# Marriott:  Time to Buy...or Time to Bail?



## Steve (Nov 26, 2008)

I recently sold my last Marriott week.  It was a Manor Club week that I had purchased on the resale market.  I sold it through Marriott which netted me a nice profit.  I had planned to purchase another Manor Club week, resale, with part of the proceeds.  

After thinking things over, however, I have decided not to.  I love Manor Club, but it is extremely easy to exchange into through II.  (Most of the other Marriotts that I like best are also easy trades.)  Purchase prices are incredibly low, but maintenance fees are getting pretty high. 

So, I'm going to wait and see what happens with Marriott, the coming points system rollout, and the timeshare market in general before deciding if I want to buy another Marriott. It seems weird to not be a Marriott owner after having owned a number of Marriott weeks over the past eight years, but I think it was the right decision.

How do others feel?  Are the super low prices encouraging you to jump in and buy one (or more) Marriott weeks?  Or are you bailing out and selling?  Holding steady?  Purchasing non-Marriott timeshares (which are currently incredibly cheap)?  

Steve


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## littlestar (Nov 26, 2008)

Wow, Steve, I can't believe you don't own a Marriott anymore. 

I've watched the bargains for Marriott on Ebay but I haven't been tempted to buy because I'm wondering what they are going to do with this points system - possibly tanking the value of certain resorts and seasons which probably means gold and platinum owners will pay more ultimately in maintenance fees. I wasn't impressed with what I was reading on the survey. 

We did pick up another VRI managed EOY 2 bedroom lock-off summer week at a resort we already owned at. I saw a bargain on e-bay and decided to grab it. So now we just own an EOY Marriott, and two EOY's at Fairways. 

We had downsized our Disney points to a bare minimum and I actually thought about selling all of the DVC and just staying at Marriott in Orlando most of the time, but decided not to after a terrific DVC trip in October - Disney gave us 17 free passes to the Not so Scary Halloween Party (we couldn't believe they did that). After that terrific experience with Disney, I decided to definitely keep our DVC points and I'm actually probably going to add on at the Contemporary.


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## pcgirl54 (Nov 26, 2008)

I love Marriott resorts but I am pondering the same thing after owning for 8 plus years. My MF with SA are $942 I can rent for that since I travel in shoulder seasons. They used to be mid $600.

My other week I would not sell. It is a Cape Cod prime summer week & pulls coastal resorts,Marriott,Disney and Hawaii.


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## Cathyb (Nov 26, 2008)

Steve: How did you sell your Manor for a nice profit if Marriott isn't practicing ROFR these days?


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## GrayFal (Nov 26, 2008)

Cathyb said:


> Steve: How did you sell your Manor for a nice profit if Marriott isn't practicing ROFR these days?


answer below.....


Steve said:


> I recently sold my last Marriott week.  It was a Manor Club week that I had purchased on the resale market.  *I sold it through Marriott which netted me a nice profit.  *I had planned to purchase another Manor Club week, resale, with part of the proceeds.
> 
> Steve



He gave it to Marriott to sell - they sold it at their FULL retail price and Steve got 60% ??? of the sale - which was more then he purchased it for on the resale market.


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## thinze3 (Nov 26, 2008)

Cathyb said:


> Steve: How did you sell your Manor for a nice profit if Marriott isn't practicing ROFR these days?



Marriott may not be currently taking inventory through ROFR, but will surley sell your week off the waiting list if a buyer comes along. Of course Marriott makes more money by obtaining weeks through ROFR, but cash is king these days.


Terry


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## sernow (Nov 26, 2008)

I love staying at Marriott resorts and have nearly pulled the trigger a few times in the last few years. I didn't because of:

- Truth shading and outright fabrications during in my first, only, and last sales preview I will ever go on. This turned me off from buying directly. I originally had a lot of respect for Marriott and only considered a developer sale, but no more.

- Huge increases in MF's and fall on the floor Special Assessments (I first became aware of this with the Hawaiian properties).

- Uncertainty about Marriott's rumored internal trading system and how they would treat resale owners.

- Recent talk of points system and how this would impact various resorts, seasons, and resale owners.

What will probably keep me from ever buying from Marriott is the uncertainty regarding resales. I don't want a property that has it's resale value destroyed because of new policies that are unfriendly to resale buyers. Regardless of whether they grandfather in current resale owners, making new resale purchasers second class citizens will ruin your week's resale value.


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## tango (Nov 26, 2008)

Reminds me of that ad, where the old mechanic announces it's time to hang it up and sell the shop, and in the next scene, the shop purchase is the dream of the new retiree.
Those experienced with timeshares surely have a different perspective from newbies.  We see the incredible values for vacations that only a few years ago seemed out of reach.
It boils down to your tolerance for the gamble.  Playing the waiting game, may reward with either higher or lower values, the truth is, I don't think, any one knows.


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## timeos2 (Nov 26, 2008)

*Why buy the cow  - the milk is so sweet*



pcgirl54 said:


> I love Marriott resorts but I am pondering the same thing after owning for 8 plus years. My MF with SA are $942 I can rent for that since I travel in shoulder seasons. They used to be mid $600.
> 
> My other week I would not sell. It is a Cape Cod prime summer week & pulls coastal resorts,Marriott,Disney and Hawaii.



We love the Marriott resorts and were tempted twice to buy in but have, like you, discovered we can get any we want practically on demand with a good summer trader or DRI/II points.  And the annual fees for those are half or less of what a single Marriott would cost before the hassles and cost of II trades to travel to the ones we wouldn't own.  With the history of Marriott walking away from resorts, high handed tactics with owners to keep the management and high fees it makes zero sense to commit to an ownership in the system.  Sure glad others pay the freight though as we do enjoy the beautiful resorts Marriott has kept in their system.


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## thinze3 (Nov 26, 2008)

sernow said:


> ... - Huge increases in MF's and fall on the floor Special Assessments (I first became aware of this with the Hawaiian properties)...



Trust me, ALL timeshares are having this problem. Things are very expensive in Hawaii and MF's do and should reflect that. Properties such as Christie Lodge have also exploded in MF's in the last few years, but for a different reason. Yes there is the typical, higher utilities, higher wages, higher taxes, that we have seen at all timeshares. But there is a much bigger problem looming. At Christie Lodge, *like most ski resorts*, virtually every week but a ski season week is worthless. 

Consequently, many owners have let their units go into default - simply refusing to pay the MF's. This is a spiraling problem throughout the timeshare industry. The good news is that CL will run its course in about 10 years and will most likely be sold for land value - with the TS owners getting the proceeds.

If you want to keep this from happening, buy a resort that has high year round demand, a well run HOA, and buy at a huge discount. In the mean time hope for lower fuel/energy costs and lower taxes. IMHO

Terry


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## MLC (Nov 26, 2008)

I believe people are going to start renting instead of having the responsibility of paying MF.   I would not buy into the timeshare industry at this point of the game.  Timeshares has changed so much over the years  people have to look what is the cheapest way to vacation.  Having double digit increases in MF over the last 2 years  with Marriott I would be very cautious in buying.   Marriott historically never had more than a 5% increase over all the years they were in business but then all of a sudden MF sky rocketed.  Marriott get at least 10% of our MF as a management fee, so Marriott can give them self a raise by raising the MF(conflict of interest).


I know Marriott will find away to bring back value in their timeshares, if they do not then we all will have a problem with the weeks we own.


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## bogey21 (Nov 26, 2008)

IMO probably too late to bail, too early to buy.

George


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## mpizza (Nov 26, 2008)

I'm in the market for another Marriott week at my home resort and am hoping to get a great deal while the resale market is distressed.  The MFs are still less than a rental during the week we occupy.

Maria


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## ocdb8r (Nov 26, 2008)

The problem with timeshares in general is that the maint. fee increases have tended to outpace inflation over the last several years.  While at the time of initial buy-in they may have been a great "value" for the vacation you get, over time the relative value decreases.  At the same time the resort you own at is getting older and decreasing in desirability.  Further, because you are a captive audience (you own and are responsible for the fees) there is little motivation to keep fees down - competition is gone.  

In addition the explosion of TS developments has created a glut of excess inventory that must be disposed of in some way.  Enter the cheap "getaway" opportunities.

All of these issues combined make it very difficult to squeeze sufficient economic value out of a timeshare these days.  Now, there are many other benefits of ownership:  you can be less flexible, you are "forced" to vacation every year, peace of mind knowing exactly when and where you'll end up...etc.  Those that don't place a high value on these things can do much better playing the trading/getaway game.

I personally like the way the Royals do it in Mexico.  50 (or 30) years and then punt the land.  High demand resorts.  Maint. fees well managed (I don't know HOW they do this).  Nice but basic accommodations.  Sadly I don't yet own there but if I can scope a nice deal on the Haciendas or Sands, that's the only place I'd consider.


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## MOXJO7282 (Nov 26, 2008)

I think until certain circumstances you can find a deal so good that its hard to pass up. If I see a Marriott week that I know is well under market value, I would be investigating it. I saw a 2BDRM Maui Marriott OV annual sell for $17K a few weeks back on ebay. Had I seen that sooner I would have been all over that. I seriously doubt Marriott would let that go by, but maybe in this market who knows. Even in this market, I could have sat on that until the market was better and get $10k above what I paid easily.

There's been other fire sales as well on ebay, and sure to be more, so I think it may be wise to keep your eyes open for that fire sale type situation.

Regards
Joe


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 26, 2008)

littlestar said:


> We had downsized our Disney points to a bare minimum and I actually thought about selling all of the DVC and just staying at Marriott in Orlando most of the time, but decided not to after a terrific DVC trip in October - Disney gave us 17 free passes to the Not so Scary Halloween Party (we couldn't believe they did that). After that terrific experience with Disney, I decided to definitely keep our DVC points and I'm actually probably going to add on at the Contemporary.



Disney gave you free passes to the Halloween party?  Wow!  Why did they do it?  Was it because you are a Disney owner, or was it a special occasion or something? 

I was thinking of going to the Christmas party during our trip next week.  Wish I could get free passes.  We have annual passes, so Rick probably won't want to go to the Christmas party and pay a bunch extra.


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## littlestar (Nov 26, 2008)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Disney gave you free passes to the Halloween party?  Wow!  Why did they do it?  Was it because you are a Disney owner, or was it a special occasion or something?



Cindy, I think we came in contact with someone from the "Dream" squad. My niece was attempting to get reimbursed for some rain out passes for the Halloween party from the previous year and she got to chatting with this Disney CM and they ended up giving us passes for our whole group! 17 of us. And they actually told her if she had more family show up, to call a number they gave her and they would have issued more passes. It had to be part of the Year of a Million Dreams or else she came in contact with somebody very high up at Disney -  

My niece lost her dad (41 years old) back in January and Disney doing that for our family really meant a lot - we made some happy memories. It was an amazing night and I decided that I wanted to keep our DVC membership and probably add on more points.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 26, 2008)

That's pretty cool, littlestar!  I think that is the only way we would ever go to the Halloween party.  Now the Christmas party is quite different for me, because I really want to go, but Rick thinks it's way too expensive, even with our discounts through our annual passes.  

To stay on subject, I would like to buy something in Marriott that would get me 2 bedrooms on the Hawaiian islands in the priority period.  But I already have my Starwood week, so it would be a very hard decision to go forward with it.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 26, 2008)

I think it is a fantastic time to buy Marriotts.  I have my own strategy for it.  Suffice it to say that in any market, there is a way to play it to make money.  Think about it and you will figure out my strategy.  If Marriott suspends ROFR, what happens on the buy side?  What happens later when Marriott starts it up again?  How likely and when will that happen?  Enough said.  All I can say is that there is HUGE opportunity in buying Marriotts right now.  It's NEVER been better.


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## tombo (Nov 26, 2008)

BocaBum99 said:


> I think it is a fantastic time to buy Marriotts.  I have my own strategy for it.  Suffice it to say that in any market, there is a way to play it to make money.  Think about it and you will figure out my strategy.  If Marriott suspends ROFR, what happens on the buy side?  What happens later when Marriott starts it up again?  How likely and when will that happen?  Enough said.  All I can say is that there is HUGE opportunity in buying Marriotts right now.  It's NEVER been better.




I feel sure that you are 100% correct. The million dollar question is when the bottom is so you can buy at the best prices (I don't feel that we have reached the bottom yet), and the other variable is how long before things turn around, sales pick up, and prices increase. We know it will happen, we just don't know when. If you can afford to ride it out for what could be several years while paying multiple MF's, there is money to be made.


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## Vacation Dude (Nov 26, 2008)

BocaBum99 said:


> I think it is a fantastic time to buy Marriotts.  I have my own strategy for it.  Suffice it to say that in any market, there is a way to play it to make money.  Think about it and you will figure out my strategy.  If Marriott suspends ROFR, what happens on the buy side?  What happens later when Marriott starts it up again?  How likely and when will that happen?  Enough said.  All I can say is that there is HUGE opportunity in buying Marriotts right now.  It's NEVER been better.



Just like most stocks and even rental real estate...it appears to be a buying opportunity IF YOU HAVE CASH.

That is the problem, most people did not conserve cash to avoid the present real estate, stock, gold, bond, and timeshare market meltdown of 2008.

 If you had cash, CDs, or put it in a mattress, then you must be smiling now.


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## jlayne9 (Nov 26, 2008)

*Opinions*

Hey guys and gals-
I am new to the timeshare website and considering buying a timeshare.  My wife and I truly enjoying skiing and go each year.  We have been looking at purchasing at a ski resort such as Park City Mountainside and have seen a seller willing to let one go for about 25K.  Since I am new to this, all of the research I have done tells me this is a decent deal but I am not sure.  Any ideas on what the going prices should be in the current state of things for a Park City Marriot Mountainside 2BR 2 BA lockoff unit?  Any help would be appreciated as I definitley do not want to make a huge mistake in this purchase.


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## Vacation Dude (Nov 26, 2008)

tombo said:


> The million dollar question is when the bottom is so you can buy at the best prices (I don't feel that we have reached the bottom yet), and the other variable is how long before things turn around, sales pick up, and prices increase.



It is almost impossible to buy at the bottom and sell at the top, but the prices are so low now, the odds are that we are closer to the bottom than the top.

Besides, Marriott has ROFR and some people will refuse to buy them even thought they are presently not exercising that right.


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## Vacation Dude (Nov 26, 2008)

jlayne9 said:


> Hey guys and gals-
> I am new to the timeshare website and considering buying a timeshare.  My wife and I truly enjoying skiing and go each year.  We have been looking at purchasing at a ski resort such as Park City Mountainside and have seen a seller willing to let one go for about 25K.  Since I am new to this, all of the research I have done tells me this is a decent deal but I am not sure.  Any ideas on what the going prices should be in the current state of things for a Park City Marriot Mountainside 2BR 2 BA lockoff unit?  Any help would be appreciated as I definitley do not want to make a huge mistake in this purchase.



That is an awesome price if it is a true ski week. In fact, they used to sell for $30k last year on the resale. I have heard some really great MS/SW buys lately (under 20k???), but have to question if it is true or not.


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## sernow (Nov 26, 2008)

Vacation Dude said:


> That is an awesome price if it is a true ski week. In fact, they used to sell for $30k last year on the resale. I have heard some really great MS/SW buys lately (under 20k???), but have to question if it is true or not.


 
It is true (or at least one screaming deal was because it was so great I verified it with the broker), you just have to be in the right place at the right time and willing to act immediately.


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## Lawlar (Nov 26, 2008)

*Ain't It The Truth*



tango said:


> Reminds me of that ad, where the old mechanic announces it's time to hang it up and sell the shop, and in the next scene, the shop purchase is the dream of the new retiree.



How do you think I feel when I read this post?  I sold my bankruptcy law practice a few years ago when times were good.  I could be making a fortune today filing bankruptcies, instead of enjoying my days at the beach.

I don't know how long this cycle will last.  But another boom will come in time.


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## jlayne9 (Nov 26, 2008)

*Marriott Mountainside*

The question for me is...do I buy when it is at 24-25K and have a better shot of Marriott not exercising their ROFR or do I wait for the "in the right place at the right time" and get something REALLY cheaper but then have a greater risk of losing it on ROFR?
Also, for all of you veteran timeshare owners...
My wife and I have no children yet.  We ski every year and have thought that it might be a better idea to buy a ski week and then trade the lockoff for somewhere else later in the year, thereby utilizing the other half for our ski week.  This would allow us two good weeks of first class vacationing a year...one of which would be skiing.  Otherwise, I have seen it utterly impossible to trade into a good ski week from owning somewhere else that might actually be cheaper on the buy in. 
Finally, at this point in our lives my wife and i could technically rent hotel rooms at some of the same resorts for what the MF are, but it is hard to estimate the future value of a timeshare when you dont yet have children. So, I am wondering if it is a smart move to possibly buy in now at possibly a cheaper inital fee and have it later...or just wait and keep renting hotel rooms?  Any help appreciated


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## ondeadlin (Nov 26, 2008)

Time to bail.

I truly believe we're in a fundamental meltdown of the timeshare market that will impact resale prices for years, if not a decade.

I mean, seriously, when you take a step back, there is no reasonable economic justification for a single timeshare week being worth $10,000, let alone $40,000. None. Zero. It's completely illogical. That reality was covered up by some very good economic times in the U.S., but there's no covering it up right now.

I can think of few items people will immediately dump to raise cash faster than their timeshare when things go bad - even if it means taking a loss. That's what's driving the resale market down right now and will continue to drive it down for the foreseeable future.

From a developer standpoint, I can think of few items that are more reliant on disposable income. Now disposable income is in short supply, so the developers are really hurting.

How do you think they'll mitigate that hurt? Higher management fees at established resorts, which will go right to your MFs. Don't like it? Well, too bad, you can't afford to dump Marriott, because if you do, your best weeks will immediately be nearly worthless (doubt it? check out prime ski weeks at Marriott Streamside or how the ex-Marriott Hilton Head properties are faring).

There are some bargains to be had on the resale market. If you're very specific in your needs, get a very good price, and can tolerate the risk, this might be a buying opportunity.

But if you're contemplating buying developer, you better realize you might lose 80 percent of your value almost immediately.

And if you made smart resale purchases like Steve, might be time to take whatever profits you can get, or cut your losses, and sit on the sidelines for a while.


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## ondeadlin (Nov 26, 2008)

I ski with my family every year.

Last year we stayed at Mountainside, Summit Watch and Westgate's property at The Canyons. This year we're already booked for Mountain Vista in Avon. In each case, we're targeting specific dates to line up with kids' vacations.

Every one of those weeks was obtained by trading a resale week I purchased for less than $500.

There's no need - none - to spend $25k on a timeshare if you want to ski.


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## jlayne9 (Nov 26, 2008)

ondeadlin said:


> I ski with my family every year.
> 
> Last year we stayed at Mountainside, Summit Watch and Westgate's property at The Canyons. This year we're already booked for Mountain Vista in Avon. In each case, we're targeting specific dates to line up with kids' vacations.
> 
> ...



Can you give me (as a neabie) some ideas of properties that would fall in this category of the property that you have and used for trade purposes to get in good resorts?


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## timeos2 (Nov 26, 2008)

*The worst hasn't hit yet.*



ondeadlin said:


> Time to bail.
> 
> I truly believe we're in a fundamental meltdown of the timeshare market that will impact resale prices for years, if not a decade.



Right or wrong in the long term  I'm in 100% with your comments. If you already own, plan to use and are comfortable with the fees and where they are headed hang on to what you own. If you're looking to bail, plan on getting next to nothing but freedom from those annual fees (which may be worth the bail). Buy now? Except for the $1 deal on a week you covet to use for the next 10+ years -  no way. Call me risk adverse but there is no way I'm risking my cash on the remote chance this will turn around anytime in the next decade. In fact my bet is we haven't started to see the worst of it yet. 

We could both be wrong. But I'll bet we're right. $10,000 for a timeshare today? Dream on....


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## tango (Nov 26, 2008)

I've wondered how timeshare financing works?  Does cash raised by MF's get lumped in the same pot as cash raised by sales?  Or are they sequestered, sales for building, MF's for maintenance?  
Seems like developers need to make money somehow, and if they don't do it by sales, it has to come from the owners.  
Thing is, people on this board who are knowledgeable have been benefitting from the ignorance of others who buy at developer prices; they subsidize our cheap vacations.  However, this is a situation that cannot last, and actually this board, by spreading the resale gospel, is undermining it's own free lunch.  The more buyers are educated against the tactics of the developer, the more difficult it is for Marriott to actually sell at developer prices.  But the costs of building and maintaining our resorts remain.  Someone has to pay.
I have confidence in this.  In the future, I will still need to go on vacations.  And while there may not be the huge disparity between timeshare and rental that there has been in the past, but, I still believe that it will be true that timesharing will be the equivalent of buying in bulk, as compared to piecemeal.  
In the good times, there were many who felt that the developer prices, were worth the cost for the opportunity.  I do not believe that human nature has changed all that much going forward.  The good times will roll again.


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## AwayWeGo (Nov 26, 2008)

*Timeshare Company Has To Keep Its Mitts Off The Maintenance Fee Money.*




tango said:


> Does cash raised by MF's get lumped in the same pot as cash raised by sales?  Or are they sequestered, sales for building, MF's for maintenance?
> Seems like developers need to make money somehow, and if they don't do it by sales, it has to come from the owners.


Timeshare maintenance fees -- consisting of components for (1) operations & maintenance, (2) reserves, & (3) taxes -- are paid to the condo homeowner association that actually runs the timeshare resort.  But until a timeshare is sold out, or close to it, the HOA is apt to be under the control of the timeshare company. 

Even so, the timeshare company's bottom line depends strictly on sales of "new" timeshare units (even though there's no such thing as a new timeshare unit, because except for the very 1st occupant the very 1st time, they're all _used-used-used_ by the time anybody gets there & checks in). 

Maintenance fee money is strictly to operate the timeshare resort, pay the taxes, & build up a cash reserve for future major renovations.  That's supposed to be the case whether the timeshare company is calling the shots or whether resort management has been taken over by an independent, owner-controlled HOA. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## timeos2 (Nov 26, 2008)

*Totally separate if run right*



tango said:


> I've wondered how timeshare financing works?  Does cash raised by MF's get lumped in the same pot as cash raised by sales?  Or are they sequestered, sales for building, MF's for maintenance?
> Seems like developers need to make money somehow, and if they don't do it by sales, it has to come from the owners.
> Thing is, people on this board who are knowledgeable have been benefitting from the ignorance of others who buy at developer prices; they subsidize our cheap vacations.  However, this is a situation that cannot last, and actually this board, by spreading the resale gospel, is undermining it's own free lunch.  The more buyers are educated against the tactics of the developer, the more difficult it is for Marriott to actually sell at developer prices.  But the costs of building and maintaining our resorts remain.  Someone has to pay.
> I have confidence in this.  In the future, I will still need to go on vacations.  And while there may not be the huge disparity between timeshare and rental that there has been in the past, but, I still believe that it will be true that timesharing will be the equivalent of buying in bulk, as compared to piecemeal.
> In the good times, there were many who felt that the developer prices, were worth the cost for the opportunity.  I do not believe that human nature has changed all that much going forward.  The good times will roll again.



Although the lines get too blurred in far too many cases where developers hold on to ongoing management of resorts legally sales and operations are completely separate operations. Resorts should not have any dependence on sales to operate as once they are built and have individual owners those owners pay to operate the HOA.  Sales revenue pays back the developer plus, in the past, a big profit margin IF the resort is a success.  They have no claim on operational income (fees), but when they hang on as management who really knows? Does anyone think Wastegate wouldn't cook the books to survive? They seemingly pay no attention to other regulations and laws so why would accounting be any different? 

In general once the resort is majority individually owned there should be no commingling of sales and operations/maintenance revenues.  Doesn't hurt to monitor and make sure they issue an independent annual audit just to be sure.


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## Vacation Dude (Nov 26, 2008)

ondeadlin said:


> I ski with my family every year.
> 
> Last year we stayed at Mountainside, Summit Watch and Westgate's property at The Canyons. This year we're already booked for Mountain Vista in Avon. In each case, we're targeting specific dates to line up with kids' vacations.
> 
> ...



If you consistently want to get a Feb-March ski week, you MUST own a ski week.....trading is a shot in the dark for ski weeks.

If you think you can consistently get a Marriott MS/SW during Feb-March with a $500 trader, you are dreaming.

Marriott SW/MS can be rented on vrbo, redweek, etc and that is also an option rather than buying.

But buying MS/SW for under $20k would be a fantastic deal for the original poster and their idea of squeezing two weeks out of it.


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## tombo (Nov 27, 2008)

tango said:


> Thing is, people on this board who are knowledgeable have been benefitting from the ignorance of others who buy at developer prices; they subsidize our cheap vacations.  However, this is a situation that cannot last, and actually this board, by spreading the resale gospel, is undermining it's own free lunch.  The more buyers are educated against the tactics of the developer, the more difficult it is for Marriott to actually sell at developer prices.  But the costs of building and maintaining our resorts remain.  Someone has to pay.



Would you suggest that we sit silently by while the uneducated get fleeced? We can't save everyone but we can at least attempt to save those that find this site. I have actually told people with new owners packets that they made a huge mistake and that they needed to rescind when I saw them leave a sales presentation. Whether they did or not, at least they were warned.

If no more timeshares are ever built most of us already own enough to vacation the rest of our lives. I don't feel that we have profited on the mistakes of others, the developers are the one's who profit on the uninformed. We simply buy weeks that people no longer want or can't afford at resale prices. I can sleep a lot better knowing that I saved a few people a lot of money than I would keeping quiet hoping that many more unfortunate people will pay to build new resorts that I can buy cheap down the road. I don't care if any developer ever sells another week, but I do care that many people are tricked into spending a lot of money on a week that is worth almost nothing as soon as they buy it.


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## Latravel (Nov 27, 2008)

Tango and Tombo, which Marriott do you currently own?


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## ondeadlin (Nov 27, 2008)

Vacation Dude said:


> If you consistently want to get a Feb-March ski week, you MUST own a ski week.....trading is a shot in the dark for ski weeks.
> 
> If you think you can consistently get a Marriott MS/SW during Feb-March with a $500 trader, you are dreaming.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong on both points.

In the last three years, my family has traded into Mountainside, Summit Watch, Grand Timber Lodge, Streamside, Sheraton Mountain Vista and Timber Lodge (could have had a great Grand Residence trade first week of April 2 years ago as well, but was out of vacation time).

Those trades have spanned the gamet from January to early April. They were almost all for 2BR. Almost none of them came in flex.

A Summit Watch week went for $13k recently on Holiday, incidentally.

It always strikes me as funny when people who have never tried to trade into ski season with a cheap resale week insist it can't be done ... mostly because that's what they've been told by salespeople to feel good about spending $20k to $45k on a ski week.

But, hey, more power to you man, without guys like you, there'd be no great trades for guys like me.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 27, 2008)

tango said:


> Thing is, people on this board who are knowledgeable have been benefitting from the ignorance of others who buy at developer prices; they subsidize our cheap vacations.  However, this is a situation that cannot last, and actually this board, by spreading the resale gospel, is undermining it's own free lunch.  The more buyers are educated against the tactics of the developer, the more difficult it is for Marriott to actually sell at developer prices.  But the costs of building and maintaining our resorts remain.  Someone has to pay.



TUG represents probably less than 0.5% of the TS owners. So our impact on the overall TS market will be minimal. For each of those people who find us before plunking down tens of thousands on a TS there are hundreds of others that don't. I don't think we are going to bust the TS developers banks by educating those few who find these boards.


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## tango (Nov 27, 2008)

Didn't mean to imply that people shouldn't be warned about making mistakes.  Only that whenever there is a price disparity, the market tends to equalize in the long run, so those who have been on the benefitting side of the equation shouldn't really be distressed when eventually the disparity is corrected.
And, I wasn't really afraid that the information on this board would change the world.  I know that the vast majority still are unaware of the info provided here.  Thence, once the economy improves, that vast majority will be back.  
However, it does seem that from the other answers, that rising MF's are a different subject.  I still think though that in the end market forces will prevail on MF's and they will still end up to be more of a bargain than renting (especially if you get your TS for a buck).
We're in the process of owning at Ko Olina.


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## kjd (Nov 27, 2008)

*Time to buy or sell?*

Everyone has a different perspective but inho the time to buy (developer purchase or resale) is when you have the money to spend and want to have the timeshare experience for a number of years at places you want to vacation.  Market conditions are secondary. 

Timeshares are not an investment.  They are like a golf membership or a car lease.  They are merely a license to use a property under certain terms and conditions.  Therefore there is no loss of money.  There is only a loss of opportunity if you didn't make full use of the opportunity.

While the resale prices are somewhat negotiable they are a bargain in the current economic enviornment.  However, resale buyers also give up the advantages of points which are most important to some Marriott owners.  If points are not important then resale is a better option.  Points can be a terrific advantage for foreign travel or if traveling becomes more expensive in the future.

Most sellers in todays' market cannot expect full value.  Even if you bought resale.   Cash is king these days.  It's a buyers market.


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## Latravel (Nov 27, 2008)

If you bought from Marriott, I wouldn't sell.

Since I bought my units from Marriott, I haven't paid for a hotel stay in years.  I know I will continue to travel for many years in the future and without my units, I would have to pay those expensive hotel costs.  Since hotel costs keep going up, my timeshares are worth more to me each and every year because of this unique ability.

That is what separates Marriott from those other cheap timeshares (I have one of those too), that are being sold for next to nothing on the resale market.


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## Vacation Dude (Nov 27, 2008)

My point about trading into Marriott Park City for ski weeks is if your kids have spring break the first week of March they you are limited to trying to trade into a 2 bedroom MS/SW at that exact time only.

There may be studios, 1 bedrooms, etc for various trade times, but not CONSISTENT 2 bedrooms ski weeks 11 months out. 

Then consider you generally like to book air fare ASAP, especially if you use FF points.

If someone can buy MS/SW 2 bedroom TRUE ski week (thanksgiving-tax day) for $13,000 or so, then I take my hat off to you as I have never seen one for under $20,000.


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## sernow (Nov 27, 2008)

Latravel said:


> ...without my units, I would have to pay those expensive hotel costs. Since hotel costs keep going up, my timeshares are worth more to me each and every year because of this unique ability.


 
Heidi,

Please help me understand your thinking here. I don't know how many points you received initially from Marriott from buying, but will stipulate that these bonus points clearly have value (although I'm not sure of the exact value) and must be deducted from the initial cost to determine the actual cost of the timeshare. What I don't understand is the contention that your ability to trade your timeshares for points makes them more valuable each year because hotel costs keep going up.

You can only trade your week in for a fixed amount of points, and that amount was determined when you bought. That fixed amount of points are continually devalued as maintenance fees go up and as Marriott requires more and more points for rewards. Add in the exchange fee of $104, which I'm sure goes up too, and you can see my confusion. 

In addition, anyone can buy up to 50k points per calendar year from Marriott for $625. A spouse is entitled to do the same and these points can be combined at the time of redemption. Points can also be earned through a the Visa rewards card. The ability to earn points aren't exclusive to MVCI ownership. 

What is your reasoning behind the claim that trading a very expensive to buy and maintain timeshare for points is a good deal and the value of doing so increases each year?


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## ondeadlin (Nov 27, 2008)

Latravel said:


> Since hotel costs keep going up, my timeshares are worth more to me each and every year because of this unique ability.
> 
> That is what separates Marriott from those other cheap timeshares (I have one of those too), that are being sold for next to nothing on the resale market.



The problem with this theory is that Marriott just seriously devalued the points program by raising the points required for awards.

The points program, always a very marginal investment, is now flat-out a bad deal unless you're wracking points on business travel.


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## Steve (Nov 27, 2008)

Latravel said:


> Since I bought my units from Marriott, I haven't paid for a hotel stay in years.



This could work if you only want to stay in Marriott hotels, I suppose, but what if you want to stay other places?  For example, two of my favorite vacation destinations are Jackson Hole and Santa Barbara.  Not only do these locations not have Marriott timeshares, they don't even have ANY brand of Marriott hotels.  I also love the Glacier National Park area of Montana and the Oregon Coast.  Again, no Marriotts. Despite how large Marriott is, there are tons of locations all over North America and Europe without Marriott hotels.

What do you do about that?  Do you just skip locations that don't have Marriott hotels?  Even in cities that have Marriotts, sometimes they aren't where I want to stay due to location or various other factors.  Timeshares are somewhat restrictive by themselves.  The last thing I want when I go on a non-timeshare vacation is to be restricted to only one hotel chain.

It's interesting that people who buy directly from Marriott often cite the increased flexibility of being able to exchange their weeks for Marriott Reward Points as worth the extra cost.  If this leads you to only travel to places that have Marriott hotels, however, then I find that confining.  I don't want to be locked into just Marriott hotels because I spent so much on my timeshares from Marriott that I can't justify paying for hotels on my non-timeshare trips. That just takes a lot of the fun out of travel. 

Steve


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## csalter2 (Nov 27, 2008)

*You need to think "It's gravy"*

I have been reading a lot about people being so upset about the devaluation of Marriott Rewards Points and the ability to stay at a timeshare or hotel. 

The bottom line is this. There is flexibility with your timeshare and sometimes you can trade for the points. As a buyer from the developer that is merely an option. However, any of these points if used wisely should just be considered gravy. That's all. Or if you don't like gravy, call it icing on your cake. 

I will never pay $625 dollars for points. However, I use my premier visa and get 5 points on the dollar. I pay for everying on on Visa. I pay my monthly bills, all my goodies every month and I get all of these points each month. My wife travels all over North America using our Visa for business. We build up all of these points each and every month and that along with her airline miles gets us to places. Last summer we traveled to Puerto Rico, Orlando and Japan on Marriott Rewards points along with her Continental FF miles which we pay for with Marriott's Visa. My total cost was $75.00 which is the cost of the card. Gravy baby, Gravy. Nothing out of pocket. Oh, and when she and her mother stayed at the Marquis in New York for a week. That was icing. Nothing out of pocket. 

This should be the way everyone should be using the MR system. There should not be any additional costs if you use it as a reward like it is suppose to be. You are being rewarded for being a frequent customer. You have to spend the money anyway, so use your Visa and pick up the points. I only own one week with Marriott at Ko Olina. I don't go to Hawaii all of the time, but I exchange it or use points. I like that flexibility. The points come in handy if I am traveling to places that don't have timeshares. It is just another option. 

I would suggest that people stop complaining so much when this is really something that you could get for nothing if you do it right. I have a huge line of credit with our Marriott Visa and we pay it each month and it cost us to travel to very nice places the cost of the card. If you put things in the proper perspective and think about what you're doing you really have no need to complain. 

Think gravy baby, gravy. It is a perk. No more no less.


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## ondeadlin (Nov 27, 2008)

csalter2 said:


> Think gravy baby, gravy. It is a perk. No more no less.



Hey, if it makes you happy, that's what matters.

But with MR points being the only significant thing you get for paying between $10,000 and $30,000 more than resale for ... I'd call it a pretty expensive perk.


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## Latravel (Nov 27, 2008)

It's amazing to me that people only mention the "devaluation" of points but never mention that hotel stays are costing MUCH more than they used to.  The amount of points needed for a hotel stay seem to be in corelation to the hotel costs.  I agree, why complain when it's a free perk!

If I didn't have this perk, all my unit would be good for is just using that week.  We know that the value of this week just keeps tanking.

Regarding being forced to stay in Marriott.  It's true it's a little more confining.  When we were trying to book a Marriott hotel in Venice using points, there was only one option that wasn't very good.  On the other hand, at least the hotel stay is FREE.  Not a bad trade off if you ask me.  But the bottom line, having the option to stay in hotels is a lot more flexible than just staying at timeshares.


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## ondeadlin (Nov 27, 2008)

Latravel said:


> On the other hand, at least the hotel stay is FREE.  Not a bad trade off if you ask me.  But the bottom line, having the option to stay in hotels is a lot more flexible than just staying at timeshares.



The hotel wasn't free, though.

Not even close.

If you traded your timeshare for it, it cost you the better part of two years MFs, plus the premium you paid to buy developer.

Now, you can make various economic arguments to show it was a better deal using points - powershift is probably best at it - but even he wouldn't use the word "free", because it's not free, not by any means.

Even if you got just used the credit card and charged $170,000 to get the points, that wouldn't mean it was free. I've get 1.5 percent cash back on my Amex (5 percent on groceries and gas), so if I charged the same amount, I'd get back at least $2,250 back. I don't consider it free money, though, it's the rebate I contract for.

It's all relative and there are various strategies, but it's nowhere near free.


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## Steve (Nov 27, 2008)

Latravel said:


> But the bottom line, having the option to stay in hotels is a lot more flexible than just staying at timeshares.



You've missed my point.  With the difference between what Marriott charges for a timeshare week and what you can buy a Marriott week for on the resale market, you can stay in a LOT of hotels.  You have the ultimate flexibility when you travel outside of your timeshare because you have all that cash savings from the timeshare purchase price to stay in any hotel, anywhere, anytime...with no worries about points or having to stay in a Marriott. 

Spending $30,000 for a timeshare eats up a lot of capital.  I can see why you'd want to find a way to use points for your hotel stays.  If you buy the same timeshare for $6000, then you have a heck of a lot more capital left to spend on any hotels of your choice.

Steve


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## Steve (Nov 27, 2008)

kjd said:


> Everyone has a different perspective but inho the time to buy (developer purchase or resale) is when you have the money to spend and want to have the timeshare experience for a number of years at places you want to vacation.  Market conditions are secondary.



This is a valid point.  I'm always concious to try and only buy timeshares at a price where I feel confident that I could resell them for the same price or more later.  However, if one has the money and wants to purchase something as a lifestyle choice, then the market conditions may not be the most important issue.

Of course, things change and my timeshare preferences aren't the same today as they were nine years ago when I bought my first timeshare at Sanibel Beach Club II in Florida (or my first Marriott at Harbour Point in 2000).  Lots to think about.

Steve


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## pwrshift (Nov 27, 2008)

When using MR points, staying at a top-rated hotel with a rack rate of 400 UK pounds and checking out without having to pay taxes does seem like it's free. But it's not. Marriott sells the points for $0.0125 each and that is the basis on which I calculate how good a deal I'm getting. If I can stay in a Cat7 hotel (present list) for 150,000 MR points, the cost of those points is $1875 for the week. A false deal if you're paying $268 a night - because even then, you are just breaking even so I'd pay the cash and earn points. 

But if the hotel is $500+ a night, like a lot of the European ones, there's no contest IMO. Even here, there's prime time pricing...The JW Desert Ridge is $599 a night in March/April 09 -- but your chances under the former 'standard' points chart are almost nil - hopefully the new system will work better during prime time, albeit for more points.

If you throw in what the Cat7 week certificate you get with a Cat7 package of 120k FF miles it's even better value. But still not free.  But what a way to go!  On a long flight in Biz class, take a walk through economy and you'll be stunned...it's like another world.

In the old days, I bought MSE and MCV for less than $18,000 in 2001-2 and got over a million points for my $36,000. That valued out about $40,000 worth of hotel/business air trips (rack rates) to Europe so it feels more like the timeshares were free, but then I paid $36,000 for the trips. 

Confusing for sure, but it's really how you look at it. I wouldn't want to pay $5000 a seat for biz class to Rome either, and might suffer in economy (maybe buy two seats instead) -- but the MR points afforded biz class for me, many times. Same with the hotels -- would I really pay cash to stay in a $500 a night hotel? Maybe not, but I have had great holidays on points in ways I once thought unaffordable, and still have more timeshare weeks than I can use so I still trade in two weeks a year for points to use on trips, devaluation or not...as a way of replenishing what we use. 

Just booked my daughter on a biz class flight to Madrid for a special birthday ... used 80,000 FF miles ... rack price from Air Canada would have been $3898 and she's in a cabin that has bed/entertainment units and seat only 3 people across. Nice.

Brian

btw ... travel is down so much these days that I've not had any problems booking air or hotels on points anywhere...just do it soon to escape the new points requirement. Enjoy.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 27, 2008)

ondeadlin said:


> I mean, seriously, when you take a step back, there is no reasonable economic justification for a single timeshare week being worth $10,000, let alone $40,000. None. Zero. It's completely illogical. That reality was covered up by some very good economic times in the U.S., but there's no covering it up right now.



You are completely and utterly wrong on this point.  First and foremost, a product is worth what someone is willing to pay for it of their own free will.  There are plenty of timeshare intervals that people are willing to pay $10000 or more for in today's bad market.  If you don't understand that, you don't understand the basic prinicples of the free market.

As far as economic justification, if you are purchasing a timeshare that is dramatically below its underlying real estate value, then, it could be a very good buy.  Also, if the total cost of ownership (cost of capital plus annual fees) is below the expected rental value, then that's a great economic justification for a purchase.

Moreover, if you are a wholesaler and purchase timeshares below their market value and sell them at the market value, that is a very good reason to buy.  And, there are people doing it today.

If anything, since prices are even more depressed today, there are more reasons to buy than every before.  Please dump your timeshares for $1 on eBay.  More deals for smart shoppers.


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## ondeadlin (Nov 27, 2008)

Well, Boca, based on your linked sites, I've always believed you're associated with timeshare sales. Am I correct in this? If so, I hope you'll understand if I view your perspective as somewhat influenced by that fact.


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## billymach4 (Nov 27, 2008)

*Yes Buy !*

Marriott is a name brand that is not going away! 

They have always kept prices artificially high via ROFR. 

Hands down this is the buying opportunity of the century. 

BUY! BUY! BUY!    

I did !!! I hope you all will  as well.


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## Latravel (Nov 28, 2008)

_"You've missed my point. With the difference between what Marriott charges for a timeshare week and what you can buy a Marriott week for on the resale market, you can stay in a LOT of hotels. "_

Steve-
You would be correct except you left out one main point.  When you buy from the developer, you receive a lot of incentive points.  In my case, these points "bought" me a vacation worth the difference of price between what I paid developer and resale (sometimes I feel like a broken record).  After the initial price difference is made up from that vacation, all the other years of trading in my unit for hotel stays (if I want) is just a really nice option to have that gives us a lot of flexibility in case I want to go to Europe one year.  At that point, this option has not cost me anything extra  (since I made up the price difference already).  It's much nicer than having to be stuck in my timeshare world.  Actually, it's one of the main reasons my husband and I chose a timeshare associated with a hotel brand.  We bought from the developer on purpose and it's been everything we expected and more.


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## davidvel (Nov 28, 2008)

Latravel said:


> _"You've missed my point. With the difference between what Marriott charges for a timeshare week and what you can buy a Marriott week for on the resale market, you can stay in a LOT of hotels. "_
> 
> Steve-
> You would be correct except you left out one main point.  When you buy from the developer, you receive a lot of incentive points.  In my case, these points "bought" me a vacation worth the difference of price between what I paid developer and resale (sometimes I feel like a broken record).



Heidi-

In order to evaluate your statement we need to know how much you paid for what resort and how many TRUE *incentive* points you received. (Not including points for years that you could not occupy and paid MF, etc.)

It is doubtful that this is more than the difference between developer and resale. But to know we need to know what the incentive points received and retail cost paid was, and compare to the resale price



Latravel said:


> After the initial price difference is made up from that vacation, all the other years of trading in my unit for hotel stays (if I want) is just a really nice option to have that gives us a lot of flexibility in case I want to go to Europe one year.  At that point, this option has not cost me anything extra  (since I made up the price difference already).  It's much nicer than having to be stuck in my timeshare world.  Actually, it's one of the main reasons my husband and I chose a timeshare associated with a hotel brand.  We bought from the developer on purpose and it's been everything we expected and more.


Most people contend that the "option" you refer to (paying your annual MF + points fee in exchange for x points) is no more a deal than what ANYone can buy the same points for directly from Marriott.


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## Latravel (Nov 28, 2008)

In a previous post somewhere I listed the details.  I don't want to restate everything again.  I do remember stating the difference was around $16K and there was a lot of discussion on how a trip for 2 for 2 weeks in a cat 7 hotel plus 2 business class airfare (which is what I could get with my incentive points) could cost $16k .  People then argued that business class airfare is not really very expensive which resulted in others searching on travel sites for the exact cost.

Bottom line, the trip was worth the price difference so some stated that a person really wouldn't take such an expensive trip.  Some do and some don't.

It's true that ANYone can purchase 50k points per year or 100k per couple from Marriott  but that doesn't buy you anything.  Trading in your timeshare plus adding some points you can purchase from Marriott could get you a non-timeshare vacation per year.  If you don't have the ability to trade for points, you have to wait up to 3 years to buy and save enough points for a vacation in addition to paying your MF, which doesn't seem worth it to me.


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## ondeadlin (Nov 28, 2008)

$6,900 for EOY 2BR Ko-Olina lockoff yesterday on eBay. They were selling the same week for $22,000+ this summer when we visited Hawaii.

And the bottom isn't here yet:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=260319355095


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## davidvel (Nov 28, 2008)

Latravel said:


> I don't want to restate everything again.


I agree. 

I think that many people have decided that the incentive points at purchase either are or are not worth the difference between developer pricing and resale. 

And, the "perk" of having the option to "buy" about 100K of points in exchange for your week and about $1000 in MF and other fees, either IS or IS NOT a "perk."


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## ricki999 (Nov 28, 2008)

> ...a product is worth what someone is willing to pay for it of their own free will. There are plenty of timeshare intervals that people are willing to pay $10000 or more for in today's bad market. If you don't understand that, you don't understand the basic prinicples of the free market.



I'm not an economist, but isn't "Price" what the free market sets, and "Worth" linked to the "value" someone derives from the product?


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