# [MERGED] VIP Downgrade letter



## timeos2 (Oct 8, 2007)

While it doesn't matter to me, as I have made it a goal to purposely avoid the VIP nonsense, I have heard from a fellow owner that Wyndham has sent out letters stating that VIP status will be rescinded if your points were purchased resale. His reading of the letter says they are retroactively removing the VIP even for those whose purchases were prior to the change date and who were "Grandfathered in" back then.

While this type of change certainly doesn't surprise me, as Wyndham seems to be dedicated to devaluing the ownership you pay them for immediately after you purchase and the rescind period runs out, it again proves to me that buying into VIP is a big waste of money.  The rules can and are changed at 'Wyn" (or is it whim?) while the cost to get it, as it is only available at retail, is outrageous. Plus the small value you are getting for that extra $.90 per point - usually tens of thousands of dollars over resale cost - only applies to you. If you sell our ownership it becomes a resale and thus your buyers lose the "privilege".  Of course once you pay the big bucks to get in they raise the bar needed so you are on a treadmill of ever increasing "need" to maintain your VIP level, buying at super inflated prices and guaranteeing that, when you sell, your purchase will be devalued by 80, 90 percent or more. 

I fail to see why they think this increases the value of retail, to me it does the opposite, and, again, merely serves to further devalue resale pricing which already is in the pits.  It makes buying Wyndham through anything but resale a totally foolish choice and will increase the already unbelievable spread between retail and resale prices even more. If they keep it up you'll be able to get free FSP for merely accepting the future fees while only suckers pay the retail price, get "VIP" and find they are royally screwed in the long run. 

What a plan.  I hope Marriott adopts it too (they do seem to be heading down the degrading resale road lately) so I can pick up some of their resorts at 90% off too!  Wyndham is on a self destruct path with this type of move IMO.


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## Bill4728 (Oct 8, 2007)

The key point to me is "un-grandfathering"   If a company grandfather's you into VIP it is just very bad business to "un-grandfather" people.

ps I'm going to move this to the Wyndham board


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## OutSkiing (Jul 4, 2022)

We received this email Thursday informing us our VIP level will be downgraded in August because biennial agreements will be counted at half value towards VIP while they were formerly counted as if full annual. Did anyone else get this? We were told at the time we went founders in 2021 we would be grandfathered founders so this seems like Wyndham is going back on a promise. Need to check that paperwork when we get home in late July.


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## paxsarah (Jul 4, 2022)

I read about this on Facebook - it sucks for owners impacted by it, for sure.

Out of curiosity, is your biennial contract(s) a converted fixed/float week? The way the letter is written seems to indicate those are the only contracts impacted, but I was wondering if any regular UDI biennial contracts were also double-counted.


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## OutSkiing (Jul 4, 2022)

Yes, our two impacted Bali Hai contracts are converted floating week contracts.

Bob


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## cbyrne1174 (Jul 4, 2022)

This right here is why I refuse to buy retail.


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 4, 2022)

Bummer. It doesn't affect me, sorry this is happening to others. I can't imagine it affecting that many people, that they would change things up on you (rather than grandfathering what you've been accustomed to (since before 2013).  But, it's Wyndham.

The hits just keep coming.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 4, 2022)

That's terrible.  Wyndham just loves to change things on us.  They are giving themselves a bad reputation for changing policies.  It's what gives timeshare a bad name.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 5, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> I read about this on Facebook - it sucks for owners impacted by it, for sure.
> 
> Out of curiosity, is your biennial contract(s) a converted fixed/float week? The way the letter is written seems to indicate those are the only contracts impacted, but I was wondering if any regular UDI biennial contracts were also double-counted.



I saw this FB over the weekend as well.  It does appear to be limited to converted fixed/float week contract owners as you surmise - at least that has been the observation to date - something to do with how the system is "seeing" those contracts that needs to be different - I will follow up with our Wyndham contacts on this item to see if we can get any additional detail on the scope of impact and the why...


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 5, 2022)

After performing some basic due diligence, this appears to be an issue of the Wyndham IT system finally catching up with the rules that have actually been in place since at least 2010 (we verified via a 2010 member directory) - somewhat similar to what occurred with the VIP resale points item last year.  The current member directory already states that the change being implemented by the system, is aligning with the rules that have already been in place for over 12 years now.  Screenshot below for ease of reference from the current member directory (the same verbiage exists as far back as the 2010 member directory to be clear).


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## paxsarah (Jul 5, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> After performing some basic due diligence, this appears to be an issue of the Wyndham IT system finally catching up with the rules that have actually been in place since at least 2010 (we verified via a 2010 member directory) - somewhat similar to what occurred with the VIP resale points item last year.  The current member directory already states that the change being implemented by the system, is aligning with the rules that have already been in place for over 12 years now.  Screenshot below for ease of reference from the current member directory (the same verbiage exists as far back as the 2010 member directory to be clear).


Since 2009, actually, because it's in the 2009-10 directory (assuming that's what you mean by the 2010 directory). The nice thing about the verbiage in the 2009-10 directory is that it gives a specific example: "For Members with Biennial Ownership - For purposes of eligibility for VIP membership, half of your biennial allotment of points counts toward VIP status. EXAMPLE: A 154,000 point biennial ownership contract is considered to be 77,000 points toward VIP status."

 It is a bummer for these owners, but on the other hand they've been getting a pretty sweet deal on VIP eligibility all this time.


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## Melder (Jul 5, 2022)

@HitchHiker71 @paxsarah - Do you have a copy of the 2009-10 directory?  The link I have just hangs....  2009-2010 Club Wyndham Plus Member's Directory


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## paxsarah (Jul 5, 2022)

Melder said:


> @HitchHiker71 @paxsarah - Do you have a copy of the 2009-10 directory?  The link I have just hangs....  2009-2010 Club Wyndham Plus Member's Directory


I PDF'ed it at one point (because it only existed in some sort of Flash format), and I just uploaded it to Dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9i0583klfig5ble/wyndham_plus_membersdirectory0910_OCR.pdf?dl=0


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 5, 2022)

Melder said:


> @HitchHiker71 @paxsarah - Do you have a copy of the 2009-10 directory?  The link I have just hangs....  2009-2010 Club Wyndham Plus Member's Directory



It's in the Files section of a few of the FB groups - here's a link to one - you'd have to be a member of this group for it to work:






						Facebook
					






					www.facebook.com
				




Here's a link to the 2011-2012 members directory as well:






						Facebook
					






					www.facebook.com
				




I tried attaching the actual PDFs here but the files are too large for the TUG BBS to accept.


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## OutSkiing (Jul 5, 2022)

Thank you all for the info and thanks @HitchHiker71 for the research and reach out. The thing is, it was just last september that sales said a purchase would bump us from Platinum to Founders .. thats mostly why we made the purchase. I was questioning the math myself (whether to count the biennials full or half to reach 1.4mm points) so we had them write into the contract that we will get founders .. my wife thinks the wording was ‘grandfathered founders’. I looked every day while contract was processing and was relieved when Founders came through in a few days. We don’t get home to see our contract wording this month until late July.

I will call the dedicated number this week to try to get an exception started based on that contract and circumstance.

Any additional advice would be welcomed.

Bob


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 6, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> After performing some basic due diligence, this appears to be an issue of the Wyndham IT system finally catching up with the rules that have actually been in place since at least 2010 (we verified via a 2010 member directory) - somewhat similar to what occurred with the VIP resale points item last year.  The current member directory already states that the change being implemented by the system, is aligning with the rules that have already been in place for over 12 years now.  Screenshot below for ease of reference from the current member directory (the same verbiage exists as far back as the 2010 member directory to be clear).


Thanks for a good laugh to start the day. Wow, they fixed something that's been broken for over 12 years? Meanwhile sales, true to form, exploited the discrepancy to sell more contracts? Who prioritizes for these people? How long is going to take to fix the search for mobility units?


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## Jan M. (Jul 6, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> How long is going to take to fix the search for mobility units?



We're now approaching 4 months. It would be nice to know if they're even working on it.


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## jwalk03 (Jul 6, 2022)

OutSkiing said:


> Thank you all for the info and thanks @HitchHiker71 for the research and reach out. The thing is, it was just last september that sales said a purchase would bump us from Platinum to Founders .. thats mostly why we made the purchase. I was questioning the math myself (whether to count the biennials full or half to reach 1.4mm points) so we had them write into the contract that we will get founders .. my wife thinks the wording was ‘grandfathered founders’. I looked every day while contract was processing and was relieved when Founders came through in a few days. We don’t get home to see our contract wording this month until late July.
> 
> I will call the dedicated number this week to try to get an exception started based on that contract and circumstance.
> 
> ...



I would think that if you have a written contract that guarantees you founders status you have a pretty good leg to stand on to fight to keep it.


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## lost patience (Jul 8, 2022)

@*OutSkiing *Have you learned anything more?   Is the "dedicated" line really a dedicated line?  Last year when wyndham separated resale from developer, the "dedicated" line was a line that skipped vacation counselor and went directly to owner care.  Owner care had less knowledge than the website.   I digress.  I'm asking as I have 2 contracts that are EOY converted float weeks.  I have NOT received an email, but the description in this thread makes me think I will be impacted.  I don't want to call the number and call attention to myself if the person on the other end of the line is not well versed.


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## Jan M. (Jul 8, 2022)

lost patience said:


> @*OutSkiing *Have you learned anything more?   Is the "dedicated" line really a dedicated line?  Last year when wyndham separated resale from developer, the "dedicated" line was a line that skipped vacation counselor and went directly to owner care.  Owner care had less knowledge than the website.   I digress.  I'm asking as I have 2 contracts that are EOY converted float weeks.  I have NOT received an email, but the description in this thread makes me think I will be impacted.  I don't want to call the number and call attention to myself if the person on the other end of the line is not well versed.



Will this change lower your VIP level? If not that could be why you didn't get an email. A friend forwards me emails from Wyndham because for some reason we don't always get everything. I know we aren't the only owners who don't get all the emails Wyndham sends. Therefore it's not hard for me to believe that you could be impacted and didn't get the email.


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## lost patience (Jul 8, 2022)

Yes - it would lower our status from Founders to platinum.  Wyndham taketh away something we have only achieved in the last year    And just like you, we receive some emails, but not others.


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## OutSkiing (Jul 9, 2022)

lost patience said:


> Yes - it would lower our status from Founders to platinum.  Wyndham taketh away something we have only achieved in the last year    And just like you, we receive some emails, but not others.


It was a dedicated line. The gentleman said he and a few others staff the line. His initial answer was that we  will be downgraded from Founders to Platinum. He seemed ready to negotiate something because he asked ‘what outcome would we like’. I told him about our direct wyndham purchase last year where they wrote in that we would be founders and our desired outcome is for them to honor the contract so we remain founders. He found that contract but he was not ready to or able to negotiate us staying founders. He said give him 5 business days to research whether this would be a ‘sales violation’.

During casual conversation he pointed out that most impacted members are those who purchased these agreements from 2003-2013 and have been getting elevated vip level for years. In our case (and yours) there was a very recent purchase primarily to become founders so I think that should matter a lot.  BTW it seems the whole downgrade initiative is an excersize in customer abuse .. its one thing to change a policy going forward but applying it retroactively is just asking for badwill.

Bob


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## tschwa2 (Jul 9, 2022)

I think the other outcome you could ask for is if they won't let you remain founders, to refund the purchase and take back the contract.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 9, 2022)

tschwa2 said:


> I think the other outcome you could ask for is if they won't let you remain founders, to refund the purchase and take back the contract.


The treatment you are getting, this would be my inclination.  Get out while you can.


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## amycurl (Jul 9, 2022)

Yes, either the honor the designation in the contract, or they've breached the contract and you shouldn't be held to it, either. And interesting that they used the term "sales violation." That must mean something specific to them in Wyndham-speak, since we all know that there are "violations" (as we'd use the term) in every single sales meeting....


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## chapjim (Jul 9, 2022)

OutSkiing said:


> It was a dedicated line. The gentleman said he and a few others staff the line. His initial answer was that we  will be downgraded from Founders to Platinum. He seemed ready to negotiate something because he asked ‘what outcome would we like’. I told him about our direct wyndham purchase last year where they wrote in that we would be founders and our desired outcome is for them to honor the contract so we remain founders. He found that contract but he was not ready to or able to negotiate us staying founders. He said give him 5 business days to research whether this would be a ‘sales violation’.
> 
> During casual conversation he pointed out that most impacted members are those who purchased these agreements from 2003-2013 and have been getting elevated vip level for years. In our case (and yours) there was a very recent purchase primarily to become founders so I think that should matter a lot.  BTW it seems the whole downgrade initiative is an excersize in customer abuse .. its one thing to change a policy going forward but applying it retroactively is just asking for badwill.
> 
> Bob



I must have missed something.  I didn't see anything about retroactive application.


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## Jan M. (Jul 9, 2022)

chapjim said:


> I must have missed something.  I didn't see anything about retroactive application.



From what I read in the email he posted it only applies to biennial contracts purchased before November 1, 2013.  What I'm not clear on is if that date is when the very first owner bought or the date the current owner purchased the contract. I'd think it's the date the current owner bought but maybe not.


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## chapjim (Jul 9, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> From what I read in the email he posted it only applies to biennial contracts purchased before November 1, 2013.  What I'm not clear on is if that date is when the very first owner bought or the date the current owner purchased the contract. I'd think it's the date the current owner bought but maybe not.



I wouldn't call that retroactive application. 

Since OP purchased from Wyndham, I would agree that date of purchase is the relevant date.

I can't wait to hear what Wyndham does if the contract really does guarantee VIP Founders


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Jul 9, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> That's terrible.  Wyndham just loves to change things on us.
> 
> They are giving themselves a bad reputation for changing policies.  It's what gives timeshare a bad name.


As a non- owner / TUG  Wyndham forum reader -
"They are starting to sound more and more like- WESTGATE"


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## OutSkiing (Jul 9, 2022)

chapjim said:


> I must have missed something.  I didn't see anything about retroactive application.


In every purchase or conversation about direct sale purchase I’ve been in Wyndham uses the term ‘grandfathered’ so that if things change in the future you are grandfathered into your vip level as of date of sale. So by retroactive I mean this is reversing that postion. If new purchases such as the one we made last year were to occur in the future then I see it not qualifying for the particular VIP level but this is applying to a purchase already made and a level already attained.

Bob


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## chapjim (Jul 9, 2022)

OutSkiing said:


> In every purchase or conversation about direct sale purchase I’ve been in Wyndham uses the term ‘grandfathered’ so that if things change in the future you are grandfathered into your vip level as of date of sale. So by retroactive I mean this is reversing that postion. If new purchases such as the one we made last year were to occur in the future then I see it not qualifying for the particular VIP level but this is applying to a purchase already made and a level already attained.
> 
> Bob



Okay but to me, retroactive application would mean Wyndham went back to the date of your purchase and made any adjustments that would have negated whatever benefit you had of the VIPF that you would not have had prior to attaining VIPF.  Clearly a PITA and probably not something Wyndham could do accurately.


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## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch (Jul 10, 2022)

I think that Wyndham should honor established VIP levels, grandfather them in, and make this change on new purchases only.


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## paxsarah (Jul 10, 2022)

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> I think that Wyndham should honor established VIP levels, grandfather them in, and make this change on new purchases only.


It seems to me the problem here is that this exception was never written into Wyndham’s VIP levels. It may be written into individual contracts (or not, but affected individuals should check), but was never a written policy. Wyndham has written grandfathering policies  that deal with total points levels and benefits, but they never mention this particular biennial doubling issue.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 11, 2022)

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> I think that Wyndham should honor established VIP levels, grandfather them in, and make this change on new purchases only.



They cannot do that because it would not be equitable.  Here's the official statement we have received from Wyndham after following up on this issue with Wyndham management:



> "This issue is limited to a small subset of owners who had purchased a converted Affiliate, converted Fixed or Float Week, or Personal Interval Choice (PIC). It is a back end system points amount solution and not a front end website issue. This small subset of owners has received more points in their VIP calculation as compared to other owners that own the similar inventory. After this change all similarly situated owners will be treated correctly."



Personally, I think I see the core problem.  Wyndham cannot discriminate or provide a non-equitable solution here.  As others have said - it appears that this issue didn't occur after Nov 2013.  So we have a smaller subset of impacted owners who received more than what they were actually entitled to receive for points having to do with biennial contracts.  Wyndham essentially has two choices.  Either _all owners receive too much points credit - or all owners receive the proper amount of points credit.  _The rules cannot be different for what is the same situation.  Otherwise, all of the owners who only received proper credit - can point to this smaller subset of owners who essentially received double the points credit - and argue that they should receive the same equitable outcome.  It's one or the other.  Wyndham isn't going to give all owners more points credit than they are actually entitled to, so those owners who did receive too much credit - are being course corrected now.  For those impacted owners who have VIP and their levels are being negatively impacted - this situation is far from ideal - but I can at least understand the why now.  The rules have to apply the same to all accounts, even with grandfathering.  For those arguing this should be grandfathered - the reality is that _all _grandfathered VIP owners would have to receive the same "more points in their VIP calculation as compared to other owners that own the similar inventory."  Wyndham isn't going to grandfather artificial points credits for all owners - because if they did - those owners would have their VIP levels increased automatically due to receiving more points credit - just like the VIP owners that are being negatively impacted due to the announced changes.  It's one way or the other - the rules have to equitably apply to all involved.


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## OutSkiing (Jul 12, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> They cannot do that because it would not be equitable.  Here's the official statement we have received from Wyndham after following up on this issue with Wyndham management:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think I see the core problem.  Wyndham cannot discriminate or provide a non-equitable solution here.  As others have said - it appears that this issue didn't occur after Nov 2013.  So we have a smaller subset of impacted owners who received more than what they were actually entitled to receive for points having to do with biennial contracts.  Wyndham essentially has two choices.  Either _all owners receive too much points credit - or all owners receive the proper amount of points credit.  _The rules cannot be different for what is the same situation.  Otherwise, all of the owners who only received proper credit - can point to this smaller subset of owners who essentially received double the points credit - and argue that they should receive the same equitable outcome.  It's one or the other.  Wyndham isn't going to give all owners more points credit than they are actually entitled to, so those owners who did receive too much credit - are being course corrected now.  For those impacted owners who have VIP and their levels are being negatively impacted - this situation is far from ideal - but I can at least understand the why now.  The rules have to apply the same to all accounts, even with grandfathering.  For those arguing this should be grandfathered - the reality is that _all _grandfathered VIP owners would have to receive the same "more points in their VIP calculation as compared to other owners that own the similar inventory."  Wyndham isn't going to grandfather artificial points credits for all owners - because if they did - those owners would have their VIP levels increased automatically due to receiving more points credit - just like the VIP owners that are being negatively impacted due to the announced changes.  It's one way or the other - the rules have to equitably apply to all involved.


I feel that is just an exercize in logic to justify an action. There must be numerous inequities born from historic purchases because VIP owners have acquired their VIP levels in many different ways. Converted fixed fairfield weeks, converted fixed affiliate weeks, PIC points, PIC express and what about Shell conversions and owners of the recently acquired resort in south Myrtle Beach?  Not to mention the temporary VIPs from package purchases.

It is interesting that PIC was mentioned .. I wonder if anyone here with PIC points is affected. BTW my wait for an answer from Wyndham about what sales promised in 2021 is not up until middle of this week.
Bob


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 12, 2022)

The statute of limitations is 7 years. Shouldn't Wyndham at some point be held accountable for their blunders. How many times are things like this going to come up? SMH


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## cbyrne1174 (Jul 12, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> The statute of limitations is 7 years. Shouldn't Wyndham at some point be help accountable for their blunders. How many times are things like this going to come up? SMH


Enough to make it so that people don't even bother to shoot for VIP. I personally was too scared to PIC to Gold before November 2020 because I felt like sometime down the road Wyndham will say that my PICs no longer count towards status because they changed their exchange affilliation or something. That's the exact kind of BS that I can totally see Wyndham try and pull. I remember I got the idea because @HitchHiker71 did just that and showed how it would pay for itself pretty quickly, but I have really low risk tolerance so I NOPED out. I instead used the money to replace my husband's car sooner than I normally would so we could drive to further locations.


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## WManning (Jul 12, 2022)

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> I think that Wyndham should honor established VIP levels, grandfather them in, and make this change on new purchases only.


Why not ask Wyndham to have resale points grandfathered in and be used with VIP benefits? Wyndham is tring to eliminate all loopholes that existed but we're not a listed benefit. It seems to me a lot of VIP owners want themselves excluded if it affects their situation. Someone in a earlier post commented that owners should feel lucky they were able to recieve more then what was listed as a benefit. Just maybe after Wyndham corrects all the system loopholes its possible they might try to fix the online user experiance!


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## dayooper (Jul 12, 2022)

WManning said:


> Why not ask Wyndham to have resale points grandfathered in and be used with VIP benefits? Wyndham is tring to eliminate all loopholes that existed but we're not a listed benefit. It seems to me a lot of VIP owners want themselves excluded if it affects their situation. Someone in a earlier post commented that owners should feel lucky they were able to recieve more then what was listed as a benefit. Just maybe after Wyndham corrects all the system loopholes its possible they might try to fix the online user experiance!



Here’s the thing, the OP bought directly from Wyndham for the reason to upgrade to Founders. It was written in the contract by a representative of the company that they would be grandfathered in. Should Wyndham not be held responsible for the contracts they sign?


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## WManning (Jul 12, 2022)

dayooper said:


> Here’s the thing, the OP bought directly from Wyndham for the reason to upgrade to Founders. It was written in the contract by a representative of the company that they would be grandfathered in. Should Wyndham not be held responsible for the contracts they sign?


If it's written in the contract absolutely!  Unfortunately most of the time owners rely on what was promised by sales.


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## dayooper (Jul 12, 2022)

WManning said:


> If it's written in contract absolutely!  Unfortunately most of the time owners rely on what was promised by sales.



I get that salesman lie to get a sale, but why shouldn’t what they say be honored? It’s wrong that they are allowed to say whatever they want. Is it wrong that the salesmen and the companies they represent be held to their word? We timeshare owners are held to ours or there are consequences.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 12, 2022)

dayooper said:


> Here’s the thing, the OP bought directly from Wyndham for the reason to upgrade to Founders. It was written in the contract by a representative of the company that they would be grandfathered in. Should Wyndham not be held responsible for the contracts they sign?



Actually we haven't seen any actual proof that the specific VIP tier was written into the contract.  I'd like to see proof - because every contract I've ever read and reviewed says the exact opposite in the fine print - that the entire VIP program is subject to change at any time - up to and including termination of the program in entirety.


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## dayooper (Jul 12, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Actually we haven't seen any actual proof that the specific VIP tier was written into the contract.  I'd like to see proof - because every contract I've ever read and reviewed says the exact opposite in the fine print - that the entire VIP program is subject to change at any time - up to and including termination of the program in entirety.



I agree, just going by what the OP posted.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 12, 2022)

OutSkiing said:


> I feel that is just an exercize in logic to justify an action. There must be numerous inequities born from historic purchases because VIP owners have acquired their VIP levels in many different ways. Converted fixed fairfield weeks, converted fixed affiliate weeks, PIC points, PIC express and what about Shell conversions and owners of the recently acquired resort in south Myrtle Beach?  Not to mention the temporary VIPs from package purchases.
> 
> It is interesting that PIC was mentioned .. I wonder if anyone here with PIC points is affected. BTW my wait for an answer from Wyndham about what sales promised in 2021 is not up until middle of this week.
> Bob



Perhaps, but I doubt it.  I doubt we would find that converted fixed weeks were valued using different points values for different owners for the same inventory for example, or PIC contracts were using different points values for a one bedroom for example, same with PIC express.  The rules need to be equitable, otherwise it's pretty easy to demonstrate inequity on Wyndham's part.  Same with Shell conversions, it's always the same points conversion values regardless of the owner's in scope.  Same with Plantation in Surfside Beach south of Myrtle Beach.  I have a friend who owns there through Plantation and has gone to the negotiating table several times now with Wyndham to convert - same points values every time.


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## WManning (Jul 12, 2022)

dayooper said:


> I get that salesman lie to get a sale, but why shouldn’t what they say be honored? It’s wrong that they are allowed to say whatever they want. Is it wrong that the salesmen and the companies they represent be held to their word? We timeshare owners are held to ours or there are consequences.


In a perfect world sales should be held accountable for the lies and deception. Unfortunately most buyers are to blame for not doing their own due diligence.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 12, 2022)

dayooper said:


> I get that salesman lie to get a sale, but why shouldn’t what they say be honored? It’s wrong that they are allowed to say whatever they want. Is it wrong that the salesmen and the companies they represent be held to their word? We timeshare owners are held to ours or there are consequences.



At the end of the day, unless you have documented proof about what was said, it becomes he said she said.  While oral contracts are legally enforceable, a level of proof that's required is usually sorely lacking.  This is the case regardless of the product or service being sold.  What really matters in the written signed contract at the end of the day, and the written signed contract has clauses contained within it that clearly negate 90% of what sales claims.  Caveat emptor.


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## dayooper (Jul 12, 2022)

WManning said:


> In a perfect world sales should be held accountable for the lies and deception. Unfortunately most buyers are to blame for not doing their own due diligence.



Of course those that purchase from the developer should always do their due diligence, but it still doesn’t make what the salesman and timeshare companies do right. If we just accept the lies and say that’s what timeshare salesman do, we are just perpetuating the behavior. Putting all of the blame on the purchaser is letting the timeshare industry off the hook. It’s similar to saying boys will be boys when they act inappropriately around women. I have 2 boys and I don’t want them to act that way just like I don’t want my kids to become timeshare salespeople and act inappropriately when in front of a potential client. 

I know there’s not much we can do to change the actions of the company and the purchaser is absolutely responsible for their purchase, but the idea that it’s ok for the salesmen to stretch the truth and outright lies isn’t right either.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 12, 2022)

@HitchHiker71 But if you are given a status and enjoy that status for years, and Wyndham turns the tides, then it's very obvious that Wyndham recognized the very status you enjoyed but took it away.  

Now the big company takes an owner down a notch because of a change in policy or a realization that this was done incorrectly, and that is just not right.  

The mantra on TUG is that everything Wyndham does is okay.  Wait until they do that to you.


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## dayooper (Jul 12, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> At the end of the day, unless you have documented proof about what was said, it becomes he said she said.  While oral contracts are legally enforceable, a level of proof that's required is usually sorely lacking.  This is the case regardless of the product or service being sold.  What really matters in the written signed contract at the end of the day, and the written signed contract has clauses contained within it that clearly negate 90% of what sales claims.  Caveat emptor.



I understand that. The only way to prevent is by having the conversation recorded, and we know that will never happen. All we really can do is try and inform like we have been doing. With that being said, if you think that salesman telling lies and stretching the truth is acceptable behavior just because it’s not enforceable, than we are not on the same thought processes.


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 12, 2022)

WManning said:


> In a perfect world sales should be held accountable for the lies and deception. Unfortunately most buyers are to blame for not doing their own due diligence.


There was a time, where it was thought by some that the new management was working to change the reputation (and integrity) of the sales force (it was suggested we give it some time). I say they have not come through, nor do I hear it spoken of any more. Same ol dirty tricks.


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 12, 2022)

dayooper said:


> I understand that. The only way to prevent is by having the conversation recorded, and we know that will never happen. All we really can do is try and inform like we have been doing. With that being said, if you think that salesman telling lies and stretching the truth is acceptable behavior just because it’s not enforceable, than we are not on the same thought processes.


After all, isn't one of the primary reasons selling timeshares is so successful is because they are catching people in vacation mode, etc? Prime targets for making poor decisions.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 12, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> @HitchHiker71 But if you are given a status and enjoy that status for years, and Wyndham turns the tides, then it's very obvious that Wyndham recognized the very status you enjoyed but took it away.
> 
> Now the big company takes an owner down a notch because of a change in policy or a realization that this was done incorrectly, and that is just not right.
> 
> The mantra on TUG is that everything Wyndham does is okay.  Wait until they do that to you.



I never said it was OK, I said I could at least understand the why.  And as I said previously - I already was impacted by the changes to the resale contracts for VIP owners, so I've already experienced having perks that weren't ever documented taken away as Wyndham clamps down on the loopholes.  I am just relaying statements on behalf of Wyndham via the contacts I have at the company.  I am not agreeing or disagreeing with the statements.  Take them for what you will.

That said, I always try to understand both perspectives and somehow find a middle ground - because the middle ground is almost always where the truth lies IME.  It seldom lies on the fringes of either side in comparison.  As I have also said in the past, I don't believe that demonizing either the person or the company is productive.  I prefer to work together to make things better for everyone whenever possible.  I don't see the point in repeatedly complaining about Wyndham any more than I see the point in repeatedly complaining about mega-renters.  I have problems with both entities and have outlined my issues with both entities in past threads and will not re-litigate these complaints as it is not productive to do so.  I will continue to attempt to establish and promote a healthy middle ground for the benefit of everyone on this forum to the best of my ability.  

So if we understand the legal precedent of equity as it relates to this reported issue - what is our suggested resolution?  Let's work toward solutions if at all possible.


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## Sandy VDH (Jul 12, 2022)

I have a convoluted ownership, it is made up of resale and a direct purchase weeks from way back in the Vacation Break days in the 1990s, that then converted to Fairfield, then Wyndham.  At some point in there I then PIC'ed two weeks, converted the lot of Wyndhams into points, did an equity swap to avoid a huge SA, and purchased points from wyndham the one time, and made the whole lot of it VIPP.  They tried to take away my VIPP at the time they ruled resales didn't count, but I had it written into the contract.  I provided the proof, and they reinstated my VIPP.  

So it is possible to have things in the contract and paperwork as long as it is written in at the time of signing up.  Now VIPP could change, but that fact that I have VIPP does not.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 12, 2022)

dayooper said:


> I understand that. The only way to prevent is by having the conversation recorded, and we know that will never happen. All we really can do is try and inform like we have been doing. With that being said, if you think that salesman telling lies and stretching the truth is acceptable behavior just because it’s not enforceable, than we are not on the same thought processes.



It depends on the state in which you are signing the contract.  Some states allow for people to be recorded without their direct consent, other states do not allow this.  If you're in a state that allows recording without consent - then you can record the entire conservation either overtly or covertly.  I often put my smartphone on the table when we attend sales updates.  I've had several salespeople ask me if I'm recording the conversation when I've done so.  I have never actually recorded the sales update conversations to date.

I never said it was acceptable behavior - I simply said oral contracts are difficult to prove.  The timeshare sales process is intentionally designed with this in mind.  As someone else said, we had hopes over the past few years that the behaviors would change - I've even had several salespeople tell us that 70% of the salesforce was let go during the pandemic and those that remain are the "good ones" who treat people fairly (I'm am paraphrasing here to be clear).  We've seen a few changes that are pointing in the right direction - like the cards that some resorts now hand out stating exactly what the expectations are when attending the meeting - including a 60 minute time maximum - and receiving the agreed upon gift when arriving as opposed to the gift being used to hold you hostage until after the salespeople are done with you.  There are still many steps that need to be taken.  My biggest ask that I post into any feedback mechanism I receive - is to make the entire sales update process opt-in as opposed to opt-out.  Give the wristbands and parking passes at the reception desk upon check-in, and then the owner can choose whether or not to opt into attending a sales update.  I realize this is a tall ask - but I will continue to push this as I think at the end of the day this is where things need to go if delivering the best customer experience is really what Wyndham wants to place emphasis on - the rest is just conversation so to speak.

Wyndham's core problem is that they are using a legacy sales model that isn't customer experience focused and customer experience driven via a real reputational model.  The sales and marketing division has way too much sway within the company still.  To date they are making changes here and there but not making sea changes to the entire model.  I understand the why - doing so will likely have a seriously negative impact on their revenues in the short term especially - and this goes directly against their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders as a publicly held company.  I don't have all of the answers as to how to make such a large transition - but that's not going to stop me from promoting the end points where I think this all has to go long term.  It's Wyndham's job to figure out how to get there - it's my job as their customer (owner) to simply tell them what I want from my ownership experience.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 12, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> After all, isn't one of the primary reasons selling timeshares is so successful is because they are catching people in vacation mode, etc? Prime targets for making poor decisions.



Yes, one of the articles here says exactly this: 









						I did the wrong thing. What do I do now?
					

So, you’ve read our ‘Did I Do the Right Thing?’ blog article, and you’re pretty sure you fall into the category of ‘I did the wrong thing.’ What do you do now? Below we outline a step by step process on what to do right now, along with the journey you should take to educate […]



					wyndhamexperts.org


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 12, 2022)

First they realigned our contracts to the same use year.  We had different use years on our contracts, which allowed us to move points as we wanted and we rarely had points expire or points that needed to be moved over.

Then they took away free guest certificates as a platinum benefit, started charging for them after a certain amount, and yes, we used a lot more than the allotment.  

Other changes recently affected us as well, like credit pooling dates being changed.  

Wyndham is all about changing what we originally had.  I don't care that resale doesn't get benefits of VIP, even though we took great advantage of it while we had it.  But I do worry about what happens in the future, when further benefits are taken away.  It's always changing.


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## dayooper (Jul 12, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> It depends on the state in which you are signing the contract.  Some states allow for people to be recorded without their direct consent, other states do not allow this.  If you're in a state that allows recording without consent - then you can record the entire conservation either overtly or covertly.  I often put my smartphone on the table when we attend sales updates.  I've had several salespeople ask me if I'm recording the conversation when I've done so.  I have never actually recorded the sales update conversations to date.
> 
> I never said it was acceptable behavior - I simply said oral contracts are difficult to prove.  The timeshare sales process is intentionally designed with this in mind.  As someone else said, we had hopes over the past few years that the behaviors would change - I've even had several salespeople tell us that 70% of the salesforce was let go during the pandemic and those that remain are the "good ones" who treat people fairly (I'm am paraphrasing here to be clear).  We've seen a few changes that are pointing in the right direction - like the cards that some resorts now hand out stating exactly what the expectations are when attending the meeting - including a 60 minute time maximum - and receiving the agreed upon gift when arriving as opposed to the gift being used to hold you hostage until after the salespeople are done with you.  There are still many steps that need to be taken.  My biggest ask that I post into any feedback mechanism I receive - is to make the entire sales update process opt-in as opposed to opt-out.  Give the wristbands and parking passes at the reception desk upon check-in, and then the owner can choose whether or not to opt into attending a sales update.  I realize this is a tall ask - but I will continue to push this as I think at the end of the day this is where things need to go if delivering the best customer experience is really what Wyndham wants to place emphasis on - the rest is just conversation so to speak.
> 
> Wyndham's core problem is that they are using a legacy sales model that isn't customer experience focused and customer experience driven via a real reputational model.  The sales and marketing division has way too much sway within the company still.  To date they are making changes here and there but not making sea changes to the entire model.  I understand the why - doing so will likely have a seriously negative impact on their revenues in the short term especially - and this goes directly against their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders as a publicly held company.  I don't have all of the answers as to how to make such a large transition - but that's not going to stop me from promoting the end points where I think this all has to go long term.  It's Wyndham's job to figure out how to get there - it's my job as their customer (owner) to simply tell them what I want from my ownership experience.



Good reply! Everything in here I agree with. I just don’t believe that we should just brush aside the actions of salesmen here as “it’s just what they do.”


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## Rolltydr (Jul 12, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> @HitchHiker71 But if you are given a status and enjoy that status for years, and Wyndham turns the tides, then it's very obvious that Wyndham recognized the very status you enjoyed but took it away.
> 
> Now the big company takes an owner down a notch because of a change in policy or a realization that this was done incorrectly, and that is just not right.
> 
> The mantra on TUG is that everything Wyndham does is okay.  Wait until they do that to you.


We bought our first Developer contract in 2015, 450k points getting us to Silver VIP, which was 400k at that time. We enjoyed cancel and rebook, frequent VIP unit upgrades (often combined with cancel and rebook), and VIP benefits for all resale points after purchasing those contracts. Those were NEVER permanent benefits that were promised to us. They were loopholes in Wyndham’s processes which we were able to take advantage of. Once those loopholes were closed, we adjusted to the new realities and we continue to use and enjoy our Wyndham timeshares. We still occasionally get the VIP room upgrades, just not nearly as often. I guess I could blame Wyndham for closing loopholes that benefitted the few at the expense of the majority but that seems shortsighted. I was never paying for those things since they were not part of the VIP benefits. I was getting something for nothing, as was everyone else in a similar situation. Wyndham closed those loopholes for the benefit of the majority of their owners. That is good business, regardless of the size of the company.

Now, their IT system sucks and it would be to the benefit of ALL the owners if they would fix it. I’m also bothered by the comments from @HitchHiker71 that they don’t seem to be as interested in working with him and @Richelle as they have in the past to correct some problems and implement suggested system improvements. So, there are many ways in which Wyndham can improve the owner experience. Closing loopholes is one of them, but definitely not the only one.


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## slabeaume (Jul 12, 2022)

I've expected this to happen for many years now.  I really can't believe it took them this long to find their "mistake".  I took advantage of it as much as I could, knowing some day it was probably going to end.  My questions now are:  how many extra points are they compensating us with and since we're past the "new" time for depositing points into the pool, can we still do it and until when?


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## paxsarah (Jul 12, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> The sales and marketing division has way too much sway within the company still.


I feel like we're seeing this in the most recent responses people have reported getting when requesting to be added to the "do not sell/gift" list. Responses used to come from legal and confirmed the addition to the list. Now, the responses come from owner care (I think) and simply say that there is no such "do not sell" list and that owners may be asked to attend, and that the updates are optional. Obviously phone sales may be subject to do not call laws, hence legal's involvement, whereas onsite "updates" are not - and I would guess sales had a hand in the new confirmation language.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 12, 2022)

We bought in 2007.  Promises were made, and we have the original documentation and a blue Wyndham/ Fairfield folder with all VIP Platinum benefits listed on it.  I kept it.  Unlimited guest certificates (FREE) and all of our other benefits pre-printed on a folder, which is better than a change of a resort directory on a webiste.  That resort directory can be changed any time. 

Never were we promised resale would get VIP, never did our salesperson tell us that.  I found that out on TUG.  Yep.  TUG members were open and forthright about Wyndham benefits back then.  

But even after guest certificates were limited to so many per million, the sales' team at Bali Hai were still saying to buyers, "You get unlimited free guest certificates." I corrected our salesperson.  I told him that was absolutely a lie.  We went to a presentation and heard this claim around us, and our salesperson told us that as well.  They were working hard to convert Bali Hai and other PAHIO owners to Wyndham.  

It's so disgusting, these sales presentations.  You need a shower after going to those sleazy things with Wyndham.  We are on the "do not ask us to attend," and if they did make a mistake and ask us, I would be loud in a room like the one at Bali Hai.  I would let them know how really disgusting it is that they change benefits.  

Just to be fair, we did attend a presentation with Marriott that was just as sleazy.  Back when Dave M. was the moderator on the Marriott forum, I asked if what the salesperson said was true, and he said absolutely not.


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## bnoble (Jul 12, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> The sales and marketing division has way too much sway within the company still.


That's because everything else is a cost center.

The timeshare sales process is not particularly different from most anything else, except in a matter of degree. I can think of dozens and dozens of times when someone selling me something either didn't mention an obvious limitation, embellished what was possible, or allowed me to maintain an inaccurate understanding of a product in its favor. While commerce doesn't _have to_ be an adversarial process, it nearly always is.

My "business" is no different: Michigan will tell you why getting a degree is critical, and worth every penny of the quarter million dollars you will spend on tuition, and why Michigan is the best value in the US. I spend a lot of time at student recruiting events telling students that it doesn't matter where they go to school, as long as it feels like a good fit. The Admissions office still invites me to go, but they also nearly panic every time I have the microphone.


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## Ty1on (Jul 12, 2022)

slabeaume said:


> I've expected this to happen for many years now.  I really can't believe it took them this long to find their "mistake".  I took advantage of it as much as I could, knowing some day it was probably going to end.  My questions now are:  how many extra points are they compensating us with and since we're past the "new" time for depositing points into the pool, can we still do it and until when?



They knew about it.  Correcting it would have been an expensive process for small benefit to the company.  Investing in an entirely new back-end system allows them to make this change at the same time.


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## WManning (Jul 12, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> @HitchHiker71 But if you are given a status and enjoy that status for years, and Wyndham turns the tides, then it's very obvious that Wyndham recognized the very status you enjoyed but took it away.
> 
> Now the big company takes an owner down a notch because of a change in policy or a realization that this was done incorrectly, and that is just not right.
> 
> The mantra on TUG is that everything Wyndham does is okay.  Wait until they do that to you.


Not all are policy changes but we're enfocement of existing benefits. Like I said in a earlier post "breaking the speed limit daily doesn't make it legal". Wyndham is just eliminating alot of loopholes and abuse of the system. These changes help a majority of owners and Wyndham also benefits. It eliminates some rental competition and creates free inventory from mega renters that throw up the white flag and exit via Ovations. This helps raise profits which enhances shareholder value.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 12, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Enough to make it so that people don't even bother to shoot for VIP. I personally was too scared to PIC to Gold before November 2020 because I felt like sometime down the road Wyndham will say that my PICs no longer count towards status because they changed their exchange affilliation or something. That's the exact kind of BS that I can totally see Wyndham try and pull. I remember I got the idea because @HitchHiker71 did just that and showed how it would pay for itself pretty quickly, but I have really low risk tolerance so I NOPED out. I instead used the money to replace my husband's car sooner than I normally would so we could drive to further locations.



I agree it was a calculated risk on my part.  During many a sales updates they have used the FOMO sales tactic on me saying that my PIC contracts are going to eventually be disqualified, or Wyndham may change the rules, or the PIC contracts aren't transfer eligible to my progeny, and therefore I should buy the 508k block of points instead - and points will only get more expensive in the future vs buying them now.  If/when that occurs I will reevaluate how best to proceed - but I'm not in the habit of making decisions based upon what might or might not happen at some future point in time.  I'm four years into my ownership as of July 2022 and still going strong on the PIC Plus front.  Still on track to realize my ROI within roughly ten years even with dropping down from VIPP to VIPG after my bonus point contract expired in Sept 2020.  Sure I'd love to get back up to VIPP for the 50% discount window benefit - but I just cannot justify purchasing 400k more points to do so - and all of the loopholes are now closed that allowed previous owners to upgrade without breaking the bank so to speak.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 12, 2022)

OutSkiing said:


> It is interesting that PIC was mentioned .. I wonder if anyone here with PIC points is affected. BTW my wait for an answer from Wyndham about what sales promised in 2021 is not up until middle of this week.
> Bob



Based upon what we have learned - I would surmise that this issue would potentially occur for owners that have enrolled biennial PIC plus contracts prior to November 2013.  Not everyone who did so falls into this affected bucket - but some do - so if you fall into this bucket - you may be impacted.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 12, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> I feel like we're seeing this in the most recent responses people have reported getting when requesting to be added to the "do not sell/gift" list. Responses used to come from legal and confirmed the addition to the list. Now, the responses come from owner care (I think) and simply say that there is no such "do not sell" list and that owners may be asked to attend, and that the updates are optional. Obviously phone sales may be subject to do not call laws, hence legal's involvement, whereas onsite "updates" are not - and I would guess sales had a hand in the new confirmation language.



Yes, I've seen the same updated verbiage posted on the FB groups as well.  I suspect it's because that donotcall@wyn.com was a relative unknown until it started getting socialized on the FB groups and it caught someone's attention within Wyndham that a ton of owners are now opting out via that email address, so Wyndham is adjusting the verbiage to minimize the negative impact to their sales and marketing division.  Again, I get the why - it is likely starting to negatively impact their bottom line and interfere with their fiduciary duties toward their shareholders.  I also think that the fact that so many owners are signing up to opt-out of sales updates - should tell Wyndham something important - make the sales update process opt-in as opposed to opt-out.  If Wyndham truly values their customer/owner experience - this is what the company needs to do.  Wyndham cannot continue to sell a product using deceptive sales practices and back of the napkin mathematics that encourage an impulse purchase of tens of thousands of dollars as the basis of the start of any good customer relationship, while claiming to be an ethical company all along - that is being duplicitous without a doubt.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 12, 2022)

bnoble said:


> That's because everything else is a cost center.
> 
> The timeshare sales process is not particularly different from most anything else, except in a matter of degree. I can think of dozens and dozens of times when someone selling me something either didn't mention an obvious limitation, embellished what was possible, or allowed me to maintain an inaccurate understanding of a product in its favor. While commerce doesn't _have to_ be an adversarial process, it nearly always is.
> 
> My "business" is no different: Michigan will tell you why getting a degree is critical, and worth every penny of the quarter million dollars you will spend on tuition, and why Michigan is the best value in the US. I spend a lot of time at student recruiting events telling students that it doesn't matter where they go to school, as long as it feels like a good fit. The Admissions office still invites me to go, but they also nearly panic every time I have the microphone.



I agree - we do it even at the software company I work at.  When we're in sales mode - we emphasize what we do well and minimize or avoid talking about our pain points where we don't do well.  Unless the customer is intelligent enough to ask about those weak points - we aren't going to volunteer them until after the deal closes.  Then, we hold Q&A sessions after product training, along with design review sessions, and _then _we speak openly about the pain points and limitations.  Oftentimes we are asked why we didn't speak about these pain points prior, well, because we'd be less likely to make the sale, and because these pain points exist with almost all products in the marketplace really (there is no magic bullet).  In this respect, I agree it's somewhat adversarial regardless of the industry in scope - though perhaps to a lesser degree when compared to the timeshare industry (used car salesmen come to mind as a close equal though).

That said, at least in my industry vertical (software sales and service), with the move of everything to the cloud/SaaS - most organizations are moving to a success management business model.  This is because as the customer base stops buying perpetual software licensing for premise based software installations and instead moves to purchasing SaaS subscriptions for cloud-based solutions - success management principles become much more important and net new software sales becomes less important.  This is because once someone signs up for a subscription - the success management teams become responsible for retention, upsell and cross-sell activities - and therefore post-sale relationship management and customer experience become the priority.  As the customer base converts over to subscriptions - eventually net new sales becomes a very small part of the overall business model - and success management becomes the primary focus area.  Point being - success management principles are designed to ensure ongoing CSAT post-sale over the long term.  It's all about building trust over the long term with each customer.  It's not about selling the customer something via the pre-sales and sales teams and then throwing the sale over the fence into support/post-sales teams.  It's about ensuring the customer is happy throughout the entire pre-sales, sales, and post-sale process persistently.  This is not the way Wyndham works today - as is evidenced by how sales behaves.  They don't care about the methods used to sell their product - once they have their hooks into you - they simply disappear (as many people can attest to - the salesperson disappears after the initial sale) - and then the post-sale customer service teams are left to pick up the pieces.  It is a broken business model in today's world.  Companies that realize this and adapt and move toward a success management model will stay around - most companies that don't adapt will die on the vine in comparison - because their competition is building trusted advisory type relationships over the long term - and no sales tactics can beat out a long term trusted relationship model.  The newer automotive manufacturers like Tesla, Lucid, Rivian, etc., the pure play BEVS - are using a success management model.  The traditional auto manufacturers are for the most part still relying on the old broken traditional dealer based sales model in comparison.  We are watching this transition play out across various different industries at present.  It is interesting to watch.

Which brings me to another thought that I don't often bring up, but why not.    If we really expect Wyndham to replace the retail timeshare revenue stream with something else - what do we expect that revenue stream to be?  My honest answer is Extra Holidays - direct corporate timeshare rentals.  Why is Wyndham making the changes we're all witnessing?  Because they recognize they need to build new income streams to replace the age old retail timeshare sales revenue stream over time.  If that means that Wyndham has to become the primary rental arm - well then we have to decide what we really want as owners.  If we want opt-in only timeshare sales, then we need to accept that Wyndham needs to become the renter of their timeshare resorts in order to compensate for the revenue losses tied to the current opt-out timeshare sales model.  We cannot have it both ways.  There are other options - such as timeshare leases as opposed to perpetual ownerships, which I think is also going to become more prevalent, so the revenue replacements will utilize a multi-pronged approach - but my prognostication is that Wyndham will eventually eliminate the vast majority of owner-based rentals and absorb this revenue directly.  Again, Wyndham has a primary fiduciary responsibility to it's shareholders to generate revenue and shareholder profits.  Is this a controversial conclusion on my part?  Perhaps - but that's what I see happening long term - a question of when not if.

EDIT:  One last comment while I'm on a roll.  Even the CSAT emails are sales driven.  The very opening question in the "Tell us about your stay at..." emails has nothing to do with the actual stay, screenshot below for reference:





What does my likelihood of recommending Wyndham to a friend have to do with my stay at OTA?  The answer in my view, is nothing.  This is a sales driven inquiry that has little to do with customer satisfaction specific to my stay at OTA, and just another example of how sales driven the entire Wyndham enterprise still is.  This is what needs to change.


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## bnoble (Jul 12, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> make the sales update process opt-in as opposed to opt-out.


It already is opt-in, but it takes conscious effort to remember that in the conversation with the body snatcher.

For example, at my most recent check-in at Smuggs: Wyndham owners and RCI inbounds were sent directly to  the "concierge" not the regular Smugglers Notch staff. The former handled check-in and the tour invitation all in the same conversation. Everything was pleasant and cordial, lots of good resort and area information, and then the hammer: "We set aside 11:30AM tomorrow for your update. If that doesn't work for you we can pick another time." Oh, I won't be attending. "Are you sure?" Quite firmly: Yes, I'm sure. I am not going to attend and I _*never*_ do; time on vacation is too important.

At this point, I'll give the body snatcher credit in that she looked genuinely and empathetically sad that I had such a negative impression of the process. That was well done.

I guess depending on your perspective, pre-scheduling it makes it opt-out. But, no one physically takes me to the tour; I'd have to get there of my own free will. I won't ever do that. So in that sense, it is always opt-in.

Edited to add: thinking about it, I don't particularly begrudge the body snatchers. They have a job to do and a living to make, and this is one way to do it. As long as the conversation remains cordial and respectful, fine. I can even abide by the infrequent lie ("Oh, it's not a sales meeting") but that's pushing it.


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## bnoble (Jul 12, 2022)

One way to help make the pre-tour process easier is to remember: these people are not your friends, and you do not owe them anything. You are free to ignore any uncomfortable feelings that might come up when you tell them you are not going on the tour. Those feelings are normal for most any human (it is how we are wired) but that doesn't mean you have to own them or act on them. As one of my mentors puts it: I am responsible for my _second_ thought and my _first_ action. The first thought is not my problem.

Here's another example of what I mean: There are many people who have my phone number and can call me for support at any time. I don't know the full set of those people--they don't always give me theirs, and they can also share mine with others. So if an unknown number comes up on my cell, I will usually answer it in case it is one of them and they need something. That means I end up answering a bunch of telemarketer calls, just in case. As soon as I know that's what I have, I hang up. I don't even bother saying anything. I don't owe that telemarketer anything, and they have no claim on my time. Any bad feelings that accompany that are observed and allowed to pass on by.

This takes a little bit of practice, and I've found that having a meditation practice makes it easier to do. But, having it in my arsenal makes these kinds of interactions much much easier.


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## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch (Jul 12, 2022)

WManning said:


> Why not ask Wyndham to have resale points grandfathered in and be used with VIP benefits? Wyndham is tring to eliminate all loopholes that existed but we're not a listed benefit. It seems to me a lot of VIP owners want themselves excluded if it affects their situation. Someone in a earlier post commented that owners should feel lucky they were able to recieve more then what was listed as a benefit. Just maybe after Wyndham corrects all the system loopholes its possible they might try to fix the online user experiance!



If there have been years or decades of confusion revolving resale points, and Wyndham has been honoring resale, absolutely!  It is one thing for salesmen to lie and dupe an owner, and another thing when Wyndham agrees that a VIP level has been established.

Let's say Target is offering a $25 Starbucks gift card on orders of $500+ on Black Friday.  Turns out the promo is working for $200 orders, the employees are all pushing it, a few stores are even putting up signage.  Do you really want to hear years later, that Target goofed, that those giftcards need to be returned?  In the business world you eat your own mistakes, and make sure it doesn't happen again.


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## OutSkiing (Jul 12, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Actually we haven't seen any actual proof that the specific VIP tier was written into the contract.  I'd like to see proof - because every contract I've ever read and reviewed says the exact opposite in the fine print - that the entire VIP program is subject to change at any time - up to and including termination of the program in entirety.


I will need to wait until home last week in July to dig out the contract and see what was written. Something was written but I worry it  was not as strong as I wanted. My wife think se remembers grandfather but it may have been weaker such as member will become Founders.

Bob


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## chapjim (Jul 13, 2022)

OutSkiing said:


> I will need to wait until home last week in July to dig out the contract and see what was written. Something was written but I worry it  was not as strong as I wanted. My wife think se remembers grandfather but it may have been weaker such as member will become Founders.
> 
> Bob



So this entire thread may have been started with an erroneous or invalid premise.


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## Rolltydr (Jul 13, 2022)

chapjim said:


> So this entire thread may have been started with an erroneous or invalid premise.


It wouldn’t be the first!


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Jul 13, 2022)

bnoble said:


> It already is opt-in, but it takes conscious effort to remember that in the conversation with the body snatcher.
> 
> For example, at my most recent check-in at Smuggs: Wyndham owners and RCI inbounds were sent directly to  the "concierge" not the regular Smugglers Notch staff. The former handled check-in and the tour invitation all in the same conversation. Everything was pleasant and cordial, lots of good resort and area information, and then the hammer: "We set aside 11:30AM tomorrow for your update. If that doesn't work for you we can pick another time." Oh, I won't be attending. "Are you sure?" Quite firmly: Yes, I'm sure. I am not going to attend and I _*never*_ do; time on vacation is too important.
> 
> ...



I disagree that it's opt-in today.  It certainly doesn't make the owner/customer feel as though it's opt-in.  It's opt-in in name only.  It's really a high pressure opt-in system - which to me is really opt-out at the end of the day.  The entire system was built based upon psychological data that shows that the majority of people have difficulty saying no repeatedly and have a tendency to want to believe and trust other people.  In other words, the entire sales model leveraged by the timeshare industry was and is intentionally designed to manipulate people's tendencies.  Sure there are those like me, that can tolerate and manage these manipulative and deceptive models because I've taught myself about them over time.  But most people aren't like me, so I've learned in this life.  My personality type according to Myers-Briggs is 3% of the population.  I'm an oddball by definition.   

That said - I don't blame the body snatchers either.  They are in it to win it so to speak - and they are largely commission based and just doing whatever they can to earn money to support their families just like everyone else.  I place responsibility on the company that created the system and that teaches these people how to deploy and employ deceptive sales practices - and make no mistake - Wyndham may practice cognitive dissonance on this topic - but they are very well aware of what goes on.  They employ covert recording sessions regularly to ensure things don't spin out of control - while honing their practices which push boundaries to sell the product.  This includes the concierge desk.  If Wyndham really want to offer better owner experiences and customer service - they will endorse an opt-out based system - and staff the concierge desks with employees that are actually from customer service.  The concierge desk is staffed entirely by the marketing team (part of the sales and marketing division), therefore their primary mission is to market the sales updates and get owners and renters to attend the sales updates.  Their primary mission is not to provide customer service.  Some do a better job of customer service than others without a doubt - but if customer service was job one at Wyndham - the concierge desks would be staffed primarily by customer service personnel - and if you wanted to opt-in - the customer service concierge would then have you speak to someone else from the marketing division regarding attending a sales update.  Again - I realize this is a very tall ask - but this has been and will continue to be my ask whenever I have the opportunity to provide feedback on this particular topic.


----------



## cbyrne1174 (Jul 13, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I disagree that it's opt-in today.  It certainly doesn't make the owner/customer feel as though it's opt-in.  It's opt-in in name only.  It's really a high pressure opt-in system - which to me is really opt-out at the end of the day.  The entire system was built based upon psychological data that shows that the majority of people have difficulty saying no repeatedly and have a tendency to want to believe and trust other people.  In other words, the entire sales model leveraged by the timeshare industry was and is intentionally designed to manipulate people's tendencies.  Sure there are those like me, that can tolerate and manage these manipulative and deceptive models because I've taught myself about them over time.  But most people aren't like me, so I've learned in this life.  My personality type according to Myers-Briggs is 3% of the population.  I'm an oddball by definition.
> 
> That said - I don't blame the body snatchers either.  They are in it to win it so to speak - and they are largely commission based and just doing whatever they can to earn money to support their families just like everyone else.  I place responsibility on the company that created the system and that teaches these people how to deploy and employ deceptive sales practices - and make no mistake - Wyndham may practice cognitive dissonance on this topic - but they are very well aware of what goes on.  They employ covert recording sessions regularly to ensure things don't spin out of control - while honing their practices which push boundaries to sell the product.  This includes the concierge desk.  If Wyndham really want to offer better owner experiences and customer service - they will endorse an opt-out based system - and staff the concierge desks with employees that are actually from customer service.  The concierge desk is staffed entirely by the marketing team (part of the sales and marketing division), therefore their primary mission is to market the sales updates and get owners and renters to attend the sales updates.  Their primary mission is not to provide customer service.  Some do a better job of customer service than others without a doubt - but if customer service was job one at Wyndham - the concierge desks would be staffed primarily by customer service personnel - and if you wanted to opt-in - the customer service concierge would then have you speak to someone else from the marketing division regarding attending a sales update.  Again - I realize this is a very tall ask - but this has been and will continue to be my ask whenever I have the opportunity to provide feedback on this particular topic.


I've openly asked why do I keep getting offered to attend updates when I have 8 resale contracts and have already been to over 20 of them just to get the gift and am clearly never going to buy anything and they said that they have a quota that they have to hit regardless of the members chances of purchasing. In the last 5 or so that Ive been to, the sales staff don't even bother with me, but rather complain at me for continuing to come to the updates. I just say that every time I tell them no, they offer me more money and call my room and I'm honest about them not having a snowball's chance in hell of selling me anything.


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## OutSkiing (Jul 14, 2022)

chapjim said:


> So this entire thread may have been started with an erroneous or invalid premise.


The write-in is just one (important) detail .. circumstance is the same .. made a purchase last year to become founders.

Bob


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## chapjim (Jul 14, 2022)

OutSkiing said:


> The write-in is just one (important) detail .. circumstance is the same .. made a purchase last year to become founders.
> 
> Bob



The point of your original post was that Wyndham had reneged on a contractual term, that you would be grandfathered to VIP Founders.  Now, it seems you're not certain that the contract included anything about grandfathering.  We'll wait until the end of July to see what the contract really says but if there is nothing there about grandfathering, this thread is for naught, having been based on a flawed memory.

The logic of an EOY contract counting half seems unassailable.


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## lost patience (Jul 14, 2022)

@chapjim  So it is ok that Wyndham is changing a feature that took us to VIPP?    Our EOY contracts were already included in our membership when we then moved to VIPF.    Our case is similar but different.  Our EOY contracts were acquired many years ago.   Adding a small contract in 2021 took us to founders.  Why did a 325K EOY could as 325k towards VIPP?  No idea, but it did and as of today does.  No argument that going forward NEW purchases would not.    The issue is the same as every other recent Wyndham change.  They are removing benefits that we were TOLD we would have.    I'm very interested learning what other owners are being told.    It seems like Bob & I are the only ones on TUGG impacted.  Another case of bad will towards current owners


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## Ty1on (Jul 14, 2022)

chapjim said:


> The point of your original post was that Wyndham had reneged on a contractual term, that you would be grandfathered to VIP Founders.  Now, it seems you're not certain that the contract included anything about grandfathering.  We'll wait until the end of July to see what the contract really says but if there is nothing there about grandfathering, this thread is for naught, having been based on a flawed memory.
> 
> The logic of an EOY contract counting half seems unassailable.



It's unassailable in my mind, as well.  That said, just like people bought because they were coached by sales to apply VIP benefits to resale contracts and to cancel and rebook and both of those advantages are either expressly or effectively removed, a lot of people were coached to use their EOYs to achieve VIP status.  I get that it's been a "glitch" that is being fixed, but I'm hard pressed to see where the company is standing by the assurances that it HAS to know its salesmen have made to buyers for years.  Any other business, the company would rather take a bit of a loss than make their salesmen look dishonest.  I get "if it isn't in the contract it was never said" but I have experience with countless examples where an employer stood by a salesman's promise even though it wasn't in writing.  And these promises weren't one-offs by rogue salesmen.  They were part of the spiel in every sales office in the nation.


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## ddc (Jul 14, 2022)

I am also an affected Platinum owner.  I purchased Bali Hai and Kai Eo Kai Biennial float weeks in 2012 and in 2015 purchased an additional UDI contract to become Platinum.  I also have 2 PIC Plus weeks which total 259,000 points toward my VIP status.  I have enjoyed the benefits of this ownership for many years.  With the reduction of points toward my VIP status, I will soon have 720,000 points including 461,000 developer points and 259,000 PIC week points.  Gold status is now 800k points but since my purchases were from a time that allowed 700k points as Gold, I would expect that I would be downgraded to Gold (grandfathered) as I suspect there are many who were grandfathered during the point status change last year.  Would you agree that I should be Gold or am I missing something?  I do have a call into the number that was shown on the letter I received to verify my new status.  I did not receive the email.


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## chapjim (Jul 14, 2022)

lost patience said:


> @chapjim  So it is ok that Wyndham is changing a feature that took us to VIPP?    Our EOY contracts were already included in our membership when we then moved to VIPF.    Our case is similar but different.  Our EOY contracts were acquired many years ago.   Adding a small contract in 2021 took us to founders.  Why did a 325K EOY could as 325k towards VIPP?  No idea, but it did and as of today does.  No argument that going forward NEW purchases would not.    The issue is the same as every other recent Wyndham change.  They are removing benefits that we were TOLD we would have.    I'm very interested learning what other owners are being told.    It seems like Bob & I are the only ones on TUGG impacted.  Another case of bad will towards current owners



Please don't whine to me about Wyndham changing features!  I took a big hit when Wyndham split points into developer and resale and ceased granting VIP benefits to the resale points.  

We should be used to Wyndham changing features by now.  We should also understand that what we are TOLD isn't worth the paper it's written on.  Also, it should be clear by now that mere owners like us are not in the forefront of corporate Wyndham's thinking.

OP's initial post stated that VIPF was grandfathered according to the contract.  He has backed off that statement and said he might be wrong about the grandfathering part.  If there is nothing in the contract about being grandfathered to VIPF, then it is hard to say what Wyndham did was wrong.  EOY contract points should count half of annual contract points.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 14, 2022)

ddc said:


> I am also an affected Platinum owner.  I purchased Bali Hai and Kai Eo Kai Biennial float weeks in 2012 and in 2015 purchased an additional UDI contract to become Platinum.  I also have 2 PIC Plus weeks which total 259,000 points toward my VIP status.  I have enjoyed the benefits of this ownership for many years.  With the reduction of points toward my VIP status, I will soon have 720,000 points including 461,000 developer points and 259,000 PIC week points.  Gold status is now 800k points but since my purchases were from a time that allowed 700k points as Gold, I would expect that I would be downgraded to Gold (grandfathered) as I suspect there are many who were grandfathered during the point status change last year.  Would you agree that I should be Gold or am I missing something?  I do have a call into the number that was shown on the letter I received to verify my new status.  I did not receive the email.



That's an excellent question - will Wyndham honor the VIP valuations from the time you initially made the transaction - or will they use current points values to make that determination?  If you can, please call into the contact number and make this exact inquiry if you haven't already.  If you receive a response - please share it here so we can capture the stated response for others that may also be impacted.  I can also make this ask to my contacts as a follow up - and will share what I learn.


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## Mamagan (Jul 14, 2022)

We also received the letter over a week  ago and have been in contact w/the team handling this debacle. Many answers have been given, many more questions remain…chief among them is the big one…why is grandfathered status not being preserved when all rules in effect at the time of achieving said status were followed to the letter and the status has been shown as grandfathered after the 2020 VIP program change when higher points were required of owners going forward to make the new status levels?
As others have said in this thread, when a company makes or recognizes a past blunder in their system, that company should ethically shoulder the responsibility of that error, make the necessary correction GOING FORWARD, but not rescind benefits or status achieved by members who achieved their status by correctly following the procedures in effect at the time of purchases/conversion. 
If you purchase a vehicle and pay the stated price but the dealer finds that options included had been not priced correctly, the dealer doesn’t come and remove those options. The company learns from their error (which is incumbent on them to avoid in the first place), makes corrections going forward and doesn’t seek to get the consumer to pony up for the loss.
I have sent emails to Michael Brown (and his designated assistant in his absence) enumerating our particular case, but want others in this same burgeoning boat to know that they are not alone in feeling that fairness and corporate responsibility are the main issues in our present dilemma.  Wyndham needs to reconsider their unilateral benefit stripping plan and do the right thing.  Rules going forward should not impact those who followed the rules in effect when past purchases and conversions were made and completed.


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 14, 2022)

Ty1on said:


> It's unassailable in my mind, as well.  That said, just like people bought because they were coached by sales to apply VIP benefits to resale contracts and to cancel and rebook and both of those advantages are either expressly or effectively removed, a lot of people were coached to use their EOYs to achieve VIP status.  I get that it's been a "glitch" that is being fixed, but I'm hard pressed to see where the company is standing by the assurances that it HAS to know its salesmen have made to buyers for years.  Any other business, the company would rather take a bit of a loss than make their salesmen look dishonest.  I get "if it isn't in the contract it was never said" but I have experience with countless examples where an employer stood by a salesman's promise even though it wasn't in writing.  And these promises weren't one-offs by rogue salesmen.  They were part of the spiel in every sales office in the nation.


I worked on a system that printed advertising. We literally stopped the mainframe over night processing and the developers would go in and manipulate the files so that the advertising would print the way the salespeople sold it. Albeit it was likely in the customer's contract, but still the salesperson sold something we couldn't offer, and we still made it happen. Sales makes the world go round, the rest of us fix it. Companies can choose to back the promises of their salespeople or look the other way. My employer was reputable, Wyndham, hmmmm, not so much in my eyes.


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## Rolltydr (Jul 14, 2022)

Mamagan said:


> We also received the letter over a week  ago and have been in contact w/the team handling this debacle. Many answers have been given, many more questions remain…chief among them is the big one…why is grandfathered status not being preserved when all rules in effect at the time of achieving said status were followed to the letter and the status has been shown as grandfathered after the 2020 VIP program change when higher points were required of owners going forward to make the new status levels?
> As others have said in this thread, when a company makes or recognizes a past blunder in their system, that company should ethically shoulder the responsibility of that error, make the necessary correction GOING FORWARD, but not rescind benefits or status achieved by members who achieved their status by correctly following the procedures in effect at the time of purchases/conversion.
> If you purchase a vehicle and pay the stated price but the dealer finds that options included had been not priced correctly, the dealer doesn’t come and remove those options. The company learns from their error (which is incumbent on them to avoid in the first place), makes corrections going forward and doesn’t seek to get the consumer to pony up for the loss.
> I have sent emails to Michael Brown (and his designated assistant in his absence) enumerating our particular case, but want others in this same burgeoning boat to know that they are not alone in feeling that fairness and corporate responsibility are the main issues in our present dilemma.  Wyndham needs to reconsider their unilateral benefit stripping plan and do the right thing.  Rules going forward should not impact those who followed the rules in effect when past purchases and conversions were made and completed.


I’m having a very hard time understanding, or being remorseful, for people who have been taking advantage of a loophole and, basically, getting double the value of their contracts over the vast majority of owners. You got a helluva deal for all those years and now you’re whining that you only get the same value as the rest of us? Give me a break! Welcome to fairness, equitability, and getting what you paid for. As an owner of annual contracts, I believe Wyndham did exactly what they should have done for the vast majority of their owners! As for your car example, did a dealer ever give you a 2 for 1 deal? I didn’t think so.


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## paxsarah (Jul 14, 2022)

lost patience said:


> feature


One person's feature is another person's loophole.



ddc said:


> Gold status is now 800k points but since my purchases were from a time that allowed 700k points as Gold, I would expect that I would be downgraded to Gold (grandfathered) as I suspect there are many who were grandfathered during the point status change last year. Would you agree that I should be Gold or am I missing something?


It's specified on Page 312 in the current directory. You should be calculated according to the Legacy (grandfathered) levels, not the current levels.
"If you are a Legacy VIP by Wyndham member at a VIP tier and the legacy eligible point value of your membership decreases for any reason (e.g., because you sold or transferred one or more of your Developer-Purchased Ownership Interests), in order to maintain VIP status at the same or lower tier, you must meet the applicable VIP Point Tiers _prior to_ November 1, 2012 or November 10, 2020 depending on your original purchase or upgrade date and eligibility at that time (see current Eligibility Requirements)."



Mamagan said:


> when all rules in effect at the time of achieving said status were followed to the letter


I'm curious what the time of purchase was?


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## Mamagan (Jul 14, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> One person's feature is another person's loophole.
> 
> 
> It's specified on Page 312 in the current directory. You should be calculated according to the Legacy (grandfathered) levels, not the current levels.
> ...


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## Mamagan (Jul 14, 2022)

Purchase of latest developer points that qualified us to make an additional purchase of points eligible for conversion was in 2014; conversion to Wyndham points completed in early 2015, at which time we were qualified as Gold VIP.  We were told that would be the case at the 2014 sales meeting and Wyndham followed through as promised, after the conversion was finalized…Gold VIP was then listed in our Wyndham profile and it has remained that way, specifying grandfathered Gold ever since…until the notification letter of pending demotion arrived.
Original developer purchases were 2009 and 2010 followed by purchase/conversion PER RULES AT THAT TIME. We were advised in the aforementioned 2014 sales meeting that the latest developer purchase followed by the converted points would be the best way to achieve Gold status and told that later program changes would not “demote” us, as we would be thereafter grandfathered into and retain our Gold VIP status. 
The letter states biennial purchases prior to Nov. 2013 are being affected. Purchases after that date are supposedly correctly calculated, but Wyndham’s fuzzy math leaves those later purchases vulnerable to possible future downward reallocation in the Wyndham world of VIP eligibility.  Penalizing prior purchase transaction holders because of corporate rule changing after the fact is not ethical, no matter the excuses given. 
The subset of biennial owners that are being given notice of demotion due to Wyndham’s system faults are not the villains here.  If the rules at the purchase times were followed by the buyers, those rule provisions should still prevail for the grandfathered buyers. 
Chastising owners for protesting being unilaterally downgraded by Wyndham management after however many years of operating within the corporate rules in effect AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE just smacks of sour grapes.


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## paxsarah (Jul 14, 2022)

Mamagan said:


> Purchase of latest developer points that qualified us to make an additional purchase of points eligible for conversion was in 2014; conversion to Wyndham points completed in early 2015, at which time we were qualified as Gold VIP.  We were told that would be the case at the 2014 sales meeting and Wyndham followed through as promised, after the conversion was finalized…Gold VIP was then listed in our Wyndham profile and it has remained that way, specifying grandfathered Gold ever since…until the notification letter of pending demotion arrived.
> Original developer purchases were 2009 and 2010 followed by purchase/conversion PER RULES AT THAT TIME. We were advised in the aforementioned 2014 sales meeting that the latest developer purchase followed by the converted points would be the best way to achieve Gold status and told that later program changes would not “demote” us, as we would be thereafter grandfathered into and retain our Gold VIP status.
> The letter states biennial purchases prior to Nov. 2013 are being affected. Purchases after that date are supposedly correctly calculated, but Wyndham’s fuzzy math leaves those later purchases vulnerable to possible future downward reallocation in the Wyndham world of VIP eligibility.  Penalizing prior purchase transaction holders because of corporate rule changing after the fact is not ethical, no matter the excuses given.
> The subset of biennial owners that are being given notice of demotion due to Wyndham’s system faults are not the villains here.  If the rules at the purchase times were followed by the buyers, those rule provisions should still prevail for the grandfathered buyers.
> Chastising owners for protesting being unilaterally downgraded by Wyndham management after however many years of operating within the corporate rules in effect AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE just smacks of sour grapes.


So as far back as the 2009-10 directory, the written rules in the directory stated that biennial contracts counted as half the amount for VIP eligibility. Specifically on Page 342:



It seems that what you received was an exception to Wyndham's rules at the time. At least, I haven't found anything publicly in writing that codifies the exception that you and other owners were given. (I would once again encourage any owner subject to this adjustment to check their original contractual documents to see if there's anything in writing that made a specific exception for their account.) I would also be mad to lose it, because it was a smokin' good deal, but the reason it was a smokin' good deal is that it ran counter to Wyndham's published policy.


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## Rolltydr (Jul 14, 2022)

Mamagan said:


> Purchase of latest developer points that qualified us to make an additional purchase of points eligible for conversion was in 2014; conversion to Wyndham points completed in early 2015, at which time we were qualified as Gold VIP.  We were told that would be the case at the 2014 sales meeting and Wyndham followed through as promised, after the conversion was finalized…Gold VIP was then listed in our Wyndham profile and it has remained that way, specifying grandfathered Gold ever since…until the notification letter of pending demotion arrived.
> Original developer purchases were 2009 and 2010 followed by purchase/conversion PER RULES AT THAT TIME. We were advised in the aforementioned 2014 sales meeting that the latest developer purchase followed by the converted points would be the best way to achieve Gold status and told that later program changes would not “demote” us, as we would be thereafter grandfathered into and retain our Gold VIP status.
> The letter states biennial purchases prior to Nov. 2013 are being affected. Purchases after that date are supposedly correctly calculated, but Wyndham’s fuzzy math leaves those later purchases vulnerable to possible future downward reallocation in the Wyndham world of VIP eligibility.  Penalizing prior purchase transaction holders because of corporate rule changing after the fact is not ethical, no matter the excuses given.
> The subset of biennial owners that are being given notice of demotion due to Wyndham’s system faults are not the villains here.  If the rules at the purchase times were followed by the buyers, those rule provisions should still prevail for the grandfathered buyers.
> Chastising owners for protesting being unilaterally downgraded by Wyndham management after however many years of operating within the corporate rules in effect AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE just smacks of sour grapes.


Actually, you were UPGRADED by Wyndham and now you are getting EXACTLY what you are paying for.


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## WManning (Jul 14, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> So as far back as the 2009-10 directory, the written rules in the directory stated that biennial contracts counted as half the amount for VIP eligibility. Specifically on Page 342:
> View attachment 60113
> It seems that what you received was an exception to Wyndham's rules at the time. At least, I haven't found anything publicly in writing that codifies the exception that you and other owners were given. (I would once again encourage any owner subject to this adjustment to check their original contractual documents to see if there's anything in writing that made a specific exception for their account.) I would also be mad to lose it, because it was a smokin' good deal, but the reason it was a smokin' good deal is that it ran counter to Wyndham's published policy.


Resale points also never qualified for VIP benefits.  It was always very clear in directory that resale points did not qualify. A vast majority find it very convenient to believe since they beat the system for so long it was a benefit.  IMHO Wyndham is cleaning up the abuse of loopholes that cost shareholder value. Limiting GC`s has worked to eliminate another abuse.


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## ddc (Jul 19, 2022)

Has anyone had any further conversation with Wyndham regarding the VIP status downgrade?  I had left messages several times last week and this evening I received an email from a specialist that has been assigned to my case.  I have asked her to call me so we can discuss.  If anyone has had conversations they are willing to share, I would appreciate any information I can get before she calls.  Thank you!


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## slabeaume (Jul 22, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> That's an excellent question - will Wyndham honor the VIP valuations from the time you initially made the transaction - or will they use current points values to make that determination?  If you can, please call into the contact number and make this exact inquiry if you haven't already.  If you receive a response - please share it here so we can capture the stated response for others that may also be impacted.  I can also make this ask to my contacts as a follow up - and will share what I learn.



That is what I was wondering, too.  Does anyone remember what the VIP levels were back before 2013?


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## bnoble (Jul 22, 2022)

I think they were the same as they were prior to the introduction of Bronze, etc. I don’t recall them changing more than that one time since I’ve been an owner.


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## paxsarah (Jul 22, 2022)

slabeaume said:


> That is what I was wondering, too.  Does anyone remember what the VIP levels were back before 2013?


It was originally Silver (originally simply called "VIP") at 300k, Gold at 500k, and Platinum at 1 million.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 22, 2022)

Mamagan said:


> We also received the letter over a week  ago and have been in contact w/the team handling this debacle. Many answers have been given, many more questions remain…chief among them is the big one…why is grandfathered status not being preserved when all rules in effect at the time of achieving said status were followed to the letter and the status has been shown as grandfathered after the 2020 VIP program change when higher points were required of owners going forward to make the new status levels?
> As others have said in this thread, when a company makes or recognizes a past blunder in their system, that company should ethically shoulder the responsibility of that error, make the necessary correction GOING FORWARD, but not rescind benefits or status achieved by members who achieved their status by correctly following the procedures in effect at the time of purchases/conversion.
> If you purchase a vehicle and pay the stated price but the dealer finds that options included had been not priced correctly, the dealer doesn’t come and remove those options. The company learns from their error (which is incumbent on them to avoid in the first place), makes corrections going forward and doesn’t seek to get the consumer to pony up for the loss.
> I have sent emails to Michael Brown (and his designated assistant in his absence) enumerating our particular case, but want others in this same burgeoning boat to know that they are not alone in feeling that fairness and corporate responsibility are the main issues in our present dilemma.  Wyndham needs to reconsider their unilateral benefit stripping plan and do the right thing.  Rules going forward should not impact those who followed the rules in effect when past purchases and conversions were made and completed.


I agree, but Wyndham does not take any responsibility for what they do.  They just go back on their promises. 

This is what makes Wyndham a bad product because you cannot count on anything.  Pretty soon they will be telling owners that we can only use the resorts deeded to our points.


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## bnoble (Jul 22, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Pretty soon they will be telling owners that we can only use the resorts deeded to our points.


I get that you are angry at Wyndham, but this is not going to happen arbitrarily. Any CWA owner doesn't even have an underlying deed, so there is nothing to which to revert. My conversion documents are pretty clear about when and whether Wyndham can terminate the conversions, and there are some very specific conditions there, mostly having to do with either unpaid fees or collapse of the underlying HOA/Resort.

On the other hand, the conversion document is pretty clear that anything associated with the VIP program is ephemeral at best. To wit:


> Wyndham, in its sole discretion, with or without prior notice, may unilaterally expand or limit the point eligibility criteria for the VIP Program.



This gets back to something I've posted before: I'm a strict constructionist when it comes to timeshare purchases. I assume that anything they could possibly change or eliminate eventually will be changed/eliminated. That way I can never be surprised.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 22, 2022)

bnoble said:


> I get that you are angry at Wyndham, but this is not going to happen arbitrarily. Any CWA owner doesn't even have an underlying deed, so there is nothing to which to revert. My conversion documents are pretty clear about when and whether Wyndham can terminate the conversions, and there are some very specific conditions there, mostly having to do with either unpaid fees or collapse of the underlying HOA/Resort.
> 
> On the other hand, the conversion document is pretty clear that anything associated with the VIP program is ephemeral at best. To wit:
> 
> ...


Yes  I am angry, not for me, but for our daughter, who really counts on this income and has been renting for 15 years.  I was ready to walk away from all of it, but she needs this, and we are dealing with more than anyone here knows about when it comes to Wyndham.  All of the kids are on our accounts and all of them use Wyndham for some of their vacations.  

They have been vindictive toward us.  For one thing, they have one of our VIP Founder's accounts locked for too many guest certificates.  Maybe they need to say how many are allowed, so we can work within their idea of what is too many and what is just right.  No such rule, no such guidelines being bandied about.  Our second account has more Platinum Points and fewer resale, and that has our daughter's attention right now.  Why one account and not the other.  But of course we are always expecting the other one to receive the same treatment.  

But you are the voice of reason, and I do appreciate that.


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## chapjim (Jul 22, 2022)

bnoble said:


> I get that you are angry at Wyndham, but this is not going to happen arbitrarily. Any CWA owner doesn't even have an underlying deed, so there is nothing to which to revert. My conversion documents are pretty clear about when and whether Wyndham can terminate the conversions, and there are some very specific..
> 
> 
> This gets back to something I've posted before: I'm a strict constructionist when it comes to timeshare purchases. I assume that anything they could possibly change or eliminate eventually will be changed/eliminated. That way I can never be surprised.



Wyndham giveth and Wyndham taketh away.  Blessed be the name of . . . Nope, I can't finish it! 

[Edit:  I can't cite book, chapter, and verse.  It'll get deleted if do.]


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## bnoble (Jul 22, 2022)

I suspect there isn't going to be a guideline about how many GCs are okay. They want you out of the business, not just doing less business.

I feel for you and your daughter, but openly admitting that she's running a business with some of your accounts is probably not the way to get Wyndham to leave you alone. Maybe it is time for her to find something else.


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## chapjim (Jul 22, 2022)

bnoble said:


> I suspect there isn't going to be a guideline about how many GCs are okay. They want you out of the business, not just doing less business.
> 
> I feel for you and your daughter, but openly admitting that she's running a business with some of your accounts is probably not the way to get Wyndham to leave you alone. Maybe it is time for her to find something else.



She probably could find a slot with Wyndham, kind of like criminal defense attorneys becoming DAs.  There probably are very few Wyndham employees who better understand how things work.


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## scootr5 (Jul 22, 2022)

chapjim said:


> She probably could find a slot with Wyndham, kind of like criminal defense attorneys becoming DAs.  There probably are very few Wyndham employees who better understand how things work.



Or kind of like another previously frequent helpful poster whose name is sometimes undeservedly dragged through the mud.


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## bnoble (Jul 22, 2022)

chapjim said:


> Wyndham giveth and Wyndham taketh away. Blessed be the name of . . . Nope, I can't finish it!


I think of it more like this.

My relationship with Wyndham is adversarial*. They would like to get as much money out of me as possible for the services they provide. They will do whatever they believe will maximize their profits at my (literal) expense. Conversely, I would like to get as much value out of them for my vacations as possible. Can I still get "enough" value now, and do I expect to even if they do everything they can to maximize profits? If so, fine. I'm a satisfied customer. If not, I will liquidate. 

I don't begrudge them either way, because their job is to be profitable, not to make me happy.

-------------

*: I view most of my commercial relationships this way. Cynical? Maybe. But it avoids a lot of agita when things change in ways that cost me more money or devalue a product.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 22, 2022)

chapjim said:


> She probably could find a slot with Wyndham, kind of like criminal defense attorneys becoming DAs. There probably are very few Wyndham employees who better understand how things work.



Perhaps EH could use some good talent like this? The question is whether they would he willing to pay well enough best guess. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 22, 2022)

bnoble said:


> I suspect there isn't going to be a guideline about how many GCs are okay. They want you out of the business, not just doing less business.
> 
> I feel for you and your daughter, but openly admitting that she's running a business with some of your accounts is probably not the way to get Wyndham to leave you alone. Maybe it is time for her to find something else.



I suspect any such guidelines will only come to light after Wyndham accomplishes whatever their goals are with respect to eliminating enough rental activity generated from the ownership base. Once this war or containment is declared a victory - only then will the rules become clear for anyone who remains. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slabeaume (Jul 23, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> It was originally Silver (originally simply called "VIP") at 300k, Gold at 500k, and Platinum at 1 million.


Thanks, paxsarh.


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## OutSkiing (Jul 24, 2022)

ddc said:


> Has anyone had any further conversation with Wyndham regarding the VIP status downgrade?  I had left messages several times last week and this evening I received an email from a specialist that has been assigned to my case.  I have asked her to call me so we can discuss.  If anyone has had conversations they are willing to share, I would appreciate any information I can get before she calls.  Thank you!


We called back several times and got through to our specialist. He sent a standard form letter requesting us to document our concern and our desired outcome. The form letter is entirely focused on our September, 2021 purchase that took us to Founders, and the wording that was written into our contract at that time. The letter even referenced that 9/2021 contract number.  He said they will be doing something for us. Not sure what yet.

Bob


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## lost patience (Aug 9, 2022)

A quick update.   We received the letter by mail yesterday.   We did not receive the email.   I'll be calling today.


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## chapjim (Aug 9, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Perhaps EH could use some good talent like this? The question is whether they would he willing to pay well enough best guess.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I heard the IRS will be hiring!


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## Sandy VDH (Aug 9, 2022)

Were letter going out certified mail?


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## marciaheitz (Aug 9, 2022)

They just emailed me....didn't get a physical letter.


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## lost patience (Aug 10, 2022)

I did not receive the email.   I received the USPS letter in the mail.   It was not a certified letter.  Normal 1st class.   Same words as what @OutSkiing posted.


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## raygo123 (Aug 10, 2022)

Keep telling them it is part of the consideration given IN the contract.

Sent from my T906 using Tapatalk


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## lost patience (Aug 11, 2022)

I've called, left a message, and am waiting for a call back.  For others in this same situation, have they offered any viable option to get back to the VIP level you have been at?    Please, those of you that think we deserve to be downgraded, and think we don't deserve any options, keep those opinions to yourself.


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## Rolltydr (Aug 11, 2022)

lost patience said:


> I've called, left a message, and am waiting for a call back.  For others in this same situation, have they offered any viable option to get back to the VIP level you have been at?    Please, those of you that think we deserve to be downgraded, and think we don't deserve any options, keep those opinions to yourself.


You’re on a public forum. Some of us even pay the annual membership fee to help support those who maintain the forum. You are free to express your opinion, within the rules of the forum. So are those who disagree with you. You have no right to tell anyone to keep their opinion to themselves.


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## OutSkiing (Aug 13, 2022)

We finally received an email this week from a ‘Sales Experience Specialist’ saying she has an average of 70 cases at a time so she asked for 3 dates when we could do a conference call to discuss. We gave 3 dates, one has passed and nothing scheduled yet.


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## Ty1on (Aug 13, 2022)

OutSkiing said:


> We finally received an email this week from a ‘Sales Experience Specialist’ saying she has an average of 70 cases at a time so she asked for 3 dates when we could do a conference call to discuss. We gave 3 dates, one has passed and nothing scheduled yet.


I feel like with your story and documentation, ykou have the best chance at being made whole.  I hope they do right by you.


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## WManning (Aug 13, 2022)

Ty1on said:


> I feel like with your story and documentation, ykou have the best chance at being made whole.  I hope they do right by you.


It will be a uphill battle unless the documentation is included in the purchase agreement. Very hard to fight city hall with only verbal promises from sales team.


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## ddc (Aug 13, 2022)

OutSkiing said:


> We called back several times and got through to our specialist. He sent a standard form letter requesting us to document our concern and our desired outcome. The form letter is entirely focused on our September, 2021 purchase that took us to Founders, and the wording that was written into our contract at that time. The letter even referenced that 9/2021 contract number.  He said they will be doing something for us. Not sure what yet.
> 
> Bob


I did receive a call and emails from my specialist.  He asked for documentation that supported that I would be grandfathered platinum forever.  Unfortunately, I do not have anything in writing.  Only that I made a significant investment of 125k developer points to become platinum.  Points I didn't really need because if I wanted points, I would have bought resale.  I was buying the promise that platinum status would never be taken away.  He reviewed the documents I sent and replied that when the system upgrade happened, that I would become Gold status.  He advised that there would be a deposit of points to my account to compensate for the change in status and they would be deposited toward the end of the month of August for use in 2023.  I was not advised the amount of points I would receive.  Today I noticed that my account is no longer platinum and has been downgraded to gold.


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## ddc (Aug 13, 2022)

OutSkiing said:


> We finally received an email this week from a ‘Sales Experience Specialist’ saying she has an average of 70 cases at a time so she asked for 3 dates when we could do a conference call to discuss. We gave 3 dates, one has passed and nothing scheduled yet.


The person that responded to me was Dana and was identified as an Owner Correspondence & Social Media Response Specialist.  I also was asked for 3 dates.  He called on one of those dates toward the end of the day.  I was not advised in advance of when he was going to call.  I say this so you answer calls that you may not recognize the number as it may be your specialist.  I stated my case verbally and with hand written documentation by the sales person.  I had nothing written into the contract so I was advised by email that I would be downgraded.


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## WManning (Aug 14, 2022)

ddc said:


> The person that responded to me was Dana and was identified as an Owner Correspondence & Social Media Response Specialist.  I also was asked for 3 dates.  He called on one of those dates toward the end of the day.  I was not advised in advance of when he was going to call.  I say this so you answer calls that you may not recognize the number as it may be your specialist.  I stated my case verbally and with hand written documentation by the sales person.  I had nothing written into the contract so I was advised by email that I would be downgraded.


Sorry to hear you were down graded and did not have the specific language written into contract. Unfortunately the sales team has been known to lie and use deception to seal a deal! The additional points that will be deposited more then likely will not makeup for the downgrade.  The additional funds it cost to be no better off then before the purchase has to be a bitter pill to swallow. Especially  knowing you have no other option then to accept Wyndhams decision on what they feel is fair.


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## Arando001 (Aug 19, 2022)

I was recently "un-grandfathered" and was not told about it. I logged on to make a reservation and noticed my VIP status was down graded. Called Wyndham and was told "VIP status is not guaranteed" so the word "grandfathered" means nothing to Wyndham. I am looking for my paperwork for my contract which I remember stating that my VIP status is grandfathered as long as I remain the owner. That sales pitch was the reason I bought into the sale. Let me know if there are any legal action on this. I like to know. This move is unjust, dishonest and pure criminal by Wyndham management.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 19, 2022)

John Chase, how I miss you, and may you rest in peace.  This was his post.  

@Arando001, how did you become VIP and what did you buy and what were you promised?  I think more information would be helpful.


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## Ty1on (Aug 19, 2022)

Arando001 said:


> I was recently "un-grandfathered" and was not told about it. I logged on to make a reservation and noticed my VIP status was down graded. Called Wyndham and was told "VIP status is not guaranteed" so the word "grandfathered" means nothing to Wyndham. I am looking for my paperwork for my contract which I remember stating that my VIP status is grandfathered as long as I remain the owner. That sales pitch was the reason I bought into the sale. Let me know if there are any legal action on this. I like to know. This move is unjust, dishonest and pure criminal by Wyndham management.



For many years, Wyndham has conferred VIP status based on total contract points for members with biennials, despite the published policy that VIP is awarded based on annualized points.  It isn't that you were un-grandfathered, you are still grandfathered to the VIP level your total average annual points warrant, it's that they are now enforcing that longstanding rule, I'd guess because they have the ability to do it with their new system where they couldn't with the old.


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## Sandy VDH (Aug 19, 2022)

Not to mention that this post is from 2007, wow a 15 year old post.


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## Eric B (Aug 19, 2022)

@HitchHiker71, it might be worth editing the title of this thread to indicate it’s from 2007 and may not reflect the current VIP changes with Wyndham.


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## CO skier (Aug 19, 2022)

Arando001 said:


> I was recently "un-grandfathered" and was not told about it. I logged on to make a reservation and noticed my VIP status was down graded. Called Wyndham and was told "VIP status is not guaranteed" so the word "grandfathered" means nothing to Wyndham. I am looking for my paperwork for my contract which I remember stating that my VIP status is grandfathered as long as I remain the owner. That sales pitch was the reason I bought into the sale. Let me know if there are any legal action on this. I like to know. This move is unjust, dishonest and pure criminal by Wyndham management.


By "un-grandfathered" do you mean you received an email or letter similar to the following?



OutSkiing said:


> We received this email Thursday informing us our VIP level will be downgraded in August because biennial agreements will be counted at half value towards VIP while they were formerly counted as if full annual. Did anyone else get this? We were told at the time we went founders in 2021 we would be grandfathered founders so this seems like Wyndham is going back on a promise. Need to check that paperwork when we get home in late July.











						[MERGED] VIP Downgrade letter
					

While it doesn't matter to me, as I have made it a goal to purposely avoid the VIP nonsense, I have heard from a fellow owner that Wyndham has sent out letters stating that VIP status will be rescinded if your points were purchased resale. His reading of the letter says they are retroactively...




					tugbbs.com
				




If so, may I suggest that moderators merge the post with that current thread, instead of something from 15 years ago?


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## CO skier (Aug 19, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> Not to mention that this post is from 2007, wow a 15 year old post.


How does one even find a TUG thread from 15 years ago?  I thought I have been around here for a long time, but that is years before my time on TUG.


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## CO skier (Aug 19, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> John Chase, how I miss you, and may you rest in peace.  This was his post.


15 years later, his post #1 is still confusing.  Resale points have never counted toward VIP tiers, so what does "VIP status will be rescinded if your points were purchased resale" actually mean?  As anyone on the Wyndham forum knows, resale points qualified for VIP discounts up until recently.  And resale Pahio and El Cid contracts qualified (apparently) as VIP for years after 2007.

No wonder the original post got no substantive replies as it seemed to be just baloney.


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## paxsarah (Aug 19, 2022)

Ty1on said:


> For many years, Wyndham has conferred VIP status based on total contract points for members with biennials, despite the published policy that VIP is awarded based on annualized points.  It isn't that you were un-grandfathered, you are still grandfathered to the VIP level your total average annual points warrant, it's that they are now enforcing that longstanding rule, I'd guess because they have the ability to do it with their new system where they couldn't with the old.


In fact, the current directory (and I believe some of the other ones) has language about grandfathering (officially called "legacy VIP," kudos for Wyndham for trying to move to a more modern term but I'm pretty sure it's not going to take). That language speaks specifically about differences in points levels and benefits offered, but says nothing about the particular issue of biennial converted fixed week contracts essentially counting double toward VIP. So while this was an exception that Wyndham has allowed to go on for quite a while, it doesn't actually fall under Wyndham's grandfathering policy. They can make that change. (And actually, even if it did, Wyndham could still make that change as discussed ad nauseum in the past.) The most pertinent part of that policy for these owners is where it says that a legacy VIP who reduces the number of points in their contract and falls below their original VIP threshold, will have a VIP level based on the date that they're grandfathered from (and not the current levels). That's a pretty good deal, actually, even though it probably doesn't feel like it. So unless it's written specifically into an individual contract (in which case, fight hard for it to be recognized), there's no written basis for considering the fixed-week biennial issue a part of Wyndham's grandfathering policy.


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## Eric B (Aug 19, 2022)

I was not a Wyndham owner in the old days, or whatever the predecessor name was, but seem to recall having read somewhere that resale points used to count towards VIP tier status long ago.  I'm sure there are some that could chime in about whether or not that's correct.  That would be of interest from a historical perspective, of course.


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## Sandi Bo (Aug 19, 2022)

Eric B said:


> I was not a Wyndham owner in the old days, or whatever the predecessor name was, but seem to recall having read somewhere that resale points used to count towards VIP tier status long ago.  I'm sure there are some that could chime in about whether or not that's correct.  That would be of interest from a historical perspective, of course.


I think it is in Wyndham's best interest that history be forgotten.  I often think that is part of the motivation of getting rid of long-term owners. The less educated, the better. The less history is known, the better.

Somewhere along this timeline they came dangerously close to going bankrupt, right?  I remember when I first got involved, thinking, whoa, Dad almost lost everything he'd put into this.  I don't know details, because my Dad had all developer, all bought full boat from Wyndham (a salesperson's dream). But seems there was a lot of loosey goosey resale stuff getting counted towards VIP, some in error, some promised by sales. I believe there was a time they would include resale in an equity trade. And it hasn't been that long that corporate shut that down. When did they have their first online system? You used to have to call in (right at 7am or whenever they opened for ARP stuff). Cancelled points were dirty, etc, etc.  A lot of history... and deception.

Amazing it's taken them this long (and they continue) to lock down / define benefits with a reliable system to support them. Meanwhile...sales hasn't missed any opportunities to sell these features that weren't contractually solid. And that is why I hold Wyndham accountable - their sales bears much responsibility for the situations that continue to evolve. Starting with enticing vacationers to a much needed owner update, promise no sales, and their off... 

"'Will you walk into my parlour?' said the Spider to the Fly."


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## WManning (Aug 19, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> In fact, the current directory (and I believe some of the other ones) has language about grandfathering (officially called "legacy VIP," kudos for Wyndham for trying to move to a more modern term but I'm pretty sure it's not going to take). That language speaks specifically about differences in points levels and benefits offered, but says nothing about the particular issue of biennial converted fixed week contracts essentially counting double toward VIP. So while this was an exception that Wyndham has allowed to go on for quite a while, it doesn't actually fall under Wyndham's grandfathering policy. They can make that change. (And actually, even if it did, Wyndham could still make that change as discussed ad nauseum in the past.) The most pertinent part of that policy for these owners is where it says that a legacy VIP who reduces the number of points in their contract and falls below their original VIP threshold, will have a VIP level based on the date that they're grandfathered from (and not the current levels). That's a pretty good deal, actually, even though it probably doesn't feel like it. So unless it's written specifically into an individual contract (in which case, fight hard for it to be recognized), there's no written basis for considering the fixed-week biennial issue a part of Wyndham's grandfathering policy.


But if you speed to work everyday and don't get a ticket for 15 years does it make it legal? Better yet if people complain about the speeders are the people that complain wrong?


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## Eric B (Aug 19, 2022)

WManning said:


> But if you speed to work everyday and don't get a ticket for 15 years does it make it legal? Better yet if people complain about the speeders are the people that complain wrong?



Considerably off the point, but it really depends on what you mean by being legal.  Minor traffic offenses aren't crimes in general in most States but are instead considered civil infractions.  Civil infractions are what they are - whether or not someone believes committing a civil infraction is illegal is probably best left as a personal decision.

As for whether complaining about someone's driving (or posts on TUG for that matter) is wrong, I don't think there is really much of a chance of that.  Complaints are merely expressions of opinion - you can disagree with someone's opinions and just have an honest disagreement without anyone being "wrong" (unless they're my opinions you disagree with, of course).  I suppose it all boils down to needing to come to a mutual agreement about what you mean by "wrong" in that context, though, and who you are accepting as the arbiter of what is wrong.

But we digress from the actual topic of this thread... not that there's anything "wrong" with doing that.


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## chapjim (Aug 19, 2022)

WManning said:


> But if you speed to work everyday and don't get a ticket for 15 years does it make it legal? Better yet if people complain about the speeders are the people that complain wrong?



I have re-read @paxsarah's post several times and I'm having a hard time figuring out what this post has to do with hers.  Maybe I'm just especially dense this morning.

Edit:  Never mind that statutes that define speeding are generally better written than Wyndham's policies about most anything.


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## Eric B (Aug 19, 2022)

On an interesting note, in Maryland the speed monitoring cameras can't be used to cite someone for an infraction unless they are going more than 10 miles per hour over the speed limit.  That further complicates the question raised by @WManning about speeding - I drive past several speed monitoring cameras on my way to and from work and make it a point to be sure I'm going less than 9 miles per hour over the speed limit near them so that I don't get cited for an infraction.  If I travel less than or equal to the speed limit other folks pass me.  My bottom line take away is that society as a whole, acting through the legislators that enacted the laws governing using speed cameras and demonstrating through the behaviors of the vast majority of drivers on the road, does not believe that traveling at a reasonable rate over the speed limit is illegal and actually believes that its wrong to drive lower than the speed limit.


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## bnoble (Aug 19, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> unless it's written specifically into an individual contract


All of the contracts I've seen do not specifically quote an achieved VIP level, and they aren't even crystal clear that any particular points do qualify, though there is some clarity about points that don't--those that are resold to an unrelated party. Instead, the contract includes by reference the definition of VIP qualification from elsewhere, together with a statement that the definition can unilaterally change in the future.

If I'm right about that, anything in writing that would be actionable to preserve e.g. a specific VIP level with a specific purchase would probably need to have used a contract modified from the standard one. I'm betting most sales agents would not or possibly even cannot do that.

Wyndham probably would not just unilaterally disqualify all previous qualified purchasers for funsies. But, they definitely _will_ disqualify purchases that they believe aren't consistent with the basic idea of the program, namely: You buy points from them, and they give you shiny things. That will be especially true if it is a disqualification that would not apply to "most" owners, because the reputational risk of lost future sales is low. EOY PICs are definitely in that category, as are hybrid accounts.


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## bnoble (Aug 19, 2022)

Arando001 said:


> I was recently "un-grandfathered" and was not told about it.


It might help if we knew what your previous VIP status was and how you obtained it. Did you have any PIC weeks as part of it, and were they every-other-year?


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 19, 2022)

bnoble said:


> All of the contracts I've seen do not specifically quote an achieved VIP level, and they aren't even crystal clear that any particular points do qualify, though there is some clarity about points that don't--those that are resold to an unrelated party. Instead, the contract includes by reference the definition of VIP qualification from elsewhere, together with a statement that them definition can unilaterally change in the future.
> 
> If I'm right about that, anything in writing that would be actionable to preserve e.g. a specific VIP level with a specific purchase would probably need to have used a contract modified from the standard one. I'm betting most sales agents would not or possibly even cannot do that.
> 
> Wyndham probably would not just unilaterally disqualify all previous qualified purchasers for funsies. But, they definitely _will_ disqualify purchases that they believe aren't consistent with the basic idea of the program, namely: You buy points from them, and they give you shiny things. That will be especially true if it is a disqualification that would not apply to "most" owners, because the reputational risk of lost future sales is low. EOY PICs are definitely in that category, as are hybrid accounts.



IME given the fact that the entire VIP program in the contracts is subject to change solely at Wyndham's discretion - without prior notice - well, much of what is outlined with regard to any membership level or legal entitlement in this thread really is moot.  Granted, in the name of delivering a good customer experience, the recent change that negatively impacts a small subset of VIP owners that has resulted in VIP program downgrades stinks, but legally, Wyndham is within their right to make changes to their VIP program, up to and including termination of the entire program, at any time and pretty much for any reason.

For years now some folks received twice the credit for VIP eligibility than they should have.  That was a good perk while it lasted, but for that subset of owners - Wyndham is finally rightsizing their ownership.  Again, it's really disappointing, but on some level, these owners had to know that they were getting a VIP level and associated benefits that, even according to the 2010 member directory, they weren't entitled to actually receive according to the rules in place as far back as 2010 (and likely further back than that even).


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## paxsarah (Aug 19, 2022)

bnoble said:


> If I'm right about that, anything in writing that would be actionable to preserve e.g. a specific VIP level with a specific purchase would probably need to have used a contract modified from the standard one. I'm betting most sales agents would not or possibly even cannot do that.


I'm not saying it's common, but for at least one different but unique situation it's been done before.


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## bnoble (Aug 19, 2022)

I don’t doubt it’s happened a few times. There may even be a few of the double-counted-PIC people who have something in writing added to the standard form contract. But I am willing to bet that most do not.

As an addendum, I also won’t be surprised if sales agents have their hands tied about making such written modifications going forward. I know I wouldn’t want to leave contract language to someone who stands to make a commission by weakening the agreement I believe I am making.


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 19, 2022)

bnoble said:


> I don’t doubt it’s happened a few times. There may even be a few of the double-counted-PIC people who have something in writing added to the standard form contract. But I am willing to bet that most do not.
> 
> As an addendum, I also won’t be surprised if sales agents have their hands tied about making such written modifications going forward. I know I wouldn’t want to leave contract language to someone who stands to make a commission by weakening the agreement I believe I am making.



Definitely the exception as opposed to the rule.  I've seen several owners who have claimed their contract had an explicit VIP entitlement written into their contract, and upon further due diligence, those owners came to find out that this wasn't actually the case.  

Even if a sales rep at a local resort can write something like this into a contract - there's a corporate Wyndham audit process that will oftentimes catch these customizations and the contract itself has verbiage included that allows Wyndham corporate to reject the customizations via line item veto when necessary - or to reject the entire contract if the customizations are deemed unacceptable by corporate.  I'm not sure how long this audit process has been in place within Wyndham.  I'm familiar with this audit process as telesales cannot make any such changes when making deals - as everything is audited and recorded when dealing with telesales as compared to the local resort sales teams.  My only developer purchase was made through telesales back in 2018.


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## RENTER (Aug 20, 2022)

Arando001 said:


> I was recently "un-grandfathered" and was not told about it. I logged on to make a reservation and noticed my VIP status was down graded. Called Wyndham and was told "VIP status is not guaranteed" so the word "grandfathered" means nothing to Wyndham. I am looking for my paperwork for my contract which I remember stating that my VIP status is grandfathered as long as I remain the owner. That sales pitch was the reason I bought into the sale. Let me know if there are any legal action on this. I like to know. This move is unjust, dishonest and pure criminal by Wyndham management.


Contact Gary Schafkopf at 267 307 1123. He is filing a class action lawsuit for owners.


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## Ty1on (Aug 20, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Contact Gary Schafkopf at 267 307 1123. He is filing a class action lawsuit for owners.


Class action lawsuits:  the timeshare of jurisprudence.


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## OutSkiing (Aug 20, 2022)

ddc said:


> I did receive a call and emails from my specialist.   Unfortunately, I do not have anything in writing.  Only that I made a significant investment of 125k developer points to become platinum.  Points I didn't really need because if I wanted points, I would have bought resale.  I was buying the promise that platinum status would never be taken away.  He reviewed the documents I sent and replied that when the system upgrade happened, that I would become Gold status.  He advised that there would be a deposit of points to my account to compensate for the change in status and they would be deposited toward the end of the month of August for use in 2023.  I was not advised the amount of points I would receive.  Today I noticed that my account is no longer platinum and has been downgraded to gold.


Well when we got home from traveling to look at the wording in our 2021 purchase that made us Founders, it turns out there was nothing written in. That was a lesson on miss-remembering. We had asked for the “grandfather” wording but after hours in the sales office on the normal paperwork matters we apparently let it go with just their verbal so we could get back on vacation.

This week our assigned specialist said nobody at Wyndham knew this would happen so sales could not be accused of missleading us. We’re supposted to get one time bonus points of half the value of the affected points in late August (half of the decreased points she thinks). We were downgraded to Platinum this week even before the scheduled call.

Looking for any positives .. we would have been downgraded from Platinum to Gold had we not made that incremental purchase so at least we are still at the Platinum level now. Due to the weird merge with old thread I should add that this was about the Summer of 2022 downgrade of biannual points event.

Bob


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## lost patience (Aug 20, 2022)

It sounds like "specialists" are not able to do anything other than repeat what is in the letter.    I'm still waiting for my return call from days and days and days ago (although in the header message said they would call within 24 hours).   While I'm very frustrating with Wyndham changing the rules, I'm even more frustrated with their lack of support.    They provide a contact number that is non responsive.  And, for those that they have replied to, the answer is "the decision is final", there are not any options.  
I've had a ticket open for a year.  The number of Guest certificates is wrong in my account as well as the number of developer points.    They did complete an audit and agreed. ( I think that audit took about 4 months)  They manually corrected points for 2021, 2022.   They manually corrected guest certificates for 2021.   My guest certs for 2022 are wrong.  I've been assigned a specialist that is non responsive.     I received in email in Feb and in May stating their internal partners are actively working to fix my account.   I call about every 6 weeks and am told their is nothing else they can do.  Today they said IT is busy working the new website they just rolled out and not individual owner issues.   paymentus implementation that was done so poorly.    @HitchHiker71 you may be spot on.   You recently said something about pushing old owners out.  There may well be some truth to that thought.   Make us so unhappy with out membership, that we decide to dump Wyndham and move on with our lives.


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## RENTER (Aug 20, 2022)

lost patience said:


> It sounds like "specialists" are not able to do anything other than repeat what is in the letter.    I'm still waiting for my return call from days and days and days ago (although in the header message said they would call within 24 hours).   While I'm very frustrating with Wyndham changing the rules, I'm even more frustrated with their lack of support.    They provide a contact number that is non responsive.  And, for those that they have replied to, the answer is "the decision is final", there are not any options.
> I've had a ticket open for a year.  The number of Guest certificates is wrong in my account as well as the number of developer points.    They did complete an audit and agreed. ( I think that audit took about 4 months)  They manually corrected points for 2021, 2022.   They manually corrected guest certificates for 2021.   My guest certs for 2022 are wrong.  I've been assigned a specialist that is non responsive.     I received in email in Feb and in May stating their internal partners are actively working to fix my account.   I call about every 6 weeks and am told their is nothing else they can do.  Today they said IT is busy working the new website they just rolled out and not individual owner issues.   paymentus implementation that was done so poorly.    @HitchHiker71 you may be spot on.   You recently said something about pushing old owners out.  There may well be some truth to that thought.   Make us so unhappy with out membership, that we decide to dump Wyndham and move on with our lives.


If we find out that it is about pushing old owners out, then maybe you should consider contacting that lawyer whose number I posted and consider joining the class action lawsuit


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## CO skier (Aug 21, 2022)

RENTER said:


> If we find out that it is about pushing old owners out, then maybe you should consider contacting that lawyer whose number I posted and consider joining the class action lawsuit


There is a trash heap of individual and class action lawsuits against Wyndham since the changes in 2008, and probably before.

What makes this one any different?

Here is a recent class action lawsuit against Wyndham that is particularly embarrasing for the plaintiff attorneys.  The judge just flat out dismissed the case.  Who paid the attorney fees?  Were the plaintiffs conned twice?  First to buy their timeshares and secondly by "class action attorneys" seeking billable hours from sucker clients.  Ty1on in post #145 has got it right.






						Kirchner v. Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc., Civil Action No. 20-436-CFC | Casetext Search + Citator
					

Read Kirchner v. Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc., Civil Action No. 20-436-CFC, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database



					casetext.com


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 21, 2022)

lost patience said:


> @HitchHiker71 you may be spot on. You recently said something about pushing old owners out. There may well be some truth to that thought. Make us so unhappy with out membership, that we decide to dump Wyndham and move on with our lives.



To be clear - I have never made any such observation with regard to Wyndham policy. @Sandi Bo in post #133 specific to this thread - referenced something similar with respect to forgetting history as it relates to owners. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lost patience (Aug 21, 2022)

My apologies.     It is Sandi Bo's thought I was referring to.


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## Sandi Bo (Aug 22, 2022)

lost patience said:


> My apologies.     It is Sandi Bo's thought I was referring to.


This is kind of a wonky thread to follow anyways, IMHO. Starting around post #123 by @Arando001  I believe a 15 year old post where John Chase was commenting on resale points no longer counting towards VIP.  That would make @rickandcindy23's comment in post #124 more meaningful. That thread was partially merged into this thread.

Seems Wyndham has been tweaking rules and/or code for quite some time 

 Perhaps a link to it in the thread that was partially merged would be helpful in terms of context of other remarks- is that available @hitchhiker ?


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## RENTER (Aug 28, 2022)

CO skier said:


> There is a trash heap of individual and class action lawsuits against Wyndham since the changes in 2008, and probably before.
> 
> What makes this one any different?
> 
> ...


this class action lawsuit works on contingency plan. The attorney takes all financial risks. Only thing the owners have to pay is their time to be available for legal procedures.


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## Jan M. (Aug 28, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Only thing the owners have to pay is their time to be available for legal procedures.



Unless this class action lawsuit is different than others that isn't correct. Win or lose participants pay for certain expenses. Over the course of the several years class action lawsuits take those expenses add up. Likely to more than you or most people would think. They would be shared by the participants so if there's a lot of participants that would be better than if there's fewer. If you ask one of the attorneys involved they should explain this to you.


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## RENTER (Aug 28, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> Unless this class action lawsuit is different than others that isn't correct. Win or lose participants pay for certain expenses. Over the course of the several years class action lawsuits take those expenses add up. Likely to more than you or most people would think. They would be shared by the participants so if there's a lot of participants that would be better than if there's fewer. If you ask one of the attorneys involved they should explain this to you.


the agreement I signed says I will have no out of pocket expenses. Only that I be available for legal proceedings, and they will pick up the cost if it requires travel. Also win or lose, Wyndham will pay a price for what they did.  It will be a part of the public record and others will be warned of how they treat their owners before they buy. With a slowing economy the number of potential buyers dwindle. With the knowledge of what Wyndham did to the owners those numbers dwindle even more. Also, any potential investor may think twice about investing in this company who steps on those who had recommended renting and buying VIP and are applauded by those who do not recommend buying VIP.  The anti-VIP group is right. Anyone including Wyndham who thinks people can afford VIP without renting is crazy.  They have already paid a cost with me. I no longer buy points from them and no longer recommend them to anyone. The lawsuit is for denial of points.


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## RENTER (Aug 28, 2022)

Again if anyone is interested in joining this class action lawsuit for denial of use of points, contact Attorney Gary Schafkopf at 267-307-1123. Do not let these people telling you about the cost scare you off. I wonder who among them works for Wyndham.  He will send you an agreement and it clearly states that there is no cost to you. That he will recover the cost when a settlement is reached. No big deal for me. I did not join to make money for damages. I just want to be let out of my contract or allowed to use my points when and how I want.


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 28, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Again if anyone is interested in joining this class action lawsuit for denial of use of points, contact Attorney Gary Schafkopf at 267-307-1123. Do not let these people telling you about the cost scare you off. I wonder who among them works for Wyndham. He will send you an agreement and it clearly states that there is no cost to you. That he will recover the cost when a settlement is reached. No big deal for me. I did not join to make money for damages. I just want to be let out of my contract or allowed to use my points when and how I want.



A bit of general advice regarding joining a class action suit. If you lose a class-action lawsuit, you will not receive any compensation for the injuries that you have suffered. As a general rule, if you are part of an unsuccessful class action lawsuit, you won't have to pay any lawyer's fees, unless the judge explicitly rules otherwise and this is a rare circumstance. However, it's likely that you won't be able to join any other legal efforts involving the same issue that the class action lawsuit was concerning, because you also surrender your right to sue the defendant individually. Therefore it’s crucial to think about whether you want to join a class-action lawsuit or opt out and pursue damages or other remedies individually.

Lastly, you will be explicitly named in the class action lawsuit if you choose to join. Keep in mind that Wyndham has clauses in their contracts that will allow them to consider you an adverse customer when violating Club rules persistently and they can take action to remove you from their timeshare exchange systems. Wyndham cannot necessarily reclaim your ownership - but deeded owners can be expelled from CWP after which you would only be able to use your points at the deeded property and no longer be able to use the online system for booking for example. This is all spelled out in the founding trust documents. While it is unlikely Wyndham would ever choose to do anything like this, it is possible.

Please do your homework before signing up for any class action lawsuit - it’s not always as harmless as some people are led to believe. To be clear, I’m not recommending any particular path forward, I’m simply saying do your homework and make sure you are aware of the potential pros and cons of your decision. 

Has this class action suit been certified yet? My bet is no, otherwise there would be an online website for the class action suit already, outlining the exact terms of the class action lawsuit. If I am incorrect, please post the link to the certified class action lawsuit for direct reference.

Personally I would never consider joining any class action lawsuit that hasn’t already been certified by a judge as legitimate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## paxsarah (Aug 28, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Also win or lose, Wyndham will pay a price for what they did. It will be a part of the public record and others will be warned of how they treat their owners before they buy.


How many lawsuits (class action or otherwise) against Wyndham have been dismissed or otherwise found against the plaintiffs? So the fact that those are all out there already and Wyndham hasn't "paid a price" - do you really think this lawsuit is somehow going to hit the public consciousness differently?

The only way others will be warned before they buy is if those people search for information about Wyndham before they buy. Regardless of whether there are any lawsuits that are part of the public record, the people searching will probably also find TUG, wyndhamexperts.org, or the various FB groups. It doesn't take a lawsuit (successful or failed) to provide that information, but it does take proactive effort by the potential buyer *before* they make a purchase. Did you find any of the previous failed (or the very few successful) lawsuits against Wyndham before you purchased? If you didn't, then why would any other potential buyer find this one?


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## bnoble (Aug 28, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> it does take proactive effort by the potential buyer *before* they make a purchase


Heck, it is even sufficient for them to do it during the rescission period. It doesn't matter, because they won't do it.

How many people find their way to TUG---after buying _any_ timeshare---and ask if they should rescind? Maybe one or two a week, tops. Usually not that many. And, it makes sense if you think about how timeshares are sold and why people buy them.

The most important bit is that timeshares are sold, not bought. That sounds odd to TUGgers, because we are a group of timeshare enthusiasts, and many of us own several of them. I own five weeks, and that's probably not in the upper quartile around here. We think about it, planning and analyzing what to buy, how much to pay, and how it will fit into our overall vacation portfolio. For us, buying is a very intentional process.

That's definitely _not_ how most people buy timeshares. Most people do so while they are on vacation, having the time of their lives, and a helpful sales agent explains how they can bottle this magical feeling and recreate it year after year for very affordable monthly payments. Not only that, but they can do so in luxury condos rather than hotel rooms! For most buyers, this is an aspirational purchase. It's a way to vacation more frequently and in nicer accommodations. It's an investment, but not in a financial sense; it's an investment in family time and togetherness. So, most buyers _feel good about their purchase_. They are not going to go out of their way to look for reasons why it was a bad idea, and they _certainly_ won't do that in the first two weeks. Some folks start looking a few months or a few years later, but even they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. ARDA consistently finds that most owners are happy with their purchase. Obviously they have a thumb on the survey scales, so the exact fraction doesn't mean much, but the overall message tracks with what you hear around the resort pool. Heck, even TUGgers (who know how the sausage is made) are split on whether or not they regret their retail purchase(s), and some continue to make them.

I suppose some people find TUG and decide to rescind after reading what they find without asking a question. But even if it is a factor of 10-20 more than the people who ask, it's still a drop in the bucket of overall sales. When I joined TUG 15 years ago, everyone was convinced that the presence of TUG and other similar resources, freely available on the Internet, would mean the end of the developer sales model. 

No such thing has happened, it is not going to, and more information on the internet is not going to change that.


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## paxsarah (Aug 28, 2022)

bnoble said:


> When I joined TUG 15 years ago, everyone was convinced that the presence of TUG and other similar resources, freely available on the Internet, would mean the end of the developer sales model.
> 
> No such thing has happened, it is not going to, and more information on the internet is not going to change that.


It's one of the silliest arguments I see on the FB groups (typically either from a salesperson or a true believer) when people suggest rescission to someone who's clearly ambivalent about their recent retail purchase - "But if you convince everyone to buy resale, there won't be any more retail contracts that can later become resales!" Trust me, dude, I've been involved in these communities for over a decade now and we're barely influencing a tiny fraction of owners. It's like the starfish story - there's no way we're going to help them all, but we can help one here or there.


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## chapjim (Aug 28, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> It's one of the silliest arguments I see on the FB groups (typically either from a salesperson or a true believer) when people suggest rescission to someone who's clearly ambivalent about their recent retail purchase - "But if you convince everyone to buy resale, there won't be any more retail contracts that can later become resales!" Trust me, dude, I've been involved in these communities for over a decade now and we're barely influencing a tiny fraction of owners. It's like the starfish story - there's no way we're going to help them all, but we can help one here or there.



Another insightful, succinct, and pithy post from @paxsarah.


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## RENTER (Aug 28, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> A bit of general advice regarding joining a class action suit. If you lose a class-action lawsuit, you will not receive any compensation for the injuries that you have suffered. As a general rule, if you are part of an unsuccessful class action lawsuit, you won't have to pay any lawyer's fees, unless the judge explicitly rules otherwise and this is a rare circumstance. However, it's likely that you won't be able to join any other legal efforts involving the same issue that the class action lawsuit was concerning, because you also surrender your right to sue the defendant individually. Therefore it’s crucial to think about whether you want to join a class-action lawsuit or opt out and pursue damages or other remedies individually.
> 
> Lastly, you will be explicitly named in the class action lawsuit if you choose to join. Keep in mind that Wyndham has clauses in their contracts that will allow them to consider you an adverse customer when violating Club rules persistently and they can take action to remove you from their timeshare exchange systems. Wyndham cannot necessarily reclaim your ownership - but deeded owners can be expelled from CWP after which you would only be able to use your points at the deeded property and no longer be able to use the online system for booking for example. This is all spelled out in the founding trust documents. While it is unlikely Wyndham would ever choose to do anything like this, it is possible.
> 
> ...


You are 100% correct and this has been spelled out to us. I and others do not seek money damages. We want to be allowed to use our points as we desire or allowed to be out of our contracts. So, we have no problem giving up our rights to sue as individuals. Uniting together makes us stronger rather then divide and conquer with individual lawsuits that may end up with a settlement with a non disclosure agreement. As for being an adverse customer with restrictions, will have little effect on me personally.


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## RENTER (Aug 28, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> How many lawsuits (class action or otherwise) against Wyndham have been dismissed or otherwise found against the plaintiffs? So the fact that those are all out there already and Wyndham hasn't "paid a price" - do you really think this lawsuit is somehow going to hit the public consciousness differently?
> 
> The only way others will be warned before they buy is if those people search for information about Wyndham before they buy. Regardless of whether there are any lawsuits that are part of the public record, the people searching will probably also find TUG, wyndhamexperts.org, or the various FB groups. It doesn't take a lawsuit (successful or failed) to provide that information, but it does take proactive effort by the potential buyer *before* they make a purchase. Did you find any of the previous failed (or the very few successful) lawsuits against Wyndham before you purchased? If you didn't, then why would any other potential buyer find this one?


They have not paid a price. How many people did those lawsuits scare off?  Most people do not know about Tug or the groups you talk about. So, finding lawsuits gives them another option to be informed. Also, those cases Wyndham won pale against this case where you cannot rent on your own, but you can with Extra Holidays if you pay them their 40% commission. If you see no problem with that then hopefully you and people who think like you will not be on the jury. By the way I would take someone more serious about their complaints if file a lawsuit over someone who may just be whining because they complain about everything.


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## paxsarah (Aug 29, 2022)

RENTER said:


> We want to be allowed to use our points as we desire* or allowed to be out of our contracts*.


I thought you paid off your loan already - so surely Certified Exit is an option. That would make the case moot for you personally, wouldn't it?


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## RENTER (Aug 29, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> I thought you paid off your loan already - so surely Certified Exit is an option. That would make the case moot for you personally, wouldn't it?


Nah I rather go the lawsuit way and expose Wyndham to the world. Plus, I like to stay if Wyndham changes their way. You reminded me of something when you said that people could find negative information about Wyndham here on Tug, or Facebook or other online sites rather than thru a lawsuit. That reminded me that I believe that Wyndham should be charged with ELDER ABUSE.  Senior citizens I help have no idea what you were talking about never mind have a laptop or smart phone. They were not competent enough to understand what the sales agent was telling them. Recently I was asked to help a disabled senior citizen. He did not understand what I was telling him. He kept apologizing for being dumb. I told him he was not. Seniors do not understand what I was saying so it was not just him. I had him contact his granddaughter and I was explaining to her how the system works. I taught her how to set up the online account for him and how to make reservations. I also taught her how to rent for him because he cannot afford this. He should have never been sold it. So, Wyndham if they were smart would stop selling to senior citizens and team up with guys like me, the short-term rental sites and allow us to rent and ask towns and cities to exempt us from their short-term rental laws since we are already in a location zone for hotel occupancy. They were making a lot of money off me while I was breaking even but having fun.


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## CO skier (Aug 30, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Nah I rather go the lawsuit way and expose Wyndham to the world.


fyi - there have been lawsuits "exposing Wyndham to the world" since the changes to VIP benefits in 2008, and probably before.

As others have asked and to repeat, what makes this latest lawsuit any different?  Why should anyone care?


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## Jan M. (Aug 30, 2022)

RENTER said:


> That reminded me that I believe that Wyndham should be charged with ELDER ABUSE.



Sadly what you said about seniors being taken advantage of is all too true. Some of us remember a few years back when the whistleblower lawsuit by a former top saleswoman against Wyndham won in court. Among other things claimed in the lawsuit was that Wyndham salespeople were all too frequently guilty of elder abuse and Wyndham turned a blind eye to it if not indirectly encouraging it. I really thought that after losing the lawsuit and receiving so much negative publicity in regards to seniors being taken advantage of that things would change with the salespeople taking advantage of seniors. I don't think it even slowed them down temporarily.

Does anyone know if that woman ever got any of the money the court awarded her or if Wyndham has it tied up in appeals?


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## RENTER (Aug 30, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> Sadly what you said about seniors being taken advantage of is all too true. Some of us remember a few years back when the whistleblower lawsuit by a former top saleswoman against Wyndham won in court. Among other things claimed in the lawsuit was that Wyndham salespeople were all too frequently guilty of elder abuse and Wyndham turned a blind eye to it if not indirectly encouraging it. I really thought that after losing the lawsuit and receiving so much negative publicity in regards to seniors being taken advantage of that things would change with the salespeople taking advantage of seniors. I don't think it even slowed them down temporarily.
> 
> Does anyone know if that woman ever got any of the money the court awarded her or if Wyndham has it tied up in appeals?


I don't know. But it is bad what I am seeing. When I help them rent, I get them $10 per 1000. When I explain that their maintenance fees are only $5.50 per 1000 and their profit is $4.50 per 1000 they cannot understand that. So how can they understand what they signed up for.


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## RENTER (Aug 30, 2022)

CO skier said:


> fyi - there have been lawsuits "exposing Wyndham to the world" since the changes to VIP benefits in 2008, and probably before.
> 
> As others have asked and to repeat, what makes this latest lawsuit any different?  Why should anyone care?


more information for others to stay away and for those who want to get out after having their reservations cancelled.


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## Jan M. (Aug 30, 2022)

RENTER said:


> their maintenance fees are only $5.50 per 1000



Your maintenance fees might only be $5.50 per thousand points but I'd estimate that puts you in the lowest 25%-30% of the overall ownership. Many people have varying amounts of CWA points. The CWA 2022 maintenance fees with the program fee are $7.61 per thousand if they have any developer points in their account and $7.59 if their account is entirely resale points.


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## paxsarah (Aug 30, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> Your maintenance fees might only be $5.50 per thousand points but I'd estimate that puts you in the lowest 25%-30% of the overall ownership. Many people ;have varying amounts of CWA points. The CWA 2022 maintenance fees with the program fee fare $7.61 per thousand if they have any developer points in their account and $7.59 if their account is entirely resale points.


Yes, it seems the old folks who don't know anything about their ownership got really lucky and bought one of the lowest MFs in the system.


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## Jan M. (Aug 30, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> Yes, it seems the old folks who don't know anything about their ownership got really lucky and bought one of the lowest MFs in the system.



On our Spring trip DH came back from his morning swim/work out at the pool and told me about a senior couple he'd talked to. He's learning more about what we own and how I use it so was pretty sure the purchase they'd just made wasn't in their best interests. He didn't mention rescinding and didn't say anything negative but since he was pretty sure they were still in the rescission period he told them they really should talk to me since I'm very knowledgeable. He told them about TUG too. He had them put my phone number in their phone.

He proceeded to tell me what they'd been convinced to give back in the equity trade, what they'd been sold and for how much. He asked is it bad or really bad? I told him it was really, really bad and it so was. They'd fallen for the spiel about how buying more points was going to save them money on maintenance fees, how it could pay for itself., blah, blah, blah. What they'd been conned into giving up had maintenance fees that were a little over $3 per thousand points lower than what they'd been convinced to buy. This senior couple were already Founders so would have already owned a minimum of 1.4M points. They just spent big bucks to raise their maintenance fees at least $4200 a year just on the same number of points they'd previously owned. That's without the additional points they'd been sold. When I explained that to DH he was as horrified as I was. Of course they never called.

From what we and other owners we know hear and overhear it seems like seniors who own at resorts with really low maintenance fees are a target for the salespeople.


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## RENTER (Aug 30, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> On our Spring trip DH came back from his morning swim/work out at the pool and told me about a senior couple he'd talked to. He's learning more about what we own and how I use it so was pretty sure the purchase they'd just made wasn't in their best interests. He didn't mention rescinding and didn't say anything negative but since he was pretty sure they were still in the rescission period he told them they really should talk to me since I'm very knowledgeable. He told them about TUG too. He had them put my phone number in their phone.
> 
> He proceeded to tell me what they'd been convinced to give back in the equity trade, what they'd been sold and for how much. He asked is it bad or really bad? I told him it was really, really bad and it so was. They'd fallen for the spiel about how buying more points was going to save them money on maintenance fees, how it could pay for itself., blah, blah, blah. What they'd been conned into giving up had maintenance fees that were a little over $3 per thousand points lower than what they'd been convinced to buy. This senior couple were already Founders so would have already owned a minimum of 1.4M points. They just spent big bucks to raise their maintenance fees at least $4200 a year just on the same number of points they'd previously owned. That's without the additional points they'd been sold. When I explained that to DH he was as horrified as I was. Of course they never called.
> 
> From what we and other owners we know hear and overhear it seems like seniors who own at resorts with really low maintenance fees are a target for the salespeople.


you are correct. I see that all the time.


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## RENTER (Aug 30, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> Your maintenance fees might only be $5.50 per thousand points but I'd estimate that puts you in the lowest 25%-30% of the overall ownership. Many people have varying amounts of CWA points. The CWA 2022 maintenance fees with the program fee are $7.61 per thousand if they have any developer points in their account and $7.59 if their account is entirely resale points.


you are correct. But renting at 10 per 1000 still gives them extra to apply to their loan


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## RENTER (Aug 30, 2022)

not all of them pay that low. I just used that as an example of some I am helping who are that low. Mainly because they sold out of access and bought NYC when it opened, and they had no clue what they were doing. Most are paying the access maintenance fees.  Since you seem to indicate that they know what they are doing that you work for Wyndham. They do not know what they were doing. They were convinced to buy each time they went to a presentation. Further proof of ELDER ABUSE is when I send them a check. They pay their loans and Maintenace fees.  The check for $10 per 1000 covers their maintenance fees and a little extra to help pay the loan.  Then they ask me why they have to pay the maintenance fees and loan if I covered it. Did I not pay for it?  Plus, I constantly have to go over with them how much each trip costs in Maintenace fees. They do not understand how I get to the calculation of how much their Maintenace fees are per 1000 then how much each reservation.  So, if I am correct and you do work for Wyndham, are you proud of how the company makes a sale off the back of senior citizens? But maybe that is the plan all along. Drive guys like me out and sell to senior citizens and the uninformed. Also, if I am nearby and I hear what is going on, and they insist on buying. I tell them what resort has the lowest Maintenace fees. 


paxsarah said:


> Yes, it seems the old folks who don't know anything about their ownership got really lucky and bought one of the lowest MFs in the system.


f


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## paxsarah (Aug 30, 2022)

RENTER said:


> So, if I am correct and you do work for Wyndham, are you proud of how the company makes a sale off the back of senior citizens?


Joe, should I be hurt that you don't remember all the discussions we had on Facebook before you got booted from all of those groups? I'm about as far from working for Wyndham as anyone can be. I've been telling you good luck with your lawsuit for the past year at least. So good luck with your lawsuit, again.


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## WManning (Aug 31, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> On our Spring trip DH came back from his morning swim/work out at the pool and told me about a senior couple he'd talked to. He's learning more about what we own and how I use it so was pretty sure the purchase they'd just made wasn't in their best interests. He didn't mention rescinding and didn't say anything negative but since he was pretty sure they were still in the rescission period he told them they really should talk to me since I'm very knowledgeable. He told them about TUG too. He had them put my phone number in their phone.
> 
> He proceeded to tell me what they'd been convinced to give back in the equity trade, what they'd been sold and for how much. He asked is it bad or really bad? I told him it was really, really bad and it so was. They'd fallen for the spiel about how buying more points was going to save them money on maintenance fees, how it could pay for itself., blah, blah, blah. What they'd been conned into giving up had maintenance fees that were a little over $3 per thousand points lower than what they'd been convinced to buy. This senior couple were already Founders so would have already owned a minimum of 1.4M points. They just spent big bucks to raise their maintenance fees at least $4200 a year just on the same number of points they'd previously owned. That's without the additional points they'd been sold. When I explained that to DH he was as horrified as I was. Of course they never called.
> 
> From what we and other owners we know hear and overhear it seems like seniors who own at resorts with really low maintenance fees are a target for the salespeople.


I feel sorry for seniors but also the young couples starting out that are duped into buying. It's hard to try to save them all no matter how much you try to help and tell them.


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## RENTER (Aug 31, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> Joe, should I be hurt that you don't remember all the discussions we had on Facebook before you got booted from all of those groups? I'm about as far from working for Wyndham as anyone can be. I've been telling you good luck with your lawsuit for the past year at least. So good luck with your lawsuit, again.


Sorry, you have the wrong person.  I have no clue who you are or had any discussions with you except for here.  But I think I know who you are talking about, and if he is the person, he is doing okay and has not suffered a bit despite warnings from other owners he would suffer for standing up to Wyndham. He was the one who taught many of us how to rent and how to stand up to Wyndham.  I listened to him and not Wyndham defenders like you and I refused to cancel my guest pass rentals. They all went thru, and I was able to pay off my loans with the $54,000 I made this year renting. I tried to post a picture of my earnings for this year, but the file was too big to upload. However, I did not listen to him with what to do with the money. I paid off my loans. He took his rental money and invested it in the stock market as it dropped and is using the dividends to pay off his loans. I am married, he is not. My wife is scared of the stock market, so I had to consider her feelings.


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## Jan M. (Aug 31, 2022)

WManning said:


> I feel sorry for seniors but also the young couples starting out that are duped into buying. It's hard to try to save them all no matter how much you try to help and tell them.



It's not always a case of being young or old and dumb or duped. Not everyone's situation is the same.

We weren't young, 51 and 53, when we first bought those 77k points in 2002. We would never, ever have thought we'd end up platinum six years later. Thanks to Bill Me Later with PayPal and credit cards with zero interest for 12-18 months and no transfer fees we paid as we went.

We have no regrets. Over the years I've made it my mission to make good enough use of the VIP benefits to justify buying developer. Not every VIP can or does make good use of their benefits.

Again I have to add that our work situations were unique and even before retirement we were able to use the timshares more than most people who are working can. DH's profession meant he was highly sought after so that's one worry we didn't have. He set his own work schedule and his large territory made it easy for us to combine his work with stays.


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## paxsarah (Aug 31, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Sorry, you have the wrong person.  I have no clue who you are or had any discussions with you except for here.  But I think I know who you are talking about, and if he is the person, he is doing okay and has not suffered a bit despite warnings from other owners he would suffer for standing up to Wyndham. He was the one who taught many of us how to rent and how to stand up to Wyndham.  I listened to him and not Wyndham defenders like you and I refused to cancel my guest pass rentals. They all went thru, and I was able to pay off my loans with the $54,000 I made this year renting. I tried to post a picture of my earnings for this year, but the file was too big to upload. However, I did not listen to him with what to do with the money. I paid off my loans. He took his rental money and invested it in the stock market as it dropped and is using the dividends to pay off his loans. I am married, he is not. My wife is scared of the stock market, so I had to consider her feelings.


My apologies if you're not Joe. You guys have a lot in common. What are the chances that you both had an independent plan to give your contracts to the Make a Wish Foundation [Edit: and an animal rescue!] once you were done with them?


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## MaryBella7 (Aug 31, 2022)

I’m in my 50s, and from the time I was a kid and my parents went to a sales presentation, I have known that the salespeople lie, people go to presentations to get free stuff, and that timeshares have always had a terrible reputation. This is not new news, and I can’t imagine one more lawsuit will finally expose them to all. They have been exposed for as long as I remember, but it still doesn’t prevent people from buying.
For the record, I love timeshare traveling as does my family. Many people are happy with it. But the reputation has been out there for as long as I can remember.


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## Cyrus24 (Aug 31, 2022)

RENTER said:


> I refused to cancel my guest pass rentals. They all went thru, and I was able to pay off my loans with the $54,000 I made this year renting.


That's a pretty good income off of a side hustle!!!  I'm glad I won't have your tax bill.  Of course, owing taxes, mean you had income.


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## paxsarah (Aug 31, 2022)

Cyrus24 said:


> That's a pretty good income off of a side hustle!!!  I'm glad I won't have your tax bill.  Of course, owing taxes, mean you had income.


I'm pretty sure that was gross, not net.


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## Cyrus24 (Aug 31, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> I'm pretty sure that was gross, not net.


I was referring to the 54K in profit (over the cost of MF's) that was used to pay off his loan.  That would be Net unless he could write off some portion of his original purchase price.  I'm not an accountant, but, the 54K sounded like net profit from rentals, to me.


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## RENTER (Aug 31, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> My apologies if you're not Joe. You guys have a lot in common. What are the chances that you both had an independent plan to give your contracts to the Make a Wish Foundation [Edit: and an animal rescue!] once you were done with them?


LMAO off. Keep trying. But you did do your homework and make excellent points. But I did not receive the letter, or had my reservations cancelled because I was stupid. Also, I do not have the time like you do argue both on FB and here. I am still on FB but don't waste my time there with other owners. Non-owners will not see what I post. there. But you are correct about him, they did censor him if we are talking about the same person.


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## RENTER (Aug 31, 2022)

Cyrus24 said:


> I was referring to the 54K in profit (over the cost of MF's) that was used to pay off his loan.  That would be Net unless he could write off some portion of his original purchase price.  I'm not an accountant, but, the 54K sounded like net profit from rentals, to me.


Gross and reported on schedule C showing no profits after I deduct my expenses. Next year it will be profits.


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## Cyrus24 (Aug 31, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Gross and reported on schedule C showing no profits after I deduct my expenses. Next year it will be profits.


Good thing I don't work for the IRS, I'd be checking your return.  It's the part about having enough profit to pay off the 54K loan that caught my eye.  Maybe I misinterpreted your statement.


RENTER said:


> I was able to pay off my loans with the $54,000 I made this year renting


OK, your loan was probably less than 54K.  Your rental income was 54K.  I hope you win the lawsuit and regain the full right to rent.  It irks me that Wyndham can call just about anything commercial renting.


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## RENTER (Aug 31, 2022)

Cyrus24 said:


> Good thing I don't work for the IRS, I'd be checking your return.  It's the part about having enough profit to pay off the 54K loan that caught my eye.  Maybe I misinterpreted your statement.
> 
> OK, your loan was probably less than 54K.  Your rental income was 54K.  I hope you win the lawsuit and regain the full right to rent.  It irks me that Wyndham can call just about anything commercial renting.


add in guest pass fees, points protection , what I paid other owners, what I have outstanding on the loan and what I paid for resales. The only one making money on this was Wyndham. But since the loans are paid off, future rentals would be profit. But I do not plan to rent. Just use the points and discounts for me, my family and friends which was the plan all along. Losing out is Wyndham since as the loans went down, I bought more points from them. Which is one reason I have very low Maintenace fees under $5.50. I picked the resorts I wanted to buy from. Could not guarantee getting low maintenance fees resorts on resells. Did not mind paying the loans because the rents covered it. But never again will I buy from them. Oh and buy the way, anyone who rents online receives a 1099 before people call us a tax cheat.


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## paxsarah (Sep 1, 2022)

RENTER said:


> LMAO off. Keep trying.


You have to admit, it's uncanny.





RENTER said:


> I guess I am one of those mega renters





RENTER said:


> I shared my discounts with other owners





RENTER said:


> I am tired of Wyndham changing the rules





RENTER said:


> Senior citizens I help have no idea what you were talking about never mind have a laptop or smart phone


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## scootr5 (Sep 1, 2022)

That is some amazing similarities in speech right there.


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## Ty1on (Sep 1, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Could not guarantee getting low maintenance fees resorts on resells.



Um, of course you can guarantee getting low maintenance fee resorts on resale.  The buyer chooses what resort , room type, etc, to pursue.  It's not like resale contracts are sold in blind bags.


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## paxsarah (Sep 1, 2022)

One doesn't buy resale National Harbor by accident.


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## RENTER (Sep 1, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> You have to admit, it's uncanny.
> View attachment 63933


LMAO off. What you say I said is 100% true. But we are different people. There is one piece of information that you are missing which would explain it. But I will not share it with you so Wyndham can discover who I am. They have not figured it out yet, so my reservations went thru, and I never received the letter. I don't care about me because my loans are paid off and I made my money back. But I do care for those seniors I am helping who are depending on me renting for them. Their reservations have gone thru, and they have not received the letter. A lot of people know who Joe is because he was very vocal on FB under his own name but very few know who I am, and I do not want Wyndham to know so they punish those seniors I am helping. If they spy hard enough, they may be able to figure it out. But if you do figure it out, that proves you work or have contacts with Wyndham because only Wyndham would have the info to put 2 and 2 together to figure out that one piece of information.


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## Ty1on (Sep 1, 2022)

RENTER said:


> LMAO off. What you say I said is 100% true. But we are different people. There is one piece of information that you are missing which would explain it. But I will not share it with you so Wyndham can discover who I am. They have not figured it out yet, so my reservations went thru, and I never received the letter. I don't care about me because my loans are paid off and I made my money back. But I do care for those seniors I am helping who are depending on me renting for them. Their reservations have gone thru, and they have not received the letter. A lot of people know who Joe is because he was very vocal on FB under his own name but very few know who I am, and I do not want Wyndham to know so they punish those seniors I am helping. If they spy hard enough, they may be able to figure it out. But if you do figure it out, that proves you work or have contacts with Wyndham because only Wyndham would have the info to put 2 and 2 together to figure out that one piece of information.



Maybe Wyndham needs only search call notes for "obnoxious member"


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## Eric B (Sep 2, 2022)

RENTER said:


> add in guest pass fees, points protection , what I paid other owners, what I have outstanding on the loan and what I paid for resales. The only one making money on this was Wyndham. But since the loans are paid off, future rentals would be profit. But I do not plan to rent. Just use the points and discounts for me, my family and friends which was the plan all along. Losing out is Wyndham since as the loans went down, I bought more points from them. Which is one reason I have very low Maintenace fees under $5.50. I picked the resorts I wanted to buy from. Could not guarantee getting low maintenance fees resorts on resells. Did not mind paying the loans because the rents covered it. But never again will I buy from them. Oh and buy the way, anyone who rents online receives a 1099 before people call us a tax cheat.



Loan amounts are more representative of capital costs and have to be deprecated.  You’re likely to not get audited and get away with it, though.  Interest on the loans could be a normal operating cost.


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## paxsarah (Sep 2, 2022)

There was a really interesting post in one of the FB groups by an owner who had been downgraded from grandfathered platinum to grandfathered gold and was mad about it, trying to figure out how to take some action against Wyndham while not realizing exactly how sweet the deal had been that she'd been benefiting from for over a decade. It's a little unique among the stories we've heard so far, so I thought I'd bring it to TUG for posterity (and maybe some musings on the salespeople's role in all this).

The initial post stated she had purchased in 2009 bringing in an annual PIC week, and that purchase made her platinum. She had been frustrated that for some reason, the annual PIC had been added to her account as two biennial PICs, and she contacted Wyndham several times through the years trying to get it fixed because she knew it was incorrect, to no avail. Then now she receives the letter indicating the VIP downgrade to gold based on the correction to accounting for biennial contracts. She's angry because her PIC is not even biennial, it's annual, and she's been trying to get it fixed all this time and couldn't, so how can her VIP level be downgraded because of the biennial issue?

So I asked her how many points she owns direct from Wyndham and how many bedrooms her PIC is. She answered 254,000 and it's a 3/2 fixed week that she actually continues to use each year (which is neither here nor there).

At first, because the 3BR PIC is also worth 254,000 points towards VIP, I assumed that's what she was saying and hadn't told me her number of owned points. But then I realized that she seemed to be actually answering my question - she owns 254,000 retail points through Wyndham, and also has this 3BR PIC week that she still uses every year and doesn't deposit.* So she was platinum for 13 years while actually owning 508k VIP-eligible points. Essentially, her PIC contract must have been _quadruple_-counted - because it was recorded as two biennial contracts in alternating years, each of which was double-counted.

She stated in her initial post that she was "helped" by a salesperson, but I don't think she realized exactly how much that salesperson actually helped her (based on her sincere frustration that Wyndham never corrected the error of her annual PIC week being shown as two biennials instead). This is obviously something that salesperson did very intentionally, and it actually looks like an example of "salesperson math" that actually completely came out in the owner's favor. (IMO the loser here was Wyndham.) I wonder how widespread this was back then. From the number of people who've been impacted by the recent downgrades, it certainly seemed to me that pre-2013 salespeople were aware of the biennial double-counting and worked to get owners extra credit towards VIP using actual biennial contracts. (And no doubt making it easier for them to make a sale and get commission for selling those contracts.) But this added a layer to that, by (questionably) taking an annual PIC week and falsely breaking it up as two biennial PICs. It's so brazen, it's kind of amazing! 

And again, this seems to have been entirely the salesperson. The owner presented as someone who had no idea how she really obtained her platinum level. Though it is also kind of amazing to me that she's owned for all these years and not realized how little she paid (or how far below the requirements she was) to get VIP platinum. Nor looked into the policies after receiving the downgrade letter before deciding to look for legal assistance to demand her platinum back. Never mind that if her PIC had been entered as annual, she would only ever have been gold (still a decent deal back then in retrospect).



* I asked once again for clarification and (not atypically for FB OPs) she hasn't been back to respond. I'll update if I get an update.


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## Sandi Bo (Sep 2, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> ....and not realized how little she paid


I doubt she paid little.  But in the scheme of things you are right. Overall it has always amazed me the wild and crazy price ranges, and ways, there were to become VIP.  Gotta love Wyndham math, or what they'll do to make a sale.


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## paxsarah (Sep 2, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> I doubt she paid little.  But in the scheme of things you are right. Overall it has always amazed me the wild and crazy price ranges, and ways, there were to become VIP.  Gotta love Wyndham math, or what they'll do to make a sale.


"Little" in the sense of compared to what any other Platinum VIP paid. Platinum is a tough leap that generally requires a hefty developer purchase, even with legit PICs, even back then (aside from the sporadic other loopholes from those olden days). Imagine if she had layered resale points on top of that (I actually don't know if she did or not). Sweet, sweet deal.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 2, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> "Little" in the sense of compared to what any other Platinum VIP paid. Platinum is a tough leap that generally requires a hefty developer purchase, even with legit PICs, even back then (aside from the sporadic other loopholes from those olden days). Imagine if she had layered resale points on top of that (I actually don't know if she did or not). Sweet, sweet deal.



Agreed, it is a tough leap. Since I already have two PICs and am VIPG, it'd likely cost me $120/1000 at the very minimum - assuming I could somehow get a foreclosure type deal - for 400k points (taking me from 718k developer to 1118k developer), that works out to 48k roughly.  I cannot justify the ROI however, so that will likely never happen unless I have money to burn at some point, and even then, I'm not sure it will ever happen.  This doesn't count the 26-27k I spent originally to get to VIPG with two PICs in 2018.


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## lost patience (Sep 5, 2022)

An update.   I called on Aug 11.   I received a reply by email yesterday, Sept 4.   The reply is a statement repeating the reasoning and nothing else.


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## Xcalibur (Sep 6, 2022)

WManning said:


> In a perfect world sales should be held accountable for the lies and deception. Unfortunately most buyers are to blame for not doing their own due diligence.


Buyers aren't to blame. It's not a level playing field. They are being lied and conned. And then Wyndham backs the liars or plays ignorance.


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## Xcalibur (Sep 6, 2022)

lost patience said:


> @chapjim  So it is ok that Wyndham is changing a feature that took us to VIPP?    Our EOY contracts were already included in our membership when we then moved to VIPF.    Our case is similar but different.  Our EOY contracts were acquired many years ago.   Adding a small contract in 2021 took us to founders.  Why did a 325K EOY could as 325k towards VIPP?  No idea, but it did and as of today does.  No argument that going forward NEW purchases would not.    The issue is the same as every other recent Wyndham change.  They are removing benefits that we were TOLD we would have.    I'm very interested learning what other owners are being told.    It seems like Bob & I are the only ones on TUGG impacted.  Another case of bad will towards current owners


we've been affected as well.  we bought many, many years ago and were encouraged to buy it as it would get us VIPG.


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## Xcalibur (Sep 6, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> Actually, you were UPGRADED by Wyndham and now you are getting EXACTLY what you are paying for.


you could say that but if an owner was getting exactly what they paid, the VIP privileges wouldn't be changing.  Wyndham changes the rules all the time. That is what everyone is paying for.


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## Rolltydr (Sep 6, 2022)

I’m a VIP owner. I’m getting exactly what I’m paying for. I knew Wyndham could change the benefits when I signed the contract. I’m not surprised, or angry, that they did so. I’m glad they’re closing loopholes that allowed those with  EOY contracts to get the same benefits for roughly half the MF costs. I’m glad they’re closing loopholes that allowed some to attain millions of points to run rental businesses that reduced the number of units available to owners that followed the rules. We should all be playing by the same rules. And before you say Wyndham isn’t playing by the rules; there is one name on the resorts I stay in when I vacation. It isn’t mine, it’s Wyndham. They own the resorts. The contract says they make the rules and they can change the rules at any time. I signed that contract and if you’re an owner, so did you.


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## scootr5 (Sep 6, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> there is one name on the resorts I stay in when I vacation. It isn’t mine, it’s Wyndham. They own the resorts.



Minor nit to pick, Wyndham _manages _the resorts. It is true that they are also an owner, to varying degrees at the various resorts. Their ownership is no different though than yours or mine though. Their 154,000 point contract votes in the same manner at the yearly HOA meeting as mine does.


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## 55plus (Sep 6, 2022)

At most resorts, mainly at the nicer resorts and at prime locations, Wyndham controls the majority of points through their ownership and proxy voters. Wyndham always have a resort manager on the board along with someone from Wyndham corporate, and a token owner, so what Wyndham wants, Wyndham gets. I consider it a conflict of interest, but that's just my opinion.


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## Rolltydr (Sep 6, 2022)

scootr5 said:


> Minor nit to pick, Wyndham _manages _the resorts. It is true that they are also an owner, to varying degrees at the various resorts. Their ownership is no different though than yours or mine though. Their 154,000 point contract votes in the same manner at the yearly HOA meeting as mine does.


Who has the ability to make and change rules? Oh, and by the way, decide who can actually be an owner? Wyndham can cancel your ownership. You can’t cancel theirs.


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## 55plus (Sep 6, 2022)

I'm not a lawyer nor did I spend the night at Holiday Inn last night, so here goes. I wonder if by Wyndham cancelling someone's ownership without recourse sets precedence for an owner to cancel their ownership without recourse.


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## WManning (Sep 6, 2022)

55plus said:


> I'm not a lawyer nor did I spend the night at Holiday Inn last night, so here goes. I wonder if by Wyndham cancelling someone's ownership without recourse sets precedence for an owner to cancel their ownership without recourse.


LOL! Your logic makes for a good argument but all a owner has to do is walk away and stop paying to cancel the ownership. Or a owner can give back to Wyndham and they will gladly take back ownership for nothing with certified exit. Thats only if its paid in full.


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## 55plus (Sep 6, 2022)

I was thinking of new owners who want to terminate their contract after they realizes they were lied to and are willing to lose their down payment, etc. It worth losing a down payment if one really wants out. But there is some sort of recourse for the owner, whereas Wyndham can terminate a contract at any time for any reason without recourse.


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