# Eating a meat based diet



## ace2000 (Mar 12, 2012)

This might ruffle some feathers, but here's a new study published recently and is being reported by ABC news today. A year ago, I would have scoffed at this report, but after seeing my blood pressure and cholesterol numbers drastically reduced by going on a vegetarian diet and by taking a more active lifestyle, I'm a believer.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/w_Diet...ed-increased-mortality-risk/story?id=15901365


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## ronparise (Mar 12, 2012)

Ive been reading and talking about it, but I havent done it yet.  I intend to go to a plant based diet...like Bill Clinton..Im trying to get my wife to go along, but if she doesn't Ill go it alone


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## ace2000 (Mar 12, 2012)

ronparise said:


> Ive been reading and talking about it, but I havent done it yet. I intend to go to a plant based diet...like Bill Clinton..Im trying to get my wife to go along, but if she doesn't Ill go it alone


 
Ron, here's a recent thread that explains what changed my lifestyle. The CHIP program provides all you need to know to follow the Bill Clinton type of plan. I highly recommend the program.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149509


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## spirits (Mar 12, 2012)

*This is a powerful message*

My husband and I cut back on our meat consumption many years ago but at the same time increased our consumption of cheese and other dairy.  Yes, we would pat ourselves on the back by skipping a cheeseburger supper and having a healthy cheese omelet with cottage cheese instead.
Two weeks ago my DIL and son came over and showed us a movie called Forks over Knives.  Opened my eyes and although we will not go totally vegan or even vegetarian we will make it a habit to have vegan meals as often as 2 or 3 times a week. Once we have used up the meat and cheese (very slowly now) we will cut back on those purchases. Went to the doctor's today for annual checkup and she totally approved.  She went vegetarian many years ago.
This, I believe will be the next great movement that the boomers will be part of.  What is more important but to look after our health? I see more and more young people choosing to eat in a sustainable manner.  Not just eat but to avoid overconsumption and excess in all things.  Good for them.


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## spencersmama (Mar 12, 2012)

I have always wondered how genetics affect a person's ideal diet.  When I was in college, I went on exchange to England.  While I was there, I ate a vegetarian diet, not vegan because I occasionally had cheese.  I did this because of financial reasons, not for health reasons.  Even after 3,4, even 6 months, I craved meat EVERY DAY.  It was also during the time of Mad Cow disease, before they figured out what caused it, so that helped keep me away from meat, too.  

Since the first of this year, I have been doing a low carb diet.  I basically eat meat, preferably low fat, and green leafy veggies.  I have lost almost 30 pounds in 10 weeks.  Once the sugar cravings abated after the first week, it has been easy.  I have been on MANY diets, and this is by far the easiest and best for me.  Diabetes runs in both my mother and father's side of the family, and I have a Germanic, muscular body type.  My DH on the other had, has a naturally lean body type and he and his family tend toward high cholesterol.  He has added a lot more whole grains and fresh fruit and veggies and he feels great.  I have often wondered if we have each found the perfect diet for our own body types and and genetic make up.  Trying to eat the same way does not seem to work for us.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 12, 2012)

I like these quotes from the story "The more red meat you eat, the more likely you are to die" and "Eating just one serving more of red mead a day can increase your risk of death by 12%".

Umm, I think regardless of what I eat, my chances are the same as everyone else.

It is all about moderation. Should you eat red meat every day? No. Can you have it one or two times a week? Sure.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 12, 2012)

spencersmama said:


> I have always wondered how genetics affect a person's ideal diet.  When I was in college, I went on exchange to England.  While I was there, I ate a vegetarian diet, not vegan because I occasionally had cheese.  I did this because of financial reasons, not for health reasons.  Even after 3,4, even 6 months, I craved meat EVERY DAY.  It was also during the time of Mad Cow disease, before they figured out what caused it, so that helped keep me away from meat, too.
> 
> Since the first of this year, I have been doing a low carb diet.  I basically eat meat, preferably low fat, and green leafy veggies.  I have lost almost 30 pounds in 10 weeks.  Once the sugar cravings abated after the first week, it has been easy.  I have been on MANY diets, and this is by far the easiest and best for me.  Diabetes runs in both my mother and father's side of the family, and I have a Germanic, muscular body type.  My DH on the other had, has a naturally lean body type and he and his family tend toward high cholesterol.  He has added a lot more whole grains and fresh fruit and veggies and he feels great.  I have often wondered if we have each found the perfect diet for our own body types and and genetic make up.  Trying to eat the same way does not seem to work for us.



I lost a lot of weight many years ago on a low carb diet. The problem is as soon as you go off of it, you are done. Trying to go back on it is nearly impossible. After two or three days of eggs, you are sick of them. Any change in diet in a positive manner is a lifestyle change. Many peoples (us previously included) lifestyle is to eat many meals out. The problem is that most restaurant meals are the equivalent of two or three servings. a 12oz steak is three to four times the size anyone should eat in a single serving. The sides are just as bad.

It ended up coming down to portion sizes for us. We ate far larger portions than is considered a standard portion size. As indicated in the 2012 weight loss thread, I have been pretty successful by just simply cutting back on portions.


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## ace2000 (Mar 12, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> I like these quotes from the story "The more red meat you eat, the more likely you are to die" and "Eating just one serving more of red mead a day can increase your risk of death by 12%".
> 
> Umm, I think regardless of what I eat, my chances are the same as everyone else.


 
You must have missed this quote... 

_Swapping red meat for healthy protein sources, such as poultry, fish, legumes and whole grains was linked to a decrease in mortality risk, ranging from 7 percent for fish to 19 percent for nuts._


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## pjrose (Mar 12, 2012)

It's getting past those sugar cravings that's my problem.  I can do just fine all day, but at 3 in the morning leafy greens or omelets just don't do the trick.  It's either ice cream, brownies, peanut butter, or almonds when they're in the house, and when they're not, just about anything sweet I can find (with my miner's helmet, if you're keeping up with the kitchen gadgets thread)  .

(I'm not sure why almonds are on the list of things that substitute for sweets....but they do.....and I know they're good for me, but they're so high in calories!)


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## hypnotiq (Mar 12, 2012)

We have become a society of extremes. 

If you exhibit moderation, there is no need to cut anything out.

True story.


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## ace2000 (Mar 13, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> We have become a society of extremes.
> 
> If you exhibit moderation, there is no need to cut anything out.
> 
> True story.


 
Except for those that want to actually LOWER their cholesterol and blood pressure numbers, I'd agree with that. A vegetarian diet does lower those numbers and provides no side effects. If you want results, you've got to make it happen.


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## heathpack (Mar 13, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> Except for those that want to actually LOWER their cholesterol and blood pressure numbers, I'd agree with that. A vegetarian diet does lower those numbers and provides no side effects. If you want results, you've got to make it happen.



Ace, I'm not arguing that your diet is not a good one.  However, adopting a more active lifestyle will also lower cholesterol and blood pressure.  So will losing weight, which I'm guessing you did.

I lowered my already-normal cholesterol this past year by losing weight & exercising.  Continued to eat plenty of meat, including red meat 1-2 times per week.

The study you cite involved people who ate red meat daily, which is where the comment about moderation is coming from I think.

A study like that does not prove red meat is bad.  It may be proving that the lack of fish, chicken, nuts, etc is bad.  Those foods contain a variety of micronutrients and healthy fats,  if you don't eat them, your health is the poorer.  It may actually be that if you are almost exclusively eating red meat, you are missing out on these other nutrients.  It would be like if a person had a shelf full of vitamins and all they took every day was B1.  Then some study comes by and finds the B1 consumers get more colds than the people who take a many different vitamins, including vitamin C.  You could not conclude in that study that vitamin B1 causes colds, it more likely is that the responsible factor is the lack of vitamin C.

Another important thing to realize is that not all beef is created equal.  Grass-fed beef contains a healthier fat and micronutrient profile than does conventional corn-fed beef and grass-fed beef makes many of the lists of so-called super foods.

I could not be more happy for you with the health benefits you've achieved and more power to you for wanting to share the wealth.  I am just not convinced the study you cite here really makes the point that beef is bad or that a vegetarian diet is superior.

H


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## ace2000 (Mar 13, 2012)

heathpack said:


> Ace, I'm not arguing that your diet is not a good one.  However, adopting a more active lifestyle will also lower cholesterol and blood pressure.  So will losing weight, which I'm guessing you did.
> 
> I lowered my already-normal cholesterol this past year by losing weight & exercising.  Continued to eat plenty of meat, including red meat 1-2 times per week.


 
Fair point. I can tell you that last summer I was working out for at least 2 hours a day and have continued to work out during my lunch hour.  I've always wondered how much credit was due to diet and how much was exercise.  I think it was a combination of both.

The part I did not realize was that it is possible to significantly lower your numbers.  I've seen too many examples to not be convinced.  

Please don't get the wrong idea.  I am NOT saying this is the only approach.  I am really not an expert on this matter (like I am at timeshares HA!)...  only sharing my personal results.  Everyone can take away from it what they wish.


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## Mosca (Mar 13, 2012)

Let's make sure we aren't being mislead by statistics. There's a 20% greater health risk for those who eat processed red meat every day. What that means is that if there's a 1% chance of having a heart attack, then those who eat processed red meat every day have a 1.2% chance of having a heart attack. That's 1 extra in 500. It's the difference between 10 in 1000 and 12 in 1000.

So weigh the risk, but weigh it with full knowledge. If you like vegetables just fine, and don't mind eating smaller amounts of meat and having meatless days (and there are a lot of reasons to like that), then by all means, eat less meat. If, on the other hand, you love your beef stew and burgers, you might not find the reduction in risk worth the change in satisfaction.


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## Egret1986 (Mar 13, 2012)

*"Eating a Meat Based Diet" put me "off" from opening this thread*

I thought that it was going to be a thread for a new study promoting a meat-based diet.  I'm no vegetarian by any stretch of the imagination, but I was glad to find out this thread wasn't what I thought it was.

Everything in moderation as "they" say (for the most part) .


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## hypnotiq (Mar 13, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> Except for those that want to actually LOWER their cholesterol and blood pressure numbers, I'd agree with that. A vegetarian diet does lower those numbers and provides no side effects. If you want results, you've got to make it happen.



You can lower both of those while not cutting out anything completely. You can have a well rounded, healthy diet, with moderate exercise and not have to cut out any particular food completely.  

Once again, moderation.


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## geekette (Mar 13, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> You can lower both of those while not cutting out anything completely. You can have a well rounded, healthy diet, with moderate exercise and not have to cut out any particular food completely.
> 
> Once again, moderation.



true.  my brother lowered his "bad choley" significantly by adding fruit smoothies for breakfast.  He told me that was the only change he made (it was after I bought him a Magic Bullet for Christmas a few years ago).  He had previously not been a breakfast eater before so seems funny to add in order to subtract.  Prob'ly more to do with metabolism, feeding the body in the morning.

Meanwhile, we all have 100% chance of death.  George Burns smoked and drank and lived to be quite elderly while sometimes people "that do everything right" depart much too early.     

Agree with moderation.  "I can never..." is not something easy to live with.  Deprivation is not a method for success with me.


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## rickandcindy23 (Mar 13, 2012)

Genetics plays a huge part of the way we look and the way we can handle carbs and sugar.  I am built like my grandma, who died at 93 last year.  My sister and aunt are built just like her too.  We all have the same body type, and seriously, from the neck down, you couldn't tell any of us apart.   

My mom was skinny and died at 65, but she smoked.  So who knows?  But she was never built like Grandma.  

Low protein diets don't work for me, and so I eat eggs and bacon for breakfast every day.  I have lost a significant amount of weight in the last 15 months.  I used to eat cereal with milk.  I haven't had cereal since 12/26/2010.  I don't miss it, but at first I was craving my cereal daily.  

I drink protein shakes and eat bars or salad and vegetables, tuna is another thing I enjoy.  

But for dinner, it's almost always red meat, but I eat chicken and fish a few times per week, too.  Is my cholesterol high?  A bit more than it used to be, but Rick's is down 30 points.  Do I eat a lot of meat?  Not really.  4-6 ozs a day is about it.


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## ampaholic (Mar 13, 2012)

geekette said:


> ...
> 
> Meanwhile, we all have 100% chance of death.  George Burns smoked and drank and lived to be quite elderly while sometimes people "that do everything right" depart much too early.
> ...



Yea, nobody gets out of this alive.

I have never been a big red meat eater - mostly chicken, fish and rarely pork.

I dropped my bad cholesterol 15 points by cutting out mayonnaise and subbing mustard.

I'm not sure if modern (kraft) mayonnaise is vegetarian or not.


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## ace2000 (Mar 13, 2012)

So, here's the facts.  This is a well documented study on over 120,000 people that says eating a single serving of red meat per day is the cause of 13% of early deaths.  And eating a single serving of processed meat (i.e. bacon) per day is the cause of 20% of early deaths.  

Everyone can take it and interpret it as it is.  And we're all free to draw our own conclusions.  

This is a significant study that I think we'll be hearing about for a long time in the future.


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## artringwald (Mar 13, 2012)

I get really upset when people look at statistics and jump conclusions. Eating red meat may indeed shorten the lifespan, but then may be some other factor that causes people to crave red meat and make other unhealthy life style choices. Let's see a controlled study of people that eat red meat and have half of them change their diet to see if it really increases the lifespan. 

So many times I see statistics that indicate a connection might exist and people assume that one causes the other. Did you know that owning a Mercedes can cause baldness? I did a study and found out that a higher percentage of Mercedes owners are bald compared to people that own other cars. Never mind that you are usually older before you can afford a Mercedes.
:annoyed:


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## hypnotiq (Mar 13, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> So, here's the facts.  This is a well documented study on over 120,000 people that says eating a single serving of red meat per day is the cause of 13% of early deaths.  And eating a single serving of processed meat (i.e. bacon) per day is the cause of 20% of early deaths.
> 
> Everyone can take it and interpret it as it is.  And we're all free to draw our own conclusions.
> 
> This is a significant study that I think we'll be hearing about for a long time in the future.



You know statistics can be skewed anyway you want, right? 

I stick by my moderation mantra.

Besides, what good is living to be old if you cant enjoy your life on the way there?


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## ricoba (Mar 13, 2012)

artringwald said:


> I get really upset when people look at statistics and jump conclusions.



One statistic I know is a 100% certain, 100% of us are all going to die someday.  It's just some will be sooner than others.


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## TSPam (Mar 13, 2012)

I looked into the study a bit. It did NOT say that red meat increased chance of death. It also said that 1-2 servings a week would not increase risk of heart disease.
Processed meats were very bad but I think that we have all known for a while that the preservatives and nitrates were not good for us.

It is becoming more clear that the type of meat matters. Grass fed beef is actually very good for you giving you the good saturated fats that are needed in our brains and allowing fat soluble vitamins to be absorbed into our bodies.

When I found out that I was gluten intolerant I cut out all starchy carbs to let my gut heal. I ate meat, poultry, fish, vegetables, fruit, nuts and seed as I felt like. I lost 40 pounds. 

That is what worked for me and my cholesterol numbers all improved as well.

There are many studies and many pieces of advice but as someone else has said, finding out what works for you and doing that is the way to go.


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## ace2000 (Mar 13, 2012)

TSPam said:


> I looked into the study a bit. It did NOT say that red meat increased chance of death.


 

Where did you look?  From the article...

_A daily serving of __processed meat__ carried an even bigger risk. Eating one hotdog or two strips of bacon per day *was associated with a 20 percent increased risk of death*, according to the study._


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## ace2000 (Mar 13, 2012)

TSPam said:


> It is becoming more clear that the type of meat matters. Grass fed beef is actually very good for you giving you the good saturated fats that are needed in our brains and allowing fat soluble vitamins to be absorbed into our bodies.


 
Good point.  Here's what the article states to back that up...

_"Try eating poultry or fish once or twice a week and a vegetarian dinner once or twice a week. And when you eat red meat, *switch to leaner cuts and grass-fed cattle*"._


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## Passepartout (Mar 13, 2012)

Boy, between this thread and an article today on people who eat red meat having shorter life expectancies http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1112492778/red-meat-may-shorten-life-expectancy-study-says/ , those who have had success with Atkins and South Beach low-carb diets better duck!

Jim


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## Big Matt (Mar 13, 2012)

The tough part about this thread is that stats don't lie, but I've found that going to a diet of mostly proteins and vegetables has significantly lowered my weight, cholesterol, other key numbers.  I'm not on Atkins, but I do watch what I eat and stay away from animal fat as much as possible.

My biggest take away is that it is SUGAR that is what caused all of my problems.  I never was really obese, but I've gone from 230 to about 200 pounds with a goal of 190.  Cutting out sugar and bad carbs is my key.


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## TSPam (Mar 13, 2012)

stats lie all the time


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## dioxide45 (Mar 13, 2012)

I don't understand how bacon is a processed meat? It is slices of cured pork belly. Does the curing process make it processed? Processed in my mind would be hot dogs, bologna, most deli meats.


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## MuranoJo (Mar 14, 2012)

Passepartout said:


> Boy, between this thread and an article today on people who eat red meat having shorter life expectancies http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1112492778/red-meat-may-shorten-life-expectancy-study-says/ , those who have had success with Atkins and South Beach low-carb diets better duck!
> 
> Jim



No ducking for me.  I am at my best weight, feel great, and have the best blood work when following an Atkins style of diet.  Where does Atkins promote eating a bunch of red meat?  As has been the case for many years, the concept is all about getting away from processed and starchy carbs, basically sugars.  Carbs are good if they are veggies, balanced with protein.  And Atkins recommends good fats, like olive oil, avocados, nuts.

Too many falsehoods floating around about Atkins from people who don't read the book and yet accept stories of someone who claims to be doing Atkins by eating hotdogs or bacon all day.

BTW, Jim, I thought you were a low-carber yourself from some older post?


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## Passepartout (Mar 14, 2012)

muranojo said:


> BTW, Jim, I thought you were a low-carber yourself from some older post?



I have been and to a degree still am. I have slipped on a nice layer of insulation over the last few months and would feel better if it wasn't quite so close.


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## Tia (Mar 14, 2012)

Think that it's the nitrite in it?
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/nutrition/DJ0974.html



dioxide45 said:


> I don't understand how bacon is a processed meat? It is slices of cured pork belly. Does the curing process make it processed? Processed in my mind would be hot dogs, bologna, most deli meats.


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## ace2000 (Mar 14, 2012)

My last word here...  if you look at the details of my previous TUG thread, you'll see that I posted very early in my program, and I posted my thoughts throughout the 2 month course (CHIP program) that I took last summer.

For the benefit of those that don't want to go back and read through it, here are my numbers.  Again, I went to a vegetarian diet, and for one reason or another, I'd average about one serving of meat (chicken or fish) through the week.  I was exercising for at least 2 hours a day throughout the program.

                                        -----------------------20-Jun-2011----      01-Aug-2011---------        15-Oct-2011
Total Cholesterol                     ----198                     -------------------164                    ------------------147
HDL Cholesterol                       ------44                       --------------------55                      --------------------45
LDL Cholesterol                       ------123 -------------------94 ------------------- 89
Triglycerides                           ---------154                      -------------------76 ------------------- 65
Weight                                   ----------------240                      ------------------209 -----------------                    203
Pulse rate                               -------------103                      -------------------70                      --------------------72
Blood pressure              ------112/81(with meds)   106/68(wo meds)   105/70(wo meds)

I've taken these numbers from the written documentation I recieved in the course.  My height is 6'2".  My ideal or goal weight is to get down to the 180s.

I currently take no medications for anything.  Before last summer, I was on  blood pressure meds for the previous five years, 10 mg lisinopril (I believe that's a low dose).

*My point here is that through diet and exercise, you can drastically lower your numbers.  I strongly disagree with those above that say you can do it through moderation.  I believe it requires a total committment!*

One last comment to make.  The two most important contributors to high cholesterol (and atherosclerosis) are meat and dairy products.  The rest of the food groups are not factors.  The course stated that you should strive for your total cholesterol number to be below 160, and if you can get below 150 that you can actually reverse the atherosclerosis process.


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## Ridewithme38 (Mar 14, 2012)

Meh, you live till you die...Why limit the things you truely enjoy in life during the short time you have on this earth?  

Both of my parents work in the health care field, father as a senior editor for a major business news provider(Mostly dealing with Drug companies) and mother as a Nurse administrator....95% of what defines your health and your life span are genetics....If your REALLY going to make life a chore because of that 5%, your not living to your full potential


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## ace2000 (Mar 14, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Meh, you live till you die...Why limit the things you truely enjoy in life during the short time you have on this earth?
> 
> Both of my parents work in the health care field, father as a senior editor for a major business news provider(Mostly dealing with Drug companies) and mother as a Nurse administrator....95% of what defines your health and your life span are genetics....If your REALLY going to make life a chore because of that 5%, your not living to your full potential


 
10 years ago, I believed the same as you.  Now that I'll be turning 50 this year, I kind of see things differently.


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## geekette (Mar 14, 2012)

ricoba said:


> One statistic I know is a 100% certain, 100% of us are all going to die someday.  It's just some will be sooner than others.



Exactly.  My risk of death is 100% no matter what I eat.  Prolonging my time on Earth is somewhat of a crapshoot.  George Burns smoked and drank into a very long life.  There are no guarantees.


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## geekette (Mar 14, 2012)

TSPam said:


> stats lie all the time



true.  

I didn't actually read this study, but in most cases, these things don't tell you everything.  For example, I doubt they break out every genetic factor of the participants and chronicle everything in their lives.   Easy to conclude red meat did them in, but it could easily be something else.  I could be on some med that makes red meat react differently in my body.  We are not all identical.  Far from it.  

And aren't we trusting that the participants were honest about everything they ingested?  Maybe they ditched red meat and loaded up on ice cream or who knows what.

I am always skeptical of 'studies'.


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## ace2000 (Mar 14, 2012)

geekette said:


> true.
> 
> I didn't actually read this study, but in most cases, these things don't tell you everything.  For example, I doubt they break out every genetic factor of the participants and chronicle everything in their lives.   Easy to conclude red meat did them in, but it could easily be something else.  I could be on some med that makes red meat react differently in my body.  We are not all identical.  Far from it.
> 
> ...


 
Yep, I tend to agree with you...  I think I'll step outside now and smoke a couple of packs of cigarettes.


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## Ridewithme38 (Mar 14, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> Yep, I tend to agree with you...  I think I'll step outside now and smoke a couple of packs of cigarettes.



You joke, but my friends grandfather lived well into his 90's smoking almost two packs a day


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## ace2000 (Mar 14, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> You joke, but my friends grandfather lived well into his 90's smoking almost two packs a day


 
Yep, and using that kind of logic there is nothing that is unhealthy for you.  We all have an Uncle Joe who smoked five packs a day, drank a six pack daily, weighed 350lbs, and lived to his nineties.


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## Passepartout (Mar 14, 2012)

There is no doubt that genetics and family history will influence your longevity. So will looking both ways before stepping off a curb.

Jim


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## Ridewithme38 (Mar 14, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> Yep, and using that kind of logic there is nothing that is unhealthy for you.  We all have an Uncle Joe who smoked five packs a day, drank a six pack daily, weighed 350lbs, and lived to his nineties.



Actually i'd use that logic to say nothing is 'HEALTHY' for you, in the end its not what you ate, smoked, drank, walked, its how your gene's are defined...Eat all the Cheeseburgers you want, or all the vegetables you want, nothing can change genetics

The most important thing is that you live life, if you are measuring everything you put into your body before you eat it, your not living life, if your scared to drink a rum and coke because of the calories, your not living life, if you avoid 'smoking' restaurants and bars, your not living life


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## ace2000 (Mar 14, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Actually i'd use that logic to say nothing is 'HEALTHY' for you, in the end its not what you ate, smoked, drank, walked, its how your gene's are defined...Eat all the Cheeseburgers you want, or all the vegetables you want, nothing can change genetics


 
So, you're saying that weight, cholesterol, and blood pressure numbers have nothing to do with your overall health and when you die?   You should write a book on that topic.


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## Ridewithme38 (Mar 14, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> So, you're saying that weight, cholesterol, and blood pressure numbers have nothing to do with your overall health and when you die?   You should write a book on that topic.



In a general sense??  No, they don't...Weight is a non-issue for most people, i hate that people see a number and try to define health by it, you can be 300lbs or 98lbs and be healthy, its all about height, frame, genetics, muscle definition...there are hundreds if not thousands of other defining factors in it...

For instance, me and my older brother and a friend of mine weight about the same amount, between 215lbs-220lbs....based on your assumption that weight is a definition of health, you would assume that we are all equally unhealthy...that's simply not true, because of our various builds we all carry the weight completely differently on our frames, my friend has almost twice the shoulder width(he's a Gym Rat, he's basicly square) as my brother who Run's daily and i'm right about in between, i never work out, but i'm a little taller then both of them

My point is, the numbers on a scale do not matter AT ALL when it comes to health and fitness


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## glypnirsgirl (Mar 14, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Actually i'd use that logic to say nothing is 'HEALTHY' for you, in the end its not what you ate, smoked, drank, walked, its how your gene's are defined...Eat all the Cheeseburgers you want, or all the vegetables you want, nothing can change genetics
> 
> The most important thing is that you live life, if you are measuring everything you put into your body before you eat it, your not living life, if your scared to drink a rum and coke because of the calories, your not living life, if you avoid 'smoking' restaurants and bars, your not living life



Depends on your perspective. 

I think that if you can't walk 3 miles at Disney World, you aren't living life. If you don't look good in your jeans, you aren't living life. You aren't enjoying a physical relationship with your partner, you aren't living life. 

I tried the CHIP plan last summer for about 3 months. I am one of the fortunate people that has great genetics. I am way overweight (and I don't look good in my jeans) and my blood pressure is 120/68 and my pulse rate is 62. I tried CHIPS for my husband. 

The problem was that Ian's answer to going off of meat was to eat pirogis. He gained weight while we were not eating meat - 60 pounds! I know that it was the pirogis and not the vegetables but it defeated the purpose for us.

I lost weight (12 pounds in 3 months that I have kept off) and I felt better. Because of Ian's reaction (maybe rebellion?), I added meat back into our diet and I have tried to make positive changes. We are now eating 2 or 3 vegetarian meals per week. I have a vegan black bean enchilada recipe that is terrific and it is in our regular rotation now as is a whole wheat spaghetti with white beans and garlic recipe (less often). We sometimes have a hummus and tabbouleh night (my favorite). 

I still think a plant-based diet is the way to go.

elaine


----------



## Ridewithme38 (Mar 14, 2012)

glypnirsgirl said:


> I lost weight (12 pounds in 3 months that I have kept off) and I felt better. Because of Ian's reaction (maybe rebellion?), I added meat back into our diet and I have tried to make positive changes. We are now eating 2 or 3 vegetarian meals per week. I have a vegan black bean enchilada recipe that is terrific and it is in our regular rotation now as is a whole wheat spaghetti with white beans and garlic recipe (less often). We sometimes have a hummus and tabbouleh night (my favorite).
> 
> I still think a plant-based diet is the way to go.
> 
> elaine



I think its great when you can eat a balanced diet and still enjoy the meals, good for you Elaine for finding a way to mix things up without overdoing it by 'weighing' your food or eating portions smaller then the size of a table spoon

I've actually just switched to whole wheat spaghetti, not for any health reasons,  but because i find with the garlic and butter sauce i use with shrimp, it adds to the flavor and actually improves the dish, even with some Marinara sauces i find an improvement in flavor with the whole wheat spaghetti...i'd say i eat spaghetti atleast twice a week and this has done alot to open up the flavors for me

I still say, eat whatever you want, whenever you want...but if what you want, is good for you...Win, Win


----------



## hypnotiq (Mar 14, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> *My point here is that through diet and exercise, you can drastically lower your numbers.  I strongly disagree with those above that say you can do it through moderation.  I believe it requires a total committment!*



I said moderation AND moderate exercise.


----------



## MuranoJo (Mar 15, 2012)

Ace, congrats on the great turnaround in your stats in such a short timeframe!  Amazing what you did.

But I do have to add that 2 hours' exercise in a day is not 'moderate.'  I would say it's pretty intensive.  Honestly, it's probably what we should all do every day, but unlikely given most demands.


----------



## ScoopKona (Mar 15, 2012)

I'll go to my grave a little earlier, thanks. I'm FINE with the trade off.


----------



## ace2000 (Mar 15, 2012)

muranojo said:


> But I do have to add that 2 hours' exercise in a day is not 'moderate.' I would say it's pretty intensive. Honestly, it's probably what we should all do every day, but unlikely given most demands.


 
Yep, as I said, it took a commitment. Some others on this thread are saying moderation. I'm saying if you want to make a difference on your weight, cholesterol, and/or blood pressure numbers, it'll take more than moderation. Moderation is a relative term that can have a different meaning to different people, so I don't really want to get hung up on that. However, I feel that even after you make your goal, it's all about lifestyle change. I wanted to make sure I looked at it from that perspective.

Lately, for the past couple of months, I've been doing the elliptical machine for about 45 minutes per day, plus some walking. I have been maintaining my weight, and haven't had a chance to get blood work done since October. My goal is to be in the 180s by the end of this year. I'm hopeful I can get to that level when I get back to the 2 hours a day routine, hopefully this summer. We'll see how it goes.

Anyhow, I've said it several times... what I'm trying to say is that it's possible to make a real difference on your numbers, and get off the meds. Before last year, I didn't think that was possible.

Someone (spirits) earlier mentioned the movie called Forks over Knives. I meant to comment on that.  If you want to see a snapshot of the CHIP program, get that movie. It's also available on Netflix streaming.


----------



## ace2000 (Mar 15, 2012)

ScoopLV said:


> I'll go to my grave a little earlier, thanks. I'm FINE with the trade off.


 
I'll throw in another point I remember from the class referring to diabetics...  you can either take the needle and eat all you want, or you can choose to live differently.  

As Elaine mentioned so well earlier... it's all about the quality of life.


----------



## Rose Pink (Mar 15, 2012)

Ace, congratulations on your results.  I am always impressed with someone who is willing to sacrifice the excuses in order to meet the goals.  It takes determination and consistency--not easy things in our hedonistic society.  Kudos to you, sir.  

To those who want to believe that genes determine all (or almost all), consider identical twin studies.  While many diseases have a diathetic component, it is just that--a predisposition.  It is external factors that influence whether the gene will "turn on."  If it were only genetic, then identical twins would get the same diseases at the same time.  They do not.  It is obvious that something else must be factored in.  That leaves environment.  IOW, what you eat, drink, as well as what you are exposed to.

To those that equate hedonism with with "the good life" I would encourage you to consider morbidity not just mortality.  Your genes may indeed predispose you to a longer life than most but your lifestyle choices may make those longer years filled with pain and decrepitude.

Consider also those who love you.  Think of how much they must suffer watching you slowly poison yourself.  

And, if you are so inclined, ponder the effects of over consumption on society as a whole.  For example, diabetes costs Americans more than $174 billion (that's billion with a "b") a year.  http://www.diabetes.org/advocate/resources/cost-of-diabetes.html  We all pay for that whether we are diabetic or not.  Our insurance premiums go up for example.  Add to that the cost of cancer, heart disease, etc.  Think of the billions upon billions we could save if we would as a society (and that means us as individuals) make the commitment to make choices that would benefit society.


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## ScoopKona (Mar 15, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> I'll throw in another point I remember from the class referring to diabetics...  you can either take the needle and eat all you want, or you can choose to live differently.
> 
> As Elaine mentioned so well earlier... it's all about the quality of life.



Yes, and keeping right with that idea, who do you think enjoys a better quality of life -- Ms. McKeith or Ms. Lawson? Both are 51, after all. 

If you were forced to choose between swapping places with one of these 51-year olds, who would you pick? Seriously, choose one of those two people. I'd like to see your choice.

As usual for this place, people rush to turn everything into a black and white, no shades of gray, one extreme or the other scenario. "You have to be a vegan, or you have to eat Jack in the Box every day, three meals a day, and wash it down with chemical-laden diet soda."

Yes, I know you didn't say that. But that seems to be consensus. Either you're a vegetarian, or you're living a dangerously unhealthy lifestyle. I won't speak for the rest of the forum, but I ONLY eat food that I cook myself (sometimes my wife cooks). I know the name of the rancher who raised our grass-fed beef. I know ranch where our poultry comes from. I know the people who grew our vegetables. How many "holier-than-thou" vegans can say that?

And speaking of healthy lifestyle, why not google a list of "Famous Vegan Athletes." It's a VERY short list. And it's full of people you've never heard of. If vegetarianism is so good for people, why aren't all the world's professional athletes practicing it?

The way I look at it, we have eight incisors and 24 other teeth. That means about 1/3 of our diet should be protein. I actually eat a little less than 1/3. But you get the idea.


----------



## ace2000 (Mar 15, 2012)

ScoopLV said:


> But that seems to be consensus. Either you're a vegetarian, or you're living a dangerously unhealthy lifestyle.


 
I can only speak for myself and that's not what I believe.  

I'll state it one more time... what I'm saying is... that it's possible to reduce your numbers by following a vegetarian diet.  I also mentioned that I still occasionally eat meat (chicken and fish).  Everyone is free to go to the extreme that they wish.

I'm sharing my story in the interest of helping others and I guess at the risk of appearing 'holier than thou'.  A year ago, I was not aware that it was possible, so maybe others didn't realize it also.  I'm not sure why that would offend you.


----------



## pjrose (Mar 15, 2012)

glypnirsgirl said:


> . . .
> I lost weight (12 pounds in 3 months that I have kept off) and I felt better. Because of Ian's reaction (maybe rebellion?), I added meat back into our diet and I have tried to make positive changes. We are now eating 2 or 3 vegetarian meals per week. I have a vegan black bean enchilada recipe that is terrific and it is in our regular rotation now as is a whole wheat spaghetti with white beans and garlic recipe (less often). We sometimes have a hummus and tabbouleh night (my favorite).
> 
> I still think a plant-based diet is the way to go.



Can you post recipes for your black bean enchiladas and your spaghetti with beans and garlic?


----------



## Passepartout (Mar 15, 2012)

DW reminded me to share that a couple of weeks ago in Mazatlan, we enjoyed multiple vegetarian dinners. Margaritas and guacamole and chips. Repeat as necessary. 

Jim


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## hypnotiq (Mar 15, 2012)

ScoopLV said:


> Yes, and keeping right with that idea, who do you think enjoys a better quality of life -- Ms. McKeith or Ms. Lawson? Both are 51, after all.
> 
> If you were forced to choose between swapping places with one of these 51-year olds, who would you pick? Seriously, choose one of those two people. I'd like to see your choice.
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more.

This thread is pretty much in line with my experience in real life with *most* vegan/vegetarian types.

No one said you had to eat red meat everyday. No one said you have to eat meat everyday at all.  

To live a healthy life style is to consume in moderation and to apply a moderate amount of exercise. Trying to project lifespans based 
purely on diet is a foolish way of doing things.

As I said in my very post. We have become a society of extremes and its sad/troublesome.


----------



## pjrose (Mar 15, 2012)

Passepartout said:


> DW reminded me to share that a couple of weeks ago in Mazatlan, we enjoyed multiple vegetarian dinners. Margaritas and guacamole and chips. Repeat as necessary.
> 
> Jim


----------



## Big Matt (Mar 15, 2012)

Not true.

People lie when they manipulate the stats.  

I had to respond.................. 



TSPam said:


> stats lie all the time


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 15, 2012)

Big Matt said:


> Not true.
> 
> People lie when they manipulate the stats.
> 
> I had to respond..................



Stats don't really lie, they can just be interpereted in different ways.


----------



## pjrose (Mar 15, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> Stats don't really lie, they can just be interpereted in different ways.



AND presented in different ways. I know - I teach Stats!


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 15, 2012)

pjrose said:


> AND presented in different ways. I know - I teach Stats!



I think Mosca's reply in post #14 can show how presentation of the statistics makes a big difference.


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## pjrose (Mar 15, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> I think Mosca's reply in post #14 can show how presentation of the statistics makes a big difference.



Mosca's presentation is correct.  An XX% greater chance means a lot more compared to, say, 50% to start with, than, for example, 1 or 2% to start with.  

Many of my students would compare 1% to 1.2% by saying that the latter is 2% greater - yes, technically, the DIFFERENCE (by subtraction) is _[as corrected by Ace below] point_ two percentage points, but as a LIKELIHOOD, it's best to compare said difference to the starting point - e.g. (1.2 - 1)/1 = .2/1 => 20% greater likelihood. 

(I'm not belittling the issues with meat here....just dealing with the math.)


----------



## ScoopKona (Mar 15, 2012)

Well, I subscribe to the Julia Child "quality of life" metric. Ms. Child ate what she wanted. She famously said, "It's OK to eat like a horse, as long as you also run like one."

I am not about to throw away years of classical training to eat food based solely on numbers. Let's couple that with the fact that all the vegans I know look like Ms. McKeith and Paul McCartney -- bad skin, sunken eyes, bad pallor. That doesn't scream "healthy lifestyle" to me.

I know a guy who does a hard-core Pritikin diet. He's convinced that diet is like religion for some people. And that those people should quit trying to gain converts. People will head in that direction if they want. And won't if they don't.


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## ace2000 (Mar 16, 2012)

pjrose said:


> Many of my students would compare 1% to 1.2% by saying that the latter is 2% greater - yes, *technically, the DIFFERENCE (by subtraction) is indeed two percentage points*)


 
Technically the difference is .2 percentage points.


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## ace2000 (Mar 16, 2012)

In my original post, I stated some would get their 'feathers ruffled'. Some did, and I'm not sure why. But who cares? On this one, everyone can make up their own mind. I just presented the study and provided my results.   The others provided their opinions.

As far any studies go, everyone can read the results, consider the source, and come to their own conclusions. 

If I saw a study conducted by Harvard researchers on over 120K people, that concluded you are 20% more likely to die an early death by eating processed red meat on a daily basis, I might want to take notice. 

Plus, there's at least a 57.82% chance that I know what I'm talking about.  

Good luck everyone!


----------



## ScoopKona (Mar 16, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> If I saw a study conducted by Harvard researchers on over 120K people, that concluded you are 20% more likely to die an early death by eating processed red meat on a daily basis, I might want to take notice.



And if I saw a cardiologist from the Mayo clinic recommending a little grass-fed beef in the diet for the omega-3 and conjugated linoleic acid, I'd take notice to that, too.


Let's play a game called "Guess the vegetarian!"
Round #1, guess the vegetarian:


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## hypnotiq (Mar 16, 2012)

You make it too easy.


----------



## fillde (Mar 16, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> I can only speak for myself and that's not what I believe.
> 
> I'll state it one more time... what I'm saying is... that it's possible to reduce your numbers by following a vegetarian diet.  I also mentioned that I still occasionally eat meat (chicken and fish).  Everyone is free to go to the extreme that they wish.
> 
> I'm sharing my story in the interest of helping others and I guess at the risk of appearing 'holier than thou'.  A year ago, I was not aware that it was possible, so maybe others didn't realize it also.  I'm not sure why that would offend you.



Great job Ace. Now the hardest part comes. And that is maintaining your great eating habits and exercise regime. 

Some are not able to do it.


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## pjrose (Mar 16, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> Technically the difference is .2 percentage points.



Whoops  
Can I get away with saying I wrote that to see if anyone was paying attention?     

Let's redo the question I might give my students: How much more is 22% than 20%?  
The difference is two percentage points, but 22% is ten percent more likely than 20%. 

(And the typical student, trying to hide his/her texting under the desk, gives me a blank expression and says "Huh?" )


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## artringwald (Mar 16, 2012)

Guess which state has the best Life Expectancy? Hawaii

Guess which state has the highest per capita SPAM consumption? Hawaii

I'm going to eat more SPAM so I'll live longer.


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## pjrose (Mar 16, 2012)

artringwald said:


> Guess which state has the best Life Expectancy? Hawaii
> 
> Guess which state has the highest per capita SPAM consumption? Hawaii
> 
> I'm going to eat more SPAM so I'll live longer.



Great example to use when I explain to my students why correlation is not causation!


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## Ridewithme38 (Mar 16, 2012)

artringwald said:


> Guess which state has the best Life Expectancy? Hawaii
> 
> Guess which state has the highest per capita SPAM consumption? Hawaii
> 
> I'm going to eat more SPAM so I'll live longer.



I think this more proves the importance of genetics over anything else, odds are if i went on an all spam diet i'd die of starvation...i just can't keep that stuff down...You've got to have SOME kind of genetic deformity to be born without taste buds and be able to eat that stuff


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## dioxide45 (Mar 16, 2012)

artringwald said:


> Guess which state has the best Life Expectancy? Hawaii
> 
> Guess which state has the highest per capita SPAM consumption? Hawaii
> 
> I'm going to eat more SPAM so I'll live longer.



Don't Canadians also have a longer life expectancy? They love donuts and eat more per capita than in the USA. They also love that artery clogging Poutine.


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## Ridewithme38 (Mar 16, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> Don't Canadians also have a longer life expectancy? They love donuts and eat more per capita than in the USA. They also love that artery clogging Poutine.



Genetics....


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## dioxide45 (Mar 16, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Genetics....



Maybe, maybe not. Canadians also tend to be more active than American's. So it may not all be genetics. There are any number of factors involved. The problem with the study is that it only looked at diet. We also don't know if they followed all 120,000 people for all that time, or if they only followed a certain number for a few years, then moved on to another set of people.


----------



## artringwald (Mar 17, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I think this more proves the importance of genetics over anything else, odds are if i went on an all spam diet i'd die of starvation...i just can't keep that stuff down...You've got to have SOME kind of genetic deformity to be born without taste buds and be able to eat that stuff



Hawaiians learned to like it by grilling it, putting it on top of rice, and wrapping it in seaweed. Yummmm.


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## glypnirsgirl (Mar 17, 2012)

pjrose said:


> Can you post recipes for your black bean enchiladas and your spaghetti with beans and garlic?



Sure --- the black beans enchiladas I have made so often, I know it by heart. I will post the link to the spaghetti recipe:

14 ounces enchilada sauce (I like Old El Paso or make my own by pureeing a can of diced tomatoes with peppers [1 serrano, 1 jalapeno], garlic and onions with cumin and a touch of oregano

12-15 tortillas (I prefer corn)
1 package firm tofu - dice
1 can black beans rinsed and drained [removes a lot of the sodium]
1 can corn drained

Pour about 1/3 of enchilada sauce in bottom of 9X13 baking dish
Mix tofu, 1/3 enchilada sauce, black beans, and corn
Fill and wrap a tortilla and place seam side down in baking dish, continue until the dish is filled (sometimes I have filling left that I use for lunch later). Top with the other 1/3 enchilada sauce. If I don't have enough sauce to thinly cover the enchiladas - I don't worry about having some exposed edges - those edges become crisp and I like that - I will use some salsa or piquante sauce to make moist. Bake at 325 for 30 or 45 minutes. Easy. 

I am on my kids' apple and I don't know how to open a new window. So I will add the link to the spaghetti in a moment.

elaine


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## glypnirsgirl (Mar 17, 2012)

This is the basic recipe for spaghetti with garlic and white beans  - to it, I add about 1 tablespoon oregano and 1/2 tablespoon thyme which I crush in my hand and add to the oil. I like a little less oil than the recipe calls for. This recipe is much better with the fresh basil - it gives it a little "pop" of flavor.

I use a different technique, I mince the garlic and warm it in the oil. I then add the dried herbs to the oil. 

Once the pasta is about 1 minute from "done," I drain it and put it back into the hot pot from whence it came. I add the ingredients and continue to cook until the pasta is done to taste. This helps the pasta absorb the flavor and makes a big difference in how the dish tastes.

elaine


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## pjrose (Mar 17, 2012)

glypnirsgirl said:


> Sure --- . . .
> I am on my kids' apple and I don't know how to open a new window. So I will add the link to the spaghetti in a moment.
> 
> elaine



thank you!  

And to do anything on a Mac, just explore the menus.  You really can't mess up.  If you want to open a window, windows are file related, so go to the file menu and presto, the first command is New Window!  (That's in any Mac software where it makes sense to open a new window - the apps are usually consistent.)


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## Tia (Mar 18, 2012)

crazy-
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...kets-contains-pink-slime/#.T2DKyIZ5Vew.mailto


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## ScoopKona (Mar 19, 2012)

Tia said:


> crazy-
> http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...kets-contains-pink-slime/#.T2DKyIZ5Vew.mailto



Not at all crazy. This has been going on for a LONG time.

We have a market where most don't care about quality. All they care about is low, low prices. Regulation is lax. And the media takes advertising money from the meat packers.

What did you expect?

I get all my beef from a ranch that's an afternoon's drive from my front door. I know the rancher. I know the people who do the butchering. Not only am I OK eating the beef rare, I'll happily eat it raw. We cannot get sick from a wholesome product. Who else is willing to eat some tartare or carpaccio from their usual supplier?

I'm into raw foods -- well, certain raw foods. You're not going to catch me eating chicken sashimi anytime soon. But I eat enough raw beef and raw fish that I am VERY careful about sourcing it.

But then again, I don't pay $1.19 per pound for ground beef, either.


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## Rose Pink (Mar 21, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Genetics....


All the more reason to moderate your lifestyle, including what you eat.  Take apolipoprotein E, for example.  About 15 to 23% of the caucasian population has the E4 isoform of the APOE gene.  

While past studies have indicated that light to moderate alcohol consumption (as in red wine) is linked to a lower mortality rate from ischemic heart disease, this trend may not hold true when analyzed for apoE genotypes. Studies looking at genotypes suggest that even moderate alcohol consumption in those with the e4 allele is associated with an increase in LDL and a decrease in HDL.  That's the opposite of what  you want to happen for heart health.  And is the opposite of what appeared in those without the e4 allele.  They also showed a different lipid metabolism.  It appears that the much touted Mediterranean Diet is not as beneficial for people with this genetic make-up.  They would be better off with a lower total fat intake and no alcohol than those with the e2 and e3 isoforms.

Those with the e2 isoform respond poorly to sucrose (increased serum triglycerides) and it would be wise if this subgroup moderated their carbohydrate intake to no more than 40% of total calories (but no less than 100g/day).

So, even though you can't change your genes, you can learn to work with them by adjusting your lifestyle.


----------



## ace2000 (Mar 21, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> All the more reason to moderate your lifestyle, including what you eat.  Take apolipoprotein E, for example.  About 15 to 23% of the caucasian population has the E4 isoform of the APOE gene.
> 
> While past studies have indicated that light to moderate alcohol consumption (as in red wine) is linked to a lower mortality rate from ischemic heart disease, this trend may not hold true when analyzed for apoE genotypes. Studies looking at genotypes suggest that even moderate alcohol consumption in those with the e4 allele is associated with an increase in LDL and a decrease in HDL.  That's the opposite of what  you want to happen for heart health.  And is the opposite of what appeared in those without the e4 allele.  They also showed a different lipid metabolism.  It appears that the much touted Mediterranean Diet is not as beneficial for people with this genetic make-up.  They would be better off with a lower total fat intake and no alcohol than those with the e2 and e3 isoforms.
> 
> ...


 

Yes, the point is that both make a difference.  I think the entire medical community agrees on that concept.


----------



## Rose Pink (Mar 21, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> Yes, the point is that both make a difference.  I think the entire medical community agrees on that concept.


Yes, we do. 

I was trying to point out that throwing one's hands up and stating, "it doesn't matter what I do, it's my genes" is a cop out.  What we do does matter, especially because of our genes.


----------



## Ridewithme38 (Mar 21, 2012)

I've got to admit, i love the title of this thread....I eat mostly pasta, because i'm cheap and eats easy to cook....But i'd LOVE to change to 5-10 meat based meals a week

A meat based diet sounds awesome...Bacon and Sausage in the morning, Roast Beef for lunch and Steak for dinner.....i may try this out!


----------



## ace2000 (Mar 21, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I've got to admit, i love the title of this thread....I eat mostly pasta, because i'm cheap and eats easy to cook....But i'd LOVE to change to 5-10 meat based meals a week
> 
> A meat based diet sounds awesome...Bacon and Sausage in the morning, Roast Beef for lunch and Steak for dinner.....i may try this out!


 
Ride, it wasn't nice knowing you, but it sure is nice getting rid of you.

only kidding...


----------



## Jaybee (Mar 21, 2012)

I'm loving this thread, and I went back and read the older one, too.  Thanks. 
I'm new to this. We've been drinking green smoothies daily since the first of the year. I've lost some weight, I have more energy, and I sleep better.  I'm trying to cut down on the red meat, and I can't even look at ground beef anymore, but I don't think we'll be able to go vegan.  
I'm getting my blood work done tomorrow, for the first time since December, so I'm curious about my cholesterol. It's always been high, and I've thought it was genetic. I exercise at Curves 3 times a week, and have for years, and I walk as much as I can.  I weigh 109 lbs., but my BP is still yo-yo-ing, in spite of the med I'm taking, which makes me feel dizzy, . (Maybe that's genetic, too?)...and my cholesterol has remained over 200.
I'm working on improving our diet, because of the health reasons, and because of what I've learned about the nutrients in greens, which I've always tried to avoid, and the environmental issues (which have never been a priority with me) 
No wonder the "Standard American Diet" turns out to be SAD.
The important thing to me is that I don't feel I'm sacrificing anything. I feel really good about it. I've never been good at depriving myself of anything.


----------



## Ridewithme38 (Mar 21, 2012)

Jaybee said:


> I'm loving this thread, and I went back and read the older one, too.  Thanks.
> I'm new to this. We've been drinking green smoothies daily since the first of the year. I've lost some weight, I have more energy, and I sleep better.  I'm trying to cut down on the red meat, and I can't even look at ground beef anymore, but I don't think we'll be able to go vegan.
> I'm getting my blood work done tomorrow, for the first time since December, so I'm curious about my cholesterol. It's always been high, and I've thought it was genetic. I exercise at Curves 3 times a week, and have for years, and I walk as much as I can.  I weigh 109 lbs., but my BP is still yo-yo-ing, in spite of the med I'm taking, which makes me feel dizzy, . (Maybe that's genetic, too?)...and my cholesterol has remained over 200.
> I'm working on improving our diet, because of the health reasons, and because of what I've learned about the nutrients in greens, which I've always tried to avoid, and the environmental issues (which have never been a priority with me)
> ...



I bet a huge slice of Chocolate cake sounds Awesome!  I'm going to make pudding right now!


----------



## Beefnot (Mar 21, 2012)

I would rather die at 60 than give up meat.  I would like to add more fish to my diet too.  Hats off to vegetarians.  No way I could do it; my body absolutely craves meat.


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## RX8 (Mar 21, 2012)

*Beef "not"?*



Beefnot said:


> I would rather die at 60 than give up meat.  I would like to add more fish to my diet too.  Hats off to vegetarians.  No way I could do it; my body absolutely craves meat.



Does your name have anything to do with that?????


----------



## scootr5 (Mar 21, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> I would rather die at 60 than give up meat.  I would like to add more fish to my diet too.  Hats off to vegetarians.  No way I could do it; my body absolutely craves meat.



That's probably the need for iron...


----------



## Beefnot (Mar 21, 2012)

RX8 said:


> Does your name have anything to do with that?????



Ha, iron-ically, no...


----------



## Jaybee (Mar 21, 2012)

I can eat chocolate cake...and chocolate pudding, too. Yummm!



Ridewithme38 said:


> I bet a huge slice of Chocolate cake sounds Awesome!  I'm going to make pudding right now!


----------



## hypnotiq (Apr 16, 2012)

I lost a bet, so Im on the 2nd day of a 5 day juice fast.

It has already confirmed one thing...I will never be a vegetarian or vegan!!!

I NEED MEAT!


----------



## Rose Pink (Apr 17, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> I lost a bet, so Im on the 2nd day of a 5 day juice fast.
> 
> It has already confirmed one thing...I will never be a vegetarian or vegan!!!
> 
> I NEED MEAT!


I don't understand the purpose of a juice fast.  I thought fasting meant nothing.  If you are drinking juice, it isn't really a fast.  And why juice?  You can get some vitamins/minerals/phytochemicals from juice but you also get alot of sugar calories.  A person can drink more calories than they eat.  Fluid calories don't have the same satiation factor as calories (energy) from solid foods.  That's one of the reasons we are so fat in this country.  We drink too much sugar whether it be from juices or soft drinks.

Anyway, sorry you got yourself into this losing end of a bet.  Are you willing to share what it was about?  And why such punishment for losing?


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## Beefnot (Apr 17, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> I don't understand the purpose of a juice fast.  I thought fasting meant nothing.  If you are drinking juice, it isn't really a fast.  And why juice?  You can get some vitamins/minerals/phytochemicals from juice but you also get alot of sugar calories.  A person can drink more calories than they eat.  Fluid calories don't have the same satiation factor as calories (energy) from solid foods.  That's one of the reasons we are so fat in this country.  We drink too much sugar whether it be from juices or soft drinks.
> 
> Anyway, sorry you got yourself into this losing end of a bet.  Are you willing to share what it was about?  And why such punishment for losing?



What you're saying may be all correct and academical and wutnot, but many people do lose weight from juice fasting and drinking whole juices in general.  Type II diabetes on the other hand, well that's another issue.


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## ace2000 (Apr 17, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> I don't understand the purpose of a juice fast.  I thought fasting meant nothing.  If you are drinking juice, it isn't really a fast.  And why juice?  You can get some vitamins/minerals/phytochemicals from juice but you also get alot of sugar calories.  A person can drink more calories than they eat.  Fluid calories don't have the same satiation factor as calories (energy) from solid foods.  That's one of the reasons we are so fat in this country.  We drink too much sugar whether it be from juices or soft drinks.


 
Rose, what you are saying is exactly what I heard in my course.  You are better off eating the real vegetable or fruit than the juice.  Not to say there is anything wrong with the juices, it's just that you're better off eating the full fiber and the substance.


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## geekette (Apr 18, 2012)

right, whole foods are always better,  but hydration is also important.  

I have great water and home and am thrilled to have great filtered water at work.  But at home, sometimes it is juice.  my xdh (diabetic, type 1) loved SunnyD as crash-deterrent.  I always knew it wasn't "really juice" but reading the label is SCARY!!!!  he said he didn't like regular OJ.  whatever ... 

I do try to get as close to nothing added as possible but it is always going to be more convenient to drink juice than buy/store/consume-before-perish fruit/vegetable.  I do make smoothies a lot so do get plenty of whole fibrous goodness.

here at work - I can easily consume juice, but peeling and eating an orange at the desk is not so cool.  Apples are easy, grapes are awesome. 

What about dehydrated fruits?  I like dried apricots but never seem to eat "real ones".  Does dehydration keep or destroy inherent goodness of a whole food?


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## Rose Pink (Apr 18, 2012)

geekette said:


> What about dehydrated fruits?  I like dried apricots but never seem to eat "real ones".  Does dehydration keep or destroy inherent goodness of a whole food?


Dried foods can be a wholesome, easily transportable food.  Do read labels, however, for added ingredients such as sulfates and sugars.  The label may not read "sugar" but that doesn't mean extra has not been added.  Manufacturers use many different names for sugar.

Dried fruit is already a concentrated form of sugar (mainly fructose).  It can be all too easy to overeat dried fruits.  I suggest you portion out what you are going to eat and then put the package away so you don't overconsume.  If I'm not paying attention, I can easily down a bag of dried mangoes or apricots.

I like to eat dried cherries with almonds.  Just pop one cherry and one almond in your mouth at the same time and chew them up together.  Nuts are notoriously high in calories so be sure to portion them out as well.

I like www.sparkpeople.com for keeping track of calories and other nutrients.  It is a free site and you can track your energy expenditure as well as your energy consumption.


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## geekette (Apr 18, 2012)

Yes, I was A Sparker some time ago.  Agree, great site with a lot of knowledge, tools, support.

As a Costco shopper, everything gets portioned.  little ziplocs of this n that are brought to the office.  absolutely easy to overeat when working.  for me, that's mindless eating.  

Dried pineapple was what came to mind when you mentioned added sugars.  I think I have never found it without the added sugar.


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## hypnotiq (Apr 18, 2012)

Not getting into the bet I lost 

Some call it a fast, others call it a detox. Not sure, dont care. 

You're not drinking juice that you get off the store shelves.

This is juice, you get from juicing the vegetables and fruits in a juicer. You couldnt possibly eat all the fruits and vegetables it takes to get through all the juices in a day. Veggie to fruit ratio is 70/80% veggie, 20/30% fruit.

I drink 5, one every 3 hours.  

For example, my breakfast was:
2 cucumber
1 bunch of Kale
4 celery stalks
2 small granny smith apples
1/2 lemon
1x2in slice of ginger

300cals.

Its actually pretty tasty.  After i finish this fast/detox, Ill probably incorporate having one of these once or twice a day, just because they are yummy.


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## Beefnot (Apr 18, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> Its actually pretty tasty.  After i finish this fast/detox, Ill probably incorporate having one of these once or twice a day, just because they are yummy.



You just said "yummy".


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## Ridewithme38 (Apr 18, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> Not getting into the bet I lost
> 
> Some call it a fast, others call it a detox. Not sure, dont care.
> 
> ...



Have you tried Cherry Pepsi? Its got Cherries in it, so its healthy and tastes much better then that sounds....I don't even know what "Kale" IS


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## geekette (Apr 18, 2012)

I am all for someone finding a good use for kale that doesn't involve display on a salad bar as Decor.


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## hypnotiq (Apr 18, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Have you tried Cherry Pepsi? Its got Cherries in it, so its healthy and tastes much better then that sounds....I don't even know what "Kale" IS



More of a Coke Zero Cherry fan myself.


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## neash (Apr 18, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> Not getting into the bet I lost
> 
> Some call it a fast, others call it a detox. Not sure, dont care.
> 
> ...



I actually have a similar juice every morning with breakfast ever since I got diagnosed with Lupus. I too add the ginger and lemon, I add only 1 piece of fruit, and more greens. I also add wheatgrass most days.


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## Beefnot (Apr 18, 2012)

neash said:


> I actually have a similar juice every morning with breakfast ever since I got diagnosed with Lupus. I too add the ginger and lemon, I add only 1 piece of fruit, and more greens. I also add *wheatgrass* most days.



Now that is not yummy.


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## neash (Apr 18, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> Now that is not yummy.


Actually I do not even notice it in there.
Yummy or not, if it helps keep my Lupus in remission I am going to stick with it


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## spencersmama (Apr 18, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> This is juice, you get from juicing the vegetables and fruits in a juicer. You couldnt possibly eat all the fruits and vegetables it takes to get through all the juices in a day. Veggie to fruit ratio is 70/80% veggie, 20/30% fruit.
> 
> I drink 5, one every 3 hours.
> 
> ...



I know people who swear by a similar detox every few months.  

Does the juicer take the fiber out of the veggies or keep it in?


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## optimist (Apr 18, 2012)

I heard about this "juice" fast on a documentary called "fat, sick and nearly dead" which I saw on instant watch on Netflix. 
 It is about an Australian guy who is overweight and suffers from an auto immune disease which means he has to take large doses of prednisone.  He decides to go on a "juice" fast for sixty days while he travels through the States and interviews people about their diet. I won't give away the ending but it was an extremely entertaining and enlightening film.  Highly recommended.


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## Rose Pink (Apr 18, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> Not getting into the bet I lost


At least tell us what you would have received if you'd won the bet.


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