# New Marriott purchase - Should I cancel??



## hybridE4t (Nov 6, 2014)

I recently enjoyed 3 complimentary nights (and a 4th discounted night) at MVC Phuket Beach Club. I initially went into the presentation partly expecting to turn the offer down but ended up buying into the scheme  I was initially worried by the reputation of timeshare scams but was actually quite reassured by the Marriott brand name and the fact that it was quite a modern and flexible points scheme, not completely unlike spending hotel points. I've since found this site and am worried I may have made a bad decision.

We bought 33,000 Vacation Club points at USD1.30 per point (apparently currently valued at $1.45 per point).

Also included was 12 months Platinum Elite Marriott Rewards status, 260,000 MRP and the Marriott Elite credit card. It retrospect, even if we had made the right choice by going ahead, perhaps we should have negotiated for more freebies 

We put down 10% deposit on credit card and have 90 days to pay the balance (which we will settle without financing). *This happened on Nov 3rd and we have 5 days from that date to cancel. I need to double check if this is window is 5 "working days" but either way it doesn't leave long to cancel if we've made a bad decision* 

Reasons why we purchased:
1. We have young children and really enjoyed having a well equipped apartment and family friendly facilities
2. We like the idea of having pre-paid and not having to deal-hunt for future holidays
3. We like the tie in with Marriott points as I occasionally have intense periods of business travel so wanted a complimentary scheme with points. I normally stay with IHG and SPG but I'm happy to switch given they matched my platinum status and provided some MRPs.
4. The club points/non-location specific mechanism sounded very flexible (e.g. ability to roll-over upto 3 years, convert to MRP if necessary, use anytime of year etc) versus what I had previously understood timeshare to be e.g. x weeks in a specific property that had to be exchanged to go elsewhere

I realise that to some extent we may be paying slightly over the odds for the reduced hassle of no longer hunting for normal hotel/villa deals. I didn't realise the timeshare rental market existed (although it sounds like there may be a time versus money element here too).

What I would like to understand is (very roughly) how much we may be paying over the odds and if we just got a bit carried away before we lose the opportunity to cancel.

Thanks for any advice!! I will continue to read the newbie forums in the meantime


----------



## vacationhopeful (Nov 6, 2014)

*CANCEL NOW!*

Do your figuring without the issue of this deadline. As you know, a new and perhaps a better deal will always be offered. But your best bet might be a resale purchase .... but _you only have this ONE TIME short window to cancel_.

I am not a Marriott owner ... but it is a developer timeshare purchase. They are ALMOST never a GOOD DEAL ... or even a close to good deal unless you are working to get some "special" or "elite" status ... but that takes planning; never good deal on an impulse buy.


----------



## Docklander (Nov 6, 2014)

hybridE4t said:


> I recently enjoyed 3 complimentary nights (and a 4th discounted night) at MVC Phuket Beach Club. I initially went into the presentation partly expecting to turn the offer down but ended up buying into the scheme  I was initially worried by the reputation of timeshare scams but was actually quite reassured by the Marriott brand name and the fact that it was quite a modern and flexible points scheme, not completely unlike spending hotel points. I've since found this site and am worried I may have made a bad decision.
> 
> We bought 33,000 Vacation Club points at USD1.30 per point (apparently currently valued at $1.45 per point).
> 
> ...



I'll echo the previous post and say that purchases from the developer are very rarely a good idea....so cancelling is probably going to be the best option. But having said that, a bit more info would be useful:

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you've bought as I don't recognize the numbers you're quoting. Marriott's timeshare points system is called the Destination Club and points are usually sold (by the developer) from anywhere between $9.50 and $12.50 per point (I'm using very rough approximations of historical pricing). That seems very different to what you've quoted.

There is a chance that Marriott Phuket (Marriott Asia?) has a different points system that I'm not aware of so please excuse my ignorance if that's the case. Nevertheless, if you give us more details of your purchase then we'll probably be in a better position to advise and to offer some alternatives.

Welcome to TUG!


----------



## MALC9990 (Nov 6, 2014)

Docklander said:


> I'll echo the previous post and say that purchases from the developer are very rarely a good idea....so cancelling is probably going to be the best option. But having said that, a bit more info would be useful:
> 
> I'm not sure I understand exactly what you've bought as I don't recognize the numbers you're quoting. Marriott's timeshare points system is called the Destination Club and points are usually sold (by the developer) from anywhere between $9.50 and $12.50 per point (I'm using very rough approximations of historical pricing). That seems very different to what you've quoted.
> 
> ...


What the OP has purchased is points in the MVCI Asia Pacific program which is a separate points based TS system but covers only Asia Pacific region - the resorts are 2 in Phuket, 1 in Bangkok and a couple in Hawaii and also in Las Vegas. The AP points club owns units at the resorts and members then use points to make reservations at the resorts. It operates in a very similar way to the Destinations Club in the USA, Caribbean and Europe but the points are priced differently and also the number of points required for reservations are different. There is a rough 10 to 1 difference between the AP points and DC points pricing and usage rates.


----------



## Saintsfanfl (Nov 6, 2014)

Rescind now!


----------



## MALC9990 (Nov 6, 2014)

hybridE4t said:


> I recently enjoyed 3 complimentary nights (and a 4th discounted night) at MVC Phuket Beach Club. I initially went into the presentation partly expecting to turn the offer down but ended up buying into the scheme  I was initially worried by the reputation of timeshare scams but was actually quite reassured by the Marriott brand name and the fact that it was quite a modern and flexible points scheme, not completely unlike spending hotel points. I've since found this site and am worried I may have made a bad decision.
> 
> We bought 33,000 Vacation Club points at USD1.30 per point (apparently currently valued at $1.45 per point).
> 
> ...



As you will already see, there will be comments about cancelling and stepping back before you commit the cash to this purchase. This is essentially sound advice if you were buying into the US Marriott Vacation Club points system since there are lots of weeks available for resale at Marriott Resorts on the resale market for much less than the price for enough points to be able to book a week at a resort in the USA.

However the decision is perhaps less straight forward for the Asia Pacific points system. Why is the AP decision not so straight forward? Well first the abailablility of resale weeks at a really low price is not nearly so plentiful. There is less of a market for resale weeks in the AP region and so if you want to get into the resorts like Phuket Beach Club or Mai Khao Beach Club as a new owner then AP points can be the only certain way.

Since you have stayed at Phuket Beach Club you should do a quick google search for weeks at PBC on the resale market. You will see a bewildering range of prices. All will be less than you have paid (or will pay) for the points you have decided to buy. In US $ I would suggest a price of around $8K to $9K is probably about what you would pay but some resellers ask silly prices - but they will not sell.

The downside of a resale week at PBC - you will not get the incentives but the cash you save will be a big incentive. You will not be able to exchange for Marriott Rewards points. However all other options will be available - you can exchange with Interval International or use the week at Phuket beach Club as a weeks owner. 

The decision is really just down to what do you want to do with your cash and vacations.

I speak as an owner at PBC with both weeks and AP points - all purchased from MVCI at significant cost. I did that before I discovered resales and so the question now would be what would I do now. Without a doubt I would buy weeks on the resale market and save my cash. You may decide otherwise.

Remember that if you cancel, you can always go back next year and buy again - the deal will ALWAYS be there. Once the cancellation deadline is passed you are on the hook !

So - google "phuket beach club resale" and see what you can find.


----------



## MALC9990 (Nov 6, 2014)

Also - Welcome to TUG - you made a good decision to do some research here.

Remember- this forum is very USA centric - that's because MVCI is very USA centric.

The information here is all sound and most of us are experienced owners.


----------



## hawk5 (Nov 6, 2014)

Your reasons are exactly like my reasons were 14 years ago.  My family of 5 has enjoyed 14 years of wonderful Marriott timeshare vacations.   

Just do your homework before committing! That being said, I have some developer weeks and some resale weeks.  Good luck and enjoy what you decide on!!!


----------



## cp73 (Nov 6, 2014)

You will see if you look through this board that almost everyone who comes to this board seeking advice on what to do is told to rescind and take their time to understand the system and pricing. You will also find on this board most people here love their Marriott timeshares/points. Buying directly from Marriott is the easiest way for a new person to get into the system. However, it is also the most costly. There are better options that are a lot less costly with all the same benefits. You could save substantial money with other options, lets say 40% plus....but you won't know whats best for you until you take your time and learn about the Marriott system and what to expect.


----------



## tschwa2 (Nov 6, 2014)

> 2. We like the idea of having pre-paid and not having to deal-hunt for future holidays



I am not sure if this one has been addressed.  You do realize that in addition to the purchase price you will have ongoing annual Maintenance fees which generally go up each year.  So you are pre-paying a large chunk now and will be pre-paying an annual fee every year (usually in late Dec/early Jan) as well.  You will still be hunting for those holidays and will need to reserve your stays.  You will now just be limited to what is available through the Marriott portfolio and just because it is available for cash doesn't mean it will be available using points be it AP points or hotel reward points.


----------



## suenmike32 (Nov 6, 2014)

> Remember that if you cancel, you can always go back next year and buy again - the deal will ALWAYS be there. Once the cancellation deadline is passed you are on the hook!



There is always great advice on this board and most Tuggers are speaking from years of experience. However, the quote above says it all in one paragraph.

Mike


----------



## Ron98GT (Nov 6, 2014)

hybridE4t said:


> I recently enjoyed 3 complimentary nights (and a 4th discounted night) at MVC Phuket Beach Club. I initially went into the presentation partly expecting to turn the offer down but ended up buying into the scheme  I was initially worried by the reputation of timeshare scams but was actually quite reassured by the Marriott brand name and the fact that it was quite a modern and flexible points scheme, not completely unlike spending hotel points. I've since found this site and am worried I may have made a bad decision.
> 
> We bought 33,000 Vacation Club points at USD1.30 per point (apparently currently valued at $1.45 per point).
> 
> ...


So, how many nights will 33K points get the OP at PBC?

What are the yearly MF's for 33K Asian Market Points?

If they're not DC points, what are they called?

Since the Asian Market points are only good for Marriott's in Asia (Thailand) and Las Vegas, conversely can the DC points be used for the Asian market, such as Phuket?

With so many TUG Marriott owners buying into the DC program and purchasing their points from Marriott, I'm surprised that more members aren't more receptive to the OP's purchase: $1.3/point, it's for the Asian market, the OP is in Hong Kong, & the OP goes to Phuket on a regular basis.

Just asking and wondering


----------



## hybridE4t (Nov 6, 2014)

Ron98GT said:


> So, how many nights will 33K points get the OP at PBC?
> 
> What are the yearly MF's for 33K Asian Market Points?
> 
> ...



Annual MF is approx USD0.034 x number of points. I'll confirm the exact number tomorrow. DC points here are simply called Club Points. 

I'm fairly sure Club Points can be used across the global Marriott resort network. 

Thanks for everyone's feedback. I'm leaning towards staying a point owner but happier that I know what I'm sacrificing. Tbh it's more of a lifestyle investment than about finding the cheapest deal, within reason. 

I think once we are familiar with being official MVCI users and perhaps ready to up our annual points then we will look into alternative means to achieve that. I'll make a final decision tomorrow but look forward to any further feedback!


----------



## BocaBoy (Nov 6, 2014)

I have no idea how the Asia Pacific points system works, nor do almost any of the U.S. based posters on TUG.  Canceling may be a good idea but I have no idea because I don't know the facts.  I am continually amazed by the clear and forceful advice we sometimes see here from those who do not know the facts.  I am not trying to be quarrelsome, just objective.

Having said that, I thought MALC9990's post #6 was quite helpful.  It was not from a U.S. perspective.


----------



## puckmanfl (Nov 6, 2014)

good afternoon...

please remember that any MVCD based "point system", eithr DC or AP is NOT as easy to use as MR points.  These represent completely different inventory pools.  ALL DC and AP reservations are based on exchange and trust inventory...  it's not as easy as going on line and reserving...


----------



## tschwa2 (Nov 6, 2014)

hybridE4t said:


> Annual MF is approx USD0.034 x number of points. I'll confirm the exact number tomorrow. DC points here are simply called Club Points.
> 
> I'm fairly sure Club Points can be used across the global Marriott resort network.


So what you need to confirm is how many nights in the vacation club units you can get for your MF's and/or how many hotel nights you can get.  Without that info you can't make an informed decision.


----------



## MALC9990 (Nov 6, 2014)

hybridE4t said:


> Annual MF is approx USD0.034 x number of points. I'll confirm the exact number tomorrow. DC points here are simply called Club Points.
> 
> I'm fairly sure Club Points can be used across the global Marriott resort network.
> 
> ...



Your AP points will work in the same way as DC points work for US based owners in the Destinations Club.

The MVCI Asia Pacific Club owns weeks at a number of MVCI resorts. These are:

Phuket Beach Club - roughly 800 to 900 weeks at this resort (as weeks owners default on their maintenance fees or sell back to MVCI, the weeks are sold onto the AP Club). So this is a slowly growing number of weeks as the years go by.

Mai Khao Beach Club - ALL units are owned by the MVCI AP Club - there are no weeks owners at this resort.

Las Vegas - Grand Chateau

Ko Olina Beach Club - Hawaii

Waiohai Beach Club - Hawaii

Empire Place - Bangkok

I do not know how many units at each of the above the AP Club actually owns.

To answer the question on what the OP's AP points could reserve - 33,000 points is just enough for a platinum week at Phuket beach Club and Mai Khao Beach Club. Enough for about 11 nights in Gold Season. For the other resorts I would need to look up the information online. 33,000 AP points will not get a week at XMAS, New Year or Chinese new Year weeks - these weeks require double points !!

You can also use your AP Points to exchange with II and also to access other MVCI resorts in Europe. Also the Club contracts with some Marriott Hotels across Asia and Australia to enable AP Club members to book hotel rooms using points.

I own weeks at PBC - 3 and AP Points - 30K and yes I bought them all from the developer before I wised up to resales, but that is all water under the bridge now.

AP points offer more flexibility in the booking process since you can use them in any season whereas a weeks owner is restricted to their season unless they either exchange thru II, or have enrolled their weeks into the DC and then exchange for DC points to use for an exchange.

My PBC weeks are also enrolled in the AP points system so I can exchange my weeks for AP points if I want to use them as an exchange mechanism. This operates in exactly the same way as enrolling a week in the DC points system for an owner at a resort in the USA, Caribbean or Europe. the one difference is that there is no Skim - the points required to book a week is the same number of points you get for an enrolled week.

Just like in the USA, in Asia MVCI no longer sells weeks - only AP points.


----------



## MALC9990 (Nov 6, 2014)

puckmanfl said:


> good afternoon...
> 
> Remember that any MVCD based "point system", eithr DC or AP is NOT as easy to use as MR points.  These represent completely different inventory pools.  ALL DC and AP reservations are based on exchange and trust inventory...  it's not as easy as going on line and reserving...



AP points usage is basically the same as Trust points in the DC system. They can be used for booking weeks owned by the Club - think of the Club as the Trust in DC terms. They can also be used to exchange within the II system.

If I take one of my PBC weeks and trade it for AP points then a week goes to the Club inventory pool for that year and I can use my points to look for inventory in the same way as any other club member. The AP Club basically only has one inventory bucket - which is distinctly different to the two inventory buckets in the DC system with Trust and Exchange inventory.


----------



## Ron98GT (Nov 6, 2014)

MALC9990 said:


> AP points usage is basically the same as Trust points in the DC system. They can be used for booking weeks owned by the Club - think of the Club as the Trust in DC terms. They can also be used to exchange within the II system.
> 
> If I take one of my PBC weeks and trade it for AP points then a week goes to the Club inventory pool for that year and I can use my points to look for inventory in the same way as any other club member. The AP Club basically only has one inventory bucket - which is distinctly different to the two inventory buckets in the DC system with Trust and Exchange inventory.


To bad Marriott didn't design the DC/Trust system the same as the AP system, it would have been more attractive, especially since there is no skim.  In fact, in would have been better if there was only one system, they should have opened the AP system to everyone and skipped the DC/Trust. 

Sounds like the OP is buying into a nice system, although costly up front, the MF's are not that bad: less than my Marriott and HGVC TS's.

Nice that the OP is getting enough points for PBC 2 Plat weeks.  Since all of the units at PBC are 2 BDRM, I assume that's 2 plat weeks in a 2 BDRM: not bad.

So, Waiohai (all 2 BDRM's) is the only Marriott TS on Kauai in the AP program, no KBC or Kauai Lagoons where an AP owner could use less points?


----------



## MALC9990 (Nov 6, 2014)

Ron98GT said:


> To bad Marriott didn't design the DC/Trust system the same as the AP system, it would have been more attractive, especially since there is no skim.  In fact, in would have been better if there was only one system, they should have opened the AP system to everyone and skipped the DC/Trust.
> 
> Sounds like the OP is buying into a nice system, although costly up front, the MF's are not that bad: less than my Marriott and HGVC TS's.
> 
> ...


33000 AP points only gets one week in Plat season at PBC.


----------



## m61376 (Nov 6, 2014)

If I am reading Malc9990's post above correctly, the OP is purchasing enough points for a single Plat. week reservation in a 2BR unit at PBC, at a purchase price in excess of four times what a single resale week would likely run. That's a pretty high premium.

My advice is the same as most of the above- you have 5 days to rescind, and a lifetime to buy. By virtue of the fact that you are even asking the question, your only choice should be to rescind. Take the time to learn about what you are buying, whether it is the best way to achieve your vacation objectives, and if there are other, more cost effective, ways of getting where and when you want to go. After you are satisfied you have a full understanding of what you are getting into, then it's the time to act. That's the best way to enjoy timesharing, without regrets.

BTW- welcome to TUG


----------



## Ron98GT (Nov 6, 2014)

MALC9990 said:


> 33000 AP points only gets one week in Plat season at PBC.


Which makes sense.


----------



## Ron98GT (Nov 6, 2014)

m61376 said:


> If I am reading Malc9990's post above correctly, the OP is purchasing enough points for a single Plat. week reservation in a 2BR unit at PBC, at a purchase price in excess of four times what a single resale week would likely run. That's a pretty high premium.
> 
> My advice is the same as most of the above- you have 5 days to rescind, and a lifetime to buy. By virtue of the fact that you are even asking the question, your only choice should be to rescind. Take the time to learn about what you are buying, whether it is the best way to achieve your vacation objectives, and if there are other, more cost effective, ways of getting where and when you want to go. After you are satisfied you have a full understanding of what you are getting into, then it's the time to act. That's the best way to enjoy timesharing, without regrets.
> 
> BTW- welcome to TUG


Which would make sense for you & me because we want to own weeks, no DC or AP points.  But there are many Marriott owners here on TUG that wanted DC points for one reason or another.  If you want points, your going to have to pay for them. I don't think that you can purchase AP or DC points in the resale market, and if you can what the cost would be and the availability.  So it goes back again, if you want to be in the points system, your going to pay (thru the nose) for them.

Being points and that I have very limited knowledge of the DC points system, let alone the AP system, I see no way that I could offer any advise either way, but it is interesting discussing the AP/DC system and learning more about it. It will also be interesting to learn which way the OP decides to go, although it sounds like they are leaning towards keeping their points contract and not canceling.


I have to agree 100% with BocaBoy:



BocaBoy said:


> ... I am continually amazed by the clear and forceful advice we sometimes see here from those who do not know the facts.  I am not trying to be quarrelsome, just objective.
> 
> Having said that, I thought MALC9990's post #6 was quite helpful.  It was not from a U.S. perspective.


----------



## pwrshift (Nov 6, 2014)

I agree totally with this post.

Brian



MALC9990 said:


> As you will already see, there will be comments about cancelling and stepping back before you commit the cash to this purchase. This is essentially sound advice if you were buying into the US Marriott Vacation Club points system since there are lots of weeks available for resale at Marriott Resorts on the resale market for much less than the price for enough points to be able to book a week at a resort in the USA.
> 
> However the decision is perhaps less straight forward for the Asia Pacific points system. Why is the AP decision not so straight forward? Well first the abailablility of resale weeks at a really low price is not nearly so plentiful. There is less of a market for resale weeks in the AP region and so if you want to get into the resorts like Phuket Beach Club or Mai Khao Beach Club as a new owner then AP points can be the only certain way.
> 
> ...


----------



## hybridE4t (Nov 6, 2014)

*High season:*

1. PBC rental (2 bedroom villa) via SMTN seems to be USD 2500 (unsure if this inc tax) + transaction fee
2. Booking on marriott.com (inc tax) is $2841 for an adv booking or $4376 otherwise
3. Using my AP would be most of my 33k annual allowance. Around 30k I think.

I will check paperwork once home for exact numbers but the cost of point usage is approximately:
MF: 30,000 x 0.034 = $1020
+
1 years use of 42 ownership outlay: 30,000 x $1.3 / 42 = $929
= 
$1949

I guess the true cost is a little more as I would be earning about 3% interest on the money if it was sitting in my bank account. On the flip side I also haven't factored in the free MRPs and Premier status benefits.

This doesn't seem too bad... what am I missing?

*Last-minute low season: *
1. PBC rental via SMTN seems to be USD 348 (inc transaction fee but unsure if this inc tax)
2. Via marriott.com last minutes deals would be $1578
3. Last minute AP bookings (less than 59 days) cost 10,000 points regardless of low/high season so a third of the above calculation comes to $650

Rental looks better here. The trouble is our eldest son starts school next year so I'm not sure to what extent we'll be able to take advantage of low season.


----------



## bazzap (Nov 6, 2014)

Just remember Low season = Rain, which in Thailand may be very heavy and prolonged.
You can be lucky, but it is high risk.


----------



## bazzap (Nov 6, 2014)

We own one Developer week and one Resale week at PBC.
I can't remember the exact cost of the Resale week, but it was less than $10k.
AP had by then in theory gone Points only, although they did find a Developer week option for us if we wanted it but at over $30k that was never going to happen!
As Malcolm says, $8-9k would seem a fair Resale week price for a High Season Platinum week.


----------



## hybridE4t (Nov 7, 2014)

If I were to buy resale in the future can I use these points alongside my developer points?

If I buy resale weeks now and convert them into the new points system I assume I'd lose some value - isn't this why many owners on the old system are selling?  This loss of value would be in addition to MVCI perks I would miss out on. However maybe I'm over-valuing the benefits you get by buying direct. If buying resale I'd rather buy points directly to keep things simple.

On a slightly separate note, has anyone valued Asia versus European versus US points? So far on this thread it seems that the Asia points may be better value/more flexible than the US equivalent.


----------



## MALC9990 (Nov 7, 2014)

hybridE4t said:


> *High season:*
> 
> 1. PBC rental (2 bedroom villa) via SMTN seems to be USD 2500 (unsure if this inc tax) + transaction fee
> 2. Booking on marriott.com (inc tax) is $2841 for an adv booking or $4376 otherwise
> ...



There are a few things I would add to your thoughts on rental rather than purchase.  

Week owners also offer their weeks for rental but not through Marriott.Com. Marriott.com get rental weeks from owners in exchange for Marriott reward points. A typical rental for a plat season week would be around $1800 which coverMFs nicely and is well under what you would pay Marriott.com. Obviously when renting from an owner you are making a transaction with an individual somewhere in the world and there are rsk issues that you would need to assess. These apply on both sides - hence the lower rental rate.

One of the advantages of points over a week ownership is flexibility. I own weeks in plat season, now if I want to use those weeks for Gold season, I must ether deposit with II and then exchange - but then I suffer a notional loss in that I give up a high season week for a low season week. This was why I bought my AP points back in 2009. A week in low season (Gold) costs 20000 AP points at PBC and MKB so I can trade in one of my PBC Plat season weeks for 32700 AP points and then use those and my annual 30000 AP points to reserve 3 weeks in Gold season whilst still retaining 2 Plat season weeks.

The late booking option mentioned by the OP is another AP points benefit. This is called an express booking and a week would only cost 10000 AP points. The issue here is availability. The availablity will be very low if not non-existent in the high season from December through to April especially at PBC. MKB is more of a possibility since there are no week owners and so the availability is all for AP points owners.

Someone already made the point that reserving a TS week, irrespective of how the reservation is being made, points or weeks, is not like booking a hotel. There needs to be much more forward planning and some options like Exress Bookings are last minute options and are not certain to be available.

The OP has also mentioned resale for points. Now the AP points system is a much more limited scheme than the DC - it was in effect MVCI's trial run for the subsequent introduction of the DC points system in the USA and then in Europe. 

A resale week added to a portfolio of AP points does make sense in that you can use both ways to manage a reservation using both - book two weeks in Plat season one with your points and on with your resale plat week.

You also mention your elder child will soon start school. That introduces the issue of school holidays. Your holiday window will then reduce significantly. This is where the flexibility of using points can be a benefit. You can look at booking a shorter break using points for a scholol holiday period whereas a week owner is stuck with a week at a time.


----------



## MALC9990 (Nov 7, 2014)

hybridE4t said:


> If I were to buy resale in the future can I use these points alongside my developer points?
> 
> If I buy resale weeks now and convert them into the new points system I assume I'd lose some value - isn't this why many owners on the old system are selling?  This loss of value would be in addition to MVCI perks I would miss out on. However maybe I'm over-valuing the benefits you get by buying direct. If buying resale I'd rather buy points directly to keep things simple.
> 
> On a slightly separate note, has anyone valued Asia versus European versus US points? So far on this thread it seems that the Asia points may be better value/more flexible than the US equivalent.



You should investigate the issue of buying resale weeks and then enrolling in the AP overlay system. The process is different to the DC points system where resale weeks bought now are NOT eligible for enrolement. In the AP system, a weeks owner wanting to enrole in the AP points system must first be an owner of AP points and then buy a number of additional points to be allowed to enrole a week in the overlay system. My last experience was that a weeks owner needed to by an additional 17000 AP points to get the right to enrole a week or several weeks in the AP points overlay system. Further - I do not know if resale weeks can be enroled since my weeks enroled were bought from MVCI direct.

You could also look into buying AP points on the resale market - this is a very small market todate since most resale sources are eith US based - e.g. REDWEEK.COM or European based brokers e.g. TRAVELANDLEISURE.CO.UK

I guess I might be one of the few AP point owners here on this forum and certainly one of a very few who own weeks in Europe and Phuket and also have AP Points and use DC points from my enrolled European weeks, so yes I have tried to compare the relative value of the different systems. 

The two points systems are different but very similar. The big difference is that there are many more resorts available in the DC Points system while the AP system is restricted to a few resorts but there are possibilities for the two systems becoming more linked in the future. AP points owners can already use AP points to reserve time at European MVCI resorts but at a greater cost of points. As a DC points enrolled owner, I cannot use DC points to access AP Points Club resorts availability but that may be something that comes on the future. Making the systems interchangeable in these ways would make sense for MVCI but there would probably be a cost for owners to make use of these interchange facilities - there has to be someting in it for MVCI.

On balance, I find my DC points more easily used than my AP points but that is probably because I live in the UK and so access to DC points availability is easier for me than using my AP points where the resorts are the other sode of the world. I just have to plan and work harder to ensure I use my AP points and not let them expire.


----------



## larryanderson (Nov 7, 2014)

*Marriott resale market*

I purchased my first unit in the resale market at a great price. Marriott has a first right of refusal and they purchased the first two I tried to buy. On the third try they did not exercise their right and I closed a two bedroom lock/off for under $4000.00.  The 2nd one cost $5,500.00 after 3 tries where marriott purchased ahead of me. This was also a two bedroom lock/off.  The third was a two bedroom lock off platinum plus July 4th week in Lake Tahoe for $11,500.00.

I love the system with Marriott.

All of the above where platinum or better.  I've tried again but it seems Marriott is buying everything back which is also a sign that the economy in time share is heating up again.


----------



## dioxide45 (Nov 8, 2014)

BocaBoy said:


> I have no idea how the Asia Pacific points system works, nor do almost any of the U.S. based posters on TUG.  Canceling may be a good idea but I have no idea because I don't know the facts.  I am continually amazed by the clear and forceful advice we sometimes see here from those who do not know the facts.  I am not trying to be quarrelsome, just objective.



I think we have enough facts. The owner only has a few days to cancel and doesn't know enough about the system and are coming to TUG to ask questions about it. The fact is that you can't learn everything you know to make an educated purchase like this in three days.

Rescind is by far the best advice anyone can give/get in this situation. The same deal will be there in a few weeks if they decide they still want to buy from the developer.


----------



## Ron98GT (Nov 8, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> I think we have enough facts. The owner only has a few days to cancel and doesn't know enough about the system and are coming to TUG to ask questions about it. The fact is that you can't learn everything you know to make an educated purchase like this in three days.
> 
> Rescind is by far the best advice anyone can give/get in this situation. The same deal will be there in a few weeks (If the OP fly's back to Thailand from Hong Kong, NOTE: this is my comment - Ron98GT) if they decide they still want to buy from the developer.


1. The OP already stated that they want to be part of the Marriott AP point system.

2. The OP already stated that they are not going to rescind.

3. But most importantly, because of the 5 day rescission and the current day and time of day in Thailand, it's now too late to rescind.


----------



## m61376 (Nov 8, 2014)

Ron98GT said:


> Which would make sense for you & me because we want to own weeks, no DC or AP points.  But there are many Marriott owners here on TUG that wanted DC points for one reason or another.  If you want points, your going to have to pay for them. I don't think that you can purchase AP or DC points in the resale market, and if you can what the cost would be and the availability.  So it goes back again, if you want to be in the points system, your going to pay (thru the nose) for them.
> 
> Being points and that I have very limited knowledge of the DC points system, let alone the AP system, I see no way that I could offer any advise either way, but it is interesting discussing the AP/DC system and learning more about it. It will also be interesting to learn which way the OP decides to go, although it sounds like they are leaning towards keeping their points contract and not canceling.
> 
> ...


What you say is true- and I wasn't meaning to imply in any way that a resale week was the only way to go. However, by virtue of the fact that the OP was here asking questions and undecided (which is great- that's what TUG is for) I think the advice to rescind and take the time to make sure you're making the best decision is appropriate, and not overstepping. MVCI will always be happy to make another deal, but they won't give you your money back later on.


----------



## Ron98GT (Nov 8, 2014)

m61376 said:


> What you say is true- and I wasn't meaning to imply in any way that a resale week was the only way to go. However, by virtue of the fact that the OP was here asking questions and undecided (which is great- that's what TUG is for) I think the advice to rescind and take the time to make sure you're making the best decision is appropriate, and not overstepping. MVCI will always be happy to make another deal, but they won't give you your money back later on.


If the OP wants to fly to Phuket from Honk Kong to pursue that or another deal. So yes the OP could get the same deal at a later date, but at the cost of thousands of dollars (airfare, lodging, meals, etc)


----------



## Quadmaniac (Nov 9, 2014)

Ron98GT said:


> If the OP wants to fly to Phuket from Honk Kong to pursue that or another deal. So yes the OP could get the same deal at a later date, but at the cost of thousands of dollars (airfare, lodging, meals, etc)



I am positive if he made a phone call they would gladly sell it to him over the phone.

One thing that was not mentioned is that I very often see all of these resorts available quite readily using my resale weeks to trade on Interval. They seem to be quite plentiful and based on what I have seen, it would be cheaper to buy a cheap US resale week to trade into Thailand as it seems to be an easy trade. In the past 4 years I have been able to trade into hard to get places like Hawaii for Christmas, springbreak and summer holidays, so an easy to trade into location like Thailand should be much easier. As with everything, it does take some patience but I would rather spend $1 - 4k than $30K plus to get less. Just my thoughts on it.

The other aspect to keep in mind, while points can give you more flexibility it is still CONTINGENT on availability. Just like the DC system, you can have all the points in the world, but if there is no availability, you will not be able to go at the time you are seeking at Christmas and springbreak as every other family with school aged children want as well. There will be a lot of competition for these key times and you may not always get what you want from there either. Spending more does not guarantee you anything more than a resale week, it all boils down to availability.


----------



## m61376 (Nov 9, 2014)

As posted above, unless things are very different overseas, there is no need to be on site to make a purchase. A quick phone call and the rep will be more than happy to take your money and make a sale.


----------



## hybridE4t (Nov 10, 2014)

Hi everyone. Thanks so much for the rapid and thorough community support and particularly MALC9990 for the AP insight. You'll be pleased to know I decided to cancel (on day 5 of 5!) and am waiting for the confirmation this week  I totally agree that there's no incentive to rush into a purchase.

I am still inclined to buy some developer points once I've done some more research but may end up buying a smaller number then topping up with resale points. I'm less comfortable with the idea of weeks but it's good to know then could be an economical option in the future.

One thing I'd like to look into more are the pros and cons of buying to the Asia model versus the rest of the world. In addition to HK I also have an address in the UK and don't like they heavy dependency that the vacation club asia has on II. Having said that the AP system seems a little more flexible and possibly a little cheaper so I'll try and extract some of the differences already highlighted in this thread and start a new one.

For completeness I'll update again once I hear back from the vacation club. Thanks again!


----------



## MALC9990 (Nov 10, 2014)

hybridE4t said:


> Hi everyone. Thanks so much for the rapid and thorough community support and particularly MALC9990 for the AP insight. You'll be pleased to know I decided to cancel (on day 5 of 5!) and am waiting for the confirmation this week  I totally agree that there's no incentive to rush into a purchase.
> 
> I am still inclined to buy some developer points once I've done some more research but may end up buying a smaller number then topping up with resale points. I'm less comfortable with the idea of weeks but it's good to know then could be an economical option in the future.
> 
> ...



First I want to say that you have probably made a sound decision to cancel and investigate more. As we all have said, there will be another deal along later that you can buy into if you decide that is what you want to do. Stay around here and use the informtion to help make your decision. 

Now the good news. The advisory board of directors of Phuket Beach Club met for their annual meeting with MVCI just last week. Marriott were able to announce that they continue to work on a process that will allow AP and DC points owners to interchange points. We also hope that this will allow Phuket Beach Club Weeks owners to enrol their weeks in the DC points system. This will benefit both groups of members by expanding their opportunities for vacations and also help MVCI fill vacant units in Phuket.

With an address in the UK, you are better able to look at the resale weeks market through UK based resale brokers.

You should also look at this WEB site http://www.vacationpointexchange.com

The site was set up by a TUG member and can be used to exchange DC and AP points between owners thus enabling one member with excess points to rent them to another member who needs points for a reservation. Most people using the site are TUG members. This site can also be used to initiate a resale process and whilst not used for that process so far it could easily be used for this.

As to the relative merits of the two points systems, for me the AP points system is more attractive of the two - kind of the lesser of two evils it you will. Why? Well in the case of the DC, you buy into the property trust and do so in perpituity. This has ramifications for the future. IN the case of the AP points, you become the member of a Right to Use vacation club. All the units are owned by the Club not the members. There is a defined end date after which your membership ends. 

As for Interval International - this is IMHO an excellent exchange system and I've used it extensively over the years. MVCI is a significant partner with II and so I would not worry to much over this point.


----------



## nakyak (Nov 10, 2014)

Rescind now!   

You can find a better offer and Asia / Pacific points owners do not receive the same level of service or benefits as a traditional owner


----------



## hybridE4t (Nov 11, 2014)

MALC9990 said:


> AP points owners can already use AP points to reserve time at European MVCI resorts but at a greater cost of points. As a DC points enrolled owner, I cannot use DC points to access AP Points Club resorts availability but that may be something that comes on the future.



My understanding is that AP points can only be used within the AP resorts. Otherwise you have to go via II. Is that what you meant re reserving at the European resorts? I'm surprised the reverse is not true. Are the AP resorts therefore not on II?


----------



## hybridE4t (Nov 11, 2014)

MALC9990 said:


> As to the relative merits of the two points systems, for me the AP points system is more attractive of the two - kind of the lesser of two evils it you will. Why? Well in the case of the DC, you buy into the property trust and do so in perpituity. This has ramifications for the future. IN the case of the AP points, you become the member of a Right to Use vacation club. All the units are owned by the Club not the members. There is a defined end date after which your membership ends.



Would you mind elaborating on this?

1. Re perpetuity, do you mean DC points have no expiry date? Surely that is better value? AP points currently only have 42 years to expiry.
2. Re buying into the property trust, as a (potential) point owner surely it wouldn't matter to me whether the physical properties themselves are effectively owned by individuals on the legacy system or the Club? In both systems aren't pure point owners effectively in a right to use relationship? 

Clearly I still need to do more reading...


----------



## bazzap (Nov 11, 2014)

I hesitate to mention this, as nothing is documented yet and I won't really believe it until I see it in writing and understand exactly what it says.
However, we were advised at a Sales Presentation today that the new single, global points currency "Marriott Vacations Worldwide Points" available early 2015 will allow DC and AP Points Owners, Enrolled Owners, Overlay Owners... who have "converted" (I hate use of that word in this context, it is very misleading) to use their points to book any of the MVW resorts worldwide.
Time will tell and we shall see.


----------



## MALC9990 (Nov 11, 2014)

hybridE4t said:


> My understanding is that AP points can only be used within the AP resorts. Otherwise you have to go via II. Is that what you meant re reserving at the European resorts? I'm surprised the reverse is not true. Are the AP resorts therefore not on II?



The European Resorts have been included in the AP Program as part of the Club Connections - so they are being treated like Hotels in that respect. So you use AP point to book a unit at so many points per night.


----------



## MALC9990 (Nov 11, 2014)

hybridE4t said:


> Would you mind elaborating on this?
> 
> 1. Re perpetuity, do you mean DC points have no expiry date? Surely that is better value? AP points currently only have 42 years to expiry.
> 2. Re buying into the property trust, as a (potential) point owner surely it wouldn't matter to me whether the physical properties themselves are effectively owned by individuals on the legacy system or the Club? In both systems aren't pure point owners effectively in a right to use relationship?
> ...



Yes, AP points do expire, but the DC point system points do not expire. In the AP system there is only one type of point - basically in the AP Club you buy points which give you the Right to use the resort properties owned by the Club for the specified number of years - as long as you pay your annual maintenance fees.  

In the DC points system there are in effect two types of DC points – Trust points (backed up by beneficial interests in the properties owned by the Trust, and exchange points which are backed by the weeks that owners have exchanged for DC points that year.

Outside the USA, all Marriott Vacation Club resorts are Right to Use properties. When buying a week at Phuket Beach Club, the buyer was buying the right to use the week for a specified number of years. 

The same applies to resorts in Spain and France. This also applies to the resorts in the Caribbean that are outside US jurisdiction (St. Kitts and Aruba) - I am not sure if the resort in St. Thomas (US Virgin isles) is RTU or deeded property owned in perpetuity. In the continental USA and also Hawaii all resorts are deeded property (except Custom House in Boston - the building there is actually leased and so on a certain date in the future it gets given back to the owners or Marriott negotiates a new lease. However, all the ownership rights to use will terminate). So when a buyer in the USA buys DC points - what they buy is called a beneficial Interest in the Trust that actually owns all the deeded weeks that form part of the DC resort inventory. This inventory comprises almost all of the unsold weeks as at 10th Jun 2010 that Marriott had on their books. Not every single unsold week was transferred; Marriott retained a quantity for their future use - some they have subsequently transferred into the Trust since that date and some they just still retain. A Beneficial Interest equates to 250 DC points. So if you buy 2500 DC Trust points what you actually buy is 10 beneficial interests in the DC Trust and so own 10 beneficial interests in all of the weeks conveyed by Marriott into the Trust.

Since the DC Trust ownership is in perpetuity, no weeks at any RTU resort can be conveyed into the trust since RTU resorts have an end date and the trust is In Perpetuity. What happens at an RTU resort on the end date is defined in the original governing documents and differs from resort to resort. For example at Son Antem in Majorca, at the end date the resort is to be sold and the proceeds are distributed to the weeks owners at that time. Now since the date in question is long after I will have passed on to a better or worse place - I'm not concerned but someone will be owners at that time and will get a windfall. I must read my governing documents for Phuket Beach Club to find out what will happen there - whatever it is it will not concern me.

Each of the two points system allows weeks owners at the respective resorts to enrol their weeks into the points system. What this means is that each year the week owner can decide whether to use his/her week as normal by reserving, or they can decide to exchange their week for a defined number of points for use in the points system that year. In this case the week owner is credited with points for the week and the points system has another week added to the inventory for that year only. Which week in the year that is added depends on what season the week owner owned in and what was available at the time in the resorts weeks inventory. The week owner does not need to reserve a week before exchanging for points. Over and above all of this or course, the week owner has the facility to exchange through Interval International's exchange programme.

As for your point 2 – A DC Trust point owner is not in an RTU relationship with the Trust – they actually own a number of beneficial interests in the Trust in perpetuity. This is very different to an RTU relationship.

One significant difference is what happens when you fail to pay your MFs and dues. At my Marriott RTU resorts and in the AP Points Club, what happens is that after two years of being delinquent in my dues and MFs, all my ownership and membership is terminated. I lose my weeks and/or AP points and the inventory that relates to is reclaimed by Marriott and can be sold again. In the case of AP points they return to the pool of unsold points held by the Club Manager. In the case of my weeks at PBC, they can be sold again if Marriott decide to do that or most like they are transferred to the AP Club Inventory. In the Deeded Property situation for weeks owners and owners of beneficial interests in the DC Trust – this cannot happen and then the delinquent owner is sued for the debts that they have.


----------



## hybridE4t (Nov 13, 2014)

Thank you so much for the comprehensive response! 

So assuming one does not default on their payments, the DC points sound better value as you own them rather than lease them. Not that I'd be hoping to resell them but presumably the resale value of AP points will steadily worsen as we approach the year 2056.

I'm much encouraged to learn that AP points have access to the European resorts via Club Connections. If I were to buy them resale my understanding is that I have ALL rights except the ability to convert to MRP and the ability to refer people. Is that correct?

Potentially I guess I could buy the minimum number of developer points then top up with resale points. If I were to buy 12000 AP (or DC equivalent) points from the developer and 28000 resale would the Club let me convert all 30k points to MRP or would they treat the developer and resale points separately?


----------



## hybridE4t (Nov 13, 2014)

bazzap said:


> I hesitate to mention this, as nothing is documented yet and I won't really believe it until I see it in writing and understand exactly what it says.
> However, we were advised at a Sales Presentation today that the new single, global points currency "Marriott Vacations Worldwide Points" available early 2015 will allow DC and AP Points Owners, Enrolled Owners, Overlay Owners... who have "converted" (I hate use of that word in this context, it is very misleading) to use their points to book any of the MVW resorts worldwide.
> Time will tell and we shall see.



That would be amazing! Early 2015 isn't far off


----------



## bazzap (Nov 13, 2014)

hybridE4t said:


> That would be amazing! Early 2015 isn't far off


True.
To be fair though, we had previously been told that it would be by end 2014 and they are now saying by end April 2015 but there is still a lot of work to do!
And even then, it is not clear exactly how it will work in practice.
Don't get me wrong, I really want it to work simply, cheaply and easily but I do have my reservations.


----------



## jimf41 (Nov 13, 2014)

MALC9990 said:


> The same applies to resorts in Spain and France. This also applies to the resorts in the Caribbean that are outside US jurisdiction (St. Kitts and Aruba) - I am not sure if the resort in St. Thomas (US Virgin isles) is RTU or deeded property owned in perpetuity.



Frenchmans Cove in St Thomas is a deeded property for the weeks that they sold. Also, it does not have ROFR. The units yet to be built and some of the unsold weeks were placed in or will be placed in the trust.


----------



## MALC9990 (Nov 13, 2014)

bazzap said:


> I hesitate to mention this, as nothing is documented yet and I won't really believe it until I see it in writing and understand exactly what it says.
> However, we were advised at a Sales Presentation today that the new single, global points currency "Marriott Vacations Worldwide Points" available early 2015 will allow DC and AP Points Owners, Enrolled Owners, Overlay Owners... who have "converted" (I hate use of that word in this context, it is very misleading) to use their points to book any of the MVW resorts worldwide.
> Time will tell and we shall see.



Barry, I think this subject (Marriott Vacations Worldwide Points) deserves its own thread here - what do you think? The implications go beyond those for owners of weeks at Phuket beach Club and Asia Pacific Club points members to the wider community of Destinations Club Points Owners and Enrolled Weeks owners.


----------



## SueDonJ (Nov 13, 2014)

MALC9990 said:


> Barry, I think this subject (Marriott Vacations Worldwide Points) deserves its own thread here - what do you think? The implications go beyond those for owners of weeks at Phuket beach Club and Asia Pacific Club points members to the wider community of Destinations Club Points Owners and Enrolled Weeks owners.



If it ever happens then I'm in complete agreement, it will deserve its own thread.  It will be important enough for its own sticky thread!

But it's only a rumor that's been floated for years now, since the inception of the DC, started by reps who've been asked when/if the Euro and A-P resorts will be integrated with the DC.  None of these reps, whether corporate or sales staff, have been willing to officially put their names to the statements.  Plus there are various versions of the rumor and this latest "one worldwide program" sounds, to me, less promising than any of the previous versions.  Think of how many local/state/federal/international laws, regulations and mandates would have to be combined and approved in order to implement this singular product!

So unless/until there are official reports of the A-P and/or Euro resorts being more fully integrated with the DC, any rumors about it happening can fall on TUG wherever they're mentioned as a tangent.  I hope that's understandable.


----------



## bazzap (Nov 13, 2014)

MALC9990 said:


> Barry, I think this subject (Marriott Vacations Worldwide Points) deserves its own thread here - what do you think? The implications go beyond those for owners of weeks at Phuket beach Club and Asia Pacific Club points members to the wider community of Destinations Club Points Owners and Enrolled Weeks owners.


Whilst we are here at PBC, several other friends will be attending "update" sessions, so it will be interesting to hear whether there is a consistent story.
Once I know, I will be contacting Rance as well as Customer Advocacy endeavouring to seek a more formal update statement.
Again no great expectations, but one can only ask!


----------

