# My Dinner With Bellehavens.. Any Questions?



## NeilGoBlue (Sep 17, 2007)

Stan Bonnemort, director of sales for Bellehavens is coming to Maryland this week and we are going out to dinner on Friday.  

Do you have any questions that you want me to ask?

Let me know, and I'll then post the answers over the weekend.


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## PerryM (Sep 17, 2007)

*Puttin' on the Ritz....*



NeilGoBlue said:


> Stan Bonnemort, director of sales for Bellehavens is coming to Maryland this week and we are going out to dinner on Friday.
> 
> Do you have any questions that you want me to ask?
> 
> Let me know, and I'll then post the answers over the weekend.




I'd like to know how a major player, like the Ritz-Carlton would impact the DC industry - what are there thoughts.  They must have some scenarios to account for this eventual invasion of heavy hitters like St. Regis.

I've decided to totally bypass all the DC's who have less than 5,000 members and wait for a major player.  (That would be ALL the DC's combined)

My gut feeling is that such a major player would kill off the bottom 50% in short order and only one or two of the top would survive.  I pity the members trying to sell their memberships.

But this is just a wild guess on my part, but has enough of a ring that I'm waiting for the Ritz.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 17, 2007)

and youre already a member. hes buying? classy 

personally, it seems to me that lux chains are liking fractionals - just as their clients do. especially now that theyre increasing their margins above market value. (like little nell) if you want an investment, that certainly seems like a better route to me. (*luxury* fractionals and hotel residences / condohotel / etc)

and look at aman ending up not linking up with setai club.

now if setai does follow through and allow unlimited usage for free at all properties once they have a 2nd one, that would be the first real fractional/DC hybrid.

and banyan tree private collection is pretty much like a DC, charging ~$100K/$3K per week. i dont think anyone else shares their residential model either. wonder if anyone is watching them.. or even more i wonder how both models are working for them.

it also matters whether you want condos or villas.. aman is pretty much all villas. same with banyan tree. setai is right now a hotel, but theyre looking at quite a few villas i believe, like many ghm properties. chains like FS, RC, MO have less villas.

im waiting because 3 of the 4 clubs im watching dont have beach properties yet, and id also like to maximize use of the club as soon as i sign up.

edit 1 >
someone here said RC does have unlimited space available reservations where you can either "exchange" your fractional nights into other locations or pay $250/nt for additional nights. not a terrible rate, certainly a lot better than many DCs charge for additional nights. only DHH is close @ $300.

also, 3 of the 4 clubs im watching have membership/property caps. it wasnt something i really looked at, but i do kind of like it.. it is fairly significant that the club has based their business model on a specific numerical goal. so they will profit X once reaching that cap - and then increasing by X over X time, etc. and theyre satisfied with that. it seems like the potential for customer service is better IMHO, not just because youre limiting the number of members, but also because they are demonstrating they are not simply trying to sign as many people / make as much profit as possible - there is a quality assurance aspect - like other limited "clubs" or service oriented things like concierges etc. limits can have real benefits. OTOH if ER selected their properties a little differently than they currently do, i WOULD be more interested in them.. (either now, or just watching them for the future) even though their usage isnt as good as some others, the number of properties could be an advantage.

st regis is also not DC-like, only allowing exchanges, including to starwood points. IIRC fairmont actually allows hotel exchanges by the week, allowing 2 or 3 of your 5 total weeks to be used that way, or something like that. then some other chains > MO's residences are particularly expensive. Peninsula has very few locations, no villas, no residences. waldorf astoria is coming out with fractionals at lake las vegas and residences in vegas. now *rosewood* might be an interesting possibility.. they have a numer of residences, i believe both condo and villa style. and while las ventanas are very expensive i believe, the others might be more reasonable. one other that comes to mind is orient express, which seems a little more like an alliance than a chain.

edit 2 >
 a rosewood entity might also open up the possibility of other ty warner properties being involved, like four seasons new york..

edit 3 >
actual *questions* for bellehavens =
- upcoming destinations/properties? 
- what kind of things do they look at when selecting destinations/properties? 
- do they have total appreciation numbers right now for their portfolio / are they willing to make them public if they do? 
- what do they think of helium report, sherpa report, this forum?  general thoughts on DC industry?
- their thoughts on REIT structure for DCs?


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## NeilGoBlue (Sep 20, 2007)

Perry,

I got your question on my list...

Any other questions?.. last chance... dinner is friday night..


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## LTTravel (Sep 22, 2007)

NeilGoBlue said:


> Perry,
> 
> I got your question on my list...
> 
> Any other questions?.. last chance... dinner is friday night..



Did you get any interesting info at dinner?


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## NeilGoBlue (Sep 22, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> Did you get any interesting info at dinner?



A couple items... 

The number 1 thing inhibiting members from joining Bellehavens is lack of destination choice.  So they are actively trying to grow their destinations through various means.  

The number one way they want to grow is through a merger or takeover.  They feel that is the fastest way to increase their destination base.  They are targeting clubs with not much debt, and then bring in an equity partner to payoff the debt, so that it fits with Bellehavens Model.

Regarding Perry's question.   They don't know if a big competitor will enter the market or not. They welcome it, because they think it will bring legitamacy (sp?) to the industry.


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## LTTravel (Sep 22, 2007)

NeilGoBlue said:


> A couple items...
> 
> The number 1 thing inhibiting members from joining Bellehavens is lack of destination choice.  So they are actively trying to grow their destinations through various means.
> 
> ...



Interesting. I agree that the two major appeals of ER, which has a wait list and other clubs are struggling to get new members, are the selection of homes and destinations, and the financial security. But to beat a dead horse, one should check their fine print to see how expensive they can really get, so you are paying for the selection and security, and for some, you get what you pay for. There are not that many DC's at the $2 million home level. Maybe  Bellehavens will also merge with UR/PE and enter the middle tier. So UR/PE/HCC/BH merger, membership of 1700 to try to compete with Goliath. But their models are different so merger will be tricky. Quintess appears to be doing reasonably well as a more boutique alternative to ER. Lusso I think is a great club and will hopefully bust out soon. It has also been hurt by the limited destinations and financial fear factor also. But neither of these are in the $2 million range. I am not that familiar with Portofino, but that may be another option for BH. The Canadian and European DC's are not a good match. I think that there will be continued consolidation and changes ahead.


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## NeilGoBlue (Sep 22, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> Interesting. I agree that the two major appeals of ER, which has a wait list and other clubs are struggling to get new members, are the selection of homes and destinations, and the financial security. But to beat a dead horse, one should check their fine print to see how expensive they can really get, so you are paying for the selection and security, and for some, you get what you pay for. There are not that many DC's at the $2 million home level. Maybe  Bellehavens will also merge with UR/PE and enter the middle tier. So UR/PE/HCC/BH merger, membership of 1700 to try to compete with Goliath. But their models are different so merger will be tricky. Quintess appears to be doing reasonably well as a more boutique alternative to ER. Lusso I think is a great club and will hopefully bust out soon. It has also been hurt by the limited destinations and financial fear factor also. But neither of these are in the $2 million range. I am not that familiar with Portofino, but that may be another option for BH. The Canadian and European DC's are not a good match. I think that there will be continued consolidation and changes ahead.




A couple responses...

1) Even though Bellehavens is a 2MM club currently, they have announced that they are moving towards a 3MM club (between 2MM and 3MM)  That announcement was a critical factor in my decision to join.

I absolutely agree with you the the devil is in the fine print.  And I was shocked to hear on this board recently that ER's MF can jump to whatever in 10 years.  I think down the road people might regret joining them.

I found no 'devil' in Bellehaven's details. I looked hard.  I was ready to fight.  LOL, but didn't find any.

2) He made mention that Portofino is not interested in merging.

3) Bellehaven's has talked about multiple tiers, but have discarded that idea.. They don't want to create 'tiers' of customers, where some are more important than others.

4) Bellehavens has doubled their size in the last year.  They might have not grown as fast as some, but doubling in a year is good.


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## PerryM (Sep 23, 2007)

*Mooo...*



NeilGoBlue said:


> A couple items...
> 
> The number 1 thing inhibiting members from joining Bellehavens is lack of destination choice.  So they are actively trying to grow their destinations through various means.
> 
> ...



Donald Trump is now into high quality steakes - Mooo.  I thought Allen Brothers was expensive The Donald puts those folks to shame.

I would not think it out of the question for him to have one of his Apprentices from TV start a DC and take over the entire industry.  Who would not want to have a Trump DC?  These would be $10 M condos/homes and is exactly what all those folks who consider $400k "pocket change" want - a name brand DC to throw around at the next dinner party.

As a person who builds and studies systems (stock) I am constantly amazed at how folks get used to the status quo and then get blown out of the water when a perfectly logical variant gets introduced that they should have known would enter the system at some point.

A name brand DC is just going to happen - we all know it.  What will that do to the DC industry?  My guess is to dominate it and cause at least 50% of the DC to merge into just a few remaining companies that can try to compete against a household name like Donald.

So be careful what you Moo for you might just get it.

P.S.
Look at Donald's Steak web site and think of how long it would take him to replace "Steak" with "Destination Club" and buy 50 residences - 1 month?  The Donald wouldn't even get involved - someone would present him with a complete package on how to take over that industry and he would simply sign a document and it would happen.

We are in Stowe Vermont today at the Trapp Family Lodge watching the leaves turn-it's just fantastic.  (They have wild turkeys running around everywhere; I feel right at home )  We went into Stowe last night and drove around and of course there were no name brand companies within the city limits - no MC Donalds, no Red Lobster, no Wal-Mart, no Lowes, no Ruth's Chris, just the local yokels who have the ear of the local politicians to keep the name brands out of town.  There is no such a thing for the DC industry - just local yokels.

The more I think about the DC's status quo the more I worry.  Maybe I'm the only one worrying about this stuff - but don't say someone didn't warn you guys.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 23, 2007)

If Donald ever entered the DC business, I think he could quickly cause a disruption as he has ties to so many upscale properties and golf clubs, casinos, etc.

Just visit www.trump.com and view his portfolio.

I noticed that Donald sells "Trump Ice"...I wonder how many Eskimos buy this product?

Check out his travel web site www.gotrump.com

If I was a ER/UR/PE, I would be more afraid of Trump starting a DC than Marriott as he could get 10,000 people to join his club for $250-750k and take over the industry.

Donald would price his product much higher than everyone else, thus a club like HCC would actually benefit by this scenario and BH would benefit as I doubt Donald would ever incorporate revenue sharing.


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## LTTravel (Sep 23, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> If I was a ER/UR/PE, I would be more afraid of Trump starting a DC than Marriott as he could get 10,000 people to join his club for $250-750k and take over the industry.



If he were to run it anything like he ran his casinos in Atlantic City, they (the other DC's) have nothing to worry about. A repeat of Tanner and Haley.


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## vineyarder (Sep 23, 2007)

*Trump Steaks*



> Donald Trump is now into high quality steakes - Mooo. I thought Allen Brothers was expensive The Donald puts those folks to shame.
> 
> I would not think it out of the question for him to have one of his Apprentices from TV start a DC and take over the entire industry. Who would not want to have a Trump DC? These would be $10 M condos/homes and is exactly what all those folks who consider $400k "pocket change" want - a name brand DC to throw around at the next dinner party.



Yes, Just the way his entry into steaks has decimated the meat industry; it is no longer possible to buy a steak at Costco or Publix since 'The Donald' started selling them...


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## Bourne (Sep 23, 2007)

A big name hotel chain/s is/are bound to enter the DC market once it matures. When is still up for grabs. It took them 15-20 years to enter the timeshare market. 

The impact would be on the "middle tier" DCs like ER/UR. Companies like Yellowstone Club on one end and HCC on the other end are way off the center and would not be negatively impacted. 

That said, this is not going to be a cakewalk for FS, RC of the world either. They are competing against compaines like ER/UR/BH/HCC who are small well run companies that can turn on a dime. 

Risk vs Reward. Pick your sweet spot.


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## travelguy (Sep 23, 2007)

And let's remember what happened when the first BIG hotel company entered the timeshare market.  Marriott entered the timeshare market on Hilton Head Island in the early '80s and immediately created the number one most profitable timeshare market for all the other smaller timeshare companies!


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## PerryM (Sep 23, 2007)

*Ahhh, that Golden Goose smells good...*



vineyarder said:


> Yes, Just the way his entry into steaks has decimated the meat industry; it is no longer possible to buy a steak at Costco or Publix since 'The Donald' started selling them...



There is a price point for any product/service - Trump goes after the very top and then exceeds it.  As Bill said look at this site.

Just think of all the foreclosures that Trump must get in a year at all those properties - he can throw them into a DC and in days get all the money for them.  Then many years later return probably 70% of it on a 5 in/1 out type of basis.

Those folks with $400k as "Pocket Change" will give Trump a serious look - I don't think it would take him long to add 500 properties of his own inventory and get 5,000 DC members in a few short years.

The few barriers to entry into the DC market are already owned by Trump - thousands of residences scattered around the world and the muscle to dominate and the thirst to do it too.

The best thing is he doesn't have to put up ONE penny and then they pay him rent to use the DC's - what mogul would pass up such a golden goose?  And all the while he still owns the residences and gets ALL the appreciation for his kids....  What a deal!!


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## vineyarder (Sep 23, 2007)

> There is a price point for any product/service - Trump goes after the very top and then exceeds it. As Bill said look at this site.
> 
> Just think of all the foreclosures that Trump must get in a year at all those properties - he can throw them into a DC and in days get all the money for them. Then many years later return probably 70% of it on a 5 in/1 out type of basis.
> 
> ...



I agree completely... but I still don't see how this would 'decimate' the industry; OTOH it would be more likely to energize / legitimize the industry, and the DCs at other price points would likely benefit from the publicity and all the people that can't afford the Trump DC...


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## PerryM (Sep 23, 2007)

vineyarder said:


> I agree completely... but I still don't see how this would 'decimate' the industry; OTOH it would be more likely to energize / legitimize the industry, and the DCs at other price points would likely benefit from the publicity and all the people that can't afford the Trump DC...



Good grief, look at the cost to join these things and the annual MF - all but HCC should feel heat from a Trump or a Name Brand.  All are paying $200k at least to join for a no-name.

I'd rather own a name-brand than a club with 100 or less members.  I'd guess it would be ER then Trump with HCC picking up the folks who want to pay less than $200k to join.

This to me would mean massive mergers to the point of maybe 5 DC's left- a definition of Decimating the industry.

But that's just the reason I'm waiting - I don't know anymore than you guys, nor do I pretend to.

An abundance of caution is not unreasonable when plunking down $200k+ even if its just "Pocket Change".

P.S.
When one DC merges with another DC there is going to be a price paid by the loser - in one shape or another.


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## pwrshift (Sep 23, 2007)

I seems like every month I get a DC announcement of a price increase -- just like we got on TS sales years ago -- so buy now! As these membership prices crowd in on half a million dollars (some are more already) they are setting themselves up for a great big fall IMO. At this rate, it will cost $1 million to join ER in a couple of years and you'd still have no equity.

Perhaps they feel they are pricing themselves out of the RC FS Trump arena and feel that they'd have to enter at even higher prices. But what if they didn't ... and what if they entered the market with equity membership fees that were considerably less? Public companies - security - equity - reputation - and clout. All the things that could force ER members to second guess what they've done.

It bothers me that a company like ER 'allows' you to join but not own ... and to give ER your money so 'they' can build $10 billion worth of RE in which you can only use - perhaps for 10 years if you don't quit before then. People in this net-worth league are not stupid - many of them worked for every dime they made and aren't just going to turn it over to Steve Case to pay his heirs.

You don't have to be the most expensive DC in the market to win, but you do have to be the best. Right now there are too many and that's heading to a lot of turmoil over the next few years. RCC sells their fractionals for up to $800k and they already have 3,000 members in their 5 or 6 locations -- this may be the sleeping giant. JMHO

Brian


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## LTTravel (Sep 23, 2007)

pwrshift said:


> It bothers me that a company like ER 'allows' you to join but not own ...
> Brian



You are looking at DC's the wrong way (though an equity club would be better) What has allowed ER to grow so fast is the fact that they own all the properties. With all their marketing, expenses, payrolls, etc, I wouldn't be surprised if they are not in the black yet, and all the profits are in the end. This allows Case to invest more money into the developments knowing that it is his. 
You must look at a DC as purely an easy *vacation*, and you are paying for it. What are the alternatives for someone with a net worth of $5-$10 million who wants to vacation. You can book at a 5 star like Ritz or 4-Seasons and book two or three rooms, have the concierge at the hotel arrange all the local activities and you still have to arrange all the other flight, car rental, transfers yourself. You can't really invite friends to join you unless they are willing to pay the daily rates at the hotels or you are going to pay for the extra rooms. An alternative is to go on VRBO.com or one of the other sites and book home for yourself. Again, this is going to take time. And do you feel comfortable sending someone you don't know $10,000 or more. And you may be hit or miss with the home itself. Or you can plunk down $3 million for a second home. With it you pay all the taxes, maintenance, etc. You have to find someone to go in and check out your house when you are not there. You have to decorate it, and spend several hours cleaing it up everytime you go or leave the home. Sure, you get to enjoy the appreciation in value, but after taxes, maintenance, interest payments, insurance (do you know what hurricaine insurance goes for these days?) The time lost enjoying yourself and spent working on this. Is it worth it? and what if the real estate market where you bought has a downturn? And you only get to go to one place, not 20 or 40 different places. And you have no one to complain to if something goes wrong besides yourself. This argument is made time and time again by the DC's themselves, and they are correct. If you are making $1million or more  per year, time is money and the time you waist doing all this you could be making more money to more than offset the potential capital gains. (Estimates for a $3million home: $150,000 (at 5%), $30,000.yr in taxes, $10-15,000/yr in association dues, $6,000/yr in utilities, $10-$20,000/yr in insurance, depreciation of furniture, etc, etc, etc.- maybe you want to make up for this by renting it out when you are not there. Are you sure you have the time or the patience or the guts for that?) THIS IS NOT AN INVESTMENT. You are plunking down about $400,000(and getting $320,000 back) and paying yearly fees to use multiple $3million dollar homes with no effort. Studies have shown that the average person uses a second home about 28 days per year. So for those people, this club membership (not investment) is a bargain. It is not for everybody.


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## PerryM (Sep 23, 2007)

*is it an asset or expense.....*



LTTravel said:


> You are looking at DC's the wrong way (though an equity club would be better) What has allowed ER to grow so fast is the fact that they own all the properties. With all their marketing, expenses, payrolls, etc, I wouldn't be surprised if they are not in the black yet, and all the profits are in the end. This allows Case to invest more money into the developments knowing that it is his.
> You must look at a DC as purely an easy *vacation*, and you are paying for it. What are the alternatives for someone with a net worth of $5-$10 million who wants to vacation. You can book at a 5 star like Ritz or 4-Seasons and book two or three rooms, have the concierge at the hotel arrange all the local activities and you still have to arrange all the other flight, car rental, transfers yourself. You can't really invite friends to join you unless they are willing to pay the daily rates at the hotels or you are going to pay for the extra rooms. An alternative is to go on VRBO.com or one of the other sites and book home for yourself. Again, this is going to take time. And do you feel comfortable sending someone you don't know $10,000 or more. And you may be hit or miss with the home itself. Or you can plunk down $3 million for a second home. With it you pay all the taxes, maintenance, etc. You have to find someone to go in and check out your house when you are not there. You have to decorate it, and spend several hours cleaing it up everytime you go or leave the home. Sure, you get to enjoy the appreciation in value, but after taxes, maintenance, interest payments, insurance (do you know what hurricaine insurance goes for these days?) The time lost enjoying yourself and spent working on this. Is it worth it? and what if the real estate market where you bought has a downturn? And you only get to go to one place, not 20 or 40 different places. And you have no one to complain to if something goes wrong besides yourself. This argument is made time and time again by the DC's themselves, and they are correct. If you are making $1million or more  per year, time is money and the time you waist doing all this you could be making more money to more than offset the potential capital gains. (Estimates for a $3million home: $150,000 (at 5%), $30,000.yr in taxes, $10-15,000/yr in association dues, $6,000/yr in utilities, $10-$20,000/yr in insurance, depreciation of furniture, etc, etc, etc.- maybe you want to make up for this by renting it out when you are not there. Are you sure you have the time or the patience or the guts for that?) THIS IS NOT AN INVESTMENT. You are plunking down about $400,000(and getting $320,000 back) and paying yearly fees to use multiple $3million dollar homes with no effort. Studies have shown that the average person uses a second home about 28 days per year. So for those people, this club membership (not investment) is a bargain. It is not for everybody.




This is really the old old question: is a DC and investment or and expense?
(Same for timeshares)

Well if it’s an investment you want to participate in appreciation, if it’s an expense you want ever falling prices.

There are only two DC’s that allow members to participate in appreciation, Bellehavens is one.

So by definition most DC’s are expenses and the cost and risk of making an unsecured loan to a tiny DC is part of the expense.

If losing $50k - $1 M is no big deal to you then a DC is something to consider.

However, don’t think for a second that thousands of smart guys/gals aren’t looking at this great scheme to cook up something even better.  DC’s are about 10 years old.

I, for one, want my cake (vacations) and eat it too (real estate appreciation).  My problem is that getting into the DC market is so easy that we are in for a lot of tumult ahead - a lot of it.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 23, 2007)

perry, what is it that makes you not interested in equity DCs?


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## PerryM (Sep 23, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> perry, what is it that makes you not interested in equity DCs?




I love the idea of an equity based DC but I am absolutely convinced that a major player will severely impact the DC industry and really am waiting for 1) Cheap DC $30k or so or 2) a major name, like a hotel chain, to buy into.

Just because BelleHavens is equity based does not mean that demand for it could shrivel up when a house hold name enters the DC field.  That 3 in/1 out could be a killer.

One thing I've learned about investing/buying things - don't chase price.  Pick your terms and wait for someone to match them or go on to the next investment/item.


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 23, 2007)

PerryM said:


> I love the idea of an equity based DC but I am absolutely convinced that a major player will severely impact the DC industry and really am waiting for 1) Cheap DC $30k or so or 2) a major name, like a hotel chain, to buy into.
> 
> .



I don't see a major name hotel entering the DC market at a low price like 
$30K unless the properties are very small condos.  Most DC buyers are looking for larger 3-4 bedroom luxury properties in the best locations.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 23, 2007)

Perry is looking for an either or situation.

1. Join a cheap DC for $30k....(ie HCC)
2. Join a name brand for $100k or more

Perry has proven that he WILL spend the big bucks for a property he believes in...but he has also shown how to travel in style for pennies on the dollar. He is truly a Dr. Jeckly and Mr. Hyde when it comes to travel.


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## PerryM (Sep 23, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Perry is looking for an either or situation.
> 
> 1. Join a cheap DC for $30k....(ie HCC)
> 2. Join a name brand for $100k or more
> ...



Frugal is my attitude towards everything.  Not cheap, but the maximum usage of the dollars Uncle Sam lets me keep.

Also, I am an investor/owner versus a renter.

I know that owning a car makes sense if you keep it until it falls apart, probably the same with an RV or Jet or anything that depreciates fast.  Buying something that has depreciated a lot, like a used car, makes a lot of sense too.

But that's just my outlook on money.


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 24, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Frugal is my attitude towards everything.  Not cheap, but the maximum usage of the dollars Uncle Sam lets me keep.
> 
> Also, I am an investor/owner versus a renter.
> 
> ...



Would fractional ownership be an option?  You would own the deed, the property would benefit from appreciation, and you could trade through the Registry Collection, etc.

Anyone have experience with trading through the Registry Collection?  If it's flexibly you could have many of the advantages of a DC with the benefits/security of ownership.


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## travelguy (Sep 24, 2007)

*Frugal AND Luxurious*



PerryM said:


> Frugal is my attitude towards everything.  Not cheap, but the maximum usage of the dollars Uncle Sam lets me keep.
> 
> Also, I am an investor/owner versus a renter.
> 
> ...



My version of Frugal is also with luxury.  I typically buy a top-end Benz with 6-9 months use (less than 10K miles) for cash and keep it until a year after the model change.  This allows me a new, top model car without a large chunk of the depreciation and no financing costs.  My wife "requires" BMWs of equal value but that's a whole other story.  

Some of us are frugal BUT still want top-tier.  We just know how to purchase correctly.  Wealth is achieved in direct proportion of income to expense.  Spending less equals less income need equals more vacation time!


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## PerryM (Sep 24, 2007)

travelguy said:


> My version of Frugal is also with luxury.  I typically buy a top-end Benz with 6-9 months use (less than 10K miles) for cash and keep it until a year after the model change.  This allows me a new, top model car without a large chunk of the depreciation and no financing costs.  My wife "requires" BMWs of equal value but that's a whole other story.
> 
> Some of us are frugal BUT still want top-tier.  We just know how to purchase correctly.  Wealth is achieved in direct proportion of income to expense.  Spending less equals less income need equals more vacation time!



This is why timeshares still offer me the maximum vacation for the minimum money and risk.  We do own a fractional unit and utilize it all the time.

Maybe that will change in the future but I really enjoy staying at what would be 3 Diamond AAA resorts, like a Marriott, for Motel 6 prices.  It really puts a huge smile on me every vacation.

I'd like to move to 4 Diamonds and pay 1 Diamond rates - that's why I still have interest in DCs since they allow for this.  It's the security of my deposit that has me holding back which gets back to the DC industry which I believe is built on a house of cards.


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## vivalour (Sep 24, 2007)

PerryM said:


> It's the security of my deposit that has me holding back which gets back to the DC industry which I believe is built on a house of cards.



We're talking about this point before taking the plunge into  DCs and wondering about how much leveraging these clubs do when adding properties, esp. PE & UR which we find very appealing. My husband or I may go to a  presentation to get a feel for the folks who run the show at PE. UR has something on their web site about the security aspect. Kind of vague though...


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## PerryM (Sep 24, 2007)

vivalour said:


> We're talking about this point before taking the plunge into  DCs and wondering about how much leveraging these clubs do when adding properties, esp. PE & UR which we find very appealing. My husband or I may go to a  presentation to get a feel for the folks who run the show at PE. UR has something on their web site about the security aspect. Kind of vague though...



When I cost out DC's compared to the great vacations we get with timeshares I must account for the loss of ALL the security deposit AND 5 years of forced MFs.

By doing this I account for the simple fact that I am giving the DC an unsecured loan to folks I've not met and have so little regard for me that they won't make an effort to protect my money.  That's the status quo of the DC market now.

Additionally, if the DC market goes thru massive upheavals either due to bad news/events or just one set of greedy folks devouring another set of greed folks then I might not be allowed out of the DC for many years and be forced to pay the MFs.

The DC industry should get together and buy an insurance policy to cover 200 or so refundable deposits and this would provide some protection.  The other item would be that I can only be made to pay for 6 months of MFs after I want out and then the insurance kicks in to refund my money.

These seem simple solutions that would get me really excited with DCs.

However, the DC market seems to be chugging along just fine without these so I will have to wait for a name-brand that would want to protect its reputation and refund my "investment".

But that's just why I'm not a DC member now, someday I probably will be.


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 24, 2007)

PerryM said:


> However, the DC market seems to be chugging along just fine without these so I will have to wait for a name-brand that would want to protect its reputation and refund my "investment".
> .



That is the key point.  If the DC market is chugging along just fine, they have no incentive at this time to implement costly and time consuming changes.  This could easily change in the future.


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## PerryM (Sep 24, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> That is the key point.  If the DC market is chugging along just fine, they have no incentive at this time to implement costly and time consuming changes.  This could easily change in the future.



Status quo for a business is a dilemma - do you go out of your way to change it?

I remember back in the early 1970s where every GM car was stamped out of the same frame - just the interior fabric material and the hood ornament separated a Oldsmobile from a Cadillac.  Then I took a test drive in a small car called a Toyota and have never bought anything else since.

For a 10 year old industry, status quo can be a killer.


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## vivalour (Sep 24, 2007)

PerryM said:


> I took a test drive in a small car called a Toyota and have never bought anything else since.
> For a 10 year old industry, status quo can be a killer.



True, but hot competition usually stimulates changes for the better. I'm optimistic that some sorts of consumer protection will come sooner than later, although terms maybe still not as "secure" as we might like. On the subject of cars, you may want to try a Honda one day if you get tired of your Toyota. We get top of the line Hondas and they last forever  -- even in the brutal Canadian winters.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 24, 2007)

I prefer my Acura RL and my wife loved her Acura MDX...great cars!


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 24, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Status quo for a business is a dilemma - do you go out of your way to change it?
> 
> I remember back in the early 1970s where every GM car was stamped out of the same frame - just the interior fabric material and the hood ornament separated a Oldsmobile from a Cadillac.  Then I took a test drive in a small car called a Toyota and have never bought anything else since.
> 
> For a 10 year old industry, status quo can be a killer.



Come on...it's all about competition.  Automobile, telecommunications, healthcare...very little changes to benefit the consumer until there is legitimate competition.  The competion will heat up in the DC industry and there will be changes...we just don't know when.

I'll take a Honda over a Toyota.


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## PerryM (Sep 24, 2007)

*80/20...*



GOLFNBEACH said:


> Come on...it's all about competition.  Automobile, telecommunications, healthcare...very little changes to benefit the consumer until there is legitimate competition.  The competion will heat up in the DC industry and there will be changes...we just don't know when.
> 
> I'll take a Honda over a Toyota.



Competition is always the answer; I agree.

I'm perfectly happy with the timeshares we now use and will patiently wait for a situation that makes me want to act.

I marvel at how the old 80/20 rule works - I see it working all the time around me.

The Marriott's and other timeshares we vacation at are 80% of the way towards our ultimate goal.  That remaining 20% will cost me probably 80% more in cash than what we have paid to get into the timeshares we now love.

So the DC industry is going to have to offer me something spectacular for me to make the move - I just don't see it now.

Spending big bucks is just too easy - anyone can do it if they have the money.  My goal is to do it for 20% of what 80% pay for the same thing.

I still think WorldMark is the model to implement versus the current DC model.

WM could easily buy condos/homes and deposit them into the master trust which are 100% debt free.  Then the developer sells usage, via Points, and folks buy just what they need.  A Points Calendar tells everyone what a unit costs per day.  Holidays cost a lot more, off season a lot less.

The members own part of the master trust and those properties can be sold later and the money returned to the members or reinvested in new units.

I can't think of a better way to run a DC than with the WM model.  No membership fees - just buy what you want.  Sell them resale to anyone you want.

It's just so simple.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 24, 2007)

personally, i want unlimited use of (mainly detached single family) homes with the same (average) value for a flat deposit and annual fee.

2 of the clubs im watching are like that.
the 3rd might not allow unlimited use, but doesnt charge an annual fee.
and the 4th charges $300/nt after plan nights are used.

youre talking about something like the onekeyworld (~$2K/nt) model. like a fractional card. onekey sure has some great savings. IIRC you said you would be more interested if they had lower value/cost properties. personally, id actually probably be more interested (longterm) in higher value/cost properties.

another thing that comes to mind, from what youre talking about is a club theyve got in australia with homes, cars, yachts, etc - more like a car club with other stuff. (point based) ill try and find it again and link it. again, not something im really interested in personally, because usage of the high value stuff is so limited. although i really dont remember what i worked out for the daily costs etc.. here it is >
http://www.limitededition.com.au/


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## NeilGoBlue (Sep 24, 2007)

*throwing out the baby with the bath water..*

Just a reminder... 

Both Bellehaven's and Crescendo offer asset protection.


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