# Purchase IPADs for Board Members



## phil1ben (Dec 6, 2011)

I am an owner at HGVC South Beach. I just read the May 11, 2011 Board Minutes and saw that the Board voted to buy each Board Member an IPAD so that meeting minutes can be delivered electronically. It was paid for as an Operating Expense and ; therefore, by each owner. 

Are they kidding?

I suspect each Board Member has computer access. In the very unlikely event that they do not, then let them review the materials by hard copy. Or simply go to their public library. These Boards should simply be owners who VOLUNTEER to serve. They should not be paid with IPADS. The money should be used for "Operating Expenses" not Christmas gifts for Board Members.

Am I the only one troubled by this?

I intend to write a letter to the Board complaining about this action. If others agree, I hope they will join me.


----------



## Janann (Dec 6, 2011)

My concern about this depends on whether the members get to keep the IPad or not.  Is it truly a gift, and each new member of the board will get one further down the road, or will the departing board members turn them in for use by the next board member?


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Dec 6, 2011)

How many of those owners are Hilton plants?  That would be my question.  That's pretty sickening.  Board members should never get gifts of more than a few bucks.


----------



## siesta (Dec 6, 2011)

That is outrageous and, IMO, a gross deriliction of duty. They will surely use that Ipad more for everything else other than for matters related to the board. Moreover it is a waste of resources and clearly does not serve the owners' best interests. As previously mentioned by the OP, there are much cheaper alternatives that are just as efficient. Whether or not the Ipad is property of the board or the individual member is irrelevent.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 6, 2011)

Incredible and all too typical of a Developer controlled operation.  Do they get company cars so they can drive to meetings? Or maybe a jet? It is completely unjustified and the owners should call them on it at the next meeting - and vote them out next election if that is the way they operate. 

Not to say an Owner controlled board couldn't do the same but it is far less likely when they appreciate it is their as well as the thousands of other owners money they are wasting. And they face a real election for the post. Board members that don't have their own pcs/laptops/tablets to "read the electronic minutes"?  BS!!  Stop this abuse of power ASAP.


----------



## heathpack (Dec 6, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> Stop this abuse of power ASAP.



This is a theorectical question, I have nothing to do with this resort.

But if I ever found myself in a similar situation, what steps would I take to effectively stop an abuse by the board?  What is the recourse other than trying to vote the bums out next year?  I am asking a genuine question as to the steps involved, not offering a commentary on your suggestion.

H


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 6, 2011)

heathpack said:


> This is a theorectical question, I have nothing to do with this resort.
> 
> But if I ever found myself in a similar situation, what steps would I take to effectively stop an abuse by the board?  What is the recourse other than trying to vote the bums out next year?  I am asking a genuine question as to the steps involved, not offering a commentary on your suggestion.
> 
> H



Simply attending the next Board meeting (hopefully with a group - the larger the better) to "call them on the carpet" would be a great place to start.  Raising the question publicly helps but there needs to be follow up. Dislodging a Board or just a Board member can be tough but holding them accountable is relatively easy & must be done.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Dec 6, 2011)

The real issue with fighting a current board and ousting them is apathy of owners.  People simply do not care.  Also, how do you get a list of owners and organize any kind of effort to vote against the board?  Most resorts will not give a list of owners to anyone.  There is a cost of mailing, too.  

If you send in your proxies, you are giving the board your votes.  If you don't send in your proxies, the board has even more power because they can still have your vote by default.  That is my understanding of the board's power.  They have it all, and you cannot vote them out without a very concerted effort.  They cannot conduct business at a meeting without the proxies, so the board does make all decisions, no matter what.


----------



## phil1ben (Dec 6, 2011)

I just called the Manager of South Beach who was very nice on the telephone and answered all my questions.

THIS IS AN HGVC POLICY THAT SHE SAID APPLIES TO ALL HGVC RESORTS -- NOT JUST SOUTH BEACH. IT IS A POLICY THAT HGVC RECOMMENDED ALL RESORTS TO ADOPT. 

IT APPLIES TO ALL OF US IF YOUR BOARD VOTES TO BUY THE IPADS.

I was told South Beach had unanticipated revenue of about $11,000.00 from filming activity and they voted to use the money to buy IPADS. The money should have been used to paint, repair and refurbish. This decision would seem to reflect a determination by the Board that the Property is in near perfect condition.

Instead of posting here, we should all write letters. Check your meeting minutes to see if your Board bought themselves IPADS.


----------



## siesta (Dec 6, 2011)

Even IF the resort had absolutely no repairs or maintenance to be addressed then it should go to reserves.


----------



## Talent312 (Dec 6, 2011)

phil1ben said:


> "...we should all right letters."



I suggest that we write letters. 

At least they're not buying themselves Jaguars.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 6, 2011)

Talent312 said:


> I suggest that we write letters.
> 
> At least they're not buying themselves Jaguars.



Not yet but once they "justify" one unreasonable move...

Watch your pocketbooks HGVC owners.


----------



## Remy (Dec 6, 2011)

Unbelievable.

I do love my iPad, but for $499 each, you can mail a whole lot of paper. 

Surely achieving the high score on Angry Birds isn't an association-related use of an iPad. Sounds ripe for abuse, and audit.


----------



## UWSurfer (Dec 6, 2011)

Now the board can run the Jaguar app on the iPad and all is good.

I've noted in the budget every year at SCI there's a line item for a car lease.  I don't know if the manager gets a company car or if this is for the electric carts used on property, but it's always bugged me a bit. 

I may just ask now and see.


----------



## Numismatist (Dec 6, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Also, how do you get a list of owners and organize any kind of effort to vote against the board?  Most resorts will not give a list of owners to anyone.



There are ways:

For Frenchman's Cove you can mine this database of Property Tax records to find all the owners:

http://public.usvi.cavucorp.com/

It takes time, but can be done.  ...and, yes, there are costs.


----------



## Remy (Dec 6, 2011)

How about a post of the board member's names for some public shaming?


----------



## pianodinosaur (Dec 6, 2011)

The minutes may be distributed to every owner by email in PDF format.  It would hardly cost a dime.  The minutes could be reviewed on an IPAD, lap top, or desk top without difficulty.  Most owners have access to such devices.


----------



## ronparise (Dec 6, 2011)

I know the op reported that the purpose was so minutes could be delivered by email...Im guessing they have a better reason than that. A better justification would be so the meetings could be held without the need for each board member to travel to the resort or some other central location....Seems like a small price to pay to save the board or the board members several  plane tickets a year. I could get behind that.


----------



## siesta (Dec 6, 2011)

ronparise said:


> Seems like a small price to pay to save the board or the board members several  plane tickets a year. I could get behind that.


$40 webcams ...


----------



## luvsvacation22 (Dec 7, 2011)

Old fashioned phone conferences. That is how our board conducts it's meetings. Minutes and the Agenda are emailed, then each board member downloads and prints them at their own costs.


----------



## phil1ben (Dec 9, 2011)

Someone posted a Note on Facebook that iPads were also purchased for Board Members at Seaworld based upon the May, 2011 Board Minutes. I don't mean to belabor this but it simply is wrong.


----------



## Talent312 (Dec 10, 2011)

OVS II (Seaworld)
Board of Directors’ Meeting, May 5, 2011

The meeting was called to order at 9 a.m. at the Hilton Grand Vacations Company Millenia office Orlando conference room. Board members in attendance included Neil Goodhue, Preston Beck, Catherine McDonald, Kim Kreiger and Cindy Angelo. Attending from Hilton Grand Vacations Company were Peter Merrill, Mary Kish, Joe Velasco, Kenny Mayhew, Neil Hutchinson, Neil Peraza, Marc Neu, Victoria Perez and several members of the onsite staff.
....
Electronic Format for Meetings
Mr. Hutchinson discussed with the Board the idea of providing future Board meeting material and other correspondence in an electronic format. All future material would be sent to the Board members electronically by providing each Board member an iPad. After discussion, the Board agreed to have management move forward with implementing the electronic format including the purchase of the necessary equipment as an operating expense.
....
Kim Robert Kreiger, Secretary/Treasurer


----------



## Talent312 (Dec 10, 2011)

An e-mail which I expect will be quickly deleted:
To: input@hgvc.com

Are the iPads that HGVC bought for Association BOD’s the property of HGVC or the Associations?
Will Board members be allowed to retain the iPads after they leave the Board?
Was it decided that Association BOD’s could not receive meeting materials with their own devices?
Will Board members be expected to pay for personal use of their iPads?

Perhaps Mr. Kreiger would like to address this issue in the next issue of Grand Times.
Or perhaps I and my fellow owners should ask these questions at an “owners update"?”


----------



## Mimoshka (Dec 10, 2011)

Maybe we should all try to become board members.  I sure could use an Ipad...


----------



## Numismatist (Dec 10, 2011)

That's how I can get voted as a Board member, report that I have my OWN iPad!


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 10, 2011)

How do we know that this stuff isn't happening at other places?  How can we as owners really know for sure?  What incentive is there to control costs and salaries?  

This type of purchase could have been easily buried in the operating costs.  However, this time it was made visible, and it's a good example of why maintenance fees at most resorts continue to rise higher than the inflation rate over the last 10 years.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 10, 2011)

ace2000 said:


> How do we know that this stuff isn't happening at other places?  How can we as owners really know for sure?  What incentive is there to control costs and salaries?
> 
> This type of purchase could have been easily buried in the operating costs.  However, this time it was made visible, and it's a good example of why maintenance fees at most resorts continue to rise higher than the inflation rate over the last 10 years.



While any resort/Association can have abuses it seems to occur with unsettling frequency in Associations that are controlled by developers.  It is a case where power corrupts and there are virtually no checks and balances in place.  Few pay close attention to exactly what all those growing numbers on the annual budget actually represent.  If they did then there should be far more questions like this one and a much bigger uproar over the often massive bad debt lines in far too many cases. 

Unless the amount your resort(s) charge are so meaningless to you that you don't care where it's going I urge every owner to take the 30 minutes or so a year it requires to really look at the annual budget. Email or call your resort about questionable areas - you'll likely find them especially if about the only information you get each year is that budget & billing. 

Pay close attention to these critical areas: 

Collections/Bad Debt
Cost of Management (this one may really shock you!)
Reserve funding & remaining life of assets
 It really isn't tough to do and it may set off some alarm bells that YOU need to get involved in how YOUR money is being spent.  We're usually talking about millions of dollars annually. It is well worth the effort to make sure you're getting what you're paying plenty for.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 10, 2011)

Numismatist said:


> That's how I can get voted as a Board member, report that I have my OWN iPad!



NOT at any resort that I sit on a Board for!  What a total ripoff of the owners. They should be embarrassed that it was even proposed forget actually being implemented.  What Board member doesn't have a pc of their own to "view electronic information"?  This is total BS.  

And I realize you were joking but this isn't a joke to the owners that have been saddled with a luxury expense they certainly shouldn't have been charged for.


----------



## Remy (Dec 10, 2011)

Talent312 said:


> An e-mail which I expect will be quickly deleted:
> To: input@hgvc.com
> 
> Are the iPads that HGVC bought for Association BOD’s the property of HGVC or the Associations?
> ...



Well put. There are so many ridiculous parallels here that this should have been obviously and soundly defeated as a proposal. 

"Hey, guys we need to have conference calls. Okay, let's get all the board member's iPhones."


----------



## phil1ben (Dec 10, 2011)

I wrote a letter expressing my outrage to my Board at South Beach. It is important to keep in mind that this whole idea was originated with HGVC (Blackstone). It appears that the provision in the Minutes is identical from Property to Property.  I will follow up my first letter with a second letter demanding that all Board Members immediately personally reimburse the Operating Funds in an amount equal to the cost of each iPad (and any wireless plan purchased).


----------



## Remy (Dec 10, 2011)

phil1ben said:


> I wrote a letter expressing my outrage to my Board at South Beach. It is important to keep in mind that this whole idea was originated with HGVC (Blackstone). It appears that the provision in the Minutes is identical from Property to Property.  I will follow up my first letter with a second letter demanding that all Board Members immediately personally reimburse the Operating Funds in an amount equal to the cost of each iPad (and any wireless plan purchased).



They bought the ones with 3G? For the love of jeebus that's obscene. Are they taking a home-office deduction for their "work" on the board too?


----------



## rjp123 (Dec 10, 2011)

*This is crazy!*



phil1ben said:


> I wrote a letter expressing my outrage to my Board at South Beach. It is important to keep in mind that this whole idea was originated with HGVC (Blackstone). It appears that the provision in the Minutes is identical from Property to Property.  I will follow up my first letter with a second letter demanding that all Board Members immediately personally reimburse the Operating Funds in an amount equal to the cost of each iPad (and any wireless plan purchased).



Post your letter and the address you sent it to.  I will do the same at South Beach.


----------



## UWSurfer (Dec 10, 2011)

After thinking about this for awhile I'm not sure this is as big a deal as we're making it out to be.

For purposes of discussion let's assume for a moment that an iPad costs $800 equipped with whatever features it has, & that there are five board members at HGVC, making it an outlay of $4000.  (I suspect they are less than that, particularly if HGVC is making a group buy, but we'll say $800).

Lets also assume that the resort has 100 units (most have many more) and that each unit is available 50 times a year, making 5000 ownerships at any given resort.   That means using this easy math, that it costs each owner 80 cents for the board to have iPads, or less than the cost of postage for two mailings.

Now know that most HGVC's have far more than 100 units so that 80 cents likely drops below less than 25 cents in many instances and everyone benefits by having  the board on the same platform with the same abilities.   It would be very possible to have the board meet via video conference with these without leaving their own home, work or wherever they happen to be just about any time of the year.

I've not served on a timeshare board, but I've been on plenty of civic group boards where we've discussed meeting on-line & the problem every single time we try to set these up are technical issues as so & so does't have a current machine that would support an audio & video session, someone else has windows but can't read mac documents or vice versa.   The possibilities these iPads provide for getting the board on the same page/platform in a seamless manner offers quite a bit of value.

Yes there are other ways of doing it & yes a pdf document can be read by most platforms regardless, & yes teleconferences can be done as well for little or no costs, although in most business settings they do cost some money.   For the amounts we're talking about I'm thinking this is not such bad move after all.

As to the iPads belonging to the association, yes that should be made clear but given that most seats on the board run two years, and assuming that someone leaves after that period, the technology will likely have changed enough that it wouldn't want it back anyways.

I'm presently using a MacBook Pro laptop, an upgrade from the Macbook I carried for the past 2-1/2 years and the integration & abilities it offers in audio and video surpasses anything I can do with our standard windows machines in the office.  My kid carries an iPad for school, is extremely productive and has many of the same features as my laptop for much less money.

No folks, I think HGVC might very well have the right idea getting everyone on the same platform for a reasonable cost to owners that will save everyone time and money moving forward.   And no, I don't expect many to agree with me.


----------



## Remy (Dec 10, 2011)

UWSurfer said:


> that will save everyone time and money moving forward



What kind of urgency is there for a timeshare board? I have yet to see minutes posted for an emergency meeting. And how does a fleeting technology product that costs a minimum of $500 per board member reduce cost? Postal rates aren't that high.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 10, 2011)

UWSurfer said:


> After thinking about this for awhile I'm not sure this is as big a deal as we're making it out to be.
> 
> No folks, I think HGVC might very well have the right idea getting everyone on the same platform for a reasonable cost to owners that will save everyone time and money moving forward.   And no, I don't expect many to agree with me.



Of course we appreciate your thoughts and opinion.  I have to disagree as strongly as I can. Being a Board member is not a license to get perks or make any money.  It is volunteering your time - in the case of HOA's for no monetary gain - to serve your fellow owners.  It is far beyond stretching the idea to include purchase of tangible items on the HOA dime and assigning them - or worse giving them - to Board members.  I would think any auditor would flag this as a blatant abuse.  

Your theory seems a rather tortured justification to me.  If this is the prevailing way of operating of "upscale" resort systems no wonder the fees are so outrageous! Remember, Hilton is the group that OK'd $5000+ for at least one Board member to go to a meeting in NYC when the resort was in the Islands.  What possible reason could there be for that? And that is where this type of free spending can go if unchallenged by the owners. 

Every dollar collected should be going to the resort operation & maintenance. These type of expenses are way above what can be justified IMO. I'll bet more owners agree with that plan than the iPad for all one.


----------



## UWSurfer (Dec 10, 2011)

How about the saving of travel expenses, lodging, food & the like?   

How about the ability to meet anywhere, anytime without further expense or inconvenience?  

How about reduced staff costs in preparing for a meeting place, the conference rooms, any food & coffee service that might be brought in, printing, power point projectors, phone bridges if some members aren't present?  All these do have real costs associated with them too, and don't think for a minute they are doing it on the cheap either.

Having dealt with this elsewhere, spending $500 per volunteer board member isn't really that much, even if it adds an additional 20 cents or a $1 to my MF costs.

It's not like the board voted for a free round of golf or items that are non-related.  This is a tool which can significantly reduce the expenses above while expanding what they can do with them.


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 10, 2011)

UWSurfer said:


> How about the saving of travel expenses, lodging, food & the like?
> 
> How about the ability to meet anywhere, anytime without further expense or inconvenience?


 
How about just making sure that all board members have a computer before they run?  Who doesn't have a computer in today's world?  

The video conferencing stuff works on all computers that have access to the Internet.

So, unless you can come up with a compelling reason to run a video conference on an Ipad (you can't), then all of your arguments are not valid.


----------



## phil1ben (Dec 10, 2011)

UWSurfer said:


> How about the saving of travel expenses, lodging, food & the like?
> 
> How about the ability to meet anywhere, anytime without further expense or inconvenience?
> 
> ...



I started all of this and the point is that I very strongly suspect all Board members already have a computer where they can receive a pdf file. There was no reason to spend at least $3-4,000.00 per HGVC property to buy both Board members and staff a new iPad. The Resolution for South Beach included new iPads for certain staff at the hotel. For example at South Beach the money could have been used to buy umbrellas and beach chairs so owners don't have to rent them at $50.00 per day. I am sure there are countless other places where the money could have been better spent. This was a needless and improper waste of operating funds.


----------



## UWSurfer (Dec 10, 2011)

Has anyone here actually done this?   That is to say, take an existing group of strangers sitting on a board and get them to do a video conference on their computers?  Two way video? 

If the boards were comprised by people under the age of 25 I'd say sure, they likely have the ability to do this independent of the resort and I wouldn't support the idea.  Most of the board members I've seen in the t/s world are significantly older, and a significant number of them own & use computers that aren't up to the task.

As I noted in my not such a bad idea post, I've had the experience with several other boards at the community level (PTA, Scouts, advocacy groups) and there are differing levels of expertise, technical savvy and computing power.  Those systems which do work on wide platforms cost $$ too.   

An iPad with G3 capability eliminates all this and puts in their hands something that just simply works right out of the box, and I think most here are missing that.   Its an investment in running the resort, not a perk.  The resort is a business, not a hobby.   $500 (or $800) for five people is not a major financial investment and I think we loose sight of that because it's shiny new technology  in the hands of a select few that some view as status symbols.

Heck, owning a timeshare is a status symbol.   I'm as cost conscious as anyone on all sorts of fronts, but I really don't think this is money mis-spent.  I also should say I have no interest in this at all other than as an owner of two HGVC weeks.


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 10, 2011)

phil1ben said:


> I am an owner at HGVC South Beach. I just read the May 11, 2011 Board Minutes and saw that the Board voted to buy each Board Member an IPAD so that meeting minutes can be delivered electronically.


 
If you read the OP's original post, you'll see that the justification for purchasing the Ipads is to _read_ _meeting minutes_.  

Not sure why we're even going down this videoconferencing path.  However, I'll say it again... any decent computer with Internet access can do videoconferencing.  check out www.gotomeeting.com


----------



## UWSurfer (Dec 10, 2011)

ace2000 said:


> If you read the OP's original post, you'll see that the justification for purchasing the Ipads is to _read_ _meeting minutes_.
> 
> Not sure why we're even going down this videoconferencing path.  However, I'll say it again... any decent computer with Internet access can do videoconferencing.  check out www.gotomeeting.com



True, I am expanding what the minutes said to the potential of a virtual meeting on-line (i.e.: video conferencing).

Now, if you go to the BUY GOTO MEETING link, you'll note: "Buy GoToMeeting and enjoy unlimited meetings for $49 per month."  It has a free trial, but it's not a free product.   Thats nearly $600 per person, about the same or more than purchasing a full featured iPad. 

Like I said, I've been down this road before.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 10, 2011)

Boards that take the easy way out and "meet" by teleconference or video conference from work/home/wherever aren't doing the job.  You need to be on site to see for yourself what things look like, hw things are operating, what needs attention, etc.  Trying to "meet" by electronics is OK for a quick one or two subject emergency or id someone can't make a particular meeting but wants to participate but to regularly use it as the primary way to operate would be derelict in my view. 

Far too easy for that already expensive management to pull the wool over a Board eyes if they fail to see them for themselves.  Even then it can be tough to find out what is really happening. I've been down THAT road as well. It wasn't pretty in the long run and rightfully led to a battle for control.  It never would have happened if the Board had sat at the other end of a video conference a few times a year.  Bad idea.


----------



## UWSurfer (Dec 10, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> Boards that take the easy way out and "meet" by teleconference or video conference from work/home/wherever aren't doing the job.  You need to be on site to see for yourself what things look like, hw things are operating, what needs attention, etc.  Trying to "meet" by electronics is OK for a quick one or two subject emergency or id someone can't make a particular meeting but wants to participate but to regularly use it as the primary way to operate would be derelict in my view.
> 
> Far too easy for that already expensive management to pull the wool over a Board eyes if they fail to see them for themselves.  Even then it can be tough to find out what is really happening. I've been down THAT road as well. It wasn't pretty in the long run and rightfully led to a battle for control.  It never would have happened if the Board had sat at the other end of a video conference a few times a year.  Bad idea.



Good point John.


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 10, 2011)

UWSurfer said:


> True, I am expanding what the minutes said to the potential of a virtual meeting on-line (i.e.: video conferencing).
> 
> Now, if you go to the BUY GOTO MEETING link, you'll note: "Buy GoToMeeting and enjoy unlimited meetings for $49 per month."  It has a free trial, but it's not a free product.   Thats nearly $600 per person, about the same or more than purchasing a full featured iPad.
> 
> Like I said, I've been down this road before.


 
I apologize to the OP because we're on a tangent here.  GoToMeeting.com is the Internet service and it's the software that allows you to _perform_ videoconferencing.  I thought it would address your concerns about the hardware necessary and demonstrate how common videoconferencing is.  It is not the camera and it is not the computer, and both of those are going to be necessary regardless of what method of video you want to use.

Want to share with us why you so strongly believe an iPad is necessary to do video?  What would be the advantages of an iPad over a PC?


----------



## UWSurfer (Dec 10, 2011)

ace2000 said:


> I apologize to the OP because we're on a tangent here.  GoToMeeting.com is the Internet service and it's the software that allows you to _perform_ videoconferencing.  I thought it would address your concerns about the hardware necessary and demonstrate how common videoconferencing is.  It is not the camera and it is not the computer, and both of those are going to be necessary regardless of what method of video you want to use.
> 
> Want to share with us why you so strongly believe an iPad is necessary to do video?  What would be the advantages of an iPad over a PC?



Not really.   I think I've already stated the reasons in my previous replies based on experiences with other boards.  

In taking a position opposite of the thread I am offering up reasons why I could see this being justifiable, not wasteful.   Personally I hate it when I hear folks objecting to expenditures based on perceived waste and privilege & not looking at the potential benefits something like this might have in running the resort.  I think I made some reasonable arguments, if not played devils advocate.  

John however makes an excellent point about the need for board members to be on-site regularly & I agree with that.


----------



## JM48 (Dec 10, 2011)

Is it legal to have any meetings by electronic means? 
 These meetings are suppose to be open to all of the owners how are we going to attend a meeting held by way of a computer?

 JM


----------



## phil1ben (Dec 11, 2011)

Allow me to quote from the offending minutes, "All future material would be sent to the Board members electronically by providing each Board member an iPad".

There is no intention or desire to curtail onsite meetings. The sole purpose of the iPad purchase was to view pdf files. The Surfer is trying to rationalize the purchase by inventing a use for the iPad which is neither expressed nor desired. Obviously, there is a benefit of Board members attending meetings in person at the site and viewing the conditions of the facility together and personally.

I'll say it again the wasted money arises because the purchase was solely to review pdf documents which every Board member can view on their own computers or by going to the library (or simply sending the documents hard copy).


----------



## Andythefox (Dec 11, 2011)

Not that I could even justify this, but if the sole legitimate reason is to view .PDF files why can't they use $200 netbooks or Kindles?

This stinks to high hell!


----------



## ace2000 (Dec 11, 2011)

How often does this type of thing occur at other resorts?  Can someone provide a list of names that took part in this?


----------



## Hiram (Dec 11, 2011)

UWSurfer said:


> After thinking about this for awhile I'm not sure this is as big a deal as we're making it out to be.
> 
> For purposes of discussion let's assume for a moment that an iPad costs $800 equipped with whatever features it has, & that there are five board members at HGVC, making it an outlay of $4000.  (I suspect they are less than that, particularly if HGVC is making a group buy, but we'll say $800).
> 
> ...


----------



## poorguy (Dec 11, 2011)

My two cents, 

I would have to agree, especially when each of us that owns just received a 2012 Member Guide in the mail.  This are beautiful, expensive looking books?  Why can't this be emailed to each owner (at a savings that far exceeds the Ipad purchases)?  

I've only been an owner for 6 months, and I have already received 2 member guides!  Before purchasing, I found TUG, and I found someone had posted a link to the 2011 member guide.  I printed most of it, and learned enough to make me want to purchase.  If we are really discussing cost savings, let's start there.  How much does printing and mailing a book to each member actually cost?[/QUOTE]

When you log into your account online, go to My Account>Manage Communications.  You can elect to receive some or all of: the member guide, Grand Times, HOA Communications and notices electronically.


----------



## Talent312 (Dec 11, 2011)

poorguy said:


> When you log into your account online, go to My Account>Manage Communications.  You can elect to receive some or all of: the member guide, Grand Times, HOA Communications and notices electronically.



I will do that... when the HOA buys me an iPad, or gives me credit against my MF's.


----------



## rjp123 (Dec 11, 2011)

phil1ben said:


> For example at South Beach the money could have been used to buy umbrellas and beach chairs so owners don't have to rent them at $50.00 per day. I am sure there are countless other places where the money could have been better spent. This was a needless and improper waste of operating funds.



Or how about fixing the internet problem at South Beach.  That is probably a $3k-$4k fix.

No need for iPads.


----------



## criminal109 (Dec 11, 2011)

UWSurfer said:


> True, I am expanding what the minutes said to the potential of a virtual meeting on-line (i.e.: video conferencing).
> 
> Now, if you go to the BUY GOTO MEETING link, you'll note: "Buy GoToMeeting and enjoy unlimited meetings for $49 per month."  It has a free trial, but it's not a free product.   Thats nearly $600 per person, about the same or more than purchasing a full featured iPad.
> 
> Like I said, I've been down this road before.



A clarification...  a single account of $49/month will support a meeting of up to 15 people.  That's about $600 total per year, not per person.

Unless the iPad can offset travel/meeting expenses, or there's some other critical activity this addresses (not sure what that would be), I can only imagine that this is compensation for time on the board.  Maybe that's a good incentive to have to get people to consider spending their time on the board, though perhaps that should be in a charter, not something voted on based on HGVC 'recommendations'. 

That said, it's pretty unseemly to vote yourself an iPad to read minutes.  I'd be embarrassed to do so without a clear functional reason for it.  Boards should be fiscally prudent.  It's hard to imagine that this board is thinking fiscally prudent if it's making decisions like this.


----------



## gnorth16 (Dec 11, 2011)

Talent312 said:


> I will do that... when the HOA buys me an iPad, or gives me credit against my MF's.



That is actually a good idea!

If HGVC gave owners the option to receive a digital copy via email or use the hgvclub to access the guide AND give a $10 MF credit, that would be fantastic.

Or reduce the fees by $10 for everyone and for those who want a printed copy, charge them $10.


----------



## pianodinosaur (Dec 13, 2011)

I have an IPAD.  I also own the computers in my office and a laptop that I keep at home. 

I do not expect other HGVC members to purchase my personal electronic devices.  I do not expect to purchase personal electronic devices for board members. 

The member guide is readily available at the HGVC website and is easily downloaded in PDF format.  The Grand Times mailings are also available at the HGVC website and may be easily downloaded in PDF format.  I think it would be much more cost effective to stop mailing the hard copies and simply provide the information online.  A simple email to the owners would be enought to advise us that a new member guide or Grand Times is available.


----------



## cornwall (Dec 13, 2011)

I would have a problem with this. I own in Hawaii and  have
the security of owning in a small timeshare group in a well run condominium complex where the board members must be owners of a timeshare and are answerable to all and reachable in case of complaints or suggestions.


----------



## phil1ben (Dec 15, 2011)

For those that care to cut, paste and send here is a copy of the letter I sent to the HGVC South Beach Board (you probably need to delete the film revenue paragraph for other facilities):

To:	All Current Board Members of the South Beach Vacation Suites Condominium Association, Inc.:

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen:

The minutes of the May 11, 2011 Board of Directors’ Meeting were recently published on the HGVC website.  I was surprised to read the following in the minutes:

"Electronic Format for Meetings - Mr. Hutchinson discussed with the Board the idea of providing future board meeting material and other correspondence in an electronic format.  All future material would be sent to the Board members electronically by providing each Board member an iPad.  Mrs. Kidd made the motion to have management move forward with implementing the electronic format including the purchase of the necessary equipment as an operating expense for each Board member, general manager and assistant manager; seconded, after discussion, Motion carried (emphasis added)."

	Suffice it to say, I am appalled that the Board would purchase iPads for their own use (and for the general manager and assistant manager) with funds paid by each Unit Owner for operating expenses.  The purported purpose of the expenditure was to review Board material provided in electronic format.  I suspect that all of the Board members already possess the capability to review documents in electronic format.  In the unlikely case that they do not, the materials can be provided by hard copy.  Alternatively, a Board member that does not have a computer can visit his/her local public library and review the documents there.  

The Board should have been polled to determine whether each member has a means to review electronic documentation (i.e. do they have a computer?).  In my opinion, this was a needless expenditure of funds which each Unit Owner fully expected would be used for maintenance and refurbishing of the facility.  The fact that the iPads may be returned after a Member’s term does not change my opinion.  The iPads will likely be obsolete by that time.

	After reviewing the Minutes, I contacted the facility and spoke with the Manager who was very helpful.  She informed me that the Board had an unanticipated revenue in the amount of approximately $11,000.00 attributable to filming activity at the property.  She further stated that a portion of this sum was utilized to purchase the iPads.  This sum should have been utilized for true operating expenses (i.e. repairs and refurbishing) and NOT for the purchase of iPads.  If the Board believed that no such repairs or refurbishments were necessary, the funds should have been deposited as reserves or utilized to offset any maintenance fees for the next fiscal year. 

	The Board should consist of volunteers who perform their services gratuitously.  In voting for this measure, I believe all of you have breached a confidence which the Unit Owners have placed in you.  I further understand that HGVC recommended the adoption of such a purchase.  The Unit Owners rely on all of you to review such suggestions and act properly.  In my opinion, you have all acted improperly.


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 15, 2011)

EXCELLENT letter that will, of course, be completely ignored by the Board.   I have yet to see a valid reason for such a purchase.  And the rules/laws of timeshares in most states are that any surplus to budget be returned to the owners or used as additional reserve funding.  I've never seen the use for a perishable, non-resort purchase as an acceptable use of any "surplus" or unanticipated funds.   What a total disregard for the owners.


----------



## Talent312 (Dec 15, 2011)

Strangely enuff, I have not received a reply to my e-mail.
I expect to hear from Kim Krieger any day now.


----------



## ETHall (Dec 23, 2011)

*Board members receiving IPADs*



phil1ben said:


> I am an owner at HGVC South Beach. I just read the May 11, 2011 Board Minutes and saw that the Board voted to buy each Board Member an IPAD so that meeting minutes can be delivered electronically. It was paid for as an Operating Expense and ; therefore, by each owner.
> 
> Are they kidding?
> 
> ...



I totally agree with you.  We have not bought IPADs for ourselves because of the price.  Surely all of these Board members have computer access or could use the library.  There is no excuse for buying them IPADs.  These funds are to be used for resort expenses!  Money could have been put into reserves for emergencies if not needed now.


----------



## DaveC (Dec 24, 2011)

I may have missed this in the thread. But, if there was a need for such a device, why not an Amazon Kindle or something else that is cheaper? The kindle would be 2/5 of the price and do everything they need. Apple products are higher priced and I consider them luxury items. 

Ironically, my company was forced to buy me a macbook to diagnose customer problems which were specific to Windows emulation on the mac. Important customers needed this to work. Yay for me!

I seriously doubt that they really need to buy the Apple product. It's like saying that they have trouble parking at south beach so they need a stretch limo to pick them up.


----------



## Talent312 (Dec 24, 2011)

DaveC said:


> .... It's like saying that they have trouble parking at south beach so they need a stretch limo to pick them up.



Don't give 'em any ideas... or perhaps they already do.


----------



## Remy (Dec 24, 2011)

Here's another way of looking at the iPad issue. What question is the iPad answering?

How do we meet without visiting the property? How do we get documents to members for review quickly? How do we have a conference call where we all see each others faces? How do we assure everyone has the ability to view a document without prejudice toward their computer purchases or capabilities?

They are all legitimate questions that can be answered without purchase of an iPad. I love mine, but there's no way as a board member I'd expect to be given one for the sole purpose of conducting board business. They will clearly be used otherwise.

Are they insured? Are the board members responsible for returning them unharmed at the end of their tenure? Are they taxable gifts? Are they compensation for serving on the board?

I'd almost prefer they become the property of the board member due to the liability of the board for what might potentially land on those devices.

I'm all for facilitating communication, but I've never served on a nonprofit board that purchased communication devices for board members. PDF and a good old-fashioned computer seemed to work just fine when we didn't have in-person meetings.


----------



## cgingrich (Dec 28, 2011)

*Members need an ipad to view the Memebership Guide.*

The board feels that it was necessary to purchase an electronic devise for board purpases and thought it would save money. 

To keep costs down I encouraging meembers to veiw the online Member ship guide.  May I suggest that all Owners be issued electronic devices (ipads) so we can all veiw the member guides electronically?

This is just another example of higher ups  (Management, BOD's, CEO's) always getting away with expensing and justifying unnecessary expenditures.

I'm sure the BOD's already have incurred home expenses with having computers/laptops/ cell phones etc and an IPAD is just another one to "pad" the expenses.

I would be curious to see which properties Maintenance Fees will increase this year?


----------



## phil1ben (Dec 29, 2011)

*Board's Buying IPAD Issue - Suggestion*

I do not run this Board and I do not know how to run a BBS. But to show the power of this BBS (which is mere numbers), and given the clear wrongful nature of the HGVC BODs actions in buying IPADS for their own use with Operating Funds, may I suggest that the Administrators' of the Board somehow (if possible) set up an electronic petition that each of us can sign and submit to HGVC and each of the BODs. The "petition" should state that we are all HGVC owners and believe that the BODs actions were wrongful and that we demand that each Board Member personally reimburse their respective Operating Fund for the cost of the iPADs.

Surely this is possible. How do we get this done?


----------



## GoHerd1028 (Dec 29, 2011)

*I am joining this thread late....but is it not a confilct of interest for the board to vote to buy themselves a luxury item such as an ipad?  I agree with everyone who has previously stated that more than likely each board member has internet access already even if it is at the local library.  Now, if the ipads are truly for use in matters concerning HGVC...is it possible to police the activity on the ipads to make sure that they are not being used for matters other than offical board business.  Of course not!  I am sure these jokers are laughing at us because they received this item on our dime. We can now read their facebook posts that they can make from "our" ipads!  We own at Sea World, but I am sure that this is going to happen there also if it has not already...if someone starts a petition I want to sign!  This is abuse of power and they know that our abilities to do anything about it are limited.*


----------



## timeos2 (Dec 29, 2011)

*How does a $599 iPad become a $825 iPad?*



cgingrich said:


> The board feels that it was necessary to purchase an electronic devise for board purpases and thought it would save money.
> 
> To keep costs down I encouraging meembers to veiw the online Member ship guide.  May I suggest that all Owners be issued electronic devices (ipads) so we can all veiw the member guides electronically?



You have a great idea there. Why not give every owner an iPad "to view the documents"? 

It might surprise you to discover just what you as an owner would pay for those $599 pads. Of course there is the list price of $599 you'd certainly be asked to pay, plus the 10-20% profit margin for the only vendor allowed to supply them - the "approved" vendor (approved by Hilton/Marriott/whoever - guess who probably gets a cut of that?) and then the Management overhead of 15% which is applied to all purchases for the "trouble" of them forcing you to deal with their vendors and at their price. 

So an iPad you could have got for $599 or less would likely cost you $826.62 each.  A drastic example off why "name brands" fe are so high. These same type of "requirements" are applied to everything they do. 

They demand that the Association only use their vendors at their price and then tack on an overhead.  Far too much of every dollar spent goes to things that do NOTHING for the resort & owners. That is the real cost of having a "name brand" run your resort.  It is not required to get the quality it is just free money for the "name" involved. Some demand more tan others but they all do it to a very large extent. 

Better most every dollar go toward operation & maintenance of the resort as they do at a well run owner controlled operation.  Even then it's hard to hold costs down. It's much harder when a profit is automatically built in to a corporate benefit alone.


----------



## rgong (Dec 30, 2011)

"Our website is experiencing extremely high transaction volume the last week of the year. Please try again later today or tonight."

Um, instead of buying board members iPads, how about spending some $$ to upgrade/maintain your servers, HGVC?


----------



## phil1ben (Dec 31, 2011)

Rgong:

They did not buy the Board Members iPADS - You did.


----------



## Talent312 (Dec 31, 2011)

phil1ben said:


> "They" did not buy the Board Members iPADS - You did.



I gather that HGVC uses the transaction fees to cover the costs of its
service center. While annoying, IMHO, they are not terribly excessive
at this point.

However, if HGVC buys extra servers for just the last 72 hours, it could
increase fees for the rest of the year. Perhaps those using the services
in the last 72 hours should offer to cover the additional expense.


----------



## rgong (Jan 1, 2012)

phil1ben said:


> Rgong:
> 
> They did not buy the Board Members iPADS - You did.



I see your point, but if someone uses my credit card w/o my permission, I don't consider that *I* made the purchase. Yeah it's our money, but someone else is making the decision as to how to (carelessly) spend it, as you've pointed out.

talent, I'm sure hgvc was shocked (not) that the traffic to hgvclub.com the last week of the year (not just 3 days) has overwhelmed their servers. I'm guessing they could lease capacity for a short period w/o having to invest in permanent infrastructure.

but what do I know, I'm just a lowly club member...


----------



## Eludersd (Jan 3, 2012)

*IPAD's, chump change*

I had the pleasure of just being in South Beach for the New Year for 3 days. Upon check in, I was informed by Eva that there was no hot water. It took them 17 hours to fix, oops, I mean replace the hot water system in both bldgs. Wait till that special assement comes in. $$$$


----------



## dja1980 (Jan 6, 2012)

phil1ben said:


> I do not run this Board and I do not know how to run a BBS. But to show the power of this BBS (which is mere numbers), and given the clear wrongful nature of the HGVC BODs actions in buying IPADS for their own use with Operating Funds, may I suggest that the Administrators' of the Board somehow (if possible) set up an electronic petition that each of us can sign and submit to HGVC and each of the BODs. The "petition" should state that we are all HGVC owners and believe that the BODs actions were wrongful and that we demand that each Board Member personally reimburse their respective Operating Fund for the cost of the iPADs.
> 
> Surely this is possible. How do we get this done?



If someone wants to set this up, I will gladly sign it...
http://www.change.org/


----------

