# Marriott making it impossible to buy/sell resales



## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

Would like to buy Marriott resales, really would, but every year, Marriott gets more greedy and devalues their own product while simultaneously artificially raising prices. From ~$10 a point a few years ago (at developer cost) to an artificially inflated ~$15 a point today (with absolutely NO market driving the increases except for corporate greed).

If timeshares are deeded real estate and the original purchaser already paid the developer costs. Why does Marriott make it impossible to resell and get back any of your investment? Hyatt, as an example, never did this, it was simply a few hundred $$$ for the transfer fees and the buyer retained all the value. Marriott takes all privileges away from those who buy resales, except the right to stay at home resort.

Deeded timeshares MF go up 3-5% every year like clockwork, often without any precipitating expenses or event driving them -- other than Marriott charging more management fees. Further when Marriott rents deeded timeshares, only 10-15% of these monies are returned to the timeshare system to offset actual costs, while Marriott pockets 85-90% for fees. If 85-90% was instead returned to the timeshare system, MF would actual remain fairly constant.

Points are also supposed to be real estate, but Marriott makes it even harder to resell points and get back any value. Marriott now charges an artificial rate of $3 per point to register resale points (up from an already exorbitant $2 previously). With points, owners are left paying MF on unsold property in the trust, when Marriott would have otherwise have had to pay these expenses. Point MF which were at inception more than deeded timeshares (because points owners are paying MF on property no one yet owns) and have only increased over time. A whopping .58 per point, on the way to .60 for 2020. 

With points, two things would dramatically reduce the per point MF. #1 Getting Marriott to foot the bill (as it should have all along) for unused/unsold property in the land trust), #2 Reducing the exorbitant management fees Marriott charges owners. These are examples, there are more of course, but these are some of the reasons Marriott (and other timeshare companies) went to a points-based system. Another: No HOAs for oversight of Marriott mismanagement and overcharges. 

Left unsaid another reason for the move to points: Marriott literally has a license to sell AIR (points backed by no tangible property). Marriott can do this because owner use their points for non-property stays: tours, cruises, etc which are the worst use of points as all you are getting back in value terms are your maintenance fees (and completely omitting all the up front monies paid in). 

Speaking of upfront costs: Having sat in on quite a few sales pitches, every salesman always tells my family members to forget about the monies they paid upfront and only calculate the cost based on their maintenance fees. As in "your 7-night Hawaii stay is only costing you $300 a night, your saving 60%)" "but what about the money paid upfront" i say. "you've already paid that and got back the value in previous stays" "point of fact: no we havent, in fact, when I calculate all up front costs, MF, and other fees, were paying $800 a night and we will continue paying $800 a night because the MF never go away and only increase over time" "no no that's not how it works, you dont understand the system." REAL CONVERSATION, REAL ACTUAL COSTS.

Points, even at, 50% of developer costs are way overvalued. Primarily because Marriott artificially sets and raises the pricing, but also because Marriott not only rolled out points in the middle of the largest economic downturn in modern history but had the gall to actually inflate point pricing 150% relative to current deeded pricing. AND people lined up to pay it. Head shake.

So my long rant on all this... Looking forward to hearing yours as well as opposing views.


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## SeaDoc (Apr 20, 2019)

Appreciate your cathartic assessment.  However, I own 5 platinum weeks totaling 20k in destination points every year, which I get enormous value as compared with maintenance fees paid.  Further, in the event I wish to sell my weeks back to Marriott, they will buy them at a fairly good price, given that I’ve used the heck out of them.  So, all in all, I’m a happy owner.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

SeaDoc said:


> Appreciate your cathartic assessment.  However, I own 5 platinum weeks totaling 20k in destination points every year, which I get enormous value as compared with maintenance fees paid.  Further, in the event I wish to sell my weeks back to Marriott, they will buy them at a fairly good price, given that I’ve used the heck out of them.  So, all in all, I’m a happy owner.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Marriott doesn't buy back timeshares... It gives you a deed in lieu of your MF and you give up your timeshare rights--in the best of circumstances. In the worst, you or your family carry the MF for years until you finally sell them or get a deed in lieu. 

If you have 5 platinum weeks for 20K points and were lucky enough to have bought resales before the April 2016 deadline which turned off the right to enroll deeded timeshares into the points program, you are a lucky man. If you paid full developer costs, I'm not so sure you are lucky at all.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

Incidentally, when Marriott gets properties back like that it pockets the profits as part of its management fees then resells the property again and again taking the lion's share of the monies for management fees. It's why MF increases when in fact they should be holding steady


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Marriott doesn't buy back timeshares... It gives you a deed in lieu of your MF and you give up your timeshare rights--in the best of circumstances. In the worst, you or your family carry the MF for years until you finally sell them or get a deed in lieu.
> 
> If you have 5 platinum weeks for 20K points and were lucky enough to have bought resales before the April 2016 deadline which turned off the right to enroll deeded timeshares into the points program, you are a lucky man. If you paid full developer costs, I'm not so sure you are lucky at all.



Actually Marriott does buy back timeshares. I sold about 5 back to them a few years ago. You always have options. If you don't want your units any longer, you can look at reselling them on Redweek. 

Unfortunately, Marriott is a business and they will do everything in their ability to make money from their clients, that's capitalism. Do I necessarily agree with it ? No but either you go with what they're packaging or sell out.

I personally still find value in their weeks system. Points, I have a hard time justifying thus have not gone down that route. 

The actual deadline was 2010. Any weeks prior to that time can be enrolled. Any after that time would need a points purchase to enroll them.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

I've never seen in point of actual fact that Marriott bought back anything and I've talked with thousands of current/former owners on other sites. If you say they did, you'd be the first I've ever heard of in 25 years.

Marriott doesnt make money for its clients--Marriott makes money for its executives and shareholders. Marriott does not make money for the benefit of timeshare owners.

On the resale side, I saw two extensions for the deadline. One was in 2013 and one was in 2016. Few resale buyers are lucky enough to get offered to enroll wit a points purchase--typically only after a number of hard sells dont work to get you to open your checkbook and then only at certain times, under certain conditions, with certain stipulations that ensure you still pay a premium.

If you bought resales, I'm sure you are very happy with your purchases, who wouldnt be when they end up with 20K points and Chairman's club status. But then you said also you haven't gone down that route? So you do or dont have points and Chairmans club status?

If you bought early at pre-construction rates, I imagine you are also happy. Not everyone did though. Some just plunked down the current cost for a Hawaii week in points ($120,000 and didn't know they were overpaying 400% compared to actual value).


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## bazzap (Apr 20, 2019)

Quadmaniac said:


> Actually Marriott does buy back timeshares. I sold about 5 back to them a few years ago. You always have options. If you don't want your units any longer, you can look at reselling them on Redweek.
> 
> Unfortunately, Marriott is a business and they will do everything in their ability to make money from their clients, that's capitalism. Do I necessarily agree with it ? No but either you go with what they're packaging or sell out.
> 
> ...


2010 was the cut off date for enrolling US / Caribbean weeks
2012 for European weeks
2016 for Phuket weeks.


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## SeaDoc (Apr 20, 2019)

Marriott has offered to purchase two of my platinum shadow ridge weeks, if I so choose.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

Thanks also for getting the conversation started. Really do want all viewpoints!!


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

bazzap said:


> 2010 was the cut off date for enrolling US / Caribbean weeks
> 2012 for European weeks
> 2016 for Phuket weeks.



exactly, thanks barry


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## VacationForever (Apr 20, 2019)

SeaDoc said:


> Marriott has offered to purchase two of my platinum shadow ridge weeks, if I so choose.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When was this?  They are not doing so for the past 2 years.


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## VacationForever (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> With points, two things would dramatically reduce the per point MF. #1 Getting Marriott to foot the bill (as it should have all along) for unused/unsold property in the land trust),




Do you know for a fact that MVC does not pay MF on unsold points in the trust?


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## TheTimeTraveler (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Would like to buy Marriott resales, really would, but every year, Marriott gets more greedy and devalues their own product while simultaneously artificially raising prices. From ~$10 a point a few years ago (at developer cost) to an artificially inflated ~$15 a point today (with absolutely NO market driving the increases except for corporate greed).
> 
> If timeshares are deeded real estate and the original purchaser already paid the developer costs. Why does Marriott make it impossible to resell and get back any of your investment? Hyatt, as an example, never did this, it was simply a few hundred $$$ for the transfer fees and the buyer retained all the value. Marriott takes all privileges away from those who buy resales, except the right to stay at home resort.
> 
> ...






Clearly the Marriott program is not for you.....  Maybe Hyatt is a better fit.




.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

NYSE: VAC, go into the financials. When current owners are in arrears Marriott, passes these costs on to the owners as well as part of the MF. There are other examples.... drill down


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

Lots of hidden expenses, costs and fees are being passed on to owners in the MF. At the same time, lots of monies collected from rental, etc dont make it back as credits to offset MF because Marriott milks them with exorbitant fees.

The points system has made it even easier to pass on these hidden costs and fees to owners rather Marriott itself having to pay these.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> Clearly the Marriott program is not for you..... Maybe Hyatt is a better fit.



For me personally, maybe, but I have many family members in Marriott, so as I've said 25 years of experience with the system. Collectively they've spent SEVERAL fortunes in costs, fees, etc


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## bazzap (Apr 20, 2019)

I was going to ask the very same question.
MVC have certainly always paid the MF on unsold weeks inventory and still do where the Trust is unable to own any inventory e.g. in Europe.


VacationForever said:


> Do you know for a fact that MVC does not pay MF on unsold points in the trust?[/QUOT


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

bazzap said:


> I was going to ask the very same question.
> MVC have certainly always paid the MF on unsold weeks inventory and still do where the Trust is unable to own any inventory e.g. in Europe.



A background in accounting helps to see where the shells are being pushed around. You also need to look at NASDAQ: MAR, in the financials.

An interesting note. Put your current MF cost into a savings calculator at 5% with $0 deposits for 20 years to see where you'll be in terms of costs and what expense you wll be passing on to your family. Make sure to only compound interest annually. Here's one:

https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/simple-savings-calculator.aspx

$2500 in MF in todays dollars turns into $6633 MF in 20 years.
$12000 in MF in todays dollars turns in $31889 MF in 20 years.

Also dont confuse DEEDED vs land trust. The trust is points and YES Europe wont let Marriott do magical shell games YET.

_-obviously not intended to be a source of advice or financial information_


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## VacationForever (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Lots of hidden expenses, costs and fees are being passed on to owners in the MF. At the same time, lots of monies collected from rental, etc dont make it back as credits to offset MF because Marriott milks them with exorbitant fees.
> 
> The points system has made it even easier to pass on these hidden costs and fees to owners rather Marriott itself having to pay these.


Your post is not data driven.  While it is true that owners' MF include paying for collections/MF in arrears, it is not true that owners' MF cover unsold trust inventory.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> Your post is not data driven. While it is true that owners' MF include paying for collections/MF in arrears, it is not true that owners' MF cover unsold trust inve



Really, truly depends on how you are interpreting the passed on costs, fees and expenses, and like I said only the financials reveal this and of course, each properties reports.

As an example, resources are needed to maintain unsold inventory properties. How otherwise are these resources being paid for? Other costs fees expenses are in the MF as well

_-obviously not intended to be a source of advice or financial information_


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## VacationForever (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> An interesting note. Put your current MF cost into a savings calculator at 5% with $0 deposits for 20 years to see where you'll be in terms of costs and what expense you wll be passing on to your family. Make sure to only compound interest annually. Here's one:
> 
> https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/simple-savings-calculator.aspx
> 
> ...


...and so do healthcare cost, hotel rates etc go up.  I used to pay 5 cents for candy and now it is a dollar.


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## jerseyfinn (Apr 20, 2019)

Quadmaniac said:


> Actually Marriott does buy back timeshares. I sold about 5 back to them a few years ago. You always have options. If you don't want your units any longer, you can look at reselling them on Redweek.
> 
> Unfortunately, Marriott is a business and they will do everything in their ability to make money from their clients, that's capitalism. Do I necessarily agree with it ? No but either you go with what they're packaging or sell out.



Well said. Yes Marriott does indeed buy back weeks, but only select weeks  such as high season sought after resorts  where the Trust wants more inventory or MVC sees a chance to flip a week for profit. As Cal Coolidge said, " the business of America is business." & Marriott's unapologetic about that  

Next to new car depreciation, timeshare is the next most devalued purchase one can make. So why do it? It comes down to how much one values destination travel & how they strategize.

---


Consider Marriott TS history beginning in  late 80s, gaining momentum late 90s & a thereafter hot, expanding market until 2007:

initially sold as a linear, deeded week product ( some no deed exceptions & product changes ). The Mayflower "pilgrims" bought early at developer prices when the product was more fluid & you had many ways to strategize to your advantage. Those of us who come in early 2000s sort of the last wagon trains who live the wild west MVC energy of growth easily leveraging our ownership. 2007 a dividing line of collapse of owner equity & resale market collapse.

Marriott's new Fort Apache is the Trust & points program where Marriott takes write offs for itself & pegs Trust points near the pre-2007 developer highs. No more deeded weeks, but for multiple legacy owners, a choice to enroll their weeks and learn new strategies. This hasn't been a static process as Marriott integrates owners into the MR hotel loyalty program which does add to strategy so long as one takes a longer view. 

Folks who will feel less satisfied are those who buy linear weeks a year or so prior to 2007 collapse, or those who don't own multiple weeks. Honestly speaking, if one wanted to exploit enrolling their legacy week(s) you really needed to own at least 3 or more weeks. Especially advantageous  to those legacy owners who can indeed gain more flexibility via using enrolled points.

Once again, as to resale: it's out there, but expect low return on your dollar as it was always this way ( except early 2000s for select platinum weeks at high demand resorts -- folks actually sold at a *profit*).

But Marriott does offer to buy select weeks, steeply discounted for those who want to sell. Part of the process of a market economy.

travel safe & enjoy your weeks 

barry


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> and so do healthcare cost, hotel rates etc go up. I used to pay 5 cents for candy and now it is a dollar.



Back to the point: It's important to know what MF are going to be in the future to see if you can afford them. You may be able to afford $12K in MF today but not $32K in 20 years (which is where 12K goes at 5% in 20 years primarily due to exorbitant management fees).


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

jerseyfinn said:


> But Marriott does offer to buy select weeks, steeply discounted for those who want to sell. Part of the process of a market economy



Again, talked to thousands of Marriott owners on other sites for YEARS, never heard of this until just now.


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> I've never seen in point of actual fact that Marriott bought back anything and I've talked with thousands of current/former owners on other sites. If you say they did, you'd be the first I've ever heard of in 25 years.
> 
> Marriott doesnt make money for its clients--Marriott makes money for its executives and shareholders. Marriott does not make money for the benefit of timeshare owners.
> 
> ...



They bought back my Marriott Harbour Lake, Willow Ridge, Royal Palms and Sabal Palms units. I actually made money off of the units from what I paid for them from various sites like eBay and private transactions. They are not buying as much as they were.

Marriott is not supposed to make money for its clients nor timeshare owners. We are consumers of THEIR products so they have no obligation to make money for us. Their responsibility is to their shareholders like every other company. I don't see how Marriott should be any different. When I walk into a restaurant for dinner, I am their client and they are making money off of me, that's business. 

The deadline of 2010 applies to the majority of the Marriott units in North America and the "extensions" were attempts to get the holdouts to convert. I'm sure there will be further offers down the road to get legacy owners to shell out more money. Will I do it ? Not a chance at retail prices, but as a company, that is their goal, is to sell their "wares" and I can not fault them for trying to make a buck like any other business.

I bought all my timeshares resale and they're making me money renting them out. Marriott owes me nothing other than providing the service I paid for. Beyond that they are not there to earn money for me, that isn't what they were promising me. If I want that, then I should be shareholder and then they have a responsibility to me to make me money.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

What I said about shareholders vs timeshare owners 



Quadmaniac said:


> I bought all my timeshares resale and they're making me money renting them out. Marriott owes me nothing other than providing the service I paid for. Beyond that they are not there to earn money for me, that isn't what they were promising me. If I want that, then I should be shareholder and then they have a responsibility to me to make me money



Obviously not everyone can make money from renting... You can go to just about any rental site and see thousands that went unrented. I would definitely buy for rentals, if I could at least break even at worst and sometimes make a small profit.


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## SeaDoc (Apr 20, 2019)

Our corporate entity is VAC, not MAR...  


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

SeaDoc said:


> r corporate entity is VAC, not MAR...



Exactly what I said...  I said you also have to see MAR. Where do you think the management fees, etc end up for certain transactions, etc.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

What I'm very interested in watching are MF on points... at current rate it looks like .60 (current MF cost) becomes $1 in 9 years. Then 7000 points for a Hawaii week are about par for just renting in the first place, especially interesting to me as family members were told some years ago rental prices would go way up by now... instead in 10-15 years since purchase of these properties the rental prices really havent changed all that much, meanwhile MF more than DOUBLED


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## VacationForever (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> What I'm very interested in watching are MF on points... at current rate it looks like .60 (current MF cost) becomes $1 in 9 years. Then 7000 points for a Hawaii week are about par for just renting in the first place.


You definitely have a bone to pick with Marriott. If you would share why and what.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> You definitely have a bone to pick with Marriott. If you would share why and wh



Point of matter, I am neither pro nor anti. Statement of facts doesnt mean bone to pick. Some may not like the facts. Also, thought TUG was a site where enlightenment n truth were sort of the point, rather than towing the party/developer line.


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## VacationForever (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Point of matter, I am neither pro nor anti. Statement of facts doesnt mean bone to pick. Some may not like the facts. Also, thought TUG was a site where enlightenment n truth were sort of the point, rather than towing the party/developer line.


Your post is only partially fact driven as we have established.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

Oh gosh, partially fact driven again.... please go back to the OP


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> What I said about shareholders vs timeshare owners
> 
> Obviously not everyone can make money from renting... You can go to just about any rental site and see thousands that went unrented. I would definitely buy for rentals, if I could at least break even at worst and sometimes make a small profit.



You are right not everyone can, its about picking the right resorts and knowing the market. Its not any different from normal real estate. Some will make money from it and some won't. It all depends upon your research, planning, evaluation of the market and sometimes luck as well. Most timeshare owners are not knowledgeable about what they own, how to use it and what the real market is for what they own and that onus is on them. It is definitely possible to make money renting timeshares out, you just need to research which ones will make you money.


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## VacationForever (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Would like to buy Marriott resales, really would, but every year, Marriott gets more greedy and devalues their own product while simultaneously artificially raising prices. From ~$10 a point a few years ago (at developer cost) to an artificially inflated ~$15 a point today (with absolutely NO market driving the increases except for corporate greed).
> 
> *It is something like $14.10, not $15 and with discount it ends up as about $11.
> *
> ...


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 20, 2019)

Well said VacationForever.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

*



			It is something like $14.10, not $15 and with discount it ends up as about $11.
		
Click to expand...


Please check pricing for the Q2 2019. Please check actual discounting being offered (and what's required to get any actual discount at all.*



> *In general, no system other than DVC, keeps its value when resold. Prior to Destination Club launch, Marriott weeks could only be used at their home resort, traded in RCI (old resorts) and II, plus the ability to convert to MRPs. Resale weeks only lose the ability to convert to MRPs. This is the same perk that is lost on a resale Hyatt week. With introduction of Destination Points program, week owners have not lost what they do not have in the first place.*


*
Um, weeks owners didnt have to buy points. They could be converted into the system for a fee then got access to points and trades anywhere.... 

Check your facts please. Points and vacation anywhere was advertised by Marriott sales as a benefit for several years before DVC was introduced so many thousands bought based on the promise AND no one anywhere ever said there would be strings attached, so your point is incorrect and invalid. 





			Management fees is a fixed percentage of MF fees.
		
Click to expand...





Marriott owns their weeks and can make money on them, similar to us owners. They pay the same MF as the rest of us. Nothing nefarious.

Click to expand...


Spend a little more time in the financials please... You aren't seeing all the costs, fees, expenses and how they are paid out unless you do.

Take a little time to see how rentals work and how much fees are taken back by Marriott as well. Thanks
*


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> *
> Please check pricing for the Q2 2019. Please check actual discounting being offered (and what's required to get any actual discount at all.*
> 
> 
> ...


I would have to honestly say, most people don't really care nor do we have any say in how Marriott runs things. Marriott is in the business of making money and I don't see them being any different from any other business trying to profit by bundling their services together to create an enjoyable product.

I think you might want to spend LESS time on financials and trying to enjoy your vacations. Life is short and if you want to waste it picking over things of how a business runs, have at it, but I would rather be in Hawaii enjoying the beach and Marriott facilities. That's just my 2 cents on it.


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> What I'm very interested in watching are MF on points... at current rate it looks like .60 (current MF cost) becomes $1 in 9 years. Then 7000 points for a Hawaii week are about par for just renting in the first place, especially interesting to me as family members were told some years ago rental prices would go way up by now... instead in 10-15 years since purchase of these properties the rental prices really havent changed all that much, meanwhile MF more than DOUBLED



There's a new concept...it's called saying whatever you can to make a sale. If you really believe what a timeshare salesperson says as fact, you're in for a rude awaking. Of course they're going to exaggerate to make a sale and make it seem obvious that this is the best deal ever and you will save money buying into their program.


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## VacationForever (Apr 20, 2019)

Quadmaniac said:


> I would have to honestly say, most people don't really care nor do we have any say in how Marriott runs things. Marriott is in the business of making money and I don't see them being any different from any other business trying to profit by bundling their services together to create an enjoyable product.
> 
> I think you might want to spend LESS time on financials and trying to enjoy your vacations. Life is short and if you want to waste it picking over things of how a business runs, have at it, but I would rather be in Hawaii enjoying the beach and Marriott facilities. That's just my 2 cents on it.


Well said!  We have nothing but great vacations, memories and looking forward for more to come, all made possible by timesharing and mostly with MVC!


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## davidvel (Apr 20, 2019)

This thread reminds me of dog chasing its tail. Good luck folks.


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> *
> Please check pricing for the Q2 2019. Please check actual discounting being offered (and what's required to get any actual discount at all.*



I think this is irrelevant as most are not going to buy directly from Marriott anyways if they are on this site and have done research into the system. If someone was truly getting into it and wanted to buy from Marriott specifically, they would buy a hybrid package that has been discussed a number of times on a regular basis here. Whether it is $11, 10, or $9.52, it doesn't matter.



NotNew said:


> *
> Um, weeks owners didnt have to buy points. They could be converted into the system for a fee then got access to points and trades anywhere....
> 
> Check your facts please. Points and vacation anywhere was advertised by Marriott sales as a benefit for several years before DVC was introduced so many thousands bought based on the promise AND no one anywhere ever said there would be strings attached, so your point is incorrect and invalid.
> *



That isn't quite correct. Weeks owners were given the OPTION to enroll in the DP system if they purchased prior to its release in 2010. This was not a promise to weeks owners at the time that owners originally purchased their weeks. The points they were promised was the MRP and that is still applicable if you were the original owner. There is nothing in the documents that says that a new owner would be entitled to the same benefits as the original purchaser. Please remember it is their ball park and their rules. If you go to the ball park, you follow their rules or you don't go in.  



NotNew said:


> *
> 
> Spend a little more time in the financials please... You aren't seeing all the costs, fees, expenses and how they are paid out unless you do.
> 
> ...



What difference would it make if someone was to do this ? Would it change things in some way for most users ? Most are just thinking about a vacation at a nice facility with a certain standard that is pleasing to them. Am I going to stress about Marriott making money off of me ? Probably not. If they aren't making money off of me, they won't be around very long and I won't be taking any vacations to their properties. I'm not suggesting highway robbery, but there is an expectation that they can't charge me their cost, that's just idiotic. Everyone has to make money, that's why they're in business.


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## csalter2 (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Would like to buy Marriott resales, really would, but every year, Marriott gets more greedy and devalues their own product while simultaneously artificially raising prices. From ~$10 a point a few years ago (at developer cost) to an artificially inflated ~$15 a point today (with absolutely NO market driving the increases except for corporate greed).
> 
> If timeshares are deeded real estate and the original purchaser already paid the developer costs. Why does Marriott make it impossible to resell and get back any of your investment? Hyatt, as an example, never did this, it was simply a few hundred $$$ for the transfer fees and the buyer retained all the value. Marriott takes all privileges away from those who buy resales, except the right to stay at home resort.
> 
> ...




I am going to share some information that I believe could be useful for this conversation.  Now if you are saying that points are too expensive, that is for sure certain and I think Tuggers here would agree.  However, those who bought weeks, particularly those who bought them resale and there are some who have paid almost nothing, they can most certainly tell you that they have had the deal of a lifetime BEFORE points. 

You state that you have talked with “thousands of owners”, well we all know thousands of owners who don’t have a clue on how to maximize their ownership.  There are many here who more than profit from there timeshares and/or go on vacations for free due to their timeshare purchases.  However, I am just going to look at my timeshare which I purchased directly from Marriott back in 2003.  It is a one week purchase for $25,000. It is now enrolled in the Destinations Program which I did back when the program started in 2003. Using this year’s maintenance fees, I pay 2315.00. That’s not what I have always paid, but that’s the current amount. I am going to round it to $2300 for this exercise.  Over 20 years, which I will exceed health willing, If I add my current maintenance fee to my purchase price (divided over 20 years) that would be $2300 + $1250 = $3550.  That total of $3550 would be my total cost of initial outlay and current maintenance fees.. If I divide that amount by 7 days for the use of the full two bedrooms that comes out to $507 per night and if I lock it off and get accommodations for 14 nights that comes out to $250 per night.(3550/7 =$507 & 3550/14 = 250.  Now understand that my accommodations are quite nice at this resort. I get to look at the ocean/marina and if is very nice.  So after reading your rant, I went to Kayak.com and I looked at what the cheapest rate I could find for a week in July which is when I go and I did not even select July 4th week which I have stayed several times. The cheapest I saw was Kuhio Banyan for $61/per night with a total cost of about $540 for the week.  However, it’s just not a place that my wife would approve and the level of accommodations and amenities are just not up to the standards she and my kids are accustomed.  There are many other places that are cheaper, but there is no view of an ocean unless you move up to an ocean view level room and then you started paying more.  I searched for a place that was in the range of my studio side to see what I could get for $250/night.  I saw a place for $253 called The Royal Hawaiian, A Luxury Collection Resort in Waikiki. Well, the total cost for *7 nights* is $2486.62 but again no view of the ocean and a single two bedded room.  *Remember I get 14 nights *for that rate and that includes my original cost. 

I also often travel with kids and grandkids so I need space and beds.  I can *rent *points for an additional $1200 or so dollars hundred dollars and get a 3 bedroom if I so desired.  Again, *HUGE SAVINGS with superior accommodations.
*
I am just touching the tip of the iceberg.  Last year, I bought two more properties from Marriott. I did because I wanted more time and family accommodations. I bought the weeks in Aruba and Ocean Pointe for more than the resale but not by too much.  I rented the studio sides of those two properties and am still going on vacation at those the locations. It’s all profit because Marriott paid for the maintenance fees.  In addition, Marriott gave me a bonus week, I rented that to someone. 

In conclusion, I hear what you say about rising interest rates. I have interest rates that have been rising too and they should ably handle my maintenance fees as I travel around the world. There are others on this site that do a lot of different creative ways to maximize what they have.  So in a limited view, you may be right. However, that is not the case for everyone. Some people do very well.


----------



## Pathways (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> I've talked with thousands of current/former owners on other sites. If you say they did, you'd be the first I've ever heard of in 25 years.



Please, do tell, what sites and thousands of owners were blessed with so much misinformation?




NotNew said:


> Thanks also for getting the conversation started. Really do want all viewpoints!!



Don't buy this at all



NotNew said:


> Put your current MF cost into a savings calculator at 5% with $0 deposits for 20 years to see where you'll be in terms of costs and what expense you wll be passing on to your family.



What on earth expense will I be passing on to my family?  This has been debunked over and over again.



NotNew said:


> It's important to know what MF are going to be in the future to see if you can afford them.



Gee, just like my house. Need to know what the taxes and refurbishment costs will be for the next 30 years.



davidvel said:


> This thread reminds me of dog chasing its tail. Good luck folks.



Dead on


----------



## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

Quadmaniac said:


> There's a new concept...it's called saying whatever you can to make a sale. If you really believe what a timeshare salesperson says as fact, you're in for a rude awaking. Of course they're going to exaggerate to make a sale and make it seem obvious that this is the best deal ever and you will save money buying into their program.



For sure... well said. Best deal ever was only ever to be found in a resale.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

Pathways said:


> Don't buy this at al



No Need to be rude pathways... No one else has, even if we've disagreed.


----------



## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

Quadmaniac said:


> This was not a promise to weeks owners at the time that owners originally purchased their weeks. The points they were promised was the MRP and that is still applicable if you were the original owner. There is nothing in the documents that says that a new owner would be entitled to the same benefits as the original purchaser. Please remember it is their ball park and their rules. If you go to the ball park, you follow their rules or you don't go in



Having been present during sales pitches for it... it was ABSOLUTELY a promise made and one made multiple times by multiple people at multiple locations.


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Having been present during sales pitches for it... it was ABSOLUTELY a promise made and one made multiple times by multiple people at multiple locations.



We’re talking about prior to 2010 when they were selling weeks. How can they promise something that did not exist ?


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> full two bedrooms that comes out to $507 per night a



$507 per night.... is on the money... locking it off with wife and kids into a studio / 1 bedroom? I'm not seeing it happen actually so I sincerely doubt you are doing the $250 option.

Now if you do, there have been years off an on where you can get Marriott/Ocean/Hawaii studio's from Marriott at $199 a night --- many in fact.

AND at $507 a night... you aren't far off the actual nightly cost for Marriott/Ocean/Hawaii up until about 2010 or so.



csalter2 said:


> I bought the weeks in Aruba and Ocean Pointe for more than the resale but not by too much. I rented the studio sides of those two properties and am still going on vacation at those the locations. It’s all profit because Marriott paid for the maintenance fees. In addition, Marriott gave me a bonus week, I rented that to someone.



I like the idea of buying resales and being able to rent out part to recoup MF.

But I see so many units that never ever rent, even at hot locations like HAWAII and the CARIBBEAN.


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## TXTortoise (Apr 20, 2019)

I think Pathways has more support than you give him credit for as this is starting to feel like trolling from someone that's only been on TUG for two days and hasn't taken the time to learn a bit from a whole bunch of other useful threads...assuming learning is the objective.  Starting to lose track of what the whole point was...  

If you really want to buy resale, then search on hybrids, e.g., CSalter specifically, or Dean for trades....and project your future cost and decide if it's worth it to you. You have to match 'your' requirements to the solution..just too many ways to leverage Marriott ownership/usage to fixate on the usual points at retail and 5% growth of MFs argument, as significant as that is in your decision.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

Quadmaniac said:


> We’re talking about prior to 2010 when they were selling weeks. How can they promise something that did not exist ?



They absolutely were promising it... the same way they promise you'll be able to go to XYZ because they're in the process of building it, even though XYZ might not open for 5 years (and not something they tell you).


----------



## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

TXTortoise said:


> ink Pathways has more support than you give him credit for as this is starting to feel like trolling from someone that's only been on TUG for two days and hasn't taken the time to learn a bit from a whole bunch of other useful threads...assuming learning is the objective. Starting to lose track of what the whole point was...



Yes obviously if you can't discredit me I must be a troll. And just because I joined here with this account 2 days ago, doesnt mean I havent been here before or havent been reading threads for years. Common... geez.


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## VacationForever (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Yes obviously if you can't discredit me I must be a troll. And just because I joined here with this account 2 days ago, doesnt mean I havent been here before or havent been reading threads for years. Common... geez.


I believe you are the same member who went by something like "I am new here"  from about a year back, who has a bone to pick with Marriott.  Likely to be a former/disgruntled MVC employee.  You are now on my ignore list.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> I believe you are the same member who went by something like "I am new here" from about a year back, who has a bone to pick with Marriott. Likely to be a former/disgruntled MVC employee. You are now on my ignore list.



That's hilarious... yes, of course, only one person in the world would come here and disagree with the Marriott love fest going on. Ok, thanks.


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## csalter2 (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> $507 per night.... is on the money... locking it off with wife and kids into a studio / 1 bedroom? I'm not seeing it happen actually so I sincerely doubt you are doing the $250 option.
> 
> Now if you do, there have been years off an on where you can get Marriott/Ocean/Hawaii studio's from Marriott at $199 a night --- many in fact.
> 
> ...



*Well, I don’t rent often because I use like using my time. However, I have been successful when I try.*


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

Apparently if you question all the issues with ever-increasing MF or anything else about Marriott. You are a) a troll or b) that one person from a year ago who didnt like Marriott. LOL


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> Well, I don’t rent often because I use like using my time. However, I have been successful when I try.



Nice! Got lucky! Lots of people I talk with don't. Problem is there are so many units available for sale, resale and rent.


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## tschwa2 (Apr 20, 2019)

Not everyone here has a lovefest with Marriott but it works for some and they see the value in it so it seems unproductive to argue if they like it.
I've owned 5 different Marriott weeks (most one at a time) and currently don't have any.  Some I made $500-$2000 from buy to sell while others may have lost $500-$1000 over what I purchased them for.  Sometimes I feel I need the Marriott priority in II and other times I feel like the MF cost and exchange cost is too high for what I get.  I may try to point out the costs vs benefits if someone is asking about buying but I don't think you need to be so confrontational about a system that works for many and for others not so much.


----------



## csalter2 (Apr 20, 2019)

$507 per night.... is on the money... locking it off with wife and kids into a studio / 1 bedroom? I'm not seeing it happen actually so I sincerely doubt you are doing the $250 option.

Now if you do, there have been years off an on where you can get Marriott/Ocean/Hawaii studio's from Marriott at $199 a night --- many in fact.

AND at $507 a night... you aren't far off the actual nightly cost for Marriott/Ocean/Hawaii up until about 2010 or so.

*The math is the math. You have it right before you. It’s not conjecture. Those are the real numbers. I actually do lock off but not always. I do have my 5 year old in the studio if it is just her. Heck, she sleeps with us at home and she has her own room.  Like I stated earlier when you want a view of the ocean, your rates go up significantly anywhere from $400 to $600+ per night. That is not always a two bedroom either. Plus, they have resort fees and taxes. My $3550 includes everything. Also, you aren’t always getting a kitchen either or you may not even be beachfront.  

If you want a separate bedroom in many places for your kids, you will be looking for an additional charge for an adjoining room so you’re are paying for two rooms. I will keep what I have. It worth it TO ME.*


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Nice! Got lucky! Lots of people I talk with don't. Problem is there are so many units available for sale, resale and rent.


Maybe you need to be talking to different people. I have been able to reliably rent out my units on a regular basis and have it pay for my vacations. It's not luck, its knowing the market and buying the right timeshare.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

tschwa2 said:


> Not everyone here has a lovefest with Marriott but it works for some and they see the value in it so it seems unproductive to argue if they like it.
> I've owned 5 different Marriott weeks (most one at a time) and currently don't have any. Some I made $500-$2000 from buy to sell while others may have lost $500-$1000 over what I purchased them for. Sometimes I feel I need the Marriott priority in II and other times I feel like the MF cost and exchange cost is too high for what I get. I may try to point out the costs vs benefits if someone is asking about buying but I don't think you need to be so confrontational about a system that works for many and for others not so much.



Nice... Good to see success with buying multiple and then selling them.... You should read through though who was/is being confrontational. Expressing an opinion is not confrontational... Calling someone a troll, being rude, angry or saying they must be so and so is in point of fact confrontational


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

someone asked about other forums where I'm a member:

redweek forums
tripadviser vacation rental forums
timeshare forums
disboards forums
arubabound forums
wmowners.com forums

and a few others


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## csalter2 (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> They absolutely were promising it... the same way they promise you'll be able to go to XYZ because they're in the process of building it, even though XYZ might not open for 5 years (and not something they tell you).



Well, I place that responsibility on the buyer. The contract tells you what you’re going to get.  The contract for Marriott gives all the details. You get your unit and you can use it, rent it and exchange it.  That is all that is guaranteed.  Also, if there are any extras such as incentives, those are also included in the contract.

You as the buyer have a week to review that contract and/or have a lawyer review it.  That is your responsibility just as it is when you are buying any real estate.  The buyer must do their due diligence. Obviously, the thousands of buyers that you have sat through sales presentations with did not do their homework.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> The math is the math. You have it right before you. It’s not conjecture. Those are the real numbers. I actually do lock off but not always. I do have my 5 year old in the studio if it is just her. Heck, she sleeps with us at home and she has her own room.  Like I stated earlier when you want a view of the ocean, your rates go up significantly anywhere from $400 to $600+ per night. That is not always a two bedroom either. Plus, they have resort fees and taxes. My $3550 includes everything. Also, you aren’t always getting a kitchen either or you may not even be beachfront.



Well that's a great value for you then if you are able to lock off and use your units that way.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> Well, I place that responsibility on the buyer. The contract tells you what you’re going to get. The contract for Marriott gives all the details. You get your unit and you can use it, rent it and exchange it. That is all that is guaranteed. Also, if there are any extras such as incentives, those are also included in the contract.
> 
> You as the buyer have a week to review that contract and/or have a lawyer review it. That is your responsibility just as it is when you are buying any real estate. The buyer must do their due diligence. Obviously, the thousands of buyers that you have sat through sales presentations with did not do their homework.



Easy to say it's on the buyer, but we all know Marriott sales plays hardball even if they claim never to use hardball tactics. Try to leave a sales meeting, especially if they've promised you something to get you there. Or if you are at the almost sale phase and they have your ID. You aren't getting out of there.

We all want to believe in the pie they are selling us...


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## csalter2 (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Easy to say it's on the buyer, but we all know Marriott sales plays hardball even if they claim never to use hardball tactics. Try to leave a sales meeting, especially if they've promised you something to get you there. Or if you are at the almost sale phase and they have your ID. You aren't getting out of there.
> 
> We all want to believe in the pie they are selling us...



Like I stated, you have a whole week to rescind your purchase and get your money back.  All it takes is a letter or email. Secondly, I have never bought my properties at a resort. I have bought them from the comfort of my home where I set the timetable at my convenience and I can control things.  I have sat through several sale presentations/updates but I know how to say, “No thank you” consistently.


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Easy to say it's on the buyer, but we all know Marriott sales plays hardball even if they claim never to use hardball tactics. Try to leave a sales meeting, especially if they've promised you something to get you there. Or if you are at the almost sale phase and they have your ID. You aren't getting out of there.
> 
> We all want to believe in the pie they are selling us...



I've left at least 3 where they were being aggressive and rude. I told them I'm done and walked to the front to get my gift. If you're staying, that's on you. No one is tying you down and putting a gun to your head. If you want to leave, leave. I've never had an issue telling them I'm leaving.


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 20, 2019)

With all due respect, I think you might want to spend a bit more time reading through this forum. A lot of the assumptions you make is made on limited knowledge. There is a wealth of information on this site and many great observations are in conflict with what you believe to be true. There is always something to learn


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## davidvel (Apr 20, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> I believe you are the same member who went by something like "I am new here"  from about a year back, who has a bone to pick with Marriott.  Likely to be a former/disgruntled MVC employee.  You are now on my ignore list.


Certainly something odd about this whole thing. Lots of short accusatory statements looking for a rise. No real flow or logic--just a need to challenge and continually respond. We've seen this before.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

Quadmaniac said:


> With all due respect, I think you might want to spend a bit more time reading through this forum. A lot of the assumptions you make is made on limited knowledge. There is a wealth of information on this site and many great observations are in conflict with what you believe to be true. There is always something to learn



LIMITED KNOWLEDGE? LOL. I've been a timeshare owner for 25 years.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

davidvel said:


> Certainly something odd about this whole thing. Lots of short accusatory statements looking for a rise. No real flow or logic--just a need to challenge and continually respond. We've seen this before.



Yes, certainly strange to ask questions of MF... Wouldn't want to have a discussion about MF. No flow or logic? Yes, I'm a troll because I asked questions and have opinions.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> Like I stated, you have a whole week to rescind your purchase and get your money back.  All it takes is a letter or email. Secondly, I have never bought my properties at a resort. I have bought them from the comfort of my home where I set the timetable at my convenience and I can control things.  I have sat through several sale presentations/updates but I know how to say, “No thank you” consistently.



Lucky you. I wish my family started at resales, not full price.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

Quadmaniac said:


> I've left at least 3 where they were being aggressive and rude. I told them I'm done and walked to the front to get my gift. If you're staying, that's on you. No one is tying you down and putting a gun to your head. If you want to leave, leave. I've never had an issue telling them I'm leaving.



Well, if they have your ID and wont return it to you after you've asked. Not much else you can do, as one example. As other examples, after sitting there for an hour or more, and you do go to the front but no one will help you. That's on them.


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## amycurl (Apr 20, 2019)

My last Marriott presentation was 25 minutes, door to door. I got my gift. I've never owned a Marriott, and never will, because I can find I can stay in them when I want to without paying the upfront Marriott buy-in fee or MF cost (but thank you to all that do!) at a cost that is waaaay less, even with trade fees.

But, in all seriousness---what is your point here? What is the background and the context? Why made you say to yourself two days ago, "I think I need to create an account on this site and rant about Marriott?" especially since, as you pointed out, you already are a member of many other boards where you could have posted this same rant?  I'm not being sarcastic; I'm genuinely interested in what you want to have happen as an outcome of this conversation.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Would like to buy Marriott resales, really would, but every year, Marriott gets more greedy and devalues their own product while simultaneously artificially raising prices. From ~$10 a point a few years ago (at developer cost) to an artificially inflated ~$15 a point today (with absolutely NO market driving the increases except for corporate greed).
> 
> If timeshares are deeded real estate and the original purchaser already paid the developer costs. Why does Marriott make it impossible to resell and get back any of your investment? Hyatt, as an example, never did this, it was simply a few hundred $$$ for the transfer fees and the buyer retained all the value. Marriott takes all privileges away from those who buy resales, except the right to stay at home resort.
> 
> ...



So this is the OP. Not quite sure why I can't express my opinion w/o supposedly having some grandiose alterior motives. It's a discussion forum. AND IMHO Marriott is increasingly making it difficult to buy/sell their product as resales.


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## csalter2 (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Lucky you. I wish my family started at resales, not full price.



I shared with you that I bought my weeks directly from Marriott!


----------



## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> I shared with you that I bought my weeks directly from Marriott!



Sorry Carlito... I misread because you said you bought in 2003, then you mentioned kids and grandkids and then later a 5-year old between you and your wife that you shared the studio/lockoff with.


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> LIMITED KNOWLEDGE? LOL. I've been a timeshare owner for 25 years.


Owning for 25 years or even 50 years does not equate to knowledge. My dad is 37 years older than me, it does not mean he is more knowledgeable by default. But it is obvious from your statements and assertions, your experience has been very narrow by some of your assertions.


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Well, if they have your ID and wont return it to you after you've asked. Not much else you can do, as one example. As other examples, after sitting there for an hour or more, and you do go to the front but no one will help you. That's on them.




In all the timeshare presentations I’ve gone to, sometimes multiple times in certain locations, I’ve never given them my ID to hold onto. Whether it be Marriott, Westin, Sheraton, Hyatt, never once have they taken my ID. Most times they don’t even ask to see it. That’s how I know you lack a broad based experience of timeshares as you are probably basing it on one experience possible in Mexico or something. We can certainly take a survey to see how many users here have ever had the company take and hold onto your ID. 

I’ve never had an issue getting anyone at the front desk. So again I call limited experience.


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## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

Quadmaniac said:


> experience has been very narrow but some of your assertions



oh really? yes, everyone who has a different opinion must be a troll, lack knowledge or experience or have an agenda. Geez... Head shake.


----------



## NotNew (Apr 20, 2019)

Quadmaniac said:


> In all the timeshare presentations I’ve gone to, sometimes multiple times in certain locations, I’ve never given them my ID to hold onto. Whether it be Marriott, Westin, Sheraton, Hyatt, never once have they taken my ID. Most times they don’t even ask to see it. That’s how I know you lack a broad based experience of timeshares as you are probably basing it on one experience possible in Mexico or something. We can certainly take a survey to see how many users here have ever had the company take and hold onto your ID.



oh really? so you never actually bought anything from a developer then. You have no base of experience there from which to speak then. So what exactly happens do you think when you get to contracts? They take a picture of your face and randomly assign you a driver's license ID?


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> oh really? yes, everyone who has a different opinion must be a troll, lack knowledge or experience or have an agenda. Geez... Head shake.



Nothing wrong with different opinion but it is your statements that reveal how limited your knowledge is. As I said, take time to go through the forum and for example see how many times it has been mentioned marriott buying back units. There is even a thread where everyone has posted what they sold and for how much. Seeing that you have talked to THOUSANDS, you must have missed something if this has happened without you knowing it in your 25 years of owning.

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...cks-and-takebacks-2012-ongoing.178337/page-15


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 20, 2019)

NotNew said:


> oh really? so you never actually bought anything from a developer then. You have no base of experience there from which to speak then. So what exactly happens do you think when you get to contracts? They take a picture of your face and randomly assign you a driver's license ID?


 
To attend a presentation you do not need to give them anything. If you are going through contracts, then you’re progressing down the line or leading them on. If you’re not interested in buying, why would you be having contracts where you need ID ? Doesn’t make sense. 

You want to leave but they have your ID as they’re filling in a contract with you ? Ok makes no sense


----------



## GregT (Apr 21, 2019)

To the OP,

I am also puzzled by this thread.  Are you trying to say that Marriott is charging an excessively high price for their product?  I don't disagree with that.   You suggest that Marriott isn't paying the MFs on unsold weeks in the Trust and that you got that from their Annual Report.  Did I understand that correctly and if so, can you point me to where you determined that, as that was not my understanding.

I think you're suggesting also that timeshares are a waste of money.   If I misunderstood, please let me know.    From my perspective, I would much rather own my timeshares than own an expensive car or watch -- any of these luxury items could be considered a waste of money.  I'm flying back now from a trip to Ritz St. Thomas in the timeshare and it was an amazing trip that I would not have done if it wasn't a timeshare.   So I don't measure my return on timeshares monetarily.

We've had the debate many times here on TUG about if timeshares pencil out.   I'm not sure if they do or not but I would not hesitate to exactly repeat my purchases -- one direct purchase, the rest resale.   And I am fortunate to have bought before June 2010 so I am grandfathered in.   It's much harder to support buying post June 2010 but TUGgers like Fasttr have found a path -- they bought points direct, used those points and found a property they love, and bought that property resale, and use their points to extend their stay -- or rent points to supplement.

There is alot we can do with this system -- and yes, it's expensive to use and I ration when I use those valuable points -- like for Ritz Carlton St. Thomas, which is an amazing property.

So I think I've done it all -- rented points in/out, rented weeks in/out, utilized pure week reservations, utilized pure point reservations, and utilized a combination of week/point reservations.   I've also combined II trades with point reservations, and combined two II trades to make a larger unit.  I've traded my WM (which you know is a powerful trader as you've spent time on WMOwners and booked Studio's which I bolt onto a 1BR reservation that I made with points.    I've constructed family reunions, booking 8 reservations with all of the above.    There is alot that I can do with this system and it suits me well.

I don't worry about the financial return -- I have true investments for that.  This is a lifestyle decision and for the rest of my life, I will remember taking my 18 year daughter to St Thomas before she goes off to college, because I'd booked a 2BR unit six months ago and there was space for her to make a spontaneous decision to come.  It was an amazing trip with some conversations that I will cherish for the rest of my life -- how do I place a value on that?

I think some of the responses that you are feeling from TUGgers is because many of us simply don't think about this solely from an economic perspective.  I don't want to have to try to rent these things to avoid the up-front cost, I want to own it, understand how the system works, and use it to my advantage.   

If you tell us what you are trying to do with the Marriott system, I bet we could come up with some creative ideas for you that would merit consideration.   Or we may confirm that Marriott isn't for you -- and maybe HGVC or Starwood are -- I like them too.

Best,

Greg


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## GregT (Apr 21, 2019)

NotNew said:


> A background in accounting helps to see where the shells are being pushed around. You also need to look at NASDAQ: MAR, in the financials.



Okay, I have another hour to kill on my flight, so I did as you suggest and looked at the Annual Report.   Here is what I found (and I do have a background in accounting).

First disclosure:

Rental

We generate revenue from rentals of inventory that we hold for sale as interests in our vacation ownership programs or as residences, or inventory that we control because our owners have elected alternative usage options permitted under our vacation ownership programs

Second disclosure:

Rental

In our Vacation Ownership segment, we operate a rental business to provide owner flexibility and to help mitigate carrying costs associated with our inventory.

Third disclosure:

Rental expenses include:
    • Maintenance fees on unsold inventory;


I'm not sure what you found that suggests something different, but this makes me believe the cost of the unsold product is being paid by Marriott.  I may have misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Best,

Greg


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## NotNew (Apr 21, 2019)

GregT said:


> To the OP,
> 
> I am also puzzled by this thread.  Are you trying to say that Marriott is charging an excessively high price for their product?  I don't disagree with that.   You suggest that Marriott isn't paying the MFs on unsold weeks in the Trust and that you got that from their Annual Report.  Did I understand that correctly and if so, can you point me to where you determined that, as that was not my understanding.
> 
> ...



Except for your puzzlement, we agree on quite a lot 

The issue is not specifically with MF, but with costs, fees, etc and how the monies get back to the timeshare side of the business, how much in excess of cost Marriott charges for the management, etc. All the flows are there, follow or not, as you will. Marriott does do a lot of good things, but the company is far from perfect. If we all just simply accept the status quo, they will keep pushing at the edges. 

I don't think timeshares are a waste of money. I think there's lots to like with timeshares, but again if we keep accepting the status quo w/o asking questions and looking in the corners, the companies running them will keep pushing at the edges to see what they can get away with. My family owns multiple in multiple systems. Me specifically, for 25 years.

I'm not looking for financial return. I am looking to ensure that my family (extended and me) can continue to enjoy our vacations. The key issues here is the steady rise of MF and other costs/fees, when in all honesty over the past 10-12 years through the recession and such should not have continued at a steady rise of 3-5% / year IMHO. In it's steady march of 3-5%, we will be priced out of vacations at some point.

I suspect also that the integration of all the new purchases will result in a lot of the benefits of the system being diluted. For example, those at the top (Presidents/Chairmans) may find they are suddenly not at the top of the system--they may be closer to the executive, meanwhile, the executive may be under a rug somewhere. In the hotel points system, silver/golds became like platinums and platinums became like everyone else for about a year.

Some of the new purchases really havent been managed effectively for a few years, and they will likely be costly to update/integrate back to the norm.

Just thoughts... so how do we hedge our bets against the coming tide of change and increasing MF?


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## GregT (Apr 21, 2019)

NotNew,

I don't think you can hedge your bets against the coming tide of change and increasing MFs.   MFs will continue to go up because all costs are going up -- I am a CFO of a company and cost containment is one of the most difficult things to do.   People want raises, electricity goes up, the suppliers want to pass through their higher costs to you, new employees often cost more than existing employees, and sometimes things break.   All Marriott is doing is managing our vacation home for us and passing through the actual cost to us.   If we don't want to pay it, then we really should sell and let Marriott buy it, stick in the Trust, and find new owners for Points.   They may need to change their target customer -- both the geographic location as well as the age, but I am confident they will find buyers for those points.

I did find the section on the management fees, they have $359M of management fees and ancillary revenues and a related cost of $190M so Marriott makes $169M in profit from the management all of our properties, the restaurants, the golf clubs, and our club fees.   Almost half of the $169M in margin is our Club Fees, that $260 per year that I pay.      One of Marriott's goals in introducing DClub was to develop a more stable/recurring revenue source and they have been successful.

I could probably challenge some of Marriott's decisions in upgrading Maui Ocean Club (because those costs get passed through to us in our maintenance fees, and they charge a percentage of those cost) but the property looks fantastic and I am always ecstatic when I am there.  I remember times when the property looked a little shabby and I know they were trying to hold MFs flat (they did that after the 2008 crash).  So I don't mind -- and if the people object enough to the GM and the HOA, maybe that will influence their renovations budgets and hiring decisions.  But we hire Marriott to manage the properties and I think they do a pretty good job of it.  I think I'm at 20 Marriott's visited and I think they are terrific.

We will see -- and I hope that we are all enjoying these timeshares for many years.  Flight is landing...!!    You all need to visit the Ritz STT!   

Best,

Greg


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## bazzap (Apr 21, 2019)

MVC pays MFs like any other owner for the unsold inventory they “own”.
Therefore they pay their fair share for resources needed to maintain the resort, which covers what is needed for that unsold inventory.


NotNew said:


> Really, truly depends on how you are interpreting the passed on costs, fees and expenses, and like I said only the financials reveal this and of course, each properties reports.
> 
> As an example, resources are needed to maintain unsold inventory properties. How otherwise are these resources being paid for? Other costs fees expenses are in the MF as well
> 
> _-obviously not intended to be a source of advice or financial information_


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## csalter2 (Apr 21, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Sorry Carlito... I misread because you said you bought in 2003, then you mentioned kids and grandkids and then later a 5-year old between you and your wife that you shared the studio/lockoff with.



Yes, I bought pre-construction in 2003 from Marriott. I do have a 5 year old and grandkids. Yes, my five year old shares a studio sometimes with us. All true, but I bought my three weeks directly from Marriott and I did it all from my house. I cut good deals with Marriott. The last two weeks were part of the hybrid but instead of a week and points, I was able to get a two week hybrid package in which one week was an Aruba Surf Club week straight discounted buy and the other was a resale week that Marriott had bought back from a previous owner.  (You see, Marriott does buy back deeds.) Marriott enrolled both weeks so I have access to the points for those weeks.


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## dagger1 (Apr 21, 2019)

GregT said:


> To the OP,
> 
> I am also puzzled by this thread.  Are you trying to say that Marriott is charging an excessively high price for their product?  I don't disagree with that.   You suggest that Marriott isn't paying the MFs on unsold weeks in the Trust and that you got that from their Annual Report.  Did I understand that correctly and if so, can you point me to where you determined that, as that was not my understanding.
> 
> ...


Thank you Greg.  So dang well said.  Your post is one of the things I love about TUG!


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## dagger1 (Apr 21, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Except for your puzzlement, we agree on quite a lot
> 
> The issue is not specifically with MF, but with costs, fees, etc and how the monies get back to the timeshare side of the business, how much in excess of cost Marriott charges for the management, etc. All the flows are there, follow or not, as you will. Marriott does do a lot of good things, but the company is far from perfect. If we all just simply accept the status quo, they will keep pushing at the edges.
> 
> ...


I have tried to hedge my bets by buying weeks that I want to use.  But I am sure everyone has a concern about the cumulative effect in rising MF’s.  It’s hard for me to believe the rising cost of maintaining and living in our house here in Houston.  I also remember thinking (years ago) that if I ever made $100K/year, we would have made it.  I can also remember my father (God rest his soul) telling me that he once thought the same if he ever made $10K/year.  But right now what we are getting for our Hyatt and Marriott MF’s just amazes me.  It makes me happy just thinking about what/where we own and our future vacations with our kids and grandkids.  Everyone is making very good points, this is an interesting thread.


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## NotNew (Apr 21, 2019)

GregT said:


> We will see -- and I hope that we are all enjoying these timeshares for many years. Flight is landing...!! You all need to visit the Ritz STT!



Sure  Later


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## NotNew (Apr 21, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> Yes, I bought pre-construction in 2003 from Marriott. I do have a 5 year old and grandkids. Yes, my five year old shares a studio sometimes with us. All true, but I bought my three weeks directly from Marriott and I did it all from my house. I cut good deals with Marriott. The last two weeks were part of the hybrid but instead of a week and points, I was able to get a two week hybrid package in which one week was an Aruba Surf Club week straight discounted buy and the other was a resale week that Marriott had bought back from a previous owner. (You see, Marriott does buy back deeds.) Marriott enrolled both weeks so I have access to the points for those weeks.



Fantastic for you, really good timing!


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## NotNew (Apr 21, 2019)

dagger1 said:


> I have tried to hedge my bets by buying weeks that I want to use. But I am sure everyone has a concern about the cumulative effect in rising MF’s. It’s hard for me to believe the rising cost of maintaining and living in our house here in Houston. I also remember thinking (years ago) that if I ever made $100K/year, we would have made it. I can also remember my father (God rest his soul) telling me that he once thought the same if he ever made $10K/year. But right now what we are getting for our Hyatt and Marriott MF’s just amazes me. It makes me happy just thinking about what/where we own and our future vacations with our kids and grandkids. Everyone is making very good points, this is an interesting thread.



Definitely, I hear what you are saying about prices... Main issue for us right now is fixed income. MF may double, but our fixed income will likely not change much.


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## JIMinNC (Apr 21, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Definitely, I hear what you are saying about prices... Main issue for us right now is fixed income. MF may double, but our fixed income will likely not change much.



MF will go up, yes, but so does the cost of everything else. Some of the numbers you mentioned earlier in this thread calculated the cost of maintenance fees in 20 years, and looked at in isolation, those numbers do seem outlandishly high. But then, I look at what our family income and assets were 20 years ago and compare it to today, and it is a similar kind of relationship. Back then, today's numbers would have seemed like so much money. Today, not quite so much. We have been doing a lot of financial modeling for our upcoming retirement, and just looking at a nominal 2-3% inflation rate of our living expenses, the income our investments will need to generate in 20 years to cover those expenses looks equally daunting. But that's why we plan, and that's why we must keep some of our retirement funds in growth investments to protect us from the inflation monster. I don't care whether you are talking about timeshares or your basic living expenses, if your income is truly "fixed," inflation will eventually get you.


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## ski_sierra (Apr 21, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> MF will go up, yes, but so does the cost of everything else. Some of the numbers you mentioned earlier in this thread calculated the cost of maintenance fees in 20 years, and looked at in isolation, those numbers do seem outlandishly high. But then, I look at what our family income and assets were 20 years ago and compare it to today, and it is a similar kind of relationship. Back then, today's numbers would have seemed like so much money. Today, not quite so much. We have been doing a lot of financial modeling for our upcoming retirement, and just looking at a nominal 2-3% inflation rate of our living expenses, the income our investments will need to generate in 20 years to cover those expenses looks equally daunting. But that's why we plan, and that's why we must keep some of our retirement funds in growth investments to protect us from the inflation monster. I don't care whether you are talking about timeshares or your basic living expenses, if you income is truly "fixed," inflation will eventually get you.



I agree that everything goes up. Why wouldn't MVC want to increase MFs as much as possible?

The federal reserve tries to maintain small rate of inflation. How effective are the checks and balances to make sure the MF increases are reasonable ? Is the HOA or BOD on MVC's payroll so they are doing what is in MVC's best interest but not necessarily in the interest of owners? There is an exit program. Can you surrender your week when you want?


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## SMB1 (Apr 21, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Would like to buy Marriott resales, really would, but every year, Marriott gets more greedy and devalues their own product while simultaneously artificially raising prices. From ~$10 a point a few years ago (at developer cost) to an artificially inflated ~$15 a point today (with absolutely NO market driving the increases except for corporate greed).
> 
> If timeshares are deeded real estate and the original purchaser already paid the developer costs. Why does Marriott make it impossible to resell and get back any of your investment? Hyatt, as an example, never did this, it was simply a few hundred $$$ for the transfer fees and the buyer retained all the value. Marriott takes all privileges away from those who buy resales, except the right to stay at home resort.
> 
> ...





NotNew said:


> Except for your puzzlement, we agree on quite a lot
> 
> The issue is not specifically with MF, but with costs, fees, etc and how the monies get back to the timeshare side of the business, how much in excess of cost Marriott charges for the management, etc. All the flows are there, follow or not, as you will. Marriott does do a lot of good things, but the company is far from perfect. If we all just simply accept the status quo, they will keep pushing at the edges.
> 
> ...





NotNew said:


> Definitely, I hear what you are saying about prices... Main issue for us right now is fixed income. MF may double, but our fixed income will likely not change much.



It seems that you are not really looking for a solution to anything here.  You have concerns/opinions about the ever rising MF and wanted to state your concerns, which is something many of us do.  It somehow helps if we're not alone in our frustrations.  Some disagree with your opinions and have said so.  Nobody has disagreed with the fact that MFs continue to go up more than we would like. Some, I think out of frustration that the dialogue was circular, expressed frustration.  Always classy and articulate, GregT focused the conversation asking what your end goal is.  He offered, and I think many others feel the same way, to help if he could understand what you are trying to accomplish.  Your responses have given us a clearer understanding of your concerns and challenges, but it still seems you are not looking for a solution.  I mean this in the most objective, nonconfrontational way... Timesharing isn't for everyone.  Marriott isn't for everyone.  I usually tell my friends that it probably isn't for them, because I know them.  I know how they vacation, how they spend/do not want to spend money.  Only those that see how much our family has received from our ownership and really want to know more do I try to list all of the positives and negatives so they can make an informed decision.  You have an ownership(s) that you seem to be happy with and find value in.  Perhaps Marriott just isn't for you. 

"Just thoughts... so how do we hedge our bets against the coming tide of change and increasing MF?"
This is just an unavoidable fact of timesharing.  We will continue to work the system to our benefit as long as it is financially plausible for us.  We will be reaching retirement age in the next 10 years and we hope to be able to continue to enjoy many more years of our ownership at that time...especially at that time.  It would really hurt to have to give up our weeks, but on a fixed income who knows?


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 22, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Just thoughts... so how do we hedge our bets against the coming tide of change and increasing MF?



Sell and rent when you want to go. No risk, no hedging, no commitments. When the rent becomes unacceptable, stop renting. Rents are not going up as fast as MF and soon it might be more advantageous to rent than own. That is already the case with points. If you can rent points for pretty much the same as the MF for them, why even invest the money to own them ? Does not make economic sense. You can rent as much or little as you want, whenever you want with no commitment to do it again next year. Problem solved.

If it worries you that much that it is keeping you up, spending all your time analyzing and scrutinizing the company, worrying about how you’re going to afford it, you can’t afford it. Be done with it as the MF will be too unstable with your fixed income if you know it is going up way too fast for your liking.


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## Dean (Apr 22, 2019)

First, I'm unclear why the heated and passionate (and multiple) responses.  Former employee?  Former Marriott Timeshare sales?  Competitor sales?  While there is an element of truth to much of what you post, it reminds me of a sales presentation where many half truths are thrown around.  Marriott is a business and their responsibility in sales is to the business.  I know many here disagree but the reality is that EVERY resale is a POTENTIAL retail sale lost.  It is not their responsibility to support your or my resale options.  I've been in timeshares 25 years also owning a number of Marriott weeks as well as Bluegreen and DVC points.  I've participated in BBS about timeshares from before AG invented the internet including TUG for 20 years or more.  Fortunately most of my purchase were resale and in fact, the 4 retail purchases (2 MVC, 1 DVC, 1 BG) were all strategic and came from a full understanding of the product and resale.  I could sell all of my holdings and come out ahead overall if I wanted.  Timeshares have been among some of my best choices in life, I'll keep all this in mind when we have 50 people in Hilton Head this summer on the beach at a Marriott Timeshare when I'm covering the accommodations, something I could not have done without the timeshare options.  

The enrollment purchase dates have been documented.  They continue to offer enrollment options for those that qualify, often for free.  In addition, for the last 4 years (a portion of the year) they've offered enrollment options with a purchase of points or some weeks like the Caribbean.  



NotNew said:


> NYSE: VAC, go into the financials. When current owners are in arrears Marriott, passes these costs on to the owners as well as part of the MF. There are other examples.... drill down


Maint fees fall to the owners for owned weeks and those that pay will cover the fees for those that don't, this is how timeshares work including Hyatt. MVC is not responsible for those fees.  But they do pay the fees on the weeks/resorts they actually own, which is different that what's owned by the HOA.  



NotNew said:


> Lots of hidden expenses, costs and fees are being passed on to owners in the MF. At the same time, lots of monies collected from rental, etc dont make it back as credits to offset MF because Marriott milks them with exorbitant fees.
> 
> The points system has made it even easier to pass on these hidden costs and fees to owners rather Marriott itself having to pay these.


Points and costs are what they are.  They will increase and it's not a perfect system.  The biggest issue is they allow sales to sell every point like it's a prime week without guarantee of availability.  Thus it's you vs me for the best reservations.  We could all vote with our feet, some here have.



NotNew said:


> Again, talked to thousands of Marriott owners on other sites for YEARS, never heard of this until just now.


You haven't talked to the right groups, not sure what sites you were own but apparently they were not very educated when it comes to timeshares, esp Marriott.



NotNew said:


> LIMITED KNOWLEDGE? LOL. I've been a timeshare owner for 25 years.


Me to and your knowledge as posted is full of half truths and is very narrow in view.  Again, I'm unsure of your purpose or history.  

BTW, you didn't deny it when someone questioned whether you were previously posting similar information under a different registration.


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## frank808 (Apr 22, 2019)

Quadmaniac said:


> In all the timeshare presentations I’ve gone to, sometimes multiple times in certain locations, I’ve never given them my ID to hold onto. Whether it be Marriott, Westin, Sheraton, Hyatt, never once have they taken my ID. Most times they don’t even ask to see it. That’s how I know you lack a broad based experience of timeshares as you are probably basing it on one experience possible in Mexico or something. We can certainly take a survey to see how many users here have ever had the company take and hold onto your ID.
> 
> I’ve never had an issue getting anyone at the front desk. So again I call limited experience.


Never had my wifes or I id taken at marriott, Hilton or dvc sales office.  Although I am not invited to attend any at HHV anymore.  Also will not spend 1 sec at Marriott koolina for 5000 Marriott reward points.  Now if I can get a 25k mrp offer in Orlando I will sit through it.  Then when the salesperson sees my weeks of ownership, I always get asked why I am here.  Usually makes the presentations short at Marriott and Hilton when they finally look at printout with my ownerships.  

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## frank808 (Apr 22, 2019)

Also add that has been mentioned by many other previously.  If it wasn't for my Marriott timeshares I would have not been able to experience all these vacations and memories so cost effectively.  Saving money by vacationing more often is debatable.  

While we could not have gone and vacationed at these places for the cost of our maintenance and trade fees. We would have probably have not gone on so many vacations without timeshares.  

I say as long as you know what you are buying and use it effectively, it was a good purchase.  Fortunately or unfortunately that has led me to buy into hgvc, Marriott weeks and DVC timeshares.  Though the adventures and memories I make with my wife and son are priceless.  

Will have to stay at RC St Thomas one day like Greg has suggested.  We stop there 4 or 5 times a year on cruises and St. Thomas reminds me too much of home.  Have you stayed at Frenchman's Cove on St. Thomas?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## brianfox (Apr 22, 2019)

I've been a Marriott TS owner for 10 years, and the MF have risen quite a bit.
But they have kept in line with the increase in airline, car rental, fuel, entertainment, and dining costs associated with our vacation.
When I retire, it won't be the rising MF cost that will make me reconsider my vacation strategy.  It will be the overall rising cost of vacations that will make luxury vacations  harder to afford. The Marriott MF is only one piece of that puzzle.

The OP has come across as all hat and no cattle.


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## alohakevin (Apr 22, 2019)

NotNew said:


> NYSE: VAC, go into the financials. When current owners are in arrears Marriott, passes these costs on to the owners as well as part of the MF. There are other examples.... drill down



“owners are in arrears“ who ever is the owner pays the MF. If you were behind on your mortgage you still pay property tax. If the bank owns it they do. As example.

As far as Marriott reselling properties for profit. Why wouldnt they? Do you plan on selling your house for less than you paid for it?


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## BocaBoy (Apr 26, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Again, talked to thousands of Marriott owners on other sites for YEARS, never heard of this until just now.


We have sold multiple weeks back to Marriott, as well as using their brokered sales to sell two other properties.  At times, they have been very active in buying back weeks for the trust.


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## jme (Apr 26, 2019)

brianfox said:


> The OP has come across as all hat and no cattle.




I'll give you a "10" just for that quote.  

....not to mention you're also right about the rest.


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## SeaDoc (Apr 28, 2019)

Vacationing with MVWC has been rewarding.  Tonight’s sunset in Maui...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 28, 2019)

We are here at Ko Olina.  We stayed at Disney's Aulani and burned 50 DVC points on a 1 bedroom for a single night, which was very nice, but our two bedroom at the Marriott's Ko Olina is superb.  I would love to stay again, but I am still not a fan of Oahu.  I don't know what it is about Oahu.  It's just not what I want in a vacation.  We will go to the Polynesian Cultural Center, Pearl Harbor, and Dole Plantation while here.  I am excited to see all three of those, and we have a few drives to do as well.  

Also, I love Kauai, but I only love the Princeville area and don't really appreciate the southern parts of the island.  We have stayed at the Westin and Shearwater and love those experiences, but the Marriott resorts on the south side, I don't get excited about them at all.  It's not the resorts, it's the area.  I love Princeville, and that is all there is to it. 

We are going on a presentation tomorrow for Marriott.  I know they will have zero to say that will interest me, but I thought I would give it a shot.  It's been at least 10 years.  I will see what they have to say about ROFR.  I will also see what they have to say about our SBP ownership, if they even have a clue that we own it.


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## Quilter (Apr 28, 2019)

GregT said:


> I am also puzzled by this thread.
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Greg I'm just plum puzzled by this thread too!

Reading through the first page I wondered where this train of thought was going.   OP says he really wants to buy resale and then begins bashing the system.  To support his point of view he says he has 25 years of experience. 

Why does he even bother to invest so much time engaging with thousands on bulletin boards about Marriott?

If the OP is so convinced the MVC product is overpriced due to corporate greed, then it seems the best thing to do is tell him he shouldn't waste another moment thinking about it. 

Problem solved.


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 28, 2019)

Quilter said:


> Greg I'm just plum puzzled by this thread too!
> 
> Reading through the first page I wondered where this train of thought was going.   OP says he really wants to buy resale and then begins bashing the system.  To support his point of view he says he has 25 years of experience.
> 
> ...



Suggested the same as he was worried about affording it. The most predicable is for him to be not obligated and stressed by Marriott and their "greed" . Got absolute silence to that response, which might have been a blessing in disguise


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## l0410z (Apr 29, 2019)

Hypothetical numbers are nice but let's take a look at real numbers...

 In 1993 I rented at the Hilton hotel in Palmetto Dunes for about $870 for the week with my corporate discount.  The next year I rented privately at the Monarch for $1,100.   In 1995 I purchased the rented unit through Marriott resale for $12,000.  My MF was 420.  The Monarch has an owners website that lists all MF's since 1984.  From 1995 through 2019 (25 years) I paid about 22,800 in MF's and this includes all assessments. This comes out to about $915 per year.  In 2019 I rented my unit for 2900.  I have a fixed week so the Marriott Hotel for that week is 318 per night but again with my discount is comes out to 278 per plus 25 a day resort fee plus tax is  2,378.64.       In the early years I used and traded for MR. MR got me 130,000 points every year if I wanted that funded trips outside of timeshare.  In 2001 I did a 440,000 MR travel package 4 RT tickets anywhere in the world plus 14 days at any hotel.  MR is in my opinion a lot less value so now I rent it to go outside of timeshares.  I can make the numbers mean whatever I want to justify the point I want to make.  The fact is if I never purchased a timeshare I would still have vacationed with my family and traveled abroad.  I have no way of knowing what the costs might have been.

Let me add to the picture.  Let's talk about initial investment.  If  I took the 12,000 and put it into my company stock in 1995 it would be worth about 72,000 plus yearly dividends.   If I worked at Lehman Brothers it would be worth nothing.  No one has the crystal ball on how an investment will turn out so it is always a backward looking view.     

timeshares are no different.  I had no clue how it would turn out.    I added another summer Monarch week and an EOY  Grand Chateau.   My kids (28 and 31) love to travel.  We still go away as a family (to Aruba or HHI the last 5 years).  I figured out how to leverage what I own within the Marriott systems and outside of timeshares.  it was a great investment with a quantifiable return to the things I value.


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## jjking42 (May 1, 2019)

Not new 
I am sorry if your family members purchased retail from Marriott and are now struggling to keep up with MF increases while on a fixed income.

I am not a Marriott owner but used to be. I had family members that bought retail from Marriott in Ko Olina . They traveled for business with Marriott hotels and sometimes converted weeks to hotel points. Not a good idea but thier week not mine so whatever they want to do. They were able to sell that week on the resale market when they got too old to travel. 

Prior to buying my first Marriott I was invested in Wyndham and HGVC weeks that we’re all purchased resale. I only attended one Marriott sales presentation and it was the most low pressure I have been too. HGVC and Wyndham were both much higher pressure. 

I purchased my Marriott week for under 5000 and was able to rent it for enough to cover MF anytime I did not use it . I purchased it prior to Marriott introducing the points program. I had the chance to convert it to points system but thought the conversion was not a good deal. Having been used to HGVC and Wyndham points I did not like the skim Marriott was taking on the conversion. Example they would give me 90 points but charge me 100 to book the same week they gave me 90 for. Marriott bought back the week from me for the same price I paid resale when I purchased it. So they were buying weeks but only at resale prices. 

I have always used the same financial formula for timeshares and it has always worked out. I assume that I will not own it for more than 10 years and at the end of the 10 years it will be worth zero. 

I take the purchase price divided by 10 and add the MF to it and figure that’s my annual cost. If that is lower than market rental rates I buy it or hold it and if that price is higher I sell it or give it away ASAP. It a fairly conservative formula but it works for me. If after 10 years it still has resale value that just gravy on top. 

You have to be very careful what you buy. If it’s not a High demand week in a high demand location you may be upside down from day one. My formula prevents me from buying anything that will put me upside down. When my HGVC weeks went up on MF and I saw the rental price coming down I sold them  resale for what I payed for them. Rental prices and MF are so close now on many locations that most timeshares are not worth buying but some still are. 

If you want to buy into a points program and you don’t own fixed converted Marriott weeks that you bought resale before the conversion deadline than I would avoid Marriott points and look elsewhere. It might be strange with your family staying at Marriott and you somewhere else so maybe the best thing is just to rent marriotts when traveling with family.

Lots of Marriott owners are very happy with thier fixed resale weeks and I think that’s the best use of the Marriott system. I am not a fan of thier points program


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## 4Sunsets (May 2, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Would like to buy Marriott resales, really would, but every year, Marriott gets more greedy and devalues their own product while simultaneously artificially raising prices. From ~$10 a point a few years ago (at developer cost) to an artificially inflated ~$15 a point today (with absolutely NO market driving the increases except for corporate greed).
> 
> If timeshares are deeded real estate and the original purchaser already paid the developer costs. Why does Marriott make it impossible to resell and get back any of your investment? Hyatt, as an example, never did this, it was simply a few hundred $$$ for the transfer fees and the buyer retained all the value. Marriott takes all privileges away from those who buy resales, except the right to stay at home resort.
> 
> ...



I completely agree


----------



## TheTimeTraveler (May 2, 2019)

The OP hasn't been on here since April 22nd so I am not sure if he (or she) will ever be able to read any of these responses.

Maybe Marriott wasn't the right match after all.





.


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## Quilter (May 3, 2019)

jjking42 said:


> Not new
> I am sorry if your family members purchased retail from Marriott and are now struggling to keep up with MF increases while on a fixed income.



I had trouble following the train of thought expressed by Not New.   Where did you see his family was struggling with MF's?

I had more of the feeling his family had purchased and were enjoying their weeks.   It seemed Not New was disappointed he couldn't purchase a resale at a low price that suited him and was blaming the cost on corporate greed.   I felt the OP was so bitter towards Marriott for the way the corporation runs the business that a purchase would never be the right match.


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## jjking42 (May 3, 2019)

NotNew said:


> For me personally, maybe, but I have many family members in Marriott, so as I've said 25 years of experience with the system. Collectively they've spent SEVERAL fortunes in costs, fees, etc



This is the post that mention family member spending fortunes


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## jjking42 (May 3, 2019)

this is the post about MF going up and not being able to afford it


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## jjking42 (May 3, 2019)

"An interesting note. Put your current MF cost into a savings calculator at 5% with $0 deposits for 20 years to see where you'll be in terms of costs and what expense you wll be passing on to your family. Make sure to only compound interest annually. Here's one:

$2500 in MF in todays dollars turns into $6633 MF in 20 years.
$12000 in MF in todays dollars turns in $31889 MF in 20 years."

in the above he mentions passing on high MF to family.


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## bazzap (May 3, 2019)

jjking42 said:


> "An interesting note. Put your current MF cost into a savings calculator at 5% with $0 deposits for 20 years to see where you'll be in terms of costs and what expense you wll be passing on to your family. Make sure to only compound interest annually. Here's one:
> 
> $2500 in MF in todays dollars turns into $6633 MF in 20 years.
> $12000 in MF in todays dollars turns in $31889 MF in 20 years."
> ...


Superficially, these numbers may well look scary.
However:
- my MF’s have not been going up 5% over the last 15-20 years
- even if they do in future, whose to say that owners income will not rise similarly
- even if costs do prove too expensive at some point, there are always options to rent, sell, give away...


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## Quilter (May 3, 2019)

jjking42 said:


> This is the post that mention family member spending fortunes



When I read that same post I got the feeling the OP wanted what the other family members had (Marriott) but didn't want to pay his perception of the fortunes they were paying.   I visioned the family members enjoying their Marriott timeshares (hence, the OP's opinion they were paying fortunes).   I didn't see anything saying they were struggling to pay MF's.   The title of the thread gave me the opinion the OP wanted into the Marriott system.


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## Quilter (May 3, 2019)

jjking42 said:


> "An interesting note. Put your current MF cost into a savings calculator at 5% with $0 deposits for 20 years to see where you'll be in terms of costs and what expense you wll be passing on to your family. Make sure to only compound interest annually. Here's one:
> 
> $2500 in MF in todays dollars turns into $6633 MF in 20 years.
> $12000 in MF in todays dollars turns in $31889 MF in 20 years."
> ...



I read that as one of the OP's misperceptions.  There's no reason the MF's need to be passed on to family.   The weeks can be disposed of if family doesn't want them.


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## jjking42 (May 3, 2019)

I have copied below some of the OP comments that lead me to believe he was dealing with family members fixed income and raising MF in Hawaii.  He talks about not being able to afford MF and family members being told that rental prices would go up but instead MF doubled and rental price are the same last 10-15 years. He might be more interested in helping get his family member out of Marriott points. Maybe he wanted to take them over but found out the privileges don't transfer. For sure he hates the lying sales weasels. He wrote a lot about getting back your investment and blames the seller not the buyer. Retail timeshare are a bad investment and I feel for anyone that feels taken. Unfortunately it is buyer beware these days. 

"_Why does Marriott make it impossible to resell and get back any of your investment?

Points are also supposed to be real estate, but Marriott makes it even harder to resell points and get back any value.

Speaking of upfront costs: Having sat in on quite a few sales pitches, every salesman always tells my family members to forget about the monies they paid upfront and only calculate the cost based on their maintenance fees. As in "your 7-night Hawaii stay is only costing you $300 a night, your saving 60%)" "but what about the money paid upfront" i say. "you've already paid that and got back the value in previous stays" "point of fact: no we havent, in fact, when I calculate all up front costs, MF, and other fees, were paying $800 a night and we will continue paying $800 a night because the MF never go away and only increase over time" "no no that's not how it works, you dont understand the system."

I've never seen in point of actual fact that Marriott bought back anything and I've talked with thousands of current/former owners on other sites. If you say they did, you'd be the first I've ever heard of in 25 years.

Back to the point: It's important to know what MF are going to be in the future to see if you can afford them. You may be able to afford $12K in MF today but not $32K in 20 years (which is where 12K goes at 5% in 20 years primarily due to exorbitant management fees).

What I'm very interested in watching are MF on points... at current rate it looks like .60 (current MF cost) becomes $1 in 9 years. Then 7000 points for a Hawaii week are about par for just renting in the first place, especially interesting to me as family members were told some years ago rental prices would go way up by now... instead in 10-15 years since purchase of these properties the rental prices really havent changed all that much, meanwhile MF more than DOUBLED

Having been present during sales pitches for it... it was ABSOLUTELY a promise made and one made multiple times by multiple people at multiple locations.

They absolutely were promising it... the same way they promise you'll be able to go to XYZ because they're in the process of building it, even though XYZ might not open for 5 years (and not something they tell you).

Easy to say it's on the buyer, but we all know Marriott sales plays hardball even if they claim never to use hardball tactics. Try to leave a sales meeting, especially if they've promised you something to get you there. Or if you are at the almost sale phase and they have your ID. You aren't getting out of there.

We all want to believe in the pie they are selling us...

Lucky you. I wish my family started at resales, not full price."_


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## jjking42 (May 3, 2019)

I left of these two comments by OP

_"I'm not looking for financial return. I am looking to ensure that my family (extended and me) can continue to enjoy our vacations. The key issues here is the steady rise of MF and other costs/fees, when in all honesty over the past 10-12 years through the recession and such should not have continued at a steady rise of 3-5% / year IMHO. In it's steady march of 3-5%, we will be priced out of vacations at some point_

_Definitely, I hear what you are saying about prices... Main issue for us right now is fixed income. MF may double, but our fixed income will likely not change much.."

_


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## breezez (May 4, 2019)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> Clearly the Marriott program is not for you.....  Maybe Hyatt is a better fit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Technically Marriott owns the Hyatt Residence Club Program now too.


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## pwrshift (May 4, 2019)

Hey GregT...good to read your thoughts.  If I remember correctly I rented you one of my Marriott timeshares before you got knee deep into buying them.  I enjoyed my Marriott experiences, and saw the world flying biz class on some 9 million MR points earned over the years.  No regrets.

_[Edited - Ad-like comment should be taken to private conversation.]_

Take care,

Brian


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## Quilter (May 4, 2019)

pwrshift said:


> Hey GregT...good to read your thoughts.  If I remember correctly I rented you one of my Marriott timeshares before you got knee deep into buying them.  I enjoyed my Marriott experiences, and saw the world flying biz class on some 9 million MR points earned over the years.  No regrets.
> 
> [Edited ...]
> 
> ...



Hi Brian,

I know you addressed your post to GregT.   I hope you don't mind me weighing in here.

When you and I bought 20-20+ years ago the timeshares were coupled with a very nice MR program.   Even my worst high-priced developer Manor Club is still an ok buy because of travel incentives we received at the time of purchase.  Since it's a pre-2010 purchase it's now enrolled.   All for the exorbitant initial price of $18,900.  I use that week as a points generator.   It get's a stinky 2375 DC points.   That makes the purchase price of those DC points roughly $8.  Remember though, that purchase came with almost 600K MR points when 600K bought several premium travel packages.    MF's (as you well know) are $1418 so my MF per point is $.59.    With much time and experience I can recoup the MF and have some change in my pocket.      

GregT and others who have posted a way for the the OP to view the MVC program differently have figured out how to make it work for them.   From Greg's posts I never thought his purchases were impulsive.   It always seems he extensively researched and number crunched.   If I remember correctly he got into the system pre-DC.  

We got into the Marriott Vacation Club at a good time.   We have a fairly lucrative portfolio that recoups much of the MF's while offering adequate personal use.   We've been in long enough to obtain Titanium status in the Bonvoy program.   There's enough activity to generate a decent accumulation of Bonvoy points (although the benefits have diminished significantly).

My point is the current MVC is not the one I bought, or the one most of us who bought pre-2010.   It's flexible.   The resorts are grand.   It's expensive.   Working the system is not for the faint-of-heart.  

I was lost in most of the points the OP made about the corporate greed.   Maybe yes.  Maybe no.   I probably will never know because I'm enjoying my narrow view of our ownership.   All I know is that we got in at the right place and right time.   Today's developer program or even the hybrid sales would not be a match for us.   So that would leave us with non-enrolled resales.  It would be a whole different timesharing world that I can't even wrap my head around. 

The OP said he's been in the timeshare world for 25 years.   Sounds to me if he got into the right resort 25 years ago he'd have the purchase he's looking for today.   I don't see that as a possibility.


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## frank808 (May 4, 2019)

jjking42 said:


> "An interesting note. Put your current MF cost into a savings calculator at 5% with $0 deposits for 20 years to see where you'll be in terms of costs and what expense you wll be passing on to your family. Make sure to only compound interest annually. Here's one:
> 
> $2500 in MF in todays dollars turns into $6633 MF in 20 years.
> $12000 in MF in todays dollars turns in $31889 MF in 20 years."
> ...



If OP is scared of paying $32k in mf, he would have had a heart attack if he saw my Marriott MF bill this past December.  

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## bogey21 (May 4, 2019)

Back in the late 80s I made the best move I ever made buying a TimeShare Week.  I paid $25,000 for a premium Monarch Crown Suite Week.  My wife and I and 3 kids used it and loved it for 5 or 6 years.  But times changed.  When the writing was on the wall that it was getting down to just my wife and I, the annually increasing MFs (2 times regular Monarch units) made it impractical to retain ownership and I sold our Week for over $40,000.  If buying the Week was one of my best moves, selling it was an even better one.  I can't even start to imagine what the current MFs (both regular and special assessments) would be costing me.  The moral of my story is when your Week (or Points) no longer suit your needs, sell immediately.  Waiting will not normally improve the outcome...

George


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## VacationForever (May 4, 2019)

We feel that we pay alot in MF but it is a matter of perspective.  We had to cancel a recent cruise due to illness and I am working on insurance claim as I type and I am also tracking refundable costs.  Assuming we get everything back, we will feel richer by $14K + 80K Chase UR rewards (one way domestic air fare).  We did 2 cruises last year and it came to about $40K including business class airfare.  MFs appear cheap all of a sudden.


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## BocaBoy (May 4, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> Do you know for a fact that MVC does not pay MF on unsold points in the trust?


Of course they do.  The OP made a number of factual mistakes in his post.


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## Dean (May 4, 2019)

BocaBoy said:


> Of course they do.  The OP made a number of factual mistakes in his post.


Including this one. 





> So my long rant on all this... Looking forward to hearing yours as well as opposing views.





> Thanks also for getting the conversation started. Really do want all viewpoints!!


This smells of troll to me.  He creates a new account and swoops in, with a lot of quasi knowledge but poor use and/or understanding of it, or more likely, purposeful misstatement of the information and tries to come across as having inside knowledge.  Posts 70 times rapid fire then is gone 2 days later.  The feel is that of competitor and/or former disgruntled salesperson or management.  It was suggested he might have registered previously with a somewhat similar rant which he laughed off but did not deny.  Administrators could likely see if the IP has been used previously though it really doesn't make much difference other than maybe to block it.


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## pwrshift (May 4, 2019)

Quilter said:


> Hi Brian,
> 
> I know you addressed your post to GregT.   I hope you don't mind me weighing in here. ...



Don't mind at all Quilter and so nice to hear from you again after all these years.  We had fun back then amassing out MR point base.  While I joined the DC club I've never used it.  Years have gone by fast and my holiday needs have changed with the recent passing of my wife.  Take care, Brian.


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## SueDonJ (May 5, 2019)

pwrshift said:


> Don't mind at all Quilter and so nice to hear from you again after all these years.  We had fun back then amassing out MR point base.  While I joined the DC club I've never used it.  Years have gone by fast and my holiday needs have changed with the recent passing of my wife.  Take care, Brian.



I'm sorry to hear about your wife, Brian. Peace to you and your family.


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## catvag (May 5, 2019)

NotNew said:


> Would like to buy Marriott resales, really would, but every year, Marriott gets more greedy and devalues their own product while simultaneously artificially raising prices. From ~$10 a point a few years ago (at developer cost) to an artificially inflated ~$15 a point today (with absolutely NO market driving the increases except for corporate greed).
> 
> If timeshares are deeded real estate and the original purchaser already paid the developer costs. Why does Marriott make it impossible to resell and get back any of your investment? Hyatt, as an example, never did this, it was simply a few hundred $$$ for the transfer fees and the buyer retained all the value. Marriott takes all privileges away from those who buy resales, except the right to stay at home resort.
> 
> ...


Marriott


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## catvag (May 5, 2019)

Marriot was "generous" enough to buy back our 3 Hawaii weeks for about 30 cents on the dollar.  Now they won't even offer a buy back for Marriott Aruba Surf Club; when we bought there we could use all pool and escape to Ocean Club where we wanted to buy in the 1st place.  Now they "voted" on a change so we have to be at crowded Surf Club pool with screaming little monsters and worse parents.  Would never buy a Marriott again.


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## Quadmaniac (May 5, 2019)

catvag said:


> Marriot was "generous" enough to buy back our 3 Hawaii weeks for about 30 cents on the dollar.  Now they won't even offer a buy back for Marriott Aruba Surf Club; when we bought there we could use all pool and escape to Ocean Club where we wanted to buy in the 1st place.  Now they "voted" on a change so we have to be at crowded Surf Club pool with screaming little monsters and worse parents.  Would never buy a Marriott again.



With all due respect, Marriott is a business to make money. Any business is there to make money. I think it would be unrealistic for them to buy it back at say 75% when initially the profit margin was probably at least 60%. So they should give up their profit on a sale they made as you changed your mind or changed your ability to use it ? So how would a company survive if their profits can be clawed back whenever someone changed their mind ? 

Now at 30 cents on the dollar, they are probably buying it close what their cost was and they can mark it up to resell it again at say 80% of the original price. Again making profit off of it for the labor and established sales system. They are not obligated to buy it all, they are essentially helping you, where they do not have to at all but it is an opportunity for profit so its worth their time. If they are going to resell the product and take the risk of it not selling for awhile and keeping it in stock, would it not be reasonable for them to leave some room for this ? Would you expect this of your car dealership for example if you bought a car from there and wanted to return it to them after using it or your builder who sold you your house ?

In terms of Surf and Ocean Club, that was a benefit that would be subject to change like anything else. Even your usage can change. If you really wanted Ocean Club, that is probably where you should have bought to get what you want. Not trying to down play your complaints, but some of your expectations may not be reasonable expectations of a business. Just my 2 cents on it from both a business owner and a Marriott unit owner & consumer.


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## pwrshift (May 6, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your wife, Brian. Peace to you and your family.


 
Thanks Sue.  It's been a tough time for me, and my adult kids, to adjust to our loss. 

Brian


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## Quilter (May 6, 2019)

catvag said:


> Marriot was "generous" enough to buy back our 3 Hawaii weeks for about 30 cents on the dollar.  Now they won't even offer a buy back for Marriott Aruba Surf Club; when we bought there we could use all pool and escape to Ocean Club where we wanted to buy in the 1st place.  Now they "voted" on a change so we have to be at crowded Surf Club pool with screaming little monsters and worse parents.  Would never buy a Marriott again.



I'm curious, what made you go for the Surf Club purchase instead of the Ocean Club?

Can you exchange your Surf Club into Ocean Club via II?   Another option would be to turn the Surf Club into DC points and reserve that way?


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## Dean (May 6, 2019)

catvag said:


> Marriot was "generous" enough to buy back our 3 Hawaii weeks for about 30 cents on the dollar.  Now they won't even offer a buy back for Marriott Aruba Surf Club; when we bought there we could use all pool and escape to Ocean Club where we wanted to buy in the 1st place.  Now they "voted" on a change so we have to be at crowded Surf Club pool with screaming little monsters and worse parents.  Would never buy a Marriott again.


Why didn't you just buy OC.  Did you not know you could ask and potentially hold out for that option over the SC?  One should have known the option to use the other facilities was at risk and not contractual.


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## cyntravel (May 6, 2019)

pwrshift said:


> Don't mind at all Quilter and so nice to hear from you again after all these years.  We had fun back then amassing out MR point base.  While I joined the DC club I've never used it.  Years have gone by fast and my holiday needs have changed with the recent passing of my wife.  Take care, Brian.



So sorry to hear. Prayers to you and your family.


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## brianfox (May 6, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> We feel that we pay alot in MF but it is a matter of perspective.  We had to cancel a recent cruise due to illness and I am working on insurance claim as I type and I am also tracking refundable costs.  Assuming we get everything back, we will feel richer by $14K + 80K Chase UR rewards (one way domestic air fare).  We did 2 cruises last year and it came to about $40K including business class airfare.  MFs appear cheap all of a sudden.


Sorry you had to cancel your trip.  I am very interested in knowing how your trip insurance claim goes.  Perhaps you can start a thread and share if possible?  I purchase every year and always dread the day I have to use it.


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## VacationForever (May 6, 2019)

brianfox said:


> Sorry you had to cancel your trip.  I am very interested in knowing how your trip insurance claim goes.  Perhaps you can start a thread and share if possible?  I purchase every year and always dread the day I have to use it.



There are many types of travel insurance plans.  I used to buy from Allianz in the first 14 days when I put a deposit down.  I made a claim on that 2 years ago when I fell sick on a transatlantic cruise.  The claim was doctor's bill and non-refundable excursions.  It was fairly painless but the key is to inform the travel agent who sold you the insurance asap.  

I buy Marriott travel insurance each year but have not needed to utilize it.

Since we started carrying the Chase Sapphire Reserve card in late 2017, we stopped buying individual travel insurance.  It does not waive pre-existing condition and offers secondary coverage only.  We feel that it is sufficient knowing our health situation.  Pre-existing condition is for treatment of a health condition in 60 days prior to when deposit was placed for travel.  Prescription medications are fine.  We are working on putting in a claim with Chase Sapphire Reserve now.

We also buy GeoBlue Trekker Choice annually for international travel which includes pre-existing conditions. It covers high amount coverage for medical and emergency evacuation .  This is a critical insurance which that we feel that is needed for international travel.


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## DeeCee (May 8, 2019)

I only read some of this thread from the beginning. So, sorry if this was mentioned and I missed it. Doesn’t Marriott have an exit program? Is that the current buyback option? Does anyone know anything about it?  Not thinking of using it, just curious. (Which is why I haven’t called them)


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## Fasttr (May 8, 2019)

DeeCee said:


> I only read some of this thread from the beginning. So, sorry if this was mentioned and I missed it. Doesn’t Marriott have an exit program? Is that the current buyback option? Does anyone know anything about it?  Not thinking of using it, just curious. (Which is why I haven’t called them)


Just a rebranded resale department.  https://www.marriottvacationclub.com/exit/


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## Saintsfanfl (May 11, 2019)

SeaDoc said:


> Marriott has offered to purchase two of my platinum shadow ridge weeks, if I so choose.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I talked to Marriott yesterday and they said they won't buy a Shadow Ridge platinum unit right now and not even for $1. They were a couple years ago but I think they have enough points inventory right now and have tightened up considerably.


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## csodjd (May 12, 2019)

jjking42 said:


> "An interesting note. Put your current MF cost into a savings calculator at 5% with $0 deposits for 20 years to see where you'll be in terms of costs and what expense you wll be passing on to your family. Make sure to only compound interest annually. Here's one:
> 
> $2500 in MF in todays dollars turns into $6633 MF in 20 years.
> $12000 in MF in todays dollars turns in $31889 MF in 20 years."
> ...


The market will have something to say about that. MF are not a blank check existing in a vacuum. Someone must pay them. When they are "too high" sales will drop, defaults will rise, and Marriott will have to respond. Until that happens, fair market value is controlling.


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## luv2vacation (May 19, 2019)

Quadmaniac said:


> I bought all my timeshares resale and they're making me money renting them out.



Have been trying to rent a very high demand beach week for months now, to no avail.  Please, any advice you have on renting strategy, like best place to advertise, especially, would be very much appreciated.


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## TXTortoise (May 19, 2019)

luv2vacation said:


> Have been trying to rent a very high demand beach week for months now, to no avail.  Please, any advice you have on renting strategy, like best place to advertise, especially, would be very much appreciated.



To give context to high demand and urgency, which resort and week?  The two most common listing sites are Redweek and VacationCandy.com, with VC offering an option for it to be included on VRBO.com and affiliates.


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## luv2vacation (May 19, 2019)

TXTortoise said:


> To give context to high demand and urgency, which resort and week?  The two most common listing sites are Redweek and VacationCandy.com, with VC offering an option for it to be included on VRBO.com and affiliates.



Sent you a PM with details of week.


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## JIMinNC (May 19, 2019)

jjking42 said:


> "An interesting note. Put your current MF cost into a savings calculator at 5% with $0 deposits for 20 years to see where you'll be in terms of costs and what expense you wll be passing on to your family. Make sure to only compound interest annually. Here's one:
> 
> $2500 in MF in todays dollars turns into $6633 MF in 20 years.
> $12000 in MF in todays dollars turns in $31889 MF in 20 years."
> ...



But in 20 years, everything else will be more expensive too, and salaries will grow as well. You can't just look at maintenance fees in isolation. What you need to compare is how fast maintenance fees rise versus hotel rooms and condo rentals. If maintenance fees rise faster, then owning becomes less advantageous. If they rise at similar rates, then the basic relationship remains unchanged.


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## Fredflintstone (May 19, 2019)

I hear your rant. Sadly, I think arrogance across the timeshare industry comes from the belief that since you signed on the dotted line agreeing to them changing terms at anytime, they feel anything goes.

They don’t care if you feel it’s a gouge because if you don’t like it, you can try to rid yourself of it and the next guy pays whatever they want.

They don’t care that they are priced out of reason because you locked yourself in.

It almost feels like once you sign the papers, the bare butt caning begins...year after year.

In my view, greed and this attitude will destroy the timeshare concept if it continues. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Quadmaniac (May 19, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> I hear your rant. Sadly, I think arrogance across the timeshare industry comes from the belief that since you signed on the dotted line agreeing to them changing terms at anytime, they feel anything goes.
> 
> They don’t care if you feel it’s a gouge because if you don’t like it, you can try to rid yourself of it and the next guy pays whatever they want.
> 
> ...



I don't think it is as simple as you have put it but in some respects yes, once you buy it, you're locked in. Not any different from buying a house and once you do, its yours. If the maintenance costs go up, it is an added cost. If it becomes un-affordable in your eyes, then really all you can do is try to sell. 

The fees have been going up about 3-4% for most resorts and I would expect that to be normal. Timesharing is not for everyone and if this doesn't suit you, then its time to sell. I think it is important to keep in mind that these companies, like every other business, is in it to make money and you seemed surprised that they are making money off of you. They're certainly not going to do it for free. You don't work for free, so you expect them to ? If they don't make money, they go out of business and then your timeshares are in limbo if no one is operating it.


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## Fredflintstone (May 19, 2019)

Quadmaniac said:


> I don't think it is as simple as you have put it but in some respects yes, once you buy it, you're locked in. Not any different from buying a house and once you do, its yours. If the maintenance costs go up, it is an added cost. If it becomes un-affordable in your eyes, then really all you can do is try to sell.
> 
> The fees have been going up about 3-4% for most resorts and I would expect that to be normal. Timesharing is not for everyone and if this doesn't suit you, then its time to sell. I think it is important to keep in mind that these companies, like every other business, is in it to make money and you seemed surprised that they are making money off of you. They're certainly not going to do it for free. You don't work for free, so you expect them to ? If they don't make money, they go out of business and then your timeshares are in limbo if no one is operating it.



I agree with you. If you don’t like the increased fees, reduction of benefits or any other changes or adjustments, you need to get out.

You signed a contract stating they can change terms at anytime so live with it or get out.

My main point is if they get greedy, people will get out at some point and this could harm the timeshare industry as a whole.

Making money is good and I’m all for that. My problem with timeshares is getting out is harder unlike selling your house or just going somewhere else to do business because timeshares are harder to get out of. In other words, If you don’t agree, pulling the plug is challenging. In the house example, you are not needing to lose 90 percent plus of what you paid to get out.

Yes, I rent only because I hate being locked in and enjoy choice. I do respect those who own and love it. Different strokes, different folks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Quadmaniac (May 19, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> My main point is if they get greedy, people will get out at some point and this could harm the timeshare industry as a whole.
> 
> Making money is good and I’m all for that. My problem with timeshares is getting out is harder unlike selling your house or just going somewhere else to do business because timeshares are harder to get out of. In the house example, you are not needing to lose 90 percent plus of what you paid to get out.
> 
> Yes, I rent only because I hate being locked in and enjoy choice. I do respect those who own and love it. Different strokes, different folks.



If the fees were going up 15-20% I would agree, but I think my household costs go up by 3-4% every year as well.

In terms of the house, I would beg to differ as in some markets, the bottom has fallen out of the housing market and it is not uncommon to hear that someone's mortgage is upside down, losing all of their equity. It has happened and will happen again.

For some, renting works out better for them and there is nothing wrong with that if that gets you what you want.


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## Dean (May 19, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> I agree with you. If you don’t like the increased fees, reduction of benefits or any other changes or adjustments, you need to get out.
> 
> You signed a contract stating they can change terms at anytime so live with it or get out.
> 
> ...


Fees are based on real costs plus a % for management, not greed.  Back when housing prices were going down as much as 50% we still saw fee increases in the range we're seeing them now.  There were some savings on the management side as contractors were more desperate but not as much as you'd think.


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## Fredflintstone (May 19, 2019)

The term value is subjective. Where one says its value, the other will say “its too much” or greedy. 

Those that believe the costs are too high should simply sell and move on. 

If the majority of owners are satisfied with the fees and benefits, the delinquency rates will be very low. If not, they go up. If the market determines fees are too high, buyers will dry up. 

In the end, its the owners overall that make that decision and act accordingly. 

Its a balancing act.




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## Dean (May 19, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> The term value is subjective. Where one says its value, the other will say “its too much” or greedy.
> 
> Those that believe the costs are too high should simply sell and move on.
> 
> ...


To a degree but in reality timeshares are generally sold not bought.  Market forces don't fit very well into Timeshares for several reasons including that they are a fringe item much like a collectible.


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## Fredflintstone (May 19, 2019)

Dean said:


> To a degree but in reality timeshares are generally sold not bought.  Market forces don't fit very well into Timeshares for several reasons including that they are a fringe item much like a collectible.



I think they do. As one board member of a resort said

If the Owners aren’t happy, the bills don’t get paid

If the bills don’t get paid, the resort dies.    


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## Dean (May 19, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> I think they do. As one board member of a resort said
> 
> If the Owners aren’t happy, the bills don’t get paid
> 
> ...


It's not that they don't apply but that they do not function very efficiently with timeshares.


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## csodjd (May 19, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> I agree with you. If you don’t like the increased fees, reduction of benefits or any other changes or adjustments, you need to get out.
> 
> You signed a contract stating they can change terms at anytime so live with it or get out.
> 
> ...


Don't you think that your observations and complaints have been the case for years, even decades. 25 years ago, when MF were a fraction of what they are today, I'm guessing the owners bitched about the MF just as they do today. And they'll be doing it 25 years from now. Human nature. Nonetheless, there is an active market for some of the most expensive timeshares. I wish they were less. But they are FAR less than what it would cost me for a week with a comparable room at a comparable location (I'm in Maui, oceanfront, 2-BR). Heck, I paid $1300/nt for an OF room at the St. Regis in Princeville. And I paid about $350 the other night for an Embassy Suites 1-bed studio in Sacramento. The rental for my Maui room is about 2-2.5x my MF.


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## dioxide45 (May 19, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> But in 20 years, everything else will be more expensive too, and salaries will grow as well. You can't just look at maintenance fees in isolation. What you need to compare is how fast maintenance fees rise versus hotel rooms and condo rentals. If maintenance fees rise faster, then owning becomes less advantageous. If they rise at similar rates, then the basic relationship remains unchanged.


Of course in an economic downturn, hotel rates will almost always drop. However, MF increases don't skip a beat and usually increase faster because of the increasing number of defaults.


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## Fredflintstone (May 19, 2019)

csodjd said:


> Don't you think that your observations and complaints have been the case for years, even decades. 25 years ago, when MF were a fraction of what they are today, I'm guessing the owners bitched about the MF just as they do today. And they'll be doing it 25 years from now. Human nature. Nonetheless, there is an active market for some of the most expensive timeshares. I wish they were less. But they are FAR less than what it would cost me for a week with a comparable room at a comparable location (I'm in Maui, oceanfront, 2-BR). Heck, I paid $1300/nt for an OF room at the St. Regis in Princeville. And I paid about $350 the other night for an Embassy Suites 1-bed studio in Sacramento. The rental for my Maui room is about 2-2.5x my MF.



Yes. People always complain on things. The way to know when MFs are over the top is when owners act by not paying in droves forcing the resort to either recalibrate or die. 

Talk will always be there. Its when it turns to people refusing to pay in good numbers is when it becomes a problem.   


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## Fredflintstone (May 19, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> Of course in an economic downturn, hotel rates will almost always drop. However, MF increases don't skip a beat and usually increase faster because of the increasing number of defaults.



...which results in the resort possibly dying. 


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## csodjd (May 19, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> Yes. People always complain on things. The way to know when MFs are over the top is when owners act by not paying in droves forcing the resort to either recalibrate or die.
> 
> Talk will always be there. Its when it turns to people refusing to pay in good numbers is when it becomes a problem.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Exactly. Fair market value operating as it should.


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## Fredflintstone (May 19, 2019)

csodjd said:


> Exactly. Fair market value operating as it should.



 precisely


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## JIMinNC (May 19, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> Of course in an economic downturn, hotel rates will almost always drop. However, MF increases don't skip a beat and usually increase faster because of the increasing number of defaults.



Yep, because hotel rates have a demand/market driven component (in addition to costs), whereas maintenance fees are basically cost pass through, and many costs still go up, even in a downturn, and as you noted with defaults, some costs go up dramatically.


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## vacationtime1 (May 19, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> Of course in an economic downturn, hotel rates will almost always drop. However, MF increases don't skip a beat and usually increase faster because of the increasing number of defaults.



True, but in a strong economy, hotels and resorts can increase rents by as much as the traffic will bear.  

The most accurate way of comparing the two (% changes in MF's to % changes in hotel rates) is to measure the relative change over a full economic cycle.


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## Fredflintstone (May 20, 2019)

vacationtime1 said:


> True, but in a strong economy, hotels and resorts can increase rents by as much as the traffic will bear.
> 
> The most accurate way of comparing the two (% changes in MF's to % changes in hotel rates) is to measure the relative change over a full economic cycle.



To me, you pay a higher rate of rent in good times but you can stop renting at anytime. Even though the cost is higher, the price you pay is in lieu of being locked in year after year.

Although it could be argued that one benefits from owning a timeshare when times are good because their MFs gradually rise versus spike rent, they get smoked when the economy sours. Why?  The guy who rented and has less resources in a downturn can simply stop vacationing and thus stop the costs. An MF owner keeps getting the bills that are rising regardless of whether they still have a job or not. They are also left with 2 options if the MFs are killing them. They can either attempt to sell which is harder in an economic downturn or stop paying the MF. Unlike the renter, they could face credit destruction from the pending foreclosure. We saw a huge spike of defaults in 2008 coupled with some MFs going to the moon as a result to support the rising defaults.


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## csodjd (May 20, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> To me, you pay a higher rate of rent in good times but you can stop renting at anytime. Even though the cost is higher, the price you pay is in lieu of being locked in year after year.
> 
> Although it could be argued that one benefits from owning a timeshare when times are good because their MFs gradually rise versus spike rent, they get smoked when the economy sours. Why?  The guy who rented and has less resources in a downturn can simply stop vacationing and thus stop the costs. An MF owner keeps getting the bills that are rising regardless of whether they still have a job or not. They are also left with 2 options if the MFs are killing them. They can either attempt to sell which is harder in an economic downturn or stop paying the MF. Unlike the renter, they could face credit destruction from the pending foreclosure. We saw a huge spike of defaults in 2008 coupled with some MFs going to the moon as a result to support the rising defaults.
> 
> ...


Sometimes I wonder if any of you actually use your timeshare for, like, a vacation. I purchased mine to almost force me to go to Hawaii for a few weeks every year. I'm not even sure how to value that. But I know it's not via MF costs.


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## Dean (May 20, 2019)

csodjd said:


> Sometimes I wonder if any of you actually use your timeshare for, like, a vacation. I purchased mine to almost force me to go to Hawaii for a few weeks every year. I'm not even sure how to value that. But I know it's not via MF costs.


Let me see.  Since you've been a member of TUG (around 2 years), I've had the following trips using timeshares that I recall off the top of my head.

HH trip with 51 people

3 week HI trip 15 people
Aruba 4 couples
9 days St. Augustine/Daytona 2 couples
A number of long weekends St. Augustine, Destin, Panama City Beach.
Disney on property X2 with immediate family
Gatlinburg 4 couples
Longboat Key, Naples, Marco Island & back to St. Pete beach 2 weeks

Upcoming already booked or exchange matched

HH - 50-56 people
LV - 2 couples
HH 2020 also large group
But IMO one must pay attention to the $$$ cost and risk as well as the other benefits, risk and aggravations.  Timeshares have allowed me to do things I could not have done otherwise.  For those trips I have previously or will cover all of the accommodations including 3 HHI trips to Grande Ocean with 9-10 villas.  When you say "forced" I assume it's something you want to do and the timeshares reminds you to do so routinely.


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## jme (May 20, 2019)

I think sometimes that many individuals here have no clue as to the HOW or WHY we timeshare owners do things.
While touting "renting" they might be missing the point that we all rented for many years before we delved
into the timeshare world........Do they for one second think we didn't?  Or that as empty-nesters we still don't at all?
But most of us abandoned renting because we wanted more, and we got more and will continue to get more.
A 2 or 3BR condo will always be superior to a hotel room.

(I am not ignorant of the various options out there---we use Airbnbs, too, for select trips like Italy this past October,
but they can be more uncertain and ill-defined, and the potential
for huge disappointments are always present. Thankfully, due to my homework, we had a fantastic experience.
With timeshares, though, to a high degree we know exactly what we're walking in to.
We also use hotel stays during the year, but the costs limit the time tremendously....say for instance
our upcoming October trips to the Omni Mount Washington Resort in New Hampshire and our stay at the
Woodstock Inn in Woodstock Vermont, and accompanied by some time in Boston using Rewards Points.
The cost for those are close to prohibitive, but something we wanted to do.
The point is, timeshares more than meet our needs for most adventures, but not always.
We still have a limited but parallel life in the "renters' world", but it continues to show its frequently oppressive financial side.)

Dean, my new hero, just presented a long list of impressive plans, quite a notch above most, but not so far removed from
what many timeshare owners are experiencing (and can arrange) month after month and year after year.
The naysayers don't often hear or know about what all we have at our disposal, i.e., deals that a renter
cannot pull off.  The further we timeshare owners go over time, the lower the costs
(we basically travel now on maintenance fees only), but the renters' graphs continually trend upward.

Our MF graphs also follow a similar path but at a lower cost, and yes, they must go up, understood,
but have you seen the hotel rates lately, even the mid-level and lower-level brands?
We had wonderful vacations in hotels before timeshares, but they cannot compare with what we've had
over the past 20 years for our families, not to mention the amazing destinations we've visited more easily
"in the system" since we used our timeshares.
I honestly think the haters shout much louder than those who are enjoying life quietly via
quality timeshare-related vacations.


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## Dean (May 20, 2019)

jme said:


> Dean, my new hero, just presented a long list of impressive plans, quite a notch above most, but not so far removed from
> what many timeshare owners are experiencing (and can arrange) month after month and year after year.
> The naysayers don't often hear or know about what all we have at our disposal, i.e., deals that a renter
> cannot pull off. The further we timeshare owners go over time, the lower the costs
> (we basically travel now on maintenance fees only), but the renters' graphs continually trend upward.


The the best part is we're at HHI no less, obviously one of your favorites.  What I often tell people is timeshares don't save me money but they allow me to do things I could not do otherwise for a controlled cost.  

Marty, one thing you referenced (if I read it correctly), but didn't expand on, is this.  If you are well educated and proactive (both up front and ongoing) you can often do very well with timeshares.  The reverse, not so much.  So if you are educated before buying, make good choices, learn the system and plan ahead; one can do very well.  If you buy retail, don't learn the system, are passive, don't plan ahead and miss deadlines, timeshares will not be a blessing.  It's very much a me against them system and Marriott is no different.  For example, I have 10 units at MGO this summer and next for a high demand week.  That's 7 units from weeks inventory and 3 from points inventory not available to others and next year 9 from weeks (already reserved) and hopefully 1 or 2 from points but the reservation window hasn't yet opened for the week in question.  That's what makes TUG so great is the willingness to share even though sharing might have some negatives for those that are well educated otherwise though much of that education will come from TUG or similar.


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## Quadmaniac (May 20, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> To me, you pay a higher rate of rent in good times but you can stop renting at anytime. Even though the cost is higher, the price you pay is in lieu of being locked in year after year.
> 
> Although it could be argued that one benefits from owning a timeshare when times are good because their MFs gradually rise versus spike rent, they get smoked when the economy sours. Why?  The guy who rented and has less resources in a downturn can simply stop vacationing and thus stop the costs. An MF owner keeps getting the bills that are rising regardless of whether they still have a job or not. They are also left with 2 options if the MFs are killing them. They can either attempt to sell which is harder in an economic downturn or stop paying the MF. Unlike the renter, they could face credit destruction from the pending foreclosure. We saw a huge spike of defaults in 2008 coupled with some MFs going to the moon as a result to support the rising defaults.



I would probably say is the amount I have saved way way outweighs the potential risk of being locked into my timeshares. There is no way I could travel for $700-900 a week in Hawaii at the Marriott or Westin in a 2 br unit. Multiply that by the number of weeks I have gone and I am in positive vs renting for many years. This does not include the money I make from renting the weeks I own out as they're specific holiday weeks that are in high demand. I travel for free every year now and make money from them. Taking into consideration the flights and costs while I am there, I would bet I break even if I take those costs into account. Timeshares have been the best thing for me thus far owning. It's all about understanding the system and working with it. Those who fail to take the time to truly look into the ins and outs miss out, will result in complaints that the system doesn't work.

The maintenance fees are what they are. I don't see them as being unreasonable.


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## Fredflintstone (May 20, 2019)

Although I respect those who choose the timeshare lifestyle, I too have learned over the years not to get locked in. I agree TUG is a great platform to learn. No, I’m not a hater of timeshares. Many of the resorts are beautiful places. I just simply enjoy the freedom to base my trips on price. Just for comparison, here is where I have stayed this past winter with costs.

1. September 14 to 21. Maui Ocean Club. A last minute rental on TUG. 2 bedroom, ocean front.  Cost 800.00

2. Puerto Vallarta November 12 to 21. Stayed at friendly Vallarta. Cost 1100.00 all in. This included flights, all meals, drinks, airport transfer and ocean front room.

3. Las Vegas January 10 to 15. Airbnb. 2 bedroom condo. 3 blocks from strip. 200.00

4. Hono Kona Lahaina Hawaii. February 18-25. Rented the week for 600.00 on redweek. 2 bedroom ocean front.

I have read many different threads of owners here loving their weeks in awesome resorts and sharing their experiences. Those are the threads I enjoy the most. It’s wonderful to see others enjoying life.

So, I don’t think it’s educated versus uneducated. I personally don’t hate timeshares. I just prefer to rent as I believe with careful planning I can do better than owning.

When I do rent a timeshare, I enjoy talking to the community of owners as well. They are wonderful people. That is another reason I joined TUG.






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## Ralph Sir Edward (May 20, 2019)

It all depends on why you are travelling.

If what you want is vacations always at some place new, and have absolutely no time constraints, then grabbing bargains is the way to go.

If, on the other hand, you are like me, and want a surrogate second home for a month at a block at a particular location, with no moving from week to week, then owning is the only way to be able to do that consistently.


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## Fredflintstone (May 20, 2019)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> It all depends on why you are travelling.
> 
> If what you want is vacations always at some place new, and have absolutely no time constraints, then grabbing bargains is the way to go.
> 
> If, on the other hand, you are like me, and want a surrogate second home for a month at a block at a particular location, with no moving from week to week, then owning is the only way to be able to do that consistently.



Yes, some folks like consistency and predictability and in that case, owning makes total sense. 


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## Quadmaniac (May 20, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> Although I respect those who choose the timeshare lifestyle, I too have learned over the years not to get locked in. I agree TUG is a great platform to learn. No, I’m not a hater of timeshares. Many of the resorts are beautiful places. I just simply enjoy the freedom to base my trips on price. Just for comparison, here is where I have stayed this past winter with costs.
> 
> 1. September 14 to 21. Maui Ocean Club. A last minute rental on TUG. 2 bedroom, ocean front.  Cost 800.00
> 
> ...



There are always bargains but the problem being is that they're not consistently there enough to regularly say I can go for cheaper. Finding a system where you can reliably makes a huge difference.


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## Fredflintstone (May 20, 2019)

Quadmaniac said:


> There are always bargains but the problem being is that they're not consistently there enough to regularly say I can go for cheaper. Finding a system where you can reliably makes a huge difference.



The only thing that isn’t consistent is getting one particular place. For example, I planned to go to Maui in September. I spent hours looking at various sites for deals. I ended up with Maui Ocean Club. I have never had trouble finding cheap accommodation in any location yet. But, I have to scour to find them.

Personally, I find it fun not knowing where I am staying next. All I care about is the location and the time I have chosen.


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## JIMinNC (May 20, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> The only thing that isn’t consistent is getting one particular place. For example, I planned to go to Maui in September. I spent hours looking at various sites for deals. I ended up with Maui Ocean Club. I have never had trouble finding cheap accommodation in any location yet. But, I have to scour to find them.
> 
> Personally, I find it fun not knowing where I am staying next. All I care about is the location and the time I have chosen.
> 
> ...



Also, based on your post above, you've scored a lot of your cheap rentals with last minute deals on TUG, direct rental from owners, Redweek, etc. That's great for folks who are comfortable with that booking model. For those of us who aren't quite so comfortable with direct rentals from owners, timeshares wind up looking very attractive versus hotel bookings, condo bookings through realtors and other middlemen, etc. I'm not saying we would never use an AirBnB, but it would only be in places where there were no timeshares or branded (Marriott/Hilton/Westin/etc.) hotels. I tend to not like surprises on vacation, so that big sign out front allows us to know what to expect.


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## Fredflintstone (May 20, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Also, based on your post above, you've scored a lot of your cheap rentals with last minute deals on TUG, direct rental from owners, Redweek, etc. That's great for folks who are comfortable with that booking model. For those of us who aren't quite so comfortable with direct rentals from owners, timeshares wind up looking very attractive versus hotel bookings, condo bookings through realtors and other middlemen, etc. I'm not saying we would never use an AirBnB, but it would only be in places where there were no timeshares or branded (Marriott/Hilton/Westin/etc.) hotels. I tend to not like surprises on vacation, so that big sign out front allows us to know what to expect.



Yes, an you are right. Another advantage of owning is you know what you are getting. I personally have never had a problem with owner direct. I have always received what was offered.

Frankly, I found renting better than exchanging too. Years ago, I had timeshares and could rarely get what I want from RCI. They were usually not available in my desired location. I did think of buying the resort in the area I wanted but found renting gets me there. As I said though, there are times I might spend an entire day or even 2 finding what I need.

My favourite surprise rental was getting a Christmas week at the Ritz Carlton Kapalua for 700. It was a 2 bedroom and a real treat. Those ones however are miracle rentals but do happen once in awhile.  


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## Dean (May 20, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> Although I respect those who choose the timeshare lifestyle, I too have learned over the years not to get locked in. I agree TUG is a great platform to learn. No, I’m not a hater of timeshares. Many of the resorts are beautiful places. I just simply enjoy the freedom to base my trips on price. Just for comparison, here is where I have stayed this past winter with costs.
> 
> 1. September 14 to 21. Maui Ocean Club. A last minute rental on TUG. 2 bedroom, ocean front.  Cost 800.00
> 
> ...


But then you add air into the equation so what you saved on a short notice option, you may pay extra in other fees like car and air.  Personally I would not be comfortable waiting for my main options, if you're OK with that and the time/work involved in chasing those, then it may work.  I want savings but consistently and the ability to plan ahead. Eventually you're going to get frustrated and/or not be able to find something you want for a price you're comfortable with for a given trip.  It's not much different than the buy to own vs exchange methodology with timeshares only it's even more uncertain and variable.  It may not be uneducated vs knowledgeable in your case but often it is.  I get contacts from family an friends all the time about wanting to go to the beach 4th of July or on a holiday weekend.  That HHI trip with 51 I had a friend want me to help them find a beach location looking about 6 weeks out, I could find nothing through MVC, Wyndham, Bluegreen, RCI or II, nothing at all.  The week they were asking for was 1 or 2 off ours but I had one exchange to Heritage I was only going to use 2 nights leading in (plus the free golf) so I invited them to go with us and come those 5 nights which they did, great time was had by all.  I just had a call from a first cousin this past week wanting suggestions for a reasonable cost option for Hilton Head for a friends honeymoon for the holiday weekend in 2 weeks, yea right!.  Nothing available other than on cash at $200 a night and up, mostly up.


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## JIMinNC (May 20, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> Frankly, I found renting better than exchanging too. Years ago, I had timeshares and could rarely get what I want from RCI. They were usually not available in my desired location. I did think of buying the resort in the area I wanted but found renting gets me there. As I said though, there are times I might spend an entire day or even 2 finding what I need.



No argument on this statement. I hate RCI/II exchanging. The process is not appealing to us - deposit, search, wait... We just completed our last RCI exchange from leftover deposits from a prior ownership and will let our membership expire. I doubt we will do any more II exchanges with our Marriott ownership, unless it's in an emergency use-it-or-lose-it situation. Going forward we'll book our owned Marriott weeks, or book using Marriott DC Points, or book Marriott/Hilton/Westin hotels for non-timeshare travel.


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## vacationtime1 (May 20, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> My favourite surprise rental was getting a Christmas week at the Ritz Carlton Kapalua for 700. It was a 2 bedroom and a real treat. Those ones however are miracle rentals but do happen once in awhile.



A great deal, to be sure, but I have to ask:  what about airfares?

Last minute travel puts you at the vagaries of the airlines -- high fares, leftover connections, lousy travel times.  Especially on a Christmas vacation trip.  Just for example: last Thanksgiving, I could have taken my family to Kauai Lagoons, but the airfares would have been $1,500pp.

The additional financial and non-financial costs of purchasing airplane tickets at the last minute often more than balances out the rental savings, especially if you are paying for two or four or more airplane tickets.


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## Fredflintstone (May 20, 2019)

Dean said:


> But then you add air into the equation so what you saved on a short notice option, you may pay extra in other fees like car and air.  Personally I would not be comfortable waiting for my main options, if you're OK with that and the time/work involved in chasing those, then it may work.  I want savings but consistently and the ability to plan ahead. Eventually you're going to get frustrated and/or not be able to find something you want for a price you're comfortable with for a given trip.  It's not much different than the buy to own vs exchange methodology with timeshares only it's even more uncertain and variable.  It may not be uneducated vs knowledgeable in your case but often it is.  I get contacts from family an friends all the time about wanting to go to the beach 4th of July or on a holiday weekend.  That HHI trip with 51 I had a friend want me to help them find a beach location looking about 6 weeks out, I could find nothing through MVC, Wyndham, Bluegreen, RCI or II, nothing at all.  The week they were asking for was 1 or 2 off ours but I had one exchange to Heritage I was only going to use 2 nights leading in (plus the free golf) so I invited them to go with us and come those 5 nights which they did, great time was had by all.  I just had a call from a first cousin this past week wanting suggestions for a reasonable cost option for Hilton Head for a friends honeymoon for the holiday weekend in 2 weeks, yea right!.  Nothing available other than on cash at $200 a night and up, mostly up.



Normally, air and car costs can be higher if you book last minute.

Call it backwards but many times I book the air and car first then the accommodations. To date I have never had a problem finding a good deal. 

I do have a plan though.

If I can’t find a place I can always get a camping spot. I just bring a tent. So far, plan b has not been needed 

Hostel would be plan c.

Sorry no plan d....palm tree perhaps?


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## Quadmaniac (May 20, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> The only thing that isn’t consistent is getting one particular place. For example, I planned to go to Maui in September. I spent hours looking at various sites for deals. I ended up with Maui Ocean Club. I have never had trouble finding cheap accommodation in any location yet. But, I have to scour to find them.
> 
> Personally, I find it fun not knowing where I am staying next. All I care about is the location and the time I have chosen.



Consistently, 90% of my trades and travels have been to Hawaii. Most many of these have been at peak times like holidays and have had it consistently enough over the past 8 years to say that it is most definitely possible. I posted in another thread listing all the weeks during Christmas, New Years, Spring break, thanksgiving, Memorial Day, Black Friday, etc year after year after year. At some point, you have to recognize, its not a fluke accident. It takes planning but it is definitely doable.


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## Fredflintstone (May 20, 2019)

Funny story to tell you. A friend of mine owned a timeshare in Hawaii with a MAJOR brand. Anyway, when he arrived they screwed up his reservation. It happened to be iron man week.

Oh my, frantic he tried everywhere to get a place. No luck. So, he went to a camping store and bought a tent and a few supplies. Camping spot was 20 a night. 

Funny, he loved it. He had his tent on the beach and ate fresh fish with the locals camping that they caught in the Ocean.

They drank beers over a campfire near the beach and sang Hawaiian songs. He got names of people living there who offered to let him couch surf or tent in their back yard if he ever gets stuck again.

After he sued the resort as he is a lawyer he dumped them.

Now camps in Hawaii every year.

I always love that story. Even lemons can turn into lemonade. 


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## Dean (May 20, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> I do have a plan though.


And that is the main point whether it be timeshare or otherwise.



Fredflintstone said:


> Funny story to tell you. A friend of mine owned a timeshare in Hawaii with a MAJOR brand. Anyway, when he arrived they screwed up his reservation. It happened to be iron man week.
> 
> Oh my, frantic he tried everywhere to get a place. No luck. So, he went to a camping store and bought a tent and a few supplies. Camping spot was 20 a night.
> 
> ...


Every situation is different but I've seen several examples of someone with a fixed week options not realizing when their week actually was, esp when they owned back to back but not the same start date since they weeks are not always consecutive weeks in this situation.


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## Fredflintstone (May 20, 2019)

Dean said:


> And that is the main point whether it be timeshare or otherwise.
> 
> Every situation is different but I've seen several examples of someone with a fixed week options not realizing when their week actually was, esp when they owned back to back but not the same start date since they weeks are not always consecutive weeks in this situation.



Yes I can see that. 

With my friend, he had a confirmation with this resort. Sadly, they told him they messed up and they can’t help.  Shocking I know.

Frankly, I know more details but under his settlement agreement, I promised him I would not divulge specific details.

I know he got a good settlement but they did appeal a few times and spend a lot defending themselves. He’s one of the top corporate lawyers in the US so he didn’t care when he was faced with a timeshare lawyer team.

Yes, they got their clocks cleaned in the end.

What I am getting at is timeshares do make errors leaving those who thought they were covered left at the campsite.

Saying that, his campsite experience was so positive, he does it all the time there. 

He is a very wealthy, prim and proper fellow and that’s why I chuckle when he chooses camping now. He never struck me as a camper. Without this mess up, he would never fathom camping. He used to always be 5 stars all the way.




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## jme (May 20, 2019)

Nice.

Making lemonade out of lemons is a necessity for living a happy life. 
I'm convinced of it. 

And in many cases the end result is far more enjoyable than if things had gone "uneventfully", 
which of course is the reward for exercising that choice. 
In our family we have many stories of just that, and they are great memories.


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## Fredflintstone (May 20, 2019)

jme said:


> Nice.
> 
> Making lemonade out of lemons is a necessity for living a happy life.
> I'm convinced of it.
> ...



That’s what makes life rich. A surprise here and there spices things up sometimes. 


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## Fredflintstone (May 20, 2019)

One last thing I should mention, he made darn sure that the compensation paid did not come out of MF. They had to prove it came from profits or insurance. He said it wasn’t the owners who messed up so they aren’t paying.

I really respected him for that because he had to fight harder to get that in the settlement. 


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## davidvel (May 20, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> One last thing I should mention, he made darn sure that the compensation paid did not come out of MF. They had to prove it came from profits or insurance. He said it wasn’t the owners who messed up so they aren’t paying.
> 
> I really respected him for that because he had to fight harder to get that in the settlement.
> 
> ...


Ok, sure, got it.


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## TravelTime (May 21, 2019)

One thing I really like about timeshares is that you can find some favorite destinations and repeat year in, year out with a relatively affordable budget. Then I can spruce up my annual vacations by throwing in some more unique things like sailing and cruises for cash as well as some fancy hotels with my MB points and cash or a trip to a new destination. Right now, I consider Hawaii, Mexico and the Caribbean to be my equivalent of “domestic” travel since they are all like a trip to the East Coast from SFO. Marriott and MVC are getting so large that I can often find something in the timeshares or the hotel side. I really like this a lot. I have no need to leave the Marriott family usually. I do have some non-Marriott timeshares but I feel most loyal to Marriott due to its breath of reach as well as the luxury options with Ritz Carlton and the luxury hotels.


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## csodjd (May 21, 2019)

Dean said:


> When you say "forced" I assume it's something you want to do and the timeshares reminds you to do so routinely.


I'm a lawyer and speaker. My schedule is set months, even years, out, and includes lots of business travel. In just the first 20 days of May I've been in Washington DC, Dallas, San Antonio, San Jose and Sacramento. Back to Sacramento in a week. I'm scheduled for Atlanta, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Austin between now and December (plus 2 weeks in Australia playing golf). 

So, by "forced" I mean OWNING timeshares means I force myself to choose a time well (a year) in advance, reserve my places, and get away with my family. I've got two weeks coming up in Hawaii that I booked a year ago. That allowed me to ensure that I scheduled all my legal work around it. No trials, no depositions, etc. If I relied on renting, it would be all too easy to just be too busy. My point, however, is that there is value, at least to me, not measurable in dollars. If I had the luxury of the unplanned 1-wk getaway as you appear to have I might see it differently. My schedule just doesn't permit that, nor will it for the next 5+ years.


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## Dean (May 21, 2019)

csodjd said:


> I'm a lawyer and speaker. My schedule is set months, even years, out, and includes lots of business travel. In just the first 20 days of May I've been in Washington DC, Dallas, San Antonio, San Jose and Sacramento. Back to Sacramento in a week. I'm scheduled for Atlanta, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Austin between now and December (plus 2 weeks in Australia playing golf).
> 
> So, by "forced" I mean OWNING timeshares means I force myself to choose a time well (a year) in advance, reserve my places, and get away with my family. I've got two weeks coming up in Hawaii that I booked a year ago. That allowed me to ensure that I scheduled all my legal work around it. No trials, no depositions, etc. If I relied on renting, it would be all too easy to just be too busy. My point, however, is that there is value, at least to me, not measurable in dollars. If I had the luxury of the unplanned 1-wk getaway as you appear to have I might see it differently. My schedule just doesn't permit that, nor will it for the next 5+ years.


But you could do that without timeshares, it just takes planning which you're already doing.  For me personally it has encouraged me to do more than I might have otherwise and it pushes me to consider things I would not have done otherwise.  But it your case, as you're presented it, neither of those apply.  Timeshares are comfortable to me as well.  We enjoy space and not only are we comfortable without maid service, we actually prefer not having it.


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## csodjd (May 21, 2019)

Dean said:


> But you could do that without timeshares, it just takes planning which you're already doing.  For me personally it has encouraged me to do more than I might have otherwise and it pushes me to consider things I would not have done otherwise.  But it your case, as you're presented it, neither of those apply.  Timeshares are comfortable to me as well.  We enjoy space and not only are we comfortable without maid service, we actually prefer not having it.


You missed the key line... "If I relied on renting, it would be all too easy to just be too busy."

Owning changes the emotional landscape for me. There is this DOLLAR commitment that's been made so I HAVE to get it done. The very nature and benefit of not owning and renting instead is that you are not financially committed until you've made and can no longer cancel the reservation. So, what's the hurry? And if a (work) conflict comes up? No problem, I'll just change or cancel my reservation. There is no money LOST if I don't get around to it. Owning creates a significant financial incentive to USE the property and not allow excuses to put it off. It's all a mental game. (The best analogy I have, for me, is how when I have an appointment with my trainer I never fail to go to the gym and work out, but when I don't, and so I don't HAVE to be there, I rarely go.)

We all have our own reasons for owning, or renting. There is definitely no one answer or "right" reason. For me the financial part is a distant second in importance. It may well NOT be the most dollar-efficient way to vacation. I'm okay with that, because I use it. And, it makes my wife happy, and that has no DOLLAR value, but is worth a lot!


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## Fredflintstone (May 21, 2019)

csodjd said:


> You missed the key line... "If I relied on renting, it would be all too easy to just be too busy."
> 
> Owning changes the emotional landscape for me. There is this DOLLAR commitment that's been made so I HAVE to get it done. The very nature and benefit of not owning and renting instead is that you are not financially committed until you've made and can no longer cancel the reservation. So, what's the hurry? And if a (work) conflict comes up? No problem, I'll just change or cancel my reservation. There is no money LOST if I don't get around to it. Owning creates a significant financial incentive to USE the property and not allow excuses to put it off. It's all a mental game. (The best analogy I have, for me, is how when I have an appointment with my trainer I never fail to go to the gym and work out, but when I don't, and so I don't HAVE to be there, I rarely go.)
> 
> We all have our own reasons for owning, or renting. There is definitely no one answer or "right" reason. For me the financial part is a distant second in importance. It may well NOT be the most dollar-efficient way to vacation. I'm okay with that, because I use it. And, it makes my wife happy, and that has no DOLLAR value, but is worth a lot!




I agree


I respect those who own and those who rent. It’s a personal choice.

If you see value in owning and it fits your lifestyle, go for it.

Renting, for me, is freedom because I’m not locked into anything. However, I don’t get consistency of brand, sometimes (but very rare) pay more, love the thrill of the bargain hunt and am adventurous. That wouldn’t work for everyone.

I will say, whether you rent or own, there are many beautiful timeshares and they are nice to stay in overall.

Everyone has their own reasons and both have their advantages and disadvantages.


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## Dean (May 21, 2019)

csodjd said:


> You missed the key line... "If I relied on renting, it would be all too easy to just be too busy."
> 
> Owning changes the emotional landscape for me. There is this DOLLAR commitment that's been made so I HAVE to get it done. The very nature and benefit of not owning and renting instead is that you are not financially committed until you've made and can no longer cancel the reservation. So, what's the hurry? And if a (work) conflict comes up? No problem, I'll just change or cancel my reservation. There is no money LOST if I don't get around to it. Owning creates a significant financial incentive to USE the property and not allow excuses to put it off. It's all a mental game. (The best analogy I have, for me, is how when I have an appointment with my trainer I never fail to go to the gym and work out, but when I don't, and so I don't HAVE to be there, I rarely go.)
> 
> We all have our own reasons for owning, or renting. There is definitely no one answer or "right" reason. For me the financial part is a distant second in importance. It may well NOT be the most dollar-efficient way to vacation. I'm okay with that, because I use it. And, it makes my wife happy, and that has no DOLLAR value, but is worth a lot!


I didn't miss it but I think you missed the point that it's a choice you make and you could just as easily make the choice to do it a different way.  I realize it makes you pay attention but you could chose to pay attention for other options if you wanted.


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## csodjd (May 21, 2019)

Dean said:


> I didn't miss it but I think you missed the point that it's a choice you make and you could just as easily make the choice to do it a different way.  I realize it makes you pay attention but you could chose to pay attention for other options if you wanted.


Yes, if one wishes to ignore his or her nature and personality, one could make choices that assume or require behavior that's not consistent with those natural character traits and more or less ignore their own truth. I'm more pragmatic. It's akin to saying I COULD choose to work less by ignoring clients that call outside "regular" hours. But, I won't. It's not me. So, why would I make decisions based on me being someone I know I'm not, or acting in a way I know I won't act?


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## Fredflintstone (May 21, 2019)

csodjd said:


> Yes, if one wishes to ignore his or her nature and personality, one could make choices that assume or require behavior that's not consistent with those natural character traits and more or less ignore their own truth. I'm more pragmatic. It's akin to saying I COULD choose to work less by ignoring clients that call outside "regular" hours. But, I won't. It's not me. So, why would I make decisions based on me being someone I know I'm not, or acting in a way I know I won't act?



What’s the old song. Oh yes, here it is...







Hey, it’s good to be me...

And know who me is 


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## m61376 (May 24, 2019)

Haha—-
I have to say that we, too, find ownership a huge motivator. It’s easy to get in a rut, allocate resources elsewhere, not bother to schedule vacation time (despite having a lot of flexibility), etc.. there were many years where my husband would be left with 3 weeks vacation in May (with their year ending the end of June). Now we’re sure to get away a few times a year. We often parlay our winter week into two weeks, nabbing an off season exchange late Fall, and take the family on an annual beach trip. Our older grandsons, 9 and 5, talk all year about things they’re going to do in Aruba, and are looking forward to playing with their 2 year old cousin this summer. Knowing my kids if we didn’t own something with set dates for them to work around the likelihood is it’d never get planned,, or the process of planning would be so convoluted it’d sap the enjoyment. 
Which brings up the added benefit of not only motivating us to go, it’s enabled us to invite friends on many occasions and regularly travel with family. And it’s especially wonderful to have set the precedent of traveling with grandchildren, which has carried over into other shorter weekend trips and even to an upcoming trip to London. Speaking of which, that’ll be my first AirBNB, since the family finds vacations enhanced by sharing accommodations; I think that says it all!


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## titan7 (May 30, 2019)

Very interesting topic, I go back and forth on this rent own thing.  Little history on me have been going to Maui for 16 years, after a couple year at the Hyatt at $3000 per week we decided to head to the Marriott for a presentation and we knew friends with a Marriott TS and they loved it.  Went to an owners reception at Maui Ocean Club, could find nobody who did not love their TS.  We purchased an annual 1br OV for $30,000 in 2005, after I purchased I found TUG and researched resale, decided that I would change to EOY within our right of cancel period as I did not was to risk so much and figured if I wanted the even year I would purchase resale at $12-13k.   I saw that resale units were selling for $12-$13k I bought @ $18k, and they gave me a free week in Maui, so the value to me was $3500 for the free week. So I figured I would be into this $14500 after the free week and then I could trade, etc.  I figured if resale were selling $12-13k in 2005, and they were I would risk a couple grand as if I used it a couple time then sold for 12k I was golden. MF were $590 back then. Well, who could predict the financial crash in 2007-08 that lasted 3-4 years and gutted the TS resale market, not many, I saw our unit, well all units down a lot I actually tried to pick up the even year 1br OV at MOC twice in 2012 for $3000, both time Marriott bought it back.

So I go to Maui every year, most years, twice per year.  I actually saw my exact unit on resale for $3500 and I believe it would pass FROR, but I am questioning the value.  I have been renting from owners on the even year for the cost of the MF.  What I have observed over past 15 years, MF went from $600 to current about $1100 per year or 1200-2200 per usage.  Rents have gone from 1400 to about 2500 now.  So, I am struggling with the purchase price + MF vs rental break even point.  Okay I realize this is not an investment but what are your thoughts?

I only go during non-peak times mid-May and September. 

Thanks


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## MOXJO7282 (May 30, 2019)

titan7 said:


> Very interesting topic, I go back and forth on this rent own thing.  Little history on me have been going to Maui for 16 years, after a couple year at the Hyatt at $3000 per week we decided to head to the Marriott for a presentation and we knew friends with a Marriott TS and they loved it.  Went to an owners reception at Maui Ocean Club, could find nobody who did not love their TS.  We purchased an annual 1br OV for $30,000 in 2005, after I purchased I found TUG and researched resale, decided that I would change to EOY within our right of cancel period.   I saw that resale units were selling for $12-$13k I bought $18k, and they gave me a free week in Maui, value to me $3500.  So I figured I would be into this $14500 and then I could trade, etc.  I figured if resale were selling $12-13k in 2005, and they were. I would risk a couple grand of and MF were $590.  Also,, right, well who could predict the financial crash in 2007-08 that lasted 3-4 years and gutted the TS resale market, not many.
> 
> So I go to Maui every year, most years twice per year.  I actually saw my exact unit on resale for $3500 and I believe it would pass FROR, but I am questioning the value.  I have been renting from owners on the even year for the cost of the MF.  What I have observed over past 15 years, MF went from $600 to current about $1100 per year or 1200-2200 per usage.  Rents have gone from 1400 to about 2500 now.  So, I am struggling with the purchase price + MF vs rental break even point.  Okay I realize this is not an investment but what are your thoughts?
> 
> ...


Yes for you it makes no sense to purchase given you like to go during what is considered low season and only need a 1bdrm. If you wanted to go during whale season and especially if you needed a 2BDRM then buying might make mores sense because the uplift above maintenance can be high depending on what and when you want to go.


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## Shaun (May 31, 2019)

titan7 said:


> Very interesting topic, I go back and forth on this rent own thing.  Little history on me have been going to Maui for 16 years, after a couple year at the Hyatt at $3000 per week we decided to head to the Marriott for a presentation and we knew friends with a Marriott TS and they loved it.  Went to an owners reception at Maui Ocean Club, could find nobody who did not love their TS.  We purchased an annual 1br OV for $30,000 in 2005, after I purchased I found TUG and researched resale, decided that I would change to EOY within our right of cancel period as I did not was to risk so much and figured if I wanted the even year I would purchase resale at $12-13k.   I saw that resale units were selling for $12-$13k I bought @ $18k, and they gave me a free week in Maui, so the value to me was $3500 for the free week. So I figured I would be into this $14500 after the free week and then I could trade, etc.  I figured if resale were selling $12-13k in 2005, and they were I would risk a couple grand as if I used it a couple time then sold for 12k I was golden. MF were $590 back then. Well, who could predict the financial crash in 2007-08 that lasted 3-4 years and gutted the TS resale market, not many, I saw our unit, well all units down a lot I actually tried to pick up the even year 1br OV at MOC twice in 2012 for $3000, both time Marriott bought it back.
> 
> So I go to Maui every year, most years, twice per year.  I actually saw my exact unit on resale for $3500 and I believe it would pass FROR, but I am questioning the value.  I have been renting from owners on the even year for the cost of the MF.  What I have observed over past 15 years, MF went from $600 to current about $1100 per year or 1200-2200 per usage.  Rents have gone from 1400 to about 2500 now.  So, I am struggling with the purchase price + MF vs rental break even point.  Okay I realize this is not an investment but what are your thoughts?
> 
> ...


I'm new at this timeshare thing but I have put a ton of time into research here and on the redweek site that a lot of timeshare owners use to rent out their weeks.  I just bought a 1 BR OV even year usage at the Marriott Maui and it passed ROFR last month for $3,150.  I've seen on this site and on the redweek site, off season weeks rent for the maintenance dues or less so I would say that it makes much more sense for you to rent than buy if you are going off season.  You can get off season for around the same price or less than the maintenance fee costs.  This is what I see and suggest from doing my research.  But, if you can pick up a deal like I did for $3,150 for a 1 BR OV EOY, it might just be worth purchasing but I don't know if there are any others selling for that low.  Just curious, what did the 1 BR OV every even year sell for when you bought?


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## Dean (May 31, 2019)

titan7 said:


> Very interesting topic, I go back and forth on this rent own thing.  Little history on me have been going to Maui for 16 years, after a couple year at the Hyatt at $3000 per week we decided to head to the Marriott for a presentation and we knew friends with a Marriott TS and they loved it.  Went to an owners reception at Maui Ocean Club, could find nobody who did not love their TS.  We purchased an annual 1br OV for $30,000 in 2005, after I purchased I found TUG and researched resale, decided that I would change to EOY within our right of cancel period as I did not was to risk so much and figured if I wanted the even year I would purchase resale at $12-13k.   I saw that resale units were selling for $12-$13k I bought @ $18k, and they gave me a free week in Maui, so the value to me was $3500 for the free week. So I figured I would be into this $14500 after the free week and then I could trade, etc.  I figured if resale were selling $12-13k in 2005, and they were I would risk a couple grand as if I used it a couple time then sold for 12k I was golden. MF were $590 back then. Well, who could predict the financial crash in 2007-08 that lasted 3-4 years and gutted the TS resale market, not many, I saw our unit, well all units down a lot I actually tried to pick up the even year 1br OV at MOC twice in 2012 for $3000, both time Marriott bought it back.
> 
> So I go to Maui every year, most years, twice per year.  I actually saw my exact unit on resale for $3500 and I believe it would pass FROR, but I am questioning the value.  I have been renting from owners on the even year for the cost of the MF.  What I have observed over past 15 years, MF went from $600 to current about $1100 per year or 1200-2200 per usage.  Rents have gone from 1400 to about 2500 now.  So, I am struggling with the purchase price + MF vs rental break even point.  Okay I realize this is not an investment but what are your thoughts?
> 
> ...


It sounds reasonable to keep on your same path.  A week to avoid renting would give you more control and more guarantees but would also come with more hassle, risk and limitations.  Personally I'd buy if I could get a good week the fit my exact needs in this situation.  You'll have better unit assignments on average as well.  Either approach sounds reasonable.


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## csodjd (Jun 1, 2019)

I've looked. I have an EOY 2-BR OF at Napili/Lahina towers. Was thinking of buying the other year. But then I thought about the bigger picture. About $20k to buy the other year. So I'd pay $20k for an EOY. That $20k in the bank/investments at 5% is $2000 every other year (I can buy bonds that pay way more than that!). So, that's an added hidden cost of buying. Add the MF fees, about $2500 and it means my cost for this second EOY is about $4500/use. With the 25% owners discount I can rent through Marriott.com for just about that, and that allows me to arrive/leave any days I want, stay 5, 7, 9 days. Fly on lower-cost airfare days. Etc. Or I can rent from an owner for about $5k and have the flexibility to choose not to go any given year. Didn't make sense economically.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 1, 2019)

csodjd said:


> I've looked. I have an EOY 2-BR OF at Napili/Lahina towers. Was thinking of buying the other year. But then I thought about the bigger picture. About $20k to buy the other year. So I'd pay $20k for an EOY. That $20k in the bank/investments at 5% is $2000 every other year (I can buy bonds that pay way more than that!). So, that's an added hidden cost of buying. Add the MF fees, about $2500 and it means my cost for this second EOY is about $4500/use. With the 25% owners discount I can rent through Marriott.com for just about that, and that allows me to arrive/leave any days I want, stay 5, 7, 9 days. Fly on lower-cost airfare days. Etc. Or I can rent from an owner for about $5k and have the flexibility to choose not to go any given year. Didn't make sense economically.


It is always important to take the opportunity cost in to consideration when laying down a lot of cash for a timeshare.


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## titan7 (Jun 2, 2019)

Shaun said:


> I'm new at this timeshare thing but I have put a ton of time into research here and on the redweek site that a lot of timeshare owners use to rent out their weeks.  I just bought a 1 BR OV even year usage at the Marriott Maui and it passed ROFR last month for $3,150.  I've seen on this site and on the redweek site, off season weeks rent for the maintenance dues or less so I would say that it makes much more sense for you to rent than buy if you are going off season.  You can get off season for around the same price or less than the maintenance fee costs.  This is what I see and suggest from doing my research.  But, if you can pick up a deal like I did for $3,150 for a 1 BR OV EOY, it might just be worth purchasing but I don't know if there are any others selling for that low.  Just curious, what did the 1 BR OV every even year sell for when you bought?



In 2005, the 1BR OV EOY sold for $18,200, resale units sold $12-13k.  Wish I could have predicted the crash that never has recovered.  I did the math one day, I think my approximate break even point would be when I am in my 70s, I am 52 now.    Make me sick, but again I did not have a crystal ball to see the future. However we love going there, and the past is the the past.   I have made much more back buying my house in Orange County in the late 90s before the boom, oh well.  I will think on this a bit more.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 2, 2019)

titan7 said:


> So I go to Maui every year, most years, twice per year.  I actually saw my exact unit on resale for $3500 and I believe it would pass FROR, but I am questioning the value.  I have been renting from owners on the even year for the cost of the MF.  What I have observed over past 15 years, MF went from $600 to current about $1100 per year or 1200-2200 per usage.  Rents have gone from 1400 to about 2500 now.  So, I am struggling with the purchase price + MF vs rental break even point.  Okay I realize this is not an investment but what are your thoughts?
> 
> I only go during non-peak times mid-May and September.





titan7 said:


> In 2005, the 1BR OV EOY sold for $18,200, resale units sold $12-13k.  Wish I could have predicted the crash that never has recovered.  I did the math one day, I think my approximate break even point would be when I am in my 70s, I am 52 now. Make me sick, but again I did not have a crystal ball to see the future. However we love going there, and the past is the the past.   I have made much more back buying my house in Orange County in the late 90s before the boom, oh well.  I will think on this a bit more.



Just a couple of thoughts...based on your numbers above (mf $600 up to $1100/yr and rents from $1400 to $2500), your maintenance fees have increased at a compound growth rate of just a little over 4.1% per year. The growth in rent is just a tad under 4% per year (3.94% to be exact), so that's pretty comparable. Both of those numbers are not far off numbers I've seen for long term growth in hotel room and other lodging costs. So really not much difference there to factor in to the rent vs buy decision.

I've always looked at the ownership decision as more than just a pure rent vs. buy break even, but the rent vs. buy analysis always looks better for us than it will for you. While you are fine renting from owners, we never do that; so if we rent, it's going to be from a site like marriott.com, hilton.com, or in the case of a condo, from a realtor/leasing company that manages short-term rentals for owners. Most of these options offer more liberal cancellation/change provisions than rental-by-owner options and don't require up-front payment. (I also prefer to have a large company with additional inventory to stand behind the reservation, as opposed to an individual owner who may only have the one reservation to rent. If something goes wrong (or in the unlikely event the owner is a scam), we would have fewer avenues of recourse than when renting from a big company.) But if I'm going to pay up front, as we do with maintenance fees, I want the flexibility ownership usually offers to cancel, change, etc. That's one thing I really like about points vs pure week ownership - the flexibility to cancel a reservation and redeploy those points for other uses. With our unenrolled weeks, we can still cancel, but we would then likely have to deposit the week into II, which we try to avoid if at all possible. We take that chance with our two unenrolled post-2010 resale weeks, but that's one reason we hope to one day find a way to get them enrolled that makes economic sense for us - it greatly reduces the situations where we would wind up losing value in a cancellation/change situation. As we get older, those situations do increase the risk somewhat of non-changeable reservations.

Clearly, for someone like you who only travels off-season and is fine renting from owners, the rent vs. buy decision is different than it is for us. Just don't neglect to look at some of the non-financial benefits ownership * might* offer you.


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## vacationtime1 (Jun 2, 2019)

titan7 said:


> In 2005, the 1BR OV EOY sold for $18,200, resale units sold $12-13k.  Wish I could have predicted the crash that never has recovered.  I did the math one day, I think my approximate break even point would be when I am in my 70s, I am 52 now.    Make me sick, but again I did not have a crystal ball to see the future. However we love going there, and the past is the the past.   I have made much more back buying my house in Orange County in the late 90s before the boom, oh well.  I will think on this a bit more.



The rule of thumb in 2005 was that prime Marriott resales cost about 60% of Marriott was then charging.  I got killed on the Waiohai purchase I made at about the same time.  At least prime Marriott weeks retained some value; many TS's did not.

Don't "think on this a bit more"; it is not productive.  Instead, focus on the great vacations you are now having on Maui.


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## Shaun (Jun 2, 2019)

titan7 said:


> In 2005, the 1BR OV EOY sold for $18,200, resale units sold $12-13k.  Wish I could have predicted the crash that never has recovered.  I did the math one day, I think my approximate break even point would be when I am in my 70s, I am 52 now.    Make me sick, but again I did not have a crystal ball to see the future. However we love going there, and the past is the the past.   I have made much more back buying my house in Orange County in the late 90s before the boom, oh well.  I will think on this a bit more.


Ya, it’s hard to predict the future but I’m sure the memories that you have from those vacations are priceless. I kind of wish that I would’ve bought quite a while ago (even buying a timeshare at a higher price than today’s prices like you did) and built more vacation memories but hey, you’ve got to start sometime and it might as well be now for me.  I did own a vacation home in the eastern part of our state and we did take vacations there with the family but there’s nothing quite like Maui. Good luck in your decision!


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## TXTortoise (Jun 2, 2019)

I know I posted this somewhere else, maybe in the FAQ, but this is a pretty good baseline.  As usual consider relative inflation.
(Source: Closing docs from one of the week I bought)

* 2010 
UNIT TYPE SALES PRICE 
MAUI, LANAI AND MOLOKAI WINGS *
TBOF Week 52  $76,000
TBOF Week 51  $72,000
TBOF Platinum  $63,900
TBOV Week 52  $70,000
TBOV Week 51  $65,500
TB OV Platinum $57,100
TBMGV Week 52 $51,500
TBMGV Week 51 $50,500
TBMGV Platinum $46,400
OBOF Week 52 $48,500
OBOF Week 51 $46,500
OBOF Platinum $39,600
OBOV Week 52 $43,200
OBOV Week 51 $41,000
OBOV Platinum $36,800
OBGV Week 52 $32,000
OBGV Week 51 $31,000
OBGV Platinum $30,400
OBIV Week 52 $25,900
OB1V Week 51 $24,500
OBIV Platinum $24,600

*LAHAINA TOWER *
Two Bedroom MGV Units $55,000
Two Bedroom MGV Units (Fixed)  $58,000 - $67,000
Two Bedroom OV Units $65,500
Two Bedroom OV Units (Fixed) $70,600 - $80,700
Two Bedroom OF Units $74,000
Two Bedroom OF Units (Float-Fixed) $97,500- $131,800
Two Bedroom OF Units (Fixed) $50,000 -$116,000
Three Bedroom OF Units $66,350 - $160,600

*NAPILI TOWER *
Two Bedroom IV Units $46,900
Two Bedroom IV Units (Fixed) $55,000 - $60,500
Two Bedroom OF Units $74,000
Two Bedroom OF Units (Float-Fixed) $112,800 - $132,800
Two Bedroom OF Units (Fixed) $63,700 - $122,500
Three Bedroom Units $53,000 - $163,500


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## Shaun (Jun 2, 2019)

TXTortoise said:


> I know I posted this somewhere else, maybe in the FAQ, but this is a pretty good baseline.  As usual consider relative inflation.
> (Source: Closing docs from one of the week I bought)
> 
> * 2010
> ...



Are these 2010 prices? Are they resort prices or resale prices?  Thanks.


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## TXTortoise (Jun 2, 2019)

Marriott retail pricing as of 2010.


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## titan7 (Jun 3, 2019)

Thanks all good points!


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## CPNY (Jul 2, 2019)

titan7 said:


> Very interesting topic, I go back and forth on this rent own thing.  Little history on me have been going to Maui for 16 years, after a couple year at the Hyatt at $3000 per week we decided to head to the Marriott for a presentation and we knew friends with a Marriott TS and they loved it.  Went to an owners reception at Maui Ocean Club, could find nobody who did not love their TS.  We purchased an annual 1br OV for $30,000 in 2005, after I purchased I found TUG and researched resale, decided that I would change to EOY within our right of cancel period as I did not was to risk so much and figured if I wanted the even year I would purchase resale at $12-13k.   I saw that resale units were selling for $12-$13k I bought @ $18k, and they gave me a free week in Maui, so the value to me was $3500 for the free week. So I figured I would be into this $14500 after the free week and then I could trade, etc.  I figured if resale were selling $12-13k in 2005, and they were I would risk a couple grand as if I used it a couple time then sold for 12k I was golden. MF were $590 back then. Well, who could predict the financial crash in 2007-08 that lasted 3-4 years and gutted the TS resale market, not many, I saw our unit, well all units down a lot I actually tried to pick up the even year 1br OV at MOC twice in 2012 for $3000, both time Marriott bought it back.
> 
> So I go to Maui every year, most years, twice per year.  I actually saw my exact unit on resale for $3500 and I believe it would pass FROR, but I am questioning the value.  I have been renting from owners on the even year for the cost of the MF.  What I have observed over past 15 years, MF went from $600 to current about $1100 per year or 1200-2200 per usage.  Rents have gone from 1400 to about 2500 now.  So, I am struggling with the purchase price + MF vs rental break even point.  Okay I realize this is not an investment but what are your thoughts?
> 
> ...


I know you may like Marriott but have you looked into buying Vistana resort with staroptions? You can easily book the Westin resorts during the off-season and still get an oceanfront room. I purchased Sheraton Vistana Villages Key west or Bella in Orlando and it comes 95,700 staroptions allowing me to book a one bedroom oceanfront in Maui Westin two years in a row in April and then may this year. Maint fee is 1600. You can also book many other locations at 8 months prior to check in. The buy in is cheaper. Just a thought.


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## jerseyfinn (Jul 4, 2019)

NotNew said:


> I've never seen in point of actual fact that Marriott bought back anything and I've talked with thousands of current/former owners on other sites. If you say they did, you'd be the first I've ever heard of in 25 years.



Make me the second person to attest that Marriott, on specific occasions does indeed straight off buy back weeks. So lets be clear to TUG folks who indeed struggle to find verifiable information about this increasingly difficult destination travel product. 

Better question is to ask "which type of weeks?" Answer is that it remains possible that Marriott will indeed buy back weeks at high occupancy/high demand resorts when Marriott feels it can use more inventory to serve rising demand as the product grows out. Once again Marriott quietly left this door open years ago to legacy owners at the high demand high season resorts.  We were put on a potential buy back list with no promise or guarantee whatsoever from Marriott that they would ever purchase your week. Time goes buy & suddenly, you get a call. Honestly speaking, it's a discounted offer, but such is the reality of timeshare.


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## Quadmaniac (Jul 4, 2019)

Marriott just took my WR EOY odd via ROFR for $750


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Jul 5, 2019)

jerseyfinn said:


> Make me the second person to attest that Marriott, on specific occasions does indeed straight off buy back weeks. So lets be clear to TUG folks who indeed struggle to find verifiable information about this increasingly difficult destination travel product.
> 
> Better question is to ask "which type of weeks?" Answer is that it remains possible that Marriott will indeed buy back weeks at high occupancy/high demand resorts when Marriott feels it can use more inventory to serve rising demand as the product grows out. Once again Marriott quietly left this door open years ago to legacy owners at the high demand high season resorts.  We were put on a potential buy back list with no promise or guarantee whatsoever from Marriott that they would ever purchase your week. Time goes buy & suddenly, you get a call. Honestly speaking, it's a discounted offer, but such is the reality of timeshare.



Me three. There was a period around 2014 when Marriott had a buy-back program. You told them what you had and they made an offer.

I sold back to Marriott a Royal Palms Red week and a Hurricane week (I forget the color, it was the cheapest). Total return was $3700 dollars for both of them (I then used the money to buy my first HGVC Bay Club week.)

That program is currently dormant, and has been for several years, but it did occur.. . . (Remember, all the Palms lack a ROFR. If Marriott wanted any. they had to buy them. . . .)


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## csalter2 (Jul 5, 2019)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Me three. There was a period around 2014 when Marriott had a buy-back program. You told them what you had and they made an offer.
> 
> I sold back to Marriott a Royal Palms Red week and a Hurricane week (I forget the color, it was the cheapest). Total return was $3700 dollars for both of them (I then used the money to buy my first HGVC Bay Club week.)
> 
> That program is currently dormant, and has been for several years, but it did occur.. . . (Remember, all the Palms lack a ROFR. If Marriott wanted any. they had to buy them. . . .)



The buyback program is not dormant. Marriott still exercises it particularly when they have specials. For example, when I got my resale Ocean Pointe week from Marriott, they brokered the deal from another owner. This was late last year.  Sometimes it actually takes them a while depending on the property.


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## klpca (Jul 5, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> The buyback program is not dormant. Marriott still exercises it particularly when they have specials. For example, when I got my resale Ocean Pointe week from Marriott, they brokered the deal from another owner. This was late last year.  Sometimes it actually takes them a while depending on the property.


They did both - brokered for other owners who were selling, and did outright buy backs from owners. All three of my sales were brokered by Marriott. At the time either they wouldn't buy my weeks (DSVII white weeks) or the offer was so low that I just hung on to them and waited to move up on the resale list.  Eventually they sold.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Jul 5, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> The buyback program is not dormant. Marriott still exercises it particularly when they have specials. For example, when I got my resale Ocean Pointe week from Marriott, they brokered the deal from another owner. This was late last year.  Sometimes it actually takes them a while depending on the property.



I didn't mean a brokered transaction. A true, straight, buy-back by Marriott. There was a period when Marriott did them.


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## Bucky (Jul 6, 2019)

This is the email I received from Marriott yesterday concerning the selling of my two units at MOW:

“Good day,

This email serves as a confirmation that we registered your interest in selling your ownership on our waitlist. All owners are registered in date order and are contacted once an offer to sell becomes available. While waiting to sell, continue using your ownership and maintain current account balances. Be aware that the sale of your timeshare is similar to a real estate transaction, it is subject to market demand and therefore, it is difficult to predict a timeframe to sell. 

Here are additional options that may suit your needs.

Sell on the Open Market

If you choose this route we advice never to work with companies looking for money up front. The commission should be paid out of the proceeds at closing.

As stated in the governing documents for eligible resorts, Marriott Vacation Club has the Right of First Refusal. As such, owners selling on the open market are required to notify Marriott Vacation Club once a purchaser has been identified and a price agreed upon. Notification can be sent via email at MVCIROFR.MVCI@vacationclub.com or fax 407-903-5995. Be advised that when inventory is sold on the open market, the purchaser will not have the option to exchange the week for BONVOY points or enroll in the new Marriott Vacation Club DestinationsT Exchange Program.  

Deed Back

As an alternative to continuing to pay maintenance fees year after year, we'd like to make you aware of the opportunity to relinquish or deed back your ownership. While this option will not result in any financial proceeds to you, it would be a guaranteed, quick way to exit the program and eliminate your ongoing annual maintenance fee commitment, including the 2020 maintenance fee.  The transfer of your ownership would commence in as soon as 120-150 days of your acceptance.

The first year occupancy to MVC would be 2020.  Any outstanding maintenance fees, taxes or loans will need to be paid prior to ownership transfer. 

The offer to deed back your ownership is valid for the next 7 business days and is subject to change at any time with or without notice. 

Regards,
Samantha Ramirez
Resale Manager, Resale Operations
Marriott Vacations Worldwide
6649 Westwood Blvd. Suite 500
Orlando, FL 32821
Toll Free: 866-682-4547 
Direct: 407-641-1801
Fax: 407-903-5995
Email: Resale.operations@vacationclub.com
Hablamos Español: Reventas@vacationclub.com”


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## dioxide45 (Jul 6, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> The buyback program is not dormant. Marriott still exercises it particularly when they have specials. For example, when I got my resale Ocean Pointe week from Marriott, they brokered the deal from another owner. This was late last year.  Sometimes it actually takes them a while depending on the property.


THere are two very distinct programs. A buyback program and brokered resale. What you are referring to is brokered resale. The buyback program did pretty much go dormant several years ago. A while back, Marriott was pretty active with the buyback program offering buyers a certain amount for their week minus admin fees ($500 I think). You would call and they would make an offer. That pretty much stopped and then you would call and they would say they would take the week back for $0. The brokered resale is where you call, get put on a list and it could be weeks to months to years before you get called an offered a deal. Brokered resales usually made more to the seller in the end, but it took longer to get rid of the week than the buyback program.


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## csalter2 (Jul 6, 2019)

It seems to me that both are in play. There are reports here that Marriott is doing both of the programs that you mention.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 6, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> It seems to me that both are in play. There are reports here that Marriott is doing both of the programs that you mention.


Yes, it does seem that they have picked back up on the buyback program lately.


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## JokSC (Jul 18, 2019)

NotNew said:


> I've never seen in point of actual fact that Marriott bought back anything and I've talked with thousands of current/former owners on other sites. If you say they did, you'd be the first I've ever heard of in 25 years.
> 
> Marriott doesnt make money for its clients--Marriott makes money for its executives and shareholders. Marriott does not make money for the benefit of timeshare owners.
> 
> ...


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## JokSC (Jul 18, 2019)

We just sold back two weeks


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## SeaDoc (Jul 19, 2019)

Which weeks did you sell back?  As an aside, given this lengthy conversation, let me throw In my two cents.  As an owner for 10+ years, 6 weeks, all convertible to 20k points annually, I love this new product.  Yes, love!  I just spent over 60 vacation days this year in Maui OF and Ritz Kapalua x 18 days, RC Lake Tahoe and Timberlodge/Grand Residance x 12 days skiing, ko’olina penthouse x 12 days, ritz Lake Tahoe 12 days early summer hiking, Las Vegas x 7 nights, Park city 4 nights, and RC aspen 5 nights over 4th of July!  Year isn’t over yet!  All were 2 bedrooms or better except for RC kapalua which was a beautiful one bedroom ocean view with kitchen!  My annual maintenance fee is less than 10% of what these trips would have pencilled out if paid best price retail.  So, for those who belittle this product, you’re not using it to its full potential.  And yes, I was a salesperson who didn’t lie to owners or prospective owners of this product.  I shared with them the enormous leverage you can get out of it!  Next Vacation is ritz Carlton SF in the fall...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dean (Jul 19, 2019)

SeaDoc said:


> Which weeks did you sell back?  As an aside, given this lengthy conversation, let me throw In my two cents.  As an owner for 10+ years, 6 weeks, all convertible to 20k points annually, I love this new product.  Yes, love!  I just spent over 60 vacation days this year in Maui OF and Ritz Kapalua x 18 days, RC Lake Tahoe and Timberlodge/Grand Residance x 12 days skiing, ko’olina penthouse x 12 days, ritz Lake Tahoe 12 days early summer hiking, Las Vegas x 7 nights, Park city 4 nights, and RC aspen 5 nights over 4th of July!  Year isn’t over yet!  All were 2 bedrooms or better except for RC kapalua which was a beautiful one bedroom ocean view with kitchen!  My annual maintenance fee is less than 10% of what these trips would have pencilled out if paid best price retail.  So, for those who belittle this product, you’re not using it to its full potential.  And yes, I was a salesperson who didn’t lie to owners or prospective owners of this product.  I shared with them the enormous leverage you can get out of it!  Next Vacation is ritz Carlton SF in the fall...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Personally I think the answer is it depends.  It gives options, control and flexibility and for that I do like/love it and I do use it to our advantage.  The skim is a bit of an aggravation but I look at it overall.  I tend to use the option that best fits my situation whether it be using the owned seeks, using DC points or exchanging.  And in reality I use them in tandem to give myself options for the cheapest and or best possible outcome.  That may mean I supplement an exchange with points to make it 10-12 days or it might mean I replace a points reservation with an exchange or even replace a weeks reservation with a lessor exchange and take the points for later use.  I've done all of those within the last year.  Within the last year I've been to HI for 3 weeks (15 people), had an exchange to CH, been to Aruba for 11 nights (4 couples) & had 11 units at HHI for week 27 (56 people) just with Marriott, other trips with other options.


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## catvag (Sep 7, 2019)

Marriott bought my weeks in Maui and week in Kauai, for about 30% of what I paid for them.  They said they would buy back my Marriott Aruba Surf Club when I bought it but now will only....very kindly...accept the deed back with no $$$ to me.  Hate those people, the Surf Club, and their system.  I usually trade out of there and stay elsewhere in Aruba.


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## iqmavin (Oct 1, 2019)

titan7 said:


> Very interesting topic, I go back and forth on this rent own thing.  Little history on me have been going to Maui for 16 years, after a couple year at the Hyatt at $3000 per week we decided to head to the Marriott for a presentation and we knew friends with a Marriott TS and they loved it.  Went to an owners reception at Maui Ocean Club, could find nobody who did not love their TS.  We purchased an annual 1br OV for $30,000 in 2005, after I purchased I found TUG and researched resale, decided that I would change to EOY within our right of cancel period as I did not was to risk so much and figured if I wanted the even year I would purchase resale at $12-13k.   I saw that resale units were selling for $12-$13k I bought @ $18k, and they gave me a free week in Maui, so the value to me was $3500 for the free week. So I figured I would be into this $14500 after the free week and then I could trade, etc.  I figured if resale were selling $12-13k in 2005, and they were I would risk a couple grand as if I used it a couple time then sold for 12k I was golden. MF were $590 back then. Well, who could predict the financial crash in 2007-08 that lasted 3-4 years and gutted the TS resale market, not many, I saw our unit, well all units down a lot I actually tried to pick up the even year 1br OV at MOC twice in 2012 for $3000, both time Marriott bought it back.
> 
> So I go to Maui every year, most years, twice per year.  I actually saw my exact unit on resale for $3500 and I believe it would pass FROR, but I am questioning the value.  I have been renting from owners on the even year for the cost of the MF.  What I have observed over past 15 years, MF went from $600 to current about $1100 per year or 1200-2200 per usage.  Rents have gone from 1400 to about 2500 now.  So, I am struggling with the purchase price + MF vs rental break even point.  Okay I realize this is not an investment but what are your thoughts?
> 
> ...


Aloha 

I just called and spoke with a resale manager re my two bedroom at Ko’olina on Oahu. They were ready willing and able to buy mine for $8300 less 500.  So I think it might depend on property, although the process seemed alive and well.  They also acknowledged it was a low ball bid and after market would net me more.  They quoted after market prices from 4-17K.  Very friendly and helpful. Aloha


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## topdog (Oct 2, 2019)

What is the number to call for a possible buyback?


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## Fasttr (Oct 2, 2019)

topdog said:


> What is the number to call for a possible buyback?


https://www.marriottvacationclub.com/exit/


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## topdog (Oct 2, 2019)

thanks


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