# Steve Ballmer's Nightmare is Coming True



## MULTIZ321 (Dec 3, 2012)

Steve Ballmer's Nightmare is Coming True - by Jay Yarow/ Business Insider/ Yahoo!Finance.com


Richard


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 3, 2012)

Not to worry - the rah rah "never could happen to MS" &"Windows (fill in (S)late/Phone/8) will rule" rants will be posted by the deniers but the fact is MS peaked & will become a Word perfect type entity in years ahead . The trend is set now. Good riddance - they held the industry hostage for 15 years too long with bullying, and FUD & many illegal tactics. They never had the best products or any true innovation. They will not be fondly remembered by very many. Bye Bye.


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 3, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Not to worry - the rah rah "never could happen to MS" &"Windows (fill in (S)late/Phone/8) will rule" rants will be posted by the deniers but the fact is MS peaked & will become a Word perfect type entity in years ahead . The trend is set now. Good riddance - they held the industry hostage for 15 years too long with bullying, and FUD & many illegal tactics. They never had the best products or any true innovation. They will not be fondly remembered by very many. Bye Bye.


 
Microsoft is sitting with over $60B in cash.  They'll be around for a long time.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 3, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> Microsoft is sitting with over $60B in cash.  They'll be around for a long time.



Lotus, Worrdperfect, Novell, Visicalc and many others "had tons" of cash too - they burned through it eventually and still slid into near meaningless existence or history. Not to mention RIM, Palm, Compaq, et al.  Except for IBM it has happened to most & MS is now becoming another.


----------



## hypnotiq (Dec 3, 2012)

Its official. I dont think I've met a bigger cry baby than timeos2...and I have a 2.5 year toddler.  :hysterical:


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 3, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Lotus, Worrdperfect, Novell, Visicalc and many others "had tons" of cash too - they burned through it eventually and still slid into near meaningless existence or history. Not to mention RIM, Palm, Compaq, et al. Except for IBM it has happened to most & MS is now becoming another.


 
You need to do some more research.  They had cash, nowhere near $60B.  How many current tech companies are even *worth *$60B?  You'll find a short list, not many.


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 3, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Lotus, Worrdperfect, Novell, Visicalc and many others "had tons" of cash too - they burned through it eventually and still slid into near meaningless existence or history. Not to mention RIM, Palm, Compaq, et al.  Except for IBM it has happened to most & MS is now becoming another.



I'll save you the time... 

Just on their cash position alone, Microsoft would be the 12th ranked tech company based on the market cap of the top 25 tech companies.


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Dec 3, 2012)

The article is very weak on facts and high on speculation.   Barclays bought 1800  ipads and the author thinks this is a trend away from Microsoft?   I am sure that more than 1800 windows 8 computers get sold every day.   Poor journalism.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2012)

pgnewarkboy said:


> The article is very weak on facts and high on speculation.   Barclays bought 1800  ipads and the author thinks this is a trend away from Microsoft?   I am sure that more than 1800 windows 8 computers get sold every day.   Poor journalism.



Poor quoting. The correct quote is:



> British bank Barclays bought 8,500 iPads at employees' insistence this year.



I'm not sure of the facts presented in this article, but it does show a possible trend. For those who want Microsoft to survive and prosper (myself included), they do need to do a better job. I'm waiting for official Surface sales numbers...


----------



## Talent312 (Dec 3, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> I'm waiting for official Surface sales numbers...



I think they sold like 18, but they keep getting passed around to look like more.

As someone who has been in the MS camp since DOS 2.0 (for the IBM PC/XT circa 1983), I have to say that its one thing to have a great history, but quite another to remain relevant in a changing environment.

Its increasingly evident that they've missed the boat on the new wave in mobile computing. MS has an installed base that will keep it chugging along for at least another generation, but they seem destined to become the "Digital Research" of this age.
.
.


----------



## Clemson Fan (Dec 4, 2012)

Talent312 said:


> I think they sold like 18, but they keep getting passed around to look like more.



Didn't Oprah buy 12 as gifts for friends and family?  At least that's what she said from a tweet off of her iPad. 

In all seriousness, I'm actually a pretty big fan of Windows 7 and I hope that Windows 8 and the Surface turn out to be good products.  I definitely have a wait and see attitude, though, because I do like Windows 7 a lot and I have a, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", attitude.


----------



## VacationForever (Dec 4, 2012)

Microsoft is still the best platform, for business.  It is the most secured OS currently (yes everyone remembers the malware crisis and the ongoing security patching that we went through for many years.)  I am still hoping for Microsoft OS phones and tablets to be re-released.  Apple is geared towards consumers, and frankly speaking, I am not a fan of Apple.  IPhones and IPADs have been problematic for us.  At work, everyone has a Intel-I86 / Microsoft OS laptops, and for many also phones and tablets.  We had originally defined Apple IPhones and IPads as standards because the OS is more secure than Droid.  But we are now converting IPhones and IPads to Droids now because of stability and battery life issues with the former.  We are aware of security (or rather, lack of) issues with Droids.  We are also testing out the new Kindle Fire HD 4G LTE now.

Don't dismiss Microsoft. I don't see Apple as a strong competitor of Microsoft in an office environment yet.  Laptops and tablets have 2 separate sets of use cases, with some overlap.


----------



## l2trade (Dec 4, 2012)

"Windows Phone has over 100,000 apps, but iOS has 700,000 apps, with 275,000 made specifically for the iPad."

Now this is just a silly comparison, isn't it? As long as the important apps are included with all the garbage apps people don't want, it is nothing more than meaningless bragging rights. I own multiple iPads and I am considering buying the higher end Surface when it releases. Assuming I can get Angry Birds, then everything will be ok with Microsoft. If not, then I refuse to buy anything from Microsoft, except for windows, office, xbox, vs, sql and miscellaneous stuff like keyboards and mice.


----------



## myip (Dec 4, 2012)

sptung said:


> Microsoft is still the best platform, for business.  It is the most secured OS currently (yes everyone remembers the malware crisis and the ongoing security patching that we went through for many years.)


Sorry to say, my office just switch all the MS PC for MAC due to security issue with MS PC. We have consultants come in the advise us on security issue..  We were hacked  and have numerous trojan virus.


----------



## MULTIZ321 (Dec 4, 2012)

l2trade said:


> "Windows Phone has over 100,000 apps, but iOS has 700,000 apps, with 275,000 made specifically for the iPad."
> 
> Now this is just a silly comparison, isn't it? As long as the important apps are included with all the garbage apps people don't want, it is nothing more than meaningless bragging rights. I own multiple iPads and I am considering buying the higher end Surface when it releases. Assuming I can get Angry Birds, then everything will be ok with Microsoft. If not, then I refuse to buy anything from Microsoft, except for windows, office, xbox, vs, sql and miscellaneous stuff like keyboards and mice.



Microsoft Surface Pro to start at $899 by David Goldman/ Tech/ CNNMoney/ money.cnn.com

My understanding is that you'll be able to get Angry Birds on the Surface Pro


Richard


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 4, 2012)

myip said:


> Sorry to say, my office just switch all the MS PC for MAC due to security issue with MS PC. We have consultants come in the advise us on security issue.. We were hacked and have numerous trojan virus.


 
Has to be a small business.


----------



## VacationForever (Dec 4, 2012)

myip said:


> Sorry to say, my office just switch all the MS PC for MAC due to security issue with MS PC. We have consultants come in the advise us on security issue..  We were hacked  and have numerous trojan virus.



I am a CISSP (Certified Information Systems Security Professional) and I am sorry to tell you that your consultants were wrong.  Years ago the belief was that Apple OS was more secure than Microsoft OS.  The reason that Apple was perceived to be more secure was that their market was small and it was not targeted.  Fast forward now, Microsoft OS and applications are the most secure in the industry.  Your systems got hacked because your office was not taking the preventative measures and it can happen on Apple OS too.


----------



## Passepartout (Dec 4, 2012)

Don't discount MS. They are still the 'Elephant in the Room' when it comes to personal and business computers. Apple, no matter what the fans say, is still, and will remain, the 'boutique' computer. Without doubt Apple is superior when it comes to music, and graphic design apps, but for general business- like word processing and spreadsheets and scheduling, when you walk into the vast majority of businesses, the computers on the desks are running some version of Windows. Are there exceptions? Sure. But the installed base of Windows is so huge and deep, worldwide, that MS's dominance is for all intents and purposes permanent.

Has MS made mis-steps? Yup. Every product they've produced hasn't been a home-run in it's category, but in the aggregate, they are still dominant. 

Now, as to Ballmer's nightmare. It could be that there is some loss of sleep right now. Comparing Surface and iPad, I'll take iPad for my purposes. Better display and lower price and more out-of-the-box apps available right now. But by the time another generation or 2 of Win8 devices comes down the pike, and people get used to the interface, look out. Win 8 will come roaring back. There just isn't an alternative for millions- no, billions, of people who cut their digital teeth on Windows- and the newest iteration is Number 8.

Jim


----------



## Elan (Dec 4, 2012)

myip said:


> Sorry to say, my office just switch all the MS PC for MAC due to security issue with MS PC. We have consultants come in the advise us on security issue..  We were hacked  and have numerous trojan virus.



  OSX has traditionally been one of the easiest OS's to exploit.  Google "pwn2own" for results. As sptung points out, OSX was only thought to be secure because nobody really cares about OSX, including hackers.

  I work for a huge high tech company with a lot of valuable IP.  Security is of utmost importance.  We badge in and badge out.  Visitors can't roam the halls without an escort.  Trash is shredded.  Whiteboards are erased after meetings.  We use Windows 7 (and Linux) worldwide and don't have security issues.  

  Might want to hire new IT consultants...........


----------



## Elan (Dec 4, 2012)

Passepartout said:


> Don't discount MS. They are still the 'Elephant in the Room' when it comes to personal and business computers. Apple, no matter what the fans say, is still, and will remain, the 'boutique' computer. Without doubt Apple is superior when it comes to music, and graphic design apps, but for general business- like word processing and spreadsheets and scheduling, when you walk into the vast majority of businesses, the computers on the desks are running some version of Windows. Are there exceptions? Sure. But the installed base of Windows is so huge and deep, worldwide, that MS's dominance is for all intents and purposes permanent.
> 
> Has MS made mis-steps? Yup. Every product they've produced hasn't been a home-run in it's category, but in the aggregate, they are still dominant.
> 
> ...



  Exactly right.  Real business uses Windows.  That's not changing any time soon.

  I would have to think that MS's long term strategy is to leverage business adoption of Win8 on desktops into Win8 on mobile.  But in typical MS fashion, it might end up leveraging Win9 or Win10 .  Nevertheless, it's seemingly a sound strategy.


----------



## hypnotiq (Dec 4, 2012)

Clemson Fan said:


> In all seriousness, I'm actually a pretty big fan of Windows 7 and I hope that Windows 8 and the Surface turn out to be good products.  I definitely have a wait and see attitude, though, because I do like Windows 7 a lot and I have a, *"If it ain't broke, don't fix it", *attitude.



IMO, this is a good reason why there is slower adoption of Windows 8 than Windows 7.

Everyone remembers the nightmare that was Vista. Which means everyone was already long awaiting its replacement. So when 7 came out, people were quick to ditch Vista.

Now that Windows 8 is out, I think there is a slower adoption rate for 2 reasons. 

#1, anyone running Windows 7 is pretty happy and just doesn't see a compelling reason to move to Windows 8. Unlike Vista, where people were like rats on a sinking ship trying to get away from it.

#2, people aret wary of the new interface (which is the most radical change since Windows 3.1-> 95 and I've already discussed in detail how people do not like change.



sptung said:


> I am a CISSP (Certified Information Systems Security Professional) and I am sorry to tell you that your consultants were wrong.  Years ago the belief was that Apple OS was more secure than Microsoft OS.  The reason that Apple was perceived to be more secure was that their market was small and it was not targeted.  Fast forward now, Microsoft OS and applications are the most secure in the industry.  Your systems got hacked because your office was not taking the preventative measures and it can happen on Apple OS too.



Spot on!



l2trade said:


> "Windows Phone has over 100,000 apps, but iOS has 700,000 apps, with 275,000 made specifically for the iPad."
> 
> Now this is just a silly comparison, isn't it? As long as the important apps are included with all the garbage apps people don't want, it is nothing more than meaningless bragging rights.



Finally, someone that sees through the app # crap.
Over 2/3rds of the Apple Store apps have *never* been downloaded.
http://www.webpronews.com/over-two-thirds-of-the-app-store-has-never-been-downloaded-2012-08


----------



## hypnotiq (Dec 4, 2012)

As far as Windows Phone goes, if people actually sat down and played with it, without their mind already made up, they may find out that they actually like it. 

A couple of weeks ago, my ex-FIL sent me a text that said 
"Hey, I'm up for ugprade on Verizon. Is there any reason I should leave Android and get the new Windows Phone 8?"

I told him about the Windows Phone 8 and encouraged him to go into the Verizon store to play with it. I told him worst case, if he ended up picking it up and after a couple of weeks if it didnt suit him, he could always return it and get a SIII.  He's been on Android for at least the last 3 or 4 years, so he's pretty used to it.

He sent me a text yesterday after having the phone a week. "Wow. This phone is totally different than what I'm used to but I'm totally diggin' it."

Its great to have diversity in the technology space, as it allows everyone to chose what product best fits their lifestyle/workflow/etc.

Apple/Android/MS *ALL*thriving is a good thing for everyone, and should be encouraged. As competition breeds innovation and ultimately choice.


----------



## Elan (Dec 4, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> As far as Windows Phone goes, if people actually sat down and played with it, without their mind already made up, they may find out that they actually like it.
> 
> A couple of weeks ago, my ex-FIL sent me a text that said
> "Hey, I'm up for ugprade on Verizon. Is there any reason I should leave Android and get the new Windows Phone 8?"
> ...



  Agree completely.  

  I really like Android (especially since 4.1), but I'm up for trying a Windows Phone device.  Everyone I know who has one says they're nice enough to use, so why not?  The Nexus 4 being out there at $300 unsubsidized will make it tough to switch, but when I'm ready to upgrade Windows 8 devices will get a serious look.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 4, 2012)

Elan said:


> Exactly right.  Real business uses Windows.  That's not changing any time soon.
> 
> I would have to think that MS's long term strategy is to leverage business adoption of Win8 on desktops into Win8 on mobile.  But in typical MS fashion, it might end up leveraging Win9 or Win10 .  Nevertheless, it's seemingly a sound strategy.



More and more "real businesses" use some form of Linux/Cloud base rather than Windows (and yes, Apple is not really a Corporate player - mostly consumer stuff).  Microsoft is now legacy software like Fortran and other before it. Some will stay in the dark ages and not move over but the new projects - where the real money is - are now migrating to non-Windows environments. 

And yes, any consultant that recommends Apple for security reasons is NOT a qualified provider. Best look for someone new in that situation. You are getting poor advice from them and that is just laziness or misunderstanding of the market.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 4, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> Spot on!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have to agree here. The tens and hundreds of thousands of largely useless and needless apps means zilch. At most users will find and use 10-25 or 30 and the rest are never even considered. Plus if your device has a good browser and a good OS it will use THAT to access standard, web based products without any need for specialized / customized apps. THAT is a much better way to go. Apps ae a convenience and should not be a big consideration for buyers. Overall compatibility with the web is far more critical & useful.


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 4, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> More and more "real businesses" use some form of Linux/Cloud base rather than Windows (and yes, Apple is not really a Corporate player - mostly consumer stuff). Microsoft is now legacy software like Fortran and other before it. Some will stay in the dark ages and not move over but the new projects - where the real money is - are now migrating to non-Windows environments.


 

LOL - I swear, I think you just make this stuff up as you go along.  Seriously, do you have a reference to back up your hypothesis?


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 4, 2012)

Elan said:


> OSX has traditionally been one of the easiest OS's to exploit.  Google "pwn2own" for results. As sptung points out, OSX was only thought to be secure because nobody really cares about OSX, including hackers.
> 
> I work for a huge high tech company with a lot of valuable IP.  Security is of utmost importance.  We badge in and badge out.  Visitors can't roam the halls without an escort.  Trash is shredded.  Whiteboards are erased after meetings.  We use Windows 7 (and Linux) worldwide and don't have security issues.
> 
> Might want to hire new IT consultants...........



If you spend enough resources toward security for a windows environment, there is little doubt that it is very secure. For small businesses the situation isn't quite as clear cut. Best practices are rarely adhered to without constant diligence, regardless of the IT consultant, since the employees (and owners) often "know best". Small business and entrepreneurs run their firms quite differently than large companies, and that distinction impacts how computers are used in their office. I know many, many horror stories where regardless of what the consultant implemented, and recommended, the client changed the environment in some way which degraded security and resulted in a nasty situation. In my experience, this happens more often with Windows networks, but then there are more of them than Macs.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 4, 2012)

l2trade said:


> "Windows Phone has over 100,000 apps, but iOS has 700,000 apps, with 275,000 made specifically for the iPad."
> 
> Now this is just a silly comparison, isn't it? As long as the important apps are included with all the garbage apps people don't want, it is nothing more than meaningless bragging rights.



FWIW, this is exactly the same argument Mac supporters used in the 90s when comparing Apple to Microsoft. It was true then and it's true now.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 4, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> LOL - I swear, I think you just make this stuff up as you go along.  Seriously, do you have a reference to back up your hypothesis?



Look at any of the major reporting measures and it is "cloud computing" that is all the rage. No one is working on pure, windows based programs any more. It is all modular, app inspired/based, objects often with an underlying Linux base and only the bare minimum of true windows programming of any type as that tends to limit the market and require custom rewrites for other platforms. The old Java "write once - read anywhere" idea never quite jelled but that concept is what drives developers now. 

Writing to the ever changing and unstable Windows and all its many versions is a nightmare. Today it's write once and get it on as many platforms / as much varied hardware as possible. The Windows legacy isn't good at that - it wants everything to be largely Windows-centric and then adapted to (usually) limited ability t run elsewhere. A true dead end & non-productive way to go.


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 4, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Look at any of the major reporting measures and it is "cloud computing" that is all the rage. No one is working on pure, windows based programs any more.



So, now you're referring to the application.  When you responded with your previous post, you were referring to the corporate desktop.  Which one are you talking about?


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 4, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> So, now you're referring to the application.  When you responded with your previous post, you were referring to the corporate desktop.  Which one are you talking about?



Sorry, applications. There is no doubt that the current overwhelming majority of business desktops are Windows based. However they are NOT moving to Win8 anytime soon and likely never will. The mix of XP & Win7 is likely the last that will be as dominant and in fact the idea of a desktop or even laptop pc may have already come and gone. The hardware & OS will likely migrate toward thin client / cloud type and few if any local applications, files or huge and powerful hardware boxes as Window demands.  That change is not entirely here yet but will likely be within 5 years or less.


----------



## hypnotiq (Dec 4, 2012)

Most large enterprises aren't scheduled to go to Windows 8 anyways, so that isn't an accurate measure anyways. 

Large enterprises do their moves every other OS.

Windows XP - Winodws 7 - Windows 8vNext - etc.

Large corporations also do not like to piece meal their IT environment, which means they are running Exchange Server, SQL Server, Sharepoint, etc.

Windows 8 can run effectively on the same hardware that was the recommended HW for Windows Vista/Windows 7. In fact, the recommended HW was lowered in Windows 7 because of the improvements on perf that took place.

So the Windows client isn't going anywhere.


----------



## Elan (Dec 4, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> Most large enterprises aren't scheduled to go to Windows 8 anyways, so that isn't an accurate measure anyways.
> 
> Large enterprises do their moves every other OS.
> 
> ...



  Yep.  We just recently completed the migration from XP to 7.  In fact, until about 4 months ago, I had an XP box and a Red Hat box under my desk.  Now it's just the Linux box with Win7 emulation.  

  I think a lot of folks tend to underestimate how ingrained Windows is for large businesses and how much inertia must be overcome to change.  Sure, there are smaller companies issuing iPads and Android tablets, and even some large companies.  But those large companies typically aren't _replacing_ their employee's Windows desktops -- they're augmenting them.  

  For the record, I'm not dismissing the possibility that the business world might look totally different 10 to 20 years from now.  But just because Windows8 is out today doesn't mean every corporation will be running it tomorrow.


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 4, 2012)

Elan said:


> For the record, I'm not dismissing the possibility that the business world might look totally different 10 to 20 years from now. But just because Windows8 is out today doesn't mean every corporation will be running it tomorrow.


 
I think we'd do well just to keep the timeframe to Windows 8.  Nobody has a clue 10 to 20 years from now what will happen.  I'm thinking that Windows 8 is going to end up doing a lot better than it's initial reviews.  The faster performance alone will be enough to carry it forward. 

Every time Microsoft does an upgrade you see and hear the same moans and groans.


----------



## VacationForever (Dec 4, 2012)

See what do I know?  I did not even know the Windows 8 phone is now available.  I have been looking forward to it.. plus their tablet.  For our business, our laptops are all on Windows 7 and we are planning on upgrading to Windows 8 in the next 6 months.  Long Live Microsoft!   I do not even own Microsoft stocks.


----------



## hypnotiq (Dec 4, 2012)

sptung said:


> I did not even know the Windows 8 phone is now available.  I have been looking forward to it.



I have the HTC 8x. Even though the Lumia 920 is the flagship phone, I like this one better. Its thinner and doesn't feel as big in the hands.  You lose out on the better camera of the Lumia but the 8x does a pretty good job and I use a real camera for photos anyways.


----------



## VacationForever (Dec 4, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> I have the HTC 8x. Even though the Lumia 920 is the flagship phone, I like this one better. Its thinner and doesn't feel as big in the hands.  You lose out on the better camera of the Lumia but the 8x does a pretty good job and I use a real camera for photos anyways.



With the info that I picked up from TUG this morning we just had a BOD meeting over lunch and decided that I will pilot Windows 8 phone to see if we will move everyone over to Windows 8 phone.   Guess who is heading over to Verizon this evening.  

BTW, I see that you live in Redmond, WA... if I guess right you work for Microsoft.


----------



## hypnotiq (Dec 4, 2012)

sptung said:


> With the info that I picked up from TUG this morning we just had a BOD meeting over lunch and decided that I will pilot Windows 8 phone to see if we will move everyone over to Windows 8 phone.   Guess who is heading over to Verizon this evening.
> 
> BTW, I see that you live in Redmond, WA... if I guess right you work for Microsoft.



Since you're on Verizon, I'll recommend the 8x over the Lumia 820.
Here's the comparison chart. http://www.wpcentral.com/updated-comparison-guide-windows-phone-8-devices

The Samsung Ativ looks like a good candiate but wont be out till sometime this month, so I havent played with it yet.

Let me know if you have any questions about the phone or want any tips/tricks. 

And yes, I work for Microsoft. I've been part of the Windows team for the last 13 years.


----------



## Beefnot (Dec 4, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> I have the HTC 8x. Even though the Lumia 920 is the flagship phone, I like this one better. Its thinner and doesn't feel as big in the hands.  You lose out on the better camera of the Lumia but the 8x does a pretty good job and I use a real camera for photos anyways.



A colleague forwarded me some night photos w/o the flash that he took with his Lumia 920 vs. those he took with the Lumia 800 and the iphone 4s. Holy crap. It was unbelievable. Unbelievable I tell you. He says they size and weight criticisms are way overblown. I haven't checked out any of the new phones in person yet since I cannot upgrade until July of next year.

When is the version 7.8 upgrade coming to us legacy WP7 owners?


----------



## hypnotiq (Dec 4, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> When is the version 7.8 upgrade coming to us legacy WP7 owners?



January is I believe is when its slated to go out.


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 4, 2012)

sptung said:


> BTW, I see that you live in Redmond, WA... if I guess right you work for Microsoft.


 
If so, according to some on this thread, he better get his resume updated...


----------



## scrapngen (Dec 4, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> A colleague forwarded me some night photos w/o the flash that he took with his Lumia 920 vs. those he took with the Lumia 800 and the iphone 4s. Holy crap. It was unbelievable. Unbelievable I tell you. He says they size and weight criticisms are way overblown. I haven't checked out any of the new phones in person yet since I cannot upgrade until July of next year.
> 
> When is the version 7.8 upgrade coming to us legacy WP7 owners?



My daughter (smaller hands, freshman in high school, 5' 4" frame) is fine with the size of the Lumia 920. She "upgraded" when she sat on her old phone and broke it. Neither of us notice the weight difference much, but it does feel bigger in your hand. 

I personally kind of like the size of my smaller Samsung. My hands/fingers are very long, but not wide. I find the size of the 920 kind of awkward, but the camera might make up for it. And the screen really looks bigger, so reading emails/internet just seems easier. I just haven't made up my mind.   Right now I'm happy with what I have, and figure I'll "save" my upgrade until I need it, then make a decision.


----------



## VacationForever (Dec 5, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> If so, according to some on this thread, he better get his resume updated...



Nah, he will do just fine.  There is no competition in the business space...


----------



## Clemson Fan (Dec 5, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> IMO, this is a good reason why there is slower adoption of Windows 8 than Windows 7.
> 
> Everyone remembers the nightmare that was Vista. Which means everyone was already long awaiting its replacement. So when 7 came out, people were quick to ditch Vista.
> 
> ...



I think this is spot on, especially about Vista!  I hated Vista with a passion!  It was such a bad OS that I essentially gave away 2 new computers (one desktop and one laptop) that had Vista.  I can't tell you how many wasted hours and heartache and lost data (this was before I had Carbonite) that damn OS cost me!  I was so mad at MS that after I gave away my computer I went out and got my first iMac which is still our primary home computer.  

Between Vista and Millennium Edition I swore I would never go back to MS again in my home.  All of my office computers were strictly on XP only for the longest time.  

Then, after Windows 7 was out for about a year I gradually migrated over to it and I like it a lot.  In fact, I actually prefer Windows 7 over OSX.  I have a macbook air with Windows 7 installed on bootcamp that I use probably 90% of the time over OSX.  I really only go over to OSX to use iPhoto and iMovie which are excellent programs.

It will be awhile, if ever, before I migrate over to Windows 8.  I have to know for sure it's not another ME or Vista.  Fool me once (ME), shame on MS.  Fool me twice (Vista), shame on me.  I won't be an early adopter and potentially take a 3rd sucker punch.


----------



## Beefnot (Dec 5, 2012)

Clemson Fan;1392962
It will be awhile said:
			
		

> I think you mean: Fool me once, shame on ME, fool me twice, shame on me.


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Dec 5, 2012)

Elan said:


> Yep.  We just recently completed the migration from XP to 7.  In fact, until about 4 months ago, I had an XP box and a Red Hat box under my desk.  Now it's just the Linux box with Win7 emulation.
> 
> I think a lot of folks tend to underestimate how ingrained Windows is for large businesses and how much inertia must be overcome to change.  Sure, there are smaller companies issuing iPads and Android tablets, and even some large companies.  But those large companies typically aren't _replacing_ their employee's Windows desktops -- they're augmenting them.
> 
> For the record, I'm not dismissing the possibility that the business world might look totally different 10 to 20 years from now.  But just because Windows8 is out today doesn't mean every corporation will be running it tomorrow.



Exactly.  Well done.


----------



## persia (Dec 5, 2012)

I suspect Windows 7 will have as long a run as XP did.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 5, 2012)

persia said:


> I suspect Windows 7 will have as long a run as XP did.



And that Win8 will make us long for the "success" of Vista.


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 5, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> And that Win8 will make us long for the "success" of Vista.


 
I must've missed the previous TUG discussion on Windows 8.  What are the reasons it is going to fail?  

I know the new interface has been unpopular, but people will adjust to those kind of things.  They've made a noticeable difference on the startup and it requires no extra hardware resources than previous versions.  I don't see Windows 8 failing.


----------



## Elan (Dec 5, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> I think we'd do well just to keep the timeframe to Windows 8.  Nobody has a clue 10 to 20 years from now what will happen.



  True, but in this crowd it's always best to CYA.


----------



## Kal (Dec 5, 2012)

From a consumer viewpoint, any new PC will have Win8 installed.  Thus, it will be important to at least understand Win8 or consider the upgrade.  Win7 is a remarkable OS but even today it is already in the rear view mirror.  I can't see a situation where MS devotes many staff resources to enhancing Win7.  It will become XP where you don't even remember the differences in OS.

On its face Win8 is vastly different in design, concept, look and feel.  However, if a person has a love affair with Win7 you can very easily configure Win8 to have the look, feel and functionality EXACTLY the same as Win7.  In the "desktop setup" you won't even see any difference but one click away is the new system.  You can go back and forth as you desire.

I installed Win8 as a dual boot with Win7.  At first I very much doubted that I wanted to go thru the Win8 learning curve or even leave it on my PC.  Now after 4 weeks I rarely, if ever, use Win7.

From a corporate viewpoint, I would not want to suffer the costs of conducting Win8 training for the PC user labor force.  But now to complete the migration, all the IT manager would have to do is set up Win8 in the "Win7 configuration" then image that configuration onto every person's PC.  Any training would be relatively minor with little or no loss of productivity.

My recommendation is to move onto Win8 or you too will be in the rear view mirror.


----------



## scrapngen (Dec 5, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> I must've missed the previous TUG discussion on Windows 8.  What are the reasons it is going to fail?
> 
> I know the new interface has been unpopular, but people will adjust to those kind of things.  They've made a noticeable difference on the startup and it requires no extra hardware resources than previous versions.  I don't see Windows 8 failing.



You're responding to a post by someone who believes everything Microsoft is basically flawed, doomed to fail, etc. etc. There was no general consensus on TUG of an epic fail, just one person's outlook...     However, I am sure he can fill you in on his perspective.

Actually, you can start from about post #26 on,  to view his take on Windows 8 and the responses....


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 5, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> I must've missed the previous TUG discussion on Windows 8.  What are the reasons it is going to fail?
> 
> I know the new interface has been unpopular, but people will adjust to those kind of things.  They've made a noticeable difference on the startup and it requires no extra hardware resources than previous versions.  I don't see Windows 8 failing.



First off anyone who says they "know" what the pc/tablet/smartphone landscape will be even 6 months from now and certainly a year or two down the road is blowing big time smoke. It is impossible to predict the path this industry will take. But trends are often obvious and based on those you can make a fairly good guess as to where things may be headed.

And yes, as noted, I have absolutely no love or respect for Microsoft due to their history and poor products and little more for Apple as they too want control over everything, as well as charging outrageous prices for their products. 

With that said the era of the high powered, resource heavy, "thick client" type PC/laptop loaded with local software and data is, after many years of "impending" death, now actually seeing a dramatic decline in sales and adoption of new product. In fact for nearly two years the sales of those now legacy type machines have been on an ever steeper decline as tablets and smartphones - which can do much of what a pc/laptop can and with much better battery life and far fewer local resources (thus lighter, smaller sizes) - have exploded in use and popularity. 

The reason this has finally occurred is the "cloud" (your files and possibly your programs are not stored locally but in the ether - you just use it with any device anyplace you want rather than being tied to a pc/mac client of your own) has finally caught on with both businesses and consumers.  The monolithic OS and big programs have given way to to small apps and tiny, extremely portable OS (the dominate one a relative newcomer called Android along with the only slightly older IOS from Apple - both with strong Linux heritage) that can run on equally tiny devices.  

That doesn't mean Windows will disappear now or anytime soon. It does mean that in all likelihood the last dominating version of Windows was Win7. The Win8 model doesn't unify Windows or its programs but rather splits it into two or more camps that cannot easily get along!  And the new interface - little more than a kludge on top of patches to Win7 - has been universally panned as unneeded on the Desktop and inferior to the existing IOS & Android interfaces on non-x86 devices. MS has a poor history of adapting to new formats and usually ends up just reworking its existing and super inefficient & bloated software to a new model. But the ability to do that appears to have ended as it's ties to the Intel architecture demands that a totally different code be used for the faster, lighter ARM environments that most of the smaller devices utilize.  They try to make it look alike but it is actually unrelated & requires rewrite and often differing file formats.

If you are going to make that dramatic a change anyway why stick to the old school that has way outlived whatever life it managed to have (mostly by FUD & illegal tactics rather than any technical superiority) rather than moving to the new as embodied in Android / IOS and that ilk?  The overwhelming evidence is that the new is fast replacing the old and that corporations, always slower due to legacy issues & security, are also leaving the Windows centric fold and moving to smaller, object oriented applets & cloud services that make no real use of Windows functions & features. If you have a good browser whats around it doesn't matter anymore. The true nightmare for Microsoft.

So to get your day to day work done right now a legacy PC with XP or especially Win7 will do it. For the leading edge you want to be in the Android (or IOS/Apple) world. There is ZERO need to move to Win8 as it will likely be left behind anyway and the things you NEED to do with those old systems works best on Win7 / XP and terribly on Win8!  Why learn the new you don't want, need or are likely to use in a few years? Just get the newer & better option(s). 

Being "left behind" with Win7 isn't an issue as companies do not change over quickly & support for Win7 will be around at least to 2020 or beyond. Well before then you should have moved on to a new model of who knows exactly what but it's not likely to be Windows (as we know it) of any type. It is highly likely to come from Google, Apple or some new, yet unknown rising up as MS once did to be the "new thing".  MS is now the "old way" and really not relevant except to run legacy software. 

Why has Windows finally failed? Not secure, not object oriented, bloated, old, not Web based, overpriced and carrying far to much integration with Intel among many other reasons.  Time to look ahead not behind. Oh, sales are miserable for the MS tablet and Win8 just for more proof of concept of a changing world order. Carry on.


----------



## Beefnot (Dec 5, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> First off anyone who says they "know" what the pc/tablet/smartphone landscape will be even 6 months from now and certainly a year or two down the road is blowing big time smoke.



Anyone that is, except you.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 5, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> Anyone that is, except you.



I include myself as I have been known on more than one prediction to have the specifics wrong yet overall have the general change or no change coming almost always in the correct camp. So to say products/os/features xyz will replace Win may be off but so its FGT that wins - the key was Win, or whatever the subject is, that lost & that was the core issue not the exact replacement(s) didn't matter its just as dead regardless. Windows as the leader & direction is DEAD. What evolves to lead I don't know yet nor does anyone else.

It is joke to listen to the fan boys or the Gartner proclaim "the winners". They haven't a clue.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 6, 2012)

Yet another in a LONG line of articles on the trend away from PC's. 

Doesn't support the  Win forever / Win8 crowd I'm afraid. They give far more credence to the MS tablet than I do but that's why they are called opinions and not facts. Time will tell.


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 6, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Yet another in a LONG line of articles on the trend away from PC's.
> 
> Doesn't support the Win forever / Win8 crowd I'm afraid. They give far more credence to the MS tablet than I do but that's why they are called opinions and not facts. Time will tell.


 
I don't think anyone is questioning your premise about the trend away from PCs.  I'm definitely not.

I'm questioning your continued predictions about the doom of Microsoft.  As I said earlier, the company is sitting on $60B in cash, it will adjust.  And Windows will continue being a money maker for the company.  We'll see, but Microsoft is still the big gorilla in the technology sector, much to your dismay.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 6, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> I don't think anyone is questioning your premise about the trend away from PCs.  I'm definitely not.
> 
> I'm questioning your continued predictions about the doom of Microsoft.  As I said earlier, the company is sitting on $60B in cash, it will adjust.  And Windows will continue being a money maker for the company.  We'll see, but Microsoft is still the big gorilla in the technology sector, much to your dismay.



The doom is the life after being the top dog reduced to has been and merely hanging around status. See Wordperfect as a prime example among many. MS won't disappear but they will become largely meaningless to the vast majority of the industry and users. To those that loved the power they had and did virtually anything to keep it for 20+ years it's worse than death. MS fits that to a "t".


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 6, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> The doom is the life after being the top dog reduced to has been and merely hanging around status. See Wordperfect as a prime example among many. MS won't disappear but they will become largely meaningless to the vast majority of the industry and users. To those that loved the power they had and did virtually anything to keep it for 20+ years it's worse than death. MS fits that to a "t".


 
I am very familiar with the Wordperfect days.  I've worked in the computer industry since the early 80s.  Wordperfect was nowhere near the titan that Microsoft is today.  I think you keep seeing Microsoft in a very limited scope.  They are currently dominant in the OS, Database, App Development, Gaming, and Networking (probably others that I can't even think of).  We need to talk about more than phones and tablets here.

There is a big difference in declining and dead.  I'll go along with you when you say they may be "declining" in some of those areas, but they are far from "dead".  And as I mentioned earlier, with $60B in cash, that cash position alone, would put them in the 12th position of all businesses in the tech sector.


----------



## Elan (Dec 6, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> I am very familiar with the Wordperfect days.  I've worked in the computer industry since the early 80s.  Wordperfect was nowhere near the titan that Microsoft is today.  I think you keep seeing Microsoft in a very limited scope.  They are currently dominant in the OS, Database, App Development, Gaming, and Networking (probably others that I can't even think of).  We need to talk about more than phones and tablets here.
> 
> There is a big difference in declining and dead.  I'll go along with you when you say they may be "declining" in some of those areas, but they are far from "dead".  And as I mentioned earlier, with $60B in cash, that cash position alone, would put them in the 12th position of all businesses in the tech sector.



  I agree.  The current trajectory might not be great, but with the aforementioned inertia and the cash on hand, MS has plenty of time to change direction.

  What really gets me is why doesn't MS use some of their cash to subsidize adoption of their new products?  I mean if Google can get LG to build a cutting edge Android phone and sell it for $299, why can't MS do something similar with Nokia and WP8?  Why isn't the Surface $299?  

  I know the idea is to make money, but when you're late to the game you've got to do something innovative to capture market.


----------



## hypnotiq (Dec 6, 2012)

You guy need to stop feeding the troll (timeos2).  He suffers from the dunning-kurger effect. He's that same guy a decade ago that was screaming the same nonsense. Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it "fact". :hysterical:

His comments further articulate he has absolutely no understanding of the enterprise market or what it is about. In addition, his comments about Windows 8 show he has no actual understanding of the new OS as well. 

And he's still trying to pull the security arguement with Microsoft, which just further shows how out of touch w/reality he is. 

Journalists used to have to have some sort of credentials to be published. With the advent of the internet and blogging, any moron with a KB can spew their uninformed, WAG.  

As far as the hardware market, people said Microsoft didnt stand against Sony back when we launched Xbox a decade ago. It was Sonys playground and we had no business in it. We would fail, etc and so on. Look how that turned out. Microsoft is now the largest player in that space. Microsoft sold 750,000 new Xboxes over the past Thanksgiving weekend.

Microsoft has had its share of HW flops for various reason but calling the Surface dead already is just short-sighted.  

As far as Nokia and WP8. The 920 is being sold for $99, $200 cheaper than that LG. How much cheaper do you want it?  In addition, the deals are between the OEMs and the carriers. Microsoft doesn't actually get a say in those deals. Which is why many think it would be a good idea to buy NOK so they can leverage those deals with carriers.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 6, 2012)

"Selling" the phones or tablets at giveaway or paying people to take them (like an unwanted/unsellable timeshare) still won't make them successful. It isn't price it is what people want. Windows Phone / Surface aren't it!  Nor is Win8 in any form it seems.  Fan boys excluded of course . Tough for those used to dominating to take, I know. 

Saying it ain't so isn't any more effective than saying it is. Six months or a year from now will tell and by then there won't be opinions of how things will go it will be the results that can't be argued by either side. You know which way I (and most others it seems) feel it will play out. We'll have to see. I'm not concerned but I know who should be.


----------



## geoand (Dec 6, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> It is joke to listen to the fan boys or the Gartner proclaim "the winners". They haven't a clue.



Is there a term that describes the opposite of fan boys?

The thing I notice is that for years, certain dislike has been expressed about Microsoft and after a few years Apple was included in the same way.

I think that most people actually appreciate these two companies because these people realize that if it wasn't for MS and Apple, they wouldn't be using computers as they do now.  The ease of use is important to most.  The fact that people paid money to use either speaks volumes about the appreciation of the ease of use.  Yes, there are many, many options out there from the beginning, including the free software but people didn't like the idea of having to pay nothing and then depend upon who for support.


----------



## Elan (Dec 6, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> As far as Nokia and WP8. The 920 is being sold for $99, $200 cheaper than that LG. How much cheaper do you want it?  In addition, the deals are between the OEMs and the carriers. Microsoft doesn't actually get a say in those deals. Which is why many think it would be a good idea to buy NOK so they can leverage those deals with carriers.



  The price on the LG is $299 unlocked -- meaning not subsidized, no contract, out-the-door, whatever you want to call it; no further financial commitment.  If I could buy a Lumia 920 for $99 unlocked, I'd own one already.  A 920 unlocked is over $600, more than twice as much as the Nexus 4 (LG).


----------



## hypnotiq (Dec 6, 2012)

Elan said:


> The price on the LG is $299 unlocked -- meaning not subsidized, no contract, out-the-door, whatever you want to call it; no further financial commitment.  If I could buy a Lumia 920 for $99 unlocked, I'd own one already.  A 920 unlocked is over $600, more than twice as much as the Nexus 4 (LG).



Ah Ok, my bad. I didnt realize you meant unlocked. 

This is why there are two rumors that either MS will build its own Surface Phone or it will buy Nokia. So things like that can be done.


----------



## Elan (Dec 6, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> Ah Ok, my bad. I didnt realize you meant unlocked.
> 
> This is why there are two rumors that either MS will build its own Surface Phone or it will buy Nokia. So things like that can be done.



  No problem. 

  The strange thing is Nokia has always built fantastic phones that were unlocked.  It was a large portion of their market.  I guess that's why I find it amusing that MS didn't work with Nokia to build a lower priced off-contract non-flagship WP8 device.  As I said before, I'd love to try WP8 while upgrading my phone hardware, but with the $299 Nexus 4 out there, it's going to be tough to switch.

  I do wish MS would buy Nokia.  It would be a really smart thing to do.


----------



## hypnotiq (Dec 6, 2012)

Elan said:


> I do wish MS would buy Nokia.  It would be a really smart thing to do.



So do I because I bought a bunch of NOK stock when it dropped to $1.90, hoping we would acquire it. A gamble I would love to pay off. 

NOK just landed the deal with China Mobile too and the Nokia 920T.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 6, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> So do I because I bought a bunch of NOK stock when it dropped to $1.90, hoping we would acquire it. A gamble I would love to pay off.
> 
> NOK just landed the deal with China Mobile too and the Nokia 920T.



At least you've already doubled your investment! (That's more than I can say about my MS stock...)


----------



## Sandi_Roger (Dec 7, 2012)

We checked out Windows 8 at Best Buy yesterday and both of us were impressed. I love it on the desktop with a large touch screen. This will be a winner in the future for both the consumer and business markets as applications are developed to take advantage of the touch screen.  I can't wait to say good-bye to the mouse and sore tendons. 

Roger


----------



## persia (Dec 7, 2012)

The 60 billion in cash is probably the saving grace for M$, Windows 8 and Windows RT are unmitigated disasters for Microsoft, the Surface is frankly ugly and not as nice as the competition, but with $60 billion you have the chance to fail and come back from that failure stronger.  

M$ needs to buy a design company, someone that knows aesthetics, Windows RT needs some cleaning up, they need to get rid of that ugly legacy desktop buried in there and just concentrate on the Modern desktop.  They need better cameras.  The keyboard in a cover is a neat idea, they just need to make it look less PC and more Apple.  People put up with ugly desktop PCs because largely you put it under you desk and never look at it again.  The tablet is always in front of your face...


----------



## hypnotiq (Dec 7, 2012)

Using M$ just makes you look immature and you lose any credibility with anything you have to say after that point.

BTW, how is that Black Friday "fire sale" prediction working out for you? LOL


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 7, 2012)

A bit touchy it seems. Hit a nerve? Or lack of sales getting to them? Anyway..   "The Empire Falls by the Wayside" is the current title. Carry on.


----------



## geekette (Dec 7, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> I am very familiar with the Wordperfect days.  I've worked in the computer industry since the early 80s.  Wordperfect was nowhere near the titan that Microsoft is today.  I think you keep seeing Microsoft in a very limited scope.  They are currently dominant in the OS, Database, App Development, Gaming, and Networking (probably others that I can't even think of).  We need to talk about more than phones and tablets here.
> 
> There is a big difference in declining and dead.  I'll go along with you when you say they may be "declining" in some of those areas, but they are far from "dead".  And as I mentioned earlier, with $60B in cash, that cash position alone, would put them in the 12th position of all businesses in the tech sector.


Far from dead, indeed.  Some of us don't give a crap about gadgets, it's not what I look to MS for.  

they embraced the developer community early on and made it possible for people like me to become software engineers.  I'm not interested in arguing database platforms, but I will guess that MS SQL server is in use in more companies than Oracle or IBM or any os product.  There are reasons for that, and I will agree that it's not always because MS SQL is seen as the Superior Product.  

MS has made a great investment in the BI stack, so we don't have to go piecing together items from other vendors, I have it all right here.  I can go from source data design to populated cube without launching any other app (the users here do not generally use MS tools tho there are several available so that a user community never has to leave MS territory if they don't want to).  

I now work in data warehousing and business intelligence ("Big Data" is not new, has not been new for decades, it's simply buzz and recognition that, gee, maybe we should do something with all this data we've been collecting?)  MS is not the only player in this space, probably not even the best, but when the chips are down, it is awfully nice to not have to worry about factoring out incompatibilities - MS stuff "plays nice together" and most of us in the trenches count on that.  

I learned a long time ago that "thinking like Microsoft" is the fast track to troubleshooting, and I'm fine with that - It Works.  If you start mixing os and database and apps on top of that, it can be a quagmire and No One Can Help You because Custom Configuration is just that, and your own damned problem to fix.  been there, will not revisit.

One could call me a Microsoft Cheerleader and I'll own that.  I can't think of any other company that so fully supported development.  I dunno, there could be a lot of "app for that" support these days but I don't follow the lightweight app market cuz I serve the enterprise.  and really, there were always "apps for that" - shareware, freeware, this stuff has been around for ages, just not on your phone.  

I will likely never buy any hardware from MS because that's not what they are good at, but we are here preparing to move to the 2012 db platform.  Am I worried?  not a bit, because I have been down the MS migration pathway many times for many of their products.  There will be work, but, I will know in advance what modifications I need to make.  go piecemeal across vendors, and good luck with that project plan of landmines.

Slam MS all you want, but I am very clear on who allowed me to butter my bread all these years, and I'm not changing stripes.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 7, 2012)

geekette said:


> Slam MS all you want, but I am very clear on who allowed me to butter my bread all these years, and I'm not changing stripes.



Well said. Microsoft stuff is "good enough", and frankly that's all I've ever expected it to be. It works. And just like you, I've made a lot of $$$ helping others make sense of that Microsoft software in improving their businesses. But, I don't *like* Microsoft software. I *enjoy* working with my Mac and software written with the Mac UI guidelines (for consistency), and just have more fun with it. These days most Linux programmers seem to have MacBooks with them, since it works great for that along with OS X (oh, and you can run any (recent) favor of Windows on it as well). 

The Surface is the most interesting product out of Redmond in some time, in my opinion. I really hope it succeeds. 

Whether Microsoft will exist in the future is a ridiculous conversation to have. Microsoft has many business units, some of which are quite profitable. I'm sure they'll be around for a long, long time. It's just the question of what form that will take that we don't know.


----------



## ondeadlin (Dec 7, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> Using M$ just makes you look immature and you lose any credibility with anything you have to say after that point.



So does calling people a troll and other names.  Real weak IMO, and you've done it multiple times on this thread.  It's not how things are typically done on TUG.  The cartoon was also a disrespectful personal attack.  That stuff might fit the tone and ethos of other boards you post on, but it's out of step here IMO.  And, perhaps worst of, it's not actually funny.

And it was my prediction on the Black Friday sale.  I was wrong, and I'm more than willing to admit it.  But I'm still pretty comfortable with my prediction that it was priced wrong and is on the Zune track unless something changes and changes pretty quickly.

The lead in a recent PC World article:



> Middling reviews and limited distribution may be putting a damper on sales of Microsoft's Surface tablet, according to brokerage firm Detwiler Fenton.
> 
> The Boston-based firm estimates that Microsoft will sell between 500,000 and 600,000 Surface with Windows RT tablets in the December quarter. The fact that Surface is only available through Microsoft's online store and small number of retail shops is a big factor, the firm said, and mixed reviews haven't helped.



http://www.pcworld.com/article/2018...not-expected-to-top-600-000-this-quarter.html

The best thing about the Surface has been the ad campaign.  It's extremely well done.  It's the biggest thing driving sales IMO.  That's one way cash on hand can help - the company can fund good ad campaigns and then put them into heavy rotation.

To Microsoft's credit, they're now apparently going to allow retailers to sell the Surface.  That's a start, but without a price change I just can't see much changing.

As I said previously, I use and like MS products ... I just find myself using them on the Mac OS more and more these days.  Certainly not a good sign for MS.  I work at a company where employees are allowed to buy their own phones and tablets with a company subsidy - probably 95 percent of the tablet purchases are iPads and more than 2/3rds of the phones.  Now, that said, I think Windows 7 was the Windows I've been waiting for for 10 years.  It's the best OS MS has ever produced IMO.  But I only know that because work paid for it and it's on my work PC ... and it's still not good enough for me to consider giving up Apple OS at home, particularly given my other Apple devices.

I don't think MS is going away, but outside of Office and Windows, it's a marginal and often unfocused player in every other market ... and as everyone knows, Windows dominance has been on a slow-but-steady decline.  Those are real issues.  $60 billion in the bank is nice, but it will only slow the inevitable unless something significant changes.


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 7, 2012)

ondeadlin said:


> I don't think MS is going away, *but outside of Office and Windows, it's a marginal and often unfocused player in every other market* ... and as everyone knows, Windows dominance has been on a slow-but-steady decline.


 
Ever heard of XBox, Windows Server, Microsoft Exchange, .NET, or SQL Server? I would guess not.


----------



## ondeadlin (Dec 7, 2012)

That's a fair criticism.  Here's what I should have said (and what I mean):  "outside of Office and Windows, it's not a dominant player in any other market, and it's often an unfocused player in those markets."

XBox is a great example.  It's a great system, but it exists in a gaming world where there are a ton of options.  You're not just competing with the latest iteration of the PS and the Wii, you're competing with PC platforms, and Mac platforms, and handhelds like the DS and Touch, and web-based games, etc.  It's like you're Honda in the car world - nothing to be ashamed about, but more filling a niche than doing something on the scale of the old MS or the current Apple or Google.


----------



## Beefnot (Dec 8, 2012)

ondeadlin said:


> So does calling people a troll and other names.  Real weak IMO, and you've done it multiple times on this thread.  It's not how things are typically done on TUG.  The cartoon was also a disrespectful personal attack.  That stuff might fit the tone and ethos of other boards you post on, but it's out of step here IMO.  And, perhaps worst of, it's not actually funny



Calling people a troll works on any forum, even TUG, if the recipient of the attack is actually a troll. And when it comes to MSFT, timeos2 is a troll. Plain and simple.


----------



## Beefnot (Dec 8, 2012)

ondeadlin said:


> That's a fair criticism.  Here's what I should have said (and what I mean):  "outside of Office and Windows, it's not a dominant player in any other market, and it's often an unfocused player in those markets."
> 
> XBox is a great example.  It's a great system, but it exists in a gaming world where there are a ton of options.  You're not just competing with the latest iteration of the PS and the Wii, you're competing with PC platforms, and Mac platforms, and handhelds like the DS and Touch, and web-based games, etc.  It's like you're Honda in the car world - nothing to be ashamed about, but more filling a niche than doing something on the scale of the old MS or the current Apple or Google.



In gaming, MSFT is not dominant? How do you define dominant?


----------



## Talent312 (Dec 8, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> Calling people a troll works on any forum, even TUG, if the recipient of the attack is actually a troll. And when it comes to MSFT, timeos2 is a troll. Plain and simple.



It may be time to close this thread as it seems to have devolved into little more than ad hominem attacks which does nothing to advance the conversation. A debate over who is or is not a troll is inappropriate. It makes those who participarte look small and mean-spirited.

From "Bambi" -- If you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at all.

The issue remains:
In a future dominated by mobile, internet-based computing and cloud storage, is MSFT destined to be just another player who watches Apple + Google make off with most of the winnings, it's role reduced to an also-ran?

It may still be the elephant in the room in many areas, but the handwriting on the wall in this one seems clear as day.
.

.


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 8, 2012)

Talent312 said:


> The issue remains:
> In a future dominated by mobile, internet-based computing and cloud storage, is MSFT destined to be just another player who watches Apple + Google make off with most of the winnings, it's role reduced to an also-ran?
> 
> It may still be the elephant in the room in many areas, but the handwriting on the wall in this one seems clear as day.
> ...


 
This is the problem I have with many on this thread. The computing world is far more vast than "mobile, internet-based computing and storage", as you say above. Those other areas I mentioned in my previous response are worth billions and billions.

Five years from now, people and business will still be buying PCs and laptops. And want to guess what OS will be on them? 

Xbox will still be dominant, Microsoft will still be running small business and corporate networks, Microsoft will still be driving business communication and emails (through Exchange), SQL server will continue to be a major force in database, and programming will be done .NET.

To those that want to say Microsoft will be "dead", it's just not going to happen.  And again, with their cash position, they can be the gorilla in any area that they choose.


----------



## ondeadlin (Dec 8, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> Calling people a troll works on any forum, even TUG, if the recipient of the attack is actually a troll.



Generally there's no name-calling on TUG, regardless of what goes on elsewhere.  It's one of the best things about this place.


----------



## ondeadlin (Dec 8, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> In gaming, MSFT is not dominant? How do you define dominant?



The XBox 360 and the PS3 have almost identical units sold.  Both were outsold by the last generation Wii.  The Nintendo DS almost doubled the units of all three of the consoles.  And, as I said, games are currently played on a variety of other platforms, more so than ever.  XBox is a very strong competitor in a very competitive market.  The PS4 and 720 are on the horizon, but no matter how good either is, I don't think it will emerge as a "dominant" product the way Windows is in the business environment or Apple is in the tablet market.


----------



## Beefnot (Dec 8, 2012)

ondeadlin said:


> Generally there's no name-calling on TUG, regardless of what goes on elsewhere.  It's one of the best things about this place.



I don't have any ill will toward him at all, and I sort of enjoy looking forward to his anti-MSFT and anti-developer schtick when I see a thread pop up that appears to be a layup for him.  I think it gets under hypnotiq's skin a bit because he works for MSFT and/or thoroughly enjoys MSFT products, so hearing persistent tirades and open rooting against the company may be too much for him. Although timeos2 trolls, it's all good to me. I like spirited debates, be they driven by factual analysis or contemptuous fantasy.


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 8, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> I don't have any ill will toward him at all, and I sort of enjoy looking forward to his anti-MSFT and anti-developer schtick when I see a thread pop up that appears to be a layup for him. I think it gets under hypnotiq's skin a bit because he works for MSFT and/or thoroughly enjoys MSFT products, so hearing persistent tirades and open rooting against the company may be too much for him. Although timeos2 trolls, it's all good to me. I like spirited debates, be they driven by factual analysis or contemptuous fantasy.


 
Exactly my thoughts.  I enjoy a good healthy discussion, regardless of whether I agree or not.


----------



## MULTIZ321 (Dec 8, 2012)

Microsoft XBox is Winning the Living Room War. Here's Why. - by David M. Ewalt/ Forbes.com

This story appears in the June 25, 2012 issue of Forbes Magazine.


Richard


----------



## geekette (Dec 8, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> This is the problem I have with many on this thread. The computing world is far more vast than "mobile, internet-based computing and storage", as you say above. Those other areas I mentioned in my previous response are worth billions and billions.
> 
> Five years from now, people and business will still be buying PCs and laptops. And want to guess what OS will be on them?
> 
> ...



I'm with you completely.  The home user is just one market, and MSFT does not need to dominate there because they have a major chunk of business IT investment $.  ditto hardware, I'm not at all sure why they dabble there, but, whatever.  Another biz unit that may or may not turn profit.  

I have zero knowledge in the gaming console market.

I'm not sure people know that MSFT has a very active donation program also, and for that reason, many non-profits can run their business.  And grow their own internal support, because, like I said, MS stuff plays well together.  get your donated workstation seats, set up your donated Exchange install, deploy your donated Office suite, and you are set to do business.  They have donation programs for many of the server products, also, and a host of arcane biz apps.  

techsoup.org is a good resource to pass along to any non-prof in need.  

When .net showed up in, what, 2001?  it really changed the game for their developer base because now one could develop once and deploy that same codebase to multiple platforms.  The CLR really solved a lot of issues for team development as well.  

How many home users had apps running on phones back then?  Plenty of enterprises were able to do it, keeping the execs in the loop, providing portable spreadsheets, charts, email synching, etc.  MS again provided sdks for the CE and Mobile platforms.  The Pocket PC was not a bad product, as those things go, and it was great fun to offer my users portable information in forms they already knew how to use.  Even that is ages ago, 2003-2005 ish?

There is certainly a large upswing in os developers, that started before the Go Go internet bubble a dozen years ago.  MS hasn't disappeared, has not diminished their presence in the business environment.  There are so many reasons for that, but one of them has to be SUPPORT.  Damned few corps want to rely on finding a local consultant that they can trust, but it's not so hard to find someone to help on MS implementations.  

The place I used to work, we had a few Macs for design folks and it was very difficult to find reliable people that could support that environment for us.  Easy to find "a warm body" to bleed us dry and provide more problems than solutions.  This could be a regional anomaly, I don't know.  but when we needed an expert for anything MS, it never took long to get someone in the door.  

This is the other nice thing about MS - you pretty much know when you've hit the limit before you need to call someone with deeper specialization than you have.  It's a bit like the DIY plumber.  Sure, you can poke around at it for days, but you may cause bigger problems than had you simply called the professional as soon as you started thinking "maybe if I just ..."

For MS products large and small, there's an expert nearby for that.  I do not see MS losing the edge in the corp arena.


----------

