# US public education



## Nolathyme (May 23, 2014)

I have 2 toddlers soon to be attending public school. It’s been a while since I’ve been in public school. How has education changed in the last 30 years? I’ve read that the US has been falling behind other countries. I read a story about a kindergarten-first grade teacher who appeared on the Today show who quit because she didn’t like the concentration put on test taking, Are schools better, worse or different?


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## DeniseM (May 23, 2014)

Every school, in every district, in every neighborhood is different, so there is no one-size-fits-all answer to your question.  If you go online, you can probably find reviews for the schools in your neighborhood.

Here is the difference in the US and other countries:

-In the US, every single child can go to school regardless of their ability to pay, intellect, or native language.  This is simply not true in many other countries.  

-When you only accept the cream of the crop, you are going to have outstanding results.  When you educate everyone, you will have a wide range of results.


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## bogey21 (May 23, 2014)

I think what Denise says is 100% true.  Thus as a parent it is incumbent on you to make sure you get your child in the right school for them be it private, public, Christian, Catholic, Home School, or what ever.  If you have to move, move.  If you have to borrow money (as I did for my kids), borrow money.  Just don't go along for the ride.  

George


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## e.bram (May 23, 2014)

Schools are better now. 50 years ago top schools(Ivys, Stanford, MIT, Caltech) would admit 25 % of their applicants, now only about 5%.


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## vacationhopeful (May 23, 2014)

You are in Maryland - my sister MOVED to another house to a better school district within MD-- she did a couple of years in private (church) school and then spent a good year, looking for a good house in the BEST SCHOOL DISTRICT. Bye, Bye Bowie; Hello, Horse Heaven. Different counties in MD. PM me if you need to know her final choice of "district".


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## Tia (May 24, 2014)

Just my 2cents


My two are in their early 20's now so past K-12, thankfully. I learned early on, much to my shock,  to not trust  public schools in my area to do what's right for your child sadly. Parents have to be paying attention , asking questions and pushing for what your child needs or they can fall into  cracks in the system that is made for cookie cutter type results.  

My kids attended the right K-12 schools but still... There are exceptional teachers and those in the know make sure their kids get them. One middle school principle here was rearranging teachers in her school to her own kids benefits :annoyed:


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## siesta (May 24, 2014)

deleted ...


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## Rose Pink (May 24, 2014)

It's been awhile since my children were in K-12.  What I learned back then is that test results for public schools follow socio-economic areas.  IOW, the wealthier areas will have the schools with the higher test scores.  I briefly worked as a substitute teacher.  I found that the children in the higher ranked schools were (generally) better behaved.  Where the parents had higher expectations, the schools followed.  If parents do not value education, their children aren't likely to, either.  Bottom line, get involved in your child's school.  Join the PTA.  Serve on the committees.  Attend school events.  Be sure the administration and the staff know who you are.  Donate time and resouces to the classroom.  Be the chaperone on field trips.  Be a room/class parent that helps with the parties, etc.  Know what your child's homework assignments are.  Make certain your child knows you value education.  

School is not daycare.  You, your child, and the teacher are a team.  It is as much your parental responsiblity to be informed as it is the school's job to inform.  Be proactive.  Ask, don't wait to be told.

Like others have mentioned, the better schools may be out of your area.  I am one of those moms who insisted on moving the family so my children would have a better school.  Not everyone can do that, however.  I was chided for not staying put and making the local school better but I decided that was more than I could handle, so we moved.  If a family cannot afford to relocate or bus or carpool then do whatever you can do to be involved in your child's school community.  It will make a difference.  Some very good people came from humble circumstances.


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## ondeadlin (May 24, 2014)

It's really impossible to speak in generalities of U.S. public education.  

This is because our k-12 systems are almost all locally controlled.  So, what you really want to be asking is, how good is my local school district AND if it's not good enough, am I willing to move to a better district or pay for private school?

My local district is very good.  It's a big part of why we moved where we live.


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## SMHarman (May 24, 2014)

DeniseM said:
			
		

> Here is the difference in the US and other countries:
> 
> -In the US, every single child can go to school regardless of their ability to pay, intellect, or native language.  This is simply not true in many other countries.


24 other countries achieve this goal. Many with better outcomes than the US. 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_education

State and local funding in the US often mean that outcomes vary my local demographic far more than they should. 

A well funded PA that understands the local budget process can make a massive impact on a school allowing the Scholl budget to be devoted to teaching staff and using PA money to fill other requirements. 

Schools around here expect that parents donate about $2500 a year to the PA. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


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## SMHarman (May 24, 2014)

e.bram said:


> Schools are better now. 50 years ago top schools(Ivys, Stanford, MIT, Caltech) would admit 25 % of their applicants, now only about 5%.



From a pool of global applicants. 
How many were applying from China 50 years ago. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


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## e.bram (May 24, 2014)

Your kids are better off being at the top a lower ranked school, than being in the middle of a highly ranked school, to be admitted to a top university.

"Better to be first in a small town in the provinces than second in Rome!"(J. Caesar)


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## VegasBella (May 24, 2014)

I've done a lot of research and I've concluded that as long as I can afford it, my son will go to a high-achieving, non-religious private school. 

If we can't afford private, then he'll go to the highest-achieving public schools in the county. 

The only reasons he'd go to a lower-performing public school would be social or athletic reasons. I'm not going to send him to an average or below-average public school without a really good reason. 


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## VegasBella (May 24, 2014)

e.bram said:


> Your kids are better off being at the top a lower ranked school, than being in the middle of a highly ranked school, to be admitted to a top university.
> 
> 
> 
> "Better to be first in a small town in the provinces than second in Rome!"(J. Caesar)




That logic only applies to senior year in high school, not any other year of education. 



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## e.bram (May 24, 2014)

I would think high class standing would depend on all 3.5 HS years. The last semester of HS don't count. University applications have already been sent out.


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## ScoopKona (May 25, 2014)

e.bram said:


> Your kids are better off being at the top a lower ranked school, than being in the middle of a highly ranked school, to be admitted to a top university.
> 
> "Better to be first in a small town in the provinces than second in Rome!"(J. Caesar)




I've been watching education take a nosedive in this country for the last 20 years. This Common Core nonsense is ruining everything that made our public schools great (seriously, at one time they were the envy of the world).

Basically, Common Core is turning our schools into what they have in Japan. Every Japanese kid has English drilled into them their entire school career. And almost none of them can speak English worth a damn. All they can do is pass the tests that let them move on. Those that don't commit suicide in frightening numbers. It's a stupid way of doing things -- and with all the things we COULD have done, we chose the one thing that takes real learning out of our schools -- standardized tests.

I consider myself unbelievably lucky that I not only attended schools in a great area, I also attended schools at a great time. "Teach them how to _learn_ and they're set for life. We need a generation of critical thinkers. Education is the best provision for old age."

That's what I learned in school. I truly pity the kids today who aren't going to get that kind of education. These kids hate school and they hate all the damned tests. And I don't blame them.


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## simpsontruckdriver (May 25, 2014)

The other downfall to American schools: yearly achievement tests, which determine school rank and whether the kid moves on. When I was in school (1977-1991), there were no yearly tests other than final exams, and schools were good. With the yearly tests, many teachers don't teach anything BUT the test. This year's FCAT (Florida Comprehensive Achievement Test) results came out, and a whopping 55% of 3rd graders passed.

In the end, the comprehensive achievement tests do more harm than good, they don't measure a school's success, and they are a burden on both teachers and students. In other words, the state - not local - controls the schools through the tests mandated by the US Government. If you are looking for a good school system, the test scores are a small portion of the "equation".

TS


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## CarolF (May 25, 2014)

swj said:


> I have 2 toddlers soon to be attending public school. It’s been a while since I’ve been in public school. How has education changed in the last 30 years? I’ve read that the US has been falling behind other countries.



Here's The New Ranking Of Top Countries In Reading, Science, And Maths
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/pisa-rankings-2013-12

and this report was recently released

US students rank better internationally on new problem solving test than they do on conventional math and reading exams
http://educationbythenumbers.org/co...ng-test-conventional-math-reading-tests_1084/


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## bogey21 (May 25, 2014)

ScoopLV said:


> I consider myself unbelievably lucky that I not only attended schools in a great area, I also attended schools at a great time. "Teach them how to _learn_ and they're set for life. We need a generation of critical thinkers. Education is the best provision for old age."



Same deal with me.  I graduated from High School in 1953.  It was a good School District because teachers had the final say.  Total local control (Heck, I'm not sure the Department of Education even existed back then.)  Never a final exam in my 12 years of undergraduate school.  No standardized tests until the SATs.  The teacher decided if a student should move on to the next grade or not.  Parents accepted their decisions.

George


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## e.bram (May 25, 2014)

Schools and teachers will not make a bright person dull or a dull person bright.

Universities need bright students and bright students need top universities. And that is where the school(Ivies) counts and where effort and financial resources should go.


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## ThreeLittleBirds (May 26, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> Every school, in every district, in every neighborhood is different, so there is no one-size-fits-all answer to your question.  If you go online, you can probably find reviews for the schools in your neighborhood.
> 
> 
> -*When you only accept the cream of the crop, you are going to have outstanding results.  When you educate everyone, you will have a wide range of results.*



And I would caution that this happens within our US public schools. Particularly the high ranking ones. I have seen firsthand how middle achievers and special ed children are driven out of our states top ranking elementary school. Even though our son is eligible to go there, I would never send him there, and we thank our lucky stars (and commitment to previous parents) that he gets to go to a fabulous public focus school that has a C rating. There is zero focus on state tests at his school, but there is also an equal number of students that go on to ivy league educations when compared to the highest ranking school.

I personally hope he sticks with his current goal (he is 6) of being a marine biologist studying humpback whales and building outrigger canoes on the north shore of Kauai.


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## vacationhopeful (May 26, 2014)

In Maryland, the elementary schools are based in the local communities (town level). The Middle and High schools are based on the county level with a regional locale as to where they draw their students from.

My sister lives in one area of a county; her SIL lives in same county just 5-6 miles down the road -- different middle & high schools but both are far better than the other adjoining counties. My sister HATED the staff & administration at her middle school - throwing an adult party to celebrate her youngest graduating into 9th grade. But she really likes the HS - at least she did for the first 2 boys - her experience will be far different for her youngest, I am sure.

She did LOVE her local elementary school .... great staff, very caring, made many local friends among the parents, very good at involving parents with lots of kid centered functions. Even I went to many activities there.


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## Clemson Fan (May 28, 2014)

DeniseM said:


> Every school, in every district, in every neighborhood is different, so there is no one-size-fits-all answer to your question.  If you go online, you can probably find reviews for the schools in your neighborhood.
> 
> Here is the difference in the US and other countries:
> 
> ...



Both of my parents are retired public school teachers and my siblings and I are products of public schooling.  What you say is one of the main problems (out of many) with today's public school system.  Public schools are now forced to cater to the lowest common denominator which leaves the "cream of the crop" to fend for themselves in many instances.  In my parents later years of teaching one of their biggest complaints was the amount of their time and energy needed to be spent catering to the "problem" students.

I don't see anything wrong with separating out kids based on ability.  Expand public trade school offerings, etc. etc.

BTW, my kids go to private school with uniforms and a degree of formality.


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## siesta (May 28, 2014)

I grew up in, and still live on, the North Shore of Chicago. We have some excellent public school districts due to all the money here. Most of the kids at the top of the class in the public schools attended Top50 Universities.  Whereas most of the kids at the top of the class at my private prep school attended Ivy League or Top25 Universities.

I did very well in HS, attended an Ivy institution, and then went on to a Top5 law school. I didn't see those doors open up for most of the kids at the public schools, always exceptions of course.

"Today the North Shore remains one of the most affluent and highly educated areas in the United States. Seven of its communities are in the top quintile of U.S. household income, and five of those (Lake Forest, Glencoe, Kenilworth, Winnetka, Highland Park) are in the top 5 percent"


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## Clemson Fan (May 28, 2014)

e.bram said:


> Your kids are better off being at the top a lower ranked school, than being in the middle of a highly ranked school, to be admitted to a top university.
> 
> "Better to be first in a small town in the provinces than second in Rome!"(J. Caesar)



I actually believe in this at the High School level.  My nephew is about to graduate at what's widely considered the top private High School here in Hawaii.  He's graduating in the middle of the pack and he couldn't get into a upper tier college.  The college he's going to attend is very average IMO.  Anyway, I remember his parents were so excited when he got into that school.  It was like he got accepted to Stanford or Harvard.  In my mind I kept thinking it's only a High School.

His younger brother couldn't get into that High School and he goes to a smaller good, but not as "good", private school.  He's excelling and was just elected the king of the school for May Day (big festival here in Hawaii) by the faculty.  My bet is that he's going to get into a top tier college whereas if he went to the bigger more prestigious private High School of his older brother he may have gotten lost in the shuffle.


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## ScoopKona (May 28, 2014)

Clemson Fan said:


> The college he's going to attend is very average IMO.



The good thing about college is that it isn't where the student starts, it's where the student finishes. I cannot understand for the life of me why kids don't make use of communities colleges for their first two years. English 101 is English 101. Going to Harvard isn't going to make English 101 any different, just a lot more expensive. Get the introductory classes out of the way someplace inexpensive, and then transfer to a better school. It's like a half-off sale for higher education.


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## bogey21 (May 28, 2014)

Clemson Fan said:


> .....and he couldn't get into a upper tier college.  The college he's going to attend is very average IMO.



It is not always the college.  It is the professors.  I attended 9 or 10 (can't remember for sure) Universities before graduating (including North Carolina, Drexel, Univ of Houston, Washington U in St Louis, St Louis Univ, Temple, NYU, St Joseph's in Philadelphia, Southern Illinois, etc.)  I found great professors where you wouldn't expect them and lousy ones in some of the best schools.  In many cases the best were men who were currently in the business world, moonlighting to supplement their incomes.  Go figure.

George

PS Just remembered another - San Jose State Univ


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## ace2000 (May 28, 2014)

ScoopLV said:


> I cannot understand for the life of me why kids don't make use of communities colleges for their first two years. English 101 is English 101.



I believe it's mostly a status thing with their peers.  

May not make sense to us, but it makes a big difference to them.  Similar to choosing a school because they have a better football team, etc.


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## bogey21 (May 28, 2014)

ace2000 said:


> I believe it's mostly a status thing with their peers.
> 
> May not make sense to us, but it makes a big difference to them.  Similar to choosing a school because they have a better football team, etc.



Fine if they are paying their own way.  Not so fine if someone else is paying the freight.

George


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## Elan (May 28, 2014)

ace2000 said:


> I believe it's mostly a status thing with their peers.
> 
> May not make sense to us, but it makes a big difference to them.  Similar to choosing a school because they have a better football team, etc.



  Exactly.  Brand recognition is a huge marketing ploy, whether it's automobiles, consumer electronics or institutions of higher learning.  I work in cutting edge high tech and generally speaking, the engineers from "name" schools are no better than those from state schools even though they paid 2X to 4X more for their degree.


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## BocaBum99 (May 28, 2014)

I think it's a fact that the American education system has deteriorated over the last 30 years.   Relative to other countries, we have simply fallen behind.   This is a systemic problem.   There are many contributing factors to this degradation.  Some of it are the teachers Unions, some of it is economic, most of it is parental support and a culture for education (in my opinion).

Of course, I am looking broadly across the entire system.   At the top, our best students are competitive with the top students from anywhere in the world.  It's the average where we suffer the most.   The high number of single parent homes hurts tremendously, probably the most.

I am a product of public school education.  I went to a below average school.  I did well, but it was so easy that I was behind many of my peers going through college.  However, I caught up and ended up near the top of my college class.  I went to an Ivy for grad school and I was near the top of my class there as well. So, I don't think it really matters where you go or where you start.  Anyone can make it if they put in the effort to do it.   I used to think that talent and/or pure intellect is what mattered most.  However, I am now convinced that pure effort can overcome most talent or IQ deficiencies.

My view now is that Private schools have a structural advantage over public schools.   To the extent public schools perform better, I believe it's mostly because if you go to private school, you end up paying twice for it.  You pay the taxes to support the public schools and you pay tuition to the private institution.   I believe that there is a powerful set of aligned incentives for private schools.  The kids are there because they want to be.  Same with teachers and the parents.  My kids all go to private school.  I won't go back to public after experiencing what it is like when everyone wants to be somewhere.   It's materially different.

When you get to the real world, effort matters even more.   At least 50% of success is simply showing up.  It's amazing to me how few people even show up to play the game.


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## BocaBum99 (May 28, 2014)

ScoopLV said:


> The good thing about college is that it isn't where the student starts, it's where the student finishes. I cannot understand for the life of me why kids don't make use of communities colleges for their first two years. English 101 is English 101. Going to Harvard isn't going to make English 101 any different, just a lot more expensive. Get the introductory classes out of the way someplace inexpensive, and then transfer to a better school. It's like a half-off sale for higher education.



I can explain why community colleges aren't for me or my kids as their primary college educational experience.

First, to me a college education is more about the experience of being at a specific location for 4 or 5 years.   You get a depth of experience just from being there.   So, I don't like community colleges because you end up breaking up your experience into 2 different 2 year experiences.  Grad school was 2 years and I didn't get anywhere near the connection with my school as I did as an undergrad.

Second, I have attended several community colleges to take courses.  The caliber of student was far below that of the other Universities I attended.  As a result, the material had to be significantly dumbed down to the average capability of the students.  I found that unfortunate.


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## BocaBum99 (May 28, 2014)

e.bram said:


> Your kids are better off being at the top a lower ranked school, than being in the middle of a highly ranked school, to be admitted to a top university.
> 
> "Better to be first in a small town in the provinces than second in Rome!"(J. Caesar)



I don't think this is an apt comparison.  It is better to be a top student in a highly ranked school than it is to be the valedictorian of a lower ranked school.   If you have reasonable intellect and are totally committed to excel, you can make it in a top school.  Thinking that a person can't do well in a top school is putting in an artificial cap on someone's abilities.  That is a huge mistake.


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## BocaBum99 (May 28, 2014)

VegasBella said:


> I've done a lot of research and I've concluded that as long as I can afford it, my son will go to a high-achieving, non-religious private school.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I think you are making a mistake assuming that a religious private school is unacceptable.  My kids go to one and the religious aspects of the school are very low key.  If I had that as a screen, my kids would get a subpar education.


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## laurac260 (May 28, 2014)

BocaBum99 said:


> I think it's a fact that the American education system has deteriorated over the last 30 years.   Relative to other countries, we have simply fallen behind.   This is a systemic problem.   There are many contributing factors to this degradation.  Some of it are the teachers Unions, some of it is economic, most of it is parental support and a culture for education (in my opinion).
> 
> Of course, I am looking broadly across the entire system.   At the top, our best students are competitive with the top students from anywhere in the world.  It's the average where we suffer the most.   The high number of single parent homes hurts tremendously, probably the most.
> 
> ...



The kids are there because mommy and daddy want them to be there.  Sometimes mommy and daddy want them there because they don't want precious Billy or Betty to be "exposed" to those awful "public school" children.  My kids go to a very well respected public school.  I found it amusing when a "friend" said to me, while we were in the middle of unpacking in our new neighborhood, where we moved strictly BECAUSE of the schools "You ARE going to look at a private school option for them for high school, right?"  Um, no, I'm not.  Just because you send your little precious bundles to private (and where I live, private means catholic), does NOT mean they are going to automatically be BETTER humans than the public school folk.  No disrespect meant to catholics or catholic schools, a large portion of my family, including my mom and all her sibs were raised in catholic schools.  But I wanted to say to my friend, don't let your guard down because your daughter goes to Our Lady of the such and such.  The girl cusses like a sailor, and you might want to check her cell phone once in awhile, while you are at it..  :roll eyes:


Some of the biggest contributors to society were C students.  If everyone is in the top 1%, then no one is.


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## geekette (May 28, 2014)

BocaBum99 said:


> I think you are making a mistake assuming that a religious private school is unacceptable.  My kids go to one and the religious aspects of the school are very low key.  If I had that as a screen, my kids would get a subpar education.



yes, but, even low key is an issue if it isn't your religion!


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## geekette (May 28, 2014)

BocaBum99 said:


> When you get to the real world, effort matters even more.   At least 50% of success is simply showing up.  *It's amazing to me how few people even show up to play the game.*


Amazing and downright SAD!!!!


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## Luanne (May 28, 2014)

geekette said:


> yes, but, even low key is an issue if it isn't your religion!



Not necessarily.

One of my good friends is Jewish.  Both she, and her husband (also Jewish) attended Georgetown, which is a Catholic institution.  They were required, at least at the time, to take a class in religion.  I don't think either of them felt it was an issue. Of course by college it was their choice on which school they wanted to attend.


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## geekette (May 28, 2014)

ScoopLV said:


> The good thing about college is that it isn't where the student starts, it's where the student finishes. I cannot understand for the life of me why kids don't make use of communities colleges for their first two years. English 101 is English 101. Going to Harvard isn't going to make English 101 any different, just a lot more expensive. Get the introductory classes out of the way someplace inexpensive, and then transfer to a better school. It's like a half-off sale for higher education.



Maybe, but like Boca says , a lot of it is the experience.  If I stayed in the city where I grew up and started college, it would pretty much have been commuter high school.  same place, same people, no real personal growth.  Plus, I wanted to get the hell out of there!!!

I paid my own way so made my own decisions, and I wanted to start and finish same place.  Freshman classes on sale a mile or so from home is not necessarily a bargain to the kid that has never been on his own, done his own laundry, fixed his own food, found his own friends, etc.  Unfortunately, this could be the kid that shows up on campus as a junior and goes crazy on booze because he's never been out of mom's view/control.

each kid is different, especially as it comes to maturity and ability to accept responsibility (for laundry, dinner, rent, etc.)


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## geekette (May 28, 2014)

Luanne said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> One of my good friends is Jewish.  Both she, and her husband (also Jewish) attended Georgetown, which is a Catholic institution.  They were required, at least at the time, to take a class in religion.  I don't think either of them felt it was an issue. Of course by college it was their choice on which school they wanted to attend.



I went to public school and 'across the way' was a church, walking distance.  I had to take religious ed and it was not my ... brand.  as a grade schooler, I found it quite confusing.  

As an adult, I'm more of the opinion 'how dare they' because it was PUBLIC SCHOOL.  To me, that means "religious topics are left to the family to teach..."


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## vacationhopeful (May 28, 2014)

I have been watching some of the MeTV channel -- showing the reruns of the 50s & sixties. Love those old B&W shows - where NOT everyone had new clothes or drove fancy cars, but took the public bus & wore drab clothes multiple times in the TV series. Only Perry Mason had a convertible. Lassie's family drove an older station wagon.

What did the children of the 1980s watch - every peer was in fancy new clothes, with professionally done hair and eating out, snacking in fancy places & driving new cars. No one ever did a real job - even Lucy work on the candy conveyer belt and got fired. Ralph was a bus driver and never looked at the job as FUN. And one of my favorites, Laverne & Shirley -- Shotz Brewery - they were in the company's bowling team. I bowled in my 1st company's ladies bowling league (and drinking was NOT encouraged).

TV, starting in the late 1970s, made jobs to look like a punishment - why would YOU want to show up to play the game? And that is what the kids WATCHED after school and in Prime time.

And scenes involving school (like high school) were "who was cool or cute or hot" - again with clothing too sexy and way too expensive for their at home audience at home to own for everyday school wear. And the object of the girls was to get the CUTE boyfriend by looking sexy. And the boys just played sports.


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## geekette (May 28, 2014)

laurac260 said:


> Some of the biggest contributors to society were C students.  If everyone is in the top 1%, then no one is.


I like this.  Innovators have to expect/accept some failures in order to eventually find The Right Way or at least a path that works.  Progress requires deviation from The Known and one can't be afraid of failure.

Plenty of my job is try and fail.  If I couldn't handle a C, I couldn't hack it in my chosen profession (we all know people that had meltdowns if anything but As and I wonder how they do In Life?).  

Meanwhile, if it was nothing but A+ every day all day here, I would be terribly bored, having learned nothing, just doing same thing over and over...  blech.


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## bogey21 (May 28, 2014)

Luanne said:


> One of my good friends is Jewish.  Both she, and her husband (also Jewish) attended Georgetown, which is a Catholic institution.  They were required, at least at the time, to take a class in religion.



When I attended St Joseph"s Univ (PA), a Jesuit school they offered (I didn't ask) to let me (a non Catholic) substitute Philosophy courses for the Religion courses.  I had zero interest in Philosophy but ended up actually enjoying the classes.

George


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## bogey21 (May 28, 2014)

BocaBum99 said:


> First, to me a college education is more about *the experience of being at a specific location for 4 or 5 years*.   You get a depth of experience just from being there.



As I said before, I attended 10 Universities in the North, the South, the East and the West before graduating.  I'm sure I'm biased but I think I got more out of that kind of exposure than being in one location for 4 straight years.

George


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## BocaBum99 (May 28, 2014)

laurac260 said:


> The kids are there because mommy and daddy want them to be there.  Sometimes mommy and daddy want them there because they don't want precious Billy or Betty to be "exposed" to those awful "public school" children.  My kids go to a very well respected public school.  I found it amusing when a "friend" said to me, while we were in the middle of unpacking in our new neighborhood, where we moved strictly BECAUSE of the schools "You ARE going to look at a private school option for them for high school, right?"  Um, no, I'm not.  Just because you send your little precious bundles to private (and where I live, private means catholic), does NOT mean they are going to automatically be BETTER humans than the public school folk.  No disrespect meant to catholics or catholic schools, a large portion of my family, including my mom and all her sibs were raised in catholic schools.  But I wanted to say to my friend, don't let your guard down because your daughter goes to Our Lady of the such and such.  The girl cusses like a sailor, and you might want to check her cell phone once in awhile, while you are at it..  :roll eyes:
> 
> 
> Some of the biggest contributors to society were C students.  If everyone is in the top 1%, then no one is.



I don't know anyone who fits your negative stereotype of private school parents.  It's interesting that you describe them as being so shallow.  I wonder who really is the shallow one.    The parents themselves or the person who describes them in shallow terms.   Ironic.

The problem I have with C students is that anyone who puts in a reasonable effort can do better than a C average.   If you have a C average, you aren't even trying.  In this life, I value hard work, so I don't support anyone who settled for a C average unless there are extenuating circumstances for such as average like the kid has parents who beats him.


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## easyrider (May 28, 2014)

About 45 minutes ago I bumped into my jr high science teacher at Lowes. This person was the teacher who actually taught me how to think analytically. I have been lucky to have very good teachers, most of whom were underpaid because they taught at private schools.

In college my philosophy prof was a married with children liberal atheist who dated students. Ironically, my economics prof was a socialist teaching capitalism. My humanities prof had a problem with Japanese imperialism as he was Dutch and a product of WW2 Dutch Indies occupation. These profs are examples of public educators. 

Bill


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## e.bram (May 28, 2014)

Repeating my post #4:
"Schools are better now. 50 years ago top schools(Ivys, Stanford, MIT, Caltech) would admit 25 % of their applicants, now only about 5%."


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## VegasBella (May 29, 2014)

e.bram said:


> Schools and teachers will not make a bright person dull or a dull person bright.
> 
> Universities need bright students and bright students need top universities. And that is where the school(Ivies) counts and where effort and financial resources should go.




Actually, preschool is probably the best place to focus financial resources. Tons of research suggests preschool education strongly influences the rest of ones education and educational success.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## siesta (May 29, 2014)

VegasBella said:


> Actually, preschool is probably the best place to focus financial resources. Tons of research suggests preschool education strongly influences the rest of ones education and educational success.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree, the younger the better. I attended Montessori (too young to know if it helped, but I'd like to think so). But what I do remember was being 7ish and enrolled in Kumon math for a number of years.  I was literally the only white kid in the room, everyone else was Asian (mostly Korean). Not surprisingly, I always excelled in math, by far my strongest subject.


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## laurac260 (May 29, 2014)

BocaBum99 said:


> I don't know anyone who fits your negative stereotype of private school parents.  It's interesting that you describe them as being so shallow.  I wonder who really is the shallow one.    The parents themselves or the person who describes them in shallow terms.   Ironic.
> 
> The problem I have with C students is that anyone who puts in a reasonable effort can do better than a C average.   If you have a C average, you aren't even trying.  In this life, I value hard work, so I don't support anyone who settled for a C average unless there are extenuating circumstances for such as average like the kid has parents who beats him.


You "don't know anyone...?"

You need to get out more then.


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## lvhmbh (May 29, 2014)

I don't need to get out more - out too much as it is  but I don't know any of those parents either.  Our 17 year old chose to go to private school starting in 9th grade.  He was going to public school which he found very easy.  Unfortunately, they didn't teach him how to study as he got A's with no studying so I guess the teachers didn't think it was an issue.  When he went into private school he struggled a bit and definitely HAS to study to get good grades.  BocaBum - do you realize that Boca High here in Florida is 29th in the nation for public high schools?  That was where he would have been going.  I asked him the other day if he regretted his choice and he told me they were preparing him for college - not just to graduate.


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## laurac260 (May 29, 2014)

lvhmbh said:


> I don't need to get out more - out too much as it is  but I don't know any of those parents either.  Our 17 year old chose to go to private school starting in 9th grade.  He was going to public school which he found very easy.  Unfortunately, they didn't teach him how to study as he got A's with no studying so I guess the teachers didn't think it was an issue.  When he went into private school he struggled a bit and definitely HAS to study to get good grades.  BocaBum - do you realize that Boca High here in Florida is 29th in the nation for public high schools?  That was where he would have been going.  I asked him the other day if he regretted his choice and he told me they were preparing him for college - not just to graduate.



There are 110 parochial schools in the major city next door to where I live, not including the suburbs.  I certainly didn't say all parents are that way, but I've met more than my share, not just as an adult, some of the families on the street where I grew up went to parochial school, and their parents did not like their kids socializing with the neighbor kids.  It is what it is, but yes the parents exist, more than you'd like to admit.  

Our local high school is 17th in the nation for public schools.  We moved here BECAUSE of the schools, teachers and community .  The parochial schools here offer a great education too.  If folks want to send their kids to private schools , by all means do.  But I do get frustrated at the parents who assume their kids are somehow "better" because they aren't at "gasp" public schools. I'm not referring to anyone on here... So no need to take it personally.

We tried private schools.  The politics and the "whomever donates the most money makes the rules " at the two we went to, just wasn't for us.


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## laurac260 (May 29, 2014)

Cincinnati is a funny place.  You can graduate from school here, leave and go off to any number of universities, but if you move back the first question everyone has to is are you from here?  If The answer is yes the second question is always what high school did you go to?  This is way more important from a social aspect than any university you might've gotten into.  

If you aren't from here, like me no biggie.  Procter and Gamble and GE provide an ample amount of transients.  If you are from here what high school you went to is very significant.  I can't say I've ever seen anything like it in all the cities I have lived in throughout the years


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## vacationhopeful (May 29, 2014)

laurac260 said:


> ...If you are from here what high school you went to is very significant.  I can't say I've ever seen anything like it in all the cities I have lived in throughout the years



Philadelphia is like that. A city of neighborhoods. "THE Northeast", South Philly, West Philly, Old City, University City, Roxbrough, Mannayuk, Center City, etc. 

Even New York City people will ask "which borough?" - and the 5 boroughs have their own courts & city councils.

How many big cities have YOU lived in where you found that NOT to be true?


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## bogey21 (May 29, 2014)

VegasBella said:


> Actually, preschool is probably the best place to focus financial resources. Tons of research suggests preschool education strongly influences the rest of ones education and educational success.



If true, why have pre-school?  Why not just add another year for all kids?

George


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## vacationhopeful (May 29, 2014)

bogey21 said:


> If true, why have pre-school?  Why not just add another year for all kids?
> 
> George



Called Headstart in my part of the country.

And NJ does has a FREE pre-kindergarten school for 4 yo (voluntary).


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## lvhmbh (May 29, 2014)

Wow that's great about the pre-kindergarten!  I went to kindergarten when I was 4.  My Mother was a teacher in the school system and they needed her to teach in a one room schoolhouse (last one around).  She told them she would if they'd let me go to kindergarten (not in her school - she was always in another town).  I could already read - not because I was brilliant but I think it was a way to keep me busy.  She read to me but with me helping her hold the book (Charlotte's Web) and pointing out the word so I would learn.


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## laurac260 (May 29, 2014)

vacationhopeful said:


> Philadelphia is like that. A city of neighborhoods. "THE Northeast", South Philly, West Philly, Old City, University City, Roxbrough, Mannayuk, Center City, etc.
> 
> Even New York City people will ask "which borough?" - and the 5 boroughs have their own courts & city councils.
> 
> How many big cities have YOU lived in where you found that NOT to be true?



This isn't "neighborhoods" and neighborhood schools, though.  These are private schools.  Folks will drive from four corners of Greater Cincinnati (which also encompasses Northern Kentucky and Indiana as well), to take their kids to Moeller, or St Xavier, or St Ursula, or St Ursuline, it's a big list.   If you have boys and girls then you have to drive Susie to the girl school, then Billy to the boys school across town.


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## Tia (May 29, 2014)

WOW same thing goes on where I've been living the last 32 yrs. Was asked within the last year what HS we graduated from here ( obviously a few years ago) ....... and the answer was one from Minn and other Iowa... Guess they want to know who we might know but not sure. It's been  going on for years. Always thought it was _odd._...



laurac260 said:


> Cincinnati is a funny place.  You can graduate from school here, leave and go off to any number of universities, but if you move back the first question everyone has to is are you from here?  If The answer is yes the second question is always what high school did you go to?  This is way more important from a social aspect than any university you might've gotten into.
> 
> If you aren't from here, like me no biggie.  Procter and Gamble and GE provide an ample amount of transients.  If you are from here what high school you went to is very significant.  I can't say I've ever seen anything like it in all the cities I have lived in throughout the years


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## vacationhopeful (May 29, 2014)

laurac260 said:


> This isn't "neighborhoods" and neighborhood schools, though.  These are private schools.  Folks will drive from four corners of Greater Cincinnati (which also encompasses Northern Kentucky and Indiana as well), to take their kids to Moeller, or St Xavier, or St Ursula, or St Ursuline, it's a big list.   If you have boys and girls then you have to drive Susie to the girl school, then Billy to the boys school across town.



And yes, these are the schools (both private and public) which serve the various interests and religions. Central was original all boys and city wide public HONORs; Little Flower was the girls' Catholic smarties; Bishop Ryan (I thing) was the all boys' Little Flower equal .... as I did not live there, I don't know all the ins and outs of the special or regional demands (niches markets).

And YES, if said you grew up in Philly, the HS years later DID matter!


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## VegasBella (May 29, 2014)

bogey21 said:


> If true, why have pre-school?  Why not just add another year for all kids?
> 
> 
> 
> George




Ask early childhood development experts. There's tons of research on it - not hard to find with a good web search engine. 

Pretty sure it has to do with positive early experiences during formative time, not just sheer quantity of educational years. Much like how breastmilk is an excellent food for babies but isn't as nutritionally great for teenagers.

Google something called the 30 million word gap.

Also, FYI preschool is 1-2 years, depending in the age the child starts (age 3 or 4). Usually they start real preschool when they're potty-trained.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## laurac260 (May 29, 2014)

VegasBella said:


> Ask early childhood development experts. There's tons of research on it - not hard to find with a good web search engine.
> 
> Pretty sure it has to do with positive early experiences during formative time, not just sheer quantity of educational years. Much like how breastmilk is an excellent food for babies but isn't as nutritionally great for teenagers.
> 
> ...



There's debate on this topic too.   Some swear by early ed, others swear by "unschooling" at young ages.  We did early ed with our oldest, and unschooling with our youngest.    I can't say enough about unschooling.  Wish I had known about it with number one.   Those few years (and they go by WAY too fast) were amazing for us.


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## Clemson Fan (May 29, 2014)

e.bram said:


> Repeating my post #4:
> "Schools are better now. 50 years ago top schools(Ivys, Stanford, MIT, Caltech) would admit 25 % of their applicants, now only about 5%."



This stat is faulty because the denominator (# of kids applying for college) has gotten exponentially larger in the last 20-30 years or so.

Going to college has almost turned into a "right" in this country.  A college degree is almost becoming analogous to what a high school degree was 30-40 years ago.

Actually the stat is not faulty, it is what it is.  The deduction that schools are better now based on this stat is faulty.


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## laurac260 (May 29, 2014)

Clemson Fan said:


> This stat is faulty because the denominator (# of kids applying for college) has gotten exponentially larger in the last 20-30 years or so.
> 
> Going to college has almost turned into a "right" in this country.  A college degree is almost becoming analogous to what a high school degree was 30-40 years ago.
> 
> Actually the stat is not faulty, it is what it is.  The deduction that schools are better now based on this stat is faulty.



Agreed.  My dad and all his siblings (born between 1920-1938) all quit high school to get a job, to support the family.  My dad made it to (or thru?) 9th grade, but I doubt he had an education beyond 6th.  He didn't read well at all.  That was ok though at the time (1950's-70's)  He managed to support his family.  We had just enough, but we managed.  I graduated first generation from college 10 years after I graduated from HS, no funding from the folks, it wasn't expected.  

At the time, maybe half of my peers went to college (it was a working class town that I grew up in).    Once you graduate from college and start working, your "peers" change (they become your colleagues), and pretty much 98+% of my peers had gone to a 4 year college.  That put me as "average".  The above average folks had advanced degrees.  Now, I know so many folks with advanced degrees that I often feel like I am back to being "just a high school graduate" in some circles.   I have to remind myself that I did the best I could with what I had, a father with barely an education (I tutored HIM thru math, me in 9th grade him a 43 year old man working on his GED).  In my family I am considered the "overachiever".  Elsewhere, notsomuch.  When everyone is "higher edumacated", it means no one is.


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## Tia (Jun 3, 2014)

*college costs*

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/college-costs-unaffordable-for-students-174357548.html

"...The cost of tuition and fees have soared by more than 1,120% since the government began keeping track in 1978. That’s twice as fast as healthcare and six times the rate of food costs. Meanwhile, the average American family’s wages barely budged over the same period. ..."


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## Janette (Jun 4, 2014)

I taught in public schools and had friends who sent their kids to private schools so they would not be around the "bad" kids. Guess where the "bad" kids went if they were expelled from public schools. Money talked! There are excellent schools in both categories and there are parents who do a great job with home schooling. It is a personal preference and as long as parents care and are involved in their child's life it is not the business of outsiders.


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## Big Matt (Jun 5, 2014)

Maybe tuition should be free at public universities.  We're going to have a student loan crisis (or maybe we're already having it).  College is now the standard, but being burdened with big $ isn't the way to go.  

Fifty years from now you will see a movement to virtual classrooms, on line learning, and many fewer colleges.  Think about a model where you have the best professors teaching lectures on line from their office.  You could literally have millions of students attending the lecture.  No more dorms, no more meal plans, etc.  It wouldn't work for some things that are hands on like labs, etc.

I guess that model would make fraternity parties difficult.....



Tia said:


> http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/college-costs-unaffordable-for-students-174357548.html
> 
> "...The cost of tuition and fees have soared by more than 1,120% since the government began keeping track in 1978. That’s twice as fast as healthcare and six times the rate of food costs. Meanwhile, the average American family’s wages barely budged over the same period. ..."


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## Tia (Jun 5, 2014)

I heard out of state college enrollment in Colorado is up since it passed the marijuana law. It no doubt attracts non college persons too......


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## laurac260 (Jun 5, 2014)

Janette said:


> I taught in public schools and had friends who sent their kids to private schools so they would not be around the "bad" kids. Guess where the "bad" kids went if they were expelled from public schools. Money talked! There are excellent schools in both categories and there are parents who do a great job with home schooling. It is a personal preference and as long as parents care and are involved in their child's life it is not the business of outsiders.



My point exactly.  We tried private (agree with your assessment above), and we tried homeschool.  I loved many things about homeschool.  We did a couple different co-ops as well.  I think it was a good all around experience, as my daughter was exposed to a lot of different things and different people that she did not necessarily get in public school.  HOWEVER, so many of the kids that she was with had been pulled out of public school for a variety of different reasons.  We left for academics (our school system was unraveling), so many others left for behavioral issues, social issues, mental health issues.... Nothing wrong with learning how to function amongst kids like that, but at the end of the day also need to be able to function amongst the masses as well.   

I'm not sure how else to explain without sounding un-PC... After 2 1/2 years we moved to a better district and reentered public school.   It's a small place with amazing offerings, and not a lot of layers of bureaucratic BS either, which I like.


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## bogey21 (Jun 5, 2014)

laurac260 said:


> My point exactly.  We tried private (agree with your assessment above), and we tried homeschool.  I loved many things about homeschool.  We did a couple different co-ops as well.  I think it was a good all around experience, as my daughter was *exposed to a lot of different things and different people* that she did not necessarily get in public school. my   HOWEVER, so many of the kids that she was with had been pulled out of public school for a variety of different reasons.  We left for academics (our school system was unraveling), so many others left for behavioral issues, social issues, mental health issues.... Nothing wrong with learning how to function amongst kids like that, but at the end of the day also need to be able to function amongst the masses as well.



Well said.  *Exposure is the key*.  My Son and Daughter (who were one year apart) attended a Christian School starting in 5th grade.  Great environment but one thing was lacking, black students.  We handled this by encouraging my Son to play basketball in a predominantly black neighborhood.  He was one of only two white boys on his team which often traveled out of town for tournaments.  My Wife, Daughter and I were clearly the minorities at the games.  No question that this exposure more than compensated for what was lacking at school.  

George


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## pjrose (Jun 6, 2014)

Rose Pink said:


> It's been awhile since my children were in K-12.  What I learned back then is that test results for public schools follow socio-economic areas.  IOW, the wealthier areas will have the schools with the higher test scores.  I briefly worked as a substitute teacher.  I found that the children in the higher ranked schools were (generally) better behaved.  Where the parents had higher expectations, the schools followed.  *If parents do not value education, their children aren't likely to, either.  Bottom line, get involved in your child's school.  Join the PTA.  Serve on the committees.  Attend school events.  Be sure the administration and the staff know who you are.  Donate time and resouces to the classroom.  Be the chaperone on field trips.  Be a room/class parent that helps with the parties, etc.  Know what your child's homework assignments are.  Make certain your child knows you value education.  *
> 
> School is not daycare.  You, your child, and the teacher are a team.  It is as much your parental responsiblity to be informed as it is the school's job to inform.  Be proactive.  Ask, don't wait to be told.
> 
> Like others have mentioned, the better schools may be out of your area.  I am one of those moms who insisted on moving the family so my children would have a better school.  Not everyone can do that, however.  I was chided for not staying put and making the local school better but I decided that was more than I could handle, so we moved.  If a family cannot afford to relocate or bus or carpool then do whatever you can do to be involved in your child's school community.  It will make a difference.  Some very good people came from humble circumstances.



Yes, Yes, and Yes!


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## SnowDogDad (Jun 8, 2014)

I do not have children (well, except the furry kind) and I am not involved in early (K-12) education in anyway.  I'm an old fuddy-duddy now and look back at how much better things were in the "old days."  

So, all I have to share are observations.  I have 3 elementary school age nieces and a nephew.  My mother was a 1rs grade teacher in a poorer Tennessee county for many years.  I have several friends that currently teach school and I hear about their challenges and triumphs. 

Being a kid today is tough.  IMHO, far tougher than it was when I was a kid.  I was very hyperactive and hard to control...  Squirrel!!!!!!   Wait, where were we?

There are far more distractions.  Being popular and with the in-crowd is even more important now than it was 20, 30, or 40 years ago.  Devices and technology distract and, IMHO, encourage lower-level thinking.  I have several 20-something friends that are GREAT at multi-tasking... 140 characters at a time.  But, don't ask them to carry on a conversation and don't ask them to do any sort of abstract thinking. 

Again, my opinion, education begins *at* home.  The teacher/school is the delivery mechanism.  But, if the child is not ready to learn, does not value what they are learning, or the adult is not supportive of education, then it is going to be wasted.  

If I had kids, I'd instill in them from the earliest age possible the never-ending worlds of reading, the beauty of science, the logic of math, and the value of art, history and sociology.  Most everything you learn, even Shakespeare or the Pythagorean theorem, is going to make them a better, more rounded, and more successful adult.  

I'd worry less about whether my child might be exposed to the Bible, a moment of silence, a liberal, a conservative, sex education, or, Heaven help us all, a logical argument or opinion contrary to my own.  I'd worry more about installing strong values in my own child.  If my children are strong and prepared when they go in to school, they will realize the best benefits. 

Again, easy for me to say because I don't have a toddler approaching school age.  Those who can, do.  Those who can't dispense advice.   

Good luck.  The fact that you are thinking about these things and asking these questions means that more than likely you are already on top of it.


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## Rose Pink (Jun 8, 2014)

SnowDogDad said:


> ....  Those who can, do.  Those who can't dispense advice.



And good advice it was, too.


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## rapmarks (Jun 8, 2014)

I am curious about ranking the schools across the nation, as in ours is no. 10 and ours is no. 17.   What do the rank them on?   I have been retired a few years, but I never knew about this ranking system.  surely it can't be the number going on to college,  as schools need to serve more than that population.


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## pjrose (Jun 8, 2014)

SnowDogDad said:


> . . . .
> 
> *Again, my opinion, education begins *at* home.  The teacher/school is the delivery mechanism.  But, if the child is not ready to learn, does not value what they are learning, or the adult is not supportive of education, then it is going to be wasted.
> *
> ...



Absolutely, many thumbs up.

It HAS TO BEGIN AND BE REINFORCED AT HOME.  If the parents aren't reading, themselves and to the kids, why should the kids do it?  If the parents aren't using decent grammar, why should the kids?  The kids should know their colors, numbers, and letters before they hit kindergarten.  They should value education. The home environment is critical.  

We did not park our kids in front of the TV (my son didn't discover it till age 2 1/2) and we never had video games.  We did read to them all the time, and they were both early readers.

And values - yes, definitely.  helping.  volunteering, please and thank you and you're welcome.  All are critical. 

When my son started first grade the teacher had them all make cutouts and she labeled them with Hi, my name is ...., and i like to .....  Most were sports or games - I like to play soccer, I like to watch TV I like to race, I like football, I like toys, etc.  

My son's said "I like to learn".  Wow. Having two college prof parents who were always reading, talking about teaching, teaching him, etc surely helped with that.  We did NOT push for straight As or perfection, no way.  In fact when he was getting stressed out if he didn't get 100% we told him to back off, that he didn't  need to.  

And don't just stress memorization.  That, unfortunately, is what much of our education system tests.  But you can encourage the child to think and come up with ideas.  Ask Why and How all the time.  When I was trying to get rid of some ice in the driveway by banging it with a shovel, my preschool helper said "Hey mom, I think the ice is melting because when you hit it and make cracks the water from the top is warmer and gets underneath and then it doesn't stick to the driveway anymore".  And Mr. Tecchie-loved-wires-speakers-phones-etc at probably age 6 or so wired a bunch of speakers, mikes, etc together, and I made the mistake - big mistake - of saying "it won't work".  Of course it did, and I never said that again.  He's figured out a lot of "it won't work" things.  He's now a stage manager and lighting designer.

The key was for the interest in learning, in reading, in thinking, and values to start at home.


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## bogey21 (Jun 8, 2014)

SnowDogDad said:


> Being a kid today is tough.  IMHO, far tougher than it was when I was a kid.



So true.  I grew up in a suburb of Philadelphia.  In the Summer most days I would leave the house (on my own) at about 9 am on my bike with a small amount of money for lunch and hit the playgrounds in the area for basketball, baseball, ping pong, tennis, or whatever.  I would arrive back home in time for dinner.  My parents never had to worry where I was or what I was doing.  Today kids have to be shuttled to "activities" by their parents and have to amuse themselves around the house.

When school was in session I would walk (unescorted) to school with my friends.  After school it was sports practice then walk home.  I would arrive home in time for dinner.   Again, my parents didn't have to worry where I was or what I was doing.

George


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## MuranoJo (Jun 8, 2014)

SnowDogDad said:


> There are far more distractions...  Devices and technology distract and, IMHO, encourage lower-level thinking.  I have several 20-something friends that are GREAT at multi-tasking... 140 characters at a time.  But, don't ask them to carry on a conversation and don't ask them to do any sort of abstract thinking.



So true, IMO.  I have nearby nieces and nephews who are whizzes on the computer and @ games, but conversation in a social setting is awkward.  We try to draw them out, but simple, short answers are all we get (and often those are mumbled instead of clearly spoken).  It amazes me they can even pass a job interview.


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## pjrose (Jun 9, 2014)

muranojo said:


> So true, IMO.  I have nearby nieces and nephews who are whizzes on the computer and @ games, but conversation in a social setting is awkward.  We try to draw them out, but simple, short answers are all we get (and often those are mumbled instead of clearly spoken).  It amazes me they can even pass a job interview.



Conversation, another thing to learn at home.  Dinner table conversation has gone the way of dinner at the table.  Ban TV and cell phones etc from the table, eat at it, and make conversation.  Include kids in adult conversation.  Don't ask questions that can be answered by one word (did you have a good day? what was your favorite class?) but ask why and how and what did you think about.  

Even with babies, it's easier to give a bottle than to sit down opposite the high chair and talk about the baby food, its colors, flavors, count the bites, etc, but guess which babies are going to develop a better vocabulary and better conversational ability.


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## Beaglemom3 (Jun 11, 2014)

pjrose said:


> Conversation, another thing to learn at home.  Dinner table conversation has gone the way of dinner at the table.  Ban TV and cell phones etc from the table, eat at it, and make conversation.  Include kids in adult conversation.  Don't ask questions that can be answered by one word (did you have a good day? what was your favorite class?) but ask why and how and what did you think about.
> 
> Even with babies, it's easier to give a bottle than to sit down opposite the high chair and talk about the baby food, its colors, flavors, count the bites, etc, but guess which babies are going to develop a better vocabulary and better conversational ability.


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## FLDVCFamily (Jun 11, 2014)

We live in FL and our kids go to an awesome public school. That is why we live where we live. The best thing about FL is the class size mandates. We live in a county that follows them, so we have no more than 18 kids in a classroom. Our teachers are awesome. I can only compare their experience to my own. I went to a private school that was not great. I think that what my kids get from their public school is leaps and bounds over what I got from my private school.


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## persia (Jun 12, 2014)

I have never seen the dramatic differences in school districts as I have in Boston area.  We've lived in Jamaica Plain (which is part of the City of Boston) and Newton.

In Boston the furniture doesn't match, offices are chaotic collections of reused furniture that looks like it came from the Salvation Army.  Even registering for school is a daunting task, the people are rude and the computer system archaic.  If they *think* you are missing anything they are more than happy to tell you to come back later.  The building is bare of decoration.  Someone posted a message on some forum somewhere that best describes it.  They said it's like India, after the departure of the British, old colonial buildings repurposed as best they can.  Many of the teachers are good but they are dealing with over crowded classroom, students who don't speak English and underprivileged families.  They do the best they can with all the challenges.

In Newton, which by the way has a border with Boston, the High School is a 200 million dollar palace, with state of the art everything.  When you register you meet the teachers and staff, they make it easy and friendly.  Missing paperwork?  Send it in later.  The teachers are quite good, the hiring process is selective.  The offices glisten with matched furniture.  Hallways are bright and decorated.  Teachers come to meetings with modern laptops and everything has an air of professionalism.  I'd be hard pressed to find a school in Sydney that is better.

Nothing has prepared me for this shocking haves versus have nots dichotomy.


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## rapmarks (Jun 12, 2014)

my son and daughter in law teach in Newton


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## Tia (Jun 13, 2014)

persia said:


> Nothing has prepared me for this shocking haves versus have nots dichotomy.



Similar exists in Colorado and probably everywhere, more $ better schools....


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## Icc5 (Jun 13, 2014)

*Then and Now*

When I started school about 58 years ago I think most schools were pretty even and pretty good.  My hardest and best education I feel was public high school followed by the local junior college.  I graduated from a four year college with two degrees but can't say I had very high regards for it.
Forty years later my children were in public school in the Cupertino School District and then in The Fremont School District and received a very good education as these school districts are considered very good.  
We didn't send our kids to private schools but we paid a huge amount for our house because of where it is and because the schools are rated so high.  High taxes also come with the house.  In a way I feel they had a private school education which luckily our area has great schools in both public and private.
Bart


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## KauaiMark (Jun 13, 2014)

*A Rose is a Rose..*



			
				Rose Pink: ...  I briefly worked as a substitute teacher.  I found that the children in the higher ranked schools were (generally) better behaved.  Where the parents had higher expectations said:
			
		

> After 30yrs as a software engineer in Silicone Valley, I've been substitute teaching the last 10. I've pretty much observed the same school environments as Rose. When parents are not involved in the progress of their child's learning, the kids fall behind.
> 
> As for the future of US education, NCLB (No Child Left Behind) turned into "No child gets ahead". The next experimental  wreak is coming down the tracks and it's name is "Common Core" and it looks even worse.
> 
> ...


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## MuranoJo (Jun 14, 2014)

Rose and Mark, my DH would surely agree with both of you, after having taught for almost 30 years.  He was saying many of the same things years ago, as were many of his fellow teachers.  Yet nothing changes.


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## Nolathyme (Jul 22, 2014)

I recently met a parent at a play date for the incoming kindergarten class. She has one 5 year old that will be starting kindergarten and two older kids. She is putting the older kids (4th grade and 6th grade) into private school for some of the reasons mentioned in the above posts.

She mentioned the new way of teaching (I think she called it education 2.0) and as Mark mentioned in post #85 - every subject at every grade level is taught at exactly the same way and at the same rate. 

Here are some of the important points I pulled from previous posts:

1)Teachers only teach the test
2)  Forced to cater to the lowest common denominator – material dumbed down
3)  Not separating kids based on ability


One positive she mentioned – the school is looking to tweak the new education process.

Do private schools have the same testing requirements as public schools?


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## bogey21 (Jul 22, 2014)

swj said:


> She is putting the older kids (4th grade and 6th grade) into private school for some of the reasons mentioned in the above posts.
> 
> Do private schools have the same testing requirements as public schools?



We did the same thing.  Public school through 5th grade then transferred into one of the local Christian Schools.  I consider it a great decision.  It worked out extremely well.   I think the main advantage their school had was the ability to select their students.  All students had to reapply every year.

Mine graduated about 10 years ago but my recollection is that they were not subject to any Federal or State testing requirements.

George


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## letsgosteelers (Jul 22, 2014)

*Join Glenn in Movie Theaters TONIGHT - Common Core*

Deleted:  POSTING RULES-





> Avoid posting about politics, *religion, or contentious social issues*
> Unless directly related to timesharing, such discussions are prohibited in these forums, including TUG Lounge. We've been down that road before, it was ugly, and we are not going there again.


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## Patri (Jul 22, 2014)

Private schools do not have the same testing standards, and many in our area have an abysmal college rate. They are starting to adapt their curriculum to that used by the good public schools.


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## Brett (Jul 22, 2014)

Deleted:  POSTING RULES-





> Avoid posting about politics, *religion, or contentious social issues*
> Unless directly related to timesharing, such discussions are prohibited in these forums, including TUG Lounge. We've been down that road before, it was ugly, and we are not going there again.


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## letsgosteelers (Jul 23, 2014)

letsgosteelers said:


> Deleted:  POSTING RULES-



Sorry, I saw there were some posts about common core earlier on and saw this event so thought I would mention it.  My bad.

Thought the Lounge was off-topic, didn't know this wasnt allowed.


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## laurac260 (Jul 23, 2014)

letsgosteelers said:


> Sorry, I saw there were some posts about common core earlier on and saw this event so thought I would mention it.  My bad.
> 
> Thought the Lounge was off-topic, didn't know this wasnt allowed.



You can mention common core .  You can cite CNN, huffpost, I've even seen mother jones articles cited here.  You just can't mention anyone with the initials GB.


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## letsgosteelers (Jul 23, 2014)

laurac260 said:


> You can mention common core .  You can cite CNN, huffpost, I've even seen mother jones articles cited here.  You just can't mention anyone with the initials GB.



Not sure I understand why?  

His news firm is just as good/legitimate as any other.  Mother Jones...seriously?


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## SMHarman (Jul 23, 2014)

Patri said:


> Private schools do not have the same testing standards, and many in our area have an abysmal college rate. They are starting to adapt their curriculum to that used by the good public schools.


The students still need an SAT score?

I was talking to my Swiss colleagues about this. In Switzerland you get a private education because you are too dumb for the public one.


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