# [ 2010 ] Nissan Leaf - Electric Car



## Beaglemom3 (Jun 14, 2010)

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index#/leaf-electric-car/index 
I just reserved one (no obligation) for 2011 or 2012. 

Any thoughts on them ?

  There's a $99 fee to reserve. Have to do my due diligence before buying one. There is also a chat room through that link.

The MSRP is $32,700, but there is a $7500 federal tax credit and some states offer a rebate on the state level.

Let's hope it can take Boston driving !

Beaglemobile II is nickel and diming me to death despite Click & Clack's best efforts. It's just old. I found a gently used 2009 Benz wagon over the weekend and am having that looked over by my mechanic tonight.

Thanks !


----------



## ScoopKona (Jun 14, 2010)

We have the current iteration of the Nissan Altima Hybrid.

Good car. No complaints.

That being said, I wouldn't buy the Leaf until it's a few years old. Just because we never buy the first year of any new model. We don't want to beta-test auto designs.


----------



## scrapngen (Jun 14, 2010)

My husband reserved one as well. We've never owned an electric car, but they have already made an appointment to either put in the electrical conversion kit, or see if we are able to put it in?? It would be his commute car, so he's the one investigating - I read a little bit due to his interest. He kind of feels like you do. Would hate to get one of the first ones until there's a little more real life feedback. 

It does look promising, though. My trips are longer distances each day on mountain highways with the kids, so I'd be a little more skeptical/wary of how far it can go before recharging


----------



## John Cummings (Jun 14, 2010)

I would think that a Tesla electric car would be more your style.    

Super fast at 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and sharp looking. Tesla was designed by computer engineers in Silicon Valley, CA and has been around for about 4 or 5 years.

They are a little pricey but boy what a vehicle.

http://www.teslamotors.com/


----------



## Beaglemom3 (Jun 14, 2010)

ScoopLV said:


> We have the current iteration of the Nissan Altima Hybrid.
> 
> Good car. No complaints.
> 
> That being said, I wouldn't buy the Leaf until it's a few years old. Just because we never buy the first year of any new model. We don't want to beta-test auto designs.



I usually wait for a generation or two to go through their "growing pains", too.
Not sure why I'm not doing that in this case. Maybe it's because I'm tired of the 12 y.o. Volvo wagon that has seen its day, i.e., impatience.


----------



## Beaglemom3 (Jun 14, 2010)

John Cummings said:


> I would think that a Tesla electric car would be more your style.
> 
> Super fast at 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and sharp looking. Tesla was designed by computer engineers in Silicon Valley, CA and has been around for about 4 or 5 years.
> 
> ...



Just looked. _Very nice_ ! Not in the budget.

ETA: Have you driven or owned one ?


----------



## 3kids4me (Jun 14, 2010)

John Cummings said:


> They are a little pricey but boy what a vehicle.
> 
> http://www.teslamotors.com/



Wow, $100,000 for a car?  

So what is the real limitation to having an electric car?  Does it not go as fast as a gas powered car?  Or, does it take longer to pick up speed?  Or, can it only go a fairly small amount of miles before needing to be recharged and then recharging takes time?  (So, best for short commutes or city driving?)


----------



## Fern Modena (Jun 14, 2010)

I think it depends on how long an extension cord you have. :rofl:

At least that's what my ma used to say.



3kids4me said:


> So what is the real limitation to having an electric car?


----------



## John Cummings (Jun 14, 2010)

3kids4me said:


> Wow, $100,000 for a car?
> 
> So what is the real limitation to having an electric car?  Does it not go as fast as a gas powered car?  Or, does it take longer to pick up speed?  Or, can it only go a fairly small amount of miles before needing to be recharged and then recharging takes time?  (So, best for short commutes or city driving?)



If you look at the Tesla, you can see that acceleration is certainly not an issue as it is faster than a Chevrolet Corvette which is very quick. Driving range is a major issue though one of the Tesla models can go 300 miles. Vehicle size is an issue if you need a larger vehicle. One of the big deals with the Tesla are the batteries. They used laptop computer battery technology unlike the others. Of course cost is a major factor though that will come down as production goes up.

Tesla Motors has teamed uo with Toyota and are using the old GM/Toyota auto plant in Fremont, CA.


----------



## RedDogSD (Jun 14, 2010)

I would be more interested in a 100% electric car if it had a Gasoline or other fuel system as a back up.  Most Sailboats have outboard motors, just in case.  If I think I am only going 100 miles, or I think my battery is full enough, I do not want to get stuck.  Sure, I can charge it somewhere, but it takes 8 hours at 220V for a full charge, so it probably will take hours at 110V to get you back on the road.  I would rather kick on a generator that could charge up the battery using Fossil Fuels as a back up.

Of course, I live in Giant Freeway land where everything is far apart.  If I lived in a city where 100 miles is plenty, then I would feel differently.


----------



## beachsands (Jun 14, 2010)

I wonder what it costs to recharge this puppy? How long is the reasonable life expectancy? How long will it take to break even with someone buying a hybrid? Just a few thoughts

~Joel~


----------



## ScoopKona (Jun 14, 2010)

I bought my Nissan hybrid, one year old with 25K on the odometer for $19K.

Without "hyper-miling" or otherwise driving like a fool, I get 45mpg most of the year and 35mpg during the summer (air conditioning in Las Vegas kills my mileage).

Because the car automatically shuts off at red lights, etc., I'm getting a range of about 650 miles on a 14-gallon tank. (People should really Google "turn off engine at red lights" -- it's safe for most cars and would cut our oil consumption as a nation significantly.)

The car hasn't needed anything other than scheduled maintenance, so the costs involved are superior to normal gasoline engines.

So, I pay $40 every two weeks in gas -- $1,040 per year, plus about $200 in oil/filter changes and incidentals. 

The batteries are guaranteed until 2015. Assuming a battery failure then (and prices hovering around $3.50 a gallon for awhile), the total cost of the car will be about $3,800 per year -- or $0.25 per mile. That's for the car, gas, oil, filters, and a couple hundred in "incidentals" per year. Throw away the purchase price, and I'm paying nine cents a mile.

It doesn't get much cheaper than that.


----------



## John Cummings (Jun 14, 2010)

I wonder if the so called experts have considered the drain on the electricity for charging the vehicles. Right now it is not a consideration because there are so few electric cars. Jump ahead a few years where there may be thousands of electric vehicles being charged every night. In California, we are often using max capacity in the summer so how will the electricity grid handle the additional load of charging these thousands of vehicles each night.

I just thought I would throw this out as something to think about.


----------



## Elan (Jun 14, 2010)

John Cummings said:


> I wonder if the so called experts have considered the drain on the electricity for charging the vehicles. Right now it is not a consideration because there are so few electric cars. Jump ahead a few years where there may be thousands of electric vehicles being charged every night. In California, we are often using max capacity in the summer so how will the electricity grid handle the additional load of charging these thousands of vehicles each night.
> 
> I just thought I would throw this out as something to think about.



  This is often addressed in discussions regarding electric cars.  The consensus seems to think that since peak electricity demand is during the day when air conditioners are blasting and most businesses are active, and most car charging will be done at night, there won't be a problem.


----------



## laurac260 (Jun 15, 2010)

My Lexus hybrid gets the same gas mileage as my Sienna minivan.

It just looks better doing it.


----------



## Beaglemom3 (Jun 15, 2010)

Does anyone remember the Toyota Rav EV- 4 ?

I think it was in California about 10 years ago .


----------



## Blues (Jun 15, 2010)

Elan said:


> This is often addressed in discussions regarding electric cars.  The consensus seems to think that since peak electricity demand is during the day when air conditioners are blasting and most businesses are active, and most car charging will be done at night, there won't be a problem.



That's just for a start.  There's a lot of discussion in the industry about "smart grid" and its implications for electric vehicles.

Consider the future - smart meters are ubiquitous, and time of day usage rates are common.  As a consumer, you can recharge your car during low-cost, low-demand nighttime rates.  You can then drive to work, leave it plugged in, and program it to monitor peak energy rates, figure out how much excess capacity it has, and sell the energy back to the power company *at peak rates.*

The power utilities, on the other hand, can build a *lot* fewer expensive power plants, using millions of car batteries to even out the load.  They can also manage their base-power plant loads much more effectively via instantaneous re-pricing.

The result is a win-win.  Higher power-plant efficiencies from better utilization, lower capital costs, and the consumer can take advantage of price differences, becoming an armchair entrepreneur.

*That's* the vision of the future that the "smart grid" folks are pushing.  Whether and how long it takes to get there is an open question.  But far from being an extra drain on the energy infrastructure, it's being pushed as a huge boon.

HTH,
Bob


----------



## Elan (Jun 15, 2010)

Blues said:


> That's just for a start.  There's a lot of discussion in the industry about "smart grid" and its implications for electric vehicles.
> 
> Consider the future - smart meters are ubiquitous, and time of day usage rates are common.  As a consumer, you can recharge your car during low-cost, low-demand nighttime rates.  You can then drive to work, leave it plugged in, and program it to monitor peak energy rates, figure out how much excess capacity it has, and sell the energy back to the power company *at peak rates.*
> 
> ...



  I was actually going to add a post about the modernizing of our ancient power grid to a smart grid, but I didn't want to take the discussion too far off of electric cars.


----------



## Beaglemom3 (Jun 15, 2010)

Elan said:


> I was actually going to add a post about the modernizing of our ancient power grid to a smart grid, but I didn't want to take the discussion too far off of electric cars.



Jim, 
  As the OP, I say, please do. It would add to the worldview of the electric car thread.

  In fact, I was going to mention a related stock that folks are watching, but that might be viewed as soliciting/advertising and I could see why.

  B.


----------



## swift (Jun 16, 2010)

The problem is they have a 100 mile limitation. If you are someone that doesn't leave your home town much I guess that works. 

range –100 miles/charge based upon US EPA LA4 City cycle2


----------



## Beaglemom3 (Jun 16, 2010)

The questions I see on this thread are mine, too. So, I am going to go on Leaf's website to see the FAQs and the Chat.

I'm wondering if you can carry an extra charged battery would that be a workable solution. Also, have to wonder if there won't be some sort of system of "stations" where you drop off your battery to exchange for a new one ? Sort of like propane tanks for your grill ?

I mentioned to someone that it could/would cut emissions and he said to me, that the emissions are at the power plant. True, but with gasoline cars, aren't there double emissions; one at the refinery and one from the vehicle ?

The potential here is interesting.


----------



## Elan (Jun 16, 2010)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Jim,
> As the OP, I say, please do. It would add to the worldview of the electric car thread.
> 
> In fact, I was going to mention a related stock that folks are watching, but that might be viewed as soliciting/advertising and I could see why.
> ...



  Here's a decent set of articles on EV's and their impact on the grid:

http://www.smartgridnews.com/artman...-Needs-to-Plan-for-Plug-in-Vehicles-1812.html


----------



## UWSurfer (Jul 22, 2014)

Updating an old thread, we ended up leasing a Leaf a few weeks ago and it's a lot of fun.  It drives and behaves like any other car you'd want    It's extremely quiet, fairly comfortable and large compared to other hatchbacks in the EV market now.   It's just a short range car (75 - 90 miles per charge) depending on how you drive.  

We test drove several cars and absolutely loved the 2015 Toyota RAV-4 EV (yes it's back), a car made in partnership with Tesla, but at $55K it wasn't something we could really justify.  

The reason we went for the leaf is my wife has a long commute driving 43 miles one way in LA traffic and wants to be able to drive solo in the carpool lane.  The current stickers you can get to do this require you drive an alternate fuel car (electric, natural gas or hydrogen) which lead us toward EV's.   She's been driving a Camary which gets 30 MPG.  The leaf's lease payment is less than what we paid for gasoline for the month of June.   The electric MPG equivalent of the leaf is (eMPG = 115)

That said we ended up installing two 240 VAC chargers; one at the house and one at my wife's work.  My wife works for a company which is largely owned by her sister who was willing to install it if we bought it.   She plugs in when she arrives at work to charge it full and then plugs it in at home to charge overnight.  I drove it locally to and from work for a little over a week and I could go several days between charges.   There's also a large and developing public charging  network out here with some cities and business offering use of their chargers for free!   The car also includes a trickle charger which plugs into a standard 110 V outlet.

We've kept the Camary for longer distance driving and sold our family mini-van which covered the down payment.   The leaf is full of technology and took a bit of getting used to but it's pretty cool starting out the day with a full tank of electrons and simply unplugging to get on your way.   We should all have our own gas pumps at home!  Nissan also warranties the battery for 10 years to hold at least 75% of it' original charging capacity.   

For those keeping track, we will be over mileage per the lease terms (36 months) but can purchase the car at the end of the term for $12,500 and there won't be excess mileage charges provide we buy it.    This is the first new car we've acquired in 25 years, sticking to used ones in the past and frankly we're having a ball with it.


----------



## Beaglemom3 (Jul 22, 2014)

Fast forward................Tesla has come up with a more affordable option recently as has Mercedes. Beaglemobile III is starting to age, so I am reopening the book on buying an electric car.


----------



## laurac260 (Jul 22, 2014)

UWSurfer said:


> Updating an old thread, we ended up leasing a Leaf a few weeks ago and it's a lot of fun.  It drives and behaves like any other car you'd want    It's extremely quiet, fairly comfortable and large compared to other hatchbacks in the EV market now.   It's just a short range car (75 - 90 miles per charge) depending on how you drive.
> 
> We test drove several cars and absolutely loved the 2015 Toyota RAV-4 EV (yes it's back), a car made in partnership with Tesla, but at $55K it wasn't something we could really justify.
> 
> ...



Great that your car is clean now.  What is the energy source where you charge?


----------



## dougp26364 (Jul 22, 2014)

I do not own an electric car but have been watching as we've developed from hybrid to full electric, waiting until technology catches up with wants and curious about how an all electrical car country would produce the energy necessary to run all those cars.

So here's my opinion at this time:

They're still a fad but, they're a fad that's developing well. Tesla appears to have taken a proactive stance by setting up charging stations. There's even a few in KS now, which is impressive. 

I worry about the cost of charging them at home and the cost of making necessary electrical changes. It doesn't appear it's as easy as just plugging them into a standard wall outlet. There was a post I read on TUG from someone in Hawaii (I think) who had looked at it. When all was said and done it was going to be considerably more expensive to buy the electricity than to purchase gas. Thus he choose to stick with more traditional transportation.

As to the future I wonder how or where the country will produce all the electricity needed to run a city full of electric cars. We already have fights over building coal burning plants vs nuclear power plants. We've been encourage to use LESS electricity in our homes. Even with lighting we're encourage to use CFL's or LED lights. Over the years I've made changes to our home to use less gas/electricity BUT, my fuel bills have remained essentially unchanged.

Then there's disposal. What do they plan on doing with all those batteries when they're used up and where will they put them? How will that affect the trade in or resale value of the car? What alterations will be necessary to our scrap yards when these cars with large batteries are used up?

I think there's going to have to be a major shift in how electricity is produced in this country before electric cars become mainstream, if they ever become mainstream. Until them I look at them as an expensive toy and/or status symbol.


----------



## Blues (Jul 22, 2014)

dougp26364 said:


> I think there's going to have to be a major shift in how electricity is produced in this country before electric cars become mainstream, if they ever become mainstream. Until them I look at them as an expensive toy and/or status symbol.



Thoughtful comments, Doug.  There's a lot of thought going into these very issues, and have been for quite a few years.  About 2 years ago I went to an IEEE conference, where this issue was the subject of one of the talks.  The speaker waxed eloquent on the subject for over an hour.  The vision is of the future electricity grid, dubbed the Smart Grid, to make much more efficient use of our infrastructure.

You know, of course, about time-of-use metering for electricity.  The reason the power companies do this is because peak demand, from about 2pm to 7pm or so, requires several times the capacity of off-peak times, such as overnight.  It's very expensive to build sufficient capacity on the power grid to serve peak demand.

So imagine this, sometime in the future.  You've charged your EV overnight at off-peak rates; say, for example 10 cents/KWH.  You're not going anywhere today, but you leave your car plugged in.  It's talking to the smart grid, watching electric rates.  You've programmed it to bypass the 20 cent rates in the morning, and at 2pm, it sees that the rate is now 30 cents.  Since you're not going anywhere (and have told your car that), it *sells* the electricity back to the grid at 30 cents/KWH.  It then recharges again that night at 10 cents.  Do that regularly, and you've got a nice little source of income.

Now multiply that by 10s or 100s of millions of cars, and you see the future of the power grid.  We'll be able to meet increasing electricity demand with *less* infrastructure.  And you now have a much bigger incentive to buy an EV.

Boone Pickens has put a lot of money into natural gas, advocating LNG vehicles, saving oil for other needed infrastructure.  Smart Grid is similar, but in this scenario, the natural gas can be used to fuel power plants which then feed EVs, again saving expensive oil for things like lubricants, plastics, etc.

Smart Grid is the subject of huge R&D efforts and money.  The protocols and infrastructure are being designed now, though it will take many years before the above scenarios are common.  But a lot of people are going to make a lot of money when that day arrives.

-Bob


----------



## Blues (Jul 22, 2014)

dougp26364 said:


> Then there's disposal. What do they plan on doing with all those batteries when they're used up and where will they put them? How will that affect the trade in or resale value of the car? What alterations will be necessary to our scrap yards when these cars with large batteries are used up?



Recycling.  I know our current recycling efforts can be ineffective.  But there's very little value in paper and plastics; a little more in aluminum.  But lithium is *very* expensive.  No one is going to pass up the value they'll get out of their old lithium batteries.  And there will be a lot of recycling stations that will make a lot of money out of reprocessing them.

-Bob


----------



## UWSurfer (Jul 22, 2014)

laurac260 said:


> Great that your car is clean now.  What is the energy source where you charge?



We're in Los Angeles which is primarily Natural Gas & hydro electric generation.   The utilities here owned some coal powered plants out of state but have been divesting themselves of these due to some pressure by state and local politicians.

Local government here including the schools and colleges have been installing quite a bit of solar generation in their parking lots and structures which make a dent.  It's  sunny here much of the time with peak grid demand when it gets hot (& sunny) here so that is complimentary.    Some put solar on their home roofs and sell the power back and as noted charge at night.  We don't have solar and probably won't until the house is paid off and we put on a new roof, but we are shifting our electrical usage so that the car charges at night.   Also switched the pool motor to come on overnight and generally delay the dish washer & sometimes the laundry with the machines built in delay timers to run later as a trial run to see if we can benefit from the "time of day" (TOD) usage rate schedules.

The power company installed smart meters in our area about a year ago so they can do this from a single meter at the house.  We could have opted for a second service just for the car but I didn't want to go to that expense.  Here's a link that outlines the various rates SoCal Edison is offering for homes right now.  http://on.sce.com/1A29UTT

The stinger is the TOD plan between 10a - 6p peak usage rate is steep.   I figured we'd run it for a month at the existing residential rates, time shifting for purposes of establishing a realistic TOD usage for us and seeing how the numbers work out.  Initial estimates have that plan saving us $100/month but I want to work it out with real numbers before making the switch.

I think worrying about EVERYBODY switching to electric and the demand on the grid is a bit premature & not a reason not to do it.   In our case it really was about accessing a faster route to work for less money.   The faster route access is the incentive government is offering for driving a zero emission vehicle.    I also like the idea of no longer needing to buy gas, oil, coolant, tuneups, oil changes....   Admittedly though it's an experiment for us which so far is working out.


----------



## UWSurfer (Jul 22, 2014)

Blues said:


> Recycling.  I know our current recycling efforts can be ineffective.  But there's very little value in paper and plastics; a little more in aluminum.  But lithium is *very* expensive.  No one is going to pass up the value they'll get out of their old lithium batteries.  And there will be a lot of recycling stations that will make a lot of money out of reprocessing them.
> 
> -Bob



You can ask the same question of just about every other consumable product we buy, but somehow we generally don't. 

I don't know what the plan is, but Nissan announced recently that the replacement battery package for the leaf is $6500, plus a $1000 core credit for the batteries being removed netting out to $5500.   This in addition to the 10 year warranty on the batteries in the new car.


----------



## easyrider (Jul 22, 2014)

What most people never hear is that electric cars are environmentally damaging. More so than a fuel efficient gas car or my suv, imo. 

The problem I see in using an automotive battery to feed the power grid is the battery would be cycling through charging and discharging. This would shorten the life of the battery. 

Automotive lithium ion batteries at 70% power capacity are junk. They do go to recycler but most of the battery is incinerated. It is cost prohibitive to recycle these batteries so manufacturers of these batteries don't really used recycled parts.  

Hydrogen fuel is the way to power vehicles, imo. 



http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/unclean-at-any-speed/



> The National Academies’ assessment didn’t ignore those difficult-to-measure realities. It drew together the effects of vehicle construction, fuel extraction, refining, emissions, and other factors. In a gut punch to electric-car advocates, it concluded that the vehicles’ lifetime health and environmental damages (excluding long-term climatic effects) are actually greater than those of gasoline-powered cars. Indeed, the study found that an electric car is likely worse than a car fueled exclusively by gasoline derived from Canadian tar sands!



Bill


----------



## UWSurfer (Jul 22, 2014)

For a glimpse of charging station locations, this website is very helpful. 

http://www.plugshare.com/

Also understanding the various charger types is important.

Level 1 = Trickle charger that is included with the leaf.  Runs on standard 110 V home outlet.  Takes a long time (18 hours) to charge the car from near empty.

Level 2 = The current "standard" charger most public systems have now standardized on with a J1772 plug which mates with the car.  It takes 3 - 6 hours to charge from near empty depending on the make & capacity of the charger.

CHAdeMO DCFC - Another "standard" from Europe (I think) which Nissan is using for a "rapid" charge station.   Charges to 85% capacity from near empty in under 30 minutes.

Tesla - A proprietary standard which presently only works with Tesla cars.

The public charging stations are effectively the EV's gas stations in the event you over estimate you range and need filling up.  

Also worth noting is the charger is actually contained IN THE CAR.  What we incorrectly refer to as chargers are EVSE (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment) which interfaces with the in-car charger.  The two devices communicate and negotiate as to what can be delivered with the EVSE supplying what the car charger calls for up to it's limits.


----------



## SMHarman (Jul 22, 2014)

laurac260 said:


> Great that your car is clean now.  What is the energy source where you charge?


It's a lot easier to scrub one electricity power station than 1m tailpipes.


----------



## Chrispee (Jul 22, 2014)

easyrider said:


> What most people never hear is that electric cars are environmentally damaging. More so than a fuel efficient gas car or my suv, imo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'd be interested to see your stats to back up this statement?


----------



## UWSurfer (Jul 22, 2014)

Chrispee said:


> I'd be interested to see your stats to back up this statement?



While the author of the article is not exactly objective, his point that there are polluting aspects to manufacturing of electric vehicles is worth noting.  Whether it's actually worse is highly subjective.

As one who routinely rides a bike to work, I do agree with his statement near the end of the article: 

"Perhaps we should look beyond the shiny gadgets now being offered and revisit some less sexy but potent options—smog reduction, bike lanes, energy taxes, and land-use changes to start."


----------



## buzglyd (Jul 22, 2014)

I'm using a Yamaha Vino scooter for my local errand running. 75 mpg and it "recharges" in about 2 minutes for $4 at any gas station in town.

What we never see mentioned in all the electric vehicle hoopla (I've considered a Leaf) is all the nasty compounds used to make batteries.

Lithium needs to be mined. Imagine all the mining we'd have to do if everyone was driving EVs.

We see eco groups agitating about Big Oil! Soon it will be Big Mining! and no wars for Lithium!

I'm not against the EV market but it's such a niche right now that people really haven't considered the cost to the grid and the environment if it ever goes mainstream.


----------



## Ken555 (Jul 22, 2014)

I've heard great things about the Leaf, though they don't really appeal to me. I just want a Tesla. 


Sent from my iPad


----------



## easyrider (Jul 22, 2014)

Chrispee said:


> I'd be interested to see your stats to back up this statement?



1. China is the largest supplier of lithium and other rare earth metals used to manufacture lithium ion batteries. The reason they are the largest supplier is because they have the best price. The reason they have the best price is due to the lenient environmental regulations in China. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/26/business/global/26rare.html?_r=0

2. Where does the electricity come from to charge the battery ? Electricity generated by diesel, coal and solar leaves a carbon footprint. 

3. No one is really recycling the batteries. There is only one facility that is licenced to recycle automotive lithium ion batteries in the USA. They are not able to compete in the free market because of the cheaper and more uniform  mineral products that come from China. They pretty much incinerate most of the battery. Because they can not compete with China they are subsidized by the tax payers.

So these batteries are cost prohibitive to most consumers and have a large carbon footprint. They are incentivized by the government from start to finish. If they weren't, no one would buy them.

The only alternative fuel that makes any sense is hydrogen, imo.

Bill


----------



## buzglyd (Jul 22, 2014)

Don't forget, when you pull into a gas station and there are three cars in front of you, you know you might sit 20 minutes for your turn. 

3 cars in front of you at the charging station will be hours.


----------



## UWSurfer (Jul 23, 2014)

buzglyd said:


> Don't forget, when you pull into a gas station and there are three cars in front of you, you know you might sit 20 minutes for your turn.
> 
> 3 cars in front of you at the charging station will be hours.



That's why we have a EVSE at home, so we don't need to use an outside charging station most of the time.  Plug it in, go to bed, full charge in the morning.


----------



## Clemson Fan (Jul 23, 2014)

SMHarman said:


> It's a lot easier to scrub one electricity power station than 1m tailpipes.



That's totally dependent on how that electricity power station generates their electricity.

Here in Hawaii, how do you think we generate the vast majority of our electricity?  Answer: We burn coal.  Brilliant, isn't it?  I keep telling people I'm a proponent of nuclear and I get a lot of cross eyed looks and replies that it wouldn't be wise to do that on a relatively small island.  Of course they don't have any reply when I inform them that we constantly have about 20 nuclear reactors sitting in Pearl Harbor at any one time.

Our electricity rates in Hawaii are 35 cents per kWh and there aren't any different TOD rates.  With those rates I don't think a EV would make much sense although admittedly I haven't done the math.


----------



## Ken555 (Jul 23, 2014)

Clemson Fan said:


> Our electricity rates in Hawaii are 35 cents per kWh and there aren't any different TOD rates.  With those rates I don't think a EV would make much sense although admittedly I haven't done the math.




http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-true-cost-of-powering-an-electric-car.html



> Because of the variety of utility rates in the U.S., a 2013 Nissan Leaf that's a bargain to drive at average electricity rates in Washington (approximately $25 for 1,000 miles) is pricey in Hawaii, where those 1,000 miles would cost about $107. A conventional car would have to be getting 140 mpg to make that trip for the same money in Washington, while in Hawaii, a 38.5-mpg gasoline vehicle would do the trick.




Sent from my iPad


----------



## dougp26364 (Jul 23, 2014)

Blues said:


> Thoughtful comments, Doug.  There's a lot of thought going into these very issues, and have been for quite a few years.  About 2 years ago I went to an IEEE conference, where this issue was the subject of one of the talks.  The speaker waxed eloquent on the subject for over an hour.  The vision is of the future electricity grid, dubbed the Smart Grid, to make much more efficient use of our infrastructure.
> 
> You know, of course, about time-of-use metering for electricity.  The reason the power companies do this is because peak demand, from about 2pm to 7pm or so, requires several times the capacity of off-peak times, such as overnight.  It's very expensive to build sufficient capacity on the power grid to serve peak demand.
> 
> ...



Sounds great in theory but, it sounds much like the issue of utopian thinkers when it came to books being available in electronic form. They thought it would be fantastic if all books were scanned into the system and any book could be accessed by anyone, anywhere, anytime. What a wonderful world it would be if great thought could be had just by accessing cyberspace, download a book and read it.

The problem cropped up very soon after the thought sprang from the speakers mouth. Who, exactly, will write a book that can be downloaded for free from cyberspace. free access/easy access is what the speaker was referring too when speaking of the great knowledge we'd all have if we had unlimited access to all written words. It's a problem they're still fighting about today.

What electric company is going to be the first to jump on a system where the majority of their users will eventually buy electricity from them at 10 cents a KWH and then sell it back to them at 30 cents a KWH. It won't happen. Instead they'll fight it, refuse it or go to a flat/average rate for all hours. Of course there will be a cross over to those powering their homes with solar power, who also sell back to the grid.

Then there is the system itself. It must be one system, not just in this country but around the world. We have enough issues traveling from one system to another with hair dryers. Imagine the more complex issues with automobiles. Sure we can leave it as it is with different cars built specifically for different systems, much like right or left hand driving cars, but think of the added expense.

So, if electric companies aren't overly thrilled about a system which allows electricity to flow back in as well as out, who will build the system? If your answer is the government, much like they did the highway system, then I'll hold the highway system and how well it's been maintained up as an example of why that's not a good idea.

And of course we still haven't touched on battery disposal, which I'm assuming will be toxic. 

Now I'm not saying it will be impossible, just that as the human race stands now, improbable, at least in my lifetime. Eventually something MUST be done and this appears to be the most viable technology of our time. That's not to say some other form of energy won't be more attractive in the future, replacing electricity entirely or at least altering how it's produced. It's just that right now, I'm not exactly seeing this as the future of automobile travel.

Of course I'm typing this from a portable laptop, upon which I can keep a reasonable library of books and upon which my entire electronic music collection, which has now surpassed my vinyl record collection, is stored. In the care I'm driving at this moment (rental car) I can listen to clear "radio" stations beamed down from satellites in outer space and, if that's not good enough, pop in a CD and listen to that just like an album on a phonograph. I even have a camera which shows me what's behind the car as I'm backing up. All of that was possible but improbably during my fathers lifetime, yet it has come to pass. I still remember people saying that home computing would NEVER take off. 

Now, having said all of this, last night there was an add for a 3 year leas for a Nissan Leaf for $249/month with $1,999 due at signing. I'm intrigued but, it would be in addition to our two traditional vehicles or, it would be, a toy.


----------



## dougp26364 (Jul 23, 2014)

Blues said:


> Recycling.  I know our current recycling efforts can be ineffective.  But there's very little value in paper and plastics; a little more in aluminum.  But lithium is *very* expensive.  No one is going to pass up the value they'll get out of their old lithium batteries.  And there will be a lot of recycling stations that will make a lot of money out of reprocessing them.
> 
> -Bob



Addresses a problem I reiterated in my above post. It will be interesting to see if it's financially viable. We don't recycle at home because there's an additional monthly charge from our trash service. Recycling, assuming it's possible with these batteries, would, I assume, either be built into the cost of the car, either as residual value at the end of it's life or as an added expense such as what's seen with leases when you drive to many miles.


----------



## dougp26364 (Jul 23, 2014)

Thank you Ken555 for finding the Hawaiian reference I recalled.


----------



## isisdave (Jul 23, 2014)

>>What electric company is going to be the first to jump on a system where the majority of their users will eventually buy electricity from them at 10 cents a KWH and then sell it back to them at 30 cents a KWH. It won't happen. Instead they'll fight it, refuse it or go to a flat/average rate for all hours. Of course there will be a cross over to those powering their homes with solar power, who also sell back to the grid.<<

They're doing this now, and the reason is that it's much cheaper than building a new power station.  And of course, they buy the energy at maybe 22 cents and resell it for 30 cents.  There's a real push in California to have solar on literally millions of homes. When battery technology becomes a lot cheaper and more efficient, ad particularly if the environmental aspects are better than the alternatives, we'll be storing it in our individual battery bunkers.


----------



## VegasBella (Jul 23, 2014)

*Nissan Leaf - Electric Car*



Blues said:


> there's very little value in paper and plastics; a little more in aluminum.



Just want to point out that recycling aluminum is actually very cost effective. It costs the same amount or more to mine aluminum as it does to recycle it. There's no actual extra expense to recycling aluminum. There may be service fees from your trash collector if you live in an area that's not politically forward-thinking and subsidizing recycling pickup but that's not actually part of the true cost of recycling aluminum.
http://www.aluminum.org/sustainability/aluminum-recycling


----------



## VegasBella (Jul 23, 2014)

dougp26364 said:


> Sounds great in theory but, it sounds much like the issue of utopian thinkers when it came to books being available in electronic form. They thought it would be fantastic if all books were scanned into the system and any book could be accessed by anyone, anywhere, anytime. What a wonderful world it would be if great thought could be had just by accessing cyberspace, download a book and read it.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem cropped up very soon after the thought sprang from the speakers mouth. Who, exactly, will write a book that can be downloaded for free from cyberspace. free access/easy access is what the speaker was referring too when speaking of the great knowledge we'd all have if we had unlimited access to all written words. It's a problem they're still fighting about today.



Yeah, riiiiiight. No one writes anymore. All authors are on strike. And no one ever writes any content without getting paid.


----------



## Maple_Leaf (Jul 23, 2014)

*Electric cars in Toronto*

Consumer Reports says that an electric car costs about $0.03/mile for electricity at $0.11/kWh.  We have time-of-use metering in Toronto and our off-peak summer rate is $0.075/kWh, so a Leaf would cost $0.02/mile for electricity.  Can anyone commute cheaper than that?  I doubt it with these gas prices.


----------



## Passepartout (Jul 23, 2014)

Meanwhile, back to cars. I'd kind of like a full electric runabout for errands and going about town, but our distances between communities is too great to be practical for an 'only car'.

I am enjoying pretty much best of both worlds with our '14 Prius. The current tank is showing 59.5 mpg after some 250 miles and is still above half full. No necessity of finding a current bush to plug it in to. The new one easily gets 10-20% better economy that the '05 it replaced, in a bigger and more powerful car. Win-win.

Jim


----------



## UWSurfer (Jul 23, 2014)

I noted when I re-ignited this thread that the leaf has quite a bit of technology built in, with metrics displayed on how it's doing.  Presently we're getting 3.3 miles per KWH.   Looking at this from a straight fuel cost vantage, using the best TOD rate it costs about 3 cents a mile in energy to drive.    Of course you have to add in taxes & delivery surchages which probably brings it closer to 6 cents a mile.

My wife is driving about 450 miles a week in it @ 6 cents a mile = $27 in energy cost.  

The gasoline powered camary this replaces got around 28 mpg & gas is around $4/gallon here right now which works out to to a little more than $64 in energy cost.


----------



## Clemson Fan (Jul 23, 2014)

dougp26364 said:


> What electric company is going to be the first to jump on a system where the majority of their users will eventually buy electricity from them at 10 cents a KWH and then sell it back to them at 30 cents a KWH. It won't happen. Instead they'll fight it, refuse it or go to a flat/average rate for all hours. Of course there will be a cross over to those powering their homes with solar power, who also sell back to the grid.



My thoughts exactly!

Here in Hawaii we're actually going through a real world example of an electric company that isn't playing nice and is not thrilled about their decreasing revenue stream with the solar revolution.  Due to the 65% state and federal tax credits and our high electric rates of .37cents/kwh and our ideal environment (sun, sun, sun), solar really took off here in Hawaii.  I installed a 5KW system on my home about 3 years ago.  Well, last fall the Hawaiian Electric Company (HECO) put a stop to most of it.  They came up with these "zones" that they said were "oversaturated" and they said that no more systems could be installed in those zones until a further "study" was performed.  Of course HECO never set a timetable for this "study" to be performed and it's now 10 months after they announced this new policy and we still don't have any timetable for this "study".  Of course most of the residential areas are in these "oversaturated" zones.

In order for someone's installed PV system to work, HECO needs to come out and replace your meter with these net energy meters with the ability to turn backwards when your system is sending energy back to the grid.  Now with this new "oversaturation policy", HECO refuses to come out and install these necessary meters in these "oversaturation" zones until this nebulous "study" is eventually done.  There are literally thousands of people who've had systems installed that cannot turn them on because HECO refuses to connect them.  My son's piano teacher is in this group and she's had a system sitting on her roof since October of last year that's still not connected and she has no idea when it will ever be connected.

Unfortunately, our politicians here in the state are weak and they've gone along with this garbage that HECO put out that a "study" needed to be done.  I actually wrote a letter to all of my local politicians about this issue and most of them replied and in their replies it was like they just cut and pasted HECO's public statement.  I'm sure that HECO being a major donator to our local politicians has nothing to do with their weak stance. 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-solar-boom-so-successfull-its-been-halted/


----------



## laurac260 (Jul 23, 2014)

Clemson Fan said:


> My thoughts exactly!
> 
> Here in Hawaii we're actually going through a real world example of an electric company that isn't playing nice and is not thrilled about their decreasing revenue stream with the solar revolution.  Due to the 65% state and federal tax credits and our high electric rates of .37cents/kwh and our ideal environment (sun, sun, sun), solar really took off here in Hawaii.  I installed a 5KW system on my home about 3 years ago.  Well, last fall the Hawaiian Electric Company (HECO) put a stop to most of it.  They came up with these "zones" that they said were "oversaturated" and they said that no more systems could be installed in those zones until a further "study" was performed.  Of course HECO never set a timetable for this "study" to be performed and it's now 10 months after they announced this new policy and we still don't have any timetable for this "study".  Of course most of the residential areas are in these "oversaturated" zones.
> 
> ...



Saturation zones, huh?  Well that explains everything.  I wondered why it's been so chilly and non-sunshiny here in the Midwest lately.  Hawaii has gone and sucked all of the sunshine out of the sky.:rofl:


----------



## ChrisandBeth (Jul 23, 2014)

What has this done to the electric bill at home or the office?
Any way to calculate the miles per kilowatt hour?

Electricity rates vary widely and I'd love to know the cost of the "fuel"


----------



## Passepartout (Jul 23, 2014)

ChrisandBeth said:


> What has this done to the electric bill at home or the office?
> Any way to calculate the miles per kilowatt hour?
> 
> Electricity rates vary widely and I'd love to know the cost of the "fuel"



Up in #51, UW says he's getting 3.3 mi/KWH (feel free to convert to km). Our electric rate (hydro) is between 7.5 and 8.5 cents per KW. So that would make for very affordable transport. At Hawaii's nearly $.40, not so much.


----------



## vacationhopeful (Jul 23, 2014)

I have free electric.  Of course, I would have to temper my summer chill and my winter roasting, to balance out the free driving electric if I got a Leaf.

Plus, Kohl's store near me, has 2 FREE charging stations.


----------



## Passepartout (Jul 23, 2014)

Using the 'fuel cost per mile' from above, our Prius burning $3.70 gas @ 50 mpg, is costing just under $.075 per mile (7.5¢). No effect on the power bill and no range restrictions and no hunting for or waiting on a charging station.

Jim


----------



## Ken555 (Jul 23, 2014)

Passepartout said:


> Using the 'fuel cost per mile' from above, our Prius burning $3.70 gas @ 50 mpg, is costing just under $.075 per mile (7.5¢). No effect on the power bill and no range restrictions and no hunting for or waiting on a charging station.
> 
> 
> 
> Jim




I don't think anyone is advocating doing away with hybrids. I think they're great. But, I like the concept of electric more for various reasons not least is the lack of dependence on oil. I know this is a simplistic statement and that the energy needs to come from somewhere. FWIW, I would rather drive a hybrid than a gas only car, but when I last tested hybrids I was very disappointed. I'm personally waiting for the smaller and more reasonably priced Tesla in the hope that it makes a lot of sense to buy. Alternatively, I could see myself buying another EV for local use (fwiw, I only drive ~8k per year so there's a financial incentive for me to just stick with my existing gas powered car, but not all decisions are financially based).


Sent from my iPad


----------



## Passepartout (Jul 23, 2014)

Ken555 said:


> I don't think anyone is advocating doing away with hybrids. I think they're great.



There is a time/place for each application. Hell, I drive a full size pickup that regularly pulls a 10,000 lb trailer to places in the boonies. No electric or hybrid is going to do that.

My MAJOR beef was when I drove professionally, during 'rush hour' the gigantic number of single occupants creeping along the freeways in their Suburbans. This is the behavior I'd like to change like smoking in public places! Make solo commuting in gashogs socially unacceptable.

Jim


----------



## Beaglemom3 (Jul 23, 2014)

Interesting link on super charging station locations:

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger


----------



## dougp26364 (Jul 23, 2014)

Passepartout said:


> Using the 'fuel cost per mile' from above, our Prius burning $3.70 gas @ 50 mpg, is costing just under $.075 per mile (7.5¢). No effect on the power bill and no range restrictions and no hunting for or waiting on a charging station.
> 
> Jim



Which brings me  back to why this would be nothing more than an expensive toy for me. I like the idea, I just think there's still a lot of gaps that will need to be filled in. I wonder when the idea of a national power grid and national power company will be put forth?


----------



## dougp26364 (Jul 23, 2014)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Interesting link on super charging station locations:
> 
> http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger



Way back when, the owner of Stucky's placed his stores in relatively odd spots along the highway, often quite a distance from towns. He placed them there, as I recall, by driving along highways and, when he felt the need to stop for a break, that's where he built a new store.

Of course Stucky's are for all intents and purposes long gone. I don't recall seeing an open Stucky's or Nickerson Farms in several years. I wonder if these charging stations and a 20 minute wait for a recharge might reinvent the modern day Stucky's and Nickerson Farms?


----------



## Passepartout (Jul 23, 2014)

dougp26364 said:


> Which brings me  back to why this would be nothing more than an expensive toy for me. I like the idea, I just think there's still a lot of gaps that will need to be filled in. I wonder when the idea of a national power grid and national power company will be put forth?



Never, EVER gonna happen in my lifetime. Too many feifdoms of 'my hydro power costs less than your coal or nucular' ,or your nucular waste creates more problems than my dams that are filling with sediment and restricting fish migration. And both of the above are trumped by alcohol made from animal feed, of a finite source of natural gas.

There will NEVER be a National Power Source.


----------



## dougp26364 (Jul 23, 2014)

Passepartout said:


> Never, EVER gonna happen in my lifetime. Too many feifdoms of 'my hydro power costs less than your coal or nucular' ,or your nucular waste creates more problems than my dams that are filling with sediment and restricting fish migration. And both of the above are trumped by alcohol made from animal feed, of a finite source of natural gas.
> 
> There will NEVER be a National Power Source.



Probably not in our lifetime but, if we remain on the course we're on, you just know this is going to be brought up. BTW, we need to tread lightly and stay away from making this political.


----------

