# Trust Vs Enrolled Points - Final Resolution?



## washjeff68 (Dec 9, 2010)

I followed this discussion for a while, and spent some time today trying to see if there was ever closure on this issue on Tug.

Do points created when an enrolled owner converts a week to points have the same access as points purchased in the new system?  How are points treated when someone has both (enrolled weeks and newly purchased points)  I've been told as recently as yesterday by a Marriott rep that "points are points" but I'd like to hear that conclusion from people here as well.

Thanks,

Jeff in Tennessee (right now, at Grande Vista)


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## dioxide45 (Dec 9, 2010)

The final resolution was determined very early on by a Marriott rep via DaveM. There is a technical difference between trust points and enrolled legacy points.

Trust points have direct reservation access to inventory in the trust. The trust is a true point system. It also has access to inventory in the MVC Exchange Company.

Legacy points only have direct access to inventory in the exchange company. They can't directly reserve trust inventory. This is really no different than having access to inventory in II. II and the MVC Exchange Company are both exchange companies. In order to get something out someone has to put it in.

In order to use some of each type of points for a reservation the inventory would have to be in both the trust and in the exchange company or all in the exchange company.

In practice however once inventory is commingled and trust owners have made exchanges for the MVC Exchange Company inventory, then legacy points have access to that trust inventory. Marriott also knows that not all trust inventory will be reserved by trust owners and can bulk deposit that inventory to the MVC Exchange Company. It can also bulk deposit to II.


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## Superchief (Dec 10, 2010)

Based on my first reservation request using DC points, it is clear that there are two separate 'pools'. I made a request for five nights at Newport Coast using my purchased points, with the intent of converting the reservation using 'plus points' as soon as they became available. The POA informed me that I may not be able to convert my reservation if there isn't availability in the 'legacy' pool. When I made the reservation, there was availability in both pools, so there may not be a problem.

I am curious to learn how they will handle reservations using a combination of 'trust' and 'legacy' DC points.


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## NJMOM2 (Dec 10, 2010)

I don't know what to believe any more.  I was just reading the MVC Insiders December Issue and clicked on the link for Owner's Tips for internal wait list.  Here is the link:

http://www.marriottvacationclub.com/landing/email/insider/december/owners.html#a2

*Enrolled Owners*
Use the new internal waitlist to simplify your vacation planning.

•When you’re using Vacation Club Points to plan a stay at a Marriott Vacation Club® resort, use the internal waitlist to place a request for a vacation that is not available (for 7 or more nights, up to 12 months in advance of the desired vacation date; for fewer than 7 nights, up to 10 months in advance). You may also put your name on the waiting list for multiple resorts and dates. Your Vacation Club Points will be placed in pending status until your vacation is confirmed or the request is canceled, and you may stay on the waitlist right up until one day prior to your desired arrival. We will notify you by mail or email if we are able to confirm your vacation.
•*As an Enrolled Owner, you have access to a resort’s Exchange inventory and Trust inventory *— both are managed through the internal waitlist if the vacation is not immediately available.

The sales people keep saying that unless you buy points you can't have anything in the Trust Inventory and you only have access to the Exchange Inventory. Well here it is on Marriott's web site stating that Enrolled owners have access to both pools.  I am just glad to hear some people are happy with the new program and getting some difficult exchanges with DC points.  I am one of those happy people - let's hope it stays that way.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 10, 2010)

NJMOM2 said:


> I don't know what to believe any more.  I was just reading the MVC Insiders December Issue and clicked on the link for Owner's Tips for internal wait list.  Here is the link:
> 
> http://www.marriottvacationclub.com/landing/email/insider/december/owners.html#a2
> 
> ...



I wonder if there isn't some miscommunication on the part of Marriott reps as well as on the part of those who are attending presentations.  It's simply flat-out wrong that Enrolled Owners can never have access to Trust inventory.  The thing is, depending on exactly what a rep says, I think it's like dioxide says above and the miscommunication may be in the technicalities.  Because technically, both of these statements which appear to be contradictory are correct:

Trust Members have access to Trust inventory and Enrolled Owners do not.

Both Trust and Enrolled Owners have access to Trust and Exchange inventory.

The difference between them is in the processing.  In order for an Enrolled Owner to exchange into Trust inventory, Marriott must move the inventory from the Trust to the Exchange Company.  If that wasn't happening I could understand getting all riled up over the possibility of Enrolled Owners not being able to use DC Points to exchange into Trust inventory.  But it is happening when Trust Members exchange to non-Trust inventory through the DC and II, as well as when they use their DC Points for any of the other options.  It also can happen because Marriott is a Trust Member (of umpteen zillion Points) and therefore can mingle inventory among the "buckets" in whatever way they please, to satisfy DC Member requests or to make it available for any other reason.

IMO, the Trust vs. Exchange Company inventory issue is a non-issue.  Enrolled Owners have been able to make reservations at Trust inventory almost since the first day Marriott started taking reservations.  Plus there isn't any one resort now which has had all of its inventory conveyed to the Trust - every established resort at this time has had Weeks sales.  Some of those Weeks Owners no doubt have enrolled in the DC which means their Weeks can be mingled among the buckets.

But even if in the future Marriott builds a new resort or establishes new inventory in any other way and all of it is conveyed to the Trust, it will make its way to the Exchange Company for DC Members sooner or later.  The only way it wouldn't is if all of it gets reserved by Trust Members and that's just not going to happen - Trust Members will always want to exchange into non-Trust resorts for the same reasons that Weeks/Enrolled Owners do, because there are so many different nice resorts to choose from.  As well, some will make use of the MRP-exchange option, the Explorer Club options, etc.


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## DanCali (Dec 10, 2010)

NJMOM2 said:


> •*As an Enrolled Owner, you have access to a resort’s Exchange inventory and Trust inventory *— both are managed through the internal waitlist if the vacation is not immediately available.
> 
> The sales people keep saying that unless you buy points you can't have anything in the Trust Inventory and you only have access to the Exchange Inventory. Well here it is on Marriott's web site stating that Enrolled owners have access to both pools.



The question is not whether you have "access". Of course it is correct that you have access to trust inventory - it just happens to be via the exchange company. If trust inventory is deposited, you have access. If it is not deposited, you do not. 

This distinction is between access and *direct* access. Only trust owners have DIRECT access to trust inventory - they do not need to go through an exchange process.

What you read on Marriott's website is correct but misleads 99% of people who read it (apparently including Tuggers who already read many times about that distinction... )

I view this distinction as a huge issue and it makes weeks owners second class citizens in some ways. As you point out, it's also a big enough issue to emphasize during a sales presentation to entice people to buy points (and in the process sometimes mislead them that their exchange points will magically become trust points if they buy 1000 or 1500 trust points)...


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## hotcoffee (Dec 10, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> . . . IMO, the Trust vs. Exchange Company inventory issue is a non-issue.  Enrolled Owners have been able to make reservations at Trust inventory almost since the first day Marriott started taking reservations. . . . .



I think experience has shown that you are largely correct.  The Ko Olina week I got via DC points was mostly likely out of the Trust.  The VOA told me that there were several options available for me at Ko Olina.  When I expressed some fear about losing a contiguous week to the week I had at MOC, she told me that there were several of that same week available.  I got the impression that there were a lot of Ko Olina weeks available in the exchange inventory.  Since we know there are a ton of Trust weeks at Ko Olina, it seems very likely that many of those got deposited into the exchange inventory.

I think the Trust inventory is where we are going to get most of our points exchanges from.



SueDonJ said:


> Trust Members will always want to exchange into non-Trust resorts for the same reasons that Weeks/Enrolled Owners do, because there are so many different nice resorts to choose from.  As well, some will make use of the MRP-exchange option, the Explorer Club options, etc.



It looks to me that Marriott is really pushing the Explorer program.  The various exchange options (like Explorer) pretty much guarantees that Trust inventory will continue to make it into the exchange inventory.

I think there is bright future for points owners who have enough points to make good exchanges.  Those who are points-poor, however, might have to look hard at whether the flexibility of the DC program makes is worthwhile for them.


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## Eli Mairs (Dec 10, 2010)

DanCali said:


> it's also a big enough issue to emphasize during a sales presentation to entice people to buy points (and in the process sometimes mislead them that their exchange points will magically become trust points if they buy 1000 or 1500 trust points)...



This is exactly what we were told at a sales presentation at Lakeshore Reserve two weeks ago. The minimum is now 1500 points, and of course, the price was going to increase in the next couple of days. 
All of our legacy points, when combined with the purchased trust points, would become trust points. Our sales rep was very convincing, and we almost went for it.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 10, 2010)

*Required Reading*

The cookies and the marbles.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=950358&postcount=228

However I think it is a little more restrictive than laid out in the post. It seems that instead of moving marbles from the trust, they are moving cookies.


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## puckmanfl (Dec 11, 2010)

good morning...

it seems like that was almost yesterday!!! Where has the time gone!!1   Can't believe we are rehashing the cookies/marbles and milk..

After 5 months of this...

I have snagged the following...

5 days summit watch 2/6-2/11 2011 2 bedroom Did this yesterday, to match my II exchange  (Exchange company)

7 days 3 bedroom OF Kauai Lagoons 5/28-6/4 2011 (trust)

6 days OS Surf Watch  7/30 8/5  2011 

2 (5 day Mountainside 2 bedroom) 1/8-1/13 2012...did this twice so I have 2 units/4 bedrooms..

Trust pts are not the same as legacy points but I do believe that with system evolution and maturity they do functionally comingle...


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## dioxide45 (Dec 11, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> it seems like that was almost yesterday!!! Where has the time gone!!1   Can't believe we are rehashing the cookies/marbles and *milk*..



I searched the entire post and didn't find any reference to milk.


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## puckmanfl (Dec 11, 2010)

good morning...

just trying to be funny and cute...

I really liked the post. I added the milk...


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## jimf41 (Dec 11, 2010)

The milk is there, you just have to look hard. It's SKIM milk

And that ladies and gentlemen is my entry for the top ten worst jokes of 2010.


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## cam28 (Dec 12, 2010)

*spent 3 hrs in presentation yesterday*

We own 4 deeded Marriott Weeks and went to a presentation to learn more about the new points program.  We were strongly encouraged to purchase a minimum of 1500 points - or trust shares as they were called because then our other weeks when exchanged for points would get preferential treatment when requesting actual reservations.  Also, we were told that if we don't purchase new shares, then our deeded weeks exchanged for points are only good to exchange for other DEEDED weeks that have been deposited.  Since all of Marriott's newer resorts are now in a TRUST vs. being deeded weeks, this means that over time, the older/deeded week owners will not have as much access to those properties.  We did not purchase these new points yesterday as we want to think it through more.  It would have cost us about $15k when all was said and done.  I get what they are doing but I am a bit put off by all of this.  We have spent close to $100k on all our weeks and to be told that we run the risk of being shut out of our exchange choices in the newer and to be built Marriott ts resorts doesn't feel right.  In the end, not sure we have any recourse and may have to suck it up and just buy these points.  Anyone else get the same explanation on this?

Thanks.  Cara in FL (staying to Grande Vista right now)


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## billymach4 (Dec 12, 2010)

Cam28,

Keep in mind that you have plenty of time top signup for the DC system. I would take a wait and see approach. Yes they say prices will go up. But all of this is a marketing trick to hook us into buying now!

Everything is relative in my opinion. Inflation goes up, as do taxes, oil, food, and all living expenses. Your income will also keep pace with all of these increases. 

Marriott Sales is really stretching the the truth here. You have forked over the price of a new house at $100,000. I would not give Marriott more of your hard earned dollars.


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## DanCali (Dec 12, 2010)

cam28 said:


> We were strongly encouraged to purchase a minimum of 1500 points - or trust shares as they were called because then our other weeks when exchanged for points would get preferential treatment when requesting actual reservations.  Also, we were told that if we don't purchase new shares, then our deeded weeks exchanged for points are only good to exchange for other DEEDED weeks that have been deposited.



This is total nonesense. Unless, you see it in writing, don't believe it for a second. It is impossible for weeks exchanged for points to get any form of preferential treatment just because you also own 1500 trust points. Exchange points are exchange points and nothing will change that.

This shows, once again, that the best way for Marriott to sell this exchange system is by spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt. If there were merits, they would be selling the merits...


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## hotcoffee (Dec 12, 2010)

cam28 said:


> . . . . Also, we were told that if we don't purchase new shares, then our deeded weeks exchanged for points are only good to exchange for other DEEDED weeks that have been deposited.  Since all of Marriott's newer resorts are now in a TRUST vs. being deeded weeks, this means that over time, the older/deeded week owners will not have as much access to those properties. . . .



I believe this to be false.  If you have the points, you can exchange for anything in the exchange inventory regardless of how it got there.  It is highly likely that much of the Trust inventory will end up being deposited into the exchange inventory.  This can happen due to it being excess (i.e., not accounted for by points sold) or due to Trust owners exchanging their points (which is probably what many Trust owners are going to do).  In addition, there is non-Trust inventory that will be deposited by Marriott.  This enventory might consist of weeks traded for MRP, MF delinquencies, foreclosures, ROFRs, and unsold weeks at non-Trust resorts.

You don't have to buy any extra points unless you want to.


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## Eli Mairs (Dec 12, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> If you have the points, you can exchange for anything in the exchange inventory regardless of how it got there.
> You don't have to buy any extra points unless you want to.



Can anyone confirm this??
We were told point blank at a presentation at Lakeshore Reserve two weeks ago, that unless you buy a minimum of 1500 trust points, you will NOT have access to the trust inventory with your converted weeks.


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## puckmanfl (Dec 12, 2010)

good evening...

absolute horse hockey.  I have 13,686 converted legacy points (did not purchase any Trust) points.  I snagged Kauai Lagoons 5/28-6/4 3 bedroom OF.  KL is a TRUST resort.

please PM me the name of your rep at lakeshore, as my guru is there and can correct this.  We can fix this perpetuation of falsehoods!!!!


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## dioxide45 (Dec 12, 2010)

Eli Mairs said:


> Can anyone confirm this??
> We were told point blank at a presentation at Lakeshore Reserve two weeks ago, that unless you buy a minimum of 1500 trust points, you will NOT have access to the trust inventory with your converted weeks.



This is true. However trust inventory can become exchange inventory.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 12, 2010)

Eli Mairs said:


> Can anyone confirm this??
> We were told point blank at a presentation at Lakeshore Reserve two weeks ago, that unless you buy a minimum of 1500 trust points, you will NOT have access to the trust inventory with your converted weeks.



Simply put, you don't need to purchase DC Points to gain access to Trust inventory because it is accessible by Exchange Members (Enrolled Owners) if/when it is deposited to the DC Exchange Company, which has been happening since almost the first day DC Points reservations were taken by Marriott.  Here is an older post which details as near as I can figure how this all works.

There is a technical distinction, no doubt, in that DC Trust Members have direct access to Trust inventory while DC Exchange Members must access it through the DC Exchange Company.  But for all practical purposes the distinction is a non-issue, and the proof of that is in the existing confirmed reservations for Trust inventory that Exchange Members have received.

Grrrrrrr.  I hate the misrepresentations that Marriott sales reps make in order to garner a sale.  Always have and always will.  It's too bad, but it seems that what has always occurred with Weeks sales is continuing with Points sales.  "Be Educated."  It's been a TUG mantra since long before Marriott rolled out its DC, and as we're learning it's as important now as it's always been.


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## Herb33 (Dec 13, 2010)

> I hate the misrepresentations that Marriott sales reps make in order to garner a sale. Always have and always will. It's too bad, but *it seems that what has always occurred with Weeks sales is continuing with Points sales*.



I have to mildly disagree with this sentiment.  I say _mildly_ only because it's been 10 years since I purchased my 4th and last Week from Marriott.  So I don't know how things might have changed with Weeks sales since then. 

But with all 4 of my Weeks transactions I never once felt that the product, my options for using it, or the terms of purchase were in any way misrepresented.   The product essentialy sold itself, and to this day I've never once felt a moment of regret for those transactions.

My experience with the new program, however, puts me in mind of my cattle-call with Fairfield Resorts the day before my first Marriott presentation in '97:  say-anything sleaze with a thin veneer of sweaty desperation.

It's as if the Marriott sales force now considers itself to be in training to run for political office.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 13, 2010)

Herb33 said:


> I have to mildly disagree with this sentiment.  I say _mildly_ only because it's been 10 years since I purchased my 4th and last Week from Marriott.  So I don't know how things might have changed with Weeks sales since then.
> 
> *But with all 4 of my Weeks transactions I never once felt that the product, my options for using it, or the terms of purchase were in any way misrepresented.   The product essentialy sold itself, and to this day I've never once felt a moment of regret for those transactions.*
> 
> ...



What I bolded has been our exact same experience, Herb, we've never regretted for a moment our Weeks purchases.  But reading TUG it seems like the few of us who think we're getting what we're supposed to from our Weeks are the minority because TUG has been full of "my salesman lied" and "if his lips are moving he's lying" posts ever since I joined.

Now with Points it seems like there's a reason for those posts to continue, and I know from your posts that you've had bad experiences with a few different reps since the rollout.  But we're not in the same boat, yet.  We haven't gone to a DC sales presentation and probably won't.  Although, if ever we're in the market for Points then we'll confidently call our sales rep who has been a source of correct information before and after the DC.  Since the rollout I've spoken with her a few times - she explained what she could and forwarded what she couldn't up the ladder.  I've spoken with the GM's at my resorts and the few VOA's who handled my DC reservations, as well as an exec who has spent lots of time on the phone and in email with me.  None of them have tried to tell me that I need to buy Trust Points in order to gain access to Trust inventory or to magically turn my converted Weeks Points into Trust Points.  So far <knock on wood> it hasn't been my personal experience that Marriott has sunk to "sleaze" on the meter.  I hope it never does.  I also hope that Marriott learned a lesson from the mass confusion caused by the way the DC was rolled out, but I'm not sure some of that couldn't have prevented.

That's what I was trying to say, that there has always been a chance to get a bad sales presentation.  But it wasn't a 100% guarantee and it still isn't.  It seems like the chance for a bad sales experience is continuing (maybe with higher odds) and I wish it wasn't.


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## thinze3 (Dec 13, 2010)

Susan,
They are all the same sales people. Of coarse they are continuing their misleading ways from weeks sales into points sales.

They all get paid on commission and need to use the fear factor to try and seal the deal the minute one starts asking beefy questions, like Trust vs Legacy.


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## wof45 (Dec 13, 2010)

I think these are not necessarily misleading sales people.  I believe that the points program is complex and the sales people just do not understand all of the complexity.

The questions tuggers have about legacy points and trust points are after all of he discussions here.  At a sales location, they probably don't have these questions often.

It would be a mistake to believe that the sales people actually know the right answers.


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## DanCali (Dec 13, 2010)

Eli Mairs said:


> Can anyone confirm this??
> We were told point blank at a presentation at Lakeshore Reserve two weeks ago, that unless you buy a minimum of 1500 trust points, you will NOT have access to the trust inventory with your converted weeks.





dioxide45 said:


> This is true. However trust inventory can become exchange inventory.




The distinction is as I wrote in post #6...

You converted weeks definitely have access to trust inventory (via the exchange company and only inventory that has been deposited)

You do not get *direct* access to trust inventory with converted weeks.

Most importantly, buying 1500 points does *not* change any of the above... Only your 1500 trust poinst would have direct access to trust inventory. Converted weeks are converted weeks and those points can only access exchange inventory.


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## DanCali (Dec 13, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> There is a technical distinction, no doubt, in that DC Trust Members have direct access to Trust inventory while DC Exchange Members must access it through the DC Exchange Company.  But for all practical purposes the distinction is a non-issue, and the proof of that is in the existing confirmed reservations for Trust inventory that Exchange Members have received.



You believe it is a "non-issue"... I believe it is a huge issue...

But the fact some several Tuggers confirmed reservations doesn't make it a "non issue" and it is by no means a "proof"... This is almost like me getting a reservation at Harborside or St. John via a Starwood internal exchange (which I have managed to do several times) and subsequently saying inventory is not an issue.

Tell me how many attempted reservations were made for Trust inventory vs. successful reservations and then we can decide how big the issue is.


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## windje2000 (Dec 13, 2010)

wof45 said:


> I think these are not necessarily misleading sales people.  I believe that the points program is complex and the sales people just do not understand all of the complexity.
> 
> The questions tuggers have about legacy points and trust points are after all of he discussions here.  At a sales location, they probably don't have these questions often.
> 
> *It would be a mistake to believe that the sales people actually know the right answers.*


*
*
It's their full time job to know the right answers.  

If they don't know the right answers, they should be canned.  

Unless of course the 'ignorant' lead the sales force in $ closed. 

Which they probably do.  This product won't sell itself.


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## wof45 (Dec 13, 2010)

I don't see Marriott sales people being any different than real estate sales people, or car sales people or best buy computer people or sears appliance sale people.

They know more than 90% of the population and less than the other 10%.

I take what they say with a grain of salt, and read all of the documentation to learn the truth.


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## windje2000 (Dec 13, 2010)

wof45 said:


> I don't see Marriott sales people being any different than real estate sales people, or car sales people or best buy computer people or sears appliance sale people.
> 
> They know more than 90% of the population and less than the other 10%.
> 
> I take what they say with a grain of salt, and read all of the documentation to learn the truth.



I respectfully disagree.  The best sales people know their product inside and out and are good teachers.  The subset of the Marriott sales staff we are talking about are either: 

1.  pernicious prevaricators or 

2.  so dumb they can't find their own rear ends with both hands and a road map.


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## Eli Mairs (Dec 13, 2010)

thinze3 said:


> They all get paid on commission and need to use the fear factor to try and seal the deal the minute one starts asking beefy questions, like Trust vs Legacy.



At our recent presentation at Lakeshore Reserve, the sales rep said that they are no longer on commission. They are all on salary. If this is true, it may be lack of information rather than fear factor, and they shouldn't be too concerned about sealing the deal, other than receiving plaques and awards.


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## cam28 (Dec 14, 2010)

Eli Mairs said:


> At our recent presentation at Lakeshore Reserve, the sales rep said that they are no longer on commission. They are all on salary. If this is true, it may be lack of information rather than fear factor, and they shouldn't be too concerned about sealing the deal, other than receiving plaques and awards.



Thank you to everyone who has weighed in, it is most helpful.  I have a couple of comments and info.  1. I say everything that follows with the preface that we love our Marriott weeks. We feel the value is there and they consistently deliver a good product.  All that said, 2. The sales presentation we recently went to that I posted at the beginning was high pressure and the sales manager who came in once the rep couldn't close us has been in his job for 10 years at this resort so if he doesn't understand or know all the details of his product, even with the DC changes, then shame on him and he shouldn't be in his job.  When he told us that if we didn't purchase 1500 shares our current weeks converted to shares would not get the same treatment and would be limited, I heard him loud and clear and asked him to explain it several times because I was sure I was getting something wrong - how could this be! But no, I heard and my husband heard right.  In fact, the rep commented several times about how knowledgeable we are in general and that we "have it down" when it comes to how to maximize our ownership.  So, I can only conclude that at least at Grande Vista high pressure sales tactics and trying to use the fear factor are in full force.  Some of the one liners this guy laid on us were commical not to mention we felt trapped because every time we said thank you we have to go, he would start up again.  We aren't rude people but I guess we should have just stood up and left - we were there 3 hours!!! 3. I completely disagree with the person who said that the difference between our weeks and these trust shares is insignificant.  Of course, reservations are all being confirmed now because this is new.  Once this system becomes crowed like Interval and once Marriott completes the construction of more properties which are part of the Trust and not the old way, it will matter big time to those of us who, like me and my husband have spent a small fortune on our weeks.  Time will end up being the judge of it all so stay tuned.  4. I have it from a very reliable source at MVCI that technically the sales people aren't on commission but this is just semantics because they are bonused and their bonus levels are directly calculated based on their sales volume.  It is just another way of getting commission but being able to call it something different and they are spinning it into one of their sales tactics.  C'mon people - wake up on that one!  And in the end - who cares?  I have no problem with a good sales person making a good living and earning bonus, commission or whatever it is called.  Frankly, I would question how motivated someone is to be in sales if they aren't getting some sort of incentive financially.  The problem is with the misinformation and high pressure tactics.  

Thank you again for all your comments and info - keep them coming.  This is the only way we can all be smart owners and consumers.


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## Superchief (Dec 14, 2010)

*More Complicated Than It Should Be*

I definitely confirmed today that trust points can't be combined with legacy even when both 'pools' are available. I wanted to use my 1400 plus points for Newport Coast on a Sun-Thurs, a total of 1500 points. I was not able to use 1400 plus 100 DC points for the reservation. I had to reserve four nights for 1200 plus pts, and 1 night for 300 DC points. This leaves me with 200 points that will expire at the end of the year. It will be very difficult to find something for exactly 200 points. 

My sales person told me that my points could be combined as long as both pools were available. This is obviously not the case. The inability to combine points at any time will make it very complicated to plan and effectively utlize the DC system. I hope MVC rethinks this part of the program.


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## DanCali (Dec 14, 2010)

Superchief said:


> The inability to combine points at any time will make it very complicated to plan and effectively utlize the DC system. I hope MVC rethinks this part of the program.



I am not sure there is anything to rethink. This is a byproduct of the way the exchange system was designed. We often think of it as a "points system" but it is not. Even Marriott is careful not to refer to it as such. It is a "points based usage option" (or whatever they call it). If Marriott had designed a true points system 25 years ago, it would be friendlier. But given the legacy weeks, the system was designed the way it was designed and DC points simply cannot book trust inventory directly. Trust points have access to trust inventory and exchange inventory. A week converted to DC points has access to exchange inventory only.

Marriott salespeople representing otherwise is pure and simple misrepresentation. The fact that the written documents clear them of any legal liability associated with such misrepresentations doesn't make it any better, IMO.


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## hotcoffee (Dec 14, 2010)

Superchief said:


> I definitely confirmed today that trust points can't be combined with legacy even when both 'pools' are available. I wanted to use my 1400 plus points for Newport Coast on a Sun-Thurs, a total of 1500 points. I was not able to use 1400 plus 100 DC points for the reservation. I had to reserve four nights for 1200 plus pts, and 1 night for 300 DC points. This leaves me with 200 points that will expire at the end of the year. It will be very difficult to find something for exactly 200 points.
> 
> My sales person told me that my points could be combined as long as both pools were available. This is obviously not the case. The inability to combine points at any time will make it very complicated to plan and effectively utlize the DC system. I hope MVC rethinks this part of the program.



Well, I was able to combine mine.  Otherwise, I could not have been able to get either of my reservations.  I dealt with four different VOAs during the times I was on the phone reserving next year's weeks.  None of them had any issues with combining my points.

BTW, from your discription, it sounds like they did combine your points for what was available in one of the inventories.  What might have happened is that they did not have five consecutive nights in the exchange inventory.  So, they allowed you to grab the additional night directly out of the Trust inventory.  

You can only combine the points to reserve inventory in the exchange pool.  If there is not enough there, then it is a no-go for the desired exchange.  Since you also apparently own some Trust points, they might have allowed you to take an extra night from the Trust.


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## windje2000 (Dec 14, 2010)

cam28 said:


> Thank you to everyone who has weighed in, it is most helpful.  I have a couple of comments and info.  1. I say everything that follows with the preface that we love our Marriott weeks. We feel the value is there and they consistently deliver a good product.  All that said, 2. The sales presentation we recently went to that I posted at the beginning was high pressure and the sales manager who came in once the rep couldn't close us has been in his job for 10 years at this resort so if he doesn't understand or know all the details of his product, even with the DC changes, then shame on him and he shouldn't be in his job.  When he told us that if we didn't purchase 1500 shares our current weeks converted to shares would not get the same treatment and would be limited, I heard him loud and clear and asked him to explain it several times because I was sure I was getting something wrong - how could this be! But no, I heard and my husband heard right.  In fact, the rep commented several times about how knowledgeable we are in general and that we "have it down" when it comes to how to maximize our ownership.  So, I can only conclude that at least at Grande Vista high pressure sales tactics and trying to use the fear factor are in full force.  Some of the one liners this guy laid on us were commical not to mention we felt trapped because every time we said thank you we have to go, he would start up again.  We aren't rude people but I guess we should have just stood up and left - we were there 3 hours!!! 3. I completely disagree with the person who said that the difference between our weeks and these trust shares is insignificant.  Of course, reservations are all being confirmed now because this is new.  Once this system becomes crowed like Interval and once Marriott completes the construction of more properties which are part of the Trust and not the old way, it will matter big time to those of us who, like me and my husband have spent a small fortune on our weeks.  Time will end up being the judge of it all so stay tuned.  4. I have it from a very reliable source at MVCI that technically the sales people aren't on commission but this is just semantics because they are bonused and their bonus levels are directly calculated based on their sales volume.  It is just another way of getting commission but being able to call it something different and they are spinning it into one of their sales tactics.  C'mon people - wake up on that one!  And in the end - who cares?  I have no problem with a good sales person making a good living and earning bonus, commission or whatever it is called.  Frankly, I would question how motivated someone is to be in sales if they aren't getting some sort of incentive financially.  The problem is with the misinformation and high pressure tactics.
> 
> Thank you again for all your comments and info - keep them coming.  This is the only way we can all be smart owners and consumers.



Regardless of whether your compensation scheme is salary, salary + incentives, pure commission,  or some combination of the above, if you are a salesman who is not selling, you will lose your job.

You are simply witnessing desperate people doing desperate things.  Its hard enough to sell a good timeshare product in a good economy.  Its even worse when the product is less than good and the economy is in the tank.  What other business model includes paying (bribing) people to sit through a high pressure sales pitch?  You are fortunate that you are a well informed potential buyer.


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## Superchief (Dec 14, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Well, I was able to combine mine.  Otherwise, I could not have been able to get either of my reservations.  I dealt with four different VOAs during the times I was on the phone reserving next year's weeks.  None of them had any issues with combining my points.
> 
> BTW, from your discription, it sounds like they did combine your points for what was available in one of the inventories.  What might have happened is that they did not have five consecutive nights in the exchange inventory.  So, they allowed you to grab the additional night directly out of the Trust inventory.
> 
> You can only combine the points to reserve inventory in the exchange pool.  If there is not enough there, then it is a no-go for the desired exchange.  Since you also apparently own some Trust points, they might have allowed you to take an extra night from the Trust.



While I was able to combine points from different sources for the same stay, I was not able to combine them for any one night of the stay. I wanted to use up my expiring plus points prior to using any trust points that can be carried over to 2012. I reserved four nighs (1200) with plus points. However, since I only had 200 plus points remaining, I could not apply them for the fifth night. 

This inabliltiy to combine points will make it very difficult to effectively use all of your points. I now have to find something that costs exactly 200 points from the legacy pool. So much for the flexibility of the new system.


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## DanCali (Dec 14, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> You can only combine the points to reserve inventory in the exchange pool.






Superchief said:


> While I was able to combine points from different sources for the same stay, I was not able to combine them for any one night of the stay.



There seem to be two separate issues. 

(i) combining Trust points and DC points to directly book trust inventory. I think we all(?) agree that this cannot be done (except Marriott salespeople during a sales presentation )
. 

DC points can access trust inventory only indirectly via an exchange and only deposited inventory.

(ii) combining Trust points and DC points for exchange inventory. I thought this could be done but reports from hotcoffee and Superchief conflict on this matter. It seems that you can combine them for the same stay, but not for the same night.

So suppose you have the following in exchange inventory:

night 1: 2000pts
night 2: 2000pts
night 3: 2000pts

and you have 1500 trust points and 4500 DC points, you will not be able to book all three nights even though you have the right number of points.

On the other hand this should be doable:

night 1: 1500pts (exchange with trust points)
night 2: 2000pts (exchange with DC points)
night 3: 2500pts (exchange with DC points)

In the first example, you will have 1500 trust points and 500 DC points left over and you cannot combine them for a night that costs 1501 to 2000 points. The best you can do is exchange into a night with 1500 points and have 500 points left over.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 14, 2010)

DanCali said:


> There seem to be two separate issues.
> 
> (i) combining Trust points and DC points to exchange into trust inventory. I think we all(?) agree that this cannot be done (except Marriott salespeople during a sales presentation )



Being a nitpick here, but you can. You can use trust points and DC points to *exchange* for trust inventory (as long as that trust inventory is in the exchange company). You can't however directly book trust inventory with combined points. Instead of the word *exchange* you should have used *directly book*.


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## DanCali (Dec 15, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> Being a nitpick here, but you can. You can use trust points and DC points to *exchange* for trust inventory (as long as that trust inventory is in the exchange company). You can't however directly book trust inventory with combined points. Instead of the word *exchange* you should have used *directly book*.



Good catch! I'll fix my post.


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## ocdb8r (Dec 15, 2010)

DanCali said:


> You believe it is a "non-issue"... I believe it is a huge issue...
> 
> But the fact some several Tuggers confirmed reservations doesn't make it a "non issue" and it is by no means a "proof"... This is almost like me getting a reservation at Harborside or St. John via a Starwood internal exchange (which I have managed to do several times) and subsequently saying inventory is not an issue.
> 
> Tell me how many attempted reservations were made for Trust inventory vs. successful reservations and then we can decide how big the issue is.



I agree...it is indeed an issue.  Just to add my recent experience:

Just called and attempted to get a reservation at Lakeshore Reserve.  My 800 bonus points have not yet been posted to my account.  Rep initially said there was plenty of availability...then as he attempted to book he started reading to himself off the screen.  The availability was only for "trust points."  He advised me 2 things: 1) I could put in a waitlist request.  In his experience there was a high probability this would be confirmed given there was inventory available, although he said it may take 6-8 weeks.  2) I would be able to reserve some of the nights once my 800 bonus points were posted as they are trust points.

Now, what this says to me is converted weeks points in this instance were second class.  I agree that in the future the same could hold true for trust points trying to get into legacy resorts, however the dichotomy doesn't sit well with me in any instance.  Second, this is going to be problematic in the future unless Marriott does some massaging.  It's highly unlikely that exchanging between trust points and the "exchange system" points is going to be balanced.  That means someone is going to be unhappy.  If trust points do in fact have access to both inventories that means it's likely legacy weeks that will bare the brunt.

At the end of the day, it's not a big deal to me.  Like I posted in another thread, it's just another option.  I could still trade via II (as I always did in the past)...more just an additional data point for the conversation here.  I have to admit, it will be interesting to see how it shakes out over time.


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## DanCali (Dec 15, 2010)

ocdb8r said:


> He advised me 2 things: 1) I could put in a waitlist request.  In his experience there was a high probability this would be confirmed given there was inventory available, although he said it may take 6-8 weeks.  2) ...



Normally this wouldn't be a big deal, but in Marriott's system waitlist means "deposit first". Give up your home resort reservation to convert to DC points and hope for the best (in a yet unproven system)...




ocdb8r said:


> Now, what this says to me is converted weeks points in this instance were second class.



This is exactly what they are. Shifting inventory around just masks the problem; it doesn't solve this underlying fundamental issue.



ocdb8r said:


> At the end of the day, it's not a big deal to me.  Like I posted in another thread, it's just another option.



True - it's just another option. If it was free, I might even give it a try... Paying $2000 for the privilege of being a second class citizen in a mediocre (at best) exchange system doesn't appeal to me that much.


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## wof45 (Dec 15, 2010)

I have never quite understood why Marriott feels a need to have multiple buckets of points.  Once someone converts the week to points, why does it matter where the points came from?  In the end, there are so many points and so many days to spend them on.

It is pretty obvious that deposit first makes the system work well, and request first causes shortages, but there are other ways to deal with that problem than making multiple buckets of points.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 15, 2010)

wof45 said:


> I have never quite understood why Marriott feels a need to have multiple buckets of points.  Once someone converts the week to points, why does it matter where the points came from?  In the end, there are so many points and so many days to spend them on.
> 
> It is pretty obvious that deposit first makes the system work well, and request first causes shortages, but there are other ways to deal with that problem than making multiple buckets of points.



There are legal regulations that Marriott has to follow that have to do with over-selling a total resort and its individual intervals (and now the Trust,) over-booking a particular interval (for example, Week 26 oceanside 2BR at SurfWatch,) over-booking a particular owner subset (Multi-week, Single-Week, Trust,) etc.  I'm guessing that's the reason for the "buckets" - Marriott has to conform to such regulations and prove for auditing purposes that they've not violated them, and I'm sure their computer systems keep track of inventory subsets automatically.

We here on TUG are the ones who have dubbed their inventory controls as "buckets" and it's a new term for us since the advent of the DC.  But IMO there have always been different "buckets" of inventory in Marriott's system and the DC has simply added a few more.


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## windje2000 (Dec 15, 2010)

wof45 said:


> *I have never quite understood why Marriott feels a need to have multiple buckets of points.*  Once someone converts the week to points, why does it matter where the points came from?  In the end, there are so many points and so many days to spend them on.
> 
> It is pretty obvious that deposit first makes the system work well, and request first causes shortages, but there are other ways to deal with that problem than making multiple buckets of points.



Technically the points plan is a land trust.  Points are units of beneficial interest in a trust.

Trusts have trustees.  The trustees are Marriott corporate officers.  Trustees owe a fiduciary duty to the trust beneficiaries, who in this instance are the points owners.  

Fiduciary responsibilities represent a very high standard of behavior and there's plenty of statutes and case law governing the strict standards which must be met by trustees.  The penalties for breaching a fiduciary responsibility are high

The 'buckets' and other 'formalities' are there because they have to be.  And there are sure to be plenty of audit trails so that the auditors of the trust can opine on its financial position and results of operations and that the terms of the trust are being conformed to by the actions of the trustees and their delegates.  

The fact that there are multiple related parties in the mix makes it that much more important that the 'formalities' be followed to the letter.


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## hotcoffee (Dec 15, 2010)

I've always thought that just considering the Trust as being like a big "resort" is a good analogy to make.  The Trust is real estate property that is owned by those owning Trust points.  Neither a legacy owner nor a Trust owner can make an exchange for inventory that is not available in the exchange inventory.

As far as whether there are superior or inferior points, that is just an opinion.  If an enrolled weeks owner at a given resort decides to reserve at his home resort, he is able to do that as he always could.  If he elects points to do an exchange, his week is made available to the exchange inventory.  A Trust owner can reserve at a Trust resort.  If he elects to exchange his points, inventory equivalent to his points is available to the exchange inventory.

Note that there is still plenty of excess inventory in the Trust due to there still being many unsold points.  Marriott can deposit some of that excess inventory into the exchange inventory whenever it wants.  Before the DC program, unsold weeks would more likely be deposited into II.  That is probably happening a lot less now.  So, until the number of points sold reaches some threshold, it is likely that Marriott will be dumping Trust inventory into the exchange inventory whenever it sees fit.

As to whether points can be combined to reserve any given day at some resort, that could be true.  During the times I hashed over various exchange options with the VOAs I talked to, that issue never came up.  The only issue was the number of points to reserve a week(s) at the resort(s) I was interested in.  Since I was only trying to reserve full weeks, nothing was said about what they were applying my points to.  Perhaps, there could be some limitation to the computer program that handles the reservations that makes combining bonus points and elected points to reserve a day not doable.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 15, 2010)

Marriott could have created something that more resembled a traditional point system instead of a point exchange system. All they had to do was write in the trust documents that unreserved inventory at the 10 month mark would all be deposited in to the exchange company. Point reservations made by trust owners after 10 months would have to be done through the exchange company. This would make most unsold and unreserved inventory at 10 months out available to everyone enrolled.


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## llp479 (Dec 16, 2010)

cam28 said:


> We own 4 deeded Marriott Weeks and went to a presentation to learn more about the new points program.  We were strongly encouraged to purchase a minimum of 1500 points - or trust shares as they were called because then our other weeks when exchanged for points would get preferential treatment when requesting actual reservations.  Also, we were told that if we don't purchase new shares, then our deeded weeks exchanged for points are only good to exchange for other DEEDED weeks that have been deposited.  Since all of Marriott's newer resorts are now in a TRUST vs. being deeded weeks, this means that over time, the older/deeded week owners will not have as much access to those properties.  We did not purchase these new points yesterday as we want to think it through more.  It would have cost us about $15k when all was said and done.  I get what they are doing but I am a bit put off by all of this.  We have spent close to $100k on all our weeks and to be told that we run the risk of being shut out of our exchange choices in the newer and to be built Marriott ts resorts doesn't feel right.  In the end, not sure we have any recourse and may have to suck it up and just buy these points.  Anyone else get the same explanation on this?
> 
> Thanks.  Cara in FL (staying to Grande Vista right now)



Cara - we got the same pitch at Ko Olina this past week.  Given even a different twist, that we needed the points to achieve some level of preferred status that would give us more perks.  We were also told that we would never be "allowed" to stay in the new building that was opening next year, or the one being added later, it belonged to the trust.  Told him I was just fine with that as it was further from the main building and the restaurants.  We bought where we wanted to stay, so I'm not in any hurry to do anything.

We were told very clearly that there were two "point" pools, the trust and the legacy and never the two shall meet.  Two different people told us that, as well as tapped dancing around what I considered to be two very important questions.  I asked if the point values for a week would change.  For example, Disney guarantees that the points I own will always get me a week in a two bedroom during a specific season at my home resort.  I was told that if the demand for a property went up, so would the points.  So for those who bought the $55,000 worth of points needed for a 2 bdrm ocean view at Ko Olina for the majority of the year, they may not be enough at some point if demand increases.  In addition, the points our units are currently worth may change as well.


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## wof45 (Dec 16, 2010)

llp479 said:


> We were told very clearly that there were two "point" pools, the trust and the legacy and never the two shall meet.  Two different people told us that, as well as tapped dancing around what I considered to be two very important questions.  I asked if the point values for a week would change.  For example, Disney guarantees that the points I own will always get me a week in a two bedroom during a specific season at my home resort.  I was told that if the demand for a property went up, so would the points.  So for those who bought the $55,000 worth of points needed for a 2 bdrm ocean view at Ko Olina for the majority of the year, they may not be enough at some point if demand increases.  In addition, the points our units are currently worth may change as well.



I'm not sure what the comment on the pools actually means.

But your questions are answered in the documents.  Points charts will be evaluated periodically and set to market demand -- so the points needed for some resort / weeks will go up, and the points needed for other resort weeks will go down.

Since you are also looking at enrolling, the points offered for turning in weeks will also be evaluated periodically and set to market demand -- so hope that the units that you are enrolling become or stay popular.


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## thinze3 (Dec 27, 2010)

*We do not need the trust inventory.*

Thank goodness it will take upteen years for the "trust" inventory to match the size of the "legacy" inventory. Think about it, there's probably less than 5% inventory in trust verses what Marriott has already sold in the last 16 years. This previously sold inventory converting to "legacy" points is what's making this whole system possible.

Legacy owners will be just fine.


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## windje2000 (Dec 27, 2010)

llp479 said:


> I was told that if the demand for a property went up, so would the points.  *So for those who bought the $55,000 worth of points needed for a 2 bdrm ocean view at Ko Olina for the majority of the year, they may not be enough at some point if demand increases.*  In addition, the points our units are currently worth may change as well.



I believe the bolded part of your post is wrong.  

From the documents - (I apologize for all caps - that's how it copied and pasted)




> IN THE EVENT POINT VALUES ARE CHANGED, NO TRUST OWNER WILL BE PREVENTED FROM USING THE ACCOMMODATIONS IN THE SAME MANNER AS WAS PROVIDED FOR UNDER THE ORIGINAL PURCHASE CONTRACT.



I take this to mean one is locked into existing points prices when one buys points, much as a weeks owner is entitled to a week when he/she buys a week.

If someone buys $55,000 in points for a specific occupancy, that price (in points) would appear to be locked in.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 27, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> I believe the bolded part of your post is wrong.
> 
> From the documents - (I apologize for all caps - that's how it copied and pasted)
> 
> ...



I don't know if this is accurate. Marriott would never write something as restrictive as you are interpereting in to their documents. Raising points across the board may not be possible but reallocating points based on demand would be fine. I don't see where reallocation of points would prevent the point owners from using the accommodation in the same manner. Sure they may not be able to stay at the same time of year, but as long as they can get the same number of days all should be good.


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## windje2000 (Dec 27, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I don't know if this is accurate. Marriott would never write something as restrictive as you are interpereting in to their documents. Raising points across the board may not be possible but reallocating points based on demand would be fine. I don't see where reallocation of points would prevent the point owners from using the accommodation in the same manner. Sure they may not be able to stay at the same time of year, but as long as they can get the same number of days all should be good.




Here's the whole quote and here's the LINK  (Bottom of Table of Contents Page )



> 1. UNLESS OTHERWISE PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, WITH RESPECT TO ANY ACCOMMODATION, NO CHANGE EXCEEDING TEN PERCENT (10%) PER ANNUM IN THE MANNER IN WHICH POINT VALUES MAY BE USED MAY BE MADE WITHOUT
> THE ASSENT OF AT LEAST TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT (25%) OF THE VOTING POWER OF THE ASSOCIATION OTHER THAN THE DEVELOPER.
> 2. NO TRUST OWNER WILL BE PREVENTED FROM USING THE TRUST PLAN AS A RESULT OF CHANGES IN THE MANNER IN WHICH POINT VALUES MAY BE USED.
> 3. *IN THE EVENT POINT VALUES ARE CHANGED, NO TRUST OWNER WILL BE PREVENTED FROM USING THE ACCOMMODATIONS IN THE SAME MANNER AS WAS PROVIDED FOR UNDER THE ORIGINAL PURCHASE CONTRACT.*
> ...



I don't believe my interpretation is incorrect.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 27, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Here's the whole quote and here's the LINK  (Bottom of Table of Contents Page )
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe my interpretation is incorrect.



However, items 1, 2 and 4 clearly indicate that point values can change. In fact, item 1 indicates that they can change up to 10% without an ownership vote.

Item 3 indicates that change in point values won't prevent the owner from using the accommodations in the same manner as set forth in the contract. I don't think there would be anything in the contract that indicates that an owner is able to get x days at y time of year at z resort. The item just indicates that they must be able to use them in the same manner (ie, using points as vacation currency).


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## GreenEyedGuru (Dec 28, 2010)

Eli Mairs said:


> At our recent presentation at Lakeshore Reserve, the sales rep said that they are no longer on commission. They are all on salary. If this is true, it may be lack of information rather than fear factor, and they shouldn't be too concerned about sealing the deal, other than receiving plaques and awards.



highly highly highly doubt this is true.  good sales people aren't going to stick around at a job that doesn't have commissions.  most likely a tactic aimed at garnering trust.


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## windje2000 (Dec 28, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> However, items 1, 2 and 4 clearly indicate that point values can change. In fact, item 1 indicates that they can change up to 10% without an ownership vote.
> 
> Item 3 indicates that change in point values won't prevent the owner from using the accommodations in the same manner as set forth in the contract. I don't think there would be anything in the contract that indicates that an owner is able to get x days at y time of year at z resort. The item just indicates that they must be able to use them in the same manner (ie, using points as vacation currency).



I believe the contract incorporates the point chart (the one in existence as of the date of the contract) by reference.  

The antecedent clause of item three





> IN THE EVENT POINT VALUES ARE CHANGED


 certainly suggests (at least to me) that 'the same manner' means exactly that - 


the same number of points buys
the same resort, for
the same season, with
the same view.
As long as you own the points.  

That's the same deal as your week -- it buys those attributes.

Item 4 begins with 





> Subject to the limitations in items 1 through 3 above, the Points requirements set forth on this Points Schedule are subject to change


 which would certainly indicate that item three is a limitation on change.  Item three would appear to trump item one.

It would equitable (and may well be a legal requirement under so called blue sky laws to which the land trust may be subject) that a points owner would be protected from 'dilution' in the trust.

What more interesting to me is the question of what point schedule would be used if you sell the points, and the buyer manages to join the DClub.  Would the buyer's point schedule be 

1.  the 'grandfathered' points schedule of the original purchaser or 

2.  the one in existence at the time of the enrollment of the new points owner into DClub?


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## dioxide45 (Dec 28, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> I believe the contract incorporates the point chart (the one in existence as of the date of the contract) by reference.



It is likely there by reference, but only by reference. Point values would not be mentioned in the contract. By referencing the point schedule, it wouldn't cause Marriott to be bound to those same values forever.

Since we can't see the Trust point contract, we really don't know. Though it is likely that it mentions that the buyer can use accommodation based on the point schedule in effect at the time of the reservation/use year.



> The antecedent clause of item three certainly suggests (at least to me) that 'the same manner' means exactly that -
> 
> 
> the same number of points buys
> ...



Why even write item 1 in then?



> It would equitable (and may well be a legal requirement under so called blue sky laws to which the land trust may be subject) that a points owner would be protected from 'dilution' in the trust.



Reallocating points across a resort or across all the trust resorts wouldn't dilute the trust. I agree that they are restricted from arbitrarily raiding points values across the board. However, if for some reason May in Orlando becomes very high in demand and Christmas demand plummets, the documents permit Marriott to take points that are needed to book Christmas and move them to make it more expensive to book May. Marriott has not taken away the trust owners ability to use the accommodation in the same manner as was in the contract.



> What more interesting to me is the question of what point schedule would be used if you sell the points, and the buyer manages to join the DClub.  Would the buyer's point schedule be
> 
> 1.  the 'grandfathered' points schedule of the original purchaser or
> 
> 2.  the one in existence at the time of the enrollment of the new points owner into DClub?



It would be whatever point schedule is in effect at the time of reservation for the use year being reserved. They won't have different owners using different schedules. That would be a logistical nightmare.


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## windje2000 (Dec 29, 2010)

I'll see if I can get a copy of the points contract(s) agreement(s) - I've got an upcoming stay at a Marriott timeshare.


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## windje2000 (Jan 18, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> Since we can't see the Trust point contract, we really don't know.



Well, I got copies of the documents provided to points purchasers at my last stay.  The darn things are pdf's comprised of images of the document pages, so one can't copy and paste text from them.  

So I took the images of the four pages that are relevant to the issue.

Here's what Section III, Par.3, SubPar. (a.) - (c.) of the Public Offering Statement for the Trust says regarding 'demand balancing':  (Click the thumbnails for the full sized images)

Page 3 -->

 Page 4 -->

 Page 5 -->

 Page 6 -->

 

*Dioxide - you are absolutely correct* - they can change the points required for any occupancy as long as they don't change the points for a year, excluding changes attributable to the number of weekends in the year, leaps years, etc.  

So if you buy enough points for a specific stay at a specific resort, there's no guarantee that points allocation won't be raised in the future.  Of course, they must lower it for some other time during the year - most likely exactly when you do not want to go.

Dioxide - Shoot me a PM if you want a copy of these docs.  I'll be happy to forward them to you.  The Public Offering Statement is 21MB. If your mailbox won't accept a file that big I can up it to a filesharing service and forward the link.


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## wof45 (Jan 18, 2011)

that is the way I have always read the document.

The total number of DC points for purchase is always the same, but they might be shuffled between times and resorts as long as the total remains the same.

A buyer of resale points does not actually need to join the DC club.  They are entitled to make points reservations at 4 months, I believe, but cannot do any of the other DC club items -- pretty much like the other current thread on what Disney did with resales on their club.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 18, 2011)

I don't see anything in the documents limiting the trust to only demand balance within specific resorts. It seems that they have the ability to demand balance across the trust. So if they find that Hawaii weeks fall out of favor and Orlando weeks are heavy in demand, they can allocate points away from Hawaii and add them to Orlando.



wof45 said:


> that is the way I have always read the document.
> 
> The total number of DC points for purchase is always the same, but they might be shuffled between times and resorts as long as the total remains the same.
> 
> A buyer of resale points does not actually need to join the DC club.  They are entitled to make points reservations at 4 months, I believe, but cannot do any of the other DC club items -- pretty much like the other current thread on what Disney did with resales on their club.



I thought resale buyers could only reserve at the 60 day window without joining DC Club. I also don't think they have access to exchange inventory since they wouldn't be members of the exchange company.


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