# It is amazing how much people pay retail for this!



## arnief (Nov 17, 2015)

Just got an email offer for 5,000 points in Las vegas for $2k... What would that run through the developer? It is amazing..

As far as I know they disadvantage to buying resale is foregoing Elite status!?


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## presley (Nov 17, 2015)

arnief said:


> As far as I know they disadvantage to buying resale is foregoing Elite status!?



That may or may not be a disadvantage. Personally, I get annoyed when they send me my dumb elite gift. If I wasn't elite, I would forego that annoyance. 

You are correct that everything is the same when buying resale. They seem to have no problem selling new ownerships. Whenever I have been to the Marbrisa pool, I've seen many new owners carrying around their new owner packet. I saw many at Kingsland, too. I almost think it's easier to sell retail than resale. With retail, everyone looks so happy when they buy. With resale, people are biting their nails wondering if they got best deal, asking lots of questions on tug, backing out of purchases on Ebay...


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## Jason245 (Nov 17, 2015)

arnief said:


> Just got an email offer for 5,000 points in Las vegas for $2k... What would that run through the developer? It is amazing..
> 
> As far as I know they disadvantage to buying resale is foregoing Elite status!?



Advantage of Retail:

Elite status
"Easy" transaction (basically you have to do absolutly nothing to ensure that you will get the deed that was promised to you in the way it was promised. 

Advantage of Resale:
Save 90%+


Disadvantage of Retail:
Spend 10X more than resale.

Disadvantage of Resale:
More work
More due diligence required to ensure you are buying what you want to buy. 
slightly higher risk of fraud. 
No access to "Elite" benefits....

A package like that was offered to me from Hilton in Dec 2014 for ~$25-30k. 
It can easily be bought for ~$2k or less all in. 

As the saying goes here... Buy Resale, Save THOUSANDS.

I will never forget the look on my DW face when I said, I am buying a TS (look of disgust), then I told her I got it for FREE. I took her to HGVC south beach and she enjoyed it but didn't seem Awe Struck.... I took her to Eagles nest (one of the villas) and she was wonder struck and told me "you did good"... 

It is the little wins that matter


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## jestme (Nov 17, 2015)

So far. I have bought both, developer and resale. My Kalia studio far outweighs my 2 BR gold in Seaworld in value, and I bought it from the developer. I don't regret either, regardless of cost. I can rent my Kalia easily for more than the MF's, my Seaworld is a much far harder rent.
My biggest concern is that the "perks of ownership" are at the whim of HGVC. They could easily say resale owners can only use what they bought, no exchanges, and no open season. 
We all saw their long term whims last year when they tripled the Open season rates in highly desired resorts, Even though it would have brought in minimal revenue. then decided to keep the rates the same for 2015 after a lot of screaming complaints from their customers. (I was one of those that contacted them directly, and I am on my companies travel board that recommends or blacklists hotel chains for the corporation. We still use 18,000 Hilton hotel worldwide nights per year....)
If Blackstone sells off HGVC like Sheraton just did to Marriott, (something that you would never have contemplated for the past 5 years) you are at the whim of the new buyer and how they treat their customers and honoring perks. Trust me, Blackstone will go for the best short term buck for their investors, regardless of how their timeshare owners will get treated. 
I am not advocating buying from the developer, I am just pointing out that you own what you own, that's it. Stating perks are the same for resale owners is always still at HGVS's whim. A lot of Sheraton owners must be holding their breath right now.


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## PassionForTravel (Nov 17, 2015)

jestme said:


> If Blackstone sells off HGVC like Sheraton just did to Marriott


Starwood didn't sell Westin/Sheraton Timeshare to Marriott. They sold it to Interval (II's parent), like Hyatt did last year. They sold the hotel side to Marriott. 

Personally I think the sale to Interval is good for TS owners, it guarantees that some of the Starwood inventory will still be sent to II. The sale of the hotel side to Marriott, I'm guessing not so good for my SPG reward points.

Ian


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## Jason245 (Nov 17, 2015)

jestme said:


> So far. I have bought both, developer and resale. My Kalia studio far outweighs my 2 BR gold in Seaworld in value, and I bought it from the developer. I don't regret either, regardless of cost. I can rent my Kalia easily for more than the MF's, my Seaworld is a much far harder rent.
> My biggest concern is that the "perks of ownership" are at the whim of HGVC. They could easily say resale owners can only use what they bought, no exchanges, and no open season.
> We all saw their long term whims last year when they tripled the Open season rates in highly desired resorts, Even though it would have brought in minimal revenue. then decided to keep the rates the same for 2015 after a lot of screaming complaints from their customers. (I was one of those that contacted them directly, and I am on my companies travel board that recommends or blacklists hotel chains for the corporation. We still use 18,000 Hilton hotel worldwide nights per year....)
> If Blackstone sells off HGVC like Sheraton just did to Marriott, (something that you would never have contemplated for the past 5 years) you are at the whim of the new buyer and how they treat their customers and honoring perks. Trust me, Blackstone will go for the best short term buck for their investors, regardless of how their timeshare owners will get treated.
> I am not advocating buying from the developer, I am just pointing out that you own what you own, that's it. Stating perks are the same for resale owners is always still at HGVS's whim. A lot of Sheraton owners must be holding their breath right now.


If worst case scenario happens. .I am pretty confident I can get rid of the timeshare for same price I paid. .(nothing )..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## fernow (Nov 18, 2015)

There are HGVC "deals" I would not take for free, and others I would pay for.

If you are given a unit with yearly fees of 21¢ per point and your AVERAGE points cost per night of lodging is 1000 pts/night, (not going to get you into newer HGVC properties) you are paying $210 per night plus booking fee and local taxes.  Many of the lower point packages are at the 21¢ per point number.

Some of the higher point resales are at 14¢ to 15¢ yearly fee per point level and as such you could pay as much as $1 per point and be better off over 10-15 years of use.

Or, you could rent from VRBO etc for about the same nightly cost with no long term commitment.

Timeshares are really about intangibles, not $ value, even on the resale market.


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## Jason245 (Nov 18, 2015)

fernow said:


> There are HGVC "deals" I would not take for free, and others I would pay for.
> 
> If you are given a unit with yearly fees of 21¢ per point and your AVERAGE points cost per night of lodging is 1000 pts/night, (not going to get you into newer HGVC properties) you are paying $210 per night plus booking fee and local taxes.  Many of the lower point packages are at the 21¢ per point number.
> 
> ...



Your math makes no sense to me. 

Lets work some examples:

HGVC miami - 2BR 7k points for a week. 

Hotel rooms in the area (1 BR) are renting for $400/night+Tax (7 * 400 = $2800, this equals a savings of over $1k/week and better accomodation) There are no local taxes on that reservation. 

Eagles nest - 2BR 7k points per week (again no local taxes)
Hotel room nearby = $300/night + tax.  again, you are saving money (~$630 + taxes) plus are in better accommodation.

The locations where that redemption sux (probably break even or slight loss depending on your preference) are Vegas and Orlando.... almost all the other HGVC locations have savings on this type of deal.

I think of the "buy in" as a sunk cost to get into the rental discount club.  If you pay more, you can get a better discount, if you pay less, you get a lower discount.   

I paid nothing, and as a result, my discount is less than years, but my cash outflow was also significantly less, and I get the exact same experience on property as you and my commitment to the product is also very flexible (unlike you who would need 10-15 years to break even on the deal).  

The reality is that for the most part, people do not know what their lives will be like in 10-15 years. Many people don't even keep their homes for that long, medical things happen, Divorces happen, Wars happen, accidents happen, job cuts and recessions happen..... 

Buying something with an expectation of breaking even in 10-15 years is not a good business decision. For example, Walmart expects to break even on the construction of a new store within 2 years (many businesses usually also expect that 2-4 year range on capital investment).


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## arnief (Nov 18, 2015)

This would be a great (albeit almost impossible) project to determine a breakeven point. Too many variables but something like this...

To use your studio for a week twice in orlando in theory is roughly $500 week. What does it cost to rent a comparable suite in orlando for a week out right?


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## Jason245 (Nov 18, 2015)

Orlando almost always has last calls for 300 a week or less

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## arnief (Nov 18, 2015)

Jason245 said:


> Orlando almost always has last calls for 300 a week or less
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



Jason do you mean through HGVC open rates or various hotels on a Hotels.com type of site?


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## Jason245 (Nov 18, 2015)

arnief said:


> Jason do you mean through HGVC open rates or various hotels on a Hotels.com type of site?



RCI last call...

of course you need to be part of RCI for that...

But there are multiple sources where you can get rooms for $100/night or less (including here on Tugg).  Although resorts arn't generally HGVC.


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## pedro47 (Nov 18, 2015)

PassionForTravel said:


> Starwood didn't sell Westin/Sheraton Timeshare to Marriott. They sold it to Interval (II's parent), like Hyatt did last year. They sold the hotel side to Marriott.
> 
> Personally I think the sale to Interval is good for TS owners, it guarantees that some of the Starwood inventory will still be sent to II. The sale of the hotel side to Marriott, I'm guessing not so good for my SPG reward points.
> 
> Ian



I totally agree with your above statement. Look for Hyatt & Starwood excessive inventory to show up in II especially in low demand seasons/weeks .


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## Jodi0415 (Nov 18, 2015)

presley said:


> That may or may not be a disadvantage. Personally, I get annoyed when they send me my dumb elite gift. If I wasn't elite, I would forego that annoyance.
> 
> You are correct that everything is the same when buying resale. They seem to have no problem selling new ownerships. Whenever I have been to the Marbrisa pool, I've seen many new owners carrying around their new owner packet. I saw many at Kingsland, too. I almost think it's easier to sell retail than resale. With retail, everyone looks so happy when they buy. With resale, people are biting their nails wondering if they got best deal, asking lots of questions on tug, backing out of purchases on Ebay...




Lol!! So true!!


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## onenotesamba (Nov 18, 2015)

On the subject of developer prices...

We recently came back from our first HGVC developer presentation. The tour was fine, but when it came down to explanation of the program itself, it was astonishing how little information about the actual program itself was provided. There was also a lot of mis-information (if not out-and-out lies), but I didn't want to waste my energy pushing back on the inaccuracies of the pitch.  

But when it came to the pitch at the end, they offered us an 8400 point package at the Elara for $52K.  When I said that we loved the program, but that the price was too high, and that we'd likely buy resale if and when we decided to make the leap, they suggested an EOY of 7000 points (and I can't remember the property, but I think it was one of the Hawaii properties) for $23K.

I just kept saying "resale, resale, resale" and eventually they offered us the trial package of 7000 points in the VIP program for $1650--probably more expensive than if we rented the same week, here, but we've got a trip on the horizon where we'll definitely use them, and it's cheaper than we'd spend on a hotel, so we're okay with it.

Anyway--$52K is the developer's going rate for 8400 points at Elara right now, if anyone cares.


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## Jason245 (Nov 18, 2015)

onenotesamba said:


> On the subject of developer prices...
> 
> We recently came back from our first HGVC developer presentation. The tour was fine, but when it came down to explanation of the program itself, it was astonishing how little information about the actual program itself was provided. There was also a lot of mis-information (if not out-and-out lies), but I didn't want to waste my energy pushing back on the inaccuracies of the pitch.
> 
> ...




OMG... 52k for that.... in order for me to consider it I would need like 430,000 Bonus points that never expire and a guarantee of the highest level of elite status for the rest of my ownership.


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## onenotesamba (Nov 18, 2015)

*Value Proposition Question.*

Oops.  Meant to start a new thread, but accidentally posted here, again.


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## SmithOp (Nov 18, 2015)

onenotesamba said:


> Oops.  Meant to start a new thread, but accidentally posted here, again.


Just be aware that you need to book those VIP points well in advance, like 9 months, and in Hawaii prime season to get the best value out of them. Hawaii has the lowest sales pressure too, you will have to attend another one.


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## onenotesamba (Nov 18, 2015)

SmithOp said:


> Just be aware that you need to book those VIP points well in advance, like 9 months, and in Hawaii prime season to get the best value out of them. Hawaii has the lowest sales pressure too, you will have to attend another one.



Thanks for the advice.  We'll make sure to plan accordingly.


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## arnief (Nov 18, 2015)

I remember when they offered us the VIP points they showed it was only good in select resorts... But I must be wrong..


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## 1Kflyerguy (Nov 18, 2015)

onenotesamba said:


> On the subject of developer prices...
> 
> 
> I just kept saying "resale, resale, resale" and eventually they offered us the trial package of 7000 points in the VIP program for $1650--probably more expensive than if we rented the same week, here, but we've got a trip on the horizon where we'll definitely use them, and it's cheaper than we'd spend on a hotel, so we're okay with it.
> ...



Wow, I really like Elara, but not 52K worth.... seem to recall its not particularly cheap on the MF..


Personally, i usually just claim that i am overextended, and not interested in adding debt rather than get into a debate over resale vs. retail with the sales guys..  but either way they obviously keep trying.. the guy looked crushed last month when i turned down the upgrade to Trump...


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## onenotesamba (Nov 18, 2015)

arnief said:


> I remember when they offered us the VIP points they showed it was only good in select resorts... But I must be wrong..



No.  You're not mistaken.  It's only good in selected resorts--and the kicker is that you can't stretch the 7K points out to get more than one week (in a smaller unit or cheaper season).  But if we use it for a 2 BR Plat week that costs exactly 7K points, in the high season, when and where we'd plan to go anyway, we're maximizing the value.  Availability might be an issue, but we're also in a place where they're trying to get their hooks in us, so... hopefully, they'd be accommodating to a prospective new retail buyer.


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## CiCi (Dec 30, 2015)

We, too, purchased the VIP package for $1695 last year while at the Elara (amusing side note: we saw the guy we purchased it from an hour later at a restaurant and he didn't recognize us after we said hello..and we had JUST spent three hours with him!). It was good in Utah, Hawaii, NYC, South Carolina and Florida. We wanted to go to NYC during the holidays so I was on the phone March 1 and had no problem booking the Hilton Club New York for December 2015; however they have a five-day max stay in Utah and NYC). We just got back a couple of weeks ago and had an amazing time. That property is very nice and we asked/received a corner room with a view of Central Park (3803 I think). The sales pitch lasted only 20 minutes as we said we weren't interested in purchasing at NYC for $90-$120k....they "worked the numbers" and came back with their best offer of 2400 points EOY for $7k, lol. We said no thanks, they said goodbye and we enjoyed the rest of our vacation.


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## clotheshorse (Dec 31, 2015)

CiCi said:


> We, too, purchased the VIP package for $1695 last year while at the Elara (amusing side note: we saw the guy we purchased it from an hour later at a restaurant and he didn't recognize us after we said hello..and we had JUST spent three hours with him!). It was good in Utah, Hawaii, NYC, South Carolina and Florida. We wanted to go to NYC during the holidays so I was on the phone March 1 and had no problem booking the Hilton Club New York for December 2015; however they have a five-day max stay in Utah and NYC). We just got back a couple of weeks ago and had an amazing time. That property is very nice and we asked/received a corner room with a view of Central Park (3803 I think). The sales pitch lasted only 20 minutes as we said we weren't interested in purchasing at NYC for $90-$120k....they "worked the numbers" and came back with their best offer of 2400 points EOY for $7k, lol. We said no thanks, they said goodbye and we enjoyed the rest of our vacation.



Good for you Cici, amazing value to get NYC in December.  Great to hear these stories.


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## SkyBlueWaters (Feb 27, 2016)

presley said:


> That may or may not be a disadvantage. Personally, I get annoyed when they send me my dumb elite gift. If I wasn't elite, I would forego that annoyance.
> 
> You are correct that everything is the same when buying resale. They seem to have no problem selling new ownerships. Whenever I have been to the Marbrisa pool, I've seen many new owners carrying around their new owner packet. I saw many at Kingsland, too. I almost think it's easier to sell retail than resale. With retail, everyone looks so happy when they buy. With resale, people are biting their nails wondering if they got best deal, asking lots of questions on tug, backing out of purchases on Ebay...



Lol. So true.


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