# an airline horror story



## Carolinian (Jan 31, 2009)

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28898153/


----------



## gorevs9 (Jan 31, 2009)

Carolinian said:


> www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28898153/



The delay put this couple (and I'm sure thousands of others) in a tough situation.

It seems like everyone is blaming Delta.  The cruise line and the insurance are claiming an "Act of God", but people are treating Delta as the evil one. 

As a matter of Customer Relations, Delta should have (at least) waived the change fee, put them on stand-by and allow the couple to fly with no extra charge if a seat was available OR worked harder to find a cheaper fare, even if on a different airline?

[Political comment deleted.-DenseM Moderator]

What are the responsibilities of "each" of the entities (cruise-line, insurance, Delta, passengers)?  

Please enlighten me since I've never been on a cruise.  IF the couple purchased the air tickets through the cruise-line, would the results have been any different?  
Is it true if air & cruise are purchased together, the cruise-line deals with any delays with air travel getting TO the cruise?  But how about getting FROM the cruise? Is the cruise-line still responsible for delays at that point?.

Many people purchase Cruise and Air separately to save money only to find problems when issues such as this arrive.


----------



## Talent312 (Jan 31, 2009)

Delta's behavior was cold-hearted; however, this is another lesson in the need to anticipate potential transit delays. The couple could have avoided the situation in a couple of ways:
1. Buying their entire itinerary thru the cruiseline, which would then have covered the delay.
2. Building the potential for delay into their return by plannig a one-night stay in Rome.

I know of a travel agency that routinely advises their clients that, for international cruises, they should plan to arrive at least one day before and not depart until one day after the cruise.

When I travel internationally, I always spend the night before a flight in the same city as the airport.  The only time I did not do this was when I took a train from Wuerzburg direct to the Frankfurt airport.  In May, I'll fly Gatwick to the States, but I'm flying in from Edinburgh the night B4, rather than "cutting it close" by relying on a morning-of flight.
---------
BTW, this was likely Delta's last flight to the States that day, so stand-by would not have worked, and if they had tried another airline, they would not have gotten credit for what they had paid Delta.


----------



## Keitht (Jan 31, 2009)

I agree that Delta don't exactly cover themselves in glory in terms of customer service, but the delay suffered by these passengers was in no way the fault or responsibility of Delta so why should Delta waive additional fees if they look at things in a purely commercial way?
Purchasing a fly/cruise package puts all the responsibility for getting the passengers from the home airport, onto the cruise, and back to the home airport.  There would have been no additional cost to the passengers in this situation had they bought such a package.
When travelling independently, particularly if their are flight or cruise connections, it is vital to build in an allowance for timeslip.  What would they have done if the outbound flight had been delayed?  The cruise ship wouldn't have waited for them so they would either have had to pay for flights to the next port of call or miss the entire cruise.
I think the real villains in this are the insurance companies who all seem to have wriggled their way out of any responsibility or liability.  As seems to be the norm for insurers, they take your money quick enough but hate the thought that they might actually have to provide some form of cover.:annoyed:


----------



## Carolinian (Jan 31, 2009)

Usually such situations are taken care of by the airlines under what is called the ''flat tire rule'' without socking people with huge fees.

In extensive discussion on this article on Flyer Talk, only one person had a directly similar situation with a similar delay involving a trans-Atlantic flight home from Italy.  Fortunately they were on Alitalia, which put them on flights the next day without any additional charge AND even gave them a hotel voucher, even though a delay in the cruise ship putting into Venice caused the missed flight, not anything Alitalia did.  Alitalia and Delta seem to be on opposite extremes on how to deal with passengers in this situation.  Alitalia is on the extreme end of being passenger friendly while Delta is on the extreme end of being passenger unfriendly.  Most airlines would be somewhere in between.  I suspect that one would find few that would give a hotel voucher but few who would nail this elderly couple to the wall with fees.

The experiences of this couple are food for thought on what airline to buy your ticket on and what travel insurance company to use.


----------



## dougp26364 (Jan 31, 2009)

Talent312 said:


> Delta's behavior was cold-hearted; however, this is another lesson in the need to anticipate potential transit delays. The couple could have avoided the situation in a couple of ways:
> 1. Buying their entire itinerary thru the cruiseline, which would then have covered the delay.
> 2. Building the potential for delay into their return by plannig a one-night stay in Rome.
> 
> ...



If you think the cruiseline's air/cruise package will cover all things, including acts of God, you'd better read the fine print. Buying airfare through the cruise line guarentee's nothing.

Granted the cruiseline's travel department will work harder to get you home and, they have contracts with airlines that average citizens don't have, you're still not guarenteed anything. You will stand a better chance of not having to shell out extra money just to get home and, cruise/air passengers often have all of the details taken care of for them by the cruise lines travel department.


----------



## x3 skier (Jan 31, 2009)

Carolinian said:


> Alitalia and Delta seem to be on opposite extremes on how to deal with passengers in this situation.  Alitalia is on the extreme end of being passenger friendly while Delta is on the extreme end of being passenger unfriendly.
> 
> The experiences of this couple are food for thought on what airline to buy your ticket on and what travel insurance company to use.



Anyone who books a flight on Alitalia is taking a big gamble IMO. With periodic no notice strikes, impending bankruptcy, failed buy outs, failed mergers, the Italian Prime Minister interference, and a few other odds and ends, its a real crap shoot if you get to your destination on time or even if they will exist at all. Not a bad airline but totally unpredictable. I declined the offer of an award ticket to London and Venice on Alitalia and flew the Evil Empire, Air France and BMI instead with superb service. The Alitalia flight I had originally was offered was canceled the day of departure due to a ground crew union strike. Of course the Air France leg was a bit of a gamble as well as they are in the running for the leadership of the strike disruption derby.

That said, arriving/leaving a day ahead of a cruise is always a good idea no matter what the airline since all airlines and the cruise ships can be affected by weather, mechanical problems, etc.

Cheers


----------



## Carolinian (Feb 1, 2009)

You seem to have missed the latest news on Alitalia.  They have indeed been bought out by another airline and on the way to recovery.

As to one day strikes, no one can hold a candle to Air France in that regard.  I have had extra days in Paris several times as a result of such strikes.  If one is lucky and it is AF employees striking that means a hotel and meal vouchers, but if it is someone else, like air traffic controllers, you are on your own on hotel and meals.


----------



## Keitht (Feb 1, 2009)

Carolinian said:


> As to one day strikes, no one can hold a candle to Air France in that regard.



In fact you can probably delete the word 'Air' from the sentence.  It seems some part of France or another is permanently on strike.  In recent times I can remember air traffic controllers, fishermen (blockading ports), lorry drivers (blockading ports & border crossings).  On 29th January they had a 1 day National Strike, presumbly to ensure that nobody went on strike because they had been left out of previous strikes.


----------



## x3 skier (Feb 1, 2009)

Carolinian said:


> You seem to have missed the latest news on Alitalia.  They have indeed been bought out by another airline and on the way to recovery.



The last I had heard was KLM-Air France had bought 25% last week and some consortium of Italian Businessmen had the rest. Did another airline buy that part from that consortium? http://edition.cnn.com/2009/BUSINESS/01/13/alitalia.air.france.klm/index.html 

From the referenced article "It remains to be seen how free the new Alitalia will be from union strikes. Demonstrations are scheduled for Tuesday, but no immediate strikes are planned. The next *scheduled* strike is expected to take place January 19 for four hours."

Combining Air France and Alitalia should make for interesting strike / walkout / etc situations.:rofl: 

Cheers


----------



## x3 skier (Feb 1, 2009)

Keitht said:


> In fact you can probably delete the word 'Air' from the sentence.  It seems some part of France or another is permanently on strike.  In recent times I can remember air traffic controllers, fishermen (blockading ports), lorry drivers (blockading ports & border crossings).  On 29th January they had a 1 day National Strike, presumbly to ensure that nobody went on strike because they had been left out of previous strikes.



I have always thought that Italy and France were in some sort of competition to see who could shut down the most things per year. :hysterical: 

The EU Commissioners are the arbiters of the results but they are now 5 years behind because of internal disputes over the rules and the EU Court is somewhat backlogged with anti trust reviews. 

Cheers


----------



## Carolinian (Feb 1, 2009)

Air One is part of that consortium of Italian businessmen, and Air One and Alitalia are being merged, with the Alitalia name surviving.  And yes, AF/KLM has bought a 25% stake in the airline.  The new management got tough with the unions and seem to have established that they have the upper hand.




x3 skier said:


> The last I had heard was KLM-Air France had bought 25% last week and some consortium of Italian Businessmen had the rest. Did another airline buy that part from that consortium? http://edition.cnn.com/2009/BUSINESS/01/13/alitalia.air.france.klm/index.html
> 
> From the referenced article "It remains to be seen how free the new Alitalia will be from union strikes. Demonstrations are scheduled for Tuesday, but no immediate strikes are planned. The next *scheduled* strike is expected to take place January 19 for four hours."
> 
> ...


----------



## Carolinian (Feb 3, 2009)

It is interesting to contrast DL's response to that of AA in a current thread on Flyer Talk.  While the missed connection is not from a cruise, it is a missed connection nonetheless and one the trans-Atlantic (TATL) airline (AA) was not legally responsible for.

In that situation, the poster had bought two tickets back to back, US to Heathrow and return from AA, and Heathrow to Rome and return on BA.  The return BA flight from Rome to Heathrow was delayed so that it would not connect in Heathrow with the AA flight back to the US.  The passenger went to the AA desk, even though it was not the carrier with the late flight and had not sold the segments between Heathrow and Rome.  It was too late that day to get the passenger on any flights of AA and its partners back to the states, but AA put him on a flight the following day, direct from Rome to the states at no extra cost.


----------



## bruwery (Feb 6, 2009)

*Not so fast*

I'm not necessarily trying to defend Delta here, because I've had a rather miserable experience with that airline myself, but it is possible that there may be more to this story than we've heard.

We've read the couple's side of this tale of woe.  Naturally, they're going to tell it in a light that paints them as innocent victims, and the anti-corporation press is more than willing to play that angle.

They may be innocent victims, but what we don't know is the attitude with which they approached the airline.  Did they immediately fly off the handle, read somebody the riot act, unleash a few profanities?

I'm not saying they did, but let's be careful about condemning the airline when we only have half the story.  The fact that the couple felt a need to throw the "we're senior citizens" argument into the article makes me skeptical about the approach they took.

Technically, the airline was operating within their rules.  If you need them to do something for you, a kind and gentle approach is logical.  Although, all that being said, it's probably irrelevant when dealing with Delta...


----------



## WalnutBaron (Feb 6, 2009)

I had a similar--though much less expensive and much less severe--experience last year.  I had booked a trip to Hawaii using Delta Skymiles.  Since Delta does not fly to Lihue, I booked my trip to Honolulu with a connection to Lihue on Hawaiian Air.

The problem occurred when Delta changed their schedule on my free flights to such a degree that I was going to miss my connection on Hawaiian.  I tried to get Delta to reimburse me for the change fee incurred with Hawaiian in order to establish a later flight to make the connection, but no dice.

The lesson learned?  Booking free flights using FF miles is very tough--especially to highly desirable destinations like Hawaii.  Booking them with a paid connection on another airline is just asking for trouble.


----------



## Talent312 (Feb 6, 2009)

WalnutBaron said:


> ...The problem occurred when Delta changed their schedule on my free flights to such a degree that I was going to miss my connection on Hawaiian.  I tried to get Delta to reimburse me for the change fee incurred with Hawaiian in order to establish a later flight to make the connection, but no dice.



These days, schedule changes, flight delays and equipment issues are more the norm than not.  That's why its somewhat foolhardy to assume an on-time arrival and reimbursement when booking other same-day activities, be it a flight, a luau, or an appointment with a dentist.


----------



## Carolinian (Feb 7, 2009)

*Travel agents agree*

There is certainly the potential on any airline for an unpleasant surprise, but Delta has carved out a particular niche of taking this to extremes, something that is even recognized by the professionals, the travel agents, who regard DL as ''exceptionally uncommunicative and unbending''.  See the article at 

www.travelweekly.com/print.aspx?id=188918

If they do this to travel agents, who in this day and time mainly book for corporate clients who buy high dollar tickets, why would they not do it to ma and pa kettle?


----------



## Talent312 (Feb 7, 2009)

Carolinian said:


> There is certainly the potential on any airline for an unpleasant surprise, but Delta has carved out a particular niche of taking this to extremes...



I certainly understand why those agents are frustrated with Delta.  When making a booking for a friend, I accidentally reversed the flights, and although I called in the correction within minutes, still had to pay a change fee.  P*ssed me off, too.

Its almost like dealing with a bank at which a dweeb misapplies some stupid regulation.  CSR says they'll be a hold on some funds wired in for a closing.  Like hell.  Next day, a VP says the funds are available immediately.

More recently: Teller says there'll be a hold on a deposit since the check is from another county.  Me: "Oh, yeah?  I'd like to see your supervisor."  Teller disappears with check; returns with, "Well, she approved it."  Me: "Its a state government draft.  In 25 years, I've never had a hold on one."  <shrug>
Yet I continue to bank there.  Go figure.


----------



## Gramma5 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Good old Delta*

I booked 5 tickets on Delta for my children and grandchildren last Aug. for flights in April from Minneapolis to Orlando.......Delta has changed the flight times 4 times (and there's a connection they have to make in Atlanta)!!! 
We have used NWA for the last 25 years and have flown 1,000,000 miles and never had this kind of problem. From now on, we will avoid Delta at all cost!

They even put them on a small commuter (50seats) but when I called to complain, they somehow found  good seats on a flight out of Atlanta. To make things more upsetting, when we were finished, the booking agent said not to be surprised if there are even more changes!!!!
I'm glad we intentionally used up most of our FF miles before they took over NWA.


----------



## Talent312 (Feb 20, 2009)

Gramma5 said:


> I booked 5 tickets on Delta for my children and grandchildren last *August* for flights in *April* from Minneapolis to Orlando.......Delta has changed the flight times 4 times... (emphasis added)



Delta may well deserves the bad press it gets, but whining about schedule changes for flights booked *eight months* out is silly.  If that was going to be a problem, you could have easily waited, like until now.  Buy that early and you should expect changes... including the possible demise of the airline itself.


----------



## pianodinosaur (Feb 20, 2009)

I agree with Talent312 and have put my money where my mouth is.  We will be leaving for a roundtrip cruise out of Barcelona next week.  We will fly to Barcelona two days prior to setting sail and stay at the Hilton Del Mar one day prior to setting sail. As an extra precaution, we will be spending the night prior to our flight at the DoubleTree using Hilton's 14 day Stay and Fly package. We will spend an additional day in Barcelona at the Hilton Del Mar after disembarkation so as to avoid any problems connecting to our flight home. (The cruise was paid for with HGVC points and the hotel stays in Barcelona were paid with HHonors redemptions. This is why we did not book the hotel rooms and flights with the Royal Caribbean.) 

There are no guarantees that everything will uneventful when traveling. We stayed at the Hilton Lagoon Towers at HHV in 2004.  We landed in Oahu safe and sound but our luggage went all the way to Guam and it was two days before we had it delivered. My wife had to go shopping for new clothes right away. Awe Shucks!!


----------



## x3 skier (Feb 20, 2009)

Talent312 said:


> Delta may well deserves the bad press it gets, but whining about schedule changes for flights booked *eight months* out is silly.  If that was going to be a problem, you could have easily waited, like until now.  Buy that early and you should expect changes... including the possible demise of the airline itself.



Agree, especially in today's airline financial situations.

Cheers


----------



## Jimster (Feb 20, 2009)

*Irritating*

I had one of the most irritating attempts to book a ticket that I have ever had.  I went to book a multi leg ticket on line with Delta.  It took a long time because i had to get each leg right.  When I got all done (including fee payment) the website kicked out my reservation and said it could not be completed.  I had to call Delta and I said I wanted to book this ticket but it didn't allow it.  They said: Well let's see if we can do it.  I said fine- but I already did it.  They said: Well if we do it, we'll charge a booking fee.  I said: That's why I did it on line.  They said well if we do it we charge a fee.  I said I know and there is nothing wrong with what i did- it just didn't complete the reservation.  I asked to talk to a supervisor.  Of course, she had to start all over again from the very beginning on this 5 leg trip.  Same answer.  When it was all said and done (over 2 hours later), I got the same flights and the same reservation I had on line, the only difference is Delta nicked me for their booking fee.  I wonder how many times they do this to customers just to collect a booking fee.  My guess is quite often.  GEEZ HOW SLEEZEY


----------



## x3 skier (Feb 20, 2009)

Jimster said:


> I had one of the most irritating attempts to book a ticket that I have ever had.  I went to book a multi leg ticket on line with Delta.  It took a long time because i had to get each leg right.  When I got all done (including fee payment) the website kicked out my reservation and said it could not be completed.  I had to call Delta and I said I wanted to book this ticket but it didn't allow it.  They said: Well let's see if we can do it.  I said fine- but I already did it.  They said: Well if we do it, we'll charge a booking fee.  I said: That's why I did it on line.  They said well if we do it we charge a fee.  I said I know and there is nothing wrong with what i did- it just didn't complete the reservation.  I asked to talk to a supervisor.  Of course, she had to start all over again from the very beginning on this 5 leg trip.  Same answer.  When it was all said and done (over 2 hours later), I got the same flights and the same reservation I had on line, the only difference is Delta nicked me for their booking fee.  I wonder how many times they do this to customers just to collect a booking fee.  My guess is quite often.  GEEZ HOW SLEEZEY



Had a similar experience about 6 months ago and it was taken care of with no fee and no Supervisor intervention. Random responses or have they changed the rules?  

I am/was a Silver Medallion Member so that might be the reason.

Cheers


----------



## Talent312 (Feb 20, 2009)

Jimster said:


> ... When it was all said and done (over 2 hours later), I got the same flights and the same reservation I had on line, the only difference is Delta nicked me for their booking fee.  I wonder how many times they do this to customers just to collect a booking fee.  My guess is quite often...



I doubt that their computer choked on your reservation just so they could collect a fee.  They'd likely prefer to employ even fewer employees.  I have encountered hiccups from other reservation systems and usually, trying again later or going to another internet agency is a simpler solution.


----------



## Jimster (Feb 21, 2009)

*fee*

Actually, I talked at length to the supervisor.  I explained what happened.  I told her I would be more than happy to do it on line for the 3 or 4th time even though I had already spent 2 hours on what should have taken 10 minutes.  She said- No- only we can do it.  There will be a fee.  I got the impression that I was not alone in this problem.  She said when that happens we always charge a fee.  I guess what I am saying is given the tone of the conversation I felt it was clear they didn't want me to do the reservation on line.  They wanted to collect a fee- BTW this was an award ticket that otherwise would have been very cheap for such a long and involved trip.  I did everything right on- line.  Even if they had to book it- no fee should  have been charged.  It wasn't my problem- it was theirs.  They ended up booking the flights exactly as I had done. Also after i was done (and I wasnt pleasant i admit) the supervisor locked my account and caused me all sorts of difficulty getting back into the site.  I had to call back and ask it be unlocked.  Twice I was told it wasn't locked.  The third time the CSR said: "Oh the supervisor locked that."  Let me fix it.  That was no accident I assure you.  I have very little to say of a positive nature when it comes to Delta.  In addition to poor customer service, they have single handedly tried to dismantle frequent flyer programs with their changes.  They are the RCI of airlines.


----------



## Talent312 (Feb 21, 2009)

Jimster said:


> Actually, I talked at length to the supervisor.  I explained what happened.  I told her I would be more than happy to do it on line for the 3 or 4th time even though I had already spent 2 hours on what should have taken 10 minutes.  She said- No- only we can do it.  There will be a fee... BTW this was an *award ticket*.  (emphasis added)



I might have said, "Isn't that special," hung up and given the phone a finger.
But the "award ticket" is the missing link here.

From its inception, Delta's online award booking system has been inflexibile.  I've used it several times, but once, whem I used it to book 1st class R/T flights between Florida and Hawaii, it took me several days of tinkering.  It would have been easy to give up and make one of those fee-generating calls.  But I still don't think that they want the fee; rather they want to discourage you from making any customized award reservation.


----------



## Jimster (Feb 21, 2009)

*award ticket*

Yes, I noticed I hadn't indicated an award ticket in my original post- that is why i added that.  Believe me, I did more than ultimately hang up.  I was soooooooooooooooooo angry.


----------

