# Introducing HGV Max — Our New Membership Program (Official announcement from HGVC)



## alwysonvac

Dear Owners and Club Members,
Since our acquisition of Diamond Resorts in August 2021, we promised to keep you informed of important updates as we integrate our two companies and develop improved membership programs. Today, I’m excited to share news about the launch of *HGV Max*, a new membership program that brings together the best of Hilton Grand Vacations Club and Diamond’s The Club into one.
*What Is HGV Max?*
HGV Max will provide Members with features and benefits, including discounts across the Hilton portfolio of hotels and resorts, the opportunity to experience invitation-only special events and access to more than 80 additional properties across 20 new destinations. Hilton Grand Vacations Owners and Members can buy in to HGV Max now to take advantage of these new benefits.​





*To learn more about HGV Max, visit my.hgv.com/hgv-max.*​





*What Are the Benefits?*
HGV Max Members have immediate access to more than 60 resorts within the Hilton Grand Vacations Club exchange network, now with complimentary reservations at these properties. The great features and benefits current Club Members enjoy today will stay in place, such as borrowing Points, depositing Points for immediate or future stays at properties within the RCI Exchange network, and access to ClubPartner Perks and experiences such as cruises, guided journeys and special events under HGV Ultimate Access — our new experiences platform.
Future benefits coming to HGV Max Members later in 2022 and beyond include:


An Expanded Portfolio of more than 140 properties, featuring access to the Diamond resorts network starting six months or less before check‑out.
Complimentary Guest Certificates allotted annually (based on Member tiers).
HGV Max Rate with Hilton providing 10% savings off the regularly published rates on reservations at over 6,800 Hilton hotels and resorts.

*What’s Next*
We will continue to share information about HGV Max, including future membership benefits. News and updates about the program will also appear in your monthly _Club Traveler_ newsletter and _Club Traveler_ magazine.
We look forward to helping you create new memorable vacation experiences at one of our many properties around the world soon.​





Best wishes,​





*Gordon Gurnik*
Senior Executive Vice President & Chief Operating Officer​


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## alwysonvac




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## audirt

That note about Embarc strikes me as a pretty big deal.  I haven't had a chance to go through all the Diamond properties, but out of the ones that have been publicly announced by Hilton, only Sedona has any interest to me.  Without Embarc, I don't see a lot of places I want to stay.


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## GMan82

Not much info. Basically we would need to contact them for more information, but I suspect the rules are in the club documents we have all been speculating about.


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## dioxide45

This is good, I guess. At least all the sales people weren't lying about a "grandfathering" period. The question is, is there a fee to opt in?
*I’m an HGV Club Member. Am I automatically an HGV Max Member?*
If you purchased a vacation ownership interest from HGV after January 14, 2022, you will have the option to opt in to HGV Max. If you made a purchase at an HGV-branded Sales Center after April 4, 2022, you will automatically have access to HGV Max.


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## GT75

dioxide45 said:


> The question is, is there a fee to opt in?


Yes, $7K for HGVC members with retail deed(s) to join.


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## GT75

What/Who are voluntary HGVC club members?


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## dioxide45

GT75 said:


> Yes, $7K for HGVC members with retail deed(s) to join.


But this is stating that for purchases after January 14, 2022. Does that mean that anyone who bought retail prior to then must buy additional HGV timeshare in order to john HGV max?


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## Ralph Sir Edward

GT75 said:


> What/Who are voluntary HGVC club members?


 Affiliates.


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## Ralph Sir Edward

Yes, HGV send me the e-mail, even though I am not a member of HGVC.


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## pacman777

GT75 said:


> Yes, $7K for HGVC members with retail deed(s) to join.


Seems steep for not much benefit especially if you bought from developer. What about resale deeds?


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## Ralph Sir Edward

pacman777 said:


> Seems steep for not much benefit especially if you bought from developer. What about resale deeds?


 Nope. Not without another retail purchase. . .


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## GT75

pacman777 said:


> What about resale deeds?


Not eligible


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## mjc775

alwysonvac said:


> “…featuring access to the Diamond
> resorts network starting six months or less
> before check-out.”


It’s hard to access availability at many of the resorts we like to visit 9-months in advance. 

“Check-out” is something I had not seen before as a DRI member. Most resorts can be booked 10 or 13 months before “check-in”. Possibly a further dilution of this new program. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45

Where have I seen this X with an arrow like that before? It looks very familiar, but I can't figure out why;


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## CalGalTraveler

GT75 said:


> What/Who are voluntary HGVC club members?




So does that make the rest of us involuntary?


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## GT75

dioxide45 said:


> But this is stating that for purchases after January 14, 2022. Does that mean that anyone who bought retail prior to then must buy additional HGV timeshare in order to john HGV max?


Exactly


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## dioxide45

GT75 said:


> Exactly


I would be pretty chapped to have been told prior to April 4 by sales people that I could partake in the new program by buying HGV only now to be told now that it will cost an additional $7K. I know we saw that disclosure that they required new buyers to sign, but we know all too well that sales people were getting people to buy prior to April with the promise of the new program.


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## GT75

dioxide45 said:


> I would be pretty chapped to have been told prior to April 1 by sales people that I could partake in the new program by buying HGV only now to be told now that it will cost an additional $7K. I know we saw that disclosure that they required new buyers to sign, but we know all too well that sales people were getting people to buy prior to April with the promise of the new program.


If someone bought during the period of sighing the HGVMax letter (I thought that is was around January 4th), then they will have the option to join HGV Max (w/o additional purchase).   All new retail sales will automatically be included.   All new resales will be excluded.   Any sales prior to start with HGV Max will be excluded.    

I think that I have that all correct.


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## dioxide45

GT75 said:


> If someone bought during the period of sighing the HGVMax letter (I thought that is was around January 4th), then they will have the option to join HGV Max (w/o additional purchase).   All new retail sales will automatically be included.   All new resales will be excluded.   Any sales prior to start with HGV Max will be excluded.
> 
> I think that I have that all correct.


I guess what I am wondering is, who does the $7K initiation fee apply to? Anyone that bought direct prior to April 4th or only those that bought direct between January 14th and April 4th? If I bought direct in 2021, is my only way in to buy more direct HGV or DRI or can I fork over $7K?


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## GT75

Someone who didn’t upgrade or purchase during HGV Max program who has any retail deeds.


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## escanoe

GT75 said:


> What/Who are voluntary HGVC club members?



This is not terminology I have heard before. But my assumption is it is like Bay Club, the FL affiliates, and Scotland where you can own and it is voluntary (versus mandatory) that you belong to HGVC.


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## escanoe

The main negative take-away from me is it reads clear that HGVC will NOT have future access to Embarc UNLESS it is through HGV Max. I now suspect there is a decent chance us resale owners may not have access to new properties joining HGVC .... but that remains to be seen.


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## Ralph Sir Edward

Marriott 2010, all over again. The main differences are: 1.) There still is a home window period. (Marriott didn't include one.) and 2.) Marriott let prior resales (prior to the points system in 2010) join, HGV does not. 

I think that the HGVC resale market is going to collapse. (I also expect that HGV will be <very> active in that "crashed" market, RORF'ing at low ball prices, to add Max inventory.)


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## GT75

escanoe said:


> The main negative take-away from me is it reads clear that HGVC will NOT have future access to Embarc UNLESS it is through HGV Max.


I am not reading it that way (yet) but certainly is a possibility.    I think that this rollout was only to generate sales.     It gave them more common booking locations to show on a map during a sales presentation.     CI/Embarc is a much smaller system.    I am still hoping that it will be folded into HGVC w/o additional purchase.     At least that is my hope.   If not, then I will evaluate when that is integrated.    I really don't see HGVC decreasing current rights when new resorts are added to HGVC.   But I also don't see any new HGVC resorts coming in the pipeline for a while either.  I really don't have any FOMO now and enjoy the resorts that I am currently traveling to.    The information that we are receiving so far from HGVC is that the Legacy HGVC Ownership will remain the same.

But you are correct also, how CI/Embarc resorts are folded into HGVC will determine the direction that HGVC will be taking.   (maybe I have my head buried in the sand)


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## escanoe

Hmmmmmm ..... the new alert on HGV Max is gone from my account and the link on the email from HGV to info on the program is not working. They pull it back?





Link from email:

*To learn more about HGV Max, visit my.hgv.com/hgv-max.*​


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## dayooper

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> I think that the HGVC resale market is going to collapse. (I also expect that HGV will be <very> active in that "crashed" market, RORF'ing at low ball prices, to add Max inventory.)



It might, especially at the beginning, but as long as we can book what we already can, it won't be rock bottom for long. There is still value in going to the places we have before. Will it ever be as high as it was before Covid? Nope, but there will still be a market.


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## JTurner538

I was pretty interested in the new program and had even made myself at least consider the 7k, but you can’t even book the diamond properties until 6 month out. Diamond members have 10 months (12 for home week, but that’s understandable). Why would I pay 7k to get the 4 month old leftovers from the diamond owners?


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## JTurner538

From Diamond’s website.


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## dioxide45

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Marriott 2010, all over again. The main differences are: 1.) There still is a home window period. (Marriott didn't include one.) and 2.) Marriott let prior resales (prior to the points system in 2010) join, HGV does not.
> 
> I think that the HGVC resale market is going to collapse. (I also expect that HGV will be <very> active in that "crashed" market, RORF'ing at low ball prices, to add Max inventory.)


Marriott still has a home resort booking window, just use your week. Once elected as points, there is no home resort window.

I don't see how HGV can really add to Max inventory. It takes an owner to actually book inside Max for inventory really be able to sit there for bookings. HGV isn't going to buy something and sit on it themselves until 6 months out to make it available. It seems like it takes an active decision by an owner to get inventory into Max. If HGV takes a deed back through ROFR, their goal will be to turn around and sell it to a new buyer who will have access to Max, but this doesn't inherently add to Max inventory.


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## tombanjo

I don’t think resales will crash. It is still a deed and you still have access to the system, just not diamond (or possibly new to entire system places). They can only buy up so much inventory, as they need to pay MF on it just like everyone else. If I offer my unit for $10k, it’s either sold at my price, or ROFR at my price.


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## escanoe

GT75 said:


> But you are correct also, how CI/Embarc resorts are folded into HGVC will determine the direction that HGVC will be taking.   (maybe I have my head buried in the sand)



I appreciate your optimism and hope you are right. My timeshare marketing language decoder skills tell me based on what HGVC put in the FAQ (screenshots below) that if Embarc comes to HGVC for booking purposes, it will only be through HGV Max. I am not 100% convinced this would apply to future HGVC development, but it makes me more fearful it may. And if it does it does .... I will still be happy with what I own (albeit a bit less happy).


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## Sandy VDH

Not including Embarc is the deal breaker for me.  I considered it for about 3 seconds, then found out that the main resorts I am interested in are not even included.  Nope, not intererested now.


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## Shmiddy

yeah - the link in the email goes to a '404 page not found' site. Nice rollout guys, looks like someone in marketing will be looking for a job.


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## dioxide45

Shmiddy said:


> yeah - the link in the email goes to a '404 page not found' site. Nice rollout guys, looks like someone in marketing will be looking for a job.


I wonder if they intended to put it behind login credentials. If you are logged in to your HGV account then click on the link, does it work?


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## Shmiddy

dioxide45 said:


> I wonder if they intended to put it behind login credentials. If you are logged in to your HGV account then click on the link, does it work?


Nope


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## iiderman

dioxide45 said:


> I wonder if they intended to put it behind login credentials. If you are logged in to your HGV account then click on the link, does it work?


I think they definitely wanted it behind login credentials.  They would never refer to “resale“ purchases when the audience is the general public.


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## bogey21

This is a good start.  Once the dust settles, we will all have a better handle on what HGV Max is all about...

George


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## Nowaker

*> I’m an HGV Club Member. Am I automatically an HGV Max Member?*
> If you purchased a vacation ownership interest from HGV after January 14, 2022, you will have the option to opt in to HGV Max. If you made a purchase at an HGV-branded Sales Center after April 4, 2022, you will automatically have access to HGV Max.

It's worth noting Scotland deeds are voluntary. However, it's still a purchase *from HGV*. After April 4, 2022 however, it has to be a *HGV-branded* *Sales Center *- which Scotland may not be.

After all, what these pages say doesn't matter that much. These are informational pages, and not actual rules, so it didn't add much on top of the Club Rules we've been discussing for a couple days.

EDIT: Okay, the FAQ is back.

*> I’m a voluntary Club Member of HGV Club. Do I qualify to purchase in to HGV Max?*
> Points associated with your voluntary Club membership are not eligible for HGV Max, *unless a new vacation ownership interest is purchased with HGV*. Please fill out our Inquiry Form and we will follow up with details about your ownership and how you can access HGV Max benefits.

So this confirms - Scotland <= April 4th, 2022 ticks the "*from HGV" *box.


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## CalGalTraveler

"Inquiry" = Funnel into Sales


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## RX8

So DRI owners who are members of HGV Max will have access to HGVC resorts at six months. Isn’t this going to make it much harder for HGVC owners to book club reservations six months or less?  If that is the case, this isn’t good news for HGVC members who don’t want to join HGV Max. Am I missing something?


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## Nowaker

The FAQ is back online: https://club.hiltongrandvacations.com/en/hgv-max/faqs


*What is HGV Max?*
HGV Max is a new membership program that gives Members access to more properties in more destinations, special events and discounts across the Hilton portfolio of hotels and resorts.

*How do I become an HGV Max Member?*
There are different ways to become an HGV Max Member. To start, fill out our Inquiry Form and someone from HGV will follow up with details about the program.

*If I become an HGV Max Member, does this change any of my existing fees?*
Your Club Dues and some transaction fees may change depending on the timeshare interest you currently own. HGV Max Club Dues will be $281, which is an inclusive fee with additional features and benefits. Please refer to the latest version of the _Club Reference: Rules and Fees_ guide, available here.

*How is HGV Max different from my Club membership?*
HGV Max is a new membership program within Hilton Grand Vacations Club that provides Members with new benefits and access to more than 80 additional properties later in 2022. With HGV Max, annual Club Dues will include all reservation transaction fees when staying at HGVC and The Club resorts. HGV Max Members are also able to convert Points to Hilton Honors Points for use at more than 6,800 Hilton hotels and resorts and will receive an annual allotment of complimentary Guest Certificates (based on membership tiers).

*Will my Hilton Grand Vacations Club benefits continue if I don’t join HGV Max?*
Your current HGV Club membership will continue to exist, and you will continue to access the benefits associated with your membership as noted in your Club Rules.

*I’m an HGV Club Member. Am I automatically an HGV Max Member?*
If you purchased a vacation ownership interest from HGV after January 14, 2022, you will have the option to opt in to HGV Max. If you made a purchase at an HGV-branded Sales Center after April 4, 2022, you will automatically have access to HGV Max. For more questions, please fill out our Inquiry Form and someone from HGV will follow up with more details about your existing ownership and whether it qualifies for HGV Max benefits.

*I’m a voluntary Club Member of HGV Club. Do I qualify to purchase in to HGV Max?*
Points associated with your voluntary Club membership are not eligible for HGV Max, unless a new vacation ownership interest is purchased with HGV. Please fill out our Inquiry Form and we will follow up with details about your ownership and how you can access HGV Max benefits.

*I own a resale week with HGV Club. Am I eligible for the HGV Max program?*
Resale weeks are not eligible for HGV Max program benefits. However, there are other options for you to access the new membership program. Please fill out our Inquiry Form and someone from HGV will follow up with more details about your existing ownership and how you can access HGV Max benefits.

*If I join HGV Max, will I have access to the Embarc collection?*
We are reviewing how to expand HGV Max to include Embarc collection properties. At this time, Embarc collection properties are not part of the HGV Max program.

*Will HGV Max impact availability for existing Club Members who do not buy in to the program?*
Your Home Week Reservation Window remains unchanged, and HGV Max will have no impact on your ability to reserve your Home Week. For Members with Home Resort or Hilton Club priority, there will also be no impact on a Member’s ability to make reservations during these reservation windows. HGV Max reservations can only be made after the Club reservation window and starting six months or less before the check-out date.

*Is there a way to join HGV Max without making an additional timeshare purchase?*
We are currently working on additional ways for Members to join HGV Max. Fill out our Inquiry Form and someone from HGV will follow up with details about the program.

*I’m an HGV Club Member with Elite status. Do I have to pay extra to join HGV Max?*
Your Elite status delivers you access to special benefits and offers under the HGV Club Program. HGV Max is a new platform that provides Members with new benefits and access to over 80 additional properties across 20 new destinations in the U.S. and around the world. For information on HGV Max, including program costs, please fill out the Inquiry Form and someone from HGV will contact you.

*I’m an HGV Max Member. Why don’t I see any Hilton Vacation Club, Diamond or Embarc properties on the Club website?*
We’re working on adding Hilton Vacation Club and Diamond properties to the Club website over the next couple of months. We will notify Members once properties are available for booking via email and online. Currently, Embarc collection properties are not part of the HGV Max program, but we are reviewing how to incorporate these properties in the future. As soon as details are available, we will share them with you.


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## escanoe

RX8 said:


> So DRI owners who are members of HGV Max will have access to HGVC resorts at six months. Isn’t this going to make it much harder for HGVC owners to book club reservations six months or less?  If that is the case, this isn’t good news for HGVC members who don’t want to join HGV Max. Am I missing something?



Yes. But the flip side to that is HGVC members enrolled in HGV Max using their points to book DRI will no longer be competing with us to make HGVC reservations. Will there be more (net) timeshare usage moving in one direction than the other? I suspect DRI is larger (but this would only be their trust/developer sales, so I really don't know) and their Max members will be taking more HGVC inventory than the other way around ..... especially when taking into consideration points required for booking. In my mind, they MUST have some type of system to balance out inventory usage .... what will that be?


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## alexadeparis

dioxide45 said:


> Where have I seen this X with an arrow like that before? It looks very familiar, but I can't figure out why;
> View attachment 51569


Fedex


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## dioxide45

alexadeparis said:


> Fedex


I looked at FedEx, but their arrow is a hidden symbol. That doesn't seem to be where I remember it from. It will come to me at some point, probably in the middle of the night and I will forget it by morning...


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## GT75

CalGalTraveler said:


> "Inquiry" = Funnel into Sales


I am thinking exactly the same.   And they will certainly answer your question with facts.


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## CalGalTraveler

What I don't understand is whether Max works for all deeds resale once purchased, or just pure retail points.  If it is just our retail points, definitely not worth the $7k (or another retail buy). With DRI points inflation, although it's enough to reserve a week in NYC, I don't think those HGV retail points would buy me a corner in the basement at at DRI property!


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## Ralph Sir Edward

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott still has a home resort booking window, just use your week. Once elected as points, there is no home resort window.



That is simply not true. There is no "home week" period for Marriott. None. Home week in HGVC is a period where only the actual owner, as opposed to the beneficial owner (e.g. the DC trust) can book the week.

In detail. I buy a HGVC week. I get a period, from 12 to 9 months, where only I can book the week I own, with only competition being from other owners who own the same place and type of week. No competition from other owner's points, or other owner's different weeks from other HGVC timeshare owners, during that period. Marriott, on the other hand, grabs inventory for it DC trust point ownership from the booking at exactly the same time as weeks owners, leaving owners a a specific resort in direct competition for any particular week at his/her home resort with the trust. No "home week" booking priority.

From the HGVC standpoint, it is actually better. Anybody wanting to convert to points can't do a "home week" booking, shrinking the "home week" owner's booking pool to less than the total number of weeks available in the "home week" week's available pool in the time window. E.G. say 2500 week available, with 2500 owners. 1250 (50%) choose weeks. You then have 1250 competing for 2500 weeks. Much easier to get the week you want.  When the window closes, those "leftover" 1250 weeks are available for all HGVC points users to book. The difference is those people paying for a certain resort have first crack at booking at that resort, unlike Marriott. 



dioxide45 said:


> I don't see how HGV can really add to Max inventory. It takes an owner to actually book inside Max for inventory really be able to sit there for bookings. HGV isn't going to buy something and sit on it themselves until 6 months out to make it available. It seems like it takes an active decision by an owner to get inventory into Max. If HGV takes a deed back through ROFR, their goal will be to turn around and sell it to a new buyer who will have access to Max, but this doesn't inherently add to Max inventory.


For now you are right. The last piece of the puzzle has not been put into place. Direct selling of Max points, severed from deeded ownership, a la DC points. Once that is in place, Max will be ROFR for selling their own point system. . .


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## dioxide45

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> That is simply not true. There is no "home week" period for Marriott. None. Home week in HGVC is a period where only the actual owner, as opposed to the beneficial owner (e.g. the DC trust) can book the week.


If you are referring to owning DC trust points, you are correct. However if one buys a Marriott week, there is absolutely a home resort period. In fact you don't even give your week up to anyone else unless you decide you want to. I own a week, I can make a reservation at my home resort at any time until I decide I want to elect points. Marriott weeks work differently than HGVC and Vistana where weeks become points at a specified date based on the club rules.


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## dayooper

escanoe said:


> Yes. But the flip side to that is HGVC members enrolled in HGV Max using their points to book DRI will no longer be competing with us to make HGVC reservations. Will there be more (net) timeshare usage moving in one direction than the other? I suspect DRI is larger (but this would only be their trust/developer sales, so I really don't know) and their Max members will be taking more HGVC inventory than the other way around ..... especially when taking into consideration points required for booking. In my mind, they MUST have some type of system to balance out inventory usage .... what will that be?



I'm not sure on this. How much will they be selling DRI into MAX? How many DRI owners will be ponying up the cost for HGV Max? My guess it's not much. 

This membership seems to be funneling owners into the HGVC side of the merger. Is there even anything out for Max on the DRI side? Can DRI members even join Max without an HGVC purchase? The FAQ doesn't go over what Max really is. It doesn't say how they are selling and if you still get a deed or not. We can't even look at the mechanism for balancing the systems when we don't even know how the days are calculated.

I have said this before but I'm really disappointed in the transparency HGV has shown during this rollout. They are asking people to spend thousands of dollars without being upfront and forthright with how this system works. I always thought HGVC, on a corporate level, was better than it's competitors. The rollout of HGV Max has changed my opinion of that. It's not the devaluation of my resale deeds. I took a chance that the rules wouldn't change and so far I haven't lost anything I use. What I'm bothered by is corporate taking on some of the DRI tactics in how they treat their clients. Asking someone who could have paid $100,000 or more to pay more for the new program is very disrespectful. If I bought from HGVC, especially in the last few years, I would be livid.

Will I buy resale again? Actually, I might be. I currently see a deed that I would love to have for access to a particular resort. If I can convince my wife to purchase, I think we will (we both love the property). That being said, I wouldn't pay the kind of money they are asking when they have already shown they can and will change the program to my detriment.


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## Ralph Sir Edward

dioxide45 said:


> If you are referring to owning DC trust points, you are correct. However if one buys a Marriott week, there is absolutely a home resort period. In fact you don't even give your week up to anyone else unless you decide you want to. I own a week, I can make a reservation at my home resort at any time until I decide I want to elect points. Marriott weeks work differently than HGVC and Vistana where weeks become points at a specified date based on the club rules.


Ok, I'll bite. Explain to me the period when only direct owners, without any beneficial owners, have to book. And I mean when no trust on behalf of beneficial owners have the ability to reserve weeks for those beneficial owners, either concurrent or before in time. Otherwise, there is no "exclusive" home week, which currently HGVC has.


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## escanoe

dayooper said:


> Is there even anything out for Max on the DRI side? Can DRI members even join Max without an HGVC purchase?



Yep. An email like the one we received also went out to the DRI side. Go look in their section of TUG. There does appear to be less interest there than over here. I don't know which direction will see the most net flow of bookings, but if it amounts to much at all they are going to need a way to even it out. Having a couple of resorts in the inventory of both systems would be one way to help balance things out.


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## dioxide45

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Ok, I'll bite. Explain to me the period when only direct owners, without any beneficial owners, have to book. And I mean when no trust on behalf of beneficial owners have the ability to reserve weeks for those beneficial owners, either concurrent or before in time. Otherwise, there is no "exclusive" home week, which currently HGVC has.


I am not sure what you are biting on, but I explained it in my last post. If I own a week in Marriott (we actually own two), I have exclusive rights to book a week in my owned season. Inventory for points and weeks are separate. So for any period of time where I have not given up by right to a week in my season (by converting to points), I can book a week in my season. Point owners can book at about the same time frames as weeks owners, but they are booking from a separate set of inventory. A Marriott week owner never loses their ability to book their week and points owners can't book up all the inventory as the inventory available to points is separate than the inventory available for weeks based reservations.


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## frank808

dioxide45 said:


> Where have I seen this X with an arrow like that before? It looks very familiar, but I can't figure out why;
> View attachment 51569


Looks like logo from celebrity cruise line.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## NiteMaire

dioxide45 said:


> Where have I seen this X with an arrow like that before? It looks very familiar, but I can't figure out why;


If that was a serious question (or not), the answer is FedEx.


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## elaine

hmmm....I have a highly desirable SW FL affiliate (not allowed into HGV MAX--not that I'd have done it)---oh, well...if my test runs of 9 months bookings in 2023 don't yield good results (just got back from pre-Easter Sanibel), I see a TUG swap in 2024!


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## Ralph Sir Edward

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure what you are biting on, but I explained it in my last post. If I own a week in Marriott (we actually own two), I have exclusive rights to book a week in my owned season. Inventory for points and weeks are separate. So for any period of time where I have not given up by right to a week in my season (by converting to points), I can book a week in my season. Point owners can book at about the same time frames as weeks owners, but they are booking from a separate set of inventory. A Marriott week owner never loses their ability to book their week and points owners can't book up all the inventory as the inventory available to points is separate than the inventory available for weeks based reservations.


I did in 2014. It's why I left Marriott. Paid my MF and ended up with nothing. All following all the rules.


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## NiteMaire

alwysonvac said:


> *What Are the Benefits?*
> HGV Max Members have immediate access to more than 60 resorts within the Hilton Grand Vacations Club exchange network, now with complimentary reservations at these properties. The great features and benefits current Club Members enjoy today will stay in place, such as borrowing Points, depositing Points for immediate or future stays at properties within the RCI Exchange network, and access to ClubPartner Perks and experiences such as cruises, guided journeys and special events under HGV Ultimate Access — our new experiences platform.
> Future benefits coming to HGV Max Members later in 2022 and beyond include:
> 
> 
> An Expanded Portfolio of more than 140 properties, featuring access to the Diamond resorts network starting six months or less before check‑out.


So they are keeping the Clubs separate (as expected based on the information so far).  Outside of 6 months, Diamond owners have access to DestinationXchange network, not HGVC exchange network (and vice versa).  I still wonder what cross inventory Max gets access to within 6 months.


----------



## dioxide45

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> I did in 2014. It's why I left Marriott. Paid my MF and ended up with nothing. All following all the rules.


Based on the condo CC&R documents, in most cases you lose your rights 75 days in advance. Meaning if you fail to make a reservation inside your season and your owned season ends less than 75 days out, you technically have no rights to a reservation. Marriott scoops up those weeks to rent for cash. The only way you end up with nothing is if you fail to make a reservation 75 days before your season ends, but Marriott has shown to make exceptions and offer a replacement week deposit with II. So you should have ended up with something.


----------



## dioxide45

NiteMaire said:


> So they are keeping the Clubs separate (as expected based on the information so far).  Diamond owners have access to DestinationXchange network, not HGVC exchange network (and vice versa).  I still wonder what cross inventory Max gets access to within 6 months.


Doesn't DRI have THE Club and DEX as two separate programs? DRI Collection and point users can book inside THE Club at 10 months. If I understand everything correctly, they are just giving HGV Max members access to this same "THE Club" with the ability to make Max reservations inside 6 months. Am I mistaken with this assumption?


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward

dioxide45 said:


> Based on the condo CC&R documents, in most cases you lose your rights 75 days in advance. Meaning if you fail to make a reservation inside your season and your owned season ends less than 75 days out, you technically have no rights to a reservation. Marriott scoops up those weeks to rent for cash. The only way you end up with nothing is if you fail to make a reservation 75 days before your season ends, but Marriott has shown to make exceptions and offer a replacement week deposit with II. So you should have ended up with something.



I was outside the 75 day window. As i said, I followed all the rules. As to the II replacement, I would have had to pay the II fee, for a week I didn't want anyways. So I would have paid a MF + an II fee. The period I tried to get, I couldn't get into to reserve for 40 minutes and the opening window. Nothing left but a few tag end weeks in August in Orlando. (But Marriott had said that if I used my points from another week I owned, I could get any week I wanted - after the skim, just borrow next year's points. It wasn't that there wasn't inventory, it was just in the DC trust, and nobody had wanted it. . . ) I decided to book on after a couple of months (while still in the 75 day window). No inventory. 

So I went with HGVC, which has (so far!), a fixed, week owner's only, early booking window. I have never has a problem getting peak reservations. President's week in Hawaii, no problem. Multi week block in the winter, ditto. Nor did I have to jump on the ressie line 2 seconds after the window opens.

Now HGV is starting to mimic Marriott. In the 19th century British line - "We are not amused."


----------



## matsci

CalGalTraveler said:


> So does that make the rest of us involuntary?


I am guessing voluntary are those who bought HGVC properties and involuntary are those owning timeshares in Diamond when HGVC  bought Diamond who thus "involuntarily" became HGVC members.


----------



## NiteMaire

dioxide45 said:


> Doesn't DRI have THE Club and DEX as two separate programs? DRI Collection and point users can book inside THE Club at 10 months. If I understand everything correctly, they are just giving HGV Max members access to this same "THE Club" with the ability to make Max reservations inside 6 months. Am I mistaken with this assumption?


THE Club, DeX (for points owners), and Traditional DeX (for deeded owners) are 3 separate programs.  Traditional DeX and DeX have different inventory (don't know if there's any overlap).  We can each search 2 years out.  The bottom line is there is no competition with HGV Max until the 6 month point.  HGV Max can only search 6 months out, so Collection owners and DeX members would have had ample opportunity to book prior to that.  
With regard to inventory within HGV Max, I'm not sure anyone outside of corporate knows what inventory will be available in HGV Max.  I've asked related questions in other threads.  My presumption is that unsold inventory and inventory from owners in HGV Max will be there...but what else? Is it inventory from unreserved units in collections? Is it inventory that would have otherwise been in DeX (both versions)?  Will some of it be "common" to the Collection, DeX (both), and HGV Max on a first come basis?


----------



## SmithOp

@GT75 regarding Embarc. There was a time when HGV had an arrangement and we could book there, but I *think* it was Elite benefit only? I could be wrong, it's happened before 

So that makes me believe if it comes back it will be Max only...

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Last fall, I thought there was an announcement that Embarc HOA had voted to become part of HGVC. HGV reps told us we would have access and HGVC owners would be very happy.

They are not going to have 3 systems LT so how would those owners trade? It would not be fair to let Embarc owners automatically have access to MAX without a purchase because that would be penalizing HGVC and DRI. So where do non Max Embarc owners go?

@SmithOp Embarc was not elite only.


----------



## dayooper

CalGalTraveler said:


> @SmithOp Embarc not elite only. We booked there in 2015. Great properties.
> 
> Last fall, I thought there was an announcement that Embarc HOA had voted to become part of HGVC. HGV reps told us we would have access and HGVC owners would be very happy.
> 
> They are not going to have 3 systems LT so how would those owners trade? It would not be fair to let Embarc owners automatically have access to MAX without a purchase because that would be penalizing HGVC and DRI. So where do non Max Embarc owners go?



The letter to Embarc owners was that the resorts were high enough quality to be branded HGVC. Could Embarc just go on like nothing happened? They don’t gain anything or lose anything.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> Last fall, I thought there was an announcement that Embarc HOA had voted to become part of HGVC. HGV reps told us we would have access and HGVC owners would be very happy.
> 
> They are not going to have 3 systems LT so how would those owners trade? It would not be fair to let Embarc owners automatically have access to MAX without a purchase because that would be penalizing HGVC and DRI. So where do non Max Embarc owners go?
> 
> @SmithOp Embarc was not elite only.


From what I understand, the Embarc announcement was a name change only for the resorts.


----------



## Mowogo

dayooper said:


> The letter to Embarc owners was that the resorts were high enough quality to be branded HGVC. Could Embarc just go on like nothing happened? They don’t gain anything or lose anything.


I could see Embarc continuing, but actually as the vehicle for the HGVC points trust.  And that is why I care as a resale owner what happens with them.  If they brand Embarc HGVC and then make them inaccessible to existing HGVC members it means that I am likely to only have restricted access to new resorts if at all.  And in evaluating the role of HGVC in my portfolio, it definitely makes me want to start to look at other options.  But then I spent less than $1000 acquiring my portfolio so it is much easier to look at walking away.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

SmithOp said:


> @GT75 regarding Embarc. There was a time when HGV had an arrangement and we could book there, but I *think* it was Elite benefit only? I could be wrong, it's happened before
> 
> So that makes me believe if it comes back it will be Max only...
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk



We booked and stayed at the Club Intrawest / Embarc Vancouver back when it was available.  I actually think that was our first or second HGV club booking.  I am not elite, so it was open to everyone.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

FWIW...I do commend HGV for putting something in writing out there so quickly after the merger and making things happen.

MVC/Vistana? Well it has been how many years and "It's still coming!" Plus their website now sucks with the transition. I hope we don't see the same with MAX website.


----------



## Mowogo

CalGalTraveler said:


> FWIW...I do commend HGV for putting something in writing out there so quickly after the merger and making things happen.
> 
> MVC/Vistana? Well it has been how many years and "It's still coming!" Plus their website now sucks with the transition. I hope we don't see the same with MAX website.


Painful transition, but free enrollment if qualified vs nice transition but $7,000+ enrollment cost. I’m more likely to believe that we have an upcoming website transition that will be where the HGVC pain is.


----------



## Mongoose

GT75 said:


> What/Who are voluntary HGVC club members?


I am. The Bay Club. Affiliate Resort.


----------



## alwysonvac

NiteMaire said:


> So they are keeping the Clubs separate (as expected based on the information so far).  Outside of 6 months, Diamond owners have access to DestinationXchange network, not HGVC exchange network (and vice versa).  I still wonder what cross inventory Max gets access to within 6 months.


I have no idea what DRI inventory but historically HGVC has granted full access to all HGVC resorts when they rollout new offerings. These new owners (Hilton Club New York and By Hilton Club) have equal access to all HGVC resorts as soon as the Club booking window begins.

Based on the latest Club Point charts, HGVC owners will no longer have exclusive access to any HGVC resort within 6 months. This will provide more competition at HGVC resorts that have a shorter Club Season Window (6 months or less).

*The Club Season window and HGV Max window are exactly the same timeframe for these shorter club season windows (see photo below). Great for HGV Max owners but not so great for HGVC owners hoping to book at those locations.*

From the 2022 Club Reference Guide ( link)




NOTE: Currently there’s conflicting information within the new guide. The resort page for Chicago and some of the Oahu resorts differs from the summary on page 60 .



​​


----------



## iiderman

1Kflyerguy said:


> We booked and stayed at the Club Intrawest / Embarc Vancouver back when it was available.  I actually think that was our first or second HGV club booking.  I am not elite, so it was open to everyone.


It was open to the general HGVC but you could book 12 months out if you were elite.. we booked the Whistler location some eight or nine years ago this way


----------



## escanoe

alwysonvac said:


> *The Club Season window and HGV Max window are exactly the same timeframe for these shorter club season windows (see photo below). Great for HGV Max owners but not so great for HGVC owners hoping to book at those locations.*



Thanks for posting this @alwysonvac! From my usage perspective, this is at minimum a micro-devaluation of what I own. I will point out, though, .... this is a net loss to all HGVC owners (even those in HGV Max). If you are an HGVC owner in Max, you still have all the new DRI competition for the same booking window you had before.


----------



## elaine

escanoe said:


> this is at minimum a micro-devaluation of what I own.


my concern is the "Max Elite" 10 months out reservation requests that auto-fill at 9 months before manual. I've only owned my week since 2020, and had teriffic luck at 9 months out. Do experienced HGVC/DRI owners think that there will be minimal persons who qualify for this, so in practice, this will also just be a slight micro-devaluation?


----------



## escanoe

elaine said:


> my concern is the "Max Elite" 10 months out reservation requests that auto-fill at 9 months before manual. I've only owned my week since 2020, and had teriffic luck at 9 months out. Do experienced HGVC/DRI owners think that there will be minimal persons who qualify for this, so in practice, this will also just be a slight micro-devaluation?



My view on that is TBD. As @Nowaker .... pointed out earlier, a traditional HGVC owner is likely to be able to negate this by simply walking the reservation so there is nothing availability for the HGV Maxer's reservation to be processed at 9 months.

We need to see how it is implemented. One counter I would offer to @Nowaker is that a smart HGV Max user might strategically use their 10-month reservation request to lock in the first three days to start walking a reservation before us mere mortals without Max can. They may be at a significant advantage to us in being able to start walking a reservation if they have enough flexibility in how searches can be created and modified.

I did not buy my resale units with the expectation I could land Ocean Oak or Lagoon Tower anytime I wanted to. I bought my units with the expectation that at least every once in a while I could land those .... and the rest of the time I can find another place worth going.

So, if over the life of my HGVC ownership this has me staying a couple of weeks less at Ocean Oak and a couple of weeks more at Ocean Enclave or Ocean 22 ..... or spending more points on my Oahu trip because I couldn't land Lagoon Tower ..... I am not going to spend my time making "woe is me" Internet posts.

Something from a micro-devaluation to something slightly more substantive is what I expect at this point.

If it is worse than I expect, I can find a plan B ... but I don't currently anticipate it coming to that.


----------



## GT75

@escanoe  nailed my opinion.      For me, it is first wait to see what is implemented.    Most of the elite level "benefits" aren't worth anything.    This could be another one.   If it turns out to be something useful, I will evaluate then.


----------



## Nomad420

​


Dear Owners and Club Members,
Since our acquisition of Diamond Resorts in August 2021, we promised to keep you informed of important updates as we integrate our two companies and develop improved membership programs. Today, I’m excited to share news about the launch of *HGV Max*, a new membership program that brings together the best of Hilton Grand Vacations Club and Diamond’s The Club into one.
*What Is HGV Max?*
HGV Max will provide Members with features and benefits, including discounts across the Hilton portfolio of hotels and resorts, the opportunity to experience invitation-only special events and access to more than 80 additional properties across 20 new destinations. Hilton Grand Vacations Owners and Members can buy in to HGV Max now to take advantage of these new benefits.​



​


*To learn more about HGV Max, visit my.hgv.com/hgv-max.*​



​


*What Are the Benefits?*
HGV Max Members have immediate access to more than 60 resorts within the Hilton Grand Vacations Club exchange network, now with complimentary reservations at these properties. The great features and benefits current Club Members enjoy today will stay in place, such as borrowing Points, depositing Points for immediate or future stays at properties within the RCI Exchange network, and access to ClubPartner Perks and experiences such as cruises, guided journeys and special events under HGV Ultimate Access — our new experiences platform.
Future benefits coming to HGV Max Members later in 2022 and beyond include:​
An Expanded Portfolio of more than 140 properties, featuring access to the Diamond resorts network starting six months or less before check‑out.
Complimentary Guest Certificates allotted annually (based on Member tiers).
HGV Max Rate with Hilton providing 10% savings off the regularly published rates on reservations at over 6,800 Hilton hotels and resorts.


*What’s Next*
We will continue to share information about HGV Max, including future membership benefits. News and updates about the program will also appear in your monthly _Club Traveler_ newsletter and _Club Traveler_ magazine.
We look forward to helping you create new memorable vacation experiences at one of our many properties around the world soon.​



​


Best wishes,​​





*Gordon Gurnik*
Senior Executive Vice President & Chief Operating Officer​



[/QUOTE]
As of now are the By Hilton Club properties NOT part of the expanded portfolio?  I thought I read on one of the the multiple posts regarding HGV Max that HCNY was not a listed property.


----------



## dayooper

alwysonvac said:


> View attachment 51733​
> NOTE: Currently there’s conflicting information within the new guide. The resort page for Chicago and some of the Oahu resorts differs from the summary on page 60 .



I was just able to go and start a booking at Chicago at 9 months. I went right up to the point I had to pay the $59 club booking fee.

Could that change and they just don’t have their system up to date yet? Could be. Hopefully they didn’t release the information with the wrong dates.


----------



## PigsDad

dayooper said:


> I was just able to go and start a booking at Chicago at 9 months. I went right up to the point I had to pay the $59 club booking fee.
> 
> Could that change and they just don’t have their system up to date yet? Could be. Hopefully they didn’t release the information with the wrong dates.


Chicago is a HGVC property, and has always had the 9 month Club Season reservation window.

Kurt


----------



## dayooper

PigsDad said:


> Chicago is a HGVC property, and has always had the 9 month Club Season reservation window.
> 
> Kurt



Yes, but in the 2022 club guide, it’s listed as having a home resort priority from 276 days through 60 days like some of the Hilton Club properties. This would be a change from the past. I’m not sure if it’s a typo or they are changing the booking rules for this resort.


----------



## audirt

elaine said:


> my concern is the "Max Elite" 10 months out reservation requests that auto-fill at 9 months before manual. I've only owned my week since 2020, and had teriffic luck at 9 months out. Do experienced HGVC/DRI owners think that there will be minimal persons who qualify for this, so in practice, this will also just be a slight micro-devaluation?



Sorry if this is covered in other threads, but is Max Elite = HGVC Elite + Max membership?

If so, that's going to be a very small group of owners I suspect.

(I thought the early scuttlebutt was that the 10-mo booking window would be available to Elite members -- without a Max ownership?)


----------



## shifterdarkwolf

I am still confused as hell about all of this. Incoming diamond/embarc properties aside, does not having Max change my booking options or availability beyond having more competition, I guess? For example, I booked Kohala 9 months out a few weeks ago. If I do the same thing next year, what differences can I expect?


----------



## Shmiddy

audirt said:


> Sorry if this is covered in other threads, but is Max Elite = HGVC Elite + Max membership?
> 
> If so, that's going to be a very small group of owners I suspect.
> 
> (I thought the early scuttlebutt was that the 10-mo booking window would be available to Elite members -- without a Max ownership?)


I don't see anything here about 'Max Elite'. As I see it, you get your 12 months out for home week, 9 months for Club reservations, 6 months for HGV Max (HGV - DRI / DRI - HGV) and 30 days for open season. Some exceptions, based on location, but nothing at 10 months.


----------



## NiteMaire

shifterdarkwolf said:


> I am still confused as hell about all of this. Incoming diamond/embarc properties aside, does not having Max change my booking options or availability beyond having more competition, I guess? For example, I booked Kohala 9 months out a few weeks ago. If I do the same thing next year, what differences can I expect?


Outside of very few Centum members and any new owners, it should be the same. DRI/HVC owners who join Max won't have access until 6 months out.


----------



## GT75

shifterdarkwolf said:


> I guess? For example, I booked Kohala 9 months out a few weeks ago. If I do the same thing next year, what differences can I expect?


Should be the same.    DRI HGV Max members won't have access until 6 months out so you will only be competing with normal HGVC club windows.     I think that Kahala Suites should still have good availability at 9-month booking window.


----------



## Talent312

escanoe said:


> ... I did not buy my resale units with the expectation I could land Ocean Oak or Lagoon Tower anytime I wanted to. I bought my units with the expectation that at least every once in a while I could land those .... and the rest of the time I can find another place worth going...



Eggsactly!
.


----------



## shifterdarkwolf

GT75 said:


> Should be the same.    DRI HGV Max members won't have access until 6 months out so you will only be competing with normal HGVC club windows.     I think that Kahala Suites should still have good availability at 9-month booking window.



Ok, so as an HGVC member, I can book other resorts (I own Kings Land but booked Kohala this time) 9 months out, Max allows booking 6 months out. Why would I want to pay them $7k for this right? Lower booking cost or other currently unavailable locations? Not sure it is worth my dollar if I am understanding properly.


----------



## GT75

shifterdarkwolf said:


> Why would I want to pay them $7k for this right?


If you added HGV Max this is would give you access to DRI resorts at the 6-month mark.


----------



## Cyberc

GT75 said:


> If you added HGV Max this is would give you access to DRI resorts at the 6-month mark.


But if you are satisfied with what you have at HGVC then no need to go Max as from 9-6 months out it will be exactly the same as it is. Then from 0-6 months there might be more competition.

Most of the more exciting hgvc properties book up well before 6 months out anyway.

Btw is it correctly understood that the max inventory only consist of other max owners ownerships or can HGV throw in additional inventory? 
Or does max owners just have access to any inventory in both DRI and HGVC at 6 months?

regards.


----------



## dayooper

Cyberc said:


> Btw is it correctly understood that the max inventory only consist of other max owners ownerships or can HGV throw in additional inventory?
> Or does max owners just have access to any inventory in both DRI and HGVC at 6 months?
> 
> regards.



No one knows. A DRI resort has to be rebranded as HVC to be booked in HGV Max. Corporate own so many DRI points that they can just put just about anything up there. For the inverse, not sure.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Here is the question with Max 6 months. This may be like a deposit then search like exchanges vs. search then deposit.

You don't know if the unit you want will be available in the DRI program until the 6 month window opens. This makes it more likely that people will reserve in the 6 - 9 month timeframe in their own system to hold a seat in this musical chairs reservation scenario. The question is whether you need to risk giving up your seat in your system to risk the unknown in Max. Or if you can see the DRI you want to quickly cancel and rebook the new reservation without losing it.

Having more points will help because you can hold onto your HGV reservation, then book in DRI and then cancel your original  HGV reservation without risking your vacation.  For those less familiar or who have only a few points and must cancel, this could open up availability after 6 months in each system.

The challenge is that while DRI owners have an average of 20,000 points. HGV owners have probably in the 7680 to 11,200 (old 7000 pt) range so will need to cancel and rebook to utilize Max effectively.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Has anyone heard if MAX give Open Season Access to DRI for HGVC owners?


----------



## HuskerATL

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Marriott 2010, all over again. The main differences are: 1.) There still is a home window period. (Marriott didn't include one.) and 2.) Marriott let prior resales (prior to the points system in 2010) join, HGV does not.
> 
> I think that the HGVC resale market is going to collapse. (I also expect that HGV will be <very> active in that "crashed" market, RORF'ing at low ball prices, to add Max inventory.)


According to the sales rep that I talked to last week, they are moving to a complete point system, like Marriott, but the deeded folks would still get to use the system as is. Also, that the new Chief Innovation Officer, which is a new position, came from Marriott.


----------



## dayooper

HuskerATL said:


> According to the sales rep that I talked to last week, they are moving to a complete point system, like Marriott, but the deeded folks would still get to use the system as is. Also, that the new Chief Innovation Officer, which is a new position, came from Marriott.



Still trying to wrap my head around this. It has to be a trust if they are going full points. I think it would be hard to use either the DRI trust or the Embarc trust without changing their language. Would it be hard to do so? Maybe @dioxide45 @youppi can help with that. My guess is it’s just salesman rumor talk until something more prominent comes about.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@HuskerATL That's helpful info.

FYI...MVC does not sell deeds anymore. They only sell points called Destination Points (DP). Marriott DPs are broken down two ways:

1)* Pure Point Sales* (Land Trust Portfolio (DP) )

2) *Legacy MVC deeded week Owners: *Enroll your deeded week in DP points. You deposit your annual week into the DP inventory system if you are not going to use it and then they allocate DP points for your unit for that year for units in the DP portfolio. Resale owners can requalify their deed to DP points by buying a retail week to requalify deeds to work in the system.

Deeds are now only available via resale market. Some with quite good value but only tradeable on II. MVC never had points associated with deeds link HGVC so DP was their points program.

It sounds like HGVC Legacy Owners will fall into the #2 category if they opt for MAX enrollment. Future sales will be sold #1 Trust Points (FWIW...I have zero interest in points only.)

However I've also heard on this board that the inventory Max will access will be existing inventory - not a separate Trust like MVC.

Any insights on this from your sales meeting?


----------



## HuskerATL

dayooper said:


> Still trying to wrap my head around this. It has to be a trust if they are going full points. I think it would be hard to use either the DRI trust or the Embarc trust without changing their language. Would it be hard to do so? Maybe @dioxide45 @youppi can help with that. My guess is it’s just salesman rumor talk until something more prominent comes about.


Could be but he showed us the sheet with the new position and the new person's name. He has been at HGVC for 19 years and a senior associate but he could still be blowing smoke. It sounded pretty confirmed to me.


----------



## dayooper

HuskerATL said:


> Could be but he showed us the sheet with the new position and the new person's name. He has been at HGVC for 19 years and a senior associate but he could still be blowing smoke. It sounded pretty confirmed to me.



Sure, but just because he was from Marriott doesn’t mean they are going points. I’m not saying they aren’t going points, but if they are, it’s sure a long way in the distance.


----------



## HuskerATL

CalGalTraveler said:


> Any insights on this from your sales meeting?



He didn't provide more details and I didn't have good questions to ask. Others going to a sales meetings soon should quiz them and report back. The key thing that I heard was that deeded owners would be able to use the system as is, which included him, but, at some point when the system is rolled out, it would be points only for new owners. He said deeds are too expensive and challenging to manage.


----------



## dayooper

HuskerATL said:


> He didn't provide more details and I didn't have good questions to ask. Others going to a sales meetings soon should quiz them and report back. The key thing that I heard was that deeded owners would be able to use the system as is, which included him, but, at some point when the system is rolled out, it would be points only for new owners. He said deeds are too expensive and challenging to manage.



I guess I should also include that I trust absolutely nothing of what salesman say.


----------



## HuskerATL

dayooper said:


> Sure, but just because he was from Marriott doesn’t mean they are going points. I’m not saying they aren’t going points, but if they are, it’s sure a long way in the distance.


It is a she, the new Chief Innovation Officer actually I just looked it up and her title is Senior Vice President of Strategy and Innovation, Caterina Rovati and she was at Marriott International before HGVC, but you are right. He did sound pretty confident about it though. Like it wasn't an if.


----------



## HuskerATL

dayooper said:


> I guess I should also include that I trust absolutely nothing of what salesman say.


That is fair. I listen with an open mind and question things that sound outlandish or peak my interest. Like the Legacy Search Request being 10 months out for booking. I asked him many different ways about it and he kept saying that it would be 10 months out so we will see.


----------



## dioxide45

I am sure some people jump around to different companies in the industry now and then. Just because someone went from MVC to HGV doesn't necessarily mean HGV would be moving to a pure point system. I haven't been able to find any indication in the Orange County records of a HGV trust being setup, but it is possible they are setting it up elsewhere or I am not searching the correct keywords. We haven't seen any indications from top executives at HGV of a pure points trust based system. I know some investors have asked about it on investor calls and it seems to get shot down each time.


----------



## dayooper

HuskerATL said:


> It is a she, the new Chief Innovation Officer actually I just looked it up and her title is Senior Vice President of Strategy and Innovation, Caterina Rovati and she was at Marriott International before HGVC, but you are right. He did sound pretty confident about it though. Like it wasn't an if.



Sounding confident when making a statement is an important tactic when closing deals. It’s what they are trained to do. I buy my vehicles from a family member and trust him completely. I still notice the salesman things he says to make me feel better about my purchase. He knows it’s a done deal but it’s just how they are trained. Being in the business for 19 years, your salesman has to be good. Most timeshare sales people don’t last very long.

I think they are absolutely looking into it. There is too many units lost from last year in Ocean Enclave (330-110) to think otherwise. I have just seen that what salesman say can as fact are based on what whispers they hear from someone up the chain a little higher. How many new resort rumors have been spread by salesman and turned out to be either completely false or true but didn’t pan out. Getting you to buy now puts you in Max with the insinuation that you will be grandfathered in to the new points system with all of the new resorts is the hook.

My mistake on the new person at corporate. I should have known better to assume.


----------



## HuskerATL

dioxide45 said:


> I am sure some people jump around to different companies in the industry now and then. Just because someone went from MVC to HGV doesn't necessarily mean HGV would be moving to a pure point system. I haven't been able to find any indication in the Orange County records of a HGV trust being setup, but it is possible they are setting it up elsewhere or I am not searching the correct keywords. We haven't seen any indications from top executives at HGV of a pure points trust based system. I know some investors have asked about it on investor calls and it seems to get shot down each time.


Very true about people moving around but just passing on what he said because it was the first that I had heard that.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@dioxide45 Aren't DRI clubpoints and Embarc pure point systems? Perhaps trusts are already set up and they will leverage one of these.


----------



## dayooper

CalGalTraveler said:


> @dioxide45 Aren't DRI clubpoints and Embarc pure point systems? Perhaps trusts are already set up and they will leverage one of these.



I though about that as well, but that’s why I wanted someone who knew trusts better. Would they have to change the language in the trusts to change how they are used?


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> @dioxide45 Aren't DRI clubpoints and Embarc pure point systems? Perhaps trusts are already set up and they will leverage one of these.


They are pure points trust and quite possible. But then it makes things messy. Resale DRI Collection owners can now access inventory in those trusts. If they put new resorts in those trusts, those same resale DRI collection owners can access. They can't segregate in the trust like they can an Exchange Company membership. I don't think they really would want that to happen. If they were to create something like this out of HGV Max, I would look to see a new trust created.


----------



## dayooper

Thanks @dioxide45


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@dioxide45 what do they do with deeded MVC that enroll? They are not in a trust yet they work with the DP trust inventory. Perhaps HGV will work similarly to this scenario?


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward

HuskerATL said:


> According to the sales rep that I talked to last week, they are moving to a complete point system, like Marriott, but the deeded folks would still get to use the system as is. Also, that the new Chief Innovation Officer, which is a new position, came from Marriott.


The question in the Marriott system is priority, and it always has been. Both the Trust and the deeded weeks get the same access at the same time. So who wins the ties? Or let me phrase it this way. In the old weeks system, deeded weeks got first crack at inventory, and the leftovers got sold as rental. Example - 100 intervals, 75 owned by weeks, and 25 unsold. 75 owners got to choose from 100 weeks, rental got the rest. Under the Marriott points system, 25 weeks (the unsold ones) went into the trust, and 75 people got to choose from only 75 intervals. In this scenario, it is less likely that you would get the week you _want_ at your deeded timeshare (which is what you are paying for). There is NO priority to get a particular week over the trust. Both are booking at the same time. (That is what I am saying when I say that there is no home week for deeded weeks at Marriott.

With current HGVC, there is a primary window for the deeded week owners to book their deeded weeks, exclusive from all other HGVC members. Will that still be true in a pure points system? If not, you get back into the Marriott situation, with you trying to grab inventory 2 seconds after the booking window opens, no matter how much you are paying in MFs., in competition with the trust, who gets what they want faster than any deeded owner.


----------



## SmithOp

With the current system, once you hit 9 months points and deeds are the same with HGV. These 6 month windows they are documenting for Max are irrelevant for my use, 80% of my reservations have been at 9 months. I rarely look for leftovers inside 6 months. So this new program may only affect the people that plan short term stays.

FWIW Max has no value for me as a resale owner, or a long term planner.

All this talk about trust points and deeds is premature. The product we have is mixed deeds and points at 9 months, a deeded owner can still book their home week if it's available and a member can book with club points. People with lower MFpp get better deals now, that shouldn't change. My understanding of trust points is they all pay the same blended per point fees - another reason Max does not appeal to me. Maybe some of the DRI point owners pay less since DRI has collections of properties, but overall I think they pay more per point that HGV owners. I won't be buying any resale DRI points or deeds.

Here is what I have heard for properties that will be rebranded asap, it will be interesting to see when / if they show available to book by us deplorable resale owners.

The Ridge at Sedona 
Powhatan
Maui and Kauai properties
Cabo Azul.

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


----------



## NiteMaire

HuskerATL said:


> He said deeds are too expensive and challenging to manage.


My gut tells me it has more to do with being able to charge more for the buy-in as well as MF.  Just look at MVC and DRI.  Deeded weeks have lower MFs than pure points.  This is one of the main reasons, I don't own any points.  Sure I lose flexibility, but we've been able to get to all the locations we desire to vacation.  The other main reason is that I can get 2 vacations with a LO unit where the points would net me one.


CalGalTraveler said:


> @dioxide45 Aren't DRI clubpoints and Embarc pure point systems? Perhaps trusts are already set up and they will leverage one of these.





dioxide45 said:


> They are pure points trust and quite possible. But then it makes things messy. Resale DRI Collection owners can now access inventory in those trusts. If they put new resorts in those trusts, those same resale DRI collection owners can access. They can't segregate in the trust *like they can an Exchange Company membership*. I don't think they really would want that to happen. If they were to create something like this out of HGV Max, I would look to see a new trust created.


This is one of the factors leading me to believe DeX has the edge for being the exchange system used for Max.  I may be wrong, but that's my take.
ETA: DeX is an exchange system capable of providing access to inventory in different collections.  While at a different level, providing access to inventory from different Clubs seems to be something DeX should be able to handle.  After all, it doesn't matter which Club you're coming from, just that you gain access to the common inventory.  Even if it's not branded DeX, I think DeX will be the core/backend.


SmithOp said:


> Here is what I have heard for properties that will be rebranded asap, it will be interesting to see when / if they show available to book by us deplorable resale owners.
> 
> The Ridge at Sedona
> Powhatan
> Maui and Kauai properties
> Cabo Azul.


Sedona Summit is slated to be rebranded later this month.  The estimated date slipped a few times, but it's looking favorable that this timeframe will stick.  It's already on the Hilton site as Coming Soon with the ability to book April 27 and beyond.  However, that's the hotel side. I presume there's some more backend systems integration to do to allow for exchanges/reservations on the timeshare side.


----------



## HuskerATL

SmithOp said:


> With the current system, once you hit 9 months points and deeds are the same with HGV. These 6 month windows they are documenting for Max are irrelevant for my use, 80% of my reservations have been at 9 months. I rarely look for leftovers inside 6 months. So this new program may only affect the people that plan short term stays.
> 
> FWIW Max has no value for me as a resale owner, or a long term planner.
> 
> All this talk about trust points and deeds is premature. The product we have is mixed deeds and points at 9 months, a deeded owner can still book their home week if it's available and a member can book with club points. People with lower MFpp get better deals now, that shouldn't change. My understanding of trust points is they all pay the same blended per point fees - another reason Max does not appeal to me. Maybe some of the DRI point owners pay less since DRI has collections of properties, but overall I think they pay more per point that HGV owners. I won't be buying any resale DRI points or deeds.
> 
> Here is what I have heard for properties that will be rebranded asap, it will be interesting to see when / if they show available to book by us deplorable resale owners.
> 
> The Ridge at Sedona
> Powhatan
> Maui and Kauai properties
> Cabo Azul.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


There is a SanDestin coming online also. That is appealing to us ATL folks. The screen that the rep showed me said June 2022.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> @dioxide45 what do they do with deeded MVC that enroll? They are not in a trust yet they work with the DP trust inventory. Perhaps HGV will work similarly to this scenario?


Enrolled Marriott weeks work through the MVC Exchange Company to be able to trade for trust inventory. Much like II, a weeks owner deposits their week and gets back points. They can then use those points to exchange for other inventory in the MVC Exchange Company. The MVC Exchange Company can be comprised of inventory from the trust and other enrolled owners that deposited their weeks into MVC Exchange.

I am sure that HGVC 9 month reservations are similar. At 9 months you can make a reservation at another resort and other people can book the week you own. Similar will likely happen at six months with HGV Max.


----------



## dayooper

HuskerATL said:


> There is a SanDestin coming online also. That is appealing to us ATL folks. The screen that the rep showed me said June 2022.



SanDestin is an Embarc resort and even corporate doesn’t know what to do with them. In the FAQ, they said they were unsure on how to deal with Embarc resorts. I’m just guessing, but my thought is that it’s not coming online anytime soon unless the entire Embarc system comes online. The only other DRI property close to there is Gulf Shores and I have heard nothing on that place. 

Your salesman was very good. Too good. There’s a reason he’s been in the business for 19 years.


----------



## brp

SmithOp said:


> The Ridge at Sedona
> Powhatan
> Maui and Kauai properties
> Cabo Azul.



Is the implication here that these will be rebranded into the HGV family so that HGV-only folks (even us resale peons) should be able to book these without a separate DRI contract?

Cheers


----------



## dayooper

brp said:


> Is the implication here that these will be rebranded into the HGV family so that HGV-only folks (even us resale peons) should be able to book these without a separate DRI contract?
> 
> Cheers



No, I read it as these will be the first DRI properties available to HGV Max members.


----------



## HuskerATL

dayooper said:


> SanDestin is an Embarc resort and even corporate doesn’t know what to do with them. In the FAQ, they said they were unsure on how to deal with Embarc resorts. I’m just guessing, but my thought is that it’s not coming online anytime soon unless the entire Embarc system comes online. The only other DRI property close to there is Gulf Shores and I have heard nothing on that place.
> 
> Your salesman was very good. Too good. There’s a reason he’s been in the business for 19 years.


The internal website he showed us had pictures of all the current properties and then others with diagonal banners across them saying June 2022. He clicked on a couple of them and one was in Cabo but not Cabo Azul. I forget the name but it was nice. Then there was also the SanDestin. That caught our attention but we will see what comes available this summer.


----------



## dayooper

HuskerATL said:


> The internal website he showed us had pictures of all the current properties and then others with diagonal banners across them saying June 2022. He clicked on a couple of them and one was in Cabo but not Cabo Azul. I forget the name but it was nice. Then there was also the SanDestin. That caught our attention but we will see what comes available this summer.



I hope it does come online for HGV Max members along with the Embarc resorts in Mexico and California. I’m just going by what was said in the FAQ that was sent out this week.


----------



## GT75

dayooper said:


> I hope it does come online for HGV Max members along with the Embarc resorts in Mexico and California.


No, I want those to come directly into HGVC.


----------



## johnnyrocket237

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Nope. Not without another retail purchase. . .



This is correct... I recently attended a "membership update." 
First, I was told that open season was going away for "resale owners." (Which I still think is BS... because unlike HH point conversion, Rule book, even after2022 max update, does not say that benefit is subject to change. maybe we won't have access to Diamond open season, and they are using confusion to pressure people.) 

They said that normally I will need to "legitimatize" my timeshare by upgrading it, and then pay the $7,000 HGVMax fee... but only today I can simply upgrade. She said I would receive a $120,000 buy-back credit for my one-bedroom ocean premier Grand Islander, but would need to upgrade to something $50,000 more expensive. Essentially, swap out to a new deed for an extra $50k to become a "legitimate" owner to get access to HGVMax. 
She also said Hilton never negotiates even one cent on price, so $120,000 property will never sell for$119,999.99, and so forth.  For a while, she dangled a $15,000 upgrade to a two-bedroom, which is still crazy, because essentially I'd be paying an extra $15,000 for just 2,000 extra club points (old system; 3200 new system), but would have access to Max... but she called whoever and they declined because it's a minimum $50,000 upgrade.  Think she only lowered it because I was ready to walk out, so she kept me there for extra 3 hours and then went back to a $50,000 upgrade, which is beyond ridiculous.  

I really don't like how they treat us like "second-class citizens."  Other than not having eee elite status, that's the only difference, other than now we cannot enter HGVMax. I think they're trying to use this to pressure us into "upgrading" at crazy prices.  

Here's a question: Why can't we just buy into a Diamond property on the resale market and access that inventory that way? If someone is owner of DGI + HGVC, will those somehow be combined eventually into one account? Or will you basically have to always pay separate club dues?


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

During the original press conference announcing the merger, the HGV leadership said this merger would allow them to roll out a trust much faster than creating their own trust, shaving a a few years off the process.  I was sort expecting the HGVMAX product to be a trust, but so far there is no real indication they are going that route.

I think main goal with a trust is the ability to smaller incremental sales.  with deeded weeks you can't sell less than a week.  With a pure trust you sell people a points in small chucks..


----------



## NiteMaire

GT75 said:


> No, I want those to come directly into HGVC.


HGV will have to figure out how to integrate; for some reason, DRI couldn't do it.  I don't know if it was technical, legal, or some other reason.
FWIW, I see an extremely limited number of Embarc units in DeX, and all of them are studios.  If I recall correctly, they were all within the next few months.


----------



## Mongoose

RX8 said:


> So DRI owners who are members of HGV Max will have access to HGVC resorts at six months. Isn’t this going to make it much harder for HGVC owners to book club reservations six months or less?  If that is the case, this isn’t good news for HGVC members who don’t want to join HGV Max. Am I missing something?


No you nailed it.  It will destroy open access.


----------



## Mongoose

1Kflyerguy said:


> During the original press conference announcing the merger, the HGV leadership said this merger would allow them to roll out a trust much faster than creating their own trust, shaving a a few years off the process.  I was sort expecting the HGVMAX product to be a trust, but so far there is no real indication they are going that route.
> 
> I think main goal with a trust is the ability to smaller incremental sales.  with deeded weeks you can't sell less than a week.  With a pure trust you sell people a points in small chucks..


It could be that going forward they will only sell trust points, like Hyatt and HICV.


----------



## HuskerATL

johnnyrocket237 said:


> This is correct... I recently attended a "membership update."
> First, I was told that open season was going away for "resale owners." (Which I still think is BS... because unlike HH point conversion, Rule book, even after2022 max update, does not say that benefit is subject to change. maybe we won't have access to Diamond open season, and they are using confusion to pressure people.)
> 
> They said that normally I will need to "legitimatize" my timeshare by upgrading it, and then pay the $7,000 HGVMax fee... but only today I can simply upgrade. She said I would receive a $120,000 buy-back credit for my one-bedroom ocean premier Grand Islander, but would need to upgrade to something $50,000 more expensive. Essentially, swap out to a new deed for an extra $50k to become a "legitimate" owner to get access to HGVMax.
> She also said Hilton never negotiates even one cent on price, so $120,000 property will never sell for$119,999.99, and so forth.  For a while, she dangled a $15,000 upgrade to a two-bedroom, which is still crazy, because essentially I'd be paying an extra $15,000 for just 2,000 extra club points (old system; 3200 new system), but would have access to Max... but she called whoever and they declined because it's a minimum $50,000 upgrade.  Think she only lowered it because I was ready to walk out, so she kept me there for extra 3 hours and then went back to a $50,000 upgrade, which is beyond ridiculous.
> 
> I really don't like how they treat us like "second-class citizens."  Other than not having eee elite status, that's the only difference, other than now we cannot enter HGVMax. I think they're trying to use this to pressure us into "upgrading" at crazy prices.
> 
> Here's a question: Why can't we just buy into a Diamond property on the resale market and access that inventory that way? If someone is owner of DGI + HGVC, will those somehow be combined eventually into one account? Or will you basically have to always pay separate club dues?


Well, that is bunk. They offered it to me for $25k and a lady in the Facebook group just got it for a $17k upgrade so they can do what they want, if they want to as long as new money is coming in. I guess the only other issue could be the sales office, regional ones can sell from anywhere so maybe the one you talked to couldn't. But they can do it for less than $50k.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

johnnyrocket237 said:


> This is correct... I recently attended a "membership update."
> First, I was told that open season was going away for "resale owners." (Which I still think is BS... because unlike HH point conversion, Rule book, even after2022 max update, does not say that benefit is subject to change. maybe we won't have access to Diamond open season, and they are using confusion to pressure people.)
> 
> They said that normally I will need to "legitimatize" my timeshare by upgrading it, and then pay the $7,000 HGVMax fee... but only today I can simply upgrade. She said I would receive a $120,000 buy-back credit for my one-bedroom ocean premier Grand Islander, but would need to upgrade to something $50,000 more expensive. Essentially, swap out to a new deed for an extra $50k to become a "legitimate" owner to get access to HGVMax.
> She also said Hilton never negotiates even one cent on price, so $120,000 property will never sell for$119,999.99, and so forth.  For a while, she dangled a $15,000 upgrade to a two-bedroom, which is still crazy, because essentially I'd be paying an extra $15,000 for just 2,000 extra club points (old system; 3200 new system), but would have access to Max... but she called whoever and they declined because it's a minimum $50,000 upgrade.  Think she only lowered it because I was ready to walk out, so she kept me there for extra 3 hours and then went back to a $50,000 upgrade, which is beyond ridiculous.
> 
> I really don't like how they treat us like "second-class citizens."  Other than not having eee elite status, that's the only difference, other than now we cannot enter HGVMax. I think they're trying to use this to pressure us into "upgrading" at crazy prices.
> 
> Here's a question: Why can't we just buy into a Diamond property on the resale market and access that inventory that way? If someone is owner of DGI + HGVC, will those somehow be combined eventually into one account? Or will you basically have to always pay separate club dues?



Wow! 50k? I would have walked immediately. The only thing true in what the rep said is that they don't negotiate on the unit price. I believe they are limited to corporate price lists. However they do a lot of gymnastics (aka negotiating) with trade-in price, minimum revenue amount ($10 - $20k) and Bonus points. Bonus points are at the discretion of the Rep.


----------



## dioxide45

GT75 said:


> No, I want those to come directly into HGVC.


I would think the only way they could do that would be to give them affiliate status like the SW Florida, Bay Club and a few other resorts. I just don't see that happening though because it would give current HGVC owners access to them and they want to be able to sell that access. Thus getting them available through Max somehow.


----------



## Mongoose

johnnyrocket237 said:


> This is correct... I recently attended a "membership update."
> First, I was told that open season was going away for "resale owners." (Which I still think is BS... because unlike HH point conversion, Rule book, even after2022 max update, does not say that benefit is subject to change. maybe we won't have access to Diamond open season, and they are using confusion to pressure people.)
> 
> They said that normally I will need to "legitimatize" my timeshare by upgrading it, and then pay the $7,000 HGVMax fee... but only today I can simply upgrade. She said I would receive a $120,000 buy-back credit for my one-bedroom ocean premier Grand Islander, but would need to upgrade to something $50,000 more expensive. Essentially, swap out to a new deed for an extra $50k to become a "legitimate" owner to get access to HGVMax.
> She also said Hilton never negotiates even one cent on price, so $120,000 property will never sell for$119,999.99, and so forth.  For a while, she dangled a $15,000 upgrade to a two-bedroom, which is still crazy, because essentially I'd be paying an extra $15,000 for just 2,000 extra club points (old system; 3200 new system), but would have access to Max... but she called whoever and they declined because it's a minimum $50,000 upgrade.  Think she only lowered it because I was ready to walk out, so she kept me there for extra 3 hours and then went back to a $50,000 upgrade, which is beyond ridiculous.
> 
> I really don't like how they treat us like "second-class citizens."  Other than not having eee elite status, that's the only difference, other than now we cannot enter HGVMax. I think they're trying to use this to pressure us into "upgrading" at crazy prices.
> 
> Here's a question: Why can't we just buy into a Diamond property on the resale market and access that inventory that way? If someone is owner of DGI + HGVC, will those somehow be combined eventually into one account? Or will you basically have to always pay separate club dues?


Is that in peso’s or Monopoly money?


----------



## Nowaker

HuskerATL said:


> He said deeds are too expensive and challenging to manage.



More challenging to manage for HGVC - that's for sure. More expensive for them - probably too.

But in a grand scheme of things - it's less expensive for owners (and their HOA) to own & operate. Deeded ownership only benefits owners, and not HGVC.


----------



## dioxide45

Nowaker said:


> More challenging to manage for HGVC - that's for sure. More expensive for them - probably too.
> 
> But in a grand scheme of things - it's less expensive for owners (and their HOA) to own & operate. Deeded ownership only benefits owners, and not HGVC.


Trusts are great because they can pass on all the costs to the trust and have the trust owners cover those costs as part of the administrative costs of the trust.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

+1 Trusts are also great (for the developer) because they can throw all of their crap deeds for mud weeks they cannot sell in it, guarantee MF payments by owners on those deeds (vs. owners walking away), and make it appear like there is a lot of deed availability to potential buyers.

Trusts are typically more expensive maintenance fee-wise because you are paying for all of those crap mud week deeds.

It is harder to walk away from a trust if you suffer health or black swan event because multi-state deeds in a trust make it difficult to enforce state real estate foreclosure consumer protection laws. And they can also change program rules more easily because it is really unclear what you really own.  

For these reasons, I say "no thank you" to trusts and will only own deed or RTU for a specific week even if it has more limited flexibility.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Thisis an HGVC group so everyone here has been discussing joining the HGV Club from the HGVC costs and perspective.  Does anyone know what they are selling the Diamond Members as far as costs.  Is it buying an HGVC property, or a Diamond Property, or paying $7K + 1K/property owned?   How does it work for the trust owners where "a property" is not owned?


----------



## WORLD TRAVELER

I found this post in an HGVC Facebook group  that I belong to from someone that posted a summary of an owner update presentation they attended.  This is the clearest explanation of the new program that I have seen so far but it is from sales update, so info may be taken as grain of salt:


There will be 3 active reservation systems moving forward so draw 3 columns on your note pad.  System 1 - Legacy HGVC, System 2 - HVC Max, System 3 - Diamond Legacy.

Under System 1, this is our current HGVC portfolio and Mtce Fee structure.  No new properties will be added to this portfolio s of 4/4/22.  These will remain as deeded properties.  Reservation windows remain the same.  Mtce fees also remain with the deed same as today.  If you opt to stay legacy only, the current portfolio as of 4/4/22 will be the only properties available to reserve in the legacy HGVC system.  Nothing new will be added here as all new efforts will be put into the new HVC Max program.

System 3- Diamond Legacy.   Will function same as System 1 for legacy Diamond folks.

System 2 - HVC Max.   This is the new reservation system for our new combined company.   All future investments will go into this system.   Portfolio will contain all properties.   This is a Right to Use system vs. a deeded property system.   All new sales will be in Max system only.   All sales presentation will be focused on Max system as legacy system is no longer being promoted.    You will still buy points in the new system, but without deeds, the mtce fee will be fixed at 22 cents per point.  The reservation window for the Max system is 6 months; however, you will have Search Requests (only available to Elite and above owner) that you can use to book 10 months out.  These Search Request are basically reservation request.  As properties come available at the 10 month out date, they will process the outstanding search requests and ask the owners if they are still interested.  You will have a 24hr or so window to confirm.  Once confirmed, you get the reservation.  Those without search request will not be able to book until 6 months out.  The rub here is that legacy owners only will have a 9 month window for HGVC properties and 12 for your home week.  So, a HVC Max elite search request will have a 10 month window and will be processed before the properties are available in HGVC legacy system.   Max owners can have several outstanding Search Requests pending at all times based on their elite level.  As one is fulfilled, another can be added.  So, based on this understanding, Max Elite Owners will have a 1 month advantage over Legacy owners at HGVC properties via these Search Requests (10 months vs. 9 months); but Legacy owners will still have the 12 month window for our home week property.   So, I own a 2PP at Ocean Tower.  I could still book that out 12 months as my home week, but if I wanted a 1BX at Ocean Tower, I may lose out to a Max Search Request booking.     

You can get into Max several ways.  1. Buy new points in Max.   2. upgrade your current deed, for a limited time, retain your deed as legacy owner and mtce fee (which we did).  This will get us access into the Max system and also keep our HGVC legacy features like deeds, mtce fees, home week.    3. Pay a fee to buy into Max.  As for Elite tiers, there is a new status structure in Max as well, which offers more Search Requests per level.  No fees in the new MAX system, but dues does increase to $281 per year currently.   If you want access to any Properties other than today’s current HGVC portfolio, then you must move into the HVC Max system.

Reservation Priority is as follows:

1. HGVC legacy home week 10-12 months out
2. HGVC Max Elite Search Requests all properties  10 months out
3. HGVC legacy at Legacy properties 9 months out
4. HGVC Max non elite all properties 6 months out


----------



## GT75

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> but it is from sales update, so info may be taken as grain of salt


And that is exactly how I am taking this until the rules are stated in written form either on the website or via an email from HGV.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@WORLD TRAVELER Thank you for sharing. This is by far the clearest explanation I have heard. Why haven't they announced this in writing? When do you anticipate that they will formally announce these details?  The April announcement has been problematic because no one knows what to believe or understands what Max even is.

I am also curious as to whether your weeks automatically deposit into MAX (can you go back and reserve in Legacy if you don't find the properties you want available in MAX), or you deposit into MAX every year like MVC DPs and there is no going back to legacy for the year? or is it flexible e.g. look in one system or the other for inventory dynamically. (Akin to the two systems HGV had in 2015 for reservations.)


----------



## BingoBangoBongo

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> .
> 
> System 2 - HVC Max.   This is the new reservation system for our new combined company.   All future investments will go into this system.   Portfolio will contain all properties.   This is a Right to Use system vs. a deeded property system.   All new sales will be in Max system only.   All sales presentation will be focused on Max system as legacy system is no longer being promoted.   * You will still buy points in the new system, but without deeds, the mtce fee will be fixed at 22 cents per point.*



That would be equivalent to a MF of over $.35/pt under the old HGVC point structure and is more than double what I’m paying now and 2.6x higher, renting out a ski week I own EOY.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

IMHO...if what @WORLD TRAVELER posted is true, HGV Legacy sounds similar to MVC deed enrollment in Destination Points (DP). The key is how they handle inventory.

I see 3 possible scenarios:_ (my apologies for the long post)_

*1) Firewall the inventory into a separate trading pool from HGVC and Diamond Legacy *_("MVC DP Model"):_ Max owners will have access to different weeks in Max than Legacy Systems because owners deposit their weeks into MAX. With buy-in requiring a minimum $7k purchase or an upgrade, this approach could take years to build up decent inventory and will be full of unsold crap mud weeks from HGVC And Diamond that HGV throws into the system.

_Clues:_

_An unhappy Max upgrade buyer on Facebook said they logged into MAX and "they could only see a few properties" in MAX which implies this approach #1 with separate inventory. _
_"No new properties in Legacy for HGVC and Diamond inventory after 4/4/22"_
_MVP DP has an exchange system that pulls inventory from Deed owners who opt in their points for a use year and from DP points trust into a common reservation exchange pool. Same model?_
_Future Trust Points only purchases @ .22 cents / point MF to pay for High cost mud weeks deposited into the trust. MVC DP has high MF trust points. That's all MVC sells now._
Under this scenario, Max Elite gets 10 months priority *but it is not for regular HGVC Club inventory *- it is for inventory that new and upgraded HGV and Diamond owners have enrolled after April 4, those who paid $7k MAX access this inventory, and unsold mud weeks aka _"10 months in a small inventory pond."_  i.e. it will take a very long time for 10 month priority to matter. Unsold weeks and trade-ins will be deposited to the Max pool instead of the Legacy Pools slowly reducing inventory from legacy pools.

FWIW...It has taken MVC more than a decade to get 60% of their deed base to opt into DP exchange with MVC. And they gave free (not $7k) access to deed owners prior to 2010 when they announced. Plus MVC had no points trading system like HGVC so the value proposition to enroll was stronger. Vistana Flex has had similar slow build.

If this scenario is true, best to wait and let inventory build.

*2) Set up MAX as an overlay to access existing inventory in HGVC  and Diamond Legacy Plus Max trust points pools. * This would be a good option and reason to buy into MAX Elite - 10 month reservations would matter.

Clues:

_" HGVC Max Elite Search Requests all properties 10 months out"_ (all properties of what? MAX pool? Max plus All HGV and Diamond Inventory Pools? This data point came from a sales rep so YMMV
Unlike MVC's DP rollout, HGV is not giving elites and legacy deed owners free access to MAX, which could be implied that they don't need inventory to build a separate exchange pool.

*3) Access both Legacy and MAX systems: Owners can look for inventory buy switching back and forth between systems and use their points where they deem best. *This is similar to #2 but you would need to manually switch between systems to search inventory. Like #2 this might convince me to move to Max, Max would be the access into Diamond Legacy and Max trust points pools by opening the door at 6 months.

YMMV. These are just my observations and musings so far. I have not been to a presentation so learning from others. We need a lot more details in writing about how inventory is managed and how owners can access both Max and Legacy inventory pools.


----------



## escanoe

I am suspending any belief in these changes are happening until they are all in writing by HGVC. Is anyone actually being marketed a trust product now? To my knowledge everyone (on HGVC side) that is getting into HGVC Max now with deeds and that is what they are selling today.

There are 2 evidence points that do land significant credibility to the trust story, though.

1) @dayooper pointing out multiple times about the disappearance of units in the traditional HGVC ownership.

2) The official FAQ on HGV Max implying heavily that if there is future access to Embarc it will only be through HGV Max.


----------



## iiderman

dioxide45 said:


> I would think the only way they could do that would be to give them affiliate status like the SW Florida, Bay Club and a few other resorts. I just don't see that happening though because it would give current HGVC owners access to them and they want to be able to sell that access. Thus getting them available through Max somehow.


With this Max program existing elite members are the losers along with resales.. after spending all that cash being promised a better club with more destinations, they benefit zero from the merger! what HGV should do is reestablish the same relationship they had with embark years ago and make inventory available to all HGV legacy members..give early access to elites first, followed with access to the general membership at nine months and finally access into the six month pool for the rest including Max.  That would be the right thing but I’m not holding my breath.


----------



## HuskerATL

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> I found this post in an HGVC Facebook group  that I belong to from someone that posted a summary of an owner update presentation they attended.  This is the clearest explanation of the new program that I have seen so far but it is from sales update, so info may be taken as grain of salt:
> 
> 
> There will be 3 active reservation systems moving forward so draw 3 columns on your note pad.  System 1 - Legacy HGVC, System 2 - HVC Max, System 3 - Diamond Legacy.
> 
> Under System 1, this is our current HGVC portfolio and Mtce Fee structure.  No new properties will be added to this portfolio s of 4/4/22.  These will remain as deeded properties.  Reservation windows remain the same.  Mtce fees also remain with the deed same as today.  If you opt to stay legacy only, the current portfolio as of 4/4/22 will be the only properties available to reserve in the legacy HGVC system.  Nothing new will be added here as all new efforts will be put into the new HVC Max program.
> 
> System 3- Diamond Legacy.   Will function same as System 1 for legacy Diamond folks.
> 
> System 2 - HVC Max.   This is the new reservation system for our new combined company.   All future investments will go into this system.   Portfolio will contain all properties.   This is a Right to Use system vs. a deeded property system.   All new sales will be in Max system only.   All sales presentation will be focused on Max system as legacy system is no longer being promoted.    You will still buy points in the new system, but without deeds, the mtce fee will be fixed at 22 cents per point.  The reservation window for the Max system is 6 months; however, you will have Search Requests (only available to Elite and above owner) that you can use to book 10 months out.  These Search Request are basically reservation request.  As properties come available at the 10 month out date, they will process the outstanding search requests and ask the owners if they are still interested.  You will have a 24hr or so window to confirm.  Once confirmed, you get the reservation.  Those without search request will not be able to book until 6 months out.  The rub here is that legacy owners only will have a 9 month window for HGVC properties and 12 for your home week.  So, a HVC Max elite search request will have a 10 month window and will be processed before the properties are available in HGVC legacy system.   Max owners can have several outstanding Search Requests pending at all times based on their elite level.  As one is fulfilled, another can be added.  So, based on this understanding, Max Elite Owners will have a 1 month advantage over Legacy owners at HGVC properties via these Search Requests (10 months vs. 9 months); but Legacy owners will still have the 12 month window for our home week property.   So, I own a 2PP at Ocean Tower.  I could still book that out 12 months as my home week, but if I wanted a 1BX at Ocean Tower, I may lose out to a Max Search Request booking.
> 
> You can get into Max several ways.  1. Buy new points in Max.   2. upgrade your current deed, for a limited time, retain your deed as legacy owner and mtce fee (which we did).  This will get us access into the Max system and also keep our HGVC legacy features like deeds, mtce fees, home week.    3. Pay a fee to buy into Max.  As for Elite tiers, there is a new status structure in Max as well, which offers more Search Requests per level.  No fees in the new MAX system, but dues does increase to $281 per year currently.   If you want access to any Properties other than today’s current HGVC portfolio, then you must move into the HVC Max system.
> 
> Reservation Priority is as follows:
> 
> 1. HGVC legacy home week 10-12 months out
> 2. HGVC Max Elite Search Requests all properties  10 months out
> 3. HGVC legacy at Legacy properties 9 months out
> 4. HGVC Max non elite all properties 6 months out


This is basically what we heard last week but shared much better than I did.


----------



## letsgobobby

BingoBangoBongo said:


> That would be equivalent to a MF of over $.35/pt under the old HGVC point structure and is more than double what I’m paying now and 2.6x higher, renting out a ski week I own EOY.


If HGVC Legacy availability declines over time, resale deeds anywhere other than desirable locations will decline in value, too. Then they can Exercise ROFR at lower prices, and resell those units in Max. I guess that's good business in their part, especially if there are enough suckers willing to pay developer prices and now, Max MFs.

I have always wondered about the economics of resale. How can I buy a week for $1200 at location A and pay a MF of $1500  and reserve a week in a 2 BR in Hawaii and have the economics work out? I'm getting a deal that's too good to be true, who's footing the bill?


----------



## Mongoose

letsgobobby said:


> If HGVC Legacy availability declines over time, resale deeds anywhere other than desirable locations will decline in value, too. Then they can Exercise ROFR at lower prices, and resell those units in Max. I guess that's good business in their part, especially if there are enough suckers willing to pay developer prices and now, Max MFs.
> 
> I have always wondered about the economics of resale. How can I buy a week for $1200 at location A and pay a MF of $1500  and reserve a week in a 2 BR in Hawaii and have the economics work out? I'm getting a deal that's too good to be true, who's footing the bill?


The original developer purchaser footed the bill.  You are paying for O&M. That’s why a smart resale buy is such a steal.


----------



## Mongoose

I was  running the MF numbers last night for the US Collection for Sedona Summit.  They are around $.21 per point. I pay $.14 for my Bay Club. I just don’t see HGVMax in my future at those fees, regardless of resale issues.


----------



## dioxide45

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> I found this post in an HGVC Facebook group  that I belong to from someone that posted a summary of an owner update presentation they attended.  This is the clearest explanation of the new program that I have seen so far but it is from sales update, so info may be taken as grain of salt:
> 
> 
> There will be 3 active reservation systems moving forward so draw 3 columns on your note pad.  System 1 - Legacy HGVC, System 2 - HVC Max, System 3 - Diamond Legacy.
> 
> Under System 1, this is our current HGVC portfolio and Mtce Fee structure.  No new properties will be added to this portfolio s of 4/4/22.  These will remain as deeded properties.  Reservation windows remain the same.  Mtce fees also remain with the deed same as today.  If you opt to stay legacy only, the current portfolio as of 4/4/22 will be the only properties available to reserve in the legacy HGVC system.  Nothing new will be added here as all new efforts will be put into the new HVC Max program.
> 
> System 3- Diamond Legacy.   Will function same as System 1 for legacy Diamond folks.
> 
> System 2 - HVC Max.   This is the new reservation system for our new combined company.   All future investments will go into this system.   Portfolio will contain all properties.   This is a Right to Use system vs. a deeded property system.   All new sales will be in Max system only.   All sales presentation will be focused on Max system as legacy system is no longer being promoted.    You will still buy points in the new system, but without deeds, the mtce fee will be fixed at 22 cents per point.  The reservation window for the Max system is 6 months; however, you will have Search Requests (only available to Elite and above owner) that you can use to book 10 months out.  These Search Request are basically reservation request.  As properties come available at the 10 month out date, they will process the outstanding search requests and ask the owners if they are still interested.  You will have a 24hr or so window to confirm.  Once confirmed, you get the reservation.  Those without search request will not be able to book until 6 months out.  The rub here is that legacy owners only will have a 9 month window for HGVC properties and 12 for your home week.  So, a HVC Max elite search request will have a 10 month window and will be processed before the properties are available in HGVC legacy system.   Max owners can have several outstanding Search Requests pending at all times based on their elite level.  As one is fulfilled, another can be added.  So, based on this understanding, Max Elite Owners will have a 1 month advantage over Legacy owners at HGVC properties via these Search Requests (10 months vs. 9 months); but Legacy owners will still have the 12 month window for our home week property.   So, I own a 2PP at Ocean Tower.  I could still book that out 12 months as my home week, but if I wanted a 1BX at Ocean Tower, I may lose out to a Max Search Request booking.
> 
> You can get into Max several ways.  1. Buy new points in Max.   2. upgrade your current deed, for a limited time, retain your deed as legacy owner and mtce fee (which we did).  This will get us access into the Max system and also keep our HGVC legacy features like deeds, mtce fees, home week.    3. Pay a fee to buy into Max.  As for Elite tiers, there is a new status structure in Max as well, which offers more Search Requests per level.  No fees in the new MAX system, but dues does increase to $281 per year currently.   If you want access to any Properties other than today’s current HGVC portfolio, then you must move into the HVC Max system.
> 
> Reservation Priority is as follows:
> 
> 1. HGVC legacy home week 10-12 months out
> 2. HGVC Max Elite Search Requests all properties  10 months out
> 3. HGVC legacy at Legacy properties 9 months out
> 4. HGVC Max non elite all properties 6 months out


Is seems that a lot of emphasis is being placed on Elite ownership here and how they may somehow pillage all the great inventory. They probably make up less than 5% of the total ownership base.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

dioxide45 said:


> Is seems that a lot of emphasis is being placed on Elite ownership here and how they may somehow pillage all the great inventory. They probably make up less than 5% of the total ownership base.


And unlike MVC when they rolled out their DP program, HGV is not giving Elites and Legacy owners free access to MAX  which sucks. I would expect Elites to have free access at a minimum.

Perhaps it is because the New Max contracts have updated  (i.e. negative) terms on resale and other benefits which owners need to agree with? I would tread very carefully before signing. I would love for someone to provide a copy of the new Max contract (Personally Identifying details deleted) for Tuggers to read.


----------



## HuskerATL

CalGalTraveler said:


> And unlike MVC when they rolled out their DP program, HGV is not giving Elites and Legacy owners free access to MAX  which sucks. I would expect Elites to have access at a minimum.
> 
> Perhaps it is because the New Max contracts have updated  (i.e. negative) terms on resale and other benefits which owners need to agree with? I would tread very carefully before signing. I would love for someone to provide a copy of the new Max contract (Personally Identifying details deleted) for Tuggers to read.


I can tell you that there isn't much paperwork. When we almost upgraded to the Kohala Suites, the paperwork is sprinkled with Max language and we would agree to pay the $281 fee and $199/contract activation fee but that is about it.... With the promise of a future separate website giving us access to DRI and HGV. I guess that I can scan it and post, taking out personal info. Maybe folks would see something that I missed.


----------



## dayooper

@HuskerATL and @WORLD TRAVELER 

I can see World Traveler’s post above how things will work. This makes sense. I will never trust what a timeshare salesman says, but this seems like it’s the way things will happen.

If I take what’s said above as how it will shake out, here’s my take.

1. *The 10 month search function will sting, but won’t be very limiting to us legacy members.* HGV Max members can only reserve a limited amount of trips and that’s based on their status. With the prices HGV is charging, the amount of search weeks won’t be too limiting and many members will go for the exclusive, high point resorts. Legacy members will have a hard time booking certain resorts, but places that can be booked now will probably be able to be booked then.

2. *Resale points are very limited in Max. *With the amount of searches based on your Elite (I know it’s called something else), resale points are only good for either extending stays or 6 month reservations. By basing the searches on retail points, resale points will struggle to be used where people want to go. As people buy into Max (dumb name, the marketing person who decided on that name should be fired), they will be wanting to sell their weeks back to HGV, putting more weeks into the system.

3. *Existing Elite members do have an advantage, but they will pay for it.* Either pay $7000 or buy more for more money. Not only that, but many of those deeds purchased by many elite were lower MF resorts. Will those owners still pay their lower MF’s or will they have to pay that outrageous $0.22 cost (not convinced that will be the cost as the salesman may have embellished to get the sale and the commission).

4. *Scotland was a bigger deal than we knew. *@HuskerATL made the best move they could have. Buying that many points to get elite at the cost they did was huge. If the goal was Max, then, for just over $18,000 (with the $7000 Max fee), the status came about as cheap as you can get it.

5. *As more resorts are introduced, the legacy resorts will become less popular with Max.* This is conjecture, of course but we all love the new, shiny places that HGVC will push as exclusive to them.

6. *Owners of hard to book resorts that paid a premium to own there won’t be joining Max if they have to give up their weeks.* Places like Oahu, Valdoro, and Hilton Head will want to keep those weeks.

Questions I still have:

1. How will legacy members of Max have their deeds dealt with? Will they have to turn them over? Will they have to pay the Max MF’s?

2. How will this effect Legacy members MF’s? Will they skyrocket or will they keep steady like the other system’s legacy members?

3. How will HGV deal with Max members that don’t want their points anymore? Will they have a buyback or return policy? Will there be a resale market?

4. Is Max a trust or a vacation club? If it’s a trust, when will it come around? If it’s a vacation club, where is the protection for members?

If you got this far in this beast of a post, thanks. It helps my thoughts when I can put them in writing. I’m sure there will be more questions as we learn more about Max.


----------



## letsgobobby

Mongoose said:


> The original developer purchaser footed the bill.  You are paying for O&M. That’s why a smart resale buy is such a steal.


Right but even my annual MF plus my club annual fee doesn't actually cover the ops/maintenance in Hawaii. Who's paying for that, a Hawaii owner who used their week elsewhere?


----------



## escanoe

I read it all, but will only comment on part. I can’t imagine owners of legacy weeks will give them up or be pushed into it. I think it will be like the legacy Marriott weeks. There will be opportunities to get them into Max (likely involving a new purchase) then you can either use your week or the points associated with it in Max. 




dayooper said:


> @HuskerATL and @WORLD TRAVELER
> 
> I can see World Traveler’s post above how things will work. This makes sense. I will never trust what a timeshare salesman says, but this seems like it’s the way things will happen.
> 
> If I take what’s said above as how it will shake out, here’s my take.
> 
> 1. *The 10 month search function will sting, but won’t be very limiting to us legacy members.* HGV Max members can only reserve a limited amount of trips and that’s based on their status. With the prices HGV is charging, the amount of search weeks won’t be too limiting and many members will go for the exclusive, high point resorts. Legacy members will have a hard time booking certain resorts, but places that can be booked now will probably be able to be booked then.
> 
> 2. *Resale points are very limited in Max. *With the amount of searches based on your Elite (I know it’s called something else), resale points are only good for either extending stays or 6 month reservations. By basing the searches on retail points, resale points will struggle to be used where people want to go. As people buy into Max (dumb name, the marketing person who decided on that name should be fired), they will be wanting to sell their weeks back to HGV, putting more weeks into the system.
> 
> 3. *Existing Elite members do have an advantage, but they will pay for it.* Either pay $7000 or buy more for more money. Not only that, but many of those deeds purchased by many elite were lower MF resorts. Will those owners still pay their lower MF’s or will they have to pay that outrageous $0.22 cost (not convinced that will be the cost as the salesman may have embellished to get the sale and the commission).
> 
> 4. *Scotland was a bigger deal than we knew. *@HuskerATL made the best move they could have. Buying that many points to get elite at the cost they did was huge. If the goal was Max, then, for just over $18,000 (with the $7000 Max fee), the status came about as cheap as you can get it.
> 
> 5. *As more resorts are introduced, the legacy resorts will become less popular with Max.* This is conjecture, of course but we all love the new, shiny places that HGVC will push as exclusive to them.
> 
> 6. *Owners of hard to book resorts that paid a premium to own there won’t be joining Max if they have to give up their weeks.* Places like Oahu, Valdoro, and Hilton Head will want to keep those weeks.
> 
> Questions I still have:
> 
> 1. How will legacy members of Max have their deeds dealt with? Will they have to turn them over? Will they have to pay the Max MF’s?
> 
> 2. How will this effect Legacy members MF’s? Will they skyrocket or will they keep steady like the other system’s legacy members?
> 
> 3. How will HGV deal with Max members that don’t want their points anymore? Will they have a buyback or return policy? Will there be a resale market?
> 
> 4. Is Max a trust or a vacation club? If it’s a trust, when will it come around? If it’s a vacation club, where is the protection for members?
> 
> If you got this far in this beast of a post, thanks. It helps my thoughts when I can put them in writing. I’m sure there will be more questions as we learn more about Max.


----------



## HuskerATL

dayooper said:


> @HuskerATL and @WORLD TRAVELER
> 
> I can see World Traveler’s post above how things will work. This makes sense. I will never trust what a timeshare salesman says, but this seems like it’s the way things will happen.
> 
> If I take what’s said above as how it will shake out, here’s my take.
> 
> 1. *The 10 month search function will sting, but won’t be very limiting to us legacy members.* HGV Max members can only reserve a limited amount of trips and that’s based on their status. With the prices HGV is charging, the amount of search weeks won’t be too limiting and many members will go for the exclusive, high point resorts. Legacy members will have a hard time booking certain resorts, but places that can be booked now will probably be able to be booked then.
> 
> 2. *Resale points are very limited in Max. *With the amount of searches based on your Elite (I know it’s called something else), resale points are only good for either extending stays or 6 month reservations. By basing the searches on retail points, resale points will struggle to be used where people want to go. As people buy into Max (dumb name, the marketing person who decided on that name should be fired), they will be wanting to sell their weeks back to HGV, putting more weeks into the system.
> 
> 3. *Existing Elite members do have an advantage, but they will pay for it.* Either pay $7000 or buy more for more money. Not only that, but many of those deeds purchased by many elite were lower MF resorts. Will those owners still pay their lower MF’s or will they have to pay that outrageous $0.22 cost (not convinced that will be the cost as the salesman may have embellished to get the sale and the commission).
> 
> 4. *Scotland was a bigger deal than we knew. *@HuskerATL made the best move they could have. Buying that many points to get elite at the cost they did was huge. If the goal was Max, then, for just over $18,000 (with the $7000 Max fee), the status came about as cheap as you can get it.
> 
> 5. *As more resorts are introduced, the legacy resorts will become less popular with Max.* This is conjecture, of course but we all love the new, shiny places that HGVC will push as exclusive to them.
> 
> 6. *Owners of hard to book resorts that paid a premium to own there won’t be joining Max if they have to give up their weeks.* Places like Oahu, Valdoro, and Hilton Head will want to keep those weeks.
> 
> Questions I still have:
> 
> 1. How will legacy members of Max have their deeds dealt with? Will they have to turn them over? Will they have to pay the Max MF’s?
> 
> 2. How will this effect Legacy members MF’s? Will they skyrocket or will they keep steady like the other system’s legacy members?
> 
> 3. How will HGV deal with Max members that don’t want their points anymore? Will they have a buyback or return policy? Will there be a resale market?
> 
> 4. Is Max a trust or a vacation club? If it’s a trust, when will it come around? If it’s a vacation club, where is the protection for members?
> 
> If you got this far in this beast of a post, thanks. It helps my thoughts when I can put them in writing. I’m sure there will be more questions as we learn more about Max.


You raise very good questions and we will find out as time goes by. Right now, it feels like they are flying by the seat of their pants. For the Scotland thing, we will see. When the elite status is in my account, I will believe it is real. I am waiting for the rug to be pulled out but either way we have cheap points to use.


----------



## dayooper

escanoe said:


> I read it all, but will only comment on part. I can’t imagine owners of legacy weeks will give them up or be pushed into it. I think it will be like the legacy Marriott weeks. There will be opportunities to get them into Max (likely involving a new purchase) then you can either use your week or the points associated with it in Max.



And that goes back to the question @CalGalTraveler made. How will Max be set up and how will HGV deal with the crossover between Max, Legacy HGVC and Legacy DRI?


----------



## escanoe

Looks like to me you placed a smart bet. You will get elite with it written in the sales deal.

But even if it is devalued or doesn’t play out as you expect, you still got an excellent deal on points.

I have no doubt rescinding the developer purchase was the right move for now. 



HuskerATL said:


> You raise very good questions and we will find out as time goes by. Right now, it feels like they are flying by the seat of their pants. For the Scotland thing, we will see. When the elite status is in my account, I will believe it is real. I am waiting for the rug to be pulled out but either way we have cheap points to use.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@dayooper Good points. I thought if you pay the Max fee your resales also are requalified with it? If not, Max is not appealing because we only have one 7680 pt retail deed which would not reserve a corner in the basement at a DRI property when a week at P@P runs $21,500 points. If true, the Max population which is using 10 month searches will be extremely small because we could only make a small search with 7680 points at 10 months no matter how many searches the elite allows.

We will be very happy using Legacy with our low cost resale points unless Max offers some value.   We already have AI reservations with our BHC and Honors Gold from that deed too. If we really want a DRI stay, we could rent or trade via II/RCI.

I can see the fear selling by reps now, "You will not have access to Legacy inventory if you don't upgrade."  MVC and Vistana reps repeat the same BS.  Don't believe it.  We will likely be dead or will have sold our units by the time those changes affect us.


----------



## escanoe

My guess is moving forward for new properties points will be in a trust and members obtain points from owning in the trust.

Then there is an exchange/booking process. Points from the trust or points from deeds enrolled in HGV Max can be used to book.

But we are ahead of ourselves and need to see the rules to really know anything.




dayooper said:


> And that goes back to the question @CalGalTraveler made. How will Max be set up and how will HGV deal with the crossover between Max, Legacy HGVC and Legacy DRI?


----------



## dayooper

CalGalTraveler said:


> @dayooper Good points. I thought if you pay the Max fee your resales also are requalified with it? If not, Max is not appealing because we only have one 8400 pt retail deed which would not reserve a corner in the basement at a DRI property when a week at P@P runs $21,500 points. If true, the Max population which is using 10 month searches will be extremely small because we could only make a small search with 8400 points at 10 months no matter how many searches the elite allows.



I believe they can be used in Max, but they don’t count toward your tier status and that status determines how many 10 month searches you get. Resale points, I believe can be used for Max, giving you the ability to book higher point resorts. You just only get the amount of searches your tier status dictates. Your plan, if it turns out you can use those resale points, is great idea to get into P@P. The only issue would be if those Max members with a higher tier status wants that same reservation and they would get priority. If you are flexible, it just might work. 

This is just how I interpret the rules I have read and what has been reported here. I could be completely wrong and that wouldn’t surprise me if I am. Just ask my wife, she will tell you I am not perfect (she’s a saint for dealing with me).


----------



## HuskerATL

CalGalTraveler said:


> @dayooper Good points. I thought if you pay the Max fee your resales also are requalified with it? If not, Max is not appealing because we only have one 8400 pt retail deed which would not reserve a corner in the basement at a DRI property when a week at P@P runs $21,500 points. If true, the Max population which is using 10 month searches will be extremely small because we could only make a small search with 8400 points at 10 months no matter how many searches the elite allows.
> 
> Max or not, we will be very happy using Legacy with our low cost resale points.
> 
> I can see the fear selling by reps now, "You will not have access to Legacy inventory if you don't upgrade."  MVC and Vistana reps repeat the same BS.  Don't believe it.  We will likely be dead or will have sold our units by the time those changes affect us.


It is interesting. The sales rep commented that we need to have retail to get in Max (he also commented that we wouldn't even have had that owners meeting if we didn't own the retail Tuscany) and pay the $7k fee or upgrade a resale to retail, like they were pushing us for, or buy a retail and you are in for free. However, in the Max FAQs, they do mention options for resale owners but maybe it will be upgrading. He mentioned after you are in Max, additional resale purchases will add to the point total like they do now so it does sound like it is just a matter of joining it but once in, it is business as usual. However, the other questions that folks have raised about MF cost increases, etc. aren't answered yet and I didn't ask that at the meeting.


----------



## Mongoose

letsgobobby said:


> Right but even my annual MF plus my club annual fee doesn't actually cover the ops/maintenance in Hawaii. Who's paying for that, a Hawaii owner who used their week elsewhere?


That is how its supposed to work.  The MFs covers operations, taxes, reserves, etc.  Now if the HOA is under funding and differing maintenance and renovations, its likely you could get caught with a special assessment.  Log in to you resorts HOA site and look at the financials.  that will give you a complete breakdown.  If you are talking about big HGV, well they make all their money and then some off selling developer units and retail prices.


----------



## Mongoose

HuskerATL said:


> It is interesting. The sales rep commented that we need to have retail to get in Max (he also commented that we wouldn't even have had that owners meeting if we didn't own the retail Tuscany) and pay the $7k fee or upgrade a resale to retail, like they were pushing us for, or buy a retail and you are in for free. However, in the Max FAQs, they do mention options for resale owners but maybe it will be upgrading. He mentioned after you are in Max, additional resale purchases will add to the point total like they do now so it does sound like it is just a matter of joining it but once in, it is business as usual. However, the other questions that folks have raised about MF cost increases, etc. aren't answered yet and I didn't ask that at the meeting.


I suspect the new developer prices are built around and include HGVMax.  The $7K is if you have existing retail and don't buy more.  They are trying to make it look attractive to buy more points and get something "free".


----------



## Mongoose

CalGalTraveler said:


> I would expect Elites to have free access at a minimum.


You would think, if they valued their owners.  Its basic timeshare/sales tactics.  Sell someone on something new and shiny and play to their egos.  Then introduce something new and shiny and if they don't buy they are no longer "special".


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward

letsgobobby said:


> If HGVC Legacy availability declines over time, resale deeds anywhere other than desirable locations will decline in value, too. Then they can Exercise ROFR at lower prices, and resell those units in Max. I guess that's good business in their part, especially if there are enough suckers willing to pay developer prices and now, Max MFs.
> 
> I have always wondered about the economics of resale. How can I buy a week for $1200 at location A and pay a MF of $1500  and reserve a week in a 2 BR in Hawaii and have the economics work out? I'm getting a deal that's too good to be true, who's footing the bill?



It's not "too good to be true". Here's where you pay (so to speak) - there is no guarantee you can get that Hawaii week. You have access to that 2 BR Hawaiian week IF AVAILABLE. That's part of the exchange setup. However if you <own> at the Hawaiian resort, you get initial priority (the home week reservation) over anybody else except other home week owners at that resort. You're trading choice priority for monetary savings. . .


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Plus if you don't trade it for points, they rent it out for cash via Open Season which is pure profit because the MF was paid by the owner.


----------



## letsgobobby

HuskerATL said:


> It is interesting. The sales rep commented that we need to have retail to get in Max (he also commented that we wouldn't even have had that owners meeting if we didn't own the retail Tuscany) and pay the $7k fee or upgrade a resale to retail, like they were pushing us for, or buy a retail and you are in for free. However, in the Max FAQs, they do mention options for resale owners but maybe it will be upgrading. He mentioned after you are in Max, additional resale purchases will add to the point total like they do now so it does sound like it is just a matter of joining it but once in, it is business as usual. However, the other questions that folks have raised about MF cost increases, etc. aren't answered yet and I didn't ask that at the meeting.


Maybe already answered, but once you have a max eligible retail deed, are all your points Max, or only the ones attached to the retail deed?


----------



## Mongoose

letsgobobby said:


> Maybe already answered, but once you have a max eligible retail deed, are all your points Max, or only the ones attached to the retail deed?


I doubt if your resale points would be Max without additional $.


----------



## HuskerATL

letsgobobby said:


> Maybe already answered, but once you have a max eligible retail deed, are all your points Max, or only the ones attached to the retail deed?


I don't know. I know in my contract, that I didn't do, in the fee list, it says $199/contract Inventory Activation Fee so maybe you can choose which to add.


----------



## NiteMaire

HuskerATL said:


> I don't know. I know in my contract, that I didn't do, in the fee list, it says $199/contract Inventory Activation Fee so maybe you can choose which to add.


Maybe, but that would be different than what has been stated. Then again, it could have changed prior to implementation or someone had bad information. Shocking, I know. I actually think they'd get more people to join Max if owners could pick and choose which units to move to Max (outside of new purchases). Then again, would owners now have 2 club fees?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Good thing you rescinded. I would have been upset if it only covered the retail unit.

Here is another question:  Assuming you opt a retail unit into Max and cannot bring along your resales to MAX.


Do such owners access both systems - Max and Legacy systems separately? How do you combine points if one account is low? or borrow from future years?
What's happens if you sell your Max retail unit and keep your resales? Are you kicked out of Max and lose all benefits even though you paid the opt in fee?

IMO from a practical and IT complexity perspective, I would surmise all resale and retail would have to be together in one account to make Max work, unless they firewall or bucket your Retail/resale points (useless - deal breaker).

Most owners only own one deed so HGV doesn't design in terms of multi-unit owners. However, as we experienced with the division of the bHC points and Club points into separate buckets it remains a mess to this day and usually requires a call into specialized people to manually get the right points in the right buckets after a cancellation.

I don't have high hopes that they have thought this through, yet sales is saying whatever will sell without a functioning website to know how this will ultimately work. There are going to be disappointed MAX owners unless they combine the Max opt in with resales and other retail units.


----------



## HuskerATL

NiteMaire said:


> Maybe, but that would be different than what has been stated. Then again, it could have changed prior to implementation or someone had bad information. Shocking, I know. I actually think they'd get more people to join Max if owners could pick and choose which units to move to Max (outside of new purchases). Then again, would owners now have 2 club fees?


Max has a club fee of $281 but the sales rep said that we would pay the difference between the $193  club fee that we already paid for this year so that implies that there is just one fee if you join.


----------



## HuskerATL

CalGalTraveler said:


> What's happens if you sell your Max retail unit and keep your resales? Are you kicked out of Max and lose all benefits even though you paid the opt in fee?


This is my question about my Tuscany property. If we did join, leveraging our retail Tuscany and then dumped it, would we be booted since the rest of what we own is resale? Like how Elite works. For us and if we would have done that deal, we would have come in with only retail but the sales rep said that we could add to our point total in Max with future resales. I am not sure how it works by coming in with both.


----------



## HuskerATL

Okay.  Here are the parts of the Kohala contract mentioning Max:


----------



## NiteMaire

HuskerATL said:


> Okay. Here are the parts of the Kohala contract mentioning Max:
> 
> View attachment 52089
> 
> View attachment 52090
> 
> View attachment 52091
> 
> View attachment 52092
> 
> 
> View attachment 52093
> 
> View attachment 52095


So now we know that the HGV Max 6 month inventory adds access to THE Club (DRI) inventory. And we see Max doesn't automatically transfer with resale. I'd like to see the contract they offer to DRI owners who join Max. I presume it's the reciprocal for HGVC inventory.


----------



## escanoe

letsgobobby said:


> Maybe already answered, but once you have a max eligible retail deed, are all your points Max, or only the ones attached to the retail deed?



I feel for sure you have an opportunity to get all your points in Max when you do this …. I am also wondering what happens if you buy more resale after you are in Max.


----------



## HuskerATL

escanoe said:


> I feel for sure you have an opportunity to get all your points in Max when you do this …. I am also wondering what happens if you buy more resale after you are in Max.


according to the sales rep last week, they just add in like they do now.


----------



## GT75

@HuskerATL, what were the MFs listed in this contract?


----------



## HuskerATL

GT75 said:


> @HuskerATL, what were the MFs listed in this contract?



About $1600. It is for a platinum Kohala Suites 2 bedroom Premier. I am away from the house but can look when I get home for the exact number. It was just a little less than my two gold Blvds combined which is about $1,800. I would have went from 16,000 points to 15,360.


----------



## GT75

HuskerATL said:


> About $1600. It is for a platinum Kohala Suites 2 bedroom Premier.



OK, thanks.    It looks like it should be around $1758.93.     I don't see this as being a trust.     The MFs being stated (@HuskerATL, check when you get home) are for deeded HGVC property.   I see this as being an exchange program between HGVC and DRI (with a required purchase in order to be included in this exchange program).







*Kohala Suites / All 2BR units   (from out 2022 MFs Sticky).*

2022 Operating Fee $1,203.75
2022 Reserve Fee $398.71
2022 Real Estate Tax $80.96
2022 Hawaii GE Tax $75.51

*Total $1758.93*


----------



## HuskerATL

GT75 said:


> OK, thanks.    It looks like it should be around $1758.93.     I don't see this as being a trust.     The MFs being stated (@HuskerATL, check when you get home) are for deeded HGVC property.   I see this as being an exchange program between HGVC and DRI (with a required purchase in order to be included in this exchange program).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Kohala Suites / All 2BR units   (from out 2022 MFs Sticky).*
> 
> 2022 Operating Fee $1,203.75
> 2022 Reserve Fee $398.71
> 2022 Real Estate Tax $80.96
> 2022 Hawaii GE Tax $75.51
> 
> *Total $1758.93*


You are correct. It is for a deed not into a trust. I don't think the trust/point system is rolled out yet.


----------



## Smclaugh99

I just did a owner’s update at Parc Soleil today. Mainly wanted to get info on the Max program but not expecting to make any moves. As a background. I became Elite Premier (36,600 old points, 58,560 new) in October 2021. Of course that was mere months before the program went into effect, lol. I also have resale deeds (26,250 old, 42,000 new). The vast majority of my ownership is purposefully New York-based (HCNY, West 57th, The Quin). My current ownership would be HGV Max Premier Plus in the new system.  Things that I clarified:

Retail points only will count towards the Max Elite tiers. However once you are in, the total number of points (including resale) are usable in the Max program. I clarified that twice. Future resale deeds be added to the usable point total.
There are surprisingly a number of ballers who are shelling out $500k++ to get to Centum.
You can choose not to ever go into the Max program and use existing ownership. However all future properties (including the Embarc properties) and upcoming bHC locations will only be available if you are part of Max.
The $7k entry without a purchase is the lowest “introductory” price possible and dependent upon what deeds you own (including number of deeds). I have 7 deeds. They said bHC ownership will be well over $10,000 to convert if no purchase is made. I should’ve hammered that point down a little more with them.
Apparently within Max, there will be legitimate benefits/discounts in terms of cruises, other travel, special events as well as access to Quintess collection of properties.  Though I’m highly suspicious since none of their prior perks have been worth the hassle or the hullabaloo.
Future properties will be in a trust and points-based, not deed-based. Maintenance fees will be more for those.
_*The Offer*_
I have 3 resale W57 weeks (2 studio plus platinum on one deed and 1 studio plus gold).  After declining various offers, they offered to take back the gold week and upgrade to a platinum week for $15,000. MF would be the same. Equity from the gold is $31,000. I paid $760 on eBay in 2019. This would enroll me in Max for close to what I would have to pay to enroll with no purchase. This would also “legitimize” one of my resales to retail, giving me almost 67,000 points to count toward Centum (though I cannot ever see myself getting to that level). *[Edit: offer also included 25,600 bonus points*]. I went ahead and did it.  I’ve invested so much into this program already, it doesn’t make sense to not be available to access future opportunities, even though at this time, I am not interested in the other Diamond properties (other than Embarc). As with everything, YMMV.

Sean


----------



## Nowaker

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> 22 cents per point



ROTFL! My average $0.10 MFpp is laughing.

And that's also the reason why MVC made zero sense to me. No reasonable ROI on either retail or resale purchases. With HGVC, no ROI on retail, but resale was only 1-2 years to break even - and later on full profit.

The same applies to HICV. A ridiculous acquisition price aside, their trust points maintenance fees buy you less compared to good HGVC deeds.

I only compared HGVC, HICV and MVC. Neither could beat resale HGVC.



WORLD TRAVELER said:


> 2. HGVC Max Elite Search Requests all properties 10 months out



I highly doubt this will be a case. If anything, it will ONLY auto-book Max inventory, and not non-Max weeks inventory.



iiderman said:


> With this Max program existing elite members are the losers along with resales.. after spending all that cash being promised a better club with more destinations, they benefit zero from the merger!


Yes, but did resale owners contribute to the merger? No, we didn't pay ridiculous retail prices, which is what generates profit and can be put towards mergers. Resale owners pay pennies to HGVC for deed transfers, and pennies in annual fees. Retail buyers however, contributed to the merger but got nothing out of it, that is 100% true.



Smclaugh99 said:


> they offered to take back the gold week and upgrade to a platinum week for $15,000


Same MFs, but how many annual points did you give up and how many annual points were you given?


----------



## HuskerATL

There is a person in the FB group who had a small 3400 deed and upgraded for $7k and that got her in. She basically paid $7k to go from a biannual to an annual of the same size and got Max so there is a big range that they will do it.


----------



## NiteMaire

Smclaugh99 said:


> I just did a owner’s update at Parc Soleil today. Mainly wanted to get info on the Max program but not expecting to make any moves. As a background. I became Elite Premier (36,600 old points, 58,560 new) in October 2021. Of course that was mere months before the program went into effect, lol. I also have resale deeds (26,250 old, 42,000 new). The vast majority of my ownership is purposefully New York-based (HCNY, West 57th, The Quin). My current ownership would be HGV Max Premier Plus in the new system. Things that I clarified:
> 
> Retail points only will count towards the Max Elite tiers. However once you are in, the total number of points (including resale) are usable in the Max program. I clarified that twice. Future resale deeds be added to the usable point total.
> There are surprisingly a number of ballers who are shelling out $500k++ to get to Centum.
> You can choose not to ever go into the Max program and use existing ownership. However all future properties (including the Embarc properties) and upcoming bHC locations will only be available if you are part of Max.
> The $7k entry without a purchase is the lowest “introductory” price possible and dependent upon what deeds you own (including number of deeds). I have 7 deeds. They said bHC ownership will be well over $10,000 to convert if no purchase is made. I should’ve hammered that point down a little more with them.
> Apparently within Max, there will be legitimate benefits/discounts in terms of cruises, other travel, special events as well as access to Quintess collection of properties. Though I’m highly suspicious since none of their prior perks have been worth the hassle or the hullabaloo.
> Future properties will be in a trust and points-based, not deed-based. Maintenance fees will be more for those.
> _*The Offer*_
> I have 3 resale W57 weeks (2 studio plus platinum on one deed and 1 studio plus gold). After declining various offers, they offered to take back the gold week and upgrade to a platinum week for $15,000. MF would be the same. Equity from the gold is $31,000. I paid $760 on eBay in 2019. This would enroll me in Max for close to what I would have to pay to enroll with no purchase. This would also “legitimize” one of my resales to retail, giving me almost 67,000 points to count toward Centum (though I cannot ever see myself getting to that level). I went ahead and did it. I’ve invested so much into this program already, it doesn’t make sense to not be available to access future opportunities, even though at this time, I am not interested in the other Diamond properties (other than Embarc). As with everything, YMMV.
> 
> Sean


This, along with what @HuskerATL posted, provides great clarity. Except you stated all points go into Max, and it seems @HuskerATL indicated they can pick and choose. Regardless, of the 1,000,000+ threads on HGV Max, this has been the most informative for me. 
We need the equivalent on the DRI forum (though I suspect it almost all applies). 
Help me with the following scenario: existing owner purchases new and joins Max what is the disadvantage of having all points in Max? Does it really matter (beyond credit toward elite) if the previous purchases were resale prior to April 4th?


----------



## HuskerATL

NiteMaire said:


> @HuskerATL indicated they can pick and choose.



Just to clarify. I don't know. I just saw the $199/contract fee and wondered if we get the option of deciding which go in. We probably don't. It is probably an all or nothing deal so my 8 contracts would cost me $1,600 plus the $281 plus the $7k.....I suspect.


----------



## Smclaugh99

Smclaugh99 said:


> I just did a owner’s update at Parc Soleil today. Mainly wanted to get info on the Max program but not expecting to make any moves. As a background. I became Elite Premier (36,600 old points, 58,560 new) in October 2021. Of course that was mere months before the program went into effect, lol. I also have resale deeds (26,250 old, 42,000 new). The vast majority of my ownership is purposefully New York-based (HCNY, West 57th, The Quin). My current ownership would be HGV Max Premier Plus in the new system.  Things that I clarified:
> 
> Retail points only will count towards the Max Elite tiers. However once you are in, the total number of points (including resale) are usable in the Max program. I clarified that twice. Future resale deeds be added to the usable point total.
> There are surprisingly a number of ballers who are shelling out $500k++ to get to Centum.
> You can choose not to ever go into the Max program and use existing ownership. However all future properties (including the Embarc properties) and upcoming bHC locations will only be available if you are part of Max.
> The $7k entry without a purchase is the lowest “introductory” price possible and dependent upon what deeds you own (including number of deeds). I have 7 deeds. They said bHC ownership will be well over $10,000 to convert if no purchase is made. I should’ve hammered that point down a little more with them.
> Apparently within Max, there will be legitimate benefits/discounts in terms of cruises, other travel, special events as well as access to Quintess collection of properties.  Though I’m highly suspicious since none of their prior perks have been worth the hassle or the hullabaloo.
> Future properties will be in a trust and points-based, not deed-based. Maintenance fees will be more for those.
> _*The Offer*_
> I have 3 resale W57 weeks (2 studio plus platinum on one deed and 1 studio plus gold).  After declining various offers, they offered to take back the gold week and upgrade to a platinum week for $15,000. MF would be the same. Equity from the gold is $31,000. I paid $760 on eBay in 2019. This would enroll me in Max for close to what I would have to pay to enroll with no purchase. This would also “legitimize” one of my resales to retail, giving me almost 67,000 points to count toward Centum (though I cannot ever see myself getting to that level). *[Edit: offer also included 25,600 bonus points*]. I went ahead and did it.  I’ve invested so much into this program already, it doesn’t make sense to not be available to access future opportunities, even though at this time, I am not interested in the other Diamond properties (other than Embarc). As with everything, YMMV.
> 
> Sean



I totally forgot to include the 25,600 bonus points in my initial draft. That translates to about $2500 that I can use towards maintenance fees. So really my cost was closer to $12,500. Sorry for the late addition.


----------



## Nowaker

Nowaker said:


> Same MFs, but how many annual points did you give up and how many annual points were you given?


 
@Smclaugh99 ping


----------



## Smclaugh99

NiteMaire said:


> This, along with what @HuskerATL posted, provides great clarity. Except you stated all points go into Max, and it seems @HuskerATL indicated they can pick and choose. Regardless, of the 1,000,000+ threads on HGV Max, this has been the most informative for me.
> We need the equivalent on the DRI forum (though I suspect it almost all applies).
> Help me with the following scenario: existing owner purchases new and joins Max what is the disadvantage of having all points in Max? Does it really matter (beyond credit toward elite) if the previous purchases were resale prior to April 4th?


I wouldn’t look at it as the HGVC club points suddenly become HGV Max points. I think it’s merely the existing points now have a bigger inventory to search through. But the points don’t get converted or separated into buckets or anything like that.


----------



## NiteMaire

Smclaugh99 said:


> I wouldn’t look at it as the HGVC club points suddenly become HGV Max points. I think it’s merely the existing points now have a bigger inventory to search through. But the points don’t get converted or separated into buckets or anything like that.


Yea, mostly agree with this...at the 6-month point (as well as any new resorts added in the future).

ETA: if that is part of what you "gain", what's the downside (outside of no access to this inventory and having to pay for reservations) of not converting existing ownership to Max (or buying a resale that doesn't qualify)?


----------



## Smclaugh99

Nowaker said:


> @Smclaugh99 ping



Keeping with the old points (which to me is far easier) my 3750 West 57th Studio Plus Gold week was upgraded to 5250 Studio Plus Platinum week. Net gain of 1500 points. No change in maintenance fees. Cost of platinum is $46,000 and gold is $31,000.  These were the identical prices that I remember back in 2010 When I first bought in at W. 57th.


----------



## Nowaker

Smclaugh99 said:


> Keeping with the old points (which to me is far easier) my 3750 West 57th Studio Plus Gold week was upgraded to 5250 Studio Plus Platinum week. Net gain of 1500 points. No change in maintenance fees. Cost of platinum is $46,000 and gold is $31,000.  These were the identical prices that I remember back in 2010 When I first bought in at W. 57th.


OK, so you got:

- Max
- next Elite level
- extra 1,500 old / 2,400 new points for the same MF
- 25,600 bonus points of $2,560 value in MF credits.

Effectively, paying $12,350.
Hope it works out well for you.


----------



## HuskerATL

Smclaugh99 said:


> I totally forgot to include the 25,600 bonus points in my initial draft. That translates to about $2500 that I can use towards maintenance fees. So really my cost was closer to $12,500. Sorry for the late addition.



They offered me 12,500....


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@Smclaugh99 Very helpful. So your existing two resale 5250 W57 deeds that you did not convert can also be used in Max as points to reserve DRI right?

Lastly, you have full access to HGVC inventory, not just HGVC deeds opted onto Max as separate inventory? If so do you use HGVC portal same as today and then go into Max portal to book DRI inventory with same points?


----------



## HuskerATL

GT75 said:


> OK, thanks.    It looks like it should be around $1758.93.     I don't see this as being a trust.     The MFs being stated (@HuskerATL, check when you get home) are for deeded HGVC property.   I see this as being an exchange program between HGVC and DRI (with a required purchase in order to be included in this exchange program).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Kohala Suites / All 2BR units   (from out 2022 MFs Sticky).*
> 
> 2022 Operating Fee $1,203.75
> 2022 Reserve Fee $398.71
> 2022 Real Estate Tax $80.96
> 2022 Hawaii GE Tax $75.51
> 
> *Total $1758.93*



Just looked in the contract and the Assessment Fee, is $1,683.42, exclusive of club dues, excise taxes, and the nightly Transient Accommodation Taxes so a bit more if you add in the taxes...$1,839.89.  I wonder if it is a little more because it is the 2BR premier?  Either way, I am glad that I didn't do it and went with the Scotland.


----------



## HuskerATL

Smclaugh99 said:


> I wouldn’t look at it as the HGVC club points suddenly become HGV Max points. I think it’s merely the existing points now have a bigger inventory to search through. But the points don’t get converted or separated into buckets or anything like that.



agreed but it sounds like it will be a different portal though but you are right, it will probably be the same bucket of points.


----------



## NiteMaire

HuskerATL said:


> agreed but it sounds like it will be a different portal though but you are right, it will probably be the same bucket of points.


I think I saw it referred to as a "micro site" or something like that.  I agree it'll be a different portal; it'll likely collate the inventory from the different systems based on the time from checkin.


----------



## escanoe

I believe the portions below show HGVC’s true intentions on a la carte HVC Max Pricing.

There is little to no intent to actually sell the upgrade.

They simply have priced it that way as a tool to make developer purchases look more valuable.



Smclaugh99 said:


> The $7k entry without a purchase is the lowest “introductory” price possible and dependent upon what deeds you own (including number of deeds). I have 7 deeds. They said bHC ownership will be well over $10,000 to convert if no purchase is made. I should’ve hammered that point down a little more with them.
> …….After declining various offers, they offered to take back the gold week and upgrade to a platinum week for $15,000. …….
> 
> This would enroll me in Max for close to what I would have to pay to enroll with no purchase.


----------



## SmithOp

NiteMaire said:


> Yea, mostly agree with this...at the 6-month point (as well as any new resorts added in the future).
> 
> ETA: if that is part of what you "gain", what's the downside (outside of no access to this inventory and having to pay for reservations) of not converting existing ownership to Max (or buying a resale that doesn't qualify)?


I only own one resale legacy deed, if I had to turn it in to have the points become Max points the downside would be MFpp no? Mine are now 8 cents a point, Max are 22cents! Even if I buy pure Max points to get in my blended rate goes up.

I will be happy just to keep my legacy deed and stay at the legacy resort thank you very much, at my age I've got about 12 more years of travel then I'm selling.

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


----------



## Smclaugh99

CalGalTraveler said:


> @Smclaugh99 Very helpful. So your existing two resale 5250 W57 deeds that you did not convert can also be used in Max as points to reserve DRI right?
> 
> Lastly, you have full access to HGVC inventory, not just HGVC deeds opted onto Max as separate inventory? If so do you use HGVC portal same as today and then go into Max portal to book DRI inventory with same points?


Yes - once enrolled in Max, all points (including the resale) can be used just like normal across the HGVC properties. Not sure about the portal yet. Will take a bit of time for me to see the updates in my profile.


----------



## Smclaugh99

I took pics of the laminated HGV Max sales brochure. Attached below. I hope you can zoom and read.  Some shots were in other threads.


----------



## HuskerATL

Smclaugh99 said:


> I took pics of the laminated HGV Max sales brochure. Attached below. I hope you can zoom and read.  Some shots were in other threads.  View attachment 52118View attachment 52119View attachment 52120View attachment 52121View attachment 52122View attachment 52123View attachment 52124


Thanks for sharing. These are helpful.


----------



## Nowaker

Smclaugh99 said:


> I took pics of the laminated HGV Max sales brochure. Attached below. I hope you can zoom and read.  Some shots were in other threads.


Could you upload it as Imgur album and post a link here? This forum resizes the pictures and the text is very hard to read.


----------



## Cyberc

Do we have an estimate as to when HGVC will publish information about Max?

Right now we have a lot of information sourced from salesmen and we all know how potential true that can be. As long as HGVC haven’t published anything in writing they could potentially change how the system works.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

SmithOp said:


> I only own one resale legacy deed, if I had to turn it in to have the points become Max points the downside would be MFpp no? Mine are now 8 cents a point, Max are 22cents! Even if I buy pure Max points to get in my blended rate goes up.
> 
> I will be happy just to keep my legacy deed and stay at the legacy resort thank you very much, at my age I've got about 12 more years of travel then I'm selling.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk



It appears that Max doesn't change any of this for you except a minor risk if you book a popular unit during club season and Max Elite 10 month requests take all the units (low probability for the next 5 - 15+ years). Why? Because:

We know the number of Elite's is small
The number of Max Elites will be even smaller (how many will pay $10k+ to buy in?)
The odds of Max Elites using their limited loyalty requests
For your exact unit (n out of n units need to be reserved via loyalty request e.g. 10 out of 10 units odds)
On the same dates (1 out of 52 weeks odds)

is even smaller.

Keep doing what you are doing and enjoy your vacations!

If you want DRI access MAX is one avenue, but you have to evaluate if spending more to get it is worth it vs. renting or trading RCI. (probably not in your case).

Just to clarify, the MF is not .22 cents. You would be trading into a new retail deed with the MF attached to that. Eventually when they transition to a points trust program like MVC's the MF is expected to be .22 cents per point for new buyers at sales offices. The trust points program has not been announced. Deeds/resale are the most cost effective and safest way to go.


----------



## dougp26364

Cyberc said:


> Do we have an estimate as to when HGVC will publish information about Max?
> 
> Right now we have a lot of information sourced from salesmen and we all know how potential true that can be. As long as HGVC haven’t published anything in writing they could potentially change how the system works.



I’m not sure I’ve seen an estimate. About the only truth or fact is Hilton backing up the sales staff saying current new purchases will get MAX included. After that, it’s anyones guess what’s really real and what’s sales staff embellishment. After all, fear is their #1 sales tool and the vast majority of owners will get burned by it like moths flying into a flame


----------



## HuskerATL

dougp26364 said:


> I’m not sure I’ve seen an estimate. About the only truth or fact is Hilton backing up the sales staff saying current new purchases will get MAX included. After that, it’s anyones guess what’s really real and what’s sales staff embellishment. After all, fear is their #1 sales tool and the vast majority of owners will get burned by it like moths flying into a flame


Supposedly a Q3 update is coming according to the sales rep last week.


----------



## dougp26364

HuskerATL said:


> Supposedly a Q3 update is coming according to the sales rep last week.



Three words stick out. Update and sales rep


----------



## Smclaugh99

Nowaker said:


> Could you upload it as Imgur album and post a link here? This forum resizes the pictures and the text is very hard to read.


OK. I’m usually pretty good at technology but I’ve never used that app. I think I did it right. Link below.



https://imgur.com/a/KVrf8Qt


----------



## letsgobobby

If I want Embarc regularly ie annually, best way is to buy Embarc, right? Not about to do that, i don't have the inclination to learn a whole new system, but buying HGV to get access to Embarc seems illogical.


----------



## dioxide45

Cyberc said:


> Do we have an estimate as to when HGVC will publish information about Max?
> 
> Right now we have a lot of information sourced from salesmen and we all know how potential true that can be. As long as HGVC haven’t published anything in writing they could potentially change how the system works.


What we have seen might be all we will see unless you buy in and actually start using Max in a practical sense. We may see announcements of new resorts when they come online as HVC, but that might be the extent of it. Timeshare companies often lack transparency. They won't publish how they manage Max inventory behind the scenes. What we have is probably all we will get.


----------



## HuskerATL

dioxide45 said:


> What we have seen might be all we will see unless you buy in and actually start using Max in a practical sense. We may see announcements of new resorts when they come online as HVC, but that might be the extent of it. Timeshare companies often lack transparency. They won't publish how they manage Max inventory behind the scenes. What we have is probably all we will get.


First there has to be a website for them to log into, which doesn't exist yet. There are people who are "in" Max right now but can't log into anything other than what we have now. This is either a very sloppy rollout or an intentionally vague process to drive sales.


----------



## dioxide45

HuskerATL said:


> First there has to be a website for them to log into, which doesn't exist yet. There are people who are "in" Max right now but can't log into anything other than what we have now. This is either a very sloppy rollout or an intentionally vague process to drive sales.


I suspect the latter. But aside from a website for Max owners, I doubt non Max owners will be given many more details except what they find out at a sales presentation.


----------



## HuskerATL

Smclaugh99 said:


> OK. I’m usually pretty good at technology but I’ve never used that app. I think I did it right. Link below.
> 
> 
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/KVrf8Qt


Thank you for doing this. I still can't read the fine print at the bottom. I wanted to see if there is a statement saying, "this is all BS and we really don't know yet what will be in the Elite Max program".


----------



## dioxide45

Here is


HuskerATL said:


> Thank you for doing this. I still can't read the fine print at the bottom. I wanted to see if there is a statement saying, "this is all BS and we really don't know yet what will be in the Elite Max program".


Here is the fine print

First Photo; 
*HGV Max Benefit available late 2022. Existing Hilton Grand Vacations Club Members retain current Hilton Honors Conversion.
**Proposed HGV Max features. Availability may vary based on product ownership. Timing of availability for all Members not currently available.

Second Photo; 
*HGV Max Benefit available late 2022. Existing Hilton Grand Vacations Club Members retain current Hilton Honors Conversion.
**Proposed HGV Max features. Availability may vary based on product ownership. Timing of availability for all Members not currently available.

Third Photo; 
*HGV Max Benefit available late 2022. Existing Hilton Grand Vacations Club Members retain current Hilton Honors Conversion.
**Proposed HGV Max features. Availability may vary based on product ownership. Timing of availability for all Members not currently available.

Fourth Photo;
*HGV Max Benefit available late 2022.
**Proposed HGV Max features. Availability may vary based on product ownership. Timing of availability for all Members not currently available.

Fifth Photo; Fine print is cut off

Sixth Photo;
*HGV Max Benefit available late 2022.
**Proposed HGV Max features. Availability may vary based on product ownership. Timing of availability for all Members not currently available.
1. Complementary guest certificates will be provided as part of the bundled fee (depending on tier) and additional certificates will be available for purchase at select resorts.
2. At inclusive events, members will receive benefits such a s preferential seating, VIP treatment, etc., Including exclusive Elite Experiential offers, also includes invitation only partner events and intimate events that bring together small groups to bond over special interests (e.g., Games Beard foundation dinners, tour of the Tiffany's archival vault)

Seventh Photo; No fine print or cut off.


----------



## HuskerATL

dioxide45 said:


> Proposed HGV Max features. Availability may vary based on product ownership. Timing of availability for all Members not currently available.


This is the legalize of what I said could be there.


----------



## pedro47

How many of the 400,000 DRI Owners understand what is going with the Hilton acquisition of DRI?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

So it appears:

1) The first two slides are for HGV Conversions "HGV Member enhanced tiers"
2) Slide 3 "Future state" may be items they are working on but not official for HGV owners (hence, could be BS)
3) Slides 4 - 5 "The CLUB Enhanced Tiers" appear to be what DRI owners get
4) Slide 6 "Future State" I surmise but it is not stated, is for DRI owners since it follows "The CLUB" slides.

Thank you @Smclaugh99. This is more information in writing than HGV has given to date. 

We are hoping to attend a presentation in the next few months so it helps to be informed so we can make an educated decision as to whether this makes sense for us.

In the meantime, we are going to enjoy our legacy ownership and our inexpensive resale points.


----------



## HuskerATL

CalGalTraveler said:


> So it appears:
> 
> 1) The first two slides are for HGV Conversions "HGV Member enhanced tiers"
> 2) Slide 3 "Future state" may be items they are working on but not official for HGV owners (hence, could be BS)
> 3) Slides 4 - 5 "The CLUB Enhanced Tiers" appear to be what DRI owners get
> 4) Slide 6 "Future State" I surmise but it is not stated, is for DRI owners since it follows "The CLUB" slides.
> 
> Thank you @Smclaugh99. This is more information in writing than HGV has given to date.



If you look at the language from the contract that I posted, "The Club" is HGV Max.


----------



## Nowaker

Smclaugh99 said:


> OK. I’m usually pretty good at technology but I’ve never used that app. I think I did it right. Link below.


Thanks!


----------



## dayooper

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect the latter. But aside from a website for Max owners, I doubt non Max owners will be given many more details except what they find out at a sales presentation.



Unfortunately, so do I.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

HuskerATL said:


> If you look at the language from the contract that I posted, "The Club" is HGV Max.
> 
> View attachment 52175




Ugh! Good point. DRI also known as "The CLUB"?  (and of course not to be confused with "By Hilton Club" or HGVC!)

"The CLUB" slide categories are almost a repeat of the first two slides but in different order e.g. "Larger Brand Resort Portfolio" on the CLUB page has added wording "Additional...HGV and Hilton Club locations." which I surmise is targeted to DRI owners because that wouldn't make sense for HGV Legacy.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> Ugh! Isn't DRI also known as "The CLUB"?  (and of course not to be confused with "By Hilton Club" or HGVC!)
> 
> "The CLUB" slide categories are almost a repeat of the first two slides but in different order e.g. "Larger Brand Resort Portfolio" on the CLUB page has added wording "Additional...HGV and Hilton Club locations." which I surmise is targeted to DRI owners because that wouldn't make sense for HGV Legacy.


THE Club that HGV Max will be using is operated By Diamond Resorts International. I have a great suspicion that Max is just going to be using the exact same club that exists today under DRI. They aren't creating anything new except the 6 month booking window for Max reservations.


----------



## letsgobobby

How many bHC/HGVC members were there before the merger with DRI?


----------



## escanoe

Maybe everyone else could read the sales floor language better than me. The details were a blur for me.

How does the limited number of 10 month requests work for elites? Is the number allowed a total for a year or how many can be used concurrently at any given time.

I have accused RCI of being fee hungry, but on the points side everyone has free unlimited OGDs once prepaying the exchange fee. In platinum ($100 per year or whatever) it is unlimited without a requirement to prepay.



CalGalTraveler said:


> It appears that Max doesn't change any of this for you except a minor risk if you book a popular unit during club season and Max Elite 10 month requests take all the units (low probability for the next 5 - 15+ years). Why? Because:
> 
> We know the number of Elite's is small
> The number of Max Elites will be even smaller (how many will pay $10k+ to buy in?)
> The odds of Max Elites using their limited loyalty requests
> For your exact unit (n out of n units need to be reserved via loyalty request e.g. 10 out of 10 units odds)
> On the same dates (1 out of 52 weeks odds)
> 
> is even smaller.
> 
> Keep doing what you are doing and enjoy your vacations!
> 
> If you want DRI access MAX is one avenue, but you have to evaluate if spending more to get it is worth it vs. renting or trading RCI. (probably not in your case).
> 
> Just to clarify, the MF is not .22 cents. You would be trading into a new retail deed with the MF attached to that. Eventually when they transition to a points trust program like MVC's the MF is expected to be .22 cents per point for new buyers at sales offices. The trust points program has not been announced. Deeds/resale are the most cost effective and safest way to go.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@HuskerATL and @dioxide45 Great observations! So it appears that Max gives HGV owners rights directly into existing inventory for DRI "The CLUB" via a mini-portal. This suggests this an exchange system between the two inventory programs and not a separate inventory pool like MVC's DP deed enrollment program. (So Max is superior to MVC's DP program because you get access to all inventory available at 6 months at HGV DRI approved resorts not the subset of weeks that MAX owners deposit).

Now we need to understand if HGVC MAX owners continue to have rights to all existing HGVC inventory once the portal is launched.  If DRI contracts are a mirror of this wording but for HGVC, then this confirms this is an exchange program.

No wonder they are having difficulties with integrating Embarc! Embarc owners rejected The CLUB via legal action so cannot legally combine. In the fall Embarc owners accepted HGVC so HGV has no choice but to:

1) Integrate Embarc into HGVs Legacy pool (Yes, please! but would be a mini exchange since Embarc is points vs. deeds) How would The CLUB Max owners access?)
2) Set up a third access pool in MAX to Embarc (expensive and complicated by adding another inventory pool to sync points usage and reservation holds across 3 systems.)
3) Keep Embarc entirely separate and try to upsell Embarc owners to HGVC or the CLUB. Hard to do.


----------



## pedro47

Smclaugh99 said:


> I took pics of the laminated HGV Max sales brochure. Attached below. I hope you can zoom and read.  Some shots were in other threads.  View attachment 52118View attachment 52119View attachment 52120View attachment 52121View attachment 52122View attachment 52123View attachment 52124


I cannot read the fine print or graphs. I can only read the bold words.


----------



## dioxide45

I had to download each of the images and open it in a program on my computer so I could zoom in to see the fine print.


----------



## HuskerATL

pedro47 said:


> I cannot read the fine print or graphs. I can only read the bold words.


Look at dioxide45's post, https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/introducing-hgv-max-—-our-new-membership-program-official-announcement-from-hgvc.337066/post-2769748 but you can also open Smclough99's post in imgur, https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/introducing-hgv-max-—-our-new-membership-program-official-announcement-from-hgvc.337066/post-2769734 on a PC and see them better.  I was trying to read them on my phone and couldn't but on a PC monitor, you can.


----------



## escanoe

CalGalTraveler said:


> This suggests this an exchange system between the two inventory programs and not a separate inventory pool like MVC's DP deed enrollment program.
> 
> Now we need to understand if HGVC owners continue to have rights to all existing HGVC inventory once the portal is launched.  If DRI contracts are a mirror of this wording but for HGVC, then this confirms this is an exchange program.



I don’t understand this.

I think we know that HGV Max is not a “trust” as it has been described in official documents thus far.

I think we know that HGV Max involves some kind of portal or booking platform where HGV Max members can use points to book reservations across an HGVC / DRI crosswalk at 6 months out.

What suggests it is an “exchange system?” To me an “exchange system” is one where trading takes place in some type of symmetrical or balanced fashion. Ultimately, if the flow of inventory is not balanced as it moves back and forth between HGVC and DRI I worry the integrity of the two separate individual systems may not be maintained.

So I think it should ultimately be some kind of “exchange” but I have not read one word anywhere of meaningful detail as to how this flow of inventory between the two systems will operate in an “exchange like” manner?

When is their next quarterly investor call? That might shed some more light on long-term thinking. However, there is a real lack of detail on the specifics of the new program. At some point there has to be an official program document.


----------



## HuskerATL

escanoe said:


> I don’t understand this.
> 
> I think we know that HGV Max is not a “trust” as it has been described in official documents thus far.
> 
> I think we know that HGV Max involves some kind of portal or booking platform where HGV Max members can use points to book reservations across an HGVC / DRI crosswalk at 6 months out.
> 
> What suggests it is an “exchange system?” To me an “exchange system” is one where trading takes place in some type of symmetrical or balanced fashion. Ultimately, if the flow of inventory is not balanced as it moves back and forth between HGVC and DRI I worry the integrity of the two separate individual systems may not be maintained.
> 
> So I think it should ultimately be some kind of “exchange” but I have not read one word anywhere of meaningful detail as to how this flow of inventory between the two systems will operate in an “exchange like” manner?
> 
> When is their next quarterly investor call? That might shed some more light on long-term thinking. However, there is a real lack of detail on the specifics of the new program. At some point there has to be an official program document.


This suggests it.


----------



## NiteMaire

CalGalTraveler said:


> Ugh! Good point. DRI also known as "The CLUB"? (and of course not to be confused with "By Hilton Club" or HGVC!)


Nuanced, but as @dioxide45 pointed out, DRI's is actually THE Club.  At first, I thought it may have been a typo by HGV, but I think it's intentional with The CLUB vice THE Club.


dioxide45 said:


> THE Club that HGV Max will be using is operated By Diamond Resorts International. I have a great suspicion that Max is just going to be using the exact same club that exists today under DRI. They aren't creating anything new except the 6 month booking window for Max reservations.


Max will be slightly different since it'll have HGVC resorts in it.  Sure, it'll have inventory from THE Club, but it'll also have HGVC inventory.  Although, I'd be happy to see additional HGVC resorts in DeX.  I'm still convinced DeX will be the core of whatever HGV Max portal turns out to be. 


CalGalTraveler said:


> you get access to all inventory available at 6 months at HGV DRI approved resorts not the subset of weeks that MAX owners deposit


That's my take as well.  So on both sides, competition starts at 6 months when members of the other club gains access to your club's inventory.  The only competition I see in addition is for the last minute inventory discounts/open season.


escanoe said:


> What suggests it is an “exchange system?” To me an “exchange system” is one where trading takes place in some type of symmetrical or balanced fashion. Ultimately, if the flow of inventory is not balanced as it moves back and forth between HGVC and DRI I worry the integrity of the two separate individual systems may not be maintained.
> 
> So I think it should ultimately be some kind of “exchange” but I have not read one word anywhere of meaningful detail as to how this flow of inventory between the two systems will operate in an “exchange like” manner?


Again, I think DeX is postured to be the core of the system (with a different name).  You can confirm an "exchange"/reservation into a resort not in your collection (or deeded resort).  It's virtually treated as an owner reservation.  I think the setup is very similar to what they "need" for cross reservations between the multiple clubs.

Well, I see @HuskerATL posted as I was typing this and confirmed HGV Max exchanges will be through DRI which mean DeX will be/is the system.  Now we just need to see how they integrate HGVC resorts into it.  Although, they were already available within it (through RCI).  I just completed a stay at The Grand Islander by HGVC.  I exchanged into using (Traditional) DeX, and received an RCI confirmation (though I'm not an RCI members).  I don't think these cross system exchanges will go through RCI, but we'll see.

Also, I've now seen "THE Club", "The CLUB", and "The Club"...I'm with @CalGalTraveler ...ugh!


----------



## Mongoose

HuskerATL said:


> If you look at the language from the contract that I posted, "The Club" is HGV Max.
> 
> View attachment 52175


"The Club" is the authorized buyer of points in DRI.  This gives HGVC access to those locations.  It does not describe DRI's access to HGVC locations.


----------



## HuskerATL

Mongoose said:


> "The Club" is the authorized buyer of points in DRI.  This gives HGVC access to those locations.  It does not describe DRI's access to HGVC locations.


I am just showing you what is in the contract they presented me with in the offer to buy Kohala and the wording of HGV Max using The Club as an exchange. It could be that they use that exchange and add HGV properties to it.


----------



## escanoe

HuskerATL said:


> This suggests it.



So the word "exchange program" is there in a document. I look forward to learning how the integrity of the exchange is maintained on both sides to keep inventory from moving too much in a single direction. I don't see how it can be both an "exchange program" and encompass making all inventory available on both sides of HGV Max at the 6-month mark.

I am also taking in what @NiteMaire posted. It may utilize DeX the way he suggests, but that would be a fundamental change to how DeX operates today.

DeX is both an internal exchange (spanning DRI from within) as well as a tunnel to RCI on the backend for external exchanges. Maybe they adapt parts of it to serve HGV Max .... but it seems a bit too "apples and oranges" to me. My theory is it will be developed to eventually replace RCI across all of DRI/HGVC.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

ROFL... How HGV executives conduct branding meetings: (replace "SPAM" with "HGV" and "CLUB" or "Club" or...)


----------



## dioxide45

NiteMaire said:


> Well, I see @HuskerATL posted as I was typing this and confirmed HGV Max exchanges will be through DRI which mean DeX will be/is the system. Now we just need to see how they integrate HGVC resorts into it. Although, they were already available within it (through RCI). I just completed a stay at The Grand Islander by HGVC. I exchanged into using (Traditional) DeX, and received an RCI confirmation (though I'm not an RCI members). I don't think these cross system exchanges will go through RCI, but we'll see.


Based on the info you previously provided me, doesn't DeX for point owners use a more structured point schedule based on unit size and Tier? Where "the club" (won't capitalize anything since who knows what they are talking about) is pure point based where one HGVC point=One DRI point? For that reason, wouldn't it make more sense to put this through "the club" for a pure point based exchange system?


----------



## NiteMaire

HuskerATL said:


> It could be that they use that exchange and add HGV properties to it.


Agree, otherwise they'd have to operate 2 different exchanges for one program. That's neither efficient nor effective.  And, as they stated, HGV Max members/owners have a separate portal (not portals).


escanoe said:


> Dex is both an internal exchange (spanning DRI from within) as well as a tunnel to RCI on the backend for external exchanges. Maybe they adapt parts of it to serve HGV Max .... but it seems a bit too "apples and oranges" to me. My theory is it will be developed to eventually replace RCI across all of DRI/HGVC.


I don't think it's too much of a difference technically.  The key for me is that DeX is setup to take inventory from multiple Collections and even inventory from outside .  Collections aren't too dissimilar from Clubs.


dioxide45 said:


> Based on the info you previously provided me, doesn't DeX for point owners use a more structured point schedule based on unit size and Tier? Where "the club" (won't capitalize anything since who knows what they are talking about) is pure point based where one HGVC point=One DRI point? For that reason, wouldn't it make more sense to put this through "the club" for a pure point based exchange system?


Yes, but the core of DeX (for points owners) is exchanging points for inventory that is not in your Collection.  This fits well with exchanging points for inventory not in your club. I think you'll need to exchange x points for whatever you're exchanging into; DeX can already do this.  Again, I defer to points owners like @youppi and @artringwald and others who could provide additional details on THE Club.  In the end, you may be correct.  Maybe they setup a new "Collection" that is all DRI and HGVC inventory within a rolling 6 month time frame, but I think DeX is positioned to handle the exchanges. I don't know enough about THE Club internals to make the same statement.  Hopefully others can clarify.

ETA: 


CalGalTraveler said:


> IMHO...I wouldn't read too much into the word "exchange." My interpretation is like going into two reservations systems with the same number of points. Once a choice is made it decrements your points ("exchange") so you cannot use those points for additional reservations (in HGV or DRI).


That's how I read it as well.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

IMHO...I wouldn't read too much into the word "exchange." My interpretation is like going into two reservations systems with the same number of points. Once a choice is made it decrements your points ("exchange") so you cannot use those points for additional reservations (in HGV or DRI).

@NiteMaire may be right. Dex may be the underlying technology that makes this work and is why they can roll Max out relatively quickly after the acquisition. 

What we also need to confirm is whether the points exchange in MAX are 1:1 for DRI or HGVC inventory as it is today in legacy. I would like to see a points schedule for MAX. PM me if you want an explanation.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@NiteMaire Do you know if Embarc is currently available for exchange in DEX? If so this may be the mechanism to integrate Embarc into the MAX system and why it won't go into Legacy. HGV may already have the bridge to Embarc inventory via DeX.  

One more question. Does DeX handle short stays? If not they have to add that functionality.


----------



## NiteMaire

CalGalTraveler said:


> One more question. Does DeX handle short stays? If not they have to add that functionality.


Ohh, good point.  DeX is week-based for deeded owners, and I'm nearly 100% sure the same for points owners.  THE Club is capable of short stays so @dioxide45 may be on to something there.
ETA: I guess we'll have a better idea when we find out if the reservations within 6 months will be only week exchanges or include short stays.  Since they said exchange, I took it as 1 week, but I could be wrong.


CalGalTraveler said:


> Do you know if Embarc is currently available for exchange in DEX? If so this may be the mechanism to integrate Embarc into the MAX system and why it won't go into Legacy. HGV may already have the bridge to Embarc inventory via DeX.


Yes, but only studios at the moment.


CalGalTraveler said:


> What we still need to confirm is whether the current points exchange in MAX are 1:1 for DRI or HGVC inventory as it is today. PM me if you want an explanation.


It has to be right?  That's why HGV did the points adjustment for HGVC.


----------



## escanoe

I appreciate all the discussion. What is amazing to me is how much we do not know about any of this.

I can’t imagine people shelling out real money for HGV Max when it is all theoretical and details in the public domain are not that helpful in understanding what it is.

But then, I guess the developer timeshare model has defied logic for sometime.

I feel like I have speculated and puzzled over this enough for a while. I look forward to seeing a program manual available to explain it. Once we have that + reports of real world experience from the HGV Max Beta (or should that be Beta Max) testers, I may start to see if any adjustments in my portfolio would be desirable.


----------



## NiteMaire

escanoe said:


> I feel like I have speculated and puzzled over this enough for a while. I look forward to seeing a program manual available to explain it.


But speculating is the fun part!


----------



## dayooper

NiteMaire said:


> But speculating is the fun part!



My favorite.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Perhaps I missed the memo:  I saw a link on another site to the "Max Club  Windows" which blends Max into every resort booking schedule.

Now we can understand how Max reservation windows will integrate by resort - mostly 6 mos. It appears that MAX DRI owners will have same club access to bHC in NYC as HGVC Club so more DRI Max competition when club window opens at those properties e.g. 59 days at W57 and 89 days at other NYC. Home week and Home resort windows remain the same for NYC owners.

Weren't GI and Houkulani  previously 6 months club window? Now 9 mo for HGVC Legacy with 6 months for DRI Max.


----------



## GT75

CalGalTraveler said:


> Weren't GI and Houkulani previously 6 months club window?  Now 9 mo for HGVC Legacy with 6 months for DRI Max.


Probably a mistake.


----------



## dayooper

GT75 said:


> Probably a mistake.



Chicago has changed in the Club Guide as well.


----------



## terces

I have been concerned with Max Elite with their 10 month booking window in effect front running our typical 9 month booking window.

But here is another thought.  Numerous HGVC owners will be interested in booking the former Diamond resorts, so rather than competing at the 9 month window for HGV properties, they could hold off to the 6 month window to go after bookings at the Max properties.  Speculation, but could this actually reduce the pressure on booking at the 9 month window and perhaps offset some of the damage done by permitting the aforementioned 10 month Max Elite front run?


----------



## dayooper

terces said:


> I have been concerned with Max Elite with their 10 month booking window in effect front running our typical 9 month booking window.
> 
> But here is another thought.  Numerous HGVC owners will be interested in booking the former Diamond resorts, so rather than competing at the 9 month window for HGV properties, they could hold off to the 6 month window to go after bookings at the Max properties.  Speculation, but could this actually reduce the pressure on booking at the 9 month window and perhaps offset some of the damage done by permitting the aforementioned 10 month Max Elite front run?



Max owners don’t have a 10 month booking window, they have a limited number or searches at 10 months depending their status.


----------



## HuskerATL

dayooper said:


> Max owners don’t have a 10 month booking window, they have a limited number or searches at 10 months depending their status.


But it books automatically when there is a match up to the 10 month window.


----------



## GT75

HuskerATL said:


> But it books automatically when there is a match up to the 10 month window.


Information so far doesn’t state that.   It only says that it will search.    When it will book is another matter which to me isn’t clear.   I am sure the salespeople will spin it like you stated.


----------



## NiteMaire

HuskerATL said:


> But it books automatically when there is a match up to the 10 month window.





GT75 said:


> Information so far doesn’t state that. It only says that it will search. When it will book is another matter which to me isn’t clear.


I thought it was you can request at the 10-month point, but it books at 9 months.  In essence, you're at the front of the queue when 9 months arrives.  I can't remember if it was from documentation or someone speculating opining on TUG.


----------



## HuskerATL

GT75 said:


> Information so far doesn’t state that.   It only says that it will search.    When it will book is another matter which to me isn’t clear.   I am sure the salespeople will spin it like you stated.


It does, look on the pictures that were shared about HGVMax, but it does say Future State. So the higher the Elite Status, the more searches you get and the higher the priority for filling requests.




It is from this picture:


----------



## brp

NiteMaire said:


> I thought it was you can request at the 10-month point, but it books at 9 months.  In essence, you're at the front of the queue when 9 months arrives.  I can't remember if it was from documentation or someone speculating opining on TUG.



Even without a "booking advantage" _per se_, it means that folks less obsessed than we can "set it and forget it" for these searches. We watch like hawks for T-276 +/- 1 second. They don't need to do this.

Cheers.


----------



## HuskerATL

It is interesting though the other similar picture that shows similar info doesn't say "Future State" on the top but does have the footnote.


----------



## Great3

HuskerATL said:


> You are correct. It is for a deed not into a trust. I don't think the trust/point system is rolled out yet.



Perhaps there is possibility of both the deeded and trust option.  Basically, HGVC stop selling into Diamond Trust system and instead only sell HGVC Max Trust at $0.22 / pt MF dues. Or if you don't want trust points (HGVC Max points), you can get a deeded week, but buy-in price is probably expensive for deeded weeks compare to buy in for Trust points.  Not saying this is true, but that's what I am guessing, only way to make sense (to my mind) of all the different rumors they are being posted by people getting info. from their sales rep.  So, maybe HGVC can sell you both type of ownership product depending on what you want (but Trust HGVC points aren't roll out yet?).

Great3


----------



## GT75

HuskerATL said:


> It does, look on the pictures that were shared about HGVMax, but it does say Future State. So the higher the Elite Status, the more searches you get and the higher the priority for filling requests.


I don't jump to that conclusion.  

The statement says: "Eligible Members can set up an automated reservation search *when there is no current reservation availability*. ...   any eligible number of nights, any accommodation size or type, and for up to 10 months prior to arrival"

So,  will this system show availability if you don't own there at 10-month mark?    It shouldn't because you are trying to book during the Home Week booking period.   In addition, you are the one who asked the salesperson the direct question concerning booking.   They didn't answer.   So, I don't understand how this statement will be implemented, but I don't jump to the conclusion that this will book at 10-month mark.


----------



## HuskerATL

GT75 said:


> I don't jump to that conclusion.
> 
> The statement says: "Eligible Members can set up an automated reservation search *when there is no current reservation availability*. ...   any eligible number of nights, any accommodation size or type, and for up to 10 months prior to arrival"
> 
> So,  will this system show availability if you don't own there at 10-month mark?    It shouldn't because you are trying to book during the Home Week booking period.   In addition, you are the one who asked the salesperson the direct question concerning booking.   They didn't answer.   So, I don't understand how this statement will be implemented, but I don't jump to the conclusion that this will book at 10-month mark.


Yes, that is an odd line but I read that as if there is availability, it it will book right then but if there isn't then a search request will be created.  I could be totally wrong but there is definitely the intent to provide Elite Max a pre-9 month booking period.


----------



## GT75

With what I am seeing here with this rollout, I don't foresee CI/Embarc agreeing to be part of it.


----------



## dioxide45

I was watching this YouTube video titled *Could HGV be about to unload up to 40 Diamond resorts?* and it seems to suggest that, at least long term I supposed, Hilton Grand Vacations won't be able to manage properties that aren't branded as Hilton;





At the 0:54 mark it indicates the following;
_Hilton's Licencing agreement states - HGV can only apply the Hilton name to resorts approved as acceptable to themselves. HGV cannot without permission operate resorts under a different name/label to circumvent the above. HGV cannot hold inventory where services are provided by a Hilton rival._

It goes on to talk about which resorts Hilton may need to disaffiliate, but I think it also gets some facts wrong and seems to mention a lot of DRI affiliates, not actual Diamond operated properties. Any thoughts on this? Is there a chance that Hilton tries to unload a bunch of Diamond properties in the future? If so, what happens to inventory in the collections for those resorts? Or will they try to strongarm the boards to bring them all up to Hilton standards at the cost of the owner base?


----------



## Mongoose

dioxide45 said:


> I was watching this YouTube video titled *Could HGV be about to unload up to 40 Diamond resorts?* and it seems to suggest that, at least long term I supposed, Hilton Grand Vacations won't be able to manage properties that aren't branded as Hilton;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the 0:54 mark it indicates the following;
> _Hilton's Licencing agreement states - HGV can only apply the Hilton name to resorts approved as acceptable to themselves. HGV cannot without permission operate resorts under a different name/label to circumvent the above. HGV cannot hold inventory where services are provided by a Hilton rival._
> 
> It goes on to talk about which resorts Hilton may need to disaffiliate, but I think it also gets some facts wrong and seems to mention a lot of DRI affiliates, not actual Diamond operated properties. Any thoughts on this? Is there a chance that Hilton tries to unload a bunch of Diamond properties in the future? If so, what happens to inventory in the collections for those resorts? Or will they try to strongarm the boards to bring them all up to Hilton standards at the cost of the owner base?


And that was mainly Europe.  I think the problem would be much larger in the US.


----------



## GT75

Isn’t that old news previously reported?.  I think the issue is DRI-European collection.    I am away from home so I will investigate later if someone else doesn’t report back.


----------



## escanoe

HuskerATL said:


> Yes, that is an odd line but I read that as if there is availability, it it will book right then but if there isn't then a search request will be created.  I could be totally wrong but there is definitely the intent to provide Elite Max a pre-9 month booking period.



My reading has been that it allows the requests to be placed at 10 months, but the inventory will not be available until 9 months out. But suffice it to say, the language lacks specificity.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I read somewhere that it will work like an OGS in RCI. Owners put in their request for the resort date and unit types up to 10 months prior. When the unit becomes available at 9 months. The highest Elite tier gets first reservation that is reserved and held up to 24 hours where they opt-in, if not it is released back into the pool, then second tier elites get theirs (which may be simultaneous to first tier if not the same units and dates) then 3rd tier elites get theirs. We'll have to see what's official and how this actually works after rollout.


----------



## HuskerATL

escanoe said:


> My reading has been that it allows the requests to be placed at 10 months, but the inventory will not be available until 9 months out. But suffice it to say, the language lacks specificity.



For what it is worth, that is exactly the question that I had for the sales rep and here was his response after I had pulled out, "your Loyalty search would have given you a 10 month advantage to book"


----------



## escanoe

HuskerATL said:


> For what it is worth, that is exactly the question that I had for the sales rep and here was his response after I had pulled out, "your Loyalty search would have given you a 10 month advantage to book"



They are asking for real money with vague promises.

If you can set a search at 10 (which may result in priority booking at 9 months), are they not giving you a 10-month advantage?

I am not saying I know what it is .... I am saying none of us know what it is ..... in my view it is best to interpret salesforce promises (if even true) to mean the least of what could be interpreted from the vagueness versus the most. If they truly are allowing these bookings (actual bookings) more than 9 months out ..... they are taking something away from owners that they said they would not.


----------



## HuskerATL

Who all is going to an owner update soon?  We will be in Orlando in July.  It would be good to pool a list of questions from across this group and pose it to them to see the responses.  I understand that you can only take their responses with a grain of salt but I still like to make them answer the questions and then compare to what others have been told....and take pictures of any sales documents.


----------



## Great3

escanoe said:


> They are asking for real money with vague promises.
> 
> If you can set a search at 10 (which may result in priority booking at 9 months), are they not giving you a 10-month advantage?
> 
> I am not saying I know what it is .... I am saying none of us know what it is ..... in my view it is best to interpret salesforce promises (if even true) to mean the least of what could be interpreted from the vagueness versus the most. If they truly are allowing these bookings (actual bookings) more than 9 months out ..... they are taking something away from owners that they said they would not.



Agreed, they are violating Home Resort Week Priority at the 10 months mark, and I sure they will get sued for it if it happens.  They only way they can do 10-month booking is if they have a trust system with different inventory, that owners already deposited into for HGV Max points.  If it's crossover booking, 10-months booking shouldn't be allowed, no matter what kind of Elite you are, you don't trump the Home Resort Week owners.  At least that's how I see it.  So, we will see how this plays out.

Great3


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@Great3 My interpretation is that you can place the search starting at 10 months but no availability until 9 mos 12 midnight ET like an OGS in RCI.  So not a violation.

All, let's not forget that there are a limited number of searches per Max Elite level: 1 at the lowest Elite Tier to 5 Premier to 7 Centum.

The odds are extremely low your 9 month res will get taken:

We know the number of current HGV Elite's is small (does anyone have a %? I will bet < 3% of owners and most at lowest tier.)
The number of Max Elites will be even smaller (how many will pay $10k+ to buy in? I am hearing on private Elite boards, that Elites are outraged that they were not grandfathered into Max after all they have invested in the system at retail._)_
Max Elites have a limited number of searches by tier: 1 search, max 7 for Centum
The odds of Max Elites using their limited loyalty requests
For your exact unit (n out of n units need to be reserved via loyalty request e.g. 10 out of 10 1 bdrm unit odds)
On the same dates (1 out of 52 weeks odds)

I am not a statistician but would love a stats geek to calculate the odds.

Although I cannot calculate the exact numbers, this tells me the odds are very low your desired week will be taken at 9 months.

What is unknown is how many elites exist on the DRI side and how many will find MAX attractive. Perhaps @youppi or other DRI owners can enlighten us.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

Mongoose said:


> And that was mainly Europe.  I think the problem would be much larger in the US.


I
How many of the Diamond resorts in the US are linked with Hilton rival?   Obviously this clause would have been discussed directly with Hilton prior to the merger, and I am sure this is one factor in the desire to rebrand as many as possible.  Much harder to accomplish at a timeshare attached with the different hotel brand.


----------



## dioxide45

1Kflyerguy said:


> How many of the Diamond resorts in the US are linked with Hilton rival?   Obviously this clause would have been discussed directly with Hilton prior to the merger, and I am sure this is one factor in the desire to rebrand as many as possible.  Much harder to accomplish at a timeshare attached with the different hotel brand.


According to the video though, a Hilton rival didn't necessarily have to be another hotel brand.


----------



## HuskerATL

Great3 said:


> Agreed, they are violating Home Resort Week Priority at the 10 months mark, and I sure they will get sued for it if it happens.  They only way they can do 10-month booking is if they have a trust system with different inventory, that owners already deposited into for HGV Max points.  If it's crossover booking, 10-months booking shouldn't be allowed, no matter what kind of Elite you are, you don't trump the Home Resort Week owners.  At least that's how I see it.  So, we will see how this plays out.
> 
> Great3


Are they?  As far as I know, Home Week is 365 days but do they guarantee Home Week reservations from 365 to 276?  To be  honest, I have never used Home Week so I am not sure about this.


----------



## HuskerATL

CalGalTraveler said:


> @Great3 My interpretation is that you can place the search starting at 10 months but no availability until 9 mos 12 midnight ET like an OGS in RCI.  So not a violation.
> 
> All, let's not forget that there are a limited number of searches per Elite level: 1 at the lowest Elite Tier to 5 Premier to 7 Centum.
> 
> The odds are extremely low your 9 month res will get taken:
> 
> We know the number of current HGV Elite's is small (does anyone have a %? I will bet < 3% of owners and most at lowest tier.)
> Most Elites are at the lowest tier
> The number of Max Elites will be even smaller (how many will pay $10k+ to buy in? I am hearing on private Elite boards, that Elites are outraged that they were not grandfathered into Max after all they have invested in the system at retail. _Max announcement has created mistrust by formerly loyal Elites who are saying, "No more $. Will remain Legacy")_
> Max Elites have a limited number of searches by tier: 1 search, max 7 for Centum
> The odds of Max Elites using their limited loyalty requests
> For your exact unit (n out of n units need to be reserved via loyalty request e.g. 10 out of 10 1 bdrms units odds)
> On the same dates (1 out of 52 weeks odds)
> 
> I am not a statistician but would love a stats geek to calculate the odds.
> 
> Although I cannot calculate the exact numbers, this tells me the odds are very low your desired week will be taken at 9 months.
> 
> What is unknown is how many elites exist on the DRI side and how many will find MAX attractive. Perhaps @youppi or other DRI owners can enlighten us.


And to add that this isn't rolled out and is stated as Future State so who knows what will happen.


----------



## HuskerATL

HuskerATL said:


> Who all is going to an owner update soon?  We will be in Orlando in July.  It would be good to pool a list of questions from across this group and pose it to them to see the responses.  I understand that you can only take their responses with a grain of salt but I still like to make them answer the questions and then compare to what others have been told....and take pictures of any sales documents.


I say this about Orlando but my wife may divorce me if I make her attend another owner update.


----------



## dioxide45

We have a presentation in Orlando in May. We have to attend as part of a three night preview package. Will be interesting to see how they sell this to a non Hilton owner.


----------



## Talent312

Great3 said:
"[T]hey are violating Home Resort Week Priority at the 10 months mark, and I sure they will get sued for it.."


HuskerATL said:


> Are they?  AFAIK, Home Week is 365 days but do they guarantee Home Week reservations from 365 to 276?




Anyone can sue over anything, but they won't have a leg-to-stand-on.
No booking term is guaranteed. HGVC can rewire the club as they please.
Even to the point of terminating the club. Its set out in the Rules.


----------



## dayooper

Great3 said:


> Agreed, they are violating Home Resort Week Priority at the 10 months mark, and I sure they will get sued for it if it happens.  They only way they can do 10-month booking is if they have a trust system with different inventory, that owners already deposited into for HGV Max points.  If it's crossover booking, 10-months booking shouldn't be allowed, no matter what kind of Elite you are, you don't trump the Home Resort Week owners.  At least that's how I see it.  So, we will see how this plays out.
> 
> Great3



This is exactly why they are doing a search at 10 months and it books at 9 months if it's open. That way, they don't disrupt the deeded home week period. To get owners and potential owners to purchase into Max, they had to give an advantage over non Max members in the club season (and to discourage resale purchases).


----------



## Nowaker

HuskerATL said:


> Who all is going to an owner update soon? We will be in Orlando in July.


Sunrise Lodge (Utah) in June - IF we are invited.


----------



## HuskerATL

dioxide45 said:


> We have a presentation in Orlando in May. We have to attend as part of a three night preview package. Will be interesting to see how they sell this to a non Hilton owner.



It looks like you are the soonest.  If you are open to folks sending you questions to pose to them, how would you like to do it?   Nowaker goes in June so he could pose them there as well or follow up from yours.


----------



## Great3

HuskerATL said:


> Are they?  As far as I know, Home Week is 365 days but do they guarantee Home Week reservations from 365 to 276?  To be  honest, I have never used Home Week so I am not sure about this.



Good point, and good question.  I am probably premature with my thoughts, as I don't have anything to back it up, just my strong feelings which isn't good enough to be uphold as any sort of fact .  But no matter what, it's how I feel.  Going back to re-read what I wrote, I can see it coming off as some strong claims I was making.  So feel free to pick apart, LOL!!!

We will see what the future holds and adjust as necessary.

Great3


----------



## Great3

Talent312 said:


> Great3 said:
> "[T]hey are violating Home Resort Week Priority at the 10 months mark, and I sure they will get sued for it.."
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone can sue over anything, but they won't have a leg-to-stand-on.
> No booking term is guaranteed. HGVC can rewire the club as they please.
> Even to the point of terminating the club. Its set out in the Rules.



Very true, if home resort week is only in the Club Rules book, than it can be changed at anytime.  If it's written into a contract, that's different.

Great3


----------



## tk25

I’m all resale owner buying HGVC deeds in 2016 and 2017.

is open season going to be eliminated for resale owners like myself in the “legacy” part of HGVC.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

dioxide45 said:


> According to the video though, a Hilton rival didn't necessarily have to be another hotel brand.



Yes, that true.  But i think competing hotel operations would be the most problematic.  We don't know HGV negotiated changes to their agreement with Hilton Hotels regarding some of the other scenarios.  I do recall when the deal was announced, HGV said they spent a lot of time working with Hilton Hotels on their marketing agreement.. 

Contracts are typically not public, so my guess is that other channel was basing their information from the filings when HGV was spun-off from Hilton, and things may be different now.  Of course they might still be the same, but its possible they modified the agreement to account for the Diamond merger.  

I am sure Hilton would not want HGV to operate a timeshare co-located with Marriott, IHG, etc.  But they might be less concerned with other partners..


----------



## escanoe

The odds are 100% that Hilton corporate was a party involved in the plans and negotiations related to HGV purchasing DRI (if they were not negotiatng with DRI, they were negotiating with HGV and struck a deal). It may not ever become public, but I am sure there is a specific agreement between Hilton Worldwide and HGV on how the merger would be handled. 

Hilton protected HGV from being acquired by DRI or another company earlier in the process. 




1Kflyerguy said:


> Yes, that true.  But i think competing hotel operations would be the most problematic.  We don't know HGV negotiated changes to their agreement with Hilton Hotels regarding some of the other scenarios.  I do recall when the deal was announced, HGV said they spent a lot of time working with Hilton Hotels on their marketing agreement..
> 
> Contracts are typically not public, so my guess is that other channel was basing their information from the filings when HGV was spun-off from Hilton, and things may be different now.  Of course they might still be the same, but its possible they modified the agreement to account for the Diamond merger.
> 
> I am sure Hilton would not want HGV to operate a timeshare co-located with Marriott, IHG, etc.  But they might be less concerned with other partners..


----------



## Cyberc

dayooper said:


> Max owners don’t have a 10 month booking window, they have a limited number or searches at 10 months depending their status.


My worry is that it’s for ALL hgvc inventory they can have the search running and not just Max inventory. 
If it’s just Max inventory I’m not that worried.


----------



## dayooper

Cyberc said:


> My worry is that it’s for ALL hgvc inventory they can have the search running and not just Max inventory.
> If it’s just Max inventory I’m not that worried.



It’s going to be all, but Max members will be limited to certain amount of searches based on their tier status. It’s not a free for all. I’m not that worried about it. I may never be able to book Maui, but I’m not that worried about it. I believe Tier 2 (the most common level) will have 1 search reservation and the rest will be at 6 months.  You also have to remember that DRI resorts line Kauai, Maui, Tahoe, Sedona and Cabo Azul in Cabo San Lucas will be big draws.

What will be will be and there’s no stopping it. All of the confusion and anxiety is all done on purpose to get us all hot and bothered so we will be more apt to buy from them.


----------



## Cyberc

CalGalTraveler said:


> What is unknown is how many elites exist on the DRI side and how many will find MAX attractive. .


Since current hgvc elite members aren’t grandfathered wouldn’t it be fair to assume that DRI elite aren’t either? Assuming that’s correct and assuming HGVC will halt DRI sales and only continue with HGV Max sales then there will be no DRI elite.

Then DRI direct purchasers might also only be able to buy their way in to Max for $7,000.


----------



## NiteMaire

dayooper said:


> It’s going to be all, but Max members will be limited to certain amount of searches based on their tier status. It’s not a free for all. I’m not that worried about it. I may never be able to book Maui, but I’m not that worried about it. I believe Tier 2 (the most common level) will have 1 search reservation and the rest will be at 6 months. You also have to remember that DRI resorts line Kauai, Maui, Tahoe, Sedona and Cabo Azul in Cabo San Lucas will be big draws.
> 
> What will be will be and there’s no stopping it. All of the confusion and anxiety is all done on purpose to get us all hot and bothered so we will be more apt to buy from them.



I thought it was for inventory in HGVC, unsold inventory in HGVC and HVC, and inventory from owners who join Max. Then again, I haven't heard from a DRI owner who went to an update at a DRI property. I went to one recently, but it was at an HGVC resort, and they simply pushed purchasing at HGVC.
FWIW, there's some (limited, but some) DRI inventory at the 6-month point on Maui
Are you certain the 10-month search applies to HVC? I may have missed it since some wording is vague.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Cyberc said:


> Since current hgvc elite members aren’t grandfathered wouldn’t it be fair to assume that DRI elite aren’t either? Assuming that’s correct and assuming HGVC will halt DRI sales and only continue with HGV Max sales then there will be no DRI elite.
> 
> Then DRI direct purchasers might also only be able to buy their way in to Max for $7,000.



I would expect it should be more since they will have access to higher quality resorts and ability to convert to Honors so the value proposition is much stronger. Would be helpful to get reports from DRI members and what they are pitched on the DRI side.

From HGV side, so far I am not seeing sufficient value in Max to make the leap yet. May be more cost effective to rent DRI, trade in RCI/II, apply honor points to rent on Hilton.com, or spend the money on higher quality resorts in those locations. Waiting and watching...


----------



## dayooper

NiteMaire said:


> I thought it was for inventory in HGVC, unsold inventory in HGVC and HVC, and inventory from owners who join Max. Then again, I haven't heard from a DRI owner who went to an update at a DRI property. I went to one recently, but it was at an HGVC resort, and they simply pushed purchasing at HGVC.
> FWIW, there's some (limited, but some) DRI inventory at the 6-month point on Maui
> Are you certain the 10-month search applies to HVC? I may have missed it since some wording is vague.



Since they are putting resorts in Max, I would think they would be included in the search. Kauai and DRI Maui haven’t been reported as being rebranded Max yet, but Sedona, Tahoe and Los Cabos have been reported being rebranded.


----------



## NiteMaire

dayooper said:


> Since they are putting resorts in Max, I would think they would be included in the search. Kauai and DRI Maui haven’t been reported as being rebranded Max yet, but Sedona, Tahoe and Los Cabos have been reported being rebranded.


Yes, but I think the inventory will be from unsold inventory primarily, or at least the inventory available further out.  They still have obligations to deeded week and Collection owners.  I realize at some point prior to check-in, it may also be in Max.  My gut is that deeded units will not be, but I could be wrong. I haven't seen anything about DRI deed owners with regard to Max. Deeded owners don't have points and Max is based on points.
Sedona Summit will likely be April 27 based on Hilton's website which allows booking at "HVC Sedona Summit" starting on that date; it's still "Coming Soon".  I'll update my ownership that day


----------



## Nowaker

Talent312 said:


> Anyone can sue over anything, but they won't have a leg-to-stand-on.
> No booking term is guaranteed. HGVC can rewire the club as they please.
> Even to the point of terminating the club. Its set out in the Rules.



First, the rules have to be followed, whatever they are. If a current rule is not followed, and you have damages, you can sue. (*)

Second, here's an excerpt from one of my deeds:

> Grantee has acquired a Type lI Vacation Ownership Interest.

> If Grantee has acquired a Type I, Type lll or Type IV Vacations Ownership Interest, Grantee
> shall be required to make a reservation for a Suite as described below in accordance with the
> provisions of the Declaration.
> Grantee is entitled to utilize a 2 bedroom Suite, with every Year occupancy rights in accordance
> with the provisions of the Declaration.

> Grantee, by acceptance hereof and by agreement with Grantor, hereby expressiy assumes and
> agrees to be bound by and comply with all of the covenants, terms, and provisions set forth in the
> aforesaid Declaration and the rules and regulations made thereunder, including, but not limited to,
> the obligation to make payment of all assessments as provided for therein. Grantee further
> waives the common law right as a co-tenant to nonexclusive occupancy of the Project, and
> acknowledges that ownership of the Vacation Ownership Interest conveyed hereby authorizes
> and entitles Grantee to occupy a Suite in the Project only in accordance with the Declaration,
> including but not limited to the reservation requirements established by Hilton Grand Vacations
> Club ("HGVClub") and other occupancy limitations of the Declaration and any rules and
> regulations promulgated thereunder.

> Grantee, by accepting this Deed, acknowledges that Grantee is required to be a member of
> HGVClub. Each membership shall be appurtenant to Grantee's Vacation Ownership Interest in
> the Project and shall be transferred automatically by conveyance of that Vacation Ownership
> Interest. Ownership of a Vacation Ownership Interest within the Project cannot be separated
> from membership in the HGVClub appurtenant thereto, except as otherwise provided by the
> Declaration, and any devise, encumbrance, conveyance or other disposition, respectively, of a
> Vacation Ownership Interest shall include the Grantee's membership in the HGVClub and rights
> appurtenant thereto, whether or not specifically named in the instrument of transfer.

They cannot "rewire the club as they please". First and foremost, everything that the deed grants to me cannot be infringed upon. If I'm promised a 2 BR, and original rules - at the time of the first conveyance of the deed to its first non-HGV buyer - granted me with exclusive access to 2 BR between 9 and 12 months mark, this right is engraved in stone, and subsequent HGVClub rules can not provide such benefits to non-owners.

Therefore: no, 10-months booking isn't happening. There's no legal way for them to do it, without separating old and new inventories. 12-9 months out home week is here to stay.


(*) - Actually, you have to go to arbitration, as per the rules - but this would only apply to HGV Club rule violation (e.g. unfulfilled points reservation, worse unit provided, etc). Violation of any right explicitly granted to you in the deed could go to court directly.



Talent312 said:


> Even to the point of terminating the club. Its set out in the Rules.



Well...

> Grantee, by accepting this Deed, acknowledges that *Grantee is required to be a member of
> HGVClub*. Each membership shall be appurtenant to Grantee's Vacation Ownership Interest in
> the Project and shall be transferred automatically by conveyance of that Vacation Ownership
> Interest. *Ownership of a Vacation Ownership Interest within the Project cannot be separated
> from membership in the HGVClub* appurtenant thereto, except as otherwise provided by the
> Declaration, and any devise, encumbrance, conveyance or other disposition, respectively, of a
> Vacation Ownership Interest *shall include the Grantee's membership in the HGVClub and rights
> appurtenant thereto*, whether or not specifically named in the instrument of transfer.

Just because? No.

HGVC RESERVES THE* RIGHT TO SUSPEND OR TERMINATE PARTICIPATION *OF AN AFFILIATED
RESORT IN THE CLUB *IF THE AFFILIATED RESORT FAILS TO MAINTAIN AND MANAGE THE
ACCOMMODATIONS AND FACILITIES OF THE AFFILIATED RESORT AT THE LEVEL OF QUALITY AND
CUSTOMER SERVICE ESTABLISHED BY HGVC FOR ALL AFFILIATED RESORTS FROM TIME TO TIME*. AN
AFFILIATED RESORT’S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CLUB MAY ALSO BE TERIMINATED OR SUSPENDED IF
THE ASSOCIATION *FILES BANKRUPTCY OR BECOMES INSOLVENT*. HGVC SHALL NOT HAVE THE RIGHT
TO TERMINATE THE AFFILIATION OF A CLUB RESORT DURING THE FIRST FIVE YEAR’S OF OPERATION
OR SO LONG AS THE DEVELOPER OF A CLUB RESORT CONTROLS THE OWNERS ASSOCIATION OF THE
PROJECT, AS SET OUT IN THE GOVERNING DOCUMENTS FOR THE CLUB RESORT.


Termination can only happen for a reason. The deed is not just restrictions that apply to your unit. The deed enumerates rights that you are granted as well. You are granted a right to be a member of HGVClub - as long as the HOA complies with their quality requirements. (Heck, owners could sue their own HOA if it would fail to meet HGVC's standards!). They cannot even pick and choose which rules to enforce for which resort - the same rules have to be applied equally to all resorts.


----------



## dayooper

NiteMaire said:


> Yes, but I think the inventory will be from unsold inventory primarily, or at least the inventory available further out.  They still have obligations to deeded week and Collection owners.  I realize at some point prior to check-in, it may also be in Max.  My gut is that deeded units will not be, but I could be wrong. I haven't seen anything about DRI deed owners with regard to Max. Deeded owners don't have points and Max is based on points.
> Sedona Summit will likely be April 27 based on Hilton's website which allows booking at "HVC Sedona Summit" starting on that date; it's still "Coming Soon".  I'll update my ownership that day



I absolutely agree with the notion that deeded weeks will not be in Max unless HGV finds a way to entice owners to join. I’m not the owners of those weeks will bite, but HGV will surely try. Trust owned weeks? That might be a different story. They could also buy back weeks through ROFR and place those in Max as well.

As far as honoring the owners in a collection, don’t they have a priority at 13 months? Much like club reservations in HGVC, isn’t booking across collections a perk retail membership, not a right?  That’s how I always thought of it as, but I’m not that knowledge on DRI policies as I am HGVC.


----------



## Mongoose

escanoe said:


> They are asking for real money with vague promises.


worse than that it has zero resale value.


----------



## Mongoose

tk25 said:


> I’m all resale owner buying HGVC deeds in 2016 and 2017.
> 
> is open season going to be eliminated for resale owners like myself in the “legacy” part of HGVC.


I don’t think so. I think availability will go down do to DRI.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I agree with @Mongoose, however if DRI adoption of Max is slow then the effect may take decade or so. Similar to HGV, DRI cannot access HGV unless they pay for an upgrade. It will depend on how much is asked and whether they see value.

There will also be HGV MAX owners booking DRI which should alleviate some pressure.


----------



## GT75

Here is what I am wondering, if a current HGVC owner joins HGV Max, what are they giving up?     For example, are they giving up the Home Week booking window as @Nowaker stated above.


----------



## Mongoose

I don’t have enough points with HGVC to justify HGVMax even if I was eligible. I’m split with HGVC, Hyatt, HICV and WM.


----------



## escanoe

GT75 said:


> Here is what I am wondering, if a current HGVC owner joins HGV Max, what are they giving up?     For example, are they giving up the Home Week booking window as @Nowaker stated above.



They are giving up the cold hard cash to purchase a developer deed to get in OR the ridiculous amount of money required to buy in based on owning a developer deed. If over time, the only way to get into HGV Max is to buy into a trust …. now that will open it up to more trade offs.


----------



## tombanjo

A bit off the current topic, but it looks like all retail sales will include max, I wonder if there will be anyone who does not want max will then look to "traditional" or legacy deeds as a better option. I realize a lot of people who buy retail buy the sizzle, and max is designed to be extra sizzley, but might be a bit obtuse to someone who wants a simple this is where I want to go every year kinda deal


----------



## brp

GT75 said:


> Here is what I am wondering, if a current HGVC owner joins HGV Max, what are they giving up?     For example, are they giving up the Home Week booking window as @Nowaker stated above.



I can't imagine that someone ponying up for Max would get *less* than a cheap resale (or low-point-count retail) person. If we get Home Week, I have to believe that they'd get that in addition to other stuff.

Cheers.


----------



## dioxide45

brp said:


> I can't imagine that someone ponying up for Max would get *less* than a cheap resale (or low-point-count retail) person. If we get Home Week, I have to believe that they'd get that in addition to other stuff.
> 
> Cheers.


Perhaps, but many people buying developer are financing the purchase for a low monthly payment. They may not be able to pony up for an all cash high end resale week.


----------



## Nowaker

dioxide45 said:


> Perhaps, but many people buying developer are financing the purchase for a *low* monthly payment. They may not be able to pony up for an all cash high end resale week.



Low? 

If people don't have cash or CC with enough credit limit, they could get a cash loan at a shitty APR, and use that to buy resale from Ebay, and they'd still end up with a way way way lower payment than purchasing retail and financing through them.


----------



## NiteMaire

tombanjo said:


> A bit off the current topic, but it looks like all retail sales will include max, I wonder if there will be anyone who does not want max will then look to "traditional" or legacy deeds as a better option. I realize a lot of people who buy retail buy the sizzle, and max is designed to be extra sizzley, but might be a bit obtuse to someone who wants a simple this is where I want to go every year kinda deal


Yea, the release said any purchases after April 4th are automatically in HGV Max. I presume it's because all unsold inventory is now Max. It may be also be available outside of Max for reservation, but it's still technically Max inventory. I'm open to being technically (or otherwise) wrong.


----------



## dioxide45

I think Max is just a term meaning "Max Eligible". Eligible to make reservations in "the club" at 6 months. I don't know how HGV becomes eligible for booking inside Max though at 6 months. Does a HGV owner first have to book DRI inventory then their week goes into Max? I don't think HGV just dumps all unreserved HGV inventory into "the club" at 6 months?


----------



## NiteMaire

dioxide45 said:


> I don't know how HGV becomes eligible for booking inside Max though at 6 months. Does a HGV owner first have to book DRI inventory then their week goes into Max? I don't think HGV just dumps all unreserved HGV inventory into "the club" at 6 months?


I presumed HGVC owners had normal access to HGVC resorts.  Then, if in Max, at 6 months they gained access to inventory that was DRI inventory.  I envisioned inventory being available in Max within 6 months while also being available in THE Club.  That may be hard to do.  Plus, what do you do THE Club owners can no longer reserve their resorts if they taken by Max members?  Is it a matter of "well, you had a priority window you didn't use so too bad, so sad"?  I fully expect unsold inventory in Max, but I'm still trying to understand what happens to HGVC and THE Club inventory at 6 months.


----------



## dioxide45

NiteMaire said:


> I presumed HGVC owners had normal access to HGVC resorts.  Then, if in Max, at 6 months they gained access to inventory that was DRI inventory.  I envisioned inventory being available in Max within 6 months while also being available in THE Club.  That may be hard to do.  Plus, what do you do THE Club owners can no longer reserve their resorts if they taken by Max members?  Is it a matter of "well, you had a priority window you didn't use so too bad, so sad"?  I fully expect unsold inventory in Max, but I'm still trying to understand what happens to HGVC and THE Club inventory at 6 months.


I suspect that Max is just a new 6 month booking window that members have the privilege to use at 6 months (privilege=pony up $$$). Nothing more really. The exchange company (the club) is the vehicle. HGV Max now become members of "the club" and can book at six months only. If something they want is available at six months, they make the booking then their underlying ownership goes into "the club" for others to book. Perhaps HGV seeds the club with some unsold HGV stuff for Max members to book at six months, but it seems everything, that is DRI, left over at six months in "the club" is up for grabs. DRI members had a three month window to book collection then another four months to book "the club". If they lose out at six months, oh well...


----------



## NiteMaire

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect that Max is just a new 6 month booking window that members have the privilege to use at 6 months (privilege=pony up $$$). Nothing more really. The exchange company (the club) is the vehicle. HGV Max now become members of "the club" and can book at six months only. If something they want is available at six months, they make the booking then their underlying ownership goes into "the club" for others to book. Perhaps HGV seeds the club with some unsold HGV stuff for Max members to book at six months, but it seems everything, that is DRI, left over at six months in "the club" is up for grabs. DRI members had a three month window to book collection then another four months to book "the club". If they lose out at six months, oh well...


Yes, agree. You said it better. And the same applies for DRI owners being able to get what's left over in HGVC inventory at 6 months.


----------



## dioxide45

NiteMaire said:


> Yes, agree. You said it better. And the same applies for DRI owners being able to get what's left over in HGVC inventory at 6 months.


The only thing I don't know though, is will DRI get the same access to HGV leftovers? If a HGV Max member doesn't reserve by 6 months, I guess their inventory could go into "the club". But what does HGV actually deposit? HGV isn't fixed weeks. Even in side of 6 months could a Max member still book a week through HGVC? I guess is is no different than resale DRI collection owners that can't access "the club". They still need to be able to book something inside of 10 months if they didn't do so from 13-10.


----------



## NiteMaire

dioxide45 said:


> HGV isn't fixed weeks.


If I'm reading this correctly, neither is DRI's THE Club.


dioxide45 said:


> The only thing I don't know though, is will DRI get the same access to HGV leftovers?


I just don't see how they could treat THE Club owners who join Max differently...unless they pull the "you're in HVC, not HGVC" card.  Besides, what good would it do for them to join Max if HGV didn't do that? It would be like "Pay all this money to join a club to access inventory you can already access".


----------



## NiteMaire

The *10 points* below are from a post in "The Best Hilton Grand Vacation TRAVEL Group" on FB.  Someone talked to a salesperson from HGVC - I think on the phone, but not sure - and relayed the following from the *salesperson*; other comments are mine. Some of these have been discussed ad nauseum, but thought I'd include them:

*1. Even though published in the guide, HGV is not selling the $7K membership without purchase*
Then why was it published? Maybe for DRI owners who want to join? I find this one difficult to believe
*2. The only way to join is to buy a new deed or upgrade, and that Max is "a deeded thing"*
Well, to bring in DRI resorts, it'll need to use points...this is, afterall why HGV stated they reset the point values in HGVC. I presume it was meant to be deeded with associated points in line with what HGVC is.  At my recent presentation post April 4th, I was offered an Elara deed with associated points.
*3. 6 month cross inventory is for HGV to book DRI/HVC and vice versa *
This is in line with some thoughts on TUG...similar to how HGVC operates, but additional access to cross inventory at 6 months. This also indicates DRI owners can join, but if you have to purchase a deed (#2) how does that work since DRI THE Club is points based? I can only think this is being presented from an HGVC - not HGV holistic - point of view
*4. Minimum investment is $25K*
This is counter to what HGVC sales tried to sell to get me to join -- they offered the Elara unit at $9.7K and we would have been in Max
*5. No idea why sales is adding up to $1K per deed*
No idea either since I don't recall it being published anywhere
*6. Max doesn't shorten your booking window for home resorts
7. The loyalty search is no guarantee of reservation
8. A lower level elite in Max could get a booking in front of the HGV Legacy elite premier owner
9. Hard to get properties will still be hard to get
10. HGV Legacy program remains the same*
Just as I've been assured that DRI Legacy remains the same.

It seems salespeople are confusing/contradicting other salespeople.  I can only imagine what is happening with potential owners.


----------



## HuskerATL

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect that Max is just a new 6 month booking window that members have the privilege to use at 6 months (privilege=pony up $$$). Nothing more really. The exchange company (the club) is the vehicle. HGV Max now become members of "the club" and can book at six months only. If something they want is available at six months, they make the booking then their underlying ownership goes into "the club" for others to book. Perhaps HGV seeds the club with some unsold HGV stuff for Max members to book at six months, but it seems everything, that is DRI, left over at six months in "the club" is up for grabs. DRI members had a three month window to book collection then another four months to book "the club". If they lose out at six months, oh well...



The only caveat to this is the fee wording from my contract that stated under the Max fees: $281 Club Fee and the $199 Inventory Activation Fee (1 per contract).  I am not sure what the $199 is for unless it is to add the property to Max.


----------



## Talent312

I hope the booking engine for non-Max members (the great unwashed) will filter out the resorts available to the other "side"  of things, and not show both DRI (HVC) and HGVC resorts.

Otherwise, each side will have to wade thru a lengthy list other Max resorts with the notation: "This resort is not available for reservation."
.
.


----------



## dioxide45

NiteMaire said:


> If I'm reading this correctly, neither is DRI's THE Club.


If HGV is creating a new Exchange Company ("Club"), then they should be giving new buyers into HGV Max an exchange company disclosure like the one attached for Marriott Exchange Company for their DC program. Even if they aren't creating a new club, then they should still be providing said disclosure to new buyers. This should provide more specifics as to the actual club and if there are existing members or no members to start out. Do we know if any new buyers have been provided such a disclosure?


----------



## brp

NiteMaire said:


> I presumed HGVC owners had normal access to HGVC resorts.  Then, if in Max, at 6 months they gained access to inventory that was DRI inventory.  I envisioned inventory being available in Max within 6 months while also being available in THE Club.  That may be hard to do.  Plus, what do you do THE Club owners can no longer reserve their resorts if they taken by Max members?  Is it a matter of "well, you had a priority window you didn't use so too bad, so sad"?  I fully expect unsold inventory in Max, but I'm still trying to understand what happens to HGVC and THE Club inventory at 6 months.



Yes, this is what I was alluding to above. HGVC (or HGC, whateer we are these days ) would still get Home Week and Club booking as normal. Then the hordes at the gate get access at 6 months.

Still unclear, as we all are, about *exactly* what it means to us Morlocks to give the Eloi have _searches_ at 10 months in terms of our 9 month booking. Likely little, as conjectured. But still unclear.

Cheers.


----------



## Mongoose

Sales is probably not offering the $7k option because the want to make more commission on a new sale.


----------



## HuskerATL

brp said:


> Yes, this is what I was alluding to above. HGVC (or HGC, whateer we are these days ) would still get Home Week and Club booking as normal. Then the hordes at the gate get access at 6 months.
> 
> Still unclear, as we all are, about *exactly* what it means to us Morlocks to give the Eloi have _searches_ at 10 months in terms of our 9 month booking. Likely little, as conjectured. But still unclear.
> 
> Cheers.


This was just posted in the HGVC Elite FB group that talks about some of this:

Quick on MAX.   I talked live to a salesperson today. She said she is not sure why the $7000 price to get in is published in the club guide becssue they are not selling that. She said the only way to get into MAX Is to buy a new deed or to upgrade an existing one.  And minimum investment is $25,000.  This is a minimum new investment.   She didn’t give a minimum cost if you go upgrade route.  She also said she has no idea where the paying $450 or $1000 per deed to get in came from.  She said this was not accurate.
Also that MAX is a deeded thing. It’s not just points like I thought and some others had posted.   Buying a deed now will get you into MAX.   It’s your ‘ticket’ to get in. Also if you get into max it doesn’t shorten your 9 month booking window for the HGV deeds you currently own.    The 6 mo th window is just for ‘cross pollination’.  Meaning HGV that wants to book Diamond or vice versa.
Last.  The booking window.  She said it was not intended to take benefits away from legacy owners.   It was to help owners from having to go in constantly to check for availability.  I don’t think I agree with this.   As I asked her in theory then. If a 17000 point owner who gets 1 request and the property is available during that 9-10 month window. Then they are automatically booked and get it and how is that not detrimental to us. And She said the search is no guarantee.   (In theory it’s like when we put a search in for RCI).   So I said in theory then if I an elite premier doesn’t get into max then the lowest level of elite in max could theoretically get a property before HGV legacy.  And she agreed yes, This could happen.  She said that the hard to get properties will still be hard to get whether it is in a 10 month search or a 9 month booking window.   My jury is still out on this.  I think this hurts all legacy owners who choose not to go to max.
Just thought I’d share what I heard.    Not trying to stir the pot.


----------



## dioxide45

So until HGV comes up with a way to allow people into HGV Max with a $7000 initiation fee, it amounts to an illegal bait and switch?


----------



## HuskerATL

dioxide45 said:


> So until HGV comes up with a way to allow people into HGV Max with a $7000 initiation fee, it amounts to an illegal bait and switch?


I don't think that they can charge you to get in until it is actually a thing. Right now it is vaporware. But they can add it as a benefit to a new purchases or upgrade so that is why they aren't "selling" it yet.


----------



## brp

HuskerATL said:


> Last.  The booking window.  She said it was not intended to take benefits away from legacy owners.   It was to help owners from having to go in constantly to check for availability.  I don’t think I agree with this.



I think that this is reasonable and something I suggested above. For most people, i.e. "normal" people that are not us, checking is not something that they do hawkishly. Having this set for them (similar to waitlists in DVC that auto-fill) is an advantage for them in convenience. For all we know, it may not jump the line at 9 months minus a second and steal from us. The diligent among us may still get is, and the search will fill "around" then is perhaps more geared toward things that are not one-of-a-kind and hard to get, but more of a convenience.

Again, a speculation, but one that makes sense to me in terms of real peoples' ways of handling stuff like this.

Cheers.


----------



## tk25

I think pretty much all HGVC inventory and DRI Hilton approved inventory with very few exceptions will be available at “6 months” for MAX.  Parsing about deeds or points will be irrelevant.
So book ASAP - nothing changes in regards to this.
OPEN SEASON and or DRI equivalent (after some total system standardization) will most likely have more inventory options in MAX.  HGVC would be smart to enable open season to everyone to increase income.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@brp has a point. Although there is the possibility of 10 mo., I could envision DRI and HGV owners reserving a  week during 9 to 6 mo window or home week, then search for new property eg Valdoro ski week, or Lagoon summer releases, or DRI availability at 6 mos. If their OGS finds the desired property, then they will release their 6-9 mo legacy reservation.


----------



## dayooper

HuskerATL said:


> This was just posted in the HGVC Elite FB group that talks about some of this:
> 
> Quick on MAX.   I talked live to a salesperson today. She said she is not sure why the $7000 price to get in is published in the club guide becssue they are not selling that. She said the only way to get into MAX Is to buy a new deed or to upgrade an existing one.  And minimum investment is $25,000.  This is a minimum new investment.   She didn’t give a minimum cost if you go upgrade route.  She also said she has no idea where the paying $450 or $1000 per deed to get in came from.  She said this was not accurate.
> Also that MAX is a deeded thing. It’s not just points like I thought and some others had posted.   Buying a deed now will get you into MAX.   It’s your ‘ticket’ to get in. Also if you get into max it doesn’t shorten your 9 month booking window for the HGV deeds you currently own.    The 6 mo th window is just for ‘cross pollination’.  Meaning HGV that wants to book Diamond or vice versa.
> Last.  The booking window.  She said it was not intended to take benefits away from legacy owners.   It was to help owners from having to go in constantly to check for availability.  I don’t think I agree with this.   As I asked her in theory then. If a 17000 point owner who gets 1 request and the property is available during that 9-10 month window. Then they are automatically booked and get it and how is that not detrimental to us. And She said the search is no guarantee.   (In theory it’s like when we put a search in for RCI).   So I said in theory then if I an elite premier doesn’t get into max then the lowest level of elite in max could theoretically get a property before HGV legacy.  And she agreed yes, This could happen.  She said that the hard to get properties will still be hard to get whether it is in a 10 month search or a 9 month booking window.   My jury is still out on this.  I think this hurts all legacy owners who choose not to go to max.
> Just thought I’d share what I heard.    Not trying to stir the pot.



Was this the same salesperson as you originally purchased from because there's a fair amount of contradiction with what they said as what you are reporting above (not saying you are contradicting yourself, just what was and is being explained ). Wasn't it, at some point going to be all points? It seems there are multiple salespeople saying multiple different things to get people to purchase. (I always thought the $0.22 per point MF wasn't correct, just said to encourage someone to buy). I guess this is just like normal and timeshare salespeople gotta do what timeshare salespeople gotta do.


----------



## HuskerATL

dayooper said:


> Was this the same salesperson as you originally purchased from because there's a fair amount of contradiction with what they said as what you are reporting above (not saying you are contradicting yourself, just what was and is being explained ). Wasn't it, at some point going to be all points? It seems there are multiple salespeople saying multiple different things to get people to purchase. (I always thought the $0.22 per point MF wasn't correct, just said to encourage someone to buy). I guess this is just like normal and timeshare salespeople gotta do what timeshare salespeople gotta do.


No, this is what someone posted on the FB group. I don't know who they talked to but it was a lady and talked to a guy at Kings Land


----------



## NiteMaire

tk25 said:


> Parsing about deeds or points will be irrelevant.
> So book ASAP - nothing changes in regards to this.



Agree with booking ASAP.
Disagree with deeds being irrelevant, at least for DRI properties. Deeded units aren't in the THE Club so they won't be in Max. There are some exceptions since points owners can "affiliate" their deeded properties in THE Club so there may be very limited deeded properties associated. HGV had something about this in one of their documents aimed at DRI owners, but I can't remember what it stated.


----------



## NiteMaire

HuskerATL said:


> This was just posted in the HGVC Elite FB group that talks about some of this:


That's the same person/post I summarized above in post #309 (the info was in multiple groups).  I merged related items and listed additional info that I pulled from the comment section since she stated additional info from the salesperson.


dayooper said:


> Was this the same salesperson as you originally purchased from because there's a fair amount of contradiction with what they said as what you are reporting above (not saying you are contradicting yourself, just what was and is being explained ).


That's why I stated salespeople are contradicting/confusing other salespeople.  Clearly more training is needed, or salespeople need to pay better attention during training.  Then again, maybe they know the truth, but decide to say something else.  Either way, they're saying things that contradict with other salespeople are saying.


----------



## brp

NiteMaire said:


> Then again, maybe they know the truth, but decide to say something else.




Wait! What are you saying? A timeshare salesperson would *never* say anything that wasn't absolutely true. Just doesn't happen....!

Cheers.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward

An interesting stew. . .

It looks like the Affiliates will come out the best in this. HVC does not have ROFR on affiliate properties. Only the properties themselves do. So those with fixed weeks, will be able to keep their fixed weeks without worrying about HGV "front-running" their weeks. Bay Club has a similar protection, they open their booking window significantly before the 12 month window of HGVC.

So as long as you are <not> a member of HGVC, HGVC and its add-ons can't diddly you out of your week choice. (So if you bought where you want to go, year after year, you will still be able to, with minimal worries. . . )


----------



## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch

We were initially excited about the possibilities of HGV Max.  Specifically the Sedona location, which is only 4 hours away.  Having just purchased resale in December, we were quoted $16,000 for an upgrade, one week after officially closing on the initial purchase.  Inconceivable, and the 6 month booking window makes it all the less useful.  The Diamond owners are going get more aggressive with bookings at the 7 month mark, then you're going to complete with the HGV Max people on anything remaining.

We've decided to go with Club Wyndham Sedona, for a 13 month booking window.  We'll get far more out of that than HGV Max, being able to pick exactly what we want.

I don't think HGV Max is a bad deal for those who want to buy more retail anyways, or who have excessive ownership and are flexible with off season deals.  But if you have your heart set one or two Diamond locations, perhaps consider alternatives.


----------



## Mongoose

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> We were initially excited about the possibilities of HGV Max.  Specifically the Sedona location, which is only 4 hours away.  Having just purchased resale in December, we were quoted $16,000 for an upgrade, one week after officially closing on the initial purchase.  Inconceivable, and the 6 month booking window makes it all the less useful.  The Diamond owners are going get more aggressive with bookings at the 7 month mark, then you're going to complete with the HGV Max people on anything remaining.
> 
> We've decided to go with Club Wyndham Sedona, for a 13 month booking window.  We'll get far more out of that than HGV Max, being able to pick exactly what we want.
> 
> I don't think HGV Max is a bad deal for those who want to buy more retail anyways, or who have excessive ownership and are flexible with off season deals.  But if you have your heart set one or two Diamond locations, perhaps consider alternatives.


If you haven’t already look at Hyatt and Arroyo Roble.  Both are nicer and have better locations IMO.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

We have a discounted stay/presentation for Hyatt Pinion Point for next year. We look forward to checking out Sedona and hiking. May rent a few days at HGV Sedona Summit to check it out too.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> We have a discounted stay/presentation for Hyatt Pinion Point for next year. We look forward to checking out Sedona and hiking. May rent a few days at HGV Sedona Summit to check it out too.


Actually, won't that be a *HVC* Sedona Summit?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@dioxide45 Gah!! LoL Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Bacon and Spam, Spam and Bacon, Spam, Spam and Bacon with Spam. Pick your HGV, HVC, HGVC. Max HGV, Max HVC By Hilton Club, The CLUB, Club, Club


----------



## terces

HuskerATL said:


> This was just posted in the HGVC Elite FB group that talks about some of this:
> 
> Quick on MAX.   I talked live to a salesperson today. She said she is not sure why the $7000 price to get in is published in the club guide becssue they are not selling that. She said the only way to get into MAX Is to buy a new deed or to upgrade an existing one.  And minimum investment is $25,000.  This is a minimum new investment.   She didn’t give a minimum cost if you go upgrade route.  She also said she has no idea where the paying $450 or $1000 per deed to get in came from.  She said this was not accurate.
> Also that MAX is a deeded thing. It’s not just points like I thought and some others had posted.   Buying a deed now will get you into MAX.   It’s your ‘ticket’ to get in. Also if you get into max it doesn’t shorten your 9 month booking window for the HGV deeds you currently own.    The 6 mo th window is just for ‘cross pollination’.  Meaning HGV that wants to book Diamond or vice versa.
> Last.  The booking window.  She said it was not intended to take benefits away from legacy owners.   It was to help owners from having to go in constantly to check for availability.  I don’t think I agree with this.   As I asked her in theory then. If a 17000 point owner who gets 1 request and the property is available during that 9-10 month window. Then they are automatically booked and get it and how is that not detrimental to us. And She said the search is no guarantee.   (In theory it’s like when we put a search in for RCI).   So I said in theory then if I an elite premier doesn’t get into max then the lowest level of elite in max could theoretically get a property before HGV legacy.  And she agreed yes, This could happen.  She said that the hard to get properties will still be hard to get whether it is in a 10 month search or a 9 month booking window.   My jury is still out on this.  I think this hurts all legacy owners who choose not to go to max.
> Just thought I’d share what I heard.    Not trying to stir the pot.


So if we extrapolate this statement a bit further  "I think this hurts all legacy owners who choose not to go to max.", we can take this to mean that all resale buyers will be hurt, and why?  If I buy a used condo, or any other form of real estate my Bundle Of Rights stays intact by law.


----------



## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch

Mongoose said:


> If you haven’t already look at Hyatt and Arroyo Roble.  Both are nicer and have better locations IMO.



I didn't look into Arroyo Roble, but it looks like a very relaxing resort.  I don't see any resale on Ebay or Tug, but an old promo video on their website quotes resale $7,000 starting.

We did consider Hyatt.  It does look nicer, and location wise, it is right across the street from our wine club.  We decided against it because of the Sunday weekend pricing, and the limited number of resorts.  We would likely stay 4 nights per trip, and feel compelled to fly somewhere if points were remaining.  Hilton already covers that type of vacation.  There is a film fest in February, and a wine fest in September, so the 5 weeknights at Wyndham made more sense.


----------



## SmithOp

terces said:


> So if we extrapolate this statement a bit further "I think this hurts all legacy owners who choose not to go to max.", we can take this to mean that all resale buyers will be hurt, and why? If I buy a used condo, or any other form of real estate my Bundle Of Rights stays intact by law.


The only people hurting are sales when folks realize what a bag of hot air this Max is right now.

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45

SmithOp said:


> The only people hurting are sales when folks realize what a bag of hot air this Max is right now.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


Given that timeshare salespeople can spin full developer pricing of timeshare as a great value proves that they can sell just about anything. I am sure their sales will be doing fine.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I am now rethinking attending a presentation until the ink is dry on the Max program. What's the point?

I heard on a Diamond board that they are requiring Diamond Owners to pay $40-$50k in retail to participate in MAX. There is a greater value prop on the DRI side - access to Hilton Honors, access to HGVC quality resorts so a higher price makes sense. However, if this level of investment is true, this will severely limit the number of DRI owners opting for MAX. And just because a DRI owner opts into MAX that doesn't make them elite with 10-month reservation windows.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> What's the point?


The entertainment value!


----------



## Mongoose

CalGalTraveler said:


> I am now rethinking attending a presentation until the ink is dry on the Max program. What's the point?
> 
> I heard on a Diamond board that they are requiring Diamond Owners to pay $40-$50k in retail to participate in MAX. There is a greater value prop on the DRI side - access to Hilton Honors, access to HGVC quality resorts so a higher price makes sense. However, if this level of investment is true, this will severely limit the number of DRI owners opting for MAX and using the theoretical 10-month window. And just because a DRI owner opts into MAX that doesn't make them elite with 10-month reservation windows.


I might try calling someone from corporate to get at the real options.


----------



## dioxide45

Mongoose said:


> I might try calling someone from corporate to get at the real options.


Or fill out the inquiry form online


----------



## Mongoose

dioxide45 said:


> Or fill out the inquiry form online


lol, we all know what you get with that.  I imagine there are some senior leaders in HGVC that are proud of HGVMax and would be annoyed to learn sales are misrepresenting it or at least poorly selling.  Might find out the truth about the $7k.  Local sales is using the buzz to simply push new sales.


----------



## escanoe

dioxide45 said:


> The entertainment value!



Or content generation for a timeshare YouTube channel

I would tune in to see @CalGalTraveler as a guest.

*******

I actually view HGV Max as pay dirt (pixie dust) for sales. It adds a fair amount of sizzle with perhaps a meager thread of stake …. I suspect once someone makes a purchase and then discovers TUG they will be harder to convince they should rescind.


----------



## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch

dioxide45 said:


> Given that timeshare salespeople can spin full developer pricing of timeshare as a great value proves that they can sell just about anything. I am sure their sales will be doing fine.



I haven't been following one of the Facebook group closely in a couple of weeks, but I did notice more people opening up to Max.  Maybe it was just a niche group of people on a particular thread.  The repeat reasoning: not wanting to miss out on their current ownership.

What if Hilton buys Bluegreen or Westgate, do we get "HGV Ultra Max"?


----------



## brp

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> The repeat reasoning: not wanting to miss out on their current ownership.



HGVC are selling FOMO. And it's working.

Cheers.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

escanoe said:


> Or content generation for a timeshare YouTube channel
> 
> I would tune in to see @CalGalTraveler as a guest.



ROFL...aka "The tire-kicker from hell"  Politely asks too many hard questions which wastes reps time, and doesn't buy. (But gladly accepts the gifts for attending!)


----------



## PigsDad

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> What if Hilton buys Bluegreen or Westgate, will they buy into "HGV Ultra Max" too?


Exactly!  HGV hung their existing owners out to dry on this deal, I have no doubt they will do so again in the future.  Extremely disgusted with them right now!

Kurt


----------



## HuskerATL

Here is a link to the Elite Max benefits on their website versus the pictures taken at the sales meeting.









						Earn More Rewards with Hilton Grand Vacations Membership Tiers
					

Take advantage of all the benefits of timeshare, and check out the available upgrades at Hilton Grand Vacations.




					www.hiltongrandvacations.com


----------



## Arimaas

dioxide45 said:


> Where have I seen this X with an arrow like that before? It looks very familiar, but I can't figure out why;
> View attachment 51569


FedEx?


----------



## HuskerATL

Someone put this on the FB group and I am curious of your thoughts.  I have not seen this written down anywhere and may just be a sales tactic.

"Resale purchases made after 4/01/22 will not qualify for the last minute open season cash benefit in clubs."


----------



## CalGalTraveler

First: We need to see this in writing.  Sounds like a sales tactic.

Second: Even if true, OS is based on the owner not the unit and is for additional cash rentals. If you own resales (or retail) prior to 4/02/22 and buy another resale that shouldn't disqualify the owner because you either qualify or not.  It could affect new resale buyers without a purchase prior to 4/02.


----------



## tombanjo

HuskerATL said:


> Someone put this on the FB group and I am curious of your thoughts.  I have not seen this written down anywhere and may just be a sales tactic.
> 
> "Resale purchases made after 4/01/22 will not qualify for the last minute open season cash benefit in clubs."



And how exactly could that possibly work ? They would need to add some exceedingly complicated logic to the website to sort out what deeds are eligible. So you bought one Elara deed retail and one on eBay -  how do you block and allow at the same time this person ? Yes you can have nested permissions, but still, the back end would be a nightmare. 

I am not going to bother reading my deed to see if open season is allowed or not, but if it is, they would need to amend the deed and what right do they have to unilaterally do that based on the existing deed ? 

And in the end, exactly what benefit would there be to do this ? Open Season is another word for "can't get rid of" and to limit access is not really a great idea as if someone has a deed, they can borrow points in any case.


----------



## HuskerATL

tombanjo said:


> And how exactly could that possibly work ? They would need to add some exceedingly complicated logic to the website to sort out what deeds are eligible. So you bought one Elara deed retail and one on eBay -  how do you block and allow at the same time this person ? Yes you can have nested permissions, but still, the back end would be a nightmare.
> 
> I am not going to bother reading my deed to see if open season is allowed or not, but if it is, they would need to amend the deed and what right do they have to unilaterally do that based on the existing deed ?
> 
> And in the end, exactly what benefit would there be to do this ? Open Season is another word for "can't get rid of" and to limit access is not really a great idea as if someone has a deed, they can borrow points in any case.


This was my thought also.  I don't know how the system would parse it out but I guess it is possible from a system design perspective.  I highly doubt it though.


----------



## dayooper

HuskerATL said:


> Here is a link to the Elite Max benefits on their website versus the pictures taken at the sales meeting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Earn More Rewards with Hilton Grand Vacations Membership Tiers
> 
> 
> Take advantage of all the benefits of timeshare, and check out the available upgrades at Hilton Grand Vacations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hiltongrandvacations.com



Interesting, they have added the ability to purchase points directly from HGVC to extend or upgrade reservations. I bet this is why they removed the option of members selling points to other members.


----------



## GT75

dayooper said:


> Interesting, they have added the ability to purchase points directly from HGVC to extend or upgrade reservations. I bet this is why they removed the option of members selling points to other members.


Exactly but the cost to purchase is outrageous (IMO).      I also don't understand how this maintains inventory control.


----------



## GT75

HuskerATL said:


> Someone put this on the FB group and I am curious of your thoughts.  I have not seen this written down anywhere and may just be a sales tactic.
> 
> "Resale purchases made after 4/01/22 will not qualify for the last minute open season cash benefit in clubs."



Kind of hard to do that when there is no such language in the current updated rules.


----------



## escanoe

I am amazed at the extent to which a new program has been rolled out but there is no comprehensive guide to how it works anywhere. It is almost as if there is an effort to have the salesforce define it before there is any concrete way of understanding the real rules of the road.


----------



## SmithOp

I'm pretty sure your deed describes your home unit. Club and Open season are a club benefit, paid by your club dues,, and there is verbiage in club rules that it can change.

I doubt if they would do it, and I've never used open season so I'm not going to get upset about it.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## HuskerATL

escanoe said:


> I am amazed at the extent to which a new program has been rolled out but there is no comprehensive guide to how it works anywhere. It is almost as if there is an effort to have the salesforce define it before there is any concrete way of understanding the real rules of the road.


I have always thought that when universities design their campuses, they shouldn't put sidewalks in but let students walk it and then use the beaten paths to determine where side walks should be based on users (since often times students create their own paths anyway even when sidewalks are in) so maybe HGVC is doing something similar....throwing sh*t against the wall and let the users react and then create the guidelines based on user feedback....or it could just be a sh*t show.


----------



## dioxide45

escanoe said:


> I am amazed at the extent to which a new program has been rolled out but there is no comprehensive guide to how it works anywhere. It is almost as if there is an effort to have the salesforce define it before there is any concrete way of understanding the real rules of the road.


This is kind of how it goes for just about any timeshare system. We all know how the existing programs work because we use them every day, but finding some step by step tutorial about it that isn't behind authentication is rare. That is why we create different resources and stickies on TUG. The timeshare companies don't openly publish it and you probably won't ever see a comprehensive guide for HGV Max. Most knowledge comes from using it hands on, not from some screen. If most people really knew what was involved, they wouldn't buy.


----------



## brp

tombanjo said:


> And how exactly could that possibly work ? They would need to add some exceedingly complicated logic to the website to sort out what deeds are eligible. So you bought one Elara deed retail and one on eBay -  how do you block and allow at the same time this person ? Yes you can have nested permissions, but still, the back end would be a nightmare.



I think that *if* they did this it would be as @CalGalTraveler  suggests - any purchase prior to 4/1 would grandfather the owner for all contracts. Only people with nothing prior to 4/1 would be impacted. This would be much easier to code with a single "membership" date.

Cheers.


----------



## escanoe

Fair enough, @dioxide45. In my view the annual rule and policy book for HGVC is pretty comprehensive. They have not put the specific detailed policies like that out for Max.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I've always thought of HGV as being above the rest of the industry by being transparent on their rules. This is one reason I have always liked HGV. It is sad to see them lower themselves to these industry tactics with MAX. Perhaps Diamond management is having a negative effect internally.

I hope they publish a Max rules book soon.

The portal will tell the true story. I look forward to MAX owners sharing screen captures and what they have learned. Once we have that info I can make an educated decision on whether Max is right for us.


----------



## dioxide45

escanoe said:


> Fair enough, @dioxide45. In my view the annual rule and policy book for HGVC is pretty comprehensive. They have not put the specific detailed policies like that out for Max.


From what I understand, they have updated a lot of their materials to account for HGV Max. They outline the booking windows and such. It doesn't look to be a separate document but people have posted a lot of screenshots and even the club reference guide here on TUG that show the updates.


----------



## HuskerATL

I did see this on page 21 of the HGV Club Reference that was released April 4th:

Persons who acquire their ownership interest from the resale market may receive limited Club benefits, including, but not limited to, restrictions on the ability to convert ClubPoints into Hilton
Honors Points on an every-use-year basis and on the use of Open Season rental benefits. Interests acquired on the resale market may not qualify for additional benefits, services or recognition
programs or tiers.


----------



## Talent312

HuskerATL said:


> I did see this on page 21 of the HGV Club Reference that was released April 4th:
> Persons who acquire their ownership interest from the resale market may receive limited Club benefits...



Of course, this impacts members who wants to sell an unrestricted unit.
Will we have to disclose that those benefits aren't included in the deal?
.


----------



## brp

Talent312 said:


> Of course, this impacts members who wants to sell an unrestricted unit.
> Will we have to disclose that those benefits aren't included in the deal?
> .



If sold through a broker, that's their responsibility. If sold directly, I see no legal obligation but, perhaps, an ethical one.

Alternative view is that it's up to the buyer to know the detailed rules of what they're buying as long as the seller doesn't misrepresent anything.

When folks sell DVC, I'd be pretty certain that they don't list all the things that the buyer *won't* get, for example.

Cheers.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Not sure what this even means?!? note the word "may." They already can change the club rules at any time - even for retail buyers.  So should they be disclosing for all retail buyers that Club rules can change at any time and you may lose your ability to transfer into Honors at a given rate, the value of your trading... your trading window etc. if you buy from us today?

I have yet to see a disclosure other than the Club rules can change at their whim. Another reason to review your deeds and what you own.


----------



## brp

CalGalTraveler said:


> Not sure what this even means?!? note the word "may." They already can change the club rules at any time - even for retail buyers.  So should they be disclosing for all retail buyers that Club rules can change at any time and you may lose your ability to transfer into Honors at a given rate, the value of your trading... your trading window etc. if you buy from us today?
> 
> I have yet to see a disclosure other than the Club rules can change at their whim. Another reason to review your deeds and what you own.



I interpret the added, technically redundant per your argument, wording to mean that, for resales after 4/1, these changes are more likely to really materialize.. Thus, while they can already change things for every one, they're defining a separate class so that they can take it away from them and not others. Not suggesting that it will, or won't happen. But this, IMO, makes it somewhat more likely for this subclass.

Cheers.


----------



## dioxide45

brp said:


> If sold through a broker, that's their responsibility. If sold directly, I see no legal obligation but, perhaps, an ethical one.
> 
> Alternative view is that it's up to the buyer to know the detailed rules of what they're buying as long as the seller doesn't misrepresent anything.
> 
> When folks sell DVC, I'd be pretty certain that they don't list all the things that the buyer *won't* get, for example.
> 
> Cheers.


Often we will see listings that list a certain week and benefits. WIth Vistana resales, most resorts don't usually come with StarOptions, but some listings included them even if that benefit doesn't exist on resales. I would say it is up to the seller to correctly indicate what they are selling and that Max membership isn't included and for the buyer to do their due diligence to know exactly what it is they are buying. So far I haven't seen anyone on the Vistana side buy a voluntary resort that doesn't come with points on resale come to the forum and claim they bought something that was not correctly described. Resale buyers in general have a little more know how when it comes to understanding what they are buying and what to watch out for.


----------



## Nowaker

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> What if Hilton buys Bluegreen or Westgate, do we get "HGV Ultra Max"?



Above Max can only be Limit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_(mathematics)

Therefore, HGV Limit makes a lot of sense.


----------



## brp

Nowaker said:


> Above Max can only be Limit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_(mathematics)
> 
> Therefore, HGV Limit makes a lot of sense.



Well, except that *Limit* does not exceed Max. The upper limit for something is, in reality, the Max.  Given the time that this is taking, I'd say that we're in sme asymtotic relationship approaching the Limit. It may or may not be Max 

Cheers.


----------



## tombanjo

If I were Lewis Carrol, I would write a poem about this, 

When timeshare sales talk becomes acute, 
the hypotenuse might shout
That the hyperbole is approaching
a curve not like a hysteresis
but hysterical instead.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

HGV's next program name beyond Max?

Max Max (aka Max Squared) but if you spend this much money, it should be called _Mad Max_ (!)

Max Infinity

Max Grand Master of the Universe (had to get "Grand" in there or the branding mavens at intergalactic HQ would not approve)

WTF is a Centum?!? Sounds like a vitamin...

...slow day at the office - split screen on a zoom call!


----------



## brp

tombanjo said:


> If I were Lewis Carrol, I would write a poem about this,
> 
> When timeshare sales talk becomes acute,
> the hypotenuse might shout
> That the hyperbole is approaching
> a curve not like a hysteresis
> but hysterical instead.



I'll go with the words in Eugene Ionesco's "The Bald Soprano:"

"Such cascades of cacas, such cascades of cacas, such cascades of cacas,..."

Cheers.


----------



## Talent312

CalGalTraveler said:


> Max Infinity
> Max Grand Master of the Universe



"To Infinity and Beyond." -- Buzz Lightyear

"


----------



## CalGalTraveler

tombanjo said:


> If I were Lewis Carrol, I would write a poem about this,
> 
> When timeshare sales talk becomes acute,
> the hypotenuse might shout
> That the hyperbole is approaching
> a curve not like a hysteresis
> but hysterical instead.



Lewis Carrol is so appropriate.

Sales presentations: Down the rabbit hole we go!


----------



## linsj

Since I'm in Vegas for a work project and had time on Monday, I booked an owner's update to ask about Max. Started with a 10-min. group presentation that emphasized converting club points to Honors points and buying enough points to keep 8 million Honors points in your account for all the luxury trips we'll want to take. Then the salesman I was assigned to was laser focused on buying to convert to Honors. He's top elite and converts all his points every year, which is an expensive way to use them. No thanks. 

Despite telling me he spent two months in Orlando learning about the acquisition and new Max program, he couldn't answer my questions, nor did he want to. He said HGVC didn't buy all the DRI properties, only the top 150. (I don't know how many that leaves with DRI and doesn't even make sense.) He also said HGVC doesn't want everyone in the crossover program and is keeping the price high to keep the members low. Nothing about buying in for $7,000, only buying a minimum of 5,000 old points. (I still can't think in terms of the new points after increasing them 60%.) Price will go up in May on 1st or 15th--and will continue to increase. No answers, no pressure, no closer. In and out in half an hour.


----------



## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch

CalGalTraveler said:


> HGV's next program name beyond Max?
> 
> Max Max (aka Max Squared) but if you spend this much money, it should be called _Mad Max_ (!)



Two acquisitions from now, it will be called Triple Max, or Max Cubed.  You have to buy into each segment separately, to unleash the 7 month _Mad Max_ booking window.

Only Triple Max owners get access to the _Thunderdome_.


----------



## HuskerATL

linsj said:


> Since I'm in Vegas for a work project and had time on Monday, I booked an owner's update to ask about Max. Started with a 10-min. group presentation that emphasized converting club points to Honors points and buying enough points to keep 8 million Honors points in your account for all the luxury trips we'll want to take. Then the salesman I was assigned to was laser focused on buying to convert to Honors. He's top elite and converts all his points every year, which is an expensive way to use them. No thanks.
> 
> Despite telling me he spent two months in Orlando learning about the acquisition and new Max program, he couldn't answer my questions, nor did he want to. He said HGVC didn't buy all the DRI properties, only the top 150. (I don't know how many that leaves with DRI and doesn't even make sense.) He also said HGVC doesn't want everyone in the crossover program and is keeping the price high to keep the members low. Nothing about buying in for $7,000, only buying a minimum of 5,000 old points. (I still can't think in terms of the new points after increasing them 60%.) Price will go up in May on 1st or 15th--and will continue to increase. No answers, no pressure, no closer. In and out in half an hour.


Funny. The $7k is in the reference guide and, if you google Diamond Resort and go to their page, https://www.diamondresorts.com/ , it is branded Hilton Grand Vacations.  It don't think this is a subset of the properties.  It is now HGV.


----------



## Nowaker

brp said:


> Well, except that *Limit* does not exceed Max. The upper limit for something is, in reality, the Max.



Wrong. There's is no x for which f(x) would equal lim(f(x)). Therefore, max never reaches or exceeds the limit. It's trying very hard, but never can. lim(f(x)) > max(f(x).


----------



## escanoe

So, what is big and new with Max is that an owner's update only wastes 30 minutes of your time not learning anything? Don't guess it is all bad.



linsj said:


> Since I'm in Vegas for a work project and had time on Monday, I booked an owner's update to ask about Max. Started with a 10-min. group presentation that emphasized converting club points to Honors points and buying enough points to keep 8 million Honors points in your account for all the luxury trips we'll want to take. Then the salesman I was assigned to was laser focused on buying to convert to Honors. He's top elite and converts all his points every year, which is an expensive way to use them. No thanks.
> 
> Despite telling me he spent two months in Orlando learning about the acquisition and new Max program, he couldn't answer my questions, nor did he want to. He said HGVC didn't buy all the DRI properties, only the top 150. (I don't know how many that leaves with DRI and doesn't even make sense.) He also said HGVC doesn't want everyone in the crossover program and is keeping the price high to keep the members low. Nothing about buying in for $7,000, only buying a minimum of 5,000 old points. (I still can't think in terms of the new points after increasing them 60%.) Price will go up in May on 1st or 15th--and will continue to increase. No answers, no pressure, no closer. In and out in half an hour.


----------



## brp

Nowaker said:


> Wrong. There's is no x for which f(x) would equal lim(f(x)). Therefore, max never reaches or exceeds the limit. It's trying very hard, but never can. lim(f(x)) > max(f(x).



OK, you go with that. All definitions of "limit" and "max" are quite different. Things about upper bounds and such.  But you can go with what works for ya.

Cheers.


----------



## GT75

HuskerATL said:


> Funny. The $7k is in the reference guide and, if you google Diamond Resort and go to their page, https://www.diamondresorts.com/ , it is branded Hilton Grand Vacations. It don't think this is a subset of the properties. It is now HGV.


I know, I thought that the $7K (listed in the updated rules as HGV Max initiation fee) was one of the few items which was stated very clearly.   If this doesn't mean what it says then obviously that puts the whole HGV Max program as unclear.    HGV should first determine the rules before selling something on vague promises.


----------



## escanoe

This is Beta Max ..... it will do until the real Max is finalized and the rules are perfected.

Fake it until you make it. 



GT75 said:


> I know, I thought that the $7K (listed in the updated rules as HGV Max initiation fee) was one of the few items which was stated very clearly.   If this doesn't mean what it says then obviously that puts the whole HGV Max program as unclear.    HGV should first determine the rules before selling something on vague promises.


----------



## PigsDad

linsj said:


> Price will go up in May on 1st or 15th--and will continue to increase.


<sarcasm>
But... But... But... Over on FB groups back in March, several people were swearing up and down that prices were going up on April 1st, so they were taking their salesperson's advice and "upgrading" while the prices were still "low".  And now their going up _again_ on May 1st?  Wow.  Those early buyers are sooooo lucky!
</sarcasm>

  

Kurt


----------



## pedro47

These ts sale people lips are moving up and down so fast now and are they telling the truth.
The whole truth and nothing but the truth.


----------



## dougp26364

We hadn’t found the Hilton timeshare sales force very helpful in our last two updates, so we stopped going. DRI had become even worse. The ONLY reason we went to the last DRI update was for the cash. We were traveling with a couple who was financially strapped and with both of us getting $300, we were able to go out for what was some really nice dinners for them. The exaggerations from the DRI sales staff exceeded what we had suffered through at our last Hilton update. It doesn’t surprise me that the combined sales force might take the lower road rather than concentrate on honesty

The lies have become so rampant and the hysteria over those lies is so high I don’t even read much on these threads and I’ve begun to avoid reading the FB groups. I’ll read what Hilton provides, but I’ll wait until it’s officially official. The one thing I will say is I’m NOT spending $7,000 to join any new program and all the fear mongering in the world by the sales staff won’t get me to budge. I’m deeded at a resort we decided we would use (or sell) if the worst that could happen ever happened. In doing this they can threaten but we won’t care.

The one opportunity they had was a couple of years ago when we wanted to move our deed from LV Blv to Elara. That’s what we wanted. What they wanted was to sell us an expensive deed with fewer point at Kingsland. She missed all the buying signs I gave her and plowed right into something I told her we’d never, ever use. Now? Maybe I’d still upgrade our deed to Elara if I felt it was affordable, but it wouldn’t be to get into MAX. I don’t have the urge to attend a presentation to hear their pitch, and if the incentive is still as lousy as it’s always been ($150 or less), I’m not inclined to sit through another BS update that all but wastes precious vacation time and annoys my wife.


----------



## tk25

I just filled out the “inquiry” form on HGVC owner website.  In comment section I asked about $7000 fee for MAX conversion and if I would/could be MAX PREMIER because I have 44,800 points all resale purchased back in 2016 & 2017.  Also will ask about contract conversion fee of $199/contract.

Premier is the next tier, going up to 53,999 Points. In addition to all the previous tiers’ benefits, Premier Members have: 


Access reservations to luxury homes and villas in the top vacation destinations worldwide
$500 Open Season Credit
Three active Loyalty Search Requests
Four complimentary Guest certificates
Will let you know what happens and will try to get a contract with confirmatory “details” mailed to me.  I’m not buying a new contract - more points, or trade in contract. Just interested in the $7000 MAX conversion With Premier status.


----------



## HuskerATL

tk25 said:


> I just filled out the “inquiry” form on HGVC owner website.  In comment section I asked about $7000 fee for MAX conversion and if I would/could be MAX PREMIER because I have 44,800 points all resale purchased back in 2016 & 2017.  Also will ask about contract conversion fee of $199/contract.
> 
> Premier is the next tier, going up to 53,999 Points. In addition to all the previous tiers’ benefits, Premier Members have:
> 
> 
> Access reservations to luxury homes and villas in the top vacation destinations worldwide
> $500 Open Season Credit
> Three active Loyalty Search Requests
> Four complimentary Guest certificates
> Will let you know what happens and will try to get a contract with confirmatory “details” mailed to me.  I’m not buying a new contract - more points, or trade in contract. Just interested in the $7000 MAX conversion With Premier status.



I suspect that the $7k conversion will be only for people with retail or, at least, a retail property.  I also suspect that they would propose upgrading a resale to retail to get in.  Lastly, I suspect that resale won't count for Elite Max similar to the current Elite program.


----------



## brp

HuskerATL said:


> I suspect that the $7k conversion will be only for people with retail or, at least, a retail property.  I also suspect that they would propose upgrading a resale to retail to get in.  Lastly, I suspect that resale won't count for Elite Max similar to the current Elite program.



Maybe they're smarter than we think and they're positioning the $7K as intentionally nebulous so that the salesweasel can to the "well, it's not officially published, but I think I can get this for you, *today only*, if you'll just agree to..."

Or maybe they're just disorganized. Ockham says...

Cheers.


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## CalGalTraveler

dougp26364 said:


> We hadn’t found the Hilton timeshare sales force very helpful in our last two updates, so we stopped going. DRI had become even worse. The ONLY reason we went to the last DRI update was for the cash. We were traveling with a couple who was financially strapped and with both of us getting $300, we were able to go out for what was some really nice dinners for them. The exaggerations from the DRI sales staff exceeded what we had suffered through at our last Hilton update. It doesn’t surprise me that the combined sales force might take the lower road rather than concentrate on honesty
> 
> The lies have become so rampant and the hysteria over those lies is so high I don’t even read much on these threads and I’ve begun to avoid reading the FB groups. I’ll read what Hilton provides, but I’ll wait until it’s officially official. The one thing I will say is I’m NOT spending $7,000 to join any new program and all the fear mongering in the world by the sales staff won’t get me to budge. I’m deeded at a resort we decided we would use (or sell) if the worst that could happen ever happened. In doing this they can threaten but we won’t care.
> 
> The one opportunity they had was a couple of years ago when we wanted to move our deed from LV Blv to Elara. That’s what we wanted. What they wanted was to sell us an expensive deed with fewer point at Kingsland. She missed all the buying signs I gave her and plowed right into something I told her we’d never, ever use. Now? Maybe I’d still upgrade our deed to Elara if I felt it was affordable, but it wouldn’t be to get into MAX. I don’t have the urge to attend a presentation to hear their pitch, and if the incentive is still as lousy as it’s always been ($150 or less), I’m not inclined to sit through another BS update that all but wastes precious vacation time and annoys my wife.



MVC is no different with their Vistana DP "soft launch" baloney. We are avoiding pure points programs altogether because rules changes and benefits devaluations come even faster.


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## HuskerATL

I was just on a call with HGVC about other stuff and the lady mentioned that she was just in a training about Max and commented that the Max portal will be online in August.  I asked her other questions but she didn't provide any interesting info that we haven't already discussed. However though, when I asked about the $7k fee to join without buying or upgrading she commented that she was not aware of it.  I told her that it is in the guidebook and a sales rep mentioned it to me but she acted like she wasn't aware of it and commented about upgrading or buying to join.


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## Nomad420

dougp26364 said:


> We hadn’t found the Hilton timeshare sales force very helpful in our last two updates, so we stopped going. DRI had become even worse. The ONLY reason we went to the last DRI update was for the cash. We were traveling with a couple who was financially strapped and with both of us getting $300, we were able to go out for what was some really nice dinners for them. The exaggerations from the DRI sales staff exceeded what we had suffered through at our last Hilton update. It doesn’t surprise me that the combined sales force might take the lower road rather than concentrate on honesty
> 
> The lies have become so rampant and the hysteria over those lies is so high I don’t even read much on these threads and I’ve begun to avoid reading the FB groups. I’ll read what Hilton provides, but I’ll wait until it’s officially official. The one thing I will say is I’m NOT spending $7,000 to join any new program and all the fear mongering in the world by the sales staff won’t get me to budge. I’m deeded at a resort we decided we would use (or sell) if the worst that could happen ever happened. In doing this they can threaten but we won’t care.
> 
> The one opportunity they had was a couple of years ago when we wanted to move our deed from LV Blv to Elara. That’s what we wanted. What they wanted was to sell us an expensive deed with fewer point at Kingsland. She missed all the buying signs I gave her and plowed right into something I told her we’d never, ever use. Now? Maybe I’d still upgrade our deed to Elara if I felt it was affordable, but it wouldn’t be to get into MAX. I don’t have the urge to attend a presentation to hear their pitch, and if the incentive is still as lousy as it’s always been ($150 or less), I’m not inclined to sit through another BS update that all but wastes precious vacation time and annoys my wife.


Thanks, you took the words right out of my mouth on all points.  I have one property in the HGVC family and it is HCNY.  Almost never trade out.  Use it for NYC and basically that is it.  I own other time shares just not HGVC.  I won't touch MAX and one thing is for sure my wife will never spend another minute in a "update" again no matter what they offer.  The last couple have been, well.... painful to say the least.


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## dougp26364

CalGalTraveler said:


> MVC is no different with their Vistana DP "soft launch" baloney. We are avoiding pure points programs altogether because rules changes and benefits devaluations come even faster.



One rather big difference. MVC hasn’t put in writing any buy in requirement of $7,000. They also haven’t put in writing that current owners must buy something new to participate in the combined program.

What sales staff has done over the last few years is spread rumors such as, you’ll need to be at a certain ownership level, you’ll need to buy something now in order to be grandfathered in and that the elite level will change and you need to level up now to be grandfathered in at that level.

Hilton, has put that $7,000 or buy something new after this date in writing. As an existing owner for 20 years, this is a little insulting, but not unexpected. What I find particularly insulting is the price tag for what I feel are rather limited benefits. Marriott also had a buy in, but in the beginning it was extremely low and affordable for owners.

Unless you own fixed week/fixed unit deeds and always use those weeks, the rules have changed for everything thing since the beginning in one way or another. Both RCI and II have made major changes to their programs over the last 20 years. Avoiding points based programs will not protect from change or devaluation


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## CalGalTraveler

dougp26364 said:


> One rather big difference. MVC hasn’t put in writing any buy in requirement of $7,000. They also haven’t put in writing that current owners must buy something new to participate in the combined program.
> 
> What sales staff has done over the last few years is spread rumors such as, you’ll need to be at a certain ownership level, you’ll need to buy something now in order to be grandfathered in and that the elite level will change and you need to level up now to be grandfathered in at that level.
> 
> Hilton, has put that $7,000 or buy something new after this date in writing. As an existing owner for 20 years, this is a little insulting, but not unexpected. What I find particularly insulting is the price tag for what I feel are rather limited benefits. Marriott also had a buy in, but in the beginning it was extremely low and affordable for owners.
> 
> Unless you own fixed week/fixed unit deeds and always use those weeks, the rules have changed for everything thing since the beginning in one way or another. Both RCI and II have made major changes to their programs over the last 20 years. Avoiding points based programs will not protect from change or devaluation



I was referring to the fact that MVC hasn't put anything in writing in this "soft launch" and people must attend a sales meeting to get info. Reps are telling people all kinds of yarns, including elite MVC DP owners who also own Vistana, that they must buy more to participate. This is causing rumors and speculation to fly. No different. 

Why aren't you insulted by that?


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## dougp26364

CalGalTraveler said:


> I was referring to the fact that MVC hasn't put anything in writing and reps are telling people they must buy DP to participate.



You have a point. It’s that point that keeps me from making any financial decisions involving my timeshares. I want it in writing as the official rules. Until then anything can change.

So far both have put some things in writing. Hilton with their reference guide, Marriott with the points conversions they’re showing in their owner updates. Granted Marriott hasn’t published it to a website for public scrutiny, but they have been consistent enough that it’s believable this sales literature is legitimate.

Buying anything from either right now is buying on pure speculation.


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## CalGalTraveler

@dougp26364 I agree. Best to wait and see what rolls out in writing.

What is disappointing - and this could still be speculation -  is that MVC is recognizing prior retail purchases for free (or low cost) enrollment and HGVC appears to not. I am puzzled as to why HGVC is not recognizing prior resale and elites.

I am a resale Vistana owner and although I don't like it, I understand the policy. I own where I want to go so wouldn't use the program. If the DP enrollment program transferred to resale buyers like my mandatory StarOptions do, I would consider buy-in, but it appears it does not so will not buy.


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## Ralph Sir Edward

It seems to be that HGV is desperate for money. Everything they have done so far with the merger, is a grasp for more immediate revenue.


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## dayooper

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> It seems to be that HGV is desperate for money. Everything they have done so far with the merger, is a grasp for more immediate revenue.



I thought that as well. Seems like they are doing everything they can to make money right now. I think the push to start making as soon they can after the merger seems correct. The idea of they are creating rules and policies on the fly is spot on. This allows their sales weasels to see what works and what doesn’t. Almost trial by error. I think what we know about Max now (not much) very well may be different a year from now. The ambiguity of what they have put into writing on the website makes it so they can interpret the policies to fit where they will go.


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## CalGalTraveler

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> It seems to be that HGV is desperate for money. Everything they have done so far with the merger, is a grasp for more immediate revenue.



Both MVC and HGV have acquisitions to pay for. The difference is that HGV must find money to upgrade all of those DRI resorts. MVC already has high quality resorts with Westin/Sheraton and Hyatt.

It is clear that DRI was not well managed. Where the extra monies from their high MF went is ???? Hopefully HGV can lend their efficiencies to DRI to help reduce their cost of resort management and use the excess for reserves to pay for upgrades.


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## dioxide45

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> It seems to be that HGV is desperate for money. Everything they have done so far with the merger, is a grasp for more immediate revenue.


HGV has a huge majority shareholder (Apollo) that is really there for just return on investment.


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## escanoe

dioxide45 said:


> HGV has a huge majority shareholder (Apollo) that is really there for just return on investment.



This is concerning news to me. When did Apollo become a majority shareholder?

According to reporting at the time the deal went down, the HGVC owners previous to the merger retained 72% of ownership. 

The required ownership threshold for Apollo (and other DRI investors) to control two board seats was 15%

_"Upon closing, Hilton Grand Vacations' management team will continue in their current roles and the company's board will be upsized to nine members from seven. The selling shareholders will have the right to appoint two directors as long as their equity ownership in the company remains at or above 15% of the outstanding stock at closing and one director as long as their equity ownership remains at or above 10%."_

I have no doubt Apollo has a lot of leverage in this (and it is about making money for everyone) ... but if Apollo now owns a majority this really was DRI taking over HGVC.


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## CalGalTraveler

I am not aware that Apollo has increased their position in HGV beyond the acquisition shares (approx 27%) and 2 out of 9 board seats. Although they are in a position to significantly influence, they don't hold a majority of shares to change votes.  YMMV...This is not my wheelhouse so will defer to others that have been tracking this activity more closely.

If the Apollo Diamond stake has increased, that is cause for concern. Based on the high MF for the mediocre quality of the resorts, it is clear DRI was not well managed.


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## tk25

A list of shareholders for Hilton Grand Vacations.
*HGV Major Holders*
Currency in USD
*Breakdown*

0.82%% of Shares Held by All Insider98.21%% of Shares Held by Institutions99.02%% of Float Held by Institutions308Number of Institutions Holding Shares
*Top Institutional Holders*

HolderSharesDate Reported% OutValueApollo Management Holdings, L.p.30,295,825Dec 30, 202125.22%1,578,715,440Vanguard Group, Inc. (The)8,266,546Dec 30, 20216.88%430,769,712Capital International Investors7,909,060Dec 30, 20216.58%412,141,116CAS Investment Partners, LLC7,727,165Dec 30, 20216.43%402,662,568Blackrock Inc.7,381,558Dec 30, 20216.14%384,652,987AllianceBernstein, L.P.5,421,050Dec 30, 20214.51%282,490,915Parsifal Capital Management, LP4,702,755Dec 30, 20213.91%245,060,563FMR, LLC4,594,816Dec 30, 20213.82%239,435,861North Peak Capital Management, LLC3,796,699Dec 30, 20213.16%197,845,984Franklin Resources, Inc.2,987,798Dec 30, 20212.49%155,694,153
*Top Mutual Fund Holders*

HolderSharesDate Reported% OutValueNew Perspective Fund Inc5,440,146Dec 30, 20214.53%283,486,008Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund2,554,554Dec 30, 20212.13%133,117,808Vanguard Small-Cap Index Fund2,261,866Dec 30, 20211.88%117,865,837iShares Russell 2000 ETF1,957,553Jan 30, 20221.63%95,646,039Franklin Value Investors Trust-Franklin Small Cap Value1,848,291Jan 30, 20221.54%90,307,498AB Cap Fd.-AB Small Cap Growth Port1,780,538Jan 30, 20221.48%86,997,086Smallcap World Fund1,744,923Dec 30, 20211.45%90,927,937Vanguard Small-Cap Growth Index Fund1,408,339Dec 30, 20211.17%73,388,545Vanguard Extended Market Index Fund1,167,116Dec 30, 20210.97%60,818,414Fidelity Small Cap Value Fund985,000Jan 30, 20220.82%48,127,100





*People Also Watch*

SymbolLast PriceChange% ChangeVAC
Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation150.55-4.24-2.74%WH
Wyndham Hotels & Resorts, Inc.86.99-2.61-2.91%PK
Park Hotels & Resorts Inc.19.43-0.34-1.72%H
Hyatt Hotels Corporation94.81-2.25-2.32%CHH
Choice Hotels International, Inc.141.21-3.33-2.30%
*Similar to HGV*

SymbolLast PriceChange% ChangeVAC
Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation150.55-4.24-2.74%BVH
Bluegreen Vacations Holding Corporation28.04+0.22+0.79%BALY
Bally's Corporation28.98-0.66-2.23%MCRI
Monarch Casino & Resort, Inc.72.44-2.57-3.43%GDEN
Golden Entertainment, Inc.49.34-1.75-3.43%


----------



## dayooper

CalGalTraveler said:


> I am not aware that Apollo has increased their position in HGV beyond the acquisition shares (approx 27%) and 2 out of 9 board seats. Although they are in a position to significantly influence, they don't hold a majority of shares to change votes.  YMMV...This is not my wheelhouse so will defer to others that have been tracking this activity more closely.
> 
> If the Apollo Diamond stake has increased, that is cause for concern. Based on the high MF for the mediocre quality of the resorts, it is clear DRI was not well managed.



Apollo owns more stock in HGV than any other entity outside of HGV itself.


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## HuskerATL

From the FB group.


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## escanoe

dayooper said:


> Apollo owns more stock in HGV than any other entity outside of HGV itself.



Noted. It is the largest investor, and I think @dioxide45 likely meant it was a major owner/stockholder vs “majority.”

As Mark Twain said the difference between the right word and the almost right word can be as big as the difference between lightening and the lightning bug.

I don’t always state everything right on here, for sure.


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## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch

I'm going to try to be optimistic here.  If HGVC and DRI were of equal value, wouldn't Apollo own 50% of the shares?  To make matters worse, HGVC only owned 62 resorts, compared to Diamond's 92.  I can't imagine that the board, possibly even Apollo itself, thinks DRI's model was the path to success.  We also have two fundamentally different models: building your own resorts, vs acquisitions of distressed properties.


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## escanoe

I would say it was a complex financial transaction. There is a lot of debt involved on the part of both companies. “Ownership” of the properties within the system is fairly complicated as well. 









						Hilton Grand Vacations to Acquire Diamond Resorts, Creating the Premier Leisure Operator With the Broadest Offering in the Vacation Ownership Industry
					

HILTON GRAND VACATIONS TO ACQUIRE DIAMOND RESORTS, CREATING THE PREMIER LEISURE OPERATOR WITH THE BROADEST OFFERING IN THE VACATION OWNERSHIP INDUSTRY



					www.businesswire.com
				






> Under the terms of the agreement, the Apollo Funds and the other Diamond stockholders, including the Reverence Funds, are expected to receive 34.5 million shares of HGV common stock, valued at approximately $1.4 billion, subject to customary adjustments. Upon transaction close, existing HGV shareholders will own approximately 72% of the combined company and the Apollo Funds will own approximately 28% of the combined company.






90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> I'm going to try to be optimistic here.  If HGVC and DRI were of equal value, wouldn't Apollo own 50% of the shares?  To make matters worse, HGVC only owned 62 resorts, compared to Diamond's 92.  I can't imagine that the board, possibly even Apollo itself, thinks DRI's model was the path to success.  We also have two fundamentally different models: building your own resorts, vs acquisitions of distressed properties.


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## tombanjo

Hmm. I didn’t see my name listed and I own a share.

The Apollo model I think is to borrow huge amounts of money, soak cash out, flip. I think COVID screwed up their plans and HGV was a chance to still get something out of it.

the easiest way to expand a business is to buy another. So HGV adds a lot to their portfolio and massively expands customer base.

it does make them vulnerable if they take a very valuable asset, loyal customers, and piss them off. Their primary market is owners, and if they lose that, it will be very difficult to get them back.


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## CalGalTraveler

tombanjo said:


> it does make them vulnerable if they take a very valuable asset, loyal customers, and piss them off. Their primary market is owners, and if they lose that, it will be very difficult to get them back.



I wholeheartedly agree. I do not think DRI ever understood that.

HGV has loyal customers but they are in a danger zone right now with their loyal base with how they are handling the Max rollout. Especially by not recognizing Elites and retail buyers who have spent thousands on their program.

MVC understands this. They are recognizing prior retail sales with their programs. They cited in a financial disclosure that the majority of their sales are to their existing base. The maxim it takes 7x effort and cost to acquire a new customer than to keep an old one applies.


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## dioxide45

escanoe said:


> Noted. It is the largest investor, and I think @dioxide45 likely meant it was a major owner/stockholder vs “majority.”
> 
> As Mark Twain said the difference between the right word and the almost right word can be as big as the difference between lightening and the lightning bug.
> 
> I don’t always state everything right on here, for sure.


Yeah, I probably misspoke there. Didn't mean to indicate they hold a majority of the shares, just that they are the largest shareholder. Don't they also hold several board seats?


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## dayooper

dioxide45 said:


> Yeah, I probably misspoke there. Didn't mean to indicate they hold a majority of the shares, just that they are the largest shareholder. Don't they also hold several board seats?


Part of the purchase agreement was HGV would increase their board by 2 and they would be filled by Apollo. It will stay this way as long as Apollo keeps a certain percentage of stock.


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## escanoe

That is right. The details of that are in post 401 on this thread.

Above 15%,  they keep 2 on the board.

Above 10%, they keep 1.  



dayooper said:


> Part of the purchase agreement was HGV would increase their board by 2 and they would be filled by Apollo. It will stay this way as long as Apollo keeps a certain percentage of stock.


----------



## McIma

GT75 said:


> Yes, $7K for HGVC members with retail deed(s) to join.


I don't see anywhere that gives you the option for current HGVC Members to "buy in" to HGV Max for $7,000 without buying more points. Back at the beginning of the year, I asked for "more information" and the rep that called me said that the only way for a current HGVC member to get access to HGV Max properties was to buy more points after the launch. Has that changed?


----------



## GT75

McIma said:


> I don't see anywhere that gives you the option for current HGVC Members to "buy in" to HGV Max for $7,000 without buying more points. Back at the beginning of the year, I asked for "more information" and the rep that called me said that the only way for a current HGVC member to get access to HGV Max properties was to buy more points after the launch. Has that changed?


That is in the information posted originally from HGV for Max program, however,  it hasn't (maybe it won't) been implemented (yet).


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## escanoe

GT75 said:


> That is in the information posted originally from HGV for Max program, however,  it hasn't (maybe it won't) been implemented (yet).



My bet is after they finish selling more points (or deeds tied to points) to everyone willing to buy them they will then see if there are any customers/suckers left willing to pay $7k to get into MAX. I am a bit eager to see what is going to be in the club rules/manual/guide for 2023.


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## pedro47

escanoe said:


> My bet is after they finish selling more points (or deeds tied to points) to everyone willing to buy them they will then see if there are any customers/suckers left willing to pay $7k to get into MAX. I am a bit eager to see what is going to be in the club rules/manual/guide for 2023.


The rules will not change until 2024.IMO.


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