# Owner Update: [Owner Told Change Was Coming!] Merged w/Reasons to buy from Developer



## jjmanthei05 (Apr 14, 2010)

We went to an owners update at Glacier Canyon and got one of the best stories I think I have ever heard. We were told there was a vote at the last annual meeting for Wyndham to only allow resale owners to go to their home resort and trade through RCI but not be able to go to other Wyndham resorts. He stated that it would need to be ratified at this year’s meeting and then it was a done deal. He stated that "real" owners were upset that they paid thousands of dollars and we got ours for hundreds and since resales are only a small percentage of ownership (5-10%) this would pass no problem. Then he offered that if we only paid $16,000 for another 154K points we wouldn't have that problem and our resale contract would be converted to a developer purchase otherwise we would never again have the chance to convert our resale deed. At that point with my DW pissed to high heaven, I stated that if that passed we would just buy GC points resale so we wouldn't have that problem and then left.


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## Rob&Carol Q (Apr 14, 2010)

Jaw dropping audacity...that's all I can really say.  You would think at some point the weasels would start to have a bad conscious.  Wyndham, and Fairfield before them, have always tried to create the appearance of two classes of owners.  Truthfully, I think the % of resale owners is much higher…and climbing.

Did you at least get your "Free Gift"???


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## dcdowden (Apr 14, 2010)

What these sales people and seemingly all Wyndham executives don't seem to get is that the more they devalue ownership on the resale market, the LESS likely people are to buy from them directly. Who wants to buy something that will be virtually worthless the day after you buy it and that also commits you to paying substantial fees forever.
Doug


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## ace2000 (Apr 14, 2010)

dcdowden said:


> What these sales people and seemingly all Wyndham executives don't seem to get is that the more they devalue ownership on the resale market, the LESS likely people are to buy from them directly. Who wants to buy something that will be virtually worthless the day after you buy it and that also commits you to paying substantial fees forever.
> Doug


 
Maybe so, but the sales people are preying on the people that currently have no idea about the resale market.  That will not change for a long time.  You would think that people would not buy an item for several thousand dollars that cannot be re-sold the next day for a $100, but they do, mostly because they are uninformed.  So, I don't think the resale issue and current resale pricing make any difference at all.


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## jjmanthei05 (Apr 14, 2010)

We did but dealing with them wasn't worth the fudge


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## sally13 (Oct 12, 2010)

*bravo!!!!*

 I know you will all hate me but.....this I think is a very FAIR solution..sorry folks you get what you pay for


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 12, 2010)

Sally,

I'm guessing you either don't own or have a developer purchase. If Wyndham actually instituted this policy the system would fall apart. Let's assume that 20% of all owners are resale. If they instituted this 20% of your available inventory would be gone! this would then piss "real" owners off causing them to sell since there isn't as much available inventory causing the downward spiral. The system works because I can use your deeded inventory and you can use mine. If you take mine away your "value" decreases because it gives you less chance of going when you want to go and where you want to go. Do you think the resort management side of Wyndham cares where the MF come from or just that they get paid?

Jason


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## BellaWyn (Oct 12, 2010)

sally13 said:


> I know you will all hate me but.....this I think is a very FAIR solution..sorry folks you get what you pay for


A) We don't hate you. 
B) It's a ridiculous solution. 

As both a D-Purchase AND Resale-Purchase owner this approach would not work for a plethora of reasons, Jason having stated only one. Another being that it puts the onus on the resort personnel to make the distinction in guests visiting the property.  It's only the sales people that care or derive any benefit from the information.  Why saddle the resort staff with this additional burden when they have enough on their hands just making sure you get a lovely holiday.

Jason, if you're going to put your poor DW through the sales presentations try to prep her in advance to get Zen about what comes out of the salespeople's mouth.  WYN isn't the only organization that encourages getting "creative" when it comes to sales.  It's like walking into a car dealer.  You KNOW you're going to get a pile of crap on the front end and unless you go armed with knowledge, it's just going to be a verbal tap dance before you really get to what you want to buy.

Oh, and Sally, WELCOME TO TUG!


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 12, 2010)

Caite,

After the experience stated above we no longer do the owner updates. I didn't even know about TUG until we went through that update and started to research the "salesman speak" we were presented. It makes my vacation much less stressful since my wife isn't pissed off at having to sit through them. We are actually checking in at GC tomorrow for the weekend. I am SOOOOOO looking forward to the parking pass desk dance. Its the highlight of every check in. :hysterical: 

Actually in a way if the salespeople weren't fear mongering tools, I would have never found TUG. So at least something good came out of that update besides the fudge...

Jason


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## BellaWyn (Oct 12, 2010)

jjmanthei05 said:


> I am SOOOOOO looking forward to the parking pass desk dance. Its the highlight of every check in. :hysterical:
> 
> Actually in a way if the salespeople weren't fear mongering tools, I would have never found TUG. So at least something good came out of that update besides the fudge...


Out of adversity comes knowledge!  :whoopie: 

Cha Cha Cha!  Have a good time!


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## sally13 (Oct 13, 2010)

*yes but,,,,*

hi Jason.....   you have to agree that there should be some extra perks from buying developer direct...in fact ,.that is where this industry  is headed. some people do not care about the resale people flaunting there awesome bargains.others feel taken ....the industry will remedy this in several ways...plus it gives them a new angle to speel...yes I bought developer and enjoy the resort...only it is so darn hard to get choice weeks... I do believe I should  have a leg up on the garage sale puchaser....I am sure there are plenty here that would agree but will not say....simple... I get first dibbs on weeks because I PAY THE LARGE MF.........anything less then this and the TIMESHARE INDUSTRY WILL MOST LIKELY DIE!! they know this...changes coming...translation...ebay puchasers find it harder to get into the better resorts


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## sally13 (Oct 13, 2010)

*yes*

   thanks bellawyn!!


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## timeos2 (Oct 13, 2010)

*Keep kidding yourself. You do know someone PAID full price, right?*



sally13 said:


> hi Jason.....   you have to agree that there should be some extra perks from buying developer direct...in fact ,.that is where this industry  is headed. some people do not care about the resale people flaunting there awesome bargains.others feel taken ....the industry will remedy this in several ways...plus it gives them a new angle to speel...yes I bought developer and enjoy the resort...only it is so darn hard to get choice weeks... I do believe I should  have a leg up on the garage sale puchaser....I am sure there are plenty here that would agree but will not say....simple... I get first dibbs on weeks because I PAY THE LARGE MF.........anything less then this and the TIMESHARE INDUSTRY WILL MOST LIKELY DIE!! they know this...changes coming...translation...ebay puchasers find it harder to get into the better resorts



Are you serious? You REALLY believe you are entitled to "more" because you bought retail? So did someone else -who had to/ choose to sell - to what then becomes a resale buyer. Who, by the way, pays EXACTLY the same annual fees as you. The only difference is what they paid to get the use rights - and that cost, retail or resale, has ZERO impact on what use rights they have or what fees they pay on those rights - just like you.

I have a feeling you don't really understand how a timeshare/condo ownership works or you wouldn't hold false expectations. You may want to read up on it so you don't overpay for anything else you decide to buy or have unrealistic expectations about what use rights you have and how use at resorts get distributed. Your posted "facts" couldn't be more wrong. You have no more rights to any specific week than any other owner no matter what you or they paid or how they acquired that ownership.


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## rapmarks (Oct 13, 2010)

dcdowden said:


> What these sales people and seemingly all Wyndham executives don't seem to get is that the more they devalue ownership on the resale market, the LESS likely people are to buy from them directly. Who wants to buy something that will be virtually worthless the day after you buy it and that also commits you to paying substantial fees forever.
> Doug




Exactly!!!!


We were at a Wyndham resort in Sept.  At the parking pass desk they asked us to do a 5 minute survey.  We were very leery but agreed.  The woman came to our room, spent 5 minutes , and gave us a tote bag.  That was it.  Why did they do that?   Another couple our age did the 5 minute survey, went in to hear more, spent 3 hours, didn't get anything else.


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 13, 2010)

sally13 said:


> hi Jason.....   you have to agree that there should be some extra perks from buying developer direct...in fact ,.that is where this industry  is headed. some people do not care about the resale people flaunting there awesome bargains.others feel taken ....the industry will remedy this in several ways...plus it gives them a new angle to speel...yes I bought developer and enjoy the resort...only it is so darn hard to get choice weeks... I do believe I should  have a leg up on the garage sale puchaser....I am sure there are plenty here that would agree but will not say....simple... I get first dibbs on weeks because I PAY THE LARGE MF.........anything less then this and the TIMESHARE INDUSTRY WILL MOST LIKELY DIE!! they know this...changes coming...translation...ebay puchasers find it harder to get into the better resorts



Sally,

I wont go into what John covered because I agree with (and would have repeated) pretty much everything he said. What I will point out is something from the WAAM presentation to Wyndham shareholders on the towers grove property. They said they can get 1.2 million in sales for what someone would normally pay $140,000 as a whole ownership condo (I am paraphrasing I don't have the doc in front of me) and that doesn't include the Maintenance fee that is associated with it. So when timeshare valuations fall more inline with actual market valuations then there wont be such a disparity between resales and developer purchases. When you figure an average 2 bedroom week (154,000 points) is $750, in MF that alone would be a monthly payment of $3,250 for an entire year ownership. If that was your mortgage payment on your house that would be a 350,000 - 400,000 property and that's not counting any of the 1.2 mill they collect up front for the unit. That right there is why the discrepancy in resales are at the prices they are because the market valuations are more in line with what people would actually pay for those properties if they were purchased outright. 

The next time you go to a sales presentation or owners update and can get a salesperson to actually tell you the truth, ask what the difference in ownership and services received if you bought a 154,000 point package from the developer (for about $15,000) or the exact same package on eBay for about $700 including closing costs and adding the $2495 Plus Partners upgrade from corporate direct. There is absolutely no difference in ownership or the services you have between those two. The only difference is about $12,000 in cost. 

Jason


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 13, 2010)

rapmarks said:


> Exactly!!!!
> 
> 
> We were at a Wyndham resort in Sept.  At the parking pass desk they asked us to do a 5 minute survey.  We were very leery but agreed.  The woman came to our room, spent 5 minutes , and gave us a tote bag.  That was it.  Why did they do that?   Another couple our age did the 5 minute survey, went in to hear more, spent 3 hours, didn't get anything else.



Because they have no idea what they are getting into, they aren't smart enough to say no or they are sipping the developer cool-aid.  

Jason


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 13, 2010)

*Nobody Here But Us Bottom-Feeding Bargain Hunters.*




sally13 said:


> you have to agree that there should be some extra perks from buying developer direct...in fact ,.that is where this industry  is headed. some people do not care about the resale people flaunting there awesome bargains.others feel taken ....the industry will remedy this in several ways...plus it gives them a new angle to speel...yes I bought developer and enjoy the resort...only it is so darn hard to get choice weeks... I do believe I should  have a leg up on the garage sale puchaser....I am sure there are plenty here that would agree but will not say....simple... I get first dibbs on weeks because I PAY THE LARGE MF.........anything less then this and the TIMESHARE INDUSTRY WILL MOST LIKELY DIE!! they know this...changes coming...translation...ebay puchasers find it harder to get into the better resorts


Maintenance fees are the same for all owners, full-freight or resale or recipients of _el freebo_ giveaways _mox nix_.  

However that may be, you have put your finger on some deeply felt & strongly held feelings that do influence how the full-freight timeshare biz works & how the full-freight timeshare sellers pitch their spiel to potential customers.  

One example is the high-status Platinum-Plus VIP categories of ownership available only to full freight buyers, leaving all us no-status bottom-feeding bargain hunters out in the cold where we deserve to be.  _Mox nix_ that the benefits, such as they are, which come with the high-status Platinum-Plus VIP ownership categories are worth lots less than the premium prices the full-freight owners pay for them -- not to mention that those benefits are not guaranteed & may disappear or diminish at any time.  

Another example is Right Of 1st Refusal -- ROFR (roffer) -- which the timeshare sellers explain by saying ROFR keeps resale prices from going "too low."  Thus they plant the idea that nobody can buy in cheap, that by paying full freight, the big bux owners are secure in not having to worry that they will ever have to rub shoulders at the timeshare with no-status resale buyers who don't deserve to own there.  Never mind that resale prices can (& do) sink ever so low, & never mind that when the bottom does drop out the timeshare companies simply quit exercising ROFR, meaning that the bottom-feeding bargain hunters can start showing up right next to you at the resort check-in desk & in the timeshare swimming pool anyhow.  

The full-freight timeshare sellers manage to undermine somewhat their own sales points favoring buying at full freight when they point out that what they're selling is _Deeded Real Estate_ that you can use yourself, that you can rent out, that you can bequeath to your heirs, & that _you can sell on the open market_.  

Well, if you can sell your timeshare for whatever it's worth (a little or a lot, _mox nix_), then somebody else can jolly well buy it -- buy, that is, _exactly_ what you own that you are selling, precisely the rights & privileges (minus VIP benefits) that are written down in your signed & sealed deed, no more & no less. 

The bottom line is _Buy Timeshares Resale_.  Save thousands of dollars on exactly the same thing as full freight, or the equivalent, or something even better. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 13, 2010)

*You Are Correct, Sir.*




jjmanthei05 said:


> The next time you go to a sales presentation or owners update and can get a salesperson to actually tell you the truth, ask what the difference in ownership and services received if you bought a 154,000 point package from the developer (for about $15,000) or the exact same package on eBay for about $700 including closing costs and adding the $2495 Plus Partners upgrade from corporate direct. There is absolutely no difference in ownership or the services you have between those two. The only difference is about $12,000 in cost.


You typed a mouthful. 

When you ask'm that, that's when they redouble the energy with which they're pitching VIP perks & PIC benefits & I don't know what-all -- i.e., quickly & slickly changing the subject. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## sally13 (Oct 13, 2010)

*sheesh!*

I guess I opened a can of whoop ass!!!...I do get that this is a resale forum..but the way I see it ,things are always changing..as more people use ebay, craigs list ect......the more educated they will be..do not think for a moment that the developers are not thinking on how to even the playing field..and what I mean about m. f.'s is that I pay $1000. an exchanger filling up the resort calender may pay $600.on his week...at some point the better resorts WILL remedy this...point is.. my resort is crowded..this will swing to resorts deed holders favor ..oh I guess I am nuts?? we will see


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## BellaWyn (Oct 13, 2010)

> Because they have no idea what they are getting into,


This I agree with and it applies to a LOT of guests and visitors that are new to TS.  Many of whom got there via a rental or were sent by friends or family.:whoopie: 


> ...they aren't smart enough to say no


This I take issue with.  Can we please leave intelligence out of the equation?  There are a LOT of very smart people that purchased from a developer (Goof, that means you, right? ) who at one time or another didn't have the advantage of the internet or the collective knowledge we call TUG.  It's annoying that not buying resale is perceived as "unintelligent" in this forum.:annoyed:   Jason, I get this might be a semantics error on your part but the perspective seems to be an ongoing sentiment from other TUG members and smacks as inappropriate.


> ...or they are sipping the developer cool-aid.


This....  just funny.  :rofl: No drinking the developer cool-aid.


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 13, 2010)

BellaWyn said:


> This I agree with and it applies to a LOT of guests and visitors that are new to TS.  Many of whom got there via a rental or were sent by friends or family.:whoopie:
> 
> This I take issue with.  Can we please leave intelligence out of the equation?  There are a LOT of very smart people that purchased from a developer (Goof, that means you, right? ) who at one time or another didn't have the advantage of the internet or the collective knowledge we call TUG.  It's annoying that not buying resale is perceived as "unintelligent" in this forum.:annoyed:   Jason, I get this might be a semantics error on your part but the perspective seems to be an ongoing sentiment from other TUG members and smacks as inappropriate.
> 
> This....  just funny.  :rofl: No drinking the developer cool-aid.



I should rephrase this as not informed enough to say no. Sorry poor choice of words.

Jason


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 13, 2010)

sally13 said:


> I guess I opened a can of whoop ass!!!...I do get that this is a resale forum..but the way I see it ,things are always changing..as more people use ebay, craigs list ect......the more educated they will be..do not think for a moment that the developers are not thinking on how to even the playing field..and what I mean about m. f.'s is that I pay $1000. an exchanger filling up the resort calender may pay $600.on his week...at some point the better resorts WILL remedy this...point is.. my resort is crowded..this will swing to resorts deed holders favor ..oh I guess I am nuts?? we will see



The exchanging issue of resort values is an on going discussion on the exchange board. Developers have little control over exchanging because the owners have to deposit their weeks to have someone exchange in. With the supposed change to RCI, an owner will be able to see what their resort is worth compared to the resort they are exchanging into.  The way the developers can remedy that is by exercising Right of First Refusal. That way they can set a bottom to resale prices. DVC does this very well. You can purchase resale for DVC but the resale price will be within 5% of Developer price and there is no difference in "perks" based on purchase type. I don't know if you own Wyndham or some other timeshare but if your resort is full all the time then that should be a benefit to you on the resale market since there is demand for the property. 

Jason


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 13, 2010)

*Au Contraire, Mon Frère.*




jjmanthei05 said:


> The way the developers can remedy that is by exercising Right of First Refusal. That way they can set a bottom to resale prices.


Sorry, Jason, ROFR doesn't do that. 

Even when ROFR was alive & well, resale prices could & did sink way low.  All that ROFR does is stack the deck so that regular walking around people don't get to buy the low-valued weeks, only the timeshare company does. 

If my ROFR timeshare that I'm trying to sell gets so far down into the _el cheapo_ range that you make me a lowball offer that I accept, ROFR -- when ROFR is in the picture & is working -- simply means that the timeshare company elbows you out of the way & replaces you as the buyer of my timeshare at your lowball price.  I don't get 1 nickel more thanks to ROFR than I was going to get anyway. 

ROFR *=* ROFL.  Always did.  Always will. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 13, 2010)

*Let Us Hope.*




sally13 said:


> do not think for a moment that the developers are not thinking on how to even the playing field.


Which is likelier, that the timeshare companies will truly level the field on the 1 hand, or on the other hand that they will keep coming up with more new ways of pulling the wool over people's eyes ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 13, 2010)

sally13 said:


> ...I do get that this is a resale forum...



Actually, we don't ask and don't care what you paid for your timeshare or IF you even own one. Many of us have brought from the developer, even after joining TUG.  There is no right answer as to what you decide is right for you to use or own. Making the best informed choice for you is what most of us here hope for.

Sally13, Welcome to TUG! Hang around for awhile. 

And as for RCI/II exchangers filling up your resort - someone deposited their week and usage for that RCI/II exchanger to grab *OR* the developer deposited unsold inventory to the RCI/II exchange company in hopes of getting these guests to buy from the developer.  The RCI/II exchange company didn't hack into your resort's checkin computer and assigned these RCI/II exchangers units to stay in.  

Additionally, if your MFs are $1,000 and you could RCI/II exchange your week for a Hawaiian resort with $2400 MF, would you make that RCI/II exchange? I have an RCI exchange end of the month to a more modest resort than I usually go to - I chose to go because it is New Orleans & the Garden District.  Last month I got into Manhatten Club for a week, at about half of that resort's MFs. Win some; lose some - usually it all equals out in dollars. But I rather measure the trades in, _Is that what I want to do?_ or _Will I have fun?_

And believe me, I will have a lot of fun in NOLA as that is something I want to do. And I really could love being in NYC, if I can win the lottery bigtime before going back in 47 months...


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 13, 2010)

*Timeshare, Timeshare On The Wall.  What's The Fairest Deed Of All ?*




sally13 said:


> I think is a very FAIR solution.


What is it exactly that you are declaring _fair_ ? 

Shutting Wyndham resale owners out of internal Wyndham points exchanges ? 

Limiting Wyndham resale owners to nothing but the use of their specific deeded time + RCI exchanges ? 

What's fair about that ? 

I mean, the whole Wyndham internal exchange scheme is part of the deeded Wyndham points ownership from the word go.  There's no way of erasing that if the owner's name on the deed happens to change.  

Wyndham creates the deed, records the ownership rights on the deed, & sells that deed to you.  By & by, you sell those same deeded rights to somebody else.  Eventually your resale buyer sells'm to me -- meaning that I own what Wyndham created & what you & that other owner previously owned -- no more & no less. 

Even if the Wyndham suits some day decided that your idea of "fair" would be a dandy way to Level The Field, all they could do would be to change what's in the new deeds they start selling right then.  They have no authority to go back & make any retroactive changes in the Wyndham deed that are already out there, officially recorded down at the county registrar's office, no matter how many times the deeds may have changed hands since they were new. 

There is no need for full-freight buyers to feel like 2d class citz. on TUG-BBS, & likewise there is no need for resale buyers to feel like 2d class citz. at timeshare resorts.  

Ownership is ownership, _mox nix_ how much or how little the timeshare owners pay or whom they buy the timeshares from. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 13, 2010)

jjmanthei05 said:


> The way the developers can remedy that is by exercising Right of First Refusal. That way they can set a bottom to resale prices. DVC does this very well. You can purchase resale for DVC but the resale price will be within 5% of Developer price and there is no difference in "perks" based on purchase type.
> 
> Jason



Maybe I'm a dummy, but I don't understand how ROFR props up the sales price.

Now, I do understand how ROFR will cause some buyers who want that resort to raise their offering prices high enough to clear the ROFR.  So I don't dispute that *some* sales will occur at a higher price than might otherwise have occurred.

But the flip side of that is that there must be some sellers who are out there who would love to sell but can't get that price.  (If ROFR is supporting the price above the ordinary market equilibrium price, that must be the case by law of supply and demand.)

Now how does ROFR prop up the price when a person who is eager to sell but can't attract a buyer starts dropping their asking price to whatever level is necessary to generate an offer from some buyer who is either: a) unaware of the ROFR; or b) willing to take a chance on getting a screaming great deal if it gets through ROFR?

I know that Disney is often cited as an example, but it seems to me that if every single person who wants to sell their Disney were able to sell it for 95% of developer price, then I don't see where the ROFR wold be supporting the price; rather that would suggest that the resale market *would be* 95% of developer price, and the ROFR really isn't doing anything.

+++++

Now, if a developer offered a guaranteed buyback program at some price, that would certainly set a floor.


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## siesta (Oct 13, 2010)

I genuinely hope people like sally continue to buy retail, that way I can buy TS for pennies on the dollar when they attempt to sell them.


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## learnalot (Oct 13, 2010)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Maybe I'm a dummy, but I don't understand how ROFR props up the sales price.
> 
> Now, I do understand how ROFR will cause some buyers who want that resort to raise their offering prices high enough to clear the ROFR.  So I don't dispute that *some* sales will occur at a higher price than might otherwise have occurred.
> 
> ...



ROFR doesn't prop up the price, but it could.  Developers could help maintain their pricing integrity by exercising ROFR.  If no one could purchase a timeshare for $1 because the developer would exercise ROFR on it, timeshares would stop selling for $1.  If they exercised ROFR at $1000, the floor would further raise.  If they exercised ROFR, they could resell the weeks/points again that they already sold for full freight once.  Even if they sold them deeply discounted, anything they got again would be gravy and they would protect the integrity of their pricing.  

I understand that they don't want to have to pay the MF's in the meantime, but it just seems hard to imagine that they would want their product to be devalued that far in the age of instant information and the internet.


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## timeos2 (Oct 13, 2010)

*what is Wyndham thinking*



dcdowden said:


> What these sales people and seemingly all Wyndham executives don't seem to get is that the more they devalue ownership on the resale market, the LESS likely people are to buy from them directly. Who wants to buy something that will be virtually worthless the day after you buy it and that also commits you to paying substantial fees forever.
> Doug



It is incredibly short sighted to use devaluation of resales as a basis for supposedly giving retail purchase greater value. Problem is 10 days later that (previously) wide eyed, happy buyer finds our they just got taken for more than 90% of the purchase price thanks to the actions of their "friends" at Wyndham purposely taking actions to devalue the exact product they just bought!  

Now instead of gladly learning the ins and outs of best utilizing the fabulous Wyndham system & all the great options/resorts it offers they are discovering how badly they got ripped off and, from that day on, are most likely distrustful of Wyndham. And many start looking to get out or get revenge on what they correctly see as an orchestrated plan to overcharge them for a product the seller knows can be had for pennies on the dollar they just paid. And, sadly, the buyer is right. They were effectively scammed by a major American brand name they most likely felt had a reputation to live up to. And the reputation now is one they should want to get away from.  What the "brains" of the Wyndham operation are thinking is a mystery to me. If they wanted to ruin what was a respected name they couldn't have done any more than what has been done to Wyndham in the last decade. But it has left the informed RESALE buyer as the lucky recipient of one of the great bargains in timeshare.


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## BellaWyn (Oct 13, 2010)

jjmanthei05 said:


> I should rephrase this as not informed enough to say no. Sorry poor choice of words.


Words have more impact that people realize.  Thanks Jason for rephrasing. It's very much appreciated. 



vacationhopeful said:


> Actually, we don't ask and don't care what you paid for your timeshare or IF you even own one. Many of us have brought from the developer, even after joining TUG.  There is no right answer as to what you decide is right for you to use or own. Making the best informed choice for you is what most of us here hope for.
> 
> ...Win some; lose some - usually it all equals out in dollars. But I rather measure the trades in, _Is that what I want to do?_ or _Will I have fun?_.


Beautifully stated Linda. Brava! Excited for your NOLA holiday! 


AwayWeGo said:


> There is no need for full-freight buyers to feel like 2d class citz. on TUG-BBS, & likewise there is no need for resale buyers to feel like 2d class citz. at timeshare resorts.
> 
> Ownership is ownership, _mox nix_ how much or how little the timeshare owners pay or whom they buy the timeshares from.


Thank you Alan for reiterating this.  This is an important point for me as I believe in being respectful regardless of how people arrive on our TUG doorstep and visa verse when it comes to how people are treated when they go on holiday.

*Sally!* You're going to LOVE TUG!  It's a delicious mix of opinions, personalities and paradigms!   We may not always agree but you get the benefit of all sides of the diamond!  Yeah!
--caite


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## BellaWyn (Oct 13, 2010)

> dcdowden
> Who wants to buy something that will be virtually worthless the day after you buy it and that also commits you to paying substantial fees forever.


Doesn't this happen every day in OTHER, non-TS industries (sans the fees "forever")?  Why is this unique to TS or TS Developers?  And why do buyers purchase in the first place if they believed it would be "virtually worthless."  Doesn't going on VACATION offer SOME value, regardless of how the ownership was obtained?  Not everyone purchases TS with the intent to RESELL it someday and get their "investment" out of it.



timeos2 said:


> Problem is 10 days later that (previously) wide eyed, happy buyer finds our they just got taken for more than 90% of the purchase price


 It only becomes a problem when someone TELLS them that they got "taken" -- like when they come to TUG and get told that over and over instead of learning how to get the best benefit out of what they have!  They didn't know what they didn't know!  And, BTW there are still hundreds of thousands of TS owners (not just WYN owners) that are out here happily using their ownership, still not knowing what they don't know and building happy memories by GOING ON VACATION.  Granted there are also a plethora of unhappy owners that fall into to frustrated group, no question about that. 



timeos2 said:


> Now instead of gladly learning the ins and outs of best utilizing the fabulous Wyndham system & all the great options/resorts it offers they are discovering how badly they got ripped off and, from that day on, are most likely distrustful of Wyndham. And many start looking to get out or get revenge on what they correctly see as an orchestrated plan to overcharge them for a product the seller knows can be had for pennies on the dollar they just paid. And, sadly, the buyer is right. They were effectively scammed by a major American brand name they most likely felt had a reputation to live up to. And the reputation now is one they should want to get away from.  But it has left the informed RESALE buyer as the lucky recipient of one of the great bargains in timeshare.


How is this different than every other bargain resale market in every other industry?  Do you really believe that everyone that purchases TS, and then finds out they could have purchased the same thing at a lower resale price, is wandering around grousing about it or wallowing in their misery.  Many of them figure it out, shrug it off (too late to rescind), learn how to use "the fabulous Wyndham system & all the great options/resorts" and GO ON VACATION.

Sometimes added knowledge works against you.  You have to CHOOSE not to let it make you unhappy and just GO ON VACATION!


----------



## timeos2 (Oct 13, 2010)

*Name any market where you are guaranteed a 90%+ drop at 7-10 DAYS*



BellaWyn said:


> Doesn't this happen every day in OTHER, non-TS industries (sans the fees "forever")?
> 
> How is this different than every other bargain resale market in every other industry?



Name even one market that the value of the purchase is guaranteed to be 90%+ lower 7-10 (whatever the specific rescind period of the State may be) days after the purchase can no longer be undone. 

The amount (>90%), the absolute nature of the drop and the speed (the price holds exactly as long as the right to get out - not a minute longer) makes the timeshare market, specifically the Wyndham Brand, unique in an extremely negative way. Hardly a way to build brand loyalty or happy buyers.


----------



## Rob&Carol Q (Oct 13, 2010)

*Super News!!! *

Just found this in my email...
Sarcasm ON!!! 
========
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COMPENSATION PAYMENT OF ($9.800M) NINE MILLION EIGHT HUNDRED THOUSAND UNITED STATE DOLLARS TO YOU THROUGH MONEY GRAM, YOU WILL BE RECEIVING 10.000.00USD PER DAY. 

NOW WE HAVE SEND THE FIRST PAYMENT TO YOU.SO CONTACT THE DIRECTOR MR. PAUL JOHNSON AND ASK HIM TO GIVE YOU THE MONEY-GRAM PAYMENT INFORMATION SO THAT YOU CAN BE ABLE TO PICK UP YOUR FUNDS THROUGH MONEYGRAM WITHOUT ANY PROBLEM. 

HERE IS THE CONTACT INFORMATION OF MONEYGRAM.
DIRECTOR GENERAL ... MR. PAUL JOHNSON
EMAIL (m.gram75@yahoo.in)
PHONE NUMBER +229-99099136 

THEN CONTACT HIM WITH YOUR FULL INFORMATION. 

Your name...................
Country......................
Phone no.................
Address/city...................
Age/sex......................... 

CALL +229-99099136 OR EMAIL HIM NOW SO THAT HE CAN PROVIDE THE MONEYGRAM 

INFORMATION TO YOU AS URGENT AS YOU CAN. 

THANKS 

DAVID TANKO 

=====
My first thought...naturally...was that I can now buy retail without pangs of guilt!  I can be VIP!:whoopie: 

hehehe...OK, Sarcasm Off....

Guess I gotta go to bed now because I still slave for the dollar.:hysterical:
Resale...only resale


----------



## Goofyhobbie (Oct 14, 2010)

> This I take issue with. Can we please leave intelligence out of the equation? There are a LOT of very smart people that purchased from a developer (Goof, that means you, right? ) who at one time or another didn't have the advantage of the internet or the collective knowledge we call TUG. It's annoying that not buying resale is perceived as "unintelligent" in this forum. Jason, I get this might be a semantics error on your part but the perspective seems to be an ongoing sentiment from other TUG members and smacks as inappropriate.



Catie,

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt and thank you, Linda, and others for welcoming Sally13 with open arms. It is great to have the interaction that threads like this provide. Civility is alive and well and because it is so profound here on TUG we all benefit. 

It is truly unfortunate that many Guests and "Lurkers" come here and immediately go away with the same impression that Sally13 has related. 

We are most definitely NOT a RE-Sale only Site. 

It makes absolutely no difference to TUG if you own or don't own a Vacation Ownership Interest. It also should make no difference to most of us how one acquired their Vacation Ownership Interest. What many of us do care about very passionately is helping those who come here to be helped. If that means steering them to the re-sale market or showing them how to get the maximum use of their ownership then so be it! That, along with sharing experiences is what TUG is all about! 

If it were not for the encouragement of many Developer representatives back in the day (1985); I and my family probably would have continued to pay through the nose for high end vacation accommodations when we were able to save enough for a good vacation. 

I attended quite a few presentations specifically to learn as much as I could about the concept we call timesharing and I was very satisfied over time that the right choices were made for the right reasons. 

For the youngsters just now getting involved, remember my 1985 purchase was a purchase of brand new property using 1985 dollars. Since I had a legal background, I was not comfortable until I had read every word of the offer and the contract(s) and I did not make my purchase without carefully checking out the developer (Fairfield) and the legal environment regarding consumer protection. 

I made my purchase knowing up front that what was being bought was in the best interest of my family and I have never regretted that purchase.

The memories we have created over the last 26 years are PRICELESS and the comfort associated with always having a 2-BR or larger Condo whenever we go on vacation is something that will always beat the heck out of a standard Hotel room even if such a room is at the best of the best. 

At the time, I got exactly what I paid for and any future enjoyment is just gravy! To the best of my knowledge the so-called re-sale market never came to my attention until several years later; but even then the re-sale prices were in line with what one would have expected to pay in the aftermarket.

John Chase is correct when he tells one and all that *today* the value of a retail purchase of Wyndham Points drops off a cliff as soon as the rescission period ends. But, that is the way it is in today's market. Will it ever recover? Probably not in my lifetime; but it has not always been that way. 

There, however, is a lot of reasons for the precipitous drop and we cannot lay the blame entirely on Wyndham or even on Wyndham's hustlers.

In my humble opinion, the drop in prices is in large part a direct result of the intercourse that takes place on the Internet and probably more accurately a direct result of the horrible economy that has devastated so many.

Without sites like Craigslist, TUG, and E-Bay many of those taking advantage of the bargains available would likely not know about the re-sale market and those looking to sell would not have such an easy way to flood the market.

Without the Internet to throw gasoline on the fire and the horrendous economy, which is the fire, the rock bottom prices that are the result of an out of whack supply and demand equation would be nowhere near as bad as it is today.


----------



## BellaWyn (Oct 14, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> Name even one market that the value of the purchase is guaranteed to be 90%+ lower 7-10 (whatever the specific rescind period of the State may be) days after the purchase can no longer be undone.


The "value" can be subjective and doesn't even come into play UNTIL the buyer wants to SELL!  Much like a new car, high-priced diamond, collectible or art piece the buyer is going to get VALUE out of the product by USING it.  Granted it's not the same high percentage of "devaluation" in those industries that you purport with Wyndham but, not unlike Wyndham, the buyer would not perceive a drop in "value" until they want to be rid of the product.  Until then, it's a fabulous acquisition!  Not everyone buys a new car, fancy rock, high-end collectible or art piece to RESELL. Many MANY people acquire goods only to USE.  

And, realistically there are many people who don't even consider the concept of "Caveat Emptor" when making a purchase they perceive will bring immediate gratification.  It's a knee jerk buy.  All successful sales people exploit it.  Not unique to TS.


----------



## sally13 (Oct 14, 2010)

*so....Linda*

I guess it just comes down to total amount of timeshares sold ...worldwide..competing for available prime week slots.If I were the developer and wanted to make more sales I would probably come up with a plan to entice would be buyer to buy at MY resort...this plan would give said deedholder an edge over trader..THIS is what the industry is planning...kind of like a 10 month window to get reservations (for deed holder) vs.6 month for trader...see there SHOULD be some perk...you are going to find this at the better resorts more and more...also for non prime weeks a trader has a better chance...thus rewarding the hapless chap who saw resort.. liked it..payed top $$....SOooo...the buy it on the cheap crowd..gets what they payed for..fair (in my book)  ..not to say trader will not vacation well ..she will just have to work harder at it....Ebay and such is relatively... new ..soon all will know and that is when buying cheap weeks will not be as lucrative...all resorts know who bought directly from them...ah..those darn computers good for some things ..not so good for others


----------



## sally13 (Oct 14, 2010)

*sorry..*

trader =  NON ORIGINAL DEED HOLDER in above posts


----------



## Goofyhobbie (Oct 14, 2010)

Sally13,

Although you addressed Linda, I am going to throw my two cents in at this point.



> I guess it just comes down to total amount of timeshares sold ...worldwide..competing for available prime week slots.



Yes, that is true if you believe that every deed holder can and will vacation only in prime time! In the real world it does not actually work like that.

There are literally thousands of timeshare owners who are perfectly happy to travel and enjoy what timeshare has to offer in the off season. Those folks include retirees, people who are self employed and/or who home school, and people who simply do not enjoy traveling when the masses are also traveling. 

Meanwhile, those who understand the system that they bought into will work to maximize what is available to them given their particular lifestyle and needs.  Those who fail to pay attention, lack the initiative, or simply procrastinate will find themselves on the outside looking in and whose fault is that?  Individuals that fall into that category become disillusioned with timeshare and fail to enjoy what they purchased. 



> If I were the developer and wanted to make more sales I would probably come up with a plan to entice would be buyer to buy at MY resort...this plan would give said deed holder an edge over [non original deed holder]...THIS is what the industry is planning...kind of like a 10 month window to get reservations (for [original] deed holder) vs.6 month for [non original deed holder]...see there SHOULD be some perk...you are going to find this at the better resorts more and more...



Developers have been inducing buyers to buy their product for years by enticing the prospective buyer with promises of ways to gain what we recognize as Advanced Reservation Priority (ARP). 

Fairfield and later Wyndham both have fine tuned that business model with the concept of UDI points sold on the premise that you can get ARP for up to three months at your home resort. 

What you are suggesting possibily could happen * IF *the Develolpers decided to change their business model and both the contracts and the deeds which are subsequently recorded as a result of the original pruchase.  But, fortunately, the current Wyndham contract and/or deed provides the owner of the points, regardless of how those points were obtained, the right to utilize ARP exactly the way they were intended to be used by the original purchaser.  A secondary purchaser does not get so-called VIP privileges promised by the developer; but usually those privileges (which can be taken away at the whim of the developer) are not something that the secondary buyer, in today's market, feels the need to pay top dollar for. 

In recent years Wyndham has taken the concept of ARP to an additional plateau by inducing buyers to buy into what is known as Club Wyndham Access. The industry is always going to try to improve on ways to attract buyers by providing exclusivity and/or Very Important People (VIP programs). But, as others have already pointed out it is up to the Buyer to determine whether or not the proposed features and benefits are worth the cost to the retail buyer. If, upon close scrutiny, the buyer finds that they can live without the promises that cost so much and enjoy what the deed and contract calls for then they are likely to pass or buy in the secondary market and forgo the VIP benefits which are NOT guaranteed. 



> ...also for non prime weeks a trader has a better chance...thus rewarding the hapless chap who saw resort.. liked it..payed top $$....SOooo...the buy it on the cheap crowd..gets what they payed for..fair (in my book) ..not to say [non original deed holder] will not vacation well ..she will just have to work harder at it....Ebay and such is relatively... new ..soon all will know and that is when buying cheap weeks will not be as lucrative...all resorts know who bought directly from them...ah..those darn computers good for some things ..not so good for others ...



I doubt the day will come when literally all will know what you feel is FAIR. We, who were fortunate enough to acquire our Vacation Ownership Interest at a relative bargain have been operating in a protected environment since day one and I have every reason to believe that we as owners (regardless of how we acquired our deeds or contracts) will continue to be protected in that free enterprise environment going forward. If our property rights are taken from us without due process we have recourse in the Courts and you can bet that the Uproar would be deafening.


----------



## timeos2 (Oct 14, 2010)

*Can't happen*



sally13 said:


> trader =  NON ORIGINAL DEED HOLDER in above posts



You do realize that legally Wyndham CANNOT apply rules to one owner (say resale purchaser) that doesn't ALSO apply to retail buyers as both have purchased the same use rights, pay the same fees and both will have "resales" to offer the next buyer after them. 

You cannot do what you propose.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 14, 2010)

*ALL Timeshares Are Used-Used-Used.  None Are New.*




BellaWyn said:


> How is this different than every other bargain resale market in every other industry?


Main distinction, unlike other industries (cars, houses, furniture, etc.) is that in timeshares, there is no difference -- none whatever -- between new & used. 

Putting it another way, there is no such thing as a new timeshare. 

By the time the owners show up & check in, other people will have been staying right there in _their_ deeded units.  

That's _used-used-used_ any way you shake it. 

That's why it makes no sense to pay new prices for "new" timeshares that in truth are not new.  

Buy timeshares resale.  Save thousands of dollars on exactly the same thing, or the equivalent, or something even better. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## BellaWyn (Oct 14, 2010)

AwayWeGo said:


> Main distinction, unlike other industries (cars, houses, furniture, etc.) is that in timeshares, there is no difference -- none whatever -- between new & used.


Alan, while I get the distinction you are taking it out of context from my question to John's original statement.  My responding point was that people are going to buy goods in a "bargain resale" arena that other people will STILL pay top dollar for because they have NO EXPOSURE to the bargain.  Using your criteria a diamond isn't really ever NEW either.  But, when polished up, repacked pretty it can still be resold for top dollar while that same product (again, not new) is being sold in a bargain resale market somewhere else for the INFORMED buyer to pick up for a song.  It happens.  And it's NOT unique to timeshare!  It's about* PERCEIVED VALUE*.  Nowhere in this discussion has anyone mentioned *INTRINSIC VALUE.*

*BIG DIFFERENCE!​*And still subjective......  

I'm not arguing that it DOES make sense to purchase TS from the developer in today's market.  I'm merely pointing out that people are STILL GOING TO DO IT if they have no exposure to the resale market.  Those that find themselves in this situation do not always become dissatisfied with the product.

And FYI John, the drop-off in fine jewelry is 100%-300% depending on where and how a piece is purchased.  So, does that count as at least "one market that the value of the purchase is guaranteed to be 90%?"
--
caite


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 14, 2010)

*Sally13*,
I have ARP at the Wyndham properties I own deeds for and I use that ARP. Trust me, I am on the phone calling at the very first minute of ARP to get the exact unit I want for my usage (whatever that usage may be and for whatever reason). That is why I have a 4 bedroom Presidential at Wyndham Ocean Walk for Nascar Weekend in Feb, 2011. And I also have a 3bdr/3ba there for the very same nights. You can bet your last dollar there are close to 1,000+ other Wyndham owners who would gladly have booked those 2 units - if the phone company, their atomic clocks, or pure luck had rained down on them instead of me.

Now, did I use my _385,000 UDI points brought from Wyndham Corporation _(Developer purchase points) deeded at Ocean Walk or did I use my _406,000 resale UDI points brought off eBay _deeded at Ocean Walk?  I don't know and neither does that Wyndham computer. Those deeds look identical; I pay the same MFs; I have the same right to take my chances with the reservation system at booking PRIME time at the Wyndham Daytona Beach Ocean Walk resort. 

I am NOT a trader within the Wyndham UDI Points system. I am an owner of UDI Points at Wyndham Vacation Resorts. And I have the blue bag to prove it.

I do trade (exchange) within both RCI and II, many times exchanging thru RCI back into Wyndham resorts.  And when I do that, I have no special perks as I would if I used Wyndham UDI points associated with my Wyndham membership reservations - those are called VIP perks. No free newspaper, no unit upgrade, no early checkin, no late checkout. Amazing, I still enjoy my time.

Learn to use what you own. We all pay annually for the right to do so. 

I don't care if you paid $50,000 or $50 when you purchased your timeshare ownership. The true cost of ownership is the annual maintenance fees (MFs) - ask any HOA or resort manager what happens if a large percentage (say over 10%) of their owners stop paying MFs? The resort manager answers to all owners who pay the tab (MFs) for the operation of the resort. Never have I had a resort manager, maid, front desk clerk, activities staff member ask if I brought thru Wyndham (WVO) or eBay. The only people who care how I brought are in Owner Services or Member Services (a name for the sales department of Wyndham Vacation Ownership intervals) - all of whom get a commission check as their only source of compensation or a large percentage of the paycheck.

So, Sally13 ... again, Welcome to TUG.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 14, 2010)

*You Typed A Mouthful.*




BellaWyn said:


> And still subjective.


Perceived Value = Sizzle. 

Intrinsic Value = Steak. 

OK by me whichever anybody goes with & pays for in any setting or situation. 

Likewise, I have no objection if people want to hand $10 tips to the toll booth attendants while driving through.  

It's their money to use as they wish. 

More power to them. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 14, 2010)

*One more thing .....*

Sally13,
If anyone ever tells you that your need to upgrade your TS ownership to get those Prime time reservations or they will be your special representative or consultant or personal laisson or go-to person or has access to special inventory, *RUN as fast as you can, clutching your pocketbook for the exit*. 

It has been investigated by corporate security at Ocean Walk several times when highly desirable units had their reservations assignments changed to other member numbers via backdoor methods. People were fired; both the staff and managers involved lost jobs/careers. Restitution was paid. A computer paper trail exists.


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## bnoble (Oct 14, 2010)

> I'm merely pointing out that people are STILL GOING TO DO IT if they have no exposure to the resale market.


Some are still going to do it, even if they do.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 14, 2010)

sally13 said:


> If I were the developer and wanted to make more sales I would probably come up with a plan to entice would be buyer to buy at MY resort...this plan would give said deedholder an edge over trader..





sally13 said:


> trader =  NON ORIGINAL DEED HOLDER in above posts



Can't be done, Sally. 

When the timeshare program is set up, the usage rights are assigned to deeds and stay with the deeds.  The developer can't unilaterally come in and alter those reservation rights.  If you own one of a block of deeds which grant the owners of those deeds equal rights to reserve weeks 1-13, for example, you will always have the same rights as any other owner of one of those deeds to make those reservations.  

*****
Flip the context a bit.  Let's say your primary residence is a condo.  As a condo owner you have the right to reserve and use all of the common facilities - pools, exercise room, assigned parking in the garage, etc.  

Let's say the project is still in sales.  The developer can't suddenly decide that if you sell your unit, your buyer will not be entitled to use the pool, exercise room, etc., in order to help prop up the new unit sales program.  Those rights of usage are part of the deed and all deeded owners have the same rights to enjoyment and use of the property, subject only to such issues as rules of proper conduct and behavior).

That right is attached to the deed and will pass on to any other person who owns the deed.  The developer cannot unilaterally alter that without obtaining the permission of the deed owner.


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## BellaWyn (Oct 14, 2010)

bnoble said:


> > I'm merely pointing out that people are STILL GOING TO DO IT if they have no exposure to the resale market.
> 
> 
> *Some are still going to do it, even if they do.*


Point well placed Brian.  But it's highly likely that those who have done this are neither disillusioned or  dissatisfied with the product nor do they perceive they have been ripped off.

   I love that this thread has like 5 different conversations going on!  Jason, who knew you would be opening up such a barrel of monkey's with that OP!
---
caite


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## joestein (Oct 14, 2010)

vacationhopeful said:


> And I have the blue bag to prove it.



I have a blue bag too and all my points are resale


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## sally13 (Oct 15, 2010)

*steve..linda and all*

we own fixed weeks in door county...grand bliss at mayan palace and glacier canyon red...I compare all these systems and can see each of thier strengths and drawbacks...these were all purchased on the merit of the resorts..the finest run system are the fixed weeks ..the mayans do not take away anything like glacier is proposing...but keep creating new spots of luxury in thier resorts that can not be entered unless  one upgrades (progressive) if anything.this is .bang for your buck , I guess...one thing I do know..is these people will do whatever they want..change is the nature of the industy..we are at thier mercy..sort of the way our government works and corporate america as well...just be ready to roll when the changes come


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## timeos2 (Oct 15, 2010)

sally13 said:


> ..but keep creating new spots of luxury in thier resorts that can not be entered unless  one upgrades (progressive) if anything.this is .bang for your buck , I guess...one thing I do know..is these people will do whatever they want..change is the nature of the industy..we are at thier mercy..sort of the way our government works and corporate america as well...just be ready to roll when the changes come



If the "upgrades" you refer to are additional points (to get an upgraded unit it takes more points) then those points can come from retail OR resale sources. Thats the way the Wyndham system works.  After the sales BS is history (meaning you have an account & it is populated with XX points) how you obtained those points means nothing.  What counts is how many points you control and how you decide to utilize them. Never, ever, did I request a reservation or a trade or an RCI week via Wyndham and have them say "I see you have resale points. Unfortunately we cannot make that reservation as only retail points are eligible to do that"  Anyone EVER had that happen?  Of course not. Except for the sales weasels no one cares how you got your points and they aren't somehow "marked" as distinct retail vs resale. A point is a point in the Wyndham system and that is one of the great parts of it.


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## Rent_Share (Oct 15, 2010)

sally13 said:


> .. my resort is crowded..this will swing to resorts deed holders favor ..oh I guess I am nuts?? we will see


 

not nuts, just an elitist, who cannot come to terms with bad decision and is hoping to create two classes of ownership to justify your bad purchase decision


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 15, 2010)

*Can't Blame Timeshare Companies For Pushing Back Against Resales.*




sally13 said:


> If I were the developer and wanted to make more sales I would probably come up with a plan to entice would be buyer to buy at MY resort...this plan would give said deedholder an edge over [resale owners].


That sentiment could have come straight out of any timeshare development corporation boardroom.  The problem would also make a splendid MBA project at Graduate Business School -- might already have been studied that way once or twice, I don't know. 

However that may be, I can't blame the timeshare companies for their quest to come up with _something_ along those lines, to differentiate themselves in customers' minds from shabby old 2nd hand deeds.  So far all they've been able to come up with have been various non-essential add-ons -- outstanding sizzle, but not much steak.   

That is, they keep on selling deeded ownerships the same as always, but they try adding on freebies (like VIP status) available to full-freight buyers only, or they sell add-on points-club memberships to use with the underlying timeshare deeds -- both of which can be & are shucked off & dispensed with any time the underlying deeds are resold to legitimate secondary owners on the resale market for pennies on the full-freight dollar.  

The timeshare companies hate when that happens.  (Apparently, some of the full-freight buyers feel the same.) 

I once mentioned to a SunTerra timeshare seller that it appears to me Club SunTerra (now T*.* H*.* E*.* Club) is something they came up with to push back against timeshare resales. "That's about the size of it," the timeshare seller said. (Or words to that effect.)

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Deb from NC (Oct 15, 2010)

Maybe Sally is really a Wyndham salesperson? 

Personally, it wouldn't bother me in the least if I never went anywhere but my home resort (Alexandria- which I purchased for $1 on ebay by the way,)
if they would promise I never had to be offered another "owner update" !!!

The sad thing is that Wyndham doesn't seem to realize (or maybe just doesn't care) how their salespeople are ruining their reputation and devaluing their product.  Even at the cheap prices currently available, I won't ever buy into Wyndham again because I am tired of the lies and scare tactics.  

Deb From NC


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 15, 2010)

sally13 said:


> we own fixed weeks in door county...grand bliss at mayan palace and glacier canyon red...I compare all these systems and can see each of thier strengths and drawbacks...these were all purchased on the merit of the resorts..the finest run system are the fixed weeks ..the mayans do not take away anything like glacier is proposing...but keep creating new spots of luxury in thier resorts that can not be entered unless  one upgrades (progressive) if anything.this is .bang for your buck , I guess...one thing I do know..is these people will do whatever they want..change is the nature of the industy..we are at thier mercy..sort of the way our government works and corporate america as well...just be ready to roll when the changes come



Sorry I have been off this tread for a couple days. GC is great especially during the week when there is like 4 people here. A couple things to respond to.

ROFR does set a floor for resale prices of a buyer if Wyndham exercises it unilaterally across the board. If Wyndham buys any timeshare for say anything less than $10/k that sets a floor for a resale buyer. This may do nothing for the seller as they can still accept a sale price of a $1 but the buyer wont get the property, Wyndham will to resell it as developer points for $100-$200/k. A buyer will have to pay more to clear ROFR. I see posts over on the HGVC board about what prices are and aren't clearing ROFR. That way people know what they need to pay to get a discount over developer but can't get it for a $1.  

Sally, 

If you are talking about Glacier Canyon, there aren't a lot of exchangers at this resort. There are a lot of RENTERS at this resort.This is why we are able to book this resort pretty much any weekend we are looking for at 15 days out. This is when the renters who haven't rented their units cancel them to save their points. We booked a 2 bedroom presidential on 4th of July weekend. The renters aren't getting in cheaper than your MFs, they are getting in for about twice your MF. Take a look at Craigslist what rooms are renting for.  We enjoy staying here in the off season because it is cheap points and only an hour and a half drive away. I would like to own at GC through the developer on a very small package (like 10K) to get access to the wristbands when not staying at the resort but I am happy owning at other resorts with lower MF and stay there. It allows me to own more points and still stay within my budget. 


Jason


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 15, 2010)

AwayWeGo said:


> That sentiment could have come straight out of any timeshare development corporation boardroom.  The problem would also make a splendid MBA project at Graduate Business School -- might already have been studied that way once or twice, I don't know.
> 
> However that may be, I can't blame the timeshare companies for their quest to come up with _something_ along those lines, to differentiate themselves in customers' minds from shabby old 2nd hand deeds.  So far all they've been able to come up with have been various non-essential add-ons -- outstanding sizzle, but not much steak.
> 
> ...




I think Wyndham has done this with their VIP benefits but by your definition everything they try HAS to be sizzle. For it to be steak it would need to be spelled out in the deed and if it is in the deed then it is transferable to a resale purchase still not creating extra value for the developer purchase. So the idea of VIP is to give the Developer purchasers extra benefit but not able to transfer to resale owners but to do this they can't be guaranteed so creating the distrust over the program. I think the best developer program Wyndham has created is Presidential Reserve. This has actual rooms blocked off and held just for this program. I don't think this transfers with resale so I don't know how much of it is guaranteed or falls under "trust us". I know those deeds have to be in presidential units but I don't know if it transfers.

Jason


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## sally13 (Oct 15, 2010)

*hey siesta...*

seems a little parasitic in your nature....do you think?...remind me not to invite you over for cocktails on our next trip!...oh  yea.. I know..... all those suckers who bought retail and all...I know the mantra..you know there is more to life then rubbing your two dimes to and fro!. I take pride in the fact that my$$ help these great resorts  stay in business....If I were you... I might not brag too loud ...you never can underestimate people ..you could be the one not included in the reindeer games..:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :hysterical: :hysterical:                                               life is short.....good people kinda rare...


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 15, 2010)

*Au Contraire, Mon Frère.*




sally13 said:


> I take pride in the fact that my$$ help these great resorts  stay in business.


Not at all. 

In fact, all the timeshare companies could go out of business & disappear this afternoon without harming the operation any of the timeshare resorts already in existence.  

Independent homeowner associations would replace the captive HOAs & new unit construction would stop, but that's about it. 

The 1 thing that's totally unneeded for the future of timeshares & timeshare resorts & timeshare vacationing is timeshare companies. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Rob&Carol Q (Oct 15, 2010)

Wow...what an odd response...

Guess Sally is very proud...and more power to her.  I bought Retail as well but I'm not quite so proud... 

Ebay for me on my next gaggle of points...I'll stay Wyndham since that's the system I sort of know.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 15, 2010)

jjmanthei05 said:


> ROFR does set a floor for resale prices of a buyer if Wyndham exercises it unilaterally across the board. If Wyndham buys any timeshare for say anything less than $10/k that sets a floor for a resale buyer. This may do nothing for the seller as they can still accept a sale price of a $1 but the buyer wont get the property, Wyndham will to resell it as developer points for $100-$200/k. A buyer will have to pay more to clear ROFR. I see posts over on the HGVC board about what prices are and aren't clearing ROFR. That way people know what they need to pay to get a discount over developer but can't get it for a $1.


Jason - I don't disagree one bit.

It's perfectly clear that a buyer who wants to be sure they acquire that property will pay more because of ROFR. I even addressed that above.

But I've seen numerous occasions of people start out listing units at close to purchase price, then begin dropping the price as reality sets in and the unit doesn't sell.  And they drop the price.  And drop the price. And drop the price.

Pretty soon they are below the price at which the resort is exercising ROFR, and it still doesn't sell.  And they keep dropping the price more.  Finally it sells, at a fraction of the ROFR.

I have seen that happen.  Multiple times.  And that's where I get confused about how ROFR props up the price, because in my experience it doesn't happen.

There were some sales that occurred at higher prices than would have occurred otherwise.  But there was certainly no magical floor created at which any person who wanted to sell could be assured they would get that much money.  If anything, the desperate sellers had to knock the price even lower to entice buyers to take a chance despite the ROFR.

Of course, the big beneficiary was the developer reacquiring inventory on the cheap that they could turn around and resell.  

*******

There's one more thing that ROFR does.  It allows the sales staff to talk about how ROFR props up the resale market when you sell your property *to another person*. Because at that point they simply show all of the sales that cleared ROFR.  They will probably even point to the ROFR as the basis for that.

But notice how that presentation neatly allows them to omit any mention of the resales that occurred below the ROFR level.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 15, 2010)

*Fighting Timeshare Biz Parasites.*




sally13 said:


> seems a little parasitic


Which is more parasitic ? 

On the 1 hand, a timeshare sales biz model based on razzle-dazzle & ballyhoo as a way of selling deeds that are worth roughly 1/10 of what the customers are being charged ? 

Or, on the other hand, a sales model designed more along the lines of Wal-Mart for newly deeded timeshares (& CarMax for resales) ? 

As it happens, the latter is a fantasy & the former is today's reality. 

So much for pinpointing the parasites. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## bnoble (Oct 15, 2010)

> ROFR does set a floor for resale prices of a buyer if Wyndham exercises it unilaterally across the board. If Wyndham buys any timeshare for say anything less than $10/k that sets a floor for a resale buyer.


Only if Wyndham has infinite resources---or, at least, unlimited in practice.  That's rarely true, even at the relatively modest volumes of the resale market.  What's more, ROFR doesn't establish prices; you still need to find a willing buyer to sell at a price.  If there is more supply in the market than there are willing buyers at $10, then it doesn't matter that $10 is the magic number.  The price still has to go down---at least some sellers will reduce just to unload, some buyers will buy on the hopes of sneaking one through.  Why not?  It doesn't cost much, just a little time, and it's not like you can't rent at attractive prices in the meantime.  If that happens often enough, eventually Wyndham runs short of capital to re-acquire these properties, and the ROFR floor lowers as well.  We've seen this happen with Disney, which has essentially abandoned ROFR on all but one of its resorts---and even that one has seen it's floor price drop significantly.

What's more, as much as I enjoy my timeshare ownership, it's not a necessity.  If I'm i the market to buy, but I don't think it's worth the ROFR price, and I don't think I could get under it, I'll just go somewhere else---buy something else, or rent.  And, that makes it even worse for sellers, because the pool of willing buyers gets smaller, not larger.

Ultimately, the *only* entity who gains any benefit from ROFR schemes is the rightsholder.


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## joestein (Oct 15, 2010)

...........................


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## Cheryl20772 (Oct 15, 2010)

I have seen buying a timeshare compared with buying a car.  The minute you drive it off the lot it's greatly depreciated in value.  There are people who would always buy a resale car for that reason.  New (full freight sales price) car dealers have to always compete with Used (resale price) dealers.

What are the reasons to buy a new car?  Often there are perks associated with the new full freight price purchase that the resale car doesn't come with.  My new car came with a promised car wash every time it's in the shop for service and I get a free rental if the service will take more than one day, and I get a free year of free maintenance.  There were other perks to full freight ownership like priority service over other cars in line.  

The point is, resale car buyers of the same car model can have full use of their car, but they can't have a free carwash from the dealer.  They probably won't get a free year of Sirius Radio either, but I don't recall ever hearing any of the resale car buyers crying that they didn't get the same perks with their lower priced car purchase.  

Why do some resale Timeshare buyers cry so much about the VIP advantages that full price Timeshare purchasers get?  

Looking at it from another perspective, when I go to trade-in or sell my used car, I never would consider the fact that it won't include the free carwashes or priority service from the dealer.  I would just be selling the car; so another could use it for transportation.

Agreed, in today's market the value of the timeshare perks for full freight from the developer doesn't equal the difference in resale price purchase.  Hopefully we all get wiser with age...some just get wiser sooner than others.  Getting wiser when I did probably saved us about $15K and much more in maintenance fees.


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## BellaWyn (Oct 15, 2010)

jjmanthei05 said:


> I think the best developer program Wyndham has created is Presidential Reserve. I don't think this transfers with resale so I don't know how much of it is guaranteed or falls under "trust us". I know those deeds have to be in presidential units but I don't know if it transfers.


The designated units would transfer in the sale, the PR program would not.  But it would be an expensive purchase to buy designated over standard in a PR location because you'd be getting the PR expense without the VIP benefit (unless you already had that in place).  Of course, not as expensive as if purchased from the developer.  Ugh!



sally13 said:


> .....good people kinda rare...  *<--- Have to disagree on this one.  You're kinda not helping yourself on this one girl.  Almost smacks of intent to incite but will give the benefit of the doubt because I'm one of those "not-so-rare-good-people." *





AwayWeGo said:


> ......but they try adding on freebies (like VIP status) available to full-freight buyers only   *<--- since when is VIP FREE?*
> .... resold to *legitimate* secondary owners on the resale market  *<---  really?  vs. illegitimate full freight?  Not understanding the use of the adjective here.*





joestein said:


> ...........................  *<--- exactly!   *Prudent edit Joe but I concur with the post prior to edit!:whoopie:



Discussion has now gone circular.  Are we done arguing arrogant to arrogant yet?:deadhorse:   People are going to do what they are going to do, spend how they are comfortable and make decisions based on what they perceive is best for their own situation.  

Give it a rest.  Take a vacation.    I know a few TS owners that would be GLAD to help out with that! :whoopie:


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 15, 2010)

bnoble said:


> What's more, ROFR doesn't establish prices; you still need to find a willing buyer to sell at a price.  If there is more supply in the market than there are willing buyers at $10, then it doesn't matter that $10 is the magic number.  The price still has to go down---at least some sellers will reduce just to unload, some buyers will buy on the hopes of sneaking one through.


And that is precisely what happens.

++++++

This is basic economics.  

Without ROFR, there are buyers and sellers and prices adjust to the point where the two are in balance.  Some sales will be higher and some will be lower, but there will be some median price that is the "market price".

If something happens to artificially inflate that price, the number of willing sellers increases but the number of willing buyers decreases, creating an imbalance in the market.  There are more sellers than there are buyers, meaning that now there are sellers who want out, or need out, but can't find a buyer.

+++++

What do you think those sellers are going to do, Jason?  Are they going to just sit there, watching that unit burn a hole in their finances?  Or are they going to start dropping their price until they find a buyer?  How is the ROFR propping up their selling price?

+++++

As long as the ROFR isn't too far from the market equilibrium point, it's effects won't be great.  But when the market collapses, the market collapses and ROFR doesn't stop that from happening one bit.  In fact, as pointed out, when that happens the developer simply drops the ROFR point as well, because they can't handle the volume of resales they would be acquiring if they continued to operate the program.


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## Deb from NC (Oct 15, 2010)

Steve, I couldn't agree with you more. It all comes down to basic
economics

Why on earth would I pay more for a product when the seller is trying to convince me (and everyone else) that the resale version of the product is valueless?

Perhaps Wyndham needs to check out Mercedes Benz marketing...MB has successfully (in my opinion) convinced the consumer that a used Mercedes is valuable, and you will therefore pay more "up front" to have a product that maintains long term value. Wouldn't that be a better marketing tactic?  Buy retail because it WILL hold value?

Oh I give up.  I just wish I could go to a Wyndham without having to have a fight with to get my parking pass !

Deb


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 15, 2010)

*Beat Your Own Dead Horse.*




BellaWyn said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by AwayWeGo
> ......but they try adding on freebies (like VIP status) available to full-freight buyers only <--- since when is VIP FREE?


You read that right.  VIP perks are totally free.  

Sure, the timeshare company gets big bux for the Wyndham timeshare points involved, & that's what you're paying for.  Buy enough of those retail & Wyndham throws in VIP status _el freebo_ as a reward, or incentive, for the full-freight purchase.  


BellaWyn said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by AwayWeGo
> .... resold to legitimate secondary owners on the resale market <--- really? vs. illegitimate full freight? Not understanding the use of the adjective here.


Full freight ownership is 100% legitimate, same as resale ownership. 

What's so hard to understand ? 

Sheesh. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Goofyhobbie (Oct 15, 2010)

> Siesta said: I genuinely hope people like sally continue to buy retail, that way I can buy TS for pennies on the dollar when they attempt to sell them.



A purchase of retail vacation ownership interest or a brand new car should not be considered a financial investment.  Both purchases drop significantly in value the moment the deal cannot be rescinded.  

One should not buy a new car from General Motors because doing so supports an American worker, Dealer, or commissioned car salesman. The purchase is a financial decision from which both sides receive a real or perceived benefit.  The same is true when making a purchase of timeshare. 

Both products should be bought for the enjoyment, pleasure, price, or whatever other reason; but to support the company in my opinion is not a good reason.

Personally, I would not justify a retail purchase of a timeshare by getting all warm and fuzzy over the fact that I chose to spend my hard earned dollars to support the resort, the developer, and especially not the commissioned sales person.

Siesta's comment, in my opinion, was not intended to be “parasitic in nature” as Sally13 has implied. If she justifies her retail purchase because spending her money that way made her feel proud that she has helped to keep her resort in business then so be it.  But she should not assume that another is gloating because a bargain was obtained.

While my interpretation may be wrong, Siesta's comment probably relates to the fact that developers build and provide resorts for the money they can earn through retail sales. Those retail buyers, in turn, eventually sell their stake to a secondary buyer for considerably less money whenever the original retail buyer feels the product no longer fits in their portfolio.

It really matters not why the retail buyer sells.  What matters is folks like Siesta can acquire the product for far less because it was originally bought  retail by someone else.

Without the retail buyer we would not have the fine resorts that we have today; but it is not necessary that everyone buy retail to support the industry.

What is parasitic is some of the methods that some of the developer's commissioned sales people use to make their retail sales. 

When retail sales are made the commissions that are earned and the profit to the developer more than compensate for the cost and effort put forward to build and sale the vacation ownership interest. That is why it is called “earned commission” and “profit!”  A reasonable person has a right to be treated fairly and with respect when making such a purchase; but such is not always going to happen.

Meanwhile, it is unfortunate that the retail buyer pays far more than the intrinsic value of the underlying property; but that is just the way it works out.  The inherent cost of building the resort, marketing the Units and the overhead costs of the developer are arguably part of the price paid by the retail buyer; but the commissions and profit can be seen as exorbitant from the point of view of such a buyer when that buyer later crunches the numbers. 

But, the high commissions and profit are most definitely considered exorbitant from the point of view of a re-sale buyer who realizes that the original retail buyer has already absorbed that exorbitant cost and is currently on the wrong side of the supply and demand equation. Anyone able to benefit from that equation is understandably a happy camper; but not “parasitic in nature."

Here at TUG we should have compassion for those who feel they paid too much and we should not be deemed to be gloating when we express our joy at getting a vacation ownership interest at a bargain. It is what it is!

We should do what we can to utilize what we have and help others do the same so that as much enjoyment as possible can be had from the respective purchases.


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## timeos2 (Oct 15, 2010)

*No money for resort*



Goofyhobbie said:


> Siesta's comment, in my opinion, was not intended to be “parasitic in nature” as Sally13 has implied. If she justifies her retail purchase because spending her money that way made her feel proud that she has helped to keep her resort in business then so be it.  But she should not assume that another is gloating because a bargain was obtained.


Support your local Sheriff Sales Folk?

And if she actually thinks she is "supporting the resort" more than the resale buyer she is way off base. The sales price - retail or resale - doesn't go to the Resort/Association. Not a penny!  The money the resort gets are the ongoing fees and, guess what, those are exactly the same for the retail and resale owners as we already covered above.  So the extra she is paying is going to the sales group and Wyndham but NOT the resort.  

I am starting to come around to the idea that "Sally" just might be a Wyndham sales rep but not 100% there yet. Few owners are likely to be that gung ho for supporting the incredible mark up that retail represents over resale and fewer yet harbor that taste for the sizzle after they find out the premium they paid to get, maybe, a "free" USA Today or a 2 hour early check in.  Most just get mad!


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 15, 2010)

Goofyhobbie said:


> A purchase of retail vacation ownership interest or a brand new car should not be considered a financial investment.
> ...........
> Here at TUG we should have compassion for those who feel they paid too much and we should not be deemed to be gloating when we express our joy at getting a vacation ownership interest at a bargain. It is what it is!
> 
> We should do what we can to utilize what we have and help others do the same so that as much enjoyment as possible can be had from the respective purchases.



Dave, Well said. I have never berated someone elses informed decision on buying retail. Nor do I foam at the mouth when friends buy an overpriced shiney new car 3X the size they need for the 2 of them. It is their choice and their money.

But an impulsive and one day only special price of a timeshare, I sing the RESCIND refrain. Research, learn, and then _if it still makes sense for you _, the one day only special will still be there for you to buy. It may even be discounted a little more.


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## bnoble (Oct 15, 2010)

> Why do some resale Timeshare buyers cry so much about the VIP advantages that full price Timeshare purchasers get?


I don't hear that much at all.  Mostly, resale buyers are aware that the perks are worth only a small fraction of their costs.  Hell, I can pay some local guy $10 to bring me a paper every day I ever stay in a Wyndham timeshare, and I would *still* never spend as much as the retail purchase would have cost on my ownership.  Even the most wildly optimistic valuations of the various Wyndham perks from some of the most ardent supporters of developer purchases barely break even in real terms.

Now, if someone does buy from the developer, that doesn't necessarily mean they won't enjoy their purchase, and feel they are getting decent value out of its usage.  In fact, most Wyndham owners are pretty happy to own---even the curmudgeons over at the Owners' Forum generally end up polling overwhelmingly satisfied.  Could they have spent less?  Sure.  But, that doesn't mean that they'll be unhappy with what they have.  Quite the contrary.

And, for some folks, even though the *monetary* value isn't there, the *emotional* or *perceived* value is.  For example, I have access to several airlines' airport lounges.  Despite my best efforts, I probably don't drink enough booze at them to pay for the membership cool.  But, I enjoy the ability to have a slightly higher level of service, a calmer space, even though from a dollars-and-cents perspective, it's probably not worth it.  For some, those perks are just flat out nice, they can afford it, and that's how they choose to spend their money.  That's why Baskin-Robbins has 31 flavors.


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 15, 2010)

Just to bring the thread full circle...I checked  in on Wed and didn't even get asked for an owners update. Maybe it was the fact that I said I was here 3 weeks ago I don't know but it was nice to lose the bet to my DW. I put the over/under of having to say no 7 times to an update. Way to cost me more money Wyndham...LOL :rofl: (and yes that last statement was sarcasm)

Jason


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 15, 2010)

*You Typed A Mouthful.*




bnoble said:


> Now, if someone does buy from the developer, that doesn't necessarily mean they won't enjoy their purchase, and feel they are getting decent value out of its usage.  In fact, most Wyndham owners are pretty happy to own---even the curmudgeons over at the Owners' Forum generally end up polling overwhelmingly satisfied.  Could they have spent less?  Sure.  But, that doesn't mean that they'll be unhappy with what they have.  Quite the contrary.


A few Januaries ago, in the lobby of Wyndham's Bonnet Creek Resort in Orlando FL, I met a retired Nebraska farmer who was just beaming over his recent Wyndham "equity consolidation" purchase, bringing his Wyndham FairShare Plus Points level up to 1*,*000*,*000 -- full freight all the way. 

Nobody in the group even whispered the word _resale_.  Would not have been right to rain on the guy's parade. 

He didn't ask for any advice, so nobody gave him any. 

Here on TUG-BBS, it's often different, with people truly seeking advice.  When that happens, then it's entirely appropriate to explain why _Nothing That The Timeshare Companies Sell At Full Freight Is Worth The Money_. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Culli (Oct 16, 2010)

Keep in mind what people bought resale and one point in time was bought at full price by someone.  It is not like new inventory is being bought at the resale price.  Every single resale point was paid for by someone at full price.  So why is it resale buyers shouldn't get the same perks?  The pts are just not owned by the same person anymore.  Last time I checked I pay the same MFs and it goes to Wyndham, so why should someone who bought from the developer get extra benefits?  I know this is a very simplistic view but feel it is accurate.

I don't agree with the new/used car comparisons but GM/Toyota already got retail price on that used car, it is just changing owners.


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## timeos2 (Oct 16, 2010)

*Hit the nail in the head*



Culli said:


> Keep in mind what people bought resale and one point in time was bought at full price by someone.  It is not like new inventory is being bought at the resale price.  Every single resale point was paid for by someone at full price.  So why is it resale buyers shouldn't get the same perks?  The pts are just not owned by the same person anymore.  Last time I checked I pay the same MFs and it goes to Wyndham, so why should someone who bought from the developer get extra benefits?  I know this is a very simplistic view but feel it is accurate.
> 
> I don't agree with the new/used car comparisons but GM/Toyota already got retail price on that used car, it is just changing owners.



Exactly. And even the the thought (threat?) that somehow the method used to obtain the legal ownership should result in a difference in use/annual cost/whatever again shows that the developer should NOT be in charge of ongoing management after the first few years. 

Or lets turn it around with admittedly a crazy idea. Those that purchased RESALE should pay less maintenance because, unlike those retail buyers, they aren't costing Wyndham extra money to solicit to attend sales pitches and the $75-$200+ in gift to attend. And since they are resale buyers whatever the cost of VIP perks don't apply to them - easy to see why they should be charged LESS if Wyndham is going to be fair. 

Of course that is just as ridiculous as owners who purchase retail getting a low annual fee or preference for reservations. All owners pay the same annual fees and all get the same use rights & all that comes with it.  As t should be. Those who have VIP get a few, usually minor perks, paid for by Wyndham sales not the resort(s) & I have no problem with that situation. If sales wants to pay for VIP (as well they should given a 90%+ markup on retail points) then great. As long as the resort owners aren't paying a nickle then let the VIP wizards get whatever they are qualified for & plenty of it! They paid dearly to get it and they should maximize the value every chance they get.


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## sally13 (Oct 18, 2010)

*culli....*

your recap of the argument is valid...simplistic and to the point..3 qualities I can appreciate,,although some here think I am in the timeshare biz,,,THEY ARE WRONG!...think about this as a business model..and not about what may be right or wrong..like a tool or appliance made by slave labor..(they are only made to last so long)they WILL break so you have to buy a new one..(example,,rules change to favor NEW owners)..this is how the timeshare world is evolving,,unless you buy QUALITY..your timeshare will become outdated...you all want to buy a(HOUSE)so to say..pay for yearly lawncare...but you do not want to pay for new pipes,shingles.a new kitchen,update the electic.new furniture. carpet, tile ,paint ,,ect,.you get the point now?$$$$ that a developer takes in off of new sales is not pure gravy for some fatcat...DO ANY OF YOU KNOW WHAT KIND OF MONEY IT TAKES TO KEEP A 5 star ..resort 5 star????think of some of the lesser resorts you all have been to  .....this is what your yearly fees pay for ..so....the developer needs new shingles badly..you all think he is a cheat because he wants to keep his resort in top shape..try findig a shingle job for one.. 50th of the price of an average shingle job on EBAY..shame on you all.  have any of you collegiates even thought of this??.and YES the total $$$ that a resort takes in  are pooled...A salesperson does make a commision but this is all part of the business model....


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## sally13 (Oct 18, 2010)

*sorry for the belittling...*

I do not wish to offend with my bluntness...I try to look at things as they are..not as they SHOULD be..In so many of the posts here,I would think the world is flat...we all should take what we can (happiness wise)and not get hung up on the details...hey I like a bargain as well as anyone,but I am not willing to trash the maker of the high quality (eg.shirt ,shoes ) when they wear out.I will try to find a new pair at a good price...and I will not expect the previous low sale price for the same quality new item .......things change ..costs change......my analogy of a house needing maintinence ..and a business being profitable to survive and prosper... to continue to offer a top notch product is valid. this forum reminds me of the homeowners in california..under thier tax proposition  ..thier home taxes get frozen to a point ...depending on when they bought thier home.. UNFAIR..all homeowners should be paying the same flat tax based on sq. footage...neighborhood and condition..so you have a 3 million $ home paying the same tax as a newly purchased $ 500,000. home  wrong..unfair..no wonder they are always going to the fed broke...look around you right now..the old rules do not apply in anything...and yes this sucks...I wish things  were not this way ..but they are..


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 18, 2010)

*Yeh.  We Thought Of That.  (We're Way Ahead Of You.)*




sally13 said:


> the developer needs new shingles badly..you all think he is a cheat because he wants to keep his resort in top shape..try findig a shingle job for one.. 50th of the price of an average shingle job on EBAY..shame on you all.  have any of you collegiates even thought of this?


What you're not getting (or not acknowledging) is that the developers -- i.e., the timeshare companies -- don't do the roof replacement jobs on the timeshare resorts.  Nor the furniture & bedding replacements & upgrades.  Nor the new & improved TVs & appliances.  Nor the paint, nor the pools, nor any periodic renovations & upgrades.  The timeshare companies don't do any of that stuff.  

All those things are the province of the homeowner association.  All those things are paid for by the individual walking-around owners of the units, whose regular maintenance fee payments include a reserve fund component specifically to pay for scheduled big ticket renovations.  It makes no difference whether the fee-paying owners bought their deeds for major money from the timeshare company or bought them resale for lots less.  All fee-paying owners pay the same fees.  The bottom-feeding bargain-hunting resale owners pay exactly the same fees as the major money full-freight buyers.  You could look it up. 

Basically, all the timeshare companies do is build timeshare units & sell'm to people at unrealistically inflated prices via high-pressure arm-twisting sales methods.  None of that overpriced sales money pays for any new roofs nor any renovations nor any upkeep on any timeshare resort.  All the full-freight purchase money goes to the timeshare company to cover building & selling costs & to boost the corporation's bottom line.  None of it goes for running or maintaining the resort.  

While a timeshare resort is still in its initial sales phase, the timeshare company controls the HOA & is in charge of resort management.  After that, the owners can throw out the timeshare company & take control of the resort themselves -- even though it's no secret that some of the timeshare companies hold on to control far longer than they should.   

The 1 thing that's totally unneeded for the future of timeshares & timeshare resorts & timeshare vacationing is timeshare companies.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 18, 2010)

sally13 said:


> you all want to buy a(HOUSE)so to say..pay for yearly lawncare...but you do not want to pay for new pipes,shingles.a new kitchen,update the electic.new furniture. carpet, tile ,paint ,,ect,.you get the point now?$$$$ that a developer takes in off of new sales is not pure gravy for some fatcat...DO ANY OF YOU KNOW WHAT KIND OF MONEY IT TAKES TO KEEP A 5 star ..resort 5 star????think of some of the lesser resorts you all have been to



Whoa Sally.  I suggest you take a step back, invest a bit of  to read the financial reports from a resort, and learn what the legal roles and responsibility are of the entities involved at a resort.

The developer *builds* the resort.  The developer then sells or transfers the ownerships, either to individual owners, a trust, or a vacation ownership program.  

It is then *the owners* who are responsible for all of the upkeep and maintenance.

That's the business model.  In fact, why would the *developer* ever want to pay for upkeep when those costs are *not the developer's responsibility*?  That would be a pretty silly business model, wouldn't it?

I don't know of a single profit motivated developer that spends money for anything that can in any way be fobbed off on owners.  In fact, the fights with developers is that they are leeching off of owners.

****

You might want to peruse the financial statements for your resort and see if you can find even the slightest indication that the developer is paying for maintenance and repair.  I'm dead certain that you will come up blank.


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## sally13 (Oct 18, 2010)

*thats just silly...*

to think that way...all timeshare companies are not alike...the mayan palace properties are not run like that nor are many of the smaller  resorts...yes yours might..... as well as glacier canyon(witch by the way we bought mostly for the waterpark ) there are many types and degrees of ownership...some have over 70% developer ownership..HAVE YOU THOUGHT OF THAT??I guess  all transportation is =too right?....never mind a plane is not the same as a  car as a train  ect....you need to enlarge your perspective.


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## sally13 (Oct 18, 2010)

*reasons to buy from the developer*

it seems some here are dead set against developer sales...some say there is NEVER a good reason ..I believe this is as false as false can be.....here is a question are there any reasons to buy retail? I will tell you mine later


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## Jya-Ning (Oct 18, 2010)

Once you figure out the difference between resale and retail, and you are very comfortable what you are paying for, and know that all the benefit list by developer could be gone in next day, if it is an good option for you, it is the time to buy from retail.

Usually, it only exist in fix week, where you get a prime week at a view that overlook some place will be very unlikely get changed.

There are times like you already have 13 M+ points, it may make financial sense since newer resort does has much less MF.  Most of the other time, it is just a personal feeling though.

Jya-Ning


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## bnoble (Oct 18, 2010)

Sally, with all due respect, you are coming across as someone who doesn't know the first thing about how the vast majority of timeshares actually work.  While it is true that developer-owned intervals incur maintenance costs, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the *sales* arm of the developer---except in the sense that the developer eventually has to recover those sunk costs in the sales proceeds.  But, every owner pays the same share of costs in upkeep and operations, whether they bought from the developer or not. 

What's more, it is often the case that early in a resort's lifecycle, the maintenance fees are too *low*---resulting in an under-funding of capital reserves for long-term maintenance---because (a) the developer doesn't necessarily want to pay those costs and (b) its easier to sell a timeshare when the costs are low on the day of sale.  If you are lucky, when the resort exits the active sales period, the board figures this out and ratchets up fees to a sustainable level.  If you are unlucky, you end up with something like Vistana, where owners paid more than one or two *thousand* dollars (depending on section/unit) in special assessments due to a combination of long overdue upkeep and under-funded capital reserves.


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## Rent_Share (Oct 18, 2010)

Specific Time/View that you are comfortable committing to the next 15 - 30 years for to allocate your expenditure

NOTHIN ELSE

As to supporting future development, there is no Market for resale so an end to development might actually create a blip in the resale market creating demand, With an end to the downward spiral of pricing owner controlled HOA's might be ale to pass assessments to renovate the resorts to stay competitive with current trends in decor etc . . .  [Maye a pipe dream,] buying from the developer does nothing to sustain the existing resort, just finance the next fleecing opportunity]


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## Deb from NC (Oct 18, 2010)

I would be interested to know what Sally wants people to do who have to or want to sell their Wyndham timeshares?  If you try to re-sell them at developer prices, it will never happen.  So is the poor unfortunate soul who wants to get rid of one just stuck with it for life since she doesn't want them sold for $1 on ebay?


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## sally13 (Oct 18, 2010)

*ok...*

I am not talking about the VAST majority of timeshares...just what I own ...Hey why are some posters scolded and others are not? I was scolded on attempt to incite charges...when just posting my thoughts ...there have been several slaps at sally .......I just am befuddled on this ....


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## sally13 (Oct 18, 2010)

*wait wait...wait..*

did I hear a VALID reason for buying RETAIL???yes...# 1 reason to buy retail ...to get into a fixed week at a specific unit at a certain resort...thank you posters above...we enjoy a certain summer week at a resort with a small amount of very upscale units...there are hundreds of these types of resorts...Sooo..yes there are reasons to buy retail...my job here is done..too many disgruntled  timesharers on this board for me..hey ... this  should not be about how people get ripped off and bitch about it  ....  how can people have fun when they are so mad about a sales expierience...just do not go to the updates...OH wait someone may miss out on some free fudge...thats right I forgot....


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## scrapngen (Oct 18, 2010)

sally13 said:


> did I hear a VALID reason for buying RETAIL???yes...# 1 reason to buy retail ...to get into a fixed week at a specific unit at a certain resort...thank you posters above...we enjoy a certain summer week at a resort with a small amount of very upscale units...there are hundreds of these types of resorts...Sooo..yes there are reasons to buy retail...my job here is done..too many disgruntled  timesharers on this board for me..hey ... this  should not be about how people get ripped off and bitch about it  ....  how can people have fun when they are so mad about a sales expierience...just do not go to the updates...OH wait someone may miss out on some free fudge...thats right I forgot....



You sound like you came here posting with a specific agenda. "my job here is done" Are you, perchance, a salesperson???? Looking to have one post to point to about why it is good to buy from a developer??? If I err, than I apologize for possibly insulting you. LOL! 

Actually, if you took the time to look around, you'd see that there are lots of happy timesharers on this board - they only tend to be disgruntled about the sales techniques at MANY resorts. Or disgruntled when they find they paid developer prices for something they could have gotten for pennies on the resale market. Reason to be disgruntled for sure!! :annoyed:


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## Goofyhobbie (Oct 18, 2010)

Sally13,

As we read and respond to others, disagreements are inevitable. 

Differing points of view are welcomed, and indeed the bbs would be a dull place without them. All users are expected and required, by TUG to express their disagreements civilly.  As far as this thread is concerned each poster has met those requirements so far.

Those who have responded to you have refrained from name calling unless you are alluding to the conjecture that you are an individual who works for a developer such as Wyndham. 

The rhetoric has been pointed because many feel that you either do not understand how the timeshare industry works or you do understand and are simply "stirring the pot."   

Lively discussion is what the board is all about, and as far as I can tell you have not been treated any differently from anyone else posting within the Wyndham Forum of TUG.  

You are entitled to your opinion; but as you have found out your opinion will be challenged if members of the community feel that a challenge is in order.


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 18, 2010)

Miss Sally13 is just the reason I have been swearing off owner's updates for the 2010 year. And I think I will renew this as one of my 2011 New Year's Resolutions.

As for free fudge, never have seen that at any Owner's Update anywheres - the sales staff gets it as a reward for coming to work.


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## e.bram (Oct 18, 2010)

MOOT. What developer is NOW selling fixed weeks????? It is float, points or clubs now a days.


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## DrBopp (Oct 18, 2010)

sally13 said:


> did I hear a VALID reason for buying RETAIL???yes...# 1 reason to buy retail ...to get into a fixed week at a specific unit at a certain resort...thank you posters above...we enjoy a certain summer week at a resort with a small amount of very upscale units...there are hundreds of these types of resorts...Sooo..yes there are reasons to buy retail...my job here is done..too many disgruntled  timesharers on this board for me..hey ... this  should not be about how people get ripped off and bitch about it  ....  how can people have fun when they are so mad about a sales expierience...just do not go to the updates...OH wait someone may miss out on some free fudge...thats right I forgot....



It seems to me that the only reason anyone would want to buy retail or resale is that they choose to. If you have all of the facts in front of you then it is totally your choice to make. The fact of the matter is that too often buying retail, the facts get hidden behind a lot of false promises and unreal expectations. Many of the prospective buyers are at an unfair advantage and the salespeople hold all of the cards. If you know what you are signing up for, then by all means go for it. Be a VIP member or a Gold Studded Super Platinum Whatever and enjoy every perks there is that comes with territory. Sadly, this has just not been the case in timeshare sales over the years. So, if you have the money AND the knowledge to buy retail, then by all means go for it. It just seems that the majority of users and paid members in this group prefer the other way. The majority of them have tried the retail route and the results have been overwhelming negative. Good luck to you.

Gordon


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 18, 2010)

Another reasons to buy from the developer. - People who buy from the developer at brand new resorts can stay at the resort, knowing that they have access to privileges and facilities that are not available to people who didn't pay as much as they did.

+++++

Of course that advantage generally only lasts until a resale market develops at the resort.  Accordingly, for buyers for whom this is important there will be even more reason to buy from a developer when that developer can ensure that those who buy resale don't have full access to the resort facilities.


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## WeLovetoTravel (Oct 18, 2010)

Well said Gordon!
-Deb


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## Culli (Oct 18, 2010)

Sally maybe this a sign of the limits of a bulletin board opposed to face to face communications.  I honestly don't follow your rationale and/or business model explanations.  Wyndham set up the system and the way the system is setup it allows for an internal exchange program.  So if I use my Wyndham pts as a resale owner or someone from my home resort uses their points to stay somewhere what difference does it make to Wyndham?  Whether I use the pts and my price or the original owner uses it what is Wyndham out?  If anything if it wasn't for me Wyndham might not have the MFs I pay if the other owner defaulted or didn't pay.  Wyndham already got full freight once for the pts I own.  So I should get treated differently because of this?  All your other arguments you explained earlier don't hold water it is irrelevant to the conversation.

You mention home ownership in California.  So if I go to California and buy a property at a huge discount of what it sold 6 years ago and pay my neighborhood association dues I should somehow be treated as a lesser member of that community?  Would I say no no no I don't want this market adjusted price for supply and demand I want to pay someone the top dollar so I can be treated equal 

You paid full freight at GC, so why do you as an owner (or Wyndham) care if someone who owns at a different resort and uses their pts to book at 10 months bought retail or resale?  None of their MFs goes to support GC - only your MFs go to GC.  If anything your beef should be with Wyndham to allow others to use your home resort at all - it is the system.  It is all about supply and demand.  Wyndham didn't but ROFR into their contracts to help support the resale floor.  The only thing buying at the developer prices does is support the sales staff and possible future development of a resort.  

The only thing I could see an owner caring is that they overpaid for the product.  Wyndham only cares because they are trying to sell more inventory at levels the market doesn't support.    Maybe I'm the only one not following the rationale here 

Actually I have spoken with someone at corporate (non sales) to do something with my contract.  He actually said corporate appreciates resale owners because of the MFs that are paid.  He was very pleasent and treated me like anyone who owned 600k pts not less because I didn't buy retail.  He even made a comment that it is too bad sales treats owners the way they do.  Heck I own over 600k pts - that is a lot of MFs pumped into my home resort to keep all the maintenance items etc you explain - and if their is a special assessment I get nailed on that too.  That doesn't come out of retail developer sales.


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## Jya-Ning (Oct 18, 2010)

sally13 said:


> did I hear a VALID reason for buying RETAIL???yes...# 1 reason to buy retail ...to get into a fixed week at a specific unit at a certain resort...thank you posters above...we enjoy a certain summer week at a resort with a small amount of very upscale units...there are hundreds of these types of resorts...Sooo..yes there are reasons to buy retail...my job here is done..too many disgruntled  timesharers on this board for me..hey ... this  should not be about how people get ripped off and bitch about it  ....  how can people have fun when they are so mad about a sales expierience...just do not go to the updates...OH wait someone may miss out on some free fudge...thats right I forgot....



You post in the wrong places.  Wyndham is selling points.  There is no place or time difference.

Also, most of the resorts time/view does not matter.  When stay in the so call great view, usually in 3 years it is not as great as you think.  Only very few resorts can keep up with that, but it is because nature willing.

Jya-Ning


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 18, 2010)

e.bram said:


> MOOT. What developer is NOW selling fixed weeks????? It is float, points or clubs now a days.



Absolutely correct as to what Wyndham has been selling for years --- is not fixed weeks.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 18, 2010)

*Some People Typed A Mouthful.*




sally13 said:


> some say there is NEVER a good reason


Those people are correct. 

Nothing that the timeshare companies sell at full freight is worth the money. 

Buy timeshares resale.  Save thousands of dollars on exactly the same thing, or the equivalent, or something even better. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Deb from NC (Oct 18, 2010)

sally13 said:


> did I hear a VALID reason for buying RETAIL???yes...# 1 reason to buy retail ...to get into a fixed week at a specific unit at a certain resort...thank you posters above...we enjoy a certain summer week at a resort with a small amount of very upscale units...there are hundreds of these types of resorts...Sooo..yes there are reasons to buy retail...my job here is done..too many disgruntled  timesharers on this board for me..hey ... this  should not be about how people get ripped off and bitch about it  ....  how can people have fun when they are so mad about a sales expierience...just do not go to the updates...OH wait someone may miss out on some free fudge...thats right I forgot....



Sorry to burst your bubble, but I wanted a fixed week at a specific small resort and was able to get it on the resale market as well     So I have yet to come across a reason to buy retail.

Most of us are not disgruntled owners, in fact I love the weeks I own and wouldn't sell them even if I could make a a profit.  What I do NOT love is being pressured to attend owner updates at the one Wyndham I do own.  (And no, I don't go to the updates, there is no amount of money or perks  -much less fudge!-that can persuade me to sit through one!)  I also don't like the lies that Wyndham salespeople tell.

Obviously you are happy (or pretending to be happy) that you bought retail. 
I'm happy I didn't.  So since we're both happy, I will bow out of this discussion


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## sally13 (Oct 18, 2010)

*well...*

Dave...I do stir the pot...If only to get you people  off of your  preoccupation with the (last cent).If tomorrow you find out you have days to live..(other then providing an inhieritence)..what point is it to be so pissed off at a sales presentation...or overpaying a bit....THIS I DO NOT UNDERSTAND!!as the old saying goes (you can not take it with you)and...Culli.. If you do not understand my analogy.. heres a thought....If the fed did not bail out california from time to time ...think Mad max ....life would be nice out there..would it not..??? hence people paying thier fair share on property tax...would solve most of the states shortfalls..you probably think cayman island bank accounts are great too !!


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## sally13 (Oct 18, 2010)

*Alan .....*

your reasoning is deafening...We bought A lake view unit fixed week on the only week of summer the kids would be free to join us....If that is not worth the WORLD I do not know what is..there are only 2 units at this resort with the lake  view!!! THESE WILL NEVER COME UP ON A RESALE BOARD!!!! should I repeat? ....NEVER...EVER!!!  phooey..there are all sorts of resorts selling fixed weeks...I just get frazzeled with all the closed minds..we are not wealthy but know value...for us at least...Oh and Deb...have fun blowing in the wind


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 18, 2010)

sally13 said:


> Dave...I do stir the pot...If only to get you people  off of your  preoccupation with the (last cent).If tomorrow you find out you have days to live..(other then providing an inhieritence)..what point is it to be so pissed off at a sales presentation...or overpaying a bit....THIS I DO NOT UNDERSTAND!!as the old saying goes (you can not take it with you)and...Culli.. If you do not understand my analogy.. heres a thought....If the fed did not bail out california from time to time ...think Mad max ....life would be nice out there..would it not..??? hence people paying thier fair share on property tax...would solve most of the states shortfalls..you probably think cayman island bank accounts are great too !!



I appreciate that you are in favor of buying from the developer. I have no problem with people who did this out of the fact that they were uninformed about resales or they truly wanted to do it no matter the cost. The thing I wanted to point out is the reason I chose to go resale. We originally signed on for 154,000 point package at GC because we loved the resort and the kids love the water park. We were offered the package for $22,000 which put our monthly payment close to $270 a month with my Maintenance Fees and loan payment (with 20% down). This is about the max for our budget we could afford comfortably. I looked on eBay and I have purchase 532,000 points resale for a total including closing costs of less than $1,000 over the last 2 years. My monthly Maintenance Fees are a little over $200. So when I looked at it, I did what was best for me and my family. I found it to be in our best interest to be able to offer 3 to 4 times as many points less money. If you or anyone has the disposable income to pay developer prices all the more power to you but we don't. We wanted to get the maximum benefit we could in the system while staying in our budget. 

Jason


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## Jya-Ning (Oct 18, 2010)

sally13 said:


> We bought A lake view unit fixed week on the only week of summer the kids would be free to join us....If that is not worth the WORLD I do not know what is..there are only 2 units at this resort with the lake  view!!!



Although it is not Wyndham related, but if you can back out, you may want to do that.  That is not a good place to get in.  With only 2 units that has view, the resort is either very small, or most of units will have difficulty time to justify themselves.  If it is very small, one accident or few owner walk out will kill your MF.  Not to mention it is lake front, so you are depends on how well the other people that share the lake maintain the property.

Good luck on that.

Jya-Ning


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 18, 2010)

sally13 said:


> your reasoning is deafening...We bought A lake view unit fixed week on the only week of summer the kids would be free to join us....If that is not worth the WORLD I do not know what is..there are only 2 units at this resort with the lake  view!!! THESE WILL NEVER COME UP ON A RESALE BOARD!!!! should I repeat? ....NEVER...EVER!!!  phooey..there are all sorts of resorts selling fixed weeks...I just get frazzeled with all the closed minds..we are not wealthy but know value...for us at least...Oh and Deb...have fun blowing in the wind



There may be fixed weeks at single resort timeshares that may require retail purchases but you are on the Wyndham board. There are fixed week Wyndham weeks but these are no longer developer sales. Any developer purchase from Wyndham will now be points based. Looking strictly at the numbers, it is at the very least hard to justify a retail Wyndham purchase. I don't see a reason to currently purchase Wyndham retail. 

Jason


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## e.bram (Oct 19, 2010)

Somebody(sally) name a resort being developed now with fixed weeks where some of the units have a  view worth seeing(IE oceanfront)


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## Neil (Oct 19, 2010)

I appreciate people like sally13 who buy retail, because it gives me the opportunity to purchase their units dirt cheap when they are ready to unload them. When someone says I can never get into their "exclusive" resort, it usually motivates me to find a way in. If you like staying in the same place and the same unit, that's your choice. For me, I love to travel to new places and see new things. My Tug membership has saved me thousands of dollars in avoiding costly mistakes and has been worth its weight in gold in the solid advice of seasoned travelers and tugers. I am thankful for the thousands of tugers who have graciously participated on this forum!


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## bjones9942 (Oct 19, 2010)

sally13 said:


> your reasoning is deafening...We bought A lake view unit fixed week on the only week of summer the kids would be free to join us....If that is not worth the WORLD I do not know what is..there are only 2 units at this resort with the lake  view!!! THESE WILL NEVER COME UP ON A RESALE BOARD!!!! should I repeat? ....NEVER...EVER!!!  phooey..there are all sorts of resorts selling fixed weeks...I just get frazzeled with all the closed minds..we are not wealthy but know value...for us at least...Oh and Deb...have fun blowing in the wind



You evidently don't do much shopping on eBay - EVERYTHING comes up for sale there eventually.  

I also bought my timeshare (fixed week, fixed unit - and an ocean view) resale, for a dollar.  I saved thousands and am very happy with my purchase.  Were money not a consideration for me, perhaps I'd go with developer prices just to have them wine and dine me, and give me an extra week here or there.  But money *IS* a consideration for me, so resale was my best option.

There are lots of people here that purchased (at least one timeshare) at developer prices and feel they got a good deal, so I don't know what's prompting you to be so negative.  It's rude and makes you look like a terrible person.


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## timeos2 (Oct 19, 2010)

*98%+ of the time buy resale only. Exceptions are extremely rare.*



sally13 said:


> your reasoning is deafening...We bought A lake view unit fixed week on the only week of summer the kids would be free to join us....If that is not worth the WORLD I do not know what is..there are only 2 units at this resort with the lake  view!!! THESE WILL NEVER COME UP ON A RESALE BOARD!!!! should I repeat? ....NEVER...EVER!!!  phooey..there are all sorts of resorts selling fixed weeks...I just get frazzeled with all the closed minds..we are not wealthy but know value...for us at least...Oh and Deb...have fun blowing in the wind




Oh really? Never ever? So you have control over your fellow owners on either side of your week - weeks that hold basically the same view/unit/time/value - and they have agreed to never sell their time - ever. Nonsense of course. Even I, as a staunch believer in the "resale only" mantra, am willing to admit that IF there were a new resort that I simply had to have a specific unit / time /view at that today offered a fixed week for sale then, and only then, I wold have to pay developer price to get it OR I'd have to wait an indeterminate time for such a fixed week to become available resale. Personally there are no such weeks I'd "have to have & thus be willing to pay retail for but someone else might. 

You say there are no absolutes in timeshare such as "always buy resale" yet here is a week you state will "never" be for sale resale. Not the case. And certainly not a blanket reason to break the 98%+ truism to "always buy resale for best timeshare value".  That is about as close to an absolute as you'll find in timeshare.


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## moore_stan (Oct 19, 2010)

I went to several presentations at Wyndham and almost bought a t/s. They make it sound so good and it's a "one time offer." Luckily I didn't buy. I purchased 154k at Wyndham Smoky Mountians off Ebay. It was two deeds (odd and even). I paid $97.00. With title, transfers and all fees, it was around $1200. I have booked TWO one bedroom deluxe rooms at the new Great Smokies Lodge (with indoor/outdoor water park). I booked the last two one bedrooms that they had a few weeks ago. The dates are July 3,4,5 2011. 

Wonder how much it cost to buy a t/s retail from that resort with two waterparks? I am staying on July 4th week and sadly if someone that purchased from there retail wanted to, they can't. Pretty good reason to save thousands to me. 

I love Wyndham and when I bought the Wyndham Smoky Mountain, that was the only resort in the Smoky's then. Therefore, I could not have purchased retail. This is our favorite place to go. Me and my wife both work full time and we could not benefit from VIP at this time. For us, there is NO reason to buy retail. I have stayed at numerous resorts and never had a problem. I get all the amenities the people who bought retail get. Remember I paid $97.00.

StAN


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## JimMIA (Oct 19, 2010)

Personally, I think the main reason for buying from the developer is *GULLIBILITY*.  

Some people just *want* something and they'll grasp at any straw to get it, rather than take a thoughtful, clear-headed look at their options.

I talked to a family this weekend who are the classic examples.  The father is a craftsman who runs a one-man cabinet business and the mother is a receptionist at a dental office.  They have one child, who they have in an expensive private school, but they constantly complain about the cost of the school.

They own a timeshare in Orlando, which they bought from the developer and they owe $6,000 on it.  They are a year behind in payments and the developer has started foreclosure proceedings.

Needless to say, they took a trip to Disney World and purchased DVC directly from the developer.  They now have approximately $18,000 in *additional* timeshare debt they can't pay -- but they own DVC!!!  

The DVC salesman lied through his teeth to them, but they've passed their recision deadline, so they're stuck.

I expect them to pop up any day on the DIS seeking agreement that their developer purchase was a wise one!


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## bnoble (Oct 19, 2010)

I know that some subscribe to the philosophy: "Live every day as if it were your last."  Me?  I like to play the odds.  I've been right every day so far.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 19, 2010)

*What's Worth It By Me Doesn't Have To Be What's Worth It By You -- & Vice Versa.*




sally13 said:


> We bought A lake view unit fixed week on the only week of summer the kids would be free to join us....If that is not worth the WORLD I do not know what is..there are only 2 units at this resort with the lake  view!!! THESE WILL NEVER COME UP ON A RESALE BOARD!


No way I would pay full freight for that.  I would wait for it to show up as a resale offering or just do without -- maybe go buy something better elsewhere for less. 

The way it works in the real world is you buy whatever you want for any price you can get that's worth it to you for any reason that makes sense to you.  Meanwhile, I buy whatever I want for any price I can get that's worth it to me for any reason that makes sense to me. 

By me, in the timeshare market, that means always buying resale simply because no timeshare anywhere -- lake view or dumpster view -- is worth the timeshare company's retail price.  

By you -- well, you've made it amply clear.  More power to you. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## bnoble (Oct 19, 2010)

> We bought A lake view unit fixed week on the only week of summer the kids would be free to join us....If that is not worth the WORLD I do not know what is..there are only 2 units at this resort with the lake view!!!


Wait.  There's only _one_ lake?  Who knew!


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## hefleycatz (Oct 19, 2010)

We bought from the developer, yes.  Would we do it again?, no.  But we're not bitching about it.  It was totally worth it to us to spend quality time with our family.   We've enjoyed several wonderful vacations that we would not have taken or taken the time to enjoy.   

You started this thread with a chip on your shoulder.   It also sounds like you are stlll trying to justify the costs to yourself.   

If you don't like all of the honest opinions that we share on this board then -  good-bye.


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## sally13 (Oct 19, 2010)

*ok...*

taking the opposite side of the original argument of (it is wrong to buy retail)...I have upset some applecarts...I am sorry for this,..In our life we have run into two timeshares we fell in love with..we would have to wait until hell froze over to get these units on the resale boards...do you not get it ?one summer week a year only two possible units... the only summer week that  would work  for our family..Yes I KNOW THIS IS A GLACIER CANYON THREAD! But,....the statement  I do not agree with is that It never is wise  to buy retail...I have told you all a situation where it was VERY wise..Well now I have been called rude and a terrible person...all this for just stating some facts...Why do I waste my time.............so long


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## ondeadlin (Oct 19, 2010)

This is honestly one of the oddest threads TUG's seen in a while.


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## timeos2 (Oct 19, 2010)

*One or two exceptions do not change a wise rule such as only buy resale.*



ondeadlin said:


> This is honestly one of the oddest threads TUG's seen in a while.



That is true. When someone tries to take a one in many tens of thousands of examples and say THAT single exception is "the rule" or even the norm it makes it very tough to have a logical back & forth.


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## BellaWyn (Oct 19, 2010)

WOW.  Haven't been back to these threads for 4 days.  Stunned it took so long to finally get to this point. 


BellaWyn; October 15 said:


> Discussion has now gone circular. :deadhorse:   People are going to do what they are going to do, spend how they are comfortable and make decisions based on what they *perceive* is best for their own situation.   Give it a rest.  Take a vacation.


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## Culli (Oct 19, 2010)

sally13 said:


> Dave...I do stir the pot...If only to get you people  off of your  preoccupation with the (last cent).If tomorrow you find out you have days to live..(other then providing an inhieritence)..what point is it to be so pissed off at a sales presentation...or overpaying a bit....THIS I DO NOT UNDERSTAND!!as the old saying goes (you can not take it with you)and...Culli.. If you do not understand my analogy.. heres a thought....If the fed did not bail out California from time to time ...think Mad max ....life would be nice out there..would it not..??? hence people paying their fair share on property tax...would solve most of the states shortfalls..you probably think cayman island bank accounts are great too !!



Sally we will just have to agree to disagree because what you are trying to make an analogy to is not relevant.  The taxes you are talking about equate to MFs not purchase price.  I tried to put your analogy into context of the discussion, purchase price and MFs are totally differnt "pots".  I pay the same amount of MFs that anyone else does with my contract at my home resort - I don't get a discount.  The developer already made their money once at full retail of these points, I just happened to buy them from that person.  

Sally - If you wanted or needed to sell your pts what would you do?  Give them back free of charge to the developer so they can turn around and sell them?  What if you wanted to sell them to a friend, I guess you would give them back to Wyndham for free and have them sell them to your friend at fulll price? Until that is understood on your part I'm not sure this dialog can move forward.  I'm happy that your are pleased and comfortable with your purchase, in the long wrong that is all that matters.  Again what does CA tax situation have to do with Wyndham and the Cayman Island offshore accounts? Interesting discussion and debate.


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## sally13 (Oct 19, 2010)

*dave...*

I will spell out the analogy..........The state of california is like a big timeshare company.....the residents pay property tax on an unfair basis...(proposition 15 (or something)locks in a homeowners tax rate forever at an artificially low rate as long as he owns his house) (with only tiny upticks )...hence the continued budget shortfalls ...compared to other states that do yearly or bi.yearly tax raises..based on present value..this spreads the tax burden evenly (fair)......prop 15 is = to all the resales diluting the VALUE of a timeshare purchase...Resales ..although they pay vital maintinence fees they  undecut the whole value of the system..yes it is great you all got in cheap...but if allowed to continue at the present pace of people waking up to the idea of getting something for nothing...no NEW resorts will be built..and fees will go higher and higher to become more of a profitable business.. the greater fool theary only works so long...you see like the housing crunch,too  many people got in on the cheap ..Now we have an albatross of a market..percieved value and confidence is gone..housing although overbuilt should never be having the % declines it is having  based on the double digit eroding of the value of the U.S. dollar...THE SYSTEM BREAKS BECAUSE OF A LACK OF A WORKING BUSINESS MODEL... and then...eventually the system will exact its pound of flesh from somewhere (the owners).You see like a tax cheat with a cayman island bank account hiding $$$ ...the same law applies..the system loses in the end..Jobs going to china can be viewed in the same context .If a country does not have enough manufacturing jobs to give  jobs to the % of americans that will never be able to handle higher education..the system crumbles (we are front row to that right now)once again A few well connected get rich but prosperity  for many is elusive because the system is not fair..Sooo..in conclusion I know timesharing  obtaining has never been perfect...yet now we have an artificial changing of hands of ownership going on  that should not have happened in the first place...kind of like the banks aquiring all these forclosures on the cheap NEVER MIND THE GUY WHO PAYED 20 or 25 years of mortgage payments..he now has nothing to show for this...he lost his job and fell behind...the banks caused the crisis first    by granting the mortgage for fees..now they clean up by stealing back the house...the guy would not have fell behind if his job was protected from outsourcing...YOU SEE FREE LUNCHES....are never REALLY free...the timeshare world will survive but with a more level playing field...it is all the same thing in my book..greedy babyboomers screwing up everthing for short term gain....just wait until you see what happens to the value of the U.S. dollar yea I know my spelling sucks..does this explain it better Cullie?


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## Rent_Share (Oct 19, 2010)

sally13 said:


> I will spell out the analogy..........The state of california is like a big timeshare company.....the residents pay property tax on an unfair basis...(proposition 15 (or something)locks in a homeowners tax rate forever at an artificially low rate as long as he owns his house) (with only tiny upticks )...hence the continued budget shortfalls ...compared to other states that do yearly or bi.yearly tax raises..based on present value..this spreads the tax burden evenly (fair)......prop 15 is = to all the resales diluting the VALUE of a timeshare purchase...Resales ..although they pay vital maintinence fees they undecut the whole value of the system..yes it is great you all got in cheap...but if allowed to continue at the present pace of people waking up to the idea of getting something for nothing...no NEW resorts will be built..and fees will go higher and higher to become more of a profitable business.. the greater fool theary only works so long...you see like the housing crunch,too many people got in on the cheap ..Now we have an albatross of a market..percieved value and confidence is gone..housing although overbuilt should never be having the % declines it is having based on the double digit eroding of the value of the U.S. dollar...THE SYSTEM BREAKS BECAUSE OF A LACK OF A WORKING BUSINESS MODEL... and then...eventually the system will exact its pound of flesh from somewhere (the owners).You see like a tax cheat with a cayman island bank account hiding $$$ ...the same law applies..the system loses in the end..Jobs going to china can be viewed in the same context .If a country does not have enough manufacturing jobs to give jobs to the % of americans that will never be able to handle higher education..the system crumbles (we are front row to that right now)once again A few well connected get rich but prosperity for many is elusive because the system is not fair..Sooo..in conclusion I know timesharing obtaining has never been perfect...yet now we have an artificial changing of hands of ownership going on that should not have happened in the first place...kind of like the banks aquiring all these forclosures on the cheap NEVER MIND THE GUY WHO PAYED 20 or 25 years of mortgage payments..he now has nothing to show for this...he lost his job and fell behind...the banks caused the crisis first by granting the mortgage for fees..now they clean up by stealing back the house...the guy would not have fell behind if his job was protected from outsourcing...YOU SEE FREE LUNCHES....are never REALLY free...the timeshare world will survive but with a more level playing field...it is all the same thing in my book..greedy babyboomers screwing up everthing for short term gain....just wait until you see what happens to the value of the U.S. dollar yea I know my spelling sucks..does this explain it better Cullie?


 

First it's proposition 13 and it doesn't tax you on a non cash artificial appreciation of the property until it's sold to another buyer at market price


All owners pay the same maintenance fees and assessments regardless if they are developer sales and/or resales period

Many members here made their first purchase from the developer - rather than trying to justify an uniformed decision be gracious, hang around here to find out how to get maximum value for your sunk costs and to increase those opportunities by purchasing/renting additional time at a fraction of developers costs which amount to 50 % Marketing 25 % profit/greed etc . . .

I am now adding you to my "ignore posts by list" - population 1 YOU


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## am1 (Oct 19, 2010)

It is probably best to not respond back to this thread.  It is so far off topic.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 19, 2010)

*Still A Bit Unclear On The Concept ?*




sally13 said:


> Resales ..although they pay vital maintinence fees they  undecut the whole value of the system..yes it is great you all got in cheap...but if allowed to continue at the present pace of people waking up to the idea of getting something for nothing...no NEW resorts will be built..and fees will go higher and higher to become more of a profitable business.


Apparently you're still not clear on the distinction between timeshare companies on the 1 hand & timeshare homeowner associations on the other hand. 

If the timeshare companies fold up & disappear today & no more new timeshares are ever built, that has no effect --_ Zero, Zip, Zilch, Zorch, Nil, Null, None, Nada, Not Any_ -- _no_ effect on the timeshare resorts already up & running.  You could look it up. 

Day to day resort operations are handled by the homeowner associations, not the timeshare companies.  Resort maintenance & resort renovations are paid for by the owners -- full freight or resale _mox nix_ -- & not by the timeshare companies. 

It's not that the resale buyers are getting something for nothing.  The opposite is closer to the truth -- that for major money, the timeshare companies are selling timeshare deeds that are worth little or nothing.   (Not only that, the timeshare companies are selling'm -- trying to, anyway -- to uneducated consumers via ballyhoo & razzle-dazzle.  But that's another story.) 

Timeshare homeowner associations are not profit-making or profit-seeking organizations.  They manage & operate timeshare resorts on behalf of the owners -- _all_ owners equally, regardless of how much or how little those owners paid to become owners.   

There is no connection between timeshare maintenance fees & timeshare companies' profit-loss statements.  HOAs collect fees based on what's needed to run the resort & put money in reserve for periodic renovations & upgrades.  Timeshare companies can all go broke & the homeowner associations will keep on managing & operating the timeshare resorts that are already up & going out there just the same.

The 1 thing that's totally unneeded for the future of timeshares & timeshare resorts & timeshare vacationing is timeshare companies.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Culli (Oct 19, 2010)

sally13 said:


> I will spell out the analogy..........The state of california is like a big timeshare company.....the residents pay property tax on an unfair basis...(proposition 15 (or something)locks in a homeowners tax rate forever at an artificially low rate as long as he owns his house) (with only tiny upticks )...hence the continued budget shortfalls ...compared to other states that do yearly or bi.yearly tax raises..based on present value..this spreads the tax burden evenly (fair)......prop 15 is = to all the resales diluting the VALUE of a timeshare purchase...Resales ..although they pay vital maintinence fees they  undecut the whole value of the system..yes it is great you all got in cheap...but if allowed to continue at the present pace of people waking up to the idea of getting something for nothing...no NEW resorts will be built..and fees will go higher and higher to become more of a profitable business.. the greater fool theary only works so long...you see like the housing crunch,too  many people got in on the cheap ..Now we have an albatross of a market..percieved value and confidence is gone..housing although overbuilt should never be having the % declines it is having  based on the double digit eroding of the value of the U.S. dollar...THE SYSTEM BREAKS BECAUSE OF A LACK OF A WORKING BUSINESS MODEL... and then...eventually the system will exact its pound of flesh from somewhere (the owners).You see like a tax cheat with a cayman island bank account hiding $$$ ...the same law applies..the system loses in the end..Jobs going to china can be viewed in the same context .If a country does not have enough manufacturing jobs to give  jobs to the % of americans that will never be able to handle higher education..the system crumbles (we are front row to that right now)once again A few well connected get rich but prosperity  for many is elusive because the system is not fair..Sooo..in conclusion I know timesharing  obtaining has never been perfect...yet now we have an artificial changing of hands of ownership going on  that should not have happened in the first place...kind of like the banks aquiring all these forclosures on the cheap NEVER MIND THE GUY WHO PAYED 20 or 25 years of mortgage payments..he now has nothing to show for this...he lost his job and fell behind...the banks caused the crisis first    by granting the mortgage for fees..now they clean up by stealing back the house...the guy would not have fell behind if his job was protected from outsourcing...YOU SEE FREE LUNCHES....are never REALLY free...the timeshare world will survive but with a more level playing field...it is all the same thing in my book..greedy babyboomers screwing up everthing for short term gain....just wait until you see what happens to the value of the U.S. dollar yea I know my spelling sucks..does this explain it better Cullie?



Yes it explains you have no idea how TS work and your attempt to find parrellels between your examples and TS ownership is weak at best.  But hey we are all entittled to their own opinions and again we will have to agreee to disagree.  Enjoy GC it is a great resrt as well as the Wyndham system - one thing I hope we can all agree on is VACATION is awesome so lets go enjoy it.


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## tchr54 (Oct 19, 2010)

*Experience shows*

Look at the number of posts from the posters. Most of the resale people have hundreds or even thousands of posts. This shows me they have been around a while and probably know what they are talking about.  Sorry Sally.
Ed and Kay
Clinton, Mo


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## JimMIA (Oct 19, 2010)

tchr54 said:


> Look at the number of posts from the posters. Most of the resale people have hundreds or even thousands of posts. This shows me they have been around a while and probably know what they are talking about.  Sorry Sally.
> Ed and Kay
> Clinton, Mo


The number of posts may just mean they are new -- it really has nothing to do with how much they know or don't know.  You have to evaluate the quality and intelligence (or lack thereof) of their posts to evaluate that.

What I find more telling is that the main protagonist in this thread has only about 20 posts, and every single one of them have been *on this one topic*.   Obviously they have an axe to grind -- maybe still sore that they paid too much.


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## bnoble (Oct 19, 2010)

> The number of posts may just mean they are new -- it really has nothing to do with how much they know or don't know. You have to evaluate the quality and intelligence (or lack thereof) of their posts to evaluate that.


Quoted for truth.

_And, to bump my post count. _


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## Rob&Carol Q (Oct 19, 2010)

Culli said:


> ....
> I know this is a very simplistic view but feel it is accurate.
> 
> I don't agree with the new/used car comparisons but GM/Toyota already got retail price on that used car, it is just changing owners.




Yeah, I ripped that quote out of context and yet...there it is.  A very valid viewpoint for most of us around here.


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## frank808 (Oct 19, 2010)

sally13 said:


> taking the opposite side of the original argument of (it is wrong to buy retail)...I have upset some applecarts...I am sorry for this,..In our life we have run into two timeshares we fell in love with..we would have to wait until hell froze over to get these units on the resale boards...do you not get it ?one summer week a year only two possible units... the only summer week that  would work  for our family..Yes I KNOW THIS IS A GLACIER CANYON THREAD! But,....the statement  I do not agree with is that It never is wise  to buy retail...I have told you all a situation where it was VERY wise..Well now I have been called rude and a terrible person...all this for just stating some facts...Why do I waste my time.............so long



Sally. as long as you are happy with it, I am happy for you and your family.  It's your decision to buy what you want.  To YOU and your family it was a great value so go and enjoy it.  To everyone else, on the other side of the fence just let her enjoy her wonderful week.  Isn't this what this board is about?  Bringing owners with different views to one common place.


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## weezie (Oct 19, 2010)

*buying from developer*

my experience is that if I knew then what I know now I would have made sure my arms were broken and done my research before I bought from the developer. But Im stuck and trying to make the best of it.  The only thing that is great about timeshare is the kids love it .  But thats my opinion:whoopie:


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## Deb from NC (Oct 19, 2010)

sally13 said:


> taking the opposite side of the original argument of (it is wrong to buy retail)...I have upset some applecarts...I am sorry for this,..In our life we have run into two timeshares we fell in love with..we would have to wait until hell froze over to get these units on the resale boards...do you not get it ?one summer week a year only two possible units... the only summer week that  would work  for our family..Yes I KNOW THIS IS A GLACIER CANYON THREAD! But,....the statement  I do not agree with is that It never is wise  to buy retail...I have told you all a situation where it was VERY wise..Well now I have been called rude and a terrible person...all this for just stating some facts...Why do I waste my time.............so long



Sally, 
I believe you were accused of being rude because you referred to people who buy timeshares for $1 as parasites in one of your threads. That is rather insulting to those of us that have purchased timeshares for $1.  But remember, there was a willing buyer AND a willing seller involved in that transaction
Is it WRONG to buy retail? Absolutely not!  Does it make good business sense?
No, it doesn't, in my opinion.  But we all can spend our disposable income however we want..so enjoy your purchase!


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## shaun401 (Oct 19, 2010)

This was a duplicate


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## shaun401 (Oct 19, 2010)

Sally, Sally, Sally...I love your determination! 

I am Glad you are satified with your developer purchase.  However, I hope you negotiated the price and got some extras like bonus points to go with it.

Hope this helps you..
All timeshares at some point were purchased from a developer, at different prices I may add.  So the same TS you purchased from the developer was sold to someone else for a different price.  The developer takes their costs and places huge markups on the price for various things like commission, marketing, pocket money, just because money, etc. They charge as much as they can get as long as they are making a profit and you are willing to pay that price.  Their cost could have been $5,000, however they will charge you $20,000 (Just like buying a new car).  This has nothing to do with the MF(Maintenance Fees).  The maintenance fees are paid to a different entity that is charged with with the upkeep of the TS property. This means that the Developer also pays maintenance fees until all contracts are sold. One thing to remember is that Developesr come in build, sale, make money, then they are gone, what remains is the Association that manages the upkeep (i.e. MFs)

When the original timeshare owner no longer wants to keep the timeshare, due to various reasons (can't vacation anymore or can't pay MF).  The timeshare is sold on the secondary market (i.e. resale).  It is either sold for the remaining balance that is owed to the developer or a price that is comfortable to the original owner to transfer it to another individual (sometimes plus fees).  The new owner then assumes ownership as well as the MFs associated with the ownership.  As an owner whether you are the original owner or a secondary owner, you want this business model to continue because this is how your Timeshare remains in good working order.

The only way I would *consider* (not saying I would) buying from a developer is if there was a new resort and I wanted to be one of the first individuals to own at that resort and it was not available on the resale market and I couldn't wait for it to become available and I had the disposable income to buy it (like buying electronic gadgets when they first come out).  A lot of IFs.:whoopie: 

In conclusion, no one is knocking those that buy from a Developer or at developer prices, however there are other options out there that people should be aware of.  Also, if you must buy from a Developer, negotiate, negotiate, negotiate.


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## sally13 (Oct 20, 2010)

*Deb....*

first of all...I did not mean anything nasty by saying siesta's actions were parasitic in nature.. quote..(I hope people like sally continue to buy retail..that way I can buy timeshare for pennies on the dollar when they attempt to sell them) This was an open brag by siesta..witch I have no problem with..A metaphor..If I buy for full cost..siesta consumes for free(almost)that is parasitic!I myself do not like to hang with people who brag..simple.. .........As to insulting people..If anyone has been insulted it would be ME!......Rentshare..sally is an elitist..a bad decision maker..Cullie..sally has no idea how timeshares work...9942...sally is negative..rude..and a terrible person...Bnoble...sally is someone who doesn't know the first thing about timesharing..John Chase..sally might be a sales rep..(insulting )..Ed and Kay...sally you do not know what your talking about...Rentshare..I will put you on my  ignore list population..ONE  ..YOU..and you Deb..mabee sally is really a w. sales person (insulting again) and Bnoble..Quoted for truth (cmon..I get the jab)...................Hey John Chase I never said that MY FIXED WEEK PUCHASE FROM THE DEVELOPER WAS THE RULE ...just that there were times when a devloper  purchase WAS wise.contrary to all those screaming NEVER is a developer purchase warranted THIS I DISAGEE WITH ! ...and I have stated the situation quite clearly............Jimmia ....thanks for the support but..I am NOT sore I paid too much..I feel  the $$$ we payed for that fixed week were worth thier weight in gold..(A great value otherwise unobtainable).....and in conclusion to all of this....thank you  Frank 808 you are wise and kind  ............I thought this board was a place where opposing opinions were encouraged?? seems like a gang linching to me...


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## timeos2 (Oct 20, 2010)

*Every general rule has an exception or two*



sally13 said:


> .....Hey John Chase I never said that MY FIXED WEEK PUCHASE FROM THE DEVELOPER WAS THE RULE ...just that there were times when a devloper  purchase WAS wise.contrary to all those screaming NEVER is a developer purchase warranted THIS I DISAGEE WITH ! ...and I have stated the situation quite clearly....



So IF we're going make a general rule which makes more sense? Never by retail which applies well over 98% of the time OR buy retail which makes financial sense maybe 1-2% of the time?  

I agree that there are cases where if the stars and the buyers desires align perfectly the extra cost of a retail sale might be overlooked to get a specific week / resort/ view / unit - but they are far from the norm.  So the rule, subject to possible individual case exceptions, is never buy retail.  Fair enough?


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## zazz (Oct 20, 2010)

The point of the thread eludes me.  If Sally wants to say that she bought a developer week because it works for her situation, then bully for her.  Her family has vacation needs that only can be solved via a developer purchase.  If she wants to buy my used Corolla for $45K as well, I will gladly sell it.  

But if Sally's aim to to get people here to stop counseling unsuspecting timeshare buyers from rescinding purchases then forget about it.  In my time reading this board, I see of people coming coming back and saying "Thanks for getting me out of that lousy buy. I am going to get educated before moving forward."

What I don't see is a ton of buyers saying "Gee, you TUG jerks talked me out of spending $35,000 and now I'll never get those great developer perks like free wi-fi when I stay in Orlando."

I'll take the side of helping hard working folks to save their money any day.  And if it means that a salesman has to eat dog food because the commission check didn't come in, well I recommend Kibbles and Bits.


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## RoshiGuy (Oct 20, 2010)

sally13 said:


> it seems some here are dead set against developer sales...some say there is NEVER a good reason ..I believe this is as false as false can be.....here is a question are there any reasons to buy retail? I will tell you mine later



"NEVER" is obviously too strong a word, but it is true that developer purchases don't make sense almost all the time. Of course there are exceptions - on the Starwood board many people have bought from the developer in order to "retro" a resale unit to get all purchases into SVN and get 5* Elite. If you want to be in 5* that is the most cost-effective way of getting it. Similarly, your reasons for buying from the developer make sense to me. If the resale you want is so specific that it is simply not available then settling for second best (i.e., another view, week or location) may not be desirable.

I think it was the way in which you posed this question that led to the reaction you got. I think if you had simple laid out your logic for the purchase and asked if others had felt similarly, the reaction would, perhaps, have been different.


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## sally13 (Oct 20, 2010)

*Never....*

is a strong word that most follow without questioning...eg. NEVER put ones hand in an operating blender..Never stick your foot under the lawnmower...how about...buy resale..most of the time ..but evaluate each resort on its own merit...yes the big points based resorts SHOULD be bought  resale...but..there thousands of VERY upscale smaller resorts that are not in your rci book that do not fit into this mold....thats all...I just take exception to someone like ALAN that barks NEVER! NEVER! on a constant basis ..on the flip side..thanks for pointing out...well...my point ..JOHN..ROSHIGUY..


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## RoshiGuy (Oct 20, 2010)

sally13 said:


> is a strong word that most follow without questioning...eg. NEVER put ones hand in a operating blender..Never stick your foot under the lawnmower...how about...buy resale..most of the time ..but evaluate each resort on its own merit...yes the big points based resorts SHOULD be bought  resale...but..there thousands of VERY upscale smaller resorts that are not in your rci book that do not fit into this mold....thats all...I just take exception to someone like ALAN that barks NEVER! NEVER! on a constant basis



I think we're splitting hairs here. In order to help people avoid making a mistake sometimes it is necessary to shout "NEVER" even if everyone realizes that there will be exceptions to the rule.

If I may ask the question - why did you start this thread? Was it because ... "look all you people who keep talking about buying resale; I'm smarter because I bought from the developer for the right reasons"? Even if you had not intended this, your initial post came through like that. BTW, I agree with your reasons for a developer purchase ... however, for 99% of situations it does not make sense.


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 20, 2010)

I think the reason you see never never never on this board is because this is a Wyndham board and with Wyndham I would fairly reasonably use never with a Wyndham purchase unless you want Presidential Reserve. So with other small systems Developer purchase may be right and justified but with Wyndham I would say no. 

Jason


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 20, 2010)

*Just Barking It The Way It Is.*




sally13 said:


> I just take exception to someone like ALAN that barks NEVER! NEVER! on a constant basis .


I would rather be judged by the practicality of the advice than on the quality of the barking. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## sally13 (Oct 20, 2010)

*roshiguy...*

I started this thread to prove a point..from the gc update thread...I was told (mainly by Alan..and the others that hopped on his bandwagon)that buying retail is for fools (in so many words)and there is NEVER a good reason to buy from the developer...my situation was not like that..I tried to explain in the most clear ,simple way I could.. my individual case...I was shut down and accused of being terrible and rude..and other things as well..I am not used to this treatment..If this is the the way it is here..I should leave..If you want to debate ..I expect that..but never say never..that is just shallow thinking peppered with ego..a case has merit or it does not..thanks for the help


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## RoshiGuy (Oct 20, 2010)

*Sally ...*

All I'm saying is that they way you started this thread also "seems" to be peppered with ego ... and this led to the unfortunate exchange that followed.

I believe the tone of this thread would have been quite different if something like the following had been said:

"I realize that in most situations buying resale is the right decision. Since my situation was quite unique I'd like to share that with the board ...."

Thinking peppered with ego may have happened on both sides. Just my humble opinion


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## Neil (Oct 20, 2010)

Sally13,

This has actually been a very cordial debate. No one (at least I hope no one) is upset. We have all made our points, which is what debating is all about. Based on what I have read, you are the only one threatening to leave. There are thousands of members on TUG. We are all entitled to our opinions. Some are more opinionated than others, including yourself. 

I would suggest that your spend some time on TUG and not be so judgemental. There is a lot of valuable information on this site. I hope to see you around.


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## scrapngen (Oct 20, 2010)

sally13 said:


> I started this thread to prove a point..from the gc update thread...I was told (mainly by Alan..and the others that hopped on his bandwagon)that buying retail is for fools (in so many words)and there is NEVER a good reason to buy from the developer...my situation was not like that..I tried to explain in the most clear ,simple way I could.. my individual case...I was shut down and accused of being terrible and rude..and other things as well..I am not used to this treatment..If this is the the way it is here..I should leave..If you want to debate ..I expect that..but never say never..that is just shallow thinking peppered with ego..a case has merit or it does not..thanks for the help



By starting a thread to "prove a point" and play with semantics, you have caused the various reactions. Yes, technically, you are correct that NEVER is a big word and that there are usually exceptions to any black-and-white statement. However, you started with a very argumentative tone, and thus generated this volume of responses. Posters tried to answer the question in a reasonable way - reiterating that it is generally not a good idea. Many posters started with general or decent responses as to why the generality of "NEVER buy from a developer" is used, and why people don't usually include the -very- few exceptions to the rule when giving advice. Yet you keep on pushing for them to take back their stance - and they won't. It's like a student pushing the elementary math teacher to admit there are imaginary numbers, and then wants to take up the class time in going over all the in's and out's of these imaginary numbers. (the square root of a negative number) Yes, they exist, but most of the students probably won't need the information or ever have a use for it until college, if at all.  The teacher is going to try to get the class back on topic, and stick to the basics. They will eventually get a bit irritated with the student, who can't simply be happy that the teacher validated her point and move on, but keeps pushing the point - that she knows about imaginary numbers and got the teacher to agree with her. Since you have now admitted you don't really want an answer to your question, you just wanted to prove your point - I think it's time to move on...

BTW - I purchased a developer fixed week and am perfectly happy with that decision. I have researched and kept my eyes open, and the only time I have seen it come up for sale, (once!) the asking price was actually more than I paid. (due to Marriott having a 25% "sale" last year) It is still possible that had I waited, I might eventually find a good deal, but I want to go there now - not wait for a possibility and was willing to pay full price for that. So in a way, I am somewhat in agreement with you, but just think you approached it wrong...


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## richardm (Oct 20, 2010)

There are always exceptions, but as a general rule- Always Buy Resale!


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## DrBopp (Oct 20, 2010)

sally13 said:


> I started this thread to prove a point..from the gc update thread...I was told (mainly by Alan..and the others that hopped on his bandwagon)that buying retail is for fools (in so many words)and there is NEVER a good reason to buy from the developer...my situation was not like that..I tried to explain in the most clear ,simple way I could.. my individual case...I was shut down and accused of being terrible and rude..and other things as well..I am not used to this treatment..If this is the the way it is here..I should leave..If you want to debate ..I expect that..but never say never..that is just shallow thinking peppered with ego..a case has merit or it does not..thanks for the help



Sally13,
 You proved your point, but don't turn this discussion around like you have been treated unfairly and everyone ganged up on you. If you chose  to play the Devil's Advocate on this thread, then you should have been prepared for the resounding fury against your stance, but you were not. You also fueled the fire by saying that retail owners are entitled to more than resale owners because they paid more upfront. You made the comment that the resort should differentiate between the owners and even went as far to say that this WILL happen in due course. Remember the phrase; "you get what you pay for"? I am astounded now that you take the position of a wounded ego, hurt feelings person. You bought what you wanted and are fine with it. That's great for YOU. Many of these people got sold a bill of goods, yours truly included. So maybe you were smarter than the majority of us who felt we got taken. If so, then you cannot expect kudos from us on your wise decision.  You should have expected what you got. So now the shoe is on the other foot and it is time for us to take advantage of a system that has taken advantage of us and you are saying; No, don't do it. Pay full price and preserve the system. The system doesn't need preserving, it needs revamping to survive and prosper and that is what is happening now. I personally don't feel sympathy for the Timeshare Industry and I don't feel sympathy for you. Choose you battles wisely and don't cry foul when you lose. Its good advice for anyone.


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## Jya-Ning (Oct 20, 2010)

jjmanthei05 said:


> with Wyndham I would fairly reasonably use never with a Wyndham purchase unless you want Presidential Reserve.



I am not sure if that is the situation worth to get in.  Since you can get presidential units from resale point as well.  To be classified as presidential member maybe.  But I am not sure if you will not see resale 10 years down the road.  So it is anyone's choice if 10 years worth the money.

Jya-Ning


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## Rob&Carol Q (Oct 20, 2010)

AwayWeGo said:


> I would rather be judged by the practicality of the advice than on the quality of the barking.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​




Hmm...having fled in a screaming panic from many a snarling K-9 in my formative years, a low throaty bark of a focused Doberman or Rotty contains far more potential for mayhem than the yip of an irate Chihuahua.  The quality of the bark does rather grab your undivided attention.

If you doubt me...and you shouldn't...go ahead and test that theory next time you go for a walk around your block...you'll know the difference between the two...a lot of evolutionary "Survival of the Species" stuff went into that instinctive reaction.

Yeah, I know, waaaaaaay off topic.  But I bet your all having a flashback/mental picture of kids running from dogs now... Good fun once you clear the fence!:hysterical:


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## Culli (Oct 20, 2010)

sally13 said:


> I started this thread to prove a point..from the gc update thread...I was told (mainly by Alan..and the others that hopped on his bandwagon)that buying retail is for fools (in so many words)and there is NEVER a good reason to buy from the developer...my situation was not like that..I tried to explain in the most clear ,simple way I could.. my individual case...I was shut down and accused of being terrible and rude..and other things as well..I am not used to this treatment..If this is the the way it is here..I should leave..If you want to debate ..I expect that..but never say never..that is just shallow thinking peppered with ego..a case has merit or it does not..thanks for the help



As I recall you didn't spell out your specific reason and situation for buying retail but alluding to buying resale causes issues with the resort because it will cause maintenance issues etc.  The thread revolved around the difference and usage of MFs vs buy in costs. I encourage people to read the GC update thread Sally refers too, and make your own judgment on the subject and tone of how things played out.

I have bought DVC both resale and retail from developer.  DVC has ROFR and keep their resales values at a certain level.  Some resorts and UY are very hard to come by so sometimes DVC makes a lot of sense for many people.  Here is what I call an exception to the rule.  At the first time I bought in a few years ago the economy was different and DVC resales were much higher than they are now.  But even so at times DVC is better off bought from developer - this is a large debate within DVC boards.  However, this is not a 99% buy resale deal IMO.

However, this is a Wyndham thread and my example is not relevant to the GC update thread.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 20, 2010)

*Merja-Merja-Merja.*




Culli said:


> I encourage people to read the GC update thread Sally refers too, and make your own judgment on the subject and tone of how things played out.


Both those TUG-BBS discussion topics are mainly _Sally Specials_, and they're closely related, so why not merge the 2 into a single TUG-BBS thread ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## sally13 (Oct 20, 2010)

*first...*

I do not believe I LOST...it was not a win lose thing..It was about someone or some group of posters being able to shut down someone(without proper facts) that was trying to relate a situation that did not go along with the age old mantra that resale is the ONLY way to go period....This absolute cavilear stance was (I think)found to have exceptions.. this was about how the treatment of an individual..that has a differing opinion can meet with zero respect(not all of you..just a few)..now it is true I suppose I did attack the one binding topic most of you(I said most)have and that is a hatred for the timeshare salesperson....nobody can deny this as it is in so many post.. ..I do not share this childlike tantrum..(IF I PAYED TOO MUCH THAT IS MY FAULT NOT THE SALEPERSONS FAULT...:: THIER JOB IS TO SELL AT WHATEVER PRICE THEY CAN GET...YOU ALL WENT FOR THE FREEBY..YOU HAVE TO DO A LITTLE BIT OF WORK FOR THAT)if that work is to weed through waist high lies then so be it. ...I too payed more then I should have on ..one of my properties but the other two were exceptions..many timeshare companiies do NOT have  a H.O.A. ..yet many believe all do based on common thought here....I have a thick skin and enjoy lively debate..but when cheap personel snipes are taken..(I have listed  them and the posters that posted them)I believe I am in the wrong crowd..oh and by the way ..I still do believe the resale market is on its way out in its current form....or about to become much more expensive...ITS THE NO   FREE LUNCH  thing coming full circle  just my opinion


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## Rent_Share (Oct 20, 2010)

AwayWeGo said:


> Both those TUG-BBS discussion topics are mainly _Sally Specials_, and they're closely related, so why not merge the 2 into a single TUG-BBS thread ?
> 
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


 

A much better option for Ms. Sally



> This message is hidden because *sally13* is on your ignore list.


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## bnoble (Oct 20, 2010)

Already done.


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## aliikai2 (Oct 20, 2010)

*Dearest Sally*

You had a pretty similar attitude a few years ago when you were posting" *Grand Mayan The Gold Standard"* 



> Smile  mayan palace resorts are the gold of the mexican t-s world and the reasons why!
> This thread is for people who would like an honest opinion of the mayan palace properties.THE PROPERTIES, not the sales people..witch we all know, many here find frighteningly aggressive.I have posted many threads here sharing what I like and (dislike) about these properties, compared to other resorts we have visited. Check posts if interested.I have found an unfair slant on the mayan resorts here, based on thier sales force.What I seek to correct with this thread is a fair assesment in one (capsule) of the properties, service staff and policies themselves, plus the surrounding vacation area. I do not work for the mayan palace,I just hate SPIN.If it is from our goverment or a disgruntled person of a sales presentation ,spin is spin and it makes me think that some people think that they are so much smarter then everyone else! Positives and negatives of the resorts themselves.This would be great! (hey I like run on sentences!)We love these resorts and just hate to see so many dis them, from lousy sales expieriences.
> ........sally






> Smile ellis and others
> I feel like A broken record...As I stated on another thread,the mayan chain is the newest, growing,largest most luxurious resort chain in latin america.We feel that is what we want to be a part of.Large amounts of wealth are being transformed into what I think is the best places to vacation, more money ,more new resorts,more money more ammenities.Follow the money! As far as trade goes.. WE WILL NEVER BE SHAFTED OUT OF OUR GRAND UNIT!,that we bought from the developer.Owners are always at the top of the list.I repeat..CAN ANY ONE TELL ME OF A GRAND OWNER THAT PURCHASED FROM THE DEVELOPER THAT WAS SHAFTED OUT OF THE GRAND INTO THE REGULAR MAYAN UNITS?...I did not think so.If you look into some of the bitching going on here, you will see that all mayan bookings are rated differently.You will see some are rci exchange, some flex weeks, some e bay rebuys.These are the people bitching.Read the charter that the developer provides at closing.You get what you pay for.I am not concerned about renting or ratings as we use our week each year.We found the best unit in the best resort chain and we are THRILLED with what we puchased.If anyone wants to have a guarantee they will have to pony up the cash as we did.So much for enjoying the mayan grand units on the cheap! If you get lucky and get into these units for what ever reason consider yourself fortunate.Time going forward will make future grand stays even harder to secure.As the sales people and the reputation go...I could care less. There are A lot of worse things in life . THE PROPERTY IS WHAT YOU ARE BUYING and dealing with rci for so many years purchasing the top tier of this resort was the only way to go imho.
> 
> sally


And while the GM resorts are great, the weeks are available resale for a 1/5th the retail price including the outrageous 5 times the annual fee transfer cost.

We own the GM, and several MP and even a couple of Sea Gardens, along with other resorts. We did do an upgrade to our 2+2 GM trading in a Mayan Palace and a Sea Garden , both purchased resale. 

We will also probably upgrade our El Cid resale purchases next month by adding 80K annual points at retail to reduce our annual fees by about $1500 per year. 

You are free to have your opinion, you are even free to disagree with another persons opinion.

Heck, you can even look at this thread and play the injured party, of course
it isn't going to fly, but you can post these things.

I for one am very happy that you found what you want, please give us the same courtesy that we have extended to you. 

P.S. If you don't like the answers to a question, don't respond and it will fall off the radar.

fwiw,

Greg 




sally13 said:


> I do not believe I LOST...it was not a win lose thing..It was about someone or some group of posters being able to shut down someone(without proper facts) that was trying to relate a situation that did not go along with the age old mantra that resale is the ONLY way to go period....This absolute cavilear stance was (I think)found to have exceptions.. this was about how the treatment of an individual..that has a differing opinion can meet with zero respect(not all of you..just a few)..now it is true I suppose I did attack the one binding topic most of you(I said most)have and that is a hatred for the timeshare salesperson....nobody can deny this as it is in so many post.. ..I do not share this childlike tantrum..(IF I PAYED TOO MUCH THAT IS MY FAULT NOT THE SALEPERSONS FAULT...:: THIER JOB IS TO SELL AT WHATEVER PRICE THEY CAN GET...YOU ALL WENT FOR THE FREEBY..YOU HAVE TO DO A LITTLE BIT OF WORK FOR THAT)if that work is to weed through waist high lies then so be it. ...I too payed more then I should have on ..one of my properties but the other two were exceptions..many timeshare companiies do NOT have  a H.O.A. ..yet many believe all do based on common thought here....I have a thick skin and enjoy lively debate..but when cheap personel snipes are taken..(I have listed  them and the posters that posted them)I believe I am in the wrong crowd..oh and by the way ..I still do believe the resale market is on its way out in its current form....or about to become much more expensive...ITS THE NO   FREE LUNCH  thing coming full circle  just my opinion


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## JimMIA (Oct 20, 2010)

bnoble said:


> Already done.



Which one -- threads merged...or ignore list?  Inquiring minds want to know!


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## bnoble (Oct 20, 2010)

Let's just say my ignore list is short, but every member on it is deserving.


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## JimMIA (Oct 20, 2010)

bnoble said:


> Let's just say my ignore list is short, but every member on it is deserving.


That's what I suspected.  With your love of academic discourse, I know you're open to a wide variety of views as long as they are thoughtful and expressed in a civil manner.

Me too.


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## melschey (Oct 20, 2010)

sally13 said:


> I do not believe I LOST...it was not a win lose thing..It was about someone or some group of posters being able to shut down someone(without proper facts) that was trying to relate a situation that did not go along with the age old mantra that resale is the ONLY way to go period....This absolute cavilear stance was (I think)found to have exceptions.. this was about how the treatment of an individual..that has a differing opinion can meet with zero respect(not all of you..just a few)..now it is true I suppose I did attack the one binding topic most of you(I said most)have and that is a hatred for the timeshare salesperson....nobody can deny this as it is in so many post.. ..I do not share this childlike tantrum..(IF I PAYED TOO MUCH THAT IS MY FAULT NOT THE SALEPERSONS FAULT...:: THIER JOB IS TO SELL AT WHATEVER PRICE THEY CAN GET...YOU ALL WENT FOR THE FREEBY..YOU HAVE TO DO A LITTLE BIT OF WORK FOR THAT)if that work is to weed through waist high lies then so be it. ...I too payed more then I should have on ..one of my properties but the other two were exceptions..many timeshare companiies do NOT have  a H.O.A. ..yet many believe all do based on common thought here....I have a thick skin and enjoy lively debate..but when cheap personel snipes are taken..(I have listed  them and the posters that posted them)I believe I am in the wrong crowd..oh and by the way ..I still do believe the resale market is on its way out in its current form....or about to become much more expensive...ITS THE NO   FREE LUNCH  thing coming full circle  just my opinion



I Have been following this thread and I am sorry to say this Sally but you really sound like a TimeShare salesman to me. I follow that there are reasons to buy a fixed week from the developer however when it comes to buying Wyndham or WM points (this is a Wyndham thread remember) I think NEVER buy from the developer is is the correct answer and you have given me no valid reasons as to why I should buy Wyndham or WM points from the developer IMHO.


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 20, 2010)

Jya-Ning said:


> I am not sure if that is the situation worth to get in.  Since you can get presidential units from resale point as well.  To be classified as presidential member maybe.  But I am not sure if you will not see resale 10 years down the road.  So it is anyone's choice if 10 years worth the money.
> 
> Jya-Ning



I know you can get Presidential units with resale points but if you want a chance at the reserve units which in some resorts (San Fransisco is one I know of) the layout and size of the Presidential reserve units is different\larger than the regular presidential units. Also the PR units aren't released until 30 days before checkin if there are any available. This is the only program that I know of in the Wyndham system where there are actual rooms you "can't get" (for the most part) with resale points. I'm not saying the cost is worth it to me (it's not) but that is something that is a deeded benefit. 

Jason


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## sally13 (Oct 20, 2010)

*at some point in the very near future...*

righteous ,overindebted ,people are going to find out that thier currency (the dollar) is not in a good position on the world stage..This will crimp everything...service will be down ...foreigners more welcomed (with  THIER currency)and timeshare cost will skyrocket..This will kill the resale market..When the week hands have been flushed....a new pricing for everything will be in ...Think MAJOR INFLATION for dollar holders..ALIIKAI2(sorry)I still stand by those post as only the Best and well run resorts will survive....I am sure YOU will prosper as a need for a middleman with a markup ..like yourself..will be in demand.. your travel business will zoom!.We are in the middle of a depression..of course things are dirt cheap now..blood is running in the streets....Just wait for the  super  coming inflation as the  dollars  start flying home....I do not enjoy playing the wounded party..I just wish people were a little more  thoughtfull   before they start brandishing daggers...I think this thread has touched  many topics all of them not wyndham central...let me know if you want me to go away..Have I not added anything usefull here??


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 20, 2010)

Sally,

Let's tone down the rhetoric a little here Sally. This isn't a political election. No one has been called a witch or caught hiring illegal immigrants to clean their units. Timeshares aren't a world economy with it's own currency. If you want to think about it in world stage terms, after the developers sell all the units TIMESHARES ARE COMMUNIST!!! Everyone throws equally in the pot to maintain the resort for all owners. 

You are correct that somehow property law may change in the future allowing for retail owners to be "1st class citizens" and resale owners be the lowly 2nd class that sales seems to think we are now. Could this happen? Sure I guess it's possible but highly unlikely. 

The way the system is today and in the foreseeable future Wyndham purchases are more cost effective resale. There are a lot of people on here who originally bought from Wyndham and are happy with their purchase. I haven't seen a lot of those same people who would say if they ever added Wyndham points they would do it from Wyndham directly (you being one of the few exceptions of course). 

As for Wyndham itself? They are alive and well. They currently convert 15% or so of all tours into developer sales and make an average for $2,200 in sales per tour (of which they had 160,000 last quarter). They have also come up with an ingenious model (and I mean that sincerely) of not having to pay for the original construction and still make 60% of the sales. If this works well for both Towers on the Grove and Reunion, what distressed condo developer wouldn't sign up for this? ...

_I can't sell these for $150,000 but you are going to come in and sell each unit for 1.2 million and I get 40% of that? Hmmm, do I struggle to make $150,000 or sit back and do nothing and gross $400,000+ per unit? What to do? What to do? _  

As long as Wyndham has new properties to sell and people are still willing to buy it at those prices with the current structure, what incentive do they have to change? Resale owners aren't parasites, we play by the same rules as you. We pay what we think is a fair price for the product and if the seller agrees then there is a sale. Remember for people to buy them for $1, there has to be someone out there willing to sell them for that price. 

Sorry for going off on a rant but I read this thread and just want to bang my head against a wall.  

Jason


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## sally13 (Oct 21, 2010)

*Jason....*

mabee parasitiic was too strong of word..(sorry siesta)I have that problem with bluntness ..you know..the reason for my mention of the future value of the dollar was to point out the fragile business position most timeshare companies will find themselves in the coming years...the resale market has now gone mainstream..It is not this wellkept secret anymore..(ALL TIMESHARE COMPANIES DO NOT HAVE HOA's)Many new programs will make it less lucrative to buy resale...thats all I am saying..costs will rise substantially on the backend of the timeshare business( eg.the yearly fees)If those who invest in the running and devlopement can not make a killing on sales in the begining of the projects..they will seek to become profitable on the maintaining..thus drive usage costs overall up for everyone.. (HOA or not)as per industry standard.With double digit inflation this will not be hard to pass off.yet the real reason will be that thier business model has been eroded by too many people seeking to gain entrance through resale..oh sure ...there will still be the ocasional lemming ...I do not consider myself smarter because I bought fixed weeks..I  too was taken on points..I just know life is short ..and to be overly attached to a situation where I dropped the ball and was allowed to be decieved...shame on me...I certainly will not lead the parade of death of the salesperson..the way I see it they have families too and are doing thier jobs ..heck without these guys the entire system would not work..the resorts would never get built...in a way the sales staff Is the creater of the whole industy..I AM NOT IN SALES!!! I just see things very matter of fact. ..Ok..(to play wounded again )I can see I am not really wanted here as the ignore comments suggest..its been fun So long..heres your threads back ..minus sally...I can take a hint


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 21, 2010)

*Going Out On A Limb.*




sally13 said:


> righteous ,overindebted ,people are going to find out that thier currency (the dollar) is not in a good position on the world stage.


I can't escape the suspicion that the overindebted people are more apt to be those who pay full freight for timeshares -- you know, max out the credit card, buy on the never-never plan, shun bargain shopping, go 1st class all the way, plenty more where that came from. 

By contrast, the debt-free people are likelier to buy their timeshares resale for pennies on the full-freight dollar -- you know, thrifty souls who pay cash, carry zero credit card balances, drive (paid for) used cars, seek out bargains, pay off the mortgage, shop Wal-Mart, etc.  

Just saying. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## sally13 (Oct 21, 2010)

*alan..*

you get the last word(could'nt resist)


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 21, 2010)

*Au Contraire, Mon Frère.*




sally13 said:


> ALL TIMESHARE COMPANIES DO NOT HAVE HOA's


It's not the timeshare _companies_ that have HOAs, it's the timeshare _resorts_ that have HOAs -- all of'm (all in the USA, that is, where state condominium laws apply to timeshare condominium developments).  

Maybe you mean not all timeshare resorts have _independent_ HOAs, because that is a fact. 

Timeshare resort HOA's are captive to the timeshare companies initially & in many cases far too long.  When the tipping point is reached (i.e., when most of the units have been sold to individual owners), then those owners can vote in an independent, owner-controlled HOA-BOD & throw out the captive, company-controlled HOA-BOD.  

When the company-controlled HOA-BOD gets booted out, the owner-controlled HOA-BOD can also throw out the company-controlled resort management entity -- maybe not right away, if (for example) the timeshare conmpany's management arm has a contract with several more years to run & with contract provisions that specify the procedures for terminating the contract.  

In any case, eventually & with varying degrees of procedural folderol, the independent, owner-controlled HOA-BOD can shuck off the timeshare company's resort management entity & sign on with an experienced, independent resort management company on a fixed-fee basis (i.e., not cost-plus).  

Then, out from under timeshare company control & free of timeshare company management, the independent HOA-BOD can get a handle on those escalating maintenance fees, making sure every dollar collected provides value to the regular, walking-around timeshare owners & operating the resort solely with a view to serving the owners & without any concern whatever for the timeshare company's bottom line. 

Is this a great country or what ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## rapmarks (Oct 21, 2010)

Does any one remember the Conchman's motto about arguing?  it certainly applies here.  I miss that guy.


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## HtownRose (Oct 21, 2010)

_Originally Posted by sally13  
righteous ,overindebted ,people are going to find out that thier currency (the dollar) is not in a good position on the world stage. _

I thought inflation was good for debtors because the debts can be paid off with $s that are now worth less...?  

I've heard that floated as a reason for the U.S. to encourage inflation, because we owe so much $ to China, & that China has expressed concern to our government about that very possibilty.


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## paxsarah (Oct 21, 2010)

sally13 said:


> *yet the real reason will be that thier business model has been eroded by too many people seeking to gain entrance through resale.*



This seems to contradict itself. If too many people are trying to buy resale, that would mean that demand is high, and prices would be high, too. Yet they're not - they're low, suggesting that that there is not enough demand in the resale market.

On the other hand, if we were to agree that you're right, that we shouldn't be trying so hard to buy resale, and we (altruistically?) refrain from clicking the "bid now" button on eBay - some percentage of those sellers will be shifting the burden to the existing TS owners in terms of the increasing likelihood of unpaid MFs. Thus increasing the MFs, thus depressing the resale market even more.


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## Deb from NC (Oct 21, 2010)

rapmarks said:


> Does any one remember the Conchman's motto about arguing?  it certainly applies here.  I miss that guy.



What was it?  I'm curious  !!


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## Goofyhobbie (Oct 21, 2010)

Deb,

Not absolutely sure exactly what rapmarks meant when he said:



> Does any one remember the Conchman's motto about arguing? it certainly applies here. I miss that guy.



But, The Conch Man is likely looking down from his perch upon a cloud and thinking Ah! He is talking about my signature line: 

*~ Do What I Say, Not What I Do! ~ *

The Conch Man was a TUGGER to the end and no doubt he appreciates those who remember him and miss him.


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## Rent_Share (Oct 21, 2010)

These merged threads remind me of a sig line from here or another BBS



> Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig


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## Goofyhobbie (Oct 21, 2010)

Deb,

Although The Conch Man's last signature line was ~ Do What I Say, Not What I Do! ~  as provided above, I have been advised that at one time he had the following signature line:



> ~Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!~



The Conch Man apparently had several signature lines over time.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 21, 2010)

All resales were first purchased from the developer by some couple who eventualy regrets the purchase and realizes they paid far too much.  So if that couple wants to sell, Wyndham has devalued its own product so much with restrictions to owners, the value is about zero for that couple to sell.  UNBELIEVABLE.  

Why would a company (timeshare developer in this case) CHOOSE to devalue it's own product in such a way?  Wyndham developer/ corporate (whomever they are) are cutting off their noses to spite their faces.  It's ridiculous, comical, and downright stupid. 

Specifically for Sally: Someone helped the timeshare salesperson when they paid retail for the product, so why do you think the resale buyer deserves to be treated so poorly?  

Devaluing the product is not in Wyndham's best interest, but they do it all by themselves.


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## am1 (Oct 21, 2010)

Wyndham can devalue their product because most people buying have no idea about the resale market.  If the buyer does not know it will lose a lot of value then who cares if they will lose %50 or %99 of the purchase price.  

Not allowing VIP status to transfer on resale devalues the timeshare but only when one goes to sell.  It increases retail sales and is better for those who plan to keep their timeshare for a long time.  

If VIP did transfer then everyone would be VIP and the benefits would be worthless. Even more so then most people here already believe them to be.  

Timeshare developers have and will continue to increase the methods where retail purchases are more attractive or even just appear more attractive.  Every time someone takes a tour and mentions resale it just means the developer and sales people have to come up with ways (possibly lies) to still make that sale in the future.  Right or wrong thats someones job and their only goal is to make sales.

Wyndham must be doing something right as their stock has been doing quite well even if they cut their nose to spite their face.


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## Deb from NC (Oct 22, 2010)

Goofyhobbie said:


> Deb,
> 
> Although The Conch Man's last signature line was ~ Do What I Say, Not What I Do! ~  as provided above, I have been advised that at one time he had the following signature line:
> 
> ...



Ah, he was a wise man  
Deb


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## sally13 (Oct 22, 2010)

*dave..rentshare..bnoble..*

please..If you do not like me..why stay on the thread??sheesh! sometimes  I think I am going back and forth with my kids (when they were little)I might have to start an ignore list of my own!!  but  on to Rick and Cindy..Let me state I have nothing against resale buyers...I just view the whole resale opportunity as a fleeting thing..Yes it will always exist..just not as lucrative as it has been..people will eventually be asking a higher premium for thier (real) thing ..(thier timeshare) as the dollar devalues ..Think of it this way..when a timeshare defaults...the corporation  (think mayan palace..Alan Cole)(no HOA) gets to resell it for big bucks..(if nobody picks it up cheap..that is)the existing owners (for a while) get a much less crowded resort..less competition for prime weeks and generally a much nicer timeshare expieriance...I say..LET THE DARN THING DEFAULT!!! now it is true maintinence fees will not be payed but the top end benefit is better for the resort and existing  members..one or 2 thousand $$ compared to a new $25000. or even 35000... new jobs ..good for the economy as well..also you can draw  a comparison with housing..A home owner who pays her mortgage for 10 years...then forcloses..Although it sucks for her..She gives back a house that can be resold (given a normal market) creating new job s ect.money has been created out of thin air..


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 22, 2010)

*Good Question.*




sally13 said:


> If you do not like me..why stay on the thread?


Not seeing eye to eye is not always the same as not liking the people you're not seeing eye to eye with, & it would be a shame to equate disagreement with your timeshare ideas as any kind of personal dislike. 

Shux, some of your timeshare ideas are the most unheard of thing I've ever heard of -- but, personally, I still like you fine & I hope you will stick around & keep on participating in the TUG-BBS dialogue.  

If TUG-BBS people find some of your timeshare ideas uncongenial, that does not necessarily mean that they find _you_ uncongenial.  Mostly, we all get along fine on TUG-BBS.   

The few times I can remember when people got steamed & started taking (typed) personal shots at each other, instead of limiting their slings & arrows to the other people's timeshare ideas, the Grand Pro quickly stepped in & put a stop to it. 

On rare occasions, the Grand Pro has suspended people from TUG-BBS for various rulebreaking episodes, mostly having to do with interpersonal typing conduct.  (I have tried to mend my ways after being scolded myself once or twice -- but that's all in the past.  And anyway, nobody's perfect.) 

So, try to put on a thick skin when you're reading & typing here at TUG-BBS.  Be willing to learn as well as to teach.  Realize that you are among friends.  And above all, have fun. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## sally13 (Oct 22, 2010)

*alan..cmon..*

look back at some of the post of people reacting to my opinions..can you honestly say these people (they know who they are) are going to meet me down at the pool bar for drinks and lively conversation??Hard to shut me away on an ignore list when I am on a stool next to you...but to get back to the coming inflation effecting the resale market and such..right now being highly indebted IS GOOD..(if you can keep your balls in the air that is)problem is most can not ..hence the bargains that abound..will it be like this forever...hell no...In argentina the cash became next to worthless..until replaced by a new currency..I believe it was 3 old for one new..after the blood in the streets period (economics wise)The country retuned on a new footing..THE ARGENTINE EXPIERIENCE WAS A TEMPLATE FOR WHAT IS COMING TO AMERICA...prepare...these things do not happen by accident ..they are planned years in advance.. Kind of scary...but like I said .things are always changing..you couple this with the lack of moral resolve and things do not look so good..Timesharing will survive..America will survive..It will just be a little harder with less opportunities  thanks world trade agreement!!...fine  mess you worldly babyboomers have made ...The America that we all knew and loved..is not the same..nor will it ever be again..The rich get richer and the poor get poorer..coming to a neighborhood near you...if it is not already there....


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 22, 2010)

Sally,

If you are right then all the better. If the resale market rebounds then I would be more than happy since my purchases would make money. I paid a total of $341 total for my 4 contracts. So lets hope your right.

Jason


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## scrapngen (Oct 22, 2010)

Sally, you confuse me with your conspiracy theories. (And I LOVE conspiracy theories!) 

Buy low, sell high. Basic Economics 101. Why advocate paying the most you can for the TS, instead of the least? You state being highly in debt would be a good thing in a coming/crashing market/economy. And you say foreclosures are bound to happen, but all will be well for you - owning TS property. However, if you are highly in debt - you will NO LONGER own that propery - you will be one of the ones foreclosed upon and will not be able to sit in that quiet, less visited resort!  

As you say, resale values seen today may be a fleeting thing, and eventually the economy will settle out and they may go up. If so, then everyone who has picked up these bargains wins - those who paid full freight (as Alan says ) will also feel better as their ownership might come back up to the 50% mark-down rather than 90% current mark-down after purchasing. But I don't see a scenario coming where the resale purchaser will feel bad that they didn't pay full freight. The "extra's" that may come with developer purchase can always change or be taken away, but the basic week at your resort during a certain time-frame is part of the deed. 

I guess I'll be ok either way, with some developer and some resale.:hysterical: (love this little icon...)


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## sally13 (Oct 22, 2010)

*you know..*

what they say about conpiracies...wherever there are 2  dimes  and 3 people ...you  find a conspiracy!  however if you believe that what I forecast is false ..you really have not paid  attention to what has been going on in the last few years (economics wise) ..the signs are everywhere..Ignore at your own peril..ITS BEING LIQUID ENOUGH TO MAINTAIN YOUR  (REAL) ASSETS..that is the key..oh beieve me ...a whole world of pain  is coming down the pike..we are only 25% into this mess..although this makes the vacation retreats all the more  needed...stay liquid.....I advocate buying Quality..quality will survive the carnage


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 22, 2010)

Sally13, 

There is a whole segment of our population who believes that every family should have a full years worth of provisions in their residences. They also believe in never borrowing money or anything else.

Another sect believes in growing and making everything they need.

A religous group does the horse & buggy and no electric or modern appliances (frozen in time around 1850s). And they speak German after living in USA for 150+ years.

I have up until now, am totally unfamiliar with, the only BUY QUALITY TIMESHARES (full price from the developer and not resale off eBay) and use your limited liquid assets so as "survive the carnage" people. 

Thank you for this info - does this group have a name?


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## Deb from NC (Oct 22, 2010)

Now Linda, you know that in the coming armageddon, only those with overpriced retail timeshares will survive :rofl:  Whereas I, with my paid off house, cars and $ 1 timeshares, well, I'm doomed !!!!


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## Twinkstarr (Oct 22, 2010)

Deb from NC said:


> Now Linda, you know that in the coming armageddon, only those with overpriced retail timeshares will survive :rofl:  Whereas I, with my paid off house, cars and $ 1 timeshares, well, I'm doomed !!!!



:hysterical: :hysterical: 

Don't know where I'd fall, paid off house, few resale TS's(my Wyndham points fall in this category) but perhaps my Disney direct purchases will save me!


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## scrapngen (Oct 22, 2010)

vacationhopeful said:


> Sally13,
> 
> There is a whole segment of our population who believes that every family should have a full years worth of provisions in their residences. They also believe in never borrowing money or anything else.
> 
> ...



  

Ah, but you and Sally forget to include the group that believes in lots of guns and ammo so they can just take what they need from all those who stockpile. 

Then again, the world will end - either in 2012 according to the Mayan calendar (although there is now some question as to whether it was translated correctly...) or due to a large comet/asteroid/planet hitting the  earth just like the dinosaurs died...

OR, the rapture will occur and will save the true believers from all the bad times that everyone else will have to suffer through,  (Thus your best bet is to become a true believer)

or the aliens will come and conquer us and make us all slaves and pillage our natural resources

Oh, and more telling to TS owners, we'll all have to have 666 imbedded in our bodies so that we can purchase goods, or move freely about the country...


Basically, not sure how our TS's (developer purchased or otherwise) will be affected by any of these potential disasters, except maybe in the last instance...

I do agree, though, that _in many of the above scenarios, or Sally's_ tangible assets are more valuable. However, I take this to mean water, food, possibly fuel, shelter - but I don't think we can ideally hole up in our TS's to ride the economic storm out.


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## sally13 (Oct 23, 2010)

*Ok...*

I guess we all can joke  and  pull the blankeys over our eyes...Hey ...sally must be a crack pot right??  Have any of you grasshoppers  done your homework???Have you read Von Mises ?or Fleckenstein?? or Gerald  Celenti ??Have you read Jim Sinclair?? Or Peter Schiff?? How about James Willie or Donald  Trump? Care to read  THE INTERNATIONAL FORECASTER BOB CHAPMAN???...how about Leap 2020...or David Tice...Or Martin Armstrong?....You people are so darn smug it makes me currdle...I am all about results...All of these people have been on top of the movements... They have called the trends way ahead (years) before anyone else... THEY HAVE BEEN ACCURATE..Go ahead get your info fom CNBC...Be the sheep at the slaughterhouse.. all that I say Is do your research..Timesharing talk is but a distraction for me...All your worlds are about to change.. Think it will not happen?? Armegeddon did not happen in Brazil...nor will it happen in the states..IT WILL BE MORE LIKE ...JUST A BIG CRUEL JOKE ON A LOT OF UNSUSPECTING ..FOOLISH ..PEOPLE!!Ignore the people who called it correct for the last 2 decades at your own peril....hell.. do you not even listen to you own Ben Bernankee??.By the way if you do not have 6 months of food and water available to you...YOU ARE A GOOF This post has been a gift... Good luck!


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 23, 2010)

*Major Serious Escalation.*




sally13 said:


> I guess we all can joke  and  pull the blankeys over our eyes...Hey ...sally must be a crack pot right??  Have any of you grasshoppers  done your homework???Have you read Von Mises ?or Fleckenstein?? or Gerald  Celenti ??Have you read Jim Sinclair?? Or Peter Schiff?? How about James Willie or Donald  Trump? Care to read  THE INTERNATIONAL FORECASTER BOB CHAPMAN???...how about Leap 2020...or David Tice...Or Martin Armstrong?....You people are so darn smug it makes me currdle...I am all about results...All of these people have been on top of the movements... They have called the trends way ahead (years) before anyone else... THEY HAVE BEEN ACCURATE..Go ahead get your info fom CNBC...Be the sheep at the slaughterhouse.. all that I say Is do your research..Timesharing talk is but a distraction for me...All your worlds are about to change.. Think it will not happen?? Armegeddon did not happen in Brazil...nor will it happen in the states..IT WILL BE MORE LIKE ...JUST A BIG CRUEL JOKE ON A LOT OF UNSUSPECTING ..FOOLISH ..PEOPLE!!Ignore the people who called it correct for the last 2 decades at your own peril..By the way if you do not have 6 months of food and water available to you...YOU ARE A GOOF This post has been a gift... Good luck!


Shux, I thought this discussion topic was about full-freight timeshares. 

Who know it was about armageddon, etc.?  That stuff is way over my head. 

Till armageddon gets here, I'll just stick with the distraction of timesharing talk. 

Not only that, if I should ever get interested in armageddon, etc. (unlikely as that may be), I suspect I'll spend more time reading about it & discussing it over at some Armageddon-BBS web site than here at TUG, which after all is the 1st & largest web site dedicated to timeshare owners -- & it didn't get that way by spending much time covering the ins & outs of armageddon, etc. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## sally13 (Oct 23, 2010)

*sorry Alan..*

I do not mean to thead drift..But I believe the opening thread was about buying Quality vs. bargain...the Inflation  factor will effect this  topic in more ways then one... by the way I did not escalate this thread to the armegeddon  Phase...It was one of the more cynical posters... Just what will a timesharer do when her Maintinence fees jump by double???or triple???OR more???


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## sally13 (Oct 25, 2010)

*sorry...*

to be a debbie downer...: just thinking outload again


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 25, 2010)

*Best Of Both Worlds.*




sally13 said:


> I believe the opening thread was about buying Quality vs. bargain.


What's truly outstanding is buying _Quality_ timeshares at _Bargain_ prices -- i.e., paying pennies on the full-freight dollar by buying resale. 

And why not ? 

After all, nothing that the timeshare companies are selling at full freight is worth the money anyway.  

Buy timeshares _resale_.  Save _thousands_ of dollars on exactly the same thing, or the equivalent, or something even better. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## sally13 (Oct 25, 2010)

*yep...*

QUALITY TIMESHARES...at bargain pricing...get em while you can...now we just have to figure out if what we REALLY have is true quality??


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## rapmarks (Oct 25, 2010)

I am confused.  buying retail will keep your maintenance fees from escalating?   Why? all the maintenance still needs to be done, the developer no longer pays for anything once it is sold.  and when armegeddon happens, those who paid full price for their timeshares will be better off than those who bought resale?  I am missing something here.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 25, 2010)

*Not Missing A Thing.*




rapmarks said:


> I am confused.  buying retail will keep your maintenance fees from escalating?   Why? all the maintenance still needs to be done, the developer no longer pays for anything once it is sold.  and when armegeddon happens, those who paid full price for their timeshares will be better off than those who bought resale?  I am missing something here.


Full freight owners & resale owners pay exactly the same maintenance fees for the same units.  

There is no advantage whatever to the buyer in paying full freight.  

Paying full freight doesn't even help the timeshare _resort_. 

Paying full freight helps only the timeshare _company_.   

Nothing that the timeshare companies are selling at full freight is worth the money.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## sally13 (Oct 25, 2010)

*first...*

Armageddon is not coming...unless your view of armageddon is prices for EVERYTHING ...tripling...how this plays out in several ways varies...but the one thing we know is it will hurt timeshares more  that are  not well run...these will go bankrupt...shafting owners of these points or deeds.. If the finances are controlled by greedy overleveraged people..these resorts could be defaulted on (FORCE MAJURE)and sold to the chinese !!! all properties have differing long term loans ..HOA or not..: These are the kind of things that define quality....The larger systems will be  milked  with constant new fees for new cash flow..because of  the (EVENT)..everything will be revalued and the weak hands shaken out. If you believe the next 2 to 3 years will be a time of hunkering down and saving your cash.....well....you are in for the surprise of your life....... educate yourself...A good place to start would be Jim rogers..as well as my other suggestions


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 25, 2010)

*Au Contraire, Mon Frère.*




sally13 said:


> all properties have differing long term loans


Not all of'm. 

Some owner-controlled timeshare resorts are totally free & clear -- no mortgages, no loans, no bonds, no notes -- no nothing other than ongoing operational expenses covered by individual owners' regular maintenance fee payments. 

By me, those are the well run timeshare resorts. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## paxsarah (Oct 26, 2010)

sally13 said:


> Armageddon is not coming...unless your view of armageddon is *prices for EVERYTHING ...tripling*...how this plays out in several ways varies...but the one thing we know is it will hurt timeshares more  that are  not well run...these will go bankrupt...shafting owners of these points or deeds.. If the finances are controlled by greedy overleveraged people..these resorts could be defaulted on (FORCE MAJURE)and sold to the chinese !!! all properties have differing long term loans ..HOA or not..: These are the kind of things that define quality....The larger systems will be  milked  with constant new fees for new cash flow..because of  the (EVENT)..everything will be revalued and the weak hands shaken out. *If you believe the next 2 to 3 years will be a time of hunkering down and saving your cash.....well....you are in for the surprise of your life*....... educate yourself...A good place to start would be Jim rogers..as well as my other suggestions



I've put a note in my calendar to revisit this thread in 2-3 years (January 2013, to be precise) to see how Sally's advice and the state of inflation has held up against her predictions.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 26, 2010)

I am wondering the same as Alan: how did this become a discussion about inflation (de-flation) of the $, armegeddon, etc., and why is this thread still going on, when it's become so different from the OT.  

What does the rich get richer and the poor get poorer have to do with timeshares?  

This has become a political discussion.  How odd.  Politics and timeshare do not mix, and when I am enjoying my wonderful timeshares, I don't even watch much news, let alone worry about armeggedon.


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## Rob&Carol Q (Oct 26, 2010)

hyperventilating here.....

Armageddon...Get Some!!!!

Rifle and pistols and knives...oh my.

Politics and conspiracies aside, I've always found it to be super advice to keep a few weeks worth of food on the shelf and a few unattached dollars readily available.  Most of us have the food in the pantry and water in the Hot Water Tank but most of us do not have a stash of cash.

Not quite sure I'd be too attached to my TS if I'm stressing food for the family...kind of a Maslow’s hierarchy of needs thingy.


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 26, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I am wondering ... how did this become a discussion about inflation (de-flation) of the $, armegeddon, etc.(... I don't ... alone worry about armeggedon.



Sorry, Cindy, there was some tongue & cheek humor in the middle of the thread which was never, ever intended on becoming political. Sally13 was explaining how buying from the developer was a better deal than a resale timeshare. 

So, let's go back and review the point where this diverance started?

Sally13, what name does the buy from the developer group go by?


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## scrapngen (Oct 26, 2010)

vacationhopeful said:


> Sorry, Cindy, there was some tongue & cheek humor in the middle of the thread which was never, ever intended on becoming political. Sally13 was explaining how buying from the developer was a better deal than a resale timeshare.
> 
> So, let's go back and review the point where this diverance started?
> 
> Sally13, what name does the buy from the developer group go by?



mea culpa, Cindy, et al.

I think I'm the one who first used the term "conspiracy theories" that led to a bit of divergence. And I tagged on to Linda's humor with a bit of my own...

However, my points were directed at the argument Sally13 was making that in the future she envisions (and many NAMED people who apparently agree or who have helped her formulate this opinion) she claims that those who have 
"legitimate," IOW developer, TS's will be better off and will weather the economic storm due to that "wise" purchase. 

I was positing that in that case, resale TS's are no different as far as their deeded value - that having saved money purchasing said TS was allowing for the purchase of other necessary goods, and in the end, that if everything ends up in a worst case scenario - the TS is the least of our worries, and would be of little use or value as we'd need water, food, etc. 

So, despite the slight divergence, they were still about timesharing - just a bit off the path. 

Also, two posts were merged, and some of the paths are due to the second post more than the first. 

However, I will try to be better about keeping to the forum and subject at hand.


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## sally13 (Oct 26, 2010)

*the inflation topic....*

came up as part of the defining of quality...when future trends are put into the mix..such as the super inflation coming our way..resorts will be less likely to SHAFT the purchaser who bought full price. at the home resort .as there is some loyalty here..(this has played out at reservation  time  and at the front desk on check in)....the situation is not the same with all resorts and systems.. in the near future...the inflation will strain resorts and owners....new sources of revenue will be needed to keep up with spiraling costs...A developer purchased full priced deed will most likely fare better then a resale in that it would come with extras that will make all the  difference in securing the week desired ...such as advanced booking  ....home resort. priority...as we see Glacier canyon trying to put forth...Mostly the argument was about is it EVER wise to buy full price..I proved that it WAS in certain cases.... and that going forward it might just be the only option to get into the finer resorts in the busy times..Make no mistake  ..these marketing whizzes are out to kill the resale advantage...The  gooble gang here tried to run me out of town before I had time to explain my situation..and opinion...Thats all...oh and Linda...the name of the timeshare group your looking for is (the lucky family that gets one of the only lake view units every year in the most valued prime week of summer ..group..)


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## sally13 (Oct 26, 2010)

*armageddon???*

its a point a view based on ones wants and needs..I guess


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## VivianLynne (Oct 26, 2010)

Wow! I am impressed that a comment by Cindy (paraphased) "that this thread was political and way off of the timesharing theme of these boards" created a rather solid defense by an unlikely crew.

Hats to the 'We can poke fun but remain civil' posters, esp Sally13, scrapngen, vacationhopeful, Rob & Carol Q, paxsarah, AwayWeGo, Twinkstarr, Deb from NC, jjmanthei03, etc.

By the way, what were you all drinking? 

 :hysterical:  :rofl:


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 26, 2010)

VivianLynne said:


> By the way, what were you all drinking?
> 
> :hysterical:  :rofl:



Not the Wyndham developer Kool-aid. :rofl: 

Jason


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 26, 2010)

vacationhopeful said:


> Sorry, Cindy, there was some tongue & cheek humor in the middle of the thread which was never, ever intended on becoming political. Sally13 was explaining how buying from the developer was a better deal than a resale timeshare.



No offense taken, and none intended on my part.  I am laughing with the rest of you.:rofl:   I just love timeshare (most are resale, but I have made my developer mistakes) and don't see how the two mix here in this thread.  It's bizarre that the thread went this direction.  

Sally, I read your posts over and over.  The inuendo is that timeshare from the developer is someday going to be more valuable????  Try to sell that timeshare, and you will see how valuable it is.  Especially Wyndham!  Pennies on the dollar is a high price to pay for Wyndham today.  So much for timeshare being an investment.


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## sally13 (Oct 26, 2010)

*the point is.....*

that the resale world in time will be much less of a bargain...in both cheap ..quality timeshares(THE inflation coming home to roost premium )...and the level to what one can use those points or weeks for....EXISTING HOLDERS OF WEAK OUTDATED HANDS ..will suffer...the newer perk filled deeds will make it harder and harder to get your vacation slots...this is already happening....only fixed weeks and quality resorts will dodge this bullet....


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## sally13 (Oct 26, 2010)

*on further thought...*

yes...the new car...used car ..comparison applies perfectly here....if you buy new(devloper with perks)...you have a car(timeshare) with few problems..it works the way it is suposed to (not much new money needed to keep it working properly(getting the weeks you want ..when you want)..as to the cheap used car...you have to constantly dump$$$ into it to make it work properly..(trade in for better contract)(think mayan palace upgrades those of you who own)all timeshare corporations are now playing this game...think about it ..you would not expect an old chevy vega you payed $25. for.. to work like a  new toyota???? ..would you????.....darn I SHOULD be in timeshare sales..I think it is all about the frustration factor in making your weeks work for you..


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## sally13 (Oct 26, 2010)

*also..*

you COULD get a great price on an old classic well made car..muscle car perhaps..(valuble fixed week )on ebay  but I think not on that old vega..all investments (timeshares) are not created =....


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 26, 2010)

Sally13, Be careful as that Chevy Vega comment is dating you.  Did you have a Ford Pinto also or was it a AMC Gremlin? 

As for a muscle car? Are we staying with the American made? Mustang Shelby coupe .... boy, can that car purr.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 26, 2010)

*Au Contraire, Mon Frère.*




sally13 said:


> yes...the new car...used car ..comparison applies perfectly here.


You know better than that. 

"New" & "used" are meaningless in the timeshare biz. 

Remember ?  

Click here if you forgot. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## paxsarah (Oct 26, 2010)

A resale timeshare is more like the 2006 Toyota I bought in 2008 with less than 10,000 miles on it - it had already taken the biggest single hit on its depreciation (the day the original owner drove it off the lot), but was still in perfectly good condition. I have never once regretted not buying new instead.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 26, 2010)

*The Worst Of Both Worlds.*




vacationhopeful said:


> Be careful as that Chevy Vega comment is dating you.  Did you have a Ford Pinto also or was it a AMC Gremlin?


Shux, we had a 1971 Ford Pinto _and_ (later) a 1972 Chevy Vega.  Both lived up to their reputations. 

The Vega was our 1st car with air conditioning.  Unfortunately, the car overheated when the a/c was running. 

What a piece of junk.  

By contrast, all my resale timeshares are indistinguishable from newly deeded units at the same resorts. 

Is this a great country or what ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## melschey (Oct 26, 2010)

sally13 said:


> you COULD get a great price on an old classic well made car..muscle car perhaps..(valuble fixed week )on ebay  but I think not on that old vega..all investments (timeshares) are not created =....



Could explain to me why I should pay thousands of dollars for Wydham points that you almost have to give away after the rescinding period is over.  I don’t see those points increasing in value just because they were purchased from the developer.

The same can be said for WM credits the resale market is about 25% of retail so it is not as bad as Wydham points but I can see no value from purchasing from the developer. Travelshare is a joke for the most part and just a marketing gimmick. 

The way Wyndham is operating both WorldMark and Wyndham Resorts is not going to increase the value of the points just because you purchased them from the developer in my opinion. You make some valid points concerning fixed weeks but I don’t see how those points have any bearing on either Wydham Point or WM credits.


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 26, 2010)

I actually ordered a new Maverick which replaced the Fairlaine after I eluded the NJ State Trooper on I-295 for 20 minutes. I got the Fairlaine, after my Galaxy 500 took 3 inches off the width of a telephone phone (which was still standing 6 months later  ).

Then, I just gave in and brought 'the Porsche'. Its name was "zoom zoom". All those cars (but the Maverick) were *resale* vehicles.

Good thing, too. I was a little hard in my use of wheels.


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## sally13 (Oct 26, 2010)

*amc hornret...*

doors kept falling down...then my baby..mustang mach 1  wish it was mine now!!.sister had the galaxy 500...kind of a bat mobile .but really..we own wyndham..not the strongest hand in the bunch..but we love the waterpark!....I am tired of all of this now  ..If those of you can not see my point by now ...you will in 2 or 3 years...I am content with that...I hope I have at least been entertaining for some of you ....please do the suggested reading..you will not be sorry...as I said before anything of VALUE will soon cost a lot more...selling something in a depression is kind of like getting a haircut from your friend..in the end your not very happy....a points system is not ideal...IMHO


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 26, 2010)

Sally,

I may see you around GC. The water parks were the same reason we bought into Wyndham. We go there probably 5 or 6 times a year. I think we will be there next December 2nd - 5th. DW wants to teach the kids to ski.

Jason


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## sally13 (Oct 27, 2010)

*jason...*

won't be there till next year..but as the kids say...awesome..or..radical..if you really feel like an outing when up there....try christmas mountain...its nearby and a perfect place for the kids to start..


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## jjmanthei05 (Oct 27, 2010)

We weren't sure if we were going to go there or Cascade. I don't ski, so I have no idea which is/would be better. I much prefer to just go to the water parks...man do I hate snow.

Jason


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