# I need HELP!



## The Nest (Jun 11, 2012)

I will be 57 in November.  Back in Aug 08. because of someone using my work number to come to a “free” weekend at Shawnee, I decided to go. I took my wife and youngest son. My wife and I had to go to a “1 hour” presentation.  It was a Wyndham timeshare. Soon as I heard “timeshare” I said no way.  The “lady” assured me that it was because of going to the same property that what has made timeshares bad.  That has all changed with the points system.  Of course all that wasn’t changing my mind until my wife said that our daughter had a timeshare.  I didn’t know that.  With the “you can leave the timeshare to her” when you die and it being a well known name, Wyndham, sealed the deal for me.  My wife and I work 7 days a week, 14 hours a day (1 full time job and 2 businesses), the timeshare was really for my daughter or son, but I guess I can use it once in a while.  It cost $25,000 for two weeks (154,000 points) plus and extra 154,000 points which expire in 3 years.  It was a lot, but forever I guess.  I don’t know why I didn’t call my daughter, but when I did, it was too late (the 9 days for PA had expired).  She said that although she liked the timeshare, the cost and maintenance fees were killing her.  She said, “please don’t leave your timeshare with me”.  Maintenance fees are forever??  Yes, and she was paying $128 per month for a Disney timeshare.  I was devastated and extremely pissed.  How can she lie like that?

So it has been 3 years (Sep 11) and I never used the timeshare or rent.  I have gotten a call for a “party city” or something like that.  We went figuring we could do something about this timeshare thing.  Another lady that sat down with us said what was going on with our timeshare and I said that I have no time to take them.  She said the reason was because I didn’t have the upgrade which would allow the points to go year to year for 3 years instead of expiring at the end of the year.  She said I was tired looking and needed a vacation, which I probably did since I didn’t have a vacation in 15 years.  Again I wasn’t buying it.  I told her I wanted to get rid of it. She said that if you buy into this one there is a clause of Write of First Refusal which I can get a lawyer and get 2/3 of my money back and be out after 3 years.  I decided to try that, so I signed that.  It was a bad week as the was the weekend before our Warren County Antiques Show and I had to repair the fair because of a big storm water surge that bent the garage doors out and other work that week.  When I got to the paperwork, reality set in and I couldn’t afford this and she could be lying (happened before).  So we got the certified letter to cancel the timeshare.  It was 9 days.  We received a letter stating that the timeshare that I just purchased was in Myrtle Beach, SC and that state has only a 7 day termination window.  Congratulations.  [deleted]  And to top it off the Write of First Refusal is for THEIR benefit.

I’m completely devastated.  My youngest son is still in college and I owe $80K for him.  That and the timeshares of $50K all on our home equity loan.  I was planning on retiring when I am 62 but now it will be more like 68.  Realize I work myself on everything.  Car, roof, etc… I usually work because I enjoy it and to save money.  Unfortunately, the two businesses I work don’t make any money.  I do them because my wife loves them.

How can someone do this to me?  This is fraud!  It can't be legal.  Where do I report this fraud?  I tired all the time now.  I fatigue easily.  I don’t eat or sleep well.  My work is going down the tubes.  I talked with friends and they tell me a lawyer won’t help and I’ll get no money for the timeshare so I better use it. Use it?  How?  Even if I did, I’d probably kill or destroy something. I despise Wyndham.  What am I to do?  I don’t know how long I can last.  Please help me.


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## jjmanthei05 (Jun 11, 2012)

I'm not sure about your specific situation but the rescission period is usually which ever is longer between the state you purchased it in and the state the timeshare is located in. You may be able to talk to a lawyer to see if I'm right. They might be able to answer that in free consult. 

Jason


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## Passepartout (Jun 11, 2012)

I am sorry to say that it appears that you own it. You bought it, you waited past the rescission date before attempting rescission. Today, timeshares have little monetary value. Their value is in their use. You can rent the weeks you own to help with the monthly fees, but even that option is unlikely to totally pay the MF.

Your best option is to pay off the TS with as low-interest loan you can muster, then advertise it for sale. NEVER pay an upfront fee for this. Unfortunately, the purchase price you paid is pretty much history. selling it or giving it away will at least relieve you from the ongoing and increasing monthly expense.

Good luck, and we wish you well.

A few years too late, Welcome to TUG. If we'd known at the time, we could have done more to help.

Jim Ricks


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## The Nest (Jun 11, 2012)

jjmanthei05 - I just checked but, unfortunately, the old statement (2008) says 7 days.  I can't believe it.  I believe we were told 9 days.  I got to admit I did not review the paperwork or visit this site.  I'm screwed.  Thanks anyway.

Passepartout - It is a tough pill to swollow. I can't believe the gov't allows this to continue to this degree.  I should have checked the internet or this site.  Thanks for the info and support.  

Tom


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## DeniseM (Jun 11, 2012)

Welcome to TUG -

Unfortunately, it is way too late to pursue this, and the documents you signed stated that ONLY the written contract is binding and not anything you were told verbally.  This clause is standard in the industry, because the sales  people will tell you whatever it takes to make a sale.  The sales departments know that many people will get buyer's remorse, so they hire a lot of smart attorneys to write air-tight contracts to prevent people from getting out of their contracts.  I know that doesn't make you happy - but it's the truth.  As you said, you didn't review the documents - a mistake that many of us made with our first purchases, but that's not grounds to cancel the contract.

At this point your best bet is to:

1)  Finance the remainder of your loan as inexpensively as possible - that is usually a 2nd mortgage or a 0 percent credit card. *I see that the OP is already using a home equity loan.

2)  Pay it off as quickly as possible

3)  Learn how to use your timeshare - just because you haven't been using it doesn't mean you can't - it's a choice.  You are paying for it - you might as well get some enjoyment out of it.

We can help!


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## pacodemountainside (Jun 11, 2012)

As far as daughter inheriting all she has to do is refuse to inherit.

As far as other problems, I think DOC Phil can handle better than this Forum.

Many of us have been scammed on time share purchase but have learned to use and enjoy!


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## ronparise (Jun 11, 2012)

There are other options

I probably missed it, but Im not going back to read your story again, but did you pay cash for this stuff or is it financed?...If you paid cash you can sell it or more likely give it away and let somebody else pay the maintenance fees..The money will be gone, but the fact is its gone already.    If you owe on a mortgage, you can stop paying, and face a foreclosure

Please understand that these are options, not recommendations. You will have to consider the consequences and than do whats best for you and your family

Something else you may consider is telling Wyndham that you wont pay for the second deal, and that they will have to buy it back. I know two people that did this and Wyndham took back their new purchase, as long as they agreed to keep up the old one..


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## Beefnot (Jun 11, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> Welcome to TUG -
> 
> Unfortunately, it is way too late to pursue this, and the documents you signed stated that ONLY the written contract is binding and not anything you were told verbally.  This clause is standard in the industry, because the sales  people will tell you whatever it takes to make a sale.  The sales departments know that many people will get buyer's remorse, so they hire a lot of smart attorneys to write air-tight contracts to prevent people from getting out of their contracts.  I know that doesn't make you happy - but it's the truth.  As you said, you didn't review the documents - a mistake that many of us made with our first purchases, but that's not grounds to cancel the contract.
> 
> ...



Option (4), which is highly unpopular here on TUG, is to walk away. Yeah yeah yadda yadda, I own it, moral thing to do is pay it, will ruin my credit, blah blah.  If I am in that situation, 10 times out of 10 I will walk away.  All that morality guilt crap ain't gonna make college any cheaper or my quality of life any better.


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## DeniseM (Jun 11, 2012)

> I’m completely devastated. My youngest son is still in college and I owe $80K for him. *That and the timeshares of $50K all on our home equity loan.*



I missed this - he already has it financed on a home equity loan - I would NOT default on that!


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## ronparise (Jun 12, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> I missed this - he already has it financed on a home equity loan - I would NOT default on that!



I missed it too, so the situation is bad, but not as bad as I thought it was... Now he can at least give away the timeshares and  save the mf


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## Beefnot (Jun 12, 2012)

Missed that too. I still might look into defaulting on that. That is a subordinated lien. The house is likely upside down so the second lienholder is not going to foreclose.  Although I am not familiar with NJ real estate laws.  But damn, that complicates the decision inordinately. Damn.


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## jjmanthei05 (Jun 12, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> Missed that too. I still might look into defaulting on that. That is a subordinated lien. The house is likely upside down so the second lienholder is not going to foreclose.  Although I am not familiar with NJ real estate laws.  But damn, that complicates the decision inordinately. Damn.




Even if the house is upside down (which I have no info one way or the other) that would still not prevent the line holder from for foreclosing. They may not get all their money but they would probably get some. There is one other small issue with this strategy...it's still your house your risking! Not something you may use a couple times a year. 

Jason


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## JudyS (Jun 12, 2012)

Unfortunately, I don't see any way to get back your purchase price for the two timeshares. If you owed the purchase price to Wyndham, you could walk away (although your credit score would take a big hit), or try to negotiate with them. But, it sounds like you paid the price in full, using a Home Equity Loan. So, Wyndham already has the money.

You could try contacting a lawyer to see if fraud was involved, but I doubt that it was. It sounds like you were given all the proper disclosures, told you had the chance to rescind, etc. As for the promises that the salespeople made to you verbally, from the posts here, I can't even tell what those promises were. I can't understand how the Right of First Refusal was supposed to work. I also don't understand what you are referring to in the first paragraph where you ask how the salesperson can "lie like that." I don't see anything in your first paragraph that sounds like a lie. 

I think it's a mistake to dwell on the financial loss. Millions of people have lost huge amounts of money on real estate in the past few years and you are no worse off than if you bought a house that then dropped in value. The question now is whether you want to use the timeshare, or get rid of it. People on TUG can help you with both options.


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## Beefnot (Jun 13, 2012)

jjmanthei05 said:


> Even if the house is upside down (which I have no info one way or the other) that would still not prevent the line holder from for foreclosing. They may not get all their money but they would probably get some. There is one other small issue with this strategy...it's still your house your risking! Not something you may use a couple times a year.
> 
> Jason



That actually does prevent them from foreclosing in many cases, particularly in hard hit states like California and Nevada, where the house is worth less than what is owed on the first. In that scenario, forcing a foreclosure will ensure that the second lien holder gets nothing, rather than collections or even silently biding time until the house is sold, where the probability of recouping something is greater than zero.


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## JudyS (Jun 13, 2012)

How the Original Poster feels about his timeshares should have no bearing on whether he decides to default on the home equity loan. The $50,000 is gone and it really doesn't matter what it was spent on -- timeshares, medical bills, college tuition, whatever. (The only exception would be if the $50,000 was spent on home improvements, in which case it would probably raise the value of the house, which would affect any decision to abandon the house.)

Defaulting on a home loan is a major, major decision and generally should be reserved for cases where there is no way to pay for the home loan or the home is severely underwater. The Original Poster didn't say anything about being unable to pay his mortgage or having an underwater mortgage. Defaulting on the home equity loan isn't going to "get back" at Wyndham in any way; it will just make the Original Poster lose his home as well as losing the $50,000.

There are some cases where it may make sense to refinance a timeshare loan using a home equity loan. But, there is also a big risk. If you decide to walk away from a timeshare loan, all the timeshare developer can do is ruin your credit (well, they *could* sue you but probably won't.) If you refinance the timeshare loan by using home equity, then walking away will cost you your credit *and *your home.


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## Beefnot (Jun 13, 2012)

You are right at there is no sticking it to Wyndham in this situation. Wyndham has already gotten paid and they ain't giving the money back. If the OP cannot stomach the idea of having to work an extra 6 years to pay off the loan, s/he can consider defaulting on the home equity loan if the house is severely underwater.  After some months (or longer), they may be able to renegotiate terms or settle the debt for a discount as well.  They'd need to discuss with a local attorney.

But walking away from a home equity loan does not necessarily cost you your home, that was my point. It is a lien in a subordinated position with less practical recourse in certain situations.

Either way, the OP has a timeshare that Wyndham is not going to take back unless maybe it gets in the local news and gets picked up nationally. Other than that, just rent it out or learn how to use it.


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## JudyS (Jun 13, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> ...
> But walking away from a home equity loan does not necessarily cost you your home, that was my point. It is a lien in a subordinated position with less practical recourse in certain situations....


I agree that there are some situations where a person might be able to get out of a home equity loan and still keep their house. But it is risky, and it would also mean a big hit to one's credit score. 

My main point is that the Original Poster should not allow his feelings about his timeshares to affect any decisions on his home equity loan. Can we agree on that?


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## The Nest (Jun 13, 2012)

Damn, I could have defaulted?  I guess I shouldn't have paid it off with the home equity so soon.  I would have done that, screw my credit.  Thanks for all your comments.  I'm still reeling on how not once but twice scammed by these people and the cost associated.  I did not "see" what they really were.

Judy S. - It is "different" than investing in a house. If you buy at the wrong time and it goes down, that is unfortunate and unpreventable.  This was totally preventable.  At no time is a timeshare worth what you pay for.  It is the reason why TUG started and I should have looked here way before it happened.  It is just eating at me that I lost so much to a legal SCAM.

But I am not alone in the pain and suffering.  I am astonished at the size of investment and number of the people involved.  Why the hell has this continued to proliferate?  It’s disgusting.

I still can’t sleep well, get nauseous in the morning, fatigued all the time, and angry; but I’m getting better.  I hope my marriage can survive.  For some reason my wife has no qualms about this; it is done, get over it.  For me, it is so HARD.

I’ve decided to make some time and try to enjoy this.  I will try the Smugglers’ Notch in Vermont this October.  I can’t do full weeks but only 5 days.  See if I can get some enjoyment and not the opposite. But the other 3 weeks are toast unless it is true that they said I can “save” them for next year (up to 3 years) since I’m a VIP member now.  I’ll have to read this site to see if that is true and what I should bring, etc… I know one thing, if they even mention Party Weekend or come see this; they are dead!

Finally, I want to thank you all for your comments and support.  The worst part was this feeling of helplessness and disregard that I have never felt before, that there was nowhere to go, until now.  Thanks TUG.

Tom


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## Cheryl20772 (Jun 13, 2012)

The Nest said:


> But I am not alone in the pain and suffering.  I am astonished at the size of investment and number of the people involved.  Why the hell has this continued to proliferate?  It’s disgusting.
> 
> I still can’t sleep well, get nauseous in the morning, fatigued all the time, and angry; but I’m getting better.  I hope my marriage can survive.  For some reason my wife has no qualms about this; it is done, get over it.  For me, it is so HARD.
> 
> ...



Tom,  Welcome to TUG.  Many, Many of us have been where you are.  Please be gentler on yourself.  You just did not know and now you do; so, in my opinion, the kindest thing for you now is to learn how to use your timeshare to the ultimate and stay way from the timeshare sales people.  Don't do an update or sales presentation.  They are not there to help you nor to teach you how to use your points.  All the Wyndham sales representatives want is more of your money.

Please do read all the relevant sections of the forum and read front to back the Wyndham Member's Directory.  The Directory and your contract represent what you own.  Even the directory is not easy to read in some respects.  It's hard to figure out what all the fees might be for different things like using RCI and pooling your points.

You say you have some extra points.  If you want to delay their expiration, RCI is what you need now.  Points that have not started their use year can be pooled before the use year begins.  That costs $39 and I think it's well worth it to do that.  Depositing in RCI only requires a transaction.  You pay fees there when you actually use the points to use an RCI resort.

I still sometimes kick myself over our decision to buy timeshares.  We were taken big time several times.  You are definitely not alone.


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## Beefnot (Jun 14, 2012)

The Nest said:


> Damn, I could have defaulted?  I guess I shouldn't have paid it off with the home equity so soon.  I would have done that, screw my credit.  Thanks for all your comments.  I'm still reeling on how not once but twice scammed by these people and the cost associated.  I did not "see" what they really were.
> 
> Judy S. - It is "different" than investing in a house. If you buy at the wrong time and it goes down, that is unfortunate and unpreventable.  This was totally preventable.  At no time is a timeshare worth what you pay for.  It is the reason why TUG started and I should have looked here way before it happened.  It is just eating at me that I lost so much to a legal SCAM.
> 
> ...



Unfortunate you got put in this situation. But since you are VIP, work it to the best of your ability. Study the TUG Wyndham forum and the separate wyndham owners website. Don't let weeks just burn. If you cannot use them, rent them out here on TUG or other sites. Read the forum stickies.


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## timeos2 (Jun 14, 2012)

Tom - You have now learned the unfortunate but true fact that Wyndham, and most other timeshare sales operations, are lying, cheating scum bags.  They also have a beautiful group of resorts and a good system that helps lull you into buying something for an inflated cost you would never consider without the hoopla, pressure and purposely misleading statements they have honed for years to beat those that try to say no. 

As to why it is allowed to go on there have been plenty of efforts to rein it in yet, despite that, you and thousands of others ignore those protections until they expire and only then really look at what you did 10  or more days ago and how it can be a devastating move in your financial life. That is not meant to say you are (fill in your own term) .... but rather that you were purposely manipulated with the goal of blinding you to a sensible choice to beat the very protections that have been put in place by the regulators.  The game was stacked against you but once (in the sellers perverted view) executed to perfection you are left with a nearly unbreakable purchase as they met the technical rules.

So it is water over the dam now. You paid and you own it and the fees you agreed to even if by accident. Jeopardizing the family home in an effort to undo it is also probably not a wise move now.  So try to find a way to use it. Look into renting to reduce the total bite & take a few needed (it sounds like) breaks from your busy work life.  Other things can change in ways you never expect so grab for it now - don't assume you have what seems like forever.  

Good luck to you and I really hope you can make some great lemonade out of what so far has been a real pile of unused sour lemons for you.  Let the money go - worrying about it will never bring it back.


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## e.bram (Jun 14, 2012)

The OP needs some medication for his depression.


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## jjmanthei05 (Jun 14, 2012)

The Nest said:


> Damn, I could have defaulted?  I guess I shouldn't have paid it off with the home equity so soon.  I would have done that, screw my credit.  Thanks for all your comments.  I'm still reeling on how not once but twice scammed by these people and the cost associated.  I did not "see" what they really were.
> 
> Judy S. - It is "different" than investing in a house. If you buy at the wrong time and it goes down, that is unfortunate and unpreventable.  This was totally preventable.  At no time is a timeshare worth what you pay for.  It is the reason why TUG started and I should have looked here way before it happened.  It is just eating at me that I lost so much to a legal SCAM.
> 
> ...



Tom,

It sounds like for your health and the well being of your family you need to just let it go and use what you have. Read up here and learn everything you can to best maximize your ownership. One point of note. I'm not sure what level VIP you are but if you are at least gold (500,000+) you still have time to pool this years points but it has to be done by the end of the month (if you have january use years). Good luck and let us know how smugglers notch is. 

Jason


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## Passepartout (Jun 14, 2012)

Tom, from reading your first post to the last, it appears you are coming to a healthy realization of the reality of your situation. It's unfortunate, but certainly not unheard-of here. You just had a more severe case of 'screwed-by-design' salesmen, and it took you a little longer to catch on.

Many TUGgers found us under virtually identical circumstances. After hanging around here for a while, drinking in a big dose of TUG Kool-Aid, they learned to make the best of their purchases, enjoyed many great vacations, recovered some money or reduced MF's hit by renting. Most have gone on to buy (resale) more TSs. It's addictive.

Your wife is wise. The money is gone. Get over that. Now move on, study everything in the Wyndham Forum, your owner's manual, the wisdom of fellow TUG Wyndham owners. 

Perhaps there will be a time for you to write a First Person account of how they manipulate buyers to be put in the stickies as a warning of what can possibly happen to the unwary. There are similar accounts and warnings in the Mexico Forum stickies where the tactics are even more predatory than Wyndham's and there are less consumer protections. Still the buyers arrive here almost every week asking for help 'getting out' of what they got into willingly.

All the best.

Jim

The


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## DeniseM (Jun 14, 2012)

Tom - After reading all your posts, it appears that the timeshare is just the tip of the iceberg with your financial problems.  

Owning two businesses that are losing money just because your wife enjoys them (I'm guessing antique related) is the real problem.  Get out of the businesses and let your wife antique as a hobby.    

I think it would be worth your while to sit down with a reputable financial planner and be prepared to make some tough changes.  Even if you get rid of your timeshares, your over all finances are not going to improve on the road you are on.

Good luck!


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## JudyS (Jun 16, 2012)

Cheryl20772 said:


> ...
> You say you have some extra points.  If you want to delay their expiration, RCI is what you need now.  Points that have not started their use year can be pooled before the use year begins.  That costs $39 and I think it's well worth it to do that.  Depositing in RCI only requires a transaction.  You pay fees there when you actually use the points to use an RCI resort....


I think Tom should learn the Wyndham system before trying to use RCI. RCI will add another level of complexity and fees. From what others are posting here, he may be able to save his points within the Wyndham system. Also, since Tom doesn't have much vacation time, he may be better off renting his weeks out  than depositing them into RCI. Once they are deposited into RCI, he can't rent them. 

Tom, if you plan to keep your timeshares, you may want to learn how to rent them out. 



The Nest said:


> ....
> Judy S. - It is "different" than investing in a house. If you buy at the wrong time and it goes down, that is unfortunate and unpreventable.  This was totally preventable.  At no time is a timeshare worth what you pay for.  It is the reason why TUG started and I should have looked here way before it happened.  It is just eating at me that I lost so much to a legal SCAM....


My point was that millions of Americans have lost lots of money lately, so you aren't alone. I'm not saying a timeshare is as valuable a purchase as a home or anything like that. 

I disagree with the idea that timeshares are a scam, though. There are many happy timeshare owners here. Some timeshares are way overpriced, yes, but that is true of many other things as well.


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