# First case of COVID in our subdivision



## rapmarks (Nov 28, 2020)

We felt safe in our community of 1000 homes, but it finally happened. The person who tested positive was one who argued with residents all this time that she wasn’t wearing a mask, she wasn’t changing her life style, she wasn’t living in fear.  I knew she had a house cleaning business, but I didn’t realize she led the large water aerobics group too.  I haven’t been doing anything but take my husband to medical appointments so we are safe so far.  Had the test last Monday and we’re negative.  Hoping others weren’t infected, lots of vulnerable people here.


----------



## Carron (Nov 28, 2020)

How is it going with your husband?


----------



## DaveNV (Nov 28, 2020)

Sorry to hear about this, but honestly, I'm not surprised.  People who put themselves at risk are more likely to contract Covid. That woman's activity is exactly how it happens.  My nephew was one of the naysayers as well, until he got it.  He is younger (30s), quite active, and very healthy.  He still spent several weeks in and out of the hospital. He recovered, but his attitude has been greatly changed. You might say it even humbled him a little. He is now quite vocal about being safer.  His wife and children are his biggest priorities now.

Hope everyone in your area stays safe and healthy.

Dave


----------



## rapmarks (Nov 28, 2020)

Carron said:


> How is it going with your husband?


His humerus is still healing, we are doing therapy three times a week.  There is some slippage mentally. I haven’t joined any activities as I don’t want to leave him alone


----------



## Cornell (Nov 28, 2020)

rapmarks said:


> We felt safe in our community of 1000 homes, but it finally happened. The person who tested positive was one who argued with residents all this time that she wasn’t wearing a mask, she wasn’t changing her life style, she wasn’t living in fear.  I knew she had a house cleaning business, but I didn’t realize she led the large water aerobics group too.  I haven’t been doing anything but take my husband to medical appointments so we are safe so far.  Had the test last Monday and we’re negative.  Hoping others weren’t infected, lots of vulnerable people here.


How do you know in your 1000 home community that this is the first person who has Covid?


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Nov 28, 2020)

Our neighbors at our previous home (a townhome that we converted to a rental property back in 2008 because we couldn’t sell it during the Great Recession), with whom we still keep in touch, have both tested positive this week. 

He hasn’t really been employing preventative measures, going to bars and restaurants quite often. I feel bad for her as she is a cancer survivor and is more middle of the road in her views (like me). She actually tested positive before he did since she started showing symptoms first. He is 67 and she is 58. 

My son just rented our adjacent townhome with two of his friends, one of which is taking a biologic for Crone’s disease and is immune-compromised as a result, so they are not exactly happy about living right next to a couple who are both COVID-19 positive now. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Patri (Nov 28, 2020)

Cornell said:


> How do you know in your 1000 home community that this is the first person who has Covid?


True. My son and his wife and her mom got it. We didn't blab it all around the neighborhood. Mild cases for all. My DH got it in his nursing home. There is an outbreak there. Mostly mild cases for everyone. DH is asymptomatic. There are probably many more positive tests than you will ever hear about. Never consider yourself safe. Just be smart for yourself.


----------



## Sugarcubesea (Nov 28, 2020)

Patri said:


> True. My son and his wife and her mom got it. We didn't blab it all around the neighborhood. Mild cases for all. My DH got it in his nursing home. There is an outbreak there. Mostly mild cases for everyone. DH is asymptomatic. There are probably many more positive tests than you will ever hear about. Never consider yourself safe. Just be smart for yourself.



I agree, I think a lot of folks are not going to broadcast their COVID-19.  My cousin got it, since he is already working from home, he did not broadcast to anyone except immediate family and since it was a mild case, he only had one day where he slept all day, he is just moving forward and self isolating for 14 days and will then get re-tested.


----------



## geekette (Nov 28, 2020)

Were I to test positive, I would tell only those with a need to know.    I don't generally interact closely with my neighbors, and now that it is winter, it's even less.   They have not known about previous medical or physical issues I've had, either, and I don't notify them if there has been a death in my family, etc.   If you were in a room with me or within 6 feet of me outside, I'll be phoning you directly and I would expect same urgent courtesy in return.


----------



## rapmarks (Nov 28, 2020)

Cornell said:


> How do you know in your 1000 home community that this is the first person who has Covid?


Contact tracing. 
And nosy neighbors
In this case the woman  was leading water aerobics   The manager has shut down water aerobics in all the pools.  Email blast with no names but participants were asked to test and report to office.  Someone said five have it now,  we are in Florida and don’t really have winter. 
95 per cent older retired people who are active in the community.  If it spreads we will have to shut down our golf course and restaurant but the expenses with continue so it is in everyone’s interest to keep the community safe.   Someone in community that never uses any facilities could have it and no one would know


----------



## Cornell (Nov 28, 2020)

Contact tracing doesn't work that way.

Based on the judgmental comments I read towards people that get sick, I don't blame anyone for not revealing a positive diagnosis to anyone.  Who needs that kind of grief on top of being sick?


----------



## TravelTime (Nov 28, 2020)

In a community of 1000 homes, I suspect you have had many cases of Covid that were either not reported or assymptomatic so the people did not know they had it.


----------



## SueDonJ (Nov 28, 2020)

We're in three different residential over-55 HOA's where all clubs are closed and social calendars are severely trimmed down to only outdoor activities. We know from notices from the managers that one hasn't yet had a positive case while another has had two and the third has had one, with all three positive cases requiring hospitalizations. No names were given in the notices but these neighbors "outed" themselves because they were worried about possibly spreading it unknowingly, and they wanted to contribute to contact tracing efforts. Nobody's judged them negatively; everybody has been concerned for their health and making sure that their spouses have everything they need. I'm not sure what judgmental comments would/could be lobbed against them anyway because some in these communities are in the highest-risk group so pretty much everyone has been following mask and social distancing rules, limiting errands to necessities and health/wellness appointments. Their misfortune has actually driven home for the rest of us just how easy it is to contract the virus, which is why you see all the exercise groups spaced apart more than is suggested.

Judgmental comments about people who continue to ignore the real risks and endanger others are a whole 'nother thing.


----------



## SueDonJ (Nov 28, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> In a community of 1000 homes, I suspect you have had many cases of Covid that were either not reported or assymptomatic so the people did not know they had it.



The asymptomatic nature of COVID-19 spread is probably the most terrifying of all its characteristics, probably the most important factor that justifies masking, social distancing, etc. But again, judgmental comments wouldn't be lobbed unless all those suggestions to contain the spread are being blatantly ignored.


----------



## rapmarks (Nov 28, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> In a community of 1000 homes, I suspect you have had many cases of Covid that were either not reported or assymptomatic so the people did not know they had it.


Wouldn’t it have spread if they had it and  are a symptomatic. The city reports the numbers daily. About 1/3 of community stays  year round and they were concerned when the seasonal people started arriving. We were asked to self quarantine. Only activities are outdoor except for the bar.  I peeked in and was shocked. Huge groups gathered around two tables. They feel they are all safe because they isolated from everyone else. Since March. Of course if one gets it it is going to be all over. 
the woman who got  it has a cleaning business. She cleans for my next door neighbor who has congestive heart failure. I hated to hear the cleaning lady boasting that she wasn’t afraid like the rest of us, wasn’t going to wear a mask, stay home or change anything.


----------



## jmhpsu93 (Nov 28, 2020)

The CDC estimated that there may as many as 8 times the number of positive cases as reported.  My company chief medical officer (yes, we have one...) was guessing 5-6 times when he was discussing herd immunity.  Your 1,000 homes community has had it for some time.

EDIT TO ADD:  Doesn't excuse selfish reckless behavior.


----------



## Ken555 (Nov 28, 2020)

jmhpsu93 said:


> The CDC estimated that there may as many as 8 times the number of positive cases as reported. My company chief medical officer (yes, we have one...) was guessing 5-6 times when he was discussing herd immunity. Your 1,000 homes community has had it for some time.
> 
> EDIT TO ADD: Doesn't excuse selfish reckless behavior.



Some were predicting 10x, but we knew it was definitely more than the reported, tested, numbers. We should all simply act as if everyone we are in contact with is positive, with notable exceptions (for instance, I know a small extended family that decided to isolate for two weeks prior to Thanksgiving so they could meet in person, and even then they met outside).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## am1 (Nov 28, 2020)

I think covid positives should be made public to the neighbours and where they work. Here the health agency shows up in hazmat suits possibly daily but nothing official.


----------



## Cornell (Nov 28, 2020)

am1 said:


> I think covid positives should be made public to the neighbours and where they work. Here the health agency shows up in hazmat suits possibly daily but nothing official.


Perhaps published ? Or posted on the internet?


----------



## chellej (Nov 28, 2020)

am1 said:


> I think covid positives should be made public to the neighbours and where they work. Here the health agency shows up in hazmat suits possibly daily but nothing official.


  That would definitely violate HIPPA laws.  The best thing to prevent covid is to protect yourself.  If you don't go to public places, minimize time in stores when you have to go, wear masks and wash your hands then it shouldn't matter what anyone else does


----------



## geekette (Nov 28, 2020)

am1 said:


> I think covid positives should be made public to the neighbours and where they work. Here the health agency shows up in hazmat suits possibly daily but nothing official.


Good luck with that.  Even if you knew where the Positives were, that doesn't give you a clear path through the human slalom.   Those not marked with the big "P" could be asymptomatic or simply have no simple access to testing.  Test could still be outstanding.    Far more efficient to assume that everybody is infected because you will never know for sure, even if every known positive wore that red P.

Besides, we have privacy laws.  You want to tell someone your business, go for it.  Most of us that are not public figures or in a situation where we would endanger coworkers have no compelling reason to declare ourselves positive publicly.   Remote worker that lives alone and gets grocery delivery can simply wait it out at home.   What's it to you if Steve down the street is sick?   Were you planning on licking his mailbox or hanging out in his kitchen?  Why should his boss care so long as his assignments come in on time?


----------



## rapmarks (Nov 28, 2020)

remember when this all started and we were told shelter in place for two weeks and we will stop the spread.  Everybody did and it went on and on.
our club sold groceries and meals. Everything by phone and on our accounts. No human contact for weeks. then Slowly people left to go north for the summer. The people who were left felt safe with each other.  No family visits, no company.  The community is sure treating this case of covid seriously. They have asked all those who attended water aerobics to contact the office to contact trace.


----------



## am1 (Nov 29, 2020)

Sadly its your funeral or your loved ones or people you come in contact with.  Check Hippa laws at the door.  Not licking anyones mailbox but would keep an eye on them if they need supplies or decide to go out.


----------



## geekette (Nov 29, 2020)

am1 said:


> Sadly its your funeral or your loved ones or people you come in contact with.  Check Hippa laws at the door.  Not licking anyones mailbox but would keep an eye on them if they need supplies or decide to go out.


Not my funeral, I am neither a getter nor a spreader, no matter who tells me they test positive.  I am mostly always all by myself, just me n my germs.   I assume there are a lot of infected people out there that don't know they are positive.   I have no compelling reason to mix with people just yet.   Wasn't any big deal to Thanksgiving in my own home by myself.  

"Keep an eye on them" is why I wouldn't be telling anyone my pos status.   I don't mind isolating, I am a great loner, but I can do without surveillance.    Not interested in being checked up on.   If I go out, consider that it might be to seek medical help.  I'd not take kindly to someone stopping me in my driveway to interrogate me.


----------



## am1 (Nov 29, 2020)

geekette said:


> Not my funeral, I am neither a getter nor a spreader, no matter who tells me they test positive.  I am mostly always all by myself, just me n my germs.   I assume there are a lot of infected people out there that don't know they are positive.   I have no compelling reason to mix with people just yet.   Wasn't any big deal to Thanksgiving in my own home by myself.
> 
> "Keep an eye on them" is why I wouldn't be telling anyone my pos status.   I don't mind isolating, I am a great loner, but I can do without surveillance.    Not interested in being checked up on.   If I go out, consider that it might be to seek medical help.  I'd not take kindly to someone stopping me in my driveway to interrogate me.



Great, you are N of one then.  I am sure a lot of people think they are like you but they keep spreading the cases.


----------



## geist1223 (Nov 29, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Perhaps published ? Or posted on the internet?



How about the local nightly news with photographs and addresses.


----------



## Patri (Nov 29, 2020)

am1 said:


> Great, you are N of one then.  I am sure a lot of people think they are like you but they keep spreading the cases.


When you are positive, how are you going to spread the news? (Some people following all of the guidelines have still gotten Covid.)


----------



## Patri (Nov 29, 2020)

response self-reproduced


----------



## LMD (Nov 29, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Contact tracing doesn't work that way.
> 
> Based on the judgmental comments I read towards people that get sick, I don't blame anyone for not revealing a positive diagnosis to anyone.  Who needs that kind of grief on top of being sick?


However if someone who is actively interacting with other members  of the community contracts COVID they most certainly should let the rest of the community know...... close contact with others leading an aerobics class, in other peoples homes with the house cleaning business.  Why....because it is the RIGHT thing to do!


----------



## beejaybeeohio (Nov 29, 2020)

Perhaps a large *C* posted on the front door of Covid-infected people? When my grandson (21 & Type 1) contracted the virus in June, my DD told me that there was a "C" put on her front door by her SC Health Dep't. I fell for her tale since I've been called Gullible's Traveler many a time. He had a mild case with just a fever for a little over 24 hours, exhaustion and a loss of taste. No one else in the household contracted it.


----------



## bluehende (Nov 29, 2020)

beejaybeeohio said:


> Perhaps a large *C* posted on the front door of Covid-infected people? When my grandson (21 & Type 1) contracted the virus in June, my DD told me that there was a "C" put on her front door by her SC Health Dep't. I fell for her tale since I've been called Gullible's Traveler many a time. He had a mild case with just a fever for a little over 24 hours, exhaustion and a loss of taste. No one else in the household contracted it.


Do you realize that the info you seem to make fun of in your first few sentences is the exact reason you can type that last sentence?


----------



## rapmarks (Nov 29, 2020)

I don’t know many neighbors up north, but I was told about people who had Covid. 15 people this fall actually in a small neighborhood but the neighborhood is mostly working people, more exposure than the seniors in Florida 
The kids are in person school but so far only high school has had to temporarily go virtual 
My oldest grandson,  age 11, was really upset with the high school kids who got Rona and shut down the bowling league


----------



## rapmarks (Nov 29, 2020)

LMD said:


> However if someone who is actively interacting with other members  of the community contracts COVID they most certainly should let the rest of the community know...... close contact with others leading an aerobics class, in other peoples homes with the house cleaning business.  Why....because it is the RIGHT thing to do!


To her credit she put it out there when she knew she was exposed and notified the office when confirmed. The office is trying to contact trace all the participants


----------



## sue1947 (Nov 29, 2020)

I live in a similar sized, over-55 community.  We had our second (that I know of) case last week.  It is a cautionary tale for all of us who are yearning to get out and travel more.  The resident caught it from an out of town relative who came for a visit.  The relative didn't know they had it and 'felt' it was safe to travel to our community because we mostly are following the recommendations.  He felt safe, and never gave serious thought to whether he was a carrier.   They each let down their guards because they 'felt' safe.   The resident only had contact with a neighbor and that's how we learned of it.  Both are quarantining and it will likely be contained to those 2 households. 
 I am sure the relative feels horrible to have infected their older relative.   However, given the amount of information and warnings against traveling, given the information about the large number of suspected asymptomatics, I have zero sympathy.   The decision to travel for a visit, etc, was all based on how safe the visitor felt without thinking through the potential consequences for others.  It's past time for us to stop acting based on feelings and start thinking instead.


----------



## rapmarks (Nov 29, 2020)

the problem is that everyone thinks certain people are safe.  but you don't now who the other person has been near.


----------



## Patri (Nov 29, 2020)

sue1947 said:


> The decision to travel for a visit, etc, was all based on how safe the visitor felt without thinking through the potential consequences for others.  It's past time for us to stop acting based on feelings and start thinking instead.


Traveling has nothing to do with this. It could just as well have been the neighbor next door. The virus doesn't jump on someone when they cross a state line. This boils down to what safety practices anyone has been following.


----------



## TravelTime (Nov 29, 2020)

am1 said:


> I think covid positives should be made public to the neighbours and where they work. Here the health agency shows up in hazmat suits possibly daily but nothing official.



Maybe people who test positive to Covid should wear a scarlet C on their foreheads.


----------



## SueDonJ (Nov 29, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> Maybe people who test positive to Covid should wear a scarlet C on their foreheads.



Maybe everybody could stop ridiculously worrying about reasonable pandemic restrictions taking away their civil liberties unduly. Maybe instead everybody should follow the simple-enough guidelines so that we won't have to sarcastically suggest that the ones who aren't need to carve letters into their foreheads or post notices on their front doors or have their names/addresses published in newspaper and on TV, all ridiculously exaggerated measures except for the fact that they'd let the rest of us know who's behaving selfishly.

<eyeroll>


----------



## WinniWoman (Nov 29, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> Maybe everybody could stop ridiculously worrying about reasonable pandemic restrictions taking away their civil liberties unduly. Maybe instead everybody should follow the simple-enough guidelines so that we won't have to sarcastically suggest that the ones who aren't need to carve letters into their foreheads or post notices on their front doors or have their names/addresses published in newspaper and on TV, all ridiculously exaggerated measures except for the fact that they'd let the rest of us know who's behaving selfishly.
> 
> <eyeroll>




I contend that the people who are selfish are the ones that would agree with the restrictions to the freedoms of others because of their own fears. Destroy people's businesses, cause undue harm to others in terms of suicides, mental health issues like depression, loss of education, etc.  I am honestly so sick of hearing about the selfishness of people that only want to exercise their God given rights like breathing fresh air and reasonably safe social interaction while it is really THEY who are the selfish ones.

Ok. Now I know I will be crucified o TUG for saying so to a moderator.I couldn't help myself.


----------



## SueDonJ (Nov 29, 2020)

WinniWoman said:


> I contend that the people who are selfish are the ones that would agree with the restrictions to the freedoms of others because of their own fears. Destroy people's businesses, cause undue harm to others in terms of suicides, mental health issues like depression, loss of education, etc.  I am honestly so sick of hearing about the selfishness of people that only want to exercise their God given rights like breathing fresh air and reasonably safe social interaction while it is really THEY who are the selfish ones.
> 
> Ok. Now I know I will be crucified o TUG for saying so to a moderator.I couldn't help myself.



FYI, when I post as a moderator I say so. As far as I'm concerned anybody can disagree with any of my opinions that have absolutely nothing to do with moderating.

If you're following the reasonable suggestions to wear a mask and practice social distancing when it's warranted, then you're not one of the selfish people who need the C carved into their foreheads (which again, was a sarcastic reaction and *not* my idea.)

It's honestly like we're living in two different realities! None of us can deny that there are still far too many people in this country who choose to believe that COVID-19 doesn't even exist, or that it's not as serious a disease as the numbers show, or that only elderly and people with compromised health conditions are at risk, or that any attempt at all to restrict its spread are reason to rant and rave ridiculously about civil liberties being taken away unduly. *Those people,* the ones who are completely denying the reality, are the ones I'm talking about. If you're not doing those things, you shouldn't feel as though I'm targeting you.

And if you think I'm not seriously concerned about the mental health issues that co-exist with COVID-19, you obviously haven't read the posts where I talk about the mental health issues that the caregivers I know are suffering. All three nurses in my family are at the point where they're saying outright that they, "hate the public." My son the nursing home administrator is dealing daily with residents/staff becoming ill despite pleading with all employees/visitors and vendors to please follow all the precautions while at the same time he has the responsibility of dealing with loved ones who are understandably frustrated, and every day he has to fight the depression that all those in his position are feeling. None of their reactions are normal for those serving in their medical fields, and none of it is familiar to them or what they want to be feeling. When you start advocating for medical workers to be believed at face value when they talk about what they're seeing, and given a reprieve when they reach the end of their ropes, then I'll believe that you're as concerned with their mental health as you are those who don't want to follow stay-home orders so the virus can be finally contained. The sooner *that* happens, the better off we'll *all* be.


----------



## wackymother (Nov 29, 2020)

I'm younger than many people on TUG, but I still remember when my classmates in school had measles and were quarantined. Yes, the department of health would literally come and put a big bold sign on the door that said QUARANTINE. The person with measles and the family could not leave their house until the department of health gave the all-clear. The family would have food and other items delivered or brought over and left at the door by friends. Doesn't anyone else remember this? 

No one thought less of that family that they were ill or had been exposed. I just remember feeling sorry for them that they were sick, and my parents and grandmother offering to help by bringing homework, food, medicine, and so on. 

So a big sign that says QUARANTINE does not seem so terrible to me. Let's get this disease under control.


----------



## bluehende (Nov 29, 2020)

WinniWoman said:


> I contend that the people who are selfish are the ones that would agree with the restrictions to the freedoms of others because of their own fears. Destroy people's businesses, cause undue harm to others in terms of suicides, mental health issues like depression, loss of education, etc.  I am honestly so sick of hearing about the selfishness of people that only want to exercise their God given rights like breathing fresh air and reasonably safe social interaction while it is really THEY who are the selfish ones.
> 
> Ok. Now I know I will be crucified o TUG for saying so to a moderator.I couldn't help myself.


And others are getting sick of hearing how their God given rights and freedoms includes endangering others.  Or are all of the families of the 273000 dead  just not that important.


----------



## Ken555 (Nov 29, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> And if you think I'm not seriously concerned about the mental health issues that co-exist with COVID-19, you obviously haven't read the posts where I talk about the mental health issues that the caregivers I know are suffering. All three nurses in my family are at the point where they're saying outright that they, "hate the public." My son the nursing home administrator is dealing daily with residents/staff becoming ill despite pleading with all employees/visitors and vendors to please follow all the precautions while at the same time he has the responsibility of dealing with loved ones who are understandably frustrated, and every day he has to fight the depression that all those in his position are feeling. None of their reactions are normal for those serving in their medical fields, and none of it is familiar to them or what they want to be feeling. When you start advocating for medical workers to be believed at face value when they talk about what they're seeing, and given a reprieve when they reach the end of their ropes, then I'll believe that you're as concerned with their mental health as you are those who don't want to follow stay-home orders so the virus can be finally contained. The sooner *that* happens, the better off we'll *all* be.



Well said.


----------



## Cornell (Nov 29, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> It's honestly like we're living in two different realities!


could not agree more!


----------



## Luanne (Nov 29, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> It's honestly like we're living in two different realities!


And we all know who is in which camp.


----------



## Ken555 (Nov 29, 2020)

Luanne said:


> And we all know who is in which camp.



And why. TUG is really a microcosm of America.


----------



## rapmarks (Nov 29, 2020)

My aunt was diagnosed with tuberculosis in her twenties and was made to go to a sanitarium for three years a good 35 miles away at a time when the family didn’t have a car.  
anyone else live through the polio epidemic. My other aunt caught that.
And last night I watched The Chicago 7 and the scene were they drew birthdays for the draft really brought back bad memories 
So wearing a mask seems a really small price to pay


----------



## slip (Nov 29, 2020)

And all these posts going back and forth will change nothing but they continue.


----------



## SueDonJ (Nov 29, 2020)

slip said:


> And all these posts going back and forth will change nothing but they continue.



It'll be the saddest of days when all hope is abandoned. I'm not there yet.


----------



## slip (Nov 29, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> It'll be the saddest of days when all hope is abandoned. I'm not there yet.



Go back and read all the COVID threads, the posts from either side have changed nothing but we are all free to dream.


----------



## Cornell (Nov 29, 2020)

What feels like an alternate reality to me is when I go on social media and see all of my friends kids going to school.  And my daughter cannot and her entire class will not have a senior year.  Yeah, that is hard for me to process.

Last spring was a different deal when all the nation's kids were "in it together".  Now, totally different story.  Why can some kids be back in school and others not?  I can't rationalize that. 

And last year's kids lost ceremonial things.  This year they are losing an education PLUS everything else.


----------



## Brett (Nov 29, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> And why. TUG is really a microcosm of America.



maybe so .........   
parallel alternate realities


----------



## turkel (Nov 29, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> It's honestly like we're living in two different realities! None of us can deny that there are still far too many people in this country who choose to believe that COVID-19 doesn't even exist, or that it's not as serious a disease as the numbers show, or that only elderly and people with compromised health conditions are at risk, or that any attempt at all to restrict its spread are reason to rant and rave ridiculously about civil liberties being taken away unduly. *Those people,* the ones who are completely denying the reality, are the ones I'm talking about. If you're not doing those things, you shouldn't feel as though I'm targeting you.


We definitely live in 2 different realities. Where are these people that deny Covid exists? That deny people die?

I mean this in all seriousness. People argue about wearing masks over and over like a broken record but where is the argument ? Where I live in California a person can’t go “I N” anywhere without one. So why the constant posturing and beating the drum? Are you trying to prove your superior humanity through indignation and bashing others?

Please help me understand


----------



## beejaybeeohio (Nov 29, 2020)

bluehende said:


> Do you realize that the info you seem to make fun of in your first few sentences is the exact reason you can type that last sentence?


Tongue-in-cheek and a sense of irony is all I meant!



TravelTime said:


> Maybe people who test positive to Covid should wear a scarlet C on their foreheads.


(Warning- this response is in jest!)
Permanent Tattoo that can be superimposed with an X tattoo after vaccine, negative test or recovery! 

No offense meant to any one here.  Humor is a great antidote to the horrific #s daily. Contact tracing has been a measure I've always been for, but the reality of doing so accurately is a big problem.


----------



## Cornell (Nov 29, 2020)

turkel said:


> We definitely live in 2 different realities. Where are these people that deny Covid exists? That deny people die?
> 
> I mean this in all seriousness. People argue about wearing masks over and over like a broken record but where is the argument ? Where I live in California a person can’t go “I N” anywhere without one. So why the constant posturing and beating the drum? Are you trying to prove your superior humanity through indignation and bashing others?
> 
> Please help me understand


This is it exactly - I don't know a single Covid denier.  I can't go anywhere either without a mask.


----------



## Snazzylass (Nov 29, 2020)

Cornell said:


> What feels like an alternate reality to me is when I go on social media and see all of my friends kids going to school.  And my daughter cannot and her entire class will not have a senior year.  Yeah, that is hard for me to process.
> 
> Last spring was a different deal when all the nation's kids were "in it together".  Now, totally different story.  Why can some kids be back in school and others not?  I can't rationalize that.
> 
> And last year's kids lost ceremonial things.  This year they are losing an education PLUS everything else.


I can't even imagine. As I working mom, I never considered "homeschooling." And, yet, here we are. (Not me, thank God! I get to sit this one out.) My heart goes out to all working parents and kids and teachers right now. It just ain't right.

As a kid, my own education had its ups and downs. I can really empathize with kids. It sucks...but this, too, shall pass. I pray they learn how truly resilient they can be.


----------



## Snazzylass (Nov 29, 2020)

Cornell said:


> This is it exactly - I don't know a single Covid denier.  I can't go anywhere either without a mask.


On the other hand, I know a handful of people who had to get tested and quarantine due to being told they had been in contact with someone who tested positive. All endured the quarantine. None tested positive. No symptoms.


----------



## Snazzylass (Nov 29, 2020)

rapmarks said:


> We felt safe in our community of 1000 homes, but it finally happened. The person who tested positive was one who argued with residents all this time that she wasn’t wearing a mask, she wasn’t changing her life style, she wasn’t living in fear.  I knew she had a house cleaning business, but I didn’t realize she led the large water aerobics group too.  I haven’t been doing anything but take my husband to medical appointments so we are safe so far.  Had the test last Monday and we’re negative.  Hoping others weren’t infected, lots of vulnerable people here.


Glad to hear your tests were negative. Did the person who tested positive get sick? I've read of people testing positive and not getting sick.

What I don't understand about your report is why the water aerobics class was large? Every one has a choice to limit their exposure somewhat. We are limiting ourselves to a max of 10 in our water aerobics which allows plenty of space in the pool. I opted out of a group hike because of the size.

And, why would someone allow someone in their home without a mask? If she has a cleaning business, it's probably because she needs the money. There are many questions. I would think her customers would insist or decline her services, but maybe they felt comfortable. I could see that.

I live in a 55+ community. Except for our pool and new pickle ball courts, no activities. Our clubhouse and mini gym are closed. No CV19 actual cases reported. I think there are about 500 homes. One friend was told she was exposed. So, she got tested and quarantined. Test was negative. Never developed any symptoms. 

My sister was just tested because she hugged a 20 yo who later tested positive. She said the thinking is that there needs to be extended exposure, say 15 minutes or more. This makes sense to me.


----------



## Cornell (Nov 29, 2020)

I read a lot of smug moral superiority in many of these posts that people who have Covid somehow didn't do the "right" things or it could have been prevented.

Covid came into my house because my daughter works at an car dealership.  She's a gopher there.  Runs around while she's there dealing with many customers each day.  She runs service records back and forth, fetches loaner cars, processes paperwork.  Masks are required. She washes her hands. 

  Most likely she got Covid there. Hard to imagine where else she could have gotten it as she does't go to school (not allowed!) nor are sports allowed. You see - -she is doing one of of those jobs that people can't do from home.  She's out in the public eye.  Not everyone can participate in society behind a keyboard. 

And when she got Covid, I made the decision as her mother that I wasn't going to lock her in her room for 10-14 days while I delivered her meals to her bedroom.  Sorry - but I don't roll that way as a mom.  I"m healthy & 52.  Very very minimal chance that something would happen to me if I got Covid.  And , yes, I got it.  I'm not complaining about it.  Sure, it hasn't been pleasant but I have stayed-put and feel confident that I haven't spread it to anyone in the community. 

Things happen.  People get sick.


----------



## rapmarks (Nov 29, 2020)

I don’t know how large the water aerobics class was. They used to have over forty but I have absolutely no idea how many at this time.
our bar is open and our golf course opened on October 27. No shot gun starts and no more than one foursome in pro shop at a time. They set up a grill at the turn. What used to be monthly luncheons after golf are now brown bags When I left in June the pools were closed and tennis at own risk. No tennis matches against other community teams. No outside players on golf course. Only residents in restaurant. They did have bocce but eight teams instead of 14, masks required. Wii bowling canceled 
I have been so busy with my husband that I haven’t participated in anything.
while the community has 1000  homes probably only 350 were occupied over the summer. I would guess 150 to 200  Do absolutely nothing in the community. They either work or are very elderly or were never interested,


----------



## Ken555 (Nov 29, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I read a lot of smug moral superiority in many of these posts that people who have Covid somehow didn't do the "right" things or it could have been prevented.



Covid absolutely could have been prevented and definitely mitigated from the utter disaster it is now in America. We’ve been posting about this very issue since early this year. Other countries kept their spread and deaths low while we completely failed.

This is a plain simple fact. 

It has nothing to do with moral superiority.

I’m sorry you and your daughter had Covid, and I’m glad it didn’t become a life threatening issue for you. Sadly, that’s not the same outcome for all.


----------



## LMD (Nov 30, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Covid absolutely could have been prevented and definitely mitigated from the utter disaster it is now in America. We’ve been posting about this very issue since early this year. Other countries kept their spread and deaths low while we completely failed.
> 
> This is a plain simple fact.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. The US as a nation has utterly failed compared with other countries. 
9 months into this pandemic people should know when and how to clean their hands , how to properly handle and wear a mask. From my observation, simple skills like this are STILL lacking.  I have no doubt as to why this is still rapidly spreading.  Sad that it is within our control yet many choose NOT  to be part of the solution!


----------



## rapmarks (Nov 30, 2020)

Cornell so sorry your daughter has the virus. 
I think the only stopping it now is through a vaccine. somewhere we took the wrong path in this country


----------



## Brett (Nov 30, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Covid absolutely could have been prevented and definitely mitigated from the utter disaster it is now in America. We’ve been posting about this very issue since early this year. Other countries kept their spread and deaths low while we completely failed.
> 
> This is a plain simple fact.
> 
> ...



I agree that covid has nothing to do with moral superiority
I am hoping the vaccines prove effective and enough people take them


----------



## Cornell (Nov 30, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Covid absolutely could have been prevented and definitely mitigated from the utter disaster it is now in America. We’ve been posting about this very issue since early this year. Other countries kept their spread and deaths low while we completely failed.
> 
> This is a plain simple fact.
> 
> ...


But you are indirectly scolding someone for going out to purchase chocolates when they can be ordered online.  You are participating in Black Friday deals. 

What about the people that have to deliver those chocolates?  Or those that have to manufacturer these things?  Why is it ok to put THEM in harm's way?  All of the people involved in the procurement of these products could be asymptotic and spreading Covid.  How is THAT ok?


----------



## WinniWoman (Nov 30, 2020)

turkel said:


> We definitely live in 2 different realities. Where are these people that deny Covid exists? That deny people die?
> 
> I mean this in all seriousness. People argue about wearing masks over and over like a broken record but where is the argument ? Where I live in California a person can’t go “I N” anywhere without one. So why the constant posturing and beating the drum? Are you trying to prove your superior humanity through indignation and bashing others?
> 
> Please help me understand


 
Because every time a spike in cases is reported the virtue signalers comment how it’s because people aren’t wearing masks. These people want to blame someone. They want a sense of control. In their minds there is no other explanation. They are doing their part but others are not because they are selfish.

But back in May some epidemiologists did say we will all be exposed to the virus eventually anyway.

Hence the mask arguments begin.


----------



## Jan M. (Nov 30, 2020)

wackymother said:


> I'm younger than many people on TUG, but I still remember when my classmates in school had measles and were quarantined. Yes, the dplacedepartment of health would literally come and put a big bold sign on the door that said QUARANTINE. The person with measles and the family could not leave their house until the department of health gave the all-clear. The family would have food and other items delivered or brought over and left at the door by friends. Doesn't anyone else remember this?
> 
> No one thought less of that family that they were ill or had been exposed. I just remember feeling sorry for them that they were sick, my parents and grandmother offering to help by bringing homework, food, medicine, and so on.
> 
> So a big sign that says QUARANTINE does not seem so terrible to me. Let's get this disease under control.



DH is 71 and had scarlet fever when he was 6 years old. He was sent to a medical facility commonly known by locals back then as the Pest House. He must have recovered very quickly because he remembers his stay as having a good time running around and playing with the other kids there. The poor nurses! HIs family was placed under quarantine at home with a quarantine sign posted on their door. No one else in the family got sick. When we get together and it comes up his next oldest brother still complains about having to stay in the house with only their oldest brother to play with and having to help entertain their youngest brother who would have been about 20 months old.


----------



## Conan (Nov 30, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1333143587597402112"


----------



## Ken555 (Nov 30, 2020)

Cornell said:


> But you are indirectly scolding someone for going out to purchase chocolates when they can be ordered online.



After so many months, I’m no longer hoping people do the right thing and instead doing what little I can to influence their decisions. If there is a safer way to accomplish a goal, why wouldn’t you take it?



> You are participating in Black Friday deals.



I have not been inside any retail store since early March. I have not eaten at any restaurant, inside or out, since March 9. The only buildings I have been to have been for medical appointments, and even then I don’t take elevators (with one notable exception when the stairway door was locked). The only place I have personally bought anything is at a local outdoor farm.

All Black Friday and other purchases I make are online.



> What about the people that have to deliver those chocolates?



The best way I know to limit the spread is to reduce the number of people that congregate in any location. Delivery company employees tend not to be inside (at least, not when delivering) and I believe work alone so they should be much safer than, for example, working in an office.



> Or those that have to manufacturer these things? Why is it ok to put THEM in harm's way? All of the people involved in the procurement of these products could be asymptotic and spreading Covid. How is THAT ok?



It’s not okay. I have never advocated shutting the country down. I have advocated being as safe as possible. Ordering online and having everything possible delivered is what I can do to limit the spread, and as it’s not that hard to do I encourage others to do the same. The manufacturers that seem to have uncontrolled infections are those that require employees to be indoors in close proximity to others for long periods of time, such as those meat packing companies we read about months ago. However, I haven’t read the same in recent months so I’m hoping that means they have found ways to increase separation, air flow, etc, but I’m not sure.

Thanks for asking.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## bluehende (Nov 30, 2020)

WinniWoman said:


> Because every time a spike in cases is reported the virtue signalers comment how it’s because people aren’t wearing masks. These people want to blame someone. They want a sense of control. In their minds there is no other explanation. They are doing their part but others are not because they are selfish.
> 
> But back in May some epidemiologists did say we will all be exposed to the virus eventually anyway.
> 
> Hence the mask arguments begin.


You may want to go back and actually see who insists on posting their opinions first.  Or you can look at this thread.  Some one posts that they had a case in their neighborhood.  They are immediately confronted with how do you know it was the first case .......post 5.  Which of course started the ridiculousness of the comments.  Then someone     in post 39 calls a lot of people selfish. And even admits this post will not be received well. I can only wonder why someone would post something they know will get nasty and then blames others for replying.


----------



## Glynda (Nov 30, 2020)

wackymother said:


> I'm younger than many people on TUG, but I still remember when my classmates in school had measles and were quarantined. Yes, the department of health would literally come and put a big bold sign on the door that said QUARANTINE. The person with measles and the family could not leave their house until the department of health gave the all-clear. The family would have food and other items delivered or brought over and left at the door by friends. Doesn't anyone else remember this?
> 
> No one thought less of that family that they were ill or had been exposed. I just remember feeling sorry for them that they were sick, and my parents and grandmother offering to help by bringing homework, food, medicine, and so on.
> hen
> So a big sign that says QUARANTINE does not seem so terrible to me. Let's get this disease under control.


I remember being quarantined for measles, chicken pox, mumps and scarlet fever. Our family doctor came to the house to treat me.  At least for one of them, I had to be kept in a totally dark and quiet room for some reason. I don't remember having a health dept sign but we could not leave until the doctor came and said so.


----------



## Glynda (Nov 30, 2020)

bluehende said:


> And others are getting sick of hearing how their God given rights and freedoms includes endangering others.  Or are all of the families of the 273000 dead  just not that important.



Exactly!


----------



## wackymother (Nov 30, 2020)

Glynda said:


> I remember being quarantined for measles, chicken pox, mumps and scarlet fever. Our family doctor came to the house to treat me.  At least for one of them, I had to be kept in a totally dark and quiet room for some reason. I don't remember having a health dept sign but we could not leave until the doctor came and said so.



You have to be kept in a dark room for measles. Light can affect your eyes when you have it. Not sure about the quiet, but it's probably best for the patient to be kept quiet.


----------



## Glynda (Nov 30, 2020)

Cornell said:


> What feels like an alternate reality to me is when I go on social media and see all of my friends kids going to school.  And my daughter cannot and her entire class will not have a senior year.  Yeah, that is hard for me to process.
> 
> Last spring was a different deal when all the nation's kids were "in it together".  Now, totally different story.  Why can some kids be back in school and others not?  I can't rationalize that.
> 
> And last year's kids lost ceremonial things.  This year they are losing an education PLUS everything else.



I don't know why, in your situation, some can go to school and others can not if these friends are local. Perhaps private schools. 

My granddaughter lost much of that second semester of her senior year at a historic private school that she had been going to since she was 2 1/2 years old!  There were lots of "ceremonial things" and "PLUS everything else" that she'd been waiting for when she finally got to be a senior.  It's hard and it's sad but these are different times in a changing world. We try to do the best we can to protect ourselves and others with the evolving and limited information that we have. I'm ashamed of the way my granddaughter acted when she went to Clemson this fall.  I can only keep her at a distance now and that hurts too. People are hurting for lost opportunities everywhere.  Non more so than the family and friends of the dead.


----------



## Glynda (Nov 30, 2020)

wackymother said:


> You have to be kept in a dark room for measles. Light can affect your eyes when you have it. Not sure about the dark, but it's probably best for the patient to be kept quiet.



Thanks!  I had forgotten.  It was probably best for my parents for me to be quiet!


----------



## WinniWoman (Nov 30, 2020)

bluehende said:


> You may want to go back and actually see who insists on posting their opinions first.  Or you can look at this thread.  Some one posts that they had a case in their neighborhood.  They are immediately confronted with how do you know it was the first case .......post 5.  Which of course started the ridiculousness of the comments.  Then someone     in post 39 calls a lot of people selfish. And even admits this post will not be received well. I can only wonder why someone would post something they know will get nasty and then blames others for replying.



I was simply responding to turkel’s question from my perspective.


----------



## WinniWoman (Nov 30, 2020)

bluehende said:


> You may want to go back and actually see who insists on posting their opinions first.  Or you can look at this thread.  Some one posts that they had a case in their neighborhood.  They are immediately confronted with how do you know it was the first case .......post 5.  Which of course started the ridiculousness of the comments.  Then someone     in post 39 calls a lot of people selfish. And even admits this post will not be received well. I can only wonder why someone would post something they know will get nasty and then blames others for replying.



And so you are saying it’s ok for someone to post that one group of people is selfish, but not for someone to counter that saying it is another group that is selfish?  That the poster who calls one group selfish should not get what you consider nasty remarks but the other should? Yeah- I do see that one, which is why I said it would not be received well!

As for post #5 I totally get that question because it was the first thing that came to my mind when the OP started this thread.

Seems to me you are the one with the opinion calling peoples’ comments ridiculous.


----------



## TravelTime (Nov 30, 2020)

WinniWoman said:


> And so you are saying it’s ok for someone to post that one group of people is selfish, but not for someone to counter that saying it is another group is selfish?  That the poster who calls one group selfish should get what you consider nasty remarks but the other should? Yeah- I do see that one, which is why I said it would not be re well!
> 
> As for post #5 I totally get that question because it was the first thing that came to my mind when the OP started this thread.
> 
> Seems to me you are the one with the opinion calling peoples’ comments ridiculous.



There was nothing wrong with the question on post #5. That post did not invite or provoke any negativity. There were others calling people selfish well before post #39, for example, see post #16. In post #3 there was a judgmental comment about those who get Covid. The silliness started in reaction to post #18 where someone suggested making Covid public to neighbors and where they work.


----------



## am1 (Nov 30, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> There was nothing wrong with the question on post #5. That post did not invite or provoke any negativity. There were others calling people selfish well before post #39, for example, see post #16. In post #3 there was a judgmental comment about those who get Covid. The silliness started in reaction to post #18 where someone suggested making Covid public to neighbors and where they work.



Why is that silly?  Make it public so it is made real to some. So people know to stay away from that house for the time being.  Also people can police the house to make sure no one is coming or going even if its just to get milk. Making it public would help to keep cases from going even higher.


----------



## WinniWoman (Nov 30, 2020)

am1 said:


> Why is that silly?  Make it public so it is made real to some. So people know to stay away from that house for the time being.  Also people can police the house to make sure no one is coming or going even if its just to get milk. Making it public would help to keep cases from going even higher.



Because unlike you, most of us live in the United States of America or another “free” nation, not communist China.


----------



## geekette (Nov 30, 2020)

am1 said:


> Why is that silly?  Make it public so it is made real to some. So people know to stay away from that house for the time being.  Also people can police the house to make sure no one is coming or going even if its just to get milk. Making it public would help to keep cases from going even higher.


I remain against surveillance.  Who is supposed to do that?   I don't want anyone "policing" me or my house.  It's completely unnecessary and quite creepy.  I would call the cops if someone was coming around.  Why would anyone just walk up to my house anyway??   Why would anyone be going to houses of others without invite during a pandemic?    What's it to you if I get my groceries curbside?   What's the problem with my heading to the doctor or picking up meds via drive through? 

Numbers are public, they are real.   Nobody has to disclose their status to you for it to be "real".   Why not assume that everyone is infected vs demanding to know who has proof of sickness?


----------



## Cornell (Nov 30, 2020)

Glynda said:


> I don't know why, in your situation, some can go to school and others can not if these friends are local. Perhaps private schools.
> 
> My granddaughter lost much of that second semester of her senior year at a historic private school that she had been going to since she was 2 1/2 years old!  There were lots of "ceremonial things" and "PLUS everything else" that she'd been waiting for when she finally got to be a senior.  It's hard and it's sad but these are different times in a changing world. We try to do the best we can to protect ourselves and others with the evolving and limited information that we have. I'm ashamed of the way my granddaughter acted when she went to Clemson this fall.  I can only keep her at a distance now and that hurts too. People are hurting for lost opportunities everywhere.  Non more so than the family and friends of the dead.



I have many friends who live in different parts of the country than I do and their kids are in school & participating in sports. They have had homecoming, they are taking SATs, etc. 

Even Dr. Fauci now agrees that kids should be in school.

If you are  high school senior in many metro areas  of the US year, it is very likely that you will graduate high school in '21 without physically being in your school since March '20.  Illinois is discussing, AGAIN, modifying some of the high school graduation requirements, like they did last spring.  I find that really unbelievable.


----------



## SueDonJ (Nov 30, 2020)

geekette said:


> I remain against surveillance.  Who is supposed to do that?   I don't want anyone "policing" me or my house.  It's completely unnecessary and quite creepy.  I would call the cops if someone was coming around.  Why would anyone just walk up to my house anyway??   Why would anyone be going to houses of others without invite during a pandemic?    What's it to you if I get my groceries curbside?   What's the problem with my heading to the doctor or picking up meds via drive through?
> 
> Numbers are public, they are real.   Nobody has to disclose their status to you for it to be "real".   Why not assume that everyone is infected vs demanding to know who has proof of sickness?



I don't disagree with you about surveillance  but I'd go a little bit further as far as each of us acknowledging the very real risk and being willing to do what we're asked to do to lessen the spread. So, "why not assume that everyone is infected" _and contagious_, and follow the simple guidelines that ask everyone to wear a mask, wash your hands, practice social distancing consistently, and limit travel to only when necessary?


----------



## rapmarks (Nov 30, 2020)

I laugh because you think there are probably cases and no one knew. Maybe 10 to 15 percent don’t participate but somehow people know everything that happens in this community even to the people who know very few others.  I am not one in the know, but word spreads like wildfire here.  If someone gets covid who belongs to a certain group, it will be widespread within two weeks

person who is  positive reports that she feels like a bad head cold with loss of taste and smell and husband has no symptoms

I read this cute book this summer called Before She Was Helen.  Helen is living in a senior community under an assumed name trying to keep a low profile. Pretty funny reading how that worked out


----------



## BingoBangoBongo (Nov 30, 2020)

1) wash hands frequently
2) wear a mask when around others and not able to SD
3) social distancing
4) work remotely if possible and stay home if you don’t feel well

if everyone would have just done these simple things we wouldn’t have the cluster behind or ahead of us.  Too many people act like these simple acts are a burden and many of the people who could impact this behavior have been absent and ignorant.


----------



## wackymother (Nov 30, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I have many friends who live in different parts of the country than I do and their kids are in school & participating in sports. They have had homecoming, they are taking SATs, etc.
> 
> Even Dr. Fauci now agrees that kids should be in school.
> 
> If you are  high school senior in many metro areas  of the US year, it is very likely that you will graduate high school in '21 without physically being in your school since March '20.  Illinois is discussing, AGAIN, modifying some of the high school graduation requirements, like they did last spring.  I find that really unbelievable.



Where is this? Public schools? I haven't heard of any public schools that are having normal years. Just getting a seat for the SATs is a huge struggle bc the College Board has canceled so many test dates. We are in NJ. Here the schools opened late, parents have the option of virtual or hybrid learning, and almost all kids are doing all-virtual.


----------



## Cornell (Nov 30, 2020)

wackymother said:


> Where is this? Public schools? I haven't heard of any public schools that are having normal years. Just getting a seat for the SATs is a huge struggle bc the College Board has canceled so many test dates. We are in NJ. Here the schools opened late, parents have the option of virtual or hybrid learning, and almost all kids are doing all-virtual.


Schools are open in IN


----------



## wackymother (Nov 30, 2020)

They are open here, but not at all like fully attended. Schools that can accommodate 1200 sudents have an average daily population, including teachers, of about 80 people. Are classrooms full in Indiana?


----------



## Cornell (Nov 30, 2020)

wackymother said:


> They are open here, but not at all like fully attended. Schools that can accommodate 1200 sudents have an average daily population, including teachers, of about 80 people. Are classrooms full in Indiana?


My best friend is a principal in IN and her school is fully open.
I can't speak for all schools in IN  and their capacity but I see friends of mine posting pictures from fall sports, etc.  
We having NOTHING in IL.
In fact, our district sent out an email today saying they are refunding most of the fees paid for yearbooks as there will be no yearbooks to speak of this year. They are just going to have a book that has student photos and that's it , as there are no activities / clubs  / sports to publish.


----------



## Ken555 (Nov 30, 2020)

It looks like Indiana is hurting and many schools are not open for in-person education.

More Indiana schools move online as COVID-19 spread spikes








						More Indiana schools move online as COVID-19 spread spikes
					

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — Dozens of Indiana school districts are changing in-person learning schedules or sending students home as the state continues to report record increases in new coronavirus...




					apnews.com
				




Nearly 2,000 additional COVID-19 cases reported in schools, total tops 17,000








						Nearly 2,000 additional COVID-19 cases reported in schools, total tops 17,000
					

More than 17,000 cases of COVID-19 have been reported in Indiana schools since the start of the school year.



					www.indystar.com
				




Marion County schools going back to virtual; new restrictions on businesses and gatherings








						Marion County schools going back to virtual; new restrictions on businesses and gatherings
					

Mayor Joe Hogsett said the positivity rate in Marion County is above the 10 percent threshold and now requires additional mitigation.




					www.wthr.com
				




There were numerous articles I saw from a quick search.


----------



## rapmarks (Nov 30, 2020)

Cornell said:


> My best friend is a principal in IN and her school is fully open.
> I can't speak for all schools in IN  and their capacity but I see friends of mine posting pictures from fall sports, etc.
> We having NOTHING in IL.
> In fact, our district sent out an email today saying they are refunding most of the fees paid for yearbooks as there will be no yearbooks to speak of this year. They are just going to have a book that has student photos and that's it , as there are no activities / clubs  / sports to publish.


So sad. Just devastating


----------



## Glynda (Nov 30, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I have many friends who live in different parts of the country than I do and their kids are in school & participating in sports. They have had homecoming, they are taking SATs, etc.
> 
> Even Dr. Fauci now agrees that kids should be in school.
> 
> If you are  high school senior in many metro areas  of the US year, it is very likely that you will graduate high school in '21 without physically being in your school since March '20.  Illinois is discussing, AGAIN, modifying some of the high school graduation requirements, like they did last spring.  I find that really unbelievable.



Schools are open in most areas though attendance is limited and many do not show up on the days that they are assigned. It's the same in my college class. Since going hybrid, my professor has never had more than 4 students show up in the classroom. She is usually instructing an empty classroom via a bad camera and microphone set-up. We're a class of 25 students however, students choose not to go to class on the day assigned but to attend on ZOOM instead.  When the campus was closed, the professor taught from her home and the sound and video quality was so much better! The kids don't seem to want to be there; whether they are afraid of COVID or just don't want to roll out of bed, get dressed and be in a physical classroom by 10 AM, I don't know. 

I do understand your sorrow over your child missing out on her senior year; on homecoming, prom, sports and all those "plus" things. I felt for our granddaughter too. Our children will have stories to tell their children about the year/s when. Just like my parents told me and I had stories to tell my daughter about how "hard I had it." 

When I was a teen and whined about what I couldn't do or she wouldn't let me do, my mother would finally just stop, turn and give me that look and say or sing, "Nobody ever promised you a rose garden."( I know, it's "I never promised you a rose garden.") I swore then that I would never be like my mother but over the years I have found her words just keep coming out of my mouth anyway and that song keeps popping into my mind. Nothing in life is guaranteed and that's a lesson well learned this past year.


----------



## TravelTime (Nov 30, 2020)

In Tennessee, they allow stadium sports. Someone I know on Facebook just attended a football game in a huge stadium in Memphis. She said it was like a ghost town because they were limiting attendance. However there were 16,000 people in attendance and the photos looked like there were lots of people anyway. So how can TN allow that when the rest of country is close to shut down or shutting down.


----------



## Cornell (Nov 30, 2020)

Glynda said:


> Schools are open in most areas though attendance is limited and many do not show up on the days that they are assigned. It's the same in my college class. Since going hybrid, my professor has never had more than 4 students show up in the classroom. She is usually instructing an empty classroom via a bad camera and microphone set-up. We're a class of 25 students however, students choose not to go to class on the day assigned but to attend on ZOOM instead.  When the campus was closed, the professor taught from her home and the sound and video quality was so much better! The kids don't seem to want to be there; whether they are afraid of COVID or just don't want to roll out of bed, get dressed and be in a physical classroom by 10 AM, I don't know.
> 
> I do understand your sorrow over your child missing out on her senior year; on homecoming, prom, sports and all those "plus" things. I felt for our granddaughter too. Our children will have stories to tell their children about the year/s when. Just like my parents told me and I had stories to tell my daughter about how "hard I had it."
> 
> When I was a teen and whined about what I couldn't do or she wouldn't let me do, my mother would finally just stop, turn and give me that look and say or sing, "Nobody ever promised you a rose garden."( I know, it's "I never promised you a rose garden.") I swore then that I would never be like my mother but over the years I have found her words just keep coming out of my mouth anyway and that song keeps popping into my mind. Nothing in life is guaranteed and that's a lesson well learned this past year.


Agreed... I was raised with a “life isn’t fair” motto . And I generally agree. 

My daughter is “over” senior year. She saw the writing on the wall over the summer and has moved on . My biggest concern is that these kids get the educations that they need and deserve for what’s next in their lives... whatever that may be.


----------



## TravelTime (Nov 30, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Agreed... I was raised with a “life isn’t fair” motto . And I generally agree.
> 
> My daughter is “over” senior year. She saw the writing on the wall over the summer and has moved on . My biggest concern is that these kids get the educations that they need and deserve for what’s next in their lives... whatever that may be.



I learned more in high school than in college. But I took a lot of AP and honors classes and happened to have good teachers in the public high school I attended. This made college very easy for me compared to others. Frankly all the fundamentals were there for me by high school. I think primary and secondary education is critical. I am not really worried about college age kids. They either have the skills or don’t by college.


----------



## geekette (Nov 30, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> So how can TN allow that when the rest of country is close to shut down or shutting down.


I would have to dispute that the rest of the country is close to shut down or shutting down.   I'm not finding news like that, please name shut down states.    

I don't know the situation in TN but they aren't the only stadium accepting spectators.   Things are dynamic, could be the only attended event they have.    Or maybe their situation is at plateau or decreasing infection rates, etc.  

I did think it odd, watching some NFL over the weekend, how guests were distributed.   BIG place, I would have thought people would have been MUCH more distanced.   Honestly, facility management in a situation like this has got to be a headache.


----------



## DrQ (Nov 30, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> It looks like Indiana is hurting and many schools are not open for in-person education.
> 
> More Indiana schools move online as COVID-19 spread spikes
> 
> ...


I would suspect the schools in:

Gary Metro area
Indianapolis Metro area (Marion Co)
Louisville Metro area
are in the worst shape.

I would suspect that Ft Wayne, South Bend, Lafayette and Terre Haute are far behind.


----------



## controller1 (Nov 30, 2020)

geekette said:


> I would have to dispute that the rest of the country is close to shut down or shutting down.   I'm not finding news like that, please name shut down states.
> 
> I don't know the situation in TN but they aren't the only stadium accepting spectators.   Things are dynamic, could be the only attended event they have.    Or maybe their situation is at plateau or decreasing infection rates, etc.
> 
> I did think it odd, watching some NFL over the weekend, how guests were distributed.   BIG place, I would have thought people would have been MUCH more distanced.   Honestly, facility management in a situation like this has got to be a headache.



I agree. Here in Louisiana both high school and college stadiums are allowed attendance equal to 25% capacity. That allows LSU to have approximately 21,000 in attendance. Now if LSU only had a football team this year where there was demand for that many seats!


----------



## DannyTS (Nov 30, 2020)

rapmarks said:


> We felt safe in our community of 1000 homes, but it finally happened. The person who tested positive was one who argued with residents all this time that she wasn’t wearing a mask, she wasn’t changing her life style, she wasn’t living in fear.  I knew she had a house cleaning business, but I didn’t realize she led the large water aerobics group too.  I haven’t been doing anything but take my husband to medical appointments so we are safe so far.  Had the test last Monday and we’re negative.  Hoping others weren’t infected, lots of vulnerable people here.


It is not credible that this is the first person to get Covid in a  community, in any community. I will  tell you what most of your neighbors have done in the last 9 months:
shopping, they went to restaurants, visited friends and family, worked in the front lines etc. I would let the poor lady alone. I bet she had enough to suffer financially from this pandemic.


----------



## am1 (Nov 30, 2020)

WinniWoman said:


> Because unlike you, most of us live in the United States of America or another “free” nation, not communist China.


No need to get offensive.  Also more cases then any other country.


----------



## DannyTS (Nov 30, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> The asymptomatic nature of COVID-19 spread is probably the most terrifying of all its characteristics, probably the most important factor that justifies masking, social distancing, etc. But again, judgmental comments wouldn't be lobbed unless all those suggestions to contain the spread are being blatantly ignored.


The asymptomatic nature of Covid is common, just like the flu (1 in 3 are asymptomatic) . Just that this time it was exploited to the max to inflict panic. It seems it worked









						Does Influenza Transmission Occur from Asymptomatic Infection or Prior to Symptom Onset?
					

A better understanding of transmission dynamics is essential in influenza pandemic planning. If a substantial proportion of transmissions were to occur during the presymptomatic phase or from asymptomatic individuals, then infection control measures such ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## TravelTime (Nov 30, 2020)

geekette said:


> I would have to dispute that the rest of the country is close to shut down or shutting down.   I'm not finding news like that, please name shut down states.
> 
> I don't know the situation in TN but they aren't the only stadium accepting spectators.   Things are dynamic, could be the only attended event they have.    Or maybe their situation is at plateau or decreasing infection rates, etc.
> 
> I did think it odd, watching some NFL over the weekend, how guests were distributed.   BIG place, I would have thought people would have been MUCH more distanced.   Honestly, facility management in a situation like this has got to be a headache.



There was an announcement today in California that the state may be imposing shut downs like they did in March.









						California considers strict stay-at-home orders as COVID-19 cases projected to exceed ICU capacity — The Sacramento Bee
					

Coronavirus cases are rising so rapidly that Gov. Gavin Newsom says if trends continue he will reimpose strict stay-at-home orders like he issued in March to prevent hospitals from becoming overwhelmed.




					apple.news
				




Kauai has basically shut down to travel.

Things are slowly getting more restrictive again. Probably will be more so after the holidays when Covid has spread even more.

I do not understand why football games are allowed with spectators. Makes no sense to me. If schools can’t stay open, then why allow 16,000 people to congregate to watch a live game. I have never understood the fascination with watching people tackle each other anyway. It’s just a game. Not an essential service or even meaningful entertainment.


----------



## am1 (Nov 30, 2020)

geekette said:


> I remain against surveillance.  Who is supposed to do that?   I don't want anyone "policing" me or my house.  It's completely unnecessary and quite creepy.  I would call the cops if someone was coming around.  Why would anyone just walk up to my house anyway??   Why would anyone be going to houses of others without invite during a pandemic?    What's it to you if I get my groceries curbside?   What's the problem with my heading to the doctor or picking up meds via drive through?
> 
> Numbers are public, they are real.   Nobody has to disclose their status to you for it to be "real".   Why not assume that everyone is infected vs demanding to know who has proof of sickness?


Door to door sales people, someone visiting etc.

If you have covid you should not leave your house except for emergency medical reason.  Same with anyone staying with you.  Curbside and drive thru is still putting those people working at risk. Same if you are in an accident and have to exchange info, car breaks down etc.  Just stay home and wait it out.  But I guess your freedoms are more important then others health.


----------



## DannyTS (Nov 30, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I have many friends who live in different parts of the country than I do and their kids are in school & participating in sports. They have had homecoming, they are taking SATs, etc.
> 
> Even Dr. Fauci now agrees that kids should be in school.
> 
> If you are  high school senior in many metro areas  of the US year, it is very likely that you will graduate high school in '21 without physically being in your school since March '20.  Illinois is discussing, AGAIN, modifying some of the high school graduation requirements, like they did last spring.  I find that really unbelievable.


I remember a couple of months ago when "somebody" was lecturing us on this site that we did not understand how dangerous schools were. We lived in an alternative universe we were told. The bad one of course not like the righteous people who watch TV.  Now Mr. Fauci  admitted it is not the case (yet another flip). A little too little too late especially since we had plenty of data for him to say it before the end of the summer vacation.


----------



## geekette (Dec 1, 2020)

am1 said:


> Door to door sales people, someone visiting etc.
> 
> If you have covid you should not leave your house except for emergency medical reason.  Same with anyone staying with you.  Curbside and drive thru is still putting those people working at risk. Same if you are in an accident and have to exchange info, car breaks down etc.  Just stay home and wait it out.  *But I guess your freedoms are more important then others health.*


"But I guess your freedoms are more important then others health."

I said nothing of the kind.   what a nasty insinuation.   When have I posted anything about my precious freedoms???   You do not know what you're talking about.   

I live alone and manage my life myself and am not out and about when not infected, so your expectation that I would go mingle when known to be positive is seriously offensive.   I have spent most every day of the pandemic all by myself at my home.   My essentials trips are rare and I get in and out as quickly as I can.

It is far safer for me to pick up a bag off a curb than send a delivery person to my door.  Didn't you just want to warn door to door sales people away from my house, but would have some grocery delivery person to my door?   Right to the infection??  Make up your mind.  

I will not die at home, I will drive myself to ER after calling ahead.   Get off your horse and tell me what you'd do instead of making assumptions about me.   You're not quite in a position to tell anyone what to do.


----------



## geekette (Dec 1, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> There was an announcement today in California that the state may be imposing shut downs like they did in March.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think considering stay-at-home orders is not the same as shut down.   But, ok, CA is considering restrictions.  some places have curfews. 

"Shut down to travel" is not same as closed businesses, and HI is not drive to, and waaaay too far to consider flying to for most of us.   I thought they had mostly discouraged tourism for most of this, so it doesn't surprise me that they would close to tourists as needed. 

I am with you on why allow anyone in stadiums.   I do like football (it's not really about the tackling), but not enough to go see any in person this season.   I haven't been following the season, would actually prefer that sports sit out until virus abates.   I would be seriously angry if wealthy sports stars got vax before nurses.  Big Money should not be able to cut in line.


----------



## Cornell (Dec 1, 2020)

am1 said:


> Door to door sales people, someone visiting etc.
> 
> If you have covid you should not leave your house except for emergency medical reason.  Same with anyone staying with you.  Curbside and drive thru is still putting those people working at risk. Same if you are in an accident and have to exchange info, car breaks down etc.  Just stay home and wait it out.  But I guess your freedoms are more important then others health.


Even though I have a completely opposite viewpoint on Covid , I admire your comments here.  You have a position and it's consistent.  You believe that ALL people need to be protected from Covid.

See the issue that I have is that once we get the gov't involved with picking which businesses are essential, or which leisure activities are safe, etc, it's gets awfully complicated.  And it puts some people are risk while others are protected.  Getting Grub Hub or groceries delivered has always seemed a bit elitist to me. So I like the fact that you have 100% consistency in your views.

Tangentially related -- can your children go to school where you live?


----------



## geekette (Dec 1, 2020)

....Getting Grub Hub or groceries delivered has always seemed a bit elitist to me. 

While I wouldn't call it elitist, it is not no-cost.  A buck goes less far as soon as the labor is outsourced.


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 1, 2020)

One should not be fooled by the theory that just those that are against mandatory measures contribute to the spread of the virus:








						LA County supervisor visited restaurant after voting for outdoor dining ban: report
					

Los Angeles County Supervisor Sheila Kuehl visited an eatery in Santa Monica, Calif., last week, just hours after she voted to ban outdoor dining at restaurants in the county due to COVID-19 safety concerns, according to a report.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Cornell (Dec 1, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> One should not be fooled by the theory that just those that are against mandatory measure contribute to the spread of the virus:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And this 









						San Jose Mayor Ignored Health Protocols During Holiday Celebration
					

Mayor Sam Liccardo spent Thanksgiving at his parents’ home, apparently skirting health guidelines that urge the public not to gather with people outside their household




					www.nbcbayarea.com


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 1, 2020)

and this




and this




(Gavin Newsom 'ate birthday dinner INSIDE California restaurant' )

I can go on and on


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 1, 2020)

Ok, if I may add, in congress 18 representatives tested positive so far. 8 on one side, 10 on the other side. Given the small number, it is not statistically significant and one can argue that both sides contribute equally despite what they claim they do.


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 1, 2020)

am1 said:


> Door to door sales people, someone visiting etc.
> 
> If you have covid you should not leave your house except for emergency medical reason.  Same with anyone staying with you.  Curbside and drive thru is still putting those people working at risk. Same if you are in an accident and have to exchange info, car breaks down etc.  Just stay home and wait it out.  But I guess your freedoms are more important then others health.


This is an easy one. The freedom is what brought prosperity to the Western world and implicitly a major contributor to the health care system. Freedom equals health. 
Unless one believes that the most advanced health care systems in the world are in the totalitarian countries


----------



## cman (Dec 1, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Ok, if I may add, in congress 18 representatives tested positive so far. 8 on one side, 10 on the other side. Given the small number, it is not statistically significant and one can argue that both sides contribute equally despite what they claim they do.


I'm pretty sure this is a nonpartisan virus.


----------



## Glynda (Dec 1, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> and this
> View attachment 29313
> 
> and this
> ...



Does anyone know if Falci and Newsom have already had COVID or the date of the second photo?  Perhaps the two have had one of the trial vaccines?  I agree, it doesn't look good to the public to see these. The administration of our country has, in general, set a bad example and may have endangered many people because of it. 

We knew next to nothing about this virus when it began. It's unfolded before us. Some actions we feared in the beginning have been shown to not be  methods of spreading. Masks were not encouraged in the beginning, personally I think because of the shortage of them at the time and the greater need of them for first responders and those at higher risk. Later they determined that the virus is airborne so masks were then encouraged, in some places mandated.  I feel that everyone should be wearing them around other people to protect themselves as well as others and to set a good example. To wear a mask is a small thing to ask of people with the exception of those who have respiratory conditions which might be worsened by an ordinary mask.


----------



## am1 (Dec 1, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Even though I have a completely opposite viewpoint on Covid , I admire your comments here.  You have a position and it's consistent.  You believe that ALL people need to be protected from Covid.
> 
> See the issue that I have is that once we get the gov't involved with picking which businesses are essential, or which leisure activities are safe, etc, it's gets awfully complicated.  And it puts some people are risk while others are protected.  Getting Grub Hub or groceries delivered has always seemed a bit elitist to me. So I like the fact that you have 100% consistency in your views.
> 
> Tangentially related -- can your children go to school where you live?



Students entered classes first week of March and then March 13 closed. Our school offered work to be self taught and graded through the website and then in April when the writing was on the wall started online classes.  Eventually other private schools followed and July 20th public school started and in a few weeks all will finish the year.  Public school in this form is not much but by computer, radio and tv.  Even schools with 8 kids, some being siblings and no roads to get to the school are treated the same as 500 students in a school where students come from all over a city of a million people. Its been reported that a lot of the rural schools do not have or not enough running water to operate a school post covid with more hand washing etc.  A need for larger reserve tanks.  Now we get almost 3 months of vacation wondering what happens for the next school year.  Also what the kids will do during these coming months.  Mine will ride bikes, tv, tablet, go to the beach, visit my farms with me they play with the next door neighbours kid and 3 cousins. Thankfully we can be outside year round and live in an area with very few cases (so far).  


To respond to the other person if you have corona virus or are living with someone who does then you should not go out except for medical emergency.  Any thing else creates more risk for others.  A sign on the before door stating do not enter is helpful.  If you need food call a delivery service or get a friend/family to drop it off outside the house for you to pick up after they leave.  If you have a dog invest in some old newspapers or special pads for the dog.  If you work stay home.  If you are bored suck it up. None of these are reasons to go out and endanger others.  These are the freedoms I am talking about should not be put in front of other peoples health.  A lot of people think they are being safe but in the end that does not matter when one gets sick and spreads it.


----------



## Cornell (Dec 1, 2020)

Glynda said:


> Does anyone know if Falci and Newsom have already had COVID or the date of the second photo?  Perhaps the two have had one of the trial vaccines?  I agree, it doesn't look good to the public to see these. The administration of our country has, in general, set a bad example and may have endangered many people because of it.
> 
> We knew next to nothing about this virus when it began. It's unfolded before us. Some actions we feared in the beginning have been shown to not be  methods of spreading. Masks were not encouraged in the beginning, personally I think because of the shortage of them at the time and the greater need of them for first responders and those at higher risk. Later they determined that the virus is airborne so masks were then encouraged, in some places mandated.  I feel that everyone should be wearing them around other people to protect themselves as well as others and to set a good example. To wear a mask is a small thing to ask of people with the exception of those who have respiratory conditions which might be worsened by an ordinary mask.


Fauci has said that wearing a mask will still be necessary even after a vaccine.  










						Social distancing, masks still necessary after getting COVID-19 vaccine: Fauci
					

Dr. Anthony Fauci said Sunday it will still be necessary to social distance, wear masks and take other COVID-19 precautions after a vaccine becomes available to Americans. “I would recommend …




					nypost.com


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 1, 2020)

Glynda said:


> *Does anyone know if Falci and Newsom have already had COVID or the date of the second photo?  Perhaps the two have had one of the trial vaccines? * I agree, it doesn't look good to the public to see these. The administration of our country has, in general, set a bad example and may have endangered many people because of it.
> 
> We knew next to nothing about this virus when it began. It's unfolded before us. Some actions we feared in the beginning have been shown to not be  methods of spreading. Masks were not encouraged in the beginning, personally I think because of the shortage of them at the time and the greater need of them for first responders and those at higher risk. Later they determined that the virus is airborne so masks were then encouraged, in some places mandated.  I feel that everyone should be wearing them around other people to protect themselves as well as others and to set a good example. To wear a mask is a small thing to ask of people with the exception of those who have respiratory conditions which might be worsened by an ordinary mask.


The fact that you are asking the question  shows how little the mainstream media have discussed about anything that is against the official narrative. It is likely that most Tuggers have seen those picture on this site for the first time.


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 1, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Fauci has said that wearing a mask will still be necessary even after a vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you want to bet that many restrictions will be still in place long after Covid is officially over and that we will deal with a new virus in the not so distant future? The current situation  is too convenient for those in power to let it go so easily. I mean those that are really in power.


----------



## Cornell (Dec 1, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Do you want to bet that many restrictions will be still in place long after Covid is officially over and that we will deal with a new virus in the not so distant future? The current situation  is too convenient for some in power to let it go so easily.


That's an easy bet.


----------



## Glynda (Dec 1, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Getting Grub Hub or groceries delivered has always seemed a bit elitist to me.



While we have only one restaurant deliver (they have always done so and are two blocks behind our house) and have no groceries delivered (curbside pick-up instead) I don't see getting groceries or meals delivered as elitist. I know it adds more cost but for those at high risk it may be what they need to do in order to stay in their homes and thus find a way to make up for it by cutting other costs. My best friend across our state has a very serious lung condition and her weight is down to 85 pounds. I am so thankful that the deacons of her church, and their wives, have been helping her, actually for years, but steadily since the outbreak. Most are younger couples who buy her groceries weekly (some even paying for them though that is not what my friend wants them to do) and bring them to her front door. The dog lovers among them, come over and take her dog for a long walk most days so that she only needs to take him out the door for a minute the rest of the time. Her neighbor has a concierge house sitting etc. service and gives up her own fee and provides a cleaning person once a week for my friend. My friend pays $25. towards that. Money is very tight for her but it is worth it to give her life as cleaning her small apartment is a monumental task for someone with a lung disease.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 1, 2020)

Cornell said:


> You believe that ALL people need to be protected from Covid.



Now that I consider this, I have to agree with your implied comment that some do not believe all people should be protected from Covid. For instance, those who supported the misguided belief of achieving herd immunity without a vaccine.



> See the issue that I have is that once we get the gov't involved with picking which businesses are essential, or which leisure activities are safe, etc, it's gets awfully complicated.



Yes, it’s complicated. But the role of our elected leadership is to make decisions such as these in order to protect the community. That is their job. Some are obviously doing better than others, while some are being stymied by the courts (allowing religious services while not allowing other types of meetings is objectively just crazy).



> And it puts some people are risk while others are protected. Getting Grub Hub or groceries delivered has always seemed a bit elitist to me.



If acting in this manner some consider elitist saves lives, call me an elitist. It’s obviously more expensive, yet it’s a small price to pay for contributing to lowering the spread (and for what it’s worth, I’ve discovered that the time I save by not shopping for myself is worth the minor increase I pay for the service). And then there are the companies setup for just delivery and don’t have a retail presence, such as Imperfect Foods, which I’ve found to actually be less overall than going to the market. How about Amazon? Walmart? Costco? And the many, many thousands of small businesses that only exist online and deliver 100% of their products? 

I wonder if those who consider online shoppers to be elitists would reconsider if they knew some of the people shopping in this manner are at high risk for covid and are simply following the best advice by not only reducing the number of people congregating in stores but also lowering the risk of a poor outcome for themselves. 

The manner in which we are classifying and criticizing others is really quite sad. It certainly seems some people want nothing more but to create divisions, promote unsupported failed theories (um...Sweden, anyone?), and blame our scientists for not knowing exactly what to do before anyone knew for certain how the virus spread and who was at risk and that their advice changes, as it should, with new evidence. Yet these same people who believe they have all the answers appear intelligent, so why is it so difficult for them to comprehend that scientists give advice based on the facts they know, and as the facts change with more insight so do their recommendations. But no, some people blame scientists for changing their recommendations over time, as if they should have known better before they had the info. These duplicitous comments detract from the goal of keeping as many people safe from Covid as possible, and in some cases work to promote community infection.

There’s also this recurring theme in these threads of the emotional toll taken on our children by not having schools open. Yet even now, when some experts promote openings of schools in certain areas and for certain ages (note none of the experts have said all schools should be open everywhere), the recent recommendation I have read states very clearly that young children should be in school but adolescents and teenagers should not since they spread Covid just as rapidly as adults. These nuances get lost in the posts, and in many cases simply not mentioned, and we are presented with statements such as Fauci thinks schools should be open (when actually he never said anything so simple, and which thinking so is taking his comments out of context). It seems that even in a pandemic with over a quarter of a million Americans dead, we cannot be honest about the dangers and the recommendations of the experts and instead criticize anything that doesn’t fit within our individual view of the world.

We can only do the best we can with the information we have, and when we cannot agree on what information is accurate or tear apart the scientists and experts working to save our lives, we are being counterproductive.

The facts are plain to see for all. We are currently at a point with increasing infections almost everywhere in America. Daily infection rate in Los Angeles alone has more than doubled in recent weeks. Hospitals are being overloaded with too few medical staff. The vaccines which will soon be available will help, but based on the latest information it will be many months before we have sufficient quantities to know when this might...just might...end. Avoid crowds, stay home as much as possible, wash your hands, wear masks, and be safe...and healthy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 1, 2020)

Some really have chutzpa to call Sweden a failure when they had 20% less deaths than the US and most of their deaths were at the beginning of the pandemic when a lockdown would have not helped much.


----------



## Brett (Dec 1, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Some really have chutzpa to call Sweden a failure when they had 20% less deaths than the US and most of their deaths were at the beginning of the pandemic when a lockdown would have not helped much.






Ken555 said:


> Now that I consider this, I have to agree with your implied comment that some do not believe all people should be protected from Covid. For instance, those who supported the misguided belief of achieving herd immunity without a vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




WHO would have the HUTS-PAH to call liberal socialist Sweden a failure ?


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 1, 2020)

Brett said:


> WHO would have the HUTS-PAH to call liberal socialist Sweden a failure ?
> 
> View attachment 29320



Ha! It’s also absurd to compare Sweden to the US, when the US has gone out of its way to make Covid much worse than it should have been. Compare Sweden instead to New Zealand, Australia, or many other countries. Then look at the messaging from these governments and experts, and then read up on the expectation that inherent community and social thinking in Sweden would have a natural benefit to limiting the spread.

Yeah, chutzpah is not always a bad thing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 1, 2020)

Using your own argument, it is absurd to compare to Australia and New Zealand. Why don't you compare those 2 countries  to Tanzania, Burundi and Mongolia that have done a lot better without the strict measures?


----------



## Cornell (Dec 1, 2020)

Food Delivery Apps Are Booming. Their Workers Are Often Struggling. (Published 2020)
					

Delivery drivers have been essential to feeding New York, while boosting sales for companies like DoorDash and Uber. But they say work conditions have gotten worse.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Firepath (Dec 1, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> In Tennessee, they allow stadium sports. Someone I know on Facebook just attended a football game in a huge stadium in Memphis. She said it was like a ghost town because they were limiting attendance. However there we 16,000 people in attendance and the photos looked like there were lots of people anyway. So how can TN allow that when the rest of country is close to shut down or shutting down.


They'd literally die before they gave up football.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 1, 2020)

Los Angeles County to Launch Grant Program to Help Restaurants Impacted by COVID-19 Restrictions









						Los Angeles County to Launch Grant Program to Help Restaurants Impacted by COVID-19 Restrictions
					

The Keep LA County Dining Grant will provide $30,000 to use as working capital for employee payroll expenses, capital to continue operations, payment of outstanding business expenses, and adaptive business practices needed to remain open. Preference will be given to restaurants that provided...




					covid19.lacounty.gov


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 1, 2020)

Two more examples, the mayors of San Francisco and San Jose.  I think it is time to leave the hairstylists and gym owners alone 





__





						Not Just Newsom: San Francisco, San Jose Mayors Busted Violating Own COVID Guidelines | ZeroHedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com


----------



## Cornell (Dec 2, 2020)

And another 
We are all in this together!










						As mayor urged Austin to ‘stay home,’ he was vacationing in Mexico following daughter’s wedding
					

In November, Austin Mayor Steve Adler hosted his daughter's wedding and vacationed with a group of people in Mexico.




					www.kvue.com


----------



## TravelTime (Dec 2, 2020)

It sounds like telling people what to do is a political decision, with many politicians not following their own guidance. They have more information than us so this is signaling to people that they do not really believe things are as serious.


----------



## Cornell (Dec 2, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> It sounds like telling people what to do is a political decision, with many politicians not following their own guidance. They have more information than us so this is signaling to people that they do not really believe things are as serious.


Don't forget that Gavin N was dining at The French Laundry with CEO of the California Medical Association Dustin Corcoran.  So it's medical professionals, too, not following the guidelines.  

We hear all of the time "The science is settled!".  If it were, why are these people taking such risks?


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 2, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> It sounds like telling people what to do is a political decision, with many politicians not following their own guidance. They have more information than us so this is signaling to people that they do not really believe things are as serious.



No. Politicians are failed humans, like the rest of us. This certainly isn’t the first time politicians have been caught doing something wrong. We should expect it, and not let it sway us from using common sense and staying safe. In fact, I can think of many things politicians do that I wouldn’t even consider! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## am1 (Dec 2, 2020)

Par for the course.  At election time they have voters fighting over who is better when both should be sent pink slips.


----------



## Brett (Dec 2, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> No. Politicians are failed humans, like the rest of us. This certainly isn’t the first time politicians have been caught doing something wrong. We should expect it, and not let it sway us from using common sense and staying safe. In fact, I can think of many things politicians do that I wouldn’t even consider!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



yes, some politicians are failed humans

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemima...00-north-dakota-residents-now-dead-from-covid


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 2, 2020)

Brett said:


> yes, some politicians are failed humans
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemima...00-north-dakota-residents-now-dead-from-covid


As I said before: 1.2% of the population die every year. The more false positives the more false Covid deaths in the official numbers.


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 2, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> No. Politicians are failed humans, like the rest of us. This certainly isn’t the first time politicians have been caught doing something wrong. We should expect it, and not let it sway us from using common sense and staying safe. In fact, I can think of many things politicians do that I wouldn’t even consider!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Clearly they do not believe one bit in the paranoia they created and amplified. That is for the serfs. Do you recognize the characters? A very famous fist bump about 2-3 weeks ago. The location, the US senate. Aside from  the fist bump you will notice how close the 3 were, little to no social distancing. Do they lack self preservation or there is something else going on?


----------



## Brett (Dec 2, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Clearly they do not believe one bit in the paranoia they created and amplified. That is for the serfs. Do you recognize the characters? A very famous fist bump about 2-3 weeks ago. The location, the US senate. Aside from  the fist bump you will notice how close the 3 were, little to no social distancing. Are they suicidal or there is something else going on?




*OMG !*

I hope everyone follows CDC social distance guidelines


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 2, 2020)

Brett said:


> *OMG !*
> 
> I hope everyone follows CDC social distance guidelines
> 
> View attachment 29415



Oh gawd. Some days I’m really thankful I don’t see every post.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Cornell (Dec 2, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Clearly they do not believe one bit in the paranoia they created and amplified. That is for the serfs. Do you recognize the characters? A very famous fist bump about 2-3 weeks ago. The location, the US senate. Aside from  the fist bump you will notice how close the 3 were, little to no social distancing. Do they lack self preservation or there is something else going on?
> 
> View attachment 29414


So dangerous! Reckless! And selfish .


----------



## Brett (Dec 2, 2020)

Cornell said:


> So dangerous! Reckless! And selfish .



dangerous !   reckless  !   selfish !
hopefully you stay safe 





https://www.healthline.com/health-n...mething-if-you-see-someone-not-wearing-a-mask


----------



## Cornell (Dec 2, 2020)




----------



## Ken555 (Dec 2, 2020)

We can find people doing stupid things all the time. Are you seriously justifying not adhering to science based on the stupid actions by a few, even if those few are in positions of authority? 

For that matter...this entire forum was created in part to help prevent people from making stupid timeshare purchases. C’mon, let’s get real.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## controller1 (Dec 2, 2020)

Cornell said:


> View attachment 29432



Some Aggie jokes write themselves!


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 2, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> We can find people doing stupid things all the time. Are you seriously justifying not adhering to science based on the stupid actions by a few, even if those few are in positions of authority?
> 
> For that matter...this entire forum was created in part to help prevent people from making stupid timeshare purchases. C’mon, let’s get real.
> 
> ...


You see my friend, the science is a very complicated matter actually. This top German scientist states that the quarantine should be 5 days. In the US, it was 14 until 2 days ago and now it is 10 I think. Why did it take the CDC so many months to shorten from 14 to 10 days when the science was there months ago? Canada of course is not even talking about shortening it yet.  Another set of scientists, another interpretation. How long is it going to take Hawaii to shorten it?











						‘After five days the coronavirus infectious period is over,’ says top German virologist
					

Top virologist Christian Drosten's coronavirus podcast is back. From suggesting a shorter quarantine period for people at risk of contracting the virus to discussions about immunity, here's what we learned.




					www.thelocal.de


----------



## Cornell (Dec 2, 2020)

Re:  these mayors and governors violating their social distancing rules:

It isn’t that they’re hypocrites or bad examples


It shows they’re not as afraid of covid as they claim to be, and are exaggerating the risk.


----------



## controller1 (Dec 2, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Re:  these mayors and governors violating their social distancing rules:
> 
> It isn’t that they’re hypocrites or bad examples
> 
> ...



Perhaps but I think there is a lot of "do as I say not as I do" syndrome in politics.


----------



## b2bailey (Dec 3, 2020)

beejaybeeohio said:


> Tongue-in-cheek and a sense of irony is all I meant!
> 
> 
> (Warning- this response is in jest!)
> ...


I haven't heard much about contact tracing here in CA. However, tonight there was a tv news story about a large outbreak -- 64 cases -- stemming from a church with multiple locations. A footnote to the story said the reason they named the church was due to time constraints of contact tracing efforts.


----------



## b2bailey (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I read a lot of smug moral superiority in many of these posts that people who have Covid somehow didn't do the "right" things or it could have been prevented.
> 
> Covid came into my house because my daughter works at an car dealership.  She's a gopher there.  Runs around while she's there dealing with many customers each day.  She runs service records back and forth, fetches loaner cars, processes paperwork.  Masks are required. She washes her hands.
> 
> ...


I find it fascinating that the illness hit while she was working -- not during your travels.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Re: these mayors and governors violating their social distancing rules:
> 
> It isn’t that they’re hypocrites or bad examples
> 
> ...



You could be right. Or, it could be that they simply rationalized their actions and still believe in what they’re saying. 

The numbers are increasing, the hospitals are getting full, and hundreds of thousands in this country alone are dead from this disease in less than a year. We failed as a country, and I don’t think we need to wonder if politicians are exaggerating the risk or not...it doesn’t take much common sense to answer that. Stay. Home.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 3, 2020)

The virus has been with us from December 2019, the researchers found 106 samples with coronavirus antibodies out of 7389 blood donations. Because these were random and not taken from people who were sick, had symptoms etc., we may extrapolate this to the whole US population and conclude that *4.7 million people* had the virus already by then.  How come if it was so infectious and so deadly the number of deaths at the time was not a lot higher than normal? What the heck are they not telling us?

My take is that the politicians do not believe one iota of what they are saying on TV. Same with the journalists. Look at Chris Cuomo. He was on TV every day describing his isolation in the basement and his terrible suffering, but in fact he was going outdoors to supervise his villa construction. This crisis has been very convenient for them, they have resolved a lot of items on their wish list. Same for richest people who got one trillion dollar richer while US as a whole added 10 trillions in debt (when you count the government, corporate and personal debt)











						Coronavirus Was In U.S. Weeks Earlier Than Previously Known, Study Says
					

The discovery, uncovered after analyzing blood donations from nine states, strengthens evidence that the coronavirus was quietly spreading around the world before health officials were aware.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> The virus has been with us from December 2019, the researchers found 106 samples with coronavirus antibodies out of 7389 blood donations. Because these were random and not taken from people who were sick, had symptoms etc., we may extrapolate this to the whole US population and conclude that *4.7 million people* had the virus already by then.  How come if it was so infectious and so deadly the number of deaths at the time was not a lot higher than normal? What the heck are they not telling us?
> 
> My take is that the politicians do not believe one iota of what they are saying on TV. Same with the journalists. Look at Chris Cuomo. He was on TV every day describing his isolation in the basement and his terrible suffering, but in fact he was going outdoors to supervise his villa construction. This crisis has been very convenient for them, they have resolved a lot of items on their wish list. Same for richest people who got one trillion dollar richer while US as a whole added 10 trillions in debt (when you count the government, corporate and personal debt)
> 
> ...


This is it exactly.  And I love the mayor of Austin lecturing his community about how to behave FROM HIS TIMESHARE IN CABO.  
The public service messages are absolutely laughable at this point & have zero credibility.

Oh, and my governor (IL) has his family hunkering down in FL of all places.  You know, scary FL , where they have a governor that has lifted so many restrictions.


----------



## Brett (Dec 3, 2020)

Coronavirus Was In U.S. Weeks Earlier Than Previously Known, Study Says
					

The discovery, uncovered after analyzing blood donations from nine states, strengthens evidence that the coronavirus was quietly spreading around the world before health officials were aware.




					www.npr.org
				



[/QUOTE]


Cornell said:


> This is it exactly.  And I love the mayor of Austin lecturing his community about how to behave FROM HIS TIMESHARE IN CABO.
> The public service messages are absolutely laughable at this point & have zero credibility.
> 
> Oh, and my governor (IL) has his family hunkering down in FL of all places.  You know, scary FL , where they have a governor that has lifted so many restrictions.





DannyTS said:


> The virus has been with us from December 2019, the researchers found 106 samples with coronavirus antibodies out of 7389 blood donations. Because these were random and not taken from people who were sick, had symptoms etc., we may extrapolate this to the whole US population and conclude that *4.7 million people* had the virus already by then.  How come if it was so infectious and so deadly the number of deaths at the time was not a lot higher than normal? What the heck are they not telling us?
> 
> My take is that the politicians do not believe one iota of what they are saying on TV. Same with the journalists. Look at Chris Cuomo. He was on TV every day describing his isolation in the basement and his terrible suffering, but in fact he was going outdoors to supervise his villa construction. This crisis has been very convenient for them, they have resolved a lot of items on their wish list.* Same for richest people who got one trillion dollar richer while* US as a whole added 10 trillions in debt (when you count the government, corporate and personal debt)


yes, the coronavirus is a huge conspiracy for the rich to get even richer


----------



## SueDonJ (Dec 3, 2020)

Is it supposed to be a newsflash that politicians and other known faces can be as selfishly stupid as anyone else in this country? If you didn't know it before these last few years you've certainly had it drilled into your heads since.

But by all means, let's be as stupid as they are and insist that if they can do it so can we, consequences be damned.

<eyeroll>


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> Is it supposed to be a newsflash that politicians and other known faces can be as selfishly stupid as anyone else in this country? If you didn't know it before these last few years you've certainly had it drilled into your heads since.
> 
> But by all means, let's be as stupid as they are and insist that if they can do it so can we, consequences be damned.


Let's all follow a lockdown policy that has incredible  consequences be damned.

my own eyeroll


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:
This is it exactly. And I love the mayor of Austin lecturing his community about how to behave FROM HIS TIMESHARE IN CABO.
The public service messages are absolutely laughable at this point & have zero credibility.

Oh, and my governor (IL) has his family hunkering down in FL of all places. You know, scary FL , where they have a governor that has lifted so many restrictions.



ME: @Cornell  Precisely. This is not a case where a priest in a moment of weakness is making out with a parishioner. The politicians instead just do not seem concerned about the level of risk for themselves and their beloved families.


----------



## Brett (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Let's all follow a lockdown policy that has incredible  consequences be damned.
> 
> my own eyeroll




Let's all move to North or South Dakota     -  land of the FreeDumb !


----------



## bluehende (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Re:  these mayors and governors violating their social distancing rules:
> 
> It isn’t that they’re hypocrites or bad examples
> 
> ...


For what reason?  Can you elaborate on why a politician would or anyone would do this.  And since every country in the world, every state and national health department, and all national health care worker groups agree it is a pretty big group that has this policy.  Please elaborate on this huge conspiracy you see.

Or is 279,806 deaths pretty good evidence that human nature allows us to take risks assuming it will not happen to them.  The more we hear that it hits certain ages harder, certain races harder, and with politicians we will get that great compassionate use drug that we can rationalize our behavior.


----------



## bluehende (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Let's all follow a lockdown policy that has incredible  consequences be damned.
> 
> my own eyeroll


Your plan?


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 3, 2020)

bluehende said:


> Your plan?




The  plan is simple: protect the vulnerable, let everybody else live their lives otherwise we put the future of our kids (and grandkids) in great jeopardy.


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

bluehende said:


> Your plan?


My plan - let people make their own personal choices regarding their lives -- just like our politicians and medical officials are doing for their own families. 

Open schools, open businesses. 

Protect the vulnerable.

Lockdown measures don't work.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

There’s no room for doubt any longer. 

Those who pontificate for opening schools, opening businesses, point to Sweden as a shining example of how to address Covid, decry the emotional toll on disrupting their lives, complain of politicians who make mistakes (shocker), criticize and demean scientists and health workers who have dedicated themselves to saving lives, and dismiss common sense on TUG believe fringe concepts promoted by conspiracy groups. 

Even this sickness has infiltrated TUG. Sad day on many counts.

We desperately need to teach critical thinking skills, as it’s obviously lacking in many, among other changes or else this symptom will continue. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## bluehende (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> My plan - let people make their own personal choices regarding their lives -- just like our politicians and medical officials are doing for their own families.
> 
> Open schools, open businesses.
> 
> ...


That actually looks like a lack of a plan.  And I am curious how we did much better after locking down in the spring??????  Wonder why FL, TX, and Arizona did better in the summer after they increased restrictions?????  How did Europe obtain their early success in depressing the virus if it was not lockdowns?  How has China almost eliminated it if it was not for their draconian lockdowns?  Just saying they do not work does not make it true. While there is a lot of discussion to be had as to what to close and stay open the restrictions do work.  The three areas I know had pretty hard restrictions did the best soon after.  They are Wuhan, Italy, and Madrid.   Please show how 1 area depressed an ongoing outbreak without increasing restrictions.  The same restrictions that have been championed by everyone in the know since March.   Wear a mask.  Limit interactions.   Wash your hands.  As to safety we have always limited those personal decisions.  I cannot shot gun a 12 pack and go see if my car can hit 100 in a school zone.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

bluehende said:


> That actually looks like a lack of a plan.



It will just magically go away...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## vacationtime1 (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> It will just magically go away...



It *will* just magically go away...  ...  ... after about a million Americans die.

It *will* just magically go away...  ...  ... because scientists (scientists = people who study and believe in science) created a vaccine.

But to many people, it will have just magically gone away.


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> There’s no room for doubt any longer.
> 
> Those who pontificate for opening schools, opening businesses, point to Sweden as a shining example of how to address Covid, decry the emotional toll on disrupting their lives, complain of politicians who make mistakes (shocker), criticize and demean scientists and health workers who have dedicated themselves to saving lives, and dismiss common sense on TUG believe fringe concepts promoted by conspiracy groups.
> 
> ...


1) Mr. Fauci is now for opening the schools. Do you include him in the group that promotes "conspiracies"?

2) Concerning the "teaching the critical thinking skills", obviously intended as an insult, don't you think that we actually see your side AND incorporate a lot of other information before coming to our own conclusion? If anything, our thinking is the result of more work and more thinking not less. The fact that many of us have  statistical, math, engineering backgrounds  and have a trained eye in spotting  inconsistencies in the official numbers should make you reflect a bit more.


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 3, 2020)

vacationtime1 said:


> It *will* just magically go away...  ...  ... after about a million Americans die.
> 
> It *will* just magically go away...  ...  ... because scientists (scientists = people who study and believe in science) created a vaccine.
> 
> But to many people, it will have just magically gone away.


Those at risk can stay home. Those that are not can live their lives. It is not a matter of the virus going away or not. Especially knowing that God knows, another virus will come along sooner or later.


----------



## vacationtime1 (Dec 3, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Those at risk can stay home. Those that are not can live their lives. It is not a matter of the virus going away or not. Especially knowing that God knows, another virus will come along sooner or later.



A million people dying is a big deal to me.  YMMV


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> 1) Mr. Fauci is now for opening the schools. Do you include him in the group that promotes "conspiracies"?
> 
> 2) Concerning the "teaching the critical thinking skills", obviously intended as an insult, don't you think that we actually see your side AND incorporate a lot of other information before coming to our own conclusion? If anything, our thinking is the result of more work and more thinking not less. The fact that many of us have strong statistical, math, engineering backgrounds  and have a trained eye in spotting  inconsistencies in the official numbers should make you reflect a bit more.


But Danny - the science is settled.  Period.


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 3, 2020)

vacationtime1 said:


> A million people dying is a big deal to me.  YMMV


Donate ALL your money to defeat the world hunger. Or that is not a big deal to you? 9 million people die from hunger every year.

*





						The World Counts
					






					www.theworldcounts.com
				



*


----------



## Brett (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> My plan - let people make their own personal choices regarding their lives -- just like our politicians and medical officials are doing for their own families.
> 
> Open schools, open businesses.
> 
> ...



Like others have indicated that's not a pandemic plan -  just everyone doing their own thing


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> But Danny - the science is settled. Period.



You keep writing this as if it is true, when it’s not. One of the more concerning unknown areas are the long term implications of Covid. 

As for transmission...well, yes, the science is fairly clear. Asymptomatic spread is high which is why opening businesses and schools is not the smartest choice.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## geekette (Dec 3, 2020)

The US did not do "lock down".   Brief shut downs lifted too soon in too many areas.  Some areas went along with what other areas were doing but had no reason to lock down without the virus in its community.    I understand why residents in those areas feel they lost everything 'for nothing', as it might not be until now that they have a real problem.  

It's not so simple to say lock downs didn't work when they were never actually implemented here in a way that would have made them effective.   New York did in fact restrict residents to a level at which spread did come down.  They haven't been "a hot spot" since very early in this.   VERY early in this.


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> You keep writing this as if it is true, when it’s not. One of the more concerning unknown areas are the long term implications of Covid.
> 
> As for transmission...well, yes, the science is fairly clear. Asymptomatic spread is high which is why opening businesses and schools is not the smartest choice.
> 
> ...


Every virus, including the flu have had long term implications. This is another scare tactic* without a base line for comparison *and another proof that your analysis is lacking "critical thinking"


----------



## geekette (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> You keep writing this as if it is true, when it’s not. One of the more concerning unknown areas are the long term implications of Covid.
> 
> As for transmission...well, yes, the science is fairly clear. Asymptomatic spread is high which is why opening businesses and schools is not the smartest choice.
> 
> ...


Yes, this is still a new virus in science-time.   Very little is "settled".


----------



## geekette (Dec 3, 2020)

bluehende said:


> That actually looks like a lack of a plan.  And I am curious how we did much better after locking down in the spring??????  Wonder why FL, TX, and Arizona did better in the summer after they increased restrictions?????  How did Europe obtain their early success in depressing the virus if it was not lockdowns?  How has China almost eliminated it if it was not for their draconian lockdowns?  Just saying they do not work does not make it true. While there is a lot of discussion to be had as to what to close and stay open the restrictions do work.  The three areas I know had pretty hard restrictions did the best soon after.  They are Wuhan, Italy, and Madrid.   Please show how 1 area depressed an ongoing outbreak without increasing restrictions.  The same restrictions that have been championed by everyone in the know since March.   Wear a mask.  Limit interactions.   Wash your hands.  As to safety we have always limited those personal decisions.  I cannot shot gun a 12 pack and go see if my car can hit 100 in a school zone.


I think the welcoming of masses for the Sturgis motorcycle rally shows that not holding the event would have been a better choice for the Dakotas.   "Lock down" implies nobody moving around outside their homes.   Simply cancelling an event could have spared a lot of suffering and death, no "lock down" necessary.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

geekette said:


> I think the welcoming of masses for the Sturgis motorcycle rally shows that not holding the event would have been a better choice for the Dakotas. "Lock down" implies nobody moving around outside their homes. Simply cancelling an event could have spared a lot of suffering and death, no "lock down" necessary.



Yes. This is why the new restrictions for Los Angeles are not likely to be effective, though they may slow the increase so that the hospitals can cope (at least, that’s my hope at this point).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Laurie (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> My plan - let people make their own personal "choices" regarding their lives ...



So where do your personal choices and rights end, and mine begin? I relinquish many personal choices and rights when my actions endanger you -- and vice versa. 

This back-and-forth argument goes on forever, as if there aren't 2 sets of conflicting rights and choices. Were these folks exercising their personal choices?









						Couple Arrested After Boarding Flight To Hawaii While Infected With COVID-19
					

The man and woman were charged with second-degree reckless endangerment, Hawaii police said.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## cman (Dec 3, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> 1) Mr. Fauci is now for opening the schools. Do you include him in the group that promotes "conspiracies"?


Dr. Fauci didn't change his position. From the beginning he has consistently stated that "the default position is to reopen the schools". He's been saying the same thing since this summer.
This clip is from July;


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 3, 2020)

cman said:


> Dr. Fauci didn't change his position. From the beginning he has consistently stated that "the default position is to reopen the schools". He's been saying the same thing since this summer.
> This clip is from July;


I stand corrected. Great, now according to Ken's logic he is part of those that favor conspiracy theories.


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 3, 2020)

Laurie said:


> So where do your personal choices and rights end, and mine begin? I relinquish many personal choices and rights when my actions endanger you -- and vice versa.
> 
> This back-and-forth argument goes on forever, as if there aren't 2 sets of conflicting rights and choices. Were these folks exercising their personal choices?
> 
> ...



Nobody is endangering you. If you think you are at risk (and you and your doctor are in the best position to judge that) , just stay home. Let the others live.


----------



## Brett (Dec 3, 2020)

Laurie said:


> So where do your personal choices and rights end, and mine begin? I relinquish many personal choices and rights when my actions endanger you -- and vice versa.
> 
> This back-and-forth argument goes on forever, as if there aren't 2 sets of conflicting rights and choices. Were these folks exercising their personal choices?
> 
> ...



"corona mania"







*https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oregon-doctor-staff-refuse-wear-masks-during-pandemic-calling-covid-n1249737*


----------



## Laurie (Dec 3, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Nobody is endangering you. If you think you are at risk (and you and your doctor are in the best position to judge that) , just stay home. Let the others live.


By this logic, there should be no laws, no licensing, no restrictions, and no penalties for anything. Speed limits? Licensing for operating a vehicle? I mean, you could just stay home, never drive or ride in a vehicle, if you believe no restrictions on the road actually endanger you. Can you shoot me because you feel like pulling a trigger, it just feels good? If so, I suppose I could just stay in my house behind bulletproof doors, if I feel "endangered".

In any decent human society, we all give up some "personal choices and freedoms" because they endanger others. Why should public health risk be different?


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

Laurie said:


> By this logic, there should be no laws, no licensing, no restrictions, and no penalties for anything. Speed limits? Licensing for operating a vehicle? I mean, you could just stay home, never drive or ride in a vehicle, if you believe no restrictions on the road actually endanger you. Can you shoot me because you feel like pulling a trigger, it just feels good? If so, I suppose I could just stay in my house behind bulletproof doors, if I feel "endangered".
> 
> In any decent human society, we all give up some "personal choices and freedoms" because they endanger others. Why should public health risk be different?


Seat belts , speed limits, etc are all LAWS voted on by legislatures.


----------



## am1 (Dec 3, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Nobody is endangering you. If you think you are at risk (and you and your doctor are in the best position to judge that) , just stay home. Let the others live.





DannyTS said:


> The  plan is simple: protect the vulnerable, let everybody else live their lives otherwise we put the future of our kids (and grandkids) in great jeopardy.



How can you protect the vulnerable but let everyone else live normally?  Bubbles for nursing homes, hospitals, jails etc where workers stay in the bubble for a certain amount of time and then leave but when they come back they quarantine for 14 days or test negative?  

What about the people who do not know they are vulnerable?  Or the ones that are vulnerable but do not care?  Then the people who are not vulnerable but get sick anyways at a faster rate then now.


----------



## bluehende (Dec 3, 2020)

am1 said:


> How can you protect the vulnerable but let everyone else live normally?  Bubbles for nursing homes, hospitals, jails etc where workers stay in the bubble for a certain amount of time and then leave but when they come back they quarantine for 14 days or test negative?
> 
> What about the people who do not know they are vulnerable?  Or the ones that are vulnerable but do not care?  Then the people who are not vulnerable but get sick anyways at a faster rate then now.


If you look at the cdc guidelines for who gets the vaccine.  The old and vulnerable number 100 million in their plan.  Wonder how long those living normally will be willing to support those 100 million.


----------



## SueDonJ (Dec 3, 2020)

The nature of a pandemic is that we're all vulnerable to one degree or another. This virus has afflicted, and claimed the lives of, people who don't fit in any of the convenient categories that the proceed-at-your-own-risk proponents choose to wrongly believe are the ONLY people who can suffer its immediate effects, never mind the unknown toll it will take on long-haulers and our medical infrastructure for decades to come. But even if we could judge for ourselves exactly what our risks are and whether we want to accept them as the cost of, literally, doing business as usual, I still haven't heard any good explanation of why ANYBODY thinks they have the absolute right to endanger the health of the millions of people who work in the health care industry.

All over this country medical workers are putting their own lives on the line every damned day with not enough PPE, not enough leave to rejuvenate from the horror they're witnessing, not enough support in the form of the rest of us agreeing to follow simple pandemic guidelines, not enough attention paid to their plight. They don't get to say that they can't do their jobs because they're high-risk, to say that they're sick and damned tired of treating patients who did nothing to stop themselves from getting/spreading the disease, to say that they want to start triaging patients based on whether or not they dabble in stupid conspiracy theories about the disease that fells them.

I just can't with the selfish stupidity anymore. I have loved ones who are health care workers, loved ones who are teachers, loved ones who are emergency first responders. If you can't stay home and stop bitching about a three-week lockdown that would severely restrict COVID's spread while at the same time demanding that your government allocate the funds to make it happen, and truly give the people who are on the front lines a chance to protect themselves as well as their patients, the very least you can do is outright admit that you are putting your needs above all others simply because you can.


----------



## Luanne (Dec 3, 2020)

When people say that we should "protect the vulnerable" but then in the same breath say everyone else should be allowed to go about their business, my belief is they don't understand what protecting the vulnerable means.


----------



## SueDonJ (Dec 3, 2020)

Luanne said:


> When people say that we should "protect the vulnerable" but then in the same breath say everyone else should be allowed to go about their business, my belief is they don't understand what protecting the vulnerable means.



Evidently it means that the vulnerable should be locked away where their existence won't have to be acknowledged by those who are inconvenienced by them.


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> Evidently it means that the vulnerable should be locked away where their existence won't have to be acknowledged by those who are inconvenienced by them.


Seriously?  My mother is in assisted living and is truly locked away right now.  If you think her existence doesn't need to be acknowledged by me or my family , then you are sorely mistaken.


----------



## Laurie (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Seat belts , speed limits, etc are all LAWS voted on by legislatures.


I doubt any legislature got together to decide to put a stop sign at the end of my street. 

But if they had, would you willingly accept public health rules regarding covid that become LAWS voted on by legislatures?

I agree with SueDonJ above -- there aren't 2 distinct groups of us, vulnerable and invulnerable, in spite of what this narrative implies. There are degrees, %'s, but most people who haven't had covid are currently at some degree of life-and-death risk.


----------



## SueDonJ (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Seriously?  My mother is in assisted living and is truly locked away right now.  If you think her existence doesn't need to be acknowledged by me or my family , then you are sorely mistaken.



Yes, seriously. Like every other person who has loved ones working at/living in longterm care facilities, I would think you of all people should be advocating for all of society to behave responsibly enough through this pandemic so that those patients/residents can be visited by their loved ones!

Here in MA where the pandemic was raging in the early days, we took the drastic step of a lockdown and it made a difference! Most of our schools are at least hybrid with teachers in classrooms and students attending at least part-time, with occasional temporary shutdowns when a positive case is found. Most of our longterm care facilities are open to visitors, albeit in much more restricted settings and on a by-appointment basis. I really wish you could have the same.

I don't know why your state is so locked down but I suspect it may have something to do with the fact that while up here in the northeast we for the most part accepted the necessity of a lockdown, states to the west and south of us had a little bit of time while COVID hadn't presented itself to glom onto and spread the ridiculous, "they won't take away my freedom" stance that doomed you from the start. But since reality has hit, if the numbers in your state are such that public health authorities are advising the govt authorities that a lockdown could work, your problem isn't with the public health authorities - it's with the people who live there who are not actively trying to slow the spread. Rant and rave at them, not at the people whose actual responsibilities are the health and safety of all of their constituents!

Like everywhere our numbers our ticking up again, both because people have let down their guards and because the freedom brigade has taken a slight hold. It's looking more and more like another shutdown is looming and my fear is that people won't have the same patience this time around.


----------



## SueDonJ (Dec 3, 2020)

The more I read here the more I think we are in agreement more than we may realize. One question, for me, that would really separate the two distinct camps that have taken over (and doomed IMO) this country's response to COVID-19 is:

Did it make any reasonable sense at all to you to see the millions of people traveling through US airports for the Thanksgiving holiday?


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

cman said:


> Dr. Fauci didn't change his position. From the beginning he has consistently stated that "the default position is to reopen the schools". He's been saying the same thing since this summer.
> This clip is from July;



Exactly. I posted this point yesterday. This is a great clip and is a good example that he did not say all schools should close. Note specifically that he discusses an on-going study on the transmission between children and adults. I don’t believe that study has ended (anyone?) and when it does none of us should be surprised if his recommendation changes, since at that point new information (based on science) would enable him to justify an update. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> The more I read here the more I think we are in agreement more than we may realize. One question, for me, that would really separate the two distinct camps that have taken over (and doomed IMO) this country's response to COVID-19 is:
> 
> Did it make any reasonable sense at all to you to see the millions of people traveling through US airports for the Thanksgiving holiday?



I received calls and texts from friends with whom I have been discussing Covid since the beginning, and some were in tears just thinking of all those who will doubtless become infected and die from the needless travel over Thanksgiving. 

We must make humane decisions that benefit all whenever possible, and sadly that’s exactly the type of decision which this country has been singularly unable to make for decades. 

The result we see today is exactly what I predicted in February when I told a good friend that we are going to experience a disaster the likes of which are normally only in movies or books.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> Like everywhere our numbers our ticking up again, both because people have let down their guards and because the freedom brigade has taken a slight hold. It's looking more and more like another shutdown is looming and my fear is that people won't have the same patience this time around.



Covid fatigue is real and is likely to be a contributing factor to the failure of government and our society to have an effective lockdown (lots of good articles on this if you’re interested). The vaccines cannot come soon enough.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SueDonJ (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> I received calls and texts from friends with whom I have been discussing Covid since the beginning, and some were in tears just thinking of all those who will doubtless become infected and die from the needless travel over Thanksgiving.
> 
> We must make humane decisions that benefit all whenever possible, and sadly that’s exactly the type of decision which this country has been singularly unable to make for decades.
> 
> ...



Early on when the northeast was mostly of a single mind as to the need for a lockdown, I thought we may have had a chance. That optimism turned to pessimism with seeing protests in the streets despite the leaders calling for protesters to at least wear masks. That pessimism turned to doom when other large groups were encouraged to gather without following any of the suggested warnings. The Sturgis Bike fiasco, professional sports teams getting access to testing supplies and PPE while health care workers across the country were going without, colleges opening up without policing necessary social distancing, Thanksgiving travel, and whatever other unnecessary gatherings were allowed to take place ... with a paralyzed government refusing to work on solutions ... there's simply a lack of can-do spirit overtaking this country that I never would have imagined back in January. We really are our own worst enemies.

_[Edited to remove content that has been politically construed.]_


----------



## MULTIZ321 (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Exactly. I posted this point yesterday. This is a great clip and is a good example that he did not say all schools should close. Note specifically that he discusses an on-going study on the transmission between children and adults. I don’t believe that study has ended (anyone?) and when it does none of us should be surprised if his recommendation changes, since at that point new information (based on science) would enable him to justify an update.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Hi. Ken,

Older Children Spread the Coronavirus Just 
as Much as Adults, Large Study Finds.










						Older Children Spread the Coronavirus Just as Much as Adults, Large Study Finds
					

The study of nearly 65,000 people in South Korea suggests that school reopenings will trigger more outbreaks.




					www.nytimes.com
				



.


Richard


----------



## bluehende (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Seat belts , speed limits, etc are all LAWS voted on by legislatures.


From the Illinois constitution....bolded mine

SECTION 6. POWERS OF HOME RULE UNITS
    (a)  A County which has a chief executive officer elected
by the electors of the county and any municipality which has
a population of more than 25,000 are home rule units. Other
municipalities may elect by referendum to become home rule
units. Except as limited by this Section, a home rule unit
may exercise any power and perform any function pertaining to
its government and affairs including, but not limited to, *the
power to regulate for the protection of the public health,*
safety, morals and welfare; to license; to tax; and to incur
debt.


----------



## am1 (Dec 3, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> Early on when the northeast was mostly of a single mind as to the need for a lockdown, I thought we may have had a chance. That optimism turned to pessimism with seeing protests in the streets despite the leaders calling for protesters to at least wear masks. That pessimism turned to doom when other large groups were encouraged to gather without following any of the suggested warnings. The Sturgis Bike fiasco, professional sports teams getting access to testing supplies and PPE while health care workers across the country were going without, colleges opening up without policing necessary social distancing, Thanksgiving travel, and whatever other unnecessary gatherings were allowed to take place ... with a paralyzed government refusing to work on solutions ... there's simply a lack of can-do spirit overtaking this country that I never would have imagined back in January. We really are our own worst enemies.
> 
> _[Edited to remove content that has been politically construed.]_



Wearing masks but not social distancing.

_[Edited to reflect OP's edits.]_


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

MULTIZ321 said:


> Hi. Ken,
> 
> Older Children Spread the Coronavirus Just
> as Much as Adults, Large Study Finds.
> ...



Yes, exactly. I posted this info yesterday...and is why simply saying “fauci said schools should open” is not correct, and that he never said it so clearly and without qualifications.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

bluehende said:


> From the Illinois constitution....bolded mine
> 
> SECTION 6. POWERS OF HOME RULE UNITS
> (a) A County which has a chief executive officer elected
> ...



It always surprises me how little people know about how government actually works. And this is after we have had Google to help for decades! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DrQ (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> My plan - let people make their own personal choices regarding their lives -- just like our politicians and medical officials are doing for their own families.
> 
> Open schools, open businesses.
> 
> ...


They have tried that. Look at El Paso, TX.

The problem with that logic is that when your health system is over-run and the ICU's are full and you have a medical emergency, you can still die from "COVID" even if you don't have the virus.


----------



## am1 (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Now we are off topic. Please take this to another thread before this turns overtly political.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You are right.  I did not make thread political, but a moderator.


----------



## klpca (Dec 3, 2020)

Seeing everyone still arguing about this after all these months is really incredible. 

I'm not going into any detail here on a public forum, but both my family and my husband's family were directly affected by covid last weekend in hospital settings. Those who can discuss this in an abstract way are in a luxurious position.


----------



## SueDonJ (Dec 3, 2020)

am1 said:


> You are right.  I did not make thread political, but a moderator.



It wasn't intended in the way that you're taking it, only meant to infer that I don't care who is in the streets - I don't think anybody should be.

I apologize for the unintended offshoot and have done some editing/deleting to hopefully end it here.


----------



## am1 (Dec 3, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> It wasn't intended in the way that you're taking it, only meant to infer that I don't care who is in the streets - I don't think anybody should be.
> 
> I apologize for the unintended offshoot and have done some editing/deleting to hopefully end it here.



We can agree on that.  Sadly people are selfish feel like they can do what they want even if they feel it is not going to affect anyone else or in the case of the protestors do not care who it affects.


----------



## MOXJO7282 (Dec 3, 2020)

klpca said:


> Seeing everyone still arguing about this after all these months is really incredible.
> 
> I'm not going into any detail here on a public forum, but both my family and my husband's family were directly affected by covid last weekend in hospital settings. Those who can discuss this in an abstract way are in a luxurious position.


Those that minimizes the severity or talk about civil liberties would change their tune quickly if they were staring down the end of a ventilator tube. My daughter is a covid nurse and she she's many come to that realization. Some too late.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

Dec 3:

Worldwide and nationwide (per Johns Hopkins University)
Worldwide confirmed cases: 64,977,782 (up 673,050 from yesterday*)
Worldwide deaths: 1,501,907 (up 13,394 from yesterday*)
Worldwide recoveries: 41,705,009 (up 445,306 from yesterday*)
US confirmed cases: 14,061,616 (up 192,255 from yesterday*)
US deaths: 275,256 (up 2,704 from yesterday*)
Countries/regions affected thus far: 191


----------



## Vagabonder (Dec 3, 2020)

Just watched our Governor announcing the new California restrictions, I have an RCI trip booked to an individual cabin along North Coast, for cash, starting on Jan.1,2021,  and it looks like 1. I am directed to not travel (although it is one hr. in a car) and 2. All lodging is directed to only serve critical need  essential workers.  I will do my utmost to stop the spread, and know of many impacted directly and indirectly.  It seems like RCI no longer has liberal cancellation so I guess I will have to take it up with the Resort if they are ordered to turn away leisure guests. Watch out if you have any CALI travel planned in next month+


----------



## tlwmkw (Dec 3, 2020)

I have refrained from contributing much about Covid but I am a medical worker and see Covid patients in my line of work. I have to wear layers of PPE and N95 masks with face shield and gloves. Despite that I am still at risk for getting this disease. It really upsets me to hear people deny that the virus exists and also claim that it only affects a small “at risk” group. I have seen young people (in their 20’s) severely infected and intubated with this disease. Many with no “underlying” disease except for obesity, which a common condition in our society, and often not even that. Even if they survive they often have long term problems as a result and one young woman I have worked with has had a total personality change and memory loss and her family says she is no longer the same person- not exactly the seasonal flu. Even some mild cases end up with long term respiratory issues. Again not just the seasonal flu.
The biggest joke is anyone who says that the “at risk” can shelter at home. If they are at home they still need to get groceries, have work done on their houses, go to medical and other appointments, etc. All of these activities are unavoidable for them but Covid deniers put them at risk because they feel that their civil rights are being impinged on because they do not want to wear masks or wash their hands! If nudists all said “it infringes on my rights to wear clothes so I will just go without” then would the deniers support them and not enforce indecency laws? And public nudity puts no one at medical risk. Of course they wouldn’t!
To say Fauci has flip flopped is ridiculous too- he makes statements based on known information at that time. As time goes on and new research emerges the knowledge changes and so new statements and policies are made. That is not flip flopping it is just adapting as new information becomes available. Any successful business does the same- if evidence shows a business plan is flawed then you change it or your business fails.
The bottom line is that we should ALL protect ourselves and others by wearing masks and following guidelines. It really isn’t much to ask. There is no risk to wearing a mask other than a slight discomfort which we can all get over with practice. It’s not like we are going to war against the Nazis with a high likelihood of death by landing on fortified beaches with little to no protection from the bullets of our enemy.
Rant over.


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 3, 2020)

Laurie said:


> By this logic, there should be no laws, no licensing, no restrictions, and no penalties for anything. Speed limits? Licensing for operating a vehicle? I mean, you could just stay home, never drive or ride in a vehicle, if you believe no restrictions on the road actually endanger you. Can you shoot me because you feel like pulling a trigger, it just feels good? If so, I suppose I could just stay in my house behind bulletproof doors, if I feel "endangered".
> 
> In any decent human society, we all give up some "personal choices and freedoms" because they endanger others. Why should public health risk be different?


Do you recognize that lockdowns and restrictions put other people in danger?. The global poverty has skyrocketed this year. Mexico alone has added 10 million people on the poverty list. Being pauper in a poor country is life threatening. More than Covid believe it or not and with a lot more long term consequences. A family of 4,5 or 6 that needs to feed their kids may see this very differently than you. There is no "we do it for the safety", it is more like: I care more about me than about those I do not see. Most scientists, including Mr Fauci, recognize now that lockdowns cause more harm than good but they seem to be trendy again in some states.

And it is not just the poor countries. US has spent 10 trillion dollars so far. You did spent the money, you just did not see the bill yet.


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 3, 2020)

tlwmkw said:


> I have refrained from contributing much about Covid but I am a medical worker and see Covid patients in my line of work. I have to wear layers of PPE and N95 masks with face shield and gloves. Despite that I am still at risk for getting this disease. It really upsets me to hear people deny that the virus exists and also claim that it only affects a small “at risk” group. I have seen young people (in their 20’s) severely infected and intubated with this disease. Many with no “underlying” disease except for obesity, which a common condition in our society, and often not even that. Even if they survive they often have long term problems as a result and one young woman I have worked with has had a total personality change and memory loss and her family says she is no longer the same person- not exactly the seasonal flu. Even some mild cases end up with long term respiratory issues. Again not just the seasonal flu.
> The biggest joke is anyone who says that the “at risk” can shelter at home. If they are at home they still need to get groceries, have work done on their houses, go to medical and other appointments, etc. All of these activities are unavoidable for them but Covid deniers put them at risk because they feel that their civil rights are being impinged on because they do not want to wear masks or wash their hands! If nudists all said “it infringes on my rights to wear clothes so I will just go without” then would the deniers support them and not enforce indecency laws? And public nudity puts no one at medical risk. Of course they wouldn’t!
> To say Fauci has flip flopped is ridiculous too- he makes statements based on known information at that time. As time goes on and new research emerges the knowledge changes and so new statements and policies are made. That is not flip flopping it is just adapting as new information becomes available. Any successful business does the same- if evidence shows a business plan is flawed then you change it or your business fails.
> The bottom line is that we should ALL protect ourselves and others by wearing masks and following guidelines. It really isn’t much to ask. There is no risk to wearing a mask other than a slight discomfort which we can all get over with practice. It’s not like we are going to war against the Nazis with a high likelihood of death by landing on fortified beaches with little to no protection from the bullets of our enemy.
> Rant over.



I am for masks in public, indoor places. But do you know what is the actual reduction in the transmission of the virus due to the cloth  masks that everyone seems to be wearing? If you have to wear a mask, buy a surgical one folks.
A judge just ordered LA to explain scientifically why they want to ban outdoor dining. I think we will have a good laugh once we see how many decisions are being taken from the gut actually. And by the way, why would not everyone want to see how these decisions are being made in the first place? I have never seen officials making so many decisions with little to no transparent justification to the public. 








						Judge rules LA County must show cause for ban on outdoor dining
					

The decision came just a week after the California Restaurant Association's initial request to block the measure was denied.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Brett (Dec 3, 2020)

https://www.mediaite.com/news/stagg...ue-coronavirus-death-toll-is-now-near-400000/


----------



## Brett (Dec 3, 2020)

The_* Covid Delusional  *_







*https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-disbelief-saddles-health-care-workers-with-another-challenge-11606991401*


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Do you recognize that lockdowns and restrictions put other people in danger?. The global poverty has skyrocketed this year. Mexico alone has added 10 million people on the poverty list. Being pauper in a poor country is life threatening. More than Covid believe it or not and with a lot more long term consequences. A family of 4,5 or 6 that needs to feed their kids may see this very differently than you. There is no "we do it for the safety", it is more like: I care more about me than about those I do not see. Most scientists, including Mr Fauci, recognize now that lockdowns cause more harm than good but they seem to be trendy again in some states.
> 
> And it is not just the poor countries. US has spent 10 trillion dollars so far. You did spent the money, you just did not see the bill yet.


And the complete shoulder shrugging that society has for what we are doing to our children just blows my mind.


----------



## Brett (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> And the complete shoulder shrugging that society has for what we are doing to our children just blows my mind.



Really,  does society completely shrug their shoulders ?


or is it a mind that's blown







*https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/12/02/kids-vaccine-delay/*


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

Brett said:


> Really,  does society completely shrug their shoulders ?
> 
> 
> or is it a mind that's blown
> ...


YUP - no vaccines for kids next fall .  Another year where the kids won't be in school.


----------



## Brett (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> YUP - no vaccines for kids next fall .  Another year where the kids won't be in school.



actually some kids are in school - virtually and physically

Where I live it's  ... 

yeah, I know.  you live in a ___________


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> And the complete shoulder shrugging that society has for what we are doing to our children just blows my mind.



What blows my mind is the callous disregard for other humans. This entire mess became a nightmare because ignorant covidiots ignored common sense and continued to congregate, refused to wear masks, and then began to distrust the testing (without testing there would be less cases, and such nonsense), etc etc. This is the true calamity facing our society - the inability to think of others and act accordingly. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> What blows my mind is the callous disregard for other humans. This entire mess became a nightmare because ignorant covidiots ignored common sense and continued to congregate, refused to wear masks, and then began to distrust the testing (without testing there would be less cases, and such nonsense), etc etc. This is the true calamity facing our society - the inability to think of others and act accordingly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Name calling always helps make a point.

Just the other day the moderator deleted a comment for calling someone "stupid".  Let's see if "Covidiot" is acceptable on TUG.  I'm guessing it it.


----------



## Brett (Dec 3, 2020)




----------



## DannyTS (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> What blows my mind is the callous disregard for other humans. This entire mess became a nightmare because ignorant covidiots ignored common sense and continued to congregate, refused to wear masks, and then began to distrust the testing (without testing there would be less cases, and such nonsense), etc etc. This is the true calamity facing our society - the inability to think of others and act accordingly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No, the whole thing is a mess because scientists and politicians decided on  measures without any consideration that everybody is different and responds differently and for a different amount of time. Blaming one person or another is as ridiculous as saying that if everybody got straight A's in school the education system would be better. Except of course that grades are normally distributed around an average and public policy has to take into consideration what can be done and cannot be done. If you were right we would have gotten rid of the virus back in April after 6 weeks of lockdown and trillions of dollars spent.


----------



## SueDonJ (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Name calling always helps make a point.
> 
> Just the other day the moderator deleted a comment for calling someone "stupid".  Let's see if "Covidiot" is acceptable on TUG.  I'm guessing it it.



I'm in the thick of this thread so probably shouldn't be the one moderator being relied upon to moderate it, too. My comment today was both criticized in the thread and reported so I wasn't the only moderator involved in reviewing/correcting what needed to be corrected. If you think something needs to be moderated you should be reporting it.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

Brett said:


> View attachment 29494







__





						Urban Dictionary: Covidiot
					

Relating to the 2020 Covid-19 virus: Someone who ignores the warnings regarding public health or safety. A person who hoards goods, denying them from their neighbors.




					www.urbandictionary.com
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Yeah, this is typical. Your reply focuses on a single word and not the message. This is what I’ve learned from your posts...your ability to ignore the point and focus on a particular perspective only that justifies your bizarre, and fact-less, position.
> 
> I’m exhausted by the constant increases in covid cases, deaths, and related illnesses (including those adversely impacted by the economic challenges). But sure, let’s focus on a single word. How about instead of complaining about covidiot (if the shoe fits...), how about the word “science”, and say it with respect.
> 
> ...


Covidiot has been accepted and promoted from the very beginning. How about "Lockidiot"?


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Yeah, this is typical. Your reply focuses on a single word and not the message. This is what I’ve learned from your posts...your ability to ignore the point and focus on a particular perspective only that justifies your bizarre, and fact-less, position.
> 
> I’m exhausted by the constant increases in covid cases, deaths, and related illnesses (including those adversely impacted by the economic challenges). But sure, let’s focus on a single word. How about instead of complaining about covidiot (if the shoe fits...), how about the word “science”, and say it with respect.
> 
> ...


Why don't you put my on your ignore list then if I'm a :  covidiot, bizarre, factless, and selfish?  It's really quite simple.  Then you wouldn't be so frustrated & angry & exhausted.  

And @SueDonJ  Reporting Ken here for saying the "shoe fits" to me in regards to "covidiot".


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 3, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> I'm in the thick of this thread so probably shouldn't be the one moderator being relied upon to moderate it, too. My comment today was both criticized in the thread and reported so I wasn't the only moderator involved in reviewing/correcting what needed to be corrected. If you think something needs to be moderated you should be reporting it.


You are doing very well Sue.  We totally understand that is not easy to be on the sidelines all the time and quite frankly you have the same rights to express your opinion like everyone else. With that being said, we also hope you do not use your "superpowers" at the same time


----------



## DannyTS (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


do you truly want me to write other words that are in the Urban dictionary?


----------



## DrQ (Dec 3, 2020)

tlwmkw said:


> I have refrained from contributing much about Covid but I am a medical worker and see Covid patients in my line of work. I have to wear layers of PPE and N95 masks with face shield and gloves. Despite that I am still at risk for getting this disease.


THANK YOU for the hard work you are doing!!!


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> do you truly want me to write other words that are in the Urban dictionary?


LOL LOL -- there are a couple of relevant definitions


----------



## SueDonJ (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> And the complete shoulder shrugging that society has for what we are doing to our children just blows my mind.



What we're doing to our children, what we're doing to the parents of those children who have no choice but to work essential jobs despite dwindling or non-existent schools/childcare options, what we're doing to our teachers, what we're doing to those at highest risk, what we're doing to restaurant and travel industry owners/workers, what we're doing to our health care providers ... none of it is working! Just because we all might be more focused on one segment of society doesn't mean that any of us have forgotten the others, but it doesn't seem like any of it can be solved until we have a clear, concise, universal response that considers the ongoing needs of every person impacted, and generous allocations from the government that will allow us to implement that response. And yes, I understand that bill will come due some day, but if ever there was a need for it that time is now.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Why don't you put my on your ignore list then if I'm a : covidiot, bizarre, factless, and selfish? It's really quite simple. Then you wouldn't be so frustrated & angry & exhausted.
> 
> And @SueDonJ Reporting Ken here for saying the "shoe fits" to me in regards to "covidiot".



It’s not just you...and if we block everyone, then we will simply increase the isolation we have and wouldn’t learn of other opinions. It’s not just that I disagree with you...it’s that I don’t see facts to support your position, and every time you are challenged on this point you deflect and change the topic. I certainly don’t mean this to be personal, yet I can see how my comments can be construed that way. I suspect we would have a very different (and likely productive) conversation if this was not on an impersonal message board like TUG.

ETA: covidiot, as detailed in the link I posted, is appropriate for those who ignore health recommendations. By your own comments, that’s you! This is not an insult, it’s just another word to say that you do not subscribe to recommendations from the health authorities. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SueDonJ (Dec 3, 2020)

tlwmkw said:


> I have refrained from contributing much about Covid but I am a medical worker and see Covid patients in my line of work. I have to wear layers of PPE and N95 masks with face shield and gloves. Despite that I am still at risk for getting this disease. It really upsets me to hear people deny that the virus exists and also claim that it only affects a small “at risk” group. I have seen young people (in their 20’s) severely infected and intubated with this disease. Many with no “underlying” disease except for obesity, which a common condition in our society, and often not even that. Even if they survive they often have long term problems as a result and one young woman I have worked with has had a total personality change and memory loss and her family says she is no longer the same person- not exactly the seasonal flu. Even some mild cases end up with long term respiratory issues. Again not just the seasonal flu.
> The biggest joke is anyone who says that the “at risk” can shelter at home. If they are at home they still need to get groceries, have work done on their houses, go to medical and other appointments, etc. All of these activities are unavoidable for them but Covid deniers put them at risk because they feel that their civil rights are being impinged on because they do not want to wear masks or wash their hands! If nudists all said “it infringes on my rights to wear clothes so I will just go without” then would the deniers support them and not enforce indecency laws? And public nudity puts no one at medical risk. Of course they wouldn’t!
> To say Fauci has flip flopped is ridiculous too- he makes statements based on known information at that time. As time goes on and new research emerges the knowledge changes and so new statements and policies are made. That is not flip flopping it is just adapting as new information becomes available. Any successful business does the same- if evidence shows a business plan is flawed then you change it or your business fails.
> The bottom line is that we should ALL protect ourselves and others by wearing masks and following guidelines. It really isn’t much to ask. There is no risk to wearing a mask other than a slight discomfort which we can all get over with practice. It’s not like we are going to war against the Nazis with a high likelihood of death by landing on fortified beaches with little to no protection from the bullets of our enemy.
> Rant over.



You're a hero, you and everyone working alongside you. I hope you're getting the support you need.


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> It’s not just you...and if we block everyone, then we will simply increase the isolation we have and wouldn’t learn of other opinions. It’s not just that I disagree with you...it’s that I don’t see facts to support your position, and every time you are challenged on this point you deflect and change the topic. I certainly don’t mean this to be personal, yet I can see how my comments can be construed that way. I suspect we would have a very different (and likely productive) conversation if this was not on an impersonal message board like TUG.
> 
> ETA: covidiot, as detailed in the link I posted, is appropriate for those who ignore health recommendations. By your own comments, that’s you! This is not an insult, it’s just another word to say that you do not subscribe to recommendations from the health authorities.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Of course it's an insult.  Own it.


----------



## Brett (Dec 3, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Covidiot has been accepted and promoted from the very beginning. How about "Lockidiot"?



actually it took time.

There's a reason that "lock idiot" doesn't show google results

But what could it be ?  ?  *?   ...  why?



*


----------



## DrQ (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Of course it's an insult.  Own it.


Agree, we don't have to name-call.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Of course it's an insult. Own it.



Seems I triggered you with my word choice...you’re making it into more than it really is... but tell us all, what word would you use to define refusal to adhere to health guidelines and recommendations? What would you call those people (some on TUG) who advocated methods to circumvent travel verification requirements in Los Angeles? What do you call those people who fly knowing they are covid positive?

I think we should focus on other words such as: science, facts, common sense, and compassion, and how they should influence our everyday lives.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Seems I triggered you with my word choice...you’re making it into more than it really is... but tell us all, what word would you use to define refusal to adhere to health guidelines and recommendations? What would you call those people (some on TUG) who advocated methods to circumvent travel verification requirements in Los Angeles? What do you call those people who fly knowing they are covid positive?
> 
> I think we should focus on other words such as: science, facts, common sense, and compassion, and how they should influence our everyday lives.
> 
> ...


Yes, when someone makes a personal attack on me, as you did , I'm not just going to shrug it off. The fact that you then cannot admit that you insulted me makes it even worse.  If you are going to name call, own the fact that you do it.  

Now you are claiming that I am "refusing to adhere to health guidelines and recommendations"?  Where have you come up with that ?  My daughter had Covid and then did I in sequence.  I stayed in my home for a full 20 days -- ordering in groceries and relying on some friends for errands.  If I was truly a SELFISH , BIZARRE COVIDIOT  as you have labeled me, I would have gone about my life per usual.  

And of course, someone who is flying Covid positive is not doing the right thing and I would never defend that. 

I just find it unbelievable that personal slurs are allowed on TUG.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Yes, when someone makes a personal attack on me, as you did , I'm not just going to shrug it off. The fact that you then cannot admit that you insulted me makes it even worse. If you are going to name call, own the fact that you do it.
> 
> Now you are claiming that I am "refusing to adhere to health guidelines and recommendations"? Where have you come up with that ? My daughter had Covid and then did I in sequence. I stayed in my home for a full 20 days -- ordering in groceries and relying on some friends for errands. If I was truly a SELFISH , BIZARRE COVIDIOT as you have labeled me, I would have gone about my life per usual.
> 
> ...



You traveled out of state and expressed your thrill at doing so, knowing that it was not advised. You constantly complain at governmental restrictions. I could go on.

I’m sorry you were insulted by my word choice. Again, it was not my intent to do so. Covidiot is a common, accepted, term. From your posts, it fits. Sorry.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> You traveled out of state and expressed your thrill at doing so, knowing that it was not advised. You constantly complain at governmental restrictions. I could go on.
> 
> I’m sorry you were insulted by my word choice. Again, it was not my intent to do so. Covidiot is a common, accepted, term. From your posts, it fits. Sorry.
> 
> ...


Why are you apologizing if you believe the insult is warranted?


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> You traveled out of state and expressed your thrill at doing so, knowing that it was not advised. You constantly complain at governmental restrictions. I could go on.
> 
> I’m sorry you were insulted by my word choice. Again, it was not my intent to do so. Covidiot is a common, accepted, term. From your posts, it fits. Sorry.
> 
> ...


Hey TUGGERS -- According to @Ken555, if you travel out of state, you are a Covidiot.


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Why are you apologizing if you believe the insult is warranted?



Final comment on this issue.

First, it’s not an insult.

Second, I apologized for your misinterpretation of my comments and that I’m sorry it seems you fit the definition.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555 (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Hey TUGGERS -- According to @Ken555, if you travel out of state, you are a Covidiot.



If the health recommendations advise against travel in your area, then yes, that would be correct. Not all travel. You seem to summarize and quote out of context constantly...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Final comment on this issue.
> 
> First, it’s not an insult.
> 
> ...


Lol so when KEN decides the conversation is over, it’s over . That’s rich !


----------



## Cornell (Dec 3, 2020)

I have been granted permission to comment. Phew !


----------



## TUGBrian (Dec 3, 2020)

and another thread bites the dust because adults dont want to adult.....


----------

