# Hyatt for lowest price AND lowest MFs



## b727plumber (Oct 14, 2009)

Hello all,

(This is any inquiry regarding the Hyatt point system)

I live in Colorado and would probably use the Hyatt properties in CO during the slow times (outside of prime weeks). When we looked at the Hyatt Grand Aspen, we loved the property but found it to be too expensive.

I'm looking for a deeded Hyatt property that we could purchase around 2200 points and also enjoy the lowest maintenance fees. We wouldn't necessarily stay at the purchased location.

The way I see it, there are only two reasons to buy the Hyatt Grand Aspen:

1) You expect the value of the property to appreciate significantly more than any other Hyatt fractional

and/or

2) You really want to use the deeded week you've purchased every year.

Am I missing something? Please offer your best advice.

Thanks!!


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## nightnurse613 (Oct 14, 2009)

Normally I would advise NEVER to purchase a TS as an investment and I think that's good advice however, purchasing at a desirable location at least gives the hope that future exchanges will be facilitated more easily.  Yes, one of the secrets is to pay the lowest price (purchase plus on-going MF) possible for a place you wouldn't mind going to every year.  Clearly resale is the way to go-it is not uncommon to buy a timeshare that originally sold for $25-30K dollars for a dollar.  That is not necessarily a reflection of the value of the property but an indication of how much developers inflate their prices whenever they can. Be sure to read the Hyatt column on TUG carefully and watch ebay ads (also here at TUG) and try to pick up the subtleties in the properties.  My husband made me look at about 25 properties before we ever bought our first one!:zzz:


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## b727plumber (Oct 15, 2009)

Nightnurse,

Thanks for your response!  I have been reading TUG about various Hyatt properties and it seems that the Hyatt Pinon Pointe in Sedona would be a good combination of low purchase price, low MF's and fairly easy accessibility from Colorado if we did choose to use our deeded week.  Also, am I misunderstanding that these Hyatt deeded properties are more of a real estate investment than a non-deeded purely TS???  What are your thoughts about the two types of "timeshares".

What, if anything, do you know about that property??  There are only a handful of Diamond weeks (2200 points), so that limits the number of resales out there.  Do you know desirable units, etc.??

Thanks!


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## b727plumber (Oct 15, 2009)

To clarify, I suppose I should ask what exactly is the difference between

a Hyatt Vacation Club Resort

and

a Hyatt Residence Club

Thanks!


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## Bill4728 (Oct 15, 2009)

Buying a resale at Hyatt Sedona will likely cost you 1/3 of the price that Hyatt is currently asking for Sedona. And a lot less than they want for the Grand Aspen. 

95% of all TSs  never go up in value, The 5% which do are almost always are "name brand TS" like Marriott or Hyatt.  But some of that was the developer supporting the prices by buying back lower priced resells thru ROFR.  Marriott isn't doing that currently and in the last year the resale prices of Marriott TS has gone down about 50%. 

Don't buy thinking you'll make money, buy because that TS is where you want to vacation regularly. Or in the case of Hilton or Hyatt, generates points for you to use at the other Hilton or Hyatt TSs.


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## b727plumber (Oct 27, 2009)

Bill,

Thanks for your response!

1) Do you consider a purchase at Hyatt Pinon Pointe to be a time share or a fractional real estate transaction?

2) Is there any value to having a deeded property vs. a traditional Time Share?

3) Also, do you know what exactly the difference is between

a Hyatt Vacation Club Resort

and

a Hyatt Residence Club??

Thanks for your help!


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## Cathyb (Oct 28, 2009)

b727:  Another question to ask:  We 'heard' that the Pinon Pointe one bedrooms have bad locations -- i.e., no views. We toured the property but of course that didn't come up.


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## ScoopKona (Oct 30, 2009)

Last time I ran the numbers, San Antonio and Beach House (Key West) were #1 and #2 in lowest price plus maintenance. I think nothing has changed since then.

What do you want to get from your Hyatt week/points?


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## b727plumber (Oct 30, 2009)

ScoopLV,

We would most likely use our points to stay at the Grand Aspen as we live in the Front Range of Colorado.  We would probably be most interested in 2,3 or 4 day stays in at least a 2-bedroom, anytime of year.


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## optimist (Oct 30, 2009)

b727plumber said:


> Bill,
> 
> Thanks for your response!
> 
> ...




I will take a stab at  your questions though there are those a lot more knowledgeable than me but it looks like you haven't had many responses, maybe because your questions are not clear.

1) Pinon Pointe is a timeshare, you buy one week at a time. My understanding of a fractional ownership is that you buy multiple weeks at a time. in that way, the usage feels more like owning a home.  

2) I am not sure what you mean by this question. All timeshares within the Hyatt system are deeded except for the property in Puerto Rico.  A traditional timeshare IS deeded. (a few, mostly in Mexico, are RTU, right to use, because the laws in that country do not allow foreigners to own beach front property)

3) Hyatt Residence Club is what Hyatt calls it's fractional residence program-there are only two at the moment. Northstar in Tahoe and Siesta Key in Florida.  
The other timeshares are called Hyatt Vacation Club Resort because calling it a timeshare is not very sexy.


I did a  huge amount of reading mostly on this site before deciding on Beach House as having the lowest price/maintenance combo.

Hope that helps.


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## heathpack (Oct 31, 2009)

*Consider High Sierra?*

When I was researching our Hyatt purchase, I had trouble finding specifics but did hear people comment that Pinon Pointe and Beach House were the low MF/purchase price properties.  

We however bought at High Sierra, which is another contender, in my opinion.  Our gold (1880 pt) week cost us just over $9000 and we just paid 2010 MF that I think were something like $960 or $980 total.

Maybe somebody else can give you exact numbers for a recent purchase at Sedona or PP, along with current MF as those bills are going out now.  I had read here on TUG that $7000-$8000 was the going price for a Hyatt 1880 contract, but when I was looking (6 months ago) I could not find anything that low and $9000 seemed to be the bottom of the market.  My seller was such a pleasure to work with that I am not sorry for even 1 second if I could have ferreted out a lower price.

Running the numbers, the clear conclusion that I came to is this:  if you plan to hold on to your timeshare for a long time (10+ years), the most important number you should be worried about is the MF.  They will increase yearly and will become by far the biggest piece of the financial pie over time.  So if you have to give weight to one number of the purchase price/MF ratio, I would advise that it be the MF.

Also, as an FYI.  My husband and I hate cold weather so we don't even look for Aspen outside of July or August.  But we search HVC a lot & commonly see a little something available in Aspen, usually a studio.  There will probably be even more once we are within 6 months of those summer dates.  So I can tell you that at least right now, the idea of traveling to Aspen in the summer would be a realistic one.   _whoops, re-read your post which states you'd be interested in a 2 br or larger.  I rarely see those, but I don't think this means much until we get into Feb.  Owners who will not use their deeded week will commonly give them up to HVC at the six-month-before use mark._

I am pretty new to all this, so maybe someone more experienced will post something wiser...

H


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## Steve (Oct 31, 2009)

optimist said:


> 2) I am not sure what you mean by this question. All timeshares within the Hyatt system are deeded except for the property in Puerto Rico.  A traditional timeshare IS deeded. (a few, mostly in Mexico, are RTU, right to use, because the laws in that country do not allow foreigners to own beach front property)



This is not accurate.  In addition to the Puerto Rico location, the following Hyatt Vacation Club resorts are also RTU (right to use):

High Sierra Lodge, Incline Village, NV
Windward Pointe, Key West, FL
Highlands Inn, Carmel Highlands, CA

The others are all deeded.  

Steve


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## oinksx3 (Oct 31, 2009)

I own at Sedona and have stayed at Beaver Creek as well as looking at Breckenridge and Aspen.  First off Beaver Creek is stunning with not a bad unit.  If you stay outside of the ski season there are some incredible values if the weather permits.  The top floor units at Sedona are the only ones worth considering in my opinion.  They are not dark as the lower level units can be.  The new section with the views facing the main section possibly avoids this "dark unit" problem but the units involve a hike to the pool.


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## ScoopKona (Nov 1, 2009)

I have not stayed at Aspen, nor have I tried. So I'm not the right person to be dispensing advice about trading a 2200 point week for an Aspen ski week.


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## b727plumber (Nov 1, 2009)

Optimist,

Thanks for getting back to me!

I suppose that the fractional ownership and deeded property questions are one in the same.  As long as I receive a deed to the property for at least a week, I would consider that a fractional ownership (albeit, a small fraction of 1/52!).  Alot of the fractional properties that we have looked into are for at least 2 weeks in the summer and 2 weeks in the winter.  Of course, the MF's are proportionally higher as well compared to buying only one week of ownership.

You mentioned two HRC's.  Isn't the Hyatt Grand Aspen an HRC as well?  If the HRC's and HVC's are both deeded properties, is there a list of real differences between the two types of properties??


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## b727plumber (Nov 1, 2009)

Heathpack,

Thanks for your response.  Your consideration of MF's as the more important component of long term ownership is eye opening re: the Hyatt system.  Since we will most likely only use the Hyatt properties in CO, we need to make sure that the combined purchase costs and ongoing MF's give us the most bang for the buck.

Re: the availability of the Hyatt Grand Aspen, are you talking about the prime weeks that Hyatt is selling?  I would think that those weeks would more likely be used by the owners for the most part.  We were thinking that we would probably only have access to the unsold weeks typically.

Also, most of our vacations are taken with only a month or so notice, as our work schedules change monthly.  Do you think that it is easy in the Hyatt system to book accommodations a month out??


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## b727plumber (Nov 1, 2009)

Steve,

Thanks for the clarification on the other RTU properties.  I think we will avoid those, simply because I would like to leave whatever we purchase to our kids if they would like to keep paying the MF's on it.


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## b727plumber (Nov 1, 2009)

oinksx3,

Your comments re: Beaver Creek are appreciated!  We would love to stay there as well.  We're sure that we could find some non-primetime days in the snow season that we could drive up and still enjoy some great skiing.  Do you know if the weeks that are sold at Beaver Creek are the same ones that are sold at Grand Aspen?  As I recall, they don't even sell half of the weeks of the year.

Thanks for the info re: Sedona.  Would it be possible to get a map of Pinon Pointe with the unit numbers on it?  If I could get that along with your recommendation of the preferred units, that would greatly help in my search for a property.


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## heathpack (Nov 2, 2009)

b727plumber said:


> Heathpack,
> 
> Thanks for your response.  Your consideration of MF's as the more important component of long term ownership is eye opening re: the Hyatt system.  Since we will most likely only use the Hyatt properties in CO, we need to make sure that the combined purchase costs and ongoing MF's give us the most bang for the buck.
> 
> ...



Hi Plumber,

My comment about MF being the biggest piece of the pie is true for any timeshare.  We ran our numbers for 20 years with HVC and also Disney Vacation Club.  Over that time period, MF were about 2/3 of the total cost.  We figured a yearly 3% increase in MF.  We also assumed zero resale value in 20 years (hopefully this is way to pessimistic).

I have no idea what Aspen inventory is being accessed when I search HVC website.  I was under the impression that as a rule timeshare unsold inventory is rented out by the developer whereas sold weeks are available for to club members or for exchange, but I don't really know where I got this notion or if I am right.

My work schedule means that we usually plan travel many months in advance, so I don't typically search HVC for short-notice inventory.  However, we did decide to take a last-minute weekend trip two weeks ago.  We got the idea on Thursday and were in Sedona on Friday.  We only searched Sedona and Carmel, both were available.  There was only one unit in Sedona, though- a studio.

One other conclusion that we came to during our decision-making process: it may become a hassle/too expensive to fly, trade or even book a club reservation-- you never know.  So we decided Key West was out, as we live in Southern California.  We wanted our deed to be for a HVC unit we can drive to and in a place we'd be happy to go to yearly.  For us, that meant Carmel, Sedona, or Tahoe.  For you, maybe Sedona is the sweet spot of distance and price point.

H


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## Divot (Nov 2, 2009)

*The Financial Logic Test*

To consider a Hyatt purchase (or any branded Timeshare), amortize your out of pocket costs for 5 years (purchase price, condo and exchange/booking/maintenance fees) and take that number divided into the number of nights of use. If for example you spend $8,000 including closing costs on the purchase, and another $6,000 in fees & expenses over 5 years, you use 45 - 50 nights with your points, your net cost per night will be over $275 per night. ($14,000 divided by 50) The fees tend to rise while room rates have been declining in this economy. Its my belief that you can get some great daily and weekly rentals for much less $$$ and you have a much larger choice of locations, no hassle booking and if you're unable to travel - you're not paying for something you can't use. In summary, even if you can get a "steal" on the price, will your out of pocket expenses still exceed what you would pay for quality digs without ownership????


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## heathpack (Nov 2, 2009)

Divot said:


> To consider a Hyatt purchase (or any branded Timeshare), amortize your out of pocket costs for 5 years (purchase price, condo and exchange/booking/maintenance fees) and take that number divided into the number of nights of use. If for example you spend $8,000 including closing costs on the purchase, and another $6,000 in fees & expenses over 5 years, you use 45 - 50 nights with your points, your net cost per night will be over $275 per night. ($14,000 divided by 50) The fees tend to rise while room rates have been declining in this economy. Its my belief that you can get some great daily and weekly rentals for much less $$$ and you have a much larger choice of locations, no hassle booking and if you're unable to travel - you're not paying for something you can't use. In summary, even if you can get a "steal" on the price, will your out of pocket expenses still exceed what you would pay for quality digs without ownership????



Well, divot, that is very insteresting.  You will probably find a number of different ways to look at this.  We ultimately decided that you could definately over-spreadsheet a calculation like this, as there are way too many unpredictable variables.

However, we factored in initial investment, loss of interest on initial investment, increase in MF over time, and expected booking/exchange fees.  We figured 14-21 days usage per year for 20 years.  It is not clear to me why you would consider amoritizing a timeshare like Hyatt over 5 years, but if you do, resale cannot be ignored, as it will still have a resale value at that point.

To use your rexample, if you spent $8000 initially, $6000 over 5 years, got 50 days use, then sold your unit after 5 years for a 50% loss ($4000 less $500 in closing costs), you come out with a cost per night of $210, which is equivalent to a $185/night hotel room, given a 12% hotel tax.  It would then be up to you personally to decide if a HVC unit for $185/night is worth the effort and loss of liquidity.

For us personally, our approx cost is $2200/yr including initial investment amoritized over 20 years.  This year we have scheduled 7 nights in HVC properties and a 7 night exchange for a 42 foot sailboat.  So our cost per night works out to about $150/night.  To us it is very worth it.

H


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## Carmel85 (Nov 7, 2009)

I would hope people consider Hyatt High Sierra Lodge to buy because our board is made up or should I say is not made up of Hyatt guys.

This board which you here on TUG helped get eleceted

Steve Dallas (Vice President of the Board) last year
Jack Hopkins This year
Steve Dykstra (Board President) This Year

and the other two members are all working very hard for all of us owners to keep the resort in tip top shape but keeping a eye on Hyatts spending.

I would buy Hyatt Tahoe just because of low MF's and knowing we have a board looking out for all of us.

Thank you TUG supports for helping elect Dykstra and Hopkins this year. 

 I do hope Steve Dallas runs again in 2010 he has really help in getting cost udner control with owners that have not payed January 2009 277k owned to the HOA now November 2009 30k  GREAT job Steve Dallas 

 If you Hyatt Tahoe owners would like to help out on the nominatting committe please send me a PM.  This committee meets for 1-1.5 hours only one day in 2010 but it recommends who we should all vote for in 2010 election. Just send me a PM if you are interested and I will pass your info along... It would be great to have TUG Hyatt Tahoe owners on this committee.:  


C85
WWCD


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## Ken555 (Nov 22, 2009)

Carmel85 said:


> I would hope people consider Hyatt High Sierra Lodge to buy because our board is made up or should I say is not made up of Hyatt guys.



This is great info. I'm just starting to explore the Hyatt system in hopes of purchasing a unit in the next year or so (I'm in no rush) and after the recent issues at Starwood with developer controlled boards, I'm definitely interested in a property where the owners are in control.


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## Carmel85 (Nov 22, 2009)

Ken555 said:


> This is great info. I'm just starting to explore the Hyatt system in hopes of purchasing a unit in the next year or so (I'm in no rush) and after the recent issues at Starwood with developer controlled boards, I'm definitely interested in a property where the owners are in control.



Ken555,

I would incurage you to call Hyatt Tahoe resort and ask to read the minutes of the past board meeting.  This Hyatt Tahoe Board is really looking out for the owners.

I hear now that Hyatt has changed the point value in Carmel the Hyatt Tahoe board might be ready to put up a big fight.  I would hope all Hyatt board like Sunset Harbor in KeyWest also fight because what Hyatt did in Carmel is just not right.

Just watch Marriuott,Starwood,Hilton and other timeshare managers will be changing the rules.

C85


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## Ken555 (Nov 22, 2009)

Carmel85 said:


> Ken555,
> 
> I would incurage you to call Hyatt Tahoe resort and ask to read the minutes of the past board meeting.  This Hyatt Tahoe Board is really looking out for the owners.



Good to hear. I wish more resorts were like this.



> I hear now that Hyatt has changed the point value in Carmel the Hyatt Tahoe board might be ready to put up a big fight.  I would hope all Hyatt board like Sunset Harbor in KeyWest also fight because what Hyatt did in Carmel is just not right.



Yeah, I read that post with interest. It seems that Highlands Inn is the place to buy resale now, if the new point value holds up.



> Just watch Marriuott,Starwood,Hilton and other timeshare managers will be changing the rules.
> 
> C85



Not sure why you think this is a new problem. Starwood's been doing it for a while, though I don't believe they've increased the high-end. They have made subtle changes to their StarOption values at a couple of resorts over the last few years, but nothing substantial. Starwood, FWIW, has the unilateral right to do this type of change, and I suspect Hyatt does as well. If they don't, then the HOAs certainly should dispute it. But, I doubt they'll get anywhere.

I have an unrelated question... I looked at the Tahoe resorts and the FAQs on TUG (and Kal's helpful site). It's listed on one that studio units are at the Northstar resort, yet the Hyatt website (and Northstar site itself) only show 2 and 3 bed units. What am I missing? Are there 1-bed and studio units in Tahoe? 

I'm asking since I'm contemplating purchasing Hyatt to go there during ski season, but I will most likely only need a studio or 1-bed, and this makes a difference when trying to figure out how many points I need.

TIA!


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## jkc22 (Nov 23, 2009)

Ken555 said:


> ... I looked at the Tahoe resorts and the FAQs on TUG (and Kal's helpful site). It's listed on one that studio units are at the Northstar resort, yet the Hyatt website (and Northstar site itself) only show 2 and 3 bed units. What am I missing? Are there 1-bed and studio units in Tahoe?
> 
> I'm asking since I'm contemplating purchasing Hyatt to go there during ski season, but I will most likely only need a studio or 1-bed, and this makes a difference when trying to figure out how many points I need.
> 
> TIA!



There are studios at Northstar, but they may not be sold individually, as they are part of the "Lockoff" of a 3-Bedroom condo. Having stayed there, there are most definitely no 1-Bedroom condos. 

It's not cheap to buy there, when last quoted (already discounted), it's $180K for a 3-Bedroom lock off with a deeded week 50 and about 10-days of "float" days, for a grand total of 4,440 points per annum (2,520 winter fixed + 1,920 float points). You will be looking at about $4K for MF every year.


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## Ken555 (Nov 23, 2009)

jkc22 said:


> There are studios at Northstar, but they may not be sold individually, as they are part of the "Lockoff" of a 3-Bedroom condo. Having stayed there, there are most definitely no 1-Bedroom condos.
> 
> It's not cheap to buy there, when last quoted (already discounted), it's $180K for a 3-Bedroom lock off with a deeded week 50 and about 10-days of "float" days, for a grand total of 4,440 points per annum (2,520 winter fixed + 1,920 float points). You will be looking at about $4K for MF every year.



Is there a listing of the amenities of the studio unit? Does it have its own washer/dryer? (That's always important for a ski vacation). Well, I found this site which doesn't show it as included. Does anyone know if they have w/d's in the common areas for use by guests?

I would probably look to trade into Northstar. It seems that should be realistic... is it? I'd be looking at 750 or 680 (Diamond or Platinum) per week for the ski weeks, I believe. This leads me to conclude I should focus on the 1880 or higher weeks, since I want at least 1500 for two weeks Diamond in a studio at this location. And I'd probably buy resale, since I don't see the benefit not to (I don't need the ability to convert to hotel points).

Thanks!


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## jkc22 (Nov 23, 2009)

Ken555 said:


> Is there a listing of the amenities of the studio unit? Does it have its own washer/dryer? (That's always important for a ski vacation).
> 
> I would probably look to trade into Northstar. It seems that should be realistic... is it? I'd be looking at 750 or 680 (Diamond or Platinum) per week for the ski weeks, I believe. This leads me to conclude I should focus on the 1880 or higher weeks, since I want at least 1500 for two weeks Diamond in a studio at this location. And I'd probably buy resale, since I don't see the benefit not to (I don't need the ability to convert to hotel points).
> 
> Thanks!



No W/D in studios - stayed in a 3-BR/L two months ago. It's got a convenience kitchen with stove and mini-fridge/freezer though - definitely not a kitchen for heavy duty cooking.

If you have been to any of the Colorado ski properties with lockoff studios, it's pretty much like those (sans the Murphy bed a la Breck -- only Breck has those).


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## Ken555 (Nov 23, 2009)

jkc22 said:


> No W/D in studios - stayed in a 3-BR/L two months ago. It's got a convenience kitchen with stove and mini-fridge/freezer though - definitely not a kitchen for heavy duty cooking.
> 
> If you have been to any of the Colorado ski properties with lockoff studios, it's pretty much like those (sans the Murphy bed a la Breck -- only Breck has those).



Thanks for confirming. I haven't stayed at any Hyatt t/s's yet.


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