# Lowering Bar Syndrome - are timeshares too cheap?



## ampaholic (May 16, 2012)

I think a phenomenon seen in recent years in timeshares is what I'll call “Lowering Bar Syndrome” or LBS.

This I believe is caused by new owners coming into the game by purchasing very cheap timeshares on eBay and other places.

I believe the flood of cheap (even free) timeshares available invites people of lower middle class income or even low income to buy several timeshares and enjoy a lifestyle originally available only to upper middle class and wealthy persons.

When a “prepaid vacation” costs tens of thousands of dollars it is a very different critter than a “used” timeshare” that can be had for under $100 and would normally be marketed to very different people.

Some symptoms of LBS that I see:

1.The LBS owners buy so low that they naturally think all timeshares are essentially worthless in money terms.
2.If the LBS owners are also of lower middle class income or even low income they tend to really fixate on the “cost” of yearly maintenance fees and special assessments.
3.If the LBS owners are also of lower middle class income or even low income they tend to really fixate on the permanence of ownership and the inability to “get rid” of it (since of course it's worthless).
4.While there is nothing wrong with “frugal” - LBS owners might tend to over do it

Personally I am OK with this shift of timeshare ownership out of the upper classes and into my class (middle middle) and I am glad to be able to own several timeshares – I wonder if we here should really  advise low income people to tread carefully – or should we dog pile on and make “a timeshare in every pot” our unofficial motto.


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## AwayWeGo (May 16, 2012)

*Bar, Shmarr.*




ampaholic said:


> When a “prepaid vacation” costs tens of thousands of dollars it is a very different critter than a “used” timeshare” that can be had for under $100 and would normally be marketed to very different people.


I don't know for sure (& I don't do research), but I have to assume that timeshares were never an upper-brackets or upper-crust phenomenon. 

Rather, the appeal is to humbler middle-brow folks who can simulate something more or less akin to a "rich folks" experience by owning for 1 week out of the year their very own nice resort condo (i.e., timeshare).   

I would expect the true upper brackets people to own their own year-round vacation condos & lakefront vacation homes, etc., not the pale shadow of those things we timeshare types own only 7 days at a time. 

However that may be, whatever else timeshare ownership represents, for sure it is _not_ prepaid vacation.  That's just smoke that the timeshare sellers blow to try to get people to pay big bux for full-freight timeshares.  Mere ownership -- even free & clear ownership with no loan & no lien -- won't get you past the check-in desk.  No matter how much or how little the owner pays, down to & including _el freebo_ -- you can't check in when you show up unless you have paid the maintenance fees.  That money, not the price of the deed, is the true cost of timeshare vacationing.  And it's not prepaid by any stretch just because you have the deed. 

Furthermore -- regardless of price, high or low or free -- there is no such thing as a new timeshare.  By the time the owner shows up & checks in, other people will already have been staying previously right there in the owner's very own unit.  Not only is that not new, it's _used-used-used_ any way you shake it.  If you don't like sleeping in beds other folks have slept in, walking on carpets where others have trod, bathing in tubs & showers & jacuzzis where others have cleansed themselves, etc., then you are not apt to care much for timeshare vacations.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## ampaholic (May 16, 2012)

Symptom 5. Highly opinionated.


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## ronparise (May 16, 2012)

I agree with your analysis except that as Alan said it isnt a move from upper class to middle. I think its more of a move from people that could afford it to those that cant...here what I think lowering the bar has done:

Its allowed people that cant even afford the maintenance fees to become owners. Every timeshare I own, I bought for next to nothing (average cost incl closing costs and transfer fees under $200) and current years fees were paid by the seller, and I got the use of the week that first year

So Im in for nothing and I got a free weeks vacation...What happens next year when I get my mf bill??

I think lowering the bar has simply kicked the resorts problem down the road a piece....As soon as owners like me see that first maintenance fee bill, I think they will default...or at least a lot of them will


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## slip (May 16, 2012)

I think the resale buyer has done a little more research than someone making a
Impulsive developer purchase. I know some will default but I think the large
Majority will be paying their maintenance fees.


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## Passepartout (May 16, 2012)

ronparise said:


> So Im in for nothing and I got a free weeks vacation...What happens next year when I get my mf bill??
> 
> I think lowering the bar has simply kicked the resorts problem down the road a piece....As soon as owners like me see that first maintenance fee bill, I think they will default...or at least a lot of them will



I agree with this. People who can't afford a vacation are essentially granted a free one because the previous owner pre-paid the MF. When it becomes their turn about holiday bill time, they will come flocking here wanting relief and advice on how to 'give back' this unwanted obligation. The Viking Ship vendors will have a field day. 

Jim


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## Mel (May 16, 2012)

I agree, the bar has been lowered somewhat.  Like Alan, I think the original purchasers were not "upper class" but upper middle class - those who couldn't quite afford a second home, or didn't want the hassle of a second home (because they couldn't afford to pay someone else to maintain or manage it when they were not using it).  

While the average income of people being targeted by developers has risen, I suspect the average income of resale purchasers has dropped significantly.  But this isn't just timeshares where we see this happening.  Lower income families have been sold on the idea that they are entitled to all the same luxuries as everyone else, and they are purchasing them however they can.  I just hope it doesn't end up reflected in the way my resorts are maintained, either through an HOA that pinches too many pennies, or occupants  who don't care about the facilities.


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## DaveNV (May 16, 2012)

I've purchased each of my timeshares on Ebay for virtually nothing.  For me, the true cost of ownership is the ongoing fees associated with it.  I plan for, and calculate, the maintenance fees, so when they come due I have the maoney set aside.  it makes ownership very manageable.  If I had had to pay a Developer price for a timeshare, I'd never have purchased one.

Dave


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## ampaholic (May 16, 2012)

BMWguynw said:


> I've purchased each of my timeshares on Ebay for virtually nothing.  For me, the true cost of ownership is the ongoing fees associated with it.  I plan for, and calculate, the maintenance fees, so when they come due I have the maoney set aside.  it makes ownership very manageable.  If I had had to pay a Developer price for a timeshare, I'd never have purchased one.
> 
> Dave



This is the same boat I'm in. I don't plan to fail when MF's come due because I've planned for them as my cost of many wonderful vacations in my "second home".

When I first heard of timeshare resorts (in the 70's) they were marketed to my pretty well off friends dad in some fancy magazine (I think it was Conde' Nast) I saw on the coffee table and it was marketed as the "smart alternative to a third or fourth home".

I personally have never considered a third or fourth home :hysterical:


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## slip (May 16, 2012)

I'm with Dave. The calculations never worked out that I could save money with
a developers purchase. As soon as I found resale and the information on TUG, I
could see the value.

I bought mine for practically nothing and I set aside my maintenance fees just
like Dave. I always factor in an increase so I'm not too surprised. I haven't
seen anybody on TUG saying they purchased off Ebay and now they can't
afford them any more. The default stories are from developer purchases and 
many of those still owe on the purchase.


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## AwayWeGo (May 16, 2012)

*I Resemble That Remark.*




ampaholic said:


> Symptom 5. Highly opinionated.


You are correct, sir. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Ridewithme38 (May 16, 2012)

I am officially a member of the LBS! Depending on the part of the US you are from, i am either upper middle class or dirt poor...When the bills come for MF's(currently $1382 a year) i have to think about what is the best way to pay them...Am i paying out everything from one check, or paying out bit of a few checks...

My parents were always upper middle class/Lower Upper Class, But to make the kind of money to stay in the top tax bracket my whole life, i don't remember more then a couple vacations in the first 18 years of my life...now i am making quite a bit less then them, but because of that, have the free time to vacation alot...Thanks to TS's i now can afford to do that too!


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## Larry6417 (May 16, 2012)

*Really?*



ampaholic said:


> When a “prepaid vacation” costs tens of thousands of dollars it is a very different critter than a “used” timeshare” that can be had for under $100 and would normally be marketed to very different people.



So "used" timeshares (i.e. from eBay) are marketed to less affluent, less...savvy consumers? I think the consumers that buy "used" rather than retail are different as well, but not in the way that you think. According to ARDA, new TS purchasers are younger and *wealthier* than "traditional" TS purchasers. Also, newer purchasers are less likely to buy and impulse and more likely to rent before buying. See http://www.rdo.org/news-items/321.aspx

I fit the "newer" TS purchaser profile. I can afford to buy "retail," but why would I? While you're bemoaning the influx of the great unwashed masses into your formerly pristine resorts, the newer owners are wondering why the stick-in-the-mud is looking down his nose at them.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 16, 2012)

Larry6417 said:


> So "used" timeshares (i.e. from eBay) are marketed to less affluent, less...savvy consumers? I think the consumers that buy "used" rather than retail are different as well, but not in the way that you think. According to ARDA, new TS purchasers are younger and *wealthier* than "traditional" TS purchasers. Also, newer purchasers are less likely to buy and impulse and more likely to rent before buying. See http://www.rdo.org/news-items/321.aspx
> 
> I fit the "newer" TS purchaser profile. I can afford to buy "retail," but why would I? While you're bemoaning the influx of the great unwashed masses into your formerly pristine resorts, the newer owners are wondering why the stick-in-the-mud is looking down his nose at them.



$94,933 I don't fit that!


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## ricoba (May 16, 2012)

First we didn't want fat people on the plane, now we don't want poor people next to us at our resort.   :ignore:


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## AwayWeGo (May 16, 2012)

*That's About The Size Of It.*




ricoba said:


> First we didn't want fat people on the plane, now we don't want poor people next to us at our resort.


In a rare fit of candor, some advocates of (a) ROFR & (b) treating exchange guests as 2nd class citz. admitted right here on TUG-BBS that something along those lines is the real reason they favor ROFR & exchange guest inequality.   

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Elan (May 16, 2012)

So, is the point that you're afraid there's a new class of TS owners who will default, or is the point that there's a new class of TS owner that will meet their MF obligations, but aren't up to the socio-economic standards of the old class of TS owner?


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## ricoba (May 16, 2012)

AwayWeGo said:


> In a rare fit of candor, some advocates of (a) ROFR & (b) treating exchange guests as 2nd class citz. admitted right here on TUG-BBS that something along those lines is the real reason they favor ROFR & exchange guest inequality.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​





Elan said:


> So, is the point that you're afraid there's a new class of TS owners who will default, or is the point that there's a new class of TS owner that will meet their MF obligations, but aren't up to the socio-economic standards of the old class of TS owner?



While I sorted of posted tongue in cheek, I did get the sense that there may be a desire by some (perhaps not the OP or others) that if we "lower the bar" we then we may have to put up with the "unwashed masses"!  

Oh the horror!!!


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## pjrose (May 16, 2012)

ronparise said:


> I agree with your analysis except that as Alan said it isnt a move from upper class to middle. I think its more of a move from people that could afford it to those that cant...here what I think lowering the bar has done:
> 
> Its allowed people that cant even afford the maintenance fees to become owners. . . .
> I think lowering the bar has simply kicked the resorts problem down the road a piece....As soon as owners like me see that first maintenance fee bill, I think they will default...or at least a lot of them will





Passepartout said:


> I agree with this. People who can't afford a vacation are essentially granted a free one because the previous owner pre-paid the MF. When it becomes their turn about holiday bill time, they will come flocking here wanting relief and advice on how to 'give back' this unwanted obligation. The Viking Ship vendors will have a field day.
> 
> Jim





ricoba said:


> While I sorted of posted tongue in cheek, I did get the sense that there may be a desire by some (perhaps not the OP or others) that if we "lower the bar" we then we may have to put up with the "unwashed masses"!
> 
> Oh the horror!!!



Isn't that what swimming pools are for?  :hysterical: 

Seriously, though, I think there have been some very good points raised in this thread.  The resale prices and the perceived value of timeshares have a reciprocal relationship - downward.  

People buying and then not being able to afford the upkeep can hurt the whole industry and all of us who are in it.  Too many unpaid MFs, not enough spent at the resort, etc. 

The true upper classes are not the timeshare types - as pointed out above, they'll own a few houses/estates, and will go somewhere exclusive and private for vacations.  

Middle class / professional people are the ones I've run into at timeshares of the Royal Resorts / Marriott / Wyndham type.


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## ampaholic (May 17, 2012)

ricoba said:


> First we didn't want fat people on the plane, now we don't want poor people next to us at our resort.   :ignore:



You should have seen the look on the upwardly mobile Executive's face in the hot tub at Wyndham Beach Walk when I explained to him how I traded for a week there for $378 all in - Priceless. 

Watch out the "poor" people at the resort might be you!


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## ampaholic (May 17, 2012)

pjrose said:


> -snip- The resale prices and the perceived value of timeshares have a reciprocal relationship - downward.
> 
> -snip-



Just the point I was thinking - I don't think I started this downward trend by buying on eBay - but perhaps I contributed to it???


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## pjrose (May 17, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> Just the point I was thinking - I don't think I started this downward trend by buying on eBay - but perhaps I contributed to it???



It is clearly YOUR FAULT that I couldn't rent my TSs this year b/c people perceive them as items that should be dirt-cheap, and that simultaneously my MFs have gone up b/c of all the people who really couldn't afford TSs and then defaulted on their MFs making it cost more for the rest of us.  

Grrrrr.


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## ampaholic (May 17, 2012)

pjrose said:


> It is clearly YOUR FAULT that I couldn't rent my TSs this year b/c people perceive them as items that should be dirt-cheap, and that simultaneously my MFs have gone up b/c of all the people who really couldn't afford TSs and then defaulted on their MFs making it cost more for the rest of us.
> 
> Grrrrr.



Yea, bummer - but you can always rent it to Ridewithme38 for $1 :hysterical:


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## geekette (May 17, 2012)

yep, I got a sock full of pennies to deliver to Ride in exchange for his expendable W'burg week.  Look out washed masses, here come the unclean!


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## ace2000 (May 17, 2012)

So, are we really talking about finding a timeshare on ebay, getting the free week, and then abandoning it when the fees come in?  Please tell me I'm wrong in that.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 17, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> So, are we really talking about finding a timeshare on ebay, getting the free week, and then abandoning it when the fees come in?  Please tell me I'm wrong in that.



Beyond the credit hit, which some on here claim is next to nothing, why not?  I wouldn't do it, because i value my credit and believe it would Really hurt my credit...But for those that don't or believe it is a small credit hit, its a Great way to get vacations for only $1

After all, as was explained in a thread about Paypal, the percentage increase to the other owners will just end up being a few bucks, while you will lose hundreds



> Your argument is that I should pay a Timeshare Company's MF, to keep the fees down. Let's do the math:
> 
> My Maintenance Fee is $1,550.
> 
> ...


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## theo (May 17, 2012)

*Upper upper...*



ampaholic said:


> Personally I am OK with this shift of timeshare ownership out of the upper classes and into my class (middle middle)...



You are a former Marine. Accordingly, I submit that by definition you're not "middle" *anything*... 

Semper Fi


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## rapmarks (May 17, 2012)

we have owned two weeks for 22 years at a fully sold out resort.   They sent a letter out saying they have a sales person now working full time on resales.   i inquired about our weeks, and no they will not resell them, and they sent me two pages of instructions on reselling including that they have to preapprove any buyer and the buyer must pay the next year's maintenace fees in advance, etc, etc,.    so they have made it very hard to sell my weeks, because they have weeks that have been turned back to sell.  I may join that group by turning back my weeks.  i have never done anything like that, but when you absolutely refuse to help your long term owners, something has to give.

She had the nerve to tell me that i probably didn't understand how RCI works and perhaps they could explain to me so i would get better use from my weeks.


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## ampaholic (May 17, 2012)

Thanks - I was speaking about my level of cash - not my level of _esprit de corps_

Don't get me wrong - my pride in the Corps goes beyond any pay grade!

Oorah!


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## ronparise (May 17, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> So, are we really talking about finding a timeshare on ebay, getting the free week, and then abandoning it when the fees come in?  Please tell me I'm wrong in that.



I guess Im the one that brought this up as a possibility....And yes I see it as a potential problem

Not that anyone would go into their purchase with that as their plan. But I do think that there are lots of folks, that when the first bill comes will start to rethink the descision they made six or eight months earlier

Years ago automobiles were a plaything for the wealthy. Then Henry Ford made them available to the masses. The end result was probably nothing anybody could have predicted..Interstate highways, air and water pollution, urban sprawl, 90 minute commutes to and from work, suburbs, exurbs, etc etc...Bringing a luxury item to the masses has had enormous consequences

Im sure bringing timeshares to the masses will have its own set of unimagined consequences...Sit back and enjoy the ride


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## AwayWeGo (May 17, 2012)

*You Typed A Mouthful.*




ronparise said:


> Bringing a luxury item to the masses has had enormous consequences


As Frank Lloyd Wright reputedly said, _Give Me The Luxuries & I Will Gladly Do Without The Necessities. _

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## tschwa2 (May 17, 2012)

While not thinking about abandoning it, I bought a biennial one that won't have any fees until 2016 and even that will be partially covered.  I figure I will start worrying about it in 2015 when I will be setting up the 2016 reservation.  For $255 I got free use of 2012 week, although not stellar it was still considered prime by SFX.  It had the $750 prepaid MF included and the $125 transfer fee.  So I will get a one bedroom Hilton Head prime week in 2014 and a partial paid one in 2016.  Hopefully by then the prepaid MF requirement will go away but if not I have a few years before I need to worry about it.


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## ampaholic (May 18, 2012)

theo said:


> You are a former Marine. Accordingly, I submit that by definition you're not "middle" *anything*...
> 
> Semper Fi



There are no _former_ marines!  

Semper Fidelis

The motto of *The United States Marine Corps*, the amphibious infantry complementary to the United States Navy, who often reduce it to Semper Fi; the motto signifies the dedication that individual Marines are expected to have to "The Corps" and to their fellow fighting men and women, for the rest of their days and beyond.


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## theo (May 18, 2012)

*Semantics?*



ampaholic said:


> There are no _former_ marines!
> 
> Semper Fidelis
> 
> The motto of *The United States Marine Corps*, the amphibious infantry complementary to the United States Navy, who often reduce it to Semper Fi; the motto signifies the dedication that individual Marines are expected to have to "The Corps" and to their fellow fighting men and women, for the rest of their days and beyond.



Well, as the years go by it can be argued that there may be former Marines --- just no *ex* Marines...  

Semper Fi


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## Ridewithme38 (May 18, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> There are no _former_ marines!
> 
> Semper Fidelis
> 
> The motto of *The United States Marine Corps*, the amphibious infantry complementary to the United States Navy, who often reduce it to Semper Fi; the motto signifies the dedication that individual Marines are expected to have to "The Corps" and to their fellow fighting men and women, for the rest of their days and beyond.





theo said:


> Well, as the years go by it can be argued that there may be former Marines --- just no *ex* Marines...
> 
> Semper Fi



Let me be the first to thank you both for your service! the civil war was indeed a great war and to have great men like you two fighting in it is what made this great country what it is today!


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## rrlongwell (May 18, 2012)

theo said:


> You are a former Marine. Accordingly, I submit that by definition you're not "middle" *anything*...
> 
> Semper Fi



Hey, don't pick on a vet that is a Marine.  That is not nice.  AF Veteran.


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## theo (May 18, 2012)

*You misunderstood*



rrlongwell said:


> Hey, don't pick on a vet that is a Marine.  That is not nice.  AF Veteran.



Pick on??? Not hardly. On the contrary, I was tipping my cap in respect. By my referring to being "not middle anything", I was instead plainly implying "head and shoulders above". I think ampaholic correctly got my drift --- but he's a *Marine*....


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## rrlongwell (May 18, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> ....to have great men like you two fighting in it is what made this great country what it is today!



I do not know, may I suggest using some of your timeshares to trade through RCI (back to back weeks) in a 3rd world country.  Do not forget to drive off the resort and the tourist areas.  Then come back and describe your findings.  May I suggest Syria?  I am guessing based on your earlier posts that you forgot a comma or period after the word country.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 18, 2012)

rrlongwell said:


> I do not know, may I suggest using some of your timeshares to trade through RCI (back to back weeks) in a 3rd world county.  Do not forget to drive off the resort and the tourist areas.  Then come back and describe your findings.  May I suggest Syria.



I didn't know the civil war effected those areas


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## rickandcindy23 (May 18, 2012)

Theo, I think most people got it.  I agree with you, too.

Ride, you get me laughing at times and scratching my head other times.  :rofl:


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## theo (May 18, 2012)

*Different strokes --- or scratches...*



rickandcindy23 said:


> Theo, I think most people got it.  I agree with you, too.
> 
> Ride, you get me laughing at times and scratching my head other times.  :rofl:



Odd, but before making his well-earned and permanent way onto my "ignore" list, the only body area "Ride" ever had me scratching was immediately below my lower back, just above the backs of my thighs....


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## Ridewithme38 (May 18, 2012)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Theo, I think most people got it.  I agree with you, too.
> 
> Ride, you get me laughing at times and scratching my head other times.  :rofl:



Thats awesome! i'm a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma surrounded by intrigue! muhuhuh

haha, i shouldn't post when i've been drinking


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## rrlongwell (May 18, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Thats awesome! i'm a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma surrounded by intrigue! muhuhuh
> 
> haha, i shouldn't post when i've been drinking



Or what you are smoking.


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## ampaholic (May 19, 2012)

rrlongwell said:


> Hey, don't pick on a vet that is a Marine.  That is not nice.  AF Veteran.



After you have been shot at in earnest - nothing much that happens back "in life" really phases you - including things that are said here.

P.S.
I knew Theo was tipping his hat - back at you buddy.

P.P.S. (to paraphrase Evelyn Beatrice Hall):
I may not agree with what Ride says - but I will defend to the death his right to say it (as long as he follows forum rules  ).

To everyone else who likes their freedom of speech (et. al.) - thank a vet - Memorial Day is coming up.


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## ampaholic (May 19, 2012)

theo said:


> Well, as the years go by it can be argued that there may be former Marines --- just no *ex* Marines...
> 
> Semper Fi



:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: 
OK you got me on that one - The confidence course would kill me now - never forget you have to double time back to the start for it to count.
Oorah!


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## Ridewithme38 (May 19, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> After you have been shot at in earnest - nothing much that happens back "in life" really phases you - including things that are said here.



Just wanted to point out, i have a lot of friends who went into the military right out of high school, i attempted but wasn't accepted because of a medical history of epilepsy as a very young child and now i'm too old...i have nothing but the greatest respect for those that served our country...this country is what it is because of you putting your life on the line to protect it...

I wouldn't never criticize the service, BUT the age of the person that served....thats fair game


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## pjrose (May 19, 2012)

theo said:


> You are a former Marine. Accordingly, I submit that by definition you're not "middle" *anything*...
> 
> Semper Fi



How the heck did this thread morph from timeshare prices to whether Marines can be former or ex?  

I'll stay on the second topic, and point out the parallel with Eagle Scouts: There are many men who WERE Boy Scouts, but those who made Eagle Scout ARE and always will be Eagle Scouts.


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## gnorth16 (May 19, 2012)

*Back sort of on topic...*

For those with the time and appropriate risk, there is an argument to be made on buying TS's off ebay with free closing and usage, using the free year and then reselling for cost or near cost.  

I want to start doing that, but I already have 4 TS's and I have planned all my trips (maybe one more) until the end of 2013.  I think I have 29 TPU left burning a hole in my pocket and itching to book another one.  Then I have my TPU's/one full usage comming in 2013.  Any more trips and I will have to quit my job so the two don't interfere... Wait a minute....that won't work...


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## spencersmama (May 20, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I wouldn't never criticize the service, BUT the age of the person that served....thats fair game



Is that what you were doing?  I just thought you were REALLY, REALLY bad in history!


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## theo (May 20, 2012)

*No apology forthcoming...*



pjrose said:


> How the heck did this thread morph from timeshare prices to whether Marines can be former or ex?



With all due respect, this *is* the "Lounge" forum, so a brief and friendly diversion (...directly to / with the OP of the entire thread, I might add) certainly seemed harmless enough to me. YMMV.


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## e.bram (May 20, 2012)

I submit, if anything the trend is from poorer to betterof owners.
What rich person would buy from developer with a 16% long term mortgage. Now most buyers(resale referred to by the OP)pay cash. That is the mark a higher income person.


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## pjrose (May 20, 2012)

pjrose said:


> How the heck did this thread morph from timeshare prices to whether Marines can be former or ex?





theo said:


> With all due respect, this *is* the "Lounge" forum, so a brief and friendly diversion (...directly to / with the OP of the entire thread, I might add) certainly seemed harmless enough to me. YMMV.



I'm an expert at going on tangents, and it's quite the tradition in the lounge. I wasn't in any way complaining, merely marveling at how this particular tangent happened, and decided to take full advantage of it!


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## Mel (May 20, 2012)

e.bram said:


> Now most buyers(resale referred to by the OP)pay cash. That is the mark a higher income person.


I would agree, if those resales were anywhere near the price of a developer week.  Those paying cash to buy the few resales that have maintained a high purchase price are more likely to be well-off (or simply have better money management skills).  But it just doesn't hold true when the asking price is $1, and the seller pays the closing costs.  Almost anyone can come up with $1 cash.


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## ronparise (May 21, 2012)

e.bram said:


> I submit, if anything the trend is from poorer to betterof owners.
> What rich person would buy from developer with a 16% long term mortgage. Now most buyers(resale referred to by the OP)pay cash. That is the mark a higher income person.



We are not talking about folks that buy from the developer. They may very well be affluent if they pay cash.

We are talking about folks like me; living from one social security check to the next.  That I paid  cash dollars to buy my timeshares does not mark me as "well off" or as a good money manager by any stretch of the imagination. The getting in was easy...I have to work to keep up with the fees...And if I cant keep up...well.... I wont. And thats a problem for the resorts....

I think that's the problem the op was talking about....It may be too easy and too cheap to buy a timeshare


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## ampaholic (May 21, 2012)

ronparise said:


> We are not talking abot folks that buy from the developer. They may very well be affluent if they pay cash.
> 
> We are talking about folks like me; living from one social security check to the next.  That I paid  cash dollars to buy my timeshares does not mark me as "well off" or as a good money manager by any stretch of the imagination. The getting in was easy...I have to work to keep up with the fees...And if I cant keep up...well.... I wont. And thats a problem for the resorts....
> 
> I think that's the problem the op was talking about....It may be too easy and too cheap to buy a timeshare



Ron hit the nail square - if the prices are so low that literally anyone can buy a timeshare - that it increases the odds that it may become the source of PCC inventory in the future when the MF's come due.

I was wondering if there is any "good things we can do" to lessen this slow moving catastrophe?


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## csxjohn (May 21, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> I was wondering if there is any "good things we can do" to lessen this slow moving catastrophe?




I'm not so sure there is a slow moving catastrophe on the way. But if there is, maybe we need government subsidies to artificially support the prices of our timeshares.  

We've been giving money to farmers for years not to plant certain crops so it's time to help the non farmers of this country.

Keeping the price up will keep the riff raff out.

Another thing we could do is borrow a trick from the politicians and spread the word in the media that all timeshares are a rip off.  It doesn't have to be true but when the uneducated hear it you will never be able to give them a timeshare because they "heard it on the news."


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## ronparise (May 21, 2012)

csxjohn said:


> I'm not so sure there is a slow moving catastrophe on the way. But if there is, maybe we need government subsidies to artificially support the prices of our timeshares.
> 
> We've been giving money to farmers for years not to plant certain crops so it's time to help the non farmers of this country.
> 
> ...



Too late..the riff-raff is already there...(its me)

But I dont think its a good idea to spread the word that timeshares are a rip-off. Thats just not true, and may backfire. Too much bad press may result in more defaults and higher fees for those of us that like and use this stuff

I would prefer an educated buyer, even if they are educated riff raff.  The word we need to get out and really hammer home is that the purchase price is a one time thing, but maintenance fees are forever


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## csxjohn (May 21, 2012)

ronparise said:


> Too late..the riff-raff is already there...(its me)
> I would prefer an educated buyer, even if they are educated riff raff.  The word we need to get out and really hammer home is that the purchase price is a one time thing, but maintenance fees are forever



My point exactly,  the uneducated won't take the time or effort to find out the truth, as evidenced by all the phony "scare" emails we all get.

That leaves the people interested in the truth to get in on this good thing we call timesharing.

I also forgot in the last post the I too am the riff raff in some of the resorts I go to.  I was surprised that I did run into a fellow retired R.R. freight conductor on my last visit to San Clemente Cove.  Who the heck let him in I wonder?


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## AwayWeGo (May 21, 2012)

*Truer Words Were Never Typed.*




ronparise said:


> I dont think its a good idea to spread the word that timeshares are a rip-off. Thats just not true, and may backfire. Too much bad press may result in more defaults and higher fees for those of us that like and use this stuff
> 
> I would prefer an educated buyer, even if they are educated riff raff.  The word we need to get out and really hammer home is that the purchase price is a one time thing, but maintenance fees are forever


You are correct, sir. 

This is about the most cogent timeshare idea I have read lately. 

Spread the word -- that (resale & _el freebo_) timeshares can make possible luxury resort accommodations at Motel 6 & Super 8 rates.  

What's not to like about that ? 

Is this a great country or what ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## csxjohn (May 21, 2012)

*You too are absolutely right.*



AwayWeGo said:


> You are correct, sir.
> 
> This is about the most cogent timeshare idea I have read lately.
> 
> ...



When I went to my first timeshare sales presentation in the 70's I was sure that hair brained idea won't catch on.

Boy was I wrong and for the last 14 years I've been  part of it.  

The worst TS I've stayed in was way better than a motel 6 or super 8.


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## Mel (May 22, 2012)

csxjohn said:


> I'm not so sure there is a slow moving catastrophe on the way. But if there is, maybe we need government subsidies to artificially support the prices of our timeshares.
> 
> We've been giving money to farmers for years not to plant certain crops so it's time to help the non farmers of this country.
> 
> ...


The problem is the riff raff and the uneducated are not always one and the same.  You want to discourage purchase by those who cannot afford to pay the annual costs, but you don't want to encourage those who can afford them, and already own them to abandon ship. Any campaign marketed toward the "uneducated" will likely result in a higher default rate.

What we need is management that will proactively work with owners.  When they are 2 months behind in maintenance, owners should be contacted, to find out why they are behind, and if they are likely to catch up.  Those who are struggling should be offered the option to deed back in lieu of foreclosure - it will cost the resort less, and be quicker.  Those not willing to work with management (by starting a payment plan, or ceding use of their current use week, or other options) should face swift foreclosure.  It may sound heartless, but it's what must be done.

As for transfers, perhaps one year of maintenance should be paid ahead, much like first and last month deposit when leasing an apartment.  I know I have read of buyers balking at the idea of providing their social security number when buying, but perhaps that's not such a bad thing.  The resort management should have the social security number of all owners, to facilitate collections.  When you buy from the developer, they run a credit check - not so with a resale, and maybe that's part of the problem.

Finally, we should be educating owners, and encouraging them to stick it out long enough to get a decent price when they choose to sell.  Prices are so low because the sellers are willing to accept them (because they don't want to wait for the right buyer).  Those low prices in turn encourage a higher default rate, which drive up maintenance fees, which in turn drive the dafault rate even higher, and the purchase price lower.  If those who buy from the developer see value in owning at that price, then why is there no value in purchasing resale?  

Also educate owners to understand that a small regular increase in maintenance fees is healthy, and allows for proper maintenance of the resort.  big jumps in fees occur when you don't maintain properly, and then are compounded by other owners who are unwilling to pay the initial big jump.  Better to pay all along, and share the burden with a full slate of owners.


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## AwayWeGo (May 22, 2012)

*Heartless Is As Heartless Does.*




Mel said:


> What we need is management that will proactively work with owners.  When they are 2 months behind in maintenance, owners should be contacted, to find out why they are behind, and if they are likely to catch up.  Those who are struggling should be offered the option to deed back in lieu of foreclosure - it will cost the resort less, and be quicker.  Those not willing to work with management (by starting a payment plan, or ceding use of their current use week, or other options) should face swift foreclosure.  It may sound heartless, but it's what must be done.


So you're saying timeshare resorts should switch their maintenance fee billing schedules from annual to monthly? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## ronparise (May 22, 2012)

Thats how I pay most of mine... (Welcome to Wyndham)


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## Mel (May 22, 2012)

AwayWeGo said:


> So you're saying timeshare resorts should switch their maintenance fee billing schedules from annual to monthly?
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


No, I'm saying give owners a grade period, but not too long, and then do something about their failure to pay.  If the fees are due by January 1st, and they haven't paid by March 1st, do something about it.  Don't wait until they're 2 years behind before trying to work something out with them.


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## csxjohn (May 22, 2012)

Mel said:


> No, I'm saying give owners a grade period, but not too long, and then do something about their failure to pay.  If the fees are due by January 1st, and they haven't paid by March 1st, do something about it.  Don't wait until they're 2 years behind before trying to work something out with them.



What you are suggesting makes too much sense so I don't see any way it will come to be.

I'm not sure any action could be taken that soon after a lack of payment.  I know if a renter stops paying rent, they have more rights than the landlord does.  They often live rent free for months and months.


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## ronparise (May 22, 2012)

csxjohn said:


> What you are suggesting makes too much sense so I don't see any way it will come to be.
> 
> I'm not sure any action could be taken that soon after a lack of payment.  I know if a renter stops paying rent, they have more rights than the landlord does.  They often live rent free for months and months.



This would be the hoas opportunity to open lines of communication with an owner. Depending on what they learn they could start collections, or even begin foreclosure proceedings, Depending on their owners plans could post the time for sale or rent. They might even offer to take it back right now..Of course they might get paid the same day


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## ampaholic (May 22, 2012)

*So - there is something we can do ...*

By encouraging our own HOA's to have high quality (as in smart) collection agents in good contact with overdue owners we can help keep our MF's down.

Seems easy enough.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 22, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> By encouraging our own HOA's to have high quality (as in smart) collection agents in good contact with overdue owners we can help keep our MF's down.
> 
> Seems easy enough.



I wish we could force the HOA's to take over any delinquent deeds, you'd see the resort quality turn around REALLY quick if we did that! Heck, you may even start seeing people actually paying money to get in if the HOA was doing its job


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## timeos2 (May 22, 2012)

csxjohn said:


> What you are suggesting makes too much sense so I don't see any way it will come to be.
> 
> I'm not sure any action could be taken that soon after a lack of payment.  I know if a renter stops paying rent, they have more rights than the landlord does.  They often live rent free for months and months.



That is exactly the way a well run HOA does it. By Sept each year that years delinquents are in foreclosure & none are allowed to get older than 6- 10 months. Usually by the next bill they already have a new owner.


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## am1 (May 22, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I wish we could force the HOA's to take over any delinquent deeds, you'd see the resort quality turn around REALLY quick if we did that! Heck, you may even start seeing people actually paying money to get in if the HOA was doing its job



I would like to see it that owners are required to pay what they owe.   Wages and bank accounts would be garnished till they were caught up.  With a financing cost included.  

I do not think either will ever be implemented.


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## geekette (May 22, 2012)

am1 said:


> I would like to see it that owners are required to pay what they owe.   Wages and bank accounts would be garnished till they were caught up.  With a financing cost included.
> 
> I do not think either will ever be implemented.



I doubt it as there would be many creditors in line ahead of them.  

Garnishing for child support, court-ordered restitution, these kinds of things make sense.  But not for timeshares, especially because of how they are sold.  Developer should be forced to take back weeks instead.  

I cannot in good conscience say "tough crap, you shouldn't have bought, even if you were brow-beaten and threatened.  We will now see to it that you completely satisfy this debt that should never have been an amount this high!"  

AND a financing cost on top of it?  

Sorry, I am not at all of the same mind.  Ruin the lives of the developers before their marks, please.


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## pacodemountainside (May 22, 2012)

AwayWeGo said:


> So you're saying timeshare resorts should switch their maintenance fee billing schedules from annual to monthly?
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​




To me this would lead to more abuse.

Say Joe Six Pack scammer who is a month behind on car payment and rent buys   for a buck a 154K Wyndham TS where seller pays all closing costs. He has  read up on TUG  and signs up for monthly MF.  Then he credit pools 2013 and 2014  points for $39  and books  a couple 231K points units or  three 154K units   a couple months  out.

He pays MF for  3 or so months until he has used points  and then  disappears or files bankruptcy.

Not good!


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## Passepartout (May 22, 2012)

geekette said:


> I doubt it as there would be many creditors in line ahead of them.
> 
> Garnishing for child support, court-ordered restitution, these kinds of things make sense.  But not for timeshares, especially because of how they are sold.  Developer should be forced to take back weeks instead.
> 
> ...



I absolutely agree with Geekette on this. If anything, force developers to produce contracts without the 'legalese' fine print so that prospective buyers actually understand what they are signing. 

They would scream like they were gutshot if they actually had to explain line by line and paragraph by paragraph what is in those contracts.  The number of sales would decline, but so would rescissions. Those who DO sign AFTER they know what they are buying would be far more likely to fulfill the stipulations than bail out.

Jim


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## Ridewithme38 (May 22, 2012)

Passepartout said:


> I absolutely agree with Geekette on this. If anything, force developers to produce contracts without the 'legalese' fine print so that prospective buyers actually understand what they are signing.
> 
> They would scream like they were gutshot if they actually had to explain line by line and paragraph by paragraph what is in those contracts.  The number of sales would decline, but so would rescissions. Those who DO sign AFTER they know what they are buying would be far more likely to fulfill the stipulations than bail out.
> 
> Jim


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## am1 (May 22, 2012)

geekette said:


> I doubt it as there would be many creditors in line ahead of them.
> 
> Garnishing for child support, court-ordered restitution, these kinds of things make sense.  But not for timeshares, especially because of how they are sold.  Developer should be forced to take back weeks instead.
> 
> ...



A debt is a debt.  Other legislation could go after the developers.  

How many people decide to walk away because others have done the same and  a result the fees goes up. 

If everyone paid their debts then things would be better run.  A lot of the costs of things is subsidizing people who either want an easy way out or failed to plan ahead.  

If my idea was implemented then maybe people would make better decisions.\

Legal fine print is accepted in everything.  People should protest that before purchasing not after they decide they do not want to pay.

Yes the time value of money it a very easy concept to understand.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 22, 2012)

am1 said:


> A debt is a debt.  Other legislation could go after the developers.
> 
> How many people decide to walk away because others have done the same and  a result the fees goes up.
> 
> ...



It would be nice if it was treated like a rental, if the property is not maintained to a certain standard, you can withhold rent...in this case, i'm betting 75% of timeshare owners would not have to pay a dime...I've seen too many Timeshares that look more like flop houses then 'resorts'  The HOA's have to be held responsible for things like that!


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## rickandcindy23 (May 22, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


>



I want to know how to upload a link like that. I like that one.


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## am1 (May 22, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> It would be nice if it was treated like a rental, if the property is not maintained to a certain standard, you can withhold rent...in this case, i'm betting 75% of timeshare owners would not have to pay a dime...I've seen too many Timeshares that look more like flop houses then 'resorts'  The HOA's have to be held responsible for things like that!



If a resort is not kept up then who should pay to get it up to your standard?  Rentals are a joke as most of not all places overwhelming favour the renter.  The landlord is the one that gets shafted.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 22, 2012)

am1 said:


> If a resort is not kept up then who should pay to get it up to your standard?  Rentals are a joke as most of not all places overwhelming favour the renter.  The landlord is the one that gets shafted.



Thats the way it Should be am1! the renters are the ones who are paying, they deserve favor....If a we are paying MF's to keep a 'resort' up and it isn't...That should come straight out of the HOA's pockets since they are the ones in charge of that...If people walk away because of a lack of amenities or poor conditions, those MF's should be put strictly on the HOA


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## timeos2 (May 22, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Thats the way it Should be am1! the renters are the ones who are paying, they deserve favor....If a we are paying MF's to keep a 'resort' up and it isn't...That should come straight out of the HOA's pockets since they are the ones in charge of that...If people walk away because of a lack of amenities or poor conditions, those MF's should be put strictly on the HOA



Talk about circular logic. The HOA IS the owners - they don't pay or owe one cent more or less than any other. But they do volunteer their time & effort toward running the property for all the other owners. 

Your hatred for the mythical HOA as your warped view seems to feel it exists is really in another world.  I think instead the HOA should blame all other owners as you are and raise the fees just because they can. And double for those that spew nonsensical "theories" regarding timeshares, HOA's and more. That can't be either but what a nice fantasy.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 22, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Talk about circular logic. The HOA IS the owners - they don't pay or owe one cent more or less than any other. But they do volunteer their time & effort toward running the property for all the other owners.



Unless the TS is run as a Democracy, the HOA isn't just owners, they are responsible for the upkeep and overall running of the resort...If the resort isn't being maintained it isn't the owners who have no say in the running of the resort, it is the HOA who is to blame,  Your example is like blaming the citizens for the upkeep of the highways, sure, your city and state representatives are citizens, but they are the citizens that are responsible for the upkeep


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## timeos2 (May 22, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Unless the TS is run as a Democracy, the HOA isn't just owners, they are responsible for the upkeep and overall running of the resort...If the resort isn't being maintained it isn't the owners who have no say in the running of the resort, it is the HOA who is to blame,  Your example is like blaming the citizens for the upkeep of the highways, sure, your city and state representatives are citizens, but they are the citizens that are responsible for the upkeep



If your local government or HOA isn't maintaining things it is still the owners/voters fault as they are free to vote them out & get a group that will do whats needed. Regardless they are all owners & ultimately responsible. There is no mythical HOA that exists apart from the owners.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 22, 2012)

There are developer-run HOA boards because the developer stacks the HOA BOD with its own people.  Wyndham comes to mind.  These guys are bad news.  They are not looking out for owners, just Wyndham, and that is a conflict of interest.


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## andex (May 22, 2012)

It should be procedure to do a credit check before allowing a transfer, it would avoid a lot of the problems you guys are mentioning. People who pull crap like that don’t care about their credit rating, therefore have no credit rating. 
Personally I think resale buyers are savvier and not necessarily less affluent, they were smart enough to know that the developers pitch didn’t sit right. When I talk about resell to average Joe, they blow it off and say they are too scared to look into it. When I talk to someone affluent their ears perk up. 
If anything, I think resale is cleaning the system up. Buying out the people, who shouldn’t own a timeshare, for whatever reasons today. Without a healthy resale market, time shares are worthless! But it does pose a problem for the developers wanting to make a killing on new sales. Why they don’t all have a buy/take back system is beyond me? Reselling the same item for pure profit and very little expense?


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## theo (May 22, 2012)

*Trick question?*



andex said:


> Why they don’t all have a buy/take back system is beyond me? Reselling the same item for pure profit and very little expense?



By definition, any "developer sales" involve and include as-yet unsold inventory. Once sold, there is a responsible party "on the hook" for maintenance fees. Why the would any developer want to consider taking "deedbacks" from paying customers while they still have unsold inventory in hand?


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## SOS8260456 (May 22, 2012)

pacodemountainside said:


> To me this would lead to more abuse.
> 
> Say Joe Six Pack scammer who is a month behind on car payment and rent buys   for a buck a 154K Wyndham TS where seller pays all closing costs. He has  read up on TUG  and signs up for monthly MF.  Then he credit pools 2013 and 2014  points for $39  and books  a couple 231K points units or  three 154K units   a couple months  out.
> 
> ...



Ok, I can see this happening with Wyndham because of the way they are set up.  However, most other timeshare systems require prepaying your future year's maintenance fees before having access to it, either by booking a floating week or by depositing it into an exchange company.  Although, even Wyndham's converted fixed week's maintenance fees are paid in advance.  ie the monthly fees being paid right now in 2012 will be turned over to the individual resorts HOA in Jan 2013 for the 2013 maintenance fees.

I know that there used to be some smaller resorts that would allow you to deposit your unit into RCI or II without paying that unit/year's maintenance fees, but I thought that they were in the minority.

I am new to Bluegreen, but I am pretty sure that if I want to use next year's points now, I have to prepay next year's maintenance fees.  They do allow me to book a vacation week for next year this year, but the maintenance fees are due in November.  I guess if I booked a Jan week and collections had not caught up with the past due balance yet I could take the vacation in January and then never pay the fees.

Not that I would ever do something like that, but I always sort of thought that most timeshares have some rules in place to protect themselves from that type of situation.   When we first owned Powhattan Plantation, they allowed us to pay the next year's fees monthly and it was very convenient. 

Are there any other bigger named timeshares that allow you to book vacations and possibly have use of them prior to paying the maintenance fees on them?

My memory may be failing me, but weren't there timeshares out there that forced all red week owners to also own an off season week.  It was just part of the ownership and the maintenance fees.  I am thinking Smugglers Notch.  Do any Smuggs owners want to chime in on if that helps this type of situation?


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## ampaholic (May 22, 2012)

SOS8260456 said:


> Ok, I can see this happening with Wyndham because of the way they are set up.  However, most other timeshare systems require prepaying your future year's maintenance fees before having access to it, either by booking a floating week or by depositing it into an exchange company.  Although, even Wyndham's converted fixed week's maintenance fees are paid in advance.  ie the monthly fees being paid right now in 2012 will be turned over to the individual resorts HOA in Jan 2013 for the 2013 maintenance fees.
> 
> I know that there used to be some smaller resorts that would allow you to deposit your unit into RCI or II without paying that unit/year's maintenance fees, but I thought that they were in the minority.
> 
> ...



With MROP I can reserve 20 months out but I have to pay the MF for that use year before I can use the week or deposit it.

Wapato Point in Manson WA. originally only sold 4 weeks to each owner - 1 week in each season - but many of the owners have sold off their blue and white weeks, keeping just the red.


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## pjrose (May 22, 2012)

andex said:


> It should be procedure to do a credit check before allowing a transfer, it would avoid a lot of the problems you guys are mentioning. People who pull crap like that don’t care about their credit rating, therefore have no credit rating.
> Personally I think resale buyers are savvier and not necessarily less affluent, they were smart enough to know that the developers pitch didn’t sit right. When I talk about resell to average Joe, they blow it off and say they are too scared to look into it. When I talk to someone affluent their ears perk up.
> . . .



I completely agree.



SOS8260456 said:


> . . .
> I know that there used to be some smaller resorts that would allow you to deposit your unit into RCI or II without paying that unit/year's maintenance fees, but I thought that they were in the minority.
> 
> . . .



That works with The Royal Resorts.


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## ronparise (May 22, 2012)

theo said:


> By definition, any "developer sales" involve and include as-yet unsold inventory. Once sold, there is a responsible party "on the hook" for maintenance fees. Why would any developer want to bother with "deedbacks" when they already have unsold, idle inventory in hand?



but we are talking about inventory where the responsible party slipped off the hook. And it wouldnt be the the developer to take it back anyway it would be the HOA and at resorts in active sales mode the developer doesnt pay mf for what he owns. The developer "subsidizes" the hoa, making up the difference between fees collected and the budget

It seems to me that it doesnt matter who owns the deed. If mf isnt getting paid the developer and or the HOA will still have to maintain the place. 

And it doesnt matter whether its a resale owner that paid a dollar for his timeshare or a retail owner with a $30000 mortgage....neither one has any skin in the game, and as soon as it becomes difficult to keep up the payments theiy're walking. because its easier to do that than to pay...and that of course in the ops point


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## Ridewithme38 (May 22, 2012)

SOS8260456 said:


> My memory may be failing me, but weren't there timeshares out there that forced all red week owners to also own an off season week.  It was just part of the ownership and the maintenance fees.  I am thinking Smugglers Notch.  Do any Smuggs owners want to chime in on if that helps this type of situation?



i don't think it's a 'forced to' thing with Smugglers Notch, i think you get 2 weeks for one MF, one red, one floating


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## jlr10 (May 23, 2012)

Sorry if I lost this in the thread.  Is this something that is shown to be happening or just something that is of concern that  might happen?  Is this more prevalent than those who don't bother to sell or pay maintenance fees?

For what it is worth (not much!) I think that cheap resales aren't totally bad. 'Poor people' are probably not trolling ebay in droves looking for a cheap timeshare vacation to take and walk way from.  Some middle class people (like us) are trolling looking for a week we have always wanted but could never justify the sales price but who are now happy to be able to go where we wanted to go along, and who pay the maintenance fees every year for that right.

At one of our resorts the (all owner) HOA is taking back weeks of defaulted owners.  They also just had a sale of those weeks for less than $500 for a onebedroom unit - Sold to the other owners who were able to get weeks for next to nothing and who knew that maintenance fees and assessment (for renovations needed from the non-owner HOA's lack of care) would be due, and payable for the next term.  Hopefully this will be a win-win for the resort and owners.  Perhaps if more HOAsdid this the cheap ebay sale would not be as much of a problem. But it would not work where there are more wanting to give back weeks then wanting to buy them.  Which brings us back to square one.  There will never be a perfect solution as long as their are people involved in the process.


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## andex (May 23, 2012)

theo said:


> By definition, any "developer sales" involve and include as-yet unsold inventory. Once sold, there is a responsible party "on the hook" for maintenance fees. Why would any developer want to bother with "deedbacks" when they already have unsold, idle inventory in hand?



To support their industry by creating a floor price for resale, and to rent out the units until they are re-sold with 0 cost to them and 100% sales profit. (I am not talking about taking the mortgage back just the unit)
If their prospects realizes that TS are a worthless investments it will make it that much harder to sell them as investments. 
I wonder how many timeshare would be given back at an organization like wyndham? That a lot of new sales with 0 cost to the corp and possible rentals through RCI and wyndham vacation, ect.. until they can unload the unwanted stuff. 
Just my opinion of course!


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## andex (May 23, 2012)

jlr10 said:


> 'Poor people' are probably not trolling ebay in droves looking for a cheap timeshare vacation to take and walk way from.  Some middle class people (like us) are trolling looking for a week we have always wanted but could never justify the sales price but who are now happy to be able to go where we wanted to go along, and who pay the maintenance fees every year for that right.
> 
> At one of our resorts the (all owner) HOA is taking back weeks of defaulted owners.  They also just had a sale of those weeks for less than $500 for a onebedroom unit - Sold to the other owners who were able to get weeks for next to nothing and who knew that maintenance fees and assessment (for renovations needed from the non-owner HOA's lack of care) would be due, and payable for the next term.  Hopefully this will be a win-win for the resort and owners.  Perhaps if more HOAsdid this the cheap ebay sale would not be as much of a problem. But it would not work where there are more wanting to give back weeks then wanting to buy them.  Which brings us back to square one.  There will never be a perfect solution as long as their are people involved in the process.



totally agree!


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## Mel (May 24, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Unless the TS is run as a Democracy, the HOA isn't just owners, they are responsible for the upkeep and overall running of the resort...If the resort isn't being maintained it isn't the owners who have no say in the running of the resort, it is the HOA who is to blame,  Your example is like blaming the citizens for the upkeep of the highways, sure, your city and state representatives are citizens, but they are the citizens that are responsible for the upkeep


You're confusing the HOA Board with the HOA.  The HOA is comprised of all unit-week owners.  Any time there are costs associated with the resort, they are shared by all HOA members.  The HOA Board is that subset of members who have agreed to serve on the board and make decisions regarding the running of the resort (note that this is also not the same as resort management, who is often hired to manage the day-to=day operation of the resort.

Most resorts run the same way as our government - not as a democracy, but as a republic, with elected representation.  However, certain decisions are still left to the entire membership (hence the reason you may get an annual report with a proxy request - you can show up and vote, or allow someone else to vote your share).  

One of those decisions is often the annual budget.  If the resort is not being maintaned, it is likely because the budget does not include enough to cover the cost of proper maintenance.  That is the responsibility of the entire HOA.  
How many owners are going to attend the annual meeting and complain that the annual fees are too low?  How many of the same owners are going to attend the same annual meeting and run for a seat on the HOA board on a platform of increasing maintenance fees?  How successful do you think they will be?


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## momeason (May 26, 2012)

BMWguynw said:


> I've purchased each of my timeshares on Ebay for virtually nothing.  For me, the true cost of ownership is the ongoing fees associated with it.  I plan for, and calculate, the maintenance fees, so when they come due I have the maoney set aside.  it makes ownership very manageable.  If I had had to pay a Developer price for a timeshare, I'd never have purchased one.
> 
> Dave



I agree totally. We actually signed a contract with developers two times. Once 20 years ago and again in 2007. Both times, I did research and decided to rescind. The second time my research brought me to TUG. I researched for a month or so and then purchased off Ebay. I have really enjoyed my first TS, but I have learned so much that I bought another(Sheraton Desert Oasis) and since Wyndham changed deposit values, I am planning to unload my first purchase probably next year after all my exchanges I have booked.
The point is that I assume that buyers on Ebay have done some research or they would not know to buy on Ebay. I give them credit for enough brains to plan on maintenance fees.
Who goes out and plans to buy a timeshare?..probably only those who have learned a least a little..better them than the impulse buyers at sales presentations. More of the developer sales would default, I think.


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