# The Logic of My Mind: Masks



## Panina (May 2, 2020)

This has bothered me since the start of this virus.

I constantly hear and read that wearing a mask doesn’t protect me  but protects others  from me if I am sick.

It just doesn’t  logically make sense to me.  The logic in my mind thinks if the infected person is not wearing a mask and if I am wearing a mask I have more protection then not wearing one at all.

After all, surgical masks and 95s  have been worn  in the health care industry to prevent the spread of various infections.  It doesn’t make sense to me  that masks are important for health care workers but not useful for the public.

My brain tells me if everyone wore  a mask, it can reduce the transmission and we would all be safer. Do I have a study to prove it, no, just the logic of my brain.

Maybe I am right, maybe I am wrong.  Meanwhile I will go about doing what I need to and keep wearing my mask.


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## plpgma (May 2, 2020)

As I understand, by wearing the mask we are helping to prevent the moisture vapor we exhale from getting into the general atmosphere around our personal space -- thereby helping to prevent exposure of our exhaled vapor to those around us (and, by extension, also arresting the corona virus which may be attached to our exhaled vapor).  While not 100% secure, there are studies which show that the risk of spreading the virus is reduced by wearing the mask.


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## "Roger" (May 2, 2020)

As far as I can tell, you are kinda right. The main benefit is to protect others. You are not spewing out droplets that hit others.

As far as protecting others, the masks worn in the health care industry are a completely different ball game from the homemade masks that the rest of us are wearing. Even then, to be effective, the surgical masks need to be changed frequently. However, someone posted an article here on this board (don't know where) which cited a study that showed that the lower your exposure to coVid-19, the better chance your immune system has at getting a jump on the virus and winning out. So, when you wear a homemade mask, you will not completely avoid exposure from someone who is infected, but you well might reduce the degree of exposure and have a better chance of not having a serious case of coVid-19 (presuming that article was correct). Let me add that when you are wearing a mask, you are (or, at least I am) much less likely to touch your face.

That is my best shot at answering your question. I cannot swear that it is absolutely correct, but what I am going by.


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## plpgma (May 2, 2020)

Sorry -- I know that your question wasn't meant to be a lead-in to funny responses -- but this comic from the Humor thread just seems to answer it so well!


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## jme (May 2, 2020)

It protects both ways.... It's a fact, nothing more to be said, except WEAR THEM as advised.

(And as for this assessment, I'm speaking as Dr. jme)


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## Panina (May 2, 2020)

plpgma said:


> Sorry -- I know that your question wasn't meant to be a lead-in to funny responses -- but this comic from the Humor thread just seems to answer it so well!
> 
> View attachment 19974


Humor is good.  Actually a way to explain the obvious.


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## sue1947 (May 2, 2020)

It's a matter of percentages.  The homemade masks have a protective value that is pretty low and varies by the type of material used, how it fits etc.  Most provide well under 50% protection and more like 20%.  So the protective value for YOU is pretty low.  However, the protective value to Others is in keeping those large droplets out of the air.  We don't know who has it, especially those that are asymptomatic, so if everybody wears one, we are better off.  
Sue


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## presley (May 2, 2020)

I'm so disappointed with my city right now. The county issued a mandatory "when you leave your place, cover your face" rule beginning May 1, yesterday. I did see that most people weren't following this yesterday, but figured today would be different, especially with a farmer's market in the street. I probably passed 80 people this morning. 6 were covering their faces with a mask, one had her chin covered with a face mask (not her mouth or nose) and one carried a mask in her hand. The rest of the people didn't have a mask attached to them at all. That's bad enough, but then many of them say "hello" as they pass by, spewing their saliva vapor on me and my bandana. I just feel like most of the people are too entitled to be concerned with others. When I got home from the walk, I told my husband that I am done with the entitled people around here. I want to move out of the area.


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## Panina (May 2, 2020)

presley said:


> I'm so disappointed with my city right now. The county issued a mandatory "when you leave your place, cover your face" rule beginning May 1, yesterday. I did see that most people weren't following this yesterday, but figured today would be different, especially with a farmer's market in the street. I probably passed 80 people this morning. 6 were covering their faces with a mask, one had her chin covered with a face mask (not her mouth or nose) and one carried a mask in her hand. The rest of the people didn't have a mask attached to them at all. That's bad enough, but then many of them say "hello" as they pass by, spewing their saliva vapor on me and my bandana. I just feel like most of the people are too entitled to be concerned with others. When I got home from the walk, I told my husband that I am done with the entitled people around here. I want to move out of the area.


We do not have mandatory masks in our state SC.  Since phase 1 started I see most are not wearing them, lots of NC plates and they are lax with distance too.  Mind boggling to me.  It seems the numbers will need to rise again for others to realize the inconvenience of wearing them is beneficial.

Interestedly my other half did a grocery stop yesterday in NC where they are not in phase 1 and have more cases. He said almost everyone had a mask on.

Seems the NC people shopping in SC and SC people have a false sense of security due to the lower cases.


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## DrQ (May 2, 2020)

Here is the mask I ordered to go over my surgical/dental mask





It is NSW but you anime fans out there may recognize the character.


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## pittle (May 2, 2020)

The new system does not seem logical to me either.   It used to be that people who were infected were put into Quarantine, not everyone.

Masks are not mandatory in AZ, so I have not worn one when I go to the grocery.  I do not go when they first open up and if there are people standing outside waiting to go in, I just go home.  I do not need anything bad enough to stand  in line when it is 90+ at 10:00.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 2, 2020)

Wearing masks outside wasn't advised, was it?  Fresh air is good for you.  Breathe it in.  I don't get the mandatory mask requirement.  If you want to wear one, go ahead.  I wore mine at Walmart yesterday, but I am not wearing it outside.  That has to be a mistake.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (May 2, 2020)

Shrug. . . I wear a_ serious_ mask. HEPA filtration - same as i use for spraying fungicides. . .

( I sound like Darth Vader when I'm out with it.)


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## TravelTime (May 2, 2020)

In Placer County, California, where I live right now, masks are recommended but not mandatory. When I go out, I’d say about half the people wear them. We wear a mask to be respectful of others. Personally, my mind does not have any logic and I am not sure if a mask works or not. So I wear it because I have been told it is the best practice. Plus my DH makes me wear a mask.


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## DancingWaters (May 2, 2020)

I agree that logically is makes sense that the mask works both ways. To begin with they were telling us not to wear a mask, but in the end we find out they wanted to masks for the front line people.  Now they want us to wear them, but not the N95 again so the frontline people can have them.  It germs can’t get in then, Germs can’t get out!


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## jackio (May 2, 2020)

In NY, masks are mandatory in public areas _where social distancing is not possible._  So if I am walking around the neighborhood, I do not wear one.  I must wear one when I go to the store.  When I do a driveway visit with my grandchildren, we stay 6 feet apart and do not wear masks.


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## isisdave (May 2, 2020)

Also, my mask definitely keeps me from touching most of my face.


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## Panina (May 2, 2020)

Today I went for a curbside grocery pickup.  It was quick, while waiting counted 21 people that walked in or out of the grocery, only 3 were wearing a mask.  I ask myself  what don’t they understand?


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## Luanne (May 2, 2020)

Panina said:


> Today I went for a curbside grocery pickup.  It was quick, while waiting counted 21 people that walked in or out of the grocery, only 3 were wearing a mask.  I ask myself  what don’t they understand?


I think their thought process is:

I'm not sick I don't need a mask.

It won't happen to me.


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## Brett (May 2, 2020)

Luanne said:


> I think their thought process is:
> 
> I'm not sick I don't need a mask.
> 
> It won't happen to me.



yeah ...  I walked into a grocery store w/o a mask -  no COVID 19  so far ....


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## Luanne (May 2, 2020)

Brett said:


> yeah ...  I walked into a grocery store w/o a mask -  no COVID 19  so far ....


And I bet you feel proud of yourself.  I'm sure the grocery workers and everyone you came in contact with thanks you.


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## Passepartout (May 2, 2020)

We will continue to see those who will say 'this doesn't apply to ME' until someone close to them becomes seriously ill and can't remember where they might have been exposed. I miss the social interaction too. And maybe virtually everyone will eventually be infected with this virus, and the vast majority will recover. But not all. And my wife and I have multiple risk factors that would make our recovery iffy at best. The longer we can hold it at bay, the better chance of an effective treatment.  So you'll be seeing us out with masks, washing hands, avoiding others. There is no guarantee, but we'll try to stack the deck in our favor as long as we can.

Jim


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## Panina (May 2, 2020)

Passepartout said:


> We will continue to see those who will say 'this doesn't apply to ME' until someone close to them becomes seriously ill and can't remember where they might have been exposed. I miss the social interaction too. And maybe virtually everyone will eventually be infected with this virus, and the vast majority will recover. But not all. And my wife and I have multiple risk factors that would make our recovery iffy at best. The longer we can hold it at bay, the better chance of an effective treatment.  So you'll be seeing us out with masks, washing hands, avoiding others. There is no guarantee, but we'll try to stack the deck in our favor as long as we can.
> 
> Jim


Taking the best precautions you can is best.  I wear my mask to protect myself and others.  I would never want to give it to someone else and cause them harm.  The bottom line is anyone can be asymptomatic and give it to someone that might not survive if they got it.


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## slip (May 2, 2020)

I haven’t talked too much about the virus but I really think the benefits to wearing the masks/face coverings are being over stated  here. The social distancing is way more important. Walking by someone is an extremely low risk activity. Being within a few feet of someone and grabbing a can of corn and then walking away is again extremely low risk, mask or no mask.

If you are a high risk person by all means wear a mask or better yet stay home. I wear a mask here because they are mandatory. As soon as they are not, I will not be wearing one.


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## Krteczech (May 2, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Wearing masks outside wasn't advised, was it?  Fresh air is good for you.  Breathe it in.  I don't get the mandatory mask requirement.  If you want to wear one, go ahead.  I wore mine at Walmart yesterday, but I am not wearing it outside.  That has to be a mistake.


Estes Park, CO has an ordinace effective today face masks are mandatory in town business zone (basically main street) and at all stores and establishments for all residents and visitors.


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## Cornell (May 2, 2020)

I have a question for the mask knowledgeable people out there (I'm admittedly clueless about this topic).  If masks work, why can't we open up places like salons?  Or offices   ?  And require all persons in those settings to wear them .


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## Luanne (May 2, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I have a question for the mask knowledgeable people out there (I'm admittedly clueless about this topic).  If masks work, why can't we open up places like salons?  Or offices   ?  And require all persons in those settings to wear them .


When those businesses open up I'm sure everyone will be required to wear masks.  I read an article today from a salon in Georgia, where they just have opened up salons, talking about the precautions they are taking.  None of those businesses want to put anyone in jeopardy.


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## Luanne (May 3, 2020)

I did not write this but it expresses how I feel.


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## slip (May 3, 2020)

Luanne said:


> View attachment 20019
> 
> I did not write this but it expresses how I feel.



I just don’t like these because of what it assumes of people that don’t see masks/face coverings as being affective. If I don’t wear one in an area that isn’t mandatory to wear them, I don’t assume that people that do are scared or that the government controls them. It also implies that I am not educated about the virus and that I am inconsiderate. All couldn’t be further from the truth.


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## Panina (May 3, 2020)

I think of it very simply.  

If I am indoors, such as a store, doctors office, etc.,  I wear a mask.  Outdoors, such as taking a walk, in my yard, etc.  where I can definitely keep social distance I don’t.


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## Panina (May 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I have a question for the mask knowledgeable people out there (I'm admittedly clueless about this topic).  If masks work, why can't we open up places like salons?  Or offices   ?  And require all persons in those settings to wear them .


There are so many articles on the topic with different opinions but from my readings  the masks that most agree on and seem to help the most are the n95, used correctly, that the general public can’t get because of the shortage and because they are needed  for the frontline.  Where nothing, including a mask, works 100%  they are believed to slow the spread.  Other types of masks are not as good as they have easier access for particles but still help but at a lower %. I have also read they work best with a combination of social distancing and washing hands often.

I think a good question for the professionals that I never heard or read is, if everyone had a n95 would it be safer to open up places like salons and offices?   I question how many people could wear a n95 all day, much harder to breathe with then a clothe or paper mask.


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## Sugarcubesea (May 3, 2020)

In MI:  Governor Gretchen Whitmer's "Stay Home, Stay Safe" executive order extension issued last week is now in effect, mandating masks in every enclosed public space as long as people can medically tolerate to wear one.

I got a cloth one and after shopping when I got in the car yesterday, I was so overheated, I took off my mask and had to stay in the parked in the parking lot of TJ's for about an hour just to not feel dizzy... Has anyone else gotten overheated being in your masks?  I feel like an old lady getting this overheated being in a mask


I was able to purchase some disposable masks and I hope those get to me soon from CA.


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## Sugarcubesea (May 3, 2020)

Luanne said:


> When those businesses open up I'm sure everyone will be required to wear masks.  I read an article today from a salon in Georgia, where they just have opened up salons, talking about the precautions they are taking.  None of those businesses want to put anyone in jeopardy.



My company has put me in charge of securing all of these supplies, masks, non touch thermometer, nitrile gloves, hand sanitizer, etc.  This stuff is so difficult to come by in large quantities. The President of my company is driving me nuts as he wants me to buy in large quantities for a 30 day supply, there are not places out there selling 3,000 disposable masks...ugh


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## mdurette (May 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I have a question for the mask knowledgeable people out there (I'm admittedly clueless about this topic).  If masks work, why can't we open up places like salons?  Or offices   ?  And require all persons in those settings to wear them .



I would assume it could be the time frame.    Let's take grocery shopping, your interaction time with anyone up and down the isles is probably les than a minute, little risk that during the moment one of the people involved will cough, sneeze, etc.     Maybe up to 5 minutes in a check out line.     At a salon, the exposure of two people side by side is much longer, which would cause a higher likelihood of transmission.    Just my guess, certainly no expert.


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## geist1223 (May 3, 2020)

Way back in January (before all the hype started) when we started reading about all this stuff to prepare for our trip to Tasmania and Melbourne this is the basics we discovered:
1. The Surgical Type Masks worn in the Hospital/Doctor setting are designed to primarily protect the Patient from the Medical Providers. In fact all the stuff (gowns, etc) worn in the Surgical Rooms is to protect the patient.
2. There are N95 Masks and N95 Respirator. They are designed to protect the wearer. N95 Respirator are better.
3. Because of the way the air valve is designed in the N95 Respirator it may allow the virus into the air.
4. We bought a Box of N95 Respirator we took on our trip. Never used them but we are wearing them now.
5. While it is best to use the N95 only one time. If you hang in a warm dry place for 3 days after use it is most likely safe for reuse.


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## Tank (May 3, 2020)

No buddy likes this, and yes ,we all have rights. 
The F-you attitude is going to get someone killed. 
If you give a inch , they take a yard. 

It’s all about respect , I’m a rule follower so I do what is asked. I’m not going to lie while I’m protecting others it’s sure pissing me off that others are not protecting me, if someone’s going to get sick I hope it’s the one with the least respect. 

The lack of masks / protection to our first responders in our area in Ohio is what bothers me most. Normal protocol has been thrown out the window do to shortfalls of supplies. 
confidence  is down thus weakening the immune system. 
  Sterilized masks , that’s just gross,  I would not have a problem wearing my own sterilized mask, I do not want to wear someone else’s , has to have slobber , sweet , and who knows what else  on them. Yet better than nothing they are told. 

Just give me respect , I’ll give you respect, and we will get over this mess. 

Dave


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## queenofthehive (May 3, 2020)

Tank said:


> No buddy likes this, and yes ,we all have rights.
> The F-you attitude is going to get someone killed.
> If you give a inch , they take a yard.
> 
> ...


I couldn’t agree more. It is the blatant disregard for anyone else. The “me first” selfish attitude that is getting old really fast.


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## Panina (May 3, 2020)

Sugarcubesea said:


> In MI:  Governor Gretchen Whitmer's "Stay Home, Stay Safe" executive order extension issued last week is now in effect, mandating masks in every enclosed public space as long as people can medically tolerate to wear one.
> 
> I got a cloth one and after shopping when I got in the car yesterday, I was so overheated, I took off my mask and had to stay in the parked in the parking lot of TJ's for about an hour just to not feel dizzy... Has anyone else gotten overheated being in your masks?  I feel like an old lady getting this overheated being in a mask
> 
> ...


Sounds like you had a lack of oxygen or your body is overheating.

I find I have to take deep breathes at times when wearing a mask. Also if your prone to panic attacks you might unconsciously be having one.

I find pulling my hair back and wearing light clothing I do better and don’t overheat. I also drink water before I wear one and as soon as I get back in the car.


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## WinniWoman (May 3, 2020)

Panina said:


> This has bothered me since the start of this virus.
> 
> I constantly hear and read that wearing a mask doesn’t protect me  but protects others  from me if I am sick.
> 
> ...




Panina- I have been saying this and I thought maybe my brain didn't work right. LOL!


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## presley (May 3, 2020)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I got a cloth one and after shopping when I got in the car yesterday, I was so overheated, I took off my mask and had to stay in the parked in the parking lot of TJ's for about an hour just to not feel dizzy... Has anyone else gotten overheated being in your masks? I feel like an old lady getting this overheated being in a mask


I haven't become dizzy, but very hot, yes. I have found that I feel better in a bandana. It still allows some fresh air in, which helps me stay cooler when I am walking around out in the sun or running errands. The laws might be different where you are regarding what type of mask to use, but here the rule is to just keep a face covering on. It doesn't have to be a medical mask.


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## WinniWoman (May 3, 2020)

I never wear a mask outdoors but then again I am not in an urban area shoulder to shoulder with people, though people do get close to me sometimes, especially in our walking group. I have to constantly adjust my distance as people start talking and moving in closer and closer.

This whole thing is crazy.


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## WinniWoman (May 3, 2020)

Panina said:


> Sounds like you had a lack of oxygen or your body is overheating.
> 
> I find I have to take deep breathes at times when wearing a mask. Also if your prone to panic attacks you might unconsciously be having one.
> 
> I find pulling my hair back and wearing light clothing I do better and don’t overheat. I also drink water before I wear one and as soon as I get back in the car.



I hate the masks. They make me cough. I have been wearing the same surgical mask for a few weeks when I go into a store. Even my husband wore it once, though he avoid going into a store because I think he doesn't want to wear one.

I gave up wearing the gloves.


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## WinniWoman (May 3, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I have a question for the mask knowledgeable people out there (I'm admittedly clueless about this topic).  If masks work, why can't we open up places like salons?  Or offices   ?  And require all persons in those settings to wear them .



NH opened up salons, but with a lot of restrictions- many which don't make sense to me, but supposedly the businesses on his task force had input into what he opened and did not open so far.

Ex: For salons, if they decide to open a reservation has to be made for each customer and they can only do cuts and touch up color. Nothing else. Only so many people inside at once- I think it was 10 and that includes the employees.


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## Panina (May 3, 2020)

Really? Yep









						Oklahoma city amends coronavirus mask order following physical confrontations after reopening
					

A city in Oklahoma has lifted a coronavirus mask requirement following reports of physical confrontations — and a threat of violence involving a gun -- at reopened stores and restaurants.




					www.foxnews.com


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## rickandcindy23 (May 3, 2020)

Disney is selling masks.  I am going to buy some of them for us.  I don't think they are as good as the N-95 masks, but maybe not as sweaty on my face. 





__





						Disney Face Masks for Kids & Adults | shopDisney
					

Disney non-medical, reusable cloth face masks. Featuring your favorite Disney, Pixar, Marvel & Star Wars face masks.




					www.shopdisney.com


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## Sugarcubesea (May 3, 2020)

presley said:


> I haven't become dizzy, but very hot, yes. I have found that I feel better in a bandana. It still allows some fresh air in, which helps me stay cooler when I am walking around out in the sun or running errands. The laws might be different where you are regarding what type of mask to use, but here the rule is to just keep a face covering on. It doesn't have to be a medical mask.


Thanks, I’m going to try and find a bandana.   I probably should have waited till I got in TJ’s before I put it on.  I had to wait in line outside for over an hour to get in.  Then 20 minutes of shopping.


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## Kel (May 3, 2020)

My husband and I really like that a lot of people are wearing masks in public and it makes sense to us. I am retired and my husband is a semi-retired general contractor and we are in a fortunate situation that we can stay at home. My husband had a few N95 masks on a shelf in the garage. When we go out to stores we wear the N95 masks. We also have a small supply of surgical masks in our first aid kit and travel bags. Before the pandemic we would occasionally wear a surgical mask while traveling on airplanes if we felt like we were a little sick or someone next to us was sick. Again it makes sense. We will probably wear masks on airplanes and public transportation from now on (required or not). We’ll see.

And, we have what we call the “triage table” in the garage for items before bringing them into the house. Triage may not be the correct terminology- but that’s what we call it. We sanitize everything before it comes into the house or goes into the refrigerator. Stay healthy to everyone and especially to those who are out there working.  Thank you!


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## Brett (May 4, 2020)

Masks Become a Flash Point in the Virus Culture Wars

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/03/...tion=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage


wearing or not wearing a face mask has become a personal statement and sometimes a political one

"The decision not to wear a mask has, for some, become a rebellion against what they regard as an incursion on their personal liberties. For many others, the choice is a casual one more about convenience than politics. The choice can also be a reflection of vanity, or of not understanding when or where to wear one. Some people said they found masks uncomfortable, and thus a nuisance they were unwilling to tolerate. Others were skeptical how much difference they made outside on a sunny day."


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## DrQ (May 4, 2020)

This has to be a prank:








						Covidiot cuts hole in her face mask to 'make it easier to breathe'
					

Joe Samaan was working his shift at an S J Food Mart in Lexington, Kentucky, when a customer came in wearing a face mask cut open over the mouth.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				




If not:

The employer is identified
He is not wearing PPE
He is making fun of a customer

If I were his employer, it would be a resume generating event.


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## Cornell (May 4, 2020)

Brett said:


> Masks Become a Flash Point in the Virus Culture Wars
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/03/us/coronavirus-masks-protests.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting this.  The phenomenon is something I absolutely see in "my world" (masks as a cultural divide). It's a very polarizing topic.

When I say "my world" -- Im referring to Illinois where I live.  The whole mask topic has become very sensitive ever since it was mandated that we wear one starting last week.


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## Paumavista (May 4, 2020)

I think sometimes we should do things because experts, scientists, and those with more knowledge than I, say that it's a good thing.  I believe in science.  I do it because I've been told it "might" help; because I care; because I want to be considerate, because maybe it makes YOU feel more comfortable when I wear it.  Because it isn't that hard and it could make a big difference for someone (I probably won't ever know); because doctors and nurses ask that we do. Those on the front lines have asked (those who sacrifice a lot more than I am)....because they think it's the right thing; perhaps one of the most helpful things... it is the least I can do (I will stay home as much as possible & when I go out around people I will wear a mask).  This isn't about "ME"!


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## Quilter (May 4, 2020)

If you feel like wading through another response here’s a post from my doctor’s blog.  There’s more info in the comments.  One person cites a study from Texas A&M for comparison materials in making your own mask.  https://www.drbrownstein.com/we-must-wear-face-masks-show-me-the-science-behind-that/


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## isisdave (May 4, 2020)

Well that was strange. Dr Brownstein spends several paragraphs telling why he thinks masks are pointless, and then he says:

*Should you wear a mask?* _If you are coughing or sick, my answer is yes. _ 

And the point here is that it has been shown that many people who are infected with the virus have no symptoms, yet can still transmit it when they propel it out of their nose or mouth by sneezing, coughing, or even breathing hard (as in when running or exercising). So the bottom line is that we cannot tell if we are sick or not, so should do the socially considerate thing and wear a mask.

1. How hard is that, anyway?
2. Did I miss something in his article?


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## Tank (May 4, 2020)

So it begins, I said a long time ago it’s going to get ugly. 









						Guard, father of 8, killed in dispute over customer not wearing mask
					

A guard at a Flint dollar store was shot and killed after an argument over a customer’s need to wear a mask. The murder happened on Friday at a Family Dollar store on 5th Avenue in Flint. Gen…




					www.wlns.com


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## MrockStar (May 4, 2020)

isisdave said:


> Well that was strange. Dr Brownstein spends several paragraphs telling why he thinks masks are pointless, and then he says:
> 
> *Should you wear a mask?* _If you are coughing or sick, my answer is yes. _
> 
> ...


It cant hurt and makes other feel safer, so its a good idea no matter what.


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## Panina (May 4, 2020)

See how a mask affects how a cough travels








						See how a mask affects how a cough travels  | CNN
					

A lab at Florida Atlantic University is simulating a human cough to understand how far and fast cough droplets can spread.




					www.cnn.com


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## BJRSanDiego (May 5, 2020)

When I go shopping (once every 2 weeks for essentials), I wear an N95 from my workshop.  Yes, they can very easily be cleaned and re-used multiple times.  

But I can see why a lot of people are confused about masks given some of the contradictory info out there:
1.  Don't wear a mask because they don't protect you, although they may keep you from touching your face and will definitely make it hard to pick your nose.  
2.  You MUST wear a mask in public or you may be fined or imprisoned.  The implication is that there apparently is a big medical value to you wearing a mask.
3.  Businesses cannot open even if people wear masks.  So, even if customers and employees are wearing masks, the implication is that they cannot be relied upon to work.  Or that they may help, but perhaps that isn't the reason for allowing the business to reopen.  
4.  Masks (actually "respirator" mask) are essential PPE for healthcare people.  The inference is that they definitely protect and they work.

But, I'm not trying to convince people to wear anything or avoid wearing anything.  I know that I am NOT going to change anyone's opinion.  But tomorrow I'm going shopping and will wear my used N95, nitrile gloves and eye goggles (my wife and I are in a high-risk group).  I would like to see restrictions be eased and more businesses open up.  But I may continue to "suit up" when I go out.


----------



## Quilter (May 5, 2020)

isisdave said:


> Well that was strange. Dr Brownstein spends several paragraphs telling why he thinks masks are pointless, and then he says:
> 
> *Should you wear a mask?* _If you are coughing or sick, my answer is yes. _
> 
> ...



After watching the demonstration in Panina’s post reread Dr. B’s post. You’ll see he is questioning the efficacy of a mandate behind wearing masks if you do not have an active cough.

His example of the people he watched in Costco are the same as I’ve seen in public, namely the masks encourage people to have their hands all over these dirty masks as they adjust to something unfamiliar. The video in Panina’s post also shows the sides of the masks being dirty with germs as particles escape. Think about the person who keeps their mask in the car to reuse as they go from public space to public space. The last thing they do before exiting the car is touch a dirty mask. Then they have an unfounded notion they are clean and compliant as they go about touching things and spreading germs. He cites a flu study that this behaviour actually increased the spread by 13x.

Does the mandate actually stop the spread or does it increase the spread? Is it proven to be so effective to warrant a mandate? His blog post is a question. He’s a doctor trying to get through this the same as you and me. Look at his responses. He dialogs with the commenters without malice or narrow mindedness.

He and the other doctors in his practice are treating patients the best ways they have found by supporting the host to get through the illness.


----------



## Panina (May 5, 2020)

Quilter said:


> After watching the demonstration in Panina’s post reread Dr. B’s post. You’ll see he is questioning the efficacy of a mandate behind wearing masks if you do not have an active cough.
> 
> His example of the people he watched in Costco are the same as I’ve seen in public, namely the masks encourage people to have their hands all over these dirty masks as they adjust to something unfamiliar. The video in Panina’s post also shows the sides of the masks being dirty with germs as particles escape. Think about the person who keeps their mask in the car to reuse as they go from public space to public space. The last thing they do before exiting the car is touch a dirty mask. Then they have an unfounded notion they are clean and compliant as they go about touching things and spreading germs. He cites a flu study that this behaviour actually increased the spread by 13x.
> 
> ...


Like anything else it is educating the public how to use something properly, that should be the goal to educate the public how to use the masks properly and how to handle them after wearing one.

Your question “Does the mandate actually stop the spread or does it increase the spread? Is it proven to be so effective to warrant a mandate?”.  I ask is it proven to not be effective ?  With particles spreading so far without it, that is proven, I still believe I am safer if someone a few feet from me sneezes, has the virus, and is wearing a mask.


----------



## Panina (May 5, 2020)

Interesting new mask technology








						Israeli masks designed with unique anti-pathogen fabric enter US market
					

“When coronavirus started we were an Israeli startup,” Dr. Jason Migdal. “Now, we are a commercial business."




					www.jpost.com


----------



## TravelTime (May 5, 2020)

I was waiting for this. Masks are now a fashion statement. 

———

*Masks are here to stay. And they’re quickly becoming a way to express ourselves.*

Soon, however, function met form. That same month, the CDC changed course and advised everyone to wear a mask in public. The fashion industry fully committed to the effort. If a shopper goes to Etsy, there are — at last count — 250 pages of colorful, patterned nonmedical masks to click through. Neighborhood blogs are filled with offers from home sewers willing to stitch up distinctive masks for locals. There are masks for every taste and budget. Some are printed with Edvard Munch-like open-mouthed screams. Goth masks mimic skeletal jaws. Disney is offering a preorder on four-packs of masks featuring its signature characters. High-end versions are constructed from fine Italian fabrics that really should be hand-washed rather than thrown into the Maytag. Others are covered in sequins. Some masks look to be so dense that they’d impede breathing; nonetheless, they’re stunning.Almost all of them come with a promise of a charitable donation or a reassurance that no one is profiting . . . too much.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/masks-fashion-style-designs/2020/05/04/6a1b77a6-8a2c-11ea-ac8a-fe9b8088e101_story.html


----------



## Quilter (May 5, 2020)

Panina said:


> Like anything else it is educating the public how to use something properly, that should be the goal to educate the public how to use the masks properly and how to handle them after wearing one.
> 
> Your question “Does the mandate actually stop the spread or does it increase the spread? Is it proven to be so effective to warrant a mandate?”.  I ask is it proven to not be effective ?  With particles spreading so far without it, that is proven, I still believe I am safer if someone a few feet from me sneezes, has the virus, and is wearing a mask.



The point to my posts is to expand the picture.   Like your post with the video.   It expanded the picture.   It was educational.

From the information here we see masks aren't a magic bullet.   You can be standing next to a masked sneezer who doesn't have Covid while you are holding a box of Cheerios touched by someone sick who fiddled with their mask.   Especially if you're also fiddling with your mask.   Therefore, the sense of security is false.

Do I think people should wear masks?   I'm not getting into that because what I think isn't the appropriate education.   In fact, any post that begins "I think" is a good one for me to skip.   JMO.    I'd rather keep gathering info to add to my thinking as I go through this pandemic.

You want masks because you are concerned surviving the pandemic. 

For those who are concerned about surviving this or other viruses here are more things to consider educational.   Various strains of flu are already with us.   More viruses are on the way.   Is it just as responsible to educate in building immunity so shut downs don't have to be mandatory?





__





						PODCASTS - Turn Into Wellness - Frank Lipman MD
					

Tune into Wellness is a weekly podcast hosted by Dr. Frank Lipman. His guests are experts in health and wellness.




					drfranklipman.com
				












						The Doctor's Farmacy with Dr. Aseem Malhotra
					

I’m joined by Dr. Aseem Malhotra to talk about the impact COVID-19 is having on the UK, the risks that metabolic diseases pose with the virus, and more.




					drhyman.com


----------



## Panina (May 5, 2020)

Quilter said:


> The point to my posts is to expand the picture.   Like your post with the video.   It expanded the picture.   It was educational.
> 
> From the information here we see masks aren't a magic bullet.   You can be standing next to a masked sneezer who doesn't have Covid while you are holding a box of Cheerios touched by someone sick who fiddled with their mask.   Especially if you're also fiddling with your mask.   Therefore, the sense of security is false.
> 
> ...


All you posts might not say “I think” but your educational posts give an opinion.  All our posts and most links are opinions as we are just in the beginning stages to understanding this virus.  Other viruses and flus at this point seem to be very different how it affects the world as a whole.  

To say what I want is your opinion in a simplistic form.  You stated  “You want masks because you are concerned surviving the pandemic.”   It is so much more.  It is only one tool in a toolbox of various things that are thought to help.  I will not go into them all as I have stated them in other posts.  I look at society as a whole and it is not just about me.

As far as you Cheerio example that is part of educating people.  I assume everything I touch outside my home can be infected and I act accordingly.


----------



## Panina (May 5, 2020)

Coronavirus: Why is there a US backlash to masks? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52540015


----------



## WinniWoman (May 5, 2020)

A friend of mine sent us 2 cloth masks she made. We used them today when we went into an old country store here. Both of us had fogged up glasses and it made us get hot and was so hard to breathe and enjoy perusing around the store for purchases. My husband had to go outside and wait for me. (Heck- he even used the porta potty outside- which I told him not to, but he is having issues in that "department" lately if you know what I mean- and he couldn't wait until he got home. The surgical masks are much more comfortable, though I cough with those.

The cashier wanted to know if I wanted a glove as she handed me my credit card and receipt. I said no. It's ridiculous- I have to wipe it any way and put it in my wallet. In the store I had to touch some things to see if I wanted them or not. I can't clean them or my hands or the gloves each time! How does that work?

I don't do gloves any more. I figure I have to wash or wipe my hands any way so I don't bother unless I have a cut on my hand or something. When we took the masks off we just threw them on the dash board in the sun as we drove home.No I did not wipe down the dashboard. My husband initially just pulled his off and stuffed it into his pocket. LOL! He can't deal with these new habits understandably. It is neurosis to the max!

We didn't have to wear masks inside but just did so as a courtesy to others so they do not freak out, otherwise we wouldn't.

The whole thing is a big pain in the ars8(&s. So is cleaning down everything when you get in the car and at home. I can't keep up and I am just about done with it now. Whatever happens to me happens to me. I am going to enjoy whatever I can and I am careful but not obsessive with this and not worrying about it.


----------



## missmarie (May 5, 2020)

I wear a mask, and wish everyone would. I'm a nurse, and have read so many studies on the efficacy of masks, and it is still better than nothing. Washing hands is still the #1 thing that you must do. Here is why I encourage masks:  Currently, my local hospitals are not allowing visitors. Patients in the hospital, who are actively dying, get restrictions like 1 visitor, for 1 hour. I have seen patients that have been admitted 9 weeks ago, and haven't had visitors in the last 7 of those weeks. When they are actually dying, like I said, maybe 1 or 2 people. They better hope they time it perfectly so the death occurs in that 1, or 2 hour window.  It's tragic.  Now we are reading reports of possible Covid inflammatory reactions in children. Is that enough to make you participate in cutting our losses? Maybe it's media hype, maybe the masks are like another poster stated 20-50% effective. I don't know, but I will do whatever I can to make this go away. We can argue back & forth forever, but the reality is, the CDC has waffled on the masks from the beginning (most nurses I work with no longer trust them), and the bottom line is we are responsible to our communities, not just ourselves, and our desires for "freedom". The only study I read that said that masks were possibly more harm than good, was one that basically said, not effective if you did not use it correctly. If essentials are risking their lives for this thing, wearing a mask is the least you can do. Walking outside , where you can distance, most likely overkill, but in close spaces like stores? Come on


----------



## Panina (May 5, 2020)

WinniWoman said:


> A friend of mine sent us 2 cloth masks she made. We used them today when we went into an old country store here. Both of us had fogged up glasses and it made us get hot and was so hard to breathe and enjoy perusing around the store for purchases. My husband had to go outside and wait for me. (Heck- he even used the porta potty outside- which I told him not to, but he is having issues in that "department" lately if you know what I mean- and he couldn't wait until he got home. The surgical masks are much more comfortable, though I cough with those.
> 
> The cashier wanted to know if I wanted a glove as she handed me my credit card and receipt. I said no. It's ridiculous- I have to wipe it any way and put it in my wallet. In the store I had to touch some things to see if I wanted them or not. I can't clean them or my hands or the gloves each time! How does that work?
> 
> ...


Personal choices of how much or little we do is an individual decision.  Your statement “We didn't have to wear masks inside but just did so as a courtesy to others so they do not freak out, otherwise we wouldn't.” I am sure made others very comfortable even though it wasn’t for you.


----------



## Trudyt623 (May 5, 2020)

In states where masks are mandatory in stores it is causing problems for some.  This article is about a woman who ran for mayor of her town in 2017 and lost. Recently, she entered a supermarket and was told she had to leave because she had no mask on.  When police arrived she spit on them!!









						Roseville woman accused of assaulting employee, spitting on police in grocery store
					

Kristin Hoff was asked to leave a St. Clair Shores store because she wasn't wearing a mask. Authorities said she assaulted an employee, spit on police.



					www.freep.com
				




Woman spits on police 

I am believe in following the rules and try to never argue with employees doing their job.  smh


----------



## Cornell (May 5, 2020)

@WinniWoman I'm with you -- I've about had it.  I'm doing the basic things - lots of hand washing , etc.  If you think about it too much it makes you crazy and I refuse to become neurotic or obsessed over this.  

I'm now grocery shopping at 9 pm (the last hour the store is open) so I can avoid wearing a mask.  There are so few people there at that time that I can get through the store w/o getting in proximity of anyone.  That's my solution.


----------



## TravelTime (May 5, 2020)

I do not really mind wearing a mask. We wear them when we go out because it is what is socially acceptable to do, the government recommends it and we are rule followers. If it were up to me, though, I would not wear a mask. The thing I do not like about masks is how they have become a symbol of divide in this country. I do not like the shaming going on by some mask wearers. I do not think wearing a mask or not wearing one says anything about someone's character. Many mask wearers are simply wearing it for self-interested reasons but they like to say it is for other people. The mask has become a symbol of virtue.


----------



## Panina (May 6, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> I do not really mind wearing a mask. We wear them when we go out because it is what is socially acceptable to do, the government recommends it and we are rule followers. If it were up to me, though, I would not wear a mask. The thing I do not like about masks is how they have become a symbol of divide in this country. I do not like the shaming going on by some mask wearers. I do not think wearing a mask or not wearing one says anything about someone's character. Many mask wearers are simply wearing it for self-interested reasons but they like to say it is for other people. The mask has become a symbol of virtue.


Wow, do you realize you are  making assumptions on some peoples motives for wearing a mask and actually doing what you claim others are, shaming.


----------



## TravelTime (May 6, 2020)

Panina said:


> Wow, do you realize you are  making assumptions on some peoples motives for wearing a mask and actually doing what you claim others are, shaming.



I am a mask wearer so I would be shaming myself.

I do not think one can make assumptions about what people wearing masks or who do not wear masks are thinking or what their character is like.

Now I feel shamed!


----------



## Panina (May 6, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> I am a mask wearer so I would be shaming myself.
> 
> I do not think one can make assumptions about what people wearing masks or who do not wear masks are thinking or what their character is like.
> 
> Now I feel shamed!


My reply was not intended to shame you but just to make you aware that even when we don’t think we are judging we possibly are.  You statement  “Many mask wearers are simply wearing it for self-interested reasons but they like to say it is for other people.” comes off judging others.  

I do judge people at times, am aware of it, wish I didn’t, but human nature in me and all of us often causes that.

You feelings are clear as are mine and I appreciate you do wear a mask because it is recommended even though it is not your belief.  Time and science will tell us later on if it really helps limit the spread.


----------



## TravelTime (May 6, 2020)

Panina said:


> My reply was not intended to shame you but just to make you aware that even when we don’t think we are judging we possibly are.  You statement  “Many mask wearers are simply wearing it for self-interested reasons but they like to say it is for other people.” comes off judging others.
> 
> I do judge people at times, am aware of it, wish I didn’t, but human nature in me and all of us often causes that.
> 
> You feelings are clear as are mine and I appreciate you do wear a mask because it is recommended even though it is not your belief.  Time and science will tell us later on if it really helps limit the spread.



Yes I can see your point. I am actually being judgmental of myself because I made it clear that I wear a mask for self-interested reasons.


----------



## WinniWoman (May 6, 2020)

Ironically- in the very beginning I was calling BS when the govenment said not to bother with masks because they don't do anything. I worked in health care and knew there are some benefits to wearing a mask otherwise healthcare professionals wouldn't. Common sense. I knew right off they were lying becase they did not want a run on masks,

Then suddenly weeks later they change their tune. Now we are down from only N95's work to home made cloth masks. SMH... And we wonder why people don't trust anything...

Now they are onto cleaning masks or how most should be thrown out after just one use (often done in healthcare settings in normal times). Mind you- these masks are only beneficial if people are coughing or spitting or sneezing in your direction or such droplets are hanging around in the air in the building you are in. Ok fine. But you are also supposed to be 6 feet away- a random distance they came up with. Not always easy in a store I can tell you that. Even when I go for our group walks. People are not always aware. Outside- I do not wear a mask. 

You know what? Grab a paper towel or tissue or even a rag and hold it over your nose and mouth and call it a day.

PS Yesterday we were up in the White Mountains at a lake in the middle of nowwhere and a group of workers were there putting up  a few signs. They each came in separate cars and each one had a mask on, yet they each were working individually- not close to one another- and they all had masks on. I found this comical in a wilderness area, but I guess mandated by their employer- the state. Meanwhile, here at home the construction workers don't wear masks at all and are right next to each other all day every day for months now. Some even smoking. Mainly the same guys, also.


----------



## geist1223 (May 6, 2020)

We still Mask and Glove up for all store visits. It would be a shame if one of us turned out to be an asymptomatic carrier and spread COVID19 to our loved ones by accident. Also you can spread it for 5 to 14 days before you show symptoms. ¿What is so hard with taking simple precautions for your family?


----------



## Glynda (May 6, 2020)

WinniWoman said:


> A friend of mine sent us 2 cloth masks she made. We used them today when we went into an old country store here. Both of us had fogged up glasses and it made us get hot and was so hard to breathe and enjoy perusing around the store for purchases. My husband had to go outside and wait for me. (Heck- he even used the porta potty outside- which I told him not to, but he is having issues in that "department" lately if you know what I mean- and he couldn't wait until he got home. The surgical masks are much more comfortable, though I cough with those.
> 
> The cashier wanted to know if I wanted a glove as she handed me my credit card and receipt. I said no. It's ridiculous- I have to wipe it any way and put it in my wallet. In the store I had to touch some things to see if I wanted them or not. I can't clean them or my hands or the gloves each time! How does that work?
> 
> ...



I'm wearing a mask with a bendable band across the nose and have never had my glasses fog.


----------



## Glynda (May 6, 2020)

Quilter said:


> The point to my posts is to expand the picture.   Like your post with the video.   It expanded the picture.   It was educational.
> 
> From the information here we see masks aren't a magic bullet.   You can be standing next to a masked sneezer who doesn't have Covid while you are holding a box of Cheerios touched by someone sick who fiddled with their mask.   Especially if you're also fiddling with your mask.   Therefore, the sense of security is false.
> 
> ...



Let me just say that, personally, I believe that Luanne's earlier post best sums up my reasons for wearing a mask in public when others are nearby. I think it bears repeating:


----------



## WinniWoman (May 6, 2020)

Glynda said:


> I'm wearing a mask with a bendable band across the nose and have never had my glasses fog.



That’s  good. But I have what I have. Will put up with it for now until I stop wearing them altogether.


----------



## Sugarcubesea (May 6, 2020)

WinniWoman said:


> A friend of mine sent us 2 cloth masks she made. We used them today when we went into an old country store here. Both of us had fogged up glasses and it made us get hot and was so hard to breathe and enjoy perusing around the store for purchases. My husband had to go outside and wait for me. (Heck- he even used the porta potty outside- which I told him not to, but he is having issues in that "department" lately if you know what I mean- and he couldn't wait until he got home. The surgical masks are much more comfortable, though I cough with those.
> 
> The cashier wanted to know if I wanted a glove as she handed me my credit card and receipt. I said no. It's ridiculous- I have to wipe it any way and put it in my wallet. In the store I had to touch some things to see if I wanted them or not. I can't clean them or my hands or the gloves each time! How does that work?
> 
> ...



Winni, that was my problem with my cloth masks, my glasses fogged up and I was running into things and the fact that they heated me up so badly was worrisome for me as I already have high blood pressure and getting that hot is bad for me. I did get some disposable masks and these work so much better now I will have to order more of these so that I have stock in hand...


----------



## Glynda (May 6, 2020)

WinniWoman said:


> That’s  good. But I have what I have. Will put up with it for now until I stop wearing them altogether.



Some of our stores are handing out masks. Not sure that they have the bendable nose piece but at least a source of an additional mask.


----------



## Eric B (May 6, 2020)

Micrashell | Production Club
					

Micrashell is a futuristic hazmat-type suit that allows for social interaction without fear of contracting the coronavirus or other diseases.




					production.club
				




This looks interesting....


----------



## Panina (May 6, 2020)

This is why educating the public is important









						How this N95 mask could put others at risk for illness
					

With some states requiring residents to wear face masks in public to help stop the spread of the novel coronavirus, at least one mask could actually do more harm than good: An N95 respirator, but only if it has a small valve on the front.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Panina (May 6, 2020)

The psychology behind why some people won't wear masks
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/06/health/why-people-dont-wear-masks-wellness-trnd/index.html


----------



## CalGalTraveler (May 6, 2020)

Panina said:


> This is why educating the public is important
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is why I love TUG. I had not seen this before. Thank you. We have a few N95s with the valve and will tape them if we ever use them (hopefully never because that would mean we are ill).


----------



## CalGalTraveler (May 6, 2020)

I haven't had time to read this entire thread so perhaps this was stated previously. My view is this (from @Panina previous article):

_Aronoff compared the mask guidance to the ban on smoking cigarettes in restaurants or schools.
"There are rules about not smoking in enclosed restaurants and bars because that smoke can be deleterious to someone else's health," he said. "Now we're in a situation where, if I'm infected with the Covid-19 virus, my breath can be lethal to someone else."_


IMHO...Not wearing a mask in the grocery store or restaurant is unsanitary. Do you want people breathing germs on your food? Yuck! Wearing a mask is a matter of courtesy and personal hygiene so people are not breathing germs (covid or non-covid) on others' food. It's no different than shirts and shoes required in restaurants, or taking a shower and applying deodorant before boarding a packed plane or subway. This is perhaps why Asians continued to wear masks after SARS. SARS changed the norms.


----------



## Bodie (May 6, 2020)

Panina said:


> This has bothered me since the start of this virus.
> 
> I constantly hear and read that wearing a mask doesn’t protect me  but protects others  from me if I am sick.
> 
> ...



I believe the science.   The majority of people where I live wear masks when shopping, walking their dogs and other public areas.  Without a doubt it is why we have been able to contain this virus.  My eyes are on those areas that have re-opened.  Let's see where they are in two to three weeks.


----------



## Powderday (May 6, 2020)

Interesting mask study in the Annals of Internal Medicine that actually used Covid-19 patients and masks, keep in mind extremely small sample size.  Only mask study I've read that has actually used Covid-19 patients. https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/...sks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison


----------



## Luanne (May 6, 2020)

Our governor in New Mexico just said face masks will be required for some essential workers – including grocery store and restaurant employees – starting Wednesday.


----------



## Ken555 (May 6, 2020)

Bodie said:


> I believe the science. The majority of people where I live wear masks when shopping, walking their dogs and other public areas. Without a doubt it is why we have been able to contain this virus. My eyes are on those areas that have re-opened. Let's see where they are in two to three weeks.



Yes. Of course, the numbers were increasing last week in the states that are reopening. Even with immediate SIP orders in those states, that the rates will increase in two or three weeks is inevitable. Truly sad it’s come to this, and we are still at the beginning of this pandemic.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Panina (May 6, 2020)

Powderday said:


> Interesting mask study in the Annals of Internal Medicine that actually used Covid-19 patients and masks, keep in mind extremely small sample size.  Only mask study I've read that has actually used Covid-19 patients. https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/...sks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison


Too many assumptions


----------



## Panina (May 6, 2020)

We are not the only ones who disagree, the scientists have different opinions too. 








						Report on face masks' effectiveness for COVID-19 divides scientists
					

To wear a mask or not to wear a mask?




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Panina (May 6, 2020)

Saw this and said Really? The face mask escape!








						Inmate escapes by posing as fellow detainee, wearing a face mask
					

An inmate at a Chicago jail escaped over the weekend by putting on a face mask and posing as a fellow detainee who was about to be released, officials said. Jahquez Scott — who had been locke…




					nypost.com


----------



## CalGalTraveler (May 6, 2020)

Personal COVID-19 Update: It’s been rough…..
					

Hey guys, Sorry for the lack of posts or updates on this blog for a very long time. As you may already know (if you didn’t, now you do), I’m not a full time blogger or photographer, so every time there is a crisis at work, my blog posts start …



					grabamile.boardingarea.com


----------



## TravelTime (May 6, 2020)

Panina said:


> We are not the only ones who disagree, the scientists have different opinions too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This article summarizes why I am skeptical of masks. I keep hearing contradictory information by the experts. First they said masks do not work, then they said they recommend wearing masks. But the evidence is inconclusive. I wear a mask in public to make other people more comfortable and to avoid social shaming but I am not yet convinced the science supports it.


----------



## TravelTime (May 10, 2020)

I have an idea. Maybe we need to start promoting masks as a fashion statement. Perhaps more people, especially young people, will start wearing masks if it is deemed trendy and cool!









						In 2020, masks aren't just for protection -- they're being used to make a statement — CNN
					

Across the globe, people are no longer just using masks as protective gear — they are using them to make statements about their personalities, their politics and their beliefs.




					apple.news


----------



## geekette (May 10, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> This article summarizes why I am skeptical of masks. I keep hearing contradictory information by the experts. First they said masks do not work, then they said they recommend wearing masks. But the evidence is inconclusive. I wear a mask in public to make other people more comfortable and to avoid social shaming but I am not yet convinced the science supports it.


I think the visual showing the cough in green and how it gets stopped is enough science support.   Nobody is saying these cheap cloth masks are Ultimate Protection, they are merely a simple barrier so everyone can keep their fluids to themselves.  

early on, nobody thought we needed masks, but that was before it was known how very contagious, and that there could be asymptomatic spread.  There was also concern that the public would grab up what the med folks needed so there was a bit of a .... discouragement campaign, I guess I would say.


----------



## Brett (May 10, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> I have an idea. Maybe we need to start promoting masks as a fashion statement. Perhaps more people, especially young people, will start wearing masks if it is deemed trendy and cool!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think they are already are  (masks as fashion accessory)  -  or promoting other things
https://timesofsandiego.com/crime/2...-posts-video-of-quarrel-with-santee-deputies/


----------



## Panina (May 20, 2020)

Wearing a surgical mask can reduce coronavirus transmission by up to 75 percent, study says
					

Researchers on Sunday found that wearing surgical masks can significantly reduce the rate of airborne COVID-19 transmission, amid a debate over the effectiveness of wearing them during the coronavirus pandemic.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## jme (May 20, 2020)

slip said:


> *I haven’t talked too much about the virus but I really think the benefits to wearing the masks/face coverings are being over stated  here. The social distancing is way more important.* Walking by someone is an extremely low risk activity. Being within a few feet of someone and grabbing a can of corn and then walking away is again extremely low risk, mask or no mask.
> If you are a high risk person by all means wear a mask or better yet stay home. I wear a mask here because they are mandatory. As soon as they are not, I will not be wearing one.




Totally inaccurate! 
Scientific studies show droplets and mist from cough or sneeze can travel 20+ feet (scientific video animations are rampant on the internet),
so social distancing definitely helps, but is not a guarantee by any means.
Even talking can cause breath to travel beyond 6 ft. Walking by someone in a store, etc does the same, or jogging behind them, etc.

And the real point is twofold, it benefits not only the mask wearer for prevention, but those that DON'T WEAR MASKS are more likely
to transmit the virus to others (might be asymptomatic), so it's really not a personal choice or "opinion" question anymore when it affects others.

(Good job, Panina)
Online this morning:
*"Wearing a face mask can reduce coronavirus transmission 
by up to 75 percent, study says"*

*More evidence that counters the non-believers (something we've known all along):*









						Wearing a surgical mask can reduce coronavirus transmission by up to 75 percent, study says
					

Researchers on Sunday found that wearing surgical masks can significantly reduce the rate of airborne COVID-19 transmission, amid a debate over the effectiveness of wearing them during the coronavirus pandemic.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Cornell (May 20, 2020)

jme said:


> Totally inaccurate! and so are the ones who gave you a "Like" on that ill-conceived post.
> (Reactions: mark201235, pittle, WinniWoman, TravelTime, Cornell.)
> BTW, scientific studies show droplets and mist from cough or sneeze can travel 20+ feet (scientific video animations are rampant on the internet),
> so social distancing definitely helps, but is not a guarantee by any means.
> ...


So now we are calling out people who like a given post?  And the shouty all caps and air quotes? 

Not that I owe you any information about my behavior, but yesterday when I picked my dog up from the vet that I wore a mask.  Do I get a gold star on my behavior chart for that?


----------



## presley (May 20, 2020)

jme said:


> Totally inaccurate! and so are the ones who gave you a "Like" on that ill-conceived post.
> (Reactions: mark201235, pittle, WinniWoman, TravelTime, Cornell.)


Totally bizarre post. The person you quoted said that *they think*, not that they know or that they did a study or that it is a fact. The quoted material alludes a personal opinion. You are saying that their thinking/personal opinion is totally inaccurate and that anyone who likes their post is totally inaccurate. How can someone be wrong for liking something? I think pink yoga mats are better than black ones. Is that totally inaccurate? How can you be inside my head? And if anyone likes that I like pink Yoga mats better than black ones, are they totally inaccurate? Who is the ultimate authority and in control of what anyone else thinks about anything?


----------



## Cornell (May 20, 2020)

presley said:


> Totally bizarre post. The person you quoted said that *they think*, not that they know or that they did a study or that it is a fact. The quoted material alludes a personal opinion. You are saying that their thinking/personal opinion is totally inaccurate and that anyone who likes their post is totally inaccurate. How can someone be wrong for liking something? I think pink yoga mats are better than black ones. Is that totally inaccurate? How can you be inside my head? And if anyone likes that I like pink Yoga mats better than black ones, are they totally inaccurate? Who is the ultimate authority and in control of what anyone else thinks about anything?


I just liked your post.  Is that OK?  Will I get called out?


----------



## jme (May 20, 2020)

presley said:


> Totally bizarre post. The person you quoted said that *they think*, not that they know or that they did a study or that it is a fact. The quoted material alludes a personal opinion. You are saying that their thinking/personal opinion is totally inaccurate and that anyone who likes their post is totally inaccurate. How can someone be wrong for liking something? I think pink yoga mats are better than black ones. Is that totally inaccurate? How can you be inside my head? And if anyone likes that I like pink Yoga mats better than black ones, are they totally inaccurate? Who is the ultimate authority and in control of what anyone else thinks about anything?



If anyone "likes" a post, to me it means they agree with it. And if some says "I think", then whatever follows is their current interpretation of facts
and in a way, their belief. I'm simply trying to bring attention to a habitual practice of not giving due respect to recommendations and directives from qualified authorities that should be followed, not because I'm trying to butt in and restrict their freedoms, but if someone out there doesn't follow the accepted guidelines, they might just be affecting me and my family, and of course others. That is not good.
If it doesn't protect them, that's their choice, but obviously in this time of a world-wide pandemic which has not abated significantly,
it goes both ways.
I'll put it another way, protect yourself, and do no harm. Both.  I'm not calling people out for not liking blue or red, or ranch or blue cheese dressing,
but for safe practices which could potentially cause severe sickness for someone else. 
Not a time for going against the highest standard, and given my daily protocol as a healthcare provider, and what I happen to know,
I'm not apologizing for following the experts' advice or backing off. 
I happen to have a family member who works at the highest level in epidemiological research at a major institution,
one of the nation's leading labs, and what they say carries some weight with me.
The ill-advised posters here who think this and think that are currently going against the grain of current knowledge, so I must speak out.
I am not trying to offend anyone, but I truly am trying to wake them up. 
Some people ignore well-established facts, and that can be dangerous (in a worldwide ongoing pandemic, no less).


----------



## Cornell (May 20, 2020)

jme said:


> If anyone "likes" a post, to me it means they agree with it. And if some says "I think", then whatever follows is their current interpretation of facts
> and in a way, their belief. I'm simply trying to bring attention to a habitual practice of not giving due respect to recommendations and directives from qualified authorities that should be followed, not because I'm trying to butt in and restrict their freedoms, but if someone out there doesn't follow the accepted guidelines, they might just be affecting me and my family, and of course others. That is not good.
> If it doesn't protect them, that's their choice, but obviously in this time of a world-wide pandemic which has not abated significantly,
> it goes both ways.
> ...


"I'm not trying to offend anyone".  Well, you did without trying.


----------



## WVBaker (May 20, 2020)

If I may jump in.

Why does it always seem that when someone says, "I am not trying to offend anyone", they know without any doubt whatsoever that they are indeed going to offend someone?   

Anyway, "jme", not one person is expecting you to "apologize for following the experts' advice". You are quite free to do just that. What you're not free to do, without some response at Least, is to denounce someone for not. Your "expert's" advice seems to be ever changing day to day.

As for me, when you can come to me and say without any reservation whatsoever, that my actions are indeed infecting others, I'll agree with you. Now remember, don't fall back on, "... might just be affecting me and my family" or "... could potentially cause..". So very many choices anyone makes in life may affect your life. We don't go through life enclosed in bubble wrap.


----------



## Cornell (May 20, 2020)

@WVBaker That's exactly it -- the experts have changed their opinions / directives throughout this adventure.  Which makes me a bit suspect of their advice.


----------



## jme (May 20, 2020)

Cornell said:


> @WVBaker That's exactly it -- the experts have changed their opinions / directives throughout this adventure.  Which makes me a bit suspect of their advice.



They have not changed the general thrust of their advice on wearing masks, or hand-washing, or safe distancing, or wiping down surfaces....
these basic principles have been going from the start, and of late have even been reinforced even more.
They may have disagreed along the way on the "correct and proper way" to go about it, but the general premise was the same.
Along the way there were indeed those who decided to go against the recommendations and to minimize the importance, sure,
even out-and-out protest,
but there were no reliable major scientific studies that effectively refuted it, that is, enough to throw out the directives.
Some minor studies came out questioning the effectiveness of the guidelines, but they were soon debunked. 
At every turn, the original studies were again cited, and the proponents adamantly reasserted the same advice.
I know because I've followed the major scientific outlets since the onset because it directly affects my profession in a major way.
I contend that the noncompliance to these things by individuals based on faulty advice was the major factor
that caused the worldwide spread so quickly. And the major city spreads. And that same "no fear" attitude goes on today on a lesser scale.

On a larger scale......Look at one example of the masses of Spring Breakers in Florida who afterward returned home
to all areas of the country, mainly up north, and the situation regarding new cases of infection exploded as a result.
Could have been avoided, even by nothing other than common sense.
We're not nearly far enough along in this to let our guards down, believe me, so don't misinterpret people's desire
to get out more, and things opening up, as a confirmation that it's about to go away, or that the numbers are still not significant.


----------



## dayooper (May 20, 2020)

Cornell said:


> @WVBaker That's exactly it -- the experts have changed their opinions / directives throughout this adventure.  Which makes me a bit suspect of their advice.



Just curious, where do you get your advice from?


----------



## Laurie (May 20, 2020)

The post jme originally called out wasn't just an opinion - the OP also said


slip said:


> I wear a mask here because they are mandatory. As soon as they are not, I will not be wearing one.



So yes, the action based on the personal opinion potentially affects everyone else. "Liking" the statement kinda implies approval for the behavior.

Initially there *was* some "official" advice (from the administration, more than from the medical community) that masks weren't effective. That was back when the severity of the outbreak was officially being minimized and brushed off. I'm betting these folks said masks weren't effective only because they already knew about the extent of the PPE shortage, and didn't want masses to go buy out all the N95's and surgical masks. Now that cloth masks are widely available, and that more is known about the virus and transmission, and the death toll keeps mounting, advice is different.

Even if medical opinion were evenly divided (it's not!), and there'd be a 50% chance it is correct that your mask will save lives, and wearing one doesn't adversely affect your own health or safety, what is the rationale for not wearing one?  If you leave a candle burning in your home when you leave, and doing so only has a 50% chance of burning down your house, wouldn't you blow it out before you leave? What if it were only a 10% chance of burning down your house? Wouldn't you still blow it out? Is someone else's life as valuable as your house?

Edited to add: by the way, I personally hate wearing one, I feel like I'm suffocating. Therefore I'm not going anywhere unneccessary for any period of time right now. If they'll be required on flights, I probably won't fly until the pandemic is over.


----------



## Cornell (May 20, 2020)

dayooper said:


> Just curious, where do you get your advice from?


At the beginning of C19 , Dr. Fauci advised the public not to wear masks.

Later we were told that that advice was given to preserve PPE.

Now people are told masks are effective and you can just use a bandana, scarf, whatever you have laying around.  That's not PPE.

This is what I'm referring to when the advice, guidance has not been consistent .

I'm done commenting on this.  The "call outs" on this are really more than I can stomach.


----------



## dayooper (May 20, 2020)

Cornell said:


> At the beginning of C19 , Dr. Fauci advised the public not to wear masks.
> 
> Later we were told that that advice was given to preserve PPE.
> 
> ...



FYI - I wasn’t calling you out. I am legitimately curious on where your advice comes from.

I agree the advice hasn’t been consistent, and that’s a problem.


----------



## Panina (May 20, 2020)

So I started this post and I am chiming in.  Everyone is allowed their opinion.  I know I have liked a post that I disagreed with as that was me showing you I understood your reasons even if I disagreed with them. 

If we just take a moment and reread our posts and ask, how would I feel if someone wrote this about me?  Many of these posts wouldn’t be posted the way they are. 

Going against other people opinions is difficult and should be respected but arguing, belittling, being rude, etc. is uncalled for.  There are many posts that debate subjects with dignity, respect, without being rude that clearly show a differing opinion.


----------



## slip (May 20, 2020)

Laurie said:


> The post jme originally called out wasn't just an opinion - the OP also said
> 
> 
> So yes, the action based on the personal opinion potentially affects everyone else. "Liking" the statement kinda implies approval for the behavior.
> ...



If you are saying that I am the OP that is incorrect. I did post that though and have not changed my mind. That statement still stands for me.


----------



## WVBaker (May 20, 2020)

Laurie said:


> The post jme originally called out wasn't just an opinion - the OP also said
> 
> 
> So yes, the action based on the personal opinion potentially affects everyone else. "Liking" the statement kinda implies approval for the behavior.
> ...



We were doing so well in not bringing politics into this but, like a moth attracted to a bright light.   

I don't recall any advice being labeled, "official". Yes, we had advice from politicians or "the administration" as you put it, and yes, we had advice from the medical field. Any advice given is just that, advice. Follow it if you choose to and don't, should you not. As a betting individual you're speculating that, "these folks", who ever they are, were in some dark collusion to distribute information based solely on a supply issue? While an interesting theory, it's simply that, a theory. I don't know if I agree however, please feel free to speculate.

You're correct, medical opinion is divided. I certainly have no idea of the exact percentage, but nonetheless, it is. You're well within your right to listen to whatever opinion you choose. I still remember that humorous saying about opinions and yes, everyone does have one. Well, except for certain medical procedures of course.

One final thought. That whole candle question can be used for just the opposite conclusion as well.


----------



## Panina (May 20, 2020)

I am pro mask but this makes me think. Still pro mask but need to be careful.








						Could wearing a mask for long periods be detrimental to health?
					

Retired neurosurgeon Dr. Russell Blaylock has highlighted a number of studies linking prolonged mask use to headaches and lowered blood oxygen levels, which can weaken the immune system.




					www.jpost.com


----------



## TravelTime (May 20, 2020)

Panina said:


> I am pro mask but this makes me think. Still pro mask but need to be careful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting this. I am impressed that you posted this, knowing that you are pro-mask. It is nice that you are open to looking at both sides of the issue and not just evidence that supports being pro-mask. Like you, I try to look at both sides and my opinions evolve as the science and data evolves. In the meantime, I am wearing a mask when I go out.


----------



## Luanne (May 20, 2020)

Panina said:


> I am pro mask but this makes me think. Still pro mask but need to be careful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm thinking this applies to those who are wearing a mask all day long, like those who are required to do so by their business.  I know dh told me one of the clerks at Sprouts, where he does our grocery shopping, told him she has a headache every day.  I wonder if there is anything that can be done for these people, like a break where they can go and be without the mask?  Would breaks like that help?  And medical personnel?  Maybe in "normal" times they're not wearing a mask all day, but some of them are most likely wearing them for long periods.

I don't think (and again these are my thoughts and opinions) those of use who use a mask periodically and not for long periods of time wouldn't be affected.  Or at least not affected to the degree long term mask users are.


----------



## Brett (May 20, 2020)

Masks Become a Flash Point in the *Virus Culture War*s
As people resume going out in public in the middle of a pandemic, to wear or not to wear a face mask has become a personal statement and sometimes a political one

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/03/us/coronavirus-masks-protests.html


----------



## Laurie (May 20, 2020)

slip said:


> If you are saying that I am the OP that is incorrect. I did post that though and have not changed my mind. That statement still stands for me.



Guess I used an inaccurate term - not OP as in first person on this whole thread, but the person who originally posted the comment referred to by jme, and was subsequently commented on by others. Sorry I got the terminology wrong.


----------



## slip (May 20, 2020)

Laurie said:


> Guess I used an inaccurate term - not OP as in first person on this whole thread, but the person who originally posted the comment referred to by jme, and was subsequently commented on by others. Sorry I got the terminology wrong.



No worries, I just didn’t want any confusion on who started the thread.


----------



## slip (May 20, 2020)

jme said:


> They have not changed the general thrust of their advice on wearing masks, or hand-washing, or safe distancing, or wiping down surfaces....
> these basic principles have been going from the start



Dr Fauci is on record early in the pandemic as saying there is no reason for everyone to be out wearing masks. 

I will wear my mask when they mandatory and will not wear them when they are not mandatory.


----------



## Laurie (May 20, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> I don't recall any advice being labeled, "official". Yes, we had advice from politicians or "the administration" as you put it, and yes, we had advice from the medical field. Any advice given is just that, advice. Follow it if you choose to and don't, should you not. As a betting individual you're speculating that, "these folks", who ever they are, were in some dark collusion to distribute information based solely on a supply issue? While an interesting theory, it's simply that, a theory. I don't know if I agree however, please feel free to speculate.
> 
> You're correct, medical opinion is divided. I certainly have no idea of the exact percentage, but nonetheless, it is. You're well within your right to listen to whatever opinion you choose. I still remember that humorous saying about opinions and yes, everyone does have one. Well, except for certain medical procedures of course.
> 
> One final thought. That whole candle question can be used for just the opposite conclusion as well.


To clarify: by "official" I mean the advice dispensed during the daily briefings from the WH. I think the term "official" can apply.

Not sure what you mean by the candle question being used for the opposite conclusion, but my point was/is this: we all choose in various ways to mitigate certain risks. Most of us pay for fire insurance on our homes, for instance, even tho it costs hundreds of dollars. We don't balk when auto inspection is required for license plate renewal, since safety is potentially compromised by an unsafe vehicle - even though we have to pay for the inspection, and it's an inconvenience. We don't mind being required by local or state or federal law to wear shoes into a restaurant or shop. 

When the risk is potentially high, as in life or death for some, and the cost is almost nothing, as in the case with masks, it's interesting to me that there is such widespread resistance, as if this is an unforgiveable threat to our freedom. Why is this so different than my examples above?


----------



## TravelTime (May 20, 2020)

I think I finally figured out one possible reason why masks have become a source of controversy. It is one of the only visible pieces of evidence anyone has to judge if someone is complying with the guidelines. That and the 6' spacing. However, 6' spacing is harder to judge. Many people stay away from others without these guidelines in place so it is harder to judge if someone is complying or not simply based on physical distance. We can only judge social distancing compliance if someone gets directly in our space but we do not know if someone far away from us is following the guidelines or not. But if that person far away from us is not wearing a mask, we instantly can judge them as not complying even though they are far away. No one knows if other people are washing their hands or not. It is a private behavior. Since humans are biologically wired to avoid illness and disease, the mask has become the symbol of cleanliness, safety and caring. Unconsciously, we may think: Mask wearers are safe people. They do not want to harm me or anyone else. They are good people who I can trust.


----------



## geekette (May 20, 2020)

slip said:


> Dr Fauci is on record early in the pandemic as saying there is no reason for everyone to be out wearing masks.


Early in the pandemic, we didn't know of asymptomatic spread.  He's wearing a mask now.  

As info changes, so do people's opinions and advice.  Even Dr Fauci.


----------



## geekette (May 20, 2020)

....Since humans are biologically wired to avoid illness and disease, the mask has become the symbol of cleanliness, safety and caring.  Unconsciously, we may think:  Mask wearers are safe people. They do not want to harm me or anyone else. They are good people who I can trust.

eh, I can't go that far, but perhaps for you and others the mask is such a symbol.  To me, it's a protective device and that's all it is.   I absolutely do not consider masked persons to be all around good trustworthy people.   Considerate is the only quality I would attach to the mask.


----------



## slip (May 20, 2020)

geekette said:


> Early in the pandemic, we didn't know of asymptomatic spread.  He's wearing a mask now.
> 
> As info changes, so do people's opinions and advice.  Even Dr Fauci.



I was just responding to the consistent message comment.


----------



## bbodb1 (May 20, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> .... Since humans are biologically wired to avoid illness and disease, the mask has become the symbol of cleanliness, safety and caring. Unconsciously, we may think: Mask wearers are safe people. They do not want to harm me or anyone else. They are good people who I can trust.



Hmmm.  Going to have to ponder on that for a bit....


----------



## geekette (May 20, 2020)

slip said:


> I was just responding to the consistent message comment.


Yeah, I know.  Just pointing out that most of us reserve the right to change our minds as new info comes to light.   It seems like people have forgotten this about themselves (not directed at you, slip).

Scientists are forever learning new info and formulating new theories and establishing new facts.  This novel coronavirus did not exist until recently.  Nobody last September was going around with a mask on around here, unless they had an illness (my hospital has had signage up about this for a long time; wear a mask in here if you are coughing or feverish).   But then, something changed, something new in the world.  And as new info has come to light, advice changed, behaviors changed.  

There is much we do not yet know.   Matters surrounding immunity, re-infection, etc., are big questions that we hope to solve quickly, along with effective treatments, vaccines, etc.  As we get answers, and reliability to those answers, I expect our behaviors will continue to change.


----------



## WVBaker (May 20, 2020)

Laurie said:


> To clarify: by "official" I mean the advice dispensed during the daily briefings from the WH. I think the term "official" can apply.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by the candle question being used for the opposite conclusion, but my point was/is this: we all choose in various ways to mitigate certain risks. Most of us pay for fire insurance on our homes, for instance, even tho it costs hundreds of dollars. We don't balk when auto inspection is required for license plate renewal, since safety is potentially compromised by an unsafe vehicle - even though we have to pay for the inspection, and it's an inconvenience. We don't mind being required by local or state or federal law to wear shoes into a restaurant or shop.
> 
> When the risk is potentially high, as in life or death for some, and the cost is almost nothing, as in the case with masks, it's interesting to me that there is such widespread resistance, as if this is an unforgiveable threat to our freedom. Why is this so different than my examples above?



Well, that is where we differ in some way I suppose. I consider your referenced in this case to be, informed advice. But, tomato, tomahto as they say.

Should masks become required by law for all aspects of life, we'll have little choice. Until that point in time though. I will suggest this. If you believe a mask will protect you from this virus, purchase the mask that offers you the very best protection possible, regardless of cost. That way you can feel secure in knowing you've done everything you can. That way you needn't worry what others are doing or not doing. I would ask though, please don't expect me or any others who 
feel the same way, to unquestionably accept whatever fears you and others may or may not have. Do what it takes to protect you. You have a choice, as do those who choose not to.

What it comes down to is, it rests with me to protect myself from whatever danger I may or may not encounter in life. If I in some way, think you're a threat to me, I will do whatever it takes to protect me and my family. I'm not asking you to do that for me.


----------



## Brett (May 20, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> Well, that is where we differ in some way I suppose. I consider your referenced in this case to be, informed advice. But, tomato, tomahto as they say.
> 
> Should masks become required by law for all aspects of life, we'll have little choice. Until that point in time though. I will suggest this. If you believe a mask will protect you from this virus, purchase the mask that offers you the very best protection possible, regardless of cost. That way you can feel secure in knowing you've done everything you can. That way you needn't worry what others are doing or not doing. I would ask though, please don't expect me or any others who
> feel the same way, to unquestionably accept whatever fears you and others may or may not have. Do what it takes to protect you. You have a choice, as do those who choose not to.
> ...




I don't believe wearing masks will become a "law" - federal or state
But certainly some businesses require masks for employees


----------



## WVBaker (May 20, 2020)

geekette said:


> As info changes, so do people's opinions and advice.  Even Dr Fauci.



Ah yes, Dr. Fauci. The same "expert" who predicted 240,000 deaths in the U.S. It is possible but, we have quite a ways to go.


----------



## Brett (May 20, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> Ah yes, Dr. Fauci. The same "expert" who predicted 240,000 deaths in the U.S. It is possible but, we have quite a ways to go.



Ah yes, maybe it's *GREAT* that people believed Dr. Fauci's advice and the coronavirus deaths are only 90,000


----------



## cman (May 20, 2020)

Whatever you do, please don't be like this guy. Costco should give Tison a raise;


----------



## Luanne (May 20, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> Ah yes, Dr. Fauci. The same "expert" who predicted 240,000 deaths in the U.S. It is possible but, we have quite a ways to go.


Didn't he revise that.

So far we're just under 100,000 and that is in how many months?  Unless this just goes away the death toll will keep rising.


----------



## WVBaker (May 20, 2020)

Brett said:


> Ah yes, maybe it's *GREAT* that people believed Dr. Fauci's advice and the coronavirus deaths are only 90,000


Hey Brett... good to see you.  Yes, I suppose that is one way to look at it.


----------



## Brett (May 20, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> Hey Brett... good to see you.  Yes, I suppose that is one way to look at it.



good to see U 2   

 we know you religiously follow another person ....


----------



## geekette (May 20, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> Ah yes, Dr. Fauci. The same "expert" who predicted 240,000 deaths in the U.S. It is possible but, we have quite a ways to go.


That wasn't his model.  And I do believe we will pass that.


----------



## WVBaker (May 20, 2020)

Brett said:


> good to see U 2
> 
> we know you religiously follow another person ....


----------



## geekette (May 20, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> If you believe a mask will protect you from this virus, purchase the mask that offers you the very best protection possible, regardless of cost. That way you can feel secure in knowing you've done everything you can. That way you needn't worry what others are doing or not doing.


I would have to put a mask on you for my protection.  This is the key issue - it is droplets from others that are my risk.  The mask I wear protects You.


----------



## bbodb1 (May 20, 2020)

Brett said:


> good to see U 2


*Wait!   What?  




*


----------



## slip (May 20, 2020)

geekette said:


> That wasn't his model.  And I do believe we will pass that.



That projection in that model had a date on it though. It was by May or June. It wasn’t a projection for the whole pandemic.


----------



## TravelTime (May 20, 2020)

I was given a mask by a hospital where I had a procedure done. This mask is so poorly designed that I do not think it protects me or anyone else. The mask constantly falls off my face. It has ties and I can never get them tied tight enough so the mask is loose. I reuse the mask because I am still waiting to receive new masks in the mail, which is also not the best practice as I am more likely to infect myself with reusing a mask. My husband has a homemade mask that he made following one of the health expert’s online instructions and it is also really poor. I ordered masks and bandanas through Amazon almost 2 months ago and I am still waiting. Before getting this mask from the hospital, I used a scarf but the scarf was porous so in reality it was not effective and it was wool, so really hot to use. Does anyone have a link to where I could promptly get an effective mask? Others told me where to look before but the wait time on their suggestions was too long and I already have an order in. If I could find a place with good masks that can deliver quickly, I would order some more. Given my experience with our masks, I think just because someone is wearing a mask does not mean they are wearing an effective one.


----------



## Ken555 (May 20, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> I was given a mask by a hospital where I had a procedure done. This mask is so poorly designed that I do not think it protects me or anyone else. The mask constantly falls off my face. It has ties and I can never get them tied tight enough so the mask is loose. I reuse the mask because I am still waiting to receive new masks in the mail, which is also not the best practice as I am more likely to infect myself with reusing a mask. My husband has a homemade mask that he made following one of the health expert’s online instructions and it is also really poor. I ordered masks and bandanas through Amazon almost 2 months ago and I am still waiting. Before getting this mask from the hospital, I used a scarf but the scarf was porous so in reality it was not effective and it was wool, so really hot to use. Does anyone have a link to wear I could promptly get an effective mask? Others told me where to look before but the wait time on their suggestions was too long and I already have an order in. If I could find a place with good masks that can deliver quickly, I would order some more. Given my experience with our masks, I think just because someone is wearing a mask does not mean they are wearing an effective one.



Wow. I ordered masks early on and they arrived a long time ago. I also ordered more just a couple weeks ago from a big name brand and am waiting now for those. 

“Effective” is debatable right now, but anything is almost certainly better than nothing. And now there are more and more companies producing masks. Even the print on demand manufacturers are in the game now. You shouldn’t have any difficulty finding masks, though almost every source will have some delay at delivering since they are only now ramping up production. Expectations need to be reasonable, and I know we had posts on this in March and April... 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Brett (May 20, 2020)

I have a collection of masks -  homemade, bought online from Amazon, gifts
the efficacy of all the masks is similar but no empirical tests have been performed


----------



## bbodb1 (May 20, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> ....Since humans are biologically wired to avoid illness and disease, the mask has become the symbol of cleanliness, safety and caring. Unconsciously, we may think: Mask wearers are safe people. They do not want to harm me or anyone else. They are good people who I can trust.



Okay, pondering complete.    

My first thought about masks was NOT as a symbol similar to what you describe in the quote @TravelTime - rather I see the mask and associate its presence with disease, filth and weakness. We 'mask up' when we don't want (or can't stand) a smell, need to avoid fumes or other things that should not be inhaled.  We 'mask up' to protect our 'weak' self from something external so powerful or overwhelming.  I see masks as more a portent of suffering or even death.  I recall reading the stories of gas used in World War I and the woefully inadequate countermeasures masks were to that end.  

_Idle thought: this may connect to something @Panina opined in another thread about Males and masks._

Prior to COVID 19, I would suggest the mask had mostly a negative connotation.  
Unless, of course, one was a super hero....but then again _*those masks*_ (the mask of a super hero) were only to hide identity and not to protect the 'weak' self from the outside threats.  

Seriously though, I cannot see masks as a positive as you do given what they are mostly associated with historically in my mind.  
But I really found your point interesting as it made me think about how an object emotes feelings - both positive and negative.


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## cman (May 20, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> I was given a mask by a hospital where I had a procedure done. This mask is so poorly designed that I do not think it protects me or anyone else. The mask constantly falls off my face. It has ties and I can never get them tied tight enough so the mask is loose. I reuse the mask because I am still waiting to receive new masks in the mail, which is also not the best practice as I am more likely to infect myself with reusing a mask. My husband has a homemade mask that he made following one of the health expert’s online instructions and it is also really poor. I ordered masks and bandanas through Amazon almost 2 months ago and I am still waiting. Before getting this mask from the hospital, I used a scarf but the scarf was porous so in reality it was not effective and it was wool, so really hot to use. Does anyone have a link to where I could promptly get an effective mask? Others told me where to look before but the wait time on their suggestions was too long and I already have an order in. If I could find a place with good masks that can deliver quickly, I would order some more. Given my experience with our masks, I think just because someone is wearing a mask does not mean they are wearing an effective one.


Here's a link to an article with a few options;








						Here’s Where You Can Buy A Face Mask Online Right Now
					

Wearing a face mask in public has become standard procedure for millions of Americans. Here are some of the best options available for purchase.




					www.forbes.com
				




Here's a more recent article:








						Seven face masks that are well-made and available right now
					

Whether you’re looking for silk or cotton, prints or solid colors, these face masks make everyday PPE easy.




					www.fastcompany.com


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## TravelTime (May 20, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> Okay, pondering complete.
> 
> My first thought about masks was NOT as a symbol similar to what you describe in the quote @TravelTime - rather I see the mask and associate its presence with disease, filth and weakness. We 'mask up' when we don't want (or can't stand) a smell, need to avoid fumes or other things that should not be inhaled.  We 'mask up' to protect our 'weak' self from something external so powerful or overwhelming.  I see masks as more a portent of suffering or even death.  I recall reading the stories of gas used in World War I and the woefully inadequate countermeasures masks were to that end.
> 
> ...



I agree with you that masks have historically had a negative meaning. I am shocked at how quickly Americans have adopted masks, given its historical meaning.


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## geekette (May 20, 2020)

slip said:


> That projection in that model had a date on it though. It was by May or June. It wasn’t a projection for the whole pandemic.


Not sure which model it comes from, the 2 million deaths by end of year?  That might also have had a "by August" date on it.  I dunno, I got "model weary" a long time ago.  So many models....  so many different assumptions...  It's all rather a crapshoot, same as my estimating size of my stock portfolio in 10 years...   input known facts, input assumptions, draw lines.  Then wait and see...


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## Luanne (May 20, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> I agree with you that masks have historically had a negative meaning. I am shocked at how quickly Americans have adopted masks, given its historical meaning.


I look at them like the masks medical personal wear. That doesn't have a negative connotation to me.

A bandana over the face brings up outlaws, but it also brings up cowboys using it to keep the dust out of their nose and mouth.  

I guess you can look at face coverings and give them whatever meaning you want.


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## "Roger" (May 20, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> .... I ordered masks and bandanas through Amazon almost 2 months ago and I am still waiting. ...


In addition to Post #147, here is another option. The State of Liberity is a private company, but they are making masks to be used at the U of Michigan hospital. When you order two masks, they donate a third to the U of Michigan hospital. (Or, you can donate some directly.) They will mail out your masks first class mail the next day. (Note, they day free shipping but that is only if you sign up to their outfit. I believe shipping was about four dollars.)

(For the record, I use two masks, the above and also a mask made by a friend who was using donated sheets to make masks and gowns for the Navaho nation. They are very different from each other and each has it advantages.)


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## PigsDad (May 20, 2020)

Brett said:


> I don't believe wearing masks will become a "law" - federal or state
> But certainly some businesses require masks for employees


Well, it is "law" via executive orders, health department orders, etc. in several locales across the US right now (my county, included).

Kurt


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## PigsDad (May 20, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Wow. I ordered masks early on and they arrived a long time ago. I also ordered more just a couple weeks ago from a big name brand and am waiting now for those.


I ordered a 4-pack of masks (non-N95) around March 20th, and they still have not arrived.  I guess it just depends on if you were lucky or not in choosing a company that was honest.  And yes, they stated that they had masks in stock when I ordered via Amazon.

I've been using a bandanna in the mean time.

Kurt


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## dsmrp (May 21, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> I was given a mask by a hospital where I had a procedure done. This mask is so poorly designed that I do not think it protects me or anyone else. The mask constantly falls off my face. It has ties and I can never get them tied tight enough so the mask is loose. I reuse the mask because I am still waiting to receive new masks in the mail, which is also not the best practice as I am more likely to infect myself with reusing a mask. My husband has a homemade mask that he made following one of the health expert’s online instructions and it is also really poor. I ordered masks and bandanas through Amazon almost 2 months ago and I am still waiting. Before getting this mask from the hospital, I used a scarf but the scarf was porous so in reality it was not effective and it was wool, so really hot to use. Does anyone have a link to where I could promptly get an effective mask? Others told me where to look before but the wait time on their suggestions was too long and I already have an order in. If I could find a place with good masks that can deliver quickly, I would order some more. Given my experience with our masks, I think just because someone is wearing a mask does not mean they are wearing an effective one.



I worked off/on in an area adjacent to an OR.  Occasionally we had to go into an OR room, so wore disposable masks with ties or elastic around the ears.  Most of the surgical staff wear those pleated masks with ties.  Ties are much more secure than elastic.

Try Etsy for masks.  I haven't looked for masks myself, but recently I found mask making supplies on Etsy from smaller scale businesses that I couldn't find in the larger ones such as Amazon or JoAnn's, Hobby Lobby etc.  The well-known businesses are all sold out.

I made fabric masks for DD cause she works at a smaller clinic, sees patients but couldn't order any medical grade masks.  Pretty soon the doctors at her clinic wanted some for themselves for personal use.  Then DD's friends wanted some, and I offered to my close friends and siblings.  I can't keep up even with DD helping to cut fabric, as I still have a work from home full time job.  She wasn't interested in sewing as a kid, and trying now.   And it isn't that you can give just one mask to one person.  I offered to a friend, and she wanted masks for everyone in her household, okay 4 masks...and then they wanted a spare to wear when the first has been worn and needs to be washed, so 4 became 7 (her husband didn't get a spare).  Friend gave me a lot of fabric tho' that she had left over from years ago, so it was an unexpected good trade


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## easyrider (May 21, 2020)

It's a strange time to me as I look back. Hindsight is 20/20. When this covid 19 thing started up we were told that there was a shortage of masks and that masks don't protect the general public. I had a bunch of n-95's and regular dust masks that were expired and no one wanted them. Suddenly, medical professionals ( EMT ) wanted them. I saved three for me for working on projects. Since masks were not required it was no problem.

After a couple of weeks go by you couldn't find a mask anywhere. At this time the CDC said that masks do help. Go figure. I had given two of the three I had left away. I wore the one remaining one use mask many times but realized most people going to essential businesses were not wearing a mask including the people that were working there. 

Today, I have many masks that were given to me by the many mask makers with sewing machines. Some are cool like the Sea Hawk mask. I also have that dirty , grimy and looking very used mask on the seat of my old work truck. Lately it seems that old mask is the only one that is within reach when I actually need one. Go figure. 

Bill


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## easyrider (May 21, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> I ordered a 4-pack of masks (non-N95) around March 20th, and they still have not arrived.  I guess it just depends on if you were lucky or not in choosing a company that was honest.  And yes, they stated that they had masks in stock when I ordered via Amazon.
> 
> I've been using a bandanna in the mean time.
> 
> Kurt



Have you wore it to the bank yet cowboy. 

Bill


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## geekette (May 21, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> I ordered a 4-pack of masks (non-N95) around March 20th, and they still have not arrived.  I guess it just depends on if you were lucky or not in choosing a company that was honest.  And yes, they stated that they had masks in stock when I ordered via Amazon.
> 
> I've been using a bandanna in the mean time.
> 
> Kurt


holy crap, that's a long time!   maybe FEMA swooped in and cleared them out and yours are on backorder.


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## geekette (May 21, 2020)

easyrider said:


> It's a strange time to me as I look back. Hindsight is 20/20. When this covid 19 thing started up we were told that there was a shortage of masks and that masks don't protect the general public. I had a bunch of n-95's and regular dust masks that were expired and no one wanted them. Suddenly, medical professionals ( EMT ) wanted them. I saved three for me for working on projects. Since masks were not required it was no problem.
> 
> After a couple of weeks go by you couldn't find a mask anywhere. At this time the CDC said that masks do help. Go figure. I had given two of the three I had left away. I wore the one remaining one use mask many times but realized most people going to essential businesses were not wearing a mask including the people that were working there.
> 
> ...


I stashed bandanas in my glove box.  I figure there will be a time or two that I forget, since I leave home so infrequently and don't wear them at home.


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## presley (May 21, 2020)

Panina said:


> If we just take a moment and reread our posts and ask, how would I feel if someone wrote this about me? Many of these posts wouldn’t be posted the way they are.


Yes, I thought about deleting/rewriting my post, but decided to leave it up as I meant it at the time that I posted it. I am sorry, @jme for quoting your post and drawing attention to it. At the same time, I did in fact mean what I said, but it's not something worth typing out for the world to see. 


PigsDad said:


> I ordered a 4-pack of masks (non-N95) around March 20th, and they still have not arrived. I guess it just depends on if you were lucky or not in choosing a company that was honest. And yes, they stated that they had masks in stock when I ordered via Amazon.


It took 2 months to get some hand sanitizer that I ordered mid March. It came 2 days ago and I had totally forgotten about the order by the time it came, other than I probably did a charge back and already won. I did a couple charge back for stuff I ordered from Amazon that had fake tracking numbers and arrived much later than it was supposed to, such as hand sanitizer coming 2 months later. It looks like it came directly from China and since I can't return it to Amazon, I am just keeping it.


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## Monykalyn (May 21, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Now people are told masks are effective and you can just use a bandana, scarf, whatever you have laying around. That's not PPE.


 No it is NOT and that is what is getting lost in all these "studies" showing how mask use cuts transmission. Most are using well fitted surgical masks designed to filtrate incoming particulates. It is harder to find studies on exhaled particulates and effecitiveness, although there are some out there, mainly from influenza studies.


TravelTime said:


> t is one of the only visible pieces of evidence anyone has to judge if someone is complying with the guidelines


And boy do we love to judge others    And that can be a danger in itself: I have allergies and asthma, strong odors can cause me to cough. With all the judgy mcjudgersons out there now I don't want to get beat up or shot because my lungs reacted! Mask or not...


Brett said:


> I have a collection of masks -  homemade, bought online from Amazon, gifts
> the efficacy of all the masks is similar but no empirical tests have been performed





			https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252
		

I found this and it does show rate of stopping particles being breathed out for various materials/layers. It also attempted to show how a mask that is not fitted as well lowers the efficacy by a large percent. Catching large droplets isn't the issue - sneezing or coughing into tissue/elbow will catch the large stuff; it is the small particles that are the issue-and gaps in a mask - like most cloth face coverings-lose efficiveness quickly.
I cannot find it now but I had read a study where they tested cloth masks from a skilled maker vs homemade ones from someone trying to follow the guidelines at home-and again rather large differences in how well they worked.


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## PigsDad (May 21, 2020)

easyrider said:


> Have you wore it to the bank yet cowboy.


I feel like I am robbing the place when I enter a store with it on!   

Kurt


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## WVBaker (May 21, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> I feel like I am robbing the place when I enter a store with it on!
> 
> Kurt



Man who wore watermelon on head while stealing from convenience store arrested, police say









						Man who wore watermelon on head while stealing from convenience store arrested, police say
					

Virginia police arrested one suspect accused of stealing alcohol from a convenience store while wearing a hollowed-out watermelon on his head.



					www.usatoday.com


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## Cornell (May 21, 2020)

The latest from my suburban facebook group:  Someone ranting about face masks hanging from rear view windows in cars and they need to be TAKEN DOWN! as they impede vision while driving.

Probably true , but the lecturing never ends.


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## Laurie (May 21, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Probably true , but the lecturing never ends.


And who among us isn't ever guilty? Perhaps we could all keep in mind those bible verse about casting the first stones, and planks in our own eyes ...


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## Luanne (May 21, 2020)

Cornell said:


> The latest from my suburban facebook group:  Someone ranting about face masks hanging from rear view windows in cars and they need to be TAKEN DOWN! as they impede vision while driving.
> 
> Probably true , but the lecturing never ends.


Everyone is tired, anxious and the littlest things can be annoying and cause us to snap.


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## Eric B (May 21, 2020)

jme said:


> If anyone "likes" a post, to me it means they agree with it. And if some says "I think", then whatever follows is their current interpretation of facts
> and in a way, their belief. I'm simply trying to bring attention to a habitual practice of not giving due respect to recommendations and directives from qualified authorities that should be followed, not because I'm trying to butt in and restrict their freedoms, but if someone out there doesn't follow the accepted guidelines, they might just be affecting me and my family, and of course others. That is not good.
> If it doesn't protect them, that's their choice, but obviously in this time of a world-wide pandemic which has not abated significantly,
> it goes both ways.
> ...



For the record, I "liked" this post, but I don't agree with it.  One aspect that I "liked" was that it stated a personal opinion and I have dedicated mush of my adult life protecting the rights of people to express there personal opinions.  I'm all about that.  I also appreciated the discussion of protection and do no harm.  There was a lot to like in this post; there were also aspects I disagree with.  If we wanted to, we could have a reaction that was dedicated to complete 100% agreement with everything someone says in a post, but we don't.  Instead, we just like stuff.


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## geekette (May 21, 2020)

Sometimes a like is "I hear ya" or "thank you".   A like from me is rarely I Completely Agree.


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## Ken555 (May 21, 2020)

On my feed this morning is this message from a hospital worker... just another opinion to add to the mix. 



> Good Lord. If I hear one more Ill informed drama queen whine about cloth or surgical masks causing profound lack of oxygenation I’m going to pass out and it won’t be due to severe hypoxia or “Co2 poisoning” it’ll be because my eyeballs have rolled so far back into my head that I’ve completely lost consciousness.
> You do realize that surgeons and circulating nurses in the OR have worn surgical masks for entire shifts their whole careers, right? If there’s one group of people that you don’t want becoming hypoxic it’s the people holding power tools and scalpels over an anesthetized human  with their insides hanging out. Surgical masks and their effects on oxygenation have been studied for decades. Except in rare instances of people with obstructive airway diseases, surgical masks (and by proxy, cloth masks) do not cause any problems whatsoever with adequate respiratory gas exchange.
> You want to know why? Because surgical masks and cloth masks aren’t really “filtering” anything, including oxygen or Co2. That’s right, they aren’t respirators, like the n95 mask (which is filtering). Surgical and cloth masks serve 1 purpose and 1 purpose only; to minimize droplets, which can carry bacteria and virus, from A-leaving the immediate nose/mouth area of the mask wearer and B-from landing on the nose/mouth area of the mask wearer. That’s it. That’s all they do. That’s why they’re recommended for the general public to help minimize the spread of infectious droplets.
> N95 masks are totally different. They are actually meant to filter, so they do restrict normal airflow. That is why they are not recommended for the public. If you are wearing an n95 mask around town and feeling short of breath, switch to a surgical or cloth mask. Simple as that.
> ...


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## Cornell (May 21, 2020)

^^^ Lovely.


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## WVBaker (May 21, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> On my feed this morning is this message from a hospital worker... just another opinion to add to the mix.


Your "feed"?


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## PigsDad (May 21, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> Your "feed"?


I'm guessing Facebook.  I saw the same thing reposted by a friend yesterday on my Facebook feed.

Kurt


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## Cornell (May 21, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> On my feed this morning is this message from a hospital worker... just another opinion to add to the mix.


I love the irony of this post.  The writer calls out "drama queens" yet they say "t’ll be because my eyeballs have rolled so far back into my head that I’ve completely lost consciousness. "  .  

Now, WHO IS the drama queen ?


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## Talent312 (May 21, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> I feel like I am robbing the place when I enter a store with it on!


More likely you are being robbed by paying for a crappy product (unless it's a fresh vegetable).

Overheard:
Customer to Door Checker: "Do I have to wear a mask to enter?"
Door Checker: "Yes, that's the rule. But we don't enforce it."
-------------------------
We ordered a pack of 50 felt masks thru Amazon and got 'em ~2 weeks later.
We shared some w-family and have ~20 left.  I could fax you a few.


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## Ken555 (May 21, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I love the irony of this post.  The writer calls out "drama queens" yet they say "t’ll be because my eyeballs have rolled so far back into my head that I’ve completely lost consciousness. "  .
> 
> Now, WHO IS the drama queen ?



It's too bad we can't all try to be a little objective on this topic. It's obvious to me that the author is quite frustrated and needed to vent.


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## Ken555 (May 21, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> I'm guessing Facebook.  I saw the same thing reposted by a friend yesterday on my Facebook feed.
> 
> Kurt



Yup.


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## Luanne (May 21, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> It's too bad we can't all try to be a little objective on this topic. It's obvious to me that the author is quite frustrated and needed to vent.


It was written by a health care worker.  I'm sure they are frustrated and need to vent..............a lot.  I feel (my opinion) that it's a slap in the face to them when people refuse to wear masks for whatever reason.


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## geist1223 (May 21, 2020)

We were at Office Depot today for Printer Ink. They had 10 packs of Masks for $19.99.


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## PigsDad (May 21, 2020)

Talent312 said:


> We shared some w-family and have ~20 left.  I could fax you a few.


Thanks for the offer, but I kind of like "playing cowboy".  I just need to get myself a pair of s**t-kickers, spurs, a hat and a holster belt to complete the outfit.   

Kurt


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## Panina (May 21, 2020)

Luanne said:


> It was written by a health care worker.  I'm sure they are frustrated and need to vent..............a lot.  I feel (my opinion) that it's a slap in the face to them when people refuse to wear masks for whatever reason.


I was out today at a bank over the border in NC where the numbers are increasing.  I needed to get papers notarized and it was the closest branch that had a notary.  The bank policy is all employees wear masks.

I had to wait which I did outside.  The notary came out to get me and had a mask on.  I go into a small office, sign the papers, give him all the papers and documents needed.  He then takes his mask off.  I said can you please put it back on.  He refused, said it bothers him, he will do what is good for him

I picked myself up and walked into the open space and told him from afar when you are done you can bring them out to me In the envelope on the table.  He said you need to stay, I said why, you have everything you need.  If your asymptomatic I don’t want it.  

When he handed them to me I told him if you don’t want to follow your companies policy, your company should not ensure me that you will be wearing a mask.  I told him I would let the company know.  

About 20 minutes later I get a call from the district supervisor.  The notary called him to tell him I was upset because I “thought” he wasn’t wearing his mask properly.  He wasn’t wearing it at all.


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## presley (May 22, 2020)

Monykalyn said:


> And boy do we love to judge others  And that can be a danger in itself: I have allergies and asthma, strong odors can cause me to cough. With all the judgy mcjudgersons out there now I don't want to get beat up or shot because my lungs reacted! Mask or not...


I hear you. I am allergic to dust and it's normal for me to sneeze and blow my nose a couple times when I am out walking my dogs. I did notice at one point that I hadn't sneezed in several weeks - which has never happened before. I think maybe it's a side benefit of covering my nose and mouth. I was concerned the first couple weeks that I'd be shunned for blowing my nose, though.


----------



## jme (May 24, 2020)

The horse isn't dead yet (nor is the Coronavirus pandemic), so I'll continue to share my message, reaffirmed here again,
this time via FoxNews' Chris Wallace interviewing Dr. Birx, who is the White House coronavirus task force coordinator.









						Dr. Birx: 'Critically important' that people wear masks as states reopen amid higher than expected death tolls
					

White House coronavirus task force coordinator Dr. Deborah Birx warned that even though states are beginning to reopen, with some beaches being made available to the public over Memorial Day weekend, that people must still maintain social distancing precautions and wear masks where appropriate.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## bbodb1 (May 24, 2020)

From @jme post above, in the article was this statement:


> ..."[T]here’s clear scientific evidence now by all the droplet experiments that happen and that others have done to show that a mask does prevent droplets from reaching others," Birx told "Fox News Sunday," recognizing that Americans will want to get out over the holiday weekend. "And out of respect for each other, as Americans that care for each other we need to be wearing masks in public *when we cannot social distance*. It’s really critically important, *we have the scientific evidence of how important mask wearing is to prevent those droplets from reaching others.*”...



I just returned from a trip to town today and was paying even more attention that usual to the mask / no mask decision.  It is worth noting that my trip involved stops at Home Depot, Kroger and Sam's.  The timing of these visits were chosen in the hope of low crowd counts in each of these places of business, and sure enough, all three were sparsely populated during today's visit.

I did not - and do not - wear a mask.  To be clear, I am not saying my decision is right or wrong but given the circumstances in our area, applying the standard noted by Dr. Blix above with respect to wearing a mask *in the places I regularly visit, at the time(s) regularly visited and with the usual population density in these establishments during these visits* does not seem to be a necessary act *because a minimum social distance -and more- can be maintained at all times*.   

My goal in making this point *is not* to inflame this conversation, but to draw some consideration toward the decision that because a person chooses NOT to wear a mask, it does not follow that person is acting in an irresponsible way *based solely on this decision*.  Is the person maintaining (at least) proper social distancing minimums and taking appropriate actions when sneezing or coughing - these things are harder to measure quickly, but are just as important toward stopping the spread of ANY virus. 

I suppose another way of saying this is I live in a more rural area than most TUG'gers (I suspect) and what may be necessary in the big city doesn't apply everywhere equally.  In reading responses over the past few days, I am pretty confident most TUG'gers would agree that one standard cannot apply everywhere and that we most be local in our approach to COVID 19, but at the same time, things can change - and our - and my - approach to dealing with COVID 19 may need to change as well.


----------



## Monykalyn (May 24, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> I did not - and do not - wear a mask. To be clear, I am not saying my decision is right or wrong but given the circumstances in our area, applying the standard noted by Dr. Blix above with respect to wearing a mask *in the places I regularly visit, at the time(s) regularly visited and with the usual population density in these establishments during these visits* does not seem to be a necessary act *because a minimum social distance -and more- can be maintained at all times*.


This is like my trip to Walmart Friday-few people in the store, everyone maintained distance, didn't try to crowd down aisles and few masks worn-I did wear a mask when I went to the pharmacy (even with the plexiglass and masked techs behind it) and at checkout-again closer proximity.  I'd also note that places like Walmart and Home depot have huge square footage and very very high ceilings (at least mine do) and I'd expect air circulation to be better with these spaces as well.
I happened to time my trip to Walmart during a massive rain storm too-I expect that had a bit to do with how patient people were (no hurry back out to rain) and how few people there were LOL


----------



## Panina (May 24, 2020)

Everyone can dissect what Dr Birx said to their view.  I believe we will be hearing a lot more about wearing masks in the coming days.  

Inside where other people are I will always wear a mask.  Me breathing or talking creates droplets, if I sneeze my hand , tissue, sleeve will not hold back as much as a mask. The air conditioning pushing the air, my droplets can be moved more then 6 feet  to others.  Let me repeat as I said many times before, I hate wearing a mask but I do.  I just cannot logically understand how others do not see it as a necessary precaution now.


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## Ken555 (May 25, 2020)

Why scientists are changing their minds and disagreeing during the coronavirus pandemic



> The changing recommendations during the Covid-19 pandemic on things such as whether to wear face masks has confused the public and caused them to lose faith in science.
> 
> But changing your mind based on new evidence is a badge of honor in the scientific community.
> 
> The situation is complicated by the fact that pre-print research is often being debated in public on social media, instead of behind closed doors.











						Why scientists are changing their minds and disagreeing about coronavirus — CNBC
					

In our culture, we often hold politicians, corporate executives and other leaders accountable for the consistency of their positions. But in the scientific world, thinking is expected to evolve based on new evidence — and that's happened during Covid-19.




					apple.news
				





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## Talent312 (May 25, 2020)

The line "I see dead people" from the movie "The Sixth Sense" (1999)
really is appropriate for the hoards crowding the beaches this weekend.

I'd ask, "What are they thinking?" but I doubt there's any thought at all.


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## geekette (May 25, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> Why scientists are changing their minds and disagreeing during the coronavirus pandemic


Yes.  Changing guidance hasn't bothered me, it makes sense, but it has clearly disturbed others into not knowing what to believe.

Science is not generally known for being fast (if you want accuracy and reliability), and we've only known about this thing since December.  It seems like fast progress to me.   Disagreement among scientists is ok with me, too, since if I were about to stand up a study, I would have in mind what I am trying to prove, which could vary oh so subtly from what the lady in the next lab is testing.   or we could be testing the same hypothesis but one little assumption or method varies, and we are not doing the same study.  

I am deeply grateful to those that are volunteering/will be volunteering to test ready-for-human meds.    I am far too chicken for that, but will donate as much blood (eventually plasma?) as needed.   For now, tho, I am keeping my contact list so low as to not even need to write it down.


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## bbodb1 (May 25, 2020)

I firmly agree with these points by @Ken555 and @geekette about the peer review process now playing out in public (on a much shorter time line) as opposed to how it traditionally played out not all that long ago.  The problem, and this is where fault can be placed on the scientific community, is in the fact that every medical researcher, physician, or other health care related worker should know this to and should begin every recommendation with a disclaimer of "*According to the available research as I/we interpret it at this time, I/we believe the best course of action is.....*"

And it should be repeated at every opportunity.  There are still too many people in the scientific community who want to be 'that' expert the public constantly sees as opposed to playing their part in the research process.

I know the easy response is everyone should remember this with any announcement, but in this day and age the process to consider and weigh alternatives in the public view is akin to creating an uncharted minefield in a frequently used parking lot.  _*Science (especially for the purpose of progress, reform or change) should realize the current social environment is not one in which the transactions required for thoughtful and intelligent discourse can openly take place in the manner in which it is doing so presently. *_


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## Panina (May 25, 2020)

I read this in another group I belong to.  Just a perspective from a grocery worker who has been working since the beginning.

”I have had a really hard week. I work in a grocery store, one of those essential workers. We have "opened up" to Phase II, which for many people meant time to get out and go. I had no idea that I would have the reaction to this that I did, I was so afraid that now I would be exposed even more, due to people not social distancing and refusing to wear a mask. I nearly went into a full break-down. The level of fear I felt, was a huge surprise to me. The anger that rose up in me, was overwhelming. I lost all control of my emotions the whole week and it got worse as the week went on.”

Thankfully she pushed through and is alright.


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## Cornell (May 25, 2020)

Panina said:


> I read this in another group I belong to.  Just a perspective from a grocery worker who has been working since the beginning.
> 
> ”I have had a really hard week. I work in a grocery store, one of those essential workers. We have "opened up" to Phase II, which for many people meant time to get out and go. I had no idea that I would have the reaction to this that I did, I was so afraid that now I would be exposed even more, due to people not social distancing and refusing to wear a mask. I nearly went into a full break-down. The level of fear I felt, was a huge surprise to me. The anger that rose up in me, was overwhelming. I lost all control of my emotions the whole week and it got worse as the week went on.”
> 
> Thankfully she pushed through and is alright.


My daughter, too, is a grocery store working who is also "essential" (she hates that term by the way).  I can tell you that her feelings on this are 100% the opposite of these comments.  So not all grocery workers feel this way.  Far from it.  

Sounds like the person you are quoting needs to take some time off .


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## Luanne (May 25, 2020)

Cornell said:


> My daughter, too, is a grocery store working who is also "essential" (she hates that term by the way).  I can tell you that her feelings on this are 100% the opposite of these comments.  So not all grocery workers feel this way.  Far from it.
> 
> Sounds like the person you are quoting needs to take some time off .


Oh I'll bet many grocery store workers, and health care workers, would love to take some time off.

You shared your dd's viewpoint. The other poster shared hers.  No one person speaks for the majority of the grocery store workers.  

I'm guessing long time grocery store workers have a different perspective than those who have only been at it a few month, and don't know what it was like "before".


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## Panina (May 25, 2020)

Cornell said:


> My daughter, too, is a grocery store working who is also "essential" (she hates that term by the way).  I can tell you that her feelings on this are 100% the opposite of these comments.  So not all grocery workers feel this way.  Far from it.
> 
> Sounds like the person you are quoting needs to take some time off .


My post was to show as you there are two sides. Empathy to both sides is where many are lacking.  It could go a long way.  I do not agree she needs to take time off as that is not an option.  If she leaves no unemployment, no pay.    She needs to feel safe.  If everyone was following guidelines by the cdc she would not feel the way she does. Out of the grocery store everyone can do as they please.   If all the workers in groceries that felt the way she does didn’t go to work would the grocery stores be able to function?


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## Cornell (May 25, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Oh I'll bet many grocery store workers, and health care workers, would love to take some time off.
> 
> You shared your dd's viewpoint. The other poster shared hers.  No one person speaks for the majority of the grocery store workers.
> 
> I'm guessing long time grocery store workers have a different perspective than those who have only been at it a few month, and don't know what it was like "before".


Correct.  That's why I'm sharing an opposing point of view.  Not everyone working in a public setting is universal in their feelings.


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## Cornell (May 25, 2020)

Panina said:


> My post was to show as you there are two sides. Empathy to both sides is where many are lacking.  It could go a long way.  I do not agree she needs to take time off as that is not an option.  If she leaves no unemployment, no pay.    She needs to feel safe.  If everyone was following guidelines by the cdc she would not feel the way she does. Out of the grocery store everyone can do as they please.   If all the workers in groceries that felt the way she does didn’t go to work would the grocery stores be able to function?


Completely disagree.  There are a lot of people who are feeling fear / break down mode that would still feel that way even if people were following CDC guidelines.


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## Panina (May 25, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Completely disagree.  There are a lot of people who are feeling fear / break down mode that would still feel that way even if people were following CDC guidelines.


As I disagree with you.  You  are making a huge assumption about a lot of people.  Can I assume there are many people walking around making believe there is no virus and not caring if they give it to someone because if they admit it that would have to deal with reality and be fearful.  Both of us will never agree with each other on this topic.  In time, looking back we will know more.  I still go back to empathy.


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## Cornell (May 25, 2020)

Panina said:


> As I disagree with you.  You  are making a huge assumption about a lot of people.  Can I assume there are many people walking around making believe there is no virus and not caring if they give it to someone because if they admit it that would have to deal with reality and be fearful.  Both of us will never agree with each other on this topic.  In time, looking back we will know more.  I still go back to empathy.


This is another assumption people make ... that those who are not in deep fear are denying their is a virus or this is a big hoax . Or lack empathy .


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## Luanne (May 25, 2020)

Cornell said:


> This is another assumption people make ... that those who are not in deep fear are denying their is a virus or this is a big hoax . Or lack empathy .


And the other assumption people make is that people who are concerned and are following the "rules" put in place are in deep fear.


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## Chrisky (May 25, 2020)

Maybe it is just me, but I just do not get it.  Why wouldn’t people want to do every thing possible to mitigate this pandemic.  IMHO it doesn’t matter if I believe this pandemic is serious or not.  Unless everyone is tested and we know who has had the virus, who is a carrier, or whatever,  it will not kill anyone to wear a mask, not to protect me but to protect others. 
If I pass on the virus to someone, then they can pass it on to others more vulnerable than I am.  IMO, as Panina has said, some people just do not have enough empathy for others in their community, city or state, or in my case in my province.  It really shows all of us in the world how uncaring a lot of people are towards their friends, and/or family. They are only concerned about themselves, how deplorable is that!!


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## Conan (May 25, 2020)

How to Maintain Social Distance as the U.S. Reopens
					

The physician Asaf Bitton discusses the risks of socializing indoors, the problem of public bathrooms, and why doctors have changed the way they think about masks.




					www.newyorker.com


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## Panina (May 25, 2020)

For all you nay sayers thinking wearing a mask and social distancing is not necessary I deep down hope you are right and I am wrong.

My bottom line, for those who understand the risk but choose not to do the cdc guidelines,   I do not feel anyone should  have to stay locked in their home  because they are higher risk if me and others wearing a mask and social distancing in stores and crowed area will possibly  reduce their risk.  Those who are vulnerable are at the highest risk staying home, not moving, deteriorating because of being locked in.  That is empathy to me the way I see it, the ability to share the feelings of others And trying to help them.

I will share a personal story. Today I spoke with mom.  She is 86 and lives in NYC.  I have been telling her to go out a few times a week to walk so she won’t lose the ability. The few weeks she didn’t caused her extreme pain and once she did start her stamina is not what it was before.  Walking is essential for her.

She has been walking, but today she told me many people are still not practicing the guidelines and she knows she is high risk and thinks staying home is better.  I asked her if that is what she wants? She said no but  I really don’t have good choices,  Get Paralyzed or risk getting the virus at my age.  What as  a daughter do I say?


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## Firepath (May 25, 2020)

I read a study somewhere that said those droplets travel further with louder voices, singing, yelling, etc. So, everyone keep your voices down.


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## Cornell (May 25, 2020)

Two mask stories from today:

1) Today is my mother's 87th bday.  She lives in a retirement community that is large (on a big campus) that has all levels / styles of living / care.  She in assisted living.  Today my daughter and I drove over there to stand outside her window and to wish her a happy birthday.  My mother lives on the 2nd floor.  She stood in the window and chatted with us on the phone.  

During this, "public safety" from her community came by and told me and my daughter that we had to put masks on.  Why?  There was not a single person near us....not even within eyesight.  Nor would anyone come near us b/c my mother lives in a corner of the property that is tucked away and not near an entrance.  Makes absolutely ZERO sense at all .  

On top of it, there were all kinds of residents that we saw (who live in independent living ) on our drive in  walking around the campus, working on their garden projects outside without masks.   

2) Talked to my 80 year old uncle today.  He got pulled over yesterday for not wearing a seatbelt and was issued a ticket (this is in Illinois).  As the cop finished up with the ticket he reminded my uncle that masks are required in Illinois.  Yet the policeman was not wearing a mask.  

It's the arbitrary nature of all this that makes me crazy.


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## Cornell (May 25, 2020)

Chrisky said:


> Maybe it is just me, but I just do not get it.  Why wouldn’t people want to do every thing possible to mitigate this pandemic.  IMHO it doesn’t matter if I believe this pandemic is serious or not.  Unless everyone is tested and we know who has had the virus, who is a carrier, or whatever,  it will not kill anyone to wear a mask, not to protect me but to protect others.
> If I pass on the virus to someone, then they can pass it on to others more vulnerable than I am.  IMO, as Panina has said, some people just do not have enough empathy for others in their community, city or state, or in my case in my province.  It really shows all of us in the world how uncaring a lot of people are towards their friends, and/or family. They are only concerned about themselves, how deplorable is that!!


"deplorable" - political alert


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## Panina (May 25, 2020)

Just saw this, need to research more but if good an option for mask wearers,









						Made-in-Israel anti-pathogen mask ‘Registered for Marketing’ by FDA
					

Sonovia developed an almost-permanent, ultrasonic, fabric-finishing technology for mechanical impregnation of zinc oxide nanoparticles into textiles.




					www.jpost.com
				




Found this, not approved for institutional use.








						Anti-Bacterial Fabric Startup Sonovia is Headed to NASDAQ
					

Sonovia develops sonochemical coating for fabrics to make them anti-bacterial and odorless




					www.calcalistech.com


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## Brett (May 25, 2020)

Cornell said:


> "deplorable" - political alert



not gonna comment


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## bbodb1 (May 25, 2020)

Firepath said:


> I read a study somewhere that said those droplets travel further with louder voices, singing, yelling, etc. So, everyone keep your voices down.



How's this, @Firepath ?


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## Ken555 (May 25, 2020)

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## bbodb1 (May 25, 2020)

Chrisky said:


> Maybe it is just me, but I just do not get it.  Why wouldn’t people want to do every thing possible to mitigate this pandemic.  IMHO it doesn’t matter if I believe this pandemic is serious or not.  Unless everyone is tested and we know who has had the virus, who is a carrier, or whatever,  it will not kill anyone to wear a mask, not to protect me but to protect others.
> If I pass on the virus to someone, then they can pass it on to others more vulnerable than I am.  IMO, as Panina has said, some people just do not have enough empathy for others in their community, city or state, or in my case in my province.  *It really shows all of us in the world how uncaring a lot of people are towards their friends, and/or family. They are only concerned about themselves, how deplorable is that*!!


From your profile @Chrisky - it appears home for you is in the greater Toronto area.  You certainly live in a more urban area than I do as I live in rural Arkansas.  I can almost entirely avoid ANY contact when out by choosing certain times of the day.  I use the self serve checkouts or the app on my phone to eliminate human interaction.  I'll wait for an aisle to clear (or visit another aisle while waiting) instead of crowding down an aisle.  I use the wipes and hand washing stations provided in our local stores.  

In your (more urban) area, I suspect such times (to avoid human interaction) are fewer and further between (if they even exist) as there are a lot more people in your area compared to here.  Every situation is different.  But painting every person with such broad brush paint strokes as you do with the bolded statement is a vast over reach.


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## DeniseM (May 25, 2020)

I knew that the "high road," was going to be too high for some of you - thread closed.


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