# Mexico Safety & City Guides for Puerto Vallarta, Cabo, Playa del Carmen, Acapulco, Mazatlan, Cancun, Zihuatenejo/Ixtapa



## riverdees05

This is an old sticky post that has been redone.  New info/trip reports on any of the Mexican cities will be added to the
new sticky for city information.  If you have a trip report or info for any of the Mexican cities, go ahead and post it in the regular
Mexico forum and contact the forum moderator to have it linked in the sticky.  2-26-2020


We are starting to pull together our plans for 2011/12 Winter and trying to decide if we should add Mexico to our exchange list.  What is your opinion?


Admin edit: Adding information/links threads to this first post here to consodlidate stickies! 6/2017

Puerto Vallarta Information and Links

Cabo San Lucas Information and Links

Playa Del Carmen and Mexican Riviera information and Links

Acapulco Information and Links

Mazatlan Information and Links

Cancun Information and Links

Zihuatenejo/Ixtapa


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## beach.bar.bob

riverdees05 said:


> We are starting to pull together our plans for 2011/12 Winter and trying to decide if we should add Mexico to our exchange list.  What is your opinion?



Try this recent thread...this discussion has been thoroughly hashed through just recently...
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136826

Safe travels.

bbb


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## Passepartout

My opinion is there is only modest and manageable risk to tourists in tourist areas of major resort destinations. PV, Cancun, Cabo, Mazatlan. I would consider it on a par with other major cities. That said, I wouldn't venture into the 'inner cities' away from tourist services especially at night. I wouldn't drive longer distances away from population centers, especially near the U.S. border. 

There has been much written here and on the State Dep't websites, so no point in rehashing it again.

OTOH, maybe by not going to Mexico for a while, the government will get serious about eradicating the gangs of the drug cartels. Awfully hard to do when the cartels are better armed than the gov't.

Jim Ricks


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## pittle

*Safe!*

Do not be afraid to exchange into a timeshare in Mexico.

We have sold our Hawaii, Massachusetts, and Florida timeshares and bought were we want to go - Mexico!!!   We now own 15 weeks in Mexico and if it were not safe, we would not take our family there (especially our grandson).  We  feel comfortable enough about the safety that last year I drove 3 other gals down to Puerto Penasco from Phoenix without my husband (it was his idea that we drive down there).  This year I am going to Acapulco MP in January with just girls.  We drive to Mazatlan to spend the month of June each year.


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## joe-holiday

*15 weeks in Mexico*

Thats alot of Maintainence Fees!
What are your top Mexico places?
Joe


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## pittle

Yes - it is a lot of maintenance fees, but we have friends and family that travel with us and all insist on paying their share, so that helps.  They know that we paid the money upfront and even though most were purchased resale for phenominal prices, we have made the initial outlay.  We love vacationing with others, but like our own space, so we often get each couple their own 1-bedroom unit for the cost of the m/f and everyone has privacy.   6 of our weeks are Grupo Mayan weeks that have the no pay unless you go feature, so that helps. Sometimes friends or family ask to rent our units and we do that for the cost of the m/f.

As for favorites - that is hard to say.  Each just has its own unique features. I guess since we have bought so many weeks in Puerto Vallarta, that would have to be the number 1 location for us.  We have 3 annual Sheraton Buganvilias weeks and 1 e-o-y week, plus a week at the Mondavi and of course there is the Mayan Palace at the Marina and MP & GM in Nuevo that we can go to also. 

My husband loves Mazatlan.  We bought the month of June at a small resort where we have been the only guests at that time of year for the past two years.  We actually love having our own private beach and pool.  It is a good place to take grandkids.

We have been to all the other places that have Mayan Palace or Grand Mayan Resorts.  All are great and each is somewhat different, so we rotate our weeks around so that we go to at least one each year.  I am going to Acapulco in January and we were at the MP Marina in November.  The year before, we went to the GM in Nuevo with kids and grandkids - everyone loved it.  We have been to Cabo San Jose and the Mayan Riviera (Playa del Carmen.)   

Our least favorite location would be Cancun.  It is too "glitzy" and there are more A/I resorts there.  We like to go to the local restaurants.  The beach and ocean in Cancun is the best however.

We had always hoped to retire and travel and have been very fortunate that we can actually do that.


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## nazclk

*Mexico*

I go to Cabo twice a year once in March and again in November.  Wonderful place, very friendly and a lot of great food that's not that expensive if you watch where you go. Two months and we'll be there. :whoopie:


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## Pat H

I like the Mayan Palace/Grand Mayan resorts where I own. I also prefer the West Coast because the weather is better in the winter. Puerto Vallarta/Nuevo Vallarta areas are my preference. The Royal Resorts in Cancun are very nice as are the Melias in Cancun and PV.


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## jbuzzy11

we go to Cancun 2X a year, once in Feb or March and once in Aug..  WE LOVE IT!!  30+ visits and counting....  Just be smart where you go and what you do.


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## Passepartout

jbuzzy11 said:


> Just be smart where you go and what you do.



Not to be smart-alecky, but for people who don't- or haven't gone there, they don't have any idea where to go or what to do. THAT's why they asked. Even for the truly wary, the Cancun hotel zone is no more unsafe than the major tourist area of any U.S. resort community. And no more Mexican, which is why I don't go there.

Jim Ricks


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## buceo

Passepartout said:


> ...the Cancun hotel zone is no more unsafe than the major tourist area of any U.S. resort community. And no more Mexican, which is why I don't go there.
> 
> Jim Ricks



Unlikely Cancun is visited for its "Mexican feel" (if so you'll likely be disappointed). We go there for relatively low cost and  ease of access, great value for food & drink & lodging, the Caribbean & its beaches & it's a great stepping off point to see other parts of the Yucatan Peninsula (Mayan sites, cenotes, places like Merida etc).  The OP asked about "MX" that's a huge topic.  We just go to the Yucatan for a great vacation.


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## Cheryl17

*Safety Of Travel In Mexico--put All Posts In This Thread*

I just recently noticed this link near the end of the State Department's travel warning:  mexico.usembassy.gov/eng/eacs_MexicoSecurityUpdate.html.  The updates contained info. I didn't know, and I found it very helpful when deciding whether to travel to Mexico and to what area.


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## Cathyb

*Acapulco*



Cheryl17 said:


> I just recently noticed this link near the end of the State Department's travel warning:  mexico.usembassy.gov/eng/eacs_MexicoSecurityUpdate.html.  The updates contained info. I didn't know, and I found it very helpful when deciding whether to travel to Mexico and to what area.



Also Tuggers, please read today's news on the murders in Acapulco in the last few days.


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## riverdees05

Where do you find the article on the on the murders in Acapulco in the last few days?


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## ilene13

Cheryl17 said:


> I just recently noticed this link near the end of the State Department's travel warning:  mexico.usembassy.gov/eng/eacs_MexicoSecurityUpdate.html.  The updates contained info. I didn't know, and I found it very helpful when deciding whether to travel to Mexico and to what area.



I just looked at the site and the last update was in October 2010.  Not very timely.


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## mikenk

riverdees05 said:


> Where do you find the article on the on the murders in Acapulco in the last few days?



here's one source.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/lt_drug_war_mexico


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## e.bram

It is unfortunate that some posters beat the messengers instead of the message.


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## Cheryl17

ilene13 said:


> I just looked at the site and the last update was in October 2010.  Not very timely.



Actually, the last update was the week of Nov. 29.  Rather than using the website for info. on recent events, I found it helpful when planning our vacation to look at where violence has been occurring (i.e. in what parts of the country and whether it was in or near tourist areas) and what types of violence.  Also, the updates contained info. I hadn't read elsewhere (e.g. the schools in Nayarit were closed early last year because of the threat of violence).


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## Fern Modena

I read the information, and actually it doesn't mean much to me because it is not real specific to where the incidents were.  In my "metro" area there are  violent incidents, some of them murders.  In my local area, not so much.  But everywhere has something, it is just a matter of degrees.  You really need to read further before making decisions, IMHO.

Fern


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## mikenk

e.bram said:


> It is unfortunate that some posters beat the messengers instead of the message.



The validity and relevance of the message is always fair game on these forums as is the motivation of the messenger. In your case, both are always in question.


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## buceo

e.bram said:


> It is unfortunate that some posters beat the messengers instead of the message.



To point out the obvious that's because the message can be OK and the messenger the problem, it's not rocket science.   Your OP in your recent thread is a good example; we all know drug violence/murder in MX is a huge problem, but what the heck were you saying?  Because of the drug cartels I shouldn't go to MX, I shouldn't go to Cancun, I shouldn't buy "hecho en MX", I shouldn't drink Tequila, I shouldn't drink the water, or maybe I should move there because it's a wonderful country; what? I have no idea what your post was for?  I did say "yes" to a further explanation.


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## pjrose

My crystal ball sees a lock
 :deadhorse:


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## buceo

I'm not so sure about stopping threads, there is huge interest in MX. I'd let these discussions play out. Timeshares aside, here are numbers from Tripadvisor:

                               # Topics   # Posts
Yucatan Peninsula	233,462	1,873,209
Florida	                188,018	1,371,849


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## Monica

*Acapulco*

I'm one that vacations only in Acapulco.  Acapulco is a very large city and the only city that has name recognition in the state of Guerero, which is where it is.  If I were to say 15 slain people were found in Racienmento, would you know where that was?  It's the part of Acapulco where alot of the violence occurs.  It's basically a very, very poor city on the outskirts of Acapulco, yet a part of Acapulco.  Acapulco is the only city in the state of Guerero that anyone that doesn't travel there knows of.  So, just because it says Acapulco, it doesn't mean the actual Golden Zone or old Acapulco.

I traveled to Acapulco alone over Thanksgiving week, solo as my husband couldn't travel at that time.  I didn't see any extra security everyone is so worried about.  The only men with machine guns that I saw were in Mexico City watching over the airport.  I've been to Acapulco dozens of times, and will continue to have it be my destination of choice.  If you don't really know what's going on, please don't assume it's a dangerous place.

Who would ever have thought a Safeway parking lot in Tucson, AZ, would turn out be so dangerous?

Violence is everywhere.  In Acapulco, don't hang out in the slums, don't look for drugs, and use your common sense.

It's an absolutely fantastic vacation destination!


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## riverdees05

"Apparently common sense is not all that common!"


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## Liz Wolf-Spada

The news of 14 decapitated bodies being found in Acapulco is all over regular news. No, it didn't say where it was, but as someone who doesn't know Mexico, I would find it troubling. There are dangerous areas in San Francisco too, but 1 or 2 murders there is big news, so there is your comparison and if you ask anyone they'll tell you not to go to certain areas and wander around at night. Occasionally something weird happens, like the tourist shot in daylight on Powell Street. I love San Francisco. If I knew Acapulco as well as I know San Francisco, I would be able to put it in context. I can't, so to me, it says, "Go somewhere else."
Liz


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## mikenk

Liz Wolf-Spada said:


> The news of 14 decapitated bodies being found in Acapulco is all over regular news. No, it didn't say where it was, but as someone who doesn't know Mexico, I would find it troubling. There are dangerous areas in San Francisco too, but 1 or 2 murders there is big news, so there is your comparison and if you ask anyone they'll tell you not to go to certain areas and wander around at night. Occasionally something weird happens, like the tourist shot in daylight on Powell Street. I love San Francisco. If I knew Acapulco as well as I know San Francisco, I would be able to put it in context. I can't, so to me, it says, "Go somewhere else."
> Liz



For me, this post says a lot about these threads. Liz, you know San Francisco and where not to go; I know Dallas and where not to go; others know the same for places they live or visit frequently. I will bet the first thing you do when you visit a new city in the USA is to learn where not to go.

We who love to visit Mexico know the same in cities there. Monica knows Acapulco to that same level; I frequent and know the Riviera Maya, Puerto Vallarta, and Cabo to that same level. Phyllis (Pittle) frequents all and knows them well. I know I feel safer by far wondering around anywhere in downtown Puerto Vallarta  than doing so in unknown parts of American cities - including San Francisco.

I have no problem with people who do not take the time to really learn about Mexico to choose not to go - its their loss IMHO. I do have a problem with people jumping on this board expounding drug murder incidents and declaring Mexico unsafe for tourists when in actuality they have no clue.

Let's put things a bit in perspective. Last year, NYC alone had 532 murders. In 2009, there were 79 murders of Americans in all of Mexico - most of which were Americans involved in the drug wars and most in Juarez and other border towns. This would leave very few innocent Americans murdered in Mexican tourist cities. In that same year, there were over 21 million international tourists, mostly Americans, that visited Mexico and there are 500,000 permanent residents. Your odds are much greater getting killed as a tourist in a car wreck in the USA than murdered in Mexico - and yet we all take driving vacations.

Certainly, all of us that love visiting Mexico are concerned and hope the drug wars end soon, but we also have enough experience to keep things in perspective and enough common sense to stay safe.

Mike


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## KarenLK

And I think most of us regulars will know when and if it gets so out of control that it is dangerous for us....not just based on a State Dept warning.


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## mikenk

KarenLK said:


> And I think most of us regulars will know when and if it gets so out of control that it is dangerous for us....not just based on a State Dept warning.




I agree and I hope it never comes to that. We head to Riviera Maya next week; I will be surprised if we see any change.

--- And about our friendly State Department. Last year in the height of the Swine Flu epidemic, we were being warned not to leave Texas which had lots of cases to visit Cabo which had none then or since.

Mike


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## pjrose

buceo said:


> I'm not so sure about stopping threads, there is huge interest in MX. I'd let these discussions play out. . . .



I agree - I think the problem is when posters start arguing too much or criticizing each other rather than just discussing the issue in a non-heated rational way.


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## Karen G

pjrose said:


> I agree - I think the problem is when posters start arguing too much or criticizing each other rather than just discussing the issue in a non-heated rational way.


That is my opinion as well. I don't like to be too heavy-handed in moderating this forum and I appreciate very much when posters stick to the issue at hand rather than insulting, berating, or criticizing others for their opinions.


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## siesta

people just need to keep it in perspective.  Mexico has seen better days.  It has undoubtedly been safer for us tourists in the past, but that doesn't mean it is not safe altogether.  If you do not feel comfortable, don't go.

Years ago, on a trip to Italy, I diverted from the main tourist cities and made a special trip to visit where my roots were in a particular part of Naples.  Walking through the street at night, a local overheard me speaking broken italian to my female companion, out of the kindness of her heart, she approached me and told me to have the woman I was with remove her diamond earrings from her ears, or the local street thugs would most likely rip them out as we walked the streets. Now even if something happened, this wouldn't mean all of Italy isn't safe, or even Naples.  It was just I was in a place where I shouldn't have necessarily been, and with company I shouldn't have necesarily brought there at that time.  There is danger everywhere, you just have to be prepared for it, and accept it.  And in the case of us in Italy, not invite it.


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## oldngrk

*Just arrived back from Cabo last night.*

We had a wonderful time.  We had dinner at Desperado's and Maria Corona in Cabo San Lucas and dinner at Tequila and La Panga in San Jose Del Cabo.  At no time did I worry about the safety of my family walking around town after sunset.  This is coming from a kid who grew up in Brooklyn.


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## TerriJ

*Cancun*

I have a trip to Cancun coming up in three weeks, so thanks for the info.  It will be our fourth trip to Cancun.


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## x3 skier

*Everywhere/Nowhere is safe????????*

I suppose the recent unfortunate events including the slaying of a Congresswoman and a Federal Judge along with unfortunate others means Arizona is too dangerous for travel. 

I travel anywhere I desire unless there is a true epidemic for which I have no vaccination. Most recently I was in Berlin in November while the "Terrorist Warning" was being hyped by the media and German Authorities.

If you are concerned, don't go anywhere. If you are not, just take reasonable precautions and enjoy yourself like I seem to be able to do in spite of media hysteria.

Cheers


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## Tropical lady

*not another horse in this race....*

But I did have to join in after lurking this thread for a while!!
Mikenk and x3 skier have stated it perfectly, no additional comments needed.  So far, if you read reports, the Virgin Islands have more crime, Mexico is a mess, most of the big US cities are horrible, and etc....    Well put....if you are concerned stay at home, if not take reasonable precautions.  We had a great vacation in spite of the swine flu last year....did not see a bug in spite of mask and gloves!!!  Mexico, here I come at the first opportunity.  I do appreciate the "heads up" info for my protection, but rest assured that I do my own travel advisory and do not rely on info given "for my benefit".  Do you really think that most people traveling do not research for themselves?


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## pjrose

Tropical lady said:


> But I did have to join in after lurking this thread for a while!!
> Mikenk and x3 skier have stated it perfectly, no additional comments needed.  So far, if you read reports, the Virgin Islands have more crime, Mexico is a mess, most of the big US cities are horrible, and etc....    Well put....if you are concerned stay at home, if not take reasonable precautions.  We had a great vacation in spite of the swine flu last year....did not see a bug in spite of mask and gloves!!!  Mexico, here I come at the first opportunity.  I do appreciate the "heads up" info for my protection, but rest assured that I do my own travel advisory and do not rely on info given "for my benefit".  Do you really think that most people traveling do not research for themselves?



I do appreciate the occasional posts with travel advisories; I do not routinely look for them.


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## joe-holiday

*Dont come to Seattle!*

As seen on front page of todyas Seattle Times:
UPDATE - 05:59 PM

Man, 22, charged in Giffords shooting

Authorities on Sunday charged a 22-year-old man described as a pot-smoking loner with trying to assassinate Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and killing six others. 

Seriously folks I think we can see the same headlines anywhere in the Country.
We drive on Freeways everyday yet everyday people get killed
Its Ok to travel to Mexico where our timeshares are. Just hang out by the pool it is safe but beware, No lifeguard on Duty
Joe


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## siesta

joe, that was in Tucson, AZ not Seattle, WA.


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## joe-holiday

*dont go there either*

The sky is Falling


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## pittle

I said this in another thread - I am heading to Acapulco this Saturday without my husband - just with my best friend.    Hubby suggested Acapulco because he knows that at the Mayan Palace and Grand Mayan, it is very safe and that the taxi driver we use would never take us anywhere in the city that was not safe for tourists.   We are going on this trip for R&R and other than a few dinners out, we plan to just hang out at the resort.   I will admit that I am more adventurous in the Mayan Riviera, Puerto Vallarta, Mazatlan, and Cabo San Jose locations than I am in Acapulco, but that is because Acapulco is so much larger.  I don't take the bus when in Acapulco and do in the other areas.


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## Cheryl17

Tropical lady said:


> I do appreciate the "heads up" info for my protection, but rest assured that I do my own travel advisory and do not rely on info given "for my benefit".  Do you really think that most people traveling do not research for themselves?



I posted the link because I occasionally read posts in which someone asks if it is safe to travel to Mexico, and I thought it was a useful, unbiased source of info. that someone else may find helpful.


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## mikenk

Cheryl17 said:


> I posted the link because I occasionally read posts in which someone asks if it is safe to travel to Mexico, and I thought it was a useful, unbiased source of info. that someone else may find helpful.



Cheryl,

I find no problem in your post at all; people can read and judge for themselves the validity and perspective of the advisory. The problem for me is when people decide to interpret, extend, and make judgements for me as to what it means. You didn't do that - it just opened the door for others to do so.

Actually, in this day and time, I wouldn't mind having a sticky on the top where people can post official travel advisories - but with no ability to discuss.

Mike


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## easyrider

*Safety Of Travel In Mexico--put All Posts In This Thread*

Being safe from violence in Mexico is a real concern these days. With a drug war going on and the murder rate escalating many tourists are uncomfortable about choosing Mexico as a vacation destination.The unreported crime, corruption and language barriers are other factors that influence decisions not to travel to Mexico. 

In reality, the overall murder rate of tourists at this time is comparable or less than many American cities. This defiantly includes my city. 

Most resort cities in Mexico have a lower murder rate than most American cities. The odds of an American tourist being murdered in Mexico in a resort town are very very low to almost non-existent.

These odds increase if you buy drugs, prostitutes or hang out where known crime exists. Violence against Mexicans visiting family members in Mexico has definitely increased. Violence in the drug war zones has increased. What makes these murders very noticeable is the way they are done. Images of heads and corpses are shown in the media and are disturbing.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/03/20/mexicos-drug-war-takes-growing-toll-americans-1304439007/


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## DebBrown

We're leaving for Mazatlán this Saturday and I've done a ton of research on crime in the area.  Yes, my initial reaction was panic but that was mostly based on fear of the unknown.  We live in the Chicago area and there is plenty of violence here.  The difference is that I know what to expect here, areas to avoid, etc.  I needed to learn the same thing about this next vacation destination.

At this point, I am past the fear and very much looking forward to some time on the beach and some SUN!!

Deb


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## Karen G

*Safety Of Travel In Mexico--put All Posts In This Thread*

Since safety of travel in Mexico is currently a topic of great interest, please make all posts on this topic in this one thread instead of starting new threads.  

Please be courteous in your discussions and do not attack other posters when their views are not the same as yours. Thank you for your adherence to all the regular TUG posting rules.


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## beach.bar.bob

*View from the US Department of State*



Karen G said:


> Since safety of travel in Mexico is currently a topic of great interest, please make all posts on this topic in this one thread instead of starting new threads.
> 
> Please be courteous in your discussions and do not attack other posters when their views are not the same as yours. Thank you for your adherence to all the regular TUG posting rules.



As this topic has now been made a sticky...here's a helpful link

US Department of State Travel Warning for Mexico:
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_4755.html

Safe travels.

bbb


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## TerriJ

We are going to Cancun soon; it will be our fourth time.  We thought about a day trip to Isla de la Mujere.  Any safety concerns there?  Otherwise we hang out at the resort or go to the shopping mall that is on the main drag there.


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## fkclay

*No safety issues in Cancun this week -- we recommend daytrip to Isla de la Mujere*

Terri,

My husband and I have been in Cancun since Saturday afternoon -- our first time -- we're packing to leave today   

We took a daytrip to the small island on Tuesday -- it was a fun day.  We rented a golfcart for the day for $40 (like the hundreds of other visitors there that day).  We drove from one end of the small island to the other -- twice.  The majority of the time we were right behind another tourist golfcart -- with another one right behind us.  

We stopped at several hotels/bars/restaurants all over the island -- it was a very fun day.

The shopping area is very contained -- many small shops right there when you get off the ferry.

Not much to do except shop and drive a golfcart (unless you bring your bathing suit and sit on their beach awhile).

Everyone here agrees that tourism is their only industry -- if they want jobs they have to make it safe for visitors to come in -- so don't be afraid of the water or the ice, or taking the tours.

Enjoy!


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## Tropical lady

Cheryl17,  I certainly did not intend to infer that the OP was not needed, informative, or welcome.  My post was not directed to you, but as a general reply to the posts giving horror stories that have already been in the news and are older articles.  I reread my post and can see where it was misunderstood, but I really did mean that I appreciate the info, but when emphasizing that I do check things out, I can see where it could be read not as I had intended.    A timely "heads up" is always welcome for those of us who do go and enjoy Mexico.  My last sentence was just a question, but sounded strong.  Mikenk's response was well worded and written, much better than mine.  I do agree with everything he said.


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## TerriJ

Thanks for the good info.  We have always enjoyed our time in Cancun and I am in the Cancun countdown again for my 2011 trip.


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## siesta

I love the countdown


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## KevJan

Two weeks to go for us!


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## mikenk

We arrived yesterday in Riviera Maya - went into Playa today - felt safe as always everywhere.

We are also in countdown for Nuevo Vallarta in April.

Mike


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## TerriJ

I will start my countdown soon, when I am two weeks out.


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## beach.bar.bob

TerriJ said:


> We are going to Cancun soon; it will be our fourth time.  We thought about a day trip to Isla de la Mujere.  Any safety concerns there?  Otherwise we hang out at the resort or go to the shopping mall that is on the main drag there.



Absolutely no safety problems with a day trip to Isla Mujeres.  
We spent a day there in November. 
Renting a golf cart was the way to go for us...others opt for scooters.  
You'll enjoy it. 

Safe travels. 
bbb


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## TerriJ

Thanks again for all the TUG help.


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## K&PFitz

This very odd post was posted on Trip Advisor as a review of the Ritz Carlton Cancun.  The reviewers screen name was TV-Executive.  


Take with a large grain of salt:

"I've been to Cancun many times over the years and even staying at the Ritz now can not keep out the unsafe conditions for tourists. If you are traveling with a woman do NOT let her go around on her own. The Ritz itself is not on the par of those I've been to in Paris or New York it was more like a so-so Hyatt.

Do not wear rings, chains or watches of real value. Do not bring purses or shoes that people will want to steal.

If you are stopped on the street and can run away do so. Do not get into a car or allow you or the woman you are with to be taken into buildings. This happen to us and we were able to get away.

More important!!! I've seen Cancun change for the worse in the past 4 years and now it is dangerous. Will will never go back. "

 

I'll be in Cancun in NINE DAYS!!!!


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## TerriJ

I wonder what it was that was seen to make him say that?


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## K&PFitz

I suspect he was lured into a timeshare presentation.


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## richardm

*CDC Warns of Legionairres Outbreak in Cozumel.*

........The Centers For Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta has released a health alert for US travelers about an outbreak of Legionnaires Disease that is occurring at two resorts located in Cozumel, the Wyndham Cozumel Resort and Spa (formerly the Reef Club Cozumel) and the Regency Club Vacation Resort..........

http://etimesharenews.blogspot.com/2011/01/cdc-warns-travelers-of-legionnaires.html

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/content/in-the-news/legionnaires-disease-cozumel-mexico.aspx


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## Transit

I have no interests in Mexico .It's just not my thing. By making this thread a sticky it automatically suggests that there is a serious safety problem in Mexico.


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## ondeadlin

How could you realistically argue there isn't at last some question on this point, Frank? I could understand an argument that certain tourist areas are completely safe, but Mexico as a whole certainly has significant safety issues right now.


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## MommaBear

I just got back from Cancun and had a lovely and safe trip. We stayed at the Westin Lagunamar. La Isla, the mall across the streeet, has police at the street crossing at night and there is security presence in the mall, inlcuding one very young looking fellow with a machine gun in front of the Gucci store. It made my husband happy because it effectively kept me out of the store. We went to Isla Mujeres and had a lovely time, never felt the least bit uncomfortable or nervous about security. I would go back in a heartbeat and would venture further without concern. We did walk down the beach during the day as well as down to restaurants in either direction from the hotel in early evening without any sign of loiterers or suspicious people.


----------



## Transit

ondeadlin said:


> How could you realistically argue there isn't at last some question on this point, Frank? I could understand an argument that certain tourist areas are completely safe, but Mexico as a whole certainly has significant safety issues right now.



You right in that there are areas which are known to be unsafe.
I'm Just pointing out that when you enter the Mexico board it seems that by having the sticky right there at the top it suggests that it is unsafe to travel to Mexico. No other board or area on this forum has a specific safety concern thread. Some visitors to the forum may assume that it's unsafe to travel to Mexico at all.


----------



## ondeadlin

I see your point, but I think a sticky is preferable to a weekly thread in which someone asks about Mexican travel issues, which then erupts into a debate over the safety of traveling to Mexico.


----------



## ondeadlin

MommaBear said:


> I just got back from Cancun and had a lovely and safe trip. We stayed at the Westin Lagunamar. La Isla, the mall across the streeet, has police at the street crossing at night and there is security presence in the mall, inlcuding one very young looking fellow with a machine gun in front of the Gucci store.



I hated it after 9-11 when every trip to the airport included seeing American military personnel on duty with machine guns. Definitely did not make me feel safer (and I know from talking to some friends in the military that they viewed it as complete window dressing). I prefer my heavily armed security to be present, but more stealthy.


----------



## TerriJ

Thanks again, I am in my two week countdown.


----------



## Karen G

Transit said:


> I'm Just pointing out that when you enter the Mexico board it seems that by having the sticky right there at the top it suggests that it is unsafe to travel to Mexico. No other board or area on this forum has a specific safety concern thread. Some visitors to the forum may assume that it's unsafe to travel to Mexico at all.


The thread that appears at the top of list of sticky posts is the thread in that group that has the most recent post.  If someone makes a post to the Grupo Mayan thread right after I make this post, then the Grupo Mayan thread will appear on top.  If someone makes a post to the thread about driving in Mexico, then that thread will be the top one.


----------



## mikenk

ondeadlin said:


> I see your point, but I think a sticky is preferable to a weekly thread in which someone asks about Mexican travel issues, which then erupts into a debate over the safety of traveling to Mexico.



I agree. In the past, it has been very easy and frequent that someone posts another travel warning with a flashy subject line that erupts into a heated debate. In my opinion, it is best to have it in one thread where someone can get all viewpoints.

While on the subject, does anyone have actual statistics on crime by Mexico cities as opposed to the county at large? In reality, no one here should really care about the crime statistics in Juarez when they are going to  Cabo or Puerto Vallarta. Or for that matter and maybe more importantly, does anyone have actual statistics on the crime against U.S. citizens in tourist cities. We know about 20 million U.S. citizens visit every year, my bet is the murder rate against U.S. citizens is about zilch. It would be nice to see some actual data.

Mike


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## ondeadlin

Reliable statistics are impossible to come by IMO. The Mexican government compiles the statistics and claims Mexico has one of the world's lowest crime rate's per capita, lower than Japan or Ireland.


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## DebBrown

We are in Mazatlan right now returning home in the morning.  We have had a wonderful trip and have enjoyed the area and the people.

Having said that, I am not eager to return due to the increase in violence.  The problem is that it is totally random and unpredictable.  There is just no way to protect yourself.  It is not a matter of staying out of "bad" neighborhoods and taking taxis at night.  The latest incident occured this past Sunday.  At 1:30 in the afternoon two men gunned down a third man at a popular shopping center.  Two bystanders were injured which is often the case when people start shooting with AK47s.

While I know some things can happen anywhere, I don't want to have fear of this type of violence over shadow my vacation.  It really is a shame.  Tourism is down here and the wonderful people at Mazatlan will be the ones to suffer.

Deb


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## mikenk

DebBrown said:


> Having said that, I am not eager to return due to the increase in violence.  The problem is that it is totally random and unpredictable.
> 
> Deb



On the contrary, I think random and unpredictable is much more in USA. Im Mexico, it is really generally in the border towns and drug related - very little in tourist areas and very, very little against U.S. citizens, the murders last week were not in a tourist area.

Mike


----------



## DebBrown

mikenk said:


> On the contrary, I think random and unpredictable is much more in USA. Im Mexico, it is really generally in the border towns and drug related - very little in tourist areas and very, very little against U.S. citizens, the murders last week were not in a tourist area.
> 
> Mike



Mike, the shootings in Mazatlan have indeed been in tourist areas.  The one Sunday was at a popular shopping center.  Before that there was a shooting at Casa Country which is across the street from the El Cid resort where we are staying.  There was also a recent shooting at the federales building which is just down the street from the new Emerald Bay timeshare.  These were all in the last month.

While I don't mean to be overly dramatic, I just don't like worrying about this type of thing during my vacation.  It does put a dent in "paradise".

Deb


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## siesta

here is an article about the incident Deb is referring to, an interview with the innocent bystander caught in the crossfire, it is titled ironically enough:

*"Shooting victim says he will return to Mazatlan"*

http://www.nationalpost.com/Shooting+victim+says+will+return+Mazatlan/4141132/story.html


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## DebBrown

siesta, thanks for the link.  I hadn't seen that article.

I found info about the different shootings on the Mazatlan english language news site at : http://mazmessenger.com/category/news/local-news/

Deb


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## timeos2

*Personal choice - no Mexico for our family*



mikenk said:


> For me, the problem with this paragraph is that it is misleading. Mexico is a huge country; people visit tourist areas not just Mexico. The crime rate in Juarez is sky high, my bet it is very low in Cabo. I would hate someone not to visit Cabo because of the crime rate elsewhere; it is unfair to the people in that really nice part of Mexico. Personally, whenever I see this type of post, i will always challenge it, but it should end there: one opinion and an opposing opinion.
> 
> Mike



My daughter, who has traveled the world (unlike myself who gets nervous in going through a "southern sheriff" type county!) absolutely refuses to even visit Mexico!  We have been in California a number of times and talked of a train trip over the border even for just a day and she absolutely, in no uncertain terms, refused to go and begged us not to go without her.

Since she is far more experienced than me (Europe, Australia, Japan, Soviet Union, Greece, South Africa & more "even" New Orleans - one of our best trips ever when she got to be onstage at the House of Blues playing as a guest guitarist for her favorite group!) if she wasn't comfortable even crossing the border then I'm not either. From what I hear it's a nice place to see/ visit (at last the touristy sections) but I doubt we'll ever do it now. May be our loss but I'm not going to upset my daughter just to say we did it. Plenty of other great places to visit - we'll never get to all of them anyway. Mexico won't be one.


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## mikenk

The problem on all these Mexico safety threads regarding tourist areas (including mine) is that they are really based on opinion, personal biases, isolated incidents, but rarely really on facts. Your daughter has her experiences; I also travel the world on business and my conclusions are quite different. We all make our own judgements and move on.

We all know Mexico has a drug cartel problem and high violence in those areas - no question. We also know that about 20 million tourists visit Mexico a year; that's the safety issue we really care about from a personal perspective. What is the crime rate against those 20 million and against the large number of Americans living across Mexico; more importantly, what is it in the tourist areas? My guess it is minuscule but I haven't seen real statistics. To me that is what is really important. Does anyone have a pointer to statistical data on this?

Certainly, regardless what the statistics say, people will still make their own choices based on whatever reasons; that is there prerogative, but it would be nice to see some real statistical data.

Mike


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## John Cummings

It is not possible to get meaningful data on crime in Mexico. The vast majority of crime goes unreported except for murder.


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## ondeadlin

As I've said before, the official crime stats compiled and released by the government of Mexico show it has violent and property crime rates below Ireland and Japan.

As John said, the stats are not meaningful at all.


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## John Cummings

This post is just so I will get the e-mail alert. When the thread was moved, I was no longer subscribed to this thread.


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## mikenk

I respectfully disagree. Any safety discussions not based on statistical data is just pure conjecture. I don't believe that crime against American (or other nation's) tourists will ever go unreported. Do I believe that crime against Mexican nationals could be unreported - sure, I believe that - but against U.S. citizens - doesn't make sense to me. 

I would like to see real data on how many tourists to Mexico were murdered in all of Mexico last year and then in each tourist city? Somebody has that data - my bet it is very, very small.

Mike


----------



## Karen G

mikenk said:


> I would like to see real data on how many tourists to Mexico were murdered in all of Mexico last year and then in each tourist city? Somebody has that data - my bet it is very, very small.


I posed the question on Ask.com asking about 2010. This is the answer I got, though the best answer, according to Ask.com, was for 2009 and only for Mazatlan.


----------



## beach.bar.bob

Karen G said:


> I posed the question on Ask.com asking about 2010. This is the answer I got, though the best answer, according to Ask.com, was for 2009 and only for Mazatlan.



Great link...

For a little levity at the expense of a clearly serious subject try this video clip I ran into while reviewing the Cabo sticky - from the Gringo Gazette TV website:
gringogazette.tv/allvideos/safety_in_mexico.html 

Note ... you will need to add www. in front of this link...I could only post a broken link for some reason. 

Safe travels. 

bbb


----------



## buceo

And thanks for that link bbb, just perfect.


----------



## John Cummings

mikenk said:


> I respectfully disagree. Any safety discussions not based on statistical data is just pure conjecture. I don't believe that crime against American (or other nation's) tourists will ever go unreported. Do I believe that crime against Mexican nationals could be unreported - sure, I believe that - but against U.S. citizens - doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> I would like to see real data on how many tourists to Mexico were murdered in all of Mexico last year and then in each tourist city? Somebody has that data - my bet it is very, very small.
> 
> Mike



I agree that a tourists chances of being murdered in Mexico is very unlikely. Yes, murder is reported. However, other crimes like robbery, assault, etc. are very seldom reported for either tourists or nationals. Tourists may report it but it never goes any farther and seldom is investigated. Therefore these crimes never go into the statistics. The Mexican Nationals know this so they don't even bother reporting it all.

This is not here-say. I have discussed this with many Mexican friends in law enforcement. My brother in law's compadre, who is a friend of mine, was the Attorney General of the state of Sinaloa. Mazatlan is in Sinaloa. He and others have told me that they simply don't pay attention to it. I have discussed this with many others in Cancun, La Paz, and other areas.

You can believe it if you want. It doesn't make any difference to me one way or the other.


----------



## ondeadlin

Karen G said:


> I posed the question on Ask.com asking about 2010. This is the answer I got, though the best answer, according to Ask.com, was for 2009 and only for Mazatlan.



Completely unsubstantiated stats from an anonymous poster calling himself "playa dude"?

Unfortunately, that's hardly something that could be considered a reliable answer.


----------



## mikenk

ondeadlin said:


> Unfortunately, that's hardly something that could be considered a reliable answer.



I agree until the data is validated - my guess it is pretty close and certainly seems a better answer to me than most of what i hear on this thread.


----------



## buceo

John Cummings said:


> You can believe it if you want. It doesn't make any difference to me one way or the other.



I think we all collect information from many sources.  First hand information from people we know who are there and our own experiences probably have the most influence.  What somebody tells somebody who doesn't go there themselves would play less of a role.  Please ask the Attorney General to post first hand what he thinks about visiting the resort areas in MX, that would be very interesting.

As to the "hardly something that could be considered a reliable" I think that was posted by a person living in Playa del Carmen and referenced a Houston Chronicle article.  That's not bad.


----------



## John Cummings

buceo said:


> I think we all collect information from many sources.  First hand information from people we know who are there and our own experiences probably have the most influence.  What somebody tells somebody who doesn't go there themselves would play less of a role.  Please ask the Attorney General to post first hand what he thinks about visiting the resort areas in MX, that would be very interesting.
> 
> As to the "hardly something that could be considered a reliable" I think that was posted by a person living in Playa del Carmen and referenced a Houston Chronicle article.  That's not bad.



I will definitely NOT ask him to past anything. Don't you understand that somebody in his position cannot publicize that information.

Other than murder, crimes that are reported just get tossed as soon as you walk out the door whether you are a tourist or not.

My relationship with Mexico is much different than the others posting on this forum. My relationship goes back some 47 years ago when my wife and I were married in Culiacán Sinaloa. My wife is Mexican and most of her family still lives there. I am very close to my wife's family. My wife now has dual Mexican/US citizenship. I met her brother in Mazatlan when I was visiting there and he invited me to their home in Culiacán where I met my wife. We were married a few months later and then lived there for 4 years. Mexico was very peaceful and safe then. By the way we are still very happily married after 47 years.

I am fluent in Spanish, worked in Vera Cruz Mexico, founded a business in Mexico, taught Mexican culture classes to people wanting to do business in Mexico, participated in the UCSD Mexico Connect program for doing business in Mexico. I have traveled over a lot of the country. Our son played semi-professional baseball in Mexico and was on the Mexican All Star teams that competed in the International Olympic Baseball Tournaments in La Paz and Jalisco in 1993 and 1994.

I know the former former Governor of Baja California very well as we did business together. I also know the former state attorney for Baja California Sur ( La Paz ) from our son playing baseball there. I also have many other Mexican friends in various positions. In the past few years the Mexican crime issue has been a common topic of conversation among us as the Mexicans are far more concerned about it than anybody posting on this forum. It affects their lives as well as the economy. Tourism is the 4th largest source of income after: money sent by Mexicans living in the US to their families in Mexico, Drug business, and Petroleum Exports. They obviously don't want any negative publicity about crime affecting tourism.

The drug cartels get all the publicity but actually crime started spiraling upward after the economic crisis in December 1994 when the peso was devalued 50% in 1 day. This was a terrible shock to the social fabric of the country.

We also have spent 20 weeks at timeshares in Cancun, Riviera Maya, Mazatlan, Puerto Vallarta, and Nuevo Vallarta. We have also visited Cabo San Lucas. Our most recent tourist trip was in 2009. We have also visited many times since then for family visits. When we are in Mexico, we only associate with the Mexican people. We have many friends that are Mexican tourists, Resort employees, and locals and the subject of crime is often discussed.

Sorry for the long bio but some people complain about people posting that don't have any experience with Mexico.

Institutionalized corruption has always been a problem in Mexico but it is much worse now because of the drug cartels. There is so much money involved and the cartels are terrorizing the police and politicians right up to the top.

Having said all this, people can choose to believe it or not. That is their prerogative. the chances are that nothing will happen as long as you don't go off exploring on your own in unfamiliar areas. Heck my son ended up in a pile of trouble in British Columbia Canada because he roamed by accident into an area controlled by the Drug cartels there.

I have been in downtown Detroit and East St, Louis and nothing happened to me so I suppose I can assume that they are safe. However we know that is not true.


----------



## mikenk

Since murders are recorded, then it would seem that the available data shows a minuscule number of murders of tourists and Americans.

John's point is that outside of capital crimes, there is very little reporting of general crime such as robbery and such; therefore data doesn't exist.  He validates that with his discussion with Mexican politicians. Well let's be honest, there is also a lot of petty thefts that go unreported I bet in the USA as well as politicians whose goals are to reduce crime but also keep the data hidden.

Well, we go to Mexico 3 or 4 times a year and frequently talk to Mexican Nationals and Americans living there as we love mingling with the locals - especially on Sunday evenings. They are not politicians just people who are open and engaging - I hear no indication of this crime wave in the cities we go to.

I also see very little, if any, traffic on all of these Mexico websites about escalating petty crime affecting them. We certainly have not seen any indication of it.

IMO, in the absence of real statistical data, this thread will go on forever based on opinions and here-say. That is fine as it gives everyone the right to judge for themselves without actually seeing for themselves.

Mike


----------



## ondeadlin

Well, if you want to decide murders are the most reliable statistic, that's clearly where Mexico suffers most. It is ranked 6th in murders-per-capita among 62 nations listed by nationmaster.com



> # 1    	Colombia:  	0.617847 per 1,000 people
> # 2   	South Africa: 	0.496008 per 1,000 people
> # 3   	Jamaica: 	0.324196 per 1,000 people
> # 4   	Venezuela: 	0.316138 per 1,000 people
> # 5   	Russia: 	0.201534 per 1,000 people
> # 6   	Mexico: 	0.130213 per 1,000 people



http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Personally, I'm still not sure I put any stock in the statistics. That's not to say I think they're higher or lower, just that I'm not sure they're reliable.


----------



## mikenk

My guess those are reliable but in my opinion the wrong statistics. The meaningful data would be murder and crime against tourists and Americans across Mexico and within the tourist areas. At 20 million folks a year visiting, that is plenty of people for statistical conclusions. 

Mike


----------



## John Cummings

mikenk said:


> Well let's be honest, there is also a lot of petty thefts that go unreported I bet in the USA as well as politicians whose goals are to reduce crime but also keep the data hidden.
> 
> Well, we go to Mexico 3 or 4 times a year and frequently talk to Mexican Nationals and Americans living there as we love mingling with the locals - especially on Sunday evenings. They are not politicians just people who are open and engaging - I hear no indication of this crime wave in the cities we go to.
> Mike



I am not talking about petty theft. I am talking about armed robbery, assaults, and other serious crimes.

Talking to Mexican Nationals and Americans living there mean nothing. Are you fluent in Spanish and are they friends of yours? They are not going to tell you what is really going on unless you know them very well, because like you, they have a vested interest. The people I talk to are very good friends of mine as well as talking with my relatives.

In any event it really doesn't matter to me if you want to be delusional. There is a very serious crime problem in Mexico.

You will be reasonably safe at the resorts.


----------



## John Cummings

ondeadlin said:


> Well, if you want to decide murders are the most reliable statistic, that's clearly where Mexico suffers most. It is ranked 6th in murders-per-capita among 62 nations listed by nationmaster.com
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
> 
> Personally, I'm still not sure I put any stock in the statistics. That's not to say I think they're higher or lower, just that I'm not sure they're reliable.



That is pretty interesting about Venezuela. I lived in Venezuela for 2 years from 1978-1980. I was the service and sales manager for a computer company there. Venezuela was pretty dangerous then but it appears to have gotten worse.


----------



## mikenk

John Cummings said:


> I am not talking about petty theft. I am talking about armed robbery, assaults, and other serious crimes.
> 
> Talking to Mexican Nationals and Americans living there mean nothing. Are you fluent in Spanish and are they friends of yours? They are not going to tell you what is really going on unless you know them very well, because like you, they have a vested interest. The people I talk to are very good friends of mine as well as talking with my relatives.
> 
> In any event it really doesn't matter to me if you want to be delusional. There is a very serious crime problem in Mexico.
> 
> You will be reasonably safe at the resorts.



I do not believe armed robbery and assaults against Americans will ever go unreported. If not there, certainly here. In fact will be sensationalized by our media. I think these crimes against Americans is very low - but again neither of us really has the data.

I also disagree and actually feel my sources are just as credible as yours as knowing what is really going. Actually, stating that talking to people living there means nothing is actually an amazing statement.

Thinking that walking around downtown Cabo is more dangerous then downtown parts of almost all American cities is hardly delusional.

Somehow, BBB's post #84 comes to mind at this point.

Just my opinion,
Mike


----------



## John Cummings

mikenk said:


> I do not believe armed robbery and assaults against Americans will ever go unreported. If not there, certainly here. In fact will be sensationalized by our media. I think these crimes against Americans is very low - but again neither of us really has the data.
> 
> I also disagree and actually feel my sources are just as credible as yours as knowing what is really going. Actually, stating that talking to people living there means nothing is actually an amazing statement.
> 
> Thinking that walking around downtown Cabo is more dangerous then downtown parts of almost all American cities is hardly delusional.
> 
> Somehow, BBB's post #84 comes to mind at this point.
> 
> Just my opinion,
> Mike



You are welcome to believe what you want. Cabo is an exception because it is isolated from the mainland. Like I said, you have a vested interest in Mexico  because you own there.

In any event, I am done with this discussion. There is nothing more to say. People can believe what they want. Ignorance is bliss.


----------



## buceo

It's perfectly reasonable to own a MX week and post on the MX board, that's what this board is for.  In my opinion that makes more sense than declaring one will never go to MX again and still post repeatedly post on this site.

Thank you for allowing us think what we want; yes that's sarcasm.

I won't even address the "ignorance" claim.


----------



## mikenk

John Cummings said:


> In any event, I am done with this discussion. There is nothing more to say. People can believe what they want. Ignorance is bliss.



I Absolutely agree with both statements, but probably not the way you meant it.

Just to clarify, my defense of Mexico has nothing to do that i own there: I love the people, the culture, and feel that they are maligned unfairly. The pure exuberance of joining the families on the malecon in Puerto Vallarta enjoying their day is great fun. I hate that people will not experience it because of unwarranted fears.

Mike


----------



## CatLovers

John Cummings said:


> Talking to Mexican Nationals and Americans living there mean nothing.





mikenk said:


> Actually, stating that talking to people living there means nothing is actually an amazing statement.



LOL.  Mike, we don't always agree but I must admit I see the irony.



John Cummings said:


> In any event it really doesn't matter to me if you want to be delusional. There is a very serious crime problem in Mexico.





John Cummings said:


> You are welcome to believe what you want. ...  There is nothing more to say. People can believe what they want. Ignorance is bliss.



Wow! That comes across as pretty condescending. Did you mean it that way?  Perhaps we can acknowledge that there are *several* people on TUG who are able to offer valid experience and insights about Mexico?


----------



## Liz Wolf-Spada

Last night on Rachel Maddow show she had a segment about Arizona pursuing a case against straw gun buyers who have been supplying AK47's in bulk to Mexican drug cartels. In the report she mentioned the figure of 15,000 people killed last year by drug cartels. It may not touch tourist areas, but that is a pretty alarming number.
Liz


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## mamiecarter

*How safe is Mexico?*

I have made several trips to Mexico city but all at least ten years ago. Never been to either coasts but am interested is visiting pre- Columbian ruins.

 Watching TV and seeing stories about kidnappers who specialize in kidnapping North Americans for large ransoms really scares me. Is this a real threat? are just some parts of Mexico afflicted with this sort of criminals?

Friends have told me I don't have enough money to worry about this and I don't look rich or dress expensively. I don't go out at night and don't go to bars or clubs when I travel. So anyone know how risky Mexico is right now?


----------



## dazzywilson

*Re: How safe is Mexico?*

I am also visiting Mexico this year in the coming July and I am also searching for the same reason that how much safe it is..I am on solo traveling and above that I am female..Do you have any idea how much safe it is for a female over there as a tourist? Should I take along some tourist guide or not? Please help I have already booked my tickets..Thanks in advance!


_advertising not permitted on this forum_


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## T_R_Oglodyte

On the Mexico board there is a running thread on safety of travel in Mexico.

Click here:   			 			Safety Of Travel In Mexico--put All Posts In This Thread

Mods: this thread should probably be closed with viewers redirected to the primary thread for info and posting.


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## x3 skier

Safer than Egypt right now.  

Agree with moving to the continuing discussion over Mexico.

Cheers


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## K&PFitz

I'll throw in my 2 cents on safety in Mexico.  We returned Saturday from eight days in Cancun.

During that time, we took the bus into Cancun Centro twice and walked all over.  We walked through residential and commercial areas.  We never felt unsafe, nor did we see anyone that looked like they might cause us any trouble.  

We also walked quite a bit in the hotel zone, including walking about a mile back to our resort after dinner.  We walked short distances after dark several times.  We never had a problem.

We took the city buses frequently.  Although they are often crowded, everyone was polite.  We also took the ferry to Isla Mujeres, and drove all over in a golf cart.

No one we talked to while there had any problems either. This is just our experience, but I'd go back to Mexico tomorrow if I had the money.


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## easyrider

Ther was 259 un-natural deaths of Americans in Mexico from 1-1-09 through 1-1-10.

There were aprox 83 Americans that died from homicide. Allmost all of these were in the nothern Mexico border states. 

http://www.travel.state.gov/law/family_issues/death/death_600.html?country=0

While it may be subjective to say that most of these homicides were drug related because of the locations of deaths, they most likely are.

Compared to the number of tourist that went to Mexico in the same time period it is reasonable to conclude that your very safe in resort towns of Mexico.


----------



## easyrider

*Baja safety article ( Baja Insider)*

http://www.bajainsider.com/baja-california-travel/mexico-travel-warning.htm


1017 people murdered in Florida in 2009. 

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/flcrime.htm


----------



## itchyfeet

We travel to Cabo and/or Puerto Vallarta every year.  We always rent a car and take side trips to other towns in the area.  We try not to drive out of the city after dark, not because of the "banditos" but because of free range cattle.  There is a lot of information available on the Trip Advisor forums for the areas in which you want to travel.  Some of the members that post actually live in the area and can give you first hand information. There is a also a Puerto Vallarta chat room in which many ex-pats who live in the area post the local info.  Google PV forums and you will find it.  We are seniors, do not spend all our time in the resort, and have never felt any threat whatsoever traveling in Mexico.


----------



## Tatwinc

*Come to Cancun*

Hi, I'm actually living in Cancún, México, ... What can i say ?, It's the Paradise, u can go the Downtown and stay there, or walk into the hotel zone, is really safe, and the people is very friendly with the Tourists, most of the people who lives here, works for the Tourism, so they get the money from the Tourism, don't worry to come to México, I you're planning to come to Cancún, you can ask me about what places you can go, for sure, there's ugly places, where you must don't go, But like i said, is really safe


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## TerriJ

Just got back from Cancun and had a great, safe trip.  Went to the island, swam with dolphins and rode the bus.  Great area and great people.


----------



## patty5ia

We have been in San Miguel de Allende for several weeks. We feel very safe here.  We are not targets of the drug cartels and we move about freely.  I feel more at risk on the highways of the US than I do here.  That said, every one has to be careful here.  The rules are different in Mexico.  There are risks everywhere, just different kinds of risk.  We all live our lives with risks.  I wouldn't want to give up my time here - the risks are too small!


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Just got back from a week in Puerto Vallarta.  Within the whole tourist area in Puerto Vallarta I felt safer there than in the main tourist areas in Seattle - for example, around Pike Place Market.

I was out on a tour with a guy from Toronto. He commented that he felt safer anyplace he was visiting in Puerto Vallarta then he did in Toronto.  

Far safer than being in Buckhead in Atlanta, where he had actually been mugged.

******

Can any of you imagine buses running through all neighborhoods of any major US city with a totally open cash box right next to the door to the bus??


----------



## LynnW

We spent 17 days in Mazatlan and always felt safe there. Many tourists walking around everywhere and taking buses which we did. Usually if we were out for dinner we took a taxi back to the resort. Just last weekend here in Calgary there were 2 stabbings and 1 shooting with 5 people being taken to the hospital as well as a home invasion robbery and this is not uncommon.

Lynn


----------



## siesta

*these stats are as recent as June 2010*

*Homicides*

"The national rate of homicides per year per 100,000 people usually average around 60 in El Salvador, 50 in South Africa, 32 in Jamaica, 25 in Brazil, 11 in Mexico, 6 in the United States, and less than 1 in Spain. Of course, there are great differences in different regions. Ciudad Juarez, on the other side of the El Paso, Texas border, is one of the most violent cities in the world, with a rate of about 123 homicides per year per 100,000 people. By comparison, the homicide rate is 87 in New Orleans, 73 in Gary, Indiana, 44 in Baltimore, and 42 in Detriot. It is 46 in our neighboring border city, Tijuana, a city which you are wise to avoid. However, in the Mexican state of Baja California Sur, where the primary cities are *Cabo San Lucas, San Jose Del Cabo, and La Paz, the rate is 4.7, which is pretty close to the rate of 4 here in San Diego*."


http://www.grimesandwarwick.com/law_and_order ; San Diego criminal defense attorneys


----------



## lgreenspan

*Puerto Vallarta is fine*

Just spent 2 weeks traveling all around Puerto Vallarta and Nuevo. Felt very safe the entire trip


----------



## Kauai Kid

*Spring Break Warnings*

"The Texas Department of Public Safety is urging Spring Breakers to avoid traveling to Mexico during spring break because of continued violence—and reminding boaters to stay on the U.S. side of Falcon Lake."


Austin American Statesman 3/2/11 http://www.statesman.com

To present a balanced review "Austin Cab driver robbed and throat cut"


Sterling


----------



## riverdees05

Right!  Thanks for the link to the article.


----------



## siesta

couldn't find the article on the OP's site, here it is on msnbc.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41853649/ns/travel-news/


----------



## Numismatist

Or Foxnews:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/02/28/dangers-lurk-spring-breaks-dangerous-destinations/


----------



## Kauai Kid

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/cont...spring_break_t.html?cxntfid=blogs_the_blotter


Pretty sure this link works.  Should have checked the first one.


sorry,


Sterling


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

gang murders up 60% in 2010.

you can make iraq comparisons.

any stats for 2011 yet?


----------



## ttt

buceo said:


> Unlikely Cancun is visited for its "Mexican feel" (if so you'll likely be disappointed). We go there for relatively low cost and  ease of access, great value for food & drink & lodging, the Caribbean & its beaches & it's a great stepping off point to see other parts of the Yucatan Peninsula (Mayan sites, cenotes, places like Merida etc).  The OP asked about "MX" that's a huge topic.  We just go to the Yucatan for a great vacation.


I agree, we just came back from 45 days in Playa Del Carmen and felt very safe. There are some great deals in all the restaurants and hotels due to all the bad publicity. Rental rates at the condo's are available for about 50% off the asking prices..


----------



## Karen G

*Carnival Cruise line has dropped Mazatlan as a port of call*

Here's the story.


----------



## siesta

Karen G said:


> Here's the story.


that's a shame. the city's tourism is already low for the establishments in town, this is just another blow.

on a lighter note, as I'm typing this I'm watching the sunset and thinking about how tomorrow I'll be looking at the same sunset from my balcony in beautiful Cabo San Lucas. Can't wait.


----------



## easyrider

Some people compare all areas of Mexico as if it were all the same. Mexico is ranked in the top 15 largest countries in the world. As with any large country there are some areas worse than others as far as crime is concerned. We travel to resort areas of Mexico and explore the areas each trip. Never had a problem with crime in Mexico. Below is part of a recent article from :
http://www.mexidata.info/id2980.html
_____________________________________________________________


"In addition to economic woes, Mexican tourist towns soon began facing a serious image problem due to media fallout from the so-called narco war. Worse yet, an increasing number of visitors from the US and Canada witnessed some act of violence somewhere in Mexico or heard about someone who did. The conventional wisdom in the tourism business is that for every bad rap, at least ten new tourists are lost from word-of-mouth.

Perhaps typical is a woman recently overhead in a New Mexico restaurant who told her companions that she used to travel to Mexico all the time but was avoiding the country for now. To an attentive table, she explained how the brother of a Mexican acquaintance was gunned down in a border town while eating in a restaurant — a presumed victim of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Many residents of Puerto Vallarta and Zihuatanejo, which have suffered little violence of late, protest they pay the price for sins committed elsewhere in their huge and diverse country. From their standpoint, it's almost as if a Mexican tourist would avoid traveling to San Francisco because of violence in Albuquerque.

"This really isn't a combat zone. We aren't in a war," Zihuatanejo resident Cortez insists. "People aren't being killed in the streets as they say."

Still, violence in many parts of the country, coupled with the now-routine travel advisories, keep grabbing the headlines in the US media."


----------



## suesam

Just returned from 4 days in Puebla, Mx visiting my son. Felt very safe the entire trip. Saw nothing even remotely scary. Ate some cow intestines and lips which about killed me but that was my sons fault! 

Sue


----------



## Joe L

*What AM I Missing*

I've read through all of the posts. Here is my two cents:

The violence is mostly at the border towns and involves those involved in the drug trade.

The tourist locations are basically safe. The post regarding the Mazatlan shootings did not involve tourists.

To say there is so much violence in Mexico, so stay away from Cancun, Cabo etc is like someone saying don't go to NYC because there are gangs in LA or visa versa. 

So much media hype and hysteria.


----------



## bjones9942

You can bet that the cruise lines are not canceling their Mazatlan stops because of violence (as stated, no cruise line passenger has been involved in violence).  More likely it is because of high port fees that they believe they can negotiate lower when passengers are stirred up about their safety.  If it really was about safety, the cruise lines would pull out of many ports of call (Acapulco, Belize, Jamaica, ...).

In the end, it all comes down to making a buck.


----------



## mygoldpaws

I just returned from Mayan Palace - Riviera Maya and felt very safe..  The federal police were all along the highway at all times.

Actually, felt so safe that I bought into Mayan Palace!!  Can't wait to go to Cabo property in October!


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Warning!!!!!!  If you're a baseball fan, stay away from California.

*Santa Cruz man critical after beating at Dodger Stadium*


----------



## DebBrown

Joe L said:


> The tourist locations are basically safe. The post regarding the Mazatlan shootings did not involve tourists.



I'm sorry for belaboring the point but saying the shootings don't involve tourists is just wrong.  The week we were in Mazatlan in January, there were 2 shootings.  One at a popular shopping center and one in front on the American consulate.  We were leaving on a tour just a short time after the consulate shooting and saw the boarded up building and crime scene tape.

No, a tourist was not shot.  BUT, I sure didn't want to see a man's tortured body dumped on the street and executed during my vacation.

Deb


----------



## malago

*Puerto Vallarta Safety Travel*

Any updates on safety travel to Mexico......going in April to Puerto Vallarta


----------



## KarenLK

I was there Jan-Feb and saw absolutely nothing, except the timeshare sharks.


----------



## malago

*PV Safety*

Thank you for your reply.   That give me a good feeling


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

malago said:


> Thank you for your reply.   That give me a good feeling


I was there in February and I felt safer in the tourist areas of PV than I do walking around Pioneer Square and Seattle Center (Space Needle) in Seattle.


----------



## Jane

*just returned from Puerta Vallarta*

We just returned from a fabulous 2 weeks in PV and NV. We took the bus from Nuevo to PV and went to the Malacon and up and down streets in PV. Friends came and drove us all around went to some very out of the way Mexican villages and to Punta de Mita and Rincon de Guayabitos. We asked how safe things were at our resort and found no problems. Many Canadian and US people that live there, would help us if we needed direction. We met many Mexican people that would help us with directions and were always so friendly. We were initially nervous about going to Mexico 4 years ago. We were really suprised at how much we loved it and the people are wonderful. So much we bought there. In all honesty at no time did we feel unsafe. We did not walk the beach in the dark and we got a cab from the restaurants in the evening. We do not go up and down unknown streets in the night and early AM. Basic common sense needs to prevail. The sad part is that there is so much bad press that it does hurt the economy in places like NV and PV. We listened to that bad press to but traded into Mexico and are we ever glad we did. There are problems here as everywhere and we do need to be wise in our decisions no matter where we go.


----------



## pammex

malago.....I was in PV and NV in Jan. for 2 weeks then again in Feb. for two weeks.  We also were all over the area in car as we drove fromn the Guadaljara area to there.  ( about 5 hours drive).  No problems just a bigger police presence noted.  I am here in mexico now for that matter in Lake Chapala area.  Of course like anywhere there is crime but have I seen any, no.  
Enjoy your trip to PV...the only issue I would have with going there in April would be in going the week before, week of and week after Easter, biggest holidays in Mexico and the beaches will be crowded sohope you like crowds, which of course can be fun if not driving....enjoy!


----------



## ocean401

suesam said:


> Just returned from 4 days in Puebla, Mx visiting my son. Felt very safe the entire trip. Saw nothing even remotely scary. Ate some cow intestines and lips which about killed me but that was my sons fault!
> 
> Sue



About 10 years ago I spent a summer studying spanish in Puebla, Mexico.  And I agree that by and large it was safe but there were issues.  My teacher told a story of her son having been kidnapped for ransom.  Mexico, even the safer locations, is not suburban USA....


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

*British Tourists Ambushed and Murdered in Florida - Gang Initiation*

I guess we should add Florida to the list of places that TUGgers should avoid.


----------



## easyrider

Washington State should be added as well. Yakima County has had weekly drive by shootings for the last few years. 2011 is shaping up to be on par with last year.

No problems in the southern Baja region on our last trip to Cabo. We were all over at all hours.


----------



## PigsDad

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I guess we should add Florida to the list of places that TUGgers should avoid.





easyrider said:


> Washington State should be added as well.


Actually, if we use the same scare tactics used by the media and the uninformed, we should be advising everyone to avoid the whole USA because of these incidents in certain parts of the country.  

Kurt


----------



## ampaholic

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> *British Tourists Ambushed and Murdered in Florida - Gang Initiation*
> 
> I guess we should add Florida to the list of places that TUGgers should avoid.



And South Africa:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/201...ocodiles-police-divers-river-with-two-friends

Wait - crocs not gangs - does that count?


----------



## ada903

Kudos to this article:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/05/06/opinion.mexico.travel/index.html?hpt=Sbin


----------



## Catira

ada903 said:


> Kudos to this article:
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/05/06/opinion.mexico.travel/index.html?hpt=Sbin



Thank you for the article link.  We will be traveling to the Grand Mayan Riviera Maya this June.  I can't remember how many negative comments I hear from people when they hear where we are going. We usually go once a year to the Riviera Maya and if we could stay for a month we would. So many things to do that we never get bored of this area.


----------



## John Cummings

Catira said:


> Thank you for the article link.  We will be traveling to the Grand Mayan Riviera Maya this June.  I can't remember how many negative comments I hear from people when they hear where we are going. We usually go once a year to the Riviera Maya and if we could stay for a month we would. So many things to do that we never get bored of this area.



Isn't most of the negativity directed toward the Grupo Mayan resorts and not the Riviera Maya? We have spent many many weeks at the Grand Mayan - Riviera Maya on exchanges. We have been all over Mexico but the Grand Mayan - Riviera Maya is our favorite resort of all and we love the cultural attractions in the area like Xcaret.


----------



## easyrider

ada903 said:


> Kudos to this article:
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/05/06/opinion.mexico.travel/index.html?hpt=Sbin



Very nice and very true article. 

_deleted personal arguments w/another poster_

The negativity about a vacation in Mexico starts in the media and ends with misconceptions that create doubt or fear in a travelers mind causing anxiety about traveling anywhere in Mexico.

The negative posts on the Grand Mayans are for the most part about attending a presentation or buying a week from the developer.


----------



## Archie583

Just came back from Puerto Vallarta after spending 4 months in the area.
Very safe, no problems at all. People are very friendly and helpful. So good that we even bought a condo in old town.


----------



## pittle

Archie583 said:


> Just came back from Puerto Vallarta after spending 4 months in the area.
> Very safe, no problems at all. People are very friendly and helpful. So good that we even bought a condo in old town.



AWESOME!!!!!


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Need to add Tenerife to the list of sites that are unsafe for tourists:

British tourist decapitated in Tenerife (gruesome story alert)


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Also, stay away from Texas: One Killing per Day in Dallas


----------



## suesam

Well.....my son is home from 4.5 months of study abroad. He lived in Puebla and did some traveling to Mexico City, Merida, the Yucatan, and Veracruz. I told him last night that I wanted to report on TUG whether he thought Mexico was dangerous or not. He said definitely dangerous. This makes me so sad!! He has told me he  will only give me the particulars a little at a time because he does not want me to freak out. Hmmmmm. The one story he has shared is of another study abroad student he knows who went to Puerta Vallarta for a weekend and was mugged by gun point by a POLICEMAN. At 11:00 at night the cop put a gun to this kids head and made him take all of his money out of an ATM machine. Very scary. 

Makes me so sad. I love Mexico. We have been there 6 times in the last 4 years and now I am not sure I want to return. 
Sue


----------



## Cathyb

*suesam*



suesam said:


> Well.....my son is home from 4.5 months of study abroad. He lived in Puebla and did some traveling to Mexico City, Merida, the Yucatan, and Veracruz. I told him last night that I wanted to report on TUG whether he thought Mexico was dangerous or not. He said definitely dangerous. This makes me so sad!! He has told me he  will only give me the particulars a little at a time because he does not want me to freak out. Hmmmmm. The one story he has shared is of another study abroad student he knows who went to Puerta Vallarta for a weekend and was mugged by gun point by a POLICEMAN. At 11:00 at night the cop put a gun to this kids head and made him take all of his money out of an ATM machine. Very scary.
> 
> Makes me so sad. I love Mexico. We have been there 6 times in the last 4 years and now I am not sure I want to return.
> Sue



Please -- as you hear these stories -- share here on TUG.  Those who love Mexico (and we used to) tend to minimize the news we hear and not know some things that never made the news.  Our local Visitor's Bureau will not recommend visiting Tiajuana anymore because of the 'unknown'.


----------



## x3 skier

suesam said:


> The one story he has shared is of another study abroad student he knows who went to Puerta Vallarta for a weekend and was mugged by gun point by a POLICEMAN. At 11:00 at night the cop put a gun to this kids head and made him take all of his money out of an ATM machine. Very scary.



Wonder if it was an actual Policeman or someone posing as a Policeman. Also I would like to know what part of town this happened since it was 2300.

Not at all doubting the report, but I would just like to know some more about it to see if it was anywhere near places I visit on trips.

Cheers


----------



## ptprism

*PV Today*

I just returned from three weeks in PV. I was also there in Feb for two weeks for whale watching. We sat at the Cheeky Monkey on the Malecon drinking $1beers and watching the whales jump in the Bay. 

Right now (last two weeks of May) is Restaurant Week and you can enjoy some of the most wonderful gourmet food for a pittance compared to what an
everyday lunch would cost in almost any American city--forget about a dinner! And the wine selection is as good as any major metropolitan area--just cheaper.

I could go on and on. The main thing to know is that if you are afraid  to go to PV because of the violence and crime in Mexico you are depriving yourself of a wonderful vacation experience.

I live in Naples, FL and I feel MUCH safer in PV that I ever do when I go to Miami or the east coast of south Florida. The people who are afraid to go to PV should stay home and go to safe places like Miami, Detroit, Los Angeles, etc. Not only will you feel safe, but you can also pay though the nose for rude treatment.

Mexico is more than Cancun and Tijuana. Just as the US is more than Newark and Watts.  Don't deprive yourself of the joys of visiting this beautiful and exciting country. (But not during the summer, of course...)


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

I have no doubt that for a US citizen, just traveling around in various parts of Mexico, is generally at greater risk of crime than the same person would be doing the same kind of traveling inside the US.

But like all generalities, the specifics can be quite different.  As the killings of the British tourists I linked to above show, if you wander into the wrong neighborhood in the US you can easily get killed.  Just the same as in Mexico.  

But as has been said over and over and over, by those who visit Mexico regularly, the principal tourist areas are at least as safe as almost any principal tourist area in the US.


----------



## Ridewithme38

suesam said:


> The one story he has shared is of another study abroad student he knows who went to Puerta Vallarta for a weekend and was mugged by gun point by a POLICEMAN. At 11:00 at night the cop put a gun to this kids head and made him take all of his money out of an ATM machine. Very scary.
> 
> Sue



When i've dealt with police in mexico, mostly during spring breaks from college...i'd find that they were VERY accepting of tips to the point where they'd just go out and tell you how much your action would cost in a pay-off...i'm surprised the Mexican police would have to hold someone at gun point...handcuffs and a threat of Mexican prison had me and my friends hand over hundreds of dollars...but we were mostly 18-20yr old kids over drinking and generally causing mayham


----------



## suesam

He did happen to say this morning that he and a friend were pulled over for a traffic violation and had to pay a bribe to get out of it. 

He is not sure where the friend was in Puerta Vallarta. He is sure it was near a bar area.
He said what he found  most unsettling was the dishonesty of the police. I guess something we expect, at least where we live, is the honesty of most, and I am saying most, not ALL authority figures such as law enforcement officials. 

Sue


----------



## Passepartout

Mordida- 'little bite' has been a way of life in Mexico since I began going there over 40 years ago. A relatively small payment to the cop over some infraction. It seems to have escalated- especially in tourist areas in recent times. There was a series of messages (perhaps n this thread) about tourists being shaken down just outside the Golden Zone N. of Mazatlan at a phony roadblock until they were turned in to the real police chief by the G.M of Pueblo Bonito Emerald Bay (iirc).

I truly hope the government of Mexico can get a grip on the drug rings and on petty crime against foreigners in their country. No good will come of their looking away and denying it. 

I have felt safe in the tourist areas of Mexico, but if you can't turn to the police- because they are the perps, you are at the mercy of those who have nothing to gain by showing mercy.

Jim


----------



## STEVIE

*Be careful with money*

Just wanted to share with you all, so you can be careful not to lose money when traveling. Friends of ours just returned from Mexico. They traded into the sheraton in Cabo. They loved the resort and had beautiful weather. They rented a car and when they went to the gas station the attendant said they did not take credit cards. They then gave the attendant a one hundred dollar bill to pay for their gas and the attendant slipped the bill in his pocket. When they asked for their change the attendant said they had given him only a ten dollar bill and refused to show them the bill they used as payment. They didn't argue and left, ripped off of about $80.00.  Sue


----------



## dougp26364

Just one more reason we don't travel to Mexico. Beautiful country/beaches but, it's government just can't get a handle on the crime. It's just not safe anymore.


----------



## PigsDad

dougp26364 said:


> Just one more reason we don't travel to Mexico. Beautiful country/beaches but, it's government just can't get a handle on the crime. It's just not safe anymore.


Good greif -- not this nonsense again.  :deadhorse:

I've been to Mexico several times without a single problem.  However, the last _two times _I've been to Europe, two punk teens attemped to pick pocket me in the Paris subway once, and a group of ladies (with a baby!) successfully pick pocketed me (from a front, _buttoned _pocket!) while boarding a train in Rome the other time.

I guess I should make it my mission to warn all people about to travel to Europe, because they "just can't get a handle on the crime".   

Kurt


----------



## STEVIE

You don't need to be sarcastic. I thought this was a forum of sharing information and helping each other out. I'm glad you have never had a problem in Mexico but there are alot of others that have. I'm sure you have read the newspapers and listened to the news about how tourists are robbed, raped and even killed. Once out of the country, there is little a family member can do to help. Of course this can happen anywhere, but I'm only trying to help those traveling to be more careful by giving an actual example of something that recently happened. I find your remarks insulting. Sue


----------



## Egret1986

*I have no plans to travel to Mexico, but I believe this was very helpful information.*



susgar said:


> You don't need to be sarcastic. I thought this was a forum of sharing information and helping each other out. I'm glad you have never had a problem in Mexico but there are alot of others that have. I'm sure you have read the newspapers and listened to the news about how tourists are robbed, raped and even killed. Once out of the country, there is little a family member can do to help. Of course this can happen anywhere, but I'm only trying to help those traveling to be more careful by giving an actual example of something that recently happened. I find your remarks insulting. Sue


KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!  I'm not worldly; never been out of the country, except a couple of times to the Caribbean and twice to Tijuana.  I'll just say that we have been very "lucky" in some of our travels (in and out of the Country).  

This is good information.  Kurt may be a world traveler and very "aware".  Some of us just don't take these things into consideration because we don't have "experience" or "awareness".  

Thank you for posting.


----------



## Egret1986

*Thank you, Kurt, for providing info on pick-pockets in Europe*



PigsDad said:


> Good greif -- not this nonsense again.  :deadhorse:
> 
> I've been to Mexico several times without a single problem.  However, the last _two times _I've been to Europe, two punk teens attemped to pick pocket me in the Paris subway once, and a group of ladies (with a baby!) successfully pick pocketed me (from a front, _buttoned _pocket!) while boarding a train in Rome the other time.
> 
> I guess I should make it my mission to warn all people about to travel to Europe, because they "just can't get a handle on the crime".
> 
> Kurt



It's not "beating a dead horse."  Some of us are naive to the "goings-on" in other countries.  That makes us prime candidates to be taken advantage of or worse.  Hopefully, I'll remember your post if and when I travel to Europe and be more careful.  It may not thwart them, but at least I'll be aware to take precautions in this area.  

Thank you for reminding TUGGERs that there are pick pockets in Europe, and I'm sure anywhere.  Never too much reminding, as far as I'm concerned.  I've been a "stupid" tourist in the past and your little posting may help me to do better in the future.  Likewise, I believe the posting about Mexico is very useful information also and I am personally thankful for it even though I currently have no future plans to travel to Mexico.


----------



## Conan

The OP only posted useful information.  I'm already aware that employees of the national monopoly, Pemex, have been known to cheat.  The more common trick is to not reset the meter to zero, so you end up paying for your own gas plus the amount that the last user purchased.  I'm vigilant at Pemex - - getting out of the car and standing with the attendant to be sure the meter was zeroed out, and paying with exact change.

It's the second post that's out-of-line, with the usual gratuitous insult to a whole nation/race of people.


----------



## ronparise

Why do you single out mexico. i spent a month in New York once training at my company headquarters. I was part of a class of over 100 new employees from all over the country. At an orientation meeting we were told that if someone on the street offered you a Rolex watch for $50 it probably wasnt really a Rolex. It was probably a fake. We were also advised that if a young lady on the street in a short skirt was flirting with us, and inviting us to a party, she might not really find us attractive and charming. she might just see us as a mark.

I work with Europeans and Canadians on a regular basis. and recently with a guy from the Middle East. They come to Florida having been warned about the criminal element here, just like you are warning us about mexico

your advice is good advice for anyone anywhere, whether traveling or not. There are bad guys everywhere, but I firmly believe that most folks are good and honest and want to show off their home and welcome us to it


----------



## dougp26364

PigsDad said:


> Good greif -- not this nonsense again.  :deadhorse:
> 
> I've been to Mexico several times without a single problem.  However, the last _two times _I've been to Europe, two punk teens attemped to pick pocket me in the Paris subway once, and a group of ladies (with a baby!) successfully pick pocketed me (from a front, _buttoned _pocket!) while boarding a train in Rome the other time.
> 
> I guess I should make it my mission to warn all people about to travel to Europe, because they "just can't get a handle on the crime".
> 
> Kurt




There's issues in America as well but, I don't see the police driving around with automatic weapons. I also don't read of kidnappings of tourist with ransom demands or tourists being shot off their jet ski's and a government that provides no help in finding the killers. 

Having an in-law with a house in Mexico who relates stories about why she won't go to the federalies (sp?) when there's a problem is good enough for me. 

BTW, do you think in Europe you'll have issues getting change for gas? I don't think so!

FWIW, I do spend time warning travelers about pick pockets in Europe. Although it hasn't happened to me personally, I do know people who have lost money to the pick pockets. 

Mexico, on the other hand, provides little to no relief should there be a problem. Who are you going to turn to in Mexico should there be a problem?

From the travel advisory from Mexico:



> The Mexican government has deployed federal police and military personnel throughout the country as part of its efforts to combat the TCOs. U.S. citizens traveling on Mexican roads and highways may encounter government checkpoints, which are often staffed by military personnel. You are advised to cooperate with personnel at government checkpoints and mobile military patrols.
> 
> *Violence along Mexican roads and highways is a particular concern in the northern border region. As a result, effective July 15, 2010, the U.S. Mission in Mexico imposed restrictions on U.S. government employees' travel. U.S. government employees and their families are not permitted to drive from the U.S.-Mexico border to or from the interior of Mexico or Central America.* Travel by vehicle is permitted between Hermosillo and Nogales.
> 
> While violent incidents have occurred at all hours of the day and night on both modern toll ("cuotas") highways and on secondary roads, they have occurred most frequently at night and on isolated roads. To reduce risk, you are strongly urged to travel only during daylight hours throughout Mexico, to avoid isolated roads, and to use toll roads whenever possible. For more information on road safety and crime along Mexico's roadways, see the Department of State's Country Specific Information.



Sounds real safe when governemt employee's are forbiden from driving in certain areas. I think I'll risk the pick-pockets!

And here is a list of the current travel advisory's. Interestingly enough, there are NO European countries listed. 



> Yemen   05/25/2011
> Syria    04/25/2011
> Uzbekistan    04/25/2011
> Mexico    04/22/2011
> Burkina Faso    04/19/2011
> Nigeria    04/15/2011
> Cote d'Ivoire   04/14/2011
> Iraq    04/12/2011
> Lebanon    04/04/2011
> Algeria    03/16/2011
> Mauritania    03/11/2011
> Afghanistan    03/08/2011
> Mali    03/02/2011
> Eritrea    02/27/2011
> Libya    02/25/2011
> Pakistan    02/02/2011
> Haiti    01/20/2011
> Central African Republic    01/14/2011
> Niger    01/12/2011
> Nepal    01/12/2011
> Sudan    01/07/2011
> Kenya    12/28/2010
> Somalia    12/27/2010
> Saudi Arabia   12/23/2010
> Chad    12/08/2010
> Guinea    12/03/2010
> Congo, Democratic Republic of the    11/25/2010
> Colombia    11/10/2010
> Burundi    11/04/2010
> Philippines    11/02/2010
> Iran    10/08/2010
> Korea, Democratic People's Republic of    08/27/2010
> Israel, the West Bank and Gaza    08/10/2010


----------



## PigsDad

dougp26364 said:


> And here is a list of the current travel advisory's. Interestingly enough, there are NO European countries listed.


Oh, yeah -- like that list is _not _politically motivated.  Give me a break!

Hey, I'm glad you don't travel to Mexico -- just makes it less crowded for me!  

Kurt


----------



## PigsDad

BTW, the :deadhorse: emoticon was not because of the scam information.  That type of information is always useful.

It was for the constant "don't travel to any part of Mexico, because certain regions are having issues" nonsense that is often posted here (mostly in the Mexico forum).  Sorry if you took it as an attack on the OP.

Kurt


----------



## PigsDad

Conan said:


> It's the second post that's out-of-line, *with the usual gratuitous insult to a whole nation/race of people.*


Exactly!   

Kurt


----------



## dougp26364

I stand by my statement and, I believe the state department's travel advisory for Mexico holds up my opinion. Of all the countries to travel to right now, Mexico is among the least safe places to go. 

There is no intent to insult anyone, any nation or any particular race of people. When one needs to pull the political correct card out, then as far as I'm concerned, the discussion is over. I'll now quitely sign off this thread and allow the bashing of my opinion to continue. :ignore:


----------



## heathpack

susgar said:


> You don't need to be sarcastic. I thought this was a forum of sharing information and helping each other out. I'm glad you have never had a problem in Mexico but there are alot of others that have. I'm sure you have read the newspapers and listened to the news about how tourists are robbed, raped and even killed. Once out of the country, there is little a family member can do to help. Of course this can happen anywhere, but I'm only trying to help those traveling to be more careful by giving an actual example of something that recently happened. I find your remarks insulting. Sue



Sue, this has nothing to do with you.  I think everybody welcomes a post like this about a specific incident that someone you know experienced.

If you follow things on the Mexico boards, there were people who would post very sweeping arguments against any travel at all to Mexico based not on personal experience but on news reports and travel advisories- I am not trying to argue for/against Mexico travel, just let you know the context.  That type of conversation started to dominate the Mexico board and the same arguments were repeated over and over, to the point where they ceased to be helpful to anyone- they became "beating a dead horse."  It was such a problem that all the posts on the dangers of travel in Mexico now need to be posted in a seperate sticky so that there is actually a place for people interested in TSing in Mexico to discuss that subject.

So that is why you saw some of the responses that you did- PP were replying to Doug's posts, not yours.

H


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

*Gunfire, drive-by shootings in Miami Beach*

Police, gunmen open fire on South Beach; two officers injured


video: Miami Beach shooting - Memorial Day weekend 2011


----------



## Passepartout

Here's an article about the 10 most dangerous cities in the USA. How many of us live in or visit these places? 
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43158...own-these-cities-are-still-dangerous/43192343
10. Stockton, CA
9. Rockford, IL
8. Baltimore, MD
7. Little Rock, AR
6. Oakland, CA
5. Memphis, TN
4. New Haven, CT
3. St. Louis, MO
2. Detroit, MI
1. Flint, MI

Jim Ricks


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

*Myrtle Beach more dangerous than Puerto Vallarta??*

I've never heard of anything like this going on over one weekend along the Malecon.


> According to Captain David Knipes with the Myrtle Beach Police Department, one violent crime report came in early Saturday morning and Sunday morning there were five other reports of violent crime as well as numerous incidents reported Monday morning.
> 
> At 3:00 a.m. Saturday, police were told that a man was robbed at gun point on 11th Avenue South past Oak Street. Two men with semi-automatic pistols were reported to have held up a man, taking $40 and jewelry.
> …
> At 4:25 a.m. Sunday, authorities arrived to the scene of 3201 North Kings Highway in Myrtle Beach where a woman reported that she and her three male friends were robbed and carjacked at gunpoint behind the Bargain Beachwear by four Black males.
> …
> At 4:30 a.m. Sunday, a man and his wife were riding back to their motel when they stopped at a stop sign and were assaulted and robbed on Yaupon Avenue between 13th and 17th Avenue South.  The man reported being stabbed in his side and his necklace taken.  EMS was called when he returned to the motel.  No suspect could be identified due to the large number of people around at the time
> .…
> Myrtle Beach Police are also investigating two people in area hospitals that came in with gunshot wounds.  A person treated at Grand Strand Regional and a patient at Waccamaw Hospital both reported being injured in the area of 9th Avenue and Ocean Boulevard.  Neither person knew the other, nor did they know who fired the shot or why.
> …
> At 9:30 p.m. Sunday, three people coming out the Bar Harbor Motel in Myrtle Beach notified police that they were robbed at gunpoint by three Black males.  The victims told police the subjects were in one of the rooms.
> …
> At 11:36 p.m. Sunday, a White woman approached a security employee at Family Kingdom and claimed she was raped by several Black males.  Shortly after being told to call the police, the security worker said he witnessed the same woman with a White man approach the victims.  The man pointed a shotgun at the victims.  The victims fled and declined further police involvement.
> …
> Between 2:30 and 3 a.m. Monday, Myrtle Beach Police responded to an armed robbery call on Yaupon Drive between 12th and 13th Avenue South.  The victim claims he and his friend were robbed at gunpoint by two Black males wearing all black clothing with bandanas over their faces.  Approximately $40 and jewelry was reportedly taken.
> …
> Just after 3:15 a.m., Myrtle Beach Police responded to an armed robbery that occurred at Mr. Joe White Avenue and Chester Street.  One officer saw two possible suspects, which led to a foot chase resulting in two arrests.  The victim positively identified the two subjects as involved in the robbery.  A K-9 unit was able to produce a discarded pistol that matched the one allegedly used in the robbery. Both suspects deny involvement in the robbery.
> …
> At around 4 a.m. Monday at the beach access of 26th Avenue South.  People told police they were robbed at gunpoint by two Black males, who took money and jewelry and took off on foot.  No further description was given besides one wearing a white shirt, and one was wearing a black shirt.
> …
> Just before 4:30 Monday morning, a taxi driver for Beachside Cab said he was sleeping in his van at the Greyhound bus station on 7th Avenue North when two subjects hit him and demanded money.  They then allegedly pointed a handgun at the taxi driver and threatened him. The victim gave the subjects over $300 before being hit again.


----------



## burg1121

dougp26364 said:


> I stand by my statement and, I believe the state department's travel advisory for Mexico holds up my opinion. Of all the countries to travel to right now, Mexico is among the least safe places to go.
> 
> There is no intent to insult anyone, any nation or any particular race of people. When one needs to pull the political correct card out, then as far as I'm concerned, the discussion is over. I'll now quitely sign off this thread and allow the bashing of my opinion to continue. :ignore:



While the list is interesting I would believe if you take the problems near the boarder out of the equation they wouldn't be on the list. The tourist areas are not the problem as we all know. As for driving in Mexico not something I do why deal with the police if you don't have to. Your on vacation eat, drink, relax and let someone else drive you.


----------



## Craig711

burg1121 said:


> While the list is interesting I would believe if you take the problems near the boarder out of the equation they wouldn't be on the list. The tourist areas are not the problem as we all know.



A sensible statement. I agree.

There is no question that some parts of Mexico are very dangerous, especially in some of the border cities such as Ciudad Juarez and Tijuana. And there is no question that some areas of nearly any city are dangerous-- TIP: don't go into those areas.

I lived in Mexico for several years, in various resort areas, and never had any serious problems. Yeah, corruption is rampant, but so is generosity, kindness and laughter. 

Yeah, around Christmas time the cops get real dutiful about issuing tickets (I once got a ticket for "wild parking"), hoping for a bit of mordida to help buy presents for the kids (the cops are very poorly paid, which is part of the problem). It was a running joke every year. 

But there was also the time in PV when the cops pulled up to a popular local bar, disgorged an extremely drunk young Canadian from their vehicle, pointed him in the general direction of the bar and when he couldn't make it up the steps they helped him-- laughing and shaking their heads.

Or the time when my car broke down just outside of town in Cabo, and a local cop called a repair shop for me and stuck around until they got to me. (He probably got a kick back, but hey! It only cost me $35 for the fix, and he didn't _have_ to stick around...) 

A couple of decades ago there was a case where gunmen barged into a PV restaurant and opened fire on someone dining in there, several people were killed/wounded and it made headlines in US papers. (It was a drug related thing even way back then) My mom called me, all in a panic, to make sure I was alright. Well, yeah, I was fine: I was living in _Cozumel_ at the time, clear across the country from the scene of the crime in _Vallarta_. But I could not convince her, bless her heart, that I was perfectly safe, in no danger at all. To her mind a murder in Vallarta meant that all of Mexico was unsafe and I ought to come home RIGHT THIS MINUTE.

That's kind of what's happening now. Very scary dangerous things happening in various parts of the country are preventing people from visiting the majority of destinations that are as safe as any tourist destination in the USA. It's very unfortunate.

As travelers we all need to keep our wits about us when visiting foreign destinations, not leave our brains at the border so to speak.

But please don't extrapolate from travel warnings about specific areas of Mexico that the entire country is a war zone. Learning a little geography can be a good thing. 

Flint and Detroit are not particularly safe these days, but that doesn't stop me from going to Santa Fe or Miami Beach (even though there are some seriously dangerous places in Miami). Just sayin'...

Sorry for the long post...


----------



## Ridewithme38

Intelligent, well thought out posts like above are the reason i joined TUG!


----------



## Carol C

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> *Myrtle Beach more dangerous than Puerto Vallarta??*
> 
> I've never heard of anything like this going on over one weekend along the Malecon.



Yikes! I just went to Myrtle Beach alone and am glad I survived. And it was Biker Week too...glad I didn't get run over! (But traffic was a mess...and sooo slow cause bikers on Harleys tend to go under the speed limit so they won't get hassled by cops.)

Speaking of traffic...and traffic accidents...a large percentage of deaths of tourists in Mexico are due to traffic fatalities. Same with Jamaica btw. Lots of tourists rent scooters for example, and they drink too much, and they don't know the lay of the land...and sometimes they make fatal errors in judgement while driving scooters (and rental cars too). 

A few links will give you some statistics. A couple of good websites are
http://www.cancunissafe.com/cancun-news/how-safe-is-travel-in-mexico/ and www.hiddencancun.com that even has these stats: http://www.hiddencancun.com/2011/05/...-for-tourists/


----------



## aliikai2

*I sure wish those that will never travel to Mexico*

Would please quit their campaign of disinformation. I just don't understand what motivates you when you clearly have no interest in Mexico to continue to post these inflammatory articles???  

We will be in NV in less than 2 weeks. We are privileged to have been invited to attend our friends youngest daughters dedication in her Church on Sunday the 19th, and then the fiesta for both her daughters birthdays.
     I meet Dulce when she was working at Cornerstone Hospital in March 2010 when Joyce was in ICU, she was so helpful, that I am very happy that she considers us her friends, enough so to invite us to these family traditions.
    I really enjoy Mexico, the people and the country. Is it perfect, no, is their corruption? Yes, as there is any where including where you live. 

fwiw,

Greg  




dougp26364 said:


> Just one more reason we don't travel to Mexico. Beautiful country/beaches but, it's government just can't get a handle on the crime. It's just not safe anymore.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

dougp26364 said:


> Just one more reason we don't travel to Mexico. Beautiful country/beaches but, it's government just can't get a handle on the crime. It's just not safe anymore.



I've enjoyed my visits to California in the past.  But, when I read about the murders and drugs and violence in east LA and places like Compton, I just can't help but feel beautiful country/beaches but the government just can't get a handle on the crime and it's not safe anymore.  [/sarcasm]


----------



## Carol C

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I've enjoyed my visits to California in the past.  But, when I read about the murders and drugs and violence in east LA and places like Compton, I just can't help but feel beautiful country/beaches but the government just can't get a handle on the crime and it's not safe anymore.  [/sarcasm]



Good comparison!


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Violent Flash Mobs on Lakeshore Avenue in Chicago; Police Department struggling to maintain control


> Acting Police Supt. Garry McCarthy vowed Monday to hunt down every last thug responsible for so-called “flash mob” incidents over the weekend and throw the book at them to get a handle on a problem that’s damaging the reputation of downtown Chicago as a safe place to live, work, play and shop.
> 
> Speaking as five teens made their first appearances in court in connection with a string of five robberies — four within a ten-minute span — in Streeterville Saturday, McCarthy said police had made “in excess of 20 arrests” connected to flash mobs over the weekend.
> 
> During a break at his City Council confirmation hearing, McCarthy pointed to the arrests as proof there are enough police officers downtown, that the department’s strategy is working and that shoppers, employees and residents have nothing to fear from the large groups of teens who use violence and sheer numbers to intimidate and confuse.


----------



## Passepartout

*Time to say adios to Mexico travel?- from MSNBC*

Here's a discussion on the current safety situation regarding travel to Mexico, including State Dept., Texas State warnings, cruise line's not stopping at Mexican ports.

Included are recommendations to avoid being a victim of 'Express Hijackings', being taken by a seemingly legitimate taxi driver and forced- sometimes at gunpoint- to withdraw cash at ATMs.

http://overheadbin.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/06/08/6814606-time-to-say-adios-to-mexico-travel-

There's more. 

As much as I love Mexico, and the Mexican people, their government seems increasingly unable to effectively battle the drug gangs or provide security for tourists.

I will continue to vote with my feet and take my dollars elsewhere.

Jim Ricks


----------



## pittle

*We are in Mazatlan tight now*

I have read every State Department memo since we get regular updates from them.  We are currently in Mazatlan and enjoying it immesely.  We have driven into town to Walmart, Mega and the Shrimp Market.  We have had no problems whatsoever.  

We drove to Mazatlan from Phoenix and because of some kind of "event" we chose to drive further south instead of staying at the Holiday Inn where we had reservations.  We had to park 4 blocks away for about 4 hours - no thank you!!!  The Highway 15 toll road was very safe and we were not concerned for our saftey.  

We have talked to folks at the PBEB next door and they say the resort is only about 15% full.  The economy is dying here because the Americans are not coming.

Please do not stop going to Mexico.


----------



## aliikai2

*Did you read this?*

Texas borders Juarez, and nobody here is saying that the northern board of Mexico is a safe place for tourists.

"If we’re to talk about Mexico in general," Weisz said, "the risks to travelers have not changed that much."

He also says those traveling in the less dangerous areas of Mexico should try to schedule their flights so they arrive and depart during the day; take taxis only at official hotel or airport stands; go out in groups, avoid drinking excessively and drink only from beverages that must be opened in front of you; and never share too much information with strangers lest you tip off a potential thief to your whereabouts during your stay. If these guidelines seem disconcerting, *Weisz said they're the same ones he suggests for traveling in more secure cities like Paris and Rome.*


Again, I have to ask, if you aren't going to travel to Mexico, why post something and then slant it to seem like the entire country is a war zone? 

Oh well, I guess that will cut down on the crowds while we make our next several trips,

fwiw,

Greg



Passepartout said:


> Here's a discussion on the current safety situation regarding travel to Mexico, including State Dept., Texas State warnings, cruise line's not stopping at Mexican ports.
> 
> Included are recommendations to avoid being a victim of 'Express Hijackings', being taken by a seemingly legitimate taxi driver and forced- sometimes at gunpoint- to withdraw cash at ATMs.
> 
> http://overheadbin.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/06/08/6814606-time-to-say-adios-to-mexico-travel-
> 
> There's more.
> 
> As much as I love Mexico, and the Mexican people, their government seems increasingly unable to effectively battle the drug gangs or provide security for tourists.
> 
> I will continue to vote with my feet and take my dollars elsewhere.
> 
> Jim Ricks


----------



## Joe M.

*Princess Cruise cancels calls in PV*

http://overheadbin.msnbc.msn.com/_n...ays-its-safe-despite-princess-canceling-calls

We were in PV in December and plan to return in the future. Club Regina PV is our absolute favorite vacation spot over the past decade. It is too bad that the city is getting some bad press coverage.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

As I posted upthread, can you imagine any city in the US where bus drivers would have an open cash till sitting right by the front door of the bus, within easy hand reach of anyone getting on and off the bus.  Yet that is pretty much the norm in all of the areas in Mexico that I have been.

****

I really can't think of any more tangible example than that.  If any bus company in the US attempted to run buses through all parts of the city, with all of the bus fares sitting in an open box right next to the entrance, how long do you think that would continue before US thieves would take advantage of the easy pickings?

Certainly there is serious crime in Mexico in settings where there is significant gang activity. But in the tourist areas in which I have visited the level of petty crime seems decidedly less than what we accept as the norm in the US.

*****

Certainly, once you get outside of the main tourist areas in Mexico you should expect the situation to change, much as you would in in the US.


----------



## e.bram

Maybe there is more crime in Washington(state) than in Mexico, but here in New Jersey things aren't that bad.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

e.bram said:


> Maybe there is more crime in Washington(state) than in Mexico, but here in New Jersey things aren't that bad.


I have friends who took a wrong turn in Camden one time and felt lucky to get out alive. I know people who work in Camden where they have armed guards on patrol almost all of the time.  There are drug wars, rapes, assaults, etc. on a daily basis.  Residents live in fear, all of the houses look like jails because of the bars on the doors and windows, there are areas of the city where drug lords rule the streets and not the police. 

New Jersey is clearly a violent state that no tourist in their right mind should ever visit if they have the least regard for their safety.  You need to get out of New Jersey  and move to someplace safe.


----------



## e.bram

That part of NJ must be like Washington(state). Up here in the northern part things are pretty calm.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

e.bram said:


> That part of NJ must be like Washington(state). Up here in the northern part things are pretty calm.



The entire State of New Jersey is clearly infested with crime.  The government is corrupt. Officials look the other way as hoodlums bury bodies.

Everyone knows that New Jersey is the thrall of the Genovese and Lucchese crime families.  They've bought off the politicians and infiltrated the government throughout the entire state.

Why anyone would choose to live in a hellhole like New Jersey - aptly named the "Landfill of Opportunity" - is beyond me.  

******

As regards crime and danger in New Jersey, you're just like the myopic people Mexican tourists who don't realize the true crime situation in Mexico. You have your head in the sand and don't want to admit the truth. Anyone who reads the newspapers, watches television, and goes to the cinema knows what's really going in New Jersey.  The fact that I haven't been in New Jersey clearly makes my perception of the situation more reliable than yours.


----------



## mikenk

I hate to admit it - but I love parody style humor.

Thanks


----------



## easyrider

Passepartout said:


> As much as I love Mexico, and the Mexican people, their government seems increasingly unable to effectively battle the drug gangs or provide security for tourists.
> 
> I will continue to vote with my feet and take my dollars elsewhere.
> 
> Jim Ricks



So the issue is the Mexican Goverments inability to provide tourist security when they travel to Mexico ? 

The odds of a violent crime happening to a regular tourist in Mexico is about 1/750,000.

The Mexican Goverment is ineffective in the battle against drug gangs ? 

It is because the USA is responsible for over 60% of the weapons these gangs buy. It could be that the USA drug consumer is even more responsible as that is where the drug lords get most of their sales. It could be that a failed drug war in the USA has helped to fuel this demand.

Do you need to stand on your head to vote with your feet ? lol


----------



## BlindBat

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> The entire State of New Jersey is clearly infested with crime.  The government is corrupt. Officials look the other way as hoodlums bury bodies.
> 
> Everyone knows that New Jersey is the thrall of the Genovese and Lucchese crime families.  They've bought off the politicians and infiltrated the government throughout the entire state.
> 
> Why anyone would choose to live in a hellhole like New Jersey - aptly named the "Landfill of Opportunity" - is beyond me.
> 
> ******
> 
> As regards crime and danger in New Jersey, you're just like the myopic people Mexican tourists who don't realize the true crime situation in Mexico. You have your head in the sand and don't want to admit the truth. Anyone who reads the newspapers, watches television, and goes to the cinema knows what's really going in New Jersey.  The fact that I haven't been in New Jersey clearly makes my perception of the situation more reliable than yours.




Brilliant. I just hope your target audience can figure out what you are saying..


----------



## levatino

*Cancun Safety*

I was going to post this as a response to a sightings/distressed posting and then I realized it was more appropriate here.

Someone mentioned in a Westin Lagunamar posting: "Huge availability in Mexico. Many of us won't travel there right now."  

To me this is somewhat silly.  Most violence is restricted to Western Mexico, nowhere near the Maya Riviera, Cancun and Eastern Mexico.  I have yet to hear of one tourist death in  Eastern Mexico, yet have heard of many on the tiny island of Aruba, and yet there are few posts, if any, advising people to stay away from that minuscule island.  Mexico is covers a tremendous land mass.  While South Central Los Angeles, and downtown New Haven CT have daily murders, no one advises people to stay away from the United States.

I understand that reactivity often overpowers rationality, and in this case, I think refusing to travel to Mexico simply reinforces that point.


----------



## pjrose

The second sticky at the top of  the Mexico forum also has lots of posts on this issue.


----------



## K&PFitz

""Huge availability in Mexico. Many of us won't travel there right now." "


If anyone has reserved a week at Lagunamar and is afraid to use it, you may give it to me.  Thanks.


----------



## kenie

K&PFitz said:


> ""Huge availability in Mexico. Many of us won't travel there right now." "
> 
> 
> If anyone has reserved a week at Lagunamar and is afraid to use it, you may give it to me.  Thanks.



Put me on the list as well please...


----------



## siesta

levatino said:


> I was going to post this as a response to a sightings/distressed posting and then I realized it was more appropriate here.
> 
> Someone mentioned in a Westin Lagunamar posting: "Huge availability in Mexico. Many of us won't travel there right now."
> 
> To me this is somewhat silly.  Most violence is restricted to Western Mexico, nowhere near the Maya Riviera, Cancun and Eastern Mexico.  I have yet to hear of one tourist death in  Eastern Mexico, yet have heard of many on the tiny island of Aruba, and yet there are few posts, if any, advising people to stay away from that minuscule island.  Mexico is covers a tremendous land mass.  While South Central Los Angeles, and downtown New Haven CT have daily murders, no one advises people to stay away from the United States.
> 
> I understand that reactivity often overpowers rationality, and in this case, I think refusing to travel to Mexico simply reinforces that point.



_(personal attack removed)_

Levitino, i remember when you sent your mom to mexico (WLR?) and she was worried about going to "drug cartel land", when i took my mom and her sister to WLR for this past mothers day, they had the same opinion, with many of the family telling them not to go due to safety (what do they know ...half of them had never even been to MX). Well Mark Twain was right, “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness.”

Not only did they have a fantastic time, but they cant wait to return. For two women that are usually chickens they had no qualms about walking around late at night without me, they even went to CoCo Bongo Club without me until 4 in the morning just about.

Anyways, now my only problem is they want to tag along with me on my December trip to WLR!


----------



## levatino

I would be more comfortable if we avoid incendiary language  _(personal attack language from post above removed)_

We really are blessed people to have the luxury of arguing over safe places to vacation.


----------



## Karen G

I've edited the two posts above.  You can disagree with another person's opinion on a topic by stating your opinion, but please leave personal attacks out of the discussion and be courteous.

On the topic of safety in Mexico, we just got back from a wonderful week in Cabo. We feel very safe, as we always have, when we visit there. Since Cabo is at the "end of the earth" as our driver described it, the drug cartels don't operate there.  If anyone wants to plan a trip to Mexico, consider Cabo as a destination.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

*Warning!!! - Do not vacation in the US.  31 people brutally shot in New York City within 48 hours*

31 people shot citywide in 48 hours

Violence and shootings rampant in the US - police seem totally unable to stop the thugs.  Stay away from the USA if you want to be safe on your next vacation!!!


----------



## oldspice14

*Mexico travel safety......advice ?? [merged with thread on Mexico forum]*

I have two Royal Beach Club rooms reserved at the Westin Resort & Spa, Los Cabos over Easter 2012 for a family vacation.  These rooms were reserved using Starpoints.  Some of the family is getting a little nervous about traveling to Mexico with all the negative publicity the country is receiving.  We are considering cancelling this reserevation  How do those of you who own and/or travel to Mexico feel about travel to Mexico these days?  Have any of you stayed at this resort?

If we cacel, we would look for something during the same time period in Hawaii.  I realize it may be to late to reserve rooms using starpoints over Easter, but if not do any of you have recommendations of where to stay?  The other option would be to rent an Easter week in Hawaii from a Starwood owner looking to rent their TS week.  Do any of you have recommendations on the "best" resorts to look for villa rentals?  The kids are 25, 23 and 16.  We would look to golf, take in some sights and a little R&R by the ocean/pool.

Thank you in advance for your advice.


----------



## Karen G

We were just in Cabo in August and we go almost every year.  Cabo is one of the safest destinations in Mexico. It is at the southernmost tip of the Baja peninsula at the "end of the world" as our driver told us. The drug cartels don't operate there, he said. 

I've stayed at the Westin several years ago and it was pleasant, but it is not my favorite location in Cabo. You'd definitely want to have a rental car there on the corridor between the two towns of San Jose del Cabo (where the airport is located) and Cabo San Lucas.


----------



## DeniseM

oldspice14 said:


> I have two Royal Beach Club rooms reserved at the Westin Resort & Spa, Los Cabos over Easter 2012 for a family vacation.



This resort is not part of the Starwood Vacation Network, so I moved your post to the pertinent thread on the Mexico forum.


----------



## aliikai2

*The truth is Mexico is safer than many places in the US*

Here is an article that finally points out the media hype that is going on in the USA
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/08/21/TR3O1KLPOQ.DTL

It is like going anywhere,  use common sense, 

Greg



oldspice14 said:


> I have two Royal Beach Club rooms reserved at the Westin Resort & Spa, Los Cabos over Easter 2012 for a family vacation.  These rooms were reserved using Starpoints.  Some of the family is getting a little nervous about traveling to Mexico with all the negative publicity the country is receiving.  We are considering cancelling this reserevation  How do those of you who own and/or travel to Mexico feel about travel to Mexico these days?  Have any of you stayed at this resort?
> 
> If we cacel, we would look for something during the same time period in Hawaii.  I realize it may be to late to reserve rooms using starpoints over Easter, but if not do any of you have recommendations of where to stay?  The other option would be to rent an Easter week in Hawaii from a Starwood owner looking to rent their TS week.  Do any of you have recommendations on the "best" resorts to look for villa rentals?  The kids are 25, 23 and 16.  We would look to golf, take in some sights and a little R&R by the ocean/pool.
> 
> Thank you in advance for your advice.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

oldspice14 said:


> I have two Royal Beach Club rooms reserved at the Westin Resort & Spa, Los Cabos over Easter 2012 for a family vacation.  These rooms were reserved using Starpoints.  Some of the family is getting a little nervous about traveling to Mexico with all the negative publicity the country is receiving.  We are considering cancelling this reserevation  How do those of you who own and/or travel to Mexico feel about travel to Mexico these days?  Have any of you stayed at this resort?



For reference, I was born and raised in Minnesota and travel to Minnesota regularly to visit family. I also travel regularly to Hawaii and to Mexico.

How would you respond to a friend or family member who said they would really like to visit Minnesota, but all of the news stories they have heard about drugs, gangs, and violence in some neighborhoods in the Twin Cities has them really scared for their personal safety in Minnesota?

The fact that I wouldn't make vacation plans to to stay on the near North side in Minneapolis doesn't stop me from visiting other locales in Minnesota.  In exactly the same vein, the fact that I wouldn't visit Nuevo Laredo doesn't stop me from visiting other areas in Mexico.

In fact, of those three locales I visit regularly (Minnesota, Mexico, and Hawaii) the area where on the whole I am on the highest alert level for personal safety is Hawaii.


----------



## bjones9942

oldspice14 said:


> I have two Royal Beach Club rooms reserved at the Westin Resort & Spa, Los Cabos over Easter 2012 for a family vacation.  These rooms were reserved using Starpoints.  Some of the family is getting a little nervous about traveling to Mexico with all the negative publicity the country is receiving.  We are considering cancelling this reserevation  How do those of you who own and/or travel to Mexico feel about travel to Mexico these days?  Have any of you stayed at this resort?



Have you read the U.S. travel advisory, or had your family read it?  If you're part of a drug cartel then I'd worry plenty.  Otherwise I'd treat it just like any other city you might visit, using the same precautions.

I have a timeshare in the middle of the Gold Zone in Mazatlan.  Other than being propositioned by a transvestite hooker I've seen no illegal activity.  Not saying there isn't any, just that I've used a little caution and have not seen it.


----------



## Zib

*Inviting you to my city*

Quoted from Jim: (I don't know how to do those quote things. Sorry!)
Here's a discussion on the current safety situation regarding travel to Mexico, including State Dept., Texas State warnings, cruise line's not stopping at Mexican ports. 
Included are recommendations to avoid being a victim of 'Express Hijackings', being taken by a seemingly legitimate taxi driver and forced- sometimes at gunpoint- to withdraw cash at ATMs. 
http://overheadbin.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...mexico-travel- 
There's more. 
As much as I love Mexico, and the Mexican people, their government seems increasingly unable to effectively battle the drug gangs or provide security for tourists. 
I will continue to vote with my feet and take my dollars elsewhere.

Jim Ricks

Hey Jim and others,  I'd like to invite you to come to my town, Salinas, 
15 miles from beautiful Monterey/Carmel, Ca.  We are known to have 
one of the highest gang (drugs) shootings in the whole country.  Most 
of those doing the shooting are 13 to 19 years old (probably egged 
on by adults)  We just keep our heads down and run in and out of the 
stores and home again.  And then we escape to a safer place by going 
to Mexico a couple times a year. Seriously tho, I don't mean to make a 
joke out of the really bad problems we have here.  It's out of control 
and the police etc can't seem to get a handle on it. I never walk around
 my town after dark and I don't go shopping at night, especiallyat the malls.  
I do walk after dark (not in isolated places ) in Mexico and shop 
in the busy areas, but I am careful where I go.  We do not drive in 
Mexico or go into or through the border cities. Yes I know, you can have 
problems everywhere but I think you just have to use common sense 
(and have a little trust in God) where ever you are in this world now 
days, but I refuse to let it stop me from doing the things I like to do.  
When people ask "Why are you going to Mexico with all that violence?"
I just say "Because I live in Salinas".


----------



## Passepartout

Zib said:


> I don't know how to do those quote things....
> 
> "Why are you going to Mexico with all that violence?"
> I just say "Because I live in Salinas".



To quote another message in a thread, just click the blue "Quote" button and when it opens the box where you type your reply, just keep everything between the 





> boxes. You can edit for clarity/brevity/humor/pointedness or whatever you want. Just keep the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> s at the ends. Then if you want to see what your message looks like before you submit it, click 'Preview Post' If you like it, click 'Submit', if not, edit away.
> 
> Anyway, I have booked an exchange into one of my favorite resorts in Mexico for next Spring. I will wander the streets, and very likely nothing regrettable will happen. I know I said otherwise in the message you quoted, but if you can't change your mind, what's the point of having a mind.
> 
> All the best in Salinas.
> 
> Jim
Click to expand...


----------



## siesta

*Cabo San Lucas is heating up*

Everyone knows i support safe and responsible travel to Mexico. But there are some implications on this thread that Cabo San Lucas is immune to the surge of cartel violence that has taken place as cartels battle amongst themselves for territory and/or battle federal and municipal forces, which is not entirely true. Some people may like to believe because of the location of the resort town, it is not a strategic spot for cartels, think again.

Here is an excerpt of what took place this past Saturday:

"A confusing situation continues to unfold in Cabo San Lucas after the Plaza Sendero retail mall in this resort city was the scene of a confrontation between gunmen and authorities during the afternoon hours of Saturday.

This Saturday evening the Milenio news agency reported that 12 gunmen armed with assault weapons had barricaded themselves in the Soriana big box store located in the mall. 

The gunmen were being pursued by municipal police at the time and had entered the mall to avoid capture.

According to Milenio there were approximately 600 shoppers inside the store at the time and that up to 200 remained hostage after 6 of the gunmen had been captured."

Fyi, apparently noone really was directly taken hostage, they were just trapped in the mall as police were outside and they had to wait it out. No reported injuries, and gunmen were taken into custody.

What preceded this incident the day before was this:

"The incident at Plaza Sendero in this usually quiet tourist resort city followed a gunbattle in the colonia Brisas del Pacifico that stretched from 11:00pm Friday to early Saturday morning. 

Automatic gunfire and grenade blasts shook the city when state police and the military raided a home in the search for the killers of police commander Martín Márquez Ruíz, who was murdered earlier in the week.

One Marine and a gunman were killed, 3 state ministerial police were wounded and 2 gunmen were captured during the raid in Brisas del Pacifico."

www.borderlandbeat.com


----------



## siesta

To add to my previous post it appears Cabo San Lucas is controlled by the Sinaloa Cartel, which is not surprising since it is right across the Sea of Cortez from Mazatlan and the Sinaloa Cartel is the most powerful DTO in the country.


----------



## easyrider

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...52D5EF8F55C691BAF75BFC5&first=151&FORM=IDFRIR

I think this is the shopping center north west of Cabo. 

This isn't a main shopping center that tourist use. Most tourist go to Wallmart and Costco. I have been to this store and noticed an elevated gaurd shack with an armed gaurd in it. 

No tourist or local civilians were hurt. 

Nice find Siesta. I think Cabo would be a difficult area for the drug gangs to base operations because of remote location and small heavily protected marina. There are only a few places to unload cago off a boat. 

So, Im not convinced that this was anything more than a robbery that timed out.


----------



## klpca

We were just in Cabo last week (1/7 - 1/14) and we never felt unsafe. Small sample size, I know, but it seemed to be business as usual. We talked about it with our taxi driver, our whale watching guide,  and various people we met in restaurants and those who live there were emphatic about the safety of the area. We're from southern CA and most were quick to warn us about staying away from Tijuana, lol.


----------



## PStreet1

His target audience is totally aware of current events, in all areas of the globe; they will already be well-aware of the conditions in New Jersey and will have marked the state off--and perhaps any surrounding states.


----------



## krmlaw

*Worried - is Cancun safe for families?*

We have 2 units confirmed for Westin Lagunamar for thanksgiving week. 

We have a toddler, and the other family has a teenage daughter. 

I really need some help here - we dont know if we should go. We travel to the caribbean frequently (Caymans, SXM, Aruba), but Mexico/Cancun seem different. 

Is it safe?


----------



## Passepartout

I think you will feel as safe and secure there as anywhere in the Caribbean you have been. The drug violence you have read about in Mexico is all about gangs controlling the transport routes for their product, and those don't go anywhere near the tourist areas.

You will certainly see more security personnel around public areas- airport- malls, etc than you would see at home, but they are there to give the sense of safety.

Go and enjoy. It's a beautiful place to spend Thanksgiving with friends/family.

Jim


----------



## Ridewithme38

Passepartout said:


> I think you will feel as safe and secure there as anywhere in the Caribbean you have been. The drug violence you have read about in Mexico is all about gangs controlling the transport routes for their product, and those don't go anywhere near the tourist areas.
> 
> You will certainly see more security personnel around public areas- airport- malls, etc than you would see at home, but they are there to give the sense of safety.
> 
> Go and enjoy. It's a beautiful place to spend Thanksgiving with friends/family.
> 
> Jim



+1, i don't know if i'd stay in a 'border town' with a toddler, but Cancun should be fairly safe....I'd worry about the teenager doing teenage stuff though and looking for trouble


----------



## Larry

krmlaw said:


> We have 2 units confirmed for Westin Lagunamar for thanksgiving week.
> 
> We have a toddler, and the other family has a teenage daughter.
> 
> I really need some help here - we dont know if we should go. We travel to the caribbean frequently (Caymans, SXM, Aruba), but Mexico/Cancun seem different.
> 
> Is it safe?



Absolutely safe and I would not hesitate to go ( actually we are also going to Lagunamar the same week). You need to be cautious wherever you go but Cancun is one of the safest areas I have ever been to. 

I would actually be more concerned going to Miami and several other large US cities than Cancun which is heavily protected by the Mexican Army and they check all traffic going into the tourist areas. Most of the problems you here about Mexico are in the border towns between Mexico and the US.


----------



## AcadianTravellers

*Cancun is one of the safest place for tourist*

We just came back from Cancun and I was a nervous too because of everything going on and the news.  To us, it felt like home!  Cancun is very safe.  We had said before going that we would not leave the resort, but after being there for a day, we felt very safe leaving the resort.  We walked the Cancun strip and took the transit buses almost everyday.  As well, it is very safe with children.  There are lots of families with children travelling in the area of Cancun.  Please, don't worry and get excited and start packing and believe me it'll be a great family vacation!


----------



## K&PFitz

krmlaw said:


> We have 2 units confirmed for Westin Lagunamar for thanksgiving week.
> 
> We have a toddler, and the other family has a teenage daughter.
> 
> I really need some help here - we dont know if we should go. We travel to the caribbean frequently (Caymans, SXM, Aruba), but Mexico/Cancun seem different.
> 
> Is it safe?




We spent a week there last year, and my post about safety at that time is on page 5 of this thread.  In a nutshell, we found it very safe.  My brother-in-law and his family at Lagunamar in January, and they agree that there is no safety issue.  

To switch coasts for a second, we just got back from Puerto Vallarta.  We walked all over the downtown and southside, took buses and taxis everywhere, and also to the water taxi to the town of Yelapa.  We felt perfectly safe everywhere.  

We have traveled to Mexico each of the last four years, and will probably make it an annual event for years to come.  You just can't beat sitting on a beach in the middle of winter.


----------



## Johnsp

*Safe Places to Travel In Mexico*

http://travel.usatoday.com/destinat...rtment-updates-mexico-travel-warning/623473/1

The above link is a recent article about travel in Mexico from USA Today.  This should answer some of the questions I have read on Tug about safe travel in Mexico.


----------



## MommaBear

krmlaw said:


> We have 2 units confirmed for Westin Lagunamar for thanksgiving week.
> 
> We have a toddler, and the other family has a teenage daughter.
> 
> I really need some help here - we dont know if we should go. We travel to the caribbean frequently (Caymans, SXM, Aruba), but Mexico/Cancun seem different.
> 
> Is it safe?



I feel safer at WLR than I do going from the back door of my hospital in Portland, ME into the attached parking lot. We had a murder there a year ago. If I have had a particularly bizarre or threatening patient, I have security walk me out.

Go, have a wonderful time, enjoy the amazing hospitality. The resort is amazing, the people welcoming and the food fantastic. Prices are great, transportation reasonable- what more could you want on vacation?

(Or maybe I should tell people NOT to go so I get better more frequent exchanges and can go ALOT)


----------



## Joe M.

*Cruise tour passengers robbed at gunpoint in PV*

This will not help tourism. Our favorite vacations have been in PV and we plan to return someday but this makes us a bit more wary.

http://overheadbin.msnbc.msn.com/_n...-at-gunpoint-on-ship-sponsored-tour-in-mexico


----------



## maja651

That is scary!  Yikes!   I just wish this would stop happening in our favorite country to vacation in!  Arghhhhhhh 

Michelle


----------



## presley

I guess it isn't too surprising.  

Disney cut out some of their already scheduled/booked Mexican cruises towards the end of this year.  I believe that they kept some, but I wonder if they will end up cancelling those, too.


----------



## AnnaS

That is sooooo scary - if I ever had an incident like this, I would be done with any excursions, etc.


----------



## nazclk

*Not all Mexico is Bad*

We have been going to Cabo for years and have had nothing but a pleasant experience. In fact they are holding the G-20 conference there this year and Hillary was just there last week.


----------



## MommaBear

Crime is everywhere. I am not sure that tourist areas of Mexico are worse than other places. This has actually happened twice in Nassau in the last year, as well as in St Kitts and Antigua. Here is an interesting link: http://www.cruiselawnews.com/tags/robbery/ 

I looked for a link to see if I could figure out what percentage of people on cruises were being robbed vs every day citizens in a US major city. I didn't find comparison statistics. However, in 2005 there were 25,000  robberies reported in NY city, down from 100,000 in 1990. Tamap had 1,600 and greater Miami had 5,800. I am not sure that this is an apples to apples comparison but many of us still go to US cities where crime is prevelant.  I still love Boston and there were 2,600 robberies in 2005.


----------



## PStreet1

I have a friend who took this tour (not with Carnival) years ago and her reaction was "Carnival was very foolish to have offered this tour.  It's high in the mountains, very isolated--a bunch of gringos all by themselves with no help for miles.....just waiting to be robbed.  It's not a trip I would ever take today."  She and her husband spend a couple of weeks a year in Puerto Vallarta, and are headed there soon on a cruise--not on Carnival.  

That, of course, doesn't excuse the crime's having been committed, but it does say something about Carnival's exploration of the excursions they offer.

We're headed to Egypt on a cruise in the fall.  At this point, I have no real faith that the cruise will actually go to Egypt, and if it does, some excursions may be cancelled or altered.  I will be monitoring the situation there and evaluating for myself before I make a decision about which excursions to take.  I'm hoping that our cruise line is doing an adequate job of screening the situation there because, frankly, I know no more about safety in Egypt than those poor travelers knew about safety in Mexico.


----------



## tselios

*crime is everywhere but*

you are correct crime is everywhere, but when was the last time a whole tour bus got robbed in the U.S.?  If it did,  do you think the culprits would still be on the lose? Have there been Whole bus Robberies of the Carnival tour buses in the U.S.?

There is a big difference between Mexico and America. Do you think America would allow themselves to be held hostage by huge drug cartels?

I think we would not stand for it and we would demand a huge police and even a military intervention! I know there is a problem with gangs in America but not on the scale of Drug Cartels in Mexico. Our police presence is much better and I think we have less corruption in the police departments and hopefully less in our Government.
If people decide to spend there vacation time in Mexico and alot of there hard earned money, I think they should expect to be safe. That is an individual decision that each person or family has to make on there own.

Just my thoughts.........


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

tselios said:


> I think we would not stand for it and we would demand a huge police and even a military intervention! I know there is a problem with gangs in America but not on the scale of Drug Cartels in Mexico. Our police presence is much better and I think we have less corruption in the police departments and hopefully less in our Government.



Au contraire.  There are significant areas within US cities that are controlled and dominated by local gangs, where the police presence is almost entirely ineffectual and local gangs control the turf.  And we are not sending in police and military units en masse to reestablish control of those areas. 

Of course, cruise ships don't send tour buses into those locales within the US.


----------



## snsfriel

We were in PV 2/2/12 for 2 weeks -saw police present everywhere and they were patroling the beach. Today 4 kids were shot in a school in Ohio.


----------



## tselios

*killing police*

I guess I like to think we have a little more law and order in the U.S.
In mexico they are killing police officers...one a day

http://www.policeone.com/border-pat...ug-cartel-threatens-to-kill-an-officer-a-day/

I think if the gangs were doing that in the U.S. we would not stand for it!
Maybe I'm wrong. 

We have serial killers but not like this

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...n-drug-cartel-leader-admits-killing-1500.html


----------



## Passepartout

Not that it's an either/or comparison, but if there was no market for drugs in the USA, there would be be no supply network to get the drugs north or the weapons south. If there was no drug gang activity, the thugs could be selling timeshares. Then instead of simply holding up the occasional tourist bus, they could extort MF payments annually and an SA every 5 years or so from thousands of American citizens.

Sorry if I seem to be making light of a very serious situation. It isn't meant that way. I'm sure it was traumatic those who were the victims, and I hope the criminals are caught and dealt with harshly- though I haven't read of any progress on that...

Now I have to go pack for my trip to Mexico this week.

Jim


----------



## Loggie

We talked to one of the vendors on the beach and he said that it seems more like tht it was staged.  He said that there is such a big competition between companies that if they make one look bad they will will then go and book reservations with the other company.

We just returned from a trip to Rancho Capomo.  We did 15 minutes of horseback riding ..... this was to get to the zip lines.  Then 13 zip lines and 2 hours of ATV through the back roads, rivers and Las Palmas.  There was lunch waiting for us when got back.

It was really fun and I am scared of horses.  The horses just plain follow the leader and you really do not have to do anything, but just sit there.  

The lunch was terrific!


----------



## mikenk

This morning on the Today show, the intro was "Should you allow your kids to go to Mexico for Spring Break?" Matt Lauer then did the story - no statistical evidence at all on safety of students. The story was on one student who was beaten while unconscious (passed out) in a pool area in Cancun a couple of years back. It has never been solved - absolutely no evidence at all as to what actually happened. AND YET, this one episode should make all parents refrain from allowing kids to go to Mexico. They also mentioned the PV incident at the end of their incompetent anecdotal story.

And this was the same day four students were shot in a high school in Ohio. If that had happened in Mexico, the entire country would have been condemned. Here in the USA, it was just an unfortunate incident in Ohio. 

We all know there is drug conflicts in parts of Mexico that need to be solved; I would certainly not vacation in Juarez; however, the sensationalism by our national media to continually capitalize on every incident in Mexico is completely irresponsible - all about ratings.

JMHO
Mike


----------



## ocean401

Loggie said:


> We talked to one of the vendors on the beach and he said that it seems more like tht it was staged.  He said that there is such a big competition between companies that if they make one look bad they will will then go and book reservations with the other company.



While I am not buying into the hysterical overreaction to this story, I also am not buying into that argument.  I simply can't believe in this climate that anyone would be so stupid as to stage this.  The cruises aren't going to book another company, they're simply not going to come back.  

I'm still planning on going in June to PV, but this explanation doesn't make much sense to me.


----------



## Carol C

I wonder how many people canceled trips to Aruba...or vowed never to vacation there...after the still-unsolved disappearance of Natalie Holloway. I have no interest in Aruba anyway...but the lack of closure and poor justice system there would make me hesitate to give the island my tourist business. Just my two pesos.


----------



## Passepartout

I read with some interest that Princess made their scheduled PV stop this week and Carnival's other Mexican Riviera cruiser did, too. The tour that was robbed was not offered by Princess, and Carnival cancelled it. The PV Tourist bureau issued a press release that security personnel will insure the safety of visitors.

Jim


----------



## siesta

Carol C said:


> I wonder how many people canceled trips to Aruba...or vowed never to vacation there...after the still-unsolved disappearance of Natalie Holloway. I have no interest in Aruba anyway...but the lack of closure and poor justice system there would make me hesitate to give the island my tourist business. Just my two pesos.


This is not the first time Ive heard this, but I still think of it as completely asinine, and ironically both of my sisters share your sentiment, to their husbands' dismay. Using that logic about lack of closure and a poor justice system, noone would go to the state of California, or the entire south and southeast, among many many other places in the US. Did people stop skiing in Colorado because what happened in the Jean Benet Ramsey case? Mishandled by police, accused the parents for years until they were finally dismissed as suspects by DNA. Or countless black inmates in prison or on death row in the south due to racism, false confessions under duress, planting of evidence, etc.

Also to generalize security and the criminal justice sytem of Aruba based on one incident and the media frenzy that ensued seems to me as a pre-mature, and borderline ignorant, comment.


----------



## nazclk

*Going to Mexico*

Just something I wanted to throw out there for discussion. There have been many and I mean many discussions on this forum as well as other websites about the safety in Mexico.  Don't people realize that this is just another place in the world, it's not Heaven folks.  Show me one place on God's earth that does not have problems. Last week I was in Cabo and had a fantastic time, no shootings, no looting's, just a nice time.  Get back home, 4 shootings between gang members in the last week and more this week. So I guess we live in a safe place in America. Compare the statistics according to population and I am sure  
we pretty much lead the pack. Thanks for listening and I love Mexico as a vacation spot.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

nazclk said:


> Just something I wanted to throw out there for discussion. There have been many and I mean many discussions on this forum as well as other websites about the safety in Mexico.  Don't people realize that this is just another place in the world, it's not Heaven folks.  Show me one place on God's earth that does not have problems. Last week I was in Cabo and had a fantastic time, no shootings, no looting's, just a nice time.  Get back home, 4 shootings between gang members in the last week and more this week. So I guess we live in a safe place in America. Compare the statistics according to population and I am sure
> we pretty much lead the pack. Thanks for listening and I love Mexico as a vacation spot.



I totally agree.

I remember one time when one of my boys was about eight years old.  I was at home shortly after noon one Saturday when one of my son's friends called me in terror.  He was at his grandparent's house a couple of blocks away, where he and his infant sister were being babysat by his uncle while his parents were gone for a few hours. 

I quickly realized that his uncle had just been shot and was in the front yard. he was cowering in the house, and I happened to be the nearest adult he felt he could safely call.

I jumped in the car and drove over.  When I pulled up I saw the uncle and a friend of the uncle's laying on the ground alongside the street and next to a car they had been working on - drive-by shooting.  As the car stopped my son's friend came running out of the house with his sister in his arms wrapped in a blanket. I opened the door, he hopped in and we slunk down for a moment while I did a double check to be sure that there wasn't something more happening.  

As I was getting ready to leave the police and cordoned off the street ahead of me and behind me.  So we just stayed put until the police had finished with us and let us depart.

----

Yep -there's crime in America too, folks.  Even in nice neighborhoods.

We just got back from Puerto Vallarta last week - staying in the tourist locales remains safer than most tourist areas in any major urban area in the US - Union Square, Times Square, Miami Beach, ....


----------



## laura1957

siesta said:


> This is not the first time Ive heard this, but I still think of it as completely asinine, and ironically both of my sisters share your sentiment, to their husbands' dismay. Using that logic about lack of closure and a poor justice system, noone would go to the state of California, or the entire south and southeast, among many many other places in the US. Did people stop skiing in Colorado because what happened in the Jean Benet Ramsey case? Mishandled by police, accused the parents for years until they were finally dismissed as suspects by DNA. Or countless black inmates in prison or on death row in the south due to racism, false confessions under duress, planting of evidence, etc.
> 
> Also to generalize security and the criminal justice sytem of Aruba based on one incident and the media frenzy that ensued seems to me as a pre-mature, and borderline ignorant, comment.




Agree!!  and the Holloway case is a perfect example of NOT using common sense/good judgement.   I am not blaming the victim, but I do hope that at least some young girls learned from her mistakes.


----------



## siesta

We have been travelling to MX for years and also love it there. For me it is not just the beautiful beaches, delicious food, and rich culture that keep us going back, but the incredible hospitality that the people display. I feel good about spending my tourist dollars in local mexican businesses because they are hard working people that genuinely appreciate you, and I am happy to support them.

There have been many places in the Caribbean ive been to where the staff "does not go the extra mile", and the level of hospitality just doesnt equate. A common expression is "it's island time", but that often just means be prepared for slow service and potential lackluster or indifferent attitudes. Of course this is a gneralization, and I love travelling to the Caribbean .. i just go with different expectations in regards to service.


----------



## PStreet1

I agree.  One case that should be added is that Jamaica is really, really unsafe for tourists, yet they blithly head for Jamaica while saying they would never, never go to Mexico.


----------



## Maple_Leaf

*CBC Special on Mexico Security Situation*

The CBC is currently doing a week long series of reports on the security situation in Mexico.  I just saw the first episode.  The basic message was that the security situation has deteriorated enough throughout the country to consider it an insurgency, however, things still appear to be safe at the beach for tourists.


----------



## siesta

The story came out about the PV robbery, it wasnt a group of gunmen, it was one common petty thief that robbed them. Not a cartel targetting tourists.


----------



## Tropical lady

Siesta is correct.  
In addition, the robbery took place while the tour was walking in an isolated area.  The robber was an opportunist, not a bandit breaking open the bus doors.  I loved the pic of the robber while in action that someone took as it was happening.  It still is an unfortunate situation but it needs to be put into perspective.  No walking tours in the mountains for me.


----------



## Maple_Leaf

*Map of Mexican Travel Advisories*

The CBC has a map up on their website summarising the US, UK and Canadian travel advisories for Mexico on a state-by-state basis.  You can hover your cursor over each state for more details.  It looks like Los Cabos, Cancun, Mayan Riviera, Yucatan and San Miguel de Allende are still reasonably safe places for tourists.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

tselios said:


> There is a big difference between Mexico and America. Do you think America would allow themselves to be held hostage by huge drug cartels?
> 
> I think we would not stand for it and we would demand a huge police and even a military intervention! I know there is a problem with gangs in America but not on the scale of Drug Cartels in Mexico. Our police presence is much better and I think we have less corruption in the police departments and hopefully less in our Government..



This statement is not true.  In the US we don't have much of a problem with drug cartels and gangs hold communities hostage, provided the communities are poor minority neighborhoods and the gangs limit their mayhem to those neighborhoods.

We are certainly not moving police and even military forces to reestablish control of neighborhoods in the US where there has been a complete breakdown in local policing.


----------



## buceo

Maple_Leaf said:


> The CBC has a map up on their website summarising the US, UK and Canadian travel advisories for Mexico on a state-by-state basis.  You can hover your cursor over each state for more details.  It looks like Los Cabos, Cancun, Mayan Riviera, Yucatan and San Miguel de Allende are still reasonably safe places for tourists.



Thanks for the map.  Looks like the UK and Canada are in agreement with only border warnings, the US is the sole stand out with so many others.


----------



## easyrider

*The 10 most dangerous cities in Mexico*

http://www.gadling.com/photos/10-most-dangerous-cities-in-mexico/4746846/#4746783

It might be that since the USA is in a bit of a recession and not hiring as many Mexican imigrants as in the past. This could be causing the crime rate to escalate in larger Mexican cities. I know it has in the USA.


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## easyrider

*Mexico expects 52 million tourist in the south east*

Im not suprised. 52 million in just this one region alone. If you add the other tourist areas it could be double.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/09/travel/mexico-travel-spring-break/


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## bccash63

easyrider said:


> http://www.gadling.com/photos/10-most-dangerous-cities-in-mexico/4746846/#4746783
> 
> It might be that since the USA is in a bit of a recession and not hiring as many Mexican imigrants as in the past. This could be causing the crime rate to escalate in larger Mexican cities. I know it has in the USA.



I am so sad to see Mazatlan on this list.  Wanted to try on eof the Pueblo Bonita resorts next yr dawn


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## Karen G

bccash63 said:


> I am so sad to see Mazatlan on this list.  Wanted to try on eof the Pueblo Bonita resorts next yr dawn


 You can still try one of the Pueblo Bonitos in Cabo. There are three there.


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## Passepartout

We and many thousands of others were in Mazatlan last week. We took an 'Art Walk' on the First Friday of the month. (goes every 1st Fri. this year)  Most gallery owners are ex-pats who live in the historic center and feel quite safe.

The resorts are very aware of the State Dep't advisories and are quietly making their resorts 'destinations' so that visitors don't have to leave and go out into the city. A shame, because 99.99% of the residents are very welcoming of foreigners.

The above referenced crime could have occurred in any city anywhere in America or the world. Some petty thief slams a victim upside the head, grabs his wallet and dashes. That it happened outside the gate of Riu which itself is in a less-than-fully-developed area away from the 'Golden Zone' about 5 miles says much about the authorities and security in the neighborhood.

We wish the victim well and godspeed to a full recovery.

The original Pueblo Bonito (Mazatlan) is in the center of the Golden Zone, and the PB Emerald Bay could be considered a full service destination.

Jim Ricks


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## ocean401

Latest Mexico ignorance is that all over the news are headlines that in Acapulco 10 people were beheaded and 12 police officers were ambushed and killed.  Once you read the article you see that it wasn't in Acapulco but in the town of Teloloapan which is described by these reporters as "north of Acapulco" or "between Acapulco and Mexico City."  Telolapan is 3 hours away (170 miles) from Acapulco.  Its insane they can get away with such misleading headlines/reports.

It seems like Mexico news stories are all written by morons.


----------



## beach.bar.bob

ocean401 said:


> Latest Mexico ignorance is that all over the news are headlines that in Acapulco 10 people were beheaded and 12 police officers were ambushed and killed.  Once you read the article you see that it wasn't in Acapulco but in the town of Teloloapan which is described by these reporters as "north of Acapulco" or "between Acapulco and Mexico City."  Telolapan is 3 hours away (170 miles) from Acapulco.  Its insane they can get away with such misleading headlines/reports.
> 
> It seems like Mexico news stories are all written by morons.



Related New York Times Article March 19, 2012: 
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/w...g-beheadings-12-officers-slain-in-mexico.html

bbb


----------



## pammex

www.youtube.com/watch?v=38AFaiNfXOU
Interview with Pamela Fuller at Casa velas

Do not let media hype make you so fearful you will not leave the country of USA.  First it will be Mexico where next.....I travel all over this country, go to Mazatlan every year , nevver had a problem, went last year first time despite all kinds of warnings to Acapulco. never saw anything bad.....yes I saw police, yes I saw military, remember there military does not fight outside Mexico so they do go about the country, have to do something.  Drug cartels are not after tourists.  The thing with the cruise ship and jungle walking thing was an isolated incident that could have happened anywhere , though it reeks set up from the get go...common sense, and awareness and you will be fine here.  

I live here 24/7, I travel to PV and NV all the time by car, travel all over Mexico by car...never an issue.  PV & NV could not be safer tourist destinations in my opinion....so relax, shut off the TV and media and just go and have fun.  Hey The Presidents daughter is in Oaxaca, which is supposedly having problems, how would that happen, she would be a target more than anyone, like us timeshare slouches, no drug cartel is interested in us...We have crime like everywhere else...period.... are they after tourists nope, ...come on SOB and enjoy...Meet you for a drink!


----------



## Maple_Leaf

*Security Tips for Mexico*

From a security consultant in Mexico City.  Most of these tips make sense no matter where you travel, however, they are tailored for Mexico based on the patterns of crime there against tourists.


----------



## Colorado Belle

I've been living in PV since October. I'm a woman,senior citizen, well-traveled.
I live in Amapas, up a big hill from the romantic zone of Puerto Vallarta. I walk all the time, alone, and even at night (until 11pm when I usually take a taxi). I don't feel threatened, nervous in the least. I certainly feel as safe as living in my ski resort town in Colorado.

I was here and followed the news re the Carnival cruise robbery.  The facts are these:
There was only 1 robber and only a few people were actually robbed. The picture that was taken enabled the police to identify the robber who had been involved in another attempted robbery in Mismaloya Beach area. In that incident, the victim was a bodyguard of the mayor and had a gun and clip in his car. When the robbers found the clip,they demanded that the victim show them the gun. (Gun ownership is illegal in Mexico btw). So the victim pulled the gun from under his seat and shot and killed one of the 3 robbers. The solo robber of the Carnival group was one of the 2 who got away. But the police were looking for him when:

It seems that it was well understood that this type of crime was very bad for the tourist economy.  The body of the robber was found by the police in a ditch, shot dead.  Vigilante justice? Sure.  And I hope they got the right guy and he was a carreer criminal and not just some poor inept idiot.  Whatever else, I doubt any tour buses will be robbed in the near or distant future.


----------



## papeterie

riverdees05 said:


> We are starting to pull together our plans for 2011/12 Winter and trying to decide if we should add Mexico to our exchange list.  What is your opinion?



We go every year at least once; use common sense.

The question is:  Where in Mexico?


----------



## bankr63

PStreet1 said:


> I agree.  One case that should be added is that Jamaica is really, really unsafe for tourists, yet they blithly head for Jamaica while saying they would never, never go to Mexico.



Ain't that the truth!  I have travelled to both; Jamaica once as a fearless mid-twenty something, and Mexico several times as a much more seasoned and savvy traveller.  I was scared shi(r)tless several times in our 2 weeks in Jamaica, but have never yet felt uncomfortable in MX.  Now youth made me take more chances in Jamaica; I am bit too old for midnight raves now  but we still try to get off the beaten path and see the "real" country where we can.


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## Archie583

Archie583 said:


> Just came back from Puerto Vallarta after spending 4 months in the area.
> Very safe, no problems at all. People are very friendly and helpful. So good that we even bought a condo in old town.



Just arrived home after being in Puerto Vallarta for 4 months. Spent much of the time furnishing our new condo which is beautiful. We walk out the door and we are on Bassilo Bido or just 3 blocks from the beach. We feel very safe in fact more safe than Flint, Michigan which is our home. Lot of sidewalk construction going on, should be done by December.


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## PStreet1

*Lonely Planet Writer Compares Safety in Mexico and U.S.*

Here is a link to the story.


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## siesta

*from the article*

"For example, the gateway to Disney World, Orlando, saw 7.5 murders per 100,000 residents in 2010 according to the FBI; this is higher than Cancun or Puerto Vallarta, with rates of 1.83 and 5.9 respectively, per a Stanford University report"


----------



## MuranoJo

Thanks for posting that.  In fact, I forwarded the link on to a few of our friends who are nervous about traveling to MX again.


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## CarolF

PStreet1 said:


> Lonely Planet Writer Compares Safety in Mexico and U.S.
> Here is a link to the story.



What an interesting article, thanks for posting.

Not really on topic but I thought this article was interesting too, particularly the actual chart giving comparisons around the world of traffic accidents, violence and suicide.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/04/daily-chart-14



> America stands out for having the highest mortality rate. It has a particularly high rate of traffic deaths, despite laws that ban drinking until 21. Where America is truly exceptional, however, is in its violence. At 8.9 per 100,000 population, the rate of violent death (such as from homicide or accidental shooting) is 18 times higher than in Britain. For young American men the risk is much higher. The death rate from homicide for 20-24 year olds is a staggering 28 per 100,000 population.


----------



## Jose.GonzalezTS

Doing some brief analysis i concluide the following acording to a few articles read:

Us Deaths in 2011 by firearm:

*10.2 deaths per 100,000* @ 311,000,000 people in the US = 31,772 deaths in the US by firearms in 2011

Mexico Deaths in 2011 by firearm:

12,000 deaths total with a population of 113,211,011 people shows a rate of *9.43 deaths per 100,000.*

Doing simple math, chances are higher to be killed in US than in Mexico. I am not saying that Mexico is safer than US. I think that it needs to be used common sense when traveling any foreign place. However, I think it is safe to travel to tourist destinations such as Cancun, Vallarta, Mazatlan, Cabo and Rocky Point since the protection of tourism is higher in those places.

I live in Mexico and can honestly tell you that if you have nothing to do with organized crime you have nothing to worry about.

References:
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-geography-of-gun-deaths/69354/
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/04/24/injuries-and-deaths-from-firea/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/14/mexico-drug-war-murders-map


----------



## Rob&Carol Q

*Mexico Warning*

http://news.yahoo.com/travel-warning-mexico-possible-violent-retaliation-against-americans-143445504--abc-news-topstories.html

Maybe it's just me but I would kind of note this prior to any trip South of the border.  I've been shot at enough, no more volunteering for that crap...


----------



## Phydeaux

Yes, it's just you. 

Unless someone is planning to vacation in the state of Tamaulipas, Mexico.  

The majority of travelers don't, however. They travel to the Yucatan Peninsula, Cancun, Playa del Carmen and Riviera Maya areas. These are roughly 1,600 miles from the state of Tamaulipas, the state with travel advisory. Or, over 700 miles to Puerto Vallarta, another popular vacation destination.

So if there was a travel advisory for Las Vegas, would you be warning your neighbors about it in Miamisburg, Ohio?


----------



## Timeshare Von

I have had a personal moratorium against travel into any area in Mexico for at least five years.  This most recent advisory is serious and it would seem Americans wherever in their country, could be at risk.

<<deleted inflammatory comment that I cannot substantiate>>


----------



## Phydeaux

Timeshare Von said:


> I have had a personal moratorium against travel into any area in Mexico for at least five years.  This most recent advisory is serious and *it would seem Americans wherever in their country, could be at risk*.
> 
> *Tourists have been gunned down on the strip in Cancun*, so while most of the drug related violence has been in non-tourist areas, it has also happened in other areas too.



So if there's violence in Los Angeles, you could be at risk in Milwaukee? Huh?

Link of credible reference source, please.


----------



## kherbold

Rob&Carol Q said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/travel-warning-mexico-possible-violent-retaliation-against-americans-143445504--abc-news-topstories.html
> 
> Maybe it's just me but I would kind of note this prior to any trip South of the border.  I've been shot at enough, no more volunteering for that crap...


it's you and any one else who believes the controlled media.. I live in Mexico and have never felt safer... even much more so than from where I came... Edmonton Alberta.
did you Know that just a few weeks ago the US state department actually broke down the areas/states  in Mexico.. if safe or not.  I live in La Paz, in Baja California and it has La Paz listed in the top 10 safest cities in all of North America.. yes that includes the US and my bet it is safer than yours


----------



## klpca

It's ironic that they were living in New Mexico and Oklahoma and were racing horses.

Anyway, if travel in Mexico makes you nervous you shouldn't go. It's your vacation and you should enjoy it.

We love Mexico and will continue to visit the resorts, which are located far from the hot spots. We live less than an hour away from one of the cities frequently named as dangerous, (Tijuana), and I work about 20 minutes away. We don't go there, although I have to admit that I have never liked TJ, mostly because it takes about 2 hours to cross the border coming back into the US. And it is a bit of a mess in that city with corrupt law enforcement.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Timeshare Von said:


> I have had a personal moratorium against travel into any area in Mexico for at least five years.  This most recent advisory is serious and it would seem Americans wherever in their country, could be at risk.
> 
> Tourists have been gunned down on the strip in Cancun, so while most of the drug related violence has been in non-tourist areas, it has also happened in other areas too.



Tourists have also been gunned down in Miami Beach.  So why do you vacation anywhere in the US?


----------



## PigsDad

Rob&Carol Q said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/travel-warning-mexico-possible-violent-retaliation-against-americans-143445504--abc-news-topstories.html
> 
> Maybe it's just me but I would kind of note this prior to any trip South of the border.  I've been shot at enough, no more volunteering for that crap...


Ah, Jeez -- not this crap again. :annoyed:   Please move this to the Mexico board -- there is a sticky there for all of the overreactionists to post and commiserate.

I'm sure from outside the US, people are amazed that we even send our children to school.  After all, every kid is packing heat and will gun down their classmates at the drop of a hat.  

Kurt


----------



## Passepartout

When I saw the header, I though this was going to be about the soon-to-be hurricane currently churning SW of Acapulco an headed N. to make things interesting on the Mexican Pacific Coast.

But alas, it is just a rehash of 'stay away from Mexicoism'. Yes, there are dangerous places. No they aren't country-wide. Go. Enjoy. Like with travel everywhere, be aware of your surroundings. 

Jim


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## Timeshare Von

<<<deleted Comment>>>


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## Timeshare Von

<<<deleted Comment>>>


----------



## Phydeaux

Timeshare Von said:


> Ironic to be coming from someone also living in Milwaukee.  We're in enough of our own risk without bringing LA into it.
> 
> *As for credible reference/source, I don't have to provide substantiation for my feelings or beliefs*.



Von, you wrote: "*Tourists have been gunned down on the strip in Cancun*..."

Do you see how this misinformation is not only untrue, but damning, misleading, harmful to travellers, and very damaging to residents that are trying to support their children and families from the income they derive working in the area?  


Then come back and write your'e "_disappointed in that when people voice an opinion, naive or dumb as it may be, some of you feel it a right to attack their beliefs, whatever they may be if they are not consistent with your own"_.

I feel pretty strongly others are dissappointed in people spreading damaging lies made up to support their "opinion". This is the last I'll say - shame on you. That whooshing sound is your crediblity leaving this web forum!


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## fillde

Rob&Carol Q said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/travel-warning-mexico-possible-violent-retaliation-against-americans-143445504--abc-news-topstories.html
> 
> Maybe it's just me but I would kind of note this prior to any trip South of the border.  I've been shot at enough, no more volunteering for that crap...



Thanks for posting that latest warning. Some of the State Department's warnings are more credible than others. Who knows about this one. But my problem with the constant warnings with Mexico is that people are becoming complacent.  Like any tourist spot never let your guard down.


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## bellesgirl

We will be going back to PV this winter unless something dramatic changes.  As far as Cancun being dangerous -this is from the State Department website: Quintana Roo: *Cancun,* Cozumel, Playa del Carmen, Riviera Maya and Tulum are the major cities/travel destinations in Quintana Roo -see map (PDF, 286 kb) to identify their exact locations: *No advisory is in effect.*
For other areas of Mexico: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_5665.html


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Timeshare Von said:


> As for credible reference/source, I don't have to provide substantiation for my feelings or beliefs.


I assume that you go to the effort of making posts because you want to share an opinion with people. If you want people to give any credence at all to what you post, you need to be willing to provide backup for what you say. If you are unwilling to provide substantiation for what you feel or believe there is no reason to give any heed at all to what you post. 

I agree that you are under no obligation to provide substantiation for what you believe. But when you do so you're pretty much like Linus sitting in the pumpkin patch on Thanksgiving, waiting for the Great Pumpkin to appear and give toys to all of the children.  By the same token we then have no obligation to take seriously anything that you post.


----------



## wilma

Timeshare Von said:


> Tourists have been gunned down on the strip in Cancun, so while most of the drug related violence has been in non-tourist areas, it has also happened in other areas too.



Really, have tourists (those not involved in drug activities) been gunned town in Cancun. Is this just your "opinion" or do you have something to back this up?


----------



## PigsDad

Phydeaux said:


> Von, you wrote: "*Tourists have been gunned down on the strip in Cancun*..."
> 
> Do you see how this misinformation is not only untrue, but damning, misleading, harmful to travellers, and very damaging to residents that are trying to support their children and families from the income they derive working in the area?
> 
> 
> Then come back and write your'e "_disappointed in that when people voice an opinion, naive or dumb as it may be, some of you feel it a right to attack their beliefs, whatever they may be if they are not consistent with your own"_.
> 
> I feel pretty strongly others are dissappointed in people spreading damaging lies made up to support their "opinion". This is the last I'll say - shame on you. That whooshing sound is your crediblity leaving this web forum!


Excellent post!  You stated exactly what I was thinking.  

There is a _*HUGE *_difference between attacking someone's opinions and/or beliefs vs. attacking misinformation.  Unfortunately, there will always be some people who just don't "get it".

Kurt


----------



## Timeshare Von

Timeshare Von said:


> I have had a personal moratorium against travel into any area in Mexico for at least five years.  This most recent advisory is serious and it would seem Americans wherever in their country, could be at risk.
> 
> <<deleted inflammatory comment that I cannot substantiate>>



OK my apologies for taking it too far and making a comment that I can't back up.


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## Toughbeat

Having a lengthy career in law enforcement I've seen UGLY and lots of it.  I've seen it here at home and have never let it deter me from traveling within the U.S.  That being said, I don't take lightly the news reports of crimes in Mexico or anywhere else for that matter.  I do however refuse to let those things decide FOR me whether or not to travel to Mexico.  If I did then I wouldn't leave my front door either.  There's danger everywhere, but we need to also let common sense prevail  We need to always be aware of our surroundings and not go out wandering into unknown areas especially late at night, be it at home or abroad.  

I've had nothing but wonderful experiences in Mexico, both inland and on the coastlines (Caribbean and Pacific).  I recently spent 3 weeks in Mexico City and its surrounding areas, even experiencing the 6.+ magnitude earthquake which I'm pretty much accustomed to living in Los Angeles anyway.  

I strongly believe that although danger can be just around the corner, I will continue to travel and gain as much culture and life experience outside my own little comfort zone, as the value in that far exceeds the scope of my fear and comfort of my couch.  

Travel as much as you can and only if your personal comfort and safety level allow you.  Everyone is different.  Just take as much precautions as are within your control, starting in your own backyard.


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## Toughbeat

Yvonne.. 

I didn't agree with your opinion about Mexico, but the hardest statement you made was not the one in which you made the inflammatory remark, it's owning up to it and APOLOGIZING.  I respect that.


----------



## pranas

Phydeaux said:


> Von, you wrote: "*Tourists have been gunned down on the strip in Cancun*..."
> 
> Do you see how this misinformation is not only untrue, but damning, misleading, harmful to travellers, and very damaging to residents that are trying to support their children and families from the income they derive working in the area?
> 
> 
> Then come back and write your'e "_disappointed in that when people voice an opinion, naive or dumb as it may be, some of you feel it a right to attack their beliefs, whatever they may be if they are not consistent with your own"_.
> 
> I feel pretty strongly others are dissappointed in people spreading damaging lies made up to support their "opinion". This is the last I'll say - shame on you. That whooshing sound is your crediblity leaving this web forum!



I think you are way out of line.  Everyone has the right to express their opinion.


----------



## Phydeaux

pranas said:


> I think you are way out of line.  Everyone has the right to express their opinion.



No, it is actually you that is out of line, and missing the point entirely, unless you're just trying to stir things up again. Did you miss the fact that the individual has already apologized and retracted?  

As pointed out above very eloquently and accurately "_There is a HUGE difference between attacking someone's opinions and/or beliefs vs. attacking misinformation"_.

Now let's let this go, shall we? :annoyed:


----------



## PStreet1

Anyone fearful of going to Mexico absolutely should stay out of Mexico for his safety. No one should plan a vacation expecting to worry the whole time; that's no vacation. Anyone who feels that way about Mexico should definitely avoid it. 

I do not understand, however, why any article anyone posts which attempts to put a rational perspective on violence in Mexico (which is drug related and really has nothing to do with tourists), causes all of those who know more about Mexico and what happens day to day, despite never being in the country more than 7 days at a time on an occasional vacation, to find another drug killing article to post triumphantly. 

Mexico is made up of 31 states; not all are considered to be a problem, even by the U.S. State Department. In fact, only 11 of the 31 states are mentioned by the state department 

Mexico had over 113 million people in 2010; most of them aren't involved in drug cartels. 

How many people actually visit Mexico per year? 22.67 million people visited Mexico during 2011, growing 2% from the previous year. Mexico is ranked as the 10th most visited country in the world, according to the World Tourism Organization. 1.2 million Canadians visited Mexico (the largest number of whom visited Cancun) in 2009. Only the United States sent more tourists to Mexico in 2009, with 5.4 million. 

Ah, but how many were killed? 111 U.S. citizens were killed in Mexico last year, a third in just two cities. Almost all of them were involved in illicit vocations, usually the trafficking of guns, drugs, or people across the border. This is 111 out of close to 8 million visitors last year, with nearly 1 million of those being part- or full-time residents choosing Mexico over the U.S. or Canada. In 2010, 1,626, 200 Canadians visited Mexico; 6 were killed.  And, again, almost every one of the 111 (and the 6 Canadians) was actually involved in illicit activity, but generally, the American media reports only "American/Canadian killed ______________." They don't go on to explain that said American/Canadian had drug ties.  Surely, it is no shock that Americans and Canadians are sometimes involved in the drug trade.

This link takes you to a CNN piece on Mexico and safety http://jessicasmexico.wordpress.com...ico-board-of-tourism-a-different-perspective/. Do they point out that there are risks? yes--but there is a rational perspective. And, again, no one should go to Mexico who is going to be worried. Vacations are about relaxing, not worrying. 
Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_tourists_visit_Mexico_each_year#ixzz1we7Kwpjz 


No one in his right mind denies that drug violence is a problem in Mexico. Is it serious? Of course it is. 
Does that mean Mexicans are out to get tourists? No. 
Are there occasional incidents of violence against tourists? Yes, there are, but they are very, very occasional. Most states that have a large tourist business in the U.S. have problems with crimes against tourists---but those problems are rarely publicized in the U.S.--such news is not good for tourism. They are publicized in the U.K.; they are very concerned about the violence in the U.S. and about how unsafe it is to visit the U.S. 
http://travel.booklocker.com/2011/05/18/travel-safety-in-perspective-usa-vs-mexico/ 

You know who else had 111 murders in one year recently? Boston. And Las Vegas. And Orlando. Were any of the people murdered tourists to those cities? I suspect they were--at least a couple. 

Puerto Rico has a population of about 4 million. "Drug trafficking is at the root of most of the 1,136 homicides perpetrated in Puerto Rico in 2011, the highest number ever recorded....Puerto Rico’s [murder] rate peaked, exceeding even Mexico’s murder rate. The unmitigated demand for illegal drugs on the mainland US continues to fuel criminal violence on the Island." http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary...de-seeps-into-mainland-US-Washington-must-act Nobody running the news desks cares about Puerto Rico or has an incentive to make people scared of Puerto Ricans (by definition, they can’t be “illegal immigrants”), so this isn’t widely reported. Is Puerto Rico a dangerous place for the casual tourist; yes, it is. When on the island, there are constant warnings for tourists to beware of the areas they frequent, to beware of being out late, to beware of becoming isolated.....just to beware. Do I feel more threatened in Puerto Rico than I do just south of Tijuana or on a "normal" street in Tijuana? You bet. Am I safer in both those places than I am in Jamica? You bet. 

The point, I think, is obvious: don't go if it's going to worry you; that would be stupid. But don't assume that what bothers you is a cause for concern to the 8 million (or so) Canadians and Americans who choose to visit Mexico. They, obviously, feel safe enough to travel. And don't assume that a news article about an incident in one part of Mexico applies to all of Mexico; Cancun, for example, is almost 1500 miles from Jarez. *Mexico is the 15th largest country in the world. It's 3 times the size of Texas; it's the size of Spain, the U.K., France, Italy, and Germany COMBINED. A news article from one area has nothing to do with another area. 
*


----------



## K&PFitz

I've posted somewhere in this thread before my opinion that there are areas in Mexico where tourist are very safe.  My opinion is based on visiting Mexico for four consecutive years.  

Notice this line in the article that re-started this discussion:
The Zetas are based in Nuevo Laredo, in Tamaulipas state just across the border from Laredo, Texas.

I think that an American would be a fool to go to Nuevo Laredo.

But Cancun and Puerto Vallarta, in my personal experience, are safe.  Also, I have two co-workers who travel to Cabo every year.  They tell me they feel Cabo is also very safe.  

We have gotten to know people who have moved to Mexico, living there full time.  They love it, and have had no experience with crime.  We also have met fellow Americans who have traveled there far more than we have.  They do not see the horrible drug cartel crime in the tourist areas.

I really think the media has overblown the danger.  Mexico is huge.  The border area is like a war zone.  But the tourist areas are beautiful.  And if you get away from the corporate-owned restaurant chains, Mexico is also inexpensive.

Yes, there are crimes, especially late at night, when the drinks kick in.  There are petty thefts, too, just like anywhere.  But the mass murders and decapitations are not happening in PV or Cancun or Cabo.

If the country doesn't appeal to you, fine.  But if you are interested in going, my opinion, based on my experience and that of my friends, is that you can travel there without fear.


----------



## easyrider

We have been going to Mexico for the last 10 years as snowbirds. The 3 places we like are Southern Baja, Puerto Vallarta and Yucatan. 

We drive any where we want. We stay out as late as we want, where ever we want. 

Been stuck in the middle of nowhere and had good luck with locals and Canadians to the rescue more often than I like to admit.

We just have nothing but good times in Mexico. Last year we were there for almost a month splitting time between Yucatan and South Baja. 

I have never seen a violent crime committed in Mexico. I cant say the same for home. 


Bill


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## PStreet1

K&PFitz said:


> Mexico is huge.  The border area is like a war zone.
> .



Bear in mind that the border area is huge also.  We live more than half the year only 30 miles south of Tijuana.  On a weekly basis, we probably cross the border twice a week, making 4 trips a week through Tijuana.  We have many, many friends who live here as much as we do or full time.  They, too, cross the border 2 or 3 times a week (to see a movie, shop, see a doctor, etc.)  NOT ONE has ever had a problem--and some of them have been here more than 20 years (we've been here over 13).

Tijuana does, indeed, have a "bad part of town."  It's on the far, far east side of Tijuana, a city of several million.  As a tourist, you are on the far, far west side, along the ocean.  You'd have to work hard at getting to the part of Tijuana that isn't safe--unlike L.A. where if you take the wrong free way exit, you can be in real trouble, or East St. Louis, where any free way exit taken could/probably would result in your being robbed and the car stripped, and maybe more.  Tijuana is, obviously, onthe border, and it isn't a war zone.  It's safe (except for the far, far east side); it has lovely restaurants and nice boulevards, a far cry from a war zone.  

As I said above, Mexico is the size of the U.K., Spain, France, Italy, and Germany COMBINED.  The border is 1,969 miles.  Some of those 1,969 miles are dangerous, Juarez/Neuvo Laredo/part of Tijuana (though violence is waaaay down in Tijuana)-----but the dangerous part is not even all cities on the border, and not all parts of those cities.  We wouldn't be here if we weren't safe; we'd stay in our home in the U.S.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

PStreet1 said:


> Bear in mind that the border area is huge also.  We live more than half the year only 30 miles south of Tijuana. ...


Observations and information provided by people who have actual experience and knowledge mean nothing to those who have have already made up their minds and are simply looking for information to validate their belief.

There are many people who choose to believe that the entire country of Mexico is a terribly dangerous location, and they will believe what they want to believe.

It's almost classic - one of the great values of traveling is to open one's mind, learn about local cultures, and break stereotypes.  But first you've got to be willing to travel.


----------



## PStreet1

You are so right!  :whoopie: 

They know nothing, but think because they "saw it on tv" or saw a State Department warning, they've got the whole story

And they seem no have to awareness that the State Department warnings are mostly to cover their responsibility to have issued a warning so they can't be held accountable for "not having warned us."  Generally, they don't even read the warning and look to see what it does, in fact, pertain to.  I really have absolutely no problem with their having made the decision to never venture into Mexico; I do, however, have problems with their passing on their knowledge to others as if they actually did know something.


----------



## K&PFitz

"or East St. Louis, where any free way exit taken could/probably would result in your being robbed and the car stripped, and maybe more"

Now, PStreet1, you're hitting a little close to home there.  The killings usually don't really get going until after midnight.   

Whenever we're going to downtown St. Louis, we take an ESL exit towards the Casino Queen, and cross the historic Eads Bridge.  In fact, for Rams games, we've parked at the Casino (in ESL) and walked across the bridge.  

I drive through ESL many times during the day.  I would be very reluctant though, to stop anywhere, even at a well lighted gas station after midnight, as there have been a number of random crimes recently.

Thanks for the info on Tijuana.  We have an acquaintance in San Diego who says to avoid it, but it sounds like he doesn't have the full story.


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## PStreet1

I think San Diego people are among the worst sources of information.  They get the American news hype with a double whammy, and many of them are suprisingly afraid of Mexico.  We have a San Diego friend I "met" on line when she was afraid to cross the border.  They have now purchased a beautiful condo here and spend as much time in Mexico as they spend in San Diego.  The media really is hurting Mexico badly----and of course, you have to add in American ignorance of Mexican geography and the tendency to assume that if something happened "in Mexico" that means it's happening everywhere.

If you really want to be afraid, check out the google map of homicides in Chicago----now that's scary!
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...d=113815459076713258356.000463b77495ac9c316f8.
This one is out of date by a year or two, but other sites that are up-to-date don't have the map, and the map really helps point out the numbers.  There were 50 in May, 2012.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

13 shark attacks in Hawaii this year.

10th "knockout" game attack in several months in NYC.

And yet people are terrified of going to Mexico. Go figure.


----------



## midnight1

*travel from phoenix airport to san carlos*

has anyone rented a car in phoenix airport to drive to san carlos mexico?

can you do it?

how long of a drive?

how good are the roads?

how difficult crossing the border?

insurance?

is it a safe drive?

tia - midnight


----------



## Passepartout

It will take the better part of a day- 6-8 hours with breaks to cross the border and to see stuff. Border crossing is not a big thing, but you have to see 2-3 different desks/buildings. Customs, immigration, fruit/veggie inspection, car insurance/licensing.

It's freeway to Nogales, and good 2 lane highway inside Mexico. Do not drive it at night. There is open range (animals wandering loose) and HUMONGOUS speed bumps that are not well marked. They will take the bottom out of a car.

Other than that, it's not a bad drive. Yes, special Mexican insurance is required. 

Jim


----------



## mav

I am presently on my 14th or 15th trip to Mexico, and the only scary thing I have ever encountered here has been the timeshare salesmen.  Or the occasional stupid drunk, obnoxious American or Canadian judging from the accents. Can't figure out why people drink and then LOUDLY use vulgar language in conversation with their friends in hotel/timeshare lobbies?????  WOW! Last night in the lobby of the Royal Caribbean 4 to 6 guys were disgusting. Stupid drunk and cursing LOUDLY in conversion to each other. I felt really bad for the staff.


----------



## pittle

*We drive there each year, but use our own vehicle*

has anyone rented a car in phoenix airport to drive to san carlos mexico?

*Check this link   as it will give you the most current information about traveling to San Carlos.*

can you do it?   I understand that a few rental agencies will allow you to go to San Carlos. It is in the "No Hassle" zone which means that you do not need to get a "sticker" for your vehicle - but you do need the Mexican insurance.  I imagine that getting it through the rental companies it will be more expensive than what we pay. You would have to get the tourist visa if you are there more than 7 days. We do not need one when we go to Puerto Penasco (Rocky Point) - there is no place to get one there.  You could just drive on through if you are there for a week.  No one takes our Tourist Card back when we come home.  Just need your USA Passport to go through the Nogales crossing on the way home and that does take about an hour.   

how long of a drive?    From the airport, it would be about 2-1/2 hours to the Nogales Customs & Immigration stop.  Take the Truck Route road.  It is a 4 lane divided highway - Toll road without a lot of traffic. You stay on Hwy 15 Cuenta all the way until you see the Guaymas/San Carlos exit.  You will go through the town of Hermosillo on your way down. It is about 8 hours depending on how long it takes to get the paperwork.

how good are the roads?  The Toll Road is good.  They keep working on it.  We have driven down to Mazatlan 5 times and the roads are significantly better now. We stop in San Carlos on the way down to Mazatlan.

how difficult crossing the border? I pretty much answered that above.  Since we have to get the vehicle permit, it takes a while as we have to have lots of paperwork showing that we need copies for.

insurance?  You will have to get that from the rental car company because you are not the owner of the car.

is it a safe drive?  Yes


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## Passepartout

Here is a link to car rental agencies in Phoenix (some may be off-airport (an even  better deal) that allow cars to go as much as 250 miles into Mexico: http://www.puerto-penasco.com/cars.html There is info here on insurance, border crossing, etc.

Jim


----------



## Passepartout

Passepartout said:


> Here are some rental agencies that allow it: http://www.puerto-penasco.com/cars.html
> 
> It will take the better part of a day- 6-8 hours with breaks to cross the border and to see stuff. Border crossing is not a big thing, but you have to see 2-3 different desks/buildings. Customs, immigration, fruit/veggie inspection, car insurance/licensing.
> 
> It's freeway to Nogales, and good 2 lane highway inside Mexico. Do not drive it at night. There is open range (animals wandering loose) and HUMONGOUS speed bumps that are not well marked. They will take the bottom out of a car.
> 
> Other than that, it's not a bad drive. Yes, special Mexican insurance is required.
> 
> Jim



Edited to correct.


----------



## PStreet1

Here's a very informative site for information on safety in Mexico:

www.howsafeismexico.com

Be sure to note the comparisons on the left hand side.  AND bear in mind that what little violence there is occurs between members of the cartels--and while that is regretable, it has absolutely nothing to do with me or anyone visiting Mexico; don't make contacts to buy/traffic drugs and you won't encounter any cartel violence at all.


----------



## andex

I have vacationed a few times in Mexico always had a great time. Never ever felt at risk. Every times I read on it Problem seems to be centered around border towns! 
Haha Zoom forward a few years and I am in San Diego this December with my family (7 and 10 year old) I am planning on doing a round trip boarder crossing on foot during the day?(an experience for the kids) I feel totally vulnerable with two kids. 
Am I off my rocker. Or am I letting the hyped get to me? Sorry I didn't read through the 13 pages! I did post a pic of us!


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## dioxide45

*US bars government employees from traveling to Acapulco*

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-bars-government-employees-traveling-acapulco-201111037.html


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## AnnaS

dioxide45 said:


> https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-bars-government-employees-traveling-acapulco-201111037.html




Thank you.

We went for our Honeymoon (wow almost 34 years ago) and I know we will never be going back to visit - we would have loved to go back at least once.  We absolutely loved Las Brisas resort too.  I remember also about 9/10 (?) years ago my son went for Spring Break (college) and was worried then.  I can't imagine many visiting today.


----------



## easyrider

Recently medical safety has been on my mind regarding the places we like to travel to in the winter months. Here are some medical facilities links for the Puerto Vallarta area. If you have a medical safety idea for the Puerto Vallarta area please post it on this thread. 

In the USA we use 911 for emergencies. In Mexico the emergency number is 060. 

Puerto Vallarta has many medical facilities. After looking at web sites for hospitals it looks like Cornerstone Hospital might be a good choice as this facility was built to the same standards as the Cornerstone Hospitals in Texas and they accept most American insurance plans. From what I can tell these two medical facilities can provide care for heart issues, strokes and major trauma.

Cornerstone Hospital Puerto Vallarta
Address:  Av. de los Tules # 136, Col. Diaz Ordaz, Puerto Vallarta (beside Plaza Caracol)
Phone: +52 (322) 226-3700
http://hcornerstone.mx

San Javier Hospital Puerto Vallarta
Address: Blvd. Francisco Medina Ascencio 2760, North Hotel Zone, C.P. 48333, Puerto Vallarta
Phone: +52 (322) 226-1010
Website: http://www.sanjavier.com.mx

A smaller clinic called Amerimed would be able to provide help with many health issues. They are located across the street from San Javier Hospital.
Address: Blvd. Francisco Medina Ascencio 3970, Col. Villa las Flores, Puerto Vallarta.
Phone: +52 (322) 226-2080
Website: http://www.amerimed.com.mx


If your in Nuevo Vallarta there is a San Javier Hospital near Paradise Village and across the street from the Hard Rock Hotel near the Grand Oddesey Casino.
Address: Paseo De Los Cocoteros 55, Naútico Turístico, 63732 Nuevo Vallarta, Nay., Mexico
Phone: +52 322 226 8181
http://www.sanjavier.com.mx/hospitales/riviera-nayarit/

Air Ambulance to the USA from Puerto Vallarta companies.

Air Critical Air
https://aircriticalcare.com/air-ambulance/north-america/mexico/puerto-vallarta

Air Care 1
http://www.airambulanceone.com/mexico-air-ambulance-service/


It is a good idea to purchase trip insurance with medical care included, imo. I usually purchase this when I purchase my air fare. 



> *Hospital & Health tips while in Puerto Vallarta*
> 
> If your personal insurance does not cover health problems outside USA or Canada, consider purchasing travel & health insurance.
> Medicare does not cover medical hospitals and medical care in Vallarta or anywhere else in Mexico.
> Carry your insurance information and/or card in your wallet at all times.
> You'll be required to pay a deposit upon admission at a Puerto Vallarta Hospital, it can be paid in cash or with a credit card.
> Inform the staff of any allergies you may have and tell them of any medication or prescription drugs you are taking at the time.
> The hospital admission should contact the local consulate and inform them you are in a hospital



Bill


----------



## easyrider

Medical facilities in Southern Baja from Loreto to Cabo are mainly in the larger cities with the largest hospital located in La Paz. While there are cardiologists in Southern Baja I think most tourist that need help regarding heart attack or stroke are flown to Guadalajara, Ensenada or San Diego. I have an ex-pat American friend that lives in San Jose that went to San Diego for his sudden heart attack. He used an air ambulance. 

Amerimed in Cabo has a cath lab and their webpage includes cardiac surgery.

Amerimed Cabo
Blvd. Lázaro Cárdenas s/n, Edificio Pioneros L-5, Col. El Médano, Cabo San Lucas, 23410, Baja California Sur, México
+52 624 105 8500
https://www.health-tourism.com/medical-centers/amerimed-american-hospitals/
http://www.amerimed.com.mx/

Amerimed San Jose del Cabo
SJD: +52(624) 105-8550

The largest regional State hospital is in La Paz.

Hospital Generalaria Juan María de Salva Tierra
Paseo de Los Deportistas 5115 8 de Octubre Segunda Secc
23085 La Paz , Baja California Sur Mexico
+52 612 175 0500

There is a small hospital in Loreto. It is open 24/7 but lacks in cardiac care. If you think your having a heart attack or stroke the closest facility seems to be in La Paz. La Paz is a 4 1/2 hour drive from Loreto. Loreto has an International Airport so air ambulance is available.

Hospital de La Comunidad de Loreto

Air Ambulance in Baja. If you think you might need the air ambulance you should call the service before travel to make certain the service is available.

http://www.airambulanceone.com/mexico-air-ambulance-service/


Bill


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## easyrider

Regarding the air ambulance services out of Mexico to the USA. If you have a trip insurance you must call them for a list of contracted air ambulance services. The requirement for the air ambulance is that the client is in stabilized condition at a medical facility. The air ambulance does a bed to bed service meaning their critical care team receives the client at the hospital bed and delivers the client to a hospital bed. It can take hours for the entire transfer to take place. The cost is quoted per flight but an estimated average cost is under $40,000.

Bill


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## Maple_Leaf

easyrider said:


> Regarding the air ambulance services out of Mexico to the USA ...The requirement for the air ambulance is that the client is in stabilized condition at a medical facility. The air ambulance does a bed to bed service meaning their critical care team receives the client at the hospital bed and delivers the client to a hospital bed. It can take hours for the entire transfer to take place.



Cabo sounds too risky.  Air ambulance "bed-to-bed" service sounds like bed-to-cemetery service if the local hospital cannot effectively stabilise a cardiac patient.  I'll stick with Puerto Vallarta when I travel to Mexico.


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## easyrider

From what I can tell, if you are a tourist in need of medical care in Mexico, the care is available in all of the large tourist destinations and large cities at for profit type facilities. This care is somewhat expensive and usually requires an upfront payment. Credit cards can be used at many of these facilities for payment. 

Trip insurance policies should be considered. Most policies need to be purchased at the time you are booking your trip. If you wait too long after the first bookings of a planned trip the policy has many exclusions such as pre-existing conditions. Most primary medical insurance you have in the USA will not provide any coverage in Mexico. Even so, it would still be worth checking into, imo. 

I scuba and have DAN insurance for diving which means I am a member of the Divers Alert Network. This gives me coverage for all my dives through out the year. This membership also allows me to purchase trip insurance that covers pre-existing conditions up to 24 hours of my final trip payment. 

If anyone has any good ideas of getting trip insurance for Mexico trips after the bookings to include pre-existing conditions, please chime in.

Bill


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## easyrider

I did find trip insurance that included "sudden onset of a stable pre-existing condition" which works for me. Hopefully, I won't need to see how well these policies work. The policy provider is geobluetravelinsurance.com and the product is called Voyagers Choice. While this policy is used mainly for cruise ship passengers it can also be purchased for land based trips. 

There is a real need to know where to go in case of an emergency when traveling to Mexico because there are so many pricing scams regarding treatment. Here is a recent article about a woman who was forced to pay outrageous amounts for care in Cabo. There is a link at the bottom of the article that I will link here too with a list of the good hospitals in Baja.

http://www.khq.com/story/36675166/spokane-woman-faces-medical-nightmare-while-on-vacation

https://mx.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/25/2016/10/BajaHospitals.pdf

Bill


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## Karen G

easyrider said:


> http://www.khq.com/story/36675166/spokane-woman-faces-medical-nightmare-while-on-vacation
> 
> https://mx.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/25/2016/10/BajaHospitals.pdf
> 
> Bill


Wow! Thanks for the info. What a scary situation for that Spokane woman.


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## vantovidanta

This is all i have to contibute at this time

https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/advisories


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## PamMo

When someone posts an isolated crime report on Mexico, many Tuggers feel the need to jump in and respond. I've been going to Mexico for decades and have certainly been one of those "defenders". But, this keeps the thread at the top of the Mexico forum (thus, more eyeballs and more comments), even if it has nothing to do with timesharing, or the places most Tuggers go, or general travel in Mexico. Old stories get rehashed over and over.

I am NOT a proponent of censoring news, but the threads get so long and go off on tangents. If someone is scared and doesn't think Mexico is a safe place to travel, we're not going to change their mind. I'm not stupid. I KNOW Mexico has problems, but I weigh that against the rewards of travelling in a beautiful country, rich in history and culture,  and countless kind and generous people.

Can we please let the posts go, and not respond? Read the posts and move on if it's just someone venting. If it's an inappropriate or egregious post, flag it for a moderator to deal with.


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## bbodb1

PamMo,

While I understand your point, it wasn't all that long ago when I was a new member around here.  While I did spend some time looking back through some threads that caught my interest, and searching for other specific items having to do with potential vacation destinations there is always the possibility that someone(s) are new around here and may be considering a possible vacation south of the border.  Information like this may indeed be on point with newer members (again, those especially considering a trip to Mexico) and should give them something to consider as they consider potential vacation destinations.   I agree we are not likely to change anyone's mind, but if we do cause them to become more aware of their surroundings and situations they may enter into, a greater good will be served IMO as traveling in Mexico certainly has a different set of aspects to consider.


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## klpca

And maybe in addition to not commenting (I am guilty of this) we could report it to the moderator as ask for it to be moved to the pinned "safety" thread.


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## davidvel

If that were the standard, there would not be many threads on TUG.


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## dioxide45

Some will say I am "sticking my head in the sand", but I have simply started to use the "Ignore Thread" feature, I don't see the threads after the first time. I know the safety concerns, I am not going to make a decision about traveling to Mexico based on a few news stories posted here. There are other sources of information.

No need to reply directly to my post, I won't see it again after this.


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## TravelTime

IMO, I am upset with Mexican timeshare Tuggers because I feel their responses are insensitive to the Mexican people. As long as an American is not killed, they do not care if 30,000 Mexicans a year are being killed. Just say “ignore thread” and put your head in the sand so you can enjoy Mexico without guilt. It seems like as long as Mexican timeshare Tuggers can enjoy their timeshares in the hotel zone, they could care less about the problems in Mexico. To me, Mexico is experiencing the worst human rights crisis in its history right now. My intention is not to scare people. I only posted the recent murder of Americans to show that EVERYONE in Mexico is affected. I am looking for empathy, understanding and caring by the Mexican timeshare Tuggers. You can’t ignore that Mexico has at least 10-15 of the most dangerous and violent cities in the world right now. No wonder Americans are viewed as taking advantage of poorer countries. Tuggers keep saying they will continue traveling to Mexico because it is safe in the hotel zone. Instead, Mexican timeshare Tuggers should consider traveling as humanitarians in the inner cities where there is a lot of violence and trying to help the Mexicans. It is easy to sit on the beach sipping Margaraitas while mexicans are slaughtering each other as well as the occasional foreigner, priest and politician. Why don’t the mexican timeshare Tuggers do something to help Mexico? Go explore the drug zones. Go learn about the culture. Learn Spanish. I am half Hispanic, I speak Spanish, my father came to this country at age 14. My father has experienced extreme discrimination in the USA. I could go on and on about my experiences but I will stop here.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

TravelTime said:


> IMO, I am upset with Mexican timeshare Tuggers because I feel their responses are insensitive to the Mexican people. As long as an American is not killed, they do not care if 30,000 Mexicans a year are being killed. ....... Why don’t the mexican timeshare Tuggers do something to help Mexico? .... Go learn about the culture. Learn Spanish.



Dear Traveltime ,
I understand this is an important issue for you . Here are my own thoughts .

I cannot personally “fix”Mexico’s  problems . I hope the upcoming election
provides a positive change .

What I can do is visit in 2019 - and give Hector a tip that reflects the excellent service he provides . Hector is a 16 year employee at the Mayan Palace PV Marina and works hard serving guests at the pool .

I can make sure - I again learn in Feb 2019 , the name of the housekeeper who cleans our suite each day. I can make sure to tip that person as well - so that they and their family have a little more income .

I also will again ask if she would like any unused food etc that we have left on check out day .I then get boxes from Oxxo to pack it in and write a note in Spanish saying it is for xxx and sign our name and room number . I believe this helps someone .
( whether used by the recipient ,or shared by her with others )

We try to explore beyond the resort and generally do so using the bus system
because we enjoy it , & feel we see more of Mexico that way . When we do take a cab - I tip the driver - because his income is based on what each day’s customers provide .

I have read some of the history of Mexico . From that limited knowledge ,I disagree with your assessment of this being the worst humanitarian crisis in the history of Mexico . I think the Mexican Revolution period was worse . The estimates are over 1 million + killed & 1 million + refugees - some of whom went
to safety across the Rio Grande and never returned . The current issues may be closer to the “Cristo Wars “of the 1930’s .

I personally feel comfortable visiting Mexico , and will go again . While there , we spend money that circulates into the Mexican economy , and try to spend some of it with local business .

I doubt if I will ever be fluent in Spanish . I try to learn a little more each year .


----------



## PamMo

TravelTime, I would like to assure you that MANY Tuggers care deeply about the people in Mexico. You might be surprised by the number of people who have befriended locals, and have generously donated to social causes (schools, food banks, health clinics, animal shelters, environment, micro-funding local businesses, etc.) in the communities we've come to love. Not all of us are the self-centered margarita swilling callous tourists you think we might be.


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## Steve Fatula

I would say the problem with discussing Mexican social issues is that this is a timeshare forum that tries to distance itself from politics and most social issues. So, I try and tread lightly on such discussions. It doesn't mean I do not care about Mexicans or Brazilians or any other group. It just means it's a timeshare forum and discussions are supposed to be directly related to timesharing. So, the plight of those outside of timeshare areas I try and not discuss as much as possible, though am guilty weighing in here and there but generally only as it relates to tourist zones. I am sorry if it appears that I for one do not care. That is not the case, however, it's the way I understand the rules of the site. Though, I have yet to see one of those threads shut down, so, am beginning to wonder if I have that right!


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## TravelTime

I should have said it is the worst humanitarian crisis in modern Mexican history. Of course, we can look backwards to worse periods in the history of all countries. The world is a much better place now than in the far past - everywhere. The standard of living worldwide is the best now than ever. So I am just comparing to recent Mexican history, not the 1800s or early 1900s. Gosh, the worst humanitarian crisis was Germany in the 1930s and 1940s. It is unbelievable to realize that less than 100 years ago these atrocities happened. This is not a political statement. This is a human rights comment. I hope that is allowed on TUG.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

Steve Fatula said:


> I would say the problem with discussing Mexican social issues is that this is a timeshare forum that tries to distance itself from politics and most social issues .....Though, I have yet to see one of those threads shut down, so, am beginning to wonder if I have that right!



Karen G . - the Mexican Forum Moderator has definitely shut down threads .

I appreciate her goal of being a moderator /. not the “thought police “
I am sure it is not always fun - unpaid work .


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## mikenk

TravelTime said:


> IMO, I am upset with Mexican timeshare Tuggers because I feel their responses are insensitive to the Mexican people. As long as an American is not killed, they do not care if 30,000 Mexicans a year are being killed. Just say “ignore thread” and put your head in the sand so you can enjoy Mexico without guilt. It seems like as long as Mexican timeshare Tuggers can enjoy their timeshares in the hotel zone, they could care less about the problems in Mexico. To me, Mexico is experiencing the worst human rights crisis in its history right now. My intention is not to scare people. I only posted the recent murder of Americans to show that EVERYONE in Mexico is affected. I am looking for empathy, understanding and caring by the Mexican timeshare Tuggers. You can’t ignore that Mexico has at least 10-15 of the most dangerous and violent cities in the world right now. No wonder Americans are viewed as taking advantage of poorer countries. Tuggers keep saying they will continue traveling to Mexico because it is safe in the hotel zone. Instead, Mexican timeshare Tuggers should consider traveling as humanitarians in the inner cities where there is a lot of violence and trying to help the Mexicans. It is easy to sit on the beach sipping Margaraitas while mexicans are slaughtering each other as well as the occasional foreigner, priest and politician. Why don’t the mexican timeshare Tuggers do something to help Mexico? Go explore the drug zones. Go learn about the culture. Learn Spanish. I am half Hispanic, I speak Spanish, my father came to this country at age 14. My father has experienced extreme discrimination in the USA. I could go on and on about my experiences but I will stop here.



Traveltime,

I will assume your intentions are good. However, I would like to make several points for you to consider.

I find this post you use frequently extremely difficult to read. Please use paragraphs.

I find it extremely condescending to us  in the Mexican forums as to our motivations, intentions, and feelings about the Mexican people and culture. I go to Mexico for a lot of reasons - one of which is I love the Mexican culture and the sincere friendliness of the people. The best thing I can do is to spend my money there in a lot of ways. I do not have the skills or capability to convert the drug czars to be good citizens.

I find many of your human rights and safety comments very questionable - Yes they have a major drug crisis to deal with. If you want human rights violations, go to Venezuela as a starter. I have a son in law from there; we are trying to get his parents out. 

you say your intent is not to scare people from going to Mexico - sorry, but to me, that is exactly what your intent seems to be. We do not stay in the hotel zones when in Mexico - we go to surrounding towns and cities and mingle with the people - and are completely safe doing so. It really isn't rocket science to learn where is safe and not safe - whether in downtown Puerto Vallarta or downtown Chicago.

Mike


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## easyrider

TravelTime said:


> IMO, I am upset with Mexican timeshare Tuggers because I feel their responses are insensitive to the Mexican people. As long as an American is not killed, they do not care if 30,000 Mexicans a year are being killed. Just say “ignore thread” and put your head in the sand so you can enjoy Mexico without guilt. It seems like as long as Mexican timeshare Tuggers can enjoy their timeshares in the hotel zone, they could care less about the problems in Mexico. To me, Mexico is experiencing the worst human rights crisis in its history right now. My intention is not to scare people. I only posted the recent murder of Americans to show that EVERYONE in Mexico is affected. I am looking for empathy, understanding and caring by the Mexican timeshare Tuggers. You can’t ignore that Mexico has at least 10-15 of the most dangerous and violent cities in the world right now. No wonder Americans are viewed as taking advantage of poorer countries. Tuggers keep saying they will continue traveling to Mexico because it is safe in the hotel zone. Instead, Mexican timeshare Tuggers should consider traveling as humanitarians in the inner cities where there is a lot of violence and trying to help the Mexicans. It is easy to sit on the beach sipping Margaraitas while mexicans are slaughtering each other as well as the occasional foreigner, priest and politician. Why don’t the mexican timeshare Tuggers do something to help Mexico? Go explore the drug zones. Go learn about the culture. Learn Spanish. I am half Hispanic, I speak Spanish, my father came to this country at age 14. My father has experienced extreme discrimination in the USA. I could go on and on about my experiences but I will stop here.




My thoughts on your "awareness of Mexico " posts are that they are targeted at affluent people who vacation in Mexico in contrast to the regular Mexican citizens that for the most part are living in third world conditions. It is a fact that many Mexican citizens are lured into the drug trades, as for many, there isn't anything better economically. 

Your posts seem to indicate that you may feel that the many tourists to Mexico contribute to the problems when the fact is that tourism in Mexico is very good for the Mexican economy. The employment opportunities that the many resorts provide are solid. 

Mexico needs to fix Mexico. People going to resorts are not the problem with Mexico. The problems with Mexico are to many to list in any order by me but being that you are vary familiar with the culture, I am certain you know better than I what these problems are. I can not understand how you would think people going to the resorts to vacation or expats who live in Mexico are the problem. 

It is pretentious of you to assume that any group of people going to Mexico does so to take advantage of the Mexican people, especially if your heritage is Mexican. If an American said what you posted in reverse it could be considered some what racist or ignorant. Consider what you said about "humanitarian efforts". What if I told a Mexican tourist that they should travel to crime ridden areas of America while they were on vacation in America and they should learn English. It doesn't sound right because it isn't right.

Bill


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## easyrider

PamMo said:


> When someone posts an isolated crime report on Mexico, many Tuggers feel the need to jump in and respond. I've been going to Mexico for decades and have certainly been one of those "defenders". But, this keeps the thread at the top of the Mexico forum (thus, more eyeballs and more comments), even if it has nothing to do with timesharing, or the places most Tuggers go, or general travel in Mexico. Old stories get rehashed over and over.
> 
> I am NOT a proponent of censoring news, but the threads get so long and go off on tangents. If someone is scared and doesn't think Mexico is a safe place to travel, we're not going to change their mind. I'm not stupid. I KNOW Mexico has problems, but I weigh that against the rewards of travelling in a beautiful country, rich in history and culture,  and countless kind and generous people.
> 
> Can we please let the posts go, and not respond? Read the posts and move on if it's just someone venting. If it's an inappropriate or egregious post, flag it for a moderator to deal with.



I agree 100%.

Bill


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## TravelTime

Everyone has good points. Thank you for helping me see this from a different perspective.

My father is Hispanic/Latino not Mexican specifically. Most of my older family members never learned to speak English after moving to this country. That was very bad for their ability to work and limited their opportunities. My father still speaks English with an accent (although he writes perfectly in English) and he is ashamed of his accent.

Personally, I think it is a positive to learn a little bit of a foreign language if it is somewhere you travel to regularly. I think it is also a positive to travel inland and see how the locals live - whether it is in the USA or a foreign country. It was a shame my grandparents lived in the USA for over 40 years and never learned English.

I appreciate the responses above because it sounds like many Mexican timeshare Tuggers care deeply about Mexico and the human rights issues there. I am equally concerned about human rights issues worldwide, including the USA, but I am not posting about that because it borders on being political, which is against TUG forum rules. But it might be nice to have a human rights thread in the TUG lounge. I did post an article about Venezuela but I did not comment much on it for fear of stirring the post. All I can say without being political is that when I was a child and teenager and even young adult, Venezuela was the crown jewel economically and socially of Latin America.

I will not be posting or commenting on this topic again. It is too personal to me. I relate to all of Latin America as that is my experience since childhood.


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## Karen G

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Karen G . - the Mexican Forum Moderator has definitely shut down threads .
> 
> I appreciate her goal of being a moderator /. not the “thought police “
> I am sure it is not always fun - unpaid work .


Thanks, T-Dot!  I've been away from TUG and the internet for the past ten days as we were on a cruise, but now I'm back and catching up on the discussions.  I'm happy to see that everyone in this thread has been very nice and no fist fights have broken out.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

TravelTime said:


> IMO, I am upset with Mexican timeshare Tuggers because I feel their responses are insensitive to the Mexican people. As long as an American is not killed, they do not care if 30,000 Mexicans a year are being killed. Just say “ignore thread” and put your head in the sand so you can enjoy Mexico without guilt.



Great.  That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. I might add that you don't know most of us, you've never communicated with most of us (save through this board), and you have little knowledge of who we are as people and what our concerns are and aren't. So IMO, you are making some broad and damning statements about us, presuming much in the absence of real information. 

I'm also not sure what we are supposed to feel guilty about when we go to Mexico. The country has invested greatly in creating infrastructure, and has created a welcoming environment for tourists.  Are we supposed to feel guilty for rewarding their investment and taking them up on their hospitality?

******

It's not clear to me how tourists staying away from Mexico is going to help Mexicans get through the current crisis. Since you seem to feel this is a problem, could you help us understand the nexus?


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## TravelTime

I am done with posting on the Mexican timesharing section. I apologize for upsetting you and others.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

TravelTime said:


> I am done with posting on the Mexican timesharing section. I apologize for upsetting you and others.



Dear Traveltime ,
I for one was not upset . I sincerely hope you continue to visit the Mexican Forum & post .

I did feel you post was emotionally driven out of concern for the people impacted by the issue .
My response was based on what I personally can do , while visiting Puerto Vallarta Mexico in Feb 2019 .

I personally prefer to analyze and come up with a plan & structure that will work for me . My own emotional responses
generally don;t help me accomplish that goal . Perhaps for you ,the emotional response helps you better deal with the topic .

TUG is a forum . Give and take responses are expected .


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## T_R_Oglodyte

TravelTime said:


> I am done with posting on the Mexican timesharing section. I apologize for upsetting you and others.


Please rest assured that you did not upset me - though I acknowledge that could easily be perceived from the tenor of my posts.  And I also apologize if my posts upset you.


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## easyrider

TravelTime said:


> I am done with posting on the Mexican timesharing section. I apologize for upsetting you and others.



Why not post something positive about Mexico once in a while. Like 10 positives to 1 negative. None of your posts , or anybodys posts for that matter, are anything more than interesting or entertaining , with the exception of an occasional gem post here or there.

Bill


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## PamMo

TravelTime, please don't give up on this forum. We all learn from reading and trying to understand other's perspectives. My original post was not meant to censor anyone, and I truly regret, and sincerely apologise if that's what I've caused.

I was simply hoping we could find a way to minimize random crime reports from dominating this forum. We rehash the "Mexico is dangerous" vs "Mexico is safe" debate every time someone posts a new story about a crime somewhere in Mexico.


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## TravelTime

easyrider said:


> Why not post something positive about Mexico once in a while. Like 10 positives to 1 negative. None of your posts , or anybodys posts for that matter, are anything more than interesting or entertaining , with the exception of an occasional gem post here or there.
> 
> Bill



I have posted many positives about Mexico but no one notices that part. For example, my many visits to Mexico, my love of the local people, my love of Mexican architecture and art, my ability to speak Spanish, my care about human rights in Mexico and for Mexican immigrants in the USA. I have many Mexican friends too. I’ve posted great things about the Pueblo Bonito timeshare company and the Intercontinental Hotels in Cancun and Cozumel. I am a scuba diver and love diving in Cozumel. I love Puerto Vallarta. But the fact is Mexico is experiencing an increase in crime and murders and it is a human rights crisis. That is my worry and concern for the Mexican people. To be honest, I am not too worried about Americans in Mexico since the Mexican government is trying to protect foreign tourists. I only posted the recent story about the American couple and their dog that was murdered because it seems Americans only pay attention when an American is killed. Americans are not victims in Mexico. The Mexican people are the ones in pain and distress.


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## VacationForever

I think we all can agree that Mexico in tourist cities like Cancun and Cabos are generally safe but there is a low risk that you may get caught in a crossfire by being at a wrong place (or maybe right place) at the wrong time.  It is not very different from being in the US, you can go about minding your own business and still get shot at or run over.

There is enough information out there that we have to decide for ourselves whether we want to travel to Mexico or stay away.  There is not a need to hash and rehash.


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## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> I think we all can agree that Mexico in tourist cities like Cancun and Cabos are generally safe but there is a low risk that you may get caught in a crossfire by being at a wrong place (or maybe right place) at the wrong time.  It is not very different from being in the US, you can go about minding your own business and still get shot at or run over.
> 
> There is enough information out there that we have to decide for ourselves whether we want to travel to Mexico or stay away.  There is not a need to hash and rehash.



This is exactly what bothers me. I like you, VacationForever and I like many of your posts. My problem is that everytime we discuss crime in Mexico it focuses on whether Americans are safe or not. That is missing my point. But I am tired too of this discussion.


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## PigsDad

TravelTime said:


> This is exactly what bothers me. I like you, VacationForever and I like many of your posts. My problem is that everytime we discuss crime in Mexico it focuses on whether Americans are safe or not. That is missing my point. But I am tired too of this discussion.


I really do admire your passion for the Mexican people, but you have to realize that this is the "Mexico _*Timesharing*_" forum, not a general "Mexico" forum.  I think it is perfectly fine for this forum to focus on topics related to timesharing in Mexico, and just because people don't want to discuss other issues here not related to timesharing, it doesn't necessarily mean that they don't care about the human rights, crime, etc. that is plaguing many parts of Mexico -- it just means that they may not feel it is an appropriate topic in _this_ forum.

Cheers!
Kurt


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## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> This is exactly what bothers me. I like you, VacationForever and I like many of your posts. My problem is that everytime we discuss crime in Mexico it focuses on whether Americans are safe or not. That is missing my point. But I am tired too of this discussion.


... and you are asking timesharing folks to go to dangerous areas to volunteer.  I am sorry, that is just a stupid proposition that you made.


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## TravelTime

Yes very stupid!


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## T_R_Oglodyte

TravelTime said:


> This is exactly what bothers me. I like you, VacationForever and I like many of your posts. My problem is that everytime we discuss crime in Mexico it focuses on whether Americans are safe or not. That is missing my point. But I am tired too of this discussion.



That's a valid point - it perhaps reflects people approaching the same issue from different directions. 

I'm going to respond that Mexico has an established tourism industry. It is a significant part of the economy; in locales such as Cancún, Puerto Vallarta, and Cabo tourism underpins the whole economy. IMHO - any reasonable response to the issues involving drug cartels/gangs needs to involve maintaining/enhancing/creating viable indigenous economic alternatives that present realistic opportunities for economic opportunity that do not involve becoming involving with a gang or cartel.  

*******

We put my money where our mouths are.  We routinely donate 10% to 20% of our income to organizations that we believe exist to make a change in the world.  One major recipient of our donations is an organization that is involved with transferring land ownership to indigenous peoples in Central America via a microlending program (started in 1995, before microlending became a "thing"), that leads to deeded transfer of land ownership.  The program includes training to facilitate transition from subsistence cropping (which is insufficient to pay off the loans) to economic cash crops.  The communities we are involved with through this organization have successfully placed cash crops, such as snow peas, to vendors such as Costco and Lord and Spencer. Families involved with this program have moved from subsistence level existence to actually having disposable cash to spend for such items as improved housing, better nutrition, and more use of medical services

We also provide significant support for a program that provides indigenous students in northern Guatemala a tuition-free and free supplies education through high school and even into college. The students we support come from families where the parents are functionally illiterate. They are amazed, and totally grateful, that their children have an opportunity for an education that they never had the opportunity to receive. Because when they were at that age, their parents were simply trying to stay alive in the middle of a civil war, where they and their children were targeted for genocide. They are so supportive that they don't demand that their children help in the fields or go into the forests to collect firewood - which is the norm for subsistence families.  They expect that their children go to school, and that once school is out the children study while it still light. The economic burden this places on these families is enormous; throughout the region farming by the entire is the norm for survival.  The sacrifices these families make to support their children's education is simply unimaginable to most of us living our sheltered lives in North America. Free tuition and supplies is actually the lesser amount of their financial support.

In the organizations that we support, gang  violence is a consistent issue and threat.  In the villages we have had young boys, teenagers, assassinated because they refused to join a gang. Or because they started to join and backed out.  We had another situation where a young man went to university, and was recruited into a gang.  To prove his loyalty he was commanded to return to his village, and execute all of the family members of a village leader. It was a test of loyalty.  Having done the deed, he would never be able to return to his family or the village, and he would be hunted by the police.  So from that point his existence would depend on entirely on the gang. 

He started the job, but, after significant maiming of the family members (including a near-death punctured lung), he realized he couldn't finish the job.  So he went on the lam, hunted by his gang members as well as the police, with no place in h is past that he could return to. And in Guatemala, falling into the hands of the police when you are hunted isn't much different from falling into the hands of a gang. He did respond, one time, to an outreach contact from the organization, where we were able to learn what was going on. But he disappeared afterward, and our contacts have no idea what has happened to him.

But in the midst of this we see progress.  We are now seeing young people, graduates of our programs, who are returning to the area to be teachers, agronomists, medical specialists, etc., giving back to the communities where they grew up instead of going to Guate City where there are better jobs, or taking off for the US. I think of one young woman, who typically would have been married by age 14 and a mother no later than age 16, going to University, returning as a community service worker after completing university, and getting married and having a child in her 20s, when she was more ready to provide care and support. She has been an inspiration to so many other young girls in the community, that there are options beyond getting married after puberty and starting a family while still a teenager.  We believe that many of the young girls who have stayed with our program after 8th grade (we have over a 50% retention rate for girls at that age) is due to her example. 

********

In reflection, I confess that I probably did react emotionally to my perception that I was being characterized as having my head in the sand and feeling that I was being castigated for enjoying Mexico without guilt.

So I apologize for posting with that emotional edge.


----------



## TravelTime

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> That's a valid point - it perhaps reflects people approaching the same issue from different directions.
> 
> I'm going to respond that Mexico has an established tourism industry. It is a significant part of the economy; in locales such as Cancún, Puerto Vallarta, and Cabo tourism underpins the whole economy. IMHO - any reasonable response to the issues involving drug cartels/gangs needs to involve maintaining/enhancing/creating viable indigenous economic alternatives that present realistic opportunities for economic opportunity that do not involve becoming involving with a gang or cartel.
> 
> *******
> 
> We put my money where our mouths are.  We routinely donate 10% to 20% of our income to organizations that we believe exist to make a change in the world.  One major recipient of our donations is an organization that is involved with transferring land ownership to indigenous peoples in Central America via a microlending program (started in 1995, before microlending became a "thing"), that leads to deeded transfer of land ownership.  The program includes training to facilitate transition from subsistence cropping (which is insufficient to pay off the loans) to economic cash crops.  The communities we are involved with through this organization have successfully placed cash crops, such as snow peas, to vendors such as Costco and Lord and Spencer. Families involved with this program have moved from subsistence level existence to actually having disposable cash to spend for such items as improved housing, better nutrition, and more use of medical services
> 
> We also provide significant support for a program that provides indigenous students in northern Guatemala a tuition-free and free supplies education through high school and even into college. The students we support come from families where the parents are functionally illiterate. They are amazed, and totally grateful, that their children have an opportunity for an education that they never had the opportunity to receive. Because when they were at that age, their parents were simply trying to stay alive in the middle of a civil war, where they and their children were targeted for genocide. They are so supportive that they don't demand that their children help in the fields or go into the forests to collect firewood - which is the norm for subsistence families.  They expect that their children go to school, and that once school is out the children study while it still light. The economic burden this places on these families is enormous; throughout the region farming by the entire is the norm for survival.  The sacrifices these families make to support their children's education is simply unimaginable to most of us living our sheltered lives in North America. Free tuition and supplies is actually the lesser amount of their financial support.
> 
> In the organizations that we support, gang  violence is a consistent issue and threat.  In the villages we have had young boys, teenagers, assassinated because they refused to join a gang. Or because they started to join and backed out.  We had another situation where a young man went to university, and was recruited into a gang.  To prove his loyalty he was commanded to return to his village, and execute all of the family members of a village leader. It was a test of loyalty.  Having done the deed, he would never be able to return to his family or the village, and he would be hunted by the police.  So from that point his existence would depend on entirely on the gang.
> 
> He started the job, but, after significant maiming of the family members (including a near-death punctured lung), he realized he couldn't finish the job.  So he went on the lam, hunted by his gang members as well as the police, with no place in h is past that he could return to. And in Guatemala, falling into the hands of the police when you are hunted isn't much different from falling into the hands of a gang. He did respond, one time, to an outreach contact from the organization, where we were able to learn what was going on. But he disappeared afterward, and our contacts have no idea what has happened to him.
> 
> But in the midst of this we see progress.  We are now seeing young people, graduates of our programs, who are returning to the area to be teachers, agronomists, medical specialists, etc., giving back to the communities where they grew up instead of going to Guate City where there are better jobs, or taking off for the US. I think of one young woman, who typically would have been married by age 14 and a mother no later than age 16, going to University, returning as a community service worker after completing university, and getting married and having a child in her 20s, when she was more ready to provide care and support. She has been an inspiration to so many other young girls in the community, that there are options beyond getting married after puberty and starting a family while still a teenager.  We believe that many of the young girls who have stayed with our program after 8th grade (we have over a 50% retention rate for girls at that age) is due to her example.
> 
> ********
> 
> In reflection, I confess that I probably did react emotionally to my perception that I was being characterized as having my head in the sand and feeling that I was being castigated for enjoying Mexico without guilt.
> 
> So I apologize for posting with that emotional edge.



Wow, I am truly impressed with your humanitarian work. I felt chills and pain running through my body as I read your story, especially about the boy commanded to murder his family and who actually started to do it. I had no idea it was this bad in some areas of Latin America. This is so sad. A tragedy. Congratulations to you for trying to make a difference. I wish you well in your work.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

You mention the crisis in Mexico.  It's actually much worse south of Mexico.  It just doesn't get press coverage like Mexico does.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

I for one am glad this particular thread was started & continued in the direction it did .

I am learning new things about my TUG - real - virtual friends who post in the Mexican Forum.

Steve / T_R_Oglodyte  - your post re: The Mexican Tourism infrastruction & the organizations  you contribute to , is as well written & logical as your post on DRI and how their points and UDI  works .
Please take this as a compliment - on all levels .
T-Dot - Traveller


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## TravelTime

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> You mention the crisis in Mexico.  It's actually much worse south of Mexico.  It just doesn't get press coverage like Mexico does.



Yes that is absolutely true. So sad.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

TravelTime said:


> Yes that is absolutely true. So sad.


After some thought, I think I want to make one last pushback on your previous posts.

I proffer that many of us who go to Mexico do so, in part, because we have an affinity for the people and the culture.  We do not have our heads in the sand; rather we are acutely aware of conditions in the country.

We do often emphatically counter those who paint the whole country with a brush palleted in the gratuitous headlines of a sensationalist news media that uses fearmongering to generate page views. We try to stand against those who proclaim that they would never go to a country as "dangerous" as Mexico, when they have never set foot in Mexico and evidence no awareness of the nuances of the country.

We know that when we go to Mexico, we are supporting economic activities that create opportunities for Mexican people who are opposed to the gang culture.  We tip the housekeeping staff to help ensure that they have a living wage.  Some of us leave our resorts to be more involved locally.  We patronize business people who have set up shop to make an honest living by supporting the tourism industry. We ride buses and take taxis.  We visit mercados for produce and meat. Others of us might chose to stay primarily at the resort, having an isolated "all inclusive" vacation. But even then, the money spent at the resort supports the people who work at the resort.  In either case, by going to the country and spending money, we are supporting alternatives to the violence subculture.

We do not go to Mexico in guilt.  We go to Mexico proudly, knowing that by doing so we are in some small measure rewarding those who simply want to do honest work and get paid for their efforts.


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## mikenk

T_R_Ogledyte, thanks for an excellent post; you expressed very well the opinions of most on this forum.

Karen G, I would suggest this is a great point to close this thread and move to the Mexico safety sticky. T.R. 's post would really be a great post for folks to see easily as they are searching trying to understand.

Mike


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## Karen G

mikenk said:


> T_R_Ogledyte, thanks for an excellent post; you expressed very well the opinions of most on this forum.
> 
> Karen G, I would suggest this is a great point to close this thread and move to the Mexico safety sticky. T.R. 's post would really be a great post for folks to see easily as they are searching trying to understand.
> 
> Mike


Mike, I agree and I will move this thread now. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## tgun

TravelTime said:


> I have posted many positives about Mexico but no one notices that part. For example, my many visits to Mexico, my love of the local people, my love of Mexican architecture and art, my ability to speak Spanish, my care about human rights in Mexico and for Mexican immigrants in the USA. I have many Mexican friends too. I’ve posted great things about the Pueblo Bonito timeshare company and the Intercontinental Hotels in Cancun and Cozumel. I am a scuba diver and love diving in Cozumel. I love Puerto Vallarta. But the fact is Mexico is experiencing an increase in crime and murders and it is a human rights crisis. That is my worry and concern for the Mexican people. To be honest, I am not too worried about Americans in Mexico since the Mexican government is trying to protect foreign tourists. I only posted the recent story about the American couple and their dog that was murdered because it seems Americans only pay attention when an American is killed. Americans are not victims in Mexico. The Mexican people are the ones in pain and distress.


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## tgun

Dear TravelTime,

Just think how much better we would feel if we would learn too speak Mayan when visiting Cancun and Cozumel.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

tgun said:


> Dear TravelTime,
> 
> Just think how much better we would feel if we would learn too speak Mayan when visiting Cancun and Cozumel.


The problem is that there is no "Mayan" language.  Mayan communities speak a variety of different languages, and dialects of those languages.  It is not uncommon for indigenous Mayan people from communities less than 60 miles away from each other to be unable to communicate.  

The organizations in Central America that we are involved generally work in Spanish.  But when they go into a community they generally need to bring along an interpreter who speaks the specific language spoken in the region.


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## easyrider

Regarded as the place to go for an emergency by ex-pats in Mazatlan is Sharp Hospital. If you have a heart problem or stroke out this hospital has the means to keep you alive. This facility does accept many types of medical insurance. Even so, it is better to purchase a travel policy that will cover emergencies before you head anywhere in Mexico, imo.

https://www.hospitalsharp.com/especialidades/


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## John Cummings

My mother went to the ER at Sharp in Mazatlan a few years ago when we were staying there. The service was excellent. The Sharp hospital in Mazatlan is affiliated with Sharp in San Diego. Her insurance covered it though the charges were very low.


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## macmanrider

pittle said:


> *Safe!*
> 
> Do not be afraid to exchange into a timeshare in Mexico.
> 
> We have sold our Hawaii, Massachusetts, and Florida timeshares and bought were we want to go - Mexico!!!   We now own 15 weeks in Mexico and if it were not safe, we would not take our family there (especially our grandson).  We  feel comfortable enough about the safety that last year I drove 3 other gals down to Puerto Penasco from Phoenix without my husband (it was his idea that we drive down there).  This year I am going to Acapulco MP in January with just girls.  We drive to Mazatlan to spend the month of June each year.


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## DannyTS

Interesting article about the risks of traveling to Mexico 
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/hea...-statisticians-take-on-the-risk-vs-the-reward


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## John Cummings

[removed quote of deleted post]

The Fox news article has nothing to do with the caravans and the border crisis. It is about the safety of tourism in Mexico and nothing else.


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## macmanrider

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> After some thought, I think I want to make one last pushback on your previous posts.
> 
> I proffer that many of us who go to Mexico do so, in part, because we have an affinity for the people and the culture.  We do not have our heads in the sand; rather we are acutely aware of conditions in the country.
> 
> We do often emphatically counter those who paint the whole country with a brush palleted in the gratuitous headlines of a sensationalist news media that uses fearmongering to generate page views. We try to stand against those who proclaim that they would never go to a country as "dangerous" as Mexico, when they have never set foot in Mexico and evidence no awareness of the nuances of the country.
> 
> We know that when we go to Mexico, we are supporting economic activities that create opportunities for Mexican people who are opposed to the gang culture.  We tip the housekeeping staff to help ensure that they have a living wage.  Some of us leave our resorts to be more involved locally.  We patronize business people who have set up shop to make an honest living by supporting the tourism industry. We ride buses and take taxis.  We visit mercados for produce and meat. Others of us might chose to stay primarily at the resort, having an isolated "all inclusive" vacation. But even then, the money spent at the resort supports the people who work at the resort.  In either case, by going to the country and spending money, we are supporting alternatives to the violence subculture.
> 
> We do not go to Mexico in guilt.  We go to Mexico proudly, knowing that by doing so we are in some small measure rewarding those who simply want to do honest work and get paid for their efforts.


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## John Cummings

I have a great deal of affinity for the Mexican People and their culture. My wife is Mexican. I am very close to her family that all live in Mexico. We were married in her hometown of Culiacan Sinaloa and lived there. I am fluent in Spanish and owned a business there. Our son played baseball there. We wre very immersed in the Mexican music scene. So don't tell me that I don't have affinity. For the people.

Having said that there is no denying that Mexico has become a very violent country. Of the 5 most dangerous cities in the world, 4 of them are in Mexico. You can kook that up. Three of them are tourist destinations.


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## bobpark56

We are in Puerto Aventuras now (a gated, marina community). We have been here for 3 weeks and have 2 more to go. Not a sign or whiff of violence here.


----------

