# Security alert Playa del carmen & security concerns in Mexico (merged)



## pianoetudes (Mar 1, 2018)

I have no intention of scaring anyone here. Today I receive an email alert from US embassy Mexico City as follows:

Event: On March 1, undetonated explosive devices were found by Mexican law enforcement on a tourist ferry that operates between Cozumel-Playa del Carmen, Mexico.   On February 21, an explosive device detonated on a tourist ferry in Playa del Carmen resulting in injuries, including to U.S. citizens.  U.S. Government employees are prohibited from using all tourist ferries on this route until further notice.  Mexican and U.S. law enforcement continue to investigate.

I hope everything is ok because I will be visiting Cozumel in April.


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## klpca (Mar 2, 2018)

pianoetudes said:


> I have no intention of scaring anyone here. Today I receive an email alert from US embassy Mexico City as follows:
> 
> Event: On March 1, undetonated explosive devices were found by Mexican law enforcement on a tourist ferry that operates between Cozumel-Playa del Carmen, Mexico.   On February 21, an explosive device detonated on a tourist ferry in Playa del Carmen resulting in injuries, including to U.S. citizens.  U.S. Government employees are prohibited from using all tourist ferries on this route until further notice.  Mexican and U.S. law enforcement continue to investigate.
> 
> I hope everything is ok because I will be visiting Cozumel in April.


We're going in May, but flying in and out of Cozumel, so no ferry for us. There are some very active threads on Tripadvisor on the first incident. To tell the truth, this is giving me pause.


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## PamMo (Mar 2, 2018)

A Reuters article sheds some light on the incidences. Corruption and turf wars seem to be more the issue vs crime/violence directed at tourists. If you're hurt, it doesn't really matter if you were the intended victim or not, though, does it?
www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL2N1QK02K


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## taterhed (Mar 2, 2018)

Yeah, looks like an actual 'explosive' device; was not a very high-order explosive though, from the looks of the video/images.
No one was seriously wounded, but the boat took a real beating.   Best wishes to those affected by the blast.

My guess is it was a significant flash/bang explosive built/designed to really get some serious attention and send a message....
    Reports show that it clearly was Narco-terrorism or an elaborate frame job for Narco-T.

In any case, it's a sign of the (Mexican) times.


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## BC Bum (Mar 2, 2018)

I love Mexico, but my wife will not go. Stories like this are very troubling. Playa and especially Cozumel always seemed so safe. On the whole, they probably still are safe, but many people don't feel comfortable there anymore.


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## moonstone (Mar 2, 2018)

Since we are in Belize right now we get a lot of MX news. The explosion on the ferry was Feb.21st, and we haven't heard any more news since then. The news we are getting down here is saying it was believed to be a gas leak, not terrorist activity. But who knows. They don't want to affect their tourism. We have a friend here who was in Playa at the time and saw the ferry about an hour after the accident. She said she really didn't see any extra security around the ferry docks, or anywhere else around town, and she is planning another trip down in June.


~Diane


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## taterhed (Mar 2, 2018)

Hm. They've had a few security incidents in the last few weeks near the marina.  A group did claim responsibility _after the fact_.
The boat is a common-carriage ferry; diesel powered.   Unless they have propane on board....of course, it could have been fumes from the diesel tank. (not)

I hate to say it, but the circumstances and appearances aren't good

You can watch the video yourself....

The responsibility for the blast was discovered during the early morning hours of February 27 when police in Cozumel received a call that three armed men were attaching an unknown object to a church fence. When police arrived, they discovered a narco-banner in the form of a tarp with a threatening message addressed to the mayor of Cozumel, Perla Tun Pech, claiming responsibility for the blast.  The narco-banner was signed by the Cártel de “El Pumba” y “Tata” and warned the same will happen to the mayor’s home. Besides the signature of “El Pumba” y “Tata,” there was also a “Z,” indicating that the authors of the banner are aligned with Los Zetas drug cartel. Possession of the banner was assumed by the local police who transported it to the state attorney general’s office, according to a local report.

_Barcos Caribe_ is associated with former Quintana Roo Governor Roberto Borge Angulo who, along with two business associates, acquired the ferry line while still in office. After leaving, Borge became a fugitive and was later captured in Panama attempting to board a flight to Paris. He is currently in custody facing corruption charges, according to the BBC.

But, there is more:  this reported yesterday and today:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/explosives-found-mexican-ferry-cozumel-53463724 

The company "Barcos Caribe" reported to the Secretariat of the Navy Navy of Mexico (Semar) the existence of a device, presumably explosive, placed on a (Rudder) on the starboard side at the bottom of its "Caribe II" vessel, anchored together with the "Caribe III" off the coast of Cozumel


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## pittle (Mar 2, 2018)

We will be at the Grand Bliss Riviera Maya for 2 weeks tarting April 20.  We have taken the ferry before, but that has not been on our excursion list. We are planning to spend a lot of time at Mayan World and go to Puerto Morales for late lunch a couple of times.  No guests with us this time so planning for a super leisure vacation of sun, reading with adult beverages.


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## easyrider (Mar 2, 2018)

I had read the Ferry explosion was an accidental explosion but now I guess we all know it wasn't. The Rivera Maya taxi drivers are in a squabble with Ubber drivers and recently they have been killing each other. Many small businesses in this area are being asked to pay for protection. This is kind of how Acapulco became a place no one goes anymore. 

If you add in the gringo-phobia that many Mexicans feel due to current events in the USA it starts to look like the U.S. Travel Advisories might be something to consider. 

btw, I really doubt that tourists are targeted by cartel. I think the people in harms way are the Mexican business owners, politicians and other extortable types. My plans on heading to Mexico haven't changed because of violence. My concerns are more about medical emergencies due to health, not bullets. A health emergency is something that actually happens to many tourists. 

Bill


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## lauramiddl (Mar 2, 2018)

We were at Vidanta (Mayan World) compound last week and I didn't hear a thing about this.  We went to Playa Monday and Tuesday, but remained on the compound after that.  There was a large police presence around 5th Ave in Playa on Monday night, but since it's been over 18 years since I've been there, I can't say if it was a normal presence or not.   On Saturday, we went to Xcaret and the airport.  It's amazing how out of touch you can be while on vacation.


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## taterhed (Mar 2, 2018)

easyrider said:


> I had read the Ferry explosion was an accidental explosion but now I guess we all know it wasn't. The Rivera Maya taxi drivers are in a squabble with Ubber drivers and recently they have been killing each other. Many small businesses in this area are being asked to pay for protection. This is kind of how Acapulco became a place no one goes anymore.
> 
> If you add in the gringo-phobia that many Mexicans feel due to current events in the USA it starts to look like the U.S. Travel Advisories might be something to consider.
> 
> ...



Agreed:  We don't really know if this was an accident or explosive on the ferry.....but, if it was an explosive, it seems like it was designed for attention and not destruction. IMHO.

Always pays to be cautious when traveling abroad or really anywhere that tourists abound!


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## Jayco29D (Mar 7, 2018)

We were in Cancun/Riviera Maya at the end of January. There was no obvious police presence at all on 5th Avenue in Playa del Carmen. In driving back and forth from Cancun to Xe Hal and Cancun to Xcaret over several days, we only passed 1-2 police check points in the entire 1.5 hour drive each way. So it sounds like since this problem happened, the area may have increased the police presence.


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## dannybaker (Mar 7, 2018)

Cabo has become unsafe? I was told that the city was named the most dangerous city in Mexico, is this true.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 7, 2018)

We were in Cabo for Christmas week. The day before we arrived, the drug cartel hung several men over the bridge from the airport to the main resorts and hotels. I did not know about this until after we were already in Cabo. After we learned of this, we stayed within our gated luxury compound. Luckily there was enough to do that we felt fine. We went on the resort bus to downtown Cabo San Lucas and it was so run down that we went back to the gated compound and never left again. However, this did not scare me off from Mexico. So we went again at the end of January to Cancun/Riviera Maya and rented a car to tour the entire area. We did not have any security problems. But after reading this thread, and the actual news of the events, I think we may not visit Mexico again for a while.


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## klpca (Mar 7, 2018)

Here's the latest update. I'm honestly having second thoughts.  
*Security Alert - U. S. Embassy Mexico City, Mexico (March 7, 2018)*


*Location*:  Playa del Carmen, Mexico


*Event*: On March 7, the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City received information about a security threat in Playa del Carmen, Quintana Roo, Mexico.  Effective immediately, U.S. Government employees are prohibited from traveling to Playa del Carmen until further notice.  The U.S. Consular Agency in Playa del Carmen will be closed until further notice.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 7, 2018)

My spouse and I have decided we will not be visiting Mexico again with our children until they clean up their drug cartel problems. We went to Mexico 5 times in 2017. This is a shame because we truly love Mexico especially the Cancun/Cozumel/Riviera Maya side with the beautiful Caribbean sea. We love the warmth of the Mexican people but we can't risk our children's lives, even if the risk is small. P.S. There are many cities in the USA we won't go either!


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## easyrider (Mar 7, 2018)

dannybaker said:


> Cabo has become unsafe? I was told that the city was named the most dangerous city in Mexico, is this true.



Very dangerous if you work for a drug cartel or associate with cartel members. I think the La Paz had the highest murder rate in southern Baja. La Paz has ferry service to Mazatlan and the guns end up in La Paz. La Paz is about a three hour drive from Cabo. Most of the murders happen in the small villages of Baja but at least one happened in a resort area in San Jose del Cabo where an American tourist was accidentally shot in the leg.

I read that maybe 40,000 reservations with more each day have been canceled to the Cabo area because of the gang violence. 

While speaking with some locals in Mexico last year it seems that many don't like the idea of Mexico paying for American border security because personally many of them are not wealthy and Mexico isn't a wealthy country. This is causing a bit of anti-gringo in Mexico, imo. This is not a political remark so if you read this don't attempt to turn it political. 

Bill


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## mdurette (Mar 8, 2018)

I was vey excited a few weeks back when I snagged Grand Luxxe NV for cheap TPUs and no fees via RCI.   I put the unit on hold and started planning.   After reading the warning from the US about PV area - I let the hold lapse.   Maybe I would not have done that if I didn't still have a child in tow - who knows.

I'm sure people in other countries read about some of the scary stuff in the US and stay away from us too.

For now at least....If I'm looking for fun in the sun....I'll stick with the Caribbean.


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## geist1223 (Mar 8, 2018)

We spent 3 weeks in BCS in January and February. We mainly stayed in San Jose del Cabo but we drove all over the place to include 2 trips to La Paz. Locals were friendly and helpful. We had a great time.


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## PamMo (Mar 8, 2018)

I'm no thrill seeker, but am still planning for six weeks in Cabo and Puerto Vallarta in the next two months...  I'm checking with my "guy" (son) in the Latin American section at State to see what he has to say, though.


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## buzglyd (Mar 8, 2018)

I'll be in Playa del Carmen next week. We aren't night owls and won't be in any clubs at 2 AM. 

Stuff can happen anywhere but Mexico's murder rate is through the roof these days.


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## Lingber (Mar 8, 2018)

We are supposed to be at the Grand Luxxe middle of this month. Hate that the alert is so vague. From USA today article. 

"The embassy said it had “received information about a security threat” on Wednesday. It did not specify what that threat is."


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## Jayco29D (Mar 8, 2018)

A recent article in Time:

http://time.com/5191405/us-travel-warning-resort-mexico/

https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/mx-dominates-list-of-most-violent-cities/


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## Conan (Mar 8, 2018)

State Department Alert sounds serious
#Mexico Security Alert: On March 7, the US Embassy received information about a security threat in #PlayadelCarmen, Quintana Roo, Mexico. Effective immediately, US Government employees are prohibited from traveling to Playa del Carmen until further notice. http://ow.ly/SvAw30iOR0r

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...resort-city-in-mexico/?utm_term=.ea8e2313b7a8


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## moonstone (Mar 8, 2018)

Now Canada has issued a travel warning as well. 
https://globalnews.ca/news/4070488/canada-playa-del-carmen-mexico-travel-warning-security-threat/


~Diane


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## WalnutBaron (Mar 9, 2018)

CBS News reports that the U.S. consulate in the Yucatan area of Mexico has been closed because of undisclosed threats to American government personnel. The State Department is also issuing warnings to American tourists.

If you’ve planned to spend spring break in the tourist resorts of the Yucatan Peninsula, you may want to reconsider.The State Department abruptly closed the US consulate in the popular tourist destination of Playa del Carmen late Wednesday evening and ordered  US government employees to stay out of the area. They warn other Americans either in the region or thinking of traveling to it about a “real crime threat” from local drug cartels:








CBS News

✔@CBSNews

The State Dept. abruptly closed the U.S. consulate in Playa Del Carmen, Mexico, and is prohibiting all U.S. government employees from traveling to the resort town. Government sources tell CBS News this is because of a “real crime threat” connected to warring drug cartels:
Mexico denied any such issues exist, however, and noted that the Mexican president attended a conference in the city yesterday:

The government of the Caribbean coast state of Quintana Roo said that President Enrique Pena Nieto was scheduled to attend an ocean conservation conference in Playa del Carmen on Thursday.

“All tourism and economic activity in Playa del Carmen continues in a normal manner,” the state government wrote in a statement, noting that hotel occupancy at the resort was 80 percent.

“We do not know why the U.S. government decided to emit this alert,” the government said.

Two weeks ago, a tourist ferry boat exploded as it traveled between Playa del Carmen and Cozumel, injuring five Americans and 19 Mexicans. Authorities later found another ferry wired with explosives, which prompted the State Department to bar all personnel from using the ferries. Other violence in the region has been mainly confined to the drug trade, the Associated Press notes, with a shooting in a hospital that killed a suspected drug gang member and his wife, and an attack on a prosecutor’s office in Cancun two months ago.

According to ABC, though, the threat is unrelated to the ferry attacks, which investigators suspect may have been motivated by insurance fraud:

The U.S. Embassy in Mexico said Thursday that a security alert about the Caribbean resort of Playa del Carmen was not related to an explosion on a ferry that injured at least two dozen people.

The embassy did not specify what kind of security threat it had been informed of in the resort, which is near Cancun, Cozumel and Tulum.

But it did say that “we do not have information relating the ferry explosion to the security threat in Playa del Carmen.”

Whatever the threat is, it has Canada spooked, too, and so do the ferry bombs:

Thursday’s update to the Canadian travel advisory notes the U.S. Embassy is advising Americans that ‎its consulate in Playa del Carmen has been closed until further notice. As well, all U.S. government employees are now prohibited from travelling to Playa del Carmen until further notice. …

Thursday’s notice from Global Affairs Canada advises against cruise excursions using ferry services in Playa del Carmen.

“Avoid tourist ferries travelling in the region until further notice, be vigilant and monitor local media (including social media),” reads the advisory.

Canadians are advised to exercise a high degree of caution when visiting all parts of Mexico “due to high levels of criminal activity, as well as demonstrations, protests and occasional illegal roadblocks.”

The State Department emphasized that this was not a low-level travel advisory but a warning, while stopping short of telling people not to travel to the area:

The State Department official said Wednesday’s security alert for Playa del Carmen is different from a travel advisory and is meant to inform U.S. citizens “of specific safety and security concerns in a country, such as demonstrations, crime trends and weather events.”

The State Department’s travel advisory for Mexico remains at Level 2, which comes with a note to “exercise increased caution.” The state of Quintana Roo also comes with a Level 2 warning.

“According to Government of Mexico statistics, the state experienced an increase in homicide rates compared to the same period in 2016,” the warning for Quintana Roo states. “While most of these homicides appeared to be targeted, criminal organization assassinations, turf battles between criminal groups have resulted in violent crime in areas frequented by U.S. citizens. Shooting incidents injuring or killing bystanders have occurred.”

Well, that sounds like a fun vacation! Who wouldn’t want to participate in an exciting shore excursion like that? These issues aren’t really new; an OSAC report two years ago noted the dramatic increases in crime for parts of the Yucatan Peninsula. At that time, the murder rate had increased by 40% over the preceding two years, and violent robberies had gone up 43%. Even non-violent robbery was becoming a bad problem there, with significant cybersecurity and credit-card scam operations in Cancun and Playa del Carmen getting specific mention.

The Mexican government’s mystified response belies an earlier warning it sent out. In January, the Mexican government told American travelers to stay out of five other states over similar concerns. If State is issuing a heightened level of alert now in the Yucatan, it suggests that the issues may be overwhelming Mexican efforts to protect their tourist trade. It’s a good bet that the Mexican government knows full well why the US decided to “emit” this alert.

Of course, parts of the US might be no better for public safety, but few people would travel to those spots for an expensive vacation, either. It might be better to either stay in the US or look to the Caribbean for a warm-water spring break this year. You can get a good beach drink almost anywhere these days without landing in the middle of a drug war.


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## PamMo (Mar 10, 2018)

To keep this thread up to date, I just got this alert:

Security Alert - U. S. Embassy Mexico City, Mexico (March 9, 2018)


Location:  Playa del Carmen, Mexico


Event:  Due to an ongoing security threat, the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City is revising its travel restrictions to Playa del Carmen for U.S. government personnel.  U.S. government personnel are prohibited from travel to Centro, Calica, Gonzalo Guerrero, Quintas del Carmen, and Villas del Carmen neighborhoods of Playa del Carmen.  These neighborhoods are bordered by Avenida Benito Juarez, 50 Avenida Sur (Highway 307), and Calle 34 Norte.  U.S. citizens should avoid those neighborhoods until further notice.  U.S. government personnel are authorized to travel to resort areas in Riviera Maya including those near Playa del Carmen that are outside the restricted neighborhoods of this Alert.


Absent additional changes in the security situation, the U.S. Consular Agency in Playa del Carmen will reopen for normal operations on Monday, March 12. 


The circumstances surrounding the security threat affecting the above neighborhoods is separate from the threat against ferries operating between Playa del Carmen and Cozumel.  U.S. government personnel are still prohibited from using ferry services between Playa del Carmen and Cozumel until further notice.  U.S. citizens should not use ferry services operating between Playa del Carmen and Cozumel.



Actions to Take:

·        U.S. citizens should avoid those neighborhoods in Playa del Carmen listed above until further notice. 

·        U.S. citizens should not use ferry services operating between Playa del Carmen and Cozumel.

·        Be aware of your surroundings and exercise increased caution.

·        Purchase travel insurance that specifically covers you in Mexico and includes medical evacuation insurance.

·        Contact the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate if you need assistance.


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## Southdown13 (Mar 10, 2018)

PamMo said:


> To keep this thread up to date, I just got this alert:
> 
> Security Alert - U. S. Embassy Mexico City, Mexico (March 9, 2018)
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting. We were on the fence about going to PDC next week and had decided to go anyway. This update makes us feel a little better.


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## pianoetudes (Mar 11, 2018)

mdurette said:


> I'm sure people in other countries read about some of the scary stuff in the US and stay away from us too.



Like this? https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/08/11/travel-warnings-united-states/88458238/


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## BC Bum (Mar 13, 2018)

*Cancun has a major murder problem*

https://nypost.com/2018/03/12/trouble-in-paradise-cancuns-secret-murders/

I'm a bit spooked as well.


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## PamMo (Mar 13, 2018)

The consular office is up and running this week. There ARE warnings for Americans to avoid going into certain Playa Del Carmen neighborhoods, though. Most tourists don't go there anyway.

This thread should be combined with the other thread on the same topic, which has updated information.


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## Karen G (Mar 13, 2018)

PamMo said:


> This thread should be combined with the other thread on the same topic, which has updated information.


The threads have been combined.


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## thetimeshareguy (Mar 13, 2018)

I'm traveling to Playa del Carmen with my fiancée and her three sons on Saturday for a one-week stay. I've read the news reports about recent crimes and the bomb detonated on the ferry to Cozumel. At first I was spooked but having read a bit more, it seems most incidents are between rival drug gang members and the killings are targeted (though tourists can be injured as bystanders, of course). We plan to use a bit of extra caution and would not plan to take a cab with a stranger at 2:00 am from a club anyway. There is also safety and numbers and, given the tens of thousands of tourists (who are not normally the targets) we plan to blend in with the herd. That being said, I have a question to do with taxis, etc. Can folks who've been there recently (or are there now) recommend a good protocol for getting around (other than when we're on foot walking to the beach or whatnot)? Looking for some practical tips from people who know the area and situation well. Thanks!


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## easyrider (Mar 13, 2018)

thetimeshareguy said:


> I'm traveling to Playa del Carmen with my fiancée and her three sons on Saturday for a one-week stay. I've read the news reports about recent crimes and the bomb detonated on the ferry to Cozumel. At first I was spooked but having read a bit more, it seems most incidents are between rival drug gang members and the killings are targeted (though tourists can be injured as bystanders, of course). We plan to use a bit of extra caution and would not plan to take a cab with a stranger at 2:00 am from a club anyway. There is also safety and numbers and, given the tens of thousands of tourists (who are not normally the targets) we plan to blend in with the herd. That being said, I have a question to do with taxis, etc. Can folks who've been there recently (or are there now) recommend a good protocol for getting around (other than when we're on foot walking to the beach or whatnot)? Looking for some practical tips from people who know the area and situation well. Thanks!




There are different taxi's for different areas. The taxi's at the airport pay to be at the airport. At the resorts there are rules between taxi's that prevent them from picking up at certain locations. One thing all of these taxi's have in common is they are not metered so you have to ask how much before you go. Ask the resort door man who to use and get a phone number to call the door man or concierge to arrange your ride if you get a bad vibe. 

In Cancun area, Uber has started up and there is a bit of a fight going on between Uber and the taxi Union with some Uber drivers killed. So I guess stay away from Uber. 

Bill


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Mar 13, 2018)

Context matters.

You are more likely to die attending a concert or going to a nightclub in the US, where some deranged person opens fire.  Or your children are more likely to die in a school shooting in the US than they are traveling to Cancún with you.

In Mexico murders are not nearly as random as they are in the US.  People in Mexico get killed mostly because they are involved in dangerous activities. Not like in the US, where you never know if you're going to be assaulted by some crazy person, or find yourself in the middle of a drive-by shooting.  And if you wander into the wrong neighborhood in a major US city, I think you're much more likely to find yourself dead than in Mexico.

How about comparing homicide rates (from the Miami Herald)?



> Cancún’s state of Quintana Roo had 169 violent killings during the first six months of this year, up from 65 during the same period last year, according to Mexico’s National Public Security System. Los Cabos’ state of Baja California Sur reported nearly four times more slayings than last year during the same period.
> 
> But when you compare these figures with homicide rates in major U.S. cities, they look small.
> 
> ...


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## jlp879 (Mar 13, 2018)

PamMo said:


> The consular office is up and running this week. There ARE warnings for Americans to avoid going into certain Playa Del Carmen neighborhoods, though. Most tourists don't go there anyway.



Two of the neighbourhoods being advised to stay out of are Centro and Calica.  These are actually places where a lot of tourists go.  From the beach up to Highway 307, this is an area with lots of shops, restaurants, the post office, grocery stores, the bus station among others.  

These neighborhoods are bordered by Avenida Benito Juarez, 50 Avenida Sur (Highway 307), and Calle 34 Norte.  Basically, it is the tourist core that they're saying to avoid.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Mar 13, 2018)

jlp879 said:


> Two of the neighbourhoods being advised to stay out of are Centro and Calica.  These are actually places where a lot of tourists go.  From the beach up to Highway 307, this is an area with lots of shops, restaurants, the post office, grocery stores, the bus station among others.
> 
> These neighborhoods are bordered by Avenida Benito Juarez, 50 Avenida Sur (Highway 307), and Calle 34 Norte.  Basically, it is the tourist core that they're saying to avoid.


I could take these warnings more seriously if the government was working with consular offices from other countries to identify areas in the US that are equally dangerous, if not more dangerous, than the areas the government is warning about in other countries.

*****

FWIW - Last month we spent a week in Puerto Vallarta, in a Mexican, non-gringo neighborhood, not part of the tourist zone.  I felt much safer there than I did in the neighborhood near Pioneer Square (tourist locale) in downtown Seattle where I worked for a number of years.


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## bobpark56 (Mar 14, 2018)

We spent 2 weeks over Christmas in Mérida Centro. There are no tourist zones in Mérida that I know of. We went out to dine after dark several times, and sensed no fear among the locals. But then, Mérida prides itself on being the most crime-free city in Mexico. The local cantina/beer garden (La Negrita) was quite raucous, though. But everyone there, staff and customers, was friendly and helpful (we dined there 3 times). They seemed happy to have us join them...and taught me how to drink mezcal. Good mezcal can be quite good. Did you know that it's best with a wedge of orange...not lime, as you might use with tequila.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Mar 14, 2018)

bobpark56 said:


> We spent 2 weeks over Christmas in Mérida Centro. There are no tourist zones in Mérida that I know of. We went out to dine after dark several times, and sensed no fear among the locals. But then, Mérida prides itself on being the most crime-free city in Mexico. The local cantina/beer garden (La Negrita) was quite raucous, though. But everyone there, staff and customers, was friendly and helpful (we dined there 3 times). They seemed happy to have us join them...and taught me how to drink mezcal. Good mezcal can be quite good. Did you know that it's best with a wedge of orange...not lime, as you might use with tequila.



Congratulations Bob - on reaching 1000 messages with this post


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## PamMo (Mar 16, 2018)

To keep this thread current, here's today's update:

Security Alert - U. S. Embassy Mexico City, Mexico (March 16, 2018)

Location:  Playa del Carmen, Mexico

Event:  As a result of recent incidents in Playa del Carmen, Quintana Roo, Mexico, Mexican municipal, state, and federal entities have put into place new security procedures in tourist areas.

Effective immediately, U.S. government personnel are permitted to travel to all parts of Playa del Carmen.

Effective immediately, U.S. government personnel are permitted to use ferry services between Playa del Carmen and Cozumel.

As noted in our Mexico Travel Advisory for the state of Quintana Roo, U.S. citizens should exercise increased caution due to crime.  According to Government of Mexico statistics, the state experienced an increase in homicide rates compared to the same period in 2016.  While most of these homicides appeared to be targeted, criminal organization assassinations, turf battles between criminal groups have resulted in violent crime in areas frequented by U.S. citizens.  Shooting incidents injuring or killing bystanders have occurred.

 Actions to Take:

·        Be aware of your surroundings and exercise increased caution due to crime as noted in our Mexico Travel Advisory.

·        Purchase travel insurance that specifically covers you in Mexico and includes medical evacuation insurance.

·        Contact the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate if you need assistance.

 Assistance:

U.S. Embassy Mexico City, Mexico

(01-55) 5080-2000

ACSMexicoCity@state.gov

https://mx.usembassy.gov/embassy-consulates/

State Department - Consular Affairs

888-407-4747 or 202-501-4444

Mexico Country Information

Enroll in Smart Traveler Enrollment Program (STEP) to receive security updates


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## buzglyd (Mar 16, 2018)

I’m here now. Armed military everywhere. People are having fun. Place is packed.


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## PamMo (Mar 16, 2018)

Same here in Cabo. Spring break is in full force this month.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Mar 16, 2018)

PamMo said:


> While most of these homicides appeared to be targeted, criminal organization assassinations, turf battles between criminal groups have resulted in violent crime in areas frequented by U.S. citizens.  Shooting incidents injuring or killing bystanders have occurred.



Needless to say, it is almost without precedent for innocent bystanders to be killed or injured in gang battles in the US.


----------



## chriskre (Mar 16, 2018)

I was just watching a very disturbing video about what the police are doing to cover up the murders in Cancun.
They know that once word gets out then that's the end of tourism there like Acapulco.

Yes they are mostly drug related but that doesn't mean there isn't collateral damage happening.

I love Cancun and Playa but sadly won't be returning any time soon except by ship.   
It's really a shame but these cartels are destroying the nation.
It's very sad to see happen to such a beautiful country and people.  

Here's the video.


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## myoakley (Mar 17, 2018)

So sad.  I love Cancun, too.  How is it that the government of Mexico can watch this happening and not find a way to stop it?  Is the corruption so deep at every level that officials stand by and watch their country go to ruin?


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## Jayco29D (Mar 17, 2018)

chriskre said:


> I was just watching a very disturbing video about what the police are doing to cover up the murders in Cancun.
> They know that once word gets out then that's the end of tourism there like Acapulco.
> 
> Yes they are mostly drug related but that doesn't mean there isn't collateral damage happening.
> ...



Very disturbing information on this video. We went to Mexico five times in the past 8 months. We have decided after some disturbing experiences that we will not be returning.


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## melissy123 (Mar 17, 2018)

When we were in Cancun last October we saw a heavy police presence on the beaches. Federales walking up and down on the beach and then armed patrols in open jeeps on the streets. With Cancun mostly being an isthmus (well not exactly an isthmus but entry only at two narrow points), I would think it's easier to police than almost any other region in Mexico. I felt safe there.


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## jlp879 (Mar 17, 2018)

The video is informative in showing us that ignorance is bliss.  The tourists interviewed had no knowledge of what was going on because the police, the government, the media don't want anyone to know, and they're doing a pretty good job of it.  

The heavy police presence in tourist areas can be described as "security theatre"; just keep those gringos coming.


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## taterhed (Mar 17, 2018)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Context matters.
> 
> You are more likely to die attending a concert or going to a nightclub in the US, where some deranged person opens fire.  Or your children are more likely to die in a school shooting in the US than they are traveling to Cancún with you.
> 
> ...





T_R_Oglodyte said:


> *****
> FWIW - Last month we spent a week in Puerto Vallarta, in a Mexican, non-gringo neighborhood, not part of the tourist zone.  I felt much safer there than I did in the neighborhood near Pioneer Square (tourist locale) in downtown Seattle where I worked for a number of years.





T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Needless to say, it is almost without precedent for innocent bystanders to be killed or injured in gang battles in the US.



Your quotes have one thing in common:  They are insensitive.

I get your message clearly:  everyone should feel very safe in Mexico and very afraid if vacationing in the US.

Not your message?  Then please think before posting. 

I can not believe that you posted comments suggesting that peoples kids are likely to die in a school shooting...given current conditions.

GROW UP.

Mexico currently has problems with violence and they are trying to fix them.  We get that.  But there are kinder ways to say it. 

I didn't post the first time, but I am now.  That's my opinion.  
Flame  somewhere else please.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Mar 17, 2018)

Karen G said:


> The threads have been combined.



Hi Karen ,
If you combined every thread you closed that involved variations of this topic  / it would be one long thread full of OPINIONS  that other readers take issue with .
"Security Alerts" that (some feel) read like : " It is snowing in Tahoe so avoid travel to Los Angeles " - complicate it further .

Just my opinion .[/QUOTE]


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## Jayco29D (Mar 17, 2018)

I subscribe to https://mexiconewsdaily.com/. It seems helpful and fairly objective. I love Mexico and hope it will improve its safety and PR issues.


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## PamMo (Mar 18, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Hi Karen ,
> If you combined every thread you closed that involved variations of this topic  / it would be one long thread full of OPINIONS  that other readers take issue with .
> "Security Alerts" that (some feel) read like : " It is snowing in Tahoe so avoid travel to Los Angeles " - complicate it further .
> 
> Just my opinion .



Karen just combined two different threads on the _exact same topic_ of State Dept security alerts on Playa del Carmen that were cross posted. It makes total sense to put them together so Tuggers can follow the timeline.


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## Eric B (Mar 18, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Hi Karen ,
> If you combined every thread you closed that involved variations of this topic  / it would be one long thread full of OPINIONS  that other readers take issue with .
> "Security Alerts" that (some feel) read like : " It is snowing in Tahoe so avoid travel to Los Angeles " - complicate it further .
> 
> Just my opinion .



It’s actually more of a wintry mix and I would avoid travel to San Francisco rather than LA; not that we’re prone to disagreements here....


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## whitewater (Mar 18, 2018)

ban lifted:  https://www.riviera-maya-news.com/u...carmen-lifted-effective-immediately/2018.html


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Mar 18, 2018)

Karen just combined two different threads on the _exact same topic_ of State Dept security alerts on Playa del Carmen that were cross posted. It makes total sense to put them together so Tuggers can follow the timeline.[/QUOTE]

**********
Thanks PamMo ,

Sorry : My post wasn’t clear .

My sole reason for it was to compliment Karen .
and thank her for moderating this forum .

As tourists to TS resorts - it is important to have this information ( security info ) and I appreciated reading members adding information .
At the same time - having to close similar threads over the years : has likely been a “ “moderator’s headache . 

Thank you Karen .


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## BC Bum (Mar 20, 2018)

Oh the ban was lifted? Somehow that doesn't fit in with the conspiracy theories of the US trying to destroy Mexican tourism. I guess someone didn't get the memo.


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## Eric B (Mar 20, 2018)

Must have been the deep state....


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## easyrider (Mar 23, 2018)

A family of four were found dead in their resort condo in the Tulum area. They were vacationing at the Bahia Principle resort which is a resort complex similar to the Vidanta property. It looks like a very nice place.

http://www.kcrg.com/content/news/Re...ur-missing-on-Mexican-vacation-477742253.html

https://www.bahia-principe.com/en/resorts-in-riviera-maya/resort-tulum/

Bill


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## Karen G (Mar 23, 2018)

Here is a little further info:  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/iowa-family-reported-missing-found-dead-in-mexico/


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## Jayco29D (Mar 23, 2018)

This is so sad. Based on these news reports, I don't know what to think. The links do not supply any information as to what could have happened.


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## klpca (Mar 23, 2018)

Folks on tripadvisor are speculating that it was carbon monoxide poisoning. Supposedly no signs of foul play, but still, so troubling. So sad for their family.


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## taterhed (Mar 23, 2018)

So sad.

As with any travel, there are always risks.  It will be interesting to read the results of this tragic incident.


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## DaveNV (Mar 23, 2018)

Akumal is a nice area. So sad.

Dave


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## e.bram (Mar 24, 2018)

*Iowa family of four that went missing in Mexico found dead*


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## whitewater (Mar 24, 2018)

e.bram said:


> *Iowa family of four that went missing in Mexico found dead*


no foul play/ signs of trauma per news reports.   sad but unrelated to safety unless proven otherwise....


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## Jayco29D (Mar 24, 2018)

I read an article in New York Times that said there might have been a gas leak in the condo. If this is the cause, this is extremely sad and totally preventable. No matter what the cause, this is awful. I hope we will learn more about the details of this tragedy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/world/americas/family-dead-mexico.html?rref=collection/sectioncollection/world&action=click&contentCollection=world&region=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=14&pgtype=sectionfront


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## taterhed (Mar 24, 2018)

check your sources....

" ...Iowa investigators have confirmed that the Sharp _family_ from Creston was found _dead_ in their condo in _Mexico_. The _family_ of 4 were found _dead_ in a condominium of the* Bahía Príncipe* tourist complex in Tulum. The _family_ was vacationing in _Mexico_ earlier this month."


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## Jayco29D (Mar 24, 2018)

taterhed said:


> check your sources....
> 
> " ...Iowa investigators have confirmed that the Sharp _family_ from Creston was found _dead_ in their condo in _Mexico_. The _family_ of 4 were found _dead_ in a condominium of the* Bahía Príncipe* tourist complex in Tulum. The _family_ was vacationing in _Mexico_ earlier this month."



Oh no, then this is even worse! If it is a gas leak in a major tourist complex, that would be really bad. That will really hurt tourism in Mexico. Maybe that is why the major media like New York Times and Washington Post are not reporting where the condo was yet, until the investigation is complete. I have read many articles on this story since it is heart wrenching and I have not seen any reference to it being at Bahia Principe or the cause, other than the mention in NYT about a possible gas leak. If you find more information, please post the links. I would love to learn more about what happened to this beautiful family.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 24, 2018)

I just googled Bahia Principe and I found a few links stating the Mexican authorities have released that as the location where they died and the causes could be food poisoning or a gas leak.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2018/03/family-s-mysterious-death-at-luxury-mexico-resort.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...um-Mexico-condo-friends-reported-missing.html

When word gets out the family died at a luxury resort in Mexico, this will hurt tourism. If you can’t trust a luxury resort in Mexico, then where can you trust staying. This story, on top of the tainted alcohol stories last year, will really hurt tourism, not to mention the drug cartels and the ferry bombings.

I am a Mexico lover and went to Mexico five times in the past year and have been to Mexico at least 12 times in my life. I want to continue traveling to Mexico but all of these stories that are coming out have me thinking to shift my travel for awhile.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Mar 24, 2018)

Not unlike having a fatal outbreak of Legionnaire's Disease due to a faulty hotel ventilation system.

I'm glad that kind of thing could never happen in the US.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Mar 24, 2018)

Does anyone remember when Germany issued a warning about travel to the US after three German tourists and six tourists in general were killed in less than four months while vacationing in Flordia?  That street criminals in the area were specifically targeting tourists? How does that compare with the number of tourist deaths in Mexico?



> MIAMI — Four days after a German tourist who inadvertently drove her rental car into an inner-city Miami neighborhood was assaulted, robbed and killed, the resulting outcry has turned the slaying into an international incident.
> 
> In Bonn, the German government issued a list of "precautionary measures" for nationals planning to visit Florida, the first time in memory such a travel advisory has been issued for a U.S. destination.
> 
> ...



******

I am sorry for anybody who feels that posting unsettling contradictory information is an immature overreaction. Personally, I prefer my facts the same way I enjoy my crow - uncoated, cold, and hard.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 24, 2018)

In spite of these scary reports, I have always felt physically safe in Mexico. However, my spouse was sexually harassed on one trip in the 1990s. In the trips in the last year, we had problems with harassment on 3 of the 5 trips with the resort staff. On the last trip, I had an accident and broke my clavicle at Xel Ha. I do not blame Xel Ha for my accident but it did leave a bad memory and does not make me excited to go back. Putting all of my experiences in Mexico together and then listening to all of the stories of danger do turn me off. In the USA, I have not had these types of problems with travel. Yes, bad things happen in the USA but I have had more bad experiences in Mexico than anywhere else I have traveled, and I have not had many bad things happen in Mexico compared to the stories on this thread - thank God. So when we compare statistics and we throw out stories about crime in Chicago’s inner cities or Legionnaire’s Disease in a US hotel, it is all hypothetical to me. These are not the types of places I would visit in the USA. The problems in Mexico in upscale locations have affected me more directly as my spouse has been sexually harassed, we have been harassed 3 times minimum by hotel staff in Mexico, and I have had a serious accident in Mexico resulting in the only broken bone and black out of my life. None of this has happened in my life and travels in the USA, Europe, Australia, Pacifica, Caribbean and elsewhere.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 24, 2018)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Does anyone remember when Germany issued a warning about travel to the US after three German tourists and six tourists in general were killed in less than four months while vacationing in Flordia?  That street criminals in the area were specifically targeting tourists? How does that compare with the number of tourist deaths in Mexico?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I grew up in Miami. Miami was a disaster when I was growing up. The 1970s, 1980s and the early 1990s were pretty bad. The inner city in Miami was extremely dangerous. Places like Overtown and Liberty City were deadly. Those were the areas where we had riots for days on end in 1980. During the riots, no one left their house, no matter where you lived. If someone drove in the inner city by mistake at any time, it would not surprise me that they would be robbed and possibly killed. Locals knew to avoid the inner cities. In the 1980s, Miami was the most dangerous city in the US. Remember Miami Vice? There was a lot of truth in the series, believe it or not. Drugs were rampant in Miami when I was growing up. Florida is the capital of Medicare fraud and many other types of fraud scandals. People move there to avoid state taxes and regulation. I personally hate Miami, even now. South Beach used to be super dangerous too. That is where the Marielitos (the criminals Castro sent over in the 1980s) went to live because it was cheap. (I am half Cuban, BTW) The German consulate was right to issue a warning for Miami because there were some neigborhoods tourists should have been warned to avoid. I left Miami in 1988. I had no idea that it started to transform in the late 1990s. Now it is an overpriced tourist hub in the “hot” neighborhoods but there is extreme income inequality between the coastal areas and the inland areas. I do not recognize the city anymore. I remember in the mid 1980s, I used to go to some “underground” bars in South Beach. That was considered adventurous at the time because South Beach was dangerous. You had to know exactly where you were going and not go alone. P.S. In spite of growing up in Miami when it was dangerous, I did not experience any danger because I knew where to go and where to avoid.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Mar 24, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> In spite of these scary reports, I have always felt physically safe in Mexico. However, my spouse was sexually harassed on one trip in the 1990s. In the trips in the last year, we had problems with harassment on 3 of the 5 trips with the resort staff. On the last trip, I had an accident and broke my clavicle at Xel Ha. I do not blame Xel Ha for my accident but it did leave a bad memory and does not make me excited to go back. Putting all of my experiences in Mexico together and then listening to all of the stories of danger do turn me off. In the USA, I have not had these types of problems with travel. Yes, bad things happen in the USA but I have had more bad experiences in Mexico than anywhere else I have traveled, and I have not had many bad things happen in Mexico compared to the stories on this thread - thank God. So when we compare statistics and we throw out stories about crime in Chicago’s inner cities or Legionnaire’s Disease in a US hotel, it is all hypothetical to me. These are not the types of places I would visit in the USA. The problems in Mexico in upscale locations have affected me more directly as my spouse has been sexually harassed, we have been harassed 3 times minimum by hotel staff in Mexico, and I have had a serious accident in Mexico resulting in the only broken bone and black out of my life. None of this has happened in my life and travels in the USA, Europe, Australia, Pacifica, Caribbean and elsewhere.


I understand and I think that is a reasonable response.

*******

Your response brings up an issue that might be lurking "under the table" in these discussions. 

Some people vacation and travel as a way to get away and relax. Other people travel because travel is a way of expanding one's horizon's and get exposed to different cultures and ways of thinking.  And, or course, some people mix both concepts when traveling.

However, if one's goal is to expand one's horizons, then that necessarily involves getting out of one's comfort zone, with inevitable consequences.  Using your example, many cultures and societies have very different notions regarding "harassment".  A person can certainly say that they don't wish to risk that when they travel, and as a point of principle they will refuse to spend their dollars supporting the tourism industry in countries that tolerate that they of behavior. That is a perfectly fine and defensible stance to take. 

The inevitable corollary, though, is that that is also a choice to cut oneself off from the benefits of being exposed to that culture via travel.  So that decision also comes with a price.  Each individual needs to make their own decision. 

*******

For myself, one of the most memorable trips I ever took in my life was to rural Guatemala.  Based on many of the comments in this thread, I believe I surmise that many of the people who have been on this thread would never have made this trip.  While there was only one time when I immediately felt unsafe, at all times I had a distinct awareness of danger, and to always be alert to what was happening around me. In the areas where I traveled, highway banditry was a semi-regular occurrence, which traveling foreigners often targeted.

In the communities where I visited, families were actively struggling with influences from gangs and cartels, and trying to keep their children out of gangs. 

But I was also exposed to wonderful, caring and generous people.  Who were working hard to rebuild their lives after 25 years of civil war in which they had been targets of genocide.  People who were proud of their heritage and maintained their dignity in the face of tremendous insult.  I got just an inkling of what they go through, and of the reasons why so many of the men make the trek to try to get across the border.

But I wouldn't have gotten to see any of that if I hadn't been willing to accept living with an added element of danger.  I had to think through that when I signed the piece of paper that set forth those risks and I had to acknowledge that I was accepting those risks.


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## taterhed (Mar 24, 2018)

More than a dozen travelers from around the United States say reviews website *TripAdvisor* is deleting and muzzling their first-hand accounts of *rape* ...
*TripAdvisor* apologized on Wednesday for deleting a 2010 post in which a woman claimed she was raped at a Mexican resort
*TripAdvisor* has added a _*badge*_ to its pages _*warning*_ customers of sexual assault and other serious crime at certain destinations. The travel website said it has already placed the cautionary message on pages for three hotels in Mexico.

I feel much safer now.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Mar 24, 2018)

taterhed said:


> More than a dozen travelers from around the United States say reviews website *TripAdvisor* is deleting and muzzling their first-hand accounts of *rape* ...
> *TripAdvisor* apologized on Wednesday for deleting a 2010 post in which a woman claimed she was raped at a Mexican resort
> *TripAdvisor* has added a _*badge*_ to its pages _*warning*_ customers of sexual assault and other serious crime at certain destinations. The travel website said it has already placed the cautionary message on pages for three hotels in Mexico.
> 
> I feel much safer now.


Does TripAdivson ornly censor posts about Mexico?

Or do they censor "adverse" posts more universally?  Because, if it's universal, then singling out Mexico is less relevant.

In fact, ever since TripAdvisor began accepting paid advertising, removing unpleasant content has become an issue.  Not just with Mexico.

******

BTW - I'm not saying that Mexico in general is just as safe as the US.  There are certainly many areas in Mexico, and many parts of the world, where danger is more present.  And where due to unawareness of local conditions and customers, visitors can find themselves in more danger.  I know of one timeshare resort in Mexico that was closed due to security concerns (Vila Vera in Acapulco).  

But I do argue for context.  And I will offer my experience that there are many places in Mexico where tourists are every bit as physically safe as they would be anyplace in the US.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 24, 2018)

I have been to Guatemala too. I did not experience any danger there but the tour guide told us all about the danger, politics and the civil war. We went there to see the pyramids and ruins on a day trip from Belize. It was not particularly adventurous but I knew there was a risk being on a tourist bus. Anything could have happened but nothing did.

I was in Haiti for work in the 1990s and my company arranged protection with the government and hired armed guards to accompany us. Going from the airport to our location took two hours along unpaved roads. We saw women bathing in the river with men with rifles protecting them from rape. I saw many Red Cross trucks going back and forth. We stayed in a hotel that was closed and they opened it just for us. The hotel overlooked the sea and it was absolutely beautiful. They brought in staff to cook for us and attend to our needs. The Haitians were incredible to us, but I am sure if I was walking alone in their inner city I would have had a different experience. We had a group of about 100 people so we needed two hotels. My hotel was great but everyone in the other hotel got food poisoning. We were there for several days for our work. That was the poorest country I have ever been in, yet we were treated like royalty since my company arranged everything and the government was involved in protecting us. Guatemala is rich compared to Haiti. I was in Haiti at about the same time I visited Guatemala so timing was not the issue. It was in the 1990s.

The Mexican resorts in tourist areas advertise themselves as relaxation and getaways and equivalent to the USA. They do not advertise as cultural experiences to see Mexico as the locals live. They charge about the same as the USA for the places we have stayed since we go to upscale resorts. We do not expect to be harassed by resort staff if the resorts are claiming to be 5 star.


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## taterhed (Mar 24, 2018)

*Mexico: Where More Americans Are Murdered Than In All Other Foreign Countries Combined*
*
Forbes:  Gary Stoller*
"Most recent State Department data may also cause travelers to pause before booking a trip to Mexico. In 2016, according to my analysis of the data, more Americans were reported killed by homicide in Mexico than the combined total of Americans killed by homicide in every other country abroad.
More than 31 million Americans visited Mexico in 2016, the National Travel & Tourism Office says, and State Department data shows there were reports of 75 American homicide victims there. In comparison, 49 million Americans traveled to all other foreign countries, and 69 were reported killed by homicide.


So, is this the cold, hard truth that you seek?

I don't think this kind of posting really helps TUG advise vacationers of current and timely warnings concerning certain geographic areas.  That's that the thread started out to be.....but it has quickly become a USA vs MEXICO debate.

Sorry, but I'll have no part of it.  MODERATORS:  suggest locking the thread now before it degrades even further.
Truly sorry for the loss of a beautiful family on vacation.   The results of the investigation could be very helpful information for travelers. Sadly, it would be hard to find in this thread.


Bye.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 24, 2018)

taterhed said:


> More than a dozen travelers from around the United States say reviews website *TripAdvisor* is deleting and muzzling their first-hand accounts of *rape* ...
> *TripAdvisor* apologized on Wednesday for deleting a 2010 post in which a woman claimed she was raped at a Mexican resort
> *TripAdvisor* has added a _*badge*_ to its pages _*warning*_ customers of sexual assault and other serious crime at certain destinations. The travel website said it has already placed the cautionary message on pages for three hotels in Mexico.
> 
> I feel much safer now.



Tripadvisor is very unreliable. If you look at the reviews, many say they have been edited with the hotel. I do not trust Tripadvisor anymore. It is all BS. I just look at the photos.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 24, 2018)

I do not think this thread should be closed. People should see the information and decide for themselves. There is a lot of conflicting information. I would hate to see TUG close this post and censor it. This thread started with a travel warning about Mexico. Nothing has changed.

What taterhed posted seems to be the most controversial and would give me the most pause about traveling to Mexico. Why did you post that and then suggest closing this thread?


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Mar 24, 2018)

taterhed said:


> *Mexico: Where More Americans Are Murdered Than In All Other Foreign Countries Combined*
> *
> Forbes:  Gary Stoller*
> "Most recent State Department data may also cause travelers to pause before booking a trip to Mexico. In 2016, according to my analysis of the data, more Americans were reported killed by homicide in Mexico than the combined total of Americans killed by homicide in every other country abroad.
> ...


Very good information tatherhead.  Thank you for posting. 

One question I have looking at the data is that it doesn't distinguish the reasons for travel to Mexico - or other locales.  Considering Mexico - is there a risk difference between traveling to Mexico for tourism, for business, or to see family?  How many of those homicides of Americans in Mexico involve people who may have been involved in illicit activities?

As I keep iterating, context matters.


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## isisdave (Mar 24, 2018)

taterhed said:


> " ...Iowa investigators have confirmed that the Sharp _family_ from Creston was found _dead_ in their condo in _Mexico_. The _family_ of 4 were found _dead_ in a condominium of the* Bahía Príncipe* tourist complex in Tulum. The _family_ was vacationing in _Mexico_ earlier this month."




So don't you think there's information missing or confused from the current Mexico event?  Nothing that says "they were all found in bed" which would suggest carbon monoxide. Still, you don't need heat much in Tulum; is the hot water heater in the unit?? Often they're in a closet on the balcony.

Or "they all showed signs of disease, or food poisoning, or something"?  I haven't seen anything about the circumstances.  Were the doors locked? When did anyone last use the room phone, or a cell phone?

And how/why would "Iowa investigators" be involved in Mexico? And if they were, why no more specific info from them?


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## PigsDad (Mar 24, 2018)

isisdave said:


> So don't you think there's information missing or confused from the current Mexico event?  Nothing that says "they were all found in bed" which would suggest carbon monoxide. Still, you don't need heat much in Tulum; is the hot water heater in the unit?? Often they're in a closet on the balcony.


In an article I saw, they stated the parents were found in their bed, and the kids were found in the living area in front of the TV.  I don't think food poisoning is likely -- what's the chance that it affected them all the same way and they all died at the same time (no one went for help, etc.).  It may not be heater related, but how about a gas leak from the stove/oven?  Fireplace?  Lots of unknowns here.



> And how/why would "Iowa investigators" be involved in Mexico? And if they were, why no more specific info from them?


The first article I read about this stated the "Iowa investigators" were just involved because that is where the missing persons report was filed.  Those authorities then contacted the state department.  The Iowa authorities were not involved in Mexico with the investigation.

Kurt


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## taterhed (Mar 24, 2018)

Ok, guess I didn't leave soon enough.

I'm sorry if I seem frustrated, I just don't like 'sensational' postings attempt to sway people's opinions via fear or abstract comparisons.
"you're more likely to die at home on the Toilet than on vacation in Mexico...." for example.

I agree that the thread has value where it reports (via reputable sources) on real world events, warnings and cautions--including retractions where appropriate.

As for the other posts:  The family reported that they were told the group appeared to have 'gone to sleep' and never awakened. There was no sign of trauma; two kids in living room and parents in bed.  This is paraphrased, but it's widely reported.  RIP 

If it is CO asphyxiation or NG poisoning, the autopsy results should be quick and clear (or perhaps chlorine or ???).

Again, very sad, but also good information to know...either to warn or comfort those who may be traveling to the area.  I'm sure the results will be posted soon.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 24, 2018)

Three security stories today in Mexico News Daily. The USA has crime problems too but these are certainly unique, to say the least.

https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/fo...il&utm_term=0_f1536a3787-842cf5f5cd-349557009

https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/co...il&utm_term=0_f1536a3787-842cf5f5cd-349557009

https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/15...il&utm_term=0_f1536a3787-842cf5f5cd-349557009


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Mar 24, 2018)

RE: Creston Iowa Family.

News Reports Saturday evening March 24 list the cause of the death(s) as toxic gas.

I assume this could be from a gas stove .


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Mar 24, 2018)

taterhed said:


> "you're more likely to die at home on the Toilet than on vacation in Mexico...." for example.
> 
> I agree that the thread has value where it reports (via reputable sources) on real world events,.



and statistically : < 100% of people will die at some point .>

******
I agree that threads like this have value , AND sometimes they turn into the thread from last year that debated tourist death rates in Hawaii -from which it was learned :
Older retired people vacation and some die while on vacation .


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## taterhed (Mar 24, 2018)

Sadly, we watched a grandfather pass this year on the beach.

But, he was with family, having a wonderful time and healthy until he went. 
Yup, we all have a 'sell by' date.


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## easyrider (Mar 24, 2018)

I haven't decided exactly where I stand on Mexico trips anymore. I'm not concerned about crime and really doubt that anyone would mess with me while I am in Mexico. My concern is more about my health. I do not want to need to use my travel insurance or stress out about where I should go if something health wise were to happen. I did go to Loreto and Nuevo Vallarta last year and just took it easy but in the back of my mind I was thinking about the what if's. 

The what if's can happen anywhere but if it did happen in Mexico it would be a real problem in many ways. 

Other problems with Mexico is the building codes and lack of enforcement of public safety issues regarding almost all of the resorts. Mexico is an under developed country and it does show. 

Many people have cancelled their trips to Mexico once again. This seems to happen occasionally. I remember years that tourists were not so plenty on trips to Mexico for one reason or another. The reason was usually uncertainty and doubt, imo. I guess that is my reason too.

Bill


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## Jayco29D (Mar 24, 2018)

On the family that died at Bahia Principe, supposedly they died 36 to 48 hours  before they were found and were decomposed when found (so maybe it was even more time since they usually posted daily photos on Facebook). It makes me wonder why housekeeping did not find them sooner. Does that resort not provide daily housekeeping?

It has now been confirmed that they died from inhaling toxic gas.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...b51e028b845_story.html?utm_term=.2a8197e1d91b


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## Jayco29D (Mar 24, 2018)

easyrider said:


> I haven't decided exactly where I stand on Mexico trips anymore. I'm not concerned about crime and really doubt that anyone would mess with me while I am in Mexico. My concern is more about my health. I do not want to need to use my travel insurance or stress out about where I should go if something health wise were to happen. I did go to Loreto and Nuevo Vallarta last year and just took it easy but in the back of my mind I was thinking about the what if's.
> 
> The what if's can happen anywhere but if it did happen in Mexico it would be a real problem in many ways.
> 
> ...



When I broke my clavicle in Mexico, I did not get any medical care. I was taken to the so-called paramedics at Xel-Ha and told I was okay. I had a concussion but they said I was okay and let me go. I have no memory of the accident. I have no idea what happened. They said I hit my head. I completely blacked out for at least 20 minutes. I waited until I reached my family in Miami and my family forced me to go to urgent care to get checked out. That is when I learned I had a broken clavicle. Then when I got home to California, I immediately went to my PCP and she sent me to a neurologist and orthopedic doctor. I am still under the care of the ortho doctor and this happened in late January.


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 25, 2018)

taterhed said:


> More than 31 million Americans visited Mexico in 2016, the National Travel & Tourism Office says, and State Department data shows there were reports of 75 American homicide victims there. In comparison, 49 million Americans traveled to all other foreign countries, and 69 were reported killed by homicide.



Not really that different (ignoring the words), 1.72 times more likely but your chance is less than dying as any number of typical reasons while sitting in the US. I wonder about location though, for example, would be curious how many of those homicides were say in border areas vs say timeshare type locations. I would not myself travel to border areas at this time, but don't get a great sense of danger in the normal TS destinations, people have different fears though. But if one could pinpoint where, might be a better sense of risk. I highly suspect the great majority are border areas which then reframes this statistic. This page claims 92% are border states, not tourist areas though a few years old data.  https://mexiconewsdaily.com/opinion/what-are-chances-of-being-murder-victim/ Yes, one can poke some holes in that article but I highly suspect border areas have the most risk by far.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Mar 25, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> On the family that died at Bahia Principe, supposedly they died 36 to 48 hours  before they were found and were decomposed when found (so maybe it was even more time since they usually posted daily photos on Facebook). It makes me wonder why housekeeping did not find them sooner. Does that resort not provide daily housekeeping?
> 
> It has now been confirmed that they died from inhaling toxic gas.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...b51e028b845_story.html?utm_term=.2a8197e1d91b



I googled -(Tao Condo) and it looked like to me that there could be full ownership condos within the Bahia P. Resort Complex  ; based on some ads for rentals . If this is what they rented then you would not have housekeeping .

We have a gas stove / could they have accidentally left the stove on without lighting it ?


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## Eric B (Mar 25, 2018)

I got the same impression from the info available on the condo complex and the sales listings.  Looks like they're investigating the stove as a gas source, though, and I think they would have been able to tell it was on immediately without being lit and released that to the press.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 25, 2018)

This is being called a gas leak from what I have read so far. If they rented a full ownership condo from an individual owner off a vacation rental site (as the New York Times reported earlier and someone on TUG chastised me for mentioning), then this goes back to my previous comment, which I deleted. Be careful renting from individual owners on vacation rental sites. You do not always know the quality of what you are getting when you rent from an unknown individual owner, not to mention the financial risks.


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## VacationForever (Mar 25, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> This is being called a gas leak from what I have read so far. If they rented a full ownership condo from an individual owner off a vacation rental site (as the New York Times reported earlier and someone on TUG chastised me for mentioning), then this goes back to my previous comment, which I deleted. Be careful renting from individual owners on vacation rental sites. You do not always know the quality of what you are getting when you rent from an unknown individual owner, not to mention the financial risks.


Precisely!  My husband and I had this conversation even before more details came out.  We do not use AirBnB, VRBO and Homeaway rentals.  We stick to the major chains whether it is timeshare or hotels, where we can expect more stringent building code and better maintenance.


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## taterhed (Mar 25, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> This is being called a gas leak from what I have read so far. If they rented a full ownership condo from an individual owner off a vacation rental site (as the New York Times reported earlier and someone on TUG chastised me for mentioning), then this goes back to my previous comment, which I deleted. Be careful renting from individual owners on vacation rental sites. You do not always know the quality of what you are getting when you rent from an unknown individual owner, not to mention the financial risks.



If that's me....I apologize; I wasn't intending to chide, just pointing out that it was a major, name-brand resort and not an 'off the economy' rental.  Of course, assuming that anything is what it seems based on the brand, resort etc... is a bad idea.  Perhaps especially outside the USA.  Heck, even in Hawaii, there can be big surprises renting in a branded resort/condo only to find out you are in a wholly-owned and maintained unit...that hasn't been upgraded since construction.

It will be interested to hear the details.  Again, very sad for the family and certainly something to think about before renting any property.....


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## VacationForever (Mar 25, 2018)

Natural gas has no smell and US's code requires adding a smell that we are all familiar with so that our nose can detect leaking gas.  Mexico may not have the same requirement.


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## VacationForever (Mar 25, 2018)

taterhed said:


> If that's me....I apologize; I wasn't intending to chide, just pointing out that it was a major, name-brand resort and not an 'off the economy' rental.  Of course, assuming that anything is what it seems based on the brand, resort etc... is a bad idea.  Perhaps especially outside the USA.  Heck, even in Hawaii, there can be big surprises renting in a branded resort/condo only to find out you are in a wholly-owned and maintained unit...that hasn't been upgraded since construction.
> 
> It will be interested to hear the details.  Again, very sad for the family and certainly something to think about before renting any property.....


My friend won a charity auction for a week at one of the ocean facing Poipu resorts in Kauai.  The problem was that some of the units were fully owned and one owner donated a week each year to the organization where she worked.  She showed up with 3 of her friends and found the closets filled with the owner's clothes.  She also said the unit smelled bad, like damp clothes/bedsheets that were not washed and dried regularly.  They had a fabulous view in a terrible smelling unit.  She thought the bedsheets looked clean but in no way the owner should have donated a week for auction.  She said he was also renting out his units through rental channels.  The organization refused to accept this donation after her experience.


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## taterhed (Mar 25, 2018)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Does TripAdivson ornly censor posts about Mexico?
> 
> Or do they censor "adverse" posts more universally?  Because, if it's universal, then singling out Mexico is less relevant.
> 
> ...



Specifically, the incidents that were first removed and posted were all in Mexico AFAIK.  Yes, their censorship (advertising) is universally bad.

I hear your tone and recognize what you say is true. Thanks.  I'm certainly not trying to single out Mexico...but of course, this thread was specifically started to detail the explosion, explosives and DOS warning for Playa del C.  


Truce.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Mar 25, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> Natural gas has no smell and US's code requires adding a smell that we are all familiar with so that our nose can detect leaking gas.  Mexico may not have the same requirement.



If  - this was caused by a gas used for cooking ; -

 it is more likely to have been propane -based  on what I have seen as a vacation visitor to Mexico .


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## JIMinNC (Mar 25, 2018)

I think the issues being debated here are all heavily influenced by perception, and that's OK because our perceptions drive how we react to everything in life. It may or may not be "real", but each individual's perceptions are "real" to them.

Many Americans may perceive Mexico to be a dangerous place - because parts of it truly are. Similarly, I know that many people from Europe and Asia look at some of the high-profile random violent events that have taken place in recent months/years here in the U.S. and view our country as sort of the wild-wild west, compared to where they live. I don't think most Americans really perceive most of our country to be a dangerous place, but in a different country/culture, some of our events appear very scary as those kinds of things just don't happen with any regularity there.

If someone feels that the risk of travel to Mexico is too high, then don't go. We had read all the stories prior to our visit to Los Cabos last month, so we really didn't know what to expect. But we loved the area and felt safe everywhere we went in the tourist areas of Cabo San Lucas and San Jose del Cabo. There was a visible police presence, just as there is in many U.S. cities.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 25, 2018)

Here’s the irony. I can have a perception of someplace not being safe and decide to take a risk and go anyway. I have done this many times in my life. Then I come home and hear about more problems and I just think I was lucky that nothing bad happened to me. Same thing with Mexico. We have gone 5 times since last summer. I keep thinking I was just lucky that nothing really bad happened to us. I told my spouse, don’t worry, Mexico is safe, it is just propaganda. LOL The day before we arrived in Cabo, they hung 4 men (I think it was four) on the overpass from the airport to town to scare tourists. When we read that, we decided not to leave Pueblo Bonito’s gated compound. We had a great time but did not like downtown Cabo. We took Pueblo Bonito’s private bus there and only stayed for an hour because we did not like Cabo (it did not feel safe) compared to Playa del Carmen, Cozumel, Puerto Vallarta and other parts of Mexico that have more charm. We just spent the week relaxing in the fairy tale world at Pueblo Bonito.

Same thing with Istanbul. I had planned a trip there in 2012 or so, I think, and canceled it due to some minor security concerns and went to Australia/New Zealand instead. Then we rebooked it and went in 2015. This time I said I was not canceling no matter what. However, we did not stay locked away in our room in Istanbul, regardless of how beautiful it was. We toured around the city for three days but only during the day. At the time, I heard cruise occupancy out of Istanbul was down to 80% because Americans were canceling left and right due to terrorism concerns. I was a bit clueless that there were terrorism problems in Turkey - I thought the Syrian border was far from where we were - and barely knew what ISIS was at that point. We had a great time traveling in Turkey without any security concerns. As we left Europe, the US put us on the no fly list. When I found this out, I asked why and the TSA agent said because I had traveled in Turkey and to get cleared with Global Entry and my problems would be solved. We read about more and more terrorism happening in and out of Turkey. ISIS started getting a lot of attention in late 2015 and 2016. Once again, I thought we were really lucky nothing bad hapened to us. I truly think we were lucky to see Turkey when we did and I doubt we will go again. The good part of the no fly list is it forced us to get Global Entry. If you don’t have Global Entry and TSA Precheck, get it! It saves us so much time now.

I doubt the problems in Mexico will actually scare me enough to completely stop visiting there. However, after 5 trips in one year to Mexico, I think we need a break. There are many other places to see.


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## clifffaith (Mar 25, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> The problems in Mexico in upscale locations have affected me more directly as my spouse has been sexually harassed, we have been harassed 3 times minimum by hotel staff in Mexico, and I have had a serious accident in Mexico resulting in the only broken bone and black out of my life. None of this has happened in my life and travels in the USA, Europe, Australia, Pacifica, Caribbean and elsewhere.



How did the hotel staff harass you?


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## Jayco29D (Mar 25, 2018)

After thinking about this today, I suspect that Mexico is going to be just fine. Westin and other American resort companies are expanding in Mexico. The Mexican companies are expanding. Mexico has problems but I agree, all in all, if you avoid the dangerous places, you should be fine. Random violence happens everywhere. I do think Mexico is less regulated than the USA but that is changing.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 25, 2018)

More info on the family who died in Tulum: http://abcnews.go.com/US/bodies-american-family-killed-gas-poisoning-mexico-coming/story?id=54001040

They rented the condo from an owner on VRBO who was responsible for the maintenance.

The toxic gas leak was either from the hot water heater or the gas stove.

The bodies are on their way home for the funeral.​
Another interesting article: https://www.desmoinesregister.com/s...on-sharp-family-toxic-gas-homeaway/457066002/

The vacation rental company a southwestern Iowa family used to travel to Mexico has removed from its website the property where the Iowans died of toxic gas inhalation.​Warning: Be careful who you rent from on vacation rental sites.


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## chriskre (Mar 26, 2018)

myoakley said:


> So sad.  I love Cancun, too.  How is it that the government of Mexico can watch this happening and not find a way to stop it?  Is the corruption so deep at every level that officials stand by and watch their country go to ruin?



Sadly they are outgunned and the corruption in government runs wild in so many third world countries .  
My cousin was machined gunned down in the streets in the DR .
He was running for political office and naively thought he could change the system with his idealistic dreams . In the end he is dead and nothing in the country is any better . In fact it's gotten so much worse in these past years since he was assassinated . I don't even want to go there myself and my family lives in the "safe" areas.  There is no safe area in the DR and it's the same in Mexico.  I will take my chances in over town here in Miami any day over these countries .


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## chriskre (Mar 26, 2018)

jlp879 said:


> The video is informative in showing us that ignorance is bliss.  The tourists interviewed had no knowledge of what was going on because the police, the government, the media don't want anyone to know, and they're doing a pretty good job of it.
> 
> The heavy police presence in tourist areas can be described as "security theatre"; just keep those gringos coming.



Ignorance can cost you dearly . 
There is a reason that so many are fleeing Mexico .
My downstairs neighbors in my condo are here because they were kidnapped and had to pay ransom money to get free.  They are Mexican but are now seeking asylum here in Miami .
The stories they tell are enough to keep me away .


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## BC Bum (Mar 26, 2018)

If I were 20 something backpacking around, collecting experiences, that would be one thing. But I can't take the risk of putting my family in harm's way. I'm from NYC. I know the dangers of living in the US. But I don't need excessive risk on vacation. I've loved vacationing in Mexico since the 80's. But I'll pass for a while I think. And even if I do go back, doubtful I would leave the resort to go wandering like the old days.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 26, 2018)

chriskre said:


> Sadly they are outgunned and the corruption in government runs wild in so many third world countries .
> My cousin was machined gunned down in the streets in the DR .
> He was running for political office and naively thought he could change the system with his idealistic dreams . In the end he is dead and nothing in the country is any better . In fact it's gotten so much worse in these past years since he was assassinated . I don't even want to go there myself and my family lives in the "safe" areas.  There is no safe area in the DR and it's the same in Mexico.  I will take my chances in over town here in Miami any day over these countries .



I am so sorry about your cousin. What a horrible tragedy. I am glad you are in Miami now. That is my hometown. Neither I, nor anyone in my huge extended family, have ever had any crime problems in Miami. While I may criticize Miami at times (as a native does), it is certainly a safe city compared to what you have experienced in your life. Thank you for bringing a real world perspective to this thread.


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## taterhed (Mar 26, 2018)

From the latest reporting, all very speculative of course...

It looks like the unit they were staying in was probably located at the TAO community (A Bahia Principe private _*Residential*_ community) directly across the street form the Bahia Principe Tulum resort. Not 100%, but that's probably it.

So, it is associated with Bahia Principe, but it was privately owned via VRBO in the TAO condominium complex.
This is actually a pretty high-end community from the look of it.
Very sad, and a great lesson to many, I hope.

I wonder if they make a CO and Gas portable detector.  I think I used to have one for the RV.  Geeze.


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## taterhed (Mar 26, 2018)

I'll answer my own question:  Yes they do make 'combination units' that detect both CO and gas---but the reviews are very mixed.
There are number of inexpensive units that are well reviewed that detect EITHER CO or explosive gases.... perhaps you need to travel with both.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 26, 2018)

taterhed said:


> From the latest reporting, all very speculative of course...
> 
> It looks like the unit they were staying in was probably located at the TAO community (A Bahia Principe private _*Residential*_ community) directly across the street form the Bahia Principe Tulum resort. Not 100%, but that's probably it.
> 
> ...



That is what I read too about where they were staying and how they rented.


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## taterhed (Mar 26, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> This is being called a gas leak from what I have read so far. If they rented a full ownership condo from an individual owner off a vacation rental site (as the New York Times reported earlier and someone on TUG chastised me for mentioning), then this goes back to my previous comment, which I deleted. Be careful renting from individual owners on vacation rental sites. You do not always know the quality of what you are getting when you rent from an unknown individual owner, not to mention the financial risks.



And this was (apparently) a fairly high-end community with some very pricey units in the complex.
So, @Jayco29D your point is well taken.....and you can't always judge the quality either.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 26, 2018)

taterhed said:


> And this was (apparently) a fairly high-end community with some very pricey units in the complex.
> So, @Jayco29D your point is well taken.....and you can't always judge the quality either.



I noticed that for high end units in premier locations and with ocean views, AirBnB and VRBO are pretty pricey. So that is what convinced me to buy timeshares from reputable brands like Marriott, Westin, Disney, Four Seasons, etc. in high end locations with guaranteed views and/or selection of locations/views with points. It feels less risky in terms of financial and maintenance risk. Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought that an owner did not maintain their unit in a way that would put a family's life at risk.


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## hurnik (Mar 26, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> I noticed that for high end units in premier locations and with ocean views, AirBnB and VRBO are pretty pricey. So that is what convinced me to buy timeshares from reputable brands like Marriott, Westin, Disney, Four Seasons, etc. in high end locations with guaranteed views and/or selection of locations/views with points. It feels less risky in terms of financial and maintenance risk. Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought that an owner did not maintain their unit in a way that would put a family's life at risk.



Unfortunately people do that all the time with their own home (high end or otherwise).  Several times a year we'll see local news reports about a family or someone dying because of either no CO2 detectors or ones that they've never changed the battery.  Of course, that prompted Governor Cuomo to sign a law mandating something like all CO2 detectors sold in NY can't have removable batteries anymore (if they're battery powered alone), so that when it dies, it dies and you have to replace the whole unit.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 26, 2018)

hurnik said:


> Unfortunately people do that all the time with their own home (high end or otherwise).  Several times a year we'll see local news reports about a family or someone dying because of either no CO2 detectors or ones that they've never changed the battery.  Of course, that prompted Governor Cuomo to sign a law mandating something like all CO2 detectors sold in NY can't have removable batteries anymore (if they're battery powered alone), so that when it dies, it dies and you have to replace the whole unit.



Now that I think of it, you are probably right. We are meticulous about changing our smoke detector batteries, having a fire extinguisher in all locations and keeping up with maintenance and safety items at our homes and in my offices (I am a small business owner). It has never occurred to me other people don't do these things.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Mar 26, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Now that I think of it, you are probably right. We are meticulous ...... It has never occurred to me other people don't do these things.



Meticulous - organized - timeshare owner who plans ahead . Hmm...
<there are benefits to mild OCD>

Brian runs a self help forum . Timeshares just happen to be the topic .

PS - this is a compliment


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## Jayco29D (Mar 27, 2018)

The investigation seems to conclude death by asphyxiation due to a gas leak from a hot water heater. How can this happen in this day and age! I am so sad. 

https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/of...il&utm_term=0_f1536a3787-bb79ef641f-349557009


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## VacationForever (Mar 27, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> The investigation seems to conclude death by asphyxiation due to a gas leak from a hot water heater. How can this happen in this day and age! I am so sad.
> 
> https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/of...il&utm_term=0_f1536a3787-bb79ef641f-349557009


When I read that I think of all the homes I have owned and in the newer homes the water heater is housed either outside in an adjacent enclosure or within the garage.  In another home that was built in the 30s, the water heater was in a closet within the house.  Then on our last trip at Westin Mission Hills, we had complained that the water was not heating up, the technician came into the unit and opened up a closet.  I suspect the water heater is housed within timeshare condos, or in this case, dedicated condos.


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## pittle (Mar 28, 2018)

This is awful that it happened. After reading about this, one of my brothers sent us a Carbon Monoxide/Explosive Gas Monitor.  He said to plug it in wherever we are on vacation. He is looking out for sis!  I will add this to my rolling computer bag that is always ready to go. We will need it when we go to a condo in Rosarito Beach area for a month this summer for sure as we know there is gas water heater in a hall closet near the bedrooms.  

Since we are going to the Grand Bliss in Riviera Maya in 3 weeks, I'm not concerned as they do not have hot water heaters in the units, and it will be warm enough for A/C.


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## x3 skier (Mar 28, 2018)

Recently the observation about each one making their own risk assessment manifested itself to me.

Every year after spending the ski season in Steamboat Springs, I travel to my Raintree timeshare in one of their Mexican locations to “warm up”. A friend has traveled with me in the past but this year she felt it was too risky while I was not concerned at all.

So instead we’re taking a Eastern Caribbean cruise.

Cheers


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## PigsDad (Mar 28, 2018)

pittle said:


> Since we are going to the Grand Bliss in Riviera Maya in 3 weeks, I'm not concerned as they do not have hot water heaters in the units, and it will be warm enough for A/C.


Just a reminder -- if a unit has a gas stove, that has the same potential produce a gas leak as a water heater.

Kurt

P.S. Not sure what a "hot water heater" is -- why would you have to heat water that is hot already?


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## VacationForever (Mar 28, 2018)

We live in a condo where we only get electricity and there is no gas going to any units.  The building is also built of steel by a builder who specializes in building hospitals.  It was certainly a consideration when we were selecting between this condo and another condo across the lake.  The tragic death of this family reinforces that we made the right decision to own where we now live.


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## Eric B (Mar 28, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> Not sure what a "hot water heater" is -- why would you have to heat water that is hot already?



Technically speaking that analysis only applies to the initial batch heating of a water heater with a tank; once the water is at a temperature considered hot enough for household use a thermostat cycles power to the heater to keep the hot water hot.  In this state, it would really be a “hot water heater,” adding sufficient heat over time to make up for ambient losses.

It might be a bit different consideration in the case of a tankless one where the water is not batch heated and there’s no need to make up for ambient losses.  In such a case, however, there is a point in which water passing through the heater would be slightly above the desired “hot water” temperature at the tap in order to make up for ambient losses in the piping between the “hot water heater” and the point of use (i.e., the shower, tap, or dishwasher).  Given that at some point in the process it is hot water that is being heated, a tankless one could also be considered a “hot water heater.”

Bottom line is that to avoid needing a “hot water heater,” one would need perfect insulation to avoid heat losses to the piping and surrounding environment while delivering hot water to the point of use at the desired temperature.


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## taterhed (Mar 28, 2018)

Too soon...

Very sad about the family.

On the matter of the Gas/CO detectors:  based on the comments on Amazon, I might consider testing the explosive gas side of the detector (in a safe manner).  There have been some not-so-encouraging reports on the  combined detectors failing to detect explosive gasses.   Safe testing being the operative phrase here.

BTW:  I'm pretty sure that all CO detectors have a live span;  something like 5 years max.


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## pittle (Mar 28, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> Just a reminder -- if a unit has a gas stove, that has the same potential produce a gas leak as a water heater.
> 
> Kurt
> 
> P.S. Not sure what a "hot water heater" is -- why would you have to heat water that is hot already?



Because that is what my Dad always called a water heater - could be a South Carolina term since he grew up there.  (Some things just stick!)  Also, it keeps turning on to keep the water hot! 

Here in AZ, we have a solar water heater and a gas water heater.  When the temps outside are 110+, we do not need either!  The cold water is instantly hot when you turn it on - you have to wait for it to cool down as most of the water pipes that feed faucets are in the attic and with lots of insulation, it stays hot all day.  In August, the pool is 90 degrees.

I do know that Mayan World has only electric cook-tops in their units - I have stayed at every level sometime or another since 1999.


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## chriskre (Mar 30, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> I am so sorry about your cousin. What a horrible tragedy. I am glad you are in Miami now. That is my hometown. Neither I, nor anyone in my huge extended family, have ever had any crime problems in Miami. While I may criticize Miami at times (as a native does), it is certainly a safe city compared to what you have experienced in your life. Thank you for bringing a real world perspective to this thread.



I've been in Miami almost all my life since 1970.  
I wasn't born in DR but New York.  
I still have family there but they come to me now.
My condo couch is always a free hotel for any family
wanting to come.  I don't mind it.  
Cheaper than a timeshare.  

And yeah Miami definitely has it's areas and if you stay
out of them you usually do okay although that's changing.
I live in Brickell and we have had our share of crime.
Luckily nobody in our building has been killed but it has
happened in neighboring condos.  It's rare but it happens.
Probably drug related though as there is still alot of that
even in the "good" areas it's just hidden better like they
do in Cancun.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 31, 2018)

In spite of my posts here, we are planning another trip to Mexico next month. We'll just take our chances again! If I have any problems, I will let you know. Either way, I will let you know. Hopefully, it will be great.


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## Eric B (Mar 31, 2018)

Hope you have a great trip!  We’re heading down next week.


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 31, 2018)

USA Today, not my fav source, had a seemingly fair article today about recent events.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...st-fears-violence-cancun-los-cabos/471115002/


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## easyrider (Apr 2, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> In spite of my posts here, we are planning another trip to Mexico next month. We'll just take our chances again! If I have any problems, I will let you know. Either way, I will let you know. Hopefully, it will be great.



It looks like we scored a 3 bedroom penthouse on a warm beach in Mexico that we will be enjoying with good friends. The one thing that the perception of misfortune in Mexico creates is an opportunity for better vacations for those that go. Less competition makes better deals on goods and services.

Bill


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## Jayco29D (Apr 3, 2018)

easyrider said:


> It looks like we scored a 3 bedroom penthouse on a warm beach in Mexico that we will be enjoying with good friends. The one thing that the perception of misfortune in Mexico creates is an opportunity for better vacations for those that go. Less competition makes better deals on goods and services.
> 
> Bill



Where are you staying? I really like the Caribbean coast of Mexico. We refuse to swim in the Pacific coast.


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## buzglyd (Apr 3, 2018)

Just spent 10 days in Playa del Carmen and Bacalar. We had a wonderful time and would return tomorrow. 

Just stay in the tourist zone and don’t try to make drug deals in the city and you should be ok.


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## Jayco29D (Apr 3, 2018)

buzglyd said:


> Just spent 10 days in Playa del Carmen and Bacalar. We had a wonderful time and would return tomorrow.
> 
> Just stay in the tourist zone and don’t try to make drug deals in the city and you should be ok.



Love Playa del Carmen. We will be visiting next month.


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## easyrider (Apr 4, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Where are you staying? I really like the Caribbean coast of Mexico. We refuse to swim in the Pacific coast.



In a three bedroom penthouse very close to the beach in Mexico.

Bill


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

easyrider said:


> In a three bedroom penthouse very close to the beach in Mexico.
> 
> Bill



Sounds awesome. Enjoy!


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

From Northern California, there are only two warm beach destinations we can fly to nonstop: Hawaii or Mexico, not including Florida. I think folks on the East Coast and Texas are very lucky because you also have the option of flying non stop to many of the Caribbean islands. For us, that is a long trip. I used to visit the Caribbean a lot when I lived in Miami but only once since living in California.


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 5, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> From Northern California, there are only two warm beach destinations we can fly to nonstop: Hawaii or Mexico, not including Florida. I think folks on the East Coast and Texas are very lucky because you also have the option of flying non stop to many of the Caribbean islands. For us, that is a long trip. I used to visit the Caribbean a lot when I lived in Miami but only once since living in California.



Isn't where you live kind of your choice?


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Isn't where you live kind of your choice?



Yes, not complaining, just commenting on how lucky folks in other parts of country are to be able to have so many non stop flights. SFO is very limited. LA is a better airport for non stop flights (but I would never live there either). I would like to move but my spouse likes the expensive, high paying rat race in Northern Cal.


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

Also, my comment is my rationale for why we go to Mexico and Hawaii so often. I would prefer to travel to Caribbean more often but the travel is exhausting. So we are going back to Mexico again next month. 6 times in 12 months to Mexico!


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 5, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Yes, not complaining, just commenting on how lucky folks in other parts of country are to be able to have so many non stop flights. SFO is very limited. LA is a better airport for non stop flights (but I would never live there either). I would like to move but my spouse likes the expensive, high paying rat race in Northern Cal.



We selected where we live for all the reasons you mentioned (and more) with forethought! Not expensive, no rat race, DFW or DAL (SWA) gets me anywhere. And if I want to be cheap domestic, sometimes OKC pays off. I was just hassling you. Availability of flights and central location was high on our list.


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## VacationForever (Apr 5, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Yes, not complaining, just commenting on how lucky folks in other parts of country are to be able to have so many non stop flights. SFO is very limited. LA is a better airport for non stop flights (but I would never live there either). I would like to move but my spouse likes the expensive, high paying rat race in Northern Cal.


We outgrew our love for California after we became small business owners.  It was nice when we were employees of high tech companies drawing nice paychecks, we loved everything about California then.  We moved out but still return to Southern California area to get away from the heat.  We now have the best of both worlds.  We prefer to vacation in California over Mexico and Hawaii because we do not need to catch a flight.


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 5, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> We outgrew our love for California after we became small business owners.  It was nice when we were employees of high tech companies drawing nice paychecks, we loved everything about California then.  We moved out but still return to Southern California area to get away from the heat.  We now have the best of both worlds.  We prefer to vacation in California over Mexico and Hawaii because we do not need to catch a flight.



Yeah, as odd as it may sound to some, a lot of Californians here. They sell their houses, buy one here 2 times as big or nice, and pocket the rest and retire. Assuming they are mostly paid off houses of course. They can buy 4-6 houses similar to the one they own out West of the same size and quality, so, they usually upgrade significantly. With the advent of numerous stay at home jobs, like I had for much of my career, little reason to live somewhere expensive, unless you just want to of course.


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> We outgrew our love for California after we became small business owners.  It was nice when we were employees of high tech companies drawing nice paychecks, we loved everything about California then.  We moved out but still return to Southern California area to get away from the heat.  We now have the best of both worlds.  We prefer to vacation in California over Mexico and Hawaii because we do not need to catch a flight.



That is my plan. My spouse works for a high tech company so my spouse does not want to move. I am a small business owner and I am over regulated and over taxed (hence why the timeshare tax rants annoy me). I am ready to retire early, if only I could convince my spouse we have enough money. My spouse is one of those people who thinks we never have enough. I hope to one day have an address like you “somewhere out there”...LOL.


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Yeah, as odd as it may sound to some, a lot of Californians here. They sell their houses, buy one here 2 times as big or nice, and pocket the rest and retire. Assuming they are mostly paid off houses of course. They can buy 4-6 houses similar to the one they own out West of the same size and quality, so, they usually upgrade significantly. With the advent of numerous stay at home jobs, like I had for much of my career, little reason to live somewhere expensive, unless you just want to of course.



Exactly, I think anything below $1.5 million for a nice home is a bargain. In Bay Area, that is a tear down.


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

When you live in the Silicon Valley, your sense of money become warped. It is very sad. A tiny house on my block sold in one day. It is half as nice as our house and it was asking $1.8 million. We thought it was a tear down. I assume it sold above asking.


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## VacationForever (Apr 5, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Yeah, as odd as it may sound to some, a lot of Californians here. They sell their houses, buy one here 2 times as big or nice, and pocket the rest and retire. Assuming they are mostly paid off houses of course. They can buy 4-6 houses similar to the one they own out West of the same size and quality, so, they usually upgrade significantly. With the advent of numerous stay at home jobs, like I had for much of my career, little reason to live somewhere expensive, unless you just want to of course.


Not surprising... looking at the stats, many retirees move out of California as well as businesses that could be transplanted.  But my son does not want to leave California and I travel back to see him several times a year.  Changes are hard for him.  He has decided to pursue a second Bachelor's degree and I am supportive.  Anything that will help him get a job that he thinks he will enjoy.  I am very mobile and have always been so as I love an adventure.  I have lived and worked in 3 different countries, courtesy of my former employer.


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> We selected where we live for all the reasons you mentioned (and more) with forethought! Not expensive, no rat race, DFW or DAL (SWA) gets me anywhere. And if I want to be cheap domestic, sometimes OKC pays off. I was just hassling you. Availability of flights and central location was high on our list.



I have suggested Dallas to my spouse for those reasons. I do not get a positive reaction. Some people are very attached to California. Also no state income tax in Texas. A huge benefit.


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## VacationForever (Apr 5, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> When you live in the Silicon Valley, your sense of money become warped. It is very sad. A tiny house on my block sold in one day. It is half as nice as our house and it was asking $1.8 million. We thought it was a tear down. I assume it sold above asking.


Tell your spouse that when you both move out of California, cash out on your home and you will both feel RICH!


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> Not surprising... looking at the stats, many retirees move out of California as well as businesses that could be transplanted.  But my son does not want to leave California and I travel back to see him several times a year.  Changes are hard for him.  He has decided to pursue a second Bachelor's degree and I am supportive.  Anything that will help him get a job that he thinks he will enjoy.  I am very mobile and have always been so as I love an adventure.  I have lived and worked in 3 different countries, courtesy of my former employer.



I am now just trying to get my spouse to move across the border to Nevada. Our second home is near Tahoe, so maybe I can convince my spouse to move to Incline Village. I think Las Vegas area is a no go.


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> Tell your spouse that when you both move out of California, cash out on your home and you will both feel RICH!



We have two California homes and a 22 acre lot in Carmel. If we could cash out of all of that, we could retire, not to mention everything else!


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

I have looked at the stats and the outflow from California is greater than the inflow expect for foreigners and immigrants. California is no longer nirvana.


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## VacationForever (Apr 5, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> I am now just trying to get my spouse to move across the border to Nevada. Our second home is near Tahoe, so maybe I can convince my spouse to move to Incline Village. I think Las Vegas area is a no go.


If you google Lake Las Vegas, that may change your perception of "Las Vegas area".  It is a resort where people live.


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> If you google Lake Las Vegas, that may change your perception of "Las Vegas area".  It is a resort where people live.



I will look at that. I think living south might be better for travel in retirement because we could fly out of Las Vegas or LA or other nearby airports. Northern Cal has limited direct flights, even out of SFO. I am ready to retire in 3 years max. I would have retired next year but the spouse protested.


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

X


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 5, 2018)

It takes *very* little money to live very well in some parts of the country. I am living on savings until 59.5, when I can then withdraw from IRA without penalty until 62, when an old pension kicks in along with SS. We have more money than we ever had while working, by far, and few worries and no rat race. And many things become cheaper too just because you are a “senior”.


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 5, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> I have suggested Dallas to my spouse for those reasons. I do not get a positive reaction. Some people are very attached to California. Also no state income tax in Texas. A huge benefit.



We moved just north of the border as no state tax is ok if you have income, but terrible if you are retired. They make up for it on property tax. 

Your 1.5 million would buy quite a few massive and fancy houses!


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

That is what I tell my spouse. I keep saying we will be dead before we run out of money. It is so frustrating.


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> We moved just north of the border as no state tax is ok if you have income, but terrible if you are retired. They make up for it on property tax.
> 
> Your 1.5 million would buy quite a few massive and fancy houses!



One of our houses is worth far more than that. If we combine all our real estate, it would be more than most people could ever imagine. I was just saying that would be a cheap house for us in another state bc our sense of value of so warped. In our neighborhood, $1.8 million is a small tear down. Our total property taxes are more than most homes. So when I hear people on TUG ranting about timeshare property taxes, I just roll my eyes.


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 5, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> One of our houses is worth far more than that. If we combine all our real estate, it would be more than most people could ever imagine. I was just saying that would be a cheap house for us in another state bc our sense of value of so warped. In our neighborhood, $1.8 million is a small tear down.



Yep. Property tax on 1.5 mil home in McKinney TX, a suburb but hardly fancy suburb, would run over 30k/yr. 1/5th of that or so here. But such a house is unfathomable! Can’t imagine wanting to pay so much for an owned house every month once retired!


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

Actually, 2% on property taxes is not bad for Texas, given you have no state tax.


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 5, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Actually, 2% on property taxes is not bad for Texas, given you have no state tax.



Except when retired. If I pay 30k/ yr for property tax on a house I own until I die (though it will likely go up), why would I do that when exact same house <1 hour north would save me 2k/mo the rest of my life (and cost less too)? I guess one might have their reasons but that not for me! I am not a Texan for this reason. Could retire and enjoy life much sooner, no pun intended.


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

X


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## Jayco29D (Apr 5, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Except when retired. If I pay 30k/ yr for property tax on a house I own until I die (though it will likely go up), why would I do that when exact same house <1 hour north would save me 2k/mo the rest of my life? I guess one might have their reasons but that not for me! i am not a Texan for this reason.



So which state would be best and why? Where did you live before retirement?


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 5, 2018)

No idea. It’s just one of many factors. Just saying consider that as one of many factors. We are Okies because of property tax which they also freeze here for seniors. We have a lot of family too in DFW so would be hard to move away and we love it now anyway. For what you would pay in property tax in this example, trivial to live, pay all bills, travel, etc! So, you are likely right, you’d have to throw away your money to run out! 

My brother moved from Maryland to Pennsylvania for the same reason, property tax. And also retired as a result! 

A $200k house here is likely far bigger and better than your friends example house. Its an expensive house! All relative of course.


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## pianoetudes (May 3, 2018)

Hi everyone. I was visiting Cozumel Island yesterday. The cruise ship docked at international pier and we took drive-yourself jeep tour to Punta sur National Park. We felt safe in the island. Road conditions is fine. 

Sent from my HTC U11 life using Tapatalk


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## klpca (May 3, 2018)

pianoetudes said:


> Hi everyone. I was visiting Cozumel Island yesterday. The cruise ship docked at international pier and we took drive-yourself jeep tour to Punta sur National Park. We felt safe in the island. Road conditions is fine.
> 
> Sent from my HTC U11 life using Tapatalk


We've been on Cozumel since Saturday. All is well. This place is awesome.


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## Carol C (May 4, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> Tell your spouse that when you both move out of California, cash out on your home and you will both feel RICH!


And then you can retire to Mexico! (How sneaky of me to try to get this all back on topic!)


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## TravelTime (May 5, 2018)

Another interesting article on crime in Mexico: https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/co...il&utm_term=0_f1536a3787-318eab5581-349557009

It states: 
“Witte said that Mexican people have lost confidence in the nation’s institutions, supporting his claim by citing a statistic that only 2% of crimes are reported to authorities.”

So the 29,000 murders in Mexico in 2017 and 57 in Cancun in April 2018 may only represent 2% of reported murders.

Remember we do not have statistics on all crimes in Mexico, just the murder rate. If we add in burglary, car jacking, kidnapping, sexual assault and any other crimes - many of which occur against Mexicans as well as tourists but go unreported, I would guess there are tens of millions of crimes per year in Mexico and the tourist areas.

Also, if you rent a car and get lost by just a few blocks in Cancun, Cabo, Cozumel or Puerto Vallarta, you are at risk. Things change significantly from one block to the next.


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## TravelTime (May 5, 2018)

klpca said:


> We've been on Cozumel since Saturday. All is well. This place is awesome.



Have you rented a car in Cozumel and gotten lost going from the airport to the Oceanside hotels? It is not exactly dangerous but it’s quite a wild ride. We got lost for miles and driving in the areas where the locals live is nothing like getting off a cruise ship in Cozumel or staying in the tourist zone.


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## klpca (May 6, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Have you rented a car in Cozumel and gotten lost going from the airport to the Oceanside hotels? It is not exactly dangerous but it’s quite a wild ride. We got lost for miles and driving in the areas where the locals live in nothing like getting off a cruise ship in Cozumel or staying in the tourist zone.


We spent a week at the Explorean where all of your excursions are included. We only drove one day - a jeep tour of the island. We were there primarily for water activities and Cozumel did not disappoint. Awesome swimming, snorkeling, and kayaking!


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## PigsDad (May 6, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> It states:
> “Witte said that Mexican people have lost confidence in the nation’s institutions, supporting his claim by citing a statistic that only 2% of crimes are reported to authorities.”
> 
> So the 29,000 murders in Mexico in 2017 and 57 in Cancun in April 2018 may only represent 2% of reported murders.


That is quite a stretch to equate the reported general crime report rate with the reported murder rate, don't you think?  Do you really believe that?

Kurt


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## TravelTime (May 6, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> That is quite a stretch to equate the reported general crime report rate with the reported murder rate, don't you think?  Do you really believe that?
> 
> Kurt



It probably is quite a stretch but the point is no one knows the true statistics in Mexico since so much in unreported. Many people just go missing.


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## PamMo (May 6, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> ...supporting his claim by citing a statistic that only 2% of crimes are reported to authorities.”
> 
> So the 29,000 murders in Mexico in 2017 and 57 in Cancun in April 2018 may only represent 2% of reported murders.



You are jumping to conclusions based on faulty reasoning. You're suggesting 1.5 MILLION people are murdered per year in Mexico? Respectfully, this is simply not true, and adds to the disinformation and fear mongering about Mexico, something we should all seek to avoid. Tuggers want to know facts so they can make informed decisions about their travel plans (or not) to Mexico.

Crimes are under reported all around the world. According to DOJ studies, only 42% of violent crimes in the US are reported. Only one in three property crimes gets reported here. Mr. Witte did not cite any studies to back his claims of 2% under reporting - of what crimes exactly? You're making assumptions that have no basis in fact. And yes, I did a Google search on this because I think this thread has gone off the rails of being helpful.

TravelTime, please don't think I'm singling you out. I think you mean well, but I question the logic of your assertions that Mexico is an extremely dangerous destination for tourists.


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## Eric B (May 6, 2018)

I completely agree with you, Pam; this thread seems to be degenerating into a political discussion of how unsafe people perceive Mexico to be.  It doesn’t seem to contain much in the way of new information, except for the reports by folks actually staying there regarding their experiences with the security situation.  I do value that as new information, but believe second or third hand reporting has considerably less value.


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## klpca (May 6, 2018)

In addition to staying in Cozumel, we took a ride on the formerly exploding ferry and even flew home on southwest airlines. It was an all-around risky trip, lol. My dad was seriously fearful for our lives - couldn't understand why we had to go to Mexico. (I'll leave it there - his rant would not go uncensored on TUG). We were so scared.


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## TravelTime (May 6, 2018)

PamMo said:


> You are jumping to conclusions based on faulty reasoning. You're suggesting 1.5 MILLION people are murdered per year in Mexico? Respectfully, this is simply not true, and adds to the disinformation and fear mongering about Mexico, something we should all seek to avoid. Tuggers want to know facts so they can make informed decisions about their travel plans (or not) to Mexico.
> 
> Crimes are under reported all around the world. According to DOJ studies, only 42% of violent crimes in the US are reported. Only one in three property crimes gets reported here. Mr. Witte did not cite any studies to back his claims of 2% under reporting - of what crimes exactly? You're making assumptions that have no basis in fact. And yes, I did a Google search on this because I think this thread has gone off the rails of being helpful.
> 
> TravelTime, please don't think I'm singling you out. I think you mean well, but I question the logic of your assertions that Mexico is an extremely dangerous destination for tourists.



Well, let’s wait and see. Last year and this year were pretty bad for locals and some tourists.


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## TravelTime (May 6, 2018)

Eric B said:


> I completely agree with you, Pam; this thread seems to be degenerating into a political discussion of how unsafe people perceive Mexico to be.  It doesn’t seem to contain much in the way of new information, except for the reports by folks actually staying there regarding their experiences with the security situation.  I do value that as new information, but believe second or third hand reporting has considerably less value.



I do not see any political discussion in this thread. Mainly just news postings and personal opinions both good and not so good.


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## TravelTime (May 7, 2018)

Just so you do not think I am biased, here is a fairly positive and optimistic recent article in the New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/27/travel/mexico-tourism-violence.html


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## whitewater (May 7, 2018)

PamMo said:


> You are jumping to conclusions based on faulty reasoning. You're suggesting 1.5 MILLION people are murdered per year in Mexico? Respectfully, this is simply not true, and adds to the disinformation and fear mongering about Mexico, something we should all seek to avoid. Tuggers want to know facts so they can make informed decisions about their travel plans (or not) to Mexico.
> 
> Crimes are under reported all around the world. According to DOJ studies, only 42% of violent crimes in the US are reported. Only one in three property crimes gets reported here. Mr. Witte did not cite any studies to back his claims of 2% under reporting - of what crimes exactly? You're making assumptions that have no basis in fact. And yes, I did a Google search on this because I think this thread has gone off the rails of being helpful.
> 
> TravelTime, please don't think I'm singling you out. I think you mean well, but I question the logic of your assertions that Mexico is an extremely dangerous destination for tourists.


thank you - very true common sense response.


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