# Disappointed with Wyndham Club Access



## winnipiseogee (Dec 15, 2012)

I've been pleased with some of the Wyndham properties we have traded into so I decided to buy some Wyndham points (resale of course).  Given that we like to stay at any of the Newport RI Wyndhams as well as Smuggs I decided to just buy some Club Access points.  

I was all excited when I first got my membership package today but...

Now that I have spent a few hours on the Wyndham website it seems like the availability isn't much better than through RCI but the cost per night works out to be 2x to 3x what I would pay booking through RCI.  

Pretty stinking disappointed.  I guess I should be glad I only bought a 126k point package but without being able to combine points year over year (which is what RCI allows) I'm not going to be able to book much of anything!

Oh well... Live and learn!


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## winnipiseogee (Dec 15, 2012)

Oh yeah- looks like MF are also up almost 10% year over year if I believe what CJ said about MF last year.


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## MFT (Dec 15, 2012)

Can't help you this year, but you can always pool your points prior to your next round of MF.  This way, you have 3 years to use them, and can combine with next years points.  But it has to be done prior to the start of your next MF cycle.  
I've stayed at Smuggs (condos very, some are very nice, some are so/so).  Check through RCI points, and see what is available that way.  I've sort of noticed how RCI works out to be just about 40K points less per week, but I think that's because when you add in the RCI exchange fee, it works out about the same cost per week if you just used your Wyndham points.

Smuggs is tough to get into during peak season, so if you want a ski week this coming winter, you'll be disappointed.  Remember, Wyndham basically only picked up the remaining inventory, so lots of the inventory is still privately owned, or still part of the Smuggs system.  

BTW: Both times we stayed at Smuggs was through RCI (even this past Thanksgiving week).


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## winnipiseogee (Dec 15, 2012)

Thanks - I forgot to take into account the booking fee RCI charges.  Guess that makes it a bit better.  How much is it to pool points?

Thanks!


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## 55plus (Dec 15, 2012)

winnipiseogee said:


> Thanks - I forgot to take into account the booking fee RCI charges.  Guess that makes it a bit better.  How much is it to pool points?
> 
> Thanks!



Wyndham charges $39 to pool points. I'm sure that will go up like all other Wyndham fees (guest certificates fees, ownership transfer fees, etc.).


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## markb53 (Dec 15, 2012)

winnipiseogee said:


> Thanks - I forgot to take into account the booking fee RCI charges.  Guess that makes it a bit better.  How much is it to pool points?
> 
> Thanks!



The cost to put points in the Credit Pool is $39.00. But, since I assume you are not a VIP since you bought resale, you must pool the points before the start of your use year. So you must think ahead. 
I own CWA and the change in maintenance fee from last year to this year was $.02 per thousand points. It went from $4.87/k to $4.89/k. Plus added to that cost is the $98.00 program fee.

I heard the program fee is going up next year. Apparently it hasn't gone up in a few years. I haven't heard what CWA contracts are going up to yet.


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## pacodemountainside (Dec 15, 2012)

winnipiseogee said:


> I've been pleased with some of the Wyndham properties we have traded into so I decided to buy some Wyndham points (resale of course).  Given that we like to stay at any of the Newport RI Wyndhams as well as Smuggs I decided to just buy some Club Access points.
> 
> I was all excited when I first got my membership package today but...
> 
> ...




Yes, CWA is just another sales gimmick. I bought 154K for  a buck on   e-bay.  As I have subsequenty calculated  MF  have cost me  about $90 more than if I had bough same contract  just  deeded for  Grand Desert.

Have found worthless  for booking red hot  and  special event weeks. Also, given one only uses for high demand  154K does  not even get 1 BR  at BC!

CJ fibbed!  Membership fee  went from $4.82 in 2010 to $4.89 in 2012.

Credit pool fee is $39 but pretty sure any ARP privileges are lost.

Remember  with 126K you only get 1 RT.


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## 55plus (Dec 15, 2012)

*Another thing about Wyndham Club Acces...*

Here's another thing about resorts that fall under Wyndham Club Access. The owners associations only have one owner on the owners Board of Director. The other two are Wyndham management employees. This is not the case for resorts that are not part of Wyndham Club Access.

This is an obvious conflict of interest. The board is suppose to be elected by the particular resort's owners. Two of the three board members are not elected, but appointed by who knows who. Like I said, conflict of interest, *a blatant conflict of interest* if you really look at it...


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## winnipiseogee (Dec 15, 2012)

Thanks All - I reviewed my escrow contract and CJ definitely got the MF wrong. The actual is 11.7% higher than what was "estimated" in my contract. 

So what happens if I have points left at the end of the year?  Do they just go away?   I can't imagine there will ever be a year where I use exactly 126,000 points.  Are they super expensive if you need to buy a few extra?

Oh well - I only paid $1 (and $875 in closing fees....)


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## 55plus (Dec 15, 2012)

winnipiseogee said:


> Thanks All - I reviewed my escrow contract and CJ definitely got the MF wrong. The actual is 11.7% higher than what was "estimated" in my contract.
> 
> So what happens if I have points left at the end of the year?  Do they just go away?   I can't imagine there will ever be a year where I use exactly 126,000 points.  Are they super expensive if you need to buy a few extra?
> 
> Oh well - I only paid $1 (and $875 in closing fees....)



I think Wyndham rents points for $8 per 1000. 

What you have is about $500 worth of points you're paying for in maintenance fees. Bank them with RCI or book something and use it or send a friend...


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## markb53 (Dec 15, 2012)

winnipiseogee said:


> Thanks All - I reviewed my escrow contract and CJ definitely got the MF wrong. The actual is 11.7% higher than what was "estimated" in my contract.
> 
> So what happens if I have points left at the end of the year?  Do they just go away?   I can't imagine there will ever be a year where I use exactly 126,000 points.  Are they super expensive if you need to buy a few extra?
> 
> Oh well - I only paid $1 (and $875 in closing fees....)



When I bought my last resale contract (from Sumday) I asked for an estoppel letter which Sumday emailed to me. This confirmed that the maintenance fees claimed by Sumday were exactly what Wyndham was charging. 

If you don't use all your points, you can deposit them in RCI. Though there is a 27k minimum. So far I have put all of my point in the credit pool before my use year starts. I have found the the vast majority of Wyndham resort have pretty good availibility at 10 months as long as you get up early on the morning that the 10 month window opens.


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## pacodemountainside (Dec 15, 2012)

morrisjim said:


> Here's another thing about resorts that fall under Wyndham Club Access. The owners associations only have one owner on the owners Board of Director. The other two are Wyndham management employees. This is not the case for resorts that are not part of Wyndham Club Access.
> 
> This is an obvious conflict of interest. The board is suppose to be elected by the particular resort's owners. Two of the three board members are not elected, but appointed by who knows who. Like I said, conflict of interest, *a blatant conflict of interest* if you really look at it...



Curious where you got your info.  It appears in conflict with  CWAVOP governing documents dated January 1, 2012.

Article 4.6 of By Laws details  voting  rights.  At this point I am sure  individual Class  A  owners have  more votes than Developer Class B.

Article 5.2.4 would indicate  based on voting power  Developer would only have one Director???


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## timeos2 (Dec 15, 2012)

pacodemountainside said:


> Curious where you got your info.  It appears in conflict with  CWAVOP governing documents dated January 1, 2012.
> 
> Article 4.6 of By Laws details  voting  rights.  At this point I am sure  individual Class  A  owners have  more votes than Developer Class B.
> 
> Article 5.2.4 would indicate  based on voting power  Developer would only have one Director???



All of the Wyndham Boards should be under owner control but are totally under Wyndham corporate control. It is all rigged to benefit Wyndham & they call all the shots. Being a Wyndham owner today is nearly worthless unless you can play them as a mega-renter type. It is far easier to get what / where / when you want as rentals & far cheaper than owning with no ongoing obligations.


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## ronparise (Dec 15, 2012)

winnipiseogee said:


> Thanks All - I reviewed my escrow contract and CJ definitely got the MF wrong. The actual is 11.7% higher than what was "estimated" in my contract.
> 
> So what happens if I have points left at the end of the year?  Do they just go away?   I can't imagine there will ever be a year where I use exactly 126,000 points.  Are they super expensive if you need to buy a few extra?
> 
> Oh well - I only paid $1 (and $875 in closing fees....)



If you come to the end of the year and havent used your points they do just go away

But up until Dec 31 if you have at least 27000 left you can deposit them to RCI.  The better option in my opinion is to always deposit your points to the points credit pool. They are good for three years there Its to late for 2012, but you have another few weeks to do 2013. You could also do 2014 and after Jan 1 do 2015...and have 378000 points available  for 3 more years. Next year you would do 2016. That way you should never find your self in a use it or lose it situation at the end of a year.


And by the way..except for ARP, the CWA points work just the same as any other Wyndham points. Your complaints would be the same whether you bought regular Wyndham points or CWA. There are a very limited number of units at the resorts you mention and it doesnt make any difference which Wyndham points you own..reservations here are few and far between...Sorry...what to do about it? Im not sure


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## pacodemountainside (Dec 15, 2012)

winnipiseogee said:


> Thanks All - I reviewed my escrow contract and CJ definitely got the MF wrong. The actual is 11.7% higher than what was "estimated" in my contract.
> 
> So what happens if I have points left at the end of the year?  Do they just go away?   I can't imagine there will ever be a year where I use exactly 126,000 points.  Are they super expensive if you need to buy a few extra?
> 
> Oh well - I only paid $1 (and $875 in closing fees....)



Kinda surprised CJ got wrong. There is confusion  when multiple HOA's are  at one location. 

So, you are paying  $4.89  times 126K or  $616 plus $98 or $714.

In the olde Fairfield days points were generally 77, 105, 154 and 189 and one came out even. With Wyndham points inflation becomes more challenging to zero out!

Putting  minimum 27K with RCI is an option  but with $29 RT fee and $189 reservation  fee gets expensive to get 70K+  minimum to get a quiet week  studio.  Probably get more bang for  buck doing last call!

You could book a   say 2 niter Sunday and Monday  and then  have Wyndham  points renter do other 5 nights for around $5.00/1,000.


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## pacodemountainside (Dec 15, 2012)

times said:


> All of the Wyndham Boards should be under owner control but are totally under Wyndham corporate control. It is all rigged to benefit Wyndham & they call all the shots. Being a Wyndham owner today is nearly worthless unless you can play them as a mega-renter type. It is far easier to get what / where / when you want as rentals & far cheaper than owning with no ongoing obligations.



No disagreement Wyndham  and its polices have  destroyed the  great Fairfield of yore as well documented by Bill Spearman  article  in TimeSharing Today  of March/April 2009! I am  wholly in renting from "mega owners"  just breaking even at $5.00/ 1,000 camp!

As far as Wyndham Boards  the only ones I know are WWW and its subsidiaries. Resorts have  BODs created in accordance with governing documents.

However, your blanket   indictment that all resorts HOA's are under Wyndham control is devoid of merit and fact.  Yes, Wyndham does   rip  around 10% of resort budget for management fee, but that was done deal  at resort gestation..
Likewise $299  transfer fee.

In Colorado  all  Condo and  TSs Developers HAVE to be off Board  when  typically 80% of units are sold.

On  annual meeting info I have on Branson,  Nashville and AVP   there is no indication of any Wyndham employee being on Board.  Yea,  could put wife on under maiden name or bother-in law  but se la vie.  Have not seen any Wyndham executives  going to jail!

Dolphin's Cove which Fairfield  acquired has about  1/3   WorldMark, original fixed week owners  who have spring break and Summer and Wyndham converted points.  There is a WorldMark  executive on Board.

Out of curiosity,   of the 76  Wyndham resorts  which ones specifically  are controlled by Wyndham executives?

Being an accounting type  when plant manager  says that warehouse has $50 million in  electric  ass scratchers and Controller  we have over $10 million in bank let's go have a three Margarita  lunch  I go over and  open boxes and  get  verification from bank.

Yes, VOI Trust is  fully controlled by 3 Wyndham executives and their  Arkansas/Philadelphia  lawyers have  keep 4 owners off. Arkansas AG  told  a group of Wyndham complainers  nothing illegal, if you don't like  retain an attorney and sue 'em! Maybe  our Carolina Attorney can offer some insight!


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## 55plus (Dec 15, 2012)

pacodemountainside said:


> Curious where you got your info.  It appears in conflict with  CWAVOP governing documents dated January 1, 2012.
> 
> Article 4.6 of By Laws details  voting  rights.  At this point I am sure  individual Class  A  owners have  more votes than Developer Class B.
> 
> Article 5.2.4 would indicate  based on voting power  Developer would only have one Director???



I sit on the Glacier Canyon board as its president. The other two are Wyndham employees. It works so far because we have good dynamics, but it's still a conflict of interest and what I believe is a violation of By Laws. This is the model Wyndham is implementing at resorts associated with CWA.
There must be an agenda for what they are doing, and it's going to benefit Wyndham corporate. I miss the Fairfield days...


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## timeos2 (Dec 15, 2012)

Although I'm not saying every Wyndham Resort Board is necessarily stocked with Corporate members they are all carefully manipulated to ensure support for the Wyndham view. Everything above the most basic resort level is completely controlled by the whim of Wyndham and that is not good. It is a myth that the owners have any type of control or even meaningful input. It was a huge reason we sold ours.


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## pacodemountainside (Dec 15, 2012)

morrisjim said:


> I sit on the Glacier Canyon board as its president. The other two are Wyndham employees. It works so far because we have good dynamics, but it's still a conflict of interest and what I believe is a violation of By Laws. This is the model Wyndham is implementing at resorts associated with CWA.
> There must be an agenda for what they are doing, and it's going to benefit Wyndham corporate. I miss the Fairfield days...



You have me confused.  Wyndham is offering CWA at around 56 resorts and they have no say.   Points are points and CWA always pays HOA fees!  What model are you referring to?  Resorts are  stuck with governing documents  legally recorded at their gestation.  CWA has no  bearing other than they are block voted like street stock.

As  BOD member  what  power do you really have?  Wyndham  says no pets, no smoking, etc. Fire Department determines occupancy levels.  Manager and his staff run resort! Manager and his accountant prepare budget.  BOD says  eliminate soap from units  and OKs.

Wyndham's agenda is short and sour, maximize profits  and keep  stock holders happy, screw  our owners,  phony surveys not withstanding!  "F"  BBB rating is  ipso facto. The Main Man's glass is full of some 50 million  potential  owners/victims he is going to seduce. So far only has pitifully  gotten around  1%!

General Motors got  away with this model for  over 50 years, but there is a day of reckoning! Problem is  so many other Developers follow so the Japanese, German and Korean  guys can't come in  and knock off!


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## massvacationer (Dec 16, 2012)

winnipiseogee said:


> I've been pleased with some of the Wyndham properties we have traded into so I decided to buy some Wyndham points (resale of course).  Given that we like to stay at any of the Newport RI Wyndhams as well as Smuggs I decided to just buy some Club Access points.
> 
> I was all excited when I first got my membership package today but...
> 
> ...




OP

I think you should try to better learn to use what you have.  If the 126K points that you have for the 2013 use year are not enough, than you can pull your 2014 points back using the credit pool.  This will give you 252 points to use.   You can also borrow future points by making reservations in the express period (less than 90 days out).  Definitely place some future years into the credit pool.

Wyndham just added a big shot of additional Smuggs inventory to the system  (and I think this was added to CWA).  Availability is now good for winter (even winter 2013) and summer.  

I think CWA may not be a bad thing to own.  Wyndham just added a bunch of inventory to CWA at some western resorts that are co-managed with Worldmark.  CWA may now have valuable ARP at these places -  like Wyndham Anaheim for example.  I have a more favorable view of CWA than others on this board as I think it is going to get more and more inventory in new resorts.  I also think buying CWA is like buying insurance against Special Assesments.  I also think CWA gives an owners easier entry and exit (no recorded deeds).  I don't own CWA, but I would consider buying it if I were starting over.


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 16, 2012)

Please understand the Newport properties were developed as FIXED WEEK or Floating week seasons. Most desirable deeds (say July 4th or Summer/Prime) never made it into the Wyndham/Fairfield points systems. The owners did NOT pay thousands of dollars for the magic points box - they had what they wanted and could rent their unit out for more than the MFs from the get go.

Now, if Wyndham or the associations GETS any of those desireable deeds NOW (mainly thru trade-ins or foreclosures), they GO INTO CLUB WYNDHAM ACCESS. They are NOT resold as Fixed/Floating Weeks by Wyndham. But PRIVATE owners can still sell those weeks to others.


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## massvacationer (Dec 16, 2012)

In Newport RI, shoulder and off-season are very easy to book using Wyndham Points....lots of availability.  The summer is tough to book.  Most of the summer inventory is still in fixed and floating weeks - not points.  I am usually able snag a couple of summer weekends at exactly 10 months in Newport....late June and late August are a little easier than the middle of the summer.   If you check often, you can sometimes snag a cancellation, too.


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## MFT (Dec 16, 2012)

All of the above is excellent advise, and I am glad someone mentioned the ability to pool future points (pooling 2013 or 2014 points now, so you can use them now).  

The big question is what is the anniversary date of your contract?  If Jan, you will probably want to transfer your current points to RCI, but before you do, check and see what the rental is for a week at Smuggs or RI during the time you want to go.  You can then transfer the required number of points to RCI now (which may be more than 126K, so you can put in the exact amount you need, and it will draw from your 2012 points and the additional needed from your 2013.  Because you can't transfer pool points to RCI, do this first.  Then, whatever you have left over for 2013, pool them prior to your contract period.

I'd do your Smuggs trip with RCI first, and then if you want a week in winter 2014, you can use your 2013 pooled points and your 2014 points.  Remember, a prime winter week at Smuggs is over 200K points for a 2BR...

126K doesn't give you a lot of flexability, and if you are planning on more than 1 week a year, you should look to push up your points into the 300K range, which will give you a prime week, as well as a value week.  That being said, using RCI and pooling points will give you at least a few years of a decent week, and you can then purchase additional resale points down the road if you need them (just not access...  buy a place with cheaper MFs).

One more thing about Smuggs.  You will see different point values for a given week for a 2BR, etc.., and that's because different units on the mountain have different point requirements.  A standard 2BR can run from 154K to 224K during prime week.  The older units are in the 154 range, and are sort of showing their age.  The 224K units are much nicer.  For me, it's a ski area, and I don't mind the place being a little rough around the edges (the units are clean, etc... just a little dated).

Good luck.


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## MFT (Dec 16, 2012)

Oh, and remember that RCI has a lot of resorts available in VT, NH, and ME... so you are not limited to just Smuggs!  Lots in the North Conway area (not sure about availability, but I do know there's a lot of options out there.


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## ronparise (Dec 16, 2012)

massvacationer said:


> I think CWA may not be a bad thing to own.  Wyndham just added a bunch of inventory to CWA at some western resorts that are co-managed with Worldmark.  CWA may now have valuable ARP at these places -  like Wyndham Anaheim for example.  I have a more favorable view of CWA than others on this board as I think it is going to get more and more inventory in new resorts.  I also think buying CWA is like buying insurance against Special Assesments.  I also think CWA gives an owners easier entry and exit (no recorded deeds).  I don't own CWA, but I would consider buying it if I were starting over.



I agree and put my money where my mouth is, I own one contract and have five more in the transfer process. When the dust settles Ill have over 2 million CWA points. I dont know about AVP, and I dont much care. If they work for AVP at my favorite resorts, that will be a nice bonus. I bought these because the mf is  fair (good even; considering what I paid to buy in) and because if the insurance against special assessments. The base reason I bought is that I wanted more points, and these act just like other Wyndham points at 10 months, and the price was right.

So until I fill my appetite for Wyndham points Im happy you guys are shying away from CWA...There is less competition on ebay for them which as a buyer, makes me happy

By the way, I believe that just like fixed weeks became the step child to UDI points in the Wyndham system, I believe CWA will become the the primary Wyndham product in the future


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## winnipiseogee (Dec 16, 2012)

I guess at the end of the day my real disappointment is that my cost per night is much higher with Wyndham than it is for RCI and the availability through Wyndham isn't that much better.  

In the last year I have averaged about $80 a night for the 6 weeks I've used RCI.   3 of those weeks are higher end properties in-season 2 bdrms.  The other 3 weeks are 2bdrms shoulder season at quality properties (my first Smuggs trip was a 3 bd in mid june for $42 a night!)

From what I am seeing a 2bdrm at a Wyndham property is going to run me about $150 a night  during the shoulder season.   I understand that if I rented these rooms direct from Wyndham (which I did up until about 2 years ago) they would cost me $300+ a night so I'm getting a great deal. 

I suppose it would be easy to buy more Wyndham points but why wouldn't I just get more RCI points and pay half the price? 

I'm sure others have thought through this equation and I'm curious what has made others lean towards Wyndham?


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## MFT (Dec 16, 2012)

When you say RCI points vs Wyndham points, are you talking about the Wyndham/RCI page, in which the points those transferred from your Wyndham account, or are you talking about RCI points?

I haven't had a chance to do a lot of side by side, as I'm finding it hard to find a full 7 day week available, but let's take a 4 day trip as an example.  RCI would be around 50K, and Wyndham around 84K.  But add in the exchange fee, and you end up around the same "dollars" spent (based on cost of the additional points if booked through Wyndham).

That being said, I've booked both my stays at Smuggs through RCI, just because I had the weeks (now it's points), that were going to expire.

And remember, Smuggs is a new Wyndham resort, so a lot of the inventory going into RCI is not Wyndham inventory.

Carl


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## ronparise (Dec 17, 2012)

winnipiseogee said:


> I guess at the end of the day my real disappointment is that my cost per night is much higher with Wyndham than it is for RCI and the availability through Wyndham isn't that much better.
> 
> In the last year I have averaged about $80 a night for the 6 weeks I've used RCI.   3 of those weeks are higher end properties in-season 2 bdrms.  The other 3 weeks are 2bdrms shoulder season at quality properties (my first Smuggs trip was a 3 bd in mid june for $42 a night!)
> 
> ...



That equation is something Ive considered but not something I use.

And I would take issue with your assertion that you get RCI points vacations at half the price as Wyndham....Im at Vacation Village at parkway right now, and I have a friend at Wyndhams Bonnet CreeK.. A Bonnet Creek 2 bedroom costs 112000 Wyndham points this week. at my mf thats $560 for the week. this week at Vacation Village at Parkway is 55000 RCI points. At a decent mf of a penny a point, thats $550 plus the exchange fee or about $700

Wyndhams Bonnet Creek is the superior resort, and its cheaper to stay there

But I bought Wyndham, not so much for cheap mf or cheap stays, but rather for the resorts in the system. I dont care how may RCI points you have or what they cost you, You wont be staying in a Washington DC area timeshare. or at least you wont be able to count on getting the reservation you want..there are only two timeshares in the DC area, and they are both Wyndhams

The whole story regarding my choice of Wyndham is that there are several Wyndham resorts close to my home, for the "drive to" or "getaway" type vacation, They have a resort in San francisco (where my daughter and grandkids live) and they have the only two resorts in DC,  (where my wife and i grew up, and still have a ton of family) Cost was a secondary consideration


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## lcml11 (Dec 17, 2012)

ronparise said:


> That equation is something Ive considered but not something I use.
> 
> And I would take issue with your assertion that you get RCI points vacations at half the price as Wyndham....Im at Vacation Village at parkway right now, and I have a friend at Wyndhams Bonnet CreeK.. A Bonnet Creek 2 bedroom costs 112000 Wyndham points this week. at my mf thats $560 for the week. this week at Vacation Village at Parkway is 55000 RCI points. At a decent mf of a penny a point, thats $550 plus the exchange fee or about $700
> 
> ...



Ron's observation is equally applicable to many other markets and with the adding of a number of western locations, it is becoming true of even more markets.


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## massvacationer (Dec 17, 2012)

Yes - I agree with LCM and Ron above.

The Wyndham Points system excels at:
1. Availability.  For Wyndham Resorts it is much better than RCI
2.  Flexibility.  Stay for three, four, seven nights.  Sometimes you can stay for 2 nights or five nights etc.  Check in on different days of the week.  You can save points by not staying on Friday and Saturday nights.
3.  NO Trade fees.  These are getting to be a big factor with trading through exchange companies like RCI and I.I.
4. If you change your mind or if life happens, you can cancel and get your points back.
5.  You can borrow, pool or rent extra points from Wyndham.
6  Ever Expanding number of resorts in the network....I have owned for nearly five years and there are a lot more resorts now in the system.


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