# Overvaluing low mfs?



## Railman83 (Apr 20, 2018)

A 436k Bali Hai contract just went for $8650 on EBay.

A lovely contract no doubt and the price makes me feel great about the 375k contract I bought at Bali Hai last month for $1600 total?

But is it a good deal for a resale?   Assuming the buyer was not a mega renter or VIP, my rough calculations show it would take 8-12 years to break even over renting or a low/free contact(s) to accomplish the same amount of vacation time in Wyndham resorts.  That is with some very favorable assumptions.

Thoughts?


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## Avislo (Apr 20, 2018)

A wise and skilled person that put together a lot of deals in the settlement of civil rights complaints told me the answer to a continuing office debate on when the parties are happy with the settlement.  His response was when the parties sign  the agreement.  I think this advise would be equally applicable to timeshare resale agreements.


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## scootr5 (Apr 20, 2018)

IMHO It's a good deal _if_ they intend to hold on to it for 15 years or more. Sometimes people get too wrapped up in the low-fee resorts and fail to see the big picture.


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## Railman83 (Apr 20, 2018)

Avislo said:


> A wise and skilled person that put together a lot of deals in the settlement of civil rights complaints told me the answer to a continuing office debate on when the parties are happy with the settlement.  His response was when the parties sign  the agreement.  I think this advise would be equally applicable to timeshare resale agreements.



I deal in settlements daily and view the notion that settlements are a win-win as an intellectually lazy notion, particularly in cases where the underlying grievance is being settled for nuisance value.

But we aren’t talking about a settlement between parties to avoid a mutual nightmare of protracted litigation.  We are talking about a free market exchange and determining value.   Extending your metaphor if they would have bought retail for 50k he’d have got a good deal because, well, both parties signed it.

I am asking the question as to whether this was a good deal or not from a community that understands the product.  I think a case could be made over some period of time they would come out ahead of a cheaper high mf contract but there are so many unknowns over 10-15 years that it is hard to gauge and I was looking for some others to provide their thought processes over whether this was a good deal or not.

For example, if Wyndham went bankrupt in five years the person who had a higher mf contract for free definitely came out ahead.  What is the mf rate of increase is higher at Bali Hai by a point——at the end of 15 years their fees become average.

Curious on how others view this.


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## Braindead (Apr 20, 2018)

The Bali Hai contract MFs is $2.00 per thousand points lower than CWA.
CWA has been selling for around $10.00 per thousand points
The Bali Hai sold for about $20.00 per thousand points
The Bali Hai contract will pay for itself in about 5 years verses a CWA contract if you don’t need the ARP resorts that come with CWA


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## Railman83 (Apr 20, 2018)

Braindead said:


> Tha Bali Hai contract MFs is $2.00 per thousand points lower than CWA.
> CWA has been selling for around $10.00 per thousand points
> The Bali Hai sold for about $20.00 per thousand points
> The Bali Hai contract will pay for itself in about 5 years verses a CWA contract if you don’t need the ARP resorts that come with CWA



For example, if Ron were around he might take the approach that 436k plus two years of stripping contract = X rental dollars and be able to say whether or not he thought the difference between the purchase price and rental price of stripped contact would give him a comfortable margin to make deal.   

Others who use only for personal use or Princeville lovers who need ARP might value against competing local properties at their chosen time instead of rental value or general system value.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 20, 2018)

ARP and resort location is valuable to many owners. 

Look at Wyndham Royal Vista ... mfs are more than lesser resorts, all units are points only but with ONLY 90 units it is small. But it has less than 10% OCEANFRONT 2/2 units .. which has caused ANST and GLEE. My avartar is a picture from one of those OF 2/2 units .. full length balcony off both BDRs and Living room .. kitchen duty was just soooo farrrr from the ocean (other side of open LR .... lol). Balcony over sand dune, beach, rolling waves. And which Pompano Beach resorts cost MORE points and is the hardest to get into .... Royal Vista, hands down. Still just under $1400MF per PRIME SEASON week in those 2/2 beachfront units ... if you are lucky to get one!

PS Got one ONCE on my first stay for 3 nights ... also, booked a unit which my renter got, HAPPIEST renter ever!


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## Avislo (Apr 20, 2018)

As it relates to a developer purchase, the rule of thumb definition of happy on the purchase would probably apply.  Both sides presumably would be happy with the provision that permits the buyer to get out of the contract within X number of days. Ron appears to still be around maybe he could jump in on if what you suggested he might do pertaining to stripping of the contract to get his margins to make the deal.  Heck, maybe a contract stripper got it.


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## Braindead (Apr 20, 2018)

Railman83 said:


> For example, if Ron were around he might take the approach that 436k plus two years of stripping contract = X rental dollars and be able to say whether or not he thought the difference between the purchase price and rental price of stripped contact would give him a comfortable margin to make deal.
> 
> Others who use only for personal use or Princeville lovers who need ARP might value against competing local properties at their chosen time instead of rental value or general system value.





Avislo said:


> As it relates to a developer purchase, the rule of thumb definition of happy on the purchase would probably apply.  Both sides presumably would be happy with the provision that permits the buyer to get out of the contract within X number of days. Ron appears to still be around maybe he could jump in on if what you suggested he might do pertaining to stripping of the contract to get his margins to make the deal.  Heck, maybe a contract stripper got it.


Stripping of contracts is a moot point as you can no longer do it and it has nothing to do with the value of the contract that sold last night


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## Braindead (Apr 20, 2018)

Avislo said:


> Heck, maybe a contract stripper got it.


You been around here long ? Thought you would’ve known any stripping of contracts stopped about a year ago.
Hint-don’t buy contracts with plans of becoming a contract stripper!!


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## raygo123 (Apr 20, 2018)

When where and for how much. Both access and deeded provide different attributes.  I would like to see a couple bids on prime San Francisco.

Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk


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## Railman83 (Apr 20, 2018)

Braindead said:


> You been around here long ? Thought you would’ve known any stripping of contracts stopped about a year ago.
> Hint-don’t buy contracts with plans of becoming a contract stripper!!


I understand you can’t strip anymore I was using it as an example of how different people could approach valuing a contract.

I gave the example because the first response was essentially it must be good for the person or they wouldn’t have done it; and I was hoping for some deeper thought.


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## vice (Apr 20, 2018)

I was wondering if anyone would bring up that $8650 Bali Hai, I was pretty shocked to see it go so high. Looked like it had several highish bidders and it wasn't a private listing so I am assuming it was legit. Prices do seem to be creeping up in general but perhaps we are at the dawn of big bump in resale prices that is the result of Ovations eliminating much of the bottom of the market and establishing a floor above $0. Maybe someone posted that Wyndham points are moving to the blockchain and we now have bitcoin speculators in the market. (JK but blockchain would be perfect for transparent timeshare point accountability). I am also thinking with Wyndham having the ability to catch and hold back virtually all of the desirable reservations that are now released and then funnel them to Extra Holidays, they themselves need more points as well as any renters that are still making a go of it in the Wyndham rental market. The guy that likes to stay in Wyndham resorts but figured out it was cheaper to rent from an owner than buy resale himself, now the math isn't so clear and his go to agent may have retired last year. In short everyone from small Silver VIP owner to megarenter to Wyndham needs more points to accomplish what they used to with less points. End result, purchase price of resale points gradually rises until a couple of bulls run up the price of a medium sized Bali Hai contract to $8650. If prices continue upward and follow the  traditional "summer bump" we may be at $20 per thousand for CWA and other mediocre maintenance fee contracts before you know it.


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## Railman83 (Apr 20, 2018)

Also, not to harp on this, but it occurs to me that I personally might have bought this contract at about 4K had it been my first or second contact but value it less as my point stack has grown.

I suppose there is a point that, even if given a great contract for free you wouldn’t take it because you have reached diminishing returns.   Though here if you got for free you could presumably sell at a profit


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## vice (Apr 20, 2018)

A 654 K Bali Hai was recently listed on eBay for Buy it Now for $8995 plus $800 closing. A relative bargain I guess but I don't think it is an ultra low mf contract. $4.92 per 1000 points is what I calculated it at. I haven't kept a close eye on what is considered ultra low vs. pretty low vs. average lately.


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## Roger830 (Apr 20, 2018)

It would make sense for Wyndham to buy it, then sell it for $75,000.

I noticed that a 200K Royai Garden went for $1800 + $800 closing = $2600.
That seems high.


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## Braindead (Apr 20, 2018)

CWA buying Bali Hai contracts ? I’ve heard rumblings at owner updates for a couple of years that CWA is coming to Hawaii via Bali Hai.


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## Railman83 (Apr 20, 2018)

Braindead said:


> CWA buying Bali Hai contracts ? I’ve heard rumblings at owner updates for a couple of years that CWA is coming to Hawaii via Bali Hai.



My fear has always been that my “at 10 months points are points” account will be crushed as CWA grows and everyone takes inventory out 13 months in advance, hence nothing left.

I am banking on that not happening because most people have windows of travel tied to school and aren’t good at planning a year in advance.  That said, I fully expect availability Christmas and summers to shut me out past 10 months at some point in my ownership.  Luckily I’m looking for Jan-Feb mostly.


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## uscav8r (Apr 20, 2018)

vice said:


> A 654 K Bali Hai was recently listed on eBay for Buy it Now for $8995 plus $800 closing. A relative bargain I guess but I don't think it is an ultra low mf contract. $4.92 per 1000 points is what I calculated it at. I haven't kept a close eye on what is considered ultra low vs. pretty low vs. average lately.



Bali Hai UDI is $4.12/1000 points including the Program Fee, so your number is way inflated. Converted fixed weeks can be more expensive than UDI... wonder if that is the case here. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vice (Apr 20, 2018)

uscav8r said:


> Bali Hai UDI is $4.12/1000 points including the Program Fee, so your number is way inflated. Converted fixed weeks can be more expensive than UDI... wonder if that is the case here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, I am just basing the calculation off what is stated in the listing, knowing it may not be accurate. May well be converted weeks with that odd number of points.


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## Dave Landry (Apr 20, 2018)

Was watching that auction myself. Even thought about putting in a bid but it grew tremendously in the last few minutes. I was thinking that I spent too much for my Panama city Beach contract but seeing this really makes me happy to have it already .I personally wouldn't have spent any more than 3000 for it as it is only 65 cents per thousand less and the payback would be very long for me. I am still hoping to be able to get good deals renting from platinum owners when I use up the points owned


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## ronparise (Apr 20, 2018)

Braindead said:


> You been around here long ? Thought you would’ve known any stripping of contracts stopped about a year ago.
> Hint-don’t buy contracts with plans of becoming a contract stripper!!



Oh but you can still strip points, just not in the aggressive fashion I used to do it

This contract is 436000 points for $8500 mf will be roughly let’s assume mf at $150 a month and let’s further assume settlement will be in 6 months. And that the contract comes complete with all 2018 points in it

I can immediately make 2 one bedroom reservation with the 2018 points and 2 reservations  for sometime in 2019 with my 2019 points and in dec 2018 I can make two reservations for Jan 2020.

So $150 x 18 months = $2700 mf plus the $8500 purchase price = $11,200

Then sell the contract for penny a point or $4200. Net cost is $7000

So net cost of about just $1000 per vacation

That’s not stripping points like I used to doe it, but it is using 3 years or points in 18 months   And the contract is now stripped of points


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## Braindead (Apr 20, 2018)

ronparise said:


> Oh but you can still strip points, just not in the aggressive fashion I used to do it
> 
> This contract is 436000 points for $8500 mf will be roughly let’s assume mf at $150 a month and let’s further assume settlement will be in 6 months. And that the contract comes complete with all 2018 points in it
> 
> ...


As you say —not like you use too— is what I was referencing. You can’t use all of the 2019 & 2020 points in the first few months of 2018 and then get rid of the contract like you use to!


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## Railman83 (Apr 20, 2018)

ronparise said:


> Oh but you can still strip points, just not in the aggressive fashion I used to do it
> 
> This contract is 436000 points for $8500 mf will be roughly let’s assume mf at $150 a month and let’s further assume settlement will be in 6 months. And that the contract comes complete with all 2018 points in it
> 
> ...


It’s like Godfather part III, they keep pulling him back in.


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## Braindead (Apr 20, 2018)

Railman83 said:


> It’s like Godfather part III, they keep pulling him back in.


In Rons example he is tying up the 2019 & 2020 points but not stripping the contracts. If Ron were to sell the contract in 2018 in his example the 2019 & 2020 reservations would be cancelled. As a result the 2019 & 2020 points would get transferred with the contract


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## Braindead (Apr 21, 2018)

vice said:


> A 654 K Bali Hai was recently listed on eBay for Buy it Now for $8995 plus $800 closing. A relative bargain I guess but I don't think it is an ultra low mf contract. $4.92 per 1000 points is what I calculated it at. I haven't kept a close eye on what is considered ultra low vs. pretty low vs. average lately.


This contract and another Bali Hai that was just listed yesterday sold. The contract listed yesterday was 308,000 even year points.
You can’t tell what they brought as offers were accepted for less than asking price


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## Roger830 (Apr 21, 2018)

Also a 1,129,000 National Harbor went for $10,000.

That was a bargain. Seller has no feedback selling, but has other timeshare listings.


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## ronparise (Apr 21, 2018)

Braindead said:


> In Rons example he is tying up the 2019 & 2020 points but not stripping the contracts. If Ron were to sell the contract in 2018 in his example the 2019 & 2020 reservations would be cancelled. As a result the 2019 & 2020 points would get transferred with the contract




The thing is you can get a vacation or two done before you pay a a full years maintenance fee. Whether you call it stripping points or stripping vacations you are getting some use out of a new purchase before you pay for thatuse And whether you then sell the contract or hold it makes no difference you have still “gamed” the system

I used to get the use of 3 years of points  in the first few months of ownership and then I’d hold  the contract or flip it back to Wyndham. You can’t do that now 

But Now, depending on the purchase date you can use 2 years in the first few months of ownership.and then either hold or sell the contract. I see that as the same basic technique, just not as profitable


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## ronparise (Apr 21, 2018)

Braindead said:


> In Rons example he is tying up the 2019 & 2020 points but not stripping the contracts. If Ron were to sell the contract in 2018 in his example the 2019 & 2020 reservations would be cancelled. As a result the 2019 & 2020 points would get transferred with the contract



No. I am using all the 2018, 2019 and 2020 points but only paying 13 to 18 months mf.  

Buy in late 2018 and make a 2018, 2019  and Jan 2020 reservation 

pay nov and dec 2018 mf
Pay all of 2019 mf 

So enjoy 3 years of vacations for 14 months mf


I didn’t just tie up those reservations, I used them


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## ronparise (Apr 21, 2018)

Back to the question implied by the original post. And that is how much is too much to pay for a low mf contract

Here’s the thing

The way to use a low mf contract is to use the points for vacations at resorts with low point requirements 

For example use Bali Hai points at Fairfield glade. A two bedroom theee is 154000 points. So our Bali hai will get roughly 3 weeks a year in prime season 

In 5 years that 15 vacations 
MF in 5 years is about $10000 and the purchase price is $8500.  And let’s assume the value of the contract after 5 years is a penny a point 

So cost is 18500-4500 = 14000 /15= less than $1000 per vacation. I think that’s ok

If our buyer was to get a $7/1000 mf contract for free  is cost per vacation will be 154000 points x 7/1000 = almost $1100 per vacation    

Which is the better deal

Certainly our buyer could have done better, but he didn’t do bad


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## Braindead (Apr 21, 2018)

ronparise said:


> No. I am using all the 2018, 2019 and 2020 points but only paying 13 to 18 months mf.
> 
> Buy in late 2018 and make a 2018, 2019  and Jan 2020 reservation
> 
> ...


It all depends on what we are going to call “stripping the contract”. You are using the 2020 points in 2020. I don’t call that “stripping the contract” and I never considered that to be selling a “stripped contract “when it was discussed prior to May 2017.

If you use 2020 points in January 2020. Then sell that contract it will not be transferred until June at the earliest.
The new owner might go 6-7 months before using 2021 points for a 2021 reservation.
 When “stripped contracts” were sold Wyndham might of transferred the contract in 2 months so the new owner would not be able to use the first use years points in that year for over 2 1\2 years.

I really don’t think your comparing apples to apples in how “stripping the contract “ was discussed prior. Prior the buyer could have the contract transferred today with the January 1, 2021 being the first use points available that’s what I called “a stripped contract” that can’t happen today


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## Braindead (Apr 21, 2018)

For those that are new here since May 2017 and confused about “stripping the contract”.
Some buyers of resale contracts in the past would time their purchase to where they could use 4 years of points for paying about 1 year of MFs.
They purchased contracts for about the cost of a years MFs. The contracts would go into their VIP Platinum account. Ounce in the Platinum account it was possible to use 4 years of points while paying about a year of MFs. Add in some Platinum discounts and upgrades those 4 years worth of points could turn into the equivalent of 10 years of points. For 10 years worth of points their total cost was about 2 years of MFs[purchase was equivalent to 1 year of MFs plus the 1 year of MFs they paid. Then they sometimes sold those contracts to a blind entity [maybe Wyndham]
 Ron would fully inform the buyers the contracts were stripped while selling or giving the contracts away. While others resold the contracts not disclosing the contracts were stripped with the buyers receiving stripped contracts and paying over 2 years of MFs plus the purchase price before getting current points.

That’s not possible anymore. That’s a major reason why rental rates have increased dramatically in the last year. It might also be one of the reasons why resale prices are going up


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## Cyrus24 (Apr 21, 2018)

Good explanation Braindead.  This 'stripping' process, while legal, is why they took our Credit Pool away.  They could have stopped the stripping without taking away the credit pool, IMHO.  I'm very angry at Wyndham for not looking out for us little people when they did away with the credit pool just, so it seems, to get at the account strippers.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Apr 21, 2018)

ronparise said:


> Oh but you can still strip points, just not in the aggressive fashion I used to do it
> 
> This contract is 436000 points for $8500 mf will be roughly let’s assume mf at $150 a month and let’s further assume settlement will be in 6 months. And that the contract comes complete with all 2018 points in it
> 
> ...



Ron - your insight is always interesting and worth reading .

At $ 4200 - the contract might not sell as fast as your famous Canterbury -bargain deal - but if someone already has 18 months+ months of TS vacations booked , it could may sense to a buyer get a deal on a good contract at a resort  they want , but don’ t need the points or use asap  .

PS - I believe the person who “bought “Ron’s bargain Canterbury is a TUG member and was very pleased with the TS contract acquisition . The monthly MF cost until the points reloaded was less than what a similar contract would likely have cost resale and the payments were monthly to Wyndham instead of a lump sum .


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## Railman83 (Apr 21, 2018)

They cancel reservations while transferring so get those vac quick


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Apr 21, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> ... They could have stopped the stripping without taking away the credit pool, IMHO.  I'm very angry at Wyndham for not looking out for us little people when they did away with the credit pool just, so it seems, to get at the account strippers.



As I understood it from reading TUG .An owner credit pooled point "now" and got back “someone else’s “ deposited points when they booked a reservation .
 The  TUG Wyndham theorists have speculated that the pool’s points were out of whack for unknown reasons and Wyndham needed to fix this .

Stripping contracts were not the reason for the theorized imbalances .

They were - part of the reason Ron’s acct(s) showed more points and reservations than the account had in ownership . This caused / triggered the suspension of use and audit procedure for some Wyndham owners & TUG members .
Ron’s numerous TUG posts can add details if any new reader is interested .

Cyrus24 - I don’t disagree that taking away the credit pool was a loss for owners use flexibility .


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## Roger830 (Apr 21, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> PS - I believe the person who “bought “Ron’s bargain Canterbury is a TUG member and was very pleased with the TS contract acquisition . The monthly MF cost until the points reloaded was less than what a similar contract would likely have cost resale and the payments were monthly to Wyndham instead of a lump sum .



I wonder if that person is still pleased with a stripped contract and paying mf without being able to use future year's points because there is no credit pool.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Apr 21, 2018)

Roger830 said:


> I wonder if that person is still pleased with a stripped contract and paying mf without being able to use future year's points because there is no credit pool.



Go to "Bargain Deals" put Canterbury in the search box & read the whole thread 
Ron;s post listing it was April 18 2016


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## Cyrus24 (Apr 21, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Go to "Bargain Deals" put Canterbury in the search box & read the whole thread
> Ron;s post listing it was April 18 2016


Worth the read.  Canterbury under the terms of that 'sale' were pretty good, IF, the 'buyer' did not have a need for points at closing.  Getting a large, low MF contract was what made it such a good deal.


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## Roger830 (Apr 21, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Go to "Bargain Deals" put Canterbury in the search box & read the whole thread
> Ron;s post listing it was April 18 2016



So basically if the buyer has to pay mf for 2 1/2 years of $5000 without use.

It's kinda like taking out a loan for a car and have it sitting in the driveway for 2 1/2 years and not allowed to drive it. 
WOW! What a great deal!

Three of out of four of my Wyndham contracts had prepaid mf. The forth was striped of current years points and the seller sent me a check after closing. That's what I call great deals.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Apr 21, 2018)

Railman83 said:


> Also, not to harp on this, but it occurs to me that I personally might have bought this contract at about 4K had it been my first or second contact but value it less as my point stack has grown.
> 
> I suppose there is a point that, even if given a great contract for free you wouldn’t take it because you have reached diminishing returns.   Though here if you got for free you could presumably sell at a profit



I can see from your listing on today's bargain deals :
Wyndham Flagstaff 105 K

that this post is more than just verbiage . You are upgrading your points pile by giving away some .

and someone jumped on today's bargain deal in hours .
WIN -WIN for everyone .


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Apr 21, 2018)

Roger830 said:


> So basically if the buyer has to pay mf for 2 1/2 years of $5000 without use.
> 
> It's kinda like taking out a loan for a car and have it sitting in the driveway for 2 1/2 years and not allowed to drive it.
> WOW! What a great deal!
> .



But they paid 1/2 price for "the car" !!   AND Timeshares don't rust .

And if the buyer had already booked 2+ years of vacations using existing ownerships AND expected to have more vacation time in the future .

I believe the buyer(not me)  participated in the thread and posted in another thread that they were very happy with the purchase and terms .


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## Railman83 (Apr 21, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> I can see from your listing on today's bargain deals :
> Wyndham Flagstaff 105 K
> 
> that this post is more than just verbiage . You are upgrading your points pile by giving away some.


I am going to replace with small Wordmark contact as some western travel is in my future.

Flagstaff has active feedback but I just couldn’t bring myself to. Give a Wyn a freebie


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## Railman83 (Apr 21, 2018)

Railman83 said:


> I am going to replace with small Wordmark contact as some western travel is in my future.
> 
> Flagstaff has active feedback but I just couldn’t bring myself to. Give a Wyn a freebie


 That is deed back not feedback auto correct


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## Braindead (Apr 21, 2018)

Braindead said:


> Ron would fully inform the buyers the contracts were stripped while selling or giving the contracts away.





T-Dot-Traveller said:


> I believe the person who “bought “Ron’s bargain Canterbury is a TUG member and was very pleased with the TS contract acquisition . The monthly MF cost until the points reloaded was less than what a similar contract would likely have cost resale and the payments were monthly to Wyndham instead of a lump sum .


I agree and gave Ron credit for full disclosure. Both parties new the facts and both were happy with the transaction.
Also if you don’t think my summary is accurate on stripped contracts for new readers here since last May by all means jump in and point out my inaccuracies


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## Roger830 (Apr 21, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> But they paid 1/2 price for "the car" !!   AND Timeshares don't rust .



I just traded in my 8 year old car with no rust.

Usually people want to use now pay later.

That deal is ok for someone not being able to travel now but can in the future if he lives that long.


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## CO skier (Apr 21, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> PS - I believe the person who “bought “Ron’s bargain Canterbury is a TUG member and was very pleased with the TS contract acquisition . The monthly MF cost until the points reloaded was less than what a similar contract would likely have cost resale and the payments were monthly to Wyndham instead of a lump sum .





Braindead said:


> I agree and gave Ron credit for full disclosure. Both parties new the facts and both were happy with the transaction.


The problem with stripped Wyndham accounts was not buyer satisfaction or a lack of disclosure, it was that the stripped contracts were being passed off on TUG as some kind of Bargain Deal, instead of being listed in the MarketPlace ads where anything goes.


Bargain Deal Forum Rules:

-You may not ask the new owner to pay the maintenance fee for a usage year that you are going to keep.


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## jebloomquist (Apr 21, 2018)

2018 is the first year since 2011 that I have not purchased a Wyndham resale contract. The prices have just gotten too high.

5 years ago I could use the following formula to set my maximum bid price, 30 x yearly points - 6 x yearly maintenance fee. I currently have a 375k Bali Hai contract with a total M/F of $1495.50. That would allow me to bid up to $2,277 on a resale contract. Now, even though I havehI can't win bids with a formula 36 x annual points - 6 x M/F. This would result in a max bid of $4527. Today, bidders are using something closer to 46 x annual points - 6 x M/F.

As a small time renter, I can't break even at these higher resale prices. Add to that the inability to cancel/rebook and no upgrade frequency, Wyndham is winning and my previous renters are losing.

I have no plans to sell any of my contracts, but with today's resale prices, I begin to wonder.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Apr 21, 2018)

CO skier said:


> The problem with stripped Wyndham accounts was not buyer satisfaction or a lack of disclosure, it was that the stripped contracts were being passed off on TUG as some kind of Bargain Deal, instead of being listed in the MarketPlace ads where anything goes.
> 
> 
> Bargain Deal Forum Rules:
> ...



Hi Co skier ,
I know that that is a "Bargain Deal " Forum rule now . 
and 
I know there was a debate regarding the definition of "giving away " regarding the Canterbury .

I don't recall if this was a forum rule prior to that period ?


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## CO skier (Apr 21, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Hi Co skier ,
> I know that that is a "Bargain Deal " Forum rule now .
> and
> I know there was a debate regarding the definition of "giving away " regarding the Canterbury .
> ...


Why would the TUG rule for Bargain Deals have to be made, if it was not already a rule?

Why would Wyndham do away with the Credit Pool and replace it with the Points Deposit feature, where points may only be deposited to future years?


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## CO skier (Apr 21, 2018)

jebloomquist said:


> As a small time renter, I can't break even at these higher resale prices. Add to that the inability to cancel/rebook and no upgrade frequency, Wyndham is winning and my previous renters are losing.


Or it could be that the owners who are now finding these units available and reserving them at full points and taking their families on vacation are the winners.


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## wjappraise (Apr 22, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Or it could be that the owners who are now finding these units available and reserving them at full points and taking their families on vacation are the winners.



Or...more based in reality, the folks at Extra Holidays love being able to cherry pick the inventory.  It’s not going to owners.  Reality check time, brother.  Stop passing out the KoolAid.


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## CO skier (Apr 22, 2018)

wjappraise said:


> Or...more based in reality, the folks at Extra Holidays love being able to cherry pick the inventory.  It’s not going to owners.  Reality check time, brother.  Stop passing out the KoolAid.


As an example, I am thinking about those Bonnet Creek 3 and 4 bedroom Presidentials that were cancelled and rebooked for half the price of a 1 bedroom, then rented at tidy profits.

It is not so profitable anymore, and what was marginally profitable reservations before -- using cancel/rebook -- are no longer profitable at all, as an earlier post explains.

So go ahead and show me all those 3 and 4 bedroom Presidentials being offered by Extra Holidays that used to be so common on EBay using cancel/rebook/upgrade.  I can wait ... probably forever.

Can't find any?  Then who is staying in these units?  Maybe owners booking them at or near 13 months at full points for their family vacations?


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## CO skier (Apr 22, 2018)

wjappraise said:


> Or...more based in reality, the folks at Extra Holidays love being able to cherry pick the inventory.  It’s not going to owners.  Reality check time, brother.  Stop passing out the KoolAid.


What you keep missing is that Wyndham could have cherry picked every cancel/rebook attempt under the old rules.  If cherry picking the best reservations for Extra Holidays is Wyndham's game, the new rules put them at a disadvantage versus the old rules, because most owners who book the best reservations using full points for their family vacation under the new rules do not cancel the reservation and give Wyndham a chance at it (if your conspiracy is to be believed).


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## CO skier (Apr 22, 2018)

jebloomquist said:


> I currently have a 375k Bali Hai contract with a total M/F of $1495.50. That would allow me to bid up to $2,277 on a resale contract.


Last month the OP paid $1600 total for 375K Bali Hai, $600 less than your max.  It seems like the deals are still out there.


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## schoolmarm (Apr 22, 2018)

Bali Hai is a valuable deed to own. Besides low MFs, it comes with an Outrigger membership that allows you to book the Outrigger resorts. 

I am happy with my Bali Hai stripped contract I got from Ron.  The MFs that I paid without use of points were WAY lower than the price of any Bali Hai contract on the market at the time. And I kept getting Bali Hai sold out from under me.


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## Sandi Bo (Apr 22, 2018)

Reading between ALOT of lines, I think the one unhappy with stripped contracts was WYN themselves. 

The jist of what I got was that they took back stripped contracts and then didn't like that they didn't have anyone paying maintenance for a couple years.  I wouldn't think Wyndham would really care if a contract was stripped, as long as someone was paying the maintenance. They only cared when they found themselves holding the contracts.

I say shame on Wyndham, who should understand this timeshare stuff better than them?


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## ronparise (Apr 22, 2018)

Braindead said:


> It all depends on what we are going to call “stripping the contract”. You are using the 2020 points in 2020. I don’t call that “stripping the contract” and I never considered that to be selling a “stripped contract “when it was discussed prior to May 2017.
> 
> If you use 2020 points in January 2020. Then sell that contract it will not be transferred until June at the earliest.
> The new owner might go 6-7 months before using 2021 points for a 2021 reservation.
> ...




It doesn’t matter what you call it; the end result is a contract that has less points in it than one would expect


For those that followed my wyndham “career”. And regarding that famous Canterbury deal. 

That contract and others I offered here on tug was offered here because my regular buyer wasn’t buying at the time. As soon as my regular buyer was back in business I with drew my offers, but there weee a few deals in process that I let continue to closing

And for those interested.  My “business” developed into what it ultimately becam over time. 

1) I started out buying holding and renting to pay mf and enjoy a “free” vacation every once in a while. My very first purchase on eBay for a dollar made me a silver vip but  the reservations I made to rent were made at 10 months and I didn’t know about cancel and rebook for a discount

2) at one point I developed a relationship with a title company and a post card company. I put the two together so the title company was doing the post card companies title work. My reward was that I got all their Wyndham points transferred to me at no cost

3) I got big quick; too big to manage my account myself, I found a travel agency that knew Timeshares to do the work of finding and servicing customers. Basically I turned my account over to them and they paid most of my mf 

4) as I said above, my first purchase made me a silver vip. And I had heard of other owners that became vip with small direct purchases and the rest from the secondary market.  I set about to figure out how to do that myself and was referred to a particular salesman at Hawaii resort that could make it happen. The secret was that some of the original Pahio  weeks contracts were not coded as resale contracts and would count toward vip even if purchased on the secondary market when converted to points. I didn’t know which weeks would work so I bought a bunch of them. I bought two 126 eoy contracts from that salesman in two caaounts and converted three Pahio weeks into each account and ended up with 2 Platinum VIP accounts

5) I then figured out that certain Pahio points contracts would maintain their vip status when transferred so I bought everyone I could get my hands on and built 3 more platinum accounts (total five) 

6) the free contracts kept coming and I grew to 30 million points. 
That points manager paid me $6/1000 points 

7) so you ask, what’s the point.  The points manager was barely paying my mf.  He was doing well using my vip benefits to get discounts and upgrades but what’s in it for me.  This is wheee the credit pool comes in. For each million point contract(s)  I bought I turned over 3 million points to my manager and he paid me $6/1000 or $18000. My mf was $6000 so $12000 positive cash flow in the first year of ownership. In future years I broke even ie the points manage covered mf 

8) the problem of couse is that I had to keep buying to make money and the question was how big is too big.  So I want looking for some way to dump the striped contracts  the alternative was to cap things at about 50 million points and hope to make about 50 cents  per 1000 points (that was the difference between my mf and what the points manager was paying). That would be about $25000 per year , nice but not want I had gotten used to

9) I found a guy who knew a guy who arranged a sale. I sold 20 million points to some LLC for a half a penny a point. I would have sold it all but they only wanted 300000 point I contracts or bigger udi contracts


----------



## ronparise (Apr 22, 2018)

To continue

10) so now I was able to buy strip and sell the use of the points to a points manager and sell the contract

11) the buyer was not buying all the time. And they didn’t buy in the winter so there were times I got worried that they wouldn’t be back in the spring and I offered some contracts here on tug

12) my business became a buy, strip and sell thing,  but it all came to an end in August 2016. ...... a happy ending to be sure, but I would have preferred to keep it going


So now the credit pool is dead, and so is my secret path to VIP and there are a number of other new rules like the 10 night limit rule and the guest confirm at booking rule designed to end the practice of large scale commercial renting

I honestly don’t see any way to make money using Wyndham Timeshares anymore, at least not the kind of money we used to be able to make but that’s what they said when I started this thing. It was right after the last big set of rule changes when several megarenters were put out of business.  I didn’t know any better and just jumped in. I’m betting someone smarter than me or at least not biased by my experience,  to jump in and figure out how to make money at this


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## ronparise (Apr 22, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Or it could be that the owners who are now finding these units available and reserving them at full points and taking their families on vacation are the winners.



Given the points requirements and maintenance fee costs and the cost to buy. I don’t see that anyone wins. 250000 points will  cost a new buyer about $40000. Amortized over 20 years is $2000 a year. 250000 points for a week in Orlando at $7/1000 mf will be $1750. Add it up and a weeks vacation will cost nearly $6000 for the first 20 vacations 

So buy on the secondary market. Those prices are going up too as evidenced by this thread. But make no mistake the days of cheap secondary market contracts are numbered I am absolutely sure that Wyndham is out to control the secondary market


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## ronparise (Apr 22, 2018)

Sandi Bo said:


> Reading between ALOT of lines, I think the one unhappy with stripped contracts was WYN themselves.
> 
> The jist of what I got was that they took back stripped contracts and then didn't like that they didn't have anyone paying maintenance for a couple years.  I wouldn't think Wyndham would really care if a contract was stripped, as long as someone was paying the maintenance. They only cared when they found themselves holding the contracts.
> 
> I say shame on Wyndham, who should understand this timeshare stuff better than them?



Listen to Sandi folks, she knows what she is talking about


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## Braindead (Apr 22, 2018)

ronparise said:


> so now I was able to buy strip and sell the use of the points to a points manager and sell the contract
> 
> 11) the buyer was not buying all the time. And they didn’t buy in the winter so there were times I got worried that they wouldn’t be back in the spring and I offered some contracts here on tug
> 
> 12) my business became a buy, strip and sell thing,  but it all came to an end in August 2016. ...... a happy ending to be sure, but I would have preferred to keep it going


You summed up my summary. I’m not revealing any secrets here. Ron posted for all to see that when his account was froze he owned 10 million points yet had reservations that would use 90 million points.


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## Railman83 (Apr 22, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Last month the OP paid $1600 total for 375K Bali Hai, $600 less than your max.  It seems like the deals are still out there.





schoolmarm said:


> Bali Hai is a valuable deed to own. Besides low MFs, it comes with an Outrigger membership that allows you to book the Outrigger resorts.
> 
> I am happy with my Bali Hai stripped contract I got from Ron.  The MFs that I paid without use of points were WAY lower than the price of any Bali Hai contract on the market at the time. And I kept getting Bali Hai sold out from under me.



Does resale Bali Hai get you the outrigger?


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## Braindead (Apr 22, 2018)

Sandi Bo said:


> Reading between ALOT of lines, I think the one unhappy with stripped contracts was WYN themselves.
> 
> The jist of what I got was that they took back stripped contracts and then didn't like that they didn't have anyone paying maintenance for a couple years.  I wouldn't think Wyndham would really care if a contract was stripped, as long as someone was paying the maintenance. They only cared when they found themselves holding the contracts.
> 
> I say shame on Wyndham, who should understand this timeshare stuff better than them?


Couldn’t agree more. I didn’t blame Ron and others for doing what they did.
What UPSET me to no end
WYN not only allowed it. WYN AIDED AND ENCOURAGED the action by buying the stripped contracts as Ron points out selling 20 million points in a single year of stripped contracts himself.
Yes its shame on WYN not Ron and others! Ron was an entrepreneur!!


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## Braindead (Apr 22, 2018)

Railman83 said:


> Does resale Bali Hai get you the outrigger?


Yes unless it’s changed in the last few months.
But it’s a bad use of points. Takes a lot of points for hotel room. In Waikiki it specifically says you will get a city view room for 567,000 points for a week. Weeks 1-50 are the weeks available.


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## Braindead (Apr 22, 2018)

Railman83 said:


> Does resale Bali Hai get you the outrigger?


I need to clarify.
 It has to be a Bali Hai UDI contract to get Outrigger.
If you bought a converted week you will not get Outrigger


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## CCdad (Apr 22, 2018)

RPMI listed an $8,995 + closing costs Buy it Now for 65xk Bali Hai Villas set of points the same day this unction closed.

After the 436K points went for over $8k, they either pulled their auction or someone jumped on it at a relative bargain price.

Their auctions tend to have the buyer take over MFs at closing vs after the final Wyndham transfer is complete.


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## cayman01 (Apr 22, 2018)

Railman83 said:


> Does resale Bali Hai get you the outrigger?


Yes it does. I have it and bought resale.


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## Braindead (Apr 22, 2018)

Railman83 said:


> Does resale Bali Hai get you the outrigger?





cayman01 said:


> Yes it does. I have it and bought resale.


I have it also bought resale
It has to be a UDI contract
Converted week does not
If you go to the Owership details  page on the website
The UDI contract will show Outrigger
A converted week will show Select


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## ronparise (Apr 22, 2018)

Braindead said:


> Couldn’t agree more. I didn’t blame Ron and others for doing what they did.
> What UPSET me to no end
> WYN not only allowed it. WYN AIDED AND ENCOURAGED the action by buying the stripped contracts as Ron points out selling 20 million points in a single year of stripped contracts himself.
> Yes its shame on WYN not Ron and others! Ron was an entrepreneur!!




No shame on anyone 

My buyer reviewed the contracts I presented. The points status was clear on each one and the sale price reflected that status

Consider this;   If the buyer was wyndham, and I’m not saying it was. And if they had to hold the contract for three years before it “recharged” they would have invested another about $15/1000 points in addition to the purchase price which was less than $5/1000 points. So a total investment of $20/1000 points. They sell this stuff for up to $200 per 1000 points. So their cost of goods sold would have been 10%. This was a good deal for me, and if wyndham was the buyer a good deal for them

You might also consider that when Wyndham took back contracts through Ovation, if the owner had purchased the points from Wyndham; wyndham would give them 3 years of points as payment


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## Braindead (Apr 22, 2018)

ronparise said:


> No shame on anyone
> 
> My buyer reviewed the contracts I presented. The points status was clear on each one and the sale price reflected that status
> 
> ...





ronparise said:


> 8) the problem of couse is that I had to keep buying to make money and the question was how big is too big.  So I want looking for some way to dump the striped contracts  the alternative was to cap things at about 50 million points and hope to make about 50 cents  per 1000 points (that was the difference between my mf and what the points manager was paying). That would be about $25000 per year , nice but not want I had gotten used to
> 
> 9) I found a guy who knew a guy who arranged a sale. I sold 20 million points to some LLC for a half a penny a point. I would have sold it all but they only wanted 300000 point I contracts or bigger udi contracts


Actually I would’ve used a lot stronger language than “shame on WYN” but kept it clean and used Sandi Bo terminology.
I have always enjoyed your perspective and your openness!! Neither one of us takes our discussions personally!!

I’ll share my perspective from not being involved with the “stripped contracts”
We both agree you were going to hit a cap of ownership at some level. You say maybe 50 million. Or it would’ve gotten out of control and imploded on itself.
Your margin was so narrow. You say 50 cents per thousand. It could’ve turned to breakeven or a loss at anytime.

So what happens ?
 Wyndham comes along needing inventory to sell.
 You and few others have tens of millions points contracts that are stripped.
My money bets those stripped contracts weren’t held for 2 years before being resold.
Wyndham reloaded them contracts with full points and sold them within months.

End result looks from the outside
Wyndham patted you guys on the back and saying good job in getting us inventory to sell
Now go back out and do it again so we can buy more inventory from you when needed
I don’t think you could’ve just kept buying and stripping for years without Wyndham coming along aiding and abetting

As you say - you planned on dying at some point. I’m glad Wyndham came along for you and your still here in excellent health!!

But yes “SHAME ON WYNDHAM “

 GOOD FOR YOU and I truelly hope you enjoy yourself as a past Wyndham owner!! Glad you came out ok!!
Hope you have many years of enjoyment and prosperity infront of you !! Along with staying around here for further discussions!!!!


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## ronparise (Apr 22, 2018)

I think you are right about wyndham needing inventory to sell. And Another need I think they need is inventory to rent

And I think the intend to corner the secondary market

When Wyndham was building their goal was to keep the cost of goods sold under 15%. Given a $200/1000 points sale price that means they could go as high as $30 per 1000 on the secondary market.


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## CO skier (Apr 23, 2018)

Sandi Bo said:


> The jist of what I got was that they took back stripped contracts and then didn't like that they didn't have anyone paying maintenance for a couple years.  I wouldn't think Wyndham would really care if a contract was stripped, as long as someone was paying the maintenance. They only cared when they found themselves holding the contracts.


If that is all there is to the story, why didn't Wyndham just refuse to take back stripped accounts?

Instead, Wyndham radically altered the Club program to eliminate the credit pool and along with it the ability of owners to strip and sell the stripped accounts to anyone.  Why did Wyndham replace the Credit Pool with the Points Deposit feature that only allows pushing points into future years?

Clearly, there is more to this story than "they [Wyndham] only cared when they found themselves holding the [stripped] contracts".


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## spackler (Apr 23, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Instead, Wyndham radically altered the Club program to eliminate the credit pool...



The credit pool change was the worst part of all the program changes they made, IMHO.  It made vacation planning far more difficult.


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## Arimaas (Apr 23, 2018)

spackler said:


> The credit pool change was the worst part of all the program changes they made, IMHO.  It made vacation planning far more difficult.



As a newbie to Wyndham, can some explain the credit pool? Thanks.


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## Railman83 (Apr 23, 2018)

Arimaas said:


> As a newbie to Wyndham, can some explain the credit pool? Thanks.


You can push points into the future by one year or two.  

The credit pool allowed you to pull from the future.

The main difference is you can no longer  strip contacts of three years of points in a single year.  The change is an inconvenience to owners but devastating to some business plans.


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## Railman83 (Apr 23, 2018)

Arimaas said:


> As a newbie to Wyndham, can some explain the credit pool? Thanks.


Most point based systems allow banking (aka Worldmark automatic bank if not used) or borrowing of some sort, DVC allows both for example.

Banking is almost works like an every other year contract so you could take a big vacation every other year instead of a small vacation every year.   A selling point over a fixed week system.


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## Arimaas (Apr 23, 2018)

Got it. So while you used to be able to both save and borrow points, now you can only save, no longer borrow?


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## Avislo (Apr 23, 2018)

The credit pool permitted assembling a large number of points for use.  You could credit pool point for the current use year that could be used in the current use year plus the next two years.  That I will call year 1.  In year two you could credit pool the current year points into for use that year and the next two years.  In year three you could credit pool points for the current use year for use in that year plus the next 2 years (credit pool deposit and use dates needed to be monitored and the pecking order for use of  the points.  They used to give one day to re-stack the points if the system used points that you did not want used.  Some features of regular use points were not available when using credit pool points.

In year 3 you could possibly have use of year 1, 2, 3  year points or various use plans that suited the owners needs.

Borrowing points was a different set of rules.  Borrowing points is still permitted.


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## Braindead (Apr 23, 2018)

Arimaas said:


> As a newbie to Wyndham, can some explain the credit pool? Thanks.


If the old credit pool was in place today. You could have a contract close today with the 2018 points intact. Then credit pool all the 2019 and 2020. By the end of 2018 you could use the first 3 years of  points. Then January 1, 2019 credit pool the 2021 points and use them by April 23, 2019. You just used 4 years of points for 1 year of MFs.

Then Wyndham came along with their head up where the sun doesn’t shine. Knowingly took those contracts off of some big owners hands. Wyndham new full well what they were getting. Wyndham endorsed and encourage the stripping of contracts by taking those contracts numerous times.

Credit pool points where good for 3 years from the day you put them in the credit pooled

Put that contract in a Platinum account and those 4 years of points turned into the equivalent of 8-10 years of points for 1 year of MFs


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## Avislo (Apr 23, 2018)

To complete the circle, if a person or firm took Wyndham Club Plus/Access contract for a fee, say 1,000 dollars in this example, and someone took them up on the offer and had credit pooled the prior two years or so of points because they could not or did not travel for the relevant time frame, and the credit pooled points associated with the contract in question transferred to the new owner, then add the transferred credit pool points to the example of the stripping contracts that was outlined above.


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## paxsarah (Apr 23, 2018)

Braindead said:


> Credit pool points where good for 3 years from the day you put them in the credit pooled



This is the crux of how the old credit pool used to work, outside of the specifics of how the credit pool allowed for exploits like the stripping of contracts. A regular owner who wasn't going to be able to use all of their points in the upcoming year could credit pool them and use them anytime within three years of the date they pooled them. Now, we have to choose a single future year to use them in, and the moved points are only good in that one calendar year. For us non-megarenter typical owners, this is the main loss of flexibility.


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## jebloomquist (Apr 23, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Last month the OP paid $1600 total for 375K Bali Hai, $600 less than your max.  It seems like the deals are still out there.



My formulas include the transfer and closing costs which I think came to $800 dollars on that auction.


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## Railman83 (Apr 23, 2018)

jebloomquist said:


> My formulas include the transfer and closing costs which I think came to $800 dollars on that auction.


I didn’t buy off auction, I bought off a liquidator and TUG member.   It was $1000 plus$600


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## ronparise (Apr 23, 2018)

CO skier said:


> If that is all there is to the story, why didn't Wyndham just refuse to take back stripped accounts?
> 
> Instead, Wyndham radically altered the Club program to eliminate the credit pool and along with it the ability of owners to strip and sell the stripped accounts to anyone.  Why did Wyndham replace the Credit Pool with the Points Deposit feature that only allows pushing points into future years?
> 
> Clearly, there is more to this story than "they [Wyndham] only cared when they found themselves holding the [stripped] contracts".




Wyndham did stop taking stripped contracts. But they had other issues with the way we were using the credit pool. If you read the old directory discussion of the credit pool it spells out their intent, saying something like “if you can’t travel in a particular year, the credit pool will allow you to push your points into a future year”. There was nothing in writing that suggested you could pull points from future years into the present. Although there was another provision whereby you could borrow next years points and another provision whereby you could “rent” points. I think the ability to credit pool future points was a mistake, (a loophole if you will) that they corrected

Think about it. Most timeshare require you to pay for your vacation before you take it. Wyndham is the exception, with monthly payments you can take a vacation in January before you make even your first of 12 payments.  The credit pool allowed us to take three years of vacations on credit.  I think this was too much risk for the system to take. It also created artificial demand on availability.


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## ronparise (Apr 23, 2018)

Avislo said:


> The credit pool permitted assembling a large number of points for use.  You could credit pool point for the current use year that could be used in the current use year plus the next two years.  That I will call year 1.  In year two you could credit pool the current year points into for use that year and the next two years.  In year three you could credit pool points for the current use year for use in that year plus the next 2 years (credit pool deposit and use dates needed to be monitored and the pecking order for use of  the points.  They used to give one day to re-stack the points if the system used points that you did not want used.  Some features of regular use points were not available when using credit pool points.
> 
> In year 3 you could possibly have use of year 1, 2, 3  year points or various use plans that suited the owners needs.
> 
> Borrowing points was a different set of rules.  Borrowing points is still permitted.




That’s not clear to me

Here’s what I did

If I got a new contract today, I could , for example, put the 2018, 2019 and 2020 points into the pool and make reservations with them.  In Jan 2019 I would be able to pool the 2021 points and use them

So in the first year I get the use of 3 years. And in succeeding years I get the use of just one year


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## Avislo (Apr 23, 2018)

Mine was just one of various methods to use credit pool points.  I was not talking about how to use the Credit Pool to strip a contract.  The example I used was if a owner wanted to assemble a bunch of points in one year.  Maybe to use on a high ticket reservation etc.


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## Braindead (Apr 23, 2018)

Avislo said:


> The credit pool permitted assembling a large number of points for use.  You could credit pool point for the current use year that could be used in the current use year plus the next two years.  That I will call year 1.  In year two you could credit pool the current year points into for use that year and the next two years.  In year three you could credit pool points for the current use year for use in that year plus the next 2 years (credit pool deposit and use dates needed to be monitored and the pecking order for use of  the points.  They used to give one day to re-stack the points if the system used points that you did not want used.  Some features of regular use points were not available when using credit pool points.
> 
> In year 3 you could possibly have use of year 1, 2, 3  year points or various use plans that suited the owners needs.
> 
> Borrowing points was a different set of rules.  Borrowing points is still permitted.





ronparise said:


> That’s not clear to me
> 
> Here’s what I did
> 
> ...


Avislo [Robert] can’t get the maximum use right either.
 You could have 5 years of points to use in year 3 of your ownership. 
2 years of previous years points and 2 future years of points plus current year= 5 years of points could be used for 1 big vacation


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## Arimaas (Apr 23, 2018)

ronparise said:


> Think about it. Most timeshare require you to pay for your vacation before you take it. Wyndham is the exception, with monthly payments you can take a vacation in January before you make even your first of 12 payments. The credit pool allowed us to take three years of vacations on credit. I think this was too much risk for the system to take. It also created artificial demand on availability.



HGVC allows you to borrow future year points for free, while saving (pushing points to next year) points from expiring costs money. 

I assume from the discussion that Wyndham no longer allows "borrowing"?


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## Braindead (Apr 23, 2018)

Arimaas said:


> HGVC allows you to borrow future year points for free, while saving (pushing points to next year) points from expiring costs money.
> 
> I assume from the discussion that Wyndham no longer allows "borrowing"?


You can barrow from next year if your in the Express Reservation Period [90 days or less] 
It is free to barrow points


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## Dave Landry (Apr 23, 2018)

Arimaas said:


> As a newbie to Wyndham, can some explain the credit pool? Thanks.



Points put in the credit pool could be used during the following 3 years. Now you can only move points to 1 of the 2 next year's and they have to be used during the year you choose only


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## Cyrus24 (Apr 23, 2018)

paxsarah said:


> This is the crux of how the old credit pool used to work, outside of the specifics of how the credit pool allowed for exploits like the stripping of contracts. A regular owner who wasn't going to be able to use all of their points in the upcoming year could credit pool them and use them anytime within three years of the date they pooled them. Now, we have to choose a single future year to use them in, and the moved points are only good in that one calendar year. For us non-megarenter typical owners, this is the main loss of flexibility.


The vast majority of owners used the pool as it was designed and as described above.  And, the vast majority of owners took a huge hit in regard to planning vacations (over time) with the elimination of the pool.  Wyndham went after the strippers and mega-renters and forgot about those of us who actually plan and take the vacations we book.  I'll never forgive Wyndham for taking away this benefit.  The Deposit Feature is awful.  I will make it work, but, I suspect many owners will end up losing points as a result of the extra planning now required.  I do not blame strippers and mega-renters for destroying the pool.  I BLAME WYNDHAM for NOT thinking about the smaller point owners, the majority of owners I might add.


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## CO skier (Apr 23, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> I do not blame strippers and mega-renters for destroying the pool.


So you think there is no cause and effect between what the mega-strippers were doing and the elimination of the credit pool?


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## Braindead (Apr 23, 2018)

CO skier said:


> So you think there is no cause and effect between what the mega-strippers were doing and the elimination of the credit pool?


No I don’t think it had anything to do with the mega-strippers as you put it.
All Wyndham had to do was use the current time frames and rules of the point deposit feature with one change
The only change you could put points in the Points Deposit Feature and they would be good for 3 years instead of picking 1 of 2 years. 
Problem solved!! So simple!!
No more pulling future years points forward to use now other than the rules on borrowing in the Express Reservation Period.
Instead Wyndham and you blame the mega-strippers when Wyndham helped to keep the stripping profitable by repeatedly taking the stripped contracts back


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## Cyrus24 (Apr 23, 2018)

CO skier said:


> So you think there is no cause and effect between what the mega-strippers were doing and the elimination of the credit pool?


The Credit Pool was exploited, legally, by the Contract Strippers.  As much as I'd like to assign blame, they can't be blamed.  Wyndham chose to clamp down on pulling points from future years for current year usage by just shutting down the pool.  Wyndham could have simply redefined how far in advance a point could be pooled.


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## CO skier (Apr 23, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> Wyndham could have simply redefined how far in advance a point could be pooled.


That is exactly what Wyndham did with Points Deposit.  Owners may deposit points one year in advance or two years in advance.  Platinum VIPs have until the end of their use year to decide.  Regular owners have until the end of the first quarter of their use year to decide.

One of the key questions for timeshare happiness is, "6) Can you make firm plans 12 or more mos. in advance?"

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/what-to-buy-questions-for-newbies.208742/


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## CO skier (Apr 23, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> The Credit Pool was exploited, legally, by the Contract Strippers.


Insider trading was exploited, legally, until laws were passed to prohibit abuses.  Were the laws enacted arbitrarily or as a result of the actions of those engaged in shady insider trading?

Now there is legal insider trading and illegal insider trading.

Now there is illegal Credit Pooling and legal Points Deposits.

Don't blame the Regulators who are trying to maintain a fair system.


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## paxsarah (Apr 24, 2018)

CO skier said:


> That is exactly what Wyndham did with Points Deposit.  Owners may deposit points one year in advance or two years in advance.  Platinum VIPs have until the end of their use year to decide.  Regular owners have until the end of the first quarter of their use year to decide.



This omits the fact that in addition to disallowing the pulling of future points into the present, Wyndham also reduced the period of time an owner can used their pooled/deposited points from 3 years to 1 (or 15 months, if you count the first three months of the year before the deposit deadline). If Wyndham were simply going to stop the pulling of future points into today, they could have still given us a window of the first three months of the UY to do the deposit, but then allowed the points to be used any time from then until the end of the third year. They chose to reduce the benefit instead.


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## Braindead (Apr 24, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Now there is illegal Credit Pooling and legal Points Deposits.
> 
> Don't blame the Regulators who are trying to maintain a fair system.


I thought the credit pool was dead-gone.
Now there is illegal Credit Pooling - what is that and how do we put points in the illegal Credit Pool ?
You didn’t respond to my post #94
If Wyndham only wanted to stop the pulling of future points into the current year what’s wrong with what paxsarah and I pointed out.
Non VIP in 2018 can extend thier points to December 31,2020. But they have pick 2019 or 2020
If the non VIP could use a Point Deposit Feature that would be good for 3 years those points would only be good till March 31,2021 another 3 months without the restriction of having to pick a use year to put the points in.
I think owners could understand why the credit pool needed fixed.

Yes the credit pool was broken so change the name to Points Deposit Feature with the fix. The current Points Deposit Feature fixed the problem but also destroyed the flexibility for non stripper owners


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## Avislo (Apr 24, 2018)

The Credit Pool is not dead yet.  People that beat the cutoff date for credit pooling new deposits still can use them though up to 2020 depending on their situation and when they credit pooled the points.


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## Braindead (Apr 24, 2018)

Avislo said:


> The Credit Pool is not dead yet.  People that beat the cutoff date for credit pooling new deposits still can use them though up to 2020 depending on their situation and when they credit pooled the points.


Ok. I’ll give you that one. Clarify it’s dead as in you can’t put additional points into the Credit Pool


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## ronparise (Apr 24, 2018)

Braindead said:


> I thought the credit pool was dead-gone.
> Now there is illegal Credit Pooling - what is that and how do we put points in the illegal Credit Pool ?
> You didn’t respond to my post #94
> If Wyndham only wanted to stop the pulling of future points into the current year what’s wrong with what paxsarah and I pointed out.
> ...



Good suggestion and good luck with that


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## CO skier (Apr 24, 2018)

Post #94


Braindead said:


> No I don’t think it had anything to do with the mega-strippers as you put it.
> All Wyndham had to do was use the current time frames and rules of the point deposit feature with one change
> The only change you could put points in the Points Deposit Feature and they would be good for 3 years instead of picking 1 of 2 years.
> Problem solved!! So simple!!
> ...





Braindead said:


> You didn’t respond to my post #94


Despite what some conspiracy theorists may believe, I am not in charge.  I am just a lowly owner in Club Wyndham who finds the discussions and developments fascinating.

Ask the Regulators who do make the rules, why they made the rule changes that they made.


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## Cyrus24 (Apr 25, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Ask the Regulators who do make the rules, why they made the rule changes that they made.


I would expect them to lie as to why.  So, I'll pass on asking. 

It would be nice if they just do as others have suggested and let us have more than one year of future availability on current year deposited points.


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## ronparise (Apr 25, 2018)

You get your choice of two years. Which is pretty good. The only reason you don’t think so is that you were , like me, spoiled by the old credit pool

I first bought wyndham just a they ended the practice of owner to owner transfers. Owners used to be able to own a very small account but take multiple vacations by “renting” points from others. There were lots of owners that didn’t like it when that ended, but they got over it

You will get over this credit pool/points deposit change too


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## Cyrus24 (Apr 25, 2018)

ronparise said:


> You will get over this credit pool/points deposit change too


I'll adapt, but, I'll never 'get over' it.  They limited my vacation planning flexibility.


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## Braindead (Apr 25, 2018)

If they only allowed credit pooling of current years points for 3 years with the current time timeframe of the Points Deposit it would’ve been a good sales tool. If you move up to Platinum you have 9 more months to deposit your points and your points wil be available 9 months LONGER than non VIP .

But now all points expire on the same day no matter if your VIP or not


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