# Ideal MPT cost ?



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 22, 2021)

I am going thru my notes and refreshing self on resale.

What is a good MPT to get in at. 

I found on ebay 238,000 PTS WYNDHAM PLANTATION RESORT MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA for around 4.7 MPT


The question I have is should I try to find it lower? What ideal range is considered a good deal? 

My needs for the family during prime ( dealing with kids and school breaks) we need at a minimum 2 bedroom , there is 6 of us total. 

My long term plan is VIP. I currently own one non wyndham 3 bdrm registered in RCI.


----------



## Dave Landry (Jan 22, 2021)

Myrtle Beach is a great place to own as you get ARP at all resorts there. That sounds like a great maintenance fee. I own at Panama City Beach and Bali Hai which are a little lower. I'm assuming you already know that resale points will not get you to vip status and that you will have to purchase points directly from Wyndham if your long term plan is to enter the fixed week into the PIC program?


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 22, 2021)

Dave Landry said:


> Myrtle Beach is a great place to own as you get ARP at all resorts there. That sounds like a great maintenance fee. I own at Panama City Beach and Bali Hai which are a little lower. I'm assuming you already know that resale points will not get you to vip status and that you will have to purchase points directly from Wyndham if your long term plan is to enter the fixed week into the PIC program?



Thank you for the feed back , I was wondering if that was a good price. I was asking about that price so I can keep an lookout.

If I find that one at that price and another later on lower and buy it also, how does it work when the accounts are combined ? Do i still keep the low MPT ? 

Yes PIC was what I was thinking, but before I make that investment, was thinking of getting a first set of points first to see how I like it. Then eventually get points from the developer to go VIP thru pic.


----------



## Dave Landry (Jan 22, 2021)

Very smart idea to try it out first with resale points. Nothing much lost if you have to give it away and at a lower fee resort may even recoup your costs. Especially a place like myrtle where summer months are hard to book without arp.

Yes. The fees stay the same at each individual resort except for the amount they go up each year. The 2 accounts will be listed seperately in your yearly statement with the fees for each one but you will get a bill for the total of both together. Hope that came out understandable. There is a minimum program fee which will be based on the total points owned and not charged on each individual if owning more than one.

Best of luck and happy vacationing. Being smart and cautious while learning the way you are will ensure that you most likely will be happy with it. And if not then not much to lose.


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 22, 2021)

I just found another one for 315K points for 3.07 MPT. I might go for that one to get my foot in the door. Its listed as 315000 deeded at Wyndham Kona Hawaiian Resort - Flexible and Deeded Wyndham Points.

Thoughts?


----------



## Dave Landry (Jan 22, 2021)

That's terrific. My Bali Hai maintenance for this year is $4.21 per thousand. Or course that's not including the.64 per thousand program fee. I always book less than 10 months in advance and sometimes less than a couple months so ARP really doesn't matter to me as much as having the lowest fees.


----------



## ausman (Jan 22, 2021)

Kona I think has MF (maintenance fees) of $5.60 per thousand points. Added to that would be the program fee for resale points of 64c for a total of $6.24 per thousand points ($6.24/K). It is far from 3.07.

What do you meand by MPT.? Is this a purchase price measure.?


----------



## Dave Landry (Jan 22, 2021)

basham said:


> Kona I think has MF (maintenance fees) of $5.60 per thousand points. Added to that would be the program fee for resale points of 64c for a total of $6.24 per thousand points ($6.24/K). It is far from 3.07.
> 
> What do you meand by MPT.? Is this a purchase price measure.?


That's what I've noticed too. There is a one million point contract on eBay right now and doing the math comes out to $6.26 per thousand. I was wondering if he possibly found a converted fixed week contract that was prime before the conversion so converted to a larger number of points making the fee on that one too. Those seem to be far and few between however do pop up occasionally.


----------



## Braindead (Jan 22, 2021)

basham said:


> What do you meand by MPT.? Is this a purchase price measure.?


It must be MF Per Thousand Points. I’ve never seen it that way before either.
Nothing new but definitely a new abbreviation for most of us!


----------



## cbyrne1174 (Jan 22, 2021)

Ninjaneer80 said:


> I am going thru my notes and refreshing self on resale.
> 
> What is a good MPT to get in at.
> 
> ...



Honestly, with the new VIP benefits and unlimited housekeeping going away, it isn't worth the money to be VIP unless you just use 1 three bedroom PIC to get to Bronze. You will run out of housekeeping before you run out of points if you use VIP Silver, Gold or Platinum benefits efficiently. Bronze only costs  49,000 retail + 254,000 PIC points to get the status, so that's a lot easier to get value from.


----------



## Dave Landry (Jan 22, 2021)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Honestly, with the new VIP benefits and unlimited housekeeping going away, it isn't worth the money to be VIP unless you just use 1 three bedroom PIC to get to Bronze. You will run out of housekeeping before you run out of points if you use VIP Silver, Gold or Platinum benefits efficiently. Bronze only costs  49,000 retail + 254,000 PIC points to get the status, so that's a lot easier to get value from.


Great advice! I'm definitely not a fan of the new housekeeping and because of it would never spend anything for vip status unless it was to be added to an existing account with the unlimited housekeeping.


----------



## ausman (Jan 22, 2021)

Dave Landry said:


> That's what I've noticed too. There is a one million point contract on eBay right now and doing the math comes out to $6.26 per thousand. I was wondering if he possibly found a converted fixed week contract that was prime before the conversion so converted to a larger number of points making the fee on that one too. Those seem to be far and few between however do pop up occasionally.



Yes, that is what I would normally think also.

It still seems fishy somehow. From the Wyndham points chart the highest pointed week is a 2 BR Presidential at 350,000 points. From the 2017 MF figures for all Kona fixed weeks the MF was $1,259.23, per 1000 cost would be $3.60. That was it in 2017, there must have been increases in the intervening years.


----------



## Dave Landry (Jan 22, 2021)

basham said:


> Yes, that is what I would normally think also.
> 
> It still seems fishy somehow. From the Wyndham points chart the highest pointed week is a 2 BR Presidential at 350,000 points. From the 2017 MF figures for all Kona fixed weeks the MF was $1,259.23, per 1000 cost would be $3.60. That was it in 2017, there must have been increases in the intervening years.



Amount of points to book a room always stays constant. One of the reasons why Panama City has low fees is because of the higher number of points required to book a room. Maintenance fees are decided by the board each year and voted on so usually they do go up every year. On some rare occasions they will stay the same or go down. Last year mine went down


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 22, 2021)

Sorry for the confusion everyone. I was reviewing notes from a year ago that I learned from the forums.  Please let me know if I was off or wrong on some of my understanding.

I learned to look at how things cost like you mentioned MF per Thousand points. here is the formula I learn from digging thru the forums. The one thing I never really figured out is what you mentioned program fee. I have not factored that in. Should I be adding 64c per 1000 points?


Variables 
Yearly Maint Fee = YMF
Total Wyndham Points = TP
Wyndham points by Thousand (1000) = WPT
Cost Per Point = CPP
Maint Fee Per Thousand (1000) = MPT

*To figure out maint Fee by thousand*
YMF/ TP = CPP * 1000 = MPT

*To compute maint fee by year*
WPT * MPT = YMF



So for the example, I saw on the forum post a property going for 315000 deeded at Wyndham Kona Hawaiian Resort - Flexible and Deeded and yearly maint fees are 968.61.

Using the above formal I calculated out the MPT to be 3.07, and that is not adding on the program fee. In this example how would I add on the program fee and am I doing all this correct so far?


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 22, 2021)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Honestly, with the new VIP benefits and unlimited housekeeping going away, it isn't worth the money to be VIP unless you just use 1 three bedroom PIC to get to Bronze. You will run out of housekeeping before you run out of points if you use VIP Silver, Gold or Platinum benefits efficiently. Bronze only costs  49,000 retail + 254,000 PIC points to get the status, so that's a lot easier to get value from.



thanks for the tip, I am still trying to figure out if its worth it for the family. I do have a 3 bdrm non-wyndham now registered in RCI now. window shopping I think for around the 300K resale range. 

When you say +254PIC points, is that what my non wyndham gets me is points or resale points + spending retail money to the developer.


----------



## cbyrne1174 (Jan 22, 2021)

Ninjaneer80 said:


> thanks for the tip, I am still trying to figure out if its worth it for the family. I do have a 3 bdrm non-wyndham now registered in RCI now. window shopping I think for around the 300K resale range.
> 
> When you say +254PIC points, is that what my non wyndham gets me is points or resale points + spending retail money to the developer.


1 three bedroom PIC = 254,000 when enrolled with at least 49,000 retail points. That's the cheapest route to go for VIP (under $10k).


----------



## Dave Landry (Jan 22, 2021)

Ninjaneer80 said:


> Sorry for the confusion everyone. I was reviewing notes from a year ago that I learned from the forums.  Please let me know if I was off or wrong on some of my understanding.
> 
> I learned to look at how things cost like you mentioned MF per Thousand points. here is the formula I learn from digging thru the forums. The one thing I never really figured out is what you mentioned program fee. I have not factored that in. Should I be adding 64c per 1000 points?
> 
> ...




So if that's the total then program fee is included and it would come out to $ 3.07/1000. I would have to make an assumythat it's actually an every other year contract in that case making the total cost per thousand actually $6.14. including the program fee. If you added an additional contract that amount would actually be a little less per thousand because program fee is due w wry year and the break even is around 231000 points. As an eoy contract that's would only be half the points annually not meeting the minimum for program fee. If it is indeed an annual contract ask them for the estoppel letter and any other verification of actual fees you can get. If by some strange reason it really is that low it's a definite great deal.


----------



## Dave Landry (Jan 22, 2021)

Ninjaneer80 said:


> Sorry for the confusion everyone. I was reviewing notes from a year ago that I learned from the forums.  Please let me know if I was off or wrong on some of my understanding.
> 
> I learned to look at how things cost like you mentioned MF per Thousand points. here is the formula I learn from digging thru the forums. The one thing I never really figured out is what you mentioned program fee. I have not factored that in. Should I be adding 64c per 1000 points?
> 
> ...




Or they made a mistake when listiyqhat the fees were which is pretty common as well.


----------



## Eric B (Jan 23, 2021)

Ninjaneer80 said:


> Sorry for the confusion everyone. I was reviewing notes from a year ago that I learned from the forums.  Please let me know if I was off or wrong on some of my understanding.
> 
> I learned to look at how things cost like you mentioned MF per Thousand points. here is the formula I learn from digging thru the forums. The one thing I never really figured out is what you mentioned program fee. I have not factored that in. Should I be adding 64c per 1000 points?
> 
> ...



A good reference for maintenance fees for Wyndham resorts, as reported by owners that use TUG, is here:









						Wyndham HOA Maint. Fees - History
					

Form Responses 1  Timestamp,Untitled Question




					docs.google.com
				




The maintenance fees are generally listed as dollars per thousand points ($/kpts), though there are some exceptions, and do not include the program fees.  For Wyndham, the program fees are an additional $0.66/kpts for accounts with PlusPartners with a minimum of $185/year or $0.64/kpts for accounts without PlusPartners with a minimum of $165/year (IIRC).  An account would have PlusPartners if there is a retail contract in it rather than only including resale contracts.  As a result, if you were to add a retail contract, the program fee would be slightly higher; also, if you were to add a PIC contract for the non-Wyndham contract you would wind up paying the program fee annually for the potential points that week could be converted to (i.e., 254kpts/year for a 3 BR * $0.66/kpts = $167.64/year).  That can be worth it for the VIP benefits you get, but isn't necessarily worth it - you have to make plans that are sufficiently flexible to take advantage of the reduced booking costs in discount windows, etc., in order to make the cost worth it.  Using a PIC or two to get VIP benefits is less expensive than buying all of the retail contracts that would be necessary to reach the same VIP level, of course, but you do seem like someone doing their due diligence to see if the savings pencil out.  Bottom line for me is that the details of the system are well laid out in the directory, which is definitely worth your time reading in depth.


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 23, 2021)

Dave Landry said:


> So if that's the total then program fee is included and it would come out to $ 3.07/1000. I would have to make an assumythat it's actually an every other year contract in that case making the total cost per thousand actually $6.14. including the program fee. If you added an additional contract that amount would actually be a little less per thousand because program fee is due w wry year and the break even is around 231000 points. As an eoy contract that's would only be half the points annually not meeting the minimum for program fee. If it is indeed an annual contract ask them for the estoppel letter and any other verification of actual fees you can get. If by some strange reason it really is that low it's a definite great deal.




You are correct, I didn't see that at first. When the owner contact me , she me mentioned it was an ever other year.

With that said, would it be worth getting 2 of these on opposite years ?


----------



## Dave Landry (Jan 23, 2021)

Ninjaneer80 said:


> You are correct, I didn't see that at first. When the owner contact me , she me mentioned it was an ever other year.
> 
> With that said, would it be worth getting 2 of these on opposite years ?


I bought one last April before knowing about the housekeeping changes. Probably wouldn't have had I known.

If you don't plan to move points to an off use year then will work ok or if you do move plan on booking long stays to utilize more points and use less housekeeping credits.


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 23, 2021)

How do the house keeping fees work ? So stay clear of ever other year ?


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 23, 2021)

Eric B said:


> A good reference for maintenance fees for Wyndham resorts, as reported by owners that use TUG, is here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks  for the tips, it's a lot to take in. Trying to learn a little at a time, and once I wrap my head around something then move to something new to learn. 

Once I buy resale first , then I buy from the developee then add my pic 3 bedroom, I can take the resale points and pile it up with the developerr points to build up to bronze ? 

Or can you only get that status up by buying from developer? 

Sorry if I am not asking the question correctly basically asking if I buy resale first then buy from the developer is there any benefit doing this.


----------



## Eric B (Jan 23, 2021)

Resale points don't count towards VIP status, but are eligible for VIP benefits.  That is to say, you can use your resale points during the VIP discount window and get the discount, deposit them into future years during the VIP point deposit feature window rather than the non-VIP window, etc.; this included the unlimited housekeeping, which legacy VIP owners still have, and includes unlimited reservation transactions for VIPG and up.  So, if you buy resale first, then buy retail, only the retail points and the PIC would count.  If you're just going for Bronze, it wouldn't matter much since the minimum purchase to allow for adding a PIC Plus contract is 49K and you'd get 254K with a 3 BR, making a total of 303K points towards VIP, which would get you to Bronze.

It's worth considering whether getting to Bronze is actually worth it, of course.  I splurged and got up to Gold prior to the latest change to the levels, so have the unlimited housekeeping and transactions, which is nice for the flexibility but probably won't be cost-neutral for a while.  IMHO, it's worth taking a look at the difference in MFs for the various resorts as compared to the Club Wyndham Access costs as a first step - owning at Bali Hai means that the cost for any vacation I book starts out at around the same as it would for a VIPG CWA owner in the discount window.  Given the choice between spending the extra up front for a low cost Club Wyndham Select deed on the resale market or on a retail purchase to get VIP status, it's pretty much a no-brainer which is a better investment.  You're doing the right thing by doing your due diligence now.


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 23, 2021)

Thanks again ! I am not stuck on any resort ,.I have often thought about CWA points. Trying to figure out what is a good price per thousand, 6 dollar and below?

I honestly don't know what vip status is good for us. I know we do vacation last minute alot.....lol. researching that now.

Good to know that I am benefit banking resale points from VIP status. I will read over the benefits of bronze again and see what I think. 

Thanks again for the insight


----------



## Eric B (Jan 23, 2021)

Ninjaneer80 said:


> Thanks again ! I am not stuck on any resort ,.I have often thought about CWA points. Trying to figure out what is a good price per thousand, 6 dollar and below?
> 
> I honestly don't know what vip status is good for us. I know we do vacation last minute alot.....lol. researching that now.
> 
> ...



With resale CWA, you would be paying $6.61/kpt MF plus $.64/kpt program fee for a total of $7.25/kpt.  With resale Bali Hai, the cost would be $3.84/kpt plus $.64 program fee for a total of $4.48/kpt - about a 38% discount.  There are a number of others that are lower cost; typically folks look at Grand Desert as being one that comes on the resale market fairly frequently and doesn't cost as much up front, but has a good MF ($4.97/kpt + $.64/kpt = $5.61 - still 23% lower than CWA); I've also heard folks saying that National Harbor and Panama City Beach are good ones to own, which is due to their lower MFs.  Bottom line with Wyndham is that a low MF ownership gets you inexpensive points that are just as good as any other points at the 10 month point for most resorts, and I've never had an issue getting a reservation I want at that point.  Their are exceptions where the reservations are more limited (e.g., Margaritaville resorts), but that's not too much of a hurdle for the way I use my ownerships.  With a VIP ownership, you have the benefit of additional discounts at the 60-day point and the potential for room upgrades, but that really winds up being for places where they are not experiencing high demand, so the relative value of VIP really depends on how you are able to use it.  It's fairly simple to get into places with low demand inexpensively by a number of different avenues because they are low demand.  A lot of the aspects of a VIP ownership are nice perks to have, but a low cost (MF) resale ownership has an awful lot going for it, too.


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 23, 2021)

Thanks again ! I will start looking for a resale! 

I am heading to Orlando this summer maybe I will stop in and sit In during a presentation and get some points to hit VIP bronze !

My drive for all this is I am bad about family vacations and we need to do them every year. This is forcing me to schedule one every year. My wife and I don't mind last minute booking at all. We can also book 6 months In advance as well.


----------



## Dave Landry (Jan 23, 2021)

Ninjaneer80 said:


> How do the house keeping fees work ? So stay clear of ever other year ?




With the new recent changes you get one housekeeping credit for every 70000 points owned. It takes one for each reservation regardless of length of stay. So lower points shorter stays will burn them up just like with the old system. Biggest downfall is with the new changes when moving points to another year housekeeping credits no longer transfer so you end up with more points and only whatever crwitou would usually have in that year they were moved to. If you only own one with contract and try to vacation every year by moving points then in the off years you will always have to purchase housekeeping for $159 for each reservation as that year get 0 credits.


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 23, 2021)

Dave Landry said:


> With the new recent changes you get one housekeeping credit for every 70000 points owned. It takes one for each reservation regardless of length of stay. So lower points shorter stays will burn them up just like with the old system. Biggest downfall is with the new changes when moving points to another year housekeeping credits no longer transfer so you end up with more points and only whatever crwitou would usually have in that year they were moved to. If you only own one with contract and try to vacation every year by moving points then in the off years you will always have to purchase housekeeping for $159 for each reservation as that year get 0 credits.



I see, bummer but manageable it seems. thanks again for the input!


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 23, 2021)

Eric B said:


> A good reference for maintenance fees for Wyndham resorts, as reported by owners that use TUG, is here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



dumb question but I have to ask, is MF fixed for all locations? When looking at the google doc you shared made me want to ask. For example if someone is reselling bonnet creek, is the MF going to be the same for everyone, or do they fluxacte deeping what the owner got it for?


----------



## Eric B (Jan 23, 2021)

Ninjaneer80 said:


> dumb question but I have to ask, is MF fixed for all locations? When looking at the google doc you shared made me want to ask. For example if someone is reselling bonnet creek, is the MF going to be the same for everyone, or do they fluxacte deeping what the owner got it for?



There are no dumb questions (just dumb people ;-)...).  MF rates are fairly standard at resorts, but there can be differences where a resort was was brought into Wyndham and owners converted different weeks that had different point values assigned but the same MF.  That's why it's important to check an estoppel before buying.  I haven't heard that being an issue at Bonnet Creek, but at some of the former Pahio ones and some others.

The other factor is the minimum program fee, which means it will be more on a par point basis until you have enough points to be over the minimum.


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 23, 2021)

Eric B said:


> There are no dumb questions (just dumb people ;-)...).  MF rates are fairly standard at resorts, but there can be differences where a resort was was brought into Wyndham and owners converted different weeks that had different point values assigned but the same MF.  That's why it's important to check an estoppel before buying.  I haven't heard that being an issue at Bonnet Creek, but at some of the former Pahio ones and some others.
> 
> The other factor is the minimum program fee, which means it will be more on a par point basis until you have enough points to be over the minimum.



hahah right ! on the stupid people... LOL I could use some help on this thread below. I am trying to understand the benefits between CWA and deeded, which will factor in on a decision for resale because it seems that CWA is a good amount higher on MF

Difference Between CWA and Deeded


----------



## Dave Landry (Jan 23, 2021)

Ninjaneer80 said:


> dumb question but I have to ask, is MF fixed for all locations? When looking at the google doc you shared made me want to ask. For example if someone is reselling bonnet creek, is the MF going to be the same for everyone, or do they fluxacte deeping what the owner got it for?



For the most part maintenance fees are consistent at each location. There are some contracts that used to be fixed weeks and were converted to points years ago. As fixed weeks some were prime red weeks and others were off peak weeks but had the same yearly maintenance fee. When converted to points the red prime weeks would convert to a larger amount of points then an off peak week making the maintenance fee cost per thousand points lower.


----------



## Eric B (Jan 23, 2021)

CWA is an ownership of a trust that owns an assortment of weeks at resorts rather than a single week at a single resort, which is called Club Wyndham Select (CWS) or deeded.  The result of this is that the MF cost is a blend of those at the underlying resorts and there is a correspondingly greater advance reservation priority at those resorts.  IMHO, the blended MF is on the high side of average because it's harder to sell higher MF resorts as CWS if you have a knowledgeable customer.  In any case, points are points in the system after the ARP period is over at ten months and it's typically not an issue getting a reservation after that.  It might be in some very specific situations for specific resorts, but I haven't experienced it yet.  Availability can be an issue for high demand reservations in the short term, but it can be planned around.  I do have a small CWA contract that I bought to get to VIPG; the rest of mine are Bali Hai and PICs.  The reason I topped up with CWA was because the pay back for a comparable number of lower cost points retail would have been excessive.  On the resale market, the price differential between CWA and CWS is low enough that the pay back due to the lower MFs is worth it.  I don't personally value the additional ARP at other CWA resorts very highly at all.


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 23, 2021)

Dave Landry said:


> For the most part maintenance fees are consistent at each location. There are some contracts that used to be fixed weeks and were converted to points years ago. As fixed weeks some were prime red weeks and others were off peak weeks but had the same yearly maintenance fee. When converted to points the red prime weeks would convert to a larger amount of points then an off peak week making the maintenance fee cost per thousand points lower.



this helps thanks !! I might be looking for location like bali. grand desert , etc... 

If I am understanding everything correctly it's really only worth getting a fixed location if I plan on booking between the 10-13 month window using ARP at the location right ?

If I am not going to utilize that window, I should go and find resale at a location with the lowest cost MF I can find?


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 23, 2021)

Eric B said:


> CWA is an ownership of a trust that owns an assortment of weeks at resorts rather than a single week at a single resort, which is called Club Wyndham Select (CWS) or deeded.  The result of this is that the MF cost is a blend of those at the underlying resorts and there is a correspondingly greater advance reservation priority at those resorts.  IMHO, the blended MF is on the high side of average because it's harder to sell higher MF resorts as CWS if you have a knowledgeable customer.  In any case, points are points in the system after the ARP period is over at ten months and it's typically not an issue getting a reservation after that.  It might be in some very specific situations for specific resorts, but I haven't experienced it yet.  Availability can be an issue for high demand reservations in the short term, but it can be planned around.  I do have a small CWA contract that I bought to get to VIPG; the rest of mine are Bali Hai and PICs.  The reason I topped up with CWA was because the pay back for a comparable number of lower cost points retail would have been excessive.  On the resale market, the price differential between CWA and CWS is low enough that the pay back due to the lower MFs is worth it.  I don't personally value the additional ARP at other CWA resorts very highly at all.


I am not sure I understand what your saying. Are you saying I am better off with non-CWA resale wise?


----------



## Eric B (Jan 23, 2021)

Yep


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 23, 2021)

Eric B said:


> Yep



Roger that ! That's what I thought you meant just checking. Looks like the only really advantage of CWA is APR for a lot of locations?


----------



## Jan M. (Jan 24, 2021)

Just to be clear the only way to have VIP status is to buy sufficient points directly from Wyndham. Resale points don't count towards the required number of points for the VIP levels.

As cbyme1174 pointed out new VIP owners no longer get unlimited housekeeping credits and that's a major deterrent to spending the money you'll have to spend for VIP. She also said bronze really isn't worth it and I'm inclined to agree with her.

I like using Grand Desert for my examples on maintenance fees. It's not the lowest but it's on the lower side. Building 3 is $5.07 per thousand points. Club Wyndham Access is $6.61. You'll add another $0.64 per thousand points to either for your program fee or a minimum of $165 if you own less than a total of about 258,000 points. So say you booked a one bedroom deluxe at Bonnet Creek in the value season for 84,000 points. Also that you own enough points to be over the minimum program fee. If you owned at Grand Desert building 3 that Bonnet Creek reservation is going to cost you $479.64 in 2021. With CWA points it will cost you $609.

Here's another way to look at it. You can find CWA points going dirt cheap but you can also find decent deals on Grand Desert points. Say you bought 308,000 CWA points for $500 out the door or paid $1000 for the same number of points at Grand Desert. How long will it take you to recover the extra $500 to have Grand Desert points? In 2021 the 308,000 CWA points will cost you $2233 in maintenance fees. The same number of points at Grand Desert building 3 will cost $1758.68. So $474.32 less just for 2021. That means you'll have almost recovered that extra $500 you spent in the first year you own. Remember maintenance fees are for as long as you own. The purchase price is a one time start up cost. My rule of thumb for us is five years or less to recover the higher purchase price is a no brainer. Six to eight years I'd have to really think about it. Over that I'm out but that's solely because of our age. If we were younger, ten years to recover the cost would be acceptable. Some people don't see themselves owning for ten years. Some aren't entirely sure how the whole thing works or if it will be a good fit for them. I know the product and our finances so we were always in it for the long haul.


----------



## paxsarah (Jan 24, 2021)

Jan M. said:


> She also said bronze really isn't worth it and I'm inclined to agree with her.


She said under the current system, in her opinion _only_ Bronze is worth it. Especially since the OP already owns a 3BR that trades in RCI, it would only require the bare minimum of 49,000 retail points from Wyndham to PIC it in and be Bronze VIP. Her point seems correct that efficient use of the higher levels will cause a new VIP owner to run out of housekeeping before they run out of points.


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 24, 2021)

Jan M. said:


> I like using Grand Desert for my examples on maintenance fees. It's not the lowest but it's on the lower side. Building 3 is $5.07 per thousand points. Club Wyndham Access is $6.61. You'll add another $0.64 per thousand points to either for your program fee or a minimum of $165 if you own less than a total of about 258,000 points. So say you booked a one bedroom deluxe at Bonnet Creek in the value season for 84,000 points. Also that you own enough points to be over the minimum program fee. If you owned at Grand Desert building 3 that Bonnet Creek reservation is going to cost you $479.64 in 2021. With CWA points it will cost you $609.



I really like these examples! thank you for sharing. That was some of my thought when I was factoring in the cost per thousands, how far the bang for the buck is. 

Our plan is a long-term plan, the youngest is 8 and we want to travel 1 -2 times a year and more if we can squeeze in some last-minute deals. The oldest two are 20 and 18, they come and hitch a ride on the vacations. 

This has been helpful everyone, thanks again!

I am dying to grab around 308K worth of points now that are around the 5.07 mark that I have seen people wanting to give away. since we already have 2 years of points in RCI banked ( we already have a trip booked for this summer for a week in Orlando) wife wants me to wait a year to pay off some items ( I don't disagree ) I just want to play with the portal now....hahah

We live in the NOVA area right outside of DC and there are a good amount of things close by that we could easily do 3-4 day trips with.


----------



## troy12n (Jan 24, 2021)

Eric B said:


> Resale points don't count towards VIP status, but are eligible for VIP benefits.



For now... keep that in mind. With Wyndham having Extra Vacations and other programs, I would imagine that loophole to eventually go away.


----------



## ausman (Jan 24, 2021)

troy12n said:


> For now... keep that in mind. With Wyndham having Extra Vacations and other programs, I would imagine that loophole to eventually go away.



It is something to be aware of and may eventually come to pass. I've been waiting for it to happen for almost 20 yrs and the way the Directory is written I still expect it to happen. It is just after waiting for it for so long I'm starting to wonder.


----------



## dgalati (Jan 28, 2021)

basham said:


> It is something to be aware of and may eventually come to pass. I've been waiting for it to happen for almost 20 yrs and the way the Directory is written I still expect it to happen. It is just after waiting for it for so long I'm starting to wonder.


Wyndham has it high on their priority list of loopholes that need to be closed. Its been abused by many VIP owners.  The resale points used with VIP  50% discounts along with free upgrades are used for rentals. Sales is still selling up to VIP as a way to pay maintenance fees.  It also is a great way to sell developer points as cancel and rebook was. Never in directory as a benefit but is sold as one.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Jan 28, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Wyndham has it high on their priority list of loopholes that need to be closed. Its been abused by many VIP owners.  The resale points used with VIP  50% discounts along with free upgrades are used for rentals. Sales is still selling up to VIP as a way to pay maintenance fees.  It also is a great way to sell developer points as cancel and rebook was. Never in directory as a benefit but is sold as one.



This is not what the SVP of Club & Owner Services has told me directly - on multiple occasions now.  We have explicitly asked this question multiple times over the past three years to Wyndham execs and explicitly been told that closing this supposed loophole - which is NOT an actual loophole - it's simply how the system itself works - is _not _a current priority.  This topic was explicitly discussed at length during the VIP upgrade to the new program and the panel decided it was _not _a priority.  The reason it hasn't been closed in 20 years is because it's _not _a priority. Please stop spreading false information like this.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Jan 28, 2021)

Ninjaneer80 said:


> I really like these examples! thank you for sharing. That was some of my thought when I was factoring in the cost per thousands, how far the bang for the buck is.
> 
> Our plan is a long-term plan, the youngest is 8 and we want to travel 1 -2 times a year and more if we can squeeze in some last-minute deals. The oldest two are 20 and 18, they come and hitch a ride on the vacations.
> 
> ...



Keep an eye out on timesharenation.com as well - this site lists mostly free timeshares for sale.  No up front costs for the buyer in other words. 






						Free Wyndham Points Timeshare For Sale - FREE
					

Free timeshare for sale at Wyndham Points in Multiple Destinations. Pay $0 for a timeshare at Wyndham Points. 100s of free timeshares to choose from.




					www.timesharenation.com
				




Here's a link to the Google sheet that lists all of their available inventory:  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Drg71NVXGz8jKbq8h9TAwLw1CxRCdLAZ1j8upwjTXic/htmlview#

Bookmark it and check it however often you like.  It's for _all _timeshares, not just Wyndham, but I've seen some pretty good Wyndham contracts pop onto the sheet from time to time. You can also probably find a PIC week via this same sheet by keeping an eye out. There are several VA weeks based timeshares on the list right now for example.


----------



## dgalati (Jan 28, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> This is not what the SVP of Club & Owner Services has told me directly - on multiple occasions now.  We have explicitly asked this question multiple times over the past three years to Wyndham execs and explicitly been told that closing this supposed loophole - which is NOT an actual loophole - it's simply how the system itself works - is _not _a current priority.  This topic was explicitly discussed at length during the VIP upgrade to the new program and the panel decided it was _not _a priority.  The reason it hasn't been closed in 20 years is because it's _not _a priority. Please stop spreading false information like this.


Everyone believed Cancel and re book also wasn't a loophole at one time. Of course they are not going to tell a room full of VIP owners that a loophole is going to be closed. Especially after sales sold this as a benefit and convinced them to buy up to the VIP levels. Did the same Wyndham SVP of Club & Owner Services discuss the cancel and re book loophole with any owners before it was shut down? Maybe one hand doesn't know what the other is doing at Wyndham as @ronparise has stated ? Why does Ovations only take back ownership only after you own it for 1 year but Wyndham will pay to buy it through a third party?


----------



## dgalati (Jan 28, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Keep an eye out on timesharenation.com as well - this site lists mostly free timeshares for sale.  No up front costs for the buyer in other words.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Better yet just call and let them know what you are intersted in. They will call you when something comes up. I dealt with Jared on a few occasions and he is a pleasure to deal with. Wyndham and Worldmark ownership's for free all in.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Jan 28, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Everyone believed Cancel and re book also wasn't a loophole at one time. Of course they are not going to tell a room full of VIP owners that a loophole is going to be closed. Especially after sales sold this as a benefit and convinced them to buy up to the VIP levels. Did the same Wyndham SVP of Club & Owner Services discuss the cancel and re book loophole with any owners before it was shut down? Maybe one hand doesn't know what the other is doing at Wyndham as @ronparise has stated ? Why does Ovations only take back ownership only after you own it for 1 year but Wyndham will pay to buy it through a third party?



These are 1:1 conversations I've had directly with the Wyndham execs - these aren't owner meetings or anything public.  What I'm saying has been told to me by multiple Wyndham execs one on one - repeatedly over a period of many months.  I talk to both the right and left hands in other words - and I get the same message - across multiple Wyndham departments.  These departments include Owner Services, Club Management, Digital Transformation, Brand Management, Sales & Marketing, just to name a few.  You know I work directly with these senior executives and you also know @Richelle and I are the ones who continue to work with the Digital Transformation team on website problems and improvements - having published a very detailed spreadsheet tracking mechanism to consolidate and capture feedback for Wyndham and for the benefit of Wyndham owners both on TUG and on the Wyndham Facebook forums.  Could priorities change at some future point in time with respect to VIP ownership of resale contracts?  Of course, but right now, it's not a priority, yet you continue to repeatedly state that it is.  Why?

Lastly, Cancel and Rebook _was _a loophole.  It was a set of steps used that bypassed functionality in the website reservation system - hence the word loophole - a set of actions taken to game a system.  The use of resale points as a VIP owner is not a loophole in comparison.  There's nothing I can do on the website to somehow game the reservation system or cheat the reservation system.  I cannot "choose" to use a different  type of points when making reservations online.  The system simply uses the bucket of points available and doesn't differentiate between retail and resale points today, by design.  Wyndham could absolutely have made this change when the Project Holiday website was launched last year - but they _consciously chose not to because it wasn't a priority.  _


----------



## dgalati (Jan 28, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> These are 1:1 conversations I've had directly with the Wyndham execs - these aren't owner meetings or anything public.  What I'm saying has been told to me by multiple Wyndham execs one on one - repeatedly over a period of many months.  I talk to both the right and left hands in other words - and I get the same message - across multiple Wyndham departments.  These departments include Owner Services, Club Management, Digital Transformation, Brand Management, Sales & Marketing, just to name a few.  You know I work directly with these senior executives and you also know @Richelle and I are the ones who continue to work with the Digital Transformation team on website problems and improvements - having published a very detailed spreadsheet tracking mechanism to consolidate and capture feedback for Wyndham and for the benefit of Wyndham owners both on TUG and on the Wyndham Facebook forums.  Could priorities change at some future point in time with respect to VIP ownership of resale contracts?  Of course, but right now, it's not a priority, yet you continue to repeatedly state that it is.  Why?
> 
> Lastly, Cancel and Rebook _was _a loophole.  It was a set of steps used that bypassed functionality in the website reservation system - hence the word loophole - a set of actions taken to game a system.  The use of resale points as a VIP owner is not a loophole in comparison.  There's nothing I can do on the website to somehow game the reservation system or cheat the reservation system.  I cannot "choose" to use a different  type of points when making reservations online.  The system simply uses the bucket of points available and doesn't differentiate between retail and resale points today, by design.  Wyndham could absolutely have made this change when the Project Holiday website was launched last year - but they _consciously chose not to because it wasn't a priority.  _


Cancel and re book , the stripping of 3 years of points and the use of resale points with VIP benefits are and were all loopholes. None are listed in the directory as a owner benefit. Buy 1 million developer points along with 5-10 million resale to use with VIP benefits. Then rent points taking advantage of the VIP 50% discounts along with free room upgrades using resale points and you don't think its a loophole or abuse of the system? The club is intended for personal use.  Worldmark limited the amount of reservations a owner can book to prevent the rental abuse. Wyndham can and will do the same in due time. Contrary to what you have been told this abuse will be eliminated sooner or later.


----------



## Eric B (Jan 28, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Better yet just call and let them know what you are intersted in. They will call you when something comes up. I dealt with Jared on a few occasions and he is a pleasure to deal with. Wyndham and Worldmark ownership's for free all in.



Jared hasn't been there for a while.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Jan 28, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Cancel and re book , the stripping of 3 years of points and the use of resale points with VIP benefits are and were all loopholes. None are listed in the directory as a owner benefit. Buy 1 million developer points along with 5-10 million resale to use with VIP benefits. Then rent points taking advantage of the VIP 50% discounts along with free room upgrades using resale points and you dont think its a loophole or abuse of the system? The club is intended for personal use. Worldmark limited the amount of reservations a owner can book to prevent the rental abuse. Wyndham can and will do th same in due time. Contray to what you have been told this abuse will be eliminated sooner or later.



You are describing the rare exception and not the rule. There are no megarenters left compared to times prior to Voyager when this type of behavior was prevalent. The megarenters like Ron Parise were either banned from the system or simply no longer hold the amount of inventory they did previously because the numbers just don’t work any more. I’ve spoken directly to several people who used to rent millions of points and made decent money prior to Voyager. The one person I still know who holds millions of points - barely breaks even now compared to times past - and openly admitted they wouldn’t do so under today’s system and rules. In other words, the abuse you keep attempting to attribute here isn’t real. I don’t know why you think it is. 

In any case, perhaps Wyndham may implement more limitations, however the fact is it would only impact an extremely small minority of the ownership base today. Good companies don’t manage by exception, they manage by the rule. 80/20. The loopholes that were used previously to abuse the system were all eliminated in 2016 when Voyager was implemented. The use of these real loopholes was becoming too prevalent via the megarenters - so Wyndham closed the loopholes and forcibly removed the worst offenders. I think you are comparing apples to oranges - the level of abuse isn’t comparable. Wyndham has statistics on these issues, I know they do. 

The system has always been intended for personal use only. Wyndham could have eliminated use of VIP resale points when the new system was implemented last year. They made a collective panel decision not to do so. With the pandemic I’m almost certain they aren’t going to introduce a change that would upset a subset of their most valuable and likely repeat customers - their VIP owners. 

We will have to agree to disagree. Parroting this same statement about resale VIP points being a loophole over and over again isn’t going to make it true though. For some reason you seem to think that if you keep saying it here on TUG that it’s going to come true. I suppose we will have to wait and see. In the meantime I will continue to share the actual information that Wyndham execs share with me when appropriate, and I will continue to call out misinformation when I deem it appropriate. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Jan 28, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Keep an eye out on timesharenation.com as well - this site lists mostly free timeshares for sale.  No up front costs for the buyer in other words.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Awesome thanks ! I was curious what else was some good places to look at besides tugg and ebay. I will look at it this week.

Thanks everyone


----------



## Richelle (Jan 28, 2021)

dgalati said:


> Wyndham has it high on their priority list of loopholes that need to be closed. Its been abused by many VIP owners.  The resale points used with VIP  50% discounts along with free upgrades are used for rentals. Sales is still selling up to VIP as a way to pay maintenance fees.  It also is a great way to sell developer points as cancel and rebook was. Never in directory as a benefit but is sold as one.



I know I have been away for a while, but when did Wyndham tell you it was "high on their list"?  Did you hear it from an executive or a salesperson?  We do talk to the executives, and have heard on more than one occasion it was NOT high on their list.  I think you might be overestimating the number of resale owners, and the number of VIPs who own resale.  It's true, we don't have those numbers either, but we were told resale only owners were a small percentage of their owner base.  I would imagine retail owners who own resale are a higher number, but how many of them are VIP?  How many of those VIP use VIP benefits with their resale points?  Let's use me as an example of a VIP owner who also owns resale:

The majority of my points are used on the big family vacations.  Typically we try to get multiple rooms, and often need 3 and 4 bedroom rooms.  We have to book those pretty far out because, as you know, the biggest rooms go first.  Especially during the prime season when we take that family trip.  We've never had a three-bedroom auto-upgrade.  It's not uncommon for me to burn through 800k to 1 million points on the big family vacation.  Right now I am in the process of off-loading a couple of contracts, and taking one on, but prior to that, I had about 1.5 million points.  700k retail and 800k resale. So that leaves me with anywhere from 500-700k points left after booking the family vacation.  I use those for last-minute trips that are often discounted and upgraded.  So, to recap, 800k of my points are resale.  700k is retail.  I burn through all 800k resale points on the family vacation we book 10 months out.  No discounts and upgrades.  The remaining 700k that are "retail" is used for last-minute trips that are discounted and upgraded.  So none of my resale points are getting VIP benefits.  Not even for the points deposit feature because I normally use most of my points.

I am not an exception.  Most VIPs travel.  Most VIPs do not buy points to rent them.  Sure, some were told by the sales people they could make their maintenance fees back by renting, but there is enough renting competition out there, that there is little to no profit to renting.  They find this out pretty quickly, but not quick enough.  What little profit you make, is not worth the time you spend making it.  So many only rent if they need to.  The days of Ron Praise level profit are long gone.  Time to stop living in the past and move forward to the future.  Yes, they can decide to take away the ability to use our VIP benefits with resale points, but for right now, they don't want to spend the time and money to do it.  Stop beating the dead horse.  That dead horse is meat mush by now.  Also, stop spouting things as fact, that you don't know are fact.  We've had this conversation before.

Finally, "sold as one" doesn't make it a "benefit".  Anyone who can read, could look at the chart and see it was not listed as a benefit.  They had access to the directory when they purchased.  They were likely even shown the benefits chart, so they would see what they were buying.  Nowhere was the cancel rebook "benefit" listed.


----------



## Ninjaneer80 (Feb 4, 2021)

Is steam boat springs normally low MF ? Saw 500K average 5.2PPT


----------



## dannybaker (Feb 4, 2021)

Wow thank you everyone for great information.


----------



## dgalati (Feb 4, 2021)

dannybaker said:


> Wow thank you everyone for great information.


Do yourself a favor and try Renting before you buy. Depending on your travel needs it may work out better then buying resale or up to VIP and committing to the burden of paying maintenance fees.


----------

