# Marriott's Lifetime Gift to Resale Owners!



## FractionalTraveler (Apr 15, 2012)

There was a time in the not too distant past (prior to DC announcement) where many resale owners complained vigorously about how Marriott was allegedly treating them as second class citizens.  The list of alleged inequities went on and on forever and the discussions on TUG raged for years on this topic.

Then came the DC announcement and with the introduction of the new Points based OPTIONAL ENHANCEMENT, resale owners were provided the gift of a lifetime *IMHO.*

Resale owners of units purchased prior to June 20, 2010 were automatically given the opportunity to join the DC for pennies on the dollar.

I wonder how Developer purchased customers must have felt when they heard this news?  In the height of the real estate boom many of these same Marriott's direct purchasers spent $30K on Timeshares.

Why should someone as a resale owner (WHO PAID THOUSANDS LESS) for the same Platinum Ski week, enjoy the same privleges as the owner who paid a premium?

That is Marriott's lifetime gift to resale owners!


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## EducatedConsumer (Apr 15, 2012)

I've read your trail of postings, and I wonder if you work for Marriott, and if so, what you do?


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## KathyPet (Apr 15, 2012)

Well it wasn't exactly a give a way.  Resale owners paid quite a bit more to enroll their weeks that those who bought direct.


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## EKniager (Apr 15, 2012)

This is just nonsense.  Not sure what you are bitter about but I am a happy owner of a developer and a re-sale unit.  We are quite comfortable with the value of our investments.  Since trading weeks for MR points makes zero economic sense (versus renting) there has never been a difference to us.


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## puckmanfl (Apr 15, 2012)

good morning....

Yikes... not another resale V. developer purchaser thread!!!

I purchased developer and am happy (although I wish i knew about resale)...I wish nothing but success to my Tugger friends that were smart enough to do resale!!!

The best to everybody..no animosity here!!!


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## SueDonJ (Apr 15, 2012)

OK, well, I'll be first to admit it.  I've cried myself to sleep every night since 6/20/10.  "Oh woe is me, how COULD Marriott have hurt me this way?!"  <flailing, gnashing, sobbing>

Good gravy.   

"It is what it is."  You can say it about practically every aspect of timesharing.  All that matters is if you're happy with what you own, regardless of whether you bought it direct or as an external resale.  If whatever you own gets you a little something extra from Marriott, enjoy it while you can because chances are Marriott will change it eventually - they always do.  If you're unhappy about something it's nice to have TUG as an outlet to vent, but the sooner you accept reality and move on, the happier you'll be.


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## Whirl (Apr 15, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> There was a time in the not too distant past (prior to DC announcement) where many resale owners complained vigorously about how Marriott was allegedly treating them as second class citizens.  The list of alleged inequities went on and on forever and the discussions on TUG raged for years on this topic.
> 
> Then came the DC announcement and with the introduction of the new Points based OPTIONAL ENHANCEMENT, resale owners were provided the gift of a lifetime *IMHO.*
> 
> ...



"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Recognizing that, I agree, from my perspective although I may not state it quite so empahtically, recognizing the not everyone may see it that way. 
One should not expect to get something for nothing. Options are never free. Yes, I had to pay for the new option. There is negligible downside and potentially huge upside for me, so the option had a future value potential. 

Retrospectively (and in practice) it has proven to be even more valuable and offerred more flexibilty, ease , and successful exchanges in the last a
last 2  years for us than in the 12 years we have owned. Circumstances and preferences change and you really have no certainty about your needs going forward. They change. I have seen it here and personally repeatedly.  If you can afford it,I recommend buying the option....its a type of insurance.


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## pwrshift (Apr 15, 2012)

*A 'widow' week!*

I know someone who bought 3 platinum resale Manor Club originals on eBay...2 of them before the DC deadline.  His total investment was less than $1400 and he asked me what to do about the DC plan.  I advised him to forget about joining as one of the weeks would always be outside the plan...the price just to join the other 2 to the plan costs more than he paid for all of them...and he'd still have a 'widow' week.

Sure, there's nothing to be gained crying over the past.  Just don't trust Marriott anymore as they've shown how little respect they had for their customers in the past, and will do the same tomorrow to their new and less informed owners.  

As I ponder joining for the wrong reason...to save on the enrollment fee...it bothers me to give Marriott more money just to 'belong' and hope for the best.  Fool me twice...shame on me.  The only gift you'll get from Marriott is long gone...trust.


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## timeos2 (Apr 15, 2012)

That's ridiculous. An owner is an owner no matter how they may have purchased. They pay the same fees and have the same use rights. If you thought it made sense to pay retail (& get the chance at travel points) while someone else saw equal or better value to the savings of resale what does that matter to Marriott (or you)? 

If you now think you overpaid that's your problem. Marriott is out to get owners & make money. Treating all owners as owners is the only way that makes sense. There is no difference based on how someone buys or what they paid.


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## scpoidog (Apr 15, 2012)

*What's your point?*



FractionalTraveler said:


> There was a time in the not too distant past (prior to DC announcement) where many resale owners complained vigorously about how Marriott was allegedly treating them as second class citizens.  The list of alleged inequities went on and on forever and the discussions on TUG raged for years on this topic.
> 
> Then came the DC announcement and with the introduction of the new Points based OPTIONAL ENHANCEMENT, resale owners were provided the gift of a lifetime *IMHO.*
> 
> ...



This is two years too late. What's the point of bringing this up now?


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## SueDonJ (Apr 15, 2012)

Just a reminder here, too, that the Marriott Rewards Points exchange option (which is the only difference between direct and resale purchases) is in no way a guaranteed lifetime benefit for any Weeks.  It's always been an add-on to direct purchases and now it's an add-on to enrolled external resales as well.  The related amendments state unequivocally that the benefit can be modified or terminated by Marriott at any time.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 15, 2012)

And one more thing - some of us who purchased direct did so because the particular intervals we wanted to own were not available through the external resale market at the time we purchased.  For us it's just not true that we were uninformed or that we placed an unrealistic premium on the MRP exchange benefit.

If at that particular time we were more concerned with protecting our "investment dollars" than in being able to guarantee a certain unit configuration in a certain season at a certain resort, then we could and probably would have looked more closely at the external market.


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## gblotter (Apr 15, 2012)

I own both developer and resale weeks, so I guess I'll just have to be resentful of myself.


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## m61376 (Apr 15, 2012)

I guess people who bought resale 3-6 years ago should be resentful of those who bought resale the last half of 2009 and the first half of 2010, because they paid less. 

I do feel that grandfathering prior resale owners was a good move by Marriott both financially and PR-wise. i also feel it is something that current resale owners should strongly consider when debating whether or not to join over the next month or so, because it may land up being a time limited opportunity at some point, and non-members may land up being second class citizens, so to speak, at some point in the future (or everything could stay status quo).


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## somerville (Apr 15, 2012)

As a resale owner, I didn't find Marriott's "gift of a lifetime" to be worth the price, and opted not to join the DC.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 15, 2012)

Marriott devalued their own product when they decided resale owners were not to be given the same rights as developer buyers.  

It's amazing to think about.  Consider the irony of it.  You sell your week to someone who can use it, and the things you found valuable about owning do not transfer to your buyer.  So you have to sell it for far less, sometimes 95% less.  

It's part of what makes timeshare such a sleazy product.  That's my opinion as a person who only buys resale.  Sleazy me.  

My feelings are not just toward Marriott, but to every company who devalues their product in such a way, including DVC (we own), Starwood (we own and bought cheap), and Wyndham (resale buyers don't get VIP status of the previous owner).


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## Smooth Air (Apr 15, 2012)

[Text deleted at request of poster]


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## KathyPet (Apr 15, 2012)

gblotter said:


> I own both developer and resale weeks, so I guess I'll just have to be resentful of myself.



 Me too!  Perhaps we could share a corner and be resentful of each other????


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## brigechols (Apr 15, 2012)

I tried ignoring FractionalTraveler but the ignore feature doesn't work when someone quotes the post. FractionalTraveler should take this complaint to Marriott and stop stirring a two year old pot of snipes and gripes.


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## jlf58 (Apr 15, 2012)

So 3 of the biggest hotel companies in the world screwed up ? Maybe they should have called you first for your opinion  





rickandcindy23 said:


> Marriott devalued their own product when they decided resale owners were not to be given the same rights as developer buyers.
> 
> It's amazing to think about.  Consider the irony of it.  You sell your week to someone who can use it, and the things you found valuable about owning do not transfer to your buyer.  So you have to sell it for far less, sometimes 95% less.
> 
> ...


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 15, 2012)

Fletch said:


> So 3 of the biggest hotel companies in the world screwed up ? Maybe they should have called you first for your opinion



Maybe so.  It seems that a company should consider the resale value when they are talking up their product.  The very nature of the timeshare sales pitch is to talk it up as something of value, then the company devalues it in the resale market, directly hurting those who fell for the pitch. 

I just bought OKW points (250) for $45 each with 2011 included.  I bought Marriott's Willow Ridge Platinum for 5% of retail.   

Sleazy me.  You are definitely a timeshare salesperson, admitted by you in many posts, so I definitely get the sarcasm.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 15, 2012)

gblotter said:


> I own both developer and resale weeks, so I guess I'll just have to be resentful of myself.





KathyPet said:


> Me too!  Perhaps we could share a corner and be resentful of each other????



You two made me laugh right out loud.  Love it!  :hysterical:


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## dioxide45 (Apr 15, 2012)

I know early on after the DC announcement, that there were several direct purchasers that were very upset with Marriott and wrote letters to Marriott to voice their displeasure. They were sold the weeks based on the fact that resale purchasers couldn't trade for MRPs and that by buying direct they were also thus buying this option that they couldn't get from a resale.


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## billymach4 (Apr 15, 2012)

EducatedConsumer said:


> I've read your trail of postings, and I wonder if you work for Marriott, and if so, what you do?



I think the OP(Fractional Traveler) does owe us full disclosure.


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## GregT (Apr 15, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> I know early on after the DC announcement, that there were several direct purchasers that were very upset with Marriott and wrote letters to Marriott to voice their displeasure.



Yes indeed, +1 for me.   

[deleted skim comments -- not worth rehashing....]

and I don't think FT is a Marriott sales person, I think he is just very passionate about his timeshares.  Please recall that FT transferred me 25 Trust Points for an experiment and I doubt a Marriott sales person would transfer me 25 TPs.

Best to all,

Greg


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## kjd (Apr 15, 2012)

What's the difference what you paid for a timeshare or what someone else paid? What you did was your own economic decision at time you made it.  The real question is "what have you gotten out of it?"  The only way to get your money's worth out of a timeshare is to enjoy it.

I do beg to differ with the comments about converting to MRP's.  It has been an advantage to me to be able to use MRP's in places where no timeshares are available.  It's simply not an economic comparison with timeshare weeks because a person may also accumulate MRP's in other ways such as the credit card use.  MRP's are not guaranteed in perpetuity but it would be difficult to imagine Marriott discontinuing the program.  These reward programs often have more value than other assets within the company.  MRP's are just another option available to us.  I say the more options we have the better.  I don't feel that I have to justify the cost in order to use them.


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## Quilter (Apr 15, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> There was a time in the not too distant past (prior to DC announcement) where many resale owners complained vigorously about how Marriott was allegedly treating them as second class citizens.  The list of alleged inequities went on and on forever and the discussions on TUG raged for years on this topic.
> 
> Then came the DC announcement and with the introduction of the new Points based OPTIONAL ENHANCEMENT, resale owners were provided the gift of a lifetime *IMHO.*
> 
> ...



What's the problem with this post?   Sounds to me FT is merely thinking out loud to his Tugger peeps.   He emphasizes the "gift of a lifetime" is his opinion.  "Why should someone as a resale owner (WHO PAID THOUSANDS LESS) for the same Platinum Ski week, enjoy the same privleges as the owner who paid a premium?" sounds rhetorical to me.   Not a statement of opinion.   But if it is, so be it.    

Sales person or not he/she has been very helpful on these forums.  I have no problem with sales people, in fact, our sales guy has become a good friend.  I think he'd even transfer 25 points.   However, we're not in total agreement on all things "Marriott".   That's fine too.

My recent disapproval with a salesguy at a presentation came from the opinion my time was wasted with twisted info and the salesguy denigrated another Marriott employee to virtual strangers.  

IMO opinions and passion are part of most Tugger's psyche.   FT fits right in.


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## jimf41 (Apr 15, 2012)

Greg,

Wow, that was a quick edit. I quoted your post and the next screen came up and you'd deleted the skim stuff already. Being the digital whiz that I am I hit the back button and just copied the part I wanted to answer.  Here goes.



Does anyone miss their 10% trading power? 

No, never really experienced much success as I define it in the trading area. My son misses the lockouts I used to deposit in II and let him use. He got some very good flextime trades out of them. For me trading the unit into II took too long to get confirmed and by the time it was the airfares had risen enough to make the trip too expensive.

Has anyone that has used points found themselves short of what they needed for the reservation?


No, every DC trade I've made has netted me extra points when it's high season to high season. When it's low season to high or mid season I'm ahead overall but occasionally I'll lose about 7% on an individual week.

And downgraded view? or shortened the trip? 

Nope, I always get ocean front view and I stay in 7 day increments.


Or gone off-season? power?

Although 3 of the 4 weeks that I use for DC points are off season I always use them for high season or mid season. As far as trade power I'm not sure that there is much of a difference in trading a week straight up vs. converting to points and reserving with that method. As far as availability and choice of view there's no contest. DC is far superior in that arena.

As far as the OP's comment about the lifetime gift thing, who cares, let's move on. If you paid 50k or 5 bucks for your unit we all pay the same MFs and we're all owners. As owners we have common interests. Those interests do not include where or how much you paid for your unit. That's history.


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## m61376 (Apr 16, 2012)

jimf41 said:


> As far as the OP's comment about the lifetime gift thing, who cares, let's move on. If you paid 50k or 5 bucks for your unit we all pay the same MFs and we're all owners. As owners we have common interests. Those interests do not include where or how much you paid for your unit. That's history.



Well said!

Jim- As for the rest- glad it has worked out for you. As I've posted, the DC itself created relative inequities. Ocean Pointe weeks fared well in the point allocation arena, and I suspect that's why you're so satisfied with what it has gotten you, which is great for you.

I really think the DC works well for some people and for others the 10% trading power from the skim that Greg mentioned only adds perhaps to the lower trading power of their points allocations, and they fare better by trading in II or even renting.

Even so, the flexibility is worth the added cost or loss of a few vacation days to some. Everyone's needs are different.


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## tjkahn (Apr 16, 2012)

EKniager said:


> ....Since trading weeks for MR points makes zero economic sense (versus renting) there has never been a difference to us.



I hope you don’t mind if I slide this thread a bit off the original topic.  I’m trying to understand the statement made by this member – and I’m sure a lot of my confusion resides in my not optimizing my rentals – primarily because I’ve viewed   I own a 2BR lock-off platinum ski week at Timber Lodge in Lake Tahoe.  I’ve rented each portion a couple of times over the last 10 years of ownership…at best, it’s a break-even proposition in terms of being able to cover my maintenance fee of roughly $1,100 a year.

If I trade the week for MR points, I’m able to book 5 nights in Hawaii with MR points in hotel rooms that would cost, conservatively speaking, $300 plus tax, and in all likelihood would cost $400 or more.  Let’s just call it $400, tax included.  That means to take the same trip and get the same room, I’d need $2,000 for my unit for the week.  I’ve never come close to that.  I would also imagine, while I’ve never tried, that trading into Hawaii is difficult to do.  So MR points come in very handy for places in high demand.

A few months ago I found TUG, and I noticed the for rent section.  I had a flexchange week I had for my studio unit, and was able to trade into a 2BR at Ocean Watch in Myrtle Beach the last week in March, my kids’ spring break week.  My family was undecided as to whether to use the week in Myrtle Beach, or to spend the week locally skiing in the Midwest.  So I thought I’d leave it to fate, and listed the week for rental here on TUG at $1,000.  It was a colossal waste of time – I didn’t get one offer.  Granted, it’s not the highest of high seasons in MB, but the resort was 100% occupied, rooms when they were available through Marriott were $279-$379 (the price went up the second weekend), but by the time March arrived, there were no rooms left.  Still not even one low-ball offer.  As luck would have it, it really turned out great because the heat wave in the Midwest melted all of the snow, and we went to Ocean Watch and had an absolute blast at a terrific resort.

But the question I have remains – how are people finding renting to be a good option, especially when put up against banking a week or trading for MR points?  I don’t anticipate needing to rent a lot, but the couple of times I did want to rent, when my kids were infants a few years ago, I listed on ebay.  I did ok, but really just covered my maintenance fee in one case when I rented the 1 BR, and fell short on the other, when I just rented the studio.  Meanwhile, Marriott is renting the units for anywhere from $150/night for a studio to $300 a night or more for the 2BR.  Obviously I don’t have the luxury of being able to list my unit on Marriott.com, but given my small sample size of what I’ve been able to achieve (I have not listed on redweek, craigslist…just ebay), renting has been a much less worthwhile economic venture than trading for points.  I’ve already been to Hawaii once on Marriott points and have enough banked for 2 more weeks.

For what it’s worth, I do plan on enrolling in DC, if anything it’s probably a wash for me in a few years because I do lock off a lot, and also trade.  Thanks in advance for the input.


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## Quilter (Apr 16, 2012)

tjkahn said:


> …at best, it’s a break-even proposition in terms of being able to cover my maintenance fee of roughly $1,100 a year.



Once your maintenance fees pass the $1K mark it becomes more economical to just buy the MR points.


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## tjkahn (Apr 16, 2012)

Quilter said:


> Once your maintenance fees pass the $1K mark it becomes more economical to just buy the MR points.



With all due respect, I'm not sure what one has to do with the other.  Why would your maintenance fee factor into a rent vs. trade for MR points decision?  You're paying your mainenance fee regardless.  Also, you can only buy 50K points per year, right?


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## Quilter (Apr 16, 2012)

tjkahn said:


> With all due respect, I'm not sure what one has to do with the other.  Why would your maintenance fee factor into a rent vs. trade for MR points decision?  You're paying your mainenance fee regardless.  Also, you can only buy 50K points per year, right?



Why don't we take this outside and discuss it by the pool?   

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1278635#post1278635


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## Whirl (Apr 16, 2012)

Quilter said:


> What's the problem with this post?   Sounds to me FT is merely thinking out loud to his Tugger peeps.   He emphasizes the "gift of a lifetime" is his opinion.  "Why should someone as a resale owner (WHO PAID THOUSANDS LESS) for the same Platinum Ski week, enjoy the same privleges as the owner who paid a premium?" sounds rhetorical to me.   Not a statement of opinion.   But if it is, so be it.
> 
> Sales person or not he/she has been very helpful on these forums.  I have no problem with sales people, in fact, our sales guy has become a good friend.  I think he'd even transfer 25 points.   However, we're not in total agreement on all things "Marriott".   That's fine too.
> 
> ...




I agree. He is just sharing an opinion. Maybe he had a good trade or maybe just feeling reflective. That is what TUG is here for.  I agreed with much of the post ( although, as I mentioned, I am more willing to acknowledge alternative views)

The point about how much paid is jsut to say that there is a potential opportunity here, regardless of what you paid or how you aquired your week, to enhance what you have.  You can add some options and flexibility that may have value, if you choose to see it..To see that however, sometimes requires letting go of old biases that may be preventing one from seeing another perspective  ( i.e. valuing an option). 

If an investment  like a stock purchase may go bad becuase management makes a few misteps, that's just the way it is. A nimble and wise investor will be able to recognize if/when the company cleans up its act and presents another opportunity, but that requires being objective. 

So maybe the OP's view was not entirely objective, but the underlying point about recognizing and evaluating an opportunity ( referred to as a "gift") was valid.
 I bought resale and developer, and I was reasonably informed about both decisions.  We loved where we owned and it worked for out for our family for many years, but was not without frustrations that the new program has eliminated. 

 Like EVERY other topic on TUG, it comes up repeatedly. WE can choose to engage in the dialogue once again or not. If we dont want to rehash it, then once can always just opt out.


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## stslc (Apr 16, 2012)

*My gift was from Ebay and the resale market*

Purchased a Gold Week at Mountainside for $450 on ebay.  Just got home from Marriott's Marbella Beach Resort in Spain on a trade using my the studio side of my gold week.  Booked Newport for next year using the 1br side.  I am pretty happy with my situation and II.  I am not tempted to spend $1500 for the points system right now.


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## gtripps (Apr 16, 2012)

*Marriot*

As a newbie to timesharing, I do find some of the abbreviations difficult to understand.  MRP I assume is Marriot Reward Points and DC is   ?  My question is If I buy Marriot re-sale today what can I get and what will I not get as compared to someone who bought direct?

Second question which Marriott's have the best trading value 1 bdrm, 2 bdrm, lockoffs and where?  And does it matter if I am looking just for trading value or should I look specifically where I would like to return the most often?

I am presently in the Wyndam Points system but I am contemplating upgrading to Marriott or HGVC.  Any thoughts on which is better?
Thanking everyone in advance for all the info past and present.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 16, 2012)

gtripps said:


> As a newbie to timesharing, I do find some of the abbreviations difficult to understand.  MRP I assume is Marriot Reward Points and DC is   ?



Destinations Club



> My question is If I buy Marriot re-sale today what can I get and what will I not get as compared to someone who bought direct?



Totally different products today. A resale bought today is a deeded week that you can use to stay at your home resort or exchange through II. If you buy direct from MVCI, you buy DC points.



> Second question which Marriott's have the best trading value 1 bdrm, 2 bdrm, lockoffs and where?  And does it matter if I am looking just for trading value or should I look specifically where I would like to return the most often?



Everyone would like this answer. Usually the best are those in popular places at popular times of year to travel. Think the ocean at Spring Break, Hawaii at Christmas/New Years. The best advice is to buy where you would be happy going to more times than not.



> I am presently in the Wyndam Points system but I am contemplating upgrading to Marriott or HGVC.  Any thoughts on which is better?
> Thanking everyone in advance for all the info past and present.



Can't help with this.


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## EKniager (Apr 16, 2012)

tjkahn said:


> I’m trying to understand the statement made by this member.



Without doing too much research to give you exact numbers let me give rough approximations, off the cuff.

2- bedroom Platinum Aruba Surf Club:
   *  MF are around $1,400
   *  Rents are $2,500-$3,500
   *  MR pts. are 75,000
   *  75,000 MR pts are worth <$1,000


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## Quilter (Apr 16, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> Quote:
> My question is If I buy Marriot re-sale today what can I get and what will I not get as compared to someone who bought direct?
> 
> Totally different products today. A resale bought today is a deeded week that you can use to stay at your home resort or exchange through II. If you buy direct from MVCI, you buy DC points.



Don't forget the combination packages offered by Marriott Resales.   Buy a good week and some DC points.   IMO these are worth looking into if someone really wants to join the New Marriott.

Oops--it's 11 p.m.   Time to give it a rest.


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## tjkahn (Apr 16, 2012)

EKniager said:


> Without doing too much research to give you exact numbers let me give rough approximations, off the cuff.
> 
> 2- bedroom Platinum Aruba Surf Club:
> *  MF are around $1,400
> ...



If you are getting $2,500 to $3,500 in proceeds when you rent, then I agree with your statement, it's a no-brainer.


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## Michigan Czar (Apr 17, 2012)

somerville said:


> As a resale owner, I didn't find Marriott's "gift of a lifetime" to be worth the price, and opted not to join the DC.



+1

Besides, the Marriott "gift of a lifetime" also will provide Marriott with access to many of our high demand weeks, so it's more about them (DC inventory) than us. Marriott gets more money and they get access to popular weeks as DC members trade those weeks into DC points.


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## EKniager (Apr 17, 2012)

tjkahn said:


> If you are getting $2,500 to $3,500 in proceeds when you rent, then I agree with your statement, it's a no-brainer.



Heck, Aruba's good but OceanWatch (Myrtle Beach) might be even better and many can drive there!  I've heard people on here talk about buying a Gold re-sale at MOW for $3-5K.  Maintenance is $900-$1,000 and the Gold August weeks still rent for $2,000 to $2,500.  (I'm pretty certain Aruba cannot be had for less than $14,000.)


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## m61376 (Apr 17, 2012)

EKniager said:


> Heck, Aruba's good but OceanWatch (Myrtle Beach) might be even better and many can drive there!  I've heard people on here talk about buying a Gold re-sale at MOW for $3-5K.  Maintenance is $900-$1,000 and the Gold August weeks still rent for $2,000 to $2,500.  (I'm pretty certain Aruba cannot be had for less than $14,000.)



The Plat. Aruba weeks are still well in the teens, but the Gold weeks are 6-9K depending on view (except the few OF weeks) and summer weeks or Thanksgiving still rent well, although a little less than mid-winter weeks. I'm not keen on buying a unit purely for renting, but it is a good option if planning on using some of the time. 

But you are right- purchase cost and MF make those two weeks of MOW a good buy. The question is is how hard is it for single week owners to reserve one of those weeks, since they clearly are more valuable than the other weeks in the season?

btw- Aruba Plat. weeks only get 75,000 MRP? I thought they received 90,000 and Gold 75,000 (not that it matters, but I was curious).


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## EKniager (Apr 17, 2012)

m61376 said:


> btw- Aruba Plat. weeks only get 75,000 MRP? I thought they received 90,000 and Gold 75,000 (not that it matters, but I was curious).



LOL, it could be.  I was just pulling numbers from memory.  90K is probably correct.  Regardless, at <$0.01 per point, it is still crappy to get less back than you pay for maintenance.


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## tjkahn (Apr 17, 2012)

EKniager said:


> Heck, Aruba's good but OceanWatch (Myrtle Beach) might be even better and many can drive there!  I've heard people on here talk about buying a Gold re-sale at MOW for $3-5K.  Maintenance is $900-$1,000 and the Gold August weeks still rent for $2,000 to $2,500.  (I'm pretty certain Aruba cannot be had for less than $14,000.)



I did drive there.  It's a fantastic resort.  But again, I listed for rent on TUG (apparently not the best place to list?) and got ZERO offers at $1K.  Spring break was in full swing, the resort was 100% occupied.  Turns out not getting an offer was the best thing that could have happened because we had perfect weather and we had a great time, especially the kids, who had no problem pulling their parents into the slightly chilly ocean water.

So I'll ask again...what did I do wrong (assuming I REALLY wanted to rent the place)?  I've always used trading for MR points as a viable option - I don't care if my maintenance fees are 10K (well, I do , but I'm just making a point)...it doesn't sit well with me to rent a mid-February ski week in Lake Tahoe for $1K when Marriott gets $300/night plus tax for the same unit.

BTW, as a Jet fan I enjoy the occaisional civil conversation with a Pats fan.  Just don't mention Tim Tebow and we'll be ok


----------



## klpca (Apr 17, 2012)

somerville said:


> As a resale owner, I didn't find Marriott's "gift of a lifetime" to be worth the price, and opted not to join the DC.



+2

We only own one Marriott week but I took one more look last night and it still makes no sense for us. Our week is white (or gold depending on how you look at it) which is fall in the desert. It is the only time of year that we can travel to the desert so we are very happy with it. It converts to 2150 points (how could we resist such an offer!). Of course the number of points needed to trade back in is 3400. Seriously? That's a bit more than a "skim" in my book. 2150 points gets you nowhere in the system. We'll just take our chances with Interval, especially since the odds are that we will use our unit at least 50% of the time.

I understand folks who own expensive units/locations not wanting us lowly white resale weeks from the desert trade in to their properties, but we can't even get back into our lowly desert properties.   Of course everyone should do what it right for them, and if it made sense, I'd be the first one to join. But I have to tell you, in our situation, the system does not seem like much of a gift to me.


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## IngridN (Apr 17, 2012)

EKniager said:


> LOL, it could be.  I was just pulling numbers from memory.  90K is probably correct.  Regardless, at <$0.01 per point, it is still crappy to get less back than you pay for maintenance.



Our gold Oceanside Aruba Surf Club gets 90K points. You had me curious so I dug out an old 2005 price list...

Plat:  OF 125K, OS 110K, OV, 110K, GV 90K
Gold: OF 100K, OS 90K, OV 90K, GV 75K

Ingrid


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## EKniager (Apr 17, 2012)

tjkahn said:


> So I'll ask again...what did I do wrong (assuming I REALLY wanted to rent the place)?





Have you tried Redweek.com or eBay?  

To be honest with you, our first approach is to offer it to friends, neighbors, relatives, golf buddies.  That seems to be the easiest and safest as long as you collect the money up front and only allow a cancellation refund if a replacement can be found.


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## brigechols (Apr 17, 2012)

tjkahn said:


> I did drive there.  It's a fantastic resort.  But again, I listed for rent on TUG (apparently not the best place to list?) and got ZERO offers at $1K.  Spring break was in full swing, the resort was 100% occupied.  Turns out not getting an offer was the best thing that could have happened because we had perfect weather and we had a great time, especially the kids, who had no problem pulling their parents into the slightly chilly ocean water.
> 
> So I'll ask again...what did I do wrong (assuming I REALLY wanted to rent the place)?  I've always used trading for MR points as a viable option - I don't care if my maintenance fees are 10K (well, I do , but I'm just making a point)...it doesn't sit well with me to rent a mid-February ski week in Lake Tahoe for $1K when Marriott gets $300/night plus tax for the same unit.
> 
> BTW, as a Jet fan I enjoy the occaisional civil conversation with a Pats fan.  Just don't mention Tim Tebow and we'll be ok



I will take a stab at answering your question. Reading through your posts, it appears that you used a Timber Lodge studio to secure a Flex exchange into Oceanwatch, posted an ad on the TUG bb to rent the Oceanwatch week for ~ $1000, and would like to know why the Oceanwatch week did not garner any takers. Is that right? If so, many Tuggers will not rent an exchange. Furthermore, the pool of renters less than 45 days before check-in is probably small and consists of those persons who can drive to the location or who can obtain a last minute deal on airfare.


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## tjkahn (Apr 17, 2012)

EKniager said:


> Have you tried Redweek.com or eBay?
> 
> To be honest with you, our first approach is to offer it to friends, neighbors, relatives, golf buddies.  That seems to be the easiest and safest as long as you collect the money up front and only allow a cancellation refund if a replacement can be found.



I have used ebay, although I haven't rented in a few years.  Last time I used ebay I believe I got a little less than my MF for my 1 BR (about $1K).  True, I still had my studio and so overall I probably made out...but I honestly can't say it's better than trading for the 110,000 MR points my unit gets - which would cost me $1,375 and I'd have to purchase in two separate years.

Have not tried redweek but that would probably by where I would try next time, whenever next time is.  I assume posting on TUG is fruitless, based on how many cheap weeks I see out there and my own no bid experience.

Friends, neighbors, golf buddies are great - but you're talking about a limited audience and a limited vacation that you are marketing (specific place, specific week).  I think the match game is tough when you're not casting a wide net.

I still think when you factor in *everything* - time/effort of listing, seller's fees (ebay), listing fees, and dealing with the occasional person who tries to lowball you....I respectfully disagree that trading for $1,375 worth of MF points, that are real and can be used for great hotel rooms (add 10,000 points for $125, or credit card usage, etc.), and you've got 5 nights at a category 6 hotel) is always a bad economic decision vs. renting.  That hotel room costs you easily $1,800 when you factor in taxes, which are avoided with MR points.

We're looking at this two different ways - neither of us is wrong.  If you've been able to fetch $2,500 for your week, your statement is absolutely correct, it's just math.  If I'm not clearing $1,375 for my rental, trading for MR points is not a bad economic decision at all.  One issue could be that I've never tried to rent the entier 2 BR - I've always locked off so that I have that week to use anyway.  Maybe I don't know enough wealthy people  , I'm just a humble single week owner looking to go away with the family a week or two every year.


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## tjkahn (Apr 17, 2012)

brigechols said:


> I will take a stab at answering your question. Reading through your posts, it appears that you used a Timber Lodge studio to secure a Flex exchange into Oceanwatch, posted an ad on the TUG bb to rent the Oceanwatch week for ~ $1000, and would like to know why the Oceanwatch week did not garner any takers. Is that right? If so, many Tuggers will not rent an exchange. Furthermore, the pool of renters less than 45 days before check-in is probably small and consists of those persons who can drive to the location or who can obtain a last minute deal on airfare.



I frankly did not even know that renting exchanges was prohibited (not sure why if you have to pay for the guest certificate).  Nothing in my listing indicated that this was an exchange - how would anyone know?  The listing was active for 2 months - not a single inquiry.  I hear your point regarding the limited window, but I'd still expect something better than zero calls - particularly when units were being sold by Marriott during the inital few weeks of my listing for $279 - $339 per night.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 17, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> There was a time in the not too distant past (prior to DC announcement) where many resale owners complained vigorously about how Marriott was allegedly treating them as second class citizens.  The list of alleged inequities went on and on forever and the discussions on TUG raged for years on this topic.
> 
> Then came the DC announcement and with the introduction of the new Points based OPTIONAL ENHANCEMENT, resale owners were provided the gift of a lifetime *IMHO.*
> 
> ...



To all who participated in this thread,  Thank you.

My comments were rhetorical in nature and attempted to explore the various sentiments and viewpoints of all three parties involved (Direct Consumers, Resale Consumers, and Marriott).  The post was an attempt to highlight the opportunity that Marriott provided to all its owners.  It’s still my opinion that they did accomplish that.

For anyone interested, I posted additional feedback on this thread here: http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1279023&postcount=4


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## ricki999 (Apr 17, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> To all who participated in this thread,  Thank you.
> 
> My comments were rhetorical in nature and attempted to explore the various sentiments and viewpoints of all three parties involved (Direct Consumers, Resale Consumers, and Marriott).  The post was an attempt to highlight the opportunity that Marriott provided to all its owners.  It’s still my opinion that they did accomplish that.
> 
> For anyone interested, I posted additional feedback on this thread here: http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1279023&postcount=4



Did Marriott provide their viewpoint/sentiments?


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 17, 2012)

ricki999 said:


> Did Marriott provide their viewpoint/sentiments?



Yes, they did speak to me about their decision.  They were very kind to discuss their rationale for the change.  I was at Grand Chateau when we met back in April of 2010.


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## ricki999 (Apr 18, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Yes, they did speak to me about their decision.  They were very kind to discuss their rationale for the change.  I was at Grand Chateau when we met back in April of 2010.



Ok, was hoping Marriott posted something and I missed it.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 18, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Yes, they did speak to me about their decision.  They were very kind to discuss their rationale for the change.  I was at Grand Chateau when we met back in April of 2010.



Who did you meet with from Marriott/MVCI?


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 18, 2012)

A Sr. Operations Executive who has been with MVCI since the early 90's.  Prior to that he spent 10 years at Marriott International responsible for various business segments around the world.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 18, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Yes, they did speak to me about their decision.  They were very kind to discuss their rationale for the change.  I was at Grand Chateau when we met back in April of 2010.



So what was the rationale for the change? Did I miss that in this thread.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 18, 2012)

The rationale was based upon the following topics:

1. Business Climate
2. Customer Feedback
3. Strategic Plans
4. Product Portfolio Performance
5. Marketplace dynamics


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## tjkahn (Apr 18, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> The rationale was based upon the following topics:
> 
> 1. Business Climate
> 2. Customer Feedback
> ...



Translation:

1. Profit
2. Profit
3. Profit
4. Profit
5. Profit
 

Sorry I couldn't resist.

Like all of us I'm trying to educate myself and make sure I enjoy my ownership as much as possible.  The fact that Marriott has given this "chance of a lifetime" to resale purchasers is a tad bit annoying, but doesn't make me resentful to the resale purchasers or Marriott.  The idea that folks who paid 1/2 or even less than I did, presumably because they did not have the MR points option, can now buy into that option for $2K, makes me want to increase the font of the "sucker" label I sometimes feel like putting on my forehead, but it will not diminish my enjoyment of good vacations.


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## nike648 (Apr 18, 2012)

*Marriott*

Marriott is the most devious company i have ever dealt with. like some one said "just wait they will find a way to reduce what ever benifit you might have had." Point in case. purchased a time share, had 125k of reward points. 3 months later reduced to 75k for all the right marriott reasons. I have 750k points, used to be able to trade 2 points for 1 airline mile. now it cost from 3 to 6 points under new and improved program. marriott are the biggest rip-off artists i know. I was a big marriott user but no more dumping everything at a huge losses but my fault for believing in them.  BEWARE OF ANYTHING MARRIOTT OFFERS YOU.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 18, 2012)

nike648 said:


> Marriott is the most devious company i have ever dealt with. like some one said "just wait they will find a way to reduce what ever benifit you might have had." Point in case. purchased a time share, had 125k of reward points. 3 months later reduced to 75k for all the right marriott reasons. I have 750k points, used to be able to trade 2 points for 1 airline mile. now it cost from 3 to 6 points under new and improved program. marriott are the biggest rip-off artists i know. I was a big marriott user but no more dumping everything at a huge losses but my fault for believing in them.  BEWARE OF ANYTHING MARRIOTT OFFERS YOU.



1. If your purchase contract stated that you could trade for 125K MR points each year, then I don't see how it could arbitrarily be modified by Marriott.  Unless there are other factors involved to this statement, I would recommend making a claim to Marriott on this point.

2. Regarding your 750K points buying power over the years, you are correct today it buys less than before.  I also used to get a cup of coffee for .50 cents and pay for fuel at .99 cents/gallon.  I don't blame the coffee shop or the Gas station for these increases.

3. Have you contacted customer relations and expressed your displeasure?  Did you give them an opportunity to address your concerns?

I hope things go better for you in the future with your vacation planning.

Best Regards.


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## m61376 (Apr 18, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> To all who participated in this thread,  Thank you.
> 
> My comments were rhetorical in nature and attempted to explore the various sentiments and viewpoints of all three parties involved (Direct Consumers, Resale Consumers, and Marriott).  The post was an attempt to highlight the opportunity that Marriott provided to all its owners.  It’s still my opinion that they did accomplish that.
> 
> For anyone interested, I posted additional feedback on this thread here: http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1279023&postcount=4



The post in the thread you linked to was actually very nice. Years ago there were several direct purchasers who posted shall we say less than kind sentiments regarding resale buyers/owners, and openly expressed that they were hopeful that resale owners would be excluded from the new system, feeling that they got what they deserved. It seemed that the better the bargains the people got, the more some direct purchasers felt that they needed to convince them how inferior their purchase really was. There was even one poster who regaled against resale buyers and later, ironically, bought a resale unit because he/she couldn't resist the price differential. I think you received the reaction you did because your post could have been interpreted that way, although clearly you didn't mean it in a negative context. 

Like you, I feel that everyone should live and be well, and enjoy what they have purchased, and kudos to those who managed to get the same thing for less.


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## scpoidog (Apr 18, 2012)

nike648 said:


> Marriott is the most devious company i have ever dealt with. like some one said "just wait they will find a way to reduce what ever benifit you might have had." Point in case. purchased a time share, had 125k of reward points. 3 months later reduced to 75k for all the right marriott reasons. I have 750k points, used to be able to trade 2 points for 1 airline mile. now it cost from 3 to 6 points under new and improved program. marriott are the biggest rip-off artists i know. I was a big marriott user but no more dumping everything at a huge losses but my fault for believing in them.  BEWARE OF ANYTHING MARRIOTT OFFERS YOU.



Don't you still have a week long timeshare that you can use every year ?


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## BocaBoy (Apr 19, 2012)

EducatedConsumer said:


> I've read your trail of postings, and I wonder if you work for Marriott, and if so, what you do?



Here we go again.  I remember after the DC introduction when I tried to offer some balanced comments (meaning some comments that were not anti-Marriott) that I was accused quite unpleasantly of being a Marriott salesman.  

Why is it OK to complain about Marriott policies that favor developer purchasers but not OK to complain about Marriott policies that favor resale purchasers?

There seems to be a rather strong sentiment on this board against owners who bought directly from Marriott.  If no one bought developer there would be no timeshares and no resales.


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## gblotter (Apr 19, 2012)

BocaBoy said:


> There seems to be a rather strong sentiment on this board against owners who bought directly from Marriott.


Huh?

I acknowledge that a strong anti-Marriott current sometimes exists on this board.

I admit that this board is not always receptive to Marriott "happy talk".

But I have never detected a bias against those who bought developer weeks - that's just nonsense.

The only comments offered in that vein are related to how much money could have been saved by purchasing resale instead of developer.

Many of us tuggers learned the truth of that the hard way, while still enjoying our timeshare vacations year after year.

I find the great majority of tuggers to be very supportive in helping all owners better understand and utilize our timeshare investments (whether purchased developer or resale).



gblotter said:


> I own both developer weeks and resale weeks, so I guess I'll just have to be resentful of myself.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 19, 2012)

gblotter said:


> But I have never detected a bias against those who bought developer weeks - that's just nonsense.



I would agree. I don't think there is a bias or anyone is resentful of people that bought directly from Marriott. Sure there are some anti Marriott statements made, but those are directed to the company and their policies and not at those that bought directly from Marriott. I would see no reason for anyone to resent people who bought direct, though I can see why some *might* resent those that bought resale.


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## brigechols (Apr 19, 2012)

Sigh.

The comparison of developer purchasers to resale purchasers reminds me of the Sneetches, characters in a Dr. Seuss book. There are the Sneetches with a star on their bellies (developer purchasers) and Sneetches with starless bellies (resale purchasers). The Sneetches with stars turn up their nose at Sneetches without stars. Then along comes Sylvester McMonkey McBean (Marriott) and offers the Sneetches without stars the chance to get a star on their belly for a couple of bucks ($2000 in today's dollars). The star application treatment is an instant success but it upsets the original star bellied creatures who now appear the same. Sylvester McMonkey McBean (Marriott) tells the original star bellied creatures that he can distinguish them from the other Sneetches if they pay more money to have the star removed(buy Trust points). At the end of the story, Sylvester McMonkey McBean (Marriott) makes a lot of money and the Sneetches are left with lighter pockets.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 19, 2012)

It must all be a matter of perspective because I think there are a few folks here who stubbornly refuse to accept that there have been over the years good reasons to purchase directly from Marriott, and those folks will take every opportunity to insinuate (at best) that every direct purchaser is a "sucker."  For example, no matter how many times I might explain that when we purchased direct it was because the specific intervals we wanted to buy were not available at a substantial savings on the external market, I know that there are folks who still think that we were complete idiots for purchasing direct despite being aware of a strong resale market.  I know that those folks think that we should have purchased whatever was available at the least expensive price and then taken our chances with exchanging into the intervals we wanted.  I know it, because it's still the same advice that those folks give to people who come here today asking for help.  And, it's not a sentiment that they apply only to Marriott - it's their mantra for every timeshare system that exists.

The thing is, I completely understand why that advice should be given and considered with all the rest, because it's a purchase decision that has worked for a whole lot of people.  I would never say that the folks who prioritize cost-savings over usage value are Doing It Wrong, but some of those folks have no problem at all with leveling that charge against us direct purchasers.  I think it's a little short-sighted to deny that direct purchasers here on TUG are made to feel like they need to justify their purchases much more frequently than those who purchased external resales.

There simply isn't Only One True Way to purchase or use timeshares!  If a buyer's objective is to be able to visit the same specific resort in the same season on a regular basis, purchasing a different interval because it's cheaper doesn't work (or at least there is greater risk involved with it.)  It wouldn't work either if exchanging the timeshares for a sister-company's hotel stays is an objective.  Of course the general consensus is that the MRP-exchange benefit is not the most cost-effective use of a Marriott timeshare, but the fact remains that for some buyers it is a benefit that they want to use.

Like Boca, I think there's a definite double standard at play here on TUG, that it's fine and dandy to complain about Marriott policies that favor direct purchasers, but it's not good form to NOT complain about their policies that devalue external resales.  And again, it doesn't matter if a direct purchaser states unequivocally that s/he doesn't care if an external resale purchaser is treated the same as any other owner.  Look at brigechols post just above mine for the prevailing sentiment - "... but it upsets the original star bellied creatures who now appear the same ..."  Well, I might let Marriott know that I'm not happy that they've removed a differential that existed between the Stars and No-stars _which Marriott played up as a selling feature_, but I don't have any problem with a No-star taking advantage of Marriott's action!  That's a distinction that I don't think very many acknowledge; it's just seen as direct purchasers supposedly wanting to be "better" in Marriott's view.

But I will NEVER understand the TUG weirdness that is the Marriott-employee accusation.  Here will come somebody with a new thought, a different take, that's not a Marriott-bash and out of nowhere somebody inevitably posts, "what Marriott office do YOU work at?"  WHAT?!  I don't get it.  For one thing, Marriott has sold hundreds of thousands of timeshare weeks and the overwhelming majority of owners are happy enough with their purchases.  (If they weren't, they'd all be here to complain.   )  But for another, there are plenty of TUG regulars who ARE happy Marriott owners - aren't we proof enough that you don't have to work for Marriott to like them?!  And finally, anybody who thinks that any Marriott employees have been given carte blanche to post unguardedly to TUG in an unofficial capacity must be living on another planet.  In this day and age, NO company gives their employees that freedom.  And we've seen what happens to Marriott employees who do come here on the sly - they post up a storm, usually with all good intentions but invariably getting something wrong, and then disappear never to be heard from again.

I really don't think this whole situation will ever be resolved on TUG, it's just human nature at work.  But with enough discussions about it, I hope that the Only One True Way mantra can eventually be at least tempered.


----------



## tjkahn (Apr 19, 2012)

Great points Susan.  I'll chime in with a couple of thoughts..

I'm relatively new to TUG.  There's no question that the prevailing attitude is your a complete fool if you brought direct.  Look at the newsletter from a couple of weeks ago - there was a synopsis of a thread about a purchaser in his cancellation window, asking Tuggers what to do.  The description of the article basically said, "fortunately this person found TUG so they could learn what we already know...."  The entire thread was basically telling the person to cancel and buy resale.

Now, how do I feel about the semtiment?  I don't resent it one bit (although we could all do without the we Tuggers know everything attitude, and the I can't believe how foolish direct purchasers are sentiments). The fact is, and I can accept it, a direct timeshare purchase is almost always a bad investment (there are, of course, a few exceptions as Susan points out).  I'll give my personal example.  I bought a 2 BR lockoff, platinum ski in 2002 at Timber Lodge for 30K.  If I would have bought resale, I'd have paid maybe half of that.  That's the very definition of a bad investment.  If you saw milk on one shelf for $5 and on another shelf for $3, and knew it was the same milk, you'd buy the $3 milk.  I used to be able to make the argument that at least I got the MR trade benefit.  Worth $15K?  Probably not - but Marriott eliminated that difference anyway.  So I could have paid, at most, $15K for my 2 BR lockoff, and now pay another $2K, and there's now no difference between that and what I  paid 30K for.

So, how do I feel about that?  I'll answer some of my own questions:

-Am I mad that Marriott sold me a developer week and pushed the MR points as an option that only direct purchasers could have, only to offer that advantage to others later on?  A little.  Knowing now that I could have paid $17K or less for somthing that Marriott sold me, and told me would only be available for 30K or more, is somewhat annoying.  But the fact is Marriott is a corporation looking to make money, period.  The $2K they'll collect from resale purchasers goes right to their bottom line.

- Do I resent resale purchasers now getting that benefit?  No, that's ridiculous.  That's like getting mad at someone for buying less expensive milk than you bought.

- Will my enjoyment, or my attempt to enjoy my timeshare, be affected by this?  No, I still have my unit, and at this point it doesn't matter if I paid 30,000 or 30,000,000 for it.  I have what I have, and like everyone else I'm here to get the most out of it, whether it be using my own unit or trading it for something else.  I've probably stayed at 10 or so Marriott or II properties in the last decade, and have only relatively minor complaints about any of them.

Oh, and I did get free steak dinner for going on the presentation.  A $13K steak, yummy!


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## dioxide45 (Apr 19, 2012)

tjkahn said:


> Great points Susan.  I'll chime in with a couple of thoughts..
> 
> I'm relatively new to TUG.  There's no question that the prevailing attitude is your a complete fool if you brought direct.  Look at the newsletter from a couple of weeks ago - there was a synopsis of a thread about a purchaser in his cancellation window, asking Tuggers what to do.  The description of the article basically said, "fortunately this person found TUG so they could learn what we already know...."  The entire thread was basically telling the person to cancel and buy resale.



This however is excellent advice for anyone coming to TUG after buying anything direct from a developer at a presentation. If someone is coming here after the presentation with questions, it means they don't completely understand what they bought. They only have a limited time (usually 7 to 10 days) to rescind but they have forever to buy again from the developer after they do their research.

I don't know the specific thread you are referring to, but I am sure that there were probably several direct purchasers advising them to rescind.

For this large of a financial commitment, the research should be done before the purchase not in the 7 to 10 days after signing a contract with the developer while at a sales presentation during their vacation.


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## m61376 (Apr 19, 2012)

Tjkahn- Good points! The most important part of what you said, to me at least, is that what we spent- whether direct, resale several years ago when prices were higher, or resale since the economic bust- is money hopefully well spent, and it is only well spent if we focus less on how much we spent and resenting that others may have bought for less and focus instead on planning and enjoying time with family and friends. Thats what it's all about!!


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## Quilter (Apr 19, 2012)

My OP developer self pinches my OP resale self when I'm not looking and my CV developer self pulls the hair of sweet little GO resale self.   Sometimes I have to take Ambien to get them all to go to sleep and leave me alone.


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## jlf58 (Apr 19, 2012)

I am not sure where in your post you made your point but thank you for taking a crack at it. 



rickandcindy23 said:


> Maybe so.  It seems that a company should consider the resale value when they are talking up their product.  The very nature of the timeshare sales pitch is to talk it up as something of value, then the company devalues it in the resale market, directly hurting those who fell for the pitch.
> 
> I just bought OKW points (250) for $45 each with 2011 included.  I bought Marriott's Willow Ridge Platinum for 5% of retail.
> 
> Sleazy me.  You are definitely a timeshare salesperson, admitted by you in many posts, so I definitely get the sarcasm.


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## billymach4 (Apr 19, 2012)

By the way????

Since when did a gift cost the recipient $2000, even if a large discount? Thanks but no Thanks. 

My gift is still in my checking account. I refuse to give my gift to Marriott.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 19, 2012)

billymach4 said:


> By the way????
> 
> Since when did a gift cost the recipient $2000, even if a large discount? Thanks but no Thanks.
> 
> My gift is still in my checking account. I refuse to give my gift to Marriott.



Small investment to make for a lifetime gift of vacations with your family and friends!


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## Beefnot (Apr 20, 2012)

tjkahn said:


> I'm relatively new to TUG.  There's no question that the *prevailing attitude is your a complete fool if you brought direct*.  Look at the newsletter from a couple of weeks ago - there was a synopsis of a thread about a purchaser in his cancellation window, asking Tuggers what to do.  The description of the article basically said, "fortunately this person found TUG so they could learn what we already know...."  The entire thread was basically telling the person to cancel and buy resale.



I would disagree. I think the prevailing wisdom is that you are an idiot if you _financially rationalize_ your purchase from the developer.  But if you say you've got money falling out your pockets and dropping an extra $15k to get exactly what you wanted was no sweat off your back, then few here would beef with you over it. 

Most other rationales are deep-seated psychological coping mechanisms to white wash the nagging pangs of foolishness when they would not in good faith advise someone close to them to take the same course of action under similar financial and life circumstances.

But silly justifications aside, we have all made bad financial decisions.  With a timeshare at least, if you are still enjoying your purchase, it's all good. You can't change the past.  Just keep it moving and vacation happily.


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## m61376 (Apr 20, 2012)

Like many things in life, situations change and evolve over time. Many here bought directly early on when they were able to benefit from early pre-construction prices and lots of valuable Marriott Rewards points which help offset the cost; moreover, they got to enjoy vacations where they wanted to go and when they wanted to go before many of these same units even hit, and certainly before many flooded, the resale market. 

As the resale market evolved and grew stronger, some of these buyers felt the need to justify their purchases, and in so doing some even condemned resale purchases and buyers, while others recognized that the market was evolving and what may have made sense at one time perhaps was no longer ideal. Others joined the bandwagon mid-stream, and some looked at developer purchasers as "foolish" for lack of a better description, which did lead to a bit of a tug of war and hard feelings. but I think the majority here recognize that what made good sense in the 1990's and early 2000's changed by the middle of the decade, and changed even more dramatically by the end of the decade.

I think the important thing is that we are all owners, and we all pay MF's. We all strive to enjoy great times with family and friends, and no owner is better than another because he/she paid retail or bought resale. And to add to the comments directed at new purchasers being encouraged to rescind- I think anyone who comes here and has to ask the question owes it to themselves to rescind immediately, since they have only a small opportunity to do so. By virtue of the fact that they need to ask the question, they are indicating uncertainty and need the time to get an education here, before buying retail or resale (but certainly before buying from the developer, since there is a lot more $$$ at stake). In today's economic climate it is hard for me personally to justify buying direct, but there are those with enough discretionary income that they simply prefer the ease of such a purchase, which is fine, but before any purchase is made costs are too high not to fully understand what you're buying and what options/alternatives there are..


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## gblotter (Apr 20, 2012)

m61376 said:


> Like many things in life, situations change and evolve over time. Many here bought directly early on when they were able to benefit from early pre-construction prices and lots of valuable Marriott Rewards points which help offset the cost; moreover, they got to enjoy vacations where they wanted to go and when they wanted to go before many of these same units even hit, and certainly before many flooded, the resale market.
> 
> As the resale market evolved and grew stronger, some of these buyers felt the need to justify their purchases, and in so doing some even condemned resale purchases and buyers, while others recognized that the market was evolving and what may have made sense at one time perhaps was no longer ideal. Others joined the bandwagon mid-stream, and some looked at developer purchasers as "foolish" for lack of a better description, which did lead to a bit of a tug of war and hard feelings. but I think the majority here recognize that what made good sense in the 1990's and early 2000's changed by the middle of the decade, and changed even more dramatically by the end of the decade.
> 
> I think the important thing is that we are all owners, and we all pay MF's. We all strive to enjoy great times with family and friends, and no owner is better than another because he/she paid retail or bought resale. And to add to the comments directed at new purchasers being encouraged to rescind- I think anyone who comes here and has to ask the question owes it to themselves to rescind immediately, since they have only a small opportunity to do so. By virtue of the fact that they need to ask the question, they are indicating uncertainty and need the time to get an education here, before buying retail or resale (but certainly before buying from the developer, since there is a lot more $$$ at stake). In today's economic climate it is hard for me personally to justify buying direct, but there are those with enough discretionary income that they simply prefer the ease of such a purchase, which is fine, but before any purchase is made costs are too high not to fully understand what you're buying and what options/alternatives there are..


+1

Our original developer week at Maui Ocean Club was purchased during the construction phase (they didn't even have units available for occupancy at the time we purchased).  No resales were available at any price during the construction phase.

Our second developer week at Mountainside was purchased during the close-out phase (they had already closed the Mountainside sales office by the time we purchased).

Both of those developer weeks included generous incentives.  Between those two purchases, we got a boatload of MR points that we are still burning off 10 years later.

We enjoyed many years of wonderful timeshare vacations before becoming aware of TUG and the bargains available on the resale market.

When prices on the resale market recently plummeted, we seized the opportunity and bought three additional weeks at resorts we love.

We rationalize our expensive developer purchases by averaging the cost with our bargain resale purchases.  Our two developer weeks are now enrolled in DC with Premier status which gives us some flexible options.

It's all good - no regrets.  And certainly nothing to feel resentful over.


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## gblotter (Apr 20, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Small investment to make for a lifetime gift of vacations with your family and friends!


Wonderful quote - I think I read that in a Marriott brochure.

I believe billymach4 is making the point is that he already owns weeks that allow him to enjoy "a lifetime gift of vacations with family and friends" - and without spending an additional $2K (small investment?) for DC options that he does not value.


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## puckmanfl (Apr 20, 2012)

good morning....

Spent approx. $80K for 4 developer weeks....

Snagged about 2.5 mill MR points (sales incentives+paying on MR card) about $25K worth of points, which have beenused well

snagged $5k in Marriott Dollars (also used well)

snagged 2 free units deposited IN II which made some nice ski week flexchange trades...

Most of all , snagged the services of my guru (PRICELESS) , who made it all worth while...

no regrets at all!!!

To my TUG buddies that snagged resale, I say "cool beans" and good for you!!!  No regrets at all!!! 

Livin' the dream...  Next up 

Frenchmans Cove 3 bedroom 6/2-6/10
GV 12/31/12-1/4/13 3 bedroom
Ski weeks (2) summitt and mountainside 2/24/13-3/1/13


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## gblotter (Apr 20, 2012)

brigechols said:


> I tried ignoring FractionalTraveler but the ignore feature doesn't work when someone quotes the post.


I wasn't aware of the ignore feature - could be helpful.

Assuming I add someone to my ignore list ... How does it work if they start a new thread?  Will I not see any of the posts on that thread (from any user)?

Edit: I just tried it out - I see what you mean about the limitations.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 20, 2012)

m61376 said:


> Like many things in life, situations change and evolve over time. Many here bought directly early on when they were able to benefit from early pre-construction prices and lots of valuable Marriott Rewards points which help offset the cost; moreover, they got to enjoy vacations where they wanted to go and when they wanted to go before many of these same units even hit, and certainly before many flooded, the resale market.
> 
> As the resale market evolved and grew stronger, some of these buyers felt the need to justify their purchases, and in so doing some even condemned resale purchases and buyers, while others recognized that the market was evolving and what may have made sense at one time perhaps was no longer ideal. Others joined the bandwagon mid-stream, and some looked at developer purchasers as "foolish" for lack of a better description, which did lead to a bit of a tug of war and hard feelings. but I think the majority here recognize that what made good sense in the 1990's and early 2000's changed by the middle of the decade, and changed even more dramatically by the end of the decade.
> 
> I think the important thing is that we are all owners, and we all pay MF's. We all strive to enjoy great times with family and friends, and no owner is better than another because he/she paid retail or bought resale. And to add to the comments directed at new purchasers being encouraged to rescind- I think anyone who comes here and has to ask the question owes it to themselves to rescind immediately, since they have only a small opportunity to do so. By virtue of the fact that they need to ask the question, they are indicating uncertainty and need the time to get an education here, before buying retail or resale (but certainly before buying from the developer, since there is a lot more $$$ at stake). In today's economic climate it is hard for me personally to justify buying direct, but there are those with enough discretionary income that they simply prefer the ease of such a purchase, which is fine, but before any purchase is made costs are too high not to fully understand what you're buying and what options/alternatives there are..



+1.  Very well-written post, m, says everything.


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## tschwa2 (Apr 20, 2012)

billymach4 said:


> By the way????
> 
> Since when did a gift cost the recipient $2000, even if a large discount? Thanks but no Thanks.
> 
> My gift is still in my checking account. I refuse to give my gift to Marriott.



The gift is giving you the option.  Some developers force fees of $2000+ on owners/members without giving them any option.  If it is worth it to you to get the added benefits enroll, if not don't.  I closed on my resale purchase after the date so I don't have a choice.  So be it.  It sucks that the unsold developer inventory is going to Club members and not in Interval but it is their inventory and regular owners never had an entitlement to it anyway.

The only thing I resent if true (but I can't see behind the scenes at Marriott and II) is if Marriott is manipulating week owners deposits that have *not* been converted to points and keeping it out of interval for several months to give points members first crack at it.  I think a few more prime time deposits should be hitting Interval at 12 months and 13 months but instead are hitting Interval fairly late if at all.

I also worry that Marriott will not be using the skim and program fees to pay the individual HOA's enough to cover the same fees that would have been paid to the HOA's through al a carte fees for the same services like additional housekeeping services for short stays, lock off fees, etc.  It's a worry but I have to trust my board will keep Marriott accountable and it won't be rolled into increased MF's.


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## kjd (Apr 20, 2012)

The incentives to purchase direct from Marriott don't match up with the incentives of yesteryear.  There were all kinds of additional points and perks when there were selling pre-contruction. It was the "golden age of timesharing".  I bought one MGC unit that could not be occupied for almost two years.  It was loaded with incentives.  The second unit we bought had less incentives but still was attractive.  We took two overseas vacations and had points left over.  

Today those incentive levels are gone.  They have been replaced by negatives.  You can't participate in the DC.  You won't have the Marriott preference.  You won't have the Marriott adviser to help you.  You will only have I I albeit with some more trading limitations.  

If you're starting out in today's market I'm not sure it makes any sense to buy a timeshare from anyone, direct or re-sale.  Given the cost of maintenance fees, I'm not sure even "buy to use" makes any sense.


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## timeos2 (Apr 20, 2012)

kjd said:


> The incentives to purchase direct from Marriott don't match up with the incentives of yesteryear.  There were all kinds of additional points and perks when there were selling pre-contruction. It was the "golden age of timesharing".  I bought one MGC unit that could not be occupied for almost two years.  It was loaded with incentives.  The second unit we bought had less incentives but still was attractive.  We took two overseas vacations and had points left over.
> 
> Today those incentive levels are gone.  They have been replaced by negatives.  You can't participate in the DC.  You won't have the Marriott preference.  You won't have the Marriott adviser to help you.  You will only have I I albeit with some more trading limitations.
> 
> If you're starting out in today's market I'm not sure it makes any sense to buy a timeshare from anyone, direct or re-sale.  Given the cost of maintenance fees, I'm not sure even "buy to use" makes any sense.



Great points.  Add that the costs of the early 90's were at most at or below the $10K mark while the average annual fe was well under $400.  Compare that to today's average of over $20K - with even questionable locations often MUCH higher - and fees averaging $700+ - in too many cases twice that.  Paying a big price today for retail with reduced perks & high price only to get the right to pay thousands more in annual fees, and at the same rate as those who buy for pennies on resale, makes zero sense. And add to that the ease of renting vs the hassles, uncertainties and costs of trading and any purchase starts to look questionable - even resale. 

Today buy to use is perhaps the most critical advice we can offer. It is very easy to rent what you really want for far lower costs than virtually any ownership now offers. Only if you want to return to a resort/location regularly and you feel the fees make it a value should you even consider a purchase.  Buying to use can & should include plans to buy into a large system such as Wyndham or Worldmark as using the locations within a larger system can be the lowest cost way to enjoy timeshares & virtually guarantee you'll get your value out.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 20, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Great points.  Add that the costs of the early 90's were at most at or below the $10K mark while the average annual fe was well under $400.  Compare that to today's average of over $20K - with even questionable locations often MUCH higher - and fees averaging $700+ - in too many cases twice that.  Paying a big price today for retail with reduced perks & high price only to get the right to pay thousands more in annual fees, and at the same rate as those who buy for pennies on resale, makes zero sense. And add to that the ease of renting vs the hassles, uncertainties and costs of trading and any purchase starts to look questionable - even resale.
> 
> Today buy to use is perhaps the most critical advice we can offer. It is very easy to rent what you really want for far lower costs than virtually any ownership now offers. Only if you want to return to a resort/location regularly and you feel the fees make it a value should you even consider a purchase.  Buying to use can & should include plans to buy into a large system such as Wyndham or Worldmark as using the locations within a larger system can be the lowest cost way to enjoy timeshares & virtually guarantee you'll get your value out.



Agreed, my 2005 purchase of 3-BR at Grand Chateau delivered 200K MR points plus a 7-day Cruise.  Nothing like that anymore.


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## tjkahn (Apr 20, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Great points.  Add that the costs of the early 90's were at most at or below the $10K mark while the average annual fe was well under $400.  Compare that to today's average of over $20K - with even questionable locations often MUCH higher - and fees averaging $700+ - in too many cases twice that.  Paying a big price today for retail with reduced perks & high price only to get the right to pay thousands more in annual fees, and at the same rate as those who buy for pennies on resale, makes zero sense. And add to that the ease of renting vs the hassles, uncertainties and costs of trading and any purchase starts to look questionable - even resale.



This is why Marriott now sells points and not weeks.  I went on the sales pitch at OceanWatch- easiest $75 I ever made because I knew I was enrolling in DC, but not buying trust points.  99.9% of the sales pitch was focused on trust points...buy these and you'll be able to go wherever you want, whenever you want.  We all know that's not true.  When they sold weeks it was the same pitch - you'll be able to trade and go anywhere you want whenever you want.  Not the reason I bought -I knew that wasn't true, my thought was buy at a place you wouldn't mind going to every year given no other choice (worst case scenario evaluation).

The market has gotten more educated about buying weeks and having the ability to go wherever you want whenever you want, so they've put the weeks pitch in a different outfit and rebranded it.

What I really fear is that my maintenace fee, while still high at around $1,100, is a lot less than the maintenance fee one would pay annually for buying the points one would need to reserve my unit.  Will that last? Maybe that's the way Marriott makes legacy owners feel like they're not getting screwed...a points owner buying enough points to reserve your unit in your season pays (in my unit's case) almost twice what I pay in my MF.  Which brings to mind the other big lie of a sales presentation..."inflation proof vacations."  Until Marriott decides they need a new revenue stream...let's all hope as legacy owners our MF's don't go higher because of DC.


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## BocaBoy (Apr 20, 2012)

One point from history that only long-term Marriott developer owners like us really have experienced is the fact that developer weeks in the early days in fact had tremendous financial value.  For example, we bought our first week at Sabal Palms (recently given to our son) in 1987.  At that time we paid something like $13,000 for a Red (Platinum) week and the annual maintenance fee was a little over $300.  With that week we traded annually for 110,000 Marriott Rewards points, which at that time (this is not an exaggeration) was enough points for an annual travel package of 8 nights in any Marriott hotel worldwide, a week's free Hertz rental car and 2 coach airline tickets to anywhere in the world.  For a short while the package also included a 3 or 4 day cruise, which you could decline and get back something like 30,000 of your points.  We traveled in luxury for many years on those exchanges before the financial equation started to change.  We only stayed at Sabal Palms two times during our ownership years even though we very much like the resort, because of the tremendous value of exchanging for MR points.  Buying our two Sabal Palms weeks from Marriott were great financial decisions, which unfortunately cannot be replicated today.  However, we love to fly in business class over the oceans and Marriott Rewards points still have a lot of value for the way we travel.


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## Beefnot (Apr 20, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Today buy to use is perhaps the most critical advice we can offer. It is very easy to rent what you really want for far lower costs than virtually any ownership now offers. Only if you want to return to a resort/location regularly and you feel the fees make it a value should you even consider a purchase.



Retail ownership, definitely.  Resale ownership, well not necessarily.  I'll be staying in a 2BR Desert Springs II in July with a deposit of an 'overbuilt' 1BR timeshare.  Add my exchange fee, and my cost is still less than half of what it would cost to own there and cheaper than renting from an owner.  On the other hand, it is only marginally cheaper than an II Getaway, which would have no risk of special assessment.  Although you need to own something to be a member of II...


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## Beefnot (Apr 20, 2012)

BocaBoy said:


> One point from history that only long-term Marriott developer owners like us really have experienced is the fact that developer weeks in the early days in fact had tremendous financial value.  For example, we bought our first week at Sabal Palms (recently given to our son) in 1987.  At that time we paid something like $13,000 for a Red (Platinum) week and the annual maintenance fee was a little over $300.  With that week we traded annually for 110,000 Marriott Rewards points, which at that time (this is not an exaggeration) was enough points for an annual travel package of 8 nights in any Marriott hotel worldwide, a week's free Hertz rental car and 2 coach airline tickets to anywhere in the world.  For a short while the package also included a 3 or 4 day cruise, which you could decline and get back something like 30,000 of your points.  We traveled in class for many years on those exchanges before the financial equation started to change.  We only stayed at sabal palms two times during our ownership years even though we very much like the resort, because of the tremendous value of exchanging for MR points.  Buying our two Sabal Palms weeks from Marriott were great financial decisions, which unfortunately cannot be replicated today.  However, we love to travel business class over the oceans and Marriott Rewards points still have a lot of value for the way we travel.




Wow.  WOW.


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## BocaBoy (Apr 20, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> It must all be a matter of perspective because I think there are a few folks here who stubbornly refuse to accept that there have been over the years good reasons to purchase directly from Marriott, and those folks will take every opportunity to insinuate (at best) that every direct purchaser is a "sucker."  For example, no matter how many times I might explain that when we purchased direct it was because the specific intervals we wanted to buy were not available at a substantial savings on the external market, I know that there are folks who still think that we were complete idiots for purchasing direct despite being aware of a strong resale market.  I know that those folks think that we should have purchased whatever was available at the least expensive price and then taken our chances with exchanging into the intervals we wanted.  I know it, because it's still the same advice that those folks give to people who come here today asking for help.  And, it's not a sentiment that they apply only to Marriott - it's their mantra for every timeshare system that exists.
> 
> The thing is, I completely understand why that advice should be given and considered with all the rest, because it's a purchase decision that has worked for a whole lot of people.  I would never say that the folks who prioritize cost-savings over usage value are Doing It Wrong, but some of those folks have no problem at all with leveling that charge against us direct purchasers.  I think it's a little short-sighted to deny that direct purchasers here on TUG are made to feel like they need to justify their purchases much more frequently than those who purchased external resales.
> 
> ...



I think this is one of the most thoughtful and balanced posts I have ever read on TUG.


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## Beefnot (Apr 20, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> But I will NEVER understand the TUG weirdness that is the Marriott-employee accusation.  Here will come somebody with a new thought, a different take, that's not a Marriott-bash and out of nowhere somebody inevitably posts, "what Marriott office do YOU work at?"  WHAT?!  I don't get it.  For one thing, Marriott has sold hundreds of thousands of timeshare weeks and the overwhelming majority of owners are happy enough with their purchases.  (If they weren't, they'd all be here to complain.   )  But for another, there are plenty of TUG regulars who ARE happy Marriott owners - aren't we proof enough that you don't have to work for Marriott to like them?!  And finally, anybody who thinks that any Marriott employees have been given carte blanche to post unguardedly to TUG in an unofficial capacity must be living on another planet.  In this day and age, NO company gives their employees that freedom.  And we've seen what happens to Marriott employees who do come here on the sly - they post up a storm, usually with all good intentions but invariably getting something wrong, and then disappear never to be heard from again.




So then it sounds like you're saying that no Marriott employees are posting in an unofficial or semi-official capacity?  I wouldn't be willing to bet on that.  Actually, I'm fairly confident that it is not the case.  

Also, point taken about facetious and cynical comments about OPs being employees, but is it a bad thing to question someone's motives?  If someone is providing perspective when there may be a potential conflict of interest, then I would argue that it is worth illuminating the circumstances that may call their agenda into question.


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## BocaBoy (Apr 20, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> ....point taken about facetious and cynical comments about OPs being employees, but *is it a bad thing to question someone's motives?*  If someone is providing perspective when there may be a potential conflict of interest, then I would argue that it is worth illuminating the circumstances that may call their agenda into question.


The problem is that there is absolutely no reason to suspect that these posts are from Marriott employees.  The only "basis" is that their comments are somehow favorable to Marriott.  How does that lead to a reasonable suspicion that the poster has an agenda with a potential conflict of interest?


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## SueDonJ (Apr 20, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> So then it sounds like you're saying that no Marriott employees are posting in an unofficial or semi-official capacity?  I wouldn't be willing to bet on that.  Actually, I'm fairly confident that it is not the case.
> 
> Also, point taken about facetious and cynical comments about OPs being employees, but is it a bad thing to question someone's motives?  If someone is providing perspective when there may be a potential conflict of interest, then I would argue that it is worth illuminating the circumstances that may call their agenda into question.



I'm certain Marriott reps read here, probably several at the exec office level as an official component of their job - it's the perfect cost-free venue for them to keep an eye on which way the wind is blowing in their customer base, as well as a way for them to keep an ear towards how their employees are projecting/representing the company as related by their customers.  A great many others should read unofficially (because it will help them know what the product actually is and how it actually works!) but I'd guess those numbers aren't high enough, at least to satisfy me.  If I was a MVW exec, I'd make three hours per week of TUG-Marriott reading a requirement of every position!

Honestly, I have never read a post where my first reaction has been that it was written by a Marriott plant.  If I don't understand a new poster's thought process, or can't quite put my finger on why something in the post sounds "off," then I try to either ask leading questions relating to their topic or wait around for the next few posts to see how things progress.  (Admittedly, patience isn't usually a virtue of mine.  )  But no, it never occurs to me to accuse a new poster of being a Marriott employee - there are far too many Marriott owners who are knowledgeable about what they own and happy, so it doesn't surprise me at all that they find TUG and join in.  I really like that about TUG, that it's not always a bitchfest.

It would be great if TUG could have an official regular Marriott poster.  At this point the only one I know of who can post in that official capacity is MVCI Customer Advocate, and obviously with only two posts from that account it's a fairly useless resource for us.  But I want what flyertalk.com has, an official Marriott voice whose info can be relied upon as official Marriott policy, which posts can be successfully used as proof of Marriott being required to act in a certain way.

There isn't any one poster on TUG about whom I can say, "s/he knows everything and her/his info is always 100% spot-on and can be taken to the bank."  Is there for you?  I'm not saying that I don't believe anything I ever see here, or that there aren't very good posters who I think of as smarter than the average bear when it comes to all things Marriott.  But those posters generally temper whatever they post so that their info doesn't unintentionally mislead people, and they can produce Marriott-generated documentation to support their posts.  When they don't know something, they make it clear that they're speculating or they simply don't post to the topic.  That's not true about every poster, but it's not always due to arrogance - there is enough off-TUG misinformation spread by Marriott employees in regular dealings with them, that it only makes sense that we owners are sometimes confused and/or strident in our belief about what we've been told.

What does all that have to do with Marriott employees posting to TUG?  Well, if they're here unofficially they obviously haven't made a name for themselves as posters whose info can be taken to the bank!  Of the ones who did "introduce" themselves as Marriott employees here in an unofficial capacity, not one of them was 100% correct in what s/he posted, and none of them last very long.  I suspect that's because their superiors catch up to them and tell them in no uncertain terms that they have a decision to make, their jobs or TUG.

So after all that, maybe I'm naive but I don't think that Marriott plants people here or that Marriott employees take it upon themselves to post here in an effort to play up the company.  It's far too risky a proposition all around, what with the preponderance of misinformation that we know is verbally shared by a whole lot of Marriott employees.  If they put it here and their identity is exposed, it's a form of written communication that just can't be as easily dismissed when complaints are lodged against them.


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## Beefnot (Apr 20, 2012)

Because someone is a Marriott employee does not mean that they fully understand or control the program.  Someone in finance or technology operations, for example, may have very little knowledge of the inner workings.  But they can still act in a capacity to not only influence perception of Marriott and its programs in forums, but also share consumer feedback gained from their participation in those forums.  I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing, but I don't find any problem with sniffing out things that seem a little off and poking around a bit.


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## Beefnot (Apr 20, 2012)

BocaBoy said:


> The problem is that there is absolutely no reason to suspect that these posts are from Marriott employees.  The only "basis" is that their comments are somehow favorable to Marriott.  How does that lead to a reasonable suspicion that the poster has an agenda with a potential conflict of interest?



Differences of opinion.


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## gblotter (Apr 20, 2012)

BocaBoy said:


> The problem is that there is absolutely no reason to suspect that these posts are from Marriott employees.  The only "basis" is that their comments are somehow favorable to Marriott.  How does that lead to a reasonable suspicion that the poster has an agenda with a potential conflict of interest?


No reason except for their posts sound just like language from a Marriott sales brochure and they have only very recently joined TUG and they are suddenly very prolific in sharing their "new perspectives".  Absolutely no reason.

I have no doubt that Marriott is aware of TUG and reads this forum.  There are even rare postings from people who identify themselves as Marriott employees.  I welcome Marriott participation here on TUG.  I wish we had more of it - I think it would be very helpful to these discussions.  I just don't appreciate the stealth approach from posers however - I find it insulting.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 20, 2012)

gblotter said:


> No reason except for their posts sound just like language from a Marriott sales brochure and they have only very recently joined TUG and they are suddenly very prolific in sharing their "new perspectives".  Absolutely no reason.
> 
> I have no doubt that Marriott is aware of TUG and reads this forum.  There are even rare postings from people who identify themselves as Marriott employees.  I welcome Marriott participation here on TUG.  I wish we had more of it - I think it would be very helpful to these discussions.  I just don't appreciate the stealth approach from posers however - I find it insulting.



I would recommend posting some of your queries on the Marriott Rewards Insider's BBS.

They have a dedicated Marriott Representative called the Community Manager.

I have found them to be very resposive with any questions or concerns.  Many folks have asked timeshare related questions as well.

Best wishes.


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## Quilter (Apr 20, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> I'm certain Marriott reps read here, probably several at the exec office level as an official component of their job - it's the perfect cost-free venue for them to keep an eye on which way the wind is blowing in their customer base, as well as a way for them to keep an ear towards how their employees are projecting/representing the company as related by their customers.



Marriott, are you out there?   If so, thank you for this lovely Presidential Suite I'm enjoying tonight at the Renaissance in Asheville.   Wow!   It's a nice surprise.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 20, 2012)

billymach4 said:


> By the way????
> 
> Since when did a gift cost the recipient $2000, even if a large discount? Thanks but no Thanks.
> 
> My gift is still in my checking account. I refuse to give my gift to Marriott.



We did take them up on the *gift*, though I think our $2000 was more of a gift to MVCI. It should still workout for us in the long run.

I still think there are other reasons to enroll other than for just fee savings.


Ability to rent points and have them transferred to your account to book as you please.
If you aren't Premier and want access to the Ritz properties, you can transfer points to a Premier owner and have them book the stay for you. Perhaps for a modest fee.
Perhaps doing the same for a short notice stay and saving 20% on points.
Doing the same for a 13 month reservation of less than 7 nights (Premier Plus).
Ability to trade for MRPs. Sure it didn't always make sense to buy developer for this option, but getting it for a fraction of the cost is a *gift* from MVCI. You can now trade for MRPs for MFs only if you bought resale super cheap. 90K in MRPs for our MFs at Harbour Lake is cheaper than buying from Marriott Rewards.


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## tschwa2 (Apr 20, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> We did take them up on the *gift*, though I think our $2000 was more of a gift to MVCI. It should still workout for us in the long run.
> 
> I still think there are other reasons to enroll other than for just fee savings.
> 
> ...



I guess a good thing is that enrolled members can opt out because if Marriott feels the renting of points and/or reservations made by points is cutting into their profits they can stop allowing the transfer of points or charge a fee to do so.  And as soon as Marriott determines a member is using points for a commercial purpose they can apply such penalties or restrictions as they see fit.  

From  Vacation Club documents enrollment guide


> Exchange Company, in Exchange Company’s sole discretion may
> limit, condition, suspend, terminate, or charge a fee for transfers of Exchange Points.





> In the event a Member is determined to be reserving or using the
> Accommodations, Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, Special Benefits, and Use Periods for any
> commercial purpose Exchange Company may immediately cancel any current reservation(s) made by such Member
> and may impose such additional penalties or restrictions as determined by Exchange Company, in its sole discretion,
> ...


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## dioxide45 (Apr 20, 2012)

tschwa2 said:


> I guess a good thing is that enrolled members can opt out because if Marriott feels the renting of points and/or reservations made by points is cutting into their profits they can stop allowing the transfer of points or charge a fee to do so.  And as soon as Marriott determines a member is using points for a commercial purpose they can apply such penalties or restrictions as they see fit.
> 
> From  Vacation Club documents enrollment guide



Sure they can, these rules existed in the weeks system also. This isn't anything new. It doesn't mean they will. They could have enforced this in the past with weeks and they didn't. Sure, they could start now but then again they could just continue as they have been with people renting and transferring points freely to this point in time.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Quilter said:


> Marriott, are you out there?   If so, thank you for this lovely Presidential Suite I'm enjoying tonight at the Renaissance in Asheville.   Wow!   It's a nice surprise.



HAHAHA!!!  Love it!


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## gblotter (Apr 21, 2012)

Quilter said:


> Marriott, are you out there?   If so, thank you for this lovely Presidential Suite I'm enjoying tonight at the Renaissance in Asheville.   Wow!   It's a nice surprise.


Speaking positively about Marriott?

You must be a plant.

What Marriott sales office do you work in?


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## GregT (Apr 21, 2012)

tschwa2 said:


> I guess a good thing is that enrolled members can opt out because if Marriott feels the renting of points and/or reservations made by points is cutting into their profits they can stop allowing the transfer of points or charge a fee to do so.  And as soon as Marriott determines a member is using points for a commercial purpose they can apply such penalties or restrictions as they see fit.



I do think Marriott will change the transfer rules one day -- Disney has incorporated a restriction where you are only allowed one transfer per account per year -- either one transfer in or one transfer out, but not both.

I expect someday Marriott will do this, but it took Disney awhile to incorporate this and we do not appear to have near the volume of points rental activity.

We will see.

Best,

Greg


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## m61376 (Apr 21, 2012)

Greg- that would be unfortunate- shhh- don't give them any ideas  
Can DVC owners rent points to non-DVC owners, or is the rental/transfer limited?


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## Quilter (Apr 21, 2012)

gblotter said:


> Speaking positively about Marriott?
> 
> You must be a plant.
> 
> What Marriott sales office do you work in?



Yes.  A Plant City Planter that is.  Class of '70  

Just a Strawberry Girl enjoying a gift.   I have my opinion for who to ultimately thank.  Others have theirs.


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## gblotter (Apr 21, 2012)

Quilter said:


> Yes.  A Plant City Planter that is.  Class of '70
> 
> Just a Strawberry Girl enjoying a gift.   I have my opinion for who to ultimately thank.  Others have theirs.


I'm just kidding, of course.

At a Rennaissance in Palm Desert last November, we got upgraded to a two-bedroom suite with kitchenette.  Not quite Presidential Suite, but those little surprises are certainly very nice.


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## tschwa2 (Apr 21, 2012)

I agree that Marriott isn't going to go after members for transferring an orphaned 65 points or renting 210 points or so to complete a reservation.  They have their skim and aren't looking to punish members for fitting together a reservation or even renting out a whole longer reservation here and there.  The white washing of the points in and reservations out of the premier and premier plus accounts are what is going to cause the problems.


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## Quilter (Apr 21, 2012)

gblotter said:


> I'm just kidding, of course.
> 
> At a Rennaissance in Palm Desert last November, we got upgraded to a two-bedroom suite with kitchenette.  Not quite Presidential Suite, but those little surprises are certainly very nice.



I caught that.  No shoulder chips here.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 21, 2012)

m61376 said:


> Greg- that would be unfortunate- shhh- don't give them any ideas
> Can DVC owners rent points to non-DVC owners, or is the rental/transfer limited?



This is another way Marriott's new system is so similar to DVC - in both systems the Points can't be transferred to someone who doesn't have a Points account, but a member can make a reservation with Points and then rent it out to anyone.  Renting/transferring the Points to another member gives total control of the Points to the rentee; renting the reservation leaves total control of the reservation, and Points used to make it, with the Points owner.


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