# Want to buy a Marriott TS: questions



## ksheppard (Jul 29, 2014)

We would like to buy a Marriott TS and would like advice on the best way of going about it.

We are a family of 5 (kids age: 14, 11, 6). We live in Quebec, Canada. We want to use the TS to be able to travel to different areas. We enjoy the Caribbean. We would like to start to go to Europe. We like to have the flexibility to see new places. We could go back to the same place once and a while but not always. We are available to travel during Spring break (the first week of August for us) or during the Summer months. Right now we can manage in a 1 bedroom but soon will require a 2 bedroom. 

Should I be looking at buying a week resale? I have read but it still isn't that clear on how it works if I want to go to another Marriott Vacation Resort. How do I chose the resort to buy into, how do I know about the point value of a week TS and how do I use this point value (is it within the Marriot vacation club or is it II)?. If I buy resale, I understood that I can not exchange into reward points. What can I do with the week if I own at a certain resort but want to travel elsewhere? Is II the only option?

Should I just buy points then? 

What is the most economical way to buy (buying a week and traveling elsewhere, buying points (resale or developper?)

I read that it is a good idea to buy a week or a low amount of points and rent the remainder of what we would need (save on the initial cost along with on maintenance fees). ???

With the way we want to travel,  is buying resale a good idea?  

If someone can help, I would really appreciate it.


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## kds4 (Jul 29, 2014)

You have several options:

Buy Destination Club (DC) points from MVCI (which I would not recommend)
Buy a 'hybrid' package of DC points and a resale week from MVCI (which has benefits that some may find attractive, but still expensive) 
Buy Marriott DC points on the resale market (which is generally the recommended approach for those who want to vacation using a points based Marriott option, despite the recent increase in 'junk' fees aka pure profit for Marriott) 
Buy an actual week via resale to a location you would want to go, potentially every year in case you were unable to trade it through Interval International for another destination. (Great sources of resale weeks include eBay, Redweek, and of course TUG).

We have only been MVCI owners since 2009, so stand by for responses from some of the more 'veteran' owners here on TUG who have many more years of experience maximizing their ownership than we have.

You've already made the best initial choice, and that is to seek out information on TUG. We have learned much here in the past 5 years, mainly from the experiences of other owners. Hopefully, you will too. Good luck.


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## jont (Jul 29, 2014)

Welcome to tug. After reading your post my initial impression is that you are putting a premium on flexibility. If that is the case I would personally consider buying destination points. You could start out with a small package of about 1500 points and rent the rest to meet your varying needs. By doing this you can limit your initial cash outlay and minimize your MF obligations. Whether you buy retail or on the resale market depends on your comfort level. Keep in mind there is no rush, you can take as much time to research you options here on Tug. You may also consider renting a few times to see if a TS is right for you. Good luck with your decision.


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## cman (Jul 29, 2014)

Unless you have a specific resort that you plan to visit for the next few years, renting is probably your best option. You should calculate your total cost (purchase price plus maintenance fees) for the next ten years. Keep in mind that your maintenance fees will increase over the years by at lease 4% per year. 

Compare the cost of purchasing a unit to the cost of renting the same or a comparable unit. Use the TUG classifieds as a guide to determine the rental cost. If you don't have a specific resort that you plan to frequent, I think you'll find that renting is not only more cost effective, it also allows for the flexibility that you're looking for.

Also keep in mind that a timeshare purchase is for all practical purposes, a lifetime commitment. Once you sign the contract, you've committed yourself to servicing a depreciating asset for the rest of your life. If you decide to sell, you'll only be able to recoup a fraction of your investment. This is why you see people giving these things away in this forum.

Again, if you have a specific resort in mind that you plan to frequent over the years then it may make sense to purchase. If on the other hand, you're thinking you'll be visiting several different resorts, renting may be the best way to secure the type of accommodations you're looking for. 

My family has vacationed in Marriott, Hilton and Hyatt properties over the years and with only one exception, have always been able to get the weeks that we wanted. We've also been able to get them for the cost of the maintenance fee or less.

Run the number and the answer will be obvious.


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## ksheppard (Jul 29, 2014)

I will definately do the math however in doing the math this is where I am trying to figure out the best way to buy with Marriott considering my needs. I do not fully understand the ins and the outs of buying a week and trading for another Marriott vacation club. For instance, how do I know the value of that week, how do I trade for another MVC? Do I have to go through II or just through Marriott? Is this possible with buying a week or do I absolutely have to buy points?

We are also owners of Disney and are very satisfied. The reason we are looking into Marriott is as a compliment to Disney. MArriott has more resorts without having to go through II (or with Disney, RCI).


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## Fasttr (Jul 29, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> We are available to travel during Spring break (the first week of August for us)....



I know winters are cold up there and summers are short, but Spring break in August???


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## dioxide45 (Jul 29, 2014)

If you buy a resale week, you can't enroll that week in the DC program. Any time you want to stay at another Marriott property other than your home resort, you have to trade through II. The only exception is if you buy the resale week from MVCI and also buy an equivalent number of DC points. This is an expensive proposition, but cheaper than pure trust points.

One problem you will also have with a Marriott resale week is trying to trade it in II for what appears to be prime time reservations that you are looking for. Spring break and peak summer are hard trades. Trading in II post DC requires a lot of flexibility. You may not have that given your desired travel pattern. You also don't seem to want to go back to the same resort or location year after year. So trading is really your only option.

I would look in to resale DC points, or even a hybrid DC/Resale week package. Though in order to keep the ongoing MFs low, you will need to buy an expensive resale week. Hope you have lots of money. You didn't mention budget in your initial post...


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## Fasttr (Jul 29, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> I will definately do the math however in doing the math this is where I am trying to figure out the best way to buy with Marriott considering my needs. I do not fully understand the ins and the outs of buying a week and trading for another Marriott vacation club. For instance, how do I know the value of that week, how do I trade for another MVC? Do I have to go through II or just through Marriott? Is this possible with buying a week or do I absolutely have to buy points?
> 
> We are also owners of Disney and are very satisfied. The reason we are looking into Marriott is as a compliment to Disney. MArriott has more resorts without having to go through II (or with Disney, RCI).



Have you read the Weeks FAQ sticky, which will likely answer a lot of your weeks ownership questions...  http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=391

and

Have you read the Points FAQ Sticky, which will likely answer a lot of your points ownership questions.  http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197346


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## vacationtime1 (Jul 29, 2014)

I don't see you as a good candidate to buy a timeshare because your goal is to travel to many places.  Timeshares work best if you want to return to the same place year after year (or at least return to the same place most of the time).

Trading is inherently uncertain, and Marriott changed the game when it started its Destination Club.  Marriott used to sell weeks and needed to create flexibility for week owners.  Now, Marriott's goal is to sell points and maximize the flexibility of point ownership (either DC point owners or legacy point owners).  We are seeing fewer units being deposited and units not being deposited until very close to the travel dates (creating airfare issues).  As long as you are tied to a school vacation schedule, you will be competing with many for prime weeks. 

Buying enough points to go to a top tier Marriott resort will cost you about $60,000 + $2,400 annual fees (a bit less with a mixed package of a legacy week + points).  For that much money (assuming you impute a reasonable return on your "investment"), you can rent anywhere you want.  Renting the right timeshare can be a great deal, far better than multiple hotel rooms or a suite.

The right resale week can still be an excellent deal.  But if your goal is to trade over half of the time, the best "currency" is cash, not an owned week deposited into Interval and is not Marriott's destination points.

btw--With your family size, you should definitely want two bedroom units.  One of the best parts of timesharing is space -- tons more space than you would get in a hotel.  Don't lose this advantage in the process.


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## jont (Jul 30, 2014)

zfw4609 said:


> My family has vacationed in Marriott, Hilton and Hyatt properties over the years and with only one exception, have always been able to get the weeks that we wanted. We've also been able to get them for the cost of the maintenance fee or less.



Are these rentals you are getting for the cost of MF's or less during peak seasons? If so, are they last minute rentals by desperate owners just trying recoup some of their money. Unless I'm missing something, I find it somewhat difficult to believe you could get something like a summer South Carolina rental for the cost of MF's. Shoulder seasons are more likely.


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## ksheppard (Jul 30, 2014)

Fasttr said:


> I know winters are cold up there and summers are short, but Spring break in August???



Oops...I meant "March".


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## Fasttr (Jul 30, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> Oops...I meant "March".



Sort of a tangent from the direction of the thread...but my wife and I took a drive up to Quebec City earlier this month, it was while the music festival was going on.  What a great city.  Old Quebec City was wonderful, like going to Europe for a fraction of the costs.  We had a lot of fun.  I recommend it for a short drivable trip for those in the northeast.


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## DCBoy (Jul 30, 2014)

Quebec City is the only way folks in the northeast can drive to Europe!


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## Fasttr (Jul 30, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> We are also owners of Disney and are very satisfied. The reason we are looking into Marriott is as a compliment to Disney. MArriott has more resorts without having to go through II (or with Disney, RCI).



If you are looking to utilize an internal Marriott Exchange system, without going through II, then the points system is the only option right now.  MVC drew a line in the sand back in June of 2010 for the date by which you had to own a resale purchased week to be eligible to enroll it into the points program, so purchasing one today leaves you to use II to trade into other Marriott's.  So if you really like the idea of booking Marriotts without going through II, I agree with a few others who are steering you towards a resale points purchase.  If you go in that direction, I strongly recommend a 1500 points purchase and simply rent the rest on VPE to satisfy your annual point needs (as they may change over time).  This method keeps your initial outlay of $$ lower than if buying a larger block of points, as well as keeps your annual mandatory MF hit as low as possible.  Make sure you are fully aware of the fees MVC charges to unlock your resale points for unfettered use in the system.


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## jont (Jul 30, 2014)

I see that the OP also owns a Disney TS. It is possible that they may only want to take a Marriott vacation every other year. With the ability to bank and borrow points they may be able to get a decent reservation utilizing a small points package and a minimal amount of points through renting.Also, like others have stated, the only way to trade within the Marriott system without using II is to own points.


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## vacationtime1 (Jul 30, 2014)

Fasttr said:


> If you are looking to utilize an internal Marriott Exchange system, without going through II, then the points system is the only option right now.  MVC drew a line in the sand back in June of 2010 for the date by which you had to own a resale purchased week to be eligible to enroll it into the points program, so purchasing one today leaves you to use II to trade into other Marriott's.  So if you really like the idea of booking Marriotts without going through II, I agree with a few others who are steering you towards a resale points purchase.  If you go in that direction, I strongly recommend a 1500 points purchase and simply rent the rest on VPE to satisfy your annual point needs (as they may change over time).  This method keeps your initial outlay of $$ lower than if buying a larger block of points, as well as keeps your annual mandatory MF hit as low as possible.  Make sure you are fully aware of the fees MVC charges to unlock your resale points for unfettered use in the system.



I agree that this is the cheapest way to get destination club points, but it is awfully expensive.  1500 points will cost about $18,000.  The resale unit from Marriott will bring the total up to "about" $40,000.  Add to that the annual MF on the points ($650), the annual MF on the enrolled unit purchased (approx $1,500), and the annual DC membership fee ($165?).

The creates an *annual* cost of about $4,000 for imputed interest/opportunity cost/investment risk on the $40,000 overall purchase price + about $2,315 out of pocket for the MF's and DC fee.  Each use week will cost $6,315. 

Before criticizing my 10% interest rate, bear in mind that as soon as the ink is dry, the purchaser will have lost about 60% of the $18,000 paid for the points and about the same percentage of the cost of the enrolled unit -- an immediate loss of about $24,000 of capital.  My 10% imputation is conservative.

I would rent.


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## Beefnot (Jul 30, 2014)

If your priority is convenience, buy points (resale).  If you highly value economy, then buy a resale week and learn how to use II, bonus weeks (II accomodation certificates, II XYZ exchanges) and Marriott Owner discounts on cash reservations.  

Depending on how frequently you will need to travel only during prime, high-demand, dates, the resale week route is the likely most economical and can be every bit as flexible as the points route, at the sacrifice of the convenience of a points system.


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## Beefnot (Jul 30, 2014)

vacationtime1 said:


> I would rent.


 
Yeah, that too.


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## Fasttr (Jul 30, 2014)

vacationtime1 said:


> I agree that this is the cheapest way to get destination club points, but it is awfully expensive.  1500 points will cost about $18,000.  The resale unit from Marriott will bring the total up to "about" $40,000.  Add to that the annual MF on the points ($650), the annual MF on the enrolled unit purchased (approx $1,500), and the annual DC membership fee ($165?).
> 
> The creates an *annual* cost of about $4,000 for imputed interest/opportunity cost/investment risk on the $40,000 overall purchase price + about $2,315 out of pocket for the MF's and DC fee.  Each use week will cost $6,315.
> 
> ...



I was not recommending the hybrid approach.  I was recommending a 1500 point purchase only.  Your $18K is correct if you are talking a developer purchase of the points, but if the OP purchased them resale at $4/point and paid the $3K junk fees to open them up in the system, they likely have their 1500 points for an all-in cost of around $10K.  And they are only on the hook for annual MF's of around $675 (at today's rates).  From there, they just rent the rest as needed.  

I am not saying renting is still not perhaps their better option, I am merely tossing out ideas for them to consider.


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## presley (Jul 30, 2014)

I agree with the others that buying a very small points package and renting in the extras is a good thing to look at.  Here's another place you can read more about renting points, etc.  Most of the active people there are also active here.

http://vacationpointexchange.com/index.php


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## vacationtime1 (Jul 30, 2014)

Fasttr said:


> *I was not recommending the hybrid approach.*  I was recommending a 1500 point purchase only.  Your $18K is correct if you are talking a developer purchase of the points, but if the OP purchased them resale at $4/point and paid the $3K junk fees to open them up in the system, they likely have their 1500 points for an all-in cost of around $10K.  And they are only on the hook for annual MF's of around $675 (at today's rates).  From there, they just rent the rest as needed.
> 
> I am not saying renting is still not perhaps their better option, *I am merely tossing out ideas for them to consider.*



You are correct; I was focused on the earlier posts suggesting the hybrid package rather than the minimum points package + renting points.  Throwing out ideas for consideration is a good thing.

OP should calculate the true cost of all methods under consideration before proceeding and compare them to the cost of just renting.  Which is what we are all doing in this thread.


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## ksheppard (Jul 30, 2014)

vacationtime1 said:


> I agree that this is the cheapest way to get destination club points, but it is awfully expensive.  1500 points will cost about $18,000.  The resale unit from Marriott will bring the total up to "about" $40,000.  Add to that the annual MF on the points ($650), the annual MF on the enrolled unit purchased (approx $1,500), and the annual DC membership fee ($165?).
> 
> The creates an *annual* cost of about $4,000 for imputed interest/opportunity cost/investment risk on the $40,000 overall purchase price + about $2,315 out of pocket for the MF's and DC fee.  Each use week will cost $6,315.
> 
> ...





ok, I am trying to figure this out. If I buy points, I have the choice of buying through Marriott at about 18 000 $ for 1500 points or through resale. If I buy resale, then I have to pay 500$ per 250 beneficial interest...so that is 3000 $ plus, I beleive the educational fee of 300 $ (if I read properly). So it depends on how much I can buy the ponts for. 

I am also understanding that considering my needs, that buying a resle week is not the way to go. 

When we were in Hawaii this July, the offer was as folllowing: they suggested 3500 points. With that we got this years points and a possibility of another 3500 points credited at signing or 225 000 reward points. Plus, if were were to use the a Chase credit card for the purchase, we were getting another 180 000 reward points. To top it off, they were offering to pay for our stay which was approx. 3000 $. So the cost for 3500 points would have been about 33 000 $. The sales representative estimated that our real cost would be about 22 000 $ (11 000 $ being the 3500 points not used in 2014 and the total of 405 000 reward points).

So, I understand that the advice is not to go with  resale week but moreover to go with points (developper at 33 000 $ plus the incentives given) or resale. 

Any advice?

Do ou think Marriott is for us? Is there another TS that you know of that could be for us. We love travelling and Marriott has the luxury that we are looking for. If we rent and it costs 3500 $ a week.....I just feel that it is better to spend the capital on our own timeshare. Am I right?

I appreciate so much all the advice that I am recieving. Thank you.


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## kds4 (Jul 30, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> ok, I am trying to figure this out. If I buy points, I have the choice of buying through Marriott at about 18 000 $ for 1500 points or through resale. If I buy resale, then I have to pay 500$ per 250 beneficial interest...so that is 3000 $ plus, I beleive the educational fee of 300 $ (if I read properly). So it depends on how much I can buy the ponts for.
> 
> I am also understanding that considering my needs, that buying a resle week is not the way to go.
> 
> ...



From my own experience, I can tell you that we love owning our weeks. We purchased all 3 of them resale but like you we love to exchange and go to other locations. We tend to visit our home resort about every other year. While we generally prefer exchanging into other Marriott properties, we have also had no trouble exchanging into reputable non-Marriott properties in locations without one (such as the Caribbean). 

For what it's worth, our resale weeks are very strong traders (with Europe and the Caribbean being no trouble). Plus, because they are 'lock-offs' we can effectively double our staying power by splitting each unit into 2 parts and then creating exchanges with both halves of each of our weeks. (This also constructively cuts our maintenance fees in half as we get 2 weeks of usage out of 1 week of ownership. We also like having something to 'pass-on' to the kids. Although, part of that may be because we are 2nd generation timeshare owners ourselves. Resale prices for the 3BR lock-off units we own run in the $5,000 range.

Understand that I am in no way disputing any of the other advice that has been posted in this thread. I am only pointing out that there are many ways to slice the apple and in general all are good options (outside of developer purchasing).


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## cman (Jul 30, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> ok, I am trying to figure this out. If I buy points, I have the choice of buying through Marriott at about 18 000 $ for 1500 points or through resale. If I buy resale, then I have to pay 500$ per 250 beneficial interest...so that is 3000 $ plus, I beleive the educational fee of 300 $ (if I read properly). So it depends on how much I can buy the ponts for.
> 
> I am also understanding that considering my needs, that buying a resle week is not the way to go.
> 
> ...




My advice is to take a sheet of paper and draw a line down the middle of it. On one side add up the total cost it will cost you to purchase the points over the expected period of use (5, 10, 15 years). Don't forget to include the cost of the maintenance fees. Once you've added your cost, you'll need to subtract what you expect to sell it for. Please keep in mind that   you're not going to get anywhere near your purchase price.

On the other side of the paper, calculate the total cost you'd incur if you rented the same accommodations. You can even add 25% to the going rental rate for the property of your choice if you like. 

Based on the flexibility that you're looking for, my advice would be to rent. There are legitimate reasons for purchasing a unit if you plan to frequent a specific resort, DVC is an excellent example. However, in your case, a Marriott purchase of either points or weeks are not going to give you what your family is looking for.

Run the numbers and get back with us on what you come up with. I'd be interested to know.


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## ksheppard (Jul 30, 2014)

kds4 said:


> For what it's worth, our resale weeks are very strong traders (with Europe and the Caribbean being no trouble). Plus, because they are 'lock-offs' we can effectively double our staying power by splitting each unit into 2 parts and then creating exchanges with both halves of each of our weeks. (This also constructively cuts our maintenance fees in half as we get 2 weeks of usage out of 1 week of ownership. We also like having something to 'pass-on' to the kids. Although, part of that may be because we are 2nd generation timeshare owners ourselves. Resale prices for the 3BR lock-off units we own run in the $5,000 range.




Did you buy after 2010? Are you exchanging your weeks with II? How do I know which resort has a good trading value? Do you trading during peak season?


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## GregT (Jul 30, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> Do ou think Marriott is for us? Is there another TS that you know of that could be for us. We love travelling and Marriott has the luxury that we are looking for.



Marriott has a terrific network of properties and their point system is a good one.  You will find many usage parallels to Disney with Marriott, if you buy points.

The challenge with Marriott is that it is not possible to get into the Marriott system cost-effectively (via resale).  You will likely pay $6/point fully-loaded (including junk fees) to buy points.    Fasttr's advice is the best way to get into the system -- buy the smallest package you can and then rent the additional points that you need.   Even this is $9K for effectively 3 days out of 7 in a 2BR at most properties (and 1 or 2 days in Hawaii).  That's not really cost-effective, it's just the best we have.

I am deeply wedded to the Marriott system because of the weeks that I own (and benefit from having pre-June 2010 weeks).  If I was looking for a point system today as my primary timeshare, in addition to considering Marriott, I would look hard at Starwood and HGVC.     Both have point systems that are comparable to Marriott's in terms of flexibility, but they can be purchased more cost effectively than Marriott.   

Let's assume you had $10K to burn on a timeshare, and were willing to spend $2K/year on annual fees, then you could do the following:

*Marriott*:

Buy 1,500 points for $9K
Pay $700 for the MFs, and rent another 2,500 points for $1,300
With 4,000 points, you could get:

1BR ski week at Mountainside (with 500 points left over)
1BR summer week at Ko Olina (with 275-700 points left over)
2BR February/March week in St. Thomas (you need to rent another 125 pts)
2BR in Palm Desert (need to rent a few more points too)
2BR in Hilton Head (with leftover points/need more points depending on property)

The ability to rent points is a tremendous benefit to the Marriott system.  This alone is a huge advantage to Marriott.

The weakness is that for your $2,000 in MFs, you are basically getting 7 vacation days, some of which are in a 1BR.  If you can travel off-season, you will get more vacation days for your $2,000 (alot more vacation days).  

But, you must ask yourself, is $2,000 for 7 days vacation dramatically different from what you would get by renting?   You may be able to replicate all of the reservations above by renting.

*HGVC*
With your $10K, you would:

Buy a 2BR Platinum in Orlando worth 7,000 points for $6,500
Buy a 1BR Platinum in Orlando worth 4,800 points for $3,500

MFs on these properties total $2,000

With your 11,800 HGVC points, you can book another 2BR and another 1BR -- it has a fixed point structure (note: there are some higher point properties, but it is generally 7,000/4,800).  So, you have 14 vacation days, half in a 2BR and half in a 1BR.

HGVC has a smaller network of properties (still high quality), and you can do the following:

1BR in Myrtle Beach/2BR in Hawaii
2BR in Orlando/1BR in Las Vegas
2BR in Park City/1BR in Miami

All of these would be in prime season.  As with Marriott, if you travel Gold season, you can increase significantly the number of days.  HGVC also has a very good rental program within 30 days of check-in.  They use this to fill empty rooms.  But you can't rent points.

The weakness of HGVC is its concentration on Hawaii/Las Vegas/Orlando.  If these are not areas of interest, the system has less value to you.

*Starwood*
With your $10K, you would:

Buy a 1BR Platinum annual at Westin Kierland Villas for $8K (low MFs)
Buy a 2BR Platinum at SVV for $2K 

This will give you 176,700 StarOptions annually, for your $2,000 MF (might be $2,200)

With this you can book:

2BR in Maui for 148,100 StarOptions
2BR in Bahamas for 148,100 Staroptions (or 1BR for 81K, leaving 95,700)
2BR in Myrtle Beach
2BR ski week for 148,100 StarOptions
2BR at Westin St. John for 176,700 (note: tough reservation to get)
1BR in Cancun (81,000 points) and a 1BR in Hawaii (81,000 points)

Like HGVC, there is alot of structure to the StarOptions required for a 2BR (148,100) or a 1BR (81,000) in Platinum.  You can stretch your points by traveling in Gold Season.   Like Marriott and HGVC (and Disney), you can bank your leftover points.  In Starwood, like HGVC, you can't transfer points.

All three of the systems have their pro's/con's.  Part of it depends on where you want to go.  I want to go to Hawaii.  HGVC is very very strong in Hawaii, but they aren't on Maui.   Starwood is on Maui and also on Kauai.  HGVC is on Oahu and Big Island.  So how do you cover your bases?  Buy both.  

I think it's important to consider where you really want to go, and how often you want to visit.  Then consider who has properties there (and how accessible will they be to you).   It's great that Starwood has a rocking property on St. John -- but it's very tough to book.  I've only been able to book once (not for lack of trying).   Many Marriotts won't be simple to access because the availability is still unpredictable.  Assume that Marriotts are like trying to book Disney properties 7 months out -- sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  HGVC is far and away the most reliable system for reservations.   

I hope that helped -- truly a random dump of information.  Please ask clarifying questions and happy to assist.

Best,

Greg


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## ksheppard (Jul 30, 2014)

zfw4609 said:


> My advice is to take a sheet of paper and draw a line down the middle of it. On one side add up the total cost it will cost you to purchase the points over the expected period of use (5, 10, 15 years). Don't forget to include the cost of the maintenance fees. Once you've added your cost, you'll need to subtract what you expect to sell it for. Please keep in mind that   you're not going to get anywhere near your purchase price.
> 
> On the other side of the paper, calculate the total cost you'd incur if you rented the same accommodations. You can even add 25% to the going rental rate for the property of your choice if you like.
> 
> ...




I did what you mentionned and every way that I calculate it (developper points, resale points, 3500 points versus 1500 points plus renting the difference etc) versus renting and renting always comes out a lot less expensive. I did my calculations on a 10 year period and then on a 20 year period.

Why then do people buy?


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## GregT (Jul 30, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> Why then do people buy?



A 7 day reservation _can_ be very cost effective for a traditional timeshare week.

And those people offering rentals are renting their timeshare week, not a points reservation.

Points bring flexibility, but its expensive flexibility.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 30, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> Why then do people buy?



Because they don't have the time to run the numbers during the sales presentation. Then when they are on their way, they are back to vacation mode. If they do run the numbers, many would do it after the rescission period is over. In most cases, though they don't ever run the numbers because they don't know about the ability to rent points or they don't know about TUG


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## vacationtime1 (Jul 31, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> Why then do people buy?



Excellent question.

I believe that most developer purchases are done in the moment (while on vacation) without much analysis, comparison shopping, or even understanding what is being purchased.  We did that the first time, but fortunately found TUG in time and rescinded.  At this point, only two types of properties pencil out financially for us:

1.  High end properties where we want to stay year after year, bought resale, of course.  For us, that is Kierland and WKORV-OF.  Not cheap, and not really cheaper than renting if I impute a 10% cost of capital, but the certainty and simplicity are of value.  The resulting "mandatory" (because pre-paid) vacation and the ability to entertain friends and relatives are also of value to us.  (I understand that this is a rationalization.)

2.  Really cheap traders which can be leveraged into high end exchanges by expending excessive amounts of time on TUG and Interval.  We used to own four cheap Starwood traders (SDO and SBP); we have sold off three of them as Starwood has made trading more difficult and less predictable.

If I were starting again, I would develop the resort-specific knowledge base and then rent.  In the interim, we are selling off the units that don't pencil out.  For example, Marriott's Waiohai is a beautiful property, but there is no reason to pay $13K to own a week (resale price; resale points would cost $30K) when the MF's are $1800 and you can rent an OV unit for $2500.


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## cman (Jul 31, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> I did what you mentionned and every way that I calculate it (developper points, resale points, 3500 points versus 1500 points plus renting the difference etc) versus renting and renting always comes out a lot less expensive. I did my calculations on a 10 year period and then on a 20 year period.
> 
> Why then do people buy?



There are valid reasons to buy. If you have a resort in mind that you enjoy visiting often, then a buying may be for you. If on the other hand, you have a growing family and would like to visit several different resorts in the coming years, renting is the way to go.

From a financial perspective, your calculations are exactly what I figured they would be. You should trust them.

Another benefit of renting is that you avoid the burden of having to unload the unit when you're done with it in ten years. You also don't have to worry about making timely reservations months in advance or changes to the program that devalue your ownership. When renting, you just send the payment, enjoy the use of the week and you're done. 

The disparity in the cost between buying and renting a Marriott property is so outlandish that you could easily add 25% to the going rental rate of any of their properties and still come out cheaper than the cost to purchase the same accommodations.  

For a young family such as yours, with years of vacations ahead of you. Renting is the way to go for now. If your family happens to settle on a destination that they would like to visit every year, then you may want to reconsider. But whatever you do...run the numbers first.


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## Fasttr (Jul 31, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> Because they don't have the time to run the numbers during the sales presentation. Then when they are on their way, they are back to vacation mode. If they do run the numbers, many would do it after the rescission period is over. In most cases, though they don't ever run the numbers because they don't know about the ability to rent points or they don't know about TUG



Agreed.  And if and when they do run the numbers, they likely do so based on a comparison to Marriott.com Leisure Rates as opposed to comparing them to Redweek rental rates.  Also, there are people would not consider renting from an owner on Redweek due to an inherent comfort/trust factor in dealing with a person, rather than with Marriott directly.  

If renting for $$ on Marriott.com is your comparison target, as an example, a 2BR Marriott Aruba Ocean club for the week of Sept 6th is running at $540/night + taxes on Marriott.com.  That's $3,780+taxes for the week.  As a comparison, that same 2BR can be snagged via the DC for 2,750 points, or approx. $1,240 in MF costs.  If this approach is used, its a much prettier picture.

As usual, your perspective makes all the difference.


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## ksheppard (Jul 31, 2014)

Just another question: in buying a week resale, how do I know the value of this week when trading through II? A platinum week at one resort is it equivalent to a platinum week at another resort?


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## FlyerBobcat (Jul 31, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> Just another question: in buying a week resale, how do I know the value of this week when trading through II? A platinum week at one resort is it equivalent to a platinum week at another resort?


No....   II uses a TDI (Travel Demand Index) chart that is geographic/region based, showing a relative demand on a weekly basis for the year.

This TDI is not specific to a given resort.  A definition can be found here: https://www.intervalworld.com/iimedia/pdf/iw/buyers-guide.pdf


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## kds4 (Jul 31, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> Did you buy after 2010? Are you exchanging your weeks with II? How do I know which resort has a good trading value? Do you trading during peak season?



We bought our Platinum week before 2010 and have since enrolled it in the DC. We generally convert it to DC points one year and to MRPs the next. That will change once we have enough points to top-off Lifetime Platinum Status with Marriott Rewards (the hotel chain rewards program, which is separate from MVCI).

Our 2 gold weeks were purchased after 2010. We use them to either visit our home resort of Grande Vista in Orlando, Florida or we deposit them with Interval International and do exchanges. We usually lock them off to create 2 deposits for each of the 2 gold weeks (for up to 4 deposits per year). Each deposit can have a lifespan of up to 3 years, giving us lots of time to arrange how we want to use a given deposit. We have booked as many as 3 units concurrently with II. This enabled us to share this past Christmas with 20 family members on Hilton Head Island at Marriott's Barony Beach Resort.

We still have 2 school age children at home. So, we usually travel Spring Break (Late March/Early April), summer months (June through August), and occasional holidays (Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Years).

As far as trading power goes, our confirmed exchanges for 2015 travel so far are:

Spring Break - Marriott's Barony Beach Resort (2BR), Hilton Head Island, SC.
July 4th Week - Marriott's Manor Club (2BR), Williamsburg, VA.

2014 has been equally good:

July 4th Week - Marriott's Lakeshore Reserve (2BR), Orlando, FL
Thanksgiving Break - Marriott's Royal Palms (2BR), Orlando, FL and Marriott's Lakeshore Reserve (2BR), Orlando, FL on back to back reservations for an extended stay.
Christmas/New Year's - Marriott's Ocean Watch (2BR), Myrtle Beach, SC.

These exchanges were either trading a like for like (2BR) side of our 3BR lock-off to get a 2BR at these resorts. However, in some cases I only had to trade the Studio/1BR side of our 3BR lock-off to get a 2BR. That ability to uptrade to a larger unit is a real indicator of trading power and I have been able to do it approx. 1/3 of the time (so far). A couple of times I have even managed to turn a studio into a 3BR (but only when my mojo was particularly strong with II ). As always, the more flexibility you can give yourself on where you want to go and how close to the date of travel to book the reservation, the greater the chances to 'uptrade'. 

Regardless, I can see several opportunities to uptrade a deposited 1BR side of one of our weeks (which is treated as a studio by II) to exchange into a 2BR unit in Orlando, 1BR in Hawaii, 1BR in Aruba, 2BR in Dominican Republic, or 2BR in Spain within the next 6 months.

The II Travel Demand Index or TDI is another resource you could consider. The TDI for Orlando area resorts is attached.

You will find there are many others who feel strongly about renting instead of owning, and that's fine too. However, for us, owning weeks has been a great choice (but we did also buy a small number of points, so technically we are invested in both sides of the Marriott program as owners of both weeks and points).


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## jont (Jul 31, 2014)

Great analysis Greg. Thank you for posting it. It's interesting to see the comparisons of different systems.


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## jont (Jul 31, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> Why then do people buy?


 I bought for one simple reason: it forces me to take a vacation each year and to basically prepay for it and to schedule it way in advance. If not I would probably forgo forking the 2-3 k each year to take a vacation and rely on the old standby excuses like I can't afford it this year or I can't take off from work.


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## Fasttr (Jul 31, 2014)

jont said:


> I bought for one simple reason: it forces me to take a vacation each year and to basically prepay for it and to schedule it way in advance. If not I would probably forgo forking the 2-3 k each year to take a vacation and rely on the old standby excuses like I can't afford it this year or I can't take off from work.



Tru Dat!!  Couldn't agree more.


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## cman (Jul 31, 2014)

OP, 

When comparing your options please make sure you account for your total cost. Some of the analysis I've seen by others in response to your post are making the comparison of maintenance fees to rental costs. The flaw in this approach is that it does not account for the initial cost to purchase into Marriott, which is a substantial amount. 

If you add your total cost of ownership over a 10 year period, renting is by far the most economical. It will even be less if you rent directly from Marriott.

As others have mentioned earlier in this thread, there are valid reasons for buying. However, most of those reasons are not financial. The bottom line is that you can get the exact same product with more flexibility by renting.


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## suzannesimon (Jul 31, 2014)

The only thing I would add is a comparison of renting vs exchanging.  If I'm not at my home resort, I believe that in the Marriott system, at least, I get a much better unit location if I'm renting from an owner than exchanging either with points or weeks.


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## Fasttr (Jul 31, 2014)

zfw4609 said:


> Some of the analysis I've seen by others in response to your post are making the comparison of maintenance fees to rental costs. The flaw in this approach is that it does not account for the initial cost to purchase into Marriott, which is a substantial amount.



I believe it is understood by most that use this approach, that the gap between MF and rental costs would be the amount available to amortize the up front purchase in any break even analysis.  Using my example in post #32, the gap of $2,540 annually would quickly amortize the upfront costs of approximately $10K (for a 1,500 DC points resale purchase) in much less than your 10 year recommended horizon.  I do realize it is comparing MF's to Marriott Leisure Rates, and I do realize its Aruba in September, which is likely a lower season (and is benefitted by MVC's oddly low point requirements for Aruba when Marriott.com Leisure Rates are pretty high there)....but I am just showing that based on one particular approach, with this particular targeted usage, you can see how it can make financial sense for some to consider a purchase.


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## ksheppard (Aug 1, 2014)

All of your advice is great and is definitely helping in clarifying our decision although our final decision is not yet made.

If we chose to buy a week resale, it would definitely be on the east coast considering that we are in Quebec. I still don't get how to pick a resort for the best II value. Is there a list somewhere that has all Marriott resorts listed with their trading value with II or do I have to go on II myself and look at each individually? 

Am I going about this wrong? Which resorts are the most appreciated on the East Coast? There are such varying resale prices.


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## kds4 (Aug 1, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> All of your advice is great and is definitely helping in clarifying our decision although our final decision is not yet made.
> 
> If we chose to buy a week resale, it would definitely be on the east coast considering that we are in Quebec. I still don't get how to pick a resort for the best II value. Is there a list somewhere that has all Marriott resorts listed with their trading value with II or do I have to go on II myself and look at each individually?
> 
> Am I going about this wrong? Which resorts are the most appreciated on the East Coast? There are such varying resale prices.



If you are going to seriously consider a resale purchase, I would recommend a week with a lock-off capability to enable you to split your weeks into 2 deposits for trading purposes. Not all resorts have units that lock-off. I would also recommend considering a 3BR unit over a 2BR unit. Not all resorts have 3BR units. I would also recommend making sure your choice of a home resort location is somewhere you will want to go, in the event you cannot exchange to another destination any particular year. As far as researching east coast resorts, the greatest concentration of Marriott Vacation Club properties is on Hilton Head Island, SC and in Orlando, FL. Our family really enjoys going to both places. Of the 2 destinations, I believe you can probably buy a resale week for the time of year you are interested in owning for less at an Orlando resort than a HHI resort. Ultimately, it will be up to you to do a lot of personal research.

As far as trying to value a resale week, I would check prices on Redweek, eBay, and the TUG ROFR spreadsheet where TUG members post their experiences successfully purchasing resale, how much they paid, and if their purchase made it through Marriott's Right of First Refusal (ROFR).


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## Fasttr (Aug 1, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> All of your advice is great and is definitely helping in clarifying our decision although our final decision is not yet made.
> 
> If we chose to buy a week resale, it would definitely be on the east coast considering that we are in Quebec. I still don't get how to pick a resort for the best II value. Is there a list somewhere that has all Marriott resorts listed with their trading value with II or do I have to go on II myself and look at each individually?
> 
> Am I going about this wrong? Which resorts are the most appreciated on the East Coast? There are such varying resale prices.



Seems like I see a lot of folks touting the mega trading power of a 3BR MGV (Grande Vista in Orlando).  

As kds4 mentioned, the ROFR database that dioxide45 keeps is a great tool for gauging pricing.  Here is the link http://dioxide45.tripod.com/index.html


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Aug 1, 2014)

GregT said:


> Marriott has a terrific network of properties and their point system is a good one.  You will find many usage parallels to Disney with Marriott, if you buy points.
> 
> The challenge with Marriott is that it is not possible to get into the Marriott system cost-effectively (via resale).  You will likely pay $6/point fully-loaded (including junk fees) to buy points.    Fasttr's advice is the best way to get into the system -- buy the smallest package you can and then rent the additional points that you need.   Even this is $9K for effectively 3 days out of 7 in a 2BR at most properties (and 1 or 2 days in Hawaii).  That's not really cost-effective, it's just the best we have.
> 
> ...



First, Greg, I want to thank you for this post. It is a masterful summation of the information that I need to make long term decisions.

Different people buy timeshares for different reasons. None of them are wrong, merely different needs/tastes.

I am not interested in timeshares as a tourist travel method. I'm not a tourist, so going to different places all the time is not a benefit to me. I am planning to be a "snowbird". (For those who haven't heard the term, a "snowbird" is a person who travels to a warm climate in the winter to avoid cold weather.)

From Greg's description of the competing systems, Hilton is the clear winner - for a "snowbird". Most reliable system to get the home resort when you want it, and somewhat more modest MF's. Plus the flexibility of swapping from Hawaii to Florida (long flight vs. short flight).

Thanks once again Greg. you provided me with just what I need...


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## jont (Aug 1, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> All of your advice is great and is definitely helping in clarifying our decision although our final decision is not yet made.
> 
> If we chose to buy a week resale, it would definitely be on the east coast considering that we are in Quebec. I still don't get how to pick a resort for the best II value. Is there a list somewhere that has all Marriott resorts listed with their trading value with II or do I have to go on II myself and look at each individually?
> 
> Am I going about this wrong? Which resorts are the most appreciated on the East Coast? There are such varying resale prices.



ksheppard
I still think your best option is to go the points route but if you were looking to buy a resale week on the east coast you have a few options. There will probably a lot of my fellow tuggers touting a lock off week in Orlando or Williamsburg Va. they are all good units and there are some very valid reasons for buying there. However, if it was me buying my first Marriott timeshare I would seriously consider one of the South Carolina beach resorts, specifically Grande Ocean, Barony, Surf watch and Ocean watch. I would also limit my search to the Platinum season an  a unit with an ocean view.  the drawbacks are that they are still relatively expensive compared to the others and also they are not lockoffs so you cannot double your vacation time. The positives are that they are excellent traders ( some of the best in the Marriott system) they have relatively low MF's and they are also great rentals which can easily get 2x maintenance fees. Based upon my own experience, my ocean watch, when traded through II has gotten me an Easter week in Aruba, A Christmas week at Ocean Pointe in West Palm Fl and a July week in at Newport Coast in Socal. all very diffiicult trades from what I have read.  I have been also been able to rent it for +2x maintenance fees for the past 3 years. looking back now, I wish I had bought several instead of some of the others that I now have. just wanted to give you an alternative point of view to the lock off chorus. like I said, that is also an excellent option and others have had great success trading those units but it would not be my personal first choice. Good luck with your decision, I know its not an easy one but you do have time on your side


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## ksheppard (Aug 1, 2014)

This is so much great information. I will go through it all again. When my decision is made, I will definitely let you know. Thank you.


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## suzannesimon (Aug 1, 2014)

If your main focus is to get some place warm in the winter, then I would buy as far south as I could get - Orlando, Ft Lauderdale, Ocean Pointe, Oceana Palms.  Also look at Hyatt.  They have 3 timeshares in Key West and one in Bonita Springs, Fl.  Some of these are lock-offs and others are not.  I've never locked off at all because I  prefer renting where I want to go if I don't own there, but that is a personal preference.  I certainly understand others not wanting to get involved with that.  I just like having control over where I'm going and when, rather than exchanging.


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## cman (Aug 1, 2014)

Fasttr said:


> I believe it is understood by most that use this approach, that the gap between MF and rental costs would be the amount available to amortize the up front purchase in any break even analysis.  Using my example in post #32, the gap of $2,540 annually would quickly amortize the upfront costs of approximately $10K (for a 1,500 DC points resale purchase) in much less than your 10 year recommended horizon.  I do realize it is comparing MF's to Marriott Leisure Rates, and I do realize its Aruba in September, which is likely a lower season (and is benefitted by MVC's oddly low point requirements for Aruba when Marriott.com Leisure Rates are pretty high there)....but I am just showing that based on one particular approach, with this particular targeted usage, you can see how it can make financial sense for some to consider a purchase.



I think you just made my point. The only way the numbers come out in favor of buying over renting is if one uses the highest available rental rate for 10 years. While the results may be technically accurate, I don't think they are realistic.

 The September week at Marriott's Aruba Ocean Club that you used in your earlier example is currently being advertised right here on TUG for $1600/wk and on Redweek four $2200/wk. Seeing as the OP has found TUG, I'm sure his rental costs will be substantially less than the Marriott Leisure rates.

As I stated earlier, there are valid reasons to purchase MVC. However, they are not financial ones.


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## jont (Aug 1, 2014)

zfw4609 said:


> As I stated earlier, there are valid reasons to purchase MVC. However, they are not financial ones.



I agree, however the same thing could be said about a lot of things in life, like having kids.


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## Fasttr (Aug 1, 2014)

zfw4609 said:


> I think you just made my point. The only way the numbers come out in favor of buying over renting is if one uses the highest available rental rate for 10 years. While the results may be technically accurate, I don't think they are realistic.
> 
> The September week at Marriott's Aruba Ocean Club that you used in your earlier example is currently being advertised right here on TUG for $1600/wk and on Redweek four $2200/wk. Seeing as the OP has found TUG, I'm sure his rental costs will be substantially less than the Marriott Leisure rates.
> 
> As I stated earlier, there are valid reasons to purchase MVC. However, they are not financial ones.



Lets use your $2200/wk Redweek rate.  The DC points stay is still cheaper than that by $960/week.  Lets say I like to spend 3 weeks a year there.  That's an annual savings of $2,880 as my upfront costs don't change because I only purchased the minimum of a Base Interest of 1500 points resale to get into the DC program, and I merely rent the rest as needed.  Again, I recoup the $10K upfront costs pretty quickly.

Even using your $1600/wk TUG pricing, the DC points saves you $360 a week.  Again, if I like to spend 3 weeks there, that an annual savings of $1,080 and I am much closer to your 10 year horizon before I break even, but I do eventually get there.

And yes, I do realize that I am making the assumption that I can rent the extra points I need for the same as MF's on the points would be, and in my experience, it usually costs me about a nickel more a point....but that amount is clearly immaterial to the calculation.

Anyhow, not trying to argue against your point, as in many, if not most cases its likely spot on, but I am merely trying to show that if your plans for usage happen to be targeted to where and when there are bargains in the DC system, you can make it work to your financial advantage, and that advantage gets magnified the more weeks you plan to use due to the fact that your upfront costs are fixed, but your ability to use the system is not and the ability to rent points is the key.


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## ksheppard (Aug 1, 2014)

Fasttr said:


> And yes, I do realize that I am making the assumption that I can rent the extra points I need for the same as MF's on the points would be, and in my experience, it usually costs me about a nickel more a point....but that amount is clearly immaterial to the calculation.




Is it always possible to rent points internally (if I buy 1500 points and need more) or can it be a problem?


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## Fasttr (Aug 1, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> Is it always possible to rent points internally (if I buy 1500 points and need more) or can it be a problem?



"Always" is a very long time in the Marriott world.....but the current system allows for unlimited transfers between members, which makes for the renting of points possible.  In my opinion, its the one huge benefit of the Marriott DC program.  

So far, there are more points for rent, than there are renters wanting to rent (at least from my perspective), so from where I sit, it appears to be a rentee's (is that a word?) market.

On VPE, there are mega point renters, that own fractional shares in Grand Residences, etc who annually rent out 100K+ points.  Many others with over 10K of points to rent, and again many others with smaller batches.  I have never found it difficult to find points to rent at a reasonable rate at any time I have wanted to rent them.


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## cman (Aug 1, 2014)

Fasttr said:


> Lets use your $2200/wk Redweek rate.  The DC points stay is still cheaper than that by $960/week.  Lets say I like to spend 3 weeks a year there.  That's an annual savings of $2,880 as my upfront costs don't change because I only purchased the minimum of a Base Interest of 1500 points resale to get into the DC program, and I merely rent the rest as needed.  Again, I recoup the $10K upfront costs pretty quickly.
> 
> Even using your $1600/wk TUG pricing, the DC points saves you $360 a week.  Again, if I like to spend 3 weeks there, that an annual savings of $1,080 and I am much closer to your 10 year horizon before I break even, but I do eventually get there.
> 
> ...



By presenting an example that does not consider the initial capital expense, I think you're making the same mistake many others have when running the numbers. This is the way the timeshare salespeople make their comparisons. Don't fall for it.

Your first example that concludes that a DC Points stay is $960/wk cheaper than a $2200/wk Redweek week does not account for the $10K you paid to get into the program. Keep in mind that that $10K is in 2014 dollars. 

Again, you make my point. The only way to get the numbers to add up is to discount the present value of the initial investment and/or use an exorbanant rental rate. Absent these extreme examples, I've not seen anything that I would recomend to the OP based on his stated needs, with the exception of renting.

There are valid reasons for buying. They're just not financial ones.


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## Fasttr (Aug 1, 2014)

zfw4609 said:


> By presenting an example that does not consider the initial capital expense, I think you're making the same mistake many others have when running the numbers. This is the way the timeshare salespeople make their comparisons. Don't fall for it.



Apparently you are not understanding my examples.  The savings is what one applies to amortize (i.e. pay yourself back for) the initial investment.  That's assumed.  Trust me, I understand the concept.


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## Beefnot (Aug 1, 2014)

Fasttr said:


> Apparently you are not understanding my examples. The savings is what one applies to amortize (i.e. pay yourself back for) the initial investment. That's assumed. Trust me, I understand the concept.


 

I follow you.  It may depend on how one travels.  Assuming they aren't digging themselves into a hole manufacturing expensive travel plans to "recoup" their initial investment.  Although the time horizon for that "recoupment" becomes extended due to the time value of money.


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## Fasttr (Aug 1, 2014)

Beefnot said:


> I follow you.  It may depend on how one travels.  Assuming they aren't digging themselves into a hole manufacturing expensive travel plans to "recoup" their initial investment.  Although the time horizon for that "recoupment" becomes extended due to the time value of money.



Agreed on both counts.  As for the expensive travel, we do tend to take nicer vacations than we did before TS'ing, but we all likely fall into that category.  As jont put it, because you know you paid for it already, it "forces" you to take a nice trip.  That said, we likely spend more on eating out, etc. during those vacations because we know we don't have to swipe the card at the end of the week for the room night charges.  Hey...you only live once...right!!!


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## cman (Aug 1, 2014)

Fasttr said:


> Apparently you are not understanding my examples.  The savings is what one applies to amortize (i.e. pay yourself back for) the initial investment.  That's assumed.  Trust me, I understand the concept.



I guess I don't. After adding fees, costs and accounting for the present value expense of $10K, I can't for the life of me get your results.

My response to OP were based on his stated needs when he started the thread. I guess it got convoluted from a spring break week and the summer, to a 3 week vacation in Aruba. Based on the usage that OP is projecting, and his desire for flexibility. Would you still advise buying as opposed to renting?


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## jont (Aug 1, 2014)

Fasttr said:


> Agreed on both counts.  As for the expensive travel, we do tend to take nicer vacations than we did before TS'ing, but we all likely fall into that category.  As jont put it, because you know you paid for it already, it "forces" you to take a nice trip.  That said, we likely spend more on eating out, etc. during those vacations because we know we don't have to swipe the card at the end of the week for the room night charges.  Hey...you only live once...right!!!



We fell into that trap when we first started TSing. We used to go on expensive tours and ended up eating out a lot.since then we have  become much more friugal during our vacations. We spend more time relaxing on the beach and cooking in the unit than eating out all the time and going on expensive tours.


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## GregT (Aug 1, 2014)

zfw4609 said:


> I guess I don't. After adding fees, costs and accounting for the present value expense of $10K, I can't for the life of me get your results.
> 
> My response to OP were based on his stated needs when he started the thread. I guess it got convoluted from a spring break week and the summer, to a 3 week vacation in Aruba. Based on the usage that OP is projecting, and his desire for flexibility. Would you still advise buying as opposed to renting?



I was following Fasttr as saying that the points-cost of his reservation is often less than the rental cost, whether it is a TUG rental, a redweek.com rental, whether it is Aruba, Hawaii or Park City.  

And at some point, the modest discount to whatever the rental price is will recoup the acquisition cost (loss) of the purchase of the points, which aren't worthless.  The $10K purchase (notice that I didn't use the word investment) could be resold for some residual value, perhaps $5K.

So that $5K unrealized loss needs to amortized over how-ever many reservations the points buyer makes.  If it's a single 7-day vacation per year, it's going to take a long time.  That person should consider renting.

If it's multiple weekend trips (for which there is no redweek.com option), if its adding a single day onto that 7-day redweek.com rental, if it's a trip less than 7 days, it's very possible that the user is making a reservation that is not available in a different manner, except the rack rate through Marriott.com.   And DClub is the only game in town.  And you can theoretically do an unlimited number of reservations.

I'm not advocating buying points -- I'm merely saying that the financial analysis is much more complex that it appears.  I believe there is an intangible value to being in DClub that might make it worth that immediate $5K loss on your purchase price.    But that's a personal decision.

Best,

Greg


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## Beefnot (Aug 1, 2014)

GregT said:


> And at some point, the modest discount to whatever the rental price is will recoup the acquisition cost (loss) of the purchase of the points, which aren't worthless. The $10K purchase (notice that I didn't use the word investment) could be resold for some residual value, perhaps $5K.
> 
> 
> If it's multiple weekend trips (for which there is no redweek.com option), if its adding a single day onto that 7-day redweek.com rental, if it's a trip less than 7 days, it's very possible that the user is making a reservation that is not available in a different manner, except the rack rate through Marriott.com. And DClub is the only game in town. And you can theoretically do an unlimited number of reservations.


 
A conservatively estimated resale value from which to deduct from the acquisition cost is something, including myself, frequently overlooks, so that is a good callout.  

When we talk about trips less than 7 days, keep in mind that with ACs, Getaways, and XYZ exchanges, there are very inexpensive vacation opportunities, particularly for offseason travel.  Remember, staying a full 7 days is an option, not a requirement, and even amortizing the cost over a few days may be cheaper (sometimes far cheaper) than points or Marriott.com rentals, or marginally more expensive in that it makes a points purchase that much more difficult to financially rationalize.  

But if one has the cash laying around and values convenience over saving $, Marriott points is definitely worth considering.  I love Shell points. If I could buy into Marriott DC for how much I purchased my Shell points, I'd be all over it.


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## Fasttr (Aug 1, 2014)

GregT said:


> I'm not advocating buying points -- I'm merely saying that the financial analysis is much more complex that it appears.  I believe there is an intangible value to being in DClub that might make it worth that immediate $5K loss on your purchase price.    But that's a personal decision.



Agreed.  I also feel that by being a member of the DC (but this could apply to a MVC weeks owner as well), my MOD rate savings on a few long weekend short stays (that I would have done anyhow and paid full Marriott.com Leisure Rate for if I was not an owner) more than offset any annual club dues, and any imputed interest on my DC points purchase price.  All I can say is for me, it works and I am happy to be an owner....and I can see a time in the not too distant future, when I retire, and I want to take those 3 week trips to Aruba, that the points program will really pay off for me, assuming that the ability to rent points continues to be there.


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## cman (Aug 1, 2014)

GregT said:


> I was following Fasttr as saying that the points-cost of his reservation is often less than the rental cost, whether it is a TUG rental, a redweek.com rental, whether it is Aruba, Hawaii or Park City.
> 
> And at some point, the modest discount to whatever the rental price is will recoup the acquisition cost (loss) of the purchase of the points, which aren't worthless.  The $10K purchase (notice that I didn't use the word investment) could be resold for some residual value, perhaps $5K.
> 
> ...




GregT,

OP started this thread with a request for information and clearly stated his needs. I just don't want the guy to be steered in the wrong direction with partial information. The example provided by a previous poster used a September week that required 2750 points for a one week stay. That's the lowest point value for a week that Aruba Ocean Club offers. For OP to take his family to that resort during the times he's needing, a March week would cost him 4650 points for the same 2BR OV unit and a summer week would cost him 3500 points. Based on OP's stated needs, renting is clearly the best option at this resort for his family from a financial perspective. His travel needs, like mine, are during peak periods. With the points needed for a 7 night stay during these peak periods, I've yet to find a Marriott resort where it was cheaper to buy compared to renting.

I agree with your assessment that at some time the initial $10K investment will recoup itself. However, I'm having a difficult time calculating when that will be. I have no idea what these points will be worth 10 years from now. The only thing I'm certain of is that they'll be worth substantially less than they are now. I think your estimate of 50% is reasonable but I'd be happy to just get 30%.

The option you mentioned for using points for multiple weekend trips and/or using them to ad days to a 7 day reservation is something that I've heard about but never looked into. I think this type of flexibility would work for us since we sometimes take 3 or 4 day trips. The first time I took the kids on one of these we stayed in a hotel. My son walked in, looked around and then asked us, "where is my bedroom". My daughter then chimed in with, "where's the kitchen". After explaining that this was a hotel room, my son commented, "this is so ghetto".

You make some good points and I agree that the analysis is more complex than has been detailed in this thread. The good news is that we've given to OP a lot of information and he'll be better prepared when making his decision.


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## Fasttr (Aug 1, 2014)

Beefnot said:


> When we talk about trips less than 7 days, keep in mind that with ACs, Getaways, and XYZ exchanges, there are very inexpensive vacation opportunities, particularly for offseason travel.  Remember, staying a full 7 days is an option, not a requirement, and even amortizing the cost over a few days may be cheaper (sometimes far cheaper) than points or Marriott.com rentals, or marginally more expensive in that it makes a points purchase that much more difficult to financially rationalize.



Good points, but if you are a pure renter and not an owner, you likely don't have access to AC's, Getaways, and XYZ's that you mentioned or the MOD rate that I mentioned in my prior post.  Broadening GregT's thought a bit beyond the DC about ownership having intangible value , being an owner (whether its points or weeks) provides you some additional advantages over being a pure renter.  Over time, all of these items add value that help to chip away at the initial purchase price cash outlay.


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## ksheppard (Aug 1, 2014)

zfw4609;1657025. My response to OP were based on his stated needs when he started the thread. I guess it got convoluted from a spring break week and the summer said:
			
		

> There was never ant talk about a 3 week vacation in Aruba. A mistake regarding spring break (I wrote August instead of what was suppose to be March).


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## Fasttr (Aug 1, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> There was never ant talk about a 3 week vacation in Aruba. A mistake regarding spring break (I wrote August instead of what was suppose to be March).



The 3 weeks in Aruba was an example I had given.  That was directed at me....not you.


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## Fasttr (Aug 1, 2014)

zfw4609 said:


> The good news is that we've given to OP a lot of information and he'll be better prepared when making his decision.



Something we all can agree on!!


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## ksheppard (Aug 1, 2014)

I guess if I sum it up....:

1 - best to rent

2 - buy a resale week (financially more advantageous but no flexibility; Can only trade through II so should plan on going to this resort at least every second year) - if we were to buy : buying in Hilton Head or Myrtle Beach (a 2 or 3 bedroom lock off (if they exist) in Platinum season is the best;

3 - buy 1500 destination points resale (will have to pay Marriott per beneficial interst) and then rent the remaining points needed. This gives more flexibility but will be a lot more expensive.



Is that right?


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## jont (Aug 1, 2014)

Sorry, Hilton Head and MB have no lock offs. All are 2 bedrooms except Surfwatch which has some 3 Brs and Monarch that has 1? 3br.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 1, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> 2 - buy a resale week (financially more advantageous but no flexibility; Can only trade through II so should plan on going to this resort at least every second year) - if we were to buy : buying in Hilton Head or Myrtle Beach (a 2 or 3 bedroom lock off (if they exist) in Platinum season is the best;



It isn't that weeks are not flexible, they are just less flexible. Also, I am aware of only four resorts with 3BR lock off units; Grande Vista, Grand Chateau, Ko'Olina, and Maui Ocean Club Lahaina & Napili. Those are also listed in price, lowest to highest in what you would pay on the resale market. With a big price span between the first and the last, and I mean BIG! MFs are the same.

I would say the Grande Vista 3BR lock off could trade for 99% of the same stuff the Maui Ocean Club 3BR can. If you can travel in 7 day increments, you can do great things with a 3BR Grande Vista. If you need a super tough trade, deposit the whole 3BR unit and request a 2BR. As long as the unit is deposited by another owner, chances are good you will get it.

I think a good price for a 3BR Grande Vista Platinum is about $5000-$7500.


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## cman (Aug 1, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> I guess if I sum it up....:
> 
> 1 - best to rent
> 
> ...



It sounds like you have a pretty idea of your available options. The timing of your family vacations are similar to mine. My family would grow tired of returning to the same destination every year, so flexibility is very important to us. As your kids get older, things such as scout camp, band camp and other activities really complicate the ability to plan a vacation 9-11 months in advance. When renting, there's no need for long term planning, you can literally secure a rental a day or two in advance.

Marriott is an excellent product and a majority of their owners are happy with their purchase. I assume that they're happy with the quality of the product and the fact that their ownership corresponds with their needs. For families like ours, who desire to travel to multiple destinations during peak travel periods, I just can't get the numbers to work for any Marriott resort. None of them!

If in your search for information you should discover something that I have missed, please share it with me. I'd love to know about it and so would many others with school age children.

Best wishes.


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## kds4 (Aug 2, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> It isn't that weeks are not flexible, they are just less flexible. Also, I am aware of only four resorts with 3BR lock off units; Grande Vista, Grand Chateau, Ko'Olina, and Maui Ocean Club Lahaina & Napili. Those are also listed in price, lowest to highest in what you would pay on the resale market. With a big price span between the first and the last, and I mean BIG! MFs are the same.
> 
> I would say the Grande Vista 3BR lock off could trade for 99% of the same stuff the Maui Ocean Club 3BR can. If you can travel in 7 day increments, you can do great things with a 3BR Grande Vista. If you need a super tough trade, deposit the whole 3BR unit and request a 2BR. As long as the unit is deposited by another owner, chances are good you will get it.
> 
> I think a good price for a 3BR Grande Vista Platinum is about $5000-$7500.



I agree with Dioxide's assessment of price. My estimate of $5000 was based on a 3BR Grande Vista Gold, if not less. I don't think $7500 for a platinum week is inaccurate. By comparison, when we purchased our resale MGV 3BR Platinum in 2009, we paid approximately $12000 factoring in maintenance fee offsets from the seller. Prices have since come down. However, I think they have been stable at the range Dioxide and I have quoted for the past year or two.


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## kds4 (Aug 2, 2014)

zfw4609 said:


> It sounds like you have a pretty idea of your available options. The timing of your family vacations are similar to mine. My family would grow tired of returning to the same destination every year, so flexibility is very important to us. As your kids get older, things such as scout camp, band camp and other activities really complicate the ability to plan a vacation 9-11 months in advance. When renting, there's no need for long term planning, you can literally secure a rental a day or two in advance.
> 
> Marriott is an excellent product and a majority of their owners are happy with their purchase. I assume that they're happy with the quality of the product and the fact that their ownership corresponds with their needs. For families like ours, who desire to travel to multiple destinations during peak travel periods, I just can't get the numbers to work for any Marriott resort. None of them!
> 
> ...



To ensure it doesn't appear that I am anti-owning or renting points, I will point out to the OP one of our favorite benefits of the DC points program is the ability to 'stretch' points using the Sunday through Friday reservation option. Generally, MVC values week-end nights at a premium over week-day nights, and can charge double or even triple the number of points required to reserve one night if it is a Friday or Saturday night that you want to stay. This creates a huge potential point cost saving between the cost of a 5 night (Sun-Fri) reservation and a full 7 night reservation. Using 5 night reservations, you can stretch your vacation point 'dollar' (whether you own the points or rented them). Even better, this is uniformly true year round, as week-end nights are always higher in point cost than week-day nights. 

When we travel on points, we generally use this 5 night reservation option. The only caveat to a 5 night reservation compared to a 7 night reservation is that while you can book a full week's (7 nights) reservation 12 months out, less than a full week (such as a 5 night trip) cannot be reserved until 10 months out.


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## kds4 (Aug 2, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> It isn't that weeks are not flexible, they are just less flexible. Also, I am aware of only four resorts with 3BR lock off units; Grande Vista, Grand Chateau, Ko'Olina, and Maui Ocean Club Lahaina & Napili. Those are also listed in price, lowest to highest in what you would pay on the resale market. With a big price span between the first and the last, and I mean BIG! MFs are the same.
> 
> I would say the Grande Vista 3BR lock off could trade for 99% of the same stuff the Maui Ocean Club 3BR can. If you can travel in 7 day increments, you can do great things with a 3BR Grande Vista. If you need a super tough trade, deposit the whole 3BR unit and request a 2BR. As long as the unit is deposited by another owner, chances are good you will get it.
> 
> I think a good price for a 3BR Grande Vista Platinum is about $5000-$7500.



I"m pretty sure that Lakeshore Reserve also has lock-offs, but they may only be 2BR.


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## kds4 (Aug 2, 2014)

Fasttr said:


> Something we all can agree on!!



Agreed. I can't tell you everything I've learned from others here on TUG. It has added real value in helping us maximize our ownership.


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## kds4 (Aug 2, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> I guess if I sum it up....:
> 
> 1 - best to rent
> 
> ...



I think you have the 3 basic options down, and perhaps renting is ultimately the best option for your family. Only you can say. Please let everyone know what you decide, and if you do decide to pursue a resale points purchase I would be happy to recommend someone to you that could be of assistance. I've worked with him, and so have others here on TUG. Feel free to send me a private message if you would like his contact information.

Good luck.


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## Beefnot (Aug 2, 2014)

Fasttr said:


> Good points, but if you are a pure renter and not an owner, you likely don't have access to AC's, Getaways, and XYZ's that you mentioned or the MOD rate that I mentioned in my prior post. Broadening GregT's thought a bit beyond the DC about ownership having intangible value , being an owner (whether its points or weeks) provides you some additional advantages over being a pure renter. Over time, all of these items add value that help to chip away at the initial purchase price cash outlay.



Correct. I should have pointed out that my comments were related to owning a resale week. 

If the cost of points ever declines to the value of <2x the highest implied weekly rental value of the underlying points purchase, that is when I might take a dive. One can dream...


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## ksheppard (Aug 2, 2014)

kds4 said:


> I think you have the 3 basic options down, and perhaps renting is ultimately the best option for your family. Only you can say. Please let everyone know what you decide, and if you do decide to pursue a resale points purchase I would be happy to recommend someone to you that could be of assistance. I've worked with him, and so have others here on TUG. Feel free to send me a private message if you would like his contact information.
> 
> Good luck.



Yes, I would like that information please however, I don't know how to send a private message. That way I will have it on file if need be.


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## ksheppard (Aug 2, 2014)

Beefnot;1657224
If the cost of points ever declines to the value of <2x the highest implied weekly rental value of the underlying points purchase said:
			
		

> So if the weekly highest rental is for example 3000 $ at the place we want to go, you would only buy if the ponts cost 1500 $???????


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## kds4 (Aug 2, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> Yes, I would like that information please however, I don't know how to send a private message. That way I will have it on file if need be.



I believe the ability to send private messages is limited to TUG members. There are many benefits besides just being able to exchange direct (private) messages between TUG members. If you believe you are gaining valuable information here, I would recommend going ahead and getting a membership by clicking the 'Join TUG' link at the top right corner of your screen in the red banner. Once you do and sign in to your account, you will see a Private Messages link below your user name in the upper right corner of the screen.


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## presley (Aug 2, 2014)

kds4 said:


> I believe the ability to send private messages is limited to TUG members. There are many benefits besides just being able to exchange direct (private) messages between TUG members. If you believe you are gaining valuable information here, I would recommend going ahead and getting a membership by clicking the 'Join TUG' link at the top right corner of your screen in the red banner. Once you do and sign in to your account, you will see a Private Messages link below your user name in the upper right corner of the screen.



I get messages from non-members.

To send a private message, click on the user name on the left of their post.  A menu will come up and click the send private message link.


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## ksheppard (Aug 2, 2014)

kds4 said:


> I believe the ability to send private messages is limited to TUG members. There are many benefits besides just being able to exchange direct (private) messages between TUG members. If you believe you are gaining valuable information here, I would recommend going ahead and getting a membership by clicking the 'Join TUG' link at the top right corner of your screen in the red banner. Once you do and sign in to your account, you will see a Private Messages link below your user name in the upper right corner of the screen.



I already am a member. You are right, I do see "private messages" in the top right corner. How do I send it to you?


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## ksheppard (Aug 2, 2014)

presley said:


> I get messages from non-members.
> 
> To send a private message, click on the user name on the left of their post.  A menu will come up and click the send private message link.



ok, perfect


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## kds4 (Aug 2, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> ok, perfect



I responded to your message. Hope the information is of benefit to you.


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## ksheppard (Aug 15, 2014)

After thou rough analysis, we have decided to forego buying points or weeks ans will concentrate on renting when we want to travel. Thank you very much to all that have given their insights and experience.


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## Docklander (Aug 15, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> After thou rough analysis, we have decided to forego buying points or weeks ans will concentrate on renting when we want to travel. Thank you very much to all that have given their insights and experience.



It's so nice to see/hear someone do their research, think things through, take advice and only then make a decision. There would be a lot more happy TS folk (and non TS folk!) if more people took your route. Good luck with your rentals and enjoy the great resorts.


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## ksheppard (Aug 15, 2014)

Docklander said:


> It's so nice to see/hear someone do their research, think things through, take advice and only then make a decision. There would be a lot more happy TS folk (and non TS folk!) if more people took your route. Good luck with your rentals and enjoy the great resorts.



Thank you.


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## Beefnot (Aug 15, 2014)

ksheppard said:


> So if the weekly highest rental is for example 3000 $ at the place we want to go, you would only buy if the ponts cost 1500 $???????


 
Just saw this. No, not divided, multiplied. I would pay ~$6k.




ksheppard said:


> After thou rough analysis, we have decided to forego buying points or weeks ans will concentrate on renting when we want to travel. Thank you very much to all that have given their insights and experience.


 
Good call. Get your feet wet renting and then revisit ownership at some future point. One has to do a whole lotta traveling to find that buying points is more economical than simply renting individual nights from points owners and/or renting full weeks.


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## Blueboyz79 (Aug 16, 2014)

I'm looking at a Marriot Ko Olina timeshare on the resale market. What does Week 49 Floating mean?

Do I need title insurance to purchase this property?

On eBay why does timeshare resale only want check, money order. I'm afraid if I give them a check I will be screwed


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