# As of July 26, Enrolled Weeks Owners Will have to use Their VOA to Do II exchanges



## saturn28 (Jul 24, 2010)

I talked to my VOA and she told me Marriott and II have not ironed out the intricacies to allow enrolled weeks owners to do their own searches on II. So as of July 26, the new systems launch date, enrolled weeks owners will have to do all internal weeks exchanges through the VOA for now. She said there is no date to when that new online booking system will be available. In addition, she said the same thing applies to being able to reserve a week using points on the Marriott website. You will have to call the VOA to make your reservations.

I think you can expect a long wait on the phone to get your VOA.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 24, 2010)

One more reason why I'm waiting to join rather than jumping in with both feet. One of the exchanges I make is a studio unit that I routinely move up to a one or two bedroom unit. If Marriott takes that option away from me by FORCING me to use their VOA rather than search for my own exchanges, then that's the deal breaker that keeps me out of the DC. I don NOT need nor do I want a VOA to hold my hand. One of the things I hated about Hilton for so long was that I had to call them, during THEIR business hours, to arrange exchanges outside the Hilton system. I did not like having to listen to their advisor listing off what's available, then look it up to see what I thought. It was time consuming and a HUGE waste of my time. Others might like this service but I prefer to handle my vacation planning myself. 

I suspect this will eventually be worked out to eveyrone's satisfaction. I'll wait patiently on the sidelines until this is decided and I see how it's going to work.


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## Quilter (Jul 24, 2010)

saturn28 said:


> I talked to my VOA and she told me Marriott and II have not ironed out the intricacies to allow enrolled weeks owners to do their own searches on II. So as of July 26, the new systems launch date, enrolled weeks owners will have to do all internal weeks exchanges through the VOA for now. She said there is no date to when that new online booking system will be available. In addition, she said the same thing applies to being able to reserve a week using points on the Marriott website. You will have to call the VOA to make your reservations.
> 
> I think you can expect a long wait on the phone to get your VOA.





When you refer to "internal weeks exchanges" are you meaning weeks that have been converted to points and then to Destination Club inventory?

If a weeks owner wants to just keep his week and exchange it in II can't he look through the II inventory the same as always?

Thanks,
Suzzanne


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## DanCali (Jul 24, 2010)

saturn28 said:


> I talked to my VOA and she told me Marriott and II have not ironed out the intricacies to allow enrolled weeks owners to do their own searches on II. So as of July 26, the new systems launch date, enrolled weeks owners will have to do all internal weeks exchanges through the VOA for now.



Why am I not surprised?  

And of course, once this launches like this there is very little incentive to change this (as if there ever was)... The whole "scrambling to get owners the same access to II they had before" it was all probably a big farce... If they wanted to do that - it's no big deal. I can do all that with my Starwood corporate account. Marriott just doesn't want enrolled owners to do II exchanges, so they will steer you to the VOA who in turn will (try to) convince you to take skimmed points.

So do people really still think you can join points to save on II fees and give up nothing in return?


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## amisco (Jul 24, 2010)

*Good news... Hilton is online for internal exchanges*



dougp26364 said:


> One more reason why I'm waiting to join rather than jumping in with both feet. One of the exchanges I make is a studio unit that I routinely move up to a one or two bedroom unit. If Marriott takes that option away from me by FORCING me to use their VOA rather than search for my own exchanges, then that's the deal breaker that keeps me out of the DC. I don NOT need nor do I want a VOA to hold my hand. One of the things I hated about Hilton for so long was that I had to call them, during THEIR business hours, to arrange exchanges outside the Hilton system. I did not like having to listen to their advisor listing off what's available, then look it up to see what I thought. It was time consuming and a HUGE waste of my time. Others might like this service but I prefer to handle my vacation planning myself.
> 
> I suspect this will eventually be worked out to eveyrone's satisfaction. I'll wait patiently on the sidelines until this is decided and I see how it's going to work.




From what I can see on the HGVC site you can now make your internal Hilton to Hilton trades online... without the call to their VOA


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## winger (Jul 24, 2010)

DanCali said:


> ..... Marriott just doesn't want enrolled owners to do II exchanges, so they will steer you to the VOA who in turn will (try to) convince you to take skimmed points.
> ...?


Or if my sales rep is correct, this gives the VOA a chance to TAKE your week and see if any Points owners wants it BEFORE depositing into II for a search.  Hmmm.  So, we enrolled members are getting screwed yet another way.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 24, 2010)

amisco said:


> From what I can see on the HGVC site you can now make your internal Hilton to Hilton trades online... without the call to their VOA



This is true. Hilton finally changed this maybe a year or two ago. Still, I wasn't happy with Hilton when I had to call their rep. I'm NOT going to go through that with Marriott. I'll keep my personal account and stay out of the DC.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 24, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Why am I not surprised?
> 
> And of course, once this launches like this there is very little incentive to change this (as if there ever was)... The whole "scrambling to get owners the same access to II they had before" it was all probably a big farce... If they wanted to do that - it's no big deal. I can do all that with my Starwood corporate account. Marriott just doesn't want enrolled owners to do II exchanges, so they will steer you to the VOA who in turn will (try to) convince you to take skimmed points.
> 
> So do people really still think you can join points to save on II fees and give up nothing in return?



This is why I've proffesed waiting rather than jumping in. Just because Marriott says it will be all right doesn't mean it will really be all right. What they consider all right and what I consider all right might be two different things.

Marriott has given current owners until Dec. 31st to Decide. That's the ONE thing they've done right during this roll out. Until they get online access for legacy week owners to manage their own trades I'll remain on the sidelines.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 24, 2010)

If you review this thread you can learn for yourself that the II interface for new/corporate accounts doesn't appear so far to be much different from the old II interface.

I think most of us who have enrolled and are going to try to do something Monday do plan on calling in, but none of us are convinced that the online II access won't be there.  Sure, some things could be different, but those of us with the new II accounts aren't convinced of that yet.


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## sjuhawk_jd (Jul 24, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> ...What they consider all right and what I consider all right might be two different things.



Well said. Same dichotomy applies to many things/issues.


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## Dave M (Jul 24, 2010)

I posted this info (including the edit) on June 29 after a discussion with my primary Marriott points contact:





> *If I Enroll my week(s) in the new program, will I have direct online access to II, just as I now do?*
> 
> Marriott's response: Yes, yes, yes. You will be able to search for available II inventory even though you have an ongoing exchange request in place. You will also be able to search for Flexchange opportunities, just as you do now. Marriott is committed to giving current owners the same opportunities they have now. However, if you are concerned about the accuracy of that promise, simply keep your current II account until you are sure.
> 
> *Edited to add: Unfortunately, Marriott did not anticipate the demand that we have for seeing available inventory online when  using one of the new II accounts. Thus, they are scurrying to fix their software so that they can fulfill the commitment to give us that online access. It will happen.*


Reprogramming a complicated system to make such a change doesn't happen overnight. So give it time. 

And the suggestions to wait a while before enrolling to give this system a chance to shake out are, I believe, well founded.


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## DanCali (Jul 24, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Marriott has given current owners until Dec. 31st to Decide. That's the ONE thing they've done right during this roll out. Until they get online access for legacy week owners to manage their own trades I'll remain on the sidelines.



Actually that's not true. There is no deadline to enroll - that is another misconception floating around. The only deadline is "enroll by Dec 31 to get 800 bonus points". There is nothing that says you cannot enroll in 2011, 2012 etc... Who knows, they may even offer MORE bonus points in 2011 if they figure 800 were not enough to sway you.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 24, 2010)

This is a big concern for many. Online II access is important. The VOAs job will be to get you to deposit points for internal trades. They will likely be compensated based on the number of deposits they get, just like II reps are. This doesn't mean you can't do II exchanges through the VOA, just that they will pressure for points deposits and exchanges.

Down the road when Marriott has a lot of enrollees, I fully expect them to pull a true power play. They will go the Starwood route and make you do all deposits through the VOA. Marriott will pick the week for deposit, you won't be able to reserve high demand for deposit. Why would Marriott want to allow you to do that for them to just have to try to get that back from II later for points inventory?


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## Beverley (Jul 24, 2010)

Okay, help me out here ... Are you saying that what I can do now under my new II account set up by Marriott I will not be able to do on Monday?

Just now I was able to search for available locations for next summer using one of my weeks for 2011 under my newly set II account.  What won't we be able to do Monday?

Thanks.

 Beverley


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## DanCali (Jul 24, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> This is a big concern for many. Online II access is important. The VOAs job will be to get you to deposit points for internal trades. They will likely be compensated based on the number of deposits they get, just like II reps are. This doesn't mean you can't do II exchanges through the VOA, just that they will pressure for points deposits and exchanges.



Exactly. Don't forget that when you call to deposit into II, you have not yet converted to points. If they convince you to convert to points, Marriott captures the skim. Each such conversion is 200-800 points captured by Marriott, or $100-$400 in dollar terms. If anyone think they will just call and deposit without getting any pressure to use points they are in for a surprise. The pressure to use points to trade down will be in full force.




dioxide45 said:


> Down the road when Marriott has a lot of enrollees, I fully expect them to pull a true power play. They will go the Starwood route and make you do all deposits through the VOA. Marriott will pick the week for deposit, you won't be able to reserve high demand for deposit. Why would Marriott want to allow you to do that for them to just have to try to get that back from II later for points inventory?



This is almost a certainty. Hence the bait and switch with the "all you can eat" fee... They get the multi week owners to enroll to save on II fees and later on they will pull this stunt as an "enhancement". I just hope they leave unenrolled weeks out of it...


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## SueDonJ (Jul 24, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Exactly. Don't forget that when you call to deposit into II, you have not yet converted to points. If they convince you to convert to points, Marriott captures the skim. Each such conversion is 200-800 points captured by Marriott, or $100-$400 in dollar terms. If anyone think they will just call and deposit without getting any pressure to use points they are in for a surprise. The pressure to use points to trade down will be in full force. ...



I'm not sure this is correct.  The VOA's I've talked to have all said that when the DC is up and running they'll be able to advise us which method - Points or Weeks - will probably work better depending on what we're requesting for an exchange.  I'm looking at three different options for Monday and already have been told by several reps that one of the choices will probably exchange best as Weeks (which is what I thought before I asked.)

Sometimes it feels like Marriott has alternate universes and we all inhabit different ones.  There's no doubt that this rollout has been a disgrace all around, but I haven't felt forced or pressured to do anything by any Marriott rep with whom I've talked.  Maybe I'm in for a rude awakening but I just don't have any reason to expect it.  Besides, they can't take anything away from you if you don't agree to give it.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 24, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Actually that's not true. There is no deadline to enroll - that is another misconception floating around. The only deadline is "enroll by Dec 31 to get 800 bonus points". There is nothing that says you cannot enroll in 2011, 2012 etc... Who knows, they may even offer MORE bonus points in 2011 if they figure 800 were not enough to sway you.



Sorry, I should have said the deadline for the initial offer expires on 12/31. After that there is no guarentee of bonus points or the cost to join.

Do you really think they'll offer more points?


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## dougp26364 (Jul 24, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> This is a big concern for many. Online II access is important. The VOAs job will be to get you to deposit points for internal trades. They will likely be compensated based on the number of deposits they get, just like II reps are. This doesn't mean you can't do II exchanges through the VOA, just that they will pressure for points deposits and exchanges.
> 
> Down the road when Marriott has a lot of enrollees, I fully expect them to pull a true power play. They will go the Starwood route and make you do all deposits through the VOA. Marriott will pick the week for deposit, you won't be able to reserve high demand for deposit. Why would Marriott want to allow you to do that for them to just have to try to get that back from II later for points inventory?



Then that will be the moment that I cancel my membership in their club. The DC is not something I need, want or even desire. If it saves me money then I'm happy to be a member. If Marriott wants to control my week, they off their nut.


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## DanCali (Jul 24, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> I'm not sure this is correct.



I take it that you are disputing my assertion that people will be pressured?

I hope you are not disputing that Marriott captures value from the skim each time you convert to points. That discussion is passé by now... The conclusion was that Marriott skims and we can either live with it or not, right?

As for people being pressured, give it a few weeks -  when VOAs realize their incentives are based on conversions the pressure will happen. And I for one will not be surprised when those posts start popping up.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 24, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I take it that you are disputing my assertion that people will be pressured?
> 
> I hope you are not disputing that Marriott captures value from the skim each time you convert to points. That discussion is passé by now... The conclusion was that Marriott skims and we can either live with it or not, right?
> 
> As for people being pressured, give it a few weeks -  when VOAs realize their incentives are based on conversions the pressure will happen. And I for one will not be surprised when those posts start popping up.



Yes, Dan, skim exists.  I'm over it.

What is it that makes you think the pressure from VOA's, if there is any, will be so difficult for folks (especially TUGgers!) to resist?  There's always been so much pride on TUG for us being able to withstand the awful, horrible, pressure-filled sales pitches, hasn't there?  What's different now?  They're offering another way to use our week(s), that's all, and they're not trying to force our decisions either way.  Look at all the folks who are posting that they haven't heard from Marriott YET about any of this!  What's happening there is the complete opposite of a pressure pitch IMO.  I just don't think any of us need to be saved from the Evil Marriott Empire.


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## cruisin (Jul 25, 2010)

DanCali said:


> This is almost a certainty. Hence the bait and switch with the "all you can eat" fee... They get the multi week owners to enroll to save on II fees and later on they will pull this stunt as an "enhancement". I just hope they leave unenrolled weeks out of it...



After what they have done with points,  we should expect this to happen , Marriott has shown their hand, and this would certainly be their MO. With Marriott, you now have to assume the worst. They never wanted owners in the new system to be able to search II, it takes away some of their control, they must see this as a major backlash. 

I am seriously considering joining for the fee savings, but would never join if I have to rely on them for all my II exchanging ability. Right now they need people to join, once they get enough people to enroll, they can  deploy phase 2  in the devaluation of our memberships use value.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 25, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Yes, Dan, skim exists.  I've over it.
> 
> What is it that makes you think the pressure from VOA's, if there is any, will be so difficult for folks (especially TUGgers!) to resist?  There's always been so much pride on TUG for us being able to withstand the awful, horrible, pressure-filled sales pitches, hasn't there?  What's different now?  They're offering another way to use our week(s), that's all, and they're not trying to force our decisions either way.  Look at all the folks who are posting that they haven't heard from Marriott YET about any of this!  What's happening there is the complete opposite of a pressure pitch IMO.  I just don't think any of us need to be saved from the Evil Marriott Empire.



I understand Dan's points of view. After years of getting taken by big companies, it's hard not to have a dim view of their motives.

For instance, I'm sitting in a hotel room right now that I didn't have to pay for. So why did I pay for it if payment wasn't required? Because I've grown accustomed to having to fight airlines for every little thing I can scrape out of them when they screw up. Delta crossed me up by providing hotel vouchers, meal vouchers and tomorrows boarding passes as soon as we stepped off the plane. That's not how I'm accustomed to big business handling it's customers.

Dan feels that Marriott is our for Marriott. Until Marriott proves him wrong, he wont' change his mind. That's all right and I understand his points of view. I'm also skeptical that everything will be all rosey and grand. I'm hopeful but, having been burned more than a couple by big business, I'm also watchful.


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## DanCali (Jul 25, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Yes, Dan, skim exists.  I've over it.
> 
> What is it that makes you think the pressure from VOA's, if there is any, will be so difficult for folks (especially TUGgers!) to resist?



The same reason that 300,000+ folks bought timeshares from Marriott...


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## Latravel (Jul 25, 2010)

Why do you think there will be pressure from VOA's to make money from making trades?  Is that in any documents?  I've dealt with many different VOA's and all have been very helpful and polite, doing only what I want them to do.  Why would it be different now?


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## dougp26364 (Jul 25, 2010)

Latravel said:


> Why do you think there will be pressure from VOA's to make money from making trades?  Is that in any documents?  I've dealt with many different VOA's and all have been very helpful and polite, doing only what I want them to do.  Why would it be different now?



I think what Dan is looking at is the profit in the Skim. If everytime a legacy week owner converts their week to points, Marriott makes an automatic 7% profit becuase they give you 7% fewer points than it takes to reserve a week at your home resort (on average), then there is a strong influence for Marriott to want to convince owners to convert to points.

For instance, you call the VOA to arrange a week to week exchange and you're told, that week isn't available in the weeks pool but, we show it as being available in the points pool, then there's pressure to convert. Get that exchange now by converting or wait and risk not getting that exchange at all.

7% profit for nothing can be a very strong motivator. I see his point. Now, will that be the case or not? Will Marriott arrange online access or not? If they do, will the same temptation be placed before owners showing the week as availabe in points but not in weeks?

I'm leaning towards optimism myself rather than looking for the shooter on the grasy knowl but, the thought has crossed me mind. Marriott has set itself up for this sort of thought process by introducing the skim in the first place without offering any sort of explanation as to why it exists.

The good news is, owners don't have to join. Marriott has to sell legacy week owners on the idea of joining. Take 7% value away from me AND take away my ability to make my own exchanges online AND take away my ability to move up in unit size from a studio to one bedroom AND you take away any incentive for me to join the DC, even if it would save me a couple of hundred dollars every year on ala carte fee's.


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## hipslo (Jul 25, 2010)

*Where is my new corporate II account?*

I enrolled my weeks a couple of weeks ago and havent heard anything from anyone, VOA or otherwise, about my new, marriott provided II corporate account.  My old account is still there, same as always. I had deposited a 2011 week, several months ago, and my understanding is that my old, individual II account needs to remain open, at my cost, until I have exchanged that deposit, and used the exchange.  But why dont I have this new, free coprorate account for use, going forward, that many of you already seem to have?  Do I need to call and ask for it to be set up?  If so, why should that be?  I paid to enroll, why isnt marriott taking care of this for me?


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## Dean (Jul 25, 2010)

I realize there are many facets here.  However, if anyone thinks that Marriott is going to worry about whether enrolled owners work with II with weeks OR points based on the "profit" in the skim and are going to counsel the VOA's to do this as "suggestive selling", I think they've lost it.


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## kjd (Jul 25, 2010)

I'm having difficulty with all of this skim talk.  I don't understand fully how a "skim" makes it to Marriott's bottom line.  It's probably my fault because I have no intention of converting to the DC or anything involving the point system.  I admit that I'm disinterested.

Having said that, it appears to me that all Marriott is doing is skimming points which let's face it, is thin air.  In order to get any money for those points don't they have to sell them to someone?  Marriott has already made their profit when they sold the unit or points to someone initially. 

How does Marriott get the full 7% when they have unsold inventory, fixed administrative costs of the points program and discounts.  I don't think that there will be enough people who will consistently purchase points to make this a great Marriott profit center.  It looks more like "chump change".

Anyone who has been in business knows the difference between a margin and a profit.  If Marriott is taking a 7% points discount (or expressed as a profit margin) as mentioned earlier, only a portion of that ends up on the corporate bottom line.  Furthermore, when reflected against the entire net profit of the Marriott corporation the skimming would seem to be insignificant to Marriott.  I can't imagine a group of "corporate suits" sitting around their headquarters crafting a skimming program to add value to the corporation.   Is this whole skimming issue much to do about nothing?  

Seems to me that this is just another case of bad customer relations.


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## hipslo (Jul 25, 2010)

kjd said:


> I'm having difficulty with all of this skim talk.  I don't understand fully how a "skim" makes it to Marriott's bottom line.  It's probably my fault because I have no intention of converting to the DC or anything involving the point system.  I admit that I'm disinterested.
> 
> Having said that, it appears to me that all Marriott is doing is skimming points which let's face it, is thin air.  In order to get any money for those points don't they have to sell them to someone?  Marriott has already made their profit when they sold the unit or points to someone initially.
> 
> ...



If all enrolled owners traded their weeks in for points and used those points to make reservations, there would be roughly 7% of the weeks inventory left unoccupied due to the skim.  Marriott could then rent out the unoccupied days and generate a new source of revenue.  The same thing applies as to each enrolled owner who elects points.  Every time an enrolld owner elects points, that creates some unoccupied days that marriott could rent if it were so inclined.


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## Fredm (Jul 25, 2010)

hipslo said:


> If all enrolled owners traded their weeks in for points and used those points to make reservations, there would be roughly 7% of the weeks inventory left unoccupied due to the skim.  Marriott could then rent out the unoccupied days and generate a new source of revenue.  The same thing applies as to each enrolled owner who elects points.  Every time an enrolld owner elects points, that creates some unoccupied days that marriott could rent if it were so inclined.



Of course they could. They probably will. 
OTOH, Marriott is using MRP conversions (to some unknown extent) to seed the system. Heretofore, it was theirs to do with as they pleased (and I presume still is). They paid for it. 

See my post in another thread on this matter.


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## GregT (Jul 25, 2010)

kjd said:


> I'm having difficulty with all of this skim talk.  I don't understand fully how a "skim" makes it to Marriott's bottom line.  It's probably my fault because I have no intention of converting to the DC or anything involving the point system.  I admit that I'm disinterested.
> 
> Having said that, it appears to me that all Marriott is doing is skimming points which let's face it, is thin air.  In order to get any money for those points don't they have to sell them to someone?  Marriott has already made their profit when they sold the unit or points to someone initially.



I believe there are two groups of owners impacted by skimming, that results in profit for Marriott.

1) Someone like me -- who is being skimmed 1,675 points (or approx $630 in value at $0.40 in MFs per point) for redeeming each of their two weeks.   I've paid the MFs for my two weeks, so if it sits empty for a night or two, it doesn't cost Marriott anything.   But, Marriott will premium price the unit and sell more points (and MFs) to someone else so they can book it.  If it goes empty, they'll rent it for cash.  What's an ocean-front night in a 3BR at Maui Ocean Club in summer rent for?   2BR's per their website are $800.

But Marriott would give me lots and lots of points to work with if I ever redeemed my weeks, so it's more of annoyance for me.  I would much preferred simply paying whatever annual fees/costs are needed so there was no need to skim.

2) The second group is the average owner who owns 1.8 weeks --  By offering you 93% of what your week is worth, many owners fundamentally have less "currency" to work with in utilizing the system, and many owners will be short 300-500 points in order to be able to book the week they want.   To cover that shortfall (from being skimmed), they may buy 1,000 points from Marriott at $9.20 and pay $0.40 MFs.   So, if most owners had never been skimmed, the need to buy the points would be less prevalent.

I've enrolled for a number of reasons but for reasons other than simply to save fees.  I don't expect to redeem for points either as I have a terrific companion system (Worldmark) and am looking to add another (HGVC) so that I am not dependent on Marriott for the desired flexibility, and so that I can avoid the (personal) injustice of being skimmed.   

I believe skimming is more detrimental to many owners than they realize, and they will see it when they are evaluating options and are consistently 300-500 points short, and the compromise is to only go for 6 nights instead of 7, or to downgrade the view category, or go in shoulder season.  Each of those decisions will leave an open night or entire unit for Marriott to rent, perhaps even the best units and weeks.    

Interesting stuff.   Eventually I stop railing against the skim, but I'm not sure when.  I hope no one every goes back through my posts and figures out what % were a skim rant!   

Best to all,

Greg


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## saturn28 (Jul 25, 2010)

Why does every thread have to turn into a discussion about skimming?


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## kjd (Jul 25, 2010)

Both Marriott and II sit there with a ****load of unsold inventory all of the time.  It happened before the points system and will happen after.  There are a lot of low seasons in timesharing.  That's why it's possible many times to "trade up".  

In theory they could try to rent every week but It'll never happen. The II and Marriott vacation inventory is more perishable than fresh fish.  Therefore, I have trouble seeing skimming as a big deal.


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## m61376 (Jul 25, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I think what Dan is looking at is the profit in the Skim. If everytime a legacy week owner converts their week to points, Marriott makes an automatic 7% profit becuase they give you 7% fewer points than it takes to reserve a week at your home resort (on average), then there is a strong influence for Marriott to want to convince owners to convert to points.
> 
> For instance, you call the VOA to arrange a week to week exchange and you're told, that week isn't available in the weeks pool but, we show it as being available in the points pool, then there's pressure to convert. Get that exchange now by converting or wait and risk not getting that exchange at all.
> 
> ...


Doug - I agree with everything you've said- except in many cases the skim is more than 7%. In fact, Marriott officials have stated to me that they created a 10% premium when exchanging back into your own resort using points- indicating that the overall skim was geared to 10% (same concept that you've outlined, just a bit higher).


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## SueDonJ (Jul 25, 2010)

hipslo said:


> I enrolled my weeks a couple of weeks ago and havent heard anything from anyone, VOA or otherwise, about my new, marriott provided II corporate account.  My old account is still there, same as always. I had deposited a 2011 week, several months ago, and my understanding is that my old, individual II account needs to remain open, at my cost, until I have exchanged that deposit, and used the exchange.  But why dont I have this new, free coprorate account for use, going forward, that many of you already seem to have?  Do I need to call and ask for it to be set up?  If so, why should that be?  I paid to enroll, why isnt marriott taking care of this for me?



Have you seen this thread where those of us with new II account numbers are posting our findings?  NJMOM2 posted the simplest way to find yours - sign in to my-vacationclub.com, go to "Home" - "Manage My Account" - "My Profile" and you should see both II account numbers there.  Then it's a matter of setting it up with a new password.

If you don't see both numbers there you can call your VOA for help; his/her name and number is on the sign-in page (which you may already know.)


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## SueDonJ (Jul 25, 2010)

GregT said:


> ... Interesting stuff.   Eventually I stop railing against the skim, but I'm not sure when.  I hope no one every goes back through my posts and figures out what % were a skim rant!
> 
> Best to all,
> 
> Greg



Marriott has taken detailed notes and will zing you when it's least expected.  Be aware.  :rofl:


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## hipslo (Jul 25, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Have you seen this thread where those of us with new II account numbers are posting our findings?  NJMOM2 posted the simplest way to find yours - sign in to my-vacationclub.com, go to "Home" - "Manage My Account" - "My Profile" and you should see both II account numbers there.  Then it's a matter of setting it up with a new password.
> 
> If you don't see both numbers there you can call your VOA for help; his/her name and number is on the sign-in page (which you may already know.)



I hadnt seen that, thanks, I will try it.

Edited to add:  Just checked, profile only lists my individual II account number.  Guess I will need to call my VOA tomorrow. Not a big deal anyway, I am already all set for 2011 usage.


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## DanCali (Jul 25, 2010)

kjd said:


> I'm having difficulty with all of this skim talk.  I don't understand fully how a "skim" makes it to Marriott's bottom line.



Here's how it can affect their bottom line.


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## DanCali (Jul 25, 2010)

Latravel said:


> Why do you think there will be pressure from VOA's to make money from making trades?  Is that in any documents?  I've dealt with many different VOA's and all have been very helpful and polite, doing only what I want them to do.  Why would it be different now?



I don't think thy will put in the documents that there will be pressure...

Did they put in the documents that they are taking a 10% fee for every exchange? But they do just that using skim... 

II pressures people often to take alternative exchanges for a $109 fee. If Marriott's exchange fee (charged via skim when you convert to points) is $100-$400 you can be sure there will be pressure.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Jul 25, 2010)

Latravel said:


> Why do you think there will be pressure from VOA's to make money from making trades?  Is that in any documents?  I've dealt with many different VOA's and all have been very helpful and polite, doing only what I want them to do.  Why would it be different now?





Does anyone know if the VOA's are being paid by the hour or are they on a commission earning basis?



.


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## Fredm (Jul 25, 2010)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> Does anyone know if the VOA's are being paid by the hour or are they on a commission earning basis?.



VOA's have always been salaried employees.

Don't know if the compensation package has changed with the introduction of the new program. I suspect not.

The VOA position was created about 10 years ago to offload the servicing of owners from sales reps. Many good sales execs maintain a relationship with their owners for referrals, and other reasons.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 25, 2010)

Fredm said:


> VOA's have always been salaried employees.
> 
> Don't know if the compensation package has changed with the introduction of the new program. I suspect not.



They can still be salaried, but also paid bonuses based on exchanges the complete or deposits they get. I am sure that II reps are not 100% commission. They likely get paid a salary plus bonus based on transactions completed.


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## Fredm (Jul 25, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> They can still be salaried, but also paid bonuses based on exchanges the complete or deposits they get. I am sure that II reps are not 100% commission. They likely get paid a salary plus bonus based on transactions completed.



Possibly. The role has changed to include duties not previously an integral part of their job. 

Actually, I would view it as a good thing if they were somehow compensated for filling owner exchange requests.


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## kedler (Jul 25, 2010)

Beverley said:


> Okay, help me out here ... Are you saying that what I can do now under my new II account set up by Marriott I will not be able to do on Monday?
> 
> Just now I was able to search for available locations for next summer using one of my weeks for 2011 under my newly set II account.  What won't we be able to do Monday?
> 
> ...


Hi Beverly,

I don't think any of us know what we will be able to do tomorrow. So far I don't have online access because I haven't received my new corporate account number despite several calls to the VOAs in Salt Lake & to II directly which is frustrating so I will have to call no matter what. 

In your shoes I'd try to do both simultaneously so that if you are able to get something online you can confirm it with the VOA as well. One of the "senior" VOAs told me, for now, not to trust the computer totally because they are still working on getting it right but that it would be there soon.

Please let us know if you are successful online tomorrow! I'm sure it will be faster than calling.

Good luck!


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## Latravel (Jul 25, 2010)

Dean said:


> I realize there are many facets here.  However, if anyone thinks that Marriott is going to worry about whether enrolled owners work with II with weeks OR points based on the "profit" in the skim and are going to counsel the VOA's to do this as "suggestive selling", I think they've lost it.



I couldn't have said this better.  The vast majority of Marriotts profit is coming from selling points NOT from the skim from current owners.  The only pressure weeks owners may feel will be from salespeople trying to get us to buy more points so that if we exchange for points, we can get the prime weeks.  That is the job of salespeople, not the VOA.

From my years with Marriott, VOA's have never gotten involved with sales.  They are not salespeople.  I don't expect that to change since the sales model has not changed - just the product.


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## Latravel (Jul 25, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I don't think thy will put in the documents that there will be pressure...
> 
> Did they put in the documents that they are taking a 10% fee for every exchange? But they do just that using skim...
> 
> II pressures people often to take alternative exchanges for a $109 fee. If Marriott's exchange fee (charged via skim when you convert to points) is $100-$400 you can be sure there will be pressure.




What I meant is there a place in the documents that state a change in the VOA's job position to now "encourage" or "direct" owners to pick between points and weeks vacations?  If not, I don't think their job descriptions have changed.  

I think this is another case of people worrying about nothing.  It would seem very weird and out of place to me if a VOA starts performing a sales function so I wouldn't worry about this.


----------



## Dean (Jul 25, 2010)

Latravel said:


> I couldn't have said this better.  The vast majority of Marriotts profit is coming from selling points NOT from the skim from current owners.  The only pressure weeks owners may feel will be from salespeople trying to get us to buy more points so that if we exchange for points, we can get the prime weeks.  That is the job of salespeople, not the VOA.
> 
> From my years with Marriott, VOA's have never gotten involved with sales.  They are not salespeople.  I don't expect that to change since the sales model has not changed - just the product.


It does lead one to question WHY the skim.  My suspicion is that one of the main reasons is that a points system is inherently less efficient and that if they gave out points equaling 51.5 weeks (which is what they normally sold in weeks), there simply wouldn't be enough villas to handle all the points in the real world once you lose a day here and there.  I'm sure there are other factors.  I'd love to hear a real explanation from someone in the know enough to actually say rather than from the black helicopters flying around here.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 25, 2010)

Dean said:


> I realize there are many facets here.  However, if anyone thinks that Marriott is going to worry about whether enrolled owners work with II with weeks OR points based on the "profit" in the skim and are going to counsel the VOA's to do this as "suggestive selling", I think they've lost it.



Lost it? You have to be kidding, right? Bottom line is, Marriott makes more money from people converting to points that those exchanging through II. 

That "profit" can come in many forms; more people buying points because it appears to be a better product due to better inventory, skim, not having to re-exchange with II to get that deposited week back from them.

There are far more benefits to Marriott from people using their exchange company than using II.

The new program utilizes a new exchange company. Bottom line, that is what the new MVD product is for enrolled owners. It isn't far fetched to believe that Marriott will compensate their exchange company employees the same way every other exchange company does. That being with bonuses for increased exchange company transactions.


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## Dean (Jul 25, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> Lost it? You have to be kidding, right? Bottom line is, Marriott makes more money from people converting to points that those exchanging through II.
> 
> That "profit" can come in many forms; more people buying points because it appears to be a better product due to better inventory, skim, not having to re-exchange with II to get that deposited week back from them.
> 
> ...


My reference was related to posts just before mine including Doug's talking about calling in the situation where one calls their VOA related to an II exchange.


> For instance, you call the VOA to arrange a week to week exchange and you're told, that week isn't available in the weeks pool but, we show it as being available in the points pool, then there's pressure to convert. Get that exchange now by converting or wait and risk not getting that exchange at all.


I was not referring to the general conversion process which obviously has some element of profit associated though I doubt all that much overall.  I stand by my premise that I don't see Marriott telling the VOA's to do suggestive selling by suggesting one convert weeks to points when an enrolled owner calls them to place an exchange, at least from a profit motive.  Sorry to be confusing.


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## DanCali (Jul 25, 2010)

Latravel said:


> I couldn't have said this better.  The vast majority of Marriotts profit is coming from selling points NOT from the skim from current owners.



Then I'm sure they will announce tomorrow they are giving everyone the average points required to trade into their season and that skim was all a big mistake... I don't think so...

Obviously the skim was well thought of and is part of the strategy. They care about it just like credit card companies care about the $29 late fees. Just like Apple cares about giving a $30 case rather than recalling a defective product. They care because in a market the size of the US, where you have hundreds of thousands or millions of customers, these fees/amounts aggregate to millions of dollars a year. 



> It does lead one to question WHY the skim. My suspicion is that one of the main reasons is that a points system is inherently less efficient and that if they gave out points equaling 51.5 weeks (which is what they normally sold in weeks), there simply wouldn't be enough villas to handle all the points in the real world once you lose a day here and there.



The "problem" you describe can easily be solved by allowing reservations shorter than 7 days only at 90 days out rather than at 10 months out. Or, alternatively, charge a fee for short stays rather than skim all owners. I refer to it as a "problem" because this "breakage" you describe is a made up problem by Marriott. It's not really a problem and if it is then I fail to see how skim compensates for this. As long as the MFs for points and weeks are paid, who cares if weeks go unused? It's not coming out of our of our HOAs pockets. I'm sure plenty of weeks went unused in the weeks system, and nobody said it was costing owners anything because it's not. An unused week still pays MFs. But if you buy the fairy tale that unused weeks cost owners and it is coming out of our pockets, I never saw a disclosure how skim pays us back for it...

The skim is there to create unused weeks so Marriot can rent them for a profit. It's there to allow Marriott to trade you a lowly week from the trust for a better week, and rent that better week for more money. It's to make MVCI and Marriott more profitable - at our expense.



> I stand by my premise that I don't see Marriott telling the VOA's to do suggestive selling by suggesting one convert weeks to points when an enrolled owner calls them to place an exchange



I'll agree to disagree on this. Marriott is not in the non-profit business or subsidizing multi-week owners' II exchanges. There are probably quite a few reasons why they want II exchanges to go through their reps and their corporate II account. We'll find out at least some of those reasons soon enough...


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## Dean (Jul 25, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Then I'm sure they will announce tomorrow they are giving everyone the average points required to trade into their season and that skim was all a big mistake... I don't think so...
> 
> Obviously the skim was well thought of and is part of the strategy. They care about it just like credit card companies care about the $29 late fees. Just like Apple cares about giving a $30 case rather than recalling a defective product. They care because in a market the size of the US, where you have hundreds of thousands or millions of customers, these fees/amounts aggregate to millions of dollars a year.
> 
> ...


It's OK to disagree.  Marriott has never used the VOA's for such sales measures, I'm not expecting them to start now.  Certainly Marriott could have taken other approaches to this and other issues but they didn't.  Thus the question remains of why this approach.  While I'm sure there's a profit motive, I'm not convinced that's the whole story.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 25, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Doug - I agree with everything you've said- except in many cases the skim is more than 7%. In fact, Marriott officials have stated to me that they created a 10% premium when exchanging back into your own resort using points- indicating that the overall skim was geared to 10% (same concept that you've outlined, just a bit higher).



There are a few weeks where it's less and, in some cases I can reserve weeks for less than what I'm given, so it works itself out. 7% appears to be the average per those TUGGERS who worked it out. 

Saturn, 
Sorry for following the skimming brick road but, I tend to go whichever way the conversation meanders. I'm with you though. We've talked skimming to death and, as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing new under the sun.


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## Quilter (Jul 25, 2010)

I know many of you have been reading and posting for over a month now and I've just come to these threads in the past week to catch up on the "talk" about the new program.   My first gut reaction to "skim", as it was called, was negative because that was the way it was presented in a post.   

I'd rather not see a blatant point reduction in my week as it comes to light when I try to trade back into my home resort.   However, that wouldn't mean fees to fund this program wouldn't be buried somewhere else.   Face it, Marriott is a corporation responsible to it's share holders, it employs American workers and it is in the "service" industry.   What service to you expect to get if you don't pay for it?   Do you walk into a fine restaurant not expecting to tip on top of paying for your meal?   Do you walk into a JW hotel not expecting that the cost of everything will be higher just because it comes with a high degree of service?   This new program contains many new services and for those Marriott will need to have employees, copiers, pens and computers (oh yes, and headsets) to pay for.   Do you think they're going to do this as a charitable donation to you?   

In reality, we don't know that the 7-10% "skim" that may ultimately end up with rooms being rented for revenue might just be the thing that keeps the lights on in the corporate office so our VOA's don't have to work by candlelight.   We don't know how the funds for this program are figured but we want to travel in style and for that we have decided we liked the quality of Marriott's style.   

I complained about enrollment fees and skim to my salesguy when we had our discussion about the new program.   We've had a good relationship for 10 years as my husband and I have found him to be "good people".   Been through his finding a lovely wife and now a papa to a couple of girls.   He's a friend and we trust him.   He's also a 3 week owner as well as a Marriott employee so he has a vested interest in watching the corporation from the inside.   He pointed out that why would Mr. Marriott after all these years of building people's trust destroy that when the timeshare industry is just a small portion of the large Marriott corporation.  With our 7 weeks the enrollment was $285 per week to give them all equal opportunity to do whatever we wanted, business the old way or business the new way.   Mostly for me it will take care of those pesky fees.   I now can lock-off, lock-off, change, change, change, trade for points even with my resale weeks without cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching.   Yes, I know that somehow I'm paying for it.   Nothing's free.   But I have options--lots and lots of options.

The program won't be for everyone so there won't be a 7-10% skim from every owner.   Even the enrolled owners won't always trade for points.   There's no way the corporation could know just how much they'll reap in the skim--but they did know they'll have to pay people to handle the services.

If you don't want to pay for more services then don't enroll.   Seems simple.


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## pipet (Jul 26, 2010)

Quilter said:


> I now can lock-off, lock-off, change, change, change, trade for points even with my resale weeks without cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching.   Yes, I know that somehow I'm paying for it.   Nothing's free.   But I have options--lots and lots of options.
> 
> The program won't be for everyone so there won't be a 7-10% skim from every owner.   Even the enrolled owners won't always trade for points.   There's no way the corporation could know just how much they'll reap in the skim--but they did know they'll have to pay people to handle the services.
> 
> If you don't want to pay for more services then don't enroll.   Seems simple.



Actually, it sounds like instead of paying for more services, you will just see pure savings.  It doesn't sound like you are likely to pay at all as you'll soon recoup the costs of the initial buy-in.  If you lock off frequently, and it sounds like you do, that means you will be continuing to use the weeks system (because you must deposit "full" weeks in the system, not lockoff units), except now your fees are subsidized.  

You only pay the skim when you convert to points. Although I am not a fan of the system, I do understand the flexibility is great for some people, and I can certainly see that the increased flexibility will see increased costs, but I'd rather pay for flexibility _only_ if I am using it.  If I were to convert to points but stay a full week, I am not incurring extra cleanings, etc, so it's hard for me to see why Marriott chose to set up the system this way.

In your case, you will save money, and other people will subsidize your use of the II system.   I don't criticize your decision as it's a positive thing for your bottom line, but who does want to be the one to pay for it?  An ala carte system may be less desirable for someone like you with many weeks, but if Marriott had really wanted people to convert to points, which is seems like they would, it seems like the fees would have come into play elsewhere.  Honestly, I will be surprised if they don't end up increasing fees at some point - that is - unless they really do get lots of points converters to pay for it.

----
It will be interesting to see how everything works with the VOAs tomorrow and over the next few months.   I for one am going to be on the sidelines watching!


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## DanCali (Jul 26, 2010)

Quilter said:


> In reality, we don't know that the 7-10% "skim" that may ultimately end up with rooms being rented for revenue might just be the thing that keeps the lights on in the corporate office so our VOA's don't have to work by candlelight.   We don't know how the funds for this program are figured but we want to travel in style and for that we have decided we liked the quality of Marriott's style.



Marriott get's a 10% management fee... They charge an enrollment fee of $600-$2000 to enroll in this program which is just an exchange company and we know the points you get are just exchange points and not equal to trust points (would you pay II $2K?)... If 40,000 people enroll that's roughly $40M in revenue. They also charge a $165/$200 annual fee even if you just use your weeks like you did in the past... (another $6-$8M for 40,000 enrolees). They already had most of the infrastructure and employees in place (points VOAs are just ex weeks VOAs who were retrained)... They now also get to sell silver and bronze weeks, which they already wrote off as a total loss, as points to new buyers...

So if you are suggesting all of the above is not enough to cover the costs of the new program and they need to skim/steal 10% of your points each time you convert to points maybe the program is not financially viable? Maybe it should have never been launched...


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## Dean (Jul 26, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Marriott get's a 10% management fee... They charge an enrollment fee of $600-$2000 to enroll in this program which is just an exchange company and we know the points you get are just exchange points and not equal to trust points (would you pay II $2K?)... If 40,000 people enroll that's roughly $40M in revenue. They also charge a $165/$200 annual fee even if you just use your weeks like you did in the past... (another $6-$8M for 40,000 enrolees). They already had most of the infrastructure and employees in place (points VOAs are just ex weeks VOAs who were retrained)... They now also get to sell silver and bronze weeks, which they already wrote off as a total loss, as points to new buyers...
> 
> So if you are suggesting all of the above is not enough to cover the costs of the new program and they need to skim/steal 10% of your points each time you convert to points maybe the program is not financially viable? Maybe it should have never been launched...


That's only one side of the ledger.  There are additional costs associated with such a program and there are other fees that are either not going to be collected OR will be covered by the program including exchange fees, cancelation fees, lockoff fees.  These are $$$ that were previously included in the balance sheet that will have to be offset.  None of us have enough info to string together the entire balance sheet and I doubt we ever will.  We've already established that many people will actually save money on the new program.  We don't know what the payment arrangements between II and Marriott are.  It's likely that there is no money changing hands but II is getting other considerations to offset the costs associated with the exchanges that will currently be free.


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## DanCali (Jul 26, 2010)

Dean said:


> That's only one side of the ledger.  There are additional costs associated with such a program and there are other fees that are either not going to be collected OR will be covered by the program including exchange fees, cancelation fees, lockoff fees.  These are $$$ that were previously included in the balance sheet that will have to be offset.  None of us have enough info to string together the entire balance sheet and I doubt we ever will.  We've already established that many people will actually save money on the new program.  We don't know what the payment arrangements between II and Marriott are.  It's likely that there is no money changing hands but II is getting other considerations to offset the costs associated with the exchanges that will currently be free.



This is really not as complicated as you make it sound. 

Yes, some people will allegedly save money on the program if you believe that Marriott will just let you trade weeks like you did in the past from the corporate II account without any consequences down the road. But those "savings" come at II's expense, not Marriott's. When someone enrolls Marriott will lose on some lockoff fees, and cancellation fees and split week fees weeks but that's about it (there are no exchange fees they are losing out on by allegedly giving an "all-you-can-eat fee" because that's II's loss). On the other hand owners now pay $165/$200 a year to Marriott. So is Marriott not clearly better off?

I'm sure Marriott has done the math but let's do a quick back of the envelope calculation to make sure they are not driving themselves bankrupt...

So if we assume that single week owners are 80% (likely more) of owners, can we agree that they make money on pretty all of them just by charging $165 per year? At most those owners would have paid $75 to lockoff or split their single week, and maybe a few would have paid 1 or 2 cancellation fees. Marriott charges $165 to everyone, even to those who just use their full week as in the past.  And according to an ARDA survey, in 2008 45% of "traditional timeshare owners" just used their weeks, 7% rented their weeks, and 10% of weeks went unused (see my comment in post #50 regarding the "breakage" fairy tale) so all these now pay $165 to Marriott when in the past they likely paid nothing.

So let's go to the few owners who own 2 weeks. In the past they would have paid Marriott at most 2 lockoff or split weeks fees and maybe 1 or 2 cancellation fees. Now they pay $200. Since 2 lockoff fees and two cancellation fees are around $210, then Marriott pretty much breaks even on those. But if we make a reasonable assumption that many of these owners don't lockoff (some use the full 2BR or 3BR, some have dedicated 2BRs, some have 1BRs) then Marriott makes money on most of these guys as well.

So where Marriott may lose a bit of money by offering the flat fee are the multiple week owners who own 3 weeks or more who lockoff most of their weeks. Can we agree that that's a very small subset of owners? Maybe 5% of owners or less?

As for charging cash for exchanges - let's not forget that these are not really marketed as exchanges. Marriott is not even admitting in plain English that Trust Points > Legacy Points. They are saying you get "access to trust inventory". So if they make it sound like a reservation, why should you pay for it? Did you pay for reservations in the past? Technically, even though we all know it's an exchange, we are trying very hard to rationalize that inventory will be comingled and effectively it will function like a reservation system. So why pay for that? Incidentally, Starwood charges $109 annual fee and no exchange fees - they haven't filed for bankruptcy yet...

Overall, it seems to me that the annual fee is very profitable compared to the "foregone revenue" you point out to. Not to mention the outlandish enrolment fees to an exchange company (like I said above - would you pay II a $2000 enrollment fee?  )

So was the skim a result of necessity or corporate greed?


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## Latravel (Jul 26, 2010)

Geez.  I've never seen so much consistent negativity towards a company from a poster.  

Yes.  Marriott is making a profit - a big profit.  Did you expect them to take on this monumental effort, pay multi millions of dollars to very expensive consultants and lawyers, for free?  The skim is one part of the profit to cover costs and enhance the bottom line.

Since I own multiple timeshare weeks and have over a million reward points, i'm happy when this company is doing well.  They will offer more products, build more timeshares and buy more hotels - all to my benefit.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 26, 2010)

I think the major point of this thread was suppose to be about not having individual access to make exchanges online but having to use a VOA. Points allocation really isn't a part of that equation. Somehow we allowed this thread to get highjacked back into the same old worn out arguements about the skim. What a shame.

To me, loss of the ability to make my own exchanges online and thus exchange my studio up to larger units is a deal breaker. I don't care how much money I might save on ala carte fee's, I don't want to deal with a VOA to make my exchanges. I know the system and don't require hand holding by someone who might misinterpret what I ask for and make an exchange I don't want. 

Until Marriott is able to correct this oversight, I'll keep my personal account and leave things well enough alone. I feel that I have until Dec. 31st under the current offer and I'll take all of that time if I feel it's necessary. If there is no online access or, if Marriott does some other move to prevent me from exchanging up, then I won't join. It's as simple as that for me.


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## DanCali (Jul 26, 2010)

Latravel said:


> Geez.  I've never seen so much consistent negativity towards a company from a poster.
> 
> Yes.  Marriott is making a profit - a big profit.  Did you expect them to take on this monumental effort, pay multi millions of dollars to very expensive consultants and lawyers, for free?  The skim is one part of the profit to cover costs and enhance the bottom line.
> 
> Since I own multiple timeshare weeks and have over a million reward points, i'm happy when this company is doing well.  They will offer more products, build more timeshares and buy more hotels - all to my benefit.



Sorry, you can't accuse me of "consistent negativity" when the majority of my posts concerning Marriott were positive pre-June 20.

If a company comes up with a great program where owners are happy they should be commended. Marriott had just that. But if they launch a points program that fleeces owners owners in manners no other developer does they should be called on it. Maybe having 5+ developer bought timeshares and a million MRPs is a reason to justify anything Marriott does - I wouldn't really know.

All I know is that every time we find a huge flaw with the program, it takes 1-2 weeks for us to say "it is what it is..." and just when we do that the next flaw gets uncovered. I was actually one of the skeptics when we uncovered that points were not really points, remember? Who knows what else is hidden under the hood?


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## DanCali (Jul 26, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> What is it that makes you think the pressure from VOA's, if there is any, will be so difficult for folks (especially TUGgers!) to resist?






Latravel said:


> The only pressure weeks owners may feel will be from salespeople trying to get us to buy more points so that if we exchange for points, we can get the prime weeks.  That is the job of salespeople, not the VOA.
> 
> From my years with Marriott, VOA's have never gotten involved with sales.  They are not salespeople....





Latravel said:


> I think this is another case of people worrying about nothing.  It would seem very weird and out of place to me if a VOA starts performing a sales function so I wouldn't worry about this.





Dean said:


> It's OK to disagree.  Marriott has never used the VOA's for such sales measures, I'm not expecting them to start now.



From the quote below (from the thread on July 26 reservation) it looks like Delicate Arch just for a sales pitch from a VOA. One can argue that it was also misleading since the VOA would likely not have conceeded that trust points cannot be combined with legacy points if Delicate Arch didn't raise the issue (which he likely learned from TUG).

Salaried employees or not, VOAs do act as salespeople. And they even use the same tactics too. Does anyone still think otherwise?



Delicate Arch said:


> After 2 hours of wait time, as an enrolled member, there were no 2BR at the new towers in Maui.
> 
> *I was also told that if I had purchased new beneficial interest points I would have access to the Maui weeks/days in the Trust, but as I only have enrolled points as part of the exchange program,  I only have access to "exchanged" properties.* I gently explained that if I had purchased an extra 1000 points, only those 1000 points would be eligible for reserving in the Trust, not my high enrolled member points. Oh yeah, she says, you are right about that.


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## Dean (Jul 26, 2010)

DanCali said:


> This is really not as complicated as you make it sound.
> 
> Yes, some people will allegedly save money on the program if you believe that Marriott will just let you trade weeks like you did in the past from the corporate II account without any consequences down the road. But those "savings" come at II's expense, not Marriott's. When someone enrolls Marriott will lose on some lockoff fees, and cancellation fees and split week fees weeks but that's about it (there are no exchange fees they are losing out on by allegedly giving an "all-you-can-eat fee" because that's II's loss). On the other hand owners now pay $165/$200 a year to Marriott. So is Marriott not clearly better off?
> 
> ...


I think the club fee is very simple, you're just choosing to count only one side of the ledger, there are 2.  If you assume you can dump your current II account and make one Marriott internal trade per year, that'll cover the fees right there.  As for the skim, I don't have enough info to know why Marriott did so and I suspect there are real reasons we don't truly know above simple greed.  I personally think it was a stupid approach, likely better to charge $6000 instead of $600 and keep the points simple, but that's not current reality and likely never will be going forward.

I would put the club fee of $169-199 as break even at best for Marriott given the specifics of the other waived fees that were previously budgeted items, included II account and additional costs inherent to the situation including exchanges.  Bluegreen charges $130 roughly and includes the RCI account but NO exchange fees and not even reduced fees.  DVC charges no club dues and reduced RCI exchange fees of $95 per but has very high maint fees.  I can't speak to Starwood or Wyndham, etc other than to say that you've got to look at the overall package.  In Marriott's case we know what you're getting and not getting extra for the fee, in the other cases, you really don't know how they have it broken down.  It's likely that the Starwood $109 doesn't cover all of the costs but only part of it.  I don't see the fee as unreasonable in the situation, you obviously do, so be it.  I realize that the fee is an increase for many, they can chose not to participate and avoid the fee if they want.



DanCali said:


> From the quote below (from the thread on July 26 reservation) it looks like Delicate Arch just for a sales pitch from a VOA. One can argue that it was also misleading since the VOA would likely not have conceeded that trust points cannot be combined with legacy points if Delicate Arch didn't raise the issue (which he likely learned from TUG).
> 
> Salaried employees or not, VOAs do act as salespeople. And they even use the same tactics too. Does anyone still think otherwise?


I see nothing in your quote that suggest a sales pitch from the VOA, only the realities of the system in question in response to specific questions.


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## DanCali (Jul 26, 2010)

Dean said:


> I see nothing in your quote that suggest a sales pitch from the VOA, only the realities of the system in question in response to specific questions.



Someone calls a VOA to make a points reservation exchange, doesn't get it, and the solution is: buy trust points! To me that sounds like a quote from a sales pitch... 

Not only that but does the suggestion that combining 1000 trust points with the legacy points gets direct access to the trust pool "reflect the realities of the system in question"? Or is it a blatant misrepresentation of how the system actually works (which is more appropriate to a typical Marriott sales pitch, rather than a VOA)?


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## Latravel (Jul 27, 2010)

But you stated the VOA's would put pressure on owners and that they would be compensated for sales.  I see no evidence of this practise from the paragraph you mentioned.


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## DanCali (Jul 27, 2010)

Latravel said:


> But you stated the VOA's would put pressure on owners and that they would be compensated for sales.  I see no evidence of this practise from the paragraph you mentioned.



Yes, I said that VOAs will try to convince people (or "pressure") to do points exchanges rather than II exchanges. Maybe they will be compensated for it somehow too - whether commissions or an "employee of the month award" but that part is neither here nor there. What I care about is that if I call to make an II exchange, I don't think it's appropriate for Marriott VOAs to convince people to convert to points since there is a clear conflict of interest; Marriott is better off if you convert to points (due to skim) that part is unequivocal.

In that context of that discussion regarding II exchanges several people made the comment VOAs are not sales people. In particular, you made the following comments and brought up the issue of how VOAs should not be selling points...



Latravel said:


> It would seem very weird and out of place to me if a VOA starts performing a sales function so I wouldn't worry about this.





Latravel said:


> The only pressure weeks owners may feel will be from salespeople trying to get us to buy more points so that if we exchange for points, we can get the prime weeks.  That is the job of salespeople, not the VOA.
> 
> From my years with Marriott, VOA's have never gotten involved with sales.  They are not salespeople.  I don't expect that to change since the sales model has not changed - just the product.



The example I gave in post #61 was of a tugger (Delicate Arch) who was called to make a points exchange and was solicited to buy more points to get the exchange he wanted. Whether or not that is "pressure" - that's debatable. Whether or not the VOA was putting on their salesperson hat (including lying, whether knowingly or not) is less debatable. In my view, this example violates everything you said above about VOAs. But if you think this kind of solicitation is ok for VOAs to perform then you should clarify that.

By the way, I'm not the one saying VOAs should not do this... From Marriott's perspective every interaction with a customer is an opportunity to sell. It's what a good company does... That is why we hear the "Join the Destination Club Enhancement" recording every time we call to speak with a weeks VOA these days. What I am saying is that this new system is now loaded with conflicts of interest and the opportunity to pitch/suggest small transactions like converting to points (skim profit for Marriott) or buying 1000 points packages. It'd be naive of us to think a VOA necessarily has our best interest in mind when they make a "suggestion," especially now that the DC has launched. And it's a shame they are classified as "Advisors".

As for VOAs suggesting/pressuring people to convert to points when they call to make an II exchange - it will happen. Just give it some time until people actually start using the II feature in the DC.


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## Dean (Jul 27, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Yes, I said that VOAs will try to convince people (or "pressure") to do points exchanges rather than II exchanges. Maybe they will be compensated for it somehow too - whether commissions or an "employee of the month award" but that part is neither here nor there. What I care about is that if I call to make an II exchange, I don't think it's appropriate for Marriott VOAs to convince people to convert to points since there is a clear conflict of interest; Marriott is better off if you convert to points (due to skim) that part is unequivocal.
> 
> In that context of that discussion regarding II exchanges several people made the comment VOAs are not sales people. In particular, you made the following comments and brought up the issue of how VOAs should not be selling points...
> 
> ...


My impression of your point was that you felt that the VOA's would be used directly in a sales process, personally I doubt that, but we'll see.  The post you quoted was not an example of a sales pitch but more of an explanation of what you could and could not do with various options.  There is no way to stretch the info you quoted to support VOA's are doing suggestive selling, IMO.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 27, 2010)

Dean said:


> My impression of your point was that you felt that the VOA's would be used directly in a sales process, personally I doubt that, but we'll see.  The post you quoted was not an example of a sales pitch but more of an explanation of what you could and could not do with various options.  There is no way to stretch the info you quoted to support VOA's are doing suggestive selling, IMO.



I personally don't think there will be direct selling by VOAs. But suggestive selling to convert to points will be where a little more pressure is laid. If a unit isn't available for instant II exchange, and is available with points, you will see the suggestive selling to convert to points or to even convert and wait-list if not available. Perhaps not right from the start, but it will creep in to the VOAs job responsibilities.


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## Dean (Jul 28, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I personally don't think there will be direct selling by VOAs. But suggestive selling to convert to points will be where a little more pressure is laid. If a unit isn't available for instant II exchange, and is available with points, you will see the suggestive selling to convert to points or to even convert and wait-list if not available. Perhaps not right from the start, but it will creep in to the VOAs job responsibilities.


I think the nature of their position will impinge on sales simply due to the realities of the situation.  However, I don't think we'll ever see them actively or even directly involved in a sales process, certainly not to the degree that we do with II and RCI (insurance, membership extensions, etc).


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