# Starwood changed 5* Qualification without notice



## OKPACIFIC (Sep 17, 2008)

We received an update that Starwood is changing its requirements for [5 Star Elite] from 559,000 to 649,000 staroptions effective today. Is anyone else hearing this?





[Edited for clarification - DeniseM Moderator]


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## LisaRex (Sep 17, 2008)

OKPACIFIC said:


> We received an update that Starwood is changing its requirments for the platinum card from 559,000 to 649,000 staroptions effective today. Is anyone else hearing this?



Clarification:  So you're saying that in order to receive Platinum SPG status, which is one of the benefits of being a 5* SVO member, you now have to acquire 649,000 StarOptions?

(The platinum AMEX card has nothing to do with SVO elite program.)


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## pointsjunkie (Sep 17, 2008)

OKPACIFIC said:


> We received an update that Starwood is changing its requirments for the platinum card from 559,000 to 649,000 staroptions effective today. Is anyone else hearing this?



could you send over the e-mail so we can read it?  thanks.


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## Westin5Star (Sep 17, 2008)

I'm glad that I have 740,500 SO, however next year when they raise the limit to 750,000 SO I will be out of luck.

I really doubt that they would make this change, but then again I am rarely surprised by Starwood given their history.  I thought it was incorrect information last year when it was announced that they changed the automatic room upgrade for 5*.  We all know now that it was true.  Hopefully, this time it is incorrect information.


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## oneohana (Sep 17, 2008)

I was told that once you reach a level, you will be locked in.:hysterical: 
Hopefully this is the case.

They always used the threat of increasing the amount of *options to get to 5*elite. It worked on me. I wanted the PFL benefit.


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## OKPACIFIC (Sep 17, 2008)

This is the relevant portion from an e-mail we received yesterday from the Starwood sales rep with whom we have been working.

The reason for my email is I have promised many of my owners to inform them immediately if the Platinum cards as part of the 5*Elite program are to suddenly vanish and I was informed today, that while they won't be vanishing yet, the requirement for one is increasing from 559,000 options to 649,000 options effective tomorrow.  I apologize for the short notice, but this is all I have received.


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## pointsjunkie (Sep 17, 2008)

all people who are already 5* will be grandfathered in and all new people will be required to get to the new level. 3* and 4* have not changed.

called starwood elite services and they verified this info.


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## Henry M. (Sep 17, 2008)

I got the same story from Elite Member Services. 

The change is basically an increase in the number of StarOptions needed to reach the 5 Star level, not anything special just to get the SPG Platinum benefit. Those already 5 Star will remain at that level even if they are below this new level of required StarOptions.


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## Henry M. (Sep 17, 2008)

Deleted. The post I was referring to disappeared!


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## DJmonkey (Sep 17, 2008)

Well this sucks for me :ignore:  :annoyed:  
Congrats to all of you grandfathered in


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## SDKath (Sep 17, 2008)

Confirmed for me too.    

No warning!!!???  HELLLOOOOOOO??????  
I am trying soooo hard to stay positive about Starwood but this pretty much has thrown me over the edge into nodge-land.

Where is nodge anyway?  I need him to help me compose a nice letter to the powers that be.  

Kath


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## tomandrobin (Sep 17, 2008)

SDKath said:


> No warning!!!???  HELLLOOOOOOO??????
> I am trying soooo hard to stay positive about Starwood but this pretty much has thrown me over the edge into nodge-land.
> 
> Kath



Didn't you finish and become 5* elite?


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## bizaro86 (Sep 17, 2008)

> The reason for my email is I have promised many of my owners to inform them immediately if the Platinum cards as part of the 5*Elite program are to suddenly vanish and I was informed today, that while they won't be vanishing *yet*, the requirement for one is increasing from 559,000 options to 649,000 options effective tomorrow. I apologize for the short notice, but this is all I have received.



While I understand this is just an email from a salesperson, there was one specific word in there that stuck out to me. See if you can spot which one it is...

Michael


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## Westin5Star (Sep 18, 2008)

Since they are increasing the requirement to get to 5* are they going to increase the benefits as well?  Maybe we will get our auto villa upgrade back, or daily housekeeping, or no further SP devaluation, or something.


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## nodge (Sep 18, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Confirmed for me too.
> 
> No warning!!!???  HELLLOOOOOOO??????
> I am trying soooo hard to stay positive about Starwood but this pretty much has thrown me over the edge into nodge-land.
> ...



Hi Kath!

I'm away on business staying in a Westin that charges $14.95/day for internet access.  Considering the fact that I was able to Priceline the room for $60/night (except the first night when I used SPG “cash  & points” to test my SPG Plat status, which I’ll report on later), I can’t justify staying regularly connected while here.  (If anyone happens to be in the Detroit area, GM has one of its highly anticipated, and formerly super secret, Chevy Volts on display outside the RenCen downtown, and the new $430 million dollar North Terminal at DTW finally opened today!).   Yep, things are booming here in the rust belt.  Well, if you’re a casino that is.  (Downtown Detroit now "boasts" having 3 casinos).

Is anyone really surprised that SVO did what it did considering this and this and this?

I’m just surprised that it elected to grandfather in current 5 Stars.  This is the absolute first time of which I’m aware where SVO gave enough of a rat’s ass about any class of existing owners to voluntarily elect to continue to honor its promises made to them to induce past developer sales even though continuing to honor those promises will not likely lead to any new developer sales.

Kath:  Please tell us that you had made 5 Star before today.  If not, in the words of Elphaba (the “Wicked” Witch, or is she?) in the show stopper song “Defying Gravity” from _Wicked_  . . . 

“Unlimited!   . . .  Together we’re unlimited!  . . . Together we’ll be the greatest team there’s ever been . . . . There’s no fight we cannot win! . . .  They’ll never bring us down!” 

 Welcome to the dark side.

-nodge 

Fun Wicked Fact:  _Wicked_ novelist Gregory Maguire invented the wicked witch’s name “Elphaba” based on the initials of the author of _The Wizard of Oz. _ L. Frank Baum:  L-F-B = Elphaba.


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## califgal (Sep 18, 2008)

> Fun Wicked Fact: Wicked novelist Gregory Maguire invented the wicked witch’s name “Elphaba” based on the initials of the author of The Wizard of Oz. L. Frank Baum: L-F-B = Elphaba.



Although off topic...what a great fun fact..my daughter will love it...can't wait to see Wicked in SF! Got tickets for FEB!!!


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## SDKath (Sep 18, 2008)

The 5* is up in the air.  Turns out I bought 2009 first use Fountains units (to avoid the assessment fees) so as of right now, it is not at all clear.  But I am talking to the powers that be.  I think it will work out....

Or I will become you personified (nodge wannabee).  You need a female "nodge" on this site too, right?  I will be up for the role.   

Kath


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## SDKath (Sep 18, 2008)

califgal said:


> Although off topic...what a great fun fact..my daughter will love it...can't wait to see Wicked in SF! Got tickets for FEB!!!



My DD saw it in Los Angeles last month!   Great production!  K


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## SDKath (Sep 18, 2008)

Westin5Star said:


> Since they are increasing the requirement to get to 5* are they going to increase the benefits as well?  Maybe we will get our auto villa upgrade back, or daily housekeeping, or no further SP devaluation, or something.



Sure.  But only for you.   K


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## Ken555 (Sep 18, 2008)

SDKath said:


> The 5* is up in the air.  Turns out I bought 2009 first use Fountains units (to avoid the assessment fees) so as of right now, it is not at all clear.  But I am talking to the powers that be.  I think it will work out....



Kath, 

If SVN says no, please talk with a lawyer. 

Their actions should not apply to you, as you would be part of the "prepaid eligible group" (or however they define those whom are grandfathered into 5*/Plat). This would be especially true if you have any emails or other papers from your sales rep stating you would be 5* once you purchase, etc - since you relied upon those assurances as a basis of your purchase. 

The intention of your Fountains purchase was to reach the 5* goal, and the start use year is immaterial to that end since you purchased prior to their new 5* level. You will certainly end up with 5* & Platinum - it's just a matter of how far you go to demand it.

Ken


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## Gypsie (Sep 18, 2008)

*5* Platinum Status*

Hello Everyone,
I have been reading these posts about the new requirements to reach platinum and figured that it would not apply to me since I had already received my new "handy dandy" platinum SPG card.  However, it sounds like since my new Fountains purchase use week does not begin until 2009, I am not so sure.  I am going to contact Starwood and find out what my status is.  I'll report back after my findings.


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## Westin5Star (Sep 18, 2008)

After traveling to WPORV for the past two weeks, we were actually considering selling it.  If I sell, I will only have 592,400 SO though.  Would I still be grandfathered in if I reduce my number of SO?

This brings up another valid point:
Starwood has a very hard time keeping track of people's names, addresses, ownership weeks, and reservations.  I do not know how they plan to track having two different sets of 5* Elite lists but I do not have much confidence.  I can see people with less than 649k SO constantly having to do battle to verify their 5* status.


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## Negma (Sep 18, 2008)

Westin5Star said:


> After traveling to WPORV for the past two weeks, we were actually considering selling it.  If I sell, I will only have 592,400 SO though.  Would I still be grandfathered in if I reduce my number of SO?
> 
> I am concerned as well, but why are you selling? This does not sound like you.


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## myip (Sep 18, 2008)

Westin5Star said:


> After traveling to WPORV for the past two weeks, we were actually considering selling it.  If I sell, I will only have 592,400 SO though.  Would I still be grandfathered in if I reduce my number of SO?
> 
> This brings up another valid point:
> Starwood has a very hard time keeping track of people's names, addresses, ownership weeks, and reservations.  I do not know how they plan to track having two different sets of 5* Elite lists but I do not have much confidence.  I can see people with less than 649k SO constantly having to do battle to verify their 5* status.




If you sell it, I doubt you will be grandfather in.. However, if you are already marked as 5 * with less than 649K staroptions, I don't think you will have much problem. When I was 4*, I have phatom staroptions.  In mystarcentral, it shows less staroptions than nessary for 4 Stars.  When I call svn, they know that I am 4 stars.


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## Transit (Sep 18, 2008)

Dissappointing news.


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## Maui_ed (Sep 18, 2008)

Has anyone been able to verify this information independently? My brother is currently 5-Star elite and I would like to be able to tell him for sure if his status will remain intact or not. He will be travelling to Maui in about a month and might want to take the matter up with the on-site sales folks.


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## Westin5Star (Sep 18, 2008)

We are considering selling WPORV for many reasons.  They are not in any particular order:

1.  The construction of the property is sort of cheap compared to other newer hotels / resorts that we have stayed at.  The walls are very thin.  Even with pretty quite neighbors you can hear them pretty easily.  Smells (food, mouldy towels, passing gas / restroom) move from room to room very often; I do not think that our neighbors were particulary loud or smelly it was just the way things were built.  The fixtures and lights have sort of a cheap feel to them (in my opinion).
2.  The air conditioning units are way too loud.  They often woke my wife and I up and we don't sleep well with the windows open.  Maybe we would be better off on the 1st floor which might not have so much heat come into the room.
3.  While we like how spread out the resort is, the landscaping and feel of the resort just seemed ok.  This might change somewhat once the landscaping gets more mature but I don't think that we will ever really love it.
4.  The food is just ok and I don't really like driving to go get meals all the time or taking a shuttle to the St. Regis.  I have come to appreciate the options and variety from the shuttle in WKORV, the options at HRA, and WLR.  I assume that the menu will develop overtime but we just didn't really care for the food.
5.  I knew that beach access was an issue at this resort before we bought it.  I didn't realize that it would bother me as much as it did.  There are many nice beaches on Kauai that you can hike or drive to but I guess I just prefer it being easier to get to.
6.  There is no swim up bar; I had to throw that in.

When I go on vacation, I like to feel as if we are in at least as nice a place as our house.  I would rather be at my house as far as quality, fixtures, landscaping, etc. than at WPORV.  We visited some friends last week at the Grand Hyatt Poipu and we were so impressed with the quality and feel of the resort, the food variety and quality, beach access, etc.  Most of the items that are an issue for us at WPORV cannot realistically ever be improved at the resort.

The MF at WPORV are very high.  This would not be a big factor if we planned on visiting the resort every year.  Unfortunately, I think we would end up exchanging our SO from the resort most of the time.  If I am going to own something to exchange in the Starwood system, then I have much better alternatives.  

Hopefully this post will not sour anyone on WPORV as it is a decent resort.  We all have different preferences and these opinions / observations are just mine.  With that said there were many positives at the resort that I did not point out here but the positives just do not outweigh the negatives enough IMO.


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## Maui_ed (Sep 18, 2008)

Great information, Westin5Star. We bought an EY WPORV over a year ago and have yet to visit the resort. We have kind of fallen for Maui, and have used WPORV to exhange into WKORV and WKORVN. Fortunately the exchanges have gone well for us. We plan to visit Kauai next fall, possibly. We feel that we should go to one of our home resorts at least once.  

Then again, as easy as it has been to trade within the Starwood system...


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 18, 2008)

SDKath said:


> My DD saw it in Los Angeles last month!   Great production!  K



There is a presale going on right now for Wicked in SF before tix go on sale to the public - the passcode is 13Green (via Ticketmaster) - enjoy.  We saw it when it was here in SF last time - bought scalped tix via CL - fantastic show and great story line.


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 18, 2008)

Sorry to hear about your bad review (Westin5*) - as we tend to think alike - I am glad we only got an EOY. Your #1 and #2 points would bother me also.
I hope you passed on this info to WPORV management...


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## jarta (Sep 18, 2008)

*5* Grandfathered*

I am at Mountain Vista now (nicer place than I thought it would be).  

Last Sunday, my wife and I purchased 2 2-br Platinum lockoffs at Lagunamar for $21,450 each (one even; one odd) and used them to retro our 2 non-developer purchases at Kierland (148,100 options) and Harborside (196,900 options) - and to achieve 5* status at the old, 559,000 level.

Since the announcement came out yesterday, I immediately ran upstairs to the sales office today and asked about being grandfathered.  I was directed to a document entitled: *Starwood Vacation Network Elite Level Enrollment Form* - which states that as of September 14, 2008 we are Five Star SVN Elite Members.  I was told that because of the dates on the agreements and because the document had been issued on that date, we were grandfathered.

If there is any problem at a later time, we intend to use these documents as proof of the date we became 5*.  I believe that anyone who earlier achieved 5* was given a similar document in the purchase package.  So, I don't expect problems, but we'll just have to see.


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## tomandrobin (Sep 18, 2008)

Jarta 

Congrats for making 5* elite by 3 days!


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## Henry M. (Sep 18, 2008)

Maui_ed said:


> Has anyone been able to verify this information independently? My brother is currently 5-Star elite and I would like to be able to tell him for sure if his status will remain intact or not. He will be travelling to Maui in about a month and might want to take the matter up with the on-site sales folks.



I don't know what you mean independently verified but several people, including me, have said they talked to member services and they verified that this only applies to new people reaching 5* and that those that had it before the effective date are all grandfathered in. Your brother should be OK.


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## capjak (Sep 18, 2008)

jarta said:


> I am at Mountain Vista now (nicer place than I thought it would be).
> 
> Last Sunday, my wife and I purchased 2 2-br Platinum lockoffs at Lagunamar for $21,450 each (one even; one odd) and used them to retro our 2 non-developer purchases at Kierland (148,100 options) and Harborside (196,900 options) - and to achieve 5* status at the old, 559,000 level.



That's a great deal did you get starpoint incentive as well?


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## Denise L (Sep 18, 2008)

*Wow!*

Congrats to Jarta on making 5* with the retroing and EOY purchases!

I am still sad sometimes that with our $45,000 purchase so long ago, the 3-5* levels had never been "invented" by Starwood, and therefore we never knew that such a level of service was possible.  If we had not purchased then, we could have achieved 5* by buying two resales and two developer weeks for about the same price.

Oh well.  Since we don't have a crystal ball, who could have known?  Ya think there would be some perk for folks who bought early at full freight....


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## oneohana (Sep 18, 2008)

Congrats Jarta.


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## SDKath (Sep 18, 2008)

jarta said:


> I am at Mountain Vista now (nicer place than I thought it would be).
> 
> Last Sunday, my wife and I purchased 2 2-br Platinum lockoffs at Lagunamar for $21,450 each (one even; one odd) and used them to retro our 2 non-developer purchases at Kierland (148,100 options) and Harborside (196,900 options) - and to achieve 5* status at the old, 559,000 level.
> 
> ...



CONGRATULATIONS.  Can I ask about the Math though for 559,000?

WKV = 148,100 retro'd
Harborside = 196,000 retro'd
Lagunamar = 148,100 (EOY E and O)

My math tells me that is less than 500,000 SOs.  Did you own something else before?

Thanks!

Katherine


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## tomandrobin (Sep 18, 2008)

SDKath said:


> CONGRATULATIONS.  Can I ask about the Math though for 559,000?
> 
> WKV = 148,100 retro'd
> Harborside = 196,000 retro'd
> ...



I think they had bought a Lagunamar previously.


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## jarta (Sep 18, 2008)

capjak,   ...   "That's a great deal did you get starpoint incentive as well?"

Yes, we got starpoint incentives for both new purchases at Lagunamar.  As for getting a great deal, We're still out about $43K.  Given the volatility of the markets this week, such a deal?  lol (I think)!

The 2 purchases (with retros) were added to our earlier developer purchase at Lagunamar of an annual 2-br Platinum lockoff.  I figure my membership in TUG has saved us about $40K.  Thanks, TUGers.


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## Ken555 (Sep 18, 2008)

jarta said:


> I figure my membership in TUG has saved us about $40K.  Thanks, TUGers.



Nice! Time to buy a TUG membership then?


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## tomandrobin (Sep 18, 2008)

jarta said:


> capjak,   ...   "That's a great deal did you get starpoint incentive as well?"
> 
> Yes, we got starpoint incentives for both new purchases at Lagunamar.  As for getting a great deal, We're still out about $43K.  Given the volatility of the markets this week, such a deal?  lol (I think)!
> 
> The 2 purchases (with retros) were added to our earlier developer purchase at Lagunamar of an annual 2-br Platinum lockoff.  I figure my membership in TUG has saved us about $40K.  Thanks, TUGers.



640,300 staroptions, throw in some phantom staroptions and you make it to 5* elite either way! Again, congratulations!


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## jarta (Sep 18, 2008)

Ken555,   ...   "Nice! Time to buy a TUG membership then?"

Sorry, Ken, I'm already a TUG Member.  I paid up and joined in February before I ever posted here.  My TUG Member password is TUG193**.  I'm not a Guest; I'm a Member.  The problem is that TUG administration never has gotten it right, and I never thought I'd get ragged on because of their error.

So, now that you and administration at TUG know, would someone please change my "Status" to the proper one?

Still, purchasing my membership in TUG was the best investment I ever made.  Jim Rooney


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## Ken555 (Sep 18, 2008)

jarta said:


> Sorry, Ken, I'm already a TUG Member.  I paid up and joined in February before I ever posted here.  My TUG Member password is TUG193**.  I'm not a Guest; I'm a Member.  The problem is that TUG administration never has gotten it right, and I never thought I'd get ragged on because of their error.
> 
> So, now that you and administration at TUG know, would someone please change my "Status" to the proper one?



Excellent. Read this and follow the directions.


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## jarta (Sep 18, 2008)

Ken,   ...   "Excellent. Read this and follow the directions."

Thanks for the orders, but at the risk of being dense, the instructions don't work for me.

Here is what TUG sent me about my member password earlier this month.

"TUG Password‏ 
From: tug@tug2.net 
 You may not know this sender.Mark as safe|Mark as unsafe 
Sent: Sat 9/06/08 8:42 AM 
To:  james_rooney@msn.com 

Hello from Timeshare Users Group, here is your password to log into the TUG MEMBER ONLY section. Here is your current username and password:

Username: jarta
Password: TUG193**"

Here's what comes up when I follow the instructions and try to enter the Member code in the BBS profile:

"jarta: You have an unrecognized value entered in the BBS Member Code field of your bbs profile. Your entry, 'TUG193**', is not the current BBS Member Code. This is why the bbs shows your status as Guest rather than TUG Member."

Of course, I replaced the last 2 numbers with **.

So, I guess I'll just have to run the risk of continually being ragged upon for being a "Guest" - but TUG knows better because it has the money.  Jim Rooney


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## Ken555 (Sep 18, 2008)

jarta said:


> Thanks for the orders, but at the risk of being dense, the instructions don't work for me.



Wow. Are you purposefully intending to insult me...now twice? 

Mod, please chime in here.


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 18, 2008)

It is not the BBS password you received - it is the other one - I fear you are putting that password into the wrong location.  these are two separate things

try this one...

http://tug2.com/TUGMembers/Login.aspx

OR...

The Tug Moderator responsible hasn't gotten around to it.


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## gumbert 2 (Sep 18, 2008)

*Starwood and Vistana Resort*

Starwood is getting mighty greedy.  they are increased points, requirements, and owners are getting less.  We own 2 wks at Vistana Resort, Spas section, and we just got our assessment fees.  This is rediculous, I thought that is what our maintenance each year was supposed to be for.  We have owned since 1985 so I figure I have more than paid for the remodeling of those units.  And who cares if your room has granite countertops, pewter fixtures, and fancy tile.  We aren't in the rooms that much and where they came up with $96,500 to redo each and every unit I will never know!  Anyone interested in a mutiny????????? haha  class action??????? something??????? hahaha


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## jarta (Sep 18, 2008)

DavidnRobin,   "It is not the BBS password you received - it is the other one."

I assume the "other one" is the Member password.  The email I posted gave the Member password as "TUG193**.  My BBS password is something completely different.  I entered the Member password.

It's not for lack of trying that I am listed as a "Guest" and urged to ante up and join TUG (with a wink).  I am a very, very thankful TUG Member.  It's a great web site.


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## Westin5Star (Sep 18, 2008)

DavidnRobin said:


> Sorry to hear about your bad review (Westin5*) - as we tend to think alike - I am glad we only got an EOY. Your #1 and #2 points would bother me also.
> I hope you passed on this info to WPORV management...



Don't worry David, as I said there are many very nice and good things about the property.  Kauai is an amazing island and I think the island has the nicest people in all of Hawaii.  The service staff was always very helpful and polite and it didn't feel like they were just faking it.  The interior and exterior colors are nice.  The views are better than I expected from most rooms and from the main parts of the resort itself.  The resort is pretty good; its just that I personally really don't like the negatives that I listed.  My preference would just most likely to pick somewhere else to travel to more regularly and then to try to exchange in when I want to visit WPORV.  I will look to hear your opinions when you visit next year.


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 19, 2008)

jarta said:


> DavidnRobin,   "It is not the BBS password you received - it is the other one."
> 
> I assume the "other one" is the Member password.  The email I posted gave the Member password as "TUG193**.  My BBS password is something completely different.  I entered the Member password.
> 
> It's not for lack of trying that I am listed as a "Guest" and urged to ante up and join TUG (with a wink).  I am a very, very thankful TUG Member.  It's a great web site.



Send a PM to TUGBrian...


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## DeniseM (Sep 19, 2008)

jarta said:


> DavidnRobin,   "It is not the BBS password you received - it is the other one."
> 
> I assume the "other one" is the Member password.  The email I posted gave the Member password as "TUG193**.  My BBS password is something completely different.  I entered the Member password.
> 
> It's not for lack of trying that I am listed as a "Guest" and urged to ante up and join TUG (with a wink).  I am a very, very thankful TUG Member.  It's a great web site.



OK - you are putting the wrong password in. It is a word that was sent to you via email, but unfortunately, I can't fix it for you, because I can't verify your membership, but owner, TUGBrian can.  Please email/pm him - he is very nice and helpful.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi all,

As you can see from my 'handle', I have been a long time loyal Starwood Fan, and customer. Personally, I have been Platinum with them for 10+ years consecutively... some with as many as 200 paid nights. I also run a business, and pay for many more nights for folks who work for me. 

Recently, I began to investigate getting to 5* through SVO. The amount required was 559,000 SVO options. With one day notice this past week, SVO has changed this to 649,000 SVO options to attain this status.

I wanted to solicit a response from the community here on this. 

For those long time customers, and for those potential customers who were in process of investing in lifetime Platinum, are you not concerned about SVO changing the rules without notice? Doesn't this worry you?

I am interested in hearing from SVO elite people, and those who were in process, and from just those who may have an opinion.


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## SDKath (Sep 25, 2008)

Well, I don't think anyone is happy about it.  It is a poor way to handle your most loyal customers (especially those who are 3* and 4* and have significant amounts of money invested in their TS "portfolio").  

A better way to have done this is to make an announcement that 5* will have increased SOs starting Oct 1st (or some other near term deadline).  Then everyone who was on the fence would write up their contracts and Starwood would have made a lot of money (during this horrible economic time).  Instead, they did it practically retroactively.

That said, I think everyone saw something like this coming.  The Platinum benefits have been diluted and people like Duke and David here on the boards have been saying for the last 6 months that Starwood is close to their arbitrary "cap" of 2000 PFL members.

What better way to enforce this cap than to raise the SOs to a crazy high level that requires 5-6 weeks of ownership and worse -- $7000 in MFs each year!  I think this assures Starwood that the PFL benefits (upgrades) won't be totally useless in the longrun.  But it sure can't help their sales in the short term.  Many were on the fence and all of a sudden, those numbers are unattainable and simply not worth the committment for a "maybe upgrade".

Then again, maybe this is what Starwood wants -- no more PFL folks coming from the TS world.  It's more profitable for them to have Platinum customers who stay 25 nights in their hotels and earn enough SPs to be PFL.

Katherine


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## DeniseM (Sep 25, 2008)

I have been a Starwood owner about 7 years now and Starwood has changed the program many times during that time.  That is one of the reasons I have no intention of becoming 5 Star Plat.  Well that, and I'm too Cheap!


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 25, 2008)

*Stuck in middle of upgrade to 649K!*

Hi all,

I tried to post here, but it may have been removed. I am in the middle of this change. I have purchased one 148,100 unit, and was about to close on a second. They give us 1 day notice to complete this? This is not just terrible, but speaks to what Starwood thinks of it's potential customers. They should have given 6 months or a year notice about this change for those caught in the middle of trying to accomplish this. 

I have sent a note to the Senior Sales Manager. 

It seems to me that no one at Starwood cares about you all here.. and that should give you all serious concern.

I believe we should send a letter to the VP. I would be happy to sign/work with who is interested here to do this.

SDCath?




SDKath said:


> Well, I don't think anyone is happy about it.  It is a poor way to handle your most loyal customers (especially those who are 3* and 4* and have significant amounts of money invested in their TS "portfolio").
> 
> A better way to have done this is to make an announcement that 5* will have increased SOs starting Oct 1st (or some other near term deadline).  Then everyone who was on the fence would write up their contracts and Starwood would have made a lot of money (during this horrible economic time).  Instead, they did it practically retroactively.
> 
> ...


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## DeniseM (Sep 25, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I tried to post here, but it may have been removed.



Your post is #52 above - since we already had a thread on this topic, I moved it here.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 25, 2008)

*Ok thanks*

Thanks .. I see it here!





DeniseM said:


> Your post is #52 above - since we already had a thread on this topic, I moved it here.


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## tomandrobin (Sep 25, 2008)

I feel really sorry for every one that got caught up in the middle of this dramatic, and poorly executed change in policy.

Hopefully, who ever you was working with at Starwood, can work something out for you.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 25, 2008)

*Starwood has told me to go pound dirt...*

.... 649K is firm. No exceptions.

People told me to be cautious about Starwood's change of policy in the past. I see they were correct. 

.... No one seeks to give a darn either...



tomandrobin said:


> I feel really sorry for every one that got caught up in the middle of this dramatic, and poorly executed change in policy.
> 
> Hopefully, who ever you was working with at Starwood, can work something out for you.


----------



## SDKath (Sep 25, 2008)

Although I was told that contracts that were in the middle of closing will be honored at the lower SO rate.  But if you are making a new purchase (and did not have a contract dated before last Friday), you are SOL.   

K


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## nodge (Sep 25, 2008)

StarwoodCanadaFan,

I'm sorry about your situation.  It sounds to me like you'll be changing your TUG username soon.   I wonder if "StarwoodCanadaVictim" is still available?

On the plus side, you'll be saving a ton of cash by not going through with any new SVO developer purchases.  Maybe you should send a thank-you to SVO instead.

SDKath, do you have better news in your case, or should I buy the large jar of green face paint so that I have enough for you too?

-nodge


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## SDKath (Sep 25, 2008)

nodge said:


> StarwoodCanadaFan,
> 
> I'm sorry about your situation.  It sounds to me like you'll be changing your TUG username soon.   I wonder if "StarwoodCanadaVictim" is still available?
> 
> ...



No good news.  Buy an extra large jar.  Send it Fed Ex overnight.  K


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## LisaRex (Sep 25, 2008)

Something is driving this decision and it's certainly not the desire to drive sales.  As other people have opined, if they wanted to do that, they would have set a 3 month deadline and watched people squirm to get their contracts in.  

And, of course, Starwood's communication to its OWNERS was zilch.  We hear about it via a member who was told by a salesman.  SVO can zip off one, two, three emails a week to us about "deals" but they are deafeningly silent when it comes to announcing major changes in their elite program.  

They are alienating the people who should be their biggest ambassadors.  I took some friends to WKORV this July.  They were very impressed with the property.  Would I EVER recommend that they buy with Starwood?  NO! The management knows nothing about maintaining customer loyalty or running a business. 

BTW, StarwoodCanadafan and Kath, this may help your cause.  PM me if you want a screen shot of it.

https://www.mystarcentral.com/elite/index.jsp


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## myip (Sep 25, 2008)

I hate to say it..SVN doesn't care... They change policy so quickly and that you can't react to it.  This is  not the first time.  Initially, they allow requal by buying any new developer timeshare and no price limit of $20K..  Next they change to like to like (annual to annual deed -> can't qualify annual with EOY. --> then they allow it.  --> There were never give any notice as when the policy change.


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## tomandrobin (Sep 25, 2008)

I am guessing that because of sites like TUG, getting to 5* has become too easy of late. How many PFL are there thru timeshare purchases now? I know that on flyer talk, those who earn the Platinum status thru timeshare purchases, do not get the same respect or treated equally. I'm sure that the SPG side doesn't like the timeshare side, booking stays and expecting upgrades on the hotel side. They are two different companies, under the same umbrella.


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## Ken555 (Sep 25, 2008)

tomandrobin said:


> I know that on flyer talk, those who earn the Platinum status thru timeshare purchases, do not get the same respect or treated equally.



Less respect from others at FlyerTalk or at SPG hotels? I suspect you mean that the FT natives don't respect those who obtain Plat via t/s purchases - after all, they don't really understand t/s over on FT...

I've had no distinction made at hotels with my Gold status - I doubt they even know or care how I got the Gold card. Of course, it's very easy to get Gold.


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## SDKath (Sep 25, 2008)

myip said:


> I hate to say it..SVN doesn't care... They change policy so quickly and that you can't react to it.  This is  not the first time.  Initially, they allow requal by buying any new developer timeshare and no price limit of $20K..  Next they change to like to like (annual to annual deed -> can't qualify annual with EOY. --> then they allow it.  --> There were never give any notice as when the policy change.



OK, I am laughing here because as I am on the phone with my nice Starwood sales rep, she tells me that an email had JUST come through with a "new business rule" that says you can't upgrade into a 3BR SBP.  It had come in at 11:25am today. OKAAAAAY.  So for those of you who had bought SBP in hopes of upgrading, here we are -- a new rule.

I think these new rules come through the email every day.  Don't hold your breath an any future planning. 

Kath


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## myip (Sep 25, 2008)

SDKath said:


> OK, I am laughing here because as I am on the phone with my nice Starwood sales rep, she tells me that an email had JUST come through with a "new business rule" that says you can't upgrade into a 3BR SBP.  It had come in at 11:25am today. OKAAAAAY.  So for those of you who had bought SBP in hopes of upgrading, here we are -- a new rule.
> 
> I think these new rules come through the email every day.  Don't hold your breath an any future planning.
> 
> Kath


--> changes day by day...
How much are they selling 3 bdrm SBP?  Last time, I spoken with the salesperson, it is around $38K.


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## clsmit (Sep 25, 2008)

SDKath said:


> OK, I am laughing here because as I am on the phone with my nice Starwood sales rep, she tells me that an email had JUST come through with a "new business rule" that says you can't upgrade into a 3BR SBP.  It had come in at 11:25am today. OKAAAAAY.  So for those of you who had bought SBP in hopes of upgrading, here we are -- a new rule.
> 
> I think these new rules come through the email every day.  Don't hold your breath an any future planning.
> 
> Kath



Nothing could upgrade into a 3BR at SBP? What about an EOY 1BR SPB that I bought from the developer? Not that I want to upgrade, I'm just asking for clarification....

And they won't give you 5* with what you have already purchased???!? Am I reading this right?!?!?!


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## VacationPro (Sep 25, 2008)

SDKath said:


> No good news.   K



I am so sorry to hear this.  You created such a nice write-up on this.  I hope they re-assess your situation.

I am truly amazed there was no warning period on this change.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 26, 2008)

*Call me 'nolongera..."*

Thanks Nodge for your reply. I am really upset about this. As I think I have mentioned, I am not a new Starwood client. I went back.. I have been Platinum for 12 years in a row. I was a Westin Golden Gavel member (the highest level at that time) back in 1995 and 1996. I have some 3000 paid nights I believe, plus another 5000 or 6000 nights which I pay for for staff who work for me. Just as some background. The note I just got back says: "they are strict with the business rules and you are not alone in having missed the deadline.  Please understand that there are Owners that have spent a lot of money purchasing directly from the developer all weeks to get to Elite 5." 

I was also told I 'missed the deadline'. What deadline? Does a time and date not need to be given to you before it is considered to be a deadline? We were not given a time and date, it changed with no notice. 

If you were me, would you not feel that they have completely discounted the hotel loyalty I have had? I had set up my ID for reasons that I now really really wonder. I am perhaps their most loyal.. and one of the largest Canadian customers. I know this. I was told I was in the top 5% of all guest in 2002, 2003. SVO doesn't seem to care about this. 

Wow. Something needs to be done about this...





nodge said:


> StarwoodCanadaFan,
> 
> I'm sorry about your situation.  It sounds to me like you'll be changing your TUG username soon.   I wonder if "StarwoodCanadaVictim" is still available?
> 
> ...


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 26, 2008)

*?*

Hi,

Not sure I understand how this might help? It has the new 649K listed?

Thanks,




LisaRex said:


> BTW, StarwoodCanadafan and Kath, this may help your cause.  PM me if you want a screen shot of it.
> 
> https://www.mystarcentral.com/elite/index.jsp


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## tlpnet (Sep 26, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not sure I understand how this might help? It has the new 649K listed?
> 
> Thanks,


 
It just changed. Wow that's record time for Starwood! What was it - only two weeks after the change, and the website's already updated?? :rofl:


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## Negma (Sep 26, 2008)

I checked last night so it was just changed. Amazing that they do not communicate. So much for customer service.


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## LisaRex (Sep 26, 2008)

Negma said:


> I checked last night so it was just changed. Amazing that they do not communicate. So much for customer service.



It was changed within an hour or so of my posting, so if we had any doubt that Starwood monitors the boards, there you have it!  But I'd already saved a .pdf screenshot of it (along with a timestamp) where it listed the former SOs right there in full living color. 

Everyone wave to Starwood!!


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## tomandrobin (Sep 26, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> Everyone wave to Starwood!!



 Hi everyone!


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 26, 2008)

*Monitoring of this board*

Hi again,

I am not concerned that these posts are being read. Everything posted here by me has been with the understanding that they would be read, and that they know who each of us is. I own and run a business. I pride myself in the highest integrity, honesty and loyalty to those who work with me. There are others in my industry who don't. Word of mouth is a tremendously powerful thing. Each potenial customer that you treat unfairly or otherwise are disloyal to comes back many fold. It is customer service A01. 

This is such a blatent disregard for you all here, and many others, it does really cause you to be taken back. 

Starwood (and I know you are reading this), you have to understand this type of thing will establish give you a permanent and well deserved black mark. It will hurt your future sales. This is beyond question. You should reverse this decision, and give the customers here a window to get to 559 before changing it. You changed without notice, change it back and give 3 months or so notice.



LisaRex said:


> It was changed within an hour or so of my posting, so if we had any doubt that Starwood monitors the boards, there you have it!  But I'd already saved a .pdf screenshot of it (along with a timestamp) where it listed the former SOs right there in full living color.
> 
> Everyone wave to Starwood!!


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## Joshadelic (Sep 26, 2008)

I don't think they're too concerned about their future sales.  I'm in the process of trying to do an upgrade and retro and there just aren't that many units available on the developer level.  Call them up and ask how many platinum units they have for any property?  Not many.  If you want to buy a silver season and pay full steam and on top of that pay the same amount of MF's that a person who owns platinum does, then yes, they have something to sell you.  The same person who would buy that is the same person who couldn't care less if the 5* level has changed.


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## pointsjunkie (Sep 26, 2008)

unfortunatley Tuggers are such a small % of owners, if you look at us we might be all of 25 people.starwood has ten's of thousands owners, we don't have much clout.


how many of you out there were actually on the fence  and IF you had 2 months notice would you have coughed up the bucks and become 5*?

it might be 1 or 2 people so in starwood's eyes they didn't even think it was worth it.


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## dss (Sep 26, 2008)

The arrogance and sheer ineptitude of how they managed these changes should amaze me, but given their recent track record, it doesn't. I cannot point to a single positive thing they have done in recent years to benefit existing owners. SVN is an organization that time and again shows it only cares about luring in "less educated" customers and doesn't care about truly addressing core issues, both good and bad, with their program, such as the deplorable customer service. 

I am a longtime SPG Plat (the hard way) and love the SPG program and the two SVN properties I own at, but I have absolutely decided to make my next purchase a Hyatt due to a variety of reasons, but centered around the disdain SVN has displayed towards their existing customers. They really need to create (or properly staff) a senior management position to serve as a customer evangelist and also assign someone similar to the FT "Lurker(s)" to participate on this board. The SPG Lurker role has been instrumental in both building goodwill with a core evangelical customer base as well as providing SPG with valuable direct marketplace feedback they so they can make better informed decisions about what their top customers really want. 

</rant off>


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## LisaRex (Sep 26, 2008)

"The note I just got back says: "they are strict with the business rules and you are not alone in having missed the deadline. Please understand that there are Owners that have spent a lot of money purchasing directly from the developer all weeks to get to Elite 5." 

And there are also Owners who have spent a lot of money purchasing resale weeks then subsequent developer weeks just to get to Elite 5.  In both scenarios, obtaining Elite 5 eventually required at least two developer purchases, which helped achieve what should be their top priority: selling timeshares. 

I wonder how many 3 and 4* owners are out there who bought all their weeks from the developer and who had 5* in mind?  Unless they find TUG, they won't even realize that the finish line has been moved back another mile until they go to buy what they think is the last piece of the puzzle.  Glad I'm not a Starwood salesman. It's difficult enough to move villas in this economy.  Now they've put another roadblock up for their own sales team.  

Starwood: Quit worrying about things you can't control, such as resales.  Because I have news for you: Had I not been able to get an OF property at the price I did on the resale market, I STILL wouldn't have bought from you, because your sales prices is completely and utterly out of whack with reality. $100k + $2k in MFs each year for the right to use a glorified hotel room for one week a year.  _Are you kidding me?_ 

WaMu just failed, AIG is on the brink of failing, the economy is in the dumpster, and you're worried about people achieving 5* status too cheaply? You should be doing everything you can to ENCOURAGE people to travel and buy timeshares, not alienating your existing customer base. 

ARGH!!!!

Do developers in sub-divisions try to control subsequent sales? NO.   If you really want to control resales, then you'll have to start exercising the ROFR, and gradually lowering developer prices back down from the stratosphere.


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## SDKath (Sep 26, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> It was changed within an hour or so of my posting, so if we had any doubt that Starwood monitors the boards, there you have it!  But I'd already saved a .pdf screenshot of it (along with a timestamp) where it listed the former SOs right there in full living color.
> 
> Everyone wave to Starwood!!



Yup, they changed the page about 2 minutes after Lisa posted it!  Essentially,* the ONLY written communication with Elite members *(their website) was still saying 559,000 SOs until about 4pm PST yesterday.  Sooooooooo...


Nice try.  I have that screenshot too, with the time and date stamp, and I plan to use it.   

K


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## James1975NY (Sep 26, 2008)

Timeshares - although deeded and sold by licesnsed sales agents (in most cases) should not be compared to residential or general real estate. ROFR is not exclusive to timeshare and is written into many HOA's and Condominiums. Unless the market is extremely hot, no developer is going to buy back. Timeshare will always be a buyers market.

Starwood does not and will not feed off of "less educated" customers. The proof is here on TUG. Granted, there are some that purchase on an emotional level but I would say that 80% of all timeshare owners purchased their first week on an emotions and there is nothing wrong with purchasing Starwood on an emotional level. There are a handful of developers that I can think of in the Orlando area that will misguide, misinform and then sell a customer something that is just pure garbage. You should feel lucky that you are an owner of a very strong program.

Going to buy Hyatt on the resale? Great....Hyatt is a great program too. Remember, try not to buy emotionally....sounds like you may be doing so out of spite. I have a lot of customers that by Hyatt for their Key West resorts because they are fantastic. Hyatt's club is a bit different than Starwood's so make sure your knowledge base is there before purchasing.


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## clsmit (Sep 26, 2008)

*Let us remember Starwood's Company Values*

We succeed only when we meet and
*exceed the expectations* of our customers,
owners and shareholders. We have a *passion for
excellence* and will deliver the highest
standards of *integrity* and *fairness*. We celebrate
the *diversity* of people, ideas and cultures.
We honor the *dignity* and *value of
individuals *working as a team. We improve the
*communities* in which we work.
We encourage *innovation*, accept
*accountability* and embrace *change.*
We seek knowledge and growth through *learning*.
We share a *sense of urgency, nimbleness *
and endeavor to have *fun* too.​
http://www.starwoodhotels.com/corporate/company_values.html The bolds are from Starwood, not me.

Hi Starwood!  With this one you're not meeting your company values. That's not good. I'm one of the people on this site with the ability and eventual desire to get to 5*, and had we known that the option requirements were changing we would have called to work on getting there sooner rather than later. Now I'm not so sure what we're going to do. We might buy a developer unit or 2 to get to 5*, or we might just stay on the resale market. But we're certainly thinking a bit harder about it.


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## tomandrobin (Sep 26, 2008)

James1975NY said:


> Going to buy Hyatt on the resale? Great....Hyatt is a great program too. Remember, try not to buy emotionally....sounds like you may be doing so out of spite. I have a lot of customers that by Hyatt for their Key West resorts because they are fantastic. Hyatt's club is a bit different than Starwood's so make sure your knowledge base is there before purchasing.



I will agree with this statement. All timeshare systems have there pluses and minuses. Does Hyatt have the resorts you want? One of the reasons we own Starwood is the resorts, not 5* elite. We love our HRA, WSJ, and WKV units. We are looking forward to traveling to WLR. We leave in two weeks for WKORV. 

Last time I checked, Hyatt was severly lacking compatible resorts, in comparable locations.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 26, 2008)

*What does this have to do with the posts on this thread?*

It is a question of running a program with integrity, and consideration for your client base. Feel lucky? How does that relate to this topic? We aren't questioning the quality of the product, just the management of the program.





James1975NY said:


> Timeshares - although deeded and sold by licesnsed sales agents (in most cases) should not be compared to residential or general real estate. ROFR is not exclusive to timeshare and is written into many HOA's and Condominiums. Unless the market is extremely hot, no developer is going to buy back. Timeshare will always be a buyers market.
> 
> Starwood does not and will not feed off of "less educated" customers. The proof is here on TUG. Granted, there are some that purchase on an emotional level but I would say that 80% of all timeshare owners purchased their first week on an emotions and there is nothing wrong with purchasing Starwood on an emotional level. There are a handful of developers that I can think of in the Orlando area that will misguide, misinform and then sell a customer something that is just pure garbage. You should feel lucky that you are an owner of a very strong program.
> 
> Going to buy Hyatt on the resale? Great....Hyatt is a great program too. Remember, try not to buy emotionally....sounds like you may be doing so out of spite. I have a lot of customers that by Hyatt for their Key West resorts because they are fantastic. Hyatt's club is a bit different than Starwood's so make sure your knowledge base is there before purchasing.


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 26, 2008)

James1975NY said:


> Starwood does not and will not feed off of "less educated" customers.



Maybe I do not correctly understand the context of this sentence, but...
This is exactly what they do.


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## LisaRex (Sep 26, 2008)

I mention ROFR only in the sense that Starwood seems to be overly concerned with trying to control the resale market. That is the only reason they convoluted the waters by inserting a poison pill into resales of their new resorts.  We call them Voluntary Resorts.

Instead of focusing on trying to inhibit resales, I think they should focus on doing things to promote purchasing from the developer.  The major thing they can do right away is to exercise RoFR more often so that resale prices don't get too far removed from the current developer price.  Right now the gap at WKORV is profound.  And it's incredibly difficult to justify spending 30 to 50 THOUSAND extra dollars for one lousy benefit, which is the ability to trade within SVN. 

It might be less difficult if they focused on sweetening their elite program so that people would be more tempted to buy from the developer.  They could offer incentives that are only given to developer purchased owners.  Here are some examples of programs they could introduce relatively cheaply:  

Throw in StarPoints each year as a thank you to owners who buy from the developer (e.g. 25k for single owners, 50k for double owners, etc.) 
Offer 25 or 30% off subsequent purchases. 
Offer reduced rates for folks wanting to add a day on the end of their stay.  Free breakfast one morning
Free Lava Flow each night.
Additional packets of laundry detergent upon request
The announcement of special promos prior to extending them to non-elite owners. 
Offer PFL memberships only to people who buy exclusively from the developer

For heaven's sake, instead of this constant barrage of negative news, they should do SOMETHING to make owners feel valued and special.  Increase the warm and fuzzies so people feel GOOD about owning with Starwood instead of feeling like a chump.  I think they'd be amazed how little things add up.


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## luv_maui (Sep 26, 2008)

Denise L said:


> Congrats to Jarta on making 5* with the retroing and EOY purchases!
> 
> I am still sad sometimes that with our $45,000 purchase so long ago, the 3-5* levels had never been "invented" by Starwood, and therefore we never knew that such a level of service was possible.  If we had not purchased then, we could have achieved 5* by buying two resales and two developer weeks for about the same price.
> 
> Oh well.  Since we don't have a crystal ball, who could have known?  Ya think there would be some perk for folks who bought early at full freight....



Some of the early purchasers at WKORV (we bought but later rescinded) also received an original art piece rendition of WKORV.  If we had only not rescinded then we would own this art piece - certainly not worth developer prices but just wanted to mention one of the early incentives (in addition to the star point incentive of course).


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## DeniseM (Sep 26, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> For heaven's sake, instead of this constant barrage of negative news, they should do SOMETHING to make owners feel valued and special.  Increase the warm and fuzzies so people feel GOOD about owning with Starwood instead of feeling like a chump.  I think they'd be amazed how little things add up.



But Lisa - what about the luggage tags?  Now that was special!  (And I didn't get one!)  

I think they should offer discounted airfare/car rental packages to make it a little easier to get to Hawaii and I like the other idea of discounted rental nights before or after your regular week.  The current owner discounted rate  for a studio is still about $300 a night!  

Oh - And I got a nice coffee table book about Maui when we bought at the WKORV - certainly worth the $20k difference between resale and developer pricing!


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## Denise L (Sep 26, 2008)

I couldn't find anywhere on my luggage tag to actually put my name. AND, the thing weighs a ton  . Given today's luggage restrictions, we can't afford to bring luggage, let alone heavy luggage tags  .

I didn't get a coffee table book  , and we bought over the phone, site unseen.  I did like the sushi dishes, and the wine holder, calendars and reef fish laminated cards that were owner gifts in the early years.  Two years of bags and hats/visors is enough. Is there a new gift yet?!

What I do know is that we bought exactly what we wanted (at the time) and absolutely love the beach at WKORV :whoopie:  for kid fun and awesome snorkeling.  I hope our hefty maintenance fees keep the property and villas looking great for years and years to come.


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## James1975NY (Sep 26, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> I mention ROFR only in the sense that Starwood seems to be overly concerned with trying to control the resale market. That is the only reason they convoluted the waters by inserting a poison pill into resales of their new resorts.  We call them Voluntary Resorts.
> 
> Instead of focusing on trying to inhibit resales, I think they should focus on doing things to promote purchasing from the developer.  The major thing they can do right away is to exercise RoFR more often so that resale prices don't get too far removed from the current developer price.  Right now the gap at WKORV is profound.  And it's incredibly difficult to justify spending 30 to 50 THOUSAND extra dollars for one lousy benefit, which is the ability to trade within SVN.
> 
> ...



I understand where you are coming from ~ I really do. Remember, nothing comes free and somewhere along the line, the owners are going to pay for it. Who paid for the incentive StarPoints when you purchased? You did.

I feel as though the negative news is a direct result of their decreased sales. SVO is down 29% in sales this year. I'm not sure this is a time to give away freebees. Enhancing the program - YES!!!!

Discounts on purchases - ABSOLUTELY!

Additional Packets of Laundry - Sure. Especially considering how travellers are reducing their luggage size to avoid travel costs - again, this tab will be picked up by the owners.

Discounted Rates - I understood that these already existed.

Announcements on Promos - Should be easy ;o)

I personally like the idea of being able to carry over StarOptions into future use years. Of course, these additional StarOptions would be restricted to a 90-day use period (similar to borrowing).

How about improving service? Since "superior" service is already being paid for and promised (Mission statement), why not ensure that it is given?

Lets put it this way, things are tight. There are ways to make owners feel like warm and fuzzy and well taken care of but I am not sure asking for freebies is the answer.


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## dss (Sep 26, 2008)

Sorry, but I think the core of the outrage isn't the change itself but the way the change was communicated (or lack thereof). While it's a dramatically unpopular move (to most, I bet some SPG Plats are happy about this actually), it is within their right to make that change. 
Not properly warning people or allowing a grace period, or even TELLING people about this change until after the fact is symbolic of the way SVN has botched it's relationship with it's customers. At a minimum it shows a company that is highly dysfunctional and to some such as myself, it illustrates an overall arrogance that permeates everything they do. Their marketing and communication to their customers has a glossy sheen on it that lacks any connection to the real issues and concerns we have raised time and time again. This "blue sky" approach might work for developer sales but it's an awful excuse for customer service to your existing clients (who I might add are also your best prospects in most businesses). 

James - As for your comment about choosing Hyatt for my next purchase, thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt, but I have spent years researching the system and as I said in my post, I am choosing them for a variety of factors, spite not being even on the radar screen (do you seriously think someone is going to spend over $20k out of spite???). I am purchasing largely because they have two resorts within driving distance of the Bay Area (Tahoe and Carmel).  Hyatt's outstanding customer service certainly makes the decision easier to justify for me. Nothing would make me happier than to be able to continue to invest with SVN but their abysmal customer service and communication practices is one of many reasons they won't be getting any more of my business (and as I said, I am a longstanding SPG Plat so I continue to patronize their hotels almost weekly).


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## James1975NY (Sep 26, 2008)

dss said:


> Sorry, but I think the core of the outrage isn't the change itself but the way the change was communicated (or lack thereof). While it's a dramatically unpopular move (to most, I bet some SPG Plats are happy about this actually), it is within their right to make that change.
> Not properly warning people or allowing a grace period, or even TELLING people about this change until after the fact is symbolic of the way SVN has botched it's relationship with it's customers. At a minimum it shows a company that is highly dysfunctional and to some such as myself, it illustrates an overall arrogance that permeates everything they do. Their marketing and communication to their customers has a glossy sheen on it that lacks any connection to the real issues and concerns we have raised time and time again. This "blue sky" approach might work for developer sales but it's an awful excuse for customer service to your existing clients (who I might add are also your best prospects in most businesses).
> 
> James - As for your comment about choosing Hyatt for my next purchase, thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt, but I have spent years researching the system and as I said in my post, I am choosing them for a variety of factors, spite not being even on the radar screen (do you seriously think someone is going to spend over $20k out of spite???). I am purchasing largely because they have two resorts within driving distance of the Bay Area (Tahoe and Carmel).  Hyatt's outstanding customer service certainly makes the decision easier to justify for me. Nothing would make me happier than to be able to continue to invest with SVN but their abysmal customer service and communication practices is one of many reasons they won't be getting any more of my business (and as I said, I am a longstanding SPG Plat so I continue to patronize their hotels almost weekly).




So you have see first hand how the program works and the flexibility or ease of use? No need to get upset....you would be surprised what people would do out of spite.

Word of advice for you when buying Hyatt.....buy at a location that you would like to go and make sure the week that you buy is one that you would use.

Enjoy!


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## Cathyb (Sep 27, 2008)

Without further adooooo, I stand my earlier grounds that SW is only interested in the bottom profit line, not its owners.  Sorry.....


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## Cathyb (Sep 27, 2008)

westin5star"  think about it -- do they really care?  they have their money from you........


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## SDKath (Sep 27, 2008)

I agree with dss.  Remember, the change actually *WAS NOT *communicated.  As of yesterday, almost a week later, the only source of news and info for Elite members, the Elite website, still said it only takes 559,000 SOs to be 5*.

So unless you read TUG religiously (which 95% of owners don't I bet) or you HAPPEN to be calling Elite services to ask what the 5* requirement is, there is NO WAY you would have known!  I happen to speak to elite services 3x this week to make reservations for 2009 and not once did I hear ANYTHING said about this key change in the rules.  No message on the phone (you know, like those irritating Am Ex ads you listen to while on hold) and no rep telling me anything about it.

That is total BS.  No offense but you really just CAN'T do that!

Katherine


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## oneohana (Sep 27, 2008)

Starwood can and will make any changes they want. I know it is not fair, but that's just the way they run their business. 

All my eggs are in the Starwood basket. I'm just making the best omlettes I can. Hopefully they won't get burnt.


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## SDKath (Sep 27, 2008)

oneohana said:


> Starwood can and will make any changes they want. I know it is not fair, but that's just the way they run their business.
> 
> All my eggs are in the Starwood basket. I'm just making the best omlettes I can. Hopefully they won't get burnt.



Making a change without any notification and displaying the incorrect, old info on their only website is actually considered *FALSE ADVERTISING.*  It can be misconstrued as melicious sales tactic.  (You know, to lead people into thinking they will be 5* and have them sign the contarct only to find out that they "forgot" to mention that the rules changed a day or two ago and "forgot" conveniently to update their website).

There are lots of laws against that to protect consumers....

K


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## Ken555 (Sep 27, 2008)

James1975NY said:


> ROFR is not exclusive to timeshare and is written into many HOA's and Condominiums.



While ROFR's may be used in other situations and for other real property, it is most commonly used in timeshares, to the best of my knowledge. For all the properties I've almost bought, and have bought, I've never run across a ROFR other than in timeshare. Perhaps its use in California is more restrictive than other States (I don't know - but I've not seen it in Florida either, on the properties I almost bought in the last 10 years). 

It would be nice to see examples that ROFR is a common event included in many real estate transactions. Do you have any websites of condos or HOA's which show their ROFR policy? (Anyone else run into this issue?) If so, please share them here. If not, then please qualify your remarks. I think it's natural for us to be cautious of any comments on a public forum without personal knowledge of the individual behind the statement or their agenda.

FWIW, I'm very curious to see what other HOAs do in this area. I'd like to know how an HOA is formed that has the resources to buy real estate from its members in order to sell it for a profit (presumably). This really sounds more like a builder / developer policy, and is somewhat contrary to what the HOA exists to do.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 27, 2008)

*False Advertising.. and poor customer relations..*

Hi Cathy,

The folks here who don't seem to be upset about this likely are already 5*, and don't care.. in fact, it isnt in their best interest to have others join, because it dilutes the upgrades I guess.

The issue remains the no notice and as Kath points out, the false advertising after the fact. 

Anyone here know a lawyer? We should contact someone to ask the question. At very worst, SVO acted in very poor faith. 

For SVO sales folks who I know are reading this, this isn't personal. We know the decision for this has come down from someone on high. Perhaps it was 'sold' to you as a way for you to get more sales out of those who are not in 5* but close.. and perhaps you have also been told these are the people who have money and are willing to spend it despite the toilet Wall street has put us all in. Either way, it stinks.. and I think the message needs to go up to your management that we don't think it is right or fair. 

Perhaps we should all look at other programs instead. For the record, I have investigated lifetime Plat in Marriott, which you may be surprised to know is available, and at much less then what Starwood now offers. Hyatt seems to interest a purchaser here.

Perhaps it is time to switch over. SVO obviously doesn't give a crap about any of you here. Those who are existing Plat 5*, what they have done here should be a really worry to you as well. While it doesn't affect you this time, the fact that they would do it this way should send shivers up your collective spines. If you are not willing to support a revolt on this, when they come down on you next time in a year or so, .. well, you get the picture. 



SDKath said:


> Making a change without any notification and displaying the incorrect, old info on their only website is actually considered *FALSE ADVERTISING.*  It can be misconstrued as melicious sales tactic.  (You know, to lead people into thinking they will be 5* and have them sign the contarct only to find out that they "forgot" to mention that the rules changed a day or two ago and "forgot" conveniently to update their website).
> 
> There are lots of laws against that to protect consumers....
> 
> K


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## oneohana (Sep 27, 2008)

Hi Katherine,

I'm saying that this is right. It is just the way that *wood treats their current owners. I have many screen shots also if I have to battle *wood.

I was in a hurry to get to 5* because all the changes that were occuring last year in the requal process. There was talk back then of changes in the 5* elite program. I'm just waiting for the next teir above 5* to take place  .


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 27, 2008)

*Your eggs may not be burnt, but they sure smell bad..*

If they make this type of change unilaterally, you should support the cause here. If you don't, you can't expect others to come back and support you when it happens again a year from now, and it does affect you..



oneohana said:


> Starwood can and will make any changes they want. I know it is not fair, but that's just the way they run their business.
> 
> All my eggs are in the Starwood basket. I'm just making the best omlettes I can. Hopefully they won't get burnt.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 27, 2008)

*Who is the top 'guy' at SVO?*

Does anyone know?

I am going to call him. Kath? Want to do a conference call with me?





oneohana said:


> Hi Katherine,
> 
> I'm saying that this is right. It is just the way that *wood treats their current owners. I have many screen shots also if I have to battle *wood.
> 
> I was in a hurry to get to 5* because all the changes that were occuring last year in the requal process. There was talk back then of changes in the 5* elite program. I'm just waiting for the next teir above 5* to take place  .


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## oneohana (Sep 27, 2008)

StarwoodCanadaFan,

I do support the cause. And so do all the other 5* elites. This one is just not my battle. I would've been furious too if this happened to me. My salesperson knew that I was trying to get to 5* at the time.

I'm just saying that in my past experiences, *wood has done what they want. That is why I was in a hurry to get to 5*. I just didn't trust them changing the rules. I was so close to 5* it didn't make sense not to get there. I was in constant contact with my corperate salesperson to make sure I was getting everything that was agreed upon. 

As far as salespeople are concerned, do you know if they had any warning? I have received notices regarding changes in their policies before they did. As you know, *wood is terrible in communications.

I'm not concerned about competing with other 5* elite members or any other members for that matter. I'm content at just being on vacation.


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## pointsjunkie (Sep 27, 2008)

i agree with all of you , and i too would be livid.

i asked a question a few threads ago and no one answered it.

how many of you if you had 2 month notice would have spent the money to become 5*?

with the finances in the US right now would you really be spending thousands of dollars on timeshare just to get to 5*?

i don't think it would be more than 1 or 2 of you, if any.


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## myip (Sep 27, 2008)

SDKath said:


> That is total BS.  No offense but you really just CAN'T do that!
> 
> Katherine


SVN did and you will talking to a wall.  I filed BBB complaints previously and they didn't care.  They came back with basically "Tough"  they have the right to change and it is not in the contract...   Unless, it states in the contract, it is lost cause.   Email evidence is not acceptable.  YOu will need to get a lawyer.


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## rocky (Sep 28, 2008)

The whole SVN exchanging network, starpoint values, staroption amounts, the elite program parameters can be changed at any time for any reason, including being cancelled all together.  Read the paperwork......  there was no promise made and no false advertising occured.  

The whole 5*, 4*, 3* elite program thing always was, and is a total sham and it's tough medicine to take for owners who bought based on promises of things that frankly were never designed to be durable lasting value-added programs.

Starwood does this time and time again.  The units that get smaller and smaller, the full sized ovens that become microwaves, the OF units that are really barely OV, the cheap finishes noted throughout the WPORV development, oh... and my favorite one, the starpoint devaluation.  Read over the last 5 years of posts, and notice the regular posters dramatic change in tone towards the negative.

Fooled me once, shame on you, fooled me twice, shame on me.  The writing on the wall has been there a while for these programs.  Lesson learned ok!  Don't waste time and money on this program going forward.


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## rocky (Sep 28, 2008)

duplicate posting. deleted.


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## tomandrobin (Sep 28, 2008)

Ken555 said:


> While ROFR's may be used in other situations and for other real property, it is most commonly used in timeshares, to the best of my knowledge. For all the properties I've almost bought, and have bought, I've never run across a ROFR other than in timeshare. Perhaps its use in California is more restrictive than other States (I don't know - but I've not seen it in Florida either, on the properties I almost bought in the last 10 years).
> 
> It would be nice to see examples that ROFR is a common event included in many real estate transactions. Do you have any websites of condos or HOA's which show their ROFR policy? (Anyone else run into this issue?) If so, please share them here. If not, then please qualify your remarks. I think it's natural for us to be cautious of any comments on a public forum without personal knowledge of the individual behind the statement or their agenda.
> 
> FWIW, I'm very curious to see what other HOAs do in this area. I'd like to know how an HOA is formed that has the resources to buy real estate from its members in order to sell it for a profit (presumably). This really sounds more like a builder / developer policy, and is somewhat contrary to what the HOA exists to do.



We own property in a gated community in South Carolina, near Myrtle Beach, that has an active ROFR in effect. The owner/developer is active in using his ROFR of all of the undeveloped lots.


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## Ken555 (Sep 28, 2008)

tomandrobin said:


> We own property in a gated community in South Carolina, near Myrtle Beach, that has an active ROFR in effect. The owner/developer is active in using his ROFR of all of the undeveloped lots.



Thank you T&R. That's exactly the type of ROFR we're all familiar with - that the developer is doing it. The HOA is *NOT*.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 28, 2008)

*Thanks for the response oneohana..*

.. and for the info.

At this point, I am not going to rush to buy anything from Starwood. I have lost faith. My notes to mgmt there have come back with a 'tough luck' tone to them, including messages to the effect that I am less important then those who have purchased new, basically discounting my history as a Platinum guest for 12 or so years running.

It is good to know before you get into the marriage that your bride is going to cheat on you. At least I found out before, not after. I have told them specifically that there is a groundswell of discontent, and this type of thing will give them a black eye in the long run, and hurt their sales. I really don't think they care though. No one up the chain has even said they would try to get an exception for me. Just they can't approve.

Remarkable. Incredible. These are words which describe what they have done here. 



oneohana said:


> StarwoodCanadaFan,
> 
> I do support the cause. And so do all the other 5* elites. This one is just not my battle. I would've been furious too if this happened to me. My salesperson knew that I was trying to get to 5* at the time.
> 
> ...


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 28, 2008)

*I would have...*

.. for sure.



pointsjunkie said:


> i agree with all of you , and i too would be livid.
> 
> i asked a question a few threads ago and no one answered it.
> 
> ...


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## oneohana (Sep 28, 2008)

rocky said:


> The whole SVN exchanging network, starpoint values, staroption amounts, the elite program parameters can be changed at any time for any reason, including being cancelled all together.  Read the paperwork......  there was no promise made and no false advertising occured.
> 
> The whole 5*, 4*, 3* elite program thing always was, and is a total sham and it's tough medicine to take for owners who bought based on promises of things that frankly were never designed to be durable lasting value-added programs.
> 
> ...



StarwoodCanadaFan,

Rocky is 100% correct.

If you look at previous posts, you can see what battles we have fought and lost(all).

Sorry that they fooled you. But don't feel alone. They have gotten most of us here.


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## SDKath (Sep 29, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan,

I will keep you posted on the progress my complaint makes.  I am told it is in their "legal" department as we speak.  I am not going to drop this, however, and have already contacted a lawyer.  It might be futile but they deserve to know that illegal sales tactics are just that -- illegal.  At the least, they should have better communication within the organization.  I mean COME ON, their website is outdated and wrong for a WEEK after the largest change in Platinum history is made???????  Not until a fellow TUGger points out the error does someone change the site???  That's not a way to run a multi-million dollar company.   

Katherine


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 29, 2008)

*Thanks SDKath*

I have wondered though about chasing my tail here on this. Rather then that, I think we should honestly, and without bias or stating any untruths, let people know what has happened here. I have no doubt that language in their program allow them to do this. However, I have told them clearly that I feel that what they have done lacks integrity. Regardless of your personal outcome, I feel strongly in not supporting them should they not reverse it, which is what I have urged them to do. 

I have also spoken to a couple of senior resale agents in the community. What they just told me suprised me ... a lot. Their perspective is that SVO has a very bad reputation in the industry, just for this very reason. They are known as a company who is mismanaged at the top end, and don't care about their existing clients. As pointed out on this thread, they make changes to the program continuously, and don't really care about what you think. Contrast that to Hilton, who have a terrific reputation in their VO. They have cleaned up the mess on the resale market, established a RFR for all their units, so you don't see things like Vistana on the market selling for $100. They seem to be a well managed company. I personally own 2 weeks, but had not considered persuing Diamond status lifetime there because of my history with Starwood. It boggles my mind how I have been treated personally here. The best I can do is to communicate my dissatisfaction to senior SVO people, and the hotel people. I am not without relationships on the hotel side, and beyond saying SVO has done me wrong, and keeping this info current here, as indicated, they really don't care. 



SDKath said:


> StarwoodCanadafan,
> 
> I will keep you posted on the progress my complaint makes.  I am told it is in their "legal" department as we speak.  I am not going to drop this, however, and have already contacted a lawyer.  It might be futile but they deserve to know that illegal sales tactics are just that -- illegal.  At the least, they should have better communication within the organization.  I mean COME ON, their website is outdated and wrong for a WEEK after the largest change in Platinum history is made???????  Not until a fellow TUGger points out the error does someone change the site???  That's not a way to run a multi-million dollar company.
> 
> Katherine


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 29, 2008)

*Oneohana..*

Thanks for letting me know. Naive I am. Taken for a fool I was. I nearly purchased 7 Florida weeks to get to Plat in May. That would have been a complete fatal mistake. That was before someone pointed out to me that what I was spending $100K plus for could be purchased through the open market for $700... if I worked at it. At worst, multiples of this. I had always understood that resales of reputable time share companies held their resale value... at about 60% or at least 50% of the new price. That doesn't apply to a number of Starwood Florida units it seems. 

I really quite like the sales lady I have been working with at SVO. (Yes, I know you are reading this ). I really don't think a lot of this is in her control though. 



oneohana said:


> StarwoodCanadaFan,
> 
> Rocky is 100% correct.
> 
> ...


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 29, 2008)

*Sorry SDKath.. I thought you had already got to 5*?*

I gather because some of the units you were working through had not closed?

They didn't grandfather you right away? !!!

Hmm...



SDKath said:


> StarwoodCanadafan,
> 
> I will keep you posted on the progress my complaint makes.  I am told it is in their "legal" department as we speak.  I am not going to drop this, however, and have already contacted a lawyer.  It might be futile but they deserve to know that illegal sales tactics are just that -- illegal.  At the least, they should have better communication within the organization.  I mean COME ON, their website is outdated and wrong for a WEEK after the largest change in Platinum history is made???????  Not until a fellow TUGger points out the error does someone change the site???  That's not a way to run a multi-million dollar company.
> 
> Katherine


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## sml2181 (Sep 29, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> I have wondered though about chasing my tail here on this. Rather then that, I think we should honestly, and without bias or stating any untruths, let people know what has happened here. I have no doubt that language in their program allow them to do this. However, I have told them clearly that I feel that what they have done lacks integrity. Regardless of your personal outcome, I feel strongly in not supporting them should they not reverse it, which is what I have urged them to do.
> 
> I have also spoken to a couple of senior resale agents in the community. What they just told me suprised me ... a lot. Their perspective is that SVO has a very bad reputation in the industry, just for this very reason. They are known as a company who is mismanaged at the top end, and don't care about their existing clients. As pointed out on this thread, they make changes to the program continuously, and don't really care about what you think. Contrast that to Hilton, who have a terrific reputation in their VO. They have cleaned up the mess on the resale market, established a RFR for all their units, so you don't see things like Vistana on the market selling for $100. They seem to be a well managed company. I personally own 2 weeks, but had not considered persuing Diamond status lifetime there because of my history with Starwood. It boggles my mind how I have been treated personally here. The best I can do is to communicate my dissatisfaction to senior SVO people, and the hotel people. I am not without relationships on the hotel side, and beyond saying SVO has done me wrong, and keeping this info current here, as indicated, they really don't care.



I am both Starwood 5* and Hilton Premier Elite which comes with Diamond HH for life. Before I purchased, Starwood was sort of on top of our list because we stay in their hotels at many specific locations. However at some other places we prefer Hilton/Conrad/Waldorf hotels (we bought into the hotel programs because of the hotels mainly - we always paid for the rooms prior to timeshares so to us this is a great deal.)

We still like the idea that we own "something" rather than just throwing money down the drain. I still enjoy PFL (we had been Platinum and Diamond for years before we purchased) and we do still enjoy Starwood properties but without a doubt, Hilton is now on top of our list. We never expected that to happen! 

Never had any problems with their system - but you have to know how to work it. And although they have less timeshare resorts, the easyness and flexibility of the system is really great as well as their customer service. At least the Elite service knows what to do and they are very knowledgable and flexible - at least that has been my experience. Now - since I bought for hotel points mainly to use at hotels my view may be VERY different than that of most others here. But I do think that Hilton is a somewhat underestimated program. 

I have been working for a week now to get 2 of my 08 Lagunamar weeks converted to SPG points. We were supposed to visit but plans changed. Points from 1 week are in my account now, but the points from the 2nd week are ....? Nobody knows where they went. Nobody seems to know what to do.
With Hilton, I simply do this conversion online and the HH points appear in the right account right away.

This year, I have had to speak to Platinum Concierge for quite some time to get a few nights on points - according to them, the hotel I wanted had blackout dates. There was a festivity going on in that city but the Starwood property did still show inventory online. Just could not do it on points and since the best available rate was 600 Euro, I did take the time to argue and in the end I got it - but I was told it was an exception and it did take a whole morning to complete the reservation. For another stay when the same problem occured I decided I didn't want to spend all that time so I called HHonors - the Hilton hotel in that city was actually sold out but as a Diamond I could still reserve 2 rooms, on points. No problem at all and took less than a minute. Now THAT's a true "without blackout dates" in my book.

I won't even start about the depositing of my resale event week and the number of SPG points which was deducted from my account for a hotel stay in 2 suites-which I never requested - I simply wanted 2 rooms on cash and points. 2 Suites of 24K points, for a stay of 14 nights. Points are still not back in my account and the rooms I did request for c/p are not available anymore. Booked them for cash now with owners discount. What should have been a simple online reservation in the first place (could not do it online but could see the c/p availability so I called), turned out to be an ongoing process of over a week. 

Lately I have found myself talking to both SVO/SPG for hours per week, sometimes 2 hours per day - to get things the way I wanted, or I should say to get things the way they should be (at least I should be entitled to receive the SPG points for my Lagunamar week.) And although all people I spoke to are very nice and they are all really trying to be very helpful, they don't know what to do as soon as it gets a little more complicated (I cannot even blame them as there are so many rules and inconsistencies) and I feel I need another 24 hours a day when handling Starwood.
That's really not for me. 

So, although I do not regret the Starwood purchases, I doubt I would feel the need to get more points with them. I recently purchased another resale week and planned to have it requalified with a Riverfront week, but now I seriously doubt we will do the requalification. 

If I would have been close to 5* now, I most certainly would have sent a letter to Mr. Matthew E. Avril, president of Starwood Vacation Ownership to let him know that this lack of communication indeed doesn't show any integrity at all. (Re-new qualifications to become 5*.) However, I would not expect anything to happen at all, but I would have sent that letter to get it off my chest anyway.
I would still probably plunk down the money to actually get it, but only because I use the hotels MUCH more than the timeshare resorts and I do still appreciate the platinum benefits. And only if I would be very close to the 5*. If I was 3* now or not so close to 5*, I don't think I would purchase more points but I would purchase resale weeks I could use and maybe even simply purchase resale weeks which I could rent out easily - to still be able to stay in the hotels and achieve Platinum status. 

We feel we simply "prepaid" hotel stays, which gives us the idea that we are not just throwing away money for these stays for which we would otherwise pay in cash. And that's why we bought in the first place - so we're still happy. And, we also only purchased weeks we would actually use if everything else would fall apart, which gives us a good feeling too.

If it is only that platinum card you want - there are cheaper ways to get it, if you stay in the hotels. (But of course the same is true for Diamond HH.)


If we were to buy more points, Hilton now would be our first choice.
(As far as I know, you can still purchase HGVC Flamingo without rofr - you would have to look at the HGVC board for the information.)


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 29, 2008)

*What a great post, and info!*

Hi,

I own 2 Hilton 7,000 pt weeks in addition to my Starwood Maui week (resale). I have to agree 100% that the Hilton program is much much easier to use. I love the flexibility it gives you. I was down the road to looking into Diamond with them, but really wanted to stick with Starwood due to my long long term Plat status with them.. and really, I had made a strong investment with them, and thought we had a relationship because of this. I could not be more wrong it seems.

The SVO people have brushed me aside like my 12+ years mean nothing to them. Bitter? I am getting there, that's for sure. Not there yet... but it surprises the heck out of me that they haven't even bothered to try to make this right.

One question.. does the Diamond at Hilton get you upgraded when you check in? How often? Is it a worthwhile program to join? I see ownership gives you just 10 years Diamond now.. were you aware of that?



sml2181 said:


> I am both Starwood 5* and Hilton Premier Elite which comes with Diamond HH for life. Before I purchased, Starwood was sort of on top of our list because we stay in their hotels at many specific locations. However at some other places we prefer Hilton/Conrad/Waldorf hotels (we bought into the hotel programs because of the hotels mainly - we always paid for the rooms prior to timeshares so to us this is a great deal.)
> 
> We still like the idea that we own "something" rather than just throwing money down the drain. I still enjoy PFL (we had been Platinum and Diamond for years before we purchased) and we do still enjoy Starwood properties but without a doubt, Hilton is now on top of our list. We never expected that to happen!
> 
> ...


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## sml2181 (Sep 29, 2008)

They changed the Diamond for 10 years to Diamond for life. I received a letter in which this was stated, after they had changed the HGVC/HH conversion.

Regarding upgrades, that is difficult to answer as it really depends on where when and how long. 

What they always do is give you lounge access or an executive room with lounge access or breakfast coupons. Never have to ask for that - it's just being done.

I have had upgrades to suites in France, Italy, Malta, Whistler, Amsterdam, NYC, LA, and many other hotels in Europe and Asia and Africa. I also got these upgrades with Starwood though. The difference is that Starwood has it in their Platinum description and Hilton does not. But with Starwood, all platinums are "fighting" because they all want to have that suite and I feel it is a little different with Hilton. 
In Asia, there are not as many Platinum/Diamond members and the hotels we visit there have always been very generous - both Starwood and Hilton. In the US, where we actually don't use our points that much, we do get upgrades there as well but somehow we don't really expect it there. In Europe, I get the feeling we are upgraded as soon as we are not "first timers" to the hotel anymore. 

We also almost always reserve 2 or 3 rooms and that seems to help with upgrades too. We never ask for upgrades - guess I am too shy.. 

But to us, the ability to always be able to get a room, is more important than the upgrades. My husband has to travel to Munich very often and sometimes he has to be there last minute while their Beerfest is going on - and all rooms in the city are sold out. Hilton is closest to where he has to be so he always gets a room there - without upgrades because the hotel is really sold out then. However, instead he always gets a nice bottle of something and a box of chocolates for me (even when I am not there) - so still not bad. And of course still lounge access or breakfast. Same story for the Conrad Brussels, where we are always upgraded to one of the nicest suites - unless the hotel is really sold out and then we are happy to receive bubbles and breakfast again. (Breakfast here cost 50 Euro per person and we receive it for the 6 of us so we are happy with that.)

So - in the end I think I got upgrades at Hiltons just as much as with Starwood. Trick is to reserve rooms at the hotel with the most suites / or simply reserve the most expensive hotel you can find. Has worked well for us.


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## Troopers (Sep 29, 2008)

Several thoughts here:

1.  I'm curious if it's us Tuggers that led to the raising of qualifications (not the poor execution of it).  Tuggers have found easier (cheaper) ways or loopholes to get to 5* than what was orginally anticipated by Starwood.  See no 2.

2.  I think Starwood got snakebit.  In efforts to increase sales and provide owners with a benefit, Starwood allows retro/requals.  I'm not sure that the other TS programs provides a retro/requal process to allow resale purchases to be treated as a developer purchase.  This benefit ended up burning them.  See no 1.

3.  Another interesting note is that I've always read here that elite status isn't very valuable.  I've also read and concur that it's not financially prudent to pursue elite status solely on its benefits.  I understand the primary benefit for 5* elite was SPG PFL which nodge is determining may not be worth ~$1k annually (for him).  The benefits do not seem to cost Starwood huge dollars so why raise the requirement...to drive sales?

Don't get me wrong here, I'm NOT justifying what Starwood has or has not done.  I'm just curious...there's always two sides to every story.

If I was in some of your shoes, I be pissed off too!


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## Cathyb (Sep 30, 2008)

rchen:  good point!


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## dss (Sep 30, 2008)

rchen makes some excellent points and they go to the heart of the problem, SVN just isn't a very well thought out of an product or organization. It's a bunch of different properties and inconsistent rules cobbled together under a well regarded hotel brand that they were lucky to have access to. That being said, I still want to say that the change itself isn't what is causing the uproar but the absolutely tragic lack of meaningful communication coming out of Orlando is the root issue. If SVN were smart, they would hire one of our more active Tuggers as a consultant to vet their programs and potential changes thoroughly so they can at last be thoughtful in how they conduct their business. The only, and I mean only conclusion, I can come up with based on their actions, is that they really don't care, even a little, about their existing customers.


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## tomandrobin (Sep 30, 2008)

FYI - I can be bought!


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## Troopers (Sep 30, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> ..At this point, I am not going to rush to buy anything from Starwood. I have lost faith. My notes to mgmt there have come back with a 'tough luck' tone to them, including messages to the effect that I am less important then those who have purchased new, basically discounting my history as a Platinum guest for 12 or so years running.



I hope you haven't lost faith in the hotel side of Starwood.  The hotels and timeshares are really two different companies with a common owner.


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## tomandrobin (Sep 30, 2008)

R Chen said:


> I hope you haven't lost faith in the hotel side of Starwood.  The hotels and timeshares are really two different companies with a common owner.



This is very true. The SPG platinum is a reward for buying enough timeshares to become 5* elite. When you call SPG, you are dealing with an entirely different company, different set of rules, differrent kind of attitudes. The SPG wants to reward its best and most loyal customers. The SVO side, you get more of the "Thank you for your purchase.....next!" kind of treatment. 

Not all of the SVO side is like that, but enough of it exists. I will say that in our experience as a Starwood owner, we have dealt with a lot of terrific SVO employees/managers/sales who have treated us very, very well.


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## Troopers (Sep 30, 2008)

dss said:


> The only, and I mean only conclusion, I can come up with based on their actions, is that they really don't care, even a little, about their existing customers.



I'm not so sure about this.  My guess is that Starwood perfomed in a manner that they believed to be the most appropriate for all their customers.  I doubt Starwood became a multi-million company on smoke and mirrors.   Remember, the 30 or 40 "regulars" here on TUG are very educated and informed about Starwood but we only represent less than 0.10% of the customer base.  99.9% of the ex customers are probably unaffected by this change and it may be in their best interest to NOT announce this change.  

I agree the lack of advance notice and how it was rolled out was very poor but that doesn't mean they do not care about their ex customers.


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## SDKath (Sep 30, 2008)

R Chen said:


> I agree the lack of advance notice and how it was rolled out was very poor but that doesn't mean they do not care about their ex customers.



Sure it does.  I need 1 example of how this shows that they care about the 99.9% of the owners who are not on TUG.  

Actually, 1 would love to see 1 single example of something Starwood has done in the last 2-3 years that has actually *benefited *their multi-week owners.  I challenge you to come up with just 1 good decision or policy change that has been to our benefit, not theirs...

Katherine


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## tomandrobin (Sep 30, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Sure it does.  I need 1 example of how this shows that they care about the 99.9% of the owners who are not on TUG.
> 
> Actually, 1 would love to see 1 single example of something Starwood has done in the last 2-3 years that has actually *benefited *their multi-week owners.  I challenge you to come up with just 1 good decision or policy change that has been to our benefit, not theirs...
> 
> Katherine



Lowering the retro/requalifications for resale weeks. 

But, I think that is what lead to this recent change.


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## sml2181 (Sep 30, 2008)

Well, I did appreciate the extra 10% SPG points after conversion...


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## Troopers (Sep 30, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Sure it does.  I need 1 example of how this shows that they care about the 99.9% of the owners who are not on TUG.
> 
> Actually, 1 would love to see 1 single example of something Starwood has done in the last 2-3 years that has actually *benefited *their multi-week owners.  I challenge you to come up with just 1 good decision or policy change that has been to our benefit, not theirs...
> 
> Katherine



I’m relatively new to Starwood but I do believe the elite program was introduced about 3 years ago benefiting multi-week owners.

Unfortunately, the economy has been in the toilet and spiraling out of control and many major companies are reducing benefits (or increasing requirements for the same benefits).  I’m not sitting in their board room so I don’t know all the particulars.  Perhaps Starwood needed to do this just to keep the “doors open”.  Or perhaps they are following suit with the other TS programs because they have realized this benefit did not equate to measurable increase sales.  Also keep in mind that their primary obligation is to their shareholders. 

Again, I’m not trying to justify Starwood’s poor execution nor discount anyone’s opinion here.  People sometimes start to believe in their own BS.


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## tlpnet (Sep 30, 2008)

I agree with most everything that has been said here. I only recently got to 5* (much thanks to Katherine). I would have been livid had I been in the middle of my process, and WITHOUT NOTICE the rules changed.

Unfortunately over time rules do change for various reasons and with the economy tightening all over, this change isn't a great shocker. One thing that no one has really pointed out here is that SVO is a mere baby in the TS business. They are clearly learning as they go, and many of us are experiencing their growing pains and many of us are enjoying fantastic vacations with the two groups not necessarily being mutually exclusive. Some of their rules do require "work" and I for one do consider the work a hobby. Changes should not be surprising during their infancy. Recently changes have been made to SVO's upper management. I personally don't know what is going on in the company, but I suspect it's not very pretty. Usually upper management changes occur in a company when things aren't going so well. This could be sales or it could be company direction and goals. I think we should be expecting more changes - hopefully some good, probably some bad.

The overwhelming agreement in this thread and in the Starwood Management thread is their complete lack communication and the lack of providing a grace period for this rule change is really unforgivable.

I'm relatively new to Starwood TS, and to this board. I admire and respect those who have been "fighting the good fight" for years as long as I know that most of them are enjoying good (hopefully great) vacations as a result of their work/hobby.

We all know that Starwood reads this forum. I, for one, don't think that they all sit back and snicker and say "look at all these people that we've p**sed off". I hope that they actually try to understand the frustration some feel, and as they try to shape their young company that they try to do some positive for their owners, and realize that happy owners will purchase again and will refer other buyers (since they ARE in the business of selling TS's).

Possibly in the long-run, changing the requirements for 5* was the right decision for the company. It clearly was poorly executed, and clearly many of us have let Starwood know that. This is the point in my post that many of you will laugh at me, but keep in mind that I'm in Maui having a great Starwood experience.

Starwood - take a minute, and think about your decision - would it really hurt you to make a slight change in your decision. You would gain a good amount of goodwill if you would simply allow owners until the end of the year to get to 5* with 559,000 SO's. It would show that you care about your owners, and if you really think about it, what would the cost be - a 10% bonus on SP conversions (a quantifiable cost which might get one night in a $59/nt room), and a few upgrades in your hotels to rooms that would be vacant anyway (since upgrades are on an as available basis). My guess is that there are probably less than 20 or so people that would get to 5* by the end of the year (and keep in mind that they have to buy from you to get there!)

Give it some thought - you wouldn't lose respect in slightly changing a decision that you most likely did not make easily, you would gain respect by showing that you do care about your owners. Also, you should really do a little research on communication with your owners (without whom you would not have a company). I'm available for consultation as long as you let me stay in Maui.

-tim


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## pointsjunkie (Sep 30, 2008)

i share your thoughts.you said it very well and i hope they are going to read this and bring it to the people who came make a change.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 30, 2008)

*This is the best response I have seen here...*

Hi,

Your note seems to hit things squarely on the head. You are right about Starwood needing a good mind to work with. They clearly are getting a very bad name out there, and have an outstanding hotel program. I think the Hotel people should know what is going on.



dss said:


> rchen makes some excellent points and they go to the heart of the problem, SVN just isn't a very well thought out of an product or organization. It's a bunch of different properties and inconsistent rules cobbled together under a well regarded hotel brand that they were lucky to have access to. That being said, I still want to say that the change itself isn't what is causing the uproar but the absolutely tragic lack of meaningful communication coming out of Orlando is the root issue. If SVN were smart, they would hire one of our more active Tuggers as a consultant to vet their programs and potential changes thoroughly so they can at last be thoughtful in how they conduct their business. The only, and I mean only conclusion, I can come up with based on their actions, is that they really don't care, even a little, about their existing customers.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 30, 2008)

*I have lost trust, not faith..*

Funny part of this is that they really don't lose anything in terms of actual benefits if they had extended my time limit to get 5* done. I am already Plat through to Feb 2010. 

I am going to try to call a senior person there and see where I get..



R Chen said:


> I hope you haven't lost faith in the hotel side of Starwood.  The hotels and timeshares are really two different companies with a common owner.


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## tlpnet (Sep 30, 2008)

*oh... and Starwood... one more thing*

and this one's personal. If you completely ignore my advice (and I assume you will... I said I was in Maui, but I'm not smoking anything)... There is one thing that you must do, and if you don't, it will be a very bad business decision, and you should make sure that the name placard on your door is firmly attached... Katherine aka SDKath has referred hundreds of thousands if not a millon dollars of DEVELOPER sales your way this year alone. I personally bought, and I know that I've referred others who have bought to get to elite status because of Katherine's advice. She has most definitely been your biggest advocate on this board this year, and it's shameful that you haven't grandfathered her into 5* elite ownership already. It's only through a technicality that she isn't - she owns the required units. You need to act quickly because I feel Disney's sales increasing as yours fall each minute that Katherine remains 4*.

-tim


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 30, 2008)

*Tlpnet...*

It is great for you to stick up for SDKath. My question is why should you have to do that? Shameful doesn't begin to describe it really.... 




tlpnet said:


> and this one's personal. If you completely ignore my advice (and I assume you will... I said I was in Maui, but I'm not smoking anything)... There is one thing that you must do, and if you don't, it will be a very bad business decision, and you should make sure that the name placard on your door is firmly attached... Katherine aka SDKath has referred hundreds of thousands if not a millon dollars of DEVELOPER sales your way this year alone. I personally bought, and I know that I've referred others who have bought to get to elite status because of Katherine's advice. She has most definitely been your biggest advocate on this board this year, and it's shameful that you haven't grandfathered her into 5* elite ownership already. It's only through a technicality that she isn't - she owns the required units. You need to act quickly because I feel Disney's sales increasing as yours fall each minute that Katherine remains 4*.
> 
> -tim


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## tlpnet (Sep 30, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> It is great for you to stick up for SDKath. My question is why should you have to do that? Shameful doesn't begin to describe it really....


 
It's simple really - I too believe in Karma, but I live in a world where not everyone does. Instead money talks, and I want to make sure that Starwood recognizes the monetary contribution that Katherine has made to their sales in a year with a bad economy. It would be great to think that they would reward her because she's a nice person and helps out people here on TUG, but we all know better than that.

I hope I did not offend you or anyone here by singleing Katherine out.

-tim


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## oneohana (Sep 30, 2008)

With the increase in required *options to get 5*, what would happen if you were the 2001th 5* and didn't get the pfl? SVN was originally allowed only 2000 of these. Were they issued more? Who knows how many were issued so far. Their numbers have been all over the map.

Sorry Kath on what happened to you. It reminds me of what happened to Maria.


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## Troopers (Sep 30, 2008)

sml2181 said:


> If I would have been close to 5* now, I most certainly would have sent a letter to Mr. Matthew E. Avril, president of Starwood Vacation Ownership to let him know that this lack of communication indeed doesn't show any integrity at all. (Re-new qualifications to become 5*.)



As of last Monday, Sergio Rivera is running SVO.


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## sml2181 (Sep 30, 2008)

Yes, I am sorry - I was aware of that. I was writing this in the middle of the night - I couldn't sleep although I was very tired - I knew there was something not right but couldn't figure out what it was.


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## SDKath (Sep 30, 2008)

Thanks guys for the kind comments.  I am blushing (just can't find the right smily for it -- maybe this one?   )

Glad I could pass on the TS addiction!  It makes it all so much more fun.  I hope to continue to enable many others in the times to come.

Oh, and did you see this 81,000 SO auction on ebay that just closed?  I hope a TUGger got that deal (and has an iron stomach since that is a Wanted Weeks seller  )

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=300261777700

Katherine


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 30, 2008)

*No not at all Tim...*

I was only mentioning because I feel they should have treated her right to start with. They shouldn't have to have anyone tell them to do what is right.. which is what I was trying to say. While I am stuck in the same boat, I was not as close to Kath at getting it done, but, was within a couple of months I would say. 

Glad to have you on our side here!



tlpnet said:


> It's simple really - I too believe in Karma, but I live in a world where not everyone does. Instead money talks, and I want to make sure that Starwood recognizes the monetary contribution that Katherine has made to their sales in a year with a bad economy. It would be great to think that they would reward her because she's a nice person and helps out people here on TUG, but we all know better than that.
> 
> I hope I did not offend you or anyone here by singleing Katherine out.
> 
> -tim


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Sep 30, 2008)

*Phone number for Sergio?*

Does anyone have a number.. or should I just try my luck with SVO head office?



R Chen said:


> As of last Monday, Sergio Rivera is running SVO.


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## myip (Sep 30, 2008)

oneohana said:


> Sorry Kath on what happened to you. It reminds me of what happened to Maria.




Kath, What did happen to you?  Why are you having problem technically --> did you own the required Staroptions?

I got screwed last year because the salesperson promises everything.  I have evidence in email but they didn't care and just reply it is NOT in the contract.


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## tlpnet (Sep 30, 2008)

myip said:


> Kath, What did happen to you? Why are you having problem technically --> did you own the required Staroptions?


 
See post #17 above.


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## LisaRex (Oct 1, 2008)

myip said:


> I got screwed last year because the salesperson promises everything.  I have evidence in email but they didn't care and just reply it is NOT in the contract.



They may not care, but the attorney general would care.  False and misleading promises is what led to the timeshare industry getting a sordid reputation in the first place.  Many states have passed consumer protection laws to fight back. (e.g. 7 day recission periods.)  Please keep those emails and draft a letter of complaint to the AG of the state where you bought the timeshare, providing a hard copy of the emails as proof that they lied. 

I might also send a copy to the CEO of Starwood hotels, not SVO, since SVO has given you the cold shoulder. 

Word-of-mouth lying is difficult to prove.  Emails are accepted as empirical evidence.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 1, 2008)

*Please post your experience in the other thread entitled SVO Management..*

We are compiling a running list of experiences good and bad there. Please post what happened to you there...



myip said:


> Kath, What did happen to you?  Why are you having problem technically --> did you own the required Staroptions?
> 
> I got screwed last year because the salesperson promises everything.  I have evidence in email but they didn't care and just reply it is NOT in the contract.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 5, 2008)

*Despite promises last week to have a discussion with a senior manager... no call...*

I'm here to confirm that SVO management do not care about what you all think here...



StarwoodCanadafan said:


> We are compiling a running list of experiences good and bad there. Please post what happened to you there...


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## LisaRex (Oct 5, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> I'm here to confirm that SVO management do not care about what you all think here...



Yup.  Welcome to the club of Cynics.  Kind of a shame because we should be the ambassadors. 

I do think Starwood timeshares are nicer than the average timeshare.  However, when I stay in a hotel, it's usually a Marriott or Hilton.  I've actually received stellar service and upgrades as a mere silver Hilton.  If I were to buy another timeshare, I'd seriously consider either, esp since the Starwood locations are so limited.


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 6, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> I'm here to confirm that SVO management do not care about what you all think here...



I think most here already know this...
but keep up the good fight (or windmill tilting...)


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## DeniseM (Oct 6, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> I'm here to confirm that SVO management do not care about what you all think here...



Yep - sadly enough, that's the conclusion that most of us have come to, as well, but glad to have you along for the ride!


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## Troopers (Oct 6, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> I'm here to confirm that SVO management do not care about what you all think here...



Why do you think they monitor this board?


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## LisaRex (Oct 6, 2008)

R Chen said:


> Why do you think they monitor this board?



Because they contacted SDKath twice and asked her to retract or edit something she posted here. 

Because when I posted that Starwood still had the old number of StarOptions listed on MyStarCentral.com, it was changed with a few minutes of my post.

Because nodge posted a link on her "oranges" thread which linked to internal sales files and within a day or so, Starwood disabled the link. 

Because Starwood changed the *5 StarOptions needed right before a few Tuggers were going to close on their last properties following SDKath's "5* the cheapest way" system that she posted here.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 6, 2008)

*Yes but.. I've been Platinum many many years.. (I think 12) in a row on the hotel*

side.

You would think they would care a little bit.. just a little bit about me based on my history?

Do any of you know anyone else who has paid hotel Platinum status for 12 years running?

If they do not care about my status, who would they care about? I feel quite cheated here regarding the long long relationship and money I have sent their way. 

I am not saying I should be any better treated then any of you here.. a good customer is a good customer.. just boggles my mind that they haven't stepped up here to reach out to me about this.

I am definately left holding a bag here..

I guess I should send something to the hotel side to let them know. Just thought I would let the SVO people do the right thing.. which they clearly are not going to do.

SP




LisaRex said:


> Yup.  Welcome to the club of Cynics.  Kind of a shame because we should be the ambassadors.
> 
> I do think Starwood timeshares are nicer than the average timeshare.  However, when I stay in a hotel, it's usually a Marriott or Hilton.  I've actually received stellar service and upgrades as a mere silver Hilton.  If I were to buy another timeshare, I'd seriously consider either, esp since the Starwood locations are so limited.


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## SDKath (Oct 6, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> Because they contacted SDKath twice and asked her to retract or edit something she posted here.



Yup.  They did.  I made the change the first time but refused to the second time and told them they needed to get their own person on here if they don't agree with what we write.  K


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## duke (Oct 6, 2008)

SDKath said:


> That said, I think everyone saw something like this coming.  The Platinum benefits have been diluted and people like Duke and David here on the boards have been saying for the last 6 months that Starwood is close to their arbitrary "cap" of 2000 PFL members.



Come on......Every time any of us has met with an SVO salesperson they ALWAYS said "hurry, buy now, SVO will remove the SPG Platinum for Life benefit when they reach 2000 and they can change the benefits of 5*ELITE anytime".  Most dismissed this as Sales Talk to sell the timeshare.  SO,who was wrong here?

The fact that SVO is keeping the SPG Platinum for Life benefit is great and it IS fair that those who had already reached 5*ELITE keep (559,000) the benefit for LIFE too.

I am not happy that SVO removed the UPGRADE benefit because we were promised that when we became 5*ELITE.  They should have grandfathered that benefit in same as this.

I wouldn't be surprised if SVO discontinued allowing resales to be requalified at some time in the future - without warning.  NOTE:  You have been warned - AGAIN.

So, take advantage of whatever rules exist that let you attain the ELITE status you want.....but do it quickly.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 6, 2008)

*DUke... aren't you worried about about them changing the rules for you too?*

...ie 5* Plat exists for no one?





duke said:


> Come on......Every time any of us has met with an SVO salesperson they ALWAYS said "hurry, buy now, SVO will remove the SPG Platinum for Life benefit when they reach 2000 and they can change the benefits of 5*ELITE anytime".  Most dismissed this as Sales Talk to sell the timeshare.  SO,who was wrong here?
> 
> The fact that SVO is keeping the SPG Platinum for Life benefit is great and it IS fair that those who had already reached 5*ELITE keep (559,000) the benefit for LIFE too.
> 
> ...


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## tomandrobin (Oct 6, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> ...ie 5* Plat exists for no one?



The Platinum status is on the SPG side, the hotels, not SVO. So Starwood would have to eliminate the reward program on the hotel side. That would be a PR disaster for business travelers. Besides, why would Starwood do away with one of the best hotel reward programs, if not the best, in the industry.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 6, 2008)

*Hi, I was referring to taking away SVO's 5* elite ...*

.. Not the hotel program, which I agree with you 100%




tomandrobin said:


> The Platinum status is on the SPG side, the hotels, not SVO. So Starwood would have to eliminate the reward program on the hotel side. That would be a PR disaster for business travelers. Besides, why would Starwood do away with one of the best hotel reward programs, if not the best, in the industry.


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## LisaRex (Oct 6, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> side.
> If they do not care about my status, who would they care about? I feel quite cheated here regarding the long long relationship and money I have sent their way.



The biggest problem you have is that if they grandfather you in now, they'd have to grandfather everyone else in, too.  And they don't want to do that.  Something was driving this decision, and I have a sneaking suspicion it was  vindictiveness towards SDKath for writing her manual as to how to get to 5* so cheaply.

I agree with Duke that I doubt we'll see requalifications qualify for elite status in the future.  They've seen what hoops people will hop over in order to achieve the coveted PFL status.  And they decided to capitalize on it because it's the only thing they have going for them now.  

Still sucks for Canada and SDKath, but I sincerely doubt either of you will ever get satisfaction out of your complaints.  After all, we're Tuggers who are the first to encourage people to rescind.  We're fools if we think Starwood has the warm and fuzzies towards any of us.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 7, 2008)

*Grandfather..*

Hi LisaRex,

I can't believe that anyone at Starwood VO would be holding a grudge against anyone here. The good sales folks are trying to make a living in a tough market, just like everyone else. If something else is at play, I suspect it would be something at the very high end.. and we can speculate on what that might be. I don't agree that it could be anything personal against SDKath. She has been such an advocate for SVO, which has helped the sales folks I suspect. My sales person Heather Carr has been terrific.. is very knowledgeable, friendly and kind. What is going on is beyond her scope of control unfortunately, or, I truly believe she would help. MY issue remains a change without notice to the program, of which I was midstream. 

My nic remains StarwoodCanadafan for a reason. I am a long time Plat member on the hotel side, and they have treated me terrifically there. Unfortunately, senior MGMT on the SVO side no so much!



LisaRex said:


> The biggest problem you have is that if they grandfather you in now, they'd have to grandfather everyone else in, too.  And they don't want to do that.  Something was driving this decision, and I have a sneaking suspicion it was  vindictiveness towards SDKath for writing her manual as to how to get to 5* so cheaply.
> 
> I agree with Duke that I doubt we'll see requalifications qualify for elite status in the future.  They've seen what hoops people will hop over in order to achieve the coveted PFL status.  And they decided to capitalize on it because it's the only thing they have going for them now.
> 
> Still sucks for Canada and SDKath, but I sincerely doubt either of you will ever get satisfaction out of your complaints.  After all, we're Tuggers who are the first to encourage people to rescind.  We're fools if we think Starwood has the warm and fuzzies towards any of us.


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## Ken555 (Oct 7, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> My nic remains StarwoodCanadafan for a reason. I am a long time Plat member on the hotel side, and they have treated me terrifically there. Unfortunately, senior MGMT on the SVO side no so much!



The sad fact is that SPG and SVN are two different companies, with two different goals. If SVN had the same management style I expect life would be a lot different for us. Unfortunately, one is selling product a la used cars and the other caters to your experience and *on-going* loyalty. These are, sadly, mutually exclusive when it comes to Starwood.


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## myip (Oct 7, 2008)

Why would they do anything for Canada and SDKATH?  I was in the middle of getting 5* last years and they change the rules to $20K.  I have email confirmation from salesperson.  Many people caught in the rule changes.  I filed BBB and nothing happen.  It comes back with contract is contract.  It wasn't written down in the contract. There is a risk of going to requalify SVN.  It has been warned many times that SVN changes the rules all the time.  You have to catch it before it changes again.


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## LisaRex (Oct 7, 2008)

myip said:


> You have to catch it before it changes again.



Or decide not to do business with a company that changes the rules all the time without allowing even people who are in current negotiations to be grandfathered in.


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## Ken555 (Oct 7, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> Or decide not to do business with a company that changes the rules all the time without allowing even people who are in current negotiations to be grandfathered in.



SVN is a bureaucratic mess. We know this. They don't care about their customers post-sale. That's why I'm very pleased with my resale purchases - which I consider (even at today's prices) a 'value' buy. 

I suspect I will avoid all future owner's updates at Starwood and enjoy my time at the resorts from now on. Who needs the pain?

I admit that I'm partly hopeful that SVN gets in some serious financial trouble and ends up being bought by another player. It can't really get any worse for new buyers. Then again, I'm happy with the way it is - it's the new buyers or those of you buying direct/requalifying that have all the trouble. You've got my sympathy.


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## Troopers (Oct 7, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> Because Starwood changed the *5 StarOptions needed right before a few Tuggers were going to close on their last properties following SDKath's "5* the cheapest way" system that she posted here.



I highly doubt Starwood changed the 5* criteria because of a few tuggers.  If SDKath's method is so compelling that she basically had Starwood change a policy, my vote is for her to be president.


----------



## Troopers (Oct 7, 2008)

Ken555 said:


> They don't care about their customers post-sale.



As I said before, I think they do care.  If they didn't care, decisions would be made without customer consideration, which I think is far from the truth.  There's no way to satisfy ALL their customers.  Certainly someone's going to be unhappy about any decision made.


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## Troopers (Oct 7, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> My nic remains StarwoodCanadafan for a reason. I am a long time Plat member on the hotel side, and they have treated me terrifically there. Unfortunately, senior MGMT on the SVO side no so much!



My suggestion is to infiltrate Flyertalk and get some feedback.  Lurker I or II might be of some help.


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## DeniseM (Oct 7, 2008)

R Chen said:


> My suggestion is to infiltrate Flyertalk and get some feedback.  Lurker I or II might be of some help.



The hotel division and the TS division of Starwood are two completely separate entities.  Starwood Lurker has no connection to the TS side.


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## DeniseM (Oct 7, 2008)

R Chen said:


> As I said before, I think they do care.  If they didn't care, decisions would be made without customer consideration, which I think is far from the truth.  There's no way to satisfy ALL their customers.  Certainly someone's going to be unhappy about any decision made.



What customer consideration?  Please give an example!  

Have you read the other posts in this thread?  This is not just a matter of some customers not being satisfied - *most *of the Starwood owners on TUG are NOT happy with Starwood Mgmt.


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## LisaRex (Oct 7, 2008)

Was this always on the MSC Elite program T&Cs or is this new?

4. Only authorized SVN Resorts may offer and enroll SVN Members into SVN Elite. Starwood VOIs purchased through an unauthorized third party broker or on the resale market do not qualify for SVN Elite Membership.

8. Except as specifically provided in these Terms and Conditions, all SVN Rules apply to SVN Elite Members. SVN Elite, including eligibility criteria and each feature and benefit of SVN Elite, are subject to additions, modifications and/or termination at any time. While it is anticipated that the SVN Operator will continue to operate SVN Elite, any decisions to purchase a VOI or Week should be based primarily on the use of the VOI or Week, and not the continued availability of SVN Elite and its benefits.


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## DeniseM (Oct 7, 2008)

If these are new rules, exactly how does rule #4 effect resales?


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 7, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> If these are new rules, exactly how does rule #4 effect resales?



resale = "third party" Therefore, it is saying that unless you buy from SVO that the SOs do not qualify for Elite status - which is true unless you 'requal' the unit (which they do not discuss) AND *IMPORTANTLY* you have the proper documents that states actually your Elite status that is part if the requal AND *IMPORTANTLY* everything is documented and not a verbal agreement with a salesperson (per contract text - the 'negma' clause).


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## DeniseM (Oct 7, 2008)

Thanks David, I didn't phrase that very well.  I should have said, if #4 is a new rule, how does it _change_ the rules about resales and Elite Status?  Or is it the same rule but now they are documenting it in writing?


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## tomandrobin (Oct 8, 2008)

Ken555 said:


> SVN is a bureaucratic mess. We know this. They don't care about their customers post-sale. That's why I'm very pleased with my resale purchases - which I consider (even at today's prices) a 'value' buy.



We are extremely happy with our Starwood purchases, both resale and developer direct purchases. Starwood has top quality resorts, at high demand destinations....not many other timeshare companies can match Starwood's portfolio of resorts in quality and destination. And even though the SVN system is not perfect, it still works better then most others. 

For example, Marriott allows you to book at 12 months out. But if you are a multi-week owner, you book 12 months plus the number of extra weeks you own at a resort. This allows multi-week owners to snag all the best weeks at the resorts. There is no internal exchanging system. If you want a week at a non-home marriott resort, you have to go to II and get an exchange. 



Ken555 said:


> I admit that I'm partly hopeful that SVN gets in some serious financial trouble and ends up being bought by another player. It can't really get any worse for new buyers. Then again, I'm happy with the way it is - it's the new buyers or those of you buying direct/requalifying that have all the trouble. You've got my sympathy.



Beware what you wish for........

I can not imagine Starwood being rolled into Worldmark or Bluegreen systems! You think its hard getting into Harborside now, after a transfer of ownership there might not exist the SVN system or 3 day priority period in II. 

I too feel really bad for everyone cuaght in the middle of the change in rules. I really think Starwood really dropped the ball on the change without advance notice to owners. Even after the fact, I have not seen an official announcement on MSC or a statement in one of our almost daily Starwood emails/advertisements.


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## LisaRex (Oct 8, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> Thanks David, I didn't phrase that very well.  I should have said, if #4 is a new rule, how does it _change_ the rules about resales and Elite Status?  Or is it the same rule but now they are documenting it in writing?



I'm not even sure these are new rules and/or that they hadn't posted them before. When I first gained access to MSC.com, I wasn't taking screen shots of things to compare for when Starwood changed the rules overnight.  It might be a good idea to start doing that now, though, so that we might be able to catch things before someone gets burned. 

What I found interesting is that only authorized SVN resorts can offer elite status... what in the world does that mean? 

Since there was no official rules that I'm aware of regarding requalifications, SVO may have already closed this loop without making anyone aware of it.  Only those who tried to requalify would know for sure.  But given the rules, it's even more important that (as David says), get a clause that the requalified unit qualifies for Elite status in writing.


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## Troopers (Oct 8, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> The hotel division and the TS division of Starwood are two completely separate entities.  Starwood Lurker has no connection to the TS side.



I know that but at least Starwood Lurker may be able to do something about it.  At least Lurker will read and respond.  Maybe Lurker can pick up the phone or chat with SVO over lunch.  Maybe Lurker can simply mention it to his higherups.  It's not impossible that Lurker can't help.  Anyways, my suggestion to CanadaFan.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 8, 2008)

*Already been there R Chen... no luck.. they have no say*

Sent a note earlier this month to them...



R Chen said:


> My suggestion is to infiltrate Flyertalk and get some feedback.  Lurker I or II might be of some help.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 8, 2008)

*I agree Denise..*

R Chen, this is exactly about customer consideration. 



DeniseM said:


> What customer consideration?  Please give an example!
> 
> Have you read the other posts in this thread?  This is not just a matter of some customers not being satisfied - *most *of the Starwood owners on TUG are NOT happy with Starwood Mgmt.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 8, 2008)

*Suggestion:*

There are a number of us here. Why don't we all unify and as a group go to a senior VP or higher and ask for a change in the decision on the 5*.. say, give us till Dec 31.





StarwoodCanadafan said:


> R Chen, this is exactly about customer consideration.


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## Troopers (Oct 8, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> What customer consideration?  Please give an example!
> 
> Have you read the other posts in this thread?  This is not just a matter of some customers not being satisfied - *most *of the Starwood owners on TUG are NOT happy with Starwood Mgmt.



I do not equate Tuggers being not satisfied/happy =  Starwood lacks customer consideration.  There are lots of frequent flyers very unsatsified/unhappy with airlines now, does this mean that the airlines lack customer satisfacation?  Most people are unhappy with the government now, does this mean they don't care about their citizens?

I bet if you were able to poll ALL Starwood owners, most of them would be satisfied.  Decisions made by Starwood need to accomodate the majority of ALL customers.  They know that there will always be a small percentage that will be unhappy about any decision.  Tuggers are the most informed customers and thus, the most critical customers but we're also few among thousands.

I do think SVO management's could be better.  There's no excuse for their poor rollout and lack of communication.


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## Troopers (Oct 8, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> Sent a note earlier this month to them...



Keep pestering.  Make it an issue on Flyertalk.  Get other Flyertalk'ers to get involved.  Starwood hotel has been great in that respect...they actually have company representation in a "public" forum where people can say what they want to say and get a company response.  Very few companies can say that.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 8, 2008)

*Hi R Chen..*

While it may be true that your equation is not true, you go on to confuse the point below. 

Here is what is likely true. 
1. There are a number of satisfied Starwood owners.
2. There are number of Starwood unsatisfied owners
3. Starwood has no shown customer consideration on a number of fronts, which is painfully evident to most Tuggers


What does "Decisions made by Starwood need to accomodate the majority of ALL customers" have anything to do with customer consideration, or the issue du jour? They can still make decisions which need to accomodate all customers and still show very poor customer consideration on how is is rolled out.




R Chen said:


> I do not equate Tuggers being not satisfied/happy =  Starwood lacks customer consideration.  There are lots of frequent flyers very unsatsified/unhappy with airlines now, does this mean that the airlines lack customer satisfacation?  Most people are unhappy with the government now, does this mean they don't care about their citizens?
> 
> I bet if you were able to poll ALL Starwood owners, most of them would be satisfied.  Decisions made by Starwood need to accomodate the majority of ALL customers.  They know that there will always be a small percentage that will be unhappy about any decision.  Tuggers are the most informed customers and thus, the most critical customers but we're also few among thousands.
> 
> I do think SVO management .  There's no excuse for their poor rollout and lack of communication.


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## StarwoodCanadafan (Oct 8, 2008)

*Thanks for your suggestion..*

I will take your suggestion !



R Chen said:


> Keep pestering.  Make it an issue on Flyertalk.  Get other Flyertalk'ers to get involved.  Starwood hotel has been great in that respect...they actually have company representation in a "public" forum where people can say what they want to say and get a company response.  Very few companies can say that.


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## Fredm (Oct 8, 2008)

*For example, Marriott allows you to book at 12 months out. But if you are a multi-week owner, you book 12 months plus the number of extra weeks you own at a resort. This allows multi-week owners to snag all the best weeks at the resorts. There is no internal exchanging system. If you want a week at a non-home marriott resort, you have to go to II and get an exchange. 
*


TomandRobin, not quite so.
Marriott reserves 50% of inventory for multiple week owners to book at 13 months for consecutive or concurrent week reservations. Multiple week owners don't get to "snag" the best weeks at the expense of single week owners. In a floating week system they do have the opportunity to be assured of consecutive week reservations for their multiple weeks ownership

The fact that I.I. is the exchange mechanism does not change the internal preference given to the Marriott owner. How it is accomplished is not material to the outcome.


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## MLC (Oct 8, 2008)

I have been pleased with Starwood.  I only buy mandatory resorts on the resale market.  I do not like using II for starwood so I give my inventory to SFX instead of II.  That way I get a good deal for the week I have booked with II.

I never bought starwood to get elite but I have platinum with Marriott and diamond with Hilton.  I did not need the elite with Starwood.  I buy the weeks from Starwood that works for me and I never have a problem in getting weeks where I own.   It is hard to get at the 8 month mark in place like Harborside and St Johns.  I have friends that own at St Johns so I can trade with them if I want to go there.

Customer service depends on the person you talk to.  I have had some good ones and some terrible ones.  I have also had the same experience with Marriott, Four Seasons, Hyatt and Hilton.  The Royals I own I always get good service.

This is just my experience.


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## Troopers (Oct 9, 2008)

StarwoodCanadafan said:


> What does "Decisions made by Starwood need to accomodate the majority of ALL customers" have anything to do with customer consideration, or the issue du jour? They can still make decisions which need to accomodate all customers and still show very poor customer consideration on how is is rolled out.



Lack of consideration/unhappy Tuggers doesn't mean no consideration.  Comments have been made that there is no customer consideration...to me this means that when decisions are to be made, customer opinions is not part of the discussion which I think is not true.

I get the sense that some here believe the decision was aimed at the 30 or 40 Tuggers.  I do not believe that to be the case.  Starwood made a decision aimed at all their customers.  We just feel the pain more than others.

Don't get me wrong here.  I'm not trying to justify Starwood but I can understand their position and why they may have done this.  I'm part of decision making at my firm and decisions are made that negatively impacts employees or customers (more frequently with the down economy).  If some Tuggers worked at my firm, they would conclude that we don't care about them and have no consideration for them which is far from true.  How management runs a company is different than how customers/employees view it.


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## nodge (Oct 9, 2008)

R Chen said:


> Lack of consideration/unhappy Tuggers doesn't mean no consideration.  Comments have been made that there is no customer consideration...to me this means that when decisions are to be made, customer opinions is not part of the discussion which I think is not true.



How many VP’s do you have at your company?  Do they routinely fly on private chartered jets instead of commercial aircraft like SVO does?  
Has your top cheese at your company promised something to your employees/customers over 10 years ago and still not delivered on it while continuing to pay lip service that it is coming soon like SVO did/is doing?  When a major change to one of your policies that affects your employees/customers is arbitrarily implemented, do you selectively distribute notice of the change or better yet, not inform any of your employees/customers like SVO does?  If one of your employees/customers asks you a question, do you ignore it like SVO does?

These aren’t mere misperceptions or hypercriticality here.  With respect to service-oriented issues, SVO management is just plain bad.  

The weird thing is that if SVO management were to just appear hat-in-hand and say . . . . 

“We’re sorry. You see, we are just a bunch of real estate developers that stumbled into this whole sustaining a service-based operation thing, and quite frankly, despite our tie-in with Starwood Hotels, we have no clue how to do that.  But, even though our real estate developer skills are more-or-less going to waste in this economy, we aren’t going to let anyone in the Starwood Hotel side of things take over our jobs/paychecks and tell us what to do with respect to that whole service-based side of things either.  Moreover, since you are captive audience anyway, our general inclination is to just say ‘deal with it,’ but, sometimes late at night, every now and then, we sort of see your point.  So, what can we do to fix this without having to give up any of our control/paychecks to those pansies in the hotel group and without having to spend any more of your money, which we are currently using to fund our massively overstuffed payroll and various boondoggles?” 

. . . we’d likely embrace this dialog and offer meaningful suggestions to help the dolts at SVO keep their precious paychecks while still improving the customer service side of things.

So I agree that SVO management does give us owners some “consideration” before making its decisions.  It just that our place in the consideration food chain falls well below SVO managements’ own interests, which currently massively conflict with ours.

-nodge


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## Ågent99 (Oct 9, 2008)

R Chen said:


> I do not equate Tuggers being not satisfied/happy =  Starwood lacks customer consideration.  There are lots of frequent flyers very unsatsified/unhappy with airlines now, does this mean that the airlines lack customer satisfacation?  Most people are unhappy with the government now, does this mean they don't care about their citizens?
> 
> I bet if you were able to poll ALL Starwood owners, most of them would be satisfied.  Decisions made by Starwood need to accomodate the majority of ALL customers.  They know that there will always be a small percentage that will be unhappy about any decision.  Tuggers are the most informed customers and thus, the most critical customers but we're also few among thousands.
> 
> I do think SVO management's could be better.  There's no excuse for their poor rollout and lack of communication.




Well put, R Chen.  I moderate a BMW board and some folks who complain on there about the cars wonder why BMW doesn't listen to them.  Uh, BMW's sales have risen every year for several years now so BMW must feel they are doing something right.  It is the VERY FEW on an enthusiast board that might be happy and they must realise that they are in the minority.


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## James1975NY (Oct 9, 2008)

nodge said:


> How many VP’s do you have at your company?  Do they routinely fly on private chartered jets instead of commercial aircraft like SVO does?
> Has your top cheese at your company promised something to your employees/customers over 10 years ago and still not delivered on it while continuing to pay lip service that it is coming soon like SVO did/is doing?  When a major change to one of your policies that affects your employees/customers is arbitrarily implemented, do you selectively distribute notice of the change or better yet, not inform any of your employees/customers like SVO does?  If one of your employees/customers asks you a question, do you ignore it like SVO does?
> 
> These aren’t mere misperceptions or hypercriticality here.  With respect to service-oriented issues, SVO management is just plain bad.
> ...



Nodge....how many developers (publicly traded) are performing and delivering to your expectations? Not antagonizing you...I am honestly curious.


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## nodge (Oct 9, 2008)

James1975NY said:


> Nodge....how many developers (publicly traded) are performing and delivering to your expectations? Not antagonizing you...I am honestly curious.



I'll answer that as soon as you tell us how many SVO timeshares you own, what job you had at SVO, and how you came about leaving it.  Not antagonizing, just curious too.

My point is that the other hotel-based timeshare companies simply hired developers to build their timeshares, but they had the good sense to retain control over the basic operations of the businesses.  In contrast, Starwood, desperate to catch-up with Marriott, "bought" a no-name, pre-existing timeshare company ("Vistana, Inc."), developers and all, and the Vistana, Inc. developers made darned sure that those developers continued to operate all aspects of the "new" Starwood timeshare business.  The poor management we (well at least us owners here) are enduring from SVO stems from the basic fact that to this day SVO continues to be run by a bunch of no-name timeshare developers that simply got lucky enough to be able to use Starwood's good name and reputation.

I think it is fair to say that we SVO owners are experiencing the level of service we would expect if we had bought from a no-name "Vistana, Inc."   But we were led to believe (and certainly paid a premium too), by salesmen such as yourself? and Starwood no less, that this was a "Starwood" product with expectations and services comparable to other Starwood products, and that's where the conflict lies.

-nodge


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## James1975NY (Oct 9, 2008)

nodge said:


> I'll answer that as soon as you tell us how many SVO timeshares you own, what job you had at SVO, and how you came about leaving it.  Not antagonizing, just curious too.
> 
> My point is that the other hotel-based timeshare companies simply hired developers to build their timeshares, but they had the good sense to retain control over the basic operations of the businesses.  In contrast, Starwood, desparate to catch-up with Marriott, "bought" a no-name, pre-existing timeshare company ("Vistana, Inc."), developers and all, and the Vistana, Inc. developers made darned sure that those developers continued to operate all aspects of the "new" Starwood timeshare business.  The poor management we (well at least us owners here) are enduring from SVO stems from the basic fact that to this day SVO continues to be run by a bunch of no-name timeshare developers that simply got lucky enough to be able to use Starwood's good name and reputation.
> 
> ...



I do not own any weeks of timeshare at the moment. I simply do not have the capacity to travel as often as I would like from a financial perspective.

I was employed with Vistana Management starting in 2009 which as you know was bought out by Starwood. I was with them until 2006. My last position was managing the owner services department.

I decided to leave because frankly, I was not paid enough to do what I did and I wanted to pursue a career that allowed me to leave my work in the office. What would look like a relatively decent salary just didn't make sense after working 60 hours a week.


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## James1975NY (Oct 9, 2008)

James1975NY said:


> I do not own any weeks of timeshare at the moment. I simply do not have the capacity to travel as often as I would like from a financial perspective.
> 
> I was employed with Vistana Management starting in 2009 which as you know was bought out by Starwood. I was with them until 2006. My last position was managing the owner services department.
> 
> I decided to leave because frankly, I was not paid enough to do what I did and I wanted to pursue a career that allowed me to leave my work in the office. What would look like a relatively decent salary just didn't make sense after working 60 hours a week.



Oh yeah....and the fact that no matter what you did or how hard you tried, you were always dissappointing someone. That got really old too.


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## nodge (Oct 9, 2008)

James1975NY said:


> I do not own any weeks of timeshare at the moment. I simply do not have the capacity to travel as often as I would like from a financial perspective.
> 
> I was employed with Vistana Management starting in 2009 which as you know was bought out by Starwood. I was with them until 2006. My last position was managing the owner services department.
> 
> I decided to leave because frankly, I was not paid enough to do what I did and I wanted to pursue a career that allowed me to leave my work in the office. What would look like a relatively decent salary just didn't make sense after working 60 hours a week.



Wow.  You da man!  Welcome!

Is there anything you'd like to share with us about life on the inside?  

I sure would like to know what Starwood did to manage, change, or improve anything having to do with "owner services" shortly after it bought Vistana, Inc. and over your tenure there.

Also, why has SVO been promising on-line booking for the past 10 years, and still not delivering it?  Wassup with that?

-nodge


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## Troopers (Oct 9, 2008)

nodge said:


> When a major change to one of your policies that affects your employees/customers is arbitrarily implemented, do you selectively distribute notice of the change or better yet, not inform any of your employees/customers like SVO does?  If one of your employees/customers asks you a question, do you ignore it like SVO does?



Perhaps from Starwood’s perspective, this change is not a major change…this is a minor change since it only impacts maybe 0.5% of their customers.  On Tug, it feels like a major change because it has impacted many of us here.  Also, why do you think it was arbitrarily implemented…did they flip a coin and not even discuss it?  Perhaps it was their intent, their strategy to not announce and bring attention to it since it really only affects a small percent of their customers.



nodge said:


> These aren’t mere misperceptions or hypercriticality here.



Not so sure about this…this thread is fatalistic.  People are starting to believe their own (or other’s) BS.



nodge said:


> With respect to service-oriented issues, SVO management is just plain bad.



Agreed.



nodge said:


> So I agree that SVO management does give us owners some “consideration” before making its decisions.  It just that our place in the consideration food chain falls well below SVO managements’ own interests, which currently massively conflict with ours.



Isn’t this true for all companies in our capitalistic country, except for maybe non-profits.  Is there a company whose self interests are below their customer’s interest?  Unfortunately, consumers across the board are further down the food chain because of the economy….increased prices, decreased product/service.


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## James1975NY (Oct 9, 2008)

nodge said:


> Wow.  You da man!  Welcome!
> 
> Is there anything you'd like to share with us about life on the inside?
> 
> ...



Oops....I meant 1999 not 2009 (starting date).

Personal challenges aside, I really liked the management team and I was really proud to work for a company that had such a strong tradition of celebrating its employees for great work. I was and still am a proponent of the Starwood brands as well. I spent my honeymoon in St. John (hotel) and almost didn't come back! - I stayed in the hotel side (don't worry, I didn't steal from the owner block!)

With my experience and knoweldge of the product Starwood sold and serviced, I was involved with a lot of planning....from developing a new reservation system, to MyStarCentral to Live reservations on the internet. I am not 100% sure why this project is not completed as of today but I am guessing it is justifying the capital needed to do so. The goal, I would think is still there.

Although others (developers) are doing it (live reservations), I can say from being involved in the planning stages that the programming and development of this project is a beast. There are so many ownership rules and excpetions (like SDO company 47 and 49) to inventory utilization that it is a very complex project. Being out of the mix for over 2-years I dont want to pretend to be an expert so I will leave it at that. I think it is more of a capital thing....

The people at Starwood were great to work with and I still have long lasting friendship with many of them. I still have my awards from Starwood shining in my office at home!


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## Ken555 (Oct 9, 2008)

James1975NY said:


> I still have my awards from Starwood shining in my office at home!



Thanks for your insight, James!

And how many oranges did Starwood give you... just curious. :hysterical:


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## nodge (Oct 9, 2008)

R Chen said:


> Perhaps from Starwood’s perspective, this change is not a major change…this is a minor change since it only impacts maybe 0.5% of their customers.  On Tug, it feels like a major change because it has impacted many of us here.  Also, why do you think it was arbitrarily implemented…did they flip a coin and not even discuss it?  Perhaps it was their intent, their strategy to not announce and bring attention to it since it really only affects a small percent of their customers.



I agree that given SVO’s actions to date, putting any faith in the elite program’s current list of benefits or even its continued existence is a fools’ folly.  But the larger issue here is how can SVO continue to market a bundle of extra-benefits to induce sales, and then within months, and in some cases days, just up and cancel them with impunity when some people are even mid-stream in the process?  

I think your right, someone somewhere in SVO decided to up the StarOption requirement to make 5 Star Elite for reasons that probably weren’t aimed at harming us existing owners (except maybe SDKath to get her back for publishing her 5 Star methods here on TUG ).  I think it is also fair to say that that decision wasn’t made the exact same day that it was implemented across the board in the sales offices.  The delay from deciding to up the StarOption requirement to actually implementing the new requirement probably means that someone, somewhere in at least one of the SVO sales offices was told of the old StarOption requirement as an inducement to get them to buy, and they actually did buy based on that representation, even though SVO collectively “knew” that representation was false when it was made.

Who cares you ask?  Well, the law does.  Intentionally promising someone something as an inducement to get them to do something with knowledge that the promised thing isn’t true are the three biggest fingers of the five fingers of FRAUD.  (The remaining 2 fingers, --buyer is deceived, and injury results-- are certainly also present here).   With knowledge of SVO’s top management being imputed to SVO and the actions of the SVO salesmen being imputed to SVO, SVO’s continued sales of developer timeshares after it made the decision to up the StarOption requirement but before actually implementing it, while also remaining silent to this issue to its customers amounts to good ‘ol American Fraud.  As an added bonus, in some jurisdictions such corporate activity can also be considered a criminal act, with the corporate officers of the wrong doer corporation facing good ‘ol American jail time and a good ‘ol American criminal conviction on their record to boot.

Of course, this whole issue could have been easily avoided if SVO just gave folks reasonable notice before changing the plan.  Since it didn’t, we owners have every right to be mad at SVO management, and SVO management has every right to hope that when their doorbell rings it isn’t a process server.

I agree that keeping customers happy is a tough job.  Employee awards are nice and all, but that customer service job should start by at least not committing fraud against ANY of your customers, even if the number defrauded is less than 0.00000000000000005%.  By the same token, if SVO didn’t commit fraud, maybe its customers would be happier and not complain so much.  There could be a chicken/egg thing going on here.  

Regarding the SVO Management conflict issue:

I think in this case, the company’s best interest is to keep its owners happy so we can all be little ambassadors of good will and get people, including ourselves, to buy more timeshares from the company.  This parallels us owner’s interests’ nicely.

In contrast, SVO’s top management’s interest is to keep their salaries while maintaining complete control over the entire operation, even if they are not qualified for a particular role and even if that control compromises the best interests of the company and/or us owners.  The conflict isn’t with the company and us, but with the SVO top management’s personal interests and us.  But for us being a captive audience, this type of conflict could not last very long.  But we are, so it does.

If anyone thinks that anything I’ve said here is BS, please point out the specific point or fact and I’ll be happy to link you to the appropriate authority.  Otherwise, just globally calling something BS, is, well, BS.

-nodge


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## James1975NY (Oct 9, 2008)

Ken555 said:


> Thanks for your insight, James!
> 
> And how many oranges did Starwood give you... just curious. :hysterical:



That was good


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## James1975NY (Oct 9, 2008)

nodge said:


> I agree that given SVO’s actions to date, putting any faith in the elite program’s current list of benefits or even its continued existence is a fools’ folly.  But the larger issue here is how can SVO continue to market a bundle of extra-benefits to induce sales, and then within months, and in some cases days, just up and cancel them with impunity when some people are even mid-stream in the process?
> 
> I think your right, someone somewhere in SVO decided to up the StarOption requirement to make 5 Star Elite for reasons that probably weren’t aimed at harming us existing owners (except maybe SDKath to get her back for publishing her 5 Star methods here on TUG ).  I also think it is also fair to say that that decision wasn’t made the exact same day that it was implemented across the board in the sales offices.  The delay from deciding to up the StarOption requirement to actually implementing the new requirement probably means that someone, somewhere in at least one of the SVO sales offices was told of the old StarOption requirement as an inducement to get them to buy, and they actually did buy based on that representation, even though SVO collectively “knew” that representation was false when it was made.
> 
> ...



Still wondering:

Nodge....how many developers (publicly traded) are performing and delivering to your expectations? Not antagonizing you...I am honestly curious.


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## nodge (Oct 9, 2008)

James1975NY said:


> Still wondering:
> 
> Nodge....how many developers (publicly traded) are performing and delivering to your expectations? Not antagonizing you...I am honestly curious.



Fair enough.  

My only source for publically-traded developer personal experience is SVO.  I've been a customer of non-publically traded developers.  With the exception of SVO, those non-publically traded developers all tended to return phone calls, answer questions when asked, and do what they said they would do without changing the rules midstream.  They also played a lot of golf.

Then again, none of those developers had the task of also running a sustaining service oriented business after they built it.  Rather, the sustaining task was handled by homeowners associations and/or a separate management company that is completely separate from the developer side of things.  Unlike SVO, these HOA’s/management companies were either made up of owners and/or trained professionals in the customer service industry, and they were all somehow able to maintain properties within their respective  developments for much, much, much cheaper than SVO appears to be able to do it for its properties.

My primary issue with SVO isn’t about the developers themselves.  They sure know how to build and maintain nice resorts in nice locations.  It’s just that with SVO’s parent company being in the hotel business and all, and chocked full of hotel service people that know how to run a hotel service industry and all, and having every bell and whistle in reservation systems and all, and an outstanding reputation for dealing with us whinny customers, etc., and all, why does SVO maintain its own archaic service system completely separate from any input, help, or suggestion from Starwood’s hotel division?  More importantly, when SVO is selling timeshares, why doesn’t it tell potential customers about this distinction in service?

I’m sure you and your department gave excellent customer service with the resources you were provided.  But SVO is representing to us owners and potential owners that those resources are on the order of a Westin or Sheraton hotel experience, which you are well aware from your experience trying to implement the on-line reservation system at SVO over your years there, simply isn’t so.

I think part of our job here on TUG is to inform potential SVO owners of these issues so they can make a more informed purchasing decision.  Of course, if SVO were to step up to the plate and actually improve its level of services, we’d be more than happy to let folks know about those changes too.

-nodge


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## James1975NY (Oct 9, 2008)

nodge said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> My only source for publically-traded developer personal experience is SVO.  I've been a customer of non-publically traded developers.  With the exception of SVO, those non-publically traded developers all tended to return phone calls, answer questions when asked, and do what they said they would do without changing the rules midstream.  They also played a lot of golf.
> 
> ...



Care to share the names of the non-publicly traded resorts/developers?


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## nodge (Oct 9, 2008)

James1975NY said:


> Care to share the names of the non-publicly traded resorts/developers?



Are you looking for a new job?  You'd have to move to Oregon, but I'd be happy to put you in touch with 'em.  

Why does what I'm saying  -- return phone calls, answer questions, fully inform customers and potential customers, stop screwing owners -- seem so unreasonable?

-nodge


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## James1975NY (Oct 9, 2008)

nodge said:


> Are you looking for a new job?  You'd have to move to Oregon, but I'd be happy to put you in touch with 'em.
> 
> Why does what I'm saying  -- return phone calls, answer questions, fully inform customers and potential customers, stop screwing owners -- seem so unreasonable?
> 
> -nodge



Nothing unreasonable about it! Not looking for a new Job....I am more than content in doing what I do today. I have one of those rare jobs that not only do I leave the work at the office, I can bring a lot of fun into the office. I also happen to make money doing it. Its amazing!


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## Troopers (Oct 9, 2008)

nodge said:


> I agree that given SVO’s actions to date, putting any faith in the elite program’s current list of benefits or even its continued existence is a fools’ folly.  But the larger issue here is how can SVO continue to market a bundle of extra-benefits to induce sales, and then within months, and in some cases days, just up and cancel them with impunity when some people are even mid-stream in the process?
> 
> I think your right, someone somewhere in SVO decided to up the StarOption requirement to make 5 Star Elite for reasons that probably weren’t aimed at harming us existing owners (except maybe SDKath to get her back for publishing her 5 Star methods here on TUG ).  I think it is also fair to say that that decision wasn’t made the exact same day that it was implemented across the board in the sales offices.  The delay from deciding to up the StarOption requirement to actually implementing the new requirement probably means that someone, somewhere in at least one of the SVO sales offices was told of the old StarOption requirement as an inducement to get them to buy, and they actually did buy based on that representation, even though SVO collectively “knew” that representation was false when it was made.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the response.  Although I do not completely agree with all your comments, I do understand and do appreciate it.  No need to continue the dialogue.

As for the BS comment, it wasn't directed to you....my apologizes if it came across that way.  A pitfall of forum is spreading of incorrection information, which becomes the truth when constantly repeated.


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## Troopers (Oct 9, 2008)

James1975NY said:


> Care to share the names of the non-publicly traded resorts/developers?



Please do share.  I'm interested.


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## nodge (Oct 9, 2008)

R Chen said:


> Please do share.  I'm interested.



Why on earth would anyone be interested in learning what other real estate developers I've dealt with?  What'cha got in exchange for that useless info? 

I will say for free that during the real estate and cheap & plentiful credit boom, I did hop on the bandwagon and buy at least one full ownership vacation interest here in sunny Oregon.  In that process, I also didn't buy anything from other developers in the area after getting pretty close to doing a deal with some of them.  None of those developers failed to return calls or not promptly answer any questions I had, but some of them did call me from the golf course with answers.

-nodge


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## Troopers (Oct 9, 2008)

nodge said:


> Why on earth would anyone be interested in learning what other real estate developers I've dealt with?  What'cha got in exchange for that useless info?



I'm in the business.  I have some dirty secrets.  And yes, lots of golf  .


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## stevens397 (Oct 9, 2008)

Hey James - I didn't know you were also a dentist!


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## Sea Six (Oct 31, 2008)

*Elite Level StarOptions Increase*

I was at Vistana Villages today, and the sales people were telling me the required number of StarOptions for Elite status levels was increasing by 200,000 points effective 11/1/08.  In other words, today you would be a 3* Elite with 159,000 StarOptions, but as of tomorrow 11/1, you would need 359,000 Options.  They were also saying that the Sheraton units were expected to sell out by 12/31, and that all new units at the new resorts under the Westin name would be starting at prices in the $59,000 per unit week range.  Quite a surprise to me, anyone else hearing this stuff?


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## clsmit (Oct 31, 2008)

Not a surprise given the recent 5* change, but if what is now 4* becomes the level for 3*, then what happens with the other levels?


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## Sea Six (Oct 31, 2008)

5* jumps from 649,000 to 849,000 and 4* jumps from 359,000 to 559,000.


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## pointsjunkie (Oct 31, 2008)

just spoke to starwood elite services and 3 & 4* are NOT going up. the only one that went up is 5 *.

again the sales person was talking out of his ---!!!!


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## Bill4728 (Oct 31, 2008)

Sea Six said:


> I was at Vistana Villages today, and the sales people were telling me the required number of StarOptions for Elite status levels was increasing by 200,000 points effective 11/1/08.  In other words, today you would be a 3* Elite with 159,000 StarOptions, but as of tomorrow 11/1, you would need 359,000 Options. * They were also saying that the Sheraton units were expected to sell out by 12/31, *and that all new units at the new resorts under the Westin name would be starting at prices in the $59,000 per unit week range.  Quite a surprise to me, anyone else hearing this stuff?



In this economy , that is almost impossible to believe!!  VV isn't sold out but some of the older phases are sold out.


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## SDKath (Oct 31, 2008)

Nothing in Vistana is sold out nor will it be in the coming years.  They are starting to sell Falls and Springs now for $19500 with first use year 2010 since the renovations are happening in 2009.  Then Spas and Palms come after that.  What the heck was this salesperson saying????  They have thousands of units to try to sell in this market. 

Completely ignore it all.

Katherine


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## myip (Oct 31, 2008)

Sea Six said:


> 5* jumps from 649,000 to 849,000 and 4* jumps from 359,000 to 559,000.


Wow... they changes from 559K to 649K and now 849K...  SVO is so quick with the changes...


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## lars158 (Nov 1, 2008)

pointsjunkie said:


> just spoke to starwood elite services and 3 & 4* are NOT going up. the only one that went up is 5 *.
> 
> again the sales person was talking out of his ---!!!!



Did they confirm that 5* Elite now require 849,000 StarOptions??


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## Sea Six (Nov 1, 2008)

He had a chart in his office that showed 
3*  159,000
4*  359,000
5*  649,000

and said everything was going up 200,000 points on 11/1.  Maybe he just meant 3* and 4*??


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## Sea Six (Nov 1, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Nothing in Vistana is sold out nor will it be in the coming years.  They are starting to sell Falls and Springs now for $19500 with first use year 2010 since the renovations are happening in 2009.  Then Spas and Palms come after that.  What the heck was this salesperson saying????  They have thousands of units to try to sell in this market.
> 
> Completely ignore it all.
> 
> Katherine



He did mention selling Falls and Springs.  I think the sell-out was referring to new units at Vistana Villages under Sheraton, and that all the new resorts would be Westin, and start at $59,000.


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## pointsjunkie (Nov 1, 2008)

today is the day that the amount of staroptions to achieve 3 and 4* are rumored to go up and just called starwood and they are NOT going up.


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