# A little info on Grand Mayan please...



## dqdude (Mar 28, 2011)

I am a GM owner that hasn't used my units for 3 years....I have either traded or not used them.  Lucky me...my contract allows me to not pay mf's unless I use.  

Anyway...since I haven't been to any of the resorts or "updates" I am kind of clueless about all the new stuff going on.  It sounds like my "elite" level GM unit is not so elite anymore!   Grand Bliss and Grand Luxxe have moved ahead.  

So what are the major changes?
How will I be affected by these new buildings...if at all?

Any info is appreciated.  I am a creature of habit and like things the way they were at GM.  I will be staying in Riviera Maya in Novemeber and don't want any surprises!

Thanks ahead of time...


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## Karen G (Mar 28, 2011)

There are a number of TUG reviews  here.


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## mikenk (Mar 28, 2011)

I understand the issue; the Grand mayan system is growing rapidly and they are continually changing their minds on priorities.

The good news is that the GM is the same as always with the same service and same amenities; you won't notice anything different at all except the grounds and foliage has really filled out. The Grand Luxxe is off in the jungle and is great in its own way, but you will see no impact at all.

If you choose to take the upgrade presentation, then it will be highly confusing as to all the offerings. I would advise skipping that unless you might be interested in upgrading; if so do your homework before.

Mike


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## dqdude (Mar 28, 2011)

Thanks Mike...

I am not planning on upgrading nor will I be attending a presentation. 

I was just curious as to the effect...if any....on the GM.






mikenk said:


> I understand the issue; the Grand mayan system is growing rapidly and they are continually changing their minds on priorities.
> 
> The good news is that the GM is the same as always with the same service and same amenities; you won't notice anything different at all except the grounds and foliage has really filled out. The Grand Luxxe is off in the jungle and is great in its own way, but you will see no impact at all.
> 
> ...


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## DeniseM (Mar 28, 2011)

Before the evening is over, someone is going to come along and tell you that you are crazy if you don't upgrade to the Grand Luxxe - brace yourself!


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## mikenk (Mar 29, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Before the evening is over, someone is going to come along and tell you that you are crazy if you don't upgrade to the Grand Luxxe - brace yourself!



Actually, I doubt it. Just be firm at check in that you don't want to attend any presentations; nobody should bother you after that - at least, that has been my experience. We had a complete wedding party checking in awhile back; I asked that no one be approached for a sales presentation and no one was.

Mike


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## toby9116 (Mar 29, 2011)

*unofficial sales staff*

I think DeniseM is referring to the unofficial sales staff on TUG. The Grand Luxe cheerleaders.


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## mikenk (Mar 29, 2011)

pkfox said:


> I think DeniseM is referring to the unofficial sales staff on TUG. The Grand Luxe cheerleaders.



i doubt that either. i don't ever remember a time that a Luxxe owner has suggested to a GM owner they should upgrade on this forum. i did because i wanted the free golf and a few other things; otherwise I would still be a Grand Mayan owner. Each level of the mayan resorts are highly customizable for individual goals which is the way it is supposed to be.

The OP wanted to know that his vacation value has not diminished by the addition of the new brands - and they have not.

Mike


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## pittle (Mar 29, 2011)

I think the GM will still be very special for a long time.  They are still practically new and really nice.  After-all, the first time we stayed in one was in Acapulco shortly after it opened in February 2004 and we were at Nuevo just after that one opened in early 2005 - the wave pool was not finished and they were just placing the teak lounge chairs around the other pool when we were upgraded to stay there. 

We own both Mayan Palace and Grand Mayan units and have basically what you have - no pay unless you go.  It works great for us and while I did go to an update meeting when I was in Acapulco in January, I did not see any need to make changes.  They were more interested in getting me to upgrade to a Grand Bliss than to a Luxxe.  Since we do not play golf, that was not an incentive for us like is for others.  For the cost of the increase in maintnenance fees, I can pay for my own massages.  I was not impressed with the Grand Bliss model that I saw.  The bedrooms now have smaller dressers - only 2 drawers.  The kitchen has 2 MP size refrigerators under the island instead of the larger refrigerator that the GM has.  The microwave was nicer.  The fabric on the furniture was a realy light color and will look dirty in no time.

We are very happy with what we have and seem to go the MP more than the GM.  We have not been to a GM since October 2009 and have stayed 3 weeks MP units in the past 4 months.  You just can't beat the PV Marina location and the new MP in Acapulco is very nice.  We generally use our GM weeks when we take family with us and need several units.

We also own other timeshares and have taken the advice of other TUG members - buy where you want to go!  We seldom use RCI or Interval any more.  With the no pay unless you go feature, we have more flexibility too.  If we can't travel as many weeks some year, we just go to the other resorts that we must pay m/f for.

Since you are not interested in upgrading, do not waste half a vacation day taking the owner's update.


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## dqdude (Mar 29, 2011)

Denise-

Now that is is funny! 

I have been reading other GM posts here...it seems you either love them or you hate them. 

I like GM just fine.  I have stayed at other resports in Mexioc and so far...no other resports compare.  My main concern is that the GM units are going to be reduced or that the GM grounds and amenities will be diminished...so that there is room for more Grand Luxxe/Bliss units.  I recall on my last trip to NV (3 years ago) that that there was talk about tearing down the older MP units and replacing them with higg-end units.  I also recall talk about replacing the unused buildings along the beach with luxurious height restricted units.  Since I haven't been back to NV since this talk...I have no idea what has actually been done.

Anyway....I am happy to hear that the GM is as I remember. 

Thanks to everyone for their input...much appreciated!


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## aliikai2 (Mar 29, 2011)

*Just back from Nuevo*

The older yellow and red buildings by the MP pool are gone, the Palpa between the GM and the MP is now where the GB has been built. The GB shares the GM pool. The Cafe Del Largo is now only open for breakfast. The restaurant at the south end of the MP pool is now the Puenta Arena and ahs great sea food. You can see some of the photos of the resorts on our site 
http://www.timeshareparadise.net/March 11 Grand Mayan.htm
The Luxxe is really something, not worth the additional fees or cost to us, but it is nice.

Greg



dqdude said:


> Denise-
> 
> Now that is is funny!
> 
> ...


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## Tropical lady (Mar 29, 2011)

*just agreeing.....*

I agree with do not go to an update/presentation unless you are interested in an upgrade, and if you plan to, do your homework before you go.
We upgraded early last year, but for a specific reason important to us.  We stayed at the GM Nuevo in Dec '10 and had a great time.  I would look forward to staying there again if there is no availability in the GL for the time frame we want.  You will not be disappointed.
We also declined a presentation and were not contacted after that. 
I agree with Mikenk that I can't remember a GB or GL owner suggesting one do an upgrade from/to any level.  Certainly owners are able to answer questions if asked to clarify an issue.


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## sally13 (Mar 29, 2011)

*Why NOT go to the update??*

we attend updates on every vacation!! We are always interested in the latest offers and plans...we have found they take no longer then 3 hours witch includes free breakfast buffet,about $300 . cash and a 10 to 15% discount off our total bill...A nice savings!! If you tell them at the start you will take their  great offer,but do NOT plan on upgrading,they are pretty good about the time part..If you get nasty or mean with them they act in turn..If you take the freeby ,by all means let the salesperson do their job....and that is to try to sell you....play the game!! ... 

Also grand luxxe IS a great product..as far as crazy...and betting go,I will leave that to the opinionated......

The Grupo Mayan company is a Top shelf outfit...They ALWAYS are giving owners MORE options as well as adding to unit choices..a rare business model in a sea of timeshares that are constantly taking away rights and charging more...not to mention letting units get WAY run down before upgrading...you will NOT find this at Grupo Mayan


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## DeniseM (Mar 29, 2011)

BINGO!  We have a winner!


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## mikenk (Mar 29, 2011)

I disagree with Sally; someone who is happy with what they have will just get frustrated and confused by the upgrade presentation. The OP with the Grand mayan and no MF unless they use has a pretty good deal. 

That said, like Sally, I always do the update presentation. I learn things and know enough to be in control. I do give up about about 2 hours not counting breakfast - no big deal. Grupo Vidanta is always offering new things to separate us from our money; that is fine as I am always looking for things to increase my vacation value - nice set up for negotiation. 

Mike


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## curtbrown (Mar 29, 2011)

dqdude said:


> My main concern is that the GM units are going to be reduced or that the GM grounds and amenities will be diminished...so that there is room for more Grand Luxxe/Bliss units.  I recall on my last trip to NV (3 years ago) that that there was talk about tearing down the older MP units and replacing them with higg-end units.  I also recall talk about replacing the unused buildings along the beach with luxurious height restricted units.  Since I haven't been back to NV since this talk...I have no idea what has actually been done.



I don't think I've heard anything about reducing the number of GM units or diminishing the GM grounds or amenities.  And, as others have said, the ocean front MP buildings were torn down - mostly to open up the ocean views for all of the new buildings that are being built behind them.  But they did build new "round" ends on the remaining MP building to help offset the loss of inventory (to open soon).  

I'm not sure which "unused buildings" you're speaking of.  I know they did tear down the "old Disco" building and an adjacent warehouse to build the Grand Bliss.  The Disco had been closed for some time, but it was located further from the beach, between the MP and the GM resorts.  Is that what you're referring to?

I also understand they recently opened a new MP bldg. and pool complex in Acapulco to add inventory for MP owners, so there is possibly more inventory available than in the past.  And since they are no longer selling any new MP contracts, and many of the original MP owners have upgraded over the years, I don't think there will be any increase of demand for MP in the coming years, so the loss of those 2 buildings in NV shouldn't be a problem. 

Other than the removal of those two MP bldgs. and the closed Disco, I don't believe the addition of the Grand Luxxe or the Grand Bliss will affect current MP or GM owners at all (other than the nuisance from the construction) .  As far as I can tell, the GM is every bit as nice as it's always been, and in my opinion, the grounds in front of the MP in NV are much improved with the addition of the new lagoons, boardwalks and newly planted foliage. 

Curt


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## PigsDad (Mar 29, 2011)

curtbrown said:


> Other than the removal of those two MP bldgs. and the closed Disco, *I don't believe the addition of the Grand Luxxe or the Grand Bliss will affect current MP or GM owners at all *


Well, I can certainly think of a way that the addition of the Grand Bliss and Grand Luxxe has negatively affected the GM owners:  *Over-crowding*.

The GM pool / lazy river / water park is fantastic, but the more units they build that have access to that area, the more crowded it gets.  Yes, the Grand Luxxe has their own pool, but anyone with kids would certainly rather spend the day in the GM pool complex.  And even if you didn't have kids, adults who wanted to participate in the fun activities would be at the GM pools, not the Luxxe pool.

Two weeks ago when I was there, I walked through the Luxxe pool area.  I honestly think the average age was 70+!  (I saw exactly _two _kids.)  It was not crowded at all.  At the GM pools, you had to play the "reserve your pool chair before 8 AM" game if you wanted a chance to spend anytime around the pools.

So if the OP was looking forward to the "elite" level of ownership that they were sold on originally, that gets diluted everytime they put up a new GB or GL building.

Kurt


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## mikenk (Mar 30, 2011)

Yes, overcrowding could be an issue with expansion at NV. However, if they would have built Grand Mayan units instead of luxxe units, it would have been worse as they are larger buildings. I assume Luxxe and GM people have equal access to pool chairs which to me is the critical point.

The problem at NV is that they made the GM water park so nice that all people migrate there. I will be there in a couple of weeks - will try and find out expansion plans for the pool areas.

I was in RM in January, there was no problem at all of overcrowding in the large Mayan Palace pools or the Grand Mayan ones. The Luxxe pools are still in construction. 

One note to the original poster at RM, due to height restrictions, the GM units are really spread out; Try for building 1 if possible. I am not sure how many units were there when you were last there.

Mike


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## sally13 (Mar 30, 2011)

*Denise...as far as...*

being a cheerleader cheer: )for grand luxxe ,or all mayan units,for that matter, I am guilty...as far as telling someone they are (crazy) for not buying one...I would NEVER say that.(YOU said THAT)

It is not EVIL, or STUPID,or WRONG to enjoy and love Grupo Vidanta's wonderfull resorts..people should NOT try to villify and slander these  great timeshare gems..actually there is something wrong with people who do...

Grand Luxxe is for folks that want the BEST of the best,and have the means to purchase that...it is that simple..

The product is (set up)  to keep people who think that( every timeshare should be a dollar) out of these units..

Is it wrong?? not in my opinion.

You  act as if it is wrong to tell folks that you are wonderfully satisfied with the great options grupo vidanta offers...THIS is wrong in my book.

If a resort is well run ,has GREAT unit choices for many types of vacationers,has a staff that is much more attentive and friendly (10 times more)then anything you will find in the states,has grounds like a botanical garden...whats not to cheerlead about?? 

As much as I try to share our great expierience with the Mayans,many others choose to try to tarnish their image as a resort overall because of a bad sales job....Do you think the sales staff should give a person a net value of 7 or 8 hundred bucks(not including salespersons base salary)and NOT try darn hard to make a sale???be real...If it were YOUR 7 or 8 hundred I bet you would be pulling fingernails...

besides..a positive report on timeshare is very much needed on these threads,witch mainly contain peoples disappointments and misery..

so as far as" BINGO'..Denise...BINGO yourself!!

I will also have to respectfully disagree with Mike..I think most folks who attend a sales meeting are smart enough to know their spending limits and can benefit by (playing the game)...it is just a few who sign on the dotted line and really have no common sense...these few come to tug to complain ,when it is their shortcomings that they should really be upset with...


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## curtbrown (Mar 30, 2011)

As far as the overcrowding at the pools - That has been a problem for years during the popular months, due mostly to people reserving lounges at 7:00AM, and only showing up around 10:00 or 11:00, and then leaving for lunch, only to come back around 2:00-3:00 to pick up their towel.  That's the real problem. It's not because of the GB or GL owners.  

I will agree that currently the problem may be made worse, particularly in NV, because there is no pool at all for the Grand Bliss owners.  Since they can't use the Grand Luxxe pools, they are forced to use the GM & MP pools.

However, it's my understanding that once the new GB & GL models are open on the top floor of the GB bldg., and once the new Sales Floor in the GB is fully functional, they will be tearing down the current GB & GL models out by the beach and they will build a new GB pool there, so the problem of too many people and not enough lounges should be a temporary situation.  I also understand that as new GL buildings are built, there will be more GL pools being built as well.

As far as the average age around the GL pool being 71+, I'm sure you are exaggerating to try to make your point.  However, exactly what demographic do you think is buying into the GL?   It's not young families.  I don't think there are a lot of kids staying there in the first place.  To say that they are crowding you out of the GM pools is ridiculous.  When I walked through the GM pool complex last December, I didn't see a long line of 70-year-olds waiting their turn for the waterslide.  Nor were they hogging all the tubes in the Lazy River, or playing in the surf in the wave pools.  No... they were out on the golf course enjoying the rounds of golf that they purchased as part of their ownership. 

Just my $0.02

Curt


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## PigsDad (Mar 30, 2011)

curtbrown said:


> However, exactly what demographic do you think is buying into the GL?   It's not young families.  I don't think there are a lot of kids staying there in the first place.  *To say that they are crowding you out of the GM pools is ridiculous.*  When I walked through the GM pool complex last December, I didn't see a long line of 70-year-olds waiting their turn for the waterslide.  Nor were they hogging all the tubes in the Lazy River, or playing in the surf in the wave pools.  No... they were out on the golf course enjoying the rounds of golf that they purchased as part of their ownership.


It was easy to spot the numerous Grand Luxxe owners in the GM pool areas due to the color of their wrist band (the same color I saw everyone wearing in the GL pool area when I accidently walked through it trying to find my way back to the GM).  Trust me, they were not all out playing their free rounds of golf.  

I think there were plenty of families staying at the GL -- maybe not owners, but staying w/ the owners (think:  grandparents, etc.).  But my point of the average age at the GL pools was that almost all of those younger families head to the GM pools.  How can you say that does _not _have an over-crowding affect on the GM pools???

Kurt


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## rpennisi (Mar 31, 2011)

We stayed for 2 weeks at the GM in Riviera Maya, returning earlier this Month.  There is one small take away from the GM to the GL.  In the Sanctuary pool complex of the GM, one section had a sign stating that it was for GL owners only.  I am assuming this will be changed once the GL pools are finished.
Ron


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## lily28 (Mar 31, 2011)

does the grand mayan at the riviera maya has the lazy river too?  thanks


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## Tropical lady (Mar 31, 2011)

Ron,
The reserved space at the GM pool is just until the GL pool is completed.  I'm not sure that was necessary in the short term, but I guess they felt compelled to have some space exclusive for GL owners.  This was at the same time we upgraded to GL from GB last April.
Lily28,
The lazy river has been "almost" completed since we first purchased in 2007.  Since we have enjoyed it so much at Nuevo, I'm not sure why the delay at RM.  But the configuration of the GL units and Ocean Breeze out by the highway may have impacted on their design for the area?


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## pittle (Mar 31, 2011)

lily28 said:


> does the grand mayan at the riviera maya has the lazy river too?  thanks



Not yet - a lazy river has been under construction for quite some time near the not yet opened near the Mayan Palace units at this resort.  Even without the lasy river, it is an awesome resort.


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## wptamo (Mar 31, 2011)

Hiya, I hope this isn't off topic.. but I'm wondering about the future of Mayan Palace? We never upgraded to GM.. will they keep their inventory up? will they phase us out? We are actually going to GM at Mayan Riviera this summer, first time back to Mex in 5 years!  I deposited my week then used points to go GM... I was surprised it was the same point cost!!! We first bought in 2003 at MP Mayan Riviera and took the GM tour and were very impressed... 
I guess a lot has changed in 8 years!!
The sales presentation... I guess they will try to hit us up for one... I'm on the fence about that... sure I'd like the discounts and freebies , and learn what is new.. but can't / will not purchase...

Any info on future of MP would be welcomed..
And do they still offer a free shuttle from airport to resort?

thanks,

Paul


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## rpennisi (Apr 1, 2011)

Tropical lady said:


> The lazy river has been "almost" completed since we first purchased in 2007.  Since we have enjoyed it so much at Nuevo, I'm not sure why the delay at RM.  But the configuration of the GL units and Ocean Breeze out by the highway may have impacted on their design for the area?


I think the lazy river was going to be for the never finished MP complex.  They completed buildings 1-21.  Then, they started another 10 or so MP's, and a lazy river, but never completed the project, I am assuming because they switched to selling B, GB and GL.  The models in the "snake pit" still show the old version of the complex.
Ron


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## wptamo (Apr 1, 2011)

Hiya, found my answer to the shuttle service...

Next question. .I recall that Groupo Mayan was planning to purchase a resort stateside, or partner up with one... they asked us to vote for Orlando, Vegas & Hawaii ... did that go anywhere? or did it drop off with the economic downturn?
Just curious...

thanks...

WPT


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## MuranoJo (Apr 1, 2011)

wptamo said:


> Hiya, I hope this isn't off topic.. but I'm wondering about the future of Mayan Palace? We never upgraded to GM.. will they keep their inventory up? will they phase us out? We are actually going to GM at Mayan Riviera this summer, first time back to Mex in 5 years!  I deposited my week then used points to go GM... I was surprised it was the same point cost!!! We first bought in 2003 at MP Mayan Riviera and took the GM tour and were very impressed...
> I guess a lot has changed in 8 years!!
> The sales presentation... I guess they will try to hit us up for one... I'm on the fence about that... sure I'd like the discounts and freebies , and learn what is new.. but can't / will not purchase...
> 
> ...



Paul, I am pretty sure they still offer the free shuttle from the airport to the resort for exchangers.  But I'd double-check with RCI if you don't hear from them.  Personally, I'd just as soon take my own cab and not deal with the shuttle.

As far as the future of MP, everything I've seen or heard from all levels of owners is units will still be available.  I wouldn't trust what a salesperson told me, but I'd check in with Customer Service with questions.


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## rpennisi (Apr 1, 2011)

wptamo said:


> Hiya, I hope this isn't off topic.. but I'm wondering about the future of Mayan Palace? We never upgraded to GM.. will they keep their inventory up? will they phase us out? We are actually going to GM at Mayan Riviera this summer, first time back to Mex in 5 years!  I deposited my week then used points to go GM... I was surprised it was the same point cost!!! We first bought in 2003 at MP Mayan Riviera and took the GM tour and were very impressed...
> I guess a lot has changed in 8 years!!
> The sales presentation... I guess they will try to hit us up for one... I'm on the fence about that... sure I'd like the discounts and freebies , and learn what is new.. but can't / will not purchase...
> 
> ...


The Mayan Palace is not going away, but is being, in some locations (NV and Acapulco) moved a bit away from the beach.  BTW, we too were in the MP at RM in 2003 when they were just building the GM and the MP only went to (I think) building 8.  You will be amazed at how much all has changed and grown, although the MP pool and the area around it (Cafe del Lago and the main building behind the pool) are much the same.  Enjoy.
Ron


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## mikenk (Apr 1, 2011)

wptamo said:


> Next question. .I recall that Groupo Mayan was planning to purchase a resort stateside, or partner up with one... they asked us to vote for Orlando, Vegas & Hawaii ... did that go anywhere? or did it drop off with the economic downturn?
> Just curious...
> 
> thanks...
> ...



I think all those are still on the back burner. They generally only expand when they have cash to do so; now the expansion direction seems to filling out the existing sites with Grand Luxxe and Grand Bliss units. However, they have a habit of changing priorities quickly.

I do believe they have a goal of phasing out Mayan Palace over time due to natural attrition to the other brands. I am sure they will keep inventory for existing owners. The Bliss brand was supposed to be an upgrade to the Mayan Palace; I believe it has been scrapped due to poor sales.

Regarding the owner's update. Here's a question for you? Is there any amount you would pay to upgrade to the Grand Mayan? If so, research resale (ebay if possible) to see what they are selling for (including transfer fee); I haven't looked recently; then go to the update armed with that knowledge. However, if you are not interested in an upgrade at any cost, I would skip the update as they really want to move you up - it will not be worth the time if no price will do so. If you do go, remember that anything they say that does not make it's way into the contract is pure fiction and you have 5 days to study the contract.

Mike


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## wptamo (Apr 1, 2011)

thanks All!!!

good point Mike... I'll skip the presentation... I have a few other TS weeks etc.. I don't see the need to upgrade as long as I can use my points account to get into GM even if I have a MP week. 

thanks all

looking forward to going back to Mayan Riviera


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## pittle (Apr 1, 2011)

I think the Mayan Palace will be around for a while and am counting on it since we own 4 MP weeks.  We went to the new Mayan Palace in Acapulco in January and it was great.  It had a great pool, really nice lazy river, and a great kids waterpark play area that is similar to the one at the GM in NV.  It did not have the wave pool or big waterslide.  It is over close to the entrance to the resort and not on the beach, but they ran continuous shuttles to the GM and we spent most days under a palapa on the beach.  They tower building is going to have some MP units in it and some balconies looked the size of the GM ones.  They are building the Grand Bliss in the space where the 2 one-bedroom buildings were.  They are taking out the waterpark in Acapulco and will put the Grand Luxxe there.  The property will be full for sure and the MP over by the golf course may be appreciated even more.

I did do the update meeting when in Acapulco in January.  We did not get any big discounts for taking it.  Breakfast and 10% off our room charges which did not amount to much.  Since we own both MP & GM weeks, they wanted us to upgrade to Grand Bliss. They wanted more $$$ than I wanted to pay to upgrade us to 4 Grand Bliss weeks.  The contract date starts totally over and we were going to get 2 fewer weeks each year.  The new m/f were higher too - just about the same as the 6 weeks that we already have!  I passed on that opportunity.  We also have the no pay unless you go on our contracts, so that was not a big selling point.  They tried to show me how much I would save buy not having to pay the 5 year renovation fees, but I had already done that math assuming m/f would go up annually and thought their numbers were inflated. If you chose to go to the update, just go in prepared.  We are in our 60's and do not want to have more long-term commitments.  By the time our GM weeks are up for the 25 year renewal in 2031, we will probably be traveling less and do not plan to renew.  

Mikenk brought up a good suggestion about reasearching the prices. I saw a 2 bedroom GM that was a 2 week contract (+ 2 VF weeks) sell for about $6500 including the transfer fees and closing a couple of weeks ago on eBay.  Great deal for someone as the first people probably paid about $60,000. When you own MP weeks and go to the meeting, they try to upgrade you to GM.  

RM has a bunch of MP units and there looks like 14 buildings have not opened yet (the white ones on the right side of this map).  See the Google Map here.
You can see the outline of the lazy river in this photo too.  It was taken in 2009.


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## sally13 (Apr 1, 2011)

*Phyllis...*

hello! ...

looking at your map of Riviera Maya it is hard to tell where they put the new luxxe tower...

another thought is about grand bliss placement...

do you think they might take the first few mayan palace buildings and do a tear down to create new room  for the G, Bliss??with better proximity to the pools and ocean??

Seems logical...

I can not see the advantage of having G.Bliss so far from everything as previously stated..

When G Luxxe is sold out..witch we are not far from,the sales push will go back to G.Bliss and the Bliss units witch are around the lazy river....JMHO..

What do you think??


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## pittle (Apr 1, 2011)

sally13 said:


> hello! ...
> 
> looking at your map of Riviera Maya it is hard to tell where they put the new luxxe tower...
> 
> ...



Sally - The map photo was taken before they started building the Luxxe units.   I read somewhere that the Grand Luxxe is in the jungle area near the ocean near the Havana Moon restaurant.   I also have heard that the Grand Bliss is going to be over on the side by the Grand Mayans.  I saw a map with the "long term plan" on it somewhere.   

My personal opinion is that they can use the MP buildings that have not opened and decorate them with Bliss furnishings and call them Bliss.  That is pretty much what they did for Mayan Palace Regency.  If you look at the RCI listing for the new one in Acapulco and the one in Mazatlan, they say Mayan Palace Regency, BUT, the sign just says Mayan Palace.  I have stayed in both, and they are just MP.  As far as I can tell, the MPR & Bliss are MP units with some kind of "fringe benefits."  Just my Opinion.  I kind of think the same thing about the GM & GB.

I don't think they will tear down the MP units near the pool while they still have lots of land and can build more pools around new buildings.  They tore down the buildings in Acapulco because they were really old, but the ones in the Mayan Riviera are not that old - less than 10 years for the oldest ones.  But who knows - they change their minds all the time!


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## sally13 (Apr 1, 2011)

*thanks Phyllis...*

I just don't think that they will have enough sales draw if the Grand Bliss is behind the existing grand mayans... the Luxxe units are so limited in number,they will be sold to their limit soon....Is that the end of the big sales push??

I think as long as they can build ,with an angle to sell,they will...

We were told the R.Maya Grand Bliss was to be ocean front..(in front of the Grand Mayan)on the beach where the models are..thats why we did the upgrade,as R.Maya is the place we love to go..

Now Mike says they will be (Behind) the grand mayans...Wheres the incentive to upgrade from grand mayan???

we stayed in N,Vallarta.and thats where are contract says are unit is,(all ocean front)

could be that was the sales (wiggle) 

Oh well,we will be down there next month and I will update after I raise hell..


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## pittle (Apr 1, 2011)

Click here to see the map that I added of the Riviera Maya from one of the booklets you get when you go there.  It is the last picture and shows where the Grand Luxxe is and at the time the Grand Bliss was not on the horizon, so these may be where it says "future Grand Mayans" and you see the future Mayan Palace buildings and lazy river mentioned.   The beach area says that it is reserved for full ownership residents that have condos across the highway.


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## rpennisi (Apr 1, 2011)

*site of the Grand Bliss*

When we were staying in the GM building 8/9 in March, I watched them clearing the "jungle" behind (south) for the GB.  I can't see how the GB could ever be on the beach.  I heard people say the sales staff told them the view would be as it is in the models.  This is untrue as none of the levels: OB, MP, GM, GB or GL have or will have that kind of view.  To believe so is folly.  The views from the models are spectacular, but not reality.  The GB in RM will have an existing community of homes between it and the ocean.
The GB in NV has an ocean view (on one side), but it is not on the ocean either.  If you want an ocean view and ocean front, you have to go to the SG/OB in NV or get into the Punta's Mansions of the World when it is completed.  GL buildings are getting farther away from the ocean as they continue building behind (west) of GL 1.


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## sally13 (Apr 1, 2011)

*well...*

we were in N vallarta last year..The bliss was almost completed..It has almost 300 degrees of ocean view...some bay of banderas some river /mountain/small ocean bay view...I do not know WHAT you think is the GRAND BLISS building???

Sally the Whiner....not whining...


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## Tropical lady (Apr 2, 2011)

Sally,
Ron was speaking of RM where there is no GB yet and where it looks like it will be built.  If what he describes is accurate, I would be disappointed if we still had our GB contract.  We "were" told, as we stood in the oceanfront models, that the Bliss, GB, and Luxxe would be the closest to the ocean when built.  In fact, we understood, or misunderstood, that the buildings would be a mix of all of these, similar to the model, with the large outdoor common area.
There is no Bliss in Nuevo.  There is a GB now being occupied, between the GM and MP.  In fact we were told in Dec that the Bliss is not selling and has been put on hold.  Others have posted that also. So they will have to do something for those who hold Bliss contracts.


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## rpennisi (Apr 2, 2011)

Sally,
You have your Mexican coasts mixed up.  Also, there is no Bliss east or west coast, and the only current Grand Bliss is in Nuevo Vallarta.
Tropical Lady,
I believe the sales staff lied (mislead is that is more politically correct) as to the mixed use buildings.  Last year, when I asked at the NV MP if the new rounded ends of the MP would be Bliss units, they said it would be very difficult to service two different levels in the same building.  There were some blog comments about using some floors of the GM buildings 1-7 in RM for GB, but never saw that again.  Anyone else see that?
Ron


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## Tropical lady (Apr 2, 2011)

Ron, I stated that we may have misunderstood that the levels would be mixed in one building.  I did not imply that we were given lies.  I guess my cup is half full about these things and I'm not so quick to jump to the negative unless I know for sure.
While I did not see or know that some floors of GM might be used for GB, it would be no different than in Nuevo the use of GB or GM for GL until availability cathches up.  In Nuevo, could not get into the GL or GB for the time period we wanted and went to the GM.....loved it....no problema!


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## Sponge (Apr 2, 2011)

Tropical lady said:


> In Nuevo, could not get into the GL or GB for the time period we wanted and went to the GM.....loved it....no problema!



When we were in Acapulco staying at the Grand Mayan on an RCI exchange Feb.2010. We met a nice couple that were (suckers) I mean owners that had upgraded to the Grand Luxxe they were staying in a 1 bedroom Mayan Palace unit that was lower than ground level ???? They couldn't figrure out why we not owners had better accomidations then they did as owners. I think these buildings are now torn down. Some people just want to keep throwing money at these people and are mad when they can't get what they want. !!! Or  get what they think they paid for.


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## mikenk (Apr 3, 2011)

Sponge said:


> When we were in Acapulco staying at the Grand Mayan on an RCI exchange Feb.2010. We met a nice couple that were (suckers) I mean owners that had upgraded to the Grand Luxxe they were staying in a 1 bedroom Mayan Palace unit that was lower than ground level ???? They couldn't figrure out why we not owners had better accomidations then they did as owners. I think these buildings are now torn down. Some people just want to keep throwing money at these people and are mad when they can't get what they want. !!! Or  get what they think they paid for.



I agree that was not fair; someone screwed up. It also seems strange that they would have traded into the Mayan Palace. That has not been our experience, twice we chose to go to the GM at Cabo and got the best locations both times. In addition, we still got all our golf, internet, and massages free. Actually, with all things understood, I don't see myself as the "sucker" that you perceive me to be. 

Ron, in Cabo, they did convert a unit into a Grand Bliss model as a sales model; so it is possible to mix the Grand Bliss in with the Grand Mayan units - but I doubt they will do that unless there is a huge upgrade sales volume to the GB. We did upgrade to the GB to get the free golf as it was not a lot of cost to do so; however, for non golfers, I'm not sure it is worth it since the GM units already have the premier locations with regard to the pools and the GL buildings will probably get the closest to the Ocean. There is only so much prime building space. It seems that the GB is stuck in the middle; it is also not clear whether they will be getting any of their own pool areas as the GL units get.

Mike


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## Tropical lady (Apr 3, 2011)

*hummmmmm......*

Sponge,
These "suckers" (owners) as you put it......such a pleasing reference to someone.....had to agree to the downgrade.  When we went to the GM due to no availability (made reservations on short notice), we had to agree in writing for the GM accommodations. If you downgrade, you also get more units, ie 3 for 2, 2 for 1, etc.  So there is compensation and full knowledge of where you would be.  Even so, we were treated with special check in, all the GL benefits, and prime location without asking.  I don't think you got the full story.  If this did happen to them, that was not right, but I certainly would have been in front of customer service getting a better location.
In addition, "throwing money at these people" has purchased great vacations for us.  You had to have "thrown money" to someone sometime for your timeshares!


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## mikenk (Apr 3, 2011)

Upon reflection, I think it is a real shame that so many discussions regarding the Mayan resorts go negative. While there is plenty of things I would like to see changed in the Mayan system, they have a different ownership model that has a lot of positives. In a nutshell, instead of upfront dollars for lodging and an forever obligatory MF, it is upfront dollars for lodging and a bunch of other amenities for a MF only if you use. What's a better deal? It depends on the dollars and personal interests.

If someone starts a discussion with "I disagree, let's discuss rationally" then I am all in. When they start it with "Hey sucker, here is the way it is", then I admit, I both take it somewhat personally and choose to discount anything that person has to say.

I wish people would think how others' would react before they post. 

My 2 cents,
Mike


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## CatLovers (Apr 3, 2011)

mikenk said:


> In a nutshell, instead of upfront dollars for lodging and an forever obligatory MF, it is upfront dollars for lodging and a bunch of other amenities for a MF only if you use.



My concern with such a model is that it assumes that there will always be new people buying into the system who will fund the ongoing maintenance of existing properties.  Existing properties need to be maintained, and if people start choosing not to "use" (due to economic or other environmental circumstances) AND new people stop buying into the system (for the same or different reasons), you have the potential for the whole house of cards to come tumbling down.  Sort of a reverse Ponzi scheme, if you will.

When we attended the "timeshare presentation from hell" at GM NV, the sales weasels quite proudly told us: we don't want you to use your week because that leaves more weeks available for us to use for marketing purposes (translation: we put them into the RCI pool and fresh unsuspecting blood walks in the door!).  There has to be a sufficient ongoing asset capitalization base for the system to keep working.  But ... IF an overwhelming majority don't use their weeks AND the injection of new sales dollars dry up, then what?  Oh, but wait ... apparently a lot of people do end up buying   (and if you do a quick search on the Internet, also regretting their purchase  ).

I guess only time will tell ... given that there are a few TUGgers who have invested in GM properties, I hope that my perspective on this situation will not come true!


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## Karen G (Apr 3, 2011)

mikenk said:


> In a nutshell, instead of upfront dollars for lodging and an forever obligatory MF, it is upfront dollars for lodging and a bunch of other amenities for a MF only if you use. What's a better deal?


 To me, that doesn't seem like such a good deal:  Pay a big price to the developer and then don't use the property. OR pay a big price to the developer and pay a MF to use it.  A better deal would be to buy resale for a considerably lower initial price and then pay a MF to use it.




mikenk said:


> If someone starts a discussion with "I disagree, let's discuss rationally" then I am all in. When they start it with "Hey sucker, here is the way it is", then I admit, I both take it somewhat personally and choose to discount anything that person has to say


The problem seems to be that you see only your side of the issue as being rational. Anyone who has had a different or negative experience to yours is irrational and you are offended by it.  I don't think anyone has started their post with "Hey, sucker." If they did, would it make it any better for you if they started with "Here's what happened to me and here's how I see it."


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## Tropical lady (Apr 3, 2011)

It is interesting that a sales model (aka timeshare from hell with sales weazels), so far, uses the concept of "no mandatory MF unless you use" and appears successful.  They also waived the MF's for EVERYONE (whether in the contract or not) in 2009 due to the economic crunch.  Obviously this would not be going on if financials were not in good status.  They also have real estate development, airport facilities and other enterprises.  Maybe their diversification is the advantage.
As for the closing comment about buying and regretting purchase, we are not alone when I read about Shell and other timeshare companies.  Sales do not reflect the resorts, whatever company is involved.


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## mikenk (Apr 3, 2011)

CatLovers said:


> My concern with such a model is that it assumes that there will always be new people buying into the system who will fund the ongoing maintenance of existing properties.  Existing properties need to be maintained, and if people start choosing not to "use" (due to economic or other environmental circumstances) AND new people stop buying into the system (for the same or different reasons), you have the potential for the whole house of cards to come tumbling down.  Sort of a reverse Ponzi scheme, if you will.



That is certainly a possibility. Even so, with my current rate of using, within 5 years, I will have paid back my investment.

However, consider this. Timeshares in general have one source of revenue - maintenance fees. That has to fund maintenance and renovation. Most are struggling to do so as I think the model is fundamentally flawed. We go with friends to many that are embarrassingly run down. On the other hand, major hotel resorts have a different model - rental to the public and income on all the resort amenities. The best managed do quite well without any MF's at all. 

The GM model does all for income - direct rentals, money from exchangers, from resort amenities, from sales, and from maintenance fees. They are also mostly cash based so they are not laden with debt. This model does raise a balancing act to keep the owners happy while catering to renters which is my main complaint but I understand and accept the problem.  BTW, initial purchasers and people who buy resale will mostly have mandatory MF's. 

Because of the high pressure and volume, there will always be people who regret buying. However if you look around, you will also notice that there are hoards of people who want out of their timeshares everywhere and are even willing to pay people to dump them.

Regardless what the future holds, I see no way to financially justify a timeshare with obligatory MF's even if purchased for $1. That is a debt not a vacation deal. I am much more comfortable with the idea of prepaying money up front for vacation amenities I will be using regardless where I go. 

Mike


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## Tropical lady (Apr 3, 2011)

*opinions....*

Karen,
Absolutely it makes a difference to the conversation between using rude remarks to bolster your point and "here's what happened and how I see it", to use your words.  I certainly can see where Mike was using that as an example, not verbatim, but is not far off some of the comments used.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some feel the need to be insulting and "go for the jugular" and that's where a potentially good dialogue goes down hill.
Maybe it is easier to not consider another's feelings because it is anonymous and not face to face.
I think it is better to not have that mandatory bill.  We would not have bought if this was not offered. I agree that it would not make sense to buy and not use, but still.....no more money out of pocket!!
I think for those of us who know the program and try to state the facts against assumptions made, it is interpreted as not seeing the other view point.  Wrong.....all viewpoints welcome, but wouldn't you want to know if you had incorrect information about something?


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## pittle (Apr 3, 2011)

Sponge said:


> When we were in Acapulco staying at the Grand Mayan on an RCI exchange Feb.2010. We met a nice couple that were (suckers) I mean owners that had upgraded to the Grand Luxxe they were staying in a 1 bedroom Mayan Palace unit that was lower than ground level ???? They couldn't figure out why we not owners had better accomodations then they did as owners. I think these buildings are now torn down. Some people just want to keep throwing money at these people and are mad when they can't get what they want. !!! Or  get what they think they paid for.



Sponge - they were not below ground level - they were on ground level.  I was there the last 2 weeks of January at the new MP over by the golf course and stayed on the 2nd floor - the one that you did walk in from when you came through the (raised)  lobby, so they may have felt that because they had to ride the elevator down to walk the path to the other buildings.  When I wanted to go to the pool, I had to walk downstairs or take the elevator the 1st floor.  Until the new building is completed, there are no MP units at the resort - only GM ones.  I own both MP & GM units but chose to go to the new MP to check it out.


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## mikenk (Apr 3, 2011)

Karen G said:


> To me, that doesn't seem like such a good deal:  Pay a big price to the developer and then don't use the property. OR pay a big price to the developer and pay a MF to use it.  A better deal would be to buy resale for a considerably lower initial price and then pay a MF to use it.
> 
> The problem seems to be that you see only your side of the issue as being rational. Anyone who has had a different or negative experience to yours is irrational and you are offended by it.  I don't think anyone has started their post with "Hey, sucker." If they did, would it make it any better for you if they started with "Here's what happened to me and here's how I see it."



On your first point, actually, we use the property 3 to 4 times a year and all of the amenities. I never trade; I just use as my free golf and other stuff doesn't trade. No way do I want myself or our heirs obligated to something we will eventually not want to use. In no way am I saying this model is right for everyone - but it sure has some nice features for us. These are actually fairly easy financial calculations to justify- but you have to use to achieve and we do.

On your second point, not so at all. Read post 43; I believe that was intended and taken as an insult. I love to debate and have no problems with people that disagree with me - as long as they do it civilly and without hidden agendas. I just responded to Catlovers; I like that type of discussion; it allows discussions on how timeshare models differ; I have no problem with her post at all; I assume she wouldn't with my response.

Mike


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## Karen G (Apr 3, 2011)

Tropical lady said:


> wouldn't you want to know if you had incorrect information about something?


 Of course. But, the problem arises when someone has an experience that differs from someone else's experience and the two parties argue about whose experience is "right" or "correct" or "best."

I personally don't like the taste of fish. No amount of rational discussions about the subject will convince me otherwise.  Those who love eating fish may be offended by my opinion and may try to argue that I am biased or have an agenda against eating fish, but it is not going to change my position that I hate fish.  Belittling me or calling me names or getting upset with me will ultimately not change my mind.

Those who love fish or even sell fish may say that my opinion harms them or their business.  So be it. That's my belief and my experience--which is just as valid as those who love fish.


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## mikenk (Apr 3, 2011)

Actually, I love fish - but hated it growing up. But in reality, I hadn't ever tried it as my parents hated it; therefore I did also. I actually tried it when I moved to the ocean after college and discovered I loved it. 

I believe the fundamental belief on this board is "Maintenance fees are inevitable, buy resale and be happy". Many of us believe that is actually a choice as the GM model does not assume that MF's are inevitable. It really doesn't matter which model you prefer, but to not be open to even learning about the other just doesn't make much sense to me. That's what many of us perceive continues to happen. 

BTW, Karen, I can grill the most awesome Pistachio covered salmon or Blackened ahi Tuna on my Big Green Egg Grill - surely, you would like that.

Mike





Karen G said:


> Of course. But, the problem arises when someone has an experience that differs from someone else's experience and the two parties argue about whose experience is "right" or "correct" or "best."
> 
> I personally don't like the taste of fish. No amount of rational discussions about the subject will convince me otherwise.  Those who love eating fish may be offended by my opinion and may try to argue that I am biased or have an agenda against eating fish, but it is not going to change my position that I hate fish.  Belittling me or calling me names or getting upset with me will ultimately not change my mind.
> 
> Those who love fish or even sell fish may say that my opinion harms them or their business.  So be it. That's my belief and my experience--which is just as valid as those who love fish.


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## Karen G (Apr 3, 2011)

mikenk said:


> BTW, Karen, I can grill the most awesome Pistachio covered salmon or Blackened ahi Tuna on my Big Green Egg Grill - surely, you would like that.


I might taste it, but I won't go so far as to say I would like it. Fortunately, my kids did not take on my biases toward foods. My husband likes everything and 2 out the 3 kids do, too.

Sorry for the interruption--And now, back to a civil and rational discussion about GM likes and dislikes.


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## mikenk (Apr 3, 2011)

Karen G said:


> Sorry for the interruption--And now, back to a civil and rational discussion about GM likes and dislikes.



Actually, this is probably the longest thread ever on the GM system before going to the dumpster. While I think their ownership model and resort management policies should be looked at by many timeshare systems, I and others actually disagree with many of their practices, notably: High pressure sales, too much priorities to exchangers, too many developer weeks released for exchange. I plan on meeting with Karen Rose, the GM rep who monitors this board, next week when in Nuevo. Tropical Lady and I have already been communicating on things we want changed; any other owners are welcome to pm me with your issues. 

While we tend to band together when we feel under attack on this forum, we are all proactive on improving the system. IMHO, the GM system is the most innovative system in the business - not all good, not all bad - but certainly worth understanding and most assuredly not boring.

Mike


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## Tropical lady (Apr 3, 2011)

*responses....*

Karen,
I agree wholeheartedly with you about "belittling me, calling me names or getting upset with me", is not going to change someone's mind.  You hit the nail on the head!!  Not one of us...Mike, Phyllis,Tropical lady, Allikai, have resorted to insults, name calling, rudeness, etc.  We have taken the high road with rational explanations (not disagreement). Did I miss something here, or because we are not face to face we are free to say anything that makes US feel good and don't consider for a moment how our response impacts others?


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## Karen G (Apr 3, 2011)

Tropical lady said:


> Karen,
> Not one of us...Mike, Phyllis,Tropical lady, Allikai, have resorted to insults, name calling, rudeness, etc.  We have taken the high road with rational explanations (not disagreement).


I don't have the desire nor the inclination to go back and read all the back & forth exchanges between the MP/GM lovers & haters, but I do know that all of you were kind of hard on Catlover for her negative review of a stay at GM and a sales presentation.  The term "sucker" was used for some owners someone met at a GM property--the poster didn't call anyone on TUG by that name that I know of. 

But, at any rate, I appreciate the tone of this thread and hope it will continue.  The past is the past--let's keep it that way and not rehash all the old stuff. Anyone can do a search and dredge up all the stuff that has been said before. It will serve no purpose, other than to send this thread to the dumpster if it deteriorates to name calling, ad nauseum.

Several of you have asked for a rational discussion--so please have it.


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## sjuhawk_jd (Apr 3, 2011)

rpennisi said:


> Sally,
> You have your Mexican coasts mixed up.  Also, there is no Bliss east or west coast, and the only current Grand Bliss is in Nuevo Vallarta...



rpennisi, you mean to say that our resident expert and cheerleader for Grand Bliss is somehow wrong about Grand Bliss? I am completely shocked, dismayed, and in great deal of pain.:ignore:


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## mikenk (Apr 3, 2011)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> rpennisi, you mean to say that our resident expert and cheerleader for Grand Bliss is somehow wrong about Grand Bliss? I am completely shocked, dismayed, and in great deal of pain.:ignore:



Sorry about your pain. I believe that Sally indeed knows where the Grand Bliss units are; if I remember correctly, she is actually concerned as to where it is going to be in RM as it appears not to be beach front as originally planned. Grupo Mayan changes priorities frequently. 

However, I must admit I am missing the point of importance and significance.

Mike


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## CatLovers (Apr 3, 2011)

CatLovers said:


> My concern with such a model is that it assumes that there will always be new people buying into the system who will fund the ongoing maintenance of existing properties.  Existing properties need to be maintained, and if people start choosing not to "use" (due to economic or other environmental circumstances) AND new people stop buying into the system (for the same or different reasons), you have the potential for the whole house of cards to come tumbling down.  Sort of a reverse Ponzi scheme, if you will.
> 
> I guess only time will tell ... given that there are a few TUGgers who have invested in GM properties, I hope that my perspective on this situation will not come true!





Tropical lady said:


> It is interesting that a sales model (aka timeshare from hell with sales weazels), so far, uses the concept of "no mandatory MF unless you use" and appears successful.  They also waived the MF's for EVERYONE (whether in the contract or not) in 2009 due to the economic crunch.  Obviously this would not be going on if financials were not in good status.  They also have real estate development, airport facilities and other enterprises.  Maybe their diversification is the advantage.



As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it is my sincere hope that this possibility never comes to pass as it would be difficult (and in some cases devastating) for those who are already financially invested in this project.  Because Grupo Vidanta is a privately-held company, there is not a lot of independent financial information out there to allow one to confidently determine their leverage and how much debt they carry on their balance sheet.  So I hope that this dialogue is indeed just academic and not one that will never become a reality.  Nevertheless, for others who are not financially vested in GM and perhaps thinking about entering into such a transaction, this is another valid data point to consider.


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## rpennisi (Apr 4, 2011)

CatLovers said:


> As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it is my sincere hope that this possibility never comes to pass as it would be difficult (and in some cases devastating) for those who are already financially invested in this project.  Because Grupo Vidanta is a privately-held company, there is not a lot of independent financial information out there to allow one to confidently determine their leverage and how much debt they carry on their balance sheet.  So I hope that this dialogue is indeed just academic and not one that will never become a reality.  Nevertheless, for others who are not financially vested in GM and perhaps thinking about entering into such a transaction, this is another valid data point to consider.



I don't know if this is true or not, but I was told that Grupo Vidanta (at least when they were Grupo Mayan) had no debt.  All their construction projects are said to be funded with money that they take in from new sales, operations and maintenance and other 5 year fees.  If that is so, then they have to keep selling and growing.


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## mikenk (Apr 4, 2011)

rpennisi said:


> I don't know if this is true or not, but I was told that Grupo Vidanta (at least when they were Grupo Mayan) had no debt.  All their construction projects are said to be funded with money that they take in from new sales, operations and maintenance and other 5 year fees.  If that is so, then they have to keep selling and growing.



All indications I have is that they operate everything on a cash basis and do not carry much debt. I am sure their expansion is funded by new sales; when sales slow down, their expansion slows down or might even stop. Their other sources of income: direct rent, MF, exchanges, restaurants, etc should cover the maintenance just like any other well managed resort system. From all appearances, they also manage their expenses very well. 

A bigger danger from my perspective is a meltdown of the Mexican vacation market due to outside influences such as a dramatic change in the drug war and political climate. 

Let's look at the personal investment side. The traditional timeshare model is one pays an upfront cost (to a developer or resale) for the right to use a piece of property and you pay yearly MF's forever for that right. The GM model is basically the exact same thing for most. I actually bought resale from a TUG member. However, GM throws in a twist; they also will negotiate upgrades based on the retail equity of your ownership and throw in lots of stuff: bonus weeks, golf, senior discounts, no MF unless you use, etc. This is the part that makes it unique and is the stuff I want as I always pay more for that stuff than I do on lodging. It makes financial analysis quite easy; BTW, the cost upgrades to the higher levels are not that exorbitant and will never be available on resale.

The TUG Mantra is never buy retail; only buy resale. I can't see any financial logic in this day and time to ever buy resale or retail for simple lodging coupled with a forever MF. Lodging is a commodity - just rent and not be saddled with this long term debt. It should be about vacations - not simple lodging. The GM model is more about prepaid vacations that meet your families goals; I believe more timeshare systems should be considering this model; then do it better than the GM system.

I would like to find a similar package for Canada or New England but can't find anything but traditional lodging for a MF timeshares - just doesn't work for me.

Mike


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## Karen G (Apr 4, 2011)

mikenk said:


> The traditional timeshare model is one pays an upfront cost (to a developer or resale) for the right to use a piece of property and you pay yearly MF's forever for that right.


This isn't the model for Mexico because resorts there are right-to-use and not deeded. Contracts are usually for a set number of years rather than forever.

I do agree that being stuck with MF's forever is not a great idea for the buyer, and that's why we see people giving away their timeshares today because of those ongoing MF's. In my opinion, today it makes more sense to just rent rather than buy a timeshare.



mikenk said:


> The GM model is more about prepaid vacations that meet your families goals;


The problem I see with prepaid vacations is that there are so many variables that can impact one's future vacations such as the price of airfare, political unrest or crime situation (especially in Mexico), and the ever-increasing MF's one has to pay to use the timeshare that sometimes the value one thinks he has going in kind of evaporates as time passes.


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## mikenk (Apr 4, 2011)

Karen G said:


> This isn't the model for Mexico because resorts there are right-to-use and not deeded. Contracts are usually for a set number of years rather than forever.
> 
> I do agree that being stuck with MF's forever is not a great idea for the buyer, and that's why we see people giving away their timeshares today because of those ongoing MF's. In my opinion, today it makes more sense to just rent rather than buy a timeshare.
> 
> The problem I see with prepaid vacations is that there are so many variables that can impact one's future vacations such as the price of airfare, political unrest or crime situation (especially in Mexico), and the ever-increasing MF's one has to pay to use the timeshare that sometimes the value one thinks he has going in kind of evaporates as time passes.



I agree on both your points. That is the reason I don't want any ongoing MF obligation for a long time as there are too many variables. I am pretty comfortable with seeing 5 years out; that is why I did my financial calculations on a five year payback. Will I use the GM facilities and amenities enough to pay back my upgrade investment in that time frame after which I could simply walk away.  Other people will have different goals and timelines but the calculations are pretty simple. As you say, the baseline is renting and paying for golf, massages, etc. which are easy to estimate for comparison. I believe this is the way all timeshare investments should be considered; any money committed over 10 years out is too speculative to be considered as anything except expense.

That is also why i disagree with so many in the TUG USA timeshare segment that seem to love buying cheap timeshares. IMHO, in today's world, any timeshare at any cost carrying a long term obligation makes no financial sense versus renting.

Mike


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## sally13 (Apr 4, 2011)

*The way I see it...*

Rational ,does not mean that one can call a grupo vandanta buyer a 'sucker'...to defend this is wrong...I could say that all other timeshare buyers are the same,but where would that get us??

Mike is completely correct in his claim that a no fee/unless you use timeshare is superior...(in a system such as Grupo)(not so in others)..We upgraded mainly for this feature,as insurance..(nice to have)..

I view any $$$ spent on a timeshare purchase as not really that important in the scheme of things to come...Many are as one said ' CHILLED' to what I have tried to share,but was not allowed...I have always said (Buy a top tier product in a place that you would not mind always going to ,year after year...Grupo is sort of unique in that their products are all of the same  high quality in 6 or 7 differing locations..



These are the differing points that one must concern themselves with ,if a true understanding of Grupo owners is to be understood...

Ron,hawk...You are correct,I am sorry..My mind drifted in that post...

Tropical Lady...you are correct,in that many posters feathers get ruffled in these post,and then go postal.. I have tried to stick to topics,but have been drawn in(really because of P messages,that were cruel)and perhaps stepped out of bounds myself...but mainly by discussing taboo subjects   I tell it like I see it,without really trying to be mean...others seek to be coy or nasty in their post as a way of seeking to control,and even feel superior...this in my book is just schoolyard bully tactics that are often allowed...many times I have thought enough...why do I bother??In the end I refuse to let the childish few dictate and often focus on topics,rather then the silly sniping.....but I am human...and sometimes fail in this pursuit...

Karen's fish analogy is spot on ,but often one does not really know what they like and dislike,unless thrust into it...I for one said I would NEVER again vacation in Mexico...That was before Grupo came into our lives...is it a cult???as some have suggested??NO! just a bunch of finely built and run top tier resorts ...

Why do I ???mainly because I see so many others ,trying to degrade,smear,and hurt a group of folks (south of the border)that have added IMMENSE VALUE to our lives...and THAT is a crime,not an opinion,as these hardworking people deserve better,then to be judged based on a bargain hunters shortcommings as a consumer...

frankly..I would not even consider using my time on a so-so resort...I guess THAT is what makes a satified grupo Vadanta owner ,a bit of a stranger on TUG...


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## sally13 (Apr 4, 2011)

*hey...*

Is Allen O.K.???


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## Karen G (Apr 4, 2011)

sally13 said:


> Is Allen O.K.???


Who is Allen?


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## mikenk (Apr 4, 2011)

Karen G said:


> Who is Allen?



I am curious too but was afraid to ask.


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## sally13 (Apr 4, 2011)

*Allen...*

Allen ,the (All timeshares are the same ,retail or resale!!The exact same thing)...Allen...


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## DeniseM (Apr 4, 2011)

His name is "Alan," and he is a long-time Tugger who is one of the smartest and most articulate people on TUG.

This is one of the things that gets you into trouble Sally - you can't seem to stick to the topic, and avoid personal comments.

You need to stick to the topic, and avoid making snide remarks about people who disagree with you.


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## rpennisi (Apr 4, 2011)

mikenk said:


> ...Let's look at the personal investment side. The traditional timeshare model is one pays an upfront cost (to a developer or resale) for the right to use a piece of property and you pay yearly MF's forever for that right. The GM model is basically the exact same thing for most. I actually bought resale from a TUG member. However, GM throws in a twist; they also will negotiate upgrades based on the retail equity of your ownership and throw in lots of stuff: bonus weeks, golf, senior discounts, no MF unless you use, etc. This is the part that makes it unique and is the stuff I want as I always pay more for that stuff than I do on lodging. It makes financial analysis quite easy; BTW, the cost upgrades to the higher levels are not that exorbitant and will never be available on resale.
> 
> The TUG Mantra is never buy retail; only buy resale. I can't see any financial logic in this day and time to ever buy resale or retail for simple lodging coupled with a forever MF. Lodging is a commodity - just rent and not be saddled with this long term debt. It should be about vacations - not simple lodging. The GM model is more about prepaid vacations that meet your families goals; I believe more timeshare systems should be considering this model...Mike


Mike,
Maybe I didn't try to negotiate in January when we went on an owner's update at NV to get the best deal.  I golf at home, but not on vacation, and the massages are not something that interests me.  We own 2 MP's, bought resale on ebay.  The equity deal was this:
Give up our 2 MP's (a one and a two bedroom with fair trade weeks, and one with a Maz pack).
Give them $10800 US.
Get 3 weeks of 2 bedroom GM, pay only MF's that you use.
I didn't go for it, thanked them and left.  We got 2500 pesos, 10% resort discount and used a whale watching discount.
I didn't go for the deal for several reasons (my wife would have):
The mf's that were calculated for future years were too high.  The 2010 mf's went up 2.9%.  They were calculating the max for the future years, through the end of the contract, including the max for the 5 year renewals.
They included in their calculations the 5X mf for the 25 year renewal, something that I will not be doing, although my kids may (but probably not).
The result of their calculations was a cost to us of around $22,000 US (maybe a little higher).
The pros and cons:
Pros:  I would love to have GM instead of MP as a rule (now I get that only through RCI and special circumstances).  The units are definitely nicer.  Use of the spa and gym without charge is a plus.
With a grandchild on the way, it might (will) get more difficult to get away most of the winter with our timeshares, and not paying mandatory mf's could become useful (but this was not a known when we went on our update at NV).
Cons:  Besides the upfront cost of $10,800 US, I would be getting one week less than when using my MP weeks and vacation fair trade additions.
Lesser units at the MP, but also lower priced mf's than paying mf's for GM.
Since I will not pay the 5X renewals for another 25 years of usage for either MP unit, a rather large chunk of that $22,000 is taken away.

If all hell breaks out in Mexico and going on vacation there is someday a real problem, then putting $10,800 additional dollars in might not be wise.  Personally, we have no problem going to any of the Mayan resorts, except maybe Puerto Penasco (until you can fly in commercially).  Acapulco may be getting sketchy, but the resort is out of town and not a problem.  PV, NV, RM are to us as safe as anything in the US.  I know a lot of people don't feel this way about anywhere in Mexico, but that's their feelings, not ours.
Ron


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## mikenk (Apr 4, 2011)

Ron,

In my case , we started with the 2 bdrm GM plus VF week. It had the mandatory MF and I was only two years away from the 5 yr renovation fee. Going to the GL villa gave me much more time, removed all the renovation fees, no MF unless used, the golf, massages. since we always take people and love vacation golf - it worked for us. As you point out, all family situations are different - no one solution works for everyone. However, it is nice to have options and to understand them.

A negative in my deal for most people but not really for us is we have so many amenities already paid for that it is hard for us to exchange as none of the goodies exchange. We travel a lot elsewhere with other friends as they reciprocate so it is not a problem for us. I travel to NV next week; my main complaint will be the II arrangement which works for II but not so much IMO for the GL folks. 

Mike


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## rpennisi (Apr 4, 2011)

mikenk said:


> In my case , we started with the 2 bdrm GM plus VF week. It had the mandatory MF and I was only two years away from the 5 yr renovation fee. Going to the GL villa gave me much more time, removed all the renovation fees, no MF, the golf, massages. since we always take people and love vacation golf - it worked for us. As you point out, all family situations are different - no one solution works for everyone.
> 
> A negative in my deal for most but not really for us is we have so many amenities already paid for that it is hard for us to exchange as none of the goodies exchange. We travel a lot elsewhere with other friends as they reciprocate so it is not a problem for us.



Mike,
Sounds like you got a deal tailored to your needs that works out well.  And, what's not to like about the GL, they are outstanding units!
Maybe someday, if the timing is right, I would think about upgrading, but for me the time is not right.  I do think Grupo Vidanta will always have another deal to offer, given that they continue to upgrade their product, and they need new capital to continue to expand.
Ron


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## mikenk (Apr 4, 2011)

rpennisi said:


> I do think Grupo Vidanta will always have another deal to offer, given that they continue to upgrade their product, and they need new capital to continue to expand.
> Ron



You are right. They will always have a new deal to offer and I am OK with that. I will be at the GL in NV next week, I will do the upgrade meeting; I am always up for negotiating a better deal.

Mike


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## rpennisi (Apr 4, 2011)

mikenk said:


> You are right. They will always have a new deal to offer and I am OK with that. I will be at the GL in NV next week, I will do the upgrade meeting; I am always up for negotiating a better deal.
> 
> Mike


Mike,
Please check out the fence that is now a wall and if you can find out if they are going to make it passable as some have reported.  Thanks.
Ron


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## sally13 (Apr 4, 2011)

*sorry for topic stray..*

I did not mean to disrail the topic,nor did I know it was a capitol sin to ask about the where abouts of a valued friend??I just thought if we were able to give Alan...(sorry for original mistake in name spelling)a shout...he would have something valuable to add, as this is right up his alley...

as far as being snide??? I really can not comment....

thanks anyway Denise................................


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## mikenk (Apr 4, 2011)

rpennisi said:


> Mike,
> Please check out the fence that is now a wall and if you can find out if they are going to make it passable as some have reported.  Thanks.
> Ron



Yes, I will do that; after all the discussion, I really want to see for myself what the walk is like. I will also be checking out the new Nicklaus golf course - I assume only 15 holes are still open. 

Mike


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## Cheryl17 (Apr 5, 2011)

*Question for Mike*



mikenk said:


> my main complaint will be the II arrangement which works for II but not so much IMO for the GL folks.



We haven't upgraded so we're in RCI.  Would you mind elaborating?


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## mikenk (Apr 5, 2011)

Cheryl17 said:


> We haven't upgraded so we're in RCI.  Would you mind elaborating?



Cheryl,
let me qualify that my observations are primarily from owners comments on Grand mayan focused websites as I haven't exchanged; maybe others can chime in.

Grand Mayan trades extensively on several sites; Grand Bliss was primarily the Registry which owners seem to really like; the GL supposedly trades only through II. Members have complained of not getting equal value when they exchange, In addition, Grupo Mayan seems to release company owned inventory into II for easy access to GL inventory. From all appearances, It seems to be unbalanced. 

i have no problem with people exchanging in but I believe GL owners should get equal value, have first shot at GL inventory, and get GL units with the best view. I don't think that is happening and will be high on my complaint list. Whereas people on this board perceive me as a GM cheerleader, my guess is the GM member services folks see me as a pain in the behind.

Mike


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## CatLovers (Apr 5, 2011)

Tropical lady said:


> Karen,
> Not one of us...Mike, Phyllis,Tropical lady, Allikai, have resorted to insults, name calling, rudeness, etc.  We have taken the high road with rational explanations (not disagreement). Did I miss something here, or because we are not face to face we are free to say anything that makes US feel good and don't consider for a moment how our response impacts others?



Okay, I held back on responding to this for a couple of days because I wanted to weigh the consequences of possible outcomes i.e. setting the record straight vs. the potential of igniting emotions and creating yet another firestorm on the subject of Grupo Mayan and Grupo Vidanta.  After some reflection, I have decided that setting the record straight is important, so with some hesitation (but not a lot  ) I continue.  

Unfortunately this statement quoted above is not entirely true.  While I have observed instances as they relate to other individuals, I will only speak of the ones that apply to me.  Since I posted my very negative review a couple of months ago about my stay at the Grand Mayan Nuevo Vallarta, I have been called petty, arrogant, childish and foolish, among other belittling remarks.  I was also told that "I know very little about this subject".  Remember, all I did was post my experience -- I was there, so I know what I experienced -- thus I was a little surprised that someone else would know more about my experience than I.  It has been implied by at least one person that I am stupid, and too low-brow to know what a five-star resort is like.  And all this because my report of my negative experience has apparently offended those who are die-hard fans of GM.  Now don't shed too many tears for me, I can handle the words  , but I chose to post because I feel that it's important to set the record straight.  I really liked *Karen G*'s metaphor about liking and (not) eating fish earlier in this thread (Post #54) as I think she has captured very well the essence of the ongoing conflict on this subject.  I really think it's okay for us to agree to disagree.

I am glad to see that many of us on the Mexico forum are now making the effort to be respectful and civil to each other, and I hope that it will continue.  I think the "high road", with respectful dialogue and disagreement is definitely the way to go.  When I post on this subject in the future, it will not be with the intention to convince the GM fans on this board of my point of view (it has never been my intention to do so anyway) but rather to share my experience (contrary as it may be) with others who have asked a question, or to offer a perspective that I feel is valid and relevant to comments that have been made.

PS. *Tropical lady*, I want you to know that I really really really wanted to hotlink to my original review post (from January) when I referenced it earlier in this post, but I know that I caused you some (unintended) angst the last time I did it  .  So as a gesture of goodwill  , I am holding back today!  For the record, I'm extending an olive branch; not being sarcastic!


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## aliikai2 (Apr 5, 2011)

_Superfluous material not related to topic has been deleted_





> PS. *Tropical lady*, I want you to know that I really really really wanted to hotlink to my original review post (from January) when I referenced it earlier in this post, but I know that I caused you some (unintended) angst the last time I did it  .  So as a gesture of goodwill  , I am holding back today!  For the record, I'm extending an olive branch; not being sarcastic!




The thread you are alluding to was posted back on January 13th , correct?

I for one thought that the rhetoric and vitriolicness had dissipated and we had moved on. It seems from you post that you are harboring some animosity. 
While I disagree with your original GM post and your continued linking to the " 3000 word " post, you do have the right to your opinion. Again, I am sorry that you didn't enjoy your stay at the Grand Mayan.
We will be back again in June taking our 15 yo Granddaughter for her summer of 15 trip. We will have a great time.

fwiw,

Greg


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## CatLovers (Apr 5, 2011)

aliikai2 said:


> I for one thought that the rhetoric and vitriolicness had dissipated and we had moved on. It seems from you post that you are harboring some animosity.


No, no animosity at all; I'm glad we've moved on.  I quite prefer being nice to each other, it's so much more pleasant.



aliikai2 said:


> We will be back again in June taking our 15 yo Granddaughter for her summer of 15 trip. We will have a great time.


Have a fantastic trip!


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## sally13 (Apr 6, 2011)

*The olive branch...*

Catlovers...I am glad you are of the glass half full tribe these days!!

In light of this new revelation,I would like to invite you BACK to the fine Grand Mayan resort!!

Each time we vacation,we discover a new bit about ourselves...If you try the resort again,you could find that your previous expierience was the result of perhaps a bad hair day (or week)... 

Thousands and thousands of folks that find  Grupo Vadanta resorts splendid,can not ALL be nut jobs!!

Please stay away from the freeby offer,as you now know this hard sell,comes at a price...

hey!! could also be that Denise can set you up in a $366,000. Grand Luxxe for $253.  a week,each and every year from here on out!!!....How can you pass that up???....:hysterical:


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