# Minimum VIP Platinum buy in cost



## cbyrne1174 (Dec 14, 2018)

What would be the approximate minimum VIP Platinum buy in cost if someone already had two 3 bedrooms to PIC to platinum and just bought the minimum retail points (492,000) to PIC to platinum.

I know telesales is cheaper, but if I ask them directly, they'll just lie to me.

I'm just curious if retail purchases are ever at any given point worth it.


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## tschwa2 (Dec 14, 2018)

I'll give it a stab.  If you did it in 4 separate purchases, you would probably pay $85,000-$90,000 plus whatever financing costs.

If you called up and said, I don't care where I'm deeded, I am ready to write a check today for the full amount, I want 492,000 points and a contract that includes 2 PIC weeks, I think they could do it for $55,000-$65,000.


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## ronparise (Dec 14, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> What would be the approximate minimum VIP Platinum buy in cost if someone already had two 3 bedrooms to PIC to platinum and just bought the minimum retail points (492,000) to PIC to platinum.
> 
> I know telesales is cheaper, but if I ask them directly, they'll just lie to me.
> 
> I'm just curious if retail purchases are ever at any given point worth it.



they will probably start talking at over $200 per 1000 and settle at about $150


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## Richelle (Dec 14, 2018)

You can enroll up to two PIC weeks for a maximum for 508,000 points (two 3 bedrooms).  Then you have to buy 492,000 points to reach Platinum.  The more points you buy, the bigger the discount.  I say offer $125 per 1,000.  They may counter with $140, but you can probably squeeze out $135 out of them.  So platinum at that price will run you just under $67,000.  I believe telesales is offering piggyback deeds which may reduce your overall cost.  Now the question is, even if you get it for $40,000, is platinum worth that much to you?


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## HitchHiker71 (Dec 14, 2018)

At 492k CWA points I'd say you could get at least $128/1000 if not lower.  I know someone recently purchased a 210k contract for around $130/1000, minus rebates.  There are piggyback contracts available IIRC however most of them have high MFs, so run the numbers on the up front vs long term MF costs to be sure the differential is worthwhile if going down this road.


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## am1 (Dec 14, 2018)

If you go that route buy 493k points.  You will thank me later.


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## Sandy VDH (Dec 14, 2018)

am1 said:


> If you go that route buy 493k points.  You will thank me later.



Exactly, having over 1 M will double up on your CGs from 15 to 30.    It is worth having an extra few K around for that. 

On paper I have 1.224M, but I never deposit my PIC weeks so I only actually have 916K.  But having 30 GCs adds a lot of buffer.  If I only had 15 I would run out, but with 30, I have only ever used them all up once.


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 14, 2018)

I feel like that would take 20-30 years to break even unless you mega rented millions of resale points out on top of the retail ones.

Why do Wyndham educated people still buy into the VIP benefits? Is it a status thing? Are they just really wealthy? $65,000 is more than most people make in a year....Even renting out all 1,000,000 points with the best weeks reserved would still take AT LEAST 15 years to break even vs just paying for the guest certificates and not getting point discounts.

The only point (in my mind) that I see it being cost effective is if you actually owned an extra 3,000,000+ resale points at low MF resorts and used VIP benefits to mega rent ALL those points out. But if you did that, wouldn't your account become flagged for abusing the system?


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## Sandy VDH (Dec 14, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> The only point (in my mind) that I see it being cost effective is if you actually owned an extra 3,000,000+ resale points at low MF resorts and used VIP benefits to mega rent ALL those points out. But if you did that, wouldn't your account become flagged for abusing the system?



At this time this is not abuse of the system.  If they change the rules yes, but not right now.  Accounts are flagged as VIP, not the points in them.  So if you manage to get a Platinum VIP status account you add extra cheap resale points to it, provided you do not exceed the number of contracts permitted on an account.  I do not know what that limit is now, perhaps 20 or 30???  

But all points in the account get VIP treatment.


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## tschwa2 (Dec 15, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I feel like that would take 20-30 years to break even unless you mega rented millions of resale points out on top of the retail ones.
> 
> Why do Wyndham educated people still buy into the VIP benefits? Is it a status thing? Are they just really wealthy? $65,000 is more than most people make in a year....Even renting out all 1,000,000 points with the best weeks reserved would still take AT LEAST 15 years to break even vs just paying for the guest certificates and not getting point discounts.
> 
> The only point (in my mind) that I see it being cost effective is if you actually owned an extra 3,000,000+ resale points at low MF resorts and used VIP benefits to mega rent ALL those points out. But if you did that, wouldn't your account become flagged for abusing the system?



Because they aren't aiming at selling platinum memberships to those that know about the resale market.  They aren't trying to sell to people who are worried about breaking even in 5 -10 years.  If platinum could be had easily for $15,000-$20,000 there would be a lot more platinum owners. Platinum is supposed to be for the top 10% of owners maybe even less.  They are looking at selling platinum ideally to those who typically rent out 2-4 bedroom weeks for 
$3000-$5000 per week booking on hotel booking sites.  

Using PIC, Gold is more cost effective and while you don't get all the benefits, if you aren't so concerned about renting out to save on costs and just want to vacation for several weeks per year with a fair degree of flexibility, then it may be the way to go if you are looking to keep your initial out lay of cash to less than $30,000.


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## bendadin (Dec 15, 2018)

I heard $35k for 248k points CWA. That was before they said that I was on the do not sell list. I was looking for a piggyback deed but couldn't find one  Now they are schlepping foreclosed deeds that have loans already attached.  

But after this little game of blocking me from a developer purchase, I'm not so sure that it is wise for me to go any deeper if they decide that I can purchase again.


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## antjmar (Dec 15, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I feel like that would take 20-30 years to break even unless you mega rented millions of resale points out on top of the retail ones.
> 
> Why do Wyndham educated people still buy into the VIP benefits? Is it a status thing? Are they just really wealthy? $65,000 is more than most people make in a year....Even renting out all 1,000,000 points with the best weeks reserved would still take AT LEAST 15 years to break even vs just paying for the guest certificates and not getting point discounts.


I don't  have statistics but I don't think most people who are VIP platinum are 
Very wealthy. From what I read many finance the purchase  at very high interest rates. Yes they will brag about the status and the awesome upgrades  but financially it rarely  makes sense for the average owner. Take that  $60-$70k put it in a long term CD the interest will pay for your upgrades.
 20 years from now  you will still have the money. With a timeshare how much do you think it will be worth?
Dont forget Wyndham can and has changed the  rules many times.


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## antjmar (Dec 15, 2018)

bendadin said:


> I heard $35k for 248k points CWA. That was before they said that I was on the do not sell list. I was looking for a piggyback deed but couldn't find one  Now they are schlepping foreclosed deeds that have loans already attached.
> 
> But after this little game of blocking me from a developer purchase, I'm not so sure that it is wise for me to go any deeper if they decide that I can purchase again.


I agree don't be upset about them blocking you. use the points you have. Maybe buy more resale and just invest the money you saved!


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## bnoble (Dec 15, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Why do Wyndham educated people still buy into the VIP benefits?


I'm sure it's different for everyone, but my theory: it is some combination of timeshare as an "aspirational purchase" and FOMO.


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## ronparise (Dec 15, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I feel like that would take 20-30 years to break even unless you mega rented millions of resale points out on top of the retail ones.
> 
> Why do Wyndham educated people still buy into the VIP benefits? Is it a status thing? Are they just really wealthy? $65,000 is more than most people make in a year....Even renting out all 1,000,000 points with the best weeks reserved would still take AT LEAST 15 years to break even vs just paying for the guest certificates and not getting point discounts.
> 
> The only point (in my mind) that I see it being cost effective is if you actually owned an extra 3,000,000+ resale points at low MF resorts and used VIP benefits to mega rent ALL those points out. But if you did that, wouldn't your account become flagged for abusing the system?




Without the discounts Id find it difficult to pay maintenance fees with rentals, much less recover the initial investment


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 15, 2018)

After all this input, I'm starting to feel that the only contracts worth paying more than $500 for are Disney ones lol.


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 15, 2018)

If I were to use PIC, Holiday Inn deeds count right?


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## tschwa2 (Dec 15, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> If I were to use PIC, Holiday Inn deeds count right?


Not if they are part of HICV (points).   Also you want a 3 bedroom (or 4) with a low MF and I am not sure if any Holiday Inn deeds fit that description.


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 16, 2018)

What brand is resellable (with minimal loss if you know how to create your own quit claim/warranty deed)  that matches the requirements?


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## paxsarah (Dec 16, 2018)

I think the goal is low buy-in, low MFs, 3BR, not in a point system. I don’t think resellable is the goal, except that if it’s a low-cost resale it doesn’t matter if you end up giving it away at the end.


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 16, 2018)

I'm thinking you could buy into VIP gold for $25,000 by buying 200,000 points, then using your 2 free ARP non home resort bookings to book two 2 bedroom deluxes Thanksgiving week at Bonnet Creek and rent them out for $800 profit each and break even in 15 ish years.

I just don't like the idea of having a crappy deed in my name that nobody wants even for free =/


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 16, 2018)

If I did this within the next year, I would only be 45 years old 15 years from now


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## antjmar (Dec 16, 2018)

Or you can invest that money and in 15 years probably double the value. IMO if you have $25k invest it in anything (but not a timeshare).
If you don't have $25k why would you want to finance a timeshare?

If you are just renting the two weeks above you can make about the same profit with a practically free resale account.


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## Braindead (Dec 16, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I'm thinking you could buy into VIP gold for $25,000 by buying 200,000 points, then using your 2 free ARP non home resort bookings to book two 2 bedroom deluxes Thanksgiving week at Bonnet Creek and rent them out for $800 profit each and break even in 15 ish years.
> 
> I just don't like the idea of having a crappy deed in my name that nobody wants even for free =/





cbyrne1174 said:


> If I did this within the next year, I would only be 45 years old 15 years from now


I would never advise buying at any level for the purpose of renting.


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 16, 2018)

I want to use it because I live 45 min from clearwater, an hour from bonnet creek and reunion, and 2 hrs from ocean walk. Without VIP benefits, It's hard to book short stays at those locations because of housekeeping credits. I'm more worried about breaking even over time and still getting to use the membership for the next 40 years.


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## ronparise (Dec 16, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I want to use it because I live 45 min from clearwater, an hour from bonnet creek and reunion, and 2 hrs from ocean walk. Without VIP benefits, It's hard to book short stays at those locations because of housekeeping credits. I'm more worried about breaking even over time and still getting to use the membership for the next 40 years.



you can buy a lot of housekeeping for what a VIP account will cost


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## Richelle (Dec 16, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I want to use it because I live 45 min from clearwater, an hour from bonnet creek and reunion, and 2 hrs from ocean walk. Without VIP benefits, It's hard to book short stays at those locations because of housekeeping credits. I'm more worried about breaking even over time and still getting to use the membership for the next 40 years.



I agree with Ron.  You can buy a lot of housekeeping credits for $65,000. VIP is perceived value.  There is no monetary value.  If you try to justify the costs, it’s not going to happen.  There are tons of better things you can put that money into, but in the end, it’s your money.  Not ours, yours.  Your financial security is your responsibility. If you can afford that kind of money, and you feel there is enough value, then go for it.  Some people place a higher value in extra time to move points forward or Margaritaville access then other people do.  It’s not right or wrong, except when it comes to your financial security.  If you risk your financial security, then obviously it’s a bad choice.  Timeshares are a “luxury” item.  You don’t “need” it, let alone need VIP.  It’s all in how you see it, that determines if there is enough value to justify the upfront expenditure. 

If you are looking for rental income to cover your costs of going VIP, get some resale points, and save up any profits (after maintenance fees, guest certificates, advertising costs, and other fees) to pay for your VIP. Once you hit that $65,000 mark, go buy Platinum (or invest).  Don’t do it the other way around.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Dec 16, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I want to use it because I live 45 min from clearwater, an hour from bonnet creek and reunion, and 2 hrs from ocean walk. Without VIP benefits, It's hard to book short stays at those locations because of housekeeping credits. I'm more worried about breaking even over time and still getting to use the membership for the next 40 years.



OK - I think I see your action plan - if you can get the numbers to work .

You want a weekend " vacation property "
1) that does not have the downside of ownership ( everything from lawn care  to...)
2 ) has flexibility ( 3 close locations + usage elsewhere )
3) Your anticipated usage is 40 years
3) want to " break even - long term

Here is a ( more costly/ less flexible ) comparison I found using Trulia .
A mfg home in the Orlando area - 800-1000 square feet -  $30,000 buy in ( approx)
monthly HOA fee =$ 700 approx.

*******

I agree with Ron Parise - you can buy a lot of housekeeping credits for (the best cost) VIP Platinum .

Since I am a TUG Wyndham forum reader / non owner - I am not completely sure of the points per night cost etc
I would assume 15-20 weekends a year  plus some other usage  - would be over a million points + your housekeeping cost .

I am unsure of the "break even point" in terms of years of use (in this format)  with VIP Platinum  versus owning 1 million  resale points in say CWA
Interesting question -


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## Braindead (Dec 16, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I want to use it because I live 45 min from clearwater, an hour from bonnet creek and reunion, and 2 hrs from ocean walk. Without VIP benefits, It's hard to book short stays at those locations because of housekeeping credits. I'm more worried about breaking even over time and still getting to use the membership for the next 40 years.


Now your considering what’s important!!!
What are the benefits worth in $ that you mentioned? Add in upgrades & discounts
What are benefits that don’t have a $ amount attached worth to you?
How much is it worth to you to pick a view, room, tower, floor, etc ? 

If you can afford it paying cash and you’ve already stayed at the resorts [taking them for the test drive] knowing Wyndham VIP is right for you.
Then I say go for it!!!

 I’ve always said to ignore those about investing the money instead. If they’re right you’re staying home for the next forty years.
If your going to take the trips anyway your looking for the economic way of doing so with the extra space that timeshares have to offer.
The money is gone whether you rent, stay in a motel etc.


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## antjmar (Dec 16, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> What would be the approximate minimum VIP Platinum buy in cost if someone already had two 3 bedrooms to PIC to platinum and just bought the minimum retail points (492,000) to PIC to platinum.
> 
> I know telesales is cheaper, but if I ask them directly, they'll just lie to me.
> 
> I'm just curious if retail purchases are ever at any given point worth it.


Based on what you want to do (unlimited HK) can’t you just get silver VIP?
Keep in mind weekend availability may be limited unless you book way in advance. Also peak time advance booking are 3 nights minimum.
Not familiar with point charts for those resorts you mentioned but I know reunion is high. I think 1 million points won’t go very far...
Maybe get the gold and a bunch of resale points and hope they don’t change the rules...


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## 55plus (Dec 16, 2018)

One thing you can count on is that Wyndham will change the rules to benefit them.


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## ronparise (Dec 16, 2018)

Braindead said:


> Now your considering what’s important!!!
> What are the benefits worth in $ that you mentioned? Add in upgrades & discounts
> What are benefits that don’t have a $ amount attached worth to you?
> How much is it worth to you to pick a view, room, tower, floor, etc ?
> ...



If you are going to compare the cost timeshare vacation accommodations against other vacation accommodations I believe timeshares will usually  turn out to be more expensive. The exceptions would be holidays and  special events


Braindead said:


> Now your considering what’s important!!!
> What are the benefits worth in $ that you mentioned? Add in upgrades & discounts
> What are benefits that don’t have a $ amount attached worth to you?
> How much is it worth to you to pick a view, room, tower, floor, etc ?
> ...



Once you decide you like the Wyndham product and if you have the money, the choice isn’t between buying from the developer or staying home. The choice is retail or resale

Buying on the secondary market will usually be the most cost effective way to enjoy the Wyndham resorts

Consider two owners Mr A and Mr B both have $65000 to commit to vacation ownership and both have plenty of income to pay maintenance fees

Lets assume owner A pays $65000 to get platinum and assume 1 million points and assume he will get every vacation  at a discount

owner B buys 2 million points ($15000 or so) on the resale market to duplicate owner A’s vacation power. And he puts $50000 (65-15=50) in a nice muni bond paying 5% maturing  in 10 years

Over 10 years owner A will spend $60000 mf plus the $65000 buy in or $125000

Owner B will spend $120000 mf plus the $12000 buy in; or $132000 minus the $25000 interest earned on the bond and he will have $50000 when the bond matures

So to compare. Both owners started with $65000. After 10 years both owners have enjoyed the same vacations. Owner A has 1mm points worth about $6000 and owner  B has spent $17000 less over the 10 years and he owns 2mm points worth $12000 and he has $50000 in the bank


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## Braindead (Dec 16, 2018)

ronparise said:


> , the choice isn’t between buying from the developer or staying home.
> 
> Both owners started with $65000. After 10 years both owners have enjoyed the same vacations. Owner A has 1mm points worth about $6000 and owner  B has spent $17000 less over the 10 years and he owns 2mm points worth $12000 and he has $50000 in the bank


The reason I say you’ll stay home if you want to talk about investing money verses money spent on vacations.
If the OP or any owner has 1 million points or more their MFs will be over $4,000 a year. Let’s say total vacay cost $5,000 a year.
The OP is talking 40 years at $5k a year is $200,000. Invest that $5,000 a year you would have atleast $500,000 in 40 years.
Money spent on vacations can’t be compared to investing the money or you’ll stay home and invest the money every time.
It doesn’t matter if you buy a timeshare or stay in a hotel or rent from an owner — the dollars say stay home and go local.

Your using 10 years when the OP is thinking 40 years. That makes a difference when comparing owner A verses owner B.
I’ve always said age makes a big difference in decisions like the OP is making.
I’ve always said the VIP benefits that don’t have a dollar value attached have value. Every owner has to decide for themselves how much those benefits are worth to them.

Some people go on vacation staying at the Ritz Carlton while some stay at Motel 6, who’s wrong? I say personal decision
Some even stay in a tent

I remember Ron P posting that he never stayed in a Presidential unit. I think you could’ve afforded the extra points. Was that a personal decision on what a Presidential unit was worth to you at the same resort?


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## Richelle (Dec 16, 2018)

antjmar said:


> Based on what you want to do (unlimited HK) can’t you just get gold VIP?
> Keep in mind weekend availability may be limited unless you book way in advance. Also peak time advance booking are 3 nights minimum.
> Not familiar with point charts for those resorts you mentioned but I know reunion is high. I think 1 million points won’t go very far...
> Maybe get the gold and a bunch of resale points and hope they don’t change the rules...



285,000 for a week in Reunion during prime season.  Cheaper then a 3 bedroom at Bonnet Creek during prime and the Reunion rooms are bigger and have an extra bath.  A million points will get you 3 rooms.    Reunion is further away from the parks which is probably why it’s cheaper then Bonnet which is less then a mile from Disney’s gates.


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## ronparise (Dec 17, 2018)

Braindead said:


> The reason I say you’ll stay home if you want to talk about investing money verses money spent on vacations.
> If the OP or any owner has 1 million points or more their MFs will be over $4,000 a year. Let’s say total vacay cost $5,000 a year.
> The OP is talking 40 years at $5k a year is $200,000. Invest that $5,000 a year you would have atleast $500,000 in 40 years.
> Money spent on vacations can’t be compared to investing the money or you’ll stay home and invest the money every time.
> ...


I stayed in regular units rather than presidential units for the same reason I drive a Ford and a Honda, rather than a Lincoln and a Acura .... I dont see the difference... Its also why I stayed at Bonnet Creek the week before Christmas rather than Christmas week..

I understand personal choice and i truly dont care how anybody spends their money. Hell, I own two boats. Buying them was a stupid financial decision, and there is no way I can justify them with a dollars and cents argument. but I did it anyway

we are talking about 2 different things here.  You are making a personal choice argument and im only looking at dollars and cents. 

and sure over 40 years I agree that paying developer prices makes sense....A lot can happen in 40 years, I rather have the $50000 in my pocket rather than in Wyndhams even if my annual costs are more


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## paxsarah (Dec 17, 2018)

Richelle said:


> 285,000 for a week in Reunion during prime season.  Cheaper then a 3 bedroom at Bonnet Creek during prime and the Reunion rooms are bigger and have an extra bath.  A million points will get you 3 rooms.    Reunion is further away from the parks which is probably why it’s cheaper then Bonnet which is less then a mile from Disney’s gates.



Inside Disney’s gates (though not on Disney’s land).


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## antjmar (Dec 17, 2018)

Richelle said:


> 285,000 for a week in Reunion during prime season.  Cheaper then a 3 bedroom at Bonnet Creek during prime and the Reunion rooms are bigger and have an extra bath.  A million points will get you 3 rooms.    Reunion is further away from the parks which is probably why it’s cheaper then Bonnet which is less then a mile from Disney’s gates.


Thanks.
The point I was trying to make was 1 million points isn’t much if she wants to rent 2 weeks and for her weekend gateways she will often have to stay 3 nights. 
Like Ron said better off with 2 million resale.


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 17, 2018)

Take your BUY-IN costs, put into a money market and rent units (instead of paying MFs) for a couple of years BEFORE you buy anything. It sounds likes like a wonderful dream, but you will find it might NOT all that wonderful. With a timeshare, you pack and stay for a week or less ... then, pack out and return home.

My avatar picture is of a vacation home I have owned since 1976. Under $250 monthly carrying costs ... but I have to remind myself to get my butt there WAY more often than me thinking "I need to go relax in the mountains". I know NO ONE in the neighborhood (they all have died off or move out) ... and while the area was a VACATION development .. it is now either commuters to NYC or locals. I am the ONLY vacation owner still there ... and I would bet, most think that old lady (me) is in a nursing home .. .after all who in their early 20s buys a vacation home? (Less than a 2.5 hour drive one-way).

As a side note, my rodies did growup up nicely.

PS I did rent it the first 10+ years ... to pay off the mortgage.


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## Richelle (Dec 17, 2018)

paxsarah said:


> Inside Disney’s gates (though not on Disney’s land).



I was quoting what was on the Bonnet creek resort page on the website. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## paxsarah (Dec 17, 2018)

Richelle said:


> I was quoting what was on the Bonnet creek resort page on the website. View attachment 9484



I think they're selling themselves short, because when I say gates I mean those big Disney arches that you have to drive through to get inside the Disney bubble, and WBC is definitely inside the bubble. If they mean the park gates, then you can't get to the car entrance of any of the parks in less than three miles - but that's still closer than many of Disney's own resorts.


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## Braindead (Dec 17, 2018)

ronparise said:


> You are making a personal choice argument and im only looking at dollars and cents.
> 
> and sure over 40 years I agree that paying developer prices makes sense


I agree with those two statements.
There’s definitely two ways to look at it.
I think an individual needs to consider both when making their decision.
Sometimes I think there’s so much ridicule on here on becoming VIP.
Or trying to make people think that there’s no way in hell should they consider becoming VIP and they are fools for even considering it


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 17, 2018)

The more I think about it, the only scenario that makes any sense in my mind is MAYBE buying 49,000 retail points and using PIC to get to VIP Silver since the rules for PIC can change at anytime. Even then, only enroll weeks that you would actually use.

At the moment, I own 329,000 points that averages to $5.7/per 1k AFTER the program free is included, and spent only about $300 more than the cost of the points already loaded on the contracts.


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## Richelle (Dec 17, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> The more I think about it, the only scenario that makes any sense in my mind is MAYBE buying 49,000 retail points and using PIC to get to VIP Silver since the rules for PIC can change at anytime. Even then, only enroll weeks that you would actually use.
> 
> At the moment, I own 329,000 points that averages to $5.7/per 1k AFTER the program free is included, and spent only about $300 more than the cost of the points already loaded on the contracts.



I know people who had weeks enrolled before 2005 could and still can, have unlimited PICs enrolled, but they would have to buy more points every time.  Today, you can only do two.  They may eventually change it to one, or reduce the amount of points each week is worth.  If they do the either, they would likely grandfather the existing PIC users to the old rules.  If enrolling Your week into PIC is important to you, I would consider doing it now. I have no reason to believe any changes are coming, any time soon, but they likely will sometime down the road. 

BTW, if you can swing it, I’d recommend picking up an additional fixed/float week on eBay and enroll that into PIC as well.  You’ll need to buy 98,000 points to enroll two, but they will be in now before they have a chance to change the rules.  The minimum buy in could increase later one when point prices are higher.  However, If it will put you in a tight spot financially, it’s not worth it.  If you do get a second one, make sure it’s a three bedroom, with low MF, in a location you want.  Gold and silver crowns are the best town because they are nicer.  Twin Rivers in Colorado is less then $600 a year for a three bedroom.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## HitchHiker71 (Dec 17, 2018)

Richelle said:


> I know people who had weeks enrolled before 2005 could and still can, have unlimited PICs enrolled, but they would have to buy more points every time.  Today, you can only do two.  They may eventually change it to one, or reduce the amount of points each week is worth.  If they do the either, they would likely grandfather the existing PIC users to the old rules.  If enrolling Your week into PIC is important to you, I would consider doing it now. I have no reason to believe any changes are coming, any time soon, but they likely will sometime down the road.
> 
> BTW, if you can swing it, I’d recommend picking up an additional fixed/float week on eBay and enroll that into PIC as well.  You’ll need to buy 98,000 points to enroll two, but they will be in now before they have a chance to change the rules.  The minimum buy in could increase later one when point prices are higher.  However, If it will put you in a tight spot financially, it’s not worth it.  If you do get a second one, make sure it’s a three bedroom, with low MF, in a location you want.  Gold and silver crowns are the best town because they are nicer.  Twin Rivers in Colorado is less then $600 a year for a three bedroom.
> 
> ...



I had a sales weasel at Governor’s Green over this past weekend tell me that both the PIC program and the VIP program levels will be changed in the near future.  He kept referring to grandfathering me now as the only way to ensure I can keep my VIP levels.  I kept asking for details on what exactly he meant, he said my PICs could convert to RCI points at which point I would lose my VIP, so best to buy 508k developer points now to lock in my VIP benefits.  Uh, no thanks! 


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Dec 17, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I had a sales weasel at Governor’s Green over this past weekend tell me that both the PIC program and the VIP program levels will be .....
> I kept asking for details on what exactly he meant, he said my PICs could convert to RCI points at which point I would lose my VIP, so best to buy 508k developer points now to lock in my VIP benefits.  Uh, no thanks!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The only thing that was lost - was his dream 
of $$ commission .


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## Richelle (Dec 17, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I had a sales weasel at Governor’s Green over this past weekend tell me that both the PIC program and the VIP program levels will be changed in the near future.  He kept referring to grandfathering me now as the only way to ensure I can keep my VIP levels.  I kept asking for details on what exactly he meant, he said my PICs could convert to RCI points at which point I would lose my VIP, so best to buy 508k developer points now to lock in my VIP benefits.  Uh, no thanks!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I would imagine they use a similar tactic with anyone who uses PIC. Surprisingly, the only time a sales person mentioned PIC to me, told me I was not getting the full allotment of points that the PIC was eligible for.  To my surprise, he was correct.  Obviously he tried to tell me the only way to fix it was to buy more points.  I declined and owner care fixed it for free.  So I got more points and was grandfathered to Silver VIP (which I should have had from the beginning), and didn’t have to spend a dime.  The one and only time an update actually provided me with any benefit. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## HitchHiker71 (Dec 17, 2018)

Richelle said:


> I would imagine they use a similar tactic with anyone who uses PIC. Surprisingly, the only time a sales person mentioned PIC to me, told me I was not getting the full allotment of points that the PIC was eligible for.  To my surprise, he was correct.  Obviously he tried to tell me the only way to fix it was to buy more points.  I declined and owner care fixed it for free.  So I got more points and was grandfathered to Silver VIP (which I should have had from the beginning), and didn’t have to spend a dime.  The one and only time an update actually provided me with any benefit.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



The funny part to me is that every update starts out with a public 30 minute presentation where whomever does the presentation gets up and tells everyone about how Wyndham works and about the various programs that many people aren’t aware of.  The guy at the GG presentation actually brought up both VIP and PIC, specifically telling the entire group the various benefits for each program.

Then I get to the sales manager, who then tells me that I’m going to lose these great benefits somehow.  So first they tell you how exciting these programs are, and then they end up using scare tactics and telling you effectively that these programs could change at any time and I’m in danger of losing the program benefits.  Well which one is it Wyndham? 

As long as I continue to get free stuff for an hour of my time, that’s all that matters to me.  


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## drepublic (Dec 18, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> After all this input, I'm starting to feel that the only contracts worth paying more than $500 for are Disney ones lol.



I've thought about Disney DVC but honestly I think I'd rather just rent points from a DVC owner with priority booking at the resort I would prefer to go to (Beach Club!!!). 

Disney for me would be rare as my boys are 11 and 8 but for the price of a one bedroom for a week at Beachclub Hotel I could rent a one or two bedroom Villa from an existing DVC Owner ($14'ish or maybe less per point) provided I went off peak etc.  I have friends who are DVC owners who I'm sure will get tired of Disney soon enough and will want to go somewhere else.  I mentioned the idea of us trading points sort of speak where I book for them anywhere they want to go in Wyndham and they get me a week at my favorite Disney resort.  And on this trade I'll swing the points more in their favor given my cost to rent DVC Points for a week versus my cost of maintenance on my existing points.  Say they want Clearwater Presidential Suite Spring Break I could book that week, and then go to Beachclub 1 bedroom a week off peak for them.

Just a thought.  Network with DVC owners who are tired of Disney (or kids are grown) and want to go other places, or find people on these forums who are owners of points at the resort you like for booking priority and rent their points.  This way you avoid the upfront cost and still get that Disney vacation.


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## grab (Dec 18, 2018)

Richelle said:


> You can enroll up to two PIC weeks for a maximum for 508,000 points (two 3 bedrooms).  Then you have to buy 492,000 points to reach Platinum.  The more points you buy, the bigger the discount.  I say offer $125 per 1,000.  They may counter with $140, but you can probably squeeze out $135 out of them.  So platinum at that price will run you just under $67,000.  I believe telesales is offering piggyback deeds which may reduce your overall cost.  Now the question is, even if you get it for $40,000, is platinum worth that much to you?


Piggyback deeds? Are you referring to conversion of fixed weeks or something else?


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## Richelle (Dec 18, 2018)

grab said:


> Piggyback deeds? Are you referring to conversion of fixed weeks or something else?



They sell you one deed, and throw another one in with it, for a much cheaper price.  It’s usually higher maintenance fee resorts.  I remember one person being offered a 259,000 for $12,000.  Another was offered 105,000 for $10,000 if they bought 105,000 for $23,000. So $33,000 total for 210,000 points. That would have worked out to $157 per 1,000 points.  Higher then I would be willing to pay. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## grab (Dec 18, 2018)

Richelle said:


> They sell you one deed, and throw another one in with it, for a much cheaper price.  It’s usually higher maintenance fee resorts.  I remember one person being offered a 259,000 for $12,000.  Another was offered 105,000 for $10,000 if they bought 105,000 for $23,000. So $33,000 total for 210,000 points. That would have worked out to $110 per 1,000 points.  Cheaper then the cheapest price I’ve seen lately but still higher then I would be willing to pay.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thanks!


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## bendadin (Dec 18, 2018)

If you can find one. Right now they are pushing out foreclosed deeds with loans attached


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## HitchHiker71 (Dec 18, 2018)

bendadin said:


> If you can find one. Right now they are pushing out foreclosed deeds with loans attached



Where can we find out more info on these types of deals?


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## wjappraise (Dec 18, 2018)

Richelle said:


> So $33,000 total for 210,000 points. That would have worked out to $110 per 1,000 points.  Cheaper then the cheapest price I’ve seen lately but still higher then I would be willing to pay.



Kind of a moot point, but $33,000 for 210,000 points actually works out to $157 per 1,000 points.


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## Richelle (Dec 18, 2018)

wjappraise said:


> Kind of a moot point, but $33,000 for 210,000 points actually works out to $157 per 1,000 points.



You’re right. Got my numbers turned around. Fixed. 


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## Richelle (Dec 18, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Where can we find out more info on these types of deals?



Telesales was supposed to start offering them. I heard Edisto does foreclosed deeds. I am not sure where else you might find a Piggy back feed. 


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## markb53 (Dec 20, 2018)

I was offered a foreclosed deed at both Edisto and Flagstaff. In both cases I would have had to make a retail purchase in order to get access to the foreclosed deeds.


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## Richelle (Dec 20, 2018)

markb53 said:


> I was offered a foreclosed deed at both Edisto and Flagstaff. In both cases I would have had to make a retail purchase in order to get access to the foreclosed deeds.



Makes sense.  They probably do not make as much commission.  Plus that’s usually how they roll.  If you want something, it requires you to buy points.  Did they give you an idea on how much that foreclosed deed was and for how many points?  I’m not looking to buy a foreclosed deed.  Just curious.  


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## Silverdollar (Dec 20, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Makes sense.  They probably do not make as much commission.  Plus that’s usually how they roll.  If you want something, it requires you to buy points.  Did they give you an idea on how much that foreclosed deed was and for how many points?  I’m not looking to buy a foreclosed deed.  Just curious.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I am a VIP Platinum owner and have been with Wyndham (formerly Fairfield) for 35 years. Three years ago, I purchased 64,000 developer points at a Wyndham resort, and at that same sitting purchased an additional 413,000 "foreclosed deed" (UDI) points (for $16,500 or $41/1000, with MF at $4.54) that counted as developer points from Wyndham. I would not have purchased the 64k if they had not been willing to do the 413k for that price and allow them to be counted as developer points and get VIP Platinum. (I already had two PIC weeks: one worth 254,000 points, and another worth 77,000, that counted toward VIP status). When these points were added to a couple other purchases I made a long time ago it gave me VIP Platinum. I have since put everything into CWA which provides me ARP at @70 Wyn resorts.

When I made the 64k and 413k purchases, I learned that there were four sales centers at Wyndham resorts across the chain: Ocean Ridge, Flagstaff, Fairfield Glade, and Pagosa Springs. Those four sales centers not only sold foreclosures for units at their resort, but also other Wyndham resorts in their region. I cannot speak for three of the sales centers, but the location where I purchased, allowed me to see several pages of listings in their region and allowed me to choose the one(s) I wanted. The list included both UDI and deeded weeks.


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## Richelle (Dec 20, 2018)

Silverdollar said:


> I am a VIP Platinum owner and have been with Wyndham (formerly Fairfield) for 35 years. Three years ago, I purchased 64,000 developer points at a Wyndham resort, and at that same sitting purchased an additional 413,000 "foreclosed deed" (UDI) points (for $16,500 or $41/1000, with MF at $4.54) that counted as developer points from Wyndham. I would not have purchased the 64k if they had not been willing to do the 413k for that price and allow them to be counted as developer points and get VIP Platinum. (I already had two PIC weeks: one worth 254,000 points, and another worth 77,000, that counted toward VIP status). When these points were added to a couple other purchases I made a long time ago it gave me VIP Platinum. I have since put everything into CWA which provides me ARP at @70 Wyn resorts.
> 
> When I made the 64k and 413k purchases, I learned that there were four sales centers at Wyndham resorts across the chain: Ocean Ridge, Flagstaff, Fairfield Glade, and Pagosa Springs. Those four sales centers not only sold foreclosures for units at their resort, but also other Wyndham resorts in their region. I cannot speak for three of the sales centers, but the location where I purchased, allowed me to see several pages of listings in their region and allowed me to choose the one(s) I wanted. The list included both UDI and deeded weeks.



That’s great info.  Thank you.  I’ll pass it along to someone looking to buy retail for that reason.  


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## bendadin (Dec 20, 2018)

Silverdollar said:


> I am a VIP Platinum owner and have been with Wyndham (formerly Fairfield) for 35 years. Three years ago, I purchased 64,000 developer points at a Wyndham resort, and at that same sitting purchased an additional 413,000 "foreclosed deed" (UDI) points (for $16,500 or $41/1000, with MF at $4.54) that counted as developer points from Wyndham. I would not have purchased the 64k if they had not been willing to do the 413k for that price and allow them to be counted as developer points and get VIP Platinum. (I already had two PIC weeks: one worth 254,000 points, and another worth 77,000, that counted toward VIP status). When these points were added to a couple other purchases I made a long time ago it gave me VIP Platinum. I have since put everything into CWA which provides me ARP at @70 Wyn resorts.
> 
> When I made the 64k and 413k purchases, I learned that there were four sales centers at Wyndham resorts across the chain: Ocean Ridge, Flagstaff, Fairfield Glade, and Pagosa Springs. Those four sales centers not only sold foreclosures for units at their resort, but also other Wyndham resorts in their region. I cannot speak for three of the sales centers, but the location where I purchased, allowed me to see several pages of listings in their region and allowed me to choose the one(s) I wanted. The list included both UDI and deeded weeks.



Good to know. If I ever make it off the Do Not Sell list, I'll be on the road again to one of these resorts.


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## Sandy VDH (Dec 20, 2018)

Silverdollar said:


> I am a VIP Platinum owner and have been with Wyndham (formerly Fairfield) for 35 years. Three years ago, I purchased 64,000 developer points at a Wyndham resort, and at that same sitting purchased an additional 413,000 "foreclosed deed" (UDI) points (for $16,500 or $41/1000, with MF at $4.54) that counted as developer points from Wyndham.



But how much did they charge you for the 64K?  I assume the $16500 was the 413K.


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## HitchHiker71 (Dec 20, 2018)

Sandy VDH said:


> But how much did they charge you for the 64K?  I assume the $16500 was the 413K.



IIRC SD paid around 10K for the 64k developer points at the time, but I’m sure he will chime in with the exact amount soon.  His approach is what I’m trying to replicate to obtain permanent VIPP at some point.  

SD, curious how you “converted” to CWA as part of this process?  Were the 64k developer points CWA points?  Or are you saying you somehow consolidated contracts for all points into CWA?


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## Silverdollar (Dec 20, 2018)

Sandy VDH said:


> But how much did they charge you for the 64K?  I assume the $16500 was the 413K.


$10k for the 64k points. Yes, $16,500 for the 413k.


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## Silverdollar (Dec 20, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> IIRC SD paid around 10K for the 64k developer points at the time, but I’m sure he will chime in with the exact amount soon.  His approach is what I’m trying to replicate to obtain permanent VIPP at some point.
> 
> SD, curious how you “converted” to CWA as part of this process?  Were the 64k developer points CWA points?  Or are you saying you somehow consolidated contracts for all points into CWA?
> 
> ...


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## Silverdollar (Dec 20, 2018)

I consolidated contracts to CWA at a later time with Wy. telesales.


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## OutSkiing (Dec 21, 2018)

A couple of years ago we were offered a foreclosed contract at Flagstaff.  This was after we acted bored through all their attempts to sell us a full retail CWA contract. The whole conversation had come to an end and the foreclosed contract was thrown out of the blue as some kind of rare deal we could get for being at the right place at the right time. It did not seem to have the strings attached of buying a retail contract but they might have waited until we showed some interest before mentioning that detail.

Bob


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## HitchHiker71 (Dec 21, 2018)

OutSkiing said:


> A couple of years ago we were offered a foreclosed contract at Flagstaff.  This was after we acted bored through all their attempts to sell us a full retail CWA contract. The whole conversation had come to an end and the foreclosed contract was thrown out of the blue as some kind of rare deal we could get for being at the right place at the right time. It did not seem to have the strings attached of buying a retail contract but they might have waited until we showed some interest before mentioning that detail.
> 
> Bob



Do you recall the cost details of the foreclosed contract?  Curious.


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## markb53 (Dec 22, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Makes sense.  They probably do not make as much commission.  Plus that’s usually how they roll.  If you want something, it requires you to buy points.  Did they give you an idea on how much that foreclosed deed was and for how many points?  I’m not looking to buy a foreclosed deed.  Just curious.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


At flagstaff the the forclosure was 105k converted fixed week for $3500. At Edisto the forclosure was a myrtle beach resort 210k UDI points for $7500


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## HitchHiker71 (Dec 22, 2018)

markb53 said:


> At flagstaff the the forclosure was 105k converted fixed week for $3500. At Edisto the forclosure was a myrtle beach resort 210k UDI points for $7500



So $34-36/1000 points for the piggyback contracts.  Certainly much better than retail developer points.  I’m assuming they would allow you to count these piggyback contract purchases as developer points yes?

How recently did you receive these offers?  I’m thinking of reaching out to the local resort sales managers for additional guidance if this is still an option today.

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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 22, 2018)

Can you enroll a PIC week with a foreclosure deed?


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## OutSkiing (Dec 22, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Do you recall the cost details of the foreclosed contract?  Curious.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it was priced in the $35 per thousand range. Close to 200k points.

Bob


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## HitchHiker71 (Dec 22, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Can you enroll a PIC week with a foreclosure deed?



Do you mean using the piggyback contract as the required developer points purchase contract?  I would be surprised if that was possible.  Usually you have to purchase genuine developer points in addition to the either the PIC contract or the piggyback contract from what I’ve seen.


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 22, 2018)

No. buying 49,000 points via telesales and adding a 3 bedroom PIC to it, then buying a 154,000 points foreclosure deed and enrolling another 3 bedroom PIC to it and becoming VIP gold for under $20,000.


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## capital city (Dec 23, 2018)

It looks like you need a genuine developer puchase for each pic week and possibly with the foreclosure contract as well. I would be looking at platinum if that is the case.


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 23, 2018)

So can you buy 98,000 points via telesales, then enroll your two 3 bedroom PIC weeks, then buy a 105,000 point foreclosure deed to get to to 711,000 points (VIP Gold)?


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## tschwa2 (Dec 23, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> So can you buy 98,000 points via telesales, then enroll your two 3 bedroom PIC weeks, then buy a 105,000 point foreclosure deed to get to to 711,000 points (VIP Gold)?


Not if telesales aren't offering the foreclosure deeds.  If only the sales centers are offering those, they won't care that you just bought from telesales.  They want their commission so they will likely have the requirement that you buy a minimum of full price points with the foreclosed deeds unless the foreclosed deeds aren't a big discount over full price.


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## HitchHiker71 (Dec 23, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> So can you buy 98,000 points via telesales, then enroll your two 3 bedroom PIC weeks, then buy a 105,000 point foreclosure deed to get to to 711,000 points (VIP Gold)?



From what I can gather telesales is not able to offer piggyback deeds yet.  You would have to go through one of the four resorts that can sell piggyback deeds IIRC, those are:

Ocean Ridge
Flagstaff
Pagosa Springs 
Fairfield Glade

I plan to call both telesales and a couple of these resorts next week and see if I can chase down piggyback options.  


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## Silverdollar (Dec 23, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> So can you buy 98,000 points via telesales, then enroll your two 3 bedroom PIC weeks, then buy a 105,000 point foreclosure deed to get to to 711,000 points (VIP Gold)?


In '05, I made a developer purchase and enrolled my two PIC weeks to become VIP Gold. Three years ago, I made another developer purchase of 64k points that allowed me to buy a 410k foreclosure at one of the four Wyn Sales Centers to become VIP Platinum. At that time, I learned that I could make another foreclosure purchase if done within 30 days of that purchase, so after returning home, I made another foreclosure purchase without having to make another developer purchase.

For me, I had to make two developer purchases; first one to bring in my PIC weeks (in '05), and second one to make a foreclosure purchase (@3 years ago). Could I have done everything with just one developer purchase? I don't know because I wasn't at one of the four sales centers when I made the purchase in '05 and I didn't know about foreclosures until 3 years ago.

Let's assume for a moment that the answer to your question is "yes". That would be a "game changer". Everyone could become VIP Gold for $20,000, or less. 

Now, let's assume that the answer is "no". What then? You could still make the 98,000 developer points purchase via telesales and enroll your two 3 BR PIC weeks. Then, you could make a small developer purchase from one of the four sales center and connect it with a foreclosure purchase. For me, it was a 64k developer points purchase at a cost of $10k in order to add a foreclosure deed. Under this scenario, the end result would cost @$30,000 to become VIP Gold. (98k (Dev. pts) + 508k(PICS) + 64k (Dev. pts) + 105k(Foreclosure) = 775k

Or, you could purchase a foreclosure deed worth 335k pts (instead of the 105k) and become VIP Platinum for an additional $12-15k.

I will be vacationing at one of the four sales centers next week and can investigate further. I'll just have to force myself to go to an "update". Ugh!


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## bendadin (Dec 23, 2018)

Perhaps you need to start a list of who wants to buy. A salesperson might come away with 5-10 sales with that list.  Bargaining power.


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## markb53 (Dec 26, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> So $34-36/1000 points for the piggyback contracts.  Certainly much better than retail developer points.  I’m assuming they would allow you to count these piggyback contract purchases as developer points yes?
> 
> How recently did you receive these offers?  I’m thinking of reaching out to the local resort sales managers for additional guidance if this is still an option today.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yes they would count as a developer purchase. It was about 3 years ago that the offer was made at flagstaff and 2 years ago at Edisto.


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## Silverdollar (Dec 29, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> So can you buy 98,000 points via telesales, then enroll your two 3 bedroom PIC weeks, then buy a 105,000 point foreclosure deed to get to to 711,000 points (VIP Gold)?


I attended an "update" today at one of the Wyn sales centers that offers the foreclosure deeds and asked your question. First, the sales rep said that 98,000 pts via telesales is no longer enough pts to enroll two 3 bedroom PIC weeks. He said the same purchase of developer pts would allow you to also buy the "foreclosure deed", but whatever # pts you buy with the foreclosure deed, you would have to buy the same # developer pts (on the front end). Finally, he said the foreclosure deeds are very limited and being phasing out altogether.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Dec 29, 2018)

Hi Silverdollar ,
That sounds like good information ,  once you filter out the sales spin .
Foreclosed deeds being limited - sure / being phased out altogether -  maybe some day .

As a TUG member - I thank you for taking one for the team ; and going to the sales presentation , so other owners can learn .


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 29, 2018)

lol I talked to telesales and flagstaff. Telesales quoted me 14k for 98,000 points to enroll 2 PICs (and get to VIP silver) and Flagstaff quoted me 21k for 105,000 developer points + 105,000 foreclosure (to get to VIP gold).


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## Braindead (Dec 29, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> lol I talked to telesales and flagstaff. Telesales quoted me 14k for 98,000 points to enroll 2 PICs (and get to VIP silver) and Flagstaff quoted me 21k for 105,000 developer points + 105,000 foreclosure (to get to VIP gold).


Telesales and 2 PICs will be your cheapest way to VIP Gold. Your quoting $35,000 involving Flagstaff.
You’ll be able to enroll 2 PICs with a 200,000 CWA point contract purchase VIP Gold for under $30,000


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## bendadin (Dec 29, 2018)

cbyrne1174 said:


> lol I talked to telesales and flagstaff. Telesales quoted me 14k for 98,000 points to enroll 2 PICs (and get to VIP silver) and Flagstaff quoted me 21k for 105,000 developer points + 105,000 foreclosure (to get to VIP gold).



I would take that Flagstaff deal in a minute. But they won't let me. Something about renting and resale points.


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## Howdy_TX (Dec 30, 2018)

i'm researching Club Wyndham Access..... 
what exactly is PIC ?
why would Platinum be better?
Platinum can only reached via Wyndham sales right? cannot be transferred if purchase via resale of Club Wyndham Access? 
what is Deeded vs Access ? I thought Deeded can only use the resort that deeded at or for a fee to be exchanged to other properties (as long as that other property deeded owner wants to exchange as well?)

thanks


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