# VSN Features/Benefits Reduction and Elimination Post Abound Launch [Call to Action]



## DanCali (Aug 24, 2022)

It appears that, based on recently released information, most VSN owners will likely be adversely impacted to varying degrees when using their ownership within the VSN ecosystem, whether they join Abound or not.









						8/24/22 NEW THREAD:  Discussion of new Abound/VSN Documents [please limit chitchat posts]
					

I thought it would be good to have a fresh start on this topic, since we are now discussing the actual new published terms, rather than just speculation.   • I moved all of the posts from 8/24/22 to this thread, starting with the Docs posted on Vistana.   • Please avoid off topic chitchat posts...




					tugbbs.com
				




Some of the upcoming changes include:

- Banked Staroptions will expire after 12 months (18 months for Presidential; 24 months for Chairman).  
*                  Currently it's 24 months for all. **(Impacts all except 5-Star Elite / Chairman, and resale voluntary)*
- Banking Staroptions deadlines will be 31-61 days earlier for most Elite owners (Oct 31 for Chairman and Aug 31 for Executive or Presidential). 
*                  Currently it's December 31 for 5-Star and Oct 1 for 3-Star and 4-Star.  **(Impacts mostly VSN Elite Owners)*
- No more early checkin and late checkout.
*                  Currently it's a benefit for 5-Star Elite (Impacts 5-Star Elite Owners)*

Why take away a benefit literally every single developer buyer had (2-year banking)? Why cancel the Elite program (and some associated benefits) altogether, which impacts some of their most loyal customers? 

In my view, if they are keeping the VSN Exchange alive, there is really no reason to get rid of the VSN banking rules and the VSN Elite program altogether. Banked Staroptions can still have a 2-year life while banked Abound points can have a 12-24 month life.  Staroptions can also have different banking deadlines than Abound points. And Elite owners using Staroptions to reserve at a VSN resort can retain the few extra benefits they were promised. To me, these changes seem unnecessary and to some extent disrespect the Vistana system we all liked enough to buy into. Even if they don't sell the product anymore, there are tens of thousands of owners who will be adversely impacted by these changes. It could have been done differently...

If you feel similarly to some degree, I suggest you call owner services, ask for a supervisor ("resolution services") and voice your displeasure. Perhaps some of these issues can be rectified if we make our feelings known.


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## cubigbird (Aug 24, 2022)

The 5* StarOptions Banking deadline is currently Dec 31st.  The movement of the deadline back to October is an adverse change for the owners that have paid the most money.  Certainly biting the hand that has fed them.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 24, 2022)

Probably better to contact Marriott Customer Advocacy Dept.

I was in contact with them a couple of months ago regarding the website.

Ray Filippone
Director Customer Advocacy
CUSTOMER ADVOCACY

800-860-9384
ray.filippone@mvwc.com


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sv1plat52 (Aug 24, 2022)

I have EOY so I am double F because I will never be able to double my points usage for a year. I was planning to splurge on 3 bedroom LO one of these years…


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## EnglishmanAbroad (Aug 24, 2022)

As far as I recall, banking options wasn't a benefit when I purchased in 2005 or maybe at that time it was simply that we weren't Elite?


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## VacationForever (Aug 24, 2022)

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> As far as I recall, banking options wasn't a benefit when I purchased in 2005 or maybe at that time it was simply that we weren't Elite?


Banking wasn't an option back then.  I remember that you had to use all your Star Options or simply deposit into II.  I declined to join SVN for about 8 years before finally joining when they said it would not be offered to me again, in 2008.


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## DanCali (Aug 24, 2022)

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> As far as I recall, banking options wasn't a benefit when I purchased in 2005 or maybe at that time it was simply that we weren't Elite?



Banking is a benefit that all owners who have staroptions can enjoy. I am not quite sure at what point it was added as a benefit. 

The only thing that is different with the elite levels is just the deadline until which point during the year you can bank in Staroptions


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DanCali (Aug 24, 2022)

Sv1plat52 said:


> I have EOY so I am double F because I will never be able to double my points usage for a year. I was planning to splurge on 3 bedroom LO one of these years…



Could you do it with a bank/borrow transaction? It would probably have to be in the years in which you do not actually own usage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cubigbird (Aug 24, 2022)

Being able to bank up until the end of the year is/or was one of the most valuable 5* elite benefits.  MVC is taking away value by this change, not adding value.  It will certainly be a factor in holding off on adding to our portfolio.


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## pchung6 (Aug 24, 2022)

It is just the first step evil Marriott will take every good things away. Just look what happened to SPG, Marriott will slowly take something away every year.


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## EnglishmanAbroad (Aug 24, 2022)

DanCali said:


> Banking is a benefit that all owners who have staroptions can enjoy. I am not quite sure at what point it was added as a benefit.
> 
> The only thing that is different with the elite levels is just the deadline until which point during the year you can bank in Staroptions
> 
> ...


As I said, it was added after we purchased so there's no way it will be in our documentation and therefore it's probably a 'benefit' they feel they can retire. It doesn't mean I like it.


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## Sv1plat52 (Aug 24, 2022)

DanCali said:


> Could you do it with a bank/borrow transaction? It would probably have to be in the years in which you do not actually own usage.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



We’ll have to see how it goes, because the added issue of booking at 8 months. I am assuming there won’t be much inventory since you can book at 12 with points and more competition for the good resorts.


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## RunCat (Aug 24, 2022)

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> As far as I recall, banking options wasn't a benefit when I purchased in 2005 or maybe at that time it was simply that we weren't Elite?


I was in sales in 2007 and it was not available at the time.  The inability to bank was actually sold as a benefit.


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## cubigbird (Aug 24, 2022)

pchung6 said:


> It is just the first step evil Marriott will take every good things away. Just look what happened to SPG, Marriott will slowly take something away every year.


There certainly is precedent there.  Marriott basically gutted what value SPG provided.


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## CPNY (Aug 24, 2022)

I think all of the Marriott people will owe us vistana people a public apology on here. When we voiced concerns over Marriott as a company with terrible customer service we were called conspiracy theorists or basically told to stay quiet as this was a take over not a merger. All things are pointing to US being right.


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## Jayco29D (Aug 24, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I think all of the Marriott people will owe us vistana people a public apology on here. When we voiced concerns over Marriott as a company with terrible customer service we were called conspiracy theorists or basically told to stay quiet as this was a take over not a merger. All things are pointing to US being right.



Maybe not. Free enrollment of mandatory resales was a big surprise and worth a lot. Many MVC owners are not happy about all the Vistana owners being able to book up Marriott resorts. Some Marriott owners do not see any benefit to the Vistana resorts and do not want a bunch more people competing for their favorite resorts. You can look at this different ways.


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## Red elephant (Aug 24, 2022)

Well this will be my reason for not buying any club points when they ask me in October at the sales presentation in WKV.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 24, 2022)

DanCali said:


> Could you do it with a bank/borrow transaction? It would probably have to be in the years in which you do not actually own usage.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


YOu can only borrow in to a use year. So this won't work.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 24, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> There certainly is precedent there.  Marriott basically gutted what value SPG provided.


Technically a different "Marriott".


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## CPNY (Aug 24, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> The 5* StarOptions Banking deadline is currently Dec 31st.  The movement of the deadline back to October is an adverse change for the owners that have paid the most money.  Certainly biting the hand that has fed them.


They are doing this to force people to put it in abound instead…. Sleazy on marriotts part. What a terrible company. Strip away 2 year banking and push up banking deadline for elite will make abound more appealing. For those elites who don’t want participate are going lose out


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## CPNY (Aug 24, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> Maybe not. Free enrollment of mandatory resales was a big surprise and worth a lot. Many MVC owners are not happy about all the Vistana owners being able to book up Marriott resorts. Some Marriott owners do not see any benefit to the Vistana resorts and do not want a bunch more people competing for their favorite resorts. You can look at this different ways.


Then they lied when they said “you can use your ownership the same way you do today if you choose not to participate”. Also, throwing out a retro date for resales is nefarious in nature.


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## cubigbird (Aug 24, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Then they lied when they said “you can use your ownership the same way you do today if you choose not to participate”. Also, throwing out a retro date for resales is nefarious in nature.


There could be some SEC trouble there since this was said on an investor call.  It’ll be interesting to see if any action is taken.


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## pchung6 (Aug 24, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> Maybe not. Free enrollment of mandatory resales was a big surprise and worth a lot. Many MVC owners are not happy about all the Vistana owners being able to book up Marriott.


I don’t want anything from Marriott even it’s free. It worth zero to me, or negative value. Marriott please take everything back, just don’t let Marriott people book Vistana. I’m fine with everything Vistana provided before.


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## DanCali (Aug 24, 2022)

Sv1plat52 said:


> We’ll have to see how it goes, because the added issue of booking at 8 months. I am assuming there won’t be much inventory since you can book at 12 with points and more competition for the good resorts.




VSN Abound exchanges will not be seeing the same inventory, and therefore not compete for the same inventory.

The Vistana inventory that will be available to book in Abound will be only from weeks that VSN owner actively elected to convert to Abound points for that use year (and potentially additional VSN inventory owned by the MVC Trust). Those weeks will no longer be available in VSN to book - not as home resort and not as Staroptions. No different that someone depositing their week in II. Once it's gone to an outside exchange company it's not in VSN.

The Vistana Inventory that will be available to book with Staroptions will be whatever weeks were not deposited in II or Abound that are still available for booking at 8 months out. Abound cannot access this inventory if it has not been deposited in Abound. Also, owners who elected Abound points will not be competing for this inventory using Staroptions (at least not using the Staroptions they gave up). 

You may get more relative competition for some weeks within VSN. For example, suppose only Maui owners are tempted to elect Abound points. Then now all non-Maui owners in VSN will be competing for fewer remaining Maui weeks. But if no WSJ owners elect Abound, you will have fewer non-WSJ owners competing for WSJ weeks available in VSN (because many Maui owners will be gone). But this type of competition is within VSN at 8 months, not with Abound.


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## DanCali (Aug 24, 2022)

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> As I said, it was added after we purchased so there's no way it will be in our documentation and therefore it's probably a 'benefit' they feel they can retire. It doesn't mean I like it.



It was certainly in my documentation in a more recent purchase than yours.





But so was this - so they can indeed take it away...





Like you said - it doesn't mean we have to like it. But they can't say that it wasn't in the docs. It's very explicit: "two succeeding use years". And as it says on row #1, it applies to all network members - doesn't matter when you bought in.


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## CPNY (Aug 24, 2022)

DanCali said:


> It was certainly in my documentation in a more recent purchase than yours.
> 
> View attachment 63371
> 
> ...


Typical Marriott….. say one thing then do something else to their benefit. I will be dedicating one day per trip to sit outside of the sales office to do post sales presentations education sessions in the parking lot.


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## robertk2012 (Aug 24, 2022)

Maybe we should rent space and do resales next to the snowballs at WKORV



CPNY said:


> Typical Marriott….. say one thing then do something else to their benefit. I will be dedicating one day per trip to sit outside of the sales office to do post sales presentations education sessions in the parking lot.


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## pchung6 (Aug 24, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Typical Marriott….. say one thing then do something else to their benefit. I will be dedicating one day per trip to sit outside of the sales office to do post sales presentations education sessions in the parking lot.


I will be attending sales presentation tomorrow at WKORVN. I will definitely voice my concern and use this as excuse to get out in 30 minutes. This time I won’t feel bad taking 30000 free points. I just took 30k last month at Palm Springs.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 24, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> There could be some SEC trouble there since this was said on an investor call.  It’ll be interesting to see if any action is taken.


I am not sure that it materially impacts earnings though. I don't know the SEC rules, but I am not so sure this would cause a violation and at worst they would probably just need to redisclose.


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## cubigbird (Aug 24, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure that it materially impacts earnings though. I don't know the SEC rules, but I am not so sure this would cause a violation and at worst they would probably just need to redisclose.



A “just kidding” statement.


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## DanCali (Aug 24, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure that it materially impacts earnings though. I don't know the SEC rules, but I am not so sure this would cause a violation and at worst they would probably just need to redisclose.



What also doesn't materially impact earnings or disrupt operations much is giving a handful of loyal owners an extra 2 hours in the unit on the first and/or last day of their vacation...  

They may have too many Chairman to expand this benefit systemwide (presumably because of the enrolled pre-2010 Legacy week owners), but I doubt the number of 5-Star owners is as high percentagewise and they could have easily kept that benefit for Staroptions reservations within Vistana. It's almost like they don't want an MVC Chairman guest to overhear that request in the lobby and get all riled up as to why they can't get the same benefit too. Perhaps that makes more sense to them in the grand picture, but they will be alienating some people who spend a lot of money in the past... And that still doesn't excuse cutting the banking period to one year - VSN is a completely different exchange that Abound-only members can't access anyway. Staroptions are a different animal, used only at a handful or resorts, only at 8 months out and the banking rules and deadlines don't have to be the same.


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## CPNY (Aug 24, 2022)

Sv1plat52 said:


> I have EOY so I am double F because I will never be able to double my points usage for a year. I was planning to splurge on 3 bedroom LO one of these years…


Yup, Marriott really screwed vistana owners with the 1 year banking. We were right when we said Marriott would do what they can to decimate the VSN.


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## cubigbird (Aug 24, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Yup, Marriott really screwed vistana owners with the 1 year banking. We were right when we said Marriott would do what they can to decimate the VSN.



@CPNY Need to get the masses to start communicating with Ray Filippone
Director Customer Advocacy
CUSTOMER ADVOCACY

800-860-9384
ray.filippone@mvwc.com

Might want to share contact info on other social media outlets.  Only way anything could change is for voices to be heard.


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## DanCali (Aug 24, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Yup, Marriott really screwed vistana owners with the 1 year banking. We were right when we said Marriott would do what they can to decimate the VSN.



I really can't pinpoint the reason for the 1-year banking other than aligning VSN and Abound deadlines. But it's neither here nor there... why does that even matter? They own II too and didn't make any alignments there...

With the Elite program, they probably took the view that VSN Elite was providing an incentive to sell product. If they are not selling Vistana product anymore, then VSN Elite is simply dismantled. Those who paid top dollar for some of those lost benefits will just have to live with it. Now they will upsell Abound points to get people to higher Abound Elite levels.

Per the Q&A:



dioxide45 said:


> *I was awarded Elite Level Qualification Credits (ELQC) when I purchased my ownership through Sheraton Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club. What will happen with the ELQC program?*
> 
> The ELQC program has been discontinued. However, ELQCs previously given to Owners have been included in the calculation of VSN 3-, 4-, and 5-Star Elite levels used to determine new Owner benefit levels to the extent applicable.


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## CPNY (Aug 24, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> @CPNY Need to get the masses to start communicating with Ray Filippone
> Director Customer Advocacy
> CUSTOMER ADVOCACY
> 
> ...


Done


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## TravelTime (Aug 24, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Then they lied when they said “you can use your ownership the same way you do today if you choose not to participate”. Also, throwing out a retro date for resales is nefarious in nature.



Technically we can use our ownership the same way as before. From what I gather, the main negative change is the banking deadline. But as others have stated, there was no banking allowed at all in the past. I think the benefit to free enrollment of mandatory resales and getting higher status across all your ownership holdings in the new Abound program more than outweighs a change in banking. There are always people who are not going to be happy with any change. The old saying “buy where you want to stay” is a good one to remember right now.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 24, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Technically we can use our ownership the same way as before. From what I gather, the main negative change is the banking deadline. But as others have stated, there was no banking allowed at all in the past. I think the benefit to free enrollment of mandatory resales and getting higher status across all your ownership holdings more than outweighs a changing in banking.


We honestly don't bank that much anymore. We did a few times in the past and it was nice to have a two year window to use them. Now we end up using most of our StarOptions every year and only a few go to waste as it didn't make sense to bank only a small handful of Options. Of course, in the future, it might make sense to bank them with the $0 banking fee. So you lose some benefits and gain some others.


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## CPNY (Aug 24, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> We honestly don't bank that much anymore. We did a few times in the past and it was nice to have a two year window to use them. Now we end up using most of our StarOptions every year and only a few go to waste as it didn't make sense to bank only a small handful of Options. Of course, in the future, it might make sense to bank them with the $0 banking fee. So you lose some benefits and gain some others.


Can you bank club points? If so, for how many years? 1, 1.5, and 2 years based on ownership level?


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## dioxide45 (Aug 24, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Can you bank club points? If so, for how many years? 1, 1.5, and 2 years based on ownership level?


Same as the new VSN rules and as you stated.


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## timsi (Aug 25, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Technically a different "Marriott".


Same culture though?


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## echino (Aug 25, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I think the benefit to free enrollment of mandatory resales and getting higher status across all your ownership holdings in the new Abound program more than outweighs a change in banking.



Where does it say free? I read that mandatory resales will be allowed into Abound, but nowhere it says it will be free.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 25, 2022)

echino said:


> Where does it say free? I read that mandatory resales will be allowed into Abound, but nowhere it says it will be free.


This is what it says;

Eligible VOIs:

Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an Authorized resale agent.
VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022, that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be able to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner Benefit Level
I would suspect if there was a fee, they would have called that out. But if the fee could apply based on the wording, it could also mean a fee applies to the first bullet point too.


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## TravelTime (Aug 25, 2022)

echino said:


> Where does it say free? I read that mandatory resales will be allowed into Abound, but nowhere it says it will be free.



The wording is why my husband and I are still skeptical that it might be free. However that seems to be the belief here on Tug.


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## EnglishmanAbroad (Aug 25, 2022)

DanCali said:


> It was certainly in my documentation in a more recent purchase than yours.
> 
> View attachment 63371
> 
> ...



Thanks for that. 

With regards note (j) I didn't hear many complaints about the 'revise the Network Rules' clause being put into effect in 2020 when banking options were expanded during Covid and indeed many (including myself) took advantage of it to make reservations with expiring options and then cancel those reservations to extend the options 'life'.


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## sail27bill (Aug 25, 2022)

I did not really take advantage of the Staroption banking benefits, but other family members used it incessantly to plan big trips.  I wonder if they reduced the benefit because you could always deposit it in II and get two years in which to use it.  Especially now that exchanges (non-point VOIs) are free. Or it could be that Marriott's IT department couldn't handle too many people using this function to extend two years out. Either way, now you really have to be on top of your vacations or you will lose your benefits.


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## Eric B (Aug 25, 2022)

IMHO it's better to borrow than bank anyway - in the ala carte costing for banking borrowing is less expensive because the only cost is the time value of the MFs you have to prepay.  With the bundling of the costs in the Club Dues, banking is more appealing to me even with the shorter deadlines because there isn't a differential cost and I can bank a small amount to avoid losing them when it wouldn't have been worth it for the fee.


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## remowidget (Aug 25, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> This is what it says;
> 
> Eligible VOIs:
> 
> ...


There is no "will be able" in the first one.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 25, 2022)

remowidget said:


> There is no "will be able" in the first one.


Not sure that really tells us anything different. If there were a fee or some other qualification requirements, I would expect a footnote or small print at a minimum.


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## CPNY (Aug 25, 2022)

I would still like to know if “enrolled resale” really means “retro resale”.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 25, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I would still like to know if “enrolled resale” really means “retro resale”.


Since "enrolled" isn't capitalized, I doubt it is defined anywhere. Mandatory weeks are certainly in VSN, they just don't qualify for certain special benefits (like Bonvoy conversion, resort credit, etc).


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## FTEddie (Aug 25, 2022)

It will be nice to have the costs of these programs finally revealed. I, like others, am unsure if my resale purchased VOIs that qualify in all ways regarding VSN participation and deed dates, will require an additional sum to participate in Abound.  I know what it says in the announcement, but there is just enough ambiguity to keep me wondering.
I do not think I will be required to pay more, but will be nice to have any question laid to rest.


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## CPNY (Aug 25, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Since "enrolled" isn't capitalized, I doubt it is defined anywhere. Mandatory weeks are certainly in VSN, they just don't qualify for certain special benefits (like Bonvoy conversion, resort credit, etc).



post 686 shows what’s considered VSE enrolled and what isn’t. I think we all discussed that it looks like the VSE enrolled was hit with a white out pen for that unauthorized mandatory resale so we don’t know if that was just a sales tactic to try to get them to retro the unit with another purchase. I think it’s safe to say we need more clarification on what Marriott considers “enrolled”









						CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
					

From the points chart, the island view has the same points as the ocean view. Not sure if they will change it later.  Based on the charts, island view might get over 7k points, which will be a great points generator compared with any other Marriott resorts.  Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk...




					tugbbs.com


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## wjarcher (Aug 25, 2022)

CPNY said:


> post 686 shows what’s considered VSE enrolled and what isn’t. I think we all discussed that it looks like the VSE enrolled was hit with a white out pen for that unauthorized mandatory resale so we don’t know if that was just a sales tactic to try to get them to retro the unit with another purchase. I think it’s safe to say we need more clarification on what Marriott considers “enrolled”
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It was sales tactic ("disgusting" if the owner ended up buying more to retro).  On a similar printout for my Vistana weeks, all of my mandatory resales are marked as Y which matches with what is announced in terms of the enrollment eligibility


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## FTEddie (Aug 25, 2022)

wjarcher said:


> It was sales tactic ("disgusting" if the owner ended up buying more to retro).  On a similar printout for my Vistana weeks, all of my mandatory resales are marked as Y which matches with what is announced in terms of the enrollment eligibility


One the reasons there is ambiguity.  What was said in the past.  Which salesman was embellishing?  Maybe neither as rules were perhaps changing day to day.  We don’t know what was happening internally at MVC about what VSN VOI’s would be “grandfathered” into Abound.  
Will be a relief to see the final “final” rules and fees.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 25, 2022)

CPNY said:


> post 686 shows what’s considered VSE enrolled and what isn’t. I think we all discussed that it looks like the VSE enrolled was hit with a white out pen for that unauthorized mandatory resale so we don’t know if that was just a sales tactic to try to get them to retro the unit with another purchase. I think it’s safe to say we need more clarification on what Marriott considers “enrolled”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have the same sheet from one of our past presentations. For our two mandatory resales, they both indicate VSE ENROLL=N and VSE ENROLL ELIGIBLE=Y. What to take from that is anyone's guess.


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## CPNY (Aug 25, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I have the same sheet from one of our past presentations. For our two mandatory resales, they both indicate VSE ENROLL=N and VSE ENROLL ELIGIBLE=Y. What to take from that is anyone's guess.


So it seems that mandatory resales aren’t actually enrolled. Then again, the 8/8 date makes me think mandatory resales will be included.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 25, 2022)

CPNY said:


> So it seems that mandatory resales aren’t actually enrolled. Then again, the 8/8 date makes me think mandatory resales will be included.


Perhaps.


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## CPNY (Aug 25, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Perhaps.


Perhaps I have too many timeshares for what I need lol.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 25, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Perhaps I have too many timeshares for what I need lol.


You probably do... But can you ever have too many?


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## CPNY (Aug 25, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> You probably do... But can you ever have too many?


Yes yes I can lol. I’ll probably be selling this one bedroom as soon as it transfers


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## robertk2012 (Aug 25, 2022)

I’ll take it 



CPNY said:


> Yes yes I can lol. I’ll probably be selling this one bedroom as soon as it transfers


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## TravelTime (Aug 25, 2022)

FTEddie said:


> It will be nice to have the costs of these programs finally revealed. I, like others, am unsure if my resale purchased VOIs that qualify in all ways regarding VSN participation and deed dates, will require an additional sum to participate in Abound.  I know what it says in the announcement, but there is just enough ambiguity to keep me wondering.
> I do not think I will be required to pay more, but will be nice to have any question laid to rest.



Me too. I am really wondering if there will be fees or point purchases attached to what they say is being “able to use Abound.”


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## Grandma2016 (Aug 25, 2022)

DanCali said:


> What also doesn't materially impact earnings or disrupt operations much is giving a handful of loyal owners an extra 2 hours in the unit on the first and/or last day of their vacation...
> 
> They may have too many Chairman to expand this benefit systemwide (presumably because of the enrolled pre-2010 Legacy week owners), but I doubt the number of 5-Star owners is as high percentagewise and they could have easily kept that benefit for Staroptions reservations within Vistana. It's almost like they don't want an MVC Chairman guest to overhear that request in the lobby and get all riled up as to why they can't get the same benefit too. Perhaps that makes more sense to them in the grand picture, but they will be alienating some people who spend a lot of money in the past... And that still doesn't excuse cutting the banking period to one year - VSN is a completely different exchange that Abound-only members can't access anyway. Staroptions are a different animal, used only at a handful or resorts, only at 8 months out and the banking rules and deadlines don't have to be the same.


Honestly the early check in and late checkout is something we will miss...it is so irritating as we have been loyal owners since it was first developed.


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## Ken555 (Aug 25, 2022)

Grandma2016 said:


> Honestly the early check in and late checkout is something we will miss...it is so irritating as we have been loyal owners since it was first developed.



I’ve learned that with all travel companies, loyalty is one way only.


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## TravelTime (Aug 25, 2022)

IMO, there are many problems with Marriott. They have a poorly trained “Wild West cowboy” salesforce that they can’t control or do not want to control. They need to start selling timeshare with honesty rather than lies.

Then they are rolling out an integrated program without any corporate marketing. They should be trying to communicate a message of how the gains of getting Abound access (more resorts, possible equivalent trades, 12 month reservation window, adding up all your ownerships for higher Abound status even if you do not convert into Club Points and a few others) offset the losses of reduced banking time.

They should also provide some rationale as to why they are making the specific changes they are making, like reduced banking time for SOs, even if it is a bit of corporate spin. I think other losses are so small as to not matter but they should explain this too.

They could also nicely market how to efficiently use Abound points to make great trades that are equivalent or better. They could develop charts and show what you can get in Abound club points vs VSN/SOs. As an Abound and Vistana owner, I know I can get great trades to stretch my Abound points. I even know you can get great trades with 2000-4000 points that are equivalent and sometimes even better than using SOs.

If they are, indeed, allowing developer purchases and resale mandatory purchases to enroll for free, they need to promote this heavily to current Vistana owners who qualify.


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## jabberwocky (Aug 25, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I have the same sheet from one of our past presentations. For our two mandatory resales, they both indicate VSE ENROLL=N and VSE ENROLL ELIGIBLE=Y. What to take from that is anyone's guess.


Our profile report from our July tour shows our mandatory resale WKORV/N week as Y for both VSE ENROLL and VSE ENROLL ELIGIBLE.

We did not retro that week (only our SDO plat).

The mandatory resale is included in our total annualized election value. For this reason I think they are enrolling the mandatory resale weeks without a fee.


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## Grandma2016 (Aug 25, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> Our profile report from our July tour shows our mandatory resale WKORV/N week as Y for both VSE ENROLL and VSE ENROLL ELIGIBLE.
> 
> We did not retro that week (only our SDO plat).
> 
> The mandatory resale is included in our total annualized election value. For this reason I think they are enrolling the mandatory resale weeks without a fee.


Thats what our report showed at our update earlier this month.


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## FTEddie (Aug 25, 2022)

The more I read and absorb from these announcements, the more comfortable I am with the belief that no additional fee will be needed for VSN VOIs to be eligible to participate in Abound.  Not 100% but pretty close.  Will keep a positive attitude.  It would not be the best marketing move by Marriott to get this far and then announce more money is needed.


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## jabberwocky (Aug 25, 2022)

FTEddie said:


> The more I read and absorb from these announcements, the more comfortable I am with the belief that no additional fee will be needed for VSN VOIs to be eligible to participate in Abound.  Not 100% but pretty close.  Will keep a positive attitude.  It would not be the best marketing move by Marriott to get this far and then announce more money is needed.


Just wait. At the next sales presentation they will come up with some sort of whopper on why you need to buy more Abound points.


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## alexadeparis (Aug 25, 2022)

DanCali said:


> I really can't pinpoint the reason for the 1-year banking other than aligning VSN and Abound deadlines. But it's neither here nor there... why does that even matter? They own II too and didn't make any alignments there...
> 
> With the Elite program, they probably took the view that VSN Elite was providing an incentive to sell product. If they are not selling Vistana product anymore, then VSN Elite is simply dismantled. Those who paid top dollar for some of those lost benefits will just have to live with it. Now they will upsell Abound points to get people to higher Abound Elite levels.
> 
> Per the Q&A:


The ELQC is something else. I believe it was like phantom SOs to boost you into an elite level if you were super close to being the next level without having to buy another unit. What they are saying is those would not become Abound points, just what your VOIs generate.


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## CPNY (Aug 25, 2022)

It’s unfortunate that elite owners lose up to 2 months to bank star options, lose late check out/early check in, and banking time. All of that with a much higher club fee. I’m not an elite owner so this doesn’t affect me.


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## DanCali (Aug 25, 2022)

alexadeparis said:


> The ELQC is something else. I believe it was like phantom SOs to boost you into an elite level if you were super close to being the next level without having to buy another unit. What they are saying is those would not become Abound points, just what your VOIs generate.




Read it again, and I believe you are correct! It's been a while since I saw that Phantom Staroptions term 

So, if they haven't canceled the VSN Elite program they can definitely keep the benefits going...


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## robertk2012 (Aug 25, 2022)

I think October 31 is fair.  The shortening of the time to use will be disappointing for many.  For me the loss of the early checkin and late checkout hurts.


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## DanCali (Aug 26, 2022)

robertk2012 said:


> For me the loss of the early checkin and late checkout hurts.



It is a pretty unique benefit. I didn't think much of it until buying into 5-Star but you can actually get another 1/2 day of vacation if you have the room until noon and a late afternoon flight. 

Maybe the plan if to offer that benefit at the "Emperor" level - those with 25K+ points


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## SVOTransplant (Aug 26, 2022)

For folks thinking VSN will always exist and Abound is just a layer… you’re probably right technically speaking. But practically, the insider is right.

Gresham’s law - Bad money drives out good money.

I own multiple weeks in Hawaii. I would never, ever, use these weeks in VSN again. Why? Because I can get two to three times the trading power of SOs by using Abound Club Points. The program will effectively remove the most valuable units from the network, dismantling it piece by piece until all that remains is a husk for legal reasons.

If tug is helping folks maximize their value, the recommendation to owners of any high value week becomes…. Use Abound to maximize what you can get for it. Beats SOs and then some. If there isn’t Abound inventory for those lower valued VSN properties, well, good thing there’s tons of other options in Abound.


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## Ken555 (Aug 26, 2022)

DanCali said:


> Maybe the plan if to offer that benefit at the "Emperor" level - those with 25K+ points



You’re thinking of the Unobtainium level.


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## rcv82 (Aug 26, 2022)

robertk2012 said:


> IFor me the loss of the early checkin and late checkout hurts.



To me, this was the best part of being 5 star. I nearly always used the late checkout, although it has been getting tougher to get it. And this was definitely one of the benefits touted by sales in up selling to 5 star. 

There is now almost no benefit to status in VSN, only when using Abound. I’m not happy at all about this. 

. 


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## DanCali (Aug 26, 2022)

SVOTransplant said:


> For folks thinking VSN will always exist and Abound is just a layer… you’re probably right technically speaking. But practically, the insider is right.
> 
> Gresham’s law - Bad money drives out good money.
> 
> ...



If I owned WKORV I would probably feel the same way. But that does not necessarily mean the demise of VSN...

First off, with VSN Staroptions election was seamless and automatic when needed. The choice to elect Abound points by September/October in the prior year is foreign to VSN owners and many will hesitate to commit that early (especially those who typically book October/November/December every year) or simply forget to do it.

Let's assume all Maui weeks are eligible to enroll. But, if I understand correctly, every resale mandatory unit going forward will be in VSN but not in Abound. Sure, those owners will be offered the enrollment opportunity for $30K+, but would more than 1 in 5 take it? You can argue that those owners will use or rent before those weeks go into VSN inventory, but the point is that the flow of inventory may start going back the other way over time.


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## Kujayhawks (Aug 27, 2022)

DanCali said:


> If I owned WKORV I would probably feel the same way. But that does not necessarily mean the demise of VSN...
> 
> First off, with VSN Staroptions election was seamless and automatic when needed. The choice to elect Abound points by September/October in the prior year is foreign to VSN owners and many will hesitate to commit that early (especially those who typically book October/November/December every year) or simply forget to do it.
> 
> Let's assume all Maui weeks are eligible to enroll. But, if I understand correctly, every resale mandatory unit going forward will be in VSN but not in Abound. Sure, those owners will be offered the enrollment opportunity for $30K+, but would more than 1 in 5 take it? You can argue that those owners will use or rent before those weeks go into VSN inventory, but the point is that the flow of inventory may start going back the other way over time.


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## Kujayhawks (Aug 27, 2022)

So let’s be honest.  If the Abound screw job is just too much to handle, there will be a class action lawsuit immediately against Marriot.  Thats a fact of life and a reality that (Marriott) knows all too well.


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## timsi (Aug 27, 2022)

DanCali said:


> If I owned WKORV I would probably feel the same way. But that does not necessarily mean the demise of VSN...
> 
> First off, with VSN Staroptions election was seamless and automatic when needed. The choice to elect Abound points by September/October in the prior year is foreign to VSN owners and many will hesitate to commit that early (especially those who typically book October/November/December every year) or simply forget to do it.
> 
> Let's assume all Maui weeks are eligible to enroll. But, if I understand correctly, every resale mandatory unit going forward will be in VSN but not in Abound. Sure, those owners will be offered the enrollment opportunity for $30K+, but would more than 1 in 5 take it? You can argue that those owners will use or rent before those weeks go into VSN inventory, but the point is that the flow of inventory may start going back the other way over time.


I do not think too many are sold resale every year and WKORV has ROFR so Marriott can keep most units that are sold post 8/9


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## DanCali (Aug 27, 2022)

timsi said:


> I do not think too many are sold resale every year and WKORV has ROFR so Marriott can keep most units that are sold post 8/9




But why would they keep those weeks? To prevent them from going only-VSN, which they own too? And at what cost? I don't really see the benefit to them in that regard.

They exercise ROFR because they buy points low and sell points high. That is their main criterion - it's all about profit margins. They could be more selective and buy at resorts with low MF/point for example, to lower the Trust points MFs - but they don't really do that. I have resale weeks that, based on enrolled point value, have MF/point of 0.30. Would be great for Trust points owners if MVC actually bought those to put in the Trust to lower MFs for all owners, but they don't do it because it's cheaper for them to buy weeks/points at other places. 

They will exercise ROFR wherever is cheapest... If WKORV resale prices were low enough on a cost/point basis they will do it, and otherwise, they won't. They may actually find that $15K for 6200 points is attractive. But they won't find $35K-$40K attractive for the OF weeks with ~8000 points. If anything, this will buoy WKORV/N IV/OV resale prices.


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## timsi (Aug 27, 2022)

My thoughts:


No more exclusive rights to book during the home reservation period. What was the legal foundation for this change?


VSN has become a second-class exchange network. Vistana sold VOIs based on the StarOptions chart and VSN was a pivotal point in the decision to purchase. Important features will be removed (like 2 years banking) and now Abound (an Exchange like VSN) will have 4 months of priority ahead of VSN.


The fragmentation of  inventory. Already too many buckets in Vistana (resort owners, flex owners, VSN, both resale and retail, units controlled by Vistana/Marriott). Placing Abound at the same level with the resort owners (12 months reservation period) will have a huge impact on VSN, especially for the weeks and resorts that are already hard to book. This will also likely lead to IT issues due to the increased complexity. There is also a (total) lack of transparency about how the different buckets are prioritized and the mechanisms in place to insure a fair distribution. Marriott has a potential conflict of interest because the rental revenue generated by the units it controls and because their energy will be focused on selling Abound and not the other buckets. The rules are intentionally vague (like in its own discretion, anticipated demand etc.), they do not offer real protection to the owners. Some of these are not new but the creation of Abound will take it to a whole new level, including giving other owners access during the home resort reservation period.
This comment above summarizes it well: “For folks thinking VSN will always exist and Abound is just a layer… you’re probably right technically speaking. But practically, the insider is right. Gresham’s law - Bad money drives out good money. I own multiple weeks in Hawaii. I would never, ever, use these weeks in VSN again. Why? Because I can get two to three times the trading power of SOs by using Abound Club Points. The program will effectively remove the most valuable units from the network, dismantling it piece by piece until all that remains is a husk for legal reasons. If tug is helping folks maximize their value, the recommendation to owners of any high value week becomes…. Use Abound to maximize what you can get for it. Beats SOs and then some. If there isn’t Abound inventory for those lower valued VSN properties, well, good thing there’s tons of other options in Abound.”


Banked StarOptions will expire after 12 months (18 months for Presidential; 24 months for Chairman). This is a huge loss for those who do not own a gazillion points. Currently it's 24 months for all. (Impacts all except 5-Star Elite / Chairman, and resale voluntary)
Banking StarOptions deadlines will be 31-61 days earlier for most Elite owners (Oct 31 for Chairman and Aug 31 for Executive or Presidential). Currently it's December 31 for 5-Star and Oct 1 for 3-Star and 4-Star. (Impacts mostly VSN Elite Owners)
No more early check-in and late checkout. Currently it's a benefit for 5-Star Elite (Impacts 5-Star Elite Owners)
No more concierge services
The mandatory VOIs have the potential to have a lower resale value due to the changes. Any owner who buys mandatory resale after 8/9 will only have access to a seriously weakened VSN.
What was the process to make sure the current Vistana owners’ rights would be protected with the creation of Abound? Who represented the Vistana owners to scrutinize the potential changes? The launching documents were signed by a Marriott executive who represented both sides (Vistana and Marriott).
Deterioration of services since Marriott took over (call center,  IT etc),
The increase in MF well above the trendline even after taking into account inflation (personal experience, not sure if true for all the Vistana resorts)


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## JIMinNC (Aug 27, 2022)

DanCali said:


> But why would they keep those weeks? To prevent them from going only-VSN, which they own too? And at what cost? I don't really see the benefit to them in that regard.
> 
> They exercise ROFR because they buy points low and sell points high. That is their main criterion - it's all about profit margins. They could be more selective and buy at resorts with low MF/point for example, to lower the Trust points MFs - but they don't really do that. I have resale weeks that, based on enrolled point value, have MF/point of 0.30. Would be great for Trust points owners if MVC actually bought those to put in the Trust to lower MFs for all owners, but they don't do it because it's cheaper for them to buy weeks/points at other places.
> 
> They will exercise ROFR wherever is cheapest... If WKORV resale prices were low enough on a cost/point basis they will do it, and otherwise, they won't. They may actually find that $15K for 6200 points is attractive. But they won't find $35K-$40K attractive for the OF weeks with ~8000 points. If anything, this will buoy WKORV/N IV/OV resale prices.


If you look at www.ROFR.net you will see that MVC regularly exercises ROFR on Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili Villas at prices north of $30k. I would expect similar at WKORV.


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## TravelTime (Aug 27, 2022)

DanCali said:


> But why would they keep those weeks? To prevent them from going only-VSN, which they own too? And at what cost? I don't really see the benefit to them in that regard.
> 
> They exercise ROFR because they buy points low and sell points high. That is their main criterion - it's all about profit margins. They could be more selective and buy at resorts with low MF/point for example, to lower the Trust points MFs - but they don't really do that. I have resale weeks that, based on enrolled point value, have MF/point of 0.30. Would be great for Trust points owners if MVC actually bought those to put in the Trust to lower MFs for all owners, but they don't do it because it's cheaper for them to buy weeks/points at other places.
> 
> They will exercise ROFR wherever is cheapest... If WKORV resale prices were low enough on a cost/point basis they will do it, and otherwise, they won't. They may actually find that $15K for 6200 points is attractive. But they won't find $35K-$40K attractive for the OF weeks with ~8000 points. If anything, this will buoy WKORV/N IV/OV resale prices.



Why wouldn’t it be attractive to buy back an OF week for $35-$40K if they only need to rent out 7 or so weeks total at 8000 points per week to break even on the purchase?

Also Marriott owners tend to like to book the best views so OF gets booked the fastest. So I would think Marriott would prefer to buy back the best inventory that they can charge the most for in points. This is just a guess, of course. @JIMinNC ’s evidence seems to support this theory.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 27, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Why wouldn’t it be attractive to buy back an OF week for $35-$40K if they only need to rent out 7 or so weeks total at 8000 points per week to break even on the purchase?
> 
> Also Marriott owners tend to like to book the best views so OF gets booked the fastest. So I would think Marriott would prefer to buy back the best inventory that they can charge the most for in points. This is just a guess, of course. @JIMinNC ’s evidence seems to support this theory.



Most likely the key metric is not what they can rent the unit for. As far as we know, most or all ROFR weeks go into the Trust to become a source of new points sales, so they have a target price that gives them the inventory cost they are looking for. These ROFR weeks have a much lower cost of acquisition than building a new resort, so that's why they do it. They also want to get inventory into the Trust that owners want to book, so that's probably a consideration also, but I think acquisition cost per point is the main driver. For example, a 2BR OF at Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili adds 7475 ClubPoints to the Trust. If they ROFR that at $31,000, their cost/point is $4.15. They can then resell those at a list price of $16+ ( a typical discounted sales offer of $14-$15/pt).


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## TravelTime (Aug 27, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Most likely the key metric is not what they can rent the unit for. As far as we know, most or all ROFR weeks go into the Trust to become a source of new points sales, so they have a target price that gives them the inventory cost they are looking for. These ROFR weeks have a much lower cost of acquisition than building a new resort, so that's why they do it. They also want to get inventory into the Trust that owners want to book, so that's probably a consideration also, but I think acquisition cost per point is the main driver. For example, a 2BR OF at Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili adds 7475 ClubPoints to the Trust. If they ROFR that at $31,000, their cost/point is $4.15. They can then resell those at a list price of $16+ ( a typical discounted sales offer of $14-$15/pt).



I agree with what you are saying. It seems like a win-win for Marriott to have Maui OF in the trust. First so they can resell the points at a much higher price point like you said. Then second they have the most desirable inventory in the trust forever that they can rent at the highest cost per point. I am always looking to spend my points on 2BR OF and there is never enough inventory. It books up within minutes of the booking window opening. I am not their business strategist but I would probably prefer to re-purchase the best inventory to rent points over the long term than to have a one-time resell opportunity. I get they keep re-selling points but just looking at that one particular week, it is a one time buy back/re-sale vs renting the underlying points in infinity. Correct me if I am wrong on any of this thinking.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 27, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Most likely the key metric is not what they can rent the unit for. As far as we know, most or all ROFR weeks go into the Trust to become a source of new points sales, so they have a target price that gives them the inventory cost they are looking for. These ROFR weeks have a much lower cost of acquisition than building a new resort, so that's why they do it. They also want to get inventory into the Trust that owners want to book, so that's probably a consideration also, but I think acquisition cost per point is the main driver. For example, a 2BR OF at Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili adds 7475 ClubPoints to the Trust. If they ROFR that at $31,000, their cost/point is $4.15. They can then resell those at a list price of $16+ ( a typical discounted sales offer of $14-$15/pt).


I think in the past they have indicated that they want to keep the cost of this reacquisition of inventory below 30%. In some cases they could get it close to 0% plus their fixed costs (recording, legal). I am not sure the actual cost to MF is all that important or even the resort the inventory is coming from. They can already sell the 90+ resorts and it doesn't matter if the points come from Hawaii or Orlando. Lost of people still want to go to Orlando too. As for MF/point, given the amount of points now in the trust, I doubt the volume of inventory they bring in via ROFR, deedback or foreclosure is really going to move the needle on the MF per trust point. It all comes down to buy low sell high.


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## DanCali (Aug 27, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Why wouldn’t it be attractive to buy back an OF week for $35-$40K if they only need to rent out 7 or so weeks total at 8000 points per week to break even on the purchase?



They are not in the rental business. They are in the business of selling points.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 27, 2022)

DanCali said:


> They are not in the rental business. They are in the business of selling points.


They also don't get anything if people book higher end weeks via points. I see a lot of Marriott wants these weeks or those weeks for the trust so they can offer them out for lots of points to Abound members. When it comes to points reservations, it really doesn't matter if it is a high end week or a low week. They make no more or no less on it. It is all about buy low and sell high.


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## DanCali (Aug 27, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> If you look at www.ROFR.net you will see that MVC regularly exercises ROFR on Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili Villas at prices north of $30k. I would expect similar at WKORV.



I know people here like ROFR.net. But it's also subject to abuse where sellers can just enter bogus numbers to try to get a higher price for their weeks. I'd take it with a grain of salt...



JIMinNC said:


> They also want to get inventory into the Trust that owners want to book, so that's probably a consideration also, but I think acquisition cost per point is the main driver. For example, a 2BR OF at Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili adds 7475 ClubPoints to the Trust. If they ROFR that at $31,000, their cost/point is $4.15. They can then resell those at a list price of $16+ ( a typical discounted sales offer of $14-$15/pt).



This is kind of what I was alluding to. My point was that they can add:

6200 points for $15K (OV/IV prices at WKORV/N) - this is $2.40/point
~8000 points for $35-$40K (OF weeks) - this is about $4.50/point

So they would purchase the IV/OV weeks, not OF. They sell the points at the same retail price so margins would be higher...


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## TravelTime (Aug 27, 2022)

DanCali said:


> They are not in the rental business. They are in the business of selling points.



Then why are there MFs and points charts? Does MVC make any money off MFs?

Wouldn’t this be like saying Apple is in the business of selling iPhones and not service income?


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## Jayco29D (Aug 27, 2022)

pchung6 said:


> I don’t want anything from Marriott even it’s free. It worth zero to me, or negative value. Marriott please take everything back, just don’t let Marriott people book Vistana. I’m fine with everything Vistana provided before.



I think the fear of Marriott people booking into Vistana inventory is overblown. In fact, Marriott people are more worried about Vistana people taking Marriott’s much better inventory from them. Also Abound only gets inventory from Vistana if a Vistana owner elects points. That means the Vistana owner values getting Abound points more than using their home weeks or SOs. It is a free market so let Vistana owners elect Abound points if they want. Anyone who wants what they already have in Vistana will still have it. Vistana owners who want Vistana resorts only will still play by themselves in the Vistana pool.


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## Jayco29D (Aug 27, 2022)

DanCali said:


> I know people here like ROFR.net. But it's also subject to abuse where sellers can just enter bogus numbers to try to get a higher price for their weeks. I'd take it with a grain of salt...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



WKOVRN 2BR OF was about $14,000 for EOY (including closing costs) when I bought it not all that long ago and gets 8300+ points EOY. Works out to about $1.70 pp.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 27, 2022)

DanCali said:


> I know people here like ROFR.net. But it's also subject to abuse where sellers can just enter bogus numbers to try to get a higher price for their weeks. I'd take it with a grain of salt...


While you are correct it could be abused, when you look at the entries for Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili that I quoted, quite a few of the entries are from well known TUGgers, so I trust those entries for sure.



DanCali said:


> This is kind of what I was alluding to. My point was that they can add:
> 
> 6200 points for $15K (OV/IV prices at WKORV/N) - this is $2.40/point
> ~8000 points for $35-$40K (OF weeks) - this is about $4.50/point
> ...



The reality is they might buy both of those. I know specifically of multiple people who have lost MOC units to ROFR north of $31k. The break point seems to be somewhere around $35k for MOC-L/N


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## pchung6 (Aug 27, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> I think the fear of Marriott people booking into Vistana inventory is overblown. In fact, Marriott people are more worried about Vistana people taking Marriott’s much better inventory from them.


Why would Vistana people take Marriott inventory if it is exchange? Also most Marriott resorts are inferior to Westin or Sheraton resorts. Vistana people are more worried Marriott will play dirty, most likely Marriott will…


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## Jayco29D (Aug 27, 2022)

pchung6 said:


> Why would Vistana people take Marriott inventory if it is exchange? Also most Marriott resorts are inferior to Westin or Sheraton resorts. Vistana people are more worried Marriott will play dirty, most likely Marriott will…



I do not think you understand the new program and how it works. I also think you are an extreme pessimist. Plus only Vistana owners who see value in Abound will elect Abound points. You are essentially saying that Vistana owners should not have free choice to elect Abound points if they see value in Abound. If Abound is as bad as you say, then no Vistana owners will elect Abound points.


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## Ken555 (Aug 27, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> I do not think you understand the new program and how it works. I also think you are an extreme pessimist. Plus only Vistana owners who see value in Abound will elect Abound points. You are essentially saying that Vistana owners should not have free choice to elect Abound points if they see value in Abound. If Abound is as bad as you say, then no Vistana owners will elect Abound points.



I wouldn’t be surprised if for the first few years many Vistana owners exchange for Abound to test the new system, especially those who don’t know or participate here (i.e the majority of owners).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## timsi (Aug 27, 2022)

DanCali said:


> They are not in the rental business. They are in the business of selling points.


140 million dollars in rental revenue last quarter is not exactly pocket change


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## pchung6 (Aug 27, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> I do not think you understand the new program and how it works. I also think you are an extreme pessimist. Plus only Vistana owners who see value in Abound will elect Abound points. You are essentially saying that Vistana owners should not have free choice to elect Abound points if they see value in Abound. If Abound is as bad as you say, then no Vistana owners will elect Abound points.


Sorry, I just can’t figure out what to do with these Abound points. So far I see more value with my Staroptions points than Abound points. I might change my mind later, as I’m still figuring out. I still don’t see any Marriott resorts I like to go with these points yet. If I like Vistana/SPG/Starwood more than Marriott has to be called pessimist, just let it be. But I do own Marriott timeshare.


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## Racing2007 (Aug 27, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> I do not think you understand the new program and how it works. I also think you are an extreme pessimist. Plus only Vistana owners who see value in Abound will elect Abound points. You are essentially saying that Vistana owners should not have free choice to elect Abound points if they see value in Abound. If Abound is as bad as you say, then no Vistana owners will elect Abound points.


That could be true, but as the years go by and if owners in their own resort decide to sell their deeded property, is it possible that Marriott can buy those ownerships and put them in the overall trust, thus decreasing individual resort ownership? Then they could offer more Abound ownerships and dilute individual resort ownership.  It will take a long time to get there, but it could happen. They may eventually try to offer owners incentives to sell their property specific individual deeded properties.  Am I missing something?


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## Jayco29D (Aug 27, 2022)

Racing2007 said:


> That could be true, but as the years go by and if owners in their own resort decide to sell their deeded property, is it possible that Marriott can buy those ownerships and put them in the overall trust, thus decreasing individual resort ownership? Then they could offer more Abound ownerships and dilute individual resort ownership.  It will take a long time to get there, but it could happen. They may eventually try to offer owners incentives to sell their property specific individual deeded properties.  Am I missing something?



They have not done this in huge numbers with the Marriott weeks post-2010. So doubt they will do it with Vistana weeks post-2022.


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## DanCali (Aug 27, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> WKOVRN 2BR OF was about $14,000 for EOY (including closing costs) when I bought it not all that long ago and gets 8300+ points EOY. Works out to about $1.70 pp.




I think you need to double that number because it's 8300 EOY (so more like 4150 per year).


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## DanCali (Aug 27, 2022)

timsi said:


> 140 million dollars in rental revenue last quarter is not exactly pocket change



Their annual report clearly states: "Our principal source of revenue is the sale of vacation ownership interests."

Yes, $140M is substantial, but it's all relative and it also matters what "rental" is exactly. They need to rent inventory they hold for sale, but I don't think they buy inventory with the intent to rent as was implied. Rental is not their primary source of income... they make more revenue from "contract sales" and "management fees and other services" (golf/spa etc). Also, if you read where that rental income is coming from, it's both from inventory they hold for sale as well as from "inventory we control because alternative usage options elected by owners" (I assume both elected Bonvoy points and "skim"). Approximately 7% of weeks converted to DC points go to them as skim. I assume they make good use of it...


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## jabberwocky (Aug 27, 2022)

DanCali said:


> Their annual report clearly states: "Our principal source of revenue is the sale of vacation ownership interests."
> 
> Yes, $140M is substantial, but it's all relative and it also matters what "rental" is exactly. They need to rent inventory they hold for sale, but I don't think they buy inventory with the intent to rent as was implied. Rental is not their primary source of income... they make more revenue from "contract sales" and "management fees and other services" (golf/spa etc). Also, if you read where that rental income is coming from, it's both from inventory they hold for sale as well as from "inventory we control because alternative usage options elected by owners" (I assume both elected Bonvoy points and "skim"). Approximately 7% of weeks converted to DC points go to them as skim. I assume they make good use of it...


The rental top line might be high, but its the amount that falls to the bottom line that counts. Margins on rentals are only around 11-12% for VAC after you consider expenses (such as MF).

If you contrast this with the ownership sales which have margins around 25% (after commissions and marketing costs) and are a magnitude larger, it’s clear that the make their cash from moving product, not renting it out and having it sit on their books.


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## Helios (Aug 27, 2022)

Correction, I heard min $40K purchase.


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## Grandma2016 (Aug 27, 2022)

pchung6 said:


> Sorry, I just can’t figure out what to do with these Abound points. So far I see more value with my Staroptions points than Abound points. I might change my mind later, as I’m still figuring out. I still don’t see any Marriott resorts I like to go with these points yet. If I like Vistana/SPG/Starwood more than Marriott has to be called pessimist, just let it be. But I do own Marriott timeshare.


I agree.  Nothing in Marriott looks appealing to me.  My vistana ownership gives me 57k mvc points which is quite a few.  I would only do this to try for OF consecutive weeks in Maui .


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## dioxide45 (Aug 27, 2022)

DanCali said:


> Also, if you read where that rental income is coming from, it's both from inventory they hold for sale as well as from "inventory we control because alternative usage options elected by owners" (I assume both elected Bonvoy points and "skim"). Approximately 7% of weeks converted to DC points go to them as skim.


Don't forget also that those "alternative usage options" are from Explorer Collection offerings. Something like 20% of the point utilization is going through Explorer. I doubt they make much on the skim. Skim is likely more to hedge against breakage. Sure they might have a night here or there that is broken that they can rent out, but many of their destinations aren't really in markets that are good for one or two night rentals. I suspect most skim breakage is just lost.


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## timsi (Aug 27, 2022)

I would say that 11-12% margin sounds about right for this kind of business, but they had rental revenues of 140 millions last quarter with only 87 millions of associated costs. That’s pretty good and I assume it is for the reasons mentioned here:  the skim (oh, so maybe they are not so generous with the “free” transaction fees) and they can rent the units that are not booked. By the way, for the latter, is there a formula to compensate the resorts since we pay the maintenance fees for those units? I understand that they can rent them, according to the rules, but nowhere says we shouldn't get anything.



I believe that 140 millions in revenue last quarter is significant (half a million nights rented if not more depending on the average price) especially since this amount does not include the sales tours that they record as marketing. It is also significant because they solicit those tourists to buy from them and it is new blood in the system since the existing owners can only buy so much. I assume their business would be stale eventually if they only met existing owners all day long.


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## Jayco29D (Aug 27, 2022)

DanCali said:


> I think you need to double that number because it's 8300 EOY (so more like 4150 per year).



Yes you are right.


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## Jayco29D (Aug 27, 2022)

DanCali said:


> I know people here like ROFR.net. But it's also subject to abuse where sellers can just enter bogus numbers to try to get a higher price for their weeks. I'd take it with a grain of salt...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



WKOVRN OF weeks were going for about $28,000 not that long ago, pre-Covid. I even heard of some people getting them for less. Have they gone up in price? For many people, their cost per point for OF will be closer to $3.40 pp based on recent prices.

So from an upfront cost, the ratio for OV/IV seems more efficient. But from a MF perspective, the OF week is more efficient. Is that correct?

I have heard there is often an inverse relationship with upfront costs vs MFs.


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## DanCali (Aug 27, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> OF weeks were going for about $28,000 not that long ago. I even heard of some people getting them for less. Have they gone up in price?
> 
> So from an upfront cost, the ratio for OV/IV seems more efficient. But from a MF perspective, the OF week is more efficient. Is that correct?
> 
> I have heard there is often an inverse relationship with upfront costs vs MFs.



I have not been following prices on Maui but I have at several others. What I observed is a serious decline in prices in 2020 and the first half of 2021 and then a quick rebound later to prices higher than they were pre-covid. I wouldn't be surprised if Hawaii had a similar pattern with some lag due to covid restrictions that lasted longer. I do know that OF weeks on Maui were going for $35K+ earlier this year.

That differential in upfront cost of 100%+ between OF and OV/IV is hard to justify based on Staroptions or Abound points or rental values. It's simply supply and demand - people are willing to pay for the OF view and there simply aren't that many units in that category at WKORV to satisfy that demand.

Generally, if MFs go up, resale values go down. But what also matters are rental prices. As long as MFs are significantly lower than rental prices (even if both are high), resale prices should reflect that differential. I use a multiple to figure out if something is relatively "cheap" or "expensive". Say that something has a rental value of $2K over MFs. I might be willing to pay 5-6x that difference (so $10K-$12K).


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## timsi (Aug 27, 2022)

Speaking of their growing rental business, I spoke with a couple that came back from Lagunamar and they were getting daily cleaning. They rented through Marriott.com. 
What is the line in the resort budget which specifies that Vistana/Marriott reimburse the ownership association for the daily housekeeping costs of the non-owners that book through online channels?


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## dioxide45 (Aug 27, 2022)

timsi said:


> Speaking of their growing rental business, I spoke with a couple that came back from Lagunamar and they were getting daily cleaning. They rented through Marriott.com.
> What is the line in the resort budget which specifies that Vistana/Marriott reimburse the ownership association for the daily housekeeping costs of the non-owners that book through online channels?


I beleive it is a credit to the housekeeping fee line item. You don't see it listed separately, it just reduces the housekeeping line item.


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## timsi (Aug 28, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I beleive it is a credit to the housekeeping fee line item. You don't see it listed separately, it just reduces the housekeeping line item.


I do not think this is how it is supposed to work. What is your source?

As far as I can tell it does not exist and I looked at the budget of  more than one resort.  It should be recorded as a revenue for the resort. Another item that does not seem to exist (or I cannot find)  is reimbursement for the units that we own and Vistana rents through Marriott.com when they are not booked by owners or deposited.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 28, 2022)

timsi said:


> I do not think this is how it is supposed to work. What is your source?
> 
> As far as I can tell it does not exist and I looked at the budget of  more than one resort.  It should be recorded as a revenue for the resort. Another item that does not seem to exist (or I cannot find)  is reimbursement for the units Vistana rents through Marriott.com but we pay maintenance fees for.


My source is from attending a couple of annual BOD budget meetings for Grande Vista.

As for your last item, unreserve units, usually at 75 days out, end up coming under control of Vistana. Just how it is, they wrote the rules into the CC&R. An owner may have paid a MF on that line item, or it may be a week that is delinquent, but they belong to Vistana. No reimbursement necessary.


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## timsi (Aug 28, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> My source is from attending a couple of annual BOD budget meetings for Grande Vista.
> 
> As for your last item, unreserve units, usually at 75 days out, end up coming under control of Vistana. Just how it is, they wrote the rules into the CC&R. An owner may have paid a MF on that line item, or it may be a week that is delinquent, but they belong to Vistana. No reimbursement necessary.



I do not know about  Marriott  but  Vistana has been  pretty detailed with any amount received from the developer and  recorded as revenue but this is not there. Do not think this is a trivial matter, daily cleaning for a lot of renters could mean a very significant portion  of the housekeeping budget.

Concerning "no reimbursement necessary", just because it is not mentioned, it does not mean that it should not be a compensation. The way I look at it, the CC&R does not mention that there should not be a compensation, it just allows them to grab them. I think a  smart lawyer can have a field day with this.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 28, 2022)

timsi said:


> I do not know about  Marriott  but  Vistana has been  pretty detailed with any amount received from the developer and  recorded as revenue but this is not there. Do not think this is a trivial matter, daily cleaning for a lot of renters could mean a very significant portion  of the housekeeping budget.
> 
> Concerning "no reimbursement necessary", just because it is not mentioned, it does not mean that it should not be a compensation. The way I look at it, the CC&R does not mention that there should not be a compensation, it just allows them to grab them. I think a  smart lawyer can have a field day with this.


I plan to attend the Sheraton Vistana Villages annual meeting this year. I will see if I can ask and get an answer on how this will be handled for the resort and how they manage it for cash reservations.


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## jabberwocky (Aug 28, 2022)

timsi said:


> I do not know about  Marriott  but  Vistana has been  pretty detailed with any amount received from the developer and  recorded as revenue but this is not there. Do not think this is a trivial matter, daily cleaning for a lot of renters could mean a very significant portion  of the housekeeping budget.


They should probably set it up as a contra account to the housekeeping line (essentially reducing HK) as it is an expense offset.

Recording it as revenue distorts the financials, because it’s not really coming from the customers and has no margin - it’s just a reimbursement of expenses for something the HOA has not received MF from.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 28, 2022)

I also don't think there is a line item that shows revenue from the VSN housekeeping fees that are charged to StarOptions guests when they make reservations beyond the number of contracts they own.


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## pchung6 (Aug 28, 2022)

Here is the latest price for Maui timeshare that I just picked up the sheet today.


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## Ken555 (Aug 28, 2022)

pchung6 said:


> Here is the latest price for Maui timeshare that I just picked up the sheet today.



I’m here and overheard others mention ocean front resale was priced at $70k, so can only assume that’s what they were offered by the sales team at the resort. Of course, I said “too expensive!” 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Jayco29D (Aug 28, 2022)

DanCali said:


> I have not been following prices on Maui but I have at several others. What I observed is a serious decline in prices in 2020 and the first half of 2021 and then a quick rebound later to prices higher than they were pre-covid. I wouldn't be surprised if Hawaii had a similar pattern with some lag due to covid restrictions that lasted longer. I do know that OF weeks on Maui were going for $35K+ earlier this year.
> 
> That differential in upfront cost of 100%+ between OF and OV/IV is hard to justify based on Staroptions or Abound points or rental values. It's simply supply and demand - people are willing to pay for the OF view and there simply aren't that many units in that category at WKORV to satisfy that demand.
> 
> Generally, if MFs go up, resale values go down. But what also matters are rental prices. As long as MFs are significantly lower than rental prices (even if both are high), resale prices should reflect that differential. I use a multiple to figure out if something is relatively "cheap" or "expensive". Say that something has a rental value of $2K over MFs. I might be willing to pay 5-6x that difference (so $10K-$12K).



I understand your point. From what I have heard, in general, people buy Maui OF because they want to use it and they value the view. 

On Redweek, North OF asking price is ranging from $29K to $32K with some outliers at $35K, $42K and $45K. There is also an OV outlier at $35K. The pricing is irrational.


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## Jayco29D (Aug 28, 2022)

pchung6 said:


> Here is the latest price for Maui timeshare that I just picked up the sheet today.



We are talking about Westin, not Hyatt or Marriott. Usually I look at Redweek to see asking prices. For WKOVRN OF, the asking prices start at $29,000 right now.


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## TravelTime (Aug 28, 2022)

DanCali said:


> Their annual report clearly states: "Our principal source of revenue is the sale of vacation ownership interests."
> 
> Yes, $140M is substantial, but it's all relative and it also matters what "rental" is exactly. They need to rent inventory they hold for sale, but I don't think they buy inventory with the intent to rent as was implied. Rental is not their primary source of income... they make more revenue from "contract sales" and "management fees and other services" (golf/spa etc). Also, if you read where that rental income is coming from, it's both from inventory they hold for sale as well as from "inventory we control because alternative usage options elected by owners" (I assume both elected Bonvoy points and "skim"). Approximately 7% of weeks converted to DC points go to them as skim. I assume they make good use of it...



Half a billion dollars+ is nothing to sneeze at.

No wonder MFs keep going up. Poor Marriott does not make enough rental income to make it worth doing as a business.


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## DanCali (Aug 28, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> On Redweek, North OF asking price is ranging from $29K to $32K with some outliers at $35K, $42K and $45K. There is also an OV outlier at $35K. The pricing is irrational.



WKORV OF view is probably more desired (and there are fewer OF units) than the WKORVN OF view.

Of course if you are just buying for the Abound points (whether you are MVC or an owner who wants to retro) then pick the cheaper OF view.


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## pchung6 (Aug 28, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> I’m here and overheard others mention ocean front resale was priced at $70k, so can only assume that’s what they were offered by the sales team at the resort. Of course, I said “too expensive!”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That’s really too high. With economic slowdown, we should be able to see price moves down soon.


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## TravelTime (Aug 28, 2022)

DanCali said:


> WKORV OF view is probably more desired (and there are fewer OF units) than the WKORVN OF view.
> 
> Of course if you are just buying for the Abound points (whether you are MVC or an owner who wants to retro) then pick the cheaper OF view.



For Abound points, both S and N are valued at the same rate. A bit surprising to me. 

There are more resales available in S. Another surprising thing. I see the range of starting prices to be a little higher but not dramatically different for S vs N. It is really just a preference for the buyer.

Overall, other that the angled view for OF in S, N is a better one to purchase. There are more OF units and there are no parking lot views like in S. When I purchased, I was thinking of S, but Syed said to buy N.


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## CPNY (Aug 28, 2022)

timsi said:


> My thoughts:
> 
> 
> No more exclusive rights to book during the home reservation period. What was the legal foundation for this change?
> ...


When you read all of the things that Marriott took away from vistana elite owners to make the program more in line with Marriott DC club, you can see why the VSN was a better program with better perks for elite owners.


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## TravelTime (Aug 28, 2022)

CPNY said:


> When you read all of the things that Marriott took away from vistana elite owners to make the program more in line with Marriott DC club, you can see why the VSN was a better program with better perks for elite owners.



As a Vistana owner, I am not sure what they took away that was truly valuable other than reducing banking for the lower level members in the new benefits level. But you also need to Vistana owners who value Abound will gain with Abound.


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## CPNY (Aug 28, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> I wouldn’t be surprised if for the first few years many Vistana owners exchange for Abound to test the new system, especially those who don’t know or participate here (i.e the majority of owners).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I have a cousin who doesn’t know much of how this works say to me they will take their gold plus HRA one bedroom and try to get Marriott surf club when the new program launches. I laughed, then told her even when HRA is included don’t think you’ll be getting enough points for MSU with your gold plus HRA in the new program. You’ll be lucky to get a studio for 4 nights. If you blindly elect for points you’ll be upset when you’re stuck with a studio in orlando. Then i told her to go through interval she’ll be better off.   The point here is that most owners who don’t own much in terms of “value” will elect for club points only to be left very disappointed when they can’t book much. There will be plenty of “one and done” owners.

There are also so many owners on the vistana side who are naive to interval and how that exchange system works. They checked for an exchange once 10 years ago and think Interval is crap and never bothered with it again.


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## CPNY (Aug 28, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> As a Vistana owner, I am not sure what they took away that was truly valuable other than reducing banking for the lower level members in the new benefits level. But you also need to Vistana owners who value Abound will gain with Abound.


They took a lot away from the elite vistana owners. It’s all listed in the post I quoted.

Non elite Vistana owners who will obtain new levels in abound will gain, I’m hoping I’m one of them. But it clear that vistana elite owners had a few really nice perks stripped away from them. Especially if those elite owners don’t exchange in abound and want to use their ownerships at their home resort only or within the VSN.


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## CPNY (Aug 28, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> I think the fear of Marriott people booking into Vistana inventory is overblown. In fact, Marriott people are more worried about Vistana people taking Marriott’s much better inventory from them. Also Abound only gets inventory from Vistana if a Vistana owner elects points. That means the Vistana owner values getting Abound points more than using their home weeks or SOs. It is a free market so let Vistana owners elect Abound points if they want. Anyone who wants what they already have in Vistana will still have it. Vistana owners who want Vistana resorts only will still play by themselves in the Vistana pool.


I don’t think it’s overblown. I think it’s a valid concern especially when you look at the fine print where it says that Marriott controls the inventory and will fund the abound program with inventory at its discretion to “anticipate” demand. unsold Vistana inventory that marriott owns currently goes into the VSN. Going forward all of that inventory can go into abound which means it is no longer available into the VSN. Unless I am way off on that.


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## TravelTime (Aug 28, 2022)

CPNY said:


> They took a lot away from the elite vistana owners. It’s all listed in the post I quoted.
> 
> Non elite Vistana owners who will obtain new levels in abound will gain, I’m hoping I’m one of them. But it clear that vistana elite owners had a few really nice perks stripped away from them. Especially if those elite owners don’t exchange in abound and want to use their ownerships at their home resort only or within the VSN.



I missed your post of what they took away. I thought it was banking and some elite benefits that I do not think I would have cared about even if I was elite. MVC owners have been saying for years that Marriott needs to enhance Chairman’s club level so maybe they will add more benefits to it. The rumors have always been that they will be enhancing it.

Some of the things @timsi listed either did not happen and are unlikely to happen unless Vistana owners like Abound better. Some other things he listed are Vistana issues and might have happened even if Marriott had not purchased Vistana.

If Vistana owners prefer Abound and elect points, then you need to blame Vistana owners if VSN deteriorates. If Marriott offers more through Abound, then that is the only reason Vistana owners would elect Abound points and VSN would get would get worse.

I stopped using SOs because I lost SOs and it was hard to book what I wanted at 8 months. I would have to keep checking and I might get something or I might not. Usually if I found something with at least 7 days at 8 months, the dates could be wrong. Forget trying to get more than 7 days at 8 months with SOs. So I decided to only use my home resort or rent it out when I could not use it. Then I do not lose. But the bad part is I purchased partly for SOs and and it turned out to be a disappointment. I felt like it was bait and switch by Vistana.

My understanding is the Vistana owners who want to use their home resort will still get priority. I do not hear Marriott owners complaining they can‘t get their home resort. This was a few 12 years ago and from what Marriott weeks owners seem to say is their fear did not come true.

Neither program is perfect but Vistana owners will gravitate to whichever program they like better. That is a huge choice that MVC owners do not have. There were no real benefits added for MVC.


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## timsi (Aug 28, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I don’t think it’s overblown. I think it’s a valid concern especially when you look at the fine print where it says that Marriott controls the inventory and will fun the abound program with inventory at its discretion to “anticipate” demand. unsold Vistana inventory that marriott owns currently goes into the VSN. Going forward all of that inventory can go into abound which means it is no longer available into the VSN. Unless I am way off on that.


Not only it is not overblown, there are tangible things that have been taken away.

 In average, one in 30 Marriott owners is delinquent. Many owners have 1 week if not half (isn't the average 1 week?)  and many pay 12 or 15 % interest for their little VOI. The last thing some owners need is to be screwed with the ownership more than they already are.   I do not think that those who will benefit from it can speak for those that are at a loss since they are not the ones that will make them whole.


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## cubigbird (Aug 28, 2022)

For us at 5* elite the change of the banking deadline of Dec 31 to Oct 31 is a big deal.  We have fixed holiday weeks that we use, and bring friends and family with.  If someone cancels we have been able to bank the unused portion, and that’s been incredibly valuable.  Now we won’t be able to do that.  If a friend or family cancels on us past Oct 31, we now lose.  Doing the math, I’m pay a net more for less as those VSN fees that are supposedly going away we generally haven’t had to pay them.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 28, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> For us at 5* elite the change of the banking deadline of Dec 31 to Oct 31 is a big deal.  We have fixed holiday weeks that we use, and bring friends and family with.  If someone cancels we have been able to bank the unused portion, d asp it’s been incredibly valuable.  Now we won’t be able to do that.  If a friend or family cancels on us past Oct 31, we now lose.


But you would have had to cancel outside of 60 days anyway in order to get bankable points back, no? Can you bank restricted StarOptions?


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## JIMinNC (Aug 28, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I don’t think it’s overblown. I think it’s a valid concern especially when you look at the fine print where it says that Marriott controls the inventory and will fun the abound program with inventory at its discretion to “anticipate” demand. unsold Vistana inventory that



I think what MVC owners are saying though, is that same language has been in the fine print for the last 12 years. MVC had/has the same incentives to play loose with inventory from the legacy MVC weeks system as they supposedly do with the legacy VSN system, but they seem to prioritize demand balancing since both the DC points system and the legacy weeks system both have happy owners/users. It's true that adding Abound will add one more bucket for the inventory managers to allocate VSN inventory to, but that's OK if they allocate based on demand. I know VSN owners are getting tired of hearing MVC owners compare this transition to the DC transition in 2010, but there are parallels. 

Sales will continue to feed the fear that VSN will evaporate in their push to make the new sale, just as they have been saying for 12 years that the MVC weeks system is dead. But we can still book our prime time whale season weeks at Maui Ocean Club and Waiohai, and while we don't use II ourselves any more, many TUGgers do, so the legacy MVC weeks system is still alive and well. In fact, 40% of MVC owners still don't use the points system.



timsi said:


> Not only it is not overblown, there are tangible things that have been taken away.
> 
> In average, one in 30 Marriott owners is delinquent. Many owners have 1 week if not half (isn't the average 1 week?)  and many pay 12 or 15 % interest for their little VOI. The last thing some owners need is to be screwed with the ownership more than they already are.   I do not think that those who will benefit from it can speak for those that are at a loss since they are not the ones that will make them whole.



I don't think the loss of some benefits, particularly for the VSN Elite members, is overblown. For those owners that value the benefits they have used that are going away, the loss is certainly real. Where I think there is unwarranted concern, however, is the fear that Marriott will play fast and loose with inventory management. If they were inclined to do that, I think we would have seen more degradation in the legacy MVC weeks system over the years. While some will point out some changes in weeks availability around the margins, by and large, the MVC weeks system still works.


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## CPNY (Aug 28, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> If Vistana owners prefer Abound and elect points, then you need to blame Vistana owners if VSN deteriorates. If Marriott offers more through Abound, then that is the only reason Vistana owners would elect Abound points and VSN would get would get worse.


This is the question. So let’s say only 100 Vistana villages owners elect their summer weeks to abound club points in the programs first year. Does that mean that there will only be 100 vistana villages summer weeks available in abound or will Marriott take 20 varied weeks from 5 resorts? When it comes to flex options, what’s going to stop Marriott from putting the best weeks into abound?

The concern isn’t that there will be nothing available in the VSN the real concern is Marriott not being equitable with inventory options. To be clear, I am not claiming that Marriott won’t be I’m just saying it’s a concern that many have, including myself. Can I see Marriott putting the best inventory in abound? Yes. Truthfully, our concerns are extremely valid since we have been told there would be no good inventory in the VSN going forward by Marriott employees themselves.


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## VacationForever (Aug 28, 2022)

CPNY said:


> This is the question. So let’s say only 100 Vistana villages owners elect their summer weeks to abound club points in the programs first year. Does that mean that there will only be 100 vistana villages summer weeks available in abound or will Marriott take 20 varied weeks from 5 resorts? When it comes to flex options, what’s going to stop Marriott from putting the best weeks into abound?
> 
> The concern isn’t that there will be nothing available in the VSN the real concern is Marriott not being equitable with inventory options. To be clear, I am not claiming that Marriott won’t be I’m just saying it’s a concern that many have, including myself. Can I see Marriott putting the best inventory in abound? Yes. Truthfully, our concerns are extremely valid since we have been told there would be no good inventory in the VSN going forward by Marriott employees themselves.


You don't elect specific weeks.  You simply elect your week. Abound will take equal/varied weeks.


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## timsi (Aug 28, 2022)

CPNY said:


> This is the question. So let’s say only 100 Vistana villages owners elect their summer weeks to abound club points in the programs first year. Does that mean that there will only be 100 vistana villages summer weeks available in abound or will Marriott take 20 varied weeks from 5 resorts? When it comes to flex options, what’s going to stop Marriott from putting the best weeks into abound?
> 
> The concern isn’t that there will be nothing available in the VSN the real concern is Marriott not being equitable with inventory options.


It is not the Vistana owners who deposit in Abound that will drive the VSN to the ground but those that designed Abound giving it competitive advantage where it matters. It  is deliberate and mean to those that bought the system assuming the system will work as they were told it would work based on a SO chart that was shown to them.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 28, 2022)

CPNY said:


> This is the question. So let’s say only 100 Vistana villages owners elect their summer weeks to abound club points in the programs first year. Does that mean that there will only be 100 vistana villages summer weeks available in abound or will Marriott take 20 varied weeks from 5 resorts? When it comes to flex options, what’s going to stop Marriott from putting the best weeks into abound?
> 
> The concern isn’t that there will be nothing available in the VSN the real concern is Marriott not being equitable with inventory options. To be clear, I am not claiming that Marriott won’t be I’m just saying it’s a concern that many have, including myself. Can I see Marriott putting the best inventory in abound? Yes. Truthfully, our concerns are extremely valid since we have been told there would be no good inventory in the VSN going forward by Marriott employees themselves.


That is a good question in regard to how they will manage inventory when a Flex owner elects Abound Club Points from their VOI or a portion of their VOI (they can elect in 20K increments). I guess the question is, what are good weeks. A good week for one person is too expensive to book for another one. Sure they could take all the Sheraton Kauai or Steamboat Ski weeks, but those also require a lot of points to book and they may go unused in Abound because of the number of points needed. I suspect the inventory management system is rather complex to make sure they take only what they are able to fulfill. People still like to go to Vistana Villages


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## timsi (Aug 28, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I think what MVC owners are saying though, is that same language has been in the fine print for the last 12 years. MVC had/has the same incentives to play loose with inventory from the legacy MVC weeks system as they supposedly do with the legacy VSN system, but they seem to prioritize demand balancing since both the DC points system and the legacy weeks system both have happy owners/users. It's true that adding Abound will add one more bucket for the inventory managers to allocate VSN inventory to, but that's OK if they allocate based on demand. I know VSN owners are getting tired of hearing MVC owners compare this transition to the DC transition in 2010, but there are parallels.
> 
> Sales will continue to feed the fear that VSN will evaporate in their push to make the new sale, just as they have been saying for 12 years that the MVC weeks system is dead. But we can still book our prime time whale season weeks at Maui Ocean Club and Waiohai, and while we don't use II ourselves any more, many TUGgers do, so the legacy MVC weeks system is still alive and well. In fact, 40% of MVC owners still don't use the points system.
> 
> ...


There are so many things that have changed  and VSN 2022  is not legacy weeks 2010, how many times can the Vistana owners repeat that? VSN is an internal exchange, already complicated with the different flex ownerships plus mandatory, voluntary VOIS. VSN is put at a competitive disadvantage vs Abound. It is done on purpose and one does not have to wait a year or two to confirm malicious intent because it is in plain site already.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 28, 2022)

timsi said:


> There are so many things that have changed  and VSN 2022  is not legacy weeks 2010, how many times can the Vistana owners repeat that?


The bulk of Vistana ownerships is still sitting in legacy weeks.


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## vacationtime1 (Aug 28, 2022)

timsi said:


> There are so many things that have changed  and VSN 2022  is not legacy weeks 2010, *how many times can the Vistana owners repeat that?*


Well, *you *seem to repeat this dozens of times.


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## timsi (Aug 28, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> The bulk of Vistana ownerships is still sitting in legacy weeks.


Even if true and I would like to see the source, those weeks already trade in VSN in addition to their home resort.


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## pchung6 (Aug 28, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> The bulk of Vistana ownerships is still sitting in legacy weeks.


A lot Vistana owners just recently bought flex based on the Staroptions chart and values. Now I see Marriott is stupid enough to deteriorate VSN just in few years. A lot Vistana people just paid big bucks now the value is cut by so much in Abound and Marriott is stripping away VSN benefits slowly and yearly. I’m very concerned about VAC stock now with long and deep upcoming recession.


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## timsi (Aug 28, 2022)

vacationtime1 said:


> Well, *you *seem to repeat this dozens of times.


I may have said it 3 or four times but for sure I have seen 2010 mentioned dozens of times.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 28, 2022)

timsi said:


> I may have said it 3 or four times but for sure I have seen 2010 mentioned dozens of times.



I think why we keep bringing it up is because we see parallels between 2010 and 2022 that are valid, and we are trying to allay some of the concerns we read from VSN owners who are uncomfortable with what is happening. We can't stop you from being worried, but we can provide info that we see as comparable/relevant. And this is coming not from just MVC owners like me, but from others who own in both systems and are knowledgeable about both.

Yes, VSN is a different system with more options/flexibility than the legacy MVC weeks system was in 2010, but when you boil it down, Abound just represents a new bucket of inventory that the program manager will need to allocate inventory to. So, as it relates to inventory management, I don't see why Marriott would have more incentive to unfairly siphon inventory from VSN than they have for the last 12 years with MVC weeks. I don't understand why you think they would treat VSN differently. Can you help me understand what you think they would unfairly siphon inventory from VSN versus what they have done MVC weeks? Forget what Sales says - they will say VSN is going to die just like they have been predicting the demise of MVC weeks since 2010.


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## Ken555 (Aug 28, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I stopped using SOs because I lost SOs and it was hard to book what I wanted at 8 months. I would have to keep checking and I might get something or I might not. Usually if I found something with at least 7 days at 8 months, the dates could be wrong. Forget trying to get more than 7 days at 8 months with SOs. So I decided to only use my home resort or rent it out when I could not use it. Then I do not lose. But the bad part is I purchased partly for SOs and and it turned out to be a disappointment. I felt like it was bait and switch by Vistana.



I have one 11-night stay at Harborside via SOs for this year, and have had other 7+ night stays at WKORV and other resorts. StarOptions worked great for me for 15 years, and I haven't yet lost all hope that it won't work in the future. I see no reason to pay more money to get the same results I've had for 15 years - that's the real disappointment for me.


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## TravelTime (Aug 28, 2022)

The way I look at it is that it is valid to be worried, even sad, about the changes. 

Anyone who paid big bucks for Flex (which I believe is developer purchased) or anything else developer purchased will be eligible to stay in VSN or elect Abound points. 

Anyone who is not happy is free to re-sell their resale week that they did not pay big bucks for. Right now, resale prices are higher than they were a few years ago. 

Frankly, I was considering re-selling my resale Vistana week if I did not like the new integrated program. I have held this week for 4 years waiting to see what would happen. I can get thousands more now. But now I am keeping it since it is mandatory and eligible. To me, this is like getting a free gift. How can anyone with a mandatory resale week prior to 8/9 shoot the gift horse in the mouth? 

In the end, we can be unhappy but acceptance of reality is an important skill to learn. The only constant is change.


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## Ken555 (Aug 28, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> How can anyone with a mandatory resale week prior to 8/9 shoot the gift horse in the mouth?



Once again, my mandatory WKV 2-bed in Abound won't be able to get the same number of nights at other resorts as it can within VSN. Why do you keep suggesting Abound is good for almost everyone? It's not - at least, based on the info we have so far.


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## CPNY (Aug 28, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Frankly, I was considering re-selling my resale Vistana week if I did not like the new integrated program. I have held this week for 4 years waiting to see what would happen. I can get thousands more now. But now I am keeping it since it is mandatory and eligible. To me, this is like getting a free gift. How can anyone with a mandatory resale week prior to 8/9 shoot the gift horse in the mouth?
> 
> In the end, we can be unhappy but acceptance of reality is an important skill to learn. The only constant is change.


we have no idea if mandatory resale units that have not been retro enrolled with an additional purchase will actually be included…  it sounds like they will be but doesn’t mean that’s the case. If they are, I will be extremely happy and not shoot any horse. Partly because I love horses and would never want to hurt one but also because I’ll be at executive level lol


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## timsi (Aug 28, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> The way I look at it is that it is valid to be worried, even sad, about the changes.
> 
> Anyone who paid big bucks for Flex (which I believe is developer purchased) or anything else developer purchased will be eligible to stay in VSN or elect Abound points.
> 
> ...


Just because your situation has improved, it does not mean that has improved for 90% of the Vistana owners, I do not understand how some tuggers (who own several weeks in both so they benefit) can't try to be more objective. 
If the good VSN inventory is significantly reduced (and nobody expects the high value weeks to continue to be deposited in VSN)  , those who bought points or weeks from the developer based on the StarOptions calendar and with the primary intention to trade in VSN have the right to be very unhappy. Just because they may have access to some additional desert resorts in the summer or mountain resorts in the mud season through Abound  does not compensate them for the real loss.  Again the banking alone is huge, it means they may have lost 33% of their purchasing power even in VSN so harder to get better season, longer vacations or larger units. If they can't find what they need in VSN, they may find the Abound calendar very expensive especially if they can only travel during the peak season. Again, they bought based on the SO chart they were shown so do not blame them. Shorter banking also means more points lost (another good reason for Marriott to like it).

No, it won't be easy for those who want to sell Flex the loss may be higher and the wait longer than before. Prior to this, one could buy 100,000 Homeoptions resale and requalify with 10k from the developer so there was a limited but healthy market for that. If they increase the minimum to 40k or so, most potential buyers will be priced out.  Especially the Sheraton flex owners who want out are probably in a bad place going forward.


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## timsi (Aug 28, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I think why we keep bringing it up is because we see parallels between 2010 and 2022 that are valid, and we are trying to allay some of the concerns we read from VSN owners who are uncomfortable with what is happening. We can't stop you from being worried, but we can provide info that we see as comparable/relevant. And this is coming not from just MVC owners like me, but from others who own in both systems and are knowledgeable about both.
> 
> Yes, VSN is a different system with more options/flexibility than the legacy MVC weeks system was in 2010, but when you boil it down, Abound just represents a new bucket of inventory that the program manager will need to allocate inventory to. So, as it relates to inventory management, I don't see why Marriott would have more incentive to unfairly siphon inventory from VSN than they have for the last 12 years with MVC weeks. I don't understand why you think they would treat VSN differently. Can you help me understand what you think they would unfairly siphon inventory from VSN versus what they have done MVC weeks? Forget what Sales says - they will say VSN is going to die just like they have been predicting the demise of MVC weeks since 2010.


2010 legacy is not 2022 VSN EXCHANGE. There you go, I said it again 

VSN (the exchange, not the company) was put in a competitive DISADVANTAGE by design.


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## TravelTime (Aug 28, 2022)

After all this discussion and my enthusiasm for electing points Abound for my Vistana week at no cost, if this is wrong and there is a high junk fee or a requirement to buy points, I decided awhile back that I would NOT enroll my week. I would probably dispose of it since I am not using it enough as a home resort and never plan to use SOs again since I lost a bunch.


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## rcv82 (Aug 28, 2022)

For what it is worth, I am looking forward to limited use of Abound exchanges. I don’t think Marriott has any real incentive to take the best inventory from Vistana owners to place it in Abound. I don’t think this changes the revenue to Marriott at all. What they do have financial incentive to do is take the best weeks for inventory they control for direct rentals. But Abound doesn’t change this. 

As a 5* VSE owner that will have over 50k in Abound point status credit, the thing that annoys me the most is taking away the late checkout benefit. I know it might seem trivial to some, but not having to rush out of the unit at 10 am with everyone else is a luxury that incentivized my purchases. That really doesn’t cost them anything, just a little complication on the cleaning schedule for a small number of the rooms. 

The banking changes are also real benefit cuts. It was very nice being able to go to the end of the year to bank. And for lower statuses, the shorter duration is a big deal. 

The bottom line is that very few of the elite benefits, with the exception of taking away less banking benefits, have applicability unless you use Abound. To me, Marriott, that is kind of shameful and disrespectful to the loyal Westin and Sheraton owners who may made sizable purchases, even if some of it was by retro-ing a resale in. 


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## JIMinNC (Aug 28, 2022)

timsi said:


> 2010 legacy is not 2022 VSN EXCHANGE. There you go, I said it again
> 
> VSN (the exchange, not the company) was put in a competitive DISADVANTAGE by design.



I was hoping you would explain how and why you think the VSN exchange has been disadvantaged with regard to inventory. Making the same statement again and again doesn't help me understand why. I've tried to explain my rationale with specific info. 

I understand VSN owners didn't ask for this change and some are angry, but neither did we ask for it on the MVC side. I'm sure there will be increased competition from VSN members in some already hard to book MVC places like Aruba and Marco Island. We could get upset about that too, but I don't read the same angst on the MVC board. Also, if you read some of the Facebook groups where the more mass-market owners go for information, I see a lot of VSN people who are eager to go to MVC resorts. They will have access to all the inventory in the MVC Exchange on day 1, so we will have new competition, even if it doesn't come from the more educated owners in the TUG VSN group.

In any event, sorry you feel VSN has been disadvantaged. We'll see how it goes.


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## timsi (Aug 28, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I was hoping you would explain how and why you think the VSN exchange has been disadvantaged with regard to inventory. Making the same statement again and again doesn't help me understand why. I've tried to explain my rationale with specific info.
> 
> I understand VSN owners didn't ask for this change and some are angry, but neither did we ask for it on the MVC side. I'm sure there will be increased competition from VSN members in some already hard to book MVC places like Aruba and Marco Island. We could get upset about that too, but I don't read the same angst on the MVC board. Also, if you read some of the Facebook groups where the more mass-market owners go for information, I see a lot of VSN people who are eager to go to MVC resorts. They will have access to all the inventory in the MVC Exchange on day 1, so we will have new competition, even if it doesn't come from the more educated owners in the TUG VSN group.
> 
> In any event, sorry you feel VSN has been disadvantaged. We'll see how it goes.


It is not that I "feel" VSN has been disadvantaged. Sorry if I did not address it in the last post, it seems you may have missed some of my other comments.

Four months before trading starts in VSN, the Vistana owners can only book in Abound. This is a huge advantage and will bring a lot of deposits that would not be made  if they both started at the same time. In addition, during those 4 months, the owners of the most valuable units will see that they can get more points in Abound and will have an incentive to deposit so the combination of the two is extremally powerful. Of course, the best inventory will attract even more VSN deposits, and it will snowball from there. BUT Abound had a problem that had to be dealt with: the banking in VSN is two years. This is very strong too, it is extremely convenient and efficient to combine 3 years of points instead of 2 when you want to trade. This incentive had to go, and it will go but that  is not enough, they will also take away other VSN features like concierge, early and late check in/out, extended  banking deadlines. As you can see, not only they designed Abound to be better, but they also wanted to make sure VSN is demoted in every aspect it had an edge to make it clear who is the king's favorite daughter you should merry.


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## CPNY (Aug 28, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I was hoping you would explain how and why you think the VSN exchange has been disadvantaged with regard to inventory. Making the same statement again and again doesn't help me understand why. I've tried to explain my rationale with specific info.
> 
> I understand VSN owners didn't ask for this change and some are angry, but neither did we ask for it on the MVC side. I'm sure there will be increased competition from VSN members in some already hard to book MVC places like Aruba and Marco Island. We could get upset about that too, but I don't read the same angst on the MVC board. Also, if you read some of the Facebook groups where the more mass-market owners go for information, I see a lot of VSN people who are eager to go to MVC resorts. They will have access to all the inventory in the MVC Exchange on day 1, so we will have new competition, even if it doesn't come from the more educated owners in the TUG VSN group.
> 
> In any event, sorry you feel VSN has been disadvantaged. We'll see how it goes.


I wouldn’t expect much griping on the marriott board at all…. NOTHING changes for them. The only exception would be the amount of “bookers” in the exchange and possibly having the exchange funded with prime vistana weeks. While I agree the MVC owners have to worry about increased “bookers” when it comes to inventory in the exchange, one thing MVC owners don’t have to worry about is taking prime MVC inventory and putting it into another exchange platform like VSN owners worry about. Granted there is nothing proving that will happen, it’s a “worry” of what can happen. Although according to some Marriott owners on TUG, MVC owners should have first right to prime inventory because “it was an acquisition not a merger”

another thing that has been changed for vistana owners are the banking deadlines. It’s almost as if Marriott moved deadlines up for SO banking just to give a slight buffer for those who missed the deadline, they can still elect for abound points.


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## Venter (Aug 28, 2022)

timsi said:


> It is not that I "feel" VSN has been disadvantaged. Sorry if I did not address it in the last post, it seems you may have missed some of my other comments.
> 
> Four months before trading starts in VSN, the Vistana owners can only book in Abound. This is a huge advantage and will bring a lot of deposits that would not be made  if they both started at the same time. In addition, during those 4 months, the owners of the most valuable units will see that they can get more points in Abound and will have an incentive to deposit so the combination of the two is extremally powerful. Of course, the best inventory will attract even more VSN deposits, and it will snowball from there. BUT Abound had a problem that had to be dealt with: the banking in VSN is two years. This is very strong too, it is extremely convenient and efficient to combine 3 years of points instead of 2 when you want to trade. This incentive had to go, and it will go but that  is not enough, they will also take away other VSN features like concierge, early and late check in/out, extended  banking deadlines. As you can see, not only they designed Abound to be better, but they also wanted to make sure VSN is demoted in every aspect it had an edge to make it clear who is the king's favorite daughter you should merry.


I see your frustration.  Did you buy resale or developer?  Are you in a 'most valuable' unit?
I am trying to get perspective.


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## pchung6 (Aug 28, 2022)

One biggest concern would be unsold and unused inventory will go to Abound. These used to go to VSN inventory. Plus a lot of benefits are taking away as @CNPY mentioned and for sure Marriott will slowly taking others away just like what happened to SPG every year.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 28, 2022)

timsi said:


> It is not that I "feel" VSN has been disadvantaged. Sorry if I did not address it in the last post, it seems you may have missed some of my other comments.
> 
> Four months before trading starts in VSN, the Vistana owners can only book in Abound. This is a huge advantage and will bring a lot of deposits that would not be made  if they both started at the same time. In addition, during those 4 months, the owners of the most valuable units will see that they can get more points in Abound and will have an incentive to deposit so the combination of the two is extremally powerful. Of course, the best inventory will attract even more VSN deposits, and it will snowball from there. BUT Abound had a problem that had to be dealt with: the banking in VSN is two years. This is very strong too, it is extremely convenient and efficient to combine 3 years of points instead of 2 when you want to trade. This incentive had to go, and it will go but that  is not enough, they will also take away other VSN features like concierge, early and late check in/out, extended  banking deadlines. As you can see, not only they designed Abound to be better, but they also wanted to make sure VSN is demoted in every aspect it had an edge to make it clear who is the king's favorite daughter you should merry.



Thanks, for the explanation. I think I may understand better where the angst is coming from. 

From what you wrote, it sounds like you think the owners of more in-demand VSN locations like Maui are being incentivized to to switch their usage to Abound by high point allocations. This change would likely mean that owners of lesser-demanded VSN locations that historically got a high point VSN allocation just like Maui, would then have less inventory availability in Maui to book. I can certainly understand if you are an owner who has been used to even swaps of somewhere like Westin Kierland for Maui, that you would not want that to change. But I can also see where owners at WKORV might be pleased with their new options.

I honestly never really understood why the VSN points system did not differentiate more between high-demand and lower demand locations. I never understood why they designed a system where a Westin Kierland owner could swap on a 1:1 basis for Westin Maui. To some degree the Hilton system (where we own one week) is the same way. Our 2BR in Orlando gets the same point allocation as a 2BR on the Big Island. HGVC has started to correct this with higher points costs at their newer resorts, but I can't help but think that both VSN and HGVC erred by building their programs that way.


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## rcv82 (Aug 28, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I honestly never really understood why the VSN points system did not differentiate more between high-demand and lower demand locations. I never understood why they designed a system where a Westin Kierland owner could swap on a 1:1 basis for Westin Maui. To some degree the Hilton system (where we own one week) is the same way. Our 2BR in Orlando gets the same point allocation as a 2BR on the Big Island. HGVC has started to correct this with higher points costs at their newer resorts, but I can't help but think that both VSN and HGVC erred by building their programs that way.



Starwood/Vistana always did say the StarOption values were subject to change, and made clear in the sale disclosures that you were buying your home resort with the network exchange as an added benefit. They did change some allocations, such as oceanfront Maui, but this was very limited. VSN operated on a the principle that owners get a rolling 8 to 12 months out, then it is first come first served on a very egalitarian basis. I think it was a way to incentive sales at all locations with the realistic hope of getting to occasionally trade into Maui or wherever. Those that relied on (legitimately) getting more value this way than they purchased are going to get less opportunity now. 

I do agree it will be harder to get to Maui and maybe a couple other places on StarOptions. But the good news is that I bet a lot of the Maui StarOption inventory comes from people who procrastinate and never get around to booking (as StarOptions are not a good use of your week if you own Maui), and Abound isn’t great for procrastinators. 

I think the other resorts that receive lower Abound point allocations (hopefully) will still have good StarOption availability. 


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 28, 2022)

VOIs that had SO adjustments (upwards):
WKORV and WKORVN OF (148.1K to 176.7K) to align with Nanea OF

WSJ-VGV (Twice) - our 2BD TH Gold+ went from 67.1K to 81K to 95.7K for VGV-BV then VGV-CV/SB phases


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## timsi (Aug 28, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Thanks, for the explanation. I think I may understand better where the angst is coming from.
> 
> From what you wrote, it sounds like you think the owners of more in-demand VSN locations like Maui are being incentivized to to switch their usage to Abound by high point allocations. This change would likely mean that owners of lesser-demanded VSN locations that historically got a high point VSN allocation just like Maui, would then have less inventory availability in Maui to book. I can certainly understand if you are an owner who has been used to even swaps of somewhere like Westin Kierland for Maui, that you would not want that to change. But I can also see where owners at WKORV might be pleased with their new options.
> 
> I honestly never really understood why the VSN points system did not differentiate more between high-demand and lower demand locations. I never understood why they designed a system where a Westin Kierland owner could swap on a 1:1 basis for Westin Maui. To some degree the Hilton system (where we own one week) is the same way. Our 2BR in Orlando gets the same point allocation as a 2BR on the Big Island. HGVC has started to correct this with higher points costs at their newer resorts, but I can't help but think that both VSN and HGVC erred by building their programs that way.


I assume we both agree now that they designed Abound  with more attractive features and they demoted VSN.

Whether the system was " fair" is another topic. HGVC also operates for most part in a similar manner as Vistana, this is what people buy and it cannot be unfair since buyers can opt for A, B, C etc. There are always be oddities and inconsistencies, even within the new Marriott points chart (why Lagunamar oceanview is as expensive as oceanside, why Westin Los Cabos is more expensive than Lagunamar etc). The question is if people are aware of what they buy and if they are, they will decide based on price and their needs. Someone who bought a 2BR Westin Kaanapali oceanfront (retail or resale) was not disadvantaged by the rules, he simply bought knowing the price and what he was getting in return. He also knew he could buy Orlando for less money and cheaper StarOptions but he still bought Maui. Had the rules been different and Maui had a lot more SOs, I can assure you that the price would have been higher both retail and resale. So why anyone thinks it is/was unfair? The market was balanced, they are in reality creating NOW big winners and big losers, and the winners will not compensate the losers.

Given that Vistana (now Marriott) sold a lot of Flex in the last couple of years likely knowing of the huge devaluation ahead, let me be skeptical about them in general.  I also think the changes are designed to help Marriott more than anyone else and because that comes to the loss of so many, and they still did not care, it is hard for me to believe that they will deal fairly with a number of other issues including the inventory.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 28, 2022)

timsi said:


> I assume we both agree now that they designed Abound  with more attractive features and they demoted VSN.
> 
> Whether the system was " fair" is another topic. HGVC also operates for most part in a similar manner as Vistana, this is what people buy and it cannot be unfair since buyers can opt for A, B, C etc. There are always be oddities and inconsistencies, even within the new Marriott points chart (why Lagunamar oceanview is as expensive as oceanside, why Westin Los Cabos is more expensive than Lagunamar etc). The question is if people are aware of what they buy and if they are, they will decide based on price and their needs. Someone who bought a 2BR Westin Kaanapali oceanfront (retail or resale) was not disadvantaged by the rules, he simply bought knowing the price and what he was getting in return. He also knew he could buy Orlando for less money and cheaper StarOptions but he still bought Maui. Had the rules been different and Maui had a lot more SOs, I can assure you that the price would have been higher both retail and resale. So why anyone thinks it is/was unfair? The market was balanced, they are in reality creating NOW big winners and big losers, and the winners will not compensate the losers.
> 
> Given that Vistana (now Marriott) sold a lot of Flex in the last couple of years likely knowing of the huge devaluation ahead, let me be skeptical about them in general.  I also think the changes are designed to help Marriott more than anyone else and because that comes to the loss of so many, and they still did not care, it is hard for me to believe that they will deal fairly with a number of other issues including the inventory.



Yes, I think we now agree that Abound is designed in a way that could disadvantage some VSN owners if it causes the most desirable inventory to migrate to Abound. I’m not willing to go quite as far as you are in trying to imply certain motives for Marriott, maybe mainly because I think their demand-based points model seems to have worked well for MVC owners over the last 12 years. I do think the Marriott model has always been a more demand-based point schedule than VSN, so it was probably inevitable that such a model would be the surviving model for the combined system.

What is “fair” is in the eye of the beholder I guess, but I do now see why some VSN owners don’t like the changes and the impacts that could have on their ability to use their ownership as they have become accustomed.


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## timsi (Aug 28, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Yes, I think we now agree that Abound is designed in a way that could disadvantage some VSN owners...


It was designed to disadvantage VSN itself, this was my point. The owners that are disadvantage (I speculate many or most) are collateral damage.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 28, 2022)

The majority of VSN VOIs in Abound will be of lower tier - only a minority of Owners will turn in valuable VOIs as it doesn’t make financial/vacation sense. 
Thus, keeping VSN viable for these higher tier VOIs.
Why trade downwards, outside of convenience? Or being bad at math…


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## dioxide45 (Aug 28, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> Why trade downwards, outside of convenience? Or being bad at math…


You'd be surprised at how many people would do it for both reason...


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## Ken555 (Aug 28, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> The majority of VSN VOIs in Abound will be of lower tier - only a minority of Owners will turn in valuable VOIs as it doesn’t make financial/vacation sense.
> Thus, keeping VSN viable for these higher tier VOIs.
> Why trade downwards, outside of convenience? Or being bad at math…
> 
> ...



It’s shiny! Must…trade…my…precious.


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## TravelTime (Aug 28, 2022)

timsi said:


> It is not that I "feel" VSN has been disadvantaged. Sorry if I did not address it in the last post, it seems you may have missed some of my other comments.
> 
> Four months before trading starts in VSN, the Vistana owners can only book in Abound. This is a huge advantage and will bring a lot of deposits that would not be made  if they both started at the same time. In addition, during those 4 months, the owners of the most valuable units will see that they can get more points in Abound and will have an incentive to deposit so the combination of the two is extremally powerful. Of course, the best inventory will attract even more VSN deposits, and it will snowball from there. BUT Abound had a problem that had to be dealt with: the banking in VSN is two years. This is very strong too, it is extremely convenient and efficient to combine 3 years of points instead of 2 when you want to trade. This incentive had to go, and it will go but that  is not enough, they will also take away other VSN features like concierge, early and late check in/out, extended  banking deadlines. As you can see, not only they designed Abound to be better, but they also wanted to make sure VSN is demoted in every aspect it had an edge to make it clear who is the king's favorite daughter you should merry.



“They designed Abound to be better…” Isn‘t this a good thing for MVC and Vistana owners? If you really think they designed Abound to be better, then why are you upset that they designed a better product? 

It is like saying we should still ride in horse and buggy and not automobiles. Then getting angry at the automobile companies because they ruined your horse and buggy business.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 28, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> You'd be surprised at how many people would do it for both reason...





Ken555 said:


> It’s shiny! Must…trade…my…precious.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Understood - but I see that the majority of high-end VSN VOIs would hold pat - not that much different that goes on with exchanging HomeResort for StarOptions (unless they can exchange upwards. eg. WKV Plat to Maui).

Especially with high MFs.
Time will tell.


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## Ken555 (Aug 28, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> “They designed Abound to be better…” Isn‘t this a good thing for MVC and Vistana owners? If you really think they designed Abound to be better, then why are you upset that they designed a better product?
> 
> It is like saying we should still ride in horse and buggy and not automobiles. Then getting angry at the automobile companies because they ruined your horse and buggy business.



Oh my. No. That is not a good analogy. 


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## dioxide45 (Aug 29, 2022)

VSN=Flip Phones
Abound=Top of the line smartphone.


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## timsi (Aug 29, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> “They designed Abound to be better…” Isn‘t this a good thing for MVC and Vistana owners? If you really think they designed Abound to be better, then why are you upset that they designed a better product?
> 
> It is like saying we should still ride in horse and buggy and not automobiles. Then getting angry at the automobile companies because they ruined your horse and buggy business.


By better I meant giving it a clear edge to dismantle VSN, not that a majority of the VSN members  will benefit from Abound. Competitive advantage is probably a better description since I was not referring to the relative usage value of the two for the current members.


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## timsi (Aug 29, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> VSN=Flip Phones
> Abound=Top of the line smartphone.


Is this the new Marriott talking point? 

I hope not, it would be insulting to those who were sold Vistana based on the internal exchange features and the StarOptions chart.


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## Grandma2016 (Aug 29, 2022)

Grandma2016 said:


> Honestly the early check in and late checkout is something we will miss...it is so irritating as we have been loyal owners since it was first developed.


That is the benefit we will miss too.  So frustrating


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## dioxide45 (Aug 29, 2022)

timsi said:


> Is this the new Marriott talking point?
> 
> I hope not, it would be insulting to those who were sold Vistana based on the internal exchange features and the StarOptions chart.


It might be. I heard similar analogies when Marriott rolled out their DC program and how weeks were the old and DC Points the new!


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## Eric B (Aug 29, 2022)

Grandma2016 said:


> That is the benefit we will miss too.  So frustrating



Not at all surprising that you agree with the posting….


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## SandyPGravel (Aug 29, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> I have one 11-night stay at Harborside via SOs for this year, and have had other 7+ night stays at WKORV and other resorts. *StarOptions worked great* for me for 15 years, and I haven't yet lost all hope that it won't work in the future. I see no reason to pay more money to get the same results I've had for 15 years - that's the real disappointment for me.


I agree.  I have a 9 night stay in two separate reservations over Thanksgiving week this year at Harborside using Star Options.  I have stayed at the Westin St John 12 & 13 nights using star options. I have stayed at WKORN 9 nights with star options.


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I wouldn’t expect much griping on the marriott board at all…. NOTHING changes for them. The only exception would be the amount of “bookers” in the exchange and possibly having the exchange funded with prime vistana weeks. While I agree the MVC owners have to worry about increased “bookers” when it comes to inventory in the exchange, one thing MVC owners don’t have to worry about is taking prime MVC inventory and putting it into another exchange platform like VSN owners worry about. Granted there is nothing proving that will happen, it’s a “worry” of what can happen. Although according to some Marriott owners on TUG, MVC owners should have first right to prime inventory because “it was an acquisition not a merger”
> 
> another thing that has been changed for vistana owners are the banking deadlines. It’s almost as if Marriott moved deadlines up for SO banking just to give a slight buffer for those who missed the deadline, they can still elect for abound points.



I own both Marriott and Vistana. I am worried about increased competition for my favorite MVC resorts that already have so much competition that I need to book at 13 months right when the window opens. I have successfully gotten everything I want since I became a member but I suspect it will be a lot harder if Abound is as popular as people here say. I have heard some griping on Facebook about this. I think Abound needs to put more inventory into Abound due to increased demand, and high demand has always been there for the best resorts and best views.


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> The majority of VSN VOIs in Abound will be of lower tier - only a minority of Owners will turn in valuable VOIs as it doesn’t make financial/vacation sense.
> Thus, keeping VSN viable for these higher tier VOIs.
> Why trade downwards, outside of convenience? Or being bad at math…
> 
> ...



I think many higher demand VOIs will actually be turned into Abound. I own Westin Maui North OF and I plan to turn in my VSN because I will get 8300+ Abound points. With that, I can take 2+ vacations in 2BR with OF views in many Abound resorts bc I often travel off season. I can‘t that in VSN.


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## CPNY (Aug 29, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I think many higher demand VOIs will actually be turned into Abound. I own Westin Maui North OF and I plan to turn in my VSN because I will get 8300+ Abound points. With that, I can take 2+ vacations in 2BR with OF views in many Abound resorts bc I often travel off season. I can‘t that in VSN.


This makes sense. The Maui OF is much better off in abound than in the VSN. Things like  an SVV 1 bedroom is better off in VSN/interval than abound. This is why it’s so important for people to understand all of their options before making a decision on how they book


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> Understood - but I see that the majority of high-end VSN VOIs would hold pat - not that much different that goes on with exchanging HomeResort for StarOptions (unless they can exchange upwards. eg. WKV Plat to Maui).
> 
> Especially with high MFs.
> Time will tell.
> ...



In Abound, the MFs for Maui OF turn out to be really low, like the lowest in the Abound system. It is approx $0.36 vs approx $0.68 for trust points. So it really is efficient. Most Vistana owners have always looked at the total MF and not truly understood MFs for Maui OF even in the Vistana system. I was showed Vistana owners how I looked at MFs within the Vistana system and not sure anyone understood it.


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## emeryjre (Aug 29, 2022)

MVC is a publicly traded company as we all know.  The company must increase profits every quarter to be considered successful.  They have a limited number of ways to do this.  Keep selling points to a more people.  Very profitable.  The problem is that there are now more people competing for a same number of units, especially during peak periods at peak places.  The Abound program is a fancy smoke and mirror game to make it look like there are more ways to use your newly purchased points.  As has been discussed repeatedly in this thread, there is a loss to VSN members of some benefits, a new skim of points, and no increase in the actual number of units available in the overall Abound system for all the new people being convinced to buy in.

Marriot has increased its profits based on last quarter, and may increase it's profits this upcoming quarter based on increased points sales on the promise of Abound.  The company has achieved success.  The problem is the more you know, the less you like where this is going.  Sometimes being ignorant of how the shell game works is bliss.


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> VSN=Flip Phones
> Abound=Top of the line smartphone.



God analogy. Mine was VSN=horse and buggy, Abound=Automobiles


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## DanCali (Aug 29, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I think many higher demand VOIs will actually be turned into Abound. I own Westin Maui North OF and I plan to turn in my VSN because I will get 8300+ Abound points. With that, I can take 2+ vacations in 2BR with OF views in many Abound resorts bc I often travel off season. I can‘t that in VSN.




If you travel in the offseason like you suggest you can do quite well in SVN with your 176,700 Staroptions. Perhaps not the OF views you mention, because there aren't that many resorts with OF views in VSN outside your home resort, but there are quite a few locations where a 2BR is 95,700 or 81,000 for a full week in the off season which buys you 12-15 nights.

Yes, MVC has a lot more options and perhaps 8300 points get you a bit further in Abound. But I believe most of the Vistana non-Maui inventory will still be in VSN and even more so for the off-peak weeks that were not rewarded highly in Abound. So, to trade to those places Staroptions will probably be a better way to go.


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

DanCali said:


> If you travel in the offseason like you suggest you can do quite well in SVN with your 176,700 Staroptions. Perhaps not the OF views you mention, because there aren't that many resorts with OF views in VSN outside your home resort, but there are quite a few locations where a 2BR is 95,700 or 81,000 for a full week in the off season which buys you 12-15 nights.
> 
> Yes, MVC has a lot more options and perhaps 8300 points get you a bit further in Abound. But I believe most of the Vistana non-Maui inventory will still be in VSN and even more so for the off-peak weeks that were not rewarded highly in Abound. So, to trade to those places Staroptions will probably be a better way to go.



2 places I love to go in June when the water is warm and before hurricane season for appox 8100 points (still have approx 200 points left over):
Ritz St Thomas 2BR ocean view = approx 3700-3900 points
Marco Island 2 BR gulf front = approx 4200 points

There are also quite a few resorts in Hawaii that are easier to get into for about 5000-6000 points in 2BR with ocean views at higher seasons. But even if it is 7000-8000 for 2BR ocean view/ocean front in higher season for non-Maui, it is still a nice exchange if I want Hawaii but do not want to go to my home resort in Maui. The skim is not bad for me in Maui in my exact same unit but when I want to visit Maui in my home resort, I will use VSN. Also I can do less than 1-1 exchanges in most high demand resorts in higher seasons at 12 months. To me, even that is great for diversity.


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## timsi (Aug 29, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> God analogy. Mine was VSN=horse and buggy, Abound=Automobiles


Given how far one can get in VSN with the current chart, *for many* VSN is the automobile and Abound is the donkey.


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## byeloe (Aug 29, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> 2 places I love to go in June when the water is warm and before hurricane season for appox 8100 points (still have approx 200 points left over):
> Ritz St Thomas 2BR ocean view = approx 3700-3900 points
> Marco Island 2 BR gulf front = approx 4200 points
> 
> There are also quite a few resorts in Hawaii that are easier to get into for about 5000-6000 points in 2BR with ocean views at higher seasons. But even if it is 7000-8000 for 2BR ocean view/ocean front in higher season for non-Maui, it is still a nice exchange if I want Hawaii but do not want to go to my home resort in Maui. The skim is not bad for me in Maui in my exact same unit but when I want to visit Maui in my home resort, I will use VSN. Also I can do less than 1-1 exchanges in most high demand resorts in higher seasons at 12 months. To me, even that is great for diversity.


Those are some great exchanges. Your 8300 points is awesome.  We have used our 81000 staroptions from SVV to get 2 weeks in Cancun in January.  That definitely won't be possible in Abound.  I will have to look closer at the MVC resorts to see if there are any locations that interest us


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 29, 2022)

WKORVN OF is the poor man’s WKORV OF

Now do WKORV OFD and OFC in Abound…
OFD ~$32K, ~$3500 MF, rental value ~$6000
OFC ~$38K, ~$3200 MF, rental value ~$6500


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## DanCali (Aug 29, 2022)

timsi said:


> Given how far one can get in VSN with the current chart, *for many* VSN is the automobile and Abound is the donkey.



The one place where Abound has an edge is the ability to transfer points from one owner to another (and thus having an external rental market). In VSN you might be short 1000 Staroptions and you're out of luck. You can borrow from next year, but that involves prepaying MFs and breaking a home resort reservation.

But as an exchange system VSN is a lot cleaner. Points In = Points Out, no skim, with seasons and numbers relatively easy to remember. In Abound you can't usually make a reservation without first checking when the reservation window opens and what is the number of points required - too complicated for me to remember. No election deadlines in VSN. Also, VSN Elite benefits were superior (many of them now being removed), and so was the online reservation system until they decided to break it intentionally by removing the ability to see what's available outside your booking window. It definitely has the feel like they are trying to make it seem antiquated and out of date.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 29, 2022)

CPNY said:


> This makes sense. The Maui OF is much better off in abound than in the VSN. Things like  an SVV 1 bedroom is better off in VSN/interval than abound. This is why it’s so important for people to understand all of their options before making a decision on how they book



Yep, it's the same in the MVC world. People who own in places like the off-beach resorts in Hilton Head; Doral in Florida: Branson, Missouri; Fairway Villas, NJ; Williamsburg; many of the Orlando properties; and almost everyone who owns off-season weeks can find better value trading in Interval, because their low point allocations mean they have to use multiple weeks to get one week in a high demand area. Nevertheless, when you look at Points availability for many of these places, it would seem that a lot of people are still choosing to elect for points despite the low allocations. I doubt all of the availability is due just to Trust ownership. They just adapt and bank/borrow to go where they want to, albeit less frequently. It's easy to do because there is no need to pre-pay maintenance fees and no fees to bank/borrow. At the same time, others still choose to use Interval for better value. Both systems coexist.

But it's also important to note, that many (most?) owners aren't quite as focused on squeezing the last penny of value out of every trade/points transaction as many here are on TUG. As an example, back in the early 2000s through 2013, when we owned at Kaanapali Beach Club (Sunterra, then Diamond) we would trade our Hawaii week for Orlando since we had younger kids - a terrible trade for a numbers cruncher, but it worked for us because we could just go onto RCI and book from instant exchange inventory at HGVC in Orlando without putting in one of the frustrating "request and wait" ongoing searches that we hate. 

While it's certainly true that a VSN owner at a location that Abound valued lower can do better using VSN if they want to travel somewhere where VSN has resorts, it will be interesting to see the appeal that Abound may have in offering so many new places to go. VSN can't get them to Aruba, St. Kitts, Marco Island, Hilton Head Island, the Palm Beaches, Newport Coast, Las Vegas, ocean front in Myrtle Beach, Park City, Lake Tahoe, Big Island, or Oahu. VSN also can't get them to the Pulse locations in New York, Boston, Washington, San Francisco, San Diego, or South Beach, where short stays are popular and can work for folks with smaller allocations. Banking/borrowing might be required for a lower point valued owner to travel to some of the higher point locations, but it will happen. Both programs will co-exist, but over time, the balance will be determined by the choices owners make.


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## dsmrp (Aug 29, 2022)

DanCali said:


> If you travel in the offseason like you suggest you can do quite well in SVN ...
> 
> But I believe most of the Vistana non-Maui inventory will still be in VSN and even more so for the off-peak weeks that were not rewarded highly in Abound. So, to trade to those places Staroptions will probably be a better way to go.


+1  That's has been my alternate plan B for several years, if Hawaii became unavailable or unattainable with my current amount of star options. Exchanging Florida for Hawaii was a good deal while it lasted, but I didn't expect it to last forever.  I know what it feels like to own at more expensive MF Hawaii resort and have less expensive MF owners exchange into it regularly with their cheaper points. But I bought (Hawaii) where I want to go regardless.


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## CPNY (Aug 29, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Yep, it's the same in the MVC world. People who own in places like the off-beach resorts in Hilton Head; Doral in Florida: Branson, Missouri; Fairway Villas, NJ; Williamsburg; many of the Orlando properties; and almost everyone who owns off-season weeks can find better value trading in Interval, because their low point allocations mean they have to use multiple weeks to get one week in a high demand area. Nevertheless, when you look at Points availability for many of these places, it would seem that a lot of people are still choosing to elect for points despite the low allocations. I doubt all of the availability is due just to Trust ownership. They just adapt and bank/borrow to go where they want to, albeit less frequently. It's easy to do because there is no need to pre-pay maintenance fees and no fees to bank/borrow. At the same time, others still choose to use Interval for better value. Both systems coexist.
> 
> But it's also important to note, that many (most?) owners aren't quite as focused on squeezing the last penny of value out of every trade/points transaction as many here are on TUG. As an example, back in the early 2000s through 2013, when we owned at Kaanapali Beach Club (Sunterra, then Diamond) we would trade our Hawaii week for Orlando since we had younger kids - a terrible trade for a numbers cruncher, but it worked for us because we could just go onto RCI and book from instant exchange inventory at HGVC in Orlando without putting in one of the frustrating "request and wait" ongoing searches that we hate.
> 
> While it's certainly true that a VSN owner at a location that Abound valued lower can do better using VSN if they want to travel somewhere where VSN has resorts, it will be interesting to see the appeal that Abound may have in offering so many new places to go. VSN can't get them to Aruba, St. Kitts, Marco Island, Hilton Head Island, the Palm Beaches, Newport Coast, Las Vegas, ocean front in Myrtle Beach, Park City, Lake Tahoe, Big Island, or Oahu. VSN also can't get them to the Pulse locations in New York, Boston, Washington, San Francisco, San Diego, or South Beach, where short stays are popular and can work for folks with smaller allocations. Banking/borrowing might be required for a lower point valued owner to travel to some of the higher point locations, but it will happen. Both programs will co-exist, but over time, the balance will be determined by the choices owners make.


I think the biggest draw to abound for the VSN owner is the ability to rent points when needed if their ownership doesn’t yield enough for a reservation they want.  

I agree that both systems will have benefits and coexist for quite a while


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## dioxide45 (Aug 29, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I think the biggest draw to abound for the VSN owner is the ability to rent points when needed if their ownership doesn’t yield enough for a reservation they want.
> 
> I agree that both systems will have benefits and coexist for quite a while


and you don't even have to elect points in order to be able to rent. You can rent enough for an entire reservation.


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## CPNY (Aug 29, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> and you don't even have to elect points in order to be able to rent. You can rent enough for an entire reservation.


Oh that’s great to know!


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

timsi said:


> Given how far one can get in VSN with the current chart, *for many* VSN is the automobile and Abound is the donkey.



Yes many people keep using old models.


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

byeloe said:


> Those are some great exchanges. Your 8300 points is awesome.  We have used our 81000 staroptions from SVV to get 2 weeks in Cancun in January.  That definitely won't be possible in Abound.  I will have to look closer at the MVC resorts to see if there are any locations that interest us



Was it 2 weeks in 2BRs? We need 2BRs for our family.


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## Grandma2016 (Aug 29, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> and you don't even have to elect points in order to be able to rent. You can rent enough for an entire reservation.


Can you rent points to anyone    im assuming they have to be in the system?


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## dioxide45 (Aug 29, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Was it 2 weeks in 2BRs? We need 2BRs for our family.


It wouldn't have been. You can get 13 nights in Cancun Gold Plus season 1BR (which includes January) for 81,000 StarOptions. For a 2BR, you can only get seven nights.


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## Ken555 (Aug 29, 2022)

timsi said:


> Given how far one can get in VSN with the current chart, *for many* VSN is the automobile and Abound is the donkey.



Yeah, it’s just so apparent that we have a number of constant posters who are Marriott fanatics here and seem to see their ownership through rose tinted glasses. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45 (Aug 29, 2022)

Grandma2016 said:


> Can you rent points to anyone    im assuming they have to be in the system?


You can rent points based reservations to anyone, but to rent and transfer points both parties need to be Abound members.


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> It wouldn't have been. You can get 13 nights in Cancun Gold Plus season 1BR (which includes January) for 81,000 StarOptions. For a 2BR, you can only get seven nights.



Is it 1 week in a 2BR at Lagunamar in high season or low season? What month would it be? I could check the charts but I am being lazy! Ha ha.


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## kozykritter (Aug 29, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> That is a good question in regard to how they will manage inventory when a Flex owner elects Abound Club Points from their VOI or a portion of their VOI (they can elect in 20K increments). I guess the question is, what are good weeks. A good week for one person is too expensive to book for another one. Sure they could take all the Sheraton Kauai or Steamboat Ski weeks, but those also require a lot of points to book and they may go unused in Abound because of the number of points needed. I suspect the inventory management system is rather complex to make sure they take only what they are able to fulfill. People still like to go to Vistana Villages


I would guess also that requests on the wait list might be a factor as well when pulling inventory for Abound. If someone elects home options Sheraton Flex and there are numerous Abound wait list requests for a specific property within that Flex, that may influence what they pull from Flex into Abound, in order to help complete those transactions.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 29, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Is it 1 week in a 2BR at Lagunamar in high season or low season? What month would it be? I could check the charts but I am being lazy! Ha ha.


You can get seven nights in a 2BR in low season with 81K or you can get 13 nights in a 1BR low season with 81K.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 29, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I think the biggest draw to abound for the VSN owner is the ability to rent points when needed if their ownership doesn’t yield enough for a reservation they want.



For knowledgable owners like TUGgers, absolutely. But just like I'm fairly confident the average MVC owner doesn't have a clue that they can rent points or how to do it, I think VSN owners will follow the same pattern. I suspect most owners get their info on how to use the system from sales updates, and we all know how accurate and unbiased those are...


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## CPNY (Aug 29, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> For knowledgable owners like TUGgers, absolutely. But just like I'm fairly confident the average MVC owner doesn't have a clue that they can rent points or how to do it, I think VSN owners will follow the same pattern. I suspect most owners get their info on how to use the system from sales updates, and we all know how accurate and unbiased those are...


Ha that’s a fact! Gotta love those owners updates.


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## kozykritter (Aug 29, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Yeah, it’s just so apparent that we have a number of constant posters who are Marriott fanatics here and seem to see their ownership through rose tinted glasses.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The same can be said about VSN fanatics here. Everyone has their biases.


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## byeloe (Aug 29, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Was it 2 weeks in 2BRs? We need 2BRs for our family.


For us it wasn't in 2bd, but you could get what you need for 162000 staroptions.
I think it would be a bit over 2
10000 points in the new abound.
I think Marriott was trying to close a bit of a loophole when they created the chart for Lagunamar


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## timsi (Aug 29, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> and you don't even have to elect points in order to be able to rent. You can rent enough for an entire reservation.


Great, so in addition to the thousands already spent annually on MF we will have the ability to spend more money to rent in Abound points from other owners in order to do the same reservations that we can currently do in VSN using what we already own and nothing more.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 29, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Yeah, it’s just so apparent that we have a number of constant posters who are Marriott fanatics here and seem to see their ownership through rose tinted glasses.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





kozykritter said:


> The same can be said about VSN fanatics here. Everyone has their biases.


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

I checked the charts. I do not know how many Club Points 81,000 converts to. Would it be approx 3400? Is conversion 24:1? Even if it is less, I can still make Abound work better for me than SOs for the below reasons.

There are dates that overlap with Vistana’s definition of high season for 2BR at 3950 club points, not as many dates when we could visit but early June is a time we travel every year. The lowest season is only 2400 points but we are less likely to go during those dates due to the school calendar. So if I use 3950 club points for Lagunamar, then I still have enough points for another good week somewhere else.

I would not divide my 2 BR WKOVRN OF into a 1 BR and a studio in order to try to book at Lagunamar at 8 months. Like I said, I need 2BR and prefer staying at resorts with an ocean view unless it is a non-beach resort.

So to me Abound offers more than I can get through SOs for our travel needs.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 29, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I checked the charts. I do not know how many Club Points 81,000 converts to. Would it be approx 3400? Is conversion 24:1? Even if it is less, I can still make Abound work better for me than SOs for the below reasons.
> 
> There are dates that overlap with Vistana’s definition of high season for 2BR at 3950 club points, not as many dates when we could visit but early June is a time we travel every year. The lowest season is only 2400 points but we are less likely to go during those dates due to the school calendar. So if I use 3950 club points for Lagunamar, then I still have enough points for another good week somewhere else.
> 
> ...


It depends on where the 81,000 comes from. Points? Weeks? The conversion rate is different for everyone depending on exactly what they own. OUr SVV 2BR 81K would get 2,825. Looking at the Abound points charts, 2,800 Club Points don't go very far. Couldn't get a 1BR any time for even a week except for Sept-Oct.


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> It depends on where the 81,000 comes from. Points? Weeks? The conversion rate is different for everyone depending on exactly what they own. OUr SVV 2BR 81K would get 2,825. Looking at the Abound points charts, 2,800 Club Points don't go very far. Couldn't get a 1BR any time for even a week except for Sept-Oct.



If I use 81,000 of my SOs for a 2BR at Lagunamar, then I only have a 1BR with my remaining SOs. With Abound, I can easily get two 2BRs if I elect club points and sometimes in high season, definitely I can make it work regarless of season.


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

I am starting to think there are a couple potential problems with folks who think SOs might be better. Mainly it is a basic lack of knowledge on how to maximize Abound points. There is definitely a learning curve to any new system. I think where the advantage to Vistana over Abound comes in is when you book your home resort due to the skim. OTOH, in years where you do not want to use your home resort, electing Abound points to go somewhere else is simple, easy and effective if you understand the Abound system.


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## byeloe (Aug 29, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I am starting to think there are a couple potential problems with folks who think SOs might be better. Mainly it is a basic lack of knowledge on how to maximize Abound points. There is definitely a learning curve to any new system. I think where the advantage to Vistana over Abound comes in is when you book your home resort due to the skim. OTOH, in years where you do not want to use your home resort, electing Abound points to go somewhere else is simple, easy and effective if you understand the Abound system.


I agree if you own Maui and get 8300 points.  But unfortunately many VSN resorts won't get enough points to be able to stretch 1 week into 2


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 29, 2022)

I see this discussion going in circles.  

I cannot imagine doing anything with our OF Westin Ka'anapali weeks in Marriott's system. If we get to the point where our OF units will not be used, I will rent the weeks or sell them through Syed.  That would only happen if something happened to Rick's or my health.


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## pchung6 (Aug 29, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I see this discussion going in circles.
> 
> I cannot imagine doing anything with our OF Westin Ka'anapali weeks in Marriott's system. If we get to the point where our OF units will not be used, I will rent the weeks or sell them through Syed.  That would only happen if something happened to Rick's or my health.


I'm on the same boat as you. I still cannot figure out what to do with OF Westin Maui with these points. I rather just rent my OF week. For SVV, I can't even reserve any 1 bedroom in Hawaii which I'm currently using SVV for. If somehow SVN inventory dries up, I will just sell my SVV and be done with Marriott. I'm looking at Hilton right now, they have some exciting Hawaii resorts that I might be interested.


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## timsi (Aug 29, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I see this discussion going in circles.
> 
> I cannot imagine doing anything with our OF Westin Ka'anapali weeks in Marriott's system. If we get to the point where our OF units will not be used, I will rent the weeks or sell them through Syed.  That would only happen if something happened to Rick's or my health.


The question is not what those who only use or rent Maui will do but rather will happen with those that have traded  in VSN and whether they will continue with VSN or Abound. I have not seen one hand raised for VSN from a Maui owner but I have many raised for Abound.


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I see this discussion going in circles.
> 
> I cannot imagine doing anything with our OF Westin Ka'anapali weeks in Marriott's system. If we get to the point where our OF units will not be used, I will rent the weeks or sell them through Syed.  That would only happen if something happened to Rick's or my health.



I was just about the say the same thing. Going around in circles. I personally think buying to use is least stressful regardless of how you use it. Everyone likes different things. I even like hotels sometimes.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 29, 2022)

pchung6 said:


> I'm on the same boat as you. I still cannot figure out what to do with OF Westin Maui with these points. I rather just rent my OF week. For SVV, I can't even reserve any 1 bedroom in Hawaii which I'm currently using SVV for. If somehow SVN inventory dries up, I will just sell my SVV and be done with Marriott. I'm looking at Hilton right now, they have some exciting Hawaii resorts that I might be interested.


The only reason I would get Westin Kierland Platinum would be to reserve Maui or Kauai, and if Marriott owners get that inventory before me at 8 months, the Kierland Villas would be a waste of money for us to consider.  I was looking into it and told Syed I would like a couple of weeks but not at his listed prices a few months ago.  Kierland will lose value for me.  I would rather not risk the money for that.


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> The only reason I would get Westin Kierland Platinum would be to reserve Maui or Kauai, and if Marriott owners get that inventory before me at 8 months, the Kierland Villas would be a waste of money for us to consider.  I was looking into it and told Syed I would like a couple of weeks but not at his listed prices a few months ago.  Kierland will lose value for me.  I would rather not risk the money for that.



You own so much. What do you personally use for your own enjoyment?


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## Ken555 (Aug 29, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> The same can be said about VSN fanatics here. Everyone has their biases.



Yes, but this is the Vistana forum… 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ken555 (Aug 29, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> View attachment 63744



What koolaid am *I* drinking? 


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## Ken555 (Aug 29, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I am starting to think there are a couple potential problems with folks who think SOs might be better. Mainly it is a basic lack of knowledge on how to maximize Abound points. There is definitely a learning curve to any new system. I think where the advantage to Vistana over Abound comes in is when you book your home resort due to the skim. OTOH, in years where you do not want to use your home resort, electing Abound points to go somewhere else is simple, easy and effective if you understand the Abound system.



No skim in VSN. And once again, I’ve not had issues reserving what I needed using StarOptions for 15 years. With Abound I wouldn’t be able to get the same number of nights at the same resorts. What knowledge about how to maximum Abound points am I misunderstanding? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 29, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> You own so much. What do you personally use for your own enjoyment?


We only use five weeks every single year: Hono Koa oceanfront, 3 weeks (40 feet to the water from our lanai), and we own 2 weeks at Westin, which we just bought and will use every year and rent the studio to pay the fees.  

I mostly use weeks for exchange purposes.  Thinking of enrolling our resale Shadow Ridge into Abound or DC or whatever it's called.


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## Tfziggs (Aug 29, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I am starting to think there are a couple potential problems with folks who think SOs might be better. Mainly it is a basic lack of knowledge on how to maximize Abound points. There is definitely a learning curve to any new system. I think where the advantage to Vistana over Abound comes in is when you book your home resort due to the skim. OTOH, in years where you do not want to use your home resort, electing Abound points to go somewhere else is simple, easy and effective if you understand the Abound system.



I have no doubt electing club points will be simple and easy.  Effective?  For my ownership, for where and when we want to travel SO are much more effective.  We can get more for less using SO than w/ Abound Club Points (do we have an acronym for these yet?  ACPs? CPs?). 

Here is my analysis based on our ownership (2 WKV resale weeks; one platinum, one gold).  We are a family of 5 so require a 2 bedroom: 


SOsAbound Club PntsWKV Platinum 2 bdr148,100​             4,050WKV Gold 2 bdr81,000​             2,850Total229,100​             6,900


SO vs Abound Club Pnts (2 Bedroom / Full Week)SOs required% of total SOsAbound Pnts required% of total Abound Club PointsWLR (Cancun) January81,000​35%​               5,05073%​WKV (Scottsdale)March148,100​65%​               5,40078%​WDW (Palm Springs) March148,100​65%​               4,72568%​WKORV (Maui) Anytime of year148,100 - 176,70065% - 77%6,075 - 11,475​88% - 166%

In the case of Lagunamar the difference is extreme – it takes only take 35% of my annual SOs to book at 2 bdr in Jan vs. 73% of my Abound club points.  For Palm Springs it is much closer 65% vs 68%, but SO still has the edge.  For those that own high value week(s), like Maui, this analysis will obviously be much different.  But for our ownership, I don’t see much value in Abound. 

Maybe there are MVC resorts that have sweet spots in the DC point chart (like Lagunamar in Jan w/ SO) but in my admittedly quick scan through I haven’t seen many that interest me; I would like to hear from Marriott owners if/where these sweet spots exist.


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## EnglishmanAbroad (Aug 29, 2022)

Isn't it as simple (OK I know nothing is simple where all this is concerned!) as doing what is the best for your own circumstances and using the systems/methods available to you to your advantage?

As and EnglishmanAbroad who is about to become and EnglishmanAtHome (and no I'm not Ozzy Osbourne although I do share his concerns), if I had no luck in the rental market (always been a bit hit and miss and a bit of a hassle TBH)  I had planned on banking and pooling our 192,100 annual SO (Maui and Lagunamar) to have a 'mega' vacation in Maui every 3 years (obviously very dependent upon availability at the 8 month mark for banked SO). Naturally I'll have to scale this back to every 2y with the new banking 'rules' or alternatively dip my toe in the Abound market as it does open up some European options.

All a moot point at the moment as I've already rented out 2023 so I have quite a while to see how it all shakes out.


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## Eric B (Aug 29, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> It wouldn't have been. You can get 13 nights in Cancun Gold Plus season 1BR (which includes January) for 81,000 StarOptions. For a 2BR, you can only get seven nights.





dioxide45 said:


> You can get seven nights in a 2BR in low season with 81K or you can get 13 nights in a 2BR low season with 81K.



At Lagunamar and Cancun a 2 BR high season is 148,100 SOs and a 2 BR low season is 81K.  I can't get the math to work for these using the SO charts.


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## timsi (Aug 29, 2022)

I understand that everyone has their biases, but it is irritating to see comments in the Vistana forum trying to explain us we are not losing anything with Abound, we are actually gaining, like we can't read a points chart (or two).

With 81,000 points from Orlando you can book 1 BR spring break at Lagunamar 
The same VOI from Orlando converts to 2825 Abound points but to book 1BR spring break at Lagunamar you need 3900 Abound points. If you want president's week, it costs 5000 Abound points. Not very complicated folks.


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## kozykritter (Aug 29, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Yes, but this is the Vistana forum…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Every user has the right to engage with every forum. Just ask DeniseM about that.


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## EnglishmanAbroad (Aug 29, 2022)

Eric B said:


> At Lagunamar and Cancun a 2 BR high season is 148,100 SOs and a 2 BR low season is 81K.  I can't get the math to work for these using the SO charts.


13 nights is 1BR, low season for ~81,000 (Fri-Thu or Sat-Fri)


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## Eric B (Aug 29, 2022)

timsi said:


> I understand that everyone has their biases, but it is irritating to see comments in the Vistana forum trying to explain us we are not losing anything with Abound, we are actually gaining, like we can't read a points chart (or two).
> 
> With 81,000 points from Orlando you can book 1 BR spring break at Lagunamar
> The same VOI from Orlando converts to 2825 Abound points but to book 1BR spring break at Lagunamar you need 3900 Abound points. If you want president's week, it costs 5000 Abound points. Not very complicated folks.



Totally agree - it's not all that complicated.  To really benefit from Abound being available to VSN members, those members need to be cognizant of where they want to go and what the exchange rates are.  There is a possibility that Marriott will consciously jigger the mix of what goes to Abound and what goes to VSN in order to screw over the group of folks using VSN or the group of folks using Abound.  I'm happy to hear that the experiences the Marriott folks have had with the interaction between the weeks inventory, the DC inventory and availability in II show they haven't done this historically despite having the ability to screw over those constituencies in the past (which is no guarantee of future performance, of course).  If I have the good fortune of getting the additional Abound eligibility I will consider myself fortunate as a mandator resale Vistana owner and I will do the math to figure out how to most efficiently or effectively use my ownerships to get me where I want to go in a particular year.  I might also pick up enough Aventuras points to get me to the next tier of ownership if that's how things work out, which would be to Marriott's benefit.  I find it a bit hard to believe that they would make the business decision that they will be better off screwing over any particular group of owners in any case as that would probably affect their longer term prospects despite anything a salesman tells me at an update focused on the short term benefit to him (not me or the corporation) of making a sale and a commission.  YMMV.


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## timsi (Aug 29, 2022)

Eric B said:


> I'm happy to hear that the experiences the Marriott folks have had with the interaction between the weeks inventory, the DC inventory and availability in II show they haven't done this historically despite having the ability to screw over those constituencies in the past (which is no guarantee of future performance, of course).



 MVC and the legacy owners was very different story because there were only 2 buckets. Even if Marriott did tilt the inventory a little bit, there were just not enough buckets to matter. Besides, If a good week was sold out in 5 minutes or 3, how would you know, especially tuggers that are really on the ball and may have gotten what they wanted? In our case though, VSN is already fragmented and only starts at 8 months while the other buckets at 12.


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## pchung6 (Aug 29, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> Every user has the right to engage with every forum. Just ask DeniseM about that.


I think most Vistana owners here would be more appreciated if Marriott people can share in Vistana board how they maximize their points and their criteria they elect their legacy weeks into points. Vistana owners can read the point chart. We know what we can do with SOs points and how many points we will get in Abound. No need to come here and educate Vistana owners we will lose nothing or we will get something. Just my thought.


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## wjarcher (Aug 29, 2022)

In the timeshare world, nothing is guaranteed unless you buy a fixed week fixed unit deed.  Any exchange system (no matter whether it is via an exchange company or like VSN or destination points) is subject to availability and rule changes. I own both Vistana and Marriott.  Losing the opportunity of using SVV staroptions for Maui sucks (I still don't see the VSN inventory will be depleted soon after this change though), but you will find good opportunities to use the destination clubs points too if you do your research, 

To give an example, a 2BR platinum Vistana Villages Bella converts to 2825 points and Maui ocean club 1BR Island view only needs 2525 points for quite a few weeks in the year, can be your ways of exchanging into Maui.


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## Moparman42 (Aug 29, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Yes, but this is the Vistana forum…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




In defense of the VSN fanatics..   Some of us purchased Vistana (starwood) because that is where we wanted to go, if I wanted to stay at a Marriott, I would have purchased there.  Of course, that being said, most of the benefits that are going away don't really affect me because I use my KORV to go to KORV.   However, the dues changing DOES affect me since I never banked my options or rented out my unit.  So I will be paying more for features I don't plan on using.


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## wjarcher (Aug 29, 2022)

Moparman42 said:


> In defense of the VSN fanatics..   Some of us purchased Vistana (starwood) because that is where we wanted to go, if I wanted to stay at a Marriott, I would have purchased there.  Of course, that being said, most of the benefits that are going away don't really affect me because I use my KORV to go to KORV.   However, the dues changing DOES affect me since I never banked my options or rented out my unit.  So I will be paying more for features I don't plan on using.


You can opt out of the program to keep paying the VSN fees.


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## pchung6 (Aug 29, 2022)

wjarcher said:


> You can opt out of the program to keep paying the VSN fees.


If you opt out, can you join later? When do I have to make decision?


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## Moparman42 (Aug 29, 2022)

Also,  I looked through the FAQ's and the Abound info, and don't see how to actually opt out at this point..    did anybody see what I missed?


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## wjarcher (Aug 29, 2022)

pchung6 said:


> If you opt out, can you join later? When do I have to make decision?



faq does not answer that yet.  Hopefully we can find out after the program launches.  Opting out is new to Marriott (the destination club is using opt-in since it was launched in 2010: you have to go through enrollment of at least one eligible week to get into the club points program).


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## Ken555 (Aug 29, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> Every user has the right to engage with every forum. Just ask DeniseM about that.



That’s not the point and I’m fairly sure you know that. Of course everyone is welcome to post their thoughts. What is irritating is that this is the Vistana forum and we are being lectured to by Marriott fanatics about how great the new product is when that makes absolutely no sense to many of us, and yet they keep doing it over and over and over…


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## kozykritter (Aug 29, 2022)

Moparman42 said:


> In defense of the VSN fanatics..   Some of us purchased Vistana (starwood) because that is where we wanted to go, if I wanted to stay at a Marriott, I would have purchased there.  Of course, that being said, most of the benefits that are going away don't really affect me because I use my KORV to go to KORV.   However, the dues changing DOES affect me since I never banked my options or rented out my unit.  So I will be paying more for features I don't plan on using.


Nobody needs defending. Nothing wrong with loving your timeshare program and enjoying using it.


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## kozykritter (Aug 29, 2022)

Moparman42 said:


> Also,  I looked through the FAQ's and the Abound info, and don't see how to actually opt out at this point..    did anybody see what I missed?


They might have been intentionally vague in their FAQ on who these mentioned "certain owners" are that can opt out of Abound and the combined fee. Given their other odd wording around eligibility for resales("opportunity to/will be able to elect CP"), it might be mandatory resales owners that choose to effectively "opt out" by not paying an enrollment fee or making an additional purchase to access Abound (if that is required in the end), making them an opt out of the combined fees as well. Instead of being straightforward with the wording, they may have kept it nebulous so that they can then use salespeople to exploit the doubts that come from not knowing and drive sales from those owners before Abound launches. That has been their mode of operation since the soft launch. This is just one possibility that could fit into the wording.


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## wjarcher (Aug 29, 2022)

From exchange value perspective, WKV is the one resort that is significantly devalued from VSN to Abound.   A Marriott Ocean Club 2 BR Garden view converts to 4725 points; 1BR Garden view converts to 3100 points. Lagunamar Platinum+ converts similar points (a little higher) compared with MOC 2BR.  Even SVV 2BR (converts to 2800 points) is comparable to a 1BR in MOC.  WKORV/N has the best value from VSN to Abound.


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## Ken555 (Aug 29, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> Nobody needs defending. Nothing wrong with loving your timeshare program and enjoying using it.



Absolutely. Still, it would be nice to have a bit more objectivity. 

Is there any question that Marriott just nerfed VSN? Other than the possible exception of WKORV OF, which other VSN week can reserve the same or more at the same resort as before Abound? 

Just because Abound is new doesn’t mean it’s good. Just because Marriott didn’t do the worst to owners in the past doesn’t mean they will do the same to VSN owners now. There have been so many reported lies and incorrect statements from Marriott sales as reported here that how can we believe anything other than the written policies of the program? Their marketing may be slick but that doesn’t mean we should just believe until we see the documents, and what we have so far is incomplete (at least, that’s my impression based on the hundreds of posts on TUG and my quick scan of it).

It does seem we have a consensus that WKV 2-bed Plat Plus will be devalued in Abound and others have reported similar issues with SVV and WLR (from what I recall), and I’m sure there are more. I haven’t analyzed the purported new chart as listed here carefully but it shouldn’t be that difficult to figure out which resorts are able to get the same exchange in Abound as in VSN and those which can’t.

I bought Starwood for a reason. I didn’t like everything about Marriott, even though that was what I thought I would be at first. While I visit Marriott resorts and likely will again, I see no reason to own at any at this time. Perhaps this will change. Still, I’m focused on how best to use my ownership so that I can continue with the wonderful stays I’ve had for 15 years. From what I can tell thus far, I can’t get even close if I use the same week in Abound. 

I’m not drinking the koolaid. On the contrary, I’m calling a spade a spade. And I’m not paying 7% while doing so. 


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## timsi (Aug 29, 2022)

wjarcher said:


> You can opt out of the program to keep paying the VSN fees.



Apparently not every Vistana owner can opt out so who are those that can? For those who can opt out, will the banking still be 2 years and not 1? Will we retain all the other features? Will the inventory in VSN going to be as before? 

Just because they say that some can opt out it does not mean they will continue to enjoy what they have now, this is another smoke screen.


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## timsi (Aug 29, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> That’s not the point and I’m fairly sure you know that. Of course everyone is welcome to post their thoughts. What is irritating is that this is the Vistana forum and we are being lectured to by Marriott fanatics about how great the new product is when that makes absolutely no sense to many of us, and yet they keep doing it over and over and over…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Their message has changed from Marriott is great and fair to just suck it up.


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## Ken555 (Aug 29, 2022)

timsi said:


> Their message has changed from Marriott is great and fair to just suck it up.



Yes. There’s also an undercurrent that those of us which bought WKV to trade internally should be thankful we had the time we did since it never made sense that it had as many SOs as it does, that some of us are too cheap to get the better resorts, etc. I’m sorry to say this, but I definitely feel some elitism coming out in certain posts.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## wjarcher (Aug 29, 2022)

timsi said:


> Apparently not every Vistana owner can opt out so who are those that can? For those who can opt out, will the banking still be 2 years and not 1? Will we retain all the other features? Will the inventory in VSN going to be as before?
> 
> Just because they say that some can opt out it does not mean they will continue to enjoy what they have now, this is another smoke screen.



My guess is that all VSN owners can opt out (because they are the users who are eligible for Abound).  The banking rule will be applied to VSN also down the road, so it does not matter whether you opt out or not.  Will the inventory in VSN be the same?  Especially with the way in which Abound uses opt-out model rather than opt-in, the VSN inventory will definitely decrease. (That is the sneaky part about Marriott this time.  Maybe they don't have a lot of VSN underlying weeks to kick off the new program.)


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

wjarcher said:


> From exchange value perspective, WKV is the one resort that is significantly devalued from VSN to Abound.   A Marriott Ocean Club 2 BR Garden view converts to 4725 points; 1BR Garden view converts to 3100 points. Lagunamar Platinum+ converts similar points (a little higher) compared with MOC 2BR.  Even SVV 2BR (converts to 2800 points) is comparable to a 1BR in MOC.  WKORV/N has the best value from VSN to Abound.



Marriott assigned values comparable to properties already in thise locations. That might be a reason.


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

timsi said:


> Apparently not every Vistana owner can opt out so who are those that can? For those who can opt out, will the banking still be 2 years and not 1? Will we retain all the other features? Will the inventory in VSN going to be as before?
> 
> Just because they say that some can opt out it does not mean they will continue to enjoy what they have now, this is another smoke screen.



I thought it means opt out of paying the new fee that packages everything together and you can keep the current fee where you pay the annual fee plus a la carte for other services.


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## timsi (Aug 29, 2022)

wjarcher said:


> My guess is that all VSN owners can opt out (because they are the users who are eligible for Abound).  The banking rule will be applied to VSN also down the road, so it does not matter whether you opt out or not.  Will the inventory in VSN be the same?  Especially with the way in which Abound uses opt-out model rather than opt-in, the VSN inventory will definitely decrease. (That is the sneaky part about Marriott this time.  Maybe they don't have a lot of VSN underlying weeks to kick off the new program.)


If you are only guessing the answer to the first question and the answer to the second and the third is no, please do not suggest that opting out is a true alternative for those that do not like the new program.


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## wjarcher (Aug 29, 2022)

timsi said:


> If you are only guessing the answer to the first question and the answer to the second and the third is no, please do not suggest that opting out is a true alternative for those that do not like the new program.


We'll see.  My guess is that a lot of VSN inventory are due to owners who are not actively managing their timeshare weeks.  For them, they most likely won't opt-out.


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## Ken555 (Aug 29, 2022)

Well, I just received this email from VSN. I assume they aren't silly enough to email this to voluntary owners or those who would not be able to use Abound (such as mandatory resale WKV owners such as myself), but then again who knows.


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## EnglishmanAbroad (Aug 29, 2022)

wjarcher said:


> From exchange value perspective, WKV is the one resort that is significantly devalued from VSN to Abound.   A Marriott Ocean Club 2 BR Garden view converts to 4725 points; 1BR Garden view converts to 3100 points. Lagunamar Platinum+ converts similar points (a little higher) compared with MOC 2BR.  Even SVV 2BR (converts to 2800 points) is comparable to a 1BR in MOC.  WKORV/N has the best value from VSN to Abound.


If the numbers we were given are accurate, we are actually getting better value from our Lagunamar ownership at 19.341 SO/pt than our WKORV/N at 23.887 SO/pt.


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## Ken555 (Aug 29, 2022)

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> If the numbers we were given are accurate, we are actually getting better value from our Lagunamar ownership at 19.341 SO/pt than our WKORV/N at 23.887 SO/pt.



I don't believe WKORV was ever considered an affordable SO trader. Most owners bought to stay there.


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## TravelTime (Aug 29, 2022)

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> If the numbers we were given are accurate, we are actually getting better value from our Lagunamar ownership at 19.341 SO/pt than our WKORV/N at 23.887 SO/pt.



I think your numbers are probably accurate since they have already told people the number Abound points they can get. I do not know the conversions other than for my week. I have heard Vistana has given really good value to Lagunamar.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 29, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> No skim in VSN. And once again, I’ve not had issues reserving what I needed using StarOptions for 15 years. With Abound I wouldn’t be able to get the same number of nights at the same resorts. What knowledge about how to maximum Abound points am I misunderstanding?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



For 2023 - I already rented our WKORV OFD studio for $2800. That means we get 7 days on the OFD 1Bd side for ~$100/nt (assuming $3500 MF)

Yep… Abound sounds like a deal to us 
(Sarcasm Alert)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EnglishmanAbroad (Aug 29, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> I don't believe WKORV was ever considered an affordable SO trader. Most owners bought to stay there.


As did we. The only times I've ever traded 'like for like' was when I left booking late and couldn't get in at WKORV/N so went for 2 weeks in the 1BR/Studio split at Princeville instead (wasn't impressed) and a week in the 2BR at Nanea, got a decent Resort View unit and at least had use of the Pirate Ship at WKORV/N for our grandson.


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## CPNY (Aug 29, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> That’s not the point and I’m fairly sure you know that. Of course everyone is welcome to post their thoughts. What is irritating is that this is the Vistana forum and we are being lectured to by Marriott fanatics about how great the new product is when that makes absolutely no sense to many of us, and yet they keep doing it over and over and over…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


When you try and do that in the Marriott forum, you’re reminded that it’s the Marriott forum and other view points are not welcomed lol


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## Ken555 (Aug 29, 2022)

CPNY said:


> When you try and do that in the Marriott forum, you’re reminded that it’s the Marriott forum and other view points are not welcomed lol



Wow, really? Who are those people? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## pchung6 (Aug 29, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Wow, really? Who are those people?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





CPNY said:


> When you try and do that in the Marriott forum, you’re reminded that it’s the Marriott forum and other view points are not welcomed lol


You guys remind me all the warnings I got and almost got banned there.


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## CPNY (Aug 29, 2022)

pchung6 said:


> You guys remind me all the warnings I got and almost got banned there.


Same lol


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## timsi (Aug 29, 2022)

I just received the email from Vistana about Abound and watched the video. 

According to Brian Miller, President of MVW:
" One thing to point out. *Nothing with your existing ownership changes*. All the usage options, all the usage options you have today,* all the rights you have, you can continue to use just as you have in the past." *

Wow, how is this accurate?  In fact:

No more exclusive rights to book during the home reservation period. 
VSN has become a second-class exchange network. Vistana sold VOIs based on the StarOptions chart and VSN was a pivotal point in the decision to purchase. Important features will be removed (like 2 years banking) and now Abound (an Exchange like VSN) will have 4 months of priority ahead of VSN.
The fragmentation of inventory. Already too many buckets in Vistana (resort owners, flex owners, VSN, both resale and retail, units controlled by Vistana/Marriott). Placing Abound at the same level with the resort owners (12 months reservation period) will have a huge impact on VSN, especially for the weeks and resorts that are already hard to book.
Banked StarOptions will expire after 12 months (18 months for Presidential; 24 months for Chairman). This is a huge loss for those who do not own a gazillion points. Currently it's 24 months for all. (Impacts all except 5-Star Elite / Chairman, and resale voluntary)
Banking StarOptions deadlines will be 31-61 days earlier for most Elite owners (Oct 31 for Chairman and Aug 31 for Executive or Presidential). Currently it's December 31 for 5-Star and Oct 1 for 3-Star and 4-Star. (Impacts mostly VSN Elite Owners)
No more early check-in and late checkout. Currently it's a benefit for 5-Star Elite (Impacts 5-Star Elite Owners)
No more concierge services
The mandatory VOIs have the potential to have a lower resale value due to the changes. Any owner who buys mandatory resale after 8/9 will only have access to a seriously weakened VSN.


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## emeryjre (Aug 29, 2022)

I find it difficult to use an iPad on the forum and trying to reply
screwed up the edit.
I will send an email to various levels of Marriot management pointing out the items that have changed with our VSN Voi ownership


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## daviator (Aug 29, 2022)

timsi said:


> The question is not what those who only use or rent Maui will do but rather will happen with those that have traded  in VSN and whether they will continue with VSN or Abound. I have not seen one hand raised for VSN from a Maui owner but I have many raised for Abound.


I own at WKORV and WKORVN (OV) and have no plans to elect for Abound.  In our case, we just don't have any great desire to travel to any of the MVC resort locations, and we bought Westin because we prefer the higher-quality resorts.  That's not a slam on Abound, just our feeling for now.  Never say never, it's not impossible to imagine that we might elect on rare occasion. 

I see both the advantages and disadvantages of election.  I actually think that, based on what we know, MVC has done a decent job of balancing the interests of all members.  There was a lot of interest in providing reciprocal access to properties for MVC and Vistana owners, and they did that.  There are some wins and some losses... as an elite member, I'm unhappy about the losses to elite privileges.  But I do think the access to additional properties makes this a win for most people, at least so long as VSN continues to be viable.  I'll be unhappy if VSN is starved to the point of uselessness.  Most years, I anticipate wanting to continue to trade into VSN resorts.


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## EasyGoer (Aug 29, 2022)

Just some observations from a Vistana owner that has been absorbing all the information regarding the Abound program which has been very helpful.

1.  We purchased Vistana VOI 18 years ago because we basically liked the Starwood program and the participating resorts which we have enjoyed going to every year. Over the years, we have now stayed at 16 of the 23 resorts. We really didn't purchase with the idea of trading either through RCI or II because for us, going to Hawaii, St. Johns, Cabo, Lagunamar, Scottsdale, Vistana Villages, Westin Riverfront, etc. has been enjoyable and easy through internal trading in Vistana. If we wanted to go to Marriott resorts (which we have) we simply used Marriott Bonvoy.

2. It seems to me that trading (converting) to Club Points is something akin to trading the same horse twice. I certainly would not do it to trade back to my own resort. (or one that I could reserve internally through Vistana) It also appears to me that that when you start converting, a big wet bite is taken by Marriott. That's why I see inequity or imbalances as a result of a conversion when reserving another property.

3.  Last summer (June 2021), I was successful in securing seven(7) units (an outlier to be sure) at WKORN and Nanea, three of which were ocean view and four resort view. This was a combination of of two and one bedroom units to accommodate 22 adults.  I had to borrow from this year's SO to accomplish it but was well worth it for 7 days of sand and surf. I did a computation of what I would have had to pay if I rented directly through Westin and it was approximately $40,000. I did the same thing when our whole family went to the Westin St. John resort. I did it all through the Vistana internal reservation system and I did it without converting anything and it cost me nothing. 

4. The point is: None of this easily happens (if at all) through the Abound program. I do know and understand that Tuggers here have found new and creative ways of converting and exchanging effectively using their owner interest. It's all interesting and fascinating, it is. 
Know this however, the average timeshare owner is not as sophisticated and dedicated to spending the time and effort to trading as Tuggers.
I'm not saying that I will never convert my Vistana VOI to Club Points, I'll probably first have to get tired of going to Hawaii, Caribbean, the Yucatan, Arizona, Colorado or Harborside. I'm sure that will probably happen some day.


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## grrrah (Aug 30, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Well, I just received this email from VSN. I assume they aren't silly enough to email this to voluntary owners or those who would not be able to use Abound (such as mandatory resale WKV owners such as myself), but then again who knows.
> 
> View attachment 63747


Just got this too.  I think this means we won't have to requalify anything.  Maybe a fee, but I doubt its significant as they are already saying "through our membership in VSN".


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## EasyGoer (Aug 30, 2022)

If you are a card-carrying dues-paying member in good  standing with VSN as of 8/8/22, your mandatory & voluntary VOI ownership allows you to participate in the Abound program along with your ownership interests as of that date. I believe this has been stated and verified by Brian Miller, CEO of Marriott.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 30, 2022)

Eric B said:


> At Lagunamar and Cancun a 2 BR high season is 148,100 SOs and a 2 BR low season is 81K.  I can't get the math to work for these using the SO charts.


Sorry. I fixed my post. I meant to say you can get a *1BR* low season for 13 nights with 81K.


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## DanCali (Aug 30, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> For 2023 - I already rented our WKORV OFD studio for $2800. That means we get 7 days on the OFD 1Bd side for ~$100/nt (assuming $3500 MF)
> 
> Yep… Abound sounds like a deal to us
> (Sarcasm Alert)
> ...



To be fair, WKORV/N is the one of the few resorts that was probably treated relatively generously (looks like Lagunamar Platinum and WRF Platinum will be as well).

Just to illustrate, when it comes to rental values the 8300(?) points WKORV OF receives are worth around $5600 in the points rental market ($0.68/point at vacationpointexchange.com). I suspect that is just slightly lower than renting out the entire VOI but maybe by less than 10%? And renting out points is arguably less hassle and less risk than renting a week - just receive a payment and make a call to transfer them. No contracts, changes, special requests, cancelations etc.

So if you view that minor difference as an exchange fee you gain (i) less hassle in the rental process or (ii) access to around 60 new resorts where 8300 points have substantial trading power, especially outside of Maui. 

It probably doesn't make a difference if you just go to WKORV every year but if you don't then you can get some extremely nice options closer to home like Lake Tahoe (Marriott and Ritz) or Orange County (Newport Coast Villas) where you can book a full week and probably have quite a few leftover points you can rent out to offset MFs. To me, those options are more appealing than the CA desert options Vistana offers, and in fact we own at Newport Coast. You can also combine a trip to WPORV with a stay at Waiohai (great all-2BR resort) in Poipu. Basically - new and potentially attractive options.

I'm certainly no fan of many of the changes but I do own with both systems and, in this case, let's just say that if I knew back in March that resale mandatory weeks would be allowed in, I would have purchased 2-3 WKORV/N weeks.


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## DanCali (Aug 30, 2022)

EasyGoer said:


> If you are a card-carrying dues-paying member in good  standing with VSN as of 8/8/22, your mandatory & voluntary VOI ownership allows you to participate in the Abound program along with your ownership interests as of that date. I believe this has been stated and verified by Brian Miller, CEO of Marriott.



Is that the same guy quoted below saying you can continue to use your (5-Star) ownership like you have in the past? I'll tell that to the front-desk person at WSJ next time I ask for a late checkout, and we'll see how much that's worth...

I think we just need to wait and see... until then every marketing email will be coated with honey.



timsi said:


> I just received the email from Vistana about Abound and watched the video.
> 
> According to Brian Miller, President of MVW:
> " One thing to point out. *Nothing with your existing ownership changes*. All the usage options, all the usage options you have today,* all the rights you have, you can continue to use just as you have in the past." *


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## timsi (Aug 30, 2022)

DanCali said:


> Is that the same guy quoted below saying you can continue to use your (5-Star) ownership like you have in the past? I'll tell that to the front-desk person at WSJ next time I ask for a late checkout, and we'll see how much that's worth...
> 
> *I think we just need to wait and see... until then every marketing email will be coated with honey.*



I agree but this is a public company, and these are public statements so they cannot play with the words like a rookie rep in a sales meeting.


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## CPNY (Aug 30, 2022)

EasyGoer said:


> If you are a card-carrying dues-paying member in good  standing with VSN as of 8/8/22, your mandatory & voluntary VOI ownership allows you to participate in the Abound program along with your ownership interests as of that date. I believe this has been stated and verified by Brian Miller, CEO of Marriott.


Where has it been stated and verified?


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## sharr7 (Aug 30, 2022)

The only thing to me that seems like an immediate, sure-to-happen, negative change is the banked points expiration from 2 years to 1.  That is a pretty big deal and seems fairly unnecessary/antagonistic. The slightly earlier deadline to bank points for elites is fairly minor and more of an annoyance than a truly negative change. And I'm not 5* so doesn't affect me but I get the arguments over no more late checkout benefit, though again more annoyance than something that truly shifts how you plan/vacation. 

I think there's overreaction to the Abound points and conversions though. For now, VSN is definitely still in operation and available to use as we always have. I'm not so naive to think they don't WANT to convert everything to one system or that in 20 years everything will be the same as it will be in 2023, but for now they intend to operate the systems concurrently (some have seen/noted different tabs on a demo website). Furthermore, during the months of speculation we've talked at length about if this will cause VSN availability to decrease - I'm of the opinion it will not significantly change things. Abound won't be able to just "steal" VSN weeks from owners - they will have to elect their week which will remove both the week and competition for reservations in VSN. I do expect Marriott will primarily dump their inventory into Abound now, but opinions here seem to be they don't own that much of the highly desirable inventory. 

And the big positive is the 70+ new resorts and tons of new destinations to use our ownerships at. And it's not like II where you're never sure exactly what your week is worth and can get you. It's like a smaller but better II with all high-quality resorts where you know the value of your trade and the week you want to trade into. And instead of an exchange fee they simply offer you a few less points than your week is perhaps technically "worth" per the cost to reserve. And even if some of the conversions seem unfair or extreme, it's an option we didn't have before. 

I've seen both arguments at the same time - usually with Hawaii resorts as an example - people who would never trade in HI for Abound points because it's so valuable (as rental or preferred vacation spot) and people who plan to trade HI into Abound because 6000-8000 points can get you anywhere in Abound, often for multiple weeks. That just shows there's a decent balance that MVW likely wants/expects. Everyone will have their own personal situations and opinions and one option that makes zero sense to you will be a perfect use for someone use. I think most timeshare owners do not rent - maybe even a majority here on TUG where there is constant rental/valuation/cost-conservation discussions. 

I'm also not saying everything is perfect. I hate how they rolled it out so slowly and unclearly to (IMO) allow the sales staff to straight up lie for months about what's needed to join the mystery program (of course you need to buy more!). If they do eventually shut down VSN/StarOptions, that will be a big negative. They're still a large greedy company that looks after their shareholders over their customers. But I just think we'll still be able to find sweet spots in the system with the right approach. And I can't say they totally nerfed VSN when all signs say for now (until 2025?) nothing really changes. We'll see!


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## dioxide45 (Aug 30, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> For 2023 - I already rented our WKORV OFD studio for $2800. That means we get 7 days on the OFD 1Bd side for ~$100/nt (assuming $3500 MF)
> 
> Yep… Abound sounds like a deal to us
> (Sarcasm Alert)
> ...


But in your case, VSN isn't beneficial either. You are using your home resort ownership.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 30, 2022)

EasyGoer said:


> If you are a card-carrying dues-paying member in good  standing with VSN as of 8/8/22, your mandatory & voluntary VOI ownership allows you to participate in the Abound program along with your ownership interests as of that date. I believe this has been stated and verified by Brian Miller, CEO of Marriott.


Perhaps you could find the actual quote, instead of believing or guessing. Miller is also not the CEO of Marriott or Marriott Vacations Worldwide


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 30, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> But in your case, VSN isn't beneficial either. You are using your home resort ownership.



Correct. It has always been a downward exchange whether SOs or Abound. My point is it even less value in Abound. 
I’ve actually used the studio side for a 1Bd, but after using the studio last March - I like the wall of windows and May use more if decide not to rent. Options are nice, but don’t see many using their OFD or OFC in Abound (or VSN). Especially OFD with their huge MFs.

We also own WKV (resale) and do use VSN, and plan was to use more but hard to turn down added value by renting.

Personally- I would be happy to not pay the VSN fee and opt out of VSN. Especially because they can charge anything they want for VSN.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EasyGoer (Aug 30, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Perhaps you could find the actual quote, instead of believing or guessing. Miller is also not the CEO of Marriott or Marriott Vacations Worldwide



My bad...Brian Miller is the president of Marriott Vacations Worldwide, not CEO. It's always good to make accurate these fine points.

I sure am glad Tuggers provide proof of everything they say or assert. It helps to avoid confusion and misunderstandings as well. 

*Important Information Regarding Abound by Marriott Vacations™*


The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program) or Club Dues/VSN Network Membership Fees (for Members of the Vistana Signature Network (“VSN”).
Reservations using the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program are expected to be functional and go live in October 2022 for reservations beginning with the 2023 Use Year. Owners will be notified when this capability in Abound is available.
Certain Owners who may be able to opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees but will still be required to pay VSN Network Membership Fees and separate a la carte transaction fees.
Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be given the opportunity to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.

VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible.
VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 30, 2022)

EasyGoer said:


> My bad...Brian Miller is the president of Marriott Vacations Worldwide, not CEO. It's always good to make accurate these fine points.
> 
> I sure am glad Tuggers provide proof of everything they say or assert. It helps to avoid confusion and misunderstandings as well.
> 
> ...


This is no different than the language that is under discussion in much of this thread. 1) we don't know how "enrolled in VSN" is defined. 1) We don't know if there is something more behind "given the opportunity". Why is it not worded like the bullet right above it? Why the need for the additional verbiage about electing and benefit level.

There is also nothing in there about Voluntary ownerships being able to participate in Abound.


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## CPNY (Aug 30, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> This is no different than the language that is under discussion in much of this thread. 1) we don't know how "enrolled in VSN" is defined. 1) We don't know if there is something more behind "given the opportinity. Why is it not worded like the bullet right above it? Why the need for the additional verbiage about electing and benefit level.


CS rep at vistana told me today (after checking with a supervisor) that any VOI that has Star option usage attached to it will be eligible to convert to club points.


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## pchung6 (Aug 30, 2022)

This “given the opportunity” and “opt out” really bother me. We still don’t know what is really behind these words yet.


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## Jayco29D (Aug 30, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> This is no different than the language that is under discussion in much of this thread. 1) we don't know how "enrolled in VSN" is defined. 1) We don't know if there is something more behind "given the opportunity". Why is it not worded like the bullet right above it? Why the need for the additional verbiage about electing and benefit level.
> 
> There is also nothing in there about Voluntary ownerships being able to participate in Abound.



I am sure you already know this but Vistana has different language on their website. They say:

_Access to the benefits of Abound by Marriott Vacations™ starts when you can elect to receive Club Points for your eligible VOI(s).*

* Owners with Vacation Ownership Interests (VOIs) in the Vistana Signature Network that were purchased from the Developer or reseller and are enrolled in the VSN prior to August 9, 2022, will have the option to annually elect to receive Club Points for those VOIs for use in Abound by Marriott Vacations._

So why the difference in wording? In this wording, they more clearly appear to be saying developer purchased and resales in VSN prior to 8/9 are going to be treated the same, right?


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## CPNY (Aug 30, 2022)

pchung6 said:


> This “given the opportunity” and “opt out” really bother me. We still don’t know what is really behind these words yet.


It could mean that mandatory resale owners still pay the VSN dues with the a la carte fees but each year we can elect to convert to club points? Or we pay the abound club dues but ONLY can convert to club dues? maybe we don’t get the interval benefits as well?


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## rcv82 (Aug 30, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> There is also nothing in there about Voluntary ownerships being able to participate in Abound.



It is not obvious why they would let non-requalified mandatory resales participate in Abound and not non-requalified voluntary resales. Possible reasons include:
- They plan to get rid of VSN at some point, and Abound becomes the new “club”. 
- The mandatory properties include some of the best in the system, and they want to get more of them into Abound for exchangers
- They think for some legal reason they need to do this. (There is nothing obvious as to why this would be the case if they keep VSN.)
- They are just making random decisions 
- They really aren’t going to and this is all a big tease
- They recognize mandatory resale purchasers are such a sophisticated group they just can’t resist letting them in the new club

Any other ideas?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CPNY (Aug 30, 2022)

rcv82 said:


> It is not obvious why they would let non-requalified mandatory resales participate in Abound and not non-requalified voluntary resales. Possible reasons include:
> - They plan to get rid of VSN at some point, and Abound becomes the new “club”.
> - The mandatory properties include some of the best in the system, and they want to get more of them into Abound for exchangers
> - They think for some legal reason they need to do this. (There is nothing obvious as to why this would be the case if they keep VSN.)
> ...


Can they really ever get rid of the VSN? It may not be as easy as we think. Deeded week owners have 12-8 months to book their season/week.  They would have to change a lot of legal documents to make that work. It may not be worth it to do. They can starve it making Abound more attractive.

at the end of the day, they want more vistana owners to sell Club Points to. Now it doesn’t matter where they go to buy them. Soon club points will be sold at all locations. I assume the flex plans are no longer being sold?


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## rcv82 (Aug 31, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Can they really ever get rid of the VSN? It may not be as easy as we think. Deeded week owners have 12-8 months to book their season/week. They would have to change a lot of legal documents to make that work. It may not be worth it to do. They can starve it making Abound more attractive.
> 
> at the end of the day, they want more vistana owners to sell Club Points to. Now it doesn’t matter where they go to buy them. Soon club points will be sold at all locations. I assume the flex plans are no longer being sold?



This is just hypocritical. But, I don’t think they would have to change home priority period to do this. You book your home time or deposit into Abound for exchange. The part that would change is there would be no VSN network period under 8 months. This is very similar to how a non-VSN (I.e., voluntary resale) week works now with II. 


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## EasyGoer (Aug 31, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> This is no different than the language that is under discussion in much of this thread. 1) we don't know how "enrolled in VSN" is defined. 1) We don't know if there is something more behind "given the opportunity". Why is it not worded like the bullet right above it? Why the need for the additional verbiage about electing and benefit level.
> 
> There is also nothing in there about Voluntary ownerships being able to participate in Abound.



1.  I don't particularly understand how "enrolled in VSN" can be misconstrued to mean something other than what is being stated unless it taken out of context but I can certainly tell you what it doesn't mean.

2.  If the statement "enrolled in VSN" doesn't mean someone who is a dues paying member in good standing in VSN, then NOBODY is a member. Everyone is eliminated. No one is "given the opportunity" to participate in Abound which is obviously not true.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 31, 2022)

EasyGoer said:


> 1.  I don't particularly understand how "enrolled in VSN" can be misconstrued to mean something other than what is being stated unless it taken out of context but I can certainly tell you what it doesn't mean.
> 
> 2.  If the statement "enrolled in VSN" doesn't mean someone who is a dues paying member in good standing in VSN, then NOBODY is a member. Everyone is eliminated. No one is "given the opportunity" to participate in Abound which is obviously not true.


I am just pointing out the argument people are trying to make here. I don't necessarily agree. Here is how the Exchange Procedures define "VSN Member".

*VSN Member*_ means a member of the Vistana Signature Network who is current in all dues, fees and other amounts owed to the Network Operator and is compliant with the applicable Vistana Signature Network Rules and Regulations governing the reservation and use of Units and Network Resort facilities, as promulgated, adopted, or amended from time to time by Network Operator pursuant to the Network Documents._

Based on that, it would seem that anyone that can reserve in network with VSN is considered a VSN Member and can elect Club Points.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 31, 2022)

rcv82 said:


> It is not obvious why they would let non-requalified mandatory resales participate in Abound and not non-requalified voluntary resales. Possible reasons include:
> - They plan to get rid of VSN at some point, and Abound becomes the new “club”.
> - The mandatory properties include some of the best in the system, and they want to get more of them into Abound for exchangers
> - They think for some legal reason they need to do this. (There is nothing obvious as to why this would be the case if they keep VSN.)
> ...


It seems that they have tied membership in Abound to being a VSN Member. They did this in order to provide all VSN Members/Owners automatic enrollment into Abound. They wanted mass enrollment instead of the process that took place in 2010 when MVC rolled out the DC program and only about 35-40 people signed up in the first year or two. They are closer to if not over 50% now but they had hoped for more. They didn't want to provide an opt-in and instead willing to offer an opt-out. Even for free, many people would still not opt-in.

Since Voluntary owners are not members of VSN, they can't be part of Abound. They could however have offered them the ability to enroll their VOIs in much the same way Marriott did for MVC owners back in 2010. Giving them the opt-in option, but I suspect they will try to offer them options to buy up to Abound membership through requalification.


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## Eric B (Aug 31, 2022)

If one were to read the Abound Exchange Procedures one would be able to see that the sticking point is not whether a mandatory resale week can be exchanged into Abound and receive Club Points.  Instead, it seems to me that the issue is whether they can be used only for Base Exchange Privileges or also for Base Plus Exchange Privileges.  I had posted what I found in that document earlier — the gist of it winds up being whether you can make an exchange outside of 60 days prior to check in.









						Vistana Update from Marriott Insider
					

Wont the owners of those resorts still have the 8 to 12 month booking window?   I should have specified that Marriott fishing for weeks on top of owners booking their weeks. This reinforces the fact to buy where you want to go. And I am going to add: when you want to go (season)




					tugbbs.com
				




See post #147


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## JIMinNC (Aug 31, 2022)

Eric B said:


> If one were to read the Abound Exchange Procedures one would be able to see that the sticking point is not whether a mandatory resale week can be exchanged into Abound and receive Club Points.  Instead, it seems to me that the issue is whether they can be used only for Base Exchange Privileges or also for Base Plus Exchange Privileges.  I had posted what I found in that document earlier — the gist of it winds up being whether you can make an exchange outside of 60 days prior to check in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That exact language on Base Exchange Privileges and Base Plus Exchange Privileges has been in the Marriott Exchange Procedures since the inception of the Destination Club in 2010 and refers only to resale TRUST POINTS that are purchased from an outside broker/reseller and for which the $3/point initiation fee has not been paid. It has never applied to points from enrolled resale weeks.


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## alexadeparis (Aug 31, 2022)

Obviously we are all still guessing to a degree, but I believe the following will occur based on what i know about the MVC 2010 rollout - stay with me here:
1) Developer units (and requaled units of all types that now have star options prior to 8/8) will be "enrolled in Abound" for either free, which is what i believe, or a very modest fee, sub $500.  This is how MVC treated new and resale MVC points purchasers after the rollout. Even with the junk fees, overall its not a bad price, and people still buy resale MVC points.

2) the non requalified mandatorys that have SO use prior to 8/8 that will be given the "opportunity to enroll" will require a fee, probably between $500 and $2,500, per account not per unit. but will then be washed clean and will be full members of Abound. These units are similar in many ways to the holdouts that owned their Marriott weeks pre 2010 that decided never to enroll, in that they have not decided to enroll but could if they chose to spend that money.


3) Whether or not non requaled voluntarys will be allowed in without a new MVC points purchase, my guess is this will only be available with a full blown MVC purchase, kind of like how the Marriott post 2010 weeks are treated today, and the reason i think this is because they are most like the Marriott post 2010 units in form and function - the voluntarys have no SOs, so you either use your home week or trade in II. They were bought knowing that. much like the post 2010 Marriott weeks, and therefore these will be strictly pay to play.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 31, 2022)

alexadeparis said:


> Obviously we are all still guessing to a degree, but I believe the following will occur based on what i know about the MVC 2010 rollout - stay with me here:
> 1) Developer units (and requaled units of all types that now have star options prior to 8/8) will be "enrolled in Abound" for either free, which is what i believe, or a very modest fee, sub $500.  This is how MVC treated new and resale MVC points purchasers after the rollout. Even with the junk fees, overall its not a bad price, and people still buy resale MVC points.
> 
> 2) the non requalified mandatorys that have SO use prior to 8/8 that will be given the "opportunity to enroll" will require a fee, probably between $500 and $2,500, per account not per unit. but will then be washed clean and will be full members of Abound. These units are similar in many ways to the holdouts that owned their Marriott weeks pre 2010 that decided never to enroll, in that they have not decided to enroll but could if they chose to spend that money.
> ...


These are my guesses, I don't think there will a fee for anyone (it has been mentioned by executives that there is no incremental cost). That may only apply to the bulk of their ownership which bought developer, but I don't think so. I think it will be automatic for everyone in VSN. I can say with just about 100% certainty that there is no cost to enroll or become a member of Abound for anyone in VSN, developer or mandatory.

For the mandatory resales that have not been requalified there will be no cost to elect Club Points, but their Abound Owner Benefit Level will be stuck at "Owner", unless they have some other qualified (developer, requal) ownerships whose points or VSN Elite status get them to a higher level. They won't be washed clean. Abound Club Points from non qualified mandatory resales won't count toward Abound OBLs. Kind of like how it works with StarOptions in VSN. 

Mandatory owners can requalify their ownership in VSN and then have their Abound Club Points count toward OBLs. Voluntary resales will always be given the opportunity to requalify their weeks to fully play in VSN and Abound. Cost to be determined (may not be the old $15K+$5K)

The only way to "wash clean" is to requalify in whatever method they provide in the future.


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## Eric B (Aug 31, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> These are my guesses, I don't think there will a fee for anyone (it has been mentioned by executives that there is no incremental cost). That may only apply to the bulk of their ownership which bought developer, but I don't think so. I think it will be automatic for everyone in VSN. I can say with just about 100% certainty that there is no cost to enroll or become a member of Abound for anyone in VSN, developer or mandatory.
> 
> For the mandatory resales that have not been requalified there will be no cost to elect Club Points, but their Abound Owner Benefit Level will be stuck at "Owner", unless they have some other qualified (developer, requal) ownerships whose points or VSN Elite status get them to a higher level. They won't be washed clean. Abound Club Points from non qualified mandatory resales won't count toward Abound OBLs. Kind of like how it works with StarOptions in VSN.
> 
> ...



That would misalign the club dues with the costs because of the lower dues for Owners.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 31, 2022)

Eric B said:


> That would misalign the club dues with the costs because of the lower dues for Owners.


I am not sure what you mean. A pure mandatory resale owner would be Owner level. Thus they would pay the Club Fee that aligns to the Owner level ($230).


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## Eric B (Aug 31, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure what you mean. A pure mandatory resale owner would be Owner level. Thus they would pay the Club Fee that aligns to the Owner level ($230).



but avoid housekeeping fees for more stays.


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## timsi (Aug 31, 2022)

Eric B said:


> but avoid housekeeping fees for more stays.


They'll be paid by the resorts anyway.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 31, 2022)

Eric B said:


> but avoid housekeeping fees for more stays.


True, but this will happen with all members at the Owner level. Most VSN members going to Abound will be at the Owner level, regardless of how they purchased. The Club Fee also does not go toward paying those former a la cart fees. Those will, over time, get saddled back on the maintenance fees in higher maintenance fee line items.


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## emeryjre (Aug 31, 2022)

Just received this latest email from Marriot.  Here is a statement we have been looking for


The Vistana Signature Network® (VSN) is affiliating with the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program. Through your membership in the VSN®, you will have more direct access to Marriott Vacation Club® resorts and thousands of unique travel experiences — all using the shared vacation currency of Club Points.*

Because you’re a member in the VSN, you will be able to elect to receive Club Points in Abound even though your Vacation Ownership Interest (VOI) was not purchased from the Developer, meaning that you will be able to access Abound without an additional purchase. Also, we anticipate you’ll have the future option to convert your VOI(s) to Marriott Bonvoy® points. While we are excited to enhance your ownership with these new usage options, please know that future purchases from an unauthorized reseller will not be eligible to elect to receive Club Points or convert to Marriott Bonvoy points.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 31, 2022)

I won’t be participating, but this seems pretty clear.

“Because you're a member in the VSN,
you will be able to elect to receive Club
Points in Abound even though your
Vacation Ownership Interest (VOl) was
not purchased from the Developer,
meaning that you will be able to access
Abound without an additional
purchase. Also, we anticipate you'll
have the future option to convert your
VOl(s) to Marriott Bonvoy points.
While we are excited to enhance your
ownership with these new usage
options, please know that future
purchases from an unauthorized
reseller will not be eligible to elect to
receive Club Points or convert to
Marriott Bonvoy points.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## YYJMSP (Sep 1, 2022)

i got the exact same email, and all of my weeks are either developer purchased or retro'ed -- i don't like the "even *though *... was not purchased from the Developer", it should be "even *if *... was not purchased from the Developer"


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## DanCali (Sep 1, 2022)

YYJMSP said:


> i got the exact same email, and all of my weeks are either developer purchased or retro'ed -- i don't like the "even *though *... was not purchased from the Developer", it should be "even *if *... was not purchased from the Developer"




I didn't get any email. All mandatory retro + developer


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 1, 2022)

> Just received this latest email from Marriot. Here is a statement we have been looking for



When I see this sentence or a similar sentence, my brain always reads it as, "...is the droid we have been looking for."

I didn't get the email you all received, but my transfer happened on 8/11 so maybe I will be excluded very purposefully from this one.  I don't care because I know why I bought Westin oceanfront, and it wasn't to be in the Marriott Abound.  It would actually be nice to have gotten that email.


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## timsi (Sep 1, 2022)

YYJMSP said:


> i got the exact same email, and all of my weeks are either developer purchased or retro'ed -- i don't like the "even *though *... was not purchased from the Developer", it should be "even *if *... was not purchased from the Developer"


This is the short version. The earlier one was too long, and they had to cut it. It was probably: “even though you did not buy from the developer, and we tried hard to exclude you, our lawyers advised against it so you will be able to access Abound without an additional purchase”.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2022)

I think until we see revised VSN Rules & Regulations, I don't really see how they can even exclude post 8/8 mandatory resales from Abound. Is there anything in the Abound Exchange Procedures permitting it given the affiliation agreement between VSN and Abound? Perhaps they are just trying to see if it will stick and not be challenged on it?


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## Eric B (Sep 1, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I think until we see revised VSN Rules & Regulations, I don't really see how they can even exclude post 8/8 mandatory resales from Abound. Is there anything in the Abound Exchange Procedures permitting it given the affiliation agreement between VSN and Abound? Perhaps they are just trying to see if it will stick and not be challenged on it?



The only piece of it I can see is the ability to limit the owner to Base Exchange Benefits rather than Base Plus Exchange Benefits.  Someone else pointed out that that wording has been in the DC exchange procedures since its inception, though.  No idea if anyone ever challenged that though and they do seem to get away with charging the junk fees on resale trust points.


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## Eric B (Sep 1, 2022)

Hey, since Elite benefits are going away and they're switching to Owner Benefit Levels, does that mean those of us unwashed mandatory resale owners that make it to Presidential level, for example, will get access to the Elite check in desks and the Elite lounges?  Or will the Vistana resorts switch those to owners at those resorts?  Seems like the latter would make more sense - I believe the lounge at WSJ is based on Elite level, but I could be mistaken.


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 1, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Hey, since Elite benefits are going away and they're switching to Owner Benefit Levels, does that mean those of us unwashed mandatory resale owners that make it to Presidential level, for example, will get access to the Elite check in desks and the Elite lounges? Or will the Vistana resorts switch those to owners at those resorts? Seems like the latter would make more sense - I believe the lounge at WSJ is based on Elite level, but I could be mistaken.



Lounge at WSJ???!!!  
You are mistaken…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Eric B (Sep 1, 2022)

In April there was an Elite lounge near where they do the sales pitches.  Not sure about it's history, but I did see it.


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## cubigbird (Sep 1, 2022)

There is an elite lounge at WSJ in the same complex as the main front desk.  It's staffed by 2 concierge staff members to engage guests and fill up the owners updates.  It's basically there because most people arrive by Westin ferry and you check in at STT and they take your bags to your room so they basically get no chance at signing you up for a sales presentation.  They have to have a place for you to come get your "welcome packet."


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> There is an elite lounge at WSJ in the same complex as the main front desk.  It's staffed by 2 concierge staff members to engage guests and fill up the owners updates.


Is it for checkin purposes? They have something similar at Vistana Villages. Any Vistana owner can check in there and it is open all the time to go in for snacks and soft drinks.


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## cubigbird (Sep 1, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Is it for checkin purposes? They have something similar at Vistana Villages. Any Vistana owner can check in there and it is open all the time to go in for snacks and soft drinks.


No.  It has nothing to do with the front desk or check in process.


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## JIMinNC (Sep 1, 2022)

Eric B said:


> The only piece of it I can see is the ability to limit the owner to Base Exchange Benefits rather than Base Plus Exchange Benefits.  Someone else pointed out that that wording has been in the DC exchange procedures since its inception, though.  No idea if anyone ever challenged that though and they do seem to get away with charging the junk fees on resale trust points.



Just remember the terms "Base Exchange Benefits" and "Base Plus Exchange Benefits" have always just referred to Trust Points. Those terms have never directly applied to enrolled weeks that play in the MVC Exchange Company. As I read the new Abound Exchange Procedures, that has not changed.


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 1, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> There is an elite lounge at WSJ in the same complex as the main front desk. It's staffed by 2 concierge staff members to engage guests and fill up the owners updates. It's basically there because most people arrive by Westin ferry and you check in at STT and they take your bags to your room so they basically get no chance at signing you up for a sales presentation. They have to have a place for you to come get your "welcome packet."



This is not a pure Elite lounge - plenty w/o status have used this lounge. Including us and my friends in July (rented from RedWeek) - they were actually allowed to use an empty villa to clean up. They can call it what they want - especially for the Elites. 
Regardless my point stands.
That being… worried about loss of a Elite lounge at a VSN resort, because of a change in MVC terms.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## maph (Dec 27, 2022)

On the 5* early check-in/late checkout front, I attended an owner's update at Kierland in October and asked about this.  The salesperson I had didn't know how that was going to work & found a senior manager there who was 'in the know'.  She told us that going forward all Vistana reservations would be sent to the resort with both the Vistana elite status and the MVC status, and 5* owners would still be given the old privileges.  Well, fast forward to today, a couple months later, and I've checked into WKORVN.  The front desk manager and I had a heated conversation about what I was told & he says that nobody, no matter what their Vistana or MVC status is/was, is getting early check-in or late checkout now or in the future.  Told to take it up with MVC legal department if I wasn't happy about it and kicked me out of the lobby for being loud and argumentative.  More salesman BS.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 27, 2022)

Your problem was believing sale people instead of actual written documentation from Marriott on the change in policy.


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## maph (Dec 28, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Your problem was believing sale people instead of actual written documentation from Marriott on the change in policy.


Well, I have received written documentation from Marriott's reps (reprinted in this thread previously) saying that I as a 5* owner will not be losing any of my benefits, only gaining from the new system.  I shouldn't believe that either?  Sounds like I shouldn't believe anything that anyone at Marriott is saying.


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## DanCali (Dec 28, 2022)

maph said:


> On the 5* early check-in/late checkout front, I attended an owner's update at Kierland in October and asked about this.  The salesperson I had didn't know how that was going to work & found a senior manager there who was 'in the know'.  She told us that going forward all Vistana reservations would be sent to the resort with both the Vistana elite status and the MVC status, and 5* owners would still be given the old privileges.  Well, fast forward to today, a couple months later, and I've checked into WKORVN.  The front desk manager and I had a heated conversation about what I was told & he says that nobody, no matter what their Vistana or MVC status is/was, is getting early check-in or late checkout now or in the future.  Told to take it up with MVC legal department if I wasn't happy about it and kicked me out of the lobby for being loud and argumentative.  More salesman BS.



I had a conversation with a supervisor on the Vistana side about this who was very helpful on a different matter. But on this, he knew immediately what I was talking about and said it really wasn't their call - MVC just decided to gut the VSN Elite program. He tried suggesting that Chairman benefits are just as good, but conceded there is no early checkin, late checkout, or Dec 31 banking. My opinion is that they don't want Chairman club owners hearing another owner who asking for a late checkout or early checkin at a VSN resort due to their 5-Star status, and the 5-Star owner gets it while the Chairman owner who traded there with points doesn't and then gets upset. Not unlike the situation you encountered at WKORVN...

I think it was a mistake on their part to go that route - the 5-Star Elite (and 3-Star and 4-Star) owners paid for those benefits somewhere along the way, and it really should not have been a big deal to leave it in place as a "legacy" benefit for VSN owners making home resort or Staroptions reservations within Vistana. Even if they left it alone, there would be no new VSN Elite members and the population with those benefits would only go down over time.

I do make a point to bring it up every time they offer me a "virtual update" and tell them to contact me when they restore those benefits. If they offer, I do plan to go to owner updates when we're on vacation, but primarily to tell them in person I'm not considering buying anything new from them until these benefits are back. We do what we can with the hand we're dealt...


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## CPNY (Dec 28, 2022)

DanCali said:


> I had a conversation with a supervisor on the Vistana side about this who was very helpful on a different matter. But on this, he knew immediately what I was talking about and said it really wasn't their call - MVC just decided to gut the VSN Elite program. He tried suggesting that Chairman benefits are just as good, but conceded there is no early checkin, late checkout, or Dec 31 banking. My opinion is that they don't want Chairman club owners hearing another owner who asking for a late checkout or early checkin at a VSN resort due to their 5-Star status, and the 5-Star owner gets it while the Chairman owner who traded there with points doesn't and then gets upset. Not unlike the situation you encountered at WKORVN...
> 
> I think it was a mistake on their part to go that route - the 5-Star Elite (and 3-Star and 4-Star) owners paid for those benefits somewhere along the way, and it really should not have been a big deal to leave it in place as a "legacy" benefit for VSN owners making home resort or Staroptions reservations within Vistana. Even if they left it alone, there would be no new VSN Elite members and the population with those benefits would only go down over time.
> 
> I do make a point to bring it up every time they offer me a "virtual update" and tell them to contact me when they restore those benefits. If they offer, I do plan to go to owner updates when we're on vacation, but primarily to tell them in person I'm not considering buying anything new from them until these benefits are back. We do what we can with the hand we're dealt...


Marriott gutted the elite benefits alright! It’s a clear indication on their intentions of what they will do with the whole VSN going forward.


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## DanCali (Dec 28, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Marriott gutted the elite benefits alright! It’s a clear indication on their intentions of what they will do with the whole VSN going forward.



I was paraphrasing him when I said "gutted" (he was a lot more diplomatic about it than me), but that's essentially the outcome...

I suppose, they can try to starve VSN of inventory but I'm not sure why they would think that the resulting angry owners would buy new product after they do that. Happy owners are more inclined to buy more... Let those owners be happy playing in the VSN sandbox and sell them on the other 65+ resorts they can't access from VSN.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 28, 2022)

maph said:


> Well, I have received written documentation from Marriott's reps (reprinted in this thread previously) saying that I as a 5* owner will not be losing any of my benefits, only gaining from the new system.  I shouldn't believe that either?  Sounds like I shouldn't believe anything that anyone at Marriott is saying.


The loss of early checkin and late checkout was communicated as well and is also in this thread previously. I stand by my statement that relying on sales people for information like this that was already communicated is not the way to go. No need to get heated about it at checkin with the front desk manager who really has no control over it.


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## maph (Dec 28, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> The loss of early checkin and late checkout was communicated as well and is also in this thread previously. I stand by my statement that relying on sales people for information like this that was already communicated is not the way to go. No need to get heated about it at checkin with the front desk manager who really has no control over it.


Well, that's one opinion.  My opinion is that he may not have had the ability to do anything about it at the corporate level but he most certainly could have acknowledged that I had been mislead by the sales people and given me the late checkout I requested on a one-time basis, knowing that going forward it wouldn't be an option. These reservations were made 18 months ago, long before Abound ever came into the picture.


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## Eric B (Dec 28, 2022)

maph said:


> Well, that's one opinion.  My opinion is that he may not have had the ability to do anything about it at the corporate level but he most certainly could have acknowledged that I had been mislead by the sales people and given me the late checkout I requested on a one-time basis, knowing that going forward it wouldn't be an option. These reservations were made 18 months ago, long before Abound ever came into the picture.


How would he know that it was a one-time basis thing and that you would be the only one requesting it?


maph said:


> kicked me out of the lobby for being loud and argumentative.


I've been able to get some flexibility in customer service at a lot of places based on being pleasant with the service staff and not making a big stink about things. It even works where there is no policy making allowances for that sort of thing for anyone based on purchase types. I would have to agree that he probably had the ability to make an exception for you and it's possible he would have if the interaction happened differently.

IMHO, the bottom line is that the Elite benefit of late checkout/early check in is no more. I have managed to get early check in when my unit is already available, but have no expectations of it or late checkout even if they know the room service won't be happening until late in the afternoon anyway.


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## SandyPGravel (Dec 28, 2022)

Eric B said:


> In April there was an Elite lounge near where they do the sales pitches.  Not sure about it's history, but I did see it.


Yes, an elite concierge lounge opened this year at WSJ.  I was directed to it in March for the first time.  The concierge desks in the main lobby are still there, but there are also desks with snacks in the elite lounge as well.  They request you only take two snacks/beverages per day.  It was nice, juice, soda chips and coffee available when the lounge is open.  Also had little "trinkets" from local businesses.  Long board was supplying plastic drink cups.  It was nice since the rooms didn't have disposable plastic cups anymore.  Supposedly your room key is what will give you access, but I think that aspect wasn't set up yet when we were there.


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## CPNY (Dec 28, 2022)

DanCali said:


> I was paraphrasing him when I said "gutted" (he was a lot more diplomatic about it than me), but that's essentially the outcome...
> 
> I suppose, they can try to starve VSN of inventory but I'm not sure why they would think that the resulting angry owners would buy new product after they do that. Happy owners are more inclined to buy more... Let those owners be happy playing in the VSN sandbox and sell them on the other 65+ resorts they can't access from VSN.


They can starve the VSN of Harborside inventory since they know those owners will never buy again lol.


maph said:


> Well, that's one opinion.  My opinion is that he may not have had the ability to do anything about it at the corporate level but he most certainly could have acknowledged that I had been mislead by the sales people and given me the late checkout I requested on a one-time basis, knowing that going forward it wouldn't be an option. These reservations were made 18 months ago, long before Abound ever came into the picture.


you bring up a good point. The loss of benefits should have been for reservations beginning in 2024. You made a reservation and travel plans based on your benefits when you booked this 2023 reservation. 

In the end it could have been worse. Vistana could have been purchased by DRI


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## Henry M. (Dec 28, 2022)

> These reservations were made 18 months ago, long before Abound ever came into the picture.


How were you able to make a reservation at a home resort more than 12 months out (8 months out if it was a Staroption reservation)?

Early check-in/late check-out was always based on availability. It didn't work well during busy seasons. I know in Maui we've often had to wait because the rooms were simply not available due to other guests occupying them. One person's late checkout means another's late check-in. I have enjoyed my 5* (and elite hotel benefits)benefits, but I've always viewed them as icing on the cake and not as a God-given right. I'm happy if I get an upgraded room or suite at Marriott hotels, but I'm also satisfied if I get the room type I reserved. I'm also happy at WKORV, where I go pretty often, if I get my room at the published check-in time. Like Eric B, I find being pleasant about requests and not demanding anything usually ends up producing better results than trying to tell the poor front desk staffer DYKWIA and demanding things. My observation is that almost every single time I've seen someone really mad, they've gotten nothing in return and has just resulted in delays for everyone else around them.


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## RunCat (Dec 28, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> Banking wasn't an option back then.  I remember that you had to use all your Star Options or simply deposit into II.  I declined to join SVN for about 8 years before finally joining when they said it would not be offered to me again, in 2008.


Agreed.  The inability to bank was considered a "perk" of the program since it would create a burden on the following years bookings. (increased points without an increase in available rooms).  These past two years, with the lack of availability, has proven, in my mind, that that position was correct.


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## DanCali (Dec 28, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> How were you able to make a reservation at a home resort more than 12 months out (8 months out if it was a Staroption reservation)?



Vistana fixed weeks are booked 18 months out (it sounds like he just checked in so probably a fixed week 51 or 52).



Henry M. said:


> One person's late checkout means another's late check-in.



This is more the risk for hotel 4pm checkouts, which they honor often, and it seems to somehow work.

With 10am checkouts and 4pm checkins at timeshares, giving a small fraction of owners a 2-hour late checkout (noon instead of 10am) doesn't seem to me like it should matter that much. They don't start cleaning all the villas right at 10am, and some owners leaving earlier than 10am should make up for it with correct planning.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 28, 2022)

DanCali said:


> This is more the risk for hotel 4pm checkouts, which they honor often, and it seems to somehow work.


I think the difference here is that hotels generally run lower occupancies than timeshares.  Certainly during peak week 52, I don't see how anyone could expect a late checkout.

I am sure that these late checkouts are a logistical issue. I find resorts in general do very poor planning when it comes to how they schedule cleanings. I find more times than not that the cleaning staff is waiting for me to leave at 10am than my room sitting empty for a while until they come along. I suspect Marriott didn't want to create two classes of owners here in the combined program, and it also eliminates the logistical issues.


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## maph (Dec 28, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> How were you able to make a reservation at a home resort more than 12 months out (8 months out if it was a Staroption reservation)?
> 
> Early check-in/late check-out was always based on availability. It didn't work well during busy seasons. I know in Maui we've often had to wait because the rooms were simply not available due to other guests occupying them. One person's late checkout means another's late check-in. I have enjoyed my 5* (and elite hotel benefits)benefits, but I've always viewed them as icing on the cake and not as a God-given right. I'm happy if I get an upgraded room or suite at Marriott hotels, but I'm also satisfied if I get the room type I reserved. I'm also happy at WKORV, where I go pretty often, if I get my room at the published check-in time. Like Eric B, I find being pleasant about requests and not demanding anything usually ends up producing better results than trying to tell the poor front desk staffer DYKWIA and demanding things. My observation is that almost every single time I've seen someone really mad, they've gotten nothing in return and has just resulted in delays for everyone else around them.


These are event weeks 51 and 52, autobooked at 18 months.  At 12 months out you can add requests to them online.  In the past I have always been given early check-in and checkout without asking for it, whether I need it or not, maybe because they're Friday check-in days. 

This happened the morning after I checked in & there was nobody else at the reception desk or in line behind me, so no, I didn't selfishly keep other people waiting.  Maybe if you had pushed back a bit harder you would have gotten your benefits more often.


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## Eric B (Dec 28, 2022)

SandyPGravel said:


> Yes, an elite concierge lounge opened this year at WSJ.  I was directed to it in March for the first time.  The concierge desks in the main lobby are still there, but there are also desks with snacks in the elite lounge as well.  They request you only take two snacks/beverages per day.  It was nice, juice, soda chips and coffee available when the lounge is open.  Also had little "trinkets" from local businesses.  Long board was supplying plastic drink cups.  It was nice since the rooms didn't have disposable plastic cups anymore.  Supposedly your room key is what will give you access, but I think that aspect wasn't set up yet when we were there.


Nice to have some confirmation on that! We'll give it a try when we're there in April.


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## timsi (Dec 29, 2022)

RunCat said:


> Agreed. The inability to bank was considered a "perk" of the program since it would create a burden on the following years bookings. (increased points without an increase in available rooms). These past two years, with the lack of availability, has proven, in my mind, that that position was correct.


Covid was a 1 in a 100 years even so that does not prove that the position was correct. They scrapped the 2 year banking for Vistnana to make Abound relatively more attractive and the fact that they announced it at the same time with launching Abound should tell you it is not about inventory. They did NOT change Interval for example, you can still use a deposit for 3 years.


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## timsi (Dec 29, 2022)

maph said:


> Well, that's one opinion.  My opinion is that he may not have had the ability to do anything about it at the corporate level but he most certainly could have acknowledged that I had been mislead by the sales people and given me the late checkout I requested on a one-time basis, knowing that going forward it wouldn't be an option. These reservations were made 18 months ago, long before Abound ever came into the picture.


It seems the idea around here is that it is your fault that you have been lied


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## dioxide45 (Dec 29, 2022)

timsi said:


> It seems the idea around here is that it is your fault that you have been lied


Yes they were lied to, but many people like to take certain things from salespeople as truth but dismiss others as lies. Sales is not the source to get this information from when it is all in writing on the website. I am certainly not discounting that sales lied, but sales lies all the time. That part is understood. It is the nature of timeshare.


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## Eric B (Dec 29, 2022)

I'm not going to get too worked up about the changes to the ability to bank SOs (or CPs). I read up on the history of banking SOs provided in this forum before I purchased my first VOI and understand that the ability to bank them didn't exist when the SVN/VSN first started, but was added as an enhancement for elite members, then regular members around the 2011 timeframe. That Amendment of the Network Rules no doubt took place under the allowance of the then current version of section 8.6 of the disclosure guide under the rights of the Network Operator to amend them in its sole discretion, from time to time, without the consent of Network Members, for any purpose, including permitting banking of Vacation Periods and creating Network membership levels. The only limitation on that discretion is as provided in the Resort Documents. My best guess would be that none of the resort documents discuss banking of usage of SOs, which are a network currency - I'm not even going to try to look and see if I can find anything on the subject.


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## timsi (Dec 29, 2022)

Eric B said:


> I'm not going to get too worked up about the changes to the ability to bank SOs (or CPs). I read up on the history of banking SOs provided in this forum before I purchased my first VOI and understand that the ability to bank them didn't exist when the SVN/VSN first started, but was added as an enhancement for elite members, then regular members around the 2011 timeframe. That Amendment of the Network Rules no doubt took place under the allowance of the then current version of section 8.6 of the disclosure guide under the rights of the Network Operator to amend them in its sole discretion, from time to time, without the consent of Network Members, for any purpose, including permitting banking of Vacation Periods and creating Network membership levels. The only limitation on that discretion is as provided in the Resort Documents. My best guess would be that none of the resort documents discuss banking of usage of SOs, which are a network currency - I'm not even going to try to look and see if I can find anything on the subject.


Let me guess: because of your status, your banking was not reduced.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 29, 2022)

timsi said:


> Let me guess: because of your status, your banking was not reduced.


Everyone's banking was reduced in some way. Higher level elites now has a shorter time frame to decide to bank. It is no longer 12/31.


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## timsi (Dec 29, 2022)

@dioxide45 That is an infinitely smaller isue than reducing banking from 24 months to 18 or 12 months.


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## Eric B (Dec 29, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Everyone's banking was reduced in some way. Higher level elites now has a shorter time frame to decide to bank. It is no longer 12/31.


Not mine - I went from being a lowly unwashed resale mandatory VOI owner with the ability to bank for two years as long as I did so by July 1st of the current use year to being a Chairman's Club Member with the ability to bank for two years as long as I do so by October 31st. 





timsi said:


> Let me guess: because of your status, your banking was not reduced.


You are absolutely correct on that. I don't believe it truly matters as it doesn't change the history of how the SVN/VSN/Abound evolved or the benefit of learning as much as you can about how they work. I do try to share what I have been able to figure out about the mechanics of these systems and the other systems I own in here on TUG. I respect the rights of others to vent about perceived injustices or changes in the system, too, though sometimes the venting leads me to ignore the postings that don't seem to add any value to the discussion.


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## cubigbird (Dec 29, 2022)

DanCali said:


> Vistana fixed weeks are booked 18 months out (it sounds like he just checked in so probably a fixed week 51 or 52).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At Westin Lagunamar they are knocking on my door at 9:30am.  In many places they are hitting the cleaning at 10am.  

That said, kindness goes a long way.  Since the new policy, I’ve still gotten an hour or two late check out on all of our stays as 5*/Chairman’s/Whatever it is now.  You just have to ask the front desk, and do it early in your stay.


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## cubigbird (Dec 29, 2022)

timsi said:


> @dioxide45 That is an infinitely smaller isue than reducing banking from 24 months to 18 or 12 months.


This to me is the most major devaluation.  It was our main motivation to hop to 5* from 4*.  We regularly bring friends to holiday timeshare stays and now if someone cancels it changes things.  As others have said, it shows their forward intentions and actions speak louder than words.  Whenever the first words are “if you like what you have, you can use / keep what you have” I am very skeptical.  It means some funny business is to come.  Just look at healthcare.  Remember, “if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor…..”


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## timsi (Dec 29, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Not mine - I went from being a lowly unwashed resale mandatory VOI owner with the ability to bank for two years as long as I did so by July 1st of the current use year to being a Chairman's Club Member with the ability to bank for two years as long as I do so by October 31st.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, they have the right to reduce or even eliminate banking but that doesn’t make it right to say that if you like what you own you can continue to use it as before and change benefits at the same time. This is a gross misrepresentation of the truth, in public statements no less. The reality is that people cannot continue to use exactly what they had, those benefits did not grandfather.


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## cubigbird (Dec 29, 2022)

timsi said:


> Yes, they have the right to reduce or even eliminate banking but that doesn’t make it right to say that if you like what you own you can continue to use it as before and change benefits at the same time. This is a gross misrepresentation of the truth, in public statements no less. The reality is that people cannot continue to use exactly what they had, those benefits did not grandfather.


They should just use the same language airline and hotel programs use when they roll out a major devaluation...."We're pleased to announce exciting new changes."


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 29, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> This to me is the most major devaluation. It was our main motivation to hop to 5* from 4*. We regularly bring friends to holiday timeshare stays and now if someone cancels it changes things. As others have said, it shows their forward intentions and actions speak louder than words. Whenever the first words are “if you like what you have, you can use / keep what you have” I am very skeptical. It means some funny business is to come. Just look at healthcare. Remember, “if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor…..”



Everyone who has come here and asked is it worth buying more from VSE/SVO to go from 3* to 4* to 5* was advised not to proceed.
They should have listened…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## timsi (Dec 29, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> They should just use the same language airline and hotel programs use when they roll out a major devaluation...."We're pleased to announce exciting new changes."


Southwest: we are pleased to announce we have cancelled 1000 more flights today


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## maph (Dec 29, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Yes they were lied to, but many people like to take certain things from salespeople as truth but dismiss others as lies. Sales is not the source to get this information from when it is all in writing on the website. I am certainly not discounting that sales lied, but sales lies all the time. That part is understood. It is the nature of timeshare.


I'm calling BS on this one.  The info posted here and on the MVC website is all backward looking & only reflects decisions that have been made in the past.  Nobody here knows what discussions are going on inside MVC right now.  The only window we have, as bad as it is, is through their sales people and not everything they say is a lie.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 29, 2022)

maph said:


> I'm calling BS on this one.  The info posted here and on the MVC website is all backward looking & only reflects decisions that have been made in the post.  Nobody here knows what discussions are going on inside MVC right now.  The only window we have, as bad as it is, is through their sales people and not everything they say is a lie.


No, there is a complete list of FAQ on the Vistana website with all the information that you need. The exchange procedures are all there. The problem is that people don't want to take the time to read through it.


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## Eric B (Dec 29, 2022)

maph said:


> I'm calling BS on this one.  The info posted here and on the MVC website is all backward looking & only reflects decisions that have been made in the post.  Nobody here knows what discussions are going on inside MVC right now.  The only window we have, as bad as it is, is through their sales people and not everything they say is a lie.



Like it or not, the only thing we can truly rely on is what they put in writing. There are the items in your contract, the disclosure guide, resort documents, etc. Alternatively, you can believe what the sales staff says; not everything they say is a lie, after all. The difficulty is figuring out what parts are.


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## David Yuan (Dec 29, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> At Westin Lagunamar they are knocking on my door at 9:30am.  In many places they are hitting the cleaning at 10am.
> 
> That said, kindness goes a long way.  Since the new policy, I’ve still gotten an hour or two late check out on all of our stays as 5*/Chairman’s/Whatever it is now.  You just have to ask the front desk, and do it early in your stay.


Yes!!!, they knocked on my door at 933am...as we were leaving at 10am exact, I can see about ~20 housekeeping carts going all over the place : )


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## maph (Dec 29, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Like it or not, the only thing we can truly rely on is what they put in writing. There are the items in your contract, the disclosure guide, resort documents, etc. Alternatively, you can believe what the sales staff says; not everything they say is a lie, after all. The difficulty is figuring out what parts are.


How do you know that it's a lie if you don't test it?  If I had posted here that they had told me resorts would be tracking both elite status and MVC status when you checkin, could you have said to me they're lying?  Yeah, they're probably lying but maybe not.  Now we all know.


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## Eric B (Dec 29, 2022)

maph said:


> How do you know that it's a lie if you don't test it?  If I had posted here that they had told me resorts would be tracking both elite status and MVC status when you checkin, could you have said to me they're lying?  Yeah, they're probably lying but maybe not.  Now we all know.


You don’t. My real concern is what is enforceable and I have grounds to complain about. The rest of it is all good if it works for the local staff and they will do it if I ask with a smile. This works beyond timesharing, too….


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## maph (Dec 29, 2022)

Eric B said:


> You don’t. My real concern is what is enforceable and I have grounds to complain about. The rest of it is all good if it works for the local staff and they will do it if I ask with a smile. This works beyond timesharing, too….


Deep. Thanks for sharing!


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 29, 2022)

David Yuan said:


> Yes!!!, they knocked on my door at 933am...as we were leaving at 10am exact, I can see about ~20 housekeeping carts going all over the place : )



At WMH recently, they offered us 3000 BV points to check out by 9am.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45 (Dec 30, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Not mine - I went from being a lowly unwashed resale mandatory VOI owner with the ability to bank for two years as long as I did so by July 1st of the current use year to being a Chairman's Club Member with the ability to bank for two years as long as I do so by October 31st.


I guess I should have quantified by "everyone" comment being those that were promised such benefits through Elite status. If you had some type of Elite status in VSN, everyone took some kind of hit when it came to banking; either the deadline to bank or the date you could bank through.

It does seem though that mandatory resale owners (unqualified), by far, came out of this whole thing with the most to gain.


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