# SVO moves toward pure "points" play



## ocdb8r (Nov 7, 2013)

Just got an owner update for St. John and noticed this interesting tidbit about the new Coral Vista phase: "*The new development will be points-based rather than weeks-based, and Starwood will enable us to purchase points for cash*."

Lot's of very interesting implications...I can't wait to see some the thoughts everyone else out there has.  My first reactions:

1) No wonder they upped the Star Options for St. John...it's like printing money.

2) I wonder if other SVO resorts still in sales will move to this model?

3) How long before SVO tries to set up a Marriott like trust?  SVO is small enough that they likely have sufficient inventory at the current resorts to make it happen rather quickly...not to mention many Phase 3 options (Kaanapali, possibly Harborside, St. John...).


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## lizap (Nov 7, 2013)

I wouldn't read too much into this (e.g., SVO going the way of Marriott)..




> *development will be points-based rather than weeks-based, and Starwood will enable us to purchase points for cash*."
> 
> Lot's of very interesting implications...I can't wait to see some the thoughts everyone else out there has.  My first reactions:
> 
> ...


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## ocdb8r (Nov 7, 2013)

lizap said:


> I wouldn't read too much into this (e.g., SVO going the way of Marriott).



Really?  I don't see how they CAN'T be going the way of Marriott.  If they don't, how will owners in Coral Vista access other resorts?  There is obviously going to have to be some modification to SVN to allow points packages that aren't tied to an ownership week to be able to use the program.  Why would they limit this change to just one resort?


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## lizap (Nov 7, 2013)

Maybe all weeks will be floating (all owners will compete with each other for a specific desired week), with a certain number of SOs.  For example, my unit at WKV comes with 148,100 SOs and floats for a large part of the year. If I want week 52, I have to compete with other owners. Hence, no changes are necessary for SVN.  Am I missing something?




ocdb8r said:


> Really?  I don't see how they CAN'T be going the way of Marriott.  If they don't, how will owners in Coral Vista access other resorts?  There is obviously going to have to be some modification to SVN to allow points packages that aren't tied to an ownership week to be able to use the program.  Why would they limit this change to just one resort?


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## tschwa2 (Nov 7, 2013)

My first thought was UDI (a la wyndham).  Have a total amount of Staroptions for the resort and then sell however many someone wants to buy.  So if they can sell enough for a full week wonderful, it they can't close the deal that high they can sell enough for a half week in a studio.  To keep it voluntary they could allow direct purchases to trade within SVN and have resale owners only allowed to book up to the number of points owned at WSJ.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 7, 2013)

^^^^ I think that may be what you're missing.  I imagine they are selling it as points so they can develop completely flexible priced packages (not tied to the value of a week).  I could be wrong, but this is what has motiviated other big developers.  



lizap said:


> Maybe all weeks will be floating (all owners will compete with each other for a specific desired week), with a certain number of SOs.  For example, my unit at WKV comes with 148,100 SOs and floats for a large part of the year. If I want week 52, I have to compete with other owners. Hence, no changes are necessary for SVN.  Am I missing something?


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## cubigbird (Nov 7, 2013)

lizap said:


> Maybe all weeks will be floating (all owners will compete with each other for a specific desired week), with a certain number of SOs.  For example, my unit at WKV comes with 148,100 SOs and floats for a large part of the year. If I want week 52, I have to compete with other owners. Hence, no changes are necessary for SVN.  Am I missing something?




With this they could hypothetically sell an unlimited of contracts.  If week 52 is booked there is no availability so you have to book another week.  No different than the floating system now.  What's stopping them from selling an "unlimited" number of contracts???


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## lizap (Nov 7, 2013)

For each unit, the maximum number of weeks that could be sold is 52.  Similarly at WKV for a unit that floats 1-20,51,52, the maximum number of weeks that can be sold for the float period is 22.  The idea here is that all weeks at WSJ are highly desirable, which is a departure from the present structure.




cubigbird said:


> With this they could hypothetically sell an unlimited of contracts.  If week 52 is booked there is no availability so you have to book another week.  No different than the floating system now.  What's stopping them from selling an "unlimited" number of contracts???


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## cubigbird (Nov 7, 2013)

lizap said:


> For each unit, the maximum number of weeks that could be sold is 52.  Similarly at WKV for a unit that floats 1-20,51,52, the maximum number of weeks that can be sold for the float period is 22.  The idea here is that all weeks at WSJ are highly desirable, which is a departure from the present structure.



I get that, but not every owner uses their week every year - some exchange externally, use points internally to go elsewhere, some bank etc.  If I were Starwood, I would sell more contracts than weeks available if it was only a points system.....for example like the airlines often do for airline seats.  Ultimately there is more completely reserved weeks.


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 7, 2013)

cubigbird said:


> With this they could hypothetically sell an unlimited of contracts.  If week 52 is booked there is no availability so you have to book another week.  No different than the floating system now.  What's stopping them from selling an "unlimited" number of contracts???



Jail-time?


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## czar (Nov 7, 2013)

Is CV in active sales yet?  Anyone been pitched CV yet?


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## SMHarman (Nov 7, 2013)

ocdb8r said:


> Just got an owner update for St. John and noticed this interesting tidbit about the new Coral Vista phase: "*The new development will be points-based rather than weeks-based, and Starwood will enable us to purchase points for cash*."
> 
> Lot's of very interesting implications...I can't wait to see some the thoughts everyone else out there has.  My first reactions:
> 
> ...


I think this is reading too much into this letter.

The original WSJ was very much sold as weeks based (well as much as I can understand as I was not there at the time).  Most owners, while they have StarOptions do not use the float option, do not trade for other resorts (due to low SO vs MF).

If you read the big ol WSJ thread it talks of (and DavidandRobin has often said) treat many weeks purchased there as fixed weeks as there is limited exchangability even though they are 'floating'.

So the new sales will still be a week with points attached (the pricing chart is on this site somewhere, well at least a semi recent one), just as they are now.  I think these board members are anticipating that the points bump will mean there is more trading in SVO with the points bump.

Now, not to knock someone I don't know but unless you sit through enough presentations and read enough here, the buying points (is the author getting their SO and SP mixed up) already happens.  With SO bookings you can check in not on a Fr, Sa, Su.  All these may become more prevelant with the Coral phase.

So I think that the Coral phase is not changing much but as I have said before enabling HOT to deleverage this asset off their balance sheet.


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## SMHarman (Nov 7, 2013)

cubigbird said:


> I get that, but not every owner uses their week every year - some exchange externally, use points internally to go elsewhere, some bank etc.  If I were Starwood, I would sell more contracts than weeks available if it was only a points system.....for example like the airlines often do for airline seats.  Ultimately there is more completely reserved weeks.


Even the Marriott Trust cannot do that.


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## VacationForever (Nov 7, 2013)

ocdb8r said:


> Just got an owner update for St. John and noticed this interesting tidbit about the new Coral Vista phase: "*The new development will be points-based rather than weeks-based, and Starwood will enable us to purchase points for cash*."



I would attribute this to the salesperson's lips moving...


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## Henry M. (Nov 7, 2013)

My understanding is that CV is sold the same as BV. It is the normal SVN system, with floating weeks within a season. You have to pay extra to lock a week and even more to lock a specific unit after you lock the week. At least it was so a couple of months ago.

So VG remains the oddity in SVN with mostly fixed weeks and units, while BV/CV work more like other SVN locations where you have a certain number of Staroptions that determine the unit you can get.


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## SMHarman (Nov 7, 2013)

emuyshondt said:


> My understanding is that CV is sold the same as BV. It is the normal SVN system, with floating weeks within a season. You have to pay extra to lock a week and even more to lock a specific unit after you lock the week. At least it was so a couple of months ago.
> 
> So VG remains the oddity in SVN with mostly fixed weeks and units, while BV/CV work more like other SVN locations where you have a certain number of Staroptions that determine the unit you can get.


And Phil Schrag whos comment is attributed in post 1
(Full Letter http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1550502&postcount=1503 )
is a VGV owner so when he talks about Coral being more points than VGV the statement has more clarity.

It's gonna be interesting to see how well these sell, the point disparity is a real plus from a sales perspective.

And if you want a change from your week in WSJ you can take a 12 day trip to Maui in exchange.  That is a real plus point and a tempting sales hook.
(This would be a 3Br > 2BR - 148,100 for Su-Su, then another 96,250 for Mo > Fr and 13.350 leftover points)

Just a shame those points are not Mandatory.


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## Ken555 (Nov 8, 2013)

Does anyone have any FACTS about a points based Starwood system. If not, let's hold off on all the assumptions, shall we? 


Sent from my iPad


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## ocdb8r (Nov 9, 2013)

sptung said:


> I would attribute this to the salesperson's lips moving...



I probably should have been more clear in my OP, this is in a letter from two members on the VGV Board, not a SVO "owner update" salespitch.



SMHarman said:


> Now, not to knock someone I don't know but unless you sit through enough presentations and read enough here, the buying points (is the author getting their SO and SP mixed up) already happens.



It's certainly possible they are getting mixed up, but these are members who have served on the VGV Board for some time...I read the letter thinking they would be pretty familiar with the SVN system.  And to be clear, buying points absolutely does not happen now.  Not a single contract will contain the SVN point values for a given week (because SVN retains the right to change them as they please).  You purchase a week in a certain season, which SVN then allows you to trade in for points (on their terms).  

"Buying points" to me means something very different and given Bay Vista has been open and in sales as a floating weeks phase for some time, I don't know why Philip Schrag and Robert Werbel would highlight that this phase was going to somehow be different if it was simply a matter of being a floating weeks phase with the expectation of more "trading" in and out.

Further, the letter also says "*Such purchases would enable us to stay an extra day or two in a villa at the Westin St. John at the beginning or end of a week-long villa stay. *"

Explain to me how in the current system you can buy points to add only an extra day or two to your existing week?  



Ken555 said:


> Does anyone have any FACTS about a points based Starwood system. If not, let's hold off on all the assumptions, shall we?



Of course, Ken...because this site is all about waiting and not speculating until all the facts are known.  :-D


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## czar (Nov 9, 2013)

I know there are tuggers who've reported being at wsj since CV was announced. Someone must have been pitched it by now in an update!  I'm waiting for a call back from direct sales and I'll ask about pricing on CV.


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## DeniseM (Nov 9, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> Does anyone have any FACTS about a points based Starwood system. If not, let's hold off on all the assumptions, shall we?



Seriously???  Do you know where you are?


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## dioxide45 (Nov 9, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> Does anyone have any FACTS about a points based Starwood system. If not, let's hold off on all the assumptions, shall we?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad



There certainly would be a lot less discussion going on around here if people followed this logic.


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## DeniseM (Nov 9, 2013)

We don't need no stinkin' logic!


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## Ken555 (Nov 9, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> We don't need no stinkin' logic!



No doubt. I think this should be TUG's unofficial tag line.


Sent from my iPad


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## thinze3 (Nov 9, 2013)

Dave gave us Marriott owners real updates while salesman gave misleading salespitch information for 2-3 years before the actual announcement by Marriott. All of those speculative discussions would have been for naught had we waited for the announcement. 

I say speculate away! It will be fun. In the end it will probably be true.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 9, 2013)

thinze3 said:


> Dave gave us Marriott owners real updates while salesman gave misleading salespitch information for 2-3 years before the actual announcement by Marriott. All of those speculative discussions would have been for naught had we waited for the announcement.
> 
> I say speculate away! It will be fun. In the end it will probably be true.



Exactly. There is a ~3000 post thread in the Marriott forum based purely on speculation. After their announcement, a 1500 post thread was created. It looks like speculation is more interesting to talk about.


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## Mauiwmn (Nov 9, 2013)

*More data that Coral Vista will be different*

I was just surfing through the mystarcentral site and found this:

"Established Check-in Days
Established check-in days for Starwood Vacation Network villa resorts are Friday, Saturday or Sunday for Home Resort reservations and vary by resort. The Home Resort Reservation Period allows for reservations confirmed twelve (12) to eight (8) months prior to your desired arrival date, and require a stay of seven (7) consecutive nights with arrival on established check-in days for your Home Resorts. This does not apply to Coral Vista Owners, who can reserve stays for less than seven nights and check in any day."

So Coral Vista owners will be able to check in any day and reserve less then 7 nights during the home resort reservations period.  Very interesting.  These changes appear to be only applicable to Coral Vista.  

Maybe they are going to sell Coral Vista as a points only option.  Maybe this is the future for all new SVN properties.  Will be interesting to see how the float reservation period will work with star options at Coral Vista.  Will everyone be able to book less then 7 nights at the 8 month mark with star options?

Changes are a coming it seems, at least for this new phase.


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## vistana101 (Nov 9, 2013)

I asked someone on mystarcentral about it, here is what they said:

*"The new Coral Vista Phase at The Westin St. John is being sold differently than we currently do for other resorts in the Starwood Vacation Network (SVN). Instead of purchasing a week of ownership, owners who buy at the Coral Vista Phase purchase a package valued at a certain number of Home Options. You may think of Home Options just as you use your StarOptions when reserving at other SVN Resorts. Because it is possible for an owner to purchase an amount of Home Options valued at less than a full week of ownership, when making reservation back to their Home Resort they will have the ability to reserve less than a week of ownership within their 12 month booking window."*


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## Ken555 (Nov 9, 2013)

vistana101 said:


> I asked someone on mystarcentral about it, here is what they said:
> 
> *"The new Coral Vista Phase at The Westin St. John is being sold differently than we currently do for other resorts in the Starwood Vacation Network (SVN). Instead of purchasing a week of ownership, owners who buy at the Coral Vista Phase purchase a package valued at a certain number of Home Options. You may think of Home Options just as you use your StarOptions when reserving at other SVN Resorts. Because it is possible for an owner to purchase an amount of Home Options valued at less than a full week of ownership, when making reservation back to their Home Resort they will have the ability to reserve less than a week of ownership within their 12 month booking window."*



Thank you! Facts are fun, aren't they? 


Sent from my iPad


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## cubigbird (Nov 9, 2013)

vistana101 said:


> I asked someone on mystarcentral about it, here is what they said:
> 
> *"The new Coral Vista Phase at The Westin St. John is being sold differently than we currently do for other resorts in the Starwood Vacation Network (SVN). Instead of purchasing a week of ownership, owners who buy at the Coral Vista Phase purchase a package valued at a certain number of Home Options. You may think of Home Options just as you use your StarOptions when reserving at other SVN Resorts. Because it is possible for an owner to purchase an amount of Home Options valued at less than a full week of ownership, when making reservation back to their Home Resort they will have the ability to reserve less than a week of ownership within their 12 month booking window."*




So with the increase in StarOptions for WSJ owners and the further flexibility it essentially devalues what we own at the other resorts???  Will these also be Mandatory Options???


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## DeniseM (Nov 9, 2013)

Are you asking if the Staroptions will transfer when resold?  Vey good question...    Since there is no underlying deed, it seems like they would have to transfer?  

WSJ was out of sync with other resorts, because their Staroptions seems low in comparison to the other resorts, so I don't think this "devalues" other resorts - it just brings WSJ in line.


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## czar (Nov 9, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> Are you asking if the Staroptions will transfer when resold?  Vey good question...    Since there is no underlying deed, it seems like they would have to transfer?



I'm wondering how they'll value the HO to SO conversion. I also wonder if the HO will transfer at resale but if like voluntary resorts, the option to convert to SO or SP will disappear.


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## DeniseM (Nov 9, 2013)

HO? .......


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## SMHarman (Nov 9, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> Are you asking if the Staroptions will transfer when resold?  Vey good question...    Since there is no underlying deed, it seems like they would have to transfer?
> 
> WSJ was out of sync with other resorts, because their Staroptions seems low in comparison to the other resorts, so I don't think this "devalues" other resorts - it just brings WSJ in line.



We'll if all you own is home options then they can't take them away on resale. Else what is left?

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


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## czar (Nov 9, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> HO? .......



Home Options


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## DeniseM (Nov 9, 2013)

Why would there be a difference between Home Option and Star Option values?


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## czar (Nov 9, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> Why would there be a difference between Home Option and Star Option values?



There may not be, but if SO are not currently deeded and can change, then it stands to reason they might want to have flexibility with their value compared to SO's. For example, if CV had been built and sold this way before the recent SO increase, what would they have to do? Reissue deeds of some kind?  I may be overthinking it but why call them something different if they're not.


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## Mauiwmn (Nov 9, 2013)

These Home Options are a brilliant marketing move on the part of Starwood.  They upped all the WSJ SO and now by selling Home Options at Coral Vista, they have more Home Options to sell for each villa.  And if they sell partial weeks worth of Home Options, they get supplemental SVN fees.  Two owners could own 1 week of Home Options.  Lower ownership entry price points, as can sell in small increments of Home Options.

Example-
Coral Vista-2 Bedrm- Plat Plus-176,70O Home Options
Someone could purchase 148,100 Home Options which would get them a 2 Bedrm LO in Plat Plus Season elsewhere.  They pay 84% of a week's MF. (148.1/176.7). Starwood can then sell the remaining 28,600 Home Options to someone else.  

Potentially, more owners per week interval and more SVN fees collected.


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## tschwa2 (Nov 9, 2013)

czar said:


> I'm wondering how they'll value the HO to SO conversion. I also wonder if the HO will transfer at resale but if like voluntary resorts, the option to convert to SO or SP will disappear.



I'm still sticking with my original prediction. The HO's will transfer but you won't necessarily be able to exchange them as SO's in SVN and will be restricted to reserving a week or partial week at CV upon resale.


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## Mauiwmn (Nov 10, 2013)

*More info on changes*

I also found this on SVN site:

"Starwood Vacation Network Float Period

When confirming reservations eight (8) months or less prior to your desired arrival date, you can:

Check in any day of the week, in any Season and any Villa Type
Borrow StarOptions from your next Use Year

Starwood Vacation Network Options Period

When confirming reservations three (3) months or less prior to your desired arrival date, you can reserve:

Seven (7) consecutive nights or more
Nightly stays
Beginning or ending any day of the week
In any Season
In any Villa Type
Borrow StarOptions from your next Use Year"

Appears we can borrow Staroptions at 8 months now.  Surprised Starwood has not released this info in a newsletter.  No effective date on this, it is just listed as policy.

Was really hoping they would allow reserving stays of less then a week at the 8 month mark.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 10, 2013)

Mauiwmn said:


> These Home Options are a brilliant marketing move on the part of Starwood.  They upped all the WSJ SO and now by selling Home Options at Coral Vista, they have more Home Options to sell for each villa.  And if they sell partial weeks worth of Home Options, they get supplemental SVN fees.  Two owners could own 1 week of Home Options.  Lower ownership entry price points, as can sell in small increments of Home Options.
> 
> Example-
> Coral Vista-2 Bedrm- Plat Plus-176,70O Home Options
> ...



I'm largely with you here, I'd just comment on the "84% of a week's MF" part. You're still thinking in the "weeks" mindset.  When resorts in other systems are sold as points, the MF is typically a per point cost (how else could you do it given you're selling packages worth less than a week).  You take the total number of points the Phase is worth and divide it by the total maintenance costs...resulting in a per point MF (as opposed to a weeks system that takes the total costs and divides it by the number of weeks/units with some apportionment based on unit size).  

Why does this matter?  Because effectively the maintenance fee for a "week" stay will no longer be the same across all seasons as it is tied to the number of points required.  In a weeks system you pay the same exact maintenance fee regardless of the season (or in SVN parlance, the SVN point value).  In a points based system, the maintenance fee you effectively pay is much higher in a Platinum season than it is in a Silver season.  Therefore, ownership of 148,100 Coral Vista HO is likely to be high from a MF perspective.  Given MF are already pretty much the highest in the network (WKORV/N and HRA could be higher...hard to say given VGV is higher than those two but developer subsidy is keeping BV phase lower), Coral Vista is the LAST place I'd like to own ANY substantial number of points (once the subsidy disappears).  The only instance in which it makes sense is using your points at your home resort for a Gold Plus week (depending on the math).

Speaking of the math, let's look at a simple example to show just how drastic this could be.  Let's say, just for simplicity, that the Coral Vista phase is just a single 2-bedroom unit (you can extrapolate this out for the whole phase if you wish, but pretending it's just a single unit makes the math easier to do).  Let's also assume the MF will be identical to Bay Vista phase.  Here's how the math works:

WSJ BV Standard 2-Bedroom.  Total maintenance cost for the year = $90,018.24.  Divided by 52 weeks = MF of *$1,731.12 per week*.  (These numbers are based on MF reported in the 2012 MF thread).

Now let's look at what Coral Vista would look like as points.

WSJ CV Standard 2-Bedroom.  Assume same total maintenance cost of $90,018.24.  Now we need the total points (Home Options) to be sold for that 2-bedroom.  

20 Platinum Plus weeks x 176,700 = 3,534,000
15 Platinum weeks x 148,100 = 2,221,500
17 Gold Plus weeks x 95,700 = 1,626,900

Total Points (Home Options) = 7,382,400 = MF per point of $0.01219

MF for 176,700 (equivalent to a single Platinum Plus week) = $2,153.98 or *~24% higher* than what a weeks owner in BV would be paying.

MF for 148,1000 (equivalent to a single Platinum week) = $1,805.34 or *~4% higher* than what a weeks owner in BV would be paying.

MF for 95,700 (equivalent to a single Gold Plus week) = $1,166.59 or *~33% lower* than what a weeks owner in BV would be paying.

Granted, MFs still don't look horrible compared to WKORV/N and HRA, but this includes a substantial subsidy for a resort in active sales.  If I was to use the total MF for a VGV Phase 2-bedroom unit, it would be astronomical.


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## Mauiwmn (Nov 10, 2013)

ocdb8r said:


> Speaking of the math, let's look at a simple example to show just how drastic this could be.  Let's say, just for simplicity, that the Coral Vista phase is just a single 2-bedroom unit (you can extrapolate this out for the whole phase if you wish, but pretending it's just a single unit makes the math easier to do).  Let's also assume the MF will be identical to Bay Vista phase.  Here's how the math works:
> 
> WSJ BV Standard 2-Bedroom.  Total maintenance cost for the year = $90,018.24.  Divided by 52 weeks = MF of *$1,731.12 per week*.  (These numbers are based on MF reported in the 2012 MF thread).
> 
> ...



Ocdb8r,  thank you for this excellent points example.  You are correct,  I was still thinking in weeks.  Your example demonstrates how the points system tackles the MF and seasons issue.  Higher season owners simply pay more in the points system.  

As an owner of Platinum Plus weeks, the points system is not very attractive to me. Platinum Plus owners would pay a great deal more for MF per week in a points based system.

I do think Starwood will be successful selling points at Coral Vista though.  Think of all the existing Starwood owners that might need just a few thousand Staroptions to achieve Elite status (especially the 3 Star level) or to even out their ownership weeks.  Let the marketing begin.....


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## czar (Nov 10, 2013)

Yup it could be very attractive if it's much more flexible, and potential developer purchasers probably won't be looking at the maintenance fee disparity. 

I know for us, it's not feasible for me to take two straight weeks off of work, so just seeing two weeks is not a great idea because it will be a hassle to figure out what to do with the remaining days; however, the ability to purchase enough to stay 10 days would be a real benefit, especially if there's the potential to add more days on later if I have more flexibility, or to sell just a few days on resale. That resale piece will make this puzzle very interesting.

I also wonder what this will do to availability blocks since people will be able to check in on any day now for any period of time.

Boy, we were all set on purchasing a three bedroom Bay Vista unit, but now this throws a wrench into things!


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## GregT (Nov 10, 2013)

Mauiwmn said:


> When confirming *reservations eight (8) months or less *prior to your desired arrival date, you can:
> 
> Check in any day of the week, in any Season and any Villa Type
> *Borrow StarOptions from your next Use Year*



This is new also, isn't it?

Home Options do look/feel like Trust Points in the Marriott System -- or even more specifically, like Disney Points, where there is a home resort booking advantage for some period, then become straight points.  Trust Points do not (yet) have a discernible home resort booking advantage.

Starwood's recent change to allow banking is also consistent with some of these other systems.

I don't think we can get to a 3,000 point thread -- and agree with others, that if logic was a requirement for posting, TUG probably would have ceased to exist years ago.   And I would have had my membership revoked.

Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg


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## Mauiwmn (Nov 10, 2013)

*Clarification on borrowing SO at 8 months*



Mauiwmn said:


> I also found this on SVN site:
> 
> "Starwood Vacation Network Float Period
> 
> ...



I spoke with a SVN rep this morning and confirmed with her supv that the above information on the SVN web site is an error.  They have *not* made changes regarding borrowing at the 8 month mark.  They will remove the erroneous information from the web site shortly.

Who knew, Starwood can make an error????


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## alwysonvac (Nov 10, 2013)

Mauiwmn said:


> I spoke with a SVN rep this morning and confirmed with her supv that the above information on the SVN web site is an error.  They have *not* made changes regarding borrowing at the 8 month mark.  They will remove the erroneous information from the web site shortly.
> 
> Who knew, Starwood can make an error????



Darn, that would have be_en_ a nice option.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 10, 2013)

tschwa2 said:


> I'm still sticking with my original prediction. The HO's will transfer but you won't necessarily be able to exchange them as SO's in SVN and will be restricted to reserving a week or partial week at CV upon resale.



Then a bigger issue comes in to play. How do those HOs trade through II? Especially if one only had enough to book a partial week?


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## ocdb8r (Nov 10, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> Then a bigger issue comes in to play. How do those HOs trade through II? Especially if one only had enough to book a partial week?



II has dealt with this before with other point systems like Worldmark and owners in the new Marriott points system.  II will somehow come up with a point value required for a week in the various sized units...for Marriott they also adjust the points required based on season.  They also introduced partial week stays (although availability for these in II is few and far between).  Bottom line, II can work this out (although I find the Mariott points version very unattractive).


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## ocdb8r (Nov 10, 2013)

Mauiwmn said:


> Ocdb8r,  thank you for this excellent points example.  You are correct,  I was still thinking in weeks.  Your example demonstrates how the points system tackles the MF and seasons issue.  Higher season owners simply pay more in the points system.
> 
> As an owner of Platinum Plus weeks, the points system is not very attractive to me. Platinum Plus owners would pay a great deal more for MF per week in a points based system.
> 
> I do think Starwood will be successful selling points at Coral Vista though.  Think of all the existing Starwood owners that might need just a few thousand Staroptions to achieve Elite status (especially the 3 Star level) or to even out their ownership weeks.  Let the marketing begin.....



I agree that they'll likely be successful (apparently Marriott has been) which is what leads me to wonder if this will be limited to CV for very long.

The difference in MFs was a point of significant discussion when Marriott went through this.  While it is obviously a drawback for Platinum owners compared to the weeks system, I'm of the opinion that it's actually more fair and solves some of the problems faced by resorts with significant seasonal shifts (which, admittedly, does not plague St. John as much as others).  You don't have silver week owners dropping like flies because they refuse to pay a MF equal to a prime ski week for say a mud week at a ski resort.


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## Ken555 (Nov 10, 2013)

> Check in any day of the week, in any Season and any Villa Type



Am I missing something? This feature has been around for years. You just need to check-in or out on a Fri, Sat, or Sun. I didn't see the updated (and, at least in part, incorrect...as per an earlier post) version say anything about check-out "any day of the week".


Sent from my iPad


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## Mauiwmn (Nov 10, 2013)

That part was not anything new.  I had just quoted the entire SVN passage  regarding 8 month reservations.

The new Coral Vista owners can check in or out on any day at any time during the reservations process due to the new Home Options system not being week based.


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## alohakevin (Nov 10, 2013)

Owners update svv [alleged big changes]
We were told that starting in 2013 there will be no more resort specific deeded weeks sold. You will purchase a deeded week of a pool of properties, you will own little pieces of everything is the way i understood it. So from then on you will purchase points and maintenance fees will be based on how many points you have and not the individual properties. Apparently its similiar to marriott. There will be no more owners window for reservations with the new purchases everyone will have to book 8 months out or less




This was a post from Nov 2012 after we attended an owners update. Is it possible they may be moving to points? Seems to keep popping up one way or another


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 11, 2013)

In Speculation Land - let's say they move to points (btw, SOs are points, and referred in OM as StarOption Points and effectively work as such via SVN for both Home and non-Home resort).  To me (IMO) - this would only work (well) if they plan to expand  (Marriott has many more resorts for this model) - this could be a good thing for us.


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## czar (Nov 11, 2013)

From SVO Direct Sales:

For Coral Vista, the building ownership is held in a trust and the points for Coral Vista represent interests in the trust, instead of deeded villas  as in the other sections of Westin St. John.  Instead of selling deeded weeks we are selling points, which can be used in the following seasons:  Diamond Season 1 thru 6, and Resort Season 1 thru 8.

2BR and Studio are the villa sizes offered (no 1BR or 3BR villas) in Coral Vista.  The top 2 demand seasons for 2BR villas are:

Diamond 1: 176,000 Star Options per week of 2BR use:  $61,000
Diamond 2: 148,100 Star Options per week of 2BR use:  $51,100

For summer season 2BR usage the seasons are:

Resort 1 (weeks 19-23, 31-33): 148,100 Star Options per week of 2BR use: $45,700
Resort 1 (weeks 24-30): 148,100 Star Options per week of 2BR use:  $49,500


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## dioxide45 (Nov 11, 2013)

They key is where and how did they set this trust up. Is it setup as a Land Trust in Orange County Florida, like the MVC Trust for Marriott? I did a quick search on the Orange County Comptrollers website and couldn't find anything, but didn't spend a lot of time.

If it is setup like Marriott's trust. They could convey other properties and not just the on in the USVI. Marriott has conveyed Frenchman's Cove on St Thomas to their trust in Orange County Florida.

If they convey other properties, they could simply begin to sell other HOs at other resorts to new buyers. Marriott took a long time to add their St Thomas property to their trust, so it seems like SVO has the hard part behind them. Adding domestic USA resorts should be easy. As long as they setup their trust similar to Marriott's.


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## pathways25 (Nov 11, 2013)

czar said:


> From SVO Direct Sales:
> 
> For Coral Vista, the building ownership is held in a trust and the points for Coral Vista represent interests in the trust, instead of deeded villas  as in the other sections of Westin St. John.  Instead of selling deeded weeks we are selling points, which can be used in the following seasons:  Diamond Season 1 thru 6, and Resort Season 1 thru 8.
> 
> ...



Wow, this sounds really complicated.  Instead of keeping the cost per point constant and varying the number of points needed per night throughout the year, they're keeping the points constant and varying the upfront price per point.  This means that your home season will be far narrower than under the weeks model.  It sounds like there are 14 different "seasons" so given the examples cited above, those two seasons are 8 and 7 weeks respectively, there must be several 1 week seasons like 7, 51 and 52.

Your points may "float", but if the season is very narrow, you'll have the dual negatives of having very limited choice and no pre-booked reservation (like you would with a fixed week).


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## czar (Nov 11, 2013)

pathways25 said:


> Wow, this sounds really complicated.  Instead of keeping the cost per point constant and varying the number of points needed per night throughout the year, they're keeping the points constant and varying the upfront price per point.  This means that your home season will be far narrower than under the weeks model.  It sounds like there are 14 different "seasons" so given the examples cited above, those two seasons are 8 and 7 weeks respectively, there must be several 1 week seasons like 7, 51 and 52.
> 
> Your points may "float", but if the season is very narrow, you'll have the dual negatives of having very limited choice and no pre-booked reservation (like you would with a fixed week).



Yes, here is how it was explained to me. First, just be aware that this came from direct sales and not from somebody on St. John. According to direct sales, they are not currently allowed to sell coral Vista weeks.

Here's how they explained that it will work. First, you have to buy a week. All points will be sold in one week chunks. Your week is purchased during a home resort priority, and as you outlined above, there are many different home resort periods. You may call and reserve during your home resort priority one year in advance. That window ranges from 12 months to 10 months.  The reason they're saying it's more flexible is because you don't have home priority based on Villa size; instead, you can use your points during your home resort priority to book whatever is available based on the number of points you have. So, for example, if you purchased a two bedroom amount of points, you could book longer than one week in a one bedroom villa during your resort home priority period, if it is available. Once the home resort priority window ends, your home options automatically convert to star options, and you may use the star options as everyone uses them right now. I asked if the home option and star option numbers were equivalent, and the gentleman with whom I spoke said he was not sure.  

While this sounds like you have a little bit more flexibility in terms of being able to choose your villa size, it does sound much more restricted in terms of the time frames in which he may use them, and also there may not be a guarantee that you get the Villa type you want.

Further, for what it is worth, I asked if this is the direction in which Starwood was headed. He explained to me that they decided to test out this new strategy in coral Vista as a new build, and they want to see how it goes. He stated that his information is that if this model works well, they would try to use it for future builds. Again, take that for what it's worth.


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## Mauiwmn (Nov 11, 2013)

czar said:


> From SVO Direct Sales:
> 
> For Coral Vista, the building ownership is held in a trust and the points for Coral Vista represent interests in the trust, instead of deeded villas  as in the other sections of Westin St. John.  Instead of selling deeded weeks we are selling points, which can be used in the following seasons:  Diamond Season 1 thru 6, and Resort Season 1 thru 8.
> 
> ...



This new system with so many seasons appears to be a lot like Hyatt.   We considered buying Hyatt as we like the product/properties, but the complexity of the seasons scared us away.

I am surprised as well that they are charging different prices for the same amount of Staroptions that aren't view or event week defined.  Guess this was the only way they could charge different prices for so many seasons.

It will be interesting to see if there will be availability for reservations during  the float period or not at Coral Vista.


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## DeniseM (Nov 11, 2013)

> Wow, this sounds really complicated.


Oh Geez....someone else is going to have to write the FAQ for this exciting new program.


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## pathways25 (Nov 11, 2013)

czar said:


> Yes, here is how it was explained to me. First, just be aware that this came from direct sales and not from somebody on St. John. According to direct sales, they are not currently allowed to sell coral Vista weeks.
> 
> Here's how they explained that it will work. First, you have to buy a week. All points will be sold in one week chunks. Your week is purchased during a home resort priority, and as you outlined above, there are many different home resort periods. You may call and reserve during your home resort priority one year in advance. That window ranges from 12 months to 10 months.  The reason they're saying it's more flexible is because you don't have home priority based on Villa size; instead, you can use your points during your home resort priority to book whatever is available based on the number of points you have. So, for example, if you purchased a two bedroom amount of points, you could book longer than one week in a one bedroom villa during your resort home priority period, if it is available. Once the home resort priority window ends, your home options automatically convert to star options, and you may use the star options as everyone uses them right now. I asked if the home option and star option numbers were equivalent, and the gentleman with whom I spoke said he was not sure.
> 
> ...



Thanks for expanding on your earlier post.  

It makes sense now if have to buy an underlying week in units of 1 week.  If CV is voluntary (probably likely), then buying resale means you give up the ability to use SO's at other SVN resorts and perhaps you even lose the ability to book outside of your own 1/14 season.  Did they say what happens between 10 months and 8 months?

I wonder if resales can bank their unused points.  If not, then you'll almost certainly be throwing away points every year that you don't reserve your deeded unit size for exactly 1 week.  Overall, I think this points program may be very difficult to make use of (other than using it for 1 full week in your deeded unit size in your deeded season) given all of the restrictions.


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## czar (Nov 11, 2013)

pathways25 said:


> Thanks for expanding on your earlier post.
> 
> It makes sense now if have to buy an underlying week in units of 1 week.  If CV is voluntary (probably likely), then buying resale means you give up the ability to use SO's at other SVN resorts and perhaps you even lose the ability to book outside of your own 1/14 season.  Did they say what happens between 10 months and 8 months?
> 
> I wonder if resales can bank their unused points.  If not, then you'll almost certainly be throwing away points every year that you don't reserve your deeded unit size for exactly 1 week.  Overall, I think this points program may be very difficult to make use of (other than using it for 1 full week in your deeded unit size in your deeded season) given all of the restrictions.



No, he did not explain what happens in the interim period between 10-8 months.  Who knows, he may have explained it to me wrong, or, what I was thinking while I was waiting on hold for him, was that perhaps there was some kind of tiered priority system, where after that ten-month Mark, there was still two months of priority above regular star options reservations. It just seems awfully restrictive to be in these very short windows of time, so it made me think there must be some other opportunity or perk. Every time I asked a question, he would need to put me on hold and ask someone, so I didn't think it was worth spending more time on it since it was clear to me this was not it did not seem beneficial for what we were looking for.  Overall, he was very clear to me about being unsure of the program since it's so new.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 11, 2013)

ocdb8r said:


> II has dealt with this before with other point systems like Worldmark and owners in the new Marriott points system.  II will somehow come up with a point value required for a week in the various sized units...for Marriott they also adjust the points required based on season.  They also introduced partial week stays (although availability for these in II is few and far between).  Bottom line, II can work this out (although I find the Mariott points version very unattractive).



While II does have ShortStay and other poitns systems. I suspect that they still deal in 100% weeks based ownerships. While you can book a ShortStay exchnage, it still ends up being a weeks based reservation. A points user that books an exchange with points, II still gets a week (or more). They don't handle partial weeks at all.

Now I am sure it will be possible for someone to use HOs for an II exchnage. Though SVO will probably end up giving II some other whole week, perhaps at some other resorts, since they control the actual deposit. Though II will still get a whole week, even though the owner of the HOs may only have enough for a few days.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 12, 2013)

czar said:


> Here's how they explained that it will work. First, you have to buy a week. All points will be sold in one week chunks.



I'm wondering if this is another "if the salesperson is talking..." moment given the communication from the Board at VGV has been that SVO will sell small point packages to us so we can extend our stay by a few days.  No real way to know until we start seeing some details in print.  However, I fail to see the advantage of a switch to a point system if you're still being forced to buy in "week" intervals.

I find it odd SVO would dream up such a complex system (although, given their track record, maybe not surprising).


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## lizap (Nov 12, 2013)

Funny that information that is so speculative could generate this much discussion..



ocdb8r said:


> I'm wondering if this is another "if the salesperson is talking..." moment given the communication from the Board at VGV has been that SVO will sell small point packages to us so we can extend our stay by a few days.  No real way to know until we start seeing some details in print.  However, I fail to see the advantage of a switch to a point system if you're still being forced to buy in "week" intervals.
> 
> I find it odd SVO would dream up such a complex system (although, given their track record, maybe not surprising).


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 12, 2013)

The speculation is interesting - but this is really in response to the WSJ VGV BOD letter to Owners that there is going to be some type of system for the CV phase  that is different than other phases (and perhaps other resorts).  As I know Bob, he is not misinterpreting or misrepresenting anything and has stayed vague for a reason (... not rolled out yet...).

As mentioned - the SVN system is already a points system (SO points) that are associated with deeds (but not the same as a traditional points system in other systems).

From this, two things are assured:
1) Somehow the CV phase will be dealt with differently than other resorts (esp VGV and BV phases)

2) Anything beyond this is pure speculation until rolled out

I speculate that SVO will try and imitate Marriotts' DC model in some fashion, but I believe that approach is flawed unless SVO can build more resorts in the future (or I am missing something that would have to do with somehow converting and altering the CCRs at existing resorts to make this new model feasible).  IMO


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## Ken555 (Nov 12, 2013)

lizap said:


> Funny that information that is so speculative could generate this much discussion..



Yup. It's TUG, but still amazing...


Sent from my iPad


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## LisaRex (Nov 12, 2013)

Complete speculation on my part:

Even though SVO is a profitable exercise for Starwood, publicly traded companies aren't happy maintaining status quo.  Stockholders want to see growth.  Growth = higher stock prices = bigger payoff for stockholders.  Growth also = bigger salaries + higher bonuses for the execs who run the company.  So growing is a win/win for business. 

So what is SVO to do if they can't or won't expand? After all, new resorts is where the big money is. Well, for 5 years, they significantly increased MFs.  I'm sure their theory was to get through the economic storm... and then start building again when the economy recovered.  Trouble is, the economy never fully recovered.  

They could continue to increase MFs, but they discovered the hard way that once MFs reach a certain point, which is basically current rental rates, they will start to see delinquencies.  Makes sense, no? And with the vast majority of their resorts having high/low seasons, they can't significantly exceed low season rental rates because up to 1/4 of their owners will bail.  This explains why WLR's MFs are still quite reasonable compared to, say WSJ.  Rental rates will always dictate what an owner perceives as "fair."

So what to do? 

1)  Raise SVN fees. Captive audience, no brainer.  Implemented throughout the years, and most recently in 2014. 

2) Allow SO banking. Why let unused SOs expire when they can allow owners to extend them...for a $99 fee?  No skin off their teeth, and anything they raise is pure profit.  Implemented in 2012. 

3) Allow owners to borrow next year's SOs....for a fee.  Once again, no skin off their teeth.  They get owners to pre-pay next year's MFs, so they get the float + they collect another "just because we can" fee.  Rumor has it that this is coming soon. 

4) Convert to a points system a la Marriott.   Why? Well, for one, to break the correlation/comparison between MFs and rental rates.  It makes it much more difficult to determine if you're getting a good deal or not, especially when they do creative things like making a studio IV unit the base rate (e.g. 67,100 SOs), then requiring additional SOs for additional bedrooms, pool view, OV/OF views, etc. (Can you hear the agent now, "For only 40,000 additional points, you can upgrade to a guaranteed ocean view unit."  The caller will do a quick calculation in his head, "Gosh, that will only cost me another $500!" without calculating the real overall price.  (Don't we do this all the time when we "forget" how much we paid to own a place, and only focus on the MFs?) 

CV is a great place to start because they have distinct seasons.  A points program is a great way to spread out the pain among the owners of different seasons. Nobody is a "silver" owner anymore.  They are a SVO Points member and you sell them x number of SOs. If the only thing that they can get with that amount is a week in low season, or 3 days in platinum plus season, so be it.  They can always supplement what they have by banking (for a fee) or borrowing (for a fee)...and if they allow it, buying extra points (at a higher rate than if they'd bought them outright, of course)!

It'll be interesting to see how this all unfolds.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 12, 2013)

DavidnRobin said:


> The speculation is interesting - but this is really in response to the WSJ VGV BOD letter to Owners that there is going to be some type of system for the CV phase  that is different than other phases (and perhaps other resorts).  As I know Bob, he is not misinterpreting or misrepresenting anything and has stayed vague for a reason (... not rolled out yet...).
> 
> As mentioned - the SVN system is already a points system (SO points) that are associated with deeds (but not the same as a traditional points system in other systems).
> 
> ...



For what it's worth, over on the Marriott board we speculated based on far less than what was stated in the WSJ VGV BOD letter that you guys are referencing - at least you have something in writing from an official SW source.  Also, although quite a bit of our speculation got thrown out the window when Marriott finally introduced its Points system, we were helped a great deal by our speculation because it gave us knowledge beforehand of other points systems' details that we used to flesh out Marriott's sparse (putting it kindly) info release.  The Marriott board went nutty enough when Marriott announced - I can't imagine the conniption fits if we hadn't talked about it at all beforehand!

FYI, this might be getting too picky for your thread here but might help in the future if SW is going the way of Points - "DVC" is the Disney Vacation Club points system; Marriott's is referred to on TUG as "DC" (Destination Club.)

Good luck to all you SW owners.


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 12, 2013)

Thanks Susan - I edited my post and made it to reflect that Marriotts point system is DC.
I enjoyed reading the Marriott board when all this was happening, and glad I owned SW.

I am a 'buy where you want to go' person - and could walk away if necessary - so all of this has little impact on me.

LR - big corps do not always make the best decisions, but can be counted on attempting to benefit themselves over their 'customers' (e.g. squeezing what blood they can get away with...) that may result in an inferior product that hurts them in the long-run (risk/reward balance) - but the 100s of SVPs and above get to walk away with big severence packages (almost assurredly) when that happens anyway...

I would be happy to eliminate my SVN fees - I wonder at what point one can do this if they get unreasonably high?  What happens if I refuse to pay my SVN fees - while paying my MFs?


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## LisaRex (Nov 12, 2013)

DavidnRobin said:


> I would be happy to eliminate my SVN fees - I wonder at what point one can do this if they get unreasonably high?  What happens if I refuse to pay my SVN fees - while paying my MFs?



They are already unreasonably high for EOY owners.  My EOY Bella MFs and taxes are $565 and the SVN fee is $134, making the SVN fee a whopping 20% of the total.

Oh, and the mandatory resorts have it written in the OA that membership in the Club is compulsory, that's where we get the "mandatory" nomenclature.  I'd imagine if you quit paying it, they'd have grounds to shut you out of your VOI and eventually foreclose. 

Yippee!


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## PamMo (Nov 12, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> For what it's worth, over on the Marriott board we speculated based on far less...



That's exactly what I've been thinking. It seems pretty clear that some sort of new points system is coming. And it will cost extra to join this great new "club". I own a few Marriott weeks, and joined the Destination Club when it rolled out, thinking I might benefit from the flexibility. It turned out to be a total waste of money for me, because we always use our weeks or work out direct owner-to-owner trades. Silly me. Another layer of management/club fees is overkill when you already own where you want to vacation. I can't see dumping my Maui and Harborside weeks into total points.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 13, 2013)

DavidnRobin said:


> I speculate that SVO will try and imitate Marriotts' DC model in some fashion, but I believe that approach is flawed unless SVO can build more resorts in the future (or I am missing something that would have to do with somehow converting and altering the CCRs at existing resorts to make this new model feasible).  IMO



I don't know enough about the CCRs to be sure, but what Marriott effectively did was declare all their Marriott owned units into a "trust."  They then sell points from the trust and owners of those trust points can reserve any of the weeks owned by the trust.  In the case of SVO, based on what we know, 100% of the CV phase could be in such a trust...but I don't know what would stop SVO from throwing in any other weeks they own from ROFR or foreclosure...or future phases at existing resorts.  Think about it, there's probably plenty of Princeville, Lagunamar, Desert Willows and Broadway Plantation weeks still sitting in their coffers.  They've been very active on the ROFR front for Kaanapali (maybe now we know why) so they've got some inventory there, plus they've got the additional land to build if selling points proves successful.  Harborside would remain the large hole but a Phase III has been debated there for some time...if the economy recovers it could be resurrected.  The only thing I really don't know about is the ski resorts.  No idea what, if anything, SVO still has in inventory.

The other element of the equation is existing owners.  At the same time Marriott created the "trust" (points selling) side of their "destination club", they created a system where :legacy" weeks owners could trade their week for destination club points (on a year-by-year basis, not permanently) by being a member of their DC and paying a yearly membership fee.  Sound famliar?  It should, SVO already has this piece of the puzzle with SVN...Marriott did not have such a program at the time.

Marriott's DC then works by allowing the flow of inventory between the "trust" side of the DC and the "legacy" weeks side.  Just exactly how this inventory flows is still a source of debate on the Marriott board (and it's not particularly transparent), but so far it's been fairly smooth.  SVO could institute a similar system, gaining trust point owners access to resorts where the trust doesn't actually own weeks (and, reciprocally, providing access to the resorts where the trust owns 100% of the weeks, such as the CV phase of WSJ).

That's a long-winded explanation of how SVO could emulate the Marriott system.  Arguably they are in an even better situation than Marriott was because: 1) They already have SVN up and running and a lot of experience managing the points process; 2) Several popular resorts are obligated in their CCRs to be part of SVN (Marriott doesn't have this luxury); and 3) SVN still owns substantial inventory at a higher percentage of their resorts (the majority of Marriott resorts were sold out when they created the DC).


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## lizap (Nov 13, 2013)

Pure speculation...



ocdb8r said:


> I don't know enough about the CCRs to be sure, but what Marriott effectively did was declare all their Marriott owned units into a "trust."  They then sell points from the trust and owners of those trust points can reserve any of the weeks owned by the trust.  In the case of SVO, based on what we know, 100% of the CV phase could be in such a trust...but I don't know what would stop SVO from throwing in any other weeks they own from ROFR or foreclosure...or future phases at existing resorts.  Think about it, there's probably plenty of Princeville, Lagunamar, Desert Willows and Broadway Plantation weeks still sitting in their coffers.  They've been very active on the ROFR front for Kaanapali (maybe now we know why) so they've got some inventory there, plus they've got the additional land to build if selling points proves successful.  Harborside would remain the large hole but a Phase III has been debated there for some time...if the economy recovers it could be resurrected.  The only thing I really don't know about is the ski resorts.  No idea what, if anything, SVO still has in inventory.
> 
> The other element of the equation is existing owners.  At the same time Marriott created the "trust" (points selling) side of their "destination club", they created a system where :legacy" weeks owners could trade their week for destination club points (on a year-by-year basis, not permanently) by being a member of their DC and paying a yearly membership fee.  Sound famliar?  It should, SVO already has this piece of the puzzle with SVN...Marriott did not have such a program at the time.
> 
> ...


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## optimist (Nov 13, 2013)

ocdb8r said:


> I don't know enough about the CCRs to be sure, but what Marriott effectively did was declare all their Marriott owned units into a "trust."  They then sell points from the trust and owners of those trust points can reserve any of the weeks owned by the trust.  In the case of SVO, based on what we know, 100% of the CV phase could be in such a trust...but I don't know what would stop SVO from throwing in any other weeks they own from ROFR or foreclosure...or future phases at existing resorts.  Think about it, there's probably plenty of Princeville, Lagunamar, Desert Willows and Broadway Plantation weeks still sitting in their coffers.  They've been very active on the ROFR front for Kaanapali (maybe now we know why) so they've got some inventory there, plus they've got the additional land to build if selling points proves successful.  Harborside would remain the large hole but a Phase III has been debated there for some time...if the economy recovers it could be resurrected.  The only thing I really don't know about is the ski resorts.  No idea what, if anything, SVO still has in inventory.
> 
> The other element of the equation is existing owners.  At the same time Marriott created the "trust" (points selling) side of their "destination club", they created a system where :legacy" weeks owners could trade their week for destination club points (on a year-by-year basis, not permanently) by being a member of their DC and paying a yearly membership fee.  Sound famliar?  It should, SVO already has this piece of the puzzle with SVN...Marriott did not have such a program at the time.
> 
> ...



To me, this sounds like excellent deductive reasoning. 

Another reason I know major changes are in the works is that I just bought starwood. I am always buying high and selling low


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## SMHarman (Nov 13, 2013)

optimist said:


> To me, this sounds like excellent deductive reasoning.
> 
> Another reason I know major changes are in the works is that I just bought starwood. I am always buying high and selling low



But unless I am reading it wrong, if you look at MVO those who have good weeks prior to DC are still in a good position.


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 13, 2013)

I think it is clear by now that all of this is speculation, but I like the analysis by ocdb8r

...buy where you want to go...


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## SMHarman (Nov 13, 2013)

DavidnRobin said:


> I think it is clear by now that all of this is speculation, but I like the analysis by ocdb8r
> 
> ...buy where you want to go...


Of course Marriott built ROFR into all resorts.

This has meant they are populating the trust by pulling prime weeks off the resale market and into the trust, then they can resell them as points, also improving trust availability at resorts.

Unless SVO starts actually bidding on ebay and buying back units etc

So, wheras MVC can ROFR with ease, you will still be able to buy where you want to go in SVO without Starwood ripping all the good weeks into the trust.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 14, 2013)

Sorry to anyone all my "speculation" offends...to me this is often the most interesting part of TUG.  I've tried not to say anything to outlandish.

I agree, buy where you want to go.  Be happy if you are able to get some additional flexibility for trading.  Owners of prime weeks in prime locations will always do well (except, perhaps, in the MF arena).  

The only real losers when Marriott switched over were those who had bought and been using bronze and silver weeks to trade for gold and platinum weeks (which many were doing given Marriott exclusively used II, which was a week for week set-up, and included a "Marriott Preference" that often trumped trading power).  While that whole avenue still exists, some of those opportunities dried up as a chunk of "trading" activity switched to Marriott's DC (which is not a good option for bronze and silver week owners as the points you receive in that system reflected the actual demand of the weeks you owned).


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