# HCC 1 Year Holiday Reservations - Describe 12:01 a.m. Booking Experience



## LastTrueFamilyMan (Feb 20, 2008)

I'm seriously considering joining HCC, and I'm in the process of doing my financial due diligence.  As I do that, I'm also trying to find out more about other aspects of club membership.  

I've read through almost every HCC post here, and I haven't seen this covered.  I want to know what my chances are for getting my first choice property when I log on at 12:01 a.m. EST 1 year in advance and submit my reservation for my holiday week.  I will primarily be interested in securing a ski-in/ski-out property for New Years, Spring Break, and Christmas (on a rotating basis b/c of club rules, of course).

Let's say I go for gold and try for the Beaver Creek Village condo for New Year's week, and six other people submit at that same time for that same property.  I assume its sorted out by the computer in the milliseconds of timing the submit button with the actual time and internet traffic lag, etc.  What has that been like for members booking a popular property on a popular holiday like New Year's?

Then, say I get beat on that, and I start going down my list only to find that someone has already gotten the 4 other ski-in/ski-out properties by submitting at 12:01 a.m. sharp.  Has this happened to any of you?  I would just hate to think that I might get completely closed out of a holiday booking at a ski property on a year when that holiday is rotated back around and I'm eligible for that holiday that year.  The three holiday weeks mentioned above are the only weeks we'll have available to ski.

Based on your HCC experiences booking holidays one year out, do you think I would get closed out of securing one of the five HCC ski-in/ski-out properties for a given holiday?  I'm assuming New Year's will be toughest, followed by Christmas, and then Spring Break.     

Any insight or experiences any of you can share on this will be most helpful.

Take care,
LTFM


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## Bourne (Feb 20, 2008)

I'll bite. 

Given my past experience with a New Year's week, I would say you have a 90%+ chance of getting a *SKI* week for the holiday's mentioned. 

Reason being, there are multiple options. I would recommend keeping Option 1,2, and 3 ready in mind. One of the three is bound to work if you time the clock.


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## vivalour (Feb 20, 2008)

LastTrueFamilyMan said:


> I'm seriously considering joining HCC, and I'm in the process of doing my financial due diligence.  As I do that, I'm also trying to find out more about other aspects of club membership.
> 
> I've read through almost every HCC post here, and I haven't seen this covered.  I want to know what my chances are for getting my first choice property when I log on at 12:01 a.m. EST 1 year in advance and submit my reservation for my holiday week.  I will primarily be interested in securing a ski-in/ski-out property for New Years, Spring Break, and Christmas (on a rotating basis b/c of club rules, of course).
> 
> ...



We are new HCC members and this is one of our main issues with HCC so far. We did not try to book ski weeks, but we did go after various beach locations for New Year's week. We lucked out and got our first choice, but that was after someone had booked and then dropped it. IMO, your luck may depend on split-second timing, manipulation skills and experience at beating the system. I can't help but suspect that some people make multiple bookings for the same time at more than one high demand location with the hope that one comes through for them. (Don't know if HCC can filter this out or not.) Since we have very limited vacation times, and most coincide with school holidays, this factor will determine whether or not we stay in the DC world at all.


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## LastTrueFamilyMan (Feb 20, 2008)

vivalour said:


> IMO, your luck may depend on split-second timing, manipulation skills and experience at beating the system.


That is a concern - I'm paying a good bit of money to depend on luck to get the reservations I want.  If I follow this thought process all the way through, I end up thinking I should pass on HCC and just book through vrbo.  With one 3 y.o. daughter and another on the way, a two bedroom will meet our needs for a long time to come.  With vrbo, I won't have as nicely decorated unit, but it for sure will be during the week I want.  Also, I could book a unit even closer to the slopes (several of HCC's ski-in/ski-out locations appear to be a pretty good walk to the slopes).  And, I could coordinate my vrbo bookings better with my use of skymiles (assuring myself of using 25,000 miles per ticket instead of 50,000). 



vivalour said:


> I can't help but suspect that some people make multiple bookings for the same time at more than one high demand location with the hope that one comes through for them. (Don't know if HCC can filter this out or not.)


I don't understand this - how do people make multiple bookings? 



vivalour said:


> Since we have very limited vacation times, and most coincide with school holidays, this factor will determine whether or not we stay in the DC world at all.


This is huge for us as my wife is a school teacher, and I'm the CFO/General Counsel for a large independent school.  Our only vacations will be during school holidays, but we are very flexible in the summer when I have two additional weeks that I can take at any time.

Bourne and Vivalour, thanks for the help.

-LTFM


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## pwrshift (Feb 20, 2008)

For those who _must_ have a certain date, I suspect this will be a problem with DC's that have limited selections at a particular location. If there is only one location, once it's gone it's gone. And it would be very frustrating to have another 2 or 3 options that turned out to be milliseconds too late because you concentrated on getting option 1. 

However, I suspect that many DC customers don't own TS and may not know how to play the reservation game. 

Generally I have great holiday flexibility so I don't often get into this rat race. Closest I've had to this scramble is with Marriott and booking 4 weeks in a row with them from President's Week on ... but because I'm a multiple week owner and booking 4 weeks in a row it can be done 13 months ahead of the first check in date ... which means the other 3 weeks are even further out than 13 months ahead! A significant advantage to TS owners who know how to play the game. 

But in this specific case there are 144 (half of the total) suites available so as long as you're among the first 144 callers you're happy. Still, there are a number of single unit owners who can only do it 12 months ahead that are upset over Marriott's reservation system which they feel is weighted in favour of their multiple week owners as part of their marketing plan to sell more weeks. However, it appears that DC's also have different tier levels where their best customers have advantages.


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## vivalour (Feb 20, 2008)

LastTrue:
Our solution was to join for a year and see, for real, how it all works. Summers offer a lot more choices of date and location, as long as you are willing to book far ahead. In the past, we have rented high season vacation properties too, usually by referral. They usually worked out well, esp. when packaged with flights. 

The big advantage we see in a DC (esp. HCC) is that you are dealing with a known standard of quality and the places are spacious, often new, always clean, well maintained and well equipped for a family and friends (air matresses for extra kids, large appliances, washer & dryer). I don't want to go on vacation and clean the last occupant's gungy BBQ, which has happened with rentals.

So why not take a test drive for a year and see how it works out for you? I think HCC is  still offering a 100% refund of membership (not fees though) if you decide it doesn't work out.

About the multiple bookings -- this is just my speculation -- or paranoia.  Someone could get friends or extended family (who are also members, of course) to cooperate with them on doing multiple bookings. Again, just my speculation.


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## TarheelTraveler (Feb 20, 2008)

Is this type of booking practice common for other DCs?  I know that some have a drawing based on member submission of requests (i.e., you put in your top choices for a holiday and location, and then the DC fulfills those requests based on preference).  I feel like the HCC system would benefit someone like me who plans far in advance and is willing to be up at midnight one year in advance, but I could see that process being a turn off for others.


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 20, 2008)

We have had very positive experiences with HCC and holidays (it is starting to get tougher), but there is NO destination club that will guarantee a location on your narrow criteria.

Yes, you have an extremely good chance of getting exactly what you want with HCC, but NY and Christmas is ultra-desirable and spring break will depend on how many other HCC members have Spring Break the same week as you.

The only guarantee is a fixed week option (none exist in a DC) or rent via VRBO.

I think a HCC membership is still an awesome deal for people during the summer and also certain holidays, but your criteria is so narrow (ski-in/out) and NY/xmas/spring break that there is a possibility that you could not get your first choice for the week you want EVERY year.

I am a HUGE HCC cheerleader, but I don't recommend it for everyone. If you loosen your criteria, then I think HCC will work very well for you.

What do you typically spend on VRBO for rentals ($ per night) and let's see how that compares to the HCC cost.


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## vivalour (Feb 20, 2008)

TarheelTraveler said:


> I feel like the HCC system would benefit someone like me who plans far in advance and is willing to be up at midnight one year in advance, but I could see that process being a turn off for others.



It's not a matter of advance planning and being up at midnight, but having to be up at midnight AND be able to work the system skillfully enough to get your choice(s). Admittedly, some TS owners have an edge on newbie DC owners when it comes to these booking skills. The system you describe sounds fairer than HCC's, imo.


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 20, 2008)

This is one of the potential problems with HCC (note I said potential as I do not consider this a current problem...yet) as they sell more 1-2 week membership plans.

Most DCs offer 3-4 week plans and have a low member to home ratio and MANY of the members do not use all their allocated time. I think it is safe to assume that anyone joining HCC or any other DC with a 7-14 night plan will use 100% of their time.

HCC sells a lot of 15 and 25 night plans, but anyone considering a 7 night plan or 15 night plan and wants GUARANTEED ski-in/out on NY or xmas or Spring Break EVERY year may be in for a disappointment.


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## vivalour (Feb 20, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> This is one of the potential problems with HCC (note I said potential as I do not consider this a current problem...yet) as they sell more 1-2 week membership plans.
> 
> HCC sells a lot of 15 and 25 night plans, but anyone considering a 7 night plan or 15 night plan and wants GUARANTEED ski-in/out on NY or xmas or Spring Break EVERY year may be in for a disappointment.



See above: the poster is asking about long-term holiday reservations one year in advance, which HCC does not offer under the standard 7-day and 15-day memberships. 

The way I see it, under the current system it's posssible that someone with 25 days does not snag their first holiday choice ANY year!


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## seatrout (Feb 20, 2008)

Is it possible to REQUEST a location under HCC system.??
ie 1 1/2 year prior, and have a 1st request gets it.

Or is the system a mad dash at 12.01 am with atomic clock for the 
holiday week as in Marriott ??


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## vivalour (Feb 20, 2008)

seatrout said:


> Is it possible to REQUEST a location under HCC system.??
> ie 1 1/2 year prior, and have a 1st request gets it.
> 
> Or is the system a mad dash at 12.01 am with atomic clock for the
> holiday week as in Marriott ??



No and yes.


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## LastTrueFamilyMan (Feb 20, 2008)

vivalour said:


> So why not take a test drive for a year and see how it works out for you? I think HCC is  still offering a 100% refund of membership (not fees though) if you decide it doesn't work out.


Good suggestion - HCC does still promise 100% back if you resign in the first year.



> I think a HCC membership is still an awesome deal for people during the summer and also certain holidays, but your criteria is so narrow (ski-in/out) and NY/xmas/spring break that there is a possibility that you could not get your first choice for the week you want EVERY year.


Steamboat Bill, I wouldn't expect to get my first choice property every year.  As long as I could get a decent ski property (not necessarily ski-in/out) somewhere every year, I'd be fine with that.  Are you thinking I may be completely out of luck at all the ski properties if I don't time my 12:01 a.m. selections right? 



> What do you typically spend on VRBO for rentals ($ per night) and let's see how that compares to the HCC cost.


I'm just getting back into skiing now that my family is ready to start taking one or two annual ski trips so I don't have any actual vrbo experience to compare.  But, I checked vrbo for the 5 HCC ski-in/out locations (Snowmass Terrace House, Copper Mill Club, Keystone Red Hawk, Beaver Creek Village Hall, and Telluride Owl Meadows) for both New Year's and Spring Break.  The nightly average for the five for NY's is $1,035 per night and for Spring Break it is $711.  Of course, Beaver Creek at $1,910/$1,375 really skews the average.  I also checked the rates for the same properties in a 2 bedroom (again, large enough to accomodate my family - the extra bedrooms would be a bonus to invite friends and family along with us).  The average nightly rate for both holidays  is $430, but drops to $382 per night if you take Beaver Creek out.  There are some less expensive options that are actually closer to the slopes in some of those locations.  Also, the flexibility with airfare is cost savings with vrbo not available with HCC.

The trouble I have with running HCC cost per night calculations is accounting for the eventuality that they go out of business in 3 years, 5 years, or 10 years.  If I choose to leave, and they get two new members to replace me, I get 80% back.  I can run numbers based on the fact that I know I don't want to get out before at least ten years.  But if they close shop, the contract provides that the refund is available assets up to a maximum 60% refund.  So, if they shut their doors in 5 years, and I have $70,000 paid in for a 35 night a year plan, the cost per night previously calculated based on opportunity cost and annual dues gets a +$160.00 a night add for my lost $28,000.  I know that is part of the risk with this budding industry, and the flip side to that is I may be buying in to something that lasts 10+ years and has 4 times the properties available now for the same price I would be locking in by joining today.



> It's not a matter of advance planning and being up at midnight, but having to be up at midnight AND be able to work the system skillfully enough to get your choice(s).


Do you mean literally the timing of pressing the submit button?  Or are you talking about choosing which property to go after?  Doesn't seem like there is much to work other than hitting the button at the right time.

I've asked Dan Moorhead at HCC for a reservation report listing the date and exact time all of their ski properties were booked for the weeks of Dec. 27, 2008, Mar. 14, 2008, and Dec. 28, 2007.  That should give me a pretty good idea of what is going on with the different properties.

Thanks for all the help here.

Take care,
LTFM


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## Tedpilot (Feb 20, 2008)

LTFM - Sounds like you need to go the VRBO route to guarantee your dates.  However, keep in mind that only about half of the HCC members can book holiday reservations one year out.  

I hope that HCC will eventually go to a lottery system for the holidays as they do for new releases.


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## LastTrueFamilyMan (Feb 20, 2008)

Tedpilot said:


> I hope that HCC will eventually go to a lottery system for the holidays as they do for new releases.


If HCC did that, my chances would be even worse to get a ski property on a specific week.  If I thought HCC was going to go to that, my decision would be easy not to join HCC.  Do you or others think there is a high degree of probability that they will go to a lottery?

Thanks,
LTFM


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## pwrshift (Feb 20, 2008)

I agree that a lottery system would not be an incentive for me to join.  This might be a temporary solution for a brand new high demand property like the new Hawaii one with a private golf course for the first year, but long term I don't like it.  The 12.01 a.m. system has its faults just like the floating timeshare system, but unless you spring for the Affiliate level you can't book a Holiday week anyways, and then only one a year.


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## Tedpilot (Feb 20, 2008)

LTFM/Pwrshift - Ironic as one of my issues was the reservation system when I joined.  I hate the current idea of being the first to click my mouse...

I'd much prefer a lottery system to what we have now.  Personally, I have better things to do then hope my click of the mouse happens at the right instant for a particular property.  I would also think that it is not always possible for all people to have access to a computer to make the reservations at an instant in time.  I've also booked via phone and email so I would think that some people prefer these methods too.

The nice thing about the lottery is that you can put in your requests early and then the central computer software does the work.  A lot could be deciphered from this...maybe coming up to the reservation point the computer puts out automated emails with your probability of attaining a specific reservation and you could modify your plan accordingly.  Example:  For Xmas, you see that you are one of 38 people that wants XYZ, but ABC only has 10 people requesting it...that may sway your decision to put in for a close 2nd or re-prioritize your desires all together.

In any case, I think the system to book high demand locations/times ought to be equitable and transparent.  Delineating who gets what when by the timing of a click in a single medium is unpractical and destined for failure as some peope view, true or not, that others have an advantage.  

The fog and friction of computer networks, power outages, and sytem abnomolies all add to a very low but plausible probability that at some juncture there will be members that are slighted an opportunity that is beyond there control.  That would be deflating for me.

Do I think HCC will change their system of reserving holidays?  Yes.  Will it be as I described, likely not but I would gather that I am not too far off from what we'll eventually see.


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## texdoc (Feb 20, 2008)

LTFM,

I joined HCC last July so this December was my first attempt at a Christmas/New Years holiday (for December 2008).  Although I did make the reservation just after midnight, I am by no means an expert with the reservation system.  That said, I booked my first choice ski location without difficulty.  In fact, I've made nine reservations to date and have never had the situation arise where I was "beaten at the buzzer".:rofl:


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 21, 2008)

I think most timeshare p[eople are used to setting their atomic clock and it was "my idea" to change HCC to EST and add an official clock on their web site.

Most DC people are lazy and are not interested in logging in 365 days in advance at 12:00:01 to snag a reservation.

I also think a lottery is "most fair" as it eliminates any competitive advantages or trickery.

Here is how it could be set up:

1. Choose a hot week like Christmas
2. List your top 5-10 resorts
3. Let the computer sort the matches with full randomization


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## LTTravel (Feb 21, 2008)

*Lottery system*

edited for redirection


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## LastTrueFamilyMan (Feb 21, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I think most timeshare p[eople are used to setting their atomic clock and it was "my idea" to change HCC to EST and add an official clock on their web site.
> 
> Most DC people are lazy and are not interested in logging in 365 days in advance at 12:00:01 to snag a reservation.
> 
> ...



Under this scenario, would you have an equal chance of not getting a property at all as you would getting your 1 - 10 properties?  Are you really saying that in the name of "fairness," you're willing to chance not getting a property for a desired week determined solely by computer randomization?  The current system awards being proactive and gives the member some control as to what property they get.  I can't believe someone would want to give that up in the name of supposed fairness.  Why craft a system around and in view of the fact that a lot of members are lazy?    

This kind of sounds like a free market, capitalism vs. socialism debate.  A lot of people think a socialist society is better because it is "fairer."  I guess I happen to like my DC's like a like my economic systems - keep it free and reward individual effort.  (Steamboat Bill - I'm not accusing you of advocating socialism at all, your argument for a lottery just reminded me so much of some of the classic arguments for socialism I couldn't help but make the comparison.) 

Texdoc, thanks for the report on your experiences.  That is encouraging.

Take care,
LTFM


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## TarheelTraveler (Feb 21, 2008)

LTFM - I hear what you're saying.  The HCC system would definitely benefit someone like me.  I can plan well enough to know where I want to go a year in advance and plan to be up at midnight a year in advance, but I think that I'm in the minority.

DCs are supposed to take the stress out of travel and travel planning and that has been my personal experience.  I think the 12:01 system would be a turn-off for many who are unaccustomed to the timeshare or frequent flyer mileage redemption world.


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## vivalour (Feb 21, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Most DC people are lazy and are not interested in logging in 365 days in advance at 12:00:01 to snag a reservation.
> 
> I also think a lottery is "most fair" as it eliminates any competitive advantages or trickery.



I wouldn't agree that most DC members are lazy (maybe rich and spoiled, though). I think we DCers need quite a bit of initiative to find/research DCs, pay the bills, and organize ourselves to use the system!

I also love capitalism and competition but would like to know the options for a more equitable (i.e. equality of opportunity) system of making DC bookings that eliminates possible "trickery".  Maybe a lottery isn't best, but it makes chance/luck the universal determinant of who gets what, when. I admit that we haven't been HCC members long enough to really be critical, and did manage to get what we wanted on two bookings, imo a combination of pure luck and good planning.


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## LastTrueFamilyMan (Feb 21, 2008)

vivalour said:


> I also love capitalism and competition but would like to know the options for a more equitable (i.e. equality of opportunity) system of making DC bookings that eliminates possible "trickery".  Maybe a lottery isn't best, but it makes chance/luck the universal determinant of who gets what, when.


I guess I fail to see how the current system contains "trickery."  Since I haven't used the system, I'm not saying it's not there, I just don't understand how it's there.

It seems like the current system contains an element of both reward for effort (staying up at midnight 365 days in advance) and luck (pushing the button at the right time, internet lag, etc.).  To the extent anyone can choose to plan ahead and stay up and everyone is subject to internet anomalies, the system seems to give a level playing field and accordingly, is "fair."  

-LTFM


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## vivalour (Feb 21, 2008)

LastTrueFamilyMan said:


> I guess I fail to see how the current system contains "trickery."  Since I haven't used the system, I'm not saying it's not there, I just don't understand how it's there.
> 
> It seems like the current system contains an element of both reward for effort (staying up at midnight 365 days in advance) and luck (pushing the button at the right time, internet lag, etc.).  To the extent anyone can choose to plan ahead and stay up and everyone is subject to internet anomalies, the system seems to give a level playing field and accordingly, is "fair."
> 
> -LTFM



Well -- join up and join the party!


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 21, 2008)

What I am trying to say is severalfold.

1. I have been extremely happy with my past 1.5 years as a member of HCC.

2. I have gotten every reservation I wanted at the time I wanted, without fail.

3. I have noticed that as we add more members, especially TUG members and 1-2 week members, they are much more diligent about booking 365 days in advance at 12 midnight and using 100% of their allocated days.

4. Every other DC I have ever seen (including HCC) has extremely lazy members in terms of booking a property 365 days in advance. Perhaps lazy is not a good word as I never book my Disney DVC vacations at the 11 month mark and regularly book DVC (at school vacations) at 3-4 months. I am not sure this will work with HCC.

5. As I said, a lottery is a "more fair" system in my opinion, I did not say it was a perfect system. I just think it is silly to be pressured to log in at midnight 365 days before a booking.

6. I am very open to new ideas for a fair system.

7. I am sure people that were shut out of NYC for NYE and then tried to switch to Beaver Creek and were shut out, and then tried Breacenridge and was shut out...etc.


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 21, 2008)

How about a hybrid system:

1. Lottery system for each holiday week as I described where you choose your top 1-25 properties. You could choose only 1 property (and put all your eggs in one basket) or choose up to 25 resorts in order of your preference.

2. Start an online lottery (form filled out online) at 9pm EST 365 days in advance where you get to input your choices and freeze accepting applications at 11:30pm and let the computer match them at midnight.


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## vineyarder (Feb 21, 2008)

PE has a lottery for Xmas/NY and it seems to work well.  It rewards flexibility, and takes into account past performance in the lottery.  Basically, in January of each year, members that want to book a Xmas or NY week fill out an online request during a 2 week registration period; you can list just one choice (i.e. Cabo at Xmas) or you can list as many choices as you'd be happy with.  At the end of the registration period, the computer runs a matching program, and you are notified as to whether or not you 'matched'.  If you matched, you are automatically reserved for the week that matched.  If you didn't match, you get rewarded with 'points' that increase your liklihood of success the next year; the more flexible your request, the more points you get, and the higher your priority the next year.  Also, if you sit out the lottery, as you don't plan to travel at that time, you get some points.  The more points you've acculated, the more likely you are to get your first choice.  When you match, your point balance is zeroed out and you start over the next year at the lowest priority.  Even so, you may well be able to get a Xmas or NY week the next year if you are flexible enough.


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## vivalour (Feb 21, 2008)

vineyarder said:


> PE has a lottery for Xmas/NY and it seems to work well.  It rewards flexibility, and takes into account past performance in the lottery.



I like it. Sounds like a hassle for admin, though. I guess they invested in software to deal with it.


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 21, 2008)

vineyarder said:


> PE has a lottery for Xmas/NY and it seems to work well.  It rewards flexibility, and takes into account past performance in the lottery.  Basically, in January of each year, members that want to book a Xmas or NY week fill out an online request during a 2 week registration period; you can list just one choice (i.e. Cabo at Xmas) or you can list as many choices as you'd be happy with.  At the end of the registration period, the computer runs a matching program, and you are notified as to whether or not you 'matched'.  If you matched, you are automatically reserved for the week that matched.  If you didn't match, you get rewarded with 'points' that increase your liklihood of success the next year; the more flexible your request, the more points you get, and the higher your priority the next year.  Also, if you sit out the lottery, as you don't plan to travel at that time, you get some points.  The more points you've acculated, the more likely you are to get your first choice.  When you match, your point balance is zeroed out and you start over the next year at the lowest priority.  Even so, you may well be able to get a Xmas or NY week the next year if you are flexible enough.



I consider this a very "fair" policy.


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## pwrshift (Feb 21, 2008)

Whenever our lotteries have prizes over $20 million I usually spring for a ticket as Canadian lotteries are paid whole and not taxable.  But I've never won.     I would be afraid that would happen on a DC booking lottery too -- or I'd get a week I really didn't want.

I assume this matter applies only to those members with 'affiliate' levels or higher as apparently you can't even book a long-term holiday week if you didn't buy the proper status.


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## vivalour (Feb 21, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> Whenever our lotteries have prizes over $20 million I usually spring for a ticket as Canadian lotteries are paid whole and not taxable.  But I've never won.     I would be afraid that would happen on a DC booking lottery too -- or I'd get a week I really didn't want.



I'd say your odds are much better in an HCC draw than with LotoCanada.
Never bought a lottery ticket myself, but won 3 sets of hockey tickets over one year at the car wash.


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## vineyarder (Feb 21, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> Whenever our lotteries have prizes over $20 million I usually spring for a ticket



So you only participate when your odds are the worst?

If you do win, will you use part of the winnings to replace the shag carpet at the Marriott Ft. Lauderdale?


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## pwrshift (Feb 21, 2008)

Vineyarder -- instead of being a pitch man for HCC membership, isn't it time for you to spring for $15 and become a member of TUG so you can feel more free to discourage Tuggers from posting on this board when they disagree with your opinion. Like it or not, TUG has been a place for free but constructive opinion, not childish put downs.



vineyarder said:


> So you only participate when your odds are the worst?
> 
> If you do win, will you use part of the winnings to replace the shag carpet at the Marriott Ft. Lauderdale?


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## LastTrueFamilyMan (Feb 21, 2008)

vivalour said:


> Well -- join up and join the party!


I believe I'm almost to that point.  I received some information today that I was waiting on in the due diligence department that looked good.


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## LastTrueFamilyMan (Feb 21, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> 7. I am sure people that were shut out of NYC for NYE and then tried to switch to Beaver Creek and were shut out, and then tried Breacenridge and was shut out...etc.


SB,

This is precisely the scenario I was worried about and why I started the thread to ask if this is happening.  Thankfully, that has not been the experience reported.  

Also, I received a requested report from HCC today on the exact time all their ski properties (not just ski-in/out) booked for New Year's 2008, 2007, and the first week of Spring Break 2008.  There were ski properties open for each of those holidays well after the midnight deadline.  New Year's 08 was the tightest (as you might expect with more members), but you could have booked Copper 45 days after 12:01 (I wonder if this was a cancellation?), Arrowhead 16 minutes after, Deer Valley 12 minutes after, Mammoth over 10 hours after, and Steamboat 16 minutes after.  All other properties booked within 3 minutes.  Spring Break had tons of opportunities to book.  

Given the opportunities for booking reflected in the stats above if you're the least bit proactive, I would hate to see that window of opportunity closed by a lottery system.  Thankfully, Dan Moorhead, HCC CFO, said he doesn't think they will institute that since they already have the 1 in 3 rule.  They will just continue to do a lottery for newly released properties.

To sum up, I like what I saw in the report, and I continue to move toward membership.

Thanks for all the thoughts and great discussion here.

-LTFM


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## vivalour (Feb 22, 2008)

LTFM: Good job at hunting down all that data. Goes to show my paranoia may not be founded in reality. Good night all.:zzz:


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## vineyarder (Feb 22, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> Vineyarder -- instead of being a pitch man for HCC membership, isn't it time for you to spring for $15 and become a member of TUG so you can feel more free to discourage Tuggers from posting on this board when they disagree with your opinion. Like it or not, TUG has been a place for free but constructive opinion, not childish put downs.



So when you make snide remarks, they are 'witty expressions of free but constructive opinion', but when anyone else makes a comment you don't like, it is a 'childish put-down'.   Verrrry interesting.  Where is the 'childish put-down' in a factual statement regarding the odds of winning a lottery?  Who is trying to discourage people from posting????  Or is your definition of a childish put-down any statement which you are unable to refute?

*Of course it borders on the truly absurd that you would interpret a comment pointing out the fallacy of only buying lottery tickets when the prize is over $20M as being a pitch for HCC!   And my only other post in this thread was a suggestion for how HCC should CHANGE their system to one that I thought was better... pretty bizzare that you would think that was a 'pitch' for HCC...*

And your comment regarding TUG membership is a true non-sequitor; are you saying that if I paid $15 and my profile said "TUG member" then my comments would no longer be offensive to you?  Or are you implying that it is OK for TUG members to make posts you consider offensive but not for guests to do so?  OTOH, you state that I should join TUG so that _"you can feel more free to discourage Tuggers from posting on this board when they disagree with your opinion"_, yet, in your opinion, I am already doing just that, even though I am a guest, not a member... So your concern is that you feel that I am doing this, but that I don't actually _feel free _to do so, i.e. I am internally conflicted over this monumental issue?  So you are attempting to assuage some presumed guilt, so that I can continue to submit posts that you find offensive, but without guilt or internal turmoil???  Thanks *so* much for your concern!

Seriously, last I checked, the point of TUG membership was to have access to areas of the website that guests do not have access to.  Since I have no interest in any area of the TUG website other than this one forum, I have never had any reason to change my status.  If you and other TUG members do not want guests posting on this forum, then change the policy.  OTOH, If the membership fee for TUG is intended to be a donation to support the forum, I would be glad to donate.  Philosophically I just like to see a donation called a donation, and a membership fee be a fee that provides with you with access to services or privileges that you desire.  Call it a donation and I'll donate.


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## tripTX (Feb 22, 2008)

*No problems so far*

I know lots of you have shared your experiences on this already, but I have found the current system to work very well.

I have been a member for less than a year (Summer 2007).  I have booked 10 trips so far -- seven for my first membership year and three for next year.  I haven't had any trouble with my choice being "stolen" away at the last minute by any tricks or failure of luck.  That's not to say some of my top choices weren't already taken by the time it came around to use one of my short term reservations.  But that's because other members planned ahead and used long term reservations of their own to book properties that were important to them.

I personally would be very opposed to any kind of lottery system.  The current system allows you to plan ahead carefully if a week is very important to you and not to worry as much when you're more flexible.  You aren't guaranteed to get that week you REALLY want, but the group of other people (if any) trying to book immediately when the week is released only includes those to whom it is really important.  I think a lottery system would expand this group to others who care less about that particular week and would decrease your chances.

If there is an HCC property I really hope to visit a certain week, I set aside one of my long term reservations and I carefully plan to book it as soon as it is available.  I did that for a Christmas ski week next year -- to take the extended family.  Because of HCC's rule about only taking a specific holiday once every three years, I know I'll sit Christmas out the following two years to give others a chance to use the properties.  I'm happy to do that since I'll have had my turn.

We have thoroughly enjoyed these first seven months with HCC.  The trips have been a blast, and the properties/locations have exceeded our expectations.  We've seen four of the 30+ properties so far and look forward to many more!  I hope they keep the current booking system as it is.


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## saluki (Feb 22, 2008)

I assume that the HCC reservation software has built-in safeguards preventing people from being "forgetful" & booking long-term holidays that they are not entitled to.

Can someone confirm?


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## mjs (Feb 22, 2008)

tripTX;474181

I personally would be very opposed to any kind of lottery system.  The current system allows you to plan ahead carefully if a week is very important to you and not to worry as much when you're more flexible.  You aren't guaranteed to get that week you REALLY want said:
			
		

> I also think the HCC reservation system should REMAIN as is.  It only allows booking a particular holiday once every 3 yrs, and yes, you do need to plan ahead.
> Mark


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## Bourne (Feb 22, 2008)

saluki said:


> I assume that the HCC reservation software has built-in safeguards preventing people from being "forgetful" & booking long-term holidays that they are not entitled to.
> 
> Can someone confirm?



I can. 

I had used up my Long Term holiday week. Tried to book another holiday week a few hours back but the system threw up an error message. Had to cancel the previous reservation before booking the new one. 

The validation is built into the software. 

That said, a Mexico Christmas week just opened up. Still up for grabs if anyone wants it. Got myself 14 days in T&C during the dreaded Chicago winter.


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 22, 2008)

Here is an interesting thread on HCC availability for Presidents Week 2009.

http://www.destinationclubforums.com/f4/hcc-presidents-week-2009-a-462.html#post1277


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## PerryM (Feb 24, 2008)

*A suggestion...*

I believe this topic of how to equitably allow DC members holiday weeks was discussed many moons ago.  I am not a DC member but this topic is applicable to timeshares too.

Out of all the schemes I’ve heard the one I like the best, and maybe someone from HCC is reading this, is based upon a scarce resource in a free market.

Basically each member, who can get a holiday week, is given 100 “Holiday Points” on their anniversary – NOT all members getting it all at once.  You join today and get 100 Holiday Points.  You decide how to allocate those Points for the next year and reservations are made just 6 months ahead of time.

This is a web page where you allocate your Holiday Points and can change your mind up until 1 second before the 6 month lead.  This is a sealed bid auction with no one knowing who is bidding, how much is bid, and how many members are bidding.

Exactly 6 months at Midnight EST the computer awards the week to the highest sealed bid.  If there are ties a timestamp is used for when the bid was submitted or last modified.

The losers get back their Points bid and these Points are good forever.

Members can sell their Points to others via an auction page and members get to bid on the Points.  Winners are notified and the winner and original member make arrangements for payment and exchange of Points which any member can move to another’s account.

e.g.
Christmas week you really want a Ski week at Vail (just making up locations) and bid ALL 100 Points.  This is Feb and the member can change his/her bid up until 6 months before the check-in day.  However changing the bid resets the timestamp.

e.g.
You could vacation in Maui or Vail or Park City for New Year’s week and want 4th of July too in Whistler or NYC:

Week 52 Maui – 20 Points
Week 52 Vail – 20 Points
Week 52 Park City – 20 Points
4th of July week in Whistler – 20 Points
4th of July week in NYC – 20 Points

As time goes by and holiday weeks are won or lost the members are always planning ahead and eventually they will use their Points and get holiday weeks that they want.

e.g.
You want week 51 in Vail and Week 52 in Vail:
Buy 50 Holiday Points for $100 each and spend $5,000 and now have 150 Points

Bid Week 51 Vail for 75 Points and week 52 Vail 75 Points

I, personally would like to see this implemented in a DC or timeshare – I can’t think of an easier and more flexible system that allows members the ability to decide how they want to vacation and set a priority of what means the most to them.


If I remember correctly one DC has something close to this now.


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## vivalour (Feb 24, 2008)

Sorry PerryM, but this sounds very much like a pure timeshare scheme to me, and doesn't follow the KISS principle behind most DCs. We joined the DC world so that we wouldn't have to spend our "free" time fussing around with trades, points, BODs, CODs, or whatever.


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## vineyarder (Feb 24, 2008)

PerryM said:


> I believe this topic of how to equitably allow DC members holiday weeks was discussed many moons ago.  I am not a DC member but this topic is applicable to timeshares too.
> 
> Out of all the schemes I’ve heard the one I like the best, and maybe someone from HCC is reading this, is based upon a scarce resource in a free market.
> 
> ...



Seems like a reasonable system, except that I'd want it done 12 months out instead of 6 months out, so that I could take advantage of airline 'free' tickets and lower fares that often need to be booked 329 days in advance... For example, I have reservations for both Thanksgiving and Xmas next year, and while waiting for our school board to finally approve next year's school schedule, the best fares for Thanksgiving have gone from $236pp to $651pp (don't know if I can leave on Tuesday or Wednesday) and for Xmas have gone from $880 to $1600 (don't know yet when they go back to school)... And while both routes had FC seats available for miles at 329 days out, now all that's left are double-mile coach seats...  So IMHO this would be a good system if it was 12 months out...


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## pwrshift (Feb 24, 2008)

Here's a fly anytime solution for some DC members with money to burn:

http://jets.halogenguides.com/


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## PerryM (Feb 25, 2008)

vivalour said:


> Sorry PerryM, but this sounds very much like a pure timeshare scheme to me, and doesn't follow the KISS principle behind most DCs. We joined the DC world so that we wouldn't have to spend our "free" time fussing around with trades, points, BODs, CODs, or whatever.




DCs suffer the same problem of timeshares – *too many owners/members chasing too few holiday weeks*.  DCs seem to try to address this problem the same way timeshares do – make some owners “special” by paying more money.

There are only Christmas, New Years, and President’s weeks for ski resorts – at least 8 members bought that condo and with “sub memberships” the number just increases.

I can’t imagine that these 3 weeks just doddle out there for members to leisurely make a call a few months ahead of time.  The 5+ other members want to share the ski vacation with the kids and pulling them out of school is hard to do and many private schools are cause to kick the kids out of their school.

Summer months are probably much easier to handle with the exception of 4th of July.

Maybe the DC industry has found a simple solution that is equitable and members have no gripes with holiday usage – bravo for DCs.


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## vivalour (Feb 25, 2008)

PerryM said:


> DCs suffer the same problem of timeshares – *too many owners/members chasing too few holiday weeks*.  DCs seem to try to address this problem the same way timeshares do – make some owners “special” by paying more money.
> 
> There are only Christmas, New Years, and President’s weeks for ski resorts – at least 8 members bought that condo and with “sub memberships” the number just increases.
> 
> ...



As described here, DCs have looked at different ways to deal with this. One limits the number of families with school-age children. I can see that being retired, single or childless is a big advantage in maxing out DC & timeshare usage. However, we are part of that crowd that has to design vacations to fit the school calendar, and we can learn to adapt. Personally, I couldn't care less about DC ski properties over the holidays, since we have excellent skiing 1/2 hour drive from our home, or if we want to go farther afield, 2 hours away by car. 

On the other hand, IMO, for those of us who live in the northeast (U.S. & Canada) there is more of a shortage of east-coast summer and winter beach properties in HCC's portfolio. I know they are looking to add more. So that may take some of the pressure off the current locations over school holidays.


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## vineyarder (Feb 25, 2008)

PerryM said:


> pulling them out of school is hard to do and many private schools are cause to kick the kids out of their school.



A bit tangential, but an interesting regional variation; around here, many people send their kids to private schools *because* the private schools don't mind if you pull the kids out to travel, whereas the public schools do object (since the public schools get paid by the state based on daily attendance whereas the private schools are paid by mom & dad regardless of attendance).



> One limits the number of families with school-age children. I can see that being retired, single or childless is a big advantage in maxing out DC & timeshare usage.



At least one DC that started that way has now abandoned the quota on families with school-age kids, as they found that many older couple with grown kids were still competing for the same holidays, as they were working around the grandkids school schedules, so it didn't have the desired effect...



> Personally, I couldn't care less about DC ski properties over the holidays, since we have excellent skiing 1/2 hour drive from our home



That's the great thing about having a diverse membership; we live at a beach resort, so we like to get away to either a ski place or the big city to get in the holiday spirit with some cold weather...


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## seatrout (Feb 25, 2008)

vineyarder said:


> A bit tangential, but an interesting regional variation; around here, many people send their kids to private schools *because* the private schools don't mind if you pull the kids out to travel, whereas the public schools do object (since the public schools get paid by the state based on daily attendance whereas the private schools are paid by mom & dad regardless of attendance).
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I absolutely agree with you on this-- BUT the people at the "Private" schoolboard  DON'T.  I had long heated discussion with the principle and member of the board regarding our private shool attendance policy.  It is unfortunately but many have not ever been to Disney during non holiday.  They have the general impression that spoil parent who take no appreciation of education take their kids out of school during normal school day. In our region, Public school is more flexible with absence.


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## PerryM (Feb 25, 2008)

Where I teach 50% of the kids go to private school and every private school in St. Louis has a strict policy of kicking kids out of their school (they have long waiting lines to get in) if the kids are gone during holiday weeks that the school is open.

I know a few families that think vacations are so important that they removed the kids from private school and send them to public school and have private tutors to supplement.  Those public schools are very good and the parents grew up in families that never went on vacation - mom and dad too busy with their careers.

So my experience is that all these folks fight for reservations at timeshares they own - many bought because I tell everyone all the great adventures our family goes on.

If DCs have solved this problem I have yet to understand how they do it.  I keep hearing they have solved it but never seem to nail down corroborating evidence.  Something about so many holiday weeks and not enough members?


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## TarheelTraveler (Feb 25, 2008)

I don't think that DCs have necessarily solved the "holiday problem," but it's generally much better than timeshares in my experience unless you have a fixed holiday week timeshare.  To me, it's mainly a function of utilzation ratios.  With most DCs, you typically have seven or eight members per residence and an overall occupancy rate of 45-65%.  In contrast, timeshares have a 100% sold rate and pretty high occupancy rate.  With a DC, you also pay for the lower utilization ratio and better availability in most cases (although maybe not as much as you would think because of the higher timeshare sales overhead).


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## vineyarder (Feb 26, 2008)

PerryM said:


> If DCs have solved this problem I have yet to understand how they do it.



IMO it is not so much a 'solution' as a matter of managing expectations; most DCs are pretty upfront about holiday usage restrictions, and warn potential members that 'if you want Cabo every Xmas or Deer Valley every New Years, it's just not going to happen, and a DC probably isn't for you'...


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