# AMEX SPG credit card



## slomac (May 1, 2012)

I want to get one of these cards.  The web site offers 25,000 points for applying. shoudl I do this or should I wait for a better offer?


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## Sea Six (May 1, 2012)

I use my card for everything I can - love those StarPoints!


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## rebrewer (May 1, 2012)

slomac said:


> I want to get one of these cards.  The web site offers 25,000 points for applying. shoudl I do this or should I wait for a better offer?



I haven't seen better thank 25k point offered.  I put EVERYTHING on this card.  Points addicted.

Bob


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## NerdAlert (May 1, 2012)

Plus, pay your Starwood MF on it and get double points--Yes!


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## MichaelColey (May 1, 2012)

I've never seen them change their signup offer.

This has been our favorite card for many years (maybe close to 10 now?).


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## Liz Wolf-Spada (May 1, 2012)

I've had that card since I was a CTA state council rep and all our meetings were at Sheraton hotels. I love it. It's what gets us to Hawaii every year!
Liz


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## DavidnRobin (May 1, 2012)

AMEX SPG is rated one of the top CCs - also 25K SPs is great - we have built ours to 300K, and have used about 300K (of which 180K was as a SVO incentive)

Just stayed at the Petaluma Sheraton - and got upgraded to a great corner room - as SPG Gold (yet again... even though some continue to say Gold is not worth it...)


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## DebBrown (May 1, 2012)

My credit card of choice too and I don't even own SPG.  I like the fact that we can use the points for Starwood stays or transfer to airlines as needed.  We used spg points for stays in pricey areas such as London and Paris where we could never have afforded the nicer hotels otherwise.

Deb


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## MichaelColey (May 1, 2012)

DavidnRobin said:


> Just stayed at the Petaluma Sheraton - and got upgraded to a great corner room - as SPG Gold (yet again... even though some continue to say Gold is not worth it...)


Upgrades for Golds (that's what I am) aren't that frequent or big domestically, but little upgrades (like to a corner room or a club floor) can be nice.



DebBrown said:


> I like the fact that we can use the points for Starwood stays or transfer to airlines as needed. We used spg points for stays in pricey areas such as London and Paris where we could never have afforded the nicer hotels otherwise.


So true.  There are some great values for hotels in some areas, and the airline transfers are a tremendous value (as long as you get good values out of your airline miles).  The Flights & Nights and Cash & Point options are both great as well.

I love that I get Gold status from $30k in annual spending on the card.  (I usually put FAR more than that on it.)


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## Ken555 (May 2, 2012)

This is the card which just keeps giving. Yesterday I redeemed ~170,000 StarPoints for hotels in Europe this fall, including the upgrade to a specialty select room at three hotels and c&p at two others. Not that I would, but the best refundable rate available (as of yesterday, which was AAA rate at two of them) was over US$10k, or about $0.062 per StarPoint. When calc at just $250 per night (which is what I would consider an excellent rate and easily justifiable for a basic room at a good hotel in Europe) it works out to $0.022 per StarPoint. I calc this to continue my justification that this is more valuable to me than a 2% cash back card. And, we get to stay in fabulous hotels (one of which is even including breakfast daily with the room) that I would not have paid for otherwise.


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## tahoeJoe (May 2, 2012)

*Earnings Ratio?*

What is the $ to points earnings ratio on the card? 1 point per dollar? 2 points per dollar spent? Do points accumulatec by staying a Starwood hotel earn at a higher rate? Also, what is the annual fee? Thanks.


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## jarta (May 2, 2012)

Information about the Amex/Starwood card (there is small print; still the best card around, IMO):

http://www304.americanexpress.com/getthecard/learn-about/Starwood-Preferred

Salty


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## LisaRex (May 2, 2012)

The downside to the SPG card is that you usually only earn 1 SP per dollar spent on purchases.  However, if you transfer to many airlines it's 1.25 airline points to each SP, which beats most of the airline cards for everyday spending.   I used to use my Delta AMEX more often because it had Double Miles Everyday on things like gas and groceries.  Since they discontinued that benefit, I moved my spending to the SPG AMEX.  

If you stay in hotels a lot, you'll find that Starwood redemptions are far more generous than other hotel programs.  For instance, a category 5 hotel in the Marriott program costs 20-25,000 MRs.  A category 5 hotel in the Starwood system costs 12-16,000 SPs, plus you get 5th night free.  If you stay 5 nights, you can save 50% staying in Starwood vs. Marriott.

Also, Starwood offers Cash & Points stays at many hotels, which can really help save both points and dollars.


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## jarta (May 2, 2012)

Instead of using them or using SVN to trade all my Lagunamar weeks, I convert 1 week (at least) each year to SPG Starpoints.

Converting is free for 5 Star Elites and Starwood adds a 10% bonus.  So, my Platinum Lagunamar weeks convert to 79,200 Starpoints.  When the points are transferred to air miles, Starwood adds a 20% bonus.  

I end up with just about 100,000 air miles for $1,250.  That's enough for a round trip business class ticket from the US to South America or Europe (South Pacific or Africa take 110,000 air miles).  I priced Chicago-Munich last night.  A round trip non-stop business class ticket on Lufthansa for this July was over $6,000.

Converting doesn't recoup all the money that I spent for my only developer purchases, the Lagunamar weeks.  But, converting substantial StarOptions to air miles each year helps make lemonade from the lemons.  I figure I'll be working with free timeshares in about a dozen more years.  lol!   Salty


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## ekinggill (May 2, 2012)

You almost always are better off having a couple cash back credit cards in your wallet.  It is relatively easy to get 1.25% back, or $312.50 on $25k spent.  use your cards and bonuses right, e.g. card A gives you 5% on gas and card B gives 5% on groceries, 2 or 2.5% in total is very doable, or $500-$625.

Most people will not get close to $625 of value out of 25,000 starwood points.  Before I get dog piled, I am sure there are plenty of SPG miracle workers in here who can.  My point is for the average SPG member, banking the cash back will yield more vacation than SPG points...and you have the option to spend the cash to fix you car or pay your villa maintenance if need be.


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## VacationForever (May 2, 2012)

ekinggill said:


> You almost always are better off having a couple cash back credit cards in your wallet.  It is relatively easy to get 1.25% back, or $312.50 on $25k spent.  use your cards and bonuses right, e.g. card A gives you 5% on gas and card B gives 5% on groceries, 2 or 2.5% in total is very doable, or $500-$625.
> 
> Most people will not get close to $625 of value out of 25,000 starwood points.  Before I get dog piled, I am sure there are plenty of SPG miracle workers in here who can.  My point is for the average SPG member, banking the cash back will yield more vacation than SPG points...and you have the option to spend the cash to fix you car or pay your villa maintenance if need be.



Life is about simplicity.  Having more cards means more stress.  1 Amex and 1 Visa or MasterCard and now you are covered by all places that accept credit cards except for shops in a few countries that strangely accept a few smaller brand cards only.


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## levatino (May 2, 2012)

*30,000 starpoints offered last year*

http://thepointsguy.com/2011/07/starwood-american-express-30000-point-sign-up-bonus/


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## DavidnRobin (May 3, 2012)

ekinggill said:


> You almost always are better off having a couple cash back credit cards in your wallet.  It is relatively easy to get 1.25% back, or $312.50 on $25k spent.  use your cards and bonuses right, e.g. card A gives you 5% on gas and card B gives 5% on groceries, 2 or 2.5% in total is very doable, or $500-$625.
> 
> Most people will not get close to $625 of value out of 25,000 starwood points.  Before I get dog piled, I am sure there are plenty of SPG miracle workers in here who can.  My point is for the average SPG member, banking the cash back will yield more vacation than SPG points...and you have the option to spend the cash to fix you car or pay your villa maintenance if need be.



While I will buy into it takes $$$ to travel and one shouldn't forget that with this type of card - and I do have a cash back card (VISA) along with the AMEX SPG that was rated one of the top CCs - and not by SPG . 

However,  it is very easy to get $625 out of 25K SPs - we do it locally - easy - 2 nites at the Westin Verasa (Napa) - which we have received upgrades - and this doesn't include 5th nite free - which we don't use since we just stay the weekend. Also, stay at Sheraton Petaluma for just 4K per nite - same deal.  Plus no taxes - double points on stuff you buy while at a S* hotel - plus we pay our SVO MFs - also double points on a big cost - for us.

No miracle working needed - especially if you use them for Europe stays - it is way easy to get more value than that - especially if you prefer to stay in high end hotels.

If you can't make use of the points - then get a cash back card... but if own SVO and stay in Starwood hotels - definitely worth it.

As to the other thread about buying SPs - my break point for buying SPs would be 1.35 cents per SP - but that is us.


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## jarta (May 3, 2012)

DavidnRobin said:


> However,  it is very easy to get $625 out of 25K SPs - we do it locally - easy - 2 nites at the Westin Verasa (Napa) - which we have received upgrades - and this doesn't include 5th nite free - which we don't use since we just stay the weekend. ...
> As to the other thread about buying SPs - my break point for buying SPs would be 1.35 cents per SP - but that is us.



David,   ...   Sometimes I think your posts are a little too disjointed for most TUG posters and lurkers.  I translate.

If you can get $625 very easily out of 25K Starpoints at the Westin Verasa (Napa), that's 2.5 cents per SP (even more in Europe as you admit).  Yet, your "break point for buying SPs would be 1.35 cents per SP."  Those statements appear to conflict, but they really do not.  

Why would your "break point for buying" be 1.15 cents per SP below your break even point of cost to admitted value?  The answer is you would not buy anything just to break even on value.

Your posting style obscures that further profit factor by using the odd term "break point for buying" rather than comparing cost per SP to value per SP.  Adding "but that's just us" does little to disclose the further profit motive you have to most trying to make sense of your post.  

Nothing wrong with getting even more per SPs for less and making a further profit to boot.  If you won't buy SPs unless the cost is 1.15 cents less per SP than the value you can use them for at Westin Verasa, be my guest.  But, maybe you should clarify that you expect a profit over value to you every time you buy SPs.  

I don't think your technique proves SP value is only 1.35 cents or less.  It actually proves SPs have value above 1.35 cents per SP - very easily 2.5 cents per SP.  However, unless you have an additional saving of about 45%, you are not interested in purchasing any.

BTW, when I convert my (at least) 1 Lagunamar week per year to Starpoints, I get 79,200 Starpoints for around $1,250 in MF.  That's 1.60 cents per SP.  I hope you approve, but that's enough incentive to me below 2.5 cents to "buy" the SPs that way.  (I use the SPs at Category 5 and above hotels and further conversion to air miles for business class tickets).    Salty


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## LisaRex (May 3, 2012)

You really should familiarize yourself with each credit card program and then overlay it over your spending patterns and priorities to determine what the best card is for you.  

First, analyze your spending patterns to see WHERE you're spending your money.  If the great majority of your spending is on hotels and dining out, you should investigate which cards offer the best accumulation rate in those two categories.  Most hotel branded credit cards offer very nice bonuses for charging hotel stays on their card.  If they offer double miles on dining out, then that's even better.  Because, obviously, the quicker you can accumulate points, the better.  

Secondly, determine ahead of time how you'd like to redeem your points.  If you want to save for a great vacation, it'd be nice to realize in the beginning that Marriott has a much bigger presence in the Caribbean than Starwood.  Or that Hilton doesn't have any hotels on Maui. 

Finally, go to Flyertalk and stay abreast on lucrative signing bonuses.  There have been some very nice signing bonuses in the last few months from CapOne, Chase and Citibank.   

I signed up for a CapOne Venture card during their promo last year where they matched your airline mile account, up to 100,000, if you spent $1000 spend in the first 3 months.  I pocketed 110,000 CapOne miles, worth $1100 -- and the annual fee was waived.  And the $1100 wasn't a fuzzy number because it's cash back. Plus it earns double miles on everything.  Just putting one daughter's tuition on the card earns us 50,000 C/O miles per year.  That's $500 towards our next vacation. 

I have to say that I love the freedom of booking any airline and any hotel and getting paid back in cash.  No more searching high and low for award flights for four.  No more booking crappy itineraries just because it was a low tier award flight.   I just pick where I want to go, when I want to go, and get reimbursed in cash.  Plus, I still accumulate the miles/points on the airline and hotel I choose.


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## DavidnRobin (May 3, 2012)

jarta - perhaps it is best not respond to my disjointed posts - and I will not to your disjointed posts...

I made my point - and used only my own criteria for how I get value (and not yours or anyone elses...) - and what MY price point is (not yours or anyone elses...). I am very aware what your position is - and was responding to the poster who made a comment about value - and not to you - in the future, please refrain (it is easy - just block me...) - thanks


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## jarta (May 3, 2012)

David,   ...   It's easy.  Just block me if you don't like me commenting that your posted price point is less than the posted value you admit you could receive.

But, there's absolutely nothing wrong with setting your price point below the value received.  The whole point is to get more value for less money.  How far less money bekow the value before a person decides to buy is a personal decision.  Your price point is lower than most might buy at for the same value, but it seems to work for you.  Maybe you have no use you could/would make of lots of SPs.

BTW, I'd sure love to know where you suggest we buy SPs which are for sale for 1.35 cents per SP?  I've been around here since 2/08 and I've never seen a price like that.  I can only squeeze the cost down to 1.60 cents per SP by converting a fairly low MF resort, Lagunamar, and getting the 10% bonus and having any conversion fee waived for being 5 Star Elite.  I'm sure others here would like to know where and how they can make purchases at 1.35 cents per SP.

Even a conversion of a true Plat SDO in SVN (with 2 other SVN weeks paying the annual SVN fee) has the 148,100 StarOptions convert to 67,000 Starpoints.  With the annual MF at $986.08, that comes out to 1.47 cents per SP - still above your price point.  So, where do you find these SPs at 1.35 cents (or less) so that you could return to those rooms at Westin Verasa you value at $625 (with a possible upgrade) two nights a year?

If you can't actually buy SPs (or convert weeks to SPs) for 1.35 cents per SP, isn't setting a price point at that unattainable low price just another way of saying you wouldn't buy SPs irrespective of whatever their value might be?   Salty


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## MichaelColey (May 3, 2012)

jarta said:


> BTW, I'd sure love to know where you suggest we buy SPs which are for sale for 1.35 cents per SP?


You can "buy" them for 1 cent each by using a Starwood AmEx instead of a 1% cashback card.  Anytime we choose how to spend our money or how to pay, based on rewards we might get, we're essentially buying those rewards with the opportunity loss of doing the next best option.

For instance, I was about 900k miles away from 2MM on AA when they announced the changes to their lifetime status program.  I made some very major changes that weren't necessarily the best redemption options (earning 1 AA mile per dollar spent instead of 1 Starpoint per dollar [which could have got me 1.25 AA miles]) and incurred a pretty large annual fee ($450) on a new credit card, because the value of lifetime Platinum status is worth it to me.  In a few more months, I'll be at 2MM and will have lifetime Platinum status.


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## jarta (May 3, 2012)

I don't think buying $25,000 worth of goods and services to receive an award of 25,000 SPs (or any credit card points from any credit card company) for using a card is buying anything more than the goods and services.

Not saying you can't accumulate SPs by credit card use, but it's not buying SPs.  I have and use both Platinum Business Amex and Starwood Amex when I am making tax deductible expenses with money my companies spend.  I know how to use both.  I am playing with tax deductible money and the government's largesse.  Most timeshare owners deal in after tax disposable income. 

But, the Starwood Amex card is so popular precisely because the value of the use of the SPs earned given the credit card costs expended can exceed the value of the benefits earned over the costs expended for purchases made using any other credit card (using any type of money).  You just have to have an itch to travel and stay in nice places and know how to play with the SPs.

But, you can't buy SPs for 1 cent per SP.     Salty


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## SteveS1 (May 3, 2012)

I wanted to add something to answer the question from OP. I received my SPG Amex card in February. I received the initial 10,000 bonus SP right after my first use of the card, it went to my SPG account right away even before my first statement. However, I never received the additional 15,000 bonus SP and I have long since charged $5000. I called Amex, and I called Starwood to ask about my eligibility for the additional 15K bonus SP and they said the system shows that I am not eligible, that my bonus is only 10K I already received. 

Although I didn't print the screen when I applied, I was pretty sure the promotion hadn't changed since Feb. So then I reviewed the promo carefully, looked carefully at the terms and found this statement about the extra 15K SP bonus included in the fine print:

_"You must use your Starwood Preferred Guest Credit Card to complete $5,000 of eligible spending by the end of your first six months of Cardmembership, based on the date of your Card approval. 15,000 Starpoints will be credited to your account 8 to 12 weeks after you reach the spend threshold. Offer not available to existing consumer American Express Card members. "_

So I am pretty sure it was the last sentence of these terms that got me. I *did* have another Amex card which I canceled only after receiving the SPG card. 

Just a warning, it isn't clear in the promotion, but if you have another Amex you may only get 10K SP bonus, not the full 25K bonus.

Other than that the card has been "as advertised", I did offset this mistake by getting a card for my spouse.


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## jarta (May 3, 2012)

michael,   ...   One last thing about credit cards and the concept of "buying."

I consider that you buy SPs when you give Starwood money or something of demonstrable worth and you get back SPs.  As I stated, you can have an effective cost if you trade your annual MFs paid at a place like Lagunamar of around 1.6 cents per SP.

I think you should consider that there is a reason a lot of vendors don't accept American Express cards for a credit card transaction.  That's because AmEx charges higher fees for the transaction than Visa or Mastercard.  http://www.fivecentnickel.com/2009/07/03/credit-card-processing-fees/ 

If AmEx (or anyone else) charges 3% on the transaction, it gets 3% off the top (without counting renewal fees, interest or late payment fees).  In effect, you give AmEX 3% of the purchase price and you get SPs equal to a cost of 3 cents (not 1 cent) per dollar of transaction processed.  (The actual numbers are a lot more complicated.  Westin 5 Star can run you through it.  He says he owns a processing company.)

And, if you don't think the prices of the vendor for the goods and services are increased to cover the processing fees, you are sadly mistaken.  The vendor does not eat the fee with a decreased profit margin.  It's passed on to you through a higher price.  

There is no free lunch and, any way you look at it, you are paying something to Amex for those SPs.  And, it's a lot more than 1 cent per SP.  (Why would AmEx be so generous with the SPs if it was losing money by doing so?)

http://truecostofcredit.com/372542   Salty


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## VacationForever (May 3, 2012)

SteveS1 said:


> I wanted to add something to answer the question from OP. I received my SPG Amex card in February. I received the initial 10,000 bonus SP right after my first use of the card, it went to my SPG account right away even before my first statement. However, I never received the additional 15,000 bonus SP and I have long since charged $5000. I called Amex, and I called Starwood to ask about my eligibility for the additional 15K bonus SP and they said the system shows that I am not eligible, that my bonus is only 10K I already received.
> 
> Although I didn't print the screen when I applied, I was pretty sure the promotion hadn't changed since Feb. So then I reviewed the promo carefully, looked carefully at the terms and found this statement about the extra 15K SP bonus included in the fine print:
> 
> ...



I have several active Amex cards when I enrolled.  I remember it was $15K within 6 months to get the next 15K bonus and I received the full 25K bonus when I hit $15K within 3 months.  I wonder in Feb when you were enrolled if it was $15K or $5K as the way it is currently stated on the website.  You may want to call them to check and chock up to $15K before 6 months is up.


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## Ken555 (May 4, 2012)

Keep in mind that many would consider the opportunity cost of the money used to purchase the mandatory week which is used in conversion of a week to StarPoints. It's not as simple as assuming the maintenance fee directly converts to StarPoints and is a specific, easy to determine, amount. It's actually quite higher, since Starwood has your money which you spent to purchase the deed. This is why converting is still a developer purchase (or requal) benefit, and not available to all. It's just not as simple as some would make you think. The StarPoints I acquire from AMEX are a direct benefit, and comparable to a cash back card or other direct replacement. I have not purchased a real property deed which use I am converting in lieu of use, such as is done with the conversion of a week to StarPoints.


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## jarta (May 4, 2012)

"It's not as simple as assuming the maintenance fee directly converts to StarPoints "

But, it is just that simple.  The maintenance fee directly converts to SPs.  By paying the MF and complying with the rules, you have the right to use the week - or rent out the week to someone else to make money - or trade into WKORV from SDO using II and save money - or, if you are in the SVN, bank the StarOptions for use somewhere else - or, again if you are in the SVN, convert to SP.  

Why do renting for a profit and using II to trade receive unanimous approval on this forum as having value but converting is felt to have no value?  

I think it is because only SVN members have the ability to convert and the non-SVN members here are jealous of the great value over MF cost that can be obtained by conversion to SP.  So, they pooh-pooh the benefits of converting to SP.  After 4 years of demonstrating the value of converting to SP and nobody challenging the math, it's just sour grapes, IMO.

Off to sunny SoCal this morning to use some converted SPs!   Salty


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## Ken555 (May 4, 2012)

Nonsense. Of course, others will understand that you quoted out of context. My only point is that you don't even admit that there are other costs other than the MF when everyone else understands that you need to pay Starwood for the deed in order to convert to StarPoints, and that the expense for that deed should be accounted in some fashion. StarPoints acquired thru hotel stays or credit card usage have no similar up front expense, and therefore are as simple as they seem. Converting a timeshare to StarPoints should include some increase in cost of the points for the actual money spent for the deed, without which you wouldn't be able to convert in the first place. Of course, once you have the deed converting is a simple process...after all, Starwood wants you to buy more developer weeks (at huge profit for SVN).

I wouldn't have replied at all had you only included that there are other associated (and required) expenses which need to be made in order to convert to StarPoints when you mention conversion. Your incomplete statements often discuss the benefit of the conversion without the required developer purchase, which can easily paint a partial picture of truth. I suggest you just be more complete with your summary in future so readers understand fully what is required in order to convert a week to StarPoints.

And, note that I am not taking about the relative merits of converting the week to timeshare here, only that I believe your posts should be accurate in regards to what is needed, per Starwood, in order to make the conversion in the first place. Your only reference in this thread is:



> Converting doesn't recoup all the money that I spent for my only developer purchases, the Lagunamar weeks. But, converting substantial StarOptions to air miles each year helps make lemonade from the lemons. I figure I'll be working with free timeshares in about a dozen more years.



Even simply including 1/20th of the initial purchase of the week (or perhaps less, since you could argue it's actually less since you retroed a week with the purchase) would add value to your posts by being more complete and objective than they are now.


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## mstoyanov (May 4, 2012)

I am sorry jarta but it is not that simple. It will be THAT simple if you could buy WLR for $1 and then only pay MFs to convert to SP but when you have to spend $20k on something that drops to almost $0 you can not ignore depreciation and opportunity cost associated  with it. And whether you buy this WLR from developer to convert to points or to rent or to exchange it is the same. What makes it bad financial decision (at least for me) is not what you plan to do with WLR (convert to SP, rent, exchange) but the sunk cost of developer purchase. 
The opportunity cost of $20k loss is at minimum 3% each year (for me it is more than 5% since my investment return is >5%) and that loss is compounded each year. So by wasting $20k on EOY WLR I am also looking at minimum $600 opportunity cost ($1000 for me personally).
So the true cost for me is more like $2200 for each use year and it is guaranteed to rise (due to MFs increase and compounding on opportunity cost)  while the value of points will continue to drop.

I can easily afford to go all the way to 5* but I will never do it since it doesn't make financial sense for me. And this has nothing to do with "envy" or "jealousy" but simply common sense. Of course everyone is free to spend his/her money the way he/she sees fit but when you try to justify this as a good financial decision then there is no way I am not going to criticize it on the actual financial grounds. Maybe there are other non-financial benefits for you that apply to your personal decisions but please don't try to sell it to me as making sense financially.

As for people obtaining these points from credit cards - you have a point that cost of CC rewards is passed to consumers as higher prices but unfortunately many(most that I tried) big chain stores does not give you discounts for paying cash. I have tried it for example with Home Depot and Lowes for larger projects and they will not give me 3% discount for paying cash (which is funny because they had no problems giving me 10% for a coupon at the same time). So for us consumers it makes sense to go with credit cards that gets the best benefits and to base our valuation on these accrual rates.





jarta said:


> But, it is just that simple.  The maintenance fee directly converts to SPs.  By paying the MF and complying with the rules, you have the right to use the week - or rent out the week to someone else to make money - or trade into WKORV from SDO using II and save money - or, if you are in the SVN, bank the StarOptions for use somewhere else - or, again if you are in the SVN, convert to SP.
> 
> Why do renting for a profit and using II to trade receive unanimous approval on this forum as having value but converting is felt to have no value?
> 
> ...


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## YYJMSP (May 4, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> Even simply including 1/20th of the initial purchase of the week (or perhaps less, since you could argue it's actually less since you retroed a week with the purchase) would add value to your posts by being more complete and objective than they are now.



In my particular case, my cost per StarPoint is 2.2c just based on the 2012 MFs, or 4.1c if you include amortizing the up-front costs over 20yrs.

Obviously, a huge difference -- it basically doubles the numbers being thrown around.

I suspect other owners may have a slightly better ratio, as we have 5 developer + 3 requalified weeks, so we're a little high on the up-front cost.

So, when they offer you the chance to purchase StarPoints at ~2c, it's a good deal in comparison to converting weeks.


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## LisaRex (May 4, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> Even simply including 1/20th of the initial purchase of the week (or perhaps less, since you could argue it's actually less since you retroed a week with the purchase) would add value to your posts by being more complete and objective than they are now.



That (1/20) is the figure I use, too.  I have to say that it does make me chuckle to see some posters bragging about their incredible ROI by only using the cost of MFs in their equation:

Salesman: "You should buy this Lexus SUV because it's really cool, super convenient...and 25% more affordable than taking the bus."

Customer: "MORE affordable?  How's that?"

Salesman:  "It's easy. Just do the math and compare your daily costs.  It costs $2, or $4 per day, to take the bus the 10 miles to and from work.   For the same $4, you can buy one gallon of gas.  This car gets 25 miles to the gallon.  By driving, you're getting an ADDITIONAL 5 miles per dollar!  That's 25% more!"

Customer: "Wow. That sounds great.  But I don't have to buy the bus.  I have to buy the car, in order to take advantage of that great gas mileage.  Right?  I mean, you're not going to GIVE me the car, are you?" 

Salesman:  "No, but once you write us the check for $50,000, or better yet -- put it on terms and finance it over 6 years -- you'll forget all about the upfront money.  Out of sight; out of mind!"

Customer:  "Have you included the cost of repairs in your equation...?"  

Salesman: "Listen, the point is that it's not always about MONEY.  Sometimes you have to think about your IMAGE.  You're too good to ride the bus. This car is not just convenient; it's luxurious! Sooo much nicer than taking a bus.  Look, it has leather seats, and personalized climate zones, not to mention really spiffy cup holders."

Customer:  "I do enjoy a good cup holder."

Salesman:  "And if you buy from us, we'll also enroll you in our Elite Club for no additional charge."

Customer:  "That sounds impressive.  What is that all about?"

Salemsan:  "Well, for starters, whenever you stop by the dealership for oil changes, you can use this special, dedicated "elite" lane. Plus, all the attendants will start out the conversation by saying, "Welcome back, Mr. Elite Club member." 

Customer: "Finally, the respect I've yearned for, but have never gotten because I'm a cantankerous, ill-mannered contrarian!" 

Salesman:  "As an Elite Club member, you'll also be entitled to 10% off our oil changes, which are only marked up 200% vs the ordinary garage down the street."

Customer: "That's got to add up over the years."

Salesman:  "I know.  I mean, with all these savings, we'll be writing you a check soon!"

Customer:  "Let me ask you this.  I've seen this very same car advertised in my local paper for only $35,000.  Same make, same model, same year. 

Salesman: "Yes, and while that may SEEM like a fantastic deal on paper, do you really want to spend your life driving around in a car that was in someone else's name first?"

Customer: "Does it really matter? I mean, who would know?"

Salesman: "The oil change people would know because there's a little crown icon next to your name if you're an Elite Club member."

Customer:  "Mmmm."

Salesman:  "Wait a minute.   I haven't even begun to explain about our Elite Exchange program, where we ask you to give up your Lexus SUV for a week, in exchange for 3 days in a Mini Cooper." 

Customer: "It's going to take a lot of sugar to turn that sour lemon into lemonade."

Salesman:  "Well, let me just say..."  (waggles his eyebrows) ...that the Mini Cooper is in Paris!"

Customer: "I love Paris!"


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## pianodinosaur (May 4, 2012)

I have an SPG AmEx.  It comes in very handy when I want to stay at a Starwood resort for a meeting.  We do not own a Starwood TimeShare nor have we ever exchanged into one but that may change.  I have had my card since 2004 and now have about 100,000 points. We are planning our first redemption next year.


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## Ken555 (May 4, 2012)

LisaRex said:


> That (1/20) is the figure I use, too.  I have to say that it does make me chuckle to see some posters bragging about their incredible ROI by only using the cost of MFs in their equation:



Nicely said


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## DavidnRobin (May 4, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> Nicely said



Agree - and (LR) I really enjoyed reading the Lexus analogy.

In addition with the SVO cost factor for ROI (as said) - it cost more to travel that just airfare and lodging - including having the available time-off (since time=$ for folks that work and have limited vacation).  Plus, SP value depends on how may you already have or need to use (which depends on the ability to use them - versus other methods - like using FF miles, other hotel points, or cash).

It is correct that SPs likely cannot be bought from SVO for less than 1.85cents/SP - this is why I do not buy them and pass on these great 'deals' - (especially the standard 10% discount off of 3.5c/SP) and accumulate them using the AMEX-SPG card instead (~300K now).  An analysis done on SPG FT - put the value of 1.35c/SP for airlines with a 1:1 exchange under normal conditions, and I tend to agree with that.

If I did have a need - I would considering purchasing SPs for <=2c/SP, but only if I could find usefulness in redeeming them (vs. other methods of obtaining flights or hotels - miles/cash/etc.). However - I *[meaning... ME] * only put a nominal use value of ~2.25 cents per SP, and if I get more value (which I often do)... then, gravy.  My value of 2.25c/SP prevents the natural tendency of using fuzzy math to justify their worth - and also agrees with a low-end consensus use value from experienced SPG FT travelers.

IMO - YMMV

PS - pianodinosaur - careful not to let the SPs expire.


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## jarta (May 4, 2012)

pianodinosaur,   ...   Those who don't use SPs creatively pooh-pooh their value in use all the time.  They are so clueless they don't even realize that SPs earned by hotel stays and credit card use (like yours) never expire.  Don't be frightened by the naysayers who do not use and, therefore, do not know.  Enjoy spending the SPs - any time you decide to.   Salty


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## MichaelColey (May 4, 2012)

A classic, Lisa!  Love it!


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## J&JFamily (May 5, 2012)

*Excellent Summary*



LisaRex said:


> because I'm a cantankerous, ill-mannered contrarian!"



Priceless!!!


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## Lulubelle (May 5, 2012)

I just wanted to say that I love my Starwood Amex.  I have accumulated many points over the years and used it for several Sheraton/Westin stays.  Regardless of the analogies, it works for me.


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## DeniseM (May 5, 2012)

Lulubelle said:


> I just wanted to say that I love my Starwood Amex.  I have accumulated many points over the years and used it for several Sheraton/Westin stays.  Regardless of the analogies, it works for me.



Hi Lulubelle - No one here will disagree with you about credit card points, but many of us feel that converting one's *timeshare* to points is a poor value.


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## DeniseM (May 5, 2012)

Lisa - You are a hoot!  :hysterical: 



> Customer: "Finally, the respect I've yearned for, but have never gotten because I'm a cantankerous, ill-mannered contrarian!"


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## ValleyGirl (May 6, 2012)

*Me Too*

Wanting to add my 2 cents, trying very hard not to quote and thereby ruffle feathers, gain another valuable increase in my "total post #" and caveating with the obligatory IMO! 

I feel the above discussion looks at the SP cost/value issue from different sides of the door (one side labeled "Entrance" and the other "Exit"). 

I believe the math fully supports never buying/"Entrance" a TS from a developer and using all the salesperson's fuzzy math/reasoning to overcome your objections and thereby allowing for an emotional decision. That said - I agree with the 1/20th purchase price added for cost/value when trying to determine the cost of exchanging a week for SPs in the general sense.

"On The Other Hand" (Ref - Nationwide commercial)
If one already owns a timeshare, and is already obligated to pay mx fees then:
When one finds they cannot use their week/"Exit", cannot sched a convienent time, wish to give a vacation at a different location to a family member then banking, exchanging for SPs, deposit to II, or renting provide different alternatives for valuing your decision and Salty's valuation is also accurate.

The CC issue seems to go down a similar trail - again if you are going to use a CC and there is no difference in price whether you use cash or credit - then you simply use the CC that provides you with the most value.  For most on this BB that would be AMEX SPG.

I will hold myself back from a further discussion of exchanging for Airline Miles!:ignore:


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