# WinPointVIP lifetime membership



## gemini1977 (Jul 14, 2016)

Does anyone know anything about or have thoughts on the product being advertised on this page: http://timeshare-marketplace.com/timeshare-resales/winpointvip/

This service seems to have good reviews on this site but it seems a bit too good to be true.


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## buckor (Jul 14, 2016)

They are a points manager. You pay them a few to have access to reservations, as If You are a VIP. 

Once you pay your "Passport" fee you are then able to rent points from them at $6/k, with all eligible VIP benefits (50% off if within booking window and free upgrades if available).

Main benefit to this is that you are not on the hook for MFs in years you do not travel. Travel when you want for the current rate of  $6/k with no obligation to use any more points than you want. As an example, if you have the 250k passport and only want to use 189k points, then you only pay for the 189k reservation. If you can get that reservation for 50%off, then you only pay for the 94.5k points at $6/k.

Can be a good deal, especially if you can only vacation occasionally yet still want access to VIP benefits, without the obligation of MFs on points you don't use.

I want to make sure everyone knows I am not advertising for WinPoint, just explaining it as I know. I checked into myself during my research about Wyndham.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


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## gemini1977 (Jul 14, 2016)

Ok, I get the $6/1000 points part.

What I'm foggy on is the tiers they have for the memberships.  Why the tiers?  Why not just charge any customer the $6/k regardless of how many points they want to buy?

The packages are also listed as platinum points.  Does that mean that I get to benefit from all the platinum bonuses as if I were the actual owner?

Regarding the booking process, do I just go through WinPoint and they handle all the logistics?  I only tell them what I want and they attempt to get it for me?

Do I pay them only if they are able to get me specifically what I want or do they try to come as close as possible and charge me for whatever they were able to book?

Does anyone do anything similar for any other points based companies, like VSE for example?


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> Does anyone do anything similar for any other points based companies, like VSE for example?



Only the 6 VSE timeshares in the Flex program are points based - the rest of the VSE resorts are weeks based.

VSE does not offer the same VIP benefits that Wyndham does, so they don't have VIP discounts, reduced points, etc.

There are lots of VSE rentals on all of the TS rental websites like TUG, and Redweek for example.


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## buckor (Jul 14, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> Ok, I get the $6/1000 points part.
> 
> What I'm foggy on is the tiers they have for the memberships.  Why the tiers?  Why not just charge any customer the $6/k regardless of how many points they want to buy?
> 
> ...


The tiers, they call them Passports, are the number of points you are allowed to use on an annual basis. So, if you know you want to use 400k points, you'd buy their 500k Passport, which you could use up to 500k points per year.

Yes, you let them know what you want and they do all the reservations.

I'm assuming the prices for each Passport are their profits and help for all the points they rent from a Wyndham owner but don't actually rent out.

Since they manage other's accounts they can't be making much, if anything, off the rentals if they are charging only $6/k points, especially if they are giving the VIP benefits to their own end renters. So, the more I think of it the Passport prices have to be upfront profit. There could be something else I'm missing, though.

Think of it this way...you leave a Wyndham sales presentation, find WynPoint and realize you can "have" the  same number of points for much less money, but with VIP benefits included even at 250k points. And, you don't have to be tied to annual MFs. It's all the benefits of the Wyndham system without the hard financial obligations.   So, you rescind your contract and purchase with WynPoint. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


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## happyhopian (Jul 14, 2016)

Well with no guarantee that they will stay in business nor that Wyndham will not find a way to stop their practice, its pricey to me at least. $8,000 up front for the ability to use $500,000 points per year PLUS $6/1000. YES it is much less than the developer purchase option, but there is no guarantee that they don't close in a year and you're out. That is my only concern otherwise looks very interesting.


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## rhonda (Jul 14, 2016)

My husband and I added a 250k WinPointVIP Passport to supplement our Worldmark and other timeshares a few years back. The small package has been a great tool for booking Wyndham properties for 1 or 2 short stays each year.  



			
				gemini1977 said:
			
		

> The packages are also listed as platinum points. Does that mean that I get to benefit from all the platinum bonuses as if I were the actual owner?


I benefit on the reduced point rebooking, when available.  Once checked in, I don't receive any on-property Wyndham VIP benefits such as Wifi, newspaper, etc.



			
				gemini1977 said:
			
		

> Regarding the booking process, do I just go through WinPoint and they handle all the logistics? I only tell them what I want and they attempt to get it for me?
> 
> Do I pay them only if they are able to get me specifically what I want or do they try to come as close as possible and charge me for whatever they were able to book?


Yes, all bookings are handled through WinPointVIP.  I submit mine via email and have always had very speedy turn around in the communications.  Yes, you list what you want and they respond with exact match or suggestions for similar (or better) accommodations.  

Yes, you only pay when you _agree_ to their reservation match.  They offer a generous cancellation window, if needed.  I've received complete refunds on my cancellations which were each completed in the proper time window.  (I don't recall what the window is ... but it was very generous in my opinion.)

It is an interesting and useful product. For me, it is a great "side dish" on my plate of various timeshares.


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## ronparise (Jul 14, 2016)

P





happyhopian said:


> Well with no guarantee that they will stay in business nor that Wyndham will not find a way to stop their practice, its pricey to me at least. $8,000 up front for the ability to use $500,000 points per year PLUS $6/1000. YES it is much less than the developer purchase option, but there is no guarantee that they don't close in a year and you're out. That is my only concern otherwise looks very interesting.



There are no guarantees in this life. so you are absolutely, there is a risk that they go outof business

The way I look at it that if you buy  a Platinum VIP membership from Wyndham you are guaranteed to spend $35000 to well over $100000 for the buy in and $6000 a year mf

Buy a "passport" from WinPointVip and you will spend much less for same  discounts and upgrades a VIP owner gets, with no obligation going forward. 


as you correctly point out if Mike gets run over by a truck, your "investment" may be at risk, but understand there are real VIP owners that stand behind this stuff. and depend on WinPoint VIP to pay our maintenance fees.  If Win Point VIP closes up shop, as one of his points providers, Ill be in a bind too. and Ill be looking for folks to rent from me.  Chances are we will find each other,

By the way WinPoint VIP is not a one man band. Yes, its a family operation. but Im confidet business will go on even if the boss is no longer around.


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## gemini1977 (Jul 14, 2016)

I emailed WinPoints a list of questions.

Below are the questions and Marc Thomas' responses.

His business makes a lot more sense to me now and does seem like a great value compared to going through Wyndham directly.  However, selling a "lifetime" membership to a product who's features, value, rules, and very existence depend on the whims of another more powerful company seems a bit dubious.  On the positive side, there are real owners sitting behind this and Wyndham is unlikely to do anything to drastically disrupt the benefits there owners paid a lot of money for.  Like many novel things, it may just be a matter of getting comfortable with this unique type of business.


1. The lifetime membership is with your company, not Wyndham, correct?
2. If so, that means the terms and benefits of your membership are dependent on the terms that Wyndham stipulates.  You have no control over those, correct?
3. Wyndham is an international multibillion dollar conglomerate.  You are not.  How secure is a "lifetime" membership with you?
4. What guarantees, if any, do you provide with this membership?
5. Can you provide me with any credentials, affiliations, accreditations, etc. to substantiate the reliability and sustainability of your company?
6. How long have you been in business?
7. Will I ever need to contact and deal directly with Wyndham myself?
8. How exactly does the booking process work?  Is it through phone, email, website, etc.?
9. Aside from the membership fee, are there any other payments I will need to make ever?
10. Do the points I purchase through you come with the same rights and privelages as if I'd purchased them directly? If not, how do they differ?
11. Are the points I purchase tradable in an exchange like Interval International?
12. Can I sell my membership?
13. Can I purchase more points and add them to my membership?
14. Are the points I purchase usable with ALL Wyndhan resorts around the world?
15. Are there any other affiliates I am able to use the points with?
16. Do I have the same level of access and privelages as the actual owners of the points?
17. Do you offer similar products or services for other timeshare companies like VSE?
18. How do you make money on this lifetime membership?  Do you charge owners a management fee?  Do you charge buyers a premium over the lifetime value of the points?


1. The lifetime membership is with WinPointVIP not wyndham.
2. All of our rules are the same as Wyndhams.
3. We have been doing this for 5 years. we book thousands of Wyndham vacations each year. We are doing very well financially.
4. You will be signing a membership agreement and we are not going to commit violate it.
5. We have a AAA Rating with the BBB, PayPay, 100% positive feedback on eBay.
6. Been in business since 2011
7. You will be only dealing with me and the WinPointVIP corporate office.
8. You can book either by phone or email.
9. Each time you book we charge $6 per thousand points used after the 50% platinum points discount. Wyndham charges their owners $5 - $6 per thousand points owned in maintenance fees so it should make sense that we charge $6. If you do not use it you pay nothing.
10. You will be booking at the same level as the guy who spent $200,000 plus to become a Platinum owner.
11. The points are for Club Wyndham and their affiliate resorts only but we give you free access to RCI last call and extra vacations.
12. You can sell or will your membership.
13. You can upgrade to our next level and you have 18 months to do that at our current prices.
14. Yes all Club Wyndham resorts.
15. Many other affiliates and you can see them when you call me we will login together to the Club Wyndham site.
16. The one and only thing that you loose is you will get the 4pm check in instead of the 2pm check in but very seldom does Wyndham make you wait till 4pm.
17. I am not familiar with VSE
18. We make money off the cost of the membership and $1 per thousand on the booking fee. We have 5 times as many platinum points as we have owners and we make our big bucks off our rental pool. We are none as a mega renter.


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## Braindead (Jul 14, 2016)

What about Margaritaville ? Do you get access?


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## ronparise (Jul 14, 2016)

Braindead said:


> What about Margaritaville ? Do you get access?



the same access as if you were a VIP

Wynpoint VIP manages a lot of my points. Their members no doubt have seen confirmations with my name on them as the owner...  I can make Margaritaville reservations (and have) so so can winpoint vip in my account


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## Braindead (Jul 14, 2016)

Thanks Ron . Sounds like it is a good option verses ownership


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2016)

gemini1977 - I have been giving this some thought, and the reason I don't think you will find someone specifically renting the VSE Flex Options (now or in the future) is because:

1.  The 6 VSE Flex Option resorts are not profitable rentals.

2.  VSE does not offer any kind of discount to owners which allows them to use fewer points for reservations - they are always full price for everyone.

One more point - I noticed you asked the Wyndham points manager about "VSE."

Starwood just became "Vistana Signature Experiences" in May, and TUG coined the acronym "VSE."  

AND - Sheraton Flex is also very new.

So, outside of TUG, you are unlikely to find anyone who knows much about either one.


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## gemini1977 (Jul 14, 2016)

@DeniseM: Thanks.  It's good to keep that in mind whenever discussing this with folks outside the forum.

@ronparise:  Can you, or anyone else who might know, elaborate on what VIP benefits renters *do not* get?  I've heard things like early check in, wifi, newspapers, etc.  So far none of them have seemed like deal breakers but I would hate to find out there's something I thought I paid for that I won't get only when I arrive at the resort.  Also, if any issues came up during my stay that required discussion with Wyndham staff or managers, would I contact WinPointVIP to handle the matter themselves?

I guess what I'm trying to get a sense of is whether I will be treated as a "guest" or an 
"owner" during my stay.  The prospect of getting that Platinum VIP level of access, benefits, and treatment is part of what makes this service so compelling.


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## rhonda (Jul 14, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> I guess what I'm trying to get a sense of is whether I will be treated as a "guest" or an
> "owner" during my stay.  The prospect of getting that Platinum VIP level of access, benefits, and treatment is part of what makes this service so compelling.


At check-in, I am treated like a "Guest of an Owner" as my reservation has me listed as a named guest using Wyndham's Guest Certificate.


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## CO skier (Jul 14, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> 9. Each time you book we charge $6 per thousand points used after the 50% platinum points discount. Wyndham charges their owners $5 - $6 per thousand points owned in maintenance fees so it should make sense that we charge $6. If you do not use it you pay nothing.



You missed a few key questions.

Buyer beware.  Like any timeshare salesperson, they make the 50% discount seem so easy and automatic.  To get the 50% platinum points discount requires 1) reserving something that is available within 60 days or 2) cancelling and rebooking a prime reservation within 60 days.

#2 has become more "iffy" recently.

Would I risk my Holiday ski vacation to cancel/rebook for a 50% discount 60 days before arriving?  No way, not for me.

My maintenance fees are $6.50/1000.  In my case and similar cases, direct ownership of 300K points for ARP and at a cost of $1.00 plus closing costs is a much better deal versus $8,000 plus $6/1000.

Does WinPoint even offer ARP for any reservations?  (This is a critical question you did not ask).  All the 3 bedroom units for ski weeks are reserved during ARP at my resort.  "Points are points" does not work in this case.

Everyone's situation is different.  Decide, as much as possible, what you want and need before committing to any purchase.

For anyone who mostly vacations off-season and can easily cancel/rebook, WinPoint might be a winner.


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## ronparise (Jul 14, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> @DeniseM: Thanks.  It's good to keep that in mind whenever discussing this with folks outside the forum.
> 
> @ronparise:  Can you, or anyone else who might know, elaborate on what VIP benefits renters *do not* get?  I've heard things like early check in, wifi, newspapers, etc.  So far none of them have seemed like deal breakers but I would hate to find out there's something I thought I paid for that I won't get only when I arrive at the resort.  Also, if any issues came up during my stay that required discussion with Wyndham staff or managers, would I contact WinPointVIP to handle the matter themselves?
> 
> ...



Here are the VIP benefits

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/plus_membersdirectory1415/#/362 



some are at the resorts , like early check in and  a news paper, These benefits are not extended to guests

The only benefits that make a difference are 
1) the 50% discount 
2) free upgrades

some might like access to Margaritaville and the ability to choose a room, but the first two are the reason to buy VIP benefits. And thats the whole point of buying a WinPointVIP passport

And they will do a better job at getting a discount and upgrade than you could do yourself.


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## gemini1977 (Jul 14, 2016)

> My maintenance fees are $6.50/1000. In my case and similar cases, direct ownership of 300K points for ARP and at a cost of $1.00 plus closing costs is a much better deal versus $8,000 plus $6/1000.



I appreciate the contrarian view.

Few questions:

- What does ARP stand for?
- How much did you pay for the 300k points...including all additional costs/fees?
- Do you pay annual taxes?  If so, how much are they?
- Are you a platinum VIP member?


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## tschwa2 (Jul 14, 2016)

> My maintenance fees are $6.50/1000. In my case and similar cases, direct ownership of 300K points for ARP and at a cost of $1.00 plus closing costs is a much better deal versus $8,000 plus $6/1000.



It is much harder to find a 300K with a mf of $6.50/1000 for less than $1000 including closing costs these days.  The current rate is probably in the $1500-$2000 range.  With Ovation if someone wanted to give it to a buyer for $1, the seller would still have to pay $299 transfer cost plus about $200 in closing and recording costs.  The process would probably take an additional 3 months of MF's.  Vs $0 out of pocket and 2-3 weeks though ovation.  It really isn't worth selling for less than $500 with the buying paying the $500-$600 in transfer fee and closing costs.

and you don't have to worry about transaction costs, HK and for the most part guest certificates and depending on where you book you do get upgrades and points discounts that might allow you to stay in a larger unit for half the cost compared to your points cost.

So if you plan on using your entire 300k on one large vacation at a hard to get location that needs to be booked during ARP then VIP benefits don't really matter.  If you plan on several short stays, with some in less than prime time then those benefits matter more.


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2016)

gemini1977 - In general, timeshare ownership does not have the kind of fancy-pants benefits that hotel programs offer.  

So when you ask about what benefits that VIP's are getting - they aren't getting fruit baskets, chocolates, champagne and similar benefits from the resort management.   

Generally, timeshare resorts are pretty democratic, with everyone having equal access to all amenities at the resort.


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## CO skier (Jul 15, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> I appreciate the contrarian view.
> 
> Few questions:
> 
> ...



ARP = Advance Reservation Priority available only at your home resort 10-13 months in advance of arrival.  Call-in only available for reservations during this time.  It puts deeded owners 3 months ahead of the "points are points" owners at the deeded resort -- an excellent benefit for "must have" reservations.

Cost for 300k points about $600 all-in for two contracts.  This was when transfer costs were $150/contract.  The second contract included free transfer and 6 months of prepaid maintenance fees.  With patience, similar deals can still be found when the market bottoms in November - February every year.

Taxes are included in the $6.50/1000 maintenance fees.  I no longer itemize, so there is no deduction for me.  The property taxes are insignificant, anyway.

I am not a Platinum VIP owner and have no reason to be one.  I reserve 13 months in advance, then 13 months later, I go on vacation.  Only once have I reserved at 10 months, and once I booked within 30 days at a discount and borrowed some points for an excellent Presidents weekend ski vacation.

I think for most owners "points are points" works, and that is why they belong to a points system.  It most definitely would not work for me 90% of the time.  Only ARP works for me, and it works exceedingly well as it puts me at the front of the line for the best reservations at my home resort.

Club Wyndham Access might work as well, but those contracts sell for more than $1.00.  If I were interested in some of the other resorts, though, it might be worth it and still a much better deal than WinPoint VIP for the ARP.


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## gemini1977 (Jul 15, 2016)

Thanks for the link ronparis.



> Buyer beware. Like any timeshare salesperson, they make the 50% discount seem so easy and automatic. To get the 50% platinum points discount requires 1) reserving something that is available within 60 days or 2) cancelling and rebooking a prime reservation within 60 days.



Reading through the link ronparis provided, it seems CO_skier is correct regarding the 50% discount.  It seems the 50% discount is a nice bonus but not something you can expect to get most of the time.


Additionally, below is verbatim what the Wyndhad membership catalog has to say about guests.  It seems guests are treated as non-VIP during their stay.

*"Guest traveling without a CLUB WYNDHAM Plus VIP member present are not eligible to receive VIP benefits during their stay."*




> The only benefits that make a difference are
> 1) the 50% discount
> 2) free upgrades



So it's starting to seem like the only value in offering a product that includes Platinum VIP points is the above, with the caveat that you will only get them some of the time.

So most of the time you will get the accommodations the points you bought will get you without any special treatment or benefits.  With the advantage being that you pay a lot less for those points than the owners and you don't have to worry about maintenance fees or taxes or fees.


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## rhonda (Jul 15, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> So it's starting to seem like the only value in offering a product that includes Platinum VIP points is the above, with the caveat that you will only get them some of the time.
> 
> So most of the time you will get the accommodations the points you bought will get you without any special treatment or benefits.  With the advantage being that you pay a lot less for those points than the owners and you don't have to worry about maintenance fees or taxes or fees.


... AND ... 
no worries about Housekeeping credits ($); 
no worries about Guest Certs ($); 
no worries about paying dues in years you "skip"; 
no need to learn about credit pooling (is this the right term?);
no worries about reservation fees ($);
No worries for an exit strategy.


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## CO skier (Jul 15, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> So most of the time you will get the accommodations the points you bought will get you without any special treatment or benefits.  With the advantage being that you pay a lot less for those points than the owners and you don't have to worry about maintenance fees or taxes or fees.



I think you are still missing the fact that with WinPoint VIP you are paying $6/1000 for maintenance fees, taxes and fees versus owners who pay $6.50/1000 (this does vary from resort to resort).   Is the $0.50/1000 savings worth the $8,000 buy in and the risks associated with a third party dealing versus direct ownership and ARP?  It all depends on how and when you vacation.

I do not know if the $99 guest certificate is included with the WinPoint VIP reservation or if it is an additional charge.  That is another question to ask.

Has anyone ever lost their WinPoint VIP reservation trying to cancel/rebook for the 50% discount?  That is another good question to ask.


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## rhonda (Jul 15, 2016)

CO skier said:


> I do not know if the $99 guest certificate is included with the WinPoint VIP reservation or if it is an additional charge.  That is another question to ask.


It is not an extra charge.  It was my understanding that guest certs are free to full-fledged Wyndham VIP (Plat VIP?) accounts -- but I could be wrong on that.  Either way -- as a WinPointVIP Passport user, I don't encounter a fee to have reservations put into my name as guest of the underlying account owner.  

In line with what you've pointed out above, I use WinPointVIP for "side dish" vacations not my "must have, holiday, extended family" trips.  I have one "pretty easy to book" trip that I request a full year out at Pagosa each Sept ... and have also used it for last-minute travel booked inside the 60-day (?) VIP discounted point window.


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## CO skier (Jul 15, 2016)

tschwa2 said:


> It is much harder to find a 300K with a mf of $6.50/1000 for less than $1000 including closing costs these days.



I did not have to look too hard to find at least one with a MF of $6.47 for 189,000 points at an all-in price of $615.  $0.003/point for 189k or 300k is peanuts.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wyndham-Pag...928616?hash=item3f65724a68:g:O1cAAOSwOVpXbVtE

These will only get cheaper in 6 months.


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## gemini1977 (Jul 15, 2016)

@CO_skier: Thanks for the unsightful questions.  I will put these to the folks at WinPointsVIP.




> no worries about Housekeeping credits ($);
> no worries about Guest Certs ($);
> no worries about paying dues in years you "skip";
> no need to learn about credit pooling (is this the right term?);
> ...



I also agree that these extras do add value to the WinPointsVIP product.  And, even if I only benefit from the 50% discount and free upgrades some of the time it is still something I would not get at all without the VIP points.

I also like the fact that the folks at WinPointVIP are insiders(so they say at least) and do the leg work for me.  For a newbie like me, having someone with experience working on my behalf is attractive.

I wonder what the results of a cost benefit analysis would be if we took CO_skier's scenario compared to an equivalent WinPointVIP tier, taking into account all current costs, fees, MFs, VIP benefits, etc. and projected them out a full decade.  My guess is that the difference in cost would not be too significant except that with WinPointVIP you avoid many of the headaches that comes from ownership.  But I could be wrong 

Anyone want to take a crack at that?  I would but I'm afraid my inexperience would result in erroneous assumptions.


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## ronparise (Jul 15, 2016)

folks that want to be a platinum VIP can either buy from Wyndham or Winpointvip VIP. there Is no other way to be VIP  

The question one should be asking isn't how can I get VIP benefits cheaply? Rather ask, are  benefits worth paying anything for at all

The answer is almost always no


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## gemini1977 (Jul 15, 2016)

Since I have no takers, I will take a crack at doing a 10 year cost projection.

*Please note that since I am very new to timeshares and the Wyndham product in particular there are likely many incorrect and/or missing assumptions.  It would be great of readers that find errors could post their corrections.  Additionally, I have not taken into account the impact of rising MF costs or other non-fixed variables.  Lastly, the resale numbers I am using are based on what CO_skier has provided in this thread and WinPointVIP's cheapest tier of 250,000 points.*

I want to project and compare two scenarios.  One, you buy Wyndham points on resale the way CO_skier did.  Two, you buy a WinPointVIP membership.

Resale purchase/direct ownership:
Buy in Price($0.003 * 250k = *$750*) + Annual MF(6.47 * 250 * 10 = *$16,175*) = *$16,925 total*

WinPointVIP membership:
250k points tier price(*$4,500*) + booking fee($6 * 250 * 10 = *$15000*) = *$19,500 total*

Things to note:
- With possible upgrades, 50% discounts, and the ability to pay for only the points you use and skip an entire year completely, the $15000 for WinPointVIP above would likely be a couple thousand less.
- I've heard MF can rise over time. It will definitely affect the resale scenario but might also affect the WinPointVIP scenario.
- With direct ownership, you have to sell to be free of MF and the transaction could come at a cost.  With WinPointVIP you can walk away scott free and may even be able to sell your membership.
- There may be other costs associated with direct ownership that I am not aware of.  If so, that further adds to the resale scenario.
- When everything is said and done, unless I am really really off on my numbers, it seems the total 10 year cost for each could be pretty even.  If so, I may opt for the WinPointsVIP option since it doesn't come with direct ownership headaches.


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## K2Quick (Jul 15, 2016)

So I have to imagine the $6.00 per K booking fee increases as maintenance fees increase.  Is that increase baked into the terms and conditions of a Winpoint membership?


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## bobbyoc23 (Jul 15, 2016)

If you know you're looking for a 10 year commitment only then WinPointVIP might make more sense. As you said, you can end the commitment hassle free. However, if you think you'll need/want the timeshare longer than there's no guarantee that WinPointVIP will always be in business, or that Wyndham does not create new rules from interfering with their business model. Also, ARP is not factored into your analysis, if you think you'll need it. And RCI exchanges are not as well (if you think there's any benefit to it).


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## rhonda (Jul 15, 2016)

K2Quick said:


> So I have to imagine the $6.00 per K booking fee increases as maintenance fees increase.  Is that increase baked into the terms and conditions of a Winpoint membership?


I signed an agreement in late summer 2013.  At that time, the 2013 and 2014 rates were both spelled out with the very next sentence reading, "The pool rate is calculated at a small margin above the current Landlord reimbursement rate as determined each year at WinPointVIP’s discretion in order to cover administrative expenses. "


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## gemini1977 (Jul 15, 2016)

> So I have to imagine the $6.00 per K booking fee increases as maintenance fees increase. Is that increase baked into the terms and conditions of a Winpoint membership?



One of the reasons owners go through WinPointVIP is because it helps cover their MF.  So if the MF increases I would imagine that WinPointVIP would at least be pressured to increased their per 1k point fee to keep the benefit to owners the same.  I don't know if this is built into the he contract though.




> If you know you're looking for a 10 year commitment only then WinPointVIP might make more sense. As you said, you can end the commitment hassle free. However, if you think you'll need/want the timeshare longer than there's no guarantee that WinPointVIP will always be in business, or that Wyndham does not create new rules from interfering with their business model. Also, ARP is not factored into your analysis, if you think you'll need it. And RCI exchanges are not as well (if you think there's any benefit to it).



I think it is safe to say most buyers of either product have a long term horizon.  I don't know how many owners stick around for 10.  Is that uncommon amongst timeshare customers?  For a resort network as expansive as Wyndham's, I can see myself using it for 10 years or potentially longer.  And I can skip years without costs and still come back.

I do agree that a "lifetime" product seems less attractive coming from a family business than from a large, multinational, multimillion dollar, corporation.  There really isn't a whole lot WinPointVIP can do about that except to continue providing their customers with quality service to accumulate a positive reputation, which so far they seem to be doing.  From my perspective, it seems like the interests of owners, WinPointVIP customers, and Wyndham are more or less aligned.  As long as that continues, there shouldn't be changes that are very material to the value of the WinPointVIP product.

As for the financial impact of ARP and RCI, I don't know much about the mechanics and cost of those features to make a reasonable projection with them.  If anyone is and is willing, please make the necessary adjustments to help increase the projection's accuracy.


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## rhonda (Jul 15, 2016)

gemini1977,

Don't forget to factor in housekeeping and reservation fees if you think you might spread your point usage across several small'ish vacations per year in the Wyndham model.

For Wyndham owners/experts:
As for ARP -- my WinPointVIP account includes "Presidential Reserve Priority" which was used, at least once, to snag a 2BR Penthouse in SFO over a minor holiday weekend.  How does Presidential Reserve Priority compare to ARP?  (Just wondering... thx!)


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## gemini1977 (Jul 15, 2016)

@rhonda,

So through WinPointVIP you pay your own housekeeping and reservations fees or just through direct ownership?  What is the formula for how housekeeping and reservation fees are paid and calculated?

Also, have you ever benefited from the 50% discount given to platinum point holders?  If so, how many times would you calculate a WinPointVIP owner might benefit from this over the course of 10 years?  I know it depends but let's assume 2 one week trips every year for 10 years during high season and low season.  Any educated guesses?


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## rhonda (Jul 15, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> @rhonda,
> 
> So through WinPointVIP you pay your own housekeeping and reservations fees or just through direct ownership?  What is the formula for how housekeeping and reservation fees are paid and calculated?


Formulas for WinPointVIP member:
Housekeeping:  $0.00
Free unlimited housekeeping
Reservation Fees: $0.00
For Wyndham owners, based on my casual review (recall, I'm not a Wyndham owner):
Housekeeping:  Owners receive 1 housekeeping credit per thousand Wyndham points per use year.  Each stay is 'charged' housekeeping credits based on the unit size and length of stay.  Once you've used up your free housekeeping credits, you will be charged housekeeping based on the unit size.
Reservation Fees:  Owners receive some allocation of free reservation transactions (edited to add: 1 per 77k points owned).  All transactions conducted w/in the same business day consumes only one Reservation/Transaction credit.  Reservations/Transactions beyond the owner's allocation are charged, but I don't know the rate.
*EDITED TO ADD:* See page 338-339 of the link Ron posted (#17 of this thread) for complete info on Housekeeping and Reservation credits / fees.



gemini1977 said:


> Also, have you ever benefited from the 50% discount given to platinum point holders?  If so, how many times would you calculate a WinPointVIP owner might benefit from this over the course of 10 years?  I know it depends but let's assume 2 one week trips every year for 10 years during high season and low season.  Any educated guesses?


We've completed 4 reservations in three years with one on the books for this fall.  I've received the 50% discount on 3 of the 4 and am waiting to see it comes through for this fall's reservation.  For high demand locations/seasons -- rather unlikely unless, perhaps, you are booking at last minute trip w/in the upgrade window?  For low demand locations/periods -- I'd guess you have at least a 50% chance, possibly better.

I was pretty surprised to get the 50% upgrade on the 2BR Penthouse in San Francisco -- but it was a last minute reservation and we were l-u-c-k-y (and fortunately assisted by Mike!).


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## gemini1977 (Jul 15, 2016)

> Formulas for WinPointVIP member:
> Housekeeping: $0.00
> Free unlimited housekeeping
> Reservation Fees: $0.00
> ...



I'm not sure how I would include this in the financial projection.  However, it is valuable to know as a WinPointVIP member I get to benefit from unlimited housekeeping and no reservation fees.  Those are very nice bonuses...who likes to do housekeeping 

I'm pleasantly surprised you got the 50% discount that often.  Even if we can only expect to get the 50% discount 25% of the time, that would change the projection quite considerably.  I've made that addition to the projection below.


Resale purchase/direct ownership:
Buy in Price($0.003 * 250k = $750) + Annual MF(6.47 * 250 * 10 = $16,175) = *$16,925 total*

WinPointVIP membership:
250k points tier price($4,500) + booking fee($6 * 250 * 10 = $15000) - 50% discount($15000 * .25 * .5 = $1875) = *$17,625 total*


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## tschwa2 (Jul 15, 2016)

The HK fee is the cleaning fee between stays.  Not cleaning of unit while you are there.  

If you were looking at doing 1-2 full weeks with your 250,000 points you probably wouldn't need to worry about paying extra for HK fees.  For every stay beyond 2 per year, you probably would be looking at another fee per stay depending on the size of the units you are reserving.


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## rhonda (Jul 15, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> I'm not sure how I would include this in the financial projection.  However, it is valuable to know as a WinPointVIP member I get to benefit from unlimited housekeeping and no reservation fees.  Those are very nice bonuses...who likes to do housekeeping


I think you would have to forecast how you plan to use the membership, either ...:
Full week stays
-OR-
Multiple short stays
The Housekeeping plan is rigged to 'cover' those who book _traditional full week stays_.  Those who do more frequent short stays create more work from the resort -- as the resort must clean the unit between each guest.  Thus, those who book more frequent short stays are charged housekeeping on the reservations that _exceed_ the predicted housekeeping pattern.  Wyndham uses Housekeeping _Credits_ to address the issue.  See page 338-339 of the book linked in Ron's post, #17 of this thread.  

I'm pretty certain, if I owned and used Wyndham the same way I use my Worldmark, that I'd be in a world of hurt on housekeeping and reservation/transaction fees as I book plenty of short stay reservations each year.  Using the Wyndham Housekeeping model, I'd be paying *$142 per stay* at least 3x/year once I've exceeded my annual allotment of housekeeping credits.  The calculation behind this:   $2.25 per Wyndham Housekeeping Credit * '63'; where '63' is the number of housekeeping credits consumed for a 1BR stay, up to 7 nights.  Ouch!


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## gemini1977 (Jul 15, 2016)

Well I originally assumed a couple of one week stays per year.  However, it isn't unrealistic to assume that some years I might travel more often.  If that were the case then maybe we can assume, using rhonda's numbers, that I may have to pay the HK fee on 20% of my stays at an average of 3 stays per year.  So the projection might change to the below.


Resale purchase/direct ownership:
Buy in Price($0.003 * 250k = $750) + Annual MF(6.47 * 250 * 10 = $16,175) + HK Fees(10 * 3 * .2 * $142 = $852) = *$17,777 total*

WinPointVIP membership:
250k points tier price($4,500) + booking fee($6 * 250 * 10 = $15000) - 50% discount($15000 * .25 * .5 = $1875) = *$17,625 total*


As I suspected, things are evening out.

Any idea what the reservation/transaction fees would be?

The other thing that I wonder about, which is very difficult to calculate, is how often your average timeshare user vacations within their available network of resorts and how often they might go outside of it.  I think this matters a lot to the projections since the WinPointVIP product charges nothing if you don't use any points.  However, with direct ownership you are still on the hook for the MF.  Since I've never used timeshares before I don't really know how often I would stray from my timeshare network of resorts.  There are places where Wyndham has very little presence like Europe or Asia.  So I know for certain there will be times when I won't be vacationing with them.


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## Bigrob (Jul 16, 2016)

I am not sure, but I believe as a Winpoint VIP member you would have access to ARP at essentially every resort at all times, since it is a pool of Platinum VIP owners each of whom likely have multiple contracts and resort ownerships/CWA in their account. Since you are not "tied" to one owner's account, your request would be matched to the account that can provide it. 

Presidential Reserve provides the ability to make reservations in Presidential Reserve units 14 months in advance. A lot of the Presidential Reserve inventory is held until 30 days prior to check-in for Presidential Reserve members. Having access to this inventory can be important at locations that have Presidential Reserve (Beaver Creek, Park City, Bonnet Creek, Panama City Beach, etc. etc.)


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## rhonda (Jul 16, 2016)

Bigrob said:


> I am not sure, but I believe as a Winpoint VIP member you would have access to ARP at essentially every resort at all times, since it is a pool of Platinum VIP owners each of whom likely have multiple contracts and resort ownerships/CWA in their account. Since you are not "tied" to one owner's account, your request would be matched to the account that can provide it.
> 
> Presidential Reserve provides the ability to make reservations in Presidential Reserve units 14 months in advance. A lot of the Presidential Reserve inventory is held until 30 days prior to check-in for Presidential Reserve members. Having access to this inventory can be important at locations that have Presidential Reserve (Beaver Creek, Park City, Bonnet Creek, Panama City Beach, etc. etc.)


Thanks for these explanations, Rob!


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## gemini1977 (Jul 16, 2016)

> I'm pretty certain, if I owned and used Wyndham the same way I use my Worldmark, that I'd be in a world of hurt



Rhonda, or anyone else that might know, can you explain the difference between Wyndham and Worldmark?  Isn't Worldmark a Wyndham product?


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## ronparise (Jul 16, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> Rhonda, or anyone else that might know, can you explain the difference between Wyndham and Worldmark?  Isn't Worldmark a Wyndham product?



Club Wyndham is a timeshare club. and Worldmark the Club is a timeshare club, and Shell Vacations is a timeshare club. The developer and manager happens to be the same company, Wyndham

Wyndham also has a rental network that includes RCI 

Wyndham also franchised a number of hotel brands.  including Ramada, Days Inn, Super 8 and Howard Johnson


All of these are diffwewnt Brands within Wyndham Worldwide


If you want to learn about the different timeshates this is a good place to be. There there is a Wyndham forum here with a worldmark sub forum


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## DeniseM (Jul 16, 2016)

gemini1977 - You started out on the VSE forum and now you are getting more info about other systems - VERY GOOD IDEA.

However, please be aware, that the _quality_ of the resorts in all systems is not equal.

I own both Wyndham and VSE timeshares, and OVERALL VSE is a step or 2 above Wyndham.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't buy Wyndham - not at all.  

But you should be aware that Wyndham timeshares have a range of quality from 2-5 Star, with most being in the middle, where VSE timeshares are pretty much 4-5 Star across the board.

I own 7 weeks at a "3 Star" Wyndham timeshares on Kauai, and it is my favorite timeshare, but they are not in the same ballpark as my "5 Star" VSE timeshare on Maui, and my "4 Star" VSE timeshare in Scottsdale.

All that means is that there is a _wider range of quality_ with Wyndham, so when you are doing your planning, you need to do some research on the Wyndham resort you may visit, and not just assume that it will be top quality.

In general, the hotel affiliated resort systems have the best overall resort quality (4-5 Star) and the other systems are a step or 2 below.  

Hotel Systems:  Marriott, Hilton, Hyatt, VSE.


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## gemini1977 (Jul 16, 2016)

> Club Wyndham is a timeshare club. and Worldmark the Club is a timeshare club, and Shell Vacations is a timeshare club. The developer and manager happens to be the same company, Wyndham



So Wyndham manages three different clubs?...interesting.  Can you briefly elaborate on the differences?  Which one does WinPointVIP work with?


@DeniseM,

Thank you so much for clarifying regarding the quality of the different resorts.  It's definitely something to consider.  Do you have any thoughts on which hotel system provides the best combination of quality, value, network size, and customer service?  I know it is a very broad question but any feedback to go on would help.


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## DeniseM (Jul 16, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> Do you have any thoughts on which hotel system provides the best combination of quality, value, network size, and customer service?  I know it is a very broad question but any feedback to go on would help.



Based on the posts here, I think that the top 4 systems are similar in quality.  None of them are perfect, but I think they do a better job than some of their lower level competitors.  

The thing to remember is that these management companies are in business to make a profit, and to make their stock holders happy, and that will be their primary goal - before making owners happy. 

When comparing the 4 top systems, I would decide which of the systems is best for you based on where their timeshares are_ located_, and if that is a good match to your needs.  Of course, you may start with one, but you may buy more later, so you can certainly own in more than one system, to meet different needs.

*Also, be sure you take a hard look at what your deeded rights are, and what the management company can change with no notice.  Wyndham points have gone through lots of changes, as  have other companies.

Let me give you an example of how a less expensive timeshare can be the best choice - The VSE ocean front timeshares in Hawaii sell for more than $20K per week - *on the resale market.*  I wanted to own several ocean front weeks in Hawaii, but I wasn't paying $20K for them.

So I discovered that there was a resort on Kauai (*currently a Wyndham resort) where you can buy ocean front deeds with fabulous views for little or nothing - so that was a good option for us, and now we own 7 weeks there.  I paid less than $5,000 for all 7 weeks, and the MF is less than half of the Hawaii VSE resorts.

It's not 4 or 5 Star, and it doesn't have the upscale resort amenities - but it has one of the best *views* in Hawaii, and that was my goal.

*Interesting Fact:  The BOD of my Kauai timeshare and Wyndham didn't see eye to eye, so they ended their contract with Wyndham and have hired a different management company.  This was possible because this resort was part of a small 4-resort chain in Hawaii, with independent BOD's, and a few years ago, they hired Wyndham to be the management Co.  After a few years, 2 of the 4 resorts  were disenchanted with Wyndham and basically fired them - so they are gone at the end of the year.  However, some of the weeks owners enrolled their weeks in Wyndham points, so Wyndham will still have an interest at the resort - but won't be the management company.

This is not likely to happen at the resorts that were *developed *by Wyndham, because they are in control there.  But this is an example of how thing can and do change.


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## buckor (Jul 16, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> Based on the posts here, I think that the top 4 systems are similar in quality.  None of them are perfect, but I think they do a better job than some of their lower level competitors.
> 
> The thing to remember is that these management companies are in business to make a profit, and to make their stock holders happy, and that will be their primary goal - before making owners happy.
> 
> ...


Very good advice Denise!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


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## ronparise (Jul 16, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> So Wyndham manages three different clubs?...interesting.  Can you briefly elaborate on the differences?  Which one does WinPointVIP work with?






I dont know shell, but for what its worth , heres my take on Wyndham and Worldmark

Worldmark is stronger in the West, Wyndham in the East,

 They use different currencies, a Wyndham 2 bedroom in a Legacy resort is 154000 points, a Worldmark 2 bedroom in a legacy resort is 10000 credits

Wyndham. for the most part operates with a home resort concept, Worldmark does not

Wyndham is generally cheaper to buy but more expensive to own, Worldmark is more expensive to buy but cheaper to own.. (over time they pretty much even out

Worldmark has a wait list, bonus time and other cash options to enjoy the resorts. , Wyndham does not

Both clubs have a good cancellation policy . but they are different

Wyndham gives you a 1 included guest confirmation (more for VIP owners) and charges when you exceed your allocation. Worldmark doesnt charge for guests

Wyndham charges for excessive transactions, worldmark does not

Both clubs charge when you exceed your allocated house cleanings

Worldmark provides a spice pack in the kitchens, Wyndham provides a bag of popcorn. 

Most people think Worldmark resorts are furnished to a lower stabdard that Wyndham, but thats changing, curtains are being added to the Worldmark resorts and tvs are going into the bedrooms


Having the same manager has resulted in some overlap. Wyndham has created an in house exchange program so that some Worldmark owners can use their credits to stay in Wyndham resorts, and some Wyndham owners can use their points to stay in Worldmark resorts

And there are some resorts that the two clubs share. There are both Worldmark and Wyndham rooms in the resorts in Daytona, New Orleans and 10 or 15 other properties.


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## gemini1977 (Jul 16, 2016)

Thanks everyone for all the information!

It's a lot to digest and I'm not sure I've yet narrowed down exactly what product fits me best.  In hope of helping you help me, I've listed my criteria below in order of priority.  In addition, I've provided my travel criteria.

1. Selection - I don't like to vacation to the same places regularly.  I prefer something new every time and enjoy various types of lodging.  I also like to travel BOTH nationally and internationally.

2. Flexibility - My personal circumstances are such that I don't always know when, where, and how much many months in advance.  Sometimes I can plan ahead and sometimes I can't.  I also have a bias against long term financial obligations, especially when it comes to discretionary spending.

3. Affordability - While I've never been shy to spend while vacationing, I do value good deals and financial benefits whenever I can get them.  Financial perks, flexibility, optionality, and transparency always make me feel more comfortable and like my business is valued.

4. Quality - If I'm paying for quality, I expect quality.  I shouldn't have to ask or haggle for something I feel I've paid for.  I expect a certain standard.  Not necessarily luxury, but do want to feel like I'm in a safe, healthy, and hospitable environment with caring attentive staff.

5. Simplicity - If planning and conducting my vacation feels like I need to consult with my lawyer, CPA, and broker then it stops feeling like a vacation.  It should either be relatively simple or I should have access to resources that help facilitate the process.

6. Optionality - I've already said "I do" to someone.  I don't want to marry anyone else.  So any investment or financial commitment that provides me with liquidity and/or a strong set of rights over my ownership is one that I would find appealing.


I usually travel 2-3 times a year between the months of June and September and November and January.  I travel with 4-6 people, book about 2-3 months in advance, and stay at 3-5 star accommodations.  I travel both nationally and internationally with a preference to warmer regions.


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## rhonda (Jul 17, 2016)

Love your list, Ron, right down to the quirky "popcorn vs spices."  
In similar vein, but written from a WM point of view:
Worldmark allows check-in on any day of the week; Wyndham favors certain arrival days.  (I encounter this when trying to book Thurs-Mon weekends via WinPointVIP and must now take 5 nights rather than the 4 I intend to use due to Wyndham's restrictions on check-in / length of stay.  Seems WM is far more "fluid" on this concept.)
Most WM units have a grill on the patio.  I've only encountered shared grills in resort-common areas at the Wyndhams I've visited?
WM favors murphy beds in the living room; Wyndham favors sleeper couches.  (Is this true for "most" Wyndham? While Pagosa has murphy beds, Dolphin's cove is a sleeper sofa.)
WM's point system has always been a point system; Wyndham's was rolled-out on top of an existing 'weeks' system.  Wyndham has both 'weeks' and 'points' (two different kind of points) running concurrently within the system. Following Wyndham's takeover of Worldmark management, Wyndham introduced a secondary system on top of Worldmark's existing system ... so WM now, also, has two systems (Worldmark and Worldmark with TravelShare).
WM owners may choose, of their own decision, to have an exchange account with RCI and/or II.  WM w/ TravelShare includes an RCI membership automatically as does Wyndham ownerships.  Some Wyndham owners may choose II -- but that is based on the history of specific Wyndham locations and limited to those locations.

@gemini1977: Wyndham has multiple systems (Wyndham, Worldmark, Shell) because they bought out the exclusive rights to be the developer (and thus manager) of Worldmark and Shell.  The industry, as a whole, has seen many changes over the years ... be prepared to know that you have little to no control over what you "own."  Change happens.  Very few timeshares remain "pure" these days -- but rather reflect growth from a hodgepodge of different forms: their own development, acquisitions, mergers, etc.

The most significant difference, in my opinion, between the two are the locations. Timeshare is its own thing in the travel world and does not replace hotels, cruises, camping, rail or other travel forms for "all global locations."  When you travel internationally, you are very likely to continue booking international travel just as you do now -- be that hotels, BnB, rail, cruise, etc.  Timeshares, especially in Europe, tend to be "out in the country" where the locals go to escape their cities, to relax and to play.  Travelers tend to visit cities -- and timeshare options in cities are few (but recently increasing).  

So as you look at Timeshares, consider the "drive to" locations nearest you.  You'll likely use those more often than you think.  They become pretty special to the little ones as their "second home" if you use them frequently.  If you in the western states, WM might be a stronger option than Wyndham and vice versa for eastern states. If you are eastern, you might also consider BlueGreen which is often recommended.  

Back to the question: differences between Wyndham/Worldmark.  There are many subtle differences stemming from their long, independent histories.  Some differences are erasing over time through the common management and I expect this to continue.  

Talk to WinPointVIP about Worldmark -- I know they have or manage at least some Worldmark.  It may be they can book WM for you, if requested.  



ronparise said:


> I dont know shell, but for what its worth , heres my take on Wyndham and Worldmark
> 
> Worldmark is stronger in the West, Wyndham in the East,
> 
> ...


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## rhonda (Jul 17, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> I usually travel 2-3 times a year between the months of June and September and November and January.  I travel with 4-6 people, *book about 2-3 months in advance*, and stay at 3-5 star accommodations.  I travel both nationally and internationally with a preference to warmer regions.


The bolded section in the last paragraph is quite telling.  Timeshares generally require long booking windows ... sometimes out to 18 months out for trades (outside one's own resort network).

That said, I'm particularly lucky with short-term booking cycles w/in Worldmark using Inventory Specials (up to 3 months out), Monday Madness (up to 11 months out), and Bonus Time (14-days out for CONUS and northern Baja, MX).  I also enjoy the occasional, and very random, Getaway week from RCI/II.  It isn't entirely unlikely that we'll travel "wherever" based on availability and accessibility (driving distance or cheap airfare).

Timeshares, as I mentioned in my prior post, don't replace/displace other travel options.  They are their own thing offering SPACE, kitchens, laundry, play areas and a generally kick-back, family atmosphere.  Some offer a greater sense of "community" -- much like cruising -- where you get to know your fellow travelers.  It is, in my view, wonderfully different from hoteling.


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## ronparise (Jul 17, 2016)

rhonda said:


> Love your list, Ron, right down to the quirky "popcorn vs spices."
> In similar vein, but written from a WM point of view:
> Worldmark allows check-in on any day of the week; Wyndham favors certain arrival days.  (I encounter this when trying to book Thurs-Mon weekends via WinPointVIP and must now take 5 nights rather than the 4 I intend to use due to Wyndham's restrictions on check-in / length of stay.  Seems WM is far more "fluid" on this concept.)
> Most WM units have a grill on the patio.  I've only encountered shared grills in resort-common areas at the Wyndhams I've visited?
> ...



I missed the any day check in with Worldmark but you can get close with Wyndham their rule is generally 3 4 or 7 day reservations , fri sat or sun check in or check out. There are exceptions to this however. World mark also allows 1 and 2 day reservations (actually any length of stay) I particularly like the ability of long reservations 

Thanks. 
This question comes up often enough that I'm going to do a better job than I did to include your post and put it into my Dropbox. That way when someone asks I can just post the link


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## gemini1977 (Jul 17, 2016)

One thing I wasn't aware of that the folks at WinPointVIP just confirmed for me is that as a member of WinPointVIP you have access to all three Wyndham clubs.  They did clarify that the 50% discount is only available through Club Wyndham.

WinPointVIP continues to be the option that best checks all the boxes on the list of priorities I posted earlier.  The "lifetime" aspect of their product does continue to give me pause but on most other issues they are looking more and more appealing.


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## raygo123 (Jul 17, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> One of the reasons owners go through WinPointVIP is because it helps cover their MF.  So if the MF increases I would imagine that WinPointVIP would at least be pressured to increased their per 1k point fee to keep the benefit to owners the same.  I don't know if this is built into the he contract though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is no alignment between Wyndham and winpoint.  Wyndham would rather see them go away.  It is my belief that Wyndham will only make it more difficult for winpoint in the future.  They are not considered insiders, as mentioned.  Far from it.  It is Wyndham's own policies that are only keeping winpoint viable.
For example, if VIP benifits were by contract, rather than by account,. This would have a negative effect on thier business.  they could no longer have until the eleventh month to credit pool ALL thier non VIP accounts.  This would reduce their flexibility.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## gemini1977 (Jul 17, 2016)

@raygo123,

While I acknowledge that I have no inside knowledge for believing that WinPointVIP are "insiders" and that the interests of Wyndham owners, Wyndham the company, and WinPointVIP are aligned, I am following some reasoning for thinking that.  Maybe my reasoning is flawed and/or misinformed.  If so, please explain why, but below is why I believe it to be the case.

My understanding is that what makes WinPointVIP's business possible is that there is a good number of owners who have an exorbitant number of points.  So many that it's unlikely they would ever use them all on a regular basis.  In effect, those points are wasted BOTH for the owner and the company.  Wyndham will always get the fees and MF.  I doubt they care how the money that pays the fees and MF are obtained.  However, if an owner isn't using all their points, it means they are not vacationing at the resorts.  If they are not at the resorts it means they are not spending money at the resorts.  Wyndham wants as many people to frequent their properties as possible.  So wouldn't they prefer that they have "guests" staying and spending money at their resorts instead of empty rooms?  Maybe there is something about the system that I'm not understanding.

As far as WinPointVIP being insiders, I think we need to define the word "insiders".  For me, an acknowledged newbie, an insider is one who has worked and/or been an owner in these timeshare companies for a considerable amount of time.  WinPointVIP claims to have former industry professionals in their staff, they are in the business of helping owners rent their timeshares, and have overall 22 years of industry experience.  Even if these claims are slightly exaggerated, that makes them insiders in my book.  And all you need to do is read the reviews for WinPointVIP on this very forum to get a sense of their customer satisfaction.  So they are doing something right.

Now I have said that the biggest risk in a business like WinPointVIP is that their business model totally depends on the whims of another separate and much more powerful company.  Couple that with the fact they are selling a "lifetime" product that can't offer you any guarentees about that product even a couples years out, and it's fair to say there are some concerns.  However, that unpredictability is not inherent to WinPointVIP but to the timeshare business as a whole, as has been pointed out by others here.  So it is an aspect of this industry you just have to be willing to tolerate if you're going to participate.

If anyone has any knowledge as to what Wyndham's feelings about businesses like WinPointVIP are we would all love to hear them.


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## rhonda (Jul 17, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> My understanding is that what makes WinPointVIP's business possible is that there is a good number of owners who have an exorbitant number of points.  So many that it's unlikely they would ever use them all on a regular basis.  In effect, those points are wasted BOTH for the owner and the company.  Wyndham will always get the fees and MF.  I doubt they care how the money that pays the fees and MF are obtained.  *However, if an owner isn't using all their points, it means they are not vacationing at the resorts.  If they are not at the resorts it means they are not spending money at the resorts.  [Wyndham wants as many people to frequent their properties as possible.*  So wouldn't they prefer that they have "guests" staying and spending money at their resorts instead of empty rooms?  Maybe there is something about the system that I'm not understanding.


To the bolded section, I believe this is great logic for hotels but not for timeshares.  

Timeshares benefit by 'breakage' -- that is, when an owner has paid for the product (purchase), keeps up with dues (MF) but fails to ever _use_ the product.  Breakage can then be _rented_ out by the timeshare management for various purposes:
An additional revenue stream.  Think double dipping:  the time has already been covered by dues and now is also earning rent!
Sales Promotions.  Offer the breakage units as free or inexpensive "trail packages" to lure in fresh sales prospects.
Held aside for certain privileged owner categories.
Held aside for new owners.  Think of the special bonding magic that occurs when the sales staff can secure a coveted reservation for a brand new owner?  Woot -- no worries of rescission from that new owner!
Even if the unit sits unused, it saves the management company housekeeping and refurb (wear and tear).  So an empty unit isn't all bad for timeshare.  FWIW, unlike a hotel resort, few timeshare resorts have on property revenue streams (dining, shopping, profitable leisure activities) -- most timeshare activities are run very close to "at cost" given the ownership model.  Hopefully, a well managed resort returns breakage rental profits back to the owners offsetting maintenance fees.

Hotels and timeshare are, simply, different.


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## ronparise (Jul 17, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> @raygo123,
> 
> While I acknowledge that I have no inside knowledge for believing that WinPointVIP are "insiders" and that the interests of Wyndham owners, Wyndham the company, and WinPointVIP are aligned, I am following some reasoning for thinking that.  Maybe my reasoning is flawed and/or misinformed.  If so, please explain why, but below is why I believe it to be the case.
> 
> ...




I am one of those Wyndham owners that owns way more points than I can use myself and I own more than I can keep rented myself so I employ outfits like Winpointvip to make sure I don't have any unused points. 
Wyndham knows me and they know what I do. (I also own a fair number of Worldmark credits (I handle them myself)

I have attended the last 4 annual meetings of the Fairshare Trust and one quarterly Worldmark board meeting and 2 of the last 4 annual Club Wyndham Access meetings.  And over the years I have made it my business to meet personally with as many Wyndham executives as possible. I went so far as to chase Peter Hernandez into the men's room. I didn't have to pee but I stood in front of the urinal next to him to chat him up. He remembers me

So this past year I went with another purpose. I wanted to know what they thought about mega renting and more specifically what they thought of me. 

I spoke to the head of owner care, the head of all the call centers, the head of resort governance and the head of the title department. And two of the big bosses Mark Johnson and Geoff Richards

I came away with the impression that they hate what I'm doing but respect me personally. As one guy put it. I am transparent, open and honest and follow the rules

So I believe that Wyndham will continue to change the rules to make it more difficult to be a mega renter. Not because it hurts them directly but because folks complain when they paid big bucks for their points and they end up sharing a hot tub with one of my guests that paid me less than mf.  Wyndham wants happy owners, complaints can hurt sales

So Outfits like Winpointvip VIP and guys like me will always be adapting to the changes, but as long as we do I think we will be allowed to operate.  Wyndham seems to take the position that renting is a right of ownership. I'm betting on it. I have contracted to buy millions and millions of  points since the first of the year. Most of which I expect to make available to wynpointvip


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## gemini1977 (Jul 17, 2016)

@rhonda,

Your perspective is very enlightening.  Based on what you are saying, the interests of owners and the company are actually in opposition.

At a certain point, points stop adding value to an owner so he or she is forced to the rental market in an attempt to extract value from those points and cover the MF costs which are proportional to the quantity of points.

The company, however, has already gotten about as much value from the owner as they are going to get.  They've already plunked down the money for the timeshare/points after all.  And the MF are really just there to cover costs, which, if the owner isn't using their points, the management gets to pocket.  It also occures to me that services like WinPointVIP actually create a disincentive to potential owners to buy since they can enjoy the resort's benefits without the long term commitment and any profits go to WinPointsVIP instead of to Wyndham.


@ronparise,

When thinking about your observations of management and the above analysis, I wonder how long management will continue to be supportive of the current renting rights owners have.  Curtailing those rights would make the product less attractive and put it at a disadvantage when compared to the rights offered by competitors.  It's conceivable that the industry would collude to claw back those rights but they all still compete and want to distinguish themselves from competing products.

There's also the issue of what to do about current owners being that many of those rights are contractual(correct me if I'm wrong).  Further, those contracts will continue to be passed on or sold to new owners so, even if those rights are eliminated for new owners, contracts with the old rights will remain out in the open market at much more attractive prices.  So eliminating those rights will not happen overnight.  In the immediate future, management could, and very likely will, adjust those privelages they are not contractually obligated to honor in an attempt to make up some of what they are loosing.


There is much to consider for a newbie like me who hasn't put a stake down yet.  It's tough to decide which strategy is the winningest but this forum has been invaluable even if I don't decide to buy a timeshare.


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## rhonda (Jul 18, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> @rhonda,
> 
> Your perspective is very enlightening.  Based on what you are saying, the interests of owners and the company are actually in opposition.
> 
> ...


Yep.  

That said, it is breakage that feeds owner benefit programs such as Worldmark's Monday Madness, Inventory Specials and Bonus Time.  Each are tools created and supported by the Worldmark mgt team (mostly legacy, pre-Wyndham) to expose breakage to the community of WM owners, make it easy to rent (book using discounted cash reservations rather than using credits) and, yes, the resulting revenue feeds back into the Worldmark budget off-setting MF.  So, in this story, the owner-interest has been preserved.


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## learnalot (Jul 18, 2016)

ronparise said:


> And over the years I have made it my business to meet personally with as many Wyndham executives as possible. I went so far as to chase Peter Hernandez into the men's room. *I didn't have to pee but I stood in front of the urinal next to him to chat him up. He remembers me*



LOL.  Too funny, Ron.  I would say that is a sure bet!


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## MelissaI (Jul 19, 2016)

I am a WinPoint member. I bought my passport in March and I have made five reservations this year. I have been given the 50% savings on all five reservations and have been upgraded on all three completed reservations. Mike has been fantastic and always responds in a timely manner when I email. 

He has indicated to me that he is able to use ARP at some resorts and he will if he feels it is necessary to obtain that booking. 

I do not pay an additional fee for the guest certificates unless I exceed five bookings in a year, as I have the 250,000 point passport.

I use this passport as a supplement to my DVC membership.


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## gemini1977 (Jul 19, 2016)

Interesting Melissa...

You've been able to make 5 reservations, get the 50% discount on all, and 3 out of 5 upgrades with a 250k point lifetime membership, which, if I recall, costs $4500.  That seems like a pretty decent value.

Can you elaborate on what resorts these were, what type/level of accommodations, and during what time of the year?

Have you stayed at any of these resorts yet?  If so, how would you rate your experience and what VIP level benefits did you or did not get?


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## ronparise (Jul 19, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> Interesting Melissa...
> 
> You've been able to make 5 reservations, get the 50% discount on all, and 3 out of 5 upgrades with a 250k point lifetime membership, which, if I recall, costs $4500.  That seems like a pretty decent value.
> 
> ...



She does not get VIP benefits at the resort (ie no newspaper delivered to the door and no early check in. The VIP benefit she gets is the 50% discount and upgrades when available. And that's huge when it happens and as she said it happens a lot

It doesn't matter where she wants to go. Availability is no different than for winpointvthan it is for any owner. If it's there it's there.  Where winpoint differs from a lot of owners is that they make speculative bookings  so that their members can often get something at the last minute because winpoint plans ahead


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## MelissaI (Jul 19, 2016)

We stayed at Bonnet Creek at the last minute in April.  We were upgraded from a one bedroom deluxe to a one bedroom presidential.  The unit was beautiful.  In July, we stayed in a four bedroom presidential reserve unit at Smugglers' Notch in Vermont.  I believe we paid for 50% of the points cost of a three bedroom.  We had a friend stay at Bonnet Creek in July also.  They were upgraded from a two bedroom to a three bedroom.  We have another reservation for Veteran's weekend at BC and in October at Smuggs.

As stated, the only VIP benefits we get are the 50% point savings and upgrades, which are huge.  I'm not sure if access to the presidential reserve units are a benefit or not.  Also, at Smuggs, as non-Wyndham owners, we did not get a free Smuggs pass which included access to their multiple water parks and activities.  We only had access to the pool in our village for free, which was fine.  AFAIK this is one of the only locations with such a limitation to amenities.  Our room was stunning though...gas fireplace, heating on bathroom floor, Bose audio system, etc.

As you can see though, our 250,000 points have provided us lots of little getaways this year.  We like the fact that we have access to locations with no long term commitment.  We have been able to have extended family join us in Vermont and we had a great time.  We are planning future trips already.

I believe everyone who owns a passport gets access to a club Wyndham account and you can check availability yourself, you just can't book.  Although, sometimes at some locations, the owner has access to available units that a non VIP can't see online, I believe. I'm not 100% sure of that. 

I would not hesitate to recommend the service. I have actually considered increasing my points to provide more opportunities for my extended family.  We enjoy bringing them but they are not in the position to be able to acquire their own membership.


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## gemini1977 (Jul 19, 2016)

ronparise said:


> She does not get VIP benefits at the resort (ie no newspaper delivered to the door and no early check in. The VIP benefit she gets is the 50% discount and upgrades when available. And that's huge when it happens and as she said it happens a lot



So my sense is that non-owners don't get any of the on-site perks that VIP owners get.  The only one that I think I would miss is the free wifi.  But this still seems like a pretty good value.

Even if Wyndham somehow changed the rules such that owners could no longer use services like WinPointVIP five years from now, but I got the kinds of results that Melissa got during those 5 years, I still feel like it might be worthwhile.  Over the course of those 5 years, you are going to pay a lot more than the $4500 you pay for the 250k point membership if Melissa's experience is the norm.


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## MelissaI (Jul 19, 2016)

We got free wi-fi at Bonnet Creek. We did not at Smugglers' Notch, but the website indicated it wasn't free for anyone.  Wi-fi is not a VIP perk. It's a resort amenity.  Some resorts offer it for free and some do not.


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## gemini1977 (Jul 19, 2016)

MelissaI said:


> We got free wi-fi at Bonnet Creek. We did not at Smugglers' Notch, but the website indicated it wasn't free for anyone.  Wi-fi is not a VIP perk. It's a resort amenity.  Some resorts offer it for free and some do not.



Hmmmm...I thought I read somewhere free wifi was a Wyndham VIP owner perk.  In any event, if it were, it seems like non-owners would not get it.  But either way, the membership seems to be worthwhile based on your experience so far.


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## ronparise (Jul 19, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> Hmmmm...I thought I read somewhere free wifi was a Wyndham VIP owner perk.  In any event, if it were, it seems like non-owners would not get it.  But either way, the membership seems to be worthwhile based on your experience so far.



Wyndham is moving to a 2 tier system. Basic wifi, enough bandwidth for email and websurfing is free.  Video and audio streaming service will be a pay service 

VIP has nothing to do with wifi now or in the future


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## am1 (Jul 19, 2016)

ronparise said:


> Wyndham is moving to a 2 tier system. Basic wifi, enough bandwidth for email and websurfing is free.  Video and audio streaming service will be a pay service
> 
> VIP has nothing to do with wifi now or in the future



That can always change.


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## ronparise (Jul 19, 2016)

am1 said:


> That can always change.



sure it can change.  But my crystal ball doesnt work so well any more... Ill deal with what is


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## buckor (Jul 20, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> Hmmmm...I thought I read somewhere free wifi was a Wyndham VIP owner perk.  In any event, if it were, it seems like non-owners would not get it.  But either way, the membership seems to be worthwhile based on your experience so far.


We were at BC in May and were not charged for WiFi. We had several adults and teenagers/kids with tablets,  computer, phones,  etc, all with no problems. 

Fyi, I am not VIP...all my points are resale.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


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## ronparise (Jul 20, 2016)

raygo123 said:


> There is no alignment between Wyndham and winpoint.  Wyndham would rather see them go away.  It is my belief that Wyndham will only make it more difficult for winpoint in the future.  They are not considered insiders, as mentioned.  Far from it.  It is Wyndham's own policies that are only keeping winpoint viable.
> For example, if VIP benifits were by contract, rather than by account,. This would have a negative effect on thier business.  they could no longer have until the eleventh month to credit pool ALL thier non VIP accounts.  This would reduce their flexibility.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



The point ray is that wimpoint is not selling a 50% dscount.. what they are selling is the same chance at a 50% discount that a VIP owner would get.

So if wyndham takes away the discount  for contracts  not purchased direectly from wyndham,  yes you are correct, Wynpoint would loose the ability to make as many discounted reservations as they do now, but so would every VIP owner that has contracts in their accounts purchased on the secondary market

The point is wynpoint will still offer exactly what they do now; the possibility of a discount which is exactly what a VIP owner gets.  and wynpoint offers it at a fraction of what Wyndham charges, and in packages less than a million points and on a pay as you go basis.


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## raygo123 (Jul 20, 2016)

ronparise said:


> The point ray is that wimpoint is not selling a 50% dscount.. what they are selling is the same chance at a 50% discount that a VIP owner would get.
> 
> So if wyndham takes away the discount  for contracts  not purchased direectly from wyndham,  yes you are correct, Wynpoint would loose the ability to make as many discounted reservations as they do now, but so would every VIP owner that has contracts in their accounts purchased on the secondary market
> 
> The point is wynpoint will still offer exactly what they do now; the possibility of a discount which is exactly what a VIP owner gets.  and wynpoint offers it at a fraction of what Wyndham charges, and in packages less than a million points and on a pay as you go basis.


I understand that. And, how many of those cancel and rebook, are done with credit pool points, so more can be booked at a later date with current year points returned from the cancel rebook process?  Now, all those resale points have turned into solid bookings using the cancel rebook and originally ARP from current use points.  Today, those resale points are now doubled in value( via 50% discount).  Now, Wyndham changes the rules and only direct point can be used for cancel and rebook.( It is a VIP only program)  And resale points need to be pooled before use year begins.  The multiplier effect is gone.  Now only club access  points can take advantage of ARP, and only VIP points could cancel and rebook.  It dramatically reduces the number of point available to run the program.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Braindead (Jul 20, 2016)

I believe only VIP points purchased directly from Wyndham are to get any discount & free upgrades currently according to the rules. Wyndam just hasn't updated their software to inforce the current rules.


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## ronparise (Jul 20, 2016)

raygo123 said:


> I understand that. And, how many of those cancel and rebook, are done with credit pool points, so more can be booked at a later date with current year points returned from the cancel rebook process?  Now, all those resale points have turned into solid bookings using the cancel rebook and originally ARP from current use points.  Today, those resale points are now doubled in value( via 50% discount).  Now, Wyndham changes the rules and only direct point can be used for cancel and rebook.( It is a VIP only program)  And resale points need to be pooled before use year begins.  The multiplier effect is gone.  Now only club access  points can take advantage of ARP, and only VIP points could cancel and rebook.  It dramatically reduces the number of point available to run the program.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



All that you seem to be saying is that Wyndham my change the VIP program

And if they do it will be a whole lot less desirable to own a VIP account. And also a whole lot less desirable to buy access to a VIP account through winpoint

The question remains the same 

does it make sense to pay anything for a VIP account.?

If the answer is no then neither option makes sense. If yes than you have a decision to make. Buy your own account  from Wyndham or buy access to an account(s)  through winpoint VIP or perhaps find another way


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## Braindead (Jul 20, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I believe only VIP points purchased directly from Wyndham are to get any discount & free upgrades currently according to the rules. Wyndam just hasn't updated their software to inforce the current rules.



Ray what you are saying is already in effect today


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## gemini1977 (Jul 20, 2016)

I inquired with WinPointVIP and they told me:

"All of our points come from owners who bought from Wyndham and they are all platinum or presidential reserve"


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## Braindead (Jul 20, 2016)

You only get VIP with direct points but ounce you get to platinum you can add tens of millions resale points & get VIP treatment on all of your points as it stands today with Wyndhams software


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## raygo123 (Jul 20, 2016)

Yes, less desirable as an income stream.  The rest depends one ones goals.  It is not an either or.  It would  be a benefit to make these changes for those that are interested in going where they want when they want.  It is not a benifit in any way to double the number of points , and have no increase in where and when to go.
That is what is happening with winpoint.  I will not cry for them if they go away

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## raygo123 (Jul 20, 2016)

Braindead said:


> Ray what you are saying is already in effect today


Call Wyndham and ask if platinum member's can deposit resale points in the 11th month, then tell me it's in effect today.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Braindead (Jul 20, 2016)

I forgot VIP you can count PIC points program. You will never make money only purchasing direct & renting!!!! Mega renters have to ad resale to be profitable


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## Braindead (Jul 20, 2016)

Not eleventh month but upto 9 months


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## raygo123 (Jul 20, 2016)

And winpoint

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Braindead (Jul 20, 2016)

raygo123 said:


> Call Wyndham and ask if platinum member's can deposit resale points in the 11th month, then tell me it's in effect today.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



Nobody is going to pay $150.00 for points & rent them for $6.00 ounce a year & pay $5.00 of that in maintenance fees !!


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## raygo123 (Jul 20, 2016)

Nope, not worth the hassle.  Now take away resale benifits, and as you said, not worth it.  But, now its mf of $2.5 or less and a payback of $6.  Is winpoint paying the owners more when they use thier points more than once?  Or is all discounts passed on?  

Could you make money at $.025 per and rent at $6?  With cancel and rebook you could.

If you rented instead, what's your payback now?  No upfront cost, and you have, about $1000/ vacation to spend.  conservatively, that's the same as using winpoint.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Braindead (Jul 20, 2016)

If I understood an earlier post the math doesn't change. If your a Winpoint member you get the discount & if your allotment is 500k points you could end up using 1,000,000 worth of points if you get the 50 percent discount on all reservations. And any upgrades on top of that


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## raygo123 (Jul 20, 2016)

Braindead said:


> If I understood an earlier post the math doesn't change. If your a Winpoint member you get the discount & if your allotment is 500k points you could end up using 1,000,000 worth of points if you get the 50 percent discount on all reservations. And any upgrades on top of that


Doesn't change?  500,000 points cost you $3,000 if you get half back, that's 250,000.

Do you get your money back on the 250,000 or do you have to use them by end of year?

The reason winpoint has that many points is the owners could not use them, or a renter.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## tschwa2 (Jul 20, 2016)

raygo123 said:


> Doesn't change?  500,000 points cost you $3,000 if you get half back, that's 250,000.
> 
> Do you get your money back on the 250,000 or do you have to use them by end of year?
> 
> ...



What Braindead is  saying is a Winpoint member could end up with reservations that would have taken a non VIP 1,000,000 points to book but they got that reservation at the 50% discount and paid $6 times 500 for those reservations for that year.  No one got any money back and winpoint managed the extra points doling them out to other winpoint members before the end of the year.


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## ronparise (Jul 20, 2016)

raygo123 said:


> Yes, less desirable as an income stream.  The rest depends one ones goals.  It is not an either or.  It would  be a benefit to make these changes for those that are interested in going where they want when they want.  It is not a benifit in any way to double the number of points , and have no increase in where and when to go.
> That is what is happening with winpoint.  I will not cry for them if they go away
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



I wouldn't cry for them any more than you might have cried for the buggy manufacturers when Henry ford introduces the model t


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## ronparise (Jul 20, 2016)

raygo123 said:


> Nope, not worth the hassle.  Now take away resale benifits, and as you said, not worth it.  But, now its mf of $2.5 or less and a payback of $6.  Is winpoint paying the owners more when they use thier points more than once?  Or is all discounts passed on?
> 
> Could you make money at $.025 per and rent at $6?  With cancel and rebook you could.
> 
> ...



No Ray it's not mf of 2.5 vs a charge of 6.00  wynpointvip pays in the neighborhood of 6 and their customers pay 6 for the points  the use.
At the first of the year I turn my account over to wynpointvip with x number of points and they pay me $6/1000 times x. 

 I really don't understand your interest in how much money winpoint makes. That's not the question. The question is does it make sense for anyone to buy access to Wyndham resorts from wynpointvip.   All the info to make such a decision has been presented here from both sides of winpoint.... Their customers and their suppliers (me)


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## Braindead (Jul 20, 2016)

MelissaI said:


> We stayed at Bonnet Creek at the last minute in April.  We were upgraded from a one bedroom deluxe to a one bedroom presidential.  The unit was beautiful.  In July, we stayed in a four bedroom presidential reserve unit at Smugglers' Notch in Vermont.  I believe we paid for 50% of the points cost of a three bedroom.  We had a friend stay at Bonnet Creek in July also.  They were upgraded from a two bedroom to a three bedroom.  We have another reservation for Veteran's weekend at BC and in October at Smuggs.
> 
> As stated, the only VIP benefits we get are the 50% point savings and upgrades, which are huge.  I'm not sure if access to the presidential reserve units are a benefit or not.  Also, at Smuggs, as non-Wyndham owners, we did not get a free Smuggs pass which included access to their multiple water parks and activities.  We only had access to the pool in our village for free, which was fine.  AFAIK this is one of the only locations with such a limitation to amenities.  Our room was stunning though...gas fireplace, heating on bathroom floor, Bose audio system, etc.
> 
> ...


You only pay for the points you use . If you get 50 percent discount you only pay based on the discount point total. The math really doesn't change.


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## Braindead (Jul 20, 2016)

I hope Ron is in good health!! But he is not doing something that will take 150 years to get his money back with no return on investment !!!!!


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## ronparise (Jul 20, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> I inquired with WinPointVIP and they told me:
> 
> "All of our points come from owners who bought from Wyndham and they are all platinum or presidential reserve"



That's probably true but he didn't say all the points were purchased from Wyndham


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## Braindead (Jul 20, 2016)

raygo123 said:


> Call Wyndham and ask if platinum member's can deposit resale points in the 11th month, then tell me it's in effect today.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



Ron I thought raygo123 was saying you guys don't get VIP benefits on resale points


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## raygo123 (Jul 20, 2016)

Braindead said:


> Ron I thought raygo123 was saying you guys don't get VIP benefits on resale points


Not at all.  Quite the opposite.  I'm saying it is happening now.  I stand corrected, 9 months, right now VIP benifits like credit pooling is across member number, not by contract.  It's like the fact they are resale is invisible to Wyndham.  Right now.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## ronparise (Jul 20, 2016)

raygo123 said:


> Not at all.  Quite the opposite.  I'm saying it is happening now.  I stand corrected, 9 months, right now VIP benifits like credit pooling is across member number, not by contract.  It's like the fact they are resale is invisible to Wyndham.  Right now.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



yes thats true,  and the discounts could go away at any time... If the discount is why you are buying and you insist on a guarantee... this is not for you

On the other hand if you are looking for vacations at wyndham timeshares, with no obligation for ongoing maintenance fees, and the possibility of discounts... maybe this works


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## gemini1977 (Jul 20, 2016)

@ronparise,

Do you have any sense as to how much of WinPointVIP's inventory is made up of points obtained through resale...25%, 50%, 90%?

Also, are we saying that Wyndham's honoring of resale market acquired points for the qualifying of VIP benefits is NOT contractual but completely at Wyndham's discretion?


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## Braindead (Jul 20, 2016)

Wyndhams directory states that resale points do NOT get VIP treatment even though they currently do because their software allows it


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## ronparise (Jul 20, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> @ronparise,
> 
> Do you have any sense as to how much of WinPointVIP's inventory is made up of points obtained through resale...25%, 50%, 90%?
> 
> Also, are we saying that Wyndham's honoring of resale market acquired points for the qualifying of VIP benefits is NOT contractual but completely at Wyndham's discretion?



I have no idea 

I could tell you what I give them but I won't. Not because it's some deep dark secret but because my relationship with winpoint is not typical and I don't know what is.


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## am1 (Jul 20, 2016)

My guess is most is retail.  That is why they have guest confirmations to give away.  Typical owner probably paid way too much for something they do not understand and renting their points is the only way they get used and a way to pay the fees.  Owners with mostly retail points are more likely to need someone else to do the renting for them as it is not something they could succesfully do themselves.  

But I have for sure data on what the makeup of their supply is.


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## ronparise (Jul 20, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> @ronparise,
> 
> Do you have any sense as to how much of WinPointVIP's inventory is made up of points obtained through resale...25%, 50%, 90%?
> 
> Also, are we saying that Wyndham's honoring of resale market acquired points for the qualifying of VIP benefits is NOT contractual but completely at Wyndham's discretion?



VIP benefits are entirely at wyndhams discretion whether the points were purchased from Wyndham or not. There is no VIP contract


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## gemini1977 (Jul 20, 2016)

@ronparise,

Well they mentioned to me that they had 5x as many points from owners as they've sold through their passport product.  I'm not sure how accurate that figure is but that would imply that just 20% of their inventory covers their passport customers.

If the owners they manage points for have points in the millions then it might not be too far from the truth.


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## Braindead (Jul 20, 2016)

I still believe Wyndham likes mega renters. They are excellent owners . They pay their maintenance fees on time . Their contracts are paid for or little debt per point. Only one person to deal with all their reservations. A steady flow of potential clients. If I'm wrong why don't they simply update their software to stop VIP treatment of resale points.


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## gemini1977 (Jul 20, 2016)

@Braindead,

You question is a valid one.  However, why would a potential Wyndham customer go directly through Wyndham when they could get pretty much the same product from WinPointVIP without the long term commitment and do so at a much lower price than they would have to pay to get the VIP benefits?  I know for me, unless their is something significant I am missing, I would much rather go through WinPointVIP.  I see no compelling reason to plunk down to own points and incur the annual obligation to pay MF.

Now that doesn't mean there aren't other benefits to Wyndham that I'm not seeing.  As you say, they can turn off the spigots any time they want.  So there must be something compelling them not to.


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## Braindead (Jul 20, 2016)

Couldn't agree more as long as Wyndham doesn't update their software & Winpoint stays in business . Winpoint is very attractive if you find it first as a customer. I would go with Winpoint if I didn't already own. Just like finding this site in time to rescind or not to purchase from Wyndham I'm one of those & only own resale.


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## Braindead (Jul 20, 2016)

I have over 2 million points 100 percent resale. I have learned so much & saved over $200,000.00 from big owners on this site . Thanks to Ron- Big Rob & Linda & others!!!!!! Thank you for not being selfish & sharing your knowledge !!!!!!


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## raygo123 (Jul 20, 2016)

ronparise said:


> yes thats true,  and the discounts could go away at any time... If the discount is why you are buying and you insist on a guarantee... this is not for you
> 
> On the other hand if you are looking for vacations at wyndham timeshares, with no obligation for ongoing maintenance fees, and the possibility of discounts... maybe this works


The carriage makers became Fisher Body.

As things go today,  I agree, it is a good value.  
And your right there are no guarantees in life.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## am1 (Jul 21, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I have over 2 million points 100 percent resale. I have learned so much & saved over $200,000.00 from big owners on this site . Thanks to Ron- Big Rob & Linda & others!!!!!! Thank you for not being selfish & sharing your knowledge !!!!!!



That is great but remember there is a lot that is not shared.  One can only really learn by using.


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## ronparise (Jul 21, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I still believe Wyndham likes mega renters. They are excellent owners . They pay their maintenance fees on time . Their contracts are paid for or little debt per point. Only one person to deal with all their reservations. A steady flow of potential clients. If I'm wrong why don't they simply update their software to stop VIP treatment of resale points.



no they dont... Ive talked to wyndham people in upper management and we are barely tolerated. 
  They dont like what we do with their system


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## ronparise (Jul 21, 2016)

am1 said:


> That is great but remember there is a lot that is not shared.  One can only really learn by using.



I have no secrets, but I will say that when I tell people what I do and how I do it they usually dont understand.... and what Im doing today is not what I did two years ago and its not what Ill be doing two years from now... Im sure.  As Wyndham changes the music I have to change the dance I do

As you say you can only learn by doing.


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## ronparise (Jul 21, 2016)

raygo123 said:


> The carriage makers became Fisher Body.
> 
> As things go today,  I agree, it is a good value.
> And your right there are no guarantees in life.
> ...



exactly "adapt or die"


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## ronparise (Jul 21, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> @ronparise,
> 
> Well they mentioned to me that they had 5x as many points from owners as they've sold through their passport product.  I'm not sure how accurate that figure is but that would imply that just 20% of their inventory covers their passport customers.
> 
> If the owners they manage points for have points in the millions then it might not be too far from the truth.



I believe that they also do rentals... all I really know is Wynpoint has never missed a payment (to me)


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## gemini1977 (Jul 21, 2016)

@ronparise,

WinPointVIP did mention to me that they are a "mega renter" and that they make most of their profit from that part of the business.


As for why Wyndham does what they do despite it seeming contrary to their interests, one thing they always have to keep top of mind is competing products.  Part of the appeal of ownership is the privelages and rights that come with that ownership.  If the rules are changed to so that less and less of your owner privelages can be passed on to resale buyers then it makes owning that product less attractive.  Wyndham has to maintain a delicate balance.


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## paxsarah (Jul 21, 2016)

ronparise said:


> As Wyndham changes the music I have to change the dance I do


I love this turn of phrase.


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## Slinger (Jul 21, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I have over 2 million points 100 percent resale. I have learned so much & saved over $200,000.00 from big owners on this site . Thanks to Ron- Big Rob & Linda & others!!!!!! Thank you for not being selfish & sharing your knowledge !!!!!!



I concur and couldn't agree more! 

This site and knowledge base has saved me MUCHO money and allowed us to take some wonderful vacations. :whoopie:


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## bnoble (Jul 21, 2016)

Braindead said:


> Wyndhams directory states that resale points do NOT get VIP treatment


Where does it say this?


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## Braindead (Jul 21, 2016)

Page 361 right hand side . First page on VIP. I would post but don't know how


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## Braindead (Jul 21, 2016)

Corrected page 345 I think. It states - Eligible points are those purchased from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or authorized affiliate. Points from resale contracts do not count towards VIP status and ARE NOT ELIGIBLE FOR VIP BENEFITS


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## gemini1977 (Jul 21, 2016)

Braindead said:


> You only get VIP with direct points but ounce you get to platinum you can add tens of millions resale points & get VIP treatment on all of your points as it stands today with Wyndhams software



Were you pointing out an exception to this rule or is it just a rule they don't enforce?


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## buckor (Jul 21, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I have over 2 million points 100 percent resale. I have learned so much & saved over $200,000.00 from big owners on this site . Thanks to Ron- Big Rob & Linda & others!!!!!! Thank you for not being selfish & sharing your knowledge !!!!!!


Exactly! I have 1.1 million points, purchased resale, that have cost me less than $.01/point. Also, by being learning from others on this board, my blended MF is $4.50/1k points. 

I, too, thank Ron, Big Rob, Linda, Scott, Jerry, and others who have contributed to what I currently know about Wyndham.

I am enjoying my vacations and that is what matters to me!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


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## raygo123 (Jul 21, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> Were you pointing out an exception to this rule or is it just a rule they don't enforce?


It's a rule they don't enforcement, or can't.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## johnluyando (Jul 25, 2016)

Getting caught up on my TUG reading.  I've been preoccupied with the boat for the past month or so.  I noticed at the beginning of this thread that there was a response from Winpoint in which it states that the membership is transferable.  I have yet to see a membership on the "secondary" market. Perhaps this speaks of how well the program is run.  I would be interested to learn if someone has actually sold there membership.  This option reduces the risk of owning Winpoint significantly in my mind.


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## gemini1977 (Jul 26, 2016)

@johnluyando,

I believe WinPointVIP's passport product has not been around all that long.  Additionally, since membership only requires an initial upfront payment, without ANY other financial obligation ever, it isn't that surprising that you would not find it being sold on resale.

I agree that this could be a sign of the value owners see in the product.  It would be interesting to see what the resale market would bid for this product versus a comparable one purchased directly from Wyndham.

It would be an interesting excersize considering this product consists mostly of points already obtained through resale.  You might find that the very same points are valued more when packaged in this product.


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## Braindead (Jul 26, 2016)

I don't know how you would list WinpointVIP. What are you selling ?


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## Braindead (Jul 26, 2016)

CWA is a hundred times more likely to stick around in my opinion !


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## Braindead (Jul 26, 2016)

If Wyndham stops giving VIP benefits to resale points Winpoint will be gone in my opinion ! I don't know the terms of the contract between owners & Winpoint . But if can simply stop access to their accounts Winpoint is done


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## gemini1977 (Jul 26, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I don't know how you would list WinpointVIP. What are you selling ?



You would be selling the WinPointVIP membership, its privelages are transferable.  WinPointVIP has eluded to the likelihood that their prices could increase in the not too distant future.  When this happens, it might increase the likelihood that those memberships might begin to appear on the resale market at a discount.  There's not much of a reason to sell them now since you would likely have to sell it at a loss.  And holding on to it indefinitely doesn't cost you anything extra since there are no MF fees or taxes.


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## raygo123 (Jul 26, 2016)

Man what will you do with ALL that money?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Braindead (Jul 26, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> You would be selling the WinPointVIP membership, its privelages are transferable.  WinPointVIP has eluded to the likelihood that their prices could increase in the not too distant future.  When this happens, it might increase the likelihood that those memberships might begin to appear on the resale market at a discount.  There's not much of a reason to sell them now since you would likely have to sell it at a loss.  And holding on to it indefinitely doesn't cost you anything extra since there are no MF fees or taxes.



You may want to set the cup down & stop drinking the coolaid.


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## gemini1977 (Jul 26, 2016)

Braindead said:


> You may want to set the cup down & stop drinking the coolaid.



I'm merely describing the siituation as I see it.  If you have any information/thoughts/analysis that provides addtional insight please feel free to provide it.  I'm sure the community would appreciate something of substance.


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## Braindead (Jul 26, 2016)

I'm not saying it's a bad product. But I don't think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread either. There is a risk with any investment but you almost sound like a giddy new owner with aWyndham direct purchase. I hope Winpoint works great for all their members just understand you could wake up tomorrow & it's gone!!


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## Braindead (Jul 26, 2016)

Big brother (Wyndham) would like to get rid of little brother(Winpoint)


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## Braindead (Jul 26, 2016)

If your an owner of a membership in WinpointVIP what is your recourse if you call in someday & are told there are no points available at this time ?


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## CO skier (Jul 27, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I still believe Wyndham likes mega renters. They are excellent owners . They pay their maintenance fees on time . Their contracts are paid for or little debt per point. Only one person to deal with all their reservations. A steady flow of potential clients. If I'm wrong why don't they simply update their software to stop VIP treatment of resale points.


You are apparently wrong about Wyndham's opinion of megarenters.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1734698&postcount=48

Notice the use of the word "unfairly".

But you make a good point about why don't they back up that opinion with action regarding a flagrant loophole?


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## raygo123 (Jul 27, 2016)

Maybe they can't at this point in time.  Last February I was in St Thomas and I brought up winpoint.  

Believe me, they did not have anything nice to say about him. 
I think that at this point it is more an inability (ie computer system) to stop giving ANY VIP owners VIP benifits on resale, with the exception of ARP.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Braindead (Jul 27, 2016)

gemini1977 said:


> You would be selling the WinPointVIP membership, its privelages are transferable.  WinPointVIP has eluded to the likelihood that their prices could increase in the not too distant future.  When this happens, it might increase the likelihood that those memberships might begin to appear on the resale market at a discount.  There's not much of a reason to sell them now since you would likely have to sell it at a loss.  And holding on to it indefinitely doesn't cost you anything extra since there are no MF fees or taxes.



The only privilege you have is access to someone else's account that could stop any day. You own nothing. I'm sure I don't have any ideas that Wyndham hasn't thought of but here are few more. Reduce the number of free guest reservations. Guest reservations don't qualify for free upgrades & point discounts. That would have a huge impact if Wyndham wants to protect the owners.


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## Braindead (Jul 27, 2016)

Wouldn't be that hard to stop VIP treatment of guest reservations . Simply treat guest reservations like ARP & make you call in so reps don't give any upgrades or point discounts.


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## am1 (Jul 27, 2016)

Braindead said:


> Wouldn't be that hard to stop VIP treatment of guest reservations . Simply treat guest reservations like ARP & make you call in so reps don't give any upgrades or point discounts.



If the reservation is already booked and upgraded then the guest is added?


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## raygo123 (Jul 27, 2016)

Does anyone know if under the discount window, resale points, or pooled points could be used to cancel and rebook?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Braindead (Jul 27, 2016)

am1 said:


> If the reservation is already booked and upgraded then the guest is added?



If you have to call in to add the guest the rep could remove any discount & upgrade. If you don't have enough points available when adding the guest the reservation gets cancelled or remains in the owners name


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## Braindead (Jul 27, 2016)

If no availability of origanal reservation a guest can't be added


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## Braindead (Jul 27, 2016)

raygo123 said:


> Does anyone know if under the discount window, resale points, or pooled points could be used to cancel and rebook?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



You can right now. If I understand other posts from renters they credit pool a large amount of their points.


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## Braindead (Jul 27, 2016)

raygo123 said:


> Does anyone know if under the discount window, resale points, or pooled points could be used to cancel and rebook?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



A while back Ron was giving away contracts with no available points for 2-3 years.


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## raygo123 (Jul 27, 2016)

Braindead said:


> If you have to call in to add the guest the rep could remove any discount & upgrade. If you don't have enough points available when adding the guest the reservation gets cancelled or remains in the owners name


That will not work.  Go Green!  If Wyndham could eliminate all calls to the center they would.  It has to be by contract not account number.  If done right only current year VIP contracts could cancel and rebook.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Braindead (Jul 27, 2016)

raygo123 said:


> That will not work.  Go Green!  If Wyndham could eliminate all calls to the center they would.  It has to be by contract not account number.  If done right only current year VIP contracts could cancel and rebook.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



You nailed it couldn't agree more !!!!


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## am1 (Jul 27, 2016)

Braindead said:


> If you have to call in to add the guest the rep could remove any discount & upgrade. If you don't have enough points available when adding the guest the reservation gets cancelled or remains in the owners name



I doubt Wyndham could program that.  Maybe some things could be done but this is just grasping at straws.


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## Braindead (Jul 27, 2016)

I wouldn't think it would be that hard to not allow guest to be added to a reservation in the last 60 days


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## am1 (Jul 27, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I wouldn't think it would be that hard to not allow guest to be added to a reservation in the last 60 days



And if someone other then the owner is needs to check in before the owner?  It is also an owners right to be able to add a guest name to a reservation.  That has been and still is a selling point.

I could list a few dozen more reasons on why your thought would not work. Thankfully regardless of what one person wants it will not happen.


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## Braindead (Jul 27, 2016)

am1 said:


> And if someone other then the owner is needs to check in before the owner?  It is also an owners right to be able to add a guest name to a reservation.  That has been and still is a selling point.
> 
> I could list a few dozen more reasons on why your thought would not work. Thankfully regardless of what one person wants it will not happen.



Wyndham could take that right away at anytime but don't lose sleep over it. I don't think they will take it away either. The sales weasels would still use it as a sales pitch they just wouldn't tell you you can't do it in the last 60 days!!!


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## raygo123 (Jul 27, 2016)

You have to remember that VIP program is a sperate entity, which is a layer of the CWA trust.  While the right to a guest certificate has to do with all of Wyndham, from select to presidential, deeded or points.  It is a property right.  As am 1 has said, it will not happen.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Braindead (Jul 27, 2016)

If you guys believe that then Wyndham shouldn't be able to give different amounts of free guest certificats. Guest certificats would be based on points like reservations & housekeeping credits if it's a right of ownership


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## Braindead (Jul 27, 2016)

I have 5 ownerships over 2 million points & get 1 free guest certificate !!! Please advise me what ownerships rights I have regarding guest!


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## Bigrob (Jul 27, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I have 5 ownerships over 2 million points & get 1 free guest certificate !!! Please advise me what ownerships rights I have regarding guest!



Same rights as anyone else. You can add a guest confirmation if another (non-owner) is arriving first or will not be accompanied by you. How many of these you get "free" versus paying $99 or $129 for doesn't change the right of being able to enable a non-owner to utilize the reservation by placing a guest confirmation on the reservation.

Those that do rentals already pay an exorbitant amount for guest confirmation fees, as they have many more "paid for" guest confirmations as they do free ones. It would be interesting to trace the "guest confirmation" fees to see how those funds are applied... I believe I was told that they are applied toward Club Wyndham Program costs, and therefore reduce the overall CWP burden that would otherwise be borne by all owners. (it clearly does not create an incremental $99 or $129 "cost" to add a guest confirmation within the system).


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## Braindead (Jul 27, 2016)

I'm not an attorney but I don't think Wyndham can change or strip the actual rights of ownership. If guest certificats are rights of ownership they shouldn't be able to decide who pays & how much. Wyndham is treating guest certificats as a VIP benefit not a right of ownership.


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## Braindead (Jul 27, 2016)

Right of ownership would be a minamum of 1 free guest certificate per ownership contract in my humble opinion


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## ronparise (Jul 28, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I'm not an attorney but I don't think Wyndham can change or strip the actual rights of ownership. If guest certificats are rights of ownership they shouldn't be able to decide who pays & how much. Wyndham is treating guest certificats as a VIP benefit not a right of ownership.



Guest certs are not a VIP benefit any owner can do as many reservations as they want for guests (paying or not)

Here's the thing about ownership.  Wyndhan very much respects ownership rights but most of the reservations we make are not at our home resorts and when we use our points deeded at one resort to make reservations at another resort we have given up our ownership rights
Witness the new nightly limit rule; the limit is 10 reservations at any one time at one resort. But ARP reservations are exempt.  I can make as many arp reservations as I have points to support. Why is that? Why the exception?  It's because 
(I think) when you make an ARP reservation you make it at your home resort: a resort you own. And you have rights there.   

All the rule changes have been done with one goal in mind and that's to curtail renting.   And there will be more. I have no doubt that the cancel and rebook game will end  by either limiting the discounts to just points purchased from Wyndham or by instituting a wait list. Or both

Which is why from the beginning my approach to renting hasn't been dependent on discounts to be profitable

Winpoint will be fine too. I have no doubt. Remember he has two selling points. One is the possibility of discounts but the main selling point is that you enjoy all the benefits of Wyndham timeshares without the ongoing commitment of maintenance fees


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## am1 (Jul 28, 2016)

ronparise said:


> Winpoint will be fine too. I have no doubt. Remember he has two selling points. One is the possibility of discounts but the main selling point is that you enjoy all the benefits of Wyndham timeshares without the ongoing commitment of maintenance fees



The VIP discount without a huge purchase price is what makes it work.  Take away the discounts and upgrades and it is not worth buying.


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## ronparise (Jul 28, 2016)

am1 said:


> The VIP discount without a huge purchase price is what makes it work.  Take away the discounts and upgrades and it is not worth buying.



no its not worth buying,without the discounts,  If that happens, He will probably have to reduce his price or give away "memberships" and ultimately be no different than you and me... just another mega renter, but he wont have to close up shop and he will still be able to provide vacation accommodations to his members. 

People are still buying Wyndham on the secondary market paying upwards of a penny a point and  committing to annual fees (whether they use the points or not) With WinPoint they pay a one time fee that is probably less than buying, and have access to the same vacations on a pay as you go basis  

I would guess that if (when) the discounts go away he will morph into a straight up rental business, and make his money on the rentals rather than the up front fee. 

I would worry more about your business and mine if the discounts go away than Winpoints


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## jebloomquist (Jul 28, 2016)

I see that a lot has been written by non-VIP members about “rights” that are granted to and exercised by VIP members. Much seems to be formulated by persons who have minimal knowledge of how the full Club Wyndham Plus membership functions, and their naïveté shows.

First, everyone has the right to buy either developer or resale Club Wyndham Plus points. Once a buyer chooses a developer purchase, Wyndham has the right to grant additional perks. Wyndham also has the right to not allow these perks to transfer to a new buyer who chooses a resale purchase. (My biggest gripe here is that Wyndham does not nor is not required to convey this information to the buyer during a sales pitch.)

Secondly, owners of unconverted weeks contracts have the right to freely guest someone. Alternatively, once owners agree to annually submit their contract(s) to Wyndham in exchange for points in order to participate as members of the Club Wyndham Plus program, they contractually agree to a new set of rules in order to use this points membership. Here, each account is allocated one guest certificate, regardless of the number of contracts contained within that Club Wyndham Plus account. At this point, Wyndham has the right, and does exercise it, to grant complimentary guest certificates based solely on the millions of developer points governed in the account, which also governs the VIP levels. (See page 346 in the 2014-2015 directory.) Additional guest certificates are granted at $99 online and $129 call-in per reservation to all members.

Now, here are my comments on what others have written.



Braindead said:


> If Wyndham stops giving VIP benefits to resale points Winpoint will be gone in my opinion ! I don't know the terms of the contract between owners & Winpoint . But if can simply stop access to their accounts Winpoint is done



It is true that there is nothing in the Club Wyndham Plus agreement that guarantees, resale points shall get the same VIP benefits that the developer points receive in an account. However, it has been common practice for several years. Changing this may upset many VIP members. In as much as this has been common practice for many years, any restriction could open Wyndham to a law suit from its VIP members. Wyndham might lose such a suit, or at least see a massive sell-off of these resale points. If there is no profit to be made by owning resale points, in many cases, why own millions of them? This might create a resale market sellers’ bulge even greater than that created starting in 2008. This for a time would stifle developer sales, a situation Wyndham does not want.

If you think about it, restricting access to an account is currently done with an ID and a password. If I choose, I can freely give that information to anyone I choose. Determining and then restricting who uses that information, in my mind would be very difficult. The same would hold for any other locks put on the system.



raygo123 said:


> Maybe they can't at this point in time.  Last February I was in St Thomas and I brought up winpoint.
> 
> Believe me, they did not have anything nice to say about him.
> I think that at this point it is more an inability (ie computer system) to stop giving ANY VIP owners VIP benefits on resale, with the exception of ARP.



What is it that Tuggers say, “If their lips…” Of course the Wyndham sales persons would have nothing good to say about WinpointVIP. It competes directly with what they are commissioned to do. However, that may not be how Wyndham corporate feels about it. A steady stream of maintenance dollars in important. A sizable amount of these dollars currently received from VIP points contributors to WinpointVIP could vanish.



Braindead said:


> If you have to call in to add the guest the rep could remove any discount & upgrade. If you don't have enough points available when adding the guest the reservation gets cancelled or remains in the owners name



You can’t make the reservation if you don’t have enough points. Oh, you mean enough points to make the reservation, assuming no discount or upgrade. I’m sure that during a sales presentation the Wyndham sales persons would love to explain just how that is a benefit to VIP ownership. “You can get a discount and upgrade, but the real benefit is to watch it go away.”



Braindead said:


> I wouldn't think it would be that hard to not allow guest to be added to a reservation in the last 60 days



Gee, in other words, you don’t want me to guest one of my relatives within 60 days of check-in. My relatives have a hard time making up their minds. Your suggestion just might make my points useless within 60 days. Great idea Braindead.



Braindead said:


> If you guys believe that then Wyndham shouldn't be able to give different amounts of free guest certificates. Guest certificates would be based on points like reservations & housekeeping credits if it's a right of ownership



Guesting is a right of weeks ownership. Guest certificates are not a right of weeks ownership. The right of guesting is forfeited when accepting membership in Club Wyndham Plus. It is replaced with guest certificates as a benefit of membership, and the amount depends upon the level of membership and the amount of developer points in an account.

I certainly welcome any comments on my thoughts. Or is this thread already way too long?

Jim


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## Braindead (Jul 28, 2016)

I knew you all of you would beat me up on guest certs! But I don't think it's right that I have to pay for my ownership rights regarding guest . Based on my points you get 30 free I get 1. Let's face it a lot of what Wyndham does is in muddy waters legally


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## am1 (Jul 28, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I knew you all of you would beat me up on guest certs! But I don't think it's right that I have to pay for my ownership rights regarding guest . Based on my points you get 30 free I get 1. Let's face it a lot of what Wyndham does is in muddy waters legally



A lot is muddy but those free guest confirmations are "paid" for by Wyndham.  I spend 5 figures on guest confirmations a year above what I get allocated each year.


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## Braindead (Jul 28, 2016)

I can't believe it cost Wyndham $5.00 for me to put a guest on a reservation . I'm already paying for everything else through maintenance fees. All other costs are the same no matter who is staying in the unit


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## ronparise (Jul 28, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I knew you all of you would beat me up on guest certs! But I don't think it's right that I have to pay for my ownership rights regarding guest . Based on my points you get 30 free I get 1. Let's face it a lot of what Wyndham does is in muddy waters legally



exceed 2,000,000 points and we get 45

 I have 5 small accounts. I get 150 of them

but to call them free is a little off the mark. These VIP eligible points cost a bundle .. the included guest certs are paid for, but paid by the sales dept rather than me. It was an incentive to buy developer points


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## ronparise (Jul 28, 2016)

Braindead said:


> I can't believe it cost Wyndham $5.00 for me to put a guest on a reservation . I'm already paying for everything else through maintenance fees. All other costs are the same no matter who is staying in the unit




It doesnt cost anything, the fee is meant to reduce the profits of megarenters. and discourage  renting.  It didnt work as AM1 points out... but they tried

That it costs you guys too is collateral damage

the fact is that there are very few people that the guest fee hurts.. The average account size is under 300000 points.  One guest cert is more than enough for these owners. 

and you can get around the limitations.. buy another contract and put several names on the deed. This will increase the number of owners that dont need a guest confirmation. or buy another contract in another name and have another member number.


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## raygo123 (Jul 28, 2016)

Mr jebloomquest, I don't think anything will vanish.  The VIP contributors will simply go back to doing what they did before winpoint.  Or, sell, or give back to Wyndham.
Either way, as water seeks it's own level, the glut will also pass.  In my opinion, only those with millions of points will find it difficult to cope, but will adapt as Ron has pointed out. 
I'm sure that Wyndham will absorb all either to re-sale as developer points, or expand their own rental program.

I still believe that winpoint's  disappearance would be a temporary discomfort for a permanent improvement  in Wyndham's eyes. As said, winpoint will adapt, and adapt so it seems, by some, it will remain. 

It, seems to be, in my opinion, it's an argument between the bean counters, and marketing.  The deciding factor is management and the "five year plan.  Small bites at mega renters, or an all out attack.  Personally, being VIP, other than having to get up early and ready with my first choices ready at 8am 13 months in advance, I will not see much of a change no matter what Wyndham does.  In fact, Wyndham itself will become the new winpoint.

It will be that owner with 77K to 154K CWA, which is also a main target,in my opinion, for the Wyndham sales that would be most grateful.  The move in August was merely a warning shot, with little to no effect.  
No matter what happens, there will always be a mega renter and the largest will be Wyndham.  The best case would be that the prices of rentals will increase as Wyndham sets the high end of the spectrum.



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## bnoble (Jul 28, 2016)

jebloomquist said:


> It is true that there is nothing in the Club Wyndham Plus agreement that guarantees, resale points shall get the same VIP benefits that the developer points receive in an account. However, it has been common practice for several years. Changing this may upset many VIP members. In as much as this has been common practice for many years, any restriction could open Wyndham to a law suit from its VIP members. Wyndham might lose such a suit, or at least see a massive sell-off of these resale points. If there is no profit to be made by owning resale points, in many cases, why own millions of them? This might create a resale market sellers’ bulge even greater than that created starting in 2008. This for a time would stifle developer sales, a situation Wyndham does not want.



A couple of thoughts on this.

If I were a betting man, I would bet that Wyndham would easily win that lawsuit. The VIP perks are solely at their discretion, and they can manage them however they want. After all, they've already changed things that had been "common practice for several years," been sued for it, and so far have been unscathed.

If that change were to occur, I agree that any owner who depended on VIP discounts/upgrades being applied to resale points would sell some or all of their holdings---and there are enough such people out there that it might well have an impact on the resale market. However, I disagree that any such bulges would impact the retail market at all. It's already the case that Wyndham resales go for a dime on the dollar or less, yet Wyndham is still easily able to sell retail.  The recently completed second quarter saw gross sales of $518M (!) No one is going to pass on a 90% savings, but suddenly bite if the savings goes up to 95%.

http://investor.wyndhamworldwide.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=200690&p=irol-newsarticle&ID=2188716

Any drop in VOI sales volume during 2008 probably had a lot more to do with the Great Recession than large-point owners selling into the resale market.


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## Braindead (Jul 28, 2016)

Ron   I do take your & others advice. I have 4 owners we also have our 2 adult children as owners. When we travel with friends & extended family we have put my wife & I on 2 different reservations. We do love our Wyndham vacations. In the future because everyone loved them also I'm going to need more guest certs. Again Thank you all for your advice!!!!


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