# Marriott's Full Court Press for Destinations



## jerseyfinn (Aug 22, 2010)

Marriott's full court press to sell Destinations Club is on.

I suspect that lots of MVC owners realize that Marriott is pushing really hard to convince legacy owners of the merits of joing the new Destination Club (DC) points program. I get a first hand look at just how hard Marriott is pushing during a recent visit to Ocean Pointe. Although I wanted to do a sit down to see what the sales folks are doing, we could not coordinate a time because my wife is back and forth for limited days and she values her beach time more than a sales pitch ( summer thunderstorms make beach days an unknown entity ).  So we're going to work in a session during a return visit in December when my wife will spend the week.

In this message, I will relate conversations I have with non-owner guests and MVC owners who do a sales presentation which is strictly aimed at promoting DC. Much of my "research" occurs at the Ocean Pointe bar where I chat with folks in the evening ( I'm a very skilled "researcher"   ). Although some of the folks I speak with may have morning after amnesia about our conversation, I remain steadfast and reasonably sober enough to relate their observations and responses to the new Marriott DC product and the sales pitch tossed at them. Once again, I emphasize that I do not personally speak with any sales associates this visit.

There's lots of folks both at Ocean Pointe & Oceana Palms on discounted previews. At Ocean Pointe, we also find a lot of owners who like us, come down for a summer interlude in the crystal clear ocean and warm waters. We receive a call prior to our visit by a guest rep who checks with us about restaurants and other useful tidbits of info, but whose main purpose is to get us to sign up for a preview. Actually for an owner, it's called an "information seminar about DC" whilst for non-owner walk-ins it's a "sales preview" plain and simple. As as already noted, we had the interest, but my wife lacks the time to complete a session. Hence I turn towards other guests to catch up on their take of the preview and DC.

I have nice conversations with some 6 owners and an equal number of non-owners who share their thoughts with me ( none of these owners knew about TUG, but they do now ). Above all things, the owners are confused and a bit concerned about what Marriott is up to. The sales pitch is built around an "act sooner than later" mystique which emphasizes the "lower fees". A couple of the owners were quick enough to realize that the lower fees only serve your interest if you're a frequent trader an not a regular who most usually occupies at their home resort. They all figure out that they are being offered less DC points for their MVC week than they would need to reserve the full 7 days. A few do take notice of the flexibility of being able to sneak in a couple of days at different Marriott resorts. The basic sales pitch to owners was to suggest trying DC as the enrollment cost is cheap and one can still elect not to use their points and go the legacy MVC route instead ( why buy and pay for something you do not intend to use?). Some sales folks suggest that a multiple week owner take one of their "lesser" weeks and enroll it in DC. I can somewhat see the logic for this if one is a multiple week owner who might be a little stretched for time and they might toss a week in to nibble on fewer days -- giving up some to get less, but at some very nice resorts. But then again, lots of TUGers practice the "buy where you will occupy regularly" catechism of timeshare, so this may not apply to all owners.

So the strategy for exisiting owners is "try it, you'll like it" and to use your less favorite weeks for DC. There remains an implicit seed that these special enrollment prices might change after years' end  ( is Marriott getting that cheesy to resort to this used car sort of dealing ? ). None of the 6 owners I speak to really knew very much of the DC program specifics. They speak of being able to reserve 13 months out or do Marriott Rewards points, but no one goes into much detail about the 3 levels of ownership and how one needs to enroll resorts for their DC points. What they do not know is that the need to enroll the equivilant of MVC weeks totaling 13K DC points to hit the top tier which is the most flexible and offers the better DC points to MR points conversions. I don't feel that sales was being evasive as much as the sales force is urgently trying to push/convince owners to drop one week into DC. A couple of owners were going to go home and deicde whether to enroll a week or two -- these appear to me to be folks who were very fearful/uncertain about DC and see it as a beheamoth that is going to slowly strangle the MVC product so they prefer to bow to Gorgon now rather than later. The other owners are also uncertain, but they remain confused and reluctant to do anything at this moment.

Preview folks ( non-owners ) are being sold DC on a different basis. Sales folks are very aware that non-owners are extremely cost conscious, so the push is on for these folks to purchase 1500 DC points ( for $13800 ). The sweetener is a one time offer of 800 additional DC points good for this year. The emphasis here is upon flexibility and the ability to get into some surpurlative Marriott resorts  -- not a hard idea to sell for preview folks staying at Oceana Palms with the panoramic views of the ocean and inland waterway. Sounds to me as if Marriott is searching for a way to back away from the $30K to $50K price tags of traditional MVC developer weeks and to dangle the DC Club as a less expensive alternative to get into the door. Not a bad idea at all in this economic market. Marriott definitely has two nice resorts ( Ocean POinte and Oceana Palms ) to whet the appetite of prospective destination travel purchasers. But none of the 6 non-owners I speak to opt to buy into DC. The mechanics of the program are a lot to digest -- probably a whole lot harder than a newbie coming into MVC. And unlike the MVC program where preview folks have real people to ask questions of, the DC program remains an unknown entity to experienced MVC owners.

That said, one of these 6 does initially sign on to DC. He's a New Yorker ( with the full NY personna ). He is also some who has been renting Ocean Pointe weeks for several years and has attended traditional MVC presentations, his most recent 2 years ago at Oceana Palms. The souring economy and his cost calculations have kept him in the renter column, but seeing Oceana Palms and the possibility to use DC to get into it tempts him. He signs on to the 1500 DC points option, but the next day is savvy enough to realize that he needs more points to really do anything meaningful with DC.  He's shown the DC resort exchange book where the sales rep points out 200 and 400 points per night for Ocean Pointe and Oceana Palms respectively. What the rep does not tell him is that these points are for the low season weeks and not prime weeks. And he fails to tell the NYer that a 7 night stay would be more than simply multiplying the 200 or 400 points by 7.  The NYer elects to rescind because he remains happy with renting weeks and he ponders a $5000 E-Bay week as a better alternative. That said, he loves what he sees at Oceana Palms and he is going to take a wait and see attitude for the future.

So I throw the gist of my recent conversations out here so that TUGers can see what folks are saying about Marriott and their first impressions of the Destinations Club. Obviously I've got my own subjective response & take on what they say, but I do try to relate the themes and points of view which prevail whlist sitting at the bar several nights chatting with fellow travelers.  Another thing I notice is that Steeler Nation is alive and well down Florida way as I also have several folks who notice my old, faded Steelers hat and I meet some great folks and have some wonderful conversations about the Steelers and the NFL in general. Just another form of "research" that one can do at the bar at Ocean Pointe.

Barry


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## Herb33 (Aug 22, 2010)

And he fails to tell the NYer that a 7 night stay would be more than simply multiplying the 200 or 400 points by 7.​
Assuming the 200 or 400 points are for Sun-Thu nights, this is true.  But the point values for Fri-Sat nights are higher, and the usage points required for a 1-week stay is exactly the same as adding up the points required for 7 consecutive nights. 

I've spent a goodly amount of time in deep research at the Ocean Pointe bar myself, though the effect on my math skills does not become apparent until I'm all the way back home and taking a closer look at the itemized invoice from my vacation.


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## hotcoffee (Aug 22, 2010)

Whenever I hear talk of mult-week owners enrolling only one week, I get to wondering what is the logic of that.  If I owned multiple weeks, I would probably opt to either enroll all of them or none of them.  This is because having lots of points really makes the program worthwhile.  Having relatively few points substantially limits what you can do.  If you own two weeks and enroll both of them, you can still elect points on just one of them in any given year.  But, you can also elect points on both of them and maybe borrow from just one of them from the next year and do a really special vacation for the current year.  The increased flexibility is worth the extra multiweek enrollment cost in my opinion.


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## Herb33 (Aug 22, 2010)

If it's up to us legacy owners to make this thing work by standing pat and waiting for the kinks to be ironed out in version 2.0 before making our move ... well ... then ... I'm your huckleberry. 

As I explained elsewhere in this forum ...

We bought into the new program at the 1,000 pt level. We're 2-week 2BR/OF owners at Ocean Pointe. We book & occupy those weeks consecutively in May or Sep every other year. We will most likely continue to do so. In the alternate years we will convert one, both, or neither of our OP weeks to the NEW points. It'll depend on how much vacation time we have and what we want to do with it. We DO like the added flexibility of using the NEW points for shorter mid-week trips to places we enjoy but where a whole week is just too much; e.g., Boston, Orlando, Vegas, AC, Hilton Head.  And for these short trips, we don't mind trading down to 1 BR.  If we only use the NEW points every other year, that means we'll have at least 2,000 to work with, plus 3,875 for each OP week we choose to convert. 

Yes, yes, I know, for the green-eyeshade bottom-line purists, I'm sure there are cheaper ways to do the kinds of things we plan to do with this new level of flexibility. But for us, timesharing is not a way of life as it seems to be for some folks.  It's just a way for us to vacation a couple weeks a year that meets our particular set of wants, needs & peculiarities.  And we've come to appreciate the intangibles of vacationing with MVC.  For us it's all about how WE like to plan & execute our vacations and how the experience measures up to our expectations. After 14 years I can honestly say MVC has never let us down. The worst vacation we've had -- the only BAD vacation we've had -- since becoming MVC owners in '97 was the one and only time we traded outside the Marriott system. Don't get me started on that one.

So ... we rolled the dice on the new program for the minimum.  While I'm a bit concerned about the effect the new program will have on future Marriott resales (mine in particular), that would be a concern whether we had joined or not.  We'll just have to wait and see which way the crap scatters after it hits the fan.

Meanwhile, my deepest apologies to my fellow legacy owners for contributing to the MVC Death Spiral that some of you might be anticipating.


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## puckmanfl (Aug 22, 2010)

good afternoon

Herb...
no reason to apologize...

you made an educated decision based on your needs...

Happy vacationing...

I  enrolled my 4 weeks for $695 and have done some good stuff..  I will be playing with II, owner occupancy and points based on my  current needs.  Hopefully,, the best of all worlds.  One can play as a legacy weeks owner as always.  The "skim" is the cost of the flexibility of points.  Sometimes, it is worth it... Other times not...  One size does not fit all...


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## Herb33 (Aug 22, 2010)

One quick comment about this ...

I suspect that lots of MVC owners realize that Marriott is pushing really hard to convince legacy owners of the merits of joing the new Destination Club (DC) points program. I get a first hand look at just how hard Marriott is pushing during a recent visit to Ocean Pointe.​
We bought our DC points from the same sales exec who sold us our Ocean Pointe weeks 10 years ago.  This time around he worked A LOT harder to close the deal and did not seem nearly as confident in his product as he did back then.


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## Swice (Aug 22, 2010)

*cheaper trading down?*

In theory it is cheaper trading down...  fewer points for a one-bedroom.

But a point that I'm afraid does not register with novices (and even some tuggers), is that there are many resorts with only two-bedrooms.

So forget stretching your points for a short one-bedroom stay at any South Carolina property for example.    Even in a lower season, the points would not be much of a savings.


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## GregT (Aug 23, 2010)

Herb33 said:


> We bought our DC points from the same sales exec who sold us our Ocean Pointe weeks 10 years ago.  *This time around he worked A LOT harder to close the deal and did not seem nearly as confident in his product as he did back then.*



Herb,

That is an interesting comment -- there are times I think I should have taken a cell phone picture of the whiteboards in the sales gallery at MOC on June 19, 2010 that *all *showed ---  "#1 Reason to buy Marriott -- Deeded".   The sales reps in Marriott are very very good at what they do and knew how to sell weeks effectively, and now they are selling an entirely new animal -- and a bit of a tricky one at that.   

This will take the sales team time to figure out how to effectively sell this thing.  Selling points (versus getting people to enroll) can't be easy -- 1) tough economy  2) existing owners may react to perceived treatment  3) new owners may realize they aren't getting much of a discount off the straight rental rate.    But the Marriott properties are terrific, and the flexibility that the system provides (and it does provide flexibility) is great if you are a little price insensitive.  I think you've found a way that it works for you and that's what we are all seeking.   


Barry (the original Poster), your comments on the differing sales approaches was very interesting.  I hope we can one day find out how the "success rate" compares to the success rate when selling weeks earlier this year.  I personally still think the new system was designed to try and get existing owners to buy 1,000 point blocks and that new owners will be Phase 2 of the emphasis.  Other smart TUGgers have disagreed with this and they may be right.  Irrespective, I hope that Marriott's success rate its good enough for Marriott to stay in this business -- I think we are all better off having Marriott be successful than losing interest and moving on from timeshares.   

Best to all,

Greg


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## luv2vacation (Aug 23, 2010)

Herb33 said:


> We bought into the new program at the 1,000 pt level. We're 2-week 2BR/OF owners at Ocean Pointe.





Herb33 said:


> In the alternate years we will convert one, both, or neither of our OP weeks to the NEW points. It'll depend on how much vacation time we have and what we want to do with it. We DO like the added flexibility of using the NEW points for shorter mid-week trips to places we enjoy but where a whole week is just too much; e.g., Boston, Orlando, Vegas, AC, Hilton Head.  And for these short trips, we don't mind trading down to 1 BR.





Herb33 said:


> Yes, yes, I know, for the green-eyeshade bottom-line purists, I'm sure there are cheaper ways to do the kinds of things we plan to do with this new level of flexibility. But for us, timesharing is not a way of life as it seems to be for some folks.  It's just a way for us to vacation a couple weeks a year that meets our particular set of wants, needs & peculiarities.  And we've come to appreciate the intangibles of vacationing with MVC.  For us it's all about how WE like to plan & execute our vacations and how the experience measures up to our expectations. After 14 years I can honestly say MVC has never let us down.





Herb33 said:


> So ... we rolled the dice on the new program for the minimum.  While I'm a bit concerned about the effect the new program will have on future Marriott resales (mine in particular), that would be a concern whether we had joined or not.  We'll just have to wait and see which way the crap scatters after it hits the fan.



Herb33 - we also own 2 OP weeks and signed up to purchase the minimum amount of points.  Since it was just this past Wed, we are still weighing the merits as we decide whether or not to cancel the contract.  However, we are leaning toward staying with the contract.  Like you stated so succinctly above, we love staying at the different Marriott resorts and really feel that the flexibility of partial week stays will be worth its weight in gold for us.  We had also already decided to enroll our weeks since we usually exchange, lock-off, and often change our reservations.  Not so concerned about the "skim" b/c if we want to go to OP in our season, we will just book that week for the year instead of exchanging for points.


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## davewasbaloo (Aug 23, 2010)

Interesting updates (as always Barry), thanks. Just out of curiosity, any of you guys know how DC would work if you wanted to trade into a non DC Marriott resort (like Swice did this year pre DC)?


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## Asia2000 (Aug 23, 2010)

Destination Points Required for Non-Marriott resorts within II

FULL-WEEK EXCHANGE VALUES
TDI                     One-     Two-     Three-     Four-    TDI
Range      Studio Bedroom Bedroom Bedroom Bedroom Range
140–150   2,250  3,000      4,500     6,000     7,000     140 – 150
115–135   1,750  2,750      4,000     5,000     6,000     115 – 135
90–110     1,500  2,250      3,000     4,000     5,000     90 – 110
50–85      1,000  1,500       2,250     3,000     4,000     50 – 85


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## jerseyfinn (Aug 23, 2010)

Herb33 said:


> And he fails to tell the NYer that a 7 night stay would be more than simply multiplying the 200 or 400 points by 7.​
> Assuming the 200 or 400 points are for Sun-Thu nights, this is true.  But the point values for Fri-Sat nights are higher, and the usage points required for a 1-week stay is exactly the same as adding up the points required for 7 consecutive nights.




Yes. The NYer felt that his rep was being a bit elusive throughout the entire sales pitch ( not dishonest, but also not real forthcoming ). The NYer is savvy enough to ask for the points book, but the rep keeps chatting and interupting him as he tries to look things up as his interest was in gauging how to travel as he presently does in 7 to 14 day stays. He was open to more flexible alternatives. So NYer misses the fine print about the 7 days and he completely underestimates how much more the the prime season requirements are.  He also notes that the rep kept getting up to leave the room when his quesions got too focused. But once again, he's a NYer and those guys will always fend for themselves.  



luv2vacation said:


> . . . we love staying at the different Marriott resorts and really feel that the flexibility of partial week stays will be worth its weight in gold for us. . .



The interesting revelation that I walk away with from my chats with other MVC owners who did the sales pitch is this idea where multiple week owners could "dabble" in DC with one week or so and this is where I could see some MVC owners gaining some flexibility to work in a few shorter stays to fill some small travel gap needs. My wife & I are looking this idea over but will not act on it this year as we've already put some things in motion for next year. But I do think that DC has some features that multiple week owners could benefit from.



GregT said:


> . . . I personally still think the new system was designed to try and get existing owners to buy 1,000 point blocks and that new owners will be Phase 2 of the emphasis . . .  I think we are all better off having Marriott be successful than losing interest and moving on from timeshares.



Initially, I did not see this idea, but now that they've been floating the DC boat for 2 months, I agree that this would be the more logical thing for single or two week MVC owners to ponder.  Other multiple week owners have additional options to consider such as enrolling one or more weeks.

Marriott itself appears poorly prepared for this transition as early on, they did not seem to have a consistent message to offer other than "try it, you'll like it", which ain't gonna work in these economic times. As I spoke to all of those folks at the bar as it was clear to me that stark differences exist between the needs/interest of various types of MVC owners versus new customers pondering entry into DC. 

The NYer quickly realizes he needs more points, but his sales rep could not grasp how to demonstrate the dynamics of the DC program to the guy and how it could fit his specific needs. All of the other non-owners were more confused as the entire idea and lexicon is completely new and foreign to them and there exist no "veteran" DC  members who can teach the ropes like an MVC seadog could teach the legacy product to a newbie.

These non-owners keep asking me what to do, but I was not gonna wade into that discussion other than to tell them to sit down, sketch out some travel goals/ideas, and see how DC would or would not allow you to achieve them.  I could see that Marriott has to do a lot more work to explain this thing to people.

And I agree 100% with you about Marriott and our resort weeks. That said,  Marriott needs to work some of the bugs out of version 1.0 and offer it's legacy MVC folks ( who stood by MVC & brought over 50% of sales to MVC before the crash ) a little more respect in terms of resale options for developer purchasers. They should also lay off of this December dealine stuff & respect that some MVC folks deserve time to think and ponder a bit longer. But we Marriott folks are in a better situation than some other TS products in this shaky economy.



Herb33 said:


> . . . I've spent a goodly amount of time in deep research at the Ocean Pointe bar myself, though the effect on my math skills does not become apparent until I'm all the way back home and taking a closer look at the itemized invoice from my vacation.



Yeah, I did pretty good this trip as I shopped at Publix & bought some beer there. I didn't go down every night and I keep it to 2 beers ( anything over that number I draw from my own stash, throw it in a bag full of ice, and sit on the night beach and howl at the moon ( actually it was a new moon so I had nothing to howl at    ).  I wrote down the numbers & info the NYer gave me on the back of my tab for future reference to insure against any "amnesia".

Barry


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## Herb33 (Aug 23, 2010)

He also notes that the rep kept getting up to leave the room when his quesions got too focused.​
I noticed that, too.  Apparently they keep their hole cards in another room instead of in their back pockets.  Kinda like car salesmen.

Herb


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## larryallen (Aug 23, 2010)

I will be sure to do some "research" when I go to Ko Olina in February!


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## Herb33 (Aug 23, 2010)

larryallen said:


> I will be sure to do some "research" when I go to Ko Olina in February!




I'm hip.


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## dougp26364 (Aug 23, 2010)

Asia2000 said:


> Destination Points Required for Non-Marriott resorts within II
> 
> FULL-WEEK EXCHANGE VALUES
> TDI                     One-     Two-     Three-     Four-    TDI
> ...



In dealing with two points based programs and talking with people as we travel, I've come to a rule of thumb that most families need, at a minimum, the typical number of points for a two bedroom exchange through Interval during average demand time according to the TDI. 

Based on the figures given above for exchange through Interval, that would mean that Marriott salesmen should be pushing 3,000 to 4,000 points as an initial purchase, falling back to 1,500 points and using the EOY approach only as a last resort or, as a low ball way to get people into the program with the idea that they can increase their ownership as their budget allows. In my mind, if EOY usage is the goal, then 2,000 points should be the minimum number of points offered to give them the best shot at being happy owners.

Of course, the very best approach is to find out exactly how the couple likes to travel and sell them a points package based strictly on their needs. It's apparent that the economic times has some salesmens trying to peek into the checkbooks of prospects. From the point of view of a sales manager (I once was a salesman and sales manger), that is always a foolish thing to do. Learn what the client wants, show them what they want/need regardless of the price and what you might think they can afford, then go on from there. Negotiation and compromise may always be a part of sales but, it's important that you work with the client to achieve their goals or, at least have a plan in place to get started now and work on achieving their goals as they can afford to build upon their foundation. 

It's unfortunate that Marriott doesn't seem to grasp this basic concept about sales. It's apparent to me from what I've read thus far that they're pushing rather than selling. Pushing may have short term benefits but often does long term damage. Selling might be harder but, you achieve better long term results and happier customers who enjoy giving referals.


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## JimC (Aug 23, 2010)

Doug, I agree.  But based on the comments above I don't think that is what Marriott is doing.  I think Marriott is focused on a price point (under $14,000 or possibly a monthly payment target using their financing) where they believe they can close sufficient deals to meet revenue goals.


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## Asia2000 (Aug 23, 2010)

Here is a question for the expert TUGGERS:

What percentage of all Marriott timeshares are currently

A.  Original owners, bought from Marriott or Resold through Marriott

B.  Resale owners bought through a classified ad or some other means.

The reason I ask, is that it could help paint a more clear picture of how successful the DC may be.

Certainly, many legacy owners will convert, but that is not going to fill the money couffers for Marriott.  They need, new, fresh, first time points buyers to come in and purchase 1000s of the multiple millions of points they have for sale.  When this happens, Marriott can expand and open up more points (like Disney is doing with KoOlina).

Obviously all of the timeshares were originally bought from Marriott, but where is the percentage at now?

I think back in the 80s and early 90s, timesharing was a popular fad where resorts quickly sold inventory (correct me if I'm wrong).  Marriott DC is trying to reinvent that feel, giving more options to the new generation of internet users who "Orbitz Matrix" everything in their life.

If resales (not from Marriott) make up 50% of the total timeshares, it would show that people would possibly not place the kind of value into timesharing that Marriott is requesting from its new DC program.  I cannot compare the pricing of Marriott to other programs, but I get the feeling that it is much higher (minus the Ritz and other elites).

It would be interesting to get some feedback on this.  I agree, the Marriott sales team from what I have heard and seen know how to get into the minds of perspective buyers and get them to commit.  But it is going to take more for this program to succeed than just daily "block and tackles" and a fired up sales force.  

My gut feeling says that Marriott will offer additional incentives after the end of the year to bring people in.


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## dougp26364 (Aug 23, 2010)

JimC said:


> Doug, I agree.  But based on the comments above I don't think that is what Marriott is doing.  I think Marriott is focused on a price point (under $14,000 or possibly a monthly payment target using their financing) where they believe they can close sufficient deals to meet revenue goals.



Actually, I think we agree. Marriott is taking short term goals of profits now at the expense of longer term goals of a creating a stong foundation along with a healthy bottom line. They're selling out the future to make a buck today. Wallstreet and the big bankers recently got caught doing the same thing. Eventually that house of cards falls, leaving everyone else holding the bag. 

Those who impliment such systems make big profits quickly, then move on with an impressive resume. Unfortunately no one take the time to look at the damage caused by taking short term profits over long term foundation building. 

Burn people now and they won't come back. Cultivate a healthy customer relationship and you build a solid foundation that will work for you into the future. Marriott is trying to make short term profits at the risk of long term health.


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## davewasbaloo (Aug 24, 2010)

I don't really think the DC is aiming at legacy owners like us. There has to be an offer there for us, but I think this is about how they can bring new owners in at a lesser price point, taking advantage of the current market. How many weeks do they think they can sell at $35k for an ownership. Also look at how many owners do not actually use their weeks, or only partially do so. I think they are trying to change the product to bring in new owners.

If you speak to someone that has never owned and give them flexibility to travel to all the different resorts and buy the right amount for their needs, it could be very appealing. If they did not skim and worked it like the Asia club, I do not think we would have had the back lash.

And some of the biggest backlash also seems to be from owners that have gotten lucky with interval locking off and trading their studio for a 2 or 3 bed (something I have always felt is very unfair anyway). 

If they did something about the skimming issue and gave guarantees about not changing the point values so people were able to get what they originally bought, I would actually endorse the new proposition.

What concerns me, is no one (on here or at Marriott) can seem to answer how the relationship between DC and Europe will work. A number of European owners bought with the view they could trade to the other resorts, and I know from my visits here in Europe that a number of Americans trade into Europe. I wonder how this is now going to work.


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## MALC9990 (Aug 24, 2010)

Asia2000 said:


> Here is a question for the expert TUGGERS:
> 
> What percentage of all Marriott timeshares are currently
> 
> ...



Marriott ALWAYS offers incentives when selling, whether weeks or points. When I bought my weeks in Phuket, the incentive was mega hundreds of thousands of MRPs and a platinum MR card to go with them.

When I bought MVCIAP points the incentive was Marriott weeks deposited in II - 1 week for every 12,000 points purchased, and a discount on the price of the points and an exchange rate of 5 MR points for every MVCIAP point if I want to exchange to MR points in any year.

A more recent incentive was  "Buy a few more points and we will let you exchange your weeks at Phuket Beach Club for MVCIAP points each year if you wish and we will give you the FULL point value for your week at NO CHARGE" 

So if I want to go to Ko Olina whhich is in the MVCIAP then I simoly cash in a week or two at Phuket Beach Club for MV|CIAP points and use the MVCIAP booking system to get time at Ko Olina - at no extra cost.

Another recent incentive on using the MVCIAP points - exchanging MVCIAP points for weeks deposioted in II - 50% rate of points for the week to be booked. MVCIAP do however choose the week to be booked and deposited - but it was a pretty high TDI week for Mai Khao Beach Club. So for 24,000 MVCIAP points I got two High TDI weeks at Mai Khao beach banked in II with a two year life span whci I aim to trade for a trip to the USA.

So the message will always be "Buy Now before the incentive dissappears and the price goes up". BUT, the incentives don't go away they just change and the price - well for weeks it DID always go up. So I expect the price for DC points to rise in the future.


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## dougp26364 (Aug 24, 2010)

opps........


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## Herb33 (Aug 24, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> It's apparent to me from what I've read thus far that they're pushing rather than selling. Pushing may have short term benefits but often does long term damage. Selling might be harder but, you achieve better long term results and happier customers who enjoy giving referals.



Having sat through the presentation and succumbed to the manufactured sense of urgency, I heartily endorse this point of view.

As compared to the MVC deeded week presentations I've been through over the years, there was far more pushing going on.  

With a much more complex product in the offing, the opposite should have been true.  The fact that it was not speaks volumes about the lack of confidence Marriott has in the product.  And should serve as a huge red flag to others who may find themselves across the table from a sales rep pushing DC.


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## jerseyfinn (Aug 24, 2010)

davewasbaloo said:


> I don't really think the DC is aiming at legacy owners like us. There has to be an offer there for us, but I think this is about how they can bring new owners in at a lesser price point, taking advantage of the current market. How many weeks do they think they can sell at $35k for an ownership. Also look at how many owners do not actually use their weeks, or only partially do so. I think they are trying to change the product to bring in new owners.



Not an answer to your question Dave, but I'll toss some figures out from a Feb 26th 2008 Marriott Analysts report about timeshare and what Marriott was projecting. Of course this is just at the moment when the economy is ready to come to a dead stop. So it also demonstrates how large corporations were as oblivious to the pending recession as we MVC mortals were.  

These figures reflect 2007 stats and the good old days. So it is interesting to see where these figures might stand now and in the near future into which Destinations attempts to grow.

*MVC Owners Age*

 > 65  = 9%
 56-65 = 23%
 46-55 = 30%
 36-45 = 26%


*Income ( in thousands $ USD )*

 > $250K  = 9%
 $150-$250K = 28%
 $100-$149K = 27%
 $75-$99K = 14%
 <$75K = 22%

Two Million timeshare households in USA, over 300,000 MVC households USA

*2007 Usage*

 Home Resort =30%
 other MVCI resort = 28%
 MR Popints = 22%

So 80% of 2007 usage stays "in house" with Marriott

*2007 Contract Sales*

 Owners adding weeks  = 34%
 Owner Referrals =  20%
 New Customer = 46%

Owners Drive MVC sales.

Now I'm an anesthetist and I do have a history degree so I can tell the story of Marriott. But I'll make a few feeble economic and other comments despite not being an analyst.


We're not looking back too far in time to see how robust MVC once was and why Marriott was planning additional MVC resorts.
The recession falls upon us, and MVC sales slow to a trickle. 
The days of MVC owners unabashedly  adding weeks ( reloads in Marriott lexicon ) are gone and so too the legions of referrals as all are holding onto their wallets.
I get an up close look at how Oceana Palms sales go at a resort launched just before the recession strikes. 
 Oceana Palms sales begin in January 2008. Working through recorded deeds between January 2008 and 30 August 2008 there are 411 sales contracts for a total of 457 weeks sold. 
Through August of 2009 total sales contracts equal 1039 ( I'm too lazy to add up the total weeks at this specific moment). 
 Bottom line at Oceana Palms as of *August 2009* is 1039 contracts for 3640 availible weeks in building number one. I also have 2010 figures but must recheck them, but I would say that as of June 2010 Oceana Palms was likely approachin @ 50% sold.
Destinations was an idea/concept that was already in the Marriott pipeline prior to the recession.  
A good question to ask is if Destinations is originally conceived as an *adjunct* program to address a points-oriented market such as Asia while continuing to grow out the MVC stable of resorts or was Destinations always conceived as a *full replacement* for MVC. Of course the recession makes the call for Marriott on that one.
Destinations appears to be a product aimed at a younger audiance which prefers mobility and the ability to do momentary things ( a nice way to say "lacks a committment to things" but this reveals my own age & world view  ).
 My own bias adisde, Destinations attempts to more closely meld the timeshare resorts into the mainstream Marriott hotel resort products and MR program to offer more destination travel flexibility.
Marriott puts the brakes on new TS construction or bulid-out. Oceana Palms appears to be one of a handful of exceptions at this moment.
Destinations need an improving economy to wrest money out of the wallets of the next wave of destination travelers who are less connected to place and more focused upon flexibility.
the old and the new should coexist for an indeterminant time before their interests begin to collide
Marriott is hoping for the best and does possess the skill and expertise to run parallel programs . . . for ? years ?  
We MVC folks can go on with business as usual as we take our time to figure out how much of Destinations we wish to assimilate . . . but do not fall asleep at the wheel :zzz: 

Just a few quick thoughts as Dave's comments "awaken" something in me.

Barry


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## Swice (Aug 24, 2010)

*personal experience*

One of the big stumbling blocks before we bought our first Marriott timeshare was the fact that it was a "weeks" based system.

A Marriott direct salesman, Jim Dinda, actually met us and took us to see Sabel Palms to show us how the "older" properties were maintained.   Our biggested objection at that time was the "weeks" system.   We noted that all of Marriott's competitiors at the time had started switching to a "points" system.    We didn't want to be "locked" into a seven night stay anywhere.

Well, we ended up buying Marriott and actually found we liked the "weeks" system.    Yes, the theory of points sounds good.    But after "experiencing" weeks, we don't think we would have many short stays.   With a short stay, I'm really not going to use the kitchen much and despite the fact that we're spoiled by timeshare space, we can handle a regular hotel room for two or three nights.

Yes, we could zoom down to Myrtle Beach or Hilton Head for a long weekend, but other than that... we'd have to get on a plane to go anywhere else.   If I spend money on four airline tickets, you can bet I'd stay for a week.   I guess the argument could be made that I could "change" my check-in days using points to grab a cheaper airfare.   

So, those are just my thoughts after experiencing timeshares and preparing to hear the "sales" force arguments for points.

(yes, I'd switch to points if there was more value.   I like the idea.   But any "fee" savings will be eaten up by the higher maint fee costs every year.   Plus, I won't even go into the skim.)


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## Herb33 (Aug 24, 2010)

With a short stay, I'm really not going to use the kitchen much and despite the fact that we're spoiled by timeshare space, we can handle a regular hotel room for two or three nights.​
This is why I've said we wouldn't mind trading down to 1BR or studio (where possible) when using DC points for short stays.  Which helps stretch out the points usage. 

But you're absolutely right.  You can accomplish the same thing with hotel bookings, no fees, and A LOT more inventory to choose from.


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## dougp26364 (Aug 24, 2010)

Swice said:


> One of the big stumbling blocks before we bought our first Marriott timeshare was the fact that it was a "weeks" based system.
> 
> A Marriott direct salesman, Jim Dinda, actually met us and took us to see Sabel Palms to show us how the "older" properties were maintained.   Our biggested objection at that time was the "weeks" system.   We noted that all of Marriott's competitiors at the time had started switching to a "points" system.    We didn't want to be "locked" into a seven night stay anywhere.
> 
> ...



The only time we've done short stays have been when the resort was within driving distance (Branson or Breckenridge) or, when it was a cheap airline flight (Vegas) and buying airline tickets for less than a weeks stay at a timeshare has only happened twice since 1998. Needless to say, the short stay option would be nice but, the built in loss in points (getting fewer points than it takes to reserve our home resort) will keep us from converting any of our weeks to points. IMHO, Marriott really messed up when they attempted to redo the seasons and gave fewer points than it takes to reserve in the owners original season in most cases. This one mistake on Marriott's part will keep many legacy weeks owners from joining and, those that do join will likely join for one fee vs ala carte pricing, electing to leave their weeks in the weeks based system rather than converting into the points system.


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## Herb33 (Aug 25, 2010)

Just spent an hour on the phone with the Director of Customer Advocacy at MVCI HQ.  He called me in response to an email I sent thru the MVC web site.  We discussed a number of issues of concern to me.  I found his explanations and his answers to my questions to be forthright, knowledgeable, and helpful, if not completely to my liking.  Nothing he told me with respect to my concerns would qualify as shocking news in this forum, so I won't bore you with details.   But I have to say I'm quite impressed with this level of response from a corporate exec.  I didn't ask for it, and I probably would have been satisfied with an email reply from a staffer.

One statistical tidbit he seemed pleased to reveal:  to date, 50% of MVC legacy owners who have sat down for face-to-face sales presentations have bought into the new program and enrolled one or more weeks.  He told me it's too soon to detect any significant trends in this number.  I did not ask what the goal is for this statistic and he didn't tell me.


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## flyboy0681 (Aug 31, 2010)

*Success Rate*

I've been all over the web trying to make sense of the new DC program but one important question that I have hasn't been answered anywhere.

For those that have signed up, what is their success rate for getting the property of their choice during the week of their choice? Is there anybody out there that has actually tried to book a full 7 days using the new program?

I sent a message to MVCI asking if there was any way for me to view the availability of inventory using the new points system and was told there wasn't and that a phone call would need to be made to MVCI. This really turned me off because I would be more inclined to join if I knew that I stood a better chance of getting the property that I want, when I wanted it, but alas there's no way of knowing. Having been an owner for 15 years and getting shut out of just about all of my exchange requests, I was hoping the points system would level the playing field by resulting in better exchange opportunities but I guess there's really no way of telling.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 31, 2010)

flyboy0681 said:


> I've been all over the web trying to make sense of the new DC program but one important question that I have hasn't been answered anywhere.
> 
> For those that have signed up, what is their success rate for getting the property of their choice during the week of their choice? Is there anybody out there that has actually tried to book a full 7 days using the new program?
> 
> I sent a message to MVCI asking if there was any way for me to view the availability of inventory using the new points system and was told there wasn't and that a phone call would need to be made to MVCI. This really turned me off because I would be more inclined to join if I knew that I stood a better chance of getting the property that I want, when I wanted it, but alas there's no way of knowing. Having been an owner for 15 years and getting shut out of just about all of my exchange requests, I was hoping the points system would level the playing field by resulting in better exchange opportunities but I guess there's really no way of telling.



Points Reservations - July 26th

Points Reservations - July 27

Enrolled owners have been able to make successful Points reservations since the first day Marriott began taking calls.  The two threads above are from the first two days; if you wade through you'll find details of the reservations as well as the insanely long wait time on the phone the first day, some questions and answers about the Wait List and use of the 800 incentive points, etc...  There are also later threads with some follow-ups of Wait List requests being successfully fulfilled.

What we've found is that although the my-vacationclub.com system isn't yet equipped to make online reservations, the set-up seems to be in place for it to be available at a later date - we're all hoping like you are that we'll eventually be able to see Points inventory online.  As well, our new/corporate II accounts appear to be exactly the same as our old/individual ones and we are able to search for Weeks exchanges in the same manner.

There are so many TUG threads about the new Destination Club!  You can use the Search - Advanced feature with specific terms to get answers for any more questions, or ask here and we'll try to find things for you.

Good luck with your decision!


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## flyboy0681 (Aug 31, 2010)

*Success Rate*

Thanks for the reply Susan. I did do some searches but guess not the right ones.

I read through each of the postings (which took a very long time) and took away a few things:

1. Legacy and Trust points do not co-mingle so availability in the Legacy system may be difficult.

2. An awful lot of people are borrowing from future years to get into the resort of their choice. I think this is dangerous because they will be perpetually exchanging every two to three years. This is no different than a payday loan, which has to be paid back with the next paycheck and doing so leaves one without a paycheck for that period.

3. The wait list thing is very troubling. I don't see it any different than selecting several choices with Interval. When one becomes available, it's yours (maybe).

Although the wait time on the phone has eased somewhat, there are still people waiting hours.

I think I will take a wait and see attitude before jumping into this one.

Thanks again for the link, it was very helpful.


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## kjd (Aug 31, 2010)

I am unaware of any unusual tightness in the availability of legacy weeks in II.  I have just about made all of my trades and deposits for 2011.  For every DC points owner who deposits with the trust and then borrows points from the future it is one less owner competing with me for the II inventory.  That's fine with me.

I hope that II makes good on its' statements to bring in more premium weeks from non-Marriott timeshares.  If they do that and award more AC's or XYZ's at the same time I think all of us left in II will be very happy.  I think II will sweeten the pie to keep us in their program.


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## flyboy0681 (Sep 1, 2010)

*Success Rate*

That's an excellent point which I didn't think about. Any DC user that borrows from next year will essentially be adding a week to the system. We just have to hope that Marriott doesn't keep the unit for themselves for distribution to DC users only.


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## hotcoffee (Sep 1, 2010)

flyboy0681 said:


> That's an excellent point which I didn't think about. Any DC user that borrows from next year will essentially be adding a week to the system. We just have to hope that Marriott doesn't keep the unit for themselves for distribution to DC users only.



Not sure what you mean here; but any week involved in a DC points election will go into the points exchange inventory.  It would not be available for either a weeks reservation at the resort or a direct II exchange.  The only way it might become available for an indirect II exchange would be if Marriott were to use it themselves for an II exchange to satisfy another points exchanger.


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## flyboy0681 (Sep 1, 2010)

*Success Rate*

Since the owner is borrowing from their next years use, they will not be physically able to use it so it will be forced to be placed into the inventory system. Keep in mind that anyone that borrows will occupy only one week over the next two years where they would normally have gotten to occupy two had they not borrowed.

The are essentially giving up one week, which really sucks. I didn't buy into the system to occupy every other year, otherwise I would have bought an EOY share at half the price.


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## SueDonJ (Sep 1, 2010)

But on the flip side you'll have people who convert to Points and get more than one week's vacation.  For example, I converted one Week and got a 6-day stay plus I still have 2050 Points remaining to use in 2011 or bank them to 2012.  Granted I haven't exchanged a Week for a full 7 days, but my 6-day stay is still going to remove a Week inventory from GO's Plat season, isn't it?  Of course - short stays with Marriott DC Points exchanges into non-Trust resorts work the same way as II Short Stays in that the inventory for short stays can only be available if an owner has given up a Week.  And then come 2011 or 2012, whatever short stay I book with my remaining Points will remove inventory again from the Week pool, without impacting whatever Weeks/Points usage I get with my other Weeks.


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## hotcoffee (Sep 1, 2010)

flyboy0681 said:


> Since the owner is borrowing from their next years use, they will not be physically able to use it so it will be forced to be placed into the inventory system. Keep in mind that anyone that borrows will occupy only one week over the next two years where they would normally have gotten to occupy two had they not borrowed.
> 
> The are essentially giving up one week, which really sucks. I didn't buy into the system to occupy every other year, otherwise I would have bought an EOY share at half the price.



I disagree with your conclusion.  The person who borrows points from the subsequent year does so to improve his next vacation.  That does not "suck".  If he were not willing to lose the points in the subsequent year, he would not do it.

I myself am thinking of borrowing even more points than I have already borrowed from 2012 so that I might be able to extend my 2011 Hawaii vacation to two weeks if I can find a adjoining week somewhere.  That would still leave me with as many as 1850 points in 2012 for a cheaper vacation somewhere closer to home (which is what I would do after the more expensive Hawaiian vacation).

I think being able to do things like adds a very useful option to the regular home resort reservations.


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## flyboy0681 (Sep 2, 2010)

*Success Rate*

All of your points are well taken, however, one doesn't need to read between the lines when looking at the dozens upon dozens of posts here to get a feeling of what's really going on. A central theme runs through them (in my opinion) that a lot of owners just don't get enough DC points from their resort to make for the getaway that they want and as a result need to borrow from next year to put them over the top. While it's true that they may have some points left over, I don't think it's enough for another full week. Those in the enviable position of owning a high demand week at a high demand resort will obviously fare better than most.

If there were one thing that I found to be inequitable about the new points system it has to be that a lot of times the points that are assigned for ones week don't equal the number of points required to stay that very week. For example, I own at Desert Springs and earn 2375. But if I wanted to stay at my home resort for my week, it requires more than that and I don't think that's very fair.

Only time will tell how this all plays out.


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## csalter2 (Sep 2, 2010)

flyboy0681 said:


> All of your points are well taken, however, one doesn't need to read between the lines when looking at the dozens upon dozens of posts here to get a feeling of what's really going on. A central theme runs through them (in my opinion) that a lot of owners just don't get enough DC points from their resort to make for the getaway that they want and as a result need to borrow from next year to put them over the top. While it's true that they may have some points left over, I don't think it's enough for another full week. Those in the enviable position of owning a high demand week at a high demand resort will obviously fare better than most.
> 
> If there were one thing that I found to be inequitable about the new points system it has to be that a lot of times the points that are assigned for ones week don't equal the number of points required to stay that very week. For example, I own at Desert Springs and earn 2375. But if I wanted to stay at my home resort for my week, it requires more than that and I don't think that's very fair.
> 
> Only time will tell how this all plays out.



You can just use your week and stay at your own resort so the additional points don't even affect you. In addition, I just started a thread today that talks about you can still trade to another resort that may require more points than your property is worth by using the weeks system within the DC. So although you may own at DSV with 2375 points, you can still trade into my Ko Olina worth 4025 points using weeks. According to what was shared to me it's not going through II but your VOA if you are in the DC.


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## m61376 (Sep 2, 2010)

csalter2 said:


> You can just use your week and stay at your own resort so the additional points don't even affect you. In addition, I just started a thread today that talks about you can still trade to another resort that may require more points than your property is worth by using the weeks system within the DC. So although you may own at DSV with 2375 points, you can still trade into my Ko Olina worth 4025 points using weeks. According to what was shared to me it's not going through II but your VOA if you are in the DC.


That seems to be a big question- will a legacy week being traded as a week for another week go through the DC or trade via II? I was told something similar to what you were told, yet I was told this was not the case by another Marriott official. I think this is a big question and I am surprised it hasn't drawn more attention.


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## hotcoffee (Sep 2, 2010)

There is no doubt that having a lot of points is what makes the system the most valuable.  It's nice to be able to borrow enough points for a two week vacation in one year and still have enough points in the year borrowed from for a single week vacation at a lesser resort.

If you don't get a lot of points for your legacy week, the primary value in joining the program will be the flexibility of shorter stays, mid-week check-ins/check-outs, and taking every-other-year vacations at resorts better than your own.  These who bought their weeks via resale will also gain access to the MRP program.  If those things are not valuable additions to the standard weeks program, then one would be better off not enrolling.

The program is not for everyone; but where one gains a benefit, it is potentially a significant benefit.


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## abouna (Sep 4, 2010)

What do people think about this, I have a one week, one-bedroom at Maui Ocean Club. We have used it most years and had no problem renting it others. We usually reserve President's week, however, as the kids get older, it will be more difficult to make the trip from the East coast (we knew that when we bought before they opened and plan to use other options). They are offering 3900 points for my week. I am leaning heavily toward not opting into the new system as with our week in Maui, we can often get a two bedroom and always get a bonus week from II. We would basically loose a good chance for a two bedroom at other places like Waiohai or Spain through II as we would never have enough points for such a thing, but I though I would seek others advice.


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## kjd (Sep 6, 2010)

My conclusion from this discussion is that you've got to hand it to Marriott. They have existing owners agreeing to take less than a 7 day vacation week trade and paying Marriott more money for the privilege to do it.  That is, unless you are an owner who is willing to "trade-down" and take less. Then you'll have points for a few more days.  If you are short points you can always take out a "pay-day loan" from yourself.

Owners should put aside the talk of "Destination Club", "points trust" and "legacy ownership".  It's all a diversion.  The sale of points to get what you were promised and should have gotten with your original purchase, is nothing more than a price increase.  Marriott hasn't given you anything for that extra money except another promise.   Except for the one-time points "bonus".

If they talked 50% of the "legacy owners" into purchasing points after a face to face presentation as previously mentioned, I'd say that Marriott is doing exceptionally well with their new program roll-out.  Fear of the unknown must really work as a sales tactic.


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## nspils (Sep 6, 2010)

Abouna:

You do not lose the ability to trade your week through II by enrolling your week with the DC program. The benefit that we saw with the points is that we can (theoretically) use points to buy on a night by night basis rather than only dealing with weeks, greatly increasing our flexibility in travel and vacation, while still being assured of having our week any year we want to use it, or to trade through II if we want a full week (usually with an AC too) at a non-Marriott resort or even non-enrolled Marriott week when we want to.


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## DanCali (Sep 6, 2010)

nspils said:


> Abouna:
> 
> You do not lose the ability to trade your week through II by enrolling your week with the DC program. The benefit that we saw with the points is that we can (theoretically) use points to buy on a night by night basis rather than only dealing with weeks, greatly increasing our flexibility in travel and vacation, while still being assured of having our week any year we want to use it, or to trade through II if we want a full week (usually with an AC too) at a non-Marriott resort or even non-enrolled Marriott week when we want to.



There are valid points but it's worth noting that:

1) We do not know yet if enrolled members' "II requests" actually go through II or get filled by a VOA through DC inventory. Marriott may say it doesn't ultimately matter as long as you get your week, but if you care about ACs and II 2-for-1 weeks then it does matter. We'll know better once enrolled members actually make weeks exchange requests.

2) You do gain the flexibility you describe, to the extent the "night-by-night" exchanges are available. We don't really know how/when Marriott decides to make exchnages available in this system. It appears that often you will be asked to give up your week and any reservation you had, get on a waitlist, and hope for the best - even if you requested a trust resort, which should be available when you call.

3) If you do mostly use your week, then getting the flexibility you describe is usually unnecessary and pretty expensive - a large upfront cost + $200/year in fees. 

4) And there are of course the additional indirect costs associated with actually using the system...


I too have toyed with the idea of enrolling quite a bit for some of the reasons that you mentioned. I'd also get the 13 month point booking privilege if I enrolled and the ability to convert to MRPs, which I don't currently have. But in the end, the negatives outweighed the positives (for me) and there are also still too many unknowns at this point.


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## pwrshift (Sep 6, 2010)

I like creature comforts of full service hotels for short stays and as platinum i can book the lowest priced room and always get upgraded to at least concierge level and on weekends they throw in a nice wine and cheese platter and breakfast.  On our way down to Hilton Head three of us stayed Friday night for $93 with our 2 dogs and got upgraded to a 2 bdrm suite...with $40 credit against room service breakfast thrown in.  Even turn down service too...and we just phoned down for dinners in the room so as not to leave the dogs.  A one night stand in a TS pales in comparison.

As we can't take pets to TS weeks we rented a beautiful 3 bdrm VRBO home in Sea Pines for 7 nights for $1495 that also has a private pool. Spa, use of 2 bikes, garage, etc.  As we often drive to our vacations it doesn't make sense to me to have short stays in TS and miss out on the luxuries, so I'd get absolutely no benefit out of such TS stays except for the exercise that comes with making our own beds and meals.  

Brian


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## EZ-ED (Sep 6, 2010)

abouna said:


> What do people think about this, I have a one week, one-bedroom at Maui Ocean Club. We have used it most years and had no problem renting it others. We usually reserve President's week, however, as the kids get older, it will be more difficult to make the trip from the East coast (we knew that when we bought before they opened and plan to use other options). They are offering 3900 points for my week. I am leaning heavily toward not opting into the new system as with our week in Maui, we can often get a two bedroom and always get a bonus week from II. We would basically loose a good chance for a two bedroom at other places like Waiohai or Spain through II as we would never have enough points for such a thing, but I though I would seek others advice.



Sounds like Bill Marriott may be changing his name to David Seigal with this new program.

ewwww!!!!


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## Jeffrey (Sep 6, 2010)

*55:45 split*



jerseyfinn said:


> *2007 Contract Sales*
> 
> Owners adding weeks  = 34%
> Owner Referrals =  20%
> ...



At my presentation this week in Waiohai it was stated that according to the latest figures 55% is from owners adding weeks and from owner's referrals.  New customers is 45%.

Is this still (or again) consistent with 2007 or just a scrath in their LP ?


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## flyboy0681 (Sep 6, 2010)

*Success Rate*



kjd said:


> My conclusion from this discussion is that you've got to hand it to Marriott. They have existing owners agreeing to take less than a 7 day vacation week trade and paying Marriott more money for the privilege to do it.  That is, unless you are an owner who is willing to "trade-down" and take less. Then you'll have points for a few more days.  If you are short points you can always take out a "pay-day loan" from yourself.
> 
> Owners should put aside the talk of "Destination Club", "points trust" and "legacy ownership".  It's all a diversion.  The sale of points to get what you were promised and should have gotten with your original purchase, is nothing more than a price increase.  Marriott hasn't given you anything for that extra money except another promise.   Except for the one-time points "bonus".
> 
> If they talked 50% of the "legacy owners" into purchasing points after a face to face presentation as previously mentioned, I'd say that Marriott is doing exceptionally well with their new program roll-out.  Fear of the unknown must really work as a sales tactic.





I tend to agree with kjd. 

I'm going to stay put for the time being but will continue to see how the new program is working out for others. Other than not getting the signup "Bonus", there really isn't any rush.


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## Asia2000 (Sep 7, 2010)

kjd said:


> That is, unless you are an owner who is willing to "trade-down" and take less. Then you'll have points for a few more days.  If you are short points you can always take out a "pay-day loan" from yourself.



I agree somewhat.  However, what is a "trade-down" for Marriott is not necessarily a "trade-down" for the deed holder.  This is where the points program can be a plus.  Also, if you live near a particular resort, or near several resorts (Hilton Head, Palm Desert, Orlando, etc), it may be a big boost to stay five nights (Sunday through Thursday) at a heavily reduced cost.  
Then, there is the guy who just has to have the newest offering and will pay for it, just to know mentally, that they have the latest.



kjd said:


> If they talked 50% of the "legacy owners" into purchasing points after a face to face presentation as previously mentioned, I'd say that Marriott is doing exceptionally well with their new program roll-out.  Fear of the unknown must really work as a sales tactic.



If very few people try for upgrades and flexchanges (of which I've been told by many people), my guess is that talking legacy owners into the points is an easy sell.  Fear of the unknown may be working, or trusting in the unknown may be another angle (concerning inventory and trade-ability).


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## wasatchpowder (Sep 24, 2010)

By going to a points system, Marriott is effectively diluting the value of my Marriott week.  Over the years I have been able to use the lockoff option of my Park City summer week to turn it into two weeks. I have been able to trade a 1 br master for a 2 br unit at Hilton Head. I have been able to trade the 1 br studio for a 2 br unit in off season at Park City.

With a points system this would be impossible to work such a great deal. The points at your home resort will never trade equally for another resort. For example, this year I traded my 2 br unit for a 2 br unit Christmas week in Palm Springs. It would have cost me 2 years of points to be able to swing that deal on the points system.

I've seen how the points system works with Wyndham. They touted all the advantages of how flexible a point system was. I signed up for a two year try before you buy.  What I found is their rules wouldn't let me book less than a 7 night stay more than 90 days out. So, by the time I waited to be within 90 days, there weren't 3 or 4 days in a row that I could book.  They will put you on a wait list and maybe you'll get lucky. Plus, the points per night can potentially change at each resort from year to year. Further diluting your week's value.

Sorry Marriott, but you've diluted your product with a points system.


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## dmharris (Sep 25, 2010)

wasatchpowder said:


> By going to a points system, Marriott is effectively diluting the value of my Marriott week.  Over the years I have been able to use the lockoff option of my Park City summer week to turn it into two weeks. I have been able to trade a 1 br master for a 2 br unit at Hilton Head. I have been able to trade the 1 br studio for a 2 br unit in off season at Park City.
> 
> With a points system this would be impossible to work such a great deal. The points at your home resort will never trade equally for another resort.




I agree completely.  I've traded up every time except once using my lock off and even with the 59 day flex change.  Aruba was the only place I got a lock off for a lock off.  We've gotten two weeks every year for our one week 2 bedroom lock-off.  My Grande Vista lock off/1 bedroom has gotten me several 2 bedrooms, Waiohai, Grande Ocean, Newport Coast twice, my lock-off at GV traded into II and got a 2 bedroom, plus Hyatt Carmel Highlands.  With points, I would at best get one week a year and maybe not even enough points for that.  

Has anyone been offered a free AC from II recently?  We got one (and have never received one in the past) to be used by Jan.23.  I traded it for a week at Grande Ocean end of Oct.  I think they were bribing me into staying with the weeks system.  It's working!

Help me out here; what's a 'legacy owner'?  

Thanks!


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## DanCali (Sep 25, 2010)

dmharris said:


> Help me out here; what's a 'legacy owner'?
> 
> Thanks!



Every weeks owner is a "legacy owner". We own a product that is no longer sold as "new" and is therefore obsolete, or at least presented as such, by Marriott...


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## jerseyfinn (Oct 1, 2010)

Nice to see the vibrant discussions going on here about the implications of Destinations Club. Some of the themes/ideas which stand out to me are:



dougp26364 said:


> . . .  I've come to a rule of thumb that most families need, at a minimum, the typical number of points for a two bedroom exchange through Interval  . . .  that would mean that Marriott salesmen should be pushing 3,000 to 4,000 points as an initial purchase, falling back to 1,500 points and using the EOY approach only as a last resort or, as a low ball way to get people into the program



This hits the nail on the head in terms of how a traditional TS owner would measure the " relative value" of DC or any destination travel program. That NYer whom I refer to in my OP quickly figures out that 1500 VC points won't do much of anything for him. Marriott is obviously tip-toeing around this issue with their sales presentations as they are indeed keying on a "hot spot" of 1500 VC points for $13800, a price point which Marriott research feels is where they could sell. 

But that savvy NYer instantly recognized that the best way into DC for him is via purchase of a resale MVC week as in an unfettered resale market ( or one which behaves as it did prior to December 2007 ). Of course Marriott has ( necessarily?? ) slammed that door shut both in the purchaser's face as well as the MVC resale owner's face in terms of resale transactions coming into DC.  I'm not quite sure how to interpret this as Marriott clearly does not want a flood of resale weeks entering the picture. That said, Marriott should not assume that it can slam the DC door on developer purchasers who eventually seek to sell their weeks.  They were hard-selling MVC weeks up until the day they introduce DC, a somewhat disingenuous postion. And they do the same thing right now in Europe where they entice Europeans ( and Americans wishing to purchse MVCI weeks through them ) while it is only a matter of time before MVC resorts in Europe also become DC-only programs.

Note the price metric that Marriott brings to the DC points program. It closely mirrrors the same metric which Marriott utilizes to set prices for MVC developer weeks up to the day they announce DC.  An Ocean Pointe 2BR plat week is offered 4325 VC points for enrollment in DC. which multiplied by the DC $9.20 per VC point metric prices out to $39,790 -- almost exactly where the developer price was set prior to DC springing to life. Check your weeks and what DC offers you for enrolling them and compare them to the last developer prices and you'll find that Marriott is selling the DC program at essentially the same price. And this is good news for we legacy owners as we can see where Marriott is attempting to establish a price. That they do so with a points-based, incremental stay program is secondary to legacy owners who simply want to stand pat in the old program.



davewasbaloo said:


> I don't really think the DC is aiming at legacy owners like us. There has to be an offer there for us, but I think this is about how they can bring new owners in at a lesser price point . . .



Actually yes and no. I think that Marriott sets low expectations that over 300,000 legacy MVC owners will come running in through the DC door smiling and skipping. Those MVC owners who are *value conscious* will not find DC appealing as the lower fees only work if you trade a lot of the time, and MR point redemption ratios are unfavorable for most in DC as oppossed to the legacy program where the metric remains a guarnateed MR point redemption measured against your MF.  However, a legacy owner who is *flexibility conscious* might find DC something to dabble with. IMO, only those who own 3 or more MVC weeks might want to ponder enrolling one of their weeks as the trade off in actual usage days is steep.

Also take note of the MF metric. We MVC owners pay a set MF.  An Ocean Pointe 2 BR plat owner pays @ $1250 ( an approximate recollection from last year ). A *DC member *who antes up the money to purchase those equivilant  4325 VC points I mention in my above statement for enrolling an Ocean Pointe week would be assessed an annual MF totaling $1730 ( 40 cents x 4325 ). Keep in mind that a DC assessment reflects only a calculated MF and not a specific resort MF, but these numbers measure the same metric.

Once again, my remarks here are intended to demonstrate relative comparisons of the differences which will continue to exist as Marriott attempts to run two parallel destination travel programs. 



kjd said:


> My conclusion from this discussion is that you've got to hand it to Marriott. They have existing owners agreeing to take less than a 7 day vacation week trade and paying Marriott more money for the privilege to do it . . . .  If you are short points you can always take out a "pay-day loan" from yourself.



Indeed Marriott is attempting to assuage and assure we legacy MVC owners that "all is well with Marriott" ( recall that the guy who tells the running mob in Animal House that everything is OK got run over ). But in truth, things are not OK with this DC transition.

DC is version 1.0 of a destination travel program. I think that most of know that you assiduously avoid version 1.0 of any software program, and I think that most MVC folks are better served by waiting on the sidelines for Marriott to clean up their act while they clarify, tweak and enhance what they can offer MVC folks. There are many unresolved issues here which Marriott necessarily remains mute about at this moment.



kjd said:


> . . . Owners should put aside the talk of "Destination Club", "points trust" and "legacy ownership".  It's all a diversion.



I disagree here.

The concept that MVC owners are missing here is to ask what is Marriott's biggest need of we MVC folks as they erect a parallel destination travel program. Obviously Marriott must assure us that DC will not compete/collide and they must also dangle enticements ( such as lower fees and "presumed flexibility" ).  The questions we must ask is at what cost, both in real dollars and in relative use/enjoyment of our weeks.

*The biggest need that Marriott has for Destinations Club at this early moment is MVCI INVENTORY IN PRIME RESORT DESTINATIONS & SEASONS*

In the early phase of the DC transition, inventory issues will be minimal as Marriott already holds sufficent amounts of inventory at most MVC resorts to dangle before early DC adopters/enrollees. 

Better to ask what sort of inventory Marriott presently holds. Marriott does not control sufficient inventory at specific resorts in specific high demand seasons ( I use Ocean Pointe platinum season where 90% of owners occupy as one example . . . TUGgers can offer other examples ). As the DC program grows, so too will the need for prime resorts and prime destination weeks, and for the most part, it will be from legacy owners enrolling their weeks that Marriott fills the gap. ( An exception is Oceana Palms where Marriott now owns/controls @50% of inventory and this % will increase when they erect the second building which will be wholly Marriott owned -- so Marriott may have at its disposal a sufficient solution to the inventory/demand paradigm in the West Palm region. ) 

So this entire DC program is a work in progress and not a polished product. And it could compete with or harm the interests of MVC owners if we do not fully learn how DC functions while keeping an eye upon our relationship with Marriott as the parallel programs sail astride each other. I'm certainly not going to cede to Marriott any rights or priviliges I paid for in good faith and with my hard earned dollars so that DC may compete with me or hinder my resort experience. 

The sleeping tiger in the room is the ""Trust" which Marriott creates to administer and to implement the DC program. Future decisions about the DC program ( and thus implicit consequences to MVC owners ) will flow from decisions made by this trust. Presently, the trust does not possess sufficient power to upend anything MVC. Do note however, that MVC weeks enrolled in this Trust ( of which DC is the face and personna ) cede their HOA voting rights to Mariott. IOW, at some point in the future, Marriott will own sufficient resort weeks, or they will control sufficient weeks to alter the character of how the inventory at these weeks will function and be apportioned between these two parallel programs. This is not deception on the part of Marriott, but a plain and simple corporate decision to create a vehicle to omake DC function. 

But it also means that we as MVC owner should keep a close watch on how things function at our resorts in terms of inventory allocations between the parallel programs. At this moment, we MVC owners hold the upper hand ( figure that 300,000 discrete MVC owners own some 450,000 total MVC weeks & Marriott the rest). For the near future, I see no problems. But when I look at those VC point redemption tables for prime season weeks, I gotta wonder how long before conflicts develop between MVC vs DC participants.

I'm not saying that Marriott is devious or deceptive by implementing DC. It's a business doing business. But it's also true that the roll out was clumsy and clandestine and Marriott is a bit patronizing to it's MVC owners with those smooth assurances that they've just done something "good" for us.  Perhaps in time, yes, but it's too early to tell.

What is evident is that Marriott pushes hard with MVC until the last second and is increduloulsy reassuring after the change ( and believe me, MVC Europe will come into DC just as soon as they figure out the legal vagaraties of Europe ). It's not bad news, but rather a wake up call for MVC folks to go slow with DC.  We've got equity and value in our MVC weeks and we need assurances that this value remains intact. Some developer owners may want to push Marriott to unlock the resale door that they have temporarily slammed in the faces of MVC developer purchasers as this more resembles corporate fiat to butter their bread on both sides whilst snatching our slice out of our hands and sending us a bill for so doing. I can understand that Marriott goes slow and cautious in this dour economy, but I also hope that Marriott does not believe that it can "lock out" loyal developer purchasers from selling their weeks in the future -- some of which would address Marriott's own inventory needs.

A lot of verbage by me here, and I apolgize for that. But these are important times and critical issues for TUGgers and MVC owners to ponder. The more we know about the DC program and how it presently functions and what it's needs are, the better informed and better able we are to ask intelligent questions and to posit solutions to our own individual MVC ownership concerns. Nothing is "inevitible" about what Marriott is doing.

At the least we have something intersting to talk about here on TUG while we enjoy using our MVC weeks. We're at MMB right now heading to MUZ tomorrow, so MVC life is just fine for us at the moment. 

Barry


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## puckmanfl (Oct 1, 2010)

good morning...

great analysis....

There are currently just over 14,000 units in the 54 MVCD resorts.  This accounts for the 750,000 TOTAL week units in the entire system.  If owners controlled 750,000 weeks the system would be sold out and there would be no need for DC.

My figures are as follows.  250,000 owners (average of 1.8 weeks/owner) for a total of 450,000 owner/weeks controlled by legacy owners.  This leaves 300,000 units controlled by the developer (some in the trust and some at legacy resorts)  The 440,000 unit thrown about by MVCD is owner/weeks NOT actual owners.


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## windje2000 (Oct 1, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> great analysis....
> 
> ...





> The weeks product has been very successful for us. Based on our owner satisfaction scores and the number of owners who buy additional weeks, I would say that our *370,000 owners worldwide* are clearly pleased with the structure and benefit of our product. Guest preference can also be seen in how our owners use our product each year. Our product provides a myriad of options for owners to choose from, including home resort occupancy, trading to other Marriott Vacation Club properties, exchange within the Marriott family to a Marriott hotel through Marriott Rewards or exchanging outside through Interval International. As you can see, 80 percent of our owners take advantage of a Marriott experience each year. We definitely view this as a tribute to the strength of the overall Marriott brand in our owners’ eyes.
> 
> Yes, our owners love our product and we’re happy to report that their love increases sales and lowers overall marketing and sales costs for us year after year. Over 50 percent of our domestic sales come from our existing owner base, either through owner referrals or owner reloads, which represents either owner upgrades or additional purchases. There is no greater indication of satisfaction than when an existing owner wants more of our product or is willing to refer their friends and families. So as our owner base grows we expect to continue to leverage this low cost channel to drive additional sales volumes. As a point of reference, over *110,000 of our more than 300,000 domestic owners own more than one week* and the *average Marriott Vacation Club owner owns approximately 1.3 weeks.* That number has remained stable over the past few years.



SOURCE:http://investor.shareholder.com/com...008a9&filename=TimeshareTranscript2-26-08.pdf  Page 9

Puck - Just wondering what the source of your data is - the quote above is from a Feb 2008 presentation to Wall Street


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## puckmanfl (Oct 1, 2010)

good morning

The data is as follows...

The 14,000 units in the system come from a previous link/thread on This website...  Just did the math to come up with about 750K unit/weeks in the system...

The 1.8 units/owner average came from an informal poll of sales reps from about 20 tours over the years.

I believe that 1.3 units/owner is low from my anectdotal owner experience. (poolside chats etc.).  It doesn't really matter 370,000 times 1.3 is close to 250 times 1.8.  The point is that there are NOT 450,000 owners just 450,000 owner/units in the system with 300K units unsold.

These 300 K units are in the off seasons legacies and trust resorts...Not many plat ski weeks unsold or winter Ocean Pointe...


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## jerseyfinn (Oct 1, 2010)

Thanks *puckman *for the more refined data . I've corrected my post to better reflect your figures.

Marriott has a nice chunk of the pie to play with so the question remains how many of Marriott's weeks ( which excepting Europe are now all part of the Trust ) are silver or lesser golds throughout the system and at which resorts has Marriott acquired sufficient platinum/gold inventory to spread around weeks for VC people as they build Destination's momentum. 

It remains a good question to ponder at which resorts Marriott would like additional weeks to fill out demand for what are plat and gold weeks in MVC. Of course part of that solution lies with existing MVC owners as those folks who continue to turn weeks in for MR points will be a source for Marriott to acquire some prime weeks on an irregular basis. Will this be sufficient to meet Marriott needs, or will VC demand for specific resorts and specific weeks exceed Marriott's ability to provide them?  Quite logical that Marriott is going to entice MVC to join the party. I guess that as time plays out we will learn how many MVC owners value the flexibility over the loss of usage.  Marriott of course will remain mum as it is in their best interest to get folks to enroll period.  I'm not sure if we MVC folks can divine by next year how this demand/inventory thing is working in DC or if it will take some more time.  No doomsday prediction here, but we MVC folks need to learn how the ownership breaks down by season at our mature ( built out ) resorts just so that we may share info about success/failure in reserving our weeks and see when/if our requests begin to hit the wall. IOW, just how are the HOAs and Marriott going to determine how specific weeks are allocated between the Trust and the individual HOA in future years as DC grows from the outside with non-MVC people coming into the mix as pure VC point users.

Barry


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## Herb33 (Oct 1, 2010)

Stupid question ...

Aside from the enrollment fee and the annual admin fee, does Marriott derive any benefit from the enrollment of legacy weeks if those weeks are never exchanged for DC points?


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## jerseyfinn (Oct 9, 2010)

Herb33 said:


> Stupid question ...
> 
> Aside from the enrollment fee and the annual admin fee, does Marriott derive any benefit from the enrollment of legacy weeks if those weeks are never exchanged for DC points?



Not entirely sure about this as the documents pertaining to the T&C of enrollment read like stereo instructions, but a good question here is does enrolling your weeks confer to Marriott the right to vote your enrolled weeks via the Trust ( which means you the owner do not vote -- then again, typically less than 1/3 of MVC owners take the time to vote in HOA elections etc. but as the years go by, the Trust will wield increasing power).

Just my opinion, but Marriott pushes the idea that the *aggregate *fees with DC are less, but in real terms, only folks who regularly trade their MVC would actually realize meaningful savings in DC compared to the usual $129 Interval per transaction fee ( I might be off a few dollars here ). The MR points exchange via Destinations is mostly a negative outcome versus the fixed redemptions guaranteed via MVC. In addition the only DC members who would reap the most benefits of advance queuing & the ability to reserve single nights well in advance are the premier plus folks ( those who have more than 13,000 DC points to enroll from their MVC weeks ). The other tiers are in a more limited timeframe.

Looks to me like the more typical non-MVCI DC points member might have about 2000 to 2500 VC points to make the program more useful to them. Their annual MF assessment ( 40 cents per VC point ) is much higher than what a MVC owner pays on a relative VC point basis.

A lot things here which need tweaking and reassessment both by Marriott and by MVC owners being prodded to join DC sooner rather than later.

Barry


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