# [ 2012 ] Walking away from Raintree..what could happen?



## iani2012

We bought a Raintree Vacation Club week in Mexico and the maintenance fees have gone up considerably each year.

What would happen if we walk away and NOT pay the maintenance fee?  

If the original agreement was signed in Mexico, how could a USA corporation have any legal standing?


----------



## Passepartout

What *could* happen is they can- and likely will- turn you over to collection, who will dog you with phone calls, and ultimately you'll take a hit on your credit score.

Why not at least first list it in the Bargain Deals here on TUG, make it attractive by booking the new owner a holiday week and/or offer to pay whatever transfer costs are involved in giving it away.

Not ideal, but today, Mexican TSs have little to no resale value, and since they aren't deeded for the most part, there's no physical property to transfer.

Best wishes.

Jim


----------



## iani2012

Thanks for the reply.  Yes going to list it on Bargain Deals and see what will happen there first.  Where is the best place to get a resale contract to use if you sell for $1 ?

I just wonder how a contract signed in Mexico could translate into a hit on credit score.  The fact that the maintence fees have gone up so much and we never agreed to that increase to begin with.


----------



## 55plus

iani2012 said:


> Thanks for the reply.  Yes going to list it on Bargain Deals and see what will happen there first.  Where is the best place to get a resale contract to use if you sell for $1 ?
> 
> I just wonder how a contract signed in Mexico could translate into a hit on credit score.  The fact that the maintence fees have gone up so much and we never agreed to that increase to begin with.



List it on eBay for $1. It may cost you $35 to do so.

Does the contract you signed say anything about maintenance fees. If not you may have a point...


----------



## csxjohn

Talk to a loan officer where you do your banking.  Explain the situation and ask them how much it might affect your credit.  There has been a lot of speculation here about this subject and one former loan officer said he gave this situation very little consideration if, any as long as everything else was in order.

I never signed any agreement with any timeshare resort or hoa or bod on the 4 timeshares I have owned.  I have recently wondered what leg they have to stand on to try to force me to pay MFs if I decide I don't want to use a resort any longer.


----------



## DeniseM

If it's paid off, you may be able to give it away - please consider this before your default:

Why?
-You can give it away yourself for nearly no cost.
-You can control the transfer process to make sure it is truly transferred out of your name.
-You won't have to deal with companies that may or may not be Legit.
-You can transfer it to a private individual who will be happy to have it for their own use.
-You will have the satisfaction of knowing that you ended your ownership legally and ethically.

There are TWO places on TUG where you can give away your TS's for free (no charge for the Ads.)  THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT - SO YOU SHOULD POST IN BOTH AREAS.  There are other cheap and free sites on the internet, as well.

TUG Marketplace - the only cost is your TUG membership - $15 (List it for $1 and it will automatically go in the Bargain Basement Ads.)

Bargain Deals  - Totally FREE! - just write a simple post with all the pertinent info.  In your post, include the following info.:
-resort name
-unit size
-season owned
-maintenance fee
-current reservations​
To make it more attractive I would:

1) Pay the 2013 maintenance fees and don't ask for reimbursement.

2) Pay for the title transfer (you can get a simple title transfer with no escrow or title search for about $100.) Many Tuggers (including me) have been using Legal Timeshare Transfers, a no frills document preparation company, and they are receiving good reviews on TUG.:

Legal Timeshare Transfers/Ready Legal
Lisa Short and Mary Pless
http://legaltimesharetransfers.com/
1.706.219.2709

3) Reserve a popular holiday week in 2012/13 for the new owner 

4) Instead of paying a fee to a rescue company - consider offering a cash incentive to the new owner.

*5) Here is the very important step that most people  miss: Come back to TUG once a week and add more info. to your thread - this will bump it to the top of the page.*​ 

Good luck!


----------



## Rent_Share

iani2012 said:


> If the original agreement was signed in Mexico, how could a USA Mexican corporation have any legal standing? in a US Court


 

Can one of the arm chair, jail house, or real attorneys, answer this question

Raintree is based in Houston, 



> Raintree Vacation Club, the largest American timeshare company with resorts in Mexico, is based in Houston, Texas


 
but if the Timeshare was truly from a Mexican Corporation what could they possibly due from a practical position.


----------



## iani2012

Thanks to all that have responded.  Would be interested to know what the connection is between Raintree Vacation Club in Texas and Club Regina (Mexico) there the "agreement" was signed.

Are there and legal precidents that have been set for past cases of people not paying MF and what legal right the timeshare has to do anything about it?  (as far as collection/credit)

Also there is mention of "Title" transfer on this thread.  How does one find out if there is a "Title" for a Right to Use week in Raintree Vacation Club.  

Raintree has "transfer forms" and charges $499 transfer fee.  Wouldn't those forms be sufficient to give away the time share for $1 or would another agreement really be needed?


----------



## DeniseM

iani2012 said:


> Are there and legal precidents that have been set for past cases of people not paying MF and what legal right the timeshare has to do anything about it?  (as far as collection/credit)



Here on TUG, we hear from people every day who have been sent to collections because they defaulted on their timeshare - you signed a contract and they will do whatever they can to get their money.  

In this economy, MANY people are trying to get out of their timeshares - if they were just allowed to walk away, it would be a disaster for the timeshares.  When you default on your timeshare, the rest of the owners have to cover the maintenance fee - not the developer, so the HOA has to go after you to protect the owners who don't default.



iani2012 said:


> Raintree has "transfer forms" and charges $499 transfer fee.  Wouldn't those forms be sufficient to give away the time share for $1 or would another agreement really be needed?



I would call a knowledgeable closing company and ask them - I use this company:

Legal Timeshare Transfers
Lisa Short and Mary Pless
http://legaltimesharetransfers.com/
readylegal@gmail.com
706.219.2709


----------



## Rent_Share

iani2012 said:


> Thanks to all that have responded. Would be interested to know what the connection is between Raintree Vacation Club in Texas and Club Regina (Mexico) there the "agreement" was signed.


 
They are called venue clauses, the parties agree what county/state has jurisdiction and where any disputes will be litigated.


----------



## iani2012

Hi Denise,

Thanks sharing this information.  It is really more of a legal question if a timeshare bought in Mexico and signed under Mexican jurisdiction (even if connected to a USA corporation) has and legal standing for collection in the USA.

We never agreed to a maintenance increase from $335 in 2000 to $916 for 2013 for having the right to use one week a year.  Plus they charged a special accessment fee of $900 a few years ago.  Seems they do what ever they want, and I am interested to know what is the "REAL" situation here.  

Would be interested to hear from any attorneys that are members of TUG.  Thank you.


----------



## DeniseM

You do not have to agree to changes in fees - when you purchased and signed the contracts, you agreed to abide by the decisions made by the management company and HOA - this is standard in the timeshare industry.  

Even in the US there are sometimes large special assessments and large increases in maintenance fees, and when owners sue the HOA or management, they almost never win, because the original Docs you signed when you purchased are written to favor the resort. 

Since Raintree has US affiliates, and sells to many Americans, I am sure that they are prepared to go after you in US courts.


----------



## iani2012

Are there any cases of Raintree going after anyone for not paying MF?  If so, what is the outcome?  They just lost a class action suit against them because of the "special accessment fees"

http://www.girardgibbs.com/case/41/raintree-settlement/

Do you have any proof that other members would be responsible for a default on maintenance fees?  If find that hard to believe.

I don't see how HOA has anything to do with this.

The agreement signed in Mexico clearly states it is under jurisdiction of Federal District, Mexico City, MX


----------



## DeniseM

iani2012 said:


> Do you have any proof that other members would be responsible for a default on maintenance fees?  If find that hard to believe.
> 
> I don't see how HOA has anything to do with this.



Ian - This is standard in the industry.

After timeshare resorts are sold out - they belong to the owners, as represented by the HOA - not the developer.  So when the budget goes up due to defaults, owners have to make up the deficit with higher maintenance fees.  The developer may stay on as the management company (or they may not - occasionally the HOA kicks them out) but the developer does not OWN the resort and they are not responsible for the debts of the resort - the owners are.

In fact, when owners get their maintenance fee bills - "maintenance fees in default" is listed on the budget, and the remaining owners have them added to their maintenance fee.


----------



## stevelb

Seems to me that if you fail to pay they would have to use the Mexican system to obtain a judgment against you. They would have to come to your home state to attempt to register this judgement. Will your state allow this? I don't know the answer to this. Would your state allow you a hearing to contest the claim?  In any event this may be a costly process for the timeshare. I suggest you contact a local attorney regarding the law in your state regarding foreign judgments.


----------



## DeniseM

Since Raintree is ALSO in the US, I am sure they are prepared to foreclose on US Citizens.


----------



## stevelb

DeniseM said:


> Since Raintree is ALSO in the US, I am sure they are prepared to foreclose on US Citizens.



Do you have facts to back up statement that you are "sure" Raintree is prepared to foreclose on US citizens?  Still takes time and legal costs. OP needs to contact a local lawyer to determine his options.


----------



## DeniseM

stevelb said:


> Do you have facts to back up statement that you are "sure" Raintree is prepared to foreclose on US citizens?  Still takes time and legal costs. OP needs to contact a local lawyer to determine his options.



I don't have any more facts than you do. 

I am making an observation based on years of experience.

The Mexican resorts have MANY foreign owners - in this economy, they would be in a world of hurt, if they couldn't foreclose on foreign owners.


----------



## iani2012

Certianly all interesting points.  If they file for forclosure, our names would be removed from the right to use property correct?

I wonder if any TUG members have been through this forclosure process for a right to use (non-deeded) property.

Seems to me, if enough people walk away from what they don't want or need, then Raintree or other such entities would not be able to deal with it.


----------



## DeniseM

iani2012 said:


> Certianly all interesting points.  If they file for forclosure, our names would be removed from the right to use property correct?
> 
> I wonder if any TUG members have been through this forclosure process for a right to use (non-deeded) property.
> 
> Seems to me, if enough people walk away from what they don't want or need, then Raintree or other such entities would not be able to deal with it.



Ian - I still don't think you get it:  when you walk away, you are not dumping on Raintree - they are just the management company - when you walk away, you are dumping on the remaining owners at the resort.

You are unlikely to find Tug members who are willing to risk their credit this way, but we get visitors in your situation on a regular basis.

TUG is a website for people who enjoy timesharing - we definitely gripe about things, but in general, we are not out to sink the timeshare industry - because we OWN the resorts.  If resorts fail, WE lose our ownership.


----------



## Passepartout

Ian, if you have confidence that you have a defensible position Re: defaulting your obligation, go for it. Write up a "How To" when you are released from the debt. Hundreds of thousands of timeshare owners would pay handsomely for the step-by-step instructions. As it is, people gladly pay thou$and$ to 3rd parties to be released. If you can do it by simply defaulting you can show them how they are wasting their money. Sounds like a great business model to me.

Hope it works out for you. Really.

Jim


----------



## timeos2

iani2012 said:


> Certianly all interesting points.  If they file for forclosure, our names would be removed from the right to use property correct?
> 
> I wonder if any TUG members have been through this forclosure process for a right to use (non-deeded) property.
> 
> Seems to me, if enough people walk away from what they don't want or need, then Raintree or other such entities would not be able to deal with it.



Foreclosure IS the "out" and the reason why no one is ever really stuck with any timeshare. It is a bit painful to go through the process (hey, you signed an agreement) but those are the rules you agreed to. Add in that many resorts will not be as aggressive as they could be as it does cost them. Often a nonpayment/foreclosure (or deed in lieu as is often offered during the process) is the best road out of an unwanted timeshare.


----------



## iani2012

Is forclosure actually possible on a non-deeded "Right to Use" time share?


----------



## iani2012

I want to thank everyone for contributing to this discussion.  As a new member of TUG, I must say its a great forum and appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge.


----------



## DeniseM

iani2012 said:


> Is forclosure actually possible on a non-deeded "Right to Use" time share?



Ian - I don't think you like the answers you are getting here, but think logically about this.  If foreclosure wasn't possible, how would the resorts protect themselves if a large percentage of the owners just walked away?  Would they just say, Oh, well, and go bankrupt?

Since you want a legal opinion, I suggest that you make an appointment with an attorney, and take all your purchase documents in for him to review.  Although, finding one with expertise in this area may be difficult. 

Or - call the resort or Raintree in the US, and tell them you are going to default and see what they say...  That answer would be free.

-Other options:  give your timeshare away
-Learn how to use it (trade it) for timeshares that you DO want to go to


----------



## timeos2

Sure although it may not be called foreclosure.


----------



## bogey21

I don't dispute the perspective that if you don't pay MFs, your credit will be hit and that you may be foreclosed on.  What I haven't seen is a response form someone saying that either of the above actually happened to them.  If you have first hand experience, I think we will all be appreciative if you will post here and tell us what actually happened to you.

George


----------



## csxjohn

iani2012 said:


> Certianly all interesting points.  If they file for forclosure, our names would be removed from the right to use property correct?
> 
> I wonder if any TUG members have been through this forclosure process for a right to use (non-deeded) property.
> 
> Seems to me, if enough people walk away from what they don't want or need, then Raintree or other such entities would not be able to deal with it.



I like the way you're thinking here.

You agreed to pay a certain amount and in return get the right to use the property.

Your MFs have increased threefold in a few years and you no longer see value.  You stop paying and no longer have the right to use the resort.

Please keep us informed of how you handle this and what the outcome is.


----------



## iani2012

I would like to see some proof that unpaid maintenance fees are then somehow put on the responsibility of other owners to pay.  IF a resort can re-sell a timeshare week that was defaulted on for another 10 K, sure seems like the resort benefits.


----------



## DeniseM

iani2012 said:


> I would like to see some proof that unpaid maintenance fees are then somehow put on the responsibility of other owners to pay.  IF a resort can re-sell a timeshare week that was defaulted on for another 10 K, sure seems like the resort benefits.



Ian - I'm looking at a MF bill for one of my resorts that has owners in default- 

In the annual budget, under expenses, there is a line item for *"Uncollectible Accounts"* and it is *$380,115* (for the entire year) - they are charging me *$66.55* for that line item - it's spelled out on my bill.

This is standard in the timeshare industry - it's a fact.

I have had larger charges than that, a few years ago when the defaults really kicked in.  

I found it:  In 2009, at the Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas, each 2 bdm. owner paid $236.23 (on top of the regular maintenance fee) for uncollectible Accts.


----------



## timeos2

iani2012 said:


> I would like to see some proof that unpaid maintenance fees are then somehow put on the responsibility of other owners to pay.  IF a resort can re-sell a timeshare week that was defaulted on for another 10 K, sure seems like the resort benefits.



The proof is somewhere in your annual budget. Delinquent fees, bad debt whatever they may call it. The weeks taken go back to the Association/Owners who aren't usually set up to do sales - that's developers. So what you say you would like to see is in there if you look carefully.


----------



## iani2012

DeniseM said:


> Ian - I'm looking at a MF bill for one of my resorts that has owners in default-
> 
> In the annual budget, under expenses, there is a line item for *"Uncollectible Accounts"* and it is *$380,115* (for the entire year) - they are charging me *$66.55* for that line item - it's spelled out on my bill.
> 
> This is standard in the timeshare industry - it's a fact.
> 
> I have had larger charges than that, a few years ago when the defaults really kicked in.
> 
> I found it:  In 2009, at the Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas, each 2 bdm. owner paid $236.23 (on top of the regular maintenance fee) for uncollectible Accts.


Denise,

Is that for a deeded or RTU property?


----------



## pacodemountainside

iani2012 said:


> I would like to see some proof that unpaid maintenance fees are then somehow put on the responsibility of other owners to pay.  IF a resort can re-sell a timeshare week that was defaulted on for another 10 K, sure seems like the resort benefits.



Simply  look at the governing documents, generally referred to as DECs! It is crystal  clear owners have to pay  MF  determined by BOD.  The BOD has to set fees so as to cover all expenses.  So, assessment has to be bumped up (income reduced  by reasonable estimate)  for bad debts.

Assuming deed is free and clear why would anyone in their right mind  give to resort to sell for $10K?  The resort does not have any naive buyers and in fact  probably  no one  really equipped to   resell TSs  and probably happy to get  rid of without losing any money!

If there is  mortgage on it then goes back to  Developer who  if he legally forecloses has to pay MF!


----------



## iani2012

timeos2 said:


> The proof is somewhere in your annual budget. Delinquent fees, bad debt whatever they may call it. The weeks taken go back to the Association/Owners who aren't usually set up to do sales - that's developers. So what you say you would like to see is in there if you look carefully.


John,

Raintree does not share this annual budget.  Is that something that is posted online or perhaps this is for deeded timeshare only?


----------



## DeniseM

iani2012 said:


> Denise,
> 
> Is that for a deeded or RTU property?



Deeded - nothing would induce me to buy a RTU in Mexico.


----------



## DeniseM

iani2012 said:


> John,
> 
> Raintree does not share this annual budget.  Is that something that is posted online or perhaps this is for deeded timeshare only?



Unfortunately, Mexican timeshares do not have the same accountability as timeshares in the US.  In the US, the budget usually comes with the MF bill.


----------



## iani2012

pacodemountainside said:


> Simply  look at the governing documents, generally referred to as DECs! It is crystal  clear owners have to pay  MF  determined by BOD.  The BOD has to set fees so as to cover all expenses.  So, assessment has to be bumped up (income reduced  by reasonable estimate)  for bad debts.
> 
> Assuming deed is free and clear why would anyone in their right mind  give to resort to sell for $10K?  The resort does not have any naive buyers and in fact  probably  no one  really equipped to   resell TSs  and probably happy to get  rid of without losing any money!
> 
> If there is  mortgage on it then goes back to  Developer who  if he legally forecloses has to pay MF!


Paco,

We never received governing documents.  Would be interested to see these for Raintree Vaction Club (Club Regina) if anyone has received them.


----------



## iani2012

DeniseM said:


> Deeded - nothing would induce me to buy a RTU in Mexico.


Denise,

So the question still remains if your statements are valid for RTU timeshares.


----------



## DeniseM

iani2012 said:


> Paco,
> 
> We never received governing documents.  Would be interested to see these for Raintree Vaction Club (Club Regina) if anyone has received them.



Do you still have all your sales documents?


----------



## DeniseM

iani2012 said:


> Denise,
> 
> So the question still remains if your statements are valid for RTU timeshares.



Ian - You have gotten very accurate info. from a number of Tuggers with years of experience with timesharing.  You don't want to believe the hard cold truth, because it's not what you want to hear.  I give up...

Good luck to you - please let us know what happens when you default - it will be very helpful to others in your situation.


----------



## Passepartout

I just looked through my TS financial statements and for one I own, a membership club, not unlike Raintree, not deeded, they showed $143,438 as "Bad Debt." This was specifically listed as uncollectible dues. The statement didn't list the number of intervals (weeks) they controlled, so I wasn't able to compute how much my share of the debt was, but it's not much of a stretch for it to be a couple hundred bucks each.

If we choose to default, they happily add on 18% interest and if you don't pay your MF by 1/1 of each year, there is a $25 fee to reinstate. 

In short, I know you don't want to hear it, but the best path for you is either to give the membership away, or pay the MF and use it.

Jim


----------



## iani2012

DeniseM said:


> Do you still have all your sales documents?


Sales documents do not have a line item budget regarding bad debt.


----------



## iani2012

DeniseM said:


> Ian - You have gotten very accurate info. from a number of Tuggers with years of experience with timesharing.  You don't want to believe the hard cold truth, because it's not what you want to hear.  I give up...
> 
> Good luck to you - please let us know what happens when you default - it will be very helpful to others in your situation.


Denise,

Nothing personal here, mainly looking to get to the truth of the matter regarding RTU for Raintree Vacation Club.  Most statements seem to be regarding deeded in USA.

Selling it is ideal, but there are closing fees, and there seems to MANY listed for $1 or less.  Clearly many other people do not want them.

I am also interested to find out IF walking away on high maintenance fees is a solution for the benefit of many others that seem to be in similar situation. 

So far I don't see that HOA would be connected to a RTU system in Mexico.


----------



## timeos2

iani2012 said:


> John,
> 
> Raintree does not share this annual budget.  Is that something that is posted online or perhaps this is for deeded timeshare only?



It applies to all condos/timeshares deeded or RTU. In the US resorts have to provide an annual budget. Mexican laws may or may not require it.


----------



## timeos2

iani2012 said:


> Denise,
> 
> Nothing personal here, mainly looking to get to the truth of the matter regarding RTU for Raintree Vacation Club.  Most statements seem to be regarding deeded in USA.
> 
> Selling it is ideal, but there are closing fees, and there seems to MANY listed for $1 or less.  Clearly many other people do not want them.
> 
> I am also interested to find out IF walking away on high maintenance fees is a solution for the benefit of many others that seem to be in similar situation.
> 
> So far I don't see that HOA would be connected to a RTU system in Mexico.



Because of the Corporate ties they would know how to leverage US collections. But realize delinquent timeshare dues is not much of a credit hit if any. Other than threatening letters & calls all they can do is report the non payment & eventually take ownership - that's what you now want. If you go through the possible small credit ding then you'd be out. Good luck.


----------



## pacodemountainside

bogey21 said:


> I don't dispute the perspective that if you don't pay MFs, your credit will be hit and that you may be foreclosed on.  What I haven't seen is a response form someone saying that either of the above actually happened to them.  If you have first hand experience, I think we will all be appreciative if you will post here and tell us what actually happened to you.
> 
> George



You make a good point. There are daily posts seeking advice, yet many do not come back and share their experiences and expand all of our knowledge.

To your point "may be  foreclosed on" why wouldn't the resort foreclose or better yet take  deed back  ASAP  when  one  cannot  pay due to bankruptcy,  job loss, illness,  divorce, car repossessed   and can't get down to pick up unemployment check  or job interview,, etc. I know this has been discussed at length, but if getting any money from unfortunate   judgment proof  person,   take a deed back, get rented  and put out for sale. Post  on resort bulletin board,  include with mailings to owners,  offer free to employees,   give to local fund raiser to raffle off, etc. Think out of the box!


----------



## pacodemountainside

OP:

I get the impression you are looking for expert legal advice which is beyond scope of TUGGERs.

If you want to pursue, then  take all documents to local attorney and he will probably have to check with Mexico attorney. Legal fees will probably exceed paying MFs. 

As I understand RTUs,  they are simply  long term leases with one paying  all rent up front which is outrageous  considering time value of money. Some have renewal options.

I an speculating here but  when in business world leases  all had escalation clauses which provided landlord could pass all  negotiated  costs on to lessee.  So, there  are no owners , hence HOA. Just landlord who  adds  up all the operating costs plus his new limo and passes on to  renters who signed  essentially a blank  check when buying.

One only  need to read  post on Veteran trying to bring  antique  gun into Mexico and still in jail or getting stopped for  traffic violation  and giving officer drivers license only to discover it will cost  say  $50.00 to get back.

I enjoy visiting Mexico regularly, but recognize  they do things differently South of the Border!

I do agree with other posters   not paying MF  will be a small ding on  credit score, so before doing  apply  for any needed credit cards, car loans or mortgages. In a couple years if ALL other obligations  are paid timely will  probably  vaporize!


----------



## jejones3329

I do not have personal knowledge but was told by a gentleman I had a discussion with that not paying MF fees , even in USA does not hit a credit report. He claimed that he had bought a large number of timeshares about 10 years ago to resale and/or rent. He said when economy changed and he could not pay he spoke with an attorney and then made decision to not pay the MF.  He claimed to continue to have a high FICO. His explanation is that MF is a fee and not a debt. They can take away the privilages that the MF pay for but that it is not a loan that you are defaulting on. I am not stating that I know this is factual , ethical or anything else just passing on what I was told. Would be nice if someone has personal knowledge of it either impacting or not impacting them that they would post.


----------



## RX8

jejones3329 said:


> I do not have personal knowledge but was told by a gentleman I had a discussion with that not paying MF fees , even in USA does not hit a credit report.



The monthly maintenance fees are not a loan and therefore they would not be listed on someone's credit bureau.  However, if the maintenance fees go unpaid the HOA may put the unpaid bill on the credit bureau or they may assign the delinquency to a credit collection agency and THEY could put a negative trade line on a credit bureau (a collection account).  The agency may try to collect the debt prior to turning it over the credit bureau.  In fact, I would suspect that this is a strong collection tool that they use.

That said, I have seen previous posters who claim that they have never given their social security numbers to the HOA.   I do not believe that Experian, Trans Union or Equifax would allow anything to be posted to a credit bureau without verification of a social security number.  If they don't have that you might be in the clear.  And if they don't have the social security number I would not be surprised if the collection agency tries questionable tactics to obtain it from you (maybe as simple as asking you to tell them your social security to "verify" your outstanding bill).


----------



## rrsafety

DeniseM said:


> Ian - I still don't think you get it:  when you walk away, you are not dumping on Raintree - they are just the management company - when you walk away, you are dumping on the remaining owners at the resort.
> 
> You are unlikely to find Tug members who are willing to risk their credit this way, but we get visitors in your situation on a regular basis.
> 
> TUG is a website for people who enjoy timesharing - we definitely gripe about things, but in general, we are not out to sink the timeshare industry - because we OWN the resorts.  If resorts fail, WE lose our ownership.



Could one argue that any owners association that has a $499 transfer fee deserves to be left holding the bag for unpaid MFs? One might think that allowing easy transfer between those unwilling/unable to pay MFs to those who are willing/able to pay MFs would make more sense.


----------



## csxjohn

rrsafety said:


> Could one argue that any owners association that has a $499 transfer fee deserves to be left holding the bag for unpaid MFs? One might think that allowing easy transfer between those unwilling/unable to pay MFs to those who are willing/able to pay MFs would make more sense.



You bring up a very good point.  The management company starts charging outrageous fees that make it harder and harder for people to pass their TS on to someone else then the HOA and all the owners pay the price for this practice in increased noncollectable accounts.

A problem exists and this solution of raising the transfer fees just makes it worse.  

I just had to pay a $75 transfer fee for a VRI resort in Fla. but I know there are costs involved, maybe not $75, but I can live with that.  The $300 that Wyndham charges and the amount you mention are totally outrageous.

Carolinian has brought this up many times that these management companies are probably not permitted to charge this because it's not in the TS's documents but they continue to charge it.

The management company is not left holding the bag, it's the owners of the other units at that resort that are getting stung.


----------



## csxjohn

DeniseM said:


> Here on TUG, we hear from people every day who have been sent to collections because they defaulted on their timeshare - you signed a contract and they will do whatever they can to get their money.
> 
> ...



Two points I'd like to make.

"we hear from people every day who have been sent to collections because they defaulted on their timeshare"

This may be but has anyone had this put on their credit report?  There's a big difference.

"you signed a contract and they will do whatever they can to get their money."

For the record I know that I have never signed any contract and do not have any agreement with the time share resorts I have owned.  Would a collection agency take this on without proof that I really owe the money?  If I decide to quit paying my fees, I will not be allowed to use the unit.  If I can't use the unit I don't owe anybody anything for it.

I have had deeds but I never signed them either.  They were signed by the previous owners giving me title to the property.

I would suspect that many people have bought TSs resale and don't have agreements with the resorts or their management companies.  Does anyone know how this is handled?


----------



## Corman

Raintree will not list a itemized list of expenses. They use the excuse that they are a private company and are not obligated to. We the owners have a right to use membership.If they ran it more like a membership, perhaps people wouldn't be so hostile towards them.
I am sure the original poster can give away his/her timeshare with the enticements . People are always looking for a great deal.


----------



## rrsafety

Corman said:


> Raintree will not list a itemized list of expenses. They use the excuse that they are a private company and are not obligated to. We the owners have a right to use membership.If they ran it more like a membership, perhaps people wouldn't be so hostile towards them.
> I am sure the original poster can give away his/her timeshare with the enticements . People are always looking for a great deal.



Does this Raintree property have an owners assoc? Is it real or just a developers front?


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

csxjohn said:


> I would suspect that many people have bought TSs resale and don't have agreements with the resorts or their management companies.  Does anyone know how this is handled?


I think you full well know the answer.  But for those who might not ....

with a deeded property, the timeshare program documents are integrated into the deed at the time the deed is sold, and continue to govern usage and owner obligations whenever the deed is transferred.  The fact that you haven't entered into any with the resort is immaterial.  When you acquired the deed you also acquired the associated ownership obligations.

with a RTU it's similar.  You acquire a membership, and the membership rules come along with the membership.  Again, you don't have to sign anything with the management company. Your acceptance of the membership is also your acceptance of the associated obligations to the operators of the club.


----------



## Corman

rrsafety said:


> Does this Raintree property have an owners assoc? Is it real or just a developers front?



Raintree doesn't want a owners association. They set the budget, spend and pretend to care what it members(suckers) have to say.


----------



## iani2012

Great dialogue going on here and many different opinions. Would anyone care to comment on the fact that this RTU membership was purchased in Mexico, agreement signed under the jurisdiction of Mexico.  Raintree Vacation Club in Texas seems to own or manage Club Regina, but if the orginal agreement is not with them, then how could they even go after anyone that does not pay MF.

Is there any US organization that regulates transfers fees and maintenance fees on RTU membership?  Seems like an increase from $300 to $900 in 12 years for a studio week is a lot and increase from $200 to $499 on Transfer Fees from 2010 to present.

Why would Raintree not just take back weeks that members want to give back and then re-sell them instead of dealing with collection, then cancelling the membership after a two year period.

There is no mention of a "Transfer Fee" in the original agreement, I wonder is there a way to transfer a RTU to another Tugger without going through this Transfer Fee?


----------



## Corman

raintree will not take back your mexico week. People aren't buying timeshares,there is no way they will take it back unless you have a valuable week, like christmas, presidents week, ect.As far as I can tell you own points,not a fixed week.


----------



## csxjohn

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I think you full well know the answer.  But for those who might not ....
> 
> with a deeded property, the timeshare program documents are integrated into the deed at the time the deed is sold, and continue to govern usage and owner obligations whenever the deed is transferred.  The fact that you haven't entered into any with the resort is immaterial.  When you acquired the deed you also acquired the associated ownership obligations.
> 
> ...



Thanks for explaining this, I kind of knew it was something like this but wasn't sure.



iani2012 said:


> ...Why would Raintree not just take back weeks that members want to give back and then re-sell them instead of dealing with collection, then cancelling the membership after a two year period...



They don't need to take it back because they can just sell and sell more and more memberships at full price and still attempt to make current owners keep paying and paying.

Any laws that may govern timeshares in Mexico seem to be a lot different than how things are done here.


----------



## MALC9990

iani2012 said:


> Great dialogue going on here and many different opinions. Would anyone care to comment on the fact that this RTU membership was purchased in Mexico, agreement signed under the jurisdiction of Mexico.  Raintree Vacation Club in Texas seems to own or manage Club Regina, but if the orginal agreement is not with them, then how could they even go after anyone that does not pay MF.
> 
> Is there any US organization that regulates transfers fees and maintenance fees on RTU membership?  Seems like an increase from $300 to $900 in 12 years for a studio week is a lot and increase from $200 to $499 on Transfer Fees from 2010 to present.
> 
> Why would Raintree not just take back weeks that members want to give back and then re-sell them instead of dealing with collection, then cancelling the membership after a two year period.
> 
> There is no mention of a "Transfer Fee" in the original agreement, I wonder is there a way to transfer a RTU to another Tugger without going through this Transfer Fee?



I cannot comment directly since I do not have a Raintree RTU week BUT I do have Marriott RTU weeks and the process that Marriott adopt on the non payment of MFs at their RTU resorts in Europe and Thailand is quite clear.

First note that there are NO owners as such - other than a Marriott company in country - so my Spanish resorts are owned by a Marriott associate company in Spain - same for my Phuket resort - a Marriott associate company in Thailand.

So what happens when a member does not pay their MFs for their RTU week(s). 

First Marriott sends a reminder and imposes a late payment fee. Since Marriott allow members to reserve weeks up to 13 months in advance - if when you fail to pay by the deadline then any reservations you have are canceled, as are any deposits with II and thus any exchanges based on those deposits.

If you do not pay at all in that year then when the next year's MF is due you will be expected to pay the outstanding and the next year also. Since you will have been in default all year no reservations could be made for this next year either. If you again fail to pay the MFs and the outstanding and the late payment fees by the next year deadline then more reminders will follow and more Late Payment Fees will be added to the amount due.

Once Marriott decide that you are not going to pay up what is due for the two years MFs and the late payment fees, your week(s) get revoked and you lose all rights to use them in the future.

Revoked weeks are returned to the "UNSOLD" inventory and Marriott will be able to sell them again. You lose all your "_investment_" - I know its not really an investment but you the ex-owner of the RTU weeks will perhaps have paid many thousands of euros for that week or those weeks.

Once revoked, the outstanding MFs are paid by Marriott to the resort (less some deductions). Marriott continues to sell weeks at these resorts even where they are "sold out" - the weeks come from revoked inventory. Each year the Advisory Boards for my resorts meet with Marriott representatives and the minutes always list the number of weeks revoked in the last 12 months.

So what would this mean for owners at these resorts if they fail to pay the MFs for 2 years - it seems to me that they get quite a lot of hassle from Marriott over the non payment - reminder emails and late fee charges added but after 2 years they walk away but without their RTU weeks.

Of course if they borrowed money to buy their weeks and they still have a debt on the weeks - then that is a whole different kettle of fish. Marriott will have passed to loan onto a finance house and if you fail to make the monthly payments then you are in for some bad credit scores and court action. The end result can be that a Bailiff will turn up with a court order to take payment plus costs from you and that payment may be taken by taking goods from your home or even your car - providing it is not also financed with a loan. These loans are typically made through a loan company in the members own country - in my case that would be a UK finance company - not that I borrowed money to buy any of my weeks. So chasing the loan defaulters is quite easy since the loan will be in your own country of residence.


----------



## rrsafety

MALC9990 said:


> I cannot comment directly since I do not have a Raintree RTU week BUT I do have Marriott RTU weeks and the process that Marriott adopt on the non payment of MFs at their RTU resorts in Europe and Thailand is quite clear. ...



A perfect example of why low transfer fees make sense or a low 'resort buy-back fee' makes sense (say, one year MFs).

Doesn't help anyone for MFs not to be paid for two years....


----------



## Rafael

I am presently working through this and will continually report on how Puerto Bahia handles my specific case. 

I also have had trouble finding someone on here that has first hand experience with this, or reliable legal advise.


----------



## Rafael

You can go look at my progress on here (I think this works)

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202536


----------

