# Maui Hotels Have the Highest Rates But the Lowest Occupancy



## slip (Nov 24, 2022)

Kauai leads the islands in Occupancy. 






						Maui hotels continue to have highest rates, lowest occupancy
					

Maui County in October again led the way with the highest average daily hotel room rates and revenue per available room, but had the lowest occupancy of all counties, according to the recent Hawaii Hotel Performance Report. The average daily hotel room rate in Maui County last month was $528, up...




					www.mauinews.com


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## DaveNV (Nov 24, 2022)

So if I understand what I just read, even though the money they're making per room has increased substantially since before the pandemic, a third of rooms still go unoccupied each night. Seems to me they could reduce the prices some, and increase the occupancy rates, bringing in more revenue overall.

Does this include timeshares as well, or just hotels?

Dave


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## Luanne (Nov 24, 2022)

Interesting.


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## slip (Nov 24, 2022)

DaveNV said:


> So if I understand what I just read, even though the money they're making per room has increased substantially since before the pandemic, a third of rooms still go unoccupied each night. Seems to me they could reduce the prices some, and increase the occupancy rates, bringing in more revenue overall.
> 
> Does this include timeshares as well, or just hotels?
> 
> Dave



I was wonder that myself. I also was wondering if it was all of Maui County? Molokai's rates are very low but there aren't many units and Lanai's rates are very high. I suppose they average out.


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## DaveNV (Nov 24, 2022)

slip said:


> I was wonder that myself. I also was wondering if it was all of Maui County? Molokai's rates are very low but there aren't many units and Lanai's rates are very high. I suppose they average out.



It said Maui County, with room totals, so likely includes Molokai and Lanai, too.  I was also surprised to read Wailea's room rates were approaching $1000 a night.  I knew there were some fancy digs there, but those numbers seem over the top.  I wonder how many rooms are rented at reduced rates (think Priceline bids) to keep them from staying empty.

Dave


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## slip (Nov 24, 2022)

DaveNV said:


> It said Maui County, with room totals, so likely includes Molokai and Lanai, too.  I was also surprised to read Wailea's room rates were approaching $1000 a night.  I knew there were some fancy digs there, but those numbers seem over the top.  I wonder how many rooms are rented at reduced rates (think Priceline bids) to keep them from staying empty.
> 
> Dave



Mahalo, I missed that.

I remember Wailea being around $700 so that has gone up just like everything else. I wonder If they are OK with the lower occupancy because of the worker shortage also?


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## Luanne (Nov 24, 2022)

Thank goodness for timeshares and reasonable condo rentals.  That way we can still keep going to Maui.


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## slip (Nov 24, 2022)

Luanne said:


> Thank goodness for timeshares and reasonable condo rentals.  That way we can still keep going to Maui.



I agree. I remember in 2019, I stayed at the Marriott Courtyard on Maui for $188 a night. The last time I stayed for work in January of 2022, it was $456 a night.


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## Luanne (Nov 24, 2022)

For our March 2023 trip it will be one in the timeshare where we own and one week rental at the property next door for $280/night (with an ocean view).  And maybe RCI will still come through with a trade for that second week.


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## slip (Nov 24, 2022)

Luanne said:


> For our March 2023 trip it will be one in the timeshare where we own and one week rental at the property next door for $280/night (with an ocean view).  And maybe RCI will still come through with a trade for that second week.



We'll miss you by a month. We are going to meet our daughter there in April. It's her first trip. We are only staying a week and will be at the Maui Schooner.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 24, 2022)

DaveNV said:


> So if I understand what I just read, even though the money they're making per room has increased substantially since before the pandemic, a third of rooms still go unoccupied each night. Seems to me they could reduce the prices some, and increase the occupancy rates, bringing in more revenue overall.
> 
> Does this include timeshares as well, or just hotels?
> 
> Dave



In the lengthy discussion we had about Maui raising the parking fees at beaches and in villages the feeling that I was getting is that the people in Maui wanted to reduce the number of tourists.  One of the ways you can do that is raise the cost of hotel rentals so that less tourists come.  You can more revenue from less tourists.  Perhaps they found the magic bullet without having to tax tourist $50 each and give an appearance like you want to punish tourists.  

I was never for charging tourists a $50 fee.  Chincy.


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## ScoopKona (Nov 24, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I was never for charging tourists a $50 fee.  Chincy.



Every visitor to Las Vegas pays fees from the minute they land until the minute they depart. But they don't notice it because the fees are cooked into the prices. 

That's the way to go. Just like people will click on the lowest airfare or lowest hotel room and then deal with being nickeled and dimed, they won't even think about their Hawaiian vacation where $1000 is cooked into the cost of rental cars, hotel rooms and meals.

They're paying $30 for an order of freakin' _tater tots_, FFS. They don't have any right to whinge on about fees if they're willing to pay $30 for 50 cents worth of food.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 24, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Every visitor to Las Vegas pays fees from the minute they land until the minute they depart. But they don't notice it because the fees are cooked into the prices.
> 
> That's the way to go. Just like people will click on the lowest airfare or lowest hotel room and then deal with being nickeled and dimed, they won't even think about their Hawaiian vacation where $1000 is cooked into the cost of rental cars, hotel rooms and meals.
> 
> They're paying $30 for an order of freakin' _tater tots_, FFS. They don't have any right to whinge on about fees if they're willing to pay $30 for 50 cents worth of food.



The point is you don't want to appear chincy with a $50 tourist fee, but you do want to charge the tourists for coming and using your infrastucture and putting a load on the environment of these beautiful islands!   The $1000 hotel rooms that tourist rent come with almost $200 in taxes/night.  I am sure that in a weeks stay every tourist that comes to Hawaii pays an additional $50 in GET taxes on the food, drinks, activites, entertainment.  Again why appear to be chincy.  If the tourists are not paying enough double the GET on everything but exempt unprepared food which is what local buy much more than tourists.


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## slip (Nov 24, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> The point is you don't want to appear chincy with a $50 tourist fee, but you do want to charge the tourists for coming and using your infrastucture and putting a load on the environment of these beautiful islands!   The $1000 hotel rooms that tourist rent come with almost $200 in taxes/night.  I am sure that in a weeks stay every tourist that comes to Hawaii pays an additional $50 in GET taxes on the food, drinks, activites, entertainment.  Again why appear to be chincy.  If the tourists are not paying enough double the GET on everything but exempt unprepared food which is what local buy much more than tourists.



On Molokai, Kim is eligible for the Meo Card. That gives us no sales tax at the grocery stores here. You have to be 60 years old to qualify for it but my point is, it saves us about $25 a month. That is with just 2 of us. If they eliminated that tax like Tamaradarann is saying it would be a nice savings for families.


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## daviator (Nov 25, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> They're paying $30 for an order of freakin' _tater tots_, FFS. They don't have any right to whinge on about fees if they're willing to pay $30 for 50 cents worth of food.



My read of the menu you're referring to is some kind of fancy tater tots with fresh-caught shrimp.  So it's definitely not 50¢ worth of food, even if it's overpriced.


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## pedro47 (Nov 25, 2022)

Supply and Demand Theory are in play.
Reduce the high rates to increase the occupancy rate.
KISS Theory. LOL


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## ScoopKona (Nov 25, 2022)

daviator said:


> My read of the menu you're referring to is some kind of fancy tater tots with fresh-caught shrimp.  So it's definitely not 50¢ worth of food, even if it's overpriced.



Really, it's about $0.50 worth of food. If you believe the shrimp doesn't come frozen out of a bag, I have a bridge from Big Island to Maui to sell you. But even if it really is local wild caught (it isn't), a few shrimp doesn't cost even $1.00 when purchasing in restaurant quantities.

My point stands. Tourists who are willing to pay $18 for an order of tater tots, with a $12 three-shrimp-on-the-barbie up-sell can afford additional tourist fees.

Maui has made it clear, over and over, they're trying to reduce numbers. Fees are the easiest way to reduce them. (You would think $30 tater tots would do the trick, but that's clearly a big "no.") They should just bake the fees into rental car prices and departure taxes so people don't snivel about it.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 25, 2022)

daviator said:


> My read of the menu you're referring to is some kind of fancy tater tots with fresh-caught shrimp.  So it's definitely not 50¢ worth of food, even if it's overpriced.



The price of food has gone up everywhere so having it go up alot in Hawaii where much of it must be imported for thousands of miles without the benefit of trucks and trains is not alarming nor looked at as a negative message.  A $50 tourist tax is alarming and gives a negative message.   Also, there are many food outlets so if one is too expensive you can go to another or eat different types of food.  A $50 tourist tax by the government is just there, it is blatant, and it is Cindy.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 25, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Really, it's about $0.50 worth of food. If you believe the shrimp doesn't come frozen out of a bag, I have a bridge from Big Island to Maui to sell you. But even if it really is local wild caught (it isn't), a few shrimp doesn't cost even $1.00 when purchasing in restaurant quantities.
> 
> My point stands. Tourists who are willing to pay $18 for an order of tater tots, with a $12 three-shrimp-on-the-barbie up-sell can afford additional tourist fees.
> 
> Maui has made it clear, over and over, they're trying to reduce numbers. Fees are the easiest way to reduce them. (You would think $30 tater tots would do the trick, but that's clearly a big "no.") They should just bake the fees into rental car prices and departure taxes so people don't snivel about it.



It has been reported that Maui has the greatest percentage of vacant hotel rooms and they are blaming the higher cost of hotel rooms on Maui.  The higher cost of hotel rooms comes with higher taxes.  The Governments of Maui and the state of Hawaii are getting more than the $50 tourist tax would collect in higher TAT and GET taxes on rooms for no cost of collecting and implementation.  Why event a wheel when you have nice wheels already that you can just make bigger so easily.


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## ScoopKona (Nov 25, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> The price of food has gone up everywhere



I just purchased a whole cod, two pounds of wild caught scallops, two pounds of U6 shrimp, pacific oysters, and a few large sardines for a little less than $40. And that's me, John Q. Public, buying from the local fish market. "Capt. Hornblowe'rs Surf and Turf Tourist Trap" pays considerably less because they buy considerably more.

Food hasn't gone up_ that_ much. The major cost in a restaurant is all the employees needed to take the order, cook the food and then clean up afterwards. They're sick of working in the industry and are leaving for other careers. The people who are paying through the nose for frozen food poured directly from a bag into a deep fryer don't have an ethical leg to stand on when it comes to tourist fees.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 25, 2022)

Maui has always said they wanted a different class of people on the island, and that doesn't include timeshare owners.  The mayor said year that years ago, when they raised the property taxes for timeshares.  We pay something like $280 per week owned for our Hono Koa timeshare in property tax, and we pay a ridiculously high land-lease fee.

The high hotel price will get those rich people to the island, but upper-income people have other places to go besides Maui.  Hotel owners need to face the truth and that is that rich people have enough money to do some pretty exclusive vacations.  They don't have to go to Maui every year. Money=choice.


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## slip (Nov 25, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> I just purchased a whole cod, two pounds of wild caught scallops, two pounds of U6 shrimp, pacific oysters, and a few large sardines for a little less than $40. And that's me, John Q. Public, buying from the local fish market. "Capt. Hornblowe'rs Surf and Turf Tourist Trap" pays considerably less because they buy considerably more.
> 
> Food hasn't gone up_ that_ much. The major cost in a restaurant is all the employees needed to take the order, cook the food and then clean up afterwards. They're sick of working in the industry and are leaving for other careers. The people who are paying through the nose for frozen food poured directly from a bag into a deep fryer don't have an ethical leg to stand on when it comes to tourist fees.



Food hasn't gone up much?  

What planet are you living on?


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## ScoopKona (Nov 25, 2022)

slip said:


> Food hasn't gone up much?
> 
> What planet are you living on?



The vast majority of the food I buy doesn't come in a box and doesn't have a UPC code. (Exceptions for dried pasta, dried beans, and similar.) Almost all of it comes in the form of "fresh vegetables and protein." Prices have been flat for years. And I have a limitless supply of avocados, tomatoes, onions, citrus and tropical fruit.

It wouldn't surprise me if Cap'n Crunch cereal and Hot Pockets have gone up considerably. But since I don't buy any of that, I have no idea what the prices are.




rickandcindy23 said:


> Hotel owners need to face the truth and that is that rich people have enough money to do some pretty exclusive vacations.  They don't have to go to Maui every year. Money=choice.



St. Barthelemy seems to do quite well with their model of "one-percenters only."


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 25, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> The vast majority of the food I buy doesn't come in a box and doesn't have a UPC code. (Exceptions for dried pasta, dried beans, and similar.) Almost all of it comes in the form of "fresh vegetables and protein." Prices have been flat for years. And I have a limitless supply of avocados, tomatoes, onions, citrus and tropical fruit.
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me if Cap'n Crunch cereal and Hot Pockets have gone up considerably. But since I don't buy any of that, I have no idea what the prices are.



Getting off the subject of food prices and back to the subject of this thread:  High Maui Hotel prices and lower Maui occupancy. 

 I believe we have all heard that Maui wanted to reduce the number of tourists.  The higher Maui hotel prices seems to have accomplished that.  Another benefit of using the hotel prices as a natural method of reducing the number of tourists is that it can be used as an tourist control mechanism.  Want lower number of tourist, raise prices.  Number of tourists got too low, lower prices.  If you go through the beauacratic process of adding and then collecting a $50 fee, then how do you reverse that if it gets results you don't want?


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## ScoopKona (Nov 25, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> If you go through the beauacratic process of adding and then collecting a $50 fee, then how do you reverse that if it gets results you don't want?



"You, you, you." I'm not the one doing this.

If I were in charge of reducing tourist numbers, I would hold a lottery for every hotel and timeshare. Those whose numbers are pulled would be knocked down and hauled away -- and replaced with public parks. (Or in the case of some timeshares, converted into housing.) Once we reached "one-third of tourist occupancy vaporized" no more lottery.

Finished. Also, no more resort building permits issued until there are enough houses for the locals. 

Of course, with that many hotel rooms removed, taxes on those which remain will necessarily go up by at least one third. 

Maui is going to implement fees because that's easy. It's certainly not the best solution. But it's the easiest solution. If they were smart, they would cook the fees into all tourist related activities. But that isn't going to happen, either. So there will be glaring "tourist screwage tax" line items on every receipt. That will annoy a certain market segment into seeking vacation opportunities elsewhere. But it won't do a thing about the average Maui visitor, who isn't feeling any effects from inflation.


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## pedro47 (Nov 25, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Getting off the subject of food prices and back to the subject of this thread:  High Maui Hotel prices and lower Maui occupancy.
> 
> I believe we have all heard that Maui wanted to reduce the number of tourists.  The higher Maui hotel prices seems to have accomplished that.  Another benefit of using the hotel prices as a natural method of reducing the number of tourists is that it can be used as an tourist control mechanism.  Want lower number of tourist, raise prices.  Number of tourists got too low, lower prices.  If you go through the beauacratic process of adding and then collecting a $50 fee, then how do you reverse that if it gets results you don't want?


Will Maui Hotels and restaurants be able to survive with reduced tourism and tourists?

When the reduce of tourists and tourism occurs for five years or more. Who will be the winner and the loser ?

Will the Maui government continue this policy?
Food for Thought.


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## slip (Nov 25, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> The vast majority of the food I buy doesn't come in a box and doesn't have a UPC code. (Exceptions for dried pasta, dried beans, and similar.) Almost all of it comes in the form of "fresh vegetables and protein." Prices have been flat for years. And I have a limitless supply of avocados, tomatoes, onions, citrus and tropical fruit.
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me if Cap'n Crunch cereal and Hot Pockets have gone up considerably. But since I don't buy any of that, I have no idea what the prices are.
> 
> ...



Prices have been flat for years?  

Again, what planet do you live on? Proteins and vegetable prices have certainly gone up.

And yes, Cap'n Crunch and Hot Pockets have gone up too.

The governor has already said he wanted to add the $50 visitor tax somewhere that they could earmark the money for projects that he thought were being damaged by overtourism. It would not be listed as a visitor tax. If he can get it passed in the first place.


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## lynne (Nov 25, 2022)

slip said:


> Prices have been flat for years?
> 
> Again, what planet do you live on? Proteins and vegetable prices have certainly gone up.
> 
> ...


One of the plans is to eliminate the GET for medical services that could improve employment shortages and benefit patients and health care providers by instituting the visitor climate impact fee.


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## slip (Nov 25, 2022)

lynne said:


> One of the plans is to eliminate the GET for medical services that could improve employment shortages and benefit patients and health care providers by instituting the visitor climate impact fee.



We will have to wait and see what actually gets passed.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 25, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> "You, you, you." I'm not the one doing this.
> 
> If I were in charge of reducing tourist numbers, I would hold a lottery for every hotel and timeshare. Those whose numbers are pulled would be knocked down and hauled away -- and replaced with public parks. (Or in the case of some timeshares, converted into housing.) Once we reached "one-third of tourist occupancy vaporized" no more lottery.
> 
> ...



Sorry for saying "you you you". I should have said Maui.  I guess I said YOU  because you were such an advocate for taxing the tourist blatantly. 

However, I disagree with your suggestion that implementing fees is the easiest solution.  The easiest solution is what the hotels have already done by raising prices on hotel rooms, which raises the TAT and GET that is collected, and has already increased the number of vacant hotel rooms.  The other easier solution, rather than creating new fees and methods of collecting those fees is to raise the GET on everything but exempt unprepared food.  That GET tax is already being collected so it is just a change of the multiplier to collect the tax.


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## ScoopKona (Nov 25, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I guess I said YOU  because you were such an advocate for taxing the tourist blatantly.



I'm an advocate for Maui finding a balance between tourism and quality of life. They want to reduce numbers. That means higher prices for tourists -- there is no way to reduce numbers without increasing costs. Basic economics.

Basically, I'm hearing a whole lot of "as long as it doesn't affect my pocketbook, because I'm fresh out of empathy, fine."


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 25, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> I'm an advocate for Maui finding a balance between tourism and quality of life. They want to reduce numbers. That means higher prices for tourists -- there is no way to reduce numbers without increasing costs. Basic economics.
> 
> Basically, I'm hearing a whole lot of "as long as it doesn't affect my pocketbook, because I'm fresh out of empathy, fine."



I can say Amen to that.  Acording to the recent report on lower occupancy due to higher hotel costs seems to say to me that they are doing just that simply and easily.  Those that want to come, whether they live in Hawaii/Maui or what pay the price if they can't or won't they won't.  But Maui and Hawaii won't seem cincy with a $50 tax just on tourists.


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## csodjd (Nov 27, 2022)

DaveNV said:


> So if I understand what I just read, even though the money they're making per room has increased substantially since before the pandemic, a third of rooms still go unoccupied each night. Seems to me they could reduce the prices some, and increase the occupancy rates, bringing in more revenue overall.
> 
> Does this include timeshares as well, or just hotels?
> 
> Dave


Priding has always been a complex matter, whether it is widgets or rooms. Charge more, sell less. What price generates the maximum revenue? PhD’s work on that. With hotel rooms it is that much more complex because there is overhead in servicing more visitors, there is secondary sales (food, gifts, etc.), and there is wear and tear. Again, that’s a problem for MBAs and PhDs. Every items has a “best” price for optimum NET revenue. 

I know a consultant in the eye care business. He says if nobody is complaining about your price, raise it. Raise it $5 across the board. Monitor for 3 months. If nobody complains, and volume is unchanged after 3 months, raise another $5. Keep raising every three months until you get both complaints and see a drop in the volume of sales. 

However, simply reducing the prices to fill the rooms does NOT guarantee a higher bottom line.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 28, 2022)

csodjd said:


> Priding has always been a complex matter, whether it is widgets or rooms. Charge more, sell less. What price generates the maximum revenue? PhD’s work on that. With hotel rooms it is that much more complex because there is overhead in servicing more visitors, there is secondary sales (food, gifts, etc.), and there is wear and tear. Again, that’s a problem for MBAs and PhDs. Every items has a “best” price for optimum NET revenue.
> 
> I know a consultant in the eye care business. He says if nobody is complaining about your price, raise it. Raise it $5 across the board. Monitor for 3 months. If nobody complains, and volume is unchanged after 3 months, raise another $5. Keep raising every three months until you get both complaints and see a drop in the volume of sales.
> 
> However, simply reducing the prices to fill the rooms does NOT guarantee a higher bottom line.



I agree with what your saying about reducing prices to fill rooms does NOT guarantee a higher bottom line.  Furthemore, there is much discussion about Maui wanting to REDUCE NOT INCREASE the number of tourists.  Therefore, the higher prices seem to be doing what they are trying to accomplish. 

 The hotels are making more per room than before the pandemic, the number of tourists are less, since the price of each night is more the taxes that are collected are more.  This seems like a win win for what Maui is trying to accomplish.


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## csodjd (Nov 28, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I agree with what your saying about reducing prices to fill rooms does NOT guarantee a higher bottom line.  Furthemore, there is much discussion about Maui wanting to REDUCE NOT INCREASE the number of tourists.  Therefore, the higher prices seem to be doing what they are trying to accomplish.
> 
> The hotels are making more per room than before the pandemic, the number of tourists are less, since the price of each night is more the taxes that are collected are more.  This seems like a win win for what Maui is trying to accomplish.


And also falls within the adage of, careful what you wish for. If a notable recession hits they may find themselves wishing they had not priced themselves out of a lot of budgets.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 28, 2022)

csodjd said:


> And also falls within the adage of, careful what you wish for. If a notable recession hits they may find themselves wishing they had not priced themselves out of a lot of budgets.



Well if you go by what ScoopKona says the people don't care, they just want less tourists.  I am sure that the Hotel Owners not only care but will adjust their prices if that happens.  Even though this is Hawaii which really doesn't have an off season, the rates that I have seen do change with peak and lower seasons.


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## csodjd (Nov 28, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Well if you go by what ScoopKona says the people don't care, they just want less tourists.  I am sure that the Hotel Owners not only care but will adjust their prices if that happens.  Even though this is Hawaii which really doesn't have an off season, the rates that I have seen do change with peak and lower seasons.


I know, but people also say they don’t care about this or that until they discover what the implications are. I can easily imagine the “fewer tourists” leading to less tax revenue leading to a proposal to increase everyone’s taxes to make up the difference or face layoffs of police and fire and garbage pickup services, and their golf courses close down because they don’t have enough play, etc. Then we find out how much they REALLY want fewer tourists! It is not an easy balance.


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## TravelTime (Nov 28, 2022)

I doubt extra taxes will affect demand for Maui. High room rates definitely affect demand. However, like others have said, higher nightly rates could actually increase profits over filling every room.

In my business, I prefer to have a higher price and have fewer clients. I have calculated the difference in my revenue with higher vs lower rate. The higher price affects demand but I earn more with a higher price, fewer clients and less work. You just need to find the sweet spot.


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## ScoopKona (Nov 28, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I doubt extra taxes will affect demand for Maui. High room rates definitely affect demand. However, like others have said, higher nightly rates could actually increase profits over filling every room.
> 
> _In my business, I prefer to have a higher price and have fewer clients. I have calculated the difference in my revenue with higher vs lower rate. _The higher price affects demand but I earn more with a higher price, fewer clients and less work. You just need to find the sweet spot.



It's the same in my business. One client bought 90% of my crop this year. The only reason he didn't buy 100% is I wanted to keep some for myself and for minor sales direct to consumer later. He didn't even ask "how much?" I sent him an invoice and it was paid in a matter of hours. Now I don't have to do anything until July. (I'm still going to work on my farm. But it's a matter of "want to" not "have to.")

That's the kind of visitor we want -- the kind who doesn't care how much things cost.


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## pedro47 (Nov 28, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> It's the same in my business. One client bought 90% of my crop this year. The only reason he didn't buy 100% is I wanted to keep some for myself and for minor sales direct to consumer later. He didn't even ask "how much?" I sent him an invoice and it was paid in a matter of hours. Now I don't have to do anything until July. (I'm still going to work on my farm. But it's a matter of "want to" not "have to.")
> 
> That's the kind of visitor we want -- the kind who doesn't care how much things cost.


What was your crop??? It must be in Demand and in short Suppy.


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## ScoopKona (Nov 28, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> What was your crop??? It must be in Demand and in short Suppy.



Kona coffee.


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## TravelTime (Nov 28, 2022)

@ScoopKona You will like this article about responsible travel to Hawaii. It mentions farm stays are getting popular!









						Can Responsible Travel to Hawaii Be Fun? We Gave It a Try.
					

It turns out that farm stays and eco-friendly snorkeling trips really are more entertaining than sitting on a beach with a mai tai. Here’s one approach to thoughtful travel in an overtouristed place.




					www.nytimes.com
				




When I told a friend that I planned to stay in an off-the-grid cabin on a farm in Hawaii, her response, a combination of confusion and intrigue, mirrored my general attitude toward camping and most outdoor activities: “You’re doing this voluntarily? Doesn’t Hawaii have literally hundreds of the most beautiful hotels and resorts?”

She wasn’t wrong.

Hawaii does have hundreds of hotels spread across its islands. And for someone who generally considers a jog through the park an outdoor adventure, my choice of lodging in one of the most beautiful places in the world was understandably confounding.

But I wanted a different kind of adventure than the kind people tend to associate with the islands, one that didn’t involve parking myself on a beach with a mai tai. I planned to kayak, snorkel, go on local tours and view local art. I wanted to have fun, but I also wanted to learn something and support local businesses in the process.

I also knew that making local and Native-Hawaiian-owned businesses a bigger part of tourism was a major goal of the Council for Native Hawaiian Advancement, the organization recently tasked with marketing the state to the rest of the country….

…I was drawn to the Inn at Kulaniapia Falls in the hills of Hilo by its stunning 120-foot waterfall and because it offers a number of interesting activities. It also offers a window into how tourism in Hawaii and other overtouristed places could thrive in the future, without harming the environment or the people who call a place home.

The inn is on one side of a more than 40-acre property; on the other side is a farm with three cabins that guests can rent…


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 28, 2022)

csodjd said:


> I know, but people also say they don’t care about this or that until they discover what the implications are. I can easily imagine the “fewer tourists” leading to less tax revenue leading to a proposal to increase everyone’s taxes to make up the difference or face layoffs of police and fire and garbage pickup services, and their golf courses close down because they don’t have enough play, etc. Then we find out how much they REALLY want fewer tourists! It is not an easy balance.



Well on the subject of raising taxes I have mentioned a number of times that Hawaii should raise the GET but exempt unprepared(supermarket type) food which is what local people mostly eat.  The tourists would be paying the higher GET on all the restauant food.


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## ScoopKona (Nov 28, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> It mentions farm stays are getting popular!



Agritourismo is my business plan. I love this economic model.


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## ScoopKona (Nov 29, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Can Responsible Travel to Hawaii Be Fun? We Gave It a Try.
> 
> 
> It turns out that farm stays and eco-friendly snorkeling trips really are more entertaining than sitting on a beach with a mai tai. Here’s one approach to thoughtful travel in an overtouristed place.
> ...



From the article:

“_Visitors want authentic, they want real,_ but they don’t even know what that looks like,” Mr. Lewis said. “This shift allows people and our culture to be the center of the industry. Hawaii is one of the biggest tourism markets in the country and could potentially be a model for what a Native-run model of tourism looks like, one that gives more than it takes.”

[Italics added by me.]

If that's how people feel, I'm sure not seeing it. It would absolutely astound me if even one out of 100 visitors wanted a "real, authentic" experience. The reason it's so hard to retain physicians and teachers is that as soon as they see what "real authentic" looks like, they book a ticket back to the mainland where they can continue living a soft, convenient life.

If given a magic wand, I'm willing to literally bet my farm that the average tourist would wish for "cruise ship amenities on a beach with nothing to think about" for their Hawaiian experience. They don't want real or authentic. They want cheap and abundant. 

It takes effort to find the activities and restaurants that are at least trying to do right by the community. Most visitors aren't looking for any of that. They're going to vote with their wallet.


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## TravelTime (Nov 29, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> From the article:
> 
> “_Visitors want authentic, they want real,_ but they don’t even know what that looks like,” Mr. Lewis said. “This shift allows people and our culture to be the center of the industry. Hawaii is one of the biggest tourism markets in the country and could potentially be a model for what a Native-run model of tourism looks like, one that gives more than it takes.”
> 
> ...



I think you are right in general. I know I want luxury and that is usually not real and authentic. I also think there might be a niche that wants real and authentic. Hawaii is not viewed as real and authentic so Hawaii is not likely to attract people looking for this experience. 

If I wanted real and authentic, I would pick someplace else to travel. But let’s say there is a niche, perhaps Hawaii’s ”new” marketing might attract that kind of tourist. There are many people in California who enjoy farm-fresh organic foods. They might enjoy staying on a farm if the experience were not completely rustic. OTOH, many well-off people still like a basic experience. For a basic experience without phones and TVs, you can still charge premium prices. 

This may not be a great comparison but when Caneel Bay existed, they offered very basic rooms, more like dorm rooms with no phones and TVs, but they charged premium prices for folks who wanted a basic experience and the ability to disconnect. Perhaps for USVIs, that was an authentic experience. LOL


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## davidvel (Nov 29, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> That's the kind of visitor we want -- the kind who doesn't care how much things cost.


Yeah because those generally are the ones that are not at all entitled, care deeply about environmental issues, culture, and strive to do no damage to the land and resources. Yep.


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## pedro47 (Nov 29, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Kona coffee.


Kona coffee is an excellent brand of Hawaiian Coffee. Now I can understand why one client would purchased 90% of your product. IMHO


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## slip (Nov 29, 2022)

Another perspective about the above article. 









						NYTimes Is Wrong: This Isn't Responsible Hawaii Travel
					

Advertorial or news piece? This article about "Responsible Hawaii Travel" just hit us wrong.



					beatofhawaii.com


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## ScoopKona (Nov 29, 2022)

davidvel said:


> Yeah because those generally are the ones that are not at all entitled, care deeply about environmental issues, culture, and strive to do no damage to the land and resources. Yep.



They're also not clogging the roads and clogging the parks. In this case, less is literally more.


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## Luanne (Nov 29, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> Kona coffee is an excellent brand of Hawaiian Coffee. Now I can understand why one client would purchased 90% of your product. IMHO


There are differences in Kona coffee. Some are excellent, some aren't.  You can't just lump them all together.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 30, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I think you are right in general. I know I want luxury and that is usually not real and authentic. I also think there might be a niche that wants real and authentic. Hawaii is not viewed as real and authentic so Hawaii is not likely to attract people looking for this experience.
> 
> If I wanted real and authentic, I would pick someplace else to travel. But let’s say there is a niche, perhaps Hawaii’s ”new” marketing might attract that kind of tourist. There are many people in California who enjoy farm-fresh organic foods. They might enjoy staying on a farm if the experience were not completely rustic. OTOH, many well-off people still like a basic experience. For a basic experience without phones and TVs, you can still charge premium prices.
> 
> This may not be a great comparison but when Caneel Bay existed, they offered very basic rooms, more like dorm rooms with no phones and TVs, but they charged premium prices for folks who wanted a basic experience and the ability to disconnect. Perhaps for USVIs, that was an authentic experience. LOL



Hawaii can be real and authentic but it depends on where you look.  You don't have to live stay outside in a thached Hale for it to be  a real and authentic experience.  Waikiki and the Poloneisian Cultural Center for the most part are NOT real and authentic.  Walking up to the Mausoleum where Queen Liliokolani is buried on Janauary 17th, the anniverary of the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy and walking down to the Iolani Palace with the huge crowd of Native Hawaiians is a real and authentic experience.  Listening to the Royal Hawaiian Band at the Iolani Palace on the Friday adjacent to this anniverary and hearing story and songs about the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy is a real and authentic experience.  Attending the Merry Monarch Hula Festival in the week after Easter on the Island of Hawaii is a real and authentic experience.  There are some other events that we have been to over the years where we have expereinced Hawaiians Performing free events that were real and authentic and not commercial. 

One of the ways you can tell if it is real and authentic is the price.  The first 2 are free events.  The Merry Monarch is unbelievably inexpensive for the amount of entertainment during that week.  They are NOT commerical events.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 30, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I think you are right in general. I know I want luxury and that is usually not real and authentic. I also think there might be a niche that wants real and authentic. Hawaii is not viewed as real and authentic so Hawaii is not likely to attract people looking for this experience.
> 
> If I wanted real and authentic, I would pick someplace else to travel. But let’s say there is a niche, perhaps Hawaii’s ”new” marketing might attract that kind of tourist. There are many people in California who enjoy farm-fresh organic foods. They might enjoy staying on a farm if the experience were not completely rustic. OTOH, many well-off people still like a basic experience. For a basic experience without phones and TVs, you can still charge premium prices.
> 
> This may not be a great comparison but when Caneel Bay existed, they offered very basic rooms, more like dorm rooms with no phones and TVs, but they charged premium prices for folks who wanted a basic experience and the ability to disconnect. Perhaps for USVIs, that was an authentic experience. LOL



Hawaii can be real and authentic but it depends on where you look.  You don't have to live stay outside in a thached Hale for it to be  a real and authentic experience.  Waikiki and the Poloneisian Cultural Center for the most part are NOT real and authentic.  Walking up to the Mausoleum where Queen Liliokolani is buried on Janauary 17th, the anniverary of the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy and walking down to the Iolani Palace with the huge crowd of Native Hawaiians is a real and authentic experience.  Listening to the Royal Hawaiian Band at the Iolani Palace on the Friday adjacent to this anniverary and hearing story and songs about the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy is a real and authentic experience.  Attending the Merry Monarch Hula Festival in the week after Easter on the Island of Hawaii is a real and authentic experience.  There are some other events that we have been to over the years where we have expereinced Hawaiians Performing free events that were real and authentic and not commercial. 

One of the ways you can tell if it is real and authentic is the price.  The first 2 are free events.  The Merry Monarch is unbelievably inexpensive for the amount of entertainment during that week.  They are NOT commerical events.


----------



## ScoopKona (Nov 30, 2022)

Let's try it this way. Imagine that Disneyland/World decided that the lines are too long, the park is too crowded, and guests would enjoy themselves more if the daily visitor count was halved.

First of all, all the prices would double. From parking to buying mouse-ear hats, to the cost of sausages and beer at Epcot Germany. Would the Disney themepark market be able to withstand paying double? If the answer is, "half the people who are currently Disney themepark visitors could," then it's a viable strategy.

If the answer is, "enough people who don't currently visit Disney themeparks now would if the crowds were reduced by half" then it's also a viable strategy.

The people who can't afford the new pricing structure will be left behind. And they'll complain online to anyone who will listen. But Disney is going to do what's best for Disney. 

Hawaii is basically treated like a theme park by tourists -- so I don't see any real difference.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 30, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Let's try it this way. Imagine that Disneyland/World decided that the lines are too long, the park is too crowded, and guests would enjoy themselves more if the daily visitor count was halved.
> 
> First of all, all the prices would double. From parking to buying mouse-ear hats, to the cost of sausages and beer at Epcot Germany. Would the Disney themepark market be able to withstand paying double? If the answer is, "half the people who are currently Disney themepark visitors could," then it's a viable strategy.
> 
> ...


The difference is that Disney is a private company as are the Hotels on Maui.  Therefore, they can charge whatever they want.  However, placing a tax on tourists only for coming, not a GET or an Accomodations Tax which everyone pays, treats tourists in a special negative way.  It is a Blatant Chintzy Tax which tell tourists "your not wanted".  That is not Aloha.  That is not what Hawaii wants.


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## ScoopKona (Nov 30, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> That is not what Hawaii wants.



It's clearly not what YOU want. But I'm fine with it. Jack the taxes if that's what residents want. The locals have been on the [excrement] end of the stick for far too long. If they want to throttle tourism, I'm going to cheer them on and wish them well. I'm also fine with kicking Ironman to the curb here on Big Island. And they're tossing the men's race right off the island -- which is a good start. Good riddance to bad rubbish.


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## slip (Nov 30, 2022)

We keep posting about all this stuff but on Maui, the only thing starting are some parking fees. The governor may try for a visitor fee state wide but we don't know if that will pass yet. 

I haven't heard of anything else proposed or moving forward.


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## slip (Nov 30, 2022)

An update at the state level was on the news today. 









						Resolving tourism marketing dispute will fall to incoming governor
					

Incoming governor Josh Green says he will broker a deal to end the dispute over how to market tourism to Hawaii.  That's despite the Ige Administrations last-ditch effort to have the contracts rebid.




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 1, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> It's clearly not what YOU want. But I'm fine with it. Jack the taxes if that's what residents want. The locals have been on the [excrement] end of the stick for far too long. If they want to throttle tourism, I'm going to cheer them on and wish them well. I'm also fine with kicking Ironman to the curb here on Big Island. And they're tossing the men's race right off the island -- which is a good start. Good riddance to bad rubbish.


I am a resident and I have consistently said that Hawaii should raise taxes.  I am for raising the GET on everything but unprepared food.  I am for raising property taxes and having them pay for better salaries for teachers and bettter school facilities.   Both of those taxes are already in place so easily they can be raised without implementing new systems to collect them.  Setting up the $50 tourist tax will entail setting up a new system to collect it.  How much will it cost to collect it and how long will it take to implement it?


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## pedro47 (Dec 1, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Hawaii can be real and authentic but it depends on where you look.  You don't have to live stay outside in a thached Hale for it to be  a real and authentic experience.  Waikiki and the Poloneisian Cultural Center for the most part are NOT real and authentic.  Walking up to the Mausoleum where Queen Liliokolani is buried on Janauary 17th, the anniverary of the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy and walking down to the Iolani Palace with the huge crowd of Native Hawaiians is a real and authentic experience.  Listening to the Royal Hawaiian Band at the Iolani Palace on the Friday adjacent to this anniverary and hearing story and songs about the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy is a real and authentic experience.  Attending the Merry Monarch Hula Festival in the week after Easter on the Island of Hawaii is a real and authentic experience.  There are some other events that we have been to over the years where we have expereinced Hawaiians Performing free events that were real and authentic and not commercial.
> 
> One of the ways you can tell if it is real and authentic is the price.  The first 2 are free events.  The Merry Monarch is unbelievably inexpensive for the amount of entertainment during that week.  They are NOT commerical events.


On our next visit to Hawaii in 2023.. I will try  to see the real and the authentic Hawaii experiences.  I enjoy  touring the back roads of the country and experences the beautiful blue waters around the Island.


----------



## sponger76 (Dec 1, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I am a resident and I have consistently said that Hawaii should raise taxes.  I am for raising the GET on everything but unprepared food.  I am for raising property taxes and having them pay for better salaries for teachers and bettter school facilities.   Both of those taxes are already in place so easily they can be raised without implementing new systems to collect them.  Setting up the $50 tourist tax will entail setting up a new system to collect it.  How much will it cost to collect it and how long will it take to implement it?


The thing with property taxes is that a lot of local families already can barely afford to live in Hawaii. Raising property taxes just makes it harder for them to have a roof over their head. Even for the ones who can only afford to rent, because the landlords will pass along those cost increases.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 1, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> The thing with property taxes is that a lot of local families already can barely afford to live in Hawaii. Raising property taxes just makes it harder for them to have a roof over their head. Even for the ones who can only afford to rent, because the landlords will pass along those cost increases.



That is a good point, particularly the one about landlords passing along those costs.  If property taxes were raised they could also raise the exception for living on the property to offset the increase, but if it is a rental that wouldn't help. 

One of the reasons that the real estate costs are so high in Hawaii is that with the property taxes so low that absentee owners can afford to purchase expensive homes and not have the high tax carrying cost.  A million dollar condo in hawaii pays about $3K in property taxes.  On Long Island the property taxes would be $30K.  If a perspective buyer was going to have to pay that much in property taxes they may not want to buy the property for that price.

Also, the teachers in Hawaii are under paid for the very responsible and important job of educating our youth.  The families of teachers, just like other families, can barely afford to live in Hawaii.  That is one of the reasons so many of them leave.  Teachers are required to have a high level of education and their job is extremely important for the future of our youth.  They shouldn't have to struggle to afford to live in Hawaii.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 1, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> The thing with property taxes is that a lot of local families already can barely afford to live in Hawaii. Raising property taxes just makes it harder for them to have a roof over their head. Even for the ones who can only afford to rent, because the landlords will pass along those cost increases.



Especially for the ones who can only afford to rent. The best way to raise tourist fees is to raise them directly on the tourists for doing tourist-related activities -- renting cars and hotel rooms. I don't care about the optics. If Maui wants to raise fees to dissuade head count, and then do something useful with the revenue, let them. See how it goes. We've tried "giving tourists everything they want" and that isn't working.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 1, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> If a perspective buyer was going to have to pay that much in property taxes they may not want to buy the property for that price.



The prospective real estate investor doesn't care about property taxes. What's $30K in taxes on a property which doubles in value every few years? My property taxes are closer to six figures than five. Who cares? It's tripled in value since I bought it. That's pennies on the dollar. Capital gains (if I were to ever sell) would hurt far worse than property taxes -- even if Hawaii paid the highest rates in the country.

You're not thinking like a real estate investor. Rental income doesn't matter if it appreciates fast enough. Taxes don't matter if rental income is good enough. Nothing matters if appreciation beats most investment vehicles.


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## slip (Dec 1, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> That is a good point, particularly the one about landlords passing along those costs.  If property taxes were raised they could also raise the exception for living on the property to offset the increase, but if it is a rental that wouldn't help.
> 
> One of the reasons that the real estate costs are so high in Hawaii is that with the property taxes so low that absentee owners can afford to purchase expensive homes and not have the high tax carrying cost.  A million dollar condo in hawaii pays about $3K in property taxes.  On Long Island the property taxes would be $30K.  If a perspective buyer was going to have to pay that much in property taxes they may not want to buy the property for that price.
> 
> Also, the teachers in Hawaii are under paid for the very responsible and important job of educating our youth.  The families of teachers, just like other families, can barely afford to live in Hawaii.  That is one of the reasons so many of them leave.  Teachers are required to have a high level of education and their job is extremely important for the future of our youth.  They shouldn't have to struggle to afford to live in Hawaii.



And it's not just teachers.  Many jobs in Hawaii pay the same or less than on the mainland, even with the higher cost of living. 

I know my company paid a 25% pay Differential because of the higher cost of living. That was fine for me, after being established and having had worked at the company for 35 years. It probably still wouldn't have been enough for some younger employees that aren't as established as we were yet, as in our kids out of the house, home paid for and those type of things. 

It's tough living here and I don't see how some people make it work.


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## Luanne (Dec 1, 2022)

slip said:


> And it's not just teachers.  Many jobs in Hawaii pay the same or less than on the mainland, even with the higher cost of living.
> 
> I know my company paid a 25% pay Differential because of the higher cost of living. That was fine for me, after being established and having had worked at the company for 35 years. It probably still wouldn't have been enough for some younger employees that aren't as established as we were yet, as in our kids out of the house, home paid for and those type of things.
> 
> *It's tough living here and I don't see how some people make it work.*


Way back in 1970 I visited Honolulu with one of my best friends.  We met several people our age who were living in Honolulu.  They said they manged by having multiple jobs, and multiple roommates.


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## sponger76 (Dec 1, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> That is a good point, particularly the one about landlords passing along those costs.  If property taxes were raised they could also raise the exception for living on the property to offset the increase, but if it is a rental that wouldn't help.
> 
> One of the reasons that the real estate costs are so high in Hawaii is that with the property taxes so low that absentee owners can afford to purchase expensive homes and not have the high tax carrying cost.  A million dollar condo in hawaii pays about $3K in property taxes.  On Long Island the property taxes would be $30K.  If a perspective buyer was going to have to pay that much in property taxes they may not want to buy the property for that price.
> 
> Also, the teachers in Hawaii are under paid for the very responsible and important job of educating our youth.  The families of teachers, just like other families, can barely afford to live in Hawaii.  That is one of the reasons so many of them leave.  Teachers are required to have a high level of education and their job is extremely important for the future of our youth.  They shouldn't have to struggle to afford to live in Hawaii.


I'm not worried just about the teachers. Why raise taxes on other people who can barely survive just so the teachers can live better than those they are supposed to serve? If you make things more affordable for everyone instead of tailoring it and taking from everyone else to give to teachers, the teachers' cost of living will improve as well.

*edit to add: Also, low taxes are a factor but not THE main factor in high real estate prices. It's supply and demand. Lots more people/businesses want to own property in Hawaii than there is available real estate, particularly on O'ahu where the vast majority of the population resides. Cutting down on the non-residents purchasing property, especially homes (all types, not just single family), will at least help somewhat.


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## slip (Dec 1, 2022)

Luanne said:


> Way back in 1970 I visited Honolulu with one of my best friends.  We met several people our age who were living in Honolulu.  They said they manged by having multiple jobs, and multiple roommates.



That's still going on today. Along with multi-generational families in houses. It's really tough.


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## Luanne (Dec 1, 2022)

slip said:


> That's still going on today. Along with multi-generational families in houses. It's really tough.


I would imagine it is.  Prices haven't gotten any lower and I doubt salaries haven't kept up.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 1, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> I'm not worried just about the teachers. Why raise taxes on other people who can barely survive just so the teachers can live better than those they are supposed to serve? If you make things more affordable for everyone instead of tailoring it and taking from everyone else to give to teachers, the teachers' cost of living will improve as well.



100% agree. This is why my solution would be to create a Hawaii permanent fund using money raised from tourism. The best time to do this was 80 years ago. But the next best time to do this is right now. Once the fund grows to the point where it is self sustaining, start paying each family an annual stipend, much like Alaska does with their permanent fund. (They pay each citizen, including children. I don't think that's a good way forward. One check per family.)

Means-test the top third/half of the population out of the picture -- use property taxes to decide who is passed over for permanent fund money. (Nobody who lives in a $5 million house should get a check). If Hawaiians saw a direct benefit from all the tourism, they might not be so down on visitor numbers.

And, frankly, we can really soak the tourists in the beginning to kick-start the fund. If they can afford $30 for an order of tater tots, they have no right to snivel about fees.


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## davidvel (Dec 2, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> On our next visit to Hawaii in 2023.. I will try  to see the real and the authentic Hawaii experiences.  I enjoy  touring the back roads of the country and experences the beautiful blue waters around the Island.


Be careful on those back roads. According to some, those authentic locals just might despise you being there. With all the anti-tourist vitriol fomenting hate, who knows what they might do.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 2, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> I'm not worried just about the teachers. Why raise taxes on other people who can barely survive just so the teachers can live better than those they are supposed to serve? If you make things more affordable for everyone instead of tailoring it and taking from everyone else to give to teachers, the teachers' cost of living will improve as well.
> 
> *edit to add: Also, low taxes are a factor but not THE main factor in high real estate prices. It's supply and demand. Lots more people/businesses want to own property in Hawaii than there is available real estate, particularly on O'ahu where the vast majority of the population resides. Cutting down on the non-residents purchasing property, especially homes (all types, not just single family), will at least help somewhat.



The real estate taxes don't have to be raised equally on everybody.  Already there are different rates for more expensive real estate versus less expensive.  The taxes on the more expensive real estate say over $1,000,000 can be raised much more.  Also, there is an exemption for owner occupancy of a residence.  That exemption can be increased so that owner occupied real estate taxes don't go up at all.   Alot of real estate in Hawaii is second or third homes and investment property.  The taxes on that property is where the major increases should go.


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## slip (Dec 2, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I am a resident and I have consistently said that Hawaii should raise taxes.  I am for raising the GET on everything but unprepared food.  I am for raising property taxes and having them pay for better salaries for teachers and bettter school facilities.   Both of those taxes are already in place so easily they can be raised without implementing new systems to collect them.  Setting up the $50 tourist tax will entail setting up a new system to collect it.  How much will it cost to collect it and how long will it take to implement it?



Sounds like Governor Green likes your idea on no tax on food. It's one of his 5 points he want to tackle in his first 100 days. It was one of his promises about affordability. The clip below is from Hawaiinewsnow.




“The fifth priority is really, I think dealing with affordability,” Green said.

He says in his first 100 days of office he plans to propose Hawaii get rid of the tax on food and medication.

“It will carry a cost with it. We do have a surplus,” said Green. “It’s something that is the right thing to do. It’s been discussed for a long time. Those are very regressive taxes.”


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## csodjd (Dec 2, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Hawaii can be real and authentic but it depends on where you look.  You don't have to live stay outside in a thached Hale for it to be  a real and authentic experience.  Waikiki and the Poloneisian Cultural Center for the most part are NOT real and authentic.  Walking up to the Mausoleum where Queen Liliokolani is buried on Janauary 17th, the anniverary of the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy and walking down to the Iolani Palace with the huge crowd of Native Hawaiians is a real and authentic experience.  Listening to the Royal Hawaiian Band at the Iolani Palace on the Friday adjacent to this anniverary and hearing story and songs about the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy is a real and authentic experience.  Attending the Merry Monarch Hula Festival in the week after Easter on the Island of Hawaii is a real and authentic experience.  There are some other events that we have been to over the years where we have expereinced Hawaiians Performing free events that were real and authentic and not commercial.
> 
> One of the ways you can tell if it is real and authentic is the price.  The first 2 are free events.  The Merry Monarch is unbelievably inexpensive for the amount of entertainment during that week.  They are NOT commerical events.


I think at times there is confusion (or conflation) between history and reality. Hawaii is today what Hawaii is today. It may be different than what it used to be, but “authentic” is in the eye of the beholder. What most mean by “authentic“ is really just a way of saying “like it used to be.” Are all of you that cry for Hawaii to return to being “real and authentic” prepared to get rid of Costco, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, Best Buy, supermarkets, shopping malls, strip centers, and other “trappings” of modern life (like paved roads)? None of that is “authentic” (historical) in Hawaii.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 2, 2022)

davidvel said:


> Be careful on those back roads. According to some, those authentic locals just might despise you being there. With all the anti-tourist vitriol fomenting hate, who knows what they might do.



The amount of hate crimes over the past 20 years has been so low that it's not even worth mentioning. Hawaii is safer than pretty-much anywhere on the mainland. I'm less worried about violent crime there than I am here on vacation in California.

I occasionally see locals saying rude things to tourists. But more often I see tourists saying rude things to locals. Far too many visitors think that spending money on a Hawaiian vacation also gives them entitlement. The fact that locals are being squeezed out economically and forced to move to Las Vegas or Texas (where the numbers work) is a constant source of frustration. And it's a source of frustration which isn't being addressed -- except with lip service.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 2, 2022)

csodjd said:


> I think at times there is confusion (or conflation) between history and reality. Hawaii is today what Hawaii is today. It may be different than what it used to be, but “authentic” is in the eye of the beholder. What most mean by “authentic“ is really just a way of saying “like it used to be.” Are all of you that cry for Hawaii to return to being “real and authentic” prepared to get rid of Costco, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, Best Buy, supermarkets, shopping malls, strip centers, and other “trappings” of modern life (like paved roads)? None of that is “authentic” (historical) in Hawaii.



Hawaiians are upset that they can't afford to live there anymore. They're upset that their culture has been commoditized -- something now packaged and sold to tourists. And they're upset that everyone gets to enjoy their island except them -- they're too busy working to pay the bills, and it's entirely too crowded.

They have legitimate beefs. And I think it would be better to listen to them than to suggest they return to stone-age technology.


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 2, 2022)

I love Maui and all of the islands, but I just visit and never plan to move there.  As soon as people move to Hawaii, they suddenly become critical of everything having to do with tourists.  It's very hypocritical.  

I still enjoyed the Polynesian Cultural Center, even though some of you think it's not authentic.  You get some history from it.  I also liked Smith's luau better than any other on Kauai for that cultural experience.  

I like Old Lahaina Luau, too, but I always wonder what the locals who do these shows nightly really think of all of us.  They are gracious and kind, but what are they thinking behind those smiles.  

Reminds me of boarding a plane and having the flight attendant look at you as you board.  You know that smile on their faces is just plastered on because it's a job, not a lovely experience, and they don't expect you to love anything about it.  It's a way to get from one place to another.  They know it, and we know it.  

As I said before, Maui is getting what it wants, a higher-end traveler that probably arrives on a private plane or in first class and is willing to spend some money.  They will take less visitors and reap more taxes.


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 2, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Hawaiians are upset that they can't afford to live there anymore. They're upset that their culture has been commoditized -- something now packaged and sold to tourists. And they're upset that everyone gets to enjoy their island except them -- they're too busy working to pay the bills, and it's entirely too crowded.
> 
> They have legitimate beefs. And I think it would be better to listen to them than to suggest they return to stone-age technology.


Same thing in Summit County, CO, which includes Breck, Frisco, Dillon, and a lot of ski resorts.  There is a housing shortage, food is much more expensive than Denver, and  people are renting their condos and homes via VRBO for $200-300 per night, especially during ski season.  The ski slopes need employees and nowhere cheap for them to stay during ski season.  It's a problem.  

Breck and Frisco are charging more per unit to get a license to rent homes and condos.  This includes our timeshare in Frisco and the many timeshares in Breck.  For a management company like ours to get licensed to rent the entire complex, they have to pay (I think) $450 per condo, even if they only rent 1-2 weeks in the condo.  So French Ridge in Breck is managed by our management company, and if there are 30 units, they have to pay 30 X $450 to rent anything in the complex.  That comes off of the top of the net income for the HOA.  And of course there are accommodations taxes that match hotels on top of that.  

Hawaii is not the only place in the country that is having issues with housing shortages and extremely high cost of living.


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## csodjd (Dec 2, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Hawaiians are upset that they can't afford to live there anymore. They're upset that their culture has been commoditized -- something now packaged and sold to tourists. And they're upset that everyone gets to enjoy their island except them -- they're too busy working to pay the bills, and it's entirely too crowded.
> 
> They have legitimate beefs. And I think it would be better to listen to them than to suggest they return to stone-age technology.


It’s all fair concerns. It’s not unique to Hawaii. You hear that from Lake Tahoe to Hilton Head. And countless places around the world. (Venice comes right to mind.) But they also can’t have their cake and eat it too. It is that tourism that generates the money to pave the roads. Listening is easy. Suggesting solutions — solutions that solve a problem without creating a different one — that’s a lot harder.

It is often the outcome of the politicians they put in office. HHV is about to build another 500-room hotel. Why? Well, it was approved through the political process, because the tax revenue cannot be resisted.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 2, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Hawaii is not the only place in the country that is having issues with housing shortages and extremely high cost of living.





csodjd said:


> It’s all fair concerns. It’s not unique to Hawaii. You hear that from Lake Tahoe to Hilton Head. And countless places around the world. (Venice comes right to mind.) But they also can’t have their cake and eat it too. It is that tourism that generates the money to pave the roads. Listening is easy. Suggesting solutions — solutions that solve a problem without creating a different one — that’s a lot harder.



The difference with island problems is there is no "hinterlands" to move to. There are already lots of people who live on one side of the island and work on the other side because that's the only way the numbers work.  When visitors outnumber residents, that's a problem. 

Also, there's the whole issue of Hawaiian culture, which is more than just hula competitions during Merrie Monarch. Since Hawaiians are starting to feel like a conquered people as opposed to "fellow Americans," I don't think improvement is likely in the near future.


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## csodjd (Dec 2, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> The difference with island problems is there is no "hinterlands" to move to. There are already lots of people who live on one side of the island and work on the other side because that's the only way the numbers work.  When visitors outnumber residents, that's a problem.
> 
> Also, there's the whole issue of Hawaiian culture, which is more than just hula competitions during Merrie Monarch. Since Hawaiians are starting to feel like a conquered people as opposed to "fellow Americans," I don't think improvement is likely in the near future.


And so what are your solutions? 

As an employer I had a policy… don’t bring me a problem or complaint without a solution. I may not agree with your solution, but if you can’t even propose one then my interest in your complaint drops dramatically, because now it is just a whine.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 2, 2022)

csodjd said:


> I think at times there is confusion (or conflation) between history and reality. Hawaii is today what Hawaii is today. It may be different than what it used to be, but “authentic” is in the eye of the beholder. What most mean by “authentic“ is really just a way of saying “like it used to be.” Are all of you that cry for Hawaii to return to being “real and authentic” prepared to get rid of Costco, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, Best Buy, supermarkets, shopping malls, strip centers, and other “trappings” of modern life (like paved roads)? None of that is “authentic” (historical) in Hawaii.



I understand and agree with what you are saying.  I have talked story with Native Hawaiians who want the Hotels and US Govenrment to give back all of the land that they have and have built on to the Native Hawaiians or if they keep it pay rent to the native Hawaiians.  That is not going to happen.  

While I am in total simpathy with the Native Hawaiian thinking that the US Military and Government did and shouldn't have gotten involved with the overthrow of the Monarch in on Janauray 17, 1893.   I have this thought about history.  If the Monarach had continued into the 20th Century and Japan had the same designs on taking over islands in the Pacific as did happen in 1941 and 1942.  What would the Hawaiian Islands had to endure.   For example like the Philipines had to endure.  Would the US have gotten into the war at all if there wasn't a Pearl Harbor Fleet to attack?  

Just thinking about how history could have been significantly changed.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 2, 2022)

csodjd said:


> And so what are your solutions?


Reduce tourist numbers by the third that Maui residents are pushing for. If it were up to me -- by removing resorts or converting them to long-term rental housing. Maui is going for "tourist fees," which isn't going to limit tourism by nearly enough. Everyone who continues visiting will necessarily have to pay more. And property taxes on short-term accommodation will need to go up by at least a third to cover the shortfall -- I have said this many times.

Residents need far higher minimum wages -- $15/hr is laughable anywhere in the state. And, yes, that's going to push prices even higher.

And finally, the counties need to approve more apartment complexes -- the last one in Waikaloa filled up basically instantly. Out-of-state investors aren't going to snap these up. And it provides basic housing near where the jobs are.

I've said this many times. In reply, it's always a bunch of "as long as the prices don't go up for me personally..."

EDIT -- and I have laid out plans for a tourism-funded Hawaii Permanent Fund much like Alaska's oil-funded Permanent Fund. If Hawaiian workers saw direct economic benefit to tourism, there wouldn't be nearly as much friction.

The reason people stop loving tourism when they move to Hawaii is the curtain is pulled back. Residents finally see what's going on behind the scenes - where they don't have a small army of people working like crazy to make their stay enjoyable.


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## vacationtime1 (Dec 2, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> *Reduce tourist numbers by the third that Maui residents are pushing for. If it were up to me -- by removing resorts or converting them to long-term rental housing. *Maui is going for "tourist fees," which isn't going to limit tourism by nearly enough. Everyone who continues visiting will necessarily have to pay more. And property taxes on short-term accommodation will need to go up by at least a third to cover the shortfall -- I have said this many times.
> 
> Residents need far higher minimum wages -- $15/hr is laughable anywhere in the state. And, yes, that's going to push prices even higher.
> 
> ...


How does your plan to build five new short-term rental units fit into this?

I agree with much of what you say about over-tourism, but if the goal is to reduce the number of tourists, the total number of "tourist accomodations" must be reduced.  Anyone wanting to build new units should be required to purchase and take out of commission the same number of existing units if the plan is to work.


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## csodjd (Dec 2, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Reduce tourist numbers by the third that Maui residents are pushing for. If it were up to me -- by removing resorts or converting them to long-term rental housing. Maui is going for "tourist fees," which isn't going to limit tourism by nearly enough. Everyone who continues visiting will necessarily have to pay more. And property taxes on short-term accommodation will need to go up by at least a third to cover the shortfall -- I have said this many times.
> 
> Residents need far higher minimum wages -- $15/hr is laughable anywhere in the state. And, yes, that's going to push prices even higher.
> 
> ...


What I hear is a LOT of government, government intervention, regulation, price setting, etc. Basically a government regulatory takeover. Feels not very ”American.” I’m not sure that is really what people in Hawaii want. “Affordable” housing is an elusive thing unless it is owned and operated by the government and I’m pretty sure THAT is not what Hawaiian’s want. 

The reality is that tourism is Hawaii’s primary product. It is what the state has most of to “sell” to others. It is the state’s primary industry and according to online sources generates 21% of Hawaii’s GDP. That’s not likely to change. 

On the flip side, the reality is also that most of the goods consumed in Hawaii are expensive because they are made elsewhere and transportation to Hawaii is expensive. So most widgets cost more in Hawaii than on the mainland. 

I think there is an additional challenge that Hawaii faces, and that is that a large part of the state is rooted in the military. That’s not a “free market” in terms of salaries, and it generates a lot of people living on a fixed income. I belong to a private club on Oahu. There is a constant push-tug battle created by the desire to spend more to make the club nicer (and just keep up with the rising cost of maintenance) and the inability of members on fixed income pensions to afford higher dues.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 2, 2022)

csodjd said:


> The reality is that tourism is Hawaii’s primary product. It is what the state has most of to “sell” to others. It is the state’s primary industry and according to online sources generates 21% of Hawaii’s GDP. That’s not likely to change.



What can change is visitor numbers -- it is far better to have one visitor who spends $1,000,000 than it is to have 1,000,000 who spend $1 each. 
That's the scheme Maui is attempting -- less numbers, same revenue. I wish them well in their endeavor. I'm largely removed from tourist problems (except Ironman, which is appalling). If Hawaii also wants to throttle tourism like Maui, fine. If not, that's fine too. I have a feeling that if Maui succeeds, all the islands will follow suit.


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## csodjd (Dec 2, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> What can change is visitor numbers -- it is far better to have one visitor who spends $1,000,000 than it is to have 1,000,000 who spend $1 each.
> That's the scheme Maui is attempting -- less numbers, same revenue. I wish them well in their endeavor. I'm largely removed from tourist problems (except Ironman, which is appalling). If Hawaii also wants to throttle tourism like Maui, fine. If not, that's fine too. I have a feeling that if Maui succeeds, all the islands will follow suit.


The Big Island, it seems, is less at risk of being affected because, well, it’s big and the resorts are sort of off on their own. Maui tourism is so compressed into two areas it is a lot more challenging I‘m sure. The big problem is that governments are notoriously bad at doing most things well and so if residents are looking for the County government to protect them, disappointment is likely. 

I‘m not sure it really IS better to have one visitor spend $1M. I think it is best to find the happy spot where you have a lot of visitors, but not more than the infrastructure and community can handle, and that number generates the maximum revenue to the community, plenty of jobs, etc. If one could blink their eyes and tomorrow the hotels and timeshares in Wai’alae and Kaanapali and Kapalua were gone, would Maui be a better place? I don’t think so. There would be massive unemployment, people would be homeless in no time, small businesses that thrive on tourists would go under, there would be no money for fire and police and schools, it would be an economic disaster.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 2, 2022)

csodjd said:


> 1) I think it is best to find the happy spot where you have a lot of visitors, but not more than the infrastructure and community can handle, and that number generates the maximum revenue to the community, plenty of jobs, etc.
> 
> 2) If one could blink their eyes and tomorrow the hotels and timeshares in Wai’alae and Kaanapali and Kapalua were gone, would Maui be a better place? I don’t think so.


[Numbers added for clarity.]

1) I think we're well past the "more than the infrastructure and community can handle" on Maui. And we're approaching that on most other islands -- including the touristy parts of Big Island. (One more straw would break the camel's back.)

2) I'm not suggesting ALL the resorts on Maui, or even parts of Maui go away. But if Maui really wants 1/3 less visitors, they'll have to remove 1/3 of the accommodations -- now or eventually. I've suggested an eminent-domain lottery. Just keep pulling names out of a hat until short-term rooms are down by a third. That will of course spur AirBnB investment. So something will have to be done about that, too.

My point hasn't changed in months -- if Maui wants to reduce head count by one third, there will be pain on the part of the rest of the tourists. That's roughly 70,000 people a month who are restricted from visiting. I think they should go the Alaska/St. Bart's route -- high end, boutique tourism and a trust funded by tourist revenues which benefits the workers.


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## csodjd (Dec 2, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> [Numbers added for clarity.]
> 
> 1) I think we're well past the "more than the infrastructure and community can handle" on Maui. And we're approaching that on most other islands -- including the touristy parts of Big Island. (One more straw would break the camel's back.)
> 
> ...


I don’t know much about eminent domain, but, even if the County could afford it, I don’t believe you can use it to reduce tourism by taking over huge hotel or timeshare complexes that you allowed to be built.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 2, 2022)

csodjd said:


> I don’t know much about eminent domain, but, even if the County could afford it, I don’t believe you can use it to reduce tourism by taking over huge hotel or timeshare complexes that you allowed to be built.



I didn't allow them to be built in the first place.
But the pendulum has swung from the "Hawaii Tourist Development Council" for marketing to "Native Hawaiian We're Sick of Your [Excrement]" marketing.
We'll see. I keep an eye on Maui because they're the bellweather.


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## csodjd (Dec 2, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> I didn't allow them to be built in the first place.
> But the pendulum has swung from the "Hawaii Tourist Development Council" for marketing to "Native Hawaiian We're Sick of Your [Excrement]" marketing.
> We'll see. I keep an eye on Maui because they're the bellweather.


I obviously didn’t mean you. But they can‘t be built without several levels of governmental approval.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 3, 2022)

csodjd said:


> I obviously didn’t mean you. But they can‘t be built without several levels of governmental approval.



And government makes mistakes, which must then be rectified. Maui, and much of the state, is asking for less events and less numbers. Government is going to be slow to react -- but it is clearly starting to react. Switching to a new marketing strategy, tossing Ironman men in 2023 and Maui's proposed fees are just the beginning.


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## pedro47 (Dec 3, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Hawaiians are upset that they can't afford to live there anymore. They're upset that their culture has been commoditized -- something now packaged and sold to tourists. And they're upset that everyone gets to enjoy their island except them -- they're too busy working to pay the bills, and it's entirely too crowded.
> 
> They have legitimate beefs. And I think it would be better to listen to them than to suggest they return to stone-age technology.


Thanks, I have a better perspective now what is happening in Hawaii.


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## csodjd (Dec 3, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> And government makes mistakes, which must then be rectified. Maui, and much of the state, is asking for less events and less numbers. Government is going to be slow to react -- but it is clearly starting to react. Switching to a new marketing strategy, tossing Ironman men in 2023 and Maui's proposed fees are just the beginning.


Yes, they do make mistakes. They (government) also are quite notorious for swinging pendulums waaaayyyy to far one way or the other, resulting in bad outcomes and ordinary people paying the price. Government is NOT good at anticipating outcomes or having a plan.


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## pedro47 (Dec 3, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> I didn't allow them to be built in the first place.
> But the pendulum has swung from the "Hawaii Tourist Development Council" for marketing to "Native Hawaiian We're Sick of Your [Excrement]" marketing.
> We'll see. I keep an eye on Maui because they're the bellweather.


Wow! This is very interesting.


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## pedro47 (Dec 3, 2022)

What is the average home value for a native Hawaiian and what is the average cost for a new home built in Maui 2022?


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## ScoopKona (Dec 3, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> What is the average home value for a native Hawaiian and what is the average cost for a new home built in Maui 2022?



On Maui, the average home sale is almost $1 million. And half a million buys a dilapidated place in the middle of nowhere in need of leveling and replacing. Check Realtor dot com.

When I was searching for a house, it took me five years of searching. Every day during my lunch break for five years -- scanning real estate listings until the farm popped up.


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## pedro47 (Dec 3, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> On Maui, the average home sale is almost $1 million. And half a million buys a dilapidated place in the middle of nowhere in need of leveling and replacing. Check Realtor dot com.
> 
> When I was searching for a house, it took me five years of searching. Every day during my lunch break for five years -- scanning real estate listings until the farm popped up.


At that new home price even stateside that will probably eliminate 80% of the population,  especially first times buyers.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 3, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> At that new home price even stateside that will probably eliminate 80% of the population,  especially first times buyers.


I think that at that home price that would eliminate about 95% of the population.  I know our income is over $150K/year and we couldn't afford a million dollar home here in Hawaii.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 3, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> [Numbers added for clarity.]
> 
> 1) I think we're well past the "more than the infrastructure and community can handle" on Maui. And we're approaching that on most other islands -- including the touristy parts of Big Island. (One more straw would break the camel's back.)
> 
> ...



Well are far as straw breaking the camel's back:  We know that Hilton Grand Vacations is building a 12 buidling complex in Kihei and a new timeshare on the opposite side of Waikiki from the HHV.  .  Hilton Hotels is builiding 500 room Hotel in the HHV.  HGVC also has been expandiing the Waikiola Timeshare Complex every few years and there is more land they own there to building more.  

However, going back to the title of this thread:
Maui Hotels Have the Highest Rates But the Lowest Occupancy​Isn't that a movement in the direction that you want?  Simply a combination of that and raising the GET but eliminating the GET on unprepared food, which someone said that the new Governor wants to do, would certainly make it more expensive for tourists to come to specifically Maui and Hawaii in general.  I believe the Legislature passed the bill for the minium wage will go up to $18/hour by 2025 or so that is another Govenment step in the right direction.  In view of all of the negatives, I am very postive on the future of Hawaii.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 3, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> At that new home price even stateside that will probably eliminate 80% of the population,  especially first times buyers.



Prices are higher in Maui than other neighbor islands. There are programs for first time buyers. But they fall far short -- the economic reality is that home ownership isn't in the cards except for high-wage earning families.



Tamaradarann said:


> Isn't that a movement in the direction that you want?  Simply a combination of that and raising the GET but eliminating the GET on unprepared food, which someone said that the new Governor wants to do, would certainly make it more expensive for tourists to come to specifically Maui and Hawaii in general.  I believe the Legislature passed the bill for the minium wage will go up to $18/hour by 2025 or so that is another Govenment step in the right direction.  In view of all of the negatives, I am very postive on the future of Hawaii.



$18 is still too low to make a living. Stupidly low. Like, "what are they thinking? Don't they live here, too?" too low. Even without payroll taxes taken out that's still less than $3K a month. That doesn't cover both rent and food. Let alone anything else.

$18/hr would have made sense 20 years ago. But today? It's not enough for one person to live without roommates and a lot of side-hustling. Inflation just keeps chugging along. So when that increase finally happens, it's already too late.

And here's the thing, as the old uncles and aunties pass away, their property is largely being sold, not handed down. That means investors grab up more and more. Investors offer cash and more than list price -- it's a bad financial move not to sell to them.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 3, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Prices are higher in Maui than other neighbor islands. There are programs for first time buyers. But they fall far short -- the economic reality is that home ownership isn't in the cards except for high-wage earning families.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't disagree that $18/hour is still too low to live on in Hawaii.  However, everything needs to be put in perspective.  The minimum wage was I beleive about $10/hour before!  The Federal minimum wage is about $7/hour.  So this is progress even though it may not be enough.  Furthermore, that minimum wage is usually for unskilled uneducated workers.  We should be striving for the future generation to NOT be in that working category.

That brings me back to my education thinking that I put forth before.  Hawaii needs to be placing a greater emphasis on getting its youth to get more education.  Good education where there is a need.  Doctors, Nurses, Medical Technicans, Teachers, Technologists, Skilled Tradesworkers.  Parents shouldn't let their children settle on a minimum wage job.  That is OK while your going to school but the focus and goal should be to get the education to fill a needed job at a much higher salary level.  Furthermore, to retain those skilled workers the salaries for those positions should be better than the other states since the cost of living is higher than the other states.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 3, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Doctors, Nurses, Medical Technicans, Teachers, Technologists, Skilled Tradesworkers.  Parents shouldn't let their children settle on a minimum wage job.  That is OK while your going to school but the focus and goal should be to get the education to fill a needed job at a much higher salary level.



Not everyone is capable of passing organic chemistry to become physicians, or can install a roof. Teachers is a particularly bad example because they need to obtain a master's degree and then get paid bupkis.

The minimum wage needs to be enough that a person can scratch out an existence -- it's not just for teenagers working their first job. That's the kind of thinking that got us into this position in the first place.


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## slip (Dec 3, 2022)

This article calls Hawaii's tourism recession proof. I don't know if I agree with that. I thought past recessions had slow downs.









						Hawaii Travel Is Recession-Proof According To State
					

Hawaii tourism has exceeded all expectations in 2022 as the year ends. What's on the horizon is equally unexpected.



					beatofhawaii.com


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## csodjd (Dec 3, 2022)

slip said:


> This article calls Hawaii's tourism recession proof. I don't know if I agree with that. I thought past recessions had slow downs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We’ll probably find out next year.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 4, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Not everyone is capable of passing organic chemistry to become physicians, or can install a roof. Teachers is a particularly bad example because they need to obtain a master's degree and then get paid bupkis.
> 
> The minimum wage needs to be enough that a person can scratch out an existence -- it's not just for teenagers working their first job. That's the kind of thinking that got us into this position in the first place.


I agree not everyone can pass organic chemistry or install a roof.  However, there are many other needed trades other than roofing.   Furthermore, there are many jobs like home health aid or home care aid that are desparately needed and don't take a degree or skilled  labor but they are poorly paid.  Those desparately needed jobs need to pay significatnly more than minimum wage to get people to take those jobs rather than the easier more glamorous jobs that people may take to just "scratch out an existence".   Scratching out an existence sounds like one step above being homeless.  Parents need to guide the children to strive to do better than just "Scratch out an existence."  Better teachers in addition to good parental guidance is needed for our youth.

I think that teachers are a partiuclarly good example of a very needed job that should be paid more to keep good people doing it in Hawaii.  You don't have to convince me that teachers are poorly paid in Hawaii I made that assertion earlier in this discussion and others critisized me for wanting their salaries to be higher.


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## sponger76 (Dec 4, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I agree not everyone can pass organic chemistry or install a roof.  However, there are many other needed trades other than roofing.   Furthermore, there are many jobs like home health aid or home care aid that are desparately needed and don't take a degree or skilled  labor but they are poorly paid.  Those desparately needed jobs need to pay significatnly more than minimum wage to get people to take those jobs rather than the easier more glamorous jobs that people may take to just "scratch out an existence".   Scratching out an existence sounds like one step above being homeless.  Parents need to guide the children to strive to do better than just "Scratch out an existence."  Better teachers in addition to good parental guidance is needed for our youth.
> 
> I think that teachers are a partiuclarly good example of a very needed job that should be paid more to keep good people doing it in Hawaii.  You don't have to convince me that teachers are poorly paid in Hawaii I made that assertion earlier in this discussion and others critisized me for wanting their salaries to be higher.


You weren't criticized for wanting their salaries to be higher. You were criticized for wanting their salaries to be higher at the expense of everybody else.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 4, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> You weren't criticized for wanting their salaries to be higher. You were criticized for wanting their salaries to be higher at the expense of everybody else.


The first issue is should the salaries for teachers be higher.  I feel they should be and so does ScoopKona.  Then by definition when you raise salaries for some group of people and others don't get the same raise then you are advantaging some group and placing others are at a realative disadvantage.  Since the Governor is not going to pay teachers more out of his own pocket, the only way to get more funding to raise teacher's salaries is tax increases.  The property tax in Hawaii is so low compared to other areas of the United States that pay their teachers better so you could raise the property tax to pay teachers better.  You could raise other taxes to pay for the higher teacher salaries but.....

Those taught by teachers in a location are residents of that location.  Therefore, the logical place to fund schools is the property tax.  Hawaii doesn't fund education thru the property tax.  Furthermore, there is an elitist class system that Hawaii has in their overall education system which is detrimental to lower income residents and in particular Native Hawaiians.  The higher income people can pay for and send their children to private schools.  Therefore, those that attend public schools are only the lower income people of which is made up of a significant number of Native Hawaiians.  Since the higher income people don't send their children to public schools they don't care if public schools are well funded and the teachers salaries are adaquate to retain good teachers.  They care about private schools.


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## sponger76 (Dec 4, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> The first issue is should the salaries for teachers be higher.  I feel they should be and so does ScoopKona.  Then by definition when you raise salaries for some group of people and others don't get the same raise then you are advantaging some group and placing others are at a realative disadvantage.  Since the Governor is not going to pay teachers more out of his own pocket, the only way to get more funding to raise teacher's salaries is tax increases.  The property tax in Hawaii is so low compared to other areas of the United States that pay their teachers better so you could raise the property tax to pay teachers better.  You could raise other taxes to pay for the higher teacher salaries but.....
> 
> Those taught by teachers in a location are residents of that location.  Therefore, the logical place to fund schools is the property tax.  Hawaii doesn't fund education thru the property tax.  Furthermore, there is an elitist class system that Hawaii has in their overall education system which is detrimental to lower income residents and in particular Native Hawaiians.  The higher income people can pay for and send their children to private schools.  Therefore, those that attend public schools are only the lower income people of which is made up of a significant number of Native Hawaiians.  Since the higher income people don't send their children to public schools they don't care if public schools are well funded and the teachers salaries are adaquate to retain good teachers.  They care about private schools.


I've been in Hawaii before when teachers went on strike and ended up winning large pay raises. Did they do a better job teaching? No, everything was the same. Did the people they serve end up having better lives? No. So while what teachers do is an important job that I appreciate, I don't think it merits advantaging them by taking even more from other Hawaii residents. The way to make teachers lives better is to find ways to improve all Hawaii residents lives. That means finding ways to make housing and other goods as affordable as possible, or by finding revenue from non-Hawaii residents.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 4, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> That means finding ways to make housing and other goods as affordable as possible, or by finding revenue from non-Hawaii residents.



We're in 100% agreement on this point. Hawaii isn't Hawaii without Hawaiians. And they should be able to live here, regardless of what they want to do as a career. 

My wife and I were just talking about this as we drive around California on vacation -- Hawaii is what happens when "the reservation" is the nicest land in the country. I think the only way forward is to build a lot more housing -- either housing that investors don't want; or are absolutely forbidden to ever own. An affordable place to live is the biggest problem. Solving that takes care of many other problems at a stroke.


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## csodjd (Dec 4, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> We're in 100% agreement on this point. Hawaii isn't Hawaii without Hawaiians. And they should be able to live here, regardless of what they want to do as a career.
> 
> My wife and I were just talking about this as we drive around California on vacation -- Hawaii is what happens when "the reservation" is the nicest land in the country. I think the only way forward is to build a lot more housing -- either housing that investors don't want; or are absolutely forbidden to ever own. An affordable place to live is the biggest problem. Solving that takes care of many other problems at a stroke.


You seem to be advocating for a tailored form of socialism. Definitely a "plan of attack" that is far removed from the burdens of capitalism. 

Your first line begs the question. What if they don't want a career, or even to work hard? Where do you draw the (arbitrary) lines? You, over there, good, you're working hard enough to deserve "affordable" housing... but you, on the left, you're not working hard enough. Is that how it would work?


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## csodjd (Dec 4, 2022)

Back to the original issue for a moment. It seems that mother nature may have a say in handling tourism in Maui all by herself, without touching taxes at all....









						Famous Maui Beach, Kaanapali, Disappears Due to Erosion; Some Call for Relocation of Resorts
					

One of the most popular and famous beaches in the United States, if not the world, is disappearing: Kaanapali Beach on the Hawaiian Island of Maui has...




					weatherboy.com


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## slip (Dec 4, 2022)

csodjd said:


> Back to the original issue for a moment. It seems that mother nature may have a say in handling tourism in Maui all by herself, without touching taxes at all....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This realtor on Maui just put out a video on it yesterday.  He walks right up to where the sidewalk stops.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 4, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> I've been in Hawaii before when teachers went on strike and ended up winning large pay raises. Did they do a better job teaching? No, everything was the same. Did the people they serve end up having better lives? No. So while what teachers do is an important job that I appreciate, I don't think it merits advantaging them by taking even more from other Hawaii residents. The way to make teachers lives better is to find ways to improve all Hawaii residents lives. That means finding ways to make housing and other goods as affordable as possible, or by finding revenue from non-Hawaii residents.


I DON'T AGREE.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 4, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> We're in 100% agreement on this point. Hawaii isn't Hawaii without Hawaiians. And they should be able to live here, regardless of what they want to do as a career.
> 
> My wife and I were just talking about this as we drive around California on vacation -- Hawaii is what happens when "the reservation" is the nicest land in the country. I think the only way forward is to build a lot more housing -- either housing that investors don't want; or are absolutely forbidden to ever own. An affordable place to live is the biggest problem. Solving that takes care of many other problems at a stroke.



On the issue of Housing and a related topic of Hawaii Homelands I totally agree with you.  Hawaiian Homeland grants seem to take forever.  Generations that have applied for grants have died and their children have died waiting for the land.  Building affordable housing instead of multimillion dollar house and condos is another initative that I have very much in favor of.  Scaling the real estate taxes not only on property value but on income is another thing that I favor to enable people with lower incomes to buy and stay in homes.

Raising the property taxes, with the tax safe guards of lower property values and lower income that I stated above. on high priced real estate, investment real estate, absentee out of state owners, high income people will help in these initiative while raising more income.

The comment that they should be able to live here, regardless of what they want to do as a career opens up so many questions and qualifications.  What is a career?  Is it enough to work part time?  Our son is a consultant.  At times he is busy.  At times he is not.  Is working once in a while enough of a career?  Is it Ok to be a artist but never sell a painting or sell one once a year?   How about a surf instructor who gets a client once in a while?  In an extreme case, my husband wanted to be the manager of the NY Mets when he was young.  He never made it.  If he was to wait for that opportunity instead of becoming an Engineer would that have made the qualtification of what he wanted to do as a career?  Who is the judge?

On the expenditure side, does one have a family to support or want a family?  It is much financially feasible to live in Hawaii as a single person in a room or a studio rather than a 3 or more bedroom house or condo.  Perhaps that may need to be influential in career decision making.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 4, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> I've been in Hawaii before when teachers went on strike and ended up winning large pay raises. Did they do a better job teaching? No, everything was the same. Did the people they serve end up having better lives? No. So while what teachers do is an important job that I appreciate, I don't think it merits advantaging them by taking even more from other Hawaii residents. The way to make teachers lives better is to find ways to improve all Hawaii residents lives. That means finding ways to make housing and other goods as affordable as possible, or by finding revenue from non-Hawaii residents.



After the teacher's strike they were not given sufficient pay raises and they have to pay a significant amount for their health insurance.  Teachers on Long Island make about twice what teachers make in Hawaii and their health insurance is free while they are working and if they retire in the system.  Also, teacher's retirement is based on their income, so after teachers retire their income continues to be low even though they gave the best part of their lives to teaching the youth of our future.


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## lynne (Dec 4, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> After the teacher's strike they were not given sufficient pay raises and they have to pay a significant amount for their health insurance.  Teachers on Long Island make about twice what teachers make in Hawaii and their health insurance is free while they are working and if they retire in the system.  Also, teacher's retirement is based on their income, so after teachers retire their income continues to be low even though they gave the best part of their lives to teaching the youth of our future.


You cannot keep using Long Island as a benchmark for teacher salaries.  If you want to be fair, compare each state with cost of living and you will see an entirely different picture compared to other professions:









						Which states pay teachers the most and least? - USAFacts
					

Overall, New York and Massachusetts K-12 teachers are paid more, relative to other earners and cost of living, than teachers in the rest of the country. Public teacher pay is the lowest in Florida and Arizona.




					usafacts.org
				




In comparisons to other states, Hawaii teacher compensation is ranked in the top third:



			Teacher Pay by State 2022


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## csodjd (Dec 4, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> absentee out of state owners


That would be unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment. States cannot treat residents of other states differently or otherwise burden the right to travel freely among the states.


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## vacationtime1 (Dec 4, 2022)

csodjd said:


> That would be unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment. States cannot treat residents of other states differently or otherwise burden the right to travel freely among the states.


It all depends on how the statute is written.

A flat tax on non-Hawaii tourists such as the $50/pp suggested could be seen as affecting the right of a non-Hawaii resident to travel to Hawaii and therefore violate our constitutional right to travel (yes, the U.S. Constitution protects mainlanders' right to travel to Hawaii).

A differential property tax, however (such as taxing second homes at a much higher rate) would not have the same result because it is possible (and likely) that Honolulu residents have second homes on one of the outer islands.  _Ergo_, it would not be discriminatory against out-of-state residents because it applies to all second homes.


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## csodjd (Dec 4, 2022)

vacationtime1 said:


> It all depends on how the statute is written.
> 
> A flat tax on non-Hawaii tourists such as the $50/pp suggested could be seen as affecting the right of a non-Hawaii resident to travel to Hawaii and therefore violate our constitutional right to travel (yes, the U.S. Constitution protects mainlanders' right to travel to Hawaii).
> 
> A differential property tax, however (such as taxing second homes at a much higher rate) would not have the same result because it is possible (and likely) that Honolulu residents have second homes on one of the outer islands.  _Ergo_, it would not be discriminatory against out-of-state residents because it applies to all second homes.


That would be unworkable. What’s a ”second home?” How do you police that? 

It also reminds me of the many attempts to sidestep illegal discrimination by giving it an appearance of non-discrimination purpose or language that appears no–discriminatory on its face knowing fully that it will have a discriminatory effect. Attempts are made all the time to do that to cover for race, gender, and age discrimination. Doesn’t work. 

Of course there is also the pragmatic problem — who do you think donates more money to politicians in Hawaii, the wealthy (that can afford a second home on another island) or hourly wage workers? 

The regulatory power Hawaii has in its toolbox that would not be hard to use, if they were wanted to use it, is zoning. They don’t HAVE to approve building new hotels (like the one they just approved at HHV) or expanding exiting facilities. They can also control density. And, apart from taxes, they can impose FEES on  facilities that are central to tourism, which will be passed on to those tourists. But these things all have adverse consequences on employment and governmental revenue.


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## sponger76 (Dec 4, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I DON'T AGREE.


So, you think teachers should be a special high and mighty upper class, held up above the unwashed masses who should be paying them tribute?


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## ScoopKona (Dec 4, 2022)

csodjd said:


> That would be unworkable. What’s a ”second home?” How do you police that?



Easy. Jack property taxes through the roof. And then use the homestead exemption and low-income housing exemption to bring them back to Earth. Watch how many people get Hawaii drivers licenses and register to vote if that happens.
Both exemptions already exist.


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## sponger76 (Dec 4, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> After the teacher's strike they were not given sufficient pay raises and they have to pay a significant amount for their health insurance.  Teachers on Long Island make about twice what teachers make in Hawaii and their health insurance is free while they are working and if they retire in the system.  Also, teacher's retirement is based on their income, so after teachers retire their income continues to be low even though they gave the best part of their lives to teaching the youth of our future.


It was sufficient enough to put them a fair amount above the average income in the state at that time.


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## vacationtime1 (Dec 4, 2022)

csodjd said:


> *That would be unworkable. What’s a ”second home?” How do you police that?*
> 
> It also reminds me of the many attempts to sidestep illegal discrimination by giving it an appearance of non-discrimination purpose or language that appears no–discriminatory on its face knowing fully that it will have a discriminatory effect. Attempts are made all the time to do that to cover for race, gender, and age discrimination. Doesn’t work.
> 
> ...


Your getting into drafting issues; the answer has to do with where one lives for more than 183 days/year.  And in many ways, it is self-policing.  Anyone who claims their Hawaii vacation home to be their primary residence will get to pay Hawaii income taxes (and may also get to pay income taxes where they really live; high income tax states like California and NY make it their business to track high income people who claim to have moved out of state to verify that they actually did relinquish their former residence).


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## csodjd (Dec 4, 2022)

vacationtime1 said:


> Your getting into drafting issues; the answer has to do with where one lives for more than 183 days/year.  And in many ways, it is self-policing.  Anyone who claims their Hawaii vacation home to be their primary residence will get to pay Hawaii income taxes (and may also get to pay income taxes where they really live; high income tax states like California and NY make it their business to track high income people who claim to have moved out of state to verify that they actually did relinquish their former residence).


Still would not work. I am getting into “drafting issues” because you cannot draft a law whose purpose or effect is to place an obstacle or burden on the right to interstate travel or that favors one set of property owners or residents over another set based on their travel or residence in another state. You COULD do it with respect to foreign travel or residents, but not American. Those are always thrown out by the courts and have been for decades.

That aside, it is not the owner of a second home that comes to Hawaii 3-4 times a year, or spends the winter at their resort home in Kona, that is the “tourist” problem you’re trying to address. I have four friends with $5M+ homes at Kohanaiki. They spend Nov-March over there, They play golf, go out to dinner, go to Costco, etc. They don’t do any tourist stuff. They pay hefty taxes on those grossly overpriced homes, and crazy dues for their CC. They pay for their pool service and gardening year round. That is who you WANT supporting your economy and employing your residents.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 4, 2022)

vacationtime1 said:


> A differential property tax, however (such as taxing second homes at a much higher rate) would not have the same result because it is possible (and likely) that Honolulu residents have second homes on one of the outer islands.  _Ergo_, it would not be discriminatory against out-of-state residents because it applies to all second homes.





csodjd said:


> That would be unworkable. What’s a ”second home?” How do you police that?



Actually, Beaufort County, South Carolina does just what @vacationtime1 is suggesting. As an owner of a condo on Hilton Head Island, but with a primary residence outside of the county (actually in the Charlotte, NC area), we pay a much higher property tax assessment rate than a full-time HHI resident. Our taxes on our condo are about 40% higher than the taxes on our primary home in the Charlotte area, even though the current tax value of the condo is 40% less than the Charlotte home. (Although, the price appreciation of the coastal properties has been so high over the last three years that the condo now may have a market value almost as much as our Charlotte house, but the 2022 tax assessment value is still based on old 2019 property values. When the new property re-valuations come into play for 2023, our HHI property tax is going to skyrocket. It may be double what we pay for our permanent residence in NC. Ugh!)

The way Beaufort County decides who pays the higher rate is a basket of things like your drivers license address, where you pay taxes and vote, etc. All the things you need to do to establish legal residency. We have some neighbors who own a house on HHI but who also had a house in our neighborhood. They recently sold their Charlotte house and are now renting an apartment here in preparation for a planned 2023 retirement to their HHI house. They are in the process of changing their drivers licenses, tax filings, and voter registration to their HHI home so they can qualify for the much lower resident property tax rate.


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## csodjd (Dec 4, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Actually, Beaufort County, South Carolina does just what @vacationtime1 is suggesting. As an owner of a condo on Hilton Head Island, but with a primary residence outside of the county (actually in the Charlotte, NC area), we pay a much higher property tax assessment rate than a full-time HHI resident. Our taxes on our condo are about 40% higher than the taxes on our primary home in the Charlotte area, even though the current tax value of the condo is 40% less than the Charlotte home. (Although, the price appreciation of the coastal properties has been so high over the last three years that the condo now may have a market value almost as much as our Charlotte house, but the 2022 tax assessment value is still based on old 2019 property values. When the new property re-valuations come into play for 2023, our HHI property tax is going to skyrocket. It may be double what we pay for our permanent residence in NC. Ugh!)
> 
> The way Beaufort County decides who pays the higher rate is a basket of things like your drivers license address, where you pay taxes and vote, etc. All the things you need to do to establish legal residency. We have some neighbors who own a house on HHI but who also had a house in our neighborhood. They recently sold their Charlotte house and are now renting an apartment here in preparation for a planned 2023 retirement to their HHI house. They are in the process of changing their drivers licenses, tax filings, and voter registration to their HHI home so they can qualify for the much lower resident property tax rate.


Different facts. That is at the County level. The Constitution doesn’t bar a County doing this from those living in other Counties. It is only at the state level that you run afoul of the 14th amendment. Because that has an equal effect across all counties no matter what state they are located in, that would pass muster.

But I also think that “cracking down” on owners of second homes in Hawaii is not going to move the needle on the change they are seeking, does not address the problem, and is directing their ire at exactly the wrong population.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 4, 2022)

csodjd said:


> Different facts. That is at the County level. The Constitution doesn’t bar a County doing this from those living in other Counties. It is only at the state level that you run afoul of the 14th amendment. Because that has an equal effect across all counties no matter what state they are located in, that would pass muster.
> 
> But I also think that “cracking down” on owners of second homes in Hawaii is not going to move the needle on the change they are seeking, does not address the problem, and is directing their ire at exactly the wrong population.


Each Hawaii county could pass such a tax ordinance which would then apply to second home owners from other Hawaii counties, as well as those from out of state, or even other countries.

But my post above was referencing your comment in post #120 above that said:

_*“That would be unworkable. What’s a ‘second home?’ How do you police that?”*_

My interpretation was that statement wasn’t addressing the 14th Amendment Constitutional question, but was instead questioning how a second home could be defined and policed in a jurisdiction’s property tax code. My example of HHI was simply how one jurisdiction is doing that.


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## vacationtime1 (Dec 5, 2022)

What Hawaii *could *do and what Hawaii *should* do are not necessarily the same.

imho, the first step Hawaii should take is to reduce or eliminate short term vacation rentals (AirBnB, VRBO, etc.).  Not only would that reduce the number of tourist beds and therefore the number of tourists, but it would also increase the housing supply because these properties would be available for residential use rather than transient use. In addition, it would reduce the demand for housing because investors would no longer have the same economic incentive to buy them for use as short term rentals.  More supply + less demand = lower housing prices.  Econ 101. 

The problem is that so many short term rental properties have already been approved and are operational.  Governmental officials have lacked foresight -- and will.


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## csodjd (Dec 5, 2022)

vacationtime1 said:


> What Hawaii *could *do and what Hawaii *should* do are not necessarily the same.
> 
> imho, the first step Hawaii should take is to reduce or eliminate short term vacation rentals (AirBnB, VRBO, etc.).  Not only would that reduce the number of tourist beds and therefore the number of tourists, but it would also increase the housing supply because these properties would be available for residential use rather than transient use. In addition, it would reduce the demand for housing because investors would no longer have the same economic incentive to buy them for use as short term rentals.  More supply + less demand = lower housing prices.  Econ 101.
> 
> The problem is that so many short term rental properties have already been approved and are operational.  Governmental officials have lacked foresight -- and will.


Those rentals also draw in a price-sensitive consumer, less likely to spend “freely” in the community and generating less tax revenue. I’m not sure Hawaii wants to chase away people that are spending $900/night for a hotel room. The short-term home rentals are sometimes families, but often are 2-4 friends sharing cost and finding a place to stay for $100/nt/person. 

On the flip side, if you paid for and own a home, pay your taxes, etc., should the government tell you who you can rent it to? Are we leaning too hard on government and giving them too much power over our right to earn money?


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## csodjd (Dec 5, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Each Hawaii county could pass such a tax ordinance which would then apply to second home owners from other Hawaii counties, as well as those from out of state, or even other countries.
> 
> But my post above was referencing your comment in post #120 above that said:
> 
> ...


I suspect, Maui County, for instance, could impose a higher tax on property owned by individuals whose primary residence is outside Maui County. I’m not sure that would get them where they want to go. Driving away wealthy high-spending low-density visitors seems rather counter-productive.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 5, 2022)

csodjd said:


> Different facts. That is at the County level.
> 
> [and from a later post]
> 
> I suspect, Maui County, for instance, could impose a higher tax on property owned by individuals whose primary residence is outside Maui County. I’m not sure that would get them where they want to go. Driving away wealthy high-spending low-density visitors seems rather counter-productive.



County government across the state of Hawaii have more power than most US counties. Hawaii county or Maui county would be jacking up the property taxes, not Honolulu.

This is why much of the "let's do something about tourist numbers" is coming from Maui and not the state as a whole.

People seem to think that if part-time resident millionaires are targeted, the housing pool will magically grow, and everyone will get an affordable house. I disagree, strongly, with their grasp of basic economics. But that sentiment is strong. I think much of it is sour grapes -- a desire to punish people who don't have to think about how the numbers work.

Since these vacation palaces are appreciating at rocket-ship speed, even if they're shut eight months of the year, they're still great investments. However, many wealthy part-timers AirBnB their palace the rest of the year -- so they're not all low-density. My area has a bunch of these five-figure a week palaces.


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## csodjd (Dec 5, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> County government across the state of Hawaii have more power than most US counties. Hawaii county or Maui county would be jacking up the property taxes, not Honolulu.
> 
> This is why much of the "let's do something about tourist numbers" is coming from Maui and not the state as a whole.
> 
> ...


I hear a lot of the same discussion coming from Honolulu. One of the biggest complaints I hear is tourists spilling over into residential areas not intended to be for tourists, having an adverse affect on quality of life by, among other things, reducing the sense of ”community” in the area.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 5, 2022)

csodjd said:


> I hear a lot of the same discussion coming from Honolulu. One of the biggest complaints I hear is tourists spilling over into residential areas not intended to be for tourists, having an adverse affect on quality of life by, among other things, reducing the sense of ”community” in the area.



Frankly, that's laughable. These palaces are behind gates, not visible from the road. And you'd have to be on a boat in the bay with binoculars to even know they're there. These houses are massive, secluded and hard to find. There is no "community" there. Never was. These are enclaves for people who don't want to rub elbows with riff-raff.

In other areas, where people are buying more modest SFRs and turning them into party houses, that's a valid concern. But the five-figure palaces around here will never be worker housing -- even if they can find a way to force all the part-time owners to sell.

And I'll keep mentioning it, the family renting out a Ohana or a spare room in order to pay the bills is going to be the first to feel the effects of any anti-AirBnB legislation. The millionaires don't care and can lawyer up. Not so the family of four which relies on renting that Ohana out a couple long weekends/weeks each month. These Ohanas and spare rooms aren't suitable for long-term tenants, either. So all enforcement is going to do is hurt the people who need the extra income the most.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 5, 2022)

csodjd said:


> I suspect, Maui County, for instance, could impose a higher tax on property owned by individuals whose primary residence is outside Maui County. I’m not sure that would get them where they want to go. Driving away wealthy high-spending low-density visitors seems rather counter-productive.


Based on what I’ve seen on HHI, the higher tax rate on second homes hasn’t driven people away. Based on the last sales prior to things slowing this fall, the value of our condo may have doubled in three years. We’ll see if that holds. I doubt it will all hold. But most second home owners rent their units anyway, so they just recoup the taxes in their rental rate. We don’t rent ours, so we bear the brunt. 

So I doubt a higher rate on Maui like HHI would drive many people away. It would fatten local coffers though.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 5, 2022)

csodjd said:


> That would be unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment. States cannot treat residents of other states differently or otherwise burden the right to travel freely among the states.


I take back the "out of state". Non-Resident Owners


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 5, 2022)

lynne said:


> You cannot keep using Long Island as a benchmark for teacher salaries.  If you want to be fair, compare each state with cost of living and you will see an entirely different picture compared to other professions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



COST OF LIVING!  Most of the states that are in the low teacher salary level have much lower cost of living for teachers than Hawaii or Long Island.  While I grant you that Long Island has high teacher salaries, its cost of living is not even as high as Hawaii. 

It is the same with minimum wage.  I did a personal study when they were talking about raising the Federal Miniumum Wage.  If they were going to raise the Federal Minimum wage to $15/hour.  States like Alabama and Mississippi would be making their minimum wage earning people quite comfortable like middle class.   If the Federal Minimum Wage was raised to $15/hour the minimum wage in Hawaii would need to be raised to $22/hour to provide an equivilent living standard taking the cost of living into consideration.   From another perspective, raising the minimum wage in much of New York State and Hawaii to $15/hour would be the same as raising it to only $9/hour in those low cost of living states.

Therefore, due to the high cost of living to reward teachers adaquately their salaries should be about 50% more than the teachers in those low cost of living states in the teacher comparison survey.


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## csodjd (Dec 5, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> COST OF LIVING!  Most of the states that are in the low teacher salary level have much lower cost of living for teachers than Hawaii or Long Island.  While I grant you that Long Island has high teacher salaries, its cost of living is not even as high as Hawaii.
> 
> It is the same with minimum wage.  I did a personal study when they were talking about raising the Federal Miniumum Wage.  If they were going to raise the Federal Minimum wage to $15/hour.  States like Alabama and Mississippi would be making their minimum wage earning people quite comfortable like middle class.   If the Federal Minimum Wage was raised to $15/hour the minimum wage in Hawaii would need to be raised to $22/hour to provide an equivilent living standard taking the cost of living into consideration.   From another perspective, raising the minimum wage in much of New York State and Hawaii to $15/hour would be the same as raising it to only $9/hour in those low cost of living states.
> 
> Therefore, due to the high cost of living to reward teachers adaquately their salaries should be about 50% more than the teachers in those low cost of living states in the teacher comparison survey.


I view teacher salaries a bit differently. I look at it in terms of the (relative) importance of what they do, the training, the challenges of the job. These are important considerations in my view when setting pay scales. The problem I have perceived with respect to teacher salaries is that it failed to fairly compensate them, not by a standard of living scale, but by a relative scale of how important their job is. Whatever the minimum wage may be, the minimum wage should apply to entry level, relatively low skill, low importance jobs. Teachers are not that. They should be paid well because what they do is not easy, is not something anyone can do, and is very important.


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## vacationtime1 (Dec 5, 2022)

My experience is that discussions about teachers' salaries are often proxies for discussions about the importance of universal public education.

Teachers' formal training is comparable to that of hedge fund managers, not dishwashers.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 5, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I did a personal study when they were talking about raising the Federal Miniumum Wage.  If they were going to raise the Federal Minimum wage to $15/hour.  States like Alabama and Mississippi would be making their minimum wage earning people quite comfortable like middle class.



Do you consider that a problem? 

The worst thing about living in the US is having to live with a population which is barely hanging on; one paycheck away from financial disaster. This is why it feels like someone turned the "crazy" knob to 11.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 6, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Do you consider that a problem?
> 
> The worst thing about living in the US is having to live with a population which is barely hanging on; one paycheck away from financial disaster. This is why it feels like someone turned the "crazy" knob to 11.


No that is not my point at all.  My point was that you can't have a fair Federal Minimum Wage since the cost of living in all states is different.  The members of Congress know that they could never get agreement of the majority of members to pass the bill.  That is why each state needs to have a differnent minimum wage and the one in Hawaii probably should be the highest in the US.  

With that said lets turn to teachers pay.  Some here have said that Hawaii is in the top 1/3 of the highest paid teachers.  However, with the high cost of living in Hawaii, like with the minimum wage, Hawaii probably should be the highest in teachers pay to reward them sufficiently.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 6, 2022)

csodjd said:


> I view teacher salaries a bit differently. I look at it in terms of the (relative) importance of what they do, the training, the challenges of the job. These are important considerations in my view when setting pay scales. The problem I have perceived with respect to teacher salaries is that it failed to fairly compensate them, not by a standard of living scale, but by a relative scale of how important their job is. Whatever the minimum wage may be, the minimum wage should apply to entry level, relatively low skill, low importance jobs. Teachers are not that. They should be paid well because what they do is not easy, is not something anyone can do, and is very important.



I not only do agree with you I have said what you are saying in a different manner in this thread.  My point with using the standard of living scale is to respond to Sponger76 and Lynne who seem to think that teachers pay is sufficient in Hawaii and that I shouldn't use Long Island where teachers are fairly compensated for their level of education and the importance of the work that they do in developing our children.  They are our future.


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## sponger76 (Dec 6, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I not only do agree with you I have said what you are saying in a different manner in this thread.  My point with using the standard of living scale is to respond to Sponger76 and Lynne who seem to think that teachers pay is sufficient in Hawaii and that I shouldn't use Long Island where teachers are fairly compensated for their level of education and the importance of the work that they do in developing our children.  They are our future.


I never said anything about Long Island, and don't care what the teachers there are paid. I just don't like your grand idea of taking money from other Hawaii residents to put teachers up above them financially.


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## geist1223 (Dec 6, 2022)

Patti and I have discussed that as the minimum wage is raised to $15 per hour that $15 per hour will become the new proverty level. To fund this are you willing to pay $10 or more for a Big Mac?


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## bnoble (Dec 6, 2022)

It doesn't matter, because you won't have to--at least, not because of the hourly wage. This study is several years old, but the point stands; wage costs are a small fraction of the price of that burger.

It probably doesn't account for other increases in the labor chain, so maybe it ends up being more, but some of those sources (farms) are not covered by hourly minimums, while others (processing) are.





__





						Study: Raising wages to $15 an hour for limited-service restaurant employees would raise prices 4.3 percent - Purdue University
					

Raising wages to $15 an hour for limited-service restaurant employees would lead to an estimated 4.3 percent increase in prices at those restaurants, according to a recent study.




					www.purdue.edu


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## Henry M. (Dec 6, 2022)

I guess part of the question is whether jobs that pay minimum wage should be considered jobs from which to live from, or just entry level stepping stones to jobs that can actually sustain a person or a family? Should there be an incentive to try to move up because the lower rungs of the ladder are not comfortable places to be at, or should everybody make at least a "living wage", no matter what the job entails?

I agree with Scoop that palatial houses in gated communities won't become available for local housing, but most of the short term rentals I see are not in that category. There are lots of what would be considered middle income homes where I live that are in short term rental programs in Hawaii because they can bring in per week what the monthly rent would be if they were rented long term. STRs contribute significantly to the housing shortage in popular tourist destinations. Another issue in many places is gentrification, even if the homes are owner occupied. Wealthier people with the means move into desirable areas, driving up prices and making the area less affordable. It is a basic supply and demand situation, not exclusive to Hawaii. Even. people that outright own some modest homes can't afford to remain in them as property taxes and expected services rise along with property values. Affordable housing is a complex issue and not easily solved with just a couple of common-sense policies.


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## csodjd (Dec 6, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> I never said anything about Long Island, and don't care what the teachers there are paid. I just don't like your grand idea of taking money from other Hawaii residents to put teachers up above them financially.


Teachers are not paid by private employers that can charge customers for selling them things. They are paid out of tax dollars. Just like politicians and police officers and people that repair streets. I’m not sure where teachers lie in pay relative to police and fire, but I’d expect them to be at least on par with them.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 6, 2022)

geist1223 said:


> Patti and I have discussed that as the minimum wage is raised to $15 per hour that $15 per hour will become the new proverty level. To fund this are you willing to pay $10 or more for a Big Mac?



McDonald's in Denmark starts part-time workers off at $25/hr, with five weeks paid vacation, and since it's Denmark, full medical and tuition. A Big Mac costs $0.50 more there than here. 

Companies CAN pay more. They just choose not to.


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## csodjd (Dec 6, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> McDonald's in Denmark starts part-time workers off at $25/hr, with five weeks paid vacation, and since it's Denmark, full medical and tuition. A Big Mac costs $0.50 more there than here.
> 
> Companies CAN pay more. They just choose not to.


To be fair, in the context of private businesses, they CAN pay more, but they MAKE less as a result. Isn’t the heart of free capitalism that you pay what you need to pay to get the workers/quality of workers you want? Does the owner of a private business owe a duty to ensure that those applying for a job earn enough to meet some standard of living? 

Put another way, if two equal people apply for a job, is there something wrong with hiring the one willing to work for less money, even if the amount they are willing to work for isn’t enough for them to pay all their bills?


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## ScoopKona (Dec 6, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> but most of the short term rentals I see are not in that category.



Depends on where you are searching. The average house sale is a little less than $1 million on Maui. I've looked at the AirBnBs there, and most of them are clearly above-average houses. Even if the owners are forced to sell because of anti-AirBnB laws, they're not going to sell to locals who work in the tourism industry -- it isn't economically viable. 

It's the same on Big Island -- most of the AirBnBs aren't in the heavy residential zones on the Kailua-Kona side of Hualalai. (Although there are some less expensive examples there. Most of them are on the Makai side of Kealakekua and Captain Cook, where real estate prices are an order of magnitude higher.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 6, 2022)

csodjd said:


> Put another way, if two equal people apply for a job, is there something wrong with hiring the one willing to work for less money, even if the amount they are willing to work for isn’t enough for them to pay all their bills?



Depends. Have you spent any time in Denmark? How would you compare the quality of life for the average person there vs. here?

Do you place any value on that?

Thinking that minimum wage only really applies to teenagers is what got us into the situation we're in now. "More of the same" isn't going to get us out of it.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 6, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> I never said anything about Long Island, and don't care what the teachers there are paid. I just don't like your grand idea of taking money from other Hawaii residents to put teachers up above them financially.


Lynne criticized me for Long Island, you didn't.  However,  you don't want teachers, who have lots or education and do the very important work of teaching the children of Hawaii, to be better off financially than housekeepers, gardeners, and retail store workers.  Can't relate...  How about Doctors and Nurses who care for the health?  Should they not be better off financially?


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## ScoopKona (Dec 6, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Should they not be better off financially?



Seems to me you have a definite order in your head about what someone's use to society is, and how much they should be paid for their time. Also, who gets to have a house, decent life, enough food to eat, reliable transportation and who doesn't.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 6, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Seems to me you have a definite order in your head about what someone's use to society is, and how much they should be paid for their time. Also, who gets to have a house, decent life, enough food to eat, reliable transportation and who doesn't.



We live in a society that those who get certain jobs get better pay.  Over 50 years ago in my College School Days I also believed in socialism and felt that there should be equality of income for any type of work.  I read a book called Utopia and read a section of the First Book of Paul that addresses that issue.  I am older now and have a different view of life. 

My husband and I worked and saved all our lives and have Social Security and Retirement income to afford to live without having to work in our 70's.  However, we can't afford a house in Hawaii.  We have a leasehold condo unit in an older building in Honolulu.  We don't have a car.  We have a senior bus pass for transportation.  We feel we have enough food to eat and a decent life but what the definition of what that is is different for each person.  Some who live in our building must have a car to feel they have a decent life.  Others that live in our building must have a Fee Simple unit to feel secure.  

People make decisions in their lives to get a good education or not; to get a good job with benefits or not; to stay in a good job and work hard or not; to save or spend their money or not; what they get in life has alot to do with the decisions they made and make.   

THAT IS LIFE!


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## ScoopKona (Dec 6, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> THAT IS LIFE!



That is life, here. 

Every other developed country has sorted this out. We're the outlier. 

I also find it strange that you are trying to explain socialism to someone who has "won" at capitalism. This is really simple -- Hawaii isn't Hawaii without Hawaiians. Not every one of them wants to be a computer engineer or a brain surgeon. And not everyone is cut out for those careers in the first place.

Who gets to decide who lives here and who has to leave? You? 

There is already a massive diaspora of Hawaiians to the mainland because they cannot make the numbers work. Telling them, "Well, you should have paid more attention in school and obtained a better job" isn't going to bring anyone back. It is also a big source of local vs. newcomer vs. tourist friction. I'd be happier if that friction was gone.

It would be considerably easier to insist people are paid enough to live here. Work a full time job? Then that worker should be able to live here full-time as well. We need grocery clerks, servers, cooks and tour guides just as much as we need chemical engineers and hedge fund managers.


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## csodjd (Dec 6, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> It would be considerably easier to insist people are paid enough to live here. Work a full time job? Then that worker should be able to live here full-time as well. We need grocery clerks, servers, cooks and tour guides just as much as we need chemical engineers and hedge fund managers.


That leaves so many unanswered questions. Live at what standard of living? In what community? Who absorbs that cost? The business owner? If he/she must raise prices to cover it, then who is really paying? What if that prices the business out and it goes under, leaving 10 more people unemployed?

My daughter, for several years, was earning about $100k/year in SF. She could not afford her own apartment in the city and shared one with two other girls. That was the sacrifice she was willing to pay to live in the city near her job. Eventually her salary grew to the point where she could afford her own 1-br 1-bath apartment, no parking, 70 year old building (no central heat, no a/c), 3rd floor, no elevator. She has a civil engineering degree from UCB and an MBA from UCLA. Should she have been "entitled" to her own place with central heat and an elevator from day one?


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## ScoopKona (Dec 6, 2022)

csodjd said:


> In what? Who?  who? What if?



An awful lot of questions considering every other wealthy nation has sorted this out. I've lived in several of them. Life doesn't suck for the wealthy -- OR the average citizen. They have more-expensive areas, too. And yet, they can make it work and we cannot.

Are you suggesting we lack the ability/intelligence to do what the rest of the wealthy nations are already doing?
Again, I think this is simple: Someone who was born in Hawaii and wants to live in Hawaii should get to live in Hawaii -- so long as this person is willing to perform some useful service while living here. 

And what of the people who can't do anything useful? Do we ship them all off to some lower-cost-of-living area because it might raise property taxes funding Adult Mentally Retarded programs and similar?

People keep making this out to be rocket science when it isn't -- pay people a living wage. $15/hour in Hawaii is stupid. Nobody can live on that. Frankly, it's worse than stupid. It's insulting. It's insulting that the people who run this state think that anyone can take $15/hr and 40 hours a week and make that work. It's like they don't live here and don't have to pay for anything. "Have my manservant pay for this round of golf. I'll be in the clubhouse."


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## bnoble (Dec 6, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> whether jobs that pay minimum wage should be considered jobs from which to live from, or just entry level stepping stones to jobs that can actually sustain a person or a family? Should there be an incentive to try to move up because the lower rungs of the ladder are not comfortable places to be at, or should everybody make at least a "living wage", no matter what the job entails?


This is a false choice. It is entirely possible for a "minimum wage" job to be one in which basic necessities of life---adequate food, shelter, and clothing---are within reach, while simultaneously possible for there to be an incentive to move up so something that pays better.  That incentive doesn't have to be "can finally afford rent," and other incentives exist. If they didn't none of us would bother looking for more once we could meet the basics.


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## lynne (Dec 6, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Lynne criticized me for Long Island, you didn't.  However,  you don't want teachers, who have lots or education and do the very important work of teaching the children of Hawaii, to be better off financially than housekeepers, gardeners, and retail store workers.  Can't relate...  How about Doctors and Nurses who care for the health?  Should they not be better off financially?


I did not criticize you, I was just pointing out that Long Island is not a national standard, it is an outlier for teacher salaries and benefits.

My previous post did not disparage teacher salaries, but the fact that you are holding Long Island as your model.   I grew up on Long Island (50+ years) and went to grammer, middle and high as well as undergraduate school there.  I did receive a great education and realize that teachers on Long Island get paid very well for the 10 months with summer and vacation time off as well as great benefits.  Long Island is not a great representation of the country for teacher salaries.

All I am trying to point out is that unless you look at every state, county and township, you should not hold up a particular region as the model.  I can also tell you that with the good salaries teachers are paid on Long Island, there are some disctricts that perform very poorly.   I do not begrudge teacher salaries for the work they perform but they do get benefits that other professions do not receive.  How many professions do you know that have holidays. winter breaks and summer off and still get medical and pension benefits.


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## csodjd (Dec 6, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Are you suggesting we lack the ability/intelligence to do what the rest of the wealthy nations are already doing?


Well? Just look around....


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## sponger76 (Dec 6, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Lynne criticized me for Long Island, you didn't.  However,  you don't want teachers, who have lots or education and do the very important work of teaching the children of Hawaii, to be better off financially than housekeepers, gardeners, and retail store workers.  Can't relate...  How about Doctors and Nurses who care for the health?  Should they not be better off financially?


They are already better off than those people you're looking down your nose at. According to salaryexpert.com the average wage in the state of Hawaii is $65,015/yr or $31.26/hr. You know those jobs are paying lower than that average. That same site says that the average public school teacher wage in Hawaii is $66,712/yr or $32.07/hr, so slightly above the average wage and definitely already more than the unwashed masses you look down on. But you want to take more from those people so you can be even higher above them.

By the way, your initial premise was that you should pay teachers more so they can create better outcomes for their students. Are teachers really going to do a better job just because they get paid more? I say no. Number one, when Hawaii's public school teachers have won raises in the past, there was absolutely zero discernible effect on outcomes for their students. In addition, much of my life private school teachers in Hawaii on average actually earned LESS than public school teachers, but their students had better outcomes, to the point that many public school teachers were sending their own kids to private school. To me, that says that the socioeconomic circumstances of the students, rather than the pay level of their teachers, was far more important to the outcome. Salary Expert says that private school teachers in Hawaii are now on average making $67,626/yr or $32.51/hr, so only slightly more now than public school teachers, and yet their student outcomes are still much higher.

As for the jobs you turn your nose up at, do you ever consider why those jobs exist? It's because they're needed. Somebody has to work in the stores, perform janitorial duties, etc. If everybody is going and getting college degrees and only working white collar jobs, who does all those other functions? Also, if everybody is highly paid, then nobody is highly paid. I do believe that teachers should be able to live without struggling. I just don't think they need to be able to afford BMWs or the like. And unlike you, I also believe that the regular people of Hawaii also deserve to live without struggling, and that we shouldn't add to their financial struggles just to put teachers even further ahead of them than they already are.

By the way, I'm not advocating for a socialist/communist utopia. I do believe that choices have consequences, such as getting a college education or not. I just don't believe in taking from the poor to give to those who are already better off, without giving them a choice. Aside from moving, these people can't get away from higher property taxes meant to pay public servants, including teachers, more even if they rent instead of own; as I said earlier, landlords will just pass the cost along. On the other hand, if employees of a business want to get paid more, whether through negotiating with management or raising the minimum wage, the business owner can raise prices to cover the additional expense. Those costs are paid by customers, who do have a choice of either paying the higher prices, going elsewhere, or just not purchasing. And if the pay goes too high to where nobody will pay the associated prices, the business goes under.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 6, 2022)

lynne said:


> I did not criticize you, I was just pointing out that Long Island is not a national standard, it is an outlier for teacher salaries and benefits.
> 
> My previous post did not disparage teacher salaries, but the fact that you are holding Long Island as your model.   I grew up on Long Island (50+ years) and went to grammer, middle and high as well as undergraduate school there.  I did receive a great education and realize that teachers on Long Island get paid very well for the 10 months with summer and vacation time off as well as great benefits.  Long Island is not a great representation of the country for teacher salaries.
> 
> All I am trying to point out is that unless you look at every state, county and township, you should not hold up a particular region as the model.  I can also tell you that with the good salaries teachers are paid on Long Island, there are some disctricts that perform very poorly.   I do not begrudge teacher salaries for the work they perform but they do get benefits that other professions do not receive.  How many professions do you know that have holidays. winter breaks and summer off and still get medical and pension benefits.


I acknowledged that Long Isalnd Teachers are very well paid and I don't advocate that Hawaii try emulate them with that high a salary.  However, what I take exception to is your pointed out that Hawaii is in the top 1/3 of the salaries without regard to looking at the cost of living in Hawaii versus the other states.  I have no other thought with respect to your assertion.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 6, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> That is life, here.
> 
> Every other developed country has sorted this out. We're the outlier.
> 
> ...


My comments here have been directed here about ALL people in Hawaii in general not specifically the Native Hawaiians.  If we are going to discuss issues specifically with respect to Native Hawaiians I do not choose to do that as part of this discussion.  My thinking may be   more radical and in favor of much more retribution and much faster action than you think.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 6, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> My comments here have been directed here about ALL people in Hawaii in general not specifically the Native Hawaiians.  If we are going to discuss issues specifically with respect to Native Hawaiians I do not choose to do that as part of this discussion.  My thinking may be   more radical and in favor of much more retribution and much faster action than you think.



I tend to doubt it. 

Since native Hawaiians are the most apt to be hurting economically, you should have no problems raising minimum wage to the point where any Hawaiian can afford average rent, average groceries, average taxes and insurance -- an average cost of living.

And if that means $30/hr minimum wage, that's hunky dory? 

I can get behind that, despite what it might mean for inflation (less than most would think.) How about you?

This is why I'm gung ho about a "tourism pays a big subsidy" plan -- much like an Alaska Permanent fund. The tourists have shown an endless capacity to spend without care on things like tater tots and fish imported from another continent. 

I'm done caring what they think about economics -- because they clearly don't care, either.


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## slip (Dec 6, 2022)

I just want to remind people that the article never mentions the rates being a strategy for reducing tourism. It is just supplying the numbers.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 7, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> I tend to doubt it.
> 
> Since native Hawaiians are the most apt to be hurting economically, you should have no problems raising minimum wage to the point where any Hawaiian can afford average rent, average groceries, average taxes and insurance -- an average cost of living.
> 
> ...


My thinking is different than yours.  While your suggested $30/hr mininum might be helpful if it would be for all those in Hawaii not just Native Hawaiians so I can't agree.   The history of Hawaii is such the the United States owes Native Hawaiians big time.  This is NOT my thinking about all people living in Hawaii.  This is about Reparations for Native Hawaiians.

Therefore, thru a combination of Federal Funding and State of Hawaii Funding all Native Hawaiians below a certain income level(Your $30/hr which is about $60K a year might be the right number) should be given a Hawaiian Homelands Grant and would not need to pay any property taxes on that land.  In addition, Native Hawaiians who are below that income level should also be given stipends that bring their income up to that agreed income level.  Also, since Native Hawaiians have greater health problems than other groups they should be given either free health insurance or financial supplements to enable them to buy the best health insurance plans available in Hawaii at very low rates.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 7, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> They are already better off than those people you're looking down your nose at. According to salaryexpert.com the average wage in the state of Hawaii is $65,015/yr or $31.26/hr. You know those jobs are paying lower than that average. That same site says that the average public school teacher wage in Hawaii is $66,712/yr or $32.07/hr, so slightly above the average wage and definitely already more than the unwashed masses you look down on. But you want to take more from those people so you can be even higher above them.
> 
> By the way, your initial premise was that you should pay teachers more so they can create better outcomes for their students. Are teachers really going to do a better job just because they get paid more? I say no. Number one, when Hawaii's public school teachers have won raises in the past, there was absolutely zero discernible effect on outcomes for their students. In addition, much of my life private school teachers in Hawaii on average actually earned LESS than public school teachers, but their students had better outcomes, to the point that many public school teachers were sending their own kids to private school. To me, that says that the socioeconomic circumstances of the students, rather than the pay level of their teachers, was far more important to the outcome. Salary Expert says that private school teachers in Hawaii are now on average making $67,626/yr or $32.51/hr, so only slightly more now than public school teachers, and yet their student outcomes are still much higher.
> 
> ...


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 7, 2022)

From your response I can see that you don't have the same respect for those that teach our children that I do and you feel that getting the average wage of all those that work in Hawaii is sufficient.  I asked what you thought about Doctors and Nurses.  Should they also be paid the average wage ofall those that work in Hawaii? 

The purpose of paying more for teachers is not to get the existing teachers to teach better, it is to attract and retain the best people in that profession since it is a well paying profession.  The retention is not just in the field of teaching it is the retention in the State of Hawaii.

I don't turn up my nose at any job.  I have respect for all those that work for a living.  In fact one of the jobs that do not take education nor a great deal of training and experience that I hold in very high esteem is Home Health Aid.  That is another profession that needs to be paid much better.  Why would anyone want to work as a home health aide and have to do some of the things that an aide is called on to do when they can dress up in nice clothes and work as a department store clerk and make the same or even better money?

Since we do not live in a socialist society where according to the letter in the Bible from Paul to the Corithians:
"Now at this time your abundance _may supply _their want, that their abundance also may be _a supply_ for your want: that there may be equality: people do what they can and receive what they need with equality as the result."  Some professions warrant and do get paid better.  Teachers do get paid better in locations other than Hawaii particularly when you take the high cost of living into consideration.


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## sponger76 (Dec 7, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> From your response I can see that you don't have the same respect for those that teach our children that I do and you feel that getting the average wage of all those that work in Hawaii is sufficient.  I asked what you thought about Doctors and Nurses.  Should they also be paid the average wage ofall those that work in Hawaii?
> 
> The purpose of paying more for teachers is not to get the existing teachers to teach better, it is to attract and retain the best people in that profession since it is a well paying profession.  The retention is not just in the field of teaching it is the retention in the State of Hawaii.
> 
> ...


Doctors and nurses (especially higher levels of nursing) require more training at more cost, and far more specialized knowledge than a lot of teachers do. In addition, they literally have life and death in their hands. So yes, they deserve higher pay than teachers and lot of other professions, though I do think that some make obscene amounts, and usually in vanity professions such as plastic surgery rather than those that actually are working daily to save lives. Teachers serve an important function in society, but so do many other jobs, and aside from a very few, most teachers do not have life-changing impacts on their students that totally turn their lives around. A lot of people can follow a lesson plan and grade homework/tests from an answer sheet. So aside from finding a way to identify and reward those few special teachers that really do impact and change students' lives, no, I don't think that the average teacher needs or deserves more than the average wage. I'd rather focus on ways to make it more affordable for everyone who does live and work in Hawaii. That in turn would also improve the lives of teachers. Besides, I thought most teachers (initially, before they get jaded like the vast majority I've encountered) enter the profession because of the ideal of helping others. If they're looking to join the profession to help themselves get rich at everyone else's expense, they're going into the wrong profession.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 7, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> My thinking is different than yours.  While your suggested $30/hr mininum might be helpful if it would be for all those in Hawaii not just Native Hawaiians so I can't agree.   The history of Hawaii is such the the United States owes Native Hawaiians big time.  This is NOT my thinking about all people living in Hawaii.  This is about Reparations for Native Hawaiians.



So, is it fair to say that for you, it's all about "who deserves to have a nice life and who deserves to suffer?"


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 7, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> Doctors and nurses (especially higher levels of nursing) require more training at more cost, and far more specialized knowledge than a lot of teachers do. In addition, they literally have life and death in their hands. So yes, they deserve higher pay than teachers and lot of other professions, though I do think that some make obscene amounts, and usually in vanity professions such as plastic surgery rather than those that actually are working daily to save lives. Teachers serve an important function in society, but so do many other jobs, and aside from a very few, most teachers do not have life-changing impacts on their students that totally turn their lives around. A lot of people can follow a lesson plan and grade homework/tests from an answer sheet. So aside from finding a way to identify and reward those few special teachers that really do impact and change students' lives, no, I don't think that the average teacher needs or deserves more than the average wage. I'd rather focus on ways to make it more affordable for everyone who does live and work in Hawaii. That in turn would also improve the lives of teachers. Besides, I thought most teachers (initially, before they get jaded like the vast majority I've encountered) enter the profession because of the ideal of helping others. If they're looking to join the profession to help themselves get rich at everyone else's expense, they're going into the wrong profession.



That is great that you recognize that Doctors and Nurses should be paid more than the average worker in Hawaii do to their important role in the caring for the health of the population.  Now I want to focus on your statement:

 "Teachers serve an important function in society, but so do many other jobs,"

That was my point in bringing up the example of Home Health Aide or Homecare Aide.  These workers serve an extremely important function in society as we get older and can't do for ourselves.  They are a group that is underpaid and should be paid more do to their important role in caring for the elderly population.  There is going to be a greater need for these workers as the average population ages and it is imperative that the pay is adaquate to attract and retain good workers in this field.  

I think we can agree that certain jobs should pay more do to the important role they play in our society.  It is apparent that we can't agree on the teaching profession as one of those that play important role and should be paid more in Hawaii.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 7, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> So, is it fair to say that for you, it's all about "who deserves to have a nice life and who deserves to suffer.



It is apparent that you want to argue on this thread no matter what anybody says even if they agree with you.  I was responding to your statement about Native Hawaiians:

"Since native Hawaiians are the most apt to be hurting economically, you should have no problems raising minimum wage to the point where any Hawaiian can afford average rent, average groceries, average taxes and insurance -- an average cost of living."

and your previous statement:

 "Hawaii isn't Hawaii without Hawaiians"

*I was agreeing with you that Native Hawaiians should not be priced out of living in Hawaii. *

As far as others, all people need to make decisions and then deal with the consequences of those decisions.  Should one get a good education and/or training?  Is there a need for people educated in that field and how does it pay in Hawaii?  Should one live in Hawaii or with one's training and skill perhaps another location is better to have a comfortable life?  Where in Hawaii should one live?  Does one have a car or rely on public transportation. Does one need to work a full time job or a number of jobs to live comfortably.    

It is not as you said "For Me it's all about"  We do not live in a society where one can choose to work in any job, for any amount of time, in any location, and then live in any location and expect to live comfortably.  Decisions have consequences.  I have made mine in the past and I am continuing to make decisions with respect to these factors to enable me and may familty to live in Hawaii comfortably.  Others need to make theirs.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 7, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> It is apparent that you want to argue on this thread no matter what anybody says even if they agree with you.



I'm just looking for even a little consistency. You seem to be bankrupt on that.

You seem to be far more concerned with whether someone is deserving of decent wages than actually fixing any problems. And none of the fixes had better affect your pocketbook.

If you were concerned with the plight of native Hawaiians, you wouldn't be in favor of raising their property taxes. You wouldn't be in favor of taking money from them and giving it to teachers. 

And I can't see how anyone looks at a $15/hour minimum wage in this state and thinks, "Great! This is awesome! Problem solved! Break out the good champagne!"

Nobody can live on $15/hour. That barely covers rent with nothing else. My neighbors deserve better than this.


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## sponger76 (Dec 7, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> That is great that you recognize that Doctors and Nurses should be paid more than the average worker in Hawaii do to their important role in the caring for the health of the population.  Now I want to focus on your statement:
> 
> "Teachers serve an important function in society, but so do many other jobs,"
> 
> ...


The thing with doctors, nurses and even home health/homecare aides is that their salaries are not typically paid for by taxes. Most of them work for private companies that get paid by their clients (or, more accurately/often, their clients' insurance). The free market determines what they get paid. There is no free market for determining public school teacher wages, they just make an agreement with the government and it gets forced down the taxpayer's throat.


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## Henry M. (Dec 7, 2022)

Many topics being discussed.

Where I live, very few steady jobs pay the legal minimum wage. Any business that wants to get workers has to pay significantly above minimum wage, even McDonalds and Walmart. Migrant workers make more than $15/hr. Most people I know in Hawaii also make more than $15/hr. I don't see how you would be able to sustain yourself, much less a family, staying at a job that can get away with paying the minimum wage. There is usually a supply and demand related reason why a given job pays what it does. You need to move beyond the bottom job levels to be able to live better. I give people more credit than thinking they can't improve from where they currently are.  

I've lived in many parts of the world, and none offer the opportunity to get ahead that exists in the US. European socialism is not a panacea and life is not much better there than here, especially for those that try to work hard to get ahead. It is much more difficult to climb the economic ladder there. Trying to have equality of outcomes pretty much kills equality of opportunity to go above and beyond your current status.

According to HHS.gov, there are about 1.4 million native Hawaiians, of which only about 355,000 (~25%) live in Hawaii. Given these demographics, how long do you think it will take for the population to be diluted as it mixes with non-native people? What rule can you put in place that won't be to the long term detriment of the native people, as they are unable to give their property to their descendants that stopped being 1/8 (or whatever proportion is deemed proper) Hawaiian? How is the proposed racism (in this case against non-Hawaiians) justified?


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## ScoopKona (Dec 7, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> Many topics being discussed.
> 
> Where I live, very few steady jobs pay the legal minimum wage. Any business that wants to get workers has to pay significantly above minimum wage, even McDonalds and Walmart. Migrant workers make more than $15/hr. Most people I know in Hawaii also make more than $15/hr. I don't see how you would be able to sustain yourself, much less a family, staying at a job that can get away with paying the minimum wage.



Just addressing the point above: I pay attention to the help wanted signs on every other business window as I mosey around town. There are bunches of places that are paying $15 or close to it -- $16, $18 is common.

Let's say we have a straw man EMT making the state average of $37K per year. That's WAY less than $18 an hour because he or she is salary and working 50-hour+ weeks. Raise the minimum wage to a more-reasonable (but still not reasonable) $20/hr and that straw man EMT has a little more clout when demanding better pay.

"Why should I bust my ass dealing with the dead and dying, working these long hours, when I could be a night security guard and make the exact same pay?!?!?!?"

Better minimum wages are the best example of the idiom "a rising tide lifts all boats."

And let's get real for a moment. $20/hr in Hawaii, after payroll taxes, is $600 per 40-hour week. (I just ran the numbers.) What is the hard-working grocery clerk going to do with $2,400 per month in take-home pay? That isn't a life. That isn't even existence. The people who work the tourist jobs that Hawaii timeshare visitors rely on are lucky if they're making that. I think it's appalling.


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## Henry M. (Dec 7, 2022)

Around here businesses just don't get workers if they don't offer a decent wage. Here $15/hr goes a lot further than in Hawaii. Many customer facing servers in Hawaii are making over $20/hr plus tips.

Maybe the low end jobs that barely pay minimum wage should just be stepping stone towards something better? Do you expect someone to be able to sustain themselves at the low end without roommates or others contributing to the household expenses? Should even the most menial job provide for someone's complete living expenses?


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 7, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> I'm just looking for even a little consistency. You seem to be bankrupt on that.
> 
> You seem to be far more concerned with whether someone is deserving of decent wages than actually fixing any problems. And none of the fixes had better affect your pocketbook.
> 
> ...


Sorry, can't relate to your last comments.  I won't comment on responses that have little or no relevance to my positions and my previous statements.


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## bnoble (Dec 7, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> Should even the most menial job provide for someone's complete living expenses?



Food, clothing, shelter? Yes.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 7, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> The thing with doctors, nurses and even home health/homecare aides is that their salaries are not typically paid for by taxes. Most of them work for private companies that get paid by their clients (or, more accurately/often, their clients' insurance). The free market determines what they get paid. There is no free market for determining public school teacher wages, they just make an agreement with the government and it gets forced down the taxpayer's throat.


Now I get it.  Your position is that since public school teachers get paid by the Government they can't be paid more since it will raise taxes.   I understand your position, but don't agree with it.  Public schools are extremely important to raising up standard of living of those in the lower and even middle income brackets who can't afford private schools. 

I will state my position on the issue of public versus private schools in Hawaii.  (By way this is also true in New York City, but not on Long Island and I will address that later)

Private Schools in Hawaii are currently better than public schools.  Families who can afford private school for their children pay to send their children to public schools.  Since the higher income people send their children to private schools they have little interest in paying more in taxes to improve public schools.  Furthermore, those higher income people do not care if good public school teachers leave do to low pay or that those that are most enthusiastic and motivated to become teachers will flock to private schools rather than public schools.  The children that come from lower income families and go to public schools are those that are typically from minority groups. In New York City it is African Americans and Hispanics.  In Hawaii it is Native Hawaiians, Pacific Islanders, Filipinos, and some Asian Groups.   It smacks of classism and racism.

Private School versus Public Schools on Long Island.  I have an interesting life experience with public and private school education on Long Island.  I went to public elementary school.  My Mother wanted me to go to the new Catholic Elementary School (K-8) that opened in our neighborhood for 7th and 8th grade.  I told her I didn't want to so I went to the public Junior High for 7th and 8th grade.  Well in 9th grade kids who went to the Cathoic Elementary School and didn't go on to a Catholic High School which was not in our neighborhood were mixed together with the kids from the Junior High.  I was just a 75-80 average student in 7th and 8th grade.  The kids from the Catholic Elementary School came with 95-97 averages.  However, in 9th grade I blew those Catholic School kids away academically and did much bettter than they did.  Most of the public schools on Long Island are excellent as opposed to the quality of public schools in NYC or Hawaii.


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## sponger76 (Dec 7, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Public schools are extremely important to raising up standard of living of those in the lower and even middle income brackets who can't afford private schools.


I have to disagree. Public schools are important for teaching the basics - reading, writing, math, etc. Beyond enabling people to the achieve the bare minimum to participate in society (and they sometimes fail at that objective, graduating students who can't really do those simple tasks), they don't raise the standard of living. I see generations of families who go to public schools and the successive generations are not any better off, and in some cases end up worse off. What raises up the standard of living is making good choices: choosing a good career, some of which do not require college, or else choosing to go to college and going into a major that actually translates into good employment. Some college degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on in terms of a well-paying job, much less the tons of money expended to obtain them.


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## lynne (Dec 7, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> I have to disagree. Public schools are important for teaching the basics - reading, writing, math, etc. Beyond enabling people to the achieve the bare minimum to participate in society (and they sometimes fail at that objective, graduating students who can't really do those simple tasks), they don't raise the standard of living. I see generations of families who go to public schools and the successive generations are not any better off, and in some cases end up worse off. What raises up the standard of living is making good choices: choosing a good career, some of which do not require college, or else choosing to go to college and going into a major that actually translates into good employment. Some college degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on in terms of a well-paying job, much less the tons of money expended to obtain them.


At one time, I was a student assistant and taught a basic geology class on Long Island at Nassau Community College.  I was appaled that some schools on Long Island simply advanced students from grade to grade without the necessary skills.  There was on student that in my class who was illiterate and did not have the basic concepts of reading or writing.  Since this was a community college, the bar to get enrolled was set pretty low, but common sense shoud have prevailed and not matriculated this child into college.

Since @Tamaradarann pointed out that schools on Long Island are superior because of teacher salaries, I really need to disagree.   It is the professionalism of someone who goes into that particular field and wants to devote their life to teaching our youth.   Good salaries are a byproduct of some districts but does not insure that you child will be getting a great eduation.  The student has to want to learn, the teacher has to want to teach.

Native Hawaiians have the opportunity to send their children to Kamehameha Schools which is highly subsidized and provides a premier education in the state on par or exceeding Hawaii's private schools.  Yes, the child has to display the aptitude to want to learn but there are options.

We also have a very large network of home schooled children who graduate and go on to higher education or in some cases, become very successful entrepreneurs.

To your point, one size does not fit all.
​.
​


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## ScoopKona (Dec 7, 2022)

lynne said:


> I was appaled that some schools on Long Island simple advanced students from grade to grade without the necessary skills.



I grew up in an area with worthless schools -- the sort of schools which taught the Lost Cause theory of the Civil War, and that evolution is a hoax.

So I was shuttled up north where I attended great schools -- the kind of schools that make best-of lists.
Even at these schools, most of the students did not gain any advantage being there (other than checking a box for the next prep-school). Since the average student had no real interest in learning, these schools were just more-expensive versions of public schools, albeit with stricter rules. When these students finally graduated high school, daddy endowed his alma mater (where the entire family is a legacy, back to the antebellum period). These privileged kids were sent off to the Ivy League to obtain their gentleman's C.

The point is that even in the private schools where teachers are paid double, most of the kids are mouth-breathers who are only there because they chose the right parents.

My wife is a recently-retired special education teacher. She gauges her success not by how many Nobel Laureates she helps mold; but by how many children she can keep out of prison. Put a price on_ that._


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## Henry M. (Dec 7, 2022)

bnoble said:


> Food, clothing, shelter? Yes.


To live alone in a housing unit, or can it require a couple of people to pool their resources?


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## ScoopKona (Dec 7, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> To live alone in a housing unit, or can it require a couple of people to pool their resources?



I have an 80 (or 90)-year old auntie neighbor who demands that things were better right around statehood because, "finally, enough houses were built. Then they stopped building and now it's horrible." People didn't stop moving here. They just stopped building enough houses to support influx.

If we fix housing, most of the state's problems go away because of that. 

Our big picture problems are: 1) We have let inflation run away from reality -- wages are laughable. 2) There aren't enough houses to support our population.

And since the average person doesn't get supply vs. demand; they lay the blame on "greedy investors" and "greedy landlords" and "greedy millionaires." They don't lay the blame on "not enough houses to go around."


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## davidvel (Dec 8, 2022)

There are basically two competing beliefs at play here:

Group 1 generally believes that there are low-end jobs requiring little skill, education and experience that do not need to pay enough for one to live alone with all clothing, food shelter, insurance, etc paid. This Group considers these to be entry level jobs such as high school students or others entering the workforce with little to no skill, education or experience, who either live with parents or roommates, keeping their expenses as low as possible as needed to cover costs, while they gain skill, education and experience for a higher paying job. They believe that jobs should and will pay wages based on supply and demand of available workers for a particular job, which includes and is dependent on the the skill, education and experience of available workers. 

Group 2 generally believes that the government should mandate that all jobs should pay enough (minimum wage) for an individual to live alone with all clothing, food shelter, insurance, etc paid, despite the job requiring little to no skill, education or experience. Many in this Group also advocate further, that the government should mandate that all jobs should pay enough (living wage)  that the worker can support a family, including multiple dependents, to provide all clothing, food shelter, insurance, etc. for 3-5 persons, regardless of the person's skill, education or experience. 

There may be variations of the above, but generally, the two Groups don't change their minds, despite arguments form those in the other Group.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 8, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> I grew up in an area with worthless schools -- the sort of schools which taught the Lost Cause theory of the Civil War, and that evolution is a hoax.
> 
> So I was shuttled up north where I attended great schools -- the kind of schools that make best-of lists.
> Even at these schools, most of the students did not gain any advantage being there (other than checking a box for the next prep-school). Since the average student had no real interest in learning, these schools were just more-expensive versions of public schools, albeit with stricter rules. When these students finally graduated high school, daddy endowed his alma mater (where the entire family is a legacy, back to the antebellum period). These privileged kids were sent off to the Ivy League to obtain their gentleman's C.
> ...



Our Daughter is a Special Education Teacher and we have a great deal of respect for those that are in that field, not only in keeping children out of prison, which is something we need more of in Honolulu after the recent stabbing of a man in Waikiki by 5 youths, but in our Daughter's case helping those with speech and hearing disabilities.  

The legacy comment brings up one of my bitches with respect our Income Tax Policy for inherited wealth.  The Income tax on capital gains for real estate and stocks is a sham.  I will give this example.   If one buys a million dollar piece of real estate or a million dollars in stock and the investment doubles in value in 2 years and then is sold, the owner must pay capital gains on the million dollar captial gain.  However, if the owner passes away 2 years later the home or stock is inherited with a step value of 2 million dollars.  Therefore, those who inherit that home of investment can sell the home or stock for 2 million dollars and pay NO CAPTIAL GAINS TAX.


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## Henry M. (Dec 8, 2022)

I'd be interested in good arguments for the beliefs of Group 2. I've seen the belief expressed, but not any reasoning of why it is supposed to be fair or workable. I am genuinely interested in hearing perspectives in favor of it, rather than looking to argue.


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## NiteMaire (Dec 8, 2022)

Several topics below...


sponger76 said:


> The thing with property taxes is that a lot of local families already can barely afford to live in Hawaii. Raising property taxes just makes it harder for them to have a roof over their head.


Agree. While the real estate tax (%) is relatively low, income tax is high as well as vehicle registration.  When we moved here 3.5 years ago, our AD moved with us.  She's considering moving back to the mainland due to the cost of living.  She feels like she must live with us in order to afford it, and that's not a good feeling for her.


Tamaradarann said:


> The real estate taxes don't have to be raised equally on everybody. Already there are different rates for more expensive real estate versus less expensive. The taxes on the more expensive real estate say over $1,000,000 can be raised much more. Also, there is an exemption for owner occupancy of a residence. That exemption can be increased so that owner occupied real estate taxes don't go up at all.


The MEDIAN price of a single-family home on Oahu was $1.15M in April 2022!  Raising taxes on $1M homes means raising taxes on more than 50% of homeowners on Oahu.  The relatively low real estate tax and mortgage rate are the only reason we could afford the home we purchased.  We couldn't afford the same home today with current interest rates (and prices).  Higher real estate taxes will simply mean we spend less on local businesses. 


pedro47 said:


> What is the average home value for a native Hawaiian and what is the average cost for a new home built in Maui 2022?


I don't know about Maui, but as mentioned above the median price of homes on Oahu is more than $1M.  Home prices here are crazy.  Several homes in our area recently sold for more than $1K/sq-ft...the highest being $1244/sq-ft. Yes, $1244!  A house less than 1500 sq-ft sold for more than $1.8M!


ScoopKona said:


> the economic reality is that home ownership isn't in the cards except for high-wage earning families.


Mostly agree; some get by because they live in a multi-family home or they inherit a home.  My neighbor 4 doors down has 11 people living in his house (him, his 3 sons, 3 daughters-in-law, and 4 grandkids).  While I haven't been in it, it's not a big house.


Tamaradarann said:


> Building affordable housing instead of multimillion dollar house and condos is another initative that I have very much in favor of.


Even the affordable home program here was criticized here since homes were $1M (IIRC).  Affordable for locals?  Hardly.


vacationtime1 said:


> A flat tax on non-Hawaii tourists such as the $50/pp suggested could be seen as affecting the right of a non-Hawaii resident to travel to Hawaii and therefore violate our constitutional right to travel (yes, the U.S. Constitution protects mainlanders' right to travel to Hawaii).


I thought I saw an option of taxing everyone, but allowing HI residents to claim a refund on those taxes when filed. 


ScoopKona said:


> And I'll keep mentioning it, the family renting out a Ohana or a spare room in order to pay the bills is going to be the first to feel the effects of any anti-AirBnB legislation.


I agree with this.  We're adding on to our home since our AS recently moved in with us.  We have an option of making it an ADU, Ohana unit, or a "recreational room".  We're pursuing the ADU in the event we'd like to rent it in the future.  While we have no plans to rent it, we're looking to maximize what we're able to do with the new space if/when he moves.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 8, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> I'd be interested in good arguments for the beliefs of Group 2. I've seen the belief expressed, but not any reasoning of why it is supposed to be fair or workable. I am genuinely interested in hearing perspectives in favor of it, rather than looking to argue.



Having grown up in Key West, I saw first hand what happens when a town gentrifies itself right out of reach of mere mortals. There were a lot of reasons why I left town. But the main, overriding reason was that the town simply wasn't fun anymore. All the interesting people had left -- leaving investors in their place.

Quality of life kept plummeting. And residency (except for investors) was a revolving door of people who said, "I should take this job in Key West! I love it there!"

Six months later, it's, "How does anyone afford to live here? I'm out!"

Since I'm not a cheerleader for any single group in Hawaii, I have plenty to say about locals who gamble away their family's money in Las Vegas. And families who cash out (and gamble) instead of handing down. Much of the island's economic woes are self inflicted.

But if someone is performing useful work -- working the grocery store, cooking, teaching, taking X-rays, driving an ambulance or even taking tourists on manta ray trips -- they deserve to be able to live in their community. A place to stay, enough to eat.*

Minimum wages aren't just for teenagers. When the minimum wage was enacted, the person who signed it into law has this to say about it:
_
"In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By business I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living."_



* Pink Floyd lyric


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## Henry M. (Dec 8, 2022)

I still don't see a good explanation of why the very lowest levels of jobs should pay enough for a person to afford their own housing (without pooling resources with others) and such. FDR expresses a goal, but doesn't justify why that is a good goal to pursue for every single job level. Sure, everyone should be able to have a decent living wage. Everyone should have the opportunity to prosper. However, that doesn't mean every job, even the most menial, should provide such a wage or that there shouldn't be a modicum of effort involved in earning such living wages. He is also not saying what level of work needs to provide the decent living. It is nice to talk in generalities, but the devil is in the details. Relationships have at least 2 participants. The business needs to pay a decent wage for needed work, but the worker needs to provide a reasonably useful work output in order to get that wage. There needs to be some balance in the relationship. It is not simply a matter that if someone performs the most simple job that they will have a decent living wage.

Then there's the definition of what decent living means. Should it include some basic niceties, like cell service, a TV, internet service, a certain amount of square feet per occupant, enough to buy the devices to use the services, the ability for a single wage earner to carry the load for a family of 4 or 5?

I agree gentrification is a problem in many areas. However, that goes beyond a minimum wage. When the median price of a home is over $1 million, no minimum wage is going to provide enough for paying rent or buying a home. They built some "affordable housing" in Lahaina next to Cannery Mall, at over $600K, and now those homes are selling for near $1 million. Even a good professional wage makes it difficult to acquire such property. On the other hand, that is what the open market values the homes at, and there is little that can be done about that without introducing other problems into the local economy.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 8, 2022)

I've already lived someplace where this happened, and the end result isn't pretty. 

You know how some people always demand, "Why don't we just raise the minimum wage to $1,000 an hour and everyone can be a millionaire?" As if that is a cogent rebuttal?

We actually do see places where "Why don't we just make all the real estate high end to the point where normal people can't afford to live there." And then we end up with places like Maui. Who is going to mix the drinks, maintain the golf carts and cook food for the ruling class who "deserve" to be there, thanks to Adam Smith's invisible hand?

We can't have a wage scale where everyone makes scads of money. But we also can't have a society where every resident is UHNW and there are no janitors.


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## Henry M. (Dec 8, 2022)

Residents will eventually have to pay whatever it takes to get the services they need. That will make it even more expensive and exclusive to live in the area. It will certainly reduce the load on the environment too, as only a few will be able to afford it.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 8, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> Residents will eventually have to pay whatever it takes to get the services they need. That will make it even more expensive and exclusive to live in the area. It will certainly reduce the load on the environment too, as only a few will be able to afford it.



There is much that can be done. The first thing that can be done is to build low-income housing projects which investors want nothing to do with.

The second thing that can be done is to remove short-term hotel and timeshare units (converting as many as possible into long-term) so that there aren't so many visitors, outnumbering residents.

And the third thing that can be done is to raise minimum wages to a level where someone can afford an inexpensive studio apartment and feed him or herself.

None of those things are being done. And I doubt they will be until Thurston Howell III can't get a Mai Tai.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 9, 2022)

NiteMaire said:


> Several topics below...
> 
> Agree. While the real estate tax (%) is relatively low, income tax is high as well as vehicle registration.  When we moved here 3.5 years ago, our AD moved with us.  She's considering moving back to the mainland due to the cost of living.  She feels like she must live with us in order to afford it, and that's not a good feeling for her.
> 
> ...



Your not the only one that couldn't afford real estate in Hawaii if the real estate tax was much higher.  One of my thoughts that I have is that the low real estate taxes is one of the reasons that so many people can buy real estate here at such high prices and that ability to buy keeps the prices high.  I wonder what the prices would be like if the real estate taxes were 10 times as high and now with interest rates at about 7%. 

I agree with you that an affordable home program where homes are a million dollars is ridiculous.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 9, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> One of my thoughts that I have is that the low real estate taxes is one of the reasons that so many people can buy real estate here at such high prices and that ability to buy keeps the prices high.



Investors look at the rate of return -- they don't care what the property taxes are on a property which is doubling in value every few years.

Investors also aren't buying properties while undercapitalized. They have the means to pay the taxes, insurance and maintenance to keep their investment in tip-top shape.

Most workers in Hawaii rent. All renters pay property tax. It's cooked into the rent. Jack property taxes, and nobody will be able to afford to live in Hawaii, except multi-millionaires. Counties could jack property taxes, and then offer homestead/affordable housing exemptions to bring them back down for residents. Investors will quickly find a workaround. There is always a way around any financial problem -- providing the person has capital to throw at the problem. The poor can't buy any solutions to their economic problems -- that's why they're poor.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 9, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Investors look at the rate of return -- they don't care what the property taxes are on a property which is doubling in value every few years.
> 
> Investors also aren't buying properties while undercapitalized. They have the means to pay the taxes, insurance and maintenance to keep their investment in tip-top shape.
> 
> Most workers in Hawaii rent. All renters pay property tax. It's cooked into the rent. Jack property taxes, and nobody will be able to afford to live in Hawaii, except multi-millionaires. Counties could jack property taxes, and then offer homestead/affordable housing exemptions to bring them back down for residents. Investors will quickly find a workaround. There is always a way around any financial problem -- providing the person has capital to throw at the problem. The poor can't buy any solutions to their economic problems -- that's why they're poor.



If they raise property tax on non owner occupied property and raise the GET on everything (but exempt unprepared food which is what residents mostly eat) "Think of the things you can do with that money".   That is a line from Jesus Christ Superstar but it is relevant here.

If the Government is going to provide assistance to low income people they need sources of money.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 9, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> If they raise property tax on non owner occupied property and raise the GET on everything (but exempt unprepared food which is what residents mostly eat) "Think of the things you can do with that money".   That is a line from Jesus Christ Superstar but it is relevant here.


While the GET isn't insignificant, the amount people will save is peanuts compared to rent and home ownership.

You are focusing on pennies and ignoring pounds.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 9, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> While the GET isn't insignificant, the amount people will save is peanuts compared to rent and home ownership.
> 
> You are focusing on pennies and ignoring pounds.


You are supposed to:  "Think of the things you can do with that money".


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## geist1223 (Dec 9, 2022)

Boy as this drifted from the original Post.


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## sponger76 (Dec 9, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> If they raise property tax on non owner occupied property and raise the GET on everything (but exempt unprepared food which is what residents mostly eat) "Think of the things you can do with that money".   That is a line from Jesus Christ Superstar but it is relevant here.
> 
> If the Government is going to provide assistance to low income people they need sources of money.


If you raise the GET on everything else, even if you exempt unprepared food you'll be raising costs for residents. Unprepared food isn't the only thing they buy. It'll cost them more to buy clothes, cars, you name it.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 10, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> If you raise the GET on everything else, even if you exempt unprepared food you'll be raising costs for residents. Unprepared food isn't the only thing they buy. It'll cost them more to buy clothes, cars, you name it.


Also raise the property tax non owner occupied property.......

..... Then  "Think of the things you can do with that money".


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## sponger76 (Dec 10, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Also raise the property tax non owner occupied property.......
> 
> ..... Then  "Think of the things you can do with that money".


Raising property tax on non owner occupied property goes back to impacting renters. Those costs will be passed along from the landlord to the tenant. This has been pointed out over and over again. Think of the things those locals who can't afford to buy a house will no longer be able to do with that money....


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 10, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> Raising property tax on non owner occupied property goes back to impacting renters. Those costs will be passed along from the landlord to the tenant. This has been pointed out over and over again. Think of the things those locals who can't afford to buy a house will no longer be able to do with that money....


First of all all absentee owners are not renting their units.  In addition some that do rent are not renting to working class people.  I have seen rents in the 10,000/month range.  

Furthrmore, I just got a notice from the Condo Association of Hawaii saying that there are subsities that are available for those that are low income (under 150K income but first preference given to under 100K income) due to not being able to pay your mortgage or rent due to the Corona Virus.  Can't we come up with a method to subsidies low income renters do to the increase in rent that is a result of the increase in property taxes (I don't know if I consider someone making $145K/year low income) with the money we collect from these higher property taxes?


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## geist1223 (Dec 10, 2022)

In British Columbia Canada if a non-Canadian Citizen/non-Resident Alien buys a House, Condo, etc there is a 20% Tax added on to the purchase price. Also if non-Canadian Citizen/non-Resident Alien spends less than "X" days (I think 180 days) then the Property Tax goes up a lot.


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## sponger76 (Dec 10, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> First of all all absentee owners are not renting their units.  In addition some that do rent are not renting to working class people.  I have seen rents in the 10,000/month range.
> 
> Furthrmore, I just got a notice from the Condo Association of Hawaii saying that there are subsities that are available for those that are low income (under 150K income but first preference given to under 100K income) due to not being able to pay your mortgage or rent due to the Corona Virus.  Can't we come up with a method to subsidies low income renters do to the increase in rent that is a result of the increase in property taxes (I don't know if I consider someone making $145K/year low income) with the money we collect from these higher property taxes?


Absentee owners absolutely are renting their units. Where have you been? Lots of long-term rentals, both single family home and apartments, at least on O'ahu, are owned by landlords who do not live in the units. Some of those owners are individuals and corporations on the mainland. The last apartment I rented when I still lived there was owned by a mainland company. The apartments in the building (24 floors) were not all owned by one company or individual, each was owned separately.

The subsidies you speak of were funded by the federal government through COVID-specific legislation, and was not unlimited. They distributed a certain amount to each state to administer. That overall took a huge sum of money, which as a country we cannot afford to spend every year. That would be hundreds of billions of dollars every year across the country. Hawaii alone received $200 million. You raise property taxes enough to raise $200 million every year in Hawaii, you better believe it will come back to bite regular people in the butt, not just rich people or companies that own the properties. Plus, if you raise $200 million (or any amount) in property taxes from the owners of rental properties causing rents to rise, and then give it to the people who are renting those properties, it just goes right back into the pockets of the owners you took it from in the first place, so the money is moving in a circle for no reason. How is that benefitting anyone? You really, truly don't think about or understand the second and third order effects of your proposals. The good idea fairy is alive and well in this one.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 11, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> Absentee owners absolutely are renting their units. Where have you been? Lots of long-term rentals, both single family home and apartments, at least on O'ahu, are owned by landlords who do not live in the units. Some of those owners are individuals and corporations on the mainland. The last apartment I rented when I still lived there was owned by a mainland company. The apartments in the building (24 floors) were not all owned by one company or individual, each was owned separately.
> 
> The subsidies you speak of were funded by the federal government through COVID-specific legislation, and was not unlimited. They distributed a certain amount to each state to administer. That overall took a huge sum of money, which as a country we cannot afford to spend every year. That would be hundreds of billions of dollars every year across the country. Hawaii alone received $200 million. You raise property taxes enough to raise $200 million every year in Hawaii, you better believe it will come back to bite regular people in the butt, not just rich people or companies that own the properties. Plus, if you raise $200 million (or any amount) in property taxes from the owners of rental properties causing rents to rise, and then give it to the people who are renting those properties, it just goes right back into the pockets of the owners you took it from in the first place, so the money is moving in a circle for no reason. How is that benefitting anyone? You really, truly don't think about or understand the second and third order effects of your proposals. The good idea fairy is alive and well in this one.


I know about the derivation of the subsidies for Covid.  I just used that as a example of subsidies.  While I am not flush with money I am able to deal with the cost of living here in Hawaii by buying a low price Condo, not having a car, using the Senior Bus Pass for $45/year.  As others have stated some can't deal with the high cost of living in Hawaii even though they work and maybe even work 2 jobs.  

I am not sure what your definition of REGULAR PEOPLE is but I do know that the property taxes in Hawaii are extremely low.  I pay $1700/year on my Condo in Honolulu that is worth double what my House on Long Island is worth which I pay $9000/year in taxes.
These low taxes are a gift to the those who buy expensive properties and live part time in Hawaii.  It is also a gift to those that buy investment properties.  I am suggesting doing something about it.  I am happy with my $1700/year in property taxes.  Those that have low incomes in Hawaii are the ones that are hurting since the cost of housing is too high.  Bigger money from those that don't live in Hawaii full time are driving up the price of property and paying low property taxes.  I am suggesting doing something about it.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 11, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I am not sure what your definition of REGULAR PEOPLE is



Regular people don't own property here. They rent. So they are more susceptible to property tax increases -- they can't deduct them from their income taxes like you can.

A little empathy goes a long way...


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## sponger76 (Dec 11, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I am not sure what your definition of REGULAR PEOPLE is but I do know that the property taxes in Hawaii are extremely low.  I pay $1700/year on my Condo in Honolulu that is worth double what my House on Long Island is worth which I pay $9000/year in taxes.


I can say that most regular people in Hawaii can't afford a condo in Honolulu, much less that plus a house in Long Island.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 12, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Regular people don't own property here. They rent. So they are more susceptible to property tax increases -- they can't deduct them from their income taxes like you can.
> 
> A little empathy goes a long way...





ScoopKona said:


> Regular people don't own property here. They rent. So they are more susceptible to property tax increases -- they can't deduct them from their income taxes like you can.
> 
> A little empathy goes a long way...


Are you saying that the reason that property taxes stay so low in Hawaii is so that the owners of rentals keep the rents lower.  That is a argument that I have never heard before.  I need to discuss that one with others since the logic is a new one on me.  While I have never been in favor of it before, it seems like that would be an argument for rent control like they have in New York City.  

We do not itemize deductions on our income tax returns so propety taxes are not deductble for us.


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## lotus921v (Dec 12, 2022)

DaveNV said:


> So if I understand what I just read, even though the money they're making per room has increased substantially since before the pandemic, a third of rooms still go unoccupied each night. Seems to me they could reduce the prices some, and increase the occupancy rates, bringing in more revenue overall.
> 
> Does this include timeshares as well, or just hotels?
> 
> Dave




If they can make their revenue with higher room rates without paying extra housekeeping or maintenance wages, why would they want higher occupancy?


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 12, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> I can say that most regular people in Hawaii can't afford a condo in Honolulu, much less that plus a house in Long Island.


We can't afford both a Condo in Honolulu and a house in Long Island either that is why we are selling our house in Long Island since the recent inflation has stretched our finances to the limit.   Condo's in Hawaii are less expensive than Houses that is one of the reasons we own a Condo in Honolulu.

To summarize you and ScoopKona are saying that regular or average people in Hawaii rent and don't own where they live, so that the concern with raising property taxes is that the owners of rental units would raise the rent which would hurt the regular or average person.  What if the taxes were not raised on the lower assessed properties say 1 million or 700K.  How many regular people rent a property that is assessed over a million?  I know my Condo is assessed way under a million.


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## sponger76 (Dec 12, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> We can't afford both a Condo in Honolulu and a house in Long Island either that is why we are selling our house in Long Island since the recent inflation has stretched our finances to the limit.   Condo's in Hawaii are less expensive than Houses that is one of the reasons we own a Condo in Honolulu.
> 
> To summarize you and ScoopKona are saying that regular or average people in Hawaii rent and don't own where they live, so that the concern with raising property taxes is that the owners of rental units would raise the rent which would hurt the regular or average person.  What if the taxes were not raised on the lower assessed properties say 1 million or 700K.  How many regular people rent a property that is assessed over a million?  I know my Condo is assessed way under a million.


Well, since the median single family home sales price on O'ahu is over a million, (see https://www.locationshawaii.com/learn/market-reports/oahu-real-estate-report/) I'd say a fair amount of regular people are renting property that is assessed over a million. Yes, condos are a lot lower, but that is not the majority of the available rental market.


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## DaveNV (Dec 12, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> If they can make their revenue with higher room rates without paying extra housekeeping or maintenance wages, why would they want higher occupancy?



I guess I'd expect a hotel would want to fill their rooms.  Reducing prices some, but getting increased occupancy at the lower pricing, would make the company more money in the long run. Return-visitors would happen more, word of mouth would help, and so forth.  The old adage about a "short term nickel vs. a long-term quarter."

Dave


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## ScoopKona (Dec 12, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> Are you saying that the reason that property taxes stay so low in Hawaii is so that the owners of rentals keep the rents lower.



I can't believe I'm explaining this. But property taxes are set by the county. They decide on the assessed value. And they decide the mill rate. And from that, property taxes are determined. Landlords are just as powerless about taxes as other property owners. They get a bill. They pay the bill. They pass taxes off to their tenants, along with maintenance, insurance and profit.

Raising property taxes will directly raise rent. Landlords don't rent property out of the goodness of their hearts. It's a difficult and often dirty job. So they expect monthly income for their trouble.

For the umpteenth time. The entire strategy here is for commercial short-term landlords -- hotels, AirBnBs traditional BnBs, campgrounds and timeshares -- to make the same money with less occupancy. Lower occupancy means fewer traffic jams and less strain on infrastructure. The pendulum has clearly swung too far in the direction of "let tourist do whatever they please." Time to rein it in.


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## lynne (Dec 12, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> We can't afford both a Condo in Honolulu and a house in Long Island either that is why we are selling our house in Long Island since the recent inflation has stretched our finances to the limit.   Condo's in Hawaii are less expensive than Houses that is one of the reasons we own a Condo in Honolulu.
> 
> To summarize you and ScoopKona are saying that regular or average people in Hawaii rent and don't own where they live, so that the concern with raising property taxes is that the owners of rental units would raise the rent which would hurt the regular or average person.  What if the taxes were not raised on the lower assessed properties say 1 million or 700K.  How many regular people rent a property that is assessed over a million?  I know my Condo is assessed way under a million.


I do have a difference of opinion on the long term rental rates.  We purchased our home here in 2001 and hired a property manager (on-island property managers are required for all rentals when the owner is not living in the county or state) at 20% commission and rented our 3 bedroom/2 bath home on 5 acres (macadamia nut orchard also on the property) for a grand total of $1400/month and we contracted with a local macnut processor to attend to the macnuts and orchard and all the profits would be theirs.  We also paid to have the acreage mowed every other week.  Our property taxes were higher since we did not live in the state, but all we wanted to do was to keep the house occupied and break even with our costs.   We kept the home rented until we moved permanently in 2006 and took over the orchard maintenance as well as the property upkeep.  After we moved here permanently, we applied as permanent residents and a year later our property taxes were adjusted to reflect that we were now full time residents.

Yes, we are probably outside the norm but there are others who operate their long term rental properties to break even and support our local residents.  One of my friends purchased a home in Kamuela due to the estate sale of her mom's home in California and did a complete remodel.  That home is being rented without a crazy profit to locals as well.

It is the short term rentals where the property owners can make large profits.  Most of the long term rentals are not in the same category.

My advice to you is if you genuinely feel that property taxes are not fair and you want to do something, contribute to the local food banks, habitat for humanity and other services that desperately need funds to help our residents who are just getting by.


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## lotus921v (Dec 12, 2022)

DaveNV said:


> I guess I'd expect a hotel would want to fill their rooms.  Reducing prices some, but getting increased occupancy at the lower pricing, would make the company more money in the long run. Return-visitors would happen more, word of mouth would help, and so forth.  The old adage about a "short term nickel vs. a long-term quarter."
> 
> Dave




Except that it costs more to turn over and keep up more rooms which increases wear and tear and wage overhead.  

I own a medical practice.  I have a minimum reimbursement threshold to what I will accept or I begin providing services and taking on increased liability to break even or lose money.

Busier isn’t always better.

I am sure those resorts have done a cost share analysis of their rates


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## DaveNV (Dec 12, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> Except that it costs more to turn over and keep up more rooms which increases wear and tear and wage overhead.
> 
> I own a medical practice.  I have a minimum reimbursement threshold to what I will accept or I begin providing services and taking on increased liability to break even or lose money.
> 
> ...



I get what you're saying.  But it seems to me that their paying customers would be better served if they felt like they were getting good value for the dollar, and not feel like they were being taken advantage of.

Dave


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## Henry M. (Dec 12, 2022)

I don't feel taken advantage of just because one hotel is more expensive than another. In fact, a less crowded location with better services is more attractive than a cheaper place that cuts corners to service more guests with a given staff size.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 12, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> I don't feel taken advantage of just because one hotel is more expensive than another. In fact, a less crowded location with better services is more attractive than a cheaper place that cuts corners to service more guests with a given staff size.



Hear, hear! 

And life is better for everyone -- tourists and residents -- when there aren't daily traffic jams. When the restaurants aren't always in the weeds. (Dans le merde for the classically-trained.) When the infrastructure isn't strained to the breaking point. 

We really need to focus on quality of life, and not just "heads in beds."


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## Henry M. (Dec 12, 2022)

The problem is this doesn't accommodate the very lowest incomes. Eventually those that can afford to pay to come will pay enough to support those that provide services. That group will not necessarily include native Hawaiians or others at the very low end. The whole island will become a playground for the very wealthy and those that serve them. I don't see how you would be able to accommodate low incomes in a place with very limited space to build and live. If the place is attractive, the laws of supply and demand will set the price and the level of income necessary to afford the place. You might find temporary ways to sustain very low incomes, but eventually the place will be occupied by those that can afford it and are willing to pay to be there. They will displace those that don't have the means to compete with them to buy up the nice property. It happens to every nice place you might want to live in.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 12, 2022)

Henry M. said:


> The problem is this doesn't accommodate the very lowest incomes.



The very lowest incomes aren't visiting Hawaii anyway.

This is squarely in "first world problem" territory.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 12, 2022)

lynne said:


> I do have a difference of opinion on the long term rental rates.  We purchased our home here in 2001 and hired a property manager (on-island property managers are required for all rentals when the owner is not living in the county or state) at 20% commission and rented our 3 bedroom/2 bath home on 5 acres (macadamia nut orchard also on the property) for a grand total of $1400/month and we contracted with a local macnut processor to attend to the macnuts and orchard and all the profits would be theirs.  We also paid to have the acreage mowed every other week.  Our property taxes were higher since we did not live in the state, but all we wanted to do was to keep the house occupied and break even with our costs.   We kept the home rented until we moved permanently in 2006 and took over the orchard maintenance as well as the property upkeep.  After we moved here permanently, we applied as permanent residents and a year later our property taxes were adjusted to reflect that we were now full time residents.
> 
> Yes, we are probably outside the norm but there are others who operate their long term rental properties to break even and support our local residents.  One of my friends purchased a home in Kamuela due to the estate sale of her mom's home in California and did a complete remodel.  That home is being rented without a crazy profit to locals as well.
> 
> ...


We do donate to the food bank and actually are active in getting other in the Condo to do the same.  We have run fun raisers for Habitat for Humanity and have helped build homes.   However, I don't need your advice about what I should do if I feel property taxes are not fair.

Frankly I don't care what they do about taxes nor do I care if they charge tourists even $1000/trip.  I have been giving my opinion on tax issues If Hawaii goes in those directions fine, if they go in a different direction fine as well.  By selling our house on Long Island we will be a financial position to deal with the inflation, coming recession, federal tax hikes, etc.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 12, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> I can't believe I'm explaining this. But property taxes are set by the county. They decide on the assessed value. And they decide the mill rate. And from that, property taxes are determined. Landlords are just as powerless about taxes as other property owners. They get a bill. They pay the bill. They pass taxes off to their tenants, along with maintenance, insurance and profit.
> 
> Raising property taxes will directly raise rent. Landlords don't rent property out of the goodness of their hearts. It's a difficult and often dirty job. So they expect monthly income for their trouble.
> 
> For the umpteenth time. The entire strategy here is for commercial short-term landlords -- hotels, AirBnBs traditional BnBs, campgrounds and timeshares -- to make the same money with less occupancy. Lower occupancy means fewer traffic jams and less strain on infrastructure. The pendulum has clearly swung too far in the direction of "let tourist do whatever they please." Time to rein it in.


You convinced me that raising property taxes will raise rents.  Wow, since we plan on selling our house on Long Island and residing full time in Hawaii, I am sure glad that my property taxes are lower here in Hawaii.  Also, since we don't need a car here we are also glad that we don't need to buy a car, pay for parking, pay for car insurance, pay for car maintenance, or pay for gas here in Hawaii.  We also don't need oil for heat.  I think it will be less expensive for us to live in Hawaii than on Long Island.


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## slip (Dec 12, 2022)

Just to throw this out there again. The only thing that has been proposed is a $50 fee for visitors and paying for some parking on areas on Maui is starting next year. I haven't seen any talk about changes in taxes.


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## slip (Dec 12, 2022)

Tamaradarann said:


> I think it will be less expensive for us to live in Hawaii than on Long Island.


I hear this often from many people who live in California too.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 12, 2022)

slip said:


> I hear this often from many people who live in California too.


I didn't even mention that we don't need to or pay some one to mow lawn, trim the trees, pick up leaves and pine needles, shovel the snow, maintain the pool etc.  We also don't need to worry about putting down ice melt to avoid slipping on the ice.


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## lynne (Dec 12, 2022)

slip said:


> Just to throw this out there again. The only thing that has been proposed is a $50 fee for visitors and paying for some parking on areas on Maui is starting next year. I haven't seen any talk about changes in taxes.


I agree with you 100%.  I don't understand how the thread initially got sidetracked to taxes but it surely invoked some lively comments (me included).   Maybe it is time to close this topic until there is more clarification on Maui parking plans and start over.


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## slip (Dec 12, 2022)

lynne said:


> I agree with you 100%.  I don't understand how the thread initially got sidetracked to taxes but it surely invoked some lively comments (me included).   Maybe it is time to close this topic until there is more clarification on Maui parking plans and start over.



I don't mind the banter but that's all it is.


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## jehb2 (Dec 13, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> Really, it's about $0.50 worth of food. If you believe the shrimp doesn't come frozen out of a bag, I have a bridge from Big Island to Maui to sell you.





Tamaradarann said:


> The price of food has gone up everywhere so having it go up alot in Hawaii where much of it must be imported for thousands of miles


We were sitting in the food court in the Queen’s Shops in Waikoloa Village on the Big Island.  A worker at one of the food court “restaurants“ walked in with a big flatbed shopping cart with groceries from Costco.  He had bags of the same chicken nuggets I gave my kids.  I just remember thinking 2 order of nuggets at his ”restaurant” costs more than what he paid for the entire bag of nuggets.  Thank goodness for timeshares with full kitchens.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 13, 2022)

jehb2 said:


> We were sitting in the food court in the Queen’s Shops in Waikoloa Village on the Big Island.  A worker at one of the food court “restaurants“ walked in with a big flatbed shopping cart with groceries from Costco.  He had bags of the same chicken nuggets I gave my kids.  I just remember thinking 2 order of nuggets at his ”restaurant” costs more than what he paid for the entire bag of nuggets.  Thank goodness for timeshares with full kitchens.


I totally agree with eating meals in a timeshare.  We always eat breakfast and lunch and at least 5 dinners each week in the timeshare.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 13, 2022)

lynne said:


> I agree with you 100%.  I don't understand how the thread initially got sidetracked to taxes but it surely invoked some lively comments (me included).   Maybe it is time to close this topic until there is more clarification on Maui parking plans and start over.


I went back to find out how we got on the subject of taxes from the higher hotel rates on Maui.  I am the culprit that started it; when I mentioned that since raising the hotel rates lowered the occupancy on Maui perhaps they found the magic bullet to reduce the number of tourists coming to Hawaii and with the increase in taxes on the higher room rate they don't need to implement the $50/person tourist tax which I labeled chintzy.


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## ScoopKona (Dec 13, 2022)

jehb2 said:


> We were sitting in the food court in the Queen’s Shops in Waikoloa Village on the Big Island.  A worker at one of the food court “restaurants“ walked in with a big flatbed shopping cart with groceries from Costco.  He had bags of the same chicken nuggets I gave my kids.  I just remember thinking 2 order of nuggets at his ”restaurant” costs more than what he paid for the entire bag of nuggets.  Thank goodness for timeshares with full kitchens.



If people realized just how badly they're being [censored] by most restaurants, they would get up and walk out, never to return.

The big-picture problem is that average Americans have become so disconnected from food that they have no idea if they are being ripped off or not. They don't know what raw ingredients cost. They don't know what's in season. They don't even know what's grown in their region. So they're incapable of making informed choices in restaurants. Hence, the $30 tater tots I've been mocking for the past few months.

And it's not just Hawaii. It's nationwide. The sad part is that there are small places which are "bringing it" from a culinary standpoint. But they're languishing because diners choose TGIMcFunsters*, where most food is dumped out of a bag into a deep fryer. The perceived "deal" of fried agricorp food has squeezed out the places that are actually trying to cook. Since our populous has become hopelessly ignorant about food, they're easy prey.

And even in fine-dining, where there is less shenanigans, there are still shenanigans -- such as "truffle" oil.

* A Bourdainism


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## davidvel (Dec 13, 2022)

I propose that Hawaii raise its income tax to a flat tax of 90% of net income, with a credit to native Hawaiians bringing the tax down to 30% at the top levels, and 0 for the lowest levels.

Then add a sin tax for all alcohol and coffee of 95%, and give all proceeds directly to native Hawaiians. Problems solved.


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## slip (Dec 14, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> If people realized just how badly they're being [censored] by most restaurants, they would get up and walk out, never to return.
> 
> The big-picture problem is that average Americans have become so disconnected from food that they have no idea if they are being ripped off or not. They don't know what raw ingredients cost. They don't know what's in season. They don't even know what's grown in their region. So they're incapable of making informed choices in restaurants. Hence, the $30 tater tots I've been mocking for the past few months.
> 
> ...



So how are you going to combat all that and have a successful place on your farm? Sounds like if you bring it, you could put a lot of money into a place that could languish. Restaurants have a 30% failure rate.


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## slip (Dec 14, 2022)

davidvel said:


> I propose that Hawaii raise its income tax to a flat tax of 90% of net income, with a credit to native Hawaiians bringing the tax down to 30% at the top levels, and 0 for the lowest levels.
> 
> Then add a sin tax for all alcohol and coffee of 95%, and give all proceeds directly to native Hawaiians. Problems solved.



There we have it, case closed on the taxes.


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## daviator (Dec 14, 2022)

slip said:


> So how are you going to combat all that and have a successful place on your farm? Sounds like if you bring it, you could put a lot of money into a place that could languish. Restaurants have a 30% failure rate.


Actually 30% failure is just in the first year.  60% of new restaurants fail within the first three years.  It's a hard business, more a labor of love than a real money maker for many/most mom and pop restaurants.


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## slip (Dec 14, 2022)

daviator said:


> Actually 30% failure is just in the first year.  60% of new restaurants fail within the first three years.  It's a hard business, more a labor of love than a real money maker for many/most mom and pop restaurants.



Yes, you are correct. I thought about adding to that after I posted but now I don't have to. Mahalo


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## ScoopKona (Dec 14, 2022)

slip said:


> So how are you going to combat all that and have a successful place on your farm? Sounds like if you bring it, you could put a lot of money into a place that could languish. Restaurants have a 30% failure rate.



I'm not opening a restaurant. I already own the farm outright. And our business model is agritourismo -- if visitors/locals don't buy the food we make, we'll just eat it. No way to lose.

Thankfully, the laws in place are almost agritourismo without having to fight the county. Wouldn't take but a nudge to make them the same as Italy.


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## slip (Dec 14, 2022)

ScoopKona said:


> I'm not opening a restaurant. I already own the farm outright. And our business model is agritourismo -- if visitors/locals don't buy the food we make, we'll just eat it. No way to lose.
> 
> Thankfully, the laws in place are almost agritourismo without having to fight the county. Wouldn't take but a nudge to make them the same as Italy.



I guess not opening a restaurant would solve that.


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## sponger76 (Dec 15, 2022)

davidvel said:


> I propose that Hawaii raise its income tax to a flat tax of 90% of net income, with a credit to native Hawaiians bringing the tax down to 30% at the top levels, and 0 for the lowest levels.
> 
> Then add a sin tax for all alcohol and coffee of 95%, and give all proceeds directly to native Hawaiians. Problems solved.


Then you're screwing over a lot of other people. A ton of Filipinos, Chinese, Japanese, etc. were brought over to work the sugar cane plantations waaaay back in the day. You gonna tell people whose families have lived in Hawaii for generations now and have no real connection to Asia but don't have Native Hawaiian blood "sorry, screw you, starve to death or move out of the state?"


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## davidvel (Dec 15, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> Then you're screwing over a lot of other people. A ton of Filipinos, Chinese, Japanese, etc. were brought over to work the sugar cane plantations waaaay back in the day. You gonna tell people whose families have lived in Hawaii for generations now and have no real connection to Asia but don't have Native Hawaiian blood "sorry, screw you, starve to death or move out of the state?"


No, just consider them natives. Only screw the rich people from out of town.


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## sponger76 (Dec 15, 2022)

davidvel said:


> No, just consider them natives. Only screw the rich people from out of town.


Wow, you're such a peach.


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## davidvel (Dec 15, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> Wow, you're such a peach.


Sorry about the sarcasm.


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## magmue (Dec 17, 2022)

This article from Town & Country on "high value low impact" travel reminded me of this discussion. A snippet: 

"_The tiny Himalayan Buddhist kingdom of Bhutan ....  in September committed what may seem like touristic suicide: It raised its already hefty visitor tax to $200 per person per day, the highest in the world. Called the “sustainable development charge,” the tax is earmarked by the government to fund projects designed to protect Bhutan’s culture and environment: community education, conservation, organic farming, carbon-neutral infrastructure_."


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