# Are Fractionals deeded, fixed, and rentable?



## pwrshift (Aug 21, 2007)

Does anyone know if upscale Fractional Ownership or Private Residence Clubs (ie. Ritz Carlton Clubs, Four Seasons, etc.) are generally:

1. deeded or RTU?

2. fixed or floating?

3. can be rented?

4. Can be exchanged outside the 'family' of resorts?

Thanks,
Brian


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## Kagehitokiri (Aug 22, 2007)

3 >
i have not seen rentals @ st regis NY

i have only seen 1 old rental @ timbers castello di casole

(besides that, ive never seen restrictions on renting fractionals - so while it seems to me that they cant restrict it, theyre not out there. maybe the owners there just dont want to rent.)

4 >
internal exchange / conversion / etc options really vary widely

there are now a bunch of fractional exchange companies / owner started sites


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## Dave M (Aug 22, 2007)

I can't speak for all fractionals, but....

1. Some are deeded.

2. Either fixed or floating or a combination, depending on the resort. As an example, prime weeks (e.g., July 4th) might be rotated among owners at one resort and might be an extra-cost fixed week at another.

3. Fractionals - generally, yes, they can be rented. Private residence clubs, yes and no. I think HCC is an example of a group that prohibits rentals.

4. Depends on the resort. Brigantine Quarters and The Owners Club in Hilton Head are examples of two fractionals that exchange through RCI.

There are enough differences among fractionals and PRCs that you'll pretty much have to find out the specifics for each resort or group.


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## Steamboat Bill (Aug 22, 2007)

Most fractionals allow rentals and most destination clubs do not allow rentals.

Some destination clubs have business membership plans that allow friends to stay there.


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## Kagehitokiri (Aug 22, 2007)

> Brigantine Quarters and The Owners Club in Hilton Head are examples of two fractionals that exchange through RCI.


 very interesting.



> Some destination clubs have business membership plans that allow friends to stay there.


 in addition to corporate/group plans, it seems a fair number automatically allow spouse/parents. others increase the price for that / extended family use. some with unlimited use have "gift" weeks, seem to usually be family only though.

the ER ultra plan allows anyone you let use your nights. 



on another note, i just noticed portofino club actually rents their properties, at least in the continental collection  first DC ive seen do that. i guess its not as bad as leasing instead of owning, but jeese.


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## Dave M (Aug 22, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> very interesting.


According to a 2006 ARDA report, there are 10 fractional resorts in SC, all in Hilton Head, and 17 in pwrshift's home country!


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## GregGH (Aug 22, 2007)

Dave M said:


> According to a 2006 ARDA report, there are 10 fractional resorts in SC, all in Hilton Head, and 17 in pwrshift's home country!



Thanks Dave - neat report - 

One point  worth mentioning -- Fractions are resale'able ( if that is a word ) - it will be interesting to see how resale prices hold up over time.  

Does anyone know of a MLS web site that makes searching for fractionals any easier???

The DC's on the other hand - since they have to 'returned' back to the club - we really don't get a chance to see market forces validate the price ( I didn't say the word 'bubble' - but in 5 years we will know )

Greg


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## Kagehitokiri (Aug 22, 2007)

dave, thanks for posting that report, im sure many will find it very interesting. i definitely found pages 34 and 36 very much so 

how much the fractional matches regular market depends on price level.
low = worse than outside market
high = market forces have little/no impact, similar to other high end sales

some DCs are equity. worldwide private residences doesnt even have an annual fee. to a certain degree, membership numbers themselves / their changes can reflect the market (because it affects membership pricing)

not sure how one can suggest there is a DC bubble? DCs are not overpriced at all.  

although i guess youre talking about the relation to real estate prices, because of DC portfolio / fractional development? then again were back to price, as well as the hotel market, if they are a part of the portfolio.


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## TomCayman (Aug 31, 2007)

pwrshift said:


> Does anyone know if upscale Fractional Ownership or Private Residence Clubs (ie. Ritz Carlton Clubs, Four Seasons, etc.) are generally:
> 
> 1. deeded or RTU?
> 
> ...



As a developer, the answers to the ones I sell are :

1  : Deeded

2 : Neither fixed nor floating... but time allocated on a rotating calendar over a 50 year period to even out usage and rental income among fractional owners

3 : Definitely can be rented... that is the primary use (except when owners use them)

4 : Exchanged through II.

That's all I've got to say about that (to quote Forrest Gump), but ask Caribbeansun, he is a frequent poster here and owns at our place.


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## pwrshift (Sep 1, 2007)

Thanks Tom.  I'm still a little confused on your answers and perhaps you missed that I was asking only about the very high end fractionals.

1. I was told the RC in St Thomas is RTU because of foreign ownership rules and that there are others that way too off the continent.

2. If your time is not fixed or floating, but 'rotating' does that mean you won't get the same 'time' every year if you want it, or will you have to get on the phone to book your $800,000 Ritz Carlton exactly a year ahead like you do with the cheaper Marriotts.  That seems a strange way to treat wealthy clients.

3. So in addition to Ritz Carlton renting your unused time for you, you could do it yourself?

4. I wasn't aware you could 'exchange' your Ritz Carlton through II, just like any other timeshare.  Are you sure of that...and what would you get in return?

Brian



TomCayman said:


> As a developer, the answers to the ones I sell are :
> 
> 1 : Deeded
> 
> ...


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## johnmfaeth (Sep 1, 2007)

One correction, there are no foreign ownership rules that affect US citizens owning deeded property (including timeshares) on St. Thomas as it is a US territory. Each year I record many dozens of deeds there for myself and clients.

Examples of deeded St. Thomas timeshare properties include:

Bluebeard's Castle
Wyndham's Bluebeard's Club
Wyndham's Elysian Beach (some units are deeded, great majority is RTU)

Fractionals are "time sequenced condominiums" in legal terms which is the exact same thing as traditional deeded timeshares.

RTU leases are chosen for the convenience of the developer in the US and US Territories. They are also an easier way to impose "life limits" of the lease (i.e. expiration dates to usage). And they save the developer the time and expense of initial deed preparation and recording.

They could have deeded units on St. Thomas and RTU leases outside the US and still have them all in a overlying floating pool, That's how Wyndham Fairshare Plus points are setup across the Wyndham system which includes deeded and RTU owners.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 1, 2007)

pwrshift >

#2/3 >
Four Seasons Punta Mita Residence Club (Hillside)
http://www.vrbo.com/117956
http://www.vrbo.com/121604
http://www.vrbo.com/141235
http://www.vrbo.com/141200

Four Seasons Punta Mita Hillside Villas (full ownership)
http://www.vrbo.com/121594
http://www.vrbo.com/143207

AFAIK there cannot be restrictions on renting fractionals. residences are a different matter though, and for example urban locations probably have long minimum leases.

OTOH, i have not seen any rentals for either St Regis NY or Timbers Castello Di Casole. not sure whether owners just dont rent, or if there are restrictions of some kind. only ad for Timbers ive found was from 2004.

#4 > Fairmont's fractionals are fairly high end, and I believe they are in II. no idea how it works. AFAIK there are no others.


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