# MVC Hybrid Plan



## Millen5569 (Nov 2, 2020)

Good evening. After spending mannnnnnyyyyy hours reading the forums in the past and over the past weekend I have bucked up and joined TUG this evening. The information found here is outstanding.
My question relates to a MVC hybrid plan- is there any information with more detail that I can find?

backstory: I have been to 3 separate MVC presentations and always turned them down until yesterday. In a moment of weakness I signed a contract, but then came to my senses and rescinded first thing this morning. I also turned down HGVC before. 
The sales folks are now “offering” a hybrid plan. I’ve been searching for details but can’t find much. Up to this point I have found the usual rescind, rescind, rescind advice as well as buying aftermarket resales. 
I will admit that I’m enticed by the ability to have flexibility in my travels. I have a rather flexible schedule, income is solid, and the purchase would not be financed. 
My hope is to utilize the timeshare/points for vacationing when I get out of the game- trying to get out early. 
My fiancé and I love to travel and truly travel all over the world when able to.

if anyone can detail the plan, pros, cons, etc. I am ready to absorb the knowledge Jedi Masters.


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## csalter2 (Nov 2, 2020)

If you could be more specific about your hybrid plan, that would help. I’m assuming by hybrid plan you mean a week plus points was offered to you. Please let us know the unit size, season, cost, and number of points. That will help to provide you with feedback.


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## Millen5569 (Nov 2, 2020)

csalter2 said:


> If you could be more specific about your hybrid plan, that would help. I’m assuming by hybrid plan you mean a week plus points was offered to you. Please let us know the unit size, season, cost, and number of points. That will help to provide you with feedback.


Thank you. I am supposed to talk to them again tomorrow as they called me when I driving home today. I did find another post about this topic after I posted. 
The location he threw out to me on the phone was in Hawaii( unsure which as I was driving and could not take notes) EOY that is “worth” 4750 points. The cost was close to 38,000, which seems high to me for EOY.
I should have told you that the original deal was for 4,000 points at 10.30 per point with 8,000 extra points up front. 
I realized after reviewing it more that 4,000 points really won’t do it. Based off of what I am seeing points listed for that they can be had for about 5.00-6.00 per point IF you can get past MVC ROFR. 
The sales manager told me today that the hybrid will work out to 7-8.00 per point.  Of course I am very skeptical of that.
another item I just thought about is maintenance the same as for owned weeks or points?  I am assuming it is points.


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## StevenTing (Nov 2, 2020)

I would push for a hybrid plan under $7 a point.


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## csalter2 (Nov 3, 2020)

There are several posts about a hybrid bundle in which you are able to buy points and a week. They are usually around $7-$8 per point and sometimes even cheaper. They can be a good deal, but it depends on the properties involved and how you plan to use the timeshare. How many points you want will really depend on how often you want to travel, where you want to travel and when  you want to travel. 

I am not quick to tell everyone to rescind, because it depends on the offer the buyers needs. There are some of us even after being on this site who have bought from the developer, which is Marriott. In your situation, I would have recommended that you rescind because you would have overpaid. 4000 points would have given you a whopping bill around $45,000. That’s too much for points when on Redweek you can get the same points for anywhere between $5-$8.75 per point. That includes Marriott’s $3 per point fee on resale points. I’m very glad you came to your senses. 

The hybrid bundle can be a good deal. The weeks USUALLY but NOT ALL the time have a better maintenance fee per point cost. The cost per point for maintenance fees for Destination points is about .60. So 4000 points is $2400. However, a 2 bedroom platinum oceanfront week at Ocean Pointe which elects to 5375 DC points has a maintenance fee of $1860 which is .34 per point. So in some but not all cases, weeks pay less than points.  For example, a 2 bedroom garden view during gold season elects to 2575 DC points. The maintenance fees are $1905. That gives you a maintenance fee per point of .74. Just note you will pay more for a platinum season than a gold season upfront, but you will get more vacation time with your points and pay less in maintenance fees by buying a week. 

I will say $38,000 for an EOY week does not sound right even with a hybrid bundle. My recommendation would be to find a place you’d like to visit A LOT. If you are going to travel a lot and often not staying a full week, then points might be a good deal. You can really maximize them on Sunday-Friday stays. 

Also note that you get even better prices if you buy more points. You may be able to buy a hybrid bundle that may give you around $6 per point which is like $3.00 per point resale. 

Lastly, some times they will offer a Caribbean week in lieu of the points and then another week. Those can be good deals too, or you can buy a resale week and when they have their summer specials, you can enroll that week with the purchase of points. However, you need to make a plan of what you want to do and how you wish to do it.


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## Dean (Nov 3, 2020)

Millen5569 said:


> Good evening. After spending mannnnnnyyyyy hours reading the forums in the past and over the past weekend I have bucked up and joined TUG this evening. The information found here is outstanding.
> My question relates to a MVC hybrid plan- is there any information with more detail that I can find?
> 
> backstory: I have been to 3 separate MVC presentations and always turned them down until yesterday. In a moment of weakness I signed a contract, but then came to my senses and rescinded first thing this morning. I also turned down HGVC before.
> ...


Long term I think a well placed hybrid purchase at or under $7 PP will be better than resale points at $5 with significant volume.  I'd suggest you rescind while researching if you didn't already.  

Hybrid options include points plus resale week(s) that are enrolled or qualifying weeks (Aruba, St. Kitt's) plus resale weeks enrolled.  Generally the latter is the better choice if you get good weeks.  

Another option is to buy weeks resale and if points are important then enroll with a points purchase or qualifying weeks purchase.  This can be even cheaper AND better in many situations esp when there's volume involved.  It gives you far more control and choices of the underlying weeks.  But for many, just weeks without points is all they need, esp when supplemented with exchanging.  

I'd suggest you plan where, when and how long you want to travel and then look at the points charts and season charts for the resorts in those areas.  Don't put too much effort into areas or resorts you'd like to get to once some day, just mostly the ones that you want to formally plan to go to in the near future and esp the ones you want to visit repeatedly.  

I'd concentrate even more on the underlying weeks including points per weeks and maintenance fees, esp maintenance fees per point.  Don't let them stick you with underlying weeks that suck EVEN if the up front price is better, like Gold Aruba.  Make sure you get Platinum weeks and good view categories if you're going to enroll later or as part of a hybrid.  

I'll echo Carlito's thoughts above, post the specifics of what you're thinking.  The more detail you could give us the better.  Things like how far in advance you could/would plan, where you want to go and for how long and the size units you'd need (sounds like a 1 BR would be OK for the resorts that have them).


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## Millen5569 (Nov 3, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> I would push for a hybrid plan under $7 a point.


Thank you Steven.  I will. Also thank you for the great work on the calculator.


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## Millen5569 (Nov 3, 2020)

Dean said:


> Long term I think a well placed hybrid purchase at or under $7 PP will be better than resale points at $5 with significant volume.  I'd suggest you rescind while researching if you didn't already.
> 
> Hybrid options include points plus resale week(s) that are enrolled or qualifying weeks (Aruba, St. Kitt's) plus resale weeks enrolled.  Generally the latter is the better choice if you get good weeks.
> 
> ...


Thank you Dean. The way you laid this out really has me wondering if a timeshare/points program is right for me. I had rescinded when I originally posted and will not move forward with a Hybrid as of yet. To answer your and Carlito’s question: we go everywhere so it is hard to pick a place that I have to go every year with the exception of Hilton Head(short drive) and Hawaii(just love it). 
Over the past  years we have traveled to:
Italy x 3
Germany x 3
Czech Republic
Austria x 3
Hungary
Peru
Hawaii x 2 
St. Thomas
Aruba
Cayman x 2
Viking River Cruise 
Several different beach vacations in the US. 

I only lay that out to show how much we travel and the variation of where we go. The points are presented as a way to do this...but I’m not sure.  The sales guy showed some destinations that look awesome(Tuscany) but of course not how many points. 
My large vacations are typically planned 6 months or more in advance but sometimes I hold off due to work commitments. 
We also will drop everything and travel on short notice if we get a wild hair.
My fiancé jokes that I have ADHD and can’t sit still. I figure life is too short to stay home. 

I will sit back do more researching and make a determination.
Thanks again for the advice.


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## Fasttr (Nov 3, 2020)

Millen5569 said:


> Thank you Dean. The way you laid this out really has me wondering if a timeshare/points program is right for me. I had rescinded when I originally posted and will not move forward with a Hybrid as of yet. To answer your and Carlito’s question: we go everywhere so it is hard to pick a place that I have to go every year with the exception of Hilton Head(short drive) and Hawaii(just love it).
> Over the past  years we have traveled to:
> Italy x 3
> Germany x 3
> ...


Don’t buy into the program if your primary goal is traveling outside of the MVC resorts.  The non-MVC resort destinations are not usually a good value at all.  Too many entities with their hands in the cookie jar to get good value booking such destinations with DC points.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Nov 3, 2020)

Millen5569 said:


> Good evening. After spending mannnnnnyyyyy hours reading the forums in the past and over the past weekend I have bucked up and joined TUG this evening. The information found here is outstanding.
> My question relates to a MVC hybrid plan- is there any information with more detail that I can find?
> 
> backstory: I have been to 3 separate MVC presentations and always turned them down until yesterday. In a moment of weakness I signed a contract, but then came to my senses and rescinded first thing this morning. I also turned down HGVC before.
> ...




Your best bang for the buck are private party resale weeks.  Granted, you won't have the options of points, but your initial costs and ongoing annual maintenance fees are highly likely to be lower under most circumstances.


.


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## Millen5569 (Nov 3, 2020)

Fasttr said:


> Don’t buy into the program if your primary goal is traveling outside of the MVC resorts.  The non-MVC resort destinations are not usually a good value at all.  Too many entities with their hands in the cookie jar to get good value booking such destinations with DC points.


Thank you Fasttr for your advice.


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## NOLA47 (Nov 3, 2020)

I am just following this thread out of curiosity but can't help but wonder if any timeshare company will satisfy you long term.  With your extensive travel history, what will you do once you've traveled all the destinations within the company you might chose but maintenance fees continue?   Just wonder if you will totally lose interest. That is unless you use the timeshare to frequent the destinations you go all the time like Hilton head etc as you mentioned. (Note: I do realize RCI and II provide more options.). I will continue to follow.  I find the information being shared by others so interesting.


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## Millen5569 (Nov 3, 2020)

NOLA47 said:


> I am just following this thread out of curiosity but can't help but wonder if any timeshare company will satisfy you long term.  With your extensive travel history, what will you do once you've traveled all the destinations within the company you might chose but maintenance fees continue?   Just wonder if you will totally
> lose interest. That is unless you use the timeshare to frequent the destinations you go all the time like Hilton head etc as you mentioned. (Note: I do realize RCI and II provide more options.). I will continue to follow.  I find the information being shared by others so interesting.


Nola47 that is a great question. This has been a tough year because we haven’t been able to travel. We have a young grandson and think that having the ability to have a “beach” vacation or something to take him on is a great idea but eventually that may become repetitive and we would need to look elsewhere. I do appreciate all of the great feedback.


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## NOLA47 (Nov 3, 2020)

For the past 11 yrs we have taken our grandkids to the same two beach locations and it has not gotten old. They actually look forward to it vs viewing it as repetitive.  However, as they are getting older and involved in sports and activities at their schools and in their communities, it is getting hard to schedule vacations where they are all available at the same time.  Just sharing the challenges we are currently experiencing.


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## sandcfort (Nov 3, 2020)

My issue is being on the low end of the points spectrum I can only book 12 months out and for prime locations and times the locations I wish to go to are booked with the 13 month booking window option for the higher MVC point levels.    Between being able to book and rent really prevents me from being able to attend prime locations around the holidays and such.


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## bogey21 (Nov 3, 2020)

I can't imagine buying anything for $38 thousand in today's environment...

George


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## Millen5569 (Nov 3, 2020)

sandcfort said:


> My issue is being on the low end of the points spectrum I can only book 12 months out and for prime locations and times the locations I wish to go to are booked with the 13 month booking window option for the higher MVC point levels.    Between being able to book and rent really prevents me from being able to attend prime locations around the holidays and such.


Sandcfort, thank you for this information. This is the type of thing I am concerned about. The sales manager sent me the hybrid offerings a little while ago and I will post here shortly.


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## davidvel (Nov 3, 2020)

I presume you are thinking of buying points because you think it will save you money, otherwise you'd utilize the most flexible option which is paying cash. However, I don't see that you have done any calculation as to what your vacations will cost.  

You should map out a few realistic trips then check the points charts and calculate the cost over 10 to 20 years. I think you'll be shocked at the cost of using DC points to vacation.


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## GetawaysRus (Nov 3, 2020)

I suspect that the big issue is your love of international travel. Will an investment in DC points give you the flexibility to travel internationally in the ways you wish? And even if that looks possible now, will it continue to be so in the future? These aren't easy questions.

I'll review my own experience and perhaps this will be helpful.  We bought an annual timeshare week direct from Marriott in 2004 for $18,400 (and before I knew about TUG and resales).  A part of the sales pitch was that we could trade our unit every other year for 110,000 Marriott reward points and that those points could then be used to purchase international business class airfare and nights at international luxury hotels.  (Remember that the Destinations Club didn't exist until much later.)

At first, this was definitely true.  We flew business class to Rome on points, stayed 5 nights at a lovely Marriott hotel in Rome (using points), and followed that with a cruise from Italy to Barcelona and a hotel stay in Barcelona, then flew home in business class (using points).  We rebuilt our point balance and just a few short years later flew business class to Paris (on points), stayed 5 nights on the Champs Elysee (using our Marriott hotel points), then took a riverboat cruise (Paris to Prague itinerary) and finished with a Marriott hotel stay in Prague (using hotel points) before flying back home in business class (again on Marriott points converted to airline miles).  Wow!  We've had some great international trips.  The Marriott points from our timeshare helped to significantly reduce the overall cost of these vacations.

It's now 16 years later and, unfortunately, the bloom is off the rose.  Marriott hotel points have been devalued repeatedly, hotels have risen in category (requiring more points for stays), and airlines now require more miles for award flights.  We stopped converting our timeshare usage to Marriott reward points several years ago because I no longer consider that a good value.  I am disappointed that MVCI has stopped building traditional timeshare resorts and has switched to the Pulse properties - to me, the Pulse properties are just converted hotels and they also don't help us with international travel planning.  We still do use (and trade) our timeshare, however, and enjoy our stays (and we have actually added 2 EOY resale weeks).  In my view, we now take 2 types of vacations: (1) timeshare stays are our mellow, relaxed vacation weeks and (2) the big international trips where we run around like crazed tourists trying to take in all the sights.  I'm overall still pleased with our timeshare purchase decision because it has opened up a lot of travel opportunities for us.  Having spent that money, it also motivated me to learn about the world of travel reward points (airline miles, hotel reward programs, flexible reward points that we can earn from credit card usage), and this has proven to be very advantageous for us.  I expect the travel "game" to continue to evolve, probably not to our advantage, but I'll do my best to continue to maximize the enjoyment we get from travel (once this Covid curse lifts, of course).


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## Millen5569 (Nov 3, 2020)

davidvel said:


> I presume you are thinking of buying points because you think it will save you money, otherwise you'd utilize the most flexible option which is paying cash. However, I don't see that you have done any calculation as to what your vacations will cost.
> 
> You should map out a few realistic trips then check the points charts and calculate the cost over 10 to 20 years. I think you'll be shocked at the cost of using DC points to vacation.


Davidvel,
Thanks for your input. I actually looked at the financials and thought about points as a way to travel frequently after retiring or as I put it “leaving the game early”. However to your point, the cost of the MF and needed points negates my original thought process and the ability to get rentals easily really makes buying seem like a less appealing option. We(fiancé and me) discussed taking the cash we were going to spend, invest it, add what maintenance fees for the next 15 years would be( assuming 5% growth per year) and use that as our vacation fund when I walk away.  As long as I stay analytical and not emotional about this points don’t make sense.


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## Millen5569 (Nov 3, 2020)

GetawaysRus said:


> I suspect that the big issue is your love of international travel. Will an investment in DC points give you the flexibility to travel internationally in the ways you wish? And even if that looks possible now, will it continue to be so in the future? These aren't easy questions.
> 
> I'll review my own experience and perhaps this will be helpful.  We bought an annual timeshare week direct from Marriott in 2004 for $18,400 (and before I knew about TUG and resales).  A part of the sales pitch was that we could trade our unit every other year for 110,000 Marriott reward points and that those points could then be used to purchase international business class airfare and nights at international luxury hotels.  (Remember that the Destinations Club didn't exist until much later.)
> 
> ...


GetawaysRus, 
You have nailed it on the head. I have lived the life you described for the past 6 years. Due to COVID, not as much travel this year and not building up the points with business travel either. We love going to Europe and just zooming around. Then head to Hilton Head or Gulf shores to settle down. Thank you for this insight.  The good news is that I rescinded quickly and now it is research time.


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## Millen5569 (Nov 3, 2020)

Bundle 1Bundle2Bundle 3Bundle 4Bundle 5Hilton HeadHilton HeadHilton HeadOahuKauaiAS OF 11/3/2020Grande Ocean Silver Ocean Side​Barony Beach Silver Ocean Front​Grande Ocean Platinum Ocean Side​KoOlina Plat 2 Brd OV L/O​Waiohai Beach Club Platinum IS​Week Cost$ 7,400.007400​$ 21,400.00$ 19,400.00$ 16,400.00Point Value1925​2300​4200​4950​4225​Maintenance Fee (Estimate)$ 1,505.001459​$ 1,550.00$ 2,475.00$ 2,245.00Required Destination Points2250​2750​3000​3000​3000​Points Costs$ 26,460.0030360​$ 33,120.00$ 33,120.00$ 33,120.00Points Maintenance Fees @.61 ppt$ 1,372.50$ 1,677.50$ 1,830.00$ 1,830.00$ 1,830.00Total Points4175​5050​7200​7950​7225​Total Maintenance Fee Costs$ 2,877.50$ 3,136.50$ 3,380.00$ 4,305.00$ 4,075.00Price for Package$ 61,465.00$ 74,336.00$ 105,984.00$ 117,024.00$ 106,352.00Bundle Package Savings$ 27,596.00$ 36,576.00$ 51,464.00$ 64,504.00$ 56,832.00Bundle Package Price (excluding closing costs)$ 33,860.00$ 37,760.00$ 54,250.00$ 52,520.00$ 49,520.00Ownership LevelsSelectSelectExecutiveExecutiveExecutive
Here are the options the sales manager sent over. The salesman then called me to gauge what I was thinking.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Nov 3, 2020)

Read post #10 and keep your hands in your pockets....... Points are an expensive way to go.  Buy resale weeks instead and stay away from points.



.


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## StevenTing (Nov 3, 2020)

I'm not really loving any of the bundles that were presented to you.  More than I'd want to pay.

It is intriguing that for the Ko Olina week that they'll let you get by with only buying 3000 points.  Normally they push that you have to buy a matching number of points.

Don't get caught up in the "Price for Package" as that's full retail price.  No one would ever buy 4000+ points at full retail.  Those savings are manufactured to make you feel good and to justify the Bundle package Price.  I'd delete those two lines from your spreadsheet.

During this Covid time, cash is king.  I'd negotiate for an even better price.  If you really must do this, see if they'll honor the $9.20 on the point price.  That will take off $6000 right off the top and then becomes more palatable.

Ask them if they'll waive Maintenance Fees till 2023 while still retaining usage in 2021 and 2022.


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## Dean (Nov 3, 2020)

Millen5569 said:


> Bundle 1Bundle2Bundle 3Bundle 4Bundle 5Hilton HeadHilton HeadHilton HeadOahuKauaiAS OF 11/3/2020Grande Ocean Silver Ocean Side​Barony Beach Silver Ocean Front​Grande Ocean Platinum Ocean Side​KoOlina Plat 2 Brd OV L/O​Waiohai Beach Club Platinum IS​Week Cost$ 7,400.007400​$ 21,400.00$ 19,400.00$ 16,400.00Point Value1925​2300​4200​4950​4225​Maintenance Fee (Estimate)$ 1,505.001459​$ 1,550.00$ 2,475.00$ 2,245.00Required Destination Points2250​2750​3000​3000​3000​Points Costs$ 26,460.0030360​$ 33,120.00$ 33,120.00$ 33,120.00Points Maintenance Fees @.61 ppt$ 1,372.50$ 1,677.50$ 1,830.00$ 1,830.00$ 1,830.00Total Points4175​5050​7200​7950​7225​Total Maintenance Fee Costs$ 2,877.50$ 3,136.50$ 3,380.00$ 4,305.00$ 4,075.00Price for Package$ 61,465.00$ 74,336.00$ 105,984.00$ 117,024.00$ 106,352.00Bundle Package Savings$ 27,596.00$ 36,576.00$ 51,464.00$ 64,504.00$ 56,832.00Bundle Package Price (excluding closing costs)$ 33,860.00$ 37,760.00$ 54,250.00$ 52,520.00$ 49,520.00Ownership LevelsSelectSelectExecutiveExecutiveExecutive
> Here are the options the sales manager sent over. The salesman then called me to gauge what I was thinking.


None of these are appealing to me but the GO week is the only one I'd consider unless you plan to to go HI routinely and stay at Ko Olina.  IF MVC seems like a good choice you should probably look at weeks then consider enrolling later, that way you can pick the resorts, view and season that fits your travel plans.  


Millen5569 said:


> Thank you Dean. The way you laid this out really has me wondering if a timeshare/points program is right for me. I had rescinded when I originally posted and will not move forward with a Hybrid as of yet. To answer your and Carlito’s question: we go everywhere so it is hard to pick a place that I have to go every year with the exception of Hilton Head(short drive) and Hawaii(just love it).
> Over the past  years we have traveled to:
> Italy x 3
> Germany x 3
> ...


It really isn't as much a matter of where you've gone as it is where you want to go.  You'll need to plan 12 months or more to do timeshare effectively and make the purchase workable.  I would not buy thinking of the exchange options such as cruises or tours though exchanging through II is viable for a subset of options.  You may want to look at timeshares for a portion and cash for the rest.  You should look at other timeshare options also, esp Wyndham and Diamond which cover other areas that MVC does not.


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## csalter2 (Nov 4, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> I'm not really loving any of the bundles that were presented to you.  More than I'd want to pay.
> 
> It is intriguing that for the Ko Olina week that they'll let you get by with only buying 3000 points.  Normally they push that you have to buy a matching number of points.



Steven, 

Sometimes depending on the special they are offering, I was able to select a unit that was well over the number of points I bought in my package.


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## Millen5569 (Nov 4, 2020)

Thank all of you for your suggestions and input. I will do some more research over the next few months and see where it takes me. Thanks again.


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## bogey21 (Nov 4, 2020)

GetawaysRus said:


> I'll review my own experience and perhaps this will be helpful.  We bought an annual timeshare week direct from Marriott in 2004 for $18,400 (and before I knew about TUG and resales).  A part of the sales pitch was that we could trade our unit every other year for 110,000 Marriott reward points and that those points could then be used to purchase international business class airfare and nights at international luxury hotels.  (Remember that the Destinations Club didn't exist until much later.)
> 
> At first, this was definitely true....It's now 16 years later and, unfortunately, the bloom is off the rose.  Marriott hotel points have been devalued repeatedly, hotels have risen in category (requiring more points for stays), and airlines now require more miles for award flights.



I had a similar experience in the late 80s....I bought a Sabal Palms Week directly from Marriott for about $13,000 which could be converted into enough points for round trip airfare, 7 nights in a nice Marriott hotel and a car rental for a week.  It worked great for a couple of years.  Then they devalued their points which pissed me off big time so I sold my Week after about 5 years fortunately for about what I paid for it.  Yeah, I know the program wasn't in my Contract and they were within their rights to do it but it sure as heck was in a nice glossy brochure they used to facilitate sales...

George


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## Millen5569 (Nov 4, 2020)

George 
That is my fear with points. I’ve seen it with my travel points through Marriott, Hilton, Delta, and American. Do you have timeshares still?  Weeks or points?


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## bogey21 (Nov 4, 2020)

I have been out of TimeShares for a number of years now.  Combination of age and health.  Back when I was working I had huge amounts of points with Marriott, Delta, Southwest (when they were segments, not points) and American.  My philosophy was not to accumulate them but rather use them before they diminished in value.  I did things like sending my 13 yo Son to Marriott's Golf School for a week at Lake of the Ozarks in Missouri.  My wife was apoplectic when I did this because he spent the week with a bunch of businessmen but it worked out great.  He learned to play golf the right way which has served him well for the last 30 years...

George


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## csalter2 (Nov 4, 2020)

Millen5569 said:


> George
> That is my fear with points. I’ve seen it with my travel points through Marriott, Hilton, Delta, and American. Do you have timeshares still?  Weeks or points?



He’s talking about Marriott Rewards points or what’s today called Bonvoy points. Those are totally different points than the timeshare Destination points used for timeshare.  Timeshare points remain the same for a unit. The ocean view 2 bedroom that was 3500 Destination points  in 2010 is still 3500 Destination points today. That won’t change. What changes are the maintenance fees for those points.


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## Millen5569 (Nov 4, 2020)

csalter2 said:


> He’s talking about Marriott Rewards points or what’s today called Bonvoy points. Those are totally different points than the timeshare Destination points used for timeshare.  Timeshare points remain the same for a unit. The ocean view 2 bedroom that was 3500 Destination points  in 2010 is still 3500 Destination points today. That won’t change. What changes are the maintenance fees for those points.


Carlito, 
I could not find anything in the contract that stated the points could not change. Is that information on the CD that they gave me?


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## csalter2 (Nov 4, 2020)

Let me see if I can find it, they don’t. I own Diamond and I own Marriott. Neither one has increased points for the units. I’ve owned Diamond points since1998 and they’ve never increase.


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## Fasttr (Nov 4, 2020)

Millen5569 said:


> Carlito,
> I could not find anything in the contract that stated the points could not change. Is that information on the CD that they gave me?


This is the language from the POS.... full document was too large to attach.  

Subject to the limited calendar adjustments described in this paragraph, any increase or decrease in the number of Points for Use required to reserve a designated Use Period pursuant to Association Delegee’s right to amend the Point Schedule as set forth above must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase to the Points for Use for other Use Period(s) occurring during the same year as the designated Use Period. Points for Use for a given calendar year will fluctuate from year to year as a result of the number of weekends that occur during that year, leap years, the occurrence of “Week 53” as defined in the Component Declarations, and which day of the week a holiday occurs. As a result of these fluctuating factors and differing demand which occurs because of the calendar permutations, the number of Points for Use may fluctuate for a given Use Period; provided, however, that the Points for Use for a Use Period in a specific calendar year that has the same factors as another specific calendar year, may only be increased or decreased pursuant to the preceding paragraph. Any modification to the Point Schedule shall not require approval by the Beneficiaries.


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## csalter2 (Nov 5, 2020)

Fasttr said:


> This is the language from the POS.... full document was too large to attach.
> 
> Subject to the limited calendar adjustments described in this paragraph, any increase or decrease in the number of Points for Use required to reserve a designated Use Period pursuant to Association Delegee’s right to amend the Point Schedule as set forth above must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase to the Points for Use for other Use Period(s) occurring during the same year as the designated Use Period. Points for Use for a given calendar year will fluctuate from year to year as a result of the number of weekends that occur during that year, leap years, the occurrence of “Week 53” as defined in the Component Declarations, and which day of the week a holiday occurs. As a result of these fluctuating factors and differing demand which occurs because of the calendar permutations, the number of Points for Use may fluctuate for a given Use Period; provided, however, that the Points for Use for a Use Period in a specific calendar year that has the same factors as another specific calendar year, may only be increased or decreased pursuant to the preceding paragraph. Any modification to the Point Schedule shall not require approval by the Beneficiaries.



Thank you for finding this.  So in English this is basically saying that if points are increased or decreased for units for a particularly week, then there has to be an increase or decrease in points during that same year someplace else on the calendar.


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## Millen5569 (Nov 5, 2020)

Thanks Fasttr and Carlito.


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## Dean (Nov 5, 2020)

Millen5569 said:


> George
> That is my fear with points. I’ve seen it with my travel points through Marriott, Hilton, Delta, and American. Do you have timeshares still?  Weeks or points?


You see the language above, the points can be reallocated but overall they cannot change.  However, any specific week or unit size could change modestly and some holidays will float, esp Easter.    But fees can change and new resorts might be higher points than existing ones.  The rules can change as well, esp the VIP options.  IMO the risks are more outside of Marriott than within.  I believe economics and personal situations are a larger risk overall including health, jobs and the like.  In reality timeshares rarely save one money but what they can do is give a good value to the money that is spent assuming one makes good choices up front both in the options chosen and price paid, plans well and learns the system.


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## Millen5569 (Nov 6, 2020)

Hey guys. Thanks again for all of your help. I have another interesting thing that came up with this thread. I was approached by a  member directly about helping me with this decision. He sent me a direct conversation message the other night and I replied but haven’t heard back from him. At this point I’m assuming he is a broker or salesperson. Here is the message:

I'm happy to help in any way I can I bought and rescinded direct with a hybrid plan. I have done a ton of research and had some great mentors here on TUGs. I am 44 and have two young kids and live in Charlotte, NC. There are many ways you can use the club that I have learned. Based on what you are looking for, there are some great folks on this board that can help you.  

I have a great spreadsheet on resale options and how to enroll them in a promo (hybrid at a big discount). Lots of scenarios that you could use as a foundation to help you do what works best for your family. If you want to share with me your email, I'm happy to send it over.

I had a few people talk me through ways to help, happy to connect via phone if I can help that way. Let me know where your located, what resorts appeal most to you and what is your budget. I would NOT buy DC points which is what MVC wants to sell you. There are ways around this. 

Thanks.

Bill


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## TXTortoise (Nov 6, 2020)

Give him some time, unlikely he's a salesman or broker.


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## Fasttr (Nov 6, 2020)

TXTortoise said:


> Give him some time, unlikely he's a salesman or broker.


I agree....sounds like he is just a friendly TUGger willing to share the data that he collected when he was in the same place as the OP.  I'd just try to reach out again.


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## Dean (Nov 6, 2020)

Millen5569 said:


> Hey guys. Thanks again for all of your help. I have another interesting thing that came up with this thread. I was approached by a  member directly about helping me with this decision. He sent me a direct conversation message the other night and I replied but haven’t heard back from him. At this point I’m assuming he is a broker or salesperson. Here is the message:
> 
> I'm happy to help in any way I can I bought and rescinded direct with a hybrid plan. I have done a ton of research and had some great mentors here on TUGs. I am 44 and have two young kids and live in Charlotte, NC. There are many ways you can use the club that I have learned. Based on what you are looking for, there are some great folks on this board that can help you.
> 
> ...


I agree, it's likely just a TUGGER willing to help.  In fact, I have an idea who it might be.


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## Millen5569 (Nov 6, 2020)

Thanks again everyone. I guess I should be more trusting.


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## csalter2 (Nov 6, 2020)

Millen5569 said:


> Thanks again everyone. I guess I should be more trusting.



Trust, but verify was the old Russian proverb that Ronald Reagan used. I liked that. It means absolutely nothing but it works.


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## GTLINZ (Nov 6, 2020)

Millen5569- I am not an owner in Marriott but I do stay at a Marriott every year that I trade into via Interval.  So much has been suggested, so I just went back to your original list of travel sites and have something for you to ponder which I think has been suggested but maybe not in the same form.

You seem to be wanting the Marriott points to cover a lot of bases. But I think you buy a timeshare because you can derive savings from it - so as long as it provides some value to you it is worth owning. I also believe in "dipping your toes" to see how it works before you dive in.

I would think buying a resale LOCKOFF week at the beach would be a great start.  Not sure what beach you prefer, but there are plenty of nice resorts in the system. If you buy where you like to go, you have the option of peeling off one of both sides and see how trading might works for other trips. I think you would still have the Marriott preference so if you watch you will find out if you can snag some other nice Marriotts in exotic locations.

Not the big bang - but as said before a resale week is not an expensive investment.

And if that goes well (you are getting good trades often enough and you like the beach location you picked enough to keep going back) - rinse and repeat !


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## aland0524 (Nov 7, 2020)

Sometimes, when you get too involved and "invested" in working a "deal", you often lose perspective on what it is you are really trying to accomplish.  It seems to me that you want to travel to a lot of places vs going to the same place often (we go to Kauai/Maui yearly and own MVC at these places).  Maybe you should rethink the solution to what you want to accomplish and instead of looking a this hybrid plan, simply consider renting at this time.  The rental market for excellent properties (Marriott, Westin/Vistana) in Hawaii for example offers unbelievable good value without all the hassle that owners (weeks or points) have to suffer through -- maintenance fees, getting the right week scheduled, etc.  Since you seem to also plan ahead, trying out various timeshare properties via rental (Redweek) might be a quicker, simpler way to get started.   While we have enjoyed our Waiohai/MOC-Napili "investments" (we bought from developer at pre-open prices many years ago...when we were on vacation, usually after "bonus" time so money was burning a hole in pocket), in hindsight, I would have just rented had I known these options were available.  These "assets" aren't very liquid, have relatively high fixed "carrying" costs (maintenance fees), can sometimes be a hassle navigating the scheduling process (unless you own fixed weeks) ... I'd keep my $$$ and maybe just open a day trading account -


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## Millen5569 (Nov 7, 2020)

aland0524 said:


> Sometimes, when you get too involved and "invested" in working a "deal", you often lose perspective on what it is you are really trying to accomplish.  It seems to me that you want to travel to a lot of places vs going to the same place often (we go to Kauai/Maui yearly and own MVC at these places).  Maybe you should rethink the solution to what you want to accomplish and instead of looking a this hybrid plan, simply consider renting at this time.  The rental market for excellent properties (Marriott, Westin/Vistana) in Hawaii for example offers unbelievable good value without all the hassle that owners (weeks or points) have to suffer through -- maintenance fees, getting the right week scheduled, etc.  Since you seem to also plan ahead, trying out various timeshare properties via rental (Redweek) might be a quicker, simpler way to get started.   While we have enjoyed our Waiohai/MOC-Napili "investments" (we bought from developer at pre-open prices many years ago...when we were on vacation, usually after "bonus" time so money was burning a hole in pocket), in hindsight, I would have just rented had I known these options were available.  These "assets" aren't very liquid, have relatively high fixed "carrying" costs (maintenance fees), can sometimes be a hassle navigating the scheduling process (unless you own fixed weeks) ... I'd keep my $$$ and maybe just open a day trading account -


Aland, 
i Agree with you. I spent hours looking at rentals the their night. I had no idea so many were available.


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## TXTortoise (Nov 7, 2020)

Millen5569 said:


> Aland,
> i Agree with you. I spent hours looking at rentals the their night. I had no idea so many were available.


For Hawaii, be sure and also look at VacationCandy.com. They and Redweek are the two high volume listing sites. Some of these listings will show up on VRBO and similar sites, but with additional fees.


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## bogey21 (Nov 7, 2020)

Dean said:


> In reality timeshares rarely save one money but what they can do is give a good value to the money that is spent assuming one makes good choices up front both in the options chosen and price paid, plans well and learns the system.



I tend to agree with this.  Back when we had 3 young kids we owned 4 Marriott Weeks.   The one at Monarch was a Fixed Week, the other three were Floating Weeks.  The real benefit to us was that we were able lock down the time and place of our trips well in advance knowing we would be staying in  quality Resorts.  Fortunately this was back when you could sell your Weeks for about what you paid for them or even at a profit as we did with our Monarch Crown Suite Week... 

George


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## Dean (Nov 7, 2020)

bogey21 said:


> I tend to agree with this.  Back when we had 3 young kids we owned 4 Marriott Weeks.   The one at Monarch was a Fixed Week, the other three were Floating Weeks.  The real benefit to us was that we were able lock down the time and place of our trips well in advance knowing we would be staying in  quality Resorts.  Fortunately this was back when you could sell your Weeks for about what you paid for them or even at a profit as we did with our Monarch Crown Suite Week...
> 
> George


There are various components.  People often just spend any money elsewhere they saved with timeshares.  For many if not most situations one could stay at a hotel cheaper than a timeshare but often without the additional space, kitchen and other amenities.  And most timeshare buyers don't take the steps to put themselves into a good position by making good choices, buying at a reasonable price, planning ahead and learning the system well enough to get ahead of most members.  I think Orlando/Disney is one of the purest ways to evaluate timeshares though no comparison is perfect.


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## Millen5569 (Nov 7, 2020)

Dean said:


> There are various components.  People often just spend any money elsewhere they saved with timeshares.  For many if not most situations one could stay at a hotel cheaper than a timeshare but often without the additional space, kitchen and other amenities.  And most timeshare buyers don't take the steps to put themselves into a good position by making good choices, buying at a reasonable price, planning ahead and learning the system well enough to get ahead of most members.  I think Orlando/Disney is one of the purest ways to evaluate timeshares though no comparison is perfect.


Thanks for the advice. I hate going to Orlando so that probably won’t be a good option for me. That being said, the grandson is getting to the age where a trip to Disney will be on the list!


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## Dean (Nov 7, 2020)

Millen5569 said:


> Thanks for the advice. I hate going to Orlando so that probably won’t be a good option for me. That being said, the grandson is getting to the age where a trip to Disney will be on the list!


You missed the point, maybe I wasn't clear.  I wasn't saying that one should go to Orlando.  What I was saying was that the various components in Orlando are a great way to compare the  options including hotels, timeshares, and private rentals.  You've got Disney on property with DVC.  You've got top off property timeshares like Marriott, Hilton, Wyndham's Bonnet Creek and Bluegreen's Fountains.  You've got a plethora of other really good timeshares on every corner.  You can exchange in easily usually upgrading.  You can get cash getaways from II and RCI often for much less than any other option.  The cost can range from very high with DVC to fairly low with getaways and private rentals and all type of in between options.  On the hotel side you've got even more options that vary even more than the timeshares do.  Personally I value the space, full kitchen and other amenities common to good timeshares.  And I don't want daily housekeeping and don't care about on property restaurants in most situations.


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## Millen5569 (Nov 8, 2020)

Dean said:


> You missed the point, maybe I wasn't clear.  I wasn't saying that one should go to Orlando.  What I was saying was that the various components in Orlando are a great way to compare the  options including hotels, timeshares, and private rentals.  You've got Disney on property with DVC.  You've got top off property timeshares like Marriott, Hilton, Wyndham's Bonnet Creek and Bluegreen's Fountains.  You've got a plethora of other really good timeshares on every corner.  You can exchange in easily usually upgrading.  You can get cash getaways from II and RCI often for much less than any other option.  The cost can range from very high with DVC to fairly low with getaways and private rentals and all type of in between options.  On the hotel side you've got even more options that vary even more than the timeshares do.  Personally I value the space, full kitchen and other amenities common to good timeshares.  And I don't want daily housekeeping and don't care about on property restaurants in most situations.


You are correct, I did miss your point. That is a good way of evaluations options. We do like having the kitchen if we are staying for a week. I guess the good thing is that I have options and I’m not locked in.


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## Millen5569 (Nov 8, 2020)

Millen5569 said:


> You are correct, I did miss your point. That is a good way of evaluations options. We do like having the kitchen if we are staying for a week. I guess the good thing is that I have options and I’m not locked in.


Dean, I hit send too quick. I wanted to ask if getting a membership with IL is possible without having a timeshare and if it would be a good option to take advantage of the trips that are offered.


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## Dean (Nov 8, 2020)

Millen5569 said:


> Dean, I hit send too quick. I wanted to ask if getting a membership with IL is possible without having a timeshare and if it would be a good option to take advantage of the trips that are offered.


For II and RCI you must own at a member timeshare.  I have seen those that owned and later sold but still have access.  You can work with some of the independents that do rentals without owning a timeshare.  But you could buy one and join though I doubt it's worth it just to get access.  May as well just do private rentals in that situation.  

My sense reading your posts is that a timeshare that hits a portion of your plans might be a good option.  What I've found is that timeshares for the UY, Caribbean and MX do almost everything I want for vacations.  I doubt that's the case for other parts of the world though there are some good timeshares elsewhere as well.  I think some try to make a single timeshare do everything but from what I've seen, that's not possible for most people.  I certainly wouldn't buy anything planning to use non guaranteed options or cash exchange equivalents like cruises or escorted tours, they rarely if ever give a reasonable value to do so.


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## GTLINZ (Nov 9, 2020)

One of the reasons I own Hyatt is so I could have access to Interval - and after years with HGVC and RCI I like Interval so much better than RCI. As just stated, I have to own a member timeshare to be an Interval member and Hyatt was the best fit for us. You really can get great deals to Orlando with getaways (and we like Orlando) and sometimes you can find other good getaways.  But we wanted access to Marriott and are willing to travel off season (best weather, lowest crowds, and we are flexible with travel dates) and do not have problems booking at a few places we love thru Interval.

My HGVC was bought at market price in 2005 (resale) and had lost most of its value and we decided to pare down from 3 timeshares to 1. Between Hyatt points, Interval trades into Marriott and getaways we get a lot of value out of our single ownership. If I did buy anything else, it would be to buy a Marriott week (not points).  Marriott does give you access to so many locations and you know the quality accomodations will be there - and a Marriott ownership would give you the preference to try and snag higher demand weeks.  But I also with the current climate would hesitate to buy anything unless it was a great deal.

But this is all about what works for you. What I own I knew I would use - with every purchase. And as time passed we readjusted.

I am very fortunate I sold an Orlando week last year. I got some bucks for it and it would be hard to sell now with COVID and Orlando being overbuilt.  The other unit, I gave away. But I still think I got more out of each ownership than i put in.


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## Millen5569 (Nov 9, 2020)

Thank you Dean and GTLINZ, I‘ve been reading alot of the articles and posts doing research. I have a great deal to learn.


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## m61376 (Nov 14, 2020)

A few other thoughts in addition to the ones already posted- you clearly like international travel, and I assume that it's just the two of you, right? Timeshares are a plus and a minus, depending on who you're asking. We discovered it when our kids were in their twenties, and love the flexibility they afford. For us- whether traveling alone or with the kids, breakfast is always a pain. Mostly, I'd rather get underway than have a big breakfast, and we rarely have a big breakfast and go out to dinner. Just too much eating. So having kitchen facilities is a big plus for us. With kids and grandkids the space, kitchen and laundry are huge pluses.
That said, I have friends who own who miss the hotel amenities- they miss the daily maid service, miss the flexibility of booking anywhere whenever and not subject to availability, miss doing things last minute, etc. For us, the quality of a Marriott timeshare is great, and we like the resort feel. But for those booking 1000-2500 a night hotel rooms, it's a step down. We don't need water bottles brought to us at the beachl we're happy to bring our own cooler down and graze through the day. But if you want fancy lunches in the hotel restaurant you might be unhappy bringing down a cooler or eating at the poolside bar. So make sure you understand the timeshare environment as opposed to hotels. 
Also, think about if your family dynamics are likely to change over the next decade, and whether timesharing will be more or less likely to meet your needs. Easy to buy- much harder to sell.
All that said, for us it was the best decision we ever made, and the benefits have been priceless. But it's not that way for everyone.
Good luck, and stay safe in your travels, especially this year!!


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## NOLA47 (Nov 14, 2020)

I understand and can relate to the point m61376 makes.  I was introduced to time sharing much later in life by being invited on trips with a long time widowed girlfriend who owns Marriott properties.  All the properties were nice, spacious and impressive to me.  She would either have a group of us or there were trips when she would reserve two bedroom units and we each had spacious accommodations to ourselves.  We would bring unfinished dinners back to our room and enjoy them the next day.  I was never able to convince my husband to even stay at a timeshare.

It was not until we had grandkids and hosted a very nice and expensive trip for our entire family to an on-site Disney stay that he would entertain the thought.  He always wanted the room cleaned daily and the convenience of room service after a meeting when he did not feel like going back out for dinner.  That Disney trip was fun but so crazy trying to satisfy his one requirement on the trip of eating dinner together at the end of each day. Even though I had reservations each night, the young kids were restless and it was frustrating.  I had given up asking him to just sit thru a timeshare presentation when he heard me turning down an offer one day and motioned to me that we could go.  I think the only factor that sold him was the points system, that he didn’t have to go to the same place every year at the same time and that it was hilton and the assurance that the properties would be maintained.

Now, the grandkids and their friends would not have it any other way.  Our kids still talk about that Disney trip but know that as our family has grown, it’s unlikely.  We’ve been back to Orlando, stayed at hilton grand vacation properties and everyone decides what they want to do.  My daughter admits that even though they had expensive passes to disneyworld, there were days when their kids would have preferred to stay at the resort. The grandkids love the timeshare life and bringing together their cousins and friends at least once a year.  Now a prerequisite to our trips with the kids is that my husband has a space he can go off to and hide for a little quiet time.  The kids talk so much about the trips afterwards that he sees the benefit of having family together.  Now when our kids plan a vacation for their family, they always ask about my ability to find them something thru hilton grand vacations.  Oh, and preferably with a washer and dryer inside the room.


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## Kanawah (Nov 14, 2020)

Millen5569 said:


> Good evening. After spending mannnnnnyyyyy hours reading the forums in the past and over the past weekend I have bucked up and joined TUG this evening. The information found here is outstanding.
> My question relates to a MVC hybrid plan- is there any information with more detail that I can find?
> 
> backstory: I have been to 3 separate MVC presentations and always turned them down until yesterday. In a moment of weakness I signed a contract, but then came to my senses and rescinded first thing this morning. I also turned down HGVC before.
> ...





For HGVC (Hilton), if you are going to buy from Hilton, find the location that has the lowest cost per point.  When you make a rreservation, it is in points, not dollars.  Some of the resorts are much more dollars per point.  The only thing that you get from buying at at a paticular resort is you get to make reservations at THAT resort starting 52 weeks before you are to check out.  (12 months)  To make a reservation at other than wahat they refer to as your "home resort" you can not make a reservation until 9 months (39 weeks) before check out.  The only location that I wanted to book that that was a problem was Ocean Oaks in Hilton Head. (very hot property)  You may also run into that situation in Hawaii.

Another item to check on are the annual fees.  They vary by location and the size of unit you buy into.  At a given location (the w ay it used to be, not sure if it still is) Some locations you could buy a three 1 bedroom unit (the cost per unit would be more to buy in), but the annual fees are less would be less than the fees on one 3 bedroom unit.  Have no idea why.  Also the annual fee varies by the location you buy into.

Decide where you want to go.  Then buy the number of points you need to stay there.

A last note.
You can get way more bang for the buck on the secondary market.
A point is a point, is a point, regardless where you bought it,  Does not matter if it was bought at Sea World or Kings Land.  
The number of points varies by location, when you go, and the level of unit you get.


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## csalter2 (Nov 14, 2020)

Without a doubt, life changes and one’s circumstances can change how one wants to travel. Everyone is different. I have 4 kids with an age range of 37 to 7.(Let’s not go there.). I have had timeshares since the late 90’s. Prior to them, I had to get adjoining rooms at hotels and it wasn’t cheap. Sleeping late is harder when kids are hungry and room service expensive. Having the timeshare saved money for me right we away by saving on the additional room and I could sleep later as the kids made their own breakfast such as cereal or toast most mornings. I also saved countless dollars by not having to fly on weekends.  Having a washing machine cut down on clothes needing to be packed, You can dry your bathing suits faster. When kids are swimming in the pool and/or the beach and you can store drinks in your refrigerator, that’s another savings. The longer you hold onto your timeshare and actually use it, you’ll get great value over time. When my older kids left the house and my wife and I were alone, she and I would use the lock off and get 2 weeks of vacation. Lots of value there. When my youngest was born, we continued to use the one bedrooms, but when she has a friend come with us, we go back to 2 bedrooms.  I now have grandkids along with my daughter and I’m still finding timesharing an asset for my family.  I have rented the studio and 1 bedroom sides of my lock off unit and it ended up being a free trip for us since the rent paid for maintenance fees. I’ve traded where there were no Marriott’s and that was good too.  I have found the biggest savings and best part of my timeshare has been traveling during high season during summer when prices are the most steep. I stay in Hawaii sometimes 4-6 weeks. My timeshares’ maintenance fees are a fraction of what it costs for lesser accommodations during those summer. I’ve gone to. Europe on my timeshare and when I retire I’m going to Thailand and Australia on them. I have found timeshares invaluable. 

A key is to plan early if you are working and don’t have flexibility. The other way one can go is waiting about 2 months out if you have flexibility and you can see what’s available and go where the wind blows you. If you know how to best utilize your timeshare and use it, you won’t regret having it.


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