# Marriott Abound



## cubigbird (Jun 16, 2022)

_*Someone reported this post and requested a merge with the main thread or Marriott thread.  I think this topic is too important to bury in another thread. DeniseM

-------------------------------_






						Introducing Abound by Marriott Vacations™ | Marriott Vacations Worldwide
					

The Investor Relations website contains information about Marriott Vacations Worldwide's business for stockholders, potential investors, and financial analysts.




					ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 16, 2022)

Thanks for posting. Who wants to bet how quickly this thread will reach 100 pages? 

So far, no email update received on this as a resale owner...I presume I have been Bonvoyed!


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

So we have a name "Abound" but no other details and a video with some music and b-roll. *Yawn*


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

We have Vistana mandatory resales but are enrolled in Marriott DC. No emails about this. Was this from an email or did you just see the press release online?


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## Eric B (Jun 16, 2022)

I sense potential confusion here - as an unwashed mandatory resale owner would I be properly termed "Aboundless"?


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## NiteMaire (Jun 16, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> So far, no email update received on this as a resale owner...I presume I have been Bonvoyed!


Nah, you've been a-bounced from the program


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## Eric B (Jun 16, 2022)

It's been a while since I looked into much trademark law, but I'm amused by the entry on December 22, 2021, "ASSIGNED TO LIE".  It can only be interpreted one way....

*ABOUND BY MARRIOTT VACATIONS - Trademark Details*
_Status:_ 686 - Published For Opposition




*Serial Number*
97006434
*Word Mark*
ABOUND BY MARRIOTT VACATIONS
*Status
686* - Published For Opposition
*Status Date*
2022-01-25
*Filing Date*
2021-09-01
*Mark Drawing
4000* - Standard character mark Typeset
*Published for Opposition Date*
2022-01-25
*Attorney Name*
Lindsay Kaplan
*Law Office Assigned Location Code*
L90
*Employee Name*
GOODMAN, WENDY BETH
*Statements
Disclaimer with Predetermined Text*
"VACATIONS"
*Goods and Services*
Real estate timesharing services; vacation real estate timesharing; real estate services, namely, management, financing, brokerage, and leasing of timeshare properties; arranging of timeshare exchanges; arranging of time share holidays; real estate services, namely, management, financing, brokerage, and leasing of residential properties; vacation property exchange services; real estate services, namely, rental of vacation homes
*Goods and Services*
Hotel services; services for providing food and drink; restaurant and bar services; resort lodging services; providing temporary housing accommodations; reservations services for hotel accommodations for others
*Classification Information
International Class*
*036* - Insurance; financial affairs; monetary affairs; real estate affairs. - Insurance; financial affairs; monetary affairs; real estate affairs.
*US Class Codes*
100, 101, 102
*Class Status Code
6* - Active
*Class Status Date*
2021-10-14
*Primary Code*
036
*International Class*
*043* - Services for providing food and drink; temporary accommodation. - Services for providing food and drink; temporary accommodation.
*US Class Codes*
100, 101
*Class Status Code
6* - Active
*Class Status Date*
2021-10-14
*Primary Code*
043
*Current Trademark Owners
Party Name*
Marriott International, Inc.
*Party Type
20* - Owner at Publication
*Legal Entity Type
03* - Corporation
*Address*
_Please log in with your Justia account to see this address._
*Trademark Owner History
Party Name*
Marriott International, Inc.
*Party Type
20* - Owner at Publication
*Legal Entity Type
03* - Corporation
*Address*
_Please log in with your Justia account to see this address._
*Party Name*
Marriott International, Inc.
*Party Type
10* - Original Applicant
*Legal Entity Type
03* - Corporation
*Address*
_Please log in with your Justia account to see this address._
*Correspondences
Name*
LINDSAY KAPLAN
*Address*
_Please log in with your Justia account to see this address._
*Trademark Events*

*Event Date**Event Description*2021-09-04NEW APPLICATION ENTERED IN TRAM2021-10-14NEW APPLICATION OFFICE SUPPLIED DATA ENTERED IN TRAM2021-12-13ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER2021-12-19EXAMINERS AMENDMENT -WRITTEN2021-12-19EXAMINERS AMENDMENT E-MAILED2021-12-19NOTIFICATION OF EXAMINERS AMENDMENT E-MAILED2021-12-19EXAMINER'S AMENDMENT ENTERED2021-12-21APPROVED FOR PUB - PRINCIPAL REGISTER2021-12-22ASSIGNED TO LIE2022-01-05NOTIFICATION OF NOTICE OF PUBLICATION E-MAILED2022-01-25PUBLISHED FOR OPPOSITION2022-01-25OFFICIAL GAZETTE PUBLICATION CONFIRMATION E-MAILED


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## iowaguy09 (Jun 16, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks for posting. Who wants to bet how quickly this thread will reach 100 pages?
> 
> So far, no email update received on this as a resale owner...I presume I have been Bonvoyed!


No, you’ve been Abounded!


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## SueDonJ (Jun 16, 2022)

Eric B said:


> It's been a while since I looked into much trademark law, but I'm amused by the entry on December 22, 2021, "ASSIGNED TO LIE".  It can only be interpreted one way....
> 
> *ABOUND BY MARRIOTT VACATIONS - Trademark Details*
> _Status:_ 686 - Published For Opposition
> ...


That line jumped out at all of us, I think! 

But what also jumps out at me is that the trademark holder is Marriott, Intl.? Why wouldn't it be Marriott Vacations Worldwide which has been an entirely separate company from MI for years? Is there something here that hints at the corporate structure?


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## Eric B (Jun 16, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> That line jumped out at all of us, I think!
> 
> But what also jumps out at me is that the trademark holder is Marriott, Intl.? Why wouldn't it be Marriott Vacations Worldwide which has been an entirely separate company from MI for years? Is there something here that hints at the corporate structure?



Nothing terribly obvious, I'd say.  Doesn't MI own the trademark for "Marriott", which is licensed to MVW?  I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that there is a subsidiary based in some low corporate tax country that actually owns the intellectual property and licenses it to other parts of the corporation in order to minimize costs - that happens a fair amount.  It would also reduce the need for additional counsel in the trademark area.


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## BigDawgTUG (Jun 16, 2022)

There is a separate trademark filing for the logo:






*Word Mark*​*ABOUND* BY MARRIOTT VACATIONS*Goods and Services*​IC 036. US 100 101 102. G & S: Real estate timesharing services; vacation real estate timesharing; real estate services, namely, management, financing, brokerage, and leasing of timeshare properties; arranging of timeshare exchanges; arranging of time share holidays; real estate services, namely, management, financing, brokerage, and leasing of residential properties; vacation property exchange services; real estate services, namely, rental of vacation homes
IC 043. US 100 101. G & S: Hotel services; services for providing food and drink; restaurant and bar services; resort lodging services; providing temporary housing accommodations; reservations services for hotel accommodations for others*Mark Drawing Code*​(5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM*Serial Number*​97006405*Filing Date*​September 1, 2021*Current Basis*​1B*Original Filing Basis*​1B*Published for Opposition*​January 25, 2022*Owner*​(APPLICANT) Marriott International, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 10400 Fernwood Road Bethesda MARYLAND 20878*Attorney of Record*​Lindsay Kaplan*Disclaimer*​NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "VACATIONS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN*Description of Mark*​The mark consists of the word ABOUND above the words BY MARRIOTT VACATIONS. The two rows are the same length and the first row is much larger font than the bottom row.*Type of Mark*​SERVICE MARK*Register*​PRINCIPAL*Live/Dead Indicator*​LIVE


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## sjsharkie (Jun 16, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> So we have a name "Abound" but no other details and a video with some music and b-roll. *Yawn*


Concur.

I have mandatory resales with Vistana and not DC enrolled with Marriott -- nothing purchased from developer.  Did not receive email...


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## daviator (Jun 16, 2022)

Press Release

Abound seems to be the marketing name for the new "merged" DP program that allows access to Marriott, Sheraton and Westin timeshare properties.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

daviator said:


> Press Release
> 
> Abound seems to be the marketing name for the new "merged" DP program that allows access to Marriott, Sheraton and Westin timeshare properties.


That does seem to be the case. The combined program will be called Abound.


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## TravelTime (Jun 16, 2022)

Seems like there are 2 Abound threads now. Maybe they should be combined.


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## grgs (Jun 16, 2022)

This is now popping up when you login:


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## jabberwocky (Jun 16, 2022)

I feel left out. No email for me even with 4 VSN units, three of which are considered legitimate by Vistana.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> I feel left out. No email for me even with 4 VSN units, three of which are considered legitimate by Vistana.


I don't think there has been an email yet. Just the presser and now popup.


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## daviator (Jun 17, 2022)

So it sounds like DP becomes Abound (and maybe Destination Points become Abound Points, time will tell.)

DP was kind of a lame name so I guess they decided this was their chance to dump it.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

daviator said:


> So it sounds like DP becomes Abound (and maybe Destination Points become Abound Points, time will tell.)
> 
> DP was kind of a lame name so I guess they decided this was their chance to dump it.


I suspect they didn't have a service/trademark on Destinations Exchange Program. They wanted something they could trademark. I actually don't mind the name and it is certainly better than "HGV Max" that HGVC dreamt up.


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## daviator (Jun 17, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect they didn't have a service/trademark on Destinations Exchange Program. They wanted something they could trademark. I actually don't mind the name and it is certainly better than "HGV Max" that HGVC dreamt up.


I agree, and I agree that Abound is a decent name.  And from a marketing standpoint, it's a lot flashier than "Destinations Exchange Program."  The latter sounds like it was created by a bean-counter and not a marketer.

Can you use your Marriott Boundless credit card to pay for Abound?


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## mbstn6254 (Jun 17, 2022)

I noticed in the press release there was a mention of enrolled properties. Did I read that wrong and is this new program also for MVC members that are just points owners? It was my impression the term enrolled had to do with deeded weeks that enrolled into the Points program. Is Abound just the new name for MVC or is it something different like our membership into II?

I don't pay that much attention to all the details that go into MVC ownership so I beg your forgiveness in advance.

Thanks


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

mbstn6254 said:


> I noticed in the press release there was a mention of enrolled properties. Did I read that wrong and is this new program also for MVC members that are just points owners? It was my impression the term enrolled had to do with deeded weeks that enrolled into the Points program. Is Abound just the new name for MVC or is it something different like our membership into II?
> 
> I don't pay that much attention to all the details that go into MVC ownership so I beg your forgiveness in advance.
> 
> Thanks


Abound is the new name for the Destinations Exchange Program (MCV Exchange Company). Even trust point owners are enrolled in the exchange program.


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## mbstn6254 (Jun 17, 2022)

Abound is the new name for the Destinations Exchange Program (MCV Exchange Company). Even trust point owners are enrolled in the exchange program. 

Not sure what the MCV Exchange Program is. I always thought that was II.

Thank you again.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

mbstn6254 said:


> Abound is the new name for the Destinations Exchange Program (MCV Exchange Company). Even trust point owners are enrolled in the exchange program.
> 
> Not sure what the MCV Exchange Program is. I always thought that was II.
> 
> Thank you again.


MVC Exchange Company is the legal name of the Destinations Exchange Program. "Destinations Exchange Program" was used for marketing, but if you look at the exchange company disclosure, it reads "MVC Exchange Company". Abound is really just going to be a marketing term. I doubt they are actually changing the legal name of the MVC Exchange Company.


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## NiteMaire (Jun 17, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect they didn't have a service/trademark on Destinations Exchange Program. They wanted something they could trademark...
> 
> MVC Exchange Company is the legal name of the Destinations Exchange Program. "Destinations Exchange Program" was used for marketing, but if you look at the exchange company disclosure, it reads "MVC Exchange Company". Abound is really just going to be a marketing term.


In 2017, DRI launched DestinationXchange (internal exchange for weeks which has since been expanded for points as well). Could that have been a/the reason they didn't/couldn't?


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

NiteMaire said:


> In 2017, DRI launched DestinationXchange (internal exchange for weeks which has since been expanded for points as well). Could that have been a/the reason they didn't/couldn't?


Anything is possible, but I think they have two very common terms "Destinations" and "Exchange". Together they could be considered to be a common term and not able to be trademarked. DestinationXchange is trademarked but that probably came long after Marriott created the Destinations Exchange term back in 2010. I do think going with a single word here works best. I know many don't/didn't like Bonvoy. But we all use it now and it is recognizable to the Marriott brand.


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## Eric B (Jun 17, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Anything is possible, but I think they have two very common terms "Destinations" and "Exchange". Together they could be considered to be a common term and not able to be trademarked. DestinationXchange is trademarked but that probably came long after Marriott created the Destinations Exchange term back in 2010. I do think going with a single word here works best. I know many don't/didn't like Bonvoy. But we all use it now and it is recognizable to the Marriott brand.



The issue isn’t so much how common the words are but instead the fact that they describe the product or service.  The combined term used by DRI has distinctive aspects due to the abnormal spelling and concatenation that can make up for the descriptiveness.  As I mentioned earlier, though, it’s been a long time since I took Trademark law classes.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 17, 2022)

daviator said:


> Can you use your Marriott Boundless credit card to pay for Abound?



So if we are resale and unenrolled does that make us A-Bound-less?


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## chris1278 (Jun 17, 2022)

Is the popup happening for everyone or just developer purchased? Resale owner here and no popup.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

chris1278 said:


> Is the popup happening for everyone or just developer purchased? Resale owner here and no popup.


I am seeing it as a mandatory resale owner. Do you own mandatory or voluntary?


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 17, 2022)

I see pop-up as a mandatory resale owner. But I also see Bonvoy which we don't have access to either. I will wait for the formal announcement.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

chris1278 said:


> Is the popup happening for everyone or just developer purchased? Resale owner here and no popup.


Another question, do you have an adblocker? I notice if I turn on my adblocker for Vistana.com I don't see the popup. The popup shows up when I turn the adblocker off. If you have an adblocker, try whitelisting vistana.com or turning it off for Vistana.com and see if you see the popup.


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## chris1278 (Jun 17, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I am seeing it as a mandatory resale owner. Do you own mandatory or voluntary?



We own mandatory.



dioxide45 said:


> Another question, do you have an adblocker? I notice if I turn on my adblocker for Vistana.com I don't see the popup. The popup shows up when I turn the adblocker off. If you have an adblocker, try whitelisting vistana.com or turning it off for Vistana.com and see if you see the popup.



Ahh, that was it!


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

Looking at this popup more, it does say a new usage option for VSN members.


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## daviator (Jun 17, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> So if we are resale and unenrolled does that make us A-Bound-less?


I think that question is out of bounds!


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## cbyrne1174 (Jun 17, 2022)

Has anyone heard whether or not legacy Marriott resale weeks will also get westin/vistana priority in Interval? Or vice versa?


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## VacationForever (Jun 17, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Has anyone heard whether or not legacy Marriott resale weeks will also get westin/vistana priority in Interval? Or vice versa?


They already have priority in Interval - Marriott-Marriott, Marriott-Vistana, Vistana-Vistana and Vistana-Marriott.  It applies to all ownerships, regardless of how they were procured.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> They already have priority in Interval - Marriott-Marriott, Marriott-Vistana, Vistana-Vistana and Vistana-Marriott.  It applies to all ownerships, regardless of how they were procured.


There is a Marriott to Marriott and Vistana to Vistana priority, but the latter of Marriott to Vistana and Vistana to Marriott is only a preference period that kicks in at some point after or during the priority period. We don't have a true Marriott to Vistana or Vistana to Marriott priority starting on day one.


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## VacationForever (Jun 17, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> There is a Marriott to Marriott and Vistana to Vistana priority, but the latter of Marriott to Vistana and Vistana to Marriott is only a preference period that kicks in at some point after or during the priority period. We don't have a true Marriott to Vistana or Vistana to Marriott priority starting on day one.


Yes, I know, but there is secondary priority after the primary Marriott-Marriott and Vistana-Vistana priority.  I was addressing retail vs. resale, they have the same priority.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> Yes, I know, but there is secondary priority after the primary Marriott-Marriott and Vistana-Vistana priority.  I was addressing retail vs. resale, they have the same priority.


Sorry, misunderstood. You are correct, no difference between resale and retail. II is blind to how you bought your week.


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## pchung6 (Jun 17, 2022)

I don't like the name ABound. Are we Abound to get more timeouts? But whatever, as long as I can keep what I used to have with Staroptions, I'm ok with whatever.


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## sparty (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Looking at this popup more, it does say a new usage option for VSN members.
> View attachment 58267


Yeah this seems kind of dumb on Marriott/Vistana's part - if it's only for members why not conditionally show the popup for only the vsn members?


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## kozykritter (Jun 18, 2022)

sparty said:


> Yeah this seems kind of dumb on Marriott/Vistana's part - if it's only for members why not conditionally show the popup for only the vsn members?


Because it's a tool to get those not eligible for the VSN to requalify so they will have the option. It's good marketing.


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## timsi (Jun 18, 2022)

I speculate that a lot less people will be excited about Abound when they see the actual details and start to use it. In some ways now before the official launch may be the best period for the sales team because they have more ways to spin the story.


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## cbyrne1174 (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> There is a Marriott to Marriott and Vistana to Vistana priority, but the latter of Marriott to Vistana and Vistana to Marriott is only a preference period that kicks in at some point after or during the priority period. We don't have a true Marriott to Vistana or Vistana to Marriott priority starting on day one.


Has there been any rumors of it changing to day 1 priority? Marriott Lock off splitting is the only thing that makes financial sense for me. The summer Orlando flex change inventory is kick ass. I've seen my studio pair with a 2 bedroom at every Orlando property except Lakeshore for just a $164 exchange fee. I want another week lol . Would love if it worked for the good Westin deposits.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Looking at this popup more, it does say a new usage option for VSN members.
> View attachment 58267





sparty said:


> Yeah this seems kind of dumb on Marriott/Vistana's part - if it's only for members why not conditionally show the popup for only the vsn members?





kozykritter said:


> Because it's a tool to get those not eligible for the VSN to requalify so they will have the option. It's good marketing.


I'm not sure which question makes more sense or if either/both don't make any sense at all but I'm trying to understand the basics ...

- Which Vistana owners would not be considered VSN members, so not eligible for whatever Abound is?
- Which Vistana resorts, if any, are not in the VSN network?


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> Which Vistana owners would not be considered VSN members, so not eligible for whatever Abound is?



Owners that purchased resale and didn't requalify voluntary Vistana resort ownerships.



SueDonJ said:


> - Which Vistana resorts, if any, are not in the VSN network?



The resorts are divided between mandatory ones, for which VSN membership is included in the CC&Rs, and voluntary ones, for which VSN membership is granted to a purchaser from the developer or a resale purchaser that requalifies a purchase.  All flex ownerships are voluntary (though not really a resort per se).  Bottom line is that all of the Vistana resorts are in the network, but some owners at some resorts are not members.


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## Bill4728 (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Sorry, misunderstood. You are correct, no difference between resale and retail. II is blind to how you bought your week.


Not really, since retail owners have a corporate account  and resale owners have an individual account.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

Bill4728 said:


> Not really, since retail owners have a corporate account  and resale owners have an individual account.


But many (possibly 40%) of retail owners also have individual accounts.


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## vikingsholm (Jun 18, 2022)

I don't really care what they call it, and have never gotten worked up over the name Bonvoy either.

What did rile me up though is that I just opened the Marriott news release link. On that page are links to Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton. I wanted to check out Westin and Sheraton to see what resorts they have, since we don't own at either but do at Marriott, and we've only used those other two systems a few times on exchanges.

All of these links go to a Facebook page for each resort system. Then ask you to log in to FB to see the content.

WTH? I hate Facebook. I have never registered for it and never ever will. Their shiny new toy Meta seems even more ridiculous.

What possible reason would they have for sending us to links on a garbage site like Facebook instead of using their own corporate page, when they're introducing the program?

I have no problem if they set up a FB page for those who want it, in parallel. But as their main link when introducing a program?

This abounds with stupidity.


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## VacationForever (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> But many (possibly 40%) of retail owners also have individual accounts.


When you buy a voluntary resort from Vistana, you also get VSN and II account.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> When you buy a voluntary resort from Vistana, you also get VSN and II account.


My reply was more for those that own Marriott given the 40% unenrolled number that was provided during their Investor Day event. Truth is, as you pointed out earlier, II doesn't care if you bought resale or direct. They may be able to tell for some people who the developer owners are, but not for every owner. Thus they don't care how you acquired your ownership and the priority/preference is the same for both types of owners.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 18, 2022)

vikingsholm said:


> I don't really care what they call it, and have never gotten worked up over the name Bonvoy either.
> 
> What did rile me up though is that I just opened the Marriott news release link. On that page are links to Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton. I wanted to check out Westin and Sheraton to see what resorts they have, since we don't own at either but do at Marriott, and we've only used those other two systems a few times on exchanges.
> 
> ...


Taking a guess here but were the links that you clicked the same ones in the last sentence of the first section of the press release? The ones embedded in the sentence that says, "_For those interested in immersing themselves in the endless vacation possibilities with these brands now, follow Marriott Vacation Club®, Sheraton® Vacation Club and Westin® Vacation Club on social media?_" If so, with the sentence literally saying, "_follow [us] on social media_," why wouldn't a reader expect that those links would direct to social media sites?

[eta] I understand that you would have preferred direct links to the information that you're looking for but for their purposes it seems that getting more social media interaction is their aim, and in this day and age that's not a surprise. I think you can find a list of all the Westin and Sheraton resorts by clicking on the "Destinations" tab at vistana.com.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> Taking a guess here but were the links that you clicked the same ones in the last sentence of the first section of the press release? The ones embedded in the sentence that says, "_For those interested in immersing themselves in the endless vacation possibilities with these brands now, follow Marriott Vacation Club®, Sheraton® Vacation Club and Westin® Vacation Club on social media?_" If so, with the sentence literally saying, "_follow [us] on social media_," why wouldn't a reader expect that those links would direct to social media sites?



Well, yeah, but I prefer TUG as my social media....


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

vikingsholm said:


> I don't really care what they call it, and have never gotten worked up over the name Bonvoy either.
> 
> What did rile me up though is that I just opened the Marriott news release link. On that page are links to Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton. I wanted to check out Westin and Sheraton to see what resorts they have, since we don't own at either but do at Marriott, and we've only used those other two systems a few times on exchanges.
> 
> ...


You can go to Vistana.com to take a look at the resorts they have in their system.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> You can go to Vistana.com to take a look at the resorts they have in their system.


GMTA - I just finished editing my post to include the vistana.com link. Are the Sheraton and Westin resorts at the "Destinations" tab all of the Vistana resorts? If so I didn't realize how many fewer resorts in that portfolio than in Marriott's.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> GMTA - I just finished editing my post to include the vistana.com link. Are the Sheraton and Westin resorts at the "Destinations" tab all of the Vistana resorts? If so I didn't realize how many fewer resorts in that portfolio than in Marriott's.


Yes, they are all there. They only have a little over 20 properties.


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## remowidget (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> My reply was more for those that own Marriott given the 40% unenrolled number that was provided during their Investor Day event. Truth is, as you pointed out earlier, II doesn't care if you bought resale or direct. They may be able to tell for some people who the developer owners are, but not for every owner. Thus they don't care how you acquired your ownership and the priority/preference is the same for both types of owners.


So, resale Vistana gets the internal exchange time benefit?


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## remowidget (Jun 18, 2022)

vikingsholm said:


> I don't really care what they call it, and have never gotten worked up over the name Bonvoy either.
> 
> What did rile me up though is that I just opened the Marriott news release link. On that page are links to Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton. I wanted to check out Westin and Sheraton to see what resorts they have, since we don't own at either but do at Marriott, and we've only used those other two systems a few times on exchanges.
> 
> ...


You can see the Vistana Staroptions chart with all of the resorts here:




__





						StarOptions Value Chart 2021 – 2022 | Advantage Vacation Timeshare Resales
					





					advantagevacation.com


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## remowidget (Jun 18, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Well, yeah, but I prefer TUG as my social media....


Lol. I'm guessing the tug is not on Marriotts preferred list of social media.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 18, 2022)

remowidget said:


> You can see the Vistana Staroptions chart with all of the resorts here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Getting an error message at your link:

*Redirect Notice*
_ The previous page is sending you to an invalid url.

If you do not want to visit that page, you can return to the previous page._

[ETA] Now this is very odd! The link doesn't work for me in your post #60 above, but it does work in the quoted section of this post. No idea how/why to fix that!


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## remowidget (Jun 18, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> Getting an error message at your link:
> 
> *Redirect Notice*
> _ The previous page is sending you to an invalid url.
> ...


I changed it to a non-vistana link





__





						StarOptions Value Chart 2021 – 2022 | Advantage Vacation Timeshare Resales
					





					advantagevacation.com


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## SueDonJ (Jun 18, 2022)

remowidget said:


> I changed it to a non-vistana link
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks!


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

remowidget said:


> So, resale Vistana gets the internal exchange time benefit?


A select few resale Vistana resorts have the ability to use StarOptions to trade into other Vistana resorts. Most resorts do not.


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## iqmavin (Jun 18, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> I feel left out. No email for me even with 4 VSN units, three of which are considered legitimate by Vistana.



I logged onto Vistana site. That’s where I saw this vacuous notice.  More to come in dries and drabs. Stay tuned.


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## remowidget (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> A select few resale Vistana resorts have the ability to use StarOptions to trade into other Vistana resorts. Most resorts do not.


Oops. I was asking about Interval International internal exchanges. Do resale owners get access to the ability to book Vistana and Marriott resorts before other timeshare owners? I'm not sure if I am clear, so I found this explanation.

"When a Marriott owner deposits their week into II that week is essentially put on and internal hold for a designated amount of time. While the week is on “hold” it can only be booked by other Marriott owners who have also deposited their weeks into Interval International. The amount of time the week is kept on hold depends on how far in advance it is deposited before week’s check in date. The longest amount of time a week will be held for Marriott priority booking is 24 days. This timeframe gets shorter the closer it is to the check-in date. The shortest amount of time a week is held is 3 days."


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## SueDonJ (Jun 18, 2022)

remowidget said:


> Oops. I was asking about Interval International internal exchanges. Do resale owners get access to the ability to book Vistana and Marriott resorts before other timeshare owners? I'm not sure if I am clear, so I found this explanation.
> 
> "When a Marriott owner deposits their week into II that week is essentially put on and internal hold for a designated amount of time. While the week is on “hold” it can only be booked by other Marriott owners who have also deposited their weeks into Interval International. The amount of time the week is kept on hold depends on how far in advance it is deposited before week’s check in date. The longest amount of time a week will be held for Marriott priority booking is 24 days. This timeframe gets shorter the closer it is to the check-in date. The shortest amount of time a week is held is 3 days."


To verify what I'm sure you already know from what you found, there's no difference between external-resale and direct-purchase Marriott Weeks when it comes to exchanging in II, including whatever priority booking a deposit might have. (Really the only difference between them - other than DC enrollment eligibility - is that a direct-purchase can be exchanged for Bonvoy Points while an external-resale cannot, which many owners will say is no difference at all because many owners don't think exchanging for Bonvoy Points is a good usage option.)


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## sharr7 (Jun 18, 2022)

Saw this on Facebook (shocked, it's rare anything useful appears on FB, especially before TUG). Was also just shared on the Marriott boards but haven't seen it here yet so:




Seems to confirm some important speculation points: Most VSN inventory won't be available to Abound unless elected for points. 12 month availability (not 13 but not 8).

Much wording has hinted they won't hit July 1 but at least they're saying August in official communications and not just "end of summer" "third quarter" "soon" or other vague/later timeframes. With potential for continued communication before then now that we're seeing actual information, however minor, from corporate.

I see this as fairly positive and in line with expectations/hopes/speculation so far.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

sharr7 said:


> Saw this on Facebook (shocked, it's rare anything useful appears on FB, especially before TUG).


It is becoming more and more common. Facebook groups are beating TUG to the punch. Probably not unexpected, some of the Facebook groups are pretty big.


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## sharr7 (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> It is becoming more and more common. Facebook groups are beating TUG to the punch. Probably not unexpected, some of the Facebook groups are pretty big.


Perhaps - still frustrating to follow some of those groups when so many posts and responses are flat out wrong about basic information, but then there's already 80 comments all over the place. Easy to see how FB has a big disinformation problem with things far more important than timeshares hah.

Anyway happy to see more official communication from MVW. Ready to win some of those sweepstakes! lol. 1.5x rewards at your next owner's update! $5 toward ARDA on your next MF payment! 50 Bonvoy points! So many possibilities.


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## Mowogo (Jun 18, 2022)

sharr7 said:


> Perhaps - still frustrating to follow some of those groups when so many posts and responses are flat out wrong about basic information, but then there's already 80 comments all over the place. Easy to see how FB has a big disinformation problem with things far more important than timeshares hah.
> 
> Anyway happy to see more official communication from MVW. Ready to win some of those sweepstakes! lol. 1.5x rewards at your next owner's update! $5 toward ARDA on your next MF payment! 50 Bonvoy points! So many possibilities.


Don’t forget the grand prize of an Encore package at any MVW resort.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

sharr7 said:


> Perhaps - still frustrating to follow some of those groups when so many posts and responses are flat out wrong about basic information, but then there's already 80 comments all over the place. Easy to see how FB has a big disinformation problem with things far more important than timeshares hah.
> 
> Anyway happy to see more official communication from MVW. Ready to win some of those sweepstakes! lol. 1.5x rewards at your next owner's update! $5 toward ARDA on your next MF payment! 50 Bonvoy points! So many possibilities.


How about priority villa assignment on your next stay?


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## iowaguy09 (Jun 19, 2022)

sharr7 said:


> Perhaps - still frustrating to follow some of those groups when so many posts and responses are flat out wrong about basic information, but then there's already 80 comments all over the place. Easy to see how FB has a big disinformation problem with things far more important than timeshares hah.
> 
> Anyway happy to see more official communication from MVW. Ready to win some of those sweepstakes! lol. 1.5x rewards at your next owner's update! $5 toward ARDA on your next MF payment! 50 Bonvoy points! So many possibilities.


I follow this group on FB, don’t monitor it religiously, but mostly for entertainment value and for the unique info I can gleam from time to time.  I have posted several times with a recommendation and link to Tug, with a plug for the annual TUG fee being well worth it for the education to be gained.  Usually in response to some query about resale vs. direct sale, or some comment about ways to use an ownership.  The Bonvoy Elite FB groups are also helpful for some reviews and property info.


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## iowaguy09 (Jun 19, 2022)

iowaguy09 said:


> I follow this group on FB, don’t monitor it religiously, but mostly for entertainment value and for the unique info I can gleam from time to time.  I have posted several times with a recommendation and link to Tug, with a plug for the annual TUG fee being well worth it for the education to be gained.  Usually in response to some query about resale vs. direct sale, or some comment about ways to use an ownership.  The Bonvoy Elite FB groups are also helpful for some reviews and property info.


There is also a Vistana only forum on FB the same comments above apply to.  They haven’t added “Abound” to their tag yet (haha!). I have also commented on questions about the new combined program that I’m not believing anything with certainty until I see it in official writing.


----------



## chris1278 (Jun 19, 2022)

sharr7 said:


> Perhaps - still frustrating to follow some of those groups when so many posts and responses are flat out wrong about basic information, but then there's already 80 comments all over the place. Easy to see how FB has a big disinformation problem with things far more important than timeshares hah.



I really don't see the format of FB groups being of much value for discussion or learning. Nothing beats the standard forum format for something like TUG. With FB groups, threads get buried, it's difficult to track where you left off or revisit something later. I see little to no value in them.


----------



## vikingsholm (Jun 19, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> Taking a guess here but were the links that you clicked the same ones in the last sentence of the first section of the press release? The ones embedded in the sentence that says, "_For those interested in immersing themselves in the endless vacation possibilities with these brands now, follow Marriott Vacation Club®, Sheraton® Vacation Club and Westin® Vacation Club on social media?_" If so, with the sentence literally saying, "_follow [us] on social media_," why wouldn't a reader expect that those links would direct to social media sites?
> 
> [eta] I understand that you would have preferred direct links to the information that you're looking for but for their purposes it seems that getting more social media interaction is their aim, and in this day and age that's not a surprise. I think you can find a list of all the Westin and Sheraton resorts by clicking on the "Destinations" tab at vistana.com.


Yes, that's where I clicked. I'm also quite aware that I can find Vistana and Sheraton's main websites through searches. Sometimes those send you down rabbit holes though, and the proper way to market is to make it as easy as possible for you to find the relevant info.

As a marketing piece trying to get my interest and win me over, the most prominent links that my eye went directly to should not go to a FB page, and when they do, they should be separate links that clearly state they're FB. I did not even notice a mention of "social media", which really could be anyone's site, including a message board within those system's own websites that don't require joining or a log in just to read messages, but only to post them (like TUG). I just saw the highlighted links and clicked on them.

Facebook is a sewer of misinformation, intentional lies, unwanted tracking, and harmful algorithms. At a minimum, if they want to force us to use it, they should have accessible readable content that covers the main points before they require any registration or login. Twitter does this, and I sometimes read that when linked from other sites that I use and care about, if that's where additional info is located. I won't join them either though. At least I can read some of their content and comments by users if I want to, without registering.

Poor rollout, Marriott. Normally, I'm a fan, and I love the Marriott timeshares.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

sharr7 said:


> Saw this on Facebook (shocked, it's rare anything useful appears on FB, especially before TUG). Was also just shared on the Marriott boards but haven't seen it here yet so:
> 
> Seems to confirm some important speculation points: Most VSN inventory won't be available to Abound unless elected for points. 12 month availability (not 13 but not 8).



Am I the only one to see this 12 month reservation window as a red flag and an intrusion on our rights as deeded owners for access to our home deeds? First it was Flex, but Flex was small *and did not include high-demand WKORV and WKORVN oceanfronts. *Flex 12 month was a slippery slope however Flex owned a few deeds in the trust and limited to those weeks.

Abound appears to include OF weeks that owners enroll and trade and bring on the MVC owners en mass.  However, the difference is that the weeks go into separate inventory *that deeded owners cannot access and have no control over the allocation of that inventory.* So if there is an extra July 4 or whale week in Abound inventory, deeded owners cannot access that extra week but traders who do not own at this property and pay a fraction of the expensive maintenance fees can get access over owners to this week at 12 months. *This is wrong.*

Remember, these properties are not owned by DP but traded by deeded owners. *Enrolled owner associated weeks should be in the 8 month window like all other traders and available to all deeded owners at 12 months before Abound traders can have access to the week.*

For reference, HGVC does not run their program this way. (And as you know, SVN didn't historically before FLEX.) A home week is a home week. Owners get between 12 - 9 months to book. Only when the home week is not booked can others trade into the deeded resort. Same goes for the owners if they trade to other resorts or want a different unit in the same resort, they must wait until 9 months. They are very careful that weeks deposited into RCI are not the best rooms and not the best weeks to avoid lawsuits from owners.

I would like to someone who is legally-minded to review the resort by-laws to understand how traders who do not own can get access to owner priority weeks.  Abound 12 month trading may be in violation of the by-laws if there is not an underlying deed owner attached to that 12 month reservation.


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## nuwermj (Jun 19, 2022)

remowidget said:


> I was asking about Interval International internal exchanges. Do resale owners get access to the ability to book Vistana and Marriott resorts before other timeshare owners? I'm not sure if I am clear, so I found this explanation.
> 
> "When a Marriott owner deposits their week into II that week is essentially put on and internal hold for a designated amount of time. While the week is on “hold” it can only be booked by other Marriott owners who have also deposited their weeks into Interval International. The amount of time the week is kept on hold depends on how far in advance it is deposited before week’s check in date. The longest amount of time a week will be held for Marriott priority booking is 24 days. This timeframe gets shorter the closer it is to the check-in date. The shortest amount of time a week is held is 3 days."



My deeded, resale, voluntary week at Vistana Resort, Orlando gets this priority trade in II as well as a reduced exchange fee when trading to another Vistana location. I'm don't think I get it when trading to MVC locations.


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## emeryjre (Jun 19, 2022)

sharr7 said:


> Saw this on Facebook (shocked, it's rare anything useful appears on FB, especially before TUG). Was also just shared on the Marriott boards but haven't seen it here yet so:
> View attachment 58342
> 
> Seems to confirm some important speculation points: Most VSN inventory won't be available to Abound unless elected for points. 12 month availability (not 13 but not 8).
> ...


Bullet point #2 "If VSN members elect to receive Club Points.........."  As Vistana unit owners the crucial question will be the definition of "VSN members".   There is lots of speculation of what this definition will look like, but no real facts that I have been able to find.  Vistana unit owners will be watching for this definition with anticipation.


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## Venter (Jun 19, 2022)

Am I the only one to see this 12 month reservation window as a red flag and an intrusion on our rights as deeded owners for access to our home deeds? First it was Flex, but Flex was small *and did not include WKORV and WKORVN oceanfronts. *Flex 12 month was a slippery slope however Flex owned a few deeds in the trust and limited to those weeks.  This is true and at anytime if flex do acquire those weeks they can also include this in the pool 12 months out.  What could be a grey area is that if they have a few oceanfront weeks can they allocate the higher demand times to be used in flex?.  (I do not know enough but go on other threads I read when I say that those units will never come in to Flex because they are more valuable to sell again)

Abound appears to include OF weeks that owners enroll and trade and bring on the MVC owners en mass.  However, the difference is that the weeks go into separate inventory *that deeded owners cannot access and have no control over the allocation of that inventory.* So if there is an extra July 4 or whale week in Abound inventory, deeded owners cannot access that extra week but traders who do not own at this property and pay a fraction of the expensive maintenance fees can get access over owners to this week at 12 months. *This is wrong.  *I do not see a problem personally.  This is an exchange company system.  Just like II owners can book there week 12 months out and deposit it into II and it will immediately be available to other exchangers at 12 months out.  It will not be available to other owners anymore.  (Vistana does work a bit differently though in that they will put a week in that you cannot choose your week to deposit like other systems.  So if it is in Marriott exchange then it can be available to members of the exchange 12 months out just like II.  Think about somebody that chooses to rent.  This is also an exchange system but just for cash.  If that week is out it is not available to other owners anymore.  I do not hear many renters that make big bucks complain that they cannot find weeks because it is not available anymore.  As far as trading at a fraction goes, this is a misconception.  When Marriott started their points system it was thought to be more fair.  Hawaii weeks needed more points than Orlando weeks.  In essence the Hawaii week would therefore cost you more to 'trade' into. (Unlike II where people use weeks with cheap maintenance fees an lock them of to half their costs, and then trade cheaply.  A better analogy would be for people who bought mandatory weeks with cheap MF and then use Staroptions to trade into weeks in Hawaii or St John etc.  I do not see Vistana owners complain about that.)  The other side of the coin is that people can get value by booking shoulder weeks which costs less points per stay.  I think that is definitely a more fair system.  I go by the TUGG mantra - buy where you want to stay most or all of the time.  People know the risks of buying a cheap MF weak to use as a trader as the risks have been spelled out many times before (Think of the change with Disney coming over to II and everybody who bought 'cheap' weeks in RCI to trade into Disney).  VSN is an exchange network.  There was always an inherent chance that weeks would not be available at 12 months in more expensive MF properties or during event weeks.  Most complainers will be those who bought to trade 'cheaply'.  I don't believe it is anywhere in the home resort documents that people are guaranteed trades using VSN.

Remember, these properties are not owned by DP but traded by deeded owners. *Enrolled owner associated weeks should be in the 8 month window like all other traders and available to all deeded owners at 12 months before Abound traders can have access to the week.  *Owners who have not chosen to trade into there preferred 'trading network' will still be able to trade between each other just like before.  See my post above about using trading networks.

For reference, HGVC does not run their program this way. A home week is a home week. Owners get between 12 - 9 months to book. Only when the home week is not booked can others trade into the deeded resort. Same goes for the owners if they trade to other resorts or want a different unit in the same resort, they must wait until 9 months. They are very careful that weeks deposited into RCI are not the best rooms and not the best weeks to avoid lawsuits from owners.  I do not know enough about HGVC but have a few thoughts.  HGVC was conceptualized as one system. (Now they are trying to combine new systems with MAX.  Reading some TUGG posts about the new MAX system it seems much worse thought out than Abound) To make it fair owners have to be able to book first within 9-12 months and then whatever is left can be used by owners at other resorts to be booked.  However, if someone books a week at their resort for rental purchases then that would not be available to owners at other resorts at 9 months either.  Do you deposit points to do an II exchange.   If so it is probably then like Vistana currently where HGVC will give Vistana a average week within a season.  This way they can manipulate more valuable weeks to their advantage (What I mean by this is that if that value week is not booked they can then use for their own benefit like rental - this is in most T&C's that if a week is not booked within 60 days.  

I would like to someone who is legally-minded to review the resort by-laws to understand how traders who do not own can get access to owner priority weeks.  Abound 12 month trading may be in violation of the by-laws if there is not an underlying deed attached to that trade.

I really do not see the fuss as being in Abound is just using an exchange company.  I think it is fair that they will have the 12 months rule as Vistana cannot book more than 12 months out like Marriott owners can at Marriott resorts.  However, it plays both ways.  If an enrolled Vistana owner elects their week/s or points they can now book 13 months out at Marriott resorts.  So everybody 'abounds'(abinds) by the booking rules of the system.


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## CPNY (Jun 19, 2022)

iowaguy09 said:


> There is also a Vistana only forum on FB the same comments above apply to.  They haven’t added “Abound” to their tag yet (haha!). I have also commented on questions about the new combined program that I’m not believing anything with certainty until I see it in official writing.


I was blocked from a vistana only forum for recommending TUG. The admin called it a scam….. so to get even, I created my own group (petty I know) hah. I’ve seen so many misinformed owners on Facebook actually learn a bit more and change their attitude toward ownership. the major Problem with Facebook is most people don’t want to learn, they just comment negative crap without understanding how the system works. You can’t change or educate everyone on those Facebook groups. But changing a handful of attitudes is a good start.


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## remowidget (Jun 19, 2022)

nuwermj said:


> My deeded, resale, voluntary week at Vistana Resort, Orlando gets this priority tread in II as well as a reduced exchange fee when trading to another Vistana location. I'm don't think I get it when trading to MVC locations.


Thanks


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

chris1278 said:


> I really don't see the format of FB groups being of much value for discussion or learning. Nothing beats the standard forum format for something like TUG. With FB groups, threads get buried, it's difficult to track where you left off or revisit something later. I see little to no value in them.


The value I see with Facebook groups is in not necessarily what I can learn, but rather my ability in educating other owners. I don't spend as much time in those groups as I should. Simply put, not everyone is going to come to TUG. Even if they know about it. Some, it seems many, like the format of Facebook. I also think forms vs Facebook is also somewhat generational. If you started on the internet in the early days and started using traditional web forums, that is what you tend to prefer. For those that came along a little later, then it ended up being Facebook. People like a certain platform because, well, that is what they are used to and like. There are people that prefer to use Instagram but getting them to switch over to Twitter is impossible. Same with YouTube and TikTok. You can post 100 times on Facebook for people to visit TUG and they simply won't do it or if they do, they may not stick around or actively participate, they just like Facebook. Nothing necessarily wrong with that. If I, or mostly my wife, can help people on Facebook out a little bit with what they own, then that is a good thing.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

nuwermj said:


> My deeded, resale, voluntary week at Vistana Resort, Orlando gets this priority tread in II as well as a reduced exchange fee when trading to another Vistana location. I'm don't think I get it when trading to MVC locations.


You probably want to do a test trade into Marriott (without confirming). I am sure you get the discounted exchange fee when doing so.


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## nuwermj (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> You probably want to do a test trade into Marriott (without confirming). I am sure you get the discounted exchange fee when doing so.



I just tested a trade. You are correct, there is a reduced fee. Thanks for the tip.


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## dsmrp (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> You probably want to do a test trade into Marriott (without confirming). I am sure you get the discounted exchange fee when doing so.


Yes, I have gotten the discounted exchange fee when I traded a Vistana for Marriott. But I think Vistana's preference window is still after Marriott for Marriott units.


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## Hankmoon (Jun 19, 2022)

Venter said:


> I really do not see the fuss as being in Abound is just using an exchange company.  I think it is fair that they will have the 12 months rule as Vistana cannot book more than 12 months out like Marriott owners can at Marriott resorts.  However, it plays both ways.  If an enrolled Vistana owner elects their week/s or points they can now book 13 months out at Marriott resorts.  So everybody 'abounds'(abinds) by the booking rules of the system.



Yes!


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## remowidget (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Am I the only one to see this 12 month reservation window as a red flag and an intrusion on our rights as deeded owners for access to our home deeds? First it was Flex, but Flex was small *and did not include high-demand WKORV and WKORVN oceanfronts. *Flex 12 month was a slippery slope however Flex owned a few deeds in the trust and limited to those weeks.
> 
> Abound appears to include OF weeks that owners enroll and trade and bring on the MVC owners en mass.  However, the difference is that the weeks go into separate inventory *that deeded owners cannot access and have no control over the allocation of that inventory.* So if there is an extra July 4 or whale week in Abound inventory, deeded owners cannot access that extra week but traders who do not own at this property and pay a fraction of the expensive maintenance fees can get access over owners to this week at 12 months. *This is wrong.*
> 
> ...


I think they did 12 months to prevent confusion and outrage. I don't think it matters though, they will be using different buckets of inventory that us Vistana owners would not have access too anyways. An an example, there almost always seems to be availability through Bonvoy that isn't available through Vistana.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

Venter said:


> Abound appears to include OF weeks that owners enroll and trade and bring on the MVC owners en mass.  However, the difference is that the weeks go into separate inventory *that deeded owners cannot access and have no control over the allocation of that inventory.* So if there is an extra July 4 or whale week in Abound inventory, deeded owners cannot access that extra week but traders who do not own at this property and pay a fraction of the expensive maintenance fees can get access over owners to this week at 12 months. *This is wrong.  *I do not see a problem personally.  This is an exchange company system.  Just like II owners can book there week 12 months out and deposit it into II and it will immediately be available to other exchangers at 12 months out.  It will not be available to other owners anymore.  (Vistana does work a bit differently though in that they will put a week in that you cannot choose your week to deposit like other systems.  So if it is in Marriott exchange then it can be available to members of the exchange 12 months out just like II.  Think about somebody that chooses to rent.  This is also an exchange system but just for cash.  If that week is out it is not available to other owners anymore.  I do not hear many renters that make big bucks complain that they cannot find weeks because it is not available anymore.  As far as trading at a fraction goes, this is a misconception.  When Marriott started their points system it was thought to be more fair.  Hawaii weeks needed more points than Orlando weeks.  In essence the Hawaii week would therefore cost you more to 'trade' into. (Unlike II where people use weeks with cheap maintenance fees an lock them of to half their costs, and then trade cheaply.  A better analogy would be for people who bought mandatory weeks with cheap MF and then use Staroptions to trade into weeks in Hawaii or St John etc.  I do not see Vistana owners complain about that.)  The other side of the coin is that people can get value by booking shoulder weeks which costs less points per stay.  I think that is definitely a more fair system.  I go by the TUGG mantra - buy where you want to stay most or all of the time.  People know the risks of buying a cheap MF weak to use as a trader as the risks have been spelled out many times before (Think of the change with Disney coming over to II and everybody who bought 'cheap' weeks in RCI to trade into Disney).  VSN is an exchange network.  There was always an inherent chance that weeks would not be available at 12 months in more expensive MF properties or during event weeks.  Most complainers will be those who bought to trade 'cheaply'.  I don't believe it is anywhere in the home resort documents that people are guaranteed trades using VSN.
> 
> Remember, these properties are not owned by DP but traded by deeded owners. *Enrolled owner associated weeks should be in the 8 month window like all other traders and available to all deeded owners at 12 months before Abound traders can have access to the week.  *Owners who have not chosen to trade into there preferred 'trading network' will still be able to trade between each other just like before.  See my post above about using trading networks.



Nope. If an owner rents their deeded week or offers a guest certificate that is different. Those are owner deeded rights that came with the property.

Nowhere in the Vistana system CC&Rs is exchange trading legally described as an owner deeded right to offer their VOI on par with deeded owners. Abound Exchange is trading - at which time the owner gives up their deeded rights to the week and they become a trader. Similarly that owner has no priority rights to a specific property in a trade.

FYI...the HGVC system treats traders as a lower priority than deeded rights. And even their new Max system preserves those rights with Max traders only able to trade (DRI for HGVC) at 6 months after the 12 - 9 month deed owner window and the 9 - 6 month HGVC trading window. So *deeded rights are preserved. *Primarily because they know they will get sued so they tread carefully with RCI deposits. In fact when we RCI traded into HGVC the front desk told us that they have a specific unit they designate for RCI traders - it is a the worst room on the floor next to the noisy elevator that no owner would want.

The people being screwed by this Abound exchange system are the deeded owners at high demand resorts who want to use their units and the SVN traders who can only trade at 8 months.  This is a devaluation and violation of deeded owner rights. Abound needs to make trading for enrolled weeks consistent with SVN trading.


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## emeryjre (Jun 19, 2022)

I can book 13 months out at Marriot simply by choosing to exchange for Club Points??  That will make the Marriott owners really happy.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

emeryjre said:


> I can book 13 months out at Marriot simply by choosing to exchange for Club Points??  That will make the Marriott owners really happy.


Yes, but they can do the same into those same Marriott resorts.


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## remowidget (Jun 19, 2022)

emeryjre said:


> I can book 13 months out at Marriot simply by choosing to exchange for Club Points??  That will make the Marriott owners really happy.


What you are exchanging into ClubPoints will become available to Marriott owners.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Nope. If an owner rents their deeded week or offers a guest certificate that is different. Those are owner deeded rights that came with the property.
> 
> Nowhere in the Vistana system CC&Rs is exchange trading legally described as an owner deeded right to offer their VOI on par with deeded owners. Abound Exchange is trading - at which time the owner gives up their deeded rights to the week and they become a trader. Similarly that owner has no priority rights to a specific property in a trade.
> 
> ...


Essentially when you are trading you are giving up your deeded right to the exchange company to do with it as they please. So if you have the ability to book your home resort at 12 months, when you deposit you give the exchange company that right instead. At least that is how MVC looks at it.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Essentially when you are trading you are giving up your deeded right to the exchange company to do with it as they please. So if you have the ability to book your home resort at 12 months, when you deposit you give the exchange company that right instead. At least that is how MVC looks at it.



and this is why Abound is a disaster for deeded owners if they offer reservations from enrolled trades at 12 months.

I doubt the exchange trading companies like II access the best weeks. Most of those are also smaller units with worse views, locations. Hard to get a 2 bdrm. That's how exchange trading works. Those owners gave up their right to the best weeks and views by depositing into a trading system.  Why should those rights automatically be available to an exchange company?  Enrolled weeks deposited into Abound should be no different; during low weeks and the OF on the first floor that stare at the restaurant at WKORVN that no deeded owner wants. That is only fair to owners who want to use their week as intended and legally deeded.

There is a strong legal reason HGVC is not going there. HGVC is also not (yet) into the points recycling game so little incentive. MVC may be open to a lawsuit because their business model could also be an indicator of ill intent toward deeded owner rights. Perhaps this is by design so they can get all those deeds ROFRed into their high MF trust system and run their points recycling game? If so, very sad.


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## remowidget (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Hard to get a 2 bdrm.


If you want a 2 bedroom, you need to look at interval resorts with 2 bedrooms. If a 2 bedroom is really two units combined through a lockoff, you are correct it will be very difficult to trade into a lockoff. Why would someone deposit a lockoff when they can deposit them separately and get two trades?

Quite a few Marriott locations don't have 1 bedroom units.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

@remowidget Good point. All the WKORV and WKORVN units are lockoffs so it would be next to impossible to get a 2 bdrm at these resorts in II. I believe Nanea 2 bdrms do not lockoff.  Not sure about St John layouts but they would have all the same deeded rights issues stated above.

Breakage from Abound mid-week starts and lockoffs could also block deeded 2 bdrm owners from access to their owned weeks during peak season. 2 bdrm owners should have first rights to those units. This is why Abound trades for enrolled weeks at 12 months is a very bad idea. This is also a squeeze to the SVN system who can only trade at 8 months. Creates little incentive to trade SOs if all the good inventory is gone at 12 months via Abound.  Again I question MVC's motive. This all seems like a greedy money grab to force VSN owners to upgrade.

Vistana owners need to speak up about these issues.


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## divenski (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @remowidget Good point. All the WKORV and WKORVN units are lockoffs so it would be next to impossible to get a 2 bdrm at these resorts in II. I believe Nanea 2 bdrms do not lockoff.  Not sure about St John layouts but they would have all the same deeded rights issues stated above.
> 
> Breakage from mid-week starts and lockoffs could also block deeded 2 bdrm owners from access to their owned weeks during peak season. 2 bdrm owners should have first rights to those units. This is why Abound trades for enrolled weeks at 12 months is a very bad idea. This is also a squeeze to the SVN system who can only trade at 8 months. Creates little incentive to trade SOs if all the good inventory is gone at 12 months via Abound.
> 
> Vistana owners need to speak up about these issues.



I agree with both points, but the first one was well discussed and feared when the MVC point system was introduced in 2010. If there were any legal challenges, they didn't go anywhere. As a deeded week owner in MVC, I can't say that I have seen a difference in availability. But it is a concern, and the galling part is that the sales people sometimes exploit this concern and have the nerve to say that a deeded week owner needs to buy trust points just to essentially preserve all the rights they had before 2010.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

This is the view Abound enrolled traders and II should get during peak weeks after deeded owners make their reservations.

This is from View from the Balcony Thread. WKORVN 1st floor OF.


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## emeryjre (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Yes, but they can do the same into those same Marriott resorts.


Yes, but don't they have a set of requirements such as two units at the same resort, Have a certain ownership level, etc., etc.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

emeryjre said:


> Yes, but don't they have a set of requirements such as two units at the same resort, Have a certain ownership level, etc., etc.


13 month bookings is based on ownership level in Abound. It will be the same for VSN or MVC owners. Not all VSN owners will have 13 month booking in Abound either.


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## DavidnRobin (Jun 19, 2022)

sharr7 said:


> Saw this on Facebook (shocked, it's rare anything useful appears on FB, especially before TUG). Was also just shared on the Marriott boards but haven't seen it here yet so:
> View attachment 58342
> 
> Seems to confirm some important speculation points: Most VSN inventory won't be available to Abound unless elected for points. 12 month availability (not 13 but not 8).
> ...



I saw this on FB as well. Not sure why Chris didn’t post here.

This whole scare of booking at 13 months at VSN resorts is a red herring (object is sell more based on misinformation).
They can’t book what they don’t own, and not more than what they own. They only book what they own or turned in by Owners, but Owners can’t turn in before 12 months.

The real risk is what happens at 8 months.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk on


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## remowidget (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> 13 month bookings is based on ownership level in Abound. It will be the same for VSN or MVC owners. Not all VSN owners will have 13 month booking in Abound either.


According to the Marriott benefits at a glance pdf, all Destination point owners can book at 13 months.


			https://www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/common/cms/mvc/pdfs/owners/Owner-Benefit-Level.pdf


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

DP can book starting at 13 months but perhaps is it like II trading inventory that may not be dropped into the system until later?


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## Red elephant (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Am I the only one to see this 12 month reservation window as a red flag and an intrusion on our rights as deeded owners for access to our home deeds? First it was Flex, but Flex was small *and did not include high-demand WKORV and WKORVN oceanfronts. *Flex 12 month was a slippery slope however Flex owned a few deeds in the trust and limited to those weeks.
> 
> Abound appears to include OF weeks that owners enroll and trade and bring on the MVC owners en mass.  However, the difference is that the weeks go into separate inventory *that deeded owners cannot access and have no control over the allocation of that inventory.* So if there is an extra July 4 or whale week in Abound inventory, deeded owners cannot access that extra week but traders who do not own at this property and pay a fraction of the expensive maintenance fees can get access over owners to this week at 12 months. *This is wrong.*
> 
> ...


I am so confused. Trying to follow this discussion. If you enroll your week in Abound then it is available at 13 months to be booked with Abound points. How does that infringe on week deeded rights? 
The only thing I see happening is that 8 month staroptions booking will be reduced. But most high demand resorts are not available that much anyway because their owners use it or rent it out.


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## Red elephant (Jun 19, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> I saw this on FB as well. Not sure why Chris didn’t post here.
> 
> This whole scare of booking at 13 months at VSN resorts is a red herring (object is sell more based on misinformation).
> They can’t book what they don’t own, and not more than what they own. They only book what they own or turned in by Owners, but Owners can’t turn in before 12 months.
> ...


This is what I thought too.


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## Red elephant (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> DP can book starting at 13 months but perhaps is it like II trading inventory that may not be dropped into the system until later?


Yeah but they can only book what is available in Abound. An owner from Vistana has to enroll their week in Abound to make that available or else only unsold , ROFR units will be in there at 13 months.


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## Red elephant (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> 13 month bookings is based on ownership level in Abound. It will be the same for VSN or MVC owners. Not all VSN owners will have 13 month booking in Abound either.


I believe if you enroll your week you can book at 13 months for 7 days no matter your elite level.  Higher levels can book 1-7 days at 13 months .


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> I saw this on FB as well. Not sure why Chris didn’t post here.


I think it may have been posted in another group first and then shared in his group? I also think it was posted here on TUG before it was shared by Chris in the FB group.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

Red elephant said:


> I believe if you enroll your week you can book at 13 months for 7 days no matter your elite level.  Higher levels can book 1-7 days at 13 months .


You can, but the "Owner" level has to pay a 10% point premium to book 7+ nights at 13 months. Select can book 7+ nights without the premium and Executive and above can book 1+ nights at 13 months.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> This whole scare of booking at 13 months at VSN resorts is a red herring (object is sell more based on misinformation).
> They can’t book what they don’t own, and not more than what they own. They only book what they own or turned in by Owners, but Owners can’t turn in before 12 months.
> 
> The real risk is what happens at 8 months.


Exactly. And also people need to keep in mind that there will be a disincentive to use Abound Club Points to book certain high demand periods. Being that those high demand periods will have very high point values. Say an OF WKORVN gets 8,300 points, well it might take 10,000 or more to actually book that same OF WKORVN in whale season.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

Red elephant said:


> I am so confused. Trying to follow this discussion. If you enroll your week in Abound then it is available at 13 months to be booked with Abound points. How does that infringe on week deeded rights?
> The only thing I see happening is that 8 month staroptions booking will be reduced. But most high demand resorts are not available that much anyway because their owners use it or rent it out.


If you enroll your Vistana week in Abound and elect Club Points, then it will be available to other Abound members to make reservations at 12 months (not 13).


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## timsi (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Am I the only one to see this 12 month reservation window as a red flag and an intrusion on our rights as deeded owners for access to our home deeds? First it was Flex, but Flex was small *and did not include high-demand WKORV and WKORVN oceanfronts. *Flex 12 month was a slippery slope however Flex owned a few deeds in the trust and limited to those weeks.
> 
> Abound appears to include OF weeks that owners enroll and trade and bring on the MVC owners en mass.  However, the difference is that the weeks go into separate inventory *that deeded owners cannot access and have no control over the allocation of that inventory.* So if there is an extra July 4 or whale week in Abound inventory, deeded owners cannot access that extra week but traders who do not own at this property and pay a fraction of the expensive maintenance fees can get access over owners to this week at 12 months. *This is wrong.*
> 
> ...


You are 100% correct, any unit available at 12 months in any exchange system (internal or external) would infringe the rights of the owners at that resort who are supposed to have exclusive rights  to compete for any unit at that resort for four full months. Additionally, it creates a competitive disadvantage for VSN so basically all Vistana owners will be affected if Marriott decides to break that rule.


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## remowidget (Jun 19, 2022)

timsi said:


> You are 100% correct, any unit available at 12 months in any exchange system (internal or external) would infringe the rights of the owners at that resort who are supposed to have exclusive rights  to compete for any unit at that resort for four full months. Additionally, it creates a competitive disadvantage for VSN so basically all Vistana owners will be affected if Marriott decides to break that rule.


Owners only have exclusive rights for booking units in their pool of ownership, not all nights in the resort.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

remowidget said:


> Owners only have exclusive rights for booking units in their pool of ownership, not all nights in the resort.


Exactly. People may opt to convert to Bonvoy points ahead of the use year or even for Vistana owned inventory. Vistana has just as much right to book those weeks they control inside the 21-8 month window.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

The problem is you cannot suddenly devise a new program to artificially limit the ownership pool when prime weeks and views are available via Abound to non-deeded owners during the Owner window. Yes, a week should be made available in Abound if that is what the enrolled owner wants to do  - but why not available at 8 months after deeded owners have made their selections? This is how SVN and HGVC operate.

Otherwise what else can they cook up to limit and devalue the deeded owner pool?   MVC is also infringing on the ownership access pool when Abound creates lock-offs and mid-week breakage. It is one thing when Flex was small. But what about the masses of MVC in Abound trades? When do deeded rights prevail? 

And where is creating a trading system for non-owner priority at 12 months allowed for in the CC&Rs?


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## JIMinNC (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Exactly. And also people need to keep in mind that there will be a disincentive to use Abound Club Points to book certain high demand periods. Being that those high demand periods will have very high point values. Say an OF WKORVN gets 8,300 points, well it might take 10,000 or more to actually book that same OF WKORVN in whale season.



I don't see where the skim is a disincentive to use Abound, if you want to go to a resort in Abound instead of your home resort. How does the theoretical 1,700 point skim used in your example have significant impact on whether the owner of the example OF WKORVN chooses to elect that week for Abound ClubPoints? If that owner wants to go to WKORVN, wouldn't they just opt to use their owned week? Wouldn't the only scenario that Abound point value is relevant be when that owner wanted to go somewhere other than WKORVN? In that case, the 10,000 cost of booking WKORVN is irrelevant to them, but what is relevant is the 8,300 ClubPoints they get to book elsewhere in the system. If the 8300 points they get allows them to go where they want to go (let's say Aruba), then that should be the only incentive they would seem to need. In fact, those high value weeks might come close to getting two weeks in Hilton Head in the spring or fall, so that becomes another incentive for owners of high value weeks to elect.

It's exactly like when we make the decision on what to do with our enrolled Waiohai and Maui Ocean Club weeks. We would only elect those for Points if we didn't want to go there in a given use year or maybe if we wanted to elect for points in order to book a 1BR in Lahaina/Napili towers in lieu of our 2BR in the original towers.


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## timsi (Jun 19, 2022)

remowidget said:


> Owners only have exclusive rights for booking units in their pool of ownership, not all nights in the resort.


Your interpretation would also mean that we can start trading in VSN at 12 months, in the end both Abound and VSN are exchange platforms. 

This is not how I read the governing documents : " Home Resort Float Period means the period during which all Network Members owning VOIs at a particular Home
Resort have the exclusive right to compete to reserve the use of Vacation Periods within their Season and Unit type at their Home Resort"


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## DavidnRobin (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I think it may have been posted in another group first and then shared in his group? I also think it was posted here on TUG before it was shared by Chris in the FB group.



Must have missed it.

The amount of misinformation and lack of ownership knowledge on FB is amazing.

On the topic of usage as a WKORV owner (as a Majority of resort reservation desirability) - let’s put it this way…
Usage of a deeded week usage of my WKORV VOI during the HomeResort period is legally mine and must be made available to me during weeks 1-50.
If not, due to nefarious usage by Marriott, then they open the open themselves to a simple Legal action (which I believe they will not) and transparency in inventory. A simple look at reservations made at WKORV/N OF (n=12 and n=24 and n=158?) would make it easily transparent - especially since OF was not part of Flex.

So it is only those VOIs owned by them (outright and converted to DC), and the OF Owners that exchanged to SOs or the for proposed annual DC conversion - the rest of the weeks are owned by the Owners. I suspect these exchanges are more likely for WKORVN OF than the south resort.

If I make attempts to reserve our WKORV OFD and nothing is available for making off season reservations (like we do) - then expect shit to hit the fan. Starting here and by me.

But, I do not expect this - why would they risk it? They certainly can use the migration as a reason and make satisfactory arrangements, but post-migration? I do not think so - as a exposed (equity and bonds) corporation they risk too much.

Will they take it to a border that benefits them? (Like reserving the premier weeks). No doubt.

This is why I expect very little 13 month trading into WKORV/N OFs.
IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## timsi (Jun 19, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> This is why I expect very little 13 month trading into WKORV/N OFs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I thought they made it clear, only 12 months reservations in Abound at the Vistana resorts.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> *Usage of a deeded week usage of my WKORV VOI during the HomeResort period is legally mine and must be made available to me during weeks 1-50.
> If not, due to nefarious usage by Marriott, then they open the open themselves to a simple Legal action *(which I believe they will not) and transparency in inventory. A simple look at reservations made at WKORV/N OF (n=12 and n=24 and n=158?) would make it easily transparent - especially since OF was not part of Flex.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Well said! We many not know if Marriott is nefarious but we do know these are artificial boundaries set after the fact by a profit loving business. If we let them get away with this, what else will they concoct to limit our rightful ownership?


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

timsi said:


> I thought they made it clear, only 12 months reservations in Abound at the Vistana resorts.



12 months is still problematic if Abound exchange system makes enrolled-owner trades available to non-owners at 12 months competing with deeded owners and limiting the 1 - 50 owner pool. Should be 8 months on par with VSN with the leftovers after owners have made their selection. See my prior posts.


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## timsi (Jun 19, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> If I make attempts to reserve our WKORV OFD and nothing is available for making off season reservations (like we do) - then expect shit to hit the fan. Starting here and by me.



The problem is that it is hard to assess if they bend the rules in a smart way. No units available at midnight? Yes, easy to catch but that sounds like an amateur move. But what if they only make available fewer (or a lot  fewer) units of a particular week? You will never know.


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## timsi (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> 12 months is still problematic if Abound makes enrolled-owner trades available to non-owners at 12 months competing with deeded owners and limiting the 1 - 50 owner pool. Should be 8 months on par with VSN. See my prior posts.


I agree with you, I was just referring to that part of the comment, I though we had already clarified through official sources that there would be no  Vistana reservation in Abound at 13 months.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> 12 months is still problematic if Abound exchange system makes enrolled-owner trades available to non-owners at 12 months competing with deeded owners and limiting the 1 - 50 owner pool. Should be 8 months on par with VSN with the leftovers after owners have made their selection. See my prior posts.


But doing this would then technically give Vistana deeded weeks owner a significant advantage. As an example, right now you have 100 owners competing for 100 reservations. Have 25 of those owners elect Club Points and you now have 75 owner completing for 100 reservations.


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## Red elephant (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> You can, but the "Owner" level has to pay a 10% point premium to book 7+ nights at 13 months. Select can book 7+ nights without the premium and Executive and above can book 1+ nights at 13 months.


I did not know about the 10% point premium!! Thx


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## Red elephant (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> If you enroll your Vistana week in Abound and elect Club Points, then it will be available to other Abound members to make reservations at 12 months (not 13).


Wait now I am really confused I thought when you exchange into DP now Abound is 13 months booking window?


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## timsi (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> But doing this would then technically give Vistana deeded weeks owner a significant advantage. As an example, right now you have 100 owners competing for 100 reservations. Have 25 of those owners elect Club Points and you now have 75 owner completing for 100 reservations.


That is exactly how it works in VSN so why should Abound be different?


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## kozykritter (Jun 19, 2022)

Red elephant said:


> Wait now I am really confused I thought when you exchange into DP now Abound is 13 months booking window?


It's potentially 13 months based upon elite level in the MVC system. The lowest level, Owner, can book it 10 months out unless they pay a 10% point premium to book seven nights+ at 13 months out. All the levels above that have 13 month booking without premium. MVC recognition levels will be applied to all Vistana owners enrolling in Abound and possibly Vistana owners regardless of enrollment.


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## remowidget (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> But doing this would then technically give Vistana deeded weeks owner a significant advantage. As an example, right now you have 100 owners competing for 100 reservations. Have 25 of those owners elect Club Points and you now have 75 owner completing for 100 reservations.


I'm not following this whole line. There are different pools of inventory.

25 elect club points. Then 25 are competing for 25 reservations in the club pool.
75 are competing for 75 reservations in the Vistana Pool.

Spread it out further:

25 elect club points. Then 25 are competing for 25 reservations in the club pool.
10 convert to Bonvoy points, Bonvoy has 10 weeks to sell or redeem for points.
15 deposit into Interval.  Then 15 are competing for 15 reservations in Interval.
50 competing for 50 reservations in the Vistana Pool.

The inventory isn't going to be in two pools at once.


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## remowidget (Jun 19, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> The real risk is what happens at 8 months.


Besides fear and sales lies, where has 8 months been mentioned?

8 months is only a Vistana thing.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> But doing this would then technically give Vistana deeded weeks owner a significant advantage. As an example, right now you have 100 owners competing for 100 reservations. Have 25 of those owners elect Club Points and you now have 75 owner completing for 100 reservations.



What is wrong with this? The problem is MVC creates artificial barriers and you cannot rely on them to get this right. What if there are 20 VOIs during July 4 and owners want all those weeks? They should have first rights to all of those VOIs.

Let deeded owners decide the weeks they want out of the owner pool. They cannot take more than the 75 weeks they own. Then release the 25 balance. That's how VSN and HGVC works. It protects owner rights. And it is fair.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

remowidget said:


> I'm not following this whole line. There are different pools of inventory.
> 
> 25 elect club points. Then 25 are competing for 25 reservations in the club pool.
> 75 are competing for 75 reservations in the Vistana Pool.
> ...


My response was to those that don't think or realize there are multiple pools of inventory. Your line of though is the same as mine. My example was just one pool of inventory but with one type of member being restricted based on them depositing their week to Abound.


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## remowidget (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> What is wrong with this? The problem is MVC creates artificial barriers and you cannot rely on them to get this right. What if there are 20 VOIs during July 4 and owners want all those weeks? They should have first rights to all of those weeks.
> 
> Let deeded owners decide the weeks they want out of the owner pool. They cannot take more than the 75 weeks they own. Then release the 25 balance. That's how VSN and HGVC works. It protects owner rights. And it is fair.


So if Vistana/Marriott own 20% of the weeks in a given resort, you think that they should take only the worst weeks that are left after individual owners have booked?

Other people seem to think that Vistana/Marriott take all of the good weeks leaving nothing for individual owners.

Is there any proof of any of this? Is it just fear?


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Let deeded owners decide the weeks they want out of the owner pool. They cannot take more than the 75 weeks they own. Then release the 25 balance. That's how VSN and HGVC works. It protects owner rights. And it is fair.


But this is the exact same thing. In what you are saying it doesn't matter really if you release the 25 fourth of July weeks at month 12 or month 8. Each has access to their own inventory.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

remowidget said:


> Is there any proof of any of this? Is it just fear?


It is mostly fear. Our experience before Marriott introduced the program initially in 2010 was that certain weeks at our home resort were hard to book at the 13/12 month marks. We own Grande Vista. After DC rolled out and to today pretty much every week is available, with a few exception, every single week is available to book with only a few checkin dates booked up. So in our example, it became easier to make home resort reservations instead of harder.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

remowidget said:


> So if Vistana/Marriott own 20% of the weeks in a given resort, you think that they should take only the worst weeks that are left after individual owners have booked?
> 
> Other people seem to think that Vistana/Marriott take all of the good weeks leaving nothing for individual owners.
> 
> Is there any proof of any of this? Is it just fear?



You are raising a different issue about  ownership types. WKORV resorts are close to sold out so the point is moot for these resorts. They cannot do much.

My comments pertain to owned weeks with non-owners trading in when owners are artificially blocked from access to all available deeded VOIs.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

The 75 owners should have access to all 20 VOIs. It would leave 0 VOIs for July 4 week but 20 VOIs on other dates for Abound traders. That's how it works today with SOs. Why shouldn't owners have advantage? We pay the bills and paid a premium for such rights. No separate inventory except for different owner types.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> We pay the bills and paid a premium for such rights. No separate inventory except for different owner types.


Didn't the other owners that deposited also pay the bills and a premium? They just opted to give up their ownership right to Abound in exchange for Club Points.

I am not saying you are right or wrong, just different ways to do this and if Abound went your route, it would severely impact the quality of their product. The only option to prevent them from doing such is litigation.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

timsi said:


> That is exactly how it works in VSN so why should Abound be different?


VSN and Abound work fundamentally different. Deposit into VSN is really a passive action. You don't make an active decision to deposit like you won't in Abound. I am not necessarily saying it should or shouldn't be different. Just stating reasons why it can be different.


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## remowidget (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The 75 owners should have access to all 20 VOIs. It would leave 0 VOIs for July 4 week but 20 VOIs on other dates for Abound traders. That's how it works today. No separate inventory except for different owner types.


Where can you show me that it works that way?

I suspect if Vistana/Marriott own 20% of the floating weeks in a resort, they get 20% of the July 4th weeks. That would be the neutral/fair thing for them to do. They are paying the maintenance on their ownership.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Didn't the other owners that deposited also pay the bills and a premium? They just opted to give up their ownership right to Abound in exchange for Club Points.
> 
> I am not saying you are right or wrong, just different ways to do this and if Abound went your route, it would severely impact the quality of their product. The only option to prevent them from doing such is litigation.



Exactly! They surrendered their ownership right. Why does that surrender allow non-owners the right to preferential weeks that owners have access to in the current system just because MVC has concocted a way to make more money by artificially limiting deeded owner pools.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Exactly! They surrendered their ownership right. Why does that surrender allow non-owners the right to preferential weeks that owners have access to in the current system just because MVC has concocted a way to make more money by limiting deeded owner pools.


Marriott seems to beleive the reservation rights transfer with the week, and don't necessarily belong to the owner of the week. I am not in a position to determine if they are right or wrong.


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## byeloe (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Exactly! They surrendered their ownership right. Why does that surrender allow non-owners the right to preferential weeks that owners have access to in the current system just because MVC has concocted a way to make more money by artificially limiting deeded owner pools.


I don't see the difference, if the owner books a July 4th week and then rents it out, it is still gone and a non-owner will be using it


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## remowidget (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The 75 owners should have access to all 20 VOIs. It would leave 0 VOIs for July 4 week but 20 VOIs on other dates for Abound traders. That's how it works today with SOs. Why shouldn't owners have advantage? We pay the bills and paid a premium for such rights. No separate inventory except for different owner types.


Here is proof it doesn't work that way


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

byeloe said:


> I don't see the difference, if the owner books a July 4th week and then rents it out, it is still gone and a non-owner will be using it


Huge difference. That is a deeded right that was obtained upon purchase. Owners select the renter and are still legally liable for any damages occurred because the deeded VOI rights have not been surrendered. It remains legal deeded usage of their week.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

remowidget said:


> Here is proof it doesn't work that way



What does this prove?


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## byeloe (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Huge difference. That is a deeded right that was obtained upon purchase. Owners select the renter and are still legally liable for any damages occurred because the deeded VOI rights have not been surrendered. It remains legal deeded usage of their week.


I didn't know that the owner was still liable.  What about when one had to make the reservation before depositing in interval?


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## remowidget (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> What does this prove?


It proves that owners don't currently get all of the best weeks and there are different pools of points.


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## remowidget (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> What does this prove?


Where are you getting your information from? Abound hasn't even been been released yet.


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## timsi (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> But this is the exact same thing. In what you are saying it doesn't matter really if you release the 25 fourth of July weeks at month 12 or month 8. Each has access to their own inventory.


In practice it is the same thing. The moment you make a reservation through VSN, you lose you home week. The rest is semantics. The are both exchanges and should respect the rules of the Vistana resorts and they should both trade at 8 months.


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## timsi (Jun 19, 2022)

remowidget said:


> It proves that owners don't currently get all of the best weeks and there are different pools of points.


It proves absolutely nothing, this is less than two weeks away. We are discussing about inventory at 12 and 8 months. 

But if you do have proof that the owners do not currently get the best weeks, bring it on! Many would love to have a discussion with Marriott about it.


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## remowidget (Jun 19, 2022)

timsi said:


> It proves absolutely nothing, this is less than two weeks away. We are discussing about inventory at 12 and 8 months.
> 
> But if you do have proof that the owners do not currently get the best weeks, bring it on! Many would love to have a discussion with Marriott about it.


Actually thus thread is supposed to be about Abound which hasn't even been released yet.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

timsi said:


> It proves absolutely nothing, this is less than two weeks away. We are discussing about inventory at 12 and 8 months.
> 
> But if you do have proof that the owners do not currently get the best weeks, bring it on! Many would love to have a discussion with Marriott about it.


There is Maui availability on Marriott.com for stays through March 25, 2023 at WKORV S/N. That is still in the 12-8 month home resort window and March is pretty prime time in Maui.


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## timsi (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> There is Maui availability on Marriott.com for stays through March 25, 2023 at WKORV S/N. That is still in the 12-8 month home resort window and March is pretty prime time in Maui.


In any case, those are not exchanges. You can also rent your own week as soon as you make a reservation.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

timsi said:


> In any case, those are not exchanges. You can also rent your own week as soon as you make a reservation.


That isn't what you asked though. You said "_But if you do have proof that the owners do not currently get the best weeks, bring it on!_" So there it is...


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## daviator (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> There is Maui availability on Marriott.com for stays through March 25, 2023 at WKORV S/N. That is still in the 12-8 month home resort window and March is pretty prime time in Maui.


Availability in Marriott.com is kind of a red herring.  The inventory that probably/potentially goes to Marriott to be rented for cash includes much of the developer-owned inventory, weeks that are traded in for Bonvoy points, maybe weeks that have been foreclosed upon and taken back by the HOA (and not yet sold back to MVC) and maybe unreserved inventory inside of the last minute timeframe where MVC/Vistana has the contractual right to use/monetize that inventory. im pretty sure that developer-owned and HOA-owned inventory does not go into the StarOptions pool or the home resort pool.  But maybe much of it will go into the Abound pool.  That’s an open question, I think. (Also, some of that unsold inventory is used for Encore packages and similar sales inducements.)

In other words, there is a whole lot of inventory which is not owned by end-purchasers and is available to be monetized for cash rentals. Now the burning question is how do they decide which particular dates are theirs to rent?  I don’t think any of us know with certainty, but I do think it would be fair for them to take a basically even percentage of each day of the year, based on how much of that inventory they control.  So if they own/control 5% of the inventory, then they get 5% of the inventory for January 1, 5% for January 2, etc.  And maybe that's how they do it.

As for the last-minute inventory, which becomes theirs at – I forget, 2 months? – they would obviously get access to those nights as they come inside of the last-minute period and are otherwise unreserved.  It seems unlikely that there would be last minute unreserved inventory at peak times, but there likely is at slower times.


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## timsi (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> That isn't what you asked though. You said "_But if you do have proof that the owners do not currently get the best weeks, bring it on!_" So there it is...


I was not asking specifically for proof from Marriott.com and you probably know my comment was tongue in cheek and I was not expecting for you or anybody else to come with actual proof.


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## timsi (Jun 19, 2022)

daviator said:


> Now the burning question is how do they decide which particular dates are theirs to rent?  I don’t think any of us know with certainty, but I do think it would be fair for them to take a basically even percentage of each day of the year, based on how much of that inventory they control.  So if they own/control 5% of the inventory, then they get 5% of the inventory for January 1, 5% for January 2, etc.  *And maybe that's how they do it.*


Maybe, but corporations are supposed to maximize their profits so they may also  keep a little bit more of the high demand weeks for themselves.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 20, 2022)

remowidget said:


> Here is proof it doesn't work that way



This could have been a developer owned week or owner Bonvoy exchange.  We will never know. Regardless it's a classic example of self-dealing by the developer


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## DavidnRobin (Jun 20, 2022)

remowidget said:


> Besides fear and sales lies, where has 8 months been mentioned?
> 
> 8 months is only a Vistana thing.



Because unlike the limitations that come with HomeResort availability (Owners reserving their weeks at 12-8 months) reducing availability by non-Owners (as discussed), Marriott owners now can get at VSN inventory at 8 months using DC points. They will pay a premium, but still will have access. This will mean more people trying to access prime resorts.

12-8 month inventory at high demand properties (Maui) for non-HomeResort owners (Marriott) is only going to be eligible for those HR owners that exchanged out of their HR. The rest of inventory is controlled by HR owners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alexadeparis (Jun 20, 2022)

timsi said:


> You are 100% correct, any unit available at 12 months in any exchange system (internal or external) would infringe the rights of the owners at that resort who are supposed to have exclusive rights  to compete for any unit at that resort for four full months. Additionally, it creates a competitive disadvantage for VSN so basically all Vistana owners will be affected if Marriott decides to break that rule.


I don’t understand what you are saying here. Let’s say there are 5 units available at WKORV. Let’s look at 5 owners. Owner A selects their home week for personal use. Owner B selects their home week to rent out. Owner C decides to deposit into II. Owner D decides to wait until 8 months to use staroptions somewhere else, making a unit theoretically available in WKORV for use by a VSN member. Owner E decides to elect an Abound exchange so he can go to a new Marriott resort he’s never seen, making 1 unit available in Abound for which he will get a vacation unit in exchange. 5 units, 5 owners, 5 uses. How does one owner exchanging into Abound reduce anything for anyone else? He’s making use of his unit. He has the right to do anything he wants with it, including reserve the unit and not show up, which would NOT affect the use of yours.


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## timsi (Jun 20, 2022)

alexadeparis said:


> I don’t understand what you are saying here. Let’s say there are 5 units available at WKORV. Let’s look at 5 owners. Owner A selects their home week for personal use. Owner B selects their home week to rent out. Owner C decides to deposit into II. Owner D decides to wait until 8 months to use staroptions somewhere else, making a unit theoretically available in WKORV for use by a VSN member. Owner E decides to elect an Abound exchange so he can go to a new Marriott resort he’s never seen, making 1 unit available in Abound for which he will get a vacation unit in exchange. 5 units, 5 owners, 5 uses. How does one owner exchanging into Abound reduce anything for anyone else? He’s making use of his unit. He has the right to do anything he wants with it, including reserve the unit and not show up, which would NOT affect the use of yours.



The home resort priority is there for a reason, to make sure that the needs of the resort owners are satisfied first for EVERY week of the calendar. That implies (and it happens all the time) that high demand weeks at certain resorts will NEVER be available to exchangers because the owners have already booked ALL the units, and NOTHING is left for non-owners. This is the whole idea behind the Home Resort Reservation Period and VSN starting the reservation window at 8 months only. 

When you squeeze in another pool at 12 months, the resort owners are no longer in full control, it is Marriott that decides how many units are still available to the resort owners and how many are available to the exchangers for every week of the calendar. Can the resort owners book 100% of the units for all the high demand weeks? No, it is Marriott that decides, they are in control and  will give Abound (exchangers) a number of  units that would otherwise be available to owners only. If you give Abound booking rights at 12 months, you seriously damage the priority of the resort owners and you place VSN to an inferior position vs Abound.


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## Eric B (Jun 20, 2022)

timsi said:


> The home resort priority is there for a reason, to make sure that the needs of the resort owners are satisfied first for EVERY week of the calendar. That implies (and it happens all the time) that high demand weeks at certain resorts will NEVER be available to exchangers because the owners have already booked ALL the units, and NOTHING is left for non-owners. This is the whole idea behind the Home Resort Reservation Period and VSN starting the reservation window at 8 months only.
> 
> When you squeeze in another pool at 12 months, the resort owners are no longer in full control, it is Marriott that decides how many units are still available to the resort owners and how many are available to the exchangers for every week of the calendar. Can the resort owners book 100% of the units for all the high demand weeks? No, it is Marriott that decides, they are in control and  will give Abound (exchangers) a number of  units that would otherwise be available to owners only. If you give Abound booking rights at 12 months, you seriously damage the priority of the resort owners and you place VSN to an inferior position vs Abound.



But see, Section 4.2.c. of the VSN rules, which reads (emphasis added):



> c. Bulk Banking for Anticipated External and Marriott Bonvoy Program Exchanges.  Network Operator has the right, but not the obligation, to reserve a number of Floating Vacation Periods from time to time at *any time after the beginning of the Home Resort Reservation Period*, and any unreserved Vacation Period after the Home Resort Reservation Period, for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External Exchange Program on behalf of Network Members based on Network Operator's determination, in its sole discretion, of anticipated Network Member demand to access an External Exchange Program or the Marriott Bonvoy Program.  Network Members may request an external exchange company assignment based upon the resort, unit and season being assigned by the Network Member for an external exchange request.



This already allows for some "damage" to the priority of resort owners at 12 months.

Section 9.3 of the VSN rules includes the following reservation of the ability to modify them (emphasis added):



> 9.3 Amendment of the Network Rules.  Except as provided in the Resort Documents, Network Operator expressly reserves the right to amend the Network Rules, with respect to Network Resorts in all respects, in its sole discretion, from time to time, without the consent of Network Members, for any purpose, *including permitting banking of Vacation Periods and creating Network tiers*.  Network Operator shall deliver notice of any amendment to each Primary Contact at the Primary Contact’s last known address.  Notice of amendments may be made by newsletter, annual mailings, facsimile, or e-mail.



I anticipate that Marriott will need to modify the rules to cite the availability of Abound.  I haven't been able to find anything in the individual resort rules that would conflict with these powers of the Network Operator (Marriott).  I'm not convinced that the definition previously cited for the Home Reservation Period would do that, so I do believe that they are currently allowed to make reservations to deposit in II during that period and have seen evidence that they do so.

I suppose they could rely on the creation of Network Tiers to differentiate between qualified and unqualified mandatory resale ownerships, but there is clearly a reservation of the right to change how reservations are made.

As a potentially interesting aside, I just did an update in Lagunamar and wound up getting an Encore package that guarantees me the right to purchase Aventuras points at the current pricing for the next 18 months.  It seems kind of interesting that they're giving that guarantee given the rumors from the sales folks that only AC/DC points will be sold once the new program is live.  Given that and the potential for a recession starting soon or in progress, it makes me wonder how things are really going to work out for enrolling the unwashed.


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## timsi (Jun 20, 2022)

Eric B said:


> But see, Section 4.2.c. of the VSN rules, which reads (emphasis added):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting this. The rules I mentioned before (the resort rules) referr to exclusive rights to compete during the first 4 months so there is clearly a conflict. 

My impression is that courts  generally do not favor conflicting and probably intentionally vague rules that go against the rights of the consumers and can be interpreted by the corporations as they please. 

To me it is not only how it is written, the practice has been clear from the very beginning, confirmed with every written marketing material and sales presentation: owners first then exchangers and owners have a reasonable expectation for that to continue. If Marriott needs to change something they may have to change a lot of governing documents and that takes time and will be questioned. I am curious how things will play out, it is possible the delay is not only due to the IT issues, maybe there are other things that have not been straightened out. Maybe the IT dept also had to deal with ever changing parameters  as the understanding of what they can legally do evolved.


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## kozykritter (Jun 20, 2022)

As alexadeparis pointed out here, all of the mentioned transactions options during the priority period are being initiated by owners with priority, not Vistana or Marriott. That is the right that you are trying to protect here and that is the right that's being exercised. No infractions involved. An owner with priority electing to receive Abound Club Points and give up their priority week is no different. I think the truth is people are uncomfortable with the Marriott fox being in charge of the Vistana chicken coop. They are the evil giant that gobbled up Starwood hotels and SPG and destroyed them for us (still hurts!) and now has Vistana is in its grip. I hear you...but take heart. The Starwood/Vistana fox has been in charge of that same chicken coop for a long time and by my count I believe nearly all of the chickens have survived. And they haven't been doing this to be nice but to make money just like any other company. Marriott will never stay in business by starving all the chickens. They know that. They also know that they have an image/trust problem with Starwood/Vistana owners, a key group they are counting on to fuel revenue growth in the future. It's going to be okay.


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## timsi (Jun 20, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> As alexadeparis pointed out here, all of the mentioned transactions options during the priority period are being initiated by owners with priority, not Vistana or Marriott. That is the right that you are trying to protect here and that is the right that's being exercised. No infractions involved. An owner with priority electing to receive Abound Club Points and give up their priority week is no different. I think the truth is people are uncomfortable with the Marriott fox being in charge of the Vistana chicken coop. They are the evil giant that gobbled up Starwood and SPG and destroyed them for us (ouch!) and now has Vistana is in its grip. Well, take heart. The Starwood/Vistana fox has been in charge of that same chicken coop for a long time and by my count I believe nearly all of the chickens have survived. And they haven't been doing this to be nice but to make money just like any other company. Marriott will never stay in business by starving all the chickens. They know that. They also know that they have an image/trust problem with Starwood/Vistana owners, a key group they are counting on to fuel revenue growth in the future. It's all going to be okay.


Those transactions you are talking about are also initiated by "owners with priority" (whatever that means) when they exchange in VSN. Abound = VSN , no difference in practical terms. VSN is supposed to abide by the rules and respect the home priority period and Abound not?


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## Eric B (Jun 20, 2022)

IMHO, the Network Operator is likely to treat reservation rules within the Home Resort Reservation the same for the combination of VSN, Abound, Bonvoy conversion and II bulk deposits as it has historically (since the merger/takeover) for the combination of VSN, Bonvoy conversion and II.  That is to say, I would expect the Network Operator to make reasoned judgments based on its experience with the relative supply and demand for prime weeks as is allowed under the current rules - this is just an additional supply and demand stream after all.  I'm getting too old to run around with my hair on fire based on what they might do in the future and, in any case, own several fixed-week fixed unit resorts where I want to go or rent out - I have minimal investment in my mandatory resale SVV weeks and my resale Lagunamar weeks and will learn to work with or without the new system when it is implemented.  Haven't been a Vistana owner all that long, but if I get stuck just staying in Westins and Sheratons I will certainly get over it - even if I can't book the Xmas or July 4th weeks that I don't own.


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## kozykritter (Jun 20, 2022)

timsi said:


> Those transactions you are talking about are also initiated by "owners with priority" (whatever that means) when they exchange in VSN. Abound = VSN , no difference in practical terms. VSN is supposed to abide by the rules and respect the home priority period and Abound not?


VSN is outside of the priority period so it's not comparable. If you want to see a problem with all of this, you're going to see it regardless of what anybody else says here.


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## kozykritter (Jun 20, 2022)

Eric B said:


> IMHO, the Network Operator is likely to treat reservation rules within the Home Resort Reservation the same for the combination of VSN, Abound, Bonvoy conversion and II bulk deposits as it has historically (since the merger/takeover) for the combination of VSN, Bonvoy conversion and II.  That is to say, I would expect the Network Operator to make reasoned judgments based on its experience with the relative supply and demand for prime weeks as is allowed under the current rules - this is just an additional supply and demand stream after all.  I'm getting too old to run around with my hair on fire based on what they might do in the future and, in any case, own several fixed-week fixed unit resorts where I want to go or rent out - I have minimal investment in my mandatory resale SVV weeks and my resale Lagunamar weeks and will learn to work with or without the new system when it is implemented.  Haven't been a Vistana owner all that long, but if I get stuck just staying in Westins and Sheratons I will certainly get over it - even if I can't book the Xmas or July 4th weeks that I don't own.


LOL I like the hair on fire thing. I was thinking Chicken Little with "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" which is probably why my post ended up having chickens in it ;-P

I get it, though. Many of us have PTSD when it comes to Marriott and changing things we love plus humans are in general fearful of change so it adds up to a lot of angst and anger in many cases. Throw in a lack of any real details about the situation and really it's just a powder keg of emotions waiting to explode.


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## timsi (Jun 20, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> *VSN is outside of the priority period* so it's not comparable. If you want to see a problem with all of this, you're going to see it regardless of what anybody else says here.


VSN is outside the priority period* because this is exactly how it is supposed to be*. But Abound and VSN are both exchanges and they should abide by the existing rules. Now I understand why those that have Sheraton Flex or MVC points would want 12 months booking window at all the MVC and Vistana resorts but this is not how the system has been set up.


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## kozykritter (Jun 20, 2022)

timsi said:


> VSN is outside the priority period* because this is exactly how it is supposed to be*. But Abound and VSN are both exchanges and they should abide by the existing rules. Now I understand why those that have Sheraton Flex or MVC points would want 12 months booking window at all the MVC and Vistana resorts but this is not how the system has been set up.


You keep missing the part where the owner with priority gives up their week during the priority period to complete a variety of transactions, one option of which is electing their points to Abound. It has nothing to do with VSN. It appears from your posts that your mind may be locked into one set of facts and won't allow in any other information. That is your right. Sincerely, I hope you find some peace with this because it is happening whether each of us wants it to or not.


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## Eric B (Jun 20, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> LOL I like the hair on fire thing.


... there is the whole not having much left thing as another reason for this....


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## kozykritter (Jun 20, 2022)

It's entirely possible that Abound may not allow Vistana properties to be booked with Vistana-elected points to cut off the type of possible circumventing of the VSN that has been outlined here. We just don't have the details yet to know.


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## timsi (Jun 20, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> You keep missing the part where the owner with priority gives up their week during the priority period to complete a variety of transactions, one option of which is electing their points to Abound. It has nothing to do with VSN. It appears your mind is locked into one set of facts and won't allow in any other information. Sincerely, I hope you find some peace with this because it is happening whether each of us wants it to or not.


Your post is wrong on so many levels and you do not seem to like the analogy with VSN, probably because it is too obvious that it is an exchange system, just like Abound. I hope you will be happy with whatever they have sold you and find peace as well.


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## kozykritter (Jun 20, 2022)

timsi said:


> Your post is wrong on so many levels and you do not seem to like the analogy with VSN, probably because it is too obvious that it is an exchange system, just like Abound. I hope you will be happy with whatever they have sold you and find peace as well.


Agree to disagree.


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## sharr7 (Jun 20, 2022)

Schrödinger's Maui Weeks: Owning a week that has so much value to the owner to use or rent that trading into an exchange is ridiculous, while simultaneously is about to be ruined by all the upcoming Abound exchanges that may allow points reservations between 8-12 months within that system.


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## Eric B (Jun 20, 2022)

timsi said:


> Your post is wrong on so many levels and you do not seem to like the analogy with VSN, probably because it is too obvious that it is an exchange system, just like Abound. I hope you will be happy with whatever they have sold you and find peace as well.



You are technically correct wrt what the VSN is.  It's defined in the VSN rules as follows:



> Network means the Vistana Signature Network , the service name given to the variety of exchange and reservation services and vacation and travel benefits currently offered and the restrictions currently imposed by Network Operator for Network Resorts.  The Network is an exchange program offered by Network Operator, an exchange company.  Network Members reserve the use of the Units  through the Network, which may or may not include access to an External Exchange Program, as set forth in the applicable Network Documents.  The Network is not a legal entity or association of any kind. Note that the Network was formerly known as Starwood Vacation Network and may be referred to by such former name in various documents and agreements. Also note that the Network was formerly known by the acronym SVN and may be referred to by such former acronym in various documents and agreements.



There is also the External Exchange Program (Interval International) for which there is an entire section dedicated in the VSN rules, Section V.

The miscellaneous Section includes a paragraph on Special Exchange Programs that reads as follows:



> 9.5 Special Exchange Programs.  Network Operator reserves the right, from time to time, to enter into special exchange relationships with any entity other than an External Exchange Company pursuant to which Network Members will have access to selected non-Network resorts and non-Network owners will have access to Network accommodations after the Home Resort Reservation Period.  Any special exchange programs will be governed by reservation rules and regulations similar to those governing an External Exchange Program.



Given the indications that Abound will have access to Network accommodations during the Home Resort Reservation Period, I would expect that it will be included as an additional External Exchange Program rather than a Special Exchange Program, but we'll see - they could modify that paragraph instead and include it there.

Bottom line is that we are in violent agreement on the VSN being an exchange system while II is and Abound will as be also exchange systems, but governed by a different portion of the VSN rules than the VSN itself is.  The devil is in the details, of course, and we don't have any of those at all other than rumor and myth from sales and the rather opaque statements by Marriott.

I'm looking forward to seeing what changes are finally instituted and made public in order to figure out how things will work.  If you think about it, the ability to book a floating week, if that is the type of ownership one has, is also a type of exchange system - my Lagunamar certificates are keyed to a specific week in a specific unit for inventory control reasons but I have absolutely no expectation of ever using the unit I own the right to use in the week I own the right to use it and fully expect that the usage will be exchanged every year for a different set of dates in a different unit.  I won't pretend that my exchange of my floating unit/week there within the Home Resort Reservation Period isn't governed by anything other than the VSN Rules, though there may be nuances in the resort rules.  That's why I keep referring to the VSN Rules - they're worth knowing about.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 20, 2022)

For whatever peace of mind it might bring, and understanding that for some there won't be peace of mind until they see Abound in action for a period of time ...

It's not as though the governing documents of Marriott Weeks don't stipulate similar rights for owners to get access to the Weeks which were sold prior to the DC inception in 2010, and it's not as though there weren't many, many, MANY owners who anticipated that Marriott would play fast and loose with inventory such that those rights would be trod all over, and/or, that the new existence of another exchange company implemented and managed by Marriott would practically guarantee the same thing.

It hasn't happened. There is no inventory manipulation happening that has Marriott Weeks owners convinced that Marriott should be taken to court, and will lose, for breach of contract due to inventory manipulation that's in direct violation of contracts.

This isn't to say that it won't happen with the Vistana integration, only to say that there's really no track record at all for anyone to assume that it will.

Of course it makes sense for Vistana owners to keep a close eye after you're all able to start playing in the sandbox, but some of you sound as though you expect nothing except the absolute worst from Marriott! As a Marriott Weeks owner who has lived through the DC implementation - and other significant changes earlier than the DC - I just don't understand the rabid distrust of Marriott. I suppose I understand disliking Marriott - I probably would dislike Vistana if it had been Vistana absorbing Marriott and not the other way around. But distrust? Why? What warrants it?

For existing Vistana owners what appears will be on the table with Abound is the same as what was on the table for Marriott owners when the DC was introduced - i.e. the ability to enroll those ownerships into what is effectively just another exchange company albeit an internal one that uses points as currency. For some Marriott owners it increased the value of their ownerships, for others it offered no value, in both cases depending on the individual ownerships. And it's worth noting that here on TUG, some of the most outspoken opponents of the DC prior to and at its introduction eventually let go of their initial distrust of the unknown and happily enrolled their Weeks/bought Points. Keep an open mind.


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## timsi (Jun 20, 2022)

Your ownership is defined as floating within a season and Lagunamar is your home resort. Based on all the Vistana rules and literature, if you chose a week at Lagunamar within your season, it is not an exchange, it is a home reservation. The week number on the deed/certificate is for inventory purposes only


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## kozykritter (Jun 20, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> For whatever peace of mind it might bring, and understanding that for some there won't be peace of mind until they see Abound in action for a period of time ...
> 
> It's not as though the governing documents of Marriott Weeks don't stipulate similar rights for owners to get access to the Weeks which were sold prior to the DC inception in 2010, and it's not as though there weren't many, many, MANY owners who anticipated that Marriott would play fast and loose with inventory such that those rights would be trod all over, and/or, that the new existence of another exchange company implemented and managed by Marriott would practically guarantee the same thing.
> 
> ...


A great perspective on things! Thanks for sharing. For my personal situation I see it all as upside for my Vistana ownership and the way that I travel yet that that might not be the case for everyone.

A potential source of distrust might be this is not the first time that something Starwood/Vistana related has been absorbed and changed by Marriott into something many people felt was much worse than what they had. The experience of seeing the much beloved SPG loyalty program get dismantled and poured into a loyalty program that felt like a giant cold machine and not anywhere near as customer focused as SPG left some people feeling sad and angry. Then once they merged SPG members in, Marriott went and watered down all the elite levels leaving SPG elites with fewer benefits than equivalent levels in the old program. And then of course there's been the constant devaluation of Bonvoy points... Right after the merger Marriott bragged that so many properties actually cost fewer points than before the merger and isn't that wonderful but yet 6 months later they raised all of those properties back up to the same levels or even higher. Sure, if you put your logic hat on you can recognize all of the expanded opportunities that came for an SPG member being merged in to a much bigger system with so many more properties. But emotionally many of us felt like we were told one thing and then within a year they pulled the rug out from under us. It's only natural now when they see Marriott about to integrate the last remaining part of Starwood that people would have trepidation and distrust after the previous experience. Even though I can recognize all the opportunities and recently actually bought a small amount of MVC points, every time Marriott chomps down on another piece of the former Starwood system, it still hurts a little as a reminder of what we lost along the way.


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## dsmrp (Jun 20, 2022)

timsi said:


> Your ownership is defined as floating within a season and Lagunamar is your home resort. Based on all the Vistana rules and literature, if you chose a week at Lagunamar within your season, it is not an exchange, it is a home reservation. The week number on the deed/certificate is for inventory purposes only



There are some sections in some Vistana resorts which were sold long ago as fixed weeks and have an 18 months priority to reserve/confirm.  I myself have a Fixed week-Fixed unit.  I agree with @kozykritter, @DavidnRobin and @alexadeparis that if an XYZ resort owner makes a conscious decision to opt for DC/Abound points, the owner's week becomes available to Abound members to reserve, and is out of the home preference period & pool for other XYZ owners to reserve.  This is the same as when the owner decides to deposit their unit week in II for exchange; their week is no longer available to other XYZ owners.   It is only when an XYZ owner in the VSN network exchange does nothing before 8 months, does their 'week' become available to non-resort owners in the VSN or other XYZ owners during the 8-12 month preference period.

I think the 13 month reservation preference for some DC elite levels is what's causing consternation.
I think the 13 months was originally designed for Marriott resort owners with 2 or more weeks, at the same resort, (@SueDonJ, plz help me out here...)  Technically some Vistana unit-weeks are able to be released more than 12 months ahead of check-in, but the majority are only reservable as early as 12 months.  So while elite Abound/DC members could make reservations 13 months in advance, I don't see it occurring very often for Vistana resorts, as long as MVC/MVW retains the current Vistana reservation windows.  I'm not sure MVC can change the Vistana reservation periods even if they wanted to.


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## kozykritter (Jun 20, 2022)

dsmrp said:


> There are some sections in some Vistana resorts which were sold long ago as fixed weeks and have an 18 months priority to reserve/confirm.  I myself have a Fixed week-Fixed unit.  I agree with @kozykritter, @DavidnRobin and @alexadeparis that if an XYZ resort owner makes a conscious decision to opt for DC/Abound points, the owner's week becomes available to Abound members to reserve, and is out of the home preference period & pool for other XYZ owners to reserve.  This is the same as when the owner decides to deposit their unit week in II for exchange; their week is no longer available to other XYZ owners.   It is only when an XYZ owner in the VSN network exchange does nothing before 8 months, does their 'week' become available to non-resort owners in the VSN or other XYZ owners during the 8-12 month preference period.
> 
> I think the 13 month reservation preference for some DC elite levels is what's causing consternation.
> I think the 13 months was originally designed for Marriott resort owners with 2 or more weeks, at the same resort, (@SueDonJ, plz help me out here...)  Technically some Vistana unit-weeks are able to be released more than 12 months ahead of check-in, but the majority are only reservable as early as 12 months.  So while elite Abound/DC members could make reservations 13 months in advance, I don't see it occurring very often for Vistana resorts, as long as MVC/MVW retains the current Vistana reservation windows.  I'm not sure MVC can change the Vistana reservation periods even if they wanted to.


The letter from Brian Miller, head of MVW, told MVC owners that through Abound they could book Vistana at 12 months and MVC properties at 13 months. I'm going to believe that 12 month limit since it came straight from the horse's mouth in a communication designed specifically for owners and made the time limit distinctions between the two booking windows very clear. Hopefully that will bring some comfort to people.


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## Eric B (Jun 20, 2022)

dsmrp said:


> It is only when an XYZ owner in the VSN network exchange does nothing before 8 months, does their 'week' become available to non-resort owners in the VSN or other XYZ owners during the 8-12 month preference period.



If you go through the Sightings forum, you can find instances where availability is present in II during the 8-12 month preference period.  I cited one instance of a Lagunamar week starting in March 2023 that was posted in that forum in the first half of May 2022.  It wasn't a typical event week or anything, so I doubt that it was a fixed week ownership that resulted in the availability; I posted about that earlier in this thread.  No idea if this was happening prior to the merger, but it seems to me that it's allowed by the VSN rules, which I quoted earlier, that allow the Network Operator to bulk bank for external exchanges as early as the opening of the 12-month Home Reservation Period.  I don't believe it was an abnormality though I haven't done a thorough look and don't plan to because I believe it to be within the rules for the Network Operator to do that.


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## DavidnRobin (Jun 20, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> The letter from Brian Miller, head of MVW, told MVC owners that through Abound they could book Vistana at 12 months and MVC properties at 13 months. I'm going to believe that 12 month limit since it came straight from the horse's mouth in a communication designed specifically for owners and made the time limit distinctions between the two booking windows very clear. Hopefully that will bring some comfort to people.



iirc
Up to 12 months - not at 12 months

a small but important nuance 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SueDonJ (Jun 20, 2022)

dsmrp said:


> There are some sections in some Vistana resorts which were sold long ago as fixed weeks and have an 18 months priority to reserve/confirm.  I myself have a Fixed week-Fixed unit.  I agree with @kozykritter, @DavidnRobin and @alexadeparis that if an XYZ resort owner makes a conscious decision to opt for DC/Abound points, the owner's week becomes available to Abound members to reserve, and is out of the home preference period & pool for other XYZ owners to reserve.  This is the same as when the owner decides to deposit their unit week in II for exchange; their week is no longer available to other XYZ owners.   It is only when an XYZ owner in the VSN network exchange does nothing before 8 months, does their 'week' become available to non-resort owners in the VSN or other XYZ owners during the 8-12 month preference period.
> 
> I think the 13 month reservation preference for some DC elite levels is what's causing consternation.
> I think the 13 months was originally designed for Marriott resort owners with 2 or more weeks, at the same resort, (@SueDonJ, plz help me out here...)  Technically some Vistana unit-weeks are able to be released more than 12 months ahead of check-in, but the majority are only reservable as early as 12 months.  So while elite Abound/DC members could make reservations 13 months in advance, I don't see it occurring very often for Vistana resorts, as long as MVC/MVW retains the current Vistana reservation windows.  I'm not sure MVC can change the Vistana reservation periods even if they wanted to.


Marriott's two systems, Weeks and DC (soon-to-be-Abound) Points, have separate reservation rules and Reservation Window/Inventory Release dates.

For Weeks: Each resort has its own Seasonal Calendar and its own check-in days of the week. Examples: Platinum season at a resort at Hilton Head Island is generally only the summer months while Platinum Season at the Hawaii resorts is generally all year long, and, most of the resorts at Hilton Head Island allow Weeks check-in days on Fri-Sat-Sun while the Aruba resorts allow Thurs-Fri-Sat-Sun-Mon check-in days. Owners of multiple Weeks can use the 13-mos Reservation Window to book any combination of multiple Weeks, or multiple lock-off components from multiple Weeks, when booking consecutive/concurrent stays, with the Release/Call-In date being 13-mos in advance of the first allowable check-in day of the first reservation desired. Owners who are booking a single Week can use the 12-mos Reservation Window, again with the Release Date being 12-mos in advance of the first allowable check-in date of the desired reservation. (It's not as confusing as it sounds, and, there's a tool on the website where you select Weeks usage then input the resort and the date you want to check-in after which it tells you the Call-In Day for each Reservation Window.)

For Points: Reservation Windows are determined by a DC Member's status, which is determined by the total number of Points which the owner has purchased and/or the total number of Points for which the owner can exchange enrolled Weeks. The top line of this "Benefits At A Glance" chart shows the number of Points required for each status tier, and, the second line shows the Reservation Windows depending on the number of nights of a desired stay. Again, the tool on the website makes it very easy to know the exact Release Date.

Weeks and Points inventory is not released on the same day, so the 13-months Release Date for Weeks usage is not the same as the 13-months Release Date for Points. Some Marriott owners know which days of the week each is released but I find just using the tool and not having to remember all the details is so much easier.

**********************
But when all is said and done, regardless of which DC/Abound Reservation Windows you're eligible, like every other exchange company ALL reservations are based on availability. If there are vagaries which should prevent Marriott from releasing inventory for reservation confirmations, I would expect that Marriott won't release it. And as has been said by so many others, nothing can be made available via the exchange company until and unless the owners (including Marriott for any intervals it owns, or any inventory machinations it's entitled to make) elect to exchange for DC/Abound Points. When that election is made with an enrolled Marriott Week it cannot be reverted back for any other usage, and I'd say it's practically a guarantee that the same will be true with Vistana elections.

***********************
Just want to say I don't want to be cluttering your thread/forum with unwanted info, and I know that my book-writing style isn't everyone's cup of tea. Know that I'm happy to sit and silently watch if that's what any of you need me to do - just say the word.


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## Venter (Jun 20, 2022)

I think we all agree that some kind of exchange company is being used.  The difference is in how they exchange.
VSN exchanges leftovers for leftovers at 8 months.  Abound exchanges rights to use at a home resorts for rights to use at other resorts at 12 months for Vistana resorts and 13 months for Marriott resorts.


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## jabberwocky (Jun 20, 2022)

timsi said:


> Maybe, but corporations are supposed to maximize their profits so they may also  keep a little bit more of the high demand weeks for themselves.





timsi said:


> Those transactions you are talking about are also initiated by "owners with priority" (whatever that means) when they exchange in VSN. Abound = VSN , no difference in practical terms. VSN is supposed to abide by the rules and respect the home priority period and Abound not?


VSN is not Abound and they are not equal. They are two different systems.

If you opt to take Abound points with your home week, then Marriott can book that home week for another Abound user. Owners in VSN can only use their StarOptions at the 8-month mark and at that point they then give up their home week rights unless they are using banked SO, in which case their home week rights were given up when banking.

I don’t see what the big deal is here.  To argue that a home week owner should get 12 or 13 month priority in Abound while not giving other Abound users have fair access to that week would unfairly advantage Vistana home resort owners who would then have less competition for those weeks. As long as the overall percent deposited into Abound is equally applied for all weeks of the season, it should not be a problem and is fair IMO.


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## timsi (Jun 20, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> would unfairly advantage Vistana home resort owners who would then have less competition for those weeks.


This is how home priority is supposed to work. First owners, then exchangers.


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## vacationtime1 (Jun 20, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> VSN is not Abound and they are not equal. They are two different systems.
> 
> If you opt to take Abound points with your home week, then Marriott can book that home week for another Abound user. Owners in VSN can only use their StarOptions at the 8-month mark and at that point they then give up their home week rights unless they are using banked SO, in which case their home week rights were given up when banking.
> 
> I don’t see what the big deal is here.  To argue that a home week owner should get 12 or 13 month priority in Abound while not giving other Abound users have fair access to that week would unfairly advantage Vistana home resort owners who would then have less competition for those weeks. *As long as the overall percent deposited into Abound is equally applied for all weeks of the season, it should not be a problem and is fair* IMO.


I agree completely. 

The problem for us VSN members will come at the 8 month mark.  There will be slightly less inventory because some owners will have elected DC points.  But there will be tons more competition for the good weeks; we will be competing with every DC points owner.


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## jabberwocky (Jun 20, 2022)

timsi said:


> This is how home priority is supposed to work. First owners, then exchangers.


If I convert my week to Abound points I am in essence transferring my ownership rights to the Abound pool.

Owners should get better room assignments over exchangers. But transferring ownership booking rights to another party means they should get full use of those owner rights - otherwise you would get lower booking rights at Marriotts.

I much prefer this approach relative to HGVC Max where you can only use the other system at 6 months.  It does give more options to actually book high demand weeks in the Marriott system (although personally I don’t see myself using it all that often).


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## byeloe (Jun 20, 2022)

vacationtime1 said:


> we will be competing with every DC points owner


not for the VSN 8 month inventory


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## timsi (Jun 20, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> If I convert my week to Abound points I am in essence transferring my ownership rights to the Abound pool.
> 
> Owners should get better room assignments over exchangers. But transferring ownership booking rights to another party means they should get full use of those owner rights - otherwise you would get lower booking rights at Marriotts.
> 
> I much prefer this approach relative to HGVC Max where you can only use the other system at 6 months.  It does give more options to actually book high demand weeks in the Marriott system (although personally I don’t see myself using it all that often).


When you book in VSN you transfer ownership rights to VSN (just as in Abound) but without breaking the home priority rule. 

I agree with you about HGVC, they  seem to respect the existing rules  and not create irreconcilable conflicts.


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## vacationtime1 (Jun 20, 2022)

byeloe said:


> not for the VSN 8 month inventory


Please persuade me I am wrong; this is my biggest concern about the takeover merger.

We know that Marriott trades its DC inventory back and forth with II inventory to fulfill reservations.  Why wouldn't they continue to do this?  As long as the VSN basket is full (i.e. there are enough weeks to cover StarOption requests), they could help themselves to the prime weeks without violating anyone's rights.


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## sharr7 (Jun 20, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> iirc
> Up to 12 months - not at 12 months
> 
> a small but important nuance
> ...


Agree that people are so focused on 12 months to the day - I would expect in Abound there may be some 12 month inventory but more inventory appearing throughout the 12-8 month window as people elect for Abound points. I guess it depends on time of year and election deadlines etc. 

Regardless, I think from 12-8 months, MVW's ability to "abuse" their powers is limited to owners that elect to convert to Abound. They can't just take weeks and make them available in Abound, it has to be initiated by the owner. Once elected, could they turn that into prime-only weeks? Perhaps but reports seem to be they don't do that - at least not to the point where it's a problem or an owner frustration. 

I'm still a bit wary about what happens at 8 months - when everything in VSN becomes a "points" reservation. Do Vistana weeks stay in the VSN like always or do they become available to Abound? Perhaps both simultaneously? Will they run the black box that tells them expected interest from both programs and make the appropriate number available to each?

I have to think big picture the company WANTS to have everyone own points and have those points be in the same points system. Points are so much easier to control and re- or de-value than fractional ownership. There's a reason DP and Flex have been pushed for years. And why would they want to operate 2 systems indefinitely for their single program? But it's obviously not going to happen in 5, probably 10 years - so how long does it take - 20? 30? It's certainly a long game. What does that look like in VSN though? Maybe things that were regularly available at 6-7 months dry up quicker but are available in Abound? That's more my concern than exclusivity of home resort at 12 months, when they're already on record as saying those have to be traded to Abound to be available. But then I'm not a Hawaii owner so I value different things.


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## kozykritter (Jun 20, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> Marriott's two systems, Weeks and DC (soon-to-be-Abound) Points, have separate reservation rules and Reservation Window/Inventory Release dates.
> 
> For Weeks: Each resort has its own Seasonal Calendar and its own check-in days of the week. Examples: Platinum season at a resort at Hilton Head Island is generally only the summer months while Platinum Season at the Hawaii resorts is generally all year long, and, most of the resorts at Hilton Head Island allow Weeks check-in days on Fri-Sat-Sun while the Aruba resorts allow Thurs-Fri-Sat-Sun-Mon check-in days. Owners of multiple Weeks can use the 13-mos Reservation Window to book any combination of multiple Weeks, or multiple lock-off components from multiple Weeks, when booking consecutive/concurrent stays, with the Release/Call-In date being 13-mos in advance of the first allowable check-in day of the first reservation desired. Owners who are booking a single Week can use the 12-mos Reservation Window, again with the Release Date being 12-mos in advance of the first allowable check-in date of the desired reservation. (It's not as confusing as it sounds, and, there's a tool on the website where you select Weeks usage then input the resort and the date you want to check-in after which it tells you the Call-In Day for each Reservation Window.)
> 
> ...


Considering many of us are soon to become more intimate with the MVC system to some degree, I for one see the value in you sharing this information at just the right time. Thank you!


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## kozykritter (Jun 20, 2022)

vacationtime1 said:


> I agree completely.
> 
> The problem for us VSN members will come at the 8 month mark.  There will be slightly less inventory because some owners will have elected DC points.  But there will be tons more competition for the good weeks; we will be competing with every DC points owner.


I think I missed something or I misread what you meant. Has it been formally announced that DC owners will be able to book VSN inventory at 8 months? As far as I've read with Brian Miller's letter and the other general information released, Abound will contain the Vistana weeks whose owners elected to receive DC points in return. They haven't said anything officially about adding other Vistana inventory like unsold, take backs, FoFR, etc, have they?


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## dioxide45 (Jun 20, 2022)

Realize that Vistana/MVW can change the VSN rules at any time with or without notice. They could easily add a provision for Abound.


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## timsi (Jun 20, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Realize that Vistana/MVW can change the VSN rules at any time with or without notice. They could easily add a provision for Abound.


Don't they also have to do it for every resort? And just because they can change the rules, it does not mean they should not comply with them as they exist today. 

Changing the rules may not be as easy as it sounds when it comes to such dramatic shifts. Because there is a new points chart in Abound, certain resorts have lost up to 30% of their trading power in Abound (vs VSN) If those owners cannot find the usual inventory in VSN, they will be severely impacted if they  trade through Abound for the same units. Once Marriott changes the rules, the idea that Abound  is just another "option" with nothing to loose goes down the drain if it requires such a big legal and operational effort. I am not sure if this does not expose Marriott for more litigation risk since many owners will claim, and be able to prove easily , that this is not what they signed up for.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 20, 2022)

I keep seeing the words "litigation risk", is anyone here willing to put up for the effort?


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## timsi (Jun 20, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> I just don't understand the rabid distrust of Marriott. I suppose I understand disliking Marriott - I probably would dislike Vistana if it had been Vistana absorbing Marriott and not the other way around. But distrust? Why? What warrants it?


You asked, I answer. Trust is earned. It would be naïve to believe that the developer wants to keep the lion’s share when it comes to things we can see, but when it comes to things we cannot see, like the entire inventory, the developer becomes suddenly  a beacon of fairness. I will give just few examples.

Rock bottom resale market? Great for Marriott because they can acquire a lot of cheap inventory, bad for the owners that must sell, they lose more money than they should. This is by design, not by accident and many rules are in place to make sure this will stay this way (stripping resale units of certain features, ROFR   etc). This is also bad for owners because it means fewer new resorts, it is a lot more expensive to build than getting inventory for free.

Do you want to book a good week for your vacations or maybe to rent? So does Marriott, and their rental income has grown very nicely over the years. It may be because they have more inventory or because they have the ability to book more high demand weeks. Nobody knows the answer and we are supposed to trust them blindly but clearly the fox is guarding the hen house when it comes to inventory.

The owners pay the maintenance fees, but do they benefit equally with the developer? Marriott rents a lot of units, and their guests  typically get daily cleaning. I did not see in any budget that the developer pays more to compensate for the additional housekeeping costs.

If I am not mistaken, Vistana can rent the available nights at 0-60 days, and I am not aware of any compensation for the MF the owners pay for that inventory.

Some people are behind the maintenance fees and the owners have to bear the “bad debt”.  After a certain period of time the developer gets those deeds for free. Maybe you would want to be able to buy certain units at very attractive prices if  they become available… Not possible, their gain, your loss. 

The higher the resort maintenance fees the more management fees for Marriott.

They restructured the Vistana customer service, savings for Marriott, big loss for the for owners. This lasted many months and even today it is not completely where it was before Marriott.

Poor availability in VSN at certain resorts at 8 months for January and February 2023? Very odd what is happening in VSN right now I would be curious to know how this relates to Abound when the new program has not even started yet.

You want to use VSN even after the integration? Well, you can, but Marriott does not make money with that exchange (no skim) so let’s give Abound more attractive features.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 20, 2022)

The problem is VSN weeks were sold as home weeks with home week priority with SO trading at 8 months. This together with mandatory grandfathering for SO resale was sold as a system and is baked into the CC&Rs (and resale value) of the Maui and WKV properties.

If Vistana could have changed rules they would have long ago. But they cannot. So Abound is how they are skirting the rules by strangling the system that many have bought in good faith and expectation.

MVC never had  a system with points prior to DP. By adding Abound they are messing with the SO system and deed availability people bought. The slippery slope started with Flex at 12 months, however the impact was small, the weeks owned, and no oceanfront included. There are many IV and OV at these resorts so the impact on availability was not noticed.

What is different with Abound is there are a limited number of OFs. WKORV has 12 centerfronts and 24 deluxe per week. Take only two CF out of the system per week and 4 deluxe and you've lost 17% of available inventory per week!

Take just 4 CF and 8 Dlx weeks during July 4th or Pres week for Abound and Mariott owned weeks to rent and deeded owners lose more than 33% or one third of available inventory for that popular week.

And let's not forget that you have 50 (1-50) weeks of deeded owners already competing for 2 event weeks (Pres week, July 4th) or about 16 - 24 prime whale and summer weeks without MVC messing with system availability with Abound.

Bottom line: You can perhaps trust when there is a lot of inventory. But in the case of OFs there is little room for error or self dealing to cause significant damage to available owner inventory.

With deeded owners paying close to $3000/week, you can expect anger when their desired, legally deeded week is unavailable because MVC is monkeying with the system.

Note: number of OF units were corrected from original post.


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## DavidnRobin (Jun 20, 2022)

To long to quote - but I disagree that WKORV/N is equivalent to MOC, and location. But I am biased by my favorite activity while there (laying on beach outside and snorkeling the reef).

N=12 OFC
N=24 OFD

I am not aware of the DC points available for our OFD (and don’t care), but no way I am paying more money to convert something that I plan to use annually and not exchange anyway.

The OF owners alone could unite when denied reasonable usage based on years of data, and current denials of usage.
This would open them to a transparent look based on 50*36 = 1800 weeks. That is a small data set that can easily be evaluated for usage, and is not confounded by Flex usage as the other view locations.

Heck, add in WKORVN (n=158*50 iirc).

@dioxide45 correctly put forward who would take this on? I think there are enough OFD and OFC Owners here (including lurkers) that it could be pushed into an official inquiry to the HOA. Not unlike what happened at WSJ-VGV.
(see part 1 of WSJ thread)

OFD and OFC are old school VOIs - week intervals with only Sat and Sun checkins available during 12-8 months (HomeResort period). A simple look really. And not complicated by Flex.

But maybe that is just me…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 21, 2022)

@DavidnRobin  Thanks for the n. I forgot there were 2 wings. I updated my note.

As you may surmise, this update doesnt change the fact that minor errors or self-dealing by MVC for popular weeks can have a big impact on owner home week availability for OF. More importantly, why should MVC alone be the arbiter of such decisions?

@dioxide45 FYI, there is precedent of owners of high value properties fighting and winning.  The former Interwest, now Embarc successfully fended off integrating their system with Diamond after they indicated they wanted to merge Embarc with their Club points trust.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 21, 2022)

I am also not convinced that II exchange deposits are always 1:1 as some have indicated. Some  companies perform bulk drops and substitute lower demand resorts and weeks into those exchanges keeping the higher value resorts and weeks for themselves.  I believe Disney does this since the same 2 lower-end resorts are the only ones that show up on searches.


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## alexadeparis (Jun 21, 2022)

timsi said:


> This is how home priority is supposed to work. First owners, then exchangers.


On a one for one basis. You own ONE unit, you get ONE unit. I own one, I get one. If I take mine into any exchange pool, it’s the SAME as if I reserved my home week, or rented it, or raffled it off for charity, as far as YOUR reservation is concerned. That’s because MY reservation and what I do with it, or not, doesn’t affect your reservation EITHER way. Availability is not adversely affected when a reservation is made, because instead of 5,000 owners competing for 5,000 weeks there would be 4,999 owners competing for 4,999 weeks when one reservation is off the table. Why is this so difficult to follow? Or are you being deliberately obtuse to continue this interpretation for the sake of argument only?


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## alexadeparis (Jun 21, 2022)

timsi said:


> When you book in VSN you transfer ownership rights to VSN (just as in Abound) but without breaking the home priority rule.



Sorry but this is not true, to book a VSN reservation you give up your home priority once any portion of the unit is used as staroptions. I really don’t think you understand the home priority rule. The home priority rule is that you have a right to reserve a unit at the 12 to 8 month mark. The disconnect you are having is that Abound moves a home priority reservation to Abound if a Vistana owner elects Abound points instead. If your logic is that the action of moving my reservation to Abound some how diminishes your chances to reserve your own unit, that’s not the case. If you are trying to argue that in theory me swapping my home reservation to staroptions somehow leaves an extra unit that is available for YOU to choose from and book, that is not how it works, the unit has to be made available for staroptions, because 4999 owners can only book 4999 units according to the rules, not 5,000.


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## rcv82 (Jun 21, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> To long to quote - but I disagree that WKORV/N is equivalent to MOC, and location. But I am biased by my favorite activity while there (laying on beach outside and snorkeling the reef).
> 
> N=12 OFC
> N=24 OFD
> ...



For Presidents’ Day week, when the website is working, all of the oceanfront WKORV units can be gone in literally 1 second at midnight ET a year out. And even then you may come up short. It is unfair competition for the weeks if Marriott scoops any of those out ahead of time because there is a well established history of full owner booking of available inventory. So I think there is potentially a case here if they do that. Many of the other prime weeks book out just about as fast. Since there has to be at least as many oceanfront weeks throughout the year as there are owners, for every owner that deposits to Abound points, there will be an open week somewhere during the year not booked by an owner. If they at least waited a day to allow owners wanting to book their unit a year to get first crack before taking a deposited week for Abound, it would be a little more fair. Waiting until 8 months like VSN would be the best. (Alternatively, I’m sure the have history for which weeks do not book out quickly. If those were the weeks used by the Abound deposits that would be fine too.)


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## pchung6 (Jun 21, 2022)

The problem is we already don’t see WKORV/N and Nanea inventory available at 8 months at VSN. It wasn’t the case before. something always available at 8 months, although it might be gone in 23 seconds, still something available at 8 months. Now, nothing is available.


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## tamu_bu (Jun 21, 2022)

I guess after reading the back and forth, I'll take the wait and see approach. Not gonna sweat the what ifs. 

But that said, my concern is systematic. I can not in any way imagine how adding more complexity to an already complex set of rules is going to be implemented and roll out smoothly through Marriott's archaic systems. They've already proven an inability to mishandle the existing Vistana reservation system and to ignore the struggles. 

Based on the programming involved, the new trading rules have to have been defined to the N'th degree for weeks is not months if they expect a fully tested and mostly flawless roll out by July or even July 84th. But they have rightfully earned a healthy level of systems distrust based on their poor handling of Vistana systems.


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## timsi (Jun 21, 2022)

alexadeparis said:


> I really don’t think you understand the home priority rule. The home priority rule is that you have a right to reserve a unit at the 12 to 8 month mark. The disconnect you are having is that Abound moves a home priority reservation to Abound if a Vistana owner elects Abound points instead.



I do not think you understand. According to the resort rules :

"Home Resort Float Period means the period during which all Network Members *owning* VOIs at a particular Home
Resort have the *exclusive right to compete to reserve* the use of Vacation Periods within their Season and Unit type
at their Home Resort"
It clearly mentions you have to *own* those VOI, not to get them through some novel and contorted transfer of rights through an exchange (like Abound, VSN or any other). 

If you own Sheraton Flex  you have fractions of 8 Sheraton resorts so you do not have any VOI in  WKORVN but somehow you will have access to that resort at 12 months? How come you do not infringe the rights of the actual home owners to  enjoy an exclusive 4 month period to book/cancel as many times as they want before others have any access? To me Marriott would attack with a bazooka the concept of home resort ownership, it would not be subtle at all.


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## Eric B (Jun 21, 2022)

Clearly, reasonable minds can disagree on these things.  It's not clear to me that anyone indicated that Sheraton Flex owners can access WKORVN at 12 months either.  I believe there is some ownership in WKORVN in the Westin Flex, though I don't follow that as I'm not a Westin Flex owner and don't have any personal interest in that product, so I believe they would have access at 12 months.  In my opinion, reasonable interpretations of the VSN and resort rules exist that would allow Marriott to implement a non-infringing additional external exchange program that would have access to at least some resorts after the 12-month point, but that's just my opinion and I take into account that they have the power to modify at least some of the rules to accomplish it.  Maybe there are some resorts for which the rules would restrict that access to after the 8-month point - I haven't read any, though.  I could be wrong, of course and it would benefit me if the other interpretation wins the day - it does match to a great extent things the sales force says but I've always taken those statements with a large grain of salt.  At this point it's probably not worth getting worked up about (at least for me) - I'll be happy to join in on raising a stink if and when there is something that happens that I believe infringes the rights of ownership I have.


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## timsi (Jun 21, 2022)

Eric B said:


> It's not clear to me that anyone indicated that Sheraton Flex owners can access WKORVN at 12 months either.


If any VKORVN unit is available at 12 months in Abound, all Abound members will have access regardless of their underlying ownership.  Sheraton Flex was just an example.


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## sharr7 (Jun 21, 2022)

I don't get how in the context of this discussion, Abound isn't just a different version of Interval International. Trades at 8-24 months into interval being available immediately to other non-owners do not infringe on Home Priority Period rights, correct?


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## Eric B (Jun 21, 2022)

timsi said:


> If any VKORVN unit is available at 12 months in Abound, all Abound members will have access regardless of their underlying ownership.  Sheraton Flex was just an example.



You'd best sue them now, then.  I was able to book a week at Lagunamar in the 8-12 month period using a week from Mountainside Villas at Massanutten through Interval International - a different exchange system than Abound.  I wish you the best of luck in that litigation and recommend trying to find an attorney that will do it on a contingent fee basis.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 21, 2022)

sharr7 said:


> I don't get how in the context of this discussion, Abound isn't just a different version of Interval International. Trades at 8-24 months into interval being available immediately to other non-owners do not infringe on Home Priority Period rights, correct?


The difference is that with II, Vistana doesn't necessarily deposit a week right away for non-owners to exchange into. We don't really know when they deposit and they have shown they don't deposit the best prime weeks.


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## timsi (Jun 21, 2022)

Eric B said:


> You'd best sue them now, then.  I was able to book a week at Lagunamar in the 8-12 month period using a week from Mountainside Villas at Massanutten through Interval International - a different exchange system than Abound.  I wish you the best of luck in that litigation and recommend trying to find an attorney that will do it on a contingent fee basis.


So you are saying that there is mounting evidence 

Home owners have never challenged Interval because the good deposits are so scarce that they do not really matter in the overall scheme so nobody would bother with this issue. But when you design a parallel system to unfairly compete with the existing internal exchange and infringe the home owners' rights, it is a whole new ball game. My guess is that Marriott will not want to get to the point of a litigation. During discovery there may be access to their  daily decisions concerning inventory and this may prove embarrassing or worse.


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## vikingsholm (Jun 21, 2022)

After reading through a fair number of these comments, all I can say is what a complicated mess.

I'll pretty much ignore it anyway, my main hope is that whatever they set up doesn't result in a lot of raiding of good Marriott units by those who join into the combined system from Westin and Sheraton. I enjoyed a few stays we had at Westin in Hawaii and elsewhere, but not as much as the Marriotts there. Sticking with Marriott, Ritz, Worldmark, and some other independent timeshares that we own to use and trade covers our bases quite well, and this seems like something I'm a bound to stay away from.


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## sharr7 (Jun 21, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> The difference is that with II, Vistana doesn't necessarily deposit a week right away for non-owners to exchange into. We don't really know when they deposit and they have shown they don't deposit the best prime weeks.


Doesn't seem like we could know any of this for sure. Yes it probably takes them at least a few days to assign and transfer a specific week but there's no guarantees they wait until 8 months out. And assuming they do assign weeks 8+ months they may just fill someone's ongoing search and no one else would ever know it was in the II system. 
There's actually more "proof" that Abound will NOT release exchanged weeks to the masses because they have to wait until the 12 month window, but maybe they will "deposit" later as well if thats what II does.


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## The Colorado Kid (Jun 21, 2022)

vikingsholm said:


> After reading through a fair number of these comments, all I can say is what a complicated mess.
> 
> I'll pretty much ignore it anyway, my main hope is that whatever they set up doesn't result in a lot of raiding of good Marriott units by those who join into the combined system from Westin and Sheraton. I enjoyed a few stays we had at Westin in Hawaii and elsewhere, but not as much as the Marriotts there. Sticking with Marriott, Ritz, Worldmark, and some other independent timeshares that we own to use and trade covers our bases quite well, and this seems like something I'm a bound to stay away from.


@vikingsholm I see what you did there


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 21, 2022)

alexadeparis said:


> On a one for one basis. You own ONE unit, you get ONE unit. I own one, I get one. If I take mine into any exchange pool, it’s the SAME as if I reserved my home week, or rented it, or raffled it off for charity, as far as YOUR reservation is concerned. That’s because MY reservation and what I do with it, or not, doesn’t affect your reservation EITHER way. Availability is not adversely affected when a reservation is made, because instead of 5,000 owners competing for 5,000 weeks there would be 4,999 owners competing for 4,999 weeks when one reservation is off the table. Why is this so difficult to follow? Or are you being deliberately obtuse to continue this interpretation for the sake of argument only?



One to one is not always the case. How do you explain ePlus upgrades, where II earns an upgrade fee from a larger or more luxurious unit that is not equivalent? That's not 1:1. And what happens to the owner that deposited the upgraded 2 bdrm unit? Musical chairs - someone must lose out.

As you stated, Abound so far appears to add the ability to transfer owner priority rights to the exchange. This is new and different from SOs and II and not how the system was designed.  This is why this is a red flag.

If 50 (1 - 50 weeks) deeded owners are already competing for 12 OF VOIs for 2 key weeks (Presidents, July 4) then how is it that MVC who manages the exchange is competing on equal footing as owners when it was already demonstrated earlier in this thread that they are offering an OF July 4 week  on Mariott.com for $2000/night? Or taking best weeks to Abound in order to squeeze owners to join their system?

Does anyone honestly believe MVCs odds were 1:50 - on par with deeded owners - for booking that WKORV OF Deluxe July 4 week that they placed on Marriott.com? ("but we should _trust_ them to do the right thing"...umm, right)

Abound is a new house advantage that they are adding to the system and it is unfair advantage inconsistent with the CC&Rs. As an owner, I am absolutley affected because rather than 1:50 odds my odds of reserving prime weeks has now been reduced. It is unfair competition because the owner that deposited only had 1:50 if they reserved themselves.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 21, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> ... Abound is a new house advantage that they are adding to the system and it is unfair advantage inconsistent with the CC&Rs.



How can any of us know if this definitive statement is true or false when none of the governing documents related to Vistana's integration in Marriott's Destination Club/Abound program have been released? The documents based on the program's specifics that have had to be reviewed and authorized by regulatory agencies?

You might be correct and Marriott Vacations Worldwide is going to put their entire well-established corporation completely at risk by flagrantly violating the ownership rights of the relatively few Vistana owners in their entire portfolio. Sure, anything's possible. But I would think that the time for such definitive charges of illegal activity would wait until the proof is in hand.


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## alexadeparis (Jun 21, 2022)

timsi said:


> I do not think you understand. According to the resort rules :
> 
> "Home Resort Float Period means the period during which all Network Members *owning* VOIs at a particular Home
> Resort have the *exclusive right to compete to reserve* the use of Vacation Periods within their Season and Unit type
> ...


”exclusive right to compete to reserve” means we both reserve from the same home resort pool. I reserve mine and place the reservation into Abound. The rest are available for you to try to reserve, but I am no longer competing. Mine moves into Abound and then Abound members can compete for it. In order for an Abound member to compete for it, if they have an underlying week, they have to give up their home week, too. (Leave pure points out of this discussion for clarity). In order to play in VSN staroption, II or Abound, you have to forfeit your home use. What is incomprehensible here for you?


as for Sheraton flex, your individual ownership may not be tied to a specific ownership week, but the entire flex pool IS actually composed of underlying unit weeks and one with equivalent points value to what you put into Abound will be provided to Abound. You won’t get to see or select which one but you don’t get to do that with a VSN deposit into II anymore either. I think your concerns are WAY overblown and misguided and at the end of the day, much ado about nothing. I don’t see how the home resort right is being infringed in ANY of your proposed scenarios.


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## alexadeparis (Jun 21, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> One to one is not always the case. How do you explain ePlus upgrades, where II earns an upgrade fee from a larger or more luxurious unit that is not equivalent? That's not 1:1. And what happens to the owner that deposited the upgraded 2 bdrm unit? Musical chairs - someone must lose out.
> 
> As you stated, Abound adds the ability to transfer owner priority rights to the exchange. This is new and different from SOs and II and not how the system was designed.  This is why this is a red flag.
> 
> ...


An e-plus upgrade is still one unit for one unit and once the unit goes into exchange it’s no longer a candidate for home resort priority. Like for like is what you are talking about, and that is not the same as what the discussion of home resort priority is or how it works. Yes exchanging Carries risks by getting a smaller unit, or worse resort quality or worse season, but that’s baked into the exchange cake and has been going on long before abound or even VSN.


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## remowidget (Jun 21, 2022)

pchung6 said:


> The problem is we already don’t see WKORV/N and Nanea inventory available at 8 months at VSN. It wasn’t the case before. something always available at 8 months, although it might be gone in 23 seconds, still something available at 8 months. Now, nothing is available.


There is a whole other dynamic going on here. Lots of people have tons of banked expiring staroptions due to covid and are now using them.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 21, 2022)

@SueDonJ You are correct. We need to see what Abound ultimately looks like but if Vistana owners don't speak up not it may be too late for them to change direction.

There is a business saying, "Tell me how they are measured and I will tell you how they will act."  MVCs business model is enriched when they sell their points system and sell new services. Renting out prime weeks on Marriott.com is also a source of revenue. Deeds are becoming like resale to them. An annoyance they would rather eliminate if they could.

Why do you think they came up with Abound in the first place? Does anyone honestly believe this is because they are trying to serve their owners? It is all about making more money. 

It is not hard to prove that they have been using their house advantage already to profit on Marriott.com. OF owners need to monitor and watch for listings and capture screenshots. We could create a private TUG thread to capture this data.  As stated earlier, HOA reservation records can be supoenaed by owners to determine if Abound fits within the 1:50 random odds.

Here is exhibit 1, July 4 WKORV Deluxe OF 1 bdrm:









						Marriott Abound
					

You can, but the "Owner" level has to pay a 10% point premium to book 7+ nights at 13 months. Select can book 7+ nights without the premium and Executive and above can book 1+ nights at 13 months.  I did not know about the 10% point premium!! Thx




					tugbbs.com


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## divenski (Jun 21, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> One to one is not always the case. How do you explain ePlus upgrades, where II earns an upgrade fee from a larger or more luxurious unit that is not equivalent? That's not 1:1. And what happens to the owner that deposited the upgraded 2 bdrm unit? Musical chairs - someone must lose out.



It's not musical chairs as depositing a higher end 2-brdm unit into II has always been a higher risk situation. Except for the rare 3-bdrm units, you can't upgrade the room size and you always lose the view preference. Situations like this are one reason why some people complained about II and like the DP system. It really works well for 2-bdrm units that don't have a lockoff, eg MVC Waiohai, where a one unit week can possibly be stretched to 1-2 weeks of smaller units. Arguably, the main losers were traders who relished the idea of routinely trading up.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 21, 2022)

alexadeparis said:


> An e-plus upgrade is still one unit for one unit and once the unit goes into exchange it’s no longer a candidate for home resort priority. Like for like is what you are talking about, and that is not the same as what the discussion of home resort priority is or how it works. *Yes exchanging Carries risks by getting a smaller unit, or worse resort quality or worse season, but that’s baked into the exchange cake* and has been going on long before abound or even VSN.



Agree. Why should Abound be any different if it is an exchange? It should not be like for like.


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## Eric B (Jun 21, 2022)

Can we get to 100 pages on this one before the Abound rules are released?  It might take some work, but maybe....


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## SueDonJ (Jun 21, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @SueDonJ You are correct. We need to see what Abound ultimately looks like but if Vistana owners don't speak up not it may be too late for them to change direction.
> 
> There is a business saying, "Tell me how they are measured and I will tell you how they will act."  MVCs business model is enriched when they sell their points system and sell new services. Renting out prime weeks on Marriott.com is also a source of revenue. Deeds are becoming like resale to them. An annoyance they would rather eliminate if they could.
> 
> ...


I have no problem at all with affected owners hashing out the legalities of their ownerships on TUG (and as you can tell, no problem at all with non-owners offering their opinions and knowledge to help direct those owners constructively.  ) But I don't think there's any chance at all of a private TUG thread solving your intended purpose because there are Marriott eyes all over TUG. They used to be easily recognized (like this: MVCI Customer Advocate) but they never regularly participated and none of the easily-recognized have been noticed around here for a good long time. BUT there are other Marriott employees/reps sanctioned by corporate who are still regularly reading, and I know this because a few have outed themselves to me. I would guess that all of the other big timeshare players would have their eyes on TUG, too - like Denise has said, TUG is a working focus group for them.

As for who came up with Abound in the first place it's simply a renaming of the Destination Club. Many rightly suspect that the DC was developed by Marriott to counteract the reality of low-demand Weeks intervals not selling and thus dragging their business down, and for that purpose its design and implementation has been ingenious! Who wouldn't expect Marriott to protect and further its own business interests?! The thing is, though, it's been a very welcome change for many, many owners including me. Don and I bought Marriott because we wanted to vacation regularly at SurfWatch and Barony Beach Club but we wanted occasional exchanges, too. The Disney timeshare (DVC) model was to me always the ideal model, i.e. a points-based product that allowed for internal exchanges in which you choose the resort, the check-in day/date, the number of nights, and the size and view of the unit, and II hadn't EVER given me all of those variables with exchanges. As far as I'm concerned, knowing full well that Marriott's business interest will always be a priority for them and their shareholders, Marriott's DC was the perfect marriage of what I owned and what I wanted.

As for changing the direction of Vistana's integration into the DC, I think that unless you can prove with a lawsuit that Marriott is flagrantly violating your ownership rights, the ship has long sailed for you to stop Marriott at this late date. If they've already announced the Abound name and are already using printed materials in their sales presentations, I'd guess that they've already received the approvals and authorizations that they need to push forward. I expect that as soon as they've worked out the IT issues that are obviously plaguing them, you'll see an abrupt change to your owner's website and you'll find the legal documents there. One of those will be the Enrollment Agreement that you and every other Vistana owner will have to sign in order to participate, and by signing it you'll all be agreeing to the terms and conditions of the program. Scour that thing and every other legal thing they make available - because that's where you'll find any first inklings of your ownership rights being violated! (And believe me, we Marriott owners did exactly that and couldn't find anything nefarious despite all of your same concerns being raised when we were facing the same substantial change in 2010.)

I do wish all of you very good luck in learning about what's being put on the table, and I hope that more of you rather than fewer find real usage value in it.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 21, 2022)

timsi said:


> I do not think you understand. According to the resort rules :
> 
> "Home Resort Float Period means the period during which all Network Members *owning* VOIs at a particular Home
> Resort have the *exclusive right to compete to reserve* the use of Vacation Periods within their Season and Unit type
> ...



The words "*Members owning *at a particular *Home Resort* have the *exclusive right to compete* to reserve."  This is really important legal language.

How does transferring a unit to an exchange like Abound make MVC or any other entity an *owner *(of a deed) with an *exclusive* *right *to compete to reserve? If it is an* exclusive right* doesn't that mean excluding others and only that right belongs to the owner?


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## Eric B (Jun 21, 2022)

Another possible interpretation is that someone booking a stay with AC/DC points is not actually "reserving a week" at any particular home resort, but instead making an exchange into an availability that was reserved by either an owner who had the exclusive right to book it or by the Network Operator using to its powers to book availability for bulk deposits in anticipation of owner usage.  IMHO it's to early to tell due to the lack of the actual provisions that will govern Abound.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 21, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> As for changing the direction of Vistana's integration into the DC, I think that unless you can prove with a lawsuit that Marriott is flagrantly violating your ownership rights, the ship has long sailed for you to stop Marriott at this late date. If they've already announced the Abound name and are already using printed materials in their sales presentations, *I'd guess that they've already received the approvals and authorizations that they need to push forward. I expect that as soon as they've worked out the IT issues that are obviously plaguing them, you'll see an abrupt change to your owner's website and you'll find the legal documents there. One of those will be the Enrollment Agreement that you and every other Vistana owner will have to sign in order to participate, and by signing it you'll all be agreeing to the terms and conditions of the program*. Scour that thing and every other legal thing they make available - because that's where you'll find any first inklings of your ownership rights being violated! (And believe me, we Marriott owners did exactly that and couldn't find anything nefarious despite all of your same concerns being raised when we were facing the same substantial change in 2010.)



This is really important to know! Were unenrolled MOC OF owners required to sign these documents to use the website? They are not participating in DP. What about the 40% that don't participate in DP? As a resale owner we may not be offered to enroll but will need access to the website to reserve our deeded ownership. They cannot block access to our deed reservations and force us to sign away our owner rights.

Not too late. They have not published the rules and we have not signed anything. We already have our OF reservation in the system for 2023 and our next res is not until 2024. So we do not have to sign anything right away.  Just need to make MF payments and we can call or mail those in if needed until our lawyer can review.

My fear is that the fine print will be embedded in this new system and too many owners will be dazzled by "free enrollment" that they won't understand the implications of the owner rights they are signing away.

Caveat Emptor.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 21, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> This is really important to know! Did unenrolled MOC OF owners have to sign these documents? They are not participating in DP.
> 
> Not too late. They have not published the rules and we have not signed anything. We already have our OF reservation in the system for 2023 and our next res is not until 2024. So we do not have to sign anything right away.  Just need to make MF payments and we can call or mail those in if needed until our lawyer can review.


No. When the DC was introduced to us Marriott Weeks owners it was an opt-in with eligibility rules and it required us to sign the Enrollment Agreement that stipulates the t&c's. It still works that way for Marriott owners - if you want in then you go through the enrollment process, if not, you don't. I expect the same will be true of Vistana's integration.

There was one concerning thing in the original documents that we noticed immediately - one of the enrollment t&c's was that owners would not vote against the interests of the DC during any of the annual voting actions that came before them. We'd never found evidence (not for lack of trying) that it was formally legally challenged but it was discussed at great length as a red flag in the early days. Eventually after a year or so (long after it had been the topic of dissent) that stipulation disappeared from the t&c's with no explanation from Marriott. (And notably, none of that first year's Annual Meeting packages, released in Nov/Dec following the DC implementation that prior Jun, contained language stipulating that agreement t&c.)

What I mean by "it's too late" is, it's too late for a TUG discussion to stop Marriott from pushing forward with Vistana owners' integration in Abound. Of course it's not too late at all for any Vistana owners to decide whether or not to participate, and if it gives you any comfort the same is still true for Marriott owners. When the DC was introduced to us we were charged a one-time Enrollment Fee and the only deadline we faced in the enrollment process was that the initial Enrollment Fee could change. It doesn't appear that Vistana owners will be charged that fee, so I'd guess that enrollment will remain available to you on the same eligibility terms for as long as you own the intervals that are eligible at the outset.

It's a very good idea to have your lawyer review whatever documents become available.


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## timsi (Jun 21, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> This is really important to know! Did unenrolled MOC OF owners have to sign these documents? They are not participating in DP.
> 
> Not too late. They have not published the rules and we have not signed anything. We already have our OF reservation in the system for 2023 and our next res is not until 2024. So we do not have to sign anything right away.  Just need to make MF payments and we can call or mail those in if needed until our lawyer can review.



Regardless how many people sign the Abound agreement, there will be more than enough people who will not be members (resale owners) so Marriott will not be off the hook . It would also be extreme IMO to use that as an opportunity to try to change rules that are VSN or resort specific, it would infuriate and wake up  more people and I am not even sure it would stand if it does not go through the proper procedures.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 21, 2022)

@SueDonJ Thank you. That is very sound advice and it is great to know how DP enrollment worked in the past.  I suspect that once the documents are available, this thread will easily jump past 100 pages as everyone evaluates for red flags.

We own OF and will continue to use our ownership. I suspect most WKORV &  N OF owners are like me - why pay a premium to buy and MF if you are not going to use it?  There may be off years when we cannot use, but it would be a much better value to rent it out and then use the cash to rent elsewhere rather than risk a devaluation of not getting the exact unit, view or week we want with DP/Abound.

So even if OF owners enroll, the actual deposits could be small.  The biggest fear as I demonstrated earlier is that it doesn't take many OF owners opting to deposit and MVC electing for prime week reservations to disrupt existing owner availability when you already have 50 weeks of deeded OF owners vieing for 20 or so prime summer and whale weeks. I don't mind if deeded owners use SOs because it doesn't impact our ability to access prime weeks - it makes it easier. This is why Abound is worrying.


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## dsmrp (Jun 21, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> ...
> As a resale owner we may not be offered to enroll but will need access to the website to reserve our deeded ownership. They cannot block access to our deed reservations and force us to sign away our owner rights.



Marriott has said they will retain the VSN system for those that do not want to participate in Abound. Except for all the IT problems,  I haven't seen anything that would prevent owners from making VSN or home resort reservations. I sincerely hope the reservation problems this spring was an anomaly, and a result of very very  poor implementation of IT backend changes needed to prep & transition to future Abound platform.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 21, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> We own OF and will continue to use our ownership. I suspect most WKORV &  N OF owners are like me - why pay a premium to buy and MF if you are not going to use it? ...



I'm not sure I understand this comment about MF's but want to be clear about one other thing:

The only Destination Club members who pay MF's based on DC Points are the Trust Members who purchase DC Points. Those of us who enrolled our Weeks to be able to exchange via the DC Exchange Company (or use any of the other Points-based offers for which we're eligible,) pay the same MF's for our Weeks as every non-enrolled owner does. My ownership consists of Weeks at SurfWatch and Barony Beach Club which I have chosen to enroll; the only MF's I pay are those assessed to every like Weeks Owners at those resorts, enrolled or not.

Until now an initial one-time Enrollment Fee has been charged to Marriott Weeks Owners, with certain sales-related actions resulting in that fee being waived. It doesn't appear that Vistana owners will be charged an Enrollment Fee (and some of us are very interested to see if the EF for Marriott Weeks will disappear going forward. I think it's only fair that it should.)

The only fee differential between enrolled and unenrolled like Marriott Weeks is, ongoing participation in the DC/Abound requires an annual Club Dues fee. Regardless of whether an owner elects to exchange an enrolled Week for Points or not, that fee is payable every year. Non-payment of the Club Dues fee will result in Marriott un-enrolling those Weeks, and re-enrollment will be subject to the eligibility terms in effect at the time of re-enrollment. (Think of this like the fee that II charges to be an individual member.)


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## DavidnRobin (Jun 21, 2022)

CalGirl meant the high MFs paid - along with buying OF at a premium.
I feel the same way - I don’t see a lot of WKORV OF owners opting for DC points or SOs.
As written- WKORV OF VOIs are limited (1800 per 50 weeks), and not complicated by Flex.
Other than direct Ownership by Vistana/Marriott (~10% of VOIs the last I saw), and the low potential of WKORV OF Owners of exchanging out of their ownership at 12-8 months (HomeResort period).

Where are these phantom WKORV OF weeks coming from that can be taken by others?

Granted - they can grab the desired weeks, but they can’t legally take more than they have control of (as described above).

I personally don’t think they would risk that type of exposure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SueDonJ (Jun 21, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> CalGirl meant the high MFs paid - along with buying OF at a premium.
> I feel the same way - I don’t see a lot of WKORV OF owners opting for DC points or SOs.
> As written- WKORV OF VOIs are limited (1800 per 50 weeks), and not complicated by Flex.
> Other than direct Ownership by Vistana/Marriott (~10% of VOIs the last I saw), and the low potential of WKORV OF Owners of exchanging out of their ownership at 12-8 months (HomeResort period).
> ...


Ah, I get it now about the view premium and MF's. The same is what owners of the highest-demand Weeks in Marriott might say, except that those are the enrolled Weeks that get the highest allocations of elected Points. Granted, that means nothing if your intended usage is home resort usage (in which case Abound might add nothing.) But again using my ownership as the example, we bought SurfWatch 3BR non-lock-off units with a view premium and their high MF's primarily for in-season home resort usage but also for occasional high-value exchange bait in II. The problem (for which my sales rep prepared me) is that because very few 3BR non-lock-offs exist in the timeshare world and get deposited into II, I NEVER got what I considered a like-for-like exchange via II. My Weeks had enough trade power to pull the highest-demand 2BR or smaller units, sure, but that was a size devaluation, and exchanging via II means giving up the view certainty. So for my purposes, the DC exchange can give me what II always gave me PLUS the added value of choosing the view and having a surplus of DC Points left over if I choose to exchange into a 2BR or smaller unit.

I also don't think that Marriott will risk the type of blatant exposure that some here are expecting. It's going to be interesting learning about what they are doing, though!


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## nuwermj (Jun 21, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The words "*Members owning *at a particular *Home Resort* have the *exclusive right to compete* to reserve."  This is really important legal language.
> 
> How does transferring a unit to an exchange like Abound make MVC or any other entity an *owner *(of a deed) with an *exclusive* *right *to compete to reserve? If it is an* exclusive right* doesn't that mean excluding others and only that right belongs to the owner?



An owner has the right to "assign" (a legal concept) all or some of their property rights. When a Vistana owner deposits their week into Abound, they assign their ownership rights to Abound. 

I think a problem with this long discussion is related to the question: when will Abound exercise it's assigned right to reserve time at a resort. If Abound waits and makes that reservation only when one of its members requests it, I don't see how the rule quoted above is violated. Vistana members remain free to reserve the time after the week is deposit.


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## Eric B (Jun 21, 2022)

nuwermj said:


> An owner has the right to "assign" (a legal concept) all or some of their property rights. When a Vistana owner deposits their week into Abound, they assign their ownership rights to Abound.
> 
> I think a problem with this long discussion is related to the question: when will Abound exercise it's assigned right to reserve time at a resort. If Abound waits and makes that reservation only when one of its members requests it, I don't see how the rule quoted above is violated. Vistana members remain free to reserve the time after the week is deposit.



The way I see it is pretty much in alignment with that thought.  Floating week owners get a blended value for the season when depositing in II and are purported to get a similar blended value when electing AC/DC points.  That only works if what is made available to Abound is representative of that blended value — weighting Abound availability to prime weeks would skew the values high.  Weighting the availability to non-prime weeks will also skew the values and might contribute in part to the “skim” that I’ve read about in the DC because the skew would be lower.  Makes me wonder if there would be no “skim” in a system where all ownerships are enrolled — there isn’t a skim in the other point systems I own in.


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## timsi (Jun 21, 2022)

nuwermj said:


> An owner has the right to "assign" (a legal concept) all or some of their property rights.



That is a rather novel concept in timesharing. If that's the legal basis, I assume  an owner could  also transmit all the rights when selling to another owner. Both would violate some internal rules but who cares, what is good for the goose is also good for the gander.


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## kozykritter (Jun 21, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Can we get to 100 pages on this one before the Abound rules are released?  It might take some work, but maybe....


I think there's a good chance because this thread killed of the Merger Speculation thread where all the action was....no posts since Friday. Jabberwocky, I'd like to revise my page guess on that thread down from 106


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## alexadeparis (Jun 21, 2022)

timsi said:


> That is a rather novel concept in timesharing. If that's the legal basis, I assume  an owner could  also transmit all the rights when selling to another owner. Both would violate some internal rules but who cares, what is good for the goose is also good for the gander.


The owner can assign all the rights they actually HAVE, (not the ones you WISH existed) as governed by the rules they are bound to by the terms of the owners assoc agreement. It’s clear you don’t understand the basic concept that has been explained to you now several times by several people. If you own a unit you can reserve a unit. The part you don’t seem to comprehend is that when other owners do the same, and reserve their week, it reduces the pool for you to reserve from NO MATTER WHAT method is used as I explained a few pages ago. Take a deep breath and realize you might actually be wrong in your thinking. I think you are misunderstanding the context of what ‘exclusive’ means. It doesn’t mean that NO units can be placed in exchange BY THE OWNER requesting the exchange until the check in date is 8 months or less.  It just means that if you own a unit you will be able to reserve ONE at the 12 to 8 month mark. It may not be the desired week but there will be ONE available for your use. The other units that owners have reserved or exchanged are GONE from that pool already but your ONE (as an extreme example) is still in the pool, all the way down to a pool of one, if you were the LAST person to reserve, you would have only that ONE unit option. In real life, this never happens and a small but measurable amount of inventory makes it to the VSN pool.

This new option changes literally nothing that was going on previously, except that instead of units being diverted to II a lot will be diverted to Abound Instead. It doesn’t change your right to reserve your unit. Will it possibly mean less to VSN? Over time probably, but we don’t know yet if resale is excluded, if it is, a huge chunk of people won’t be eligible. 12 years on, 40% of MVC legacy owners remain unenrolled, so again it’s too early to say, but I think after about 5 years the novelty of exchange into abound may wear off, especially if the knowledge of the MVC skim gets to the non tuggers. I still expect to find VSN inventory Without major problems, but then I am flexible with dates.


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## DavidnRobin (Jun 21, 2022)

They can assign what they ‘own’ (control) to Abound, but not what is used by Owners during Vistana HomeResort period (12-8 months) unless breaking their Legal obligation.

Not sure how this can be any clearer.


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## Eric B (Jun 21, 2022)

alexadeparis said:


> The owner can assign all the rights they actually HAVE, (not the ones you WISH existed) as governed by the rules they are bound to by the terms of the owners assoc agreement. It’s clear you don’t understand the basic concept that has been explained to you now several times by several people. If you own a unit you can reserve a unit. The part you don’t seem to comprehend is that when other owners do the same, and reserve their week, it reduces the pool for you to reserve from NO MATTER WHAT method is used as I explained a few pages ago. Take a deep breath and realize you might actually be wrong in your thinking. I think you are misunderstanding the context of what ‘exclusive’ means. It doesn’t mean that NO units can be placed in exchange BY THE OWNER requesting the exchange until the check in date is 8 months or less.  It just means that if you own a unit you will be able to reserve ONE at the 12 to 8 month mark. It may not be the desired week but there will be ONE available for your use. The other units that owners have reserved or exchanged are GONE from that pool already but your ONE (as an extreme example) is still in the pool, all the way down to a pool of one, if you were the LAST person to reserve, you would have only that ONE unit option. In real life, this never happens and a small but measurable amount of inventory makes it to the VSN pool.
> 
> This new option changes literally nothing that was going on previously, except that instead of units being diverted to II a lot will be diverted to Abound Instead. It doesn’t change your right to reserve your unit. Will it possibly mean less to VSN? Over time probably, but we don’t know yet if resale is excluded, if it is, a huge chunk of people won’t be eligible. 12 years on, 40% of MVC legacy owners remain unenrolled, so again it’s too early to say, but I think after about 5 years the novelty of exchange into abound may wear off, especially if the knowledge of the MVC skim gets to the non tuggers. I still expect to find VSN inventory Without major problems, but then I am flexible with dates.



To add a bit further to the discussion, my understanding is that Vistana used to let floating week owners book a week and deposit that week into II.  That method was changed over the years to alleviate the issue of floating week owners booking desirable weeks and depositing them in II because they have a higher value for use as exchange weeks.  The reason it was changed and the Network Operator began booking for bulk deposits in anticipation of owners desires to exchange was very likely to fix that - the result is that any deposits from resorts that are floating week resorts are ones that are reserved and made by the Network Operator on behalf of floating week owners - there is the possibility that a Lagunamar owner of a Christmas week could deposit the fixed week they own, but that would be the exception.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 21, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> they ‘own’ (control)


The definition of this is what seems to be in question. What is it they own/control? Only weeks in the Abound/DC trust? Or is it also inventory that owners elect Abound Club Points for prior to or even at the 12 month mark?


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## timsi (Jun 21, 2022)

Does anyone know if  there were any conflicts between the rules of DC and the rules of the resorts at the time the exchange was created, ? If yes, how were those conflicts resolved? 

At the time it was a lot simpler since they built on empty land.  It was also potentially more attractive to the Marriott owners since there was nothing in place to compare to or potentially damage. But in the case of Vistana, many people were sold on the idea of an internal network and, if they won't find the inventory they are used to (and owners are already reporting problems) they will lose a lot of value in Abound vs VSN. I really feel for those that paid a lot of money to buy Sheraton flex retail with the idea to go to Hawaii, only to see a couple of years later that not only their MF are more expensive, but they also lost  overnight 30 % in trading power.


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## timsi (Jun 21, 2022)

Eric B said:


> As a potentially interesting aside, I just did an update in Lagunamar and wound up getting an Encore package that guarantees me the right to purchase Aventuras points at the current pricing for the next 18 months.  It seems kind of interesting that they're giving that guarantee given the rumors from the sales folks that only AC/DC points will be sold once the new program is live.  Given that and the potential for a recession starting soon or in progress, it makes me wonder how things are really going to work out for enrolling the unwashed.



I am curious, how does it work with these packages? Do they guarantee a price and the current   bonuses you may have negotiated or it's just the price per point that is guaranteed? Do you have to go back to the resort to get the deal or you can do it over the phone from home anytime within the next 18 months?


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## daviator (Jun 21, 2022)

timsi said:


> I am curious, how does it work with these packages? Do they guarantee a price and the current   bonuses you may have negotiated or it's just the price per point that is guaranteed? Do you have to go back to the resort to get the deal or you can do it over the phone from home anytime within the next 18 months?


My understanding is that, when you go back to utilize the Encore Package stay, the same purchase deal that was originally offered will be available to you.  Sometimes they even sweeten the pot as they try to make a sale.  (Of course, the same deal might have been available even without the Encore Package, but part of the “schtick“ is that prices are always going up and the Encore Package lets you lock in this great deal.)

I assume you could call in and make the purchase in the interim if you were dying to do so.  I’m not sure why you’d want to do that, since you are going back to the resort to use the Encore package anyway, right?  And since they credit you for the cost of the encore package if you purchase, I suspect that buying before you use it would mean you’d get the credit but wouldn’t actually be able to use the stay.  I might be wrong on that.

I doubt that many people buy the encore package with the expectation they are going to come back and buy the deal they’ve just turned down.  They buy it because it’s a pretty good deal, and then Marriott/Vistana gets another shot at selling them something.  And – often enough to make the whole thing worthwhile for them – sometimes they are successful at making the sale on the return visit.

MVC says “we won’t sell anything but Abound once it launches.”  But I’ll bet there will be exceptions to thar.  If somebody wants to spend for the older product, I’ll be surprised if they can’t find a way to sell it to them, at least for the near term.  Returning Encore guests will likely be one of those exceptions, and they’ll sell it as “nobody else can still buy this product, but we'll sell it to you because you’re special!”


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## timsi (Jun 21, 2022)

daviator said:


> *I’m not sure why you’d want to do that, since you are going back to the resort to use the Encore package anyway, right? * And since they credit you for the cost of the encore package if you purchase, I suspect that buying before you use it would mean you’d get the credit but wouldn’t actually be able to use the stay.  I might be wrong on that.


First of all, I would not lose half a day of vacation and I would rather deal with the details of a contract from the comfort of my home and at my pace. Even if I still have to go to a presentation when I return to the resort,  it would be a short meeting I assume,  especially after they realize I just bought. I may have to meet a minimum spending on a new credit card, so I would not want to wait few more months. And of course, they may close a certain window, for example there may be a credible information that they will indeed stop converting certain contracts. And speaking of Aventuras, if they run out of inventory, they will indeed stop selling it and you may be offered a "superior" alternative that may not meet your needs or be more expensive in fact. Buying Encore at Lagunamar is a strong indication that they will still have it in the future but things can change in 18 months.


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## Eric B (Jun 21, 2022)

timsi said:


> First of all, I would not lose half a day of vacation and I would rather deal with the details of a contract from the comfort of my home and at my pace. Even if I still have to go to a presentation when I return to the resort,  it would be a short meeting I assume,  especially after they realize I just bought. I may have to meet a minimum spending on a new credit card, so I would not want to wait few more months. And of course, they may close a certain window, for example there may be a credible information that they will indeed stop converting certain contracts. And speaking of Aventuras, if they run out of inventory, they will indeed stop selling it and you may be offered a "superior" alternative that may not meet your needs or be more expensive in fact. Buying Encore at Lagunamar is a strong indication that they will still have it in the future but things can change in 18 months.



All the guarantee covers is the cost per point of Aventuras.  The cost of the Encore package included round trip transfers from the airport and 100K Bonvoy points.  I believe they’ll have enough points to sell based on the number of VOIs at Lagunamar they own though I don’t really plan on purchasing (of course).

My perspective is that I bought what I own to use where I own with some extra SOs to use in the VSN.  If I get access to Abound and find it useful, I might buy more - for any of you Marriott readers out there.  But the price point has to be right; my preference would be a reasonable enrollment fee for existing resale owners similar to the implementation of the DC and free for mandatory resales already in the system.  Bottom line is I can live without it — I’m Diamond level with Intercontinental and Wyndham and don’t need the Marriott titanium, which was their major selling point.  I already do quite well with vacation homes through ThirdHome.


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## DavidnRobin (Jun 21, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> The definition of this is what seems to be in question. What is it they own/control? Only weeks in the Abound/DC trust? Or is it also inventory that owners elect Abound Club Points for prior to or even at the 12 month mark?



Both, but not sure how there is Owner owned inventory at >12 months (except for fixed weeks).
I am looking at this as what HomeResort Owners can claim at 12-8 months - not Marriott/Vistana - it can only total 100%.
Going to be easy to tell from WKORV OF.

If it comes to it - going to contact a bunch of WKORV OF Owners (similar methods used for WSJ-VGV) and ask to document denials of use. I have about 8 so far (different dates) from online attempts. These owners IMO will be the most vocal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jabberwocky (Jun 21, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> I think there's a good chance because this thread killed of the Merger Speculation thread where all the action was....no posts since Friday. Jabberwocky, I'd like to revise my page guess on that thread down from 106


LOL…I guess we should have put real stakes up for this. Next wager will have to be for a beverage at the winners favorite resort.


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## alexadeparis (Jun 21, 2022)

Eric B said:


> To add a bit further to the discussion, my understanding is that Vistana used to let floating week owners book a week and deposit that week into II.  That method was changed over the years to alleviate the issue of floating week owners booking desirable weeks and depositing them in II because they have a higher value for use as exchange weeks.  The reason it was changed and the Network Operator began booking for bulk deposits in anticipation of owners desires to exchange was very likely to fix that - the result is that any deposits from resorts that are floating week resorts are ones that are reserved and made by the Network Operator on behalf of floating week owners - there is the possibility that a Lagunamar owner of a Christmas week could deposit the fixed week they own, but that would be the exception.


Right, and it was a firestorm when that changed, but the VSN rules are subject to change, as that situation demonstrated. I have a fixed week, fixed unit but I still get a blended unit in my season if depositing for exchange.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 22, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> Both, but not sure how there is Owner owned inventory at >12 months (except for fixed weeks).
> I am looking at this as what HomeResort Owners can claim at 12-8 months - not Marriott/Vistana - it can only total 100%.
> Going to be easy to tell from WKORV OF.
> 
> ...



Also check Marriott.com and track rental listings for prime weeks by MVC.  This should not be hard to track because if you know that <10% of OF units are owned by MVC and spread those out through weeks 1 - 50 odds (what owners reasonably can book competitively per the CC&Rs). The total number of weeks listed should not be greater than 10% and the weekly number of OF rentals should not exceed the average threshold during prime weeks. i.e.  a chart on the listings of prime weeks for rent on Marriott.com should not be greater than average spread. If it skews higher toward low demand weeks, that is fine because it means that they are making room for owners to use their deed during high demand.

How did you find out the number of OF weeks owned by MVC? I would like to do the same for WKORVN. More OF units but still should be doable since we know Flex units are not OF.


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## vikingsholm (Jun 22, 2022)

Ok, this question has probably been addressed but there are a lot of detailed posts here already and I haven't read them all due to the focus on Westin technicalities that I don't really know much about. So I'd appreciate if anyone can give a quick answer, since Marriott does not seem to have reached out to us Marriott owners yet with detailed info about how it affects us.

For Marriott owners who are enrolled, what happens with the DC? It sounds like it becomes renamed Abound and operates similar to how the DC did.

But for Marriott-only owners, do the Westin deposits that become points within Abound automatically show up as available to existing Marriott DC enrollees (I assume with less preferential date availability than for Westin owners), or do Marriott DC enrollees have to sign up for a newly merged Abound system that will include Westin deposits? If so, is there a fee for Marriott DC enrollees to do this?

Also, I would echo SueDonJ's prior post about how we had a lot of initial skepticism about the DC program, but many of us warmed up to it after trying it out and understanding it better. I was under the initial misconception that we had to choose to permanently convert our legacy weeks to points to enroll. But when I learned that it was an optional choice each year to use the existing week, enroll it for points, or rent it out, I understood the desirability better. It has been really great to have this flexibility. Because we own a quarter share of legacy Grand Residence club weeks that are enrolled, that gives us a lot of flexibility in using weeks vs converting to DC points vs renting each year. A lot of our stays are less than 7 days using the DC points, and the availability is better in the points system than for II exchanges for Marriotts generally as well.


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## remowidget (Jun 22, 2022)

vikingsholm said:


> since Marriott does not seem to have reached out to us Marriott owners yet with detailed info about how it affects us.


Marriott hasn't reached out to Vistana owners either. This is pretty much all speculation, with leaked info thrown in. That said, it doesn't sound like Marriott owners will be affected much, except you will have new options for booking into Vistana resorts as availability permits.


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## vikingsholm (Jun 22, 2022)

remowidget said:


> Marriott hasn't reached out to Vistana owners either. This is pretty much all speculation, with leaked info thrown in. That said, it doesn't sound like Marriott owners will be affected much, except you will have new options for booking into Vistana resorts as availability permits.


Thanks for responding!


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## DavidnRobin (Jun 22, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> How did you find out the number of OF weeks owned by MVC? I would like to do the same for WKORVN. More OF units but still should be doable since we know Flex units are not OF.



My number is a guesstimate now - the percentage come from Starwood/Vistana merger in 2014 (?).

There is apparently interest in this topic.
Not sure if WKORVN OF should be added as the number of OF VOIs are high, and Friday HR reservations are allowed whereas WKORV OF only has Sat and Sun reservation (8-12 months).

I am open to ideas.
Stay tuned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sharr7 (Jun 22, 2022)

Does HI keep online property records that would show current owner of each unit/week? Tedious but it could be done. Pretty sure I could do this for Virgin Grand-WSJ if I ever had a reason to.


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## kozykritter (Jun 22, 2022)

vikingsholm said:


> Ok, this question has probably been addressed but there are a lot of detailed posts here already and I haven't read them all due to the focus on Westin technicalities that I don't really know much about. So I'd appreciate if anyone can give a quick answer, since Marriott does not seem to have reached out to us Marriott owners yet with detailed info about how it affects us.
> 
> For Marriott owners who are enrolled, what happens with the DC? It sounds like it becomes renamed Abound and operates similar to how the DC did.
> 
> ...


From my understanding after two recent sales presentations, it's the MVC Exchange Company that is being renamed Abound. This is the place where enrolled owners weeks inventory is put once they are elected for DP in a given year and it is the same place that Vistana weeks inventory will be put when they elect for DP. I don't think it's function is changing at all, just its name. Brian Miller made it clear in his recent letter that there will be no incremental fee for enrolled Marriott owners (weeks/DC trust) to enjoy this new usage option of booking Vistana inventory.

Technically the DC trust inventory remains separate, bookable only by those with DC trust points and is unaffected by this renaming. In practice according to people in the know here, most of the DC trust inventory is actually moved over to the exchange company at 12 months and available for booking by those with elected DP as well as those with DC trust points. Marriott could reduce or stop the DC trust inventory transfers at any point in the future. I believe if you own both DC trust points and enrolled weeks then Marriott treats all of the points you own/elect as eligible to book DC trust inventory. It's essentially the same thing they're doing with dual owners of Vistana and Marriott and is the reason that I recently bought 1000 DC trust points to create the hybrid account and have any of my elected Vistana points be DC inventory eligible now and in the future in case they do actually reduce or stop their current inventory transfers to the exchange company.


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## timsi (Jun 22, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> Technically the DC trust inventory remains separate, bookable only by those with DC trust points ... I believe if you own both DC trust points and enrolled weeks then Marriott treats all of the points you own/elect as eligible to book DC trust inventory.


So there might be leakage between buckets. This may be  additional proof that they need to preserve the rights of the  owners during the home reservation period.


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## Eric B (Jun 22, 2022)

timsi said:


> So there might be leakage between buckets. This may be  additional proof that they need to preserve the rights of the  owners during the home reservation period.



The cited behavior on the part of Marriott is placing inventory owned by the trust into the Destination Club exchange.  It’s not reserving Vistana weeks during the Home Reservation Period.  I could just as plausibly use it as evidence that they should give me milk and cookies at bedtime.  I understand the concern expressed, but not everything is related to it.


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## timsi (Jun 22, 2022)

Eric B said:


> I could just as plausibly use it as evidence that they should give me milk and cookies at bedtime.


You are trying to trivialize something that may have more profound implications. 
If someone with just a few trust points can use ALL the points in the account to access the trust inventory, the 1/1 exchange theory goes to the bin.


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## Eric B (Jun 22, 2022)

timsi said:


> You are trying to trivialize something that may have more profound implications.
> If someone with just a few trust points can use ALL the points in the account to access the trust inventory, the 1/1 exchange theory goes to the bin.



I get that there is potential for a great deal of anxiety in the absence of actual reliable information.  I’m not too interested in speculating on what might happen and whether Marriott is the bogeyman because they behave in a way that hasn’t bothered current Marriott owners for the last decade. The data gathering proposed by some owners re: WKORV/N OF reservations sounds like it might be useful and there seems to be precedent for similar actions having an effect at WSJ VGV.  Is there anything you would propose to accomplish to address your concerns?


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## Hankmoon (Jun 22, 2022)

-


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## timsi (Jun 22, 2022)

I found something that, if I read it correctly,  seems to give them the latitude to do whatever they want with the inventory when it comes to exchanges.


"Bulk Banking for Anticipated External and Starwood Preferred Guest Program Exchanges. Network
Operator has the right, but not the obligation, to reserve a number of Floating Vacation Periods from time to time at
*any time after the beginning of the Home Resort Reservation Period*, and any unreserved Vacation Period after the
Home Resort Reservation Period, for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External
Exchange Program on behalf of Network Members based on Network Operator's determination, in its sole discretion,
*of anticipated Network Member demand to access an External Exchange Program or the Starwood Preferred Guest
Program*. Network Members may request an external exchange company assignment based upon the resort, unit
and season being assigned by the Network Member for an external exchange request."

I think this is in conflict with the home reservation clause but at least they have the leg to stand on, designed from the very beginning to give them maximum flexibility and no accountability.  Theoretically speaking, a millisecond after midnight they can block any or all the units and they seem to be within their rights to do so.  

Interesting to note, they do not even need to wait for the home owners to make the deposits, they can book based on their "anticipation".


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## Eric B (Jun 22, 2022)

timsi said:


> I found something that, if I read it correctly,  seems to give them the latitude to do whatever they want with the inventory when it comes to exchanges.
> 
> 
> "Bulk Banking for Anticipated External and Starwood Preferred Guest Program Exchanges. Network
> ...



Let me guess, was that in Section 4.2.c. of the VSN Rules?









						Marriott Abound
					

But this is the exact same thing. In what you are saying it doesn't matter really if you release the 25 fourth of July weeks at month 12 or month 8. Each has access to their own inventory.  In practice it is the same thing. The moment you make a reservation through VSN, you lose you home week...




					tugbbs.com


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## alexadeparis (Jun 22, 2022)

timsi said:


> I found something that, if I read it correctly,  seems to give them the latitude to do whatever they want with the inventory when it comes to exchanges.
> 
> 
> "Bulk Banking for Anticipated External and Starwood Preferred Guest Program Exchanges. Network
> ...


we tried to explain this 4 pages ago
because of this, you won't see much difference in the availability in my opinion. There are still the same number of unit weeks and the same number of reservations. We are adding another "bucket" for inventory, but now there is less in each bucket. It really is that simple. This is NOT a doomsday scenario, this is going to be a blip on the radar for the next few years, and then after that, i predict that the novelty will wear off and people will revert, for the most part, to going to their favorite places. I for one will not be electing for points every year if it means I don't get to go to St John. There is nothing in Marriott that enticing for me, that frankly, I haven't already been to using II or some other means.


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## timsi (Jun 22, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Let me guess, was that in Section 4.2.c. of the VSN Rules?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, I clearly did not read that part.


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## Eric B (Jun 22, 2022)

The key item in that section is that the bulk reservations and banking have to be for the purpose of meeting VSN member anticipated demand for external exchanges or Bonvoy conversion.  They aren't for rental by Marriott or for meeting the demand side from external exchanges.  They can do that under other portions of the rules later, outside of the Home Resort Reservation Period.


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## timsi (Jun 22, 2022)

alexadeparis said:


> we tried to explain this 4 pages ago
> *because of this, you won't see much difference in the availability in my opinion*. There are still the same number of unit weeks and the same number of reservations. We are adding another "bucket" for inventory, but now there is less in each bucket. It really is that simple. This is NOT a doomsday scenario, this is going to be a blip on the radar for the next few years, and then after that, i predict that the novelty will wear off and people will revert, for the most part, to going to their favorite places. I for one will not be electing for points every year if it means I don't get to go to St John. There is nothing in Marriott that enticing for me, that frankly, I haven't already been to using II or some other means.


The developer has the latitude to book the better weeks of the season and give them to an exchange and there is nothing you can do about it. It does not even need to wait for you to deposit, they can  "anticipate" it will eventually happen. They do not need to own a single Vistana unit and Vistana can still be in Abound before the owners deposit anything.  If they give better units/weeks to Abound, they will create more exchanges in Abound and artificially depress VSN.  They can also make the week ownership less powerfull and the window of opportunity to book much tighter. 
The owners did not complain about this issue when Interval was getting fewer good deposits because there was more left for the home owners (and probably for the developer to rent). But this also means the pendulum can swing  in the other direction.


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## Eric B (Jun 22, 2022)

timsi said:


> The developer has the latitude to book the better weeks of the season and give them to an exchange and there is nothing you can do about it.



... if there is anticipated demand away from the better weeks of the season to use external exchanges or for Bonvoy point conversion.  They could, in their discretion anticipate such demand, but are very likely going to look to historical reservation trends and act to preserve the value of their corporate good will.


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## rcv82 (Jun 22, 2022)

timsi said:


> Operator has the right, but not the obligation, to reserve a number of Floating Vacation Periods from time to time at
> *any time after the beginning of the Home Resort Reservation Period*, and any unreserved Vacation Period after the
> Home Resort Reservation Period, for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External



If they follow this, it does imply that they could not take inventory prior to the owners at least getting a crack at it at exactly 12 months out. If there is evidence that they do, I think that would be a violation of this clause. But they clearly do not have to wait until 8 months out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 22, 2022)

.


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## CPNY (Jun 22, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I think it may have been posted in another group first and then shared in his group? I also think it was posted here on TUG before it was shared by Chris in the FB group.


Yes, I pulled it from the Aruba Surf Club FB group first, then saw here posted here already.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 22, 2022)

Eric B said:


> ... if there is anticipated demand away from the better weeks of the season to use external exchanges or for Bonvoy point conversion.  They could, in their discretion anticipate such demand, but are very likely going to look to historical reservation trends and act to preserve the value of their corporate good will.


Or not...they will have no history of Abound demand because it is new.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 22, 2022)

timsi said:


> You are trying to trivialize something that may have more profound implications.
> If someone with just a few trust points can use ALL the points in the account to access the trust inventory, the 1/1 exchange theory goes to the bin.


It's not correct that a Marriott DC member who owns a combination of purchased DC Trust Points and DC Exchange Points (from enrolled/elected Weeks) allows that member to access intervals conveyed and available through the Trust up to the total value of the combined points. It's a talking point that many sales reps claim, that purchasing Trust Points will "supercharge" your Exchange Points. But it doesn't happen in practice - for one thing it can't happen because it would be a flagrant violation of the inventory controls! But for another, our confirmations indicate on them whether the inventory comes from the Trust or the Exchange Company and the overwhelming majority of confirmations show the Exchange Company. I think the only "supercharging" that happens when an Enrolled/Exchange Member buys Trust Points is that their status likely changes to give them more advantageous usage rules, but it's definitely something that the sales reps misrepresent often.

It is correct that Marriott generally makes all inventory including Trust inventory available via the DC Exchange Company, meaning, the majority of DC reservations are confirmed via the DC Exchange Company and not the DC Trust (and inventory in the Exchange Company can be booked with a combination of Trust and Exchange Points.) Most Exchange Company inventory is available when the 13-mos Reservation Windows open but a few select highest-demand intervals aren't moved from the DC Trust and made available via the exchange company until the 12-mos Reservation Window.


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## timsi (Jun 22, 2022)

Eric B said:


> ... if there is anticipated demand away from the better weeks of the season to use external exchanges or for Bonvoy point conversion.  They could, in their discretion anticipate such demand, but are very likely going to look to historical reservation trends *and act to preserve the value of their corporate good will*.


After being at quite a few sales meetings and after seeing that  rules are designed to favor them virtually all the time I am not sure I see their priorities the same way as you.


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## timsi (Jun 22, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Or not...they will have no history of Abound demand because it is new.


This is a good point but it does not even matter, they have the discretion. There is no rule that they have to look at the historical trends, even if there were any.  If they gradually move more and more good inventory to About in "anticipation of the demand", guess what, the demand will be there, the Vistana owners will have to deposit and book however they can if they want to go to their favorite resorts.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 22, 2022)

It sounds like MVC cannot make any Vistana available until after the home resort opens at 12 mos. Whether it is milliseconds? or days later?  or cherry picking best weeks to squeeze owners onto the trust? or fair?...who knows  

No matter what they do, this weaseling in by MVC to the deeded owner pool is in poor taste, I do not trust them to do the right thing especially because their lawyers found (or recently added) a loophole to get their way even it it has never been done that way before and steps on deeded owners. So will not be adding to our ownership until they prove themselves otherwise.


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## timsi (Jun 22, 2022)

rcv82 said:


> If they follow this, it does imply that they could not take inventory prior to the owners at least getting a crack at it at exactly 12 months out. If there is evidence that they do, I think that would be a violation of this clause. But they clearly do not have to wait until 8 months out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I do not see how you can have "evidence". Theoretically speaking, they can book all the units a split second after midnight , they are within their right to do it. Think about all the nights when nobody could book anything because of the IT issues. So many free units for them to choose from!


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## timsi (Jun 22, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> *It sounds like MVC cannot make any Vistana available until after the home resort opens at 12 mos.* Whether it is milliseconds? or days later?  or cherry picking best weeks to squeeze owners onto the trust?...who knows
> 
> No matter what they do, this weaseling in by MVC to the deeded owner pool is in poor taste, I do not trust them to do the right thing so I will not be adding to our ownership. Slippery slope.


It is now becoming obvious to me why they could not start at 13 months the booking period in Abound for the Vistana resorts.


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## kozykritter (Jun 22, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> It's not correct that a Marriott DC member who owns a combination of purchased DC Trust Points and DC Exchange Points (from enrolled/elected Weeks) allows that member to access intervals conveyed and available through the Trust up to the total value of the combined points. It's a talking point that many sales reps claim, that purchasing Trust Points will "supercharge" your Exchange Points. But it doesn't happen in practice - for one thing it can't happen because it would be a flagrant violation of the inventory controls! But for another, our confirmations indicate on them whether the inventory comes from the Trust or the Exchange Company and the overwhelming majority of confirmations show the Exchange Company. I think the only "supercharging" that happens when an Enrolled/Exchange Member buys Trust Points is that their status likely changes to give them more advantageous usage rules, but it's definitely something that the sales reps misrepresent often.
> 
> It is correct that Marriott generally makes all inventory including Trust inventory available via the DC Exchange Company, meaning, the majority of DC reservations are confirmed via the DC Exchange Company and not the DC Trust (and inventory in the Exchange Company can be booked with a combination of Trust and Exchange Points.) Most Exchange Company inventory is available when the 13-mos Reservation Windows open but a few select highest-demand intervals aren't moved from the DC Trust and made available via the exchange company until the 12-mos Reservation Window.


It seems to me the only way to know for sure whether or not what they represented is true would be what happens if they at some point put the barrier back up for DC inventory and then see what an owner with both enrolled points and trust points could book. Perhaps transactions labeled as DC trust are ones that are made trust points utilizing inventory that still is in the trust and those that say exchange company involved trust inventory and elected inventory that's been moved into the exchange company. That would possibly explain why so few transactions right now say DC trust because that inventory gets moved constantly into the exchange company. All just guesses from what I've observed in posts on this site. It all seems very nebulous! I guess the trick is to get it in writing from someone ;-)


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## pchung6 (Jun 22, 2022)

If Abound is just another external exchange system, like Interval, is it possible Abound will mostly only get low season deposits just like Interval? VSN will keep most prime weeks as we are today? If that's the case, it will be the best outcome for Vistana owners.


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## dsmrp (Jun 22, 2022)

timsi said:


> It is now becoming obvious to me why they could not start at 13 months the booking period in Abound for the Vistana resorts.


I think this is what I and others have said a few pages back.
It's obvious you and @CalGalTraveler distrust Marriott.  And if I were an owner at a high MF resort, I might be suspicious too.  But without a preponderance of evidence and Abound program TBA information,  I'm trying to keep an open mind, even tho' I think VSN availability at 8 months may be less than before.


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## timsi (Jun 22, 2022)

dsmrp said:


> I think this is what I and others have said a few pages back.
> It's obvious you and @CalGalTraveler distrust Marriott.  And if I were an owner at a high MF resort, I might be suspicious too.  But without a preponderance of evidence and Abound program TBA information,  I'm trying to keep an open mind, even tho' I think VSN availability at 8 months may be less than before.



The TBA information will not change my opinion that the timeshare companies have too many levers to screw up the individual owner.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 22, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> It seems to me the only way to know for sure whether or not what they represented is true would be what happens if they at some point put the barrier back up for DC inventory and then see what an owner with both enrolled points and trust points could book. Perhaps transactions labeled as DC trust are ones that are made 100% with trust points and those that are made with a mix of points or elected points say exchange company but they're still accessing DC trust inventory because of the way it's handled right now. It all seems very nebulous! I guess the trick is to get it in writing from someone ;-)


The member selects which Points in his/her account are applied to a DC reservation, and the confirmations for reservations indicate clearly whether the inventory has been pulled from the DC Trust or the DC Exchange Company. The data needed to debunk the sales-speak about "supercharged" points is in plain view and we've had ten-plus years of experience to collect and analyze it.

It is possible to "know for sure" that when someone tells you that buying Trust Points will somehow "supercharge" (or whatever other stupid word they use) your Exchange Points from enrolled/elected Weeks such that the total combination can be used to book inventory directly from the DC Trust, they don't know what they're talking about. It's very basic: Trust Members (owners of purchased Trust Points) have access to inventory conveyed to and available through the DC Trust and the DC Exchange Company; Exchange Members (owners of enrolled Weeks which can be elected for Exchange Points) have access to only the inventory available through the DC Exchange Company. That's what the governing documents stipulate and that's what the practical experience of using the DC supports.

I'm not saying that Exchange Members do not and cannot access DC Trust-conveyed inventory. They can, but not unless/until that inventory is moved into the DC Exchange Company. We have closely watched inventory machinations since Day One, because Marriott people had the same concerns about inventory mismanagement by Marriott that are being raised now by Vistana people. We've learned a great deal about inventory machinations over these years, and tops on that list is that sales reps many times have no practical experience with the DC and they misunderstand the DC nuances at least as often as owners may.

There's never been any indication, either, that specific inventory will be moved from the Trust to the Exchange Company on demand if/when a member who owns Trust and Exchange Points requests it (as opposed to that inventory not being moved if a member with only Exchange Points requests it.) The only evidence we've seen that certain inventory is held for Trust Members is that certain highest-demand inventory isn't moved from the Trust to the Exchange Company until the 12-months Reservation Window opens. It doesn't appear to have anything to do with any "supercharging" variables at work, but rather an effort to preserve Trust Members' access to highest-demand/lowest-supply intervals.


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## kozykritter (Jun 22, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> The member selects which Points in his/her account are applied to a DC reservation, and the confirmations for reservations indicate clearly whether the inventory has been pulled from the DC Trust or the DC Exchange Company. The data needed to debunk the sales-speak about "supercharged" points is in plain view and we've had ten-plus years of experience to collect and analyze it.
> 
> It is possible to "know for sure" that when someone tells you that buying Trust Points will somehow "supercharge" (or whatever other stupid word they use) your Exchange Points from enrolled/elected Weeks such that the total combination can be used to book inventory directly from the DC Trust, they don't know what they're talking about. It's very basic: Trust Members (owners of purchased Trust Points) have access to inventory conveyed to and available through the DC Trust and the DC Exchange Company; Exchange Members (owners of enrolled Weeks which can be elected for Exchange Points) have access to only the inventory available through the DC Exchange Company. That's what the governing documents stipulate and that's what the practical experience of using the DC supports.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your years of observation and wisdom. I just feel like there's more to it but that's my own personal perspective.


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## Venter (Jun 23, 2022)

timsi said:


> You are trying to trivialize something that may have more profound implications.
> If someone with just a few trust points can use ALL the points in the account to access the trust inventory, the 1/1 exchange theory goes to the bin.


????????


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 23, 2022)

timsi said:


> The TBA information will not change my opinion that the timeshare companies have too many levers to screw up the individual owner.



Well said. The fact they are utilizing these levers (and lawyers) to find a way to gain more levers is not a good sign.  How does this build trust? A number of Westin OF owners I know are different from your regular timeshare buyer because these owners bought OF developer as generational deeds in anticipation of passing these units down to their kids.  I know one owner who owns WKORV OFC retail and bought another WKORVN OF retail so they could pass a unit down to each of their two children.

Aside from home week deed pool issues, as an VSN system owner it is not a good sign that they are devaluing SOs because that is part of our mandatory resale rights. So owner deeded rights are affected in multiple ways.

MVC is playing with fire if they monkey with the OF owners rights. Vistana knew it and stayed away because they did not add OF to the Flex trust.


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## Venter (Jun 23, 2022)

MVC is playing with fire if they monkey with the OF owners rights. Vistana knew it and stayed away because they did not add OF to the Flex trust.

I think they did not add it because it made them more bucks to try and sell them again rather than put them into the Flex pool.  If I understand the experts from other threads on this topic of why it is not in Flex correctly.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 23, 2022)

Venter said:


> MVC is playing with fire if they monkey with the OF owners rights. Vistana knew it and stayed away because they did not add OF to the Flex trust.
> 
> I think they did not add it because it made them more bucks to try and sell them again rather than put them into the Flex pool.  If I understand the experts from other threads on this topic of why it is not in Flex correctly.


It was about selling those OF weeks for much higher prices than they could get from the same number of Home Options. They even said this on a number of investor calls. If they were concerned about the legality of the trusts with OF, the issue is also there with the other views and nothing stopped them from adding those to Flex.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 23, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> Thanks for sharing your years of observation and wisdom. I just feel like there's more to it but that's my own personal perspective.


I get it, but it really doesn't help to suspect Marriott of violating inventory controls in specific ways when all indications are that they haven't historically and aren't currently doing so in those ways.

It makes perfect sense to speculate on what they may try to do and to consider how that might be a violation, sure, and in that respect this thread and others like it are a perfectly valid means to prepare for how ownerships might be impacted by what's coming down the pike. (And, these types of threads are excellent clearinghouses to focus attention on the legalities after whatever is coming finally gets here.) But these threads also highlight the fear of the unknown and how it fosters distrust that may not be warranted, so why contribute to that mindset without justification?

When it comes to this little sidebar we're having specifically, it is simply not true that purchasing Destination Club Trust Points will "supercharge" the Points that are allocated when an Exchange Member elects Exchange Points for enrolled Weeks such that a combination of those Points can directly access inventory that has been conveyed to the DC Trust. If it could happen, which it can't and it doesn't, but if it could, what would be the purpose of Marriott going to the trouble of developing the entirely separate component of the Destination Club that is the Exchange Company? Wouldn't they better have served their purposes (i.e. selling the points product) if "enrollment" meant only that a Trust Points purchase would be necessary to allow access to the Destination Club using existing Weeks?


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 23, 2022)

@dioxide45 Good to know. AFAIK they have not proposed to put OF into the DP (or Flex) Trust. This is about deed enrollment which has never been done before.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 23, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> I get it, but it really doesn't help to suspect Marriott of violating inventory controls in specific ways when all indications are that they haven't historically and aren't currently doing so in those ways.
> 
> It makes perfect sense to speculate on what they may try to do and to consider how that might be a violation, sure, and in that respect this thread and others like it are a perfectly valid means to prepare for how ownerships might be impacted by what's coming down the pike. (And, these types of threads are excellent clearinghouses to focus attention on the legalities after whatever is coming finally gets here.) *But these threads also highlight the fear of the unknown and how it fosters distrust that may not be warranted, so why contribute to that mindset without justification?*



But _*MVC *_*is *playing with deeded owner inventory and the SO program, are they not?

Loss of trust may not be warranted?!!? MVC made this announcement with zero written program details. Heck even HGVC Max rollout (which has not been great), at least had a Q&A, a web page with descriptions and sent emails out to owners on the same day.  Mark Wang, CEO of HGV even responded with clarifying details to an owner in 3 days (letter was shared by that owner online) when concerns and questions were raised. None of this delivered by MVC.

It is obvious this announcement was window dressing for investor day; owners are an afterthought to MVC by the way they acted on this rollout. They talk about re-engaging customers - pure marketing BS.

Watch how they act, not what they say. We have had limited MVC interactions as a Vistana owner - weeks of crappy IT with no response when owners could not book their week, poor telephone response times and untrained agents,  zero customer engagement so far on Abound except empty announcements with threats to devalue what I own. Nice way to start a relationship MVC.

I realize that this may not have been your experience as a long-time MVC owner, but this is mine as a new member of the MVC family.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 23, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> But _*MVC *_*is *playing with deeded owner inventory, are they not?
> 
> Loss of trust may not be warranted?!!? MVC made this announcement with zero written program details. Heck even HGVC Max rollout (which has not been great), at least had a Q&A, a web page with descriptions and sent emails out to owners on the same day.  None of this delivered by MVC.
> 
> So let's talk about justification and how to build trust with owners. It is obvious this announcement was window dressing for investor day; owners are an afterthought to MVC by the way they acted on this rollout. They talk about re-engaging and engaging Vistana customers - pure marketing BS for investor day.  Watch how they act, not what they say. We have had limited MVC interactions as a Vistana owner - Crappy IT, poor telephone response,  zero customer engagement so far on Abound except empty announcements with threats to devalue what I own. Nice way to start a relationship.


There is yet to be an "official" roll-out/implementation date of whatever Abound will mean for Vistana owners. From my viewpoint, you all have gotten infinitely more advance notice than what we Marriott owners got at the inception, which was an abrupt change to the owners' website shortly after midnight on Sunday, 6/20/10, with a very short blurb on that website and links to all of the Destination Club Trust and Exchange Company governing documents. We were well into the first year after the rollout before we were able to understand most of the major changes, and well into the third year before the practical aspects of the minor nuances were understood. Marriott was roundly and well-deservedly lambasted for that rollout without any warning, and now they're being lambasted for an early warning before the official rollout. They can't win support either way! That's the nature of change.

So in my opinion with respect to Abound, Vistana owners have already gotten more from Marriott than they ever gave Marriott owners. As far as them ensuring that their investors' concerns are taken into consideration, I don't have a problem with that. If Marriott didn't take their investors' concerns into consideration, none of us could be certain of the company's viability and thus none of us certain about our ownerships. They're a public company indebted to their investors - that's basic business. Of course they also owe their "customers" including those who have purchased timeshare interests from them but IMO unless/until they remove deeded rights from those owners, unwarranted criticism and charges that they can't be trusted don't help anybody.

I've been reading this forum for a long time. Marriott has been criticized since the day it absorbed Vistana, in some cases deservedly but in other cases not. And I wonder at how quickly some Vistana owners have forgotten that they had legitimate reasons to criticize Starwood for years prior to Marriott entering the picture.

* Most of what I've contributed to these threads has been related to the enrollment of existing sold Weeks side of the house, less about Trust Points supported by intervals conveyed to the Trust (and the little sidebar in which I've commented about suspecting Marriott of something they're not doing is specific to which inventory DC Exchange Points can directly access.) So I'm not quite sure what your comment about Marriott playing with deeded owner inventory means, if you want to clarify?


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## kozykritter (Jun 23, 2022)

Everyone has a right to their own opinions and feelings here. They also have the right to use the ignore feature if someone is working their last good nerve


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## dsmrp (Jun 23, 2022)

timsi said:


> The TBA information will not change my opinion that the timeshare companies have too many levers to screw up the individual owner.


If you really feel this way, why do you continue to own timeshare(s) ? You must have found value despite the risk of getting "screwed". If the risk is higher now, you can avoid it by getting out. I prefer to mitigate it, by looking at other ways I can use my units which are of value to me, compared to hotel rates.  A risk is a possibility that something might occur. It doesn't mean that it will.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 23, 2022)

MVC is clearly intending to utilize more levers than Vistana ever did. The Vistana system never allowed non-owners access until 8 months. II deposits were never the best weeks, units nor high volume as MVC is proposing.

Abound changes to the prime week owner pool to exploit a loophole designed to support II deposits were not part of the original agreement.  Perhaps the way they manage Abound home week withdrawals is not terrible as many believe.

But I worry about the next change ("BBound")... and the next ("CBound Luxury OF Trust") We know they are profit-driven. What is there to legally to stop them every 3 - 5 years from creating new exchanges and new trusts until there is no home deeded availability left except the leftovers.  We will ride this ride as long as it is viable and fits our travel plans. If they give us an offer we cannot refuse, we may ride that ride. Or we will exit and move on. Our resale OF deed was a fraction of retail, we have ownership in other TS systems so we have little risk if we do nothing and continue to use or rent it out because that option is free.


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## timsi (Jun 23, 2022)

dsmrp said:


> If you really feel this way, why do you continue to own timeshare(s) ? You must have found value despite the risk of getting "screwed". If the risk is higher now, you can avoid it by getting out. I prefer to mitigate it, by looking at other ways I can use my units which are of value to me, compared to hotel rates.  A risk is a possibility that something might occur. It doesn't mean that it will.


Just because you find some value in your units it does not mean you have to accept everything they through at you or just walk away. Thank you for your question.  I think I pay the fair share for my vacations to Marriott by paying thousands of dollars in MF every year, you bet I want to maximize that and make sure I do not get screwed. 

Comments like yours confirm to me why the timeshare companies get away with almost everything.


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## Eric B (Jun 23, 2022)

I truly enjoy being an informed consumer and maximizing the efficiency of my vacation dollars, but recognize some of the great deals I get are due to the marketing expenses developers make.  I don't own the most efficient weeks in Vistana for long term use, but it does strike me that I am still doing quite well with inexpensive SO bookings into great resorts, recognizing that my MF dollars are only paying for what I own - it's tough to say I'm getting less than my VSN dues worth out of the exchanges within the system.  I kind of hope that Marriott keeps up its money grubbing ways because they benefit me, even as a resale owner.  Others may feel differently and things may change, of course, but that's the nature of TS ownership.


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## timsi (Jun 23, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> MVC is clearly intending to utilize more levers than Vistana ever did. The Vistana system never allowed non-owners access until 8 months. II deposits were never the best weeks, units nor high volume as MVC is proposing.
> 
> Abound changes to the prime week owner pool to exploit a loophole designed to support II deposits were not part of the original agreement.  Perhaps the way they manage Abound home week withdrawals is not terrible as many believe.
> 
> But I worry about the next change... and the next. We know they are profit-driven. What is there to legally to stop them every 3 - 5 years from creating new exchanges and new trusts until there is no home deeded availability left except the leftovers.  We will ride this ride as long as it is viable and fits our travel plans. If they give us an offer we cannot refuse, we may ride that ride. Or we will exit and move on. Our resale OF deed was a fraction of retail, we have ownership in other TS systems so we have little risk if we do nothing and continue to use or rent it out because that option is free.


It is an interesting situation if Marriott decided to use the clause regarding the bulk deposit. Is an exchange program that includes only resorts managed by Marriott external? How so, it does not really pass the smell test.  Remember, the clause is: “Bulk Banking for Anticipated External and Starwood Preferred Guest Program Exchanges. Network Operator has the right, but not the obligation, to reserve a number of Floating Vacation Periods from time to time at any time after the beginning of the Home Resort Reservation Period, and any unreserved Vacation Period after the Home Resort Reservation Period, *for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External Exchange Program on behalf of Network Member*s based on Network Operator's determination, in its sole discretion, of anticipated Network Member demand to access an External Exchange Program or the Starwood Preferred Guest Program.”



Instead of clarifying rules that are in clear conflict, instead of limiting the potential damage to a main feature of the timeshare ownership, the home resort priority, Marriott may have decided to extend a rule that had a limited scope and take it to a whole new level.


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## daviator (Jun 23, 2022)

alexadeparis said:


> There is nothing in Marriott that enticing for me, that frankly, I haven't already been to using II or some other means.


That's my conclusion as well.  Being really blunt, if I'd wanted to buy into Marriott's crummy resorts, I would have.  But I didn't, I bought Westin.  So while I won't promise never to elect Abound points if we get a burning desire to travel someplace where MVC has a property, I doubt that will happen often, if at all.  

I like having more options, options are always good.  But I don't really see myself taking advantage of them, I am happy with the VSN properties.  I wish there were plans for additional Westin Vacation Club properties, but I feel like that is unlikely.  VSN is what it is and isn't likely to grow further.  We're lucky we got Cabo.


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## kozykritter (Jun 23, 2022)

It seems odd to me to be angry at Marriott for  trying to integrate its acquisition in a way that boosts its bottom line. Isn't that why companies make acquisitions to begin with?  To fuel growth, cut costs by consolidation of administrative and back office functions, etc? It'd be different if Marriott did some kind of hostile takeover of SVO/Vistana but as we all know, Starwood spun off its timeshare unit and then immediately sold it to ILG. Marriott ostensibly had nothing to do with it, purchasing ILG years later. Maybe the anger should go back at Starwood as the initiator who cast us adrift.  I count myself lucky that an industry-leading company like Marriott ended up with our beloved timeshare system as opposed to one that has a history of troubled acquisitions and questionable decisions affecting owners. It had to be someone, so thank goodness it was the likes of them.

Similar to others here, I am so happy that I chose Vistana to be my primary timeshare company and where I made my big investment. I've used II and other methods to access Marriott properties over time but I never considered investing any timeshare dollars in them as my Vistana ownership was meeting my needs. But now that they are linked up and inevitably becoming more and more integrated as time goes on, it made sense to me to make a small investment in Marriott points recently to have ownership in both systems and set myself up to fully participate in any changes that come along on either side while also protecting my big Vistana investment as consolidation continues. For me and how I own and how I travel, it all feels like upside as things progress, yet I recognize that that is not the same situation that everyone is experiencing. We can't deny that change has and will continue to happen and that it is beyond our control, so my plan is to roll with it and make whatever feels like the best decisions to fit my budget and travel desires and go from there.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 23, 2022)

I do not think anger is the right word. Disappointed and losing trust because they are starting to act like Diamond. I thought MVC was a class act and I would expect better of them. 

An announcement is an announcement in this age of social media. A lack of transparency with your customers who pay the bill's and believing they wont find out, or will not care indicates they are out of touch with their base.


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## kozykritter (Jun 23, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I do not think anger is the right word. Disappointed and losing trust because they are starting to act like Diamond. I thought MVC was a class act and I would expect better of them.
> 
> An announcement is an announcement in this age of social media. A lack of transparency with your customers who pay the bill's and believing they wont find out, or will not care indicates they are out of touch with their base.


Yes, I definitely agree they could have at least given us some kind of general outline communication back when they did the soft launch as opposed to just letting us hang and twist in the wind with speculation the only thing we have to hang on to. And why did MVC owners get some type of calming letter about Abound released to them recently while Vistana owners hear nothing? We are the ones that are actually having the biggest change in all of this so you would think that they would want to calm us down first! I really think they've sorely misjudged the sentiment of Vistana owners towards this whole process and Marriott in general, especially after the SPG integration debacle. It will likely cost them some revenue down the line.

That said, I wouldn't put them down anywhere near Diamond. Still a quality company, just with some out of touch communication decisions in this integration process.


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## vikingsholm (Jun 23, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> From my understanding after two recent sales presentations, it's the MVC Exchange Company that is being renamed Abound. This is the place where enrolled owners weeks inventory is put once they are elected for DP in a given year and it is the same place that Vistana weeks inventory will be put when they elect for DP. I don't think it's function is changing at all, just its name. Brian Miller made it clear in his recent letter that there will be no incremental fee for enrolled Marriott owners (weeks/DC trust) to enjoy this new usage option of booking Vistana inventory.
> 
> Technically the DC trust inventory remains separate, bookable only by those with DC trust points and is unaffected by this renaming. In practice according to people in the know here, most of the DC trust inventory is actually moved over to the exchange company at 12 months and available for booking by those with elected DP as well as those with DC trust points. Marriott could reduce or stop the DC trust inventory transfers at any point in the future. I believe if you own both DC trust points and enrolled weeks then Marriott treats all of the points you own/elect as eligible to book DC trust inventory. It's essentially the same thing they're doing with dual owners of Vistana and Marriott and is the reason that I recently bought 1000 DC trust points to create the hybrid account and have any of my elected Vistana points be DC inventory eligible now and in the future in case they do actually reduce or stop their current inventory transfers to the exchange company.


Thank you for answering.

I guess it still leaves me a bit confused though. I have never been confident that Marriott DC points are fully maintained separately for those with a trust designation vs those which came from legacy enrollment. Over the years, opinions have varied all over the map about this on TUG, and while Marriott tries to explain it, many have been skeptical and it's not transparent to us what goes on behind the scenes. At a certain point, I ceased to care, because as a legacy owner it seemed I most always had access to units that I wanted in the DC program if I planned ahead far enough.

So I'm not sure how all this will work additionally when Vistana units are thrown in the mix.

I may have to wait for the actual rollout to get the really specific questions that I have in my head answered, by experimenting with the new system myself.

Those questions are more about what specifically happens with:

Westin/Sheraton owners having access to Marriott DC (future Abound) units, and with what lead time restrictions or other types of restrictions.

Marriott owners having access to Westin/Sheraton deposits of units converted to points within Abound, and with what restrictions.

Owners who own both systems having access within Abound, and with what various restrictions.

--- and whether there are different types of ownerships in each system (like Marriott legacy enrolled vs. trust, and whatever Westin's different ownership categories are) that will impact the type of access and specific rules that impact ability to use those points for a reservation for owners with different portfolios in these systems.

If I'd had my preference, I would have preferred no merger at all. Only an integration with Hyatt would have gotten me interested.


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## tamu_bu (Jun 23, 2022)

Part of me wonders if there aren't some MVC moles in this forum charged with floating trial balloons in order to suss out the most likely objections from the smartest of the Vistana owner population thus preparing their marketing and identifying weak spots in their structure. [taps nose]


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## Hankmoon (Jun 23, 2022)

From what I can see, the distrust is unwarranted. Every Vistana owner will be allowed to use their deeded week exactly as before. If this changes, then this thread will have more meaning. Then the people who are threatending lawsuits can hire their attorneys.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 23, 2022)

Agree it is early and we need to see how it will work. However the notion that every Vistana owner will be allowed to use their deeded week exactly as before is TBD. Will be watching for the following:

1) If I will not be able to use my deeded week during the prime week I usually reserve because MVC starts pulling inventory for Abound milliseconds before owners are able to reasonably access at midnight. That's an unfair advantage beyond the odds of a regular owner and violates the spirit of the CC&Rs.

2) If I book at midnight and am not able to continue to get the best views because non-owners in Abound are taking those best views because of the millisecond timestamp, that's also a scenario where deeded owners will call foul.

3) If SO traders cannot find  inventory as before so the value of the mandatory deed declines because they hobble the SO program.

OTOH, perhaps Abound could be good for deeded owners if it relieves some of the 1 - 50 pressure because some owners go elsewhere during high demand weeks, deeded owners get the weeks they want with fewer owners vying for prime weeks, and owners get the best room view priority with less competition since Abound would be a lower view priority for room placement. See the St. Thomas Thread in MVC.


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## timsi (Jun 23, 2022)

I do not understand how anyone can claim with a straight face that everything will stay  the same. 12 months before check in a number of units will be available to members who are not owners at those resorts. How many such units will be available to non-owners? It will be determined by Marriott  since they will make the allocation for each week. How will the allocation be made? You tell me. 

As far as I am concerned Marriott can remove the home priority rule completely because the idea of exclusive rights to book during that period will be a joke.


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## jabberwocky (Jun 23, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> OTOH, perhaps Abound could be good for deeded owners if it relieves some of the 1 - 50 pressure because some owners go elsewhere during high demand weeks, deeded owners get the weeks they want with fewer owners vying for prime weeks, and owners get the best room view priority with less competition since Abound would be a lower view priority for room placement. See the St. Thomas Thread in MVC.


One thing we haven't really considered is the differential that MVC places on prime weeks vs. low weeks.  Booking through MVC via points will take a significant amount of points, so it may push Abound users to book in lower demand periods.  Vistana owners who convert will be out of the pool, so it may get a bit easier to book some prime weeks on a relative basis.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 23, 2022)

timsi said:


> Comments... confirm to me why the timeshare companies get away with almost everything.



This is a valid point. Just to compare, there was a rumor on the HGVC Max thread that Diamond Max owners could make OGS reservations at 10 months to HGVC ahead of the 9 month trading window (comparable to the SO window.) HGVC owners went bat sh*t crazy. So much so that the CEO responded and tamped down the rumor.

I have not heard much pushback from SO traders on MVCs proposed change so far which is much worse by affecting home priority. How will WKV owners respond when they find their DP points are insufficient for Hawaii and SO inventory dries up because Abound has grabbed most of the weeks that would have been deposited in the SO program?


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## timsi (Jun 23, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> One thing we haven't really considered is the differential that MVC places on prime weeks vs. low weeks.  Booking through MVC via points will take a significant amount of points, so it may push Abound users to book in lower demand periods.  Vistana owners who convert will be out of the pool, so it may get a bit easier to book some prime weeks on a relative basis.


What does history show in MVC? Are the high demand weeks easy to book because they cost more points or the differential is not high enough to discourage booking those weeks first?


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## jabberwocky (Jun 23, 2022)

timsi said:


> What does history show in MVC? Are the high demand weeks easy to book because they cost more points or the differential is not high enough to discourage booking those weeks first?


I don’t own Marriott, but a prime week at WKORV OF 2BR is purportedly 9975 points. At around $0.63 per point in MF, that means an Abound points owner would be paying the equivalent of over $6k.  

That is pretty hefty- I don’t see many people using their Abound points to book units for renting out to others, so that should eliminate some competition.


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## VacationForever (Jun 23, 2022)

Good point. I avoid high cost, i.e. points, requirements and as such I only book shoulder season.   I try my luck with II for high season weeks.


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## timsi (Jun 23, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> I don’t own Marriott, but a prime week at WKORV OF 2BR is purportedly 9975 points. At around $0.63 per point in MF, that means an Abound points owner would be paying the equivalent of over $6k.
> 
> That is pretty hefty- I don’t see many people using their Abound points to book units for renting out to others, so that should eliminate some competition.


At the same time, it is more important what happens in reality. 
51 and 52 for example are very expensive in the Caribbean because a good chunk of the population who wants to escape winter can only travel during those weeks during the winter months. You gave an example that is extreme, the question is if 10% or 20% difference in price between the highest demand weeks vs other weeks within the same season will deter people from booking. I suspect it does not.


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## timsi (Jun 23, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> This is a valid point. Just to compare, there was a rumor on the HGVC Max thread that Diamond Max owners could make OGS reservations at 10 months to HGVC ahead of the 9 month trading window (comparable to the SO window.) HGVC owners went bat sh*t crazy. So much so that the CEO responded and tamped down the rumor.
> 
> I have not heard much pushback from SO traders on MVCs proposed change so far which is much worse by affecting home priority. How will WKV owners respond when they find their DP points are insufficient for Hawaii and SO inventory dries up because Abound has grabbed most of the weeks that would have been deposited in the SO program?


Most HGVC owners would consider Diamond a  downgrade so they probably pay more attention to the potential of losing any inventory to the  Diamond owners. Vistana on the other hand is comparable to Marriott. My expectation is that a lot of Vistana owners that are actually looking forward to it will be disappointed in terms of inventory (fragmented in too many buckets) and cost. 
Also the Marriott owners are more numerous and I suspect they outnumber the Vistana owners  in the social media so sometimes it is hard to know what the "pure" Vistana owners actually think.


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## DavidnRobin (Jun 24, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> Both, but not sure how there is Owner owned inventory at >12 months (except for fixed weeks).
> I am looking at this as what HomeResort Owners can claim at 12-8 months - not Marriott/Vistana - it can only total 100%.
> Going to be easy to tell from WKORV OF.
> 
> ...



Well…
There appear to be 2023 June WKORV OFD 1Bd villas available.
Also some in May 2023.

Life maybe okay after all 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## daviator (Jun 24, 2022)

timsi said:


> I do not understand how anyone can claim with a straight face that everything will stay  the same. 12 months before check in a number of units will be available to members who are not owners at those resorts. How many such units will be available to non-owners? It will be determined by Marriott  since they will make the allocation for each week. How will the allocation be made? You tell me.
> 
> As far as I am concerned Marriott can remove the home priority rule completely because the idea of exclusive rights to book during that period will be a joke.


I am reluctant to jump into this argument, but you keep making this claim and I think it is unfounded.

The only units which will be made available at 12 months to members who are not owners will be from owners who have elected to "donate" their usage to the Abound pool for that year instead of using it.  So the effect on other owners is not different than if those owners had decided to use their home resort ownership that year.  And I don't think you'd be complaining about owners choosing to use their ownership at their home resort.  That's all that is happening here, except that they're allowing someone else to use it instead of using it themselves.  The usage is exactly the same, just different bodies occupying the beds.

You might not like that for some reason, but it strikes me as 100% fair.  As an owner, I can use my ownership almost any way I want to, including by allowing someone else to use it.  That's all the Abound program does.

Now if MVC is taking more weeks than have been elected to the Abound pool and making those available to be reserved by non-owners, that would potentially be a problem, but we have no evidence that they will do that, and I think it's unlikely.

Also remember that MVW owns lots of weeks/VOIs, and those have usage rights too.  They can do all the things with those VOIs that we can, including electing to put them in the Abound pool instead of using them.  That also doesn't impact the rest of us.  They were already using those VOIs in other ways, like renting them on Marriott.com, using them for Encore packages, maybe selling them to II, etc.

I feel like there is a lot of unnecessary angst here.  But the proof, as they say, will be in the pudding, and the pudding's not yet been served.


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## timsi (Jun 24, 2022)

daviator said:


> I am reluctant to jump into this argument, but you keep making this claim and I think it is unfounded.
> 
> The only units which will be made available at 12 months to members who are not owners will be from owners who have elected to "donate" their usage to the Abound pool for that year instead of using it.  So the effect on other owners is not different than if those owners had decided to use their home resort ownership that year.  And I don't think you'd be complaining about owners choosing to use their ownership at their home resort.  That's all that is happening here, except that they're allowing someone else to use it instead of using it themselves.  The usage is exactly the same, just different bodies occupying the beds.
> 
> ...


In a floating system Marriott will allocate the number of units for each bucket for every week of the season. Theoretically speaking, any bucket that owns more than 1/52 of the inventory could be given the inventory for 100% of any single week of the year. You may say that is theoretically possible, but a reputable company would not do that. I can tell you that several years in a row the platinum owners at Lagunamar could not book 51 and 52 at midnight 12 months before check in or any time after that, even if they were supposed to have access to about ½ of those units (the rest are fixed). If you search social media this was well documented at the time. If the regular platinum owners could not book a single unit at Lagunamar for 51 and 52, where did all the units go? Well, it is not hard to imagine when Vistana owns a decent amount of inventory at Lagunamar. During the same period guests reported that they booked  the Explorer package for those event weeks and nights could also be found  in Marriott.com. Nothing for the owners. So Vistana decided to retain 100% of the bookable inventory for 51/52 (50% of all units at the resort) even if Vistana only owned a small fraction of the overall inventory.

Because of the experience, because Marriott has the means and the motives to tilt the inventory of the best weeks of the season towards the buckets that are more profitable for them (rental or the bucket they currently sell) and because the whole legal environment has been set up to favor the developer, you bet I do not trust them with a fair allocation of the inventory and I would like the owners to preserve strong protection of the home reservation period. Anyone can prove me wrong and show me any public statement or internal rule that explains how Marriott divides the inventory. Maybe they do it proportional to the number of units each bucket owns for that week. If that is the case, they can easily say so. In the absence of clear and verifiable rules, let me continue to be suspicious about it.



VKORV-N oceanfront is very popular it seems among some owners here. Again, theoretically speaking, Marriott has the means now to assign to About 100% of the inventory of any week. What will the VKORV-N OF owners do in  case they want that week (say certain owners can only travel during that week) and is no longer available in Vistana? They will have to deposit in About and book it through About or they will book the same week at another resort. Since the inventory will eventually be there (just as they “estimated”) , according to their interpretation of the rules, Marriott has done nothing illegal. This is not how the system was designed to work and how it was sold. As I said before, they are leveraging an obscure rule to build a whole new system and that leads to a significant degradation of the home reservation priority rule.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 24, 2022)

daviator said:


> I am reluctant to jump into this argument, but you keep making this claim and I think it is unfounded.
> 
> The only units which will be made available at 12 months to members who are not owners will be from owners who have elected to "donate" their usage to the Abound pool for that year instead of using it.  So the effect on other owners is not different than if those owners had decided to use their home resort ownership that year.  And I don't think you'd be complaining about owners choosing to use their ownership at their home resort.  That's all that is happening here, except that they're allowing someone else to use it instead of using it themselves.  The usage is exactly the same, just different bodies occupying the beds.
> 
> ...



You are correct on the one-or-one; head-for-head. No one is disputing that. But what you have described is an exchange like II or SO trading where the owner surrenders certain rights such as the right to pick the week and assign guest certificates. With guest certificates, owners are still liable for any damages to the unit and reservations still remains under the account of the owner to control (with a GC attached).

Exchanges are different. Non-owners never get the same reservation priority and views as deeded owners. Most exchange weeks are not peak weeks. SOs are the leftovers after owners have made their choice.

Do you think II exchanges should now have the same view and room priority for your Marriott resorts because an owner deposited it into II? Or if an owner gave up their week for SOs? If so, that would be a massive change to how things are currently done.  Why is Abound any different? Especially since it is leveraging the exchange clause in the CC&Rs and acts like an exchange?

And why would such a change be fair to owners who pay full price at almost $3000/week compared to many deeded traders who pay half that amount for the same week? Why would anyone be so stupid as to buy a deed at a prime oceanfront resort on Maui or St. John  if anyone could arbitrage for lower MF in the desert or Orlando and get the same week and view priority via an exchange?


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 24, 2022)

timsi said:


> ... *for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External Exchange Program on behalf of Network Member*s based on Network Operator's determination, in its sole discretion, of anticipated Network Member demand to access an External Exchange Program or the Starwood Preferred Guest Program.”



The word "External" is really interesting. Have they defined "External" in the legal docs? if we follow this to the letter of the legal terms is II even considered "External" anymore since it is owned by MVC?  It clearly supports withdrawals for the "Starwood Preferred Guest program." but "Starwood Preferred Guest Program" is not Abound. Would VSN SO traders also be entitled to such inventory if Abound inventory is withdrawn under that banner if it doesn't qualify as "External."


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## Eric B (Jun 24, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The word "External" is really interesting. Have they defined "External" in the legal docs? if we follow this to the letter of the legal terms is II even considered "External" anymore since it is owned by MVC?  It clearly supports withdrawals for the "Starwood Preferred Guest program." but "Starwood Preferred Guest Program" is not Abound. Would VSN SO traders also be entitled to such inventory if Abound inventory is withdrawn under that banner if it doesn't qualify as "External."



I wouldn't get terribly hung up on what the wording for the VSN Rules is currently as they don't reflect the existence of Abound (and the version quoted didn't used SPG rather than Bonvoy).  I expect that the same principles will apply once it is updated, treating Abound (a.k.a., the Marriott Destination Exchange Program) as an external exchange program in addition to II, the current External Exchange Program referred to in the rules.

BTW, there are a few WKORV/N weeks showing up in II cited in the Sightings forum at the 10-month point - the postings document when they are in Vistana and Marriott preference.  If I were running things for the bulk banking function for the Network Operator, I would look to historical information on the extent to which those weeks are booked during those preference periods as an indication of demand on the part of Vistana and Marriott owners for those availabilities in order to inform the anticipated demand for the weeks that could be at least partially moved to Abound rather than deposited with II.  It's a fairly obvious information source, though would not be a perfect one-for-one as some owners would continue using II either because they aren't eligible to enroll in Abound but have preference in II or other owners that don't elect to convert to Abound points.  I would anticipate growing pains for the next couple of years particularly since there is the overlay of post-pandemic travel demand skewing things.  Just my thoughts....


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 24, 2022)

I would be interested as to whether these are VSN club rules which can be changed annually vs. condominium owner legal docs. Would have to pull the resort condo owners docs to be sure. Mandatory rights and recognition of VSN are baked into the owners condo association docs and that is why Vistana could never remove that right.  They tried. If these rules are baked there, it is a similar legal position.

re: 10 month. Are those peak season weeks? (i.e. summer and whale season or even July 4, Presidents day?) or are these 10 month shoulder/low?  If primarily the latter I would expect some availability in exchanges for owner deposited weeks per the exchange rules.


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## Eric B (Jun 24, 2022)

Under Section 9.3 of the VSN Rules, quoted in post # 164 of this thread, the Network Operator has the power to change the rules from time to time at its own discretion.  In practice, it doesn't seem to get done annually; the current version is from 2015, though I believe there have been editorial changes made since then.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 24, 2022)

Section 9.3 also says, "*Except as provided in the Resort Documents,* the Network Operator has the power..."  The resort documents are where mandatory resale rights and the recognition of VSN reside for WKORV / N. There also may be clauses in those Resort Docs that describe owner priority rights to access deeded home weeks.


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## timsi (Jun 24, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The word "External" is really interesting. Have they defined "External" in the legal docs? if we follow this to the letter of the legal terms is II even considered "External" anymore since it is owned by MVC?  It clearly supports withdrawals for the "Starwood Preferred Guest program." but "Starwood Preferred Guest Program" is not Abound. Would VSN SO traders also be entitled to such inventory if Abound inventory is withdrawn under that banner if it doesn't qualify as "External."


The documents define an external exchange as  external to VSN.  I think this is why they couldn't  kill VSN, it is kept as a reference point. 

You are bringing up a good point. Interval is controlled by Marriott. To me however it is still external because it includes a large number of resorts outside their control. Still more murky than at the time they wrote the rule of the bulk deposits.   Vistana is obviously internal however, Abound only includes a relatively small number of resorts, all managed by Marriott. They control ,the all the inventory (the buckets for each week, the internal and external deposits), the management, the governing documents, virtually EVERYTHING. To me the spirit of that clause is not respected at all, they will claim they can do whatever they want but it was very limited in scope at the time.


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## divenski (Jun 24, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> ...
> 
> And why would such a change be fair to owners who pay full price at almost $3000/week compared to many deeded traders who pay half that amount for the same week? Why would anyone be so stupid as to buy a deed at a prime oceanfront resort on Maui or St. John  if anyone could arbitrage for lower MF in the desert or Orlando and get the same week and view priority via an exchange?



When using Abound Points, I don't think any one will be getting a cheap "exchange" into a prime week. As someone else noted, and which is also true for MVC Maui weeks, a 2-brdm OF unit can cost close to 10K points for a week. It will take 2-3 weeks of low cost units and their MFs to have that many points.

From this cost perspective, the existing SO system is more unfair to owners of high demand weeks. For MVC and the DC, I think the general consensus is that it shifted power/benefits towards higher end owners and away from lower end traders. But of course, MVC gets their take by being in the middle.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 24, 2022)

@divenski you and @jabberwocky raise a good point about the points requirements. The reason I don't mind the SO program is because those selections are made after owners have first rights to reserve and owners still keep view priority based on time-stamp.  It is a fair system because owners decide what gets deposited into the SO program and each 1 -50 floating owners competes at midnight.

Will Abound offer seasonality for WKORV / N trades in Hawaii? If not, this may push Abound traders to OV and IV lower point options. What happens to unreserved Abound weeks?

One reason for Abound not cherry-picking peak season is that MVC does not make more money by taking those weeks for enrolled users. MVC may approach this cautiously similar to II - we just don't know yet.


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## Ulrichdl (Jun 25, 2022)

Eric B said:


> But see, Section 4.2.c. of the VSN rules, which reads (emphasis added):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Eric B, Im curious about the current developer pricing for Aventuras.  Would you mind sharing your offer??


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## remowidget (Jun 25, 2022)

Ulrichdl said:


> Eric B, Im curious about the current developer pricing for Aventuras.  Would you mind sharing your offer??


We did an update in May and they wanted about $55k for 148,100 every year, which is the options of our weeks ownership.  I don't remember what all the bonuses were because I wasn't really interested. I was just curious how much more it was than what we had paid 12 years ago. We paid about $35k a week for Lagunamar Platinum lockoff weeks.


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## Eric B (Jun 25, 2022)

I believe it was about $0.45 per option for an annual, higher for a biennial.


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## remowidget (Jun 26, 2022)

Ulrichdl said:


> Eric B, Im curious about the current developer pricing for Aventuras.  Would you mind sharing your offer??


I found this:


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## VacationForever (Jun 26, 2022)

remowidget said:


> I found this:
> 
> View attachment 58962


This is pretty pricey.  How long ago was this?  Someone posted that they own 276,000 Westin Flex and indicated that it will convert to just under 10K Abound/DC points.  That would be close to $100K for that ownership.


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## jabberwocky (Jun 26, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> This is pretty pricey.  How long ago was this?  Someone posted that they own 276,000 Westin Flex and indicated that it will convert to just under 10K Abound/DC points.  That would be close to $100K for that ownership.


At $0.449 per point it’s closer to $125k after closing costs etc are added in. Of course if you are trading in a Nanea week or similar I’m guessing you get to apply that towards your purchase price. But yeah - it’s not cheap.


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## Jayco29D (Jun 26, 2022)

In reading all the various threads about the integration, it has me wondering why anyone would want to buy trust points (resale or retail) or enroll their weeks. It sounds like only deeded week owners get room placement priority. If Abound is simply an exchange company, then why bother since it costs so much to get enrolled into it.


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## VacationForever (Jun 26, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> In reading all the various threads about the integration, it has me wondering why anyone would want to buy trust points (resale or retail) or enroll their weeks. It sounds like only deeded week owners get room placement priority. If Abound is simply an exchange company, then why bother since it costs so much to get enrolled into it.


I am not sure how you get this impression.  Trust points reservations are treated the same as deeded owner reservations.  For instance, I have gotten ocean view rooms at NCV when I used trust points as opposed to no view when I had exchanged through II.


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## Patplh (Jun 26, 2022)

Hi, new member here, but svo/vistana owner since 2004 (Westin Kierland). We were planning to deposit our 2022 week with interval international. Any idea of the likelihood that an Abound exchange will be an option in 2022 so I should consider not depositing it with interval? In reality, we've already been on 2 nice vacations this year, so I mainly want to deposit it so I can extend it's usage a few years.  Thanks for any insight. 
Patty


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## dsmrp (Jun 26, 2022)

Patplh said:


> Hi, new member here, but svo/vistana owner since 2004 (Westin Kierland). We were planning to deposit our 2022 week with interval international. Any idea of the likelihood that an Abound exchange will be an option in 2022 so I should consider not depositing it with interval? In reality, we've already been on 2 nice vacations this year, so I mainly want to deposit it so I can extend it's usage a few years.  Thanks for any insight.
> Patty


I recall earlier posts from sales mtgs that Abound would be effective for 2023 weeks.
Hope others will chime in from their more recent mtgs.


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## jabberwocky (Jun 26, 2022)

Patplh said:


> Hi, new member here, but svo/vistana owner since 2004 (Westin Kierland). We were planning to deposit our 2022 week with interval international. Any idea of the likelihood that an Abound exchange will be an option in 2022 so I should consider not depositing it with interval? In reality, we've already been on 2 nice vacations this year, so I mainly want to deposit it so I can extend it's usage a few years.  Thanks for any insight.
> Patty


Why don’t you bank your SO in Vistana?  That will extend it by two years and is cheaper than paying the exchange fee in II.


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## jabberwocky (Jun 26, 2022)

dsmrp said:


> I recall earlier posts from sales mtgs that Abound would be effective for 2023 weeks.
> Hope others will chime in from their more recent mtgs.


That was my understanding. What does have me concerned is I believe you have to elect for the following year no later than September 30.

I know the official launch is supposed to be in July or August (I will point out we were originally told May or June when the soft launch started in March). If it does get launched this summer you should be fine. If there are any more delays (probably IT related) then you may not have much time to elect for Abound points.


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## kozykritter (Jun 27, 2022)

Patplh said:


> Hi, new member here, but svo/vistana owner since 2004 (Westin Kierland). We were planning to deposit our 2022 week with interval international. Any idea of the likelihood that an Abound exchange will be an option in 2022 so I should consider not depositing it with interval? In reality, we've already been on 2 nice vacations this year, so I mainly want to deposit it so I can extend it's usage a few years.  Thanks for any insight.
> Patty


The message from the beginning is that Abound/Vistana integration will launch this year for 2023 use year bookings. I had this confirmed in two recent sales presentations this month. It won't be an option for your 2022 week.


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## kozykritter (Jun 27, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> That was my understanding. What does have me concerned is I believe you have to elect for the following year no later than September 30.
> 
> I know the official launch is supposed to be in July or August (I will point out we were originally told May or June when the soft launch started in March). If it does get launched this summer you should be fine. If there are any more delays (probably IT related) then you may not have much time to elect for Abound points.


The September election deadline (or October for the highest elite levels) has been in place for Marriott enrolled weeks owners to elect points since they first formed the DC trust in 2010 so they are just keeping the same structure for Vistana owners that elect points. I'm guessing the reason they have owners do it so far in advance is to be able to move their following year inventory into the pool because everyone wants to book in advance, not wait until January 1st to book that years inventory.


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## dsmrp (Jun 27, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> That was my understanding. What does have me concerned is I believe you have to elect for the following year no later than September 30.
> 
> I know the official launch is supposed to be in July or August (I will point out we were originally told May or June when the soft launch started in March). If it does get launched this summer you should be fine. If there are any more delays (probably IT related) then you may not have much time to elect for Abound points.


Yup it will be tight if Marriott keeps same deadlines for Vistana enrollment & election. And I think Sept 30 was for up to Executive level. Presidential and Chairman has another month to October 30/31.


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## dsmrp (Jun 27, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> Why don’t you bank your SO in Vistana?  That will extend it by two years and is cheaper than paying the exchange fee in II.


@Patplh , the banking deadline is June 30, 4 more days. I'm assuming you are not Vistana 3* or 4* etc, in which you'd have at least until Sept 30 to bank.


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## Patplh (Jun 28, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> Why don’t you bank your SO in Vistana?  That will extend it by two years and is cheaper than paying the exchange fee in II.


I like the option to try new places. We are also on the east coast with 11 and 14yo so we need the larger pool of options bc everything (flights, hotel, school schedule) need to align perfectly to minimize missing school (just starting to be an issue with my older one starting high school). We've also had great luck with II - elite mx vacation, last minute feb vacation ski trip within driving distance, so it's worked out for us even if it costs a bit more. Thanks for the comment. I actually didn't realize banking with vistana was a 2 year extension too.


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## Patplh (Jun 28, 2022)

dsmrp said:


> @Patplh , the banking deadline is June 30, 4 more days. I'm assuming you are not Vistana 3* or 4* etc, in which you'd have at least until Sept 30 to bank.


Yes, I'm clearly an indecisive procrastinator  thank you for the reminder that it's actually not July 1, which is the date I had in my head.


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