# Platinum Manor Club sells for really low price



## Steve (Apr 23, 2011)

An eBay auction of a platinum Manor Club week just ended with a winning bid of only $1025.  

The auction number is:  110673798821

I know Williamsburg is seriously overbuilt with several new resorts in active sales, but that is a really low price for such a gorgeous resort.  In addition, I have noticed mulitple "For Rent" ads where people are asking less than the maintenance fees for summer weeks.  As Manor Club has a long off season, rents must be even lower for the many non-summer weeks.

These are not good signs.

Steve


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## dioxide45 (Apr 23, 2011)

Steve said:


> An eBay auction of a platinum Manor Club week just ended with a winning bid of only $1025.
> 
> The auction number is:  110673798821
> 
> ...



I would expect many off season rental prices for Williamsburg and even Orlando to be almost unrentable. People simply don't want to have to rent for half the MFs, so they don't even bother to list them. If they do list them to recoup the MF, they likely won't even rent. The fact is you can easily get similar accommodations for cheap in the off season through other sources.


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## dwmantz (Apr 23, 2011)

Personally, I own at several "2nd tier" resorts and find that MFs for a 2BR Marriott in Wburg equal that for a 4BR in these other resorts (Greensprings for the sake of argument).  Loving Greensprings, even Powhatan, Governors Green, Kings Creek, etc, and being able to bring friends along to share a 4BR, I can't bring myself to even consider taking a Marriott week for free!


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## pwrshift (Apr 24, 2011)

This is a real shock...for me as an owner there but for Marriott owners at all resorts as it could start a run of people who just want to get out at any price.  This, I feel, is the end of the end as there's not much further down to go to zero.  I don't think we can blame the economy on this situation now...it's a complete lack of confidence in Marriott.  eBay buyers are too savvy now to pay much more for anything.


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## MOXJO7282 (Apr 24, 2011)

pwrshift said:


> This is a real shock...for me as an owner there but for Marriott owners at all resorts as it could start a run of people who just want to get out at any price.  This, I feel, is the end of the end as there's not much further down to go to zero.  I don't think we can blame the economy on this situation now...it's a complete lack of confidence in Marriott.  eBay buyers are too savvy now to pay much more for anything.


MMC falls into the category very nice resort in a very nice location but in a very overbuilt area without the super high demand of a beachfront location.

From my on-going research any beachfront plat Marriott is going up in resale price, including places like BeachPlace, Ocean Pointe.

However places like Branson and MMC are heading to zero. That is why as much as we loved MMC and were tempted to add a MMC to our rental/use portfolio I just never saw the rental demand even for July 4th weeks, so I stayed away.


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## ronparise (Apr 24, 2011)

Your post begs the question(s)...How much is any timeshare worth? and How do you figure it?

Real Estate is typically valued by one of three methods 
1) market value, ie supply and demand; the price a willing buyer and willing seller agree on  
2) income value ie present value of a future income stream; How much can I rent this thing for?
3) replacement cost. ie what would it cost to duplicate it. 

Depending on a buyers anticipated use of the property , one might give greater weight to one or another of these approaches

Applied to timeshares 

1) ebay is a large transparent market place, bringing lots of willing buyers and sellers together. In my opinion market value is what you see on ebay
2) If you intend to rent the property for income, what is the difference between annual expenses including amortization of my initial investment, and anticipated rental income. A small number means a small valuation. 
3) Regarding  replacement cost:   What would it cost to buy the land and build the condos? divide that number by the number of condos and then by 52 to get the value of a timeshare week, for example a  $150000 condo would equate to a week being worth under $3000

With timeshares and from a buyers perspective I have a 4th  consideration. I want to know what my alternatives are, ie what would it cost to rent a similar place for my vacation, or are there any other options. In Ft Myers for example, I know  that I can rent a very nice vacation condo in the high season for about $3000 a month. A timeshare week with $1000 annual maintenance ($4000 a month) is not too attractive to me, but maybe I only want a week a year...then it doesn't look too bad. 

A typical valuation will take into consideration all the above paying particular consideration to the end users anticipated use. But the fact is; market value trumps all, and I go to ebay for that

I know Marriott is, if not the nicest, certainly one of the nicest timeshare systems going, but it seems to me values have been held up by the perception of value (prestige) and not by anything you can measure. Pull back the curtain and you will see that there isnt anything there. I hope for the sake of all the owners out there that I am wrong, but I  expect Marriott resales to go the way of Wyndham, ie down to a dollar or less


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## timeos2 (Apr 24, 2011)

ronparise said:


> I know Marriott is, if not the nicest, certainly one of the nicest timeshare systems going, but it seems to me values have been held up by the perception of value (prestige) and not by anything you can measure. Pull back the curtain and you will see that there isnt anything there. I hope for the sake of all the owners out there that I am wrong, but I  expect Marriott resales to go the way of Wyndham, ie down to a dollar or less



No matter how nice or what brand the reality is that there are too many timeshares for sale - too many options - for ANY week/resort to hold out any significant value over and above all others.  They may be $2k vs $1 but they aren't going to be $5K or more except in an extremely limited number of cases - and the vast majority don't fit that exception. 

Those that think a brand or location has automatic higher value are kidding themselves as they probably paid way too much a few years ago and want to feel good about it.  When they actually go to sell the truth will hit them hard. High fees, bad/controlling developer management often offset location or brand name so the overall value isn't there. Virtually no exceptions.


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## pwrshift (May 28, 2011)

*Manor Club sells for less than maintenance!*

Another shocker...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...=&sspagename=ADME:B:WNA:US:1123#ht_4064wt_689


Item number:	360367275992


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## Big Matt (May 28, 2011)

This isn't new.  Manor Club weeks have been selling in this range for a while.  Same for Grande Vista, Cypress Harbour, the non-beach Hilton Head, etc.  

With the economy people can't even justify paying the maintenance fees.

I get a local Williamsburg paper mailed to me and there were hundreds if not over a thousand foreclosures for all the timeshares.  

I still love my Manor Club.  It trades like a champ in II.  I'm heading to Hawaii in a couple of months via my 1BR side.


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## timeos2 (May 28, 2011)

Big Matt said:


> This isn't new.  Manor Club weeks have been selling in this range for a while.  Same for Grande Vista, Cypress Harbour, the non-beach Hilton Head, etc.
> 
> With the economy people can't even justify paying the maintenance fees.
> 
> ...



More and more even the very best of the best timeshares are becoming far less valuable as far as market/resale price goes.  It doesn't mean the resort isn't still great or a wonderful place to visit it simply means the ongoing obligations for ever increasing fees may exceed the value in many buyers view.  They may be willing to take on the fees for the value of the use/trade time but are unwilling to pay much in up front fees simply to take on that obligation and the knowledge that resale down the road will be even harder to achieve that it is today.  

It just makes sense to pay as little as possible for the one variable cost that effectively is lost once paid.  The true value is only in the use and the true cost the ongoing fees.  More and more buyers are realizing that and are seriously reducing what they will offer on resale.  It started with areas that had other fees such as air fare required simply to use the time and has now become virtually universal as people realize that buyers are the scarce commodity while resorts - even the best ones and best times - are virtually a dime a dozen.  The oft repeated mantra of far too many owners seems to be "yes, timeshare value are down but MINE are too good to be subject to lower resale/rental value".  99% of the time they are wrong but until they actually try to sell or rent they don't realize it and really, while they enjoy using it, no harm no foul. Just hope they don't get all upset when the truth finally hits them.  

Buy any timeshare to use and at places you want to visit for as little as possible and timeshare can be a great way to vacation in great places for low overall cost.


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## Steve (May 28, 2011)

pwrshift said:


> Another shocker...
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...=&sspagename=ADME:B:WNA:US:1123#ht_4064wt_689
> 
> ...



What's more, this auction was for an annual 2 bedroom lockoff in the Sequel section of Manor Club.  The ad doesn't stress this, but if you look at the unit number (3217), it is clearly a lockoff.  

Steve


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## thinze3 (May 28, 2011)

Wow! That was $8-10K just a few short years ago.

A 2BR annual white season (gold) DSV II just ended with no bids and a $1 starting bid. I just checked and a 2BR DSV I in October can be had for about $522 as a getaway.  That's half of MF's and Taxes.

Why own when you can rent for much less?


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## ondeadlin (May 28, 2011)

thinze3 said:


> Why own when you can rent for much less?



And that, ultimately, is why prices are so low. People are doing the math.

This is the new normal for all but the best seasons at a very small group of resorts (beach, ski and a handful of others where demand significantly outpaces supply).


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## jesuis1837 (May 29, 2011)

Can we blame the now super Marriott Points Program :ignore:  for that downfall...???


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## bogey21 (May 29, 2011)

thinze3 said:


> Why own when you can rent for much less?


That is clearly part of it.  Another is the ever increasing MFs.  Who wants to be locked in to spending over $1,000 every year for a vacation they might not take for one reason or another?

George


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## Big Matt (May 29, 2011)

I think you need to have this logic:

1) pay the $950 maintenance fee
2) lock off for $75
3) trade for 2 1BR or larger units over the next two years in II.  

You get two great vacations for a little over $625 per week

If you can't spend that much, then times are tough.  



bogey21 said:


> That is clearly part of it.  Another is the ever increasing MFs.  Who wants to be locked in to spending over $1,000 every year for a vacation they might not take for one reason or another?
> 
> George


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## winger (May 29, 2011)

Big Matt said:


> I think you need to have this logic:
> 
> 1) pay the $950 maintenance fee
> 2) lock off for $75
> ...



Matt, it depends. For those of us who own non-lockoff-able (is this a word?) units (like our original Manor Club), this point of view does not work.  For us, our home unit and/or units exchanged to are hopefully awesome resorts to make the annual $1000'ish in fees worth the 7 nights.


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## pwrshift (May 29, 2011)

With the exception of last year, II has given an AC for MMC prime deposits, which does give owners another 7 nights for a pretty reasonable price and if you're not locked into holidays in summer these ACs have good value.  On that note, the last time I split MSE and deposited them I got an AC for the 1 bdrm portion...so 3 weeks for 2...and that has always been the appeal of trading with MSE over MMC.  For stays at the resort I prefer the original side (MMC)...as the MSE studios don't have balconies and are further from the 'office'.

Brian


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## Big Matt (May 30, 2011)

I do the same thing as Brian every year.  

In fact, I often trade back into the MMC side with either the studio or 1BR.


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## kjd (May 30, 2011)

We've had this discussion many times but we still have some folks who want to look at their timeshare purchase as an "investment".  Then they can apply all of the investment metrics to any purchase and come up with the conclusion that they have made a bad deal.  It's easy to blame Marriott (with some good reasons) for the market's decline but, the entire premise of the ownership argument is wrong.

The timeshare purchase is more of a license to use the Marriott program than a real estate purchase.  The new point system recognizes that.  It's sort of like a golf membership or a seat license at an NFL stadium.  In other words you enjoy the activity and when you are finished there is no guarantee of any equity.  For those who were told that time-sharing is an investment you were lied to.  For those who assumed it they were mistaken.  Evidently this happened, given the number of people who are complaining.

As with a golf course there are good ones and bad ones.  The good ones are always more expensive to join than the bad ones.  The bad ones usually go bankrupt and morph into something else like affordable housing.  However, if there are fewer golfers then the cost of a good membership declines. That's what's happening here.  We are currently at the bottom of the market.  Resale prices will improve somewhat when the vacation market improves. Developers must take the hit they are now taking in order to discourage them from building additional inventory.  That's the reality of any market.

For those of us who purchased with the idea of using the Marriott system the resale prices have no affect.  If eventually, like the aged golfer, you have no further desire to use the system you should have gotten your money's worth in usage no matter what you paid.  These remorseful arguments about values are then moot.


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## Big Matt (May 30, 2011)

Great post.

It is a prepaid vacation deal at best.  I think that more people finance their purchase than want to admit also.  This makes the idea of resale prices even more disturbing to folks.



kjd said:


> We've had this discussion many times but we still have some folks who want to look at their timeshare purchase as an "investment".  Then they can apply all of the investment metrics to any purchase and come up with the conclusion that they have made a bad deal.  It's easy to blame Marriott (with some good reasons) for the market's decline but, the entire premise of the ownership argument is wrong.
> 
> The timeshare purchase is more of a license to use the Marriott program than a real estate purchase.  The new point system recognizes that.  It's sort of like a golf membership or a seat license at an NFL stadium.  In other words you enjoy the activity and when you are finished there is no guarantee of any equity.  For those who were told that time-sharing is an investment you were lied to.  For those who assumed it they were mistaken.  Evidently this happened, given the number of people who are complaining.
> 
> ...


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## bogey21 (May 30, 2011)

As I have said many times, I dumped my Marriott Weeks years ago (at a profit I might add) when they started screwing with their Rental and Sales Programs.  I have watched Marriott deteoriate ever since.

Having said that, if I were younger; back in the  family vacation mode; seeing the current prices; and with the knowledge I've picked up over the years via TUG; I'd be inclined to consider buying a  Marriott Week again.  IMO what Marriott offers today is vastly different that what I once owned and sold.

George


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## timeos2 (May 30, 2011)

bogey21 said:


> As I have said many times, I dumped my Marriott Weeks years ago (at a profit I might add) when they started screwing with their Rental and Sales Programs.  I have watched Marriott deteoriate ever since.
> 
> Having said that, if I were younger; back in the  family vacation mode; seeing the current prices; and with the knowledge I've picked up over the years via TUG; I'd be inclined to consider buying a  Marriott Week again.  IMO what Marriott offers today is vastly different that what I once owned and sold.
> 
> George



For a relatively short time some owners/buyers incorrectly accepted the fact that since timeshares were (then) mostly deeded and treated as you would a purchase of a home they were in fact buying a tiny share of a standard condo that would act like a whole ownership condo or real estate in general at that time and increase in value.  Unfortunately the market for resales never came together and what little there was decided the restrictions on and the obligations to timeshares made them far less valuable than just a stand alone condo would be.  This then got compounded by the sales model almost universally adopted by developers of using incredibly high cost marketing/ sales techniques leading to original prices that guaranteed a huge loss of principal the day the rescind period ran out. 

Over time people realized that some time periods carried much higher value for trade or use than others yet the model - and in many cases State laws - demanded every interval pay the same annual amount.  Then the fees rose - in many cases by 100-300% or more - as subsidies from Developers ended and large, expensive buildings and site improvements became the sole responsibility of those deeded owners.  Finally the operation and maintenance of timeshares proved to be much closer to the high priced hotel style, transient model than the single, owner occupied condo style. Artificially high purchase cost, often limited use/rental/trade values, high priced operational model and lack of a well defined resale venue / process. 

Put all that together and you have a situation where there are literally thousands of sellers and - maybe - hundreds of potential buyers for them all.  That means the options for that extremely limited pool of willing resale buyers are huge - and options for sellers are virtually zero. No matter what/where you own chances are there is an option for the buyer meaning no pressure to pay a high price. If sellers try to hold out buyers just look - and usually find - low cost rentals (so many people looking to get something - anything - from their expensive annual payments) that sellers have virtually no leverage whatsoever. The "location, location, location" argument of valuable real estate simply doesn't apply to even the outstanding locations of some timeshares as they cannot be easily sold except as chopped up slices with little or no chance of any individual owner(s) gaining control over any sale. It makes what could be a valuable site virtually worthless to investors thus killing any true underlying real estate value. 

I love our remaining timeshares and feel we get good value from them but we have now dumped 6 and held on to only 2 as renting is is much more reasonable and offers much better control over what/where/when you are able to get and saves the ever rising cost of exchange - an unneeded additional overhead.  My best advice today to any owner that thinks they are going to want to sell out due to loss of perceived value to them do it now!  Although depressed the market is unlikely to get better anytime soon as more and more become disillusioned with the fee/value ratio.  Take advantage of the incredible values renting now offers. As for buyers it is a GREAT time to pick up a true bargain IF YOU PLAN TO USE IT! DO NOT buy to rent or trade - sure ways to be disappointed - buy what you want, where you want preferably at an owner controlled resort (as they tend to be the best managed, best value propositions) that has a history of stable fees for a quality product.  Make sure they are positioned to be competitive year round - not too many intervals that aren't worth the annual fee in rent / trade. 

By looking to that type of resort either relatively non-seasonal or one that has provided for good value in traditionally low demand times and you should have a winner.  You won't have too pay much and will have a place to enjoy at reasonable rates for years to come. Pay too much, buy to rent or trade and you'll join the masses that are feeling trapped in bad situations we read here all too often. Timeshares are NOT investments they are lifestyle decisions.  Trying to make them seem like real estate even in the boom times is a big mistake. They do not follow the rules of that market but a unique on all their own.


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## CalBoomer (May 31, 2011)

ronparise said:


> Your post begs the question(s)...How much is any timeshare worth? and How do you figure it?
> 
> Real Estate is typically valued by one of three methods
> 1) market value, ie supply and demand; the price a willing buyer and willing seller agree on
> ...



I couldn't agree more with most of these comments. I am in the small minority of people who has recently bought two timeshares (Summit Watch and Custom House  platinums) for use in retirement--on the resale market for pretty low prices, pretty close to the Ebay resales. I plan to use them, not trade them, for at least 10 years or as long as I can ski for the one. Even if I amortized their cost over 10 years as a total loss (not likely) and added in the MF, I could still not rent something similar in the same locations for the same price per year. Alternatively, if I rented them out at the going rates minus the MF, I would be making 10% per annum on my money, which I have not been able to achieve elsewhere. So, I do think there are ways to value these things. My only disagreement is that I do not see the best seasons in the premier places going down to $1. That ignominy will be reserved for the shoulder seasons at the resorts in less demand.


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## KathyPet (May 31, 2011)

As a MMC owner since 1994 this is just too depressing for words!


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## Big Matt (May 31, 2011)

Kathy, 
my question to you is....are you planning to sell?  If not, it really doesn't matter.  You still own a great resort (as do I).  

People were flipping out at low prices at Newport Coast also.  That place is awesome.


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## KathyPet (May 31, 2011)

Actually I called the resale dept about 3 years ago to put my name on the list of those people who wanted to sell and of course have never been contacted.  Do they still even have a resale dept for deeded weeks?


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## pedro47 (May 31, 2011)

KathyPet said:


> As a MMC owner since 1994 this is just too depressing for words!



I am triple shock at this low price!!!  The Manor Club is a jewel.


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## kds4 (May 31, 2011)

Big Matt said:


> I think you need to have this logic:
> 
> 1) pay the $950 maintenance fee
> 2) lock off for $75
> ...



We have been able to go one step farther. We lock-off our 3BR MGV, deposit both in II, then split each of those into two 6 night short stay exchanges. Now you have four 6 night stays out of one 3BR unit... 24 nights instead of 7!


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## MikeM132 (Jun 1, 2011)

Big Matt said:


> This isn't new.  Manor Club weeks have been selling in this range for a while.  Same for Grande Vista, Cypress Harbour, the non-beach Hilton Head, etc.
> 
> With the economy people can't even justify paying the maintenance fees.
> 
> ...



I think Marriott is going to be hit with depressed values because of their super-high maintenance fees like regular real estate is in high-tax areas. Selling price is usually a combination of property value and taxes (or maintenance fees). Marriott is killing us with some of the highest fees in the timeshare world, and they are not slowing down despite the economy.


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## Steve (Jun 6, 2011)

Here's the latest eBay auction result for a platinum Manor Club week:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...0&si=ZcNfia9pofKKeZkbcdoI7EOEkuQ%3D&viewitem=

It sold for $680.  The downward trend continues...and this is the peak summer buying season for timeshares.

Steve


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## OldPantry (Jun 6, 2011)

kjd said:


> We've had this discussion many times but we still have some folks who want to look at their timeshare purchase as an "investment".  Then they can apply all of the investment metrics to any purchase and come up with the conclusion that they have made a bad deal.  It's easy to blame Marriott (with some good reasons) for the market's decline but, the entire premise of the ownership argument is wrong.
> 
> The timeshare purchase is more of a license to use the Marriott program than a real estate purchase.  The new point system recognizes that.  It's sort of like a golf membership or a seat license at an NFL stadium.  In other words you enjoy the activity and when you are finished there is no guarantee of any equity.  For those who were told that time-sharing is an investment you were lied to.  For those who assumed it they were mistaken.  Evidently this happened, given the number of people who are complaining.
> 
> ...


Come on, who didn't buy with the intention of using the Marriott system?   You're killing a straw man there.  You've heard the "investment" argument before, and I've heard the "license" argument over and over too.  The only thing, though, is that you were told something quite different when you bought your developer week.  The sales pitch stressed the purchase as an investment, over and over.  I simply don't believe the folks who now say they knew they were just buying entree to a lifestyle all along, and are comfortable with the fact that the money is gone.  It's fine to rationalize our mistakes, but to scorn those who feel let down because their "investment" went sour is a bit much.


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## pwrshift (Aug 11, 2011)

*Manor Club UP to $1426 on eBay*

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110724432906#ht_4460wt_689


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