# 29 minute Maui Ocean Club Sales Tour – Fantastic!



## PerryM (Feb 18, 2008)

This week, President's week, we are staying at the Marriott Maui Ocean Club.  This morning my wife won a massage worth $50 at the owners meeting and we signed up for our sales tour at 1:30 PM.

This was the best timeshare sales tour I’ve ever been on.  We checked in, got our cookies and soda, and started our tour exactly at 1:30 PM today.  The tour ended at 1:59 PM and I felt that this was the best sales tour, out of 50 of them, that I’ve ever been on.  This is what I learned in 29 minutes:

1) 1 in 3 sales tours ends in a sale at this Marriott, the national average is 1 in 7

2) The top sales rep here sold $9 M in 2007, the lowest sold $ 3 M

3) Almost every salesrep here owns a Bronze Summit Watch

4) They can sell just about every other Marriott resort here and like to sell the Grande Chateau next to Maui – put together combo packages for 13 month exchanges

5) The Maui site out sells every other Marriott and sold $130 M in Jan 2008.  50 reps work here

6) The most expensive unit sold here was $165,000 3BR week 52 at one of the new towers – the owner got it because he bought from Thanksgiving thru New Year’s week here ($900k in sales with NO discounts)

7) Saw the 3BR demo unit – we are staying at a 2BR Maui Ocean Club now – the difference is unbelievable

Prices:

*Maui Ocean Club:*
1BR Ocean Front sells for $38,700 resale goes for 75% of that (didn’t bother asking about MRPs)  MF is $1,400
1BR Ocean View sells $35,500, resale goes for 65% of that
1BR Mountain View $28,900
1BR Island View $24,200

2BR lock-off OF sells for $62,500, resale is 77% of that, MF is $1,500
2BR lock-off OV sells for $56,300, resale is 67% of that
2BR lock-off MV sells for $46,000

*Lahaina and Napili Villas:*
2BR OF $72,500, resale is 90% of that, MF is $2,000
2BR OV sold out, no prices
2BR Island View $44,900


_Conclusion:_
There was absolutely NO sales pressure at all.  We didn’t feel rushed and our sales rep had exchanged his 1BR Bronze Summit Watch for a 1BR Aruba for a May vacation from Maui and was very knowledgeable with II exchanges.

I was very impressed with the courteousness and how knowledgeable the sales rep was.  He was willing to sell other Marriotts that could exchange into Maui instead of selling Maui.  He said his goal was to make sure we were happy Marriott owners and that’s exactly what he did.

We did not buy, of course, but he was ready to discuss strategies for exchanging and MRP usage.  If I were to grade our salesrep I’d give him an A+.  He did not waste one minute trying to steer us in any direction we did not want to go.  We got our 15,000 MRPs and the way we use them that's worth $300 to us.

I wish the other 49 sales tours over the years were as nice.

Tonight we go to the owners meeting, guzzle down Mai Tais, eat a pile of Poo Poos, and hope to extend our winnings at the Maui Ocean Club.  Fantastic vacation in the first 24 hours.


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## sdtugger (Feb 18, 2008)

Thanks Perry.  We had a similar sales presentation last November at MOC.  Ours lasted 40 minutes because I asked questions.  But, I will say that our salesman's approach was odd.  He never asked us a single question.  He didn't try to sell us anything, etc.  We were there for 40 minutes because I had a few questions.  It's the only tour I've ever been on where I felt like I had to keep the conversation going.  And, our guy had been there for 3 years so it wasn't newness.

How does the construction look?  If you have chance to snap a picture or two they would be much appreciated!  We are headed back in April.  Thanks.


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## PerryM (Feb 18, 2008)

sdtugger said:


> Thanks Perry.  We had a similar sales presentation last November at MOC.  Ours lasted 40 minutes because I asked questions.  But, I will say that our salesman's approach was odd.  He never asked us a single question.  He didn't try to sell us anything, etc.  We were there for 40 minutes because I had a few questions.  It's the only tour I've ever been on where I felt like I had to keep the conversation going.  And, our guy had been there for 3 years so it wasn't newness.
> 
> How does the construction look?  If you have chance to snap a picture or two they would be much appreciated!  We are headed back in April.  Thanks.



I have my digital camera but didn't bring the docking station so I can't show you a picture of the second tower's progress.  The pile driving is over and they are on the 5th floor.

Our unit is just a brick's throw away from the construction.  Tomorrow we will be treated to the workmen doing their thing starting at 5AM I'm told.


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## pwrshift (Feb 18, 2008)

Hi Perry ... sounds like you're having a great time.

Here's a MOC sale on Ebay you might find interesting compared to the 'developer' price:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220200667047&ssPageName=ADME:B:DBS:US:1123

Brian

PS...the guys on the DC forum are missing your words of wisdom.


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## PerryM (Feb 18, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> Hi Perry ... sounds like you're having a great time.
> 
> Here's a MOC sale on Ebay you might find interesting compared to the 'developer' price:
> 
> ...



I'm sure Marriott steps in on ANY MOC sale below 60% of current selling prices.  It's nice to see Marriott owners falling on the sword to give Marriott a nice fat profit.

Any 1BR OV sale below $21,300 is just going to be recycled into the hands of the Marriott salesreps here who will sell it for $35,500.

P.S.
Just think about it, the Marriott owner gave up getting $21,300 and got $13,100 or $8,200 less because the guy had NO idea what his unit was worth.  He needs to spend some time here and maybe next time he won't give that money to Marriott.


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## taffy19 (Feb 18, 2008)

PerryM said:


> Any 1BR OV sale below $21,300 is just going to be recycled into the hands of the Marriott salesreps here who will sell it for $35,500.


Perry, can you blame them? This is capitalism and most people are not as smart as the TUGgers are here or they wouldn't get away with it. 

It is amazing how many cheap travel packages are offered to the Islands and to Europe too. I receive them every day and you do too.    The travel industry must be really hurting.


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 18, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> PS...the guys on the DC forum are missing your words of wisdom.




I actually enjoy Perry's posts.

Did you see the new Dubai timeshare on the Palm Island?...there was a bunch of II sightings over the weekend and I was tempted to grab one.

We will be in Maui in June and I plan on touring Marriott. Perhaps you can PM me the sales rep name.


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## GaryDouglas (Feb 18, 2008)

Hi Perry, thanks for the update on my home away from home. I am curious, how did you come by the resale percentages?

The prices you have for the Lahaina/Napil Towers are for floating. I haven't seen any threads on the fixed weeks and how will people set resale values where different weeks of the year have different prices when they were originally sold by Marriott. I wonder how people will set resales, other than trying to mimic a percentage of Marriotts original price list for that week of the year. I am curious to see how this plays out...

Also waiting for pictures...



PerryM said:


> Prices:
> 
> *Maui Ocean Club:*
> 1BR Ocean Front sells for $38,700 resale goes for 75% of that (didn’t bother asking about MRPs) MF is $1,400
> ...


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## PerryM (Feb 18, 2008)

iconnections said:


> Perry, can you blame them? This is capitalism and most people are not as smart as the TUGgers are here or they wouldn't get away with it.
> 
> It is amazing how many cheap travel packages are offered to the Islands and to Europe too. I receive them every day and you do too.    The travel industry must be really hurting.



I certainly don't fault Marriott - the ROFR is a fantastic tool for everyone concerned, even the winner of the auction.  Next time someone needs to figure out what the Marriott is worth or Marriott gets the profit.

But for now Marriott stock holders might give a thumbs up to the owner - every little bit helps.


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## PerryM (Feb 18, 2008)

GaryDouglas said:


> Hi Perry, thanks for the update on my home away from home. I am curious, *how did you come by the resale percentages*?
> 
> The prices you have for the Lahaina/Napil Towers are for floating. I haven't seen any threads on the fixed weeks and how will people set resale values where different weeks of the year have different prices when they were originally sold by Marriott. I wonder how people will set resales, other than trying to mimic a percentage of Marriotts original price list for that week of the year. I am curious to see how this plays out...
> 
> Also waiting for pictures...



I did a survey of RedWeek and MyResortNetwork and came up with an average resale price and compared that to the current selling price.  Any resale Marriott selling less than 60% of the current sales price is a candidate for the ROFR - if Marriott wants to recycle the week for a couple of bucks profit.

I didn't bring the docking port for my Casio so I can't upload pictures to my PC - sorry.  When we are back home, in 2 weeks, I'll upload the pictures then.  Tomorrow I'll try to take a picture with my cell phone and eMail it to myself and upload it.  Can't do it right now - too many Mai Tais from the owners meeting tonight.  The poo poos were just cauliflower and broccoli this year - poo poo that.

P.S.
The 3BR units in the towers are ALL fixed weeks in a fixed condo - good luck trying to figure out what those puppies are worth when it comes time to sell them.


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## nygiants11991 (Feb 19, 2008)

sdtugger said:


> Thanks Perry.  We had a similar sales presentation last November at MOC.  Ours lasted 40 minutes because I asked questions.  But, I will say that our salesman's approach was odd.  He never asked us a single question.  He didn't try to sell us anything, etc.  We were there for 40 minutes because I had a few questions.  It's the only tour I've ever been on where I felt like I had to keep the conversation going.  And, our guy had been there for 3 years so it wasn't newness.
> 
> How does the construction look?  If you have chance to snap a picture or two they would be much appreciated!  We are headed back in April.  Thanks.



I have some pictures from the beginning of the month, if you tell me how to attach them i will show you where they were at the beginning of the month.  We to were a bricks throw away.


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## thinze3 (Feb 19, 2008)

Perry, good to hear from you!

Here's something for you to try. See if you can walk out of the owners meeting with a Mai Tai in hand. Better yet, take two. I'll bet you a dollar that they stop you in your tracks. 

Enjoy your stay.


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## taffy19 (Feb 19, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> Perry, good to hear from you!
> 
> Here's something for you to try. See if you can walk out of the owners meeting with a Mai Tai in hand. Better yet, take two. I'll bet you a dollar that they stop you in your tracks.
> 
> Enjoy your stay.


Yes, enjoy your stay! How is the weather?

Perry, the fixed units are only fixed if you want to stay in the same unit every year but you can exchange them for any other time of the year or to anywhere else just like with floating units so why would it make much difference in the sales price? Can you explain?

We were recently in Maui and I went to see the completed Lahaina tower by myself. I took some pictures too but mainly of the view. I saw both models and they look very nice but the 3 br condo is awesome because it is very light and airy and you also overlook the new pool area of the resort but it is far enough away from the other building. Here are a few pictures. I also have a picture of the balcony with the salesman who showed it to me. I will ask his permission to post it here. The balconies are small in comparison to the older units.

I didn't take a tour or update but asked the sales office if I could see the completed condo and they showed it to me.  We hope to be there on March 22 for our fixed week and I can hardly wait.


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## PerryM (Feb 19, 2008)

iconnections said:


> Yes, enjoy your stay! How is the weather?
> 
> Perry, the fixed units are *only fixed if you want to stay in the same unit every year but you can exchange them for any other time of the year or to anywhere else just like with floating units so why would it make much difference in the sales price?* Can you explain?
> 
> ...



I really didn't get into details with the 3BR - I did not get the impression that you could turn in your 3BR week for something else.  I can't imagine anyone turning in a 3BR into II for exchange.

The great thing with Marriott is resales - 60% of the current selling price is your resale price.  If later your week is not for sale by Marriott just what is it worth?  I can't guess the answer.

Fixed weeks are great for the few lucky holiday owners - the rest are lumped into one "non holiday" week that is worth much less than the holiday weeks.  Sure the week you got might be an anniversary week to you but not to anyone else.

P.S.
The weather is fantastic - but they say it has rained almost every day from last autumn until last week!


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## Lawlar (Feb 19, 2008)

*Moc Prices*

Thanks for the info Perry.  Very helpful. (I was there two weeks ago but we stayed away from the salespeople – and yes it was rainy, but beautiful).

A few questions, if you know or discover this info:

When I was there I kept hearing new owners talking about $2000 maintenance fees for the Napili Villas.  Last year it was $1,700 for a 2 bedroom in the Lahaina Villas.  Does this mean the mf are increasing to $2,000 in the new buildings, or is that just for the Napili Villias? If it is an anticipated increase for the Lahaina Villas, then that is a steep one year increase (after a previous steep yearly increase).

Are the Lahaina Villas sold out yet?  What percentage of the Napili Villas are sold?  I heard it was 25% sold.

Which raises another issue:  What percentage of the MOC old building is sold?  One would think it would have sold out long ago.  Are they simply selling units that they take off the resale market?

One disagreement:  If you know anyone who would buy a Lahaina Villas unit resale at 90% of retail, then please give them my email address.  I WOULD SELL IN AN INSTANT AT THAT PRICE (but my wife and grandkid would hate me).  Those listings on Redweek for Lahaina Villas have not resulted in any sales of those units, and each listing comes in at a lower price than the one listed before it.  One TUGGER guessed recently (in another thread) that they might sell for $40,000 (the ones that sold for $70,000).


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## andypoole (Feb 19, 2008)

"We got our 15,000 MRPs and the way we use them that's worth $300 to us."

And what way is that Perry?


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## PerryM (Feb 19, 2008)

Lawlar said:


> Thanks for the info Perry.  Very helpful. (I was there two weeks ago but we stayed away from the salespeople – and yes it was rainy, but beautiful).
> 
> A few questions, if you know or discover this info:
> 
> ...




The sales sheet our rep gave me has only 2BR OF ($72,500) units available in the Lahaina tower and OF ($72,500) and Island View ($44,900) available in 2BR at the Napili tower.  I really don't know anything beyond that.  I didn't get into how many units were still up for sale.

In the older part of MOC all sales from Marriott are recycled resales.  Marriott only talks about owners there who upgraded to the new towers and not ROFR purchases.

I didn't see any older salesreps there and suspect that just scraps are left of the entire project now and that the guys making $300+k have moved to Kauai and the Marriotts there.  That's what our salesrep was going to do shortly. 

The 90% resale value for a tower Marriott is what someone is asking for - I'd bet they could get it if there is no inventory left to sell and Marriott is not into ROFR for tower units yet.




andypoole said:


> "We got our 15,000 MRPs and the way we use them that's worth $300 to us."
> 
> And what way is that Perry?



We use the biggest MRP packages with airfare for 2 to a Marriott hotel in far away locations.  We might start to use MRPs to Maui from now on since our son is 21 years old and in college.

Turning in your MRPs for just airline tickets is not as efficient - I remember the "good old days" where we got a 200k package to Maui and sold the hotel part on eBay and that paid for our son's ticket and about $1,000 in cash to spend on Maui - I miss those days.

P.S.
I still don't understand why Marriott sold the two towers as timeshares - if they had sold them as condo-hotels they would have sold out in the first 15 minutes and received 50% of the rental income for the next 50+ years and the management fees too.

The 3BR display unit we saw was easily worth $5M and would have sold instantly to hoards of California folks who would have lined up for 24 hours in advance to get a chance at a lottery ticket to buy it.

If the towers were sold as condo-hotels they would have been mainly studios, 1BRs and a few 2BR OF units.


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## kamumma1 (Feb 19, 2008)

PerryM said:


> Prices:
> 
> *Maui Ocean Club:*
> 
> ...



Please pardon my ignorance, but why would anyone by a 2BR for $46-62K when you can buy a much cheaper unit elsewhere and trade into the more expensive?


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## PerryM (Feb 19, 2008)

kamumma1 said:


> Please pardon my ignorance, but why would anyone by a 2BR for $46-62K when you can buy a much cheaper unit elsewhere and trade into the more expensive?



This week we are staying in a $56,300 Maui week via a Marriott Gold Summit Watch that I bought for $5,500 resale - but that doesn't occur to 90% of timeshare owners.

Our salesrep made it perfectly clear that a $1,500 Bronze Summit Watch will get you just about anywhere in the Marriott system via the 24 day II Marriott only exchange window.  If no other Marriott owner want's that Maui week in II, Marriott has instructed II to give it to ANY Marriott owner who want's it before releasing it to the general II population.

That's exactly what we did this vacation and our 2BR MountainSide for this last Christmas week - that week costs $65k.

Once someone learns this secret then buying a $56k Marriott makes little sense (Cents?).

P.S.
I did get a kick out of our salesrep who bought a $1,500 Bronze Summit Watch from Marriott and can now claim to be a Marriott owner and did not have to buy resale to afford it.  Very clever of these reps here.  I got the impression that they must read TUG!


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## PerryM (Feb 19, 2008)

*Napili Tower picture*

Took this crummy picture with my cell phone and sent it to myself and uploaded it here.  Picture taken at 7:59 AM on 2/19/08 just before the workers started pounding away...


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 19, 2008)

PerryM said:


> I didn't bring the docking port for my Casio so I can't upload pictures to my PC - sorry.



If you have a laptop, then you can buy a digital card reader from Costco, Walmart, etc for about $20 as a backup.




PerryM said:


> *Maui Ocean Club:*
> 2BR lock-off OF sells for $62,500, resale is 77% of that, MF is $1,500
> 
> *Lahaina and Napili Villas:*
> 2BR OF $72,500, resale is 90% of that, MF is $2,000



The cost per night of $60k purchase = $3,000 (5% lost opportunity) + $2000 (annual dues) = $5,000 per week = $714 per night

How much is the rack rate and/or VRBO rental for these?


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 19, 2008)

PerryM said:


> I did get a kick out of our salesrep who bought a $1,500 Bronze Summit Watch from Marriott and can now claim to be a Marriott owner and did not have to buy resale to afford it.  Very clever of these reps here.  I got the impression that they must read TUG!



Did they buy these because they really use them or just to claim that they "too" are Marriott owners?


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## PerryM (Feb 19, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> If you have a laptop, then you can buy a digital card reader from Costco, Walmart, etc for about $20 as a backup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have a micro SD reader that I upload movies to my cell phone - can get 5 2 hr movies on my 2 GB micro SD card.  I should get one for my Casio's SD card reader too - thanks for the prod.

I agree that folks spending $60k for a week on Maui is hard to understand but when we attended last night's owner's get together about 90% of the name tags were Maui owners - they come year after year and are extremely happy with their ownership.

ALL of them, however, are very unhappy with Marriott reservations - they have bought the atomic clocks and call exactly at 8 AM CST to make their reservation or click their mouse.  Many were snookered with leap year this year and were calling in a day late and settled for their 3rd choice.  Even so they got President's week but really wanted Christmas week or 4th of July week.



Steamboat Bill said:


> Did they buy these because they really use them or just to claim that they "too" are Marriott owners?



I think the salesreps here did both - can claim to be a Marriott owner who bought direct from Marriott and once they pay the $1k MF to Summit Watch lock it off and take 2 great vacations far far away from Maui.


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## thinze3 (Feb 19, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Did they buy these because they really use them or just to claim that they "too" are Marriott owners?



With $800++/yr in MF's - Most likely they use them.
Probably during flexchange like Perry did.


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## sdtugger (Feb 19, 2008)

Thanks for the picture Perry.  It is plenty clear to see what is happening.  I'm a little surprised that they aren't further along.  When we were there in November, they had at least 3 or 4 floors on part of the building.  And, they seemed to put in a new floor during the week we were there.  Your photo looks like they are only at about 4 floors.  Oh well.

Sorry if I missed it earlier, but did you say how you made this trade?  1 bedroom or 2 bedroom?  During flexchange? etc.  Just curious.  Did you trade part or all of your SW unit?

Thanks.


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## PerryM (Feb 19, 2008)

sdtugger said:


> Thanks for the picture Perry.  It is plenty clear to see what is happening.  I'm a little surprised that they aren't further along.  When we were there in November, they had at least 3 or 4 floors on part of the building.  And, they seemed to put in a new floor during the week we were there.  Your photo looks like they are only at about 4 floors.  Oh well.
> 
> Sorry if I missed it earlier, but did you say how you made this trade?  1 bedroom or 2 bedroom?  During flexchange? etc.  Just curious.  Did you trade part or all of your SW unit?
> 
> Thanks.



I did an II exchange for the studio side, made 8 months ago and a RedWeek exchange for the 1BR side made 4 months ago.


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## MOXJO7282 (Feb 19, 2008)

kamumma1 said:


> Please pardon my ignorance, but why would anyone by a 2BR for $46-62K when you can buy a much cheaper unit elsewhere and trade into the more expensive?



This is a good question. This is especially true with 1BDRM units. If you need a 2 BDRM for holiday or prime weeks every year, and can't take a chance with playing the waiting game, which may compromise airline costs, you will probably still need to own.

With 2BDRMs you could still make an argument to buy resale, because its still a big challenge to trade into a 2BDRM, especially to Maui during prime weeks, which I doubt a SW bronze would accomplish that. 

Even with Perry's success, and I didn't note if he was able to pull the two sides together, it is still much easier said than done. He got the studio from II, which is easy, but used RW for the 1BDRM, so who knows if the 1BDRM would have come through with II, apparently it hadn't at the 4 month mark. I'm not sure a SW bronze would ever get a 1BDRM for Pres week Maui, outside of flex at least. Please remember Perry is a TS master, and even if we knew exactly what he did, we probably still wouldn't have the patience and guile to pull it off. 


And if you can manage a 2BDRM LO, and can split to rent/use, then buying resale can actually be a smart proposition.

So to me the only time its a winning proposition to buy resale at the Maui Marriott, or any similiar prime location, is when you need a 2BDRM in prime time, and you can manage the LO effectively. Then it can actually be a profit center.

Regards.
Joe


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## PerryM (Feb 19, 2008)

MOXJO7282 said:


> This is a good question. This is especially true with 1BDRM units. If you need a 2 BDRM for holiday or prime weeks every year, and can't take a chance with playing the waiting game, which may compromise airline costs, you will probably still need to own.
> 
> With 2BDRMs you could still make an argument to buy resale, because its still a big challenge to trade into a 2BDRM, especially to Maui during prime weeks, which I doubt a SW bronze would accomplish that.
> 
> ...



The MOC is not the finest timeshare we stay at in northern Maui – the Sands of Kahana is much larger, nicer, and has NO A/C with a breeze that is fantastic 24 hrs a day.  I personally would never buy MOC under any circumstances; I’d buy the Sands of Kahana in a blink if we needed to buy one.  The Sands is a little older but it's just about twice as large and has a full kitchen and washer/dryer and I love the location in Kahana.

However this is our 4th year of staying in both resorts and it’s kind of nice to spend a week at the MOC and a week at the Sands.  The new MOC towers rival the Westin and the prices match too.  So there is no shortage of folks wanting to pay big bucks to spend a week or two in Maui once a year.

I’m perfectly happy with taking the risk of an exchange for the huge savings in up front capital.  I expect more and more opportunities to exchange into virtually any Marriott in the future years.  Even Maui owners get tired of coming back year after year and put their units up for exchange.

Of course an internal Marriott exchange program will shoot this strategy to hell.


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 19, 2008)

PerryM said:


> I agree that folks spending $60k for a week on Maui is hard to understand but when we attended last night's owner's get together about 90% of the name tags were Maui owners - they come year after year and are extremely happy with their ownership.
> 
> ALL of them, however, are very unhappy with Marriott reservations - they have bought the atomic clocks and call exactly at 8 AM CST to make their reservation or click their mouse.  Many were snookered with leap year this year and were calling in a day late and settled for their 3rd choice.  Even so they got President's week but really wanted Christmas week or 4th of July week.



This is the Achilles heel of Marriott and I own MMC and have a hard time getting one week for July 4th at MMC as I don't own two weeks for the 13 month reservation window.


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## PerryM (Feb 19, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> This is the Achilles heel of Marriott and I own MMC and have a hard time getting one week for July 4th at MMC as I don't own two weeks for the 13 month reservation window.



It's funny that while waiting in line for the free Mai Tais at the owner's get together the vitriol of the reservation system kind of spread down the line like a lit trail of gunpowder.

Wow was that a hot topic.  I mentioned the Thursday trick with adding a Marriott in front of the Maui with a Thursday check-in and it was like one of those commercials where everyone gets real quite while they listen and you can almost see the wheels turning in their mind.

It was a hoot!


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## MOXJO7282 (Feb 19, 2008)

PerryM said:


> The MOC is not the finest timeshare we stay at in northern Maui – the Sands of Kahana is much larger, nicer, and has NO A/C with a breeze that is fantastic 24 hrs a day.  I personally would never buy MOC under any circumstances; I’d buy the Sands of Kahana in a blink if we needed to buy one.  The Sands is a little older but it's just about twice as large and has a full kitchen and washer/dryer and I love the location in Kahana.



I can't speak to the Sands because I've never seen it, although it appears most feel MOC is much nicer, but I do know it doesn't rent nearly as well as the MOC, which is a big part of my approach. I have a friend that owns there and she can't get more than $2000 for a holiday week, whereas MOC can get $3500 or more.  MOC prime, not holiday can still get $3000, whereas Sands would be lucky to get $1500.

Personally I could never go to a resort without AC, even with the wind, its just not what I prefer. But more importantly if I can't split/use and/or rent to put some significant money in my pocket, while I take these great family vacations, its not a winning plan for me. Even if I spent much more with MOC, my plan provides an agressive ROI, whereas the Sands, even when spending less, has almost no ROI, so its not a wise purchase in my mind. If you can rent for a few bucks more than MF, then buying never would make sense, and that is the case with the Sands. 


Regards.
Joe


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## sdtugger (Feb 19, 2008)

Before we bought MOC, we looked at Westin (crazy prices and maintenance fees and not as close to heart of Kaanapali), Embassy/Sunterra (very few 2 bedrooms and even farther from heart of Kaanapali), and Sands of Kahana (friend owned two fixed Christmas/New years weeks).  Sad to say, the lack of AC took the Sands off the table right away.  In addition, although the units are bigger, they have the feel of an apartment not a destination resort.  And, there is nothing approaching the super pool at the Marriott (and Westin and to some extent the Embassy).  But, the up front cost is much cheaper.

We bought because we wanted to go on a holiday week every year and didn't think we'd be able to trade.


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## pwrshift (Feb 19, 2008)

Bill ... as you know, July 4th is the No.1 desired week at MMC and MSE and once half the suites are gone to the 13 monthers (like me) the other half go pretty quickly at the 12th month point to owners who know how to play the game.  At least you have a chance at a couple of hundred suites.  But, if you miss the window you probably have a better chance getting a July 4th week on an II exchange or Ebay.

On the other hand, HCC only offers one Hilton Head location and I'll bet if you called 2 minutes after the opening bell for reservations 12 months ahead, it would be gone too.  

I agree the Marriott reservation system leaves a lot to be desired if you want a prime prime week, but suspect that's the same with all floating week timeshares (and DC's?) not just Marriott.  Years ago I had two fixed week non-Marriotts and never had 'booking' stress ... in fact I just showed up on my weeks and never even confirmed with them that I was coming.  While the floating week system gives you more flexibility, it ain't so good for key holiday weeks....too much demand for too few availabilities.

Brian




Steamboat Bill said:


> This is the Achilles heel of Marriott and I own MMC and have a hard time getting one week for July 4th at MMC as I don't own two weeks for the 13 month reservation window.


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## pwrshift (Feb 19, 2008)

MOXJO7282 said:


> ...I have a friend that owns there and she can't get more than $2000 for a holiday week, whereas MOC can get $3500 or more. MOC prime, not holiday can still get $3000, whereas Sands would be lucky to get $1500.


 
Here's a Ko Olina rental that just went for $1035 ... seems low for a 1 bdrm?

Brian

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280199591269&ssPageName=ADME:B:DBS:US:1123


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## MOXJO7282 (Feb 19, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> Here's a Ko Olina rental that just went for $1035 ... seems low for a 1 bdrm?
> 
> Brian
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280199591269&ssPageName=ADME:B:DBS:US:1123



That's why I stick with Maui, and specifically the MOC, because it is one of the few that consistently rents at a "good" rate. Forget O olina and Kauai Marriotts, as nice as these resorts are, they just don't rent nearly as well as the MOC. 

Regards.
Joe


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 19, 2008)

MOXJO7282 said:


> I can't speak to the Sands because I've never seen it, although it appears most feel MOC is much nicer, but I do know it doesn't rent nearly as well as the MOC, which is a big part of my approach. I have a friend that owns there and she can't get more than $2000 for a holiday week, whereas MOC can get $3500 or more.  MOC prime, not holiday can still get $3000, whereas Sands would be lucky to get $1500.



My quick calculation is MOC should cost about $5000 for a 2 bedroom oceanfront/view room for the week. If you can rent this for $3500-$4000, then it would be silly to buy here.


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## Lawlar (Feb 19, 2008)

*Nice if you got it*



PerryM said:


> I agree that folks spending $60k for a week on Maui is hard to understand but when we attended last night's owner's get together about 90% of the name tags were Maui owners - they come year after year and are extremely happy with their ownership.



I spent a good deal of time in the Lahaina Villas jacuzzi at MOC two weeks ago which gave me the opportunity to meet and talk with a lot of owners.  They were an impressive group - very wealthy - not just rich, but very wealthy.  Also, very well educated.  

Most of these people come every year and the cost is nothing to them.  One guy I met owns two units in the old building and just bought (in November) a 3 bedroom in the Lahaina Villas (he only paid $61,000 for it - how did he do that?).  He had 18 family members with him.  

It was amazing.


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## sdtugger (Feb 19, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> My quick calculation is MOC should cost about $5000 for a 2 bedroom oceanfront/view room for the week. If you can rent this for $3500-$4000, then it would be silly to buy here.



huh?  wouldn't you want to compare between cost to own versus cost to rent?  In my case, our  cost to own is less than cost to rent.


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 19, 2008)

sdtugger said:


> huh?  wouldn't you want to compare between cost to own versus cost to rent?  In my case, our  cost to own is less than cost to rent.



Please post the details.


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## MOXJO7282 (Feb 19, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> My quick calculation is MOC should cost about $5000 for a 2 bedroom oceanfront/view room for the week. If you can rent this for $3500-$4000, then it would be silly to buy here.



I assume your "quick calculation" is based on a direct price with op cost factored in. I tend to agree in that scenerio, but in a resale model you can have a positive ROI. Again as I said its much stronger if you can split to rent/use, but even a 2 BDRM bougth resale and used during primetime can have a positive ROI.

Now there are plenty of people that bought at a much better price point, and were given  significant reward points, that  leaves them with a much lower TCO (total cost of ownership), and those owners, also have a positive ROI.

Its the new buyers that pay the highest price and didn't get reward point value that have a negative ROI, and should be renting instead of owning.

Regards.
Joe


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## PerryM (Feb 19, 2008)

*I vote for vanilla...*

The reason we will be staying at a 3BR Sands of Kahana next week is because folks don’t want any part of a non A/C timeshare on Maui.  The high today was 80 F and we had our MOC sliding glass doors open all day and it was very nice – no A/C so far on this trip.  We have been to the Sands in August and the place was very very comfortable.  But I’m glad there are many who pass up this great resort because of the lack of A/C.

If I had a choice of a 2BR Sands or a 2BR MOC I’d probably go with the Sands.  But I like vanilla ice cream too and many don’t.  It’s a personal thing.

The money required to stay at a 2BR or 3BR Sands resale and a 2BR MOC resale is about 25%.  The MF is lower and yes the place has the feel of a condo complex (Because that’s what it is, the developer just bought a number of units in the condo complex and made them timeshares) and this gets back to the feeling of a Destination Club versus a timeshare.

Me, I favor the Sands.


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## PerryM (Feb 19, 2008)

*Attended a 60 minute owner’s workshop - A*

Just came back from a 60 minute MOC owner’s workshop.  Out of the 100 folks there we were the only ones who exchanged in.  I caught only ONE error in the 60 minutes – great job Marriott.

The first 30 minutes was dedicated to making reservations at the 12 month mark – our instructor ran out of time for the 13 month.  That would have been a hoot.  To say that this is a hot topic is an understatement - almost everyone was confused as to when they call in.

The other 30 minutes was dedicated to II exchanges and how they work.

I got the impression that the other folks came away with more questions than when they came in.  I felt sorry for them.

Overall I’d give Marriott an A for the job.  (Only had chilled tap water for refreshments – that’s why they didn’t get an A+)


One MOC owner reported that the web site was active at midnight EST and make his 3 week reservations then - the instructor doubted it but said crazier things have happened.

Anyone ever make a reservation at midnight EST instead of the 9 AM start time for a reservation?


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## sdtugger (Feb 19, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Please post the details.



Maintenance fees of $1500 plus use of capital cost of 5% per year of $1500 (let's say $30K purchase price to make the math easy) = total annual cost of $3000.  That's for a 2 bedroom ocean view.  Rental cost is almost always higher and certainly higher for holiday periods.


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## pwrshift (Feb 20, 2008)

PerryM said:


> ...Anyone ever make a reservation at midnight EST instead of the 9 AM start time for a reservation?


 
To my knowledge the online booking and phone booking time is exactly the same ... 9 am EST. Otherwise they'd all be gone by the time they answered the phones. 

In my case, due to the complications of locking off and booking 4 weeks in a row instead of 2 weeks at the 13th month point, I prefer to do it with a live person as I don't know if you can actually do that online.

Brian


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## m61376 (Feb 20, 2008)

PerryM said:


> One MOC owner reported that the web site was active at midnight EST and make his 3 week reservations then - the instructor doubted it but said crazier things have happened.
> 
> Anyone ever make a reservation at midnight EST instead of the 9 AM start time for a reservation?



Maybe he thought he lucked out because he forgot that this year Wednesday was the day rather than Thursday to call for most 12 month out reservations. Unless I am mistaken, I thought to take advantage of the 13 month rule it had to be called in anyway and you couldn't use the website until 12 months in advance. So...that owner was likely quite confused and just lucky that his 3 weeks were still available. 

I tend to take what people say happened with a grain of salt sometimes. Oftentimes, when you inquire further, it didn't happen exactly the way they were certain it did.


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## PerryM (Feb 20, 2008)

m61376 said:


> Maybe he thought he lucked out because he forgot that this year Wednesday was the day rather than Thursday to call for most 12 month out reservations. Unless I am mistaken, I thought to take advantage of the 13 month rule it had to be called in anyway and you couldn't use the website until 12 months in advance. So...that owner was likely quite confused and just lucky that his 3 weeks were still available.
> 
> I tend to take what people say happened with a grain of salt sometimes. Oftentimes, when you inquire further, it didn't happen exactly the way they were certain it did.



I talked with the guy and he is VERY knowledgeable and this had nothing to do with leap year.  I believe the guy and he was doing a "dry run" on the Internet and was going to make 3 more reservations (concurrent) at the 12 month window which should have opened 9 hours later.  This was at Maui and there is no way that 3 reservations would sit around for 1 month from the 13 month inventory.

I guess he could have been putting us on and I guess he could have been totally confused but I believe the guy.


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## mjs (Feb 20, 2008)

PerryM said:


> Wow was that a hot topic.  I mentioned the Thursday trick with adding a Marriott in front of the Maui with a Thursday check-in and it was like one of those commercials where everyone gets real quite while they listen and you can almost see the wheels turning in their mind.
> 
> 
> Perry,   My experience with 13 month or more reservations,  -I was told that every reservation had to start with the same day of the week.   Is this not correct?
> Mark


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## PerryM (Feb 20, 2008)

mjs said:


> PerryM said:
> 
> 
> > Wow was that a hot topic.  I mentioned the Thursday trick with adding a Marriott in front of the Maui with a Thursday check-in and it was like one of those commercials where everyone gets real quite while they listen and you can almost see the wheels turning in their mind.
> ...


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## MikeM132 (Feb 20, 2008)

PerryM said:


> Tomorrow we will be treated to the workmen doing their thing starting at 5AM I'm told.


I'll be there in May. If they start at 5AM I'll have already been up for about 2 hours by then, if this trip is anything like my last from PA to HI. It took me a week to adjust to the time.


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## PerryM (Feb 20, 2008)

MikeM132 said:


> I'll be there in May. If they start at 5AM I'll have already been up for about 2 hours by then, if this trip is anything like my last from PA to HI. It took me a week to adjust to the time.



Well the workmen arrive in force at 8 AM so it's not that bad.  They quit at 4 PM and the evenings are great here - sliding glass door open all the time while it's sleeting back in St Louis


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## Lawlar (Feb 21, 2008)

*Still Serene*



PerryM said:


> Well the workmen arrive in force at 8 AM so it's not that bad.  They quit at 4 PM and the evenings are great here - sliding glass door open all the time while it's sleeting back in St Louis



Perry, would you agree with me that the construction noise is not a problem once you go to the pool area - or a little bit down the beach.  When I was there in January I never heard the noise except when I walked over to see what was going on.  

For those who haven't been to Maui, and are concerned about the noise, don't worry.  There are plenty of quiet places to enjoy one of the most beautiful beaches in the world.

Perry: you are right about the wonderful nights.  We slept with the windows wide open all night - and as a bonus, we could hear the ocean waves, which put us to sleep.


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## PerryM (Feb 21, 2008)

Lawlar said:


> Perry, would you agree with me that the construction noise is not a problem once you go to the pool area - or a little bit down the beach.  When I was there in January I never heard the noise except when I walked over to see what was going on.
> 
> For those who haven't been to Maui, and are concerned about the noise, don't worry.  There are plenty of quiet places to enjoy one of the most beautiful beaches in the world.
> 
> Perry: you are right about the wonderful nights.  We slept with the windows wide open all night - and as a bonus, we could hear the ocean waves, which put us to sleep.



There is NO noise, well except for the little birds, after 4 PM and before 8 AM.  It's 7:15 AM now and we are listening to the surf which is about 100 yards away.

During the day the jack hammers are going and workers are all over the building so don't plan on sitting out on the lanai during that time.  The pools have NO noise at all.

Yesterday we spent the afternoon in front of the new pools watching the most fantastic whale show we've ever seen.  People were Oooooing and Ahhhhhing all afternoon - fantastic.


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## thinze3 (Feb 21, 2008)

PerryM said:


> ..Yesterday we spent the afternoon in front of the new pools watching the most fantastic whale show we've ever seen.  People were Oooooing and Ahhhhhing all afternoon - fantastic.




*@#$%^&*  -  I am so jealous that I am about to jump through my computer screen and join you!!!*


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## PerryM (Feb 23, 2008)

*Bye Bye MOC*

Well today we check out of the MOC and head for a 3BR Sands of Kahana - bye bye.

The only bad experience happened this morning when we woke up at 5 am from cigarette smoke drifting in from a lanai nearby.  After the 4th cigarette I called the front desk and asked them to send someone out and find the guy - they couldn't find him in the darkness.  The lady at the front desk said if they find him/her they would sock them with a deep cleaning fee for smoking on the property.  I was hopeful but to no avail.

I went out on our dark lanai and whispered "No smoking on the lanai moron" and I could hear furniture shuffling around and our night smoker stopped.  It was nice to spend a week without the stale smell of smoke.  Marriott has designated smoking areas by the ocean where the huddled masses gather to puff away.

All in all we had a fantastic time and can't wait for the next II exchange.

P.S.
Yesterday I spent the day under an umbrella watching a US submarine in front of the MOC/Lahaina  - it was there the whole day with a frigate class ship circling the sub and sending launches back and forth.  The crew of the sub was up on deck waiving to us - it was a hoot.  About 5 PM you could see rising gushers of water as the sub sunk below the water and the frigate headed out of the harbor at full speed.

P.P.S.
If you buy one of those MOC mugs for all the coffee, tea, and sodas you can guzzle down remember to put a paper coffee cup in the plastic mug so the coffee taste and smell doesn't get burned into the plastic.  That way one mug serves up coffee in the AM to the adults and sodas during the day for the kids.  Then sell the mug on eBay and get back 1/2 your purchase price!


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## taffy19 (Feb 23, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> *@#$%^&* - I am so jealous that I am about to jump through my computer screen and join you!!!*


Yes, the time of year to go to the Islands is when the whales are there.     It is truly amazing to see them.  We saw a pod of whales too last year April when we were there.  They were so close right off the beach in front of this resort.


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 24, 2008)

PerryM said:


> If you buy one of those MOC mugs for all the coffee, tea, and sodas you can guzzle down remember to put a paper coffee cup in the plastic mug so the coffee taste and smell doesn't get burned into the plastic.  That way one mug serves up coffee in the AM to the adults and sodas during the day for the kids.  Then sell the mug on eBay and get back 1/2 your purchase price!




Thats funny...I posted a similar idea for Disney and posted it on DISboards a few years ago and the thread was deleted and I got a warning.

ps...how much do you want for your mug?


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## PerryM (Feb 24, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Thats funny...I posted a similar idea for Disney and posted it on DISboards a few years ago and the thread was deleted and I got a warning.
> 
> ps...how much do you want for your mug?



It's funny but the day we checked in a Marriott owner was checking out and just yelled out "Anyone want one of these bottomless mugs?"  - I probably sent a new land speed record in getting over to the guy.

We did look up the mugs on eBay before we came but just ran out of time buying one.  I guess some will find this reprehensible - and I'll hang my head low for a few minutes and repent.


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 24, 2008)

PerryM said:


> It's funny but the day we checked in a Marriott owner was checking out and just yelled out "Anyone want one of these bottomless mugs?"  - I probably sent a new land speed record in getting over to the guy.
> 
> We did look up the mugs on eBay before we came but just ran out of time buying one.  I guess some will find this reprehensible - and I'll hang my head low for a few minutes and repent.



That is one of the funniest post I have read in a long time....you and I would get along well...please call me when you visit South Florida. 

I am in Park City now and you are missing some huge snow.


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## PerryM (Feb 24, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> That is one of the funniest post I have read in a long time....you and I would get along well...please call me when you visit South Florida.
> 
> I am in Park City now and you are missing some huge snow.



I've been getting the snow reports as we watch whales here in Maui - yes timeshare ownership is fraught with hard choices.


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## MOXJO7282 (Feb 24, 2008)

PerryM said:


> Then sell the mug on eBay and get back 1/2 your purchase price!



Or find someone just before you leave and sell it to them, and save ebay fees and shipping costs. I've sold a few on ebay, then last Feb, perhaps almost to the day, as we were there last year at this time, about to leave paradise. Found someone who bought both of mine for $18 each.

Regards.
Joe


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## winger (Feb 24, 2008)

MOXJO7282 said:


> Or find someone just before you leave and sell it to them, and save ebay fees and shipping costs. I've sold a few on ebay, then last Feb, perhaps almost to the day, as we were there last year at this time, about to leave paradise. Found someone who bought both of mine for $18 each.
> 
> Regards.
> Joe


what's the point of selling? These make great souveniers, IMO. I love sipping a nice sunday morning coffee from my Ko Olina, or Newport Coast Villa, or Timber Lodge mugs!  Of course, if it were stainless steel, like the later two instead of plastic (Ko Olina and Maui), even better! No stinking coffee smell burnt into the plastic!


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## winger (Feb 24, 2008)

PerryM said:


> ....The only bad experience happened this morning when we woke up at 5 am from cigarette smoke drifting in from a lanai nearby.  After the 4th cigarette I called the front desk and asked them to send someone out and find the guy - they couldn't find him in the darkness.  The lady at the front desk said if they find him/her they would sock them with a deep cleaning fee for smoking on the property.  I was hopeful but to no avail.
> 
> I went out on our dark lanai and whispered "No smoking on the lanai moron" and I could hear furniture shuffling around and our night smoker stopped.  It was nice to spend a week without the stale smell of smoke.  ...


 Perry, you need to bring one of these with you next time...

http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main...sent/00/M6supandreg-sup-Guardiansupandreg-sup


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## PerryM (Feb 24, 2008)

winger said:


> Perry, you need to bring one of these with you next time...
> 
> http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main...sent/00/M6supandreg-sup-Guardiansupandreg-sup



That's a great idea!  And only $399 too!

However, the whispering into the night really made my whole day.  I heard the scraping of the lanai furniture on the concrete pad and new that I had made my point.  The rest of the day this guy would be thinking how another grown up called him a moron.

Next time I'm just going to whisper and let the guy react - no shouting, no threats, no demand for payment to clean the villa - just a guilty conscience.


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## GregGH (Feb 25, 2008)

*missing reviews ?*



PerryM said:


> Well today we check out of the MOC and head for a 3BR Sands of Kahana - bye bye.



First - any post by Perry is a hoot to read.  This one was no excpetion

Am I BLIND -- Sands of Kahana is on Oahu - right ?  I do not see a review for this resort on TUG reviews.

Perry - how is the neighborhood arround Sands?  Any pictures would be most appreciated.

Greg


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## PerryM (Feb 25, 2008)

GregGH said:


> First - any post by Perry is a hoot to read.  This one was no excpetion
> 
> Am I BLIND -- Sands of Kahana is on Oahu - right ?  I do not see a review for this resort on TUG reviews.
> 
> ...



Unless they built an underwater highway to Oahu, we traveled 2 miles down the road to the Sands of Kahana.  I'll take some pictures and download when we leave Friday night.

We are in a 3BR about 1,800 sq ft and are ocean front.  Fantastic and the breeze is as nice as the Marriott.

Went whale watching this morning and bumped into a couple that own Kauai and Vegas Marriotts and a Westin Maui.  I asked him why they didn't buy Marriott Maui and he said "Who cooks when they come to Maui?" - that was the standard spiel of the old Maui Marriott saldesreps and that insult had them running to Westin to buy.

We got that same reason for not a cooktop or oven when we toured the MOC in past years.  I know that catchy phrase was standard but just how many folks did they insult with that phrase?


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 25, 2008)

PerryM said:


> Unless they built an underwater highway to Oahu, we traveled 2 miles down the road to the Sands of Kahana.  I'll take some pictures and download when we leave Friday night.
> 
> We are in a 3BR about 1,800 sq ft and are ocean front.  Fantastic and the breeze is as nice as the Marriott.



Why are you in a 3bdr...I thought only you and your wife are in Maui.


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## winger (Feb 25, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Why are you in a 3bdr...I thought only you and your wife are in Maui.



Good 'ol Perry and the misses are going to play some hide-and-seek !


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## pwrshift (Feb 25, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Why are you in a 3bdr...I thought only you and your wife are in Maui.


 

Maybe it's a DC with too much space?


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## PerryM (Feb 25, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Why are you in a 3bdr...I thought only you and your wife are in Maui.



We picked up company along the way.....


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## GregGH (Feb 28, 2008)

*back on correct island*

Hi Perry

So - remind me to never search Kahana on maps.google.com - that's why I thought you where going to Ohau - and wondered what the surrounding area was like --I stand corrected.  I sat in the airport drinking beer last year waiting for the weather to clear to fly out - know where you are now 

So - questions on SofK
-did search and the management company also operates unit just to the south (lost link ... where did I out that...)  can you comment on that complex as well?    Wondering is ocean views would be more consistent?   One web site mentioned 'rotating' seeming to refer that one year you are in one of 4 units -then another next year
-does the main. fee cover the required replacement of items?  Would I find this  similar to the Whaler down by the Marriott?

Any time you recommend a place - I get curious and interested ( so please take that as the complement it was intended ).

Greg


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## PerryM (Feb 28, 2008)

GregGH said:


> Hi Perry
> 
> So - remind me to never search Kahana on maps.google.com - that's why I thought you where going to Ohau - and wondered what the surrounding area was like --I stand corrected.  I sat in the airport drinking beer last year waiting for the weather to clear to fly out - know where you are now
> 
> ...



Greg,

The Sands of Kahana is terrible, parking lot views, un-air conditioned and just plain stinks.  I advise II folks to avoid this place at all costs.

(Ok, now that no one is listening I can tell you that I just love this place.  This is our 3rd visit and I call 2 weeks ahead and ask for an ocean view or ocean front and I get it.  The place is NOT a high density resort like MOC but laid back and the breezes keep the units cool year round.  Last night we had to close up since Maui set a new cold record)

So let everyone know - don't exchange into this dump!


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## GregGH (Feb 29, 2008)

Thanks Perry

BAD PLACE - STAY AWAY - got it .... wink ..wink ..

I also appreciate a low density place vs. the 'herd's that get the attention

Try to stay warm ...

Greg


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