# How do you keep your kids off drugs?



## Zac495 (Apr 26, 2009)

Or if they do experiment, what do you/would you do?


We have an ugly situation in our neighborhood and would love to hear what tuggers have to say.


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## Tia (Apr 26, 2009)

This should be an interesting thread. We have a neighbor who has allowed and laughed about teen smoking, loud music, teenagers coming and going all night. Her son can talk with adults easily and say what they want to hear, he did poorly in high school. She now has a hang out for older teens, probably some younger ones too, who are drinking  unemployeed just hanging out. My neighborhood has several doctors, a bank president and many business owners.

We have discouraged our hs senior from going there, but... every now and then


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## pointsjunkie (Apr 26, 2009)

i have 3 adult children 20,23,and 25 and none of them have even tried anything. we have a very open relationship and tell me things that i really don't need to know.

i was home after school everyday so i knew where and with whom they were with. and when they were teenagers i always wanted the kids at our house so i could keep a close eye on everyone. i prayed a lot and i was lucky.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 26, 2009)

Ugh.  Parenting teenagers has to be the MOST difficult job in the world, and I think that getting through those years with minimal drug/alcohol experimentation, nevermind abuse, is as much a product of plain good luck as it is good parenting.  Teenagers' brains are just not developed enough to make good choices at every tempting option.   That's not to say that every kid _will_ make a bad choice, but that every kid _is capable_ of making a bad choice.  Even  the so-called "good" kids.

We were lucky, and I'm thankful for that every day.  The few experiments with alcohol didn't lead to continuing problems, and we didn't know of any drug experimentation.  The first time they were grounded and telephone/computer time was severely limited for two weeks, with another week tacked on each time.  Eileen spent a month of junior year learning to like being at home  , and we didn't know of any problems after that.

But we were strict, also, more strict than most of our friends, and didn't really let up much until the high school years were done.  We did whatever we could to get to know parents of our kids' friends (joined PTA, attended sports events and community activities, said "hello" to everyone, etc.)  We called other parents to find out what the deal was when we heard "but everyone else can do it!", we didn't allow our kids to go to friends' homes for unchaperoned parties, we didn't give them opportunities to host parties here, we didn't allow them to ride in cars with friends until they were licensed themselves, we didn't go to sleep until they were home, we demanded the school grades that they were capable of, we talked to them about everything and anything to the point where they'd plead mercy, and we forced them to spend time with us and our large extended families.  One thing we didn't do was a set curfew - we gave them a time to be home once we knew what their plans were.

But as I said, we were lucky.  All that "good parenting" didn't guarantee us anything.  We know of three families where the parenting style was similar to ours, now being torn apart by their young adults' alcohol and drug use.  And we know of quite a few where the "bad kid" from high school is now a successful young adult.

Our community now is dealing with an oxycontin/heroin implosion.  In the five years since mine have left high school, nine students have died due to alcohol/drug use.  I can't even imagine how those families are coping.  There have been numerous school assemblies and community meetings to educate teens and their parents, but the number one roadblock to the message is the kids' feeling of invincibility.  Remember how when we were teens, nothing bad could ever happen to us?  That's a teen brain at work, and that will never change.


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## applegirl (Apr 26, 2009)

I hope lots of TUGgers with teens or who have parented teens will chime in here.  This should prove to be an interesting thread and I will be following it since someday I will have teenagers when my 6 and 3 year olds grow up!

I do believe parents are the #1 influence in their kids lives, but they will still make their own decisions.  Thus it makes me wonder how much luck does play a part?

Janna


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## SueDonJ (Apr 26, 2009)

pointsjunkie said:


> i have 3 adult children 20,23,and 25 and none of them have even tried anything. we have a very open relationship and tell me things that i really don't need to know.
> 
> i was home after school everyday so i knew where and with whom they were with. and when they were teenagers i always wanted the kids at our house so i could keep a close eye on everyone. i prayed a lot and i was lucky.



That's a good point, about being home with the kids and letting them have their friends over. I was lucky that I could work at home, and as much as it was sometimes an inconvenience we did let our kids entertain whenever they wanted to and we were here.   It was (and still is, while they're living here) important to us that our kids thought of our house as their house.  Some days we actually put our feet down and said that if they wanted to see their friends it would have to be here.

I know some folks say that in their marriage, their relationship with their spouse is always the number one priority.  I think that for the short period of time that teens are demanding attention, you have to put parenting at least on an equal footing with the marriage.  At certain time, even, it's imperative that the marriage will have to come second.  I also think that parenting teens _together_ will strengthen a marriage.


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## JudyH (Apr 26, 2009)

I did what Susan did.  No driving unless they maintained a B average.  I kept them in so many activities they didn't have free time to hang.  Hardly any allowance, so they had to keep busy with part time jobs.  I was lucky they were late bloomers so didn't date girls until after highschool.  Friends came here instead of them going other places.  Parents were called to be sure they'd be home.  If they were teens today, I'd be checking their text messages randomly.  I did random car checks, trunk checks, room checks.  They knew this was part of the deal for all their privledges.  I did random checks on their internet history.  I did bookbag checks weekly.  In college, the deal was don't get any one pregnant, keep grades above B, don't do anything illegal, because if you get caught doing something illegal and its your fault,  don't call me.  At all.

Yes I was lucky.  Dad and I stayed married, we modeled the behaviors we wanted.  We talked out the problems.  There were no "life-changing accidents".

I am a social worker with a private practice with children and adolescents.  When I tell parents to do things the way I did, the most popular response is, "my teen won't let me, as in look in the book bag, check the text message, look at the facebook page".  I have one family I see where the 8th grade girl is regularly allowed to spend the night at the 10th grade boyfriends house.  They are seeing me cause the girl is out of control, and yet they think my limits are nuts.  Hello, what's wrong with this picture?

My usual philosophy?  Set firm limits,  and  don't escalate small disagreements into major explosions.


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## Patri (Apr 26, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> Ugh.  Parenting teenagers has to be the MOST difficult job in the world, and I think that getting through those years with minimal drug/alcohol experimentation, nevermind abuse, is as much a product of plain good luck as it is good parenting.  Teenagers' brains are just not developed enough to make good choices at every tempting option.   That's not to say that every kid _will_ make a bad choice, but that every kid _is capable_ of making a bad choice.  Even  the so-called "good" kids.
> 
> But as I said, we were lucky.  All that "good parenting" didn't guarantee us anything.  We know of three families where the parenting style was similar to ours, now being torn apart by their young adults' alcohol and drug use.  And we know of quite a few where the "bad kid" from high school is now a successful young adult.
> 
> There have been numerous school assemblies and community meetings to educate teens and their parents, but the number one roadblock to the message is the kids' feeling of invincibility.  Remember how when we were teens, nothing bad could ever happen to us?  That's a teen brain at work, and that will never change.



These comments are right on, and no parent should ever think their teens have told them everything, no matter how open the relationship. Dime to a dollar every teen has done something they don't want their parents to know about. Sometimes their comments come out years later when it is clear no harm was done and the parents have no reason to get angry anymore.
Drugfree kids is parenting as well as luck. That invincibility truly does affect the mindset of middle and high schoolers. I have been talking to school, court and law enforcement personnel on this very issue for a project. They are not so quick to pass blame or assume anyone is exempt from these problems. 
Drugs are so nasty and easily accessible. Too many families have been torn apart because a kid makes that first poor choice.
And as one cop told me, there aren't many happy endings, especially if they get into heroin.


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## normab (Apr 26, 2009)

I believe in talking to your kids from a young age and sharing your beliefs with them.  The dialogue needs to start from a young age and they may rebel as teens in many ways, but most kids will follow your values.

Another important thing is practicing what you preach.  You can't say one thing and do another.  They see.  An example:  Because we drink wine in front of our son, we allowed him to have some at home with us when he was about 15.  He never drank much.  Then he was leaving for college.  Since we know that college kids drink whether they are legal or not, we did not tell him he should never drink while underage in college.  Instead, we talked about the possible negative consequences (Drunk driving accidents/deaths, alcohol poisoning, getting arrested for underage drinking etc).  And we told him that while he was away at school and not living at home, he had to make choices for himself, and those choices could impact the rest of his life.  So we tried to help him make intelligent choices.  (Note--were we successful? NOT! I do not want to even think about how much he has imbibed since he is in a fraternity- )

If you lay the correct foundation and as teens they choose to stray down the wrong path, there is only so much parents can do.  They generally resent parental intrusion of any sort. And many kids need to learn from their own experience, no matter how much we want to influence them with good advice!  This is my opinion based on what I have seen in my own family and friends families.


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## Redrosesix (Apr 26, 2009)

Just echoing what the PP's have said, my SIL finally got through the teen years with her 2 -- they turned out great, but there were some rough times for her since she decided to stay in firm control ie. wouldn't have been so much fighting if she had just given them total freedom.  She always said she thought they needed her supervision more as teens than when they were little, since they always wanted to please her when they were little.

So, she let them have friends over when she was home, preferred that all the teens hung out at her home (fed them well to keep them happy) and knew when to be a mom and when to act like a friend (she said if she knew they were trying to tell her something that was hard to talk about, she tried not to appear too judgmental -- just wanted to know everything that they were thinking, what their friends were doing, etc -- way more important than scolding them).

The other thing is that she started giving them some freedom at an early age but made it very clear they could lose it by screwing up even a little bit.  We're doing the same now -- your word is your honour, show you can be trusted, type of thing.

I used to work with at-risk youth and read a lot of research studies on these issues -- lots of evidence that kids who are involved in sports (especially girls) are less likely to take drugs, etc.  It's also a very healthy outlet for all of the frustration they face in their lives, growing up, figuring out where they want to go.  The other plus is that they have friends from a more select pool ie. not just anybody at their school.

We haven't even started this phase yet, so I can't guarantee this advice for preventing problems, but I will tell you that the parents of the youth that I used to work with did none of these things.  I only have experience with kids once the problems are already there, and that's a totally different thing, I think.


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## voyager1 (Apr 26, 2009)

Good luck as you approach the most difficult years of parenting.  I always laugh as people talk about the "terrible 2's" and comment they are a piece of cake compared to the "terrible teens".  Even the very best of children are difficult then as their hormones and not fully developed brains outweigh common sense.

Mine are now 44, 39 and 28 and we're facing the same challenge with my 14 and 13 year old grandchildren.  My philosophy then and now is that you can never be too available for your children.  When we were in the car, rather than have headphones on, we would talk.  It's amazing how some of our very best conversations regarding sex, drugs, morality, etc. happened then.  I think it's easier to ask your parents questions when you know they can't look you in the eye.  If they were embarrassed or ashamed they figured they could conceal it.  It also provided the excuse for a momentary pause in response as I gathered my wits for a non-judgmental answer.  We discussed everything and I frequently had to respond to questions that surprised me and information I would have preferred not to hear.  The same discussions occurred around the house - usually as an adjunct to something else we were doing (like house or yard work) where the focus wasn't entirely on them and their questions/comments.  I worked hard at being the sounding board as they worked out what the best course of action was.  I wanted it to become a part of their good decision making rather than just a rule their Dad or I set forth.

I also attended every parent/teacher night and every open house for each of my children.  I still remember the last one my youngest had as a senior in high school.  I wasn't feeling too well and he kept insisting I didn't need to go.  I explained that it was the last opportunity I would ever have to enjoy making the rounds and talking to his teachers and I was not about to miss it.  He went on to graduate 1st in his class for both his Bachelor's and Master's degrees.  I believe the best investment we can make in our children is our time.  I was continually saddened to see only 4 or 5 other parents in attendance at all of the high school parent/teacher nights.  Whether a child is a slow learner, an overachiever or anywhere in between - taking the time to be a part of their life lets them know you care.

We had their friends over all of the time.  They were treated just like our own.  They knew what type of behavior we expected and because they were at our house we could observe their personalities and decision making skills for ourselves.  Over the years there were a 2 or 3 kids who just couldn't behave, but the decision not to invite them back was never ours.  Somehow our kids figured out they just didn't fit in.

We didn't provide a set allowance.  When they worked they were expected to save some of their earnings and when they weren't working they would earn the money for special events/purchases by helping us.  Their curfew was determined by the hours of the event they were attending.  I always stayed up until they returned home and we always spent at least a few minutes discussing whether they had a good time.

I have a mellow temperament so anger or yelling wouldn't have worked for me.  Instead my children new that I believed in them and believed in their ability to make the right decision and do the right thing.  Their concern, rather than making me mad, was disappointing me.  Like all children they made mistakes.  They knew that we would then discuss what happened and they would have to figure out what would have been a better choice.  At the time they dreaded those discussions, but as adults they have thanked me as they deal with their own parenting issues.  I always made certain they knew I loved them - even if I disliked and/or disapproved of their behavior.

I also did the backpack check (as much to find the "forgotten" notes to home as things that didn't belong there).  They also had to use the "house" computer so I could monitor visited websites, etc.  They had homework time and also a reasonable bed time.  I knew they needed their sleep even if they thought they were invincible.  I always had access to their rooms and if they wanted to drive they had to maintain B or better grades.

Our emphasis was on risk versus reward.  They knew that drug or alcohol use and an unplanned pregnancy or STD could impact not only their health, but their future.  We expected them to consider whether the momentary reward was worth that risk.


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## Blondie (Apr 26, 2009)

Know who they hang out with. Know where they are. Check up on them and let them know you will. Do not fall for that old "eveyone else's parents are letting them," excuse.  Don't be afraid to be the bad guy and don't leave them alone with free time on their hands and no supervision. Don't leave their rearing to the schools- they didn't "birth" 'em. Trust them but not so much that you fail to see what you should. Know the parents of their friends. Gosh, I could go on but I think this covers the first lesson.


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## pgnewarkboy (Apr 26, 2009)

If anybody here has not been able to keep their children away from drugs - a post would be extremely informative.  It is very hard to know "what worked".  I think it will be more informative to learn from someone where they tried but whatever they did - it didn't "work."  

As far as I know my children did not experiment with drugs.  I prosecuted children and others for drug offenses and also defended them.  I have seen the worst.  I was scared for my children based upon what I saw.  I was extremely explicit about what I saw and extremely explicit about how I would punish my children should they err.

I honestly can't say if what I did and said worked.  I represented and prosecuted teens and young adults for drug offenses that seemed to have wonderful,caring, and involved parents.  I was convinced that would not be enough.  I had to scare the *** out of em.  Maybe it worked, maybe I was lucky.  Maybe it would only work for me or someone with similar experience because my experience resulted in extremely credible stories and advice based on those stories.


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## pointsjunkie (Apr 26, 2009)

one thing that many parents don't consider is that when you let your kids go over someone else's house that parent might have a very different set of values and they could be doing drugs with their kids or giving them liquor and they don't think there is anything wrong with it. there are a lot of wacko adults out there.


we took it one step further, when it was time for out kids to go to college we sat each one down and said. you can have a free ride to colelge, you don't have to get a job,BUT if you decide to party too much and not get a B average per semester then that semester is on the child and they will have to take out a loan to pay for it. they new we meant business and we have never had to pay.  they could get a C in a class but there better be an A in another class to average it out to the B.

this is not an easy job but, it is the most important one.


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## EAM (Apr 26, 2009)

To prevent (with no guarantees that it will work):

Increase "developmental assets" as described here: http://www.search-institute.org/assets/

Trust but monitor, monitor, monitor.  E.g. the computer has to be where you can randomly look over their shoulder, if they have a Facebook page, they have to let you be their "friend," if they have a cell phone, you need to be able to tell whom they are calling and texting and when, etc.

Make sure your kids feel comfortable talking about feelings, thoughts, etc.

Have your kids see a psychologist as a "well-child" checkup.  Some kids are hurting emotionally all their lives and think it is normal, then turn to drugs to relieve the pain.  

What to do if they try drugs:  Ask around (physician, school, etc.) for the names of reputable therapists, rehab centers, etc. and take them for an assessment.  Then proceed from there once you know how serious the problem is.


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## jlr10 (Apr 26, 2009)

I was raised in a household where the boys and girls were raised with different standards.  Not sure why that was, but it was. 

The girls had very strict standards.  Set curfews, minimum GPAs that were to be maintained (3.0 or better.)  All friends had to be met by the parents before we could go someplace with them or spend the night at someone's house.  We had set rules and they were to be followed, no questions asked.  We both began working in our sophmore years in high school and from then on were expected to purchase our own things -My mom used to say "The food and roof is all we provide, everything else is on  your dime."

My brothers were permitted to come and go as they pleased, their grades were rarely checked, and they were not held accountable for school work, chores, friends, curfews, etc.  They frequently would go out with 'someone' and we might not see them until the next morning, if then.

The girls finished high school, were accepted in college and went on to get married, have children and establish  very clear guidelines for them (Although not as strict as the ones we had.)  We know who their friends are and think we have a pretty good feel for their actions and morals.

The boys went on to get involved in drinking, drugs, petty theft and neither finished high school.  At the age of 17 they were given the choice, by the court not the parents, to go to  the youth detention facility until they were 21 or join the military.  Both joined the military and both were discharged within 2 years, one medically and the other because the army just wanted him out of the army, period.  They have struggled their entire life with rules and regulations.  I think they are both finally completely free of drug use, and sale, but it took quite a while before they got it together.  They went on to several marriages and have had trouble with their own children who act up.

So far my husband and I have been pretty lucky with our son.  But we  have always reminded him that one stupid action can last a lifetime.  When my son was asked to describe us he said "Dad was pretty nice, and mom was nice but strict." When he was asked what he meant by strict his comment was "She lets me know what the rules are and she expects me to follow them.  As long as I do she is nice.  If I don't she will remind me that I chose the consequences and then she is tough."  He didn't realize it but that was the best complement I think he ever gave me as a mother.  Has he tried drugs?  I don't think so.  He has tried liquor at college but (thankfully) didn't like the taste.  He also knows that if he is reprimanded for any drug or liquor violations at college the free ride is over and he comes home and goes to the local college.  No questions, no excuses, and no second chance.  

We can all wax eloquent about what works, but in reality what works, or doesn't work, depends on the children.  Some will naturally do all the right things even in the worst of circumstances.  Some will make all wrong choices regardless of their upbringing.  So all we can do is do the best we can and pray and pray and pray and wait and see what happens.


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## AKE (Apr 27, 2009)

It is not only about protecting kids from drugs but rather it is stepping up to the role of a parent, FROM THE DAY THE CHILD IS BORN.   It is much easier to be a 'nice' parent and avoiding confrontation than laying down the law from day one.  I have seen countless parents give in to their kids at the supermarket for candy, getting picked up and carried around instead of walking, not doing what they are asked to do, etc etc BECAUSE these parents didnt want to make a scene.  So if the kids don't listen and obey their parents or have respect for authority when they are young then why would anyone think that it is going to change when the kids are teens? You only have one chance to do a good job raising kids and its starts at an early age - by 12 or 13 it will be very difficult to change behaviors in kids (I would guess almost impossible).  BTW, my 3 boys are now mid - late 20's and all have said to me on countless occasions that I was right to be tough with them and be a parent (not a 'friend') .. AND that when they have kids they will raise them the same way.  You can't get a better compliment than that - .


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## BevL (Apr 27, 2009)

*For those going through a rough time with their kids/young adults*

Slightly off topic but our daughter was a B average student through high school.  We were strict with her, perhaps too strict, looking back.  Monitored her friends, curfew, kept an eye on her computer use. 

When she finished school, she moved to a different province with a friend a two years older than her.  We knew the girl, knew her family.  They both got jobs and were enjoying their adventure.

Then things went off the rails.  Both of them started partying too much, lost their jobs, and just started downhill.  By the time our daughter came back, she was partying every night with new "friends", none of her old friends wanted to hang out with her as they were making something of themselves and she just wasn't.

Long story short, she became involved with meth, then heroin then back to meth.  She wasn't living with us but we were constantly bailing her out of jams that she got herself into.  

We finally told her that we couldn't live like this.  We honestly expected to open the door one night to a policeman telling us she was dead.  She ended up living in her car for a few weeks, then phoned and said that she had decided that she would either die in this life she'd made or turn it around.  She didn't go to rehab but got some medical help to deal with the physical withdrawal symptoms and has not touched any sort of drugs since.

I'm not sure what went wrong - we've talked about it and she said things just started spiraling and before she knew it, she was out of control.  We should have done the tough love thing sooner.  It was probably a mistake not to discourage her from moving so far so soon.  Maybe she rebelled against how strict we were when she was younger.  Believe me, we spent many sleepless nights wondering where we had gone wrong.

All this was about four to five years ago. 

The upside of the story?  She gave birth to our second grandchild on Friday.  She's a registered care aide with plans to become a licensed practical nurse.  She is in a very stable relationship with a super guy, planning to get married, have another child and make a good life for themselves.  When she said she wants to give her children the life she had, I cried.

So don't give up if your kids are going through a rough time.  Where there's life, there's hope and even though you beat yourself up for things you maybe could have done differently, if you've done your best, it's all anyone can ask.  And there's a chance, a good one, they will come back to those core values that have been instilled in them.

Sorry for the long post but I thought it might help to tell "the rest of the story."


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## nightnurse613 (Apr 27, 2009)

BevL-couldn't help but respond to your post.  We had 6 children.  We attempted to teach them correct principles and set proper examples.  Our first born was bright and beautiful.  A social butterfly who had the whole world as her oyster shell.  When she was 15 she went to a school dance and tried meth.  In and out of mental institutions/drug rehab. Cut forward 17 years. She just spent the last 15 months in a crisis recovery unit trying to demonstrate that she doesn't need to be permanently institutionalized. She was placed in a supervised group home and two days later my husband had to track her down and found her high on meth again.  I have never used meth and can not understand the compulsion but it is highly addictive and has destroyed many lives, including our daughter's.  For those of you who have not been touched by this tragedy, I say you should fall down and give thanks for your extreme good fortune.  I say fortune because even good parents can (and do) have "bad" kids.  Your daughter was able to overcome a powerful addiction and my hat is off to her.  Congratulations to her and Best Wishes to You and Yours!


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## Zac495 (Apr 27, 2009)

Okay - I'll tell my story. My son was approached by an adult in this area (I have to be careful with details - there's an ongoing investigation and pending arrest). I almost hesitate to tell this - but he's not going to be on TUG...

I'll tell you this - stay away from XBOX live. When arrest is made, I'll tell more - or pm me. 

He's getting help. He just turned 14, but he's my baby.


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## Redrosesix (Apr 27, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> Okay - I'll tell my story. My son was approached by an adult in this area (I have to be careful with details - there's an ongoing investigation and pending arrest). I almost hesitate to tell this - but he's not going to be on TUG...
> 
> I'll tell you this - stay away from XBOX live. When arrest is made, I'll tell more - or pm me.
> 
> He's getting help. He just turned 14, but he's my baby.



Wow!  XBox!  Can't wait to read your updates.

Good luck.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 27, 2009)

I'm sitting here catching up on the thread and want to say something to those of you who have faced these difficulties with your children, but honestly cannot think of the words.  Your strength is amazing.  I hope you continue to find hope and renewed life for your families.  Thank you for sharing, and for the reminder that no family is immune.


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## Tia (Apr 27, 2009)

A friend of mine has 20 something kids and she said one time the most trouble they had with their kids was other peoples parenting styles. 

I can totally see it now exactly what she was talking about... for the last 2 years we have been dealing with difficult parents of friends.  Currently have one mother totally not care to take any time to talk to other  mothers of her childs friend. This mom is does lots of volunteer work.  Another mother and I tried to set up a lunch date with this gal as felt it important to know the other parents some...but she never returned several calls. She is standoffish to other parents but you should see her in action with the girls and all her other kids friends.  Only thing I can think of is her dtr is the youngest of 3 in a professional family of a higher level so we are not of the same social standing, though we both have decent jobs in medicine and teaching. Her dtr and mine snuck out a month ago and said they were at the others house over night, but they were not at either. Mine got no sleep overs for 3 months but her dtr lied again as to what happened.. so got "zero" consequence as far as I can tell. Her dtr is an A student, so is mine, advanced placement. The older brother in that family a Junior in hs has had 2 MIP's, just found out and their oldest is in college but had a wild reputation in hs come to find out after the girls are friends. I am the mean mom.



pointsjunkie said:


> one thing that many parents don't consider is that when you let your kids go over someone else's house that parent might have a very different set of values and they could be doing drugs with their kids or giving them liquor and they don't think there is anything wrong with it. there are a lot of wacko adults out there....


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## swift (Apr 27, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> Okay - I'll tell my story. My son was approached by an adult in this area (I have to be careful with details - there's an ongoing investigation and pending arrest). I almost hesitate to tell this - but he's not going to be on TUG...
> 
> I'll tell you this - stay away from XBOX live. When arrest is made, I'll tell more - or pm me.
> 
> He's getting help. He just turned 14, but he's my baby.




Hey Ellen, Just thought I would let you know that we will keep Zac in our thoughts. That 14 year old age is tough with summer coming. To young to get a job to busy himself that way, to old for a babysitter and too much time on their hands. Do you have the same summer schedule as he has? Try to keep him busy. You will probably have to rein in his out of the house time with checking in every hour or so. I am sure you have talked to him about the value of trust and how once it is lost it is very costly to get it back but worth the price. Remind him that he is going to want his license and your ability to trust him now will weigh in on him getting his license latter. Hang tough mom.  ((Hugs))


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## Zac495 (Apr 27, 2009)

swift said:


> Hey Ellen, Just thought I would let you know that we will keep Zac in our thoughts. That 14 year old age is tough with summer coming. To young to get a job to busy himself that way, to old for a babysitter and too much time on their hands. Do you have the same summer schedule as he has? Try to keep him busy. You will probably have to rein in his out of the house time with checking in every hour or so. I am sure you have talked to him about the value of trust and how once it is lost it is very costly to get it back but worth the price. Remind him that he is going to want his license and your ability to trust him now will weigh in on him getting his license latter. Hang tough mom.  ((Hugs))



Thank you (and thanks for the pm's). I'm taking the family to Hawaii for 2 weeks and Williamsburg for one. That's 3. I'm a teacher, so I have lots of time for him this summer. He will go to therapy 3 times per week for 2 hours per day for awhile. 

Yes - it can happen to any family - a good family too. I think we're a good family - we're not perfect.

No matter WHAT you teach them - things can go wrong.
Thanks tug family!


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## pointsjunkie (Apr 27, 2009)

those of you who are going  through this, your strength is amazing. I will keep you all in my thoughts and will continue to count my blessings.

barbra


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## bogey21 (Apr 27, 2009)

We did three things.  First, kept the wife at home to keep track of the kids and their friends; this was not easy as she wanted to continue working.  Second, we moved both kids out of the public school system after 5th grade and sent them to a private Christial School.  Third, we attended and participated in every school activity.

They are now 31 and 30 so I guess this worked or maybe we just got lucky!

George


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## Rose Pink (Apr 27, 2009)

I admit to not reading all the posts on this thread but it appears to me that if you make your teens read and study the buttered bread/cat system they may realize what happens to a brain that has abused too many substances.


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## taffy19 (Apr 27, 2009)

Rose Pink said:


> I admit to not reading all the posts on this thread but it appears to me that if you make your teens read and study the buttered bread/cat system they may realize what happens to a brain that has abused too many substances.


I had no idea what you meant with the buttered bread/cat system study so I looked it up. Quite interesting, by the way, how cats manage.

We have no kids but I like to read how people cope with teenagers, drugs and alcohol and realize how hard it is to bring them up today in comparison to yesteryear (our era) with so much more available to them today.

Ellen, this must have been very hard for you to share with us but from the photo albums I have looked at over time, you are a beautiful, loving family. Whatever happened to your son, I hope that the person, who got him involved in this, will end up in jail so he can't do it to others again. A cyber 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and lots of strength.

Please, post a follow-up.


Zac495 said:


> Thank you (and thanks for the pm's). I'm taking the family to Hawaii for 2 weeks and Williamsburg for one. That's 3. I'm a teacher, so I have lots of time for him this summer. He will go to therapy 3 times per week for 2 hours per day for awhile.
> 
> Yes - it can happen to any family - a good family too. *I think we're a good family* - we're not perfect.
> 
> ...


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## Zac495 (Apr 27, 2009)

iconnections said:


> I had no idea what you meant with the buttered bread/cat system study so I looked it up. Quite interesting, by the way, how cats manage.
> 
> We have no kids but I like to read how people cope with teenagers, drugs and alcohol and realize how hard it is to bring them up today in comparison to yesteryear (our era) with so much more available to them today.
> 
> ...




THANKS!!!!! I sent you a pm - but you are over your limit and need to clean out your box, you popular person.


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## moonstone (Apr 27, 2009)

Many years ago my sister attempted suicide in a severe depression and ended up in the psych ward of the local hospital. My kids were about 7,9 & 11 yrs at the time and I took them into the hospital to visit my sister. She & another man were the only ones in the unit there due to depression, the rest were there because their brains were 'fried' from drug overuse. I explained with the nurses help why the other people (many in their 20's) were there. My kids watched in amazement & horror as my sisters room-mate stared at a toothbrush & tried to figure out what it was for for a good 20 mins. I stressed to the kids that they could end up that way from trying drugs just 1 time. They are now 25,23 & almost 21 and they've never tried (they say -& I believe) drugs.

Similarly I took them with me when i took my MIL to her cancer check-ups at the cancer center so the kids could see people struggling to breath even on oxygen and others with parts of their face missing from cancer surgeries. All 3 kids dont smoke and dispise the smell and sight of anyone smoking.

On many occasions I've heard the kids telling their friends about somebody they'd seen in the hospital suffering from the effects of drugs or smoking so it must have made an impression on them!
~Diane


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## Mosca (Apr 27, 2009)

I read this whole thing, and I think we have had two keys.

The first one is, my wife didn't work, except one or two days a week, and on those days her sister watched our daughter; in other words, no day care.

Second, good friends; both the parents and the kids. 

And of course there is luck. Or to shade the word a little, serendipity. We're lucky a boy didn't move in next door who she took a shine to and who was into that stuff, or that her friends didn't start experimenting. 

My wife and I aren't partyers; we only attend maybe one a year, if that, and we never throw one for other than family. DW doesn't drink at all, and I drink no more than one beer, maybe once a month. So there's no example of mind altering substances associated with good times. But I think that is just a minor point; the first two are more important, and the third is that the world cooperated.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 27, 2009)

moonstone said:


> Many years ago my sister attempted suicide in a severe depression and ended up in the psych ward of the local hospital. My kids were about 7,9 & 11 yrs at the time and I took them into the hospital to visit my sister. She & another man were the only ones in the unit there due to depression, the rest were there because their brains were 'fried' from drug overuse. I explained with the nurses help why the other people (many in their 20's) were there. My kids watched in amazement & horror as my sisters room-mate stared at a toothbrush & tried to figure out what it was for for a good 20 mins. I stressed to the kids that they could end up that way from trying drugs just 1 time. They are now 25,23 & almost 21 and they've never tried (they say -& I believe) drugs.
> 
> Similarly I took them with me when i took my MIL to her cancer check-ups at the cancer center so the kids could see people struggling to breath even on oxygen and others with parts of their face missing from cancer surgeries. All 3 kids dont smoke and dispise the smell and sight of anyone smoking.
> 
> ...



While I agree with the theory that a "visual aid" will leave a lasting impression and thus, can be an effective teaching aid, I have a problem with the lack of respect that was afforded to the patients that you used as visual aids.  Drug dependency, depression, alcoholism, cancer ... all are medical conditions that deserve compassion and empathy rather than fear and derision.

(This thread contains so much humanity and goodwill that I really struggled with whether to put this post here or keep quiet.  I'm sorry if it offends anyone reading.)


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## pjrose (Apr 27, 2009)

We used day care and we are a dual-earner couple.  

Regarding day care, we had a wonderful nearly-new facility at a college, and believe that the kids benefitted intellectually and socially from being in that very positive and stimulating environment; home would have been more boring and I would not have had the energy or creativity.  

Concerning work, we chose careers with considerable time flexibility, so there is always a parent home after school, and often a parent to pick up kids at school.  In fact we are often able to structure our work schedules so that there can always be a parent home when a child is ill.  We almost always go to parent teacher conferences etc, and on the rare occasion when we can't, we communicate with the teachers via email.  

We know our kids' friends, most of the friends' parents, teachers, etc.  The kids don't go to anyone's house unless we know the parents and approve.  (Even so, once when DD was quite young she saw X rated vids at someone's house  and also, at the same house but on a different occasion, an older child threatened her and her friend with a BB gun   - needless to say, once we found out she never went to that house again.  As a teen she went to a cast party at someone's house with the parents home, and she and her friend telephoned for a ride b/c the party was getting out of hand  )

We volunteered with school, band, scouts, etc. quite a bit.  Not as much as some, but we were visible.  We are available for homework help.  We keep an eye on grades.  Computer and TV are in a public area of the house, we do not allow content we consider inappropriate (we found out recently that cable TV providers have to remove channels upon request - so MTV and a few others are being axed!), and the cell plan has time and message limits, certain numbers are blocked, and emailing photos or videos is blocked.  

Nonetheless, DD has gotten in occasional trouble - not with drugs, but there have been problems.  She has poor judgment and is impulsive and has made some poor choices.  There are some medical issues, and with counseling + meds + great support at school + maturity + parental involvement + clearly specified consequences + an incentive she chose for not getting in trouble any more (tattoo - see other thread) she's been doing great lately.  She now seems to recognize that having protective (some would say overprotective) parents is to her benefit.  She used to say she'd let HER kids do anything they wanted; now she notices and comments on those who get in trouble (in part) because they do whatever they want  .  

So.....to echo the others, *parental involvement*, including keeping the kids busy with appropriate activities, know their friends, talk to your kids, model good examples.  Despite all of the above I know that kids do still make bad choices - catch them if they fall, enforce the consequences but still support them in learning from their errors and making better choices in the future.  

If you know they are more susceptible to peer pressure, have immature judgment, etc, then you need to be extra involved and vigilant.  It's a lot of work, and there are no guarantees.  Unfortunately I won't know for another 10 or so years if I've succeeded regarding OP's question.  By then DD will no longer be a kid, but I hope my many years of involvement will have helped her to make good choices.


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## swift (Apr 27, 2009)

Ellen,

The college programs are worth looking into if you can fit them into your summer travels.

Here is what Sonoma State U.C. is offering for kids going into 6th-8th grades.

This program provides students with the skills and strategies to read faster, tackle difficult material with confidence, get better grades, and enjoy reading more.

Students who take this program:

•Double reading speed
•Increase comprehension one to two grade levels
•Learn to study textbooks, take notes & prepare for tests
•Build vocabulary
•Become more absorbed in books
The program meets once a week over a 5-week period. Tuition is $299, less than half the cost of similar programs.


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## susan1738 (Apr 27, 2009)

*PRAY!*

PRAY a LOT!

I started praying that they would stay drug-free when they were born, and haven't stopped!  

So many of the other "tricks of the trade" that other tuggers have mentioned are what we do too.  We always find out where the kids are going and speak with the parent of the other teen before they can "go spend the night" somewhere.  Our 16 year old tried to circumvent that system a few weeks ago, saying they didn't have a phone, (yeah, right!), but we just held our ground.  If I can't talk to the parent, you can't go.  That's all there is to it.  We, too, like to have all the kids come to OUR HOUSE!  I teach at the school where my kids go, so I know the kids they are hanging out with.  

But mostly, I think getting my kids involved with the church and teaching them to lean on God, rather than drugs, has been the biggest influence!


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## Twinkstarr (Apr 27, 2009)

swift said:


> Ellen,
> 
> The college programs are worth looking into if you can fit them into your summer travels.
> 
> ...



We have that program at University Of Toledo, just got the fliers last week(same wording and price). Both my kids did the program a few yrs ago, I was not too impressed with it, especially for my then 4th grader. It seems more geared for a struggling student than one who is at grade level and wants to improve.


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## happymum (Apr 28, 2009)

This has been a very informative and interesting thread. Thanks to all who have shared and a special hug  to those whose children are struggling.


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## isisdave (Apr 28, 2009)

I'd like to add that attention and worry about the "teen" years needs to start earlier.  If you wait until high school, you're already behind the power curve because it's middle school that is the greater threat.

My DW the family counselor has long noted that most addictions started with experimentation in 7th or 8th grade. Kids of this age, right out of elementary school, are used to being supervised closely and protected at home and school. Suddenly they have seven teachers who don't know them instead of one who does; four hundred new friends, not all of whom have anyone's good interests at heart; much more freedom and unsupervised time; and a boatload of hormones. THIS is the time when you need to watch them and their friends closely, and steer them in the right direction.

I really believe that kids' brains are wired at the factory, and that they're about 80% finished upon delivery.  By this I mean that we didn't shape our son by our parenting style as much as we found a style that matched his personality.  So others will find their kids have different needs (we only have one, so I wonder how we would have handled two who needed different styles).

Most of the earlier posters covered anything else I might have to offer, except to mention a couple of things which might work for others too:

When talking with your teen, you don't actually have to respond to everything (s)he says.  For an example, an announcement that one of his friends is in some kind of trouble can often be met with an "Oh?" or even a raised eyebrow, and open the door to a conversation or even a revelation of thinking more mature than you had imagined possible. Certainly don't challenge immature statements when unnecessary ... they can't help these, and strong responses often have the opposite effect to what you intend.

From a fairly early age, we told our son we really had only two basic rules: 1: Be safe; 2: Don't be annoying.  These actually cover a huge territory, covering most personal behavior and interpersonal relationships. As he grew, we would point out how behaviors were either safe or not, and when necessary a gentle reminder of "rule two" would usually serve as a limit on exuberance, self-centeredness, whining, etc.

We also reminded him that we were the most enthusiastic cheerleaders he would ever have in his life, and that we were totally on his side even when it seemed we weren't. We explained that our job was basically to prevent him from self-destructing while he grew up and learned about the world with help from us and others, and by making lots of mistakes. We told him he'd have all the independence he could manage, and maybe just a little bit more. We were amazed to find that he actually listened to these speeches and remembered them.

We let him see our humanity by admitting our own mistakes when he noticed them. We try never to use blame; we think it's a backward-looking emotion, and you get much better results from forward-looking activities like planning, education, and careful choosing.

It is certainly quite a ride, and I still enjoy it every day.  And I am impressed by the thought and love behind most of the postings in this thread.


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## Zac495 (Apr 28, 2009)

He had his first counseling appointment yesterday which went very well. He'll be allowed (not forced) to do drug screening each time to prove to me he isn't using (something he REALLY wants to convince me of - he's devastated that he lost my trust). He also wants his stuff back (like the Ipod).

The counselor gave me good advice too. He said stick to today only. If Zac wants something and I want to say no - say no. Don't say, "No - remember last week?" Just say no.

We're good parents (I think), though we do both work. Do I think staying home with the kids is better? I don't know - probably not for me. Zac was in a house (not daycare) until he went to school with 3 other kids and a wonderful lady who watched him. Zoe (unfortunately) was in an orphanage in China until 3 - then attended a tiny church pre-school (we needed language help). I love teaching. I can't imagine my life without my job. I don't know if that hurt my kids - I hope not. I think many working families have great kids, some with stay at home parent have problems. Not sure that's THE ANSWER. Regardless, it's too late now - can't make them 5 again and stay home. 

I'm a teacher and have summers with the kids - I travel extensively with them and DH. I am very involved in Zoe's cheerleading. Unfortunately, Zac hasn't found anything of interest- he's an intellectual - he took the SAT's this year (8th grade) and did better than 75% of graduating HS seniors - so you can see - bright kid. He did try to get on the yearbook or newspaper at school 2 years in a row. The school "picked out of a hat." He was never picked. This made me angry - especially year 2 when the school KNEW he needed something- because other kids have 2, 3 activities and Zac had zero.

Zac went to a John Hopkins University Camp last summer. He liked it, but doesn't want to do it again. He wants a job. I don't love the idea of him having cash right now. We'll be too busy traveling this summer anyway.

I'm considering private schools for next year, though I'm not going the Christian route - though I appreciate the prayers. Don't misunderstand - we attend church. I believe in God (though I'm a Jewish, Christian, Unitarian, Confused Believer). We haven't attended regularly enough, and I don't think Christian school is the answer - at least not at this point.

Thank you so much for the pm's. I feel so supported. 

I hope this thread helps other parents. Remember - parental controls on the XBOX and the computer! I already had them on the computer - download spector pro (google it). You will be able to see every IM, get passwords, etc. I am not suggesting that spying on your kids is the right thing to do. My kids KNOW we have this on the computer - and they know I will rarely check it. But they know. It's for their protection (just as I wouldn't dump them in the mall for 3 hours alone - why would I leave them to the whole world which is what the web is). I just didn't know about XBox live...


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## pjrose (Apr 28, 2009)

isisdave said:


> I'd like to add that attention and worry about the "teen" years needs to start earlier.  If you wait until high school, you're already behind the power curve because it's middle school that is the greater threat.



Absolutely!



isisdave said:


> I really believe that kids' brains are wired at the factory, and that they're about 80% finished upon delivery.  By this I mean that we didn't shape our son by our parenting style as much as we found a style that matched his personality.  So others will find their kids have different needs (we only have one, so I wonder how we would have handled two who needed different styles).



I did that, but I don't think I realized it until reading your post;.




isisdave said:


> When talking with your teen, you don't actually have to respond to everything (s)he says.  For an example, an announcement that one of his friends is in some kind of trouble can often be met with an "Oh?" or even a raised eyebrow, and open the door to a conversation or even a revelation of thinking more mature than you had imagined possible. Certainly don't challenge immature statements when unnecessary ... they can't help these, and strong responses often have the opposite effect to what you intend.



This is a wonderful technique.  I learned a lot from a book "How to Talk so your Children will Listen, and How to Listen so your children will Talk".  Acknowledge "Oh?," validate "That really bothered you,"  "You're pretty upset about that,"  and listen, rather than talking/lecturing yourself.  Ask questions that get them to think and that lead to responses other than yes/no - "Hmmm, how else could you have handled that?  What do you think might work?"  It's hard, but it works.  



isisdave said:


> From a fairly early age, we told our son we really had only two basic rules: 1: Be safe; 2: Don't be annoying.  . . .
> We also reminded him that we were the most enthusiastic cheerleaders he would ever have in his life, and that we were totally on his side even when it seemed we weren't. We explained that our job was basically to prevent him from self-destructing



Where were you when my kids were littler?

Great post!


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## swift (Apr 28, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> The counselor gave me good advice too. He said stick to today only. If Zac wants something and I want to say no - say no. Don't say, "No - remember last week?" Just say no.



Great advice. It is important as you go through this to build his self esteem as well. Constantly referring to the past only tears it down.




Zac495 said:


> We're good parents (I think), though we do both work. Do I think staying home with the kids is better? I don't know - probably not for me. Zac was in a house (not daycare) until he went to school with 3 other kids and a wonderful lady who watched him. Zoe (unfortunately) was in an orphanage in China until 3 - then attended a tiny church pre-school (we needed language help). I love teaching. I can't imagine my life without my job. I don't know if that hurt my kids - I hope not. I think many working families have great kids, some with stay at home parent have problems. Not sure that's THE ANSWER. Regardless, it's too late now - can't make them 5 again and stay home.
> 
> ...



I think you are wonderful parents Ellen. {{{Hugs}}} When my family spent the day with yours we had a wonderful time. Things happen even to the best. I have one child that does beautifully in school and another child that I have to drag through school. Each year that he doesn't have to do summer school is a celebration. I am the same parent. Just different kid. To often, especially in the school system, things are automatically assumed that is the parents fault. Gossipers don't realize the many hoops that we have jumped through for our kids and yet still it comes down to their choice to make good decisions or unfortunately bad ones.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 28, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> ... The counselor gave me good advice too. He said stick to today only. If Zac wants something and I want to say no - say no. Don't say, "No - remember last week?" Just say no.



This works another way, too, for both parents and teens.  Teens have a skewed perspective and live for the moment; their focus is on everything they're thinking and feeling and doing NOW, and they're sometimes not able to see beyond to the consequences.  Parents can't help but get caught up with that mindset.  It's tough to remember, especially when you're working through a rough patch, that, "this too shall pass."   



Zac495 said:


> We're good parents (I think), though we do both work.



Isn't it terrible that we put each other in competition this way?  Whether we are working or stay-at-home parents, the good parents are the ones who don't leave their children to flounder alone.  Nobody can be correct 100% of the time, and just as a teen's "mistakes" do not make him/her a bad teen, a parent's "mistake" does not make him/her a bad parent.  Ellen, this is new territory for you and you are allowed to ask for help which is what you've done both here and from professionals.  You're good parents.  



Zac495 said:


> I hope this thread helps other parents.



It's helping me to learn new communication ways, and mine are beyond the teen stage into their early 20's but still living at home.  The only difference, really, is that we're making our way through a different set of issues.


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## bogey21 (Apr 28, 2009)

Original poster comment:
*I'm considering private schools for next year, though I'm not going the Christian route* 

We went the Christian School route because it was way cheaper and all we could handle financially.  Having said that, I believe both our Son and Daughter benefited from the environment and the friends they made there.

I don't know if all private schools are the same but at the school my Son and Daughter attended students had to stay straight or they were gone.  If they went way off the reservation, they were expelled immediately.  Technically, every student had to reapply for admission each year.  This allowed the school to deny readmission to those whose conduct was outside the school's parameters but not bad enough for immediate expulsion. 

My bottom line comparing the Christian Schools to more traditional private schools is that they are cheaper; less demanding academically; and more focused on behavior.

George


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## Zac495 (Apr 30, 2009)

*Update and the police*

Let me preface by saying that I am a liberal. I have always believed in the police and our judicial system.

Next - my son. He is going to counseling 3X per week for 2 hours per day. We really like the counselor. He gets drug tested each week. I told him if he's clean in one month, he can have ONE privilege back (out of about 10 I took from him). He will continue this through the summer (he gets our vacation to Hawaii off). I want him to be terrified of the consequences of doing this again. He's also been talking a lot about fear of the guy and will he seek revenge - come back and kill him? He will be a good citizen, and a strong man - and will testify, but he's scared.

Police - They say someone is coming out for Zac to look at a picture line up. No call. day after day we wait. Nothing. I call them. No return call.

Finally the detective called me last night. He told me that he was sorry it took so long, but he has more important cases so he just can't devote time to me right now. WHAT? He said If he didn't have a rape case and 30 car crashes, he'd be on it. But for now, they're helping a young cop learn what to do and he should call me. He apologized for that cop telling me the wrong things. I told him in no uncertain terms that I expect to be kept up to date. I know the law doesn't work like TV, but geez.

He said there will be problems with the case - like no physical evidence (right - it was consumed!). He said the fact that my son drank alcohol afterwards will allow the defense to say ... (not sure). I said we have a text from the guy telling the boys to drink to kick in the effects. He said that didn't matter - I just didn't understand the law.

He said he probably will be able to get child endangerement - maybe a misdemeanor - nothing big. HUH???? Oh - they know who the suspect is - he has a criminal history! 

I called the head of the department and left a message. He's supposed to be in today. I'm extremely frustrated. Zac is scared.

Any ideas from any police officers or lawyers or prosecutors out there? This is not meant to be bash the judicial system post or thread - I still believe in our system - I want to see it work for Zac.

I'm glad many of you are looking for parental controls on your xbox's and computers.


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## Talent312 (Apr 30, 2009)

I was a criminal defense attorney in former lifetime and can tell you this: It sounds like this detective is trying to tell you that, in RL, a charge of delivery or distribution would not hold up in court, and he's right.  Any sensible prosecutor would likely decline to file such charges. They would clearly need more.  But that's not to say that they could not get it, if they made an effort.

These cases are typically made thru the use of an informant or undercover cop who is wired, searched, sent to a scene, makes a transaction, turns over what they got, searched again, and under continuous observation, with video or audio recording.  If the transaction occurs in a home, a search warrant may be used to recover more.  The substance is then sent to a lab for analysis and an expert (not your son) testifies that he has experience in idenfying such subtances, received a sample (in the chain of evidence) to identify, and was able to identify it as such.

HOWEVER, the cops will usually not go to the trouble unless their target is a big fish.  Unless they think they could take down a major player, they'll just go with what they've got... which in this case, isn't enuff... so far.


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## Redrosesix (Apr 30, 2009)

Sounds like the trip will be good for all of you -- will be nice that he can live without fear while you're away, will give you a chance to reconnect as a family.

If the case goes nowhere, what will you do to reduce his fears?  Would you consider boarding school, or maybe martial arts (I had a friend who pursued martial arts because of bullying -- although he became so good at it, nobody would ever dare cross him again, he always said the most important part of it was the mental discipline -- it made him a different person altogether)


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## pgnewarkboy (Apr 30, 2009)

I have been both a prosecutor and a defense attorney. As a prosecutor, I decided what the charges were, what the evidence was, and how to proceed with the case. The cop does not decide any of these things.  The prosecutor does. I suggest that you contact the prosecutor's office asap to discuss the case.

IMHO the cop crossed the bounds telling you what he thinks the defense will do.  It is not his concern and it is not part of his job.  I don't care how much experience he has or says he has.     Other than that I can't comment because I don't know the facts of the case.


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## Tia (Apr 30, 2009)

So frustrating! All the while the creep is out doing this to other young kids no doubt about it.


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## Talent312 (Apr 30, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> I suggest that you contact the prosecutor's office asap to discuss the case.




In my neck of the woods, prosecutors usually rely on cases made for them by law enforcement agencies.  They rarely "direct file" from a citizen-complaint without a thorough police investigation identifying the witnesses and evidence. If they talk to a complainant at all, its to tell them to "let the police do their job, and when they send me a report, I'll review it."


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## mepiccolo (May 1, 2009)

I wanted to add one more beware from personal experience:  beware who your daughter/son dates.  I had very strict parents, a stay-at-home mother and was a really "good" girl.  Then I met my first boyfriend at 14 and the following 2 years were not on the track I had been on before I met him:  pot, ditching school and quitting cheerleading and..., well breaking up with him my sophomore year in high school was the smartest thing I did but it could have ended up a lot worse.  Luckily I was able to go back to being a "good" girl but I did not have an addictive personality.  Good luck to all of you with teenagers!


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## Zac495 (May 1, 2009)

Only problem - the guy is still texting Zac - can I get a restraining order?


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## pjrose (May 1, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> Only problem - the guy is still texting Zac - can I get a restraining order?



I don't know if you can.  I would keep a record of every text - photograph the screen of each one, along with something showing the date.  If the sender is not identified on the same screen, you'll also need to press something to display that.  This is in your possession now, not Zac's, right?  

Are the texts on a cell phone?  You can get the cell phone provider to provide a written record of every text.  It's not straightforward to get this - they may tell you that you need a court order or police request - but it can be done.


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## ctreelmom (May 1, 2009)

Call your cell phone carrier.  We have AT&T and for a small monthly fee, I subscribe to a service called "Smart Limits" that allows me to block numbers from DDs cell and set time limits for use.  For example, during the week, her phone stops working at 11 (but it's set to always accept/make calls from/to my number).  However, the slick ex-boyfriend I blocked figured out how to send IMs to her phone (every phone has an email address and ATT&T can't block those) so your guy may know how to do that.  Or, you could get your son a new number, assuming he won't give it to the person.


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## AwayWeGo (May 1, 2009)

*Straight Talk From A Leading Professional In The Field.*

Read _Getting Tough On Gateway Drugs*:* A Guide For The Family_, by Robert L. Dupont MD. 

Click here for an Internet source offering (used) copies for 75¢ & up (plus shipping). 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Vacation Dude (May 1, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> Only problem - the guy is still texting Zac - can I get a restraining order?



Simple solution ----- cancel this cell phone number account and do not give your kid a new phone, problem solved.

Cell phones, internet use, xbox video games, portable electronic devices, ipods, cable television, myspace, facebook, are privileges that kids take for granted and if abused, they should disappear. Imagine all the money you will save by deleting all these expenses. Luckily, we did not have these things when I was a kid.

Restraining orders are court orders to prevent a person that has threatened another person (you usually need two or more documented occasions) and they usually are used to prevent domestic violence, sexual assault, celebrity stalking, and excessive harassment. Be careful as filing one may agitate the other person.

You might be able to block a certain number from texting you, but that depends on your carrier and cell phone plan.


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## Talent312 (May 1, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> Only problem - the guy is still texting Zac - can I get a restraining order?



If he has been told not to do this, he (thru you) could file a complaint with the police for "harassing telecommunications."  In my state, its only a misdeameanor, but it could get him hauled into court, placed on probation  with a no-contact order.

But that's a time-consuming process.  Calling the phone company and asking them to change his number may be more effective.


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## SueDonJ (May 1, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> Only problem - the guy is still texting Zac - can I get a restraining order?



Even though it seems that the police aren't taking this seriously enough (unbelievable!) I would give that detective a call and ask what, if anything, they can do about the texts.  This should be one more reason in a long list for the police to give this more of a priority than they are.  I would think the very least they can do, is contact the guy to remind him that Zac is a minor whose parents want all contact to stop.

Sure, you can probably take care of it by contacting the cell phone carrier, but why should you have to?  If taking Zac's phone away or limiting his use is a consequence of his actions that you've imposed, that's fine.  But it's the actions of this guy that you want to stop, and eventually Zac will earn unrestricted phone use again.  I think it's completely reasonable that you don't want this guy to contact Zac in any manner, any time.   

How frightening this all must be for your family, Ellen.


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## Zac495 (May 1, 2009)

He doesn't have the cell - he lost all privileges - he only gets a cell phone on the days he has to take a bus to the counselor so he can reach me if necessary - and he gets his sister's phone (she doesn't like that one). But I see the texts. They're not bothering him, as he doesn't have the right to use it, but the fact that the guy knows where we live and still is trying to reach us...

I'd love to answer the text saying my parents aren't home - can you bring some more over? But I know that's entrappment and a stupid idea.


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## SueDonJ (May 1, 2009)

Vacation Dude said:


> Simple solution ----- cancel this cell phone number account and do not give your kid a new phone, problem solved.
> 
> Cell phones, internet use, xbox video games, portable electronic devices, ipods, cable television, myspace, facebook, are privileges that kids take for granted and if abused, they should disappear. Imagine all the money you will save by deleting all these expenses. Luckily, we did not have these things when I was a kid. ...



It's a delicate balancing act, though.  Sure, at our age WE think that life is perfectly fine without being electronically dialed-in to all our friends every minute of the day, but that's not reality for kids today.  It's too simple to just take everything away and say, "hey, we lived without all that crap, so can you!"  Every generation is different in some ways than the one before, and for us and our kids the biggest difference is the electronics!  Sure, limits can be imposed and good old-fashioned manners having to do with communication can be taught, but in these days the kid without all that crap sticks out like a sore thumb.  Why would anybody force their own kid to be that different from the rest of his/her society?  That'd be mean.

I do agree, though, that there isn't anything wrong with taking the items away for a reasonable time if the rules are broken.


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## Vacation Dude (May 1, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> But I see the texts. They're not bothering him, as he doesn't have the right to use it, but the fact that the guy knows where we live and still is trying to reach us.



Oh, I thought he was still getting them.

Simply Solution #1 still works - delete that number and get a new number. Tell your carrier that you are getting too much spam with your old number.



SueDonJ said:


> Why would anybody force their own kid to be that different from the rest of his/her society?  That'd be mean.



So do you considered it to be child abuse for parents that live in Beverley Hills if the do NOT buy their kids a new BMW for his/her 16th birthday?

Same thing with phones, online video games, etc. it is just a matter of perspective.


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## Tia (May 1, 2009)

Ya have to wonder if the creep won't try to find you son somewhere when he doesn't reply to the phone text....


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## SueDonJ (May 1, 2009)

Vacation Dude said:


> Oh, I thought he was still getting them.
> 
> Simply Solution #1 still works - delete that number and get a new number. Tell your carrier that you are getting too much spam with your old number.
> 
> ...



Geeze, I'm glad my kids didn't grow up in Beverly Hills!  

No, I don't consider it abuse if kids don't have all the crap, but I do think that it makes a kid's life harder if he doesn't conform to his own society.  A parent is supposed to help his/her children join the society, not force them to be on the outside looking in.  I can't imagine giving a kid a BMW at 16, but I know that we made sure our kids had a means of transportation and for them, that meant a car.  As a teenager I got around on my bike and with the T, but those options simply didn't work in my kids' or their friends' lives when they were teens.  As a teenager I also had to wait in line with my 10 brothers and sisters for my 15 minutes of time on the one telephone in the house - those may as well have been prehistoric times compared to today (but it sure feels like it was just yesterday.  )

Cellphones are here to stay and almost everyone uses/abuses them, not just teenagers - that's just the way it is and the way it's going to be forever, it appears.  Same thing with video gaming, facebook.com, etc.  It's astounding the speed with which all these things have become fixtures, isn't it?  Cell phones, especially - look around, they are everywhere!  They are annoying and intrusive, and we have no one to blame for that but ourselves.

Your solution for Ellen is the practical one and should probably be done before anything else.  I just think that Zac shouldn't have to pay for his mistake by being forced to live _all_ of his teenage years on the outside looking in, and I think the police should be able to do more to the guy who actually is the problem.


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## Rose Pink (May 1, 2009)

*The Gift of Fear*

Has anyone recommended this book yet? It's been several years since I read it but it has some good advice.
https://www.gavindebecker.com/books-gof.cfm
I borrowed it from my local library.


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## pjrose (May 1, 2009)

I would not change the number or delete the plan.  In an alteration to my post of keeping track of the texts, I'd do something a bit different....*give the phone to the prosecutor or to your attorney.  Let him/her see what's happening and have the evidence of same. * 

I heartily recommend ATT's Smart Limits; we use it for DD's phone, and it has made a HUGE difference in her stress and ours, as well as her behavior.  We've blocked several former boyfriends who were sending highly inappropriate messages (thereby getting rid of the stress and also reducing the likelihood of her following through with the behavior they were suggesting), limited use to reasonable hours (now she goes to sleep at a reasonable time and isn't using it during school), set the # of messages allowed per month, totally blocked sending/receiving photos or any kind of multimedia (no possibility of "sexting").    We could have just taken it away, but I like that she can contact us if necessary, and I like her to be able to talk to friends (with limits).


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## Zac495 (May 1, 2009)

I like the idea of blocking all video and pictures - good one!
Zac is learning a lesson by losing all his things for a good long time - but not forever. He was tricked by an adult - but that doesn't mean he did the right thing - and as a parent, it's my job to :
1. Keep him safe (darn the justice system that isn't helping me)
2. Teach him right from wrong - he can't use drugs - period - end of story - done. 

But he'll get his things back eventually. He didn't shoot someone. He didn't sell drugs to little kids. He is taking a drug test weekly. He knows if he's clean for a month, he gets back one thing. ONE. Then maybe another in another month.

He will continue to go to counseling SIX HOURS per week (drug counseling). Next year he will be required to do after school activities. This is a huge wake up call for him and for our family - and I'll be darned if I let the big bad wolf (the world) eat him alive without a huge fight from me. But I also will show him compassion and love - and that compassion doesn't mean that I am trying to be his friend. But I am his mother -his #1 fan in the world -and he will always, always know that.

I am ever so grateful for this thread and your comments.


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## Talent312 (May 1, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> I'd love to answer the text saying my parents aren't home - can you bring some more over? But I know that's entrappment and a stupid idea.



Actually, its not "entrapment" as the law defines it.  That's why cops use snitches and undercover agents to "arrange" drug-buys all the time.  The courts say that all you'd be doing is detecting someone's criminal propensity.  But, no, its not a good idea to set the guy up.

One of my more humorous cases (as they go) I handled (moons ago)...
A fellow agreed to sell five pounds of marijuana to an undercover cop for $10,000.  They meet in a field, surrounded by surveilance.  Seller tells the cop that the stuff is a plastic bag over by a tree, and points at the tree.  Cop hands the money to the seller.  As seller drives away with the money, cop opens a bag full of weeds and mowed grass.  Seller later pleas to "Grand Theft."


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## Kay H (May 1, 2009)

Zac,
I think you are very brave to post this personal family situation on this BBS.  I think you are doing an excellent job of discouraging your son from repeating  this behavior. I hope for all of you that you are successful.  I'm very grateful that I didn't have to deal with this when I was raising my sons.


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## Tia (May 2, 2009)

One thing we started to do when the youngest was in 8th grade was to put all cell phones on the chargers in the kitchen by 10pm every night. Late night text/calls coming in...were intercepted by the first person up in the am and deleted, if I chose :annoyed:


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## davhu1 (May 2, 2009)

Ellen,

Sorry to hear the problem Zac is having.  Not an expert in this but the way I see to keep kids off drugs is that he needs to understands the consequences and is willing to stop.  Second is to remove him from the environment that is enticing him to use drugs before its too late.  Drug dealer will not stop trying to sell.

We are facing a big drug problem in my kids high school and in our community.  Several students and former students have been arrested and some already have been convicted.  About a year ago there were 3 deaths resulted from drug overdose. That when the police and the FBI started the investigation (yes, took 3 deaths before they really acted).  All these kids are raise from good families, mom stayed home, etc and no one know why they would use or deal drugs.  These kids also do not need the money.  The father of a girl who died have considered moving out of states and wish he had.  The girl has overdosed before, been in counseling and rehab program and they thought the problems was behind them.  She actually overdosed days after returning from another rehab program.  The drug that kill her was provided by the boyfriend.  The night of her death, the boyfriend's mother saw them leaving the house together and stopped the boy from leaving the house.  He still managed to provide the girlfriend with the drug thru a friend.  The boyfriend is charged with distribution of drug that resulted in death and most likely to spend a long time in prison.  The case come going to court soon.  The sad part is the boyfriend is our neighbor and we knew him since he was six years old.  We also knew of the girlfriend and she had classes with my son in school.  

When kids get into drugs, they can no longer be trusted unless proven otherwise.  Err with caution, do not believe everything he says as he may just want to say what you want to hear, but do not need to confront him.  Do not give him more money than he needs and be observant about things that may missing around the house.   

As for the cell phone.  Verizon allows us to block text message.  My son is in high school and I have text message blocked.  He has asked for it several times and I told him to show me a NEED which he has not.

Is Zac into intrument music?  Check into Csehy summer school of music, just north of Philly.  Our kids went there for a couple of summers and not very expensive. Even if he does not play an instrument, he can do choir.  www.scehy.com  It is sponsored by Christian church but not strictly religious.

I think the concern now is that the drug dealer will continue to seek him out for a sale even if you cut off text message or phone use.  If all possible, have some one accompany him where ever he goes until the dealer back off.

Hope for the best.


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## MelBay (May 2, 2009)

I just saw this thread and have to chime in.  We didn't manage to keep our kids off drugs.  Before I go on, they are both in engineering school, and our oldest graduates in 14 days & has a very good job offer awaiting him, even in this economy.  

They both went through 13 years of Catholic School, and while they got a good education in the classroom, they were far street-smarter than we'd anticipated by the time all was said & done.  When our oldest left for college, hubby was poking around in his work room and moved a board, which caused about 25 empty liquor bottles to fall out of the rafters.  We were pretty sure they were drinking in high school, but didn't have proof so couldn't do much but threaten & watch closely.  They both used pot in high school and luckily never got in serious trouble over it.  I believe they've both grown out of that phase and now would rather play beer pong and other delightful drinking games.

That said, I do have a philosophy many will disagree with.  Many kids simply MUST sew their wild oats.  Hubby did, and boy I did, and I guess I'd rather they did it under my roof than after they got to college.  They both have friends whose parents literally sat on them all through high school, and all those friends have since bombed out of college because they went wild once they got away from the folks.  Mine were able to manage their partying and studying, which I don't think is an easy thing to master.

They are both in a frat now and I know they have both done serious drinking there.  Do I like it?  No, but they both get good grades and are taking a very touch curriculum and they are boys for heaven's sake.  I'm not a goody two shoes, but I also didn't buy for them when they were minors.   

There are no easy answers and I spent many many sleepless nights and cried my eyes out for days on end, wondering where I went wrong.  I suspect when I see DS #1 walk down that aisle and hear Pomp & Circumstance in a couple of weeks, all the bad memories will be erased.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.


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## Tia (May 3, 2009)

Guess it is one of those things can go either way. A doctor I know just said 2 weeks ago how their 22 yo has told them he was now glad they had been so strict as he has now seen what has happened to some of his friends who did not have such strict parents guiding them.


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## luvsvacation22 (May 3, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> I like the idea of blocking all video and pictures - good one!
> Zac is learning a lesson by losing all his things for a good long time - but not forever. He was tricked by an adult - but that doesn't mean he did the right thing - and as a parent, it's my job to :
> 1. Keep him safe (darn the justice system that isn't helping me)
> 2. Teach him right from wrong - he can't use drugs - period - end of story - done.
> ...



I PM you before I got to read the entire thread. I think you are doing all the right things. Right now you have time and parental influence on your side. You are actively fighting to get him on the right track. Don't give up and keep fighting! I am so sorry this has happen to your son.

 Keep strong and don't underestimate the power of prayer!


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## vacationhopeful (May 3, 2009)

Just another suggestion - your extended family?  It is regularly used when I was in my teens and the younger generation in my family are still sent for those 1 to 1 summer visits (with great success for the child).  Aunts, uncles and active grandparents can be prime hosts.  I got a 4 yo one summer who keeps reappearing (5th summer this year) (the youngest visitor); 13 yo last summer(pleading for a repeat visit this summer); 18 yo during Xmas break 16 months ago; 16 yo next month.


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## Zac495 (May 7, 2009)

*Update*

THANKS again to everyone who has written and pm'd me - I was holding onto a thread - so this thread (pun not intended) has helped me tremendously.

An update - the police came Monday. They brought pictures, and Zac correctly ID'd him. The stories between Zac and his friend were a little different - the other young boy (remember Zac had a friend over) said the guy took them out for 1/2 hour where Zac recalls 10 minutes. The other boy said he (the adult) tried to sell them drugs upon return, Zac has no recollection of this. The other boy recalls being told to drink. Zac doesn't. We do have the text from the guy saying they should drink to kick it all in.

The police will mail a list of the charges to the suspect since he has a wife and kid who live in the area - they don't consider him a flight risk. Once he receives the charges, he can choose to come in or they will pick him up. 

As for Zac, he goes to his drug rehab 6 hours per week. He is doing well - not complaining - though I'm sure he'd love to stop. He'd love to have his things back, too, but that's not happening yet. I almost feel a strange sense of relief- that this happened, we're stricter parents suddenly. I'm not questioning that we were always involved, good parents - but we had too much trust at times.

Remember that Xbox live (or anything that connects kids to outsiders) is dangerous. there are parental controls on that game - you can buy the toy for your kids and set it so they can only talk to friends of your choosing. You can watch their internet use. 

We as parents aren't spies or jailers - but we aren't their friends either. We need to be their guardian angels.

Again, thank you, everyone. I'll keep you updated as the court hearings come up - they are guessing late summer.


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## SueDonJ (May 7, 2009)

Ellen, it's good to hear that the police are moving in the right direction going after this guy, and that Zac is not too, too unhappy with the consequences.  I hope the good news keeps happening for all of you.



Zac495 said:


> ... We as parents aren't spies or jailers - but we aren't their friends either. We need to be their guardian angels.



I never understood the need for parents to want their kids to think that trust is a two-way street.  Every teenager uses the constant, "you don't trust me!" to his/her advantage, and many parents back down because of it.  There's plenty of room for compromise between being a CIA operative - watching every move they make and sitting on them to keep them from making a mistake - and making your kids realize that you understand them better than they might think.  I always told mine, "The only thing I can _trust_ you to be is a teenager, and that means I need to be prepared as much as possible for any mistake you might naturally make."   



Zac495 said:


> Again, thank you, everyone. I'll keep you updated as the court hearings come up - they are guessing late summer.



It's nice that this sounding board is here for you, and I appreciate the updates.  Thoughts of Zac and your family cross my mind every so often...


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## Rose Pink (May 7, 2009)

I don't think I'd be overly concerned about the differences in Zac's recall and that of his friend.  Both said the man took them for a ride--whether it was 10 minutes or 30 is of no consequence.  (I think I'm on TUG for 10 minutes and then realize later it's been an hour.)

Identical testimony can indicate collusion.  Minor differences indicate different perspectives of the same incident.


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## Zac495 (May 19, 2009)

*another update*

Thanks for all the pm's, btw. I really appreciate the thoughts - and happy this thread helped others.

The police have a warrant out for the guy's arrest. Apparently they called and called - the guy dodged calls. They finally reached him and he is coming in for an interview. Now the whole thing sounds weird - why not go to his house and cuff him??? But the police explained they want to try to get him to talk first. More to come after that interview..... Stay tuned.

Meanwhile Zac is doing fabulously. He's taken drug tests and is clean as a whistle. He goes to all of his counseling sessions and takes them seriously. He sadly understands that he still doesn't have his ipod, phone, xbox, etc. (He wants them - but he isn't saying it's not fair!)

He decided he wants to go to a computer camp this summer (poor kid only has Hawaii and Williamsburg to look forward to :hysterical: ) . I signed him up for the ID camp (if anyone is interested I'll get you the website). It's run by universities around the country - he'll be at Villanova University. He'll learn to create his own video games (oh goody- just what he needs after the XBOX).

BUT - it wasn't the computer game's fault - and he is excited. And I feel it's going to be great for him because he'll be GOOD AT IT! He'll feel good about himself again. I'm very excited for him.

He is ending the school year as a straight A student! So phew - for TODAY- we're on track.

But I learned - this is never ending.  In many ways our 14 - 17 year olds need a babysitter more than our 6 year olds. Parenting is the hardest job in the world - but so rewarding.

Thanks again for reading my saga. All my love to all Tuggers!


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## Tia (May 19, 2009)

Appreciate the update and glad there is progress being made. Think your right about teenagers needing parents to keep a closer eye then younger children, the danger signs are much more hidden and the danger is outside the home.


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## Rose Pink (May 19, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> In many ways our 14 - 17 year olds need a babysitter more than our 6 year olds. Parenting is the hardest job in the world


 
Just wait until you've got an 86 year old to worry about.   Sometimes being an adult child is the hardest thing.  I'd never had thought that.

Glad to hear your son is doing well.  We all make mistakes and he seems to be learning from his.  Kudos to him and to you!


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## Zac495 (Jun 23, 2009)

*update and a question*

The detectives warranted our phone and got the records proving he texted Zac that night - they are now going for a warrant on the adult's phone. The police did offer to speak to him - but he got a lawyer who declined the interview. No arrest yet - the police want to have a solid connection. They said when they warrant his phone and it shows the texts back to Zac, it'll make it clear that the connection did happen. The police also came over and took a digital picture of the naked pictures on Zac's phone (that the guy sent him). 

The police officer said there should be an arrest once they have that proof. I sure hope we have enough to get him on some charges.

There seems to be no technology that allows us to print the texts - or even save them on a SIM card (well, we can save some of them on SIM, but not the slide show with the girly pictures). Anyone have any ideas there? I took the phone to AT&T - the guy couldn't have been any nicer-  he tried with memory card, etc. No avail.

Zac is doing very well. He continues the drug "rehab" (I always use quotes because he is not a drug addict at all). He continues to take the drug tests and come out clean. Did I tell you that he won STUDENT OF THE YEAR at his school?!! At the awards banquet (and yes, it's a small magnet school - not thousands in a public school - but still...) my mom and I sat there and listened as they talked about this one boy who worked so hard, got distinguished honors every term, worked on all behaviors to the point that he was given a special behavior honor, adored by his teachers, etc etc - and then they said ZAC  and I cried.


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## FlyerBobcat (Jun 23, 2009)

Ellen,

Thanks for the update.....   and CONGRATS to Zac !!!


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## Rose Pink (Jun 23, 2009)

Congratulations to you and Zac on his award.  I enjoyed hearing that this morning!


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## pjrose (Jun 23, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> There seems to be no technology that allows us to print the texts - or even save them on a SIM card (well, we can save some of them on SIM, but not the slide show with the girly pictures). Anyone have any ideas there? I took the phone to AT&T - the guy couldn't have been any nicer-  he tried with memory card, etc. No avail.



Several things that may help:

Re saving and printing the texts and pictures, you should be able to forward them to your email and print from there.  Depending on the phone, it may also take a memory card.  If it doesn't take a memory card, put its SIMM in a phone that does, copy everything to the memory card, then put the card in a card reader on the computer, where it'll be just like a disk drive and you should be able to go from there.

When we had a problem with DD receiving inappropriate texts on an AT&T account, I was told by both the local police and by the AT&T local store mgr (Carlisle PA) that AT&T could produce a copy of all the texts either by request of the police or with a court order.  I believe I may have also called AT&T to confirm this ...I think I had to go through several levels of people before i got someone who said yes, they could.  I was discussing the content of the text messages, not just a listing of the times and numbers (which is obviously just on the bill).  I was told yes, they can retrieve the actual content and produce it for police and/or court order.  I did not follow through as I told the person in question (another student) that I had been in touch with the police and if he EVER contacted DD again i would file charges, and then I blocked his number.  But I was told it can be done.

Also, I've read in articles about "sexting" that supposedly the pictures "are burned into the phone" and that's why police are physically destroying phones of teens caught sexting.  I don't believe the "burned into the phone" bit - but if you do a news search on "sexting" you may come up with some info on this.

Finally, ask a tecchie or geek, not a phone salesperson.  I suggest a new thread here asking the tecchies how to save or forward cell phone texts/pictures, as they may not be reading this particular thread. I will also check with DS when he wakes up (around noon or so).  

PJ


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## senorak (Jun 23, 2009)

Ellen---Thanks for the update....been wondering how things were progressing with the case.
Congrats to Zac on his award!!!  

Deb


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## Tia (Jun 23, 2009)

I thought I read about a teenage girl getting into legal trouble sending nude pic's of herself somewhere, it was considered pornograghy . Contributing to the delinquency of a minor(s), suppling drugs, should fit your case also.

So glad your police are doing their job. This is a much bigger crime than stealing golf balls that our police are busy charging a couple teenagers here with  I heard yesterday, class 5 felony?


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## Zac495 (Jun 23, 2009)

Tia said:


> I thought I read about a teenage girl getting into legal trouble sending nude pic's of herself somewhere, it was considered pornograghy . Contributing to the delinquency of a minor(s), suppling drugs, should fit your case also.
> 
> So glad your police are doing their job. This is a much bigger crime than stealing golf balls that our police are busy charging a couple teenagers here with  I heard yesterday, class 5 felony?



Thanks Tom, Rose, and Deb!!! 

PJ -  The cops got a warrant and STILL AT&T only sent the times/numbers. YOu can email it, but emails can be edited, so they won't be meaningful (my guess) in the court of law. I like your idea of starting a new thread. Hopefully that will be okay with the moderators . 


Tia - you are so right. They went after one of the local kids who pooped in the development and got him quick. This is taking SO much longer! I call them A LOT. I've had to be the one to keep on top of the police to be sure they know I won't back down. It's not that I think they're not interested - it's that they're busy. Sometimes I think - I'll go run a red light - then I'll say, "HEY! Just the people I've been trying to reach." 

I so appreciate all the support everyone. THANKS


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## Janette (Jun 23, 2009)

Our youngest son is 30 and had two friends who died a couple of months ago from some bad drugs. These guys were in the gifted program in high school, active in the church youth group, had college degrees and very good families. My son had gotten upset with the life he was leading in college and joined the military(his choice). My son has a wonderful job and a new wife and was very upset when he lost these friends. I think the realization hit him that if he had not made his decision at 19, he could have been with them. Never say "my child wouldn't do that". Keep the communication lines open and pray. As a former teacher, I can say that peer pressure is very strong. When problems occur, be tough, but use tough love. At some point, the decision belongs to the child. Values are taught throughout life so if you have babies, start now!!


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## Zac495 (Jun 23, 2009)

Wow, Janette. thanks for posting. Glad your son is doing so well! I just hope my son has totally learned from this.


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## ScoopKona (Jun 23, 2009)

I don't think drugs are the problem. After all, heroin was once sold as an over-the-counter remedy for coughing.

I think the real problem is the void that many people have in their lives. That void spans all ages and incomes. It's not just kids. I had a grandmother who was totally whacked out on prescription drugs. I'm sure it killed her. But nobody seems to be fighting for the plight of drug-addicted geriatrics.

I think we should be less concerned about drugs (which are ridiculously easy to get) and more concerned about people's well being. No void, no addiction. It sounds all too simple, but I think that's how we should attack this social blight.

Packing people into jails is counter productive, if you ask me.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 23, 2009)

Ellen, I'm glad to hear Zac is doing good despite the restrictions you've set for him - as much as you know they're what he needs, I'm sure you were worried about how he would react.  Continued good wishes to you, him, and the rest of your family....

And, congratulations to Zac!  That's fabulous!  Obviously he's making the best of a bad situation, and you should be very proud.


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## taffy19 (Jun 24, 2009)

Ellen, I can imagine you cried when you heard Zac's name mentioned. I am so glad for Zac and everyone in your family that he is doing so well.

Have you tried taking pictures of your cell phone with the naked pictures and TXT MSGs so you have proof? That should work OK.

Aren't you going on vacation soon? Enjoy as you all deserve it and it will be a very nice change for all of you.


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## applegirl (Jun 24, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> Did I tell you that he won STUDENT OF THE YEAR at his school?!! .



That is very exciting news!  What a nice way to go to bed tonight.  I'm so happy for you and Zac.  Congratulations to you both 

Keep up the good work mom and thanks for the update. 

Janna


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## Zac495 (Jun 24, 2009)

ScoopLV said:


> I don't think drugs are the problem. After all, heroin was once sold as an over-the-counter remedy for coughing.
> 
> I think the real problem is the void that many people have in their lives. That void spans all ages and incomes. It's not just kids. I had a grandmother who was totally whacked out on prescription drugs. I'm sure it killed her. But nobody seems to be fighting for the plight of drug-addicted geriatrics.
> 
> ...



I agree with you there! I think alcohol is far more dangerous than marijuana - probably be safer if it were legal - only for 21 like booze - it could be taxed and regulated and we could spend less tax dollars catching people selling it. 

That said - this guy is 30 and went after a kid - drugs and porn. He deserves to be punished so it doesn't happen again. And I have never said my son had no culpability in all of this.

I don't know that Zac has a void in his life anymore than anyone else. Who doesn't feel like they have nothing to do once in a while? He reads, he has friends - he's a good kid basically.

How do we help with our kids' well being in general? Would love to hear it. I try to spend time with all 3 of them separately and together. Today I will take Zac out to lunch. A few days ago, I had a mom/Zoe day. What are we to do? How do we help our kids be the best they can be? I don't believe there is one answer for a family or for an individual. We, as parents, have to just keep our eyes and hearts wide open. I think.


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## Zac495 (Jun 24, 2009)

iconnections said:


> I can imagine you cried when you heard Zac's name mentioned. I am so glad for Zac and everyone in your family that he is doing so well.
> 
> Have you tried taking pictures of your cell phone with the naked pictures and TXT MSGs so you have proof? That should work OK.
> 
> Aren't you going on vacation soon? Enjoy as you all deserve it and it will be a very nice change for all of you.



Yes - the police took a digital of that picture.  We didn't digital all the texts, maybe I should - good idea! THANKS.

YES - Hawaii! 2 weeks. I think it's going to be great for all of us. And upon return, Zac goes to the computer camp to create his own video game. So he will be busy!

Thanks, everyone, for the kind words! I am proud of him!


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## Tia (Jun 24, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> ...That said - this guy is 30 and went after a kid - drugs and porn. He deserves to be punished so it doesn't happen again. ....



The creep has probably done this before, so there are no doubt other victims somewhere. Kids are good at keeping secrets and you can keep them busy but all it takes is one poor choice when something seemingly fun is offered  .


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## Zac495 (Aug 17, 2009)

*Update*

They finally arrested him! There are 2 counts - Corruption of a minor and (something like) illegal transmission of pornography to a minor.

Preliminary court hearing is next week - unless the lawyer files a continuance. How likely is that?

There's also the second child involved (the one who went with Zac) who they need to be sure that child can make that date - so I know the date is tenative.

Anyway - I'll keep you posted!


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## lprstn (Aug 17, 2009)

Well first of all I grew up in the city where drug use ran rampant.  One thing my father did for me is he would talk to me.  Walk me through situations by asking me questions and letting me come up with my own conclusions that he 'lead me into'.

For instance he would say, "What if you were at a party, and this kid you really didn't like got blitz...if you could do anything you wanted to them, and they wouldn't remember...what would you do, what would your friends do?"  Man when he asked me that...I thought up some horrible things... and then he asked me ... "Would you ever want someone to have that amount of control over you?"

I never, ever forgot the conversations we had, because I (being a teenager who thought they knew it all anyway) came up with the solution.

I use that same tactic on my kids today.

Also, another friend that has 3 boys that are doing well, told me her secret.  She kept her kids so busy with sports, martial arts, and family vacations... that her boys didn't have the time or inclination to slip.  As athletes who wanted scholarships and to play football, they knew that they could lose it all to drugs and they didn't try them.

Lastly, just talk to your kid.  We talk to our kids about everything, we lead by example, and we help them make up their minds about what is right for them.


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## Talent312 (Aug 17, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> They finally arrested him! There are 2 counts - Corruption of a minor and (something like) illegal transmission of pornography to a minor. Preliminary court hearing is next week - unless the lawyer files a continuance. How likely is that?
> 
> There's also the second child involved (the one who went with Zac) who they need to be sure that child can make that date - so I know the date is tenative.



When dealing with courts, delays are normal and to be expected.
From time to time, I deal with kids who sell, buy or do drugs. I try to relate by saying: "When we were your age, my brother and I tried some stuff we thought was cool. We had a pretty good time, too.  But once it triggered a siezure in my brother that put him in the hospital for a month.  I swore off the stuff, but my brother sold a little on the side to make money.  He's now serving a 3-yr prison sentence.  Its your future..." -- Its close to the truth.


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## Rose Pink (Aug 17, 2009)

Zac495 said:


> They finally arrested him!


 
Good!  I hope he doesn't weasle out of it.  I wouldn't worry about a continuance as long as he does not get out on bail.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 17, 2009)

Oh Ellen, you must be so glad this isn't sitting on a back burner somewhere!  As Talent said, you'll probably face delays throughout the process.  And, in the end, the guy will probably not get as severe a punishment as you and Zac would like.  But ... none of that is in your control.  You two have done as much as you could to make sure that it's been taken seriously, and obviously somebody with the power to do something about it has listened to you.  Good for the both of you!  Continued good thoughts for you and your family as you slog your way through this nightmare ....


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## GadgetRick (Aug 18, 2009)

Don't have time to read through everything but it has a lot to do with luck as well as parenting. We have a 6 and 3 year old and this is one of our biggest fears. We have a MAJOR problem with my brother-in-law. He's 35 and been on and off HARD drugs for years. The family won't put their foot down and make him go into a program and he just keeps getting worse. I've recently banned him from my home and my children. It's one of the very few things my wife and I have had serious arguments about.

Her parents raised 3 children and were as strict as any other parent. Her and her sister turned out fine but her brother has been going through this for years. They did nothing different with him from what I can tell. Who knows...


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## Zac495 (Oct 10, 2009)

*update*

First - Zac is doing GREAT GREAT GREAT.

We had the preliminary FINALLY. The ADA (assistant district attorney) said the case was under charged. They added 2 more felonies. His lawyer agreed to the added felonies, but dropped one misdemeanor. He waived the preliminary so is charged with 3 felonies and one misdemeanor. 
Transmission of porn to a minor
corruption of a minor
delivering drugs to a minor
unlawful contact with a minor

one of these felonies is MEGAN's list!

Next step - the trial.


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## Egret1986 (Oct 10, 2009)

*Great News, Ellen!*

It's good to hear a positive update on this!!!


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## pjrose (Oct 10, 2009)

I'm so glad they are prosecuting this scumbag.  It's been so slow and frustrating for you!


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## Zac495 (Mar 24, 2010)

*Update*

The guys was convicted - 2 felonies and 2 misdemeanors. Sentencing is Friday!

Meanwhile - my son is at the top of his class this year - straight A's and straightened out completely. He aims for NYU (better stop traveling and start saving!)

Thanks for listening.


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## pjrose (Mar 24, 2010)

Zac495 said:


> The guys was convicted - 2 felonies and 2 misdemeanors. Sentencing is Friday!
> 
> Meanwhile - my son is at the top of his class this year - straight A's and straightened out completely. He aims for NYU (better stop traveling and start saving!)
> 
> Thanks for listening.



Wow, great on both counts!  That is such good news!


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## Tia (Mar 24, 2010)

Thanks for following up as sometimes we never hear the end of the story. Glad they convicted the guy and good to read your son is doing well.


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## Rose Pink (Mar 24, 2010)

Thank you for the closure and congratulations to your son--and to you, Mom!


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## wegottago (Mar 24, 2010)

I'm getting nervous about the upcoming years.  I'm a people pleaser and it's not a good parenting style so I'm trying to be firmer and follow thru on what I say.  Luckily my husband is tougher and they listen to him.  

To be honest, if I may be open as I've never really said this to anyone, but it's like a wall between me and others. I want to make them happy and so I give in.  Even if I put up a fuss and say no, no I don't want to do that, no I'm not interested, even with all the protesting I give in...and then I hate myself for it or get in trouble (meaning I end up hurt because I'm doing something I didn't want to do in the 1st place).  This has happened all my life..with boyfriends especially.  And now it's happening as a parent and I hate it.  I've gotten better and am not like this all the time because I've become so much more aware of this trait over the last few years but it's hard.

My daughter listens and does pretty much what she's supposed to but my son not always.  When he was young and wanted something and I said No, he would beg and beg and I would give in...angrily of course and then I felt like sh..t because I let myself get taken advantage of.  Well I've gotten tougher because I'm aware of it and try not to let it happen.   

I've never had a great relationship with men in my life (verbally abusive, loud father who I never could trust, divorce, then quiet not too involved verbally but there step-father, etc. even difficulties with my husband).  I try to be firmer, consistent, and dole out discipline but it's hard to go against your natural personality.  It's makes me feel very sad sometimes being this way.

On the positive side my kids know I love them, am affectionate with them, do things with them, and try to have fun.  I'm learning and I picked up some good advice from these posts.  Hang in there!

Thanks for listening.


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## FlyerBobcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Zac495 said:


> The guys was convicted - 2 felonies and 2 misdemeanors. Sentencing is Friday!
> Meanwhile - my son is at the top of his class this year - straight A's and straightened out completely. He aims for NYU (better stop traveling and start saving!)
> Thanks for listening.



Thanks for the update, Ellen....


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## Tia (Mar 24, 2010)

JMHO  Since you say upcoming years, your kids must be younger?....  We learned  to present a united front with our kids and that really helped. Never let your kids get between your husband & you, if you do as teens you will have much more trouble, so will they. Kids see that you will give in and so they will beg and argue, just keep to your word and it will get to be less ...unless you give in. I used to buy time and tell my kids I'd get back to them after thinking about it.  Kids might like to drink soda & eat chips for breakfast & dinner but someone, you, has to prevent that. Same goes for other behaviors that need to be limited for _healthy _results. 




wegottago said:


> I'm getting nervous about the upcoming years.  I'm a people pleaser and it's not a good parenting style so I'm trying to be firmer and follow thru on what I say.  Luckily my husband is tougher and they listen to him.
> 
> ...Thanks for listening.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 24, 2010)

Great news, Ellen, so good for your family to have put this behind you and gotten back on track.  Yay!


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## MOXJO7282 (Mar 25, 2010)

Nowaday you need to know what you children are doing every second of the day. And you need to be a snoop. I'm sorry some think its an invasion of prviacy, but drugs are so devastating that I'd rather invade privacy then find out my kid is doing drugs, or worse. I tell my kids exactly that.  

We take a similar approach with alcohol and sex, although with drugs, of course there is zero tolerance. We tell them for alcohol and sex that if you experiment with any of these before your body and mind is mature enough to handle you could suffer terrible consequences.  

For alcohol and sex we don't make it seem like they're evil activities, in fact we tell tham that both can be a healthy part of life, but not until they are old enough to handle mentally and physically.

We also need to legalize pot and take the tremendous tax revenue and put it towards hard drug use prevention. Pot is less detructive than alcohol for sure, as long as they don't start until they are 21 just like alcohol. 

I'm convinced that if you can keep your kids on the straight and narrow until they are 20 or so, the likelyhood of addition is much much lower. Its when it starts at 12-18 when they get really messed up.

And if my child did try drugs at that age, I'd be testing them on a regular basis, it too important not to.  And if they pull the "you don't trust me" act, give them the old Reagan line" I trust but need to verify".


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## John Cummings (Mar 26, 2010)

Our children are grown now with families of their own. We never had any problems with our daughter or son. They never did drugs and were good kids. We were always very involved with our kid's activities the whole time they lived with us and after. Both of them were very involved in sports. We were strict parents but reasonable. We always did many things together and still do. They preferred to hang out with us rather than their friends. We are a bi-cultural family so our kids were exposed to both Mexican/American culture from when they were born. We talked openly about drugs and our kids used to tell us about what went on in their world.

I don't have any magic answers other than to be involved with your kids but be their parents and not just their friends. You can actually be both, which we were, but they should always know that the parents are in charge as long as they are living at home.


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## SallyMagoo (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm really lucky with my daughter.  She is a jewel and a really great kid.  

She's a free spirit and "being strict" about grades and behavior never seemed to work with her.  Being tolerant, sometimes looking the other way, being willing to let things go and compromising seemed to go a lot further.  We had a counselor we saw a few times who told us to relax and compromise, which really helped.  For a while I was really uptight about her "goth" look in middle school, but I learned to get over it.  Now she admits she regrets the goth thing, and says it hurt her image overall later among kids she might have liked to be closer with.   I never could dictate her activities, such as sports or school activities, but she's gotten into good colleges anyway, and made some good choices in school subjects.  I would have liked to see her participate a little more.  A sports champion, she'll never be, but she enjoys the recreational sport of skiing, and is very good at it.  She loves to do it with friends and her dad.  She approaches many activities with enthusiasm, especially if they are her idea.  She didn't want to continue in IB, and I respected her decision.  After all, it was she who had to do it.  

We went through some tough times in middle school when a close friend's parent was abusing the friend; my daughter had to testify at a trial, and it was a bad time, but it got resolved.  Middle school is tough, but it's not going to dictate a kid's future.  

Now my daughter's 18 and says she actually likes her parents.  We have some good talks.  She's a smart kid who has also done well in school.  She's not going to Harvard, but she'll do okay; she got into some good colleges.  I enjoy seeing her spread her wings in all types of social relationships.  She has many types of friends.  

My advice is to allow your children some freedom to simply enjoy being kids; and not try to control too much.  My daughter's cousin, sadly, is a nice kid, but her mother allowed her little freedom in high school.  She went wild in college, flunked out and is now living with her mother in a very distressing situation.  

You know they will try things.  Didn't you?  Everything in moderation.  I agree with the person who said you can't be too available for your kids. They know if you truly love them, and don't need to control them.  Isn't that all about your need?  Allow them to be the individuals they are.  My parenting philosophy.  Of course, there are things I would have done differently.

Sally


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## Tia (Mar 27, 2010)

It's hard to know the balance, which has many variables, and somethings can only be seen in hindsight. I was boring in middle & hs as a kid and so were my siblings and friends. As a result in raising my two in todays world I have asked friends, teachers , counselors , reading  books like 'Love and Logic' when trying to find solutions.

I think much of our difficulty came from outside my family in the form of other parents.   We drew a hard line in middle school with one of our dtrs competative sports teamates  who was sneaking out in the night and having driving age guys take her to parties.   The mom rewarded the dtr with a new cell phone after I showed her what I found on my computer re her dtrs activities. That mom told me " all kids do stuff you will find out"  . Come to find out they had taken their dtr and another girl to an outdoor concert the prior summer, camped out and allowed the girls to roam the grounds after midnight where there was  drinking day/night... the dtr and that friend got in to _huge_ trouble, newspaper story trouble. Mom told me the other parents were very mad at them for that... _ya think?_

 We had a long time neighbor who it finally came to light, after 10 years, was viciously verbally abusing is wife in front of his 4 kids & any kid who was a friend of his kids.    He had a Dr. title at work and outside the house acted normal ... It was hard to know how to handle that one but it had to have had a lasting negative impact on my kids.


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## easyrider (Mar 27, 2010)

ScoopLV said:


> I don't think drugs are the problem. After all, heroin was once sold as an over-the-counter remedy for coughing.
> 
> I think the real problem is the void that many people have in their lives. That void spans all ages and incomes. It's not just kids. I had a grandmother who was totally whacked out on prescription drugs. I'm sure it killed her. But nobody seems to be fighting for the plight of drug-addicted geriatrics.
> 
> ...



Scoop has hit the target. 

Hanging out with your kids does make a difference. Being someone who will guide instead of criticize makes a difference. Treating the kids with respect does make a difference.


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## pjrose (Mar 27, 2010)

easyrider said:


> Scoop has hit the target.
> 
> Hanging out with your kids does make a difference. Being someone who will guide instead of criticize makes a difference. Treating the kids with respect does make a difference.



I just got back from an afternoon at the mall with 18 y/o dd.  We had a good time and she said she enjoys shopping with me (and no, I didn't buy everything, she had some of her own money too).  She picked out some clothes that she wanted, and turned down the ones that I said might not be as flattering as the others.  Last night DH and I took DD and 3 of her friends to a restaurant for dinner; the girls sat and ordered separately, but we drove and paid.  Then we took them to see Alice 3D (great movie) and sat with them.  

I know a few teens who are amazed that she shops with her Mom  , and I know other girls who usually or always shop with their Moms.  I'm thankful that DD and I have a relationship where we can enjoy each other's company AND that she has good friends who also get along well with Moms - theirs and their friends'.


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## Zac495 (Apr 3, 2010)

We on TUG travel with our kids - that really helps. Remember as you read back about my son (as bad as this was) it was an evil predator - an adult - who got him at a game store. I spend tons of time with him and my daughter (I absolutely know that no one ever said I didn't!). Point being - always be on the alert because even when you're doing it all as right as  you can imagine, things can go wrong.

I really believe the media is affecting our kids. They watch things on TV that weren't there (we watched the Brady Bunch). Our kids see their idols talking back and laughing at stupid adults. They have new ways to communicate with each other - like face book - the world is so different.

Oh - Zac and I watched the guy be sentenced in court- it was like real TV. He cried and gave a statement apologizing for bringing shame to his 4 year old son - and apologized to our family. Then they handcuffed  him and took him off to prison. That was true closure. Thanks TUGGERS for reading and caring! Thanks for all the pm's, too.


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## pjrose (Apr 3, 2010)

Zac495 said:


> . . . .
> I really believe the media is affecting our kids. They watch things on TV that weren't there (we watched the Brady Bunch). Our kids see their idols talking back and laughing at stupid adults. They have new ways to communicate with each other - like face book - the world is so different.
> 
> Oh - Zac and I watched the guy be sentenced in court- it was like real TV. He cried and gave a statement apologizing for bringing shame to his 4 year old son - and apologized to our family. Then they handcuffed  him and took him off to prison. That was true closure. Thanks TUGGERS for reading and caring! Thanks for all the pm's, too.



You are absolutely right about the media.  It is amazing to see what some put on Facebook and what is popular with kids on TV - makes me wonder if their parents are clueless or don't care or just think it's all ok.

It's great that you saw him go off to prison!  If you hadn't been vigilant throughout the process it likely wouldn't have happened.  Too bad for his 4 year old son; it's surely no fault of his, and this man knows how he hurt his own child


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## Amy (Apr 3, 2010)

Zac495 said:


> He's getting help. He just turned 14, but he's my baby.



Hang in there.  s:


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## Amy (Apr 3, 2010)

Zac495 said:


> The guys was convicted - 2 felonies and 2 misdemeanors. Sentencing is Friday!
> 
> Meanwhile - my son is at the top of his class this year - straight A's and straightened out completely. He aims for NYU (better stop traveling and start saving!)
> 
> Thanks for listening.



Just saw this update.  So happy for you!


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