# Malaysia Airlines Passenger Jet crashes at Ukraine/Russian Border



## DeniseM (Jul 17, 2014)

Early report suspect that it was a surface-to-air missile.



> A Malaysia Airlines passenger jet crashed -- and was possibly shot down -- in eastern Ukraine on Thursday.
> 
> The plane had 280 passengers and 15 crew members on board, read a Facebook post from Anton Gerashchenko, adviser to the Ukrainian Interior Ministry.
> 
> ...



http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Appalling...


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## billymach4 (Jul 17, 2014)

http://time.com/3001644/malaysia-airlines-ukraine/

Why? and to boot it is another Malaysia 777....


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## Passepartout (Jul 17, 2014)

Plenty of people pointing fingers, saying 'It's their fault, not mine!" Clearly, it took high powered military equipment to bring down a big plane, designed not to crash, from 33,000 feet and over 500 mph. This was not the work of some two-bit terrorist outfit. 

FAA has forbidden US carriers from overflying that area, and Lufthansa has said they will make a wide detour around it. 

My heart goes out to the families of those aboard. May they find peace.

Jim


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## ace2000 (Jul 17, 2014)

295 people (23 Americans) were on board.  It's a shame.  It's seems kind of weird that the Malaysian leader is making newsworthy comments on his Facebook page.

It's hard for me to comment further without crossing the political line, so I won't.


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## DeniseM (Jul 17, 2014)

ace2000 said:


> It's seems kind of weird that the Malaysian leader is making newsworthy comments on his Facebook page.



Malaysian officials did the same thing when their other plane disappeared - they apparently don't have a PR Dept.

I didn't know this before today, but the FAA ordered US Airlines not to fly over this area back on April 25.


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## DeniseM (Jul 17, 2014)

The US has confirmed that they have evidence that the flight was shot down by a  surface-to-air missile.  Russian Separatists captured a missile system capable of reaching high altitude planes, at the end of June.


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## Passepartout (Jul 17, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> Unbelievable.



Well, believe it. The crew and passengers would have had no idea what happened. Civil aircraft have no threat warning radars to detect anything like this, and it would have been over in the blink of an eye.

The questions now are, was it a Russian missile, or a Ukrainian missile? And who gave the 'Fire' order?


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## DeniseM (Jul 17, 2014)

They don't think it was either - the captured missile system is in the hands of Russian Separatists (rebels.)


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 17, 2014)

This event is shocking and very disturbing. It is terrorism for the sake of "because we can". 

Will setting off a nuclear device be next? Or will it be a chemical weapon attack? 

Makes the 1978 Jonestown massacre seem to have little importance despite the 909 lives lost. Today, will always make me think, that flying is much more of a risk, than it was just yesterday. There are still strange people - just now they can be dangerous 30,000 below you.


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## PigsDad (Jul 17, 2014)

Passepartout said:


> Well, believe it. The crew and passengers would have had no idea what happened. Civil aircraft have no threat warning radars to detect anything like this, and it would have been over in the blink of an eye.


Unfortunately for the crew and passengers, it is not looking like it was over in the blink of an eye.  The plane did not explode in the air and came down in basically one piece, so that would indicate the missile probably destroyed an engine / tail / wing / whatever, making the plane doomed.  It is likely all of the people had a several minute fall to the earth from 30K feet and may have been conscious for at least part of it.  

Someone needs to pay for this cowardly act.

Kurt


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## Tia (Jul 17, 2014)

Agreed it's plain scary. 



vacationhopeful said:


> This event is shocking and very disturbing. It is terrorism for the sake of "because we can".
> 
> Will setting off a nuclear device be next? Or will it be a chemical weapon attack?
> 
> .


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## Passepartout (Jul 17, 2014)

PigsDad said:


> Unfortunately for the crew and passengers, it is not looking like it was over in the blink of an eye.  The plane did not explode in the air and came down in basically one piece, so that would indicate the missile probably destroyed an engine / tail / wing / whatever, making the plane doomed.  It is likely all of the people had a several minute fall to the earth from 30K feet and may have been conscious for at least part of it.
> 
> Someone needs to pay for this cowardly act.
> 
> Kurt



Heartbreaking, but I think that evidence is supporting this view. I'd prefer it the other way.


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## pedro47 (Jul 17, 2014)

The next 24 hours will be scary for that region and  what happening in Israel  does not help.


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## ace2000 (Jul 17, 2014)

Here's a pretty good explanation of what and why it happened... it appears that the plane was shot down by Ukranian rebels (backed by Russia) and they thought it was a military transport plane instead of a civilian airliner.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...urs-leader-boasted-We-warned-not-fly-sky.html


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## billymach4 (Jul 17, 2014)

*Here are the facts*

Here are the facts


http://time.com/3002612/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash/

Just the facts about the MH17 crash

Here’s what TIME knows about Malaysian Airlines MH17 and how it crashed:

Malaysia Airlines tweeted that the flight’s last known position was over Ukrainian airspace.
The flight crashed near the town of Torez in the Ukrainian region of Donetsk.
The Boeing 777 was carrying 295 passengers and crew when it crashed. There have been no reports of survivors.
Ukraine officials say that the plane may have been shot down by Russian-made weapons.
A leader of the pro-separatist group in Ukraine told TIME that rebels did not shoot the plane down, although they have the capability.
Both President Obama and Ukrainian President Poroshenko have called for investigations of the crash.


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## DeniseM (Jul 17, 2014)

Billy - The US has already gone on record saying they have evidence that it was shot down.  For them to make a statement this early, they must be very sure.


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## easyrider (Jul 17, 2014)

Not to worry, neutral Russia has the black box.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ack-box-sent-to-moscow-for-investigation.html

If Russia is going to supply the separatists with buk missile launchers they should also supply the necessary radar so the separatist would know what they are shooting.

While this event happens, Tripoli has been taken to a surprise raid by armed militia. Maybe tomorrow's news if anyone still cares about Libya.
https://twitter.com/arabthomness/status/489868165191852032/photo/1

Here is what Putin says about this dealio.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie..._PUTIN_?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT



> In this regard, I want to note that this tragedy would not have happened if there were peace on this land, if the military actions had not been renewed in southeast Ukraine. And, certainly, the state over whose territory this occurred bears responsibility for this awful tragedy.



Could this be the excuse Putin needs to take over the Ukraine ? Maybe.

Bill


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## easyrider (Jul 17, 2014)

billymach4 said:


> Here are the facts
> 
> 
> http://time.com/3002612/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash/
> ...




I read something like this. The separatists are saying its a setup. They don't have the radar system to track or target a plane flying that high is what was said. Also there is an eye witness who saw a fighter jet shoot down the airliner. There were 3 planes in total in the air is what is being reported by rt news. Its an odd dealio backed by Russia who now has all the proof as they have the black box.

And then you have the Ukrainians blaming Russia.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...nt-suspected-in-crash-killing-295-356575.html

Bill


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## johnrsrq (Jul 17, 2014)

easyrider;16506 [B said:
			
		

> Its an odd dealio backed by Russia who now has all the proof as they have the black box.[/B]
> 
> And then you have the Ukrainians blaming Russia.
> http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...nt-suspected-in-crash-killing-295-356575.html
> ...



 The “black box” from the airplane traveled to Moscow “for investigation,” Russian radio station Kommersant FM reported.

I'm wondering if this is true. One heck of a Putin/Obama telephone call today. The Dutch ought to be up in arms. The French ought not sell this to Russia, stop the rogue Russians. http://www.defensenews.com/article/...0037/NATO-Treads-Carefully-French-Deal-Russia

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/w...all-war-in-ukraine-is-felt-globally.html?_r=0

This is truly German/French decision. Severe sanctions.


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## DeniseM (Jul 17, 2014)

CNN reports that the Russian news is saying that the Ukraine was trying to shoot down Putan's plane, and shot down the Airliner instead - that is really a stretch...


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## billymach4 (Jul 17, 2014)

*Remember now this is not the first time!*

http://time.com/3002171/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-airliners-shot-down/

If Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was accidentally shot down, it would mark the deadliest such incident. But not the first.


Ukrainian officials have blamed separatist rebels for shooting down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, possibly mistaking it for a Ukrainian aircraft. The separatists have denied the allegations—and in turn suggested Ukraine was responsible.

*Watch: Ukraine’s Airspace Emptied Out After MH17 Crashed*

http://time.com/3002807/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-airspace/


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## Phydeaux (Jul 17, 2014)

Just curious what the interest is in the black box, other than altitude, airspeed, and heading. With no notice whatsoever, what can it provide?

The black box isn't going to shout "I was hit with a SAM from coordinates w3645n4648L3746....


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## DeniseM (Jul 17, 2014)

The black box also has a recording of everything that went on in the cockpit - per CNN.  So it might reveal if the pilots saw a rocket approaching them, or anything else that might be a clue.


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## billymach4 (Jul 17, 2014)

Phydeaux said:


> Just curious what the interest is in the black box, other than altitude, airspeed, and heading. With no notice whatsoever, what can it provide?
> 
> The black box isn't going to shout "I was hit with a SAM from coordinates w3645n4648L3746....




My thoughts as well.....

Everyone is so fixated on the other MH tragedy in the Indian Ocean where that Black Box has eluded the investigators. This time they have a factual box. However this is not going to reveal who shot it out of the sky.


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## billymach4 (Jul 17, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> The black box also has a recording of everything that went on in the cockpit - per CNN.  So it might reveal if the pilots saw a rocket approaching them, or anything else that might be a clue.



I doubt they knew anything at all. Likely no warning or any indication of immediate danger.


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## Passepartout (Jul 17, 2014)

In this case, since we pretty well know what happened to the aircraft, the likely most telling piece of info could come from the cockpit voice recorder. If only to hear the pilot's reaction and how much time they had from when they knew they had been targeted.


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## easyrider (Jul 17, 2014)

billymach4 said:


> http://time.com/3002171/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-airliners-shot-down/
> 
> If Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was accidentally shot down, it would mark the deadliest such incident. But not the first.
> 
> ...



That was an interesting line up of shot down planes. 

Some time back a plane full of Polish diplomats crashed in Russia. Russia took the black box and all of the electronics on board. They haven't ever released the box but did give a report. That is how this will play out.

Bill


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## Pompey Family (Jul 18, 2014)

[ deleted ]


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## CarolF (Jul 18, 2014)

ace2000 said:


> 295 people (23 Americans) were on board.  It's a shame.



We're not getting reports of any Americans on board, they may be some of the unidentified.  It isn't a route or plane I would have thought Americans would use but about 1/3 of the passengers were travelling to our 20th International AIDS Conference (#AIDS2014) so some of your health professionals may be travelling from Europe.  We are expecting 
12 000 people for the conference which starts on Sunday.   

Australia has lost 28 people so far, the number may rise because some residents may be travelling on foreign passports.  I expect many of our losses will be tourists because an enormous number of people travel to Europe for the summer.

A terrible tragedy and an enormous loss of some of the finest minds of our global health community.


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## ace2000 (Jul 18, 2014)

CarolF said:


> We're not getting reports of any Americans on board, they may be some of the unidentified.



The Ukrainian Interior Ministry said 23 US citizens were travelling on the aircraft.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ng-295-people-crashes-in-ukraine-9612882.html


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## ace2000 (Jul 18, 2014)

Again, more reports that it was Russian backed rebels that shot down the plane, mistakenly thinking it was a military plane instead of civilian.  


*'They shouldn't be f****** flying. There is a war going on': Moment Russian separatists 'realized they had shot down a jetliner' released by Ukrainian government*

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lls-claim-PROVES-Russia-shot-Flight-MH17.html


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## CarolF (Jul 18, 2014)

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## laurac260 (Jul 18, 2014)

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## SMHarman (Jul 18, 2014)

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## bogey21 (Jul 18, 2014)

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## CarolF (Jul 18, 2014)

The number of Dutch nationals killed has just been revised upward to 189  - 4 passengers are yet to be identified. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-28360827

Confirmed death toll so far

Netherlands: 189
Malaysia: 44 (including 15 crew)
Australian: 27
Indonesia: 12
UK: 9
Germany: 4
Belgium: 4
Philippines: 3
Canada: 1
New Zealand: 1

Unverified: 4

Total: 298


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## Passepartout (Jul 18, 2014)

CarolF said:


> A terrible tragedy and an enormous loss of some of the finest minds of our global health community.



I agree with this. The loss will be felt throughout the medical- and especially the medical research community. My thoughts are with their families and colleagues.

Jim


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## CarolF (Jul 18, 2014)

Passepartout said:


> The loss will be felt throughout the medical- and especially the medical research community. My thoughts are with their families and colleagues.
> 
> Jim



The opening night fireworks planned for this evening were cancelled but the conference will go ahead with opportunities to remember those who died.


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## Pompey Family (Jul 18, 2014)

[ deleted ]


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## Phydeaux (Jul 18, 2014)

Passepartout said:


> In this case, since we pretty well know what happened to the aircraft, the likely most telling piece of info could come from the cockpit voice recorder. If only to hear the pilot's reaction and how much time they had from when they knew they had been targeted.




A big "if". And that info would be helpful and useful because...... ?


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## SmithOp (Jul 18, 2014)

[ deleted ]


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## DeniseM (Jul 18, 2014)

Folks - we need to keep this thread *non-political*, so it can stay open.  I know it's difficult, but let's discuss the event itself, and avoid the political aspects, as much as possible.


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## waffles77 (Jul 18, 2014)

First I would like say that my thoughts and prayers are with the families of the victims of this terrible tragedy. Life is definitely not fair sometimes and those who practice peaceful living can be put in danger by those who do not.

I have read reports about unclothed passengers found on the ground. Excuse my ignorance, but how did that happen? Were the clothes burned off, but not the bodies? Or did the shear force of the fall or the plane being hit cause that to happen?

I don't mean any disrespect to those who have perished by asking this question. It is simply a curiosity of why/how things happen.


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## easyrider (Jul 18, 2014)

http://rt.com/news/173628-malaysian-plane-crash-ukraine/



> 13:07 GMT:
> Ukraine’s traffic controllers ordered the Boeing-777 to lower by 500 meters when the aircraft entered Ukrainian airspace, says a statement on the Malaysia Airlines official website.
> 
> “MH17 filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000ft (10,660 meters) throughout Ukrainian airspace. This is close to the ‘optimum’ altitude. However, an aircraft’s altitude in flight is determined by air traffic control on the ground. Upon entering Ukrainian airspace, MH17 was instructed by Ukrainian air traffic control to fly at 33,000ft (10,058 meters).



This flight was not on a regular "safe course" because it was instructed by flight controllers to deviate. 

The separatists don't have the training to shoot down this plane so it is likely that the Ukrainians did it for their own purposes or Russia did it so it would have a reason to make the area safe. Since Russia is in control of this situation they will likely take a bit more of the Ukrain. 

Interestingly this week, the BRICS have stated their own bank that is backed with gold to circumvent the USD so many of the usual sanctions will not work.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...7/17/what-the-new-bank-of-brics-is-all-about/

After the dust settles this will go down as a tragedy like most others with alot of unanswered questions.

Bill


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## laurac260 (Jul 18, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> Folks - we need to keep this thread *non-political*, so it can stay open.  I know it's difficult, but let's discuss the event itself, and avoid the political aspects, as much as possible.



Agreed, though I am befuddled why my post was deleted???


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## DeniseM (Jul 18, 2014)

> The separatists don't have the training to shoot down this plane so it is *likely* that the Ukrainians did it for their own purposes or Russia did it so it would have a reason to make the area safe. Since Russia is in control of this situation they will likely take a bit more of the Ukrain.
> Bill



Seriously Bill?  It's LIKELY?  Really?

Once again you have taken the path of wild speculation.....


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## Pompey Family (Jul 18, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> Folks - we need to keep this thread *non-political*, so it can stay open.  I know it's difficult, but let's discuss the event itself, and avoid the political aspects, as much as possible.



How can you discuss the event AND avoid political aspects. The two go hand in hand in this situation. Either allow comments (within obvious reason) or delete the thread, deleting comments that you may define as 'political' whilst allowing others (including your own ) just smacks of selective censorship.

We're all adults here and I'm sure that we can engage in a grown up discussion about the situation including the political angle without it descending into a mud slinging chaos.


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## DeniseM (Jul 18, 2014)

For your review:



> TUG POSTING RULES:  Avoid posting about politics, religion, or contentious social issues.  Unless directly related to timesharing, such discussions are prohibited in these forums, including TUG Lounge.



Political posts will be deleted.

And yes, I do practice "selective censorship," - that's my job as a TUG Moderator...


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## "Roger" (Jul 18, 2014)

easyrider said:


> ...The separatists don't have the training to shoot down this plane ....
> 
> Bill


There was a non-government expert on the BBC radio this morning that originally held this opinion, but did an about face.  

If the missile was accompanied by the full range of an on the ground radar guidance system, other support systems, etc. this might have been true.  On the other hand, the missile can be launched by a very small team (three or four people) that depend upon the internal guidance of the missile itself in which case it takes almost no training to launch.  

If a full scale support group had been involved, they, in all likelihood would have identified the plane as non-military.  With just a small team, it is basically a visual sighting of a plane (in this case, flying at 30,000+ feet), point the thing in the general direction and fire.  So, ironically, if the separatists had had more training, in all likelihood, this tragedy would never have happened. No reason to down a commercial airliner (unless you just want to p*** a lot of people off and undermine any support that you hope to engender).


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## Pompey Family (Jul 18, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> Seriously Bill?  It's LIKELY?  Really?
> 
> Once again you have taken the path of wild speculation.....



Is this not political?


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## myoakley (Jul 18, 2014)

Given the population of the Netherlands, their loss is the equivalent of the 3,000 we lost on 9/11.  I think the same condolences which were expressed to us by world leaders should now be extended to them by our president and others.


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## DeniseM (Jul 18, 2014)

Pompey Family said:


> Is this not political?



I am not going to debate this issue - these are the posting rules, and if you disagree with them, please contact TUG Owner, Brian Rogers:



> In addition, do not enter complaints about moderation into BBS messages. Such posts will be considered off-topic and will be removed. Any such complaints or discussion should be communicated to the bbs staff directly via email or personal message.


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## Passepartout (Jul 18, 2014)

My major beef is that the crash site has not been secured. People are allowed to just wander all over it. A report I just heard is that no wallets have been found containing money, no cell phones, no cameras, no passports are associated with remains. Apparently the data recorders have been spirited away by unknown people to unknown locations for unknown purposes. This indicated gross neglect of what should be a protected, if not 'sacred' site. 

This is shameful at best. Criminal at worst.

Jim


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## Pompey Family (Jul 18, 2014)

I've just read a report that claimed there were 50 children on board, truly heartbreaking.


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## Pompey Family (Jul 18, 2014)

Passepartout said:


> My major beef is that the crash site has not been secured. People are allowed to just wander all over it. A report I just heard is that no wallets have been found containing money, no cell phones, no cameras, no passports are associated with remains. Apparently the data recorders have been spirited away by unknown people to unknown locations for unknown purposes. This indicated gross neglect of what should be a protected, if not 'sacred' site.
> 
> This is shameful at best. Criminal at worst.
> 
> Jim



I saw a photo on the Telegraph site that showed a pile of passports from different nationalities, a photograph taken by someone who had clearly collected them, photographed them and from that point...... who knows what or why.


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## ondeadlin (Jul 18, 2014)

A friend of mine who lives in the Netherlands suggested this English-language link for the Dutch news perspective on the event:

http://www.nltimes.nl/

(and Denise, thank you for being willing to do a mostly thankless job)


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## easyrider (Jul 18, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> Seriously Bill?  It's LIKELY?  Really?
> 
> Once again you have taken the path of wild speculation.....



Whats so wild about this thought that the rebels are not trained to use this type of weaponry ? Imo, and in the opinion of many people that are in the military, the separatists would have a hard time, if not an impossible time taking a plane down at this distance. The buk missile system is a sophisticated weapons system and with out radar support they would be shooting blindly. One way this system may have accomplished this would be to track the plane with another plane. A jet was reported to be tailing the airliner and that jet could have painted the target for the system to lock on the target. 

The separatist don't have jets. This leaves the Ukrainians or the Russians who both have fighter jets. 

What will become the accepted truth is that the separatists did this. Then Russia can broker a dealio that provides peace in the region. After all, they are the regions super power. NATO won't be allowed in just like they were not allowed in to Crimea. 

This also will advance Russia's grip on the region it once held. Nothing can stop them now, imo. Sanctions will not work as Russia is a main brics member and trades freely without USD's to China, Syria and soon all of the brics members and countries that join their effort to form a new international currency.

Bill


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## easyrider (Jul 18, 2014)

Passepartout said:


> My major beef is that the crash site has not been secured. People are allowed to just wander all over it. A report I just heard is that no wallets have been found containing money, no cell phones, no cameras, no passports are associated with remains. Apparently the data recorders have been spirited away by unknown people to unknown locations for unknown purposes. This indicated gross neglect of what should be a protected, if not 'sacred' site.
> 
> This is shameful at best. Criminal at worst.
> 
> Jim



I agree Jim. Its shameful but what would anyone expect in a region as poor as the Ukraine ? The same thing would happen if the plane was shot down over many poor countries. 

Bill


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## Pompey Family (Jul 18, 2014)

easyrider said:


> This also will advance Russia's grip on the region it once held. Nothing can stop them now, imo. Sanctions will not work as Russia is a main brics member and trades freely without USD's to China, Syria and soon all of the brics members and countries that join their effort to form a new international currency.
> 
> Bill



I don't think we should underestimate the power that the US and EU have. There has been a lot of talk about the emerging BRICS economies but recent data reveals that they're not doing as well as expected. If Russia is found to be complicit in this event then it risks harming quite a few relationships.


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## ondeadlin (Jul 18, 2014)

The options of America and Europe are fairly limited here.  You can see this by examining what happened when the Russians shot down Korean Air 007 in 1983 (which was a direct flight from the U.S. and had dozens of Americans killed).

We made speeches.  We imposed sanctions.  We condemned.  All as we should have.  But ultimately, that's all the West can do.  We're not going to war over such an incident, no matter how horrible.

Incidentally, Reagan was criticized in some quarters at the time for "doing nothing."  The reality, of course, was that there simply wasn't much to do.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/07/18/reagan-and-kal-007/


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## Pompey Family (Jul 18, 2014)

The world is a lot different now than 1983. The Soviet Union is no more and a lot of Russia's former trading partners are now more interested in dealing with the EU. Sanctions are working, Russia is certainly feeling the effects of them and they're far more effective than they were in the 80's.


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## ondeadlin (Jul 18, 2014)

I'm certainly not saying they're not working.  I'm in favor of sanctions.

Just saying that the options are what they are.


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## easyrider (Jul 18, 2014)

Pompey Family said:


> I don't think we should underestimate the power that the US and EU have. There has been a lot of talk about the emerging BRICS economies but recent data reveals that they're not doing as well as expected. If Russia is found to be complicit in this event then it risks harming quite a few relationships.



Maybe... But... the BRICS have backed their currency with gold. Ours is backed with USD's. Together the BRICS control alot of wealth and military power. The new BRICS banking system is now in place with the energy sector targeted. So what is happening is these other than USD trades for middle eastern oil will debase the USD. No more petro dollar. Of course it will take a little time but not as much time as most people think.

http://www.dw.de/brics-launch-new-bank-and-monetary-fund/a-17789608

Also, Europe is at the mercy of Russia for its energy. Russia could cut off any northern or central European country it wanted to.


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## Pompey Family (Jul 18, 2014)

easyrider said:


> Also, Europe is at the mercy of Russia for its energy. Russia could cut off any northern or central European country it wanted to.



That's a big problem but equally there are a lot of powerful men with plenty of influence over Putin who have economic interests in Europe. If those sanctions start harming them then expect a lot of flexing of that influence.


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## CatLovers (Jul 18, 2014)

*HIV Research has taken a huge hit!*

To get away from the politics of this for a few moments ... was talking to a colleague in the medical field and he said that AIDS research has been set back decades due to the loss of so much intellectual capital on MH17.  Estimates are that there were approximately 100 people on that flight heading to the 2014 AIDS Conference in Melbourne including Joep Lange (a highly-respected HIV researcher) and Glenn Thomas from the World Health Organization.

At this link, you will find some haunting images of the crash scene taken by photographer Jerome Sessini.  Fair warning though - some of the photos are graphic so are definitely not meant for children.
http://lightbox.time.com/2014/07/18/malaysia-airline-ukraine-crash-jerome-sessini/#1


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## johnrsrq (Jul 18, 2014)

easyrider said:


> Maybe... But...* the BRICS have backed their currency with gold*. Ours is backed with USD's. Together the BRICS control alot of wealth and military power. The new BRICS banking system is now in place with the energy sector targeted. So what is happening is these other than USD trades for middle eastern oil will debase the USD. No more petro dollar. Of course it will take a little time but not as much time as most people think.
> 
> http://www.dw.de/brics-launch-new-bank-and-monetary-fund/a-17789608
> 
> Also, Europe is at the mercy of Russia for its energy. Russia could cut off any northern or central European country it wanted to.



No they did not. Their $50-150 billion pledge is peanuts. A mere funding mechanism amongst nations.  It's not their currencies backed by gold. Granted they are partners but, so is the rest of the world. They could barely agree on Shanghai. The real catastrophe would be a tariff war closing open trade and having untold consequences. China will extract whatever it can from the Russian bear as isolating Russia over time is in their interests.  

Poor India- 10% gold tax- Brazil poor choices.


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## easyrider (Jul 18, 2014)

Maybe your on to something. 

I read somewhere that the brics were planning on using gold to back their currency. Not at zero hedge but maybe market watch. Maybe they are just considering backing their currency. Either way, these countries can trade with each other without western interference. As far as countries go, Russia, China and India have nukes and military capability. China has the manufacturing for the world pretty much tied up. India is right behind China with a strong manufacturing base. Brazil has offshore oil reserves and natural resources. South Africa has diamonds and gold. Alone these countries are not much but together I think they might be something. Location across the world gives these countries a strong footprint. 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/brics-bank-rival-world-bank-and-imf-and-challenge-dollar-dominance



> The BRICS want to have easy convertibility of currency to make it easier to use the real, ruble, rupee, renminbi and rand amongst themselves without having to always use the US dollar. Higher intra-Brics trade, conducted in their own currencies would shield their economies from economic dislocations in the west.





> Having a gold standard enforces a form of fiscal self or national control and does not allow any one nation to have an exorbitant privilege in terms of monetary affairs that can be used in order to further selfish national or national corporate or banking interests.
> 
> Having a new gold standard or even a quasi gold standard, as proposed by Zoellick himself some months ago, would lead to the end of the greenback as the sole global reserve currency.


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## CarolF (Jul 19, 2014)

A team of 17 international investigators were allowed to examine the wreckage for about 75 minutes, before being forced out by gunmen.  Apparently they were not given the freedom of movement needed to be able to do their job. 

Everyone agrees in principle that an impartial international investigation is required, but getting it to happen is another matter altogether.


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## Tia (Jul 19, 2014)

CarolF said:


> A team of 17 international investigators were allowed to examine the wreckage for about 75 minutes, before being forced out by gunmen.  Apparently they were not given the freedom of movement needed to be able to do their job.
> 
> Everyone agrees in principle that an impartial international investigation is required, but getting it to happen is another matter altogether.



Sad but think the site will be too contaminated as saw one report where locals were already doing so. Someone has a reason for not letting the international investigators examine the site imho.


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## johnrsrq (Jul 19, 2014)

*Merkel's birthday and possible retirement view*

Merkel exit planning?

http://www.spiegel.de/international...merkel-may-leave-office-early-a-980987-3.html

I hope her husband and others remind her of the energy it is requires to lead. The next few years will be more challenging to Germany.

My heart goes out to all affected and this Australian family:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rother-on-MH370-and-stepdaughter-on-MH17.html


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## e.bram (Jul 19, 2014)

The perps could be deserters from the Ukrainian armed forces defected the rebels. They were trained by the Ukrainians who use Russian hardware.


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## ace2000 (Jul 20, 2014)

It seems that the consensus choice is that we wouldn't fly over hostile regions.  How would we know if our intended flight is even flying over "hostile" territory?  Are we planning on getting the flight path the next time we fly overseas?  

Also, besides Ukraine currently, what other areas would you consider hostile?  Before this week, nobody even thought that the Ukranian rebels were technologically capable of this act.  What about Israel?  It gets a little complicated, doesn't it?


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## DeniseM (Jul 20, 2014)

ace2000 said:


> It seems that the consensus choice is that we wouldn't fly over hostile regions.  How would we know if our intended flight is even flying over "hostile" territory?  Are we planning on getting the flight path the next time we fly overseas?



It's simply a matter of going to the airline's website and looking it up. 



> Before this week, nobody even thought that the Ukranian rebels were technologically capable of this act.



Actually, they had already shot down 3 other planes, so it was known that they had the capability before they shot down the Malayasian flight.


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## ace2000 (Jul 20, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> Actually, they had already shot down 3 other planes, so it was known that they had the capability before they shot down the Malayasian flight.



Not at 33K feet altitude.  That's a huge difference from the previous incidents. This altitude required very sophisticated technology.  

There were a lot of European airlines flying that same route also.


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## DeniseM (Jul 20, 2014)

ace2000 said:


> Not at 33K feet altitude.  That's a huge difference from the previous incidents. This altitude required very sophisticated technology.



Which they knew that the rebels had - it had been widely reported.


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## ace2000 (Jul 20, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> Which they knew that the rebels had - it had been widely reported.



I have not seen anybody saying that.  Do you have a reference to back that up?  It wasn't just Malaysian Airlines flying over that space.


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## DeniseM (Jul 20, 2014)

ace2000 said:


> I have not seen anybody saying that.  Do you have a reference to back that up?  It wasn't just Malaysian Airlines flying over that space.



It's been all over the news - at the end of June when the rebels got the Buk missile system, they went on social media and bragged about it.  There are pictures and video of the event.

**This is a discussion for the other thread - this topic is for discussion of how this situation is impacting your vacation plans.*


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## ace2000 (Jul 20, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> It's been all over the news - at the end of June when the rebels got the Buk missile system, they went on social media and bragged about it.  There are pictures and video of the event.
> 
> **This is a discussion for the other thread - this topic is for discussion of how this situation is impacting your vacation plans.*



Then let's move the posts over there please.  The social media event that you're referring to - were not enough evidence to prove that they had those missiles.  The rebels posted some pictures on a Twitter post, but evidently that wasn't enough evidence for the airlines to switch their paths.

I don't think the evidence is as clear as you're describing.


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## DeniseM (Jul 20, 2014)

ace2000 said:


> Then let's move the posts over there please.  The social media event that you're referring to - were not enough evidence to prove that they had those missiles.  The rebels posted some pictures on a Twitter post, but evidently that wasn't enough evidence for the airlines to switch their paths.
> 
> I don't think the evidence is as clear as you're describing.



Since this is apparently the first time you've heard of it, I'd like to suggest that you do a little more research.  The *Russians* even announced that the rebels had this missile system on June 29th.


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## ace2000 (Jul 20, 2014)

Here's some research... from the Washington Post.  Did you want the airlines to make substantial changes because of a Twitter post?

*Should MH17 have even been flying over eastern Ukraine?*

http://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...7-have-even-been-flying-over-eastern-ukraine/



> Yes, several authorities recommended caution in planning flights in this region and for frequent checks of new and revised airspace restrictions. But, at the time of the crash, there were no restrictions in place for any commercial flights above 32,000ft in the area where MH17 crashed.
> 
> Only now, after this terrible incident, has a NOTAM been issued, closing off all altitudes to U.S.-based carriers. And, many airlines are being more cautious than is currently required of them, with most circumventing Ukraine entirely.


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## DeniseM (Jul 20, 2014)

ace2000 said:


> Here's some research... from the Washington Post.  Did you want the airlines to make substantial changes because of a Twitter post?



YES!  It would have saved almost 300 innocent people from a horrific death!

Since we now know that ignoring this info. had tragic results, where are you going with this?  It's completely illogical to defend this action, now that we know the consequences.


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## ace2000 (Jul 20, 2014)

More research... evidently the well known news you're referring to wasn't known by Ukranian intelligence until the day of the incident... hardly enough time for the airlines to get the news in order to make flight changes.

http://www.therakyatpost.com/news/2014/07/20/ukraine-knew-buks-area-initiating-criminal-proceedings/



> However, it also revealed that the Security Service of Ukraine (SSU) had on the morning of July 17 received reliable information that pro-Russia separatists, the Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR), had  acquired surface-to-air missiles capabilities.
> ...
> “In the morning of July 17, the day of a tragedy, the SSU CI acquired reliable information that capabilities of at least one* BUK-M system* with a crew were available to DNR militants.


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## DeniseM (Jul 20, 2014)

One more time - *Russia announced* in the news that the rebels had the system on June 29th, so obviously everyone knew after that.


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## ace2000 (Jul 20, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> The *Russians* even announced that the rebels had this missile system on June 29th.



Can you provide a reference for this "opinion" of yours?


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## DeniseM (Jul 20, 2014)

Just google it - it's all over the news.

Here is one of the original reports in the Russian news:

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_...trol-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/


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## ace2000 (Jul 20, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> Just google it - it's all over the news.



Edit: That reference has nothing to do with Russia providing the missiles to the Ukranian rebels as you claimed.  And that is definitely not the missile system used to shoot down the airline.


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## DeniseM (Jul 20, 2014)

Since you are having a problem finding the info., I added it to my post.  

The reason that I suggested that you google it _yourself_, is so that you can see that it's been widely reported.


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## DeniseM (Jul 20, 2014)

ace2000 said:


> Edit: That reference has nothing to do with *Russia providing the missiles* to the Ukranian rebels as you claimed.
> 
> And that is *definitely not the missile system used* to shoot down the airline.



•I never said the Russians provided it to them.  What are you talking about?

•The Buk system definitely IS a type of missile system that could be used to shoot down the airliner - every news report says this, and in fact, they believe that is what was used. 

Our discussion is regarding whether the powers-that-be should have known that the insurgents might have the fire power to shoot down an airliner.   Obviously, you were completely unaware of the reports from June 29th.  Are you just trying to change the subject or what? 



> June 29, 2014:  The self-defense forces of Donetsk People’s Republic seized control of a Ukrainian anti-air military installation, RIA Novosti reports.
> 
> "The forces of Donetsk People’s Republic assumed control of A-1402 military base," the militia's representative said. According to him, it is an anti-aircraft missile forces facility equipped with *Buk mobile surface-to-air missile systems.
> *
> ...


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## ace2000 (Jul 20, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> I never said the Russians provided it to them.  What are you talking about?
> 
> Our discussion is regarding whether the powers-that-be should have known that the insurgents might have the fire power to shoot down an airliner.



Sorry, you mentioned the Russians reported they had the technology.  Again, in answer to your question about whether they should have known they were capable - read the Washington Post editorial.  As the Post mentioned - "it's very complicated".  Good discussion, I do have to go.


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## DeniseM (Jul 20, 2014)

ace2000 said:


> Sorry, you mentioned the Russians reported they had the technology.



If the Russians report that I have Herpes, does that mean they gave it to me???

You need to spring for cable...


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## laurac260 (Jul 20, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> If the Russians report that I have Herpes, does that mean they gave it to me???
> 
> You need to spring for cable...



Denise, some Russian guy gave you herpes????


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## DeniseM (Jul 20, 2014)

laurac260 said:


> Denise, some Russian guy gave you herpes????



Yes, that's exactly what I said....  :rofl:


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## "Roger" (Jul 20, 2014)

laurac260 said:


> Denise, some Russian guy gave you herpes????


The Russian separatists have denied having any part in this and are claiming the Ukrainians did it.  :hysterical:


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## DeniseM (Jul 20, 2014)

"Roger" said:


> The Russian separatists have denied having any part in this and are claiming the Ukrainians did it.  :hysterical:



You are quick!  :hysterical:


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## ace2000 (Jul 20, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> •The Buk system definitely IS a type of missile system that could be used to shoot down the airliner - every news report says this, and in fact, they believe that is what was used.
> 
> Our discussion is regarding whether the powers-that-be should have known that the insurgents might have the fire power to shoot down an airliner.   Obviously, you were completely unaware of the reports from June 29th.



Ok, now I see where your disconnect is.  The Buk system that was captured by the rebels during the battle you're referring to, was "not a concern", according to the Ukraine government  (source is below).   Even Kerry stated today that the missile and the technology WAS provided by Russia.  The system you keep harping about today was not even active.

*U.S. Points to Russian Missile Connection in Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Crash*

Wall Street Journal https://www.google.com/webhp?tab=ww...-malaysia-airlines-flight-17-crash-1405816389  (click the first reference returned in the search.)



> Reports that rebels had possession of a Buk-M1 came as early as June 29, when separatists overran a Ukrainian armed-forces base in the conflict zone in eastern Ukraine. The rebels boasted of seizing control of the weapons system in a Russian news report.
> 
> *The counterintelligence chief at Ukraine's national security service, Vitaly Nayda, said the reports didn't overly worry his government, as Ukrainian armed forces had rendered that equipment inoperative in March, around the time when the fighting in the area kicked off. The missile system remains on the base, but all the warheads had been removed, Mr. Nayda said.*


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## ace2000 (Jul 20, 2014)

"Roger" said:


> The Russian separatists have denied having any part in this and are claiming the Ukrainians did it.  :hysterical:



Good one!


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## DeniseM (Jul 20, 2014)

Ace2000 - We seemed to have wandered off from the original point of debate:



ace2000 said:


> Before this week, nobody even thought that the Ukranian rebels were technologically capable of this act.



There was overwhelming evidence that it was dangerous to fly over the Ukraine, and that the Russian Separatists were attempting to do something with a Buk Missile Launcher.  Of course, hindsight is 20-20, but looking back on it, it's clear that this is a tragedy that could have been prevented by closing the airspace.

*Here's the time line:*



> Events before the crash
> 
> March 2014: Korean Air and Asiana Airlines "stopped flying over Ukraine airspace ... because of security concerns."[50] Aeroflot, Lufthansa, Singapore Airlines and others would continue overflying eastern Ukraine until after MH17 was shot down.[51]
> 
> ...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#cite_note-80


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## ace2000 (Jul 20, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> Ace2000 - We seemed to have wandered off from the original point of debate:



Hey, I'm not the one bringing herpes into the discussion, don't look at me.   Our discussion has been whether or not the airline officials had reason to believe the Ukranian rebels were capable of shooting down a civilian airliner at 33K feet - and thus perhaps they would've prevented the incident.  Everything I've posted has been related to that.  You were focused on the launcher taken by the rebels from Ukraine last month.  That launcher was not the cause of this incident - see Secretary of State Kerry's remarks today.  

The Malaysian airline, as well as other European airlines, decided the risk wasn't high enough to warrant changing the flight paths.  Malaysian Airlines was not the only airline flying over that zone.  If there was reason to believe that they should've known better, it'll be settled in a court of law by the families of the victims, and definitely won't be decided here on TUG between us.


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## johnrsrq (Jul 20, 2014)

ace2000 said:


> Not at 33K feet altitude.  That's a huge difference from the previous incidents. This altitude required very sophisticated technology.
> 
> There were a lot of European airlines flying that same route also.



Yes there were a lot of European airlines and other still flying that route. I tried to google the press conference that Malaysian Airlines when their officials arrived in Kiev. They first mentioned the released of the passenger list concurrent with the news conference and afterward had something to say about criticism about the flight path. I couldn't locate it on google but it summarized something like 15 airline and 77 flights in the three days prior to the shoot down had taken the same basic route over that part of Ukraine.

While my first reaction was why in H*** why they near there.  

Also, the airline could have chosen to change it and more importantly the organization that they are a part of could have recommended changes to the airlines. Fuzzy on this..   Tragic.


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## ace2000 (Jul 20, 2014)

johnrsrq said:


> While my first reaction was why in H*** why they near there.
> 
> Also, the airline could have chosen to change it and more importantly the organization that they are a part of could have recommended changes to the airlines. Fuzzy on this..   Tragic.



It's a valid question and one that will be much discussed.  Here's a source from NBC News.  Also, read the source provided in post #95.  The Ukranian government as well as the European airline authorities did not believe the rebels had the technology to shoot down an aircraft at that altitude.

_Why Was Malaysia Airlines MH17 Flying Over Ukraine? Time, Money
_
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/uk...s-mh17-flying-over-ukraine-time-money-n159161


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## easyrider (Jul 21, 2014)

*Malaysia Airlines new route*

I was just reading a blog by Al Jezera that Malaysia Airlines has decided on a new route. They are not flying over Ukraine anymore but have decided on Syria. 

To me this seems odd for a couple of reasons but mostly because there has been an ongoing war in Syria.

http://live.aljazeera.com/Event/Ukraine_liveblog/122175713


> Malaysia Airlines began diverting its planes from Ukraine airspace after MH17 was shot down. According to Flightradar24, its flights between the UK and Malaysia now fly over Syria.



Bill


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## billymach4 (Jul 22, 2014)

*Russian Television Under Spotlight After Malaysia Airlines Crash in Ukraine*

Among the most egregious, the group’s founder told TIME, is the case of a blond actress who has cropped up in different roles over the course of conflict. The actress, Maria Tsypko, has been interviewed on state TV and identified as separatist camp organizer in Odessa, a political refugee in Sevastopol and an election monitor in Crimea, according to the site. The only thing that never changes is her affection for Mother Russia.


http://time.com/3014822/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-rt-russian-television/

Reminds me of the old cold war days of the communist propaganda machines. Pravda, and Isvestia.... How about that for a blast from the past.


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## billymach4 (Jul 22, 2014)

easyrider said:


> I was just reading a blog by Al Jezera that Malaysia Airlines has decided on a new route. They are not flying over Ukraine anymore but have decided on Syria.
> 
> To me this seems odd for a couple of reasons but mostly because there has been an ongoing war in Syria.
> 
> ...



Something is wrong at Malaysia Airlines.... Not sure I can pinpoint the reason, or cause. They will have to shutdown and reboot under a different name to stay afloat.


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## MULTIZ321 (Jul 22, 2014)

How Technology Is Unraveling the Clues of Flight MH17:http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/how-technology-is-unraveling-the-clues-of-flight-mh17/374814/ - by Patrick Tucker/ Global/ The Atlantic. 

Building a case with satellite imagery, black boxes and tweets


Richard


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## DeniseM (Jul 23, 2014)

2 more Ukrainian fighter jets have been shot down.  CNN is saying they were flying at an altitude that the small shoulder launchers couldn't reach, so they believe the Bok was used again. Unbelievable...


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## easyrider (Jul 23, 2014)

Those su25's are ground attack aircraft. If the Ukrainians are using these for combat missions the jet becomes a sitting duck, imo. Its been reported that the missiles came in from Russian territory.

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM


> Retweeted by Christopher Miller
> Agence France-Presse @AFP  ·  4h
> #BREAKING: Missiles that shot down two fighter jets fired from Russia:




[Political statement deleted - please discuss the events - not the politics.]


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## MULTIZ321 (Jul 16, 2015)

Mourning and Seeking Answers Where Malaysia Airlines Jet Fell to Earch - by Andrew E. Kramer/ World/ Europe/ International New York Times/ The New York Times/ nytimes.com

ROZSYPNE, Ukraine — "A year ago, in this village deep in the sunflower-field outback of eastern Ukraine, bodies fell from the sky, and residents are still grappling to make sense of what happened.

In the first moments after he heard a boom, Igor I. Tipunov, a welder, was confused. He walked outside. He glanced up. Then he dived for cover.

“Something flying very fast was whistling through the air” and falling toward his house, he recalled.

A living woman, or the body of a woman, he was not entirely sure, was falling — literally out of the blue. She went through his roof, scattering tiles about the yard, and landed face down in his kitchen, naked but for string underwear.

A year later, Mr. Tipunov is still looking for explanations, and he is not alone among the people in the three small, rural Ukrainian villages where debris landed after Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, a Boeing 777 heading to Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, from Amsterdam, was shot down a year ago Friday.

It was the families of the victims who suffered most. But the catastrophe that created a debris field of about 14 square miles was harrowing for those on the ground, too..."





 A memorial stands in Rozsypne, one of three villages where debris landed. Credit Uriel Sinai for The New York Times 


Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Oct 13, 2015)

Dutch Investigators say Buk Missle Downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 - by Bart Jansen and Jane Onyanga-Omara, USA Today/ News/ World/ usatoday.com

"The Dutch Safety Board concluded Tuesday that downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was hit by a Russian-made Buk missile fired from rebel-held eastern Ukraine in July 2014.

The missile struck near the cockpit, instantly killing the two pilots and another crewmember while breaking off the front of the plane, the board said in its final report of the incident that killed all 298 on board. Some passengers may have remained conscious for up to a minute and a half before the Boeing 777 crashed into the ground, but they probably were not fully aware of what was happening amid the oxygen-starved chaos, the report said..."





(Photo: Lai Seng Sin, AP)


Richard


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## Patri (Oct 14, 2015)

So very sad. What has Russia had to say about this for the past year?
I don't think the passengers suffered too much. Thank goodness.


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## DeniseM (Oct 14, 2015)

Patri said:


> So very sad. What has Russia had to say about this for the past year?
> I don't think the passengers suffered too much. Thank goodness.



Russia's reaction is discussed in the last article linked above - denial.


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## Patri (Oct 14, 2015)

I meant, what was their input way back, and all these months, as people speculated? I could research, but just wondering. Not surprised they would deny now.


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## DeniseM (Oct 14, 2015)

Patri said:


> I meant, what was their input way back, and all these months, as people speculated? I could research, but just wondering. Not surprised they would deny now.



If you look back through the thread, you will see that Russia released all kinds of crazy scenarios, including a claim that someone was trying to shoot down Putin's plane.


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## taterhed (Oct 14, 2015)

Lets face it:

 Russia sent  Russian troops into Ukraine with Russian weapons.  Large numbers of troops; not just advisors.  They merely removed the patches and insignia and denied involvement.

 That, my friends, is a violation of the most basic rules of war.  Something LOTS of 3rd world nations have been doing for quite a while in asymmetric warfare.  It was, IMHO, unexpected from Mother Russia.

 Who cares what Russia says or denies or claims?  They are apparently doing whatever they want these days.  Putin is a man to be feared--if not respected.  He will stop at nothing.


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