# POLL - Wyndham Membership Composition



## SNA27 (Jan 5, 2020)

As suggested in another thread, here is a poll to get an idea of the composition of Wyndham Membership in terms of VIP levels and Resale.


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## Grammarhero (Jan 5, 2020)

Bump


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## Eric B (Jan 5, 2020)

You missed a few combinations.  There are some VIP resale only owners and there are some with both PR and non-PR.

In any case, my take is that the results won't be truly representative of all Club Wyndham owners for a variety of reasons.


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## SNA27 (Jan 5, 2020)

Eric B said:


> You missed a few combinations.  There are some VIP resale only owners and there are some with both PR and non-PR.
> 
> In any case, my take is that the results won't be truly representative of all Club Wyndham owners for a variety of reasons.



How can you be VIP with only resale? Please explain.
I thought PR is automatically at the Platinum level. So, VIP-PR with additional non-PR is still VIP-PR, right?

As to your last point, I am aware of the sample limitations. Will cross that bridge when we come to it. We will see whether TUGBBS is a representative sample of the Wyndham population!


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## Eric B (Jan 5, 2020)

There are some folks that found and exploited loopholes over the year and have resale VIP accounts.  I believe the loopholes have been closed and it doesn't include me.

Re: PR, I don't believe a resale PR owner gets VIPP for other resale ownerships and I'm not sure how much of the VIPP benefits they get.  Otherwise that would be a remaining loophole to get to VIPP.  I'm not going to research that, though, because I'm not planning on acquiring such an account.


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## Sandy VDH (Jan 5, 2020)

Eric B said:


> There are so.e folks that found and exploited loopholes over the year and have resale VIP accounts.  I believe the loopholes have been closed.



Loopholes have been closed, but it was possible IN THE PAST.  

My Platinum status was removed, but I challenge it and got it reinstated, as I ensured that Platinum was written into the deal and had proof.   I got a deal that had old Fairfield fixed weeks converted, and equity swap (to avoid a big SA), two PIC weeks and a 1 time purchase from Wyndham for 160K to get VIPP.  

Not planning to attempt a jump to Founders level as I don't think the bennies are worth it.  If Club Pass got the same VIP discounts as Wyndham I might consider but as it looks to be some rotating thing, I am not at all interested.   Looking into small WM deal or finding regular trading partners who will swap WM for Wyn and vice versa.


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## Eric B (Jan 5, 2020)

Sandy VDH said:


> Loopholes have been closed, but it was possible IN THE PAST.
> 
> My Platinum status was removed, but I challenge it and got it reinstated, as I ensured that Platinum was written into the deal and had proof.   I got a deal that had old Fairfield fixed weeks converted, and equity swap (to avoid a big SA), two PIC weeks and a 1 time purchase from Wyndham for 160K to get VIPP.
> 
> Not planning to attempt a jump to Founders level as I don't think the bennies are worth it.  If Club Pass got the same VIP discounts as Wyndham I might consider but as it looks to be some rotating thing, I am not at all interested.   Looking into small WM deal or finding regular trading partners who will swap WM for Wyn and vice versa.



That was 160K points as a retail purchase, not $160K, right?  If so that would technically make it just a max of 668K VIP-eligible points under the current rules.


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## Braindead (Jan 5, 2020)

Eric B said:


> There are some folks that found and exploited loopholes over the year and have resale VIP accounts.  I believe the loopholes have been closed and it doesn't include me.
> 
> Re: PR, I don't believe a resale PR owner gets VIPP for other resale ownerships and I'm not sure how much of the VIPP benefits they get.  Otherwise that would be a remaining loophole to get to VIPP.  I'm not going to research that, though, because I'm not planning on acquiring such an account.


You’re correct that a resale PR doesn’t come with a  VIPP account or any other VIP account


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## Sandy VDH (Jan 5, 2020)

Eric B said:


> That was 160K points as a retail purchase, not $160K, right?  If so that would technically make it just a max of 668K VIP-eligible points under the current rules.



Yes 160K purchase in POINTs not $$.  No idea what your second sentence means?  What current rule are you referring to?

AFA Wyndham is concerned I have over 1M and will be grandfathered into the old Platinum level.


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## SNA27 (Jan 5, 2020)

Added 4 more Resale only categories. 
96 views and only 13 votes?


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## Eric B (Jan 5, 2020)

Sandy VDH said:


> Yes 160K purchase in POINTs not $$.  No idea what your second sentence means?  What current rule are you referring to?
> 
> AFA Wyndham is concerned I have over 1M and will be grandfathered into the old Platinum level.



It would be the 160K points plus up to 508K for the two PIC weeks that would count now.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 5, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Added 4 more Resale only categories.
> 96 views and only 13 votes?



Many people use Tapatalk to consume forum content across multiple forums on mobile devices, myself included, which does not display nor support the poll function. In a cloud first mobile first world, when something isn’t supported completely on mobile apps, it will not be consumed/used. 

I had to manually launch the TUGBBS web forum on my mobile device and login and so forth to actually complete the poll.  Give it time as well, many folks may return and complete the poll eventually.  

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SNA27 (Jan 5, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Many people use Tapatalk to consume forum content across multiple forums on mobile devices, myself included, which does not display nor support the poll function. In a cloud first mobile first world, when something isn’t supported completely on mobile apps, it will not be consumed/used.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I just went to Tapatalk on my iPhone and I see what you mean! Bummer! 

But the one who should solve this problem is Tapatalk!

But if you go to Chrome or Safari browser on iPhone, TUGBBS works fine!


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## Sandy VDH (Jan 5, 2020)

Eric B said:


> It would be the 160K points plus up to 508K for the two PIC weeks that would count now.



And why are not my fixed weeks converted to points NOT eligible to count?


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## SNA27 (Jan 5, 2020)

Sandy VDH said:


> And why are not my fixed weeks converted to points NOT eligible to count?



Of course, those should count. I have a Flagstaff FW which I bought from Wyndham and it counts for 105k points towards my VIP-P.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 5, 2020)

Sandy VDH said:


> Loopholes have been closed, but it was possible IN THE PAST.



Agreed. I’ve tried just about every known “possibility” to find a workaround to get VIP on the cheap over the past several months. All of the workarounds/loopholes that previously worked are no longer working IME. I really wish this wasn’t the case. 

Many of these workarounds are often represented as still valid - but when push comes to shove and I perform the required due diligence it fails to count for VIP eligibility. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Eric B (Jan 5, 2020)

Sandy VDH said:


> And why are not my fixed weeks converted to points NOT eligible to count?



I thought you had indicated that you had used some prior loophole.  My bad if I misinterpreted that.


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## Sandy VDH (Jan 5, 2020)

Eric B said:


> I thought you had indicated that you had used some prior loophole.  My bad if I misinterpreted that.



Oh I did, but they still count


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## SNA27 (Jan 5, 2020)

Hey, what do you know! I am not alone in the VIP-P Retail only category! 

I wish I had ordered the choices differently! Is there any way to do it without messing up the poll?


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## CO skier (Jan 5, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Added 4 more Resale only categories.
> 96 views and only 13 votes?


What were you expecting?

There is no way to get anything resembling a statistically valid poll of Wyndham from TUG Wyndham forum participants or any other social media platform.  Someone could look at the current standings of the poll and reach an erroneous conclusion that, "Resale buyers are the quiet majority on the TUG Wyndham forum."  (That conclusion could also be true; not enough participation to reach a conclusion.)

My observation over the years is that the Wyndham forum posts are dominated by members using Wyndham as a business opportunity (it is not as bad as it used to be) and (the VIP discounts likely play a part in the profitability of the businesses. Any changes that affect that profitability leads to all sorts of conspiracy theories and moaning complaints).  Definitely a skewed perspective, and would explain why someone reading the Wyndham forum as a newbie might post, "Is anyone happy with their Wyndham ownership?"

A significant majority of Club Wyndham Owner families, VIP or resale or combination using Wyndham resorts for their personal vacations, must be at least content with their ownership.  Why else would there be 421,000 Club Wyndham owners?


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## kaljor (Jan 6, 2020)

I think it’s understood that this poll is not representative of Wyndham as a whole because we are such a small amount of Wyndham owners.  

The low poll turnout is not only due to people viewing on their phones, I think people are generally uninterested in participation these days.  Have you noticed how few people contribute to the Maintenance Fee thread each year.  And that’s a thread that can be really helpful to all who read or respond in this forum


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## CO skier (Jan 6, 2020)

kaljor said:


> I think it’s understood that this poll is not representative of Wyndham as a whole because we are such a small amount of Wyndham owners.


Then what IS the purpose of the poll, if not an extrapolation of [Club] Wyndham [owners] based on a TUG poll?  Or any other Wyndham related poll on TUG?  It all seems an exercise in pointlessness.


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## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

CO skier said:


> What were you expecting?
> 
> There is no way to get anything resembling a statistically valid poll of Wyndham from TUG Wyndham forum participants or any other social media platform.  Someone could look at the current standings of the poll and reach an erroneous conclusion that, "Resale buyers are the quiet majority on the TUG Wyndham forum."  (That conclusion could also be true; not enough participation to reach a conclusion.)
> 
> ...



I like to play with toys or adult equivalents thereof!  I 'selfishly' posted this poll as a learning experience in posting polls and not to discover some epiphany!
I studied statistics more than 40 years ago and used to be rather good at it! I understand samples and their limitations! I mentioned it on this thread in response to @Eric B. Perhaps you missed it!
I understand this forum would be incorrectly skewed towards resale only owners! @HitchHiker71 has already pointed out the Tapatalk limitation!
I am sure you're a wonderful guy in person but when you're responding in cyberspace, you seem to forget that we're real people with our own sensibilities and pride! And you seem to ignore all that has gone before and all that can be perceived from what has been written by the other person!

I don't want to get into verbal judo again!I know I will win but it will all get expunged! 

God bless! Good night!


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## kaljor (Jan 6, 2020)

It's a best guess.  It doesn't purport to be representative of Wyndham as a whole, but it could be interesting to get a perspective on who's posting here.  Also, don't forget that the thread that showed Wyndham's official statistics were completely obscure, so this forum poll may prove to be more informative than even the numbers Wyndham reports on their SEC required reports.

I just wish more forum members would participate.  It could help everyone.


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## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

I have texted my trusted Wyndham insider to share his guesstimates. It will be far more accurate than any poll here! If and when he responds, I will post it here. 
It's an opportunity for TUGBBS to invite more Wyndham owners and employees to participate so we can all be better informed!


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## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

Here's the text I received:

_Hey there. It's been a while since I've seen the stats. Not sure they are putting that info out anymore. I know it used to be about 5% platinum (probably less than 1% PR due to inventory limitations), and around 15% gold. I would guess around 30% silver due to the fact that new owners automatically get silver with all but the minimum purchase. Resale is probably 5% of the owner base.  I'll see if I can get some current info. I'm curious too._

I think he means 'member' when he writes 'owner'. 5% resale seems to be in line with 20k mentioned here.


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## schoolmarm (Jan 6, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Here's the text I received:
> 
> _Hey there. It's been a while since I've seen the stats. Not sure they are putting that info out anymore. I know it used to be about 5% platinum (probably less than 1% PR due to inventory limitations), and around 15% gold. I would guess around 30% silver due to the fact that new owners automatically get silver with all but the minimum purchase. Resale is probably 5% of the owner base.  I'll see if I can get some current info. I'm curious too._
> 
> I think he means 'member' when he writes 'owner'. 5% resale seems to be in line with 20k mentioned here.


And what would the remaining 44% be?  Non-Vip?  Discovery? That's nearly half of the member/owners.  
I think that more of the base is resale.  I've talked to plenty resale owners at the various resorts and there are a lot here. 
I'm in the category of ooops I bought from Wyndham and didn't find the TUG board until too late to rescind. Then added resale twice. And I have a week ready to PIC as soon as I get another and save up for the Telesales purchase.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 6, 2020)

schoolmarm said:


> And what would the remaining 44% be?  Non-Vip?  Discovery? That's nearly half of the member/owners.
> I think that more of the base is resale.  I've talked to plenty resale owners at the various resorts and there are a lot here.
> I'm in the category of ooops I bought from Wyndham and didn't find the TUG board until too late to rescind. Then added resale twice. And I have a week ready to PIC as soon as I get another and save up for the Telesales purchase.



As I mentioned previously in this thread, I think the definition of words like "owners" vs "members" vs "contracts" matters.  I suspect the 5% resale consists of resale _only _owners. I'm a VIPP owner that also has a large resale contract. I suspect I would only be counted as among the 5% VIPP owners, and not also as a 5% resale owner - since we can't really count owners twice. I suspect the best way to approach this when asking Wyndham is to ask about the number of retail vs resale contracts outstanding, since it is at the contract level that the resale is recorded - not at the account level. This will tell us out of the total gross number of contracts outstanding - how many of those contracts are resale contracts. Then we can attempt to determine how those contracts are spread across actual owner categories. Come to think of it - it's really not even about the number of contracts - but rather the total number of retail vs resale points outstanding. Here's the total points owned by members as of 12/31/2018 from the annual owners meeting (110,483,176,159). So out of the roughly 110.5B points that are member owned, how many of those points are owned within retail vs resale contracts?


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## MoPops (Jan 6, 2020)

I am silver, but the only resale points I have are from a PIC.  We have a minimal telesales contract plus the PIC that got us to silver.  I thought about going to gold, but I am not sure we will use all the points we have now.  I wasn’t sure if should click on retail only or retail plus resale.  Technically I have resale points so that’s what I clicked.


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## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

MoPops said:


> I am silver, but the only resale points I have are from a PIC.  We have a minimal telesales contract plus the PIC that got us to silver.  I thought about going to gold, but I am not sure we will use all the points we have now.  I wasn’t sure if should click on retail only or retail plus resale.  Technically I have resale points so that’s what I clicked.



PIC points count towards VIP level. So, it's not 'resale' but should be treated on par with 'retail'. So, you should check 'VIP-SILVER - Retail only' if you don't have any resale.


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## MoPops (Jan 6, 2020)

I don’t think I can get back in and change my poll selection.  My PIC was a resale TS purchase at zero cost through timeshare nation.  Don’t know if that makes any difference.


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## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> As I mentioned previously in this thread, I think the definition of words like "owners" vs "members" vs "contracts" matters.  I suspect the 5% resale consists of resale _only _owners. I'm a VIPP owner that also has a large resale contract. I suspect I would only be counted as among the 5% VIPP owners, and not also as a 5% resale owner - since we can't really count owners twice. I suspect the best way to approach this when asking Wyndham is to ask about the number of retail vs resale contracts outstanding, since it is at the contract level that the resale is recorded - not at the account level. This will tell us out of the total gross number of contracts outstanding - how many of those contracts are resale contracts. Then we can attempt to determine how those contracts are spread across actual owner categories. Come to think of it - it's really not even about the number of contracts - but rather the total number of retail vs resale points outstanding. Here's the total points owned by members as of 12/31/2018 from the annual owners meeting (110,483,176,159). So out of the roughly 110.5B points that are member owned, how many of those points are owned within retail vs resale contracts?
> 
> View attachment 16121



Yes. Counting contracts of different sizes will not produce a meaningful number. Aggregate points approach you have laid out is a good measure of Wyndham's sales efforts and retention. 
But it does not help to find out Membership composition. VIP with resale is still a VIP.


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## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

MoPops said:


> I don’t think I can get back in and change my poll selection.  My PIC was a resale TS purchase at zero cost through timeshare nation.  Don’t know if that makes any difference.



Yes, you can change your vote. I too got my 2 PIC's (508k points worth) on eBay for $1 each which the seller never even bothered to collect!


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## paxsarah (Jan 6, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Yes. Counting contracts of different sizes will not produce a meaningful number. Aggregate points approach you have laid out is a good measure of Wyndham's sales efforts and retention.
> But it does not help to find out Membership composition. VIP with resale is still a VIP.



Both would be interesting pieces of information for different reasons. If you're talking about the numbers of different types of members, I'd be curious to know the percentage of pure resale-only owners versus various levels of VIP might be walking around at the resort where I'm staying (or inhabiting the BBS or FB group where I'm opining). But it would also be interesting to know, for instance, what percentage of points are contained within Platinum accounts vs. gold vs. silver vs. non-VIP. What percentage of points floating around out there are resale vs. direct, that can be interesting, too - especially if we could find out how many resale points are contained within VIP accounts.


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## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> Both would be interesting pieces of information for different reasons. If you're talking about the numbers of different types of members, I'd be curious to know the percentage of pure resale-only owners versus various levels of VIP might be walking around at the resort where I'm staying (or inhabiting the BBS or FB group where I'm opining). But it would also be interesting to know, for instance, what percentage of points are contained within Platinum accounts vs. gold vs. silver vs. non-VIP. What percentage of points floating around out there are resale vs. direct, that can be interesting, too - especially if we could find out how many resale points are contained within VIP accounts.



I like that. Membership distribution as well as point distribution among the membership! Both would be interesting to know.

Maybe I should set up a second poll! Should I try to collect the actual points, I don't know how to do that yet! But I can set up a poll on point ranges!
I have to think this through! All input will be welcome and appreciated!

I think it would require 2-dimensional matrix poll which is not possible. Turning 2 dimensions into a single column poll would be tedious and result in too many entries! Hmm!


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## CO skier (Jan 7, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> I don't want to get into verbal judo again!I know I will win but it will all get expunged!


I think you missed the fact that the first post of the exchange did not get expunged from the thread.


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## MoPops (Jan 7, 2020)

Changed my vote.   Just seems like a big spread between someone that bought minimal points through telesales and added the rest through no charge PICs, vs someone that bought all developer points, and no PICs.   
Maybe that’s not the point of the survey though?


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 7, 2020)

MoPops said:


> Changed my vote.   Just seems like a big spread between someone that bought minimal points through telesales and added the rest through no charge PICs, vs someone that bought all developer points, and no PICs.
> Maybe that’s not the point of the survey though?



You do bring up what I think is an interesting point.  Should we or should we not differentiate in the poll regarding PIC?  Perhaps we add more categories "w/PIC" as follows:

Resale Only
Retail Only
Retail w/PIC

The same changes would need to be made for each VIP category though - and the number of choices is already getting too large - and going down this road also means we should then start adding in choices such as converted contracts from weeks to points that also have helped many long time Wyndham owners to get to VIP levels over time.


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## Jan M. (Jan 7, 2020)

CO skier said:


> A significant majority of Club Wyndham Owner families, VIP or resale or combination using Wyndham resorts for their personal vacations, must be at least content with their ownership. Why else would there be 421,000 Club Wyndham owners?



I too always thought that the majority of owners were at least content but after joining several Wyndham Facebook groups a few months ago I'm not so sure about that anymore. Even on the Happy Wyndham Owners Facebook group people still manage to sneak in their complaints even though they aren't supposed to post anything negative in that group. I often find myself thinking that if anyone ever starts an Unhappy Wyndham Owners group all the people posting would be blowing up Facebook. I never expected to see the number of owners who are varying degrees of unhappy about one or two things to everything! Most of them would rather complain on Facebook than call Wyndham for something they should be able to get taken care of. They complain about what they didn't or don't know when they could log in on the website and easily get the information themselves. They could spend less time complaining and fooling around on Facebook and more time looking for the reservations they claim they can never ever get. The best one this morning was from a woman complaining about everything for their stay at St. Thomas Margaritaville. Of course the Wyndham haters immediately had to chime in supporting her. Her main complaint among the many was that the studio unit SHE booked was small and didn't have an oven. A larger number of people had no sympathy for her and told her she should have paid attention to what she was booking. and not booked it if it wasn't what she wanted. 

I often seriously wonder if a number of the people posting in the Facebook groups need toilet paper to come with picture instructions on how to use it. It restores my faith in humanity when I see someone asking a question that isn't in the form of a complaint or isn't because they are too lazy to look it up themselves or make a phone call.

You also mentioned renting. We are all aware that some owners rent a lot and some once in awhile but I truly thought the bulk of owners used what they have for themselves, their families and sometimes close friends too. Seeing the number of owners in the Facebook groups who are established renters, those who are attempting to rent but definitely not experienced at it and those who want to learn how to rent has been a very disillusioning shock. When other people were happy to see the megarenters gone I predicted that other people would take their place and that there would be a learning curve with the people new to renting. This is one time I would be not just thrilled to be wrong but would pay good money to be wrong. I never for a second expected what I'm seeing. two and a half years later.


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## dagger1 (Jan 7, 2020)

[Quoted comment/reply removed by moderator]
Sorry, I don’t understand this response...


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 7, 2020)

Jan M. said:


> I too always thought that the majority of owners were at least content but after joining several Wyndham Facebook groups a few months ago I'm not so sure about that anymore. Even on the Happy Wyndham Owners Facebook group people still manage to sneak in their complaints even though they aren't supposed to post anything negative in that group. I often find myself thinking that if anyone ever starts an Unhappy Wyndham Owners group all the people posting would be blowing up Facebook. I never expected to see the number of owners who are varying degrees of unhappy about one or two things to everything! Most of them would rather complain on Facebook than call Wyndham for something they should be able to get taken care of. They complain about what they didn't or don't know when they could log in on the website and easily get the information themselves. They could spend less time complaining and fooling around on Facebook and more time looking for the reservations they claim they can never ever get. The best one this morning was from a woman complaining about everything for their stay at St. Thomas Margaritaville. Of course the Wyndham haters immediately had to chime in supporting her. Her main complaint among the many was that the studio unit SHE booked was small and didn't have an oven. A larger number of people had no sympathy for her and told her she should have paid attention to what she was booking. and not booked it if it wasn't what she wanted.
> 
> I often seriously wonder if a number of the people posting in the Facebook groups need toilet paper to come with picture instructions on how to use it. It restores my faith in humanity when I see someone asking a question that isn't in the form of a complaint or isn't because they are too lazy to look it up themselves or make a phone call.
> 
> You also mentioned renting. We are all aware that some owners rent a lot and some once in awhile but I truly thought the bulk of owners used what they have for themselves, their families and sometimes close friends too. Seeing the number of owners in the Facebook groups who are established renters, those who are attempting to rent but definitely not experienced at it and those who want to learn how to rent has been a very disillusioning shock. When other people were happy to see the megarenters gone I predicted that other people would take their place and that there would be a learning curve with the people new to renting. This is one time I would be not just thrilled to be wrong but would pay good money to be wrong. I never for a second expected what I'm seeing. two and a half years later.



Love the feedback as usual. I found myself thinking about putting some additional perspective around what you’ve posted. Here goes! 

If we accept the general rule that most people join these groups because they are unhappy on some level to begin with - and that the majority of folks who are content simply wont go looking for an audience online to share their contentment, whereas those who are unhappy will go looking for somewhere to complain, then it’s a safe assumption that 80% of Facebook forum members and even a healthy subset of TUG forum members aren’t exactly timeshare fanboys. Long story short - we probably have a collective minority of unhappy timeshare owners who are very vocal - and a majority of timeshare owners who are basically fairly content and not saying much of anything.

If we look at the largest Wyndham timeshare FB group - it has about 25k members. The next largest is around 7.5k members. All told if we were to add up the memberships of all of the FB Wyndham groups it would probably total roughly 10% of the 422k owners out there. Perhaps a bit more or less, but my assertion here is that we can assume that the other 90% that don’t join these groups are either suffering in silence - which I think is unlikely - or that the vast majority of these folks are probably fairly content with their ownership - or at least not sufficiently unhappy to go looking for others to share their collective discontent. Misery loves company right? 

I would argue that I think your initial thinking that most owners are content is probably true, but we tend to be exposed to the rather vocal discontented minority and therefore we can tend to assume that this is a fair representation of the rest of the ownership.

I oversee a customer success and support organization for my day job. Every day, I’m constantly fighting fires, managing partner and customer escalations, essentially managing unhappy customers. Based upon my daily anecdotal experiences - I would really come to believe that our partners and customer experiences leave a LOT to be desired. Yet, we consistently score a 9.x/10 on our CSAT surveys month to month. 

So statistically the hard data tells us that the vast majority of our partners and customers are very happy, but every day my department constantly spends a lot of time and effort dealing with the minority who are squeaky wheels - the very vocal minority of unhappy customers. It can color your outlook if you let it for sure.

I suspect that Wyndham CSAT tells a similar story. The vast majority are pretty happy with their ownership, yet a relatively small minority are not - but this minority screams the loudest. I think we tend to interact much more with this vocal minority than the silent majority. Just my two cents though. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SNA27 (Jan 7, 2020)

@HitchHiker71, you managed to type all that on an iPhone using Tapatalk? Without spelling errors and proper grammar. Impressed. Your thumbs must be tired. I use my index finger on the iPhone and it would have taken me forever. I see my sons let it rip with their thumbs on the iPhone and I envy their digital dexterity. But they stutter text and not compose a thoughtful piece as you have done.

As to what you have written, all I have to say is 'Customer is NOT always right'. It's a silly fallacy. Right is always right and wrong is always wrong. Period.
In my experience designing IT applications, I have always found that users are never right in expressing what they want. Users usually have a myopic vision and don't know what's possible. If I had ever designed it exactly as they said, it would have been a disaster. They would not have been happy with the result.
I listened to them as a doctor would listen to a patient describing their symptoms and made my own diagnosis as to what exactly is needed to solve their problems. The end results were far superior with such an approach. 

Very interesting off-topic digression.


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## CO skier (Jan 7, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> If we accept the general rule that most people join these groups because they are unhappy on some level to begin with - and that the majority of folks who are content simply wont go looking for an audience online to share their contentment, whereas those who are unhappy will go looking for somewhere to complain, then it’s a safe assumption that 80% of Facebook forum members and even a healthy subset of TUG forum members aren’t exactly timeshare fanboys. Long story short - we probably have a collective minority of unhappy timeshare owners who are very vocal - and a majority of timeshare owners who are basically fairly content and not saying much of anything.
> 
> If we look at the largest Wyndham timeshare FB group - it has about 25k members. The next largest is around 7.5k members. All told if we were to add up the memberships of all of the FB Wyndham groups it would probably total roughly 10% of the 422k owners out there. Perhaps a bit more or less, but my assertion here is that we can assume that the other 90% that don’t join these groups are either suffering in silence - which I think is unlikely - or that the vast majority of these folks are probably fairly content with their ownership - or at least not sufficiently unhappy to go looking for others to share their collective discontent. Misery loves company right?


There are probably WorldMark Facebooks groups dominated by complainers for the same reasons you cite.  There is information available to WorldMark owners that supports your assessment that 80-90% of WorldMark owners (is it too much to extrapolate this to Club Wyndham owners?) are at least content, if not highly satisfied, with their ownership.


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## ecwinch (Jan 7, 2020)

*Moderator Note: If you are having trouble following this thread, or notice disjointed responses, then please attribute that to fact we are at the moderator equivalent of DefCon 4. *


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## geist1223 (Jan 8, 2020)

Thank you.


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## dgalati (Jan 8, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> No, Signor Skeleton Bobsled, I did not miss the fact that saying silly stuff like 'water is wet' doesn't violate the BBS rules.





SNA27 said:


> @HitchHiker71, you managed to type all that on an iPhone using Tapatalk? Without spelling errors and proper grammar. Impressed. Your thumbs must be tired. I use my index finger on the iPhone and it would have taken me forever. I see my sons let it rip with their thumbs on the iPhone and I envy their digital dexterity. But they stutter text and not compose a thoughtful piece as you have done.
> 
> As to what you have written, all I have to say is 'Customer is NOT always right'. It's a silly fallacy. Right is always right and wrong is always wrong. Period.
> In my experience designing IT applications, I have always found that users are never right in expressing what they want. Users usually have a myopic vision and don't know what's possible. If I had ever designed it exactly as they said, it would have been a disaster. They would not have been happy with the result.
> ...


Very off topic now!!!!!!!!!


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## Jan M. (Jan 8, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Love the feedback as usual. I found myself thinking about putting some additional perspective around what you’ve posted. Here goes!
> 
> If we accept the general rule that most people join these groups because they are unhappy on some level to begin with - and that the majority of folks who are content simply wont go looking for an audience online to share their contentment, whereas those who are unhappy will go looking for somewhere to complain, then it’s a safe assumption that 80% of Facebook forum members and even a healthy subset of TUG forum members aren’t exactly timeshare fanboys. Long story short - we probably have a collective minority of unhappy timeshare owners who are very vocal - and a majority of timeshare owners who are basically fairly content and not saying much of anything.
> 
> ...




Thanks, I needed to hear that.! It has been very disheartening to see so many unhappy owners in the Facebook groups. From staying at the resorts where you talk to other owners and reading the threads since joining TUG I was well aware that there were unhappy owners. And that it ran the gamut from some who were temporarily a little happy over something clear up to some who it seems will carry their hate on for Wyndham to their graves. I think why it bothers me so much is their reasons for being unhappy in far too many cases.

I can't remember if you were still there in the group talking to Annie Roberts at the owners meeting when I mentioned this to her. She seemed very interested and even made sure to get it noted down. I told her that most of the complaints I'd seen and heard from owners seem to stem from their lack of knowledge about what they own or are buying, anything to do with booking and how to use the website. I suggested that Wyndham develop a hands on tutorial. Here is more about my idea now that I've given it some more thought and I hope you will forward it on to her.

The tutorial could be accessed at any sales center or by calling an 800 number from your unit or at home to get you started. I'd have Wyndham put that 800 number on a sticker, refrigerator magnet, key chain or something and every owner would it get it when they bought along with strict instructions to do the tutorial at the sales center or call at the person's earliest convenience. My idea is to use a fake account that would have the person log in as Jane or John Doe, see where to find their fake number of points under ownership, look at the different resorts, see fake availability at specific resorts, put in dates, see the number of points needed to book that reservation, look at the unit information for the different types of units at that resort and the actual steps to making the reservation including borrowing or renting points. The tutorial should have those little icons that you click on next to something that would give you an explanation. I'm a big believer in that the best way to teach most people is to let or make them do it.


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## dgalati (Jan 8, 2020)

Still off Topic!!!!


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## Cyrus24 (Jan 8, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Still off Topic!!!!


I'm off topic, you're off topic, this whole thread is off topic.

Sorry, could not resist.  This is what I get for taking a few days away from the board.


ecwinch said:


> *Moderator Note: If you are having trouble following this thread, or notice disjointed responses, then please attribute that to fact we are at the moderator equivalent of DefCon 4. *


Are you sure that you aren't really at 1 or 2.  You've been on high alert for a while now.


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## Grammarhero (Jan 13, 2020)

Bump.  This was an useful, interesting poll.


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## CO skier (Jan 14, 2020)

Grammarhero said:


> Bump.  This was an useful, interesting poll.


Maybe for the <100 participants in the poll.

For the other 500,000+ Club Wyndham owners, it means nothing.

Which means the poll means nothing.


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## SNA27 (Jan 14, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Here's the text I received:
> 
> _Hey there. It's been a while since I've seen the stats. Not sure they are putting that info out anymore. I know it used to be about 5% platinum (probably less than 1% PR due to inventory limitations), and around 15% gold. I would guess around 30% silver due to the fact that new owners automatically get silver with all but the minimum purchase. Resale is probably 5% of the owner base.  I'll see if I can get some current info. I'm curious too._
> 
> I think he means 'member' when he writes 'owner'. 5% resale seems to be in line with 20k mentioned here.



As they say, DATA is beautiful. It has meaning to those who can interpret it.

Insiders info:  P(PR)-G-S-N-R breakdown is 5(1)-15-30-45-5.
TUGBBS Poll:  P(PR)-G-S-N-R breakdown is 29(9)-17-5-9-40.
Platinum and Resale only owners are overrepresented. They have the most to gain from this forum. They want to maximize the benefits of Wyndham TS.
Non-VIPs and VIP-Silver are underrepresented. I guess they may think they have the least to gain from this forum. They either regret their TS purchase or can't really maximize the meager benefits. Perhaps they do not know about TUGBBS or don't care to join it.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 14, 2020)

I validated with two different sales managers at sales updates this past weekend the following stats:

PR:  1%
VIPP:  3%
VIPG:  8%
VIPS:  42%
R: 5%

Using your breakdown:  3%(1%)-8%-42%-42%-5%=100%


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## dgalati (Jan 14, 2020)

[/QUOTE]


CO skier said:


> Maybe for the <100 participants in the poll.
> 
> For the other 500,000+ Club Wyndham owners, it means nothing.
> 
> Which means the poll means nothing.


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## cbyrne1174 (Jan 14, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I validated with two different sales managers at sales updates this past weekend the following stats:
> 
> PR:  1%
> VIPP:  3%
> ...




So 95% of owners have at least some retail points?


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## SNA27 (Jan 14, 2020)

dgalati said:


>



Giving him a razzie?


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## Braindead (Jan 14, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> So 95% of owners have at least some retail points?


I’d say you’re about right. In this poll it’s about the same number for resale only & resale with developer so overall it’s probably about 5% also.
That makes roughly 90% of all owners are retail purchasers only


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 14, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> So 95% of owners have at least some retail points?



So says Wyndham as I’ve asked several different Wyndhamites, including two executives how much resale is out there and the answer was around 20k owners. That’s out of 423k owners total, or around 5%. I question if this 5% includes owners who hold both retail and resale, but I don’t have an answer on this item just yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dgalati (Jan 15, 2020)

I wonder how many VIP points have been sold and have become resale points? I also would like to know how many resale points a year are sold private sale. Add another category the resale points Ovations takes back and then Wyndham sells as developer points? This could be another poll.


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## Braindead (Jan 15, 2020)

dgalati said:


> I wonder how many VIP points have been sold and have become resale points? I also would like to know how many resale points a year are sold private sale. Add another category the resale points Ovations takes back and then Wyndham sells as developer points? This could be another poll.


Every resale contract over 400k had to be a VIP contract. It seems like it would be half of all points on eBay, but evidently not half or you’d think there’d be a higher percentage of VIP owners than discussed in the other thread


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## dgalati (Jan 15, 2020)

Braindead said:


> Every resale contract over 400k had to be a VIP contract. It seems like it would be half of all points on eBay, but evidently not half or you’d think there’d be a higher percentage of VIP owners than discussed in the other thread


If VIP owner sells their points private party they become resale points. If a VIP owner giveS back points to Ovations they become developer points that are actually developer resale points. Can these points also be Developer VIP RESALE POINTS?


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## Braindead (Jan 15, 2020)

dgalati said:


> If VIP owner sells their points private party they become resale points. If a VIP owner giveS back points to Ovations they become developer points that are actually developer resale points. Can these points also be Developer VIP RESALE POINTS?


The only points that I’d call Developer VIP resale points would be foreclosures & piggyback contracts.
We’ll never know how many points Wyndham gets from owners via Ovations & buying from owners like yourself, we’d all be making wild guesses with nothing to back it up. The only thing for sure is Wyndham does sell those points as retail purchases.


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## dgalati (Jan 15, 2020)

Braindead said:


> The only points that I’d call Developer VIP resale points would be foreclosures & piggyback contracts.
> We’ll never know how many points Wyndham gets from owners via Ovations & buying from owners like yourself, we’d all be making wild guesses with nothing to back it up. The only thing for sure is Wyndham does sell those points as retail purchases.


So are you saying Ovations is a way for Wyndham to sell resale points at developer pricing?


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## Braindead (Jan 15, 2020)

dgalati said:


> So are you saying Ovations is a way for Wyndham to sell resale points at developer pricing?


No I think they eat them for lunch. Get real
What the heck do you think DVC, Hilton, Marriott, Hyatt or any other developer does with contracts they take back??

Thank you Wyndham for having Ovations allowing owners to Deedback their contracts instead of having owners walking away leaving the rest of us owners with a bill for the higher cost involved when an owner walks away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you Wyndham for Ovations so owners have a better option than using Exit Companies


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 15, 2020)

dgalati said:


> So are you saying Ovations is a way for Wyndham to sell resale points at developer pricing?



If Wyndham uses Ovations to take back a paid retail contract from an owner, it's not a resale contract by definition.  If an owner hands in a paid retail contract - they are eligible for the Limited Edition Ovations program.  If an owner hands in a paid resale contract that they obtained via a third party - they are _not _eligible for the Limited Edition Ovations program because of the resale contract status.  The definition of a resale contract is an existing owner using a third party to sell their paid contract to someone else without any developer involvement - it's a third party transaction.  When the deed is changed as part of the ownership transfer - and then submitted to Wyndham for processing - Wyndham labels this contract as a resale transaction.  

If an owner comes to Wyndham directly, via Ovations, to relinquish either their retail or resale contract(s) directly to Wyndham - Wyndham takes back the contracts - and processes the contracts back into their unsold points pool - which is then managed by their sales and marketing division - this is the division that handles all product sales for Wyndham Destinations.  

I really do not understand why you're asking this question:  So are you saying Ovations is a way for Wyndham to sell resale points at developer pricing? 

What is your intention here? What are you trying to really get at? Do you _not _want Wyndham to provide an exit strategy to owners who no longer want their timeshare who don't want to entertain third parties? Honestly, you already know the answers to the questions you're asking here, I know you do, so why ask the question repeatedly in multiple threads over time? I really don't understand the logic behind what you seem to be doing here and would appreciate an open and honest explanation, as I'm sure others would as well.


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## dgalati (Jan 15, 2020)

Braindead said:


> No I think they eat them for lunch. Get real
> What the heck do you think DVC, Hilton, Marriott, Hyatt or any other developer does with contracts they take back??
> 
> Thank you Wyndham for having Ovations allowing owners to Deedback their contracts instead of having owners walking away leaving the rest of us owners with a bill for the higher cost involved when an owner walks away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you Wyndham for Ovations so owners have a better option than using Exit Companies


Eat them for lunch?  I agree on Ovations it is  very profitable to Wyndham shareholders. This helps @Fredflintstone way of traveling using dividends with the purchase of Wyndham stock.


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## Sandi Bo (Jan 15, 2020)

Braindead said:


> No I think they eat them for lunch. Get real
> What the heck do you think DVC, Hilton, Marriott, Hyatt or any other developer does with contracts they take back??
> 
> Thank you Wyndham for having Ovations allowing owners to Deedback their contracts instead of having owners walking away leaving the rest of us owners with a bill for the higher cost involved when an owner walks away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you Wyndham for Ovations so owners have a better option than using Exit Companies


Agree, as much as it stinks, to pay all that money just to give it back - I am thankful Ovations is there.


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## SNA27 (Jan 15, 2020)

When a manufacturer refurbishes a returned product and resells it, it's explicitly labeled 'refurbished' because it's not a 'NEW' product.
When Ovation takes back a TS UDI, there's nothing to refurbish and it's indistinguishable from the original product.  So there is no difference between NEW and USED.
From a COGS (Cost of Goods Sold) perspective, I would argue that COGS for a deed taken back by Ovations is more than their unsold deed. After all, Ovations incurs costs that must be allocated to the deeds taken back.

So, @dgalati, if your point is Wyndham is somehow no different from Exit companies and shouldn't be selling the deedbacks at full price again, it doesn't make sense.
Exit companies are like undertakers getting rid of dead corpses collecting fees for the disposal. Wyndham Ovation brings them back to full life endowed with VIP potential so as to protect its brand.
Ok, @Braindead, don't stretch my analogy and argue why 'resale' is not a dead corpse and how it still gets VIP Benefits or that I am calling Wyndham Dr. Frankenstein!
Please indulge me as I indulge in a cute/clever/stupid analogy!


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## dgalati (Jan 15, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> When a manufacturer refurbishes a returned product and resells it, it's explicitly labeled 'refurbished' because it's not a 'NEW' product.
> When you take back a TS UDI, there's nothing to refurbish and it's indistinguishable from the original product.  So there is no difference between NEW or USED.
> From a COGS (Cost of Goods Sold) perspective, I would argue that COGS for a deed taken back by Ovations is more than their unsold deed. After all, Ovations incurs costs that must be allocated to the deeds taken back.
> 
> ...


I think you have it correct @SNA27


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## SNA27 (Jan 15, 2020)

dgalati said:


> I think you have it correct @SNA27



I am glad you think so. Will you now stop tilting at the Ovation Windmill, Signor Quixote?


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## Grammarhero (Jan 15, 2020)

@CO skier @SNA27 
As you know, I am a data-curious person.  As attached, Gallup famously uses a sample of 1004 people to represent 260 million people, or 1 sample per 260k people.

I think @SNA27 ’s poll is useful and sticky-worthy.  Obviously, tuggers are a self-selecting group.  I find it interesting that while resale-only owners comprise 5 percent of all Wyndham owners but 42 percent on TUG.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 15, 2020)

Grammarhero said:


> I find it interesting that while only resale only owners comprise 5 percent of all Wyndham owners but 42 percent on TUG.



This makes perfect sense to me, given the fact that TUG openly advocates for resale only timeshare ownership.  Therefore a much higher percentage of TUG members are going to prefer and own only resale timeshare contracts.


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## cbyrne1174 (Jan 15, 2020)

It makes perfect sense to me too. The people on this forum are mainly the type of people who do their research before buying something since the forum itself is the main way to research the product. Resale is the most economical membership type. You can end up paying less over all with VIP over many years, but it requires a LONG commitment in order to start seeing the savings, making resale the most economical and appealing to the majority of people who do their research before buying something.


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## SNA27 (Jan 15, 2020)

A well-chosen RANDOM sample will reflect the whole population with a great degree of accuracy. Statistics is a very interesting subject and well established Mathematical Science.

To quote a Tamil proverb: For a pot of rice, one grain is the test! That is, to see if a pot of rice is cooked, you need to test only one grain.
This proverb is really not a testament to sampling per se but it is more about inductive generalization from a sample.


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## Eric B (Jan 15, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> A well-chosen RANDOM sample will reflect the whole population with a great degree of accuracy. Statistics is a very interesting subject and well established Mathematical Science.
> 
> To quote a Tamil proverb: For a pot of rice, one grain is the test! That is, to see if a pot of rice is cooked, you need to test only one grain.
> This proverb is really not a testament to sampling per se but it is more about inductive generalization from a sample.



As many have stated already, a sample of self-selecting respondents to an online poll on TUG, which is itself a self-selecting minor subset of the population of Wyndham owners, is likely to have quite a bit of bias in it.  There may be some value to this poll, but it doesn't seem entirely random or representative of that population; I would question whether or not it is representative of TUG members as well.


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## SNA27 (Jan 15, 2020)

So, a skewed result that doesn't comport with reality reveals a lot about the sample itself. That itself is worth studying. 
When the polls fail, they expose the bias of the poll and pollsters! 2016!


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## OutSkiing (Jan 15, 2020)

CO skier said:


> Then what IS the purpose of the poll, if not an extrapolation of [Club] Wyndham [owners] based on a TUG poll?  Or any other Wyndham related poll on TUG?  It all seems an exercise in pointlessness.


I view this poll as a reflection of the fairly exclusive group of people who participate in tugbbs itself. It's nice to see the ownership profile of those I am chatting with.
Bob


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## dgalati (Jan 18, 2020)

dgalati said:


> I wonder how many VIP points have been sold and have become resale points? I also would like to know how many resale points a year are sold private sale. Add another category the resale points Ovations takes back and then Wyndham sells as developer points? This could be another poll.



@SNA27 Are you working on these polls?
Add another poll on how many rescinded and if they were non VIP or a VIP and what level. Add in if they rescinded and bought resale or went back and bought developer.


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## dgalati (Jan 18, 2020)

CO skier said:


> Then what IS the purpose of the poll, if not an extrapolation of [Club] Wyndham [owners] based on a TUG poll?  Or any other Wyndham related poll on TUG?  It all seems an exercise in pointlessness.


@SNA27 start another poll on if this pointless post above was necessary.


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## SNA27 (Jan 18, 2020)

Apparently, these polls are not universally acclaimed or well-received. Otherwise, more people would have cast votes..
You should do your own poll. It's quite easy to set up. The preview doesn't work well. You have to post to really see how the poll looks. Go for it! PM me if you need my help.
Polls are interesting and generate traffic. That would be one way for guest 'lurkers' to contribute to this forum by at least looking at ads!


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## CO skier (Jan 19, 2020)

dgalati said:


> start another poll on if this pointless post above was necessary.


Less than 100 poll respondents out of 500,000 owners is a meaningless joke -- statistically speaking.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 19, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Apparently, these polls are not universally acclaimed or well-received. Otherwise, more people would have cast votes..
> You should do your own poll. It's quite easy to set up. The preview doesn't work well. You have to post to really see how the poll looks. Go for it! PM me if you need my help.
> Polls are interesting and generate traffic. That would be one way for guest 'lurkers' to contribute to this forum by at least looking at ads!



I suspect there are not that many truly active forum users on TUG when compared to the total registered user base. That said you do see a lot more “reads” than actual replies - but then again how reads are defined matters. I use a mix of Tapatalk and my laptop to consume TUG content, and I often check the same thread multiple times throughout any one day because I receive Tapatalk notifications every time someone adds content to a subscribed thread. Does each time I check the thread count as a “read”? 

If you are really interested in getting a better response rate on these types of polls, I would also consider posting a similar poll out on one of the Facebook Wyndham groups that has 25k+ members. There are only a couple Wyndham groups that have this amount of members - and these large groups also have a lot of members that aren’t Wyndham owners - but they rent from owners via the groups - so I would consider adding a section to the poll to capture this member segment if you choose to go down this road. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SNA27 (Jan 19, 2020)

CO skier said:


> Less than 100 poll respondents out of 500,000 owners is a meaningless joke -- statistically speaking.



Statistically speaking, your contention is a dud 'joke' lacking a punchline!
It's not the sample size but the randomness of the sample that makes a poll meaningful or meaningless.
I agree that this sample is neither random nor representative of the whole population. In fact, even if 50,000 had cast their votes here, the poll could still produce skewed results since the sample is not truly random and hence not representative of the population.
But you seem to be hung up on sample size. Size doesn't matter, as they say! 

See Grammarhero's post. It's worth repeating.


Grammarhero said:


> @CO skier @SNA27
> As you know, I am a data-curious person.  As attached, Gallup famously uses a sample of 1004 people to represent 260 million people, or 1 sample per 260k people.
> 
> I think @SNA27 ’s poll is useful and sticky-worthy.  Obviously, tuggers are a self-selecting group.  I find it interesting that while resale-only owners comprise 5 percent of all Wyndham owners but 42 percent on TUG.


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## dgalati (Jan 21, 2020)

Bump back to top. Hopefully @SNA27 can get a few more to respond.


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## Grammarhero (Jan 25, 2020)

Bump.  Would like more votes and data points.


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## Grammarhero (Feb 4, 2020)

bump


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## dgalati (Feb 14, 2020)

Grammarhero said:


> Bump.  Would like more votes and data points.


Yes I agree.


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