# Cancel-rebook strategy



## jaygould (Apr 9, 2015)

If I want to make a one-week Wyndham reservation in prime time for my own use 10 months ahead and do a successful cancel-rebook on it when I get within two months of the reservation time, will I have a better chance of success if I make the reservation as two separate reservations (one three-day res and one four-day res) instead of a single seven-day reservation?


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## 55plus (Apr 9, 2015)

Only cancel and rebook if you can afford to lose the reservation, so have a backup plan. If you cancel a split reservation you have to cancel each one separately and then rebook. Either way it is risky. We personally do not play the game of cancel and rebook.


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## ronparise (Apr 9, 2015)

I dont see how making a 3 night and a 4 night reservation improves your odds of success

If I plan on doing a cancel and rebook I make two identical reservations. at 10 or 13 months Inside of 60 days I cancel and attempt a rebook,  If successful I cancel the other reservation. If not successful at least I have a place to stay using the first reservation. 

The way I maximize my savings is to make 2 two bedroom reservations and a studio. I cancel and rebook the studio and then cancel a two bedroom and upgrade the studio into it.  If it works I have a 2 bedroom at half the studio rate.  and cancel the extra two bedroom and the studio.  If I screw it up at least I have a two bedroom (at full price)  for my vacation. 

There is still a danger doing this,especially towars the end of the year. You can generate a lot of cancelled points, that you have to have a use for. by the end of the year


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## Sandy VDH (Apr 9, 2015)

Not mention this ties up a lot of points.  If you do not the points for holding the 3 reservations in the first place, that is a challenge.  Probably not an issues with Ron, but with us poor relatives that don't have MMs of points, it could be an issue.


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## Sandi Bo (Apr 9, 2015)

I suspect that booking as 3 + 4 might increase your odds of success, especially if you buy into the theory that there are bots searching for and grabbing prime reservations (which I do).

Again, just theorizing, even a bot can only search for certain parameters, and I would guess they would look for 7 nights. 

I could be wrong, but I agree with OP's train of thought.   If it's for yourself, GC's don't matter, so why not do it?  You can still back it up, etc, as Ron suggested.  Just make everything 3 + 4's.


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## ecwinch (Apr 10, 2015)

jimfisk - I have often wondered the same thing. But at the end of the day, I figured that I could cancel my 7 day reservation, and then rebook it according to whatever larger units are available (I am assuming you are going for a pts discount + unit upgrade).

The other thing I am doing is booking a "it would be nice" vacation early in the use year (Jan for me).  Knowing that my cancelled points can then be used on a late year reservation (Oct-Dec).  That allows me to do what Ron suggested - book both size units. I know that will not work for everyone.


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## ronparise (Apr 10, 2015)

Sandi Bo said:


> I suspect that booking as 3 + 4 might increase your odds of success, especially if you buy into the theory that there are bots searching for and grabbing prime reservations (which I do).
> 
> Again, just theorizing, even a bot can only search for certain parameters, and I would guess they would look for 7 nights.
> 
> I could be wrong, but I agree with OP's train of thought.   If it's for yourself, GC's don't matter, so why not do it?  You can still back it up, etc, as Ron suggested.  Just make everything 3 + 4's.



If I had a bot, Id be searching for weekends. and the point of this is to get the high demand reservations at a discount.  If the reservation is available inside the 60 day window, its not high demand,  and you dont need to play the game


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## am1 (Apr 26, 2015)

The bots are expanding to new resorts.  Anyone trying to get last minute reservations at peak times at popular resorts are going to be disappointed every time now. 

Everyone should consider this unacceptable and complain to Wyndham.  It is an easy fix as well as very easy to find out who is behind this and block their online access or more.


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## ronparise (Apr 26, 2015)

am1 said:


> The bots are expanding to new resorts.  Anyone trying to get last minute reservations at peak times at popular resorts are going to be disappointed every time now.
> 
> Everyone should consider this unacceptable and complain to Wyndham.  It is an easy fix as well as very easy to find out who is behind this and block their online access or more.



I would agree but I dont think that stopping the bots (if they exist)  will make any difference for the low supply/ high demand reservations.  A regular guy looking for one of these withing 30 days wont find one anyway

My point is that the only cancellations for the low supply / high demand reservations are VIP owners doing the cancel and re book thing. The bots (if they exist) are grabbing these cancellations before the VIP can rebook. If Wyndham closes down the bots. It  will make life easier for me and maybe you, because we will be able to re book our cancellations.  but they will never sit there long enough for a regular owner to get one. unless they are very lucky. 

And if Wyndham manages to shut down the cancel and rebook thing, It still wont make a difference...We  just wont cancel at all.


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## am1 (Apr 26, 2015)

What about the times when there are a change in plans, someone canceling and rebooking is done with the reservation or an amateur tries to cancel and rebook.  Those would be open to everyone but with the bots they are not.  

If no one complains nothing gets done.  

If the bots are not doing this to resorts in the bayou maybe its time to make a go of it there. lol


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## ronparise (Apr 26, 2015)

am1 said:


> What about the times when there are a change in plans, someone canceling and rebooking is done with the reservation or an amateur tries to cancel and rebook.  Those would be open to everyone but with the bots they are not.
> 
> If no one complains nothing gets done.
> 
> If the bots are not doing this to resorts in the bayou maybe its time to make a go of it there. lol



The regular guys wont see the cancellations because folks like me without bots are on the computer nearly 24/7 And regarding Bots in the Bayou....im working on it. But do you know how much those computer guys get paid?  Im able to make enough on my reservations that the discount isnt needed anyway


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## chadwill (Apr 26, 2015)

am1 said:


> What about the times when there are a change in plans, someone canceling and rebooking is done with the reservation or an amateur tries to cancel and rebook.  Those would be open to everyone but with the bots they are not.
> 
> If no one complains nothing gets done.
> 
> If the bots are not doing this to resorts in the bayou maybe its time to make a go of it there. lol



I was able to cancel and rebook high demand low supply beach reservations this week with the help of the wyndham vacation consultant. I would consider this an option. If there is a bot it could be Wyndham grabbing a reservation because of a shortage of available rooms. The only summer reservation I didn't try was bonnet creek for a variety of reasons. I want the opportunities To try cancel and rebook but we should all remember there is no guarantee the reservation will reappear or that someone isn't searching for the same reservation with a quick finger.


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## am1 (Apr 26, 2015)

If it is Wyndham taking the inventory then it never comes back at all.  If its bots it comes in for a spit second but is gone when you click on it.

There is no guarantee but we should not be subjected to competing with bots to get reservations.

adam



chadwill said:


> I was able to cancel and rebook high demand low supply beach reservations this week with the help of the wyndham vacation consultant. I would consider this an option. If there is a bot it could be Wyndham grabbing a reservation because of a shortage of available rooms. The only summer reservation I didn't try was bonnet creek for a variety of reasons. I want the opportunities To try cancel and rebook but we should all remember there is no guarantee the reservation will reappear or that someone isn't searching for the same reservation with a quick finger.


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## bnoble (Apr 26, 2015)

> The regular guys


I confess: as one of those "regular guys" I don't get too worked up about this either way.

What I *would* like to see is a WM-style waitlist, but I think that might be DOA.


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## Bigrob (Apr 26, 2015)

bnoble said:


> I confess: as one of those "regular guys" I don't get too worked up about this either way.
> 
> What I *would* like to see is a WM-style waitlist, but I think that might be DOA.



Not sure I'd call it DOA. I keep hearing it is something they are trying to implement. 

Back to the OPs original question... for a cancel rebook to be most successful, you want to include an upgrade as Ron mentioned. If you segment your reservations as 4+3, there is a higher probability of additional "in between" units for your upgrade. As a recent example - I had a reservation that was a split reservation, 4/3. I wanted to cancel and rebook it so I could use just one guest confirmation. However, there was significant inventory for the 4 part of the reservation, but the 3 part (weekend) was sold out. So it worked better for me to book it as a (split reservation but altogether) 7 night reservation. The tricky part is dropping all the piece parts and getting the timing just right, because I had to do the upgrade at booking time, because if I upgraded after, I would only have been able to upgrade one of them to the size I needed.

And this was at a location where bots have been operating, so I think I just got lucky.


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## am1 (Apr 26, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> Not sure I'd call it DOA. I keep hearing it is something they are trying to implement.
> 
> Back to the OPs original question... for a cancel rebook to be most successful, you want to include an upgrade as Ron mentioned. If you segment your reservations as 4+3, there is a higher probability of additional "in between" units for your upgrade. As a recent example - I had a reservation that was a split reservation, 4/3. I wanted to cancel and rebook it so I could use just one guest confirmation. However, there was significant inventory for the 4 part of the reservation, but the 3 part (weekend) was sold out. So it worked better for me to book it as a (split reservation but altogether) 7 night reservation. The tricky part is dropping all the piece parts and getting the timing just right, because I had to do the upgrade at booking time, because if I upgraded after, I would only have been able to upgrade one of them to the size I needed.
> 
> And this was at a location where bots have been operating, so I think I just got lucky.



I would say very lucky after all that you wrote.


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## ronparise (Apr 26, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> Not sure I'd call it DOA. I keep hearing it is something they are trying to implement.
> 
> Back to the OPs original question... for a cancel rebook to be most successful, you want to include an upgrade as Ron mentioned. If you segment your reservations as 4+3, there is a higher probability of additional "in between" units for your upgrade. As a recent example - I had a reservation that was a split reservation, 4/3. I wanted to cancel and rebook it so I could use just one guest confirmation. However, there was significant inventory for the 4 part of the reservation, but the 3 part (weekend) was sold out. So it worked better for me to book it as a (split reservation but altogether) 7 night reservation. The tricky part is dropping all the piece parts and getting the timing just right, because I had to do the upgrade at booking time, because if I upgraded after, I would only have been able to upgrade one of them to the size I needed.
> 
> And this was at a location where bots have been operating, so I think I just got lucky.



and all of this to save $99


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## Bigrob (Apr 26, 2015)

ronparise said:


> and all of this to save $99



I had a backup. And those $99 charges add up, as you know.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 26, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> I had a backup. And *those $99 charges add up*, as you know.



Yes, we keep paying those $99 fees  ,,, but Wyndham is just loving how that is PRINTING much bigger bank statements for them --- all for doing NOTHING on their part.


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## am1 (Apr 26, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> Yes, we keep paying those $99 fees  ,,, but Wyndham is just loving how that is PRINTING much bigger bank statements for them --- all for doing NOTHING on their part.



Right.  

Why the need for an extra $99 fee if the name needs to be changed on the reservation.  Who knows who will be arriving first 13 months from now?  

Or if the guest decides they want to add an extra night or they were looking for the extra night and it finally becomes available.  

Or a larger unit becomes available for a non vip or the vip already did an upgrade.  

Apparently this is what the owners wanted.  Most owners just take betting pushed around as the way it goes.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 26, 2015)

I remember the $29 GC and the unlimited VIP Platinum FREE GCs ...it was not that long, long ago ... in a computer system from a different universe ... 

Same crappy system except you had to CALL IN for your guest to be added ... 

Same crappy system as NOW when you call in to add a guest, the fee is $129... see same system. :hysterical:


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## ronparise (Apr 26, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> I had a backup. And those $99 charges add up, as you know.



boy o boy...I sure do  Ive already used the 90 I get included with my Platinum accounts, and Im paying


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## pacodemountainside (Apr 26, 2015)

*Voi  trust*



vacationhopeful said:


> Yes, we keep paying those $99 fees  ,,, but Wyndham is just loving how that is PRINTING much bigger bank statements for them --- all for doing NOTHING on their part.



Linda I suggest you get a copy of 1991 VOI  Trust agreement and audited financials and check out.

You will note  Trust,  NOT    WVO collects the fees we pay other than $299 transfer fee. It estimates how much it will collect in fees and what it costs to operate. The difference is minimum  $128  Program fee all of us points owners pay.

While WVO does get  a management  fee  the $99 does not go to  them.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 26, 2015)

pacodemountainside said:


> Linda I suggest you get a copy of 1991 VOI  Trust agreement and audited financials and check out.
> 
> You will note  Trust,  NOT    WVO collects the fees we pay other than $299 transfer fee. It estimates how much it will collect in fees and what it costs to operate. The difference is minimum  $128  Program fee all of us points owners pay.
> 
> While WVO does get  a management  fee  the $99 does not go to  them.



Paco,
Who pays the salaries and bonus to the bigwigs? If the TRUST does NOT have money, it can't be paid OUT $$$ to the players and the players set their pay scale. 

Sort of like a non-profit. Can't keep money in the bank .. they have to pay it out. Private jets, training sessions on island or foreign countries, first class flights, drivers & limo, dinner meetings, girlfriends .... many companies STOPPED participating in "large & national charity fund", as the staff's life style was WAY HIGHER than normal scale ... way, way higher.


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## am1 (Apr 26, 2015)

pacodemountainside said:


> Linda I suggest you get a copy of 1991 VOI  Trust agreement and audited financials and check out.
> 
> You will note  Trust,  NOT    WVO collects the fees we pay other than $299 transfer fee. It estimates how much it will collect in fees and what it costs to operate. The difference is minimum  $128  Program fee all of us points owners pay.
> 
> While WVO does get  a management  fee  the $99 does not go to  them.



At the end of the day it is my guess that most of the $99 fee goes to Wyndham even though the cost of adding a guest name and sending a guest confirmation by e-mail costs very little.


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## pacodemountainside (Apr 26, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> Paco,
> Who pays the salaries and bonus to the bigwigs? If the TRUST does NOT have money, it can't be paid OUT $$$ to the players and the players set their pay scale.
> 
> Sort of like a non-profit. Can't keep money in the bank .. they have to pay it out. Private jets, training sessions on island or foreign countries, first class flights, drivers & limo, dinner meetings, girlfriends .... many companies STOPPED participating in "large & national charity fund", as the staff's life style was WAY HIGHER than normal scale ... way, way higher.


Linda:

You have lost    me.  I am sure WVO  pays 3 executives who  serve on Trust Board a very generous salary for for their  corporate services.

In addition Trust probably pays them  a stipend that goes in their pocket. Would have to read Trust Agreement to  check out.

I suggest you get a copy of audited Trust Financials from accounting in Vegas  and document what it is you are saying.

I would bet the farm there are no lavish entertainment expenses charged by WVO  to the Trust.

We, especially   non-VIPS are getting the shaft from VIP  Discounts.

At sixty (60) days WVO can legally steal 90%  of Trust inventory. They are supposed to pay something for but never get  billed.

Since it is pretty much agreed points are points they can use as they feel.

So,  when VIPs  do their thingy at 60 days and get discounts WVO  owes Trust for points.. So, they grab whatever points they need to cover.

Those Arkansas lawyers can show their Philadelphia  brethren a thing  or two.


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## am1 (Apr 27, 2015)

I do not think they are stealing the inventory but using their points.  Not sure why non vip owners get the shaft from vip owners.  Even if so you are welcome to become vip.


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## pacodemountainside (Apr 27, 2015)

am1 said:


> At the end of the day it is my guess that most of the $99 fee goes to Wyndham even though the cost of adding a guest name and sending a guest confirmation by e-mail costs very little.



I am sure there is little cost to Trust to provide these services. It
is a matter of who pays fees for "excess" usage vs allocation  over all members.


Like $299 ownership change fee WVO charges. Mostly profit but no alternative.

I would be interested in you explaining how WVO ends up with most of $99 fee.

The Trust Financial are audited for conformity with GAAP,  Trust documents, BOD resolutions, etc.

 While auditors only sample and probably will not catch fraud if there is   collusion  I seriously doubt WVO could get away with charges for orgies to Trust.


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## pacodemountainside (Apr 27, 2015)

am1 said:


> I do not think they are stealing the inventory but using their points.  Not sure why non vip owners get the shaft from vip owners.  Even if so you are welcome to become vip.



Actually I am a VIP.

Following is Trust provision for WVO to legally steal inventory at 60 days.


11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use. In addition, to the extent more Points are available in the Plan than are allocated to Members other than Wyndham, Wyndham may sell or lease Points on such terms as Wyndham and the Trustee deem reasonable. The purchasers or lessees of such Points shall have such Membership rights as Wyndham and the Trustee deem appropriate.

Non-VIPs receive no  discounted booking  benefits. If there is no inventory left after VIPs  do  discounts and WVO grabs what it wants they are out of luck.

Like week owners,   when inventory is gone tough luck. Think AVP.


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## am1 (Apr 27, 2015)

pacodemountainside said:


> I am sure there is little cost to Trust to provide these services. It
> is a matter of who pays fees for "excess" usage vs allocation  over all members.
> 
> 
> ...



Wyndham is not working for free to provide this.   Where do these funds show up in the trust?  Why the need to charge owners an excessive guest fee anyways?


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## ronparise (Apr 27, 2015)

am1 said:


> Wyndham is not working for free to provide this.   Where do these funds show up in the trust?  Why the need to charge owners an excessive guest fee anyways?



The annual meeting of the trust was held earlier this month. You can listen to it online.   Pay attention to Peter Hernandez's presentation.  He mentions this and points it out on the financial statement. .


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## pacodemountainside (Apr 27, 2015)

*Trust Financials*



am1 said:


> Wyndham is not working for free to provide this.   Where do these funds show up in the trust?  Why the need to charge owners an excessive guest fee anyways?



They did go over 2014 Trust Financials  at Annual meeting. However, generally not available
until June so using 2013.

Trust got $77 million from program fee and $24 million from "excess" user fees or ball 
park 1/4.

In addition WVO reimbursed $16 million for VIP benefits excluding points discounts.

The Trust did pay WVO $4 million for management fees. This would include VP Owner Relations.

It is also interesting to note Trust paid RCI $19 million for our  "free"  memberships. Ballpark around 500K members
RCI gets about $40 for Wyndham points owners vs $89 posted rate.


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## pacodemountainside (Apr 27, 2015)

ronparise said:


> The annual meeting of the trust was held earlier this month. You can listen to it online.   Pay attention to Peter Hernandez's presentation.  He mentions this and points it out on the financial statement. .



Hey Ron:

Half asleep and missed this post. One bad side effect is I now can't get to sleep at a decent hour.

Yes, Peter has been around since day of great flood. Recall how he and Deanne Gabel  ramrodded
change  to eliminate points borrowing to frustrate mega renters. Also, to keep POA fee stable increased  "excess" user fees.

After Trust Controller blew me off I sent him some pregnant questions but never got a response.

Did he answer  questions after his presentation?



This hails back to when Bill Spearman wrote  his expose of Wyndham in TimeSharing Today  and Kendra Bowers was suing Wyndham/Trust from Colorado Springs to Denver to Florida.


Apparently Kendra won her lawsuit(sealed) but never heard
 how Bill fared.


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## Bigrob (Apr 27, 2015)

pacodemountainside said:


> Hey Ron:
> 
> Half asleep and missed this post. One bad side effect is I now can't get to sleep at a decent hour.
> 
> ...



I think Spearmans' case is still open? Wyndham got part of it summarily dismissed but not all?

Bottom line is, there is no way to "cost justify" the charge for guest confirmations. We may as well call it what it is... an attempt to curtail mega-renters without being so outlandish that everyone rails against it. 

Here's one thing I could use a little insight on... it was WVO executive leadership that pushed for the change to include a guest confirmation charge, not the trust per se, although the money goes to the trust. Obviously the trust is not representing owner's interest so much as acting as WVO's puppet. Given the dramatic increase in guest confirmation fees - from $0 to $29 to (rapidly) $99/129 - where is this money going? I don't recall seeing a reduction in Club Wyndham Program Fees to account for this new source of funding? Would be really interested to see especially in the year that the change was instituted how this large influx of cash was planned/budgeted and then disbursed.


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## pacodemountainside (Apr 27, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> I think Spearmans' case is still open? Wyndham got part of it summarily dismissed but not all?
> 
> Bottom line is, there is no way to "cost justify" the charge for guest confirmations. We may as well call it what it is... an attempt to curtail mega-renters without being so outlandish that everyone rails against it.
> 
> Here's one thing I could use a little insight on... it was WVO executive leadership that pushed for the change to include a guest confirmation charge, not the trust per se, although the money goes to the trust. Obviously the trust is not representing owner's interest so much as acting as WVO's puppet. Given the dramatic increase in guest confirmation fees - from $0 to $29 to (rapidly) $99/129 - where is this money going? I don't recall seeing a reduction in Club Wyndham Program Fees to account for this new source of funding? Would be really interested to see especially in the year that the change was instituted how this large influx of cash was planned/budgeted and then disbursed.


Simple answer POA stayed same or went down.

Not sure where all the confusion is coming from.  It costs so much to operate an entity for a given period, say a  calendar  year be it a Trust, Corporation, Partnership, etc. 

For  Annual 2013 VOI Trust had about $130 million  operating  budget. It  got funds to cover  this this  from  POA fee,  "excess" user fees,
reimbursement from WVO, interest earnings,  etc.

Presumably BOD  members  are reasonable  and prudent(check legal  dictionary for complete  definition) businessmen  who act in good faith. The Arkansas  Attorney General has so ruled.

It is  common for a small group of individuals who over utilize  something to complain and expect vast majority to subsidize them.

There is NO  doubt some fees charged by WVO and Trust bear NO resemblance to cost to provide, but in Trust case appears BOD is  striking balance .   For several years bragged POA fee did not increase while HOA fees did.  Certainly a side effect may be Mega Renters  get zapped.

Think of lawsuit. If you want to sue some one you have to go to court house or use  service like Nexis  and pay fee,  pay process server,  copying costs,  deposition fees, etc. However, all tax payers pay for actual trial  cost. Like wise,  if protesting a traffic ticket no charge but you do pay fine.

It is also interesting to  note  the many name variations used to ID this 1991 Trust as Amended.

See below for sample of BOD Trust Meeting where fees were upped.


FAIRSHARE VACATION OWNERS ASSOCIATION
SPECIAL MEETING
BOARD OF DIRECTORS
September 24, 2008


FairShare Vacation Owners Association Board of Directors:
Brian Keller, Gary Byrd and Peter Hernandez


Invited Attendees:
Deanne Gabel, Barb O'Donnell, Russell Cook, Carmen Gibson



o Call to Order
This is a special meeting called to order by the President, Brian Keller, on September 24,
2008 in Orlando, Florida at 3:40pm.


o Establish Ouorum
Peter Hernandez, Gary Byrd and Brian Keller (the "Board") were present either in person or
by telephone conference thereby satisfying the Quorum requirements.
Carmen Gibson acted as recording secretary. Invited guests in attendance were Deanne
Gabel, Barb O'Donnell, and Russell Cook, all representing the Manager.


o Owner Fee Analvsis Summary
The President announced that this is a special meeting to review proposed changes to the fee
structure for several Program Options of the FairShare Plus Program. The proposed fee
structure document summary, as proposed by the Manager, is attached to these minutes. The
overall recommendation to move to a fee for service structure is to appropriately assign the
fees to those owners using specific services. The consideration ofthis change will enable the
club to not burden the entire ownership base for the cost of those services, and will minimize
the otherwise needed increase in the 2009 Annual Program Assessment Fee. The President
requested that the Board address each proposed change individually.


1. Points Credit Pool
The Manager explained that this feature allows FSP Members to place FSP Points,
which would otherwise go unused, into the Points Credit Pool for use in later use
years. The Manager has proposed an increase in the fee to be charged to Members
who deposit their Points in the Pool from $30 per transaction to $39 per transaction.
The Manager represented that the increase is necessary to cover the current costs of
providing this service, and to minimize the increase to the Program Fees to cover
such costs.
Motion: Peter Hernandez made a motion to approve the Manager's recommendation
to increase the fee charged to Members utilizing the Point Credit Pool, which increase
will be implemented in the fourth quarter of2008. Gary Byrd seconded the motion
and discussion of the proposed fee increase ensued. Following the discussion, it was
carried unanimously.




2. Points Rental
The Manager explained that this feature allows Members to rent points to complete a
standard reservation, if the Member does not have sufficient Points in his account
(typically, limited to the number of Points needed for the 7thnight of a stay) or, if
making an Express Reservation, a Member may rent a number of Points up to his
annual allotment. The current fees are $10 per 1,000 Points for the Standard
Reservation and $5 per 1,000Points for the Express Reservation (whether or not
booked on the web or through the Contact Center). The Manager has proposed the
that the fee for an Express Reservation rate be changed to $8 per 1,000points if
booked on the web and of $10 per 1,000points if booked via the Contact Center with
an implementation date in the fourth quarter of2008. The Manager has recommended
the proposed change due to increased costs of obtaining these points for rent, as well
as servicing this type of transaction. In addition a variable rate structure for
functionality on the web site has been established to provide further benefits to the
owners.
Motion: Peter Hernandez made a motion to approve the Manager's recommendation
to increase the Points Rental fee to an Express Reservation rate of$8 per 1,000points
ifbooked on the web and of$10 per 1,000 points ifbooked via the Contact Center
with an implementation date in the fourth quarter of2008. The Rate for Points rental
during the Standard Reservation period will remain unchanged. Gary Byrd seconded
the motion and discussion of the proposed fee increase ensued, along with an
additional recommendation ftom Peter Hernandez to increase the current Wyndham
Employee rental fee of $2 per 1,000to $2.75 per 1,000,with an implementation date
in the fourth quarter of2008. Gary Byrd seconded the amended motion and it was
carried unanimously.




3. Personal Interval Choice (PIC)
The Manager eXplainedthis feature allows Members who own non-Wyndham, RCIaffiliated
intervals to elect to assign the use rights for such intervals on an annual
basis to FairShare Plus in exchange for FSP Points. The current fee for this election is
$50 and the Manager has suggested that it be increased to $89. The Manager stated
that the increase is warranted since the current $50 fee is remitted directly to RCI for
servicing, and the additional $39 is necessary to cover the cost of FairShare Plus
servicing this transaction within the Contact Center
Motion: Peter Hernandez made a motion to approve the Manager's recommendation
to increase the PIC fee to $89 to be implemented in the fourth quarter of2008. Gary
Byrd seconded the motion at which point discussion of the proposed fee increase
ensued. Following the discussion, the motion was carried unanimously.




4. Billing  Fee
The Manager advised the Board that for those FSP Members who choose to receive a
bill for the FSP Annual Assessment on a monthly basis, the Manager currently
charges a fee of $6 per invoice. The Manager has proposed an increase in this fee to
$8 per invoice. The Manager indicated that the increase is necessary in order to
maintain the Program Fee at or near the current levels, and that the option of
complimentary Pre-Authorized Charge (PAC) is available to every owner.
Motion: Peter Hernandez made a motion to approve the Manager's recommendation
to increase the current Billing fee to $8 per invoice to be implemented in the fourth
quarter of2008. Gary Byrd seconded the motion and discussion of the proposed fee
increase ensued. Following the discussion, the motion was carried unanimously.




5. Guest Confirmation
The Manager reminded the Board that the current reservation policy of the FairShare
Plus program requires that a "guest" of a Member is required to produce a "Guest
Confirmation" when he or she checks into the resort. The Guest Confirmation is
required only when someone other than a member fulfills a reservation. Currently, the
Manager allows each Member a certain number of complimentary Guest
Confirmations (depending on membership category) before a fee of $25 is assessed.
The Manager restated the number of Guest Reservations to which a Member is
entitled and then recommended increasing the fee charged per Guest Confirmation to
$99 for bookings made on line and to $129 for bookings using a reservationist. The
Manager provided to the Board evidence that the use of this feature has increased and
the costs of administering it have likewise increased.
Motion: Peter Hernandez made a motion to approve the Manager's recommendation
to increase the current Guest Confirmation fee to $129 for each Confirmation issued
as a result of a reservationist call and $99 for each Confirmation issued as a result of
reservations booked on the web to be implemented in the fourth quarter of2008. Gary
Byrd seconded the motion and discussion of the number of complimentary tree Guest
Confirmations allocated to Members and the increase in fees for additional Guest
Confirmations ensued. Following the discussion, the motion and was carried
unanimously


6. Reservation Transactions
The Manager advised the Board that the current Reservations Transactions fee is $25
and is charged to the FSP Member after he has used each of his allotted transactions,
based on one (1) transaction for each 77,000 Points owned. The Manager has
proposed that the Reservation Transactions allotment remain at one for each 77,000
Points owned, but that the fee for subsequent transactions be increased to $59 for
each transaction handled by a call and to $30 for each transaction made on the web.
The Manager indicated that the number of transactions has increased significantly, as
has the costs of administering such transactions, and without this increase, the
to increase the Reservation Transaction fee to $59 per call and $30 for reservations
booked on the web to be implemented in the fourth quarter of2008. Gary Byrd
seconded the motion at which point discussion of the Reservations Transaction fee
ensued. Following the discussion, the motion was carried unanimously.


7. Late Fee
The Manager presented financial information related to collections of the FSP Annual
Assessment and the number and duration of delinquencies in payments. As a result of
an increasing number of delinquent payments of the monthly installment of the FSP
Annual Assessment and the additional costs which the Manager is incurring to collect
delinquent payments, and with a goal of maintaining the FSP Program Fee at or near
its current level, the Manager has proposed (i) amending (with the consent of
Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc.) the Second Amended and Restated FairShare Plus
Vacation Plan Use Management Trust Agreement to allow the Trustee to institute a
late fee to be charged on delinquent accounts and (ii) establishing a charge of $15.00
to be added to the account of each Member whose monthly installment of the FSP
Annual Assessment is late more than thirty (30) days.
Motion: Peter Hernandez made a motion to approve the Manager's recommendation
(i) to seek the consent of Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc. to amend the FSP Trust
Agreement authorizing the Trustee to establish a late fee for delinquent payment of
installments of the FSP Annual Assessment and that once amended (ii) to approve the
Manager charging Members a late fee of$15.00 on the delinquent payment of
monthly installments of the FSP Assessment. Gary Byrd seconded the motion and
discussion of the Manager's recommendations ensued. Following the discussion, the
motion was carried unanimously.


Gary Byrd requested that Deanne Gabel, Plan Manager, prepare a comprehensive
communication plan for delivery and explanation of the approved fee changes to the FSP
Members, along with an anticipated question and answer section.




Motion to Adjourn
Peter Hernandez made a motion to adjourn the meeting, Brian Keller seconded the
motion and it passed unanimously. Meeting was adjourned at 4:00pm.


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## Bigrob (Apr 27, 2015)

Thanks for sharing this.



pacodemountainside said:


> Simple answer POA stayed same or went down.
> 
> The
> Manager provided to the Board evidence that the use of this feature has increased and
> ...



I would be very interested to see the evidence showing an incremental cost of $99 because of entering a guest confirmation. 

To clarify a point and correct an erroneous implication in your statement regarding "It is common for a small group of individuals who over utilize something to complain and expect vast majority to subsidize them." Where do you get the idea they are being subsidized? Owners with more points pay more fees and SHOULD have more utilization of services. Otherwise, it is large points owners who are subsidizing others... which I argue is exactly what is happening and what WVO has intended. Does a user account with 3M points really cost 10 times as much to service as one with only 300K? Nope. Account setup, security, maintenance, etc. is the same, it is only the difference in transaction volume that is incremental (and the transaction-based component is generally a small portion of IT costs). Yet not only is the 3M point user paying 10X CWPs, he or she is also paying excess fees for "services" with very little incremental cost associated with them.


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## am1 (Apr 27, 2015)

Just paid 3 $99 guest confirmation fees to add the guest name to a 3 part 8 night reservation that the first guest decided could not go.  Hard for anyone to justify that being the right way to treat owners.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 27, 2015)

And I find that "quote" funny about GC fee increases.

It was $29 when YOU could ONLY put a GC on a reservation via a PHONE call. It then went to $49 ... for about 2 or 3 months (call in).

Then it went via computer or call in at $99. 


Then, call in got to be $129......

In total elapse time - less than 6 months ....

I don't remember but it was about the same time as the $99/129 increase, that VIP Platinum went for ALL GCs FREE to 15 per 1MM points....


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## am1 (Apr 27, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> I don't remember but it was about the same time as the $99/129 increase, that VIP Platinum went for ALL GCs FREE to 20 per 1MM points....



15 per million. Thankfully no decrease in that so far as point inflation has been happening.


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## ronparise (Apr 27, 2015)

am1 said:


> 15 per million. Thankfully no decrease in that so far as point inflation has been happening.



actually its  15 per million and each fraction of a million. I have just over a milion VIP eligible points in one account and I get 30 guest confirms.


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## am1 (Apr 27, 2015)

ronparise said:


> actually its  15 per million and each fraction of a million. I have just over a milion VIP eligible points in one account and I get 30 guest confirms.



yes that is correct


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## ronparise (Apr 27, 2015)

am1 said:


> yes that is correct



and that would be plenty for a small platinum account, at least the way I use mine,  but I have a lot of points in that account. My 30 GC's  were all used in January. As Eric said..those $99 add up pretty quick to where we are talking about real money.


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## Bigrob (Apr 27, 2015)

ronparise said:


> and that would be plenty for a small platinum account, at least the way I use mine,  but I have a lot of points in that account. My 30 GC's  were all used in January. As Eric said..those $99 add up pretty quick to where we are talking about real money.



Especially if you are doing a lot of short-term stays.


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## Ichiro (May 6, 2015)

At what day during the 60-15 days before check-in does everyone feel most comfortable cancelling and rebooking?


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## vacationhopeful (May 6, 2015)

Ichiro said:


> At what day during the 60-15 days before check-in does everyone feel most comfortable cancelling and rebooking?



None of them ... it is getting harder and harder to not lose stuff....


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## Bigrob (May 6, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> None of them ... it is getting harder and harder to not lose stuff....



Agree with this. Some locations are safer than others. But I would never try to cancel and rebook at Bonnet Creek, Grand Desert, Myrtle Beach in summer, NOLA Mardi Gras, etc. on day 60. If you're also upgrading as well as canceling and rebooking, that may determine when you'll want to cancel and rebook. If you're eligible to upgrade at day 60 (i.e., Platinum), you'll probably want to do your cancel/rebook/upgrade within the platinum-only cycle for upgrades (i.e., before day 45). Only exception would be if there were a lot of units in between the bottom and the top, but even there I'll sometime cancel/rebook the larger unit without an upgrade to return half the points back, then cancel and rebook again when the right upgrade path becomes available.

The other reason you may cancel/rebook on a different cycle is if you need to shorten a reservation, or rebook it to cover a split reservation with a single guest confirmation. That can be a risky proposition - and it's driven by that nuisance $99 guest confirmation fee.

As far as when to do it - Linda's right. From experience I can tell you there is no time that is safe. Anytime the online system is available, there's always a risk you'll lose it to a bot, maintenance issue, or some other owner who just happens to be looking for what you're releasing. The bots are really quick at grabbing upgrades. So if you're trying to cancel and rebook a 2BR unit for a week at Bonnet Creek... good luck. I'm not saying it can't be done... but it is definitely a risk.


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## am1 (May 6, 2015)

It is a lot harder now. 

In Florida alone in the last 6 months Wyndham has been keeping all cancellations in South Florida, Bonnet Creek and Ocean Walk for renovations at different times.  Then there are the bots that some still do not believe exist and others who think its fine.  But they do exist and are costing me tens of thousands.  Maybe a waitlist is the solution as I will just waitlist weeks asap.

I use to do the cancel rebook/upgrade when you had to call in to get this all done in the mornings.  I use to tag the 5 - 10 units I wanted each morning and hen every 15 minutes get one upgraded and tag the others for another 15 minutes.  There was a short time when the website opened before the call center opened so I had to keep tagging the units for an hour.   My success rate was incredible back then now it really is a different world.


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## vacationhopeful (May 7, 2015)

There are several other "factors" in play here - not just bots (which I also believe exist)...

1) eBay acceptance as a provider of travel provider ...
2) the economy is getting better - more $$ for travel
3) the increasing RETIRED population who are able to travel AND who are internet smart.
4) the internet and internet business sites for travel.. my parents use a road service travel club or stayed at Holiday Inn. Today's travelers use Google on their smart phones as they cruise 85MPH on the interstate & buy off eBay. Or while on a plane. 
5) segmented market - imperfect - how many times do I have an ad running for $1000 for 7 nights rental and are offered $300 for the 7 nights or offered $100 for a night in the middle? 2-3 weeks before checkin ... to help _*me*_ out.


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## comicbookman (May 7, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> There are several other "factors" in play here - not just bots (which I also believe exist)...
> 
> 1) eBay acceptance as a provider of travel provider ...
> 2) the economy is getting better - more $$ for travel
> ...



I am still not convinced that the bots exist.  While I have no doubt they could exist, as Linda has pointed out above there are more than enough other factors to explain what is happening.


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## bnoble (May 7, 2015)

It doesn't matter what the reason is.  What matters is that the technique is no longer reliable.  Plan appropriately.


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## ace2000 (May 7, 2015)

bnoble said:


> It doesn't matter what the reason is.  What matters is that the technique is no longer reliable.  Plan appropriately.



Ha... perfect reply!  This right here should end the discussion... we can only hope.


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## comicbookman (May 7, 2015)

bnoble said:


> It doesn't matter what the reason is. What matters is that the technique is no longer reliable. Plan appropriately.



Absolutely!  I no longer make plans depending on  this strategy.


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## bnoble (May 11, 2015)

FYI: Kent McCain has now contacted me about the potential lawsuit.  I'm not sure why---I've been very clear about the fact that I'm neither VIP nor sympathetic to the cause. But, someone is clearly going fishing. Maybe they will catch something!


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## travelwyndham (May 13, 2015)

*Cancel and rebook*



jimfisk said:


> If I want to make a one-week Wyndham reservation in prime time for my own use 10 months ahead and do a successful cancel-rebook on it when I get within two months of the reservation time, will I have a better chance of success if I make the reservation as two separate reservations (one three-day res and one four-day res) instead of a single seven-day reservation?


Hello, I have found that My risks are very high when I cancel a 1 week stay, but I rarely lose a 3 or 4 night cancel and rebook.


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## Bigrob (May 13, 2015)

travelwyndham said:


> Hello, I have found that My risks are very high when I cancel a 1 week stay, but I rarely lose a 3 or 4 night cancel and rebook.



It's location-dependent. Certain areas are tougher than others. Bonnet Creek is probably the worst. And weeks do seem to be higher risk there.


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## ronparise (May 23, 2015)

for those of you that care about these things, I did 17 cancel and re-books today, 6 of which also included an upgrade. I didnt lose one.  Several were reservations cancelled in one account (not VIP) and re booked in another. 

For the record none were at Bonnet Creek or Glacier Canyon  all were July 4th weekend. 

It still works


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## Sandi Bo (May 24, 2015)

Thanks for posting Ron.  I've not had any issues lately, either.  I haven't had the volume you have, but I've been doing what I need to without issue.  No complaints since Easter. I've booked multiple locations, including Bonnet Creek, including Memorial Day week-end and not lost anything. I'm able to find last minute cancellations, I even found a 2 bedroom presidential at the Grand Desert the week-end of the big fight (when we rather last minute ended up in Vegas for a class my husband was taking the following week). 

I've not seen evidence of "the bots' running lately. I haven't lost cancel/rebooks, can find last minute cancellations, and... the system is not going down on a regular basis (as it was during prime activity times around Christmas and Easter).


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## am1 (May 24, 2015)

Lost 1 last night to the bots.  Was able to get some done where the bots are not interested.  If the bots do not want what you have then there is still little risk for someone that knows what they are doing.


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## ronparise (May 24, 2015)

am1 said:


> Lost 1 last night to the bots.  Was able to get some done where the bots are not interested.  If the bots do not want what you have then there is still little risk for someone that knows what they are doing.



I think thats the point. Its other owners that are getting your cancellations, Not Wyndham.  

 we know that Bonnet Creek can be difficult, and also Glacier Canyon.  Any other places I should stay away from?


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## Bigrob (May 24, 2015)

ronparise said:


> I think thats the point. Its other owners that are getting your cancellations, Not Wyndham.
> 
> we know that Bonnet Creek can be difficult, and also Glacier Canyon.  Any other places I should stay away from?



I have lost several reservations at Grand Desert. Myrtle Beach in the summer is also tough to cancel rebook, but at other times I've had great success. I've also lost reservations at National Harbor.

From my experience, from most trouble to least, it has been:

1. Bonnet Creek - very difficult especially with full weeks. 
2. Grand Desert - events and weekends are difficult. It's a large resort though so if you lose something you might get it back if you keep looking. Sandi congrats on your find for fight weekend, scalpers were getting $500/night and up.
3. Summer Myrtle Beach
4. National Harbor

Oddly enough, I have not had trouble canceling and rebooking in New Orleans even at Mardi Gras. Certain other locations I've never had a problem in even though the resort is sold out... Sedona for example. And I had good success at Park City this winter but I suspect it will be more competitive next season.


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## am1 (May 24, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> Oddly enough, I have not had trouble canceling and rebooking in New Orleans even at Mardi Gras. Certain other locations I've never had a problem in even though the resort is sold out... Sedona for example. And I had good success at Park City this winter but I suspect it will be more competitive next season.



I am sure the bots are going to New Orleans for NYE and Madri Gras next year.  With all the success Ron talks about having there they would be crazy not to.  They can for sure at least pick up a few of his cancellations.


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## ronparise (May 24, 2015)

am1 said:


> I am sure the bots are going to New Orleans for NYE and Madri Gras next year.  With all the success Ron talks about having there they would be crazy not to.  They can for sure at least pick up a few of his cancellations.



They wouldn't dare.  Would they?

And who is this they we speak of

For me the cancel and rebook thing is a bonus when it works.  I do ok without the discount


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## Kozman (May 25, 2015)

am1 said:


> The bots are expanding to new resorts.  Anyone trying to get last minute reservations at peak times at popular resorts are going to be disappointed every time now.
> 
> Everyone should consider this unacceptable and complain to Wyndham.  It is an easy fix as well as very easy to find out who is behind this and block their online access or more.



Just a wild thought but what if the bots are Wyndham themselves? It would be in their interest to stop all cancel and rebooks. I wouldn't think it would be illegal for them to do.


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## am1 (May 25, 2015)

Kozman said:


> Just a wild thought but what if the bots are Wyndham themselves? It would be in their interest to stop all cancel and rebooks. I wouldn't think it would be illegal for them to do.



If Wyndham wants the unit it would not come back in to availability at all.

They would also book it right away and it would not show up for a split second 15 minutes later and so for. The later only happens sometimes.  Possibly if the account does not have enough points or the bot is unable to confirm the reservation on its own but needs it to be done manually.


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## Bigrob (May 25, 2015)

am1 said:


> it would not show up for a split second 15 minutes later



Thank you for mentioning this. I hadn't considered that the unit might come back at the 15 minute mark after a lock gets put on it. I've always pretty much just given up after futilely pounding the keys looking for my reservation within the first 3-4 minutes.


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## am1 (May 25, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> Thank you for mentioning this. I hadn't considered that the unit might come back at the 15 minute mark after a lock gets put on it. I've always pretty much just given up after futilely pounding the keys looking for my reservation within the first 3-4 minutes.



I have chased some for a few hours.

Success rate is very low.  But if it comes back after 15 minutes and disappears again there is hope.


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