# Question about a free HGVC timeshare



## CBoy3 (Mar 30, 2011)

I have come across someone who wants to get out of a 3500 point HGVC timeshare (he will sign it over to me), and I have a few questions.  First, is it possible to get something like this through without the ROFR coming into play?  If so, how is it done?  I do not currently have a timeshare, and have been researching them for the last few months.  It seems like this is a buyers market for timeshares, and there is no end in sight.  I am looking for a long term situation for any timeshare that I get.  My next question, is this a good deal for me?  I noticed that a 3400 point Flamingo timeshare recently sold for about $700, and a 5000 point Karen Dr. sold for about $500.  Maybe the Karen Dr. won't make it through the ROFR, but obviously deals are out there.  If I took the 3500 point unit for free, and it passed through the ROFR, would I be saddling myself with something that isn't a good long term deal?  Would I be better off waiting to find a good deal on a higher point unit, and pay something more for the initial purchase?

The TUG BBS has been a wealth of information, and help, for this newbie!

Thanks


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## jrc (Mar 30, 2011)

Which resort is being purchased? Has the annual maintenance fee been disclosed?


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## CBoy3 (Mar 30, 2011)

It's Karen Dr..  I believe the MF is about $720/yr.


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## Talent312 (Mar 30, 2011)

LV - Flamingo is the only HGVC resort without ROFR.

To transfer a TS at any HGVC resort, including Karen Ave (nor Dr.), the parties must submit a request for waiver of ROFR to Hilton at least 30 days prior to closing --_ the exact number may vary_. Otherwise, the transfer will not be recognized and the deed may be set aside.

For a Zero or $1.00 sale, there is no doubt that they will exercize a ROFR in a heartbeat.  Some folks try to be cute by misrepresenting the sale price; however, loose lips sink ships and risking criminal or civil penalties for fraud is not a good idea.


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## jrc (Mar 31, 2011)

It's a 2br silver, the MF is $849 plus $114 in club dues.


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## Wexflyer (Mar 31, 2011)

Surely there must be a way to gift ownership to someone else without runnig into ROFR problems?


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## sjuhawk_jd (Mar 31, 2011)

jrc said:


> It's a 2br silver, the MF is $849 plus $114 in club dues.



If this is the case, it is not worth taking it even for free. You will be paying very high fees per point for as long as you will own it.


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## Talent312 (Apr 1, 2011)

Wexflyer said:


> Surely there must be a way to gift ownership to someone else without runnig into ROFR problems?



I imagine that they'll say that any transfer to a 3rd party, other than an immediate family-member, is considered to be a sale. I suspect they'd refuse to honor such a transfer. 

You could then duke it out with their lawyers or show them a court order adopting your grantee.
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But this is armchair quarterbackng. You could call HGVC (800-932-4482) and  ask for the transfer department (not sales) to get an answer from the horses' mouth, so to speak.

... and don't call me Shirley...


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## jrc (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm not sure I understand yet what the seller's incentive is to participate in these schemes. It's sold for them either way and at the price agreed.

Cboy3, now that you have an idea of why the owner would want to get rid of this unit at $0.00, there are plenty of HGVC properties and affiliates that can be had at a much more reasonable long-term price. If $850 for 3500 points didn't bother you, the Bay Club at Waikoloa has 7,000 point units that have gone for under $1k when not yet enrolled in HGVC (another $500). The MF there is a few dollars under $1300 per year. 

You also want to take into account that 3500 points may not meet your needs at every property. Many properties have no studio units, so platinum seasons at some properties are out for you, and some properties have no silver seasons, so that property is not available to you as well (sans borrowing points and making this whole thing very costly).


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## CBoy3 (Apr 3, 2011)

As always, thanks for the replies and information.  How does one know which properties are affiliates of HGVC that can be enrolled in the HGVC program?  Is there a downside to doing this?  Are these properties subject to a ROFR?  Do they enjoy all of the benefits of the HGVC owned proerties?  Now the skeptical question, if you can buy a 7000 point TS for under $1000 and then pay $500 to enroll in HGVC, why aren't people clamoring to do this? (or are they?)

I have been getting a crash course in TS, particularly HGVC, over the last couple months.  Much of it has come from TUG, and I thank all of you!  There are a lot of ins and outs to this TS business, and it seems that some of the TUGgers know it more than the professionals.

Thanks again!


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## Talent312 (Apr 3, 2011)

*How does one know which properties are affiliates of HGVC that can be enrolled in the HGVC program?*

You can look at all the resorts here... http://multimedia.hiltongrandvacations.com/mg/Book_Reader.cfm?BookId=3
Affiliates are ID'd as such in the description of their "attributes."

AFAIK, all affiliates except Grand Pacific, allow one to join HGVC. Grand Pacific allows only direct buyers to join (except resale buyers at Marbrisa, now managed by HGVC, may join for a super-premium).

*Is there a downside to doing this?  Are these properties subject to a ROFR?  Do they enjoy all of the benefits of the HGVC owned proerties?*

The downside is that your affiliate may choose to dis-affiliate with HGVC (it has happened). HGVC will still honor your membership, but you may be on your own as far as the resort is concerned. For any year in which you elect to participate in HGVC instead of using your TS, you will have full member benefits. Affiliates typically do not have ROFR, but as its not a HGVC, you are subject to the affiliates rules, not HGVC's. 

*(I)f you can buy a 7000 point TS for under $1000 and then pay $500 to enroll in HGVC, why aren't people clamoring to do this? (or are they?)*

Many are, but there is a status in owning at a true HGVC resort.
You don't have the concern of wondering if your resort will remain affilitated.


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## CBoy3 (Apr 3, 2011)

Once again, thanks for clearing things up a bit.  After looking through the handbook, it looks like a majority of the properties listed are "affiliates".  One thing that isn't clear is what if the property ends it's association with Hilton.  I don't understand how this works:

 HGVC will still honor your membership, but you may be on your own as far as the resort is concerned.

Do you still have points in HGVC every year if your affiliate property de-affiliates with Hilton?  If not, what can you do with your membership in HGVC?  As for the status of owning a true HGVC resort, I can understand that, but at this point I just want to get as many points as I can for my money.  What would be the best resort for doing that?  Have many resorts that were part of HGVC de-affiliated over the years?  How many?

Thanks!


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## sjuhawk_jd (Apr 3, 2011)

Talent312 said:


> *...
> Many are, but there is a status in owning at a true HGVC resort.
> ...*


*

So, there was no status in owning at Grand Pacific Marbrisa last year when it was an affiliate. Now that it is HGVC Marbrisa resort (true HGVC), there is some status in owning there. Good to know that my status-less ownerships are now having some status.*


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## Talent312 (Apr 4, 2011)

*Do you still have points in HGVC every year if your affiliate property de-affiliates with Hilton?  If not, what can you do with your membership in HGVC?*

You would still be entitled to your points. Your membership is a vested property interest. The onlly thing you would likely lose is a HGVC representative in the front office... many of these affiliates such as the SW Florida, Valdoro & Marbrisa resorts, are currently managed by HGVC.

*I just want to get as many points as I can for my money.  What would be the best resort for doing that?*

Reportedly, Bay Club (Hawaii) has lots of points for reasonable prices, but the MF's are high. IMHO, its the annual MF's which you should be most concerned about, as over 15 - 20 years of ownership they will far outstrip your buy-in price.

*Have many resorts that were part of HGVC de-affiliated over the years?  How many?*

Its actually rather rare. IIRC, two in the last 15 - 20 years. They were small SW Florida resorts.

-------------------------

Marbrisa is technically stilll a part of the GP family, but managed by HGVC under contract, _as if_... just like Bay Club... which makes it more like a foster-child who's given a home.


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## sjuhawk_jd (Apr 4, 2011)

Talent312 said:


> *...
> 
> Marbrisa is technically stilll a part of the GP family, but managed by HGVC under contract, as if... just like Bay Club... which makes it more like a foster-child who's given a home.*


*

Bay Club does not have HGVC in front of its name, Marbrisa does have it now. 

Bay club units are not sold through HGVC sales centers, Marbrisa are. 

I guess "caste" system is still in play. It does not matter where you end up, what matter is where and how you were born. Marbrisa started as a Grand pacific resort (affiliate) and now has all features of a "true" HGVC resort. But that does not matter*


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## Talent312 (Apr 4, 2011)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> Bay Club does not have HGVC in front of its name, Marbrisa does have it now.
> Bay club units are not sold through HGVC sales centers, Marbrisa are.
> I guess "caste" system is still in play....



Alright already... HGVC loves Marbrisa best-est of all their adopted childrens.


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## hurnik (Apr 4, 2011)

Talent312 said:


> *Do you still have points in HGVC every year if your affiliate property de-affiliates with Hilton?  If not, what can you do with your membership in HGVC?*
> 
> You would still be entitled to your points. Your membership is a vested property interest. The onlly thing you would likely lose is a HGVC representative in the front office... many of these affiliates such as the SW Florida, Valdoro & Marbrisa resorts, are currently managed by HGVC.
> 
> ...



Yes, be careful about the MF, however, you CAN make out better.

I'm personally going through the same thing

I can get an affiliate for about $4,000 and $1200 in MF per year for 7000 points.

The CHEAPEST HGVC that will pass ROFR for 7,000 is $12,500 and you'll still have MF of about $850.

According to my calcs, you're still better off at 20 years with the higher MF Affiliate.


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## CBoy3 (Apr 4, 2011)

If you buy a TS at an affiliate, how do you know how many points you will get after paying the $500 HGVC enrollment fee?  I have seen some 2 BR, 2 BA Red week TS that say that they would be 5800 points if HGVC enrolled.  I thought that a 2 BR Red week would correspond to a 2 BR platnium, and would be 7000 points.  Is there some way to figure out what the HGVC points would be?


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## Talent312 (Apr 5, 2011)

CBoy3 said:


> If you buy a TS at an affiliate, how do you know how many points you will get after paying the $500 HGVC enrollment fee?... Is there some way to figure out what the HGVC points would be?



HGVC seasons do not correspond to RCI seasons. But one can figure it out by digging thru the Member Guide. First, find the resort in the Guide and look for its "ClubPoint Values" chart. The week # for sale is included in one of the seasons listed there. The point-value for the TS's size is listed in the "7-Night" column. That's the number of points that will be assigned to you.

Example:
A Bay Club 2BR in Week #22 is in Gold Season and has a 5000 "7-Night" point-value
.... what it takes to book that week in that size TS ....
Buy the same unit in Week #24, and its in Platinum with 7000 points.

See: http://multimedia.hiltongrandvacations.com/mg/Book_Reader.cfm?BookId=3


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## phil1ben (Apr 5, 2011)

"The CHEAPEST HGVC that will pass ROFR for 7,000 is $12,500 and you'll still have MF of about $850."

In my humble opinion the purchase price above is slightly high and MF for a 7000 package slightly low (understanding the Las Vegas properties are somewhat lower than many of the others). There is a post on this forum listing MF fees for various resorts. I have been in the resale market for a HGVC 7000 point package since last November and signed a contract in February which closed in mid March, 2011. It took two ROFR exercises before I agreed to a price which passed ROFR. This was a good way to determine "the line" for the resort I was interested in if you do not mind the effort involved.  I am of the opinion that the price necessary to pass ROFR has increased since February but you can still be in the $10-11,500 area depending on the property. This is not a general rule and will depend to some degree on timing, HGVC allotment for ROFR exercise, the resort and luck. If you call Judi Kozlowski (often identified on this site) she can probably tell you the current "line" over the telephone. For us, the ability to book a home week in the 9-12 month window was important so we bought at the resort we will be visiting almost all of the time. The higher the MF the lower the initial purchase price in most cases---but not all.


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## SmithOp (Apr 5, 2011)

I agree with you Turnick, if you can grab a cheap resale with higher mf, it may not look too bad in the long run now with rofr driving up prices. I picked up a Bay Club 4800 pts last year for $299, with $1036mf. 

Has anyone looked at the trend in mf?  What is to stop all resort areas from equalizing to the same mf in the future, is the difference staying the same?


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## Ellen KarpBendana (Apr 5, 2011)

*H Honors*

I'm interested in getting into the HGVC system so I can start converting to H Honors...I like to stay a couple of nights at a time in NYC...if anyone has any HGVC points that they want to get out of, please let me know!


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## Talent312 (Apr 6, 2011)

Ellen KarpBendana said:


> I'm interested in getting into the HGVC system so I can start converting to H-Honors...I like to stay a couple of nights at a time in NYC.



_Buying into HGVC for this purpose is not a good idea._

Have you crunched the numbers? A 5000-point TS at a 1:25 ratio (converting in the year before use) translates to 125K points... for NYC that's 3 nights in a Hampton Inn (40K/night) or 2.5 nights in a Hilton Hotel (50K/night). Use it those points at a HGVC resort, and you could stay for week or maybe more (depending on the season).


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## frank808 (Apr 14, 2011)

hurnik said:


> Yes, be careful about the MF, however, you CAN make out better.
> 
> I'm personally going through the same thing
> 
> ...



I agree with your assessment.  Bought a Bay Club 2br for $1200 including closing costs on Ebay a few months ago.  Maintenance is $1214 without club dues.  The cheapest HGVC resort with lowest maintenance fee would be las vegas.  The purchase price would be at least $11500 and maintenance fee of $850.  With the purchase price difference divided by the higher maintenance fee, it would take over 25 years to cover the higher purchase price with me paying $500 for the enrollment fee.  Hope this helps with the perspective of buying a Bay Club unit.


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## hurnik (Apr 14, 2011)

frank808 said:


> I agree with your assessment.  Bought a Bay Club 2br for $1200 including closing costs on Ebay a few months ago.  Maintenance is $1214 without club dues.  The cheapest HGVC resort with lowest maintenance fee would be las vegas.  The purchase price would be at least $11500 and maintenance fee of $850.  With the purchase price difference divided by the higher maintenance fee, it would take over 25 years to cover the higher purchase price with me paying $500 for the enrollment fee.  Hope this helps with the perspective of buying a Bay Club unit.



Congrats for you!

Unfortunately it looks like all Bay Club inventory is sold out unless you wanna pay about $9,000 for a 7000 point unit.  Apparently by the time I got my offer in, the "cheap" one was under contract, and the other 4 ads posted here at the TUG are either no-response, or taken (they're still listed even though they're sold or under contract--including the ones from real estate agents).

And apparently Hilton is getting even more aggressive and exercising ROFR on 5000 point units below $8,000 now.

I've searched 3 diff. timeshare brokers/resellers and the inventory is drying up and the ones that list "low priced" units have actually sold them weeks ago, but I guess they feel like it's okay to "bait" someone to try to sell them stuff.

But I'm glad you got an EXCELLENT price!  (hey, at least someone out there got in on the good deals).  Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky!


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## frank808 (Apr 15, 2011)

Wow!  I remember inquiring on at least two bay club units I was wondering that where annual 2br units asking $1500 to $2000 each. "expensive" a few months ago at the marketplace was $3500 for a 2br annual.  Now I have not checked recently.  Do you know what people are paying for Bay Club 1br(4800pts) and 2br(7000pts) units currently?  If the price is right I will have to list a couple units for sale and take care of my maintenance fee for a few years with the remaining units I have.     

Good luck on your search for some cheap units to convert!


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## hurnik (Apr 15, 2011)

The prices I'm seeing for 7,000 Bay club are around $9,000 now.  The ones for $5,000 went in a few weeks and haven't seen any lower than $9k since then.


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## jrc (Apr 15, 2011)

A 7k Bay Club EOY went for $1 on eBay a couple weeks ago (unconverted). A 4800 is currently listed at 297 after failing to sell at 497.


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## Bikeguy (Apr 15, 2011)

Wexflyer said:


> Surely there must be a way to gift ownership to someone else without runnig into ROFR problems?



A Hilton deed can have 4 owners on the title.

I would assume the relationship of someone telling you they'll give you one is relatively close.

I would feel comfortable giving my word to a friend that I'd pay the maintenance fees and use the points, and to add me on as an owner.

No ROFR then.


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## jehb2 (Apr 16, 2011)

hurnik said:


> The prices I'm seeing for 7,000 Bay club are around $9,000 now.  The ones for $5,000 went in a few weeks and haven't seen any lower than $9k since then.



I bet Bay Club resale prices have gone back up now the remodeling of all unit is complete (or soon to be completed).


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## jrc (Apr 16, 2011)

$297 for 4,800 at Bay Club. 0 bids. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/4-800-HGVC-Points-WAIKOLOA-Hawaii-HILTON-Timeshare-DEED-/300547395822

$5,000 is a stretch for Bay Club. Anyone can list a property for a price and hold out for that price. I'd be surprised if anyone took them up on it.


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## CBoy3 (Apr 17, 2011)

It seems that on the resale market the HGVC Silver TS don't really have any resale value.  Does anyone else agree?  I am the original poster on this thread, and I think that even if there is a way for this TS to be given to me for free (and get it through the ROFR) , I will pass on it.  The current owner has actually agreed to pay any closinig costs, so I would be able to take it over for just the annual MF.  It looks like there are plentiful numbers of Silver TS at HGVC affiliated properties that can be had for $1, often with all closing costs paid.  I have even seen HGVC Gold TS go for only a couple hundred dollars.  Are the Platinum HGVC packages the only ones that really have any resale value?  We got an HGVC sales pitch a few months ago, and the starting price from them for a 5000 pt Gold was $38,000.  We made it abundantly clear that we had no interest, and they said "Go enjoy your vacation" and cut the sales pitch short, so we don't know what the final price would have been.  It's hard to get a read on what the resale market actually is.  Does anyone know how often a ROFR is used at affiliated properties?


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## linsj (Apr 17, 2011)

CBoy3 said:


> It seems that on the resale market the HGVC Silver TS don't really have any resale value.  Does anyone else agree?



I sold one last year for a lot more than $1. Depending on your needs and travel times, 3400-3500 points gets a studio for two weeks in Hawaii off season with points left over.


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## hurnik (Apr 17, 2011)

jrc said:


> $297 for 4,800 at Bay Club. 0 bids.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/4-800-HGVC-Points-WAIKOLOA-Hawaii-HILTON-Timeshare-DEED-/300547395822
> 
> $5,000 is a stretch for Bay Club. Anyone can list a property for a price and hold out for that price. I'd be surprised if anyone took them up on it.



And that's EOY for the one listed, and only 4800 points.  However, some people may consider that a good deal for them.

I'm looking for 7,000 points and the only ones in the last two weeks I've seen under $9k are EOY (I wouldn't pay $5,000 for an EOY 7,000, but that's just me).

There were a bunch that went for $5k and under (annual) but they all dried up.  There's still some listed on the TUG but they're sold and the posters haven't bothered to take their posting down.

However, I don't know how often Bay Club exercises ROFR, so even if something sells cheaply, I don't know how often they actually get it.

Rumor has it that Hilton will end their aggressive ROFR purchases at the end of this year.  But that's just rumor.  Given that they're offering to buy BACK units from owners (developer purchase) for more than you'd get selling it "resale", they're definitely forecasting that they can sell these at significantly higher prices.  And they may be getting them.

But I'm sure there's bargains out there to be had if one can be patient and bide their time.  I'm wanting something by July, so that's just me.


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