# Recent Owner Updates With Tales of Vistana/MVC Merger



## iowaguy09 (Jun 9, 2021)

Just chumming for any TUGGERS with recent owner updates that included discussions about how the MVC/WVC/SVC consolidation (yes, still speculative at best) might go down?


----------



## duke (Jun 9, 2021)

I was told that current 5 Star Elite will be upgraded to Marriott Titanium.


----------



## mjm1 (Jun 9, 2021)

At a recent owner update/sales presentation we were told they still anticipate a release in Q1 2022. No details available at this time and they wouldn’t speculate.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## dioxide45 (Jun 9, 2021)

So many different stories. SVV is all about telling people that changes are coming in 2022 and you will be able to use the Dashboard to book Marriott properties with your StarOptions at a 32:1 ratio to DC points.

The sales reps really have no details as to what or how anything is really going to be implemented. I do think some cross booking function will exist, but how that will happen is anyone's guess. However, one thing to look at is how other timeshare companies have implemented these kinds of things. Wyndham/Worldmark, Wyndham/Shell, Embard/Diamond. There really weren't many changes in any of those systems that impacted how people used their existing ownerships. I suspect Marriott, Westin & Sheraton will be the same.


----------



## daviator (Jun 9, 2021)

I got completely different (and probably equally incorrect) stories at WKORV and WDW this year.  The sales folks know something is coming, they don’t know what, and they are making things up from rumors and maybe-truths that are floating around.

I don’t expect big changes for owners of deeded weeks, there isn’t that much they can legally do. Probably some kind of overlay program, maybe opt-in for a fee, that allows some reciprocal access at six months or something. But that’s just speculation too. 

32:1 transfer ratio is a joke. I can’t imagine any WVC owner wanting to use MVC properties at that ratio.  Maybe some of the Sheraton properties would find that more appealing, I don’t know.


----------



## cubigbird (Jun 9, 2021)

What I fear is these flex trusts get devalued.  What is currently a week of points today is less than a week of points in any new program, ie: 148,100 options that is a week today is less than a week at the same resort at the exact time in anything new.  I agree though a deed for a week is a deed for a week and that can't be taken away.  It's a good position to own a deed.  Stay tuned.


----------



## bobpark56 (Jun 9, 2021)

duke said:


> I was told that current 5 Star Elite will be upgraded to Marriott Titanium.


If I'm Bonvoy titanium,  do I get 5-star elite (3-star now)?


----------



## dioxide45 (Jun 9, 2021)

bobpark56 said:


> If I'm Bonvoy titanium,  do I get 5-star elite (3-star now)?


No, it is the other way around. Certain levels of 5 Star Elite with Vistana get Platinum Bonvoy status, all other owners get gold (developer or requalified purchases only). Your Bonvoy status gets you nothing in Vistana.


----------



## dsmrp (Jun 9, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> No, it is the other way around. Certain levels of 5 Star Elite with Vistana get Platinum Bonvoy status, all other owners get gold (developer or requalified purchases only). Your Bonvoy status gets you nothing in Vistana.



When it was Starwood, a developer purchase or maybe it was 3*, got you Starwood Gold, then it became Bonvoy Gold. So nothing new yet, right?


----------



## controller1 (Jun 9, 2021)

dsmrp said:


> When it was Starwood, a developer purchase or maybe it was 3*, got you Starwood Gold, then it became Bonvoy Gold. So nothing new yet, right?



When it was Starwood and as is currently, any developer purchase gets the owner Gold status in the hotel loyalty program. To receive 3-Star Elite requires owning a minimum of the equivalent of 159,000 StarOptions with a minimum of two VOIs. Only 5-Star Elite (649,000 StarOption minimum) gets an owner Platinum status in the hotel loyalty program.


----------



## daviator (Jun 9, 2021)

controller1 said:


> When it was Starwood and as is currently, any developer purchase gets the owner Gold status in the hotel loyalty program. To receive 3-Star Elite requires owning a minimum of the equivalent of 159,000 StarOptions with a minimum of two VOIs. Only 5-Star Elite (649,000 StarOption minimum) gets an owner Platinum status in the hotel loyalty program.


The Marriott Vacation Club elite program is much more generous when it comes to Bonvoy status, and it's much easier to get Bonvoy Platinum and even Titanium at the top couple of levels.  So this is a benefit that's likely to improve for Vistana owners as they bring the two programs closer together.


----------



## rcv82 (Jun 10, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> What I fear is these flex trusts get devalued. What is currently a week of points today is less than a week of points in any new program, ie: 148,100 options that is a week today is less than a week at the same resort at the exact time in anything new. I agree though a deed for a week is a deed for a week and that can't be taken away. It's a good position to own a deed. Stay tuned.



Just like with the deeded weeks, legally I think they would have to preserve the value of home options in Flex. If you have 148,100 Westin Flex HomeOptions you own the right to a weeks worth of 2br use at any of the 8 Westin properties in high season. They cannot legally devalue and say now you need to buy more to get a week. 

For both deeded and Flex, I believe they can legally change around the value of StarOptions or any other exchange currency any way they want. In my last update (April at WKORV) they suggested the system would likely look more like the MVC system where the point values vary much more by property than with Vistana. This was in attempt to sell Maui oceanfront as that would likely be substantially more valuable in the new system than with the current StarOption values. This suggests there would not be a fixed (say 32:1) conversion ratio. While I think this was just speculation from the sales rep, look at how SPG became much more like Marriott in the merger and not the other way around. And in this speculation the existing StarOptions would go away as they thought Marriott would be unlikely to maintain two exchange currencies. While I’m not a lawyer, in my reading of the disclosures this looks like something they could legally do as long as they maintain your deeded week or HomeOptions. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## daviator (Jun 10, 2021)

rcv82 said:


> Just like with the deeded weeks, legally I think they would have to preserve the value of home options in Flex. If you have 148,100 Westin Flex HomeOptions you own the right to a weeks worth of 2br use at any of the 8 Westin properties in high season. They cannot legally devalue and say now you need to buy more to get a week.
> 
> For both deeded and Flex, I believe they can legally change around the value of StarOptions or any other exchange currency any way they want. In my last update (April at WKORV) they suggested the system would likely look more like the MVC system where the point values vary much more by property than with Vistana. This was in attempt to sell Maui oceanfront as that would likely be substantially more valuable in the new system than with the current StarOption values. This suggests there would not be a fixed (say 32:1) conversion ratio. While I think this was just speculation from the sales rep, look at how SPG became much more like Marriott in the merger and not the other way around. And in this speculation the existing StarOptions would go away as they thought Marriott would be unlikely to maintain two exchange currencies. While I’m not a lawyer, in my reading of the disclosures this looks like something they could legally do as long as they maintain your deeded week or HomeOptions.
> 
> ...



Aren't VSN and StarOptions in the deed for mandatory resorts?  I’m not sure they can get rid of it.  I need to go back and examine my documents.

If they do something that disadvantages owners, the whole thing will get tied up in lawsuits, and they know if. So I’ve got to imagine they will tread carefully.


----------



## MommaBear (Jun 10, 2021)

I just went to a MVC presentation, and for the small sum of $45,000, I could buy into the Marriott club and be guaranteed entrance "because everyone in Vistana is going to have to do this to have access to Marriott resorts". Don't think it's going to happen this way, but I'm sure some people have been sucked in.


----------



## rcv82 (Jun 10, 2021)

daviator said:


> Aren't VSN and StarOptions in the deed for mandatory resorts? I’m not sure they can get rid of it. I need to go back and examine my documents.
> 
> If they do something that disadvantages owners, the whole thing will get tied up in lawsuits, and they know if. So I’ve got to imagine they will tread carefully.



I have three types of ownerships: a mandatory (WKORV), voluntary (SMV), and Westin Flex as a mixture of requalified resale and developer purchases, so all are in VSN. I went back and took a look at the various disclosures for each of these. For both the WKORV and SMV, the documentation is very clear that they can change the value in the network to reflect relative demand. For the Flex, it is a little less obvious, but it appears they could change the network value (currently StarOptions) but would have to leave the HomeOptions as sold.  The WKORV disclosures have multiple pages describing the "club", "network", "point assignment" and the ability to adjust network point assignments every year as long as the total points assigned reflect the total units available in the network. It's a long but well written description.

I agree that even if they could do this from the disclosures, they would open themselves up to being sued over misrepresentation from the sales reps even if legally covered in the disclosures. So I think it is more likely that they will use a separate exchange between Vistana and MVC (which they could vary based upon deposited ownership), but leave StarOptions as the internal Vistana exchange. But from everything I read, while they have to leave alone what you bought in terms of deeded weeks or HomeOptions, they could substantially change the network value assignments and not violate the disclosures as long as the total network points is equal to the units available in the network.


----------



## sherakay (Jun 10, 2021)

DVC has been changing point values every year it seems like. Re-shuffling according to demand. I doubt there will be much blow back if they re-shuffle SO.



rcv82 said:


> I have three types of ownerships: a mandatory (WKORV), voluntary (SMV), and Westin Flex as a mixture of requalified resale and developer purchases, so all are in VSN. I went back and took a look at the various disclosures for each of these. For both the WKORV and SMV, the documentation is very clear that they can change the value in the network to reflect relative demand. For the Flex, it is a little less obvious, but it appears they could change the network value (currently StarOptions) but would have to leave the HomeOptions as sold.  The WKORV disclosures have multiple pages describing the "club", "network", "point assignment" and the ability to adjust network point assignments every year as long as the total points assigned reflect the total units available in the network. It's a long but well written description.
> 
> I agree that even if they could do this from the disclosures, they would open themselves up to being sued over misrepresentation from the sales reps even if legally covered in the disclosures. So I think it is more likely that they will use a separate exchange between Vistana and MVC (which they could vary based upon deposited ownership), but leave StarOptions as the internal Vistana exchange. But from everything I read, while they have to leave alone what you bought in terms of deeded weeks or HomeOptions, they could substantially change the network value assignments and not violate the disclosures as long as the total network points is equal to the units available in the network.


----------



## daviator (Jun 10, 2021)

rcv82 said:


> I have three types of ownerships: a mandatory (WKORV), voluntary (SMV), and Westin Flex as a mixture of requalified resale and developer purchases, so all are in VSN. I went back and took a look at the various disclosures for each of these. For both the WKORV and SMV, the documentation is very clear that they can change the value in the network to reflect relative demand. For the Flex, it is a little less obvious, but it appears they could change the network value (currently StarOptions) but would have to leave the HomeOptions as sold.  The WKORV disclosures have multiple pages describing the "club", "network", "point assignment" and the ability to adjust network point assignments every year as long as the total points assigned reflect the total units available in the network. It's a long but well written description.
> 
> I agree that even if they could do this from the disclosures, they would open themselves up to being sued over misrepresentation from the sales reps even if legally covered in the disclosures. So I think it is more likely that they will use a separate exchange between Vistana and MVC (which they could vary based upon deposited ownership), but leave StarOptions as the internal Vistana exchange. But from everything I read, while they have to leave alone what you bought in terms of deeded weeks or HomeOptions, they could substantially change the network value assignments and not violate the disclosures as long as the total network points is equal to the units available in the network.


Thank you for saving me the trouble of having to read my WKORV disclosures (I did read them when I bought, but that was two decades ago!)

So this might upend the age-old practice of buying for maximum SOs at minimum MFs.  MVC/Vistana could decide that WKORV ownerships that used to be worth 148,100 SOs are now worth 180,000 SOs (just pulling numbers out of thin air) but WDW ownerships that used to also be 148,100 SOs will now be worth only 116,200 SOs because they are less in demand.  

So your ability to book at your home resort (during home resort period) wouldn't change, but your ability to use SOs inside of 8 months could get better or significantly worse based on where you own.  And perhaps unsurprisingly, in many cases the resorts with the lowest MFs may also get fewer SOs.

Hmm.  That would definitely turn one of the main sales rep arguments into misrepresentation (when I bought at WDW, the sell was definitely "buy here because our MFs are lower for the same amount of SOs" which, at the time, was a strong argument that convinced me to buy there.  I can imagine some pretty serious gnashing of teeth by those who are more litigious than I.

On the other hand, if my WKORV got more SOs and my WDW got fewer, it might be almost a wash in terms of personal impact on me.  Once you get to 8 months, it doesn't matter where the SOs are coming from.

It will be interesting to see how it turns out.  Although many people have expressed the belief that Marriott will want to combine and simplify, I don't think it's in their interest to simplify.  I think it's in their interest to make things even more complicated.  The more complex they make it, the more people fail to use any or all of their ownership, and they make money when they're able to monetize nights going unused by owners.  That won't affect TUGgers too much as most folks here put in the effort to learn to make the system work for them.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad (Jun 10, 2021)

daviator said:


> Hmm.  That would definitely turn one of the main sales rep arguments into misrepresentation (when I bought at WDW, the sell was definitely "buy here because our MFs are lower for the same amount of SOs" which, at the time, was a strong argument that convinced me to buy there.  I can imagine some pretty serious gnashing of teeth by those who are more litigious than I.



That's small potatoes compared to "You are investing in a piece of valuable Maui real estate and as you know over time real estate will always increase in value". Mine  has 'appreciated' from $45K to $15K in just 16 years   

I'm also pretty sure when they sold me WKORV-N pre-construction on the premise that all units had ocean view, the model they showed did not include Building 8 which I presume they must have built by mistake


----------



## Eric B (Jun 10, 2021)

I’ve only owned WSJ for a short time, but understand that the SOs assigned to specific weeks/unit types were raised sometime after 2010.  For example, a 1 BR VGV Platinum Plus used to be 81,000, but is now 95,700.  Historically, the speculation that SO values can be changed has born out.  I haven’t heard of any that went down, though, which would be a tougher choice for them to make as it would be more likely to really upset owners of that resort.


----------



## WatsonC2 (Jun 11, 2021)

Eric B said:


> I’ve only owned WSJ for a short time, but understand that the SOs assigned to specific weeks/unit types were raised sometime after 2010.  For example, a 1 BR VGV Platinum Plus used to be 81,000, but is now 95,700.  Historically, the speculation that SO values can be changed has born out.  I haven’t heard of any that went down, though, which would be a tougher choice for them to make as it would be more likely to really upset owners of that resort.


By raising the value of some resorts (ie 81,000 for 1 week changing to 95,700 for 1 week) it has the effect of devaluing other ownerships but without the obvious appearance of those ownerships being devalued.  Those who own weeks that would now be worth more SOs actually benefit from the moves.


----------



## rcv82 (Jun 11, 2021)

Corey Watson said:


> By raising the value of some resorts (ie 81,000 for 1 week changing to 95,700 for 1 week) it has the effect of devaluing other ownerships but without the obvious appearance of those ownerships being devalued. Those who own weeks that would now be worth more SOs actually benefit from the moves.



Yes, agree. But it could also have a side benefit of making some of the higher demand resorts/rooms more available, granted for more points. For example, I will never let my WKORV Ocean Front Deluxe units, with their $3300 maintenance fees, convert to StarOptions, even at 176,700 StarOptions. And it is rare that somebody does (2020 with Covid was an anomaly). Which means they are almost impossible to book on StarOptions. It they we worth substantially more StarOptions maybe I would. But probably not (I bought them to use them). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DavidnRobin (Jun 12, 2021)

SOs for WSJ VGV have increased twice.
SOs for WKORV and WKORVN OF were also increased.

WKORVN always had 3 view levels - even in preconstruction sales.
(We bought WKORVN OF preconstruction and then rescinded when we found TUG in 2005, then bought OFD WKORV resale)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45 (Jun 12, 2021)

I don't think they can as easily increase or change StarOption values at resorts now. With weeks now conveyed to a trust at a specified point value, I think they are kind of stuck. The points now have to remain the same. They can adjust values to book into a season or certain date, as long as they keep the overall allocation the same within the entire trust, but can't really increase the Options they offer an owner. Perhaps the only ones they could change would be those not yet having weeks conveyed to the trust, like Oceanfront in Maui or WSJ.


----------



## BuckeyeAndy (Jun 14, 2021)

Hi Everyone,

We went to an owners update while staying at Westin Nanea and heard a lot of interesting updates that are similar to what is being posted here.  The sales person we talked to said that they expected by Q2 of 2022 that you would be able to trade your star options and convert to Marriott Destination club points and book a Marriott Villa property.  Of course, there are no specifics on how many points different Vistana properties would get in the Marriott DVC program.  In addition, they did say there have been discussions that the Elite program might have 3 and 4 star owners get Platinum Bonvoy status and the 5 stars might get Titanium Elite.  There are no guarantees on anything but the pitch is that you should buy more at the Westin properties (they had availability at WKORV, WKORVN and Nanea) as they will have great trading power in the Marriott Villas program and I assume properties bought on resale might not have the ability to trade to Marriott DVC directly.  While it seems there is a lot of speculation in all of these things, it does sound like there will be some changes coming to bring the programs closer together sometime in 2022.  Probably best to wait until they materialize before making decisions based on speculation!


----------



## Blackberri (Aug 4, 2021)

MommaBear said:


> I just went to a MVC presentation, and for the small sum of $45,000, I could buy into the Marriott club and be guaranteed entrance "because everyone in Vistana is going to have to do this to have access to Marriott resorts". Don't think it's going to happen this way, but I'm sure some people have been sucked in.


I just heard the same thing at Cancun more or less. I inherited a deed for a fixed week (52 in St John no less, lucky me). They want to "consolidate" my ownership to MVC for $15-$24k in exchange for about 150-250k Staroptions. (Options can convert to Bonvoy and Interval, of course) I'm also skeptical that I'll only have the 23 Vistana properties to choose from after the merger, but I guess that could increase the pressure to roll over. I'm taking a wait and see approach while I enjoy my holiday time on the beach.


----------



## CPNY (Aug 4, 2021)

Blackberri said:


> I just heard the same thing at Cancun more or less. I inherited a deed for a fixed week (52 in St John no less, lucky me). They want to "consolidate" my ownership to MVC for $15-$24k in exchange for about 150-250k Staroptions. (Options can convert to Bonvoy and Interval, of course) I'm also skeptical that I'll only have the 23 Vistana properties to choose from after the merger, but I guess that could increase the pressure to roll over. I'm taking a wait and see approach while I enjoy my holiday time on the beach.


I wouldn’t give them WSJ back at all


----------



## vacationtime1 (Aug 4, 2021)

Blackberri said:


> I just heard the same thing at Cancun more or less. I inherited a deed for a fixed week (52 in St John no less, lucky me). They want to "consolidate" my ownership to MVC for $15-$24k in exchange for about 150-250k Staroptions. (Options can convert to Bonvoy and Interval, of course) I'm also skeptical that I'll only have the 23 Vistana properties to choose from after the merger, but I guess that could increase the pressure to roll over. *I'm taking a wait and see approach while I enjoy my holiday time on the beach.*


Good decision.

Welcome to TUG.


----------



## cubigbird (Aug 7, 2021)

Here’s a new one.  At our last owners update they said Vistana’s Mexico inventory - Lagunamar weeks and Aventuras Flex will not be a part of the merged network.


----------



## vacationtime1 (Aug 7, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> Here’s a new one.  At our last owners update they said Vistana’s Mexico inventory - Lagunamar weeks and Aventuras Flex will not be a part of the merged network.



That may actually be true.  Mexican timeshares are generally RTU's which makes merging them into a US trust problematic.  

But the salesperson doesn't know anything more about the contemplated merged network than we do at this point.


----------



## cubigbird (Aug 7, 2021)

vacationtime1 said:


> That may actually be true.  Mexican timeshares are generally RTU's which makes merging them into a US trust problematic.
> 
> But the salesperson doesn't know anything more about the contemplated merged network than we do at this point.


Isn’t that the whole premise about Aventuras, to have its own trust?  Couldn’t this be an issue / is an issue with other existing non-US Marriott locations such as Costa Rica, Thailand and Australia?  I just couldn’t buy it.

If it is true, why would they be actively selling now a Mexico product that they know wouldn’t be in the network? That would be intentionally misleading.

You are right, it did come from a sales person so I’m careful to not transact based on verbal representations.


----------



## vacationtime1 (Aug 7, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> Isn’t that the whole premise about Aventuras, to have its own trust?  Couldn’t this be an issue / is an issue with other existing non-US Marriott locations such as Costa Rica, Thailand and Australia?  I just couldn’t buy it.
> 
> If it is true, why would they be actively selling now a Mexico product that they know wouldn’t be in the network?* That would be intentionally misleading.*
> 
> You are right, it did come from a sales person so I’m careful to not transact based on verbal representations.


Intentionally misleading?
I'm shocked.
Round up the usual suspects.


----------



## CPNY (Aug 7, 2021)

vacationtime1 said:


> That may actually be true.  Mexican timeshares are generally RTU's which makes merging them into a US trust problematic.
> 
> But the salesperson doesn't know anything more about the contemplated merged network than we do at this point.


Can’t they create something like the VSN and include it that way?


----------



## Eric B (Aug 7, 2021)

CPNY said:


> Can’t they create something like the VSN and include it that way?



Isn't there already one?  Maybe they could just adjust it.


----------



## CPNY (Aug 7, 2021)

Eric B said:


> Isn't there already one?  Maybe they could just adjust it.


I’m thinking for the combination program. If they give full access to the VSN to Marriott owners at 8 months, there is no reason to keep ownership. The competition would be too intense. It’s hard enough to get into most resorts at 8 months now. I couldn’t imagine dealing with Marriott owners who would jump at the chance to get into places like WSJ, WLR, HRA, and KAA/KAN.


----------



## ocdb8r (Aug 8, 2021)

CPNY said:


> I’m thinking for the combination program. If they give full access to the VSN to Marriott owners at 8 months, there is no reason to keep ownership. The competition would be too intense. It’s hard enough to get into most resorts at 8 months now. I couldn’t imagine dealing with Marriott owners who would jump at the chance to get into places like WSJ, WLR, HRA, and KAA/KAN.



It should cut both ways though...there are a lot of Marriott properties that owners at those Vistana resorts may be enticed to transfer into.  

I wouldn't expect there to be much impact on demand for KAA/KAN as there will effectively be 5 Kaanapali resorts across the combined program.  WSJ has been much easier to get into since it's been totally transformed into timeshare, and given Marriott has MFC, I also wouldn't expect demand to change there drastically.  HRA and WLR are wildcards. HRA is and has always been a unique proposition (although I think Atlantis Bahamas has lost it's luster in the last couple of years).  WLR and the other Mexico resorts present a uniquely new destination for MVC owners and I could see a situation where initial demand there is higher than the past....but there is a lot of developer inventory at all the Mexico resorts, aside from WLR, which I think will minimize impact.


----------



## cubigbird (Aug 8, 2021)

As I mentioned before, sales seems to be under the impression that Mexico - Aventuras and WLR won’t be in the network in the new Marriott combined product.  Taking that with a grain of salt of course coming from sales, that contradicts the whole idea of MVW picking up new locations where they currently don’t have a presence.  I asked for it in writing and they certainly couldn’t furnish anything.  I’m sure they came up with that because I own Mexico and wanted to create a problem.


----------



## HankW (Aug 8, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> As I mentioned before, sales seems to be under the impression that Mexico - Aventuras and WLR won’t be in the network in the new Marriott combined product.  Taking that with a grain of salt of course coming from sales, that contradicts the whole idea of MVW picking up new locations where they currently don’t have a presence.  I asked for it in writing and they certainly couldn’t furnish anything.  I’m sure they came up with that because I own Mexico and wanted to create a problem.


By leaving Lagunamar and Los Cabos out of the network, is MVC basically saying they are not interested in MVC Resorts in Mexico?  What are MVC's current resort projects in Mexico? 

I do love going to Lagunamar and Los Cabos resorts twice to three times a year, so far it is working as planned.

For all of us here, especially Mexico owners, is leaving Lagunamar and Los Cabos out of the network something good or bad for VSN owners? VSN Mexico's owner?


----------



## cubigbird (Aug 8, 2021)

HankW said:


> By leaving Lagunamar and Los Cabos out of the network, is MVC basically saying they are not interested in MVC Resorts in Mexico?  What are MVC's current resort projects in Mexico?
> 
> I do love going to Lagunamar and Los Cabos resorts twice to three times a year, so far it is working as planned.
> 
> For all of us here, especially Mexico owners, is leaving Lagunamar and Los Cabos out of the network something good or bad for VSN owners? VSN Mexico's owner?



Remember, this came from sales so we don’t know if this is true. It’s only a verbal representation.

If it were to become true, what would it mean by not “being in the network?”


----------



## ocdb8r (Aug 8, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> Remember, this came from sales so we don’t know if this is true. It’s only a verbal representation.
> 
> If it were to become true, what would it mean by not “being in the network?”



Exactly. 

First, it dubious information at best given it came from sales.  Second, even if there is a modicum of truth to it, I am sure it's likely another sales misunderstanding or spin on the reality.  We already know there may be issues putting Mexico properties into a "Trust" alongside US properties.  That in no way precludes them from making arrangements for whatever system is in place to permit ability to trade or book into Mexico resorts (just as SVN has been able to do thus far).  To me, it would be LUDICROUS that these properties are completely excluded from whatever MVC/SVN crossover system is put into place.  Mexico is the number 1 international travel destination for Americans and a big hole in the MVC portfolio.  I can't conceive of any reason MVC would exclude these resorts (given we know there is some legal way to permit some sort of trading given SVN has successfully done it thus far).


----------



## dioxide45 (Aug 9, 2021)

The Mexico properties certainly won't be part of any US based trust, but like the Asia Pacific, Australian, European and now Costa Rica, there is no reason they can't be part of a combined exchange company program.


----------



## cubigbird (Aug 9, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> The Mexico properties certainly won't be part of any US based trust, but like the Asia Pacific, Australian, European and now Costa Rica, there is no reason they can't be part of a combined exchange company program.


So then what does that look like and mean?  Any Mexico resorts would then exchange within their own “mini network” but at 8 months or so out the points could be used to book elsewhere?


----------



## rcv82 (Aug 9, 2021)

It will be interesting to see what they do with this because Vistana and MVC operate so differently. Vistana currently has the various Flex trusts which you are booking your share of the ownership at 8-12 months but only in the resorts of your trust. While it operates very much like the VSN StarOptions, it is legally a very different. The VSN StarOptions are really an exchange currency, and the two could be made to be very different. I don’t understand MVC well, but it appears their trust and enrolled weeks operate largely as one.

One of the big questions in my mind is how things will be valued. All the high seasons in Vistana basically use the same point value at 81k per week for a one bedroom, 148100 for a two bedroom (with some view having higher values). From there it is basically first come first served. MVC has much more variability in points between resorts and weeks that are all part of the same point value at Vistana. These two approaches seem basically incompatible. My guess is things will look more like MVC. I think they can change the StarOption values anyway they want, but the degree to which they change Flex values seems more sensitive as I think they have to keep owners whole. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## daviator (Aug 9, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> So then what does that look like and mean?  Any Mexico resorts would then exchange within their own “mini network” but at 8 months or so out the points could be used to book elsewhere?


Isn’t that how Aventuras already works?


----------



## daviator (Aug 9, 2021)

The MVW execs talked in their recent earnings call about how wonderful the new merged program was going to be and how it was going to make both existing owners and prospective owners very happy. That would be great, but of course it’s exactly the sort of thing you’d expect them to say to investors.

Personally, I expect to be underwhelmed at best, and unhappy at worst, with whatever changes are announced.  I’ll be ecstatic if they exceed my low expectations.  I do expect that, as a four star elite, I’ll get Bonvoy Platinum and probably Titanium if they merge the elite programs. That will be a plus as it will eliminate the need to earn it through stays every time and would allow me to stay at fewer Marriott hotel properties (ironically.)


----------



## dioxide45 (Aug 9, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> So then what does that look like and mean?  Any Mexico resorts would then exchange within their own “mini network” but at 8 months or so out the points could be used to book elsewhere?


It would be based on Aventuras and Lagunamar owners converting to points. If an Aventuras owner converts their Home Options to DC points, they would put that inventory into the MVC Exchange program for other DC owners to use DC points to book. Same would go for Lagunamar weeks owners. Kind of how enrolled Marriott weeks owners convert to points. Once they convert, their week becomes available to DC Exchange company. MVC also has the Asia Pacific program that is pure points based (like Aventuras). It should work similar. If an owners elects to use their Home Options for DC points, then the DC exchange company can use the inventory to book.

This of course all dependant on how they actually implement things.


----------



## cubigbird (Aug 9, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> It would be based on Aventuras and Lagunamar owners converting to points. If an Aventuras owner converts their Home Options to DC points, they would put that inventory into the MVC Exchange program for other DC owners to use DC points to book. Same would go for Lagunamar weeks owners. Kind of how enrolled Marriott weeks owners convert to points. Once they convert, their week becomes available to DC Exchange company. MVC also has the Asia Pacific program that is pure points based (like Aventuras). It should work similar. If an owners elects to use their Home Options for DC points, then the DC exchange company can use the inventory to book.
> 
> This of course all dependant on how they actually implement things.


This explanation makes much more sense and I’m guessing we will see something along these lines.  The message impressed upon me was that it isn’t going to be part of network, it’s a dead contract, you won’t be able to use it, you might as well give it up now.  Solution of course is to give it back in buy points in a different product.  My first thought was “if it’s essentially useless, why do you want it back?”


----------



## DanV (Aug 14, 2021)

WKV owner update - nothing in writing or announced but salesperson said he had received some training on the merger and that the exchange value into Marriott will be property dependent. So, for example, Vistana ocean view Hawaii properties would get the best exchange rate into the Marriott program (maybe better than 1:1) and e.g., some Sheraton properties would get a lesser exchange rate (less than 1:1). He said Marriott definitely does not believe that the pay low MF for Plat week in WKV and get a Plat week in Hawaii is a good approach. Crap.   

Seemed to indicate that all inventory would be available to all owners at the 8 month mark with only some advantage going to 5 star (and maybe 4 star) owners. 

At one point, I thought I understood him to indicate that the name Vistana and the VSN network might be totally going away? When I returned to this point later to clarify, the response was less clear and included some discussion of major IT challenges.  

Anyway, more chum in the water . . . .


----------



## HankW (Aug 14, 2021)

DanV said:


> WKV owner update - nothing in writing or announced but salesperson said he had received some training on the merger and that the exchange value into Marriott will be property dependent. So, for example, Vistana ocean view Hawaii properties would get the best exchange rate into the Marriott program (maybe better than 1:1) and e.g., some Sheraton properties would get a lesser exchange rate (less than 1:1). He said Marriott definitely does not believe that the pay low MF for Plat week in WKV and get a Plat week in Hawaii is a good approach. Crap.
> 
> Seemed to indicate that all inventory would be available to all owners at the 8 month mark with only some advantage going to 5 star (and maybe 4 star) owners.
> 
> ...


This is another interesting situation. No expert here, but it looks like it goes against our current VSN Startoptions framework, correct? How can we implement a MVC framework in our current SVN framework. How can something like this work both ways? VSN <---> MVC?


----------



## daviator (Aug 14, 2021)

DanV said:


> WKV owner update - nothing in writing or announced but salesperson said he had received some training on the merger and that the exchange value into Marriott will be property dependent. So, for example, Vistana ocean view Hawaii properties would get the best exchange rate into the Marriott program (maybe better than 1:1) and e.g., some Sheraton properties would get a lesser exchange rate (less than 1:1). He said Marriott definitely does not believe that the pay low MF for Plat week in WKV and get a Plat week in Hawaii is a good approach. Crap.
> 
> Seemed to indicate that all inventory would be available to all owners at the 8 month mark with only some advantage going to 5 star (and maybe 4 star) owners.
> 
> ...


I won’t believe that any of this is actually true until I hear it directly from Vistana/MVW.  But a lot of the mechanics around VSN and StarOptions are part of the deeds, at least at some properties, and those can’t be unilaterally changed.  

if they can get owners to give their deeds back to MVW or to opt in to some new program, maybe those who drink the Kool-aid will be a part of this new program, but I don’t think they can just get rid of VSN with the stroke of a pen.


----------



## dioxide45 (Aug 14, 2021)

DanV said:


> WKV owner update - nothing in writing or announced but salesperson said he had received some training on the merger and that the exchange value into Marriott will be property dependent. So, for example, Vistana ocean view Hawaii properties would get the best exchange rate into the Marriott program (maybe better than 1:1) and e.g., some Sheraton properties would get a lesser exchange rate (less than 1:1). He said Marriott definitely does not believe that the pay low MF for Plat week in WKV and get a Plat week in Hawaii is a good approach. Crap.
> 
> Seemed to indicate that all inventory would be available to all owners at the 8 month mark with only some advantage going to 5 star (and maybe 4 star) owners.
> 
> ...


There will absolutely be no 1:1 conversion ratio from StarOptions to Marriott DC points. Not a chance. More like 30:1 or even worse.


----------



## DanV (Aug 14, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> There will absolutely be no 1:1 conversion ratio from StarOptions to Marriott DC points. Not a chance. More like 30:1 or even worse.



Sorry, my writing regarding the 1:1 was not clear. There will not be a 1:1 StarOption to Marriott DC point exchange, that is correct. What I meant to relay is that there may not be a 1 night : 1 night exchange. In other words, it might take 9 or 10 nights worth of StarOptions from a "less valuable property" for a week in a Marriott property presumably even in the same "season".


----------



## controller1 (Aug 14, 2021)

DanV said:


> Sorry, my writing regarding the 1:1 was not clear. There will not be a 1:1 StarOption to Marriott DC point exchange, that is correct. What I meant to relay is that there may not be a 1 night : 1 night exchange. In other words, it might take 9 or 10 nights worth of StarOptions from a "less valuable property" for a week in a Marriott property presumably even in the same "season".



Yes I worry about all the advice being given to newbies on TUG to purchase SVV (Bella & Key West) and/or WKV to trade into Maui. I think we may want to indicate this 1:1 trading ability may be short-lived as I'm sure MVW is working to close what MVW may consider as the ability of Vistana owners to unfairly leverage those two relatively inexpensive resorts for the more expensive Maui resorts.


----------



## robertk2012 (Aug 15, 2021)

I doubt that Marriott is too worried that much about SVV or WKV.  No additional inventory can be created and they could always buy up those units and put them in one of the trusts.


----------



## robertk2012 (Aug 15, 2021)

................


----------



## robertk2012 (Aug 15, 2021)

DanV said:


> Sorry, my writing regarding the 1:1 was not clear. There will not be a 1:1 StarOption to Marriott DC point exchange, that is correct. What I meant to relay is that there may not be a 1 night : 1 night exchange. In other words, it might take 9 or 10 nights worth of StarOptions from a "less valuable property" for a week in a Marriott property presumably even in the same "season".


This is already the case.


----------



## FC3 (Aug 15, 2021)

DanV said:


> Sorry, my writing regarding the 1:1 was not clear. There will not be a 1:1 StarOption to Marriott DC point exchange, that is correct. What I meant to relay is that there may not be a 1 night : 1 night exchange. In other words, it might take 9 or 10 nights worth of StarOptions from a "less valuable property" for a week in a Marriott property presumably even in the same "season".


It is close, 32:1 on the points. So 81K converts to about 2500 DP allowing for 7nights 2BD at say Florida properties but it appears there is a fee for exchange leaving you about 200DP short of 7 nights.  The same with a 2BD in Maui 148100 SO to 4628 DP leaving you 200 to 2500 DP short depending if you want to book Ocean View or IV.  It's a lame deal, 28-30:1 would be more fair but my guess is we will never see that as long as people are buying?


----------



## Mowogo (Aug 15, 2021)

controller1 said:


> Yes I worry about all the advice being given to newbies on TUG to purchase SVV (Bella & Key West) and/or WKV to trade into Maui. I think we may want to indicate this 1:1 trading ability may be short-lived as I'm sure MVW is working to close what MVW may consider as the ability of Vistana owners to unfairly leverage those two relatively inexpensive resorts for the more expensive Maui resorts.


I truly believe that MVW is taking advantage of this opportunity to starve all of the retail gamesmanship of the Mandatory properties.  I wouldn't be surprised if it is retail flex owners, with possibly some retail weeks owners switching from VSN as the internal exchange to DC as the internal exchange.  VSN would still exist to satisfy the Mandatory owners, but it would start the starvation and many people might actually bite and upgrade into the unified product just to access places they used to use VSN to exchange into but now have been starved of inventory.  The time has been making sure to review all the contracts to make sure they can get away with that swap.


----------



## cubigbird (Aug 15, 2021)

Mowogo said:


> I truly believe that MVW is taking advantage of this opportunity to starve all of the retail gamesmanship of the Mandatory properties.  I wouldn't be surprised if it is retail flex owners, with possibly some retail weeks owners switching from VSN as the internal exchange to DC as the internal exchange.  VSN would still exist to satisfy the Mandatory owners, but it would start the starvation and many people might actually bite and upgrade into the unified product just to access places they used to use VSN to exchange into but now have been starved of inventory.  The time has been making sure to review all the contracts to make sure they can get away with that swap.



That’s why we own where we want to travel to.


----------



## CPNY (Aug 15, 2021)

Mowogo said:


> I truly believe that MVW is taking advantage of this opportunity to starve all of the retail gamesmanship of the Mandatory properties.  I wouldn't be surprised if it is retail flex owners, with possibly some retail weeks owners switching from VSN as the internal exchange to DC as the internal exchange.  VSN would still exist to satisfy the Mandatory owners, but it would start the starvation and many people might actually bite and upgrade into the unified product just to access places they used to use VSN to exchange into but now have been starved of inventory.  The time has been making sure to review all the contracts to make sure they can get away with that swap.



Sounds about right. One way to flag any eligible owner to convert into the CC program would be if their StarOption unit is currently eligible to be converted to bonvoy points. That signifies it being a developer purchase or resale week that has been brought into the network via a new purchase to retro the resale.

I think some people would bite and give back what they own and buy “up” for the ability to book Marriott units directly via points. As someone who only wants the Caribbean, I may be in luck. Marriott hasn’t taken any harborside units back. This is mostly likely due to the fact that they currently own enough inventory and the transfer/lawyer fee in the Bahamas is astronomical. I suspect that plenty of owner inventory would stay in the VSN for that resort. As far as WSJ, inventory currently is nearly impossible at 8 months so I don’t see much change there.


----------



## Mowogo (Aug 15, 2021)

Message Deleted


----------



## pchung6 (Aug 15, 2021)

Mowogo said:


> I truly believe that MVW is taking advantage of this opportunity to starve all of the retail gamesmanship of the Mandatory properties.  I wouldn't be surprised if it is retail flex owners, with possibly some retail weeks owners switching from VSN as the internal exchange to DC as the internal exchange.  VSN would still exist to satisfy the Mandatory owners, but it would start the starvation and many people might actually bite and upgrade into the unified product just to access places they used to use VSN to exchange into but now have been starved of inventory.  The time has been making sure to review all the contracts to make sure they can get away with that swap.


I doubt MVC would worry too much of the small percentage of mandatory owners. There are just so many of SVV or WKV platinum weeks and Vistana stopped it long ago. If I'm the management of MVC, I rather utilize the resources to make the program more appealing than deal with this small mandatory group. In the long run, mandatory owners will slowly trade in or turn in, so why penalize them and face possible legal actions?


----------



## CPNY (Aug 15, 2021)

pchung6 said:


> I doubt MVC would worry too much of the small percentage of mandatory owners. There are just so many of SVV or WKV platinum weeks and Vistana stopped it long ago. If I'm the management of MVC, I rather utilize the resources to make the program more appealing than deal with this small mandatory group. In the long run, mandatory owners will slowly trade in or turn in, so why penalize them and face possible legal actions?


And why piss off potential customers?


----------



## bward (Sep 5, 2021)

I recently had an Owners Update. We own 67,000 mandatory S.O at Vistana Villages Bella. 
I've had it for 20 years, and obviously found out after the recision deadline that we didn't buy enough, found TUG, resisted upgrades ever since, that's all  a story for another day, and one that I think is familiar to many reading this.
So, at our meeting, I was told that we wouldn't be pressured into buying anything that day (that was something Starwood did), we would be given information about the exciting new programs and we would have until December to decide what we want to do.. 
Bottom line, they were trying to get me to upgrade (by selling my week to them ) and buying 81,000 S.O. at .78/ per Star Option, for a price in excess of $60,000. This was their offer and made with a straight face. They would credit me the $16,000 I paid in 2003, so final cost, somewhere about $45,000. 
Or, I could accept  an offer made to me that I rejected in ( 2015?) at .38/S.O and I could walk away, by paying roughly $16,000 to upgrade. 
Only catch, the $16,000 offer was only good that day. Otherwise I could wait until December and the $45,000 would still be available. But hurry up, that .78/SO will be going up soon!
I had no trouble walking away. 
The kicker? On the way out, I was offered a rental week at SVV for $1k plus Bonvoy Points. When I take that week, I was told I would be offered the upgrade again, at the .38/SO level, and they would deduct the $1K vacation. So now we are down to $15k.  And....wait for it...I have two years to do all this. What happened to hurry up, today or nothing? What happened to no pressure? I was born at night, but I wasn't born last night.
I know, it's to be expected, but still.
I think my real choice is whether to pack it in and get rid of our timeshare or buy more and continue on. I'm leaning towards the former.
We've had 20 years of great vacations. I love the resorts and never had any real complaints. 
I am very concerned that their vacation system will continually change and evolve, making more upgrades (beyond this one) needed. Not to mention the escalating annual fees.
But I'm tired of this.
Our meeting was designed to sell us Westin/Sheraton Flex. I was told the Hilton and Marriott timeshares would be included. And that if I had 81K star options, when the new system was in place, I would no longer have to worry about seasons, or location of resorts, I could use my options at the same level anywhere. 
We had a two hour meeting. There was a lot of razzle dazzle with numbers and points and options, but this is basically the distillation of what was offered to us. 
If I was on the ball, I would have  asked them, "Can you just sell me 16,000 option for .78/SO to get me to $81,000 and take it from there?"  I probably would have done that. Honestly, I'd be kicking myself, because I did not really understand, nor was it explained in any great detail, how I could use my option in Flex at places outside of Westin/Starwood. And that means, I probably couldn't. And I'd be making the same mistake I made in 2003. 
 Instead, I'm probably getting out. Just waiting for the right door to open.


----------



## cubigbird (Sep 5, 2021)

Hilton is not part of the Marriott system.  They are a separate company.  If they said that it’s a straight up lie.  If you are thinking Hyatt, that’s also not true.  While it is true MVW bought Hyatt, we have been told it is not part of any integration and will remain separate.


----------



## bward (Sep 5, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> Hilton is not part of the Marriott system.  They are a separate company.  If they said that it’s a straight up lie.  If you are thinking Hyatt, that’s also not true.  While it is true MVW bought Hyatt, we have been told it is not part of any integration and will remain separate.



The sales Rep clearly said Hilton. I was surprised by that too, but I figured maybe I missed that acquisition by Marriott.
TBH, there was so much being said that didn't sound right, it was getting exhausting.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Sep 5, 2021)

@bward Your presentation sounds exhausting. You have a valuable mandatory unit that gets 67k Staroptions. If you took a portion of the $45k for the 16k "upgrade" and rented what you needed for the extra nights you would be far ahead.  Best part? You can stop renting at any time, or pay cash to rent outside the system - no hassle, no obligations. Stop attending presentations and enjoy your ownership or rental.

At least you can sell or give away your mandatory deeded unit and are protected by Florida law if you cannot sell and must walk. Sheraton Flex resale is worth zilch and you may not have legal protections because it is not deeded like your current unit. You could have had that Flex albatross around your neck for years to come with no clear exit path.

Congrats on missing a bullet.


----------



## dioxide45 (Sep 5, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Sheraton Flex resale is worth zilch and you may not have legal protections because it is not deeded like your current unit. You could have had that Flex albatross around your neck for years to come with no clear exit path.


From what I understand, Flex Home Options are still deeded in Orange County Florida and go through the same non-judicial foreclosure process as deeded weeks.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Sep 5, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> From what I understand, Flex Home Options are still deeded in Orange County Florida and go through the same non-judicial foreclosure process as deeded weeks.



I would hope this is the case. However, the issue is that land trusts contain deeds from states outside of Florida. While there is precedent for a single deed in specific states like Florida. It has been unproven in court which state laws for timeshares prevail when land trusts contain deeds from multiple states. Several lawyers on TUG have agreed on other threads that land trusts are the wild west when it comes to timeshares foreclosures.

IMHO just as developers hopped on the deed bandwagon many years ago, this is the latest design by the developers to prevent people from walking from their TS in the future.


----------



## dioxide45 (Sep 5, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I would hope this is the case. However, the issue is that land trusts contain deeds from states outside of Florida. While there is precedent for a single deed in specific states like Florida. It has been unproven in court which state laws for timeshares prevail when land trusts contain deeds from multiple states. Several lawyers on TUG have agreed on other threads that land trusts are the wild west when it comes to timeshares foreclosures.
> 
> IMHO just as developers hopped on the deed bandwagon many years ago, this is the latest design by the developers to prevent people from walking from their TS in the future.


There have been plenty of liens and foreclosures filed in Orange County for Sheraton Flex. Not sure that they are handled any differently than a weeks based foreclosure.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Sep 6, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> There have been plenty of liens and foreclosures filed in Orange County for Sheraton Flex. Not sure that they are handled any differently than a weeks based foreclosure.



Agree. I am not a lawyer but it would be good to see if some of our TUG lawyer community  (e.g. @Grammarhero, @Fredflintstone)  could research some of these land trust defaults and see if Florida law was applied to these cases (i.e. non-judicial, anti-deficiency protection when there is no objection to foreclosure). If so, this would set a precedent.

Until it is fully settled in the courts, I am wary of land trusts.


----------



## RunCat (Sep 14, 2021)

Owner's update yesterday.  Received 40,000 Bonvoy point for my time.  No info on mergers.  Did not push the timeshares too much.  Most of the presentation was about Bonvoy points.  And then to upgrade to convert to points.    
I did buy an Explorer package.  Offered 4 nights in a studio at the Westin RiverFront (non-winter) + 100,000pts for $995.  Seemed like a decent offering.   (looking at a late July date and the  Marriott website shows $1205 for 4 nights in the studio villa)


----------



## PamMo (Sep 14, 2021)

RunCat said:


> Owner's update yesterday.  Received 40,000 Bonvoy point for my time...



I feel dissed! I was only offered 25K Bonvoy points (or $150) at MOC for an update.


----------



## RunCat (Sep 14, 2021)

PamMo said:


> I feel dissed! I was only offered 25K Bonvoy points (or $150) at MOC for an update.



40,000 is the most I have seen.  It might be due to being in low season.  Also, when I told the Explorer rep that we would probably come back to Avon (live in CO), the Explorer package offering was reduced by $100 and the points were increased from 50K -> 100K.   The bump and the price reduction made the package almost a no-brainer.


----------



## dioxide45 (Sep 14, 2021)

RunCat said:


> 40,000 is the most I have seen.  It might be due to being in low season.  Also, when I told the Explorer rep that we would probably come back to Avon (live in CO), the Explorer package offering was reduced by $100 and the points were increased from 50K -> 100K.   The bump and the price reduction made the package almost a no-brainer.


They have two types of explorer packages. I don't understand the logic of pricing and points on them. One package is for a return to the resort you are touring. This one comes with 100K Bonvoy and is cheaper. The other package is to return to any resort and is only 50K Bonvoy and you can book at any resort.


----------



## byeloe (Sep 14, 2021)

Did the update at Lagunamar last week. I told the salesman upfront that I could get Aventuras for free, so would not be buying.
Nothing in writing but he said that there will be ability to swap Staroptions at 8 months to access MVC properties.  He wasn't sure if resale owners would get access.


----------



## GabrielSmith (Sep 14, 2021)

I purchased a resale WKORV 2BR EOYO at the end of 2019 for $3000. (I know, GREAT DEAL!) I purchased from SMTN and had a great experience with Ryan. In the beginning of Sept my wife and I went to The Westin Los Cabos Resort Villas & Spa and stayed for a week in a 2BR ocean view for 56k SO. While we were there we went to an owners updated where they tried to sell us Westin Adventures (which we declined.) The very last package of 44k points EOY for $10k to make our resale "authorized" we also declined. The salesman told us that unless we made our unit "authorized" we would not be able to take advantage of the additional 80+ properties in MVC. We declined and got our free excursion to swim with dolphins, which was fantastic! I spoke to another Vistana rep when I got back state side and she tried to sell me on Westin Flex and told me that with the merger that Vistana and MVC are going to a "Pure Point" system and the new dashboard will be launched in April 2022. Who knows if that's actually correct or not. Needless to say, playing the waiting game to see what actually happens.


----------



## RunCat (Sep 15, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> They have two types of explorer packages. I don't understand the logic of pricing and points on them. One package is for a return to the resort you are touring. This one comes with 100K Bonvoy and is cheaper. The other package is to return to any resort and is only 50K Bonvoy and you can book at any resort.


Thanks. . . I should have been more clear.  They initially offered the more flexible package.  But living in CO and with the return being at the Westin made the more restrictive package better for my us.


----------



## RunCat (Sep 15, 2021)

GabrielSmith said:


> I purchased a resale WKORV 2BR EOYO at the end of 2019 for $3000. (I know, GREAT DEAL!) I purchased from SMTN and had a great experience with Ryan. In the beginning of Sept my wife and I went to The Westin Los Cabos Resort Villas & Spa and stayed for a week in a 2BR ocean view for 56k SO. While we were there we went to an owners updated where they tried to sell us Westin Adventures (which we declined.) The very last package of 44k points EOY for $10k to make our resale "authorized" we also declined. The salesman told us that unless we made our unit "authorized" we would not be able to take advantage of the additional 80+ properties in MVC. We declined and got our free excursion to swim with dolphins, which was fantastic! I spoke to another Vistana rep when I got back state side and she tried to sell me on Westin Flex and told me that with the merger that Vistana and MVC are going to a "Pure Point" system and the new dashboard will be launched in April 2022. Who knows if that's actually correct or not. Needless to say, playing the waiting game to see what actually happens.



interesting that you mention pure points; the Explorer price lock showed only ‘per point’ pricing for the Sheraton and Westin flex programs. That may have been the case for awhile, but I have not been on an update since 2018.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Sep 15, 2021)

GabrielSmith said:


> I purchased a resale WKORV 2BR EOYO at the end of 2019 for $3000. (I know, GREAT DEAL!) I purchased from SMTN and had a great experience with Ryan. In the beginning of Sept my wife and I went to The Westin Los Cabos Resort Villas & Spa and stayed for a week in a 2BR ocean view for 56k SO. While we were there we went to an owners updated where they tried to sell us Westin Adventures (which we declined.) The very last package of 44k points EOY for $10k to make our resale "authorized" we also declined. The salesman told us that unless we made our unit "authorized" we would not be able to take advantage of the additional 80+ properties in MVC. We declined and got our free excursion to swim with dolphins, which was fantastic! I spoke to another Vistana rep when I got back state side and she tried to sell me on Westin Flex and told me that with the merger that Vistana and MVC are going to a "Pure Point" system and the new dashboard will be launched in April 2022. Who knows if that's actually correct or not. Needless to say, playing the waiting game to see what actually happens.



Wow. What a bunch of sales garbage. As a resale owner of WKORV you already are "authorized" to use SO points because WKORV is a mandatory property; resale owners get these rights. If the rep is referring to the ability to convert your SOs to Bonvoy, well, that is of little value because Bonvoy is devaluing like a rock so your best value is to use the property or SOs anyway. Congrats on your nice deal.


----------



## CPNY (Sep 15, 2021)

I was at SVV last week and they called me at 8am on Labor Day to “welcome me” and to say they “see that I haven’t scheduled an owners update yet”. It took every nerve in my body to hold my composure and not lose it on them for waking me up so early with that nonsense. Looking back at it, I should have went on the update. I would have brought a bucket of popcorn for the comedy show I would have listened to.


----------



## dioxide45 (Sep 15, 2021)

CPNY said:


> I was at SVV last week and they called me at 8am on Labor Day to “welcome me” and to say they “see that I haven’t scheduled an owners update yet”. It took every nerve in my body to hold my composure and not lose it on them for waking me up so early with that nonsense. Looking back at it, I should have went on the update. I would have brought a bucket of popcorn for the comedy show I would have listened to.


Perhaps they would have assigned you to Mike again!


----------



## CPNY (Sep 15, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Perhaps they would have assigned you to Mike again!


The thought of dealing with that guy again is why I refused to partake in any of their sales nonsense


----------



## Jax44 (Sep 17, 2021)

Did our Explorer package presentation yesterday at WKORV. Didn’t buy!. The new Explorer packages are 5 nights , 1bedroom is now 1894.00 with 100,000 points. Didn’t buy this either.
Vague talk of the merger early next year.
So a question: we are planning on buying resale from a friend, 2 bed ocean view, every year at North. Would you go ahead at this time or wait and see what transpires?.
We currently have no timeshares.


----------



## grrrah (Sep 17, 2021)

Jax44 said:


> Did our Explorer package presentation yesterday at WKORV. Didn’t buy!. The new Explorer packages are 5 nights , 1bedroom is now 1894.00 with 100,000 points. Didn’t buy this either.
> Vague talk of the merger early next year.
> So a question: we are planning on buying resale from a friend, 2 bed ocean view, every year at North. Would you go ahead at this time or wait and see what transpires?.
> We currently have no timeshares.


I'm assuming that WKORVN is where you want to go the most, and in that case I probably would. Especially if you are getting a "friend" price.  If you are worried about how a joint exchange may turn out and buying of trading, maybe wait.


----------



## vacationtime1 (Sep 17, 2021)

Jax44 said:


> Did our Explorer package presentation yesterday at WKORV. Didn’t buy!. The new Explorer packages are 5 nights , 1bedroom is now 1894.00 with 100,000 points. Didn’t buy this either.
> Vague talk of the merger early next year.
> So a question: we are planning on buying resale from a friend, 2 bed ocean view, every year at North. Would you go ahead at this time or wait and see what transpires?.
> We currently have no timeshares.


I agree with the last post -- if you want to stay at WKORVN every year, the merger will have little or no impact on you.  You will own a deeded week in your view category.


----------



## Jax44 (Sep 17, 2021)

vacationtime1 said:


> I agree with the last post -- if you want to stay at WKORVN every year, the merger will have little or no impact on you.  You will own a deeded week in your view category.


Yep, we love it there. And the friend price can’t be beat.
Thanks everyone!


----------



## ChiefIlliniwek (Sep 17, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Perhaps they would have assigned you to Mike again!




I did an update in July.  Can I do another in November?  I bought a cheap getaway week in Orlando for November and am looking for activities.


----------



## Henry M. (Sep 17, 2021)

I have 5 developer weeks and I'm thinking about buying a couple more aftermarket weeks if I find some good prices. I'd probably buy North at this time, since it is where my wife and I prefer to stay, but OV south is also nice. I love all the Maui properties, though. 

I'm at Nanea right now, but I prefer the mandatory North and South properties. This is my first stay at Nanea. It is nice, but I'm a creature of habit and have been going to the other properties since they opened.


----------



## dioxide45 (Sep 17, 2021)

ChiefIlliniwek said:


> I did an update in July.  Can I do another in November?  I bought a cheap getaway week in Orlando for November and am looking for activities.


Last time we were there, they would allow you to do a tour every 60 days in Orlando.


----------



## LanceM (Sep 19, 2021)

Currently in Orlando at a Sheraton. Owner update first offered to buy equal or better point into Marriott [We have Nanea EOY]. Points were in Vistana points (or equivalent, but there was no exchange rate mentioned other than our Nanea points were worth more in the Marriott System). We turned it down strictly on not wanting to give up our HI deed, so they offered a cheaper package with no trade in. Still turned it down because we only bought in 2019 and we are notinterested in upgrading yet. The last offer was ~$8,000 for 20,000 options to just move our Nanea into the system to access Marriott. Didn't feel like forking over $8k for a new system (20k options), so turned them down again. 60 days was mentioned several times as separation between updates; we already plan on a short stay in December at a different resort where we could take advantage of the "2021 special pricing" before "2022 new regular pricing" if we feel the need; I don't think we will change our minds.
Mostly, I don't think the sales agent presented anything better other than more exchange opportunities. Most of the presentation was on how Marriott want to capture more of the money we spend on vacation. They want more invested in point that can be used to buy not only resorts but airfare, car rentals, and other; including gift cards to buy groceries. Not sure I want to invest more into Marriott on trust that these exchange systems will be beneficial.


----------



## 47vampire (Sep 21, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> No, it is the other way around. Certain levels of 5 Star Elite with Vistana get Platinum Bonvoy status, all other owners get gold (developer or requalified purchases only). Your Bonvoy status gets you nothing in Vistana.


I went to an update last week and they were trying to get you to pay to put everything into points ( I own weeks).  No real explaination as to how this conversion would work, what value I would see from doing it.    Stupid money , I had to put it into perspective for my husband who thought it was good until I really did the math for him.  Overall, they did say that 3-5 star elites would get something "nice" in the transition but still not telling what it is.  High pressure to convert, saying deed backs will disappear as October 1, 2021, basically when they  plan to annouce whatever they are doing.


----------



## 47vampire (Sep 21, 2021)

bward said:


> The sales Rep clearly said Hilton. I was surprised by that too, but I figured maybe I missed that acquisition by Marriott.
> TBH, there was so much being said that didn't sound right, it was getting exhausting.


Hilton /Hyatt were mentioned at my presentation last week.  Clearly stated several times that they were not part of what was being offered to Sheraton/Westin/Vistana owners .  Sales said it could not be part of combined systems.  Also said at one time they thought so but as they worked through it, the answer was no.  My cost presentation was about the same as yours.  Giving me credit for my $16900 investment but the final cost was coming out at $42,000. I was also offered the package stay good for a year at $1197 for a 5 day in a 2 bedroom ( more than my MF now and fewer days stay) and the price would be good for 1 year on the cost of conversion.  Walk away today and it will go up to $.78 on October 1. Still too much uncertainity in the validity of the fact presented. We are older and looking at travel in a different way now.  The timeshares we own don't fit our needs and I rent them out every year and mostly use II for getaways.


----------



## BradC (Sep 30, 2021)

Attended an owner's update today.  I was offered a 56,300 Flex package, and with that, I was told I would be able to bring all of my resale purchases "into" the new program.  The claim is that I would be able to convert any/all of my StarOptions to Marriott Vacation points and reserve any MVC property at 13 months out.

The weird part (to me) was that the conversion to MVC points was based on the number of Bonvoy points associated with my units (not the number of associated StarOptions).

It's tempting to be able to get into those other properties, but the conversion rate seems a little poor comparing to what I could get in Vistana.


----------



## daviator (Sep 30, 2021)

BradC said:


> Attended an owner's update today.  I was offered a 56,300 Flex package, and with that, I was told I would be able to bring all of my resale purchases "into" the new program.  The claim is that I would be able to convert any/all of my StarOptions to Marriott Vacation points and reserve any MVC property at 13 months out.
> 
> The weird part (to me) was that the conversion to MVC points was based on the number of Bonvoy points associated with my units (not the number of associated StarOptions).
> 
> It's tempting to be able to get into those other properties, but the conversion rate seems a little poor comparing to what I could get in Vistana.


Lies, I think, at least about the conversion to MVC points.  

And why would MVC base a conversion value around Bonvoy points?  Bonvoy is a program from a completely different company (Marriott Hotels and Resorts has merely a contractual relationship with MVC, they could change things about the Bonvoy program any time they want to.)  Plus, for Vistana resorts, that conversion value isn’t very sensical. 

I'd advocate against making any purchases until the new program is actually announced and you can deal with facts and not made-up half-truths.  I’ve got to believe that all of the uncertainty about what MVC is going to do with Vistana have put a damper on sales, so the sales people are making up more and more lies in an attempt to push people into spending money.


----------



## rcv82 (Sep 30, 2021)

It would make no sense to convert to DC points based upon the Bonvoy point value. However, I could see that only units eligible for Bonvoy points could be converted. To be eligible for Bonvoy points it had to be either a developer purchase or requalified resale via a developer purchase. Resales, including mandatory, do not get Bonvoy points unless requalified. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CPNY (Oct 1, 2021)

rcv82 said:


> It would make no sense to convert to DC points based upon the Bonvoy point value. However, I could see that only units eligible for Bonvoy points could be converted. To be eligible for Bonvoy points it had to be either a developer purchase or requalified resale via a developer purchase. Resales, including mandatory, do not get Bonvoy points unless requalified.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That was my thought a few years back when they announced a combined program. It could be possible that not all mandatory resorts would be eligible to be converted to DC points. However, any unit in Vistana that can be converted to Bonvoy points would be eligible for the exact reasons you stated.


----------



## alexadeparis (Oct 4, 2021)

Attended a presentation Friday at WSJ. Pretty low key. Take aways were as follows: properties that MVC considered premium would receive MVC DC points by dividing SOs by 28, less desirable would be divided by 32. Tried to get more details on that, as in, would Sheraton be divided by 32, while Westin would be divided by 28? I did ask the same thing several different ways. I don’t think they know exactly themselves yet which resorts will get what, but the salesperson thought WSJ and HRA would get the more favorable ratio, as far as within my current portfolio.
so the math was shown to me like this 148,100/32 =4,628 DP but more likely my HRA would be worth 148,100/28 = 5,289 DP
and therefore my SVR will most likely only be worth 81,000/32= 2,531 DP.

The major push was for us to buy an eoy unit to retro my 2 resale units so that they can be included into the merger with Marriott, and get me to 4 star elite, for just under $20,000.  Once merged with Marriott, we would be at presidential level based on the speculated range of roughly 13,000 to 14,000 DP my units would be worth, and able to reserve within DP at the 13 month mark. The range was calculated without my SVV Bella unit since it was strongly implied my unqualified resale would not be included in DP. Tried to clarify if there would be an enrollment similar to 2010 MVC offer for resales but they didn’t know and wouldn’t speculate.

Finally, the other offer was to take my developer SVR back, with 1/2 of what I paid as trade in $, and purchase Sheraton Flex. Was told Flex will integrate seamlessly into MVC DP points, and that if I bought flex I would be able to deposit as many or as little flex points for use on DP units (like 40,000 flex could be placed in DP and 41000 could be left as staroptions) whereas my current SVR units when integrated would require the deposit of my entire week in order to trade for DP. (In other words, instead of trading my home resort reservation for SOs, I could elect DP instead if I desired, once merged, but it’s all or nothing and you lose the home week advantage). Nothing was told to us like we would be left out of Marriott if we didn’t buy a flex product, or anything like that. Salesperson said there’s absolutely no way Vistana developer units won’t be added to MVC DP access because Marriott users want in to the Vistana properties, especially WSJ, HRA, Mexico, etc. So I think we now may be getting pretty close to the truth here on what will really be rolling out. Developer = MVC DP access. Resale, probably will be able to access MVC DP for a fee, at initial rollout, for a set amount of time.

Anyway, I got moved through a couple of salespersons when it became clear I knew more than the average person coming in, such as exactly which unit is in phase 2 of the pool villas. I had to explain to one of the long term WSJ salespeople who has only ever sold WSJ, The Marriott Skim and why it made me nervous for the future. He claimed to have never heard of it and called in a Marriott guy that just came in to work there. He then agreed with me about the skim, and told the WSJ guy that Marriott calls it “breakage” and that it is intentional, and that is exactly why the points chart is adjusted according to the demand they think they will have for the coming year.


----------



## daviator (Oct 4, 2021)

alexadeparis said:


> Finally, the other offer was to take my developer SVR back, with 1/2 of what I paid as trade in $, and purchase Sheraton Flex.


Every deal I've been offered recently, they've offered to give me 100% of what I paid as trade in (different Vistana properties, but they were all 100%.)  Since 100% of what you paid is probably quite a bit less than they're charging today (if you've owned for a while), 50% seems really insulting.

A 1:28 ratio is a lot closer to reasonable on the Maui properties I own than 1:32, I still think it's a bit weak.  

I have yet to hear a single cogent reason why anybody should buy something today on rumors rather than just waiting and making decisions based on facts once the pull the curtain off the program changes.


----------



## alexadeparis (Oct 4, 2021)

daviator said:


> Every deal I've been offered recently, they've offered to give me 100% of what I paid as trade in (different Vistana properties, but they were all 100%.)  Since 100% of what you paid is probably quite a bit less than they're charging today (if you've owned for a while), 50% seems really insulting.
> 
> A 1:28 ratio is a lot closer to reasonable on the Maui properties I own than 1:32, I still think it's a bit weak.
> 
> I have yet to hear a single cogent reason why anybody should buy something today on rumors rather than just waiting and making decisions based on facts once the pull the curtain off the program changes.


Yeah I agree on the 50% trade in being stingy, but I think that may have been because I had already had traded in something else when I bought that in 2011 and hadn’t really paid that much. The 50% trade was pretty close to the actual dollars out of my pocket when I bought it. $14k net purchase price after my trade in (I got the unit I traded in for free) vs $11k offered for trade in.


----------



## trvlfan200 (Oct 4, 2021)

GabrielSmith said:


> I purchased a resale WKORV 2BR EOYO at the end of 2019 for $3000. (I know, GREAT DEAL!) I purchased from SMTN and had a great experience with Ryan. In the beginning of Sept my wife and I went to The Westin Los Cabos Resort Villas & Spa and stayed for a week in a 2BR ocean view for 56k SO. While we were there we went to an owners updated where they tried to sell us Westin Adventures (which we declined.) The very last package of 44k points EOY for $10k to make our resale "authorized" we also declined. The salesman told us that unless we made our unit "authorized" we would not be able to take advantage of the additional 80+ properties in MVC. We declined and got our free excursion to swim with dolphins, which was fantastic! I spoke to another Vistana rep when I got back state side and she tried to sell me on Westin Flex and told me that with the merger that Vistana and MVC are going to a "Pure Point" system and the new dashboard will be launched in April 2022. Who knows if that's actually correct or not. Needless to say, playing the waiting game to see what actually happens.





alexadeparis said:


> Yeah I agree on the 50% trade in being stingy, but I think that may have been because I had already had traded in something else when I bought that in 2011 and hadn’t really paid that much. The 50% trade was pretty close to the actual dollars out of my pocket when I bought it. $14k net purchase price after my trade in (I got the unit I traded in for free) vs $11k offered for trade in.



I am just back from 12 days with family on Kauai - 7 nights at WOVR Princeville, then 5 night at Marriott's Kauai Beach Club Villas (on a marketing pkg purchased pre-Covid). Had the unique (??) experience of going through 2 sales presentations in 12 days, one on each side of the upcoming merger. As you can imagine, each side had stories to tell, and none of it was entirely known by either of them. One item seems to be agreed to on both sides - Hyatt is not going to be integrated. One projected the purchase of Welk Resorts will be added to Hyatt, then the combination sold off.  Who knows?

For reference, I am 5 Star Elite.

The* Vistana* salespeople leaned hard on selling me 4 night of Flex points use to extend my weekly stays on Maui.
Really not appealing at $14k _plus _$1000 more MF annually.
Pushed hard that Mexico might not be part of the go forward group, but again, could not give me any facts.
They just wanted me to trade in the EOY Lagunamar unit for the "safer" choice of the 4 Flex nights.
They also pushed hard that 8-month reservations are going to be really difficult. Stated the 440,000 MVC owners were anxious to access the ownership inventory now shared solely among the 220,000 Vistana owners. I admit those numbers gave me pause, but I have Home Resort advantage at the Maui units (that I always use) and I know it isn't good math lately but I usually trade my Mexico units for either Cabo use or Bonvoy points anyway (flights and hotels). Plus I doubt that MVC wants to alienate top tier owners, so I decided the best strategy for me is to wait and see what actually gets announced.

Then I moved on to the *Marriott sales *presentation, they basically repeated a lot of what you already read above - along with vague data and some thinly veiled scare tactics. They started out at $37,000 and by then end were pushing $14k so I could "get MVC DP's and systems access" 13 months ahead (sound familiar?). Pushed on Mexico vs Hawaii and buying Flex points instead. Again, familiar. Then they pulled out their price increase charts from the last decade and said how "it is likely to go up before the spring merger" at which point I worked hard not to roll my eyes. A number of owners sitting in these presentations must be taking the "wait and see" approach, as multiple incentives were piled on top too. No need for me to pay even *more* MFs before I see what the future holds. So no sale, but gained as much info as I could. Then came here to "read more". ;-).

Oh and the 5 nt, 6 day "Encore return visit" pkgs offered by each were both "Kauai only" and at exactly same price - $1,295 for studio, $1695 for 1/1.
The Marriott people offered to extend their use to 24 months vs the 18 months at Vistana. Just fyi.


----------



## daviator (Oct 14, 2021)

I just finished an owner update presentation at WDW.  I am an owner here, but am here on an Encore Package purchased a year ago.  

It was relatively painless this time, they were trying to get me to trade in my EOY Westin Flex for EY, claiming that once the merger occurs, they will no longer allow trade-ins of existing ownerships, so this might be my last chance.  Marriott doesn't do trade-ins, they said.  This was not a persuasive argument, since I have relatives who own in Marriott's program and I know they have traded stuff in with them in the past.  They also told me that trade-ins were 90% of their business, and it doesn't make any sense that MVI would kill 90% of their business.  

They also wanted me to get to 5* elite (I'm 4*) because that will make me Chairman's Club in the new program, and I'll be grandfathered in to get Bonvoy Titanium, which they said will not be offered once the new program rolls out.  I doubt that too, and they (of course) couldn't tell me how current Vistana ownership would map into the MVC elite program, except that if you are 5* elite when they move to the new program, you will become Chairman's Club in MVC.  Again this was not persuasive, and I am mildly optimistic that if there is a merged elite program, my existing ownership may already be enough to get me to the highest level.

They offered me another Encore Package – all of them were for four nights in a Premium 1 BR – either $995 + $99 for $500 or 100K Bonvoy points, $695+$99 for $250 or 50K Bonvoy Points, or $1695 for 200K Bonvoy points or $1000.  I think the Encore Packages are a reasonable deal, and I bought the $695 package.  My rationale is that the new changes should be announced by the time I come back to use that package, so I'd want to do an owner update anyway to hear about them.  

One of the people I talked to admitted that they really didn't have any details on the new program and suspected that it would be announced later than people are expecting, like probably summer or fall of next year, not January as everyone expects.  But that, too, was just a guess.

Oh, they told me that they pay Marriott 1.25¢ per Bonvoy point (so 100,000 Bonvoy points costs them $1250.). No idea if that's true or not.  It seems a little high but not completely impossible.


----------



## samcar1 (Oct 20, 2021)

I had spoken to a manager a few months ago who told me not to upgrade to 5* from 4*.  He said I would be titanium. We should be getting an email by year’s end and the program should roll out in April.  I think 4 and 5 will be titanium


----------



## DagnyT (Nov 11, 2021)

So I got a pretty funny call yesterday from some sales rep from Vistana basically saying, hey, you've been "specically" selected to help find a way to get you from 3* to 4* before the Marriott merger kicks and all the pricing goes up. Some highlights:


Because the rep was calling from "corporate" and calls are recorded, she couldn't create a bunch of "fluff" like they normally do in the owner updates.
(So no making up crap to sell you stuff.) 
The claim is that the points/options when I bought was much lower and once the merger completes, the value will be up above $.71 per point/option and there will ONLY be block pricing and not just add some options here or there, so I should upgrade now and lock in all these great benefits before they're unaffordable.
She really didn't have any information about how things would work after the merger (and couldn't make anything up because of the recording), but... right now 148,100 gets you 1 week in a 2 bedroom. You're at 220K in the SF. So why don't I just get the 139K options and go to 4*, which is way more desirable. And then you'l have enough to get you to 2 weeks in a 2 bedroom anywhere in the new Marriott system.
When I asked how she knew this because she didn't have any information about how this was going to work, her answer was... common sense.
OK, out of curiosity, what's it going to cost? Because she said something about under $.50/option earlier, which is ridiculous, so what are they offering? Well, she doesn't know because that's contracts.... so basically I said, tell me what it's going to cost and I'll see what I think.
OK, so today, I get on a Teams call with her. She stalls trying to pitch the same thing before getting the contracts guy on.
I did finally get to the payoff, which was to see the actual.

Here's what they offered:

Upgrade to 359K options (so 4*) in Sheraton Flex.
Retail Price: $254,172 (note that they showed Marriott grids at $272K for 175,000 points)
They knocked off about $199K on current value and some other incentive
So with trade in, final purchase at $54,998
Waive money down (their financing currently running 13.99% on 15 yrs, so no payments 60 days so you can re-fi)
Waive 2022 maintenance fees. So no fees till 2023
Receive full 359K options for 2022 with use extended to 12/31/2024
Second offfer was to go up to 257,700, which would cost another $20K, but maintain the chance to get the offer above at the same pricing for some period of time.

So there you go.

Didn't do it for obvious reasons. If I really needed another 100K+ options (which I don't at this point) I would definitely not take SF and there are much cheaper ways to go.
Getting ready to head to Steamboat and SVV over the next few weeks, so will be curious as to what they pitch as it gets closer to year-end....


----------



## Veritoalsol (Nov 22, 2021)

HI! We went to our owners update at Lagunamar this morning. We only have resales (one in Lagunamar and the other one at SVV for the Staroptions). They basically offered us 44,000 staroptions in westin aventuras for $11,242  with the "one time only" 10% discount for an EOY week, throwing in 3 vouchers of 330,000 bonvoy points for 2275 each. That would grandfather in our Westin Lagunamar resale (its a 2 bedroom lockoff), which would (as we are told) allow us to have access to the MVC network and allow us to gain Bonvoy points every year. To grandfather in both properties, the price was about $19,000. That's a lot of money for us right now - so we did not take that (please tell me i was wrong!). They did offer us an additional week for a one time use, that would also lock in the existing offer for 18 months - at which point my DH caved.  Genius of timeshares - please share your thoughts! Part of me is a bit scared of getting locked out of the MVC network if they have access to our properties and that means reservations get impossible. Your wisdom is welcome. The date they mentioned for the merger to be complete was April 2022. We are planning on coming back in March 2022 in any case. Thanks!


----------



## alexadeparis (Nov 22, 2021)

There is a very good chance that MVC may offer a one time deal for you to become part of the new group for a minimum cost. Is that worth $10,000 to minimize the risk that they won't? Only you can decide. When MVC changed to points they offered some resale owners the chance to become legit. Its very likely that will happen again.


----------



## rcv82 (Nov 22, 2021)

Veritoalsol said:


> Part of me is a bit scared of getting locked out of the MVC network if they have access to our properties and that means reservations get impossible. Your wisdom is welcome. The date they mentioned for the merger to be complete was April 2022. We are planning on coming back in March 2022 in any case. Thanks!



While they could potentially change the way StarOptions work, they really can’t mess with your underlying ownerships. So you should always be able to use your home weeks as you can now from 8 to 12 months out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cubigbird (Nov 23, 2021)

Veritoalsol said:


> They did offer us an additional week for a one time use, that would also lock in the existing offer for 18 months - at which point my DH caved.



Sounds like you purchased an encore package. Those can be good deals if you use them wisely.  We used one in the past as part of a resale retro transaction. 

With the announcement of a combined program coming very soon, we are holding off on doing anything more.  Cash is king at this point and there are too many different stories coming from sales.  Marriott is going to use this combination as an opportunity to generate more revenue.  They wouldn’t have bought Vistana otherwise.   You didn’t miss out.


----------



## Veritoalsol (Nov 24, 2021)

Thank you @cubigbird - we're planning on coming back in March so will post here whatever comes out from my owners update


----------



## Austinbe (Dec 5, 2021)

MommaBear said:


> I just went to a MVC presentation, and for the small sum of $45,000, I could buy into the Marriott club and be guaranteed entrance "because everyone in Vistana is going to have to do this to have access to Marriott resorts". Don't think it's going to happen this way, but I'm sure some people have been sucked in.


I was just told the same thing yesterday but I only had to give them something like $12k more.  I said no.


----------



## Mowogo (Dec 5, 2021)

rcv82 said:


> While they could potentially change the way StarOptions work, they really can’t mess with your underlying ownerships. So you should always be able to use your home weeks as you can now from 8 to 12 months out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'd say they won't change how StarOptions work, but that the pool of inventory is going to be much smaller and only grow smaller as Voluntary properties sell out and owners moving their ownership to trading within DC.  The underlying week at the home resort will still exist and exchange in Interval as a week, but anything more than that will depend on how the new program handles the different types of ownerships


----------



## fasha39 (Dec 16, 2021)

WLM presentation this week; the usual theatrical praise/outrage that we are resale owners, adamant that resale owners won’t be able access MVC - asked for proof and was told that “the head guy” said it to the salespeople at a meeting, of course pushed Aventuras, still offering 10% discount plus at least 175,000 Bonvoy points or double options with purchase, no idea when merger will happen other than in 2022, hyped how many Bonvoy points we’d have if option were converted and somewhat interestingly said that post merger all programs will remain separate.  I asked for more specifics, the explanation was pretty wobbly but sounds like they won’t rebrand all under one umbrella, grouped with “like” brands. Also asked about what ratio will be used for Vistana options to MVC points, suggestion was that our WKORV OV would equal the same in MVC - reiterated several times that “Ka’anapalI is like gold”, my response was “excellent, happy to hear that so when I use it for MVC it’ll be golden as well” - took more than a few seconds to be reminded that that could only happen if we retro.

So in the end nobody knows anything about post merger, I do not believe resale owners will be shut out - as others have said there may be a fee of some sort to join as was done in MVC prior.  This salesperson was harmless, not aggressive but clearly didn’t know anything and just used the same old tactics. We hadn’t done an update for a few years, likely be a few before do it again - took the $100 credit.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Dec 16, 2021)

All of this speculation is really just that.  Think of how badly Marriott has handled the hotel takeover.  They really didn't do us any favors with our 700,000 points we had at one time.  I am talking hotel side, but I think it's a good foreshadowing of the future with Marriott Vacation Club.


----------



## Mowogo (Dec 16, 2021)

rickandcindy23 said:


> All of this speculation is really just that.  Think of how badly Marriott has handled the hotel takeover.  They really didn't do us any favors with our 700,000 points we had at one time.  I am talking hotel side, but I think it's a good foreshadowing of the future with Marriott Vacation Club.


Completely separate companies and different levels of pain will go to different types of owners.  Voluntary owners will see no change, Mandatory slowly will become more like Voluntary as VSN inventory moves over to the new program.  The questions are really for the Developer purchased weeks and points.


----------



## VacationForever (Dec 16, 2021)

Mowogo said:


> Completely separate companies and different levels of pain will go to different types of owners.  Voluntary owners will see no change, Mandatory slowly will become more like Voluntary as VSN inventory moves over to the new program.  The questions are really for the Developer purchased weeks and points.


I don't believe VSN inventory will get "moved".  The model will be that MVC DC members can book VSN inventory at 8 months.  Vistana developer purchased weeks and points will be able to book MVC DC inventory at 8 months as well.


----------



## Mowogo (Dec 16, 2021)

VacationForever said:


> I don't believe VSN inventory will get "moved".  The model will be that MVC DC members can book VSN inventory at 8 months.  Vistana developer purchased weeks and points will be able to book MVC DC inventory at 8 months as well.


We know that the new system has a unified currency.  We know that the unified system will look a lot more like DC which functions at 13 months for exchanges. And inventory acquired through ROFR or through upgrades is likely to deposit into the new system directly which would in effect remove the inventory from VSN, just a much slower draw down of inventory.  If Flex has a free/low cost way to switch to the new system then you could have a lot of inventory coming out of VSN quicker.  MVC has zero incentives to support VSN long term.


----------



## dioxide45 (Dec 16, 2021)

Mowogo said:


> We know that the new system has a unified currency.  We know that the unified system will look a lot more like DC which functions at 13 months for exchanges. And inventory acquired through ROFR or through upgrades is likely to deposit into the new system directly which would in effect remove the inventory from VSN, just a much slower draw down of inventory.  If Flex has a free/low cost way to switch to the new system then you could have a lot of inventory coming out of VSN quicker.  MVC has zero incentives to support VSN long term.


How do we know this? Nothing has been announced. We just know they are working on a single point product for sale and reservations. What is looks like, no one really knows. It could very well be more like DC, but we don't know anything beyond a unified currency.


----------



## CPNY (Dec 16, 2021)

Mowogo said:


> We know that the new system has a unified currency.  We know that the unified system will look a lot more like DC which functions at 13 months for exchanges. And inventory acquired through ROFR or through upgrades is likely to deposit into the new system directly which would in effect remove the inventory from VSN, just a much slower draw down of inventory.  If Flex has a free/low cost way to switch to the new system then you could have a lot of inventory coming out of VSN quicker.  MVC has zero incentives to support VSN long term.


This is why most Vistana owners are not happy that Marriott bought Vistana. MVC Has zero incentives to support any of its customers. It seems that They are the greediest of all timeshare companies.


----------



## VacationForever (Dec 16, 2021)

Mowogo said:


> We know that the new system has a unified currency.  We know that the unified system will look a lot more like DC which functions at 13 months for exchanges. And inventory acquired through ROFR or through upgrades is likely to deposit into the new system directly which would in effect remove the inventory from VSN, just a much slower draw down of inventory.  If Flex has a free/low cost way to switch to the new system then you could have a lot of inventory coming out of VSN quicker.  MVC has zero incentives to support VSN long term.


Although the new system has not been announced, I don't believe there will be a new unified currency.  Some of the discussions I had with the salespeople were that the system will resemble the cross-booking model of the Wyndham/Worldmark/Shell systems.


----------



## wuzupdawk (Dec 20, 2021)

samcar1 said:


> I had spoken to a manager a few months ago who told me not to upgrade to 5* from 4*.  He said I would be titanium. We should be getting an email by year’s end and the program should roll out in April.  I think 4 and 5 will be titanium


We had an owners update at the end of October (Westin Nanea) and were told 4* "might" be given Bonvoy Platinum status in the new year, but no guarantees --- it's only rumour and speculation at this point. She predicted that 5* would be Platinum for sure, and that neither 4* nor 5* would be given Titanium status.

We added 1-wk annual Nanea Oceanfront to complement our 2-wk EOY for probably too much $$$ and received 695,000 Bonvoy pts., which we should be able to use at the JW Marriott in Cabo next year, so I don't feel completely taken advantage of LOL.


----------



## rcv82 (Dec 20, 2021)

wuzupdawk said:


> She predicted that 5* would be Platinum for sure, and that neither 4* nor 5* would be given Titanium status.



Given that 5* already gets Platinum this hardly is impressive. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Castle1967 (Apr 13, 2022)

iowaguy09 said:


> Just chumming for any TUGGERS with recent owner updates that included discussions about how the MVC/WVC/SVC consolidation (yes, still speculative at best) might go down?



I just had an owner's update while vacationing in Arizona (April 1, 2022 thru April 11, 2022) and going forward 3-star elite will be upgraded to lifetime Platinum and will become Executive Level Members with Marriott Vacation Club (see attached jpeg).
Current 4-star Elite will become lifetime Titanium and will be recognized as Presidential Level Members with Marriott Vacation Club. Depending on the amount of ownership (star options), owners may be recognized as Chairman Level Members with Marriott Vacation Club. The way it was explained to me is it will be based on a conversion equation from Star Options to Destination Points (the currency used by Marriott to book time at their vacation resorts).
Five-star elite will be lifetime Titanium and will be recognized as Chairman Level Members with Marriott Vacation Club.

During the update, we were told they are currently in a soft rollout and the full rollout will happen in about a month (mid to late May).

***Another thing to be aware of is if you own any Aventuras in Puerta Vallarta, you may want to call and convert it to Westin Flex as they have determined they are unable to convert the Westin in Puerta Vallarta to Villas, due to some issues with accomodating previous timeshare owners at the property before the hotel was converted to a Westin. This means you will only be able to use your ownership at Lagunamar or Los Cabos. So, pay the $$ and convert to Westin Flex.


----------



## byeloe (Apr 13, 2022)

Castle1967 said:


> This means you will only be able to use your ownership at Lagunamar or Los Cabos. So, pay the $$ and convert to Westin Flex.


I would wait and see what the actual program is, before giving them any more$$.  I don't know how many owners purchased Aventuras for the purpose of going to Puerto Vallarta.   You can still get to most of the Westin Flex resorts at 8 months


----------



## daviator (Apr 13, 2022)

Castle1967 said:


> I just had an owner's update while vacationing in Arizona (April 1, 2022 thru April 11, 2022) and going forward 3-star elite will be upgraded to lifetime Platinum and will become Executive Level Members with Marriott Vacation Club (see attached jpeg).
> Current 4-star Elite will become lifetime Titanium and will be recognized as Presidential Level Members with Marriott Vacation Club. Depending on the amount of ownership (star options), owners may be recognized as Chairman Level Members with Marriott Vacation Club. The way it was explained to me is it will be based on a conversion equation from Star Options to Destination Points (the currency used by Marriott to book time at their vacation resorts).
> Five-star elite will be lifetime Titanium and will be recognized as Chairman Level Members with Marriott Vacation Club.
> 
> ...


It’s not really “lifetime“ Platinum or Titanium, lifetime status is something different that you earn through stays and by maintaining status for many years.  It may seem effectively the same, since if you continue to own your timeshare you will continue to receive the Bonvoy status, but if you no longer own your timeshare, your Bonvoy status will go away too.

The true lifetime status continues regardless what you own. 

But so long as you keep your timeshare, the difference may be pretty meaningless since you’ll keep your Bonvoy status either way.

Thanks for posting about your owner update.


----------



## cubigbird (Apr 13, 2022)

Castle1967 said:


> I just had an owner's update while vacationing in Arizona (April 1, 2022 thru April 11, 2022) and going forward 3-star elite will be upgraded to lifetime Platinum and will become Executive Level Members with Marriott Vacation Club (see attached jpeg).
> Current 4-star Elite will become lifetime Titanium and will be recognized as Presidential Level Members with Marriott Vacation Club. Depending on the amount of ownership (star options), owners may be recognized as Chairman Level Members with Marriott Vacation Club. The way it was explained to me is it will be based on a conversion equation from Star Options to Destination Points (the currency used by Marriott to book time at their vacation resorts).
> Five-star elite will be lifetime Titanium and will be recognized as Chairman Level Members with Marriott Vacation Club.
> 
> ...


I am not sure that’s exactly true about Puerto Vallarta.  Who knows.  We may never know.  In any case, it has been talked about by upper management in investor meetings that they were looking to sell off that property entirely.  It has not yet hapenned but it’s widely known for some time that nothing is likely going to happen there.  I agree with others, I would wait and see how this all plays out before spending money emotionally with the developer.  The level of trust people place in sales people is astounding.  Aventuras has its place, if you prefer 12 month priority at Cabo or are flexible with Lagunamar availability at 12 months.  The developer is famous for telling you what you bought before is now bad.  Sales depends on solutions to problems created.


----------



## tschwa2 (Apr 13, 2022)

daviator said:


> It’s not really “lifetime“ Platinum or Titanium, lifetime status is something different that you earn through stays and by maintaining status for many years.  It may seem effectively the same, since if you continue to own your timeshare you will continue to receive the Bonvoy status, but if you no longer own your timeshare, your Bonvoy status will go away too.
> 
> The true lifetime status continues regardless what you own.
> 
> ...


It can also really help get you to true platinum lifetime status, I don't think you can get true lifetime titanium unless you are already grandfathered.   Once you have had 10 years of platinum and 600 elite nights you are platinum for life.  It doesn't matter if your platinum status was a result of timeshare ownership. So once you meet the qualifications for platinum for life you will still have it even without the timeshare.


----------

