# W 57th St update



## jsb15 (Jun 15, 2011)

When I was last at this property in 2009 I had full access to the owner's lounge.  I understand this was taken away in 2010 but I just called to find out if breakfast or any other amenity was included for HHonors Gold status.  They said that lounge access for breakfast was free for owners at this property and for paid room reservations through Hilton but not for other club owners.  Furthermore, other club owners can no longer pay for lounge access.  It does seem wrong that reserving the room and paying cash gets you lounge access.  HGVC likes to say how much you save with their program but that savings comes with stripped down amenities like no lounge access and infrequent room service.

Anyone have recent first hand experience on the lounge access at this property?  Any perks from Gold status at check-in?


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## Remy (Jun 15, 2011)

First of all, the policy is ridiculous. Either the higher point value to trade into W 57th covers the cost of my stay or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then the point value should have been structured higher to begin with. I don't buy the "owners paid a premium so we get more benefits" nonsense. Owners paid a premium so they received more points for their room and amenities.

Hotel reservations getting lounge access shows how silly the ban is. Evidently in the trade for HHonors points the lounge value is preserved, but it didn't translate in the HGVC points value.

I'm going to run for the board at one of my resorts so I can propose that W 57th owners not be allowed to use the pool until lounge access is restored for all guests.


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## yumdrey (Jun 15, 2011)

Remy said:


> I'm going to run for the board at one of my resorts so I can propose that W 57th owners not be allowed to use the pool until lounge access is restored for all guests.



Way to go!
That's a VERY good idea!!


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## Brenda (Jun 16, 2011)

Remy said:


> I'm going to run for the board at one of my resorts so I can propose that W 57th owners not be allowed to use the pool until lounge access is restored for all guests.



I totally agree that 57st owners should receive limited amenities when they trade into other HGCV resorts. We were very upset when we arrived at 57 St for a 5 day stay at 9:00 AM on a January morning. We arrived from CA on a red eye flight. We were hoping to have breakfast and wait in the lounge until our room was ready. But instead, there was no place for us to wait until check in time. We had to go out in the 30 degree weather and find somewhere we could sit for 4-6 hours. Fortunately, we are also owners at the Manhattan Club, which is around the corner, where we could have breakfast and relax in the owners lounge. We felt like 2nd class HGVC owners. We own at HHV, where we pay a premium for purchase and maintenance fees for an Hawaiian resort. At HHV, our guests from other HGVC resorts have access to a beautiful lounge, with many amenities, where they can wait to check in. We at HHV treat our guests with courtesy but we don't receive thew same at 57 ST.


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## Remy (Jun 16, 2011)

Brenda said:


> I totally agree that 57st owners should receive limited amenities when they trade into other HGCV resorts. We were very upset when we arrived at 57 St for a 5 day stay at 9:00 AM on a January morning. We arrived from CA on a red eye flight. We were hoping to have breakfast and wait in the lounge until our room was ready. But instead, there was no place for us to wait until check in time. We had to go out in the 30 degree weather and find somewhere we could sit for 4-6 hours. Fortunately, we are also owners at the Manhattan Club, which is around the corner, where we could have breakfast and relax in the owners lounge. We felt like 2nd class HGVC owners. We own at HHV, where we pay a premium for purchase and maintenance fees for an Hawaiian resort. At HHV, our guests from other HGVC resorts have access to a beautiful lounge, with many amenities, where they can wait to check in. We at HHV treat our guests with courtesy but we don't receive thew same at 57 ST.



Your experience makes me want to buy in Breckenridge and propose all W 57th owners wait outside for check-in. And maybe do a midnight check in during January. Only for W 57th owners. 

"I'm sorry you can't check in until midnight and you'll need to wait outside." "what? that makes no sense? it's ten below!" "neither does denying our members access to the W 57th lounge. can i get you a hand warmer? oops, those are for owners only, my mistake."


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## hvacrsteve (Jun 16, 2011)

The real issue!

The lounge is undersized for the the amount of units!
If it was open to everyone, then everyone would be unhappy!


When we first looked at this place while under construction, that was the first thing I noticed when I reviewed the plans!

I knew it was not going to work well, they should of had fewer units or no spa and multiple lounges.
A Penthouse lounge would have added great value to the property.

They do not and therefore their solution is to limit the number of people allowed to use the lounge.
It should be for owners only if that is the case, there should be no exception for other paying guest!
That is why I would not even consider purchasing this property.

That is the problem, poor planning!


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## Remy (Jun 16, 2011)

I find the pool at the Lagoon tower to be too crowded. Time for owners to limit access. Removing some W 57th owners should do the trick.  

Seems if removing HGVC club members thins the herd, removing hotel reservation guests would make it an even more pleasant environment. Perhaps since we're in the club it should be the reverse? Kick out the Hilton guests and let the HGVC club members in?

I'm annoyed by this particular issue because I just burned through 350,000 HHonors points to stay in NY and on my next trip I wanted to stay at W 57th with HGVC points. Might as well stay at the Manhattan Club through RCI for fewer points. It offers a club lounge with breakfast and evening cocktails. The charge per person for breakfast is $14.99.


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## jsb15 (Jun 16, 2011)

At the very least, those HGVC members using oodles of points to trade into Premier or Penthouse units should have lounge access and they definitely should not include lounge access to non-HGVC Hilton reservations.  With a four night stay I expect they will want to try to sell me the property.  I'm not sure I want to waste my NYC time sitting through a TS talk but if I do I'll certainly let them know that the property design is inadequate.  Furthermore, I don't like the precedent of charging a huge premium for a property ($9/point) like NYC with restricted access since it will encourage HGVC to build resorts in other desirable locations with similar restrictions to my future access.


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## SmithOp (Jun 16, 2011)

Do we kniw who "they" are? Is it HGVC corporate, the club BOD, or did the owners vote on this issue?

I too do not like the pool situation at HHV, i was promised by sales that the pool was going to be for owners only, but they give out passes to hotel users like mints. Kingsland does a much better job limiting access.


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## Remy (Jun 16, 2011)

SmithOp said:


> Do we kniw who "they" are? Is it HGVC corporate, the club BOD, or did the owners vote on this issue?
> 
> I too do not like the pool situation at HHV, i was promised by sales that the pool was going to be for owners only, but they give out passes to hotel users like mints. Kingsland does a much better job limiting access.



In this case, the hotel guests are usually housed in a different building at HHV, such as the Rainbow Tower, and they have their own pool to crowd into. Why they allow hotel guests to use the Lagoon pool is beyond me.

In regard to who did the changing around, right now "they" is likely corporate whether acting as corporate or as the Board of Directors, since corporate likely still owns a majority of the weeks and controls the board at W 57th. But that is my unconfirmed speculation.


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## amisco (Jun 16, 2011)

I think that the driver for the restrictions...including pushing an earlier poster out into winter weather for no good reason, is the misguided marketing efforts for W57th who think that denying visiting HGVC members access to the amenities will make them want to buy at the property.


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## KathyA (Jun 17, 2011)

Another reason for limiting lounge access to owners is because in NY owners are paying far more in maintenance fees.  W. 57th is keeping their maintenance fees down because they are not sold out, but at the Hilton Club New York, which is sold out, the maintenance fees for 12000 points (the cost of a two-bedroom for one week in high season) is $2800.  Compare this to two bedrooms, platinum season at

Las Vegas Hilton ($849)
Las Vegas Strip ($843)
Seaworld ($1317 for a three bedroom)
Lagoon Tower ($1294)
Bay Club ($1214)

Literally double or triple the maintenance fees for NY!  Even now at W. 57th, still keeping fees low until it sells out, you pay $1111 for a studio.  Compare that with the fees for a two bedroom above.


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## Remy (Jun 17, 2011)

KathyA said:


> Another reason for limiting lounge access to owners is because in NY owners are paying far more in maintenance fees.  W. 57th is keeping their maintenance fees down because they are not sold out, but at the Hilton Club New York, which is sold out, the maintenance fees for 12000 points (the cost of a two-bedroom for one week in high season) is $2800.  Compare this to two bedrooms, platinum season at
> 
> Las Vegas Hilton ($849)
> Las Vegas Strip ($843)
> ...



All due respect, but that's wrong. W 57th owners get more points for their fees and the ability to book long before other club members. That's how the system works and how it worked when W 57th opened. W 57th owners pay more in fees (in some cases) and in return they receive more points in the club system and a long home week reservation period. 5250 for a small studio compared to 2200 or 3500 in a place like Hawaii and the club reservation period restricted to 45 days out. Your own comparison shows that. The properties listed have almost half the point values for those 2 bedrooms with lower fees. (Though, HCNY isn't in the club system so it doesn't really count as a reverse trade comparison).

The reward for those extra points W 57th owners pay higher fees for is the ability to trade into a lower fee property for more nights. When a club owner at the properties listed above stays in NY, they are burning more points, so they stay for fewer nights, or in a smaller unit than they would receive at their home resort.

Fees are a deciding factor when determining point value at a premium property such as W 57th, the Grand Waikikian and King's Land where fees are higher than the properties with lower point values. Points and reservation access, not a few cocktails and continental breakfast, are the value proposition for ownership at W 57th. At least, they were until 2011.

If fees are a deciding factor in amenities, then what does one get "extra" when going from NY to Orlando? Extra pillows? A more frequent shuttle? The system simply isn't set up to be amenity restricted or amenity-plus. At least, until I get on a board and start withholding amenities from W 57th owners.


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## janckenn (Jun 17, 2011)

One of the reasons to become an owner at West 57th street is to have certain amenities not available to everyone.  Owner members should have some privileges!  Owners at West 57th have paid considerably higher costs to acquire that particular location and higher costs to maintain that location.  Although others can trade into West 57th, I agree with limiting their access or availability to all amenities that owners have.  Many of the owners of West 57th also own HGVC at other locations so your arguments about limiting our access to amenities at other locations would be ridiculous.

If you want full access to everything at West 57th, then own at West 57th.  I wanted full access at West 57th, so I bought West 57th.  I am looking forward to staying at my home resort in September and October and having use of all amenities.

I am sure that this post will only be appreciated by the other owners at West 57th.


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## jsb15 (Jun 17, 2011)

> One of the reasons to become an owner at West 57th street is to have certain amenities not available to everyone. Owner members should have some privileges!



What privilege do you have as an owner not available to every single person who books a room directly through Hilton?  My understanding is they get every amenity you do plus daily maid service.  

Non W 57th owners are told that their HGVC ownership has value because "points are points" and they can trade for other properties, Hilton Hotel reservations, cruises, etc.  This limitation of amenities at W 57th is a bad precedent for the system.  You may not think that is so if you chose to buy at that property but our acceptance of this fact will enable HGVC to do the same at newer resorts.

Yes, you did pay a huge premium to own at W 57th to get those amenities.  If this were a straight economic proposition, there is no way you can justify the value of paying NYC MF's and $9/point club purchase to get "amenities".  One could certainly book cancellable reservations at one of dozen's of fine NYC hotels until the 44 day window opened for availability while having a Vegas/Orlando HGVC ownership.  This amenity policy annoys me since I am an HGVC owner, this is an owner lounge, but I am denied access while Hilton opens it to its guests.


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## Mel (Jun 17, 2011)

If you propose that part of your fees relate to the amenities, and not your unit, then your unit shouldn't be worth as many points.  Take the points you get for a week in a 2BR unit, and compare it to the cost of a similar number of points at another resort.  The proposition in the past has been that purchasing at a particular resort got you better access, not better perks.  If lounge access is not a transferable perk, then it should be included in the point calculation.

If membership has its privileges, then why give access to hotel guests - they're not members.


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## Remy (Jun 17, 2011)

janckenn said:


> One of the reasons to become an owner at West 57th street is to have certain amenities not available to everyone.  Owner members should have some privileges!  Owners at West 57th have paid considerably higher costs to acquire that particular location and higher costs to maintain that location.  Although others can trade into West 57th, I agree with limiting their access or availability to all amenities that owners have.  Many of the owners of West 57th also own HGVC at other locations so your arguments about limiting our access to amenities at other locations would be ridiculous.
> 
> If you want full access to everything at West 57th, then own at West 57th.  I wanted full access at West 57th, so I bought West 57th.  I am looking forward to staying at my home resort in September and October and having use of all amenities.
> 
> I am sure that this post will only be appreciated by the other owners at West 57th.



One of the reasons to own at Valdoro is to have access to certain amenities not available to everyone. Owner members should have some privileges!
Owners at Valdoro have paid considerably higher costs to acquire that particular location and higher costs to maintain that location.  Although others can trade into Valdoro, I agree with limiting their access or availability to all amenities that owners have.

If you want full access to everything at Valdoro, then own at Valdoro.  I wanted full access at Valdoro, so I bought Valdoro.  I am looking forward to staying at my home resort in Ski season and having use of all amenities.

I am sure that this post will only be appreciated by the other owners at Valdoro.

Oh, and if I get on the board, anyone who owns at W 57th, regardless of other ownerships, won't be able to use the on site ski rental. Ownership has it's privileges!


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## psychjoe (Jun 17, 2011)

> One of the reasons to own at Valdoro is to have access to certain amenities not available to everyone. Owner members should have some privileges!



The logic is flawless.  Is this the kind of timeshare program we really want?  Evidently the West 57th crowd does. I own a Florida affiliate and intend to make this an issue.  The West 57th crowd shouldn't be allowed to use the pool.  It's actually been an issue that our pool is a bit undersized given the number of people staying at the resort, so it's completely analogous to the lounge issue.

I'm looking to buy some other HGVC locations.  This will be an issue I'll make sure to bring to those boards too.


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## hvacrsteve (Jun 17, 2011)

I still believe that Hilton just screwed up the design!
I think they are trying to make it work for owners because they have to.

This was a first for them and they just got it wrong!

Just like some of the pools and other things are wrong at other properties.

It doesn't make any of it the right thing to do, but they are trying this until they figure out something better.

I own at the hilton club and the prices are steep, but I love NYC.

I know I was mad when I got dollared to death at Marbrisa, so we have issues.

But I bought NYC because hat is where I always want to go the most and its close to my home!


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## psychjoe (Jun 17, 2011)

> I still believe that Hilton just screwed up the design! I think they are trying to make it work for owners because they have to.



But that's water under the bridge.  The solution that has been contrived is the issue.  And that solution treats people trading into West57th different.  I expect to be treated like an owner in the places I spend my points.  That's how I expect guests of my condo to be treated.  

At least, that's how I used to feel.  Now I'm a tireless advocate for diminishing the services and features of West57th owners when they trade into any resort that I own. If that crowd feels entitled to treat the rest of the HGVC owners like second class citizens then we should respond in kind.


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## hvacrsteve (Jun 17, 2011)

It is easy to say, much harder to do!
Usually when that starts, it makes it worse for everyone and diminishes the value for everyone.

They did pay a premium for those units, so do we base it on that?
What you paid to own versus what you get in amenities!
The ones that trade into the Club get a great deal considering they get room service, food every day, beer and wine, free internet.
They don't pay extra for those.

You have to realize what the NY market cost, the taxes, fees etc. are many times what they are for Florida or Las Vegas.

I agree its a bad deal when trading into it, but if you don't like it, don't trade into it.


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## psychjoe (Jun 17, 2011)

> They did pay a premium for those units, so do we base it on that?
> What you paid to own versus what you get in amenities!



And that is reflected in the points they receive.




> I agree its a bad deal when trading into it, but if you don't like it, don't trade into it.



And if they don't like the fact they can't use our pool or have any of the other features of properties I own then they can choose not to book into those resorts. 

Don't make West57th out to be victims.  They're the ones that are treating the rest of the owners as second class citizens.


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## janckenn (Jun 17, 2011)

Why all the hate on West 57th owners?
Do you have the same amount of hate for Hilton Club owners?
None of us HGVC owners can book into Hilton Club in NYC!


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## Remy (Jun 17, 2011)

janckenn said:


> Why all the hate on West 57th owners?
> Do you have the same amount of hate for Hilton Club owners?
> None of us HGVC owners can book into Hilton Club in NYC!



Owners are the only ones who can change this policy of treating guests differently. Until that changes, I suspect those who own elsewhere will want to even things out.

HCNY isn't part of the HGVC system.


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## psychjoe (Jun 17, 2011)

> Why all the hate on West 57th owners?



Why all the hate from West57th owners toward other HGVC owners?


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## Talent312 (Jun 17, 2011)

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." -- _Animal Farm_, George Orwell (1945)

Better to buy what you want, than kick sand in face of someone who has what you want. -- _Me_, 2011


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## Remy (Jun 19, 2011)

Talent312 said:


> "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." -- _Animal Farm_, George Orwell (1945)
> 
> Better to buy what you want, than kick sand in face of someone who has what you want. -- _Me_, 2011



I did buy what I want. And I'm a member of the Hilton Grand Vacations Club, which at one time afforded me the ability to use points to stay at any HGVC resort and be treated as if I were an owner. The rule regarding the lounge was changed, not developed at the outset, and specifically targeted HGVC members. Not Hilton Hotel guests or owners of W 57th, just HGVC members. Rules can change at one resort, just as they can change at another. As long as W 57th wants to treat HGVC members differently than everyone else, there is no reason for owners at other resorts not to do the same, whether targeted at W 57th, or club members as a whole.

"ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS"
- George Orwell, _Animal Farm_


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## jsb15 (Jul 14, 2011)

Just for follow-up, I just returned from West 57th and asked about how they justified giving club access to Hilton renters and not to HGVC owners.  I was told it was a "good thing" to do so since it brought more more revenue to the property and defrayed maintenance costs.  The time share talk was just under 60 minutes and not a high pressure environment.  I honestly told them I was not in the market for an additional purchase but wanted to get an update on ownership at HGVC and proposed changes at this particular club.  They did say that they are planning to shorten the reservation for general HGVC members from 44 days to 15 days although that would make no sense to me since they can release the inventory as slowly as they want.  We have been hearing that you had to buy there to get reasonable access for years so this is more of the same.

Not that I'm planning on doing this but I did wonder afterwards about a strategy to get better NYC access at a modest price.  Let's say you bought 3750 W 57th points resale for $20K and another 14000 points in Orlando/Vegas for another $24K.  Would they stop you from using all 17750 points in NYC getting preferred access and no reservation fees and lounge access as an owner at that property?  Unless you really thought the value of the week would appreciate, why buy more than the minimal contract there even if you wanted to stay for weeks when the other point options have lower costs and maintenance?


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## Sandy VDH (Jul 14, 2011)

I decided to book Hilton Club instead of West 57th because of the whole lounge access issue. 

I managed to snag a mid may 2012 stay just a few minutes ago, via RCI. 

Instead of being not available or available at 6800 HGVC points for the week, I picked up a week for 2400 HGVC points for a studio, plus the $199 res fee.  Worth it to pay the res fee for me, that is far less than MFs on 4400 HGVC points.


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