# KOR and KORN HOA foreclosure auction - is this even a real thing?



## The Colorado Kid (Sep 25, 2021)

Saw this in a Vistana Owners FaceBook post yesterday - final report from the OP was that Vistana bid high enough to buy all the foreclosures.

Is this even a real thing though?

*Facebook OP:*
I am attending the HOA foreclosure public sale by auction for KOR and KORN in Kahului in just 3 hours from now


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 25, 2021)

I don't know, but it woudn't surprise me.


----------



## controller1 (Sep 25, 2021)

It appears the Facebook post was from a sales manager with Timeshare Resales Hawaii located in Lahaina.


----------



## DavidnRobin (Sep 25, 2021)

They have done it in the past - @Syed (Advantage Vacations) attended.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## The Colorado Kid (Sep 25, 2021)

Is this done in other TS systems/HOA's and is it a viable way to acquire or too much of a legal hassle?


----------



## tschwa2 (Sep 25, 2021)

The developer usually sends an agent and will take anything that is valuable (that they can easily sell at full retail).  I would expect them to go up to 1/4 retail value for those and up to 1/2 retail value for anything that they specifically have a buyer for or have low or zero inventory.


----------



## Gemini3 (Sep 25, 2021)

These happen every week in my county. Notice is published in the local paper in the legal section. Almost always the outstanding owed balance ( loan, HOA dues, legal fees) are close to the contract purchase price and I have never seen a potential good deal. This is how HOA's/lenders/developers can get the asset back when the borrower defaults.


----------



## DavidnRobin (Sep 25, 2021)

For Vistana (Starwood) - the WSJ VGV HOA started the Owner Buy Back program prior to Foreclosure - where Owners could purchase villas that have been turned in - a few times. VSE (SVO) purchased all VOIs the last time.

WKV has also made a similar offer once.
I tried to get Plat+ VOIs, but to no avail.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WahooWah (Sep 25, 2021)

It’s legit.  Vistana files a notice of Lien with BOC four months after HOA dues due date in early January.  If it is not paid for another year or so longer, the HOA will foreclose and put up the interval for auction to recover these fees.


----------



## WahooWah (Sep 25, 2021)

tschwa2 said:


> The developer usually sends an agent and will take anything that is valuable (that they can easily sell at full retail).  I would expect them to go up to 1/4 retail value for those and up to 1/2 retail value for anything that they specifically have a buyer for or have low or zero inventory.



1/2 of retail price would be way more than the typical ROFR price


----------



## tschwa2 (Sep 25, 2021)

WahooWah said:


> 1/2 of retail price would be way more than the typical ROFR price


exactly.  But if Vistana has someone on a list for an ocean front unit and they are currently out and they know they can turn it around for $70,000-80,000+, they aren't going to let it go at the typical ROFR price.


----------



## dioxide45 (Sep 26, 2021)

I know with some foreclosure/tax sales, they bundle up the timeshare weeks in packages of 5-10 or even more and then auction those bundles. Effectively locking out the everyday joe looking to buy a week and making them really only accessible to the developer to buyback.


----------



## WahooWah (Sep 26, 2021)

tschwa2 said:


> exactly.  But if Vistana has someone on a list for an ocean front unit and they are currently out and they know they can turn it around for $70,000-80,000+, they aren't going to let it go at the typical ROFR price.


There is never a need to do that because a week will always be available on ROFR for much less


----------



## rcv82 (Sep 26, 2021)

DavidnRobin said:


> For Vistana (Starwood) - the WSJ VGV HOA started the Owner Buy Back program prior to Foreclosure - where Owners could purchase villas that have been turned in - a few times. VSE (SVO) purchased all VOIs the last time.
> 
> WKV has also made a similar offer once.
> I tried to get Plat+ VOIs, but to no avail.
> ...



I bought a winter Sheraton Mountain Vista 148100 SO unit this way once. They only had a couple winter weeks and on my third try at this I was able to get one. The other seasons were easy. I think I got my week the last time they did this—seemed to stop when Flex started. Even though it is a voluntary resort, units bought this way were enrolled in the network just like a mandatory property. ( No hotel points, no credit towards elite status.)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Sicnarf (Jan 5, 2022)

Received the following information from the presentation I just attended at Westin Riverfront:
1. Starting June 1st, Vistana owners will be able convert their developer bought or authorized VOIs to MVCI destination points allowing them to book any MVCI owned properties.
2. Vistana owners can continue using their unconverted weeks, homeoptions, or staroptions same as today.
3.  Vistana elite owners will be automatically granted MVCI elite levels without any fee as follows: 5*->Chairman, 4*->Presidential, 3*->Executive
4. Vistana will only sell MVCI destination points going forward.
5. Unauthorized or resale Vistana units can be authorized or grandfathered by buying certain number of destination points like today.
I think this is an excellent news as Vistana owners need not shell out any $ to access MVCI properties.  MVCI owners had to pay enrollment fees to join destination club when it was rolled out.


----------



## Ken555 (Jan 5, 2022)

Do you have this in writing?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Sicnarf (Jan 5, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Do you have this in writing?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It was on the slides the sales person presented which supposedly came from MVCI management.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 5, 2022)

We have seen this thread about two dozen times already. Do we need to keep starting new ones?


----------



## CPNY (Jan 5, 2022)

Sicnarf said:


> It was on the slides the sales person presented which supposedly came from MVCI management.


I can make slides on my iPad and tell you they came from papa smurf. Although, it sounds reasonable and I wouldn’t be surprised if it works out that way


----------



## Ken555 (Jan 5, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I can make slides on my iPad and tell you they came from papa smurf. Although, it sounds reasonable and I wouldn’t be surprised if it works out that way



Hey, I’d believe Papa Smurf before I’d believe a timeshare sales weasel!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Sicnarf (Jan 5, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> We have seen this thread about two dozen times already. Do we need to keep starting new ones?


I didn't see any posting with specifics re June date or conversion fees.


----------



## Sicnarf (Jan 5, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Hey, I’d believe Papa Smurf before I’d believe a timeshare sales weasel!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


This is the first time it is presented as an internal MVCI announcement versus a salesperson's speculation.


----------



## Ken555 (Jan 5, 2022)

Sicnarf said:


> This is the first time it is presented as an internal MVCI announcement versus a salesperson's speculation.



We all know this is coming… we just don’t know the exact setup. What you saw is likely correct, but I won’t believe anything is definite until I see it on their web site, etc - and not in a sales meeting.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 5, 2022)

I have learned that these slides and presentations are generally prepared by individual sales reps to fit their own personal presentation style. I wouldn't take them as official word on anything. Someone else heard from a rep the other day that they aren't allowed to share anything and don't really know anything. So someone is lying, we just don't know which one.

We had a sales rep at SVR show us information he received from a training seminar he attended. It was on slides too. His interpretation of it was pretty bad and he was flat out wrong on some of it. His interpretation of Marriott Vacations being involved in third party management was that there would be a third party to come in and manage the weeks ownership after this new program was launched. Us old weeks owners would no longer have our weeks managed by Vistana or Marriott. What a goof. Third party management is is VAC being a hotel management company for Aqua-Aston. Just goes to show you can't rely 100% on a salesperson to know what they are talking about.

I do find it doubtful that there won't be an enrollment fee of some kind for at least Vistana week owners. Marriott didn't pay billions of dollars for a company to not leverage the ownership base to upsell the product.


----------



## CPNY (Jan 5, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> We have seen this thread about two dozen times already. Do we need to keep starting new ones?


Another new one 7 minutes ago….. same post, new thread.


----------



## emeryjre (Jan 5, 2022)

Another day, another “definite” merger announcement from a Marriott Timeshare Salesperson.  This offer will not be here tomorrow!


----------



## Sicnarf (Jan 6, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I have learned that these slides and presentations are generally prepared by individual sales reps to fit their own personal presentation style. I wouldn't take them as official word on anything. Someone else heard from a rep the other day that they aren't allowed to share anything and don't really know anything. So someone is lying, we just don't know which one.
> 
> We had a sales rep at SVR show us information he received from a training seminar he attended. It was on slides too. His interpretation of it was pretty bad and he was flat out wrong on some of it. His interpretation of Marriott Vacations being involved in third party management was that there would be a third party to come in and manage the weeks ownership after this new program was launched. Us old weeks owners would no longer have our weeks managed by Vistana or Marriott. What a goof. Third party management is is VAC being a hotel management company for Aqua-Aston. Just goes to show you can't rely 100% on a salesperson to know what they are talking about.
> 
> I do find it doubtful that there won't be an enrollment fee of some kind for at least Vistana week owners. Marriott didn't pay billions of dollars for a company to not leverage the ownership base to upsell the product.


----------



## dougp26364 (Jan 6, 2022)

Once there’s an official announcement, including owner notification via e-mail, posted on the official website or snail mail announcement, will it be believable. Anything else is pure speculation by sales. Nothing is official until it’s official, and it’s only official when all owners have access to the information instead of owners that sit at the round table.

The very best thing an owner can do is only believe what’s in writing, not the slide show side show. If Vistana/MVC wanted this information disseminated amongst the owner base, there would be an OFFICIAL media release, not a sales staff only release. The sales staff will get maybe one or two week notice of the official changes, and even then will be told to keep their mouths shut until the official release.

Its only official when it’s in writing, and it’s not in writing yet.


----------



## The Colorado Kid (Jan 6, 2022)

Sicnarf said:


> Received the following information from the presentation I just attended at Westin Riverfront:
> 1. Starting June 1st, Vistana owners will be able convert their developer bought or authorized VOIs to MVCI destination points allowing them to book any MVCI owned properties.
> 2. Vistana owners can continue using their unconverted weeks, homeoptions, or staroptions same as today.
> 3.  Vistana elite owners will be automatically granted MVCI elite levels without any fee as follows: 5*->Chairman, 4*->Presidential, 3*->Executive
> ...


Curious - what is an "unauthorized" unit?


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 6, 2022)

The Colorado Kid said:


> Curious - what is an "unauthorized" unit?


Those would be resale voluntary ownerships. One can retro them in to make them authorized.


----------



## rcv82 (Jan 6, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Those would be resale voluntary ownerships. One can retro them in to make them authorized.



On this one there is a good chance unauthorized also includes mandatory resales if not requailified. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CPNY (Jan 6, 2022)

rcv82 said:


> On this one there is a good chance unauthorized also includes mandatory resales if not requailified.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’d say any voluntary and mandatory resale not been retroactively brought back into the program via an additional purchase. The way to see who is eligible is if the unit has the ability to be converted into bonvoy points.


----------



## jabberwocky (Jan 6, 2022)

rcv82 said:


> On this one there is a good chance unauthorized also includes mandatory resales if not requailified.


Yes. Our WKORVN week has not been retroed and is referred to as unauthorized by sales when we attend a presentation.


----------



## kozykritter (Jan 6, 2022)

dougp26364 said:


> Sales staff will get maybe one or two week notice of the official changes, and even then will be told to keep their mouths shut until the official release.


I'm not sure they tell the sales staff in advance of changes or announcements. Back when I sold Starwood Vacation ownership, we would never find out anything until the day it happened and many times we heard it from owners who got an email before the corporate office told us anything! The assumption among staff was that Starwood was concerned that some salespeople might leak the information to certain customers to an take unfair sales advantage, so they waited until the day of to tell us.


----------



## Ken555 (Jan 6, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> I'm not sure they tell the sales staff in advance of changes or announcements. Back when I sold Starwood Vacation ownership, we would never find out anything until the day it happened and many times we heard it from owners who got an email before the corporate office told us anything! The assumption among staff was that Starwood was concerned that some salespeople might leak the information to certain customers to an take unfair sales advantage, so they waited until the day of to tell us.



Thank you.

Once again, unless it’s on the website and official anything heard in a sales meeting is unreliable.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime (Jan 6, 2022)

Sicnarf said:


> Received the following information from the presentation I just attended at Westin Riverfront:
> 1. Starting June 1st, Vistana owners will be able convert their developer bought or authorized VOIs to MVCI destination points allowing them to book any MVCI owned properties.
> 2. Vistana owners can continue using their unconverted weeks, homeoptions, or staroptions same as today.
> 3.  Vistana elite owners will be automatically granted MVCI elite levels without any fee as follows: 5*->Chairman, 4*->Presidential, 3*->Executive
> ...



Buying points to authorize or grandfather a resale week will be very expensive. With MVC, it was a nominal fee pre-2010. I heard it was less than $2000.


----------



## dougp26364 (Jan 6, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> I'm not sure they tell the sales staff in advance of changes or announcements. Back when I sold Starwood Vacation ownership, we would never find out anything until the day it happened and many times we heard it from owners who got an email before the corporate office told us anything! The assumption among staff was that Starwood was concerned that some salespeople might leak the information to certain customers to an take unfair sales advantage, so they waited until the day of to tell us.



 I know you’re correct, but it’s easier to say a short time before than to argue with others about the timing.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 6, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Once again, unless it’s on the website and official anything heard in a sales meeting is unreliable.
> 
> ...


But that isn't as much fun for the people that want to pop in here to tell us all the news like we hadn't heard it before!


----------



## emeryjre (Jan 6, 2022)

And you can count on a corporate representative time share salesperson to tell you anything purchased as a resale will not be included in the new program without spending thousands of dollars to bring it back into the system.


----------



## Henry M. (Jan 6, 2022)

Just got a voicemail and email from Vistana. They are switching to overdrive!



> *Just a reminder that the Marriott/Vistana “Final integration” is right around the corner.*
> 
> As I mentioned in previous communication; your account was selected for a special review prior to everything finalizing as we have identified a way to better enhance the ownership before these changes take effect.
> 
> ...



The voicemail said something similar and that the agent was 5* Elite like me and wanted to share everything that is going on.


----------



## cubigbird (Jan 6, 2022)

Continued reasons to stay away from owners updates for a while??


----------



## VacationForever (Jan 6, 2022)

This email came in the past couple of days:
Good afternoon XXXX,

Happy New Year!! We will be welcoming you on XXXX*, *_to* XXXX. *_I’d like to double check and see if you were still going to be making it for your stay. I’d like to share some resort information with you due to Covid-19.

I would also like to help you schedule our _Owner’s Update_ and allow us to go over all the changes and enhancements due to the integration with Marriott there's lots to share! As well as assisting you with any questions you may have about your current ownership. We have some incredible offers available for a limited time that we would like to share with you as well! _Never before discounts available for a limited time.
_


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 6, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> This email came in the past couple of days:
> Good afternoon XXXX,
> 
> Happy New Year!! We will be welcoming you on XXXX*, *_to* XXXX. *_I’d like to double check and see if you were still going to be making it for your stay. I’d like to share some resort information with you due to Covid-19.
> ...


Marketing likes to really spin it up because they get a commission just for you signing up. We have heard this before and when we got to the presentation they said they knew nothing about how the integration would happen.


----------



## VacationForever (Jan 6, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Marketing likes to really spin it up because they get a commission just for you signing up. We have heard this before and when we got to the presentation they said they knew nothing about how the integration would happen.


Yep.  We got a similar email from the pre-arrival concierge at Westin Kierland back in Nov.  The concierge wants the commission, at the expense of wasting the time of the salesperson.  Most of the existing owners won't buy anything else and show up just for the "gifts".


----------



## DanCali (Jan 7, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Buying points to authorize or grandfather a resale week will be very expensive. With MVC, it was a nominal fee pre-2010. I heard it was less than $2000.



At Marriott for pre-2010 weeks it was around $2000 to grandfather in multiple resale weeks. I seem to recall I paid $2000 to grandfather in the 2 pre-2010 weeks we owned but it would have been the same price for 10 resale weeks.  Developer weeks were around $700. And single weeks (or either kind) were slightly less than the price of multiple weeks.

For post-2010 weeks the minimum purchase price to grandfather with Marriott is $30K. And the points product they try to sell you for that is a lousy one in the sense that maintenance fees are extremely high (about as high as rental cost). On the Vistana end you can currently retro 1-2 weeks for a lot less so that might be a gamble to consider but it's just that - a gamble. Nobody really knows yet how they will treat authorized vs unauthorized weeks... It's all rumors.


----------



## emeryjre (Jan 7, 2022)

And how do we know that resale weeks will need to pay an additional fee??

Because a timeshare salesperson said so!!

Think I will wait for the program announcement.


----------



## michael49 (Jan 7, 2022)

DanCali said:


> At Marriott for pre-2010 weeks it was around $2000 to grandfather in multiple resale weeks. I seem to recall I paid $2000 to grandfather in the 2 pre-2010 weeks we owned but it would have been the same price for 10 resale weeks.  Developer weeks were around $700. And single weeks (or either kind) were slightly less than the price of multiple weeks.
> 
> For post-2010 weeks the minimum purchase price to grandfather with Marriott is $30K. And the points product they try to sell you for that is a lousy one in the sense that maintenance fees are extremely high (about as high as rental cost). On the Vistana end you can currently retro 1-2 weeks for a lot less so that might be a gamble to consider but it's just that - a gamble. Nobody really knows yet how they will treat authorized vs unauthorized weeks... It's all rumors.


We paid $695 to enroll our pre-2010 MVC weeks.
In hindsight, it was a great decision, as we now tend to use our points, rather than II.


----------



## DanCali (Jan 7, 2022)

michael49 said:


> We paid $695 to enroll our pre-2010 MVC weeks.
> In hindsight, it was a great decision, as we now tend to use our points, rather than II.




Yes, I think enrolling pre-2010 weeks is a no-brainer, whether it was for $700 or $2000.

Just having the access to the points system is worth it, even if you do not convert weeks to points. Without going too much into the weeds in the Vistana forum, having an enrolled week (or owning points) allows you to transfer points from owner to owner, something unavailable in Vistana with SOs. So even if my weeks have a lousy point allocation, I can rent them out for cash and use that cash to rent points from other owners and then use those points. This allows me to get about 4600 points per week instead of the 3500 I'd get by actually converting it to points - it's a meaningful difference. But you need to be part of the system and pay the club dues to do that.

I suspect MVC will treat WKV Platinum differently than WKORV when it comes to point allocations (even if both are 148,100 SOs). If they do that, I'd much rather capitalize on the high rental value and operate in a similar fashion by renting the week out and renting the points I need rather than convert WKV to DC points. $4000+ in rental value will likely rent a lot more DC points that what MVC will give owners for conversion.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Jan 7, 2022)

This is a deadline that has come and gone over the past few years. While I may have bitten when they initially merged, the market has changed with HGVC's Diamond acquisition. So I am now looking to the HGVC announcement in early Q2 (which I believe will happen BTW) while MVC still spins.

IMHO, if either is more than nominal (eg > $1000) to enroll than I will forgo and be happy to use what we already own. I may be willing to do more with HGVC because we trade on that platform and maint fees are less expensive - we do not trade our WKORVN so enrolling not attractive since we already have Staroptions. Others who trade Staroptions with existing properties may see more value.


----------



## ChiefIlliniwek (Jan 7, 2022)

I went to a presentation at SVV today.  The salesman went on and on about the merger and did the slideshow.  He said that I got “flagged” because I bought a resale at SVV.  The salesman said that the manager was “freaking out” because of the great deal I was being offered.  Apparently the salesman was trying to sell me a retro?  The presentation was confusing, and I wasn’t interested in spending $17000 for whatever he was selling.

The salesman said he was from Marriott corporate and was wearing a Ritz Carlton shirt.  I believe he said that Marriott corporate is taking over Sheraton or something like that.  Whatever.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 7, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> This is a deadline that has come and gone over the past few years. While I may have bitten when they initially merged, the market has changed with HGVC's Diamond acquisition so I am now looking to the HGVC announcement in early Q2 (which I believe will happen BTW) while MVC still spins.  IMHO, if either is more than nominal (eg > $1000) to enroll than I will forgo and be happy to use what we already own. I may be willing to do more with HGVC because we trade in that platform and maint fees are less expensive; we do not trade our WKORVN so enrolling not attractive since we already have staroptions.


Marriott and Vistana have also not really sent any information ton owners about any future plans. We just hear bits and pieces here and there from earnings calls, investor calls or interviews with executives. Hilton so far has sent out multiple emails to their Hilton, Diamond and Embarc owners about the change. I suspect we won't hear a peep from Marriott until they roll this thing out.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Jan 7, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott and Vistana have also not really sent any information ton owners about any future plans. We just hear bits and pieces here and there from earnings calls, investor calls or interviews with executives. Hilton so far has sent out multiple emails to their Hilton, Diamond and Embarc owners about the change. I suspect we won't hear a peep from Marriott until they roll this thing out.



Good points. That's why I am more confident HGVC will execute on (or close) to when they say they will. My sense is that HGVC has a plan.  Their CEO Mark Wang is also competent and has overseen a significant expansion of new properties in the past few years without a significant increase in maintenance fees or onerous policies on owners. What may be a challenge to them however will be the addition of the Diamond trust system. They don't have experience with points trusts.

MVC strikes me as the dog that chased and caught the car...now that they made the merger, they don't know what to do next.


----------



## VacationForever (Jan 7, 2022)

The pre-arrival concierge called me, followed by an email.  Here was my email back to her: "We don’t want to waste the salesperson’s time and it is also a waste of our time when there is no new information to share."


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 7, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Good points. That's why I am more confident HGVC will execute on (or close) to when they say they will. My sense is that HGVC has a plan.  Their CEO Mark Wang is also competent and has overseen a significant expansion of new properties in the past few years without a significant increase in maintenance fees or onerous policies on owners. What may be a challenge to them however will be the addition of the Diamond trust system. They don't have experience with points trusts.
> 
> MVC strikes me as the dog that chased and caught the car...now that they made the merger, they don't know what to do next.


I suspect Marriott is trying to do too much with a combined program. Instead of some simple cross booking platform, they want to change the world. They should have gone with the KISS approach.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Jan 8, 2022)

@dioxide45 You may be right.  Sounds like MVC has fallen into the bromide: "Don't let the pursuit of perfection become the enemy of good."


----------



## SueDonJ (Jan 8, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect Marriott is trying to do too much with a combined program. Instead of some simple cross booking platform, they want to change the world. They should have gone with the KISS approach.



The earliest speculation about Marriott coming out with a points program started years before they actually did it, ten if I'm remembering right. To me it feels like Marriott it moving right along with the Vistana integration, considering that they have to obtain regulatory approval for whatever the program will be as well as the official documents that accompany it. And if the Vistana integration is at all affiliated with the Destination Club (which is what I think will happen,) I expect that just the one step of determining DC allotments for eligible Vistana Weeks (based on resort/season/unit size/unit view and relative to similar intervals in the Marriott Weeks system) is eating up a good chunk of this time.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 8, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> The earliest speculation about Marriott coming out with a points program started years before they actually did it, ten if I'm remembering right. To me it feels like Marriott it moving right along with the Vistana integration, considering that they have to obtain regulatory approval for whatever the program will be as well as the official documents that accompany it. And if the Vistana integration is at all affiliated with the Destination Club (which is what I think will happen,) I expect that just the one step of determining DC allotments for eligible Vistana Weeks (based on resort/season/unit size/unit view and relative to similar intervals in the Marriott Weeks system) is eating up a good chunk of this time.


I am simply comparing Marriott to Hilton/Diamond. I am not saying it isn't easy, but Hilton seems to be moving at a much faster pace than Marriott is. I would think Hilton has similar regulatory requirements as Marriott and Diamond has a similar points trust as DC.

It isn't like these point allocations for Vistana weeks is anything new. Most of the Vistana resorts are sitting in locations where there are also Marriott Vacation Club properties. Is a Vistana Villages 2BR going to be all that much different than a 2BR at Grande Vista? The same in Palm Desert, Maui, and several other locations. Allocating points should be fairly easy if that is what they want to do. I certainly understand that 2020 and 2021 were a down year for rolling out such a program, but given all that time, they should have something ready to drop. We could at least be provided an official time frame in some official communication to owners rather than rumor and speculation provided in owner update meetings. We pretty much hear crickets from MVC corporate.


----------



## SueDonJ (Jan 8, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I am simply comparing Marriott to Hilton/Diamond. I am not saying it isn't easy, but Hilton seems to be moving at a much faster pace than Marriott is. I would think Hilton has similar regulatory requirements as Marriott and Diamond has a similar points trust as DC.
> 
> It isn't like these point allocations for Vistana weeks is anything new. Most of the Vistana resorts are sitting in locations where there are also Marriott Vacation Club properties. Is a Vistana Villages 2BR going to be all that much different than a 2BR at Grande Vista? The same in Palm Desert, Maui, and several other locations. Allocating points should be fairly easy if that is what they want to do. I certainly understand that 2020 and 2021 were a down year for rolling out such a program, but given all that time, they should have something ready to drop. We could at least be provided an official time frame in some official communication to owners rather than rumor and speculation provided in owner update meetings. We pretty much hear crickets from MVC corporate.



I get all that, but there's nothing in Marriott's history to suggest that they will give us anything more than crickets until they're ready to go, is there? In the meantime we can at least be certain that they're working on _something_, because their official Investor Calls have made mention of it through several cycles now.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 8, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> I get all that, but there's nothing in Marriott's history to suggest that they will give us anything more than crickets until they're ready to go, is there? In the meantime we can at least be certain that they're working on _something_, because their official Investor Calls have made mention of it through several cycles now.


There isn't, and that is the issue I have. I guess I just have to live with it... Their communication is as bad as their IT. We pay a lot of money for what we own, we can certainly expect more even if we won't get it.


----------



## emeryjre (Jan 8, 2022)

Again discussing “air” program.  We have no program to discuss.


----------



## jabberwocky (Jan 8, 2022)

Maybe we should just have a single thread where we can consolidate all discussions surrounding the Vistana integration?  It seems like we are getting a lot of clutter - but little real information - every time someone posts about their most recent presentation experience.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 8, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> Maybe we should just have a single thread where we can consolidate all discussions surrounding the Vistana integration?  It seems like we are getting a lot of clutter - but little real information - every time someone posts about their most recent presentation experience.


Agree! I made this suggestion earlier to one of the moderators. I think it is a good idea!


----------



## Ken555 (Jan 8, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> Maybe we should just have a single thread where we can consolidate all discussions surrounding the Vistana integration? It seems like we are getting a lot of clutter - but little real information - every time someone posts about their most recent presentation experience.



We should just tag each thread with “[FICTION]”. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 8, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> We should just tag each thread with “[FICTION]”.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Or [PREDICTION]


----------



## Eric B (Jan 8, 2022)

Maybe set up a sub-forum for the topic of integration similar to the COVID-19 one under the TUG Lounge?


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 8, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Maybe set up a sub-forum for the topic of integration similar to the COVID-19 one under the TUG Lounge?


I doubt a temporary sub forum will go over well with the admin. A single thread is probably better, BUT DON'T MAKE IT A STICKY. No one looks at stickies until told to look at stickies.


----------



## chemteach (Jan 8, 2022)

On integrating Marriott/Vistana - one big difference between Marriott and Vistana is that in the current Vistana Staroptions system, a 2 bedroom lockout platinum season Westin unit is worth the same number of staroptions regardless of where the deed is located.  So a Maui 2 bedroom lockout has the same value as a Westin Palm Desert 2 bedroom lockout.  That has been a win for people who own Westin in Palm Desert or Sheraton true platinum weeks at Sheraton Desert Oasis.  (2 BR lockouts at Sheraton Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach earn only about 1/2 the number of staroptions as 2 BR Westin platinum lockout units.)  In any event, any switch to a new system will likely not give the Palm Desert or Arizona owners the same advantage.  (Of course, this last statement is fiction/prediction!     )


----------



## JIMinNC (Jan 8, 2022)

I haven't engaged much in the recent Marriott/Vistana integration speculation because it seemed to be just that - rampant speculation and spin by Sales. This recent round feels different to me, though, and seems more credible for the following reasons:

1) The reported timing is generally consistent with what Executive Management has disclosed in their investor/earnings presentations
2) It seems we have now had multiple reports that have said basically the same thing
3) Most of those reports have come from the Vistana side of the integration. If these latest rumors are true, the Vistana reps are now selling a product that will soon sunset (as far as new sales are concerned), so it makes sense that they have been briefed at a high level what the new product will look like so they can adapt their sales presentation to let prospects know that while they are buying FlexOptions today, those will eventually convert to Destination Points on some basis.

So, while I agree that anything you hear at a sales presentation needs to be taken with a large grain of salt, this latest round may actually be our first meaningful clues as to what the eventual integration will look like. Of course, it could also turn out to be just more B.S. (Bountiful Speculation - thanks @davidvel for the acronym), but this does feel different to me.


----------



## MotherBear26 (Jan 9, 2022)

I don't know enough about the Vistana/Marriott systems, but if you own a  Vistana timeshare property and have enough points, aren't you able to trade into Marriott via II? Is there a conversion chart showing how many points are needed?


----------



## CPNY (Jan 9, 2022)

MotherBear26 said:


> I don't know enough about the Vistana/Marriott systems, but if you own a  Vistana timeshare property and have enough points, aren't you able to trade into Marriott via II? Is there a conversion chart showing how many points are needed?


I’d guess that most Vistana owners (not anyone on TUG) don’t use II. They often forget that’s an option or are so inexperienced  that they were never able to exchange for what they wanted in the past. Leading them to think that interval is useless. Marriott weeks owners relied on interval to to book other Marriott’s, vistana owners rely on the VSN. Interval was always on the back burner.


----------



## Eric B (Jan 9, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I’d guess that most Vistana owners (not anyone on TUG) don’t use II. They often forget that’s an option or are so inexperienced  that they were never able to exchange for what they wanted in the past. Leading them to think that interval is useless. Marriott weeks owners relied on interval to to book other Marriott’s, vistana owners rely on the VSN. Interval was always on the back burner.



Probably true for those owning mandatory resale weeks, but there are a lot that talk about SDO and SBP as being great traders in II.


----------



## CPNY (Jan 9, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Probably true for those owning mandatory resale weeks, but there are a lot that talk about SDO and SBP as being great traders in II.


True, there are great traders for sure, but people on TUG talking about traders know how to use ownerships. The majority of vistana owners outside of TUG probably don’t buy resale traders for interval. They probably only buy SBP resale to go to SBP every year.


----------



## VacationForever (Jan 9, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I’d guess that most Vistana owners (not anyone on TUG) don’t use II. They often forget that’s an option or are so inexperienced  that they were never able to exchange for what they wanted in the past. Leading them to think that interval is useless. Marriott weeks owners relied on interval to to book other Marriott’s, vistana owners rely on the VSN. Interval was always on the back burner.


Not me.  I am about 50-50 in II vs. VSN.  In fact I was using RCI and the II for the first 20 years of my ownership.  Now I am 50-50.


----------



## lkc1234 (Jan 9, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> We have seen this thread about two dozen times already. Do we need to keep starting new ones?


No need to be disrespectful. I had not seen the previous threads and appreciated the information.


----------



## lkc1234 (Jan 9, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> But that isn't as much fun for the people that want to pop in here to tell us all the news like we hadn't heard it before!


I don't understand the snide remarks. Having a bad day?


----------



## lkc1234 (Jan 9, 2022)

CPNY said:


> True, there are great traders for sure, but people on TUG talking about traders know how to use ownerships. The majority of vistana owners outside of TUG probably don’t buy resale traders for interval. They probably only buy SBP resale to go to SBP every year.


I have 2 Sheraton Broadway units in Myrtle Beach and a Marriott platinum unit in Branson, Mo. I have never been to either resort. I use them to trade thru II into Marriott's in Hilton Head each summer. The Sheraton units are great traders into Marriott. I currently have reserved 6 consecutive weeks in Hilton Head next June and July. The grandkids love Hilton Head.


----------



## CPNY (Jan 9, 2022)

lkc1234 said:


> I have 2 Sheraton Broadway units in Myrtle Beach and a Marriott platinum unit in Branson, Mo. I have never been to either resort. I use them to trade thru II into Marriott's in Hilton Head each summer. The Sheraton units are great traders into Marriott. I currently have reserved 6 consecutive weeks in Hilton Head next June and July. The grandkids love Hilton Head.


You’re on tug….. I expect you to trade. The majority of vistana owners NOT on tug don’t use interval. That is my point,


----------



## CPNY (Jan 9, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> Not me.  I am about 50-50 in II vs. VSN.  In fact I was using RCI and the II for the first 20 years of my ownership.  Now I am 50-50.


I’d expect you to know how to use interval  the majority of NON TUG owners probably rarely if ever use II.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 9, 2022)

lkc1234 said:


> No need to be disrespectful. I had not seen the previous threads and appreciated the information.





lkc1234 said:


> I don't understand the snide remarks. Having a bad day?


You only have to look at the first page or two of the forum to find at least one other thread on the topic. This is a pretty popular topic, it should pretty much be assumed there are other threads on the topic before the need to start other ones.

Here is one about 3/4 the way down the first page.








						Latest info from encore presentation at Westin
					

We are here on an encore package and just attended the presentation.  Sheraton flex will convert 32:1 to Marriott DC points. Westin flex will convert 28:1. You have to elect to convert the flex options into Marriott DC points the year prior to use year, similar to how deeded Marriott weeks must...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## lkc1234 (Jan 9, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> You only have to look at the first page or two of the forum to find at least one other thread on the topic. This is a pretty popular topic, it should pretty much be assumed there are other threads on the topic before the need to start other ones.
> 
> Here is one about 3/4 the way down the first page.
> 
> ...


If not interested no need to read.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 9, 2022)

lkc1234 said:


> If not interested no need to read.


I am interested, but we are seeing more and more posts about the topic. Just wanting to try to keep it all in one place is all.


----------



## lkc1234 (Jan 9, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I am interested, but we are seeing more and more posts about the topic. Just wanting to try to keep it all in one place is all.


Understand. Thanks.


----------



## CPNY (Jan 9, 2022)

When I checked into SVR yesterday I was informed that there may be issues with room charges since they are completely updating their system to be compatible with Marriott reservations. Could it be a sign of things to come or just a complete system upgrade?


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 9, 2022)

CPNY said:


> When I checked into SVR yesterday I was informed that there may be issues with room charges since they are completely updating their system to be compatible with Marriott reservations. Could it be a sign of things to come or just a complete system upgrade?


Who knows, but that reminds me, I need to call SVR tomorrow because of $27 in charges on our bill from our stay there in December. I emailed them twice with no reply.


----------



## CPNY (Jan 9, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Who knows, but that reminds me, I need to call SVR tomorrow because of $27 in charges on our bill from our stay there in December. I emailed them twice with no reply.


I’ve emailed vistana 3 times and called resolution services about getting my MF credited to my account. According to Chase I paid but according to Vistana I owe 1400 bucks…. Id rather be in your situation lol


----------



## suzannesimon (Jan 9, 2022)

michael49 said:


> We paid $695 to enroll our pre-2010 MVC weeks.
> In hindsight, it was a great decision, as we now tend to use our points, rather than II.


Yes that is what I recall was $695 for 2 weeks. Be prepared to have your weeks skimmed when you elect the Destination points. If you turn in your week, you will get about 6 nights in points to use if you are looking at the same size and season.  It’s something that infuriated a lot of Marriott weeks owners.


----------



## DanCali (Jan 10, 2022)

suzannesimon said:


> Yes that is what I recall was $695 for 2 weeks. Be prepared to have your weeks skimmed when you elect the Destination points. If you turn in your week, you will get about 6 nights in points to use if you are looking at the same size and season.  It’s something that infuriated a lot of Marriott weeks owners.



The average "skim" was 5%-7%. That's less than 1 night (which would be about 14%) but still enough to be bothersome.

For those not not familiar with the Marriott "skim" - here is a relatively quick explanation:

When the points system launched each resort was assigned points required to book every week of the year. This was similar to the Staroptions chart except is was very detailed and much more in line with supply and demand for hotel rooms - more points for more desirable weeks. For weeks owners, one might have expected that the number of points you get when you convert to points would be equal to the average points required to book a week in your season. That wouldn't mean you could book every week in your season with points - because weeks in a season have different points requirements, but it'd make the total "points in" equal total "points out" - if all owners used points and then all booked at their own home resort nothing would be left over (that's how it works for Vistana Staroptions). As it turned out, owners got about 5%-7% less than the average points required to book a week in the season they own.  In the Vistana world this would be similar to WKV  or WKORV Platinum 2BR owners getting only 137K SOs instead of 148K SOs even though it takes 148K SOs to book a week in the season they own.

The "skim" would be immediately noticeable by Vistana owners in the above example. In the MVC reality, after points are allocated to each week,  it's harder to see unless you do the math. Take Newport Coast Villas platinum season as an extreme example of supply and demand in an ill-defined Platinum season. The Platinum season for weeks runs from week 23 to week 51 (excluding week 26 - July 4 holiday). But in the points world approximately:

7 of those weeks require 4225 points to book (early summer and late summer)
7 of those weeks require 4725 points to book (mid summer).
14 of those weeks require 2900 points to book (mid September onward)

So the number of points needed to book an "average week" in the season is about 3690. But owners converting a platinum week to points actually get 3475 points (about 5.7% less). Neither 3690 or 3475 would be enough to book a summer week with points but both would be good to book 8 nights in the fall. Most owners do not convert to points to book at their own resort but the issue remains that owners get slightly less than is required to book an "average" week in the season they own. That said, most owners are probably not even aware of the "skim" and if they are aware of it, they probably believe the flexibility is worth it.


----------



## SueDonJ (Jan 10, 2022)

suzannesimon said:


> Yes that is what I recall was $695 for 2 weeks. Be prepared to have your weeks skimmed when you elect the Destination points. If you turn in your week, you will get about 6 nights in points to use if you are looking at the same size and season.  It’s something that infuriated a lot of Marriott weeks owners.



Assuming that what's offered to Vistana Weeks owners is the same as what's offered to Marriott Weeks owners (which is not at all certain at this point,) it's absolutely correct that what TUGgers call "The Skim" was at the outset a contentious issue and it remains one for many Weeks Owners.

It's true, in many cases the DC Points allotments (based on resort/season/unit size/unit view differentials) for enrolled Weeks are less than the amount of DC Points required to book a same interval. But it's important to note that if a Week is enrolled it does not mean that the DC Points allotments are automatically distributed. After enrollment Owners can use their enrolled Weeks in every way that they could prior to enrollment, and the election to convert an enrolled Week to DC Points is an annual election that must be transacted by the Owners. If Owners want to stay in their owned Weeks the same as they always have, they simply do not elect conversion in that usage year.

About @DanCali's "average" breakouts - that example plays out because the seasonal calendar for that particular resort has a highest-demand Platinum season that extends beyond only the calendar weeks that actually represent the highest-demand usage weeks. Many other Marriott resort seasonal calendars align more closely with highest-demand periods, meaning at those resorts the DC Points allotments do not conform to the "average" breakouts. At a few resorts, the Aruba ones being most impacted if I'm remembering correctly, not one calendar week can be booked using DC Points allotments instead of the Weeks. *Again, though, enrollment is not a permanent exchange of Weeks for DC Points, meaning Owners of enrolled Weeks can still use the Weeks as they've always been able to use them.* The enrollment benefits for those Owners whose usage would be negatively affected by The Skim might be that the transaction fees (especially if a Week is exchanged via II) total more than the annual Club Dues fee that covers most transaction fees, or, that enrollment opens a Destination Club account through which DC Points rentals can be processed in or out.


----------



## DanCali (Jan 10, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> ...At a few resorts, the Aruba ones being most impacted if I'm remembering correctly, not one calendar week can be booked using DC Points allotments instead of the Weeks.



This would be similar to the example I gave where a WKORV 2BR owners gets 137K instead of 148K SOs.

But in all cases at MVC the math is the same. Compute the points required to book the "average week" in the season you own, and the points allotted by Marriott for that season are 5%-7% less. Sometimes those points can actually book a week (or more) in the season you own (like the Newport Coast example above) and sometimes it's not enough to book any single week in the season you own. But to me that's neither here nor there because, like you said, weeks can still be used as weeks and if you can actually book a week in the season you own with points, it's usually one less desired. I have no desire to book 8-9 nights in the fall at Newport Coast with points - almost all owners prefer summer, and the points calendar reflects that.

Saving on II exchanges is probably not a factor here because it seems that owners who might be eligible to use the DC points system would be the same ones with "authorized weeks" and therefore already have a corporate II account.

The ability to rent points though (both ways) is indeed a very nice option and adds a lot of flexibility.


----------



## Eric B (Jan 10, 2022)

DanCali said:


> Saving on II exchanges is probably not a factor here because it seems that owners who might be eligible to use the DC points system would be the same ones with "authorized weeks" and therefore already have a corporate II account.



I own several mandatory unauthorized weeks and have a corporate II account from Vistana.  I have to pay transaction fees on II exchanges; do folks with authorized Vistana weeks not have to pay those?


----------



## dsmrp (Jan 10, 2022)

Eric B said:


> I own several mandatory unauthorized weeks and have a corporate II account from Vistana.  I have to pay transaction fees on II exchanges; do folks with authorized Vistana weeks not have to pay those?


Nope, we pay II exchange fees too.  They are discounted, ($40-50?? can't remember exactly) for Vistana to Vistana or Marriott exchanges.


----------



## DanCali (Jan 10, 2022)

Eric B said:


> I own several mandatory unauthorized weeks and have a corporate II account from Vistana.  I have to pay transaction fees on II exchanges; do folks with authorized Vistana weeks not have to pay those?




I believe they do. But if you have unauthorized voluntary weeks you also need to pay an II membership fee to have an account. That won't go away if you are not allowed into the DC points system and get a corporate account as part of it.


----------



## Eric B (Jan 10, 2022)

DanCali said:


> I believe they do. But if you have unauthorized voluntary weeks you also need to pay an II membership fee to have an account. That won't go away if you are not allowed into the DC points system and get a corporate account as part of it.



Roger that; I've got non-Vistana ones in an II account already, so that's not an issue.  The reason I had asked was the comment on the lack of a savings on II exchanges.


----------



## rog2867 (Jan 10, 2022)

So Vistana just called me to tell me I have a "new counselor" and wanted to go over with me the changes coming up with Marriott integration.  She said the new info on what is going to be going on with the merger will be coming out in the next few weeks.  Here is what she told me.   Westin will be the top brand, followed by Marriott then Sheraton.   You can book your home weeks at 12 months out just like normal.   Everyone will be able to book at 8 months out for Marriott and for Vistana going both ways.   She said for  a two bedroom Marriott it will be 110K options and Westin still stays at 148100 for most.   She then of course tries to sell me into the Westin Club points system because it will be the most valuable as the points needed to get into those properties will be more.


----------



## rog2867 (Jan 10, 2022)

I just posted a thread about this.  I was told the exact same thing on a phone call.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 10, 2022)

Eric B said:


> I own several mandatory unauthorized weeks and have a corporate II account from Vistana.  I have to pay transaction fees on II exchanges; do folks with authorized Vistana weeks not have to pay those?


The only thing that Authorizes weeks save is the annual II membership fee. Both authorized and unauthorized pay the same Vistana to Vistana or Vistana to Marriott exchange fee ($55 discount).


----------



## DanCali (Jan 10, 2022)

Given that the currency will not even be StarOptions, I doubt any of that is remotely true... There is no 8 month threshold at Marriott and no reason why there should be. If a Vistana owner converts to DC points 13 months in advance, there is no reason why a Marriott owner couldn't book that week at 13 months in advance, just like if a Vistana owner deposits in II 12 months in advance then an II trader can grab that week 12 months in advance with an ongoing request.

You should have told her to call back after the website is back up!


----------



## Eric B (Jan 10, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> The only thing that Authorizes weeks save is the annual II membership fee. Both authorized and unauthorized pay the same Vistana to Vistana or Vistana to Marriott exchange fee ($55 discount).



Actually, I don't pay a membership fee for the corporate II account for my unauthorized mandatory weeks.  For my unauthorized voluntary weeks (just picked a couple up), I plan to add them to my individual II account, so that won't result in any additional II membership fees for me.  I was only curious about the one issue about no II exchange savings because I hadn't seen anything that hinted a lack of exchange fees in II for authorized weeks; good to know I'm not missing anything.


----------



## rog2867 (Jan 10, 2022)

she was just using the current star options values as a guide I guess.   What she told me matches exactly what the other poster said they were told at their owners update.    She said when the programs are combined if your an owner just like always you can book your home resort at 12 months and then the program is open for either programs owners at 8 months to try to get into those other properties.  Were not talking II here just straight up vistana working in the program only.


----------



## Veritoalsol (Jan 11, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I’d expect you to know how to use interval  the majority of NON TUG owners probably rarely if ever use II.


Hi - so i m one of those newbies who do not understand the II platform - the user experience and site design are also awful and confusing. Any idea where there is a thread that can explain how to best leverage it? I have a mandatory resale for the Staroptions (SVV) and a voluntary for just yearly use (Lagunamar). I'm just afraid of doing something wrong and waste my options. Thanks!


----------



## michael49 (Jan 12, 2022)

suzannesimon said:


> Yes that is what I recall was $695 for 2 weeks. Be prepared to have your weeks skimmed when you elect the Destination points. If you turn in your week, you will get about 6 nights in points to use if you are looking at the same size and season.  It’s something that infuriated a lot of Marriott weeks owners.


As far as I am concerned, the "skim" is irrelevant. If I want to get the full value of my weeks, I simply book those weeks, thereby avoiding the "skim".


----------



## ocdb8r (Jan 12, 2022)

michael49 said:


> As far as I am concerned, the "skim" is irrelevant. If I want to get the full value of my weeks, I simply book those weeks, thereby avoiding the "skim".



I agree...and I think most MVC owners have gotten over it in the long term.  I think at the time it was offensive that MVC somehow kept some value of the week when exchanged for DC points.  In reality, it's likely this "skim" that provides pretty decent flexibility in the system.  Sure, at some level MVC "skims" some amount of points I suspect they are somehow otherwise able to monetize BUT DP transactions also have no fees (no reservation fees, no cancellation fees and no change fees)...so overall I think the system has played out to be very fair.


----------



## RunCat (Jan 12, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> ...The concierge wants the commission, at the expense of wasting the time of the salesperson.



It does not only waste the salesperson's time, it hurts the salesperson.  Most timeshare salespeople have an average sales $$/tour that they must maintain to keep their job. Every no-sale tour hurts those numbers.
But marketing and sales have different jobs and are compensated differently.   At some resorts, I know the concierge marketing people and am more than happy to go on a tour to help their numbers.


----------



## DanCali (Jan 12, 2022)

RunCat said:


> It does not only waste the salesperson's time, it hurts the salesperson.  Most timeshare salespeople have an average sales $$/tour that they must maintain to keep their job. Every no-sale tour hurts those numbers.
> But marketing and sales have different jobs and are compensated differently.   At some resorts, I know the concierge marketing people and am more than happy to go on a tour to help their numbers.



The marketing tactics of the concierge people also seem to annoy the salespeople. We often get asked by salespeople "Why did you attend if you had no intention to buy?" And we always respond "We were told it was an owner's update and wanted to see what's new..."

That seems to always hit a nerve where they'll say we should have known it was a sales pitch.  We just respond that when they tell us a sales pitch then we won't bother. As long as it's an "Owner's Update" we'll go because we want to hear the new changes.

I do feel bad for wasting their time, but they are all part of the same organization. If that's the game they want to play, so be it. And we did end up making a developer purchase once when the stars aligned and the offer was right for us (as informed buyers), so maybe at some point their patience (and points/visa card offers) will pay off again.


----------



## The Colorado Kid (Jan 12, 2022)

Imagine other sales situations...this attitiude would seem ridiculous:
Open House Home visit - "Why did you stop in today if you knew you weren't going to buy this house?"
Car lot - "Why did you stop by the car lot today if you knew you weren't going to buy a car today?"
Department store - "Why did you come in today if you knew you weren't going to buy anything?"


----------



## chemteach (Jan 12, 2022)

A few years ago, a Marriott salesperson told me that I shouldn't accept the offers for 4 free nights to attend a sales presentation because I should think about the poor salespeople who have to make a living.  The guilt trips that salespeople try to put on people who go to the presentations is just a part of their crazy game.  I have so many responses I could state back, but I always defer so that I can get out of the presentation as quickly as possible.


----------



## alexadeparis (Jan 12, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I’ve emailed vistana 3 times and called resolution services about getting my MF credited to my account. According to Chase I paid but according to Vistana I owe 1400 bucks…. Id rather be in your situation lol


was it for a WSJ unit because i am having the exact same issue


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad (Jan 12, 2022)

DanCali said:


> We often get asked by salespeople "Why did you attend if you had no intention to buy?" And we always respond "We were told it was an owner's update and wanted to see what's new..."


If they ever said that to me I'd say "I had every intention to buy but unfortunately you didn't have what I wanted at a price I was willing to pay".


----------



## RunCat (Jan 12, 2022)

DanCali said:


> The marketing tactics of the concierge people also seem to annoy the salespeople. We often get asked by salespeople "Why did you attend if you had no intention to buy?" And we always respond "We were told it was an owner's update and wanted to see what's new..."
> 
> That seems to always hit a nerve where they'll say we should have known it was a sales pitch.  We just respond that when they tell us a sales pitch then we won't bother. As long as it's an "Owner's Update" we'll go because we want to hear the new changes.
> 
> I do feel bad for wasting their time, but they are all part of the same organization. If that's the game they want to play, so be it. And we did end up making a developer purchase once when the stars aligned and the offer was right for us (as informed buyers), so maybe at some point their patience (and points/visa card offers) will pay off again.



I've gotten the same comments as well. . . Usually from a sales manager that knows that I used to sell timeshares.  I would also get, "You know how this works. Why are you going on a tour?" 
I figure that if they want to pay me for my time, I have the option of taking their money.  If they want me to stop,  stop asking me to attend.  Or, for owners, make all Owner's Updates gift-free; albeit they will likely have far fewer appointments.

And to get mad at the marketing person is misplaced.  The marketing person's sole job is to get people to a sales presentation.  The salesperson needs to figure out how to get the sale.  And those that do, are paid quite well for doing so.   

Also, if the salesperson did not have any appointments, they would also be mad at marketing.


----------



## RunCat (Jan 12, 2022)

chemteach said:


> A few years ago, a Marriott salesperson told me that I shouldn't accept the offers for 4 free nights to attend a sales presentation because I should think about the poor salespeople who have to make a living.  The guilt trips that salespeople try to put on people who go to the presentations is just a part of their crazy game.  I have so many responses I could state back, but I always defer so that I can get out of the presentation as quickly as possible.



BS... the % of people that buy after purchasing a "come-back"/"explorer"/"4-night" package is higher than the person off the street.   People that make those comments are usually sales managers trying to look out for their poor-performing salespeople.  If the averages get too low,  the salesperson is soon terminated.


----------



## daviator (Jan 12, 2022)

What's interesting to me is that they don't seem to keep track of who is a likely prospect vs. an unlikely one.

They seem to keep bribing people to attend presentations even after many, many unsuccessful attempts to sell them more (hope springs eternal?)

They even try to get my 85-year-old mother to go to an "owner's update" when she uses her ownership.  What person in their right mind is going to buy a timeshare in their 80s?  I guess they're hoping she is no longer "in her right mind."   (Unfortunately for them, she still has all her marbles.)

I have told them, more times that I can count, that I already own as much or more than I can use, and that one of these days I will inherit even more, and that I'm not interested in converting deeded weeks to Flex.  Yet they still eagerly pay me to attend updates and happily sell me Encore packages (which are a great deal, usually.)


----------



## CPNY (Jan 12, 2022)

alexadeparis said:


> was it for a WSJ unit because i am having the exact same issue


Nope, it all happened on the day no one could pay their MF, they have tickets opened and are researching it. But it’s taking way too long


----------



## cubigbird (Jan 12, 2022)

daviator said:


> What's interesting to me is that they don't seem to keep track of who is a likely prospect vs. an unlikely one.
> 
> They seem to keep bribing people to attend presentations even after many, many unsuccessful attempts to sell them more (hope springs eternal?)
> 
> ...



I have begun purchasing the encore packages.  If you use them well they are a great deal.  I specifically like the universal/global encore packages as it is possible to get into good locations typically during high season and get access to a different pool of inventory.


----------



## daviator (Jan 12, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> I have begun purchasing the encore packages.  If you use them well they are a great deal.  I specifically like the universal/global encore packages as it is possible to get into good locations typically during high season and get access to a different pool of inventory.


I didn't know there were universal/global encore packages, I've only ever been offered the "return to this property" packages.  How do the global ones work, and when/how are those offered?


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 12, 2022)

daviator said:


> I didn't know there were universal/global encore packages, I've only ever been offered the "return to this property" packages.  How do the global ones work, and when/how are those offered?


Global ones are usually more expensive and come with half as many Bonvoy points or cash as the resort specific ones. Just ask the next time you are offered a resort specific one if they have one that is good at more properties.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 12, 2022)

The timeshare sales model is an interesting one and has been this way for decades. The truth is that timeshare is a sold product. How many people go into a timeshare presentation saying they are going to buy? I won't say none because at least one person will come along and say they did. For the most part though, less than 1% of people go in planning to buy. The whole sales model is based on butts in seats. More butts in seats = more sales. They know that only one in x number buy. Probably something like one in ten. If you can increase the number of people through the floor, you increase the sales by about the same amount.

They could do a better job of qualifying people, but marketing doesn't care. They get their bonuses and commission based on butts in seats. It is up to sales to close the deal. Sales just makes snide remarks because it makes them feel better.


----------



## RunCat (Jan 13, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Sales just makes snide remarks because it makes them feel better.



For the salesperson on the edge of employment, I think it is something beyond "it makes them feel better."  
And I feel a little "bad" every time that I go on an Owner's Update, because (as I stated above) I know how it works.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 13, 2022)

RunCat said:


> For the salesperson on the edge of employment, I think it is something beyond "it makes them feel better."
> And I feel a little "bad" every time that I go on an Owner's Update, because (as I stated above) I know how it works.


Sales people are 100% commision. If they aren't cutting it on the sales floor, they are far better to move on. They aren't helping themselves by staying in that position. If they aren't hitting the 1 in n metrics, it isn't the fault of a few of us who go in without a plan to buy. *Almost* everyone goes in without a plan to buy.

Some people simply aren't cut out for sales. It is one reason you will never see me in there selling. Tried it once (not timeshare) and it wasn't for me.


----------



## regatta333 (Jan 16, 2022)

We were told on a recent owner update that the Vistana II exchange fee of $154 for Marriott exchanges would be going to zero.  Has anyone else heard the same?


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 16, 2022)

regatta333 said:


> We were told on a recent owner update that the Vistana II exchange fee of $154 for Marriott exchanges would be going to zero.  Has anyone else heard the same?


That could be the case if they integrate it into the existing Marriott DC program and structure. Marriott DC enrolled owners pay $0 for Marriott to Marriott and Marriott to Vistana exchanges.


----------



## regatta333 (Jan 16, 2022)

Do Westin and Sheraton flex owner have to pay the $154 fee to exchange into Marriott resorts through Interval?


----------



## tschwa2 (Jan 16, 2022)

regatta333 said:


> Do Westin and Sheraton flex owner have to pay the $154 fee to exchange into Marriott resorts through Interval?


currently yes, discounted exchange fee applies when exchanging into Vistana or Marriott through Interval.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 16, 2022)

regatta333 said:


> Do Westin and Sheraton flex owner have to pay the $154 fee to exchange into Marriott resorts through Interval?


It is actually $164 now with the price increase on January 1st.


----------



## controller1 (Jan 16, 2022)

DanCali said:


> The marketing tactics of the concierge people also seem to annoy the salespeople. We often get asked by salespeople "Why did you attend if you had no intention to buy?" And we always respond "We were told it was an owner's update and wanted to see what's new..."





RunCat said:


> I've gotten the same comments as well. . . Usually from a sales manager that knows that I used to sell timeshares.  I would also get, "You know how this works. Why are you going on a tour?"





RunCat said:


> For the salesperson on the edge of employment, I think it is something beyond "it makes them feel better."
> And I feel a little "bad" every time that I go on an Owner's Update, because (as I stated above) I know how it works.



For the past several years I've been prepared to answer that question but I've never been asked "Why did you attend if you had no intention of buying?"

How was I prepared? I keep the sign-up card from the concierge when I sign up for a presentation which lists what will be reviewed:

Company news
Resort updates
Portfolio review
Villa resort collection
What's new with Marriott Bonvoy
External exchange
Elite privileges
Current pricing and on-tour incentives


----------



## Ptc559 (Jan 16, 2022)

Ok So I owned a Sheraton Vistana 2br in FLA and converted it to the Flex program, 44k Flex points, which allowed me to book in any Sheraton Resort.
Question: My understanding is that with the flex program you will be able to use the flex points to book into any Marriott Resort very soon? or not ?
Can anyone answer this since it is Very confusing


----------



## dioxide45 (Jan 16, 2022)

Ptc559 said:


> Ok So I owned a Sheraton Vistana 2br in FLA and converted it to the Flex program, 44k Flex points, which allowed me to book in any Sheraton Resort.
> Question: My understanding is that with the flex program you will be able to use the flex points to book into any Marriott Resort very soon? or not ?
> Can anyone answer this since it is Very confusing


No one can answer that right now. We think so, but we don't know.


----------



## Mowogo (Jan 17, 2022)

Ptc559 said:


> Ok So I owned a Sheraton Vistana 2br in FLA and converted it to the Flex program, 44k Flex points, which allowed me to book in any Sheraton Resort.
> Question: My understanding is that with the flex program you will be able to use the flex points to book into any Marriott Resort very soon? or not ?
> Can anyone answer this since it is Very confusing


Anything about Vistana exchanging with Marriott directly without interval is pure speculation at this point.  The only reason there is any confidence in first half of next year is because that is what is being sold to investors who they can't lie to.  Many believe that flex will exchange with DC, but until it is announced we don't know the details.  Just be warned with 44k Flex Points you won't likely be able to do much in the combined program though we don't know how much the skim on the exchanges will be.


----------



## pedro47 (Jan 17, 2022)

I'm not up to trying to learn another exchange system


----------



## ChiefIlliniwek (Jan 17, 2022)

I've been asked several times why I attended a meeting.  Every time I answer "your company asked me to attend."  That ends it.  I think I've subjected myself to six presentations so far.


----------



## sfwilshire (Jan 17, 2022)

The Colorado Kid said:


> Is this done in other TS systems/HOA's and is it a viable way to acquire or too much of a legal hassle?



I would say it's common. In the 90s, I attended a few timeshare foreclosure sales in the county that includes Gatlinburg. There were a couple of the resorts that almost always purchased all their units. Not sure how the accounting was handled. 

Sheila


----------

