# Gave up on RCI trades, bought DVC



## elaine

After 5 great years of trading via RCI for DVC (1X 2BR July, 2X 1BR Easter, 2X 1BR Aug), we have given up relying on RCI and bought enough (resale) DVC points to stay in a 1BR for a week during holiday seasons.  Purchase price was more than all our other 4 TS resale purchases combined! But, after also staying offsite for a number of years (OLCC, Marriott, Starwood, HGVC), we know for our family that the convenience and other amenities offered by DVC was what worked for us. So, we sold our smaller DVC contract (for a nice profit after 8 years), and bought a larger DVC contract. Still hope to supplement with August RCI trades, but no longer have to roll the dice for Easter, Christmas, etc.
The Mouse got us! Elaine


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## peas

I can totally see how that happens.  I never underestimate the power of the mouse to extract money from our family.

Wishing you many happy holidays on site!


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## chriskre

Congrats Elaine.

I agree, the uncertainty of getting mouse time on site traps a lot of us.
I'm still trying to get exchanges but now if one comes thru I can cancel my DVC reservation and rent my points.  It's a win-win.  

And don't feel bad, the mouse got me for a new Poly contract too.


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## AnnaS

Congratulations Elaine!!!


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## AnnaS

chriskre said:


> And don't feel bad, the mouse got me for a new Poly contract too.



I know I congratulated you already  - but Congrats again!!! :whoopie:


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## chriskre

AnnaS said:


> I know I congratulated you already  - but Congrats again!!! :whoopie:



Thanks again.


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## bnoble

I keep going back and forth on this.  But, every time, I end up thinking that I'd rather stay offsite than pay the piper.  If I didn't have two kids that I have to send to college in the next several years, perhaps I'd feel differently. 

Heck, we even have a _non-Disney_ vacation planned for next year's Spring Break at Vistana Beach Club.  I have a well-aged OGS looking for a DVC 2BR for that week. If it hits, we'll switch.  But, if it doesn't, we'll still have a great time. That's my oldest's senior year of HS---we are also hoping to do a "last hurrah" with two weeks in Hawaii that summer.

This whole timesharing thing is rough!


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## chriskre

bnoble said:


> This whole timesharing thing is rough!



Not if you give into the pixie dust then it's easy.  

I don't have kids so I can appreciate how expensive they are.  
All that money I save on kids I can spend on buying from the mouse.
I think you've done better than most of us with the RCI mouse time so if it ain't broke why fix it.  

And I think you will enjoy Vistana.  
Contrary to what all my friends think, I do vacation at other places than the Mouse.  Jensen beach happens to be one of them.  
This little resort is really undervalued IMO.  But shhhh, don't tell RCI.  :ignore:


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## icydog

elaine said:


> After 5 great years of trading via RCI for DVC (1X 2BR July, 2X 1BR Easter, 2X 1BR Aug), we have given up relying on RCI and bought enough (resale) DVC points to stay in a 1BR for a week during holiday seasons.  Purchase price was more than all our other 4 TS resale purchases combined! But, after also staying offsite for a number of years (OLCC, Marriott, Starwood, HGVC), we know for our family that the convenience and other amenities offered by DVC was what worked for us. So, we sold our smaller DVC contract (for a nice profit after 8 years), and bought a larger DVC contract. Still hope to supplement with August RCI trades, but no longer have to roll the dice for Easter, Christmas, etc.
> The Mouse got us! Elaine



Congratulations Elaine! Where did you buy? Did you buy resale or from Disney? Did you get a good buy?   Again my heartfelt congrats to you!


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## elaine

We bought resale 160 AKV and sold 50 VWL. AKV price was decent, not rock bottom, but the lower end of the going rate, plus we got all 2014 points without paying annual fee for those. I also got a Dec UY, which was important to us. We sold VWL for $8 more PP than we bought 8 years ago. We also vacation other than WDW, but DVC just really works well for us. We like AKV the best and would almost always book value rooms. We also envision using AKV as a couple as empty nesters for a few weeks in the winter. 
What made us buy AKV now was pricing out a Christmas-NYE trip for next year with our 2 teens.  Traveling to Orlando and staying @ DVC was, by far, the most cost effective trip to the alternatives of travel to Caribbean and staying in TS or a cruise. 
Why DVC vs. other very nice TS in O (we have stayed at most of them)? We love the community halls and overall vibe/theme and in very crowded times, we want the buses and don't want to mess with driving from offsite, plus it lets our teens come/go as they please and stay out late without us having to drive back to get them at 1am. 
We will still trade in via RCI for any August trips, as I think 1BRs will still be quite plentiful, but honestly, the cost of trading and annual fee on my RCI points is a wash with the annual fees for DVC.  And, DVC is about the only TS that I feel fairly confident that I would get a decent return (at least 50% back) if I sell in the future. It's also an easy sale via a broker, so no hassle for me. Elaine


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## rickandcindy23

I enjoy staying offsite more than staying at the DVC resorts. We don't eat at Disney every meal (hardly any meals, really) 

I am a huge Disney fan, but staying onsite is so much more expensive than staying at the Marriott we love.  It's nice to have a second bedroom, now that we are older, because we can offer that room to any family member who wants to go.  This past November, we took my aunt to Disneyworld.  She is only two-and-a-half years older than the two of us, and she lost her husband last January.  It was fun to have her with us, and if I had gotten Disney 1 bedrooms, we couldn't have done it.  

We are nearly 60 and have kids and grandkids who love Disney and often go at the last minute.  Sometimes it's airfare drops, and sometimes it last-minute time off, or just a whim.  

I notice the entire TUG sightings section is becoming overwhelmed by Disney sightings.  I say keep it to yourself and don't spout the inventory all over the TUG sightings board.  It's a new revelation for me but it's getting old, all of the same old questions about trading power and such.  It's almost like we need a sticky about DVC exchanges and how much trading power is necessary to get the various seasons.  We should include how much more likely it is to get SSR than most of the other resorts, too  If you leave SSR off the search because you would never take it, prepare to stay offsite because SSR is the resort Disney drops into RCI more often, probably 30X more, as far as I can tell.

Two bedrooms are also very difficult, so you might have to put the kids on the sleep sofa and share a bathroom.  When people ask for information about trading power, we can say, "here is the sticky, knock yourself out reading all about it."


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## elaine

It was a very good run for 5 years! I have seen that it looks like DVC is depositing tons more SSR than in prior years. We always had at least SSR and OKW to choose from. Good thing that DH said maybe we should try SSR as it is so close to DTD.  We plan to use DVC next Easter for 2 studios @ AKV, so each kid (b/g) can bring a friend. We will have a Dad/Boys and Mom/Girls room.  Even a 2BR doesn't work for b/g teens with friends, unless Mom/Dad slept on the sofa (not).
I agree that a sticky would be good at the top of the DVc section.


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## luvsvacation22

elaine said:


> After 5 great years of trading via RCI for DVC (1X 2BR July, 2X 1BR Easter, 2X 1BR Aug), we have given up relying on RCI and bought enough (resale) DVC points to stay in a 1BR for a week during holiday seasons.  Purchase price was more than all our other 4 TS resale purchases combined! But, after also staying offsite for a number of years (OLCC, Marriott, Starwood, HGVC), we know for our family that the convenience and other amenities offered by DVC was what worked for us. So, we sold our smaller DVC contract (for a nice profit after 8 years), and bought a larger DVC contract. Still hope to supplement with August RCI trades, but no longer have to roll the dice for Easter, Christmas, etc.
> The Mouse got us! Elaine


 Congrats and Welcome Home! 



chriskre said:


> Congrats Elaine.
> 
> I agree, the uncertainty of getting mouse time on site traps a lot of us.
> I'm still trying to get exchanges but now if one comes thru I can cancel my DVC reservation and rent my points.  It's a win-win.
> 
> And don't feel bad, the mouse got me for a new Poly contract too.


Congrats on the Poly points! Enjoy!


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## chriskre

elaine said:


> We will still trade in via RCI for any August trips, as I think 1BRs will still be quite plentiful, but honestly, the cost of trading and annual fee on my RCI points is a wash with the annual fees for DVC.  And, DVC is about the only TS that I feel fairly confident that I would get a decent return (at least 50% back) if I sell in the future. It's also an easy sale via a broker, so no hassle for me. Elaine



Strategy you might want to try if you want a 2 bedroom at AKV is to book in Kidani a studio thru the club and then call DVC and ask them to try to coordinate with your 1 bedroom RCI exchange.  Many of the 2 bedrooms are lock offs in Kidani.

I agree with you on AKV.  It's my favorite DVC resort.
Now that Poly is in the mix it's going to be a tough call but split stays will definitely be in my future with a Poly-MK stay and then AK-AK park stay.  
Two vacations in one.   



luvsvacation22 said:


> Congrats on the Poly points! Enjoy!



Thanks.   I know it was a crazy expensive splurge but I can't take this
money with me so I'm spending it on the things I love.  :whoopie:


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## littlestar

Congrats!  We bought more resale DVC points last spring to book exactly what we want without trading.  Planning on splurging with a Grand Villa at OKW maybe in 2017 as I'm saving up DVC points to use for my nephew's honeymoon in Hawaii for 2016 right now.


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## chriskre

littlestar said:


> Congrats!  We bought more resale DVC points last spring to book exactly what we want without trading.  Planning on splurging with a Grand Villa at OKW maybe in 2017 as I'm saving up DVC points to use for my nephew's honeymoon in Hawaii for 2016 right now.



Awesome. 
I'm heading to Aulanai next year too Lord willing.
Haven't been to Hawaii in 30 years. 
Can't wait to do Hawaii with the Mouse.


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## TilleyGirl

*price to buy resale $*

Curious how much you can buy DVC on resale market? Bought non DVC resorts before but always wondered...


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## elaine

resale prices for DVC are sticker shock compared to other TS.  Bigger DVC points  (250+) contracts sell for less than smaller contracts. Contracts under 100 points command a premium. Points prices range from about $65ish to over $100 depending upon the DVC resort.  SSR and OKW are the lowest. We paid mid-range for AKV. Things to consider are whether last year's points are included and what the Use Year is. 
We have been using a 50 point DVC contract for a few nights here and there to supplement RCI trading into DVC for 5+ years, so we know the DVC product very well and were happy with the price/value for AKV.  We could have gotten more bang for our buck with SSR, but we plan to book AKV rooms @ 11 months out. Elaine


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## TilleyGirl

Thanks Elaine,

You are right that the pricing is more than picking up something from the bargain thread!  But, to have the knowledge is great since we are really debating what TS we are going to buy next.  We have tons of points in a combined deposit which won't allow us to exchange right into an Orlando DVC.  Your info is very appreciated!


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## elaine

DVC is an expensive product--both in purchase price and annual fees, but IMHO, it holds its value well, if bought resale. And, I if use DVC points, I don't have a $300 RCI fee--which works very well for shorter stays.  
We stayed for 10 years offsite @ OLCC, Marriotts, Starwood, and HGVC and had very good trips.  Everyone has their reasons for wanting DVC. For us, it was the community halls for the kids (not as much now), the nice food courts/restaurants, overall ambiance, but mainly the buses. Having teens able to stay late in a park and being able to safely come back to DVC on their own is a huge benefit to us. We also like not having to use our car (I commute to work).  For us, DVC was worth it, for others, maybe not--I was in that camp for many years. 
Also, I assume that you know you can rent DVC points to try out DVC? Look on disboards and mouseowners. Elaine


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## djohn06

Yeah those value rooms are fantastic!  You made a great choice.  Congrats!


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## got4boys

Congrats! I totally understand. We are huge off site people until my spouse wanted to stay at Bay Lake Tower. (after we saw it on a trip back then)

We were lucky that we bought a resale first at Old Key West (during the downturn after 2009) and purchased full priced Bay Lake Tower during the Black Friday Special in 2010. I squeezed an extra 10 points onto my contract and I am so glad I did. Even now after purchased at $97.20 per point, I've made my money back.

Yes, the mouse got us too. Since then, we've added more points (usually before DVC price increases). It is great with my kids when they can stay out as late as they want and get back to the room. 

I still do try to trade into it through RCI, but yes, we are settling on SSR and OKW and using our points during the Christmas/Holiday season. 

New Year's Eve has been great there and if you are there during New Year's Eve (we never go into the park on that day), it always amazes me when the traffic is stopped at the Magic Kingdom Parking Gates and people are turned away when they are coming off site (usually about 9 - 10 a.m.) due to capacity issues.


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## elaine

got4boys--what do  you recommend for NYE with teens 14/15?


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## got4boys

What we have been doing the last few year is spend December 30th at Magic Kingdom and basically try NOT due a park day on December 31st.

The New Year's Eve fireworks is the same on December 30th as the 31st at Magic Kingdom.

We stay up as late as we can on the 30th and on the 31st , let them sleep in.

Once they wake up, we go to Downtown Disney on the 31st - Splittsville or Disney Quest and enjoy the down time. 

If they want to do a park, we usually pick Animal Kingdom on New Year's Eve as the crowds are not as much there. My boys hate to wait. 

Last year, we went to Trail's End Buffet ($24.49 per person) for Dinner (late) and it takes the DVC discount - 10% off (Not Tables in Wonderland - blockout date) for New Year's Eve and not that expensive for a New Year's Eve dinner - even though it takes a boat ride to get there and afterwards we saw the Water Pageant and then New Year's Eve fireworks again.


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## lprstn

I love Disney and their resorts also - BUT - I've fell out of love with the cost of their ticket prices. 

I will be doing other things with the kiddos. Heck, at least their cruise prices have stayed somewhat stable. I'm glad my kids are older.


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## elaine

I agree--tickets are $$$. But, we have always "rationed" WDW tickets. We got 2 sets of no-expire tickets in 2005 and used them only for 2 park days and 1 DisneyQuest day for a week-long stay for many years. Then, last year, we got the DVC premium AP deal for $500 and will have gone to WDW 4X in 1 year--including 2 spring breaks. We will get 20+ park days out of them!  We did a combo of DVC stays, free Marriott rewards nights and RCI-DVC trades--our mega WDW year. Our next trip, I am getting my teens 5 day base tickets and DH and I will go in with them only 2 days (enough for us) from old tickets to save $.   
We really enjoy AKV and other activities at WDW and could spend a week not going into any parks.  We plan to use DVC more as a destination than a hotel for the parks in future years. 
LOL--I just priced out Disney Paris--way cheaper to let the kids get their Disney fix over the pond than in Orlando!


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## rfc0001

Great Thread!


elaine said:


> After 5 great years of trading via RCI for DVC (1X 2BR July, 2X 1BR Easter, 2X 1BR Aug), we have given up relying on RCI and bought enough (resale) DVC points to stay in a 1BR for a week during holiday seasons.  Purchase price was more than all our other 4 TS resale purchases combined! But, after also staying offsite for a number of years (OLCC, Marriott, Starwood, HGVC), we know for our family that the convenience and other amenities offered by DVC was what worked for us. So, we sold our smaller DVC contract (for a nice profit after 8 years), and bought a larger DVC contract. Still hope to supplement with August RCI trades, but no longer have to roll the dice for Easter, Christmas, etc.
> The Mouse got us! Elaine


Congrats and Welcome Home!  We are in the same boat as you -- we've traded into DVC via RCI 5 years; bought into DVC about 3 years ago.  Booking what we want when we want and knowing we have a backup ressie for the 1 week the kids have off is important.  We still have a OGS search for the same week, and have _no problem_ cancelling BLT or AKV through DVC for a RCI SSR ressie - love SSR and displacing the DVC points allows us to rent them @ $13/pt. -- more than pays _all_ our DVC MFs.


chriskre said:


> Congrats Elaine.
> 
> I agree, the uncertainty of getting mouse time on site traps a lot of us.
> I'm still trying to get exchanges but now if one comes thru I can cancel my DVC reservation and rent my points.  It's a win-win.
> 
> And don't feel bad, the mouse got me for a new Poly contract too.


I three bought resale DVC _and_ PVB direct and exchange into DVC with RCI -- it's the trifecta! 


bnoble said:


> I keep going back and forth on this.  But, every time, I end up thinking that I'd rather stay offsite than pay the piper.  If I didn't have two kids that I have to send to college in the next several years, perhaps I'd feel differently.
> 
> Heck, we even have a _non-Disney_ vacation planned for next year's Spring Break at Vistana Beach Club.  I have a well-aged OGS looking for a DVC 2BR for that week. If it hits, we'll switch.  But, if it doesn't, we'll still have a great time. That's my oldest's senior year of HS---we are also hoping to do a "last hurrah" with two weeks in Hawaii that summer.
> 
> This whole timesharing thing is rough!


I completely understand your wise financial choices.  DVC _is_ a luxury.  But like buying a luxury car, it's _totally worth it_.  I figure I only have 18 years to spend with my kids on family vacations, so I'm going to invest in that -- they can go to state school and work through college :-D


rickandcindy23 said:


> I enjoy staying offsite more than staying at the DVC resorts. We don't eat at Disney every meal (hardly any meals, really)
> 
> I am a huge Disney fan, but staying onsite is so much more expensive than staying at the Marriott we love.  It's nice to have a second bedroom, now that we are older, because we can offer that room to any family member who wants to go.  This past November, we took my aunt to Disneyworld.  She is only two-and-a-half years older than the two of us, and she lost her husband last January.  It was fun to have her with us, and if I had gotten Disney 1 bedrooms, we couldn't have done it.
> 
> We are nearly 60 and have kids and grandkids who love Disney and often go at the last minute.  Sometimes it's airfare drops, and sometimes it last-minute time off, or just a whim.
> 
> I notice the entire TUG sightings section is becoming overwhelmed by Disney sightings.  I say keep it to yourself and don't spout the inventory all over the TUG sightings board.  It's a new revelation for me but it's getting old, all of the same old questions about trading power and such.  It's almost like we need a sticky about DVC exchanges and how much trading power is necessary to get the various seasons.  We should include how much more likely it is to get SSR than most of the other resorts, too  If you leave SSR off the search because you would never take it, prepare to stay offsite because SSR is the resort Disney drops into RCI more often, probably 30X more, as far as I can tell.
> 
> Two bedrooms are also very difficult, so you might have to put the kids on the sleep sofa and share a bathroom.  When people ask for information about trading power, we can say, "here is the sticky, knock yourself out reading all about it."


Staying in the park for a week is a completely different experience than staying offsite. Everytime we leave after getting lost in wonderland for a week it is completely  jarring -- which is a good sign of a relaxing and enjoyable vacation.  We are at a different stage in our/kids lives, for sure, so understand it may be different for you.  Pre-kids we went to Hawaii every year, and after they are 18 will continue to do so (or move there), but now that we've built such a family tradition with Disney, I'm sure we'll continue to do so even when our girls are in college, and hopefully with grandkids.   I get it's over amplified on Sightings board -- I agree a separate forum or sticky for DVC posts would be a good idea, but I don't personally find it annoying (I know I'm the source for many of the posts, so I am biased).  Honestly, TUG is rather stagnant compared to most other Disney forums (MO and DIS) so without the Disney posts I wouldn't frequent here as much if at all.


chriskre said:


> Not if you give into the pixie dust then it's easy.
> 
> I don't have kids so I can appreciate how expensive they are.
> All that money I save on kids I can spend on buying from the mouse.
> I think you've done better than most of us with the RCI mouse time so if it ain't broke why fix it.
> 
> And I think you will enjoy Vistana.
> Contrary to what all my friends think, I do vacation at other places than the Mouse.  Jensen beach happens to be one of them.
> This little resort is really undervalued IMO.  But shhhh, don't tell RCI.  :ignore:


Pixie dust is a hell of a drug 


chriskre said:


> Strategy you might want to try if you want a 2 bedroom at AKV is to book in Kidani a studio thru the club and then call DVC and ask them to try to coordinate with your 1 bedroom RCI exchange.  Many of the 2 bedrooms are lock offs in Kidani.


Room requests for adjacent rooms _is extremely dicey_ -- Try for it sure, but would not recommend counting on this.


> I agree with you on AKV.  It's my favorite DVC resort.
> Now that Poly is in the mix it's going to be a tough call but split stays will definitely be in my future with a Poly-MK stay and then AK-AK park stay.
> Two vacations in one.


We love AKV too, but wouldn't buy there (sorry) -- it's a _huge_ resort and offsite -- the only thing sells out @ 7 mos. is Value and Concierge rooms.  Unless you need those, you don't need to own there.  I'd buy SSR for my money (and did).   BLT, VGF, and PVB are different stories -- and why I bought PVB -- to own MK resort we wanted to stay at.


> Thanks.   I know it was a crazy expensive splurge but I *can't take this money with me* so I'm spending it on the things I love.  :whoopie:


Amen *to that!*


chriskre said:


> Awesome.
> I'm heading to Aulanai next year too Lord willing.
> Haven't been to Hawaii in 30 years.
> Can't wait to do Hawaii with the Mouse.


We'll be heading to Aulani next summer as well!  I think we are DVC doppelgangers


TilleyGirl said:


> Curious how much you can buy DVC on resale market? Bought non DVC resorts before but always wondered...


Check out disneydvcresale.com -- it's a meta listing for all DVC resales.  Chepeast is VB @ $40/pt, but it has highest MFs, so total cost per point (purchase price/total points on contract --which vary by resort + MF/pt.) is _highest_ ($10+/pt).  Cheapest total cost per point is SSR @ $7/pt.  AUL (subsidized)/OKW (extended)/BLT are $7-$8.  AKV/AUL/VGC are $8-$9.  BWV/BCV/VWL/HHI are $9-$10.  Poly direct is $9.30/pt (keep in mind you are buying 50 years of points, so more point = higher upfront cost).  Renting same points is $12-$16 (with no upfront purchase cost) but less flexibility to book what you want when you want and rentals are prepaid so use it or lose it.  Booking direct from Disney is ~$24/pt. but refundable. 


elaine said:


> I agree--tickets are $$$. But, we have always "rationed" WDW tickets. We got 2 sets of no-expire tickets in 2005 and used them only for 2 park days and 1 DisneyQuest day for a week-long stay for many years. Then, last year, we got the DVC premium AP deal for $500 and will have gone to WDW 4X in 1 year--including 2 spring breaks. We will get 20+ park days out of them!  We did a combo of DVC stays, free Marriott rewards nights and RCI-DVC trades--our mega WDW year. Our next trip, I am getting my teens 5 day base tickets and DH and I will go in with them only 2 days (enough for us) from old tickets to save $.
> We really enjoy AKV and other activities at WDW and could spend a week not going into any parks.  We plan to use DVC more as a destination than a hotel for the parks in future years.
> LOL--I just priced out Disney Paris--way cheaper to let the kids get their Disney fix over the pond than in Orlando!


For us, we went all in and with our DVC APs average around $633/trip for AP cost, plus get 10% off drinks/snacks in merch stores with DVC, plus 20% off sit-down with TiW.  DVC and RCI are what make the cash flow affordable to do this 2-3 times a year.  Obviously with a big up front investment, but you only have 18 years of family vacations with your kids (lord willing), so it's worth every penny IMO.  I'll gladly die broke _and happy_.  It's doing both that's key. :-D


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## piyooshj

Very good, informative, and inspiring post. Got me thinking if I should purchase VGC.


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## rfc0001

piyooshj said:


> Very good, informative, and inspiring post. Got me thinking if I should purchase VGC.


There are very few cases where home resort advantage is truly needed -- VGC is one of them -- you _have_ to own there to book there when you want.  FYI, looking at the cheapest VGC contract out there (180 pts @ $127), doing the quick math on total cost per point it is $8 total cost per point on contract ($23,499 total cost incl. closing - $20 MFs due)/points remaining on contract (44 years x 180 - 176 borrowed) + MF/pt ($5.15) = $8.15/pt -- price you are paying in today's dollars for each point used this year.  That's not bad considering cheapest SSR is $7/pt.  Good luck!


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## Lborneke

Thank you for all of this information.  I do appreciate the insight that people are providing for this.  And nice to know that I am not the only one with these quesitons.


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## rfc0001

Lborneke said:


> Thank you for all of this information.  I do appreciate the insight that people are providing for this.  And nice to know that I am not the only one with these quesitons.


Sure, and good job doing your research and not jumping the gun.  I would also check out DVC News and MouseOwners for DVC specific forums -- tons of people to share their experience and information.

Russ


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## Lborneke

Perfect!  Thanks!


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## piyooshj

rfc0001 said:


> There are very few cases where home resort advantage is truly needed -- VGC is one of them -- you _have_ to own there to book there when you want.  FYI, looking at the cheapest VGC contract out there (180 pts @ $127), doing the quick math on total cost per point it is $8 total cost per point on contract ($23,499 total cost incl. closing - $20 MFs due)/points remaining on contract (44 years x 180 - 176 borrowed) + MF/pt ($5.15) = $8.15/pt -- price you are paying in today's dollars for each point used this year.  That's not bad considering cheapest SSR is $7/pt.  Good luck!



Had to read it twice, and went to the dvc-resales website link. Finally I got the math and apparently its not much more expensive than SSR over the life. Looks like VGC MFs are not high either. Looks like yearly MF will be around 927 + (any yearly club dues?). What kind of accommodation in what season can I expect for 180 points at VGC?


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## chriskre

piyooshj said:


> Had to read it twice, and went to the dvc-resales website link. Finally I got the math and apparently its not much more expensive than SSR over the life. Looks like VGC MFs are not high either. Looks like yearly MF will be around 927 + (any yearly club dues?). What kind of accommodation in what season can I expect for 180 points at VGC?



There are no "club" dues with DVC.
It's included in your MF's.  
There are no booking or guest certificate fees either.
DVC is expensive to buy into but doesn't nickel and dime you to death, at least not at this time.  Who knows what the future holds.  :ignore:
You can see a points calculator at www.dvcbyrequest.com to see how many points you will need for any time you are considering.


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## rfc0001

VGC historical MFs _are_ low but it's average % increases in MFs are one of the highest (3.5% above inflation vs. average of 1% above inflation).  Keep in mind the differences in MFs are baked into the cost using the formula above, so it's the % increases not the absolute amount that will increase you cost from there.

Point Charts:
The Villas at Disney's Grand Californian Hotel & Spa (2015)
The Villas at Disney's Grand Californian Hotel & Spa (2016)


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## piyooshj

I gave a second thought. Since I expect 10% return on my money. So $25,000 of upfront cost equals $2,500 plus $1000 MF equals total of 3500 per year. This is assuming I am able to sell back the contract at the purchase price.

Everyone will have their own opinion I am having hard time justifying this cost, while I am not sure if I'd want to go to Disney every year. I will stick with RCI exchange and/or renting from owner camp (VGC may be out of luck).


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## elaine

We could not justify the cost either for almost 10 years. But, for us, we weighed the capital outlay against the  cost of alternative vacations for this Christmas and other holidays. FYI--this year, we decided we would do a larger space (1BR, b/c we had an extra year of points), good thing, as value and even standard studios are booked up--thus we needed the 11 month booking window.
1-We could have rented DVC for $2500, but then we are locked into a reservation.  We want the flex to change/cancel. I already owned DVC, so I could have gotten a transfer of points to control booking, but we anticipate using AKV for many years, so we would need yearly transfers. 
2-Cruise--that was $7k+ for Christmas.
3-Fly to Carib and stay in a TS trade. Airfare is usually $800 PP, plus maintenance fees cost of about $1000 for the unit traded.
So, after reviewing alternatives, and deciding if in Orlando, we wanted to be at DVC for reasons previously stated, we decided it was worth the capital outlay to us.


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## Beefnot

I wonder at what point during the life of the RTU period that prices will begin to collapse.  DVC resorts aren't deeded, so I would expect that there will inevitably be a correction to the euphoric rise in resale prices as expiration approaches.


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## piyooshj

Beefnot said:


> I wonder at what point during the life of the RTU period that prices will begin to collapse.  DVC resorts aren't deeded, so I would expect that there will inevitably be a correction to the euphoric rise in resale prices as expiration approaches.



Good question. It like long term option in equity market. They will hold their value for relatively some time and then a time will come when a steep decline will start.....else wait for recession....people will stop paying these exhorbitant 105 per day per person ticket and stop visiting parks and DVC resorts will stay empty....and eventually resale prices will collapse...hahaha


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## rfc0001

piyooshj said:


> I gave a second thought. Since I expect 10% return on my money. So $25,000 of upfront cost equals $2,500 plus $1000 MF equals total of 3500 per year. This is assuming I am able to sell back the contract at the purchase price.
> 
> Everyone will have their own opinion I am having hard time justifying this cost, while I am not sure if I'd want to go to Disney every year. I will stick with RCI exchange and/or renting from owner camp (VGC may be out of luck).


10% ROI _relative to renting_ is going to be tough with current resale prices.  The trick (as with all investments) is to buy low, sell high -- wait a year or two and things will invert,.  That said, relative to direct booking, resale is easily in the 20s ROI.  The only true equivalent to owning DVC is booking direct (booking what you want when you want).  If you are fine renting direct from DVC members then owning may not be worth it (if you truly are going to invest your money you would have bought DVC with and truly earn 10% for 38 years consecutively).  I doubt any of these factors are true for 99% of people -- stock market is at an all time high and is going down, not up in the mid term, and most people don't hassle with renting direct from DVC members -- especially if it's more expensive than buying resale (even a the current prices).  People would rather have more control and flexibility.


Beefnot said:


> I wonder at what point during the life of the RTU period that prices will begin to collapse.  DVC resorts aren't deeded, so I would expect that there will inevitably be a correction to the euphoric rise in resale prices as expiration approaches.


DVC should straight-line deprecate to zero over 50 years of contract.  That's expected, and has nothing to do with the savings you get (over booking direct/renting) by buying.  Sure, it's an added bonus that you can sell for more than you bought right now, but that's not really providing any value if you don't sell -- nor will it hurt your value you when the opposite is true





piyooshj said:


> Good question. It like long term option in equity market. They will hold their value for relatively some time and then a time will come when a steep decline will start.....else wait for recession....people will stop paying these exhorbitant 105 per day per person ticket and stop visiting parks and DVC resorts will stay empty....and eventually resale prices will collapse...hahaha


I disagree.  Disney has raised prices consistently over the years and has _never_ lowered prices for accommodations or tickets.  The world is globalizing, an there still is only one original Disney World, so organic demand will continue to rise despite fluxuations in the economy.  As Disney accommodations go up in price, so does the value of DVC (which is the difference between direct rates and what you paid for DVC), therefore resale prices go up accordingly.  However, the same is not true for DVC MFs, which have only gone up 1% per year above inflation since DVC's inception -- so DVC is a great hedge against increases in Disney direct prices, whereas renting is pegged to Disney direct prices -- e.g. a couple years ago brokers were paying out $10/pt. based on demand -- today they are paying out $11.75, and still can't meet their demand.  Renting/direct prices will continue to rise whereas DVC cost (MFs) remain steady.


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## chriskre

Beefnot said:


> I wonder at what point during the life of the RTU period that prices will begin to collapse.  DVC resorts aren't deeded, so I would expect that there will inevitably be a correction to the euphoric rise in resale prices as expiration approaches.



Disney will just extend the contract like they did with OKW and charge current owners for the privilege.  
Poly resort is almost 50 years old and they are selling 50 year contracts there.
They will just fix up the old buildings by remodeling and sell them again.


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## Beefnot

chriskre said:


> Disney will just extend the contract like they did with OKW and charge current owners for the privilege.
> Poly resort is almost 50 years old and they are selling 50 year contracts there.
> They will just fix up the old buildings by remodeling and sell them again.



Sure, but they will charge full freight. What you are saying is beside my point.  At some point the depreciation of pricing will necessarily accelerate as expiration approaches.


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## Southerngirl528

Actually DVC memberships ARE deeded, just not for perpetuity. They can be willed or sold. Each resort has a 50 year "clock" when it opens. I bought DVC in 1993 and have added on 4 times and truly LOVE my membership.

In the last year I have done a Grand Villa that sleeps 12 at OKW for a week (rack rate on that was $1443/night pre-taxes for the off season which we reserved), 6 nights in an Ocean View 1 bdrm villa at Aulani the end of this January (per Aulani's website that price ranged from $4900 to $6100 for our dates and room type). A year ago February I took the little princesses on a surprise 4 night cruise on the Dream. Other than paying cash for one child for the cruise, all this was done on a little less than 2 years points that I own. 

I like to see what I would have been out of pocket for the exact same dates/accomodations and though my dues aren't cheap per year on about 500pts/yr, I find the value of what I can get on my points still FAR exceeds the cost of ownership. Prices have gone up a lot over the years, but my membership paid for itself in about 6-7 years.


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## bnoble

> Disney will just extend the contract like they did with OKW and charge current owners for the privilege.


I'm not so sure.  The process was very messy, and I think the uptake was a lot lower than Disney expected.  They haven't extended the offer to any of the other 2042 resorts, and I suspect they won't.  I suspect they will renovate and re-sell as "new."


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## rfc0001

bnoble said:


> I'm not so sure.  The process was very messy, and I think the uptake was a lot lower than Disney expected.  They haven't extended the offer to any of the other 2042 resorts, and I suspect they won't.  I suspect they will renovate and re-sell as "new."


I think they may have treated OKW differently since it's the only off-park location of the 2042 resorts (OKW, BCV, BWV, VWL, HHI, VB).  They won't have any problem reselling the others, but OKW may be challenging given the trend and popularity of park resorts (VGF, PVB).  So, they may have been trying to prolong it's expiration to avoid this.  I'm not sure why it wasn't popular -- DVC members were getting the better end of that deal.  OKW (extended) is a great resale value -- next to SSR it's the best resale value.


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## JimMIA

rfc0001 said:


> I'm not sure why it wasn't popular -- DVC members were getting the better end of that deal.


I can only offer our perspective as an OKW owner who received, and rejected, the extension offer.

To us, it was a simple question of whether I wanted to pay $15 per point for points I would not receive until 2042.  At the time, we had 310 OKW points, so the extension would have cost us $4,650.  

The answer was a VERY easy no.  I saw no sense in paying $4,650 for points I would not be able to use for 30 years, or whatever.

IF I had wanted to put $4,000 more into DVC points, I would have bought a resale contract with points I could use immediately and for many years in the future -- not something I would only be able to use for a few years MANY years in the future.

To me, the extension offer was almost laughable.


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## rfc0001

JimMIA said:


> I can only offer our perspective as an OKW owner who received, and rejected, the extension offer.
> 
> To us, it was a simple question of whether I wanted to pay $15 per point for points I would not receive until 2042.  At the time, we had 310 OKW points, so the extension would have cost us $4,650.
> 
> The answer was a VERY easy no.  I saw no sense in paying $4,650 for points I would not be able to use for 30 years, or whatever.
> 
> IF I had wanted to put $4,000 more into DVC points, I would have bought a resale contract with points I could use immediately and for many years in the future -- not something I would only be able to use for a few years MANY years in the future.
> 
> To me, the extension offer was almost laughable.


I understand your explanation, but don't understand the reasoning.  $15/point is $1/point on contract.  OKW in 1991 cost $2/point on contract (adjusted for inflation).  So, they were offering OKW points at half the cost of your original points.  That is the absolute cheapest any individual DVC point has every sold direct or resale.  So, even if _you_ don't use them they should have more value than they cost, which should be reflected in the resale value over time, especially with OKW depreciates to $0 in 2040 (the last UY) -- actually probably long before that as the closing costs will outweigh any value they may have.


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## JimMIA

rfc0001 said:


> I understand your explanation, but don't understand the reasoning.


Huh?


> $15/point is $1/point on contract.  OKW in 1991 cost $2/point on contract (adjusted for inflation).  So, they were offering OKW points at half the cost of your original points.  That is the absolute cheapest any individual DVC point has every sold direct or resale.  So, even if _you_ don't use them they should have more value than they cost, which should be reflected in the resale value over time, especially with OKW depreciates to $0 in 2040 (the last UY) -- actually probably long before that as the closing costs will outweigh any value they may have.


Points purchased in 1991 could be used in 1992 and every year thereafter for 50 years.  

Extended points are worthless until 2042, and then only good for 15 years.  

Those are not time periods which are equivalent in any respect -- 50 years from today does NOT equal 15 years starting 30 years from now.  Sorry, it just doesn't.

The minimum permissible purchase in 1991 was 230 points @ $51 = $11,730.  For that expenditure, you would have received 230 points, every year for 50 years, for a total of 11,500 points.  $11,730 divided by 11,500 points = *$1.02 per point*...not $2.00

AND...the points would have been available IMMEDIATELY, and every year thereafter.

The extension would have cost $15 X 230 = $3,450.  You would have the use of ZERO points for about 30 years, and then the use of 230 points for 15 years.  That's $1 per point ONLY if you ignore the time value of money, AND ignore the fact that you have no points for 30 years -- which is a fool's bet.


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## bnoble

> $15/point is $1/point on contract.


$15/point for points that don't even come to you for 30 years.  Again, you are completely ignoring the time-value of money.  If you honestly believe that those points cost just $1/year, presumably you'd be wiling to give me $15 (or $15,000) today, and have me just give you back that $15 (or $15,000) 30 years from now, and we'd call it square.

I know we've had this discussion before---more than once---but you continue to be just plain wrong here.  Of course, if you disagree, my "$15K for 30 years" offer stands.


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## rfc0001

JimMIA said:


> Huh?
> Points purchased in 1991 could be used in 1992 and every year thereafter for 50 years.
> 
> Extended points are worthless until 2042, and then only good for 15 years.
> 
> Those are not time periods which are equivalent in any respect -- 50 years from today does NOT equal 15 years starting 30 years from now.  Sorry, it just doesn't.


I'm not saying it makes good financial sense to buy DVC, but if you paid $1.87 (in current dollars) for _every point on the contract_ in 1991 -- _for points 30-50 years out_ then, then paying $1.09 in 2008 (in current dollars) for points 30-35 years should have made even more sense.  If the former made sense, so should the latter.  Is it a lousy 6% ROI above inflation -- yes.  Both are true.


> The minimum permissible purchase in 1991 was 230 points @ $51 = $11,730.  For that expenditure, you would have received 230 points, every year for 50 years, for a total of 11,500 points.  $11,730 divided by 11,500 points = *$1.02 per point*...not $2.00


Presale was $49 for 50 points on contract = $0.98/point on contract = $1.87 in todays dollars.


> AND...the points would have been available IMMEDIATELY, and every year thereafter.
> 
> The extension would have cost $15 X 230 = $3,450.  You would have the use of ZERO points for about 30 years, and then the use of 230 points for 15 years.  That's $1 per point ONLY if you ignore the time value of money, AND ignore the fact that you have no points for 30 years -- which is a fool's bet.





bnoble said:


> $15/point for points that don't even come to you for 30 years.  Again, you are completely ignoring the time-value of money.  If you honestly believe that those points cost just $1/year, presumably you'd be wiling to give me $15 (or $15,000) today, and have me just give you back that $15 (or $15,000) 30 years from now, and we'd call it square.
> 
> I know we've had this discussion before---more than once---but you continue to be just plain wrong here.  Of course, if you disagree, my "$15K for 30 years" offer stands.


I'm not ignoring the time value of money.  The time value of money for points 30-45 years out in 1991 is the _exact same equation_ as the time value of money calculation for point 30-45 years out from 2008.  The only difference is you paid $1.87 per point (in 1991, in current dollars) for the fomer and $1.09 (in 2008, in current dollars) for the latter.  If the former was a good deal (big if), so should the latter.  I'm not ignoring the time value of money -- it's just the same in both cases.

For illustration, DVC currently sells for $3.23/pt.  DVC prices have has increased 2.5% per year _above inflation_ since 1991 ($1.87 to $3.23 today).  So, if DVC offered you to extend a contract today for $1 per point starting in 30 years, you could either buy that point now for $1 or wait 30 years and buy it for $6.77 (3.23$ with 2.5% increase above inflation for 30 years).  That is the equivalent of 6-7% ROI -- every year for 30 years.  And the that's just the ROI on the $1 -- the total ROI is whatever Disney direct prices are in 30 years over whatever that $1 is worth in 30 years -- which is a heck of a lot more than 7%.   Keep in mind your original purchase of OKW in 1991 only appreciated 2.5% in value per year relative to the current price of DVC.  So, if 7% is a bad deal, then 2.5% surely is a bad deal -- which was and is my point.  I'm not trying to say DVC is or isn't a bad deal, just that this cost per point is a _relatively_ good deal to an original purchase of OKW (or any current purchase resale).  That's a completely different question than is DVC worth it or did _you_ even want/need the extra points.  If you didn't need the points don't buy them, fine -- but the stated reason that it as because they were "laughable" doesn't follow the math -- if DVC made sense in 1991 @ $1.87/pt. it should makes sense in 2008 @ $1.09 per point, especially given the cost of Disney direct prices (which DVC value is relative too) greatly exceeds inflation or any relative investment you could plug into a NPV calculation.


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## djohn06

I see both points (Jim and Russ).

It's tough to buy anything today that you cannot use until 30 years later.  If you wanted points, you would want them for today's usage not in a safety glass case that you couldn't touch for a very long time.

But, with the benefit of hindsight, the deal Disney offered $15 a point on 310 points really isn't a bad deal.  One could justify the extension by saying I can sell 2 years of points today at 7 pp profit and that would pay for the extra years and I feel like I paid nothing for it.


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## djohn06

I see both points (Jim and RFC)

It's tough to buy anything today that you cannot use until 30 years later.  If you wanted points, you would want them for today's usage not in a safety glass case that you couldn't touch for a very long time.

But, with the benefit of hindsight, the deal Disney offered $15 a point on 310 points really isn't a bad deal.  One could justify the extension by saying I can sell 2 years of points today at 7 pp profit and that would pay for the extra years and then feel like I paid nothing for it.


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## JimMIA

rfc0001 said:


> Presale was $49 for 50 points on contract


Not sure where you got that.  Everything I've seen says presale was $48 with a minimum purchase of 230 points.  

There weren't any smaller contracts until much later, and there would not have been any small add-ons because there were no DVC owners to purchase add ons.

Not that the number of points matters at all.  Price per point is price per point, regardless of the size of the contract.  And if you use $48 instead of the initial $51 I used, it weakens your argument a tiny bit rather than helping it.

Regardless of how we do the math, I think we'll have to agree to disagree about the wisdom of the OKW extension offer.  I declined it for the reasons outlined above.  Apparently you purchased it for the reasons you gave.  If so, enjoy!


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## rfc0001

JimMIA said:


> Not sure where you got that.  Everything I've seen says presale was $48 with a minimum purchase of 230 points.
> 
> There weren't any smaller contracts until much later, and there would not have been any small add-ons because there were no DVC owners to purchase add ons.


It may have been $48 -- I was going off the top of my head, but I did look this up and calculate inflation using the official government BLS tables at one point, so suffice it to say the $1.87 per point on contract is accurate.  I'm not talking about points purchased, I'm saying _per point_ purchased you paid $48 and got 50 points _on contract_ -- so regardless of how many points you bought, each "point" you purchased cost $48 for 50 _points on contract_ cost you $1.87 (in today's dollars), including points 50 years out.


> Not that the number of points matters at all.  Price per point is price per point, regardless of the size of the contract.  And if you use $48 instead of the initial $51 I used, it weakens your argument a tiny bit rather than helping it.


Correct -- I'm using the actual number not a number to win my argument.  The actual number is $1.87/point on contract is what you paid presale in 1991 -- including for points 30-50 years out.  In 2008, Disney made the offer for points 30-45 years out for $1.09 (adjusted for inflation).  It's apples to apples.


> Regardless of how we do the math, I think we'll have to agree to disagree about the wisdom of the OKW extension offer.  I declined it for the reasons outlined above.  Apparently you purchased it for the reasons you gave.  If so, enjoy!


I appreciate your perspective -- obviously many people did exactly what you did, so you aren't alone.  Honestly, I think most people didn't want/need 65 years of points, so rationalized why it was a bad deal.  The reality is it's the lowest cost per individual point Disney has every offered or has been available resale.  For reference, the cost per point currently is $3.23 -- including points 30-50 years out.  $1 is simply, by comparison, a very good deal.  I didn't take that deal, since I wasn't a DVC owner then and am not an OKW owner, but would have taken it (and will if the same offer is made again).  The reality is 99% of DVC owners never calculate the true value of their investment, which is why this offer failed IMO :ignore:.


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## stanleyu

Most likely they will renovate an expiring resort and offer it for sale both ways - as an extension at a discount to existing owners and as a new contract for those units where extensions are rejected. Disney loves DVC owners. If they didn't they would be building more hotels, not DVC units. And the easiest way to sell is to existing owners, hence the discount. The problem with OKW is that they offered it much to early. They have to wait until the end date is only a year or two away.


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