# Is a dog in training eligible to stay in a hotel/timeshare?



## skimble (Jun 28, 2016)

I saw a couple by the pool at a resort last week.  They had two dogs, one was a puppy.  Both dogs had the blue, "in training", vest for a service dog.  
I remarked at how cute the puppy was and I asked what the dog was in training for.  They said it's a companionship dog. (with a slight tone of defensiveness.) 
Are dogs that are in training allowed at resorts where animals are prohibited?


----------



## ronparise (Jun 28, 2016)

skimble said:


> I saw a couple by the pool at a resort last week.  They had two dogs, one was a puppy.  Both dogs had the blue, "in training", vest for a service dog.
> I remarked at how cute the puppy was and I asked what the dog was in training for.  They said it's a companionship dog. (with a slight tone of defensiveness.)
> Are dogs that are in training allowed at resorts where animals are prohibited?



In training or not a "companionship dog"  is not a service dog


----------



## VacationForever (Jun 28, 2016)

The issue is people have abused the "service dog" classification.   There was a recent article about how people can now claim that they need a companion dog (not a true service dog) for emotional well-being and according to the article people are getting away with it at hotels/resorts/public places that allow service dogs.  

I was at Depot Bay by Worldmark and there were ungodly number of dogs that did not look like service dogs - cute little dogs (knee biters I call them).  I enquired with the front desk and I was informed that these days all sorts of "services dogs" are allowed on property, because service dogs have expanded to include companion dogs for emotional support.  I went huh?


----------



## ronparise (Jun 28, 2016)

sptung said:


> The issue is people have abused the "service dog" classification.   There was a recent article about how people can now claim that they need a companion dog (not a true service dog) for emotional well-being and according to the article people are getting away with it at hotels/resorts/public places that allow service dogs.
> 
> I was at Depot Bay by Worldmark and there were ungodly number of dogs that did not look like service dogs - cute little dogs (knee biters I call them).  I enquired with the front desk and I was informed that these days all sorts of "services dogs" are allowed on property, because service dogs have expanded to include companion dogs for emotional support.  I went huh?



I think the person at the front dest meant to say, "we welcome service dogs as defined by the ADA but we can only ask two questions when someone arrives with a dog 1) is your dog a service dog? and 2)what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?>> We are not allowed to ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task".

To further complicate things for the staff there is a broader definition of “assistance animal” under the Fair Housing Act and  a broader definition of “service animal” under the Air Carrier Access Act. If the resort is considered "housing" and it probably is  if the recent worldmark rule change regarding adults only hours at the pools is any indication.  It is quite possible that the ADA rules dont apply and the FHA rules do. 


So it is quite possible that the dogs you see at the Worldmark resorts are not service animals and the owners are lying about it. Easy to do, Whats not so easy is catching them in that lie and tossing them off the property. Its easier and smarter to just give them their keys and offer them a plastic bag for the poop


----------



## Bwolf (Jun 28, 2016)

Ron is correct, it is a very touchy situation.  We are aware that people are printing "companion dog or emotional support dog" certificates from the internet.  They are presenting these certificates and gaining access to timeshares.  It may be wise for the Board of Directors of each timeshare to establish rules.  Perhaps a fee for the cleaning necessary, as the next guest may have an allergy.

I'm thinking of declaring one of my cats an "emotional support cat" and taking him along with me.


----------



## silentg (Jun 28, 2016)

Bwolf said:


> Ron is correct, it is a very touchy situation.  We are aware that people are printing "companion dog or emotional support dog" certificates from the internet.  They are presenting these certificates and gaining access to timeshares.  It may be wise for the Board of Directors of each timeshare to establish rules.  Perhaps a fee for the cleaning necessary, as the next guest may have an allergy.
> 
> I'm thinking of declaring one of my cats an "emotional support cat" and taking him along with me.



I booked a hotel stay for one night in NH,when I was looking at the room choices they had "pet friendly rooms" offered in a separate area of the hotel. I do not have a pet, but have family and friends who like to bring Fido along. They are charging $ 25 dollars  extra for the pet room. Have noticed timeshares that are pet friendly too. I don't mind as long as we are not put in a pet friendly room after one has been there. Just like I request non smoking room. Lots of places now are non smoking resorts. Which to me is more of an improvement, now if we can just say no smoking on balconies, porches etc..
My 2 cents!
Silentg


----------



## ronparise (Jun 28, 2016)

Bwolf said:


> Ron is correct, it is a very touchy situation.  We are aware that people are printing "companion dog or emotional support dog" certificates from the internet.  They are presenting these certificates and gaining access to timeshares.  It may be wise for the Board of Directors of each timeshare to establish rules.  Perhaps a fee for the cleaning necessary, as the next guest may have an allergy.
> 
> I'm thinking of declaring one of my cats an "emotional support cat" and taking him along with me.



I service cat will never pass as a service dog and according to th ADA only dogs qualify

And it's more difficult to get documentation for an "emotional support" dog than a "service" dog. You need a letter from a shrink for the emotional support dog. There is no requirement for a service dog.  By the way a service dog vest and ID  is an easy thing to buy online too


----------



## Bwolf (Jun 28, 2016)

I think Ron lost his sense of humor.  Has anyone found it?


----------



## skimble (Jun 28, 2016)

ronparise said:


> I think the person at the front dest meant to say, "we welcome service dogs as defined by the ADA but we can only ask two questions when someone arrives with a dog 1) is your dog a service dog? and 2)what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?>> We are not allowed to ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task".
> 
> To further complicate things for the staff there is a broader definition of “assistance animal” under the Fair Housing Act and  a broader definition of “service animal” under the Air Carrier Access Act. If the resort is considered "housing" and it probably is  if the recent worldmark rule change regarding adults only hours at the pools is any indication.  It is quite possible that the ADA rules dont apply and the FHA rules do.
> 
> ...



Wow!   This sucks!  
And yet at the same time, now I find myself wondering why I pay our pet-sitter $100 every time we go away for a week.  
How can I get our little poodle mix qualified as a "service dog"?


----------



## presley (Jun 28, 2016)

The bottom line is that the people who work at the resorts are not educated as to what a service animal is. They think an emotional support dog is the same thing as a service dog. It is not. While there are federal rules about allowing service animals everywhere, nobody ever has to allow a companion dog or an emotional support animal anywhere. As long as management chooses not to teach the front desk the very simple difference, anyone can order a vest and a certificate and bring their dog.


----------



## presley (Jun 28, 2016)

skimble said:


> How can I get our little poodle mix qualified as a "service dog"?



You cannot get your pet qualified as a service dog, but you can very easily get her qualified as an emotional support animal and it seems like more timeshares will allow that.


----------



## "Roger" (Jun 28, 2016)

I have a neighbor who very conscientiously raises service dogs (and they do put a lot of work into it because it is really important to them to raise a dog that will pass muster and help others). It burns them no end to know that other people are abusing the practice with false certificates, etc.

Recently we were on an airline flight and at the last minute someone came on board with a pit bull. No cape, the dog started wandering the aisles, the person's documentation was a piece of paper torn out of a notebook with something from a computer printed on it. Eventually the airline supervisor had to allow him to continue after forcing some people to change seats so that the dog could at least be somewhat confined. 

Could this have been legitimate? Maybe, but it really looked suspicious.

I don't know what can be done about the abuses when others are trying to do good. It is sad that some people are so self-centered.


----------



## presley (Jun 28, 2016)

"Roger" said:


> Recently we were on an airline flight and at the last minute someone came on board with a pit bull. No cape, the dog started wandering the aisles, the person's documentation was a piece of paper torn out of a notebook with something from a computer printed on it. Eventually the airline supervisor had to allow him to continue after forcing some people to change seats so that the dog could at least be somewhat confined.
> 
> Could this have been legitimate? Maybe, but it really looked suspicious.



Airlines are very different than other places. Airlines allow companion animals which can be any type of animal that you say brings you comfort enough to fly. It could be a pocket pet, a snake, a buffalo, anything... as long as you have a doctor's note (which you can get easily) that says you need the animal with you to fly.


----------



## pedro47 (Jun 28, 2016)

Bwolf said:


> Ron is correct, it is a very touchy situation.  We are aware that people are printing "companion dog or emotional support dog" certificates from the internet.  They are presenting these certificates and gaining access to timeshares.  It may be wise for the Board of Directors of each timeshare to establish rules.  Perhaps a fee for the cleaning necessary, as the next guest may have an allergy.
> 
> I'm thinking of declaring one of my cats an "emotional support cat" and taking him along with me.



I agree, I have allergies and both dogs and cats hairs trigger my allergies.


----------



## VacationForever (Jun 28, 2016)

"Roger" said:


> Recently we were on an airline flight and at the last minute someone came on board with a pit bull. No cape, the dog started wandering the aisles, the person's documentation was a piece of paper torn out of a notebook with something from a computer printed on it. Eventually the airline supervisor had to allow him to continue after forcing some people to change seats so that the dog could at least be somewhat confined.
> 
> Could this have been legitimate? Maybe, but it really looked suspicious.
> 
> I don't know what can be done about the abuses when others are trying to do good. It is sad that some people are so self-centered.



I would have left the plane as I am TERRIFIED of pit bills.  Then not sure what else I would do, other then write a nasty letter to the CEO & COO of the airline, seek psychological help and then sue the airline with the doctor's note.


----------



## ronparise (Jun 28, 2016)

Bwolf said:


> I think Ron lost his sense of humor.  Has anyone found it?



I understand the joke and i think its funny (sad funny) that so many folks get upset about this issue. I travel with my dog  and have no problem finding pet friendly accommodations. 

People lie, and they get away with it, Its not something that bothers me.


----------



## clifffaith (Jun 28, 2016)

In 2012 we had the tenant from hell living in our backyard in our guest house.  One Sunday afternoon during her last month with us she showed up with a lowlife legal aid person, a dog handler, and a pit bull and claimed the dog was a companion animal.  We called the police and while waiting for them  thought to call a friend of a friend who is a lawyer.  She told us to immediately go tell the tenant that she could have the dog.  We did that and the dog was gone in ten minutes, never to be seen again.  All a big charade to add to her bogus case against us (because I had also stolen her identity and Cliff had sexually assaulted her) while we were evicting her.


----------



## Bwolf (Jun 28, 2016)

ronparise said:


> I understand the joke and i think its funny (sad funny) that so many folks get upset about this issue. I travel with my dog  and have no problem finding pet friendly accommodations.
> 
> People lie, and they get away with it, Its not something that bothers me.



Fair enough, Ron.


----------



## Karen G (Jun 28, 2016)

sptung said:


> I would have left the plane as I am TERRIFIED of pit bills.  Then not sure what else I would do, other then write a nasty letter to the CEO & COO of the airline, seek psychological help and then sue the airline with the doctor's note.


On a cruise last year we were talking with a lady at dinner who related a recent flight she had. She had the window seat and the gal sitting in the middle seat had a fairly large dog with her on her lap! It was a "comfort dog" she said.  The lady in the window seat had brought her lunch and had a hard time eating her sandwich as the dog wanted it.

The flight attendant later told her that if she had complained, she would be the one who would be asked to leave. The dog would stay.

This is getting ridiculous!


----------



## Karenann (Jun 28, 2016)

*Companion dogs are everywhere....*

I love dogs, but would never think to take ours to a timeshare vacation.  After all, not everyone feels the same about pets. (True service animals are a different story.) Also, I would think the disturbance dogs can make would be a deterrent to any pet owner: all dogs have the potential to bark and bite. I would not want my dog to make other vacationers uncomfortable - nor would I want to be the recipient of criticism (silent or otherwise) while on vacation. I have two family members that have strong allergies to some pets, therefore, our pet was selected with these allergies in mind.  If they had to stay in a timeshare where a pet that caused their allergies to react, it would be a difficult situation for us. I don't understand how a resort could overlook this possibly when allowing pets to stay. What about the resort's liability if a dog bites someone? Be that as it may, I saw a women with her pet poodle in her grocery cart the other day (in the store).....and two dogs were on my last flight (one quite large, one lap sized) with the same family.


----------



## VacationForever (Jun 28, 2016)

Karen G said:


> On a cruise last year we were talking with a lady at dinner who related a recent flight she had. She had the window seat and the gal sitting in the middle seat had a fairly large dog with her on her lap! It was a "comfort dog" she said.  The lady in the window seat had brought her lunch and had a hard time eating her sandwich as the dog wanted it.
> 
> The flight attendant later told her that if she had complained, she would be the one who would be asked to leave. The dog would stay.
> 
> This is getting ridiculous!



Yep, that was in the article that I read.  It is called reverse discrimination on normal people.  We all need to get our own disability in order not to be discriminated against.  I think I should go to my doctor to certify my disability as having an extreme fear of dogs and unreasonable people. Then in this case I would not be thrown out of the plane if I had complained against the dog sitting next to me.


----------



## PStreet1 (Jun 28, 2016)

"Roger" said:


> I don't know what can be done about the abuses when others are trying to do good. It is sad that some people are so self-centered.



That's the story of our society:  "it's all about me."  Unfortunately, that's true about taking a pet anywhere it suits them because "people who don't like pets are obviously weird."  It's true about people who put their feet on top of seats in the movie theater; it's true about all those of us who decide "the rules don't really apply to me."  Why?  "Because I don't want them to."


----------



## BJRSanDiego (Jun 29, 2016)

I find it strange that in a society where new laws are being enacted in mass, that none of the legislators choose to tackle the issue.  If someone sneaks in a non-service animal and lies about it, I think that the legitimate owners are losing something.   Maybe the legislators are ignorant of the issue.

A few years ago I was at a Marriott and a yong puppy was out of control and was biting people.  I asked the owner if the dog was a service dog.  They said that he was.  I asked them what two physical tasks he could perform and I was told that he would like the owner on the cheek to provide emotional support (wrong answer).  Luckily someone at Marriott figured out that a 4 month old puppy probably didn't go through nearly a year of training to become a legitimate service dog.


----------



## ronparise (Jun 29, 2016)

Karen G said:


> On a cruise last year we were talking with a lady at dinner who related a recent flight she had. She had the window seat and the gal sitting in the middle seat had a fairly large dog with her on her lap! It was a "comfort dog" she said.  The lady in the window seat had brought her lunch and had a hard time eating her sandwich as the dog wanted it.
> 
> The flight attendant later told her that if she had complained, she would be the one who would be asked to leave. The dog would stay.
> 
> This is getting ridiculous!



Ridiculous indeed. I would hate to have to sit next to someone eating a sandwich They have restaurants and sandwich shops in the airport for a reason


----------



## ronparise (Jun 29, 2016)

BJRSanDiego said:


> I find it strange that in a society where new laws are being enacted in mass, that none of the legislators choose to tackle the issue.  If someone sneaks in a non-service animal and lies about it, I think that the legitimate owners are losing something.   Maybe the legislators are ignorant of the issue.
> 
> A few years ago I was at a Marriott and a yong puppy was out of control and was biting people.  I asked the owner if the dog was a service dog.  They said that he was.  I asked them what two physical tasks he could perform and I was told that he would like the owner on the cheek to provide emotional support (wrong answer).  Luckily someone at Marriott figured out that a 4 month old puppy probably didn't go through nearly a year of training to become a legitimate service dog.



Why do they have to be trained to do two tasks. One should be enough. 

You ran into a bad lied. The need to be taught to always use the word "service".  when challenged. The lie I would tell is that my dog is trained to warn me when she senses an impending anxiety attack due to my PTSD


----------



## NHTraveler (Jun 29, 2016)

ronparise said:


> The lie I would tell is that my dog is trained to warn me when she senses an impending anxiety attack due to my PTSD



OMG :hysterical:  That would shut them up.  While at Ocean Blvd I asked about the dogs as there were a few there.  What you said earlier about the staff having their hands tied is what I was told.


----------



## skimble (Jun 29, 2016)

BJRSanDiego said:


> I find it strange that in a society where new laws are being enacted in mass, that none of the legislators choose to tackle the issue.  If someone sneaks in a non-service animal and lies about it, I think that the legitimate owners are losing something.   Maybe the legislators are ignorant of the issue.



The same legislators who struggle with gender specific restrooms?


----------



## ronparise (Jun 29, 2016)

NHTraveler said:


> OMG :hysterical:  That would shut them up.  While at Ocean Blvd I asked about the dogs as there were a few there.  What you said earlier about the staff having their hands tied is what I was told.



yep,,, apparently PTSD is a real thing and so is mental illness and the ADA recognizes that..

This is taken from  the ADA website

Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, *reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications*, *calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack*, or performing 
other duties. 


That mental illness thing is what Im hanging my hat on  god knows Im freeking nuts


----------



## taterhed (Jun 29, 2016)

pheewt!

This topic has been beaten, stoned and thrown off a cliff in several threads. Certainly it has legs and gets people's dander up!

Legitimate SERVICE animals are rightfully permitted to accompany their owners to places of public occupancy/entertainment/housing/shopping /transportation etc... as it should be. Service animals allow persons with a need to live fuller and more productive lives. It's a small price to pay. Unfortunately (IMHO) many other categories of 'support' animals (and therapy et al) can ride on transportation as mentioned above (ACA) and that creates the illusion that anybody can bring any pet anywhere with a few strokes of the Internet Pen. 

Honestly, it's the cheaters and selfish types that make it a 'sad joke' for the rest of us. Service animals--despite being regulated in a very laissez-faire manner--have strict expectations of their behavior, conduct and care in contact with the public. The 'lap-dog' emotional support animals eating peoples food and snapping at passers-by is just another version of the poorly-disciplined children running up and down the isle, kicking seats and lacking control. Again, IMHO. I do expect resort management to make professional attempts to train and monitor the employees to assist in vetting (at least a little) the prospective service animals at timeshares. But, I don't fault the staff for being reluctant to make very tough and potentially litigious decisions about rejecting guests with 'iffy' 4-footed companions. They are guest services--not law clerks.

So....I strongly advocate providing public support, assistance and shaming when appropriate to assist in policing the abuse of the resorts that WE OWN. You know, the teen at the desk might not refute the guest's right to bring an emotional support cat (really Bwolf? ) but I can advise everyone in earshot that ESA's (emotional support animals) are not protected under ADA; should I go get my Rottweiler for some emotional and physical support as well? 

Meh... if we're going to complain and gripe about it, we should stand up for the rights and respect of those who need service animals and the rights of those who don't wish to be exposed to peoples' pets or suffer damage from the abuse. Eg: In Hawaii, when I saw smokers illegally smoking, I confirmed the rules with staff and reported them--and made sure they knew they were being called out (I was polite mind you).

You wouldn't want me (illegally) hanging out naked on the balcony (sic) just cause I felt like it would you?  It's all about respect says I.

I'll put the soap box back now. I apologize for the tirade.


----------



## taterhed (Jun 29, 2016)

ronparise said:


> yep,,, apparently PTSD is a real thing and so is mental illness and the ADA recognizes that..
> 
> This is taken from the ADA website
> 
> ...



 Funny enough, have you seen the video of the Vet with a PTSD dog being interviewed?  If you haven't, you might.  It's a good example. Sounds weird to you and I (maybe) but not to someone who might become violent and hurt themselves or those around them.  Estimates show 22 Vets commit suicide every day.  If a properly-trained service pooch can save a Vet's life, who am I to complain?

 Again, sorry....I'm off the box.


----------



## VacationForever (Jun 29, 2016)

taterhed said:


> ).
> 
> You wouldn't want me (illegally) hanging out naked on the balcony (sic) just cause I felt like it would you?  It's all about respect says I.



It is ok if you justify by saying you are/have _________ (fill in the blanks) and have a service dog as proof of that.


----------



## taterhed (Jun 29, 2016)

Well, it better be a pretty big hairy well covering dog or I'm going to be pretty embarrassed 

sent from my cell phone...


----------



## Tia (Jun 29, 2016)

Is there no requirement service  dogs remain on a leash in public?  Saw a supposed service terrier running  loose in Target last week.


----------



## ronparise (Jun 29, 2016)

Tia said:


> Is there no requirement service  dogs remain on a leash in public?  Saw a supposed service terrier running  loose in Target last week.



Of course that's wrong. No one is justifying fake service dogs. 

i gotta say  seeing the lier exposed like that is something to laugh rather than to be upset about


----------



## BocaBoy (Jul 5, 2016)

presley said:


> While there are federal rules about allowing service animals everywhere, *nobody ever has to allow a companion dog or an emotional support animal anywhere.*



Unfortunately, that is not true.  I know that apartments and condominiums, for example, cannot prevent a tenant or an owner from keeping an emotional support animal if the individual has a doctor's prescription for it.  Unfortunately, such prescriptions are apparently quite easy to obtain.  I am not sure what, if any, places can ban them, but there are more legal protections for these animals than you might think.


----------



## Laurie (Jul 6, 2016)

skimble said:


> The same legislators who struggle with gender specific restrooms?


Yes - just what I was thinking before I got to your post!

I understand that it can be a medical necessity for some to bring their service dogs - or companion dogs - I would love to travel everywhere with mine - BUT why do their needs and rights override those with life-threatening allergies? Why aren't both issues considered equally important, and why aren't accommodations made for both sets of people? (rhetorical but that's the question for the legislators).

IMO the only way to change this is to have legislation that addresses the issue of equal rights for those with pet allergies - and that's a huge group of people, at least as large as those with needs for companion and service animals.

(and btw I would travel everywhere with my dog if I could, but I'm allergic to cats.)


----------



## rapmarks (Jul 6, 2016)

we live in a large subdivision with a lot of seasonal rentals   The condos and villas prohibit renting to anyone with a pet.  I don't know if it has ever been challenged for a service dog or comfort pet.  they are also considering limiting the number or size of the pet for owners.  some people have 4 large animals, and keep them on their lanai.    This disturbs those in neighboring condos.

I should add that it appears there as many pets as people living in our subdivision.


----------



## ronparise (Jul 6, 2016)

BocaBoy said:


> Unfortunately, that is not true.  I know that apartments and condominiums, for example, cannot prevent a tenant or an owner from keeping an emotional support animal if the individual has a doctor's prescription for it.  Unfortunately, such prescriptions are apparently quite easy to obtain.  I am not sure what, if any, places can ban them, but there are more legal protections for these animals than you might think.



Yes there are different rules for housing (FHA) and emotional support animals have to be accommodated. when it comes to housing, and as we already know an emotional support animal is not a service dog

So the question is:  Are timeshares housing? and subject to the FHA rules, or are they businesses and regulated by ADA?

Given the recent rule change at Worldmark resorts, regarding swimming pools, to comply with the FHA anti discrimination rules, I think timeshares are "housing" and therefor the FHA rules that allow emotional support dogs ought to prevail. but to my knowledge that hasn't been tested.


----------



## VegasBella (Jul 6, 2016)

ronparise said:


> So the question is:  Are timeshares housing? and subject to the FHA rules, or are they businesses and regulated by ADA?


I think they're both. They're short term housing for owners and they're a business like hotels for renters. Either way, I think it would be wise for them to comply to both sets of standards.


----------



## ronparise (Jul 6, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> I think they're both. They're short term housing for owners and they're a business like hotels for renters. Either way, I think it would be wise for them to comply to both sets of standards.




So does that mean allowing emotional support dogs


----------

