# New Buyer: Weeks or Points?



## Password is taco (Jul 26, 2015)

New to timeshares (owning not using) and getting up to speed on the different options.  So far I think I like Marriott based on the number, variety an quality of locations they have.  

So my question, for the experienced owners, is if you were buying into Marriott today, starting from zero, would you buy weeks or points?  Based on my poking around this forum, points for an equivalent week is much more expensive but weeks are becoming less valuable from a flexibility perspective with the growth of the points program.  

For example, if I wanted to buy a week at Newport Coast, 2 bedroom platinum week, the upfront cost (based on ROFR metric) would be about $8000.  The equivalent point contract would require 3,475 points and would cost about $34,750.  If I'm reading correctly, the annual maintenance and other fees would be significantly higher for points as well.  Am I understanding this correctly?

I'm still learning, but to me the points system make no sense at all from a financial perspective.  On the other had, I don't want to buy into the weeks system if I'm not going to be able to use it effectively for trading and what not.


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## davidvel (Jul 26, 2015)

Password is taco said:


> New to timeshares (owning not using) and getting up to speed on the different options.  So far I think I like Marriott based on the number, variety an quality of locations they have.
> 
> So my question, for the experienced owners, is if you were buying into Marriott today, starting from zero, would you buy weeks or points?  Based on my poking around this forum, points for an equivalent week is much more expensive but weeks are becoming less valuable from a flexibility perspective with the growth of the points program.
> 
> ...


Other than the fact that there's no real evidence that the points system has materially affected trading, I think you've summed it up quite well: Its next to impossible to economically justify buying points.


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## jont (Jul 26, 2015)

davidvel said:


> Other than the fact that there's no real evidence that the points system has materially affected trading, I think you've summed it up quite well: Its next to impossible to economically justify buying points.



My advice would be to buy a week at a resort would go to at least every other year. A platinum Newport Coast should be a good trader, but keep in mind that their platinum season is very long and that competition for obtaining a ressie for a prime summer week, from what has been reported here, is fierce. good luck with your decision.


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## jcjl1 (Jul 26, 2015)

*Not on Resale Points Market*



Password is taco said:


> For example, if I wanted to buy a week at Newport Coast, 2 bedroom platinum week, the upfront cost (based on ROFR metric) would be about $8000.  The equivalent point contract would require 3,475 points and would cost about $34,750.



You should be able to purchase resale points for about half that, all in..  No restrictions except you must buy in intervals called interests and pay the junk fees.  Plenty of info on this board.


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## Password is taco (Jul 26, 2015)

jcjl1 said:


> You should be able to purchase resale points for about half that, all in..  No restrictions except you must buy in intervals called interests and pay the junk fees.  Plenty of info on this board.



Even at half of that (~$17,000) is way more than the purchase of the equivalent week.  Not to mention higher annual/maintenance costs.  Maybe there is some additional value for the additional cost?  I'm hoping to learn what that is.  Also hoping to learn if there are any downsides to owning the week vs owning the points?


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## Password is taco (Jul 26, 2015)

jont said:


> My advice would be to buy a week at a resort would go to at least every other year. A platinum Newport Coast should be a good trader, but keep in mind that their platinum season is very long and that competition for obtaining a ressie for a prime summer week, from what has been reported here, is fierce. good luck with your decision.



Thank you, great advice.

And, Dude, sorry about your rug.  It really tied the room together.


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## Password is taco (Jul 26, 2015)

davidvel said:


> Other than the fact that there's no real evidence that the points system has materially affected trading, I think you've summed it up quite well: Its next to impossible to economically justify buying points.



Good to know.  I thought I had heard trading was a bit harder due to reduced inventory, but maybe that hasn't been proven out.


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## ecwinch (Jul 26, 2015)

I heard that during the sales presentation also. Seems like it will only happen when MVCI stops making bulk deposits into II, which as of yet has not happened.


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## jont (Jul 26, 2015)

Password is taco said:


> Good to know.  I thought I had heard trading was a bit harder due to reduced inventory, but maybe that hasn't been proven out.



it really tied the room together!


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## jont (Jul 26, 2015)

jont said:


> it really tied the room together!



oops, wrong post. one too many caucasians.


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## CCR (Jul 26, 2015)

I own weeks. I have found that buying a lock out unit is great for trading. My gold season Mountainside has been a great trader pulling Hawaii, NCV, Aruba, etc.  Availability in Interval is still good for trading (but school holidays can be a challenge at high demand resorts. I also own NCV and I'm sure that unit could pull some great trades but prefer to use the lock out unit instead in order to get 2 trades (or more) for 1 year of maintenance fees. If you can pick up points on resale that are affordable I do think the Marriott points are very flexible and owners are liking it. 

For now I'm happy with my weeks but if Marriott ever offered to let resale owners convert over to points again, I'd definitely consider it.


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## JIMinNC (Jul 26, 2015)

Why not both weeks and points?

With a bundled package of a resale week from Marriott Resales and a matching point purchase, you can minimize the number of Trust points you have to buy and drive the blended cost of legacy and Trust points down to around $7 per point. You then get to play in both the weeks and points systems.

Yes, the cost will still be higher than a pure resale weeks purchase, but the real question then becomes what value do you place on the greater flexibility and options that points offer? If shorter stays of less than 7 nights are important, or the ability to book different unit sizes, views, and seasons depending upon your needs for a specific trip, then weeks can't really do that. We are happy owners of a bundled package and love the flexibility of points. See this post in another thread:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1782234&postcount=8

We love our points, but will also try some II up-trades with our week that came with the package. We think the flexibility was well worth the higher price.

But if you are content with 7 night trips, usually book the same unit size in the same season, and/or are content playing the II trading game, then resale weeks will certainly get you in at a lower price point.


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## JIMinNC (Jul 26, 2015)

davidvel said:


> Its next to impossible to economically justify buying points.



I disagree. Depending on your needs, and if you use your points wisely, there is significant value in the increased flexibility of points. A couple examples:

-- The 4 night trip I have booked in Hilton Head at Harbour Point for next April during the Heritage PGA week could not have been booked at all with Weeks, but only took 650 points (MF or point rental cost of around $300 or so). Booking that same 4 nights on Marriott.com would have cost around $1500.

-- Our week in Maui next summer in an oceanfront 2BR cost us two years worth of enrolled and Trust points (MF cost of about $2000 per week for a total cost of $4000). I suspect an oceanfront view is unlikely with an II trade, and I've never even seen a 2BR oceanfront for rent on Marriott.com. But other 2BR oceanfront condos in the Kaanapali Resort rent for a minimum of $800 a night, so that is still a significant savings on renting. (I know rentals can be had on Redweek for much less, but renting direct from an owner is not something I am particularly comfortable doing).

The savings from just these two examples recoup almost $3000 of our upfront purchase costs.


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## mjm1 (Jul 26, 2015)

For someone just starting out, I like the idea mentioned earlier of buying a package with a traditional unit and points. That provides a nice balance and flexibility.

As noted often on TUG the OP really needs to think about how they like to vacation now and how that could change in the future. We started out vacationing with our kids, so having a 2BR. Now my DW and I vacation by ourselves and take advantage of a more flexible ownership portfolio.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

Mike


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## davidvel (Jul 26, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> I disagree. Depending on your needs, and if you use your points wisely, there is significant value in the increased flexibility of points. A couple examples:
> 
> -- The 4 night trip I have booked in Hilton Head at Harbour Point for next April during the Heritage PGA week could not have been booked at all with Weeks, but only took 650 points (MF or point rental cost of around $300 or so). Booking that same 4 nights on Marriott.com would have cost around $1500.
> 
> ...


I understand you have 3375 points (trust and banked) that you said you bought at $7/point. It took two weeks(years) of these points to get your Maui 2BR OF. Upfront cost was 7x3375=23,625. Annual MF for both weeks is appx. 2K.

So assuming 20 years for upfront= $23,625/20=1,181/yr
+ annual MF=2,000
=3,181
x 2 years usage=$6,362 or $908 per night for your OF at Marriott. 
I'm not good at math so correct me if it missed something.


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## JIMinNC (Jul 27, 2015)

davidvel said:


> What was your total buy-in for your hybrid purchase? And what are your annual MF? This will answer the question.



Buy in was around $23K for 3375 points; annual MF on week and points about $2K.

The key is maximizing the value of what you book - use points where they work best and weeks where they work best. For example as I noted above, utilizing the flexibility of points to squeeze multiple weeks or many shorter stays out of the points; or alternatively to combine weeks/points from multiple years to book something that would be difficult or impossible to book via trade or by rental for anything close to the MF cost. 

For trips where the point cost/value is less, we can opt to revert to the weeks approach. Because the week we bought with our package is a Silver HHI week, the MF/point cost of that week by itself is not too attractive. As a result, going forward, we will likely wind up using that week in the Weeks system more often than we elect points (and just rent the points we need to replace them at lower MF/point cost). If we can reliably trade that Silver HHI week for Gold HHI (as we understand many Tuggers do), then our $1200 MF on that week would get us a Spring/Fall HHI week that would normally cost us $2500 to $3000/week if we were to rent the same accommodations. If we get lucky and snag one of those late May/early June Gold weeks at Grande Ocean, the value of the accommodations rises to over $4000.

The $3K or so in lodging savings from the two trips I noted in the previous post were net of maintenance fees, so that goes directly to beginning to recoup the up front costs. Future savings from other points or weeks bookings will continue to contribute to that "pay down". If we use our ownership smartly, I think it will be possible to recoup 100% of our initial investment within 10-12 years or so.


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## JIMinNC (Jul 27, 2015)

davidvel said:


> I understand you have 3375 points (trust and banked) that you said you bought at $7/point. It took two weeks(years) of these points to get your Maui 2BR OF. Upfront cost was 7x3375=23,625. Annual MF for both weeks is appx. 2K.
> 
> So assuming 20 years for upfront= $23,625/20=1,181/yr
> + annual MF=2,000
> ...



No argument with the math, but here is a little more color... 

I should note that our MF cost per point is as high as $2K only because the Silver week we own is not an efficient point generator (1625 points for a $1190 MF). As I said just above, in the future we will likely keep this week as an offseason trader in the weeks system and rent points to add to our Trust points for major trips like Maui. 

So that $908 you calculated is somewhat overdone because this one time we just opted to use our legacy points since we decided to elect the first two years so we could "exercise" the system a bit before doing point rentals. We also had 750 purchase incentive points that allowed us to grab the OF without dipping into 2017 points. So while your numbers are correct for our 2016 Maui stay, they overstate the real cost we would incur for points reservations going forward.

The Silver week itself only cost us $3300, so I would guess that after two Weeks trades for HHI Gold season (as noted in the post just above), we will be close to fully recouping that upfront cost. I would expect that to occur in 2017 and 2018.

Our 1750 Trust points cost us a little over $19K and annually cost us $0.475/pt in MF (2015). Point rentals will likely cost us about the same as MF but with no upfront cost .

So if you assume that the Silver Week will be "paid for" going forward by weeks trades, and we redo your numbers to consider only the cost and MF on the Trust points and any supplemental Point rentals, the new numbers for cost become:

-- 20 years amortization for upfront points cost = $19,700/20=$985/yr
-- Plus Annual MF on Trust points = $831
-- Total Annual cost of owned points = $1816

x 2 years usage (3500 points) = $3632

Plus rental of 3950 points @$0.48 to book 2BR OF (requires 7450 points): $1,896

Total cost of $5528 or $789/night for a 2BR OF at MOC

Now some examples of high season rental rates at Maui Ocean Club and other Kaanapali condos:

-- 2BR Gardenview Lahaina/Napili Villas $889/nt plus taxes - $1000/night all in
-- 1BR Gardenview Old MOC $599/night plus taxes - $684/night all in
-- 2BR Oceanfront next door at Kaanapali Alii - $1100/night plus taxes, about $1200 all in

Given these prices, even the $908 "all-in" you calculated is probably still a savings over what 2BR oceanfront accommodations in MOC would cost us in 2016 (I've never seen a 2BR OF in the original section in high season on marriott.com, though). But just looking at using pure Trust or rented points, the $789 is a significant savings over renting similar accommodations.

Then, factor in short stays like the PGA golf week in HHI where our direct cost is only about $80/night (not sure how to allocate the upfront purchase cost here since depending upon season, our Trust points can get us 10-12 days at HP) vs over $350 a night for a cash stay at the same property. 

So as I look at it, if you buy a minimal number of Trust points to get into the system and then complete the "funding" of your trips with rented points, the economics of the points system can be very, very attractive.


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## chrono88 (Jul 27, 2015)

For the flexibility points offer, we have been contemplating purchasing the minimum 1500 points resale and renting the rest of the points that we would want for any given year. That seems to be the most economical way, in my view, because the upfront cost is lower than any bundle package.


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## jcjl1 (Jul 27, 2015)

*Great Plan!*



chrono88 said:


> For the flexibility points offer, we have been contemplating purchasing the minimum 1500 points resale and renting the rest of the points that we would want for any given year. That seems to be the most economical way, in my view, because the upfront cost is lower than any bundle package.



Bingo!  A great, flexible option for a newbie!


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## Fasttr (Jul 27, 2015)

I agree with JIMinNC's DC program flexibility arguments, but the way I see it, the only argument one can effectively make where the points program comes financially closer to the weeks program is in its scalability, which is due to the  ability to rent additional points.

When using the concept posted by chrono88 in post 18, that of purchasing 1500 points and renting the rest, at some point in the scalability of your usage...perhaps 4 week?, 6 weeks?...it certainly depends on the situation, but certainly "somewhere", the fact that in order to gain access to those additional weeks via the DC, you don't have to pay anything more in upfront costs becomes an advantage.  I am of course making an assumption that the cost to rent the points is reasonably similar to the MF's one would have had to pay if they owned the extra weeks (I realize the MF's on the points is a bit higher....but not crazily so).  The argument is that I can get at those weeks without having to pay another $2K, $4K, $8K per week (or whatever) in upfront costs to add the weeks.  

Totally agree, if one week is your ultimate target....its hard to argue the financial soundness of the pure points play.  But for multiple weeks, at some point, the value does come closer to the pure weeks play.

And of course....if you are buying the 1500 points via the resale market, it makes it even a bit more viable of an argument.


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## JIMinNC (Jul 27, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> I agree with JIMinNC's DC program flexibility arguments, but the way I see it, the only argument one can effectively make where the points program comes financially closer to the weeks program is in its scalability, which is due to the  ability to rent additional points.
> 
> When using the concept posted by chrono88 in post 18, that of purchasing 1500 points and renting the rest, at some point in the scalability of your usage...perhaps 4 week?, 6 weeks?...it certainly depends on the situation, but certainly "somewhere", the fact that in order to gain access to those additional weeks via the DC, you don't have to pay anything more in upfront costs becomes an advantage.  I am of course making an assumption that the cost to rent the points is reasonably similar to the MF's one would have had to pay if they owned the extra weeks (I realize the MF's on the points is a bit higher....but not crazily so).  The argument is that I can get at those weeks without having to pay another $2K, $4K, $8K per week (or whatever) in upfront costs to add the weeks.
> 
> ...



I think it is important to highlight that the primary economic comparison will be different depending upon the travel goals of each potential buyer. 

For the person who desires to travel primarily in traditional timeshare 7-night increments, then the appropriate economic data points to compare are - as you state above - the cost of points (upfront + MF) versus the cost of traditional weeks (upfront + MF). I agree that for this type of buyer, traditional weeks will usually be more economical, until perhaps you get into higher week usage where, as you suggest above, the ability to leverage a small upfront purchase with point rentals begins to pay bigger dividends.

On the other hand, for a person who often desires to travel in shorter increments, the cost comparison to weeks is almost irrelevant because weeks do not work as a way to obtain multiple shorter stays. It's like comparing the cost of a car to the cost of a boat. The car won't let you sail on the water, so comparing cost of ownership of a boat to the cost of ownership of a car is almost meaningless to achieving your goal of sailing on the water.

So for the person who often desires to travel in shorter increments rather than week-long increments, they should be comparing the cost of points ownership (upfront +MF) not to the cost of weeks, but to the cost of daily rentals of comparable accommodations. In other words, how much would it cost you to use cash to book a three-night stay for one trip to a desired location, plus a four-night stay for another trip (or as many nights as you can squeeze out of your points ownership) versus the overall cost of points?


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## DEScottzz (Jul 27, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> So for the person who often desires to travel in shorter increments rather than week-long increments, they should be comparing the cost of points ownership (upfront +MF) not to the cost of weeks, but to the cost of daily rentals of comparable accommodations. In other words, how much would it cost you to use cash to book a three-night stay for one trip to a desired location, plus a four-night stay for another trip (or as many nights as you can squeeze out of your points ownership) versus the overall cost of points?



Another factor on the short stays is that the points required for Sunday through Thursday nights are much less than for Friday and Saturday nights. For folks who use this fact to their advantage, the points can be really cost-effective. 

For example, I've booked a one bedroom in the Phoenix resort right after New Years for five nights at 150 points (just under $75) per night.

It appears to me that the nightly rate for the MVC resorts goes down during the week alot more than hotel rates do.


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## Fasttr (Jul 27, 2015)

DEScottzz said:


> Another factor on the short stays is that the points required for Sunday through Thursday nights are much less than for Friday and Saturday nights. For folks who use this fact to their advantage, the points can be really cost-effective.
> 
> For example, I've booked a one bedroom in the Phoenix resort right after New Years for five nights at 150 points (just under $75) per night.
> 
> It appears to me that the nightly rate for the MVC resorts goes down during the week alot more than hotel rates do.



Excellent point.


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## Fasttr (Jul 27, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> It's like comparing the cost of a car to the cost of a boat. The car won't let you sail on the water, so comparing cost of ownership of a boat to the cost of ownership of a car is almost meaningless to achieving your goal of sailing on the water.



THIS was likely invented by a MVC Salesperson as a way of showing you that even the most sound objections can still be overcome by a good salesperson.


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## Password is taco (Jul 27, 2015)

My family typically travels a week at a time.  Any less than that just doesn't seem worthwhile given the travel involved.  So, considering shorter trips aren't a factor, it sounds like weeks is the way to go.  Are there any other factors that make weeks less desirable given the shift in the industry to more points based systems?


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## dioxide45 (Jul 27, 2015)

A lot will also depend on the time of year you want to travel and if you want to go to the same, home resort, every year or nearly every year.

If you plan to go to the same home resort every year, then buying the week is the best option. If you want to travel to different resorts, then buying a week or points may be best. If you can travel in shoulder and off season, where II exchanges are easier, then I would recommend buying a week. One with a lock off option gives you the best bang for the buck. If you want to travel in peak season and want to be able to go to different resorts every year. Points will give you the most assurance that you will more often than not, get what you want. Though II does come through sometimes for peak season trades.


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## Bill4728 (Jul 27, 2015)

Password is taco said:


> My family typically travels a week at a time.  Any less than that just doesn't seem worthwhile given the travel involved.  So, considering shorter trips aren't a factor, it sounds like weeks is the way to go.  Are there any other factors that make weeks less desirable given the shift in the industry to more points based systems?


Even though most resort systems are going to points. most resort systems push their owners into making their stays 7 days or more. They do this by doing things like making a rule that a stay shorter than 7 days can not be reserved till 6 months before travel  Therefore since many people make a reservation at 10- 12 months before travel most of the reservations are for a week. 

Also most trades are for a week. 

So points may be the wave of the future but weeks are not going away soon.


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## JIMinNC (Jul 27, 2015)

Password is taco said:


> My family typically travels a week at a time.  Any less than that just doesn't seem worthwhile given the travel involved.  So, considering shorter trips aren't a factor, it sounds like weeks is the way to go.  Are there any other factors that make weeks less desirable given the shift in the industry to more points based systems?



To me, the primary other area where points seem superior to weeks is in unit/season/view choice.

With weeks you always own a specific category - as an example - a Platinum, two-bedroom, oceanfront unit. If you decide you want something other than what you own - such as a desire to travel in Gold or Silver season instead of Platinum; or if you only need a 1BR or Studio instead of a 2BR (traveling without kids) you have to do an II trade. In that example, the trade down to Gold/Silver season from Platinum or from a 2BR down to a 1BR/Studio can be done, but you won't receive any compensation for accepting a lesser season or size. This limitation of weeks can be overcome somewhat if you own a 2BR lock-off unit that can be split into - for example - a 1BR and a Studio. By splitting, you can get two weeks in smaller units.

Also, II Weeks exchangers cannot generally guarantee a specific view category as owners get priority. So you may not get oceanfront or ocean view - it depends on a lot of factors.

An advantage of points is you have complete control over unit size, season, and view and can choose whatever you want (subject to availability, of course) and only have your points account docked for what you use. You can also bank and borrow points to get bigger units, better views, or better seasons that you would normally not have enough points to book.

Let's say you have 4,000 Marriott DC Points. With that you could do ANY of the following (I'm using Hilton Head as a simple example):

- Book a full week at HHI Grande Ocean or Barony in the fall/spring Gold season in a 2BR
- If you want to go in the summer instead, you could settle for a Gardenview at Barony and have 275 points left over to bank to the following year
- If you are willing to stay at a non-oceanside resort on HHI like Harbour Point or Sunset Point, your 4000 points could get you three weeks in the summer with 325 points left to bank to next year, OR four weeks in the fall/spring with 200 points left over to bank.
- If one year (let's say 2016) you really wanted an oceanfront 2BR unit in the summer at Grande Ocean but only have the 4000 points in the example, you could use your 4000 2016 points then borrow 1400 points from 2017 and book a oceanfront unit at GO (or Barony). You would then only have 2600 points left for 2017, but you could still return to Hilton Head that summer, but could stay at Heritage Club or Harbor Club instead (and get free golf at Heritage Club).

There are obviously many other combinations. And the same kind of options present themselves at most other destinations. Hilton Head only has 2BR units, but in a location with a mixture of unit sizes, even more combinations/options present themselves. So here's one last example - Maui:

The only way to get a 2BR at Maui Ocean Club (original section) with only 4000 points is to bank or borrow from another year (or rent points). Point requirements range from 4700 for a 2BR Mountain/Garden view in low season to 7450 points for a 2BR oceanfront view in high season (to 9000 for a holiday week 2BR OF). So if you wanted to go to Maui in a 2BR OF in 2017 you could bank points from 2016 into 2017, book the trip and have 550 points left over to bank to 2018 (thus giving you 4550 points to play with in 2018).

But if its just two of you one year and you don't need 2BR, with 4000 points, you would have enough to book a 1BR Island View or Mountain/garden view at Maui Ocean Club any week of the year in 2017 except New Years week without banking or borrowing from another year. If you wanted oceanfront or ocean view, you could borrow a few points from the following year. Other than holiday weeks, the most expensive 1BR week at MOC costs 4875 points.

If you are willing to downsize even more to a Studio, a high season OF studio is only 3325 points. Even New Years in a studio only costs 4075 points.

So that should give you an idea of how points allow you to customize to exactly what you need. It's like the system gives you change if you don't use all of your currency and it lets you borrow from past or future years if you need more in any given year.

*NOTE: The point examples I used above were from the 2014-15 points book I had handy on my bookshelf. Some may have changed slightly for 2016 and 2017 hasn't been published yet, but it should still give you an idea of the options points offer.*


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## JIMinNC (Jul 27, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> If you plan to go to the same home resort every year, then buying the week is the best option.



This is an important point that I agree with 100%. This is where Weeks still shine. We love points, but there's a chance we'll add a Gold season OF at HHI Grande Ocean within the next two years for the express purpose of going to that resort every spring or fall once our youngest is in college.

GO maintenance fees are in the $1200 to $1300 range as I recall, but booking a Gold OF week with points requires 4000 points with an associated MF of just shy of $2000. So using points to stay means paying $700 to $800 more for that usage in MF. We just need to decide whether we would rather pay for a GO resale upfront or pay $700 to $800 more each year to rent points to do the same thing. If we could snag a Gold OF at GO for $10,000 to $11,000 we're looking at a 13-14 year payback versus annual point rentals. Were we not already in the Points system and were it not for point rentals, buying the GO week vs points would be a no-brainer. But since we're already in the system, the point rental option does present a reasonable alternative to forking out $10K or more up front.


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## DEScottzz (Jul 27, 2015)

I like my points, because I like the flexibility they offer. I just own a few, but I imagine that when it's time to rent more, those folks on Redweek who have a jillion or so points to rent would be willing to make me a reservation 13 months out for a five day stay. 

Still, I've learned to like Newport Coast enough that I might buy an every-other-year week there, if one comes up for the right price.


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## Marathoner (Jul 27, 2015)

Several people have mentioned the advantages of Marriott points. But the realizable benefits depends completely on your needs. For example, I need a 2 bedroom in holiday weeks due to my family size and school holiday schedule. I would not depend on points to get me my desired villas because points are fully fungible and many are competing for the exact same villas after they've paid tens of thousands to play. Fixed week purchases resale are the best for my needs followed by knowing how to maximize exchange potential.


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## chrono88 (Jul 27, 2015)

One limitation we have had with our Marriott weeks (which we enjoy very much) is the check in/check out day. We have used our HGVC points to supplement some of our Marriott weeks stays in the past (obviously only applicable in certain locations), but are considering adding a minimal DC point purchase now and renting more points as needed.


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## davidvel (Jul 27, 2015)

chrono88 said:


> One limitation we have had with our Marriott weeks (which we enjoy very much) is the check in/check out day. We have used our HGVC points to supplement some of our Marriott weeks stays in the past (obviously only applicable in certain locations), but are considering adding a minimal DC point purchase now and renting more points as needed.


No need to spend $12,000 + if you bought your weeks from Marriott (or pre-2010) you can enroll them for a LOT less than buying points, then just rent.


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## chrono88 (Jul 27, 2015)

We purchased resale post 2010, so we can't enroll. But we would if we could!


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## davidvel (Jul 27, 2015)

chrono88 said:


> We purchased resale post 2010, so we can't enroll. But we would if we could!


Well they got all the people that would pay $595-$1,995, then $2,395. 

Now that market has been over-fished, and they currently offer free enrollment with the purchase of an encore package. So, keep the faith that they will open pre-2010 for enrollment, to get more of the sold-out resorts that aren't in the trust in sufficient number.


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## Ty1on (Jul 27, 2015)

davidvel said:


> Well they got all the people that would pay $595-$1,995, then $2,395.
> 
> Now that market has been over-fished, and they currently offer free enrollment with the purchase of an encore package. So, keep the faith that they will open pre-2010 for enrollment, to get more of the sold-out resorts that aren't in the trust in sufficient number.



Buyer's market, patience pays off.


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## DEScottzz (Jul 28, 2015)

This has been a helpful discussion. Thanks to all who contributed.


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## Password is taco (Jul 28, 2015)

I agree, this has been a very useful discussion.  Thank you to everyone.  

I went into this thinking that one was the replacement for the other, but (understanding that opinions vary) I now see that the differences between the two serve different individuals with different objectives.

For me, as someone who likes to plan ahead, isn't afraid of getting my hands dirty to work the system, travels in 7 day increments, and is ok going to the same places, the weeks program seems to be a great fit.  

The points program seems to work well for people who don't mind spending extra money for the flexibility of booking shorter lengths of stays on shorter notice or with less searching.  

What I don't get with the points program is that, even though you get the flexibility to book vacations across the Marriott portfolio, it seems to me that you're still handcuffed by the amount of points you buy.  Say you buy 3,000 points, you're not going to be able to book something for more than that and you also probably would hesitate to book something less because then you have unused points.  Whereas with a week, you very well might be able to book a higher demand property if you try.  There are countless stories on here of folks trading an Orlando week for Hawaii.  Of course, I know you can't count on it every time, but I like the trill of the hunt.


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## taterhed (Jul 28, 2015)

I have 2 Marriott post-2010 weeks.
 I'm certainly hoping that someday soon we'll be offered some incentive to come play in the points sandbox.  The points are simply too expensive for me right now IMHO and once you have them....well, you're guaranteed a >20% loss on resale (a bargain compared to some...) unless the points grow pretty quickly.  I haven't checked what the current rate-of-growth pay-back to parity is on resale points, but it's probably 5-10 years.  

 I'm happy with my weeks--but we'll see what comes down the pike.  It'll be interested to see the SVO/FLEX changes too.


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## jont (Jul 28, 2015)

Password is taco said:


> What I don't get with the points program is that, even though you get the flexibility to book vacations across the Marriott portfolio, it seems to me that you're still handcuffed by the amount of points you buy.  Say you buy 3,000 points, you're not going to be able to book something for more than that and you also probably would hesitate to book something less because then you have unused points.



You have the ability to bank and borrow points from the adjacent years. Say you wanted a ressie in 2016 which is more points that you currently have for that year. You can bank points from 2015 into 2016 and if you still dont have enough you can borrow from 2017. keep in mind that points can only be moved once. If you move them into 2016 they must be used in 2016, you cannot move those points if you have a change of plans.
Of course, there is always the option of "renting" points from another. a great option, in my humble opinion. GregT has the link to his site "VPE' under his signature


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## Marathoner (Jul 28, 2015)

I would state that the price of points is artificially supported by MVC similar to developer/ROFR prices for weeks. This is sustainable in a growth market like it is currently. I wonder what is going to happen in the next recession when the demand for resale points dries up while the significant junk fees remains. 

I think the resale market for weeks is more time tested and predictable in a down economy than Trust points. Given the junk fees already present, it is possible that resale Trust points prices will really take a beating in the next major recession in 10yrs or whenever.


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## JIMinNC (Jul 28, 2015)

Password is taco said:


> What I don't get with the points program is that, even though you get the flexibility to book vacations across the Marriott portfolio, it seems to me that you're still handcuffed by the amount of points you buy.  Say you buy 3,000 points, you're not going to be able to book something for more than that and you also probably would hesitate to book something less because then you have unused points.  Whereas with a week, you very well might be able to book a higher demand property if you try.  There are countless stories on here of folks trading an Orlando week for Hawaii.  Of course, I know you can't count on it every time, but I like the thrill of the hunt.



It is true that the amount of points we own is a limiting factor. We can bank and borrow points from preceding/future years to bump up our available points for a given year, but ultimately our points are the limits of our currency as the years we bank or borrow from are reduced by the amount we bank or borrow. 

On the other hand, the concern you express about being reluctant to book something that requires less points than we own is not an issue at all, at least to us. Those points can always be banked or borrowed and should never go to waste. Using your 3000 point example, if we book a 2016 vacation that only uses 2500 of the 2016 points, we can always bank the 500 leftover points into 2017. Then we have 3500 points to use in 2017. If we don't use all of that, we can bank some 2017 points into 2018, and so on. 

Points are a zero sum game, however, and do not allow for that magical up-trade that the Weeks system sometimes produces. But by going places with lower points requirements or staying in smaller units or units with less spectacular views, we can sometimes stretch our points to give us more than one week of vacation, whereas Weeks can't do that as easily unless you are using a lockoff. Each system has its advantages and disadvantages for any given owner. 

If, as you say, you enjoy the thrill of the hunt for that great trade, then Weeks can certainly provide that excitement. In our case, as former 16 year owners of a regular week in another system, I can say without reservation that we did not enjoy hunting in RCI! We much prefer the simpler, more predictable booking process of points and do not miss the long waits, frustration, and uncertainty while waiting for an ongoing search to match. Points have some of that too, when you have to waitlist, but so far we haven't had to do that in our year or so as Marriott owners.

Having said all that, we will willingly try to use the II weeks system to get a weeks-based up-trade to Gold season in Hilton Head with our Silver week starting in 2017, but it's nice to know that is now just one option and not the only way we can use our week.


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## taterhed (Jul 28, 2015)

Password is taco said:


> I agree, this has been a very useful discussion. Thank you to everyone.
> 
> I went into this thinking that one was the replacement for the other, but (understanding that opinions vary) I now see that the differences between the two serve different individuals with different objectives.
> 
> ...




 (edit:  I just thought I might beat them to the punch...ha)

I'll beat them to the punch: you have kids....trading with school calendars is either going to be risky or unsatisfying. Flexibility is the key. The biggest risk obviously comes with expensive airfares to Hawaii etc....

But, yes, I agree with you. If you're looking for something to trade into Orlando (or own) and trade to California etc...for weeks, I think points are expensive for what you get.
JMHO

As to 'how many points,' I would only buy the minimum and rent what I needed. That's pretty cost efficient.


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## DEScottzz (Jul 28, 2015)

To me, it doesn't look like the number of points owned is a limit at all. There are plenty of rental points available, and the cost to rent them is about the same as the maintenance fees.

If I were doing it again, I'd buy (resale, of course) the smallest possible number of points, then just rent the rest when I need them. That way, I get to play in the points pool with the lowest possible up-front investment.


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## davidvel (Jul 28, 2015)

taterhed said:


> I have 2 Marriott post-2010 weeks.
> I'm certainly hoping that someday soon we'll be offered some incentive to come play in the points sandbox.  The points are simply too expensive for me right now IMHO and once you have them....well, you're guaranteed a >20% loss on resale (a bargain compared to some...) unless the points grow pretty quickly.  I haven't checked what the current rate-of-growth pay-back to parity is on resale points, but it's probably 5-10 years.
> 
> I'm happy with my weeks--but we'll see what comes down the pike.  It'll be interested to see the SVO/FLEX changes too.



Check out this thread about free enrollment with purchase of encore package.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 28, 2015)

davidvel said:


> Check out this thread about free enrollment with purchase of encore package.



Still, that encore offer only allowed pre 6/20/2010 external weeks to be enrolled. Still not available for post 6/20/2010 external weeks.


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## Password is taco (Jul 28, 2015)

It sounds like points are pretty flexible then, but I would still struggle justifying the difference in upfront costs.  My comfort in getting into timesharing at all is to hopefully save some money.  The higher the upfront and annual fee, the longer it takes to break even.  I want as short a break even as possible.  I'm just not seeing that in the points program.


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## davidvel (Jul 28, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> Still, that encore offer only allowed pre 6/20/2010 external weeks to be enrolled. Still not available for post 6/20/2010 external weeks.


Correct, I thought taterhead said "pre", my bad.


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## taterhed (Jul 28, 2015)

davidvel said:


> Correct, I thought taterhead said "pre", my bad.



'Don't TEASE-me bro...'


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## frank808 (Aug 3, 2015)

CCR said:


> I own weeks. I have found that buying a lock out unit is great for trading. My gold season Mountainside has been a great trader pulling Hawaii, NCV, Aruba, etc.  Availability in Interval is still good for trading (but school holidays can be a challenge at high demand resorts. I also own NCV and I'm sure that unit could pull some great trades but prefer to use the lock out unit instead in order to get 2 trades (or more) for 1 year of maintenance fees. If you can pick up points on resale that are affordable I do think the Marriott points are very flexible and owners are liking it.
> 
> For now I'm happy with my weeks but if Marriott ever offered to let resale owners convert over to points again, I'd definitely consider it.


I am wondering how do you lock off your newport coast 2br unit?  NCV is all dedicated 2br units there are no lock offs at that property.


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## Fasttr (Aug 3, 2015)

frank808 said:


> I am wondering how do you lock off your newport coast 2br unit?  NCV is all dedicated 2br units there are no lock offs at that property.



I think CCR was saying that rather than using the NCV to trade, they prefer to trade their Mountainside lock off unit to get 2 for 1's.


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## frank808 (Aug 3, 2015)

That makes more sense.


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## CCR (Aug 3, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> I think CCR was saying that rather than using the NCV to trade, they prefer to trade their Mountainside lock off unit to get 2 for 1's.



Yes thanks for clarifying.  I use the NCV one typically and trade the lock off at Mountainside to get several trades in Interval for that one week.


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## OWMBGV (Aug 4, 2015)

chrono88 said:


> For the flexibility points offer, we have been contemplating purchasing the minimum 1500 points resale and renting the rest of the points that we would want for any given year. That seems to be the most economical way, in my view, because the upfront cost is lower than any bundle package.




I would also suggest checking out booking with the owner discount as well.


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## Theousaf (Aug 4, 2015)

*Marriott Aruba*

Three years ago my wife and I went to four timeshare presentations in Aruba, one being with the Marriott who owns three properties on the island.  They explained that there are roughly 200,000 members in their "points" system which breaks down to 3% in the upper tier, 17% in the second tier and 80% in the remaining.  I forget how one gets to different tiers but my wife and I would initially be with the 80%.  So the folks in the upper tier and middle tier get first dibs on the cream of the crop timeshares.  200,000 * 20% = 40,000.  So 40,000 people get the most desirable properties, while the rest of us get what's left over.  Suppose only 10% want Aruba during the "platinum" time frame, that's 4,000 week/units.  If there are 400 units between the three Marriott Aruba resorts, that's 10 weeks gone.

The other resorts on the island had similar programs but also offered weeks, but were crazy expensive.  So we did asked around to learn how to buy directly from sellers and ended up buying four "weeks" at three different Aruban resorts, three being two bedroom lockouts, in Feb/Mar.  If we can't use the weeks, we rent them or let friends use them.  

One of our resorts is offering to convert our weeks to points and noone is doing so, at least not those with platinum weeks so the resort is going to build three new buildings that are just going to be sold as "points".  The problem is that there is not enough platinum inventory for those trying to trade in there gold/bronze to get platinum.

We heard too many horror stories from folks in the point system that can never get the most desirable weeks.  The resorts promise you the world to get you to buy, even where we own.  The told us how easy it would be to add a day or two on the front, or back end of our week, however usually there are none available, or if there are, at a very high price.  Why, because they put them on hotels.com and other such sites and are able to get their price.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 4, 2015)

Theousaf said:


> Three years ago my wife and I went to four timeshare presentations in Aruba, one being with the Marriott who owns three properties on the island.  They explained that there are roughly 200,000 members in their "points" system which breaks down to 3% in the upper tier, 17% in the second tier and 80% in the remaining.  I forget how one gets to different tiers but my wife and I would initially be with the 80%.  So the folks in the upper tier and middle tier get first dibs on the cream of the crop timeshares.  200,000 * 20% = 40,000.  So 40,000 people get the most desirable properties, while the rest of us get what's left over.  Suppose only 10% want Aruba during the "platinum" time frame, that's 4,000 week/units.  If there are 400 units between the three Marriott Aruba resorts, that's 10 weeks gone.
> 
> The other resorts on the island had similar programs but also offered weeks, but were crazy expensive.  So we did asked around to learn how to buy directly from sellers and ended up buying four "weeks" at three different Aruban resorts, three being two bedroom lockouts, in Feb/Mar.  If we can't use the weeks, we rent them or let friends use them.
> 
> ...



Actually with Marriott, my short experience has been the opposite of what you imply. While we've only owned Marriott for a year, I have found prime-time availability as a points owner in the lowest priority tier to still be excellent. We've been able to book exactly what we want, when we want it...so far. 

What they were probably referring to in your presentations was that Marriott's higher tier elite status owners get access to book 13 months out whereas the rest of us have to wait until 12 months out. But the key is, Marriott does not release all of the inventory at 13 months and hold back significant inventory (maybe as much as 50% or more) for those of us who don't have full 13-month privileges. In fact, those of us in the lowest tier can still book at 13 months, it just costs us a 20% extra points premium. When I have searched for prime time accommodations at the 13 month release point, availability is often limited or nonexistent, but at the 12 month point, everything usually opens up - as long as I have enough points to book the reservation.


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## Bill4728 (Aug 4, 2015)

frank808 said:


> I am wondering how do you lock off your newport coast 2br unit?  NCV is all dedicated 2br units there are no lock offs at that property.


Yes that is right they are all 2 bd units.  So we use one week of our NCV weeks to stay in and the other we get DC pts and can then trade our pts for more than one week.


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## Theousaf (Aug 5, 2015)

*I hope you are right JimInNC*

I have met countless people who have had great difficulty getting Aruba in prime season.  You should be aware of "Hell Weeks" at the Marriotts in the Jan/Feb time frame.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 5, 2015)

Theousaf said:


> *I hope you are right JimInNC*
> 
> I have met countless people who have had great difficulty getting Aruba in prime season.  You should be aware of "Hell Weeks" at the Marriotts in the Jan/Feb time frame.



I hope I'm right, too!   Time will tell.

But as I recall, when I went online right at the opening of the 12 month reservation window, early this year when I was just shopping around, I recall seeing plenty of Aruba availability in January and February. Yes, there were certain periods here and there that may not have had availability, but overall availability in the DC points system looked pretty good as long as you had a little flexibility on which week you go. Now if you had to have Presidents week or MLK week, that might have been an issue (but I don't specifically recall which weeks were not as available).  Right now we can't use any of those Jan/Feb weeks anyway because we're still tied to the school calendar for two more years (and even those holiday weeks are generally just one or at most two days of school break, so can't travel then either.)


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## cyseitz (Aug 16, 2015)

*Maintenance Fees*

If going with the week option, which resorts should you focus on that would have the lowest MF's?


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## CCR (Aug 16, 2015)

#1 Branson Willow Ridge Lodge I think is the lowest with a lock off.  #2 some Orlando resorts.  After that, I think Las Vegas, Phoenix, some Palm Springs resorts, and Mountainside Park City are all pretty reasonable.  Newport Coast is affordable but it doesn't lock off.  I'd also look at Williamsburg or New Jersey.

Look at the Marriott forum sticky of "Marriott 2015 Maintenance Fees" to get an idea of the different amounts.  I don't know the resorts well enough around Hilton Head & Myrtle Beach to comment on those.  I think less of those lock off.


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## BocaBoy (Aug 16, 2015)

One somewhat minor point:  There seems to be an assumption here that the maintenance fees per legacy point for weeks owners are cheaper than the fees for trust points.  That is clearly true for most if not all of the more expensive resorts (e.g., Maui has a rather low MF/point even with very high maintenance fees), but it is not at all true for many of the cheaper resorts, especially for off season weeks.  Because they have relatively few legacy points associated with them, the MF/point for many of these resorts/seasons are higher than the fees for trust points.  So the ongoing annual value of legacy points is generally the most attractive at the most expensive resorts.


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## cyseitz (Aug 16, 2015)

BocaBoy said:


> One somewhat minor point:  There seems to be an assumption here that the maintenance fees per legacy point for weeks owners are cheaper than the fees for trust points.  That is clearly true for most if not all of the more expensive resorts (e.g., Maui has a rather low MF/point even with very high maintenance fees), but it is not at all true for many of the cheaper resorts, especially for off season weeks.  Because they have relatively few legacy points associated with them, the MF/point for many of these resorts/seasons are higher than the fees for trust points.  So the ongoing annual value of legacy points is generally the most attractive at the most expensive resorts.



Can you please tell me the difference between legacy points and trust points.
Thanks!


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## bazzap (Aug 17, 2015)

Legacy Points are those Week(s) owners get by enrolling their Week(s) in the MVC Destination Club Points programme.
Such Owners then decide each year whether to elect this Week(s) for Points or not.
Trust Points are "pure" Points from buying directly into the MVC Destination Club Points programme.
Such Owners could either be new Owners or Week(s) Owners adding to their portfolio.
In the latter case Owners could have both Legacy and Trust Points.
TUG has plenty of debate about whether or not the potential benefits of Legacy Points being "supercharged" by buying Trust Points.
I am certainly not convinced by MVC reps trying to convince me of how I will have problems in future getting the bookings I want unless I add Trust Points to my Legacy Points.


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