# [June Thread] It's Hard to be Green!



## JLB (Jun 7, 2008)

No, not something Kermit said!   

I mean, it's hard for a person to do something about energy and resource conservation. . . you know, the Green Movement . . . you've heard of it? 

I don't mean that it is hard to change your habits, cuz it's not.  Instead of putting all your waste in a plastic bag to go to the landfill, you just sort it . . . cardboard, tin cans, aluminum, etc., and take it to Recycle.

What I mean is having to deal with the non-Green people.   

Like at work, three of us have started recycling on our own, sorting the trash and taking the aluminum home every day.  Actually, it's saving money for (the company) because it has cut down on the amount of trash, trash bags, etc.  We still get all our work done so it's not costing (the company) any more for our efforts.

One, older, _set-in-his ways_ guy just laughs at us, makes fun of us and insults us, with comments like, "if you need a coupla bucks, I can help you guys out."  He makes a point of making fun of us at least once a day.  

He's totally clueless to what's going on in the world.

So, the Green Movement has to expend their energy doing the things it takes to be Green, plus the extra energy to deal with the detractors, carrying their load, too, and having to deal with them.

Anyone else run into this?

PS:  Yesterday, after insulting me early, he tossed his soda can in the can barrel later.


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## Chrisky (Jun 7, 2008)

Keep up the good work. Ignore the old guy. He'll change eventually, but in the mean time your efforts will be appreciated.  Even here where we live, we have a great city recycling program but you can tell the people who don't really bother. But I just look at it in a positive way and see all the people who are trying to do something.


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## silvib (Jun 7, 2008)

I think we are the only household in our street to recycle anything.  Our community has 2 large County-supplied containers, 1 with separate sections for plastic bottles, aluminium & cardboard and the other for newspapers, magazines & unwanted junk mail & office junk mail.  As it is approx. 5 miles round trip (through a conservation section between one side of the community and the other) I take the recycling by car only when I'm over that way, or I use the golf cart.  We also have containers for yard trash although the County does come around twice a month to pick up from the kerb.  I have very close (in proximity only) neighbors who never recycle & use the nearest building contractor dumpster (they're still building) for their yard trash!  The very same people do not adhere to the watering restrictions either, so definitely not Green at all!


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## moonstone (Jun 7, 2008)

We are often dissapointed to find timeshare resorts not recycling. We sort our 'recyclable trash' in our unit into grocery store bags (newspaper & boxboard, glass, plastic & aluminum) and when we take it to the proper area for disposal there are no containers for them, just 1 large dumpster. Recycling is very big up here with new 'compost green bins' for kitchen waste (potato peelings, egg shells...) being used by many municipalities for those that dont or cant compost in their yard. The special bags are picked up with the regular recycling stuff on trash day. We have to take care of our planet so there is something left for our children and grandchildren to enjoy.
~Diane


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## Icc5 (Jun 7, 2008)

*When traveling*

What has amazed us in the past was the resorts that did the least to recycle were usually either mountain resorts or near lakes.  I would have thought they would have been first.
We have recycled for years because our kids started learning about this in grammar school so for us it started 19 years ago.
The best resort we found for this was Pacific Shores, Canada.
The developer was into landscaping and even had small composting bins outside each 2 units for food items (greens, grinds, etc).  We thought this was a fantastic idea and have never seen it anywhere else.
Nowadays I'm more into watching then my kids though it is because they just get plain lazy at times.
I certainly admire anyone that I see making the extra effort.
Bart


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## Keitht (Jun 7, 2008)

The 'old guy' is probably sick of people shoving the 'green agenda' down his throat - just like I am.  I'm not against recycling, I'm against people who think they know what I should do better than I do. 

A variation on the theme is what are known as "Chuggers" in the UK - Charity Muggers!  They accost you in the street with their clipboard and superior smile, trying to convince you to sign up to support whatever charity with regular payment from your bank account.  It's the line "It's only x per month.  I'm sure you can spare that".  Just who the **** do they think they are to (a) tell me what I can afford (b) tell me what to spend my money on?
My usual response is to tell them that I will decide which charities to support and on what basis I will support them.  Also that whoever I do support I will support directly; I'm not going to pay their wages!

Rant over.


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## JLB (Jun 7, 2008)

Whoa there, big boy!  

No one is asking him to do anything, not asking him to help out or change his habits in any way and no one is ramming any policy down his throat.  He can throw his cans anywhere he wants.  Later on, after he's left for the day so as to not raise the issue, one of us puts them in the recycle bin.   

He is not being forced to hug a tree.   

He is just going out of his way to make a point about it, so he can make fun of those trying to do good.  Exactly what you are saying, what you are upset about, he enjoys telling us he knows what's best for us to do better than we do, get it?  

As others have said, we do our best to just ignore him, but he keeps it up.

Still side with him?



Keitht said:


> The 'old guy' is probably sick of people shoving the 'green agenda' down his throat - just like I am.  I'm not against recycling, I'm against people who think they know what I should do better than I do.


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## JLB (Jun 7, 2008)

BTW, Sir, to compare me with someone who accosts people on the street and harasses them, shaking them down for money, just because I toss aluminum cans in a recycle bin, is a bit extreme, don't you think?  

I can tell by that type of reply that folks really have tripped your trigger!!!  

So sorry for you, that your personal experiences are so disturbing.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 7, 2008)

I'm with Keith on this. While I done things to be more environmentaly friendly, such as having all CSF lights in my house, replacing all outdoor Christmas lights with LED lights, using the cloth resuable bags at the grocery store et..... I do NOT like people shoving things down my throat. 

At work it gets busy and sometime's I will forget and toss a can in the regular trash can. I catch flack for it from a couple of co-workers. All that makes me want to do is stick the can somewhere else and I'm not talking about the recycle bin. 

I believe Keith was only saying that, while he's not against recycling, he's against groups that attempt to force their will upon others. Perhaps a better example would be the forcing of restrictive taxes on airline departures for some European airports. I read a thread this week where some yahoo is attempting to get a 100 Euro depature tax placed on all departures in an attempt to cut down the number of people flying, thus cutting down the number of departures and cutting back the amount of greenhouse gas produced by airlines (because no one can afford to fly thanks to the taxes).

No stuff like that tends to make my blood boil. Especially since I believe that global warming has been and is a natural cycle of the Earth. Just like global cooling, which will be a much worse scenario than many will ever imagine. (research the year without a summer or the year 1800 and froze to death).


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## JLB (Jun 7, 2008)

Again, and in fear of coming down with _acute repititous_, and have to go visit Doug in the ER  , no one is asking/suggesting/ demanding/forcing anyone to do anything.  If you understand that, could you please shake your head? 

Wow, just one head shaking???!!!  

It is "Old Guy" co-worker who is going out of his way to make fun of and insult people who are not bothering him in any way.

Just curious, did I explain this wrong in the OP, or in my re-explanation of the OP?  Am I explaining it properly now, in my re-explanation of the re-explanation of the OP?

Or, are folks just looking for a bandwagon, a cause _du jour_, today?

I don't mean to throw a monkey wrench into this by adding information that likely will be inadvertently, or advertently , misinterpreted, but for some time, some of what I will call our _customers_ have found it strange, almost offensive, that we were previously making no attempt at all to conserve, recycle, and be Green.  They were offended by that.

This is not a _company-wide_, just our little _department_.  The rest of the _company_ is still gathering up *all *of their trash in plastic bags and it is going to the landfill.

Next, we go through a bajillion foam cups a day, some that don't get used at all (as people pull foam cups out of the dispenser, a second one often comes out, too, and falls to the floor, then goes into the trash barrel, unused), and all of which go to the landfill in plastic bags.  They cost the _company_ money, and there are alternatives.


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## Patri (Jun 7, 2008)

AT work they have a suggestion box. Several times I put in to place recycle bins in the break room, as employees pitch a ton of aluminum and plastic, and the corporation as a whole was taking measures to conserve and recycle.
Finally our place did. I only hope the materials are actually brought to a recycling center and not put in the trash when we are gone.
In another arena, I want to conserve on electricity and bought quite a few of the EXPENSIVE low energy light bulbs that should last for years. Three burned out in a couple months. Not worth it if that is going to be the norm.


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## Kona Lovers (Jun 7, 2008)

JLB said:


> Next, we go through a bajillion foam cups a day, some that don't get used at all, and all of which go to the landfill in plastic bags.  They cost the _company_ money, and there are alternatives.



Where I worked the past 7 years we were at least pretty good about bringing our own coffee mugs, or using one donated to the cause, and having no foam waste of this sort.  There's also a big barrel by the copy machine for paper recycling, and a bin for aluminum cans from the soda machine.

Oddly, I was transferred to a new facility that although provided dishware in the eating area, only had barrels for all trash which usually consisted of plastic cups for "goodie day Fridays", and foam containers from the cafeteria.  Sort of a mixed effort on the company's part.

Marty


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## JLB (Jun 7, 2008)

Not that I am a loyal Oprah follower, but I happened to catch the show where they Greened up Harpo.

Employees agreed to bring their own real coffee cups and mugs, having foam ones just for the guests.  The employees like having their own real ones better.

Not accounting for trash savings, it cut $41000 annually in their foam cup expense.  So environmental benefits aside, companies are discovering that being Green is good for the bottom line.

Just wondering, for those who have somewhat taken offense by this thread, when you see an aluminum can bin next to a regular trash bin, but no one is forcing you or telling you you have to use the aluminum can bin, does its mere presence set you off like my situation seems to have?



Kona Lovers said:


> Where I worked the past 7 years we were at least pretty good about bringing our own coffee mugs, or using one donated to the cause, and having no foam waste of this sort.  There's also a big barrel by the copy machine for paper recycling, and a bin for aluminum cans from the soda machine.


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## Fern Modena (Jun 7, 2008)

Sometimes "being green" just creates other problems...

An example:  A friend of mine is thinking of putting in a tankless water heater, thus saving on her gas bill.  Sounds good, right?  But if her shower isn't near her water heater, doesn't she waste water waiting for it to heat up?  You can recover it, but how much recovered water can you use (since we already have drippers for our desert landscaping)?  We have a water shortage here, so saving on her gas only makes the water situation worse.

That's not to say we don't do many things:

We recycle paper, newsprint, glass, aluminum and plastics
We use compact fluorescent lighting
I use cloth bags at the supermarket, drugstore, etc (I carry two folded up ones in my purse all the time
We have only desert landscaping with drippers, not sprinklers
We use organic cleaners for our counter tops, etc
I use the least amount of laundry detergent that will do the job
We like to read magazines, but we pass them on to friends when we are done with them.  Always.  Books go to a local lending library.
I know there are many other things we do, but those are off the top of my head.

Like Keith, I hate to be accosted by people to donate to _their_ favorite charity d'jour.  The grocery stores are good at this.  They ring up your groceries and then ask if you'd like to make a donation to this or that charity.  I smile and tell them I donate to my own favorites.  I think it is invasive and shouldn't be done.  Its definitely irritating.

Fern


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## pjrose (Jun 7, 2008)

JLB said:


> Just curious, did I explain this wrong in the OP, or in my re-explanation of the OP?  Am I explaining it properly now, in my re-explanation of the re-explanation of the OP?



I think you have been completely clear each time.  You were expressing annoyance at the _set-in-his-ways_ guy's persistent comments.  I would be too, and would maybe try to come up with some kind of joke (don't know what).  Or just say "Yup, I know your opinion, and you know mine, so guess we'll just have to agree to disagree."

I've run into similar situations bunches of times - once a man we know, a generation or so older - would always call me sweetie, toots, honey-bunch, and so forth.  I know he didn't mean anything other than friendliness, but it did get to me....finally one day I put my arm around his waist and called him Toots.  Funny thing, he never did it again.  

My Karate instructor often makes comments to the class that grate on me - limp-wrist anti-gay types of things - I just roll my eyes at him; he's probably not going to stop his comments, and I'm not going to stop expressing my dismay at them.

Anyway, back to the question I'm answering - It was completely clear to me that you were discussing Mr. Needs-to-make-a-comment's constant comments and not taking on the green agenda.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 8, 2008)

Patri said:


> ..........In another arena, I want to conserve on electricity and bought quite a few of the EXPENSIVE low energy light bulbs that should last for years. Three burned out in a couple months. Not worth it if that is going to be the norm.



I've converted every light possible to CSF lights. I started maybe two years ago. In that time I've had 4 bad lights that burnt out after only a few months of service. Irritating yes but not the norm as the remaining lights, including the one's I burn in our outdoor lights all night long, are still going strong (watch the porch lights be burnt out when I get home this morning).


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## dougp26364 (Jun 8, 2008)

Fern Modena said:


> Sometimes "being green" just creates other problems...
> 
> An example:  A friend of mine is thinking of putting in a tankless water heater, thus saving on her gas bill.  Sounds good, right?  But if her shower isn't near her water heater, doesn't she waste water waiting for it to heat up?  You can recover it, but how much recovered water can you use (since we already have drippers for our desert landscaping)?  We have a water shortage here, so saving on her gas only makes the water situation worse.........
> 
> Fern



Another area of concern that the media likes to gloss over are the wind turbines that are popping up in different spots. It seems that they have a tendency to wipe out birds that don't see the turbine's turning and fly into them. I'm wondering what the effect is going to be in the long run on the bird population as wind generated power becomes more popular. Here in KS I'm starting to see a few wind farms being built and one school has even had a wind turbine installed to help generate power.

I was watching a program the other day on Germany's push towards renewable energy sources and the use of solar panels. Farmers are encourage to use acerage for sun farms to generate electricty with government subsidies. I'm wondering if the loss of crop land is going to have any unexpected far reaching consequences. 

Here in KS I'd be happy to have solar panels installed on my roof if there were incentives or if it were more cost effective. Right now it's just to expensive to have them installed for to little return. Approx. savings per month on utilities would be between $60 to $100, depending on the number of panels installed and the cost would be between $10,000 upwards of $40,000. That's just to imbalaned to be practical. And then there's the damage I fear hail would do. So far this year we've had at least three hail storms go throug and last year I can recall at least two. I wonder how my homeowners insurance would be affected if there were concerns over repairing damage to solar cells from hail damage.


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## Keitht (Jun 8, 2008)

JLB said:


> BTW, Sir, to compare me with someone who accosts people on the street and harasses them, shaking them down for money, just because I toss aluminum cans in a recycle bin, is a bit extreme, don't you think?



Jim,

I wasn't comparing you with anything or anybody.  I was commenting on the general situation.  As I said in my original post I'm not against recycling.


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## Keitht (Jun 8, 2008)

JLB said:


> BTW, Sir, ......
> 
> I can tell by that type of reply that folks really have tripped your trigger!!!
> 
> So sorry for you, that your personal experiences are so disturbing.



BTW, Sir,

If your standard reaction to anybody who disagrees with your views is to attempt to belittle them, I can certainly understand why the "old guy" reacts in the way he does.


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## Chrisky (Jun 8, 2008)

JLB, you've explained yourself very well.  I feel that there will always be some opinion or reason why something new isn't feasible, like the wind turbines. But in the long run they are very effective in producing energy. Not meaning to sound facetious, but we attract alot of birds in our yard, and quite a few fly directly at our windows, so do I not put out bird feeders or do I eliminate my windows. We've also looked into the tankless gas water heater and will probably be putting one in in the near future. I don't think I'd be wasting much water, even with the regular system I have to run the water a bit to get the hot water coming even though we've insulated all our hot water pipes. So in the long run we'd be saving energy in heating the water.


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## jschmidt (Jun 8, 2008)

June 12 is “CARBON BELCH DAY”!   

I plan to do my part by turning on an extra light or two.  I’ll also drive into town, cut my lawn and burn trash on the twelfth.


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## JLB (Jun 8, 2008)

I was pretty clear in my reply to your reply, I thought, but to re-explain that also, it appeared that you were comparing my tossing cans in a recycling bin, without asking anyone else to do anything at all, to people who have accosted you in the street and shaken you down.

Just curious . . . how did you make that trip . . . from what I am doing to what they do . . . and see a similarity?

How did you go from evergy and resource conservation to harassing people?



Keitht said:


> BTW, Sir,
> 
> If your standard reaction to anybody who disagrees with your views is to attempt to belittle them, I can certainly understand why the "old guy" reacts in the way he does.


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## JLB (Jun 8, 2008)

If it wasn't for the fact that this one, *and only one*, _old guy_ is so persistent in his critical comments, as if there is a reward for finding fault, so that his continual nit-picking builds up to a critical fault, and he always seems to do it when you are least expecting it, like giving someone a wedgie  , perhaps I would have had something witty to reply.

This crack just caught me wrong, perhaps because some of the newer guys have told me that he is doing it to them also.

His joke and sense of humor always has to do with insulting somebody, tearing them down to build himself up.  We hang out with friends who do that sorta thing, but everyone knows it's all kidding.  With _old guy _it is not kidding; we don't have that kind of relationship.  He's just a guy I'm forced to be with, as I am to him.

In hindsight, perhaps the best way to have dealt with it would have been to have held out my hand and said, "OK,"  (Remember, he offered me $2 . . . cuz I'm so hard up.) and continued what I was doing.



pjrose said:


> I think you have been completely clear each time.  You were expressing annoyance at the _set-in-his-ways_ guy's persistent comments.  I would be too, and would maybe try to come up with some kind of joke (don't know what).  Or just say "Yup, I know your opinion, and you know mine, so guess we'll just have to agree to disagree."


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## JLB (Jun 8, 2008)

_Old guy_ probably does that, too, when he doesn't have me handy.  



Chrisky said:


> I don't think I'd be wasting much water, even with the regular system I have to run the water a bit to get the hot water coming even though we've *insulted *all our hot water pipes.


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## JLB (Jun 8, 2008)

Actually, this thread is about people behaving badly, but I knew that because it is over the Green Movement that we would go down that road.   

Probably if he had insulted me because I floss my teeth after lunch (if I did), we would now be talking about dental care.  

Old Guy also does the same thing when I post notes so that our _co-workers _on other _shifts _will know what's going on, so I guess we could have a discussion about posting notes or trying to inform co-workers.  Perhaps _old guy _makes an issue about me trying to keep co-workers informed because he wants them to be as clueless as he is.  Ya think?   

But as long as we are making semi-related comments about energy conservation, rather than bad behavior, yeah, we have been converting over to mini-flourescents, as incandescents burn out and as there are specials on the new ones.  Actually, we had some in the city before coming here, before they were really in vogue and improved.  I can't recall that any have stopped working yet.

But I do have other complaints about them, mostly that they do not fit in some of our applications.

As far as it taking a long time for hot water to get to faucets, we would be in the running for that reward, if there is one, but, gosh, since we are on a well, isn't that a free resource that we will never run out of?


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## bobcat (Jun 8, 2008)

JLB said:


> No, not something Kermit said!
> 
> I mean, it's hard for a person to do something about energy and resource conservation. . . you know, the Green Movement . . . you've heard of it?
> 
> ...


I remember taking two of my friends deep sea fishing. Well the waves came up. As you know, they both were seasick and turned a nice shade of GREEN.


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## JLB (Jun 8, 2008)

Besides, Keith, you have to consider how Internet forums work:

1.  You post a gripe or pet peeve.
2.  As the replies get posted you make your lists, Those Against Me and Those For me.
3.  You then browbeat into submission those on the Those Against Me list, until the only one(s) left posting are Those For You or just yourself.
4.  You put a Gold Star next to those who help you with the browbeating.
5.  You post another gripe and start again.
6.  Through this process you compile a list of really true friends, those who will come to your side in every little Internet forum brouhaha, and you try to hang with them as often as you can.


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## Jaybee (Jun 8, 2008)

*Ahem!*

Back to the subject at hand... We are very disappointed that our complex does not support recycling, though the rest of the area seems to.  I keep nagging, and hearing, "We're working on it."
I keep bags in the car to use at the grocery store, drug store, etc.  My problem (getting better) is remembering to take them out of the car when I go to shop.
I've found a wonderful website for recycling bags.  They have some I can keep in my purse!  www.recyclablebags.com.  Jean


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## Rose Pink (Jun 8, 2008)

Patri said:


> ...In another arena, I want to conserve on electricity and bought quite a few of the EXPENSIVE low energy light bulbs that should last for years. Three burned out in a couple months. Not worth it if that is going to be the norm.


 
That's been our experience, too.  One burned out as soon as it was screwed in the socket.  A sales clerk told me that they are super sensitive to being jostled in shipping.  Anyway, DH went out and bought a hoard of the regular bulbs so we are well-stocked for the next few years.  And since we have dimmer switches on almost all the lights, we can't use the expensive, supposedly long-lasting (NOT) CFs anyway.


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## macko420 (Jun 8, 2008)

Rose Pink said:


> That's been our experience, too.  One burned out as soon as it was screwed in the socket.




We've had a few burn out quickly too.  Plus they seem to take a few seconds to "warm up" or something.  But the biggest problem is what to do to dispose of them.  We don't have anyone recycling these in our area yet.


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## JLB (Jun 8, 2008)

Sorta reluctant to add gasoline to the smoldering flames, but another thing that aggravates the situation is when _old guy_ gets called on insults he tosses in something like, "It's a shame that you have such a ----ing miserable life that you can't take a ----ing joke."

That is salt in the wound.

I don't mean to go religious, because of the restriction on it here, and I request that no one take it further down that deep-dark abyss, but it is so important in the case of this particular person, 'cuz he is extremely pious, wearing it on his shirtsleeve.  So, when these hateful, insultive things come out of him, it is so very hypocritical, but not that he can see that.


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## Texasbelle (Jun 8, 2008)

*Change/better/worse*

We have green boxes emptied by the trash collectors for tin, aluminum, plastic bottles, newspapers.  Used to take glass, but not enough demand.  Now that there is a plastic scare, perhaps glass should be encouraged, including recycling.  We also have yard waste collection.  When I found out the city threw it in with the regular landfill stuff for several months, I was mad!  One huge change [pun intended] is the use of disposible diapers.  I feel that I kept lots of them out of the landfill by using cloth diapers and training pants.  There were some neat fitted ones with snaps that were good.  And the regular ones made the best dust cloths when their use as diapers was over.  I have plenty of rags, old towels, etc., but still use paper towels.  [I like the size choice kind--seem less wasteful.]  Reuse the plastic and paper grocery bags--I know I should use cloth bags.  The younger members of our family don't recycle--go figure.


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## TUGBrian (Jun 8, 2008)

Tell me you seriously didnt just personally insult a TUG Volunteer...not once...but twice in the same thread.


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## Chrisky (Jun 8, 2008)

He's making all those comments because he's just a miserable old guy!  As Kermit said "it's not easy being green". Kudos to you JLB for trying to do your part


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## TUGBrian (Jun 9, 2008)

We do not accept anyone insulting TUG volunteer staff under any circumstances.

These people give up their free time in a thankless position to make TUG what it is...and I certainly wont tolerate any sort of disrespect thrown their way.


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## colovaca (Jun 9, 2008)

*tankless water heater problem?*

Sorry - I didn't follow.  My sister is considering one because of lack of space for a decent size tank.  Why is this less efficient?  Is the distance to the bathrooms more of a problem with these?  Thanks for any advice.  The other alternative may be two tanks in series.

On CFLs - I got several at least 15 years ago from my old the utility at a deep discount.  Some went out early or arrived defective, all dimmed over time, but all in all it was a very positive experience.  In the past 5 years, the results have been excellent.  And periodic sales have made the cost per bulb very reasonable.  (except that I made the mistake of stocking up - forgetting that they don't wear out often!)


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## Jaybee (Jun 9, 2008)

I'm not sure anyone has come up with a safe way to dispose of them, yet. I'm still not convinced that the alleged savings of electricity would outweigh the eventual danger from the mercury they contain.  Even though it's claimed the mercury content is infintesimal, multiply that by millions. The instructions for what to do if one should break are scary enough.  



macko420 said:


> We've had a few burn out quickly too.  Plus they seem to take a few seconds to "warm up" or something.  But the biggest problem is what to do to dispose of them.  We don't have anyone recycling these in our area yet.


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## Fern Modena (Jun 9, 2008)

I live in Southern Nevada, where there is never more than 4" of rain, so there is always a water shortage.  The past few years it is worse.  That is why tankless water heaters are no good for us...you waste water waiting for it to get hot.  Its not so critical a problem if there is no drought where you live.

Fern



colovaca said:


> Sorry - I didn't follow.  My sister is considering one because of lack of space for a decent size tank.  Why is this less efficient?  Is the distance to the bathrooms more of a problem with these?  Thanks for any advice.  The other alternative may be two tanks in series.


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## riverdees05 (Jun 9, 2008)

In Cape Girardeau, MO we had recycling day and on every Tuesday we could set our out recycleable and the city would pick them up.  Also Trash pick up was one a week and you could only have two cans without pay extra.  In Spring Hill, TN the only way to do recycle is to load them up in your car and take them to the recycle center, but trash pick up is unlimited number of cans.  At $4.00 a gallon gas, how much of that do you think happens?


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## Chrisky (Jun 10, 2008)

The tankless water heater provides hot water on demand, therefore saving energy. There are different sizes depending on the size of the household and their hot water needs. This is a helpful site which explains the tankless heater. http://www.tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/


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## Keitht (Jun 10, 2008)

[_Message deleted. Per the Posting Rules, comments or questions about moderating or possible administrative actions "should be communicated to the bbs staff directly via email or personal message." In this case, you might want to contact Brian directly._ Dave M, BBS Moderator]


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## Carol C (Jun 11, 2008)

Please don't stereotype folks by saying "old guy". What is "old" anyway, and why wouldn't older folks be as open to recycling and conservation as others? I know retirees who volunteer for recycling efforts, such as annual electronic equipment collection drives. Btw, most cities have annual collections of electronics to properly dissassemble and recycle parts, so as not to fill landfills with toxic waste. Please keep your eyes and ears open for such programs in your city or town.


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## Keitht (Jun 11, 2008)

Keitht said:


> [_Message deleted. Per the Posting Rules, comments or questions about moderating or possible administrative actions "should be communicated to the bbs staff directly via email or personal message." In this case, you might want to contact Brian directly._ Dave M, BBS Moderator]



No problem Dave.  I didn't think at the time.  Brian has responded via PM.


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## colovaca (Jun 11, 2008)

Thanks for the info about tankless water heaters.


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## Chrisky (Jun 11, 2008)

You're welcome.


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## Jaybee (Jun 13, 2008)

*Back to the CFL Bulbs....*

FYI
http://youtube.com/watch?v=e-LOtKIIKcg


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## Rose Pink (Jun 13, 2008)

2014. Guess I have a few more years before I have to sit in the dark. Do you think anyone will invent an energy efficienct light bulb that can be used with my dimmer switches or must I replace all of those, too? Do you think the CFLs will be made to not burn out in a shorter time than the incandescents? I wouldn't mind paying the extra costs for them if they really did what they say and if they worked in all the fixtures, but they don't in my experience.

And the disposal part---I took one to the toxic recycling center when I disposed of some paint.  They wouldn't take them.  Said the public libraries had recycling bins for them.  I drove around with that thing in my back seat for weeks until I finally just threw it in the trash.  Didn't see anywhere that took them,  including the library.


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## Chrisky (Jun 13, 2008)

Saw advertised in the WalMart flyer today, they are now selling CFLs that can be used with dimmers.  It surprises me that so many people say their CFLs are burning out, I've had the same CFLs in our lamps, some are on timers, some not, for at  least 2 years now (maybe even more) and not one has burned out.  Maybe I'm just lucky. I even have some of the first ones that came out, just straight ones not the twisted ones, so they must be more than 4 years old by now.


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## Teresa (Jun 15, 2008)

*Take him up on it!*



JLB said:


> No, not something Kermit said!
> 
> 
> One, older, _set-in-his ways_ guy just laughs at us, makes fun of us and insults us, with comments like, "if you need a coupla bucks, I can help you out."  He makes a point of making fun of us at least once a day.
> ...



TAKE THE COUPLE OF BUCKS HE OFFERS.   That will shut him up pretty quickly and you get to 'joke' back with him.   don't take offense.   Some people just don't know any better.   It's like my mother-in-law who refuses to wear a seatbelt because no one's going to tell her what to do.

I find it extremely amusing that many of us have been made fun of for things we do.    My mother (now 86 years old) had all us kids composting, recycling, weeding the yard (so we didn't have to spray it with chemicals) and taking short showers and turning off the water when we weren't actually using it (i.e. not leaving it run to rinse the dishes - you waited until you had several dishes to rinse before you turned on the water).    Our family was made fun of for our 'hick' ways (in a friendly sort of way).   I've continued that composting/recycling/non-chemical lawn/water conservation thing with my own family and my kids were often 'kidded' about how 'odd' our family was (you do what with kitchen scraps?).   And then several years ago the 'green thing' hit and all of a sudden all of us were asked to cut back on the garbage pile by composting, shut off the water, stop over-chemically treating the lawn and recycling things (to also cut down on the garbage pile).    My kids were shocked that they had been doing this all along and being teased about it and now it was 'okay' to do - even encouraged!   What a life lesson that was for them (i.e. Mom's not so dumb after all).   And as they get older and see all those 'green shows' on TV they wonder what all the hullabaloo is about.   

So next time the guy offers you a few bucks go ahead and take them.   And say 'THANKS for the extra money - I'll recycle it at 'xxxxx' (coffee shop or whatever other place you will use it)'.  Go ahead and play the game nicely and before you know it he may be switching sides just to be part of the fun.


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## Carolinian (Jun 24, 2008)

I used to recycle, but stopped when the Green machine started attacking my rights, so I decided they could all get stuffed.  The right they attacked was our right to travel.  The governments of the UK and now the Netherlands have imposed extra $100+ air ticket taxes on trans-Atlantic tickets to discourage air travel in order to ''save the planet''.  The UK now wants to raise that to $200.  My response to that direct attack on my rights is to adopt a zero cooperation with Greens approach.

If you want some insight on the real agenda of the Greens, read ''Blue Planet in Green Shackles'' by Vaclav Klaus, currently President of the Czech Republic, or the best selling novel ''State of Fear'' by Michael Crichton (Juriassic Park, etc.)


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## bluehende (Jun 24, 2008)

Carolinian said:


> I used to recycle, but stopped when the Green machine started attacking my rights, so I decided they could all get stuffed.  The right they attacked was our right to travel.  The governments of the UK and now the Netherlands have imposed extra $100+ air ticket taxes on trans-Atlantic tickets to discourage air travel in order to ''save the planet''.  The UK now wants to raise that to $200.  My response to that direct attack on my rights is to adopt a zero cooperation with Greens approach.
> 
> If you want some insight on the real agenda of the Greens, read ''Blue Planet in Green Shackles'' by Vaclav Klaus, currently President of the Czech Republic, or the best selling novel ''State of Fear'' by Michael Crichton (Juriassic Park, etc.)



I am quite sure it was the revenue not the planet they wanted to save...

And as a bleeding heart liberal who does everything he can to conserve and reuse (even though it sometimes saves me a whole penny) I will stay out of this conversation.

Wayne


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## TomCayman (Jun 25, 2008)

I've definitely been converted to "tree hugging", but as a profit motivate businessman, and an analytical one at that, am carefully assessing each potential move before making them in a gradual fashion.

I could therefore post the world's longest TUG post on this, but will spare you, just a few thoughts for now :

Personal - House :
- tankless water heaters. Forget electric (nowhere near efficient enough compared to gas), and be careful with gas, due to the (already posted) inefficiencies of wasting water as it heats up and moves around the house... also, if you are in a high humidity area and mount these on outside walls....I'm pretty worried about them rotting well before they hit pay back.
- old fashioned heaters. Get one with proper lagging and a decent digital and programmable thermostat... ancient history in Europe, but standard US water heaters are still using 30+ year old technology standards (minimal lagging, always on, thermostat is a screw you turn).
- A/C. Be careful, don't go to the absolute highest SEER unit, the payback is just not there once you get past about 16 to 18 SEER
- Roof insulation - I've decided to go for open cell foam (after MUCH research). Expensive, but payback is there in a hot climate
- Roof material. For both hurricane preparedness and insulation, standing seam roof.. and WHITE... don't believe them when they say with the new coatings you are just as reflective and emittive with coloured roofing, their own stat make clear what we all learned in school.. white reflects best.
- House direction... if you have this choice.. in a hot climate, face the house to the North, in cold climate, to the South.. again, obvious stuff
- Windows... in a hot climate, get the right windows (low E), double glazed.. if you plan to use the a/c a lot.
- Cistern. In my hot climate (with all water being desalinated), I've gone back to the old fashioned idea of building a cistern under the garage, with that water to be used for landscaping, pool, and toilet flushing.
- Dual flow toilets.. yup, even though using cistern water, I bought them.. daft, eh ?
- Salt water chlorination in the pool... if you haven't converted, do it ! Better for the environment, lower running costs, and much nicer to swim in
- landscaping. If in an area where water is scarce / expensive... minimise the water suckers.. and grass... xeriscaping....

Personal - habits and small changes
- A/C (again).. don't run it lower than 79 (run fans to give more cooling, more efficient than running the a/c any cooler), and turn up to 82-84 during the day if you are out.
- Compact CFLs - only use them in areas where you don't continually turn on and off the light... light any fluorescents, life is based on cycles, not hours.
- Cars... drive less, trade in that SUV for something smaller.. my crystal ball shows old fashioned station wagons making a comeback... I've had a (small) station wagon for years... gets well over 30mpg
- Reusable grocery bags.... use 'em... and wherever possible don't take a bag in a store when they offer you one....
- bottles and cans... give up soda entirely, or if that fails, buy the 2l bottles rather than cans...... ban bottled water, refill bottles from the fridge dispenser (the filters help take out metallic flavours etc from city water)
- don't run the dishwasher / washer / dryer until they are full.....save water and power.
- try to minimise buying heavily packaged foods.. so cook more from fresh ingredients.. it tastes better anyway 
- don't buy so many magazine or newspapers.. read the newspaper online (on our islands, over 30% of all waste is paper and cardboard!)

Cayman is terrible at recycling.... it is said we are too small a place to make it worthwhile... but for so wealthy an island, surely it is not too much to ask for us to be more responsible in looking after the place we live and where our children will live ? hmm

Oh, and as for our resort...lots and lots of stuff... so much in fact that I have an intern this summer working on collating all of this so we can track it and also communicate it to our guests and owners.... though having said that, we plan to do more and more in this area... just the right thing to do.

Right.. off back to lentil knitting and yoghurt making 

Oh, and in case you think I am a total convert... I'm still a sceptic, I think carbon offsets are just an invention to a) cheaply salve consumer consciences, and b) enrich many middle men....


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 28, 2008)

The trash companies charge EXTRA to pick up recycle products where my son and daughter live.  I don't understand a big company not wanting to recycle, but they want it to be a money maker for them.  That is ridiculous!  Less trash in the dump is a good thing, but some people are too cheap to pay to recycle, so they just throw everything away.  

I am very impressed with our own city because we have a one-can recycle program.  We can put cardboard, junk mail, magazines, phone books, newspapers, plastic, glass, foil, tin cans, soda cans, etc., all into the same can.  

JLB must be in Estes Park because I haven't seen him posting here in a while.  Where oh where is JLB?  I miss you, friend!  And to think you are probably only an hour away from me right now, enjoying beautiful Estes Park.  Have a wonderful time!  

Old guys?  Aren't you an old guy?  :rofl:


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## AwayWeGo (Jul 22, 2008)

*9 Trash & Recycling Trucks 9*

In our county, commercial collection companies pick up curbside trash & curbside recycles & curbside bundled yard debris once or twice a week.  Customers are billed & pay individually. 

In some neighborhoods, the county also provides municipal collection, paid for by extra fees tacked on to residents' semiannual real estate tax bills.  Neighborhoods served by the private companies can petition to have the county trucks come in instead.  If some high percentage of residents sign on to the petitions, the county takes over. 

The lady across the circle started 1 of those petitions.  We signed.  The Chief Of Staff's sister signed.  Several other neighbors signed.  But not everybody signed. 

So now, we take from a private collection company that provides 1 pick-up a week & offers sr. citz. rates much appreciated by us old folks.  The private collection company that was already picking up in this neighborhood still picks up for lots of the other neighbors.  And 1 block away, the county's own refuse & recycle trucks make the weekly rounds. 

So whereas we formerly had 1 set of big honking diesel powered trucks picking up refuse & recycles & yard debris around here, now we have 3 sets of big honking trucks covering the same territory. 

How the proliferation of trucks -- doing the same job formerly handled by just 1 set of trucks -- is supposed to help environmental quality around here has not been explained.  

So it goes. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Egret1986 (Jan 21, 2009)

*Yeah, where is JLB?  I think somebody knows!  Hmmm?*



rickandcindy23 said:


> JLB must be in Estes Park because I haven't seen him posting here in a while.  Where oh where is JLB?  I miss you, friend!  And to think you are probably only an hour away from me right now, enjoying beautiful Estes Park.  Have a wonderful time!
> 
> Old guys?  Aren't you an old guy?  :rofl:



I also miss JLB.  So much to share!  Oh where, oh where is JLB?  Just when I needed some expert info and opinions on Southwest FL.  Anyone know what has become of JLB?


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## The Conch Man (Jan 21, 2009)

Jim is alive & doing well as we just saw him, his luvly wife & friends just last week. We played golf with them including RaP, had some dinner, drinks, you know the rest.

Jim is over at www.TimeshareForums.com as he has been for years, doing his thing! Come over & say hi to him as he would really want to talk to ya & give his recommendations as he always has here on Tug.


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## Egret1986 (Jan 21, 2009)

*Thanks, Conch Man!*

He can always be counted on for help and info, and a good  belly laugh!


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## Egret1986 (Sep 22, 2011)

*JLB reports that the aluminum can recycling bin is still there.*

He didn't mention if the "old guy" was still there or if "peace" had been made.

Hey, Jim, if you're anywhere out there in "la la" land lurking, post an update.  I'm sure there's interest out there.  Nothing since 2008 from you.  What's up with that?  


There's a whole new generation of Tuggers that haven't had the benefit of your humor and such.   Not to mention your vast knowledge on this and that.

Off topic, but what's going on in Southwest Florida?  Inquiring minds want to know.


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