# How to Cancel the Agreement after the recind date



## kimcalder (Aug 21, 2008)

Hi there.  

I'm sure you hear this all of the time, but I got suckered into purchasing "ownership" from WorldMark by Wyndham.  Okay, I believe myself to be a fairly educated person, but I got bamboozled.  

Long story short... Went to a "presentation" on April 5, 2008.  Was made all sorts of promises and fell for the trick. Basically, I was told that I could back out of the agreement until my full 10% down payment had been made. Well, I haven't finished making the down payment and I want out.  Now they say that I didn't recind in time and now I own, pay up.  

Besides that lie, I was told I could use the "ownership" as a tax write off at the end of the year because I could list it as a 2nd home.  Lie number 2.  Yes, I fell for it again.  It all sounded so wonderful at the time. 

HOW DO I GET OUT OF THE AGREEMENT.  In the last paragraph of the agreement it states that the contract is not complete until the following conditions are met... Won't list all of them here, but one is the 10% down payment.  

Can I get out?  

I've found the following group of people who say they can get me out of the contract (for a fee)  http://www.theownersadvocate.com/

Has anyone heard of The Owners Advocate?  

Any help you can provide would be very much appreciated. 

Thank you,
Kim


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## Rent_Share (Aug 21, 2008)

Look's like another vulture appearing to appeal to your sense of justice at the end just trying to profit from your misery

If your contract says the agreement is not complete until the 10 % down payment is complete you could stop paying and say "so sue me: and then let a judge decide if the agreement is enforceable or not, 

The various conditions that you did not list may cosntitute acceptance (a key legal concept in determining does a biletareal agreement between the parties exists)  may contradict the lack of a complete down payment in making an enforceable agreement 

The fact that they they charged you 3 X the market value is not a defense 

1 hour of an attorney's time would be better than explaining a civil suit on your credit profile for years


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## AwayWeGo (Aug 21, 2008)

*When You're In A Hole, Be Sure To Stop Digging.*




kimcalder said:


> Any help you can provide would be very much appreciated.


Sorry to hear you got hornswoggled, Kim. 

You aren't the 1st & you won't be the last. 

Meanwhile, click here for a hypothetical nightmare scenario illustrating additional layers of timeshare scam to guard against from here on out. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Courts (Aug 21, 2008)

After a quick search for "The Owners Advocate" I would not pay them any money. 
.


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## e.bram (Aug 21, 2008)

the purveyors of auction rate securities were forced to return peoples money because of fraudulent statements about their liquidity(value). Why can't TS buyers do the same if they paid 3x market value..


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## Passepartout (Aug 21, 2008)

kimcalder said:


> Hi there.
> 
> I'm sure you hear this all of the time, but I got suckered into purchasing "ownership" from WorldMark by Wyndham.  Okay, I believe myself to be a fairly educated person, but I got bamboozled.
> 
> ...



I'd like to tell you that you are the first, but you're not. Sorry. Stories like yours are the reason there IS a rescind, or cooling off period. The sad simple truth is that you didn't rescind in time. Maybe if you work with Wyndham on a hardship basis, they might make an exception, but to try to get out of the purchase after 4 months on a technicality is probably not going to work. To pay someone else is just chasing good money with bad. 

Many TUGgers- maybe a majority- found us just like you did- after it was too late. So the best thing to do is probably to use TUG to figure out how use what you own. Or how to rent it to help cover the maintenance fees. Your relatives may like vacations as Christmas presents. You get the idea. I don't own Wyndham, but many here do and they are fine resorts. There is a Wyndham forum. The reasons why you bought at the presentation are still valid, you just paid too much. We've all paid too much for something. Don't beat yourself up.

Good luck, and Welcome to TUG. 

Jim Ricks


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## e.bram (Aug 21, 2008)

Look at your contract and see where the venue is for the litigation. If it is in Utah, let them sue you. The worst you can do is lose and if continue to pay them you are a loser. In court you defend yourself and you have a shot at winning. If you do nothing you lost anyway. In court the worst you can do is lose. Why not give it a shot.


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## talkamotta (Aug 22, 2008)

There are a lot of people here that bought thier first timeshare from sales weasles. 

If it makes you feel better, I think Worldmark has one of the best resale values. There are other companies that loose 50-75% off a new resort before the year is up.   My sister and her husband bought thier Worldmark/Trendwest points from the developer and bought additional points from ebay....  They use thier points so much that they will be buying more when it gets closer to retirement.    

Thats kind of how I feel about my first purchase from sales weasles.  If it makes you travel and vacation over time you will save enough money to make up the difference from what it would cost to rent a hotel room.  

Worldmark is a great company especially for people who live out west.  Thier short rental stays for Eden, St. George, Vegas could make a great getaway.  My coworker stayed at Coeur D'Alene and thought it was wonderful.  I looked at the Worldmark in Canmore, perfect location.  

If you are stuck with buying the timeshare, then LEARN HOW TO USE IT.  Its sad to see people buy a timeshare from a developer only to never use it. Think of it as an investment, it takes time to learn how to make the most of it.  JOIN TUG FOR THE REVIEW SECTION. When you buy more points or another resort buy them resale...


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## e.bram (Aug 23, 2008)

Don't let them grind you down.
If you think you can fight this fraud. you can.


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## Art (Aug 23, 2008)

e.bram said:


> Look at your contract and see where the venue is for the litigation. If it is in Utah, let them sue you. The worst you can do is lose and if continue to pay them you are a loser. In court you defend yourself and you have a shot at winning. If you do nothing you lost anyway. In court the worst you can do is lose. Why not give it a shot.



Be wary of any advice to ignore the situation or pretend that you haven't signed a legally enforceable document.

Bad things can happen (although they might not) if you take any advice from anyone except an attorney who is versed in the applicable laws.  Having one's credit rating screwed up, plus having to pay anyway, is one of the risks you run.

Enough people have provided the answer already.  You might have made what you consider to be a mistake.  However, timeshares are great, learn to make the most of the one you now own.

Art


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## e.bram (Aug 23, 2008)

According to Art they should close all civil courts. Let the fraudsters win without a fight. Most courthouses have someone aroud to help pro se defendants.
Any contract where the "use of fraud in the inducement" causes one to sign it are invalid and non enforcable. TUG has a bunch wimps and whuses posting.


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## Lawlar (Aug 23, 2008)

*You Have Remedies*

You still have options so don’t give up yet.  The end of the recission period does not prevent you from seeking redress.

I would start by filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. The complaint should state that you want to cancel the contract because of fraud and provide a description of each false statement. That organization will try to mediate a resolution.  Worldmark will probably try to settle with you in order to avoid the BBB showing an unresolved complaint on their records.  [We threatened to do this with Marriott and they made a settlement with us – giving us a fixed unit at a decent price.  If I had to do it over I would have insisted that they cancel the contract.]  Your complaint with the BBB will also serve as a warning to other consumers.

Also, file a complaint with the Attorney General’s office in your state.  They may also try to intervene to help you cancel the contract.  Also, if they get enough complaints they may file an action against Worldmark.

You might also consider contacting the Federal Trade Commission.  I believe they also take consumer complaints and they can initiate civil and criminal proceedings.


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## Rent_Share (Aug 24, 2008)

Rent_Share said:


> 1 hour of an attorney's time would be better than explaining a civil suit on your credit profile for years




Take the documents with you


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## talkamotta (Aug 27, 2008)

e.bram said:


> According to Art they should close all civil courts. Let the fraudsters win without a fight. Most courthouses have someone aroud to help pro se defendants.
> Any contract where the "use of fraud in the inducement" causes one to sign it are invalid and non enforcable. TUG has a bunch wimps and whuses posting.



I dont consider most of us to have those qualities. I dont know all the laws and dont profess to being a lawyer.  Another thing to consider, what if you went to all the trouble to talk to a lawyer and he/she did some work for you but the contract still stood.  You might have as much money in lawyer fees as the difference in buying a timeshare through the sales weasle and buying resale.  

Only the OP can choose which road to go down.... and far down that road he wants to go.  I and others are just saying dont add one poor decision to another by not learning how to use your new timeshare.


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## talkamotta (Aug 27, 2008)

e.bram said:


> the purveyors of auction rate securities were forced to return peoples money because of fraudulent statements about their liquidity(value). Why can't TS buyers do the same if they paid 3x market value..



How can anyone prove or disprove MARKET VALUE???

I think market value is what a timeshare will sell on ebay...  Sales weasles think its what they sell them for everyday in the sales office.  Even Ebay prices on the same property vary greatly within months.   

When I bought my income/rental property I went to get my property taxes reduced by 1/2.  The tax commission wouldnt have agreed to the reduction if it was a repo, in my case it was across the Multiple Listing Svc.


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## e.bram (Aug 27, 2008)

Both sides present their evidence(of market value) and the judge(jury) decides. That is why they have a legal system(courts).


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## e.bram (Aug 27, 2008)

Talkamotta:
Re read my posts. I said pro se(no legal fees).


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## dadeets (Oct 28, 2008)

Lawlar said:


> You still have options so don’t give up yet.  The end of the recission period does not prevent you from seeking redress.
> 
> I would start by filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. The complaint should state that you want to cancel the contract because of fraud and provide a description of each false statement. That organization will try to mediate a resolution.  Worldmark will probably try to settle with you in order to avoid the BBB showing an unresolved complaint on their records.  [We threatened to do this with Marriott and they made a settlement with us – giving us a fixed unit at a decent price.  If I had to do it over I would have insisted that they cancel the contract.]  Your complaint with the BBB will also serve as a warning to other consumers.
> 
> ...



We have a membership with Universal Vacation Club (Villa del Palmar - Puerto Vallarta). I called them and said I wanted to know the process for canceling our membership. They said they would send me a letter to sign which would relinquish all membership benefits, and this would release us from responsibility for continuing to pay maintenance bills. 

They of course tried to talk me into giving the membership as a gift to a family member, but I just said, the membership has no market value. In fact, it has a negative market value, in that it has the requirement to continue to pay membership dues.


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## BocaBum99 (Oct 28, 2008)

e.bram said:


> According to Art they should close all civil courts. Let the fraudsters win without a fight. Most courthouses have someone aroud to help pro se defendants.
> Any contract where the "use of fraud in the inducement" causes one to sign it are invalid and non enforcable. TUG has a bunch wimps and whuses posting.



I would completely ignore e.bram.  He is providing very bad advice.  Just do a search on his posts and you will see that he is not credible.  The more he posts, the better because he will completely discredit is knowledge of the law and timesharing.  And, he will be less dangerous to the newbies who read this message board.


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## calgarygary (Oct 28, 2008)

Kim - unfortunately your post seems to be stirring some hostility between opposing viewpoints and the answers you are seeking may be getting lost in the discourse.


> I've found the following group of people who say they can get me out of the contract (for a fee) http://www.theownersadvocate.com/
> 
> Has anyone heard of The Owners Advocate?


If this organization is willing to collect their fee after they get you out of the contract, sure go ahead and use them.  However, 99.9% of the organizations out there claiming that they can get you out of ts contracts, sell your ts or rent your ts for an upfront fee *will not!*  Once they have your money, they will perform the minimum requirements of their contract and that will be that.  Further, your contact info. will be shared with all the other vultures out there.



> HOW DO I GET OUT OF THE AGREEMENT. In the last paragraph of the agreement it states that the contract is not complete until the following conditions are met... Won't list all of them here, but one is the 10% down payment.
> 
> Can I get out?


This may provide you a slim, I repeat slim, opportunity but only a lawyer from the state that the contract is registered in will be able to provide you accurate information and I would certainly consider proceeding down that avenue.


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## SDKath (Oct 28, 2008)

I don't understand.  If you signed a contract and it spells out clearly that your rescinding period is X days, even in the tinyest print, you are hosed.  You cannot get out of a contract or sue someone for what they said.  All that matters is what is written and what you signed.  

So spend some time pouring over the fine print of you 30+ page document.  That's what a lawyer would do anyway so why pay someone when it is plain and simple.  If you signed it, you have no recourse at all as verbal agreements are never enforceable in any court of law.

You can file a BBB complaint because what they did was not right, but there is no way they will let you out of something that you signed.  I am not saying what they did is right; I am just saying you likely have no recourse but to complain and still pay for the TS.

Katherine


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## e.bram (Oct 28, 2008)

CalgaryGary:
Pro se(by yourself in Latin) means you represent your self(no legal fees).Some courts and law schools will provide free help to pro ses. Lawyers hate them because their side has to pay, so they can't use legal fees as a tactic and judges are sympathetic to pro se defendants especially where the consumer is getting screwed. These TS cases are simple and any intelligent person could do a great job.

BocaBum must have a lawyer(they hate pro ses) in the family, so he bad mouths pro ses, you see them winning in court all the time.


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## Dave M (Oct 29, 2008)

e.bram is correct. One can represent himself/herself in court, assuming the judge permits it. It would normally be permitted in civil cases. However, I believe he does a disservice to those who post here when he suggests that a good route to go is to contest the legal commitment for a timeshare in court by representing oneself.  

All timeshare purchase contracts that I have seen comply closely with the laws of the states in which the timeshares were sold and, specifically, make it clear that the buyer agrees that he/she is not relying on any promises, statements or other information other than that contained in the purchase contract and the related legal documents that the purchaser signed for. 

It's that language, which most buyers never bother to read, that makes e.bram's suggestion impractical. 

Anyone can go to court. However, before doing so, one should be sure to understand the risks and the costs. The costs can become prohibitive in some jurisdictions, even if one represents himself/herself.


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## e.bram (Oct 29, 2008)

In New Jersey the only cost you would in incur would be that of losing. If you pay you lose anyway, so what expenses can you incur more tahn paying up to the fraudulent developer. 
I go to court all the time. Sometimes I win, sometime I don't. My best shot is when the other side has a lawyer and the legal expenses along with it I don't have. Usually you can make a good settlement(to save the lawyers face), since the lawyer knows you can be in for the long haul without incurring the legal costs his client in incurring.  I make toast out of the lawyers who take these cases(Clarence Darrow they are not) Good lawyers can't afford to tkae these penny ante cases. It is actually fun going to court. Like going to a sports camp but for real.


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## Mydogs2big (Oct 29, 2008)

Maybe e bram is from Texas.  

In Portland, our judges will say that they are not responsible to make either parties case. If you don't know enough about the law to disagree with the other side about the interpretation of "rose vs kane" or know that "thompson vs clair" over-rode the other ruling, the Judge is not going to step in to make your case.
It would be considered unethical.

Our Judges are ex-lawyers and they usually know many of the lawyers that a person would go to court against.  They like to reinforce the idea that you need a lawyer.  Besides that, if you win, who will prepare the paperwork for the judge?


***OOPS JUST SAW YOUR POSTING AFTER WRITING MINE_ JERSEY COURTS MUST BE GREAT!


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## DeniseM (Oct 29, 2008)

e.bram said:


> I go to court all the time. Sometimes I win, sometime I don't.



I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am very curious about what you mean by this?


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## Dave M (Oct 29, 2008)

e.bram said:


> In New Jersey the only cost you would in incur would be that of losing. If you pay you lose anyway, so what expenses can you incur more tahn paying up to the fraudulent developer?


Usually, the contract states that disputes are required to be adjudicated according to the laws of a specific state and in that jurisdiction - typically the domicile state for the developer. Since most people buy in a state other than their state of residence, they would likely incur significant travel and lodging expenses for preliminary hearings, postponed hearings, trial, etc. Whether such expenses are worthwhile for a literal shot in the dark's chance of winning is something each individual must determine. 

And that's before considering likely significant court costs for anything other than a small claims case, which for the most part is not applicable here.

Another likely cost comes from a provision in almost every contract that requires the purchaser to pay all legal fees, court costs and other costs of collection. Thus, if an outstanding loan, purchase price remainder or maintenance fee is at issue, the cost for taking such a case to court could easily be many thousands of dollars.

Should I go on?

Your advice might be more realistic if you suggest that the individual should consult with an attorney (usually free or less than $100 if arranged through a local Bar's referral service) and then decide what to do after that. But to encourage people without a working knowledge of the court system to take a dispute to court (not small claims court) on their own seems dangerous.


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## e.bram (Oct 29, 2008)

DaveM:
Read my post #7!!!!


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## Dave M (Oct 29, 2008)

I did. That's one of the reasons I posted as I did. Your statement, "Let them sue you...." is a sure way to have megabucks added to what the buyer owes if the almost certain "collection costs" clause is in the contract.


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## Jya-Ning (Oct 29, 2008)

kimcalder said:


> I've found the following group of people who say they can get me out of the contract (for a fee)  http://www.theownersadvocate.com/
> 
> Has anyone heard of The Owners Advocate?




Yes, they have sent a lot of their employees to pretent as satisfied customer using the same internet address to post.   

Don't go that route.

Talk to a local lawyer.

Jya-Ning


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## e.bram (Oct 29, 2008)

DaveM:
Miss the part about the "venue"(starts out with)?


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## Dave M (Oct 29, 2008)

That part was very clear. My advice - to ignore your advice as given - stands. 

Even in that specific situation (in the buyer's home state), the collection costs (including all of the developer's legal fees) could result in astronomical additional expense for the buyer.


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