# Beware of the Mayan Palace



## kingme

We recenlty spent a week at the MP RM. We have been interested for a while in joining a timeshare versus having just points through another program. We decided to join the presentation at which time we were told we would get 10% off the total bill at the end of the stay for attending. 

We spent most of the day with our sales Rep Kristen. We went through the complete presentation and asked mulitple questions. On this day we were told by her that we would purchase one week and be given another week. We weren't sure we were ready to spend this kind of money and initially said "No". She went and got another representative who added another week, He also explained that he would take the total price down by $3400 if we sold those two weeks back to the resort for the year 2011 as well as "guaranteed" another $3400 every year if when they called us at the begginning of the year we would continue to sell those 2 weeks back to be able to bring in new guests to market to just like us. We repeatedly asked who would be calling us and they said them or someone in that department for "Grupo Mayan" and again mulitple times they stated "we will send you a check for the $3400" you just have to sell the weeks back to us, it's easy".I have to tell you this was a huge selling point and one of the main reasons we decided to purchase as it would help us be able to afford this a little better. 

On top of all of this they were going to give us 20 HSI weeks. We were told by Kristen that through HSI we would be getting travel for 50% the regular price, Sports tickets, concert tickets, airfare, and cruises for 50% off. She showed us a book with examples of this in it as well as explained she had recently booked a cruise for her grandmother and the price was 50% less then anywhere. Of course we had nothing at the time to compare pricing to, but realized once members of certain companies you do get significant price decreases. We inquired about the booking process as the booking process through our points system can be frustratting. She told us at this time that we call one person and they look up what is available, look at our weeks and determine what is best. We bought that day and two days later went back in as we decide we could not afford this. We spent another half day with Kristen and David. We dropped down to the MP, they increased us to 50 HSI weeks and once again Guaranteed us the $3400 back each year to resale to them our 2 weeks. 
We saw David a day later thinking we were missing one of our pages we were reassured that the one particular page we had was the contract page...This was not true!! We are certain we are missing a page showing our 2 weeks! 

Non of this is true!! We are very discouraged and upset for every having bought this program and have completely been lied to by this company.

When we went to check out, the woman was not going to give us our 10% off. My husband had to fight and threatened to not pay our bill just to get 10% off of some items. Tell them when they approach you on a presentation you want documentation of the discount!  This should have been our first clue! 

Now we are home and finding out MP does not ask every year to buy back and it's an outside company who we pay upfront and we will be lucky to sell let alone get our MF out of. HSI does not have 50% dicounts, they compare to Expedia.There is not one person to call who assists with everything there is one person to call for each company and HSI can not check into what you have with MP.  We aren't even sure of the value of our HSI weeks as we would have had the same with just the membership according to their staff. I am now in the process of seeing what we can do to get out of this as I do not want to be a part of something with a dishonest company.

Anyone looking to buy in please beware. Make sure you have all your documents, make sure you keep their scribble pages and make sure every bit you were told is written and signed for. Companies who take people's money knowing upfront they have been lying do not deserve anyone's business. I will make a point of telling everyone I know and anyone traveling to the MP to be sure not to attend a presentation that it's a scam and I have already. We have had mulitple people we know heading there and have already informed them not to go for it. If there is anyone out there that has some advice for us I would greatly appreciate it. We may not be able to help ourselves but I can help lots of others not sign up under lies. I know from the internet other people have had the same experience or similar and I am wanting to know what you did? Is there anyway to fight this?


----------



## Tropical lady

*some help.....*

To quickly resolve your issues, call Karen Rose (customer support rep) at 1-800-292-9446 or email her at www.grupomayanblog@grupovidanta.com.

Just trying to help out with some points.....
First, the card they gave you to take to the presentation has the discount and other amenities on it.  If you turned it in at that time it should have gone to checkout.
You had 5 days to rescind.  You did not mention that other than renegotiating a different contract.  Did they give you a hard time about rescinding?
The HSI weeks are the Breakaway weeks, not Burn or exchange weeks and they are restricted by each resort who offers this program.  They are not unlimited.
The front page of your contract has the specific info about what you bought...level, type. and number of units, time of year of use, maintenance fees.  Are you saying that you are missing the front page of your contract?  This info is also repeated at the top of your "new member verification statement". (where you had to initial statements)
The upfront "selling back" of weeks, for us, was just to get the cost down.  But ours never included a call each year, it was all on the front end for 5 years......we negotiated with member services ((the legal people who had you sign all the papers) to retain our weeks and not lose 2 of them for the first 5 years.
Before you communicate with Karen Rose, check your paperwork to see if the info I mentioned is there and you just did not know where to look.  Anyway, give her your issues and at least let her resolve them for you.
Don't contact your sales rep, get to member services, or Karen Rose.....they are not sales and do want you to get what you thought you bought.  If you have determined you cannot afford it, that is another issue.
Sales are known to be rough, but give them a chance to set things right before too much more time goes by.  Let us know how things work out.......


----------



## musictom

kingme said:


> We recenlty spent a week at the MP RM. W… and I am wanting to know what you did? Is there anyway to fight this?




Wow, the use of your Return/Enter key once in awhile would make a whole lot more people actually read this!

Gimme some paragraphs!!


----------



## Grupo Mayan

*Please let us help you!*

Dear “kingme”,

The comment you have posted in this site has been brought to our attention. As you can imagine, monitoring the internet is an impossible task for anyone, so we sometimes rely on the help of our committed clients to inform us about this type of remarks that were not sent to us through the proper channels provided in your paperwork and our websites. 

Even though this kind of observations are intended for future customers, we prefer to be hands on with the current clients that for some reason allege there was a failure on our part to clearly communicate the terms and conditions associated with the purchase of our products. We would like to be given the opportunity to investigate this further.

For that reason, please contact us at grupomayanblog@grupovidanta.com or call us at 1-800-292-9446. We are certain that once we have the information about your specific contract, we will be able to personalize our assistance.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely, 
Karen Rose
Customer Support Representative.


----------



## Tropical lady

*are you waiting?*

Kingme,
You apparantly have not bothered to contact Karen or member services.  I saw that you were on TUG on 4/10 so that you must have seen the info I gave you.  If you want timely resolution you might want to start communication since your post sounded urgent.


----------



## kingme

Tropical Lady,
Thank you very much for the information you provided me. Yes it is urgent but there are two of us involved here and my husband has been out of town. I apprciate the information and have every intention of contacting Karen. The reason for posting on the site was to get help and you did just that.
Thank you


----------



## Tropical lady

Thanks for responding. 
It is unfortunate that your purchase did not reflect what you thought you bought. Your post indicated that you enjoyed the resort.  Many of us who own do enjoy the resort/s, locations and amenities.  It is the sales process that can be a negative experience.
Best of luck with a resolution.  Let us know how it worked out for you.
Please feel free to PM me with any particular questions.


----------



## kingme

Thank you to the Mayan Staff for assisting us with our concerns. Our concerns have been addressed and at this point everything has been Satisfactorily resolved. Thank you also to Tropical Lady for gettting me in touch with Karen. They take your concerns seriously and try to work with you on resolution.
kingme


----------



## richontug

As a fairly new owner in Mayan Palace, I found this thread very interesting.
It is the first time I have seen a complaining user be completely satisfied with the eventual outcome.
Thank you TUG for providing this service.

Rich


----------



## Karen G

kingme said:


> Thank you to the Mayan Staff for assisting us with our concerns. Our concerns have been addressed and at this point everything has been Satisfactorily resolved. Thank you also to Tropical Lady for gettting me in touch with Karen. They take your concerns seriously and try to work with you on resolution.
> kingme


Could you please tell us exactly how their resolved your concerns?


----------



## mikenk

Karen G said:


> Could you please tell us exactly how their resolved your concerns?



Karen,

My guess is that will not be forthcoming - and for logical reasons.

As discussed in many threads, GM does not operate as other timeshares; each contract can be largely customized based on negotiations and timing. I doubt there is another contract in the GM system like mine; the same could be said for Pittle, Tropical Lady, Greg, Curt, Muranojo, Kingme, etc. It really doesn't do any of us any good to know the specifics of what others have as long as we are personally satisfied. I have no desire to know or share what I or others got; I either make others feel bad or I feel bad, and GM loses negotiating knowledge.

I am pleased that Karen, GM, and Kingme reached a good settlement. IMHO, that is all that matters.

Mike


----------



## Karen G

I am just curious as to how GM satisfies the complaints of people who obviously felt like they were being lied to and mislead. It is so common for people to come on TUG and post how they were hoodwinked into buying with promises of their weeks being rented for unrealistic amounts each year or getting too-good-to-be-true travel deals that never materialize. Most of the unhappy customers continue to report the same misrepresentations time after time.

What does GM do to appease them? Why don't they just stop the sales people from continuing to make the same misrepresentations?


----------



## Tropical lady

I agree 100% with Mikenk with all the points he made.
My assumption would be that when the OP comes back with a satisfied post, that the complaints initially mentioned have been corrected/made good or the contract was rescinded.  Is not that a logical conclusion?  
Whatever was negotiated to resolve the situation should be private.
We owners do hope and expect that as Karen Rose remains so active with these resolutions, that there is feedback about the various issues and trending to both upper management and the sales division. While it is disappointing to see complaints posted, I am happy that Grupo Vidanta, as a company, has taken the lead to publicly post contact information which offers a communication process in place.  This has created a simple and easy first step to resolution instead of having to struggle through a legal process which may or may not give good results.


----------



## pjrose

Tropical lady said:


> I agree 100% with Mikenk with all the points he made.
> My assumption would be that when the OP comes back with a satisfied post, that the complaints initially mentioned have been corrected/made good or the contract was rescinded.  Is not that a logical conclusion?
> Whatever was negotiated to resolve the situation should be private.
> We owners do hope and expect that as Karen Rose remains so active with these resolutions, that there is feedback about the various issues and trending to both upper management and the sales division. While it is disappointing to see complaints posted, I am happy that Grupo Vidanta, as a company, has taken the lead to publicly post contact information which offers a communication process in place.  This has created a simple and easy first step to resolution instead of having to struggle through a legal process which may or may not give good results.



I'm pretty sure that the solution includes "no more posts" for the original complainant.  However, just knowing "they refunded my money" or "they helped me negotiate a contract I liked better" wouldn't reflect badly on GM, it would be positive.


----------



## rpennisi

Karen G said:


> I am just curious as to how GM satisfies the complaints of people who obviously felt like they were being lied to and mislead. It is so common for people to come on TUG and post how they were hoodwinked into buying with promises of their weeks being rented for unrealistic amounts each year or getting too-good-to-be-true travel deals that never materialize. Most of the unhappy customers continue to report the same misrepresentations time after time.
> 
> What does GM do to appease them? Why don't they just stop the sales people from continuing to make the same misrepresentations?



I totally agree with Karen G.  I don'y buy the privacy explanation.  Those who get "satisfaction" are being bought out to keep quiet.  I believe the reason is that only a few get "satisfaction", while many never find this site or suffer in embarrassment and silence, thereby wins for Groupo Vidanta.  They are not going to change their tactics for newbie sales.  They have changed their sales tactics for current owners, because to get them to upgrade, they cannot get away with newbie sales tactics.
I don't even think Karen Rose is a real person, but a persona put out there for "doing the right thing by Grupo Vidanta.  We want to do things right and correct the missteps by salespersons".  Yeah right!!
"Karen Rose", what ever happened to the dangerous traffic situation that was being corrected between the GM and SG in NV?  How about an update.
Ron


----------



## Tropical lady

When you have positive outcomes to an issue, why the negativity and suspicions regarding the process?  Karen Rose is only a persona, Grupo Videnta only wants to do right and correct missteps....yeah right, sales is changed only for current owners. There must be an "in to information" that I do not have access to.
Now the pressure on Kingme to "tell all".  I'm happy for her and that is all that is needed.  Would I love to know all the little details?  Sure, but I value privacy above that.  Would I give you my details....don't think so.  Do I want to know yours......you betcha!


----------



## rpennisi

Tropical lady said:


> When you have positive outcomes to an issue, why the negativity and suspicions regarding the process?  Karen Rose is only a persona, Grupo Videnta only wants to do right and correct missteps....yeah right, sales is changed only for current owners. There must be an "in to information" that I do not have access to.
> Now the pressure on Kingme to "tell all".  I'm happy for her and that is all that is needed.  Would I love to know all the little details?  Sure, but I value privacy above that.  Would I give you my details....don't think so.  Do I want to know yours......you betcha!



I have been to Mayan newbie sales offers (didn't buy), and as Kingme and others have stated frequently here in complaint, not much has changed over the years.  For me, that's 2002 to the present.
I have recently (January of this year) been to a sales update offering (also didn't buy) as an owner, and it's a totally different pitch altogether.  I don't need an "in to information", because it's obvious to me as an owner and as a reader on this and other sites.  You don't need a weathervane to see which way the wind blows (with apologies to Bob Dylan).
Ron


----------



## curtbrown

All I can say is "Thank you" to "Karen Rose" (whether she's real or not).  I'm happy to see that she and Grupo Vidanta have taken a proactive approach to solving people's problems.  It's refreshing to see a change in the way they are handling customer complaint issues.  I don't believe for a minute that this is the only organization with sales issues, but they do seem to be the only ones with a Karen Rose who actively addresses the issues and resolves them.

As far as the other dissatisfied new owners who haven't found this site to get things straightened out - I don't buy that.  As Karen Rose said, even though they troll these forums, there are other, preferred options for these people to contact Grupo Vidanta to discuss their issues (by calling the 800 number, via email or even on their blog).  

While I can't agree with some of the sales tactics used by the non-salaried sales staff (both here and at other timeshare groups), some of the blame has to be shared by the new owners for not reading their contracts fully and not making sure everything they have been offered is written into it.   If, after reading it through completely after you've left the floor, you don't have everything in it you wanted, go back and get it changed.  If they won't do it, rescind.  

Curt


----------



## rpennisi

Curt,
Doesn't it bother you that they continue with the "we'll give you $3400 each year guaranteed" spiel, making it sound to newbies that this is a can't miss investment?
True, it's buyer beware, but I have seen (we go 5 weeks a year to mayans) so many newbies every year being misled, and to hear these people on carts and at the beach discussing their buys and promises made to them is to me, disheartening.
I love the product, hate the sales tactics.
Also, I don't agree that there are so many ways to contact and correct issues.  Being an owner for several years now, I am continually shocked by the lack of communication by Grupo Vidanta and the rapidity of unannounced changes that continue to make people ask, "Why don't they inform us as to what they are planning?"  
Ron


----------



## DeniseM

Plain and simple, "Karen Rose" is here to provide damage control for Grupo Mayan.  It's a carefully planned PR move - nothing more.  While that's a good thing for the handful of people who find her contact info. on TUG, what about the thousands of other Grupo Mayan victims?  

If Grupo Mayan truly cared about the ethics of their sales practices THEY WOULD CHANGE THEM.  Why don't they change them?  Because they are making tons of money by duping people with extremely high pressure, and blatantly dishonest, sales practices.

Patting Grupo Mayan on the back for putting a band aid on a gaping wound - that they inflicted, is disingenuous, at best.  YMMV


----------



## jlf58

Denise, I agree 

Grupo Mayan are crooks, flat out. They are basically Westgate on steriods. As Denise mentioned, making 1 out of 1000 clients happy on TUG doesn't change a thing. They figure if they rip off 1000 people and one complains on TUG, give them thier money back and the will look like a legit company. Selling hard is one thing, flat out lying to make a sale is another thing. BUYER BEWARE !! DO NOT take thier presentaion unless you are a seasoned TS person. Mexican law is pretty much a joke. Buy a US TS and you at least have a fighting chance. I am not hatin on the owners there, if you like it great but anyone who doesn't own there, stay away. Mexico is not the place for newbies to own a TS. 




DeniseM said:


> Plain and simple, "Karen Rose" is here to provide damage control for Grupo Mayan.  It's a carefully planned PR move - nothing more.  While that's a good thing for the handful of people who find her contact info. on TUG, what about the thousands of other Grupo Mayan victims?
> 
> If Grupo Mayan truly cared about the ethics of their sales practices THEY WOULD CHANGE THEM.  Why don't they change them?  Because they are making tons of money by duping people with extremely high pressure and blatantly dishonest sales practices.
> 
> Patting Grupo Mayan on the back for putting a band aid on a gaping wound - that they inflicted, is disingenuous, at best.  YMMV


----------



## pjrose

Fletch said:


> Denise, I agree
> 
> Grupo Mayan are crooks, flat out. They are basically Westgate on steriods. As Denise mentioned, making 1 out of 1000 clients happy on TUG doesn't change a thing. They figure if they rip off 1000 people and one complains on TUG, give them thier money back and the will look like a legit company. Selling hard is one thing, flat out lying to make a sale is another thing. BUYER BEWARE !! DO NOT take thier presentaion unless you are a seasoned TS person. Mexican law is pretty much a joke. *Buy a US TS and you at least have a fighting chance. I am not hatin on the owners there, if you like it great but anyone who doesn't own there, stay away. Mexico is not the place for newbies to own a TS.*



Of course the buyer must beware anywhere, must carefully review all the details, and buy resale when possible.  

However, NOT ALL Mexican timeshares do business like GM.  GM and groups that use high pressure and other tactics  give other resorts a bad name.


----------



## Tropical lady

*there's no pleasin' ya....*

I know that I asked Kingme to let us know ONLY if she was successful. Now I'm sorry I did!
Since Kingme posted her good resolution, it has stirred the pot about the existence of Karen Rose, questioned the intentions of Grupo Vidanta, and questioned why we don't get details. 
FYI, besides posting on TUG to give contact information, it is on the website for email and telephone....yes, an 800#.
I'll take the bandaid so that problems can be resolved without having to navigate the Mexican legal system.
By the way....no one posted that they were happy with Kingme's outcome and congratulated her for a good ending.


----------



## jlf58

I can't speak for EVERY Mexico TS company but I still will advise, mostly because of Mexican law, nobody buy a TS in Mexico from the developer. The possible exceptions being the Royals and any US TS company that happens to have a TS in Mexico so you are really dealing with US people. 

BTW, I love Cancun and own a resale in Cancun but paid less than $1,000.





pjrose said:


> Of course the buyer must beware anywhere, must carefully review all the details, and buy resale when possible.
> 
> However, NOT ALL Mexican timeshares do business like GM.  GM and groups that use high pressure and other tactics  give other resorts a bad name.


----------



## rpennisi

Tropical lady said:


> By the way....no one posted that they were happy with Kingme's outcome and congratulated her for a good ending.



Congratulations Kingme...you got yours, probably the last time you are to be heard from.  "Thanks" for helping others learn from your mistakes.


----------



## Karen G

Tropical lady said:


> no one posted that they were happy with Kingme's outcome


Since we don't know what the outcome really was, what are we to be happy about?  I'm glad she's satisfied with the outcome--other than that, it's still a mystery. Did they rescind the contract altogether? Did they refund her money? I'd be very happy about that outcome.


----------



## MuranoJo

What else does anyone need to know except Kingme's issues were satisfactorily resolved?  Refunding their money or letting them rescind the contract seem two obvious resolutions.  

What else can we imagine?  They upgraded them to a Grand Luxxe for free? They paid for a free ownership or 'membership' at one of the Royals or perhaps at one of the Pueblo Bonitos?

Sometimes I think we MX owners are our own 'worst enemies'.


----------



## mikenk

Once this thread went over to the "GM is the evil empire" mode, I tried to stay out but just can't - need to keep some perspective for random readers looking for information.

What is true is Grupo Mayan certainly does use a high pressure sales approach with a highly polished way of selling the age old TS stories, primarily "guaranteed rental income to pay for vacations" and these guarantees do not show up in the contract. They are also hugely efficient at getting people to listen.

This is also true. What is in the signed contract is honored, and specifics can be negotiated to customize the contract to your needs; they also frequently offer cool things like Senior discounts, no MF unless you use; etc. The contracts people are easy and fair to work with. The resorts are extremely well managed with continuous renovation. I have never had any issue with resolving contractual or any other issues.

To many on TUG, the first truism trumps all. For me and other owners, the second one trumps all. Having a contract customized to what I want and with no long term debt obligation works for many of us over the typical TS contract.

I also agree that people who are not willing or capable of reading / understanding the contract that they are about to sign have no business attending any timeshare presentation, especially the GM ones. However, people that know what they want, know what they can afford, and really know the TS game, might be surprised at the possibilities.

Regarding the resolution of the OP problems, I assume the member services folks added contract wording to make the contract acceptable - simple as that. The details are unimportant. Realistically, this is what should have happened and could have happened the day after signing the contract.

Mike


----------



## jlf58

Mike

I agree with 90% of your post. The bottom line is Grupo Mayan and MANY mexico timeshares lie lie lie( yes, much more than US companies) AND more importantly, when people try and back out as per mexican law, they fight that also. I don't care who you are, if you don't mind a good game of russian roulette, give a mexico tieshare presentation a shot !! 
For the record, I have attended a few presentations in Mexico and also do this for a living. Mexico sales people are NOT in the same league as US ts salesman as far as flat out being able to sell. 




mikenk said:


> Once this thread went over to the "GM is the evil empire" mode, I tried to stay out but just can't - need to keep some perspective for random readers looking for information.
> 
> What is true is Grupo Mayan certainly does use a high pressure sales approach with a highly polished way of selling the age old TS stories, primarily "guaranteed rental income to pay for vacations" and these guarantees do not show up in the contract. They are also hugely efficient at getting people to listen.
> 
> This is also true. What is in the signed contract is honored, and specifics can be negotiated to customize the contract to your needs; they also frequently offer cool things like Senior discounts, no MF unless you use; etc. The contracts people are easy and fair to work with. The resorts are extremely well managed with continuous renovation. I have never had any issue with resolving contractual or any other issues.
> 
> To many on TUG, the first truism trumps all. For me and other owners, the second one trumps all. Having a contract customized to what I want and with no long term debt obligation works for many of us over the typical TS contract.
> 
> I also agree that people who are not willing or capable of reading / understanding the contract that they are about to sign have no business attending any timeshare presentation, especially the GM ones. However, people that know what they want, know what they can afford, and really know the TS game, might be surprised at the possibilities.
> 
> Regarding the resolution of the OP problems, I assume the member services folks added contract wording to make the contract acceptable - simple as that. The details are unimportant. Realistically, this is what should have happened and could have happened the day after signing the contract.
> 
> Mike


----------



## mikenk

Fletch said:


> Mike
> 
> I agree with 90% of your post. The bottom line is Grupo Mayan and MANY mexico timeshares lie lie lie( yes, much more than US companies) AND more importantly, when people try and back out as per mexican law, they fight that also. I don't care who you are, if you don't mind a good game of russian roulette, give a mexico tieshare presentation a shot !!
> For the record, I have attended a few presentations in Mexico and also do this for a living. Mexico sales people are NOT in the same league as US ts salesman as far as flat out being able to sell.



Actually. in my experience, I have seen exactly the same lies in American timeshares.

While I can't speak for other Mexican companies, I have rescinded my contract with GM as per Mexican law and the GM contract, and had absolutely no push back as to my right to do so. What Member Services did do is negotiate to sweeten the pot for me not to leave; I have no problem with that process and I was absolutely in control of the negotiations for 5 days. My resulting contract works for us, it has been honored to the letter, and I have no doubt it will continue to be honored.

Mike


----------



## jlf58

lets just say you are the exception, not the rule  




mikenk said:


> Actually. in my experience, I have seen exactly the same lies in American timeshares.
> 
> While I can't speak for other Mexican companies, I have rescinded my contract with GM as per Mexican law and the GM contract, and had absolutely no push back as to my right to do so. What Member Services did do is negotiate to sweeten the pot for me not to leave; I have no problem with that process and I was absolutely in control of the negotiations for 5 days. My resulting contract works for us, it has been honored to the letter, and I have no doubt it will continue to be honored.
> 
> Mike


----------



## mikenk

Fletch said:


> lets just say you are the exception, not the rule



Interesting statement; actually, I doubt if I am an exception regarding the GM system; I can't speak to other Mexican timeshares as to whether the contract is totally honored.

I think at the GM, you can generally count on these things although I am sure there are exceptions.

1: You will encounter a high pressure sales process if you choose to attend the presentation. The sales people will entice you with things that will not make it into the contract. Shame on them for doing so; shame on you for letting it stand.

2: You can also easily choose to not take the presentation and you will not be bothered.

3: If you are an owner, you can count on the contract being fairly administered as written and signed. This includes the ability to rescind within five days. It is immaterial whether you like what you signed or not as per item 1.

4: The resort facilities will be well maintained, with a great friendly staff, and with all the amenities for a great vacation if you so choose.

These are my experiences and observations, I am curious whether these are out of line with what others' have experienced at GM resorts. How about other Mexican resorts? it has been implied that the Mexican laws allow contracts to be abused. Is that really widespread in Mexico?

Mike


----------



## jlf58

Thats not actually what I said. I said they lie and MANY items are not in the contract and backing out is usually a hassle. The funny thing is lots of theses Mexico TS's are very nice, its the sales staff the kills the reputation. 



mikenk said:


> it has been implied that the Mexican laws allow contracts to be abused. Is that really widespread in Mexico?
> 
> Mike


----------



## mikenk

Fletch said:


> Thats not actually what I said. I said they lie and MANY items are not in the contract and backing out is usually a hassle. The funny thing is lots of theses Mexico TS's are very nice, its the sales staff the kills the reputation.



Agreed on that post; I was really referring to your earlier posts on the thread (and other people on other threads) that Mexican laws are a joke in this regard and Mexican TS should be avoided. Regardless whether that is true in general, my experience with GM contracts is they are every bit as binding in practice as have been contracts in the U.S. What you sign up for is what you got - no more, no less.

Mike


----------



## curtbrown

This is a long one so bear with me.  




rpennisi said:


> Curt,
> Doesn't it bother you that they continue with the "we'll give you $3400 each year guaranteed" spiel, making it sound to newbies that this is a can't miss investment?
> 
> Also, I don't agree that there are so many ways to contact and correct issues. Being an owner for several years now, I am continually shocked by the lack of communication by Grupo Vidanta and the rapidity of unannounced changes that continue to make people ask, "Why don't they inform us as to what they are planning?"
> 
> Ron



If that $3,400 clause actually ends up in the contract that the customer signs, great...!!!  That would be a wonderful benefit.  My point  was that people sign their contracts without looking to see if those sorts of things are actually in there.  If it isn't, make sure they put it in before you sign it.  If it's in the contract, they'll honor it.

I've been to *MANY* TS sales presentations in Mexico and throughout mainland USA & Hawaii, and the low-pressure informative approach to sales is the exception and not the rule.  I would have to say that at least 90% of them have very little chance of selling me anything with a high pressure approach.  But maybe that's just me.  Hopefully GM (and all of the others) are listening.

Grupo Vidanta / Grupo Mayan seems to have a two-tiered sales approach.  It's been my experience that prospective 1st time customers do seem to get the higher pressure approach in many cases (although they also seem to get better incentives to attend) while the current owners in for an "Owner Update" seem to get a more informed salaried salesperson.  Because that salesperson is salaried, they are not as desperate to make the sale.  Also, because many of the current owners are much better informed than the general public, the presentations are generally presented in a logical manner to point out the benefits of upgrading.  Two completely different experiences.

As far as not being able to contact GM with problems, I know of at least three ways to contact them.  You can call the Customer Service phone number (1-800-292-9446), email them (grupomayanblog@grupovidanta.com) or log into their forum (http://www.grupo-mayan-forums.com/).  You don't need to be a TUG member to learn how to do it.

If more people used those methods first, AND THEN came on here and posted their complaints if they felt things still weren't handled to their satisfaction, I don't think we would see nearly as many complaints posted here.  I mean if you have a problem with your new car, but refuse to contact the dealership to get it fixed because you don't like the salesman, is it the car manufacturer's fault?  People need to give them a chance to make things right.  

In any case, it has to be a case of "Buyer Beware"

As far as changes being made to the resorts without letting us know their plans.  If you've been to the Nuevo Vallarta resorts lately, you know that there is A LOT of construction going on there (as well as at most of their other resorts).  As with any major construction project that spans several year, changes happen.  In the case of GM in NV, they have always talked about the major changes that are going on there.  As Grand Luxxe sales took off, they changed the plans to include more GL buildings.  Conversely, when Bliss was not a popular seller, they scaled that product back and discontinued selling it.  Those are business decisions and those sorts of changes will happen in the business world.  As an owner, I don't think they have any requirement to run them by me, or really even keep me informed as they occur.  So far I think the resorts are much better and offer a better experience for the owner/guest than was the case 8-10 years ago.  I have no complaint there.  If I'm really concerned what their current concrete plans are, I go to an update.  I've recently found that unless future plans are a sure thing, you won't get a salesperson to commit one way or the other on what is coming next.
__________________________

From Mike -
Interesting statement; actually, I doubt if I am an exception regarding the GM system; I can't speak to other Mexican timeshares as to whether the contract is totally honored.

I think at the GM, you can generally count on these things although I am sure there are exceptions.

1: You will encounter a high pressure sales process if you choose to attend the presentation. The sales people will entice you with things that will not make it into the contract. Shame on them for doing so; shame on you for letting it stand.

2: You can also easily choose to not take the presentation and you will not be bothered.

3: If you are an owner, you can count on the contract being fairly administered as written and signed. This includes the ability to rescind within five days. It is immaterial whether you like what you signed or not as per item 1.

4: The resort facilities will be well maintained, with a great friendly staff, and with all the amenities for a great vacation if you so choose.

These are my experiences and observations, I am curious whether these are out of line with what others' have experienced at GM resorts. How about other Mexican resorts? it has been implied that the Mexican laws allow contracts to be abused. Is that really widespread in Mexico?

Mike

Mike, these are my exact experiences with Mayan.  I don't think you are the exception.


----------



## rpennisi

Just got back from NV. The top portion of Mayan Palace and the one round end of the building being taken down. Pool and Restaurant to be added to the roof top on the 3rd floor. In fact the Mayan Palace building is closed now until October 8th for the renovations. They will also be renovating some of the Brio Spa area in that building.

Kurt,
The above is a paste from a TripAdvisor post that ironically had a salutation to you.  I don't know if you saw it yet?  But this is what I mean by changes upon changes with no information forthcoming to owners.  You are now GL, but myself and friends are still Mayan Palace.  Grupo Vidanta throws down the red and yellow MP buildings, but at least they built extensions onto the last Mayan Palace building.  But wait, *even before opening the rounded extensions, they are dismantling one end and removing some of the last existing Mayan Palace building!* Way to cover your existing contracts GM!
Last year, I was able to make reservations for January 2011, but my friends couldn't get in, even though they tried the first hour that the reservations could be made.  The company is not showing loyalty to existing owners, pure and simple.
Ron


----------



## rpennisi

curtbrown said:


> Grupo Vidanta / Grupo Mayan seems to have a two-tiered sales approach.  It's been my experience that prospective 1st time customers do seem to get the higher pressure approach in many cases (although they also seem to get better incentives to attend) while the current owners in for an "Owner Update" seem to get a more informed salaried salesperson.  Because that salesperson is salaried, they are not as desperate to make the sale.  Also, because many of the current owners are much better informed than the general public, the presentations are generally presented in a logical manner to point out the benefits of upgrading.  Two completely different experiences.



This, I agree with 100%

What I find ironic, or maybe not, is that of all the Mayan owners who post here, the ones that support Grupo Vidanta's moves wholeheartedly are those who have upgraded to Grand Bliss and Grand Luxxe.  I don't know what the future will bring, but if and when Grupo Vidanta decides to further upgrade their offerings at the expense of GL and GB owners like they have with Mayan Palace and Sea Garden owners, the howling will be fierce.  In this statement, I am not including those who oppose the company for other reasons as have been stated, I think, quite eloquently.
Ron


----------



## curtbrown

Yes, I saw that post on TA and it did surprise me.  I didn't think they would tear down something that was just built.  But like I said earlier, those are business decisions that have been made and only time will tell as to what the final product at NV will be.  

As far as the closing of the MP until October, this will be the 2nd year in a row that they've closed it (along with the PV Mayan Palace) during the low season.  Like last year, I believe they are upgrading all of the pre-booked MP guests into the GM level where they will have full use of the GM pool and grounds.  I don't see that as a downside.

Also, I personally don't think the Mayan Palace brand is going away any time soon.  Aren't they building a brand new Mayan Palace Tower right now in Acapulco?  And didn't they recently open the Mayan Palace Regency down there with a brand new pool facility?  

Also consider that many of the former MP owners have moved to GM, GB, and even GL levels, and since they are no longer selling any new MP contracts, the availability should still be there for you.  I mean there are MP resorts in Puerto Penasco, Mazatlan, Nuevo Vallarta, Puerto Vallarta and in Riviera Maya.  

How many Grand Bliss resorts are there?  Only the one that's in NV.

Grand Luxxe?  Currently only two in NV and and two (small) 3-story buildings in RM.  That's not much inventory for the number of GL contract sales they've made.  Is it any wonder they're putting a lot of their effort into the GL construction?  Especially since those sales are what is financing most of the new construction that's going on...

I don't have a current breakdown on the total inventory that is available, but I would suspect that there is a very large number of both MP and GM units available (I'm not sure which one would have more available units - it's probably pretty close), followed distantly by Grand Luxxe and then Grand Bliss.

The biggest problem in Nuevo was the initial layout of the property itself.  While it's a large property, they had limited ocean frontage, most of which was in front of the Mayan Palace.  Once they decided to start the Grand Bliss and the Grand Luxxe brands, they had to "rearrange" the buildings so the more expensive properties had their share of the views as well.  That was a hard thing to do with the MP buildings located where they were.  I think it was strictly a logistics issue (although an expensive one).  How do you sell an upscale property for what they are asking if the new units look out on another building and not the ocean or golf course?  

Since most of the owners of each level are typically in this for the long haul, I think I'll wait and see how things progress over the next 5-6 years.  While plans do change during the course of construction, the overall outlook for the future construction is great - not only in the existing locations in Puerto Penasco, Acapulco and in Nuevo Vallarta where there is current construction, but also at the proposed golf resorts in Los Cabos East Cape and in the new acreage across the Ameca River south of the existing NV resort where the new Greg Norman golf course will be built.  I haven't even mentioned the rumored new location in the Dominican Republic.

I own other timeshares besides the Grupo Mayan properties, and while they are Gold Crown level resorts as well, NONE of them offer me the same quality experience or the amenities I get at the Mayan.  I don't think there are many resorts out there that will compare once all is said and done.

Just my $0.02...

Curt


----------



## KarenLK

"Karen Rose" may be someone like "Madge", I believe her name was, who would respond to RCI issues, I believe. 

I own at the Royals, Villa del Mar, and Sheraton Buganvilias. 

Villa Group has some of the most "snakey" salesmen, and I and a friend have rescinded twice after careful reading of the contracts. I went to an update at Mayan in Nuevo with a friend and a friend - the product is great, but the sales group is really filled with a lot of lies, same as Villa Group sales. 

On the other hand, I have been dealing with the Royals since 1985 and have never been told a blatant lie. My much more limited experience with Sheraton Buganvilias seems very straightforward as well.


----------



## curtbrown

KarenLK said:


> "Karen Rose" may be someone like "Madge", I believe her name was, who would respond to RCI issues, I believe.



I thought it was Madge who soaked your fingers in Palmolive...  :rofl: :rofl: 


Curt


----------



## rpennisi

curtbrown said:


> I thought it was Madge who soaked your fingers in Palmolive...  :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> 
> Curt



The odds are Palmolive Madge and Mayan Karen Rose are both pseudonyms
Ron


----------



## mikenk

rpennisi said:


> The odds are Palmolive Madge and Mayan Karen Rose are both pseudonyms
> Ron



Don't know about Madge.

I think Karen Rose is likely a pseudonym for someone (maybe a group) in Members Services that are chartered to monitor and resolve PR issues. I actually talked to her regarding some concerns I had expressed - good discussion.

Mike


----------



## mikenk

rpennisi said:


> This, I agree with 100%
> 
> What I find ironic, or maybe not, is that of all the Mayan owners who post here, the ones that support Grupo Vidanta's moves wholeheartedly are those who have upgraded to Grand Bliss and Grand Luxxe.  I don't know what the future will bring, but if and when Grupo Vidanta decides to further upgrade their offerings at the expense of GL and GB owners like they have with Mayan Palace and Sea Garden owners, the howling will be fierce.  In this statement, I am not including those who oppose the company for other reasons as have been stated, I think, quite eloquently.
> Ron



Ron,
I agree with your concern; I do believe that GM is planning on phasing out Sea Garden and MP balancing attrition with inventory. It would appear that NV would be the first for phase out due to space constraints - Acapulco and RM seem to be still going strong with MP. My guess is that MP folks will be made some nice deals to upgrade to the Grand mayan. 

While I am very satisfied with my contract, my largest concern is inventory availability in the long haul. The GM system is more of a hotel resort from a business perspective; their goal (which makes sense) is to keep the resort units occupied through members, exchanges, and direct rentals. This creates a real balancing act to keep all satisfied. So far, we have not had a real problem - knock on wood -  but it is a lingering concern.

Mike


----------



## pittle

mikenk said:


> Don't know about Madge.
> 
> I think Karen Rose is likely a pseudonym for someone (maybe a group) in Members Services that are chartered to monitor and resolve PR issues. I actually talked to her regarding some concerns I had expressed - good discussion.
> 
> Mike



There used to be a person known as Madge who answered RCI questions.  She was very helpful.  Several years ago, either she retired or RCI decided that Madge did not have time to be a TUG resource.


----------



## MuranoJo

mikenk said:


> Ron,
> My guess is that MP folks will be made some nice deals to upgrade to the Grand mayan.



I'd be glad to hear them.  Since you deal mostly with the Owners' Sevices (I believe) vs. the Sales team, do you know if they'd be willing to discuss options over the phone?  

I'm reluctant to give up my weeks because they include the big holidays, and I have yet to find someone in the 'upper levels' who will tell me if they have the same holiday weeks available in upgrades. I've not heard of it.


----------



## mikenk

muranojo said:


> I'd be glad to hear them.  Since you deal mostly with the Owners' Sevices (I believe) vs. the Sales team, do you know if they'd be willing to discuss options over the phone?
> 
> I'm reluctant to give up my weeks because they include the big holidays, and I have yet to find someone in the 'upper levels' who will tell me if they have the same holiday weeks available in upgrades. I've not heard of it.



Not sure unless you already have an ongoing contact within Member Services. I had a lot of contract issues early on so was able to develop that.

In my upgrade discussions, I always insisted that I not lose anything I had before which usually worked.

 I will pm you later.

Mike


----------



## sally13

*pointing the finger on sales practice...*

I am just ILL...over and over I see those who believe they have been SNOOKERED...

when in fact...it is ones OWN shortcomings that they are really upset with...

Look...when buying ANYTHING with a CONTRACT it is up to the buyer to KNOW what they are getting into with their signature...

The used car sales person will SELL exactly like a Mayan sales person..will they not???

and ALL timeshare can be compared to a USED car ...can they not??

get off it Mayan bashers...facts speak for themselves..[name calling deleted]

Karen Rose is doing more then most other timeshares would do and the Mayan Palace should be congratulated for being proactive....

damage control???for what??

grupo vindante is a BUSINESS...and a very well run one at that...as far as someone feeling that they have been lied to...perhaps when one buys something with a CONTRACT,they will actually READ what they are buying

I have no pity for someone who blames others for their own foolishness...


----------



## Tropical lady

*whole hearted support???*

I think that most of the posters here who are positive about Grupo Vidanta are so for specific reasons, not wholeheartedly as you put it, which implies to me, that no matter what Grupo Vidanta does it is ok.  I support them in putting forth a proactive communication process which should assist the majority of those with after sales issues.  What is so important about the name used other than to make negative comments?  I support the many benefits that come with the various levels purchased.  I am more than satisfied with the resorts, in general, the maintenance, the amenities.
As far as the "fence", since I have not seen it yet (will be there in Nov-Dec), I will experience the situation at that time.  We did enjoy the walks to Sea Garden and Marina area and reading about the wall installed just after we left Dec '10, it "sounds" disappointing.  However others have posted here and other places that it is not that much of a problem.  Will see for myself.
An appropriate concern is the availability for reservations when exchangers and renters are added to the mix.  And, yes, if there continues to be a problem in the future, then that needs to be addressed.
Carte blanche, whoehearted support..... I don't read that for most owners who post here.


----------



## curtbrown

Tropical lady said:


> I think that most of the posters here who are positive about Grupo Vidanta are so for specific reasons, not wholeheartedly as you put it, which implies to me, that no matter what Grupo Vidanta does it is ok.  I support them in putting forth a proactive communication process which should assist the majority of those with after sales issues.  What is so important about the name used other than to make negative comments?  I support the many benefits that come with the various levels purchased.  I am more than satisfied with the resorts, in general, the maintenance, the amenities.
> 
> Carte blanche, whoehearted support..... I don't read that for most owners who post here.



I agree with Tropical Lady.  I'm not wholeheartedly in support of GM.  And I do understand why everyone is upset with the sales tactics that are sometimes used at the initial sales meeting with prospective buyers (we went through that years ago when we first bought - not fun).  But they do offer a good product and so far we are very happy with our purchases / upgrades over the years.  

Like Mike, we have always insisted that all of our "extras" went into the new contract and so far we don't have a complaint.  A couple of years ago, after getting back to the room and re-reading it, we did notice that so something was omitted from the contract.  We made a quick call back down to customer service and walked down the following morning to sign and pick up the corrected version.  Our salesman came over when he heard we were on the sales floor and apologized for the oversight.  No problems whatever.

I'm sure not everyone's experience has been as positive as ours and I completely understand their concerns. My only issue is that they really need to be proactive to try to resolve the issues immediately if they get back to their room and re-read their contract.  Call them right away and give them a chance to fix it.  If they can't (or won't) - rescind immediately.

I find it hard to sympathize with someone who discovers months later that their contract is missing something or that they aren't getting what they thought they were supposed to get, and then come on this forum to bash GM without going through the proper channels first.  But maybe it's just me...

Curt


----------



## pjrose

sally13 said:


> I am just ILL...over and over I see those who believe they have been SNOOKERED...
> 
> when in fact...it is ones OWN shortcomings that they are really upset with...
> 
> Look...when buying ANYTHING with a CONTRACT it is up to the buyer to KNOW what they are getting into with their signature...
> 
> The used car sales person will SELL exactly like a Mayan sales person..will they not???
> 
> and ALL timeshare can be compared to a USED car ...can they not??
> 
> get off it Mayan bashers...facts speak for themselves..[name calling deleted]
> 
> Karen Rose is doing more then most other timeshares would do and the Mayan Palace should be congratulated for being proactive....
> 
> damage control???for what??
> 
> grupo vindante is a BUSINESS...and a very well run one at that...as far as someone feeling that they have been lied to...perhaps when one buys something with a CONTRACT,they will actually READ what they are buying
> 
> I have no pity for someone who blames others for their own foolishness...



Yes, we keep seeing posts from those who feel they've been snookered, and yes it is absolutely their responsibility to read the contract.

The question is WHY Grupo Mayan contracts sometimes (often?) do not match the verbal promises?  From everything I hear their resorts are very nice, so why do the salespeople promise things that aren't put in the contracts?  Why do they need to use the high pressure?  Yes it is a business, but is it well run if the salespeople promise things that aren't in the contracts?   And are they really proactive?  Karen Rose reacts to customer complaints - proactive would mean that they take steps to prevent those complaints in the first place, (perhaps by not promising things that aren't in writing?).   And why do you say "damage control???for what??"?  Obviously they need damage control because of the unhappy people.  

Again, YES they should read the contract - but ALSO, there shouldn't be any discrepancy between the contract and the promises!  If the resorts are so nice, then they should practically sell themselves without a need for pressure or false promises!


----------



## aliikai2

*The problem with retail Timeshare Sales*

that creates a lot of the animosity is that the value isn't really there to begin with,

Like a car, once the 5 day period ends and the buyers get back from vacation, they experience Buyers Remorse , and when they do their due diligence ( after the fact) they found that they paid 
way more than a resale unit. 

This was seen a lot when the MP units were the top of the group and only had 1 annual fee to transfer and they kept all the original owners perks.
With the Grand Mayan, the resales dropped off with the changes in the transfer procedures , with the GL or GB, it almost eliminated the resale market.

The other factor is what I call the Lemming Factor, they find lots of unhappy people so they must also be unhappy.

Do timeshare people lie, of course they do, at Disney, Marriott, Westin, Hyatt, etc.

Do the GM sales people lie more, I haven't seen that, they do have a gauntlet sales process, that wrings every possible sale out of tours. They have perfected the _wear you down_
until you give up approach.
Is it right or fair? Is accepting $400 to tour a resort right or fair??

Those decisions need to be made by each of us, I have always figured that if you want to pay me to listen, I will, I don't buy retail often, but I will sure listen. 


jmho,

Greg



pjrose said:


> Yes, we keep seeing posts from those who feel they've been snookered, and yes it is absolutely their responsibility to read the contract.
> 
> The question is WHY Grupo Mayan contracts sometimes (often?) do not match the verbal promises?  From everything I hear their resorts are very nice, so why do the salespeople promise things that aren't put in the contracts?  Why do they need to use the high pressure?  Yes it is a business, but is it well run if the salespeople promise things that aren't in the contracts?   And are they really proactive?  Karen Rose reacts to customer complaints - proactive would mean that they take steps to prevent those complaints in the first place, (perhaps by not promising things that aren't in writing?).   And why do you say "damage control???for what??"?  Obviously they need damage control because of the unhappy people.
> 
> Again, YES they should read the contract - but ALSO, there shouldn't be any discrepancy between the contract and the promises!  If the resorts are so nice, then they should practically sell themselves without a need for pressure or false promises!


----------



## Karen G

aliikai2 said:


> Do timeshare people lie, of course they do, at Disney, Marriott, Westin, Hyatt, etc. . . .
> 
> Is it right or fair?


I would say NO, it isn't right or fair to lie when trying to sell something or conduct a business. And just because some other timeshare company lies, doesn't excuse any of the others from lying. It's wrong no matter who is doing it.




aliikair2 said:


> Is accepting $400 to tour a resort right or fair??


 Obviously the sales force thinks it's right and fair because it is THEIR business plan to offer large amounts of cash to get their prospects to a presentation.  Criticizing someone for accepting this cash and getting suckered into a sale based on lies and misrepresentations doesn't seem right or fair. 

As others have pointed out, GM should clean up their act and be sure that the promises made by the salespeople are actually what is contained in the contract. Then they wouldn't need all the damage control afterward.


----------



## mikenk

Sometimes from the posts on this forum. it seems that people here seem to think that the timeshare sales industry is pure as the driven snow - except of course for the GM system. 

Also, it seems that people here don't acknowledge that the sales process in every industry is buyer beware and due diligence. People selling stuff lie routinely, don't disclose things that they should, and exaggerate the worth. Even worse, they often don't honor the deal they make. Doesn't make it right, but it is what it is.

As Greg said, GM is very effective at getting people to listen, displaying the product, and selling the units. I have no problem with that. People that take the time to read the contract can get things fixed or rescinded - no problem. The contract that people sign is honored to the letter over the life of the contract.

 I will bet that almost 100% of all retail TS contracts sold anywhere involved misrepresentations - lies if you prefer. Actually, I bet most resales involve misrepresentations of the truth on the part of one party of the other. In reality, I believe that many (not all) GM contracts are the only developer sold TS products anywhere that actually has real ROI value. 

Mike


----------



## aliikai2

Karen G said:


> I would say NO, it isn't right or fair to lie when trying to sell something or conduct a business. And just because some other timeshare company lies, doesn't excuse any of the others from lying. It's wrong no matter who is doing it.


Ok we agree on this point, but placing all the blame on the Grupo Mayan also isn't fair. The PB resorts are just as bad in my experience.


> Obviously the sales force thinks it's right and fair because it is THEIR business plan to offer large amounts of cash to get their prospects to a presentation.  Criticizing someone for accepting this cash and getting suckered into a sale based on lies and misrepresentations doesn't seem right or fair.


I don't see where I criticized anyone for anything, but as long as you mentioned it, if you take their money you can expect them to do the best job they know how to do to sell you. Mis-truths  or misrepresentations are common in all direct fast paced sales, timeshares to hottubs, warehouse clubs, etc. Here again, if you did due diligence in advance you would never buy any of these fast paced, once and only today sold items.


> As others have pointed out, GM should clean up their act and be sure that the promises made by the salespeople are actually what is contained in the contract. Then they wouldn't need all the damage control afterward.


There have been lots of posters that don't have a dog in this fight espousing their opinions that the Evil GM needs to fix this..... The facts are they are a successful sales organization moving millions of $$ worth of product. They are bound to have some unhappy people simply based upon the shear volume of transactions. 
As adults we make our choices, we then can stand behind them, or we can blame somebody else. 
I prefer to stand behind mine, if I made a mistake, I get to pay for it. Was I misled? Maybe, maybe not, but nobody held a gun or a knife to my head or forced me to sign the contract.

fwiw,

Greg


----------



## pittle

As usual, I agree with Mike, Greg, Tropical Lady, Curt, Muranojo, and Sally.  Yes, we all own various levels of Grupo Mayan properties and feel that it is necessary to defend them since two of our Moderators seem to think that Grupo Mayan is the Big Bad Wolf of Timeshares (I _really_ hate to say that, but it seems to be the case lately gals).  

BUT, the bottom line is just what Curt said…………………….“I'm sure not everyone's experience has been as positive as ours and I completely understand their concerns. My only issue is that they really need to be proactive to try to resolve the issues immediately if they get back to their room and re-read their contract. Call them right away and give them a chance to fix it. If they can't (or won't) - rescind immediately.

I find it hard to sympathize with someone who discovers months later that their contract is missing something or that they aren't getting what they thought they were supposed to get, and then come on this forum to bash GM without going through the proper channels first. But maybe it's just me...”

*No – it is NOT just Curt! * This seems to be the opinion of the majority of the Grupo Mayan Owners at all levels.  *The resorts are totally awesome, but the sales force is not!*

We personally own a total of 15 timeshare weeks as of today (we bought a PBEB unit on eBay yesterday) and the *6* Grupo Mayan resorts are the ones that *we CHOOSE *to take our family to because of the awesome service and amenities that we know we will receive.  We always know that they will be blown away and welcome another invitation to join us on another vacation!!!

There is a *HUGE* difference in the Sales/Tour experience and the actual guest experience.  Unless you actually want to spend a bunch of money – pass on the presentation.  Just choose to exchange into the Grupo Mayan Resorts and enjoy the experience.  Then, if you want to “own” part of this – watch eBay.  There is a 2-bedroom Grand Mayan out there right now for $6,900 and that is the total cost – the owner of this contract is paying the transfer fees.


----------



## pjrose

We have been subjected to high pressure and lied to at a long out-of-business resort in Cancun, and an older resort in Williamsburg.  

Neither was true at Marriott presentations, a Westin presentation, and Royals presentations.

So do all TS salespeople lie?  No.  

Do they need to?  Maybe if they're selling a poor resort, but I can't imagine why those selling a resort that everyone seems to agree is very nice have to lie.


----------



## rpennisi

pittle said:


> ...
> *No – it is NOT just Curt! * This seems to be the opinion of the majority of the Grupo Mayan Owners at all levels.  *The resorts are totally awesome, but the sales force is not!*...
> 
> There is a *HUGE* difference in the Sales/Tour experience and the actual guest experience.



Amen to that Phyllis, that is the whole problem in a nutshell.
As far as presentations go, the GM ones I have gone to (with the exception of the owner's "update" of last January) are the longest and toughest I have ever experienced in the US or Mexico.
Ron


----------



## Karen G

pittle said:


> As usual, I agree with Mike, Greg, Tropical Lady, Curt, Muranojo, and Sally.  Yes, we all own various levels of Grupo Mayan properties and feel that it is necessary to defend them since two of our Moderators seem to think that Grupo Mayan is the Big Bad Wolf of Timeshares (I _really_ hate to say that, but it seems to be the case lately gals).


Well, if I am one of the Moderators you are referring to, I do have a negative opinion of the sales tactics used by GM based on all the experiences people have shared over the last few years.  I really don't see how you can defend those sales practices.

I have no quarrel with the quality of the resorts themselves. Everyone seems to be highly pleased with the resorts and they sound wonderful.

That is why I still don't understand why there is such a disconnect between the operation of the resorts and the high pressure sales tactics. Such great resorts should sell themselves.  People should be able to recognize the benefits of the properties and the amenities on face value without having to resort to the shenanigans the salesmen use to make a sale.


----------



## MuranoJo

pittle said:


> As usual, I agree with Mike, Greg, Tropical Lady, Curt, Muranojo, and Sally.  Yes, we all own various levels of Grupo Mayan properties and feel that it is necessary to defend them since two of our Moderators seem to think that Grupo Mayan is the Big Bad Wolf of Timeshares (I _really_ hate to say that, but it seems to be the case lately gals).
> 
> BUT, the bottom line is just what Curt said…………………….“I'm sure not everyone's experience has been as positive as ours and I completely understand their concerns. My only issue is that they really need to be proactive to try to resolve the issues immediately if they get back to their room and re-read their contract. Call them right away and give them a chance to fix it. If they can't (or won't) - rescind immediately.
> 
> I find it hard to sympathize with someone who discovers months later that their contract is missing something or that they aren't getting what they thought they were supposed to get, and then come on this forum to bash GM without going through the proper channels first. But maybe it's just me...”
> 
> *No – it is NOT just Curt! * This seems to be the opinion of the majority of the Grupo Mayan Owners at all levels.  *The resorts are totally awesome, but the sales force is not!*
> 
> We personally own a total of 15 timeshare weeks as of today (we bought a PBEB unit on eBay yesterday) and the *6* Grupo Mayan resorts are the ones that *we CHOOSE *to take our family to because of the awesome service and amenities that we know we will receive.  We always know that they will be blown away and welcome another invitation to join us on another vacation!!!
> 
> There is a *HUGE* difference in the Sales/Tour experience and the actual guest experience.  Unless you actually want to spend a bunch of money – pass on the presentation.  Just choose to exchange into the Grupo Mayan Resorts and enjoy the experience.  Then, if you want to “own” part of this – watch eBay.  There is a 2-bedroom Grand Mayan out there right now for $6,900 and that is the total cost – the owner of this contract is paying the transfer fees.



Agree 100% with Phyllis.   
In fact, I have noted for some time that some of the more vocal posters in these Grupo threads have been TUGgers who are also fellow MX owners--who own in other MX resorts.  It's almost akin to Craig's List flaggers.  As I said in another thread, we can be our own worst enemies.  



pjrose said:


> We have been subjected to high pressure and lied to at a long out-of-business resort in Cancun, and an older resort in Williamsburg.
> 
> Neither was true at Marriott presentations, a Westin presentation, and Royals presentations.
> 
> So do they all TS salespeople lie?  No.
> 
> Do they need to?  Maybe if they're selling a poor resort, but I can't imagine why those selling a resort that everyone seems to agree is very nice have to lie.



As repeated over and over, none of us Grupo owners condone the aggressive sales tactics.  It's obvious the sales team lies because they get rewarded for it...because a percentage of prospects will not read the contract &/or they will not exercise assertiveness on their own behalf. 

The sales practices puzzle and frustrate me and I can only say I am grateful Karen Rose is offering her time to help.  Yet now Karen's efforts are being questioned or ridiculed.


----------



## pjrose

muranojo said:


> As repeated over and over, none of us Grupo owners condone the aggressive sales tactics.  It's obvious the sales team lies because they get rewarded for it...because a percentage of prospects will not read the contract &/or they will not exercise assertiveness on their own behalf.
> 
> The sales practices puzzle and frustrate me and I can only say I am glad Karen Rose is offering her time to help.  Yet now Karen's efforts are being questioned or ridiculed.



In terms of the lies, at other resorts the salespeople are rewarded for making sales, but they don't always lie to make the sales.  If the resorts are as wonderful as everyone says, then they shouldn't have to lie.  It is not a necessary part of sales of timeshares or cars.  

Some of the posts above (e.g. Sally's "snookered" post) seem to blame only the buyers for not reading the contracts, not the salespeople for misleading buyers, and my inference is that she believes damage control isn't needed. Sally, have I misinterpreted you?  Do you think it's ok that the salespeople say things that aren't written in the contracts?


----------



## mikenk

pjrose said:


> In terms of the lies, at other resorts the salespeople are rewarded for making sales, but they don't always lie to make the sales.  If the resorts are as wonderful as everyone says, then they shouldn't have to lie.  It is not a necessary part of sales of timeshares or cars.
> 
> Some of the posts above (e.g. Sally's "snookered" post) seem to blame only the buyers for not reading the contracts, not the salespeople for misleading buyers, and my inference is that she believes damage control isn't needed. Sally, have I misinterpreted you?  Do you think it's ok that the salespeople say things that aren't written in the contracts?



I maintain that virtually all salespeople, and almost all retail timeshare sales, now and in the past, involved lies to make the sale - myths of rental return, myths of value appreciation, myths of current worth. That is actually the lifeblood of this forum allowing people on TUG to find the best deals from the unfortunate others who are trying to get out from under the liability of their retail contracts - vulture mentality.

The GM system just does it in volume and is very effective at high pressure to close the sales. That is the only real difference.

However, the GM system does allow something else that I have not seen elsewhere. They offer upgrade contracts that have real value to owners and can't be bought later on the open market. This approach flies in the face of TUG mentality - but works for many of us owners. I love the fact that exchangers can't get what I got; I love that all the amenities I received can't be bought on the open resale market.

Mike


----------



## sally13

*Karen, Prose,Denise...*

I believe you three must live in a sheltered world ...

It is shallow thinking to believe that ALL business transactions take place,in the same standard, ethical,up and up process that you are accustomed to.

Because you all live in the states,you think that your way of (what a sales spiel is to be)should be standard world wide...you make NO adjustment for the fact that you are doing an international deal...

Why do you think that sales folks worldwide should follow your IDEA of what a sales spiel should consist of????..ever been to Italy,Greece,South Africa,or any other distant country??

It is ALWAYS buyer beware on ALL sales everwhere...you are asking whole cultures to change the way that they have operated from the get go..

Arm twisting,fibbing,and glorification have always been sales methods in all transactions,in lesser economic locales.

and to think..as educated as some claim to be...THIS simple fact ,goes missing in the formulation of their opinion..

what matters is WHAT IS IN THE HARD CONTRACT!!....YES adults making adult transactions should READ WHAT THEY ARE BUYING....NO PITY...YES it is the foolishness of the buyer if they sign something and do not take the small amount of time to read what their pen is touching..(actually the contracts are simple and strait forward...you also get the added advantage of a seperate source telling you exactly what you are signing)..and still lazy folks,blame others for their own shortcomings...who is the party not covering their bases??



Yes...in a perfect world,you could find all transactions,hunky dory to your liking...

THIS WORLD IS FAR FROM PERFECT!!

please stay in the states,if you can not adjust to differing ways of differing peoples...

If you travel to Mexico,respect the culture and do not try to impose YOUR ideas ...do not be the righteous American tourist (the.type that moans... you do things wrong!!and I am upset...)this behavior gives us all a bad name..


----------



## sally13

*Mike..*

I completely agree with All of your above post...but somehow,someone is going to tell you, that they can get everything you  have at resale for $1.

untrue as you and I know...but

Hence the vulture minded bargain shopper..

.It is all similar to homes that cost $175k to construct...not even including land costs,.........and foreclosure kings  come offerring,$50k,.....the complete breakdown of a WORKING system...


----------



## Tropical lady

*Hello.....and in this corner!*

In THIS corner....I guess it does not matter how much Grupo Vidanta owners post that they do not agree with t/s sales tactics and try to separate the resorts from the presentations with rational facts.  
In THAT corner......our comments seem to be of no value and we continue to read about how bad the resort is and on and on and on........
Hello........did I just finish reading comments concerning Wyndham?  I think I did.  Oh my....Marriott was mentioned too.  Almost forgot, not too long ago NHKrystal was inserted in a complaint section.  The list can go on and on.
No t/s is immune from bad sales presentations, some more than others.  No t/s is immune from unhappy customers who made the purchase for the wrong reasons.
In BOTH corners.....Instead of nitpicking and rehashing what is repeated hundreds of times, we should continue to focus on owners working with their companies, giving feedback, and not stopping until we might be able to see some change.  "Unrealistic expectation", probably so.  But I value my resort enough to make an investment of my time in addition to the money invested at the beginning.


----------



## Karen G

As usual, a discussion about Grupo sales tactics has gone downhill again and the mudslinging has started.  There area few points that intrigue me, though.  





muranojo said:


> Agree 100% with Phyllis.
> In fact, I have noted for some time that some of the more vocal posters in these Grupo threads have been TUGgers who are also fellow MX owners--who own in other MX resorts.  It's almost akin to Craig's List flaggers.  As I said in another thread, we can be our own worst enemies.


 I am an owner of another Mexican resort, Pueblo Bonito Rose in Cabo, but I don't understand what the above reference implies. How does disagreeing with Grupo sales practices somehow put me into the "own worst enemy" category?



mikenk said:


> I maintain that virtually all salespeople, and almost all retail timeshare sales, now and in the past, involved lies to make the sale . . .The GM system just does it in volume and is very effective at high pressure to close the sales. That is the only real difference.


 So now GM is somehow to be admired because they lie so much more and to so many more people?



sally13 said:


> I believe you three must live in a sheltered world ...
> 
> please stay in the states,if you can not adjust to differing ways of differing peoples...
> 
> If you travel to Mexico,respect the culture and do not try to impose YOUR ideas ...do not be the righteous American tourist (the.type that moans... you do things wrong!!and I am upset...)this behavior gives us all a bad name..


 Now I shouldn't even travel to Mexico because I don't agree with the way Grupo does business?

I can understand that owners of Grupo properties who wish to rent out their weeks or want to somehow keep their gold crown rating might be upset if anyone else has a less than stellar opinion of the properties. But, to now try to justify high pressure dishonest sales practices and to criticize anyone else who disagrees is just a bit much.

Apart from people posting on TUG about the dishonest resale scams that are so prevalent nowadays, it seems that we get the most complaints about the Grupo sales practices. It's interesting that the stories posted are almost always the very same, and the responses given are usually the same, too. 

As has been said many times before--the quality of the Grupo properties is not in question. They are great resorts that offer fine vacation experiences.  Their sales practices--not so much.


----------



## rpennisi

Tropical lady said:


> ...In THAT corner......our comments seem to be of no value and we continue to read about how bad the resort is and on and on and on........



You must be reading different posts than I have.  I believe, without exception, everyone, owners and non owners, have remarked that there is quality and enjoyment in the Grupo Mayan resorts.  What everyone does seem to agree with is the slimy salespersons for the first time visitors who through hours of "presentation" and multiple "sales staff" wear the first time visitor down.  This has been a model used by Grupo Mayan for a long time.  The model has not changed and probably will not change because they get results ($$), even though those results often omit, purposely, promises that have been made to the first time visitor.  I have not encountered this "model" in any of the other timeshare presentations that I have gone to over the years.
Ron


----------



## rpennisi

sally13 said:


> I believe you three must live in a sheltered world ...
> 
> 
> 
> Because you all live in the states,you think that your way of (what a sales spiel is to be)should be standard world wide...you make NO adjustment for the fact that you are doing an international deal...
> 
> 
> Arm twisting,fibbing,and glorification have always been sales methods in all transactions,in lesser economic locales.
> 
> 
> please stay in the states,if you can not adjust to differing ways of differing peoples...
> 
> If you travel to Mexico,respect the culture and do not try to impose YOUR ideas ...do not be the righteous American tourist (the.type that moans... you do things wrong!!and I am upset...)this behavior gives us all a bad name..



Sally, 
I find these comments highly insulting.  So it is the Mexican culture that allows for the sales deceit that goes on!  Respect the culture??!!  Ugly American throwing around $$, not a respect of the Mexican culture is what comes to my mind.  And, if you are not an American, you sure are doing a very good imitation of the above.  
Ron


----------



## pjrose

rpennisi said:


> Sally,
> I find these comments highly insulting.  So it is the Mexican culture that allows for the sales deceit that goes on!  Respect the culture??!!  Ugly American throwing around $$, not a respect of the Mexican culture is what comes to my mind.  And, if you are not an American, you sure are doing a very good imitation of the above.
> Ron



Thanks for posting this Ron.  I was talking about SALES tactics, and the response turned into personal insults against us.  Therefore I won't even bother to reply to her comments.


----------



## DeniseM

> It is ALWAYS buyer beware on ALL sales everwhere...you are asking whole cultures to change the way that they have operated from the get go..
> 
> Arm twisting,fibbing,and glorification have always been sales methods in all transactions,in lesser economic locales.  please stay in the states,if you can not adjust to differing ways of differing peoples...
> 
> If you travel to Mexico,respect the culture and do not try to impose YOUR ideas ...do not be the righteous American tourist



So..... you are saying that Mexicans are naturally dishonest and devious - it's part of their culture, and it's wrong to expect honesty from them?  WOW!


----------



## kenie

We are at the Grand Luxxe right now, and it truly is a beautiful property. The amenities are great and the entire property is obviously well cared for and maintained. I have no issues with the property itself and would not mind spending a lot more time here and the wife said this would be a nice one to own.
We did attend the sales pitch and didn't find it that bad from a pressure stand-point but we got tired of being lied to.
-Being told that they are governed by ARDA because they are doing international sales and PROFECO only applies to Mexican Nationals.  HUH??
-Paying for 1 week but getting 3 and turning the 3 into 18 weeks. When I asked where the inventory comes from I was told they are only allowed to sell to a 70% fill rate......Still doesn't add up.
-no mention of Registered or Residential(?)weeks or what the difference is.
-Rental income.......
-Wyndham owning all the exchange companies and HSI being a super exchange company with first access to everything.
-lots of other stuff...

When we did a meeting at the Royal Haciendas the only pressure we got was that with the tri-royals closing in the next few years, there would be a lot of competition for any units at the Sands or the Haciendas so we shouldn`t wait to purchase. That was it. We knew what was being offered.

At the Grand Mayan it was sign now or else.  You have 5 minutes......

The consumer shouldn`t have to sign a contract in order to see what they are actually buying. Put it in writing, let me look at it and if I have any questions we`ll go from there. These sales seminars have been designed by professionals to sell something by placing most buyers in a situation were they DO NOT function normally. To place the blame on the buyer if they realize to late they got screwed is not always right. Most people do not know the right kind of questions to ask and even some of the owners on here have posted that they had only just noticed certain language in their contracts relating to different items.

No one is knocking the properties... Only the sales tactics....


----------



## pjrose

kenie said:


> When we did a meeting at the Royal Haciendas the only pressure we got was that with the tri-royals closing in the next few years, there would be a lot of competition for any units at the Sands or the Haciendas so we shouldn`t wait to purchase. That was it. We knew what was being offered.
> 
> At the Grand Mayan it was sign now or else.  You have 5 minutes......
> 
> *The consumer shouldn`t have to sign a contract in order to see what they are actually buying. Put it in writing, let me look at it and if I have any questions we`ll go from there.* . . .
> 
> No one is knocking the properties... Only the sales tactics....



They don't show you the contract in advance?  Good grief, we had all the Royals contracts AND price lists in front of us so we could compare everything during the entire sales presentation!

They actually had sample contracts and price lists right on the literature wall along with the resort maps and so forth!  Take it back to your villa, look through it, come back tomorrow with questions....that is all standard Royal Resorts sales procedure.


----------



## kenie

I agree. That is what the Royals was like. Very simple. What you see is what you get.
When we told the Grand Mayan sales people that we wanted to take the scratch sheets and notes back to the room and look it over, they flat out refused and told us we had 5 minutes to make our decision.
With them the only way to see what is actually in the final agreement seems to be to sign the contract so you can look it over.

We weren't willing to do that and have to try to sort out any issues after the fact especially when they were telling us that PROFECO didn't apply to us as we were "International".

I wonder how many people have got caught by that lie?


----------



## Tropical lady

The price list ( laminated and glossy) was dangled in front of us in addition to the contract.  THEY had to sit while we went through the contract BEFORE signing anything.  In fact, with the last upgrade during the presentation/negotiations, we left for lunch, took with us the "circles and boxes" scratch sheets to look over,  told them the time we would be back, took a quick swim, and went back and signed.  By now the sales person was ready to leave.....they can't leave until you are finished!  I would never sign to purchase anything without a review of the contract first.
To be upfront, this was an upgrade, for the third time, not the initial purchase.  You were wise not to fall for the "5 minute routine".


----------



## easyrider

We have attended many timeshare presentations for gifts or to view the property. The presentation that was the most painfull was the Grand Mayan. These guys are going to hard sell for at least 3 hours with multiple angles and multiple sales staff. We had to endure 5 presenters with 3 different concepts.

I do like the Grand Mayans but feel like they are too big for us. I really like the size of the Pueblo Bonitos and Villa del Palmars. Just right.


----------



## rpennisi

Tropical lady said:


> ...To be upfront, this was an upgrade, for the third time, not the initial purchase.  You were wise not to fall for the "5 minute routine".



And that is why your experience (a second time upgrader) and Kenie's (a first timer) was so different.  It's a shame that Grupo Mayan/ Grupo Vidanta (I assume that is what some are referring to as Grand Mayan) doesn't treat all presentations the same.
Ron


----------



## MuranoJo

muranojo said:


> Agree 100% with Phyllis.
> In fact, I have noted for some time that some of the more vocal posters in these Grupo threads have been TUGgers who are also fellow MX owners--who own in other MX resorts.  It's almost akin to Craig's List flaggers.  As I said in another thread, we can be our own worst enemies.





Karen G said:


> As usual, a discussion about Grupo sales tactics has gone downhill again and the mudslinging has started.  There area few points that intrigue me, though.
> 
> I am an owner of another Mexican resort, Pueblo Bonito Rose in Cabo, but I don't understand what the above reference implies. How does disagreeing with Grupo sales practices somehow put me into the "own worst enemy" category?



In a nutshell, it's because people tend to generalize.

Continuing to 'dig' at another MX t/s for aggressive sales practices which owners or 'members' on this forum have repeatedly acknowledged and do not condone is just continuing to build a negative perception, overall, of MX. 

Jo/Joe Public likely won't step away from these threads thinking, "Gee, the Royals or Pueblo Bonito are great, but I gotta stay away from Grupo." She/he will most likely walk away feeling even more uncomfortable with MX in general.
Combined with the Sticky of 'Safety of Travel to MX', the recurrent theme on this forum and on the buying/selling/renting forum, and voila!  I have close friends and even DH who seriously question MX because of this type of exposure.  

You may disagree with Grupo sales practices all you want, and we owners will certainly agree with your disagreement.  But please note, this thread started out with a guest who came here for help. Tropical Lady assisted the OP with Karen's contact info.  The OP's problem was resolved.  Then the FUD factor started.

Now, why has this gone downhill and it's degenerated into 'mudslinging'?  Well, I believe it started with the #10 post, then went to #12 and #14--all from TUGgers, two who own in non-Grupo MX locations.   

That's what I meant by, "...we can be our own worst enemies."


----------



## pjrose

muranojo said:


> In a nutshell, it's because people tend to generalize.
> 
> Continuing to 'dig' at another MX t/s for aggressive sales practices which owners or 'members' on this forum have repeatedly acknowledged and do not condone is just continuing to build a negative perception, overall, of MX.
> 
> Jo/Joe Public likely won't step away from these threads thinking, "Gee, the Royals or Pueblo Bonito are great, but I gotta stay away from Grupo." She/he will most likely walk away feeling even more uncomfortable with MX in general.
> Combined with the Sticky of 'Safety of Travel to MX', the recurrent theme on this forum and on the buying/selling/renting forum, and voila!  I have close friends and even DH who seriously question MX because of this type of exposure.
> 
> You may disagree with Grupo sales practices all you want, and we owners will certainly agree with your disagreement.  But please note, this thread started out with a guest who came here for help. Tropical Lady assisted the OP with Karen's contact info.  The OP's problem was resolved.  Then the FUD factor started.
> 
> Now, why has this gone downhill and it's degenerated into 'mudslinging'?  Well, I believe it started with the #10 post, then went to #12 and #14--all from TUGgers, two who own in non-Grupo MX locations.
> 
> That's what I meant by, "...we can be our own worst enemies."



I agree with much of your post, and agree that we are beating a dead horse with the repetition on the GM sales tactics and safety (or lack thereof) in Mexico.  

I don't get, though, how posts 10, 12, and 14 could have been the ones that took this downhill - all three, and mine was one, were simply wondering how the problem was resolved.  Just curiosity, nothing more.


----------



## DeniseM

TUG is an open forum - Everyone is welcome to post on any thread, as long as they don't violate the TUG posting rules.  The only one in this thread who violated the TUG posting rules, is an owner at the resort. 





> TUG Posting Rules:  As we read and respond to others, disagreements are inevitable. Differing points of view are welcomed, and indeed the bbs would be a dull place without them. All users are expected and required to express their disagreements civilly. Refrain from name calling and behavior lectures. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and repeated offenses could get you banned from the bbs. Lively discussion is what the board is all about, but that is no excuse for boorish behavior or bad manners. We are assumed to all be adults.* If you don't like a particular thread, stop reading it!*


----------



## Tropical lady

Muranojo,
Great post....agree 100%+ with all that you said!!
Pjrose,
My interpretation of the posts mentioned is that it was not enough to see an outcome, but an unyielding request to "tell all".  Fine with me if the OP wanted to do that.....fine with me if the OP did not want to....ok with me if that is part of the resolution.  The original complaints/situation were already out there. Common sense tells me it was resolved to the OP's satisfaction. I understand the want to know, but keep it in perspective. Then as usual, the thread takes a life of its own.
Rpennisi,
We do read the same posts, I see it differently.  Muanojo stated it much better than I did.  I meant that no matter how often some of us post our disappointment with sales and do not approve...we see in this post and others too, on the same subject, one ex: "how can you defend these practices".....it continues.  Frustrating since there was no defense, no approval, no kudoes posted for sales.  I agree that for the most part, excluding some occasional sly comments about the resorts, most do acknowledge the quality and enjoyment.  Also one correction, since I want facts to be accurate....I stated it was our 3rd upgrade, not second.  And we have met another couple who did this on the initial presentation (make the sales wait until you read the contract in their presence), which gave us the idea for our 2nd upgrade.  I confess I can't take the credit for the idea.
Handling t/s's are better than any brain games you could play!!


----------



## rpennisi

Tropical lady said:


> Rpennisi,
> ...  Also one correction, since I want facts to be accurate....I stated it was our 3rd upgrade, not second.  And we have met another couple who did this on the initial presentation (make the sales wait until you read the contract in their presence), which gave us the idea for our 2nd upgrade.  I confess I can't take the credit for the idea...


Wow, so you went from MP to GM to GB to GL!!  In what time frame were all these upgrades made?  Just curious, not trying to intrude as it is thought posts #10,12,14 were doing.  So, like the OP, your response or nonresponse is up to you.
Ron


----------



## sally13

*post #20....*

is where it went south...imho...

and I quote...

"Karen Rose is JUST doing damage controll in a carefully planned P R. move''

this implies Grupo does not really care about sales problems..

also thousands ARE satisfied with the grupo sales force...

it is perhaps the ones that want the freebies,and not want to give the sales force their proper chance at making a sale...that are upset


----------



## sally13

*as far as...*

my post implying Mexicans are dishonest as a culture...

This is silly,and not what I was getting at at all...

I was just pointing out that other customs and business methods are not what you might find in the states and one should expect this...to expect all sales folks worldwide to present the same is folly...

please do not put words ,where there are none...


----------



## DeniseM

sally13 said:


> "Karen Rose is JUST doing damage controll in a carefully planned P R. move''
> 
> this implies Grupo does not really care about sales problems..



They don't care - if they cared, their sales presentations would be honest in the first place.  Instead, Grupo Myan lies to people, and then sends a PR person to TUG to do damage control.


----------



## sally13

*They never were dishonest to me!!*

They perhaps let me think what I wanted to think ...but never lied..

this IS the way many sales go down...Why pick on the Palace??

why not every used car salesperson as well???

Often the lie that many claim is really just an assumption on the  party minded buyer...going for a freeby...can they NOT read what they sign???

no pity for lazy...


----------



## Ridewithme38

sally13 said:


> They perhaps let me think what I wanted to think ...but never lied..
> 
> this IS the way many sales go down...Why pick on the Palace??
> 
> why not every used car salesperson as well???
> 
> Often the lie that many claim is really just an assumption on the  party minded buyer...going for a freeby...can they NOT read what they sign???
> 
> no pity for lazy...



Wasn't the issue of the OP that they promised additional weeks that we're available...I've never had a car salesperson tell me i'm getting a second car with the purchase of one...then never deliver it...

Alot is said that all salesman are dishonest....but really there are degrees of dishonesty....a TV salesman can't tell you a TV does 1080P when its a 720P TV...a car dealer can't get away with selling you a V6 and telling you its a V8...and even if they do...you can return the product at any point based on that lie....TS salesman go above and beyond to the point where in some cases its fraud and in Most cases its on the border of fraud, not to mention they have you sign a legal infinite contract while witholding paper work...based on those lies....I still don't get how the TS salesman aren't held libel for breaking Verbal contracts, when in most other cases verbal contracts are completely legal and binding


----------



## Karen G

muranojo said:


> .  Then the FUD factor started.
> 
> Now, why has this gone downhill and it's degenerated into 'mudslinging'?  Well, I believe it started with the #10 post, then went to #12 and #14--all from TUGgers, two who own in non-Grupo MX locations.


 The FUD factor? Really??!!  Merely asking for the details of the "satisfactory resolution" is  spreading "Fear, Uncertainty, & Doubt "?

This thread was started by a first time poster who hasn't posted anything since starting this thread. It wouldn't be the first time someone has come on TUG with a problem and then posts a complimentary resolution for some company or business. Shills routinely show up. If someone comes here asking for advice and others willingly give their advice or experiences, I don't think it's too much to ask to get "the rest of the story."  It would be extremely helpful to others who might be dealing with a similar situation.

Despite what you seem to be implying, I have no ulterior motive because of the fact that I own at another Mexican resort.  My resort has been sold out for a number of years and they aren't even selling there anymore. I have no problem with anyone else's opinion or experience at Pueblo Bonito Rose or any other PB resort. It's their opinion/experience and it has no effect on me. My experience has generally been very positive and that's all that matters to me personally. If others have had a different or negative experience, I'm sorry that happened to them, and if there were any information I could pass on to them to help, I'd gladly do so. 




muranojo said:


> Jo/Joe Public likely won't step away from these threads thinking, "Gee, the Royals or Pueblo Bonito are great, but I gotta stay away from Grupo." She/he will most likely walk away feeling even more uncomfortable with MX in general.
> Combined with the Sticky of 'Safety of Travel to MX', the recurrent theme on this forum and on the buying/selling/renting forum, and voila! I have close friends and even DH who seriously question MX because of this type of exposure.




If Jo/Joe Public make their vacation destination decisions based on the sales practices of Grupo, then that's their choice. It seems like it would just be simpler to not go to a timeshare presentation there and just enjoy  their vacation.  I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they'd never go to any vacation destination  because they heard that there were evil timeshare salesmen waiting to pounce on them. Also, regarding the Safety of Mexico thread, I think there are far more posts that are positive toward Mexico travel than negative.


----------



## DeniseM

> this IS the way many sales go down...Why pick on the Palace??
> 
> why not every used car salesperson as well???



Sally, I know that you aren't familiar with the rest of TUG, but every single TUG forum has complaints about the other developers - all of them.  Every system has it's supporters and haters.  

So, just as you are allowed to post your support of Grupo Mayan (as long as you don't violate the TUG posting rules) others are allowed to post negative comments - that's just the way it is.


----------



## jlf58

Sales people are TAUGHT to sell. In this case they are TAUGHT to lie. Do I think every one of them lie and have the same pitch, YES !! 





sally13 said:


> They perhaps let me think what I wanted to think ...but never lied..
> 
> this IS the way many sales go down...Why pick on the Palace??
> 
> wh
> no pity for lazy...


----------



## Tropical lady

I'm sure no one else has any interest, but just to answer Rpennisi about the upgrades.  AND you may have a laugh on me.......  
2007, first visit with friends using their new MP timeshare......wow....we will NEVER buy a t/s, not for us....but wow!  New program is "no MF unless use", additional vacation fair week, more benefits.  Hmmmm....friend's are now interested and might upgrade.  Prices...yeah right.  You can negotiate??  Hey...looks good.  Celebrate as we just bought a 1 bdrm MP regency.  Next day...made a mistake since we usually travel with friends should have bought the 2 bdrm.  Ugh!!  DH takes a walk.....we just traded in for a 2bdrm for VERY little more.  Celebrate again.  Compared to having our sailboat we are saving money!!
2008, second visit taking friends with us.  Update?  why not....what the heck?  Negotiate..not interested,...credit towards upgrade.....celebrate.  Just like trading in a car.
2009, #3 presentation...hohum.  New Bliss, GB, GL, GLV?  Hey show me.  Credit..negotiate...sales have to wait while we read the contract slowly.....thinking, thinking.....GB,celebrate.  Still less expensive than our boat.
2010, first week no presentation.....just curious.  Second week I HAVE to find out, can't stand it!  That's it...the GL AND THAT IS IT....done, finished, now just enjoying!
While I make lite of our experiences, we were so lucky, because we were soooo uninformed, to have a positive experience the first time....again just dumb luck.  After that we really tried to learn.  The Luxxe owners group were a wealth of info as they shared costs, contract details, negotiations, etc, so we did have info ahead of time for the last upgrade.
Hopefully you got a chuckle and not bored to death......Please don't tell me if you did get bored.


----------



## mikenk

Tropical Lady,

My guess is that only us folks that have been through the GM process will appreciate your story, but I did. Thanks.

I had gone through a couple of the GM high pressure pitches while visiting with RCI friends. I then bought resale from a TUG member.

On my first trip back as an owner, went to the update, they were just announcing the GB (with free golf); after credit based on the original owner purchase price, golf alone would pay for the upgrade. I did it. After reviewing the contract, I didn't like a couple of things and rescinded the next day. The following day, they (member Services / not sales) started offering new addenda, so I eventually rebought.

A year later, I decided I wanted more weeks. While in Cabo, I asked Member Services if I found me a another Grand Mayan on resale, would they give me the same deal. She said they would and she would work with me to pull it off. I then discovered the Grand Luxxe and over several months of discussion, I upgraded again through her.

Could I have done this with other timeshares? Maybe, but I doubt it as they just don't have the flexibility.

To be honest, I could do without the high pressure initial sales game, but most people deal with it just fine and some learn to exploit it. I understand that many on this forum go ballistic even if they have never experienced it; I also understand that many feel taken advantage of and find TUG a great place to vent. However, I do believe it is very important to realize that any prudent consumer will have no problem and can find deals not available in any other timeshare system.

Mike


----------



## jlf58

Thats makes no sense. lets go over timeshare sales 101. If they throw in things or give you deals that means they can give everyone that and were ripping you off in the first place. It amazes me that some people on here think they are high level negotiaters. They didnt drop the price or add incentives because of you, they did that because they could and you felt very smart ,, !! 



mikenk said:


> Tropical Lady,
> 
> My guess is that only us folks that have been through the GM process will appreciate your story, but I did. Thanks.
> 
> I had gone through a couple of the GM high pressure pitches while visiting with RCI friends. I then bought resale from a TUG member.
> 
> On my first trip back as an owner, went to the update, they were just announcing the GB (with free golf); after credit based on the original owner purchase price, golf alone would pay for the upgrade. I did it. After reviewing the contract, I didn't like a couple of things and rescinded the next day. The following day, they (member Services / not sales) started offering new addenda, so I eventually rebought.
> 
> A year later, I decided I wanted more weeks. While in Cabo, I asked Member Services if I found me a another Grand Mayan on resale, would they give me the same deal. She said they would and she would work with me to pull it off. I then discovered the Grand Luxxe and over several months of discussion, I upgraded again through her.
> 
> Could I have done this with other timeshares? Maybe, but I doubt it as they just don't have the flexibility.
> 
> To be honest, I could do without the high pressure initial sales game, but most people deal with it just fine and some learn to exploit it. I understand that many on this forum go ballistic even if they have never experienced it; I also understand that many feel taken advantage of and find TUG a great place to vent. However, I do believe it is very important to realize that any prudent consumer will have no problem and can find deals not available in any other timeshare system.
> 
> Mike


----------



## Tropical lady

*any laughs out there??*

Thanks Mike,
Looks like my post brought everything to a screetching halt!!
I don't expect alcholades because we were dumb lucky.  They could have eaten us alive the first time or two around.  And unless you have been there, you can't really relate to the experience.  Oh well all's good.
I got a request for info...I gave it...end of story.  I hope there were a few chuckles out there....


----------



## Tropical lady

*rethink this......dumb luck equals high level negotiator?*

Sorry Fletch, but did not feel smart, and was not smart....as I said "dumb lucky" the first two times.  I don't equate dumb luck with being a high level negotiator.  If one does then that is a problem.  The next two times, maybe so that we held our own and I'll pat myself on the back for those.  I put my story out there with some humor....don't tell me that I am implying otherwise.  Thank you


----------



## ondeadlin

I love every time one of these threads comes up.

Because I sincerely believe that Grand Mayan sales staff is particularly bad brand of timeshare sales, probably the most unethical in the Western Hemisphere given the various complaints to Better Business Bureaus and all over the Internets. And the fact the company tolerates them is an indictment of the entire organization, no matter how satisfied you claim to be.

And no matter how many pro-Mayan owners beat up on the poor folks suckered by the lies of the Grand Mayan sales staff, or the educated non-Mayan owners here who view the company with disdain, and no matter how many people the Grand Mayan TUG rep buys off, the continued presence of these threads says everything you need to know about the resort. 

Everything.

So have at it folks. The more you post, the more likely these threads are to come up on Google and the more people who are warned.

PS: Great job trying, Fletch. Appreciate someone else taking a turn getting beat up by Grand Mayan owners who don't care how many people are ripped off as long as they can exploit the struggling Mexican economy and ripped off sales prospects for a great vacation.


----------



## rpennisi

Tropical lady said:


> I'm sure no one else has any interest, but just to answer Rpennisi about the upgrades.  AND you may have a laugh on me.......
> Hopefully you got a chuckle and not bored to death......Please don't tell me if you did get bored.



Thanks for sharing (that must be some boat).
Ron


----------



## rpennisi

sally13 said:


> They perhaps let me think what I wanted to think ...but never lied..
> 
> this IS the way many sales go down...Why pick on the Palace??
> 
> why not every used car salesperson as well???
> 
> Often the lie that many claim is really just an assumption on the  party minded buyer...going for a freeby...can they NOT read what they sign???
> 
> no pity for lazy...



Why are you trying so hard to give car salespersons such a bad name?  Did you *really enjoy* your first Mayan presentation?...come on be honest about it.
Ron


----------



## rpennisi

sally13 said:


> my post implying Mexicans are dishonest as a culture...
> 
> please do not put words ,where there are none...



*NO, NO...*, you wrote, "It is shallow thinking to believe that ALL business transactions take place,in the same standard, ethical,up and up process that you are accustomed to...
Arm twisting,fibbing,and glorification have always been sales methods in all transactions,in lesser economic locales.


----------



## sally13

*My problem...*

I am sorry...bare with me here.. but I just have a huge problem with folks that do not appreciate business... 

NEW SALES THAT PROVIDE FUNDS ...MAKE BETTER RESORTS!!

Tropical Lady...Feel good about your purchase...You as well as I have provided the actual funds that build these great resorts!!! 

This is one FACT that this board can not deny..

There is something (Moral) about this fact that makes me feel ...well.. just ..GOOD!!

 I  have always worked hard for my $$$ and am a tell it like it is soul..

I appreciate a great product for a fair price...and am willing  to pay for the priveledge..

Others want something for nothing..this just makes me sad...as it is the end of the greatness that our country was built on..

I will not join this mentality..period!

Mexico IS not the states..and businesss IS conducted  in a different manner...

Heck!  ..when we first purchased..I had NO IDEA how great my vacations would turn out,THANK YOU..Grupo...For twisting my arm!! and fibbing (A LITTLE)...because of this ..My family and friends have enjoyed countless awesome vacations ,at four Seasons QAULITY,in your resorts!!!


----------



## pjrose

I don't want something for nothing.  I paid full price for my first two timeshares, bought the next two at developer resale, and the next ones via eBay etc.  

What I do want is honesty.  I want the words that come from the salesperson's mouth to match the words that are on the contract.  I want the opportunity to review said contract at my leisure.  

I expect that with cars, houses, appliances, timeshares - everything.

Do I get it every time?  No.  Do I realize that some industries and some cultures involve less of that kind of honesty than others?  Yes.

However, there ARE honest timeshare salespeople and salespitches.  Some of them are in Mexico.

Since it was mentioned above, there ALSO are honest car dealers and car salesmen.  I have bought ten used cars from the same salesman/dealership.  Why?  Because they are honest, they sell good cars, and they don't make promises that they don't keep.  In fact that salesman has one of my signed checks in his desk drawer just waiting for the next time what we call a "PJ Car" is traded in - so he can mark it sold immediately and then call me to come check it out.  He gets my repeat business because he's never steered me wrong.  Oh yeah, my ATT cell phone salesman also gets my repeat business - I won't get phones from anyone else, because he tells me what's good AND what isn't, fixes any problems, etc.  

Of course I ALSO read the contracts - very carefully - but you know what?  If I ever hear a sales pitch that doesn't match the contract, I'm highly unlikely to ever do business with that place or person again!  

Why do I object to GM's sales practices when I'm not even an owner there?  Because their tactics of making verbal representations that are not backed up in writing (at least not unless someone double-checks and insists), and of making it difficult for people to rescind - and yes I'm sure other places do the same - give timeshares, and Mexican ones in particular, a bad name, and that hurts all the timeshares, including the honest ones.  And that hurts me, because if I want to rent or resell at my resorts, the value may be hurt by "Mexican timeshares" having a bad name.


----------



## sally13

*Ron...*

My first look at Mayan Palace...

We arrived in Cancun on a Sunset resort vacation...

This was a nice resort with sales folks that would trump the Palace!!

we were at the pool bar and could not help hearing all the hub bub about this NEW resort...

knowing real estate..we drove out to take a look..

we were told the tours were done for the day, but were told we could use the pool and beach for the day to get a FEEL for the resort..

Went back the next day purchased a grand mayan...BEST $$$ that we EVER spent on vacation ...

since then we have spent tens of weeks living like royalty and exploring the great country of Mexico...

You see... we do not just sit in a pool chair,chilling...(not that ,that is wrong)

We seek to really discover this place...and there is  not any way better then to have a home base ,that you can count on...safe food..safe security...folks that treat you like royalty!!each and every time!!


----------



## DeniseM

sally13 said:


> I am sorry...bare with me here..



What?  It's a clothing optional resort?  Now wait a minute....did you know that before you bought?


----------



## sally13

*Pjrose...*

you DO NOT GET IT...and I do not care...

The reading of the contract is ALL that matters!!

If the Mayan Palace employs a less then honest salesperson,then he or she will eventually be discovered,and terminated..



As for You wanting to PUNISH all the great folks that built ,maintain and presently work for Grupo....I cry foul!! 

You slander and demean, all of the owners and employees in the company!!!

A few bad salespeople..and you publicly cry..STAY AWAY!!

silly..

Business is full of mistakes and bad behavior..ever check your 401k???

good luck!!


----------



## sally13

*Sorry Denise..*

I forget that I am talking with a school teacher..My BAD...Shall I go Ghetto???should I wear your readily available dunce hat??and sit in the corner??..Will you pull my ears??

I went to a catholic grade school..you remind me of sister Mary...She eventually quit teaching...

by the way,,HAVE YOU BEEN DRINKING DENISE???


----------



## DeniseM

Sally - I think you missed the pun - "bare with me" = "take your clothes off with me."

I think you meant "bear with me."

You are a never ending source of funny quotes.


----------



## sally13

*no miss on the pun..*

I choose not to use spell check and I am human! believe it or not!

just not used to being so nit picked...

If I said that (I BRUNG A COOLER TO THE POOL)you might have a melt down!!


----------



## DeniseM

sally13 said:


> If I said that (I BRUNG A COOLER TO THE POOL)you might have a melt down!!



I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "brung," in California - must be a big city thing.


----------



## rpennisi

DeniseM said:


> I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "brung," in California - must be a big city thing.



Yep, Brooklyn, used to live there.  Reminds me of _Cousin Vinny_ and two yutes.
Ron
PS to Sally
As a proud retired teacher (Biology, 30 years), these have been your most insulting remarks yet.  Can't wait to read what comes next.  And by the way, being human has nothing to do with it.  Spell check wouldn't distinguish between *bare and bear.* However, proof reading before posting would help.


----------



## mikenk

Fletch said:


> Thats makes no sense. lets go over timeshare sales 101. If they throw in things or give you deals that means they can give everyone that and were ripping you off in the first place. It amazes me that some people on here think they are high level negotiaters. They didnt drop the price or add incentives because of you, they did that because they could and you felt very smart ,, !!



And therein lies the problem on these threads about the GM system - way too many assumptions and way too little understanding. 

Yes, the GM sales process is high pressure, fast talking, and make promises that don't make it into the contract. Defeating it is easy - just read the contract. If that fact drives you bonkers; fine - just stay away. BTW, don't think for a minute that all retail timeshares aren't based on false assumptions or lies. I believe that all standard timeshare retail sales are complete ripoffs.

The other side of the story is different. What is in the contract is honored and the contracts are not your garden variety timeshares of just space usage. They offer more amenities and allow a level of customization not found elsewhere. It is not about negotiating; it is about understanding the system, what you want in vacations, and matching the two. If all one wants is a typical timeshare, then the GM system is not for you - plenty of those are available for nothing which is probably more than most are worth.  

Realistically, very few here really care to understand the system or opportunities; it is just about the sales process of which most have never even experienced. 

Mike


----------



## KarenLK

I have never met pjrose, but we own at the same group of resorts. 

I would bet that we both have identical or nearly identical contracts. No add-ons for free golf, no maintenance once you reach a certain age,  no bonus weeks, and no need to go to an update meeting to upgrade your contract, except to sell you another week. 

We probably both paid the price off the price list; prices vary based on the season and location of the fixed unit. You pay more for a better view and a higher season, but there are no extras. Many of us see the same salesman or saleswoman year after year.

I can't imagine that Grupo owners have equal contracts. We do.


----------



## mikenk

KarenLK said:


> I have never met pjrose, but we own at the same group of resorts.
> 
> I would bet that we both have identical or nearly identical contracts. No add-ons for free golf, no maintenance once you reach a certain age,  no bonus weeks, and no need to go to an update meeting to upgrade your contract, except to sell you another week.
> 
> We probably both paid the price off the price list; prices vary based on the season and location of the fixed unit. You pay more for a better view and a higher season, but there are no extras. Many of us see the same salesman or saleswoman year after year.
> 
> I can't imagine that Grupo owners have equal contracts. We do.



You are exactly right. The typical timeshare contract is the same for all whether you buy retail or resale. Of course, anyone knowing that would never buy retail. IMHO, that is a fundamentally flawed model as all retail timeshares would have to be sold by misrepresenting the worth to the unsuspecting consumer. This model is embraced by TUG as it offers resale opportunities for TUG members. 

Grupo Mayan contracts can be customized to a degree based on individual vacation goals; I suspect that every contract of the owners posting here are indeed different. It is also a fact that people can not buy on the open resale market what we own. Therefore, in my opinion, this offers a much fairer environment for the consumer in a retail environment. 

From a business perspective, if I was a timeshare resort owner, I would do everything in my power to kill the open resale market on my product. Otherwise, I could only make sales by misrepresenting the worth.

Mike


----------



## sally13

*geez Ron...*

you are insulted too easy...would not last a minute around here...or is that hair..?? 

The fact that some shoppers get mad when they bring home fat-free cheese,when they were in too much of a hurry,(OR CLUELESS)to grab the regular cheese,does not surprise me....What does, is the fact that they are buying tens of thousands of packages of cheese and do not care to read the label!! 

Insulting???sorry... just not very school teacher like...even us poor city.." utes"..or youths,I mean... know how to bring home the correct cheese...

And If we did bring home the wrong cheese,we would not rag and cry about how the local  store owner tricks folks into buying the wrong cheese!!

we "utes",would not tell all our fellow "Utes",to stay away from the tricky cheese salesman...we would eat our thousands of packs of crummy fat-free cheese and feel a little silly,that as educated as we THOUGHT we were,we still were not bright enough to READ what we bought before buying it!!duh!

Man...I wish I had YOU for biology...on a field trip...the fun would never stop!!

my cousin Vinny says hello!


----------



## sally13

*Karen...*

Why must all sales systems work the way that YOUR resort system works??


----------



## kenie

Sally, your cheese analogy is silly.

If I go into a store and purchase the wrong type of cheese by mistake when they are both clearly labeled, that is my fault and I would eat the fat free cheese.

In the Grupo Mayan store, both types of cheese are labeled the same and packaged the same but the fat free is printed on the inside of the package. The only way I can find out which one is fat free is to buy a package and take it home and open it right away because the store only wants to sell cheese.

I should not be told to buy something if I want to see what I am actually ending up with..... I have to get a credit check done or put a charge on my credit card just to see what actually makes it into the final contract?

As I said before, the resort itself is wonderful and down the road we may look at it again, perhaps like mike by buying resale and trading up.

The salesman that we had were liars and that is the problem I have. I don't understand how someone would condone that kind of behaviour from a representative of a company that you obviously think highly of. That is our only negative with the Grand Luxxe.
n


----------



## mikenk

kenie said:


> The salesman that we had were liars and that is the problem I have. I don't understand how someone would condone that kind of behaviour from a representative of a company that you obviously think highly of. That is our only negative with the Grand Luxxe.
> n



Actually, none of us condone it. Every time I go in, I complain about that (among other things) and will continue to do so. However, looking past that for a moment, I still maintain that it is the only timeshare system that you can actually buy retail (at least at upgrade levels) and have a fighting chance not to be a total ripoff. I would feel totally cheated if I bought something today thinking it as a fair value only to learn I could buy precisely the same thing for pennies on the dollar. That seems perfectly acceptable on this forum - not to me.

Mike


----------



## Karen G

sally13 said:


> Why must all sales systems work the way that YOUR resort system works??


Don't all "sales systems" work the same way?  A company has a product to sell. They hire salesmen to sell the product. Customers either buy the product or they don't.

If the owner/developer of a timeshare resort knowingly allows his sales dept. to blatantly lie and misrepresent what he is selling, that tells me a lot about his character and the values (or lack thereof) the company is founded on. If the resort owner will lie about one thing, how can I trust other parts of the company to act honorably in their business dealings?  

I think the atmosphere of a business and the core values of that business come from the top down and it affects how everything else is done in that business.  I choose not to do business with people whom I can't trust and whom I know are lying to me.


----------



## Karen G

mikenk said:


> I would feel totally cheated if I bought something today thinking it as a fair value only to learn I could buy precisely the same thing for pennies on the dollar. That seems perfectly acceptable on this forum - not to me.
> 
> Mike


I don't understand your statement, especially the last line. Didn't you say you once rescinded a purchase at GM and bought resale?


----------



## mikenk

Karen G said:


> I don't understand your statement, especially the last line. Didn't you say you once rescinded a purchase at GM and bought resale?



Actually, I bought my Grand Mayan on resale and later rescinded when potentially upgrading to the GB. At that time and maybe today, the entry level into GM was a traditional TS buy just like any other TS. My resale carried the same benefits as the original; I considered that a ripoff and bought resale.

The upgrades are marketed differently as you get things other than just the facilities to use and you get things only available retail. Whether it makes financial sense is up to the individual, but at least the starting point is fair. Take or leave it, but either way, you won't see the same exact thing on ebay tomorrow. 

I am not sure today what is available for the initial purchase; whether they will negotiate all the higher end models and goodies from the git-go. If not, then there is no way I would buy retail. I would buy resale, use the full credit from the original purchase, and upgrade through the company.

Mike


----------



## mikenk

Karen G said:


> Don't all "sales systems" work the same way?  A company has a product to sell. They hire salesmen to sell the product. Customers either buy the product or they don't.
> 
> If the owner/developer of a timeshare resort knowingly allows his sales dept. to blatantly lie and misrepresent what he is selling, that tells me a lot about his character and the values (or lack thereof) the company is founded on. If the resort owner will lie about one thing, how can I trust other parts of the company to act honorably in their business dealings?
> 
> I think the atmosphere of a business and the core values of that business come from the top down and it affects how everything else is done in that business.  I choose not to do business with people whom I can't trust and whom I know are lying to me.



I agree totally. I believe any timeshare system today selling retail timeshares at a price above what you can buy the same thing on resale today is fundamentally dishonest - whether doing it hard sell or soft sell. They price their units to sell to the unknowledgeable.

GM prices and negotiates their upgrades (not sure on entry level) to give the consumer a fighting chance. Which system is more dishonest - take your pick but I maintain it is not as simple as most people think.

Mike


----------



## rpennisi

*geez Sally,*



sally13 said:


> you are insulted too easy...would not last a minute around here...or is that hair..??
> Insulting???sorry... just not very school teacher like...even us poor city.." utes"..or youths,I mean... know how to bring home the correct cheese...
> 
> Man...I wish I had YOU for biology...on a field trip...the fun would never stop!!



I guess you don't easily recognize sarcasm, which is surprising for a big city "girl" like you.  As for all this "cheese" talk and going on a field trip with you....no thanks, because there is too much of a chance of cutting the cheese with you.


----------



## rpennisi

sally13 said:


> ...And If we did bring home the wrong cheese,we would not rag and cry about how the local  store owner tricks folks into buying the wrong cheese!!
> 
> we "utes",would not tell all our fellow "Utes",to stay away from the tricky cheese salesman...we would eat our thousands of packs of crummy fat-free cheese and feel a little silly,that as educated as we THOUGHT we were,we still were not bright enough to READ what we bought before buying it!!duh!



By the way, you never answered how your first buy from Grupo Mayan went.  Am I to assume that by your cheese analogy, you got something other than what you thought you had bargained for?  How did that first purchase of "cheese" go for you?  Did your short wait to buy it, turn into an all day affair, resulting in it being fat free instead of whole milk?  Just wondering ( kudos to Tropical Lady for going through the process, which could be helpful to others who haven't been through it).
Ron


----------



## DeniseM

ondeadlin said:


> So have at it folks. The more you post, the more likely these threads are to come up on Google and the more people who are warned.



Very good point.  Some of the Grupo Mayan supporters here post well thought out reasons for purchasing from GM, but those who post hysterical, illogical, rants are actually Grupo Mayan's worst enemies.  

I bet the Grupo folks who monitor this thread cringe every time they read that type of over-the-top post.

I guess we should just let them have at it - they are doing their own dirty work.


----------



## pjrose

KarenLK said:


> I have never met pjrose, but we own at the same group of resorts.
> 
> I would bet that we both have identical or nearly identical contracts. No add-ons for free golf, no maintenance once you reach a certain age,  no bonus weeks, and no need to go to an update meeting to upgrade your contract, except to sell you another week.
> 
> We probably both paid the price off the price list; prices vary based on the season and location of the fixed unit. You pay more for a better view and a higher season, but there are no extras. Many of us see the same salesman or saleswoman year after year.
> 
> I can't imagine that Grupo owners have equal contracts. We do.




Yes, you're correct.  However it'd be ok if the contracts were non-identical (if that was an option at our resort group), for example if we had the golf add-on or the AI add-on or the deletion of whatever we didn't want.  Actually there are now some non-identical contracts, with people buying only half of a villa or EOY.

The thing that would NOT be ok is if the salesman verbally said we would get ABC and the contract omitted it.  

And yes - same saleswoman for about 15 years now.


----------



## pjrose

sally13 said:


> you DO NOT GET IT...and I do not care...
> 
> The reading of the contract is ALL that matters!!
> 
> If the Mayan Palace employs a less then honest salesperson,then he or she will eventually be discovered,and terminated..
> 
> 
> 
> As for You wanting to PUNISH all the great folks that built ,maintain and presently work for Grupo....I cry foul!!
> 
> You slander and demean, all of the owners and employees in the company!!!
> 
> A few bad salespeople..and you publicly cry..STAY AWAY!!
> 
> silly..
> 
> Business is full of mistakes and bad behavior..ever check your 401k???
> 
> good luck!!



Goodness - I'm talking about sales practices, yet this post responds by talking about ME  We're here to talk about the subject of the thread, not each other!  

I'm not slandering and demeaning or punishing anyone, nor have I written, said, or "publicly cried" "stay away".  

Everyone agrees that they've got great resorts; what many of us take issue with is the fact that the sales force (sometimes? always? frequently?) promises things that aren't in the contract.  That mismatch hurts their reputation and that of other resorts.  

It'd be simple to fix: "Here's the contract, this is what you are buying, this is the price.  If you'd like to upgrade to ABC or XYZ or opt out of DEF, then this is the price difference.  You have five days to rescind by Mexican law.  Take the contract back with you overnight and read it over, and let's meet again for brunch tomorrow and I'll try to answer any questions.  Meanwhile, go out and enjoy the resort!"   

Of course people should read the contract — AND of course, in my opinion and that of many others, the contract should match the verbal promises.


----------



## pjrose

*Let's go beyond the presentation to contract differences.*

OK, many have noted that the verbal promises don't always match the contract.  Let's say I'm interested, I attended the sales presentation, I liked what the salesperson said, I paid whatever percent they wanted down, signed the contract, and took the contract back to wherever I'm staying to review it overnight.  

I gook copious notes during the presentation, and now I compare my memory, my notes, and the contract.  I notice that the contract doesn't include everything that was described and in some cases something kind of similar is there, but not the same thing.  For example I recall the salesman saying something kind of confusing about turning two weeks - or was it four - into sixteen.  I remember the salesman saying they'd take my present timeshare(s) and sell them for me and they could get $XX,XXX.  I remember something about them renting my week(s) for $Y,YYY if I don't go that year.  None of this is in the contract.

So the next day, I go back, find my salespeople, and ask about those discrepancies.  What do the salespeople say then?

Do they say "oops, sorry, forgot to put that in, here, I'll amend it for you"?

Do they say "No, we said we'd TRY to sell your present timeshare, and we'd TRY to rent it - but we can't promise those amounts".  

Do they say "Sorry, you signed the contract, you paid your money, and that's the way it is"?  

Do they say "Let's renegotiate, here, we'll cross out section 2 but add in sections 10 and 11, and how about we change the price"?  

Do they say "Nope, you can't cancel, you signed a form waiving your rights to cancel"?

Now the the buyer has done what s/he should do and read the contract - what's next?


----------



## mikenk

pjrose said:


> OK, many have noted that the verbal promises don't always match the contract.  Let's say I'm interested, I attended the sales presentation, I liked what the salesperson said, I paid whatever percent they wanted down, signed the contract, and took the contract back to wherever I'm staying to review it overnight.
> 
> I gook copious notes during the presentation, and now I compare my memory, my notes, and the contract.  I notice that the contract doesn't include everything that was described and in some cases something kind of similar is there, but not the same thing.  For example I recall the salesman saying something kind of confusing about turning two weeks - or was it four - into sixteen.  I remember the salesman saying they'd take my present timeshare(s) and sell them for me and they could get $XX,XXX.  I remember something about them renting my week(s) for $Y,YYY if I don't go that year.  None of this is in the contract.
> 
> So the next day, I go back, find my salespeople, and ask about those discrepancies.  What do the salespeople say then?
> 
> Do they say "oops, sorry, forgot to put that in, here, I'll amend it for you"?
> 
> Do they say "No, we said we'd TRY to sell your present timeshare, and we'd TRY to rent it - but we can't promise those amounts".
> 
> Do they say "Sorry, you signed the contract, you paid your money, and that's the way it is"?
> 
> Do they say "Let's renegotiate, here, we'll cross out section 2 but add in sections 10 and 11, and how about we change the price"?
> 
> Do they say "Nope, you can't cancel, you signed a form waiving your rights to cancel"?
> 
> Now the the buyer has done what s/he should do and read the contract - what's next?



Here's what I would do, did, and would do again.
1: I would go to the Contracts people who signed the contract - not sales. I would take all my stuff, a list of discrepancies or misleading language, and officially rescind. The five days for rescinding is quite clear in the contract - had no problem at all.
2: It is up to them if they want to rework the contract to keep me or forget it. 
3: if they rework the contract through addenda, I will accept or reject them one by one; if we finally agree, then we would both sign each addendum, I would tear up the rescinding receipt, we would shake hands, and off I go. There was never any confrontational atmosphere in this process - certainly was in the sales process itself.

Realistically, the laws are clearly in our favor; the contract they sign on day 1 they honor; we have five days to renege if we choose to. After five days, we lose the advantage and hope for mercy. After upgrading to the Grand Bliss, on my first trip back, I complained to the Contracts people on an issue I missed and they gave me another addendum which I really appreciated. Again, these are the company member services people who are the only folks that sign contracts. 

Anyway, that is my experience. Others might have different stories.

mike


----------



## pjrose

mikenk said:


> Here's what I would do, did, and would do again.
> 1: I would go to the Contracts people who signed the contract - not sales. I would take all my stuff, a list of discrepancies or misleading language, and officially rescind. The five days for rescinding is quite clear in the contract - had no problem at all.
> 2: It is up to them if they want to rework the contract to keep me or forget it.
> 3: if they rework the contract through addenda, I will accept or reject them one by one; if we finally agree, then we would both sign each addendum, I would tear up the rescinding receipt, we would shake hands, and off I go.
> 
> Realistically, the laws are clearly in our favor; the contract they sign on day 1 they honor; we have five days to renege if we choose to. After five days, we lose the advantage and hope for mercy. After upgrading to the Grand Bliss, on my first trip back, I complained to the Contracts people on a issue I missed and they gave me another addendum which I really appreciated. Again, these are the company member services people who are the only folks that sign contracts.
> 
> Anyway, that is my experience. Others might have different stories.
> 
> mike



That's the impression I got from your previous posts; you're good at working out the details to fit your wants/needs.  

What about rescinding problems?  Is GM one of the companies that we've often read about not honoring the five-day period, or asking people to waive it, or delaying people so that the period expires?


----------



## mikenk

pjrose said:


> That's the impression I got from your previous posts; you're good at working out the details to fit your wants/needs.
> 
> What about rescinding problems?  Is GM one of the companies that we've often read about not honoring the five-day period, or asking people to waive it, or delaying people so that the period expires?



Never once did I have anyone in sales tell me that although I can imagine some of them might. Regardless, the contract is very clear in that regard and the Contracts people, who are the only ones that matter, do honor the contract. I never had any hint, nor do I expect anyone would, of the Contracts people not honoring that right. 

Actually, if I ever get a hint of Contracts not honoring my contract exactly, then I will switch sides in a "New York minute." I couldn't care less about the sales force attitudes; I care greatly about the Member Services' attitudes and so far, that has been terrific. 

Mike


----------



## pittle

Here is my Grupo Mayan story and it is long!  We have been with Grupo Mayan 12 years and own a total of 6 weeks.  It takes a while to accrue all of these.

In February 1999, we had made an exchange using our Hawaii timeshare.  We arrived at our resort and found it was nothing like the one we had used for the exchange.  It was old, dirty and they had tried to make it better with some kind of room deodorizer that I triggered my allergies and gave me severe headaches.  We asked for a different unit and on Monday, they found us a different unit.  It was no better!  

When we went to the Walmart on Tuesday, someone there snagged us and offered us some tours if we would go to the Mayan Palace.  We did not have anything else to do and hated the place where we were and were looking for things to do to keep us busy outside the resort.  So, we went and were totally blown away with how nice the Mayan Palace was.  We could not afford to buy a 2-bedroom unit at that time, but did buy a 2-bedroom Mazatlan Sea Garden unit that had been “turned in” for an upgrade to a MP.  The cincher was that if we bought that unit, we could move over to the Mayan Palace that day and just pay pro-rated maintenance fees for the remainder of the week.  Our 2-bedroom Sea Garden could be used for a 1-bedroom Mayan Palace, per our contract. We took a taxi back to the dump we were in and had the driver wait while we got our stuff.  One hour later, we were enjoying a wonderful vacation.  There were no promises of rentals or offers to take our Hawaii or Florida timeshares in for credit.  

In November 1999, we went to Puerto Vallarta and had exchanged into Paradise Village and Buganvilias.  When we were at lunch in Bucerias, the restaurant owner snagged us to take a timeshare presentation of the new Mayan Palace in Nuevo.   We took the tour and decided to upgrade to a 2-bedroom Mayan Palace as that was something that we had already discussed after staying at a MP instead of the Sea Garden.  (When at the Acapulco Mayan Palace, we had seen a Sea Garden and had decided that we would prefer the Mayan Palace.)  This time, they did tell us that we could rent our place if we wanted and gave us a list of 3 or 4 rental companies that would do this for us.  The Mayan Palace did not do the rentals.

Now I am going to digress a little – my husband had retired earlier in 1999.  He absolutely loves Puerto Vallarta, so he asked the salesman what you had to do to become a MP salesperson.  The guy said to contact the sales manager, so hubby did and they told him that when he came to PV, he should come to the office to talk to them.  So, we flew to PV on January 1, 2000 and hubby went to talk to the sales manager. They told him to find a place to live and we found an awesome rental unit in Nuevo.  I flew back home because I was still working and hubby started training.  He did ask me to check out the rental thing, so I contacted one of the companies and “gave” them my week to rent.  It cost us $300 to do this.  Of course this did not pan out, but the company did give us an exchange in PV the next year at a different resort, so it was not a total lost cause.  Hubby could not lie to people about the rental deal he was encouraged to promise, but did not work for us, so he decided not to continue working there.  He wanted to be able to know that whatever he told potential buyers was the absolute truth.  We refer to it as his “Excellent Adventure" to find himself.  

Back to my Mayan Palace ownership saga – we decided that we wanted to go more than one week each year and these were generally in February because we lived in Kansas at the time and February was a great time to not be in Kansas (but you cannot use VF weeks in February).  By then, we had discovered eBay.  We bought the exact same thing on eBay for less than 20% of the price we originally paid.  We received the same Vacation Fair week and the maintenance fees were the same.  We then bought a 1-bedroom unit for a very low price.  

Later we heard that if you owned over $50,000 in Mayan Palace “equity” (original contract price), you got priority for unit locations and reservations.  We were close to that amount, so we started watching eBay to pick up one more week. We found a great deal on a Mayan Palace contact that had 2-weeks on it the day after we bought our “last” unit to get to the magic number.  Ok, now we owned 6 MP weeks and had a  LOT of MP “equity”.  We contacted someone that we knew and trusted that had worked with hubby when he was at the NVMP.  This person helped us use the 3 new eBay purchases and we got two, 2-bedroom Grand Mayan units with every bell and whistle that was available with not a lot more cash. No promises of rentals either and we got to read the contract before signing it. We got the official Profile A letter, the no pay unless you go option, if we do pay and do not use, we can accrue our weeks to the next year, plus a few other things that were available at the time.  

We later read about the Senior Certificate option and signed up for that on all of our contracts and then were given the no pay unless you go option on all out contracts.  Once we moved to the Phoenix area, we decided that we did like going to Rocky Point (Puerto Penasco) and bought our last MP contract on eBay for about $2400.  (This is exactly like the one we bought originally.)

We love the resorts, but have decided that we do not want to invest any more money with Grupo Mayan.  The biggest reason is that our grown children are not interested in owning these and if we choose to upgrade, the contracts start anew.  Our plan is not to renew when the 25 year renewal comes up.  We will have had the opportunity to go for “free” using our Senior Certificates for 6-8 years and by the time hubby is 85, we will just rent if we still want to go.  

All of our Mayan Palace contracts allow the Vacation Fair weeks to go with the contract and the transfer fees are equal to one year’s maintenance fee, making them somewhat easier to sell if we wanted to.  Even at $1, someone would get a 1-bedroom unit for less than $550 – not bad.  If we wanted to unload them, we could.  For now, we basically use these weeks when we want to take our family on vacation and need 3 or 4 units at the same time.  We have never had a problem getting our weeks.

Our Grand Mayan contracts would be more difficult because they changed the contracts in that the VF weeks does not transfer and the cost is 5 maintnenace fees.  Bummer!

The resorts are so awesome that they should sell themselves!  I do not condone the sales tactics where the sales force lies.  The only time that we have felt the sales pressure and lied to and thought that they would never let us out of there was  a couple of years ago, but will say we were also deceitful.  We took a tour when a person snagged us at Mega.  We did not tell them that we owned at MP and GM because we wanted to see if what folks fresh off the street go through is true – it is.  It is pretty tedious.  We were there 5 hours before we got our “gift”.  We used the excuse that hubby had just had cancer surgery (true) and we were not making commitments right then.  

Generally, if they convince us to take the update breakfast, we tell them upfront that we are not interested and that hubby had worked the sales line for a short time.  That gets us out right away!

Now you know my story.  We love the Grupo Mayan Resorts, but do not condone the high pressure sales tactics and were not subjected to them when we purchased our original timeshare from them or during the upgrade to the Grand Mayan.


----------



## DeniseM

Wow!  Amazing story!

So, just to confirm what you are saying, during his *Grupo Mayan sales training*, your  husband was *directed to lie to potential buyers*, and that's why he decided not to become a salesmen for them - correct?

Question - at the 25 year mark, could you sign these weeks over to someone else - i.e. give them away?


----------



## pittle

DeniseM said:


> Wow!  Amazing story!
> 
> So, just to confirm what you are saying, during his *Grupo Mayan sales training*, your  husband was *directed to lie to potential buyers*, and that's why he decided not to become a salesmen for them - correct?
> 
> Question - at the 25 year mark, could you sign these weeks over to someone else - i.e. give them away?



He was not told to lie, but was encouraged to push the concept of rentals through the other companies to get back more than you paid in maintenance fees.  This did not work out for us and he did not want to tell others that it was pretty much a guaranteed deal.  He did not feel that in good conscience he could recommend this part of the sales pitch and if someone asked him about it, he did not want to tell them that it worked great when it did not for us.  He could however,  honestly tell people how much we enjoyed staying at the resorts and looked forward to our next vacation at one.  

Other than the rental deal, everything else we were told when we bought was in writing and has been honored.  The rental thing was with a different group of people and you could choose the one you wanted to work with.  There was just too much vagueness there.

Now another thing that I did not put in my long dissertation, was that when we were in Mazatlan in January 2008, we found a small salesman's manual in the dirt when walking through the parking lot one day.  I have it in my MP folder.  It does mention rentals and a rental program.  No where in the book does it say that this program does not work, so technically, the salesman is not lying.  We have just heard from others that it does not.  

Yes, when it is time for the 25 year renewal, we can transfer them to someone else.  At 25 years, however, you have to pay an amount equal to 5 maintenance fees, to renew.  Once we get close to renewal time, we will most likely see if anyone wants a $1 MP or GM.


----------



## rpennisi

Since the companies doing the renting for Mayan units were not Grupo Mayan, I am curious as to why they pushed these independent companies to do the renting.  I have read many posts that said new owners paid bucks upfront, but got zero results from these companies.  Since this was a part of the salesperson's handbook for new sales, what was in it for GM?  I guess it made the purchases look like good investments, telling people they could rent for more than the maintenance charges, but to pay $300 annually upfront for this so-called service?  Did GM get kickbacks for those who paid for the rental companies "service"?  Or, were these companies truly independent from GM?
Ron
PS Just reread the previous post and it was not a part of the handbook, but a part of the sales pitch.


----------



## DeniseM

Telling the buyer that they can rent their timeshare for enough money to cover their payments & maintenance fee is a BIG selling point for GM - we've heard that from many people.  

It's sad really - people who can't afford to buy these timeshares do so on the basis of this promise, thinking it will pay for itself.  Then they find out it's not true, and they are stuck with BIG payments that they can't afford, and wouldn't have taken on, if they'd known the truth.  

I don't believe that even a careful search of the contract would disclose this whopper, because it's outside the contract.  Which debunks the assertion that the buyers are simply dummies that don't read the contract.


----------



## pjrose

DeniseM said:


> Telling the buyer that they can rent their timeshare for enough money to cover their payments & maintenance fee is a BIG selling point for GM - we've heard that from many people.
> 
> It's sad really - people who can't afford to buy these timeshares do so on the basis of this promise, thinking it will pay for itself.  Then they find out it's not true, and they are stuck with BIG payments that they can't afford, and wouldn't have taken on, if they'd known the truth.
> 
> I don't believe that even a careful search of the contract would disclose this whopper, because it's outside the contract.  Which debunks the assertion that the buyers are simply dummies that don't read the contract.



The Royals salespeople have told us that you can rent, and that, depending on location and week, it will often cover the MF - then they have shown us TUG for rent listings.  It's in no way an promise, just info on what is possible.


----------



## mikenk

DeniseM said:


> Wow!  Amazing story!
> 
> So, just to confirm what you are saying, during his *Grupo Mayan sales training*, your  husband was *directed to lie to potential buyers*, and that's why he decided not to become a salesmen for them - correct?
> 
> Question - at the 25 year mark, could you sign these weeks over to someone else - i.e. give them away?



Phyllis (Pittle) is great; She probably knows more about the GM system than anyone. I personally discovered TUG (and Pittle) and the GM resorts at about the same time. She was very patient in answering my many newbie questions and guiding me to understand before I purchased. We met up with them in Cabo last year; she and her Mike have great stories to tell.

Mike


----------



## pittle

rpennisi said:


> Since the companies doing the renting for Mayan units were not Grupo Mayan, I am curious as to why they pushed these independent companies to do the renting.  I have read many posts that said new owners paid bucks upfront, but got zero results from these companies.  Since this was a part of the salesperson's handbook for new sales, what was in it for GM?  I guess it made the purchases look like good investments, telling people they could rent for more than the maintenance charges, but to pay $300 annually upfront for this so-called service?  Did GM get kickbacks for those who paid for the rental companies "service"?  Or, were these companies truly independent from GM?
> Ron
> PS Just reread the previous post and it was not a part of the handbook, but a part of the sales pitch.



Since our original MP purchase in November 1999 and there is now affiliation with Wyndham for rentals,  I think the the MP/GM/GB/GL sales people do tell prospects that they can rent the units for them through RCI, Wyndham, or HSI.  We have learned on TUG and other sites that this is not necessarily true.  When we bought ours, there was a separate sheet with names and phone numbers for 3 companies that would help you rent your unit.  When we discovered that we would have to pay them upfront to do so, we knew something was up, but since hubby wanted us to try the process so he could report to potential clients, we paid upfront.  Like I said before, at least we did get a place to stay the next year.  It was not as nice as the MP, but we really liked it - the unit was huge and the location was great.

It has been 11 years since our "Great Adventure", so I have no real idea what is going on with the promised rentals.  We have only rented our units once to friend who wanted to take a group fo 17 to the Mayan Riviera.  We generally take our family or friends when we go o a MP or GM.

When my friend and I went to Acapulco in January, we took the update tour because hubby was not with us and there was no way I would do anything without him - there was no mention of rentals. My guess is that anyone that already owns and is using their weeks, is not interested in rentals.


PS - mikenk - Thanks for the kind words - you, Betty and your friends were great to visit with too!


----------



## MuranoJo

DeniseM said:


> Telling the buyer that they can rent their timeshare for enough money to cover their payments & maintenance fee is a BIG selling point for GM - we've heard that from many people.
> 
> It's sad really - people who can't afford to buy these timeshares do so on the basis of this promise, thinking it will pay for itself.  Then they find out it's not true, and they are stuck with BIG payments that they can't afford, and wouldn't have taken on, if they'd known the truth.
> 
> I don't believe that even a careful search of the contract would disclose this whopper, because it's outside the contract.  Which debunks the assertion that the buyers are simply dummies that don't read the contract.



An important part of the advice to read the contract before signing is to look for what is and *isn't* in the contract.  If they guaranteed you could make enough in rental to cover payments & mf and it's not in there, then don't sign.

It's typical sales spew that goes far beyond the GM resorts to reassure prospects their costs will be covered.  I don't believe any resort would be bold enough to put future rental guarantees in a contract.


----------



## sally13

*Denise debunks WHOPPER...*

really Denise....This same Whopper as you call it (the renting of your week to pay fees)..has been used in EVERY T.S. sales presentation we have EVER been to!!

this includes Disney,Marriott,Wndham,Blue green,liki tiki,Shell,orange lake,and many mexican resorts,as well as many that I just can not recall..even your own starwood!!!

your attempt at  making Grupo Mayan,your whipping boy,is WEAK at best.. 

I can see where your REAL priority is...and to save the unsuspecting is not all that is on the table (with your whopper)


----------



## DeniseM

sally13 said:


> I can see where your REAL priority is...and to save the unsuspecting is not all that is on the table (with your whopper)



Sally - Please enlighten us (this thread has gotten a little dull):  What is my REAL priority?????



> this includes Disney,Marriott,Wndham,Blue green,liki tiki,Shell,orange lake,and many mexican resorts,as well as many that I just can not recall..even your own starwood!!!



Yes.....but with Starwood it's TRUE!  (I just rented one week on Maui for $3,600 - and have done so for several years in a row.)  

I can rent a Mayan Palace week on II for less than $500 a week.... and an owner will be lucky to rent his timeshare at all.


----------



## mikenk

From my experience, all timeshares use the "whopper" lie as Denise calls it in their TS spiels.

In reality, it is certainly possible to do so at many resorts. With the golf package, I could easily rent my GL for waaay more than my MF if I chose to do so. I choose to use instead.

Mike


----------



## DeniseM

mikenk said:


> From my experience, all timeshares use the "whopper" lie as Denise calls it in their TS spiels.
> 
> In reality, it is certainly possible to do so at many resorts. With the golf package, I could easily rent my GL for waaay more than my MF if I chose to do so. I choose to use instead.
> 
> Mike



Is that Grand Bliss or Mayan Palace? 

I think the OP went to a MP presentation, and a regular Mayan Palace rental is very difficult to get rid of.


----------



## rpennisi

To all my fellow Grupo Mayan owners,
Come on "guys", you know that this has been a big lie told by GM to first time buyers.  Why do you defend it with saying that every ts does it?  Personally, I don't recall this being told to us when we have attended a number of ts presentations in Mexico and the US. Maybe I didn't give them the chance to get that far.
Many GM owners who are posting are those who have upgraded (some several times), and had the experience and savvy to tailor your upgraded contracts to your needs.  That is good.  But the line, "You can turn your weeks in and we'll take $$ off today's purchase price, and you can do this in future years as well, so that we can bring more potential owners such as yourself"...it's just a sales tactic and a lie!!
This has nothing to do with the resorts or their amenities which are enjoyed by thousands every year.  The first time sales tactics are brutal in time spent and mistruths (lies) told.
Grupo Mayan deserves to be roasted for these tactics, as they continue today, regardless of TUG and other networking sites.  They seduce the unsuspecting and exaggerate their worth to make newbie sales.


----------



## mikenk

rpennisi said:


> Grupo Mayan deserves to be roasted for these tactics, as they continue today, regardless of TUG and other networking sites.  They seduce the unsuspecting and exaggerate their worth to make newbie sales.



Ron,
I don't disagree with that regarding GM initial sales. However, I maintain that all retail timeshare sales seduce the unsuspecting and exaggerate their worth to make newbie sales. They have to. They can do it soft sell and that seems to be OK, or they can do it hard sell and that is the worst of evil. To many of us, there seems to be a double standard.

Every timeshare presentation I have been to plays the rental return game to pay for timeshare - including GM. 

Mike


----------



## Karen G

mikenk said:


> Ron,
> I don't disagree with that regarding GM initial sales. However, I maintain that all retail timeshare sales seduce the unsuspecting and exaggerate their worth to make newbie sales. They have to. They can do it soft sell and that seems to be OK, or they can do it hard sell and that is the worst of evil. To many of us, there seems to be a double standard.
> 
> Every timeshare presentation I have been to plays the rental return game to pay for timeshare - including GM.
> 
> Mike


 I disagree. In all the timeshares we've ever purchased--two from developers and eight resales--never was the ability to rent out the weeks a factor in any of the sales.  I really don't see how paying thousands of dollars to buy in initially from the developer and then renting out the week I've paid so much to use and not going there to use it myself would entice me to buy in.

I didn't buy the "everybody else is doing it" argument when my kids tried to get me to let them do something I didn't agree with. And I don't buy it now to justify high pressure, dishonest, and misleading sales presentations.

From what I've heard from so many other people, the GM approach goes beyond the casual mention of "you can rent out your weeks if you don't want to use them." They specify companies by name who will rent out your weeks and put you in touch with them. They emphasize the "great opportunity" to be able to pay for your timeshare purchase by renting out your weeks. They promise to buy back your annual weeks at outrageous prices that are higher than actual rental rates, and then they don't deliver on those promises by hiding behind the "you should have read the contract" excuse.


----------



## easyrider

Karen G said:


> I disagree. In all the timeshares we've ever purchased--two from developers and eight resales--never was the ability to rent out the weeks a factor in any of the sales.  I really don't see how paying thousands of dollars to buy in initially from the developer and then renting out the week I've paid so much to use and not going there to use it myself would entice me to buy in.



Many of the TS pitches we have listened to, you have the ability to rent your week for more than the MF. The only one we bought from the developer was supose to rent for double+ the MF and they would rent it for us if we decided not to go. If you look at the expedia price per night at this resort you would think your going to make money buying the TS. After we decided to buy they had us sign a " no way to cancell" document. We did cancell this one sucessfully with the help of tugers and bought a better one at the same resort for very little on ebay.

The GM pitch included many features but its very hard to keep track unless you write things down because of how many sales people you end up talking to. They really don't like you writing things down at these presentations. The GM pitch at the presentation may be some what truthfull but there is just way too much info to go through to spend that kind of money. This presentation is the very worse one in all of Mexico.


----------



## pjrose

DeniseM said:


> Yes.....but with Starwood it's TRUE!  (I just rented one week on Maui for $3,600 - and have done so for several years in a row.)
> 
> I can rent a Mayan Palace week on II for less than $500 a week.... and an owner will be lucky to rent his timeshare at all.



I usually rented my winter holiday weeks at the Royals for triple the maintenance fees, and summer holiday weeks for double.


----------



## curtbrown

When we bought our first (non-Mayan) timeshare 15 years ago in Cabo, the "rental option" was part of the sales pitch there too.  It's nothing new and it will usually only be presented to first time (unaware?) buyers.  It's not just a Mayan thing and has been part of TS sales pitches for years.  I have never heard at any one of the presentations I've attended that the resort was in any way responsible to rent it for you.  In many cases they would give you a list of 3rd party brokers to handle it for you.  Unfortunately, many of these outfits weren't always above board.  

A few years ago (before the recession) you might have been able to rent your week(s) through them, if you were lucky.  However, since the recession hit and many people were having problems making mortgage payments on their house or even putting food on the table, a lot of the owners of timeshares were either letting them go back to the resort, selling them for next to nothing, or trying to rent it for a song on Craigslist or on sites like this.  There is just way too much inventory available in the resale market at rock bottom prices.  Because of the economy, many of the rental and resale companies went belly up, or were unable to deliver what the TS owner hoped for.  Is that GM's responsibility?

I would hope that prospective buyers would do their homework before the purchase and would know this.  But, I would be a fool if I thought that was the case.  It's too easy to get rolled up in the excitement of the sales experience and let that experience cloud your common sense.  Since GM (or any of the other TS resorts) aren't handling the rental or resale, they have no control over the 3rd party's performance.  If the salesman put a guarantee of a rental or resale into the contract, I would be upset if it didn't pan out.  I don't think that's happening.  I think the rental or resale option that is presented to the buyer is just that, an "option".  If a buyer takes that as a promise to help offset the money they are shelling out, I think they will be disappointed, especially in this economy.

Is the GM sales force (or any resort's sales force) obligated to educate people and explain that the likelihood of renting your time through one of these outfits is pretty slim? I don't think so...  Is it a lie?  I don't know... I'm sure some people were able to rent or resale during better times.  Nowadays, probably not so much.  But would any sales team (GM or otherwise) tell you that the odds are against you?  I don't think so.

Like the others that have detailed their experiences over the years, my experience was very similar.  Our first sales experience with GM sales was pretty high pressure.  We ended up buying into the Grand Mayan because the product looked like it would meet our vacation needs and we weren't interested in renting it out for $$$, so we got what we wanted.  The GM was a new product at that time, the economy was booming and there were no Grand Mayan resales available anywhere.  They offered a product that we liked and we bought it - in spite of the sales force, not because of them.

We stayed in the GM for a few years and were pretty happy with our purchase. We attended a few updates and passed up on upgrading to more time (there were no higher levels at that time).  Then the Grand Bliss and Grand Luxxe levels became available.  They offered golf & spa packages,the  no-use / no-pay option, Senior certificate, etc. for not a lot more money if we used our GM equity and upgraded into the Grand Bliss.  We stayed at that level for a couple years, and then went on another update where we were offered what we felt was a great deal to upgrade to the Grand Luxxe.  All of the upgrade sales were very painless, informative, and no promises were made that weren't delivered in the contract (other than one item that was quickly corrected the next day when it was brought to their attention).  

I agree that the initial experience with Grupo Mayan CAN be pretty intense.  If It was up to me, I would probably change the sales model to show the benefits and amenities that the Mayan properties have to offer and let the resorts sell themselves.  But I probably wouldn't last too long ...  LOL


Curt


----------



## MuranoJo

pjrose said:


> I usually rented my winter holiday weeks at the Royals for triple the maintenance fees, and summer holiday weeks for double.



And I will also chime in and say I've usually rented my winter holiday week at the lowly Mayan Palace for 3x (and once 4x) the m/f.  

Not to mention, if I want to exchange it, my TPU value will rival the upper crust deposits in RCI.


----------



## rpennisi

muranojo said:


> And I will also chime in and say I've usually rented my winter holiday week at the lowly Mayan Palace for 3x (and once 4x) the m/f.
> 
> Not to mention, if I want to exchange it, my TPU value will rival the upper crust deposits in RCI.



Recently a few posts have been written about owners renting their holiday Mexican ts weeks for more than the mf, in some cases for multiples of the fee.  This was probably true in pre-recession times, maybe even now?

However, only a very small percentage of Mexican timeshare owners can use and therefore rent holiday Mexican ts weeks.

Most contracts exclude the use of those weeks.  These are the very few weeks in a year when the resort is 100% booked, mostly by Mexican nationals.

Ron


----------



## pjrose

rpennisi said:


> Recently a few posts have been written about owners renting their holiday Mexican ts weeks for more than the mf, in some cases for multiples of the fee.  This was probably true in pre-recession times, maybe even now?
> 
> However, only a very small percentage of Mexican timeshare owners can use and therefore rent holiday Mexican ts weeks.
> 
> *Most contracts exclude the use of those weeks.*  These are the very few weeks in a year when the resort is 100% booked, mostly by Mexican nationals.
> 
> Ron



Im confused by your statement about excluding use of holiday weeks.  I bought weeks 51 and 52 at the Royals and those are my weeks to use, so how could they exclude my use of them?  I can use them in the same ways I use other weeks - myself, lend, give away, rent, exchange, or sell.


----------



## DeniseM

pjrose - I believe he is saying that many owners own off-season weeks and do not have access to the holiday weeks to rent.  Except for holiday and high season weeks, I don't believe the other weeks are strong rentals.


----------



## pjrose

DeniseM said:


> pjrose - I believe he is saying that many owners own off-season weeks and do not have access to the holiday weeks to rent.  Except for holiday and high season weeks, I don't believe the other weeks are strong rentals.



Makes sense.  Thanks.


----------



## rpennisi

DeniseM said:


> pjrose - I believe he is saying that many owners own off-season weeks and do not have access to the holiday weeks to rent.  Except for holiday and high season weeks, I don't believe the other weeks are strong rentals.


Thanks Denise M...Yes, that is what I meant.  Most GM contracts give you only weeks 1-50 (actually 48 weeks in total), no 51, 

52 or the two weeks sandwiching Easter.  Of course, for more $$ you can get a 

contract with those "super prime" weeks.  Again, those are the weeks that are 

popular with Mexican nationals, when the resorts are booked solid.
Ron


----------



## curtbrown

rpennisi said:


> Thanks Denise M...Yes, that is what I meant.  Most GM contracts give you only weeks 1-50 (actually 48 weeks in total), no 51,
> 
> 52 or the two weeks sandwiching Easter.  Of course, for more $$ you can get a
> 
> contract with those "super prime" weeks.  Again, those are the weeks that are
> 
> popular with Mexican nationals, when the resorts are booked solid.
> Ron



I agree, but it's that way with most timeshare contracts, both in Mexico and in the U.S. (however U.S. contracts don't usually block Easter).  This isn't something that is only a GM policy.  And, as you said, if you pay more $$ you can get those weeks.  Most buyers don't...

Curt


----------



## MuranoJo

rpennisi said:


> Recently a few posts have been written about owners renting their holiday Mexican ts weeks for more than the mf, in some cases for multiples of the fee.  This was probably true in pre-recession times, maybe even now?
> 
> However, only a very small percentage of Mexican timeshare owners can use and therefore rent holiday Mexican ts weeks.
> 
> Most contracts exclude the use of those weeks.  These are the very few weeks in a year when the resort is 100% booked, mostly by Mexican nationals.
> 
> Ron


Ron, I am fully aware of that, and was just echoing what PJRose said.   As Curt has pointed out, this is very common for non-MX timeshares as well.

My main point is that generalizations can also be misleading, whether it's safe to travel in a country, what you can sell or rent for, or how misleading the sales presentations are.  There are always generalizations and exceptions, regardless of the resort or location.

I would not venture so far as to say the resorts are booked mostly by Mexican nationals during holidays.  It depends on the holiday and the location.  This is based on my observations, and what I've read on TUG and various MX travel sites over 10 years.   At any rate, I enjoy vacationing with the nationals too.


----------



## pjrose

I was talking about fixed-week contracts - I bought those specific weeks in specific locations -  and after reading the explanations above I think you mean floating-week ones.


----------



## MuranoJo

PJ,
Not sure if you're referring to what I wrote, but, yes, Grupo weeks are floating.  You have access to weeks within the period you own.  So if you own holiday weeks, you could reserve any of the holiday weeks (or any others as it's 1-52) at any of the Grupo locations, depending on availability.


----------



## rpennisi

muranojo said:


> Ron, I am fully aware of that, and was just echoing what PJRose said.   As Curt has pointed out, this is very common for non-MX timeshares as well.
> 
> My main point is that generalizations can also be misleading, whether it's safe to travel in a country, what you can sell or rent for, or how misleading the sales presentations are.  There are always generalizations and exceptions, regardless of the resort or location.
> 
> I would not venture so far as to say the resorts are booked mostly by Mexican nationals during holidays.  It depends on the holiday and the location.  This is based on my observations, and what I've read on TUG and various MX travel sites over 10 years.   At any rate, I enjoy vacationing with the nationals too.


I know that GM owners would know about the holiday weeks.  My point was 

that non GM owners might get the wrong impression about how much they 

would get for rental weeks, when it is the holiday weeks or spring break 

weeks that get the most rental bucks.
Ron


----------



## MuranoJo

rpennisi said:


> I know that GM owners would know about the holiday weeks.  My point was
> 
> that non GM owners might get the wrong impression about how much they
> 
> would get for rental weeks, when it is the holiday weeks or spring break
> 
> weeks that get the most rental bucks.
> Ron



I understand what you're saying, Ron--that rental of holiday weeks are an exception.  But didn't I reference the fact that my rental weeks were for winter holiday weeks?


----------



## rpennisi

muranojo said:


> ...At any rate, I enjoy vacationing with the nationals too.



As do I.  I hope this wasn't taken as a disparaging remark about Mexican 

nationals.  I was just stating what I have been told at MP presentations and 

updates, and that is that those excluded weeks in most contracts are because

 those weeks are popular (and therefore are more expensive to get in a 

contract) with Mexican nationals.
Ron


----------



## rpennisi

muranojo said:


> Ron, I am fully aware of that, and was just echoing what PJRose said.   As Curt has pointed out, this is very common for non-MX timeshares as well.
> 
> My main point is that generalizations can also be misleading, whether it's safe to travel in a country, what you can sell or rent for, or how misleading the sales presentations are.  There are always generalizations and exceptions, regardless of the resort or location.
> ...



The intention of my post was to inform those who were not Mayan owners (obviously not you, Curt or other Mayan owners) as to what weeks were in most MP contracts and how that worked.  Obviously, PJRose wasn't aware of that, so therefore, probably many others as well.

I thought the main gist of your post was that generalizations can be misleading.
Ron


----------



## curtbrown

Hey all,  I vote we let this thread die a quick death...

The original poster (Kingme) apparently has had their issues resolved to their satisfaction some time ago (once they got in contact directly with Grupo Mayan).

Nobody that is new to this forum will likely read through all seven pages of the back & forth postings.  The only ones who will read it are the current posters, and they (including me) probably won't have their beliefs swayed one way or the other, no matter what anyone says...

I'm afraid we've beaten this one to death...  Just my $0.02

Curt

(I'm outta here...)


----------



## pjrose

We have a smilie for that:
:deadhorse:


----------



## sally13

*The WHOPPER....*

point is ....

Curt said it best...


It is NOT the nicey,nice world ,that Pjrose and Denise and Ron wish it was..

The grupo folks have no need or motive to educate folks on the savy ways of Tug..it is not in their interest as a business..

They provide a superior product at a good price...no need to quibble on the back door, garage sale entry points to grupo properties...

also..I just watched (Fast food nation) highly entertaining!!...not to be confused with (supersize me)...Fastfood nation is a movie about business between our country and Mexico...Many well known stars..(Kris Kristofferson ect.)5 stars (sally rating)for understanding the give and take and cultural gaps we as nations (rassle with)...

If you watch THAT movie and STILL have a problem with the WHO you give your $$$ to..there is not any help ......,I can not begin to help you  understand...end of story..


----------



## DeniseM

Sally - Please tell us what "good price" you paid to Grupo Mayan (total), how much you financed, what the interest rate is, and what your monthly payments are, so we can fully understand the great deal you got.

I'd be glad to disclose any of my timeshare purchases as well.


----------



## curtbrown

Now I see it...

:deadhorse:


----------



## rpennisi

curtbrown said:


> ...  Just my $0.02
> 
> Curt
> 
> (I'm outta here...)



You may be outta here, but Sally's got another $0.02 or more to go.


----------



## sally13

*Denise...*

We paid CASH...as we always do...

As far as actual #'s,lets just say...with one upgrade to the bliss ,for spa and golf,as well as the Extra b-room..toal outlay is in the 20's...

I am sure you are now going to instruct us all on how YOU could get a 2-bedroom grand  bliss for  $1. good luck!!

bottom line...we have enjoyed many weeks in the last ten years and consider the initial ($$$ HIT),well invested funds, that have paid off in many priceless family goodtimes  years ago...your obsesion with $$$,is unwarranted...

it is sort of like the $6000. or so weekly rental on a brand new houseboat ....we traded our  bluegreen week ,and toured Lake Havasu in style!! ...(we only paid $7000. for the whole bluegreen T S purchase to begin with!!

your attempt to frame me as  you wish to imagine me,is just silly....I think you need to try and grab that almost free Luxxe that you have been promoting and try to strike your own bargain!!!go on Denise ..deal with that slick saleperson,and give them a run for their $$$$


also..I am sure the weeks YOU own,the resorts paid YOU to come use their facility...


----------



## Sponge

*Here You GO !!!!!!!!!!*



sally13 said:


> We paid CASH...as we always do...
> 
> As far as actual #'s,lets just say...with one upgrade to the bliss ,for spa and golf,as well as the Extra b-room..toal outlay is in the 20's...
> 
> I am sure you are now going to instruct us all on how YOU could get a 2-bedroom grand  bliss for  $1. good luck!!
> 
> bottom line...we have enjoyed many weeks in the last ten years and consider the initial ($$$ HIT),well invested funds, that have paid off in many priceless family goodtimes  years ago...your obsesion with $$$,is unwarranted...
> 
> it is sort of like the $6000. or so weekly rental on a brand new houseboat ....we traded our  bluegreen week ,and toured Lake Havasu in style!! ...(we only paid $7000. for the whole bluegreen T S purchase to begin with!!
> 
> your attempt to frame me as  you wish to imagine me,is just silly....I think you need to try and grab that almost free Luxxe that you have been promoting and try to strike your own bargain!!!go on Denise ..deal with that slick saleperson,and give them a run for their $$$$
> 
> 
> also..I am sure the weeks YOU own,the resorts paid YOU to come use their facility...



Grand Bliss Nuevo Vallarta MEXICO 2BR Timeshare 4Sale!!

No Reserve! Plus Optional FREE Timeshare! No Gimmicks!
Time left:

6d 12h (Jun 01, 201119:00:36 PDT)

Bid history:  0 bids 

Starting bid:  US $1.00


----------



## DeniseM

Sally - So you paid $20,xxx for your upgrade, but how much did you pay for the ownership(s) you upgraded?  How much are you into Grupo Mayan total?

I'm delighted to hear you aren't financing these purchases - I was concerned that you were, and I hate to give newbies the idea that financing timeshares is a good idea.

And yes, my timeshares DO *"pay me!" * For several years, we have vacationed with no out of pocket cost.  Our rentals pay all our maintenance fees + put some cash in our pocket + give us several weeks of vacation a year for free, so I'm very happy with our situation.

I saw the auction above for a free Grand Bliss unit, but I understand that the Grand Bliss is back in the jungle and doesn't have much of a view?  A great view is a must for me, so I will have to pass - even though it's FREE.

This is the view from our ocean front lanai on Kauai - we will be there for two weeks this summer.


----------



## Karen G

Here's a link to the Grand Bliss auction mentioned above for $1 starting bid and no reserve. So far, there aren't any bids.

There's also an added "bonus" with this item--another totally free timeshare is offered.


----------



## sally13

*Denise...about  $$$*

can you read???
also..the GRAND BLISS is NOT in the jungle..It is right on the beach with all ocean front views...check your facts...

you have a nice view ...hope that Japan fallout did not dust the area 


Sponge...you found a bargain!!...err..I think..#1....You did not consider, to do this ebay deal,you have to have at least $6,000.00 (transfer fees and such)
NOT REALLY FREE DENISE is it...

Thats on top of the winning bid amount!!!..should be interesting..

2nd...You get no golf package with the transfer...(a biggy)

3rd..No spa package..

4th..no senior contract.

5th..no m-fee clause (no pay unless you use) (biggy too!)

6th..no double 2 for 1 week..(the largest biggy of all!!)

and 7th..this is ONLY a ten year contract..not a 25,50,or 100!!

good luck Sponge..


----------



## rpennisi

sally13 said:


> As far as actual #'s,lets just say...with one upgrade to the bliss ,for spa and golf,as well as the Extra b-room..toal outlay is in the 20's......



Once again, for the record Sally, I love the GM facilities.  My beef is with their initial sales tactics and some policies (like arbitrary fences and lack of telling owners their plans, especially when they strongly impact their current owners ie removing MP buildings and tearing down a MP extension built but never occupied).

But my question is:  How is your total outlay in the 20's K for GB?
If a MP went for around 15-17K,
and a GM went for around 30-35K,
how do you get GB for total 20'sK?

Also, I reread your post, and I didn't see where you say you own GB.  Obviously not in Cancun, because it's under construction in the "jungle", so it must be in Nuevo Vallarta, where the GB is not exactly on the beach (as is the remaining remnant of the Mayan Palace), but back from the beach where half the units have beach views.
Ron


----------



## DeniseM

rpennisi said:


> Also, I reread your post, and I didn't see where you say you own GB.  Obviously not in Cancun, because it's under construction in the* "jungle", *so it must be in Nuevo Vallarta, where the *GB is not exactly on the beach (as is the remaining remnant of the Mayan Palace), but back from the beach where half the units have beach views.*Ron



That's what I understood, too.  Guess Sally must own at a different resort.   

I noticed she did NOT disclose her total $$$ "invested" in GM - I'm guessing the number is too high to admit to....


----------



## DeniseM

sally13 said:


> can you read???
> also..the GRAND BLISS is NOT in the jungle..It is right on the beach with all ocean front views...check your facts...



Everyone except you says it has mediocre views....  How sad to pay all that money for an ocean front view, and then not get it!



> You did not consider, to do this ebay deal,you have to have at least $6,000.00 (transfer fees and such)



Really?  Why?  Even if it's true, it is FAR less than buying from the developer.


----------



## curtbrown

DeniseM said:


> Everyone except you says it has mediocre views....  How sad to pay all that money for an ocean front view, and then not get it!



Sorry, Denise, but you're off base here.  Currently, there is only ONE Grand Bliss Resort open and it is in Nuevo Vallarta.  I've stayed in it and I would not call it "mediocre" by any stretch of the imagination.  The front of the building has a commanding view of the ocean and also overlooks the lagoon a foliage directly below.  The back side of the building, which will be primarily for non-owners who trade into the resort overlooks the Jack Niclaus golf course.  NEITHER view is "mediocre".  

Check their website -  http://www.thegrandbliss.com/

This whole thread has degenerated into a back and forth discussion that reminds me of my high school days.  It's ridiculous.  [Deleted] Come on people.


----------



## DeniseM

Curt - I haven't been there, and don't plan to, but I based my question on the post from others who have:



rpennisi said:


> Also, I reread your post, and I didn't see where you say you own GB.  Obviously not in Cancun, because it's under construction in the* "jungle", *so it must be in Nuevo Vallarta, where the *GB is not exactly on the beach (as is the remaining remnant of the Mayan Palace), but back from the beach where half the units have beach views.*Ron



Ok, I went to the link you posted and this is the picture on the main page.  Is this representative of the ocean front views?


----------



## pjrose

DeniseM said:


> Curt - I haven't been there, and don't plan to, but I based my question on the post from others who have:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I went to the link you posted and this is the picture on the main page.  Is this representative of the ocean front views?



Nice looking terrace, and I like the little pool. I'm guessing there's some kind of glass in between the railings?  If so, is it somehow smoked or mirrored so people on the outside can't see you in your little pool?  

Are the buildings on the right also part of the Grand Bliss? 

The view is pretty, though the ocean looks awfully far away.  Is it as much of a walk as it looks, or closer than it seems?

Is that a lagoon on the left?  Any issues with smell or mosquitos?


----------



## DeniseM

pj - click here for a bigger picture - http://www.thegrandbliss.com/gallery.html


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

DeniseM said:


> pj - click here for a bigger picture - http://www.thegrandbliss.com/gallery.html



IIRC - they tore down on one of the Mayan Palace buildings to create the Grand.  I remember staying at Mayan Palace in a building that was right about where that picture was taken.

As far as distance from the water, I think that photo lays it out pretty clearly.  It's not as if there is nothing but beach and ocean in front of you.


----------



## rpennisi

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> IIRC - they tore down on one of the Mayan Palace buildings to create the Grand.  I remember staying at Mayan Palace in a building that was right about where that picture was taken.
> 
> As far as distance from the water, I think that photo lays it out pretty clearly.  It's not as if there is nothing but beach and ocean in front of you.



Steve,
They tore down 2 Mayan Palace buildings that were close to the beach to build the pools for the Grand Luxxe.  The GL is actually, like the remaining Mayan Palace and the Grand Bliss back away from the beach.  The walks to the beach are scenic, through lush planted vegetation, but the paths are winding and the walk is not exactly short.
Ron
PS The picture that DeniseM had the link to is of the Grand Bliss that was built where there used to be a disco and sales building, between the last remaining Mayan Palace building and the Grand Mayan (too many Grands in their names).


----------



## DeniseM

So how can you possibly call that "on the beach" or "ocean front?"  Maybe the RESORT is ocean front, but the Grand Bliss certainly isn't!  In Hawaii, I would be crushed to be that far away from the beach.


----------



## taffy19

sally13 said:


> can you read???
> also..the GRAND BLISS is NOT in the jungle..It is right on the beach with all ocean front views...check your facts...
> 
> you have a nice view ...hope that Japan fallout did not dust the area
> 
> 
> Sponge...you found a bargain!!...err..I think..#1....You did not consider, to do this ebay deal,you have to have at least $6,000.00 (transfer fees and such)
> NOT REALLY FREE DENISE is it...
> 
> Thats on top of the winning bid amount!!!..should be interesting..
> 
> 2nd...You get no golf package with the transfer...(a biggy)
> 
> 3rd..No spa package..
> 
> 4th..no senior contract.
> 
> 5th..no m-fee clause (no pay unless you use) (biggy too!)
> 
> 6th..no double 2 for 1 week..(the largest biggy of all!!)
> 
> and 7th..this is ONLY a ten year contract..not a 25,50,or 100!!
> 
> good luck Sponge..


This is why people are not bidding.    Sally should buy it and her average original sales price will drop a lot but not good if she would have to sell both for one or another reason and that can happen one day.  You never know.

We sold our Grand Velas and the transfer fee was only $100!  The Buganvilias isn't much more either.  How come so high at this resort?  That doesn't help the resale prices.  JMHO.

If the transfer fee is $6,000 doesn't that mean that the original buyer paid $60,000 so the GL should be even more.  That is a lot of money.


----------



## Karen G

iconnections said:


> We sold our Grand Velas and the transfer fee was only $100!  The Buganvilias isn't much more either.  How come so high at this resort?  That doesn't help the resale prices.  JMHO.
> 
> If the transfer fee is $6,000 doesn't that mean that the original buyer paid $60,000 so the GL should be even more.  That is a lot of money.


I've wondered that myself--why make the transfer fee so high that people can't sell their units? What difference would it make to the developer if someone resells their unit--the developer has already gotten the original high sales price and what difference does it make who is paying the MF to use the unit?

Maybe the thought is that, if someone who bought the unit originally falls on hard times and can't afford to vacation anymore, that person might think they have a great deal because they don't have to pay MF if they don't use a week. So they just don't come to the resort anymore and the transfer fee is so high that they can't unload their unit.

The resort can then offer up that unused week as an RCI exchange and get some new blood in as prospects for the sales team to try to get them to buy. Most unsuspecting folks who fall for the high pressure sales approach aren't aware of what they are getting into. They don't find out in time to rescind, so the process starts all over again.

The transfer fees effectively kill the resale market and the selling machine keeps churning along, enticing more victims to part with their money so that the developer can keep building more units and so on and so on.


----------



## california-bighorn

Karen G said:


> I've wondered that myself--why make the transfer fee so high that people can't sell their units? What difference would it make to the developer if someone resells their unit--the developer has already gotten the original high sales price and what difference does it make who is paying the MF to use the unit?
> 
> Maybe the thought is that, if someone who bought the unit originally falls on hard times and can't afford to vacation anymore, that person might think they have a great deal because they don't have to pay MF if they don't use a week. So they just don't come to the resort anymore and the transfer fee is so high that they can't unload their unit.
> 
> The resort can then offer up that unused week as an RCI exchange and get some new blood in as prospects for the sales team to try to get them to buy. Most unsuspecting folks who fall for the high pressure sales approach aren't aware of what they are getting into. They don't find out in time to rescind, so the process starts all over again.
> 
> The transfer fees effectively kill the resale market and the selling machine keeps churning along, enticing more victims to part with their money so that the developer can keep building more units and so on and so on.



 Interesting thought.  Another scheme being utilized by sold out Velas Vallarta is keeping many units vacant with high AI fees to discourage exchanges so Velas can rent the "empty" units for additional revenue for the developer.


----------



## rpennisi

Karen G said:


> I've wondered that myself--why make the transfer fee so high that people can't sell their units? What difference would it make to the developer if someone resells their unit--the developer has already gotten the original high sales price and what difference does it make who is paying the MF to use the unit?
> 
> Maybe the thought is that, if someone who bought the unit originally falls on hard times and can't afford to vacation anymore, that person might think they have a great deal because they don't have to pay MF if they don't use a week. So they just don't come to the resort anymore and the transfer fee is so high that they can't unload their unit.
> 
> The resort can then offer up that unused week as an RCI exchange and get some new blood in as prospects for the sales team to try to get them to buy. Most unsuspecting folks who fall for the high pressure sales approach aren't aware of what they are getting into. They don't find out in time to rescind, so the process starts all over again.
> 
> The transfer fees effectively kill the resale market and the selling machine keeps churning along, enticing more victims to part with their money so that the developer can keep building more units and so on and so on.


Karen G,
I have a different take on the transfer fees.

In the beginning, it was one maintenance fee to GM on resale.
Later on, 10% of the original price went to GM on resale.
Then it became, and I think I got this correct, 4 MF's to GM on resale.

Contracts are renewable by an owner after 25 years for 4 MF's for another 25 years of use.
Therefore, when an owner sells, GM gets an equal amount of $$ in most cases way before the 25 year renewal.  So, it's a revenue stream for them every time there is a resale.  Why get "only" one MF on resale, when they can get 4 MF's, years before renewal, and will still get 4 MF's upon renewal.  *I think they like the resales.* 

And as you wrote, if not, they can rent out, give to RCI, or resell themselves at full price, but that takes additional work for them, whereas resales come to them with no additional work on their part.

In January, we were offered 3 Grand Mayan weeks for our 2 Mayan Palace weeks for "only" an additional 25K.  The Grand Mayans are available because so many have upgraded to Grand Bliss and Grand Luxxe.

*I know many upgrades have their own perks, as has been mentioned here, and that these do not transfer*, but if a $6000 transfer fee will get you an original contract for Grand Bliss, that's a win-win for Grupo Mayan and the buyer....they get an extra 6K, and can charge for any extras that the new buyers want to indulge themselves in, and the new buyer gets a huge discount with their resale purchase.

*Now Sally*, before you get all upset, this is smart business for Grupo Mayan/Vidanta.  They are smart business people to have this kind of model.  I just wish they would get rid of their newbie sales practices and communicate with owners better.
Ron
PS  The above is my take on the model before the new brands, but it may be similar, time will tell.


----------



## MuranoJo

sally13 said:


> As far as actual #'s,lets just say...with one upgrade to the bliss ,for spa and golf,as well as the Extra b-room..toal outlay is in the 20's..



I believe Sally is saying her total outlay includes a previous purchase or purchases and the upgrade cost.



Karen G said:


> Here's a link to the Grand Bliss auction mentioned above for $1 starting bid and no reserve. So far, there aren't any bids.



It's a fairly common strategy that Grupo owners will snatch lowball resales and then use the 'combined original contract value' of all ownerships to upgrade for a steal.  I've never done this, but it's been reported on this board and elsewhere before.  I may be proven wrong with economy and travel scares, but a current MP, GM, or GB owner may grab this for a Luxxe upgrade. 



rpennisi said:


> Also, I reread your post, and I didn't see where you say you own GB.  Obviously not in Cancun, because it's under construction in the "jungle", so it must be in Nuevo Vallarta...
> Ron



When you are a member of Grupo, it doesn't really matter where you own, as you can access all locations:  Puerto Penasco, PV, NV, Cabo, Riviera Maya near Cancun. This is a plus to me, in that you aren't locked into one area.  The new upgraded levels are under develpment in most of the locations, so there is definitely limited availability for a while.  I understand Grupo will find space in the next step down, and have heard of them offering double units.  



Karen G said:


> I've wondered that myself--why make the transfer fee so high that people can't sell their units? What difference would it make to the developer if someone resells their unit--the developer has already gotten the original high sales price and what difference does it make who is paying the MF to use the unit?



Yeah, this is a bummer if you're trying to sell.  But I guess it's kinda like ROFR some of the nicer US t/s use (or used to use).  However, my older contract only charges 1 m/f for a transfer, so it depends on the contract you have.  That would be one of my first questions when buying resale and I'd ask for the original paperwork (which I got on my resale).  If you buy from an eBay PCC, you likely won't get that.


----------



## rpennisi

Muranojo,
I know that when you are a member of Grupo Mayan, it doesn't really matter where you own, as you can access all locations.  That's why I like and own with Grupo Mayan.

However, Sally was writing that she owns Grand Bliss which is on the beach and all units have ocean views.  Not true, only NV is built and only half of the units have ocean views.  I know Curt says that the other half face the golf course, and that is a cool view as well.  It was just that the original statement was false.  Additionally, the "jungle" Grand Bliss will not have a view of the ocean at all.  Of course, this is true of all the Cancun units for SG, MP, GM, GB and probably GL.

Who knows what will happen elsewhere, because *no one knows what other buildings will have views of because, even while under construction let alone pre construction, Grupo Mayan keeps it almost like a state secret as to what is being built and what is planned.*
Ron


----------



## DeniseM

Not just "all ocean views" but "right *on the beach* with all ocean *front *views" which is certainly inaccurate:





> It is right on the beach with all ocean front views



Sally, when you bought at the new property that is under construction, were you told it would have ocean views?  In another post you seemed surprised that there would be no ocean views.


----------



## MuranoJo

rpennisi said:


> Once again, for the record Sally, I love the GM facilities.  My beef is with their initial sales tactics and some policies (like arbitrary fences and lack of telling owners their plans, especially when they strongly impact their current owners ie removing MP buildings and tearing down a MP extension built but never occupied).



One of my concerns, too (besides the obvious sales tactics), is the reduction of MP units, in spite of being assured we'll always have space. So far it hasn't impacted me negatively.  I'm going to try to reserve a unit soon, so will let you know how it goes.


----------



## rpennisi

muranojo said:


> One of my concerns, too (besides the obvious sales tactics), is the reduction of MP units, in spite of being assured we'll always have space. So far it hasn't impacted me negatively.  I'm going to try to reserve a unit soon, so will let you know how it goes.



A good example of this is what is happening in Acapulco.  The Mayan Palace buildings were leveled.  A Mayan Regency complex was built across the road.  Where the torn down MP's were, a new high rise building is being built, but it's impossible to get info as to what the new building will be.  Some say, Grand Bliss, others Mayan Palace, others a combo of the two.  We got a multipage mailing from GM, but no mention of the new building.  I am sure they know what it will be, why not share the information?  
Or, send an email to owners. 
*Hey, "Karen Rose", why not tell us here! Make it a TUG scoop!*


----------



## MuranoJo

rpennisi said:


> However, Sally was writing that she owns Grand Bliss which is on the beach and all units have ocean views.  Not true, only NV is built and only half of the units have ocean views.  I know Curt says that the other half face the golf course, and that is a cool view as well.  It was just that the original statement was false.  Additionally, the "jungle" Grand Bliss will not have a view of the ocean at all.  Of course, this is true of all the Cancun units for SG, MP, GM, GB and probably GL.
> 
> Who knows what will happen elsewhere, because *no one knows what other buildings will have views of because, even while under construction let alone pre construction, Grupo Mayan keeps it almost like a state secret as to what is being built and what is planned.*
> Ron



Ron, I agree.  I guess I responded as I did because you asked her what location she owned...

Yes, Denise, definitely not oceanfront, and ocean view for some.


----------



## pittle

Ron - The pre-2001 contracts have 25 year fees that are 5MF, but 1 MF for transfer.  2001 to 2005 contracts have the 10% transfer fees and the 5 MF renewal fees. The transfer fees and 25 year renewal fees for the contracts written between January 2006 and late 2009'ish are 5MF. Also with the contracts written after Jan 2006, you lose the VF weeks when you do resales, but not on the ones written before Jan 2006.  

All but one of our Mayan Palace contracts has the 1MF transfer and 5MF renewals.  We have one with the 10% transfer fees (but it keeps the VF week), and then our 2-Grand Mayan weeks contract has the 5MF for transfer or renewal that looses the VF week if we transfer.  That one would cost someone other than our grown children a bunch of $$$ to take over since it has the two 2-bedroom weeks on it.


----------



## sally13

*A few thoughts...*

as a (so called uneducated,troublemaker) (as some have private emailed me)...

I have a hard time continuing with this thread...but all should not be punished for the dirty deeds of one....


This is how I remember it going down...
#1..We bought a 1 bed mayan palace.2 for 1(2 total weeks a year).for $28 k..they gave us $10k credit for an old blue green T.S.that we used for decades,and were done with(blue green was uping fees and cutting back unit selection)...we paid about $6,500.for that trade-in initially(this was a godsend,and they DID take care of all the details of transfer,Soooo.. they DO ,do this in good faith...set That one to rest..

In Riviera Maya..we upgraded for ($9-$10k),to a 2 bedroom Grand Bliss,with all the goodies...(as MIKE would say) 

The snafu came about as our contract was executed in R.Maya but deeded in N.Vallarta.....I was promised an Ocean view unit!! on the beach...

Now this is where I did not pay close enough attention to what I put MY SIGNATURE on...shame on me...I wanted to believe that the R.Maya location was to be built on the beach...The salesman slickly presented it this way...that is my ONLY beef with Grupo...

If they build the grand Bliss in the jungle in R.Maya...I will be upset...and that is what I am hearing..( R maya is where we like to go..for the water activities )

As far as the Grand Bliss in N Vallarta,..It IS ocean front ON the beach...There are ponds,botanical foliage lined paths and swimming pools in front of the Grand Bliss before the beach..but you have to remember,THIS IS A HUGE RESORT!!....Being a high rise. all units facing the  main ocean have a commanding big blue view....but the building itself,along with the Luxxe,is built on a pennisula point,the back side view is a commanding one of ocean (wrap around bay),majestic mountains, and golf course..not too shabby!!!

If THAT is not to your liking Denise...to bad

As far as the transfer fees..Yes they were implemented to KILL the resale market...and THIS is good..You buy a timeshare as an investment in YOUR vacation...NOT as something to sell...this is where the (no fees unless you use clause is genius)

To have folks bragging about scooping cheap resales,ruins a market.You see this in everything from homes sales,to T.S,to collectables...This is a simple fact...The foreclosure mess in realestate has reeked undue hardship on this economy...is this GOOD for the market,and all the folks that derive a living from the many varied aspects of realestate???NO!! everyone suffers,directly or indirectly down the line....wait and see if you do not think so..

There is a foreclosure company in florida called VULTURE ENTERPRISE,or something like that...they come in offering 10% of  the land and build value for realestate...outcome???...THIS becomes the NEW going value for the area...Great ...now someone with something that really does have resale value,gets pennies on the dollar for something that the banks have extracted a lifes worth of blood $$$  out of the buyer and their family......

Pehaps some tuggers could start VULTURE TIMESHARE..until all timeshare fall into disrepair and waste as percieved value plummets into the gutter....kill the market with cheap reasales...kill the golden goose!...its all connected......

my 2 cents...


----------



## rpennisi

pittle said:


> Ron - The pre-2001 contracts have 25 year fees that are 5MF, but 1 MF for transfer.  2001 to 2005 contracts have the 10% transfer fees and the 5 MF renewal fees. The transfer fees and 25 year renewal fees for the contracts written between January 2006 and late 2009'ish are 5MF. Also with the contracts written after Jan 2006, you lose the VF weeks when you do resales, but not on the ones written before Jan 2006.
> 
> All but one of our Mayan Palace contracts has the 1MF transfer and 5MF renewals.  We have one with the 10% transfer fees (but it keeps the VF week), and then our 2-Grand Mayan weeks contract has the 5MF for transfer or renewal that looses the VF week if we transfer.  That one would cost someone other than our grown children a bunch of $$$ to take over since it has the two 2-bedroom weeks on it.



Thanks Phyllis,
My numbers were off.  You have an accurate and useful chronology of the changes through the years.  With that, *I still think they like resales for the easy money it brings in. * For my earlier post, the 4MF's need to be changed to 5.

My 2 bedroom MP has a 1 MF transfer.  My 1 bedroom MP has a 10% transfer.  Both have the VF weeks.  I bought on resale and paid the transfer fees.  The transfer prices definitely reflected the changes in the final bid prices.
For the 2 bedroom, GM got 1 MF from me...$630.
For the 1 bedroom, GM got 10% from me...$1178.

Therefore, GM got almost double for the transfer of a 1 bedroom MP than for a 2 bedroom MP....good deal for them, but not for the seller, because the final bid price went from $1683 for the 2 bedroom to $103 for the one bedroom.
GM benefited with the resales, sellers didn't.

After the recession hit, $1 sales still carried the above transfer fees going to GM, so *for that part* of their business, the recession was good for them....lots of people, in despair, selling, but the transfer fees kept rolling in.

Phyllis, I will keep a copy of your MP chronology post for future reference...thanks again.
Ron
PS  Sally, yet with all these transfers and sales and the recession and fear of cartels, etc., the GM still flourishes and the building and upkeep still goes on, why all the angst?  This has nothing to do with Florida and what is happening there.  As far as I know, Grupo Mayan/Vidanta is still debt free and at least in January of this year, was making record sales.


----------



## DeniseM

sally13 said:


> As far as the Grand Bliss in N Vallarta,..It IS ocean front ON the beach...There are ponds,botanical foliage lined paths and swimming pools in front of the Grand Bliss before the beach..but you have to remember,THIS IS A HUGE RESORT!!....Being a high rise. all units facing the  main ocean have a commanding big blue view....but the building itself,along with the Luxxe,is built on a pennisula point,the back side view is a commanding one of ocean (wrap around bay),majestic mountains, and golf course..not too shabby!!!
> 
> If THAT is not to your liking Denise...to bad



You're right - it isn't to my liking.  We we stay at the ocean, we want to be right on the ocean.  I would be disappointed to be in a building that's so far from the beach, regardless of what's between me and the beach.


----------



## sally13

*Ron...*

Do you have kids??are you concerned for their future??

Yes Florida and every state for that matter have everything to do with the above thoughts...

The Market of T.S.,or realestate,or Job,is of concern for my childeren...The fact is T.S. resale is cheap and plentifull,because of a broken market..you could say ,...but wait..it is only a cycle,and will correct sooner or later...


WRONG...the dynamics that crashed these markets are severe and very long cycled(this time)..what happens when the job,realestate,T.S. market does not come back???...crap for us all,in one form or another...ruin a economic machine and the host economy and its people lead a lower standard of living...

Hurry for me!! I got a cheap resale!!...but at WHAT cost??? to your kids???

and their future???..Is it not better to have a healthy,working ,system that actually has the $$$ to afford to buy retail???

Think of the above realestate example...

I do not believe one should think about getting $$$ when they are done (in life) using their timeshare...you benefit as you use it...but the markets ARE similar in a business form...and a glut of anything will bring down the price and more importantly the quality of services and upkeep...this is WHY we chose GRUPO...but as I said before the way the market is percieved effects the entire catagory...

#1 problem...Outsourcing

#2 problem..unscroupulous banks

#3 problem ...elimination of the middle class

thus the angst...I am done..you asked why the angst???

thus the angst..


----------



## sally13

*Denise..*

we like choices...to each their own...

also a little walk is good for the heart..


----------



## rpennisi

sally13 said:


> ...As far as the Grand Bliss in N Vallarta,..It IS ocean front ON the beach...There are ponds,botanical foliage lined paths and swimming pools in front of the Grand Bliss before the beach..but you have to remember,THIS IS A HUGE RESORT!!....Being a high rise. all units facing the  main ocean have a commanding big blue view....but the building itself,along with the Luxxe,is built on a pennisula point,the back side view is a commanding one of ocean (wrap around bay),majestic mountains, and golf course..not too shabby!!!



Sally,
I never saw the ocean from the backside  of any of the buildings in the complex.  A golf course and mountains, yes, as to a  "back side view is a commanding one of the ocean...", no.
Ron


----------



## rpennisi

sally13 said:


> Do you have kids??are you concerned for their future??
> 
> Yes Florida and every state for that matter have everything to do with the above thoughts...
> 
> The Market of T.S.,or realestate,or Job,is of concern for my childeren...The fact is T.S. resale is cheap and plentifull,because of a broken market..you could say ,...but wait..it is only a cycle,and will correct sooner or later...
> 
> 
> WRONG...the dynamics that crashed these markets are severe and very long cycled(this time)..what happens when the job,realestate,T.S. market does not come back???...crap for us all,in one form or another...ruin a economic machine and the host economy and its people lead a lower standard of living...
> 
> Hurry for me!! I got a cheap resale!!...but at WHAT cost??? to your kids???
> 
> and their future???..Is it not better to have a healthy,working ,system that actually has the $$$ to afford to buy retail???
> 
> Think of the above realestate example...
> 
> I do not believe one should think about getting $$$ when they are done (in life) using their timeshare...you benefit as you use it...but the markets ARE similar in a business form...and a glut of anything will bring down the price and more importantly the quality of services and upkeep...this is WHY we chose GRUPO...but as I said before the way the market is percieved effects the entire catagory...
> 
> #1 problem...Outsourcing
> 
> #2 problem..unscroupulous banks
> 
> #3 problem ...elimination of the middle class
> 
> thus the angst...I am done..you asked why the angst???
> 
> thus the angst..


Sally, 
Yes I have kids.  Yes I care about their future.  We can't get political here, but I say, I hope what happened in NY26 this week sweeps the country.
Ron


----------



## sally13

*Ron..*

Amen to that....

also..what floor of the Grand Bliss were you on??


----------



## kenie

I don't know where they are putting the Grand Bliss in Riviera Maya, but none of the Grand Luxxe buildings have a view of the ocean. We had a great time there, but views of jungle only.
Actually, if the Bliss on ebay came with the all the origional benefits, it would be a good deal. But so would the right Royal property at the right resale price.


----------



## rpennisi

The Grand Bliss in Riviera Maya is being build south (toward Playa del Carmen) of the Grand Mayan Jungle buildings, 8-13.  Between the Grand Bliss and the ocean is an older community of homes.  Problem is that the models right on the beach have fantastic views of the ocean, but you *don't get those views anywhere in Riviera Maya with any of the units sold.*


----------



## mikenk

curtbrown said:


> Sorry, Denise, but you're off base here.  Currently, there is only ONE Grand Bliss Resort open and it is in Nuevo Vallarta.  I've stayed in it and I would not call it "mediocre" by any stretch of the imagination.  The front of the building has a commanding view of the ocean and also overlooks the lagoon a foliage directly below.  The back side of the building, which will be primarily for non-owners who trade into the resort overlooks the Jack Niclaus golf course.  NEITHER view is "mediocre".
> 
> Check their website -  http://www.thegrandbliss.com/
> 
> This whole thread has degenerated into a back and forth discussion that reminds me of my high school days.  It's ridiculous.  [Deleted] Come on people.



After being across the pond for a week, it was interesting to read through the last week of this thread. The post quoted above and particularly the last sentence seem to be the best summary. Anyway, here are my 2 cents on various of the topics.

*On the Grand Bliss and views,*
As one of the few posting that has actually seen the views from the Grand Bliss, the view from ocean side is spectacular and back side will be when the grounds are finished. The ocean side overlooks the manicured lagoons and the ocean. The backside overlooks the river into Puerto Vallarta with the mountains in the background. IMHO, the ocean view is superior to the one that Denise posted to showcase her resort view, as will the backside in a year or so. I did take pictures from both sides - just haven't taken the time to learn and post.

It is true that you have to walk through the manicured walkways to get to the beach; it is also true that the walk to the lazy river and the pool complex is very short which is much more important to us. 

*On high Transfer fees*
The Grand Mayan resort system is a very successful business as opposed to most timeshare resorts. They didn't do that by being stupid. As an owner, I like that they are successful as we get new resorts, new golf courses, and so on; we also don't get dated and 'needing to be refurbished' resorts. 

To be successful and expand, a TS must sell retail. To do so consistently, they have to be able to sell products that give people value and that they can't buy elsewhere for pennies on the dollar. Grupo Vidanta does that by adding perks that don't transfer and a high transfer fee on a brokered sale. In return, they give very liberal transfer rules for private transactions. IMHO, this is smart and fair. If I owned a resort, I would do exactly the same thing. As a contract owner, I like that people can't buy what I own on the open market and I like that people who exchange in don't get what I get.

Mike


----------



## rpennisi

When in Nuevo Vallarta in January of this year, the models for the GB and GL were still on the beach in front of the vegetation, lagoon, and Grand Bliss building.

 Construction of new models was proceeding in the GB building, with sales to be moved there.

The models were to be torn down and the GB's pools to be built where the models were, between the lagoon and the beach.

We plan to go to NV next January, and was wondering if the models are now gone and the move to the Grand Bliss completed?

I think this would be a more honest approach to sales, than models on the beach right in front of the ocean, that would give a more realistic view of the beach's distance, golf course, mountains, etc to prospective owners.

The model building in Riviera Maya gives a totally unreal (though beautiful) view of the ocean to prospective buyers.

While there, I know and heard prospective buyers in Riviera Maya being misled as to location of Grand  Bliss building location and views.  

I know several posters on TUG were dismayed to read that the construction of Grand Bliss, started in January, was alongside the Jungle Grand Mayan buildings with no views other than the jungle.  

Others staying at the Grand Luxxe, stated they were beautiful, they had a great time, but only had views of the jungle vegetation.

*If view is important to some, then the newer approach in Nuevo Vallarta will be a more honest and representative one than the less than honest approach in Riviera Maya.*

Since so many are tired of this thread, but putting in their $.02 cents anyway, then that's mine, and I am not tired of the thread.  In fact, I enjoy the back and forth which provides quite a bit of information.

BTW, I have a totally different memory of how it was in High School.  Too many physical bullies back then.  I know words can hurt as well, but I feel this thread has been most informative.  Looking at the number of responses and hits shows that to be the case.  To me, it doesn't matter that the OP is long gone.

I am still waiting for a response by "Karen Rose".  I have noticed that since there have been questions as to "her" identity, "she" has gone missing.  Maybe this will bring "her" back (?).
Ron


----------



## DeniseM

mikenk said:


> IMHO, the ocean view is superior to the one that Denise posted to showcase her resort view, as will the backside in a year or so.



The view is very  nice, but the pictures make it clear that it is not an ocean front building (as described by at least 2 people in this thread) - it is set well back from the beach, and that is the point I was trying to make.  My preference would have been to put the lagoon and landscaping behind the building and move the building up as close to the ocean as possible.  YMMV


----------



## jlf58

Mike,

So they are smart ? not really.... They sell because thier salesman are taught to lie, its that simple. I have been to 100's of timeshares and a few dozen presantations when I was young and there is no doubt MEXICO and this resort ranks high on this list, is the must underhanded location in the timeshare industry. It all starts with the first sale. Please don't sugar coat it. They sell the volume they do because they are unethical. PERIOD **** 

I know, nice resort, read the contract, other timeshares do the same thing... blah blah blah... bottom line is this company is as bad as any timeshare company in the world when it comes to LYING to get the sale !!! 




mikenk said:


> The Grand Mayan resort system is a very successful business as opposed to most timeshare resorts. They didn't do that by being stupid. As an owner, I like that they are successful as we get new resorts, new golf courses, and so on; we also don't get dated and 'needing to be refurbished' resorts.
> Mike


----------



## mikenk

DeniseM said:


> The view is very  nice, but the pictures make it clear that it is not an ocean front building (as described by at least 2 people in this thread) - it is set well back from the beach, and that is the point I was trying to make.  My preference would have been to put the lagoon and landscaping behind the building and move the building up as close to the ocean as possible.  YMMV



Actually you haven't seen the view.

I define oceanfront as the property bordering the ocean. The Grand Bliss property borders the ocean as there are no buildings between it and the ocean, so it is oceanfront. Some TS's can put buildings directly on the sand; some can put some grass and a little landscape between the sand and the ocean, some can landscape a lagoon area between the ocean. Your preference is obviously putting the building on the sand; I would find that view boring as opposed to a uniquely landscaped lagoon area integrated into the beach. To each their preferences.

Mike


----------



## mikenk

Fletch said:


> Mike,
> 
> So they are smart ? not really.... They sell because thier salesman are taught to lie, its that simple. I have been to 100's of timeshares and a few dozen presantations when I was young and there is no doubt MEXICO and this resort ranks high on this list, is the must underhanded location in the timeshare industry. It all starts with the first sale. Please don't sugar coat it. They sell the volume they do because they are unethical. PERIOD ****
> 
> I know, nice resort, read the contract, other timeshares do the same thing... blah blah blah... bottom line is this company is as bad as any timeshare company in the world when it comes to LYING to get the sale !!!



Sheeze, What in the world does being smart have to do with timeshare sales tactics? That is about ethics. Being smart has to do with business strategy and effectiveness. My guess is they are the most profitable resort chain in Mexico; certainly, they are putting more investment into property improvements than anyone. That is smart. I am sure they are well aware and monitoring the impact of their sales tactics.

Ok, how about ethics? Yes, their timeshares salesmen lie and are certainly more aggressively than most. That horse has been beaten to death. However, every timeshare company selling retail units at a cost when the exact same thing can be had for pennies on the dollar is also totally unethical. For some reason. Tug members just turn a blind eye to that fact.

And although the GM salesmen are indeed unethical in their sales tactics; GM Member Services is extremely ethical in administering the contract which is much more important to an owner. In addition, GM management is also changing the rules so that their retail contracts can be are judged by the value to the individual customer and not on the costs that people in this sick industry are willing to dump their units. That is also smart and much fairer.

Mike


----------



## DeniseM

mikenk said:


> Your preference is obviously putting the building on the sand; I would find that view boring as opposed to a uniquely landscaped lagoon area integrated into the beach. To each their preferences.



Gotcha - yes, you are correct.  When I'm at the ocean, I want to be right on the ocean with nothing between me and the water except the beach.  I love looking at the ocean and listening to the waves!


----------



## pittle

DeniseM said:


> The view is very  nice, but the pictures make it clear that it is not an ocean front building (as described by at least 2 people in this thread) - it is set well back from the beach, and that is the point I was trying to make.  My preference would have been to put the lagoon and landscaping behind the building and move the building up as close to the ocean as possible.  YMMV



One of the things we like best about Grupo Mayan Resorts is that the public areas are the prime ones - no building right on the beach - just pools and beach.     Generally, the units are away from the beach and pool and the prime spaces are available to all owners.  We own at more than one level, but still get to use the pools, restaurants, and beach palapas.  These are awesome.


----------



## curtbrown

One thing to remember is that after the two Cat. 4 hurricanes (Emily & Wilma) that slammed into that area in 2005, and almost wiped Riviera Maya off the map, building codes changed down there.  New buildings are now low rise and the buildings are now generally located back from the beach for safety reasons.  I remember the damage that those two storms did to the the MP and GM in Riviera Maya that year.  The Grand Mayan in Cabo was just starting construction and after the hurricanes hit, Grupo Mayan shut down all construction in Cabo to send the crews the RM to rebuild the resort ASAP.  Is it any wonder they won't build right on the water down there anymore?

This low rise type of construction is actually modeled after the building codes that went into effect in Kauai after that island was nearly destroyed by hurricanes.  Sometimes a view isn't everything...  

Curt


----------



## rpennisi

curtbrown said:


> One thing to remember is that after the two Cat. 4 hurricanes (Emily & Wilma) that slammed into that area in 2005, and almost wiped Riviera Maya off the map, building codes changed down there.  New buildings are now low rise and the buildings are now generally located back from the beach for safety reasons.  I remember the damage that those two storms did to the the MP and GM in Riviera Maya that year.  The Grand Mayan in Cabo was just starting construction and after the hurricanes hit, Grupo Mayan shut down all construction in Cabo to send the crews the RM to rebuild the resort ASAP.  Is it any wonder they won't build right on the water down there anymore?
> 
> This low rise type of construction is actually modeled after the building codes that went into effect in Kauai after that island was nearly destroyed by hurricanes.  Sometimes a view isn't everything...
> 
> Curt



When we first went to Riviera Maya in 2003, the Mayan Palace was already built perpendicular to the beach, and the Grand Mayan was being built parallel to the Mayan Palace, also perpendicular to the beach.  Both were only 3 stories high.
While I don't deny that hurricanes have an effect on building codes, the building at the Riviera complex was already well underway 2 plus years before the hurricanes of 2005.
These hurricanes did not cause building away from the ocean since they were already built or under construction.
Ron


----------



## MuranoJo

Another reason Grupo is smart.  There's history before '05 I'm sure they considered.

I also love a resort where I can look directly down on the beach or walk out the unit directly to the beach, but in some locations, it just isn't a good idea.


----------



## curtbrown

rpennisi said:


> When we first went to Riviera Maya in 2003, the Mayan Palace was already built perpendicular to the beach, and the Grand Mayan was being built parallel to the Mayan Palace, also perpendicular to the beach.  Both were only 3 stories high.
> While I don't deny that hurricanes have an effect on building codes, the building at the Riviera complex was already well underway 2 plus years before the hurricanes of 2005.
> These hurricanes did not cause building away from the ocean since they were already built or under construction.
> Ron



I'm sure you're correct Ron, and I'm probably wrong with my timeline as to when the building practices went into effect.  I do know the GM resorts suffered a lot of damage from those '05 storms as it was. But the reason for building low-rise and back off the beach, IS because of a real hurricane threat in that area.  I was trying to make the point that taller units located nearer the shore are much more susceptible to major structural damage.  Those two hurricanes weren't the first ones to slam into that coastline (Cat 5 Gilbert in '88) and I'm sure they won't be the last. 

That's why we won't ever see the same style of building in RM that we see in NV.  I don't think ANY developer would move the resort in from the beach unless there was a very good reason.  

Curt


----------



## mikenk

pittle said:


> One of the things we like best about Grupo Mayan Resorts is that the public areas are the prime ones - no building right on the beach - just pools and beach.     Generally, the units are away from the beach and pool and the prime spaces are available to all owners.  We own at more than one level, but still get to use the pools, restaurants, and beach palapas.  These are awesome.



I agree. The Grand Mayan resorts are designed as full service resorts for people who want complete resort amenities. It is really not designed for people who want secluded resorts for laying on the beach. 

They have integrated water parks, golf courses, the ocean, restaurants, into a complete complex. As a part of this is the most elaborate, well maintained, landscaped garden environment I have ever experienced. We love walking in beautiful gardens (and viewing them) just as much as walking the beach. Having both is a huge plus for us. 

What amazes me on so many of these Mayan threads is why so many people, many who have never even been to a GM resort, seem to want to convince me that their resort is better than mine, their location is better, and what they want in a vacation is what I should want. Personally, I wouldn't own at any of the timeshares that are the darlings of TUG but I see no point in challenging their decisions - although I must admit it might be fun to do so.

Mike


----------



## Karen G

mikenk said:


> What amazes me on so many of these Mayan threads is why so many people, many who have never even been to a GM resort, seem to want to convince me that their resort is better than mine, their location is better, and what they want in a vacation is what I should want. Personally, I wouldn't own at any of the timeshares that are the darlings of TUG but I see no point in challenging their decisions - although I must admit it might be fun to do so.
> 
> Mike


 Mike, I don't perceive that about the Grupo threads at all. I think the recurrent theme of all the lengthy Grupo threads on TUG is the high pressure, often misleading sales presentations that the majority of people who've been through one have experienced.  In every thread that I can remember the point is always made that the resorts are beautiful and offer a great vacation.  Take a look at the TUG reviews and ratings to see what the "darlings" of TUG are, based on all the ratings people have given who have stayed there. GM resorts are right up there in 9+ ratings with all the others.

When anyone criticizes the sales force and their practices, he/she is not criticizing you or anyone else who owns at GM personally for your decision to buy there. You obviously love the place and that's great that you've found a timeshare that works so well for you.


----------



## DeniseM

I'm not trying to convince anyone that my resort is better than there's.  I don't think that's possible, because so much of that is personal preference.  Besides - I sure don't want to compete with everyone for my favorite!

My point is that some people have posted that the Grand Bliss is ocean front, probably because that's how GM describes it, but in reality - the existing GB is not OF, and the ones under construction apparently won't even have ocean views.  

However, GB continues to use "ocean front/view" as a selling point.  In fact one of the most adamant supporters of GM, admits that she got burnt by GM  sales on this very point on her most recent purchase.  In my opinion, a blatant lie like that is clearly fraud, and not defensible. YMMV


----------



## rpennisi

mikenk said:


> ...What amazes me on so many of these Mayan threads is why so many people, many who have never even been to a GM resort, seem to want to convince me that their resort is better than mine, their location is better, and what they want in a vacation is what I should want. Personally, I wouldn't own at any of the timeshares that are the darlings of TUG but I see no point in challenging their decisions - although I must admit it might be fun to do so.
> 
> Mike


Mike,
Since you were "across the pond", you might have missed this.  The whole discussion of _right on the beach_ or _beach front_ started with an erroneous statement that the Grand Bliss (Nuevo Vallarta) had *all* their units right on the beach with beach views for all the units.  Simply put, not true.

Then, started the justifications of well the other side not facing the beach is pretty good, and well there is a lagoon and paths with plantings in front of the GB and the beach, but that is a good thing, not to be on the beach.  It has been interesting.

As far as the Riviera Maya complex goes, if you are Mayan Palace buildings 1-9 and Grand Mayan buildings 1-7, you are close enough to the pools and beach to be satisfied.  But if you are in the outer Mayan Palace buildings, 10-21 or Grand Mayan buildings, 8-13 it's a hike or a wait for shuttles to go back and forth to the beach and pools.  

We travel (the last few years) to Mx in the winter, so it's not so hot and humid...but the summertime, that's another story.  We used to travel to Mx in the summer, and it can be brutal getting around the large Mayan complexes.

The building of the Grand Bliss in RM in the Jungle will make it a long trip to the beach.  I don't think many Grand Bliss owners signed up for that when they bought.  My guess is they thought that they would _be on the beach._
Ron
PS  I was writing this post before seeing DeniseM's post # 217.  But, she is right on with her post, even though, unlike me, she has not been to the discussed resorts.


----------



## DeniseM

rpennisi said:


> PS  I was writing this post before seeing DeniseM's post # 217.  But, she is right on with her post, even though, unlike me, she has not been to the discussed resorts.



Absolutely true, but I had previously read on TUG that the GB wasn't ocean front and the one under construction doesn't even have ocean views.  So before I responded in this thread, I went online and looked at many pictures of the view and the layout of the resort to confirm the facts.  No - I haven't been to the resort, but the pictures and maps speak for themselves.

If GM owners are happy with their choices - more power to them.  BUT we have many newbies that read these threads when they are trying to decide if they will buy from GM or not, and my mission is to be sure that the FACTS about this resort are posted on TUG and not just recycled sales talk from GM.  

If even experienced owners are being scammed by GM, what chance does a newbie have?


----------



## curtbrown

DeniseM said:


> I saw the auction above for a free Grand Bliss unit, but I understand that the Grand Bliss is back in the jungle and doesn't have much of a view?  A great view is a must for me, so I will have to pass - even though it's FREE.
> 
> This is the view from our ocean front lanai on Kauai - we will be there for two weeks this summer.



Denise,
I have to agree, that IS a wonderful view.  But is that representative of the majority of the views at the Kauai Beach Villas?  I looked at the photos of the resort on Tripadvisor, and it appeared most of the views were garden or pool views.  Is that view something you had to pay extra for?  Or do they put you in whatever unit they want to when you check in?

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Re...ws-Kauai_Beach_Villas-Lihue_Kauai_Hawaii.html

I'm also glad that you have a wonderful view at the Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas.  But you had to pay quite a bit more than the other owners that purchased the Ocean and Garden view units there too, didn't you?  I hope you're not suggesting that all of the units there are Ocean Front.

I also looked back over the past posts and I only see where one person said that the Grand Bliss had ocean front views.  Perhaps she was mistaken.  It is an ocean front resort (as opposed to resorts located in the desert that don't have any ocean view), but I will agree that the GB views are NOT Ocean Front.  

But, we didn't have to pay a premium to get an OV unit either.  There is no tiered pricing like the Hawaiian resorts you prefer. Owners I've talked to in the Grupo Mayan resorts couldn't believe that something like that was even available.

I'm not knocking your preference for Ocean Front - everyone needs to balance their  personal desires with their budget when they make their TS purchase.  From your posts, it's obvious that the Grand Bliss, or probably even the Grand Luxxe wouldn't be a good fit for you.  

To many of us, the added amenities (free rounds of golf on the resort's beautiful golf courses, free spa treatments, luxurious grounds with water slides, wave pools and lazy rivers, beautiful lagoons with boat service between the resorts, the no use - no pay and Senior Certificate options, etc...) more than make up for the difference between getting an Ocean View vs an Ocean Front.  How much extra would 16 rounds of golf cost in Hawaii?  Everyone has their personal preferences.  Why put our resorts down if it doesn't measure up to your standards?  I don't get it...

Curt


----------



## jlf58

Mike, your killing me, thats to funny !! So what you are saying is AFTER being lied to about what exactly they are buying and pretty much how the system actually works, they are at least treated well by member service. Ok, I didn't know that, I take back all the bad things I said about them. 
John Gotti killed people and robbed people but as long as some of the money went to good causes, its all good !! hey, he probably was a good buisnessman so I assume you liked him for that.



mikenk said:


> And although the GM salesmen are indeed unethical in their sales tactics; GM Member Services is extremely ethical in administering the contract which is much more important to an owner.Mike


----------



## DeniseM

Curt, since you asked -I posted that picture in direct response to this statement:





> also..I am sure the weeks YOU own,the resorts paid YOU to come use their facility...



I didn't post it to show that it is superior to GB - honestly that would be comparing apples to oranges since it's a matter of taste - although KBV it is much closer to the ocean.

I don't own ocean front on Maui, so I haven't said anything about that resort in this thread.  But yes, both the ocean front villas and the ocean view villas are much closer to the ocean at the Westin Ka'anapali than they are at the GB.  

But we bought on Maui BT (before TUG) and it was not an informed purchase, so I don't ever use it as an example of savvy buying.  If I had it to do over again, we wouldn't buy there, because although it's a beautiful resort and ocean front, we found out that we don't like big busy resorts, so now we just rent it.  And of course, we didn't know what we were doing and paid way too much.  I have no problem admitting that it was a mistake, and I advise newbies about the pitfalls of buying from the developer.  In hindsight - it was a bad decision, and I feel that I can make the most out of it by using my own mistake to educate others.   

We do own a deeded ocean front TS on Kauai, and we are guaranteed an ocean front unit - we can actually even pick the unit number when we make our reservation.  I paid $1,500 & $1,300 for the two weeks, several years ago, before the economy got so bad.  Recently, OF units at the same resort have sold for $1-$500 on ebay.  As I previously posted, we do not golf or care to participate in resort activities, and we actually prefer more of a private condo experience.  Which is why neither our Maui Resort or the Grupo Mayan resorts, are appealing to us. 

However, my real point in this thread was to clarify, for newbies who may not know, that despite what Grupo Mayan sales staff may say, the current Grand Bliss is NOT ocean front, and the ones under construction won't even have an ocean view.


----------



## curtbrown

One other thing that newbies need to consider before buying any timeshare (resale or not) is the issue of yearly maintenance fees.  While many of the newer GM contracts include the no-use/no-pay clause, the older ones don't.  But many of those contracts DO include a clause limiting the amount GM can increase the fees each year - 5% or the official U.S. Cost of Living Index, whichever is more.  For the last five years it has averaged BELOW a 5% increase each year.

Not bad, considering that some of the Westin properties in Maui (WKORV & WKORVN) have increased their maintenance fees by almost 100% in that same time period.  I don't remember the Westin salesman ever telling  me about that issue when I sat through their sales pitch...  Is not telling *the whole truth* the same as lying?  I don't know...  I do know that because of the unbelievable increase that those owners got stuck with, many of them let their contracts go back to Starwood, losing everything.  Since our main concern is for the newbies, maybe someone should post that info on the Hawaii boards to warn them over there...  Just a thought.

Curt


----------



## DeniseM

Curt - the pitfalls of buying from Starwood are *CONSTANTLY* discussed on the Starwood forum, and owners over there have no problems pointing out the many things that we dislike about the developer and management.  It's one of the major topics of discussion.  We always warn newbies that the maintenance fees and taxes on Maui are horrendous and offer many options to visit the resort without buying there.  Except for one or two posters, Starwood owners are not protective about Starwood - not in the least!  

That is why I just can't understand the extreme defensiveness of GM owners - in the other forums, owners don't have a problem criticizing their own resorts - far from it!  On the Starwood forum, OWNERS are the biggest critics!


----------



## curtbrown

DeniseM said:


> Curt - the pitfalls of buying from Starwood are *CONSTANTLY* discussed on the Starwood forum, and owners over there have no problems pointing out the many things that we dislike about the developer and management.  It's one of the major topics of discussion.  We always warn newbies that the maintenance fees and taxes on Maui are horrendous and offer many options to visit the resort without buying there.  Except for one or two posters, Starwood owners are not protective about Starwood - not in the least!
> 
> That is why I just can't understand the extreme defensiveness of GM owners - in the other forums, owners don't have a problem criticizing their own resorts - far from it!



And yet I don't see any "non-owners" coming on those boards to bash Starwood...  Why is that?  Maybe if we did do that, those owners might become defensive as well...  

Curt

P.S.- I will agree with you on one point though...  The Giants ARE the best team in MLB...


----------



## DeniseM

curtbrown said:


> And yet I don't see any "non-owners" coming on those boards to bash Starwood...  Why is that?  Maybe if we did do that, those owners might become defensive as well...



Nope - That's not the atmosphere over there.  As long as the visitors were knowledgeable and factual, we'd welcome the input and discuss how we dealt with the particular issue or problem.  We are well-aware that developers/management have their OWN best interest in mind, and that owners and buyers have to look out for themselves.  We have no illusions about Starwood - none!

Try it out - come over and ask a sensitive question - we will tell it like it is.

*In fact, there is one regular on the Starwood forum that has complained bitterly because I (the moderator of the forum) am such a critic of Starwood management.    I own 3 Starwood resorts, but I have no need to defend them at all!  If (when) they screw up - you will hear it from a Starwood owner first.


----------



## curtbrown

DeniseM said:


> Nope - That's not the atmosphere over there.  As long as the visitors were knowledgeable and factual, we'd welcome the input and discuss how we dealt with the particular issue or problem.



My point exactly.  People on this thread have posted things of which they have little or no knowledge (e.g.- the Grand Bliss being located in "the jungle").  After reading ALL about it here on this board, I figured that it must be true.  However, after reading it, I decided to do a little investigating, since this is the only place I've seen it mentioned.  After doing multiple web searches, and visiting every Grupo Mayan / Gruo Vidanta site I could find, I don't see anywhere that it's mentioned that a Grand Bliss is being built in Riviera Maya, in the jungle or otherwise.  I'm not sure that it isn't, but I'd like to know for sure.  Can someone point me in the right direction?  

Is it true?  Or is this more misinformation being continuously put out there by uninformed non-owners on this board?   Maybe...

Curt


----------



## curtbrown

DeniseM said:


> We are well-aware that developers/management have their OWN best interest in mind, and that owners and buyers have to look out for themselves.  We have no illusions about Starwood - none!



Nor do we about Grupo Mayan.  I think we, as GM owners, have all been saying exactly the same thing about Grupo Mayan.  I don't see any of us condoning the sales tactics the Sales Dept. uses,  but when we say owners and buyers at GM need to look out for themselves, all HELL breaks loose.  

Why the double standard?  People in glass houses...

Curt


----------



## rpennisi

curtbrown said:


> My point exactly.  People on this thread have posted things of which they have little or no knowledge (e.g.- the Grand Bliss being located in "the jungle").  After reading ALL about it here on this board, I figured that it must be true.  However, after reading it, I decided to do a little investigating, since this is the only place I've seen it mentioned.  After doing multiple web searches, and visiting every Grupo Mayan / Gruo Vidanta site I could find, I don't see anywhere that it's mentioned that a Grand Bliss is being built in Riviera Maya, in the jungle or otherwise.  I'm not sure that it isn't, but I'd like to know for sure.  Can someone point me in the right direction?
> 
> Is it true?  Or is this more misinformation being continuously put out there by uninformed non-owners on this board?   Maybe...
> 
> Curt


Curt,
I was in the Grand Mayan in February/March of this year in building 8-9.  I watched them clearing the land south of those buildings.  *This is not rumor or misinformation.*  I was told they were clearing for the Grand Bliss and they do call this the JUNGLE.  The Grand Mayan sign even calls it the JUNGLE.  The maps call it the JUNGLE.  

Of course you didn't find out any of this on their websites.  They don't give out any real information are their building anywhere online.  

They are the most closed mouthed organization I have ever encountered.  Don't make any bets on this, because *the Grand Bliss will be in the JUNGLE.*
Ron


----------



## curtbrown

Thanks for the update Ron.  

My one big concern, and I'm sure you can relate to this, is that there are a lot of rumors flying around as to what is being built and what isn't being built.  I had originally heard that those buildings were going to be Bliss (not Grand Bliss) and that is why the construction was all but stopped on them.  A lot of people (owners included) aren't aware of the distinction between those two resorts.

It also doesn't surprise me that the buildings are going up away from the beach due to hurricanes, as I mentioned earlier.  I mean, if the top dollar Grand Luxxe units aren't Ocean View / Ocean Front in RM, I wouldn't expect any of the others would be.  

My point is that rumors are flying all over regarding the new construction.  Not only at RM, but at Nuevo, Puerto Penasco and in Acapulco as well.  Until I hear an announcement directly from GM, I have to assume the info floating around out there came from a salesman (because none of the other employees are talking at all).  And for some reason, I'm a little suspect of ANYTHING a salesman says...  

One of the complaints people have with GM are about the "change of plans" that happen all the time.  I've gotten to the point that until I see something official come from GM, I don't believe anything.  So far I've been pretty happy with "most" of the results.  

Personally, while I don't think any timeshare will increase in monetary value, I think the GM resorts have been improved enough (and continue to be improved) to where I think my "personal vacation value" has improved.  I can't say that about the other timeshares I own that have been the same year in and year out.  I trade my other timeshares - I use my GM weeks.

Curt


----------



## DeniseM

curtbrown said:


> Nor do we about Grupo Mayan.  I think we, as GM owners, have all been saying exactly the same thing about Grupo Mayan.  I don't see any of us condoning the sales tactics the Sales Dept. uses,  but when we say owners and buyers at GM need to look out for themselves, all HELL breaks loose.
> 
> Why the double standard?  People in glass houses...
> 
> Curt



There is no double standard - newbies are treated completely differently in other forums on TUG, than they are [when they ask for help with Grupo Mayan.]  We don't criticize newbies for getting ripped off - we HELP THEM.

You should visit the other forums Curt, I think you'd be surprised in the difference in tone.  In the other forums, people may love their resort, but still be brutally honest about the shortcomings of the developer/management - it doesn't have to be all or nothing.


----------



## Karen G

DeniseM said:


> The Mexico forum is the worst place for a newbie to go for help.


I beg to differ on that general statement. I find most of the contributors to the Mexico forum to be very helpful. There's a lot of information in the sticky posts at the top of the forum page on many topics that would help newbies, and most people are quick to provide information when asked.

There are many other resorts in Mexico besides the Grupo Mayan/Grupo Vidante collection, but for some reason discussions about GM/GV sales practices seem to incite and inflame some people. But, I wouldn't characterize the whole Mexico forum as being unhelpful for newbies based on the behavior of a few.


----------



## DeniseM

Karen - I removed that line right before you posted - you are correct, and I had second thoughts after I read what I wrote.  I edited my post again to reflect the fact that it seems to be limited to Grupo Mayan issues.


----------



## Karen G

No problem.


----------



## curtbrown

DeniseM said:


> There is no double standard - newbies are treated completely differently in other forums on TUG, than they are [when they ask for help with Grupo Mayan.]  We don't criticize newbies for getting ripped off - we HELP THEM.
> 
> You should visit the other forums Curt, I think you'd be surprised in the difference in tone.  In the other forums, people may love their resort, but still be brutally honest about the shortcomings of the developer/management - it doesn't have to be all or nothing.



Denise,
Again, you know not of what you speak...  I invite you to go back to the first page of this entire thread.  Did you miss Post #2?  How about the following posts from other owners?  How about the posts by Grupo Mayan - have you seen ANY other Timeshare Companies monitor and respond to problems posted on any of the forums?  I didn't see any criticism at all.  PLEASE take the time to re-read all of the posts on that first page.  I look forward to you coming back on to post your retraction of that statement.

In fact, this thread didn't take a turn for the worse until you and the the "non-owner" pot-stirrers showed up.  Now you make the statement (that you apparently tried to hide) saying "*The Mexico forum is the worst place for a newbie to go for help*"?  How do you really feel, Denise.  

And the only reason the problems seem to be limited to Grupo Mayan issues is that there is a small group of card carrying Mayan haters that are looking for any little thing to jump in and stir thing up.  Your card, Denise, is in the mail.

Maybe if you would back away and leave this forum to people who actually own Mexico timeshares, this might be a better forum.  You have enough issues to deal with in your Hawaii Forum (which, since you own NO MEXICAN PROPERTIES, is where you belong). 

Curt


----------



## california-bighorn

curtbrown said:


> Denise,
> 
> 
> In fact, this thread didn't take a turn for the worse until you and the the "non-owner" pot-stirrers showed up.  Now you make the statement (that you apparently tried to hide) saying "*The Mexico forum is the worst place for a newbie to go for help*"?  How do you really feel, Denise.
> 
> And the only reason the problems seem to be limited to Grupo Mayan issues is that there is a small group of card carrying Mayan haters that are looking for any little thing to jump in and stir thing up.  Your card, Denise, is in the mail.
> 
> 
> 
> Curt



Curt could you also please send a card to me.  I would carry it proudly!!!


----------



## EJC

Curtbrown--

A better forum for whom?  Sally13 maybe.


----------



## pjrose

bicker, bicker, bicker.  

:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:


----------



## curtbrown

pjrose said:


> bicker, bicker, bicker.
> 
> :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:



Agreed...!!!  

I just hope this forum is used by and for the people who actually use or own properties in Mexico.  Not to make uncalled-for derogatory remarks towards the board in general or toward anyone you don't agree with.  Maybe then this forum could settle down and get back to what it was originally designed for.

Curt


----------



## Karen G

curtbrown said:


> I just hope this forum is used by and for the people who actually use or own properties in Mexico.


Anyone is welcome to post on any forum on TUG. One doesn't have to be an owner or even a user of a resort in any geographical area in order to post on a forum.

But, you do have to follow the posting rules and be courteous to others. Since this thread has outlived its usefulness, I think it's time to end it, so that's what I'm doing. 

I'm going back outside to enjoy the pool and the barbecue. Hope everyone else can do the same.


----------

