# Which BART station in SF



## easyrider (Nov 28, 2007)

Which BART station from Oakland to what bus line is best to get to Fishermans Wharf ? We get there at 2 pm our friends get in at 11:30 pm.
Is BART dangerous for late evening travel ?

Thanks


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## DeniseM (Nov 28, 2007)

BART and other public transportation are very safe.  You can't go down into the stations without a pass, so this keeps the homeless out for the most part.  BART does not run all night, and bus service is also limited at night, so check at the link below about service after midnight from the airport.

However, BART does not run directly from the Oakland Airport.  

You will have to take the BART shuttle to the Oakland BART Station at the A's Stadium.

Then take BART to the Embarcadero BART Station and take the Front Street Exit from the station.

Then take the #10 bus  (the bus stop is on Front and Market) to Fisherman's Wharf. 

It goes all the way down North Point at Fisherman's Wharf. It is usually much less crowded than the other Wharf bus - the 30 bus. Here is the #10 route map.


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## debraxh (Nov 28, 2007)

You should have no problems, but your friend's arrival time is probably too late to get the last BART train from the Colesium, so be sure to check the schedules.  They might want to arrange a shuttle or car service instead.


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## Fern Modena (Nov 28, 2007)

I wouldn't do AirBartBus from Oakland Airport at night.  I had a friend who did it, he's a world traveler, and he said its "spooky."  Besides, as was pointed out, they may miss the last train.

Fern


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## Fern Modena (Nov 28, 2007)

Just noticed a mistake in Denise's otherwise good directions.  You should take the BART train to Embarcadero Station, and use the Front St. exit, not to Powell Station.

You also don't say *where* at Fisherman's Wharf you are staying.

Fern



DeniseM said:


> BART and other public transportation are very safe.  You can't go down into the stations without a pass, so this keeps the homeless out for the most part.  BART does not run all night, and bus service is also limited at night, so check at the link below about service after midnight from the airport.
> 
> However, BART does not run directly from the Oakland Airport.
> 
> ...


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## Luanne (Nov 28, 2007)

Fern Modena said:


> Just noticed a mistake in Denise's otherwise good directions.  You should take the BART train to Embarcadero Station, and use the Front St. exit, not to Powell Station.
> 
> You also don't say *where* at Fisherman's Wharf you are staying.
> 
> Fern



It all depends on how you plan to get to Fisherman's Wharf from BART.   Personally I wouldn't take BART from the Oakland airport into the city that late at night, especially with luggage.  It's a fair distance from either BART stop to Fisherman's wharf.  You're going to have to depend on a bus or cab.


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## easyrider (Nov 28, 2007)

Were trying to get to the Marriott at Fishermans Wharf.

Thanks


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## Luanne (Nov 28, 2007)

easysider said:


> Were trying to get to the Marriott at Fishermans Wharf.
> 
> Thanks



As I said, personally I wouldn't take BART from Oakland to San Francisco, and then try to get to Fisherman's Wharf with luggage.  I wouldn't do it at any time of day.  I have taken BART from SFO home (and had someone pick me up at the Dublin/Pleasanton station).  But that doesn't require buses.  I'd look into some kind of shuttle service if you don't want to go by cab.  Or, if you really, really want to take BART, take it to the Embarcadero station, get off near the Hyatt and catch a cab there to the Marriott.


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## DeniseM (Nov 29, 2007)

Fern Modena said:


> Just noticed a mistake in Denise's otherwise good directions.  You should take the BART train to Embarcadero Station, and use the Front St. exit, not to Powell Station.
> 
> You also don't say *where* at Fisherman's Wharf you are staying.
> 
> Fern



Good catch Fern!     Sorry, Fern is correct!  (And a BART expert as well!)


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## Hoc (Nov 29, 2007)

Fern Modena said:


> Just noticed a mistake in Denise's otherwise good directions.  You should take the BART train to Embarcadero Station, and use the Front St. exit, not to Powell Station.



Also, from what I remember, BART closes down around midnight.

I would definitely get off at Embarcadero, although that can be a bit desolate and spooky around midnight (as can the other 2 BART stops on Market St.), and, frankly, I wouldn't do it.  I am also a world traveler and quite brave.  If I were staying up on Nob Hill, I might be OK with it, as I would just catch the Cable Car up (though that may close around midnight, as well).  At 11:30 pm, I would just go with an airport shuttle service and pay the extra money.

Edit: at 3 pm, you could catch the F Streetcar to Fisherman's Wharf, but it is usually so crowded that I would not do it with luggage.  A taxi from the Hyatt Embarcadero Lobby (just outside the BART Embarcadero Stop) should be pretty reasonable, not more than about $10.  Probably easier to take BART and a cab.


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## Luanne (Nov 29, 2007)

Hoc said:


> Also, from what I remember, BART closes down around midnight.



I'm surprised no one has mentioned checking the BART website for the current and correct information. :ignore: 

http://www.bart.gov/

According to this, BART runs from the Oakland airport to the Embarcadero stop past midnight.  Again, *I* wouldn't do it.


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## Fern Modena (Nov 29, 2007)

I wouldn't wait for a bus/streetcar/cable car, etc. at that time of night either, and I'm a South Central Girl (born/grew up in South Central Los Angeles).

Fern


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## Hoc (Nov 29, 2007)

Luanne said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned checking the BART website for the current and correct information. :ignore:
> 
> http://www.bart.gov/
> 
> According to this, BART runs from the Oakland airport to the Embarcadero stop past midnight.  Again, *I* wouldn't do it.



Looks like the last train leaves the station at 12:23 am -- cutting it fairly close after retreiving luggage and taking the AirBart, given that an 11:30 pm landing means they will probably reach the gate around 11:45 and the BART station around 12:15 am to 12:45 am.

But take everyone's advice and tell your friends not to try for the BART that late.


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## Luanne (Nov 29, 2007)

Hoc said:


> Looks like the last train leaves the station at 12:23 am -- cutting it fairly close after retreiving luggage and taking the AirBart, given that an 11:30 pm landing means they will probably reach the gate around 11:45 and the BART station around 12:15 am to 12:45 am.
> 
> But take everyone's advice and tell your friends not to try for the BART that late.



I'd forgotten to allow for the bus.  And just to make things worse, Oakland is *terrible* with their baggage handling.  You will wait forever to get your luggage.  Even if your friends were brave enough to attempt BART into SF that late, there is a good chance they'll miss the last bus and BART train.


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## LisaH (Nov 29, 2007)

Maybe not to check in the baggage? That will save some time...


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## Luanne (Nov 29, 2007)

LisaH said:


> Maybe not to check in the baggage? That will save some time...



It would still be cutting it close.  Too much chance for missing a connection along the line.  And, as stated by me, and several others, not really a trip you want to take that late at night.


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## Hawaiibarb (Nov 29, 2007)

*Shuttle vote*

I'm the last one to advise anyone on how to do this, but someone only mentioned the shuttles in passing.  That's door to door and not expensive, unless they don't run that late?  Especially with luggage, I'd feel a lot safer doing it that way; it's always worked well for me.

Barb


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## Luanne (Nov 29, 2007)

Hawaiibarb said:


> I'm the last one to advise anyone on how to do this, but someone only mentioned the shuttles in passing.  That's door to door and not expensive, unless they don't run that late?  Especially with luggage, I'd feel a lot safer doing it that way; it's always worked well for me.
> 
> Barb



I think I'm the one that mentioned the shuttles.  I honestly don't know exactly how they work out of Oakland.  We fly in and out of Oakland quite a bit, and if we don't drive and park at the airport we use a car service.  That is definitely door to door, and they pick us up once we have arrived.  It's probably more expensive than the shuttle, but it's not a per person charge.  If the OP is interested I can send the phone number of the service we use.


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## Fern Modena (Nov 29, 2007)

Super Shuttle does door-to-door from Oakland Airport, but you have to make an advance reservation.  They have a website, http://www.supershuttle.com of course.

Fern


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 29, 2007)

They should also check car service.  It usually doesn't take too many people for car service to be cheaper than a shuttle. Add in the convenience of the car service, and if the price is close the car service will be the better option.


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## Luanne (Nov 30, 2007)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> They should also check car service.  It usually doesn't take too many people for car service to be cheaper than a shuttle. Add in the convenience of the car service, and if the price is close the car service will be the better option.



I thought that was what I said about two posts up.   :ignore:


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 30, 2007)

Luanne said:


> I thought that was what I said about two posts up.   :ignore:



Well, you said _"…It's probably more expensive than the shuttle …"_, and I wanted to clarify that it might not be.


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## Luanne (Nov 30, 2007)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Well, you said _"…It's probably more expensive than the shuttle …"_, and I wanted to clarify that it might not be.



Thanks for the clarification.    I haven't used a shuttle from Oakland or SFO in years, so don't have the current pricing.  The pricing on the shuttle is per person, for a car it's not.  So, you are correct that if you have enough people, the car could end up cheaper.  I like using the car service since you are the only riders and are guaranteed door to door service with no other drop offs.


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## winger (Nov 30, 2007)

Oakland is Northern California's Brooklyn or Watts.  Don't risk your life walking around there, especially when darkness approaches.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 30, 2007)

Luanne said:


> Thanks for the clarification.    I haven't used a shuttle from Oakland or SFO in years, so don't have the current pricing.  The pricing on the shuttle is per person, for a car it's not.  So, you are correct that if you have enough people, the car could end up cheaper.  I like using the car service since you are the only riders and are guaranteed door to door service with no other drop offs.



I don't know about Oakland area.  Here in Seattle with two people traveling a car service will be cheaper than an airport shuttle.  Then, you have the direct door-to-door service as well.

For that matter, with multiple travelers a cab will often be cheaper than an airport shuttle.


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## Hoc (Nov 30, 2007)

winger said:


> Oakland is Northern California's Brooklyn or Watts.  Don't risk your life walking around there, especially when darkness approaches.



Just to be clear:  You wouldn't be walking around Oakland when you took the BART.  You get the AirBart Shuttle for $3 (exact change only) at Oakland Airport.  It drops you off at the entrance to the Oakland Airport/Colliseum BART station.  Inside the station, you get on the BART to San Francisco, Daly City, Millbrae or SFO Airport and ride the BART all the way into San Francisco.

Not a problem during the day, or even early night.  But I would not want to be hanging around the Embarcadero, Third St., Powell St. or Civic Center BART Stops around midnight.  They are all in San Francisco, but it's just a little too desolate around then.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 30, 2007)

I have taken AirBart to the Coliseum station many times after dark.  As Hoc said, that is not the issue.  After AirBart drops you off you get your ticket and go inside the station, so you're not standing around or walking around outside at all.

****

I would be concerned doing it the other way after dark, i.e., taking AirBart to the Oakland Airport.  Then you would spend time standing around outside the Coliseum station as you wait for the shuttle to arrive.  IIRC - there isn't a good place to wait inside the station where you can see the shuttle arriving.


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## Bill4728 (Nov 30, 2007)

The comments here are about taking the BART from/to the Oakland airport. 

BUT, The BART is great for travel to and from the SFX airport. It goes right to the airport tram system.


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## Luanne (Nov 30, 2007)

Bill4728 said:


> The comments here are about taking the BART from/to the Oakland airport.
> 
> BUT, The BART is great for travel to and from the SFX airport. It goes right to the airport tram system.



I agree.  As I said in an earlier post, I've done this, and I've done it late at night (SFO to Dublin/Pleasanton).  There have been some other _interesting_ passengers, but for the most part they've been harmless.

But, the OP was asking about Oakland to San Francisco.


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## John Cummings (Dec 2, 2007)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I don't know about Oakland area.  Here in Seattle with two people traveling a car service will be cheaper than an airport shuttle.  Then, you have the direct door-to-door service as well.
> 
> For that matter, with multiple travelers a cab will often be cheaper than an airport shuttle.



Are you saying that a car ( i.e. cab ) would be cheaper than the Airporter from downtown Seattle to the airport for 2 people? In August we took the Airporter Shuttle from downtown Seattle to the airport and the cost was $10.50 /pp or $21.00 total. The Airporter picked us up right at the door of the Grand Hyatt where we were staying. I can't believe that a car would be cheaper than $21.00 to the airport.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Dec 2, 2007)

John Cummings said:


> Are you saying that a car ( i.e. cab ) would be cheaper than the Airporter from downtown Seattle to the airport for 2 people? In August we took the Airporter Shuttle from downtown Seattle to the airport and the cost was $10.50 /pp or $21.00 total. The Airporter picked us up right at the door of the Grand Hyatt where we were staying. I can't believe that a car would be cheaper than $21.00 to the airport.



As of a year or so ago, in Seattle, an airport shuttle (Shuttle Express) from Bellevue to SeaTac airport was about $30 pp.  Cab from my house to SeaTac was about $40.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Dec 3, 2007)

John Cummings said:


> Are you saying that a car ( i.e. cab ) would be cheaper than the Airporter from downtown Seattle to the airport for 2 people? In August we took the Airporter Shuttle from downtown Seattle to the airport and the cost was $10.50 /pp or $21.00 total. The Airporter picked us up right at the door of the Grand Hyatt where we were staying. I can't believe that a car would be cheaper than $21.00 to the airport.



John - is that a shuttle van or is it the Airporter bus (like the SF Airporter that serves downtown SF hotels for SFO)?

If it's the later, it's not a door-to-door service as has been discussed above.  The fact that it picked you up at the Grand Hyatt would have only been because the GH was the scheduled stop.

I have taken the SF Airporter several times to Union Square hotels.  But it only drops at specific hotels, and if I wasn't staying at that particular hotel, I needed to lug my stuff from the closest drop off to the actual hotel where I was staying.

The Airporter buses are certainly cheaper than a shuttle - I used to pay $7 for the SF Airporter. In my experience the true door-to-door shuttles are usually more expensive.


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## John Cummings (Dec 3, 2007)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> John - is that a shuttle van or is it the Airporter bus (like the SF Airporter that serves downtown SF hotels for SFO)?
> 
> If it's the later, it's not a door-to-door service as has been discussed above.  The fact that it picked you up at the Grand Hyatt would have only been because the GH was the scheduled stop.
> 
> ...



Steve,

Yes, It was the Airporter Bus. It was great as it stopped at the Grand Hyatt every 30 minutes and the service was great. It was not at all like the Airporter Bus in Vancouver where we had to wait almost 2 hours to catch the bus from the airport to downtown and the service was lousy plus it was considerably more expensive than Seattle.

The best shuttle service I have ever seen was Cloud 9 in San Diego. The worst was in San Jose.


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## easyrider (Dec 4, 2007)

*Made it back from SF*

BART was pretty easy and inexpensive. At the ticket machine I used my visa card to load credit on the tickets for the BART shuttle and ride to the Powell Station. I should have loaded my return ride on the tickets at this time but didnt know that then. We got off bart and bought a 3 day muni pass and rode the trolly to Fishermans Wharff. We were 2 blocks level ground to the Marriott, an easy walk. $12.70 x 2 on BART and $36.00 for the 3 day muni pass was the cost of this transportation for 2 of us. About a 70 minute trip.

Our friends caught the airport shuttle to get to Fishermans Wharff. $40.00 one way for 2 people from Oakland. The shuttle took 2 hours to get to the Marriott at Fishermans Wharff because of some drops in Berkly. 

In all total 4 of us spent about $91.00 public transportation and $30.00 cab fare. 

San Francisco is all right but doesnt compare to Seattle or Victoria B.C.. 

China Town in SF is huge and the Oriental Pearl Restuarant is great . 

O Neils had a grand opening for the Fishermans Wharff Pub with a true Irish rock group and twenty bag pippers at 10 pm. This was a great party. The next night was Kathy Griffin at the Nob Hill Masonic Additorium. She was too funny.
Our last nite every one was worn out so we did Aliottos for dinner. My wife and I ordered fresh fish which was fantastic and our friends had seafood pasta , ceasars salad and some clam chowder. Their meal was so teribble that they couldnt eat it and even the waiter thought it didnt look right. 

Thanks for all the info TUGGERS. It made this trip a bit easier to do.


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## Luanne (Dec 4, 2007)

easysider said:


> San Francisco is all right but doesnt compare to Seattle or Victoria B.C..


I'm wounded.  



> Our last nite every one was worn out so we did Aliottos for dinner. My wife and I ordered fresh fish which was fantastic and our friends had seafood pasta , ceasars salad and some clam chowder. Their meal was so teribble that they couldnt eat it and even the waiter thought it didnt look right.


Sorry about your friends' meals.  There are so many fabulous restaurants in San Francisco to choose from it's too bad about your dinner.


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## John Cummings (Dec 5, 2007)

Luanne said:


> I'm wounded.



Don't worry, I feel just the opposite. We visited Vancouver, Victoria, and Seattle in August. We far prefer San Francisco to Vancouver or Victoria. We did like Seattle a lot but were not at all impressed with Victoria nor Vancouver. If you want to compare cities, I will take San Diego over all of them.


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## easyrider (Dec 5, 2007)

The weather is beter in San Francisco, better than Seattle or Victoria most times probally, but the views of the Cascade Mountains, Puget Sound and Mt Raineer from Seatle are really something better. When Seattle has nice weather it is a very beautiful place. Theres more enterainment in the Seattle water front area than SF. Better restaurants too.

Victoria BC is the most beautiful city in the Northwest when the weather is nice.

SF has Seattle and Victoria beat on cheap t shirts. HA ha. SF has better deals on T shirts than Mexico.

We do like SF just because it is a big fun city and plan to go back someday.

I hope your not too wounded. We live 1.5 hrs from Seattle and play there often.


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## Luanne (Dec 5, 2007)

easysider said:


> Theres more enterainment in the Seattle water front area than SF. Better restaurants too.



I'm not in SF enough to comment on the entertainment on the water front area.  But, I will argue with you about the restaurants.    I wasn't going to say anything in my earlier post, but I wouldn't have recommended Alioto's.  Don't know where else you are while you were in SF, but most tourists don't find the really good places. 

I'll be looking for some recommendations for Seattle though.  We'll be spending a couple of nights there June, 2008.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Dec 5, 2007)

Luanne said:


> I'm not in SF enough to comment on the entertainment on the water front area.  But, I will argue with you about the restaurants.    I wasn't going to say anything in my earlier post, but I wouldn't have recommended Alioto's.  Don't know where else you are while you were in SF, but most tourists don't find the really good places.
> 
> I'll be looking for some recommendations for Seattle though.  We'll be spending a couple of nights there June, 2008.



There was a thread on this last summer - here are some recommendations I made then.

You can also get some good ideas from this recent Seattle Times article on the local restaurant scene.  The "All in the Family" link gets you to a longer list of restaurants associated with the restaurateurs discussed in the article.


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## Hoc (Dec 5, 2007)

Luanne said:


> Don't know where else you are while you were in SF, but most tourists don't find the really good places.



Many tourists find Scoma's, but very few find Swan Oyster Depot.  Little Joes has now moved a block south of Market, at 5th, so it's easier to find than when it was on Van Ness or in the Tenderloin.  Original Joe's is not anywhere a tourist would be likely to go, nor is the Grubstake.

Tommy's Joint is pretty famous, so it's likely to be found.

I would agree, however, that the number of great SF Restaurants that are head and shoulders above the majority of Seattle Restaurants is quite large, assuming that you are talking Seafood, Italian or Chinese.  But Seattle has its share of great Seafood, Chinese and Korean restaurants.


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## Hoc (Dec 5, 2007)

easysider said:


> Theres more enterainment in the Seattle water front area than SF.



SF has very little live music in the waterfront area.  In fact, Lou's is the only place I can think of off the top of my head.  But there's a lot of street entertainment in terms of people watching, activity, and street performers.  The majority of the SF music is elsewhere (think Fillmore or the Sunset/Richmond Districts).  I would say, however, that SF has a huge selection of entertainment in the way of live theater and avant-garde options.  In fact, the Bay Guardian has something like 20 pages of entertainment listed each and every week -- probably more than 200 possibilities.


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## Hoc (Dec 5, 2007)

John Cummings said:


> If you want to compare cities, I will take San Diego over all of them.



John--

I must be missing something.  I have been to San Diego a bit (even stayed there one week near the Hotel Del), but in general found it a bit boring.  About 15 years ago I was down there when they had a festival going on in the Gaslamp District, and that was fun, but it seemed a bit too "small town" for me.  Personal preference, I guess.


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## Luanne (Dec 5, 2007)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> There was a thread on this last summer - here are some recommendations I made then.
> 
> You can also get some good ideas from this recent Seattle Times article on the local restaurant scene.  The "All in the Family" link gets you to a longer list of restaurants associated with the restaurateurs discussed in the article.



Thanks.  I haven't started putting info together yet, but I should.  We already have our accomodations.  Used Starwood points for two rooms, two nights at the Sheraton.


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## John Cummings (Dec 9, 2007)

Hoc said:


> John--
> 
> I must be missing something.  I have been to San Diego a bit (even stayed there one week near the Hotel Del), but in general found it a bit boring.  About 15 years ago I was down there when they had a festival going on in the Gaslamp District, and that was fun, but it seemed a bit too "small town" for me.  Personal preference, I guess.



Hoc,

It all depends what your priorities are. Nightlife is not a priority of ours so that doesn't matter to us. If you haven't been to downtown San Diego in 15 years then you have missed a lot of the changes.

It just goes to show what a great world we live in that people have such diverse opinions. There are no right or wrong answers to which city is the best. The only important thing is what each person likes.

One person put Victoria at the top. For me, I would put Victoria at the bottom. Neither my wife nor I liked it at all except for Butchart's Gardens which are awesome. Bear in mind that I was born in Victoria and graduated from Oak Bay high school in Victoria.

We would rank the cities on the following order:

1. San Diego
2. Seattle
3. San Francisco
4. Vancouver
5. Victoria

The above ranking does not take weather into account. If I did that, then I would reverse Seattle and San Francisco.

Our preferences include everything and are not based on just casual visits. I have lived in San Diego, SF Bay area, Vancouver, Victoria, and Seattle. It was interesting visiting Vancouver, Seattle, and Victoria and seeing the changes, San Diego and the SF Bay area we see all the time.

In closing, I just want to emphasize, that the rankings are based on our preferences and our opinion is no more valid than anybody else's.


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## Hoc (Dec 9, 2007)

John Cummings said:


> If you haven't been to downtown San Diego in 15 years then you have missed a lot of the changes.




I do go there a lot, though I haven't stayed there in 15 years.  Last time I was in downtown San Diego was probably about 2 months ago.

But I haven't been to Seattle since 1981.  I do remember liking it a lot back then, though.  So much so that my top 10 list of favorite cities is:

1. New York
2. New Orleans
3. Madrid
4. San Francisco
5. Seattle
6. Paris
7. Boston
8. London
9. Kansas City
10. Toronto


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## easyrider (Dec 9, 2007)

Luanne said:


> I'm not in SF enough to comment on the entertainment on the water front area.  But, I will argue with you about the restaurants.    I wasn't going to say anything in my earlier post, but I wouldn't have recommended Alioto's.  Don't know where else you are while you were in SF, but most tourists don't find the really good places.
> 
> I'll be looking for some recommendations for Seattle though.  We'll be spending a couple of nights there June, 2008.



We like Irish pubs with Irish rockish music so, O Neils Pubs grand opening was great. We met Doug O Neil and some other interesting people here for this party. The party started with a prayer and pub blessing by an Irish priest. Then the band with the rockish accordion , fiddle and guitar was great and was accompanied by 20 bag pipers for a song or two. The pub is new looking which is its only downside. Ok ,so we really only had the whiskey here.

Thanks for all the info especially Denise`s San Francisco page which put us in the lets go to SF mood.

Restaurants were Dennys for breakfast for a Grand Slam, a snack at fisherman's wharf then Dinner in China Town at the Oriental Pearl which was A+ and dinner at Alitos which was an A on the seafood but terrible for pasta, chowder and salad.

Most all of the Irish pubs in SF had entertainment with at least a guy in the corner with a guitar playing Cat Stevens songs. Cat Stevens music isn't Irish pub music but does sound good when your drinking a bit. If we stayed longer we would have found more nite life I'm sure.

Pier 39 is no Pikes Street Market, not even close. 

SF and Seattle both share another thing in common and that is the many hard up pan handlers. The pan handlers were not in Victoria's waterfront area last time we were there. I think were going to try San Diego sometime in 08 for kicks and giggles.


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## John Cummings (Dec 10, 2007)

Hoc said:


> I do go there a lot, though I haven't stayed there in 15 years.  Last time I was in downtown San Diego was probably about 2 months ago.
> 
> But I haven't been to Seattle since 1981.  I do remember liking it a lot back then, though.  So much so that my top 10 list of favorite cities is:
> 
> ...



We haven't been to New York but are looking very forward to our trip there next July. We have a week at the Manhattan Club and will probably stay a few days extra in a hotel.


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## John Cummings (Dec 10, 2007)

easysider said:


> SF and Seattle both share another thing in common and that is the many hard up pan handlers. The pan handlers were not in Victoria's waterfront area last time we were there. I think were going to try San Diego sometime in 08 for kicks and giggles.



It is interesting that you mention the pan handlers. We were bothered by a lot more by aggressive pan handlers in both Vancouver and Victoria than Seattle. We walked over all downtown in all 3 cities and were never bothered in Seattle but were in both Vancouver and Victoria. They don't hang around the waterfront in Victoria but they are definitely there in other parts of the city. You won't see very many, if any in downtown San Diego.

I agree that Pike's Place Market in Seattle is awesome. It was definitely one of our high points in Seattle.


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