# The Pressure to Enroll Before 12/31/10 is on



## IngridN (Dec 2, 2010)

I've been pressured to enroll in DC and have resisted to date. For us, it makes sense fee-wise, continuing in the legacy weeks mode. I've been waiting to enroll as the 800 pt incentive doesn't work for me...2011 ressies have been made and there are no drive-to locations that would entice for a long weekend stay.

I received the following v-mail message when I came home tonight...fees to join DC are 'going up over $1K' effective 1/1/11, so I'd better join before 12/31  . Has anyone else received any indication as to fee increases? I can't believe they would raise fees that much as I really believe they need us to join and not drive us away.

Ingrid


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## ilene13 (Dec 2, 2010)

IngridN said:


> I've been pressured to enroll in DC and have resisted to date. For us, it makes sense fee-wise, continuing in the legacy weeks mode. I've been waiting to enroll as the 800 pt incentive doesn't work for me...2011 ressies have been made and there are no drive-to locations that would entice for a long weekend stay.
> 
> I received the following v-mail message when I came home tonight...fees to join DC are 'going up over $1K' effective 1/1/11, so I'd better join before 12/31  . Has anyone else received any indication as to fee increases? I can't believe they would raise fees that much as I really believe they need us to join and not drive us away.
> 
> Ingrid



We too have resisted joining.  I have not received anything about the DC program---that includes initial information.  Without TUG I would have been totally in the dark.  I spoke to a friend last night who owns 4 or 5 Marriott weeks in Hilton Head and she knew nothing about the program.  When she was in HH last summer no one approached her about it---she owns at Grande Ocean!!  We go to Aruba on Dec. 19th--it will be interesting to see if they try to push us to enroll.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 2, 2010)

The sales rep we spoke with in Orlando said that prices were going up. Rumor was anything from $100 to $1000, though it is only a rumor, they don't know how much. Only that it is going to go up.

Given only 38000 enrollments (as of 11/15 per the Lakeshore Reserve sales office) that accounts for only 10%. I doubt the price will go up considerably.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 2, 2010)

No pressure except to attend a presentation when we were at our home resort. It was the first time I've ever resented Marriott for being agressive as they called us before we arrived, hit us up after we arrived, called our unit after we arrived AND left a letter on the door of our unit. Needless to say, we choose not to waste our vaction time with a salesman. 

The other night we got a phone call looking for referals. I declined and they pressed. Since they presssed, I let them know my thoughts on the new DC program and how I felt cheated by the way they reseasoned my home resorts, then what I thought about the skim. I told them I thought they could have done better by their legacy week owners and that I wouldn't be giving them referals in the future despite any incentives they might offer. 

The funny thing is, we'll probably join the DC before the end of the year only because the one fee structure makes better economic sense for us than the ala carte fee's. I'm in no hurry to throw Marriott any additional $$ and, the bonus points will be a challange for us to use since they expire at the end of 2011. In order to use them, I'll need to rearrange some of our exisiting vacation plans AND hope that I can get a reservation in one of three resorts within driving distance. I don't feel like paying for airfare to take a weekend vacation. The alternative would be to add nights to an exisiting vacation or, maybe book one or two nights at Oceana Palms when we're at Ocean Pointe, just so I can see an Oceana Palms unit without a sales rep. Basically, the bonus points expire to soon to be of any real use to me so, why give up $695 + the $199 yearly fee's any sooner than is necessary.......if at all.


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## winger (Dec 2, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> ...
> 
> The other night we got a phone call looking for referals. I declined and they pressed. Since they presssed, I let them know my thoughts on the new DC program and how I felt cheated by the way they reseasoned my home resorts, then what I thought about the skim. I told them I thought they could have done better by their legacy week owners and that I wouldn't be giving them referals in the future despite any incentives they might offer.



Way to go, Doug   




dougp26364 said:


> ...the bonus points will be a challange for us to use since they expire at the end of 2011. In order to use them, I'll need to rearrange some of our exisiting vacation plans AND hope that I can get a reservation in one of three resorts within driving distance. I don't feel like paying for airfare to take a weekend vacation. ....


 IF I recall correctly, I think you just have to make a reservation by the end of Dec 2011 using the Bonus Plus points. If this were correct, you may have a bit more time to play with.

In our case we were able to make good use of the Bonus Plus pts even though we already had a packed 2010 and 2011.  We simply tacked on three additional nights at the beginning of a reservation I already had (Thanksgiving at Newport Coast Villas) + threw in two more free nights (using our two Black Marriott Visa card's anniversary certificates)  making a nice two weeks getaway!

I then tacked on two more nights to two nights using our DRI for a nice Memorial getaway at South Lake Tahoe (3+ hours driving for us) for a nice four night getway : )


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## ilene13 (Dec 2, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> The funny thing is, we'll probably join the DC before the end of the year only because the one fee structure makes better economic sense for us than the ala carte fee's. I'm in no hurry to throw Marriott any additional $$ and, the bonus points will be a challange for us to use since they expire at the end of 2011. In order to use them, I'll need to rearrange some of our exisiting vacation plans AND hope that I can get a reservation in one of three resorts within driving distance. I don't feel like paying for airfare to take a weekend vacation. The alternative would be to add nights to an exisiting vacation or, maybe book one or two nights at Oceana Palms when we're at Ocean Pointe, just so I can see an Oceana Palms unit without a sales rep. Basically, the bonus points expire to soon to be of any real use to me so, why give up $695 + the $199 yearly fee's any sooner than is necessary.......if at all.



The interesting thing about the fee structure is that it doesn't work for everyone.  The properties in Hilton Head are not lock-offs due to a HH ordinance--so no fee.  I own 1 bedroom units in Aruba, so again no split fee.  I also own 3 weeks at the Royal Resorts in Mexico, so I would have to have 2 II accounts.  We will probably not join as I do not see any advantage to the program.


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## windje2000 (Dec 2, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> The funny thing is, we'll probably join the DC before the end of the year only because the one fee structure makes better economic sense for us than the ala carte fee's. I'm in no hurry to throw Marriott any additional $$ and, the bonus points will be a challange for us to use since they expire at the end of 2011. In order to use them, I'll need to rearrange some of our exisiting vacation plans AND hope that I can get a reservation in one of three resorts within driving distance. I don't feel like paying for airfare to take a weekend vacation. The alternative would be to add nights to an exisiting vacation or, maybe book one or two nights at Oceana Palms when we're at Ocean Pointe, just so I can see an Oceana Palms unit without a sales rep. Basically, the bonus points expire to soon to be of any real use to me so, why give up $695 + the $199 yearly fee's any sooner than is necessary.......if at all.



I'm in the same situation and have a similar opinion.  

Although I frankly find it difficult to comprehend how a start-up having such small market share could materially affect II, I am seeing substantially less inventory that interests me on II.  If that's the way the future will look,  I'm starting to wonder if the avoided II exchange fees are worth the price of admission.  

I have had requests in and have been waiting a long time for what should be (and historically have been) easy lateral trades.  No explanation from II CSRs.  Wonder if there's some type of a 'hold' on some of this occupancy.

If there are no acceptable M to M exchanges available in II, you won't pay an exchange fee either in the Club or not in the Club.  And M to non-M exchanges still require payment of a fee.  Since I'm not in (yet) I can't determine if the request could be fulfilled with points.


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## winger (Dec 2, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> I'm in the same situation and have a similar opinion.
> ... Since I'm not in (yet) I can't determine if the request could be fulfilled with points.



Any of your nice TUG friends enrolled in the new DC syst can do checks on availability for you


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## taffy19 (Dec 2, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> I'm in the same situation and have a similar opinion.
> 
> Although I frankly find it difficult to comprehend how a start-up having such small market share could materially affect II, I am seeing substantially less inventory that interests me on II. If that's the way the future will look, I'm starting to wonder if the avoided II exchange fees are worth the price of admission.
> 
> ...


Am I understanding you right that, if you join the DCEP, you still may not see the weeks in II through the Marriott?  I was under the impression that Marriott can make requests in II if they give up one of the units that are equivalent in value so there would be an advantage of joining.  Does that mean that Marriott is under equal footing as the people who do not join this club?  I am so confused.

Another question is, if I lock off our 2 BR condo, can I still rent it out as a 2 BR condo or do a direct exchange as a 1 or 2 BR unit?  Are there more charges involved?

From what I hear from II is that there is nothing available on Maui during March.  I believe that she even told me that there were no other resorts available besides the Marriott.


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## windje2000 (Dec 2, 2010)

iconnections said:


> Am I understanding you right that, if you join the DCEP, you still may not see the weeks in II through the Marriott?  I was under the impression that Marriott can make requests in II if they give up one of the units that are equivalent in value so there would be an advantage of joining.  Does that mean that Marriott is under equal footing as the people who do not join this club?  I am so confused.
> 
> Another question is, if I lock off our 2 BR condo, can I still rent it out as a 2 BR condo or do a direct exchange as a 1 or 2 BR unit?  Are there more charges involved?
> 
> From what I hear from II is that there is nothing available on Maui during March.  I believe that she even told me that there were no other resorts available besides the Marriott.



Hi Emmy

First Paragraph - I don't know if what you see is any different - most say it isn't.  I was under that impression that they can as well, but whether they will is another matter.  They really want points play.  I don't know and am becoming more cynical as my requests linger on unfilled in II.  

Second Paragraph - If you lock off, but rent both sides (assuming they are for the same week) to one party, you have rented a 2 BR.  I think the bundled fee covers it all.

I have no interest in HI - too far for me.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 2, 2010)

ilene13 said:


> The interesting thing about the fee structure is that it doesn't work for everyone.  The properties in Hilton Head are not lock-offs due to a HH ordinance--so no fee.  I own 1 bedroom units in Aruba, so again no split fee.  I also own 3 weeks at the Royal Resorts in Mexico, so I would have to have 2 II accounts.  We will probably not join as I do not see any advantage to the program.



If you own only one week or if you don't own lock-off weeks, then the DC really doesn't make a lot of sense unless you need the flexablity of a points based system. IMHO, Marriott really didn't do legacy week owners any favors. Right now, all I see them doing is trying to paint lipstick on a pig. 

They can push all they want. They can threaten that the price will go up and incentives will go away. It won't matter if the program doesn't make sense to legacy week owners at todays price. The threat of a price increase falls on deaf ears when the price vs benefit is already do high.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 2, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> I'm in the same situation and have a similar opinion.
> 
> Although I frankly find it difficult to comprehend how a start-up having such small market share could materially affect II, I am seeing substantially less inventory that interests me on II.  If that's the way the future will look,  I'm starting to wonder if the avoided II exchange fees are worth the price of admission.
> 
> ...



So far we've had no trouble gettting the exchanges we wanted for 2011. I have not begun to request for 2012. I really don't believe the DC will have any large material affect on I.I. inventory. I believe it's all smoke, mirrors and hogwash on the part of Marriott sales weasels. 

I choose to believe that inventory is shorter secondary to the economic times. Delinquencies are up at every resort I own meaning those weeks are available to deposit into I.I.'s inventory. I further believe that when times are tough, people will use their home resorts more often and save the extra fee's like exchange fee's. I've found myself making fewer exchanges this past year and, I'm even toying with the idea of giving one of my weeks away so that I don't have to keep a personal I.I. account open should we decided to join the DC. Such are the times we live in. I believe that inventory is down across the board for exchange, not just Marriott inventory.


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## DanCali (Dec 2, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I really don't believe the DC will have any large material affect on I.I. inventory. I believe it's all smoke, mirrors and hogwash on the part of Marriott sales weasels.



I don't think the DC will impact owner deposits into II either, and I am not sure the number of those deposits changed much.

What did change in the number of units Marriott bulk banks into II, and that does seem to have an impact on inventory based on recent reports. I can only conclude that much of the trading success in the past, in particular trading up, has been the result of artificially inflated inventory due to bulk deposits. I now do tend to believe the Marriott salespeople when they say "those days are gone" (referring to trading a studio into a Hawaii 2BR), but I think that "like for like exchanges" should still be doable, whether into Marriott or not. And "like for like" is more than the DC offers...

I'm certainly not paying $2K to chase after the bulk deposits, only to have Marriott use that inventory in a different way in a couple of years. And like you said, if it doesn't make sense at $2K (or $600), it won't make sense if it were $100 or $1000 more...


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## suzannesimon (Dec 2, 2010)

IngridN said:


> I've been pressured to enroll in DC and have resisted to date. For us, it makes sense fee-wise, continuing in the legacy weeks mode. I've been waiting to enroll as the 800 pt incentive doesn't work for me...2011 ressies have been made and there are no drive-to locations that would entice for a long weekend stay.
> 
> I received the following v-mail message when I came home tonight...fees to join DC are 'going up over $1K' effective 1/1/11, so I'd better join before 12/31  . Has anyone else received any indication as to fee increases? I can't believe they would raise fees that much as I really believe they need us to join and not drive us away.
> 
> Ingrid



I received an email this morning that fees were going up on December 29, but they didn't say how much.  I'm fine with the legacy weeks also.  I like trading, I'm not married to Marriott and I like being surprised when I find out where I'm going.  Plus, if I take any more vacations, I'll probably be fired!


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## m61376 (Dec 2, 2010)

*What are people's thoughts about resale weeks?*

I've skimmed most of the posts but, truthfully, have been pretty busy recently planning a wedding , so I may have missed a discussion about this. What's the consensus as to joining because of the issue of grandfathering resale weeks? 

Personally, I think that while a few properties fared well, many (most?) others were short shifted on points. The skim factor, coupled with the fact that Aruba weeks were allocated less points than properties which Marriott itself charges half the price to rent makes me feel that, at least for my particular situation, the DC leaves a lot to be desired. 

I actually intended to see how things played out and then address this later in the year, but I've been otherwise occupied and this has taken a back burner. Now that the end of Dec. is around the corner this post has reminded me that it's time again to think about this. I don't foresee myself using the point program in the near future. I think either using or trading or weeks work best. However, the weeks were purchased resale and I am wondering if it makes sense to bite the bullet and pay the "surcharge" so as to ensure making our ownership "future proof."

How do other resale owners feel? Part of me feels that resale purchasers might be better served by joining as protection for any future changes, since it puts resale owners on an even playing field with direct purchasers. Or- am I throwing good money away? I don't think the issue is the same for developer purchasers, since Marriott will be happy to embrace them at any point down the road. I am not so sure that they won't slam the door shut for resale owners in the future, and am concerned whether they will find ways to reward members of the DC whether using points or weeks (as in giving DC members some sort of elite status down the road).

Any thoughts?


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## dioxide45 (Dec 2, 2010)

m61376 said:


> I've skimmed most of the posts but, truthfully, have been pretty busy recently planning a wedding , so I may have missed a discussion about this. What's the consensus as to joining because of the issue of grandfathering resale weeks?



I think those properties/seasons as you say faired well got plenty of enrollments regardless of internal or external purchase. Those HI, 3BR non lockoff and HHI summer owners will do well to enroll regardless of the enrollment cost. Not many other weeks fared well and even the HI weeks experienced plenty of skim given their all platinum season.

The big sell on enrolling at our Orlando presentation was to get our resale weeks on the same level as internal purchases. Not sure I am buying it, it seems Marriott will always find a way to have multi class ownership and has no problems sticking it to external purchases. I think this will hold true in the DC world also.



> Personally, I think that while a few properties fared well, many (most?) others were short shifted on points. The skim factor, coupled with the fact that Aruba weeks were allocated less points than properties which Marriott itself charges half the price to rent makes me feel that, at least for my particular situation, the DC leaves a lot to be desired.



The Orlando sales rep indicated that when allocating points to resorts all Marriott did was look at the current sales prices at conversion and divide that by 11. It seems about right looking at most of the numbers. This means points has nothing to do with supply and demand thus no tie to rental prices. Just a way for Marriott to appease those who spent big dollars on their units by giving them lots of points.



> I actually intended to see how things played out and then address this later in the year, but I've been otherwise occupied and this has taken a back burner. Now that the end of Dec. is around the corner this post has reminded me that it's time again to think about this. I don't foresee myself using the point program in the near future. I think either using or trading or weeks work best. However, the weeks were purchased resale and I am wondering if it makes sense to bite the bullet and pay the "surcharge" so as to ensure making our ownership "future proof."



With Marriott and any system, is it really future proof? Perhaps just staying unenrolled is the true way to keep it future proof.



> How do other resale owners feel? Part of me feels that resale purchasers might be better served by joining as protection for any future changes, since it puts resale owners on an even playing field with direct purchasers. Or- am I throwing good money away? I don't think the issue is the same for developer purchasers, since Marriott will be happy to embrace them at any point down the road. I am not so sure that they won't slam the door shut for resale owners in the future, and am concerned whether they will find ways to reward members of the DC whether using points or weeks (as in giving DC members some sort of elite status down the road).
> 
> Any thoughts?



I doubt that there will be much more offered in the way of elite status down the road. Marriott won't likely offer elite MR status to owners any time soon. There are also ownership classes in DC points based on the number of points owned that has nothing to do with how one purchased.


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## curbysplace (Dec 3, 2010)

All the discussion whether or not to join the DC program comes down to the specific circumstances of each owner.  Most situations were discussed above or at length in other discussions. 

What hasn't gotten much ink is that many resales were purchased at bargain basement prices.  For a multiple unit owner when you spread out the enrollment fee over those units it still leaves the resale purchase price per TS unit at that bargain basement level. Yes it's a tough decision to consider shelling out $1995 to Marriott but when computed on a per unit basis it may appear to make more sense. 

So given that the cost per unit is relativley reasonable additional benefits I gained in the DC program are options that were otherwise unavailable i.e., no more lock-off fee, ability to change reservations without a fee, ability to trade for non-expiring reward points (yes, I understand Marriott ultimately controls their value but it is a newly available option), & using the DC points.  In my case the $235 refund of my pre-paid three years of II fees went quite a ways towards the the buy-in fee, got value putting the 800 bonus points to use for 2011 and have sold a Tugger 100 of my 325 leftover regular 2011 DC points which worked well for both of us.  Now I just have to figure what to do with the remaining 225 points for 2011; an advantage with them is they have much more flexibility than the bonus points.


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## DanCali (Dec 3, 2010)

m61376 said:


> I've skimmed most of the posts but, truthfully, have been pretty busy recently planning a wedding , so I may have missed a discussion about this. What's the consensus as to joining because of the issue of grandfathering resale weeks?
> 
> Personally, I think that while a few properties fared well, many (most?) others were short shifted on points. The skim factor, coupled with the fact that Aruba weeks were allocated less points than properties which Marriott itself charges half the price to rent makes me feel that, at least for my particular situation, the DC leaves a lot to be desired.
> 
> ...



There really isn't a consensus...

An unscientific sampling of reasons cited to enroll will reveal that the vast majority are citing the "fee savings" reason. Many fewer actually seem intent on using points to make exchanges because, as you said, the skim hurts too much.

Personally, I thing the fee savings are just bait for bad things to come (e.g. higher fees, or control of DC weeks going to II). They also don't apply to me much since I don't own lockoffs and don't make many exchanges anyway.

The issue of being on an even playing field with retail purchasers is also irrelevant to me. If I cared about that, I would not have bought resale. I'll also never convert to MRPs anyway, so what's the point of being on the same field if you don't play the game anyway?

If you are unlikely to use the DC for short stays or downtrades, then the "fee savings" may be the only reason to join. For $2000, it's a tough sell and long payback period for many...


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## dougp26364 (Dec 3, 2010)

DanCali said:


> There really isn't a consensus...
> 
> An unscientific sampling of reasons cited to enroll will reveal that the vast majority are citing the "fee savings" reason. Many fewer actually seem intent on using points to make exchanges because, as you said, the skim hurts too much.
> 
> ...




While fee savings might be one of the bigger reason to join, I think the biggest reason I've read is locking in membership now to protect future options. Fear seems to be Marriott's great motivator for the moment.


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## windje2000 (Dec 3, 2010)

curbysplace said:


> All the discussion whether or not to join the DC program comes down to the specific circumstances of each owner.  Most situations were discussed above or at length in other discussions.
> 
> *What hasn't gotten much ink is that many resales were purchased at bargain basement prices.  For a multiple unit owner when you spread out the enrollment fee over those units it still leaves the resale purchase price per TS unit at that bargain basement level. Yes it's a tough decision to consider shelling out $1995 to Marriott but when computed on a per unit basis it may appear to make more sense. *
> 
> So given that the cost per unit is relativley reasonable additional benefits I gained in the DC program are options that were otherwise unavailable i.e., no more lock-off fee, ability to change reservations without a fee, ability to trade for non-expiring reward points (yes, I understand Marriott ultimately controls their value but it is a newly available option), & using the DC points.  In my case the $235 refund of my pre-paid three years of II fees went quite a ways towards the the buy-in fee, got value putting the 800 bonus points to use for 2011 and have sold a Tugger 100 of my 325 leftover regular 2011 DC points which worked well for both of us.  Now I just have to figure what to do with the remaining 225 points for 2011; an advantage with them is they have much more flexibility than the bonus points.



The price at which an asset changes hands between a well informed willing buyer and seller in an arm's length transaction where neither party is under compulsion to act is fair market value.  

The ebay resales are auction values.  The Marriott developer prices represent the actions of less than well informed buyers.  Developer prices reflect heavy overhead burdens, e.g. marketing expense. 

The fact that resale transaction prices are so far below what Marriott seeks to obtain for the same real estate (with some added perks) suggests that at least one and probably both of these indicators of value are wrong.  

Why should anyone pay more to Marriott because they found a good deal on real estate Marriott once sold to someone else?  (Ans. Because Marriott can get away with it.)  The logical extension of that reasoning is the enrollment fee should be on a sliding schedule.   The less you paid for your resale, the higher the enrollment fee.  

The price behavior observed in these two markets should have no influence on whether or not it makes economic sense to join.  Whether or not one joins should be based on the benefits obtained in exchange for the fee.

A resale will always be a resale if Marriott chooses to treat them differently.  The asterisk is not removed when you join, you're just listed on the same roster with the other members - - - as long as you pay your dues.


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## m61376 (Dec 3, 2010)

Could Marriott handle internal week trades of destination club members, or is it extremely unlikely? The reason I ask this is that I had been told by a sales manager that the internal trading system would be handling Marriott to Marriott trades of weeks as well as points. My initial reaction was that it wasn't the way the system has been defined, but did get me wondering, since it would be an easy way for Marriott to get weeks for DC members using points. 

I am probably (as usual) over-thinking this, but of course this would impact any potential benefit of joining even if continuing to use weeks.

And, Doug, you are so right- at least for me, the only reason I am considering joining is angst, uncertainty, fear- whatever you want to term it. Lousy reason to shell out 2K.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 3, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Could Marriott handle internal week trades of destination club members, or is it extremely unlikely? The reason I ask this is that I had been told by a sales manager that the internal trading system would be handling Marriott to Marriott trades of weeks as well as points. My initial reaction was that it wasn't the way the system has been defined, but did get me wondering, since it would be an easy way for Marriott to get weeks for DC members using points.
> 
> I am probably (as usual) over-thinking this, but of course this would impact any potential benefit of joining even if continuing to use weeks.
> 
> And, Doug, you are so right- at least for me, the only reason I am considering joining is angst, uncertainty, fear- whatever you want to term it. Lousy reason to shell out 2K.



A phone rep tried to tell me that Marriott would be handling week to week trades through DC, leaving II out of the mix. I however find this highly doubtful. Why go to all the work to assign points, value weeks and develop a points chart just to do what II does?

I am willing to bet that there is also something in their latest agreement with II that would prevent them from directly competing with II in this week for week manner.


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## m61376 (Dec 4, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> A phone rep tried to tell me that Marriott would be handling week to week trades through DC, leaving II out of the mix. I however find this highly doubtful. Why go to all the work to assign points, value weeks and develop a points chart just to do what II does?
> 
> I am willing to bet that there is also something in their latest agreement with II that would prevent them from directly competing with II in this week for week manner.


I agree with everything you've said; exactly my thoughts when I was told this a few months back. 

I guess with Dec. 31st approaching I'm getting a bit antsy, especially since I haven't thought of this for quite awhile


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## kjd (Dec 4, 2010)

The salesperson's statements to Dan Cali that the days of trading up are "gone forever" is wishful thinking IMO.  There will always be a need for flextime or a similar program to get rid of inventory about to expire. I realize that get-aways are also being offered but there are far too many unused units to be absorbed as get-aways.

The alternative salespeople suggest for legacy owners is to join the DC which immediately depreciatres the value of your unit while also charging you for the right to do it.  If flextime is not a good alternative then trading for a non-Marriott select timeshare might be wise.  If I.I. is going to remain viable they must be able to attract other good timeshare companies.  Otherwise, companies like SFX will get a larger share of the market.  What the salesperson could have said is that the time for Marriott may be over.

Turning in your Marriott timeshare for points was always ridiculed by some as a rip-off of the direct purchasers.  Maybe it's not such a bad idea now after the skim and the points depreciation of the DC are considered.  You can get 6-7 nights for around 110,000 points at many Marriott hotels with a kitchen and free breakfasts. That can be a better option than the DC for some of us.


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## kjd (Dec 4, 2010)

The salesperson's statements to Dan Cali that the days of trading up are "gone forever" is wishful thinking IMO.  There will always be a need for flextime or a similar program to get rid of inventory about to expire. I realize that get-aways are also being offered but there are far too many unused units to be absorbed as get-aways.

The alternative salespeople suggest for legacy owners is to join the DC which immediately depreciatres the value of your unit while also charging you for the right to do it.  If flextime is not a good alternative then trading for a non-Marriott select timeshare might be wise.  If I.I. is going to remain viable they must be able to attract other good timeshare companies.  Otherwise, companies like SFX will get a larger share of the market.  What the salesperson could have said is that the time for Marriott may be over.

Turning in your Marriott timeshare for points was always ridiculed by some as a rip-off of the direct purchasers.  Maybe it's not such a bad idea now after the skim and the points depreciation of the DC are considered.  You can get 6-7 nights for around 110,000 points at many Marriott hotels with a kitchen and free breakfasts. That can be a better option than the DC for some of us.


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## burg1121 (Dec 4, 2010)

I'm not sure I understand why joining the DC devalues your week. Is it because of the skim?


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## kjd (Dec 6, 2010)

My understanding of the points system/DC for legacy owners leads me to believe that it depreciates your ownership in two ways in addition to the usual market depreciation.  One, with points you will have fewer nights at your home resort because of the skim. Therefore, your week is shrunk to 5 or 6 nights.  You can purchase more points but that is, in effect a price increase from your original purchase.  Secondly, you will have a difficult time selling a points system week because a buyer will have a high initial cost to get in the program.  Buyers will take that into account.

It's fine if you want to stay in either program and never sell.  You will never be subject to any depreciation. It's when you want to sell or trade your unit that these problems arise.


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## wof45 (Dec 6, 2010)

i don't see how enrolling in DC can depreciate your unit, since all of the things that can be done today remain.  

You pay an additional initial and yearly fee to be able to turn a week into DC points, but you also do not need to pay some of the ongoing fees from today.

You can still choose a week in season at your own resort rather than converting to fees.

You have the same resale opportunities you have today if you are not enrolled, and we do not yet know what resale capabilities there will be for DC membership.

Whether or not it makes sense to enroll in DC depends on personal needs, but I don't see how it is an immediate negative.


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## DanCali (Dec 6, 2010)

burg1121 said:


> I'm not sure I understand why joining the DC devalues your week. Is it because of the skim?



The mere existence of the DC devalued all of our weeks...

Timeshare prices from January to June were relatively flat (at least the ones I have been following). Since June they are down 15%-20%. 

You cannot really blame it on the economy anymore (the extent of recovery is debatable but most will agree it hasn't really worsened this year). You cannot blame it on MFs (these declines in resale prices happened prior to MFs being released). 

Prices went down because there is a new exchange system out there and weeks being purchased today in the resale market cannot join it. Even though the new exchange system is a dud and is not worth joining IMO, it is still a perception issue and inevitably affects resale prices. Especially when salespeople are saying "II is dead".

I'm not sure this benefits Marriott in the long-run though, because competing with $5K weeks is harder than competing with $10K weeks...


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## DanCali (Dec 6, 2010)

wof45 said:


> You can still choose a week in season at your own resort rather than converting to fees.



Sure...

But you cannot exchange into a high demand week to a like-for-like resort in a like-for-like season in a like-for like view for 7 days, can you?


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## SueDonJ (Dec 6, 2010)

kjd said:


> My understanding of the points system/DC for legacy owners leads me to believe that it depreciates your ownership in two ways in addition to the usual market depreciation.  *One, with points you will have fewer nights at your home resort because of the skim. Therefore, your week is shrunk to 5 or 6 nights.*  You can purchase more points but that is, in effect a price increase from your original purchase.  Secondly, you will have a difficult time selling a points system week because a buyer will have a high initial cost to get in the program.  Buyers will take that into account.
> 
> It's fine if you want to stay in either program and never sell.  You will never be subject to any depreciation. It's when you want to sell or trade your unit that these problems arise.



I agree that the advent of the Destination Club causes a severe depreciation in the monetary value of your Week if you were to try to sell it, but it's actually a whole lot more severe than you say above.  At this point ANY Weeks sold on the resale market after June 20, 2010 are not eligible to be enrolled in the Destination Club.  There isn't an "initial cost to get in the program" for ANY resale buyer to consider because there isn't an opportunity for a buyer to enroll a resale Week.  There will always be buyers who want to purchase Weeks for home resort usage, II exchanges, private rentals or exchanges, etc. but IMO the overall resale market will suffer because even buyers who want only those options may perceive a devaluation when they're told that the DC is not an option.

But I'm confused about your first point that's bolded above.  Enrolling in the DC does NOT mean that you must use Points for a home resort stay.  An enrolled Week can be EITHER reserved as before at the home resort OR converted to Points for DC use.  You can enroll and still use your 7-night Week in the exact same manner as you've been doing - again, home resort usage, II exchanges, private rentals or exchanges, etc.  It's only when you convert your Week to Points for exchanges through the DC Exchange Company that "skim" may come into play, depending on the Point value of what you own and what you want in an exchange (and compared to what you may get for the same deposit from II.)


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## wof45 (Dec 6, 2010)

my observation on the fall in values is a little different.

What we have noticed looking particularly at real estate and luxuries, is that the recession has changed.  

We can see that unemployment is no longer in free fall.  We can see that there has been some recovery in many section of investments.  We can see a bottom in some real estate located near jobs.

But I still see real estate in retirement and vacation areas way down, with few sales.  Any vacations are way off as wary people are still staying near home or taking last minute vacation.  (you certainly see this with retirement condos in South Florida and the South West as well as ski condos)

I think that timeshares are seen as a postponable purchase, and without Marriott exercising ROFR for most properties, this is just a sad part of the economy.  And a good time for someone with cash to pick up good weeks at good properties at a good price -- as long as you are not too worried about the industry as a whole crashing if people are not able to pay MF in the future.

It will be interesting to see the percentage of non-payment over the next few months, and how it is dealt with


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## SueDonJ (Dec 6, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Sure...
> 
> But you cannot exchange into a high demand week to a like-for-like resort in a like-for-like season in a like-for like view for 7 days, can you?



But if you can't do that with II either (due to limited availability,) which is admittedly something that affects only a small number of Weeks, then the DC may give you more options than II does.


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## wof45 (Dec 6, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Sure...
> 
> But you cannot exchange into a high demand week to a like-for-like resort in a like-for-like season in a like-for like view for 7 days, can you?



the way you did this before was using II, and you can still use II in the same way.   We don't know if there will be enough II inventory, but joining the points program does not change this ability -- you just can't necessarily do it using DC points.

We're still waiting to see what they come up with for resale of Points memberships or Points enrollments.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 6, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Sure...
> 
> But you cannot exchange into a high demand week to a like-for-like resort in a like-for-like season in a like-for like view for 7 days, can you?



Just one nit-picky thing - with II you can't request and you're never guaranteed a view type.  There are resorts where you'll be placed into the exact unit type which matches the unit designation on the II confirmation, but there are as many resorts which use a priority placement system that totally discounts the info on that confirmation - home resort owners exchanging in are bumped up to a better view while non-home resort owners are bumped down, Marriott owners exchanging in to a non-home resort are bumped up while non-Marriott owners are bumped down, multi-Week Marriott owners are ahead of single-Week owners are ahead of non-Marriott owners, etc., and we have no idea where Marriott has decided the DC Trust Members and Exchange Members should fall on the published lists.  Of course they'll be placed into the view type that they purchased with Points (the same way that owners using their home resort are placed into the view type they purchased,) but if there are two oceanside requests being filled by one DC exchange and one II exchange, who is going to get the oceanside unit with a great view of the ocean and who is going to get the oceanside unit with a view of the parking lot?

That's actually one of my favorite features of the DC - you can pick and choose the view you want, spending or saving Points where it suits you.


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## jimf41 (Dec 6, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Sure...
> 
> But you cannot exchange into a high demand week to a like-for-like resort in a like-for-like season in a like-for like view for 7 days, can you?



Plat 2bdrm OS at Ocean Pointe 4325 for conversion. Plat 2bdrm OF 4125 Frenchman's Cove to reserve. IMO that's better than like for like. That's an uptrade with DC points left over. But it only works if there is availability. That remains to be seen.


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## DanCali (Dec 6, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> But if you can't do that with II either (due to limited availability,) which is admittedly something that affects only a small number of Weeks, then the DC may give you more options than II does.





SueDonJ said:


> Just one nit-picky thing - with II you can't request and you're never guaranteed a view type.



You CAN exchange into a like for like resort in II into a high demand week if the availability is there (and people do tend to deposit high demand weeks). In the DC it is impossible...

View isn't an issue that affects most resorts or owner/weeks (Orlando, Vegas, NCV etc) but as long as we are nit-picking - I don't think an IV owner can trade down in view in II... As for OV/OF owners, personally I'd prefer an exchange that got me 7 days in an IV versus 5 days in an OV in a like for like resort, but I guess that's debatable...


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## DanCali (Dec 6, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> Plat 2bdrm OS at Ocean Pointe 4325 for conversion. Plat 2bdrm OF 4125 Frenchman's Cove to reserve. IMO that's better than like for like. That's an uptrade with DC points left over...



Hmmm...   I doubt the Platinum FC owner who got  allocated about 3700 points feels the same way...


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## SueDonJ (Dec 6, 2010)

DanCali said:


> You CAN exchange into a like for like resort in II into a high demand week if the availability is there (and people do tend to deposit high demand weeks). In the DC it is impossible...



Certainly rare, but not impossible as Jim just pointed out with his Plat 2BR Ocean Pointe oceanside unit for Plat 2BR Frenchman's Cove oceanfront unit, with Points leftover.  I'd call that better than like-for-like using Points.

Plus, II availability isn't subject to only whether or not someone else has deposited an equal-value Week.  Non-lock-off 3BR owners have ZERO chance of like-for-like if the resort to which they're exchanging doesn't have anything larger than a 2BR.  Unless, of course, they're lucky enough to get an II rep who knows the magic formula for XYZ exchanges, are willing to pay another exchange fee for using an XYZ, and have extra vacation time to take advantage of the limited-time-only feature of the XYZ.



DanCali said:


> View isn't an issue that affects most resorts or owner/weeks (Orlando, Vegas, NCV etc) but as long as we are nit-picking - I don't think an IV owner can trade down in view in II... As for OV/OF owners, personally I'd prefer an exchange that got me 7 days in an IV versus 5 days in an OV in a like for like resort, but I guess that's debatable...



I've learned to never rely on view with II because it's a setup for possible disappointment at check-in.  Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose (and I've had both happen to me) but you don't know in advance of check-in and there are no guarantees.  View is important to us but it's certainly understandable that not all feel the same way.

As for not being able to trade down in II from the view you own if it's the lowest tier view - the IV example you gave - well, of course.  But how many lower-tier views are there compared to the higher-tiers, and who is more likely to suffer disappointment if the II confirmation view is not matched because of a priority placement system? 



DanCali said:


> Hmmm...   I doubt the Platinum FC owner who got  allocated about 3700 points feels the same way...



That's why it's necessary to point out that the DC isn't a one-size-fits-all program, and that its usage value depends solely upon what you own and how its use compares between the DC and II.


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## DanCali (Dec 6, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> As for not being able to trade down in II from the view you own if it's the lowest tier view - the IV example you gave - well, of course.  But how many lower-tier views are there compared to the higher-tiers, and who is more likely to suffer disappointment if the II confirmation view is not matched because of a priority placement system?



I'd ask a different question...

Out of the ~700,000 owner/weeks (650,000 listed here as of 4 years ago), how many owner/weeks even have a deeded view? 

My guess is that it's less than 25%, but I could be wrong. and, of those, you have the IV weeks that don't really care what happens in II. The view or room side downtrade in II is real, but it affects a small minority of owners. Skim and (resale value) devaluation due to the DC affect everyone... Since the DC launched, your weeks are worth 10%-15% less - that's a hefty price to pay for the option to trade laterally or up in view (and down in every other aspect), especially if you own multiple Platinum weeks.


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## wof45 (Dec 6, 2010)

DanCali said:


> You CAN exchange into a like for like resort in II into a high demand week if the availability is there (and people do tend to deposit high demand weeks). In the DC it is impossible...



I think you are trying to paint the DC as no choice, when it is really either / or.

if you are in the DC, you can decide if you want to use DC points, choose a to use at your resort or trade through II.  If you can do something with II, you can still do it as a DC member.

This year with our Marriott weeks, we have one in our new II account to trade, 2 exchanged for points and 2 traded for MRP.  We have 5 weeks vacation which will likely be use one week, two trade weeks through II, one week through DC points and TBD for the fifth week.


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## DanCali (Dec 6, 2010)

wof45 said:


> I think you are trying to paint the DC as no choice, when it is really either / or.



I am painting it the way I see it...

The reality is that most people on this board joined to either (i) save on fees and/or (ii) "protect their investment," whatever that may mean (it certainly doesn't protect resale value since DC membership does not transfer via resale, so I imagine it has to do with "keeping options open" and fear of II disintegration...).

Other than a few lucky ones who got more points than they expected for their resort/season (Maui and HHI in particular), very few can brag about the great uptrades the DC gets them. And even than, savvy Maui owners will conceed they can often do better in II with ACs and 2 for 1 deals.

In the meantime, billions of dollars in resale value evaporated due to Marriott's rules about lack of membership transferability. And this is all part of the cost of having the DC around...I lost about $3K in resale value since June - the best I can do now is keep the $2K it would cost me to join!


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## wof45 (Dec 6, 2010)

I understand your points.
We joined DC because we weren't sure how things would work out, but we will break even on fees and the bonus points in two years.  Maybe the whole concept will be great.

Our Marriotts have all been owned for 10-20 years and don't really fit our current lifestyle, so it would be nice to use DC points to choose weeks and views that fit our lifestyle now and in a few years when we retire.

I think it is a mistake to blame Marriott, since real estate in general is terrible and getting worse.  We track the houses and condos that we still own and rent, as well as South Florida where we plan to retire.  Since 2005 (and still slipping), central California (Yosemite) is off 60%, South Florida (Pompano) is off 50%, NH mountains is off 40%, Boston region is off 25%, Philadelphia region is off 20% 

I hope MVCI has found a way to survive.  I believe a lot of the older, smaller Timeshares will go under in the next few years due to unpaid MF for bad weeks.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 6, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I am painting it the way I see it...
> 
> The reality is that most people on this board joined to either (i) save on fees and/or (ii) "protect their investment," whatever that may mean (it certainly doesn't protect resale value since DC membership does not transfer via resale, so I imagine it has to do with "keeping options open" and fear of II disintegration...).
> 
> ...



It seems so important to you to say that there is no value in the DC for anyone, when it's an impossible blanket statement to make because value has different meaning for different folks.  What does it matter why folks have enrolled?  Even if it's not because they'll get uptrades from what they own and/or better exchanges from the DC than they've been getting from II, "saving on fees" and "protecting their investment" (from real or imaginary devaluations) are still forms of value.

When you're considering exchange value, what about the few folks who have routinely suffered "skim" from II exchanges?  For them the DC doesn't need to offer uptrade or like-for-like exchanges from what's owned in order to be considered valuable; it only needs to offer more than what's been the norm from II.  I'm in that group, and the DC certainly isn't giving me a diminished value compared to II.  But the folks who have gotten uptrades or like-for-like from II?  Well, they can continue using II as they've been doing while saving on fees - their exchange value isn't diminished either.  

Resale value - eh, it is what it is.  It's never made any sense to me to rant and rave at Marriott for resale devaluations because they don't have an obligation to protect resale value.  I think the DC has caused some of the current severe devaluation, and like others say the economy certainly plays a part, but again it doesn't make any sense to me to make that a factor in whether or not an owner enrolls his/her Weeks in the DC.  Resale devaluations affect ALL Weeks regardless of how many owners enroll or don't.  Now certainly the cost of enrollment is a factor that an owner should consider, but enrolling doesn't equate to throwing good money after bad unless you don't get any value from enrollment.


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## DanCali (Dec 6, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> It seems so important to you to say that there is no value in the DC for anyone, when it's an impossible blanket statement to make because value has different meaning for different folks.



I won't repeat what I said, but I did not say that...



SueDonJ said:


> Resale value - eh, it is what it is.  It's never made any sense to me to rant and rave at Marriott for resale devaluations because they don't have an obligation to protect resale value.



And I don't have an obligation to love or defend Marriott...



SueDonJ said:


> Now certainly the cost of enrollment is a factor that an owner should consider, but enrolling doesn't equate to throwing good money after bad unless you don't get any value from enrollment.



The metric should be in the benefits (fee savings or other) outweigh the costs, not if there is zero benefit or some benefit. Of course, some costs (II rule changes?) may still be unobserved, and I'm not restarting the debate as to whether or not such rule changes would apply to all owners or just DC enrollees...


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## jimf41 (Dec 6, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Hmmm...   I doubt the Platinum FC owner who got  allocated about 3700 points feels the same way...



3650 to be exact. I'm one of those owners. So I'll use my week at MFC and convert my week at MPB. At least that's my plan to make best use of the system. The goal in timesharing has always been to make the best use of the assets you control.

If I only owned a week at MFC I wouldn't see much benefit in joining. Having a diverse portfolio gives you the opportunity to look for more ways to make the DC system work for you.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 6, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> Plat 2bdrm OS at Ocean Pointe 4325 for conversion. Plat 2bdrm OF 4125 Frenchman's Cove to reserve. IMO that's better than like for like. That's an uptrade with DC points left over. But it only works if there is availability. That remains to be seen.



Obviously, sometimes it works. Unfortunately, to many times what I've looked at works out better in the weeks system rather than points.

I look at it this way. Every exchange I want to make I'll need to look at what I can do in points and what I can do with weeks. Eventually I'm sure they'll be a time when points works out. So far I haven't found that situation for our needs, wants or desires.


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## DanCali (Dec 6, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> If I only owned a week at MFC I wouldn't see much benefit in joining. Having a diverse portfolio gives you the opportunity to look for more ways to make the DC system work for you.





jimf41 said:


> Plat 2bdrm OS at Ocean Pointe 4325 for conversion. Plat 2bdrm OF 4125 Frenchman's Cove to reserve. IMO that's better than like for like. That's an uptrade with DC points left over. But it only works if there is availability. That remains to be seen.



At least you recognize that MFC availability via the DC may be an issue...


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## wof45 (Dec 6, 2010)

DanCali said:


> At least you recognize that MFC availability via the DC may be an issue...



I hope it's not too much of an issue since we want to use DC points there Feb 2012


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## dougp26364 (Dec 6, 2010)

I don't think availability with the DC is going to be much, if any, different than with weeks. Yes there will be "seperate" pools but it appears to me that the DC manager will be able to pull for either pool at will by transfering inventory between the pools. No I can't point out exactly where that is spelled out but, that's the general feeling I get when I read through all the "stuff" that's been posted, said or put in writing.


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## jimf41 (Dec 6, 2010)

DanCali said:


> At least you recognize that MFC availability via the DC may be an issue...



It's a huge issue. One of my worst fears is that I post back up here in JAN-MAR 2011 and have to say that the plan didn't work and the DC program is for the birds. Please go easy on me if I have to do that.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 7, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> It's a huge issue. One of my worst fears is that I post back up here in JAN-MAR 2011 and have to say that the plan didn't work and the DC program is for the birds. Please go easy on me if I have to do that.



Just keep in mind that there's no guarentee of availability if you were trying to pull off the same exchange in the weeks based system. 

Should it look as if the trade won't come off, I'm sure you've looked at options for a back up plan such as depositing points with I.I. for an exchange or saving the points to next year in order to stretch their shelf life. Since I really haven't given much thought to ever converting legacy weeks into points, failsafe options aren't something I've thought about.

For me, I'm still pretty comfortable with the request first option using weeks based exchanges. Since we like our home resorts well enough to go back every year if necessary, it's a secure option for us. With points I'd have to study the fall back options and develope a plan of attack that keeps me comfortable.


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