# Canada to halt all flights to Mexico and Caribbean thru April 30th



## TUGBrian (Jan 29, 2021)

this seems rather extreme...









						Federal government, airlines agree to halt flights to Caribbean, Mexico; mandatory hotel quarantines coming within weeks
					

Tighter restrictions come in response to concerns about more contagious COVID-19 variants spreading across Canada




					www.theglobeandmail.com


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## Ken555 (Jan 29, 2021)

This shouldn't require registration to read this update: 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55863882


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## moonstone (Jan 29, 2021)

TUGBrian said:


> this seems rather extreme...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup,  and expensive for returning travelers and a year too late! 

(this was also posted in the Covid & Canadian sections)


~Diane


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## Ken555 (Jan 29, 2021)

moonstone said:


> Yup,  and expensive for returning travelers and a year too late!



How can it be a year too late when the strain they're worried about is new? Did you read the articles?



> "New variants of Covid-19 pose a real challenge to Canada," said Mr Trudeau on Friday. "That's why we need to take extra measures."


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## moonstone (Jan 29, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> How can it be a year too late when the strain they're worried about is new? Did you read the articles?


Yes,  Sorry I meant a year late with the restrictions in general, not just as they apply to the UK variant. The rules were too lax for incoming people (visitors and residents) all last year. When we arrived back to Toronto last March we were told to quarantine but nobody checked to see if we really were. (We absolutely did)  When our son returned from a business trip to the US last summer he was handed a sheet of paper with instructions which he saw dozens being thrown out and nobody checked to see if he was quarantining. (he did)  There were no tests being given at the airports until Calgary started last fall. Temperatures of incoming passengers were not being taken, flights from hot spots were slow to be restricted.....

After working in health care for many years and working through other, albeit not as bad, outbreaks I can remember sitting with some friends last February and saying that this Covid wasn't going away anytime soon with the way people were freely moving about around the world.  When our grandson told us he was getting an extra 2 weeks off school for last March Break I laughed. 


~Diane


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## geist1223 (Jan 29, 2021)

I guess Canadians will have to fly to Brazil, Peru, Chile, or Argentina.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Jan 29, 2021)

geist1223 said:


> I guess Canadians will have to fly to Brazil, Peru, Chile, or Argentina.


UK & South Africa too


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Jan 29, 2021)

TUGBrian said:


> this seems rather extreme...



All my thoughts (as  a Canadian)  about those who made this decision  / if written would violate many TUG guidelines.


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## moonstone (Jan 29, 2021)

geist1223 said:


> I guess Canadians will have to fly to Brazil, Peru, Chile, or Argentina.



There will still be flights to Florida and other US cities where people can get other flights to their desired Caribbean/ Mexican destination.  My Brother-in Law's next door neighbours just rearranged their flight from Toronto to their Mexican condo next week. They are now routing through the US instead of taking a direct flight. They plan on staying there until restrictions to re-enter Canada have eased. 

~Diane


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## DannyTS (Jan 29, 2021)

So now there are new models that assume that the new "foreign" variants are more contagious. Like the first time around when the whole world went into lockdown, no actual evidence needed, we just have to take their word for it. Sweden was supposed to have 20 times more deaths since they did not go into a lockdown, yet it did not happen. I did not see any of the so called scientists who designed the initial models and the current ones, explaining how that is possible. "Listen to the science" you are told. OK, I am listening but why are you modelers not saying anything ? Covid was already extremely contagious in the initial form, we were told, but that is past, now it is super, super contagious.  Hmm, once a cheater, always a cheater.

The UK variant for example has been around for about 4 months. If it is so much more contagious, it has already taken over in the UK, right? How many of the new daily cases are the old and how many the new Covid? You do not know? Don't feel ashamed, CDC does not know this either. It is just "assumed" to be more contagious.




People coming back to Canada are going to be put in hotels and pay  $ 666 per day. How did they arrive to this amount and why does it sound familiar? So I can go back to my house and isolate for two weeks away from anyone else but I guess that is not too safe. Better be with hundreds of other people in a crappy hotel. How are they going to transport people to the hotels? And what if people will actually go home? Are you in handcuffs?  Is there a court order to keep you in a hotel room? Or that is not necessary, according to the Chinese, pardon the Canadian laws?

Not related to traveling it seems, they already hired private contractors who have been  checking on people respecting the quarantine. Most cases are in downtown areas not in the suburbs. What can go wrong when a bunch of security guards go knock from door to door? This is not how the virus spreads, right?

I am very proud of Canada in general but truly embarrassed with what is going on.


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## CPNY (Jan 29, 2021)

DannyTS said:


> So now there are new models that assume that the new "foreign" variants are more contagious. Like the first time around when the whole world went into lockdown, no actual evidence needed, we just have to take their word for it. Sweden was supposed to have 20 times more deaths since they did not go into a lockdown, yet it did not happen. I did not see any of the so called scientists who designed the initial models and the current ones, explaining how that is possible. "Listen to the science" you are told. OK, I am listening but why are you modelers not saying anything ? Covid was already extremely contagious in the initial form, we were told, but that is past, now it is super, super contagious.  Hmm, once a cheater, always a cheater.
> 
> The UK variant for example has been around for about 4 months. If it is so much more contagious, it has already taken over in the UK, right? How many of the new daily cases are the old or the new Covid? You do not know? Don't be ashamed, CDC does not know this either.
> View attachment 31689
> ...


Amazing....666


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## DannyTS (Jan 29, 2021)

CPNY said:


> Amazing....666


To play devil's advocate , it is 666.666 and not  666


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## DannyTS (Jan 29, 2021)

I did not see anything about the cancelled flights. Refunds or vouchers? The airlines seem to have agreed with this. How many billions have the taxpayers actually spent on this?


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## AJCts411 (Jan 30, 2021)

DannyTS said:


> I did not see anything about the cancelled flights. Refunds or vouchers? The airlines seem to have agreed with this. How many billions have the taxpayers actually spent on this?



All of the "details' are hidden from the Canadian people.  But do you think that any of the airlines stopped service with zero taxpayer funded incentive? I did read that Air Transat will be refunding cash or giving one year vouchers...


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## DannyTS (Jan 30, 2021)

AJCts411 said:


> All of the "details' are hidden from the Canadian people.  But do you think that any of the airlines stopped service with zero taxpayer funded incentive? I did read that Air Transat will be refunding cash or giving one year vouchers...


I read that Australia and New Zealand are thinking they will keep the same restrictions well into 2022. I hope this is not a sign of what the future has in store for us.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Jan 30, 2021)

DannyTS said:


> I read that Australia and New Zealand are thinking they will keep the same restrictions well into 2022. I hope this is not a sign of what the future has in store for us.



My son told me Australia charges $2500 **for the 14 day hotel quarantine. On a per day cost this is much cheaper than Canada’s new 3 day AI package . . Apparently their  cost of a glass of orange juice is significantly lower.

He did say that you have no say on where you quarantine  - one person could be in a 5 star property and the next person in the Schitt’s Creek Motel - same cost (to you.)

*{I am not sure if this is in Aussie dollars or  a USD conversion. He heard it from a friend who is Australian
so I think it may be the local currency cost.}


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## KiKiDee (Jan 30, 2021)

I was to fly to Cancun April 4th through Air Canada Vacations - they emailed me last night and said I had a choice of a voucher that never expires or a full cash refund. Nice to have a choice


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## DannyTS (Jan 30, 2021)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> My son told me Australia charges $2500 **for the 14 day hotel quarantine. On a per day cost this is much cheaper than Canada’s new 3 day AI package . . Apparently their  cost of a glass of orange juice is significantly lower.
> 
> He did say that you have no say on where you quarantine  - one person could be in a 5 star property and the next person in the Schitt’s Creek Motel - same cost (to you.)
> 
> ...


There is a good chance 2021 is going to be an election year. The more absurd the measures, the better they are probably playing with a certain part of the population.


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## CPNY (Jan 30, 2021)

These measures are a joke. A complete joke. Look at California, their insane lockdown measures didn’t work. These politicians are killing industries.


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## Chrisky (Jan 30, 2021)

DannyTS said:


> I did not see anything about the cancelled flights. Refunds or vouchers? The airlines seem to have agreed with this. How many billions have the taxpayers actually spent on this?


Yes there is information.  Air Canada does not have any info yet, but below is a link to the Air Transat information.  
This should answer part of your question about flights and refunds. 









						Information about coronavirus (COVID-19) | Air Transat
					

COVID-19 is affecting your travel? Browse our FAQ to find answers about your travel credit, on-board safety and travel admissibility.




					www.airtransat.com
				




DannyTS your comment below:
“. I read that Australia and New Zealand are thinking they will keep the same restrictions well into 2022. I hope this is not a sign of what the future has in store for us”

It just might have to be as long as people insist on travelling to other countries.  Australia and New Zealand have done an excellent job of containing the virus, but their citizens have complied with all their regulations as opposed to here in Canada and other countries  where people feel they know better, and can do what they like.


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## DannyTS (Jan 30, 2021)

KiKiDee said:


> I was to fly to Cancun April 4th through Air Canada Vacations - they emailed me last night and said I had a choice of a voucher that never expires or a full cash refund. Nice to have a choice


So the taxpayer is somehow on the hook for the cancellations! There is no way the airlines would have agreed with this without a bailout.  To be honest, this is actually helping us (but I still hate they are doing it). We had a  a trip to Cancun scheduled for March. We had already made the decision not to go but I did not cancel the plane tickets yet, there was no difference if I cancelled then or 2 hours before the trip started. We could only get a voucher we were told, not the money back. I even checked my aeroplan account last evening. Today surprise, surprise, I have the option to cancel for a full refund!


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Jan 30, 2021)

CPNY said:


> These measures are a joke. A complete joke. Look at California, their insane lockdown measures didn’t work. These politicians are killing industries.


Reports in Canada suggest that Air Canada - Air -Transat- Westjet - & Sunwing will likely receive federal subsidies
in return for their compliance to removing winter/ spring flights to Mexico & the Caribbean from their schedules .

The people who work at theMexican & Caribbean resorts that Canadians normally travel to during the winter are taking a bigger  hit.....
- because their jobs and income are at further risk.


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## DannyTS (Jan 30, 2021)

Chrisky said:


> Yes there is information.  Air Canada does not have any info yet, but below is a link to the Air Transat information.
> This should answer part of your question about flights and refunds.
> 
> 
> ...




The virus is here, this measure does not change anything. According to the official numbers, 200,000 new cases since the beginning of the year, virtually almost all community spread. I did not see any hard evidence, or even a decent attempt to convince people that this is science based. 

Governments do not seem to understand what is actually going on with the population, have a holistic approach and realize the health implications all these measures are going to have in the medium term, if they do not have already. There is a known correlation between happiness and health. There are studies that show  that travel reduces the heart attacks by 25-30%. This is staggering number, one can only wonder how much of the excess deaths is not explained by lockdowns and restrictions rather than by the virus itself.  Reinforcing the same idea, there are studies showing that prison reduces the life expectancy by many years. I do not think it is just about food and health care, it is also about the happiness I mentioned.

Few weeks ago there was a big media and social media campaign (most likely instigated by the government) against the snowbirds, they were the public enemy number one. If thousands of Canadians wanted to be happy in the Floridian Sun, IMO power to them even if I was going to go nowhere. Many decided to stay home but many have decided to go. The sky did not fall, they are not coming back sick in the middle of the winter, they are fine where they are and most likely better of than those at home. Some have even gotten a vaccine, the rest of us have little hope for it for a very long time. Not to mention, the more the older people stay in Canada for the winter, the more people you have in the hospitals, right?

Yesterday it just happened I had to go for some minor treatments so I saw two health care practitioners I know relatively well. They both told me they are at the end of the rope and that this measure is one more nail in the coffin.  One of them wanted to make sure I understood. He said he is normally the most positive person you can meet (and I believe it from what I know) but that the current environment is taking a huge toll on his mental health.


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## pymadore (Jan 30, 2021)

The restrictions are in place to minimize the spread of the virus, and now specifically the spread of the several variants that have appeared. All levels of Canadian government have consistently issued 'stay at home and, no travelling' orders. In my province over the past few days two articles appeared in the local paper detailing the plight of a couple who travelled to Florida in early Dec, promptly realized they had COVID and no medical insurance. They are now facing over $300,000 in medical bills. My wife was a retired nurse who has come out of retirement once to be the charge nurse at a COVID assessment center and now about to be part of the vaccination team. Restrictions are put in place for the benefit of EVERYONE, and while some individuals may object and not follow the rules (no mask, no social distancing, etc) the majority of (at least) Canadians understand that society's needs far out weigh those of any one individual. Please follow the science backed precautions and help end this pandemic soon.


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## DannyTS (Jan 30, 2021)

pymadore said:


> The restrictions are in place to minimize the spread of the virus, and now specifically the spread of the several variants that have appeared. All levels of Canadian government have consistently issued 'stay at home and, no travelling' orders. In my province over the past few days two articles appeared in the local paper detailing the plight of a couple who travelled to Florida in early Dec, promptly realized they had COVID and no medical insurance. They are now facing over $300,000 in medical bills. My wife was a retired nurse who has come out of retirement once to be the charge nurse at a COVID assessment center and now about to be part of the vaccination team. Restrictions are put in place for the benefit of EVERYONE, and while some individuals may object and not follow the rules (no mask, no social distancing, etc) the majority of (at least) Canadians understand that society's needs far out weigh those of any one individual. Please follow the science backed precautions and help end this pandemic soon.


Don't you see what is going on? You have a couple who is supposedly in that position and the media went nuts about it. Of course they are not talking about the tens of thousands that still went, are currently in Florida and are actually a huge net saving since if they are not using our health care system at all.

300,000 dollars is really nothing in the grand scheme. I do not understand what your retired wife has anything to do with the snowbirds, can you please elaborate? Are you blaming them or the travelers in any way for her decision to go back to work? If yes, can you please elaborate with numbers related to your community?

I have been following the "science backed" precautions, thank you  very much. Neither me nor anyone in my family got Covid. What were you told last March? The whole world stopped for 6 weeks, certainly Canada stopped. The virus did not go away and it is now stronger than ever. The "science based" approach did not work, and if you believed it at the time, sorry to tell you, you were lied to.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Jan 30, 2021)

pymadore said:


> The restrictions are in place to minimize the spread of the virus,  ........Please follow the science backed precautions and help end this pandemic soon.



There are Canadian “experts” who in my opinion - want zero covid-19 . There are media that amplify their unspoken goal.**

That is not a realistic goal unless we want the massive job losses / homelessness / drug addiction deaths
a generation of school children who have missed out on actual school etc.

These experts are living in a THOUGHT SILO - working remotely - while they get paid.
The modelling being used is suspect when compared to actual results and real world  timelines. Garbage in Garbage Out modelling is not science. It is more like guessing the weather forecast based on it being cloudy today.

masks work - social distancing works. I follow these and many other sensible precautions.

Brampton ON has had higher community & family transmission than Mississauga ON per capita ( both a part of Peel region in Ontario) Brampton has a significant population that cannot work remotely due to the nature of their jobs.

One of these groups is long haul truck drivers who travel across the US / Canada border and bring us essential goods.This is the majority of out of Canada travel currently occurring.
They do not want to get Covid -19 since not working will reduce their pay to $ 0. But if a driver does acquires Covid 19 while out of the country and has no symptoms - it will likely transmit to their family group.

ZERO Covid / to end the pandemic  is not going to happen.
**********
** parts of the Cdn media currently remind me of the US & world media’s unquestioning acceptance of the “existence of weapons of mass destruction” by proponents of that “fact”.


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## KiKiDee (Jan 30, 2021)

RCI was already aware of this ban by the Canadian Government and they immediately refunded my exchange fee and redeposited the week for my use.  Didn't even need to wait on hold this AM to do it.  This is now vacation 6 cancelled due to Covid.  Fingers crossed for October.......


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## pymadore (Jan 30, 2021)

DannyTS said:


> Don't you see what is going on? You have a couple who is supposedly in that position and the media went nuts about it. Of course they are not talking about the tens of thousands that still went, are currently in Florida and are actually a huge net saving since if they are not using our health care system at all.
> 
> 300,000 dollars is really nothing in the grand scheme. If yes, can you please elaborate with numbers related to your community?
> 
> I have been following the "science backed" precautions, thank you  very much. Neither me nor anyone in my family got Covid. What were you told last March? The whole world stopped for 6 weeks, certainly Canada stopped. The virus did not go away and it is now stronger than ever. The "science based" approach did not work, and if you believed it at the time, sorry to tell you, you were lied to.




The $300,000 IS a BIG thing to these people; it is probably financially ruinous. The fact that neither you or your family did not get sick is fortuitous to you and I am happy for you, but others have suffered because they (or others around them) did not follow safe precautions. We are in Nova Scotia, a population of just under 1 million, and as of yesterday we had one new case for a total of 9 current active cases. This was achieved by most peole following the rules and guidlines set forth, and with consideration to the safety of their comunities as a whole. It is difficult, but necessary. 

_I do not understand what your retired wife has anything to do with the snowbirds, can you please elaborate? Are you blaming them or the travelers in any way for her decision to go back to work?_ - No, she went back to help, out of a deep sense of trying to help our community. 

_What were you told last March? - _We were told to return to Canada on 12 March 2020, and we departed Florida on 13 March. We will return when it is safe to do so.

_The virus did not go away and it is now stronger than ever.- _It didn't go away because many jurisdictions did not take it seriously and did not take the proper (or strong enough)  precautions. Under those conditions, the virus was given an effective way to spread rapidly

My comments are meant to convey the great importance of everyone following the safe and sensible precautions to end this pandemic. The measures that are put in place may be difficult for some, but everyone is responsible to do their part to end the pandermic. We all need to help.


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## DannyTS (Jan 30, 2021)

pymadore said:


> The $300,000 IS a BIG thing to these people; it is probably financially ruinous. The fact that neither you or your family did not get sick is fortuitous to you and I am happy for you, but others have suffered because they (or others around them) did not follow safe precautions. We are in Nova Scotia, a population of just under 1 million, and as of yesterday we had one new case for a total of 9 current active cases. This was achieved by most peole following the rules and guidlines set forth, and with consideration to the safety of their comunities as a whole. It is difficult, but necessary.
> 
> _I do not understand what your retired wife has anything to do with the snowbirds, can you please elaborate? Are you blaming them or the travelers in any way for her decision to go back to work?_ - No, she went back to help, out of a deep sense of trying to help our community.
> 
> ...


So in your community there are extremely few cases. Even with the OLD rules in place. Good for your wife she is trying to help but her going back to work seems to be unrelated to traveling. If anything, burned out doctors who have  not been allowed to take a decent vacation may be the reason for shortages of health care staff, more than the actual virus.


Why did the couple have to pay 300,000? Can you please give us a link to the article? Did they have to pay in the States or in Canada? Regardless, why were they there without insurance and why was that different from slipping on a banana?


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## pymadore (Jan 30, 2021)

DannyTS said:


> So in your community, there extremely few cases. Even with the OLD rules in place. Good for your wife she is trying to help but her going back to work seems to be unrelated to traveling. If anything, burned out doctors who have  not been allowed to take a decent vacation may be the reason for shortages of health care staff, more than the actual virus.
> 
> 
> Why did the couple have to pay 300,000? Can you please give us a link to the article? Did they have to pay in the States or in Canada? Regardless, why were they there without insurance and why was that different from slipping on a banana?


1. Nova Scotia snowbirds face huge medical bill after contracting COVID-19 in Florida | Provincial | News | The Chronicle Herald
2. PAUL SCHNEIDEREIT: Why snowbird couple flew into COVID storm | Local-Perspectives | Opinion | The Chronicle Herald

_ If anything, burned out doctors who have  not been allowed to take a decent vacation may be the reason for shortages of health care staff, more than the actual virus. _Medical and hospital staff are burned out due to the extraordinary amount of cases that they have encountered due to the pandemic. When the populace is vaccinated and the pandemic ebbs, they will get their well deserved break. *Thank you all front line workers!!*


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## am1 (Jan 30, 2021)

Too late and too big a swing.  But about the people that have to travel to or from "Sun Destinations".  Should have just limited to people who had to travel and not by using the honour system.  No sympathy for the airlines as they have been promoting travel as much as they have been allowed.


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## DannyTS (Jan 30, 2021)

pymadore said:


> 1. Nova Scotia snowbirds face huge medical bill after contracting COVID-19 in Florida | Provincial | News | The Chronicle Herald
> 2. PAUL SCHNEIDEREIT: Why snowbird couple flew into COVID storm | Local-Perspectives | Opinion | The Chronicle Herald
> 
> _ If anything, burned out doctors who have  not been allowed to take a decent vacation may be the reason for shortages of health care staff, more than the actual virus. _Medical and hospital staff are burned out due to the extraordinary amount of cases that they have encountered due to the pandemic. When the populace is vaccinated and the pandemic ebbs, they will get their well deserved break. *Thank you all front line workers!!*


You just said that there are very few cases in your area so doctors there cannot be burned out because of the number of Covid patients. For many months, everywhere in Canada the hospitals were half empty last year. Not to mention that not every doctor works in a hospital or on a Covid floor. But many are  burned out and they could really use a vacation. *"Thank you all front line workers!!"* you say. Better yet, thank them with some time off down South. 

Concerning the articles you posted,  it is a case of people traveling without insurance. In similar situations people have gone bankrupt for slipping on a banana, a car accident, a heart attack in the States.

If anything, the article points out the amount of pain for some people if they are kept from going South during the winter. Has the government though of them? Has the government thought of the single mothers that may have to go see their sick parents, or bury them in their countries of origin, only to come back home to pay 2,000 dollars for a hotel room for 3 days?

In one of your articles:
“My husband fell off the roof when we lived in Ontario, when he was 59 years old,” Debbie said. He had been taking down Christmas lights. “He broke his back in two places. The doctors told him he’d never walk again. But he did.
“But he is in constant pain, in his back, in his legs. He can barely move in the wintertime, it hurts so bad. But when we go to Florida, he doesn’t have any of that pain. He’s just normal.”
And her?
“I have arthritis. I have fibromyalgia. I have very painful bouts with Crohn’s disease. And liver disease. I’m in constant pain in the wintertime because it’s just so cold,” she said. “When I go to Florida, I’m almost normal. I have hardly any pain at all.”

I am curious though, of all the data (cough, cough) that the PM has presented to the Canadians to justify the decision, what was the most compelling detail that made you think this was the right decision? Maybe I missed the scientific approach but I am very open to listening.


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## Chrisky (Jan 30, 2021)

@DannyTS, 
Of course the virus did not go away,  because here in Ontario businesses started to open as well as restaurants.  It was not too bad in the summer, when patios were open and everyone seemed to be eating outside, as did I.  Then when the weather got cooler, people started going to eat indoors again, going to bars in large numbers, some  restaurants were not  following all protocols, and then our thanksgiving came along, and covid 19 cases started to escalate.  This is where our government should shut everything down again. 
I am not saying this is the only reason our cases started to go up.  There are other reasons such as companies not protecting their employees, or employees being afraid to call in sick because they did not realize that the government had put paid sick leave in place for them.  You will know, I am sure, of many other reasons.  
Science based approach worked in 2 countries that I am aware of, Australia and New Zealand.  The article linked below explains it very well. 









						Don't like Canada's new mandatory quarantine? It's part of why New Zealand is now back to normal — National Post
					

By March 20, New Zealand closed its border to basically anyone except residents, directly in opposition to the recommendations of the WHO




					apple.news
				




As far as I am concerned there will always be people who will find any little thing that was not done right, any thing not properly done by governments. 
But IMO it still boils down to too many people not doing what is asked of them.  Not even trying to help, regardless if they believe in the protocols.  What about doing something for  neighbours, seniors, the community in general instead of only thinking of themselves.  This is only my opinion. There are too many people that whine about doing the right thing, saying ‘this is so hard, I cannot see my friends or my family members’.   As Ret’d. General Rick Hillier said a while ago, “hard?, this is not hard. How hard is it to stay at home, watch tv, use your computers?


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## DannyTS (Jan 30, 2021)

@Chrisky  Do you realistically think that these new measures will destroy the virus in Canada?  It may be news even for the top doctor of the country. Especially since traveling is such a small percentage that it does not really matter. Once the virus is carried by tens of thousands of people already, what New Zealand or Australia did is not gonna work here unless you want to give up food and electricity as well, they should close shop too. I keep on hearing about Asian countries, the mainstream media has not been interested in all the reasons why they have fared better than others. The theory that if we had only been a little bit tougher did not work here, not in the US, not in any major European country.

*According to these, many people in East Asia seem to have antibodies that protect them from the novel coronavirus. Kodama attributed this to the many previous flu viruses and coronaviruses that originated in southern China and caused people in the region to catch colds and related illnesses.
"They have white blood cells that can fight off related viruses such as SARS-CoV-2," Kodama says, adding that this does not make them fully immune but enables their bodies to cope with a certain amount of a similar type of virus. The Nobel laureate and immunologist Tasuku Honjo also argues that there is a great difference between Asians and others when it comes to the genes that control the immune system's response to viruses.









						Why does coronavirus kill fewer people in East Asia? | DW | 12.06.2020
					

People in East Asia seem to be less likely than those in many other parts of the world to die of the coronavirus. But the explanations that have been put forward do not all hold water, as Martin Fritz reports from Tokyo.




					www.dw.com
				



*
I find the article you posted as disingenuous as telling someone that the key to be as rich as  Jeff Bezos is to start an online book store. What is happening now has little to do with health management, it is just preparation for elections and cover for the biggest mismanagement of all during a pandemic: the incapacity of a government to secure in time a decent amount of vaccine for the population. By contrast, look of what Bibi Netanyahu was doing to secure the vaccine, including speaking at 2AM with Pfizer

*"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he was optimistic that Israel would sign a deal with Pfizer for its vaccine candidate “in the coming days.”
In a 2AM phone call (Israel time) last night, said the prime minister’s office, Netanyahu spoke with the US drug giant’s CEO, Dr. Albert Bourla, together with legal representatives from both sides “to remove bureaucratic … difficulties and sign the agreement.”









						Netanyahu: Israel will close Pfizer vaccine deal ‘in days’
					

Netanyahu said 'significant progress was achieved which will enable the signing of the agreement between the State of Israel and Pfizer in the coming days.'




					worldisraelnews.com
				



*
.


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## tgropp (Jan 30, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> How can it be a year too late when the strain they're worried about is new? Did you read the articles?


It was a year to late. Our government missed the boat by letting flights and borders open for any person who wanted to come to Canada...legally or illegally. Any person would realize that all flights from Europe should have been stopped last year when this outbreak started. it was were it all got out of control


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## DannyTS (Jan 30, 2021)

Chrisky said:


> @DannyTS,
> How hard is it to stay at home, watch tv, use your computers?


how hard? This hard for some people











						Suicide deaths higher than COVID-19 deaths amid lockdown, CDC chief warns - LifeSite
					

'We're seeing far greater suicides' and 'deaths from drug overdose' than deaths from COVID, and prolonged school closures may be more dangerous than coronavirus.




					www.lifesitenews.com


----------



## Chrisky (Jan 30, 2021)

Danny TS. Interesting article.  But it was written in July 2020 in the US. I would be interested to read up to date results dealing with Canadian information on that subject.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Jan 31, 2021)

Travel DOES NOT CAUSE COVID**- People interacting with other people allows Covid 19 to spread.

1) so “the science” of shutting down travel is actually focused on a tangential connection to Covid 19
spread.

2) we have well over 100 years of social science study of human behaviour and not any input from all that accumulated research.
- All we get IMO is entitled (Canadian)stuffed shirts with guaranteed pay cheque’s from jobs that can be done remotely - telling everyone else in Canada to : “ stay home and follow” the rules.

3) Canada is not an island .  Australia and New Zealand are islands.
No one can drive a truck to those countries.A huge amount of our Cdn. store sold grocery items are labelled “ Made in USA and arrive by truck - driven by Canadians who travel out of the country.

4) We also import workers to harvest the food we grow in Ontario. The working and living circumstances
for these jobs do not allow them to work remotely.

5) The science of education has shown that many/most children learn and mature when in a physical school setting. If this was not valid - we could give 5 year old one year of in person teaching to read - and then give them 11 years of text books and end up with a highly educated well rounded population of 18 year olds.

6) based on #3 ,  #4 and # 5 -  i personally do not believe that getting to zero covid is a realistic option in Canada.
Those who are pushing that unspoken agenda (in Canada) are living in a “ THOUGHT SILO”

*******
I heard more than one Ottawa based person say this week “ TRAVEL IS DANGEROUS “  as a part of the rational given to Canadians for elimination flights to Mexico and the Caribbean.

to me this is similar to the statement everyone on this forum has heard - “TIMESHARES ARE A SCAM”
We on TUG all know timeshares can be safely bought and used without any danger to our pocketbook;
if you follow financial safety protocols when going - and stay more than 6 feet away from a pen when at a sales presentation.

It is also worth noting that “ if their lips are moving - they are lying “ may not only apply to timeshare sales people.
We should all practice additional critical thinking - when listening and reading.


----------



## amanven (Jan 31, 2021)

The Canadian government never supported having a domestic vaccine manufacturing facility, foolishly assumed they could source vaccines from other countries whenever they needed them,  botched the whole COVID vaccine aquisition program and now face cuts to contracted shipments from Phizer and Moderna and a possible EU export ban so their only COVID strategy now is to lock up Canadians because this is the time of year when Canadians head south.  The federal and provincial politicians got their sunny vacations in during the Christmas holidays so of course they are all for the new restrictions.   They can't make travelling illegal but they can put up so many barriers  it might as well be.  It isn't based on science it's based on optics,  political correctness and the desire to cover their azz after screwing up a national vaccination program.


----------



## DannyTS (Jan 31, 2021)

Chrisky said: 
@DannyTS,
How hard is it to stay at home, watch tv, use your computers?      




Chrisky said:


> Danny TS. Interesting article.  But it was written in July 2020 in the US. I would be interested to read up to date results dealing with Canadian information on that subject.


You want an article from Canada? Why, you think staying home and watching TV for 300 days straight is good for the mental health of an 18 yo? Or for anybody of any age?













						The pandemic has made post-secondary students' mental health even worse
					

The pandemic has made Canadian post-secondary students' mental health worse. It's time for schools to make structural changes




					nowtoronto.com


----------



## DannyTS (Jan 31, 2021)

@Chrisky More about the mental health and the pandemic, from a Canadian prospective. My  guess is that the winter has only exacerbated the problem. In some parts of the country even the ski slopes are closed. Maybe watching Netflix, browsing Facebook, playing video games all day long are not that great for your health (physical and mental).

The media has been mostly ignoring these problems. It is much easier to report on the Covid numbers so graciously provided daily by the government. Every other statistics can wait few months.













						One in 10 Canadians say they’ve contemplated suicide since the pandemic began
					

The results of the Canadian Mental Health Association’s latest survey reveal a large decline in Canadians’ mental health since May. Those who are Indigenous, LGBTQ and with pre-existing mental health conditions reported higher rates of decline than others.




					www.thestar.com


----------



## CPNY (Jan 31, 2021)

DannyTS said:


> @Chrisky More about the mental health and the pandemic, from a Canadian prospective. My  guess is that the winter has only exacerbated the problem.
> 
> View attachment 31745
> 
> ...


The recession in 2008 led to an increase in an additional 50K suicides in the US. This will be worse and seen for many many years. Nyc early on was hell, staying home was hell. 

The saving grace for me was interval international. Being able to use so many AC’s and escape NYC back in May/June/July prob saved me from a heart attack. That’s a serious statement.


----------



## DannyTS (Jan 31, 2021)

@Chrisky Because I think it is important, because the media does not cover it much if at all these days. So on one hand watching TV and browsing the internet are bad for your health. Studies also show that traveling is good for your health. Something does not make sense with what is going on where everything is ranked by the risk to Covid and nothing else seems to matter.









						How Internet Addiction Can Effect Your Physical Health – Alta Mira Recovery
					

Observable and destructive physical effects of internet addiction serve to endanger both somatic and psychological health.




					www.altamirarecovery.com


----------



## Chrisky (Jan 31, 2021)

DannyTS, I read  the  article you posted from the Toronto Star about ‘one in ten Canadians say they have contemplated suicide’. 
I agree we need to do more for mental health issues.


----------



## DannyTS (Jan 31, 2021)

Chrisky said:


> DannyTS, I read  the  article you posted from the Toronto Star about ‘one in ten Canadians say they have contemplated suicide’.
> I agree we need to do more for mental health issues.



So pre-pandemic 1.8% of the Canadians contemplated suicide, in September the number was 10%, almost 6 times more. It is nice of you to say we have to do more for mental health issues while ignoring the fact that the situation is actually due to how the governments chose to deal with this: closure of businesses, lockdowns, restriction of movement and  restriction of individual liberties, decisions that are NOT based on science (or at least not shared with the public). I do not understand how you can say "we" have to do more for  mental health AND support the madness that derives from these measures at the same time. It is like rooting for the arsonist and the fireman at the same time. Sorry, I am not trying to pick on you but it seems that the "how hard is to stay home and watch TV?" mantra is widespread and one of the most long lasting talking points of this pandemic. You could almost understand it last April (although clearly it was still misplaced since nobody expected it to be over soon) but so many months later one would hope to not hear it any longer. According to the article:

"a staggering, unprecedented figure that experts say shows the extent of the prolonged mental health toll COVID-19 has on the population. "


----------



## DannyTS (Jan 31, 2021)

What a disaster!!! Is it clear now why the new travel restrictions? As I said before, just a smoke screen to cover the incompetence in procuring the vaccine.














						Canada To Lag 6 Months Behind U.S., Europe In Vaccinations: Forecast
					

The general population will likely not be vaccinated before mid-2022, a new report says.




					www.huffingtonpost.ca


----------



## DannyTS (Jan 31, 2021)

Diane Francis: Was the botched vaccine roll-out a result of Trudeau placing too much faith in China?
					

Getting vaccines for all Canadians was a moral obligation. To rely on an unscrupulous, sworn enemy is asking for trouble




					financialpost.com
				












						Canada-China vaccine collaboration began to fall apart days after Ottawa announced clinical trials
					

Federal government’s COVID-19 Vaccine Task Force lost enthusiasm for the CanSino research after vaccine seeds headed for Canada were held up by customs at Beijing airport, research council says




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				





This is how our government "helped" the local companies make our own vaccine. China has a vaccine, Russia has a vaccine, Europe and US have a vaccine. What an unmitigated disaster. We have to remember, every month of the pandemic is costing us more than 30 billion dollars. One billion dollars a day!













						Corbella: COVID vaccine solution was here in Calgary while Trudeau looked to China
					

'We're no longer two months behind Moderna, we're one year behind. If we had $1 billion we would have finished at the same time as Moderna. But we never asked…




					calgaryherald.com
				















						Made-in-Canada solution to COVID-19 vaccine availability delayed due to unfinished construction
					

Even if construction wasn't months behind at the Montreal facility, Canada hasn’t secured the rights to manufacture that vaccine




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Chrisky (Jan 31, 2021)

You say “the situation is actually due to how the governments chose to deal with this: closure of businesses, lockdowns, restriction of movement and restriction of individual liberties”. 
IMO the situation is due to covid 19 and the fact that people repeat what you just quoted. It is everyone else’s fault that we are seeing an increase of covid cases here in Ontario and Canada, that we now have 20,000 deaths in Canada; and please do not say these are all LTC people, many of these deaths are people of all ages. 
Of course it is not because people are following the protocols, it is because they are choosing to ignore just the simplest of protocols like wearing masks, social distancing, washing hands. 
I am tired of everyone blaming the government or someone else. Of course, in some instances things could have been done better.   People need to take responsibility for their own irresponsible behaviour.  
Here in Ontario we did quite well in the beginning with following protocols, now because it is getting harder and harder to follow, people need to blame someone else for the numbers going up.  Oh, let’s blame the government. Let’s blame the fact the vaccines we ordered have been delayed.  Of course,  neglecting to mention that it is Pfizer and Moderna who did not plan ahead in making sure they could produce the billions of vials ordered in a timely manner.   
I know you have posted many studies and graphs about covid, and IMO you are very critical of everything the government has done.  You must have a perfect solution to this pandemic.  Perhaps you could enlighten our government in how to proceed and correct our problem.


----------



## Basia (Jan 31, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> How can it be a year too late when the strain they're worried about is new? Did you read the articles?


2% of the Covid19 in Canada has come in from flights...many of these were local or domestic. It is true that our uninformed leader did not react asap when we first heard of this virus.  Covid19 has been around over 128 years. A virus mutates and these variants are from other countries. That means we Canadians have a variant perhaps that might be brought with us to other countries. A virus like a cold sore always lives in our body and our own bacteria replicates and attacks this virus.  A virus wants to survive and it mutates which means it is a variant.
For a scientist so much is still unknown which means until we do it poses as a global health threat.
If this virus is so life threatening why are world leaders, politicians, CEO`s, and medical experts taking vacations abroad???
Nancy Pelosi went to her hairdresser not taking any precautions such as 6 feet or 2 M distance and certainly no face mask?
On my last visit to Mexico I can assure you that I saw far more precautions by the locals in stores, and just about anywhere I visited.  The resorts have taken far more precautions than any hotel here in the Metro Vancouver area. On that trip this December to Mexico I met epidemiologists, professors, doctors, scientists, nurses all from Canada or the USA.
Is there perhaps a bigger goal here by our governments?
It took Hitler 9 years to reach his goals at a time when Germany was starving...it took a wheelbarrow of money to buy a loaf of bread. 
A change in power perhaps? History may be the window and our strongest indicator what the future may bear.  A virus is serious and for a scientist it is the most cost effective way to stage a war on a nation and the people.
Health is Wealth!


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Jan 31, 2021)

Basia said:


> 2% of the Covid19 in Canada has come in from flights...many of these were local or domestic. If....... why are world leaders, politicians, CEO`s, and medical experts taking vacations
> 
> On my last visit to Mexico I can assure you that I saw far more precautions by the locals in stores, and just about anywhere I visited.  The resorts have taken far more precautions than any hotel here in the Metro Vancouver area. On that trip this December to Mexico I met epidemiologists, professors, doctors, scientists, nurses all from Canada or the USA.



Welcome to TUG
I assume you are from British Columbia Canada


----------



## DannyTS (Jan 31, 2021)

Chrisky said:


> You say “the situation is actually due to how the governments chose to deal with this: closure of businesses, lockdowns, restriction of movement and restriction of individual liberties”.
> IMO the situation is due to covid 19 and the fact that people repeat what you just quoted. It is everyone else’s fault that we are seeing an increase of covid cases here in Ontario and Canada, that we now have 20,000 deaths in Canada; and please do not say these are all LTC people, many of these deaths are people of all ages.
> Of course it is not because people are following the protocols, it is because they are choosing to ignore just the simplest of protocols like wearing masks, social distancing, washing hands.
> I am tired of everyone blaming the government or someone else. Of course, in some instances things could have been done better.   People need to take responsibility for their own irresponsible behaviour.
> ...


I invite you to read and especially watch the Youtube videos from this thread. To be clear I am not saying that there is no Covid problem but looking how the sky did not fall in countries that did nothing, zero, nada, one can wonder the degree of exaggeration we have been exposed to in this country.









						Tourism in Tanzania, Covid edition
					

No mitigation measures. Why aren't  the locals and the tourists dying in droves from Covid?       @Ken555




					tugbbs.com


----------



## DannyTS (Jan 31, 2021)

@Chrisky Are you blaming the manufacturers for not providing the vaccine to Canada? It was to be expected that everybody was going to want the vaccine and that it was going to be in short supply for a long time. We are one of the G7 countries and only number 20 in the world in terms of vaccines per capita. Situation is getting worse actually since the deliveries are getting smaller.  We failed at every level: we did not encourage and finance properly  our own production, we relied on an unreliable partner with hidden interests (communist China) we did not put enough pressure on the producers when and where it mattered.  How come in the US they are ramping up the vaccination while we are scrambling? Production problems or not, others are getting it ahead of us and this is costing us 1 billion dollars a day.


----------



## Rman (Jan 31, 2021)

obviously people should have medical insurance wherever there are flying or going, would get rid of medical expenses, society is the way people see themselves, the vast majority will follow precautions, but a complete lockdown can have too many detrimental effects, especially if you like travelling, not to mention mental health etc...,
The good of a society is only determined by the people that live and enjoy there etc., if you can travel and isolate at home when returning I think that would be reasonable.

I believe the airlines are quoting  only 1-2 Percentage of travellers are having covid , very low numbers etc...

This is a difficult time that will pass, hopefully in 6 months will be a lot better lets see.


----------



## jabberwocky (Feb 1, 2021)

Rman said:


> This is a difficult time that will pass, hopefully in 6 months will be a lot better lets see.


Some very smart people I regard highly told me everything would be better in six months...sadly that was March 2020.


----------



## jabberwocky (Feb 1, 2021)

Chrisky said:


> IMO the situation is due to covid 19 and the fact that people repeat what you just quoted. It is everyone else’s fault that we are seeing an increase of covid cases here in Ontario and Canada, that we now have 20,000 deaths in Canada; and please do not say these are all LTC people, many of these deaths are people of all ages.


No. Not all of the deaths are LTC. But you can’t ignore the fact that age drives this and LTC is a big problem. To say that the virus doesn’t discriminate based on age is a false narrative. If you look at it from a risk perspective, those over 70 have a 20% chance of dying if diagnosed. Those under 30 have a 0.01% chance.

Ontario statistics (total deaths 6223) show that 87% of the deaths are in those over age 70. 4% of deaths are under age 60.  Those under age 30 account for 10 deaths despite having 91,627 cases or around 33% of total cases. A similar picture holds for many other provinces.  
https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data



Chrisky said:


> Let’s blame the fact the vaccines we ordered have been delayed.  Of course,  neglecting to mention that it is Pfizer and Moderna who did not plan ahead in making sure they could produce the billions of vials ordered in a timely manner.


What Pfizer and Moderna have done in less than one year has been astounding. In Canada we have been extremely naive to think that everyone in the world would play nice and just ship vaccines to us without taking care of their own population. No need to develop our own manufacturing capacity - we bought enough vaccine to cover everyone 5X over, but failed to specify when it should be delivered.

I think it is incredibly sad (okay, damning) that as of today (Feb 1) the US has given out as many shots per capita as Canada had planned to inject by the end of March (and that was before things went off the rails).


----------



## Nory (Feb 2, 2021)

This is a great discussion but please write your member of parliament for vaccine manufacturing to be developed in Canada. We still do not know if vaccinaion will be necessary yearly like the flu or if more pandemics will arise.  We cannot afford another pandemic and lockdowns.  Our grandkids will be poverty stricken.  I have cancelled eight timeshare weeks and a ninth hotel holiday.  We are hoping a simple Canadian ski holiday with one son, our daughter in law and little grandboy may occur in March. In the meantime my chronic autoimmune connective tissue disorder is flaring big time and from past experience I know a nice hot trip to Mexico or Hawaii would significantly help my pain. My rheumatologist told me I should live in a tropical location.  Well, good luck as a Canadian but timeshares trades, Getaways, and rentals normally really help.  We need to force this government with a letter writing and facebook campaign to support local vaccine manufacturing.  Cheers Timesharers and thanks for lots of good info.  Nory


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Feb 2, 2021)

Nory said:


> This is a great discussion but please write your member of parliament for vaccine manufacturing to be developed in Canada. We still do not know if vaccinaion will be necessary yearly like the flu or if more pandemics will arise.  We cannot afford another pandemic and lockdowns.  Our grandkids will be poverty stricken.  I have cancelled eight timeshare weeks and a ninth hotel holiday.  We are hoping a simple Canadian ski holiday with one son, our daughter in law and little grandboy may occur in March. In the meantime my chronic autoimmune connective tissue disorder is flaring big time and from past experience I know a nice hot trip to Mexico or Hawaii would significantly help my pain. My rheumatologist told me I should live in a tropical location.  Well, good luck as a Canadian but timeshares trades, Getaways, and rentals normally really help.  We need to force this government with a letter writing and facebook campaign to support local vaccine manufacturing.  Cheers Timesharers and thanks for lots of good info.  Nory



Thanks for adding to the discussion.
I noticed that you joined in 2008 / so Welcome to TUG as a 3rd time poster.
hope to see more in the future.


----------



## AJCts411 (Feb 2, 2021)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Thanks for adding to the discussion.
> I noticed that you joined in 2008 / so Welcome to TUG as a 3rd time poster.
> hope to see more in the future.



There is vaccine manufacturing being built in Canada.  Bugled at the beginning and now with promises by the government of vaccine everyone for Sept. 2021 the manufacturing is scheduled to be ready at the end when, according to the government,  all will have access to the vaccine, July 2021is the latest date following many date push backs.   Now you can understand why many say this latest outrageous attack on ordinary Canadians is a smoke screen for the continued failures of the government.


----------



## DannyTS (Feb 2, 2021)

The Operation Worm Speed in full display! 













						Federal government signs deal to make Novavax COVID vaccine at Montreal facility still being built
					

If projections to vaccinate all Canadians by September hold, the vaccines made in Montreal will come at the end of the domestic rollout




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Nory (Feb 2, 2021)

Saw that this morning too.


----------



## amanven (Feb 4, 2021)

More travel fall out in Canada


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-canada-rouge-1.5900639
		


I found this part of the article really called the spade a spade 

"Prof. Fred Lazar of the Schulich School of Business at York University in Toronto said the move is just another body blow to an airline industry that can't afford it.

"I'm not surprised, but disappointed," he said of the news in an interview. 

"There is almost no place they can travel these days," Lazar said, because government rules have systematically reined in every way the airlines have come up with to stay in business through the pandemic.

He said travel is being unfairly targeted as a way of deflecting attention from Canada's COVID-19 vaccine rollout, which is behind schedule and well behind the pace of other countries.

*Running out of options*
"There is no real logic to what they are doing," he said. "They are doing it to cater to the vast majority of Canadians that have a holier than thou attitude toward travel."

And another backhand from the Canadian government to the travel industry




__





						Cruise ship visits to Canada now banned until February 2022
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## CanuckTravlr (Feb 4, 2021)

amanven said:


> More travel fall out in Canada
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-canada-rouge-1.5900639
> ...



I agree with the need to support the Canadian airline industry, especially now that most commercial options are being shut down.  While the laid-off pilots, flight attendants, ground and service crew can access CERB payments, we are one of the few developed countries to not have any direct support available for our airline industry.  It needs to be there when this ends and travel is able to resume with some normality.

However, I disagree with the tone of Fred Lazar's last quote.  He has good academic credentials, but he hasn't changed that much since I attended the Schulich School of Business.  We are in the middle of a pandemic and we may disagree with the specific measures being taken, but he doesn't have a crystal ball anymore than the rest of us do.  So we can do without the character assignations of those whom he obviously disdains. 

The last time I checked we still live in a democracy where the majority rules.  The majority of Canadians, for whatever reason(s), do support these measures.  While some of those may have a so-called "holier-than-thou" attitude toward travel, that characterization is itself a "holier-than-thou" comment.  In effect it says that he, the great and scholarly professor, knows better than "the great unwashed".  Give me a break!

I have always disliked this type of academic arrogance.  It has no place in this discussion.  Make your case, suggest your alternative strategy, but leave out the invective, even if it makes a great sound bite!


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Feb 4, 2021)

amanven said:


> More travel fall out in Canada
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-canada-rouge-1.5900639
> ...



That holier than thou attitude is (IMO) a historical legacy remnant of a paternalistic British colonialism that infused part of the history of Canada. The treatment of Louis Riel - the residential school program are some specific historical examples.
-perhaps both those in Ottawa who make these decisions for “everyone’s good”
and Fred Lazar suffer from this issue.

The just announced  (Feb 3) “plan” -of Canada getting 1.1 million doses of Astra Zeneca’s vaccine from Covax ** by the end of March strikes me as a “ J Wellington Wimpy move - “ I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday* for a hamburger today“

* Canada apparently  has many more doses “ on order “ per capital for delivery (at some future date) than any other country.
** Covax was designed to help supply vaccine to countries that couldn’t afford to pay with funding  from countries that can.

I personally am not comfortable with pushing to the front of any line - and then paying on a future Tuesday.


----------



## amanven (Feb 4, 2021)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> * Canada apparently  has many more doses “ on order “ per capital for delivery (at some future date) than any other country.



Fat lot of good "on order" does us.  Until Canada gets a backbone and ensures we develop own domestic vaccine production facilities and adopts a Defence Production Act like the US has, we will probably need the likes of Covax.


----------



## DannyTS (Feb 4, 2021)

CanuckTravlr said:


> I agree with the need to support the Canadian airline industry, especially now that most commercial options are being shut down.  While the laid-off pilots, flight attendants, ground and service crew can access CERB payments, we are one of the few developed countries to not have any direct support available for our airline industry.  It needs to be there when this ends and travel is able to resume with some normality.
> 
> However, I disagree with the tone of Fred Lazar's last quote.  He has good academic credentials, but he hasn't changed that much since I attended the Schulich School of Business.  We are in the middle of a pandemic and we may disagree with the specific measures being taken, but he doesn't have a crystal ball anymore than the rest of us do.  So we can do without the character assignations of those whom he obviously disdains.
> 
> ...


The majority rules but not by trumping over the rights and liberties of  minorities, the Charter of rights and freedoms is still standing, I guess. We still believe in the liberty of expression (well, at least until  the new Ministry of Truth is up and running, we shall see after that), and the liberty of movement should be protected as well. For many people 2000 dollars is a lot of money, they are in fact banned from traveling because of the new rule. If  there was a 2000 dollars fine for saying anything negative about the prime minister, wouldn't that be considered limiting the right of expression? Would that fly in our society?

The measures could have made sense if they were implemented last February. There were few if any cases in Canada at the time so we could have possibly kept the virus at the border. But now? The community spread is as high in parts of Canada as it is elsewhere. Nothing from the statistics I have seen prove that traveling is a problem now  in spreading the virus. I have seen statistics that travelers were 1.5% positive. That is not unlike the prevalence in the community, as a matter of fact I think those tested within Canada have a higher percentage of positives. Not to mention, the PCR tests give positive results weeks if not months after contact (infection or not). You can get  Covid at Costco, leave to Mexico two months later for a week, when you return you test positive.

Going back to the rule of majority, this is a notion used by governments only when it is convenient for them, otherwise they could  not care less (when they  send troops to wars it does not apply). It is also very dangerous because there is currently no real democratic debate in Canada about a wide range of issues, all more or less frozen conveniently due to Covid. So the public does not seem to receive a healthy dose of analysis on this and is rather consumed by jealousy. From the comments I have read on G&M and NP, the dominant idea seems to be that if I do not travel, why should others do it, the focus is not at all on the science behind the decision.

Do you want the rule of majority? They should have asked last year if we wanted Canada to finance extensively the developement and the production of a vaccine. I have an idea what the Canadians would have answer but sadly, I do not remember anyone asking us and the government was clearly asleep at the switch.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Feb 4, 2021)

amanven said:


> Fat lot of good "on order" does us.  Until Canada gets a backbone and ensures we develop own domestic vaccine production facilities and adopts a Defence Production Act like the US has, we will probably need the likes of Covax.


I originally wrote -“allegedly “and changed it to “apparently” / either way I am skeptical


----------



## DannyTS (Feb 4, 2021)

amanven said:


> Fat lot of good "on order" does us.  Until Canada gets a backbone and ensures we develop own domestic vaccine production facilities and adopts a Defence Production Act like the US has, we will probably need the likes of Covax.


The deficit is 380 billion dollars. We did not lack the financial resources to make it happen, we did not lack the scientific human capital and there was no shortage of companies that would have loved to be helped to develop and produce it. The missing ingredient was leadership.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Feb 4, 2021)

DannyTS said:


> ...........They should have asked last year if we wanted Canada to finance extensively the developement and the production of a vaccine. I have an idea what the Canadians would have answer but sadly, I do not remember anyone asking us and
> the government was clearly asleep at the switch.


as was / is the Canadian media.

we have 100+ years of social science research on human behaviour.
All the Canadian media does is parrot the “ everyone should follow the rules”

Those in charge across Canada keep citing that they are following science / however portions of the rules
(Ontario is the only jurisdiction in N.America that has mandated that all ski areas close) make little scientific sense.

 Including the scientific research on human behaviour would improve the process of public safety.

In general the Canadian media has asked nothing and challenged nothing.
You would think critical thinking skills were non-existent in Canadian media.


----------



## DannyTS (Feb 4, 2021)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> as was / is the Canadian media.
> 
> we have 100+ years of social science research on human behaviour.
> All the media does is parrot the “ everyone should follow the rules”
> ...


The few press conferences I listened to during Covid had the appearance of  well rehearsed plays where the journalists knew exactly when and what to ask the PM. I am not saying this is what happened  but the questions were that soft.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 5, 2021)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> You would think critical thinking skills were non-existent in Canadian media.



Critical thinking is missing EVERYWHERE, especially in the USA.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## PrairieGirl (Feb 5, 2021)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> In general the Canadian media has asked nothing and challenged nothing.
> You would think critical thinking skills were non-existent in Canadian media.



I moved to Canada in the mid 80s from the US.  At the time I was *so *impressed with the Canadian media for their global perspective on world issues.  Unfortunately that is absolutely no longer the case, nor has it been for many years.   It is frightening to see what has been going on in the current administration with nary a word from the media.  

And they (the media)* crucified* Mike Duffy for what? $10,000 that was later thrown out in criminal court?  

This latest Covid travel restriction thing is simply a smokescreen to divert attention from the dismal vaccine availability situation in Canada. 

And our media buys into it because "he who is smart doesn't bite the hand that feeds it".  

Totally embarrassing!


----------



## DannyTS (Feb 5, 2021)

How Ottawa utterly botched Canada's COVID vaccine acquisition
					

Despite spending more money on this pandemic than anyone else, Canada is lagging behind almost every other developed nation in vaccination numbers




					nationalpost.com


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## Tia (Feb 5, 2021)

Exactly!  I was thinking same when I read the comments by DannyTS and 
T-Dot-Traveller





Ken555 said:


> Critical thinking is missing EVERYWHERE, especially in the USA.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## amanven (Feb 5, 2021)

Canada has sunk to a new low!



			Trudeau defends accepting COVAX vaccines, says Canada still supports poor countries


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## echino (Feb 5, 2021)

Regarding travel restrictions, the vast majority of Canadians support them. To me personally it looks like it's not motivated by science or the goal to end Covid, but rather by jealousy and Crabs in a Bucket mentality.









						Crab mentality - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## DannyTS (Feb 5, 2021)

echino said:


> Regarding travel restrictions, the vast majority of Canadians support them. To me personally it looks like it's not motivated by science or the goal to end Covid, but rather by jealousy and Crabs in a Bucket mentality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is why it is so easy to increase the taxes in this country. As long as a majority of people is not affected, they can always target one group at the time and there will always be a majority to suport the increase. Those who support these measures do not seem to realize they may be next on the bord.


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## DannyTS (Mar 11, 2021)

jahari said:


> You say that as if the government is responsible for the covid, you are not being asked to sacrifice yourself to save lives but just to stay at home.


Welcome to TUG. 

The problem is I have seen very poor evidence of that.


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