# Resale purchase now or later



## Millisara (Apr 11, 2011)

I  would like to eventually purchase a Marriott week resale but was wondering what you guys thought. With the recent changes it might be better to wait and see where the dust settles first.


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## Bill4728 (Apr 11, 2011)

If you like the old style "floating week at a single marriott resort" then buying now is a great deal. We just picked-up a great week at Newport coast for $5500. We thought is was a good deal 2 years ago for $7500 

Also the points needed to reserve under the new system would cost about $27,000


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## LAX Mom (Apr 11, 2011)

Bill4728 said:


> If you like the old style "floating week at a single marriott resort" then buying now is a great deal. We just picked-up a great week at Newport coast for $5500. We thought is was a good deal 2 years ago for $7500
> 
> Also the points needed to reserve under the new system would cost about $27,000



Bill, 
Was that $5500 for a gold week at Newport Coast? Great buy! I almost prefer the gold weeks there. July & August are too crowded for me.


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## Bill4728 (Apr 11, 2011)

Yes it is the gold week  (first week of Jan to mid June)


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## CalBoomer (Apr 12, 2011)

If this isn't the market bottom, it's close enough so that any downside risk is reasonably small. No matter what price someone pays at resale for anything, someone on this forum will criticize it as being higher than some eBay sale. Pay no attention. If you buy a platinum season now at a popular resort that you actually want to go to regularly, I don't see how you could go wrong. We are currently in the process of buying a resale ski week at Summit Watch and a summer-fall week at the Custom House, both places we plan to visit regularly in retirement. The prices were so good that I could make 10-12% on my investment if I did nothing but rent them.


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## larryallen (Apr 12, 2011)

I think the only downside is MF's going up, up, up. I have followed the Westin Maui. Their MF's have gone from $900 a year to $2,500 a year in about a 5 year time span. A variety of factors for that but that's a huge difference!


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## JanT (Apr 12, 2011)

Yikes!!!  


larryallen said:


> I think the only downside is MF's going up, up, up. I have followed the Westin Maui. Their MF's have gone from $900 a year to $2,500 a year in about a 5 year time span. A variety of factors for that but that's a huge difference!


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## Mamianka (Apr 12, 2011)

larryallen said:


> I think the only downside is MF's going up, up, up. I have followed the Westin Maui. Their MF's have gone from $900 a year to $2,500 a year in about a 5 year time span. A variety of factors for that but that's a huge difference!



This is what stopped US from purchasing more time. Those MFs are "the gift that keeps on giving" . . .


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## OldPantry (Apr 12, 2011)

Millisara said:


> I  would like to eventually purchase a Marriott week resale but was wondering what you guys thought. With the recent changes it might be better to wait and see where the dust settles first.


The uncertainty regarding the points program has clearly depressed prices even further, and they might drop more ... who knows?  Nevertheless, I too would say that this is a pretty good time to buy.  The economy seems to be recovering well, people are traveling again, and hotel rates are rising.  This could, eventually, result in higher resale prices for good-quality timeshares.

The point about ever-rising maintenance fees is key.  Are you willing and able to pay them?  And is the cost of a week, adjusted upward for opportunity cost (i.e., what the money would have earned if you hadn't spent it on a timeshare), favorable relative to what you could reasonably expect to pay to rent the same type of unit?

If getting your money back eventually is important, then I would suggest focusing on top quality.  Platinum beach and ski weeks have held up much better than gold, silver, bronze, white, etc. Many of the latter have lost value to the point that you cannot give them away.  They are a permanent burden, and ultimately a threat to the owners' financial well-being.


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## Millisara (Apr 12, 2011)

OldPantry said:


> The uncertainty regarding the points program has clearly depressed prices even further, and they might drop more ... who knows?  Nevertheless, I too would say that this is a pretty good time to buy.  The economy seems to be recovering well, people are traveling again, and hotel rates are rising.  This could, eventually, result in higher resale prices for good-quality timeshares.
> 
> The point about ever-rising maintenance fees is key.  Are you willing and able to pay them?  And is the cost of a week, adjusted upward for opportunity cost (i.e., what the money would have earned if you hadn't spent it on a timeshare), favorable relative to what you could reasonably expect to pay to rent the same type of unit?
> 
> If getting your money back eventually is important, then I would suggest focusing on top quality.  Platinum beach and ski weeks have held up much better than gold, silver, bronze, white, etc. Many of the latter have lost value to the point that you cannot give them away.  They are a permanent burden, and ultimately a threat to the owners' financial well-being.


Old Pantry that brings up another question.  I would likely use the HH Marriott during the Gold Season yet the Platinum season is what will hold it value. Say in 10 to 15 yrs if I want to sell it, it is the Plat that will sell before the GOld.  Do I buy what I would use like I read here on Tug or what will sell in 10 + yrs so that my children, if they decide they don't want it, will not be burdened with the MF? Is it hard to deposit a Plat to trade for a Gold within the Marriott system?


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## MOXJO7282 (Apr 12, 2011)

CalBoomer said:


> If this isn't the market bottom, it's close enough so that any downside risk is reasonably small. No matter what price someone pays at resale for anything, someone on this forum will criticize it as being higher than some eBay sale. Pay no attention. If you buy a platinum season now at a popular resort that you actually want to go to regularly, I don't see how you could go wrong. We are currently in the process of buying a resale ski week at Summit Watch and a summer-fall week at the Custom House, both places we plan to visit regularly in retirement. The prices were so good that I could make 10-12% on my investment if I did nothing but rent them.



The locations that I watch are the ones I own and I can tell you for sure the prices are on there way up.


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## BarbS (Apr 12, 2011)

Millisara said:


> Old Pantry that brings up another question.  I would likely use the HH Marriott during the Gold Season yet the Platinum season is what will hold it value. Say in 10 to 15 yrs if I want to sell it, it is the Plat that will sell before the GOld.  Do I buy what I would use like I read here on Tug or what will sell in 10 + yrs so that my children, if they decide they don't want it, will not be burdened with the MF? Is it hard to deposit a Plat to trade for a Gold within the Marriott system?



IMO it would be foolish to spend more money to buy a platinum when you prefer to go in the gold season.  Save your money and buy the season you really want.  Lots of people prefer gold season to platinum anyway, especially those who do not have school aged children.  A gold HH week will always sell, especially if it's oceanfront.  It's just not true that only the platinum weeks have any value.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 12, 2011)

IMO the DC is Marriott's new baby and they're going to do whatever they can to ensure its success, including making changes that could negatively affect existing Weeks.  That's the overriding concern which I would have about purchasing a Marriott Week, and it's why I would consider purchasing one only if I know that I will want to use it in season on an annual basis and only if over-estimated MF's of +10% each year won't break my budget.  Keeping to those two parameters means that there is less chance of my purchase not being usable in the future.  (And I might be pleasantly surprised by better-than-anticipated exchange possibilities and lower-than-anticipated MF's.)

Any expectation of resale value is, IMO, unreasonable.  Of course direct purchases are much more vulnerable in this but I wouldn't buy any timeshare with an expectation of being able to sell it down the road for a certain price.  Marriott is not responsible for upholding a resale value, and they've proven time and again that they will make changes which will result in devaluations.  Again, maybe you could be pleasantly surprised, but I think it's "better safe than sorry" to expect less than your purchase price whenever you sell.

Any expectation of possible exchanges is a crapshoot, IMO, because of the introduction of the DC and the negative impact it could have on II inventory.  That's on top of the exchange uncertainty that has always existed because of provisions in the Marriott and II governing docs which do allow for changes that could negatively affect trade values and/or practices.  Private exchanges through sites like redweek could be a solution, of course, but the companies which deal with the most inventory will be the more successful options.

Another concern for me is the impending spin-off of Marriott's timeshare business.  I think it's possible the transition can happen seamlessly without any practical changes to our ownerships, BUT.  And that's a gigantic BUT!  The implications could be far-reaching.  One facet has to do with exchanges - within all of the discussions about the DC and the spin-off, some of these savvy TUGgers have pointed out how Marriott could position itself to be a mega company for both internal and external exchanges.  What would happen then with II?  If you own an external resale and they don't ever allow it to be enrolled in the DC, and II is negatively affected by the DC and the spin-off, where will that leave you?

I really don't think the question is whether to buy a resale Week now or later, I think it's whether to buy one at all!  Contrary to most every savvy TUG opinion out there, if I was looking to add to my ownership right now and wanted to stick with the Marriott brand, I'd purchase DC Points.  Marriott has proven time and again that if/when they make changes, they'll offer more protection to direct than external purchasers.  With so many changes to Marriott timeshares this year and upcoming, I'd want whatever that level of protection might be.


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## OldPantry (Apr 12, 2011)

BarbS said:


> IMO it would be foolish to spend more money to buy a platinum when you prefer to go in the gold season.  Save your money and buy the season you really want.  Lots of people prefer gold season to platinum anyway, especially those who do not have school aged children.  A gold HH week will always sell, especially if it's oceanfront.  It's just not true that only the platinum weeks have any value.


This is a reasonable point, particularly as regards an ocean-front unit (another form of premium value).  However, isn't it perfectly possible (in fact, likely) to exchange a platinum week for a gold one?  So, if you like the off season, you can get it any time you like, and can still have the leverage for favorable trades elsewhere.  My stress on platinum is oriented to long-term value, and the best chance of getting the money back.  While that might be possible with a second-tier week, it's a good deal riskier.


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## BarbS (Apr 12, 2011)

OldPantry said:


> This is a reasonable point, particularly as regards an ocean-front unit (another form of premium value).  However, isn't it perfectly possible (in fact, likely) to exchange a platinum week for a gold one?  So, if you like the off season, you can get it any time you like, and can still have the leverage for favorable trades elsewhere.  My stress on platinum is oriented to long-term value, and the best chance of getting the money back.  While that might be possible with a second-tier week, it's a good deal riskier.



All that is true.  However, if you purchase OF, you will lose your view in a trade.  That would be very important to me, but maybe not to everyone.  I've gotten every trade I've ever requested using my Barony Beach gold and my Aruba Surf Club gold.  You're advising the poster to spend maybe twice as much for a platinum week even though they really want a gold week.  That makes no sense to me.

I wonder if some of the posters who continue to disparage gold weeks as being worthless have ever been to Hilton Head in the gold season, when the weather is perfect IMO, compared to platinum season, when it's hot as hades......and a time when I would not want to be there.  I don't believe the poster said anything about looking for a good trader, but was just worried about being able to sell at some time in the future.  I can't see any possible scenario where a gold HH week would not sell.


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## OldPantry (Apr 12, 2011)

SueDonJ said:


> IMO the DC is Marriott's new baby and they're going to do whatever they can to ensure its success, including making changes that could negatively affect existing Weeks.
> 
> Any expectation of resale value is, IMO, unreasonable.  Of course direct purchases are much more vulnerable in this but I wouldn't buy any timeshare with an expectation of being able to sell it down the road for a certain price.  Marriott is not responsible for upholding a resale value, and they've proven time and again that they will make changes which will result in devaluations.  Again, maybe you could be pleasantly surprised, but I think it's "better safe than sorry" to expect less than your purchase price whenever you sell.
> ...
> I really don't think the question is whether to buy a resale Week now or later, I think it's whether to buy one at all!  Contrary to most every savvy TUG opinion out there, if I was looking to add to my ownership right now and wanted to stick with the Marriott brand, I'd purchase DC Points.  Marriott has proven time and again that if/when they make changes, they'll offer more protection to direct than external purchasers.  With so many changes to Marriott timeshares this year and upcoming, I'd want whatever that level of protection might be.


Sue, 
Isn't there a severe disconnect here?  You acknowledge that Marriott has taken steps to damage the value of their traditional timeshares severely, yet conclude by suggesting a newbie buy DC points because Marriott's going to "do whatever it takes" to make the program a success.  Isn't it clear that this supportive approach will last only as long as Marriott is making a killing by selling points?  What happens then to that "level of protection"?

And what about those points?  You correctly flag the dilemma legacy owners face in selling their weeks, but seem impervious to the problems facing the poor folks who will eventually want to offload their huge investment in DC points.  Do you really think the points MFs will not eventually take the same trajectory as timeshare MFs?  If so, they too will become a burden to many points owners, and they too will want to bail.  At that point, they will face a punitive $1/point ROFR fee (a 10% penalty) and the likelihood of discriminatory treatment by Spinco for the buyer.  Who's going to buy under those circumstances, and at what price?  (Not to mention the fact, without repeating the analysis of why VC points are overpriced, that real nightly costs, properly accounted for, are huge.)

If you're going to lecture someone about resale risk, then you should at least be even-handed.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 12, 2011)

BarbS said:


> All that is true.  However, if you purchase OF, you will lose your view in a trade.  That would be very important to me, but maybe not to everyone.  I've gotten every trade I've ever requested using my Barony Beach gold and my Aruba Surf Club gold.  You're advising the poster to spend maybe twice as much for a platinum week even though they really want a gold week.  That makes no sense to me.
> 
> I wonder if some of the posters who continue to disparage gold weeks as being worthless have ever been to Hilton Head in the gold season, when the weather is perfect IMO, compared to platinum season, when it's hot as hades......and a time when I would not want to be there.  I don't believe the poster said anything about looking for a good trader, but was just worried about being able to sell at some time in the future.  I can't see any possible scenario where a gold HH week would not sell.



Barb, I completely agree with you about buying and using the view you want, and Hilton Head being much more enjoyable during Gold season than Plat.  There are many of us who feel the same way, so like you I'd expect that a HH Gold will have some relative value on the resale market (although I'd never put a guesstimate on any selling prices or expect a guaranteed return.)  And of course a HH Plat would be higher-priced, but if you're not going to use a HH Plat for anything but trading to Gold, you'd be risking your view every time you go as well as the differential between purchasing a Plat or a Gold.  Not worth the risk, IMO.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 12, 2011)

OldPantry said:


> Sue,
> Isn't there a severe disconnect here?  You acknowledge that Marriott has taken steps to damage the value of their traditional timeshares severely, yet conclude by suggesting a newbie buy DC points because Marriott's going to "do whatever it takes" to make the program a success.  Isn't it clear that this supportive approach will last only as long as Marriott is making a killing by selling points?  What happens then to that "level of protection"?
> 
> And what about those points?  You correctly flag the dilemma legacy owners face in selling their weeks, but seem impervious to the problems facing the poor folks who will eventually want to offload their huge investment in DC points.  Do you really think the points MFs will not eventually take the same trajectory as timeshare MFs?  If so, they too will become a burden to many points owners, and they too will want to bail.  At that point, they will face a punitive $1/point ROFR fee (a 10% penalty) and the likelihood of discriminatory treatment by Spinco for the buyer.  Who's going to buy under those circumstances, and at what price?  (Not to mention the fact, without repeating the analysis of why VC points are overpriced, that real nightly costs, properly accounted for, are huge.)
> ...



Hmmm.  If that came across as a lecture then I'm sorry, because I honestly didn't mean it that way at all.     I was just trying to say why I'm leery about making ANY purchase in this climate, and why an external resale of a Week would make me more nervous than a direct purchase of DC Points.  I wasn't thinking of it as the classic TUG discussion of resale v. direct purchase, but in the context that US Weeks are only available resale and DC Points are only available direct, and Marriott has historically "protected" direct purchases more than external resales.  Maybe I should have answered more simply, just to say that IF I was looking to add to my ownership, I would feel more secure with a direct purchase but would wait a while for all of the Marriott changes to shake out before purchasing anything?

We love our Marriott Weeks and know that they've added immense enjoyment to our lives.  But I do think that it's important to recognize that there are significant changes happening with Marriott timeshares that will impact today's purchases moreso than any purchase from say, a year ago, and only time will tell.  As you correctly state, there are too many unknowns with DC Points.  My point is that there are new unknowns to consider with Weeks purchases, too.  That's the gist of what I'm trying to say.


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## OldPantry (Apr 12, 2011)

BarbS said:


> All that is true.  However, if you purchase OF, you will lose your view in a trade.  That would be very important to me, but maybe not to everyone.
> I wonder if some of the posters who continue to disparage gold weeks as being worthless have ever been to Hilton Head in the gold season, when the weather is perfect IMO, compared to platinum season, when it's hot as hades......and a time when I would not want to be there.  I don't believe the poster said anything about looking for a good trader, but was just worried about being able to sell at some time in the future.  I can't see any possible scenario where a gold HH week would not sell.


Good point about losing the view.  Could you address that with a request first?  If you don't get the view, you could refuse the trade.  But a plat to a gold would likely go through on your terms, wouldn't it?
As to disparaging gold weeks, well I didn't intend that at all.  I think, in general, that they have lost value far more steeply than platinum, but wouldn't disagree that some have, and will continue to have, residual value.  And I couldn't agree more about the advantages of a South Carolina May or October over July or August.  I thought the place was an inferno last time I went in late August.


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## IngridN (Apr 12, 2011)

OldPantry said:


> Good point about losing the view.  Could you address that with a request first?  If you don't get the view, you could refuse the trade.  But a plat to a gold would likely go through on your terms, wouldn't it?
> As to disparaging gold weeks, well I didn't intend that at all.  I think, in general, that they have lost value far more steeply than platinum, but wouldn't disagree that some have, and will continue to have, residual value.  And I couldn't agree more about the advantages of a South Carolina May or October over July or August.  I thought the place was an inferno last time I went in late August.



Currently, you need to trade with II. Even if you get the view via request first there are still two problems. One, you're not guaranteed that Marriott will place you in that unit and two, as an exchanger changing back to your resort, you are lower in the view queue, meaning a lesser view within that view type. 

Personally, in this case, I would purchase gold in the season I want to go.

Ingrid


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## BocaBoy (Apr 12, 2011)

SueDonJ said:


> *Marriott has proven time and again that if/when they make changes, they'll offer more protection to direct than external purchasers.*  With so many changes to Marriott timeshares this year and upcoming, I'd want whatever that level of protection might be.



I respectfully disagree with the bolded statement.  For example, with DC they let previous resale purchasers join (although at a higher price) but have made resale of developer purchased weeks through Marriott Resales ineligible for DC.  This is huge and primarily hurts pre-June 20th Marriott internal purchasers.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 12, 2011)

BocaBoy said:


> I respectfully disagree with the bolded statement.  For example, with DC they let previous resale purchasers join (although at a higher price) but have made resale of developer purchased weeks through Marriott Resales ineligible for DC.  This is huge and primarily hurts pre-June 20th Marriott internal purchasers.



Like everyone else I'm baffled that Marriott rolled out the DC without formulating the implications for post-6/20/10 internal Weeks resales and future DC Points resales.  But the "protection" of those things IS written into the DC governing docs - in the stipulation for using approved brokers (which IMO will be those who charge Marriott prices) - if/when Marriott decides to implement it.  But owners of post-6/20/10 external resales don't have any hope at all of relying on doc language to change the current "not eligible for enrollment" classification.

I realize there are still far too many "ifs" even with this viewpoint, but that's what I meant by saying that I want whatever protection might be given even if it's minimal and/or not in place now.  These aren't easy times to be Marriott timeshare owners; we're all dependent upon the success of the new DC program and the spin-off company.  I hope the future of Marriott's timeshare business is as successful as the company must have projected, and I hope that with the success comes options that are less restrictive than what we're facing now.  If the docs contain language that allow an easing of restrictions in certain situations, those of us in such situations will be at least better off than if the docs didn't contain such language.

Aside from all that, I think that being "hurt" by losing the upfront money on a timeshare purchase is not always the worst "hurt" you can suffer - losing usage value over the life of the ownership could be much worse.  IMO, minimizing the devaluations you may encounter is a safer alternative than hoping against any devaluations.  Which brings us back around to this thread - if you purchase an external resale Week now it should be with the intent of using it annually in the manner guaranteed by the docs, and with no expectation of exchange or resale value which has never been guaranteed and is now more uncertain.


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## m61376 (Apr 12, 2011)

I concur that if you want to go in the Gold season, then buy gold. Your outlay will be far less, and over the decade at least of use you'll certainly get your money's worth, and will always be able to sell the unit even if you get a little less. 

As for buying points- I'd think long and hard there. Many of the legacy week owners who enrolled are doing so for the potential to exchange if they so desire and/or for the savings in points, but even the relatively small percentage of ownership who have joined are not uniformly exchanging their weeks for points. The potential backlash to the skim is that many owners will continue to use their weeks as weeks, leaving less inventory in the pool for point reservations. This is particularly problematic in areas where all or most of the inventory is in legacy weeks and where there is little or no inventory in the trust and, in many cases. Furthermore, it is always the Plat. and Gold weeks that get sold out first, so the bulk of some of the inventory in the trust is actually from Silver or Bronze weeks at some locales. Despite the rosy picture that Marriott tries to paint, in order to make reservations with points units have to be available, and in many cases that depends on legacy week owners having exchanged their ownership in a given year in for points. 

Unlike week ownership, there is no guarantee of being able to reserve any given resort or any given season. If Marriott just continues to sell points and does not further develop properties, then point owners may increasingly be vying with each other for limited inventory. I am not so sure that buying points is a wise decision today either.

Personally, I would only buy something today which I largely intended to use.


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## OldPantry (Apr 12, 2011)

m61376 said:


> I concur that if you want to go in the Gold season, then buy gold. Your outlay will be far less, and over the decade at least of use you'll certainly get your money's worth, and will always be able to sell the unit even if you get a little less.
> 
> As for buying points- I'd think long and hard there. Many of the legacy week owners who enrolled are doing so for the potential to exchange if they so desire and/or for the savings in points, but even the relatively small percentage of ownership who have joined are not uniformly exchanging their weeks for points. The potential backlash to the skim is that many owners will continue to use their weeks as weeks, leaving less inventory in the pool for point reservations. This is particularly problematic in areas where all or most of the inventory is in legacy weeks and where there is little or no inventory in the trust and, in many cases. Furthermore, it is always the Plat. and Gold weeks that get sold out first, so the bulk of some of the inventory in the trust is actually from Silver or Bronze weeks at some locales. Despite the rosy picture that Marriott tries to paint, in order to make reservations with points units have to be available, and in many cases that depends on legacy week owners having exchanged their ownership in a given year in for points.
> 
> ...


I'll chime in to agree with the advice that you should buy primarily with an eye towards use, at the chosen resort, in the chosen season.  However, I'm not quite as pessimistic about exchange possibilities as some of the TUGers.  Ongoing concerns about getting what you want by exchanging for points might make many people more likely to use II for trading.  As this continues to be a much larger pool of weeks than the Trust possesses, legacy resale purchasers might continue to do quite well in II, if they have something good to trade.


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## JimIg23 (Apr 13, 2011)

We really like Marriott and have had great vacations in our TSs.  Even at the prices I bought at, with lock offs, etc, I still think I recieved a good value for my investiment into TSing.  But I would not buy anything anymore.  I dont think the Marriotts resale prices hit bottom yet (unless they are all $1), MFs  go up every year.  Trying to selling a $1 TS if you cannot afford the MFs is pretty difficult.  I would just rent through redweek.

I know most here wont agree, but I do have a small hope that if Marriott begins to allow deeded weeks that joined the system to resale both their deeded weeks and point allocation together, it may help resales.


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## SuperBeav39 (Apr 13, 2011)

*My quick $0.02*

My only advice for purchasing resale would be to wait until the end of the year if your plans allow.  The supply available is much higher during that period as folks are trying to unload their properties before the MFs are due.  In my experience you'll see a lot more ebay auctions with no reserve at that point, and you have the chance to snag a really nice deal.


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## gores95 (Apr 13, 2011)

JimIg23 said:


> We really like Marriott and have had great vacations in our TSs.  Even at the prices I bought at, with lock offs, etc, I still think I recieved a good value for my investiment into TSing.  But I would not buy anything anymore.  I dont think the Marriotts resale prices hit bottom yet (unless they are all $1), MFs  go up every year.  Trying to selling a $1 TS if you cannot afford the MFs is pretty difficult.  I would just rent through redweek..



I agree wholeheartedly.  I would never buy another TS as renting a week you want thru an owner is easy once you know where to look (Redweek, eBay, My Resort Network).  There is such a glut on rental inventory at this point that makes the need for owning a TS week uneccessary imho.  I know primo times like Xmas/New Years and Presidents' weeks can get expensive to rent but if you have patience and foresight you can rent most times of year more affordably than owning and paying the price of the TS + yearly MF.  So I would not buy another resale at this point.


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## Steve (Apr 13, 2011)

It's been interesting reading the various opinions expressed.  I have been trying to decide if now is a good time for me to purchase or not.  I can tell you that sales are picking up a bit.  Prices are still very depressed, but there are buyers out there.  I have sold 2 weeks in the past month.

While the advice to wait and buy at the end of the year when maitenance fees are due is totally sound, I think that this year it might be wise to consider the good deals as you find them.  

Steve


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## scpoidog (Apr 13, 2011)

*Time between sale and deed*



SuperBeav39 said:


> My only advice for purchasing resale would be to wait until the end of the year if your plans allow.  The supply available is much higher during that period as folks are trying to unload their properties before the MFs are due.  In my experience you'll see a lot more ebay auctions with no reserve at that point, and you have the chance to snag a really nice deal.



Keep in mind that there may be a significant amount of time from when you stroke a check and when Marriott records your deed and you can then use your week. Hawaii transfers seem to take over four months as the state is difficult to deal with. 

So if you want to use your timeshare in April, buying in Dec or Jan might be cutting it close for reservations.


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## Davidr (Apr 14, 2011)

OldPantry said:


> Good point about losing the view.  Could you address that with a request first?  If you don't get the view, you could refuse the trade.  But a plat to a gold would likely go through on your terms, wouldn't it?



When you trade thru II there is no view associated with your trade.  You get whatever view the resort wants to give you at check in.

Personally, given current conditions I wouldn't spend anymore on a timeshare than I was willing to walk a way from.  We recently bought a Gold GV for peanuts and if I had to unload it for $1 five years from now I wouldn't shed a tear.


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## larryallen (Apr 14, 2011)

Davidr said:


> When you trade thru II there is no view associated with your trade.  You get whatever view the resort wants to give you at check in.
> 
> Personally, given current conditions I wouldn't spend anymore on a timeshare than I was willing to walk a way from.  We recently bought a Gold GV for peanuts and if I had to unload it for $1 five years from now I wouldn't shed a tear.



The fear is more if you have to PAY to get out of it. Likely? No. Possible? Yes.


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## OldPantry (Apr 14, 2011)

Davidr said:


> When you trade thru II there is no view associated with your trade.  You get whatever view the resort wants to give you at check in.
> 
> Personally, given current conditions I wouldn't spend anymore on a timeshare than I was willing to walk a way from.  We recently bought a Gold GV for peanuts and if I had to unload it for $1 five years from now I wouldn't shed a tear.



Well, now I'm not so sure about that.  I traded an ocean front Crystal Shores for Waiohai (yes, not really equal), and got a confirmation with the code TBOV.  I was told that meant ocean view, and that's exactly what I got when I checked in.  I also traded a Beach Towers ocean view for Newport Christmas, with the code TOVI.  I believe that's ocean view, and will see whether that's what I do get, in fact.


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## LordCambridge (Apr 14, 2011)

*This Thread Made Me Buy*

After reading this post, I came but with what I hope is a good idea.  We have a 3BR MGV that we can convert to DC point if we would like.  Haven't done it yet.  We like to go to Florida over spring break, but wanted to go to HHI and found that trades are harder to come by. 

So, we're going to convert the 3BR to points and start banking points.  Today, I bought a 2BR MGV Platinum on e-bay for a very good price.  Now we can still go to Florida for Spring Break and use the points to go other places. In addition, we can now reserve 13 months in advance.  Thanks to the OP for starting this thread and making me realize now might be a great time to buy.


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## tgropp (Apr 15, 2011)

*Just found this board on the advice as a DVC member. I have been an owner at Disney for many years and have just purchased a semi annual gold time frame 2 BR at Marriott Beachplace Towers in Fort Lauderdale for $910.00. Marriott has just dropped their ROFR and I am waiting on a clear title as I paid $225.00 for the extra title insurance. I feel that I got a good deal and I am loking forward to this board*


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## BarbS (Apr 15, 2011)

OldPantry said:


> Well, now I'm not so sure about that.  I traded an ocean front Crystal Shores for Waiohai (yes, not really equal), and got a confirmation with the code TBOV.  I was told that meant ocean view, and that's exactly what I got when I checked in.  I also traded a Beach Towers ocean view for Newport Christmas, with the code TOVI.  I believe that's ocean view, and will see whether that's what I do get, in fact.



It may not be true everywhere, but I can guarantee you it is true at certain places, like Barony Beach and Oceanwatch.   I have a trade into Barony in November which specifies garden view; however, I'm expecting NOT to get a garden view because we're multiple week owners trading back in.  I expect them to go by their published priority list and get either oceanside or oceanfront.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 15, 2011)

OldPantry said:


> Well, now I'm not so sure about that.  I traded an ocean front Crystal Shores for Waiohai (yes, not really equal), and got a confirmation with the code TBOV.  I was told that meant ocean view, and that's exactly what I got when I checked in.  I also traded a Beach Towers ocean view for Newport Christmas, with the code TOVI.  I believe that's ocean view, and will see whether that's what I do get, in fact.



NCV doesn't have any view designations. So you can be placed anywhere there.

I think the view placement is heavily Dependant on the resort policies. It seems many (most?) resorts place exchangers in to the view that was on the unit they exchanged in to. So what you see on Marriott.com is what you get. Other resorts, especially those in HHI, seem to move exchangers around and upgrade owners exchanging back in to their home resort. So for a gardenview owner at Barony or Grande Ocean, it may be better for them to pay the $109 fee every year to exchange. They then have the chance to get ocean side or ocean front. They certainly can't be downgraded and garden view is a far cheaper buy.


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## rrazzorr (Apr 15, 2011)

JimIg23 said:


> I dont think the Marriotts resale prices hit bottom yet (unless they are all $1), MFs  go up every year.  Trying to selling a $1 TS if you cannot afford the MFs is pretty difficult.



I am sort of fund of the above statement and find it to be very true, many people feel as the prices cannot get lower but they certainly can. 
Obviously I am not talking about the ones that already cannot be sold at $1, but those luxurious and exotic locations that are still able net sizable $ figures such as Aruba, St. Thomas, etc. 
Considering historical figures on MF growth it seems as we're still going to see a substantial increase for years to come. 
On the other hand I realize that companies like Marriott dissect and study the market in tedious details, and it is not in their best interest to make it no longer affordable to general TS audience. Hence they will keep the MF borderline acceptable but we'll have to take a dive somewhere else, quality and service will be (and already is) at jeopardy.
I see some sense of security in fixed holiday (plat+) weeks, simply because you can still get rid of it relatively easy if need arises but that may be just an illusion, and certainly will become questionable once we hit the all-times high gas prices.


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## larryallen (Apr 15, 2011)

rrazzorr said:


> I am sort of fund of the above statement and find it to be very true, many people feel as the prices cannot get lower but they certainly can.
> Obviously I am not talking about the ones that already cannot be sold at $1, but those luxurious and exotic locations that are still able net sizable $ figures such as Aruba, St. Thomas, etc.
> Considering historical figures on MF growth it seems as we're still going to see a substantial increase for years to come.
> On the other hand I realize that companies like Marriott dissect and study the market in tedious details, and it is not in their best interest to make it no longer affordable to general TS audience. Hence they will keep the MF borderline acceptable but we'll have to take a dive somewhere else, quality and service will be (and already is) at jeopardy.
> I see some sense of security in fixed holiday (plat+) weeks, simply because you can still get rid of it relatively easy if need arises but that may be just an illusion, and certainly will become questionable once we hit the all-times high gas prices.




I could be wrong but I think in some instances timeshares could end up like trying to get out of a leased car during the lease and you have to pay someone to take over the payments. Certainly this would not be the case for the vast majority of Marriotts but for lower end timeshares I could see this happening soon.  I really could see people having to pay someone to take over the on going costs.


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## OldPantry (Apr 15, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> NCV doesn't have any view designations. So you can be placed anywhere there.
> 
> I think the view placement is heavily Dependant on the resort policies. It seems many (most?) resorts place exchangers in to the view that was on the unit they exchanged in to.



Odd, I see all sorts of Redweek entries specifying ocean view. I'll have to wait and see what happens for my Newport exchange this Christmas.  I will push to get them to honor the ocean view, but won't let it ruin the week if they don't.  I've never valued views as much as many TUGers, as I always feel I can just go outside if I want to see the ocean.  Mind you, it's pleasant to see it from the unit, but I wouldn't pay much extra for that pleasure.  At Waiohai, ocean view, I don't think I even peeked out the window after the second day.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 15, 2011)

OldPantry said:


> Odd, I see all sorts of Redweek entries specifying ocean view. I'll have to wait and see what happens for my Newport exchange this Christmas.  I will push to get them to honor the ocean view, but won't let it ruin the week if they don't.  I've never valued views as much as many TUGers, as I always feel I can just go outside if I want to see the ocean.  Mind you, it's pleasant to see it from the unit, but I wouldn't pay much extra for that pleasure.  At Waiohai, ocean view, I don't think I even peeked out the window after the second day.



I don't think the OV in TOVI stands for Ocean View. It is my understanding that all units at NCV have the same unit code of TOVI. There is only one type of unit at NCV, 2BR dedicated units. So I am not sure there is anything you can push for them to honor. What does the view indicate when you look the reservation up on Marriott.com?


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## CalBoomer (Apr 17, 2011)

SueDonJ said:


> Like everyone else I'm baffled that Marriott rolled out the DC without formulating the implications for post-6/20/10 internal Weeks resales and future DC Points resales.  But the "protection" of those things IS written into the DC governing docs - in the stipulation for using approved brokers (which IMO will be those who charge Marriott prices) - if/when Marriott decides to implement it.  But owners of post-6/20/10 external resales don't have any hope at all of relying on doc language to change the current "not eligible for enrollment" classification.
> 
> I realize there are still far too many "ifs" even with this viewpoint, but that's what I meant by saying that I want whatever protection might be given even if it's minimal and/or not in place now.  These aren't easy times to be Marriott timeshare owners; we're all dependent upon the success of the new DC program and the spin-off company.  I hope the future of Marriott's timeshare business is as successful as the company must have projected, and I hope that with the success comes options that are less restrictive than what we're facing now.  If the docs contain language that allow an easing of restrictions in certain situations, those of us in such situations will be at least better off than if the docs didn't contain such language.
> 
> Aside from all that, I think that being "hurt" by losing the upfront money on a timeshare purchase is not always the worst "hurt" you can suffer - losing usage value over the life of the ownership could be much worse.  IMO, minimizing the devaluations you may encounter is a safer alternative than hoping against any devaluations.  Which brings us back around to this thread - if you purchase an external resale Week now it should be with the intent of using it annually in the manner guaranteed by the docs, and with no expectation of exchange or resale value which has never been guaranteed and is now more uncertain.



I just can't agree with the the argument that buying through Marriott is "safe." DC points will become the frequent flier miles of the future, gradually devaluated to encourage people to buy more points to protect the value of their initial purchase. 

A resale purchase at free market--not Marriott market--prices saves one enough to pay the average maintenance fee for about 15 or more years. The only proviso is to buy a place you primarily want to use annually as opposed to trade. As long as I am able, I want to ski one week per year in Park City (Summit Watch) and visit Boston in the fall or summer (Custom House). I have no interest in trading either for warm weather beach resorts. This may make me weird, but it certainly simplifies the financial analysis of the current timeshare marketplace.


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## gblotter (Apr 17, 2011)

JimIg23 said:


> I dont think the Marriotts resale prices hit bottom yet (unless they are all $1), MFs  go up every year.  Trying to selling a $1 TS if you cannot afford the MFs is pretty difficult.


We may not be far off.  I do not regularly monitor eBay for Marriott timeshare listings, however ...

I just checked eBay and I see 106 listings for a variety of Marriott timeshares.  28 of these listings have a price of just $1 with no reserve.  Many of these $1 listings have free closing costs and are sitting with zero bids - some have just hours to go before the listing expires/closes.

Anybody want Maui Ocean Club for $1.25?
see http://cgi.ebay.com/Marriott-Maui-O...Timeshares&hash=item2c5c15dfe3#ht_5220wt_1139


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## BarbS (Apr 17, 2011)

gblotter said:


> We may not be far off.  I do not regularly monitor eBay for Marriott timeshare listings, however ...
> 
> I just checked eBay and I see 106 listings for a variety of Marriott timeshares.  28 of these listings have a price of just $1 with no reserve.  Many of these $1 listings have free closing costs and are sitting with zero bids - some have just hours to go before the listing expires/closes.
> 
> ...



That Maui week has 5 days to go.  I will be surprised it anyone gets it for $1.25.


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## CalBoomer (Apr 17, 2011)

gblotter said:


> We may not be far off.  I do not regularly monitor eBay for Marriott timeshare listings, however ...
> 
> I just checked eBay and I see 106 listings for a variety of Marriott timeshares.  28 of these listings have a price of just $1 with no reserve.  Many of these $1 listings have free closing costs and are sitting with zero bids - some have just hours to go before the listing expires/closes.
> 
> ...



A 1 BR unit in the older part of the complex with a MF of $1600 is just not that desirable. And that is the common feature of most of the listings on eBay that don't sell or go for low prices. Only the most desirable resorts in peak season hold reasonable value--and even that is well below the original Marriott price.


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## davidn247 (Apr 18, 2011)

CalBoomer said:


> A 1 BR unit in the older part of the complex with a MF of $1600 is just not that desirable. And that is the common feature of most of the listings on eBay that don't sell or go for low prices. Only the most desirable resorts in peak season hold reasonable value--and even that is well below the original Marriott price.



Agree. $1600 for 1BR is a lot of money. Hawaii seems to be very expensive in MF and getting higher in property taxes (from what I read).

If you want to go to this resort, there are cheaper options. For instance, you can exchange a 2BR (lock-off of a good 3BR week) and still have the studio left for another week. Just did that with MGV 3BR Plat week (MF $1250).


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## OldPantry (Apr 18, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think the OV in TOVI stands for Ocean View. It is my understanding that all units at NCV have the same unit code of TOVI. There is only one type of unit at NCV, 2BR dedicated units. So I am not sure there is anything you can push for them to honor. What does the view indicate when you look the reservation up on Marriott.com?


Well, that would suck.  Hmm, and I used to be a happy man.  

I tried looking up the reservation at Marriott.com, but see no record of it.  I do have the confirmation on the II side, but aside from the code I mentioned before, there is no reference to a view.  I must say, I don't ever recall seeing an II exchange listed on the Marriott site; is there some special procedure or page I should be looking for?


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## tiel (Apr 18, 2011)

OldPantry - You need to call Marriott Rewards and provide them with the Marriott reservation number on your II exchange confirmation (usually starts with an "8"), as well as your Rewards number.  Then the reservation will show up in your Marriott account.  In addition, you will then automatically get "nights stayed" credit in your Rewards account after your stay.


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## OldPantry (Apr 18, 2011)

davidn247 said:


> Agree. $1600 for 1BR is a lot of money. Hawaii seems to be very expensive in MF and getting higher in property taxes (from what I read).
> 
> If you want to go to this resort, there are cheaper options. For instance, you can exchange a 2BR (lock-off of a good 3BR week) and still have the studio left for another week. Just did that with MGV 3BR Plat week (MF $1250).



I too have been surprised to see super low prices on 1BR units both in Maui and the Kauai Beach Club.  I think it's a pretty good indicator that MFs are getting out of hand in those locales.  At least in Kauai, you can still do a lockoff, which might help recoup those high MFs.  For Maui, you'd be really lucky to earn back the MF in a rental.  Add in any reasonable figure for time value of the investment (say 5% on a $5000 purchase), and you're looking at a cost of over $275/night for that 1BR.  I'm seeing lots of listings in Redweek below that magic $1666 figure.  

Ultimately, resales will have to bear a reasonable relationship to rentals because few buyers will be willing to pay the Marriott prestige premium any more.  

Yeah, it's nice to belong to the "club", but nobody wants to feel like a sucker.  If you can rent a week significantly cheaper than it costs to own, then MOST people would opt for that.  If it's cheaper to rent directly from Marriott than buy new points (and it is, it is), then basic decency would force you to advise the lambs to stay away from the wolf!


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## OldPantry (Apr 18, 2011)

tiel said:


> OldPantry - You need to call Marriott Rewards and provide them with the Marriott reservation number on your II exchange confirmation (usually starts with an "8"), as well as your Rewards number.  Then the reservation will show up in your Marriott account.  In addition, you will then automatically get "nights stayed" credit in your Rewards account after your stay.


Thanks.  I'll do that.  To think I never knew!


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## dioxide45 (Apr 18, 2011)

OldPantry said:


> Thanks.  I'll do that.  To think I never knew!



You really don't even need to call Marriott to have them add the number to look at the confirmation. Just go to Marriott.com and go to the Change/Cancel Reservation section, then on the left hand side enter the last name and Marriott confirmation number from the exchange certificate. This will be a 8-digit number that begins with an 8 or perhaps a 9. It is under the Accommodations section (where it should say 2 bedroom, 2 bath) on the II confirmation PFD. It is not the same as the exchange number.

Adding your number at checkin or by calling will ensure you get the night credit and any points for incidentals charged to the room. But if all you want to do is lookup what you got, checkin online is the fastest option.


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## OldPantry (Apr 18, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> You really don't even need to call Marriott to have them add the number to look at the confirmation. Just go to Marriott.com and go to the Change/Cancel Reservation section, then on the left hand side enter the last name and Marriott confirmation number from the exchange certificate. This will be a 8-digit number that begins with an 8 or perhaps a 9. It is under the Accommodations section (where it should say 2 bedroom, 2 bath) on the II confirmation PFD. It is not the same as the exchange number.
> 
> Adding your number at checkin or by calling will ensure you get the night credit and any points for incidentals charged to the room. But if all you want to do is lookup what you got, checkin online is the fastest option.


That was very helpful.  Inputting the information from II worked.  It didn't stick (ie. only my regular Marriott reservations still show), but now I know how to look up a II exchange in the Marriott system.  And, unfortunately, it makes no reference to a view.  Ah well, I guess I'll live.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 18, 2011)

OldPantry said:


> That was very helpful.  Inputting the information from II worked.  It didn't stick (ie. only my regular Marriott reservations still show), but now I know how to look up a II exchange in the Marriott system.  And, unfortunately, it makes no reference to a view.  Ah well, I guess I'll live.



The reason there is no reference to view is because only one view type exists at NCV. I think my Grande Vista units show something like "Excellent View". There is only one, and NCV is the same. You need to request a building that has a view of the ocean when you call with your villa request. Of course there is never a guaranty with those.


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## KarenP (Apr 19, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> You really don't even need to call Marriott to have them add the number to look at the confirmation. Just go to Marriott.com and go to the Change/Cancel Reservation section, then on the left hand side enter the last name and Marriott confirmation number from the exchange certificate. This will be a 8-digit number that begins with an 8 or perhaps a 9. It is under the Accommodations section (where it should say 2 bedroom, 2 bath) on the II confirmation PFD. It is not the same as the exchange number.QUOTE]
> 
> Does this work for Getaways, too?  Those numbers start with "0"s.
> 
> Thanks.


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## wvacations (Apr 19, 2011)

KarenP said:


> Does this work for Getaways, too?  Those numbers start with "0"s.
> 
> Thanks.



Ir does work with getaways but you need to use the Marriott Confirmation number not the II confirmation number. II confirmation numbers begin with "0". Marriott confirmation numbers start with "8" or "9".

On your Guest Certificate from II, the II confirmation number is on the lefthand side under your name. Look at the right hand side and you will see "Reservation Number" and this is the Marriott number you can look up on Marriott.com


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## KarenP (Apr 20, 2011)

wvacations said:


> Ir does work with getaways but you need to use the Marriott Confirmation number not the II confirmation number. II confirmation numbers begin with "0". Marriott confirmation numbers start with "8" or "9".
> 
> On your Guest Certificate from II, the II confirmation number is on the lefthand side under your name. Look at the right hand side and you will see "Reservation Number" and this is the Marriott number you can look up on Marriott.com



It worked like a charm!  Thank you so much!!  Score another win for TUG!


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