# VIP Value



## Sandy VDH (Nov 10, 2012)

I was curious how much my VIP Plat netted me in Discounts and Upgrades this year. 

Now I did not consider what non VIP discounts were available, because in all honesty I have no idea what was available.  I never look.

Now this year was an unusual year, in that I did a lot of short term bookings, with discounts and free upgrades.  Not any of this was a book, cancel and rebook approach.  I just book at the 60 day mark or less most of the time.

I Have 727,000 (It is considered Platinum via the 2 PIC contracts which I never bother to deposit)


The Stats:
Booked 19 reservations
Booked 71 days, just over 10 weeks worth. (Only 2 of my reservations were for 7 days, most were anywhere from 1 to 5 days)
Received VIP Plat 50% off discount on 17 of 19 reservations.
Received VIP Upgrade on 15 of 19
Booked 1 RCI Vacation (NYC Hilton Club) via Wyndham

Value of Discounts:

Used all of my 727,000
Rented 5,890 pts for just under $50 to make my last reservation for year

Received 621,250 in Value for 50% off Discounts
Received 1,001,150 in Value for Free Upgrades

So Grand total of 2,349,400 in point value received for just under 736,000 in annual MFs.

Now that is an exceptional year and a bit unusual for my normal pattern, but I guess I got my value out of VIP this year.


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## lcml11 (Nov 10, 2012)

Sandy VDH said:


> I was curious how much my VIP Plat netted me in Discounts and Upgrades this year.
> 
> Now I did not consider what non VIP discounts were available, because in all honesty I have no idea what was available.  I never look.
> 
> ...



I experienced similar results with my VIP Platinum benifits.


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## staceyeileen (Nov 11, 2012)

Interesting stats!  One thing is for sure, I don't have enough vacation time to be VIP.


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## jebloomquist (Nov 11, 2012)

I don't want to go through the calculations, but I rented over 2 million points, and would bet that the amount booked would have been close to 5 million points without the discounts and upgrades. I will have to do some calculations for the IRS however.


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## lcml11 (Nov 11, 2012)

jebloomquist said:


> I don't want to go through the calculations, but I rented over 2 million points, and would bet that the amount booked would have been close to 5 million points without the discounts and upgrades. I will have to do some calculations for the IRS however.



Here is a review of my current bookings within the 60 day Platinum Discount period.  All entries are Friday and Saturday weekend bookings.  Both National Harbor's did not get the upgrades.  So, this is probaly on the high side for a snap shot in time.  

Wyndham Vacation Resorts Shawnee Village - Ridge Top
Points Used: 18500     2 bedroom deluxe
44,000 Point Chart Value

Wyndham Vacation Resorts at National Harbor
Points Used: 35000     2 bedroom deluxe
89,000  Point Chart Value

Wyndham Skyline Tower
Points used 21,000        1 bedroom suite
42,000  Point Chart Value

Wyndham Vacation Resorts at National Harbor
Points Used: 38000        2 bedroom deluxe 
72,000  Point Chart Value

Wyndham Vacation Resorts Shawnee Village - Ridge Top
Points Used: 35000        2 bedroom deluxe
74,000  Point Chart Value

Wyndham Old Town Alexandria
Points Used: 18500       2 bedroom deluxe 
64,000  Point Chart Value

Wyndham Old Town Alexandria
Points Used: 18500      2 bedroom deluxe
64,000  Point Chart Value

184,500  VIP Discount points for weekends
449,000  Point Chart Value

14 nights (Friday and Saturday nights only)
5.4 dollars per thousand (approximates Club Wyndham Access rate)  equals $ 2, 442.56
1,003.68 (Friday and Saturday nights only)  nightly rate is 71.69 per night
$ 2, 442.56  (Friday and Saturday nights only)  nightly rate is 174.46 per night

Just added another National Harbor, with upgrade this time.

Wyndham Vacation Resorts at National Harbor
2 Bedroom Deluxe Points required: 41,500
Point Chart Value:  89,000 points


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## lprstn (Nov 24, 2012)

I won't ever upgrade with Wyndham again - they rules change WAY too much for me.


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## onthego (Nov 24, 2012)

Here are our numbers
128 Nights with discount/Upgrade
 14 Nights with discount only
   8 Nights with no discount
150 Total nights avg cost $56 per night.


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## timeos2 (Nov 24, 2012)

Low per night average for the fees paid mean little as the cost to get VIP points vs resale can be 90% extra or more. Fee per point is the same resale or retail so the real savings are only the minimal value of discounted points & it would take decades to ever make up that 90%+ paid as extra, out of pocket REAL dollars paid for VIP points vs resale points. The math seldom makes sense. VIP since retail purchase was made a requirement is basically worthless. In fact in most cases it costs - no way saves-money.


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## jjmanthei05 (Nov 25, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Low per night average for the fees paid mean little as the cost to get VIP points vs resale can be 90% extra or more. Fee per point is the same resale or retail so the real savings are only the minimal value of discounted points & it would take decades to ever make up that 90%+ paid as extra, out of pocket REAL dollars paid for VIP points vs resale points. The math seldom makes sense. VIP since retail purchase was made a requirement is basically worthless. In fact in most cases it costs - no way saves-money.



I would agree with John. The only time that VIP makes sense is if you would strive to achive mega renter status with a large contingent of resale points. If you are using it for your own personal use it rarely makes sense unless you plan on making wyndham your permenant home. 

Jason


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## MFT (Nov 25, 2012)

This is a great debate, VIP vs non-VIP.  I have several friends who have VIP, and are very happy, and if they are happy, I'm happy.  But if you are at square 1, which is the best direction.  Let's do a little math.

Using one of the comparisons, the "discount" amounted to around 68.7%, which means if their average MF was $5, they ended up effectively paying $1.56 for the total point value they obtained. Pretty sweet discount... but consider the following.

If you buy resale, and it's not unusual to obtain a property at 90% off retail, but lets even use 80% for this comparison ($0.20 on the dollar).

If you bought say 1000K worth of Wyndham points for say $10 (It's actually closer to $12 - $14 depending on incentives), and got a 70% discount off your useage, you would save over 20 years of use, roughly $115730.80 in MF (Taking into consideration a 5% increase annual of MF, etc...).

Now, if for argument sake, those 1000K points cost you $20K compared to $100K, and you invested that $80K savings in a mutual fund with an average of 5% annual return (very modest), after 20 years, you would have $212263.82.  Basically, you would be $96532.98 ahead financially non-VIP vs VIP.

So though the discounts are good, I think the return on investing the amount saved by buying resale as you can see is still a better deal.  Now, if Wyndham would roll say 80% your resale properties into a VIP program, than you are probably at a point where going VIP would be a great program.  But without that conversion, it's still in my opinion a better deal to go resale.


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## Rent_Share (Nov 25, 2012)

IMHO the resale price of 1M (or 1*,*000K) Points would be closer to $5K not $20K

MFT - Is your comma key broken ?


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## MFT (Nov 25, 2012)

Absolutely, it would probably be closer to the $5K range, but I'm using the $20K as one of those "worst case scenarios.  Paying to much for smaller contracts, or maybe having 1 developer contract mixed in.  If I had used the $5K amount, I'd have people saying "oh, that's to low for 1 Mil points...  Obviously, if you have another $15K going into a fund for 20 years, your return is even greater!


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## timeos2 (Nov 25, 2012)

It would be a plus if we could all agree that VIP is, as it is sold today, a value ONLY if you plan to be a Megarenter OR actually USE massive amounts of points personally. For 95%+ of Wyndham buyers it holds ZERO value compared to the great deals readily available using resale. 

It still amazes me how many timeshare savvy folks still fall for the Wyndham Weasel's (sorry to degrade real Weasels by comparing them to these often fact twisting or outright lying sales folk) tall tales of savings even as they sell for $15 /1000 what you can have for a few hundred at most.  Yet they somehow manage to make it SEEM that spending thousands up front and lost forever in a mere matter of days make sense. Speaks volumes of how easily manipulated the typical buyer really is.  

The few we manage to help here pale in in the overall scheme as the sale numbers show. What a waste of hard earned money.  NEVER buy retail VIP or not. It just isn't a deal (and that applies to all timeshare not just Wyndham).


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## ronparise (Nov 25, 2012)

Rent_Share said:


> IMHO the resale price of 1M (or 1*,*000K) Points would be closer to $5K not $20K
> 
> MFT - Is your comma key broken ?



In which case, the argument against buying from the developer to get VIP status is even stronger

putting a real world face on this;  I just contracted to buy 3,000,000 points at just under $3000 total purchase price incl closing and transfer fees..lets assume that a platinum VIP could enjoy the same level of vacation experiences with just 1,000,000 points

heres how costs break down

me  vs  Platinum VIP

points:  3mm vs 1mm
mf:  $15000/yr   vs $5000/yr
purchase price;  $3000 vs $150000

So I will spend  $10000 a year mf more than the VIP , but he spent $150000 for that "savings" In my simple way of looking at thinks thats a 15 year break even

But things are not that simple. If my choice is to buy a million points from the developer at $150000 or to buy 3 million points at $3000 and keep my $150000; I might invest the $150000 in a nice muni bond fund at 5% and make some of my maintenance fees that way.  So at the end of 15years the VIP buyer in my example will have a million wyndham points and will have spent $75000 in mf . I will have my points that cost me $112500 in mf, but I will still have my $150000 in the bank.

so for the regular guy buying timeshares to enjoy vacations with his family. It does not make sense to buy Platinum VIP status . 

If you like however, i can make what I think is a compelling argument  to buy into Platinum VIP as part of a rental business, business plan..,


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## lcml11 (Nov 25, 2012)

ronparise said:


> In which case, the argument against buying from the developer to get VIP status is even stronger
> 
> putting a real world face on this;  I just contracted to buy 3,000,000 points at just under $3000 total purchase price incl closing and transfer fees..lets assume that a platinum VIP could enjoy the same level of vacation experiences with just 1,000,000 points
> 
> ...



Following up on Ron's post.  Just went through E-Bay and found a combination of contracts for a little over 1 million points at Myrtle Beach and Smokey Mountain.  Did not do the math, but about 1/3 Smokey Mountain, 2/3 Myrtle Beach.  Found the following:

$1,196 in resort transfer fees 
$161.50 approx. of current bids

Heck, this might be cheaper than one rental at Marti Gras for a week.  Granted you would have to pay the maintance fees going forward.

If you are of a mind to duplicate my math.  Go to E-Bay, search for timeshare wyndham.  Add to your watch list those Smokey Mountain and Myrtle Beach contracts that are bid only or bid plus transfer fee.  You will go over the 1 million mark using annual and bi-annual contracts.

Did not check for use year dates, however, some of these purchases may have the adjustment points tag along with them if one moved quick enough.  An extra bonus to the point that it exists.


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## jebloomquist (Nov 25, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> It would be a plus if we could all agree....



It appears that Ron was entering his comments as I was composing this one.

“It would be a plus if we could all agree…” I think that all of the unimaginative, non-creative, non-negotiators, name-callers, and axe grinders should agree, but not everyone. 

I have stated before that I have over 2 million VIP eligible points, and I paid under $80,000. The equivalent resale points considering my discounts and upgrades would be over 5 million points. The yearly maintenance fee difference is enormous.

Let’s look at it another way. Are you a good enough negotiator to get 1 million VIP points for $100,000? Say “yes” for argument. The equivalent point power from resale requires about 2.4 million points at say a $5/1000 resale price or a $12,000 purchase.

So, the purchase price difference is $88,000. A big amount, I agree.

But let’s now look at the yearly maintenance fees incurred at say $5/1000.

The 1 million VIP points have a maintenance fee of $5,000, whereas the 2.4 million resale points have a maintenance fee of  $12,000 or a $7,000 difference.

The $88,000 difference in purchase price is made up in under 13 years. Plus, once VIP Platinum is reached, you can purchase resale and get VIP upgrades and discounts on the resales points as well.

So, if you add on another million resale points at $5,000 to the VIP and 2.4 million at $12,000 to the resale for equivalent user power, you have now spent $105,000 versus $24,000. The difference now in purchasing prices is $81,000. The maintenance fees are $10,000 and $24,000 respectively, or a difference of  $14,000 per year. The $81,000 purchase difference is made up in less than 6 years. Get 3 million VIP versus 7.2 million resale and the payback is only 4 years. 

Think small if you must. Name call if you will. Just leave the creative, imaginative, negotiators alone.

Jim


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## lcml11 (Nov 25, 2012)

jebloomquist said:


> It appears that Ron was entering his comments as I was composing this one.
> 
> “It would be a plus if we could all agree…” I think that all of the unimaginative, non-creative, non-negotiators, name-callers, and axe grinders should agree, but not everyone.
> 
> ...



Well said.


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## timeos2 (Nov 25, 2012)

And you prove my point that 95%+ of all buyers wouldn't want or benefit from even your most optimistic way to "save" by spending (and wasting) tens of thousands that are far more valuable n your pocket rather than Wyndhams. 

Not arguing with your math (although it makes many dubious assumptions) but saying it simply doesn't  matter or apply to the vast majority of owners/potential buyers. Few if any want over 1 million annual points for personal use. The <5% more than covers those rare exceptions.


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## ronparise (Nov 25, 2012)

jebloomquist said:


> It appears that Ron was entering his comments as I was composing this one.
> 
> “It would be a plus if we could all agree…” I think that all of the unimaginative, non-creative, non-negotiators, name-callers, and axe grinders should agree, but not everyone.
> 
> ...



And of course, if you are doing this to provide inventory for a rental business, the guest certificates come into play. A million plus VIP points will give 30 guest certs. Thats another $3000 a year to factor into your break even calculations


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## Rent_Share (Nov 25, 2012)

jebloomquist said:


> but I rented over 2 million points, and would bet that the amount booked would have been close to 5 million points





ronparise said:


> I just contracted to buy 3,000,000 points at just under $3000 total ..,


 
At these levels you comments have no relevance to my purpose of being on this board and have become braggadocios, 

Back on ignore, added to ignore


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## MFT (Nov 25, 2012)

Rent_Share said:


> At these levels you comments have no relevance to my purpose of being on this board and have become braggadocios,
> 
> Back on ignore, added to ignore



Bazinga!  I still believe for the 95% Wyndham owners who use the points for their own use, and own less than 1 Mil points, VIP doesn't have financial advantages.  Now, the MEGA-renters is a totally different thing, and I'm not going to argue with Jim and Ron on those points.  But I am not a mega-renter...  I just like my 2 - 4 weeks of vacation a year.

BTW: I did up an excel tool this morning, and unless like Jim stated, you get into the multi-million points, the savings really don't kick in, but you have to remember to factor in an interest return on the amount you saved purchasing resale.  

Always enjoy the debates, and am agreeing with all the various views, as it fits what they do or need with their ownership.


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## Sandy VDH (Nov 25, 2012)

Since I got my VIP Platinum with Fairfield acquired Fixed weeks converted to points and 2 PIC contracts with only a 160K purchase from Wyndham directly, it wasn't a bad deal for VIP Platinum in my books.  Other may disagree but....

I did get VIP Platinum written into the contract and it has already been taken away, challenged and re-honored.

So adding more points to an already VIP Platinum account seems like a darn good idea.


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## bnoble (Nov 25, 2012)

Most of the credible analyses I've seen on this question---i.e., those that at least include opportunity cost on invested capital---are at best a push, and are more often in favor of a resale purchase.  Even then, the payoff horizon is so long that you are risking a lot assuming Wyndham won't change things...again.

And, that's not surprising.  Sales has to pay for VIP benefits.  It is very unlikely that, on average, a VIP purchaser is going to get more in the end than they are paying for.

That's not to say that those who have a VIP account should not enjoy it.  But, if anyone is reading this thread trying to decide which way they go about a Wyndham purchase, the answer is almost certainly "buy resale".  The exceptions are few and far between.


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## ronparise (Nov 25, 2012)

Rent_Share said:


> At these levels you comments have no relevance to my purpose of being on this board and have become braggadocios,
> 
> Back on ignore, added to ignore



Jim and I have both tried to make the point that buying from Wyndham to get their VIP benefits is almost always a bad decision. but there might be exceptions

That we are adding a little personal experience to make our points is not bragging...its nothing more than personal experience

Just as we have more points than most , we also have more experience than most and  I bet we have made more mistakes than most as well.  I would think that if you read what we are posting,  with a critical eye, our experience might teach you a thing or two..At least you wouldnt be tempted to repeat some of our mistakes.


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## lcml11 (Nov 25, 2012)

MFT said:


> Bazinga!  I still believe for the 95% Wyndham owners who use the points for their own use, and own less than 1 Mil points, VIP doesn't have financial advantages.  Now, the MEGA-renters is a totally different thing, and I'm not going to argue with Jim and Ron on those points.  But I am not a mega-renter...  I just like my 2 - 4 weeks of vacation a year.
> 
> BTW: I did up an excel tool this morning, and unless like Jim stated, you get into the multi-million points, the savings really don't kick in, but you have to remember to factor in an interest return on the amount you saved purchasing resale.
> 
> Always enjoy the debates, and am agreeing with all the various views, as it fits what they do or need with their ownership.



Does anyone know about what percent of owners are VIP?


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## MFT (Nov 25, 2012)

lcml11 said:


> Does anyone know about what percent of owners are VIP?



Interesting, as those that were original owners with over 300K points (prior to the change) would have had VIP.  But factor in all those with less than 300K, plus all the folks who bought resale and don't have VIP.  

Ron: Do you know if there's anything out there with that info?


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## bnoble (Nov 25, 2012)

The best chance of finding it might be in one of the presentations the executives periodically make to investors.  The ability to upsell current owners is a big piece of the company's financial strategy, and there may well be data given.


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## SOS8260456 (Nov 25, 2012)

I think no matter which way you look at it, business use or personal use, the key thing to remember is that those VIP benefits can and have been changed, limited and some taken away.  Not one of those benefits is guaranteed....other than having the word "platinum VIP" on my Wyndham account.

We got our VIP Plat before most of the loopholes were closed and we do enjoy not worrying about RTs, HK fees, and guest certificates for the most part (makes us think twice before "wasting" a free one for only 2 or 3 nights). 

Sandy brought up an interesting topic and I never really kept track of our actual numbers and I don't feel like going back and looking, but I also have started a spread sheet for calculating this stuff going forward (at least for 2013) because now I am curious about it.

One thing though, if owners want to stay at the new resorts during prime seasons, even for just a few weeks a year, those points can add up fast.


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## pacodemountainside (Nov 25, 2012)

I went to a Corporate owner update at Wyndham Hotel here in Denver a couple years ago.

Response was   they try  and keep  VIP around 15% permanent and 20% with temporary sales up grades

Was 1% Platinum, 3% Gold and 11% Silver.  New sales and  resales losing  more or less balanced out.

Obviously,  too many becomes worthless perk  and expensive for sales to pay for.

In my case I used to use RCI 28K deposits, now I am  using VIP and I gather many others are too putting more pressure on VIP availability!

I have asked Russel Cook, Controller of VOI Trust for  current info and he basically said trade secret, take  flying leap at a rolling donut.

Have reviewed stock touts  by Main Man and he has not mentioned. He does state  Sales makes about 6 times profit on upgrades and that is what is  being pushed.  $10 bounty to parking pass person a  lot cheaper than  a couple hundred for warm body off street!

IMO given that   around 25K new owners were being added   a year pre-recession   and last two just 4K,  sales cannot continue to pay some $12 million cash  plus developer inventory for VIP upgrades.

If Developer  gets around $170 cash for VIP can easily afford. However,  when  fixed weeks are converted, PICs  done and  foreclosures are dumped something has to give.

If one has  2 million VIP points and is getting 5 million  points  that means 3 million points at $5.00 or $15K out of sales pocket. Given that  average Wyndham sale to newbie is $17K and profit is 6% or  $1K+  they have to make 15 sales to just cover  one Platinum VIP. Something has to give.


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## jjmanthei05 (Nov 25, 2012)

pacodemountainside said:


> ... sales cannot continue to pay some $12 million cash  plus developer inventory for VIP upgrades.
> 
> If Developer  gets around $170 cash for VIP can easily afford. However,  when  fixed weeks are converted, PICs  done and  foreclosures are dumped something has to give.
> 
> If one has  2 million VIP points and is getting 5 million  points  that means 3 million points at $5.00 or $15K out of sales pocket. Given that  average Wyndham sale to newbie is $17K and profit is 6% or  $1K+  they have to make 15 sales to just cover  one Platinum VIP. Something has to give.



The extra points are included with that 12 million dollar cost. Also wyndhams sales last quarter did $300,000,000 in sales. So if they have to give up 1% to get 300 million in sales that doesn't seem like it's going to break the backs of Wyndham any time soon. Especailly with their new WAAM model where they don't have to put up any money for inventory. 

Jason


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## jjmanthei05 (Nov 25, 2012)

jjmanthei05 said:


> The extra points are included with that 12 million dollar cost. Also wyndhams sales last quarter did $300,000,000 in sales. So if they have to give up 1% to get 300 million in sales that doesn't seem like it's going to break the backs of Wyndham any time soon. Especailly with their new WAAM model where they don't have to put up any money for inventory.
> 
> Jason



Sorry just looked it up and in their last company filing it was 608 million in sales last quarter...

Jason


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## lcml11 (Nov 25, 2012)

pacodemountainside said:


> I went to a Corporate owner update at Wyndham Hotel here in Denver a couple years ago.
> 
> Response was   they try  and keep  VIP around 15% permanent and 20% with temporary sales up grades
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info.  With the resort specials open to everyone, the value of the Silver VIP benifit is seriously erroded, unless specific resorts and/or timeframes are needed.  That leaves the 4 pecent for Gold and Platinum plus the bonus points for new sales.


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## ronparise (Nov 25, 2012)

I dont think they have to...but someone does. If not sales; who?  

VIP is a sales perc, it only makes sense that the expense is to the sales budget


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## tschwa2 (Nov 25, 2012)

Although there is a line item in the budgets with payment from Wyndham for VIP benefits I personally doubt it covers 100% of additional cost in wear/tear/use from additional VIP upgrades, transactions, discounts, etc.  I think corporate decides how much they are going to contribute each year and owners (both VIP and non) make up the rest.  I also think that by collecting and raising fees (transfer, HK, transaction, GC, etc) they help pay for the VIP benefits.  

I wish Wyndham would publish a full disclosure to owners proving me wrong and showing VIP usage specifics at each resort.


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## pacodemountainside (Nov 25, 2012)

jjmanthei05 said:


> The extra points are included with that 12 million dollar cost. Also wyndhams sales last quarter did $300,000,000 in sales. So if they have to give up 1% to get 300 million in sales that doesn't seem like it's going to break the backs of Wyndham any time soon. Especailly with their new WAAM model where they don't have to put up any money for inventory.
> 
> Jason



You have no comprehension what you are talking about! I got my information from Russel Cook  on $12 million, where did you get yours?  Suggest you read audited Trust financials before running afoul of Abe Lincoln's  sage advice, better to remain silent  and be thought a fool and speak out and remove all doubt!

If you take  15% VIP owners  times  around 500K  Trust members that is 75K.

Divide 75K into $12 million and you get $160 per member. This could only cover   HK,  GCs, etc.   for Silver VIPs and all the other extras  Gold and Platinum get.

Hell, my Silver  points  discounts are over $300 a year.  Platinum with lots of resale   can run  over $10K.  Fearless forecast, Wyndham sales  will  stop allowing  VIPs resale  points  to get VIP benefits.

Money collected this  year goes to pay for Main Man's  salary, bonus, perks,  and dividends to stockholders.  VIP benefits are a DRAG on earnings until day of big fire or  more likely extermination.

Yes,  Main Man  stole a great concept from "The Donald". Put up your  name and  expertise  and let  the suckers put up the cash for bricks, sticks and mortar.

Is $608,000,000 just TSs  or all Corporate?


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## lcml11 (Nov 25, 2012)

pacodemountainside said:


> You have no comprehension what you are talking about! I got my information from Russel Cook  on $12 million, where did you get yours?  Suggest you read audited Trust financials before running afoul of Abe Lincoln's  sage advice, better to remain silent  and be thought a fool and speak out and remove all doubt!
> 
> If you take  15% VIP owners  times  around 500K  Trust members that is 75K.
> 
> ...



Not sure where the number came from, however, I did review the online audit statment for 2011.  My guess, the number would cover all of the Wyndham Vacation Ownership systems and not just Club Wyndham Plus/Access.  The numbers do not make since when I calucated the 608 million divided by the average sales price as reflect in an earlier post.  

The only re-imbursable fees from Wyndham for Club Wyndham Plus/Access resorts that I have heard of from Wyndham Staff are the newspaper and additional housekeeping costs if a week is broken up.  

There have been some indirect references that the soap, shampoo, popcorn, etc. my also be in that pot.  You may be right that something may have to give on the Coorporate Wyndham payments to the trust.  My last visit to Shawnee Village, the soaps were cut down to 2 bars.  Shampoos, handcreams, etc, were gone, the popcorn bag went by the way side, as is not uncommon, had to call for the newspaper, etc.


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## pacodemountainside (Nov 25, 2012)

robcrusoe said:


> Who says Sales has to pay for VIP benefits?




Are you serious?

Have you read  FVPUMT Trust Document of 1991 as amended?

Have you read audited Trust Fund Documents?

Have you read Club Wyndam Directory?

Have you read  purchase sales documents  that state VIP benefits are  sales perk that can be  exterminated at any time and  specifically excluded from Deeded  Benefits?


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## lcml11 (Nov 25, 2012)

pacodemountainside said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> Have you read  FVPUMT Trust Document of 1991 as amended?
> 
> ...



You listed four points but 5 ponders, was  there a point you witheld?


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## pacodemountainside (Nov 25, 2012)

lcml11 said:


> Not sure where the number came from, however, I did review the online audit statment for 2011.  My guess, the number would cover all of the Wyndham Vacation Ownership systems and not just Club Wyndham Plus/Access.  The numbers do not make since when I calucated the 608 million divided by the average sales price as reflect in an earlier post.
> 
> The only re-reimbursable fees from Wyndham for Club Wyndham Plus/Access resorts that I have heard of from Wyndham Staff are the newspaper and additional housekeeping costs if a week is broken up.
> 
> There have been some indirect references that the soap, shampoo, popcorn, etc. my also be in that pot.  You may be right that something may have to give on the Corporate Wyndham payments to the trust.  My last visit to Shawnee Village, the soaps were cut down to 2 bars.  Shampoos, handcreams, etc, were gone, the popcorn bag went by the way side, as is not uncommon, had to call for the newspaper, etc.



Suggest you review VIP benefits on  page 288, etc.  of Directory. Granted most really have no  verifiable cash value.  However, you will note Gold and Platinum do get lots of perks. Does the resort get USA Today free or do they bill  Trust say $5.00 bucks plus delivery charge, who knows.  Does sales pay for special VIP phone line  and check in counter  at resort? Who knows. Does sales reimburse  for VIPs using limo in Vegas? Who knows? That is why we have auditors who hopefully do their job!

Sales must pay for  VIPs getting free $49.50  PERKS Program.

As far  as toiletries,  I doubt being a VIP has anything to do with especially since many room assignments are made  at check-in.

There has been a major reduction in  free Wine and Cheese  welcome parties,  complimentary coffee in the lobby,  increasing resort activity fees,    reduction in stocking units with  all the good stuff. But,  this has nothing to do with  VIP.


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## pacodemountainside (Nov 25, 2012)

lcml11 said:


> You listed four points but 5 ponders, was  there a point you witheld?



As we say out West, you are  one tough hombre.

After Broncos clinched  playoff berth today had too many Margaritas and miscounted!


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## jjmanthei05 (Nov 25, 2012)

pacodemountainside said:


> You have no comprehension what you are talking about! I got my information from Russel Cook  on $12 million, where did you get yours?  Suggest you read audited Trust financials before running afoul of Abe Lincoln's  sage advice, better to remain silent  and be thought a fool and speak out and remove all doubt!
> 
> If you take  15% VIP owners  times  around 500K  Trust members that is 75K.
> 
> ...



I got mine off of wyndham corporates quarterly filings. The 608 million in sales is from wyndham vacation ownership. Total for the year so far is 1.679 billion (Vacation ownership only). I included the link below to wyndham's spreadsheet that shows the 2 numbers. They are on the first 2 tabs (last quarter and year to date). So based on your numbers of 12 million (it isn't broken out in their 10-k), do you honestly think 12 million is a "huge drain on Earnings"? You can't look at the number "wow 12 million is a lot of money." but as a percentage of overall sales. I like facts and go with them. I would guess there are a lot of platinum members who never use their points let alone figure out the system to cancel rebook, get rooms at 60 days ect. The people on this board are the cream of the crop when figuring out how to get the most out fo thier ownership. 99% of owners don't/can't use the system like we do here. 

Jason

http://www.wyndhamworldwide.com/docs/WYN-Earnings-Release-Q3-Final.xls


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## jjmanthei05 (Nov 25, 2012)

tschwa2 said:


> Although there is a line item in the budgets with payment from Wyndham for VIP benefits I personally doubt it covers 100% of additional cost in wear/tear/use from additional VIP upgrades, transactions, discounts, etc.  I think corporate decides how much they are going to contribute each year and owners (both VIP and non) make up the rest.  I also think that by collecting and raising fees (transfer, HK, transaction, GC, etc) they help pay for the VIP benefits.
> 
> I wish Wyndham would publish a full disclosure to owners proving me wrong and showing VIP usage specifics at each resort.



Are you suggesting they are cooking their books? Not showing full expense to show additional profit would put you in enron/worldcomm class and over what a few million dollars? I think the benefits are fully accounted for but they just aren't used that much. 

Jason


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## MFT (Nov 25, 2012)

From the Q3 2012 Earnings Press Release:

Vacation Ownership (Wyndham Vacation Ownership)
Revenues were $608 million in the third quarter of 2012, a 9% increase over the third quarter of 2011, primarily reflecting increased vacation ownership interest (VOI) sales. 
Gross VOI sales were $502 million in the third quarter of 2012, up 10% from the third quarter of 2011, primarily reflecting a 5% increase in both volume per guest and tour flow.
Adjusted EBITDA for the third quarter of 2012 was $155 million, a 4% increase compared with the third quarter of 2011.  The increase primarily reflects the revenue increases, partially offset by higher sales and marketing expenses related to the increase in VOI sales and higher intersegment licensing fees for use of the Wyndham brand trade name.


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## pacodemountainside (Nov 25, 2012)

MFT said:


> From the Q3 2012 Earnings Press Release:
> 
> Vacation Ownership (Wyndham Vacation Ownership)
> Revenues were $608 million in the third quarter of 2012, a 9% increase over the third quarter of 2011, primarily reflecting increased vacation ownership interest (VOI) sales.
> ...




How distressing! Obviously us 60K+  TUGGERs saving a few soles/souls is a drop in bucket.

Lets calculate ,  $502 million divided by average sale of  $117K  means  over 4K  unknowing victims got brutally  raped by sales weasels.

$60 a share stock, here we come!


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## lcml11 (Nov 25, 2012)

MFT said:


> From the Q3 2012 Earnings Press Release:
> 
> Vacation Ownership (Wyndham Vacation Ownership)
> Revenues were $608 million in the third quarter of 2012, a 9% increase over the third quarter of 2011, primarily reflecting increased vacation ownership interest (VOI) sales.
> ...



http://www.wyndhamworldwide.com/Portals/0/Investor Relations/2011 Annual Report on Form 10-K.pdf

Many names operate under the Wyndham Vacation Ownership banner.  The following is from the link above where they describe the business:

“We operate our vacation ownership business through our two primary brands, Wyndham Vacation Resorts and WorldMark by Wyndham. In October 1999, WorldMark by Wyndham formed Wyndham Vacation Resorts Asia Pacific Pty. Ltd., a New South Wales corporation, or Wyndham Asia Pacific, as its direct wholly owned subsidiary for the purpose of conducting sales, marketing and resort development activities in the South Pacific.  Wyndham Asia Pacific is currently the largest vacation ownership business in Australia.”  Wyndham Consumer Finance is also part of this group.

WorldMark, The Club and WorldMark South Pacific Club and Club Wyndham Plus get honorable mention.  Club Wyndham Plus shows  27,000 and 22,000 new owners during 2011 and 2010.  Club Wyndham Access is also part of this grouping.

The sales figures quoted probably reflect all of the activities of Wyndham Vacation Ownership.

Also, the report provides many different names, some identified some not as being part of the cluster.


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## bnoble (Nov 25, 2012)

> Obviously us 60K+ TUGGERs saving a few soles/souls is a drop in bucket.


This has always been true.  Personally, I've decided I don't care anymore.  If people want to spend their money, they are welcome to do so.


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## jjmanthei05 (Nov 25, 2012)

bnoble said:


> This has always been true.  Personally, I've decided I don't care anymore.  If people want to spend their money, they are welcome to do so.



The other thing to remember it is all of "those" people are what bring us the new resorts into the system. IF the aren't selling anything they aren't adding anything. 

Jason


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