# is there a need to buy DVC now, when you can just use 25 TPU to trade in?



## krmlaw (Mar 2, 2011)

I have been thinking about DVC for a few years now

besides buying at BLT or Aulani, is there a reason to buy DVC anymore directly?


----------



## chalee94 (Mar 2, 2011)

depends on whether trades stay at 25 TPUs and whether DVC stays with RCI.

if things stay the same and you can be flexible on when you go, i would agree that there's no need to buy DVC.


----------



## vacationhopeful (Mar 2, 2011)

If you buy a small DVC contract, you can transfer points to your account. Renting points means having a DVC member making contracts for you.

If you are a DVC owner, your annual pass is $100 off and the renewal is $125 off the next years. Family of 4 would pay 60-80% of your DVC points MFs. Plus, as an annual pass member, your onsite Disney parking is free ($14 per visit) (even if you are staying at Bonnet Creek).

Hope this helps.


----------



## littlestar (Mar 2, 2011)

krmlaw said:


> I have been thinking about DVC for a few years now, but no way will i ever buy, bc i can buy a much cheaper ($1) TS on ebay, deposit it, and trade in.
> 
> besides buying at BLT or Aulani, is there a reason to buy DVC anymore directly?
> 
> am I missing something here ....



Nope.  If you're very flexible on your vacation dates and resort and don't mind working a little for a trade, probably not.  I think you have to be a bit of a gambler for trading, though. The only caution I would say is be careful with some of those $1.00 timeshares.  It could end up being something you'll never be able to get rid of in the future or have special assessments on.  Make sure it's something you wouldn't mind using just in case.  

Lots of people have school age kids and need to have definite dates for vacation and may need to change dates if something comes up - DVC is very flexible.  I still prefer to own some points myself (although I like trading in, too!).  If I want BLT, a Saratoga treehouse, Disney Hawaii, or an Animal Kingdom Lodge concierge room, a Grand Villa, I can call DVC and book it direct. And change it later if I need to.


----------



## Twinkstarr (Mar 2, 2011)

littlestar said:


> Nope.  If you're very flexible on your vacation dates and resort and don't mind working a little for a trade, probably not.  I think you have to be a bit of a gambler for trading, though. The only caution I would say is be careful with some of those $1.00 timeshares.  It could end up being something you'll never be able to get rid of in the future or have special assessments on.  Make sure it's something you wouldn't mind using just in case.
> 
> Lots of people have school age kids and need to have definite dates for vacation and may need to change dates if something comes up - DVC is very flexible.  I still prefer to own some points myself (although I like trading in, too!).  If I want BLT, a Saratoga treehouse, Disney Hawaii, or an Animal Kingdom Lodge concierge room, a Grand Villa, I can call DVC and book it direct. And change it later if I need to.



That's why we own, darned school calendar! We prefer to spend 4-5 day trips to WDW, since we have quite a few 4 day weekends through the year. The flexibility of the system to stay the exact # of days and villa size I want is why we own. 

I've booked a studio for myself when I did a solo trip for F&W, we book 3brs at SSR for Thanksgiving when we bring my sister. Had an overabundance of VB points(banked do to HI trip) so I booked a Beach Cottage for spring break. I like playing the 7 month switcheroo, we do one trip at SSR, the next trip at ?.


----------



## MichaelColey (Mar 2, 2011)

It's true that you can exchange in through RCI for considerably less in many cases, but there are still many cases where DVC makes sense:

1) If you're happy with Studios.  (Their Studios are actually a really great deal.  I think the points range from basically 10 to 30 (depending on the season, resort, view, etc.) and average about 20, so at $5 per point, Studios are about $100 per night.  1BR units are about double that, 2BR units are triple, and 3BR units are about 5-6X, so none of those are as good of a deal.

2) If you want short stays.  With RCI Weeks, you have to do a week at a time.  You might be able to do short stays with RCI Points (I haven't checked that), but the cost is higher (but still not as high as direct from DVC).

3) If you have specific times that you have to work around, like school holidays.  Flexibility helps with RCI, but DVC owners have considerably better selection.

4) If you need a 3BR unit.  You'll pay through the nose for it, but at least you can get them.  They're extremely rare on RCI.

5) If you want to get into Aulani, BLT or the Grand Californian.  I haven't heard of any reports of people getting those newer resorts through RCI yet.

6) Discounts on annual passes, and other owner perks.


----------



## littlestar (Mar 2, 2011)

Twinkstarr said:


> That's why we own, darned school calendar! We prefer to spend 4-5 day trips to WDW, since we have quite a few 4 day weekends through the year. The flexibility of the system to stay the exact # of days and villa size I want is why we own.
> 
> I've booked a studio for myself when I did a solo trip for F&W, we book 3brs at SSR for Thanksgiving when we bring my sister. Had an overabundance of VB points(banked do to HI trip) so I booked a Beach Cottage for spring break. I like playing the 7 month switcheroo, we do one trip at SSR, the next trip at ?.



We toured a Grand Villa at SSR - oh, my gosh, talk about gorgeous.  We stayed in a 3 bedroom treehouse last March and it was neat - I saw an old fashioned blue bird (the little round kind) in a tree and the last time I saw one of those was on my Grandpa's farm in Kentucky 40 years ago.   One of these days I'm going to try to grab a couple of nights in a beach cottage at Vero. 

I like being able to book the amount of days I want, too.  As a wedding present, we gave a friend of ours a couple of nights at Animal Kingdom Lodge for her honeymoon in May.  She's thrilled.


----------



## heathpack (Mar 2, 2011)

I think your previous post asking if you should be disappointed in getting Kidani is the answer to this question.  If you owned at DVC and wanted Jambo, you could call with some available dates and probably get it.  If you didn't and booked Kidani, you could call later and see if Jambo was available.  What's more important to you- staying at the lowest possible cost & taking what you get?  Or being able to call directly and have a better chance of getting what you want?

We have very specific "wants" from DVC and are ok with paying more to make it easier to get what we want.  You might prefer to keep costs at an absolute minimum and be fine with taking what you get.  I want to minimize the possibility that I get saddled with a timeshare I can't get rid of, so am very leery of the $1 eBay TS.  You may be fine with this possibility.

So to each his own, I'd say. 

H


----------



## tomandrobin (Mar 2, 2011)

For many of the reasons MichaelColey stated, we need DVC. 

We tend to travel short stays 2-5 days, we stay in studio-two bedrooms and seem to travel over holidays - Memorial Day, Labor Day, July 4th, and New Years Eve. 

Oh, almost all of our check-in days are on Wednesday and Thursday nights.


----------



## elaine (Mar 2, 2011)

for 1 week stays, if you are happy to stay at any DVC, or at least would take OKW or SSR at peak times, I would trade until it is not working out for you. But, I think trades will become tougher as more people pool TPUs.
Who should buy then?  I think it is a very good product for those who are unsavy and/or nervous about timeshares.  It is fair--everyone gets the same deal; no risk of picking a bad season/bad location based upon being wooed by the saleman; you can book directly with DVC and do not have to rely on "trading" thru RCI/II if you like the DVC places; cancel policies are about the most generous; and, compared to most TS, DVC holds it's value pretty well.
Let's face it, there are 100-1000X as many persons buying direct vs. buying resale. If I were one of those 1000s who got "suckered," I would sure be happy that it was while I was at WDW and had bought DVC vs. something else.


----------



## timeos2 (Mar 2, 2011)

*No buy yet - its coming before too long*

There is no reason to buy DVC now that makes it a gd value for most buyers.  Use the RCI system as the OP states to get in if you must.  Plus remember that resale price is plummeting as they (unwisely IMO) place new limits on resale purchases (much like the crazy Wyndham efforts to devalue their own product) and the dwindling number of years left on the RTU (you don't OWN DVC you long term rent the rights to use and pay the fees).  The longer you can wait the less you will pay both in purchase & ongoing costs.  As the years get to 5-10 left the resale value is likely to be near zero as the high fees will be enough to pay for most buyers.  

Use the current depressed environment to get in cheaply by trade or rent - then if you must pick up a 5-10 remaining contract for next to nothing & use it til it runs out.  Cheap way to use DVC.


----------



## got4boys (Mar 2, 2011)

krmlaw said:


> I have been thinking about DVC for a few years now, but no way will i ever buy, bc i can buy a much cheaper ($1) TS on ebay, deposit it, and trade in.
> 
> besides buying at BLT or Aulani, is there a reason to buy DVC anymore directly?
> 
> am I missing something here ....



Disney is also one that retains value or even sometimes increase. With the new resale DVC rule, March 21 is looming. You may get a very good deal after that date. 

If you purchased Old Key West when it was first offered - $51 - December 1991, used it until 2010, put it up for sale you would your initial investment back, maybe more. (I am not taking into account Maintenance fees) Right now small point packages at Old Key West are selling for $65-$68 per point. 

Even Bay Lake Tower, which was offered on Black Friday weekend 2010 was as at approximately $97 per point, now in the next few days will be $140 per point.

Under the new resale policy, you will not be eligible to use those Vacation Points to make reservations within the Concierge Collection, the Disney Collection or the Adventurer Collection. Those Vacation Points will instead be valid only for reservations at Disney Vacation Club resorts, as well as for RCI exchanges, Club Cordial and Club Intrawest. No more trading points for cruises (not a good value anyway)

Yes, you can get timeshares inexpensive - but once the trading company changes, you  are stuck. I'm one of them - I purchased Fox Run for Interval International when maintenance fees were cheap to get into Disney - now, you can't give them away. (Now I only trade this into Marriotts) - Used it twice to trade into Disney Old Key West through Interval.

That changed, now it is RCI. How long will the RCI TPU run last? I know there is the mileage limitation, but beware - the rules changes there too. I am a HGVC owner and the 1 in 4 rule, which use to not apply, will applies now and I cannot use RCI to trade back into the same HGVClub resorts once every 4 years. 

I do see in the future if DVC stays in RCI that they may enforce the 1 in 3 or 4 for a group of resorts.  There are too many people bragging about being able to get into DVC through RCI using inexpensive TPUs.

Peggy


----------



## chriskre (Mar 2, 2011)

Here is an earlier thread about this same info in case you wanna read it:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138392

But basically the reason I think DVC would be a good buy would be for someone who could take advantage of short stays in studios and you wanted to stay wherever you wanted to without working so hard for it.

Unfortunately RCI points doesn't have less than a 7 day option for DVC right now.  I can points stretch my small 150 points package to more than 17 days worth of stays in the value seasons if I go during the week.  Lucky for me I live in FL where this is an option.  

Sometimes I even get lucky like last month when I called on short notice and got a 4 night studio ressie at Boardwalk in a preferred view for President's day weekend.     That's the beauty of owning DVC.


----------



## timeos2 (Mar 3, 2011)

*Once it was the customer now its dollars*



got4boys said:


> That changed, now it is RCI. How long will the RCI TPU run last? I know there is the mileage limitation, but beware - the rules changes there too. I am a HGVC owner and the 1 in 4 rule, which use to not apply, will applies now and I cannot use RCI to trade back into the same HGVClub resorts once every 4 years.
> 
> Peggy



They are unlikely to switch back to II as they dabbled with them & found it wanting.  In fact it was the end of the free annual passes, the ever increasing arrogance of the DVC management (no say from the long term renters who pay the bills) and the switch to II back in the 90's that made us sell our DVC.  The value decline was obvious even then. 

It has gotten much worse since as profit has long ago surpassed customer experience as the primary goal of all things Disney. They still do it better than anyone else I'll give them that (customer relations I mean) but it's a shadow of what it was in the 60's & 70's when they truly were the best in every way.  Now the parks aren't even the state of the art and they spend more on a cruise line because it makes more $$$.


----------



## Twinkstarr (Mar 3, 2011)

littlestar said:


> We toured a Grand Villa at SSR - oh, my gosh, talk about gorgeous.  We stayed in a 3 bedroom treehouse last March and it was neat - I saw an old fashioned blue bird (the little round kind) in a tree and the last time I saw one of those was on my Grandpa's farm in Kentucky 40 years ago.   One of these days I'm going to try to grab a couple of nights in a beach cottage at Vero.
> 
> I like being able to book the amount of days I want, too.  As a wedding present, we gave a friend of ours a couple of nights at Animal Kingdom Lodge for her honeymoon in May.  She's thrilled.



It's amazing the wildlife you can see at WDW. We saw an armadillo crossing the road over at VWL Thanksgiving night. Ate at Artist Point, which was amazing(as good as the Cali Grill). 

I'm planning on taking the actual camera to VB to take pictures of the BC and resort. Seems like a lot of Tuggers ask about it, so I'll take pictures and stuff the resort activity sheet in my bag to scan and post.


----------



## bnoble (Mar 3, 2011)

> They are unlikely to switch back to II as they dabbled with them & found it wanting.


This is your reading, (and your bias), but not necessarily the truth of the matter.  DVC is a strong boon to any exchange company who has their exclusive business; they have a lot of members, and a desirable product that might drive a good amount of marginal business.  If II were able to give them a better deal when the current "multi-year" (probably two) contract expires, Mickey will jump in a heartbeat.  

(Hint: II needs to better develop their rental channel; Disney is using RCI to move its cash villa inventory to people who already "get" condo-style vacationing, and are willing to pay for it.)

There are other things that can happen.  The trade power can increase further---there is some evidence already that Disney has requested a floor, and nothing says that floor can't go higher.  Other restrictions beyond geography can be imposed on exchangers.  The inbound exchange fee can be increased.  There are also some rumblings that Disney may start offering differentiated services to its hotel guests depending on how deep their discount was---for example, some might not be eligible for ME, or EMH, etc.  They have even been floating a survey to past hotel guests asking them about this very thing.  You can bet that exchangers might start finding themselves on the wrong side of that ledger as well, as they are already treated as if they were cash guests, not Members.  There are even some folks who think that DVC might expand the Buena Vista Trading Company, their internal exchange system with Club Interwest and a few others, to include a few other high-end brands, and drop an external exchange system entirely.  All they need is enough destinations to dispel the "what if I don't want to come back every year" objection on the sales floor.

The bottom line is, as always, to buy where you want to stay.  If you want to go there once in a while, as an alternative to lots of different vacations, then sure, exchanging is fine.  If you want to go to Orlando frequently, but wouldn't mind staying in one of the many other lovely area resorts, then exchanging is also fine.  

And, *today*, you might even be able to visit routinely.  But, maybe not tomorrow.  Just ask those folks who bought inexpensive II traders specifically for DVC, or the folks who had inland summer RCI tigers that got whacked on 5/30/09.  Nothing is certain in exchange, ever.  Either you find the value of DVC to be there so that you can justify a purchase, or you decide that if you had to, you'd be just as happy (or at least "happy enough") staying somewhere else.

Edited to add: I believe that in the long run, as exchange and rental become more and more transparent, eventually valuation in exchange systems will be driven more by rental value than by anything else.  That's the true measure of supply and demand.  Over time, the sorts of inefficiencies that allow you to get a dollar for a dime in exchange will eventually disappear---or at least be harder to come by.  They just have to, because as more people find them, their advantages go away.  That's how markets work.


----------



## tombo (Mar 3, 2011)

Twinkstarr said:


> It's amazing the wildlife you can see at WDW. We saw an armadillo crossing the road over at VWL Thanksgiving night. Ate at Artist Point, which was amazing(as good as the Cali Grill).



It is funny how different things are good or bad depending on where you live. I love wildlife and love watching animals, but the only good armadillo is a dead armadillo in my area. They tear up your yard digging holes and the only two ways to get rid of them is to shoot them or trap them. I can assure you that the Disney groundskeepers are not thrilled that they have armadillos on site. The only joy I get out of seeing an armadillo is seeing a dead one. 

They are rare in your area and so it would be a novelty. If you want one I will try and trap one for you and you can pick it up on your way back from your Disney trip. The one you carry out of state would also be an armadillo I would get joy out of seeing.


----------



## chriskre (Mar 3, 2011)

Disney has their own trading company (Buena Vista Trading) but they haven't really done much with it.  I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't expand that avenue and kept the exchange fees for themselves.  Maybe even rebranding of one of the exchange platforms like Trading Places/VRI did.  

I'd be happy with that.   

But the likelihood of Disney IT being able to pull it off is pretty low considering they still haven't even figured out how to do online booking.  :annoyed:


----------



## timeos2 (Mar 3, 2011)

*Follow the TUG rules and you won't be posting "How do I get rid of.."*



bnoble said:


> And, *today*, you might even be able to visit routinely.  But, maybe not tomorrow.  Just ask those folks who bought inexpensive II traders specifically for DVC, or the folks who had inland summer RCI tigers that got whacked on 5/30/09.  Nothing is certain in exchange, ever.  Either you find the value of DVC to be there so that you can justify a purchase, or you decide that if you had to, you'd be just as happy (or at least "happy enough") staying somewhere else.



Next to "buy resale" "buy only to USE, not trade/rent" is perhaps the most valuable "rule" of TUG. Those that ignore those two cardinal rules litter the threads here with posts regretting bad choices, disillusionment and overall bad feelings about timeshare.  While extra value can often be gleaned from ownership with enough knowledge to work the system(s), those that think it's easy & decide to dabble in it for a quick buck or so called easy trades are the ones crying when it all goes south. A little so called knowledge can be very dangerous to their pocketbook. 

Buying to use, buying resale, buying where you can drive to if needed and buying owner controlled resorts are the most important ways to virtually guarantee a happy timeshare ownership experience.  Buying to trade, rent or buying full fare (developer) are nearly as sure to end badly for the vast majority of potential owners.

EDITED TO ADD: As fate would have it here is a classic post within minutes of this post with exactly the situation I had just described. It is too bad people think they can make money off a timeshare and thus get roped into a potential scam like that.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Mar 3, 2011)

The only thing I can say about TPU's only being 25 for Disney is that it's too much for the off-season, and too little for the prime seasons.  It's in need of adjustments.  The 3 bedrooms at Grand Beach in the fall and winter, this is one of the best Diamond Resorts, are only 12-15 points.  Those units are beautiful.  

Hilton is the same.  If Disney feels 25 needs to be the floor, then high seasons should be much higher than 25.  I don't know what the thinking is, but no other resort has a standard TPU like that.


----------



## chriskre (Mar 3, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> The only thing I can say about TPU's only being 25 for Disney is that it's too much for the off-season, and too little for the prime seasons.  It's in need of adjustments.  The 3 bedrooms at Grand Beach in the fall and winter, this is one of the best Diamond Resorts, are only 12-15 points.  Those units are beautiful.
> 
> Hilton is the same.  If Disney feels 25 needs to be the floor, then high seasons should be much higher than 25.  I don't know what the thinking is, but no other resort has a standard TPU like that.



I agree.  It's kind of wonky how they came up with those numbers.:ignore: 

It's like they've red weeked the whole thing and didn't want to mess with calculating low and high seasons so just threw this up til they can fix it, probably in response to the feeding frenzy that happened when DVC first went to TPU's.  

At least I hope they'll fix it cause I'm certainly not going to give them 25 TPU's for a studio in off season.  For me, I'd have to combine and pay combine fees and exchange fees to do that.     I'd rather use my DVC points for a studio stay.


----------



## krmlaw (Mar 3, 2011)

thanks for the input guys!


----------



## bnoble (Mar 3, 2011)

> If Disney feels 25 needs to be the floor, then high seasons should be much higher than 25. I don't know what the thinking is, but no other resort has a standard TPU like that.


It's not "standard."  It's a floor.  If a unit "would have been" lower due to RCI's normal computation, it gets set at 25.  But, if it would have been higher, it is assigned the higher priority.  There have been some (infrequent) weeks with higher exchange trade power.  A few July 4th 2BRs for instance.  I would be surprised if some of the units for President's Week through Easter were not higher as well---some of the other solid Orlando area resorts have been hovering in the high 20s for a 2BR during President's Week and the week after in 2012.

Remember: we haven't really seen DVC deposits in the "new" RCI for peak seasons yet---in Orlando, that would be Christmas/New Years, Presidents, and Easter, followed shortly by the spring break stretch between P-week and Easter.  Summer is *not* prime time in Orlando, because it's just too dang hot.  Heck, Disney charges some of the lowest prices of the year for their resorts from mid-July on through September.


----------



## Eli Mairs (Mar 3, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> They are unlikely to switch back to II as they dabbled with them & found it wanting.  In fact it was the end of the free annual passes, the ever increasing arrogance of the DVC management (no say from the long term renters who pay the bills) and the switch to II back in the 90's that made us sell our DVC.  The value decline was obvious even then.



I don't know what you mean by "dabbled", but DVC moved to II shortly after we became members in 1992, which is quite a long time to be dabbling.

Don't know how DVC found II wanting. If you have information on this, please explain. I assume that RCI gave them a better deal. 

I've belonged to both RCI and II, and dropped out of RCI years ago, as I felt that the best resorts were with II. I would never trade my DVC points to either company, but I can't imagine any DVC member being satisfied with anything that RCI has to offer in exchange.

I'm sure that DVC will return to II at some point in future. I predict that it will be sooner than later.

Finally, I don't know what you mean by value decline. We could still sell our points for more than our original cost, after 19 years. We have recouped our cost many times, with the free passes to 1999 (35+ five day passes), occasional rental of points, and the the value of staying in grand villas, for example, vs the rental costs.


----------



## timeos2 (Mar 3, 2011)

*Timeline wrong.*



Eli Mairs said:


> I don't know what you mean by "dabbled", but DVC moved to II shortly after we became members in 1992, which is quite a long time to be dabbling.



Your years are more than a bit off - the change to II was right around the time the free passes ended (1998 -99).  



Eli Mairs said:


> Don't know how DVC found II wanting. If you have information on this, please explain. I assume that RCI gave them a better deal.



The never ending games of "priorities" II plays with most of the few decent deposits they get irritate many & left DVC members cold. RCI has much better inventory availability. In fact a major reason we sold DVC was that ill-advised change to II. Remember it only lasted the 10 years they signed up for - then they could move back fast enough!  



Eli Mairs said:


> I'm sure that DVC will return to II at some point in future. I predict that it will be sooner than later.



I don't think you'd find many that agree. The "deal" was with II (allowing the infamous and totally unprecedented at the time $95 exchange penalty - RCI had refused to allow it although they did unfortunately give in with the new contract). 



Eli Mairs said:


> Finally, I don't know what you mean by value decline. We could still sell our points for more than our original cost, after 19 years. We have recouped our cost many times, with the free passes to 1999 (35+ five day passes), occasional rental of points, and the the value of staying in grand villas, for example, vs the rental costs.



Huh? Haven't you seen the recent prices for "old DVC" lately?  If you haven't rolled it over and still have your original points they are most assuredly NOT selling for more than 1992.  And it's going to get worse as more of the remaining use time disappears and fees rise.  Not a good combination for a buyer. Add in the new DVC restrictions soon to be imposed on resales and the message is clear. Prices are going nowhere but down and resales are not a good deal for sellers anymore & I don't feel they are better than renting now for buyers. 

I'm afraid you have the rather common Disney blinders on and if you did decide to sell you'd have a rude awakening.  On the other hand I would agree if you've enjoyed your years thus far you have gotten good value overall - but it's dwindling now IF you sell. For use you're no worse off & can continue to enjoy your RTU.  We also found we tired of Disney overall, something I NEVER thought would happen back in the 90's. But the experience changed for the worse as the corporate suits took over and now we seldom even consider a stop at Disney, although we average 6+ stays a year in Orlando & often one or two in California.  If we do a park its almost always Universal or the former Busch parks. Disney is not a draw for us anymore.


----------



## chalee94 (Mar 4, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> Huh? Haven't you seen the recent prices for "old DVC" lately?  If you haven't rolled it over and still have your original points they are most assuredly NOT selling for more than 1992.



OKW started selling in the $48-51 range.  most OKW2042 resales that i've seen (excluding stripped contracts with no pts till 2012 or bulk contracts over 300 pts) still run $60 or more per pt.  even subtracting a 10% commission on the sale, that still would be more than original prices.  original buyers at BCV are in a similar boat.

it's unusual that DVC resales retain so much value.  it could change at any time.  but it still seems accurate right now.


----------



## MichaelColey (Mar 4, 2011)

While some sell for $60 or more, I've also seen some sell for $40 or less.  I suppose it all depends on where you sell it, how big the contract is, and how much time you're willing to wait for the right buyer.

Even at the top end of that range, when you consider that there has been 60% of cumulative inflation between 1992 and now, they haven't even come close to retaining their original value.  They've done considerably better than other timeshares (many of which have lost nearly 100% of their value), but they're still a depreciating asset.


----------



## chalee94 (Mar 4, 2011)

Even at the top end of that range, when you consider that there has been 60% of cumulative inflation between 1992 and now, they haven't even come close to retaining their original value.

try telling that to the IRS if a $51 per pt buyer sells for $65 per pt.  

They've done considerably better than other timeshares (many of which have lost nearly 100% of their value), but they're still a depreciating asset.

no one is arguing that.  DVC will go to zero at some point.  but there have been periods where prices have increased due to demand spikes and inflation faster than that depreciation. OKW was selling in the $80s per pt prior to the recession.

but sure, i'd concede that with DVC's new more-adversarial stance on resales, those times might be going away for good.


----------



## Culli (Mar 5, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> Next to "buy resale" "buy only to USE, not trade/rent" is perhaps the most valuable "rule" of TUG. Those that ignore those two cardinal rules litter the threads here with posts regretting bad choices, disillusionment and overall bad feelings about timeshare.  While extra value can often be gleaned from ownership with enough knowledge to work the system(s), those that think it's easy & decide to dabble in it for a quick buck or so called easy trades are the ones crying when it all goes south. A little so called knowledge can be very dangerous to their pocketbook.
> 
> Buying to use, buying resale, buying where you can drive to if needed and buying owner controlled resorts are the most important ways to virtually guarantee a happy timeshare ownership experience.  Buying to trade, rent or buying full fare (developer) are nearly as sure to end badly for the vast majority of potential owners.
> 
> EDITED TO ADD: As fate would have it here is a classic post within minutes of this post with exactly the situation I had just described. It is too bad people think they can make money off a timeshare and thus get roped into a potential scam like that.



Very true, while I normally don't agree with all your opinions I do find them very insightful.  This is dead on TRUE.  I have learned a ton since joining TUG and this has to be the most important.

We got lucky with one mistake we made and I was able to give it away at no out of pocket cost to me.....why???  Because I got it resale and paid only transfer fees for it.  Love our Wyndham points........why?  Picked them up for super cheap and have a great water park Wyndham resort within 45min drive to our house.  We also like Wyndham's flexibility and have been able to pass some of the benefits to friends to help them reduce the cost of their vacations.  Would I be able to do this had I paid developer prices - NO WAY.  I also have a resort fixed summer week that trades very well, but I really do want to go to the resort some day as it looks great.  The only real problem I have is so many inexpensive options and great places to go....and only so much vacation time.  Now I don't have the cheapest portfolio or MF's on the block and I know I could find cheaper alternatives, but I do pretty good.  However, for what "retail" type vacations cost I feel following the above general rules has allowed me to vacation in a way both cost and flexibility I just couldn't do or wouldn't do if I didn't own what I own.  We are a family of six and need 2 brs on a regular basis if not 3br.

With that said - that is why we own DVC, have bought retail and resale and yes we trade into it as well.  I did get caught up some with the trying to hit the moving target of getting into DVC via trade.  The one thing that is has worked best for what we want to do is.........use OUR DVC POINTS to get exactly what we want (or close to it).  We bought before the prices have gotten completely out of control on the developer side and the incentives were good price wise and they gave us developer points.  Still the most expensive items in our "portfolio" but the most treasured.  We find Disney very expensive and for the way we like to travel if we didn't own DVC we wouldn't be able to go as often and enjoy it as much as we do.  DVC is not for everyone and I feel sorry for the people who get hooked into buying to trade into other places etc.........DVC works best only for staying at a DVC resort.

The main annoying thing I hate about DVC is I can see units deposited at 10-11 months that as an owner I can't get for another 3-4 months.  They shouldn't be able to deposit those units until DVC owners have some sort of chance to book them.  I'm sure there is some simple reason they do this but it annoys the $%#$@& out of me!  I do have to laugh at the DVC owners that go crazy that people can trade into DVC......but expect to be able to trade into other places.  How do they think the whole "exchange" thing works?


----------



## cpcat (Mar 5, 2011)

bnoble said:


> The bottom line is, as always, to buy where you want to stay.



Well said.  It seems like this axiom gets spouted over and over until you start talking about DVC.


----------



## cpcat (Mar 5, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> Next to "buy resale" "buy only to USE, not trade/rent" is perhaps the most valuable "rule" of TUG. Those that ignore those two cardinal rules litter the threads here with posts regretting bad choices, disillusionment and overall bad feelings about timeshare.  While extra value can often be gleaned from ownership with enough knowledge to work the system(s), those that think it's easy & decide to dabble in it for a quick buck or so called easy trades are the ones crying when it all goes south. A little so called knowledge can be very dangerous to their pocketbook.
> 
> Buying to use, buying resale, buying where you can drive to if needed and buying owner controlled resorts are the most important ways to virtually guarantee a happy timeshare ownership experience.  Buying to trade, rent or buying full fare (developer) are nearly as sure to end badly for the vast majority of potential owners.
> 
> EDITED TO ADD: As fate would have it here is a classic post within minutes of this post with exactly the situation I had just described. It is too bad people think they can make money off a timeshare and thus get roped into a potential scam like that.



I agree with this.  I bought direct however---for many reasons that are probably OT for this thread.

I don't agree with a dismal view of DVC value going forward.  I think it's positioned as well as any and probably better than most to hold its value.   The big advantage it has is demand.  

Just about every major TS Resort I know of has imposed some sort of restrictions on resales.  Apparently Disney is no different now.


----------



## cpcat (Mar 5, 2011)

Culli said:


> The main annoying thing I hate about DVC is I can see units deposited at 10-11 months that as an owner I can't get for another 3-4 months.  They shouldn't be able to deposit those units until DVC owners have some sort of chance to book them.  I'm sure there is some simple reason they do this but it annoys the $%#$@& out of me!  I do have to laugh at the DVC owners that go crazy that people can trade into DVC......but expect to be able to trade into other places.  How do they think the whole "exchange" thing works?



Not all of the resorts themselves are part of DVC yet.  For example, only 60 percent or so of AKV is currently part of DVC.  It's possible this is part of what you are seeing.  Otherwise, it must be owners depositing their home resort reservations.  No way to control that.

You can book 11 months out into your home DVC resort while the others you can't until 7 as I'm sure you know.  

Can someone say "Buy where you want to stay" again?


----------



## Culli (Mar 5, 2011)

cpcat said:


> Not all of the resorts themselves are part of DVC yet.  For example, only 60 percent or so of AKV is currently part of DVC.  It's possible this is part of what you are seeing.  Otherwise, it must be owners depositing their home resort reservations.  No way to control that.
> 
> You can book 11 months out into your home DVC resort while the others you can't until 7 as I'm sure you know.
> 
> Can someone say "Buy where you want to stay" again?



Yeah I know all the booking rules.  Just frustrating to see the highly desirable DVC units deposited in at 10 months.  I'm not sure how DVC determines what units, weeks gets deposited and at what timeframe.  Wyndham is good at depositing the less deseriable weeks and allowing any Wyn owner to book the desirable weeks in the system - now this doesn't always happen but very rarely can I not get a reservation at any Wyn if I do it right at their non ARP opening.  DVC doesn't do this but hey it is what it is.


----------



## cpcat (Mar 5, 2011)

Do you really have that much trouble booking at 7 months?


----------



## cpcat (Mar 5, 2011)

chalee94 said:


> but sure, i'd concede that with DVC's new more-adversarial stance on resales, those times might be going away for good



We'll see.  I'm not sure restrictions on resales will make that much difference.  What determines resale prices is good old supply/demand.  Most buy because they want to stay at DVC resorts (and that's the way it should be).  If demand remains high then so it will go.

One of the impressive things for me about DVC is the relatively small disparity b/w direct and resale prices.  The gap is narrow enough that even people who are well aware of the resale market may well still decide to buy direct.  I think this may be the only TS at this point where this is as likely to happen---and I think it all goes back to demand.


----------



## Culli (Mar 5, 2011)

cpcat said:


> Do you really have that much trouble booking at 7 months?



It depends, for the most part we are flexible for resort, like I said just annoying.    Actually for the upcoming trip my 7 month window has not come up yet so I will see if I can get what I want.  Other companies such as Marriott and Wyn do offer their exchanges to owners first then release to II or RCI.

So far we have been pretty lucky getting what we want at 11 or 7 months and RCI/II trades into DVC.  Flexibility at the 7 month window is the key but yes we have had a few first choices we couldn't get.


----------



## cpcat (Mar 5, 2011)

Culli said:


> It depends, for the most part we are flexible for resort, like I said just annoying.    Actually for the upcoming trip my 7 month window has not come up yet so I will see if I can get what I want.  Other companies such as Marriott and Wyn do offer their exchanges to owners first then release to II or RCI.
> 
> So far we have been pretty lucky getting what we want at 11 or 7 months and RCI/II trades into DVC.  Flexibility at the 7 month window is the key but yes we have had a few first choices we couldn't get.



I don't know about Wyndham, but Marriott's internal exchange preference is still through II and still requires a (discounted) exchange fee.  Marriott's new point system would be more akin to what you are referring to but that requires another cost of membership to join and I've elected not to so far.

It would be nice if RCI had an internal preference period for DVC similar to what II does with Marriott.  However, considering the added cost of exchange, I'll probably just book at my home resort at 11 months then change the reservation at 7 mos and wait-list as necessary.  The worst that can happen is you end up staying at your home resort and from what I can tell most wait-lists have a very good chance of success if done early.


----------



## bnoble (Mar 5, 2011)

> Yeah I know all the booking rules. Just frustrating to see the highly desirable DVC units deposited in at 10 months. I'm not sure how DVC determines what units, weeks gets deposited and at what timeframe. Wyndham is good at depositing the less deseriable weeks and allowing any Wyn owner to book the desirable weeks in the system - now this doesn't always happen but very rarely can I not get a reservation at any Wyn if I do it right at their non ARP opening. DVC doesn't do this but hey it is what it is.


Presumably, the 11-month deposits come from owners that own at the deposited resort wishing to exchange out.

As for how they choose: it appears to be a manual process, as the deposits tend to jump around in time, but are clearly not random---they tend to come bunched together.  As for why they choose high-value weeks, I am going to guess that DVC is willing to throw RCI some bones in exchange for better trade power (i.e. the "floor" of 25 that currently exists).  On the other hand, there are some things that appear never to be deposited---Concierge and Value views at AKV, Boardwalk and Standard views at BWV, and the Hospitality House area at OKW.  I'm also not aware of *any* BLT deposit, ever.

Wyndham's trade power was degraded significantly as a result of their deposit policy change of three or four years ago---prior to that, you could reserve and deposit any specific week.  Wyndham's policy favors internal use, nearly to the exclusion of anyone wishing to exchange.  DVC's seems more flexible, but that does sometimes mean that 7-11 month inventory is deposited, and sometimes, though rarely, that will be in high-demand locations and times.  On balance, most of what we see deposited is generally the less-popular resorts and/or at times that are not in as much internal demand.


----------



## MichaelColey (Mar 5, 2011)

Culli said:


> Wyndham is good at depositing the less deseriable weeks and allowing any Wyn owner to book the desirable weeks in the system.


Is that the case, or do Ongoing Searches grab most of the more desirable units/dates?  Keep in mind that what we see is the leftovers after Ongoing Searches are fulfilled.


----------



## timeos2 (Mar 5, 2011)

*You use you win*



cpcat said:


> Well said.  It seems like this axiom gets spouted over and over until you start talking about DVC.



If what you want and plan to use is DVC and the price is doable then it is foolish not to buy it!  I don't think it's a great value but I also don't enjoy the "everything Disney all the time" that some absolutely revel in. For them why not own it? Owning to USE, no matter what system it may be or at what cost, makes absolute sense. It represents a value to you and that bottom line is the most important of all.  

That doesn't mean you shouldn't look for the best possible deal - don't blindly pay top dollar without doing your research - but if the operation fits your needs and you feel it is good value to you then go for it! Don't try to convince others or even care about their opinions if it's a fit for you.  Be prepared for less than great news if you buy into a high priced system and then later decide to get out - your market may be limited to a very small subset of buyers ready & willing to pay a premium price.  That is the downside to a personal choice in timeshare similar to a brightly painted home in a resale market limiting potential buyers there. Once you personalize it the pool of buyers is diminished and reducing the chance of sale. If you realize that and want it anyway then be prepared to use it & enjoy. That is what vacation is all about after all.


----------



## Amy (Mar 5, 2011)

When we were preparing to move back to the left coast a couple of years ago, DH and I sold a couple of small contracts.  A year later we considered trimming our DVC holdings some more, as it was just too costly and a huge pain to travel from here to Orlando (with no nonstop flights).  

Then last fall I got off the waitlist (using other WDW resort points at 5 months out) for 2 nights in a 1BR Grand Californian for December 25th and 26th -- our first stay there.  While Disneyland/Cal Adventure/DD Disney CA is tiny compared with WDW, we loved stayed in the middle of Downtown Disney; everything was super convenient with the kids.  I have looked at cash rates for the Grand Californian regular hotel rooms ever since it opened and I could never stomach the prices.  And there we were staying at a 1BR for less than what the hotel was charging for its hotel unit over the holidays.  

With everyone talking about selling lately I raised the issue again with DH.  He said "No!"  He basically said he only wants to stay onsite at DL now.  (This is the same guy who was content with staying at the 2-room unit at the Ramada about 1/2 mile from the entrance the previous year.)   We often travel with at least one grandparent and always want at least a  1BR; also, we can only travel during school holidays. I cannot expect to trade into the Grand Californian over the holidays with one of my non-DVC RCI weeks.  Given the GC's higher points values (compared to comparable units at WDW), we barely have enough for the unit size/holiday seasons we want.   And now I'm thinking of planning a Xmas week trip at the Aulani; with so many units I'm confident we can get in after the 7 months mark.   So we're going to hold onto our existing contracts for a long time to come.

Looking back, I see my timeshare holdings have totally changed since I started timesharing around 1999 (like many other long time TUGgers).  I started off only buyer cheaper traders for exchange purposes.  Then I started adding places we want to stay at into the mix.  Then earlier this year I sold off my last tiger trader -- a studio So Cal. float all year week that we bought only for purposes of trading.  Now we _only_ own timeshares at (1) places where we want to stay or (2) places with either internal group trading [without needing to use an exchange company] or internal trading preference [when using RCI].

Back to the OP's question:  I don't think anyone can truly answer for you.  It depends so much on your travel preferences and how you were planning to use the DVC.  Even if we stilled lived in the midwest right now we would keep our DVC points because we only visited WDW around the Xmas holidays, we generally preferred BCV, we always want either a 1BR or 2BR unit, and I prefer the flexibility of having control over booking/waitlisting/canceling my reservations.  The other bonus -- $100 off annual passes -- is something that I would not count on but we were happy to accept for our family of 4.


----------



## Lisa P (Mar 5, 2011)

Culli said:


> Wyndham is good at depositing the less deseriable weeks and allowing any Wyn owner to book the desirable weeks in the system...





MichaelColey said:


> Is that the case, or do Ongoing Searches grab most of the more desirable units/dates?  Keep in mind that what we see is the leftovers after Ongoing Searches are fulfilled.



I do believe that Culli's statement here is true.  Many people have reported closely following the online availability of prime weeks at Wyndham online reservation portal throughout the early ARP period (13 months out => 10 months and 1 day out) and through the first month of the open booking, standard reservation period (10 months out or less).  Prime weeks at popular resorts are sometimes fully reserved by 9 months out.  All Wyndham owners have, at the time, been able to access reservations.

Then, at 7-9 months out, Wyndham makes its bulk deposits to RCI, drawing from what's left and from developer inventory.  So, ongoing searches haven't picked the prime weeks.  They never made it to RCI in the first place.  Further, back when RCI was granting significant internal preference to Wyndham trades back into another Wyndham (or Fairfield, as it were), I had desirable Wyndham deposits which should have matched to ongoing searches for prime holiday weeks.  But those prime holiday weeks were bypassed with the bulk bankings.

Some owners have complained if they were unable to use RCI to "trade up" lesser deposits into holiday weeks, saving on points.  But it really just means that Wyndham's reservation system favors their owners in being able to reserve what they want internally.  I've grown to like that.  DVC and other timeshare companies all have unique reservation procedures.  There are pros and cons to each.  In this particular way, I think Wyndham does well.


----------

