# The Grand Mayan Scams Senior Citizens



## MAIDENPHILLY (Sep 27, 2010)

Hello, I am writing this with my daughter.  I was in Mexico for a funeral of a very close loved one.  I usually travel with my children or my church group so I am not accustomed to travelling alone.  Now before anyone jumps on me for not being a responsible adult or for signing a contract that was not properly explained, certianly embellished and turned out to be something I could not afford to maintain.  While the contract to purchase may say that senior citizen fees are reduced and waived at 75 yrs and 77 yrs respectively, I was told that the fees were waved at 70yrs.  I was never advised to consult with an attorney or a tax consultant and effectively what I did was eliminate myself from the ability to collect (the total) Medicare benefits I was previously entitled to and provide a big problem for my children who will be forced to own this property or give it away for nothing because they cannot afford to maintain it for the next 22 years.  I am 75 years old why (other than to scam) would someone who has a fiduciary duty to not write bad contracts sell a 25 year option on a timeshare to someone who, even if I lived to 100 yrs old I surely wouldn't be able to jet from New Jersey to Alcopulco.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who allow their credit to get ruined and not pay on the timeshare, I wanted to try and work out an arrangement with Mayan resorts to exempt me from the Maintenance and Renovation fee since I do not go there and have never once used it.  I own the timeshare, it's paid off.  I have no intention of ever going there and so Im sure someone makes a lot of money off my unused weeks.  Since they are making that money off my guranteed always available Master Grand Suite why not have them pay the fees?  My palace is going to be renovated, Im supposed to pay for that while other people vacation in it?    If you rent out my timeshare (and you know you do since it is a prime 2 weeks) then you pay for the fees.  That's how they told me I could make money off this thing, by renting out to other people and charge them enough to recoup your money and make some money.  Well, since I am not in the business of renting (the Grand Mayan is)  then when you rent my place out charge the appropriate fees. 

While many people might be saying boohoo lady you got yourself into this,  I was not in my right mind when I was there.  In the US it could surely be argued that I was incapable of making the contract.  I know there are many people out there who fall victim to promises and lies and are unfamiliar with contracts, there should be a licensed US bar attorney and tax consultant available during these sales presentations to help US Citizens understahnd the implication of the purchase before they leave the room.  I know if a tax consultant told me that my childrens meger inheritance was going to be taken by a Mexican Congolmerate I would have never purchased this timeshare. 

I highly doubt there is any way to help me at this point before I just stop paying and deal with a forclosure.   The Grand Mayan is not in the business to exempt Maintenance fees, nor are they in the business to negotiate.  I've tried on more than one occasion to tell them that the Senior exemption told to me was 70 yrs.  Unless you have a tape recorder with you just stay away from the sales presentations, you get more fairy tales at those presentations than from an entire afternoon with Mother Goose.


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## siesta (Sep 27, 2010)

we see this happening often unfortunately, and even though ultimately it is your fault for signing the contract, it is still awful what their sales team is capable of.  Here is my advice, repost the entire situation, with AS MANY names as possible sales person, managers, people at the concierge, anythign you can remember, get specific, exactly how it happened, all the nasty tricks they pulled, all the lies and misdirection.  After you do this forward a link to your thread to the Mayan contact you have. Hopefully they will let you out of your contract to avoid the bad press this will cause.  Tell them you will also bring it to your local newspapers attention, and how this is an important scam for senior citizens to watch out for.  Good luck!

edit: It is worth mentioning you have right to rescind (cancel the contract) but must act within the timeframe, refer to your paperwork for that information. This is obviously the best solution if applicable.


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## Tropical lady (Sep 27, 2010)

*had to read several times.......*

Whew !!!  A long and confusing read to TRY to understand the issues.
First, you state you are 75.  What is the issue of being told 70 as the age for reduced MF?  You are at 75 for 50% MF and then 77 for no MF unless this was not negotiated in your contract.  This waiver does exist and is used by all who qualify.  In addition, many of us have a waiver for mandatory MF that you only pay a MF if you use the week....therefore if never used, no MF!
Not sure what this has to do with your Medicare benefits that you referenced.
Grupo Mayan does not rent units (wish they did), charge for renovations, etc.
You never mentioned that you tried to speak with them after the sale or communicated with Member Services.
I certainly do not want to offend anyone, but I have to say that I am suspicious of this story after reviewing the content and the statements made.  If this is legit, I apologize, contact the company and see if it can be worked out before you go through a smear campaign.


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## pittle (Sep 27, 2010)

I must admit that I agree with Tropical lady on some points.  Your post is somewhat confusing and Grupo Mayan does not rent your units. I have been an owner since 1999 and no matter what a salesman tells you, that does not happen!  

When did you purchase this unit?  It sounds like you are past the 5 days that you can rescind with no problems.  It also sounds like you were in Acapulco when you purchased.   Were you given the no mainentance fees unless you go option?  If so, don't worry.  You will have to pay the extra m/f every 5 years.  We do have this on all but 1 of our units and it helps a bunch when family is not traveling with us.

The Grand Mayan is a wonderful place to go and you have several other locations that you or your children & grandchildren can go without even using RCI.  If you cannot rescind, make a special point to use your week and take family members with you.  They may decide that they do want to go there at least until the 25 year renewal comes up.  I certainly understand the feelings you have about your children's obligations. If the unit is only in your name, I would not think that they would be obligated to continue payments or maintenance fees. We are counting on that for some of our timeshares.  Just do not put it in your will.  Actually, they do not have to accept it as an inheritance.

My husband & I own 4 Mayan Palace weeks and 2 Grand Mayan weeks.  All but one of our contracts has the Senior Certificate that you mentioned.  When my husband is 75, we pay 1/2 of the maintenance fees and when he is 77, we will pay no m/f if we are the ones traveling.  We have already made the decision not to renew our contracts when they come up for renewal from 2024 - 2031.   We will get a few "free" m/f weeks on all of our contracts for a few years, but only have 2 that will go until hubby is 86.  I just hope that we still are able to travel then.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 27, 2010)

If I had this sales pitch and bought at 75 years old and had regrets, and paid for the timeshare in full, as you stated, then I would just not pay the maintenance fees and suffer the consequences.  At 75, I wouldn't care about my credit rating.  

It's very hard to read your post.


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## MAIDENPHILLY (Sep 27, 2010)

Hi Tropical, I have no idea why you think I would waste my time lodging a complaint against a company if my story were not "legit" 
I was told there were NO MF fees for seniors 70 + years of age.  I don't care what I initialed obviously I am not denying what I signed and what it all meant at the time. 
Since there were no MF fees last year "due to the economy" (is what I was told) I had no idea that the MF fee from year 2 is past due.  Year 3 MF was exempt for everyone so I am told "due to economy"  Now they want year 2 and year 4 MF Fee and now a Renovation fee.  

If anyone thinks I am full of it I will happily scan a copy of this outrageous invoice and post it. Renovation fee 2009 700.07, Late Fee renovation fee 2009 33.34
MF 2008 684.93
Late MF Fee 2008 34.25 for 08, 08 and now 10

MF 2009 684.93
Late MF Fee 34.25

It is a Mayan Resoirts Invoice and quite clearly is charging for renovation and mf fees.

I called the Accounting and Payments dept at 1.866.888.0587 and so have my children, do you think they are going to tell us "no problem we will waive your fees because your Mom says so"  No way they deny that I heard what I heard and they deny that their sales team took advantage of a senior on her own.  They do not offer US Legal counsel or tax advice even though they sold a piece of real property to a US citizen.   We spoke to them, but aside from waiving fees which they are not going to do, where is my recourse?   Was I supposed to ask the agent on the phone for a miracle?  "Can you rip up my contact and refund my money?  I had no idea what I was doing at the time, I was overcome with grief and emotion and made a financial decision I cannot afford.  

Its great Tropical that these destinations work out for some people, but for someone who is in their 70's a 25 lease deal on ANYTHING is outrageous. 
Thank you siesta, my daughter is coming back over and she has all the notes of who I called after I got home and the original contract with signatures. I only have the New Members Verification Statement annual agreement form that I initialled.


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## pianodinosaur (Sep 27, 2010)

maidenphilly:

El Grupo Maya definitely has a high pressure sales department.  However, now that you have the property, I strongly suggest that you use it or permit members of your family to use it.  The Grand Mayans are excellent resorts.  

If you really want to kick yourself, go to ebay and see what they can be purchased for resale. Then again, most of us here learned about the resale market after a direct purchase.  Welcome to the club.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 27, 2010)

Mayan salespeople are known for their lies, and I still think I wouldn't pay.  

You probably paid a lot of money for this week, so letting go of something that was so costly would be very difficult.  I know it would be for me.  

This is quite a pickle.  Timeshare salespeople are so sleazy.  I don't know how they sleep at night.


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## MAIDENPHILLY (Sep 27, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> If I had this sales pitch and bought at 75 years old and had regrets, and paid for the timeshare in full, as you stated, then I would just not pay the maintenance fees and suffer the consequences.  At 75, I wouldn't care about my credit rating.
> 
> It's very hard to read your post.



I am not trying to garner sympathy but I do not read or write well anymore. It isn't easy to keeps facts and figures in my head straight and I get confused.  I m sorry it is hard to read my posts as a result.

That is what my children are advising rick. Ive never not paid my bills. I wanted to resolve this without going to a forclosure. However my son is very angry that the inital investment will be forfeited if I forclose and if they keep it after my death because they cannot unload it they are stuck paying for the MF fees and they surely will never use the timeshare either.  They will be forced to spend the next 20+ yrs looking for people to use the facility and pay the MF fees in exchange for use to offset the costs.  That's almost a full time job!


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 27, 2010)

Why wouldn't the kids want to use this week?  They could deposit it into an exchange company and go elsewhere.  I know that SFX will take your week, so you needn't pay a huge amount of money to belong to an exchange company.  

Everyone travels, but I have never been to Mexico myself and still haven't the desire to go, but I do know that SFX can get a vacation for your kids that they would really enjoy and might even take you along.  

We take my 82-year-old mother-in-law with us every year to Hawaii, and you aren't that old to travel for a while longer.  

Most timeshares do have maintenance fees annually.  Some Mayan deals include a clause that says you only pay the fees when you use the week.  

Most of my maintenance fees are at over above $881, although I have some that are lower ($630 for one resort), so that is not even a high fee.  What you are dealing with isn't that bad, if you learn to use it for your benefit.  

As far as value, the timeshare has basically zero value.  I hate to tell you that, but it's unfortunately true, because Mayan charges $3K to transfer title to a buyer.  It's difficult just to find someone to take the timeshare for free, with that $3K transfer fee to pay.


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## Conan (Sep 27, 2010)

Is this what happened? 

You purchased one (or two?) weeks in 2008 when you were age 73. The salespeople gave you the impression that you were old enough to never pay maintenance fees, whether or not you were actually using your week.

But your contract actually provides that only now, at age 75, whether or not you use your week, you pay half-maintenance, and at age 77 the maintenance goes away.

And I suppose for the rest of your life starting at age 77 there will be nothing more to pay (but if somebody other than yourself uses the week then the maintenance for that year must be paid?)

As to why you made the purchase even based on their lies, you did not visit in 2008 or 2009 even though you thought you could have done so for free?

And either your children have no desire to use your week, or if they did use it (without you being present) then the mainenance would have to be paid?

It seems to me your biggest economic loss is the price you paid to buy the week(s), perhaps in the range of $15,000 to $30,000. But that money is long gone if you made the purchase years ago.

So you can risk your credit rating and pay nothing (eventually they will probably foreclose). Or you can pay what's past due, and I guess pay the half-maintenance for 2010 and 2011, and then just forget you ever bought it.


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## mikenk (Sep 27, 2010)

WOW!
This was one hard thread to understand.

It sounds like you bought several years ago assuming that there was no maintenance fee for anyone over 70 based on a promise by a friendly Mayan sales person; subsequently, you failed to read your contract to realize it was  actually at 77 (1/2 price at 75). Do I have this right?

Now Grupo Mayan is billing you for the fees owed via the contract. Right?

I'm sorry, but in my mind, what is in the contract should be followed. I have no idea why people refuse to read the contracts before they sign - or even after they sign.

Mike


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## DeniseM (Sep 27, 2010)

_Just curious - when you originally bought this timeshare, how did you plan to use it?_ - Maybe we can help you with that.

Be aware that your children cannot be FORCED to accept an inheritance that they do not want - no one can.  

At this point in time, it is very unlikely that you will be able to get out of this contract because:

1)  US Law/courts have no authority in Mexico.
2)  You purchased several years ago.
3)  A contract out-weighs any verbal promises - whether you read it or not - this is true in the US as well.

It's a long shot, but consider contacting Profeco, a consumer agency in Mexico that helps resolve issues like this.  *More info.*

Before you contact Profeco, spend some time editing your complaint so it is clear and conscise.  In your letter to Profeco, answer these questions and leave out everything else.

1. Exactly what did you buy (include date, contract number, etc.)

2.  Exactly what were you promised verbally.

3.  Exactly what is the problem.

4.  What solution are you looking for.

Leave everything else out - it just confuses your message.


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## aliikai2 (Sep 27, 2010)

*My Mother just flew from Seattle to Kauai*

on Thursday, then to Kona yesterday and they will go to Maui on Wednesday.   She will be 83 next month.  

You are only 75, you should have several great years of use ahead of you, and these resorts are great.

 If you chose not to go the Mexico, you can use RCI or SFX ( San Fransisco Exchange) or TPI ( Trading Places) to trade these weeks into resorts that you can use in the US for both you and your family.

The other option is to not pay the fees, and they will take them back.

 Your family is concerned about that initial investment and trying to protect it, the $20-30K that you paid is already gone, and was as soon as your 5 days after purchase passed 5 years ago . 

So, there are your options. You and your family need to sit down and decide if they want to keep using this membership, or not. It is really that simple.

fwiw,

Greg




MAIDENPHILLY said:


> I am 75 years old why (other than to scam) would someone who has a fiduciary duty to not write bad contracts sell a 25 year option on a timeshare to someone who, even if I lived to 100 yrs old I surely wouldn't be able to jet from New Jersey to Alcopulco.


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## pittle (Sep 27, 2010)

Ok - you have had numerous responses.   Mikenk, aliikai2 and I have each owned at MP, GM, &/or GB or G/L for several years and have a wealth of information about the Grupo Mayan Resorts. We understand your plight, but do need more info - when & where did you purchase would be a start.  Your original post was exceptionally vague, so we cannot help you.


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## Tropical lady (Sep 27, 2010)

Ok Maidenphilly,
If you read the other responses, you will see that others agree in part or with me that your info is confusing and very hard to reply with a good suggestion.  Since some of us do have a t/s with this company, we do understand the good and not so good points of the contracts, but can't offer assistance with something you purchased, we think, in 2008 and are just NOW posting issues.  This is TWO (2) years after the fact IF we read you correctly!!  We are asking....what did you purchase (master room, 1 bdrm, 2 bdrm??), how many weeks, what IS your MF?  Did you get the 75/50%MF and 77 no MF?  Did you get a vacation fair week with the week you purchased?  Did you get the waiver for mandatory MF unless used?
The invoice you referenced that you have been getting for 2 years sounds like you do not have the waivers.  
As suggested, there are options for renting, trading, or just giving it away to get out from the t/s. Other than these suggestions I am not sure what your expectations are.


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## pittle (Sep 28, 2010)

Maidenphilly - the more I read what you posted, it seems like you must have purchased a 1 or 2 bedroom unit at the Grand Mayan in 2004 for your Renovation Fees to be due in 2009. If it is for a 2-bedroom unit, the m/f are lower than most.

As I stated before, we have been owners of Mayan Palace and Grand Mayan units for 11 years.  All of our contracts have the 1 extra maintenance fee for renovation of units every 5 years.  

Yes, in 2009, the maintenance fees were waived if you did not travel.   I was impressed that they did that. This was very unusual in the timeshare industry and none of my other timeshare memberships offered this option.  

It sounds like you have 2 options - don't pay and lose your original investment, or if you are 75 or close, go ahead and pay the 2008 m/f and 2009 renovation fee and start enjoying your timeshare. Like I said, _you_ must go to the resort to get the free usage.   You can take guests with you, but you cannot just send family or friends and not go.  You cannot deposit it with an exchange company or rent it out without paying the m/f.

The 5 year renovation fee will still be due in 2014, 2019, 2024, and by 2029, you can skip the next 25 year renewal that has the 5x the current m/f to re-up.

I know this does not help, but that is how it works.


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## Tropical lady (Sep 28, 2010)

*getting on the band wagon......*

I think Pittle is correct that if you are being billed for a renovation fee, that is an every 5 year occurance for 25 year renewal, you must be 5 years into this contract.  Mikenk and Pittle have posted good, informative comments to you.
However, I can't let go of the fact that you are crying scam when: 1. with no time frames from you we can only surmise that you are probably 5 years into this....5 years and posting now!, 2.  2009 MF's were waived by the company if the week was not used due to the economy.....name another company who did this, 3. during a limited time program a waiver from mandatory MF's if week not used....name another comapny that has this, 4.  Has a program in place to offer MF 50%/at 75 and no MF at 77........what other program has this?  
I reviewed each of my 4 contracts since 2007 and find everything you mentioned is spelled out in each contract or addendum.  As previously mentioned, they do have a right to enforce the contract that you did not understand.
A post like this is an unfair vehicle (I'm referring to time frame involved, lack of specifics with general statements) which will affect ANY t/s company mentioned and diminishes the severity of a true scam that needs to be publicized, discussed, and solutions offered.


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## nazclk (Sep 28, 2010)

*No age limit*

I think there is no age limit they are just out and out crooks.


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## mikenk (Sep 28, 2010)

nazclk said:


> I think there is no age limit they are just out and out crooks.



Huh!! strange and irrelevant comment.

Let's see. Someone signs a contract that clearly says that they owe full maintenance fees until age 75 at which time they owe 50%; at age 77, they owe nothing, In 2009, the company waived maintenance fees for the year if you didn't use. The company does expect the person to pay the back maintenance fees per the contract. Your suggestion is that this company is crooked. Interesting perspective.

In a good ole USA deeded timeshare, the person would owe the back maintenance fees, would owe the full fees until age 80, until age 90, until 100, until 110.  Tell me again, who are the crooks?


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## siesta (Sep 28, 2010)

mikenk said:


> Huh!! strange and irrelevant comment.



I don't think so. I think it is spot on.  I know, I know its a contract, a fool and his money are easily parted, etc etc., but the fact of the matter is senior citizens are often targeted for all sorts of scams.  I feel bad for my elders.


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## mikenk (Sep 29, 2010)

siesta said:


> I don't think so. I think it is spot on.  I know, I know its a contract, a fool and his money are easily parted, etc etc., but the fact of the matter is senior citizens are often targeted for all sorts of scams.  I feel bad for my elders.


 
I understand that senior citizens are targeted for scams; I am one.

The question is: "Despite the flashy title, is this senior citizen getting scammed by the Grand Mayan?"  from this thread, I think not.

I know that because of the high pressure sales tactics of the sales force with their many exaggerations, Grupo Mayan is this forum's primary whipping boy. However, I do not believe in an instant they are targeting senior citizens.

Twice now while vacationing there, I have seen this blind 90ish year old man being escorted out to a chair by the pool and ocean where he likes to stay almost all day; there is a Grand Mayan staff person always there and very attentive to his every need. Things like this are not reported or understood by people who just read threads and draw conclusions.

There is more to judge a resort than just it's sales force. Unfortunately, because of the title of this thread, I assume they will now be judged also as a senior citizen scammer - generally by people who have never been there.


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## pittle (Sep 29, 2010)

I agree with Mikenk - Grupo Mayan gets a bad rap.  Yes, the sales force is more aggressive than many (but not all), but the resorts and service are awesome!  That is why we own a total of 6 weeks and have the option of paying additional m/f and can go 6 more weeks if we want.  

When we have been on vacation we have noticed how many 75+ looking folks take tours at several resorts - not just the Grupo Mayan ones.  My guess is that they are thinking about how nice the resorts are and how much their children would enjoy inheriting these.  They can use a few years and then give them to the kids.

When we bought our first Mayan Palace, we were not seniors, but since we are now in our early 60's and retired, I guess we are there now.  On numerous occasions commented that we hope that when we are 85 like some guests are, that we will still be going there and enjoying our little piece of paradise.  

We bought so that we could go to awesome resorts when we retired, and we do.  We seldom even exchange any more.  We bought where we wanted to go.  We already owned one timeshare when we purchased from the developer, so had already been through the spiel elsewhere and knew they were not telling everything exactly like it was, but we still bought!  We have since purchased additional weeks on eBay and sold other resorts so that we could just concentrate on the Mexico resorts and most specifically MP/GM.  Our family loves to join us at these resorts.

I know that I am not the typical "little old lady".  I learned at a young age to not sign anything unless you read it because what is on paper is what you agreed to.  I am so analytical when making large purchases that it takes me a while and I actually read and ask questions about everything.  Sometimes it embarrasses my hubby, but we do not get the wool pulled over our eyes very often.  The last time we went to an update meeting and did not upgrade, I think the guy was glad we finally left!


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## Tropical lady (Sep 29, 2010)

*scam?......don't think so....*

Thank you Mikenk and Pittle for your comments !!
I don't want to see ANY company accused of a "scam" when the facts don't support it.  Now it shows in a title to a thread and if someone does not read the comments, it becomes an automatic opinion.
I'm skeptical about this particular topic.  Again, I apologize upfront, but if you read the several responses from the poster, they appear to be written by more than the one person.  The wording and ability to post thoughts differ among the paragraphs.  Compare the first paragraph with the others posted.
I keep in mind that forums are for everyone to communicate, inform, educate, and assist one another.  I can't believe we have devoted this many replies to the poster other than to jump on the band wagon.  Yes, we need to identify issues appropriatly, but why would we want to continue to trash the t/s industry that we have bought into and enjoy and want ALL our companies to do well.  It only benefits us !!
BTW.....age has nothing to do with having common sense.  I look forward to enjoying 1/2 at 75 and 0 at 77 which is not that far in the future !!


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## DeniseM (Sep 29, 2010)

The poster stated originally that her daughter was helping her write, so yes, it is being written by more than one person.


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## esk444 (Sep 29, 2010)

mikenk said:


> Huh!! strange and irrelevant comment.
> 
> Let's see. Someone signs a contract that clearly says that they owe full maintenance fees until age 75 at which time they owe 50%; at age 77, they owe nothing, In 2009, the company waived maintenance fees for the year if you didn't use. The company does expect the person to pay the back maintenance fees per the contract. Your suggestion is that this company is crooked. Interesting perspective.



If a salesperson say one thing and makes you sign a contract that says something else, that's still fraud.  

The only problem is that courts don't want to get involved in a million he said, she said battles that are impossible to tell who is telling the truth.  So they devise a short form rule that says what is ever in the contract controls.

Not surprisingly, a lot of unethical and a bunch of crooks exploit that rule by making a whole lot of promises that are not in the contract.  

So this person may not be able to enforce those promises, because it is impossible to prove, but it doesn't make the salesperson any less of a crook or a dishonest person.  And somehow I don't think we are talking about a single rogue salesperson where management has no idea this stuff is being said.

And in a perfect world, everyone would read every word a contract and understand every provision before signing.  Most smart people try to but NO one ever does all the time.


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## bankr63 (Sep 29, 2010)

esk444 said:


> If a salesperson say one thing and makes you sign a contract that says something else, that's still fraud.



aaaand that's 90% of the timeshare salesmen.  If the lips are moving...



> And in a perfect world, everyone would read every word a contract and understand every provision before signing.  Most smart people try to but NO one ever does all the time.



aaaand that's 75% of the "retail" timeshare buyers.  PT Barnum said it best...

I agree with consensus here.  The industry is what it is.  Nothing happened in Mexico that wouldn't happen anywhere else.  GM may have aggressive sales people, buy they don't have that market cornered.  GM actually seems to have some pretty progressive ideas about how to treat their owners pretty well once they are in (like waiving MF for Seniors, or waiving MF completely if not using).

There have been a million attempts to challenge these contracts in court, and the likelihood of getting out of one, especially 4-5 years later (as we are guessing the OP is) has a probability approaching 0%.  

The OP has several good options that have been pointed out here, and is at the point where there will soon be no more MF going forward.  If she actually uses the unit for the next several years without MF she may actually leverage her original investment to a significant degree.

And as for having US legal advice present at Mexican timeshare presentations; well how about Canadian legal advisors, or British legal advisors, or even Mexican legal advisors??  You have the same options in Mexico that you have everywhere else.  Seek legal advice before you sign if you feel you need it.  They may wear you down, and you may be tired and confused, but they still aren't holding a gun to your head, and presumably you will come back to your senses within the rescission period.


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## Conan (Sep 29, 2010)

esk444 said:


> If a salesperson say one thing and makes you sign a contract that says something else, that's still fraud.


 
Unless the saleperson literally makes you sign, the clause in the written contract that supersedes/overrides oral representations is valid and enforceable.  So it's not fraud.


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## mikenk (Sep 29, 2010)

M Ross,

Well summarized.

Regardless of what really happened, because of the title of this thread and the general TUG mindset, Grupo Mayan will now have the added ongoing reputation as unfair to seniors; whereas as far as I know, they are the only ones that give such a discount  to seniors past 75. Just seems a little strange.

Mike


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## pjrose (Sep 29, 2010)

Tropical lady said:


> . . .  I can't believe we have devoted this many replies to the poster other than to jump on the band wagon.  . . .



I feel the same way.  Many of the replies have asked for specific information, but that has not been provided.


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## DeniseM (Sep 29, 2010)

The OP has not been back to TUG since making her original posts on Monday, so she hasn't seen the questions.


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## MuranoJo (Sep 30, 2010)

It's like a dive-bomb:  Leave the 'poop' and disappear.  Yet the 'Poop' stays forevermore, without the chance to clean it up.   

Could this be a result of Tuggers' advice to post an account of how you've been wronged by Grupo and suddenly your issue will be mysteriously resolved?  Why doesn't TUG just start a new forum called, "I've Been Screwed?"  That way, we can give equal voice to all the t/s victims out there, which are obviously far and beyond Grupo or MX. 

But at least we could highlight permanent stickys and make it easier to locate issues for the t/s resorts who care enough to try to fix things (as obviously Grupo has done).


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## DeniseM (Sep 30, 2010)

Let's not put Grupo up on a pedestal - they are simply cleaning up their own messes, when they become PR embarrassments.  

Yes - there are other companies that also have fraudulent sales practices - that doesn't make it right, and doesn't make Grupo the heros.


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## MuranoJo (Sep 30, 2010)

I don't put Grupo on a pedestal, no way.  I really like the Grupo product, but I don't like their sales tactics, and it frustrates and saddens me when I read of another 'victim.' 

What irks me is there are many fraudulent/misleading sales practices in t/s resorts other than Grupo and MX, and most of us have read them here on TUG over the years.  Can anyone give me examples of who else has 'cleaned up their PR embarrassments' on TUG?

Grupo responds to these PR issues posted here, and it becomes a magnet to anyone wanting to get out of their contract, right or wrong. So the exposure escalates...


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## Tropical lady (Sep 30, 2010)

*Where is this poster who needed advice?????*

Muranojo,
Well stated in both of your posts!!  You are creative in suggesting the "I've been screwed" thread where all these vague accusations can go and only IF a true scam has been identified then it can be posted with a company name.  
No one is condoning deception to sell, but let's give credit to ANY company who makes it right.  Suggestion, let's tell posters to communicate with their company FIRST.  Then come back and help will be offered. 
Interesting that the poster has not even bothered so far to read our comments and suggestions or provide information for us as requested. It seemed imperative that ? 4 years after the fact that this whole issue needed to be documented via a long and vague thread.  I remain skeptical as to the intent............


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## nazclk (Oct 1, 2010)

*Facts*

I think the easy way to solve this is do a survey on how many people are happy with there Grupo Mayan timeshares, and put this conversation to rest. 

I'd be willing to bet the unhappy people win. :hysterical:


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## mikenk (Oct 1, 2010)

nazclk said:


> I think the easy way to solve this is do a survey on how many people are happy with there Grupo Mayan timeshares, and put this conversation to rest.



Oh, Give me a break!!! I assume someone could devise a statistically valid way of doing a survey to do that. Of course, it would have to have to be done equally across a wide range of all timeshares to give any validity at all to the results.


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## DeniseM (Oct 1, 2010)

Just curious - Muranojo and Tropical Lady - did you buy from the developer?


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## MuranoJo (Oct 2, 2010)

Denise,

I purchased resale in '02, my very first t/s purchase, but I've personally met two local couples outside of TUG who paid full freight and they are thrilled.  I did not rub it in about resales.  

I have more than paid for my initial purchase and all m/f with rentals, but some of this I'm sure is due to holiday weeks (just pure dumb luck).  Plus, I've made some great trades, and I really like the resorts & people.  I still say it's a great product but their sales reputation tarnishes their brand opportunity.

I'm just saying Grupo isn't the only bad boy with their sales tactics.  And I'm tired of what seems to be a heightened smear campaign of MX as a resort destination.


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## MuranoJo (Oct 2, 2010)

nazclk said:


> I think the easy way to solve this is do a survey on how many people are happy with there Grupo Mayan timeshares, and put this conversation to rest.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet the unhappy people win. :hysterical:



I say we do a survey on Nazclk's real motive for this.  I can come up with a few suggestions, but I may be 'moderated.'  :hysterical:


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## tombo (Oct 2, 2010)

Jeez people, how about a little sympathy? I bet money that if it was your 75 year old mother or grandmother you would feel differently! Can you imagine saying the things to your mother or grandmother that have been said to and about her on this forum. The fact that she got scammed, tricked, lied to, but bought anway without reading the contract she signed is not her fault because she is too trusting. It is the resort's fault for allowing sales people to say anything to make a sale. Blaming her is like blaming a rape victim for wearing provocative clothes or for drinking too much (please don't spend a lot of time arguing differences in my analogy). Let's have some sympathy for the victim and focus some blame on the crooked sales force employed by Grupo!

As far as accusations of her not paying MF's for years and now acting surprised that they are billing her for back MF's, why would she have EVER paid a single MF since she was over the age of 70 when she purchased. Since she was told that at age 70 or older she don't have to pay MF's she would not mail them a check each year she didn't owe for the heck of it. Get a MF bill, throw it in the trash because it doesn't apply to her since she is over the age of 70. So now they are charging her back assessments, MF's, and late charges but since she doesn't owe for one year that the thieves didn't charge anyone MF's for she should be happy because what other resort does that? She made a mistake, she trusted Grupo, she signed a contract based on lies that weren't in writing and is now paying the consequences.  She deserves sympathy, Grupo deserves bad publicity for preying on the elderly. If any of us live long enough to be in our 70's, we will probably have decreased mental accuity too. 

Dear Maidenphilly,

I for one apologize for the lack of sympathy displayed to you on this thread. The posters are correct that you signed, and the contract is all that you legally have to go with, but lying to get you to sign a contract is fraud and misrepresentation which is illegal. Unfortunatelly without witnesses or tape recordings it is your word against theirs. Get with your daughter and write Profeco a heartfelt letter seeing if they will force Grupo to let you out of the the contract. If that doesn't workyou have 2 choices. You can see how your children can get the best use out of it and use it for their vacations, or you can let it go and ruin your credit. If Profeco orGrupo refuse to let you out of the contract you signed under false pretenses post about how you were treated on every forum on the web you can find. Even if it doesn't get your contract cancelled, it might prevent others from falling prey to the same deceptive sales tactics.

I wish you luck and TUG is a great place to learn about timeshares, even if it apparently is not a place to get some well deserved sympathy.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 2, 2010)

*In My Family, We ARE The Old Folks.*




tombo said:


> I bet money that if it was your 75 year old mother or grandmother you would feel differently!


I'm not 75 yet -- only pushing 68 -- but that's the direction I'm heading with all deliberate speed.  

I am over the hill already, but I am not yet too far along the downslope on the other side of the peak -- I don't think I am, anyway, although when I actually get there I could be the last to know. 

I am surprised that the professional full-freight timeshare sellers don't target us old folks more directly than they do.  In some locales -- e.g., Las Vegas, Orlando -- the timeshare tour street headhunters were applying age limits to their invitations to take timeshare tours for freebies the last times we were there.  Married prospects had to show up with spouse, all prospects had to be employed or on retirement pension, had to have credit cards, had to meet some income standard, & had to be 65 or younger. 

Sure, that's age discrimination.  But it surely points in the opposite direction from aiming at bamboozling old folks into signing big bux timeshare purchase agreements they don't understand.  

Orlando & Las Vegas, etc., are USA all the way.  Maybe we sr. citz. are considered fair game in the eyes of the timeshare sellers south of the border, I don't know.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## mikenk (Oct 2, 2010)

Tombo,

You realize that you are making a big assumption that it is really all true and is a pattern of operation. Why those of us that understand the GM system see red flags here is this is not anything that has ever been raised before; many of us are on GM focused forums; lying as to when the senior discount is available has never been suggested. Is it possible that it was done by a sales person, sure. However, to suggest (or just conclude) that this is a pattern of operation I believe is highly presumptuous and incorrect.

GM sales tactics are based on exaggerations on rental income, fast talking with bunches of circles and numbers, and many handoffs to other people for pressure. I have been through many of these presentations and have never seen any such targeting and at my age, I would have been targeted.

Mike


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## Tropical lady (Oct 2, 2010)

*Yikes...surveys, continued posts, what is left?*

Yes, Denise, my husband and I bought directly from the developer.  Is everyone sitting down?  We did ALL our upgrades with the developer.  Not until before the last 2 upgrades did we know about resales, tug, Luxxe Owners group, and Mayan Palace Owners Group.  All these sites provided valuable info which resulted in 2 upgrade purchases that included advantages we probably would not have through resale.  
This experience, first out of the US, was far better than the sleazy presentations we had gone through over the years.  Previously we went with friends, certainly not for the crummy gifts, but for a good laugh after and with some passive interest.  We have just returned from Florida and went to 2 presentations where my high expectations for professionalism from 2 well known companies were not met.  I could have posted here about the treatment....on and on....  I would not as there was no scam, just crummy sales tactics.  No interest in buying....these I would do resale!
Sorry Tombo, but it does not look like the original poster is as interested as we thought.  Too bad your apology won't be seen.  BTW, IF I am proven wrong, I WILL be glad to do my OWN apology.  However, I do congratulate the poster with generating this many posts....maybe close to a record?.....or bashing any company of today's choice is a sport!
I continue to remain skeptical of this post.


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## Tropical lady (Oct 2, 2010)

*Sympathy, apologies....oh my!!*

Tombo,
If this were an actual proven scam case, we would all be sympathetic.  OP was reminded in several threads that we could not understand the time frame, story line, and asked for clarification.  Initially we gave suggestions based upon assumptions.  OP has not even been back to read our posts or give more info.  Interested.....?.......doubt it.
I envision a person creating this post for ? agenda and sitting back as we twist in the wind, disagreeing with each other, and keeping this sport of "bashing the t's of the day" going.
Now, even better, we get the question of a "still feeling warm and fuzzy" survey as a spin off of this thread.  I hope that we answer that ridiculous survey just as asked and don't get pulled into sales tactics which I am sure was the real intention.  I remain warm and fuzzy for luxury....yes!!
Thank you for feeling it was necessary to apologize for me when I became skeptical.  I can do my own.  Now the OP is really getting a good laugh.


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## DeniseM (Oct 2, 2010)

If I was the OP, I don't think I would come back either.  She didn't exactly get a warm reception.

I find it interesting that the people who are the most defensive about this resort's sales practices, bought from the developer themselves.  Hard to understand.  

In case anyone is wondering, there is nothing about this person's IPS or registration that suggests they are anything except what they represent themselves to be - a consumer.  They are not posting from Mexico, as a competitor might be.  



> Hello, I am writing this with my daughter.


It also appears that she is posting from her daughter's computer and using her daughter's email address, which probably indicates, that she doesn't have internet access herself.  Which may explain why she hasn't been back.


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## Tropical lady (Oct 2, 2010)

*there is more......sigh*

I am taken back by your conclusion that there was defense of the sales tactics.  I just now ran down this giant list of posts to refresh my memory and I did not see ANY statement that condoned untruthful sales presentations.  I did see acknowledgement of this.
I did see where posters pointed out 1. ALL t/s companies engage in deceit and untruths to make a sale,  2. Mexico and/or Grupo Mayan does NOT have the market on scams, 3. Grupo Mayan does correct issues demonstrated by posters removing comments.....anyone else?,  4.  Grupo Mayan does have programs benefiting owners re MF's, Senior Certs, complimentary transportation from airport, and many others, 5. there seemed to be a groundswell of bashing based on what?.
In all of MY statements I said that this whole mindset is not fair to ANY company if not proven.  I refer to the great statement of dive-bomb and leaving poop.....wish I had thought of that.  I also like the "I've been screwed thread" suggestion.  Lots of creative people here.
In an effort to be helpful, we need to keep things general unless there has been a proven issue for ANY company.  It simply is not fair to rake ANY (lest I show favoritism) company over the coals unless we know it to be fact.  
Sorry, but I remain wary of this thread as this APPEARS to have been great entertainment for someone.
I don't see why you would conclude that just those who bought from the developer were the defensive ones. Hard to understand!!!  I did not see defense, just setting the records straight for those caught up in this topic. However, most here recognize what is FACT, fairness, and will stand up to unjust accusations!!


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## mikenk (Oct 2, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> If I was the OP, I don't think I would come back either.  She didn't exactly get a warm reception.
> 
> I find it interesting that the people who are the most defensive about this resort's sales practices, bought from the developer themselves.  Hard to understand.



On your first point, her post was very confusing. I read it three times to see if I could help; I think that is the same for the other GM owners. the initial questions were to try to understand; all of us have enough knowledge and GM contacts to help. We really never got any attempt at a rational story. Of course, then the hordes of bashers took over the thread and it went downhill from there. I believe that there is far more to this story than we understand. 

On your second point, maybe it is because we understand that there is far more to a resort and its overall practices than just it's contracted sales force, who I believe is no more deceptive than others, just more aggressive. 
Maybe it is because we collectively all appreciate our great vacations consistently at all the resorts. Maybe it is because we also travel with friends to their timeshares and realize the difference in what we have from what they have. Maybe because we appreciate the flexibility of upgrading to our specific vacation needs. Maybe, we just like the overall experience.

One thing for sure, I think we are all tired of people who know nothing of the Grupo mayan system assuming they know all and preaching their views as fact, or taking a condescending attitude and apologizing for us with admonishment that we dare ask questions. It's like the whole industry is lily white except for the evil Grand Mayan system. 

JMHO,
Mike


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## DeniseM (Oct 2, 2010)

Tropical lady said:


> I did not see defense, just setting the records straight for those caught up in this topic. However, most here recognize what is FACT, fairness, and will stand up to unjust accusations!!



That's exactly my point - we don't know what the facts are, so it's unfair to side with Grupo against this poster.  Especially when Grupo is well-known for their fraudulent sales practices.  

As I posted above, every indication is that she is just a confused and upset senior citizen.  I checked her out and there is nothing to indicate that she is anything else.

TUG is here for consumers - but it doesn't seem that way in this thread.


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## mikenk (Oct 3, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> TUG is here for consumers - but it doesn't seem that way in this thread.



I agree totally about it being for consumers to learn and discuss issues, but it should be about discussing issues that affect all consumers. This one consumer is making a serious accusation that goes well beyond the typical time share exaggerations (of which GM certainly fits - as do many others). Is it fair to all consumers to just assume that this accusation is correct - or should it be discussed openly and challenged a bit for validity. 

Realistically, there are only a few of us on this thread that can actually help the OP as we all have contacts that we work with in the Contracts department. We have been given no information to actually work with. I know for a fact that Groupo Vidanta listens and responds to issues, and we on the GM focused forums complain a lot, but with facts not innuendo. However, at this point, I would feel silly responding to them based on this thread. Now, if a bunch more people would chime in here that they had experienced the same thing, that would be a different story.

On a related but side note, I also don't think it is fair to consumers for people who have no interest in Mexico timeshares, to flock over frequently to highjack Mexico forums just to flame the country for its drug problems, for it's timeshare policies, and to trash the Grand Mayan resorts of which they really know very little about. 

TUG is a great source for information but I do also think it has its problems and often confuses consumers with unsubstantiated biases and personal agendas.

Mike


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## Zac495 (Oct 3, 2010)

I agree with Denise. OP probably disappeared after being bashed, or just didn't come back yet. Who knows. I don't think she was treated well from the start. I also don't believe she came to TUG to make GM look bad - her title was her opinion.

I do agree it was hard to read and I'm not clear what all of the issues were/are. If she came back, maybe we could help, though probably not if she bought it years ago. 

I myself think GM would go after anyone at any age - I stupidly went on one of their t/s presentations during a full day rainstorm while I was there- lies upon lies upon THREATS! They threatened that RCI would be notified of my new knowledge that Hilton doesn't deserve good trades (they wrote it down) and that now my trades would be worse. :hysterical: Of course my husband and I knew this to be a lie, but it was a pretty big one and they did it with a straight face.

I can just imagine what they do to seniors - and I'm not talking about our savvy seniors here on TUG. Seniors are victims all the time and that makes me crazy.


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## ondeadlin (Oct 3, 2010)

I think the response to this poster was very uncharacteristic of TUG, and perhaps stems at least in part from people who love timesharing in Mexico feeling a bit defensive lately because of all the bad press that country is receiving.

If the original poster is still reading the thread, I hope she takes some of the good advice offered here and ignores the criticisms.

As for the suggestion that this particular timeshare brand or Mexico are getting a bad rap ... well ... in both cases I think those parties are largely responsible for the problems they face.


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## tombo (Oct 3, 2010)

mikenk said:


> Tombo,
> 
> You realize that you are making a big assumption that it is really all true and is a pattern of operation. Why those of us that understand the GM system see red flags here is this is not anything that has ever been raised before; many of us are on GM focused forums; lying as to when the senior discount is available has never been suggested. Is it possible that it was done by a sales person, sure. However, to suggest (or just conclude) that this is a pattern of operation I believe is highly presumptuous and incorrect.
> 
> ...




 I am much more likely to think a positive post on TUG about honest forthright timeshare sales people/developers are shill posts than to think a negative post about a developer detailing the lies told to them on a timeshare sales tour is a fake! I don't think I have ever been on a timeshare presentation anywhere in any country presented by any developer where I was not lied to at some point in the course of them trying to make a sale. Some are small lies like promising me that I can easily reserve any week I want each year including 4th of July new years, promising that I can without problem each and every year rent my week(s) for profit (Grupo was big on this one), that it would save me money in 5 years or less, etc. Some tell big lies like it will trade for anywhere in the world with II/RCI, you will be able to sell if for more money than you paid in the future because these weeks increase in value every year, this is the last day to get this price because tomorrow the price will go up $1000's, if you don't buy it now you will never get this deal again, etc, etc, etc. As I have learned more through the years on TUG and on my own it is amazing the number of blatant lies I was routinelly told everytime I took a sales tour.

So if I am given a choice between believing that the original poster is elderly and was lied to in when she was sold a timeshare, or to beleive that such a thing never happened and is instead a smear against the wonderfully honest timeshare developer GRUPO, why would I ever doubt the OP?  Developers lie as part of their daily sales tactics, so it would be much harder for me to believe that she made the whole thing up for no reason than it is for me to believe that is is a true post from another of the many 1000's who purchased timeshares based on lies.

Because GRUPO is a Mexico developer many here defend them blindly and feel anything negative posted about Mexico or a Mexico resort is unacceptable. Many negative things posted here about Mexico and Mexican resorts are facts, not Mexico bashing. To believe Mexico is Utopia where there is no crime and where all developers like GRUPO are honest and never lie to make a sale is either being dishonest with yourself or being extremelly naive.

What did the OP have to gain from making a fake post? I see nothing incongruent in her posts and the facts she presents. The OP has not come back and posted here anymore, and why would she? She posted a couple of times and was accused of being stupid for signing things she didn't read, for not taking responsibility for her actions, and often accused of being a fake poster. 

The second response to the OP's original post asking for advice was:


Tropical lady said:


> I certainly do not want to offend anyone, but I have to say that I am suspicious of this story after reviewing the content and the statements made.  If this is legit, I apologize, contact the company and see if it can be worked out before you go through a smear campaign.


Wasn't that a nice hello. I think you are a liar, but if you happen not to be a liar all you need to do is contact the company that sold you 2 weeks using lies so that you can get it straightened out before you begin a smear campaign against the wonderful, honest, benevolent Grupo Mayan.

Well this thread IMO quickly turned into bashing of the elderly OP and was unseemly. I hope that many here will start reading this thread and all posts from the beginning to reread what was said to and about the OP. I think anyone who is honest with themselves would admit that they too would have quit posting here if they themselves were the OP and treated in such a manner.


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## MuranoJo (Oct 3, 2010)

tombo said:


> Well this thread IMO quickly turned into bashing of the elderly OP and was unseemly.



No, this thread quickly turned into bashing of Grupo and MX.  I've followed this thread and only saw one or two instances of skepticism (I wouldn't call it bashing) of the original post.  Tug is riff with skepticism.

Several Grupo owners came forward to ask for clarification of the original post, and really wanted to help because of product knowledge, as well as knowledge of typical sales tactics and possible resolutions.  

This is what I refer to as 'Dive-bombing and leaving poop.'  There is simply no way to help the OP when what he/she says (if you can understand it) is either something that might have happened years ago, or is a recent purchase transaction.  It makes a difference on what type of advice you would offer. 

Meanwhile, those who know little or nothing about the GM contracts or even t/s in MX are quick to jump in and escalate the poop.


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## MuranoJo (Oct 3, 2010)

tombo said:


> To believe Mexico is Utopia where there is no crime and where all developers like GRUPO are honest and never lie to make a sale is either being dishonest with yourself or being extremelly naive.



I must have missed this.  Can you please point me to where a GM owner posted this?


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## ondeadlin (Oct 3, 2010)

muranojo said:


> This is what I refer to as 'Dive-bombing and leaving poop.'



This is, quite simply, not nice. It's inappropriate, not what TUG is about, and - yes - it was and is bashing of the original poster. You're an intelligent poster and can clearly express yourself in better ways. When you don't choose to do that, yes, you're bashing the poster and making her feel unwelcome here.


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## DeniseM (Oct 4, 2010)

Let's take a step back from this:  

1) An elderly lady with no internet access or experience gets an unexpected bill from Grupo Mayan.  She is upset and confused.

2)  She goes to her daughter's house and talks to her about it.

3)  Daughter googles Grupo Mayan, and comes up with TUG, and registers under her own email address, and helps mom write 3 posts.

4)  Then mom goes home - where she has no internet access and probably doesn't give it a 2nd thought, since the internet is not part of her daily life.

Everything we know substantiates that chain of events.

It is not logical to accuse the poster of having a hidden agenda, just because you don't like her post, and she hasn't been back.


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## MuranoJo (Oct 4, 2010)

ondeadlin:  I appreciate the reminder that things can be translated differently.  I will choose my words more carefully in the future.  

Just so you know, those words were NOT intended to bash the OP.  They were intended as a general observation that anyone can say anything negative on the net, and it's very hard to clean it up after that point.

This thread is the perfect example.  I personally have never said or alluded the OP is a fake; we just don't have enough information to determine what happened, how long ago, and what--if anything--we can do to help him/her.

However, after having read the OP post several times,  I can see where the OP may actually be children who have posted this, after discovering what Mom got into some years ago.  And now they are trying to help her (or them) to get out from under some sort of upcoming estate arrangement.  See...we just don't know about her personal situation, nor what the original contact was or wasn't.


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## mikenk (Oct 4, 2010)

This has to go down as a TUG record with the most agendas interweaved into a single thread.

1: there is the agenda of the OP (et al) - that we still don't really understand

2: then there are those who were initially probing to understand and maybe help

3: then there are those who just love to bash GM on the general principle as it being a fundamentally evil empire. This even launched a thread of it's own.

4: then there are those who rise to the defense of the GM system as having also some good points to counter those who only see evil. The number 2 group added this agenda item to counter Agenda 3 as nothing seemed forthcoming on the number 1 agenda.

5: Then there are those who want us all to play nice and assume all postings should be taken as true so as is to not offend anyone, which fostered a little aside agenda as to whether that is a good assumption for TUG to assume uncorroborated claims are always true.

6: Slowly, the anti Mexico agendas are popping in, which will indeed pull some more in to defend Mexico as a tourist spot.

7: I am sure there are others that I am not astute enough to recognize.

This thread might endure forever

Don't you just love it?
Mike


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## tombo (Oct 4, 2010)

muranojo said:


> I must have missed this.  Can you please point me to where a GM owner posted this?



I said because The Mayans are Mexican resorts and Grupo is a Mexican developer, some get defensive and defend them blindly. Here is an example from your own post:



muranojo said:


> No, this thread quickly turned into bashing of Grupo and MX.
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, those who know little or nothing about the GM contracts or even t/s in MX are quick to jump in and escalate the poop.


Please re-read looking for instances of Mexico bashing that you yourself accuse people who have a problem with a resort or devloper in Mexico of doing.  Also the GRUPO references were discussing lies GRUPO uses to sell weeks. These are facts, not bashing, as many here who are owners admit. In this case the big argument by several GRUPO owners is not whether GRUPO lies to sell weeks, the argument many have is that they have not heard of this lie being used before.  Do you or any owner really want to defend a developer on the grounds that they do lie to sell weeks, but you don't think they use this particualr lie on the elderly? Does that make them a better organization? It is like saying yes he steals from people, but I have never heard of him stealing from ELDERLY people, so I don't beleive it happened. 

Here is another:



Tropical lady said:


> Yes, we need to identify issues appropriatly, but why would we want to continue to trash the t/s industry that we have bought into and enjoy and want ALL our companies to do well.  It only benefits us !!



A self serving reason to defend Mexico and or Mexican developers is the desire to have a resort where you own at do well. We all know that if the resort/developer/area has great positive PR what you own might command a higher price if one decides to sell and possibly bring more rental income if one decides to rent out owned weeks. Converselly bad pr can lower rental and/or sale  prices. 

What is more important? Helping a senior citizen who was scammed and lied to by a developer that many TUGGERS own at, or defending a crooked timeshare developer for the good of the company and consequently possibly the good of the owners? GRUPO has plenty of lawyers and PR people to put good spin on their crooked actions. The elderly woman only has her family and a few web sites like TUG to help her. In this case the elderly victim was once again victimized when she came to TUG asking for help IMO.


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## Tropical lady (Oct 4, 2010)

*Perspective....*

I think we can all agree that we disagree!  This is good because it brings perspective to an ongoing issue that will continue in spite of all our posts. Thanks Denise for your PM.  What is frustrating is to have intent misinterpreted as blind defense and personal.  Of course I have a vested interest in Grupo Mayan, but I have always stated that I would take this stand for ANY company if I knew the issues and felt the accusations were unfair. 
My perspective.....In earlier threads which I read soon after finding TUG....posters were claiming "scam", but no details.  Right away they were directed to Profeco if they could not rescind.  Soon after, congratulations were given since money was returned and the original posts removed.  Now the immediate suggestion is to plaster every site with a story and the company will settle to avoid bad pr.  How can we suggest that if we don't know the story?  I'm just saying we need to be responsible.  A true issue, sure....pull out the stops and go for that company!
I am glad to see the spin off survey is more positive.
I reviewed the post which started all this.  I DO wish that the OP would come back with details.  While I questioned the story and do stand by my feeling about all this, plenty of posters disagreed with me and supported the OP.  There is a lot of info for her or the family to use her t/s.....from NJ Cancun is a less expensive flight than Acapulco, no MF to use the week, split the 2 bdrm for 2 weeks, maybe (a guess) it will be $2800-$3200 to settle this, exchange, etc.  I have a feeling that also her family is not happy with this purchase and she is feeling the pressure.  
If I were her, I would come back on principle to prove this poster (me) wrong.


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## DeniseM (Oct 4, 2010)

Anyone who would like to follow up on this, or offer more assistance, can click on the poster's blue user name and send her daughter an email. - Thanks!


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## tombo (Oct 4, 2010)

Tropical lady said:


> I reviewed the post which started all this.  I DO wish that the OP would come back with details.  While I questioned the story and do stand by my feeling about all this, plenty of posters disagreed with me and supported the OP.
> If I were her, I would come back on principle to prove this poster (me) wrong.



Perhaps now that the OP only accepts PM's you can change your mind. What possible reason would there be to attempt to smear GRUPO using PM's that no one but them and the sender can read? 

Also why would one who was treated so rudelly feel the need to prove to you that they are telling the truth? By now everyone but you already believes them to be who they say they are. If anyone here is morally obligated to do anything on principle, I would say it would be that some here should apologize to the OP for treating them so badly for no reason. JMHO.


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## aliikai2 (Oct 4, 2010)

*Can you please point out where the OP was treated rudely?*

Or 





> so badly for no reason


 

You seem to be on a campaign of your own in this thread, and I for one am having a hard time in understanding what you are trying to accomplish.
The OP came here and posted , we ( myself and others that own Gm/MP ) suggestions, and somehow we have been demonized for asking the OP questions and offering advice 

Greg


tombo said:


> Perhaps now that the OP only accepts PM's you can change your mind. What possible reason would there be to attempt to smear GRUPO using PM's that no one but them and the sender can read?
> 
> Also why would one who was treated so rudelly feel the need to prove to you that they are telling the truth? By now everyone but you already believes them to be who they say they are. If anyone here is morally obligated to do anything on principle, I would say it would be that some here should apologize to the OP for treating them so badly for no reason. JMHO.


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## ondeadlin (Oct 4, 2010)

It's certainly not a campaign of his own. The OP was treated badly, particularly in comparison to how new posters who usually are treated on TUG. Anyone who doesn't have a personal attachment to the Mexican timeshare market and/or this company would see that very clearly.


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## aliikai2 (Oct 4, 2010)

*I will ask you the same question*

Please show me the posts where the OP was treated badly or bashed? 

She/they were asked some questions, they were given advice by several long time tuggers, everything from walk away to learn how to use, where is this un-tug like? 

I have attachments to lots resorts, I love most, dislike some, hate others, but I still can't see where anyone treated the OP badly 


Greg



ondeadlin said:


> It's certainly not a campaign of his own. The OP was treated badly, particularly in comparison to how new posters who usually are treated on TUG. Anyone who doesn't have a personal attachment to the Mexican timeshare market and/or this company would see that very clearly.


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## ondeadlin (Oct 4, 2010)

A senior citizen was basically accused of lying and pooping on the message board. If you can't recognize that as being treated badly, well ... we're coming from different places then. It's completely out of character for how people are usually treated on TUG, particularly unsophisticated newcomers.


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## aliikai2 (Oct 4, 2010)

*You and I will never see things the same, filters, life , etc*

The dive bomb and poop quote was in reference to any swoop in and lay an egg like _*Scammed *_that will be in existence in the internet for ever.  

No one called her a liar, some asked her to clarify some issues. 

As Denise pointed out she hasn't been back since the 1st day. 

This individual bought something over 5 years ago, and is trying to find a way out, or possibly her children are looking to get out, either way, it is 5 years old.

 I have given away several timeshares that I have paid for, sold some others at 10% of what we paid, in the real world, that is just the way things go, and using the word scammed, didn't enter into any of my poor decisions, they were my mistakes, and my *responsibility*, a word that seems to have lost all meaning in life today. 

Heck I even bought a Chevy Vega, a Sony Beta-max, a 4 track tape recorder, etc 

Greg



ondeadlin said:


> A senior citizen was basically accused of lying and pooping on the message board. If you can't recognize that as being treated badly, well ... we're coming from different places then. It's completely out of character for how people are usually treated on TUG, particularly unsophisticated newcomers.


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## ondeadlin (Oct 4, 2010)

I completely agree that we'll never see things the same way. It's extremely puzzling to me, for example, how anyone can defend a company that is notorious for a business model that relies on scamming - yes, scamming - unsuspecting tourists.

Much less against a little old lady who basically is just frustrated. Your position and criticisms are almost mind-boggling in their insensitivity and fundamental lack of understanding of how an elderly, less sophisticated party would likely feel scammed if the facts were as she described him.

You appear more upset about the use of the word scammed than the possibility the woman actually was scammed or the reality that people are scammed every day by this resort.


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## aliikai2 (Oct 4, 2010)

*lol, I am not defending any company*



ondeadlin said:


> I completely agree that we'll never see things the same way. It's extremely puzzling to me, for example, how anyone can defend a company that is notorious for a business model that relies on scamming - yes, scamming - unsuspecting tourists.


By it's very nature, retail timeshare sales are done to unsuspecting tourists, and if they didn't buy there would be no resorts, so if that is scamming in Mexico by the Grupo Mayan, then it is also scamming by the Westin's, Marriott's, Disney's, Hilton's, Royal's,the Worldmarks, Wyndhams, etc, they all rely on tourists to buy their overpriced product.


> Much less against a little old lady who basically is just frustrated. Your position and criticisms are almost mind-boggling in their insensitivity and fundamental lack of understanding of how an elderly, less sophisticated party would likely feel scammed if the facts were as she described him.


Mind boggling, is correct, how you can defend someone that made a purchase 5 years ago, and now screams foul?? It is interesting that you perceive the OP as some frail elderly lady that is doty, and unable to think for herself, I know lots of people in their 80's and 90's that are all in control of their lives, so do I feel pity for the OP, not a bit, she was a couple of years older than I am, and if I made a mistake, it is my mistake, I wasn't scammed. 


> You appear more upset about the use of the word scammed than the possibility the woman actually was scammed or the reality that people are scammed every day by this resort.



Every timeshare sales company takes advantage of Greed, they offer someone $100 or a free trip on a boat, a 10% discount off their bill, or whatever and with that bribe the buy the time to try to sell an overpriced sliver of time at a resort.

 In the fast sales game this is called selling the sizzle.

So, everyone that ever bought a retail timeshare according to your definition
has been scammed. :annoyed: 

It all goes back to the basic premise, are we responsible for our actions? Or should we all cry foul and scam when we make a mistake. 

I for one have made my share of mistakes, and I paid for them, I can't place the blame on that terrible timeshare ( real estate, car, tv, satellite, phone, internet, infomercial)  salesperson for doing their job, which is by the way to take your money and give you an overpriced product.

I can't feel sorry for an adult that isn't mentally impaired when they make a poor decision, period. 

It have told all my adult children and grandchildren that your mistakes are yours. Have I helped my family when they have made an expensive mistake, of course that is what family is for, to help and support their own.

Greg


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## ondeadlin (Oct 4, 2010)

If you really think what Grand Mayan does is comparable to what Disney does, that says everything anyone reading this thread needs to know. Thanks for making that clear.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 4, 2010)

*You Typed A Mouthful.*




aliikai2 said:


> So, everyone that ever bought a retail timeshare according to your definition has been scammed.


That's about the size of it. 

Nothing that the timeshare companies sell at full freight is worth the money, period. 

The entire timeshare company biz. model depends on razzle-dazzle & ballyhoo, fast-talking & arm twisting prospective customers who get no opportunity to do any comparison shopping or fact finding. 

Shux upon'm -- the full freight timeshare companies, I mean. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## aliikai2 (Oct 4, 2010)

*Your welcome*



ondeadlin said:


> If you really think what Grand Mayan does is comparable to what Disney does, that says everything anyone reading this thread needs to know. Thanks for making that clear.



Can you point out how they differ? 
The GM sells a product, 
Disney sells a product,
 they both charge more than the product is worth resale, 
the Mouse then charges you an entrance fee to use a part of their product,  the GM allows you to use all the products for free.  
Disney until just now only had resorts in one basic location, the GM has 6 destinations. 

Does the GM employ high pressure sales tactics, yes. Does Disney, I don't know, but they sell an over priced product as does Worldmark. 

WM/Wyndham sells WM points for $1.85 when they can be bought resale for .25 . 

The 2 WM/ Wyndham tours I have taken were as filled with falsehoods and uncorrected misconceptions as any I have ever taken. Are they all Scammers??:ignore: 


Greg


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## aliikai2 (Oct 4, 2010)

*You and I agree,Alan*

No timeshare purchased at retail is worth what was paid , and if the GM is a scammer, then all the developers are scammers, so quit bestowing the title on just the Grupo Mayan and place the blame on the entire industry. :whoopie: 

Greg



AwayWeGo said:


> That's about the size of it.
> 
> Nothing that the timeshare companies sell at full freight is worth the money, period.
> 
> ...


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## ondeadlin (Oct 4, 2010)

Greg, with every post it just becomes more and more clear that you're dedicated to defending this particular group of resorts regardless of the facts.

Anyone who has been a member of TUG for a few years or even does a cursory search knows that your argument is ridiculous. There are multiple complaints on this board about how Grand Mayan scams its customers and the despicable tactics they use - there is no similar history of complaints about Disney or Worldmark or Marriott. Complaints about salespeople lying? Sure. If that was all we were talking about, we'd be having a different discussion.

Let me know the next time someone complains about a Disney/WM/Marriott salesperson keeping them 10 hours without food or water.

Let me know the next time a Google search for Disney/WM/Marriott complaints turns up the volume and depth of complaints that one does for Grand Mayan or Grupo Mayan on sites such as complaints.com, pissedconsumer.com, ripoffreport.com, etc.

Let me know when Disney/WM/Marriot is given an* F rating *by the Better Business Bureau:



> BBB Rating
> 
> Based on BBB files, this business has a BBB Rating of F on a scale from A+ to F.
> 
> ...



http://www.bbb.org/dallas/business-...marina-vallarta-sade-cv-in-dallas-tx-90041342

Your attempt to equate Grupo Mayan / Grand Mayan with Disney/WM/Marriott-type companies is easily demolished with facts.

The loyalty you show such a disreputable company is both sad and puzzling, and should be rebutted so that other newcomers to TUG know to steer as far away as possible from this company.


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## mikenk (Oct 5, 2010)

In my few years around the time share business and being an owner in the Grupo Mayan system, here are some observations.

- In general, the timeshare industry is severely flawed. It is based on deceit and lies everywhere to keep it alive. Once in, you really can't get out and you are leaving to your family obligations, not benefits. In addition, most timeshare properties degrade much faster in quality than well managed resorts.

- The Grand Mayan sales practices, in my observations, having been to theirs' and others, are based on the same level of deceits and lies - but with a much more aggressive sales force and a strong system of getting lots of people in the pipeline. In all of our opinions, there is no condoning these types of practices at GM or anywhere.

- As an owner, the experience is quite different. The resorts are excellent with well managed staff and member service folks that are great to work with. Are their things to be improved? Absolutely, and I feel owners are being listened to - although sometimes too slowly on certain issues. 

- The GM system is also innovative and creative in exploring new ways to create lasting vacation values for families and to allow people to customize their vacation packages - which is really all that you are buying in any timeshare offering. Things like true luxury units, no MF unless you use, free golf, the Senior discount policy, are being introduced that I like as an owner. I believe that the industry and TUG ought to be looking at these new ideas - but that is not the mindset to do so; the mindset is just to see the bad.

 - I believe that people generally forget what they paid for a great product, and will always remember what they paid for a bad one. IMO, Grand mayan ownership is a great product; unfortunately, they have chosen a sales policy that makes them the primary target of all that is bad in this industry, but in reality is just the tip of the iceberg of timeshare problems.

Realistically, people that own in the GM system probably don't belong in TUG as it is a different product unfortunately bonded together by similar deceitful sales practices. Too many threads end as this one has with complete misunderstanding of intent, motives, and rationale. One thing I have learned over the years is that until you have actually experienced something yourself do you really have the understanding for meaningful discussion. This thread has ceased to have meaningful discussion; can't it just be shut down?

Mike


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## tombo (Oct 5, 2010)

mikenk said:


> Too many threads end as this one has with complete misunderstanding of intent, motives, and rationale. One thing I have learned over the years is that until you have actually experienced something yourself do you really have the understanding for meaningful discussion. This thread has ceased to have meaningful discussion; can't it just be shut down?
> 
> Mike




The original intent, motive, and rationale you like the thread to stay on was to discuss how the OP was lied to when she was sold her timeshare, and what if anything she could do to rectify the disastrous situation. She posted a total of one post before the bashing started. In the second response to the OP she was accused of being a fake poster. The OP's second post was to defend herself and try and prove that she was a real poster discussing a real problem. The thread was derailed from then on as the conspiracy theorists started dissecting her post to prove that she was not for real, to say that GRUPO lies but they would never use that lie to the elderly (so the crooks have limits to their lies, really?), talking about how hard her post was was to understand (do we only allow english majors to post on TUG), talking about how it sounded like it was written by multiple people (a TUG rule breaker?), talking about her motives (are some here psychic?), her kid's motives (once again psychic?), etc, etc, etc. Any perceived inconsistency was picked apart and the main focus ignored. Deflect the facts and replace them with subterfuge, accusations, and inuendos. Then after three posts she wouldn't post anymore and some then took that as proof that she came in to trash GRUPO and leave. What actually happened is that she came in and was personally trashed! She is still posting, it is just through private messages thanks to the warm welcome she received here. 



Tropical lady said:


> I certainly do not want to offend anyone, but I have to say that I am suspicious of this story after reviewing the content and the statements made.  If this is legit, I apologize, contact the company and see if it can be worked out before you go through a smear campaign.





Tropical lady said:


> I remain skeptical as to the intent............





Tropical lady said:


> If I were her, I would come back on principle to prove this poster (me) wrong.





Tropical lady said:


> BTW, IF I am proven wrong, I WILL be glad to do my OWN apology.  .


The OP or no one else has to prove who they are on TUG, especially a brand new elderly poster. We have to assume most people are who they say they are here or no discussion is possible. I have in the past on more than one occassion asked if a person defending the resort was an employee, and on one occassion TUG verified the poster guest was posting from the same IP address as the developer had posted from numerous times. The way Tropical Lady and a couple of others became so defensive I have to say I have my doubts that they are actually owners at GM and instead might be employees of GM. It smells to me like GRUPO salesman spreading GRUPO lies here on TUG. If I am wrong I apologize, but until proven wrong.....  I must say after reading the posts I remain especially skeptical about Tropical Lady being who she says she is. I have questions about her intent and I question her real motives for posting here. Tropical Lady is a GUEST with only a few posts all of which are pro GM which is a sure sign of a plant/shill. She casts doubt on the validity of any who post negative GRUPO posts. She always defends GRUPO no matter what is said. She said to have GRUPO do good is good for all (for all, or for all GRUPO salesman?). Her posts raise serious doubts for any with enquiring minds. If I were Tropical I would on principle  prove to me she is not a GRUPO salesman and prove me wrong. For proof that you are who you say you are I will need an e-mail address, a copy of the bill of sale of the GRUPO week(s) you purchased, a photo ID (preferably a passport) with a name that matches the name on the bill of sale exactly, birth certificate, last year's tax return, and at least 3 verifiable personal references. I will gladly apologize if presented with enough facts to prove me wrong, but until then I remain skeptical. If I am proven wrong I will be glad to apolgize, but until proven wrong I smell GRUPO shill........... 

How does it feel when the shoe is on the other foot? No matter what you say I can always come back with my doubts about whether you are an owner or a GRUPO sales plant here to do damage control on TUG. How can you prove that you aren't? Why should you have to prove anything to me? Why should the OP have had to prove anything to you?

This thread unfortunatelly for the OP has already been shut down with regards to her posting questions and receiving courteous, helpful responses. She no longer feels confortable coming here and has resorted to only talking in private messages so she won't receive any more abuse for asking questions and telling her story. This thread was shut down as to it's original purpose by posters who jumped on the OP for starting a thread talking about the crooked sales tactics of a sacred cow. Thanks to those who refuse to allow open discussion of the crooked sales tactics you yourself admit GM does on a routine basis, anyone in the same boat as the OP will never know what advice she received, what she did, or if it worked for her because her interactions on TUG now are only with people helping her through the use of private messages. Any new TUG member or guest will not only not be able to find out if there is any way to resolve their similar situation, they might also be afraid to ask for advice on this forum for fear of being bashed like the OP of this thread was. 

There is more than one way to have a thread shut, and as we have seen in this case, running dissenting posters off will shut the intent of the thread as effectivelly as having TUG shut it altogether.


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## aliikai2 (Oct 5, 2010)

*P E R S O N A L     ... R E S P O N S I B I L I T Y*



> I think the response to this poster was very uncharacteristic of TUG, and perhaps stems at least in part from people who love timesharing in Mexico feeling a bit defensive lately because of all the bad press that country is receiving.
> 
> If the original poster is still reading the thread, I hope she takes some of the good advice offered here and ignores the criticisms.
> 
> As for the suggestion that *this particular timeshare brand or Mexico are getting a bad rap ... well ... in both cases I think those parties are largely responsible for the problems they face.*





Go tell Alice.... Your attempts to spin this are admirable , worthy of any politician, and your bias against Mexico helps clarify your postings. 

 The facts remain, I am attempting in vain to point out that all sales people lie, that every developer sells a product that is overpriced, yet no where do any of these sales practices amount to Fraud or are they  a Scam.  

As adults we make choices, that is our right in a free society, and as adults we need to be *accountable* for our choices and our actions, if we want to be protected from the big bad people, then we need to give up our *rights *and *responsibilities* as adults and allow someone else to make our decisions. 

The terms *respect* and *responsibility* are meaningful in my life, as while we will never agree, I do respect your opinion, even though I think you are in error.

I am going to go out on a limb here, 

Do you go to Mexico for vacations? 

If you answer no , that will certainly clear up your agenda for future readers of this diatribe. 

Just a small query, you will notice that I sign each of my posts with my name, as they are my *responsibility*, is there a reason you don't sign yours?

Greg 



ondeadlin said:


> Greg, with every post it just becomes more and more clear that you're dedicated to defending this particular group of resorts regardless of the facts.
> 
> Anyone who has been a member of TUG for a few years or even does a cursory search knows that your argument is *ridiculous*.
> 
> There are multiple complaints on this board about how Grand Mayan scams its customers and the despicable tactics they use



Yes Tug has become the court of posting the term Scammed when ever a poor soul buyer a retail timeshare , and as the Big Bad Grupo Mayan is located in the dreaded Mexico, well it is just that much easier to villianize them. 

Is the right? Shouldn't these adults take *responsibility* for their decisions?  




> - there is no similar history of complaints about Disney or Worldmark or Marriott. Complaints about salespeople lying? Sure. If that was all we were talking about, we'd be having a different discussion.
> 
> Let me know the next time someone complains about a Disney/WM/Marriott salesperson keeping them 10 hours without food or water.
> 
> ...


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## ondeadlin (Oct 5, 2010)

Greg,

No acknowledgement at all of the facts about Grand Mayan, huh? Why am I not surprised.

It's only now that I realize you run a business renting Mexican timeshares (and others apparently). Your single-minded defense of this company and refusal to acknowledge how it is different now makes a lot more sense to me - if the reputation gets out, it might cost you money. Maybe you should make that agenda a little more clear instead of trying to twist reality and coloring up your posts with silly animated icons.

My name is Jim. I don't see how that changes anything, but if it's important to you, there you go. It's certainly less important information than your own financial stake in promoting Grand Mayan.

I have vacationed once before in Mexico, I would not at the present time, and have made that clear on another thread.

And Mike, while I don't agree with you on a few things, I at least credit you for acknowledging that Grand Mayan has problems that other timeshare companies don't.


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## DeniseM (Oct 5, 2010)

I think we have said all there is to be said on this topic, so I'm closing this thread.


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