# Powhatan Owners Association



## Andi (Nov 17, 2007)

Does anyone have any info on the amendment that is being sent to each owner concerning turning over the running of the timeshares to the owners or is this another ploy by the developers to get more money.  Any information anyone has about this i would appreciate hearing from you.  I hope it can be taken away from the developers but still have my doubts.

Andi


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## timeos2 (Nov 17, 2007)

*Isn't an easy read*

I read through it and it doesn't seem to be addressing the long overdue turnover to owner control but does seem to be requesting a super power to alter the resort documents with very little notice and control.  I'd be very suspicious of exactly what they are requesting.


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## Patty (Nov 18, 2007)

The letter did not seem to be giving real control to the owners.  It looks like just a new name for the owner advisory group with more power for the developer to do as it wants.


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## Pup (Nov 19, 2007)

Just received our maintanence for 2008. Ugh- up another 10%. That indoor pool was a mess when I was there in August. I hope they work on it....


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## timeos2 (Nov 19, 2007)

Pup said:


> Just received our maintanence for 2008. Ugh- up another 10%. That indoor pool was a mess when I was there in August. I hope they work on it....



That pool has been "being repaired" during our last three visits from 2004 to 2006. It isn't done yet?  What a great example of ineptitude by whoever is in charge of that project.


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## Skinsfan1311 (Nov 20, 2007)

Pup said:


> Just received our maintanence for 2008. Ugh- up another 10%. That indoor pool was a mess when I was there in August. I hope they work on it....



:annoyed:     I feel your pain!      

If you really want to get annoyed, read the accompanying financial statement...


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## JoeMid (Nov 20, 2007)

timeos2 said:


> I read through it and it doesn't seem to be addressing the long overdue turnover to owner control but does seem to be requesting a super power to alter the resort documents with very little notice and control.  I'd be very suspicious of exactly what they are requesting.


They are basically requesting MORE power to ramrod other changes through with even less of a chance of owners having a say.:ignore:



Patty said:


> The letter did not seem to be giving real control to the owners.  It looks like just a new name for the owner advisory group with more power for the developer to do as it wants.


What owner advisory group?  That group is being dissolved by Diamond; They now have two 'yes' men owners on the Board.  If they were smart enough to know what's going on, they sure don't admit to it.  Diamond says they don't need the advisory group with these two owners on the Board.  If the two owners on the board ever decided to get a backbone, they would always be outvoted.


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## Pup (Nov 20, 2007)

We really love our 4 bedroom unit, but with maitanence at almost $1000, it is getting crazy. We will hang on to it for a few more years but if things don't change- it will be time to sell


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## JoeMid (Nov 20, 2007)

Pup said:


> We really love our 4 bedroom unit, but with maitanence at almost $1000, it is getting crazy. We will hang on to it for a few more years but if things don't change- it will be time to sell


~$930 for 2008, 2009    ~$1000 for sure!  Still not outrageous for two complete 2BR units as long as they're properly maintained (now there's the sticking point).


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## Pup (Nov 20, 2007)

JoeMid said:


> ~$930 for 2008, 2009    ~$1000 for sure!  Still not outrageous for two complete 2BR units as long as they're properly maintained (now there's the sticking point).



I guess you're right. The fees have just skyrocketed over the past few years and this past summer the indoor pool was unusable. For all this money I want a indoor pool that is clean and functions!


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## JoeMid (Nov 20, 2007)

Pup said:


> I guess you're right. The fees have just skyrocketed over the past few years and this past summer the indoor pool was unusable. For all this money I want a indoor pool that is clean and functions!


I agree with that.  Sunterra and their predecessors held MFs artificially low to help sales and those MFs included lots of money for the grounds and none for reserves.


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## dougp26364 (Nov 20, 2007)

I love it. In the past I've seen complaints that Powhatten hasn't been maintained and it was the idiot's running Sunterra that were destroying the resort. Now when MF's start to climb to were they need to be to bring the resort back up to standards and maintain it properly people are complaining that the MF's are to high.

You can't have one thing without the other. Either you're going to have low MF's and a poorly maintained resort that might not be worth what you paid for it, even if you purchased resale, or you'll have a very nice, maybe even great resort but your MF's will be equivilent to industry standards. 

As has been pointed out $1,000 for what is essentially two 2 bedroom units is still cheap! I have 3 bedroom units that are already over the $1,000 mark. I have two bedroom units that are in the $800 to $900 range. The only "cheap" MF units I have are in Branson, MO. One of those resorts has absolutely NO amenities and the other, while nice, not nearly the amenities of most timeshare resorts. All the rest are $800 +.

Yes I can pretty much guarentee you that your fee's for those 4 bedroom LO units are going to go higher. I can easily see them getting to the $2,000 range in the next 4 to 5 years but, you'll have (or had better have) a top quality resort rather than a tired, run down resort you complain about and a big SA to get it back up to what you initially purchased. I'm certain someone would probably even try to get a class action suit going against the management for allowing the resort to run down until it had no value at all on the resale market. 

As I see it, timeshare HOA/BOD's have little to no choice about maintaining a resort. It MUST be maintained or it will fall into disrepair and become worthless as a place to vacation, exchange and/or sell and rent. HOA/BOD's have a financial responsibility to owners to maintain the resort and will have to collect to money to do this. Keeping MF's low is a popular thing to do but is it the right thing to do? I've already seen it mentioned that the indoor pool has been closed for a number of years. Is that really how you want a timeshare resort maintained? Somehow I don't really think the answer could ever be yes.

Expect those MF's for the 4 bedroom units to climb higher. I see another $300 to $400 jump for the next 2 or 3 years.


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## timeos2 (Nov 20, 2007)

*Let your contractor set the cost, do the work & pay the bills? I don't think so*



dougp26364 said:


> I love it. In the past I've seen complaints that Powhatten hasn't been maintained and it was the idiot's running Sunterra that were destroying the resort. Now when MF's start to climb to were they need to be to bring the resort back up to standards and maintain it properly people are complaining that the MF's are to high.



Part of the problem is the past attempts by management to "improve" things using regular or special assessment fees have been badly mismanaged - see the indoor pool saga as one glaring example of many.  

Having once endured that type of management at one of our resorts and seeing first hand how poorly it handled a major renovation I would tend to agree that some management companies simply aren't capable. It's not just the money.  Resort renovation is a demanding job. What there should be is an owners group deciding what needs to be done, how to pay for it and overseeing the project.  Usually that would be the HOA Board but, in this case, the very group that has, up to now, been unable to handle the work are also the ones in charge. The fox and hen house comes to mind.  

In my view to really fix whats wrong at Powhatan the control needs to be turned over to the owners.  As long as the management / developer controls the resort and Board it will never be corrected.


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## Pup (Nov 21, 2007)

dougp26364 said:


> I love it. In the past I've seen complaints that Powhatten hasn't been maintained and it was the idiot's running Sunterra that were destroying the resort. Now when MF's start to climb to were they need to be to bring the resort back up to standards and maintain it properly people are complaining that the MF's are to high.
> 
> You can't have one thing without the other. Either you're going to have low MF's and a poorly maintained resort that might not be worth what you paid for it, even if you purchased resale, or you'll have a very nice, maybe even great resort but your MF's will be equivilent to industry standards.
> 
> ...


 I think anyone in their right mind would complain if their MF's doubled over the past 4 years or so. Were they low? Yes - Will I stay if they rise to $2000? No way! This is Virgina- not Aruba


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## Andi (Nov 21, 2007)

*Maintenance Fees*

I would not mind paying higher mf if the resort showed any improvement as the fees increase but this has not happened.  I'm not sure our developer, who control the owners association, are not more interested in building more ts than maintaining the ones they have. You don't have to be to smart to realize  the money is not in mf. I wish someone would start a class action suit to take control away from the developers.  I would certainly join it.

Andi


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## JoeMid (Nov 21, 2007)

Andi said:


> I would not mind paying higher mf if the resort showed any improvement as the fees increase but this has not happened.  I'm not sure our developer, who control the owners association, are not more interested in building more ts than maintaining the ones they have. You don't have to be to smart to realize  the money is not in mf. I wish someone would start a class action suit to take control away from the developers.  I would certainly join it.
> Andi


Oh, but there is money in MFs!  Many management companies, and in this case Diamond/Sunterra, get a percentage of what it costs to run the resort, the more it costs, the more they make.  They wouldn't want control, to stay in management control, if there wasn't money to be made.


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## dougp26364 (Nov 21, 2007)

Andi said:


> I would not mind paying higher mf if the resort showed any improvement as the fees increase but this has not happened.  I'm not sure our developer, who control the owners association, are not more interested in building more ts than maintaining the ones they have. You don't have to be to smart to realize  the money is not in mf. I wish someone would start a class action suit to take control away from the developers.  I would certainly join it.
> 
> Andi




Keep in mind that DRI has only had control of Sunterra for a few months. With 95 resorts in the system it's not going to be an overnight sort of thing. MF's have been artificially low for years. You can't always make big improvements (or necessary maintenance) until there's cash to do them.

Now, if it goes a couple of years under DRI's control and nothing improves but MF's keep going higher, then I'll be singing a far different tune. For now I'm not sure tossing the new management company out with the old one is good policy. I'd at least like to give them a chance before tossing them out along with the old management. 

I certainly understand Sunterra owners anxiety at the increases in fee's. Especially since previous Sunterra management appears to have been so bad. But, if you expect to have MF's that are $500 for two prime season 2 bedroom units (4 bedroom LO) you're living on fantasy island. MF's for two 2 bedroom units in prime season are going to get a lot closer to $2,000 than stay under $1,000. 

I predict that MF's system wide with DRI/Sunterra will average over $1,000/year before the next two years pass and, in the next 10 years will be at least $1,500 per two bedroom unit (probably closer to $2,000 by 2017).


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## timeos2 (Nov 21, 2007)

dougp26364 said:


> Keep in mind that DRI has only had control of Sunterra for a few months. With 95 resorts in the system it's not going to be an overnight sort of thing. MF's have been artificially low for years. You can't always make big improvements (or necessary maintenance) until there's cash to do them.
> 
> Now, if it goes a couple of years under DRI's control and nothing improves but MF's keep going higher, then I'll be singing a far different tune. For now I'm not sure tossing the new management company out with the old one is good policy. I'd at least like to give them a chance before tossing them out along with the old management.



Doug - Very valid points. But the poor people at Powhatan have been hearing the same type of thing (we have new management so give us a few years, we have new buildings coming so give us a few years, we had personnel changes - about every nine months it seems - give us time to get up to speed) for over a decade. It's unfortunate that DRI steps in and expectations are high but the time to get things in shape has come and gone,  If Sunterra had turned it over to the owners as requested 3 or 4 years ago DRI wouldn't have the mess they inherited now.  I can fully understand the owners frustration and anger at "it will take more time" no matter who says it or why.

Hopefully DRI knew what they were getting and have a plan to move much quicker than could normally be expected to address the needs of this long suffering and once proud resort. If they can't do it they should turn it over to the owners and let them bring in management that can.


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## derb (Nov 21, 2007)

DRI drove the Jockey Club into the ground, bleed it and only now, after they dissolved their relationship with DRI, has JC risen to be a very good resort.  I don't hold out much hope for Sunterra under DRI's rule.  How may good reports of their management of Polo Towers have you heard?


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## dougp26364 (Nov 22, 2007)

timeos2 said:


> Doug - Very valid points. But the poor people at Powhatan have been hearing the same type of thing (we have new management so give us a few years, we have new buildings coming so give us a few years, we had personnel changes - about every nine months it seems - give us time to get up to speed) for over a decade. It's unfortunate that DRI steps in and expectations are high but the time to get things in shape has come and gone,  If Sunterra had turned it over to the owners as requested 3 or 4 years ago DRI wouldn't have the mess they inherited now.  I can fully understand the owners frustration and anger at "it will take more time" no matter who says it or why.
> 
> Hopefully DRI knew what they were getting and have a plan to move much quicker than could normally be expected to address the needs of this long suffering and once proud resort. If they can't do it they should turn it over to the owners and let them bring in management that can.



Hopefully they'll get things done quickly. Getting the indoor pool going again and changing out the soft goods to higher quality would be a good start. Unfortunately, most owners visit their resort maybe once per year.....if that. That makes it tough for owners to see/feel the improvements unless they read about it hear or somewhere else. We haven't spent a week at Polo Towers for a couple of years now and, as it stands with the other weeks we own in Vegas, we probably won't be in residence there until after MGM's City Center is completed.



derb said:


> DRI drove the Jockey Club into the ground, bleed it and only now, after they dissolved their relationship with DRI, has JC risen to be a very good resort.  I don't hold out much hope for Sunterra under DRI's rule.  How may good reports of their management of Polo Towers have you heard?



I was essentially saying this same thing about the time DRI was rumored to be buying out Sunterra and taking it private. I haven't been thrilled with the way Polo Towers has been neglected/managed for the last few years. Requiring a SA greater than $1,000 to bring PT's back up to standards for modern/newer timeshares is an example IMO of HOA/BOD mismanagement. Despite increases of over 10% for all MF's at the Suite's as Polo Towers, reserve funding remains to low IMO. The reserve funding for a 2 bedroom unit is only $45. If more cash isn't put into reserves I feel that in another 10 to 15 years we'll be right back in the same situation and facing a large SA just to keep the resort up to standards. 

I've spoken personally with Mr. Cloobeck  and I feel he's sincere when he says he's going to bring DRI/Sunterra up to the standards of some of the best timeshares in the industry. History, however, shows me something different. I have yet to converse with a JC owner that was ever very happy with DRI and I haven't been as pleased with Polo Towers over the last 3 or 4 years. He's got a lot of work to do to get the majority happy. On the plus side, if you look at the last few months, he has been getting that work done at a remarkable pace. That in itself is very encouraging. I am very hopeful that the entire DRI/Sunterra managed resort system will eventually be some of the better resorts out there and in higher demand for exchange, thus improving both internal exchange comforts and creating higher demand for DRI/Sunterra resorts in I.I., thus increasing exchange power within I.I.

But, as the saying goes, only time will tell. At any rate the one thing I'm certain of is that MF's will increase at resorts that have not been collecting enough to keep them up to a higher standard. Let's face it. $1,000 for a 4 bedroom unit that locks out into two full 2 bedroom units is dirt cheap. Many 2 bedroom units at better resorts have MF's of $700 to $1,000 each. That would put the proper MF for a 4 bedroom LO unit nearer $1,400 to $2,000 rather than $800. 

Like I said, look for those Powhatten MF's to go up significantly yet again next year as they're brought more into line with what it really takes to keep that resort running in top shape. I'm only hoping that they're able to bring the resort quality up as quickly as the MF's but, that's not how it usually works. What worries me most is that the default rate could climb to high as owners have been frustrated over the years. That could cause an unexpected deficit in cash reserves making it harder to get the work done for lack of collected funds. If that happens Powhatten owners will be left with an extremely bad taste in their mouths.


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