# Conversation with Marriott Customer Advocacy



## GregT (Jun 30, 2010)

All,

As you will recall from other threads, I posted on Bill Marriott's blog and also sent an email to customer.advocacy@vacationclub.com regarding points skimming. 

In both, I expressed my disappointment with the points skimming and gave my phone number and asked to speak to someone.  The director of the department called me and presented Marriott's position on the benefits that TUG has discussed elsewhere (flexibility to owners, need to cover housekeeping costs, vacant rooms, and uncertain supply/demand).  I told him that, while we understood these comments, that point skimming was still being negatively perceived by many in this ownership community and that I have been one of the primary pot-stirrers.  

I indicated that I suspected the reason behind the points skim was to keep the up-front and annual fees cost down but that the points skim seemed extremely high, and told him about the "analysis" that I had posted here on TUG (attached below).  I told him some owners would have liked the option to pay a higher up-front and keep something closer to full unit value and Marriott should have provided that alternative, if for no other reason but to appear owner-friendly and flexible (he said I have to option to buy points so I don't think he understood what I meant).  

Importantly, he did confirm that there was a intentional decision and trade-off regarding the lower introductory and annual pricing and the need to point skim and that Marriott had determined that a point skim (my word, not his) was the better way to maintain the up-front and annual pricing that has been introduced.    He agreed to let me post this in the interests of sharing this with the timeshare community.   I encouraged him to come up with a way to communicate this to the ownership community as I indicated Marriott's intentions could be perceived poorly, and I told him I was still not convinced (but I also admitted that I am very stubborn). 

The other interesting point about the conversation was that he confirmed that at some point in the future, something similar to an Open Season or Bonus Time system will be implemented.  In Marriott's version, it appears that within 30 days of check-in, if a unit remains vacant, then the points owner can book the available units at a discounted point rate from the normal points requirements.    It does appear that it would be a points exchange, versus some systems that permit cash rental, but at least something does appear forthcoming.   He agreed to let me post this as well.

I was pleased that Marriott has an advocacy group to reach out to people like me, a disgruntled owner, and provide answers to my questions even if I dislike the answers.  I don't feel any better about the points skimming, but it is good to have the confirmation about the trade-off between skimming and lower pricing and annual fees.

Best to all,

Greg

My thread on the trade-off from points skimming:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125213


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## LAX Mom (Jun 30, 2010)

GregT said:


> The other interesting point about the conversation was that he confirmed that at some point in the future, something similar to an Open Season or Bonus Time system will be implemented.  In Marriott's version, it appears that within 30 days of check-in, if a unit remains vacant, then the points owner can book the available units at a discounted point rate from the normal points requirements.    It does appear that it would be a points exchange, versus some systems that permit cash rental, but at least something does appear forthcoming.   He agreed to let me post this as well.



Considering that Marriott had 4+ years to work on this program, I can't understand why they didn't disclose all policies at the time of release. When I made some initial calls to Marriott I received several responses similar to this: "well we don't have that feature as part of the points program now, but we will likely release something at a later date."

How can they sell this program to new buyers and previous weeks owners when they can't even give us all of the details yet?


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## dougp26364 (Jun 30, 2010)

If Marriott thought that reaching into a persons back pocket is the way to go to cover costs, I'm afraid Marriott will find out that thought process was flat out wrong. 

I'm surprised that they might be afraid the program would cost to much up front to attract owners. I know when I completely reviewed DRI's offer of $2,995 to convert my deeded interests to points (keeping the deeds) I still found plenty of value in doing so.

Apparently, Marriott thinks of it's owners as idiots. Perhaps that's true of the vast majority. Still, it bothers me that they would think perhaps owners won't notice we're pick-pocketing them as we sell this program by giving them fewer points than we ask another owner to reserve at their resort. It simply seems very unethical. It's not something I would have expected from Marriott until June 20th, 2010. At this point, the trust I had placed in them has been broken. Once trust is lost they've lost the game. What a shame for Marriott to have taken the low road rather than being upfront about the program costs.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 30, 2010)

Even Marriott admits it knows what it was doing when it gave fewer points than it costs to book something.  They did it to make fees look artificially low.

They could have easily accommodated the need by increasing the maintenance fees by 7% instead of shorting owners on the exchange fee.  They hoped that owners wouldn't notice.  That was the clear bet.  

Regarding bonus time/ open season.  I was sure that Marriott would add this in primarily because it is a great closing feature and it gives them additional ways to sell off excess inventory.  That they didn't include it was a big miss by Marriott.  They will get it in there as soon as possible.


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## Dave M (Jun 30, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Even Marriott admits it knows what it was doing when it gave fewer points than it costs to book something.  They did it to make fees look artificially low.


Since the difference in points received versus points required exists only for Enrolled owners (not for pure points purchasers), I believe they did it to protect the 75%-80% of weeks owners who are not likely to enroll in the points program. See my first post in this thread for the reason why.


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

LAX Mom said:


> C
> 
> How can they sell this program to new buyers and previous weeks owners when they can't even give us all of the details yet?



I think the answer to this question is easy.  But first, you have to think who their target audience is.  And it isn't TUGgers. 
 1)There's TUGgers 
2)there's people like me (yes, I'm on TUG but frankly I don't get most of what you all are talking about !),

3) there's the average Marriott timeshare owner who bought and use their week to trade, 

4)there's those who only stay at their home resort for their week and they do not think about their timeshare other than when they are going and when they are due to pay their MF's.  

5)The only other audience is potential new buyers.  

I would guess that this program is geared first and foremost to #4 and #5.  And those people, and most of the people in #3 (and me in #2) don't know enough to ASK any of these questions.   And many of them don't really care.  They just want to go on vacation.


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> If Marriott thought that reaching into a persons back pocket is the way to go to cover costs, I'm afraid Marriott will find out that thought process was flat out wrong.
> 
> I'm surprised that they might be afraid the program would cost to much up front to attract owners. I know when I completely reviewed DRI's offer of $2,995 to convert my deeded interests to points (keeping the deeds) I still found plenty of value in doing so.
> 
> Apparently, Marriott thinks of it's owners as idiots. Perhaps that's true of the vast majority. Still, it bothers me that they would think perhaps owners won't notice we're pick-pocketing them as we sell this program by giving them fewer points than we ask another owner to reserve at their resort. It simply seems very unethical. It's not something I would have expected from Marriott until June 20th, 2010. At this point, the trust I had placed in them has been broken. Once trust is lost they've lost the game. What a shame for Marriott to have taken the low road rather than being upfront about the program costs.



As someone who is essentially an outsider looking in, I don't get this "beef" with skimming.  Quite frankly, were I in a different place in my life, the prospect of being able to trade my one week at Marriott Grande Ocean in Jun-Aug for 5 weeks at the same place in Dec-Feb may one day be VERY appealing to me!  If I was of retirement age I would in fact LOVE to spend 5 weeks at HHI rather than in MW OH.   I don't really care how the points measure out.  I did the comparison, and that is how it works out.  Really, this is the same as complaining that your rewards points buys you less  in busy peak times than it does on off season, off peak times.


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## brigechols (Jun 30, 2010)

Dave M said:


> Since the difference in points received versus points required exists only for Enrolled owners (not for pure points purchasers), I believe they did it to protect the 75%-80% of weeks owners who are not likely to enroll in the points program. See my first post in this thread for the reason why.



Hmm. So Marriott purposefully skimmed points to make the program less attractive to 75%-80% of current owners?! :hysterical: :rofl: :hysterical: 
Somebody in that operation deserves a pink slip.


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## sun&fun (Jun 30, 2010)

*Who's the audience*

I would place myself in category #4 and as such, I must not be representative of that group since I don't see what's in the new points system for me. I don't pay II dues and I don't trade.  I am more concerned about what's in the new points system that could work against me. I just want to be able to book my weeks each year and use them at my home resort.  I will wait this out for several more months before making any commitment to stand pat or jump in.


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

sun&fun said:


> I would place myself in category #4 and as such, I must not be representative of that group since I don't see what's in the new points system for me. I don't pay II dues and I don't trade.  I am more concerned about what's in the new points system that could work against me. I just want to be able to book my weeks each year and use them at my home resort.  I will wait this out for several more months before making any commitment to stand pat or jump in.



I have no intention of joining either. I bought to stay at our home resort.   But I get why you need more points than you get.  Show me a points program that DOESN'T work that way, and I will show you a program that is going to go bankrupt.  There's always a "cost of doing business" and that cost is always passed to the consumer.


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## london (Jun 30, 2010)

*How Many Marriott Owners*

How many Marriott Owners are there?

I suspect 100,000 perhaps?

I wonder if 50% will convert to the points system?


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

brigechols said:


> Hmm. So Marriott purposefully skimmed points to *make the program less attractive to 75%-80% of current owners*?! :hysterical: :rofl: :hysterical:
> Somebody in that operation deserves a pink slip.



That's not at all what Dave said.  And that's certainly not what I interpreted it to mean.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 30, 2010)

I don't know if they are using breakage as an excuse for the skim, but I have seen it mentioned here. The problem with that argument is that breakage is a result of poor inventory management and unreserved weeks. If the nightly reservation process causes a lot of breakage it is because Marriott isn't managing the inventory properly. Inventory in this type of system needs constant monitoring. Only permitting a certain number of units to be booked as nightly or partial week stays, other need to be booked as whole week stays.

If it was a free for all like it seems it will be at 10 months out, the resorts reservations will look like swiss cheese. With proper management techniques to manage inventory and set limits and controls, it would reduce breakage significantly. You shouldn't design a product that causes more breakage.


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

london said:


> How many Marriott Owners are there?
> 
> I suspect 100,000 perhaps?


  There has to be atleast 3-4 times that number.  Their portfolio couldn't support itself with only 100,000 members.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 30, 2010)

Dave M said:


> Since the difference in points received versus points required exists only for Enrolled owners (not for pure points purchasers), I believe they did it to protect the 75%-80% of weeks owners who are not likely to enroll in the points program. See my first post in this thread for the reason why.



You've got to be kidding me.  You view point skimming as a brilliant move to protect current owners?  They could have more effectively protected owners in many other ways that are much easier to implement.  Some ideas include, but are not limited to:

1) articulate a rule that says you can't exchange into your own resort season via points.  You can only trade out.  That would be way easier to implement and enforce.  More importantly, it removes the current appearances of impropriety and owners aren't shorted points when they want to trade into other resorts.

2) not allowing weeks owner to convert into the program at all 

3) creating a trade in program to completely convert floating week owners into points.    

Instead, they create a program that shorts weeks owners points on EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION.   So, the transaction fees are actually artificially too low.  You are actually paying more to convert than the stated fees since owners are being shorted.

The more likely answer is that Marriott tried to pull a fast one on owners.  They didn't think owners would notice the points differential and they got caught shorting them.  Now they have explaining to do.

Positioning points skimming as a way to protect weeks owners would be like saying that we are going to tax your more so you have less money to spend on food, therefore, we are protecting you from obesity and therefore are acting brilliantly toward public health and welfare.


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## brigechols (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> I have no intention of joining either. I bought to stay at our home resort.   But I get why you need more points than you get.  Show me a points program that DOESN'T work that way, and I will show you a program that is going to go bankrupt.  There's always a "cost of doing business" and that cost is always passed to the consumer.



I'm glad you get it. Now, can you help me get it?  I'm one of those owners without enough points to secure a flexible 7 period at my home resort.


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## jerseygirl (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> ....   But I get why you need more points than you get.  Show me a points program that DOESN'T work that way, and I will show you a program that is going to go bankrupt.  There's always a "cost of doing business" and that cost is always passed to the consumer.



Rut ro ... someone better tell DVC, Hyatt, Hilton and Starwood that they're about to go bankrupt.


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## hipslo (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> That's not at all what Dave said.  And that's certainly not what I interpreted it to mean.



It is, actually, at least as I read it.


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

jerseygirl said:


> Rut ro ... someone better tell DVC, Hyatt, Hilton and Starwood that they're about to go bankrupt.



Well, it made sense to me why there is a disparity.  but ok,  I will concede that have no idea what I am talking about.   

I still don't get why everyone is up in arms.   No one is making us join the program.  If you want to join, if it works for you, then join, if it doesn't, then don't.  Seems to me that the only reason to join is if you want to go somewhere OTHER than your home resort, so what diff does it make what the disparity is for your OWN resort during the timeperiod you already own?  Seems to me you would be HAPPY that people will have to spend more points to stay at your place than it is costing you to stay there.   Works for me. Sounds like Marriott is trying to keep the integrity of your resort.    Perhaps because I don't use my week to trade I am able to see the simplicity of it all.


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## brigechols (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> Well, it made sense to me why there is a disparity.  but ok,  I will concede that have no idea what I am talking about.
> 
> I still don't get why everyone is up in arms.   No one is making us join the program.  If you want to join, if it works for you, then join, if it doesn't, then don't.  Seems to me that the only reason to join is if you want to go somewhere OTHER than your home resort, so what diff does it make what the disparity is for your OWN resort during the timeperiod you already own?  Seems to me you would be HAPPY that people will have to spend more points to stay at your place than it is costing you to stay there.   Works for me. Sounds like Marriott is trying to keep the integrity of your resort.    Perhaps because I don't use my week to trade I am able to see the simplicity of it all.



Here is why I am up in arms: Marriott introduces a flexible points program. With enough points, an owner can checkin on any day of the week. This appeals to me because I can then take advantage of lower fares to Hawaii traveling on a Monday or Tuesday. Yes, I can continue vacationing in my current manner but the points program could be structured to entice me to join but instead, big brother Marriott is protecting my interests by assessing a point value less than required to reserve a flexible week.


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

brigechols said:


> Here is why I am up in arms: Marriott introduces a flexible points program. With enough points, an owner can checkin on any day of the week. This appeals to me because I can then take advantage of lower fares to Hawaii traveling on a Monday or Tuesday. Yes, I can continue vacationing in my current manner but the points program could be structured to entice me to join but instead, big brother Marriott is protecting my interests by assessing a point value less than required to reserve a flexible week.



So are you saying then that you want Marriott to change their business model to better suit your needs AND to absorb all costs associated with said change?  I assume you were happy with how things were BEFORE, or you would not have bought.  You can STAY the same way  you were before, or you can change to something that suits your needs better.  But why should we assume that "change" should come at no cost to us?  

To me this just seems like a whole lot of sour grapes from a whole lot of people.  I thought timesharing was supposed to be FUN.


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## LAX Mom (Jun 30, 2010)

Many people have posted about the "skimming" of points by Marriott and made the claim that it doesn't really hurt you because if you want to stay at your home resort you can still do that. You don't need to have enough points for your own resort, you can just reserve it with Marriott.

However, this "skimming" of points denies owners who enroll in the points system a "like to like" exchange. They give you less than it costs to book your week. So you probably won't have enough to book an comparable week. 

If you own at Ko'Olina you don't have enough to book Maui- Lahaina & Napili towers. If you own at Summit Watch you don't have enough points to book the same season at Mountainside. 

So Marriott gives you 3,000 points, but a comparable exchange will cost you 3,500. It seems like they did this intentionally to increase the sales of points. If you want to play the points game with Marriott and exchange into another Marriott you'll have to spend some $$ for more points!


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## hotcoffee (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> Seems to me you would be HAPPY that people will have to spend more points to stay at your place than it is costing you to stay there.   Works for me. Sounds like Marriott is trying to keep the integrity of your resort.    Perhaps because I don't use my week to trade I am able to see the simplicity of it all.



This is the reason for the disparity according to the rep I am dealing with.


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> This is the reason for the disparity according to the rep I am dealing with.



Agreed.  And to expand on that, a couple years ago we stayed at a timeshare unit at Old Key West in Disney.  I doubt you'd find a person on the Disney board who'd have a bad thing to say about OKW.  We certainly did not find one person who was unhappy while we were there.  However OUR unit had a gaping hole in the wall, was filthy.  I mean FILTHY, not "I'm a neat freak and there was a smidge of dust on the table" but "my little guy crawls on the floor and his hands, feet legs,and clothes are BLACK filthy", the furniture was torn, stained, you name it, the floors, the walls, the entire place needed a deep, deep cleaning.  There was mold in the shower, a collection of dead bugs in the shower window seal, I could go on and on.   I could not figure out for the life of me why everyone I have encountered since just raves about OKW, and yet the unit we were in was a pit.

Well, my assumption is, this was a unit (or perhaps an entire building) reserved for us hapless renters.  We rented thru Disney, not thru Redweek, nor were we there as an owner.   I am not saying that Marriott would do this, but I am saying that if this points program isn't handled properly, we could be looking at a whole lot of unwanted wear and tear.   I WANT people to have to spend more than the regular owners (read, ME) , especially if they are going to use it as a M-Th "cheap" stop like we did at OKW.  The more transient you allow a place to be, the less it will be respected as something that is "owned".


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## pianodinosaur (Jun 30, 2010)

jerseygirl said:


> Rut ro ... someone better tell DVC, Hyatt, Hilton and Starwood that they're about to go bankrupt.



Jerseygirl:

Very well stated.  

I have been a member of HGVC since 2001. There has never been any point skimming.  I have never had a problem trading within the HGVC system and very few difficulties with RCI.  We have only stayed at our home resort once in the past nine years.  The HGVC system is flexible and very simple to use and understand.  Furthermore, points are treated exactly the same if purchased directly from HGVC or resale with the exception of Elite Status.

I recently purchased Marriott's Mountain Valley Lodge on ebay and currently have the deed.  However, Marriott does not yet have me in the system.  A review of the points program reveals that my 1 week summer season has virtually no trading power within the new points system.  There are several other Marriott resorts that have been treated similarly. Fortunately, we love Colorado in the summer and look forward to trading via II. 

The new system seems designed to keep people who own at MMVL, Harbour Point and Sunset Pointe out of places like Ocean Watch or Frenchman's Cove. There must be several Marriott TS resorts that are completely sold out by the developer and that can only be purchased resale at this time.  This new system also seems designed to restrict the trading power of someone who purchases resale. However, I doubt II will discriminate between the week of someone who purchased direct from Marriott vs the resale owner.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> Agreed.  And to expand on that, a couple years ago we stayed at a timeshare unit at Old Key West in Disney.  I doubt you'd find a person on the Disney board who'd have a bad thing to say about OKW.  We certainly did not find one person who was unhappy while we were there.  However OUR unit had a gaping hole in the wall, was filthy.  I mean FILTHY, not "I'm a neat freak and there was a smidge of dust on the table" but "my little guy crawls on the floor and his hands, feet legs,and clothes are BLACK filthy", the furniture was torn, stained, you name it, the floors, the walls, the entire place needed a deep, deep cleaning.  There was mold in the shower, a collection of dead bugs in the shower window seal, I could go on and on.   I could not figure out for the life of me why everyone I have encountered since just raves about OKW, and yet the unit we were in was a pit.
> 
> Well, my assumption is, this was a unit (or perhaps an entire building) reserved for us hapless renters.  We rented thru Disney, not thru Redweek, nor were we there as an owner.   I am not saying that Marriott would do this, but I am saying that if this points program isn't handled properly, we could be looking at a whole lot of unwanted wear and tear.   I WANT people to have to spend more than the regular owners (read, ME) , especially if they are going to use it as a M-Th "cheap" stop like we did at OKW.  The more transient you allow a place to be, the less it will be respected as something that is "owned".



I think the biggest contributor to wear and tear to units is if the guests have children.  I think renters without children take better care of units than owners with kids.  As a result, I don't agree with your generalizations about owners vs. renters.

More importantly, the single most important factor in terms of why DVC points have done the best job at keeping their value is due to the rental market.  As long as Disney keeps the market rate for DVC accommodations very high, then resale points will also remain high.  If Disney took action to eliminate the rental market, DVC owner's resale values would plummet.


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

pianodinosaur said:


> Jerseygirl:
> 
> This new system also seems designed to restrict the trading power of someone who purchases resale. However, I doubt II will discriminate between the week of someone who purchased direct from Marriott vs the resale owner.



My resale week is worth 4200 points.  Where does that fall in the points range with other timeshares?  I haven't been on the webpage since the 20th, so I don't know where that info is found.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> My resale week is worth 4200 points.  Where does that fall in the points range with other timeshares?  I haven't been on the webpage since the 20th, so I don't know where that info is found.



What matters most is the $MF/point you will have to pay.  If your unit is < $.25/point, I would do it instantly independent of skim and other issues raised on these boards.  If you are at < $.25/point, you will get into other resorts for very cheap.


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> I think the biggest contributor to wear and tear to units is if the guests have children.  *I think renters without children take better care of units than owners with kids. * As a result, I don't agree with your generalizations about owners vs. renters.



REALLY????  Just because someone (say, ME) has kids, we don't take good care of things????   So 4 college boys who are staying at daddy's timeshare for a week will treat the place better than us, because they "don't have kids???"As a result, I don't agree with YOUR GENERALIZATIONS about kids vs non kids.  I welcome you to stay with our family sometime and see how well we treat things.  I take MUCH exception with that remark.


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## siberiavol (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> As someone who is essentially an outsider looking in, I don't get this "beef" with skimming.  Quite frankly, were I in a different place in my life, the prospect of being able to trade my one week at Marriott Grande Ocean in Jun-Aug for 5 weeks at the same place in Dec-Feb may one day be VERY appealing to me!  If I was of retirement age I would in fact LOVE to spend 5 weeks at HHI rather than in MW OH.   I don't really care how the points measure out.  I did the comparison, and that is how it works out.  Really, this is the same as complaining that your rewards points buys you less  in busy peak times than it does on off season, off peak times.



I plan on using a platinum exactly in the way  you describe at least part of the time. there might be others.


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## RedDogSD (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> REALLY????  Just because someone (say, ME) has kids, we don't take good care of things????   As a result, I don't agree with YOUR GENERALIZATIONS about kids vs non kids.  I welcome you to stay with our family sometime and see how well we treat things.  I take MUCH exception with that remark.



I don't take exception with his remarks at all.  I drive myself crazy trying to keep my little guys (6 and 3) from destroying every part of my house and every other dwelling that I let them into.  I feel like such a hard ass at times because I will not let them bring their toys out of their room because they bang then into the walls constantly.  I try to be protective of TS units that we go into, but I just need to relax and cannot jump on them every 10 seconds.   I am sure that others, even renters with no kids, will take better care than us.   We really do try, but young boys are insane and I am not going to play drill sergeant every moment of my vacation.


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## GregT (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> REALLY????  Just because someone (say, ME) has kids, we don't take good care of things????   So 4 college boys who are staying at daddy's timeshare for a week will treat the place better than us, because they "don't have kids???"As a result, I don't agree with YOUR GENERALIZATIONS about kids vs non kids.  I welcome you to stay with our family sometime and see how well we treat things.  I take MUCH exception with that remark.



Laura, I'm pretty confident BocaBum is talking about my kids.   

Best,

Greg


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

GregT said:


> Laura, I'm pretty confident BocaBum is talking about my kids.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Greg, thanks for lightening the mood. I needed that. 

Boca, explain this, or atleast where I can find it in relation to my timeshare.  

<<<What matters most is the $MF/point you will have to pay. If your unit is < $.25/point, I would do it instantly independent of skim and other issues raised on these boards. If you are at < $.25/point, you will get into other resorts for very cheap.>>>


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## DanCali (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> Greg, thanks for lightening the mood. I needed that.
> 
> Boca, explain this, or atleast where I can find it in relation to my timeshare.
> 
> <<<What matters most is the $MF/point you will have to pay. If your unit is < $.25/point, I would do it instantly independent of skim and other issues raised on these boards. If you are at < $.25/point, you will get into other resorts for very cheap.>>>



You said you get 4200 points?

He says if your MFs are $1050 or less then go for it...


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## JimIg23 (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> Greg, thanks for lightening the mood. I needed that.
> 
> Boca, explain this, or atleast where I can find it in relation to my timeshare.
> 
> <<<What matters most is the $MF/point you will have to pay. If your unit is < $.25/point, I would do it instantly independent of skim and other issues raised on these boards. If you are at < $.25/point, you will get into other resorts for very cheap.>>>



My take:  For me, I would have 3000 points (what my TSs are worth) and pay a bit under 1k for MF and taxes (current cost of my TSs MFs).  That works out to about .33 cents per point.  In the new system, Marriott charges 40 cents per point, which is $1,200 in MFs for these 3000 points.  Using the new system, I am paying $200 less in MFs than other point owners.


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

DanCali said:


> You said you get 4200 points?
> 
> He says if your MFs are $1050 or less then go for it...



According to the Marriott website my MGO platinum week gets me 4200 points.  Our maintenance fees are just over $1000, but don't quote me on the exact (someone here will know, I do not).  But the thing is, at this point all I want to do is stay THERE.  This is our first owner week ever coming up next month (previous weeks were rentals--and yes, we did leave the place in perfect shape  ). 

 I see no point in points.   Again, if my kids were 13 and 19, instead of 3 and 9, then I see can see on the horizon me and the Mr. spending a month and some change in HHI.  It just makes no sense for us right now.


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## pianodinosaur (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> My resale week is worth 4200 points.  Where does that fall in the points range with other timeshares?  I haven't been on the webpage since the 20th, so I don't know where that info is found.



You can download Marriott Vacation Club Collection 2011-2012 Vacation Club Points Charts from Marriott in PDF format.  It does not appear that resale owners will be able to participate in the points program at this time.  That is OK in my situation because I have a very high MF/point ratio.  I think BocaBum99 has it right.


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## jerseygirl (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> To me this just seems like a whole lot of sour grapes from a whole lot of people.  I thought timesharing was supposed to be FUN.



Laura --I'm sorry for teasing you with my Hilton/Hyatt remark.  Thanks for taking it in the spirit it was intended!  

I agree that there is some unfounded panic occuring, but I don't think it's fair to say everything is "sour grapes."  A couple of true concerns, from my perspective:

-- Some people bank their weeks in II and then trade back into their home resorts the following year.  This works very well where there are long flights (I just spent 24 hours on planes getting to/from Hawaii -- no way would I want to do that every year!).  Or, maybe it takes a family two years to save enough FF miles for the trip ... or, people want to invite friends/family and need two units, etc.  There are many good, legitimate reasons for giving up this year's usage to get two units next year.  One could argue that these owners should have bought two EOY weeks ... but, sometimes circumstances change, or people don't realize what's going to work best until they're already in a program.  In today's world, II trades into a home resort (e.g., a Maui week for a Maui week) are at the very top of the priority queue.  It's practically a 100% guarantee that one can employ this strategy for a $109 payment to Marriott II.  However, with Marriott's new program, the owner is often not allotted enough points to trade back into their own resort ... not unless they're willing to trade down in size, season, or view.  I think this "miss" is a legitimate gripe.  Marriott claims you can bank and borrow -- but you can't get two units in your own resort!  That's just wrong.  

-- You love to visit your own resort and that's wonderful.  But, Marriott sold hundreds of thousands of weeks to people who ENJOY trading (some get bored going to the same place year after year).  Many of these people feel threatened because their point values are not high enough to trade into the same resorts they've been routinely trading into for years.  Sure -- it's easy to say, "Well, you can still use II the way you always have."  But, Marriott has included PROMINENT language in their documentation that makes it clear that they have access to weeks deposits in II to fulfill points trades.  Until Marriott is willing to spell out, in writing, exactly how that's going to work, of course the "trader/owners" are nervous.  What they thought they were buying (often for many thousands of dollars) may now be drastically changing.  There are those who will state that the trading was never guaranteed.  But, one doesn't expect a company with Marriott's reputation to pull the rug out from under them in the middle of the game (Westgate maybe, but not Marriott).

I'm sure there a couple more, but I think these two are two of the more egregious mistakes Marriott made with this new program.




pianodinosaur said:


> Jerseygirl:
> 
> Very well stated.
> 
> I have been a member of HGVC since 2001....  .



Thank you pianodinosaur!  I was just kidding around with Laura!

I've been an HGVC owner since about 2005 -- I absolutely LOVE everything about it!!  Go Hilton!!


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> REALLY????  Just because someone (say, ME) has kids, we don't take good care of things????   So 4 college boys who are staying at daddy's timeshare for a week will treat the place better than us, because they "don't have kids???"As a result, I don't agree with YOUR GENERALIZATIONS about kids vs non kids.  I welcome you to stay with our family sometime and see how well we treat things.  I take MUCH exception with that remark.



If you look at any set of statistics across a statistically significant population, you will see that I am correct.  You are basing your opinion based on one data point and generalizing it to the entire rest of the population.  I am basing mine on cross sections of the market as I have observed it.  Believe what you want, but you aren't correct.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 30, 2010)

DanCali said:


> You said you get 4200 points?
> 
> He says if your MFs are $1050 or less then go for it...



Exactly.  If Marriott is skimming 7% when your $MF/point is $.25, your cost is actually around $.27/point.  That is still significantly less than straight points owners are paying.

If you want to make an immediate profit, just offer your points to a points only owner for $.33/point.  You make a margin of 32% and the points owner gets a discount of 17.5%.  And, the transfer process is simple. Never had an easier rental.


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## jerseyfinn (Jun 30, 2010)

Another poster queries about how many MVC owers there are. I think the number is closer to 250,000 plus individual MVC owners ( DaveM should have the real figure ).

I don't know why there is so much angst or prevarication here about this new points program. I'm gonna assume that Marriott made an earnest attempt at it. But to be honest, this program does very little for most legacy Marriott owners. In short, Marriott blew it when they over-reach with the point skim and underachieve in terms of owner value and parity.  There exists no compelling reason for any legacy MVC owner to fret about whether they should join this program. The answer is plain and simple *no!*.

Folks here on TUG are savvy enough to know when something works and when it doesn't. There's no need to explain away the deficiencies or play word games about the "skim" and other short comings in this program. Marriott has simply missed the boat -- it's a corperate lesson in "if at first you don't succeed, then try again". This, I do not hold against Marriott.

None of us have to do anything. This new points thing does not work in our interest and we need only say "no thank you" to Marriott. It does not add up on the point spread side, the MR points side or any other aspect. What this program is really about is Marriott's attempt to put forth a product for the "disinterested" timeshare audiance. That is, those folks who want to travel and are curious about destination travel, but who do not feel passionately about their resort at which they own ( violates timeshare rule 101, but to each his own  . ). All these folks want is a leg up in the MVC game at what ever resort they elect to purchase at. They're not interested in the week long stay model and they could care less about where they own. They simply want in on the game or process by which they can enjoy destination travel. That's what this new program is all about. That it does not function for legacy folks is not really a surprise when you look closely at the program ( or beneficial Trust as Marriott offcially refers to it  -- and is also the first hint that something stinks  ).

The best thing that a legacy owner can do is give Marriott clear and concise feed back which says no thanks.

Emphatically,

Barry


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> If you look at any set of statistics across a statistically significant population, you will see that I am correct.  You are basing your opinion based on one data point and generalizing it to the entire rest of the population.  I am basing mine on cross sections of the market as I have observed it.  Believe what you want, but you aren't correct.



ok, if you need to continue to drive your point home, go ahead.  I don't need to be right on this one as much as you seem to need to be.


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## SMB1 (Jun 30, 2010)

jerseygirl said:


> Rut ro ... someone better tell DVC, Hyatt, Hilton and Starwood that they're about to go bankrupt.



Were these companies originally introduced as weeks or points.  I'm not sure, but I think I recall at least DVC has always been a points system.  There would be no place to skim.  Just like the future points owners for Marriott.  They will buy the # of points they need to travel where they want to go.  If Marriott were always points, none of us would feel/be cheated either.


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## JimC (Jun 30, 2010)

Sorry I don't buy it -- literally and figuratively.  Marriott is taking much more then owners are getting, in my opinion.


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## jerseygirl (Jun 30, 2010)

SMB1 said:


> Were these companies originally introduced as weeks or points.  I'm not sure, but I think I recall at least DVC has always been a points system.  There would be no place to skim.  Just like the future points owners for Marriott.  They will buy the # of points they need to travel where they want to go.  If Marriott were always points, none of us would feel/be cheated either.



I think you're correct about Disney (I was a shareholder when their program first rolled out.... received tons of promotional material .. attended a presentation when points were $50 but didn't bite... oops  ).  I own Hilton and Hyatt, but did not get in on the ground floor, so I don't know the full history.  If I had to guess, they both started with points.  Starwood, on the other hand, had a bunch of "weeks" owners when they created their points system in 2000.  They did not institute a skim (as I posted on another thread, they probably just didn't think of it ).  But, they have very reasonable fees ($109 for first week, $33 for second, $0 for third, fourth, etc.).  No fees for club reservations, locking off, etc.  There is a fee, I think, to convert to hotel points (I've never done it so don't remember the amount) ... and you can be charged housekeeping fees if you break up your points into more stays than owned weeks.  

I agree with you as it relates to new owners -- the skim only applies to current weeks owners.  But, I still find it very puzzling.  It seems to me that Marriott needs the current owners to make this thing work ... yet they've alienated many because of the skim.  As I posted once before, I think Marriott was trying very hard to be different (especially since they've been noticably late to the party).  The "all-in-one" fee is unique, that's for sure.  But, was it a smart move (i.e., try to hde your fees in other ways)?  Only time will tell.


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## JimC (Jun 30, 2010)

Yes, DVC was a points program from inception.  However, they are offering a few fixed weeks at their new resort in Ko Olina


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

*To put it all in perspective*

The other day DD and I were driving thru town with the windows down.  We smelled something in the air, something peculiar.  We could not place the smell, it was partly familiar, partly not.  Neither of us could decide whether the smell was good, or offensive.   We could have just rolled up our windows, but instead we spent the better part of 5-10 minutes "smelling the smell", and debating both what it was, and whether or not we liked the smell.

That, in a nutshell, is how I have been feeling about the Marriott board these days since the points system roll out!  I keep coming back to "smell the smell" though!


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## jerseygirl (Jun 30, 2010)

That's a perfect analogy Laura!  Last night and this morning, I was staying right on the river at the Hyatt in Savannah.  I was lucky enough to be ubgraded to a wonderful top floor, balcony room.  The view was gorgeous!  Every time I stepped outside (the balcony was more like a 12X12 patio ... I could hear the jazz and blues guys playing in the park below).  It was so peaceful.  But, there was this smell ... river, fish, garbage (worse from the heat), etc.  I absolutely LOVE Savannah.  So, I kept stepping outside ... trying to learn to love the smell!  

Those of us who love timesharing, and especially the timeshares affiliated with top-of-the-line Hotel Developers ... we can't stay away.  I think we're all just hoping the smell will soon become part of the experience!!


So -- am I finally understanding analogy? (Give me an accounting, ECON, or finance class anyday of the week -- I like concrete right answers!).   Or, do I just need a good night's sleep?


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## dougp26364 (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> As someone who is essentially an outsider looking in, I don't get this "beef" with skimming.  Quite frankly, were I in a different place in my life, the prospect of being able to trade my one week at Marriott Grande Ocean in Jun-Aug for 5 weeks at the same place in Dec-Feb may one day be VERY appealing to me!  If I was of retirement age I would in fact LOVE to spend 5 weeks at HHI rather than in MW OH.   I don't really care how the points measure out.  I did the comparison, and that is how it works out.  Really, this is the same as complaining that your rewards points buys you less  in busy peak times than it does on off season, off peak times.



So long as you don't care than Marriott is giving you 7% less than what they ask when you make a reservation, then it doesn't matter. I guess if you dont' see that you would need to buy perhaps another 1,000 to 1,500 points to accomplish the same exchanges in points as you would with direct weeks exchanges that's OK. I'm just not in the mood to give them $9,200 to $13,800 to make the same exchanges I can leaving things as they are. 

Fortunately, this is a voluntary fleecing. If you're up for it, who am I to say it's wrong for you.


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> So long as you don't care than Marriott is giving you 7% less than what they ask when you make a reservation, then it doesn't matter. I guess if you dont' see that you would need to buy perhaps another 1,000 to 1,500 points to accomplish the same exchanges in points as you would with direct weeks exchanges that's OK. I'm just not in the mood to give them $9,200 to $13,800 to make the same exchanges I can leaving things as they are.
> 
> Fortunately, this is a voluntary fleecing. If you're up for it, who am I to say it's wrong for you.



oh, I've already said I'm not joining.  It doesn't make sense for us at this juncture.  15-20 years from now I may be looking at things differently, but for now we're good where we are.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> I have no intention of joining either. I bought to stay at our home resort.   But I get why you need more points than you get.  Show me a points program that DOESN'T work that way, and I will show you a program that is going to go bankrupt.  There's always a "cost of doing business" and that cost is always passed to the consumer.



I can show you two. DRI and HGVC. When we bought HGVC, we bought the season/style unit we wanted to stay in and it's remained constant.

When we joined DRI's program, it was 10 years after our original purchase. We recieve 26,500 points for our two 2 bedroom units and guess what, if we want to stay in those two 2 bedroom units, it costs us 26,500 points. If someone else in the club wants to reserve those two 2 bedroom units guess what they pay in points? If you guessed 26,500 points you'd be correct. 

So I've shown you two. Now can you name another points based program that gives owners fewer points than they require to reserve the same unit?


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## dougp26364 (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> So are you saying then that you want Marriott to change their business model to better suit your needs AND to absorb all costs associated with said change?  I assume you were happy with how things were BEFORE, or you would not have bought.  You can STAY the same way  you were before, or you can change to something that suits your needs better.  But why should we assume that "change" should come at no cost to us?
> 
> To me this just seems like a whole lot of sour grapes from a whole lot of people.  I thought timesharing was supposed to be FUN.




How about being upfront about the cost rather than attempting to reach into my back pocket, thinking I won't notice. All other points based timeshare programs seem to be able to be upfront and do just fine. Marriott doesn't think honesty works? Sorry, I don't get that.


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## laurac260 (Jun 30, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I. Now can you name another points based program that gives owners fewer points than they require to reserve the same unit?


  Why would you need to reserve on points something you already own????  This argument has been bantered around many times, but it holds no water.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 30, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> Why would you need to reserve on points something you already own????  This argument has been bantered around many times, but it holds no water.



But to answer Doug's question, it is a No. I am not aware of any other system that skims points. Marriott is the first.


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## tidefan (Jun 30, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Even Marriott admits it knows what it was doing when it gave fewer points than it costs to book something.  They did it to make fees look artificially low.
> 
> They could have easily accommodated the need by increasing the maintenance fees by 7% instead of shorting owners on the exchange fee.  They hoped that owners wouldn't notice.  That was the clear bet.



So, in effect, this setup has current owners in part subsidizing the lower maintenance fees for new purchasers...


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## GregT (Jul 1, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> How about being upfront about the cost rather than attempting to reach into my back pocket, thinking I won't notice. All other points based timeshare programs seem to be able to be upfront and do just fine. Marriott doesn't think honesty works? Sorry, I don't get that.



I agree -- I would have much preferred to know the true cost of the joining versus the explicit cash of the system and the implicit cost from skimming.   It seems very underhanded.




tidefan said:


> So, in effect, this setup has current owners in part subsidizing the lower maintenance fees for new purchasers...



It's a very complicated arrangement, and none of us fully understand it.  However, I don't view the skimming as subsidizing lower maintenance fees for new purchasers.  Frankly, I think the new purchasers are paying an inflated MF, which helps Marriott since they're on the hook for those MF's on unsold deeds.

I do think that skimming provides a major selling opportunity for Marriott to take many existing owners that want to join, but are just short of what they need -- so they need to buy 1,000 points at $9.20 so they can really use the system.

That may a brilliant part of the system (from Marriott's perspective) -- you put the new system just tantalizingly out of reach to most of the existing weeks owners -- because you really don't want those weeks clogging up the system anyway.

If someone really wants the system, well, they can buy another 1,000 points and then their week is welcome to join.  

The skim is really interesting -- and I still would have much preferred a straight cash arrangement.

Best to all,

Greg


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## Dave M (Jul 1, 2010)

tidefan said:


> So, in effect, this setup has current owners in part subsidizing the lower maintenance fees for new purchasers...


No, the points received from enrolling and the points required to reserve a week are unrelated to the determination and collection of MFs.

MFs for weeks at a resort are determined by the resort. Those MFs apply equally to the weeks we all own and to the weeks in the trust that are represented by points that people will own. 

Marriott will charge $.40 per point as MFs. Those fees that Marriott collects will go to the resorts. Additionally, that $.40 MF has been set higher than what is needed for what Marriott will need to send to the resorts for points. It's also to reimburse individual resorts for any additional costs (such as extra housekeeping related to short stays using points) that result from the new program.

Most of this is discussed in the first post in this thread.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 1, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> Why would you need to reserve on points something you already own????  This argument has been bantered around many times, but it holds no water.



It's obvious to me that you don't own in a points based program and you haven't done any research into points based programs.

If Marriott had developed their points based system properly, you wouldn't need to continue to trade in the weeks based system. You'd do EVERYTHING through points. But Marriott didn't want to do that. They decided to cheat their legacy owners by shorting them on the points they gave in relationship to the points they charge. For Marriott's system ONLY you are correct. For all other systems you're wrong. All other systems give the same amount of points as it takes to reserve that unit. 

With my points based units there is no waste. I can trade down and have points left over. I can trade even up if I want. I can trade up by saving or borrowing points. I can own a high season high demand week and use those points to reserve in Orlando and still have points left over for another vacation. 

Marriott has essentially cheated every current weeks based owner over with how they set up their points. They have tried to balance it out by saying you can just keep right on trading week for week instead of using points. In that case, what's the point? Why should ANY legacy owner join this program? Their answer is to have more options and flexability with points. But Marriott shorts you on the points they give you vs what they charge to reserve the same unit. NO OTHER POINTS BASED SYSTEM OUT THERE DOES THIS TO THEIR OWNERS!


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## dougp26364 (Jul 1, 2010)

tidefan said:


> So, in effect, this setup has current owners in part subsidizing the lower maintenance fees for new purchasers...



MF's for new purchasers will be higher in just about every case so, I don't see any subsidizing going on. For instance, the 5,900 points required for our Ocean Pointe week that we typically resevere would be $2,360. Last years MF was around $1,400. Points owners will pay a premium in MF's to be able to do the same thing legacy owners manage with their deeded weeks. 

I'm not sure what Marriott is thinking with this program. In many cases it's not good for new buyers or current owners. I know I'm not overly thrilled about buying into their land trust ownership with the upfront cost and then the backside MF's plus membership fee's. I'm really having a hard time figuring out who this program is good for other than Marriott.


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## saturn28 (Jul 1, 2010)

I Deleted the post


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## laurac260 (Jul 1, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> It's obvious to me that you don't own in a points based program and you haven't done any research into points based programs.



Life gives PLENTY of opportunities of "disparities" with "points based programs".  Yet we swallow them all.  When it costs me 20,000 points per night to stay at a hotel that I can pay $109 plus tax for; when you pay $20 at a carnival to win your kid a $3 stuffed animal, when you pay $20,000 for a brand new car and it loses 20% of it's value when you drive it off the lot, the list is endless.  But yep, you are right.  The cat's out of the bag.  I haven't done any research on points based programs.  I don't need to do any research beyond this:

#1) if you like the new program, join.
#2) if you don't like the new program or don't think it will work for you, don't join.


I'm starting to feel like       because the rest is :deadhorse:  and I'm getting ready to  .

If anyone wants to talk about their upcoming vacation at Grande Ocean or the like, I'll be in the lounge.


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## jerseygirl (Jul 1, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> Why would you need to reserve on points something you already own????  This argument has been bantered around many times, but it holds no water.



Laura  -- I already gave you a couple of good reasons why someone might want to book something they already own in this post:



jerseygirl said:


> ... -- Some people bank their weeks in II and then trade back into their home resorts the following year.  This works very well where there are long flights (I just spent 24 hours on planes getting to/from Hawaii -- no way would I want to do that every year!).  Or, maybe it takes a family two years to save enough FF miles for the trip ... or, people want to invite friends/family and need two units, etc.  There are many good, legitimate reasons for giving up this year's usage to get two units next year.  One could argue that these owners should have bought two EOY weeks ... but, sometimes circumstances change, or people don't realize what's going to work best until they're already in a program.  In today's world, II trades into a home resort (e.g., a Maui week for a Maui week) are at the very top of the priority queue.  It's practically a 100% guarantee that one can employ this strategy for a $109 payment to Marriott II.  However, with Marriott's new program, the owner is often not allotted enough points to trade back into their own resort ... not unless they're willing to trade down in size, season, or view.  I think this "miss" is a legitimate gripe.  Marriott claims you can bank and borrow -- but you can't get two units in your own resort!  That's just wrong.



I hope you never run into a situation where you've diligently booked your week a year in advance -- you score a perfect July week.  But, then your superstar softball player makes the All-Star team and you find out that there's a HUGE tournament during that perfect July week (or your best friend's daughter is getting married that week -- pick any number of good reasons why you might need to cancel that perfect July reservation).  In the past, provided you know the scedule at least 60 days in advance, you could have just deposited your perfect reservation and been practically 100% guaranteed that you could go for two weeks next year instead.  With the new points program, you can't do that -- you can bank your points from the cancelled reservation, but you don't get enough points to trade into your own resort.  You can still deposit that perfect reservation into II, but if Marriott is using prime weeks deposited to II to fulfill points requests, you might not get the trade the old-fashioned way either.

I think you need to try to look at others' real life experiences, and the terms and conditions of the points program, before you assume things will still be the same for weeks owners.


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## m61376 (Jul 1, 2010)

Personally, in my many conversations about this program, one of the most disturbing is Marriott's stance that current owners haven't lost anything- whether or not they join, but just have additional options if they join. I have been told repeatedly "just use your week the way you always have...that will always work best for you."

HOWEVER- what about:
-increased competition for reservations for prime weeks? Don't forget- Plat. seasons were the first to get sold out at every resort. Every season has some better weeks than others, and there has yet to be a definitive answer if the point/week ratio will be reflected in the percentage that each season can be reserved or each week/reservation option. That is a huge difference, imho- because you can potential have hundreds or thousands of point holders competing for those prime weeks. Week owners will still be able to reserve a week in their season- but the big issue is which week?

-as pointed out above, forget about easily retrading back into your home resort next year. Also- since Marriott clearly can take week deposits from II to fulfill point requests, what will the availability in II be for week exchanges? Marriott maintains they have to make a comparable deposit- but doesn;t define comparable. Is it a single week with comparable point value? Or is comparable multiple weeks that add up to the same point value? I have been told that Marriott wouldn't do that- but I have less confidence in the company today than I did two weeks ago.

-they are allowing renting of point reservations. Now, many will look at that as a big plus. But for certain resort owners it won't be. To be selfish- Aruba has historically had some of the highest rentals. Until the economy tanked the rentals there were crazy- even Marriott used to give 4K for a mid-Dec. week. Marriott.com charges double or nearly double than properties that were assigned higher point values. So an owner who'd rather not use their week that year would be better off using their high point allocations and renting in a locale that demanded higher rental rates. On one hand, it is a good opportunity to make some money. However, not so good for the Aruba owner and any relatively undervalued resorts in the new program. For some logic that escapes me, based on the contention that timeshare owners are different from people who rent, value wasn't assigned related to what Marriott charges for similar weeks. But the rental market sure looks at that. Do I venture to guess there will be savvy owners who use their points at resorts with lower point allocations but that command higher rentals. What does that mean for those owners- more competition, of course, for those premium weeks.

So my point is that, in reality, the program does change, and that you can't simply use things the way you always did without any loss of benefits. While the loss of exchange opportunities for weeks owners probably is a given, the only saving grace at least for home resort reservations is IF they not only apportion week/point availability by the season, but if they limit the percentage of each week assigned to each pool of inventory. If 75% of the units are being traded in weeks, 75% of each available reservation period should be limited to week reservations and point owners/users should only have access to 25% of each week, not 25% of the total season without unequal distribution.


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## kjd (Jul 1, 2010)

*Something to keep in mind*

All of us prior owners are on the hook for special  assessments as our properties need to be renovated.  The new point system owners have a different deal and I was wondering how Marriott legally would be able to collect from them for a specific property if a point system owner didn't want to pay.  Their contention might be that they bought into a global system.  

The system IMHO calls into question the value of a deed.  The easy answer is that the point system is only a way to trade a unit and they actually have a deed to a property.  I'm not sure that's the case if owners are required to have points to use their own units during their season and also would be stuck with assessments.

After the system is up and running I also wonder if there will be a class action law suit initiated by trial lawyers.  There would be a lot of money involved if they won.  I'm sure there are a lot of direct buyers who would want their money back if they could get it.  I have seen this happen many times with stocks and limited partnerships.  It about bankrupted Prudential Bache years ago.  While Marriott has no doubt contemplated that possibility the courts could say otherwise.  The concept of "unlawful enrichment" has wide boundries.  Just a thought.


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## GregT (Jul 1, 2010)

kjd said:


> All of us prior owners are on the hook for special  assessments as our properties need to be renovated.  The new point system owners have a different deal and I was wondering how Marriott legally would be able to collect from them for a specific property if a point system owner didn't want to pay.  Their contention might be that they bought into a global system.
> 
> The system IMHO calls into question the value of a deed.  The easy answer is that the point system is only a way to trade a unit and they actually have a deed to a property.  I'm not sure that's the case if owners are required to have points to use their own units during their season and also would be stuck with assessments.
> 
> After the system is up and running I also wonder if there will be a class action law suit initiated by trial lawyers.  There would be a lot of money involved if they won.  I'm sure there are a lot of direct buyers who would want their money back if they could get it.  I have seen this happen many times with stocks and limited partnerships.  It about bankrupted Prudential Bache years ago.  While Marriott has no doubt contemplated that possibility the courts could say otherwise.  The concept of "unlawful enrichment" has wide boundries.  Just a thought.



All are good questions.   

I am speculating, but I believe Marriott (actually the trust) would be on the hook to pay the Special Assessment's since they are the owner of the deed.  

I don't believe a Class Action Lawsuit would be warranted because Marriott still gives us the existing rights (even if we are concerned they have been diluted) plus everybody has the option to join in.  It might be different if they only gave certain owners the option to join, but they've given everybody the same option to join, while still letting people keep their existing system (even though we think it's diluted)

My personal view on resale values is that they will plummet while the uncertainty exists around the inventory of the new system and then will stabilize at some lower level once people realize that there is still a viable trading system (assuming that's the case).

I'm sure a more legally saavy expert will chime in here.

Best to all,

Greg


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## Twinkstarr (Jul 1, 2010)

jerseygirl said:


> Laura  -- I already gave you a couple of good reasons why someone might want to book something they already own in this post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Had this happen to me! Get the school schedule, the 2 full week off at Xmas. So I go ahead and make plans(RCI exchange, good thing I got insurance).

3 months later, the board decided to cut back to 10 days off for Xmas. I called and asked why? Parents complained about kids being off for the 2 full weeks. 

Luckily I was able to make a change which made exchange sense for me, but I read enough here on TUG that most of the time people are not that lucky.


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## Dave M (Jul 1, 2010)

m61376 said:


> … one of the most disturbing is Marriott's stance that current owners haven't lost anything- whether or not they join, but just have additional options if they join. I have been told repeatedly "just use your week the way you always have...that will always work best for you."
> 
> HOWEVER- what about: -increased competition for reservations for prime weeks?


It's far from clear that there will be increased competition. As pointed out in the legal documents, those trying to reserve with points can only have a shot at reserving weeks that are committed (trust weeks, weeks traded for MR points, etc.) to the points program. To automatically assume that weeks owners will be losers in the reservations game when Marriott tells us otherwise and when there is some evidence that they are telling the truth seems to be a fatalist conspiracy theory approach. As I have espoused and documented several times, I don't believe the competition will increase to any substantial degree if at all.



> as pointed out above, forget about easily retrading back into your home resort next year.


Why? We have the same ability to lock off and deposit our weeks and seek 2-for-1 exchanges and ACs as in the past. Further related to this ….





> Also- *since Marriott clearly can take week deposits from II to fulfill point requests*, what will the availability in II be for week exchanges? Marriott maintains they have to make a comparable deposit- but doesn;t define comparable. Is it a single week with comparable point value? Or is comparable multiple weeks that add up to the same point value? I have been told that Marriott wouldn't do that- but I have less confidence in the company today than I did two weeks ago.


I think you are trying to state as fact ("clearly") something that you admit Marriott claims otherwise (as high-ranking Marriott executives have told both you and me in phone conversations). The fact that you just don't believe what Marriott has told you doesn't automatically make you correct and Marriott wrong.



> -they are allowing renting of point reservations.


So what's different now? We can all try to reserve the very best weeks today and rent them out for big bucks just as in the past. We know that's what many owners have done by calling in more than 13 months in advance to reserve the really best weeks, stringing a not-so-hot week or two together (13 months from the call date) with really great weeks , and then renting them out. At least Marriott is addressing this by prohibiting the use of points reservations for commercial activity (which I was told meant more than casual rentals and you were initially told meant *all rentals*).  



> So my point is that, in reality, the program does change, and that you can't simply use things the way you always did without any loss of benefits.


It's clear that you don't believe Marriott. I choose to believe what they have said until they prove otherwise. I'm upbeat.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 1, 2010)

Dave M said:


> ... I choose to believe what they have said until they prove otherwise. I'm upbeat.



Dave, you haven't said (and I'm not saying you have to  ) - but have you decided whether or not you'll enroll?


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## Dave M (Jul 1, 2010)

No, I have not decided. I definitely think there are some good things about the new program - such as being able to trade my week for points and then use those points for a couple of short stays, especially midweek or in shoulder seasons such as retirees (I am one) can easily do. Several short stays can potentially mean more overnights than I can get with one of my single weeks.

I think there is still too much that's unknown about the new program and how it will all shake out, including the outcome of the fears that many people have. 

I was pretty sure that the new program would not targeted at us. That turned out to be the case; it's targeted to new points *buyers*. Thus, I had fully expected that it would be far less than a bonanza for us as legacy owners. And it is.

So I'll wait. There are no urgent deadlines....


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## laurac260 (Jul 1, 2010)

Dave M said:


> I was pretty sure that the new program would not targeted at us. That turned out to be the case; it's targeted to new points *buyers*. Thus, I had fully expected that it would be far less than a bonanza for us as legacy owners. And it is.



I completely agree with this.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 1, 2010)

Dave M said:


> No, I have not decided. I definitely think there are some good things about the new program - such as being able to trade my week for points and then use those points for a couple of short stays, especially midweek or in shoulder seasons such as retirees (I am one) can easily do. Several short stays can potentially mean more overnights than I can get with one of my single weeks.
> 
> I think there is still too much that's unknown about the new program and how it will all shake out, including the outcome of the fears that many people have.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the response, all good points.


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## m61376 (Jul 1, 2010)

Dave M said:


> It's far from clear that there will be increased competition. As pointed out in the legal documents, those trying to reserve with points can only have a shot at reserving weeks that are committed (trust weeks, weeks traded for MR points, etc.) to the points program. To automatically assume that weeks owners will be losers in the reservations game when Marriott tells us otherwise and when there is some evidence that they are telling the truth seems to be a fatalist conspiracy theory approach. As I have espoused and documented several times, I don't believe the competition will increase to any substantial degree if at all.
> 
> Why? We have the same ability to lock off and deposit our weeks and seek 2-for-1 exchanges and ACs as in the past. Further related to this ….I think you are trying to state as fact ("clearly") something that you admit Marriott claims otherwise (as high-ranking Marriott executives have told both you and me in phone conversations). The fact that you just don't believe what Marriott has told you doesn't automatically make you correct and Marriott wrong.
> 
> ...



Dave-
I think you misunderstood me- or I wasn't making myself clear-it is not that I don't believe what Marriott has told me as fact- it is that I am not as confident as you with what we have to rely on their good intentions to do.

Let me explain- as for rentals- that's the easiest- right now we are prohibited from renting anything other than our owned week. In the new system, a savvy point owner can reserve a prime higher rental week in any location and rent that. If you play by the rules today, exchanges are prohibited from being rented. Occasional point reservations can be made and rented, which may increase competition at certain locations where rental rates are very high in comparison to point allotments. Will that happen- I don't know. But under  the rules there is potential for abuse.

As for II reservations- the only thing that I know as a fact is that Marriott can fulfill point requests with weeks deposited in II. That is what is clear in the documents. I have said that Marriott has stated that it will substitute a comparable week. I am not leaving that out. What I am saying is that although I have been told it will be a comparable week, there is nothing verifying that it must be a single week. "Comparable" is in the eyes of the beholder. Just as many of us don't feel that the point allocations were comparable to the unit's worth, we are relying on Marriott to make a judgment on comparability. I can foresee the possibility that they may consider 2 2000 point value weeks as being comparable to taking a single 4000 point week. Or what about 2 2500 weeks? The total value is comparable (or even better, and some may feel that is more than fair)- but the exchange opportunities are quite different. I don't see how that is misstating anything that Marriott has said. 

On the last point, depending upon how the pool is subdivided, we may have to agree to disagree. If Marriott allocates weeks/point reservations on a percentage basis per week of available reservations, then I would tend to agree and, moreover I have repeatedly said we have not received confirmation that it will or will not be done this way. However, IF Marriott just allocates as a percentage of the season, then I believe there will be a much bigger problem- because just like owners like to reserve the prime weeks in the season, the additional hundreds or thousands of non-owners will be vying for those limited prime weeks. We have seen that,over and over again, Plat. and Plat. Plus weeks are the first to get sold out, so it is likely that people will be willing to spend more (whether in dollars or points) to reserve those prime, esp. school vacation, weeks.

I think it is very unfair of you to say I don't believe Marriott. In fact, I have not questioned what they have presented as factual. I may not be as optimistic as you are and see exceptions to the "continuing business as usual" mantra, because adding additional owners into the reservation mix and Marriott's ability to fulfill point requests with II deposits (which they themselves have stipulated will be done), in my opinion, changes things.

It's the first time I've ever disagreed with you, btw- it certainly doesn't make me right, but it doesn't make me wrong either. But in no way am I implying that I don't believe what Marriott said- and I'm a little upset at the implication, to be honest.


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## m61376 (Jul 1, 2010)

Dave M said:


> No, I have not decided. I definitely think there are some good things about the new program - such as being able to trade my week for points and then use those points for a couple of short stays, especially midweek or in shoulder seasons such as retirees (I am one) can easily do. Several short stays can potentially mean more overnights than I can get with one of my single weeks.
> 
> I think there is still too much that's unknown about the new program and how it will all shake out, including the outcome of the fears that many people have.
> 
> ...


We agree here as usual  .

Seriously, what surprises me a little is that I would have thought they would have made a system a little more appealing to legacy owners. After all, repeat customers are their best customers- and their best referrals. 

It would have taken very little to have made this much more appealing so that you wouldn't be answering the question with a "maybe." Just think of the publicity if we were shouting from the rooftops how wonderful this program was. So, even though I knew a month ago this wasn't going to be targeted to past owners but was a selling tool for the future, I really thought they would make something that had us clamoring, or at least considering, adding onto our portfolios, or at least eager to recommend the product to others.


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## EducatedConsumer (Jul 3, 2010)

With the 400,000 owners that Marriott Vacation Club reports to have, do you think the opinions of app. 150 TUG members (some who have amassed 1000's of posts and may be deemed, well, lets say "lonely") matters to Marriott? Never mind the fact that that very population has the history that it does of being anti-developer purchasers (built on the premise that Marriott makes its most sizable profits on the sale of MVCI timeshare not MVCI resort operations),

While some members in this community may think their opinion matters to Marriott, I'd suspect their opinion is viewed as one of no statistical (or qualitative) significance.

In my opinion, many of these conversations really are ridiculous. The conspiracy theories and theorists are the most comical.

We live in a land where free speech is sanctioned, and that's one of the many beauties of the land that we live.


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## steveg11 (Jul 3, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> As someone who is essentially an outsider looking in, I don't get this "beef" with skimming.  Quite frankly, were I in a different place in my life, the prospect of being able to trade my one week at Marriott Grande Ocean in Jun-Aug for 5 weeks at the same place in Dec-Feb may one day be VERY appealing to me!  If I was of retirement age I would in fact LOVE to spend 5 weeks at HHI rather than in MW OH.   I don't really care how the points measure out.  I did the comparison, and that is how it works out.  Really, this is the same as complaining that your rewards points buys you less  in busy peak times than it does on off season, off peak times.


As someone who did go ahead and enroll, I agree with you completely. That is THE primary reason why I enrolled. My points from my Grand Chateau week is enough to get me 2 months of vacations if I want it. There may just be a day when I do want it. Until then, I can easily get 2-3 weeks of great vacations in the Marriott system for my one week without the uncertainty of the II exchange, or I can continue to do what I have done in the past if I want, which was to lock off and then exchange via II. Only differences I can see are way fewer fees and way more choices. I can just call and reserve what I need, when I need it, and decide for each vacation depending on who is going with me how big a villa I want.
The people who are whining out of one side of their mouth that no one should enroll because the program is terrible, and out of the other side of their mouth worry that they won't be able to join in the future are amusing to read, but I have a hard time taking them seriously.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 3, 2010)

m61376 said:


> . . . Also- since Marriott clearly can take week deposits from II to fulfill point requests, what will the availability in II be for week exchanges? Marriott maintains they have to make a comparable deposit- but doesn;t define comparable. Is it a single week with comparable point value? Or is comparable multiple weeks that add up to the same point value? I have been told that Marriott wouldn't do that- but I have less confidence in the company today than I did two weeks ago. . . .



This is what I am very much hoping!  I definitely want an advantage over the weeks owners!  There is more than one way for points-based exchanges to be satisfied in II.  When trading a week for a week, there was only one way.  On a weeks-based exchange, you have to have someone else deposit a week (or have an ongoing search) that meets your request.  On a points-based request, an ongoing request-first search can more easily meet your request because there is a chance that Marriott might be able to satisfy the request-first search from their own inventory.  In other words, your searches only offer one week to II to meet other people's searches, but Marriott has lots of weeks to offer II to meet other people's searches.  That fact I think will make II want to do business with Marriott because Marriott has more to offer them than any one individual person.  II is in business to satisfy exchange requests.  To do that they need inventory.  Marriott has inventory.

My analysis may have flaws, but I suspect that II will be very motivated to do business with Marriott's exchange unit.  Of course, all of this depends upon the points-exchanger having enough points to make it interesting for II.  The more points one has, the higher the trade value of the exchange is going to be. (BTW, I am not even considering the possibility that II might be willing to do a two-for-one exchange with Marriott!  I will even not go there!)


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## AUtigerfan (Jul 3, 2010)

GregT said:


> I do think that skimming provides a major selling opportunity for Marriott to take many existing owners that want to join, but are just short of what they need -- so they need to buy 1,000 points at $9.20 so they can really use the system.



If you have a week that you convert to points, then you have the choice to convert that week to points each year, or you can use your week as before.  But if you buy an extra 1000 points, which have no home resort, you have the possibility of using your week and having points that you either have to use, bank, or lose.  So you have to have a plan to use a small amount of points.  Am I looking at this correctly?


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## hotcoffee (Jul 3, 2010)

AUtigerfan said:


> If you have a week that you convert to points, then you have the choice to convert that week to points each year, or you can use your week as before.  But if you buy an extra 1000 points, which have no home resort, you have the possibility of using your week and having points that you either have to use, bank, or lose.  So you have to have a plan to use a small amount of points.  Am I looking at this correctly?



I have not yet run across that in the documents.  It's probably there somewhere.  I suspect it is going to be an all-or-nothing exchange.  I hope you are right, but I suspect that when you exchange your week for points in any given year, you will get all of your points to use for a vacation exchange.  If you exchange into a week that does not use all of your points, I think (but am not sure) you can bank them.  The documentation talks a lot about losing left-over points after the vacation exchange.  So, I still have much to learn.  You can bet that Marriott has designed it so that they get the advantage.  2000 pound gorillas can usually do whatever they want. . . .


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## GregT (Jul 3, 2010)

AUtigerfan said:


> If you have a week that you convert to points, then you have the choice to convert that week to points each year, or you can use your week as before.  But if you buy an extra 1000 points, which have no home resort, you have the possibility of using your week and having points that you either have to use, bank, or lose.  So you have to have a plan to use a small amount of points.  Am I looking at this correctly?




AUTigerFan, welcome to TUG!

What I meant to suggest is that many owners who are interested in redeeming their units for points may find they've been skimmed to be just short of what they need (for comparable bookings but at different resorts).

Because they are just short, they will have to either buy points from Marriott (1,000 points at $9.20 apiece) or rent the shortfall in points from other owners (I am assuming a rental market will emerge as it has with other points systems).

So, an existing owner who has decided to enroll in the system now has a second decision to make:  Now that I'm enrolled, do I 1) redeem my week for points and have a skimmed value that may not be sufficient or 2) do I continue to use my weeks as before.

With respect to your question, if you have a small number of points left, you can either rent them to another owner, bank them to next year (assuming you know by June 30th of the year in which the points expire).  Additionally, once (if) Marriott institutes an Open Season concept, you should be able to reserve time in the coming 30 days at a discount.

I hope this addresses the question?  

Best,

Greg


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## AUtigerfan (Jul 3, 2010)

GregT said:


> AUTigerFan, welcome to TUG!
> 
> What I meant to suggest is that many owners who are interested in redeeming their units for points may find they've been skimmed to be just short of what they need (for comparable bookings but at different resorts).
> 
> ...




Thanks for the welcome.  You have answered my question.  I am a DVC owner, and I've never had any points to bank!  I am always borrowing, though.
  Another question I have is whether Marriott is restricted in changing the points per night required (like DVC is).  Surely Marriott cannot just increase the points required at one week without reducing them at another week.


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## GregT (Jul 3, 2010)

AUtigerfan said:


> Thanks for the welcome.  You have answered my question.  I am a DVC owner, and I've never had any points to bank!  I am always borrowing, though.
> Another question I have is whether Marriott is restricted in changing the points per night required (like DVC is).  Surely Marriott cannot just increase the points required at one week without reducing them at another week.



AUTigersFan,

Hey, if you know Marcus McNeill, please tell him to sign -- we need him this year.   

As I understand the program, and this was confirmed to me by the guy I spoke with, Marriott may tweak the points values (but will decrease one category if they increase another, so it is a zero sum game).  However, the overall points for the property will not change.

All the best,

Greg


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## JimIg23 (Jul 3, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> I have not yet run across that in the documents.  It's probably there somewhere.  I suspect it is going to be an all-or-nothing exchange.  I hope you are right, but I suspect that when you exchange your week for points in any given year, you will get all of your points to use for a vacation exchange.  If you exchange into a week that does not use all of your points, I think (but am not sure) you can bank them.  The documentation talks a lot about losing left-over points after the vacation exchange.  So, I still have much to learn.  You can bet that Marriott has designed it so that they get the advantage.  2000 pound gorillas can usually do whatever they want. . . .



That is a great point.  the logic is if you buy the extra points, one would suspect you would always convert to points, but if you dont, can you really use the 1000 points effectively?  You are going to have to, at 9k and 400 a year MFs.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 3, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> That is a great point.  the logic is if you buy the extra points, one would suspect you would always convert to points, but if you dont, can you really use the 1000 points effectively?  You are going to have to, at 9k and 400 a year MFs.



Yep.  And you can be sure I will be asking the question.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 3, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> That is a great point.  the logic is if you buy the extra points, one would suspect you would always convert to points, but if you dont, can you really use the 1000 points effectively?  You are going to have to, at 9k and 400 a year MFs.



Okay.  Got the answer.  Any points you buy over-and-above what you get for your own week are yours.  So, even if you go to your home resort, you still get the points, and you can do whatever you want with them (i.e., like bank them for the next year).


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## NJDave (Jul 3, 2010)

GregT said:


> With respect to your question, if you have a small number of points left, you can either rent them to another owner, bank them to next year (assuming you know by June 30th of the year in which the points expire).



By renting points, do you mean that a reservation can be made and then rented?  I didn't see where one could rent points to combine with the points a member has to reserve a higher point reservation.  If that were true, the program would be much better.  Since there are so many point possibilties, there are going to be many situations where a member is either short or has a small amount of points left over.  Marriott needs to implement some method to obtain extra points on a one time basis.  I have 5,300 points.  If I wanted an oceanfront unit at Oceanwatch for the 4th of July, I would need 5,400 points.


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## DanCali (Jul 3, 2010)

NJDave said:


> Marriott needs to implement some method to obtain extra points on a one time basis.  I have 5,300 points.  If I wanted an oceanfront unit at Oceanwatch for the 4th of July, I would need 5,400 points.



I'm sure they will be glad to rent people the points they skimmed from them at say $1/point for a one time use... I have 3475 for each Platinum NCV - for some reason quite a few places require 3500 to book.

It's interesting that in all that documentation Marriott does not say what it does or what it is allowed to do with the skimmed points.  

If they will allow point transfers among members, I anticipate that rental market will settle at $0.40-$0.50 per point.


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## m61376 (Jul 3, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I'm sure they will be glad to rent people the points they skimmed from them at say $1/point for a one time use... I have 3475 for each Platinum NCV - for some reason quite a few places require 3500 to book.
> 
> It's interesting that in all that documentation Marriott does not say what it does or what it is allowed to do with the skimmed points.
> 
> If they will allow point transfers among members, I anticipate that rental market will settle at $0.40-$0.50 per point.



I think there is something in the documentation allowing for point transfers between owners- which leads to point renting. What I'm unsure of is if you can just rent points in a given year if you haven't converted a week to points. That would be a nice option let's say if going to your home resort (so it wouldn't make sense to convert because of the skimming), but you'd like a bigger unit. It would make sense to reserve your 2 BR and possibly rent points for a studio, for ex., of that's allowed. 

There hasn't been anything said about one time point rentals from Marriott. I guess that would truly put a dollar value on the skimming, which they may want to avoid.

Of course Marriott doesn't say what it does with the skimmed points- it pays "expenses." They advertise the program's enhancements, but are mute on its costs. The flexibility isn't free, that's for sure. The reason they can do this and other companies haven't is because they are really only "skimming" from current owners. Future sales won't be impacted - or buyers question it- because it is a different system. Of course, it does leave a bad taste and may dissuade current owners from adding to their Marriott portfolio. I guess time will tell.


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## DanCali (Jul 3, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Of course, it does leave a bad taste and may dissuade current owners from adding to their Marriott portfolio. I guess time will tell.



My reaction to this program is to look for another week...

If I find one at a good price I'll grab it!

Oh - it'll probably be a Starwood week - as for the Marriott weeks, we'll see. If I find a Starwood one I like (pricewise) I may just dump my Marriotts...


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## DanCali (Jul 3, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Of course Marriott doesn't say what it does with the skimmed points- it pays "expenses." They advertise the program's enhancements, but are mute on its costs.



What's frustrating about this is that in the CC&Rs they have to disclose any stuff they are up to, even if it's at the expense of owners (they can book reservations for themselves, they get to keep week 53 etc)

Here - there is nothing like that... *how can they just grab 7%-12% of the value of ownership and not disclose where that value is going????* 

"Expenses" is kind of a bit vague, no? Will the resort budgets have a line item saying "skim reimbursement from Marriott for extra expenses due to points"? Will that line be equal to 7%-12% of the resort budgets (if not, where does the rest go)?


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## BocaBoy (Jul 5, 2010)

Ko Olina to Maui is NOT a like exchange.  I own at both.  Maui cost 50% more.  Next I will hear someone say that a July week in the desert equals a Maui week.


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## DanCali (Jul 5, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Ko Olina to Maui is NOT a like exchange.  I own at both.  Maui cost 50% more.  Next I will hear someone say that a July week in the desert equals a Maui week.



Since when is retail cost a benchmark for anything? I could less less what Marriott salespeople sold it for... It's meaningless because you cannot justify retail prices at neither MMO nor MKO, nor the retail price for points for that matter.

I don't follow these resorts but let's play your game... If I look at TUG sales history for MMO and MKO, then resale prices are pretty close. Moreover, MKO is actually rated higher... In terms of trading power, I'm pretty sure II ranks them quite similarly and they also have the same TDI chart. Lastly, as someone who hasn't been to either, I'd have no particular preference.

(Added: also read Luckybee's post below re current rental prices)

The points charts also rank Waiohai below MMO. Are those not like for like either? The compexity of the points chart is ridiculous... I own at Starwood and can remember the points for all the resorts in the system by heart. Here one can hardly memorize their own resort, and certainly not if there is more than one unit size. And by the way, at Starwood, the Maui and Kauai resorts are totally equivalent in points... Marriott could have had four demad tiers and that would have been fine.

I must ask this - are you a Marriott salesperson?


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## Luckybee (Jul 5, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Ko Olina to Maui is NOT a like exchange.  I own at both.  Maui cost 50% more.  Next I will hear someone say that a July week in the desert equals a Maui week.



Not according to Marriott it doesnt...just looked at what Marriott is charging for rentals at both Ko olina and at the Maui OC ..as an example I threw in Nov 1-8 and used leisure rates with no discounts(which is one of the 2 standard rates they list). 
1 bdrm prices: Ko Olina-$323-$371
                    Maui OC-$319-$421
                    Lahaina and Napili-$374-$506

One could actually get into Maui at a lower base price than KoOlina. So if Marriott doesnt think Maui's worth more, why does their VC division?


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## m61376 (Jul 5, 2010)

Luckybee said:


> Not according to Marriott it doesnt...just looked at what Marriott is charging for rentals at both Ko olina and at the Maui OC ..as an example I threw in Nov 1-8 and used leisure rates with no discounts(which is one of the 2 standard rates they list).
> 1 bdrm prices: Ko Olina-$323-$371
> Maui OC-$319-$421
> Lahaina and Napili-$374-$506
> ...



Interesting- you posted exactly what I was wondering about when I read the BocaBoy's post.

Just to add to the mix- out of curiosity I looked up the same dates for Aruba- which is one of the lowest demand times there, btw-and Marriott is still charging 550-580 per night (that 580 was for an OS room and the 550 for an OV room; btw- MVCI deems that since they are selling points OS=OV, whereas 2 weeks ago OS has almost a 5K premium). So, another instance where Marriott thinks something is worth once price, but MVCI assigns it a totally different value.


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## davidvel (Jul 5, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Next I will hear someone say that a July week in the desert equals a Maui week.



What?  Of course it does. That's what a salesman at shadow ridge told me, so it must be true.


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## Dean (Jul 6, 2010)

Luckybee said:


> Not according to Marriott it doesnt...just looked at what Marriott is charging for rentals at both Ko olina and at the Maui OC ..as an example I threw in Nov 1-8 and used leisure rates with no discounts(which is one of the 2 standard rates they list).
> 1 bdrm prices: Ko Olina-$323-$371
> Maui OC-$319-$421
> Lahaina and Napili-$374-$506
> ...


Overall Maui costs more than Oahu.  Oahu is also available at times for MR points, Maui isn't from what I've seen though I'm sure there's been an exception.  However, I would agree that they are relatively comparable, the problem with getting an exchange in to Maui isn't really using Ko'Olina to trade but that there are a lot more people that just other HI owners trying to trade in and often those have top offerings as well (HH summer, Aruba Plat, etc) so there's a lot of competition.  There is NO HI preference if trading other HI options and Maui has more demand than anything else.


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