# starwood flex questions



## scsu_hockey_fan (Nov 2, 2016)

I have a couple of questions about the history of the starwood flex program.

Do I understand this correctly? if a person were to buy into the flex program from the developer they can use star-options to stay at non-flex starwood resorts?  If so how is this legally possible because that would be crossing the trust/legacy boundary, right?

Did starwood have a points system in place before flex?  If so, im assuming the flex is the same set up regarding points required for a particular reservation? Transparent overlay?


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## DeniseM (Nov 2, 2016)

scsu_hockey_fan said:


> I have a couple of questions about the history of the starwood flex program.
> 
> Do I understand this correctly? if a person were to buy into the flex program from the developer they can use star-options to stay at non-flex starwood resorts?  If so how is this legally possible because that would be crossing the trust/legacy boundary, right?
> 
> Did starwood have a points system in place before flex?  If so, im assuming the flex is the same set up regarding points required for a particular reservation? Transparent overlay?



First question - who knows.  This would have to be challenged in court to get a legal answer, and that is a big undertaking.

2nd question - Yes, the Staroptions required to make reservations are the same whether you have Flexoptions, or conventional Staroptions.

Flexoptions become Staroptions when you use them outside your home resort.


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## scsu_hockey_fan (Nov 2, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> First question - who knows.  This would have to be challenged in court to get a legal answer, and that is a big undertaking.
> 
> 2nd question - Yes, the Staroptions required to make reservations are the same whether you have Flexoptions, or conventional Staroptions.
> 
> Flexoptions become Staroptions when you use them outside your home resort.



Thanks!

 Is it true though that a developer purchase of flex can reserve at non flex starwood resorts using star options?

I apologize I do not know the starwood system. I know the hyatt one and sounds like the new hyatt one might be similar to Sheraton flex. Speculation of course.


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## DeniseM (Nov 2, 2016)

scsu_hockey_fan said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Is it true though that a developer purchase of flex can reserve at non flex starwood resorts using star options?



Yes - they are treated just like Staroptions when an owner makes a reservation outside of his home resort.


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## scsu_hockey_fan (Nov 2, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> Yes - they are treated just like Staroptions when an owner maintermingledrvation outside of his home resort.



Ok thanks!

How does one know for sure then if the two buckets at a flex resort are combined or intermingled or not after the home preferance period is up. I would hope it would go both ways to be fair.


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## DeniseM (Nov 2, 2016)

scsu_hockey_fan said:


> Ok thanks!
> 
> How does one know for sure then if the two buckets at a flex resort are combined or intermingled or not after the home preferance period is up. I would hope it would go both ways to be fair.



Vistana (and Starwood before them) has no transparency, and they manipulate the inventory behind the scenes - so no one knows.

Example:  Last year when the reservation window opened for Staroption reservations in Hawaii, and Harborside, there was ZERO availability - literally not one reservation was available for the summer.

Then 2 mos. later, summer summer inventory was suddenly dumped in.

At the time, Starwood simply denied that it happened.


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## okwiater (Nov 2, 2016)

scsu_hockey_fan said:


> Do I understand this correctly? if a person were to buy into the flex program from the developer they can use star-options to stay at non-flex starwood resorts?  If so how is this legally possible because that would be crossing the trust/legacy boundary, right?



I must be misunderstanding something. Why would this possibly not be legal? Doesn't the SVN Operator (i.e. Vistana) reserve the absolute right to allow deeds into the SVN?


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## SMHarman (Nov 3, 2016)

scsu_hockey_fan said:


> Ok thanks!
> 
> How does one know for sure then if the two buckets at a flex resort are combined or intermingled or not after the home preferance period is up. I would hope it would go both ways to be fair.


 the trustees of the trusts would be probably breaking the law or if they allowed such things, unless that was allowed in the trust documents which I don't believe it is


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## SMHarman (Nov 3, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> Vistana (and Starwood before them) has no transparency, and they manipulate the inventory behind the scenes - so no one knows.
> 
> Example:  Last year when the reservation window opened for Staroption reservations in Hawaii, and Harborside, there was ZERO availability - literally not one reservation was available for the summer.
> 
> ...


In this scenario Starwood does need to balance the number of known owners not in svn that and have not booked their deeded color against dropping the excess inventory into staroptions


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## bizaro86 (Nov 3, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> the trustees of the trusts would be probably breaking the law or if they allowed such things, unless that was allowed in the trust documents which I don't believe it is



I think SVN acts as an exchange company, and the flex trust trades its inventory with the exchange company (at staroption value) for what it needs.


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## okwiater (Nov 3, 2016)

scsu_hockey_fan said:


> How does one know for sure then if the two buckets at a flex resort are combined or intermingled or not after the home preferance period is up. I would hope it would go both ways to be fair.



Proof. A 3-bedroom lockoff for next Labor Day is available only through SVN beginning at 8 months, not through Flex at 12 months.


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## DeniseM (Nov 3, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> In this scenario Starwood does need to balance the number of known *owners not in svn* that and have not their deeded color against dropping the excess inventory into staroptions



I think you may have some typos here, but ALL Maui owners are in the SVN.  So at 8 months, the Home Resort Reservation period ends for all owners, and anything that is unreserved  (that hasn't been turned in for Starpoints, etc.) should be available for Staroption exchanges - not 2 months later.


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## tschwa2 (Nov 3, 2016)

okwiater said:


> Proof. A 3-bedroom lockoff for next Labor Day is available only through SVN beginning at 8 months, not through Flex at 12 months.



My guess is that Vistana favors SVN.  I see the same thing with home resort availability at SBP (both phases) vs SVN.  They pick out units that will be available to SVN at 8 months that might be desirable for home week owners.

The best advice is to reserve as early as possible with Flex, deeded non svn home weeks and even with SVN eligible deeded week owners.


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## maph (Nov 3, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> I think you may have some typos here, but ALL Maui owners are in the SVN.  So at 8 months, the Home Resort Reservation period ends for all owners, and anything that is unreserved  (that hasn't been turned in for Starpoints, etc.) should be available for Staroption exchanges - not 2 months later.



Couldn't it also be that someone with a home resort reservation cancelled it with less than 8 months to go, in which case the units would become available for a Staroptions booking?


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## DeniseM (Nov 3, 2016)

maph said:


> Couldn't it also be that someone with a home resort reservation cancelled it with less than 8 months to go, in which the units would become available for a Staroptions booking?



No - At 8 months there was ZERO availability, and then many weeks at HRA and Maui were all dumped in on the same day.  It was clearly Starwood holding back inventory for 2 mos.


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## tschwa2 (Nov 3, 2016)

But that example (Harborside summer 2016) wasn't normal operating procedure.  I don't think it was even intentional.They were taking some units out for maintenance but the whole kit and caboodle disappeared.  I think it was some kind of computer glitch and 90%+ of the SVN employees really had no idea what happened to the inventory.


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## scsu_hockey_fan (Nov 3, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> No - At 8 months there was ZERO availability, and then many weeks at HRA and Maui were all dumped in on the same day.  It was clearly Starwood holding back inventory for 2 mos.



With Hyatt it is 6 months ahead when the home preference period ends. 

Maybe they were testing technical changes to the program that are coming? Pure speculation. There is speculation on Hyatt discussion board that the new hyatt program is going to be similar to starwood flex and potentially include some starwood resorts? One of the posts cites a interval earnings call containing the information. Again pure speculation and wont know until the new hyatt system launches in 2017.


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## tschwa2 (Nov 3, 2016)

Wyndham has a program where direct purchase Wyndham and Wordmark can book into each others inventory for an exchange fee a few months after the club period opens for owners in the respective clubs.  If it were modeled on that similar program it would open up around 5 months prior to check in and would exclude resale Hyatt and mandatory resale SVN owners.  It wouldn't take high inventory out of either club since it had been sitting in available inventory for 1 month for Hyatt and 3 months for SVN.  It's also a selling point for buying direct for both clubs.


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## okwiater (Nov 3, 2016)

tschwa2 said:


> My guess is that Vistana favors SVN.  I see the same thing with home resort availability at SBP (both phases) vs SVN.  They pick out units that will be available to SVN at 8 months that might be desirable for home week owners.



I don't think so. There are only certain deeds within the Flex trust and only those deeds' usage rights can be reserved with Flex HomeOptions.


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## SMHarman (Nov 3, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> I think you may have some typos here, but ALL Maui owners are in the SVN.  So at 8 months, the Home Resort Reservation period ends for all owners, and anything that is unreserved  (that hasn't been turned in for Starpoints, etc.) should be available for Staroption exchanges - not 2 months later.


Yes the word booked is missing from my post. 

Maui older phases are an exception. 

Take a voluntary resort. If you tipped the entire inventory into svn at 8 months what happens to the deed owner that goes to book at 6 months. If I was resource planning here, there would be a hold back to account for some of that forgetful customer base.


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## Scott&Laura (Nov 3, 2016)

Do I understand this correctly? if a person were to buy into the flex program from the developer they can use star-options to stay at non-flex starwood resorts? If so how is this legally possible because that would be crossing the trust/legacy boundary, right?


_*My Answer:  I personally have not read the Trust and legal incorporation. However I did talk to a Starwood salesman  who told me that only certain properties of the Sheraton system could be used in the FLEX program due to issues with how the properties were originally legally incorporated or created.*_

Did starwood have a points system in place before flex? If so, im assuming the flex is the same set up regarding points required for a particular reservation? Transparent overlay?

*My Answer: Starwood had an extremely good points program. Starwood points are worth 3.7 times a Marriott point.  Keep in mind options are the inter-company currency in SVN system. i.e. In U.S. and territories dollar is used as currency—in SVN Staroptions are used.   StarPoints are used as currency to exchange in the Hotel system a different entity than SVN that now incoporates Marriott hotels.  However Marriott is talking 3.7 Starpoints for  only 3 Marriott points  meaning you will lose 23% of your value by switching Starwood to Marriott points. However as a practical reality Starwood occupies big cities and Marriott can be found in little towns. We stay in Marriotts when we go to National parks or scenic locations away from cities so for us a room in a big city is not worth more than a room where we want to be in the Wilds of Canada and America.
*

Scott


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## dioxide45 (Nov 3, 2016)

The flex trust is no different than any other stand alone resort. They just happen to hold many weeks from several properties. They have the same rights as any other property in the network. If the trust were illegal, so would every other property accessing VSN.


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## DeniseM (Nov 3, 2016)

Clarification:

You can reserve ALL Vistana timeshare resorts with Flexoptions, which become Staroptions when used to make non-home resort reservations, at 8 mos. before check-in.

This thread is about Staroptions, "timeshare points," but since Starwood Hotel Points were brought up:

1 Starpoint (Starwood *hotel* point) = 3 Marriott *Hotel* Points.

This has been documented by Marriott in published announcements, and widely discussed on TUG.​
More Info:  http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246519


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## DeniseM (Nov 3, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> Yes the word booked is missing from my post.
> 
> Maui older phases are an exception.
> 
> Take a voluntary resort. If you tipped the entire inventory into svn at 8 months what happens to the deed owner that goes to book at 6 months. If I was resource planning here, there would be a hold back to account for some of that forgetful customer base.



Clarification:  My post was only about Maui and HRA - I didn't see inventory held back at other resorts.


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## lizap (Nov 3, 2016)

This unfounded speculation about Hyatt has been going on for over a year, most likely started by salespeople who will say anything to try to make a sale.





scsu_hockey_fan said:


> With Hyatt it is 6 months ahead when the home preference period ends.
> 
> Maybe they were testing technical changes to the program that are coming? Pure speculation. There is speculation on Hyatt discussion board that the new hyatt program is going to be similar to starwood flex and potentially include some starwood resorts? One of the posts cites a interval earnings call containing the information. Again pure speculation and wont know until the new hyatt system launches in 2017.


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## vistana101 (Nov 4, 2016)

Just a note about the Hyatt speculation...I took a look at the most recent Interval earnings call, and someone asked them about their process of moving Hyatt to a points based system. Part of Interval's answer included, "The closing with
Vistana is helpful, their Sheraton Flex is very similar to what we are going to be doing with HVO." 

So it appears the Hyatt program will be similar, although there is no indication that Starwood resorts will be added.


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## lizap (Nov 5, 2016)

We already have a points-based system.



vistana101 said:


> Just a note about the Hyatt speculation...I took a look at the most recent Interval earnings call, and someone asked them about their process of moving Hyatt to a points based system. Part of Interval's answer included, "The closing with
> Vistana is helpful, their Sheraton Flex is very similar to what we are going to be doing with HVO."
> 
> So it appears the Hyatt program will be similar, although there is no indication that Starwood resorts will be added.


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## vistana101 (Nov 5, 2016)

lizap said:


> We already have a points-based system.



Yes, this would be a system more similar to that of Sheraton Flex!


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## tschwa2 (Nov 5, 2016)

okwiater said:


> I don't think so. There are only certain deeds within the Flex trust and only those deeds' usage rights can be reserved with Flex HomeOptions.



Yes but every Flex owner who is also an SVN member who ultimately reserves through SVN, gives those points to Vistana to deposit into SVN.  Vistana can and does use historical use data to determine how many points/weeks that is and at 12 months or even prior can pick out weeks/portion of weeks and decide that at 8 months those cherry picked weeks will be available for booking through SVN.  They can do the same with II weeks and pick out weeks before home booking becomes available and deposit them with II based on how many flex points they anticipate will exchange with II during the year.  This would be applicable to RCI if flex owners can exchange through RCI.  (I know some of the deeds within Flex like SBP are eligible for RCI but I don't know if the trust owners have an option of using RCI.)


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## lizap (Nov 5, 2016)

II can do what it wants to do.  At this point this is pure speculation, which has been going on for quite some time now.




vistana101 said:


> Yes, this would be a system more similar to that of Sheraton Flex!


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## okwiater (Nov 5, 2016)

tschwa2 said:


> Yes but every Flex owner who is also an SVN member who ultimately reserves through SVN, gives those points to Vistana to deposit into SVN.  Vistana can and does use historical use data to determine how many points/weeks that is and at 12 months or even prior can pick out weeks/portion of weeks and decide that at 8 months those cherry picked weeks will be available for booking through SVN.  They can do the same with II weeks and pick out weeks before home booking becomes available and deposit them with II based on how many flex points they anticipate will exchange with II during the year.  This would be applicable to RCI if flex owners can exchange through RCI.  (I know some of the deeds within Flex like SBP are eligible for RCI but I don't know if the trust owners have an option of using RCI.)



It's no secret that Vistana can and does "forecast" demand and proactively "deposit" weeks into each system to ensure they are distributed in an appropriate way. That said, I wasn't refuting that point.

My point was refuting the idea that Vistana can give Flex owners access to villas PRIOR to 8 months that aren't backed by a deed in the Flex pool. That suggestion was made earlier in the thread but it's not borne out either by legality or my anecdotal observations of availability in the Villa Finder.


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## tschwa2 (Nov 5, 2016)

okwiater said:


> It's no secret that Vistana can and does "forecast" demand and proactively "deposit" weeks into each system to ensure they are distributed in an appropriate way. That said, I wasn't refuting that point.
> 
> My point was refuting the idea that Vistana can give Flex owners access to villas PRIOR to 8 months that aren't backed by a deed in the Flex pool. That suggestion was made earlier in the thread but it's not borne out either by legality or my anecdotal observations of availability in the Villa Finder.



My point was Vistana favors what will benefit SVN over what will benefit home week owners.

They can't make Flex weeks available earlier but they can show that that week would be available on x date if you are booking with SVN points and show it not available today as a home resort reservation for flex owners using the Villa Finder.  They can make it available earlier to II owners but generally Vistana does not cherry pick the better weeks so it isn't as much of an issue- just annoying that exchange members can exchange in before home resort owners.

But yes the reverse seems to not be true, Vistana does not pull out additional weeks for flex owners during the home preference period.  I do not know how they determine which weeks to make available for flex owners of float weeks.  Lets say they own 10 units in the trust for 3 br SBP Palmetto that floats 24-35.  Flex owners would be eligible for 10 total weeks in that type of unit during home week reservations but which 10. Do they go by the deeded week for each (even though they are eligible for any week) do they use a single week for each 10 out of the 12 weeks, or something else of course subtracting for anticipating use in SVN and II.


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## Captron (Nov 22, 2016)

This provides some of the reason (besides a sale) for the heavy push to the flex program at this week's "update". They seem to be trying very hard to get more weeks into the trust to increase availability for trust members. Thanks to this forum they did not tell me anything I did not know at the update. I was better than the first two sales people/managers they gave me and was equal at least to the third.  In fact, they could not answer most of the questions I threw at them. (Like how flex program would increase my likelihood of getting into HRA and WSJ [their claim]) Instead, they talked around these questions like a politician hoping I forgot the original question. After asking the third time I stopped trying.


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## DagnyT (Nov 23, 2016)

Hi all, New to this forum--wish I'd found it awhile ago. Anyway, did our owner update today while visiting Steamboat and for now have been talked into going Flex. But I'm rethinking it.

My main issue--I am giving up deeded weeks at Westin Princeville and Sheraton Mtn Vista for this Flex system which seems to be based just on points and a nebulous deed across 6 properties. Basically it feels like I'm giving up something tangible for something intangible. If that makes sense. The arguments:

1. Hawaii maintenance fees are only going to keep growing. Ours have gone up about $500 in 5 years.
2. We don't go to Hawaii every year, so the home resort benefit isn't one we're using.
3. In addition to Steamboat now being Flex sometime in 2017 the new Sheraton Poipu will also go into Flex.

But this whole thing is an "upgrade" right, so we're actually upping our option total and therefore paying more.

Logged into my account at vistana tonight to find three very interesting things:

1. My reservation for Princeville next May, which was supposed to be protected appears to be gone.
2. The handful of options I had left for 2016 (9500 or so) has completely disappeared.
3. The ONLY resorts I can see to book are the Flex ones. I don't even have the options to search the others.

Generally I'm not wishy washy, but I may have to rescind this.


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## Helios (Nov 23, 2016)

I would recommend you rescind.  Sell Princeville if you don't like the MFs and buy Flex resale.

Either way, I would stay on top of them to get things straighten out.  I went through 2 upgrades (with the purposes of exchanging VOIs, requalifing VOIs, and getting new VOIs) to get 5* Elite and experienced weird changes in my account similar to what you are reporting.  It took a couple of weeks for the process to get completed and for my account to go back to normal.


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## Captron (Nov 25, 2016)

Interesting that I was at a SVR update Monday and had no mention of Poipu. Did you see any solid documentation to back up this statement? I would be surprised if it was accurate as they seemed to be pulling out all the stops in their efforts with me. I even asked for unofficial information and this was not mentioned. I would not trust it unless I see it in writing on some official document. "How can you tell a salesperson is lying..."
If I were you I would rescind. (FWIW, I did not "upgrade")


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## Helios (Nov 25, 2016)

For whatever it's worth, I was told at WSJ that Poipu will be part of the Flex product.  I did not see it in writing.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 25, 2016)

It would make sense for them to add Poipu to the flex program. It might actually make what is a poorly conceived product somewhat desirable. They can sell it based on access to Hawaii. However, everyone will buy in with hopes in going to Hawaii, making getting a reservation almost impossible for anyone except flex owners. Even those with StarOptions would be sjut out at 8 months as all the other flex owners would have it booked solid.

However, can they perhaps sell it higher as a standalone property vs bundling it in the Sheraton Flex Trust?


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## DeniseM (Nov 25, 2016)

I think it would make more sense to put Poipu and Nanea in the same program.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 25, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> I think it would make more sense to put Poipu and Nanea in the same program.


That might make sense, but I don't see them doing that unless they brand Poipu as a Westin property. I don't think they are planning on doing that.


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## canesfan (Nov 26, 2016)

I don't see them branding the HI properties together since one is Westin and the other Sheraton. But I do question if they would do a separate Sheraton Hawaii flex keeping Poipu alone from the other properties than the others. Kind of like Nanea is on its own. As well as St. John is on its own. More of a high end /location properties category. So far they haven't always done the expected when it's come to the Flex program. I.E. Putting St. John & Nanea together into a Westin Flex. Just food for thought and not believing the sales person at their word.


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## DagnyT (Nov 27, 2016)

I definitely didn't see anything in writing to back up Poipu. But more than one rep said it to us. And said they were 95% sure it would go into Flex.

I was wondering -- what, exactly, are the Westin folks selling? It occurred to me I hadn't actually been anywhere but a Sheraton in the last 2 years. If you go to the Westin, what are they pushing?

This said, owning Princeville, I have been to the hotel at Poipu-- 2-3 years ago when it was undergoing a desperately needed renovation. It needs a TON of work. Like 2 years worth of work. As a hotel it was not OK. Old, crappy, in kind of a weird space. Saw a sea lion on their beach once, which was great. And they had a nice outdoor area and a great fire pit. But that was about it. But if you're staying on Kauai and want to explore the south portion of the island it's a decent location because that's a long haul from Princeville on a day trip. (Especially on island time.) Because the roads don't go through, it's really the only way to see some of the stuff over there. And at certain points of the year, all the cruises to the Napali Coast go from that side. 

Thanks for the advice--we did end up rescinding. Looking at the secondary market, I figure I can pick up some Flex if I really want. But I am in a decent space where I am. Steamboat was a great property. I would definitely go back. Stayed in the 3-bedroom unit there and it is amazing--more like a condo because it's not lockoffs. The hotel portion, though, is being converted and will be lockoffs. The studio portions are tiny--really like extra bedrooms without secondary living space--and with 2 beds. So geared toward families with kids. Took a look at the conversion and it's nice, but not as good as the existing units in the original Morningside tower.

Side note--we did Thanksgiving week, which was great because it was only about 80000 in options, whereas next week is not shoulder season and the option price doubles. Not as much snow, but enough to ski 2-3 days, so not a bad consideration for off-peak timing.


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## DeniseM (Nov 27, 2016)

Westin is primarily selling Westin Nanea Ocean Resort Villas and Westin St. John - Home Options.  

They also sell deeded timeshares at the older resorts that they have taken back in a variety of ways.

You most likely saw a Monk Seal on the beach in front of the resort.


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## DagnyT (Nov 27, 2016)

Excellent, thanks Denise. Monk seal! I miss Hawaii...

I did wonder if this whole thing was basically a way to take back inventory by upgrading people into Flex and then re-selling it at current prices and that seems to be what they're doing. How sustainable is that in the long-term for Westin though? Which is to say, what are they going to do after they finish Nanea and the new WSJ inventory? Not sure Westin Flex idea works because they don't have what Sheraton has for Flex--resorts like Orlando with massive, massive amounts of space. I feel better about hanging on to my current position.


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## Markus (Nov 27, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> Westin is primarily selling Westin Nanea Ocean Resort Villas and Westin St. John - Home Options.
> 
> They also sell deeded timeshares at the older resorts that they have taken back in a variety of ways.
> 
> You most likely saw a Monk Seal on the beach in front of the resort.


Also selling Westin Desert Willow. They are still building on the property.

Markus


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