# New official "skim" thread



## Dave M (Jul 27, 2010)

There are some on this forum who love to discuss the skim. This thread is the place to do it. 

Those who choose to turn other threads into a skim discussion or a skim warning, to the consternation of the many who have complained to me and those who have complained on this forum, can expect to be suspended from posting. Such constant derailing of threads violates the "Be Courteous" rule.

So post away in this thread, but not in threads devoted to another topic.

Since this is a post in my capacity as moderator, responses agreeing or disagreeing with my message are inappropriate.

Dave M
BBS Moderator


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## GregT (Jul 27, 2010)

Dave,

I understand your interest in establishing this and consolidating the many comments into one thread.  

My issues with the Skim are well understood (including by Marriott), and I will try to summarize The Skim as I see it.

For definition, I propose an example if a week needs 4,500 points to book via Marriott. But Marriott offers you 4,100 points if you redeem your week for points.  You've been skimmed 400 points, or approximately 10%.  We think the average skim is between 7-22%, across all properties.

My key points:

*1.  Unfortunately, you now have less points to work with to book a new reservation
2.  In a points system, the points you have to work with are important, they are the currency to make reservations.*
3.  You may not have enough points to book a week at your own resort (or to book a "like for like" trade into another resort of comparable demand)
4. When you go to book the reservation you want, you will likely compensate for not having enough points by a) booking 6 nights versus 7   b) travel in a shoulder season   c) get a lower valued view   d) buy 1,000 points from Marriott for $9,200  e) borrowing points from next year

These are decisions that you make because your points were skimmed, and for each individual that may be acceptable. 

Marriott views this trade-off as a "price" for the flexibility you have to book any week, any resort, any length of stay.   Other point systems charge fees for reservations, housekeeping, etc.  Marriott elected to roll the fees into the skim.  They also state that units will sit partially empty and that the spread is to compensate for those nights.   The hidden value of your skim can be significant, and dwarf the out of pocket costs we are accustomed to.  I use as a bench-mark the $0.40 per point in MFs -- for the person skimmed 400 points above, that $160 annually in hidden cost.  For some people it's much much higher.

Marriott's position about an empty room for a night(s) (ie, breakage) is a weak argument as the MF has been paid and Marriott elected not to implement a short-term rental program (like HGVC/Worldmark/Wyndham) to fill those empty rooms.  Those systems have highly effective programs to fill empty units, whereas Marriott has permanently priced in these assumed vacancies via the skim.

Points systems are tremendous, and I am a huge fan (I own two of them).   Marriott has the best timeshare properties around, in the best locations, and the combination of a point system with those properties promises to be powerful.

How will Marriott benefit from The Skim?

Marriott will profit from the skimmed points -- possibly by renting the remaining night(s), possibly by selling 1,000 point packages @ $9.20 each to the owner who has less points to work with that they should have, possibly by renting points directly to the skimmed owner.  Many owners will borrow from next year's points to make up for lost points, which will degrade next year's vacation alternatives.

Many TUGgers feel that the skim is acceptable because Marriott is a for-profit organization, and has developed a points system that appears to be extremely appealing.  Many TUGgers who bought their properties for trading object less to the skim because they have enough points to do what they want to do anyway.  I am happy for my TUGging colleagues.

The Skim does not affect me personally.  I love my fixed weeks and use them for personal use -- if I ever did redeem my weeks for points, Marriott would give me plenty of points to work with.  But I had an immediately, visceral reaction to the skim, and it's not changed -- I view it the skim as a hidden, disguised (significant) cost, and not indicative of the fairness I had expected from Marriott.   

I had long respected Marriott as a customer-oriented company that took care of their loyal customers.  I continue to struggle with what I believe is a strong-arm tactic, required by Marriott if you want to use the new system.  It has affected my loyalty to Marriott and I generally am an extremely loyal customer.

All this being said, I have enrolled.  Marriott properties are among the best in the world, and I expect to one day be able to rent points inexpensively and use them for reservations.   I don't expect to ever redeem my properties for points, and therefore will be just a non-active participant, using the system differently than as designed, but I think effectively for me.    This is a personal decision for all, and I wish all the best in their evaluation.

I guess, 30+ days later, it is time for me to move on, and I will.

Best to all,

Greg


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## MikeZ (Jul 27, 2010)

GregT said:


> Dave,
> 
> I understand your interest in establishing this, and consolidating the many comments into one thread.
> 
> My issues with the Skim are well understood (including by Marriott), and I will try to summarize the reason people should care (and object to), the skim.



My summary:

Skim is bad

Marriott likes Skim

Skim stays

I have a lot more, but that pretty much sums it up for me!  Also-everything GregT says!


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## pipet (Jul 27, 2010)

Just wanted to point out that while I have noticed some hijacking, there are a lot of cases where people who aren't complaining about skim bring it up as part of their calculation(s), etc, so then some of the following responses address skim again.  Some of the hijacking is not deliberate but following the meandering path of the threads.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 27, 2010)

At this point in time I don't really think it matters anymore. Either you accept it as a cost of changing a legacy week for points (sort of like foreign currancy exchanges at the airport. We all know we're getting ripped off but some do it anyway) or, you don't. If you don't, all you have to do is not convert your week to points.

I'm disappointed because I was anticipating a program much like many of the others out there. I was ready to convert my weeks to points and see what I could do. With the loss of value know labled as the skim, I'll probably never do that. Marriott effectively locked me out of their points system unless I want to buy additional points and pay additional MF's on those points just to reserve a week in the season I want with the view we want. I already have that locked in with my weeks based ownership so, I'm not going to change.

We own units in two points based reservations systems that work great. Why Marriott went the direction they did is beyond me but, the cost to go with their points based system if far to high for me to participate.


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## MikeZ (Jul 27, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> At this point in time I don't really think it matters anymore. Either you accept it as a cost of changing a legacy week for points (sort of like foreign currancy exchanges at the airport. We all know we're getting ripped off but some do it anyway) or, you don't. If you don't, all you have to do is not convert your week to points.



Doug,

That is true for the folks who have been here for the last five weeks going through this program with a fine-tooth comb.  But, there are owners who still no nothing about this issue, and are at presentations right now (well, maybe in Hawaii!) being told about all the great benefits of the changes, without the little caveat about this thing called SKIM!  If for no other reason, it needs to stay front and center on TUG for a while...

And, I do agree.  Once the situation has been fully worked through be an owner, move on!  Marriott is not moving on this issue, and no one expects them to in the future.  Each owner has to assess their own situation.  Thank goodness this forum is here to give the complete picture...


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## BocaBoy (Jul 28, 2010)

I own seven deeds at five Marriott resorts and I am not bothered by what many refer to as the "skim".  I think "skim" is a loaded political word designed to elicit negative emotions rather than enlighten the discussion.

The reason other systems give you the number of points you need to exchange back into your own resort is because you need to use points to stay there.  It is all points based.  With Interval, you had an exchange fee (and in my opinion it is pretty high).  You do not have such a fee with Marriott.  It is not like we got something at no cost that now they are taking away.

And remember, this is an EXCHANGE SYSTEM for weeks owners.


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## scrapngen (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> I own seven deeds at five Marriott resorts and I am not bothered by what many refer to as the "skim".  I think "skim" is a loaded political word designed to elicit negative emotions rather than enlighten the discussion.
> 
> The reason other systems give you the number of points you need to exchange back into your own resort is because you need to use points to stay there.  It is all points based.  With Interval, you had an exchange fee (and in my opinion it is pretty high).  You do not have such a fee with Marriott.  It is not like we got something at no cost that now they are taking away.
> 
> And remember, this is an EXCHANGE SYSTEM for weeks owners.



I bet you wouldn't be so complacent about SKIM if you only owned one week. Especially one that is not allocated many points. It's easy for you (or at least easier) to lose a couple days worth to get the benefit of "flexibility," but try losing those same couple days when you only start with 7!! Plus you are benefitting from less fees that you would already pay to lock-off, etc, with so many weeks. However, the one week person most likely ends up paying more fees. You also get a special Premier Plus status that gives you additional flexibility and benefits that most others won't have when joining DP. So it makes sense that you are not bothered by this - you are in the lucky position of being one of those 5% of owners who come out ahead in this system. But don't assume that everyone else will and/or _should_ see this the same way you do.  

Seems to me under the new system the small users are asked to subsidize the larger owners - same skim percentage, same fees, but a lot less activity/ rewards. (lock-off, trades, etc. that you used to pay individually for, stays that cost the extra in housekeeping, etc. )

disclaimer: I would actually be at Premier level, but I still feel I'd lose out as I do not own lock-off's, and my high valued weeks still don't equate with other HI high valued weeks due to skim.


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## pipet (Jul 28, 2010)

*Why some can't & don't move on...*

Greg's post sums up a lot of what I am feeling and a lot of why I think Marriott should not have included skim - that very big point about the MFs already being paid on our weeks seems to be overlooked.  

I don't begrudge any company from making a reasonable profit, but I do expect them to be fair about it.  This new system is not fair.  If they had merely eliminated uptrades, a lot would be bummed, but most people knew they were getting uptrades and would understand.  *Instead, they eliminated not only uptrading but equivalent trading unless you tap into your next year's week.*

Because they have rolled out the points system, now, whether we convert or not, there are going to be number pushers who compare their II trades to point values.  _It's going to come up whenever someone feels like they have made a good deal on II.  While a few of you may exchange without looking at a point chart, I know a lot will._  Because I am planning my next summer vacation, I already know that I'll be able to use way more points with II than I was given even if I factor in an exchange and XYZ fee, and I have a decent amount of points for my week. 

For example, I'm looking at a 2BR deposit with II worth 5075 pts and summer travel:
book back into HI - 4575 pts
book XYZ - Orlando 2225 pts
The above assumes no view in HI to a resort that cost a few less pts than my own and going to a "lesser" Marriott in Orlando.  This scenario alone is worth at least 6800 pts.   Even accounting for fees, show me how I can get that?  I hate sacrificing my view, but looking at what I can get instead, at least I can feel compensated (I'd be willing to give up that XYZ if I could have my view - something that I thought points would let me do).  If I want, I can also try to get Aruba or Lake Tahoe with an AC.  That's worth another 2925 minimum pts (using Aruba no view as a benchmark) for only $299.  Certainly, nice perks for giving up a nice week...

I'm sure somewhere somehow someone will come up with some positive points scenarios other than spending 9 weeks in a 2BR at Harbor Club for all of Dec & Jan (which honestly to me seems better than a studio in the summer desert scenario!).  I really would like to see it.  Show me the numbers!  I can understand numbers.  I'd be a points supporter immediately if I even found equivalence in the system.

Anyway, I know some people feel this horse is beat to death, *but as long as there is skim, it isn't going away.*  Someone mentioned that there will be people who are annoyed about it in 10 years, and I totally agree.  I will probably be one of them!  I am not going to judge others for moving on, but on the same token, don't tell me to move on.  Mind you, I am not going to give myself an ulcer worrying over it, but I am going to think about the value of my week on the years I go into trading mode.  How can I not?  Where there is a metric, some people will look.  If I had an HGVC week, I'd be doing the same, except I would know that I could book any week in my home resort, no problem, so I wouldn't have a feeling of annoyance.

*By the way, we could call skim another name if it's too political.  Would that help? How about loss of equivalent trading power, but that might be too negative...  We could even call it "built-in exchange fee."  However, I'd much rather pay a separate exchange fee for each transaction than lose my ability to make the exchange at all or be required to tap into the next year (thus reducing my trading power in perpetuity) just to get "the same."  Whatever name we call it, whether it's skim or built-in exchange fee, the result is the same: reduced trading power.*

And even the high value multi-week owner pays the "built-in exchange fee" if he or she converts to points.


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## gblotter (Jul 28, 2010)

I will not be joining the new points program, but the skim has little to do with my decision.

The appeal of a points-based timeshare program is its greater flexibility, but that flexibility brings with it increased operating costs.  I can accept the concept of the skim as a way to cover the associated expenses for shorter stays and more usage options.  I would certainly prefer to see the skim used to cover those additional costs rather than higher maintenance fees.  The skim affects most those who exchange most, and I suppose that is as it should be.

Following wise advice from others, I chose to purchase at resorts that I like to visit.  I trade only occasionally, and I expect that I will continue to primarily visit my home resorts in the future.  So for me, joining the new points system doesn't really make sense (with or without the skim).

While I can appreciate the resourcefulness of those who are able to leverage one week into four through savvy trading, I frankly don't have the time or energy to focus on that.  I am mostly interested in preserving my ability to make 12-month reservations at my home resorts.  I'm hopeful of being able to do that as in the past without worrying about points or skims.  Given the recent fiasco experienced by others when trying to use the new points-based reservation system, I feel I'm making the right choice to remain a legacy weeks owner.

I have been satisfied with my past exchanges through Interval International.  I expect that Maui Ocean Club will continue to trade well outside of the new points program.


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## windje2000 (Jul 28, 2010)

On the merits, the features of the Marriott point system would appear to rank at the bottom of any comparative analysis of point systems.  As I understand it, no other point system skims. Many have immortal points.  

But here's the real question for me - is the skim is a harbinger?  

If Marriott will bake a concept like skim into their program, respond only obliquely and slowly to straightforward questions about the operation of the new exchange system and tolerate (if not encourage) sales staff misrepresentations regarding numerous plan and special offer provisions to the customer base, 

*what's next*?

Marriott will tweak this plan over time. Will the plan provisions change in a positive or negative way?  Time will tell.


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## gblotter (Jul 28, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> But here's the real question for me - is the skim is a harbinger?


It all boils down to trust.  Does Marriott deserve the trust of its large and loyal customer base now that the details of this new points program have become known?  Personally, I have lost a lot of trust in Marriott since June 20.


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## DanCali (Jul 28, 2010)

GregT said:


> Dave,
> 
> For definition, I propose an example if a week needs 4,500 points to book via Marriott. But Marriott offers you 4,100 points if you redeem your week for points.  You've been skimmed 400 points, or approximately 10%.  We think the average skim is between 7-22%, across all properties.



In the case of floating weeks, I think it makes the most sense to think of skim as how much one gets shortchanged relative to the average points required to trade into your season.

The way I see it, a float week has some trading power. If you got the average points required to trade into your season, then the total points given to owners at a resort would equal the total points required to fill up that resort. Hence, the average points required to trade into your season represents the "fair" trading power of your week. Getting anything less than that is "skim. " It creates a situation where Marriott awards owners in a season less than they require to fill up that season. Those are excess points Marriott can then rent out in the form of points or days. And ALL owners apparently got less than the average of their season, including fixed week owners. 

If you are not sure if you are getting skimmed, use *this spreadsheet* to compare to the average in your season. The difference between the average points in your season and what Marriott gave you is the "skim". This is equivalent to a fee (e.g. $0.50/point) which is incurred once you convert to points and affects your ability to do like for like exchanges. Where you use those skimmed points and whether you use them to make a reservation at your home resort in a low demand week is irrelevant for purposes of understanding skim. The points is that if Marriott gave owners the average points for their season, owners would have more points to work with.


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## DanCali (Jul 28, 2010)

MikeZ said:


> That is true for the folks who have been here for the last five weeks going through this program with a fine-tooth comb.  But, there are owners who still no nothing about this issue, and are at presentations right now (well, maybe in Hawaii!) being told about all the great benefits of the changes, without the little caveat about this thing called SKIM!  If for no other reason, it needs to stay front and center on TUG for a while...





pipet said:


> there are a lot of cases where people who aren't complaining about skim bring it up as part of their calculation(s), etc, so then some of the following responses address skim again.  Some of the hijacking is not deliberate but following the meandering path of the threads.





pipet said:


> Anyway, I know some people feel this horse is beat to death, *but as long as there is skim, it isn't going away.*  Someone mentioned that there will be people who are annoyed about it in 10 years, and I totally agree.  I will probably be one of them!  I am not going to judge others for moving on, but on the same token, don't tell me to move on.



As for putting the skim topic in a thread that will likely fall to page 30 by next week, I couldn't agree more with the posters above. The skim is a real issue and comes up whenever the "flat fee" fallacy come up, whenever someone compares an II trade to a points trade etc. The only way it will go away is if Marriott makes it go away...

I respect the fact that some frequent posters who have not lost faith in Marriott may be sick and tired of hearing about skim. I will certainly keep that in mind and will try not to bring it up unnecessarily. But in cases where it's warranted people will bring it up, whether it's me or someone else.

But just for the record, I also have to put up with ever optimistic posts that are full of confidence Marriott will "right the ship". At least the skim is very real and grounded in reality. On the other hand, I have yet to see a glimmer of light that Marriott is trying to make things right. They just give people more and more reasons to complain about this program by the day...


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## jimf41 (Jul 28, 2010)

Many posters are upset over the skim. Is this really a significant issue? The way I look at it is not. I will look at three resorts to explain my point, Ocean Pointe (MPB), Frenchmans Cove (MFC) and Newport Coast Villas (NVC). I own at MPB and MFC but not at NVC.

First, lets assume that no owner would use points to make a reservation if the point total he receives is less than the point total required to make the reservation. Next let’s put aside trades into II or MRP’s and just assume that this year, I used the calendars for 2012, everyone uses his week at the home resort. To keep this simple I’m going to use one room at each resort in all seasons. At MPB I’ll use a 2BDRM OS unit. At MFC and NCV a 2BDRM was used. 

At MPB there are three seasons Platinum, Gold and Silver. Platinum has 16 weeks, Gold 13 weeks and Silver 20 weeks. There are no Plus weeks at MPB. In the Platinum season there are six weeks where the week is given more points, 100 to be exact, than it costs to reserve with points. The other 13 weeks it costs more to reserve than you a given. In some cases a lot more. President’s week is about a 2000 point difference in Marriott’s favor. If everyone reserves points when its to their advantage and weeks when its not to their advantage then the owners come out 600 points ahead and Marriott loses 600 points. Is 600 points gain over an entire season a big deal? No but it is a loss. If the skim were eliminated and every owner at every resort made a 100 point profit on every week I think the comments about skim would be positive rather than negative. Gold week owners lose on every week in their season so those folks will all reserve their weeks as weeks. No gain for them but no loss either. Silver week owners fare better than Platinum and Gold. There are twenty weeks in Silver. Twelve weeks are positive for a total of 5950 points and 8 weeks are negative. That’s a total of 6550 points to the benefit of the owners. 

At MFC the picture is not as rosy. There are no weeks in any season that come out on the positive side for any owner. The owners at this resort all have to reserve as weeks not points.  While the resort was given a low point value for its weeks the up side is that it costs less to reserve with points. This isn’t a benefit to the owners at MFC but it sure is for other owners who want to trade into MFC. As an example a February week owner in MPB can trade into February at MFC and make 200 points on the deal. There is no way anyone can convince me that February in Florida is nicer than February in ST Thomas. I think Marriott screwed the pooch on this one. In this case I consider a trade for MPB into MFC an uptrade with 200 points left over. I will try for this exact points reservation and if I’m successful I will look at it as if I’m the one that skimmed Marriott.

At NVC the Gold season has 22 weeks, platinum 28 and there are two plus weeks. The Gold owners are in the same boat as the Gold owners at MPB. There is not one week where they win on the point difference. Theses owners should continue to use as they have in the past. The Platinum owners are evenly split. There are 14 weeks where they profit and 14 weeks where they lose. Again, if everyone reserves advantageously either under points or weeks the total win for the owners would be 8050 points.

So of 151 weeks that I’ve listed over three highly desirable resorts 32 are in the positive skim column and 119 are in the negative column. That works out to 21% of owners would benefit under points. That’s better than the 5% that has been mentioned in a previous thread. My point in this post is not to prove skim doesn’t exist, it does if you allow it to, but rather to point out that there are ways to play the new system to your benefit. I don’t think my analysis is going to convert anyone over to a point’s supporter. Instead of dwelling on the fact that we might have been handed a lemon, I prefer to make lemonade. I’d rather make Gin but they didn’t give us any Juniper berries.

One more thing, I did pick only three resorts. I’m sure some can pick three different ones and come up with entirely different results. Again, I’m not trying to convert anyone I’m just pointing out that the new system can be manipulated to our benefit.


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## BocaBoy (Jul 28, 2010)

scrapngen said:


> "I bet you wouldn't be so complacent about SKIM if you only owned one week. Especially one that is not allocated many points. It's easy for you (or at least easier) to lose a couple days worth to get the benefit of "flexibility," but try losing those same couple days when you only start with 7!!"
> 
> My response: The number of weeks I own has nothing to do with my view.  Any one week owner can still get his/her full week.  And in the vast majority of cases they can get 7 or more days at another resort.  Of course they cannot get 7 days at a higher cost resort, nor should they.
> 
> ...


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## modoaruba (Jul 28, 2010)

We own 4 weeks in Aruba.Under the old system we were able to exchange the weeks for Marriott points of 90,000.You could NOT get our week through Marriott for 90,000 points.There was ALWAYS a skim.
Since we use all of our weeks we were told by a staff member in Aruba that the new point system is not for us.We should stay with the old system.
We can always bank a week with II if we can't use one and be able to get it back later with nominal exchange fees.
Better yet,we can book a week through REDWEEK or such with the cost being sometimes less than the MFs.


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## DanCali (Jul 28, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> So of 151 weeks that I’ve listed over three highly desirable resorts 32 are in the positive skim column and 119 are in the negative column. That works out to 21% of owners would benefit under points. That’s better than the 5% that has been mentioned in a previous thread. My point in this post is not to prove skim doesn’t exist, it does if you allow it to, but rather to point out that there are ways to play the new system to your benefit. I don’t think my analysis is going to convert anyone over to a point’s supporter. Instead of dwelling on the fact that we might have been handed a lemon, I prefer to make lemonade. I’d rather make Gin but they didn’t give us any Juniper berries.
> 
> One more thing, I did pick only three resorts. I’m sure some can pick three different ones and come up with entirely different results. Again, I’m not trying to convert anyone I’m just pointing out that the new system can be manipulated to our benefit.



Jim, your interpretation of skim is just different than what appears to be most people's interpretation.

If one agrees that the skim is the difference between the average points required to trade into your season and what you were allocated then what you say is incorrect. Using that definition:


100% of weeks fall in the "negative skim column"



Where you make a reservation is completely irrelevant. In fact there is no more "home resort" once you convert to points.

It's ok to disagree on definitions but let's first clarify what we mean. Then people can decide for themselves.

Let's focus particularly on your resort - Ocean Pointe Silver. Those are weeks 18-21 and 35-50 below:

Week	Date	Season	2BR-OS	2BR-OF	3BR-OF
*1	7-Jan-11	P	4225	5225	5900
2	14-Jan-11	P	4225	5225	5900
3	21-Jan-11	P	4225	5225	5900
4	28-Jan-11	P	4725	5900	6500
5	4-Feb-11	P	4725	5900	6500
6	11-Feb-11	P	4725	5900	6500
7	18-Feb-11	P	6175	7675	8500
8	25-Feb-11	P	4725	5900	6500
9	4-Mar-11	P	4725	5900	6500
10	11-Mar-11	P	4725	5900	6500
11	18-Mar-11	P	4725	5900	6500
12	25-Mar-11	P	4725	5900	6500
13	1-Apr-11	P	4725	5900	6500
14	8-Apr-11	P	4225	5225	5900
15	15-Apr-11	P	4225	5225	5900
16	22-Apr-11	P	4225	5225	5900
17	29-Apr-11	P	4225	5225	5900*
*18	6-May-11	S	4225	5225	5900
19	13-May-11	S	2950	3675	4000
20	20-May-11	S	2950	3675	4000
21	27-May-11	S	2950	3675	4000*
*22	3-Jun-11	G	2950	3675	4000
23	10-Jun-11	G	2950	3675	4000
24	17-Jun-11	G	2950	3675	4000
25	24-Jun-11	G	2950	3675	4000
26	1-Jul-11	G	2950	3675	4000
27	8-Jul-11	G	2950	3675	4000
28	15-Jul-11	G	2950	3675	4000
29	22-Jul-11	G	2950	3675	4000
30	29-Jul-11	G	2950	3675	4000
31	5-Aug-11	G	2950	3675	4000
32	12-Aug-11	G	2950	3675	4000
33	19-Aug-11	G	2950	3675	4000
34	26-Aug-11	G	2950	3675	4000*
*35	2-Sep-11	S	2000	2675	2900
36	9-Sep-11	S	2000	2675	2900
37	16-Sep-11	S	2000	2675	2900
38	23-Sep-11	S	2000	2675	2900
39	30-Sep-11	S	2950	3675	4000
40	7-Oct-11	S	2950	3675	4000
41	14-Oct-11	S	2950	3675	4000
42	21-Oct-11	S	2950	3675	4000
43	28-Oct-11	S	2950	3675	4000
44	4-Nov-11	S	4225	5225	5900
45	11-Nov-11	S	4225	5225	5900
46	18-Nov-11	S	4225	5225	5900
47	25-Nov-11	S	4225	5225	5900
48	2-Dec-11	S	4225	5225	5900
49	9-Dec-11	S	4225	5225	5900
50	16-Dec-11	S	4225	5225	5900*
*51	23-Dec-11	P	4725	5900	6500
52	30-Dec-11	P	5175	6400	7175*

*Average	Silver		3270	4095	4540
Average	Gold		2950	3675	4000
Average	Platinum		4641	5771	6420*

My claim is that a 3BR in that season should get 4540 points because that is the average of the season. In reality it got 4225 points. So I say there is skim of 315 points. It doesn't matter what you do with the 4225 points - you lost 315.

I believe you are saying that you can book some weeks in that season for 2900 points or 4000 points so you come out ahead or even way ahead. I say it doesn't really matter because if you had 4540 points you could do the same thing and have 315 more points at the end of the day.

According to your interpretation, Marriott could have given you 3000 points instead of the already skimmed 4225 points. You should still be happy with that because you can book weeks 36-38 and come out ahead. 

By the way, would you be happy with 3000 points for your 3 BR?


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## DanCali (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Suppose I only owned my one Sabal Palms red week.  It gets 2150 points, which is not a lot.  I can reserve any week the old way in the red season.  Or I can use points and stay longer at SP in the off season.  Or I can use my 2150 points to stay at other resorts, many for more than a week.  I would not expect to be able to get a full week at the high cost resorts.



The average of Red Season weeks at Sabal Palms is 2268. You got 118 less. Is that not skim?

By what you say, getting 1500 points (instead of the skimmed 2150) would have also been ok for the reasons you state:


I can reserve any week the old way in the red season.


I can use points and stay longer at SP in the off season (white weeks require 1450 points and one red week, week 50, is also 1450 points).


I can use my 1500 points to stay at other resorts

You make it sound as long as you can reserve some week in your season with what you got (e.g. week 50 at Sabal for 1450 pts when the average of the season is 2268) that's ok. 

No offense, but this doesn't make any sense to me.


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## pipet (Jul 28, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> First, lets assume that no owner would use points to make a reservation if the point total he receives is less than the point total required to make the reservation.



Yes, you can try to game the system _if you can travel off season_, but anyone who books a week with points is getting less than what they gave.  Even if you don't choose to book certain weeks, what about someone trading in from somewhere else?  Because of the "built-in exchange fee," anyone who trades in with points is totally cancelling out any savings someone else sees from gaming.  If you use points to trade at other resorts, you have also paid a price for it.  

The fact of the matter is even if they eliminated skim, the high demand weeks would still be used.  Owners would not all the sudden make a profit on the system because that assumes they can all travel during lower demand weeks. 



BocaBoy said:


> Or I can use my 2150 points to stay at other resorts, many for more than a week.  I would not expect to be able to get a full week at the high cost resorts.



At HHI in the winter or the desert in summer, yes...

Seriously, that many points is quite limiting.   Not everyone can travel in the lowest season, and honestly, at that point, many are better off buying a Getaway since their MFs are much higher than the cost of renting off season.



BocaBoy said:


> I do admit that my fee savings is a greater benefit, but you need to keep it in perspective.  I spent over $200,000 buying timeshares so I cannot accept that you are subsidizing me!



The skim only applies if you convert to points.  With points, even with your multiple, high-valued weeks, you would end up paying quite a bit in fees to Marriott (and if anything you might expect they would give you of all people a break).  Have you calculated your point shortage just to see if the "fees" are reasonable or not?  Maybe to you it really is fair, but some of your weeks are subject to some pretty big skim.  If you truly use the system to make lots of 2 & 3 night stays, those built-in fees might very well be reasonable, but otherwise they are actually pretty high.

IMO, you can only say skim doesn't matter if you plan to convert your weeks to points!  If you're joining just for fee savings then of course it doesn't affect you.


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## pipet (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Of course they cannot get 7 days at a higher cost resort, nor should they.



This seems to be one of the main arguments for the point system, but how does this make skim OK? 

I understand you being a little annoyed with downtrading over the years.  I also understand a little resentment with seeing people at your more expensive resorts who traded in from somewhere with half the MFs and a fraction of the initial buy-in cost.  You were subsidizing their vacation!  Seeing uptraders at my resort just made me feel like I spent more than I needed (but then I bought developer, which I also think was not the wisest thing financially). 

OK, make things equitable with points.  Stop the uptrades, except in Flextime.  A lot wouldn't exactly be overjoyed, right, because they have benefited from uptrades.  However, making things equitable would not have resulted in all this outrage.  If things were equitable, people would understand the system.  If, instead of "built-in exchange fees," people could see exactly what they were paying for, people would understand.


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## GeNioS (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> My response: Of course they cannot get 7 days at a higher cost resort, *nor should they*.



Why not?  If someone is willing to travel on shorter notice and willing to pick up the rooms not taken by those with higher trading power, why shouldn't they be able to trade into a "higher cost" resort.

Also, let you forget that Marriott sold thousands of rooms selling exactly that feature.  Now that I'm more educated, I understand the "buy where you're willing travel" and "buy close enough to drive to" theories.  They make sense and definitely protect you against rule changes in regards to trading.

But Park City is extremely close to where I live....close enough to drive to?  Yeah...20 minutes away.  Other than one year when we had a family reunion and reserved a bunch of rooms to bring family in, I can't think of anytime I personally would need to spend a week there.  Yet Marriott sold how many countless weeks to Salt Lake City residents on the pitch that trading was the game to play and that by buying the lockoff I would even get 2 for 1.  And I assure you, when they discussed trading at the sales table, they weren't pitching the ability to trade into the off-season at Gitmo.

Once I learned the "game," I've been able to do fairly well (especially using flexchange) and although I now know I was crushed on the purchase price, I'm still able to consider myself happy because of the vacations I've taken.

So call me the ignorant person who bought into it or not, but Marriott sold the weeks based on the ability to trade them, even at 2 for 1 using the lockoff and sorry for expecting to do that.  This new program would make it impossible to make the trades I have in the past.  Fair enough...I won't join.  I signed the contract knowing that Marriott had the ability to make changes at anytime.  I figured it would happen.

But what I didn't count on was the resentment that I'm seeing from those who own more expensive weeks and are disturbed by the fact that "common folk" like myself have been able to infiltrate their "higher cost" resorts, even if getting there meant staying up until 3:00 in the morning to pick up a last minute week on flexchange.  I assure you the salesperson never mentioned I'd have to do that.

My two cents...(worth only one if I join)


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## pipet (Jul 28, 2010)

GeNioS said:


> Yet Marriott sold how many countless weeks to Salt Lake City residents on the pitch that trading was the game to play and that by buying the lockoff I would even get 2 for 1.  And I assure you, when they discussed trading at the sales table, they weren't pitching the ability to trade into the off-season at Gitmo.
> ....
> But what I didn't count on was the resentment that I'm seeing from those who own more expensive weeks and are disturbed by the fact that "common folk" like myself have been able to infiltrate their "higher cost" resorts, even if getting there meant staying up until 3:00 in the morning to pick up a last minute week on flexchange.  I assure you the salesperson never mentioned I'd have to do that.



This is a very good point, too.  OK, say the salespeople all lied and we were supposed to see through this.  We technically only bought our deeded week and nothing else, *but that was the Marriott-approved salespitch.* 

Just because I wasn't savvy enough to buy cheap and trade up doesn't mean the new system makes things better.  And honestly, my only problem with uptraders is that they were smarter than me for a long time !  I love good deals, so I have to admire what people have accomplished on their dime.  For those who remain in II, at least for a while, they can still get more for the dollar than I can, but I also appreciate that I do have some benefits: I have to get up early to reserve my primo week, but I know I have it w/o the waiting game, and I never worry about if I have the trading power to pull something.


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## windje2000 (Jul 28, 2010)

pipet said:


> This seems to be one of the main arguments for the point system, but how does this make skim OK?
> 
> I understand you being a little annoyed with downtrading over the years.  I also understand a little resentment with seeing people at your more expensive resorts who traded in from somewhere with half the MFs and a fraction of the initial buy-in cost.  You were subsidizing their vacation!  Seeing uptraders at my resort just made me feel like I spent more than I needed (but then I bought developer, which I also think was not the wisest thing financially).
> 
> OK, make things equitable with points.  Stop the uptrades, except in Flextime.  A lot wouldn't exactly be overjoyed, right, because they have benefited from uptrades.  However, making things equitable would not have resulted in all this outrage.  If things were equitable, people would understand the system.  If, instead of "built-in exchange fees," people could see exactly what they were paying for, people would understand.



You're unhappy because some low MF owner traded into your resort?  Why do you care?  

The owner of that unit paid the MF assigned to that unit and time.  Unless someone put a gun to that owners head, he made a voluntary decision to trade his occupancy for something else he preferred.  

Whether that's an up, down or sideways trade is that owner's private business - it matters not a whit to you.  

If you don't want to trade, don't trade.  Up down or sideways.  But don't take away someone else's freedom to choose to trade or not trade because you don't happen to agree with the terms of that trade.


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## MikeZ (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> My response: The number of weeks I own has nothing to do with my view.  Any one week owner can still get his/her full week.  And in the vast majority of cases they can get 7 or more days at another resort.  Of course they cannot get 7 days at a higher cost resort, nor should they.



HUH?  What about the SAME cost resort?  Since you now "own" at Waiohai and Ko Olina, you know that a Waiohai owner is well short of reserving the same week at Ko Olina with the same view.  And for the Ko Olina owner, it is even worse going back to Waiohai.

I think I understand that you are a Marriott employee (sorry if I am mistaken), but I am struggling to understand your perspective here, if you are an owner....

Whether or not the points disparity (skim) is real is not the issue here.  I have not yet made up my mind what I am going to do with the new program, but I can tell you that I have a lot less respect for Marriott because of the skim, and I know that the old way of using my weeks is now different...


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## rsackett (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> ... The number of weeks I own has nothing to do with my view.  Any one week owner can still get his/her full week.  And in the vast majority of cases they can get 7 or more days at another resort.  Of course they cannot get 7 days at a higher cost resort, nor should they.
> ...




The real issue is they can not get 7 nights at an equivalent resort.  Skim is Marriott's way of paying the bills/making money off the new system.  I feel it would have been much better to give full value and charge a minimal fee per trade.  

I will not give up 7 nights at my resort and not get 7 nights at an equivilant resort.  If I trade 7 nights for a 7 night stay at a resort it should not cost as much as getting 7 individual nights, or more spread out.

Ray


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## pipet (Jul 28, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> You're unhappy because some low MF owner traded into your resort?  Why do you care?
> 
> The owner of that unit paid the MF assigned to that unit and time.  Unless someone put a gun to that owners head, he made a voluntary decision to trade his occupancy for something else he preferred.
> 
> ...



*Did you read my entire post?* And that it was addressing a previous post?

I didnt say *I *was unhappy.   I love my resort.  It's just not the best trading resort for your dollar, but I didn't think about that when I bought it.  I don't blame anyone else for that!   In my case, rather than be unhappy with uptraders, it just made me realize that I didn't know how to use the system well.   I

However, what I was addressing is this: some owners have touted the new point system as a good thing since it makes uptrades impossible.  Why would they be unhappy with uptrades?  I think the cost they paid was probably a reason.  They may have thought it unfair for people who didn't pay a lot to get what they paid more for (in various posts I have seen this sentiment). 

Whether you agree with their sentiment or not, the new system is _not fair to anyone_ unless you do tons of short stays to use up the skim/built-in exchange fee.  The argument for the new system is that people now get what they paid for, but I am suggesting that is false!  I think we all, whether it be in Branson silver or MM1 fixed peak, we all get less than what we paid for.


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## windje2000 (Jul 28, 2010)

pipet said:


> *Did you read my entire post?* And that it was addressing a previous post?
> 
> I didnt say *I *was unhappy.   I love my resort.  It's just not the best trading resort for your dollar, but I didn't think about that when I bought it.  I don't blame anyone else for that!   In my case, rather than be unhappy with uptraders, it just made me realize that I didn't know how to use the system well.   I
> 
> ...



Please do not misundertake me -- my thoughts were directed at the sentiment expressed, not you    as the poster.  

A look at my posts will indicate that I am (at least currently) a skeptic of this 'plan.'


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## pipet (Jul 28, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Please do not misundertake me -- my thoughts were directed at the sentiment expressed, not you    as the poster.



LOL, I just don't want to be associated with the sentiment.

In all honesty, because of how Marriott sold TS in the past, the most pleasant point system would to be to give people what they were sold and follow a model more like HGVC.  HGVC has upped the points a bit at the newest resorts, but people do have enough points for the resorts that were in the system when they bought.  

Whatever people feel about the downtrading aspect, I can't ever say that Marriott "tricked" me or anything.  I was told that I could trade my week for another week in the Marriott system, even in other HI resorts, and that was/is true with II.  It was left up to the buyer to do the math that it wasn't a good deal at some places.   It may be an argument for points, but in the old system, if you wanted a trader for Orlando & such, don't buy HI.  It doesn't have anything to do with skim at all. 

And chiming in with the other HI owners: converting to points would mean that I lose one of the primary selling points for my week (getting trades into other HI weeks).  It doesn't matter if I am compensated a little for other downtrades if I can't do those trades.


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## jimf41 (Jul 28, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Jim, your interpretation of skim is just different than what appears to be most people's interpretation.
> 
> If one agrees that the skim is the difference between the average points required to trade into your season and what you were allocated then what you say is incorrect. Using that definition:
> 
> ...



Dan, I do understand your reasoning about the average skim. It's just that I can't imagine it ever really happening in practice. And while I don't understand your last question the answer is --No, I would not be happy with 3000 points.


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## jimf41 (Jul 28, 2010)

pipet said:


> Yes, you can try to game the system _if you can travel off season_, but anyone who books a week with points is getting less than what they gave.  Even if you don't choose to book certain weeks, what about someone trading in from somewhere else?  Because of the "built-in exchange fee," anyone who trades in with points is totally cancelling out any savings someone else sees from gaming.  If you use points to trade at other resorts, you have also paid a price for it.
> 
> The fact of the matter is even if they eliminated skim, the high demand weeks would still be used.  Owners would not all the sudden make a profit on the system because that assumes they can all travel during lower demand weeks.



In my example I did not compare a high season week to an off season week. I used weeks in the same season. 

As far as trading I cited a specific example of trading one high value week for another and demonstrated that the trader made points on that transaction. I suggest you reread my first post carefully.

 I said nothing or gave no example about going from a high season week to a low season week to make the system work.


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## tombo (Jul 28, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> Dan, I do understand your reasoning about the average skim. It's just that I can't imagine it ever really happening in practice. And while I don't understand your last question the answer is --No, I would not be happy with 3000 points.



At many resorts a platinum owner (for example) does not get enough points to book ANY platinum week. The skim results in owners not getting enough points to access ANY week in season at their home resort. So the 3000 point example using a number less than your lowest in season week is a "what if" in your situation, but it is reality for many using the points Marriott gives them if they deposit their week.


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## DanCali (Jul 28, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> Dan, I do understand your reasoning about the average skim. It's just that I can't imagine it ever really happening in practice. And while I don't understand your last question the answer is --No, I would not be happy with 3000 points.



My latest question was taking your argument to an extreme. You say you book October weeks for 4000 points. So the question should be (forget you got 4225 points) would you have been happy with 4005 points? Even if the average of the season is 4540? 

I'm sure you see my point that it's not ok if you just can reserve the weeks you vacation and have points left over. The fact that you are getting less than the average of your week means you are shortchanged on "trading power". If you had 4540 points you could do more. And 4540 points is what you should get based on what Marriott values your week.

I believe you understand how I view skim and that, based on my definition of skim, I'm right. I still disagree with how you view skim, and am not offended if you still disagree with my definition. But I think we both agree that you'd be better off with 4540 points that with 4005 or 4225 points


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## pipet (Jul 28, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> In my example I did not compare a high season week to an off season week. I used weeks in the same season.
> 
> As far as trading I cited a specific example of trading one high value week for another and demonstrated that the trader made points on that transaction. I suggest you reread my first post carefully.
> 
> I said nothing or gave no example about going from a high season week to a low season week to make the system work.



I only call it high & low because in some "seasons" have a very high variance in point cost.  In my own resort, I can "make" a few points if I can travel at a lower demand week in my own season.  For the majority of owners, this is not practical, and there are a lot of owners who didn't get enough points to reserve in their season at all. I do agree the skim doesn't hurt everyone equally, and that some can game the system, but overall I still think it's costly for most owners.

However, I think the real trap with points is that once you start using them, you kind of need to keep using them as you will either have some points to bank or you will have borrowed points.  If that happens, then you might actually end up using points for your home resort where it can be a big loss.


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## burg1121 (Jul 28, 2010)

Here's what I don't understand maybe Marriott should have had just 1 bucket and no skim. They could have based everyones point on their purchase price and a point would be a point would be point. But the trade value to the resorts would be based on current or last sales price. It could be a lot worse but I haven't joined yet.


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## jimf41 (Jul 28, 2010)

tombo said:


> At many resorts a platinum owner (for example) does not get enough points to book ANY platinum week. The skim results in owners not getting enough points to access ANY week in season at their home resort. So the 3000 point example using a number less than your lowest in season week is a "what if" in your situation, but it is reality for many using the points Marriott gives them if they deposit their week.



This is the case with my three MFC weeks. All on the negative side of skim. But I don't lose anything. I'll simply use them as weeks. This is what I don't understand about the skim controversy. It just doesn't seem to affect anyone. Yes it exists on paper but it would be a rare owner who ever lets it happen.

A little side note on MFC. They are still selling weeks there as the legal stuff hasn't been worked out yet.


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## GregT (Jul 28, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> This is the case with my three MFC weeks. All on the negative side of skim. But I don't lose anything. I'll simply use them as weeks. This is what I don't understand about the skim controversy. It just doesn't seem to affect anyone. Yes it exists on paper but it would be a rare owner who ever lets it happen.



This is something I find so interesting about the points system -- this was  a conclusion I reached on how to reconcile with the skim -- I just don't redeem the units for points.

Which then makes me wonder, how's Marriott going to get that rare inventory (like a 3BR MOC or a 3BR MFC?)  Is someone like me _really_ going to waitlist for that rare 3BR MFC to come up (and have given up their weeks)?

It is incredibly puzzling, and yet Marriott is too smart to not have considered that this would happen.  They appear to have taken a very long view that people like me will eventually sell, and they will either ROFR it or the next guy will be willing to redeem because they bought knowing all the sordid details.

Interesting stuff -- tough for us feeling the birthing pains.

Greg


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## dougp26364 (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> The reason other systems give you the number of points you need to exchange back into your own resort is because you need to use points to stay there.  It is all points based.



This is not a correct statement. Most of the points based systems out there are from converted weeks based systems. There are very few pure points systems. The only two I can think of are DVC and HGVC. Otherwise, all the systems I'm aware of are converted from weeks based system and, most of those continue to have weeks based owners. 

Marriott appears to be unique in that they give owners fewer points than it takes to reserve most weeks in the season they purchased. Can you name me one other points based system that does this? My bet is they're few and far between if not non-existant.


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## tombo (Jul 28, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> This is the case with my three MFC weeks. All on the negative side of skim. But I don't lose anything. I'll simply use them as weeks. This is what I don't understand about the skim controversy. It just doesn't seem to affect anyone. Yes it exists on paper but it would be a rare owner who ever lets it happen.
> 
> A little side note on MFC. They are still selling weeks there as the legal stuff hasn't been worked out yet.



It does affect you and all weeks owners. If your season is worth 4000 points for example, and if you actually received 4000 points if you deposited your week for points then you could join points and actually get the flexibility that comes with points. Because of the skim you can join points, but you don't get the full number of points your week is worth so not the full benefit and flexibility that points bring. 

Marriott rolled out a new points program, offered it to you, but then they cheat you out of points if you decide to join and actually use points. You lost the ability to join points and get what you paid for when you converted (you don't get as many points when you deposit your weeks as Marriott gets when they rent it to someone else). You lose the ability to trade for like valued weeks using points. You lose the ability to trade for your own resort a year from now using points. You lose the ability to trade for weeks valued higher than your week in points. You lose some of your voting rights. You lose a lot.


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## jimf41 (Jul 28, 2010)

DanCali said:


> My latest question was taking your argument to an extreme. You say you book October weeks for 4000 points. So the question should be (forget you got 4225 points) would you have been happy with 4005 points? Even if the average of the season is 4540?
> 
> I'm sure you see my point that it's not ok if you just can reserve the weeks you vacation and have points left over. The fact that you are getting less than the average of your week means you are shortchanged on "trading power". If you had 4540 points you could do more. And 4540 points is what you should get based on what Marriott values your week.
> 
> I believe you understand how I view skim and that, based on my definition of skim, I'm right. I still disagree with how you view skim, and am not offended if you still disagree with my definition. But I think we both agree that you'd be better off with 4540 points that with 4005 or 4225 points



Dan,

I don't see the question of what number of points would make me happy as relevant to the skim discussion. Whatever amount that would make me happy the fact is I wound up with 4225. I will use those in the best way I can to make the system work for me. I can not envision that I would enter into a situation where I lost points on the transaction. That's true whether they give me 10 points or 10,000 points.

Im not going to convince you that skim won't affect you. You are not going to convince me that I can't skim Marriott. That wasn't the point of my first post. The point is that contrary to the overwhelming belief on TUG that Marriott is going to reap millions of points by skimming the legacy owners, I just don't see it happening in the real world. At least not for TUG members anyway. Every TUGGER who has posted about skim knows how to avoid it. They might not all be able to turn it around to their advantage but they won't lose on it.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 28, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> This is the case with my three MFC weeks. All on the negative side of skim. But I don't lose anything. I'll simply use them as weeks. This is what I don't understand about the skim controversy. It just doesn't seem to affect anyone. Yes it exists on paper but it would be a rare owner who ever lets it happen.
> 
> A little side note on MFC. They are still selling weeks there as the legal stuff hasn't been worked out yet.



So long as you don't give Marriott your weeks for points, the skim doesn't exist. The one nice thing about the DC is you DON'T have to exchange your weks for points. You may continue to exchange weeks for weeks, just like you always have, for one flat fee. The problem is, right now there's no online live access to do your own exchanges. Right now, you have to call a VOA and have them handle matters for you. I'm not buying into that as I prefer to do things online, myself, when my time dictates. Now when it's convenient for Marriott and their VOA's.


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## jimf41 (Jul 28, 2010)

tombo said:


> It does affect you and all weeks owners.
> 
> I'll go with this as long as you put the words "I believe" in the front of the sentence. This is your opinion which I disagree with and have painstakingly documented in three different resorts in my initial post.
> 
> ...



Don't get me started about the voting habits and rights of US citizens. Besides this a Skim thread not a voting thread.


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## tombo (Jul 28, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> Don't get me started about the voting habits and rights of US citizens. Besides this a Skim thread not a voting thread.



If your season is worth 4000 points for example, and if you actually received 4000 points if you deposited your week for points then you could join points and actually get the flexibility that comes with points. Because of the skim you can join points, but you don't get the full number of points your week is worth so not the full benefit and flexibility that points bring. 



jimf41 said:


> What number are you putting on a Silver 3bdrm at MPB as far as it's worth?. It gets 4225, it costs 2000, 4000 or 5900 depending on which week you pick. The season average is 4540. Whichever number you pick I can make a strong argument that it's unfair to someone else in the season. Marriott nullified this "what's it worth" argument by giving everyone the ability to just reserve a week as a week. The way I look at this I either win or I come out even. I don't ever lose..



If you can trade for ANY silver season 3 bed room unit using your week, you should have the ability to do the same using points. You bought access to any 3 bed room silver week, not just some of them. Once your silver 3 ved unit is converted to points you should get the same number of points as it takes to reserve any in season week.If Marriott wants to assign all silver 3 bed units 4540 points, then you should get 4540 points when you depsoit your week for points.  That would be fair because all silver 3 bed owners would get the same number of points as it takes to reserve any 3 bed silver unit, just as they all can reserve any 3 bed silver unit now based on availability. As it stands NO silver week owner receives the 5900 points for some of the silver weeks, only marriott does. 


Marriott rolled out a new points program, offered it to you, but then they cheat you out of points if you decide to join and actually use points. You lost the ability to join points and get what you paid for when you converted (you don't get as many points when you deposit your weeks as Marriott gets when they rent it to someone else). 



jimf41 said:


> I disagree. First of all they didn't cheat me. I explained this in my initial post. The way I'm using the system I will make points on my Silver MPB weeks. As far as me not getting what Marriott gets when they rent the week or give it to someone on points that's old news. Marriott has been doing that since the beginning. I don't see any change here..



You paid for your week when you bought it, and you pay with annual MF's. You purchased the right to ANY silver 3 bed unit at your resort. For Marriott to place any silver weeks out of reach using points means that you lost access. If you have access to weeks 18 through 34 now using weeks, and through points you only get enough points to reserve weeks 18-24 and 28 to 34, you have lost  access to previously available weeks when you deposit for points. If you can never get 5900 points when you deposit, you never have access to all prime in season weeks using points.

You lose the ability to trade for like valued weeks using points.



jimf41 said:


> Not true. Read my initial post about trading a Plat MPB for a PLat MFC..



In several resorts the high in season weeks are 3000 points, the low is 2500 points, the average is 2750 points, and owners get 2400 points if they deposit for points. If you don't get enough points to equal the average number of points to reserve an in season week at your home resort (or in many cases enough points to reserve any in season week) you can't trade for like resorts. If the average week at my resort is 2750 Marriott rates my week as a 2750 point week. If I only get 2400 points I can't reserve a 2750 point like resort somewhere else. Simple. In addition at my resort I can reserve a 3000 point prime in season week. I CAN'T  EVER get an equivalent 3000 point week at another resort even though I have the right to get a 3000 point week at home.

You lose the ability to trade for your own resort a year from now using points. 



jimf41 said:


> Not sure what you mean here. Could you explain further?.



If you need 2- 3 bed units next year in a prime silver week and you deposit your week this year for points to use with your home week next year so that you can have 2-3bed units for family in the same year, you can't get 2 prime weeks because Marriiott will not give you  the 5900 points you need.



jimf41 said:


> You lose the ability to trade for weeks valued higher than your week in points.
> 
> Again see the MPB-MFC example in the initial post..



I can reserve the best in season week, deposit it in II and have good trading power to get other resorts. I can often get better resorts than my own using II. Once i give my week to Marriott for points I NEVER get the number of points a prime in season week gets (even though I have the right to reserve one of those weeks), and neither does any other owner. Marriott never gives someone the top points even though they charge others top points to stay there. The only people who can get prime weeks using points are people who borrow from the future or points owners who trade down. You can never trade like for like prime weeks, much less trade up.


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## DanCali (Jul 28, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> Im not going to convince you that skim won't affect you. You are not going to convince me that I can't skim Marriott. That wasn't the point of my first post. The point is that contrary to the overwhelming belief on TUG that Marriott is going to reap millions of points by skimming the legacy owners, I just don't see it happening in the real world. At least not for TUG members anyway. Every TUGGER who has posted about skim knows how to avoid it. They might not all be able to turn it around to their advantage but they won't lose on it.



Jim according to your definition, you may be skimming Marriott.

According to how most here view skim, you get skimmed the moment you convert to points. You cannot avoid it once you elect for points. It affects 100% of owners who convert to points.

But again, if we can't agree on definitions, we can't really have a fruitful discussion...

So instead of mentioning "skim" I'll address the issue you raised as to how Marriott will make it's millions by asking a few simple questions. And I won't mention skim even once...:

Do you agree that, to the best of our knowledge 5 weeks after the program launched) all owners who convert to points get less points (say around 9%-10% on average) than the average points in their season?

Now assume for a second that enrolled owners that convert to points trade only among themselves - trust owners just reserve trust inventory and no trust points are deposited. This doesn't change the argument below, but makes it easier to grasp the conclusion. So some people, like you, will vacation 7 days at OP and have a few poins left over for a weekend somewhere, some will blow all their points for 4 days in a Hawaii studio, etc.

Do you agree that, if Marriott gives each owner who converts to points less than the average points in their season and even if all owners use all their points (no points go unused,) there will be lots of inventory from weeks that converted left over systemwide? This is in fact a mathematical certainty. I cannot tell you how many weeks will be left over, since they could be Hawaii weeks or Branson weeks or partial weeks everywhere, but in terms of points the leftover inventory from converted weeks will be worth about 9%-10% of the points that were awarded to the owners who converted.

Assuming Marriott has the option to rent unused inventory, does this answer your concern how Marriott will make its millions or why they did what they did?


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## jimf41 (Jul 29, 2010)

Dan & Tombo,

I've done my best to explain my position and my belief that skim is really not a big consideration. So, I will agree to concede the argument. To agree that every point you made is right and every point I made is wrong.

On one condition.

Find 10 owners on TUG that are willing to say that in order to reserve the week that they want, any week at any resort that they own, that they will do it with points when the points that Marriott wants for that week are greater than the number of points that Marriott gave them to convert.

If you find these ten folks then skim is alive and well. If not, would you at least consider that maybe it's not such a big deal after-all?

It's midnight here on the East coast. I'll catch you guys in the morning with a fresh cup of coffee.


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## DanCali (Jul 29, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> Find 10 owners on TUG that are willing to say that in order to reserve the week that they want, any week at any resort that they own, that they will do it with points when the points that Marriott wants for that week are greater than the number of points that Marriott gave them to convert.



This doesn't make sense because there is no "home resort" once converted to points. You need to liberate yourself of that concept. Once you have points you use them however you want at any resort you want in any season you want. 

You are not comparing apples to apples:

Week reservation = a particular resort in a particular season

Points reservation = any resort any season limited by the number of points you got. 

Your 4225 points might be good for 2.5 Platinum weeks in Branson and they happen to be good for 8 days at some off weeks at Ocean Pointe. In fact, I bet you can even stay 7 days in the Gold Season and have some points left over. But the fact that OP was your home resort is irrelevant once you have those points because you gave up that option... and it doesn't change the fact that you should have gotten more points when you actually converted your week.

I've tried to explain this to you in over 10 different ways and have been unsuccessful  . I'm sure Marriott wishes more people took your point of view...

P.S. You didn't answer any of my questions from the previous post. I did keep the word "skim" out of them so maybe we'll finally agree on something


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## GeNioS (Jul 29, 2010)

pipet said:


> In all honesty, because of how Marriott sold TS in the past, the most pleasant point system would to be to give people what they were sold and follow a model more like HGVC.  HGVC has upped the points a bit at the newest resorts, but people do have enough points for the resorts that were in the system when they bought. .


This is exactly how I feel...I bought a small Wyndham last year and thought it was such a funny system, what with points and all...but you're exactly right...it is a great system (I'm assuming similar to HGVC).  The points chart at the resorts aren't going to change.  It might take more points to get into a unit at a newer resort (which makes sense because they are costing more to build), but the points I bought are always going to be able to get me what was available at the time I bought them.

It has always disturbed me that the rewards points keep getting devalued.  I mean, why would a hotel that was one category suddenly become another category higher.  I can understand that a newly built hotel with higher building costs could definitely be consider a higher category, but why would an existing hotel suddenly in one day just magically be a higher category.  Inflation?  Didn't Marriott sell me on the fact that I was paying for tomorrow's vacations in today's dollars?

And didn't Marriott tell me that "I'm going to be buying an appreciating asset that I'll be able to leave to my heirs" salespitch.  I used to think that Marriott, although being dead wrong, really meant it (stupid me).  But the skim to me, combined with the devaluation of rewards points, has convinced me they are trying (intentionally) to do the exact opposite.  Marriott is trying to come up with ways to make me continually pay them more and more money and, if I don't, by the time I would ever pass these on there will be next to nothing left...oh yeah and they will have resold the part that isn't mine anymore to someone else (who will be writing this same post someday).

If you are one of those people who sees the value in this points program, let alone are buying additional points in the new system, congratulations.  I always hope your vacations are wonderful and add some joy to your lives.  But be forewarned.  No matter how good you think the system is today, Marriott has shown time and time again that they are willing to devalue that which you purchased in the past.  Why would you believe they wouldn't do that someday to the points you are buying today?

I assure you that in five to ten years from now Marriott will approach each and every one of you with another new and exciting, more flexible, program.  And you will have to buy just a few more points to really make it work.


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## pipet (Jul 29, 2010)

*Why skim matters*

Some people are annoyed that Marriott rolled out this exciting new program only to find out it was a ripoff for their situation.  Then, they move on.  No one has to enroll, or even if they do, no one has to convert to points. 

I agree! It's true! We can all choose not to elect to convert our weeks to points, and thus we won't eat skim.

So, skim doesn't matter...

Except, we just don't know yet how much it matters.  Owners are facing a lot of uncertainty, and not very many people are comfortable with that, especially when it's something that concerns a long-term financial commitment.  Is all the chaos justified?  I'd say definitely not all of it, but at the same time there are enough "real" problems to keep people very concerned and edgy.  

How will future trading work out with II?  This a huge and IMO legitimate concern.  Clearly, _points are the way of the future_, but at the same time, the majority of weeks in the system belong to weeks owners.  Salespeople, who obviously will say anything to make a sale, are inciting fears that II will dry up.  Will II dry up?  Will Marriott play heavy-handed with the II inventory?  _Are we really going to be gimped in our ability to make trades if we don't use the new point currency?_  Are point requests going to be filled before weeks requests?  We probably won't know the answer to this for a long while, but most TS owners hope to be happy and healthy and traveling for more than the next year or two, _so the long term matters._ 

Resale owners in particular need to consult their II crystal ball to decide by 12/31/10 what the future holds for them in 2020.  That's kinda stinky.    Developer owners risk facing a much larger buy-in cost.  Of course, the opposite could be the case and there might be other buy-in periods or incentives, but again, there is the uncertainty.

Will Marriott choose the week that enrolled owners deposit in II, ala Starwood?  The fact that another large TS system does this makes the possibility seem real.  *This would be a very big deal for people who enroll but prefer not to play in points.*  Can Marriott do this to unenrolled weeks?  I think there would be challenges to this as I believe there were in the Starwood system, but I am not an expert.

Will booking at home resorts become more difficult?  The rare fixed weeks are safe, but over time we all know Marriott became very generous in its seasons.  Newport Coast has the awful plat season that is over half the year, and many HI owners have 1-50+.  Even where there are somewhat more defined seasons, Marriott included weeks in the plat category that should have been classified as shoulder to increase profit.  Marriott has said it will fairly divvy the weeks availability based on percent owners converting to points vs weeks owners.  At this point I still believe they will do this, but Marriott has a lot of trust issues right now, and not everyone is convinced.  Then there is the worry that Marriott can change the policy in the future.

Will we lose home resort advantage when it comes to room assignments?  Will non-enrollees be treated as second class customers?  Hopefully not, but again, most agree that points are the future, so changes could even come up in this area.

Even if you don't ever personally eat the skim by converting to points, the system is changing.  Points are the new currency.  To participate in the future currency, the anti-skim people will pay a cost that they consider unacceptable.  I've seen several comments indicating that some are joining the system as "insurance."  What will happen to those that don't buy the insurance?  Maybe, it will turn out to be a 2.0 quake that no one can even  feel...  but what if it turns out to be a big one?


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## tombo (Jul 29, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> Dan & Tombo,
> 
> I've done my best to explain my position and my belief that skim is really not a big consideration. So, I will agree to concede the argument. To agree that every point you made is right and every point I made is wrong.
> 
> ...



Ridiculous argument. The points program wasn't designed to reserve home resorts (unless you do it for an additional week in a same year), you use points to exchange your home resort for other resorts. Since the points you receive for depositing your week is less than the average number of points required to trade into your season, the week you deposited was awarded less value than it was worth (everyone should receive the average minimum). You were skimmed, ripped off, charged a fee, or any other way you feel like describing it. Virtually every owner who deposits for points to exchange using points gets skimmed and has less points in their account than they should have been given for the week they deposited.

So I will give you 10 owners who were skimmed (received less points for their week deposited than marriott charges on average to stay in it) and still used points to exchange from their posts here on TUG: 1.Kelly and sean, 2 Suedonj, 3. pfrank4217, 4. ciscogizmo1, 5.sibeeriavol, 6.dolphin, 7.larue, 8.boca boy ,9. jimh, 10 Brian c, 11. puckmanfl, 12. y-ask, 13. brianc936, 14. kedler, 15. sparty, 16. carichard, 17.flyerbobcat, 18. dannybaker, 19. m61376, 20.jeffrey, 21 delicate arch, 22.hotcoffe, 23.dvc john, 24. cruz-in, 25. beverly........I quit at 25. Is that enough? That is just some of the people here on TUG who deposited their weeks for points and almost all (if not all) were skimmed and given less points for their deposit(s) than the average week was worth according to Marriott's charts. 

Imagine how many people who don't know about TUG or the skim there are Marriott wide depositing their weeks for points and getting skimmed. It will  be millions of points ending up to be Marriott's each year that should have gone to owners. 

Your point that if no one deposits weeks for points then there is no skim is true, however most people who convert to points will want to use points to exchange. Every time one of them deposits their week, they lose points value from what they deposited, and Marriott gets those points. The average skim is 7% to 13% (it varies by resort) from what owners here showed on another thread. At your resort Ocean Pointe the average points needed for a 3 bed silver season is 4540, you only get 4225 points if you deposit losing 315 points of what you deposited each and every time you decide to use points. So your choices are to never use points to prevent being skimmed 315 points (why convert to points if you are never going to use them?), or deposit anyway to exchange using points and get skimmed. No matter what you end up trading for you should have had 315 more points in your account from your deposit than Marriott will give you.

Whether the skim is 7% or 15%, Marriott keeps all the points they skim and all unused/expired points (why should paid for points have an expiration date?). It is wrong and something every owner should be warned about.

P.S. You said put any point value on a week and you would show where someone is getting hurt. I said at your resort the average 3 bed silver week is worth 4540 points. All silver  3 bed owners have the option to reserve any silver week 3 bed week ath their home resort, so Marriott should charge 4540 points to reserve ANY silver week first come first served (give home resort an early reservation window), and Marriott should give EVERY silver week 3 bed owner 4540 points for depsoiting their week. Now that is fair and no one would be hurt. If Marriott had set up points that way (like most other points systems are) I would have gladly joined because that is fair to all.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Jim according to your definition, you may be skimming Marriott.
> 
> According to how most here view skim, you get skimmed the moment you convert to points. You cannot avoid it once you elect for points. It affects 100% of owners who convert to points.



This is really just symantics. 

Overall, Marriott has a built in skim when owners convert to points. Much like a Vegas casino, for Marriott the truth lies in the law of large numers. A few will get them but, in the long run, Marriott is going to come out with an average profit in points. 

On the other hand, those with a little knowledge will realize that there can be advantages with points. In the case of MPB, there are at least four weeks where the legacy week owner can "skim" Marriott. If you're willing to travel in September and, if you can reserve a week in September (just because it's listed doesn't mean it's available), then you come out ahead.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 29, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> Dan & Tombo,
> 
> I've done my best to explain my position and my belief that skim is really not a big consideration. So, I will agree to concede the argument. To agree that every point you made is right and every point I made is wrong.
> 
> ...



For the owner who converts to points it might not be that big of a deal. That
's Marrriott's hope. Just because it might not be a big deal to the owner, the skim still exists. If Marriott gives out 7% fewer points than it takes owners to reserve all weeks, then Marriott has recieved 7% more in points and, as a result, will have ~7% more unused nights that it can rent. Since there seems to be no restrictions on what Marriott makes available and what it does not make available to owners, then Marriott can pick and choose what nights it wants to rent and at what resorts it wants to rent them, so long as there have been owners at those resorts who have converted to points.

Even when you don't convert you're week, the skim can still affect you in the same way owners converting to MR points can affect you. That being that Marriott now has inventory to rent. I don't see it as a major difference and I don't believe it will affect owners any more than when owners convert to MR points. Marriott makes a profit when you convert to MR points and, they'll be making a profit off legacy week owners (overall at least) who convert to DC points.


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## pipet (Jul 29, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> I’m not trying to convert anyone I’m just pointing out that the new system can be manipulated to our benefit.



Adding to what Doug said...

I do agree that you can play the system.  In the manipulation scenario, because you pick a lower demand week,_ you are helping Marriott by releasing a week to the points pool. _ I don't think anyone here will argue that Marriott is going to put the least expensive week from your season in the point pool - but rather they are going to go for the primo weeks!  For everyone who converts, even if they don't skim you, they can be almost guaranteed to skim someone else who comes in and reserves the higher demand week, so while you might get a win, it's a big WIN for Marriott.  Despite skim, there will be some owners who will convert out of curiosity, to get into Trust properties, to try to have a better chance at making trades, etc, so these trades will happen.

In the manipulation system, you don't have an indefinite amount of time to use up those extra 100 or whatever points.  For some, using up those 100 pts before they expire may not be an issue, but I think once you end up with those extra points, it will be pretty easy to tap into your week to do more with the points and thus get you into the perpetual points game (thus paying skim).

Even if you are able to make this system work for you personally, I am not happy about Marriott creating a new way to milk me (with the subtext of if I don't play along I am going to miss out in the future).  This is more than simply an internal exchange system with reasonable fees.  As many have noted, they now will be able to control inventory much better.  While they could always rent units before when they were converted to MRPs, the new system gives them a much bigger inventory grab than they were getting previously.  While people might not have complained that much about MRP conversions in the past, I think DC points + MRPs will have a bigger impact.


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## jimf41 (Jul 29, 2010)

pipet said:


> Adding to what Doug said...
> 
> I do agree that you can play the system.  In the manipulation scenario, because you pick a lower demand week,_ you are helping Marriott by releasing a week to the points pool. _ I don't think anyone here will argue that Marriott is going to put the least expensive week from your season in the point pool - but rather they are going to go for the primo weeks!



If I use points to reserve a week I'm not releasing anything to Marriott's points pool. I'm simply reserving it with points and putting 225 points in the bank rather than reserving it as a week and putting 0 points in the bank. The weeks I reserve at MPB are 42 and 43. Of the 20 week Silver season there are only 5 weeks with a higher TDI. Those weeks are equal to or greater than any week in Gold season according to the TDI.

As for my Platinum MPB week, I plan on converting it to points and reserving the same Platinum week in February at MFC with a profit of 200 points. There is nothing "lower season" about either of these weeks.

A few posts back you made the comment that once you start down this conversion road you are likely to be stuck doing it forever or else let some points expire. This is a real concern and it will depend on availability. I don't think anyone can predict what that will be two or three years down the road.


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## pipet (Jul 29, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> If I use points to reserve a week I'm not releasing anything to Marriott's points pool. I'm simply reserving it with points and putting 225 points in the bank rather than reserving it as a week and putting 0 points in the bank. The weeks I reserve at MPB are 42 and 43. Of the 20 week Silver season there are only 5 weeks with a higher TDI. Those weeks are equal to or greater than any week in Gold season according to the TDI.



True, I wasn't thinking!  And if you are able to get your good weeks that you really want, you can do well with the system.  I think Marriott has calculated that enough people will lose out that the few who can do well aren't going to dip into the profit.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 29, 2010)

The problem is that Marriott re-seasoned all of their resorts. You can't do that and make everyone happy. It is impossible to do that and make it so an owner can exchange in to any week in their season. If you give them enough points to get in to any week in their season, you now have an imbalance of points vs inventory. If you give them an average, there will be weeks they can't get in to.

In my opinion, Marriott should have left the season along. Assigning points to each current season, giving owners the points needed for those seasons. This would have been a simple overlay system.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 2, 2010)

We really shouldn't call it "skim" any more. It should be called the "spread". It sounds more positive


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## dougp26364 (Aug 2, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> We really shouldn't call it "skim" any more. It should be called the "spread". It sounds more positive



Considering that Marriott's jacking me for 1,000 points on the week I normally reserve, I think the term skim, with it's negative contotation, is still appropriate. 

On average all legacy week owner that convert their weeks to points appear to lose 7% value. That's not a spread when you're on the losing end and, all but the few owners who can actually reserve weeks and have points left over will be on the negative end of this stick.

When the mafia took it's cut off the top in Vegas, is was called a skim. Marriott's taking it's cut off the top. IMHO, that's a skim.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 2, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Considering that Marriott's jacking me for 1,000 points on the week I normally reserve, I think the term skim, with it's negative contotation, is still appropriate.
> 
> On average all legacy week owner that convert their weeks to points appear to lose 7% value. That's not a spread when you're on the losing end and, all but the few owners who can actually reserve weeks and have points left over will be on the negative end of this stick.



Our skim is Marriott's spread.


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## jimf41 (Aug 2, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Considering that Marriott's jacking me for 1,000 points on the week I normally reserve, I think the term skim, with it's negative contotation, is still appropriate.
> 
> On average all legacy week owner that convert their weeks to points appear to lose 7% value. That's not a spread when you're on the losing end and, all but the few owners who can actually reserve weeks and have points left over will be on the negative end of this stick.
> 
> When the mafia took it's cut off the top in Vegas, is was called a skim. Sure there were some winners in Vegas but, overall, Vegas gamblers were losers. Marriott has that guarenteed profit when legacy week owners convert to points. This is the basic definition of skim IMHO. Marriott is guarenteed to win while owners who convert are guarenteed to lose on average.



Doug,

Marriott is not jacking you for anything. Nor are you going to lose 7%. You will reserve your week as usual. When you are down there in your 5900 point November week that you reserved as a week, you can have bragging rights at the High Tides bar by saying you only paid $1456 to get your week while the "trust" owner next to you paid $2360 in MF to get the same unit.

Legacy weeks rock!!


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## dougp26364 (Aug 2, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> Doug,
> 
> Marriott is not jacking you for anything. Nor are you going to lose 7%. You will reserve your week as usual. When you are down there in your 5900 point November week that you reserved as a week, you can have bragging rights at the High Tides bar by saying you only paid $1456 to get your week while the "trust" owner next to you paid $2360 in MF to get the same unit.
> 
> Legacy weeks rock!!



OK, so let's put it this way. If I want to swim in the new pool with the cool kids, I have to pay up. AKA the skim. 

Marriott didn't take anything away from legacy week owners. They only imposed a heavy price on them if they want the shiny new object. Sure we can play but, in order to play, we have to pay. Thanks Marriott for tossing those owners that built your brand a bone.

Sorry, but after knowning how other points based systems treat their owners, I'm not in the mood for cutting Marriott any slack. I love the idea I paid developer pricing, only to have to pay a joiner fee, membership fee AND be skimmed if I want the "new" product.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 2, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Considering that Marriott's jacking me for 1,000 points on the week I normally reserve, I think the term skim, with it's negative contotation, is still appropriate.



My post was posted with a level of sarcasm.


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## dougp26364 (Aug 2, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> My post was posted with a level of sarcasm.



So tough to read sarcasm on the internet.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 2, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> So tough to read sarcasm on the internet.



I agree, that was the reason for the   though.


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