# My Aruba Surf Club tour: "Stupid is as stupid does"



## SpikeMauler (Sep 27, 2010)

Went on a tour this morning at the Surf Club. The wife and I met with the saleperson(who seemed nice enough)downstairs and headed upstairs for the presentation. We chit chatted for 15 minutes or so about the weather and how our stay was so far. After chit chat we got started. Salesman looks at paperwork and says " I see you own at Frenchman's Cove and bought it resale". I say that is correct. He asks why I would buy resale. I told him I bought resale because I saved $22,000 off the retail price and that I had no use for MRP's. I told him I did understand why some people bought from Marriott, but in my case it didn't work for me. He seemed a little taken back by the amount I paid for my resale week.
He asked if I was familiar with the new points program. I told him I was somewhat familiar but didn't know all the ins and outs which was why I was there. He asked what I knew and I told him. He asks "where did you learn all that". I told him from "TUG". His face kind of drained and he looked at me blankly.This is where it starts to go bad. He says "I see you're from New York so I'm gonna be direct with you since New Yorkers seem to appreciate that". I said "please do". He says it would be "stupid" of me not to convert my MFC week to points. I ask why. He says that points people get preference over deeded weeks people at their home resorts. He says I'll now have a hard time getting a MFC March week. He also says that II Marriott weeks will eventually dry up and I'll be left out of the loop. I tell him I'm not so sure of that, but I guess time will tell. I tell him I like the flexibility of the points program but not sure it's for me. He asks me flat out if I'm interested in converting to points. I say probably not at this time. He says again " we'll I don't understand why you're here. You say you like it but don't want to convert. That's just "stupid'
He looks at his watch and says "well, we got an hour left. What are we gonna do"? I say I don't know, what do you usually do? He asks me why I was there(again). I said to learn more about the point system. He says "you know everything(about points)". I tell him I dont know everything and to explain it. He gets up and excuses himself. He returns 10 minutes later and asks me to put myself in his shoes. Says if I was him how would I sell something to me. I tell him I dont know that I'm not a salesman. He asks why I would waste valuable vacation time with him discussing something I already know about. I tell him again I dont know everything, but he refuses to have a conversation about points. He again says he doesn't understand why I'm there. I've about had it now. I tell him I really didn't want to be there but the wife made me go. I then tell him I'm about ready to get very "honest and direct" with him. I tell him I wasn't the one who brought up that I was a resale buyer and  I wasn't the one who asked "why did I buy resale".
I'm just starting to elevate the conversation and he cuts me off and hands me a piece of paper(which I didn't look at). He then says to me "There's two kinds of people in this world. One who recognizes opportunity and seizes it and another who is "stupid" who lets the boat pass him by. Which one are you"? I tell him I'm the stupid one who lets the boat pass him by. He gets up and says he's going to get someone to sign off on the gift. The whole time I was pleasant. I never raised my voice once. As soon as he realized I wouldn't convert his whole demeanor changed and he became obnoxious and standoffish. He acted like a fith grader pouting and sulking, slunk in his chair. All in all not a good experience and I never did learn anymore about the point system. On a brighter note we really like the resort and might be looking to buy a resale week here .


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## Luckybee (Sep 27, 2010)

Thanks Spike....we're going down to Aruba(ocean club is our home resort) in Nov and havent toured in over 10 years. We had thought it might be worth the time of the tour to get the info from the horses mouth on the points program. You just reminded why we dont tour, and wont now 

It's too bad really...the reps in Aruba didnt have bad reputations prior to the points program. Wonder if they're getting a tad desperate given the difficulties I would expect they're having trying to sell the points concept to what I expect is a pretty tough audience(meaning current owners in Aruba)!


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## mtnpilot (Sep 27, 2010)

Gosh, the multiple reports about bad attitudes among salespeople certainly seem to indicate a systemic problem at Marriott these days.  Perhaps the sales force is getting frustrated that few are buying into the new "system", and I can only imagine that this economy is forcing many potential buyers to sit on the sideline.  I certainly hope this is not indicative of a permanent change at Marriott.

I enrolled my two weeks (including a Summit Watch ski week) into the points program, and then I realized - I can buy a resale week at drastically reduced prices, and use my "points" with my existing weeks to go all over the system (as available).  With the points I have, I really don't need to worry about whether or not future resales will convert, because the existing points pool I have will almost always be sufficient for my needs.  So, I for one will never ever likely buy trust points...

So, who will?


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## billymach4 (Sep 27, 2010)

*Too Bad!*

Shucks. I guess there is nothing else to learn about the MVCD points. I like your style!


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## Big Matt (Sep 27, 2010)

Here's my take:

Sales of weeks were drying up.  
The Marriott sales folks were told they would sell more with new points program.
They aren't selling more
The salesmen are frustrated.

Kind of sucks for them, right?

No excuse to be rude, but the economy is really hurting this industry.


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## timeos2 (Sep 27, 2010)

SpikeMauler said:


> now have a hard time getting a MFC March week. He also says that II Marriott weeks will eventually dry up and I'll be left out of the loop. I tell him I'm not so sure of that, but I guess time will tell. I tell him I like the flexibility of the points program but not sure it's for me. He asks me flat out if I'm interested in converting to points. I say probably not at this time. He says again " we'll I don't understand why you're here. You say you like it but don't want to convert. That's just "stupid'
> He looks at his watch and says "well, we got an hour left. What are we gonna do"? I say I don't know, what do you usually do? He asks me why I was there(again). I said to learn more about the point system. He says "you know everything(about points)". I tell him I dont know everything and to explain it. He gets up and excuses himself. He returns 10 minutes later and asks me to put myself in his shoes. Says if I was him how would I sell something to me. I tell him I dont know that I'm not a salesman. He asks why I would waste valuable vacation time with him discussing something I already know about. I tell him again I dont know everything, but he refuses to have a conversation about points. He again says he doesn't understand why I'm there. I've about had it now. I tell him I really didn't want to be there but the wife made me go. I then tell him I'm about ready to get very "honest and direct" with him. I tell him I wasn't the one who brought up that I was a resale buyer and  I wasn't the one who asked "why did I buy resale".
> I'm just starting to elevate the conversation and he cuts me off and hands me a piece of paper(which I didn't look at). He then says to me "There's two kinds of people in this world. One who recognizes opportunity and seizes it and another who is "stupid" who lets the boat pass him by. Which one are you"? I tell him I'm the stupid one who lets the boat pass him by. He gets up and says he's going to get someone to sign off on the gift. The whole time I was pleasant. I never raised my voice once. As soon as he realized I wouldn't convert his whole demeanor changed and he became obnoxious and standoffish. He acted like a fith grader pouting and sulking, slunk in his chair. All in all not a good experience and I never did learn anymore about the point system. On a brighter note we really like the resort and might be looking to buy a resale week here .



This sounds very much like our more recent Wyndham sales pitches to owners - the very negative approach to sales and offers (as in "Last week we had this GREAT deal but this week we don't") - strange and very irritating to us. 

I guess Marriott has managed to Wyndhamize themselves too. What a come down from what had been one of the best brands and least obnoxious sales groups now may be heading toward being one of the worst.


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## BocaBoy (Sep 27, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> This sounds very much like our more recent Wyndham sales pitches to owners - the very negative approach to sales and offers (as in "Last week we had this GREAT deal but this week we don't") - strange and very irritating to us.
> 
> I guess Marriott has managed to Wyndhamize themselves too. What a come down from what had been one of the best brands and least obnoxious sales groups now may be heading toward being one of the worst.



I don't know about one of the worst--I have seen some much worse elsewhere--but certainly not what they used to be.


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## modoaruba (Sep 27, 2010)

Luckybee said:


> Thanks Spike....we're going down to Aruba(ocean club is our home resort) in Nov and havent toured in over 10 years. We had thought it might be worth the time of the tour to get the info from the horses mouth on the points program. You just reminded why we dont tour, and wont now
> 
> It's too bad really...the reps in Aruba didnt have bad reputations prior to the points program. Wonder if they're getting a tad desperate given the difficulties I would expect they're having trying to sell the points concept to what I expect is a pretty tough audience(meaning current owners in Aruba)!



Just got back from the Ocean Club.We have been going every year for 12 years and every year we take the "tour" for the points.15,000 points/year.Adds up.
We are pretty much up front with the sales force that we are there for the points gift and not to buy at this time (for the past 10 years).
Occassionaly you get an abnoxious salesman and since I was a math major in college I can dance around them with the numbers they throw at us.
Luckily we had a salesman who was very honest with us and told us point blank that since we come every year,the point system has LESS value than deeded weeks.
Tug is a wonderful educational site with various points of views and insights.
If anyone wants to make the right choice regrding points,deeds,resales,read as much as you can and come to your own conclusion.An educated consumer is the salesman's deadliest enemy.



'


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## DanCali (Sep 27, 2010)

SpikeMauler said:


> He says it would be "stupid" of me not to convert my MFC week to points. I ask why. He says that points people get preference over deeded weeks people at their home resorts. He says I'll now have a hard time getting a MFC March week. He also says that II Marriott weeks will eventually dry up and I'll be left out of the loop. I tell him I'm not so sure of that, but I guess time will tell....
> 
> 
> "There's two kinds of people in this world. One who recognizes opportunity and seizes it and another who is "stupid" who lets the boat pass him by. Which one are you"?



FUD... Scare tactics... let alone the rudeness.... 

I think I would have turned on the voice recorder on my phone at some point and posted on here. Not that we need more unemployment but these types of salespeople shouldn't interact with people on vacation... If they invite me to an "owner update" I don't need the red carpet treatment, but I do expect to be treated with a certain amount of courtesy.


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## SpikeMauler (Sep 27, 2010)

DanCali said:


> FUD... Scare tactics... let alone the rudeness....
> 
> I think I would have turned on the voice recorder on my phone at some point and posted on here. Not that we need more unemployment but these types of salespeople shouldn't interact with people on vacation... If they invite me to an "owner update" I don't need the red carpet treatment, but I do expect to be treated with a certain amount of courtesy.



I agree Dan. He was super rude and obnoxious. I almost called over the sales manager but decided against it. As much as I thought he needed to be reprimanded or fired I didnt want to potentially cost him his job(which is why I haven't mentioned him by name here). Times are tough now and maybe he has a family to take care of. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and chalked it up to him having a bad day. I'll tell ya, it was real hard staying calm after being called stupid for the third time. My threshold is usually "two stupids" before I take offense... 
BTW I'm here till thursday if anyone has any questions about the resorts.


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## GregT (Sep 27, 2010)

Spike,

Thanks for the info -- and enjoy your time in Aruba!  

I have a different question for you, unrelated to your (bad) sales experience.

Aruba is a spot that I'll trade into one day via II (not points), and therefore I'm likely to get a Garden View (assuming Aruba Surf).

From walking the property, do you have an opinion of how the view quality is for Garden View traders?    As a Marriott owner, I don't think I'll get parking lot view, but you never know.

Any perspective would be appreciated  -- I'm targeting Aruba in a couple of years now..... 

Thanks again and enjoy the trip!

Greg


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## tombo (Sep 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> I don't know about one of the worst--I have seen some much worse elsewhere--but certainly not what they used to be.



As a previous Marriott salesman I wonder if you ever had your days where you lost it? To have guest after guest sit in front of you who are only there for the gifts while you make zero income is frustrating to say the least. I know most of your sales came from people who came with no intention of buying, but there is a big difference between those people who made a spur of the moment purchase and the educated resale buying TUG majority who will virtually never buy retail in todays economy with the dirt cheap resale prices and no ROFR being exercised. If you were still selling timeshares and a TUG member sat in front of you explaining that they only buy resale would you too ask why they are there?


I have been in 100% commission sales (never timeshares) and when someone spends the day educating themselves about what you are selling with no intention of ever buying, or not buying anytime in the near future, it is a day that you could have gone fishing or slept all day and made the same money. Some customers are repeat shoppers who never buy anything but enjoy the gifts. While you are with the tire kickers other salesmen have real customers that are potential buyers. It does get frustrating for both parties to butt heads and is in the end a waste of time for both the salesman and the guest. 

I do not go on any timeshare presentations anymore because it is such a miserable experience having the salesman pressure me to buy something that there is zero chance I am going to buy, and it is totally unfair to a hard working salesman who has a family to support who didn't get a chance to make a sale to a real potential customer. When those of us who only buy resale attend presentations we are making sure that the salesman in front of us makes no money. 

Don't go to sales presentations for the gifts because they really aren't worth 2 hours of your vacation you spent several thousand dollars to take. Is $100 meal coupon at a restaurant you wouldn't pay to eat at really worth 2 hours of your trip? Is 2 tickets to a theme park? It isn't worth it to me. Also don't go to a sales presentation hoping to learn about the new points program either because as SpikeMauler so eloquently detailed, a sales presentation is not the place to learn more about points, TUG is.

 Most TUGGERS (in fact most Americans) have never had to work hard for days or weeks for zero income because they made zero sales and don't understand the feeling. Most Americans have a job where they get paid everytime they go to work. The majority of people who have worked a 100% commission job will have some empathy for the timeshare salesman's plight and not want to waste the salesman's time (or their own). Most timeshare salesman lie and you can justify that they deserve to have their time wasted, but not all timeshare salesman lie, and all do work very hard to make a living. When on vacation enjoy your trip and do yourself and the sales force a favor by skipping the miserable 2 hour tour.


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## Old Hickory (Sep 28, 2010)

tombo said:


> As a previous Marriott salesman I wonder if you ever had your days where you lost it? To have guest after guest sit in front of you who are only there for the gifts while you make zero income is frustrating to say the least. I know most of your sales came from people who came with no intention of buying, but there is a big difference between those people who made a spur of the moment purchase and the educated resale buying TUG majority who will virtually never buy retail in todays economy with the dirt cheap resale prices and no ROFR being exercised. If you were still selling timeshares and a TUG member sat in front of you explaining that they only buy resale would you too ask why they are there?
> 
> 
> I have been in 100% commission sales (never timeshares) and when someone spends the day educating themselves about what you are selling with no intention of ever buying, or not buying anytime in the near future, it is a day that you could have gone fishing or slept all day and made the same money. Some customers are repeat shoppers who never buy anything but enjoy the gifts. While you are with the tire kickers other salesmen have real customers that are potential buyers. It does get frustrating for both parties to butt heads and is in the end a waste of time for both the salesman and the guest.
> ...



Thanks tombo.  Well done.


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## SpikeMauler (Sep 28, 2010)

tombo said:


> As a previous Marriott salesman I wonder if you ever had your days where you lost it? To have guest after guest sit in front of you who are only there for the gifts while you make zero income is frustrating to say the least. I know most of your sales came from people who came with no intention of buying, but there is a big difference between those people who made a spur of the moment purchase and the educated resale buying TUG majority who will virtually never buy retail in todays economy with the dirt cheap resale prices and no ROFR being exercised. If you were still selling timeshares and a TUG member sat in front of you explaining that they only buy resale would you too ask why they are there?
> 
> 
> I have been in 100% commission sales (never timeshares) and when someone spends the day educating themselves about what you are selling with no intention of ever buying, or not buying anytime in the near future, it is a day that you could have gone fishing or slept all day and made the same money. Some customers are repeat shoppers who never buy anything but enjoy the gifts. While you are with the tire kickers other salesmen have real customers that are potential buyers. It does get frustrating for both parties to butt heads and is in the end a waste of time for both the salesman and the guest.
> ...



I'm sure selling timeshare is a tough gig and obviously not for everyone. My problem was that it was pitched to me that the presentation would be focused on learning about the new point system and the benefits of conversion. As I previously stated I didn't volunteer the information that I bought resale and I didn't volunteer the information of why I bought resale. He asked and I answered. I also didn't go in there waving the TUG banner. He asked, I answerd. I don't think calling a potential customer or professional "tour" taker(which I'm not) "stupid" is helpful or professional for that matter. I'm an easy going polite guy. There's no way my actions or attitude attributed to setting him off, unless you count the fact that I answerd that I wasn't interested in converting at that time after being asked. I told him I wasn't comfrotable converting at this time because I didn't understand the point system fully. He kept telling me I did know everything, and hence the ridiculous back and forth banter ensued. The bottom line is the guy was out of line. This is probably the last time I will attend a presentation, unless I'm actually ready to convert my week to points. Even then, now, I'll probably do it over the phone...


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## modoaruba (Sep 28, 2010)

Lets understand something here.
When we arrive at the Ocean Club there is a voucher that comes with our greeting material that says to stop over at the MVCI desk to get a free gift.
We stop over and are given a free tube of aloe and an island VIP discount card.
In exchange we are asked for all our private info so they can look us up on the computer to see when the last time we took a tour.If it happens to be over a year they HOUND us to take another.Because THEY probably get some commission for us booking it.
It's NOT that WE initiated it.So lets get real.Everyone is in it for themselves.
I am also in retail and people wast my time frequently.It's part of doing business.
We have been going to Aruba for nearly 30 years and usually 2-3 times a year.
So for us the 1 1/2 hour tour is no biggie.We actually get to learn a few things that we did not previously understand.
An old sales ploy is that if you can't beat them demonize them.
And that was the insult hurled by tombo.


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## tombo (Sep 28, 2010)

modoaruba said:


> An old sales ploy is that if you can't beat them demonize them.
> And that was the insult hurled by tombo.



What insult did I hurl? I simply stated a case for all to avoid timeshare presentations as a win-win for all. I am one of the most anti-developer TUGGERs on the whole web site, so please don't assume I am taking up for marriott or any developer. I have NEVER purchased a retail Timeshare week or points, never found a single valid reason justifying the extra money to buy retail, and I have always posted to all on TUG to always buy resale , never retail. Attending a timeshare sales presentation that one knows in advance is a timeshare sales presentation knowing that there is no way that you would ever purchase is a waste of everyone's time and lose-lose scenario for all involved IMO.


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## modoaruba (Sep 28, 2010)

tombo said:


> What insult did I hurl? I simply stated a case for all to avoid timeshare presentations as a win-win for all. I am one of the most anti-developer TUGGERs on the whole web site, so please don't assume I am taking up for marriott or any developer.



The list:
1) Only there for the gift-because MVCI desk insisted.
2)called a tire kicker because you could have gone fishing.
3)unfair to the hard working salesman who has a family to support-like we don't and OUR jobs.It's doing business.Win some loose some.Oh well.
4)Not worth MY 2 hours?That's your inference not everyone elses.
5)A sales presentation is not to learn about points-Tell that to the MVCI desk because THEY are the ones who told us to go to learn about the points along with various emails from MVCIU to do the same.And we DID learn about the points.
6)Miserable 2 hour tour?-maybe to you.But we did learn a lot and our salesman told us not to exchange into the point system.

Don't prejudge.


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## AwayWeGo (Sep 28, 2010)

*I'm So Out To Lunch I Never Know When I've Been Insulted.*




tombo said:


> What insult did I hurl?


If you hurled 1, I completely missed it.  

Meanwhile, whenever the timeshare tour headhunters invite us to a presentation (for freebies), we don't accept -- _if_ we accept -- till after making it clear in advance that we already own more timeshares than we need, that we don't want any more, & that we paid pennies on the full-freight dollar, resale, for the ones we do have. 

Of course, the headhunters don't care about any of that.  The purpose in my saying it is so that later, when the high-pressure timeshare sellers go off about wasting their time & what am I doing there if I'm not buying, & how stupid I am for not converting to what they're selling, etc., I can truthfully say that I made all that perfectly clear before accepting the no-obligation invitation from _their_ marketing department. 

Plus, the headhunters typically express the invitation in terms of offering us the opportunity to learn more about ways of maximizing our vacation opportunities, etc. -- i.e., an _educational opportunity_ about points or options or whatever the flavor of the week happens to be.  So it goes. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## carolinept (Sep 28, 2010)

I have been on a few Marriott presentations, I don't go on them each time I'm at a timeshare, but if there is a resort I'd like to look at more closely and learn more about, I think there's nothing wrong with attending a presentation.  In some cases, I've learned something that I was previously unaware of.  In some cases, I was considering purchasing a week at that resort, albeit a resale week.  I understand the bottom line for the salesman, but no one should be treated rudely or called stupid in any sales setting.

Furthermore, the new rollout of the Destination Club significantly changes the product that we have all purchased.  I think at this point we are all entitled to attend a "Points Presentation" to learn more about the new program.  ALL of my info on this program has come from TUG, and it sounds like the Marriott sales team isn't fully informed about the new product, but shouldn't we have an opportunity to hear it from the horse's mouth (albeit with a grain of salt?).  I have received nothing from Marriott other than a glossy brochure.  I'd like to have the choice to hear it from a Marriott representative without feeling bullied.  The incentives are nice, but we are allowed to gather information about the new addition to our timeshare purchases.  

We should be able to respond to an INVITATION from a Marriott resort to attend a points presentation without being expected to fork over $20,000.  My husband is in sales, and he gives MANY presentations for his products without an expectation that a company will fork over $100,000+ for his product.  He does not berate them when they politely decline.  

Don't assume we're all professional tour takers.  In this time of the "new" Marriott timeshare option, we should be able to respond to a solicitation from Marriott to "learn more about our new program" without the expectation that we will pay $20,000 plus for it.  

Just my opinion.  I can understand the frustration that the sales force may be experiencing at this point, but a lot of industries have gone through major changes and it has affected their bottom line.  Bullying tactics won't do anything but upset previously faithful customers who were a big word-of-mouth referral and hurt the bottom line more.


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## Bunk (Sep 28, 2010)

I usually agree with Tombo, especially when it comes to Marriott's new program, but I think I have to respectfully disagree here. 

I sign up for these meetings for the points.  The idea is to pick a time that does not prevent me from enjoying the rest of the day (which for us is usually the earliest morning session because our daughter is likely to be sleeping anyhow.)  

I make it my practice to tell the salesperson up front that we're not interested in buying, that we want the points, but that we are interested in any recommendations to make our vacation better (i.e., restaurants, places to visit) or to help us use our timeshare more effectively.  We sometimes do learn information helpful to us.

If the salesperson wants to end early, that's his or her business and we certainly don't object to this.  

If the salespeople have a problem with the system, they should take it up with the Developer and not the guests.


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## tombo (Sep 28, 2010)

SpikeMauler said:


> I'm sure selling timeshare is a tough gig and obviously not for everyone. My problem was that it was pitched to me that the presentation would be focused on learning about the new point system and the benefits of conversion. As I previously stated I didn't volunteer the information that I bought resale and I didn't volunteer the information of why I bought resale. He asked and I answered. I also didn't go in there waving the TUG banner. He asked, I answerd. I don't think calling a potential customer or professional "tour" taker(which I'm not) "stupid" is helpful or professional for that matter. I'm an easy going polite guy. There's no way my actions or attitude attributed to setting him off, unless you count the fact that I answerd that I wasn't interested in converting at that time after being asked. I told him I wasn't comfrotable converting at this time because I didn't understand the point system fully. He kept telling me I did know everything, and hence the ridiculous back and forth banter ensued. The bottom line is the guy was out of line. This is probably the last time I will attend a presentation, unless I'm actually ready to convert my week to points. Even then, now, I'll probably do it over the phone...



I am not defending the undefensible actions of the salesman. I am not defending rudeness or lies even if the couple was a professional tour taker because the salesman is supposed to be able to act in a professional manner. I am also in no way saying anything bad about you or anyone else taking the tour. I have taken many myself. In the beginning I was not sure what I was going to see because i was always assured that it wasn't timeshares and that it was just an informative meeting, not a sales presentation. However years later I know each and every time that they are in fact trying to get me to go to a sales presentation. They might actually educate me and they will give me a tour of the resort, but I know that the entire purpose of the presentation is to make a sale.

Yes there is a street hawker who gets paid a commission to get folks to come, but we have the opportunity to say no rather than saying no after 90 minutes of misery. The front desk welcoming committee get paid to put bodies in seats, but we can tell them no too. The phone calls to the room are to get you to go even when you tell them you won't buy anything. Once again you can say no or don't answer the phone. 

My point is at the end of the day everyone knows that it is a sales presentation they are going to. I see signs for open houses inviting everyone to stop in where they have cookies and punch, but I don't stop in if I am not interested in buying a house, or just not interested in buying that house. While waste my time and the real estate agent's time? Car lots have free burgers and cokes with balloons for the kids. If I am not in the market for a car why stop? 

When I used to go to timeshare presentations they usually ended bad in a couple of ways. Often the salesman would repeatedly tell me lies I would have to bite my tongue ignoring and finally have to say something showing that I knew he was spouting lies. Confrontation followed. The salesman would become rude or get mad when I refused to buy no matter what angle he used to try and get me to buy, and it often became heated. I have left after almost going to blows following rude exchanges with sales/mgt and was mad for hours after it was over. I get my blood pressure up for a $75 or $100 gift while on vacation looking at a product I am not going to buy and it is never worth it to me in the end. Or finally I would have a really nice sales person who was so helpfull and friendly that I felt bad wasting his/her time when he might have made a sale had I not come. In the last case I would leave apologizing for wasting their time and feeling guilty about taking food out of his family's mouth for a $75 gift. I personally feel guilty when they are nice and wish i hadn't gone. This is my feelings and not a law or condemnation of others who disagree.

None of the above scenarios was pleasant and I knew before going that there would not be a good ending to me attending. I no longer attend and advise others to do the same. Others feel different and the gift is worth the misery to them. 

I have never returned home from a vacation wishing I had gone to a timeshare presentation while I was there, but I have returned from many vacations where I wished that I hadn't gone throught the 2 hours of misery.


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## Luckybee (Sep 28, 2010)

tombo said:


> As a previous Marriott salesman I wonder if you ever had your days where you lost it? To have guest after guest sit in front of you who are only there for the gifts while you make zero income is frustrating to say the least. I know most of your sales came from people who came with no intention of buying, but there is a big difference between those people who made a spur of the moment purchase and the educated resale buying TUG majority who will virtually never buy retail in todays economy with the dirt cheap resale prices and no ROFR being exercised. If you were still selling timeshares and a TUG member sat in front of you explaining that they only buy resale would you too ask why they are there?
> 
> 
> I have been in 100% commission sales (never timeshares) and when someone spends the day educating themselves about what you are selling with no intention of ever buying, or not buying anytime in the near future, it is a day that you could have gone fishing or slept all day and made the same money. Some customers are repeat shoppers who never buy anything but enjoy the gifts. While you are with the tire kickers other salesmen have real customers that are potential buyers. It does get frustrating for both parties to butt heads and is in the end a waste of time for both the salesman and the guest.
> ...



For the most part we agree with you and thats why we have never toured(even when we purchased we went in knowing what we wanted while the resort was being built  . That said, I cant tell you the number of calls we've received over the years while on holidays from "the sales forces", wherein we've indicated we are not interested in further purchases but they've said come anyway so that we can get x(x=gifts, points, etc.). We've never felt it was worth the aggravation to attend just for the benefits. It's no wonder that many feel its ok to do that since the rep seem to leave that impression...I think part of it is that some reps feel that you dont really mean it when you say you dont intend to buy.


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## Pens_Fan (Sep 28, 2010)

Put in an express lane.

If you are truly only interested in the Marriott points, or the restaurant gift certificate, there should be a method to allow you an out after 5 minutes without any hurt to either side.

If Marriott (and the salesman) really don't want the lookie-loos coming for the presentation, then don't offer anything for coming.  That will save time for everyone.

Of course, that would also kill all those potential pressure sales.

It's a wonderful dance we all play.  The salesman should understand his part.


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## 1950bing (Sep 28, 2010)

Timeshare sales people need to understand that not everyone in the world needs a timeshare. It seems as if they expect to sell 100% of the contacts.
No salesman should expect that ! They will get upset and ask why are you wasting their time. I look at as to why are they wasting MY time.


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## tombo (Sep 28, 2010)

modoaruba said:


> The list:
> 1) Only there for the gift-because MVCI desk insisted.
> 2)called a tire kicker because you could have gone fishing.
> 3)unfair to the hard working salesman who has a family to support-like we don't and OUR jobs.It's doing business.Win some loose some.Oh well.
> ...



Please don't put words in my mouth. I was giving my opinion and feelings on the matter. Since you itemized a list i will respond with MY FEELINGS, not how everyone should feel.

1. Most people go for the gift. Would you spend 90 minutes attending a timeshare sales presentation if they didn't gve a gift and/or 15,000 points? In your post you said you go for the 15,000 points. If the answer is no you wouldn't go unless they offered a gift/points, then yes you went for the gift.

2. I said while a salesman is with a "tire kicker" who is not going to buy anything that the salesman made zero money and could have been away from work fishing and made the same income which is zero. I hate to do that to someone. I have empathy for others. I don't sell timeshares thank goodness but would want others to not come for the gift and waste my time if I did. 

3. If you attend knowing that you will not buy no matter what, yes it is unfair to the salesman IMO and something I doubt you would do to a family member or close friend who sold timeshares for a living. Dealing with "gift getters" is part of the business where they have to work for zero pay. The fact that they have to do it wtihout getting paid when people show up with no intention of buying doesn't mean that I personally feel good about wasting their time or will do so just because I can. Once again this is how I feel, you feel differently.

4. I said it is not worth 2 hours of MY vacation time. You must have assumed it meant your vacation time.

5. If you really feel that you will get an honest explanation of the points system from a Marriott timeshare sales person, good for you. Feel free to base your points conversion and purchase decsions on the salesman because they are always honest and never biased.


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## Luckybee (Sep 28, 2010)

On another note....just read Spike's post to my dh....who feels you deserve alot of credit....lol....he says that the salesman wouldnt have made it to the 
3rd "stupid" with him


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## AwayWeGo (Sep 28, 2010)

*Guilty, Shmilltee.*




tombo said:


> I would leave apologizing for wasting their time and feeling guilty about taking food out of his family's mouth for a $75 gift.


No need for any guilt feelings.  

After the gyrations they go through to get butts in the seats, any fallout from people not buying, or for just going for the freebies, is on the timeshare companies & the timeshare sellers & the timeshare tour headhunters, not on the people being arm-twisted & guilt-tripped & truth-stretched & psychologically manipulated. 

And that sentiment is coming from somebody with an overactive conscience which in any & all cases declares me _Guilty Till Proven Innocent_. 

Shux upon'm -- the timeshare companies & the timeshare sellers & the timeshare tour headhunters, I mean, not the regular walking-around people on the receiving end of the old hard-sell. 

Not only that, our price has gone up.  We won't sign up for freebies of $75.  The expected amount is now $125 & the minimum is $100.   

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## RedHook (Sep 28, 2010)

tombo said:


> My point is at the end of the day everyone knows that it is a sales presentation they are going to. I see signs for open houses inviting everyone to stop in where they have cookies and punch, but I don't stop in if I am not interested in buying a house, or just not interested in buying that house. While waste my time and the real estate agent's time? Car lots have free burgers and cokes with balloons for the kids. If I am not in the market for a car why stop?




Bad examples. The precise reason they give away cookies and punch and burgers is to attract the people who weren't going to stop to begin with. They know that most people are just going to take the free food, but if they sell one of what they're selling, it pays for all the free food. People who are in the market for a car are coming to the lot anyway. They don't need a burger to get them there. The burger is for me, the non-shopper, with the .01% hope that I actually stop and look at something. They know what they're getting into when they fire up the grill, so why should I feel like it's a lose-lose situation?


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## timeos2 (Sep 28, 2010)

*Why deal with sales. We don't need or want them*



Luckybee said:


> For the most part we agree with you and thats why we have never toured(even when we purchased we went in knowing what we wanted while the resort was being built  . That said, I cant tell you the number of calls we've received over the years while on holidays from "the sales forces", wherein we've indicated we are not interested in further purchases but they've said come anyway so that we can get x(x=gifts, points, etc.). We've never felt it was worth the aggravation to attend just for the benefits. It's no wonder that many feel its ok to do that since the rep seem to leave that impression...I think part of it is that some reps feel that you dont really mean it when you say you dont intend to buy.



One big problem is the total lack of reality that surrounds these updates. Many owners REALLY want to find out things about their ownership, resort but have no interest in buying more. Yet to get the foot in the door they are assured that this will be an interesting update on what they own and how to use it, what the resort is up to, future plans, etc. All of which is totally false and all the sales people want is to push more on them at big money. They may or may not even know what is actually happening at the resort (most likely not unless it has to do with sales) and it all ends up frustrating everyone involved. 

Why nearly every developer/sales organization assumes owners want or need MORE from their resort is a basic problem with timeshare ownerships & on site stays. If you own & come in to enjoy your time you should be able to get any information/update/etc you want or need and NOT be forced to deal with any type of sales pressure. If you say NO it is NO. That should be the end of the sales story. No holding the parking pass or dangling $100 vouchers for "an update" they already said NO to. It is not the owners /guests fault that they feel pressured to have to deal with any of this. Theyshould be able to come in, get their unit, get any REAL information they desire and NEVER deal with sales if that isn't their request. End of story.


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## tombo (Sep 28, 2010)

RedHook said:


> Bad examples. The precise reason they give away cookies and punch and burgers is to attract the people who weren't going to stop to begin with. They know that most people are just going to take the free food, but if they sell one of what they're selling, it pays for all the free food. People who are in the market for a car are coming to the lot anyway. They don't need a burger to get them there. The burger is for me, the non-shopper, with the .01% hope that I actually stop and look at something. They know what they're getting into when they fire up the grill, so why should I feel like it's a lose-lose situation?



These are similar examples with some big differences. I know why they have the free cookies,free balloons, free burgers, free gifts, free points etc is to attract potential buyers.They hope someone who wasn't planning on buying will stop and make an impulse purchase. They are similar examples but not exact comparisons because the time required on the part of the sales people and myself to get the freebie is minimal with the house and cars, but long with the timeshares. All are freebies offered to attract potential buyers,but the freebies offered by timeshares have more strings attached and more hoops to jump through to get your freebie (I can get a burger without my wife being present, without having to test drive, without spending a minimum amount of time on the car lot, etc).

I don't make an impulse purchase of anything that costs over $1000 so I am not a potential impulse buyer of the house, the auto, or the timeshare. The only reason for me to stop is for the free goody and by stopping I will be wasting my time and the person selling any of the above items. I would be more likely to stop at the house or car lot because my time invested for the gift is a couple of minutes and I could quickly excuse myself from the salesperson telling them not interested right now, but a timeshare requires a minimum of 90 minutes of face to face time wasting lot's of my time and a lot of the the salesperson's too. 

If I was not too busy would I stop by the car lot and get a sandwich? Maybe, but I wouldn't spend an hour and a half driving vehicles, discussing the vehicle's specifications, and negotiating prices with the salesman on a car I am absolutelly not going to buy. An hour and a half minimum is what I have to spend to get timeshare freebie, and that is 90 minutes of lose-lose time for both myself and the sales person IMO because at the end of 90 minutes I won't have purchased anything, he will not have sold anything, and neither of us will have enjoyed the 90 minutes we were forced to spend together.


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## Old Hickory (Sep 28, 2010)

Now.. where is that thread about "Why should I go to Aruba"?


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## modoaruba (Sep 28, 2010)

We first went on an MVCI invite to Ariba Ocean Club in 1998.
Sat for the 15,000 point sales pitch and bought.
The following year we bought again.
Now the prices are near double through Marriott.
No reason to buy anymore.

Now,13 years X 15,000 points=195,000 points.
Like money in the bank,1 1/2 hours per year of 4 TS units,we are close to or at a tier 6 or 7 free week.

Did we do something wrong?
We don't feel bad about it at all


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## Luckybee (Sep 28, 2010)

modoaruba said:


> Now the prices are near double through Marriott.
> No reason to buy anymore.



Now as a result of Marriott's "transformation" even those of us who bought from the developer in the 90's could get even half of what we paid(and they want us to buy points....lol) but thats a different thread


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## modoaruba (Sep 28, 2010)

Luckybee said:


> Now as a result of Marriott's "transformation" even those of us who bought from the developer in the 90's could get even half of what we paid(and they want us to buy points....lol) but thats a different thread



So,should I feel bad wasting someone's time?
Fortunately,if you and us vacationed every year since we bought and paid in full without financing and taking account all the MFs we paid in,we might be slightly ahead or at worst at a break even.Don't you think?

Now we just have to deal with the MFs that sometimes are higher than the rentals. 

What has been givith is now being takith.

Look at it as a current 401K.YUUUKKK!!!


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## MOXJO7282 (Sep 28, 2010)

Sales has to be the most difficult job there is, having to deal with rejection so often. If it were not a situation where they are actively soliciting clients I would have a problem with going to the presentations for just the points or various certificate. However TS companies create the situation so that eliminates my sympathy for their sales people. If they don't want people coming for just the prizes than they should qualify it more. It is totally in their control to change the program but they choose not to so they can still get the unsuspecting client to sell their over priced goods to.


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## MOXJO7282 (Sep 28, 2010)

tombo said:


> These are similar examples with some big differences. I know why they have the free cookies,free balloons, free burgers, free gifts, free points etc is to attract potential buyers.They hope someone who wasn't planning on buying will stop and make an impulse purchase. They are not like examples becase the time required on the part of the sales people and myself to get the freebie is minimal with the house and cars, but long with the timeshares.



I'm sorry I think its the same scenario. Free anything will get people in the door. That is the plan, get as many people in the door as possible. Sales is a numbers game, pitch as many people as possible to increase your sales opportunities.

Now the TS sales guy could've sized up his client just like the auto guy does, and determine no sale is going to occur and cut the time lost and move onto the next guy. The car guy will engage almost every customer possible and "size" up those that are possible sales and spend more time with those and just cursory time with customers who are just there for the freebies. Same scenerio to me.


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## tombo (Sep 28, 2010)

MOXJO7282 said:


> I'm sorry I think its the same scenario. Free anything will get people in the door. That is the plan, get as many people in the door as possible. Sales is a numbers game, pitch as many people as possible to increase your sales opportunities.
> 
> Now the TS sales guy could've sized up his client just like the auto guy does, and determine no sale is going to occur and cut the time lost and move onto the next guy. The car guy will engage almost every customer possible and "size" up those that are possible sales and spend more time with those and just cursory time with customers who are just there for the freebies. Same scenerio to me.



The car guy can leave you quickly if you are not a buyer and go get another customer, and so can the real estate sales person. However the timeshare sales person and you are required to spend at least 90 minutes together no matter what. They do not have the option of getting another customer once you make it clear that you only buy resale.

I don't expect everyone to have empathy for the salespeople and no one is doing anything wrong going to the presentation for the gift. I don't like to do it myself.

 PERSONALLY (not placing my views on others) :

1. I feel bad for the sales person. I have walked a mile in their moccasins and know what it is like to work purelly on commission. If I was interested in a resort but probably not purchasing I would go in a heart beat because I was slightly considering purchasing, but I can see no reason to attend and waste their time when there is no possible way I am going to buy. That is just me. I also feel for athletes when they tear their ACL because I too have had that knee injury and know what they are going through.

2. I don't blame the sales person for what the boss told the body snatchers to offer or say to get me in the room. The street grabbers get paid for everyone who makes enough money and shows up with their spouse. You can tell the body snatchers that you only buy resale and they don't care. The sales men on the other hand would love to exclude many of us who will never buy retail no matter what if they were givn the option to do so.

3. I like to relax on vacation. I have fun on vacation and being beat on by salesmen and their mgrs trying to get me to buy a retail timeshare for 30 minutes or more is not relaxing or fun, and by the time I leave I am mad and my blood pressure is up so it takes me a while to wind down.If I want to get stressed i can do that at home. I go on vacation to get away from stress, not voluntarilly sign up for it. I would pay $50 or more just to NOT have to sit through a 90 minute presentation. if my MF's would be reduced by $50 TO $100 for attending the resort's 90 minutes of sales misery, I would simply pay the higher MF's. In fact I think I would rather take 3 licks with a paddle than sit through some of the presentations I endured in the past!

4. Counting the time it takes getting to the timeshare sales location, registering, touring the resort,answering the how important vacations are to you questions followed by the extended periods of saying NO to the salesmen and mgr time after time, going to gifting and answering more questions, and getting back to my room/car the total time is usually over 2 hours. Factor in that it pretty much kills a whole morning or afternoon of a 7 day trip, it is not worth it to me timewise either.

5. For me to attend a presentation I know is a sales forum while not planning on buying anything just so I can get a gift makes me feel similar to how I feel about the resort offering a gift acting like it is just so I can tour the resort. We both knew this was about selling a timehsare and we both were trying to get over on each other. The main difference is they approached me, I didn't approach them. However when the sales person asked me why I am there if I knew I wasn't buying, it rings hollow to say because I was invited by your company and I told them I wasn't buying. The reality both myself and the salesman know is that I came knowing that I was going to spend 90 minutes with a salesman that had no chance of selling me just so I could get a "free" gift. That is how I feel and I know most here don't feel the same.

6. To me the lost time, stress, aggravation, lies, pressure, the guilty feeling of wasting the occassional nice salesman's time, and wasting mine and my wife's precious vacation time are all worth more than some measly $100 gift to me. If I spent $1200 on air fare, $1000 on the resort, $500 on car rental, took off of work for a week, and left family,pets, and friends for 7 days, $100 does not nearly compensate me for wasting almost 1/2 of a day of a vacation I have spent over $400 a day to enjoy. 

7. Finally it would take $400 or more to entice me to go through the misery of a presentation in the future. If I need $100 rather than attending a timeshare presentation I will instead eat several of my meals in the room rather than eating out, I will miss a day or two at the theme parks, I will go on a driving vacation close to home rather than flying, or if I really need the money bad enough I will opt instead to do a staycation at home and save all the other money I would spend traveling. I will not choose taking a 90 minute tour as an income option while on vacation.

Everyone please feel free to go to all of the presentations for gifts that you want,  but IMO you are doing a disservice to yourself, your spouse, and the salesmen. That is my personal opinion.


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## Luckybee (Sep 28, 2010)

modoaruba said:


> So,should I feel bad wasting someone's time?
> Fortunately,if you and us vacationed every year since we bought and paid in full without financing and taking account all the MFs we paid in,we might be slightly ahead or at worst at a break even.Don't you think?
> 
> Now we just have to deal with the MFs that sometimes are higher than the rentals.
> ...



No I wasnt suggesting anyone should feel bad about wasting the salesmans time....rather to me it would be a waste of my own time to tour and thats why we dont. What Tombo said in his most recent post about the value of vacation time is equally appropriate to us..dh and I deal with other peoples stress at home 24-7 and have no desire for it whatsoever on our holidays 

In terms of break even we've actually worked out what we've paid and would have spent otherwise and even if we had to give away our weeks we'd still be at a break even point. Doesnt mean that I think Marriott intentionally butchering the value of my weeks is appropriate.

Since we're in Canada I also dont have to worry about 401K's


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## windje2000 (Sep 28, 2010)

MOXJO7282 said:


> Sales is a numbers game, pitch as many people as possible to increase your sales opportunities.
> 
> Now the TS sales guy could've sized up his client just like the auto guy does, and determine no sale is going to occur and cut the time lost and move onto the next guy.



*Its the disrespectful and obnoxious way he treated this Marriott customer that's the issue.  
*
Salesman are one of the important points of contact between the organization and its customers/future customers.  They should be ambassadors for the business.  A pro knows not to take their 'bad days' out on prospects.  Nobody bats 1.000.

And the fact the OP owns resale is irrelevant.  Where does some unwashed Marriott salesman come off treating a resale owner as a second class citizen?  Do they really think the ownerships should automatically revert back to Marriott after the original purchaser wants out?

Does Hovnanian get upset when someone purchases a resale Hovnanian constructed home?  Does your Porsche dealer treat you like dirt because you bought a used 911?   

This guy is in the wrong job.  So is whoever is managing that sales operation if he's not counseled out.


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## RedHook (Sep 28, 2010)

tombo said:


> These are similar examples with some big differences...



Uh, tombo, they were your examples brother.


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## SpikeMauler (Sep 28, 2010)

GregT said:


> Spike,
> 
> Thanks for the info -- and enjoy your time in Aruba!
> 
> ...



Greg
I sent you a PM.


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## mas (Sep 28, 2010)

tombo said:


> ... Don't go to sales presentations for the gifts because they really aren't worth 2 hours of your vacation ...
> 
> Most TUGGERS (in fact most Americans) have never had to work hard for days or weeks for zero income because they made zero sales and don't understand the feeling. Most Americans have a job where they get paid everytime they go to work. The majority of people who have worked a 100% commission job will have some empathy for the timeshare salesman's plight and not want to waste the salesman's time (or their own). Most timeshare salesman lie and you can justify that they deserve to have their time wasted, but not all timeshare salesman lie, and all do work very hard to make a living. When on vacation enjoy your trip and do yourself and the sales force a favor by skipping the miserable 2 hour tour.



My intention here is not to start a big argument, however here's my take:

Your assumption that I don't/won't  think 15,000 MRPs are worth my time, is just that... *your *assumption, not mine.   So if you don't want to tour for the points, that's your decision and that's again fine, but don't assume that I wouldn't be interested either for the info or the 'gift'.

As to wasting the salesman's time, that's what they are there for.  They are the one's who are offering the gift incentives so they can't, or certainly shouldn't be surprised when most people who are there aren't really interested in purchasing the product.  If they didn't offer the incentives, there would be a lot of empty sales rooms.  So, when I, as a customer, go for the gift instead of to purchase, I don't see why I should expect 'attitude' from the sales person regardless of whether he's made 20 sales that day or none.


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## tombo (Sep 28, 2010)

mas said:


> My intention here is not to start a big argument, however here's my take:
> 
> As to wasting the salesman's time, that's what they are there for.  They are the one's who are offering the gift incentives so they can't, or certainly shouldn't be surprised when most people who are there aren't really interested in purchasing the product.  If they didn't offer the incentives, there would be a lot of empty sales rooms.  So, when I, as a customer, go for the gift instead of to purchase, I don't see why I should expect 'attitude' from the sales person regardless of whether he's made 20 sales that day or none.



Not arguing either, but the salesman are not there to spend 90 minutes with people who are never going to buy retail. they are there to try and make a living by selling timeshares. The incentives are offered to get the sales people prospects. I am not a prospect because I will never buy retail. If they get enough non buyers they will lose their jobs.

There is no excuse for rude sales people whether you buy or not, but always remember that no matter how nice the person who sits in front of you is, they just spent 90 minutes with you and made no money if you don't buy.Your adviser can get great reviews from you and other owners, but if they never sell they are fired. A week or 2 with no sales will leave them unemployed and broke. The pressure is intense and a never ending parade of gift getters who don't buy will end their job. 

I don't know what you do for a living, but if you go to work tomorrow and your boss says I am not sure if we are going to pay you for working today or not, let's see how it goes. At the end of the day you make nothing even though you worked hard and you now get to go home and come back and do it again the next day when you once again might or might not get paid depending on how things go.  Try a few 8 to 12 hour days or weeks of stress and pressure with no income and see if you would feel ok with people thinking your job is to be nice to people without getting paid.

 If you really like the nice professional sales person in front of you that you didn't buy from because you were just there for the gift, you can be pretty sure that he doesn't feel the same way about you no matter how nice he acts.


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## AwayWeGo (Sep 28, 2010)

*Local Option*




tombo said:


> The car guy can leave you quickly if you are not a buyer and go get another customer, and so can the real estate sales person. However the timeshare sales person and you are required to spend at least 90 minutes together no matter what.


Sometimes timeshare sellers, when they size up their prospects as non-buyers, have the option of & cutting the presentation short by sending the prospects straight to the freebies window without treating them to the full 90-minutes of high-pressure. 

No doubt that's a company-by-company option, or an option available to experienced high-producer timeshare sellers & not to rookies, etc.  

In any case, we were excused from the old hard sell one time when the Vistana Orlando timeshare seller learned that we exchanged in using as trade bait a low-cost foreign timeshare in a far-off land overseas.  We still got the freebies (discount Disney tickets) -- actually had been "pre-gifted" with those at the time we signed up for the Vistana Orlando timeshare tour while were there on RCI exchange.   

Naive as we were at the time, we figured that's the treatment all future timeshare sellers would give us consistently from that point on.  Wrong.  Most of the time they give us the full monte -- 90+ minutes regardless.  

I can understand why the timeshare sellers get grumped off when they invest all that time & effort on people who turn out to be TUG-educated resale buyers exclusively.  But I can't understand why they feel free to punish the non-buyers, or to try to get even with them, or to insult them or berate them or treat them with hostility, or engage in any such unprofessional behavior. 

Surely the timeshare sellers don't expect anyone they insult & call stupid to buy anything.  Wouldn't they be better off keeping a civil tongue in their heads & moving on quickly to start fresh with new sets of prospects?  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## scpoidog (Sep 28, 2010)

*Isn't that their job?*



tombo said:


> Not arguing either, but the salesman are not there to spend 90 minutes with people who are never going to buy retail. they are there to try and make a living by selling timeshares. The incentives are offered to get the sales people prospects. I am not a prospect because I will never buy retail. If they get enough non buyers they will lose their jobs.



I know that the primary reason the Sales staff are there is to sell timeshares, but I assuming (Yes I know what the definition of assume = makikng an ASS of U and Me is), that somewhere in their job description is a line that says, "Give presentations to resort guests and other prospective buyers"

Everyone of us who works has some parts of their job that add no value and we hate to do it, but it's part of the end game of getting a paycheck.   Every Sales outfit has ratios that they measure their staff on, and I'm sure Marriott has a closing % mixed into their guidelines and this is communicated to every salesperson.  

I'm not trying to make their lives harder, but ultimately it's their job to give presentations to anyone who qualifies and signs up.  

Also, I'm keeping the folks that sign us up for the presentations employed.

Just my two cents.


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## sail27bill (Sep 28, 2010)

It's one of those catch 22 situations--the salesperson needing to sell in order to be paid, the developer needing to fill seats (hence the freebies) and the buyer needing to be knowledgeable about the situation.  

I have sat in on a few presentations--even bought two Starwood units direct from the developer; and believe me I feel for the salesperson.  I don't want to waste their time but I always expect professionalism.  Twice I have been insulted by asking a question..and guess what? I later bought from someone else.  Not all people go to get freebies, but they do help.  I understand time is money, however on one of my owner updates I was asked to upgrade to a lock-off unit.  When I said I did not want to mortgage something I owned outright, I was told--"don't you care about your family?  Don't you have any friends?"  The truth was I have too many friends and family--hence not upgrading the 2 bedroom unit was a defensive maneuver on my part.  However insulting me when I was truly interested and had bought a developer week really put a bad taste in my mouth.  It was then that I asked for my "freebies".

I have only gone to "2" Marriott presentations.  One who said my "Starwood unit was subpar and would I like to own the cream of the crop."  The other was a friendly talk at check in where I really wanted to buy.  One of the salesmen was there, and after talking with me actually said not to buy.  Based on my ability to trade in and my travel history--travel a bit but like hotels--he suggested I continue to trade.  It was then that I wanted to buy from him.  He actually suggested I buy resale, try it out and if I liked it, I could then come back and buy a developer week from him.  Nice guy.

The unfortunate thing is that it isn't a win-win situation.  However, I do believe honesty and civility up front goes a long way to easing a tense situation.


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## tombo (Sep 28, 2010)

scpoidog said:


> Everyone of us who works has some parts of their job that add no value and we hate to do it, but it's part of the end game of getting a paycheck.   Every Sales outfit has ratios that they measure their staff on, and I'm sure Marriott has a closing % mixed into their guidelines and this is communicated to every salesperson.
> 
> I'm not trying to make their lives harder, but ultimately it's their job to give presentations to anyone who qualifies and signs up.
> 
> ...



I understand what you are saying and yes they have to do those things that don't always create sales. The difference I am trying to explain to those TUGGERS who have never worked commission is that unlike most jobs where you get paid whenever you are working, they don't have the same thing. 

You might have to do things at your job you hate and you feel have no value, but you are paid to do those things. How would you like to be told that starting tomorrow you will have to do the things you don't like at your job after hours for no pay? The commission salesperson has to do things like babysit people who are only there for gifts and answer questions from resale buyers in order to continue working there, not because they are paid to do it.

Many people who see no problem in making the salespeople work for free so they can get a free gift would be the same ones who would demand overtime or a day off if they had to work one minute past quitting time at their personal job or if they had to work a Saturday. One of my best friends leaves crappy tips and I always tell him that they can't make a living without tips. He says then they need to get a better job, it isn't his job to support them. He has a great job, makes good money, he complains whenever any new workload is added to him yet he has no sympathy for others. I leave extra tips on his plate after he leaves because I am embarassed at his callousness. 

Timeshare salespeople have a job most of us would hate to have to do for a living. Be compassionate for those who are less fortunate because there but for the grace of God goes any of us.

I have said more than enough and I am now getting off of my soap box.


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## sbeck22 (Sep 28, 2010)

Whyis the whole time share experience so "bad".

It's a dance.  Can't we all get along.

I HAVE to go when we go to Ko Olina.  We got the $150 a night deal.  With parking we will pay $751.  So I have to sit for 90 minutes.

It seems to me Marriott went to points since they can sell and the points don't cost them huge outlays to build things.  Maybe that is wrong but it seems they can cut hard costs of construction and sell $20K in points.

Anyway, we will sit there and tell them we aren't interested.  We are saving in gold and silver, we don't need a TS but we would LOVE a vaca away from the kids at Ko Olina again.

So I don't have a problem if they person gets crazy.  I will say hey you offered us the rate, we will listen for 90 minutes.

thanks, have a nice day.  This guy posting about wasting a sales person's time.  Well I would love to say I shouldn't be here since I am looking out for you and your time.  Can I go now?.  I don't think that would go over real well.

But I am new to this but this Tombo guy seems to be saying only go if you want to buy.  I can't do that.


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## .snickers (Sep 29, 2010)

I am 100% commissioned.  I am a mortgage banker.  I understand what it is like to spend "hours" with a client, work on his credit for months, and end up with no closing because the client only really came to get his credit score  or his Realtor got me to fix everything so he could whisk them away to their favorite lender, who then breezes in and takes the bow and commission.

In every case, I could have been helping and closing someone else.  However,  I chose to do 100% commission.  I have gone a month without any closings even though I have spent days, weekends and evenings answering questions.  Why do I stay?  Because I close many loans the next period around.  I know the odds.  I chose what I do.  My clients never bear the blunt of an "off" period.  Any salesman who is quick draw on the attitude will never last anyway.  He needs to lose his job.  Why would a "salesman" stay anyway if he couldn't make it with the numbers Marriott brings thru him?  A sales force is designed with the averages they expect from their past numbers.  

If we are to worry about the saleman getting "0", what about the street hawkers that support their families when we do a presentation?

Sales training will tell you that your attitude carries onto the next sale.  So if you aren't selling much, you may be poisoning your own well.

Thanks for the concern, but Marriott needs to keep their level of excellence up.  They wouldn't put up for 1 minute with the housekeeping staff talking to their guests with an attitude.  So why do they accept inviting guests into their info setting, and then abuse them?


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## windje2000 (Sep 29, 2010)

tombo said:


> I understand what you are saying and yes they have to do those things that don't always create sales. The difference I am trying to explain to those TUGGERS who have never worked commission is that unlike most jobs where you get paid whenever you are working, they don't have the same thing.
> 
> You might have to do things at your job you hate and you feel have no value, but you are paid to do those things. How would you like to be told that starting tomorrow you will have to do the things you don't like at your job after hours for no pay? The commission salesperson has to do things like babysit people who are only there for gifts and answer questions from resale buyers in order to continue working there, not because they are paid to do it.
> 
> ...



Regardless of the compensation system, employees either add value (produce sales or whatever) or disappear.  

There's no free lunch, . . . unless Daddy owns the company.


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## modoaruba (Sep 29, 2010)

But for those who put down owners for touring for points,is it then OK to try to sell to them at highly inflated prices?
Not all of those touring know that they can buy much cheaper elsewhere.
So deception is OK?
The educated consumer is now the demon going to get the reward?

As I stated before,we own 4 weeks,and 1 1/2 hrs per year of touring has given us a free week on the system that MVCI created, not me.Did I also mention they have drinks,cookies and fruit-lunch.MMMM.Maybe we should not have had those either.Oh the guilt 

So between the techniques my salesman tried on me inorder for me to buy,and me taking the gift instead,puts us in a kind of a stalemate.


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## tombo (Sep 29, 2010)

modoaruba said:


> But for those who put down owners for touring for points,is it then OK to try to sell to them at highly inflated prices?
> Not all of those touring know that they can buy much cheaper elsewhere.
> So deception is OK?
> The educated consumer is now the demon going to get the reward?
> ...



I was not putting down anyone who goes on the tours, I was just presenting reasons I don't go for others to consider. By all means go if you want to. I have many friends who go on a timeshare tour at least once on every vacation. 

Many if not most of the salesman lie and there is no defense for that. Many are rude and unprofessional. Many salespeople are not good or moral people and there is no way or reason to defend them. The problem is that you never know what type of sales person you will get until you are sitting with them. It might be a really good person. Of course playing the odds you will more likely than not get a salesman that is rude and unprofessional who lies.

Educated consumers can take advantage of the resorts by continuously getting freebies and never buying. Resorts take advantage of uneducated buyers by selling them after they come in for the freebies. The big bad resort is easier to demonize, but both groups are in it for what they can get for themselves and neither cares if others get hurt financially IMO.

The developers are ripping buyers off by charging ridiculous prices. I never buy retail. I tell everyone I meet to never buy retail. I have told people who had just purchased retail on more than one occassion that they should rescind and buy resale. I never have and never will justify retail prices. I have debated many here who used to justify the retail prices because of access to Marriott reward points. NEVER BUY RETAIL.


In post 37 I listed 7 reasons I PERSONALLY don't go on timeshare tours for the freebies. Only 2 of the 7 referred to the sales person's commission status. The other 5 were reasons I wouldn't go which had nothing to do with the salesman's income. Some will agree with me, some won't, neither is wrong. It is simply a choice based on personal feelings.

As I said before I was drawn back in, I have said enough about this.


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## AwayWeGo (Sep 29, 2010)

*You Typed A Mouthful.*




tombo said:


> The developers are ripping buyers off by charging ridiculous prices.


You are correct, sir. 

I don't know how the timeshare sellers can live with themselves, knowing as they must that many if not most of the deeds they're selling for major serious money are worth approximately _Zero_ on the open market.  

All I can figure is that they have some way of ignoring their consciences, if they still have them, or of putting their consciences in some sort of suspended animation during the hard-sell workday.  

The thing is, the whole full-freight timeshare biz model is based on a conscience-wounding concept, for those in the business that still have consciences.  Razzle-dazzle.  Exploiting ignorance.  Shuck & jive.  Truth stretching.  Guilt tripping.  Ballyhoo.  Psychological manipulation.  

Don't even get me started on the various aftermarket upfront fee bamboozles & hornswoggles. 

The timeshare biz is way, way overdue for commercial innovators to come along with an all-new & lots more honest way of selling timeshares, something along the lines of WalMart for newly deeded units & something along the lines of CarMax for resales.   I am not holding my breath waiting for that to happen. 

Meanwhile, with the full-freight timeshare biz operating as it still does today, people taking timeshare tours just for the freebies need not feel the slightest twinge of guilt for going on all the sales presentations they can stand & absorbing all the timeshare-tour freebies they can snag.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## tombo (Sep 29, 2010)

AwayWeGo said:


> You are correct, sir.
> 
> I don't know how the timeshare sellers can live with themselves, knowing as they must that many if not most of the deeds they're selling for major serious money are worth approximately _Zero_ on the open market.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree with a single thing you said in principle. However reality is sometimes different than principle. 

You ask how the salesmen can sell for those high prices knowing they are for sale much cheaper resale. How do they live wth themselves? You wonder if they have a conscience. Well they are selling for the price their employer tells them to sell it for. That is their job. It is easy to say they have no conscience because it is others doing it. If you work for Marriott it is good business practices. If you don't work for Marriott it is ripping the consumer off.

Let's reverse the situation because often when someone else does it, it is bad. However when you do it it is all right. If you have a week you own at the Marriott Maui listed for sale on redweek and someone is going to buy it from you for $25,000, but you know that 3 just like it sold on e-bay for $10,000 in the last 2 months. Will you tell the buyer they are paying too much and that they can the exact same week cheaper elsewhere? Will you sell it for $25,000 or go ahead and sell it for $10,000 since they can get it elsewhere for that price? Will your conscience bother you if you sell it for $25,000 or will you pat yourself on the back for getting top dollar for your week?

If you own a week worth zero on the open market and you somehow find a buyer willing to pay you $1000 plus closing costs, will you take the money or just give tbhe week to them for free and pay the closing costs since they can get that deal elsewhere? If you take the money will you have trouble sleeping at night?

 If you know that your resort is in deep financial trouble with many reposessed weeks not paying MF's do you tell them that you are selling because you are afraid that the resort is going broke? If you tell them they won't buy. If you don't tell them why you are selling you have dumped a risky obligation on them without full disclosure. Another moral dilemma.

If your points or floating week never gets a good reservation for you do you tell the potential buyers that you are selling it because you can never reserve a good week, or do you tell them that it floats weeks a through z and you are selling it because you don't use it anymore? You are not lying because it does float wekks A to Z, and you really do never use it anymore because you can't ever reserve a week you want, but you are omitting the fact that you can never reserve the prime weeks G through O. You didn't lie, but you weren't totally truthfull in order to sell your week. If the developer does that it is always wrong here on TUG,if you do it is it still wrong?

 If it is OK for you to sell your week you own for the most you can get anyone to pay, then why is it wrong for Marriott or any other developer to do the same thing? If omission of pertinent details about the resort or week is criminal when the resorts do it, why not when individuals do it? It is easy to blame the salesman as greedy and without conscience for selling weeks at the high retail prices, but when it is an owner's week the owner wants to sell, all they see are dollar signs and I guess that is ok? How many threads are there on TUG discussing how you sell on redweek for top dollar and buy on e-bay for the best price? Should anyone selling on redweek feel obligated to inform any potential buyer that weeks sell cheaper on e-bay, or if they don't tell them are they ignoring their conscience?


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## timeos2 (Sep 29, 2010)

*Buy resale & truly benefit*



tombo said:


> The developers are ripping buyers off by charging ridiculous prices. I never buy retail. I tell everyone I meet to never buy retail. I have told people who had just purchased retail on more than one occassion that they should rescind and buy resale. I never have and never will justify retail prices. I have debated many here who used to justify the retail prices because of access to Marriott reward points. NEVER BUY RETAIL.



This is the simple, never to be ignored tip/rule if you wish to get value out of ANY timeshare.  

Understand that no matter what resort, brand, system or your use/trade intent there may be the PURCHASE COST, what you pay to obtain the right to pay/use/trade a specific ownership be it points, a deed, a RTU or whatever, is GONE to the seller, whoever they may be - developer or individual rights holder, and all you can ever hope to get back is whatever YOU as  the eventual seller can talk someone else out of. If you pay $1 or $10K for that right to control that deed, RTU, those points - whatever it may be - you get NOTHING but that right of control and the obligations of payments it carries with it. 

You don't pay more or less annual fees, taxes, reserves, special assessment(s) or anything else. If you paid $1 or $10K what you owe as the new owner of record is exactly the same. No credit because you paid the Developer and extra ten grand - you just gave them a $10K profit. No penalty because you paid only $1 to a seller - the ongoing costs to YOU NOW are the exact same either way. 

Once people understand that purchase cost means NOTHING in the total scheme they may finally realize why paying any premium in purchase cost is just money lost and keeping that number as low as possible should always be paramount for any timeshare portfolio.  It is why no timeshare regardless of view, dates, etc is likely to have a RESALE value of over $5K - and even that number is very high and would apply to less than 2-3% of all timeshares. Now when dealing with one, specific week/purchase there may be circumstances that can justify a bit of wiggle and a bump in price if you really really want THAT place/time/etc - but in general terms top it out at $5K. 

Go from free to 5K, buy to use, pay attention to the history of the property/system to be sure it fits what you want to do, buy at Owner controlled resorts, avoid extra cost exchange companies whenever possible and always, always buy resale only to USE!  Anything else and you'll be setting yourself up to feel abused by what can be a great way to vacation rather than enjoying what can be/is a wonderful way to travel nearly anywhere you want to go at great big condos for very little expense. Use the system in the most economical way and you will be a big winner. 

It means NEVER buying retail. Never.


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## kjd (Sep 29, 2010)

It's my observation that some of the problems with potential buyers are brought on by either the salesperson or the Marriott marketing plan.  For example, it is difficult to tour a unit at a resort without the sales pitch taking place.  Sometimes all the information that we would want about a resort is to see a model of the units.  

The sales department at some of the Marriott locations did show us a model unit with the understanding that we just wanted to see what the unit looked like.  We have done this several times to see a three bedroom layout.  Our motive is for trading purposes.  The sales department in those instances was most gracious and we did not expect any incentives from Marriott.  

However, in other cases we were told that we had to hear the sales presentation or we could not see the model unit.  We were told that a salesperson had to be present when we toured the model and time is money to them.  (That's understandable within certain limits)    

What's not understandable is the requirement to sit down with the salesperson and talk about the advantages of a purchase.  It sounds like a sales gimmick similar to having to sit down with the "sales manager" when buying a car.

It is also true on occasion that if you happen to mention TUG an alarm goes off in the sales department  That's usually the end of the discussion.


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## AwayWeGo (Sep 29, 2010)

*Correct Again, Sir.*




tombo said:


> It is easy to blame the salesman as greedy and without conscience for selling weeks at the high retail prices, but when it is an owner's week the owner wants to sell, all they see are dollar signs and I guess that is ok?


Even so, I see a difference between institutionalized industry-wide corporate behavior & biz-modeling on the 1 hand & on the other hand what an individual timeshare owner may resort to.  

For 1 thing, the regular walking-around individual timeshare owners don't systematically lure in prospects with the offer of freebies so they can inveigle them, in a premeditated, company-sponsored way, into grossly overpaying with no opportunity to attempt any kind of due diligence or comparison shopping.  

For another thing, the company timeshare sellers all have muzak & gymnasium-size sales rooms on site.  All I have is 1 electric computer connected to the internet here at home. 

Realizing we could not in good conscience sell anybody our dinky Arkansas points-timeshare with its excessive (& rising) annual fees, we deeded it back to the resort _el freebo_.  Good on us for not sticking somebody else with it.  Shux upon us for giving it back in a way that jacks up everybody else's fees at that resort by the tiny amount it takes each of them to cover their share of the fees we're no longer paying. 

Shux upon us also for buying a replacement dinky points-timeshare for peanuts from eBay sellers who more than likely hornswoggled the prior owner via PCC bamboozle.  If the PCC operators couldn't sell to us TUG-educated consumers, how could they sustain their biz model ? 

However that may be, by me taking advantage of _The Way Things Are_ on an individual TUG-educated basis does not come anywhere close to the total ethics-challenged foundation of the current timeshare industry biz model.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## tombo (Sep 29, 2010)

AwayWeGo said:


> Even so, I see a difference between institutionalized industry-wide corporate behavior & biz-modeling on the 1 hand & on the other hand what an individual timeshare owner may resort to.
> 
> For 1 thing, the regular walking-around individual timeshare owners don't systematically lure in prospects with the offer of freebies so they can inveigle them, in a premeditated, company-sponsored way, into grossly overpaying with no opportunity to attempt any kind of due diligence or comparison shopping.
> 
> ...



Of course we don't have access to body snatchers offering free gifts, we don't have a resort to take our buyers on a tour of, we don't have a professional sales staff, we can't take credit cards or finance our sales, so we will never get retail prices. However by using many different sales web sites many different prices are possible to sell the same week for. Both a TUGGER selling their week and the Developer have the same goal, and that is to get the most money for their week that they can. If a TUGGERgets much higher from a buyer than the average resale price how many feel guilty or feel that they ripped the buyer off? How many feel they should inform the buyer that there are cheaper places to buy their week like e-bay since all TUG sellers knowwhere the cheapest prices are. If just having the knowledge that someone can buy a week cheaper than you are selling it for and not informing the buyer is bad, then virtually all of us who resell a week are bad.  

By the way when I used "you" in my previous post it didn't mean you personally, it was a generalized "you" referring to anyone reading the post. Please don't think it was you specificaly I was referring to. I always like your posts and more often than not agree with them. In fact as I said I agree with your prior post in general. I have read enough of your posts to know that you would never buy any week as expensive as a Marriott Maui week, so obviously you would never have one to sell showing that the "you" I was referring to wasn't actually YOU. 

You go on lots of tours for the freebies and you seem to be so laid back that the experience doesn't get to you. Good for you. If I didn't come out so mad and with my blood pressure up I might take another tour in the future too, however that is not the case for me. My primary 2 reasons for not touring is the stress associated with the pressure sales and the time wasted on my vacation. I usually come out of the sales presentation so mad that I could bite the head off of a 10 penny nail making it too aggravating to make it worth $100 to me. For you it is worth the 90 minute misery, for me it is not. To each his own.

Anyway please understand that I love your posts and never meant "you" personally when I was giving different sales scenarios.


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## jme (Sep 29, 2010)

Inherent in the system is a disconnect, and it's evident before entering the room for the tour.  The rep is there to SELL. We are there to SEE. The rep doesn't realize it. 

We (personally) take tours to walk around the resort, or to get info on other resorts "under construction", etc. (at least in the good old days). 

The salesperson wrongly holds the presupposition that we are there to buy. That's what his bosses have drilled into him.  That's why his superiors and cohorts keep lists, charts, and all sorts of stats regarding sales figures, sales percentages, quotas, our income and waist sizes, and all the rest. 

BUT----didn't it all start like this?   I RECEIVED an unsolicited phone call on the second morning of my vacation, while I was sleeping, asking if I could please attend a meeting in return for a reward of some sort.  The caller said nothing about "coming in to BUY something". Do they ever phrase it that way? of course not.  They use any language conceivable to avoid the words sell or buy. 

Some guests go just for the reward, which is a PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE reason for going, given the nature of the initial phone call and the way the invitation was phrased. When the caller hangs up, the game changes, but someone forgot to tell the guest. 

Matter of fact, they call saying they are our CONCIERGE (has the dictionary added another meaning to that word yet?), offering any service we may need. Right there, it's a ruse. Yes, they'll call a restaurant for us, but that's just to continue and validate the disguise. Is that "kind of" deceitful?  Some might say yes. But it's the game we play....no big deal.....we can say yes or no. 

 So the "concierge" funnels us into a meeting slot, and again, the paradox begins.  Rep looks at new schedule and sees a buyer. We look at it and see an opportunity to walk around the resort and maybe learn something new about ownership, points, new Marriott plans, whatever.  When the rep discovers to his horror that we are not wishing to buy something, he might have any of several reactions--------as some guests have found, some reactions are apparently not pleasant. 

Whatever----I don't make a big deal of it------we go, talk, see, and leave. There may be questions asked and things learned. On two occasions, we made purchases of a hundred thousand dollars. Don't we get ongoing "extra credit" FOREVER for doing that? Seems as though we would. At least some sort of Thank You. 

Simply put, we are walking into their store, but we are not obligated to make a purchase any more than at our local mall.


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## AwayWeGo (Sep 29, 2010)

*Timeshare Tour Freebies Without Limit.*




tombo said:


> You go on lots of tours for the freebies and you seem to be so laid back that the experience doesn't get to you. Good for you. If I didn't come out so mad and with my blood pressure up I might take another tour in the future too, however that is not the case for me. My primary 2 reasons for not touring is the stress associated with the pressure sales and the time wasted on my vacation. Anyway please understand that I love your posts and never meant "you" personally when I was giving different sales scenarios.


Shux, Tombo, we could turn out to be right on the verge of forming a TUG-BBS _Mutual Admiration Society_. 

As you perceived, those irritating high-pressure timeshare sales tours affect us approximately the way that rainshowers affect ducks.  

It was not always like that.  

My now semi-outdated complete timeshare story reveals something about how I got that way, which has more to do with atoning for my past behavior than with true laid-backness.  

When we were newly married & poor (or feeling poor), The Chief Of Staff was interested in promotional timeshare tours, etc., as a way of enjoying weekends away that we otherwise could not afford.  Instead of being the totally cooperative & supportive life partner that I am today, back then I did so much fussing & moaning & complaining, etc., that I pretty much spoiled things for both of us.  That is, I let the timeshare sellers' psychological manipulations get my goat &  that left me feeling bad. 

Ever since the modern timeshare tour era began (The Chief Of Staff's & Mine  -- 2002), I've been overcompensating for that, & that has lots more to do with going on timeshare tours today just for the freebies than any idea of getting back at the full-freight timeshare sellers by touring without any intention of buying -- not that there's anything wrong with that. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## SueDonJ (Sep 29, 2010)

We visit with our salesperson whenever we're on Hilton Head, simply because she's a nice person and has a great deal of knowledge about all the different ways to maximize usage of our Marriott timeshares.  We LIKE to see her!  And both she and we were aggravated with the "concierge" who, when we told her before our last trip that we wouldn't be buying and would call our sales rep when we got in, told us that the time block being booked was an "informational session only."  Of course it wasn't scheduled that way, but we and our sales rep got it all straightened out within the first five minutes and then had a nice visit. 

We don't like scheduling sales tours at every resort we visit because we have no intention of buying more Weeks or Points or whatever they're trying to sell.  What we do when we want to just tour a nearby resort/different unit is ask the resort GM if s/he can set up an employee to help us for the fifteen minutes or so to do that.  Sometimes it works.  If it doesn't, then we decide if it's worth a presentation or not depending on our plans for the week.  But if we do schedule a presentation, then we let them know we will not be making an immediate decision either way before we sit back and listen.  Most of the time you can tell if the rep is knowledgeable enough to get into a discussion about actual usage - if yes, we can talk for hours about how much we enjoy and use our Marriott timeshares.    If no, we sit there without making any comments at all.   

Of all the places I've read about on TUG, Ko 'Olina is the ONLY one at which I would never engage any of the employees for a tour or info.  Why invite misery?


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## windje2000 (Sep 29, 2010)

kjd said:


> The sales department at some of the Marriott locations did show us a model unit with the understanding that we just wanted to see what the unit looked like.  We have done this several times to see a three bedroom layout.  Our motive is for trading purposes.  *The sales department in those instances was most gracious* and we did not expect any incentives from Marriott.
> 
> However, in other cases we were told that we had to hear the sales presentation or we could not see the model unit.  We were told that a salesperson had to be present when we toured the model and time is money to them.  (That's understandable within certain limits)



Had the same experience when I was staying in Barony and walked into SurfWatch from the beach wanting to just see the showers.

A very gracious salesman we literally walked into showed us the model.  I still have his card. 

If I decide to enroll in DClub, I plan to call him to see if he gets any sales credit for enrollees.


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## kjd (Sep 29, 2010)

With no desire to start one of those inane and worthless discussions about advice that you should never buy a timeshare directly from the developer, it should be remembered that timesharing has/is undergoing significant change.

Several years ago there were very large incentives to purchase directly from the developer.  Often, timeshare projects were sold pre-construction and occupancy was more than a year or two from the closing.  Retail prices were increased frequently.  Furthermore, the resale market was a lot higher in price relative to a direct purchase than it is now.  Times have changed and IMO resale markets are a lot more attractive at the present time.  The resale market appears to have collapsed.

Most of my purchases were resale.  However, there were many good reasons for those who purchased directly from the developer.  There is no good reason to denigrate others who freely chose to deal with Marriott and knew what they were doing at the time they bought. The same criticism can be leveled at anyone who buys a new car.  What's the difference if you buy a depreciating asset used or new?  After a period of usage they are both worthless.

Someone who buys a deeded timeshare, pays more initially and uses it for a longer time than someone else will generally have a lower yearly cost of ownership than the other person.  That's why IMO a person is not a dummy for purchasing from the developer if they have a long range plan for ownership.  Anyway, if they were that dumb they wouldn't have the money to buy one in the first place.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 29, 2010)

The reasons we don't go on timeshare tours anymore is it's not worth the time, aggravation and lies.  

Our last tour was with a scumbag Marriott salesperson at Harbour Lake, Orlando.  

The staff hounded us at 8:00 every morning (that's 6:00 a.m. Denver time, so we were often asleep after being at the parks late the nights before).  I said we weren't interested, they kept upping the ante.  Finally we go and are treated to horrible lies about Marriott points that our poor son was actually believing, and I knew couldn't be true.  I kept telling our son the truth, every time the salesman disappeared.  

I get sick of the constant nagging. I have never been on a Hilton, a Diamond, or a Summer Bay tour, and we have been to all of those resorts in Orlando several times.  If Hilton would waive the 1-in-4 for my exchanges into their resorts, I might consider purchasing points resale, but no, you don't get that waived.


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## tombo (Sep 29, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> The reasons we don't go on timeshare tours anymore is it's not worth the time, aggravation and lies.
> 
> Our last tour was with a scumbag Marriott salesperson at Harbour Lake, Orlando.
> 
> ...



I agree that it is not worth the time, aggravation, or lies for $100 or so gift. 

I also tire of the phone calls so we unplug the phones when we arrive. Anyone calling me that I need to talk to will call mine or my wife's cell phones. Anyone calling on the room phone is unimportant. Once or twice a week I plug the phone in and check our messages which are usually 100% people trying to get us to come to a timeshare tour. After checking the messages the phone is unplugged again. Sleep as late as you want every day of your vacation with no worries of being bothered by the phone.


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## SueDonJ (Sep 29, 2010)

tombo said:


> I agree that it is not worth the time, aggravation, or lies for $100 or so gift.
> 
> I also tire of the phone calls so we unplug the phones when we arrive. Anyone calling me that I need to talk to will call mine or my wife's cell phones. Anyone calling on the room phone is unimportant. Once or twice a week I plug the phone in and check our messages which are usually 100% people trying to get us to come to a timeshare tour. After checking the messages the phone is unplugged again. Sleep as late as you want every day of your vacation with no worries of being bothered by the phone.



It's funny but we've never gotten a call on the unit phone to schedule a sales presentation - maybe because we've gotten calls at home prior to the trips from the "concierge?"  The calls that drive me bonkers are the ones from the Activities Team.  Every night they do those robo-calls so you don't hear the ringer but at some point you see the blinking message light.  Call in and it's somebody reading the next day's schedule.  At SW you can hit the number to delete the message before it ends but at Barony you have to listen to the whole spiel before deleting.  Blah.


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## tombo (Sep 29, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> It's funny but we've never gotten a call on the unit phone to schedule a sales presentation - maybe because we've gotten calls at home prior to the trips from the "concierge?"  The calls that drive me bonkers are the ones from the Activities Team.  Every night they do those robo-calls so you don't hear the ringer but at some point you see the blinking message light.  Call in and it's somebody reading the next day's schedule.  At SW you can hit the number to delete the message before it ends but at Barony you have to listen to the whole spiel before deleting.  Blah.



I never delete any of mine. The next guest can see the flashing light, retrieve my messages, and get invited to the informational meeting that I missed. Perhaps the next occupant likes to take the tours and maybe they have upped the freebies while trying to get me to attend during my stay.


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## CarolF (Sep 29, 2010)

.snickers said:


> I am 100% commissioned.  ...
> 
> In every case, I could have been helping and closing someone else.  However,  I chose to do 100% commission.  I have gone a month without any closings even though I have spent days, weekends and evenings answering questions.  Why do I stay?  Because I close many loans the next period around.  I know the odds.  I chose what I do.  My clients never bear the blunt of an "off" period.  Any salesman who is quick draw on the attitude will never last anyway.  He needs to lose his job.  Why would a "salesman" stay anyway if he couldn't make it with the numbers Marriott brings thru him?  A sales force is designed with the averages they expect from their past numbers.
> 
> ...



That sums the situation up for me.  

The salesman chose the boom or bust (100% commission) job.  People who can't stomach it, need to find different work.

No reason to feel bad about not buying, you still supported the street body snatchers or phone marketers.  

Abusive staff need to be dealt with by Marriott.


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## a1000monkeys (Oct 1, 2010)

Luckybee said:


> On another note....just read Spike's post to my dh....who feels you deserve alot of credit....lol....he says that the salesman wouldnt have made it to the
> 3rd "stupid" with him



I agree.  Spike showed serious restraint.  His presentation is not unlike a presentation I had a few years ago at Hilton in Hawaii.  After the sales guy realized he wasn't going to make the sale he turned to insults.  It nearly came to blows.

We're done with tours.  While I'm still tempted by the free goodies my wife has threatened divorce if I ever take her on another tour.  A $100 certificate just isn't worth that headache.


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## LisaRex (Oct 2, 2010)

My husband is 100% commissioned "financial advisor" aka "stock broker."  He'd be thrilled if potential investors who had no interest in signing with him came to his office and then left after just 90 minutes.  Instead, he gets to spend hours analyzing their portfolios to come up with a solid gameplan based on their unique circumstances. Then he spend his evenings and weekends (when he could be fishing) driving to their homes, answering their questions and offering up advice and recommendations based on his twenty years of experience, only to have them take his card, thank him for his time...and then open up an e*trade account to execute his gameplan. 

Heck, giving a tour at a gorgeous beachfront resort, shoving a glossy brochure in front of them, and spewing out the same rehearsed speech sounds easy compared to what he has to do on a daily basis.  

But, let me tell you, he's NEVER called a potential client "stupid."  He's never quit answering questions because he realizes that their only intention is to sponge off of him.  Because he's in sales and knows that he's never going to get a 100% return.  He knows that weeding out the hot leads from the cold leads is part of the process.  He knows that for every bit of solid, honest advice he gives, he's competing with the Bernie Madoffs of the world, who will lie, cheat and charm in order to close a deal.  

But he's also learned that being very polite and respectful today might pay off two, three, four years down the road.  He's had more than one potential client who finally realized after years of losing money, that e*trade is great if you know what you're doing and not-so-great if you don't.  And they remember him and the fact that he was patient and friendly and respectful.  

Salesman like the one in the OP have no business in sales.  And the OPer should have reported him to Marriott because he is a piss poor Marriott representative. It wasn't like he was losing another potential client -- he didn't have another one scheduled for at least 90 minutes.  So instead of copping an attitude and brushing the OPer's off, he should have answered their honest questions about the points program politely.  Because that's what _professionals_ do.


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## KathyPet (Oct 2, 2010)

I went to the Owner's Forum run by the GM at GO when we were there in September.  I found out everything I wanted to know about what was going on at GO.  THere were lots of questions about the new points program as well as questions about future Marriott resorts.  All the questions were answered by the GM and guess what???   I didn't have to sit through a 90 minute sales pitch.  There are other ways to get the information you want besides going to a sales presentation from someone who probably doesn't know what they are talking about anyway.


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## bdh (Oct 2, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> It means NEVER buying retail. Never.



You do realize that if a retail purchase NEVER occured that there can NEVER be a resale purchase.

Just saying


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 2, 2010)

*Yeh, Maybe At 1 Time.  But That's All In The Past.*




bdh said:


> You do realize that if a retail purchase NEVER occured that there can NEVER be a resale purchase.
> 
> Just saying


If no more full-freight timeshare sales happened at all _-- zip, zilch, zorch, zero, nil, null, none, nada, not any --_ there are still plenty of timeshare units around already to satisfy resale timeshare ownership demand now & far into the future. 

The 1 thing that is no longer needed in the world of timeshare vacationing is timeshare companies. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## dioxide45 (Oct 2, 2010)

bdh said:


> You do realize that if a retail purchase NEVER occured that there can NEVER be a resale purchase.
> 
> Just saying



Also if no retail units were sold, then developers would have to start charging far less to sell them. So their prices may come more in line with resale.


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## timeos2 (Oct 2, 2010)

*It's 2010 and we do not need new inventory anywhere*



bdh said:


> You do realize that if a retail purchase NEVER occured that there can NEVER be a resale purchase.
> 
> Just saying



Do you think there is a need for even ONE more timeshare week to be built & sold at this time or, maybe with tens of thousands looking for owners to pay for them and going begging, it makes more sense to get supply in line with demand? Of course there had to be retail purchases at some time or resale wouldn't exist. 

But we're talking TODAY - TODAY a retail purchase of any timeshare makes zero sense 99%+ of the time. It gets you nothing that resale doesn't except higher overall lifetime cost. How does ignoring that make sense? Why do we care today if a new resort is built or not - we're dealing with existing resorts and existing obligations that are going un-met. That is the bottom line, not trumped up retail pricing supporting unwanted and unneeded inventory adding to the already crushing supply struggling to just continue to survive.


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## OutAndAbout (Oct 3, 2010)

SpikeMauler said:


> He acted like a fith grader pouting and sulking, slunk in his chair. All in all not a good experience and I never did learn anymore about the point system. On a brighter note we really like the resort and might be looking to buy a resale week here .



It's a same anytime anyone acts like this.  It's great that you tried to keep it professional



tombo said:


> Most TUGGERS (in fact most Americans) have never had to work hard for days or weeks for zero income because they made zero sales and don't understand the feeling. Most Americans have a job where they get paid everytime they go to work.



Great points.  I don't share your opinion on everything you said, but I think made some very valid points and there is ZERO need to attack you or a need for you to have to offend your points.


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## indyhorizons (Oct 3, 2010)

I have followed this thread for a couple days.  We have long ago taken Tombo's position that our vacation time is too valuable to spend any of it talking to someone (high pressure no doubt) about something we have no intention of doing.  This started when we were only taking 1 week vacations.  7 days is really not a long time and before you know it you're packing your bags to go home. Do you really want to spend 1/2 day talking to a salesman if you know you're not going to buy? I know this is a personal decision, but on this note I agree with Tombo 100%.  We used to go on them, but soon found it wasn't worth the (fill in the blank with the offer du jour).  Certainly, to each his or her own.

Now, where Tombo and I differ (I have never been in sales) is the whole sympathy story about taking up the salesman's time.  They certainly have no problems taking up mine. (If/when I take tours, we do not anymore). Maybe, as someone has pointed out, Marriott should relax their requirement of spendiing 90 mins with each couple.  I do realize that some people can be "worn" down, but if the couple is honest up front and tells you that they are only there for the free gifts, cut your losses and move on to the next person, maybe the salesman will have success with. So on this, I blame the company and not the salesman or the prospect. If everyone is up front and honest about their intentions, there wouldn't be so many bad feelings.  Just my two cents...


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## dioxide45 (Oct 3, 2010)

indyhorizons said:


> Now, where Tombo and I differ (I have never been in sales) is the whole sympathy story about taking up the salesman's time.  They certainly have no problems taking up mine. (If/when I take tours, we do not anymore). Maybe, as someone has pointed out, Marriott should relax their requirement of spendiing 90 mins with each couple.  I do realize that some people can be "worn" down, but if the couple is honest up front and tells you that they are only there for the free gifts, cut your losses and move on to the next person, maybe the salesman will have success with. So on this, I blame the company and not the salesman or the prospect. If everyone is up front and honest about their intentions, there wouldn't be so many bad feelings.  Just my two cents...



The problem is that when walking in to a presentation 99.9999% of the people have no intention to buy. Though in the end 1 in 10 (10%) walk out the door as happy new owners. So if everyone who answered up front that they didn't plan to buy was just allowed to walk out, there would be very few sales.


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## bdh (Oct 3, 2010)

Regarding the stupid salesman of the OP; as other sales people have noted, he doesn't comprehend how sales work and will most likely soon be in the ranks of the unemployed.

Regarding taking the TS tour/presentation; it's about personal preference, if you deem it not worth your vacation time, so be it - if the next guy can't wait to go to receive the gift, so be it.    


Moving on:



AwayWeGo said:


> If no more full-freight timeshare sales happened at all _-- zip, zilch, zorch, zero, nil, null, none, nada, not any --_ there are still plenty of timeshare units around already to satisfy resale timeshare ownership demand now & far into the future.



Just like in the auto industry, there are new car dealers and used car dealers - they co-exist as they each satisfy a segment of the market.  So while there are lots of Yugo’s available on the TS resale market, developers are still selling full-freight Cadillac weeks.  I realize an auto is a necessity these days and TS has always been a luxury, however the Cadillacs (auto & TS) still sell – my only explanation for both (auto & TS) is that I guess not everyone wants a Yugo.     



dioxide45 said:


> Also if no retail units were sold, then developers would have to start charging far less to sell them. So their prices may come more in line with resale.



The new models will have more and better features than the old ones (not talking about Marriott’s smoke and mirrors – I’m talking about a legitimate new product) and due to the slump in the economy/market, the price will be lower then what they were selling for when there was a robust economy - since it will be a better bang for the buck when compared to the old ones, they will still be able to sell them at a retail price.  As noted above, I can’t explain why everyone doesn’t drive a Yugo.



timeos2 said:


> Do you think there is a need for even ONE more timeshare week to be built & sold at this time or, maybe with tens of thousands looking for owners to pay for them and going begging, it makes more sense to get supply in line with demand?



The economy has exposed a multitude of TS properties/weeks that were of questionable value to begin with (few people want/need a week at Ted Kaczynski's cabin). When the basic law of nature that only the strong survive is applied to them, alot of them will cease to exist – or you can buy them for a buck.  Apply mankind's (AKA "developer") ability to improve a product with real estate’s axiom of “location, location, location”, and there will be/are new properties built. As noted above, they will sell for retail.



PS: I’ve never bought a retail week – but I do like Cadillacs.  So I don’t condemn the retail developer or purchaser – in fact, I love both of them.  My comments above are facts of reality – it’s your choice if you want to believe them or not.  

PSS: You don’t need to convince me (or the typical TUG member) of anything on the retail/resale topic.  But I think you have a lot of work ahead of you if you’re going to convince the new car dealer/developer that they don’t exist.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 3, 2010)

*In The Timeshare Biz, There Is No "New & "Used."  (They're All Used-Used-Used.)*




bdh said:


> Just like in the auto industry, there are new car dealers and used car dealers - they co-exist as they each satisfy a segment of the market.


Actually, that is 1 way in which the timeshare biz is completely unlike the auto industry.  

Newly titled cars really are new.  Newly deeded timeshare units, not so much.  That is, by the time the "new" owner shows up & checks in, other people will have already been staying previously in that very same unit, meaning the unit might still be newish & in good condition, but no way is it new.  

The truth of the matter is that after the 1st-week occupants check out, all timeshares are _used-used-used_ any way you shake it, erasing any distinction between newly deeded units & resale units at the same resort and making ridiculous the idea of paying new prices for (non-new) timeshares.  

The car biz is entirely different.  

New cars start out genuinely new.  Very soon they become used, then in time they crash or get worn out & used up & scrapped.  Timeshares, not so much.  In fact, the money needed for continual upgrades & renovations to keep timeshares in good condition is built up via the Reserves component of the owners' regular maintenance fee payments. 

True, all Yugos are _used-used-used_ --- because that brand is no longer made.  Other than Yugo, however, the choice of new or used us up to you. Kia to Cadillac, Fiat to Maybach -- if you pay new prices you actually get new cars.  Timeshares, by contrast, from humble to grand are only new 1 week, then nothing but _used-used-used_ after those initial occupants leave. 

BTW, I know somebody who actually did stay in a new timeshare unit 1 time -- the real deal, a unit where nobody had ever stayed before.  As it happens, that was on RCI exchange.  So by the time any of the 51 owners of that unit showed up, it was _used-used-used_, just like all the other timeshare units out there. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## mkahanek (Oct 3, 2010)

*You are correct*



dioxide45 said:


> The problem is that when walking in to a presentation 99.9999% of the people have no intention to buy. Though in the end 1 in 10 (10%) walk out the door as happy new owners. So if everyone who answered up front that they didn't plan to buy was just allowed to walk out, there would be very few sales.



In 2004 my former room mate and I were 34 year old guys.  Took advantage of a 599 offer from Marriott to "preview" Ko Olina.  Our intention was to make a golf trip out of it and drink lots of booze.   We get there.  Get our $50 marriott $$ and if we want another $50 we need to take a tour.  Being a couple of single dudes on somewhat of a budget and wanting to take a few penny's off our golf cost we agree.  Now, how many single 34 year old guys do you think are serious about spending $$$$$ on a timeshare???  Let alone qualify.  So we go on the tour with the sole idea of taking the $50 and bolting.  Our sales guy was up front and said if at any point during the tour and presentation we think this is not for us tell him and we can call it quits.  Take our $50 and go.  We elect to hear it out.  At the end we bought what was termed as 50/50..  Basically a week deeded to both.   Just about everyone is a slim opportunity.  We were not beat down or whatever.  We just started to see some value.  We did NOT see value from a $$ perspective.  We saw value from a future with our girlfriends or wives and forcing ourselves to take vacations.  Since them I am a happy owner who bought developer.  Would I buy developer again.  Probably not although I was tempted this past feb to buy an EOY to compliment my 50/50.   So, do I have a problem going and sitting through a presentation and taking whatever they offer? No, because there is always a slim chance I will see value in a purchase.  Everyones view of value is different.  My view was basically "forced" to take vacations and having a resource for when I was married (which I now am).   Since marriage my wife have used hawaii twice, aruba, ocean point and St. Thomas with a Waiohai coming up.   The value I saw in 2004 has be realized.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 3, 2010)

*Rescinda-Sinda-Sinda ?*




dioxide45 said:


> The problem is that when walking in to a presentation 99.9999% of the people have no intention to buy. Though in the end 1 in 10 (10%) walk out the door as happy new owners.


How many of those stay happy & how many rescind during the cooling off period ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## taffy19 (Oct 3, 2010)

I believe that more people rescind today than used to be in earlier years. The reason is the Internet. :whoopie:

People will do a search and arrive here (TUG) or find complaints at some of the other BBs too for the Marriott timeshares as well as other developers too. Just Google the brand name.


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## indyhorizons (Oct 3, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> The problem is that when walking in to a presentation 99.9999% of the people have no intention to buy. Though in the end 1 in 10 (10%) walk out the door as happy new owners. So if everyone who answered up front that they didn't plan to buy was just allowed to walk out, there would be very few sales.



Actually I didn't say that you should say I don't intend to buy. I said they should say: I am only here for the gift.  There is a fundamental difference here (IMHO)...


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## dioxide45 (Oct 3, 2010)

indyhorizons said:


> Actually I didn't say that you should say I don't intend to buy. I said they should say: I am only here for the gift.  There is a fundamental difference here (IMHO)...



But those same 99.9999% of people that say they don't intend to buy would also say they are only there for the free gift if they knew it would get them out of the presentation lickity-split.


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## billymach4 (Oct 3, 2010)

iconnections said:


> I believe that more people rescind today than used to be in earlier years. The reason is the Internet. :whoopie:
> 
> People will do a search and arrive here (TUG) or find complaints at some of the other BBs too for the Marriott timeshares as well as other developers too. Just Google the brand name.



Yes I agree Emmy!

The internet is the great equalizer. I am sure one can draw a direct relationship between the growth of the internet, and decrease in developer sales.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 3, 2010)

billymach4 said:


> Yes I agree Emmy!
> 
> The internet is the great equalizer. I am sure one can draw a direct relationship between the growth of the internet, and decrease in developer sales.



I don't know about that. The Internet had been around for quite a while and has been growing. Up until 2008 developer sales were growing and reached their peak. So I don't think the lack of developer sales is related in any way right now to the Internet. It has more to do with the economy.


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## windje2000 (Oct 3, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> The problem is that when walking in to a presentation 99.9999% of the people have no intention to buy. Though in the end 1 in 10 (10%) walk out the door as happy new owners. So if everyone who answered up front that they didn't plan to buy was just allowed to walk out, there would be very few sales.



The closing efficiency or batting average is 50% better than 10%, at least in the five years ended 2007 per a Marriott February 2008 presentation to Wall Street analysts.

These data are management representations to stock analysts and are expected to be accurate, and are certainly more reliable than what the sales folks say.

From the transcript of a talk by Lee Cunningham, Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer, North America and Caribbean Timeshare, Marriott Vacation Club International -- Marriott International Timeshare Analyst Day, February 26, 2008



> I know that many of our competitors continue to talk about closing efficiency, that is the percentage of customers who buy following a tour. Certainly closing efficiency is an important metric but we have found that a balanced approach to lowering overall marketing and sales costs is much more effective. Our closing efficiency has dropped two percentage points over the last five years from roughly 17 percent in 2002 to 15 percent in 20072. During that same time period, our marketing and sales costs have also dropped as a percentage of sales from roughly 47 percent to 42 percent. We are happy with those results and will continue to focus on any opportunity that we have to lower our overall marketing and sales expenses.



http://files.shareholder.com/downlo...1-0d479dc008a9/TimeshareTranscript2-26-08.pdf  Page 10

Lots of interesting data in this document


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## dioxide45 (Oct 3, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> The closing efficiency or batting average is 50% better than 10%, at least in the five years ended 2007 per a Marriott February 2008 presentation to Wall Street analysts.
> 
> These data are management representations to stock analysts and are expected to be accurate, and are certainly more reliable than what the sales folks say.
> 
> ...



This was 2007 data, so I wonder where they are at in 2010?


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## windje2000 (Oct 3, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> This was 2007 data, so I wonder where they are at in 2010?



Someone posted reporting 'sales speak' that 60% have enrolled and half of that 60% purchased points.  I'm not believing that.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 3, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Someone posted reporting 'sales speak' that 60% have enrolled and half of that 60% purchased points.  I'm not believing that.



I can buy the 60% enrolled, but definitely not the 60% purchase points.


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## Luckybee (Oct 4, 2010)

Im betting it isnt near either(at least not as far as Aruba is concerned) . Spoke with someone recently who just got back from the Aruba Ocean Club. They were there 2 weeks and have owned as long as we have which is since inception, which means they know alot of other owners. Acc'd to them no one they spoke who were aware of the DC had anything positive to say about the program. Although most didnt have the details or the various "spins" the biggest thing she heard was that it seemed to be a "money grab" and that Marriott wasnt giving an owner anything for the $. Most interesting was that acc'd to my friend half the owners they spoke with still hadnt heard about it at all(same situation we'd be in if it wasnt for Tug....Im still waiting for material....lol). Perhaps the OC isnt a good sampling of properties overall but if it is then there are still quite a few owners still completely in the dark.


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## SpikeMauler (Oct 4, 2010)

Luckybee said:


> Im betting it isnt near either(at least not as far as Aruba is concerned) . Spoke with someone recently who just got back from the Aruba Ocean Club. They were there 2 weeks and have owned as long as we have which is since inception, which means they know alot of other owners. Acc'd to them no one they spoke who were aware of the DC had anything positive to say about the program. Although most didnt have the details or the various "spins" the biggest thing she heard was that it seemed to be a "money grab" and that Marriott wasnt giving an owner anything for the $. Most interesting was that acc'd to my friend half the owners they spoke with still hadnt heard about it at all(same situation we'd be in if it wasnt for Tug....Im still waiting for material....lol). Perhaps the OC isnt a good sampling of properties overall but if it is then there are still quite a few owners still completely in the dark.



I was told by the salesman(see post #1) that they were getting 80% to 85% of the owners at Surf Club & Ocean Club who took the tour to convert to points.


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## modoaruba (Oct 4, 2010)

We were told just the opposite by a salesman there.
He told us deeded weeks were more valuble and especially if one returns annually there is no need to change to points.You actually loose value by doing so.


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## SpikeMauler (Oct 4, 2010)

modoaruba said:


> We were told just the opposite by a salesman there.
> He told us deeded weeks were more valuble and especially if one returns annually there is no need to change to points.You actually loose value by doing so.



Yeah, he told the Surf Club was 90% owner occupied and most owners return yearly and don't trade out. He then said, of the owners who take the tour 80%(+)  convert. Maybe he meant all owners(home and traders). Still, his numbers seem pretty high.


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## Luckybee (Oct 4, 2010)

SpikeMauler said:


> Yeah, he told the Surf Club was 90% owner occupied and most owners return yearly and don't trade out. He then said, of the owners who take the tour 80%(+)  convert. Maybe he meant all owners(home and traders). Still, his numbers seem pretty high.



Were his lips moving ?


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