# ?? Forced Fundraising ??



## swift (May 25, 2010)

Is it legal to force parents to fundraise or pay up? My son is on a swim team and we were not able to participate in the fundraising event that they just did. Now I am being told that I will have to pay $150 on top of his normal monthly fee or he will not be allowed to swim.


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## DeniseM (May 25, 2010)

Based on the price, I'm guessing that this activity is outside of school, so they can probably charge anything they want.  However, it seems like it would have been diplomatic to let you know in advance that participation in the fundraiser was required.  This info. should have been in the registration info.?


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## laurac260 (May 25, 2010)

swift said:


> Is it legal to force parents to fundraise or pay up? My son is on a swim team and we were not able to participate in the fundraising event that they just did. Now I am being told that I will have to pay $150 on top of his normal monthly fee or he will not be allowed to swim.



My daughter is also on a swim team.  The financial committment is $720 per year.  Half of that amount CAN be raised thru fundraising, however if you are not able to raise the funds you are required to pay the amount out of pocket.  

So, essentially you are responsible for the entire amount, fundraising and fees.  The fundraising is just an OPTION they offer if you choose to participate.  

I appreciate the opportunity to be able to do the fundraising so I don't have to reach in my pocket for everything.  Our swim team does not do fundraising "events".  We do fundraising thru Scrips (gift certificates--this has been huge), or thru our local grocer (Kroger), which gives money back for purchases.  We have a few other things as well, but this is the bulk.  Does your swim team do those things?  Perhaps you can suggest they do.  Many schools and organizations use Scrips.  It's very common.  I sell gift certificates to friends who live out of town, so I don't need to do any door to door stuff.


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## theo (May 25, 2010)

*My $0.02 worth...*



swift said:


> Is it legal to force parents to fundraise or pay up? My son is on a swim team and we were not able to participate in the fundraising event that they just did. Now I am being told that I will have to pay $150 on top of his normal monthly fee or he will not be allowed to swim.



With tight school budgets, "pay to play" in specialized recreational activities is (in my opinion, anyhow) an entirely reasonable and acceptable approach to self-support.

I won't proffer a "legal opinion", just a personal view (...offered at the risk of being pummelled for it). 
If the swim team needs money to do their specialized recreational thing, then the participants (and / or their parents) also have the responsibility to support themselves.

It's not a bad life lesson actually -- "there is no free lunch".


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## laurac260 (May 25, 2010)

theo said:


> With tight school budgets, "pay to play" in specialized recreational activities is (in my opinion, anyhow) an entirely reasonable and acceptable approach to self-support.
> 
> I won't proffer a "legal opinion", just a personal view (...offered at the risk of being pummelled for it).
> If the swim team needs money to do their specialized recreational thing, then the participants (and / or their parents) also have the responsibility to support themselves.
> ...



Theresa said her child was on "A swim team".  There are many swim teams that are not affiliated with schools.  This may be the case for her child (it is for mine).


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## Talent312 (May 25, 2010)

I suspect that this is in the nature of a TS MF or Special Assessment that are provided for in the fine print of the disclosures made to you at the time he signed up for this activity, and the fundraiser was to provide an offset.

Just as no one required you to buy a TS, no one ('cept maybe yourself) requires him to swim. So this activity is not protected by statute or government-action, but rather a matter of contract law. I'd examine whatever documents were signed or disclosures were made at the time he/you elected to participate.


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## theo (May 25, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> Theresa said her child was on "A swim team".  There are many swim teams that are not affiliated with schools.  This may be the case for her child (it is for mine).



Point taken, but my observations and opinion remain exactly the same, regardless --- pay to play. 
Even more so in the non-public or "private" arena...


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## justnosy (May 25, 2010)

*I just keep paying...paying...paying...*

My son is in Scouts and lots of fundraising there...and if we don't participate then we have to pay the equivalent amount that was to be fundraised...

My 2 DDs are also in Scouts...if they don't sell cookies (and/or nuts) which is their form of fundraising, then they don't get a share of the money raised towards a trip and we have to pay out of pocket...

My kids are also on a swim team (not school affiliated) and we have no fundraising at all - so I keep writing the checks...

Were you given advanced notice that you have to fundraise or pay the equivalent? What was the fundraiser for? Was it to offset the tuition or for some other purpose?  You have to decide whether it's worth paying up - in my case I would because my kids enjoy swimming with the team.


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## Mel (May 25, 2010)

And "pay to play" has become increasingly popular even with school sports.  Our district will be implementing it next year, but I recall the high school I attended many years ago implemented something similar shortly after I graduated.  It is the responsibility of the school system to educate the children, and that is supported through taxes.  While sports do provide a positive influence, they are not available to anyone who wishes to play, where most extracurricular activities are - and frankly many of those other activities have been self-supporting for years.

As to the OP's question, many local leagues (particularly football, swimming, and little league) have mandatory fundraising, often through the sales of candy bars.  Parents are given the option of a "buy-out" where they pay an amount equal to what the league would have gotten if they had sold their quota.  Another league my oldest DD was in had a volunteer committment, with a buyout, in order to keep their concession stand staffed.

Having been a girl scout leader for several years, and watching half the girls participate in cookie sales and other money-earning activities, while the other half enjoyed the fruits of their labor, I fully support a policy which allows multiple options, but makes it clear each family must provide support in one way or another.  Yes, there are some families who are willing to pay for everything, and yes it means that some families will constantly be "doing all the work" but that is the way the world works.

Was the $150 a known amount before the fundraiser, or was that number based on what what earned during the fundraiser?  What amount of commitment would have been required in order to avoid paying the $150?  What period of time does that $150 cover?  It it means participation for a year, without any further fundraising it might be worth it. This is something to watch for when signing up for extracurricular activities in the future.


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## Rob&Carol Q (May 25, 2010)

I have an insider view on this issue...

1st off, I am the President of a Soccer Association that puts almost 600 kids on the field.  Money is life.  It's how I pay for Field Maintenance, my Ref's, and my Uniforms.  The big battle I have with my Board is how to keep our prices down and get as many kids as we can.  A mandatory fundraiser fits the bill.  Families can do it or just pay the fee.  That said, you have to be VERY upfront about it.  It is, however, an emotional issue...especially in this economic time.  In my "Spare" time, I also assist with the local Rec Swim Team...I kind of have the hots for the President of that team...she is also known as my Dear Sweet Bride...

Swimming is a very expensive sport.  Most outsiders don't realize that those Coaches, Lifeguards, and the Pool Time are not provided gratis by the "Y" or the city.  Shoot, have you ever priced out lane lines and the Lane Line Reels?!?!  In our Recreational Swim League, our fees are fairly low ($125) thanks to the city not fully exposing us to the pool costs so we can get away without outside fundraising.  That said, we solicit a few sponsors to buy ad space on our Team T-Shirt and our Concession Stand can generate up to $1500 for us during the season.  Honestly, our Recreational Swim Team is VERY fortunate.  

We do, however, do one thing that irritates "some" of our parents.  We require a $100 work deposit from every Swim Family.  With something like 75 families, it comes to some pretty serious cash...at least for our rec team.  We pay back the deposit IF (and only if) the family covers 4 volunteer slots during the season plus 1 slot during our championships.  OK, so last year we did make an exception for a family that had a medical emergency...come on, this is a small town.  Still, plenty of opportunity to work off that obligation as we probably consume some 75 volunteer slots each home meet (3) and 20 each away meet (again, 3).  Some families just consider it another expense and do not volunteer.  Others don't fulfill the obligation and only get a partial back.  That said, we are VERY upfront about the deposit at registration...without it, you do not swim or practice.  And yet, there is always a family or three that get agitated at the end of the year when they don't get the deposit back.  We probably get another $1,000 added to our budget once the season ends because of this.  Truth be told...I would rather have the bodies.

If you are doing Winter Swim with one of the Clubs or at the Y, the cost goes up rather dramatically...I think ours is $590 but will jump to $700+ once my son hits Jr High.  You are in the Commercial world now, money talks and results matter.  The Y Team that we swim with in the Winter levies a fundraising charge (only $75) that we can pay (which we chose to do) or we can schlep cookie dough, pies, candles, discount cards, or whatever.  The Y parents have their act together on the fundraising.  Anything raised beyond the $75 goes to entry fees.  Lots, and lots, and lots of opportunity to turn your swimmer into a Fuller Brush sales rep.  Not a bad deal, just not for me.  One thing I did notice when we joined is that so much is going on.  It is easy for a new parent to get lost unless they reach out and grab somebody.  Our Y team assigned new parents to veteran swim team parents.  It really makes a difference.

In the case presented...sorry, I would expect payment.  Then again, you wouldn't be suprised that we were having the conversation since we would have already discussed this when you registered.  And I would have included a comment or two in the Team Newsletter or Info Packet that every parent should get.  Yeah, I'm big on the open and frequent communication thingy.


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## PigsDad (May 25, 2010)

swift said:


> Is it legal to force parents to fundraise or pay up? My son is on a swim team and we were not able to participate in the fundraising event that they just did. Now I am being told that I will have to pay $150 on top of his normal monthly fee or he will not be allowed to swim.


I don't see that as unreasonable at all.  Why should someone who didn't participate in the fund raising (no matter the reason) enjoy the same benefits as those who do participate?  

Would you be ok with someone not paying their MFs at your resort, causing your MFs to increase or reserve funds to deplete, and then still be able to use their week?  I think not.  This is the same thing, IMO (and as others have mentioned, "pay to play").

Kurt


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## rickandcindy23 (May 25, 2010)

One of the local school districts is charging $1.00 per day to ride the school bus, so that just demonstrates to me that schools are broke. 

We were very involved in the high school's band boosters club, we were one of the top two bands in the state, and it was very disconcerting that some kids didn't participate in bingo or the other fundraisers.  These same lazy kids got free trips, because parents refused to pay, but the school district said no one could be left out.  We still had to pay for the trips.  The bingo was for uniforms, extra staff, truck rentals, etc.  We spent hundred of thousands of dollars per year, and those kids and parents that did nothing--annoying.  

For some of the deadbeats, it wasn't about money.  One young lady went to Brown University, and her parents were bragging about how great it was that she was admitted, but no money for the band trips for the three years she was in band.   

I was a Brownie leader and some girls didn't sell anything, but it didn't bother me because we collected dues every week and had enough money without working hard at the cookie sales.  But we always had those girls who sold like 200 boxes.  It was a lot of work for the leader--me--getting those cookies together and delivered to each girl's house.  Do you know the troops only get to keep like 35 cents per box?  So 200 boxes is only $70.  It's not much for the work involved.  

I think we collected $4.00 per week in dues, which really added up and paid for our "camping trip" to Twin Rivers a few years (yes, that is a timeshare in the mountains:rofl: ).


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## ciscogizmo1 (May 25, 2010)

Rob&Carol Q said:


> We do, however, do one thing that irritates "some" of our parents.  We require a $100 work deposit from every Swim Family.  With something like 75 families, it comes to some pretty serious cash...at least for our rec team.  We pay back the deposit IF (and only if) the family covers 4 volunteer slots during the season plus 1 slot during our championships.  OK, so last year we did make an exception for a family that had a medical emergency...come on, this is a small town.  Still, plenty of opportunity to work off that obligation as we probably consume some 75 volunteer slots each home meet (3) and 20 each away meet (again, 3).  Some families just consider it another expense and do not volunteer.  Others don't fulfill the obligation and only get a partial back.  That said, we are VERY upfront about the deposit at registration...without it, you do not swim or practice.  And yet, there is always a family or three that get agitated at the end of the year when they don't get the deposit back.  We probably get another $1,000 added to our budget once the season ends because of this.  Truth be told...I would rather have the bodies.


  We do the same thing except our job deposit is $250.  I agree with you that people are totally clueless on how much things cost to run.  We have tons of expenses like paying the coaches, lifeguards, pool chemicals, heating the pool, cleaning the pool, insurance, buying new equipment, rope lanes, etc.   Then, double the fact that we live in California everything is triple the price it is elsewhere.  We just bought a new display scoreboard and it cost around $5000.  

But back to the OP, yes, we do a fundraiser as well and we need to raise at least $10,000 a year to stay afloat.   This is about $200 per swimmer.   If we didn't raise the money then our dues would just go up.   We like this option as many have mentioned before at least you can raise the money instead of reaching into your own pocket.  My daughter is on a water polo team and their requirement is to raise $20,000 per year.   They have over 500 players.


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## PigsDad (May 25, 2010)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> We do the same thing except our job deposit is $250.  I agree with you that people are totally clueless on how much things cost to run.  We have tons of expenses like paying the coaches, lifeguards, pool chemicals, heating the pool, cleaning the pool, insurance, buying new equipment, rope lanes, etc.   Then, double the fact that we live in California everything is triple the price it is elsewhere.  We just bought a new display scoreboard and it cost around $5000.


Interesting to see how other swim teams work across the country.  My DD is on our local swim team (9yo) and the monthly dues are $70 (which don't include meet fees), plus each family is required to provide 8 sessions of meet support.  Each session is a 4-6 hour commitment, so it is about 40 volunteer hours on average for the year.

At the end of the year, if you did not complete your meet support, you are billed $80/session.  So someone who did not work any sessions would be billed $640!  $100 or $250 job deposits look cheap compared to that (but our fund raising activities are completely voluntary).

Kurt


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## Patri (May 25, 2010)

I'm tired of fundraising. We opt out for some, paying a fee instead, to avoid door to door or bother your friends sales of sandwiches, pizzas, candy etc. Other events we participate in, such as Tag Day, which surprisingly is very successful and easy. We get permission to stand in front of a store for an evening or Saturday, and the kids politely ask customers if they would like to make a donation toward their team's tournament expenses or whatever. Many do! Everyone takes a shift. Parents have to be present, of course, for supervision.
Usually, only the kids that participate in any fundraiser get a split of the proceeds, unless it is a league-wide event going toward capital expenses. For those, the kids may but are not required to participate. Right now a league is selling raffle tickets to help pay for a fence. The board will take back unsold tickets in June, sell them at a carnival, and then have the drawing.
I agree, sports are expensive. We know upfront how everything will play out during the season.


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## geekette (May 25, 2010)

my brother has been a swim coach all of his adult life, and pay to play is the deal.  It's his team, he sends the invoices, collects the money, pays the facility rental, buys the equipment, maintains, etc.   

Legality has nothing to do with it, and in fact, if no physical force is used, no one can MAKE you do anything.  But a private business can deny you service, simple as that.  People that don't want to play by the rules my brother sets out can go to the other team in town.  People try to pull the "I pay your wages" crap all the time and it doesn't work.  There are reasons why my brother doesn't work for anyone; he makes the rules, stands up for what's right, and doesn't play favorites.  If you don't like how he does business, don't do business with him.  But he's good at what he does and is always happy to explain the fee schedule at any time.

If someone refuses to pay, he refuses to allow their kid into practice until they do.  No exceptions.  He can't float hardship cases because he's close to hardship himself.

If you just found the rules out the hard way, I'd bring lack of communication to the attention of whoever is in charge.  but now that you know that it's not free, the choice is yours.  pay up or walk away.


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## geekette (May 25, 2010)

oh, and by the way, I hated fundraising crap as a kid.  door to door - blech.  selling stuff -  blech.  time-consuming, disappointing, not much money collected      just a big ole downer 

swimathons were ok except having to get pledges (door to door) then having to go back (door to door) afterwards to collect.  twice the work!   

yick.

had there been a choice, I would have begged my parents to just pay so I didn't have to do that crap.  Be glad there is choice.


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## laurac260 (May 25, 2010)

not a big fan of fund raising either, but I get why we have it.  I choose the least painful ones.  I like that our grocery store gives us a percentage back for each purchase.  I simply get a gift card, load it up with money before I shop, then use the card for my purchases.  It's not alot of money back, but I'm shopping anyway, so it works.  In fact, I use my Marriott Rewards card (points), put $100-$200 on my Kroger grocery card, then buy my groceries, use the grocery card to pay (money back for fund raising), and I also earn "points" from my grocer for shopping there, which in turn I use at their gas pump.  I can get from $.10 up to $1.00 per gallon off  gas at their pump.  win, win, win.   Grandma, aunts and uncles, anyone can use the cards.  

I also like scrips.  There's a few people in my family who will buy them off me, and I do as well.  If you are going out to dinner at Outback, or going to Barnes and Noble, or shop at Eddie Bauer (the list is endless) anyway, why not buy the gift certificates from scrips, and get the percentage back towards volunteering commitments?  That is what I tell my family members.  Don't buy cards you won't use, but buy cards for places you go to anyway.  

Theresa (and others), if your organization doesn't fund raise in any of these ways, you should ask them if they would.  Of course, be prepared to volunteer to be the go to person for coordinating, if no one else steps up.  I understand Panera has fund raising opportunities with their cards as well.

We also do the volunteer shifts as well.   My favorite is concession stands!


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## johnsontrio (May 25, 2010)

Since the topic is fundraising for swim teams, I will chime in here.  My DD has been swimming year round now for almost 10 years now.  During that time we have been on 2 different year round teams, one summer club and her (not public) high school team.  All of the teams have to do fundraising in order to get the bills paid.  Here pool rental starts at about $8 per lane.  Considering both the year round teams run 4 hours of practice 5 days a week and 2 hours on Saturday, that adds up.  They have between 4 and 6 lanes at all times.  And then you have coaches salaries and all the other associated costs.

We pay $360 per quarter for her year round team plus a yearly family registration fee.  The team we are on now has a work requirement in addition to the fundraising fee.  If you don't work 3 sessions per home meet you must pay $60 per session missed so that they can hire someone to work  in your place.  To run a large successful meet it takes 3 sessions from each of the 100+ families just to fill the spots and run a smooth meet.  Many meet volunteers work the entire 3 day meet, morning and afternoon sessions.  The meet chairperson and committee chairs put in countless hours of time for months prior to the meet, none of which is paid.  

We use scrip as a fundraiser as well.  The amount of profit from scrip is split 70/30 by the member and the club and your part can be applied towards your quarterly dues.  I am not sure how much money this generates for the club over the course of the year, but it has diminished the nickel and dime fundraising that used to take place.

MY DD's private high school has a mandatory sweepstakes raffle requiring each girl to sell $150 worth of tickets each Spring, $125 for each sibling.  It is included in your contract that the amount will be added to your bill and grades can be held if this is not done.  I add that information to address what is common practice for private businesses and organizations. 

I think it is reasonable for your team to require financial support in whatever way the board has agreed to proceed.  The important thing is that they inform families when they join, and again each year when signing up, that this expectation is there and the consequences of not fulfilling the requirement.  If this is not being done currently, you should speak to a board member or club president to voice your concern.


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## johnsontrio (May 25, 2010)

swift said:


> Is it legal to force parents to fundraise or pay up? My son is on a swim team and we were not able to participate in the fundraising event that they just did. Now I am being told that I will have to pay $150 on top of his normal monthly fee or he will not be allowed to swim.



Oh, I meant to add $150 seems steep to me for one missed fundraiser.   I would ask the board to be candid about how much they actually raised *per participant *and I would think that amount would be reasonable.  Can I ask what kind of fundraiser it was?  I know we do not have good response to car washes and that type of thing.


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## sstamm (May 25, 2010)

Interesting to hear from all the swimming families here!  I have had children in year-round and summer swimming for about 13 years.  My oldest now swims for her college team and coaches during the summer.  I was one of the Team Representatives (organizers) for our summer team for several years.  One of my responsibilities was lining up the volunteers for meets and other activities.  Although my position as an organizer fulfilled our volunteer commitment, as a certified official, I also worked nearly every meet.

Each family was asked to volunteer for 5 different events over the summer season, but the same people volunteered again and again.  Getting some of the non-helpers to step up was the biggest challenge.  We have talked about collecting a $ deposit, or billing families that did not help, but so far our team has not.  Many area teams here have gone to that method.  While having that money would have been great, what I really needed was people standing on deck with a stopwatch in their hand!!  I always had a "new parents" session to give parents the ins and outs, as swimming requires more parent help than any other sport I've encountered.

In any event, as far as the OP is concerned, I think most people realize that sports are expensive and that you have to pay to play.  To me, the central issue is communication.  If the expectation is to participate in fund-raising or pay, then that needs to be made clear to parents prior to registration.  It is not right to not mention that and just present a bill to the parents.  If, however, it was communicated to the parents, then it is their obligation to pay up.


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## swift (May 27, 2010)

Thank you for everyone's opinion. Yes, this is a year round non school swim team. My son just started this year and I do not recall anything being said regarding mandatory fundraiser. I do recall mandatory  volunteer work which I am fine with. As far as comparing this to paying my MF fee's I do not see how this compares because I do pay my monthly swim fee which I would equate to being the same as paying my timeshare MF's. The fundraising event was a swim-a-thon. With fundraising I would much rather do service type events such as car washes or something than go around and beg people for money. I don't have a large family such as aunts and uncles to support him in this and at work we are so hit up with school fundraising that most people are just tapped out. I guess I will just shut up and pay up but am still not happy about it. :annoyed:


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## Mel (May 27, 2010)

I would still ask the board for a breakdown of what was raised - what were both the median and mean raised by either individual kids or families.  Yes, some kids can raise that kind of money with that kind of event, but others cannot.   I would expect the price to opt out to be somewhere near the mean or median (which could be very different numbers).  But $150 doesn't seem like much for that type of event - 15 sponsors at $10 each or 30 at $5.  Many people are willing to help out when it's only a matter of $5.


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## sstamm (May 27, 2010)

Mel said:


> I would still ask the board for a breakdown of what was raised - what were both the median and mean raised by either individual kids or families.  Yes, some kids can raise that kind of money with that kind of event, but others cannot.   I would expect the price to opt out to be somewhere near the mean or median (which could be very different numbers).  But $150 doesn't seem like much for that type of event - 15 sponsors at $10 each or 30 at $5.  Many people are willing to help out when it's only a matter of $5.



I hear what you are saying, but personally, I don't want my kids asking neighbors for $5 or $10 all the time.  There are a number of fund-raising drives for all kinds of activities- school, band, church youth group, sports, etc and I would feel bad if my kids were constantly asking neighbors for money.  After all, there are lot of kids in the neighborhood and parents have their own kids stuff to pay for too.  Likewise, I don't always want my neighborhood kids at my door asking me for money.

To the OP:  I agree that a service-type fund raiser is best, unless the money raised is for charity, such as Relay for Life.  I don't like kids just asking for money because their team needs it.  That being said, I have been known to make a flat donation to a group selling goods that I am not interested in.  But then it is my choice.

I also agree that it might be a good idea to ask about the amount raised by other kids or families.  I think $150 sounds kind of steep.  Also, ask them about the communication of the fund-raising requirement.  Was it just something you missed in the fine print or do they not communicate well?  Also make sure you understand the requirement going forward- you might not be done fund-raising yet!!


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## wcfr1 (May 27, 2010)

My daughter swims for her HS. Same thing. $150 donation is required to participate. They do a swim yearbook and sell ads. If I sell $150 worth of ads it counts towards my donation.


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