# Buying Marriott Advice



## jantistic (Jan 27, 2018)

Hi Everyone,

I'm seeking advice on the best way to buy into Marriott.  Through a Marriott salesman my parents put me in contact with (they are current Destination club owners), I have received the offer below.  This was his suggestion for getting ~7,500 DC points to be able to spend a week in a ski destination at peak times (I have looked at the point charts and realize it may not cover the week between Christmas through New Years.)  

I have a few questions:

Is this a good deal?  (BTW, my presumption is probably not based on a cursory review of resale listings in the marketplace on this site.)
If not, what is the best way to buy into Marriott?  After reading over the past few days, it looks like the recommended way would be to buy resale weeks.
If buying resale weeks, can I convert to points?  If so, is it known what the conversation ratio is?
If buying resales weeks, what consideration related to ROFR should I consider?  Are there other fees (junk or otherwise) that would be added to the transaction?
Other suggestions for buying are welcome
Thank you in advance for your help and advice.

Offer:

Purchase 4,000 DC points at 20% off retail, $44,480 plus closing costs.
Purchase resale from Newport Coast for $14,300 plus closing costs - platinum week worth 3,475 points.
Other relevant background:

From the newbie thread, answers below in case they are helpful in providing advice.  Ultimately, we are seeking at least a week to travel to ski destinations (Park City, South Lake Tahoe, Colorado) at peak times.  We have been doing this for the past few years to Tahoe and have been paying hotel rates to stay.

1) Is there a vacation destination you wish to visit most of the time or on a regular basis? if so where?
- Yes, ski destinations (South Lake Tahoe, Park City Utah, Colorado)

2) Do you want to visit your home resort at least half the time, or do you want to trade more than half the time?
- visit home resort

3) What are your 5 top trade destinations?
Hawaii, Caribbean

4) How many people do you usually travel with?
- 4 total (2 adults, 2 teenage kids)

5) Can you travel any time, or are you locked into the school schedule?
- Travel at kids' break time (Feb ski week, after Christmas through New Years, Spring break, summer)

6) Can you make firm plans 12 or more mos. in advance?
- Yes

7) Can you vacation for a full week at a time?
- Yes

8) What level of accommodations do you prefer on a scale of 1 to 5 stars?
- 5 stars preferable (4 stars works as well)

9) How much can you afford to spend upfront, without financing?
- $50-$75K, but would prefer a lot less, looking to save on 

10) How much can you afford to spend every year for a maintenance fee that will come due right after Christmas, and increase each year?
- $5K-$10K

11) Are you a detail oriented planner?
- Yes

12) Do you understand that once you buy a timeshare, it may be very difficult to sell or give away, and you are responsible for all fees, until you do?
- Yes


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## rthib (Jan 27, 2018)

Unless you are buying where you want to go, trading into someplace everyone wants to go at the same time everyone is trying to go makes for unhappy ownership.
Most people who complain about timeshares bought somewhere else and then can never get into where they want.
For a popular location, you are competing with all the people who own weeks there and then all the people who have higher point status who can reserve months in advance of you. For $5-10K a year you could probably rent from one of those people for a week.
Time shares can be a great value if you have flexible travel meaning you can travel on short notice or off times.
I have tried to use my weeks for my daughter and her kids and it has been difficult.  For us (empty nesters) we have had great success with trades. But that was because I was able to either travel off time or book my spring break trip in January.
You are spending close to $60K with zero assurance you will be able to go when you want.

If you plan to spend every year at Newport, that part might be worth it.
The points are ridiculously priced as you can see from the comparison of weeks points to true points.

Not my money but I wouldn't do it.

I would do what I did, buy two weeks in places you want to go, then each year decide which on you like - reserve both at 13 month, then deposit the one you are not going to use. Should get you what you want and 1/4 the cost.


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## jme (Jan 27, 2018)

IMHO, buy two resale weeks (NOT thru Marriott):  *platinum Newport* and *platinum Park City* (either Mountainside or Summit Watch,
study differences and choose). Forget the destination point purchase.
Your expenditure will be far, far less, and there are still ways you can achieve any other changing objectives besides
using up all your points, and then some. Your maintenance fees will be less as well.

Trading into Park City in February would perhaps never happen, and even a points reservation would be iffy.
Owners either use those weeks for family skiing as you will, or they
RENT OUT the week for huge profits. They don't own there to trade (points OR weeks).

For what you'll save, you can buy at least two additional resale weeks......now THAT will open up some possibilities to "play with",
but more importantly, you'll definitely GET what you set out to get, i.e., Newport and Park City each year.
Later when the kids are older and you're not skiing, that PC week will provide a huge positive cash flow.
Look up the rental prices on www.redweek.com.

BTW, we took our two children to Park City skiing 7 years in a row back before
the points system, when trades were easier. Stayed at both resorts....awesome.

In addition, buying resale allows you the greatly improved possibility of "getting out"
without much loss if you ever want to....not so if you do it as described in your post.

Many people purchase the destination points impulsively in order to
"play the game", but it comes at a hefty cost (both initially and annually thereafter).

Enjoy, you're definitely embarking on a life of wonderful times with your family.
The Marriott system has never disappointed us.


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## VacationForever (Jan 27, 2018)

Resale weeks cannot be converted to Destination Club points.  You should buy platinum ski week at a location/resort which you want to book your ski week.  

If you want more flexible beyond the ski week and you want to book within the Marriott Vacation Club system to other destinations, you can buy resale points and the total will be about half of buying directly from Marriott.  In order to bring the resale points into the Marriott system, Marriott will charge you a bunch of fees (junk fees, education fees... ) which adds $2+ per point to your resale points price.  It would cost somewhere between $6 to $7 per point in total.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jan 28, 2018)

I’d avoid this. As a points owner with kids and therefore limited travel windows, it’s not easy to get into the prime locations during the “school vacation” weeks.  You will become frustrated rather quickly.


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## jantistic (Jan 28, 2018)

Thank you for the feedback everyone!  I’m a little surprised to hear that it’s so hard to get prime weeks with points.  For me, that’s one of the main draws of points (ability to book 12-13 months in advance but still have the flexibility for other options).  I’ve started my search for resales in prime ski weeks and at least preliminarily there is certainly a premium. I’m beginning to think renting those weeks is the way to go. 


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## Marathoner (Jan 28, 2018)

I don't think it is as hard to book prime ski weeks as people are making it out with points.  However, there is far greater value in buying weeks rather than points for your vacations at ski resorts.  This is especially true during the holiday fixed weeks 51/52/7 (Christmas, New Years, Presidents week) if you know you are going to ski during the holidays every year.  It is simply better to buy the holiday fixed week that you want rather than assume it will be available via points.  For any other non-holiday prime ski weeks, DP is a viable option except for the fact that it is far more costly than a weeks purchase.  The one downside of the weeks purchase is that if you want to rotate amongst the Marriott ski options available, you need to use Interval to do the exchange.  I don't think that it is particularly hard to use II for weeks exchanges but you are never guaranteed the exchange will come through so some people are uncomfortable with the uncertainty.  But if you use the request first option (rather than deposit first), you'll always have the ski week that you originally booked as a fall back so it is not much of a risk, in my view.

I don't like Heavenly the mountain (the resort is nice), so I personally would buy at Park City.  Mountainside has some advantages over Summit Watch for families, especially if the kids are young.  Downside with Marriott at Breckenridge is that their largest unit is only a 1 bedroom.  The downside with Marriott Streamside at Vail is that you must take the shuttle.  If you can afford the Ritz at Vail, that is the most luxurious (and priciest) option amongst the Marriott timeshare family.


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## Marathoner (Jan 28, 2018)

Also, why would you buy a week at Newport Coast in your original scenario? You never mention it as a place you want to stay at. I don't own there but all the owners complain how hard it is to book a summer week there due to the very large platinum booking window at Newport 

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## VacationForever (Jan 28, 2018)

Marathoner said:


> Also, why would you buy a week at Newport Coast in your original scenario? You never mention it as a place you want to stay at. I don't own there but all the owners complain how hard it is to book a summer week there due to the very large platinum booking window at Newport
> 
> Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


I think OP thought it could be converted to DC points.


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## Marathoner (Jan 28, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> I think OP thought it could be converted to DC points.


At least buy a ski week through Marriott to convert to points as that would give the OP another option. I guess the drawback would be that the OP would need to buy more points since you have to buy more points than the week can convert to. 

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## StevenTing (Jan 28, 2018)

As someone that has spent $155k with Marriott on both Developer weeks and points and resale weeks and points, here is what I would do if I could do it all over.

Purchase 7000 DP on the resale market for about $35,000 all in.
Purchase a Marriott Mountainside week in high season for $20,000 all in.

This way you have the same outlay, same approx points, and a week at a ski resort in high season.  There is still no guarantee on a specific week but you have a better chance at it now.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jan 28, 2018)

StevenTing said:


> As someone that has spent $155k with Marriott on both Developer weeks and points and resale weeks and points, here is what I would do if I could do it all over.
> 
> Purchase 7000 DP on the resale market for about $35,000 all in.
> Purchase a Marriott Mountainside week in high season for $20,000 all in.
> ...



Does combining DP points with a weeks unit enable 13 month reservations for the weeks unit?


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## StevenTing (Jan 28, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Does combining DP points with a weeks unit enable 13 month reservations for the weeks unit?



I don’t believe it does.  However he could try and book it with points.


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## Marathoner (Jan 28, 2018)

I have a different view. I think the better value is for the OP to buy a fixed week 52 and 7, both at Mountainside. This assumes he can afford about 45k and 40k respectively and both those weeks are holiday weeks at his kids school. Then he will always be guaranteed 2 holiday vacation weeks annually. For the times he wants to go elsewhere he can try the request first Interval trade or rent out his week on Redweek. 

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## catharsis (Jan 28, 2018)

jme said:


> IMHO, buy two resale weeks (NOT thru Marriott):  *platinum Newport* and *platinum Park City* (either Mountainside or Summit Watch,
> study differences and choose). Forget the destination point purchase.
> Your expenditure will be far, far less, and there are still ways you can achieve any other changing objectives besides
> using up all your points, and then some. Your maintenance fees will be less as well.
> ...



Firstly let me say that I completely agree with the advice above - purchase a week in mountainside - it will be trivial to trade it for Tahoe (and I own both, for reference), you can rent it out and stay somewhere nice in CO every couple of years, or you MIGHT even get a swap into the nice places in beaver creek (I don't think Vail is that well served by timeshares, and IMHO the Marriott there isn't great although the Ritz is superb).

I only posted to point out that I have traded using Interval into a 1 bed in PC for the third year running this year - and in fact my traded week for 2018 was already confirmed when I bought Mountainside during our stay there last year  (i.e. confirmed over a year out.... what uncertainty?!)

Also if the 'offer' ever comes back from MArriott (which some of us expect to see next Jine or so) to allow you to enroll your week through the purchase of 3K points, you could add on 3K destination points then and will then be WAY ahead of what you currently have on the table.


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## vacationtime1 (Jan 28, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Does combining DP points with a weeks unit enable 13 month reservations for the weeks unit?



7000 points would put you at Executive level which permits points reservations of any duration at 13 months, although it doesn't do anything to help the weeks reservation.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jan 28, 2018)

“Thank you for the feedback everyone! I’m a little surprised to hear that it’s so hard to get prime weeks with points. For me, that’s one of the main draws of points (ability to book 12-13 months in advance but still have the flexibility for other options). I’ve started my search for resales in prime ski weeks and at least preliminarily there is certainly a premium. I’m beginning to think renting those weeks is the way to go. ”

Despite what the salesman might say, Very difficult to get prime weeks at popular locations whether 12 or 13 months out, no matter how many points you have.


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## Hi I'm new here (Jan 29, 2018)

Your very wise to rent the weeks you want, rather than buy.  Don’t limit your rental search to timeshares- look into condo and house rentals.  There is a very brisk third party rental market out there.  We’ve rented luxury ski homes and very much enjoyed them.
Also remember your interest and kid schedules keep changing.  Don’t get stuck with buying a timeshare  that appeals to you now but in five years???
Keeping your cash invested is also important to avoid lost opportunity.


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## Marathoner (Jan 29, 2018)

Christmas and New Year weeks are very expensive to rent at nice ski-in/out resorts. I do think there is a good economic case to buying those weeks. I agree that for other weeks during the ski season, renting is a good alternative 

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## jme (Jan 29, 2018)

Marathoner said:


> Christmas and New Year weeks are very expensive to rent at nice ski-in/out resorts. I do think there is a good economic case to buying those weeks. I agree that for other weeks during the ski season, renting is a good alternative
> 
> Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk



This is why I encouraged buying as the best choice for ski weeks. And when it comes time to no longer go,
be on the receiving end of those rentals....it provides a great cash flow.  And if purchased at resale value,
you can recoup all or most of the initial cost if you wish to sell, independent of those rentals.

So, long term bottom line, if you buy resale, theoretically it's possible to ski for years and get out for only the annual maintenance fees
(more so than buying through Marriott or buying Destination Points,
in which cases you'll never recoup what you paid up front).


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## Jayco29D (Mar 4, 2018)

Can you use DC points to make reservations and rent out those reservations? Is this allowed in the MVC system?


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## Jayco29D (Mar 4, 2018)

If I want to buy a 7000 DC point package for $35,000 all in, which broker would be best to work with?


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## TXTortoise (Mar 4, 2018)

Not a points guy, but spent a night on TUG, and guessing that wouldn’t pass ROFR. Guessing closer to $45-50k. 

I’d bypass the broker and find the points on Vacation Point Exchange or the Marriott Buy-Sell Facebook page, or Redweek, Redweek and close through the outfit Steven Ting used or LT Timeshares, if they do points. 

Steve/Greg?


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## SueDonJ (Mar 5, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Can you use DC points to make reservations and rent out those reservations? Is this allowed in the MVC system?



The same rental rules that apply to owned Weeks apply to DC Points - you can privately rent any reservations made via your owner's account.  (Note the same II rules that apply to Weeks also apply to DC Points - it's not permitted to privately rent any reservations booked through II using Weeks or DC Points.)


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## Jayco29D (Mar 5, 2018)

I just read this in the MVC Destination Program Exchange Procedures document. This sounds like rentals are not allowed. 

"Residential Use and Prohibition on Commercial Use. Accommodations, Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, Special Benefits, and Use Periods may not be used for any commercial purpose. This prohibition on commercial use includes, but is not limited to, any illegal activity or a pattern of occupancy, rental, leasing, or use by a Program Member that Exchange Company, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude
 526828-14 (eff 12.05.15)
12
constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. In the event a Program Member is determined to be reserving or using the Accommodations, Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, Special Benefits or Use Periods for any commercial purpose Exchange Company may immediately cancel any current reservation(s) made by such Program Member and may impose such additional penalties or restrictions as determined by Exchange Company, in its sole discretion, from time to time. The restrictions of this paragraph do not apply to Exchange Company or its affiliates or designees."


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## TXTortoise (Mar 5, 2018)

I expect it revolves around two attorneys dancing on the head of a pin trying to define Commercial Use, and to a greater extent, whether Marriott ever decides to enforce it.


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## Fasttr (Mar 5, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> I just read this in the MVC Destination Program Exchange Procedures document. This sounds like rentals are not allowed.
> 
> "Residential Use and Prohibition on Commercial Use. Accommodations, Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, Special Benefits, and Use Periods may not be used for any commercial purpose. This prohibition on commercial use includes, but is not limited to, any illegal activity or a pattern of occupancy, rental, leasing, or use by a Program Member that Exchange Company, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude
> 526828-14 (eff 12.05.15)
> ...


I believe the general feeling is that as long as you are not using your ownership almost exclusively for "commercial use", you will likely be ok with the occasional renting of an otherwise unusable week booked with points.  That said, the wording does leave things open to interpretation.


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## taterhed (Mar 6, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> I just read this in the MVC Destination Program Exchange Procedures document. This sounds like rentals are not allowed.
> 
> "Residential Use and Prohibition on Commercial Use. Accommodations, Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, Special Benefits, and Use Periods may not be used for any commercial purpose. This prohibition on commercial use includes, but is not limited to, any illegal activity or a pattern of occupancy, rental, leasing, or use by a Program Member that Exchange Company, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude
> 526828-14 (eff 12.05.15)
> ...



I believe the word "exchange"  denotes exchanged benefits....not owned. But, I could be wrong.


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## taterhed (Mar 6, 2018)

Hi I'm new here said:


> Your very wise to rent the weeks you want, rather than buy.  Don’t limit your rental search to timeshares- look into condo and house rentals.  There is a very brisk third party rental market out there.  We’ve rented luxury ski homes and very much enjoyed them.
> Also remember your interest and kid schedules keep changing.  Don’t get stuck with buying a timeshare  that appeals to you now but in five years???
> Keeping your cash invested is also important to avoid lost opportunity.



It's pretty clear you're strongly biased against timeshares.  You must have a bad history there....

I certainly agree with you--don't limit your search to timeshares--and, in my words, don't limit your options to ownership.  But, timeshares do make sense, financially and for un-intrinsic reasons, for a lot of people.  Think, research and make a solid decision before buying.  That's good advice.

But, "Keeping your cash invested is also important to avoid lost opportunity..."   sounds like Scrooge McDuck advice to me. Renting luxury homes at ski resorts during peak season will certain spend all that 'invested cash' in a hurry!   If you really think it makes more sense to pay $5000 a week for a 2br rental of 4* quality rather than OWN that same week for less than half the cost.....then I think you should reconsider the logic of what you're preaching.

What makes real sense, is to save every dime, work non-stop, never vacation and invest very wisely.  You'll be very lonely, but you'll have a lot of money.  maybe. 

Lighten up Francis....renting can be a good option, but it's not the right option for everyone.  IMHO


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## JIMinNC (Mar 6, 2018)

taterhed said:


> It's pretty clear you're strongly biased against timeshares.  You must have a bad history there....
> 
> I certainly agree with you--don't limit your search to timeshares--and, in my words, don't limit your options to ownership.  But, timeshares do make sense, financially and for un-intrinsic reasons, for a lot of people.  Think, research and make a solid decision before buying.  That's good advice.
> 
> ...



If you look at that poster's history, you will see most of the posts are along the same lines. I believe he/she has said they are former MVC owners for whom timeshare didn't work well. My main beef with their posts is the tone is sort of a "one size fits all", it didn't work for me, so it's bad for you, too. Having said that, I do believe that people like that with a bad experience who, for whatever reason, choose to still come and post on TUG are equally valuable as those of us who find timeshares work very well for us. People with questions need to hear both sides. Timeshares are not for everyone, and it's important that both sides of the coin are seen and understood. If you can't - or don't want to - plan ahead by at least 9-13 months, then timeshares may not be for you.

Just to show why I disagree with the "one size fits all" approach, as timeshares forced us to become more adept at planning ahead, I have found that I really like planning all of our travels well in advance - even non-timeshare trips. Planning forces you into a broader, more strategic view. We've gone as far as to build a travel planning grid that looks out about nine years or so. We made a list of the big "bucket list" type of trips and put them on the grid in a logical order. What we found was, it forced us to think about what trips we want to do while we are relatively younger versus those that can wait until we're a little older. So the Tahiti cruise got moved up to around 2020 from it's original spot in 2023 or 2024. We then fill in the other trips as we go around these big items. Only about the next 12-18 months of the grid is reasonably set - the rest is somewhat tentative, notional, and subject to revision, but it helps to have that big picture view. Had we not been forced by timeshares into a little longer range planning horizon, I'm not sure we would have discovered the value of even more strategic vacation planning.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 6, 2018)

“What makes real sense, is to save every dime, work non-stop, never vacation and invest very wisely. You'll be very lonely, but you'll have a lot of money. maybe. “

Exactly! LOL. My spouse would be very rich without me!


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## Jayco29D (Mar 6, 2018)

taterhed said:


> I believe the word "exchange"  denotes exchanged benefits....not owned. But, I could be wrong.



I will call MVC if/when I ever needed to rent. It is not my intention but might be needed sometimes.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 6, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> If you look at that poster's history, you will see most of the posts are along the same lines. I believe he/she has said they are former MVC owners for whom timeshare didn't work well. My main beef with their posts is the tone is sort of a "one size fits all", it didn't work for me, so it's bad for you, too. Having said that, I do believe that people like that with a bad experience who, for whatever reason, choose to still come and post on TUG are equally valuable as those of us who find timeshares work very well for us. People with questions need to hear both sides. Timeshares are not for everyone, and it's important that both sides of the coin are seen and understood. If you can't - or don't want to - plan ahead by at least 9-13 months, then timeshares may not be for you.
> 
> Just to show why I disagree with the "one size fits all" approach, as timeshares forced us to become more adept at planning ahead, I have found that I really like planning all of our travels well in advance - even non-timeshare trips. Planning forces you into a broader, more strategic view. We've gone as far as to build a travel planning grid that looks out about nine years or so. We made a list of the big "bucket list" type of trips and put them on the grid in a logical order. What we found was, it forced us to think about what trips we want to do while we are relatively younger versus those that can wait until we're a little older. So the Tahiti cruise got moved up to around 2020 from it's original spot in 2023 or 2024. We then fill in the other trips as we go around these big items. Only about the next 12-18 months of the grid is reasonably set - the rest is somewhat tentative, notional, and subject to revision, but it helps to have that big picture view. Had we not been forced by timeshares into a little longer range planning horizon, I'm not sure we would have discovered the value of even more strategic vacation planning.



I guess I am a non-traditional TS owner. I have been traveling internationally since I was a teenager and young adult even though I was never wealthy in my younger years. Then as an older adult, I easily dropped $15K+ on one vacation - we probably spent $30K+ per year on vacations. Just 2 nights (one weekend) in a regular hotel at the base of a ski resort in Tahoe is easily over $1000 in ski season - much more depending on where you stay. Then I discovered timeshares and realized how much money I can save on equivalent or better vacations with 1 and 2 bedroom accommodations with kitchen and the amenities of home. We rented a studio in Hawaii last year for $3400 for the week but the condition was not excellent and it was not huge but it did have an ocean view. I would much rather pay $2200 MF for a 2 bedroom ocean view in Ko Olina. The quality, space and views are much better. Plus we can lock it off and get a second week if we want. I was already a 18 month to 2 year out planner. I agree timeshares are not good for everyone and it certainly depends on your budget and where you like to stay and visit.


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## Fasttr (Mar 6, 2018)

taterhed said:


> I believe the word "exchange"  denotes exchanged benefits....not owned. But, I could be wrong.


In the context of the Exchange Docs....Exchange Benefits are related to ressie's filled via the DC Exchange, which we know to be the vast majority of all DC ressies.


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## taterhed (Mar 6, 2018)

Fasttr said:


> In the context of the Exchange Docs....Exchange Benefits are related to ressie's filled via the DC Exchange, which we know to be the vast majority of all DC ressies.


Thanks.  Did not know that.

So 'Marriott Rental Program' is technically the only 'legal' rental for DC ressies?


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## Fasttr (Mar 6, 2018)

taterhed said:


> Thanks.  Did not know that.
> 
> So 'Marriott Rental Program' is technically the only 'legal' rental for DC ressies?


Likely so under the strictest reading of the docs.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 6, 2018)

The governing docs for the overwhelming majority - if not all - of MVC Weeks also contain language relating to a "commercial entrerprise" restriction which gives them the right to implement it either system-wide or on a case-by-case individual basis.  The difference between MVC Weeks and DC Points appears to be that the Weeks docs explicitly state that owners are allowed to "rent" their Weeks, while the DC docs say vaguely that Trust Members and Exchange Members can use their DC Points to book reservations for "Guests."

In my experience and in that of many other TUGgers, there hasn't been any pushback by MVW to successful Member rentals of reservations booked using both types of DC Points.  Just like with Weeks, we simply call Owner Services to add Guest Names to the reservations.  Some of us say during those calls that we're doing a private rental, others don't, but MVW doesn't ask.

So yes, the simple answer is that MVW _can_ impose rental restrictions of _any_ reservations via the "commercial enterprise" prohibition in the docs, but IMO it's not something to be concerned about until/unless they do.  Considering that it's been allowed for decades, I would expect that if ever they change their practice to to limit it on a broad basis they'll do the same thing Disney Vacation Club did, which was to announce via a pre-implementation notice that going forward only a specific number of owner reservations can have Guest Names attached to them.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 6, 2018)

SueDonJ said:


> The governing docs for the overwhelming majority - if not all - of MVC Weeks also contain language relating to a "commercial entrerprise" restriction which gives them the right to implement it either system-wide or on a case-by-case individual basis.  The difference between MVC Weeks and DC Points appears to be that the Weeks docs explicitly state that owners are allowed to "rent" their Weeks, while the DC docs say vaguely that Trust Members and Exchange Members can use their DC Points to book reservations for "Guests."
> 
> In my experience and in that of many other TUGgers, there hasn't been any pushback by MVW to successful Member rentals of reservations booked using both types of DC Points.  Just like with Weeks, we simply call Owner Services to add Guest Names to the reservations.  Some of us say during those calls that we're doing a private rental, others don't, but MVW doesn't ask.
> 
> So yes, the simple answer is that MVW _can_ impose rental restrictions of _any_ reservations via the "commercial enterprise" prohibition in the docs, but IMO it's not something to be concerned about until/unless they do.  Considering that it's been allowed for decades, I would expect that if ever they change their practice to to limit it on a broad basis they'll do the same thing DVC did, which was to announce via a pre-implementation notice that going forward only a specific number of owner reservations can have Guest Names attached to them.



What would be great is if DC Points could establish a secondary rental market for DC Points, like Disney has. That makes it super easy to rent out DVC points you aren’t using. As an owner, I would prefer that over trying to rent a week myself.


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## Fasttr (Mar 6, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> What would be great is if DC Points could establish hassecondary rental market for DC Points, like Disney has. That makes it super easy to rent out DVC points you aren’t using. As an owner, I would prefer that over trying to rent a week myself.


www.vacationpointexchange.com 

Run by TUGgers GregT and StevenTing

www.ownertrades.com

Run by TUGger Clark


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## Hi I'm new here (Mar 6, 2018)

OK, we are former owners of a Marriott timeshare, Hilton Head platinum that we enjoyed for a few years.  Our schedules were busy, inflexible jobs, conflicts with kid schedules and the TS became a nuisance.  Deep down I thought buying it was a mistake, buyers remorse.  We were not in a position to trade and we got bored with the same old, same old.  We also wanted to do different types of vacations besides the pool/beach oriented TS trips.  We sold our unit a while back, just before the resale market nosedived.  Financially we broke even, considering the vacations we took.  A big sigh of relief, I could say out loud what I had to repress when we owned. 

I lurked on this web site for years, never posted til last year when Golden Vike laid out his DC purchase plans.  We were never DC owners.  I absolutely cringe reading the prices people are paying.  I absolutely cringe reading the various maintenance and user fees DC owners pay.  I absolutely cringe reading the hoops people jump through to use the ownership they thought they bought. I absolutely cringe reading the never ending policy and booking changes, reducing the value of what people thought they bought.  I absolutely cringe when a young family contemplates making a six figure timeshare purchase,  the sum total of purchase price and maintenance fees over ten years or so.   I cringe because they will get pennies on the dollar when they want to get out.
I cringe when I read young families are financing these purchases.  Just wait for the next recession to hit. 

Once I sold our unit I could say things out loud that I repressed when we were Marriott owners.  Timeshares, especially the destination club are poor values.  
Timeshares, condos, luxury homes are readily available to rent from owners at reasonable prices.  The third party rental market is so vibrant, why buy these timeshares?  
Package deals are readily available, bundling air, lodging, car rentals at the most reasonable prices.   Why buy these timeshares?  
Why buy these timeshares when yearly user fees, maintenance fees, approach, equal or exceed the cost to rent from a third party? 

Many good people spend lots of time creating spreadsheets validating their purchase using hotel and timeshare rack rental rates.  Just like the timeshare sales people.  I see little validity in this math exercise.  I see newbies like Golden Vike creating these spreadsheets and I cringe. 

If someone is dead set on buying a timeshare become a patient user of eBay. Marriott platinum weeks in great locations can sell for $500/$1000.  A friend of mine bought his timeshares this way. 

There are many great people posting here.  Many good people have figured out how to work the system but most people will not have the time to do that.  The learning curve is pretty steep.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 6, 2018)

Hi I'm new here said:


> OK, we are former owners of a Marriott timeshare, Hilton Head platinum that we enjoyed for a few years.  Our schedules were busy, inflexible jobs, conflicts with kid schedules and the TS became a nuisance.  Deep down I thought buying it was a mistake, buyers remorse.  We were not in a position to trade and we got bored with the same old, same old.  We also wanted to do different types of vacations besides the pool/beach oriented TS trips.  We sold our unit a while back, just before the resale market nosedived.  Financially we broke even, considering the vacations we took.  A big sigh of relief, I could say out loud what I had to repress when we owned.
> 
> I lurked on this web site for years, never posted til last year when Golden Vike laid out his DC purchase plans.  We were never DC owners.  I absolutely cringe reading the prices people are paying.  I absolutely cringe reading the various maintenance and user fees DC owners pay.  I absolutely cringe reading the hoops people jump through to use the ownership they thought they bought. I absolutely cringe reading the never ending policy and booking changes, reducing the value of what people thought they bought.  I absolutely cringe when a young family contemplates making a six figure timeshare purchase,  the sum total of purchase price and maintenance fees over ten years or so.   I cringe because they will get pennies on the dollar when they want to get out.
> I cringe when I read young families are financing these purchases.  Just wait for the next recession to hit.
> ...



Thank you for sharing your experience. This is very helpful to me since I am new at timeshares. I am in a different camp and I cringe at going on AirBnB, VRBO and eBay. So far, I have been incredibly lucky at getting all the reservations, dates and unit sizes I want with my timeshares. Renting from an owner makes me extremely nervous. For example, a month ago I went on AirBnB and rented a few ski days from an owner. Then I changed my mind and she kept half my money, per the agreement. I did not complain because that was the agreement. Fortunately, it was a cheap reservation so I was okay with losing half my money. Last year, I rented a studio in Hawaii for $3400 for the week and the condition was okay but not as well maintained as I would like. We had floods in the bathroom every time we took a shower and lots of mildew from previous floods since the owners did not fix the showers. I am skeptical about renting directly from individual owners for many reasons, including the ones I just mentioned.

As I previously posted, my vacations used to cost 2-3x per year what I am paying in maintenance fees for all my timeshares combined and I used to just book hotel rooms LOL. Given what I have now in my vacation portfolio and what is coming, I can vacation all over the world for many weeks at low prices in 4 star and 5 star resorts with a lot of flexibility. There is only place I enjoy going that does not have timeshares (i.e. French Polynesia) but I have plenty of hotel points to get discounts when/if I want to return.

I am super excited that with my two weeks at Four Seasons Aviara, I will be able to use one week ourselves and split the other week into a one bedroom deposit into Elite Alliance (I will try to deposit a holiday week since that yields the most trading power plus a bonus but I already have 2 weeks reserved for the dates I want in case I can't get a holiday booking) and stay at luxury resorts and homes. There is a lot of availability in EA because I also see Getaways at good prices and reduced points. Then I can deposit the studio lockoff into Interval International and pay the $99 upgrade fee to get another week in a 1 bedroom.

We already vacation every month locally as well as 6-8 weeks a year outside of CA and we still work full time. When we retire in 5-10 years, we will truly be able to enjoy our timeshares.

Thanks to what I have learned here on TUG, I have gotten full refunds on three loser contracts from developers, even after the rescission period ended.

Since then, I have bought almost everything on the resale market except a few small contracts from Disney. (Note: I only bought DVC for the kids.) So when/if I decide to sell, I should not lose a ton of value. But if we do lose some value, that is okay because we will have enjoyed ourselves at great places all over the world. And stayed in bigger and better accommodations than I have rented in the past.

I agree with you that many Tuggers create endless spreadsheets down to the penny to justify their purchases. I can relate but I look at what I used to spend and do vs what I can do now. For me (and this only applies to me), this is valid comparison since I would never rent or buy on the websites you listed.

My heart goes out to families who get tricked into developer timeshare sales by unethical and lying salespeople and who take out high interest rate loans to finance their purchase. I agree that the TS industry needs a lot of improvement and it is not for folks who do not plan ahead or want to pay MFs or can't get enough time off to vacation.


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## taterhed (Mar 6, 2018)

Ok Hi.....

I agree with most of what you said and respect your opinions.  I'm not a fan of DC points and think financing a timeshare is a bad idea.

We agree to disagree on the 'why buy timeshares (at all)? and general cost--in some locations--but that's personal choice and location.
Owning a timeshare in Orlando?  Why not rent?

Well, that's because my Orlando timeshare gets me Hawaii every year--exactly what I want--for less than 1/2 what I could rent.

So, thanks for the reply and I'm glad your happy now!


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## JIMinNC (Mar 6, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> I am in a different camp and I cringe at going on AirBnB, VRBO and eBay...Renting from an owner makes me extremely nervous...I am skeptical about renting directly from individual owners for many reasons...



I am in your same camp. I also cringe at the idea of AirBnB and VRBO, etc. The potential for inconsistent quality and financial uncertainty that you related in your examples are not what I'm looking for in a vacation. I'm just more comfortable with the general guarantee of a certain level of quality and predictability that you get with major brands like Marriott, Hilton, Westin, etc. But obviously for other folks, AirBnB and VRBO work well. That's why one size does not fit all.



Hi I'm new here said:


> We also wanted to do different types of vacations besides the pool/beach oriented TS trips.



We do too. We never expect our timeshare weeks/points to meet ALL of our vacation needs. I would never recommend that someone spend their entire vacation budget on timeshares. But for that portion for which timeshare works well, there are ways to make it work very, very well.



Hi I'm new here said:


> Many good people spend lots of time creating spreadsheets validating their purchase using hotel and timeshare rack rental rates.  Just like the timeshare sales people.  I see little validity in this math exercise.  I see newbies like Golden Vike creating these spreadsheets and I cringe.



In addition to the generalization above that AirBnB/VRBO are better options for everyone, this is the other main area which I take the most issue with your perspectives. I agree 100% that for people like you who are obviously comfortable with AirBnB/VRBO, using the online rates on marriott.com. hilton.com, orbitz.com, expedia.com, etc is incorrect. But for people like Jay and me, who cringe at AirBnB/VRBO, what number should we use to compare the cost of a timeshare against? AirBnB/VRBO isn't a relevant metric for us because we wouldn't use it in the real world. What is a relevant metric for us is the channel we would use to book if we didn't have access to timeshare ownership. That's why I tend to compare against the online sites noted above, because when we don't use timeshares, that is how we usually book our travel. It's not some attempt to rationalize a purchase as you seem to imply. It is a real-world compare against a realistic booking option *for us*.

Also, I'll say we did a lot more spreadsheets when we were new to timeshare and trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. Now that we have experience, I find I more or less know what works and I don't need to analyze nearly as much.



Hi I'm new here said:


> If someone is dead set on buying a timeshare become a patient user of eBay. Marriott platinum weeks in great locations can sell for $500/$1000.  A friend of mine bought his timeshares this way.



If all you want is *any* Marriott timeshare, then you may be right. But very few platinum Marriott weeks sell for that low, even on eBay. If you want specific locations like Hawaii, the Caribbean, Hilton Head summer, etc., you'll pay a lot more, even on eBay.



Hi I'm new here said:


> Many good people have figured out how to work the system but most people will not have the time to do that.  The learning curve is pretty steep.



I agree with this 100%. If you are not willing to invest the time to educate yourself on how to use timeshare, stay away. But I can say without reservation, that there is no way we would have ever been able to take the trips we've taken with our timeshares for the cost we've paid, booking the way we would have to book, if we didn't own what we own. That's not timeshare sales spin. That's just the truth.

I will conclude by saying I do cringe along with you when I read of people financing their developer timeshare purchase because they can't afford it any other way (I do give a pass, however, to those who finance for loyalty points, or short term convenience, but pay it off immediately as soon as the desired benefit is received.) I cringe with you again when I read of people who plunk down $20,000, $30,000, or more after a 90-minute presentation with no research or comparative shopping. We can certainly agree on that.


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 7, 2018)

Hi I'm new here said:


> I absolutely cringe reading the various maintenance and user fees DC owners pay.  I absolutely cringe reading the hoops people jump through to use the ownership they thought they bought. I absolutely cringe reading the never ending policy and booking changes, reducing the value of what people thought they bought.



I’ll just comment on the parts I disagree with. You cringe at maintenance fees? You do know you pay them indirectly with hotels and any other type of stay since any given place has to be maintained. You do know hotel rates have gone up quite a bit also right? All that really matters is with the ongoing MFs, taxes, whatever one pays for a given year, is that cheaper than staying via other options, from a purely financial perspective only. My Australia trip was over $10,000 to pay for it last year via most any method you’d want to use, 4 weeks. Cost me 1/5th of that in MFs, etc. Would I have even gone for more than 10 grand? No way. Sure, there are individual places that are not run well, or, MFs rise far more than others, etc. We have a very good board at my home legacy resort. It is not a concern for us.

I also have not had any changes that caused me to not vacation as I wanted in the 20 years I owned. Perhaps others have a different experience, but, I don’t see it. The jumping through hoops, not sure I agree with that either. I have spent some time for sure planning a 4 week trip, making sure airfare lines up with stays, dates, laws, customs, etc., but then again, any such trip has a lot of planning.

I do appreciate that some have simpler uses, some want to see more. I am in the latter category.



Hi I'm new here said:


> Timeshares, especially the destination club are poor values.



My experience has been the opposite. Unless you are merely referring to purchasing at retail prices.



Hi I'm new here said:


> Why buy these timeshares when yearly user fees, maintenance fees, approach, equal or exceed the cost to rent from a third party?



Because it is not possible for you to pay less than what it cost me in exchanges, etc., for just my one 4 week trip. Can it be the way you say? Sure, wrong place to own, poor use of the timeshare, etc. I would probably agree that for the majority of owners, it could well be the way you described. But the answer to your question *for me* is it is worth it, easily.



Hi I'm new here said:


> I see newbies like Golden Vike creating these spreadsheets and I cringe.



Why would what he does on his own time cause you to cringe? Can he not do as he wishes without your input? Perhaps it gives him great joy, the process, who knows. But that’s up to him, isn’t it?

In summary, certain that I will be able to sell what I own for more than I paid for it when the time comes. And I am quite positive with the trips we have taken that we have made many times our investment in savings over other ways of vacationing for what we want to do. We almost never go to beaches. The rest of what you seem to say, namely paying developer prices for say points, is not a good idea for the most part. But I would never say for anyone.

Would I have gone to see this without timeshare? No! And while it may appear to be a wave shape, it’s rock of course. Many may think it’s a waste of time, just this and the Pinnacles in Western Australia made the whole trip for me. Not many Americans get to see either.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 7, 2018)

Fasttr said:


> www.vacationpointexchange.com
> 
> Run by TUGgers GregT and StevenTing
> 
> ...



Thank you for these links. 

It seems like the rental price for DC Trust points is the same or not much above the MF cost per point of $0.553. It seems, if allowed, it would be better to book a week with DP Trust Points and rent that instead of renting out points.

The nice thing about the DVC point rental market is that owners can quickly and easily rent their unused points for double the MF.


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## Hi I'm new here (Mar 7, 2018)

Why do I cringe?  
I cringe when newbies like Golden Vike create spreadsheets that plug in the rack rate data spewed by timeshare sales people.  The spreadsheets purport to identify a break even date. It is false data given the vibrant third party rental market that exists.  It is false data when a myriad of well rated companies package air, hotel or villa, car rental into a price that may be a few hundred dollars over published air rates. It is false data when a myriad of online discount companies compete for your lodging dollars. False data in, false conclusions out.

What I’m saying is mild compared to what I read on other travel boards, especially TA.  Timeshares are widely disparaged. 
I still hope golden vike was not a real person, we will never know. 
Best of luck to all.


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 7, 2018)

We agree here, timeshares are widely disparaged. Mostly from false information or mis-understanding, or, from folks who buy direct from resorts (probably the majority). Some of the bad press also comes from companies who want to resell your timeshare too. They will say how terrible they are, we’ll get you out of it, but really that’s not what they are trying to do. False information.

What some here are saying is we agree that it can be a very bad pure economic decision when buying direct. We are with you on that. But we are not with you when you state or imply that all timeshares for everyone are always bad, that is simply not the case as you have read here. And there are reasons for some other that economic where timeshares also make sense. And, some of us do come out ahead, way ahead.


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## taterhed (Mar 7, 2018)

Funny, it is true....

Many first time buyers (or prospective buyers...just after sales presentation) try to justify their purchase--or pending purchase--based on the wildly inaccurate data provided by the salesperson/weasel.

It's pretty easy to spot these..and kind of sad (normally).

On the other hand....I did create a spreadsheet for my Worldmark purchases....I used it to judge the value of a purchase based on the contract size, number of points available and total purchase price.

In the end, this tool was invaluable to quickly spot a value resale versus a so-so resale.  
A. Retentive?  You betcha.  But, the chase is very fun for me.

Finally, I'll point out that my Worldmark just scored me a 4* premium week in Hawaii during peak season for $571 dollars, including eplus.
Yeah, crazy prices those timeshares.


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## JIMinNC (Mar 7, 2018)

Hi I'm new here said:


> Why do I cringe?
> I cringe when newbies like Golden Vike create spreadsheets that plug in the rack rate data spewed by timeshare sales people.  The spreadsheets purport to identify a break even date. It is false data given the vibrant third party rental market that exists.  It is false data when a myriad of well rated companies package air, hotel or villa, car rental into a price that may be a few hundred dollars over published air rates. It is false data when a myriad of online discount companies compete for your lodging dollars. False data in, false conclusions out.
> 
> What I’m saying is mild compared to what I read on other travel boards, especially TA.  Timeshares are widely disparaged.
> ...



There you go again...using the “vibrant third party rental market” example for someone who doesn’t trust that market - which was the case with Golden Vike last year. As Jay and I both explained above, it is not “false data” to compare timeshares to the rates charged on online booking sites if you use those sites to book your accommodations when traveling. The travel packages you also use as examples are usually in hotels, and the few villas they offer tend to be limited and very pricey. I’ve never found those great deals you mention. 

Show me a company that can rent me a two bedroom ocean view villa on Maui in February/March for $2200 for 7 nights. That’s just one example - I could have also said 2BR OF villa in the summer in Hilton Head for $1300, or Aruba in the winter for $2000, etc etc. 

And who cares what they say on Trip Advisor? That just reflects the general lack of understanding the broader market has on how to use timeshares. Those folks on TA probably pay, on average, a lot more for their accommodations than we do here in TUG - or they are probably stuck in a hotel somewhere.


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 7, 2018)

Hotels are often used as a comparison point, but that presumes people are ok with a hotel room. If they were, why did they purchase a timeshare? I can’t stand hotels for the most part and would not generlly stay in one. We have specialized food needs, and, that is very difficult to accomodate in a hotel, and certainly not be eating out. Also like the additional space, and many of the other features they often come with.

I would also never rent from third party, unless I knew them or perhaps, and I mean barely perhaps, it wes someone long time on tugbbs. I would think some of those are scams on the renter side, just like we see on the rentee side. 

Right now, I am staying in Stormy Point Village in Branson. Cost me $259 for 7 nights for a 2 bedroom house. Please, tell me how I can do that outside of timeshare? The VRBO rate? $200/night for next week. 

There is definitely a ton of misinformation on why timeshares are bad. Some of it can be true, no doubt, but you will find few defenders here of anyone buying direct at inflated prices.


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## Dean (Mar 7, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> I just read this in the MVC Destination Program Exchange Procedures document. This sounds like rentals are not allowed.
> 
> "Residential Use and Prohibition on Commercial Use. Accommodations, Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, Special Benefits, and Use Periods may not be used for any commercial purpose. This prohibition on commercial use includes, but is not limited to, any illegal activity or a pattern of occupancy, rental, leasing, or use by a Program Member that Exchange Company, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude
> 526828-14 (eff 12.05.15)
> ...


It's just like DVC commercial doesn't mean profit but volume and consistently.  If you rent out many weeks most years you are at risk, if it's a few a year or more occasionally, you will not be in violation.  For DVC it doesn't even come into play until you get to 20 reservation per year or unless you create your own commercial website.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 7, 2018)

Dean said:


> It's just like DVC commercial doesn't mean profit but volume and consistently.  If you rent out many weeks most years you are at risk, if it's a few a year or more occasionally, you will not be in violation.  For DVC it doesn't even come into play until you get to 20 reservation per year or unless you create your own commercial website.



So if you have a reservation and you are at risk of losing it, then are you saying the Marriott DVC Points program and DVC would both be okay if we rented it out? It sounds like you are saying this is not a commercial use. For Marriott, it seems fair that they should allow Points owner to rent out days/weeks they can't use or bank since they allow Weeks owners to do it. For DVC, everyone is a Points owner so I think it is more likely they could enforce rules consistently.


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## Dean (Mar 7, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> So if you have a reservation and you are at risk of losing it, then are you saying the Marriott DVC Points program and DVC would both be okay if we rented it out? It sounds like you are saying this is not a commercial use. For Marriott, it seems fair that they should allow Points owner to rent out days/weeks they can't use or bank since they allow Weeks owners to do it. For DVC, everyone is a Points owner so I think it is more likely they could enforce rules consistently.


Like many things in timeshares there are the rules, the real rules as implemented, what we think when we read the rules and what the 600# gorilla wants to do.  I think the technical rules for ownership are pretty standard and they include being able to rent out what you own.  Commercial use, where you have the ability to rent at all, means that the company has to be very liberal in defining commercial use.  The enforcement or definition must fall where that even one who rents their points would say the situation is commercial.  DVC's definition does IMO.  They don't want these issues to go to court if they can help it realizing the courts routinely side with the individual in such matters.  Marriott's trust is a little different since there's not necessarily a hard underlying asset, they could have had more leeway in limiting the option if they wanted.  So yes, this would not be commercial use and the amount of profit or dollar amount would not be part of the definition for several reasons.  For Marriott weeks and Marriott Trust Points, just think of them as 2 separate timeshares with a sharing feature which is technically accurate as well.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 7, 2018)

Dean said:


> Like many things in timeshares there are the rules, the real rules as implemented, what we think when we read the rules and what the 600# gorilla wants to do.  I think the technical rules for ownership are pretty standard and they include being able to rent out what you own.  Commercial use, where you have the ability to rent at all, means that the company has to be very liberal in defining commercial use.  The enforcement or definition must fall where that even one who rents their points would say the situation is commercial.  DVC's definition does IMO.  They don't want these issues to go to court if they can help it realizing the courts routinely side with the individual in such matters.  Marriott's trust is a little different since there's not necessarily a hard underlying asset, they could have had more leeway in limiting the option if they wanted.  So yes, this would not be commercial use and the amount of profit or dollar amount would not be part of the definition for several reasons.  For Marriott weeks and Marriott Trust Points, just think of them as 2 separate timeshares with a sharing feature which is technically accurate as well.



Thanks Dean. As always, your input is very helpful.


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