to try and force their hand on which brand(s) to expand and focus on, especially once it comes time to re-negotiate on those tradmark licesnes.



I doubt Marriott International really cares how much MVW expands Marriott vs. Hyatt, since that doesn't really impact MI's bottom line. Marriott International spun off their timeshare operations for a reason (they didn't want to be in that business any more), and now, as long as Marriott Vacations Worldwide pays their licensing fees and the resorts with the Marriott signs are maintained to brand standards, I expect MI is fine with that.

Also, given that the person that made those statements was the MVW CFO, John Geller, and it was at an investor conference, they have to be very careful what they say so as not to mislead the investment community. Certainly everything is for sale at a price, and corporate strategies can change over time, but I doubt MVW would have gone to the trouble to negotiate the new agreements with Hyatt, and Geller would not have made the statements he did at that conference, if there was any current thinking that Hyatt is not a strategic asset that they hope to grow and enhance. The time to sell it would have been right after the completion of the ILG acquisition, just as they began selling off the non-strategic real estate assets they acquired from ILG.

Also, expanding Hyatt does not mean they won't also invest in new Marriott/Westin/Sheraton locations. His clear point was because Hyatt is smaller, there are more gaps in their network, so their network has more room for growth. Marriott/Westin/Sheraton already have most of the high demand locations covered, so expansion opportunities there will likely be more limited. I think that's why much of the MVC growth in the last several years has been the Pulse brand in the cities - they have most of the major beach/golf/ski resort areas covered, and until those areas need more unit capacity, expansion opportunities are more limited with their legacy brands.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 19, 2020)

controller1 said:


> The ILG acquisition brought with it three operating hotels: The Sheraton Kauai, The Westin Resort & Spa - Cancun and The Westin Resort & Spa - Puerto Vallarta.



Yeah, he didn't mention Cancun, so that makes me think their long term goal may be to convert that to 100% timeshare. Sounds like they don't have plans to convert all of Kauai and Puerto Vallarta to timeshare, so may seek to sell the hotel portions to a third party. If they would ultimately decide not to convert all of Cancun to ownership, then that hotel portion would likely be sold as well.


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## jwalk03 (Dec 19, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> Yeah, he didn't mention Cancun, so that makes me think their long term goal may be to convert that to 100% timeshare. Sounds like they don't have plans to convert all of Kauai and Puerto Vallarta to timeshare, so may seek to sell the hotel portions to a third party. If they would ultimately decide not to convert all of Cancun to ownership, then that hotel portion would likely be sold as well.



I saw in the number of villas thread that their filing from 2018 mentioned plans to convert the PV Hotel to timeshare units.  I wonder if they are still planning to do that?  or if they will just try to sell the whole thing off instead?


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## JIMinNC (Dec 19, 2020)

jwalk03 said:


> I saw in the number of villas thread that their filing from 2018 mentioned plans to convert the PV Hotel to timeshare units.  I wonder if they are still planning to do that?  or if they will just try to sell the whole thing off instead?



Yeah, the 2018 filing does say they have 280 hotel units in Puerto Vallarta, but it footnotes that those units "May potentially be converted into 139 vacation ownership units." Given that he specifically mentioned Puerto Vallarta as one of the hotel properties they may sell, it would seem to hint that maybe they are no longer going to convert the whole property to timeshare or maybe none of it. I do seem to recall earlier in his presentation he did mention Puerto Vallarta as one of the Mexico locations that the new "consolidated product" will bring to the table, so that would seem to contradict that they were planning to sell the whole hotel. Maybe they will structure a deal where they convert part of the hotel to timeshare and then sell the remaining hotel portion to a third party with some sort of long term affiliation agreement to ensure the hotel portion stays Westin-branded. That's just speculation on my part, though.


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## controller1 (Dec 19, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> Maybe they will structure a deal where they convert part of the hotel to timeshare and then sell the remaining hotel portion to a third party with some sort of long term affiliation agreement to ensure the hotel portion stays Westin-branded. That's just speculation on my part, though.



The problem with that is risk to having something happen like the current situation with Westin Mission Hills where the ownership and management group has changed and even though the hotel remains a Westin the owners/guests of the Westin Villas are no longer able to take a shuttle to the property or walk along the path to the hotel. If one wishes to use any of the hotel's amenities one must purchase a wristband.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 19, 2020)

controller1 said:


> The problem with that is risk to having something happen like the current situation with Westin Mission Hills where the ownership and management group has changed and even though the hotel remains a Westin the owners/guests of the Westin Villas are no longer able to take a shuttle to the property or walk along the path to the hotel. If one wishes to use any of the hotel's amenities one must purchase a wristband.


I assume they could address such a situation with a contract of sale that requires timeshare owners to retain amenity access. I also assume, unlike the Mission Hills villas, which are essentially on a separate property (with its own amenities) from the actual hotel, the Puerto Vallarta situation is different in that the current hotel is a single property. In the PV case, the amenities would likely truly be shared if the hotel was split into a combo hotel/timeshare, so some sort of contractual guarantee of amenity access would seem to be a more critical element of any sale and ongoing management arrangement there.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 19, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> I assume they could address such a situation with a contract of sale that requires timeshare owners to retain amenity access. I also assume, unlike the Mission Hills villas, which are essentially on a separate property (with its own amenities) from the actual hotel, the Puerto Vallarta situation is different in that the current hotel is a single property. In the PV case, the amenities would likely truly be shared if the hotel was split into a combo hotel/timeshare, so some sort of contractual guarantee of amenity access would seem to be a more critical element of any sale and ongoing management arrangement there.


I am not sure this is always the case. There is a situation of Hyatt Hacienda Del Mar timeshare owners losing out on amenities in the shared property. So simply being co-located may not mean much unless there is also co-ownership. Any contract can be broken given the right circumstances.








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## Dean (Dec 20, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure this is always the case. There is a situation of Hyatt Hacienda Del Mar timeshare owners losing out on amenities in the shared property. So simply being co-located may not mean much unless there is also co-ownership. Any contract can be broken given the right circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


IMO this should be contracted up front so this doesn't happen down the line.  That doesn't help the properties already in that situation but would for those going forward.


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## bobpark56 (Dec 21, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> That is the new standard for enrolled Marriott weeks. Since enrolled weeks have no exchange fee, you also now don't pay an exchange fee when trading into Vistana properties.


Interesting. So how do MVCI points values match up with StarOptions? We have both. If we want to trade from MVCI to Vistana (or vice versa), just how does this work?


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## JIMinNC (Dec 21, 2020)

bobpark56 said:


> Interesting. So how do MVCI points values match up with StarOptions? We have both. If we want to trade from MVCI to Vistana (or vice versa), just how does this work?



You can't trade between MVC and Vistana with points yet. All that has been implemented so far is the week-for-week trading within Interval International that has always been possible, just now with no trade fee for MVC to Vistana or vice versa.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 21, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> You can't trade between MVC and Vistana with points yet. All that has been implemented so far is the week-for-week trading within Interval International that has always been possible, just now with no trade fee for MVC to Vistana or vice versa.


To clarify, the vice versa has a discounted exchange fee ($154).


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## JIMinNC (Dec 21, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> To clarify, the vice versa has a discounted exchange fee ($154).



Do Vistana-to-Vistana trades cost $154 as well? If that is the case, then I guess it makes sense to charge the same for a Marriott trade. I assumed Vistana-to-Vistana trades were free like in MVC.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 21, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> Do Vistana-to-Vistana trades cost $154 as well? If that is the case, then I guess it makes sense to charge the same for a Marriott trade. I assumed Vistana-to-Vistana trades were free like in MVC.


Yes, $154 fee for Vistana to Marriott. I beleive the discount is $55 for Vistana to Vistana/Marriott exchanges.


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## GregT (Jan 17, 2021)

All,

I don’t have any actionable information here, but posting this speculation to see if this is consistent with what others are hearing.

I am at WKORV now and was walking on the beach walk north and south and walked past my beloved MOC (which remains my preferred Maui spot). There was a rep at the stand and I stopped to ask if there was any news on an integrated product.

He confirmed what we’ve heard (was supposed to be out this year/delayed because of the virus/Marriott owners will be able to book Starwood and vice versa - but not Hyatt).

But the thing he said that was most interesting to me was that Westin was considered a modestly superior product to Marriott - and Sheraton is considered an inferior product to Marriott.

I’ve not stayed in enough Westin properties to know if this is accurate but I believe Westin Kaanapali 2BR is comparable to Lahaina Villas 2BR and Lahaina Villas 3BR is superior to Nanea. Westin 2BR is likely considered superior to MOC.

I will be very curious to see if Westin owners are given attractive election values to entice them to participate (the opposite of skimming)  whereas Sheraton owners might get a reduced election value if they want to play.

Interesting - a fair number of Westin owners have the opportunity to utilize StarOptions and may not feel the need to elect for points, so Marriott has that competing interest as well.

Has anyone else heard this view of relative resort quality and do you agree with it?

Best,

Greg


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## Dean (Jan 17, 2021)

GregT said:


> Has anyone else heard this view of relative resort quality and do you agree with it?


That is consistent with my take if you take MVC as a whole.  I'd put Westin as minimally superior overall but equal if you take the properties I tend to visit.  I would look at the Vistana options I've seen as a step below, some 2 steps.


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## MICROZE (Jan 17, 2021)

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> I don’t have any actionable information here, but posting this speculation to see if this is consistent with what others are hearing.
> 
> ...


In aggregate [not comparing individual properties] I agree about quality in that order.

Westin
Marriott
Sheraton
Its always possible to find a specific property that is slightly better [e.g. Marriott Lahaina V Westin Los Cabos]. 
Based on my experience across all 3 brands over the last 2 decades, in general I agree with the comment.


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## needvaca (Jan 17, 2021)

MICROZE said:


> In aggregate [not comparing individual properties] I agree about quality in that order.
> 
> Westin
> Marriott
> ...


I’m a Vistana owner (Westin and Sheraton) and I agree with this ranking. I’ve stayed in 6 MVC resorts and they are great, but not quite as lux as the Westins, especially the kitchens and bathrooms. But I love them all and the different locations, and I bought my first Marriott last year.  
I don’t mind if there’s never any overlap, especially if they expect me to pay for it. I just want to keep going to my home resorts, use my Staroptions and occasionally trade in II


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## mjm1 (Jan 17, 2021)

Thanks for the update Greg. I agree that it depends on the resort and we prefer MOC Lahaina/Napili to the Westin Maui resorts. I can see where some of the Westin resorts are marginally higher quality than Marriott's. Westin Riverfront over the Marriott resorts in the Vail and surrounding area, WKV over the Marriott in Phoenix come to mind.

Enjoy your time in Maui. We wish we were there too!

Best regards.

Mike


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## vistana101 (Jan 17, 2021)

Interesting point...I have always heard that MVC positions Sheraton lower than Marriott Vacation Clubs - certainly the case for many resorts, but not all. Sheraton Vistana Villages is quite comparable to most of the other Marriott Orlando resorts, like Grande Vista, in my opinion. Of course, Lakeshore Reserve is a significant step above, but I think that resort is a step above most.   If I had a choice between a Sheraton/Westin/Marriott in most places, I'd likely choose a Westin first (thinking of the large difference in quality between the Westin and Sheraton resorts in Arizona, for example). 

One observation that I think is an indication of changes to come: Marriott assigns different point values to resorts in the same locations (i.e. Lakeshore Reserve vs. Grande Vista vs. Harbour Lake all have different point values in Orlando, for example), whereas Starwood/Vistana has rarely done that. Both Sheratons in Orlando require the same amount of points/options, and both the Sheraton and Westin timeshares in Arizona require the same amount of points/options. Not sure that will fly in a combined program.


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## CPNY (Jan 21, 2021)

At my vistana update yesterday I was told they know exactly what’s coming and when it’s coming, 1/2022. It will be an automatic conversion at the time of booking. MVC will use DP’s and if a vistana owner wants to book a Marriott their star options would be converted at 32:1 SO to DP’s. 

The rep mentioned that the vistana unit had to be a retro unit (enrolled) in order to use as DP’s. The way to retro a resale with vistana is to spent $10,000 minimum. He said that an ownership that is eligible to be converted to bonvoy points would be able to be used to convert to DP’s for 13 mo booking. That’s how they would tell who is eligible on the vistana side. 

He was talking in circles. Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 months, yet MVC and Sheraton flex owners will be able to book a Westin at 13mo. I asked “if MVC and SF can book a Westin at 13 mo using DP’s how the heck do Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 mo”? A lot of wrong information came out of his lips, and i was able to call him out on some crafty spin, but at least he didn’t come at me with anything to buy.


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## vol_90 (Jan 21, 2021)

CPNY said:


> At my vistana update yesterday I was told they know exactly what’s coming and when it’s coming, 1/2022. It will be an automatic conversion at the time of booking. MVC will use DP’s and if a vistana owner wants to book a Marriott their star options would be converted at 32:1 SO to DP’s.
> 
> The rep mentioned that the vistana unit had to be a retro unit (enrolled) in order to use as DP’s. The way to retro a resale with vistana is to spent $10,000 minimum. He said that an ownership that is eligible to be converted to bonvoy points would be able to be used to convert to DP’s for 13 mo booking. That’s how they would tell who is eligible on the vistana side.
> 
> He was talking in circles. Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 months, yet MVC and Sheraton flex owners will be able to book a Westin at 13mo. I asked “if MVC and SF can book a Westin at 13 mo using DP’s how the heck do Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 mo”? A lot of wrong information came out of his lips, and i was able to call him out on some crafty spin, but at least he didn’t come at me with anything to buy.


Interesting as always and appreciate the update.  I was told on Jan. 4th at a Marriott Grand Chateau update that there will be 2 separate trusts.  Marriott points owners will not have direct access to Vistana properties and Vistana points owners will not have direct access to Marriott properties.

I was surprised but did not continue down this conversation piece in an effort to get out in the most efficient manner.  What I did take this to mean is that there may be a product to bridge both systems (buy X points that allows access to both sets of properties with all existing points.) and if not we would still need to use Interval.

I am hoping this is not correct and my Marriott points can access Vistana properties in 2022.

All speculation for now.


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## shorep (Jan 21, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> That is the $1,000,000 question.


I notice, with some alarm, that it used to be the $64,000 question, it now has risen to the $1,000,000 questions, is this the effect that inflated timeshare prices are having on the economic front or is it just down to Vistana&Vidante sales tactics at presentations????


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## dougp26364 (Jan 21, 2021)

CPNY said:


> At my vistana update yesterday I was told they know exactly what’s coming and when it’s coming, 1/2022. It will be an automatic conversion at the time of booking. MVC will use DP’s and if a vistana owner wants to book a Marriott their star options would be converted at 32:1 SO to DP’s.
> 
> The rep mentioned that the vistana unit had to be a retro unit (enrolled) in order to use as DP’s. The way to retro a resale with vistana is to spent $10,000 minimum. He said that an ownership that is eligible to be converted to bonvoy points would be able to be used to convert to DP’s for 13 mo booking. That’s how they would tell who is eligible on the vistana side.
> 
> He was talking in circles. Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 months, yet MVC and Sheraton flex owners will be able to book a Westin at 13mo. I asked “if MVC and SF can book a Westin at 13 mo using DP’s how the heck do Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 mo”? A lot of wrong information came out of his lips, and i was able to call him out on some crafty spin, but at least he didn’t come at me with anything to buy.





vol_90 said:


> Interesting as always and appreciate the update.  I was told on Jan. 4th at a Marriott Grand Chateau update that there will be 2 separate trusts.  Marriott points owners will not have direct access to Vistana properties and Vistana points owners will not have direct access to Marriott properties.
> 
> I was surprised but did not continue down this conversation piece in an effort to get out in the most efficient manner.  What I did take this to mean is that there may be a product to bridge both systems (buy X points that allows access to both sets of properties with all existing points.) and if not we would still need to use Interval.
> 
> ...



I have heard so many different stories from so many different salesmen that there is one thing I know for certain. The sales staff doesn’t have any more of a clue than anyone on TUG. 

To be honest, it’s taken MVC so long without any discernible progress that it no longer matters to me what they do or don’t do.


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## jmhpsu93 (Jan 21, 2021)

dougp26364 said:


> I have heard so many different stories from so many different salesmen that there is one thing I know for certain. The sales staff doesn’t have any more of a clue than anyone on TUG.
> 
> To be honest, it’s taken MVC so long without any discernible progress that it no longer matters to me what they do or don’t do.


And because VAC is a publicly traded company they'll likely announce it at an investors' call when it's real.  Sales people are usually the last to know.  LOL


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## Dean (Jan 21, 2021)

dougp26364 said:


> I have heard so many different stories from so many different salesmen that there is one thing I know for certain. The sales staff doesn’t have any more of a clue than anyone on TUG.
> 
> To be honest, it’s taken MVC so long without any discernible progress that it no longer matters to me what they do or don’t do.


While the product may change over time with all that's going on and the delay, I have it on good authority that some of the sales staff have been to training already (pre-Covid) for the new product.


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## GregT (Jan 21, 2021)

CPNY said:


> At my vistana update yesterday I was told they know exactly what’s coming and when it’s coming, 1/2022. It will be an automatic conversion at the time of booking. MVC will use DP’s and if a vistana owner wants to book a Marriott their star options would be converted at 32:1 SO to DP’s.
> 
> The rep mentioned that the vistana unit had to be a retro unit (enrolled) in order to use as DP’s. The way to retro a resale with vistana is to spent $10,000 minimum. He said that an ownership that is eligible to be converted to bonvoy points would be able to be used to convert to DP’s for 13 mo booking. That’s how they would tell who is eligible on the vistana side.
> 
> He was talking in circles. Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 months, yet MVC and Sheraton flex owners will be able to book a Westin at 13mo. I asked “if MVC and SF can book a Westin at 13 mo using DP’s how the heck do Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 mo”? A lot of wrong information came out of his lips, and i was able to call him out on some crafty spin, but at least he didn’t come at me with anything to buy.



I saw this also on the Starwood board.   I do find the 32:1 ratio to be interesting -- I had earlier speculated on a 27:1 ratio but if it stays I think that will be a disincentive to Vistana owners to participate.  A 2BR OF owner at WKORV, which is supposed to be modestly nicer than Marriott, doesn't even get enough DC Points to book into Maui OF (either new or old) and doesn't have enough to get a 2BR OV at Kauai or Oahu.  They barely have enough to get into Ritz STT or Aruba OF units.   I have always felt that Marriott skimmed its owners because they needed us to buy more points (which we did) to be able to use the system.  A 32:1 does the same thing to Starwood owners and I think they are better off to stay in their existing point system (StarOptions).

From a purely Marriott owner perspective, getting 32 StarOptions for our 1 DC Points is a great exchange rate, and means we could go to Westin Princeville for 4,600 points.  That's a great point value -- better than Waiohai or Kauai Lagoons, and is surprising to me.  Similar for St. John, and aligns St. John more like Frenchman's Cove than Ritz.  I always felt Frenchman's Cove was under-valued in the Marriott DC and Westin St. John may be as well.  Very odd.

The final interesting thing is that, as speculated, only direct purchasers will be able to benefit from the overlay -- and there is a whole population of owners who have resale weeks that could really help to lubricate the exchange system.   If only direct purchasers can participate, then they already have StarOptions and I think this will be a non-event.   From a Marriott owner perspective, 32:1 benefits us, but I would rather see a more balanced exchange rate that gives both owners a desire to participate.   We will see.

Interesting speculation of course.

Best,

Greg


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## CPNY (Jan 21, 2021)

GregT said:


> I saw this also on the Starwood board.   I do find the 32:1 ratio to be interesting -- I had earlier speculated on a 27:1 ratio but if it stays I think that will be a disincentive to Vistana owners to participate.  A 2BR OF owner at WKORV, which is supposed to be modestly nicer than Marriott, doesn't even get enough DC Points to book into Maui OF (either new or old) and doesn't have enough to get a 2BR OV at Kauai or Oahu.  They barely have enough to get into Ritz STT or Aruba OF units.   I have always felt that Marriott skimmed its owners because they needed us to buy more points (which we did) to be able to use the system.  A 32:1 does the same thing to Starwood owners and I think they are better off to stay in their existing point system (StarOptions).
> 
> From a purely Marriott owner perspective, getting 32 StarOptions for our 1 DC Points is a great exchange rate, and means we could go to Westin Princeville for 4,600 points.  That's a great point value -- better than Waiohai or Kauai Lagoons, and is surprising to me.  Similar for St. John, and aligns St. John more like Frenchman's Cove than Ritz.  I always felt Frenchman's Cove was under-valued in the Marriott DC and Westin St. John may be as well.  Very odd.
> 
> ...



Can they change the VSN SO chart all together?


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## CPNY (Jan 21, 2021)

vol_90 said:


> Interesting as always and appreciate the update.  I was told on Jan. 4th at a Marriott Grand Chateau update that there will be 2 separate trusts.  Marriott points owners will not have direct access to Vistana properties and Vistana points owners will not have direct access to Marriott properties.
> 
> I was surprised but did not continue down this conversation piece in an effort to get out in the most efficient manner.  What I did take this to mean is that there may be a product to bridge both systems (buy X points that allows access to both sets of properties with all existing points.) and if not we would still need to use Interval.
> 
> ...


One thing the rep said is that the VSN isn’t going anywhere. As long as I have what I have now with the limited availability as it is I’ll be fine. I’ll use II for Marriott stays in Orlando. That’s really the only place I’d stay at a Marriott (I don’t travel other places in the US). Maybe a unit at beach place towers could be fun


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## rthib (Jan 21, 2021)

GregT said:


> The final interesting thing is that, as speculated, only direct purchasers will be able to benefit from the overlay -- and there is a whole population of owners who have resale weeks that could really help to lubricate the exchange system.   If only direct purchasers can participate, then they already have StarOptions and I think this will be a non-event.


Curious about this part. Since you can buy resale certain properties that include StarOptions wondering how those will work. Would think that MVCI would needs those points in the trust in order to make things work.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jan 21, 2021)

So they are allegedly offering the privilege of 32:1 to DP points for $10,000+ investment and only offering this to non-resale. We don't trade our WKORV OF and would likely rent it out for profit or infrequently use Staroptions if we did not use.  IMHO...even if we were not resale it sounds like a non-starter. Maybe some traders or IV owners would find value in this but using DPs in the expectation you could trade into an OF unit would be like finding 2 bdrm Disney in RCI - a unicorn.


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## CPNY (Jan 21, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> So they are allegedly offering the privilege of 32:1 to DP points for $10,000+ investment and only offering this to non-resale. We don't trade our WKORV OF and would likely rent it out for profit or infrequently use Staroptions if we did not use.  IMHO...even if we were not resale it sounds like a non-starter. Maybe some traders or IV owners would find value in this but using DPs in the expectation you could trade into an OF unit would be like finding 2 bdrm Disney in RCI - a unicorn.


It’s 32:1 for developer purchases. If you retro a resale that would be eligible according to the rep. Basically the week you have needs to have the ability to convert to bonvoy points to be eligible. Only developer purchases resales that have been retro back into the program would be eligible. Of course this came from a sales guy who though banked SO were good at 6 months not 8 so.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jan 21, 2021)

I thought the difference between resale and developer was that developer sale can convert to Bonvoy and resale cannot. Am I missing a third category?

I wonder how many OF MOC Towers have enrolled in DPs and use them. I would imagine those are a unicorn as well unless MVC exercised ROFR and placed them into the trust. Are they a unicorn during peak season? I would imagine that most MOC owners would use or rent rather that use DP points to trade unless they were in a pinch.


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## JIMinNC (Jan 21, 2021)

All the speculation based on sales spin is fun, but I go back to the only information we have that can be said to be actual facts - what Marriott Vacations Worldwide has said in their presentations to the investor community:

1) They plan to introduce a "Common Points Currency" for all brands first
2) They will eventually move to selling a "Common Points Product" across all of their brands

Plans can and do change, but as recently as December 2020, they were still talking about moving in this direction by 2022. See Post #7 in this thread.


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## MICROZE (Jan 21, 2021)

JIMinNC said:


> All the speculation based on sales spin is fun, but I go back to the only information we have that can be said to be actual facts - what Marriott Vacations Worldwide has said in their presentations to the investor community:
> 
> 1) They plan to introduce a "Common Points Currency" for all brands first
> 2) They will eventually move to selling a "Common Points Product" across all of their brands
> ...


This [Common-Currency] is why Marriott has been selling *Destination-Points* exclusively.
This is also why Vistana recently switched to selling *Flex* exclusively.

Having points systems [irrespective of the exchange rate] makes it easier to integrate.

As for the exchange ratio value of *32::1* it depends on what you own.

If you own a Low-MF week [e.g. WLR or WKV] that accrues 148100-SO you will find it [4628-DCP] excellent value for the $1500+ in MF.
If you own a High-MF week [e.g. WSJ or WKORVN] that accrues 148100 you will find it [4628-DCP] bad value for the $2500+ in MF.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 21, 2021)

MICROZE said:


> This is also why Vistana recently switched to selling *Flex* exclusively.


But VIstana still doesn't have a common currency. They have Westin Flex, Aventuras, Sheraton Flex. multiple flex products at the WSJ and even Nanea. Even Nanea has separate flex products for Oceanfront Inventory and Resort View. IMO, Vistana really bungled up their product


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## JIMinNC (Jan 21, 2021)

MICROZE said:


> This [Common-Currency] is why Marriott has been selling *Destination-Points* exclusively.
> This is also why Vistana recently switched to selling *Flex* exclusively.



But...Marriott has been selling Destinations Points exclusively now for over 10 years, long before the acquisition of ILG/Vistana. Vistana also began selling their various Flex Trust products exclusively years before the merger as well. Those products - DPs and the various Flex-type programs - are still separate currencies that they will have to rationalize/convert/integrate. How that consolidation will be structured is what we don't know, and what is being debated in this thread.


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## JIMinNC (Jan 21, 2021)

MICROZE said:


> As for the exchange ratio value of *32::1* it depends on what you own.
> 
> If you own a Low-MF week [e.g. WLR or WKV] that accrues 148100-SO you will find it [4628-DCP] excellent value for the $1500+ in MF.
> If you own a High-MF week [e.g. WSJ or WKORVN] that accrues 148100 you will find it [4628-DCP] bad value for the $2500+ in MF.



Same as with Destination Points today - Trust DPs have a maintenance fee/point of $0.61. High point value "enrolled" weeks like summer Hilton Head or Ocean Front 2BR Maui can have cost per DP in the $0.30/pt to $0.50/pt range, and lower point value off-season weeks with lower DP allocations might have a per point annual fee cost of over $0.80/pt.


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## controller1 (Jan 21, 2021)

CPNY said:


> Can they change the VSN SO chart all together?



I believe they can.  Several years ago Vistana changed the chart to give more StarOptions to owners of OceanFront at WKORV and WKORVN and thus require more StarOptions to rent when that view is available.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jan 21, 2021)

MICROZE said:


> This [Common-Currency] is why Marriott has been selling *Destination-Points* exclusively.
> This is also why Vistana recently switched to selling *Flex* exclusively.
> 
> Having points systems [irrespective of the exchange rate] makes it easier to integrate.
> ...



WKORVN OF has 176000 points so at 32:1 it would be 5500 DP points for $2700 in MF or .49 per DP point. What can you rent in MVC with 5500 points?


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## Ken555 (Jan 21, 2021)

controller1 said:


> I believe they can.  Several years ago Vistana changed the chart to give more StarOptions to owners of OceanFront at WKORV and WKORVN and thus require more StarOptions to rent when that view is available.



And let's not forget they changed Lagunamar SOs because too many people wouldn't buy (initially the 2BD was not 148k). They can definitely change SO valuation, or even eliminate the program altogether though that's not going to happen (if they did, there would be little reason for the "Club" which is why we pay our separate annual membership fee).


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## mlilley221 (Feb 28, 2021)

I just finished owner update 2/23 at Westin Lagunamar:  

I was told as my current contracts allow access to the properties in the vistana network (with the mandatory SO's I bought resale), they WOULD NOT have access to the MVC network.  Basically, let me know that those options are not considered "in the network" which I find interesting as mandatory SO's have almost all the benefits (except elite) so I would only maintain the access to the resorts I already have in vistana and nothing more, same with SO's for resort stays etc, that those are all in the contracts and cannot change.  Went on how Marriot is VERY controlling of the resale market and doesn't offer owners of resale any perks etc.

But of course, if I purchase an additional 81,000 SO's (EOY) for $15k and a MF of $508 a year I would be able to bring 2 of my 6 contracts into "the network" I asked if I purchased this would they allow me to bring ALL my ownership into "the network" they said they could not for every $10k they could bring in 2 contracts.  So I had them present me what it would take to bring everything into the network.  161k SO's EY for $33k then I could bring everything in.  I passed but was trying to see what they were willing to do with their "covid special" pricing.  basically same as what I had seen before.

It was a successful OU as I got in and out in less than 45 min for my $125


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## dioxide45 (Feb 28, 2021)

This is very possible, but never buy on a verbal promise. Unless any of this is in writing, I wouldn't count on any of it. Chaces are high that even Aventuras or any of the Flex programs may have to "re-up" in order to get in on the action.

You made the right decision!


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## MICROZE (Feb 28, 2021)

mlilley221 said:


> I just finished owner update 2/23 at Westin Lagunamar:
> 
> I was told as my current contracts allow access to the properties in the vistana network (with the mandatory SO's I bought resale), they WOULD NOT have access to the MVC network.  Basically, let me know that those options are not considered "in the network" which I find interesting as mandatory SO's have almost all the benefits (except elite) so I would only maintain the access to the resorts I already have in vistana and nothing more, same with SO's for resort stays etc, that those are all in the contracts and cannot change.  Went on how Marriot is VERY controlling of the resale market and doesn't offer owners of resale any perks etc.
> 
> ...


This is the same offer we were presented in DEC-2019.

We toured at Westin Los Cabos and were offered the following.
NOTE: The offer is not based on the Star-Options being enrolled. It's based on the #-Contracts.

To enroll 1-Contract purchase *$10K* worth of Aventuras-Flex
To enroll each Additional-Contract purchase an additional *$5K* of Aventuras-Flex
We had 5-EY WKV 2BR-PLATIUM [148100-SO each] resale weeks.
We enrolled 3 resale contracts by purchasing $20K worth of Aventuras-Flex [95700-SO EOY which is not good value considering the Price/SO or MF].
We enrolled 444,300-SO for $20K.

We only enrolled the minimum required to go from 3-STAR To 5-STAR Elite [wife gets Bonvoy Platinum] + we save on a few fees and better Banking-Dates.

If we wanted to enroll the 2 additional resale weeks it would cost us an additional $10K *[$30K to enroll 5 x 148100 Contracts / 740500-SO]*.
In summary for $30K someone could go from No-Status to 5-STAR-Elite.
We did not want to inherit anymore Flex-Options due to the higher MF.


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## mlilley221 (Feb 28, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> This is very possible, but never buy on a verbal promise. Unless any of this is in writing, I wouldn't count on any of it. Chaces are high that even Aventuras or any of the Flex programs may have to "re-up" in order to get in on the action.
> 
> You made the right decision!


Yeah I just don't see the benefits of being elite or bringing contracts into the network to be worth the 5 figure outlay.  everyone has their own reasoning for purchasing or bringing contracts in but for me the current system and program works fine for my needs


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