# What do I need to know when renting from a Wyndham owner



## WinniWoman (Jan 7, 2015)

I have rented privately from Worldmark, Innseasons, RCI weeks owners, etc. but not Wyndham. What to I need to be aware of?


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## DeniseM (Jan 7, 2015)

Wyndham takes forever to send the name change to the front desk - ask the owner to request the central reservations send it immediately, so you can call and confirm your reservation.

In theory, the front desk CAN go into the main frame and look up reservations that they don't have yet, but my experience has been that many times they don't know how to do it, are too busy, or won't do it for some other reason.


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## ronparise (Jan 7, 2015)

We Wyndham owners have to use a guest confirmation that costs $100 per reservation. so make sure your confirmation has your name on it, otherwise you may have to pay an extra $100 at check in

If the guy thats renting to you is a VIP he may not want to add your name to the reservation until within 60 days of check in. He does this to get a discount on the reservation. With the discount he is able to give you a better price than he would otherwise, and make more money for himself...its a win/win.  But depending on how its done there is a risk that the reservation might be lost. I would ask if the guy renting to you plans to cancel and rebook to capture the discount. You might want to pay him more so he can pay full price and avoid the risk

Know that most of the time we cant guarantee a particular room or view, You may get the dumpster view. Know that going in and be happy with what you get unless you paid a premium price for a premium view.

My practice is to charge a non refundable $100 deposit which I use for the guest confirmation and then I bill for the rest of the money after I present a confirmation in the guests name. (usually the next day)  I expect payment right now, even if the reservation is months into the future. However for the expensive stuff Ill accept a payment schedule. And I dont play the cancel and rebook game when Ive accepted a guests money

If I have a problem like the one Denise is talking about I will do a conference call with my guest to the reservations desk for confirmation, that Im for real and the reservation is legit.   If thats not good enough for the guest Ill rent the place to someone else.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 7, 2015)

ronparise said:


> ... If the guy thats renting to you is a VIP he may not want to add your name to the reservation until within 60 days of check in. He does this to get a discount on the reservation. With the discount he is able to give you a better price than he would otherwise, and make more money for himself...its a win/win.  But depending on how its done there is a risk that the reservation might be lost. I would ask if the guy renting to you plans to cancel and rebook to capture the discount. *You might want to pay him more so he can pay full price and avoid the risk* ...



I disagree with what's bolded.  If I'm renting from him, then I expect that the price he sets at the outset to be sufficient for the interval he's advertising and that he's not going to muck around with my reservations after we've agreed to the deal.

If the guy wants to take the risk with the cancel-and-rebook game then he should be doing it with the reservations he plans to use for his own stays, or, if he's playing with rentals then he should be laying out the risk and asking for permission ahead of time from the folks to whom he's renting.  I'd never rent from someone who's known to play the game without that permission, or from someone who pockets the difference if/when his renters agree to play.


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## ronparise (Jan 7, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> I disagree with what's bolded.  If I'm renting from him, then I expect that the price he sets at the outset to be sufficient for the interval he's advertising and that he's not going to muck around with my reservations after we've agreed to the deal.
> 
> If the guy wants to take the risk with the cancel-and-rebook game then he should be doing it with the reservations he plans to use for his own stays, or, if he's playing with rentals then he should be laying out the risk and asking for permission ahead of time from the folks to whom he's renting.  I'd never rent from someone who's known to play the game without that permission, or from someone who pockets the difference if/when his renters agree to play.



You are exactly right.. and we agree completely

 I dont do any mucking around, I charge a fair price based on me paying the full price for a reservation. 

 But the op asked what he should be on the look out for when renting Wyndham reservations.  So Im telling him to look for his name on the confirmation..If its not there your owner may be planning on playing games for the discount

I think if the quoted price seems too good to be true, that there is a possibility that the landlord is planning to cancel and rebook putting the reservation at risk. If you dont ask, you wont know.   You can avoid that possibility by renting from someone else that as you say "sets a  price at the outset to be sufficient for the interval he's advertising and that he's not going to muck around with my reservations after we've agreed to the deal."


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## SueDonJ (Jan 7, 2015)

ronparise said:


> You are exactly right.. and we agree completely
> 
> I dont do any mucking around, I charge a fair price based on me paying the full price for a reservation.
> 
> ...



I should have said something about not applying this to you, Ron, because you made it clear that you don't play the game with rentals.  But I still disagree with your original advice to offer more for a rental than what an owner is advertising, as a contingency "just in case" the owner does play the game.  The advertised price should be binding to protect the rental, period.  People who are renting from owners in good faith shouldn't have to ask questions about things that they may not know about, and, unless you're a timeshare owner in that system you have no need to know about the games.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 7, 2015)

Well, This is the story...I received a reply to a wish ad I posted on TUG from a gentleman who is a frequent guest on TUG for a number of years. I requested XMAS week 2015 for 4 nights ( 2 units for 2 families)at a resort he does not "own" and has never been to ( I believe he lives on the West coast and the resort I want is on the East coast). (Happens to be my home resort). I requested accommodations in any of several buildings I feel comfortable staying in. He asked me what I was willing to pay and we agreed on a price. I have no idea whether this price is low for what I want or not. I do know I paid the same price for a one bedroom rental there for 7 nights from a RCI weeks owner 2 years ago, but this is 4 nights for a two bedroom.He said he can get one of the desired buildings, but it was sketchy to me (we are only communicating by email so far). Said he could guarantee my building. Wants 50% down and 50 % balance after he adds my name 60 days before check-in.

I checked with my resort and they said he should request  deluxe accommodations via phone rather then book on-line, which I mentioned to him. I just have a certain standard for the accommodations that I am willing to accept and I will not accept anything less. I own there so I know what I want. My brother and his family would also be coming with us (have never been to this resort) and staying in their own unit and they have pretty high standards that they are used to, so I don't want to be embarrassed. It's will be the holidays after all.

Honestly, this man's "bedside" manner leaves a lot to be desired- quite a bit snarky from the beginning, which makes me leery. I did request his phone number which he sent to me, but I haven't called him yet. 

I am still mulling over whether to just go back to the resort we have gone to the past two years as the owner is easy to deal with. But would really like to change it up a bit and we always wanted to visit this resort for the holidays.


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## Vacationfuntips (Jan 7, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Well, This is the story...I received a reply to a wish ad I posted on TUG from a gentleman who is a frequent guest on TUG for a number of years. I requested XMAS week 2015 for 4 nights ( 2 units for 2 families)at a resort he does not "own" and has never been to ( I believe he lives on the West coast and the resort I want is on the East coast). (Happens to be my home resort). I requested accommodations in any of several buildings I feel comfortable staying in. He asked me what I was willing to pay and we agreed on a price. I have no idea whether this price is low for what I want or not. I do know I paid the same price for a one bedroom rental there for 7 nights from a RCI weeks owner 2 years ago, but this is 4 nights for a two bedroom.He said he can get one of the desired buildings, but it was sketchy to me (we are only communicating by email so far). Said he could guarantee my building. Wants 50% down and 50 % balance after he adds my name 60 days before check-in.
> 
> I checked with my resort and they said he should request  deluxe accommodations via phone rather then book on-line, which I mentioned to him. I just have a certain standard for the accommodations that I am willing to accept and I will not accept anything less. I own there so I know what I want. My brother and his family would also be coming with us (have never been to this resort) and staying in their own unit and they have pretty high standards that they are used to, so I don't want to be embarrassed. It's will be the holidays after all.
> 
> ...



If you have checked his reputation then have some faith.  Perhaps the point charts specify a building or view so - he knows what he is booking for you?  It does not matter that the owner has never been to your resort.  You told him what you wanted, and I am sure he will deliver otherwise he would not have commented. 

Many VIP owners add the guest name at the 60 day mark because to add the name of a guest has a cost involved or the owner does not want to use up their yearly guest confirmation add ons until a later date - in case if there are problems, cancellation, or other circumstances.

Your contract is your payment and his acceptance of payment and things agreed to.  

However, use your instinct - if you do not feel comfortable with the seller, it is better to back out now - so he can book something for someone else.

When I have rented from owners in the past before I became a timeshare owner, I would book closer to the travel date - if there were any problems I could file a claim with my credit card.  I have never had to do this.  Everything that was promised was always delivered and then some!

Good luck with your decision!

Cynthia T.


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## am1 (Jan 7, 2015)

A lot of renters want to wait until the 60 day discount window.  If they feel the price is the same outside of 60 days with the risk of losing the reservation they will still take it.  It is what the customer demands.  

That being said I would be very careful renting through an amateur.   A lot of times I have other rooms as backup.  

Others will just refund your money or worse.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

Vacationfuntips said:


> If you have checked his reputation then have some faith.  Perhaps the point charts specify a building or view so - he knows what he is booking for you?  It does not matter that the owner has never been to your resort.  You told him what you wanted, and I am sure he will deliver otherwise he would not have commented.
> 
> Many VIP owners add the guest name at the 60 day mark because to add the name of a guest has a cost involved or the owner does not want to use up their yearly guest confirmation add ons until a later date - in case if there are problems, cancellation, or other circumstances.
> 
> ...



I haven't gotten references from him yet. I cannot book close to check-in time because the owner has to book out at the 10 month window. I have no problem with my name being added at the 6 month window.Not to mention, our employers require our time off dates by February!  I, too, have never had any problems with renting from an owner. Like a lot of people, he didn't seem to read my whole ad and I had to point out several times that I would only stay in certain buildings and needed a guarantee we would be in one of those buildings. But he did say he could do it. 

I guess it is just his attitude that comes across through his correspondence. I have never experienced it before with anyone-Very unusual-from the get go- sarcastic and blunt- telling me to "just answer yes or no" to his questions- very odd. Not sure if that matters, but does cause me to hesitate....


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## WinniWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

am1 said:


> A lot of renters want to wait until the 60 day discount window.  If they feel the price is the same outside of 60 days with the risk of losing the reservation they will still take it.  It is what the customer demands.
> 
> That being said I would be very careful renting through an amateur.   A lot of times I have other rooms as backup.
> 
> Others will just refund your money or worse.



Not exactly sure what you are saying here.....


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## vacationhopeful (Jan 8, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Not exactly sure what you are saying here.....



am1 might have 4 identical reservations - you want one and paid for one. At the 60 day mark before checkin, he will play the cancel & rebook lottery with the 3 un-rented reservations. He WINs and saves at least 50% of the point value for a unit similar to your paid for unit; uses a Guest Certificate for your party - and then cancels & rebooks your original reservation.

If he LOST one or ALL of the other 3 reservations, YOU would still have a unit. He makes less money.


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## am1 (Jan 8, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> am1 might have 4 identical reservations - you want one and paid for one. At the 60 day mark before checkin, he will play the cancel & rebook lottery with the 3 un-rented reservations. He WINs and saves at least 50% of the point value for a unit similar to your paid for unit; uses a Guest Certificate for your party - and then cancels & rebooks your original reservation.
> 
> If he LOST one or ALL of the other 3 reservations, YOU would still have a unit. He makes less money.



I lose money but if I wanted to charge a price that reflected making money at full points costs I would be priced too high for most reservations.  Overall I make it work.  Customers are happy as well.


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## chapjim (Jan 8, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> I disagree with what's bolded.  If I'm renting from him, then I expect that the price he sets at the outset to be sufficient for the interval he's advertising and that he's not going to muck around with my reservations after we've agreed to the deal.
> 
> If the guy wants to take the risk with the cancel-and-rebook game then he should be doing it with the reservations he plans to use for his own stays, or, if he's playing with rentals then he should be laying out the risk and asking for permission ahead of time from the folks to whom he's renting.  I'd never rent from someone who's known to play the game without that permission, or from someone who pockets the difference if/when his renters agree to play.



I give my customers a choice -- pay full price and get a confirmed reservation right now or take the discount and accept the risk.  Want to guess which one people choose?


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## SueDonJ (Jan 8, 2015)

chapjim said:


> I give my customers a choice -- pay full price and get a confirmed reservation right now or take the discount and accept the risk.  Want to guess which one people choose?



Probably the risk?  More power to them but I'm just not built for it - I wouldn't be able to sleep at night while waiting for that 60-day confirmation.

But I don't have a problem with the way you're doing business because you lay out the risk for the renter and let him/her make the choice.  What's shady to me is when the game is played without the renter knowing and/or without the discount being extended to the renter.


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## chapjim (Jan 8, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> Probably the risk?  More power to them but I'm just not built for it - I wouldn't be able to sleep at night while waiting for that 60-day confirmation.
> 
> But I don't have a problem with the way you're doing business because you lay out the risk for the renter and let him/her make the choice.  What's shady to me is when the game is played without the renter knowing and/or without the discount being extended to the renter.



If the buyer and seller agree to the terms, why would anyone else care what the seller did or how much he paid for his reservation?

I've had times where I had an agreement with a buyer for, let's say, a 2BR deluxe unit someplace.  If I can get an upgrade to a 3BR unit, I do that for my buyer.  I don't shake him down for the upgrade.

If after we've agreed on a price and during the sixty day period before check-in, I'm able to upgrade a 1BR unit to a 2BR unit, then I make more money on the transaction.  My buyer gets what he bargained for.  He has no right to know my cost.  If he didn't like my price, he would have gone elsewhere at the beginning.


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## antjmar (Jan 8, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> (Happens to be my home resort).
> 
> I have no idea whether this price is low for what I want or not. I do know




Have you looked at booking directly with smuggs? Check their rates for comparison. They may be expensive but you will pick your room type and and it includes perks (such as the Smuggs pass and lift tickets) which you wont get when renting from a wyndham owner. 

I believe you will have to pay extra for the smuggs pass if you rent from a private party.

Also as you know the unit type (location on resort)  is related to check in date you select. 

Not to mention Christmas week is very popular and he might not even be able to book it for you at the 10 month mark...


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## DeniseM (Jan 8, 2015)

> What's shady to me is when the game is played without the renter knowing and/or without the discount being extended to the renter.



Once a price is agreed upon, I don't think the owner has any obligation to change the price, as long as they are delivering the agreed upon rental, at the agreed upon price.  

Using the same theory, if the cost to the owner went up, would you expect the renter to pay more than the agreed upon price?

That's just not how business works, and renting a timeshare is a business transaction.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 8, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Once a price is agreed upon, I don't think the owner has any obligation to change the price, as long as they are delivering the agreed upon rental, at the agreed upon price.
> 
> Using the same theory, if the cost to the owner went up, would you expect the renter to pay more than the agreed upon price?
> 
> That's just not how business works, and renting a timeshare is a business transaction.



For me it's all about the risk and I wouldn't choose to do business with an Owner who's known to play the cancel-and-rebook game without letting his renters know that their reservations could be at risk.  But for argument's sake if I were to take the risk then I would expect the Owner to at least share the reward with me.  Others might choose differently - both as far as the risk and potential business partner - and that's fine for them.

In my business I do let my clients know that the prices for some products fluctuate, sometimes wildly, because certain items are carried intermittently by certain vendors.  But before taking a deposit and agreeing to work with them, I give them my best estimated cost ranges in writing and let them know that they'll be billed further if my costs increase OR they'll be refunded if my costs decrease.  If they don't like the terms they don't have to hire me, but what's important is that the terms are clearly laid out for both of us.  If adjustments have to be made after then I give them a copy of my invoices.


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## DeniseM (Jan 8, 2015)

I understand what you are saying about your business, but having a variable price in timeshare rentals would make you look sketchy.  

Also, if you tell a renter that you might be able to give them a discount, they WILL EXPECT to get a discount, and they will be unhappy if they don't get it.  In timeshare rentals, it's better to only offer what you can promise.

If I rent a timeshare to a renter for $1,400, and he's happy with the price, but then I tell him I might be able to give him a $400 discount when I re-book, and it doesn't work out - he will be disappointed.  Better not to go there.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 8, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> I understand what you are saying about your business, but having a variable price in timeshare rentals would make you look sketchy.
> 
> Also, if you tell a renter that you might be able to give them a discount, they WILL EXPECT to get a discount, and they will be unhappy if they don't get it.  In timeshare rentals, it's better to only offer what you can promise.
> 
> If I rent a timeshare to a renter for $1,400, and he's happy with the price, but then I tell him I might be able to give him a $400 discount when I re-book, and it doesn't work out - he will be disappointed.  Better not to go there.



How's he going to feel when you try for the discount without him knowing anything about it, and you not only don't get the discount but lose his reservation in the process?  

I wouldn't mind the situation you outline with the Owner laying everything on the table, seems simple enough to me, but you may be right that it's best to keep things as simple as possible when you're renting.  But to me that means Owner and renter agreeing on a price at the outset and then neither of them doing anything further to risk the confirmed reservation.  It doesn't mean the Owner keeping the renter in the dark about games that make the Owner more money by risking the agreed-upon transaction.


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## DeniseM (Jan 8, 2015)

Sue - those are two completely separate issues.  

In your other post, you said that if the owner re-booked at a lower cost, they should pass the discount along to the renter, and that was the point I was addressing.  

I don't own Wyndham points, but l have had situations where the renter and I agreed upon a price, and then my cost turned out to be a little lower, so I made a little more on the rental.  

I certainly did not take the difference out of my pocket and hand it over to the renter, and I certainly didn't feel any obligation to do so.


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## ronparise (Jan 8, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> For me it's all about the risk and I wouldn't choose to do business with an Owner who's known to play the cancel-and-rebook game without letting his renters know that their reservations could be at risk.  But for argument's sake if I were to take the risk then I would expect the Owner to at least share the reward with me.  Others might choose differently - both as far as the risk and potential business partner - and that's fine for them.
> 
> In my business I do let my clients know that the prices for some products fluctuate, sometimes wildly, because certain items are carried intermittently by certain vendors.  But before taking a deposit and agreeing to work with them, I give them my best estimated cost ranges in writing and let them know that they'll be billed further if my costs increase OR they'll be refunded if my costs decrease.  If they don't like the terms they don't have to hire me, but what's important is that the terms are clearly laid out for both of us.  If adjustments have to be made after then I give them a copy of my invoices.



As has already been said here, it is possible to play the cancel and rebook game  safely, by making two identical reservations. no risk for either party, but the landlord makes more money if he is successful, less money or no money if he is not

It has also been pointed out that a fair price, that is profitable for the landlord is almost impossible. To be competitive the professional landlord  almost always bases his price on the discounted reservation. . What you, the customer has no way of knowing is; ... Will the landlord play the game safely or not (with two reservations, or with just one).

What I was trying to say in my earlier post is that when your landlord wont provide the guest confirm until 60 days from check in...you have a clue as to what he is doing, You still dont know how he is doing it....so ask. . If you demand your guest confirm now, as Jim says...you can do that, but it will cost more.

All this is why I just break even on the bulk of what I do. I My price for the common reservation made months and months in advance is based on my cost...and its just too high to be competitive and make money... Where I make my money are on special event, high value, low supply reservations that i have at the 50% discount that I rent inside of 60 days...  Im renting reservations now for $1050 that  cost me 36000 points (under $200 + 99 for the guest confirm)  no games and the customers name goes on right now(after a $100 deposit)


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## SueDonJ (Jan 8, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Sue - those are two completely separate issues.
> 
> In your other post, you said that if they owner re-booked at a lower cost, they should pass the discount along to the renter, and that was the point I was addressing.
> 
> ...



I was only talking about the cancel-and-rebook game being talked about in this thread although I guess it can be extended to anything else an Owner can do to puts a renter's confirmed reservation at risk.  With my Marriott Points I can play the same game but even with my own reservations I won't try it with anything except the lowest-demand intervals because of the risk factor.  As a renter I would definitely want the decision to take that risk to be my own, and if there's money to be made by taking the risk then I would want to at least share in the reward.

You said, "sketchy."  To me there's not much more that's sketchy than an Owner playing games with a renter's confirmed reservation without the renter's knowledge and/or without agreeing to terms in advance that share the risk/reward.  If an Owner is setting his rental prices based on what he can expect from the 60-day discount rate and not the rates at the time of rental agreement, then he should make that fact perfectly clear at the outset.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 8, 2015)

ronparise said:


> As has already been said here, it is possible to play the cancel and rebook game  safely, by making two identical reservations. no risk for either party, but the landlord makes more money if he is successful, less money or no money if he is not ...



You could have eighteen confirmed reservations but I'm assuming that as a landlord you want to rent out all of them, right?  Otherwise at some point you're either sitting on un-rented intervals or, if you're playing the game, you're taking the risk that you'll lose confirmed reservations.  I don't understand how the money you might be making by successfully playing the game with some intervals, makes up for the un-rented or lost intervals.  And if you're playing the game without your renters' knowledge, you're putting them at a distinct disadvantage.



ronparise said:


> It has also been pointed out that a fair price, that is profitable for the landlord is almost impossible. To be competitive the professional landlord  almost always bases his price on the discounted reservation. . What you, the customer has no way of knowing is; ... Will the landlord play the game safely or not (with two reservations, or with just one).
> 
> What I was trying to say in my earlier post is that when your landlord wont provide the guest confirm until 60 days from check in...you have a clue as to what he is doing, You still dont know how he is doing it....so ask. . If you demand your guest confirm now, as Jim says...you can do that, but it will cost more.
> 
> All this is why I just break even on the bulk of what I do. I My price for the common reservation made months and months in advance is based on my cost...and its just too high to be competitive and make money... Where I make my money are on special event, high value, low supply reservations that i have at the 50% discount that I rent inside of 60 days...  Im renting reservations now for $1050 that  cost me 36000 points (under $200 + 99 for the guest confirm)  no games and the customers name goes on right now(after a $100 deposit)



If I'm renting then I prefer that the Owner set his price based on me getting a confirmed reservation with no risks attached to it.  If the Owner can't set rates that meet my criteria as well as sustain a rental business, that's not my problem.    I will say as a timeshare owner, though, that I'd be willing to pay rental rates that I know will support an Owner's costs plus some.  Maybe that's the problem, that the private timeshare rental business is based on unrealistically low rates.  That's not the renters' fault, I don't think, so it seems unfair that they're being made to shoulder this risk (sometimes unknowingly) while the Owners reap the reward.


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## DeniseM (Jan 8, 2015)

Sue - I completely agree that owners should disclose it if they are going to try to cancel and rebook at the 60 days mark, and they might lose the confirmation.

However, if they have a back-up confirmation, so there is no chance of losing the reservation, then I think that's the owner's business, and not the renters.

But again - that is a completely different issue.

Once a price is agreed upon, the owner would be a very foolish business person, to lower the price.  That means that they are taking money out of their pocket and handing it over to the renter.  Why would anyone do that?  To be nice?  Renting a timeshare is a business transaction - not charity.

Also - once you start giving discounts, you set a dangerous precedence, because that renter will EXPECT a discount in the future, even when you can't give one.  AND they will tell their friends you can give them a discount.

I have had this happen many times - "You rented a timeshare to my friend at the last minute for a great price, so I'd like to rent a high demand week in 6 mos. for that price.  You can't do it?  But you gave my friend a discount, and that's not fair."

*There is a lot more to renting as a business, than you see on the surface.


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## DeniseM (Jan 8, 2015)

I thought of an example:

I accept almost all payments through Paypal, and Paypal charges me 2.9% of the total rent.

Recently, someone wanted to wire the money to me, instead of using Paypal, and my bank only charges $15 to accept a wire payment, so I saved $89 in Paypal Transaction fees.  Did I give $89 back to the renter? - I certainly did not!  I said, "Yippee for me, I made $89 more on this rental."


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## SueDonJ (Jan 8, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Sue - I completely agree that owners should disclose it if they are going to try to cancel and rebook at the 60 days mark, and they might lose the confirmation.
> 
> However, if they have a back-up confirmation, so there is no chance of losing the reservation, then I think that's the owner's business, and not the renters.
> 
> ...



I don't know how many more times or what other ways I can say it.  If an Owner is playing the game then his renters should be made aware of it, and if there's a reward for playing the game then the Owners and renters should at least share in it.  It's not the renters' fault if the Owner can't sustain his rental business without playing, and if explained correctly then this discount and its inherent risk isn't difficult to understand.  Like chapjim said, most people will probably choose to take the risk.  That's okay by me, I just want everyone to know if the choice is available and that it's not being made for them without their knowledge.

Anybody that has a business knows that dealing with customers is sometimes difficult.  So what if they ask for the moon and the sun and the stars, or discounts because that's what they heard their friends got?  If an Owner is consistent, fair, and lays everything on the table then reasonable people will do business with him.  The unreasonable people will only cause headaches anyway so you may as well try to weed them out any way you can.


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## ace2000 (Jan 8, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> I don't know how many more times or what other ways I can say it.  If an Owner is playing the game then his renters should be made aware of it, and if there's a reward for playing the game then the Owners and renters should at least share in it.



Let's agree that there is money to be made here (with the "game" as described) and there is zero risk involved (at least when using the approach Ron disclosed).  How do you propose letting the renter know that there is a potential savings involved and sharing the benefits with them?  I think Denise has it figured out correctly.

I don't see any issues with doing it the way Ron described.  However, there are surely other owners that do it without the safety net and that's where the potential problem lies.


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## DeniseM (Jan 8, 2015)

Sue - A little more info.:

-It is almost impossible to compete in the Wyndham market, if you don't rebook at 60 days.  Otherwise, you can't be competitive.  So for the Mega-Renters, *rebooking is the norm - not the exception.*

-Many owners do this by making TWO reservations for the rental, so if the rebook falls through, they already have a back-up for the renter.

-When you get a good price on a Wyndham rental, the owner has ALREADY quoted you the rebooking price.

-So the owner isn't making more money if he rebooks, but he is losing, if he can't rebook.

-You have a right to your opinion, that the owner should share a better price with you if they can get it, but how would you ever enforce that?


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## am1 (Jan 8, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Sue - A little more info.:
> 
> -It is almost impossible to compete in the Wyndham market, if you don't rebook at 60 days.  Otherwise, you can't be competitive.  So for the Mega-Renters, *rebooking is the norm - not the exception.*
> 
> ...



I agree with this.  Wyndham rentals can be very complicated.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 8, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Sue - A little more info.:
> 
> -It is almost impossible to compete in the Wyndham market, if you don't rebook at 60 days.  Otherwise, you can't be competitive.  So for the Mega-Renters, *rebooking is the norm - not the exception.*
> 
> ...



I can't figure out how it benefits the Owner if he's booking two intervals in order to protect one in the event that the 60-day cancel-and-rebook results in one being lost.  Isn't he effectively tying up two intervals for one renter?  (Plus I wonder about the ones that get "lost" - in the Marriott system the reservations lost due to the game result in distressed Points.  So not only are the Owners risking confirmed reservations/rentals, if they lose then their Points are devalued.  I don't know if Wyndham's are similar?)  I've gotta  be missing something here ...

I also can't figure out why it was necessary for Wyndham mega-renters to have set the ceiling on rental prices as the 60-day discounted rates.  Seems to be a recipe for failure ...

Anything I can "enforce" will be only for myself, of course.  So, any Wyndham Owners in this thread who call themselves out as playing the game without letting your renters know about it?  I won't be renting from you!    Seriously, practically every other day there's something new on TUG that makes me glad I don't rent timeshares either from or to.  There are a few Marriott Owners* from whom I'd rent with no misgivings but really, I'm not interested.

(*It's not that I'll only stay at Marriott's; it's that I'm most familiar with TUGgers who frequent the Marriott forum.)


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## DeniseM (Jan 8, 2015)

Wyndham reservations are completely different than Marriott, because Wyndham is a points based system.

If the owner can rebook at a lower points cost, he cancels the extra reservation, and puts the points back in his Acct.  

If he loses the reservation when he tries to rebook, he rents the extra reservation to his renter.  No harm - no foul.  But the owner may not make any money, or take a loss, on the rental.

Prices are set by what the market will bear.  Wyndham owners with a lot of points figured out that they can beat out the competition, by rebooking at a lower price, and do more rentals for less points = more rentals and more profitable rentals.  

When your average Joe Renter sees that he can rent at a lower price from someone who uses the re-booking method, he doesn't know or care what they are doing behind the scenes, he will always go for the lower price.

I would not hesitate to rent from anyone in this thread, and I believe they would tell me the truth, if I asked what their re-booking policy is.


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## Sandy VDH (Jan 8, 2015)

If a mega renter has that much time and energy and is willing to work for the opportunity for a loss, then more power to them. (yes that was sarcasm).

I am in not in the habit of trying to run anything as a business that the starting position is NOT profitable, and I would have to hope for a cancel and rebook to make any money.  If there are mega renters who are doing this, they have NO business sense, or no good business model.


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## DeniseM (Jan 8, 2015)

Sandy - Believe it or not, the Mega-renters are doing very well with this method, and it is profitable.  But of course, you have to know what you are doing.

FYI - I don't own Wyndham points, I own weeks, but I do understand how it works.


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## Vacationfuntips (Jan 8, 2015)

This is very simple.

Either the Buyer feels comfortable renting from the Seller or doesn't.

The VIP discount should NOT be a factor at the 60 day mark.   A Good Seller would make sure they have a back up plan if they were going to do the discount cancel and re-book trick - example would be 2 extra vacations for the dates requested from the Buyer to attempt this.  Otherwise, NO ONE should risk anything!  Period. 

If the Seller is able to get a discount - it is their business and no one else.  A Seller has the right to make some money, after all those VIP accounts are not cheap and the Seller does have yearly maintenance fees involved.

The Seller and Buyer agreed to a price already.  That is what matters and the price should not change.    

The dates the Buyer is looking for the reservation are a PRIME SEASON/ Holiday.  In order to get those dates - a Seller would have to book far in advance 13 months, 10 months or something similar to that.  Reservations for those dates are hard to come by and go fast.  There is a lot of competition in securing holiday reservations.  Otherwise, a Seller has to try to pick up the mistakes & cancellations of others trying to get the VIP discount.  Trust me when I say, that there are owners looking for the reservations on a daily basis and they go very fast. 

I personally have no sympathy for anyone who loses a reservation this way - especially knowing the risks involved.   It is not fair to the Buyer to risk losing their reservation.  I don't think anyone wants to ruin someone's holiday vacation.  

If the Buyer does not feel comfortable with the Seller or vice versa - it is better to just move on quickly and work with someone who you feel more comfortable with.     I would never make a promise that I am not sure of to anyone.  It is better to say to the Buyer that "I have secured your reservation with my points and put in your requests -  Nothing in life is 100% Guaranteed.  Somethings are beyond an owners control, but I did do what we agreed"    Try to put everything in writing - terms conditions, resort policies in writing too.  Less problems down the road this way for both parties.

Cynthia T.


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## ace2000 (Jan 8, 2015)

Since the details of the "cancel and rebook" method is now widely known on TUG, I'd hate to be the next owner that has one of these rentals "fall through the cracks" within that 60 day period and then has to inform the renter of such.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 8, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Wyndham reservations are completely different than Marriott, because Wyndham is a points based system. ...



The comparison I'm making is to Marriott's Points system, and to those Marriott Members who would be the equivalent of Wyndham mega-renters (i.e. those with access to enough Points to make duplicate reservations.)



DeniseM said:


> If the owner can rebook at a lower points cost, he cancels the extra reservation, and puts the points back in his Acct. ...



In Marriott's system at the cancel-and-rebook mark the returned Points from both the discounted and the extra reservation would be distressed (subject to a 60-day Reservation Window, can't be banked, borrowed or transferred, etc.)  Are Wyndham's Points also distressed at that mark?

If it were me as the Owner, I would provide a rebate to the renter for the discounted Points returned to my account because I would have based my rental rate on the number of Points needed for the non-discounted reservation.  It would be a pro-rated rebate, though, because of the now-distress nature of the returned Points.



DeniseM said:


> If he loses the reservation when he tries to rebook, he rents the extra reservation to his renter.  No harm - no foul.  But the owner may not make any money, or take a loss, on the rental. ...



Same, returned Points from lost reservation would be distressed.

So either way the Owner is left with distressed Points and only one rental from two confirmed reservations.  If he'd simply rented both at the outset, or reserved and rented only one, wouldn't he be better off?



DeniseM said:


> Prices are set by what the market will bear.  Wyndham owners with a lot of points figured out that they can beat out the competition, by rebooking at a lower price, and do more rentals for less points = more rentals and more profitable rentals.
> 
> When your average Joe Renter sees that he can rent at a lower price from someone who uses the re-booking method, he doesn't know or care what they are doing behind the scenes, he will always go for the lower price. ...



Are you saying nicely that I'm not your Average Joe?  Seriously, I think any renter would care upon learning that an Owner is risking the interval being rented.  Some, maybe even most, would accept the risk for the lower price ... but they can't know unless they're told.



DeniseM said:


> I would not hesitate to rent from anyone in this thread, and I believe they would tell me the truth, if I asked what their re-booking policy is.



It's not my intention to insult anyone in this thread and I'm sorry if anyone is getting that impression.  Obviously my risk tolerance is lower than what most of you will accept, probably lower than what's reasonable.  That reflects on me, not on any of you.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 8, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> Since the details of the "cancel and rebook" method is now widely known on TUG, I'd hate to be the next owner that has one of these rentals "fall through the cracks" within that 60 day period and then has to inform the renter of such.



On the Marriott forum we have a name for it - "The Puck Trick" - because TUGger PuckmanFL was the first to see it in the docs when the Destination Club was introduced.  The problem as I see it isn't that the timeshare owners know it exists - it's that the renters may not.


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## ace2000 (Jan 8, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> On the Marriott forum we have a name for it - "The Puck Trick" - because TUGger PuckmanFL was the first to see it in the docs when the Destination Club was introduced.  The problem as I see it isn't that the timeshare owners know it exists - it's that the renters may not.



Sure, but keep in mind that if done properly (in the manner that Ron described), there is zero risk.  Ron has the multiple accounts, so he can pull it off.  Other mega-renters or VIPs may not have that luxury and could possibly be snared.


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## ronparise (Jan 8, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> I can't figure out how it benefits the Owner if he's booking two intervals in order to protect one in the event that the 60-day cancel-and-rebook results in one being lost.  Isn't he effectively tying up two intervals for one renter?  (Plus I wonder about the ones that get "lost" - in the Marriott system the reservations lost due to the game result in distressed Points.  So not only are the Owners risking confirmed reservations/rentals, if they lose then their Points are devalued.  I don't know if Wyndham's are similar?)  I've gotta  be missing something here ...
> 
> I also can't figure out why it was necessary for Wyndham mega-renters to have set the ceiling on rental prices as the 60-day discounted rates.  Seems to be a recipe for failure ...
> 
> ...



Sure thats exactly what hes doing but even if he loses in the cancel and rebook game he still has the cancelled points to re rent

And Its not a ceiling that we have set...its the market and the problem is that the my cost is too close to the market to excite me. 

To explain Ill talk about what im working on right now, Mardi Gras

a year ago I made 28 weekend reservations  most were one bedrooms at 98000 points ( my mf cost plus a guest cert is $600  and I rent these for $350 a night or $1050)  The studios  cost 72000 points (mf plus guest cert = $500)  So  about  $400 profit either way...If rent them all at my price  Ill make just over $11000

The question is does it make sense to play the cancel and rebook game if I risk losing a few?  Heres what happened to me this year.. I didnt rent any of these early at 60 days I still had all the reservations to rent. I cancelled and rebooked and upgraded and the end result was I lost 3.  I now have 8 studios at 36000 points and 17 one bedrooms at the same 36000 points. My cost is $300 per reservation and I make about $700 on each one

so without the games I make $11000   Playing the game,  losing 3 reservations and I make over $17000 plus I get all those cancelled points back to do something else with. 

Back to the ops question  He asked what he should know when renting from a Wyndham owner...What he should know is that the owner may be playing the cancel and rebook game and putting the reservation at risk doing so...He should also know that the mf cost is close to $6/1000 points and their is a guest cert to pay for.  and he should also know what the point cost is for his reservation. (look it up). My advice is that knowing these things, if the rental price seems too good to be true this owner may be counting on cancelling and rebooking and your reservation may be at risk.... Maybe not,   What the op decided to do with this info is his business...for me it would be enough to  experience that bad bedside manner. I wouldnt need anything else. Id keep looking


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## am1 (Jan 8, 2015)

With 100's of rentals I cannot keep track of rebates.  As well as whos reservation was discounted and whose was not if they are for the same week.  After I get one discounted I will try the second and then try to rent it out.  

Yes the points come back as "distressed"  that just makes the rental market even harder.  

I would rather rent from someone who knew what they were doing and make sure to make a wrong right then someone who just rents a few reservations a year.  

It is not easy and I would not encourage others to do it but if one knows what they are doing the can limit the risk and with backups they can eliminate it altogether.  

Some people are better off to rent directly from the hotel as that is probably the "lowest" risk of all.


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## DeniseM (Jan 8, 2015)

> If it were me as the Owner, I would provide a rebate to the renter for the discounted Points returned to my account because I would have based my rental rate on the number of Points needed for the non-discounted reservation. It would be a pro-rated rebate, though, because of the now-distress nature of the returned Points.



Sue - if you did this, you would find it difficult to get any renters, because your price would be higher than the best market rate.

Why would I rent from you for $1,400 (and MAYBE a rebate of $400.)

When I can rent from Mr. Mega-renter for $1,000 - firm.

Plus - it is so dangerous to tell a renter that they "might" get a rebate - you never, ever offer a renter something that you can't guarantee, because if you say "might" they will expect you to make it happen, and they will be mad, and feel cheated, if you can't produce.  It's the nature of the beast...

I don't think you are cut out to be a Mega-Renter.


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## am1 (Jan 8, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> I don't think you are cut out to be a Mega-Renter.



And thats not a bad thing.  I work 24/7.  It is not easy but I would not want any other job.  

Trying to find out whats next though before anyone else does.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 8, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Sue .. I don't think you are cut out to be a Mega-Renter.



Pretty sure we're ALL in complete agreement that I am DEFINITELY not cut out to be anywhere near the timeshare rental market!


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## DeniseM (Jan 8, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> Pretty sure we're ALL in complete agreement that I am DEFINITELY not cut out to be anywhere near the timeshare rental market!



I think it would push you over the edge….  :rofl:


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## DeniseM (Jan 8, 2015)

I bet mpumilia is so sorry she asked!


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## chapjim (Jan 8, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Sue - A little more info.:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...



True, if I make two reservations I'll have a back-up but I'll lose money when I rent the undiscounted backup.  I've had a couple of occasions where I went out and acquired a week on the market when I lost a reservation.  I was able to find someone whose price was pretty close to mine.  I lost $50 or $100 -- way better than selling a week for a discounted price that cost me undiscounted points.  That could easily be $1,000.

There are lots of owners who have average maintenance fees a bit lower than mine but not half mine.  So, anyone -- ANYONE -- who is pricing rentals in the same price range as mine is rebooking.  The only exception would be someone who is at the end of his use year and is trying to get something instead of losing points.  (I was trying to rent 2BR and 3BR presidential units for $450 last month.  Can't believe no one wanted to go to Panama City Beach in December!!)

My listed prices have always been based on my being able to re-book.  As someone already mentioned, that's what you have to do to get even a nibble.  Because the incidence of losing reservations while re-booking has increased lately, I'm changing my business model and not listing most reservations until I've rebooked.  When I do list before re-booking, I tell potential buyers what I'm doing and pencil them in for the reservation and get back to them when I have rebooked (or lost the reservation trying).  I don't take money until I've rebooked.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

antjmar said:


> Have you looked at booking directly with smuggs? Check their rates for comparison. They may be expensive but you will pick your room type and and it includes perks (such as the Smuggs pass and lift tickets) which you wont get when renting from a wyndham owner.
> 
> I believe you will have to pay extra for the smuggs pass if you rent from a private party.
> 
> ...



Well- I did think of that. I have winter benefits as an owner and I also can use the Sycamores facilities since I won there, so I do only need the accommodations. We don't ski anyway and usually only do fee based activities. I called Smuggs and the cost they quoted was so outrageous I can't even keep a straight face when I think of it.:rofl:


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## WinniWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

Are you people saying that the Wyndham owner should be able to give me a Confirmation in my name 10 months out instead of 60 days before check-in? And, what about the confirmation of a unit? 

Should I be asking the owner if he intends to cancel and rebook? Also- I am not a Wyndham owner so I do not know anything about looking up point values, etc. (and I am a weeks owner)

I also just got another response to my ad by who seems like a much more amiable person and she quoted the same rate as the other guy right off the bat.

I definitely cannot have a reservation at risk. We are people with jobs who have to put in for our time off in February. We need to have this accommodation for the holidays as it is our only way to be with family. This reservation also involves a second unit for other relatives- so you have two families' holidays at stake here.

Isn't this something to be put in the written rental agreement? The guaranteed unit location and dates?

This is becoming way over my head!


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## DeniseM (Jan 8, 2015)

It's possible to get a reservation/confirmation months in advance, but it will cost you more, because the owner has to use more points.

At 60 days out, the reservations take fewer points, thus cost less, however, it may not be available at 60 days out.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> I bet mpumilia is so sorry she asked!



I have a major headache


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## WinniWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> It's possible to get a reservation/confirmation months in advance, but it will cost you more, because the owner has to use more points.
> 
> At 60 days out, the reservations take fewer points, thus cost less, however, it may not be available at 60 days out.



Knowing this makes me nuts now. Is this just a Wyndham thing or any points system?


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## DeniseM (Jan 8, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Knowing this makes me nuts now. Is this just a Wyndham thing or any points system?



Every point system is different.

But it's impossible for your average renter to understand the nuances of every resort system, so I think it's more important to trust the person who you are renting from.

How to verify that a rental is Legit:  http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109479


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## antjmar (Jan 8, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Well- I did think of that. I have winter benefits as an owner and I also can use the Sycamores facilities since I won there, so I do only need the accommodations. We don't ski anyway and usually only do fee based activities. I called Smuggs and the cost they quoted was so outrageous I can't even keep a straight face when I think of it.:rofl:



I dont know what your ad says but a 2 br varies from 154K to 400K per week.
Thats going from a "basic" 2 br to a presidential. I bet you want a 2br deluxe (like tamaraks?) 
However, if your check in dates dont coincide with the check in dates for those type of units its very unlikely you will get what you want. Thats a prime week so you cant just pick any check in day and get that that type of unit. since you own there I think you understand what I am trying to explain.
I'll say it again if they dont own there Christmas week will be a challenge not impossible but they will go quickly...

Yes smuggs prices are outrageous but they include lift tickets daily and the smuggs pass.


Ill be up there during Presidents week!


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## WinniWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

antjmar said:


> I dont know what your ad says but a 2 br varies from 154K to 400K per week.
> Thats going from a "basic" 2 br to a presidential. I bet you want a 2br deluxe (like tamaraks?)
> However, if your check in dates dont coincide with the check in dates for those type of units its very unlikely you will get what you want. Thats a prime week so you cant just pick any check in day and get that that type of unit. since you own there I think you understand what I am trying to explain.
> I'll say it again if they dont own there Christmas week will be a challenge not impossible but they will go quickly...
> ...



Thanks for the input. My ad says indicates the buildings I would consider. I know from nothing about points.According to the other Wyndham person that contacted me, Tamaracks are more points than Sycamores or Aspens. I do want either Sycamores, Aspens or Willows, since that is what I own. I do understand what you mean about the check-in dates, but isn't the point of owning points that you have flexibility for short stays, etc? Neither of these people who contacted me own at Smuggs.

I don't think you understand what I said- I already have lift tickets as I own winter benefits as well as summer benefits. (We don't ski anyway)The quote I got was for accommodations only- outrageous, outrageous! I could take a plane trip, pay airfare for 3 and stay a week (7 nights) somewhere else for less than they were asking just for the unit for 4 nights!!!

Enjoy your week up there. 

I think I am probably better off renting from a SMUGGS weeks owner or an SMUGGS RCI points owner, unless I can get confirmation in my name right away and a rental agreement guaranteeing my unit and dates.. Or I will just go back to the New Hampshire resort we have stayed at the past two years which we rented from someone else.. I don't like hassles- I am for simplicity.


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## antjmar (Jan 8, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> My ad says indicates the buildings I would consider. I know from nothing about points.According to the other Wyndham person that contacted me, Tamaracks more points than Sycamores or Aspens. I do want either Sycamores, Aspens or Willows, since that is what I own. I do understand what you mean about the check-in dates, but isn't the point of owning points that you have flexibility for short stays, etc? Neither of these people who contacted me own at Smuggs.
> 
> I don't think you understand what I said- I already have lift tickets as I own winter benefits as well as summer benefits. The quote I got was for accommodations only- outrageous, outrageous! I could take a plane trip, pay airfare for 3 and stay a week somewhere else for less than they were asking just for the unit!!!



I will speak of my experience. I am checking into a tamarack on a Friday which is the normal check in date for those units. Since its a prime week I must stay 3, 4 or 7 nights. However if I try to  change my reservation it will allow a 3 or 4 night stay with a Friday check in but it will not show any availability for a Saturday check in. 
I realize you don't need the ski lift tickets I did not think you could just book lodging. The smuggs website shows 3 different options but they all include lift tickets. However, I never called the 800 number to inquire about just lodging.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

About 2 years ago we rented a 1 bedroom unit in Sycamores from a weeks owner for 7 nights for what the Wyndham owner quoted me for 4 nights for the 2 bedroom. I'm ok with the quote, but I do not know if the quote is based on the cancel/rebook thing or what, but you can be sure I will ask!


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## WinniWoman (Jan 9, 2015)

antjmar said:


> I will speak of my experience. I am checking into a tamarack on a Friday which is the normal check in date for those units. Since its a prime week I must stay 3, 4 or 7 nights. However if I try to  change my reservation it will allow a 3 or 4 night stay with a Friday check in but it will not show any availability for a Saturday check in.
> I realize you don't need the ski lift tickets I did not think you could just book lodging. The smuggs website shows 3 different options but they all include lift tickets. However, I never called the 800 number to inquire about just lodging.




But - are you saying that the Wyndham owner would not be able to get me a Wednesday check-in when she calls to reserve the FIRST TIME (and hopefully is not going to cancel/rebook or any of that stuff) since Sycamore/Aspens is normally a Sunday check-in?


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## antjmar (Jan 9, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> I know from nothing about points.According to the other Wyndham person that contacted me, Tamaracks are more points than Sycamores or Aspens.\.





mpumilia said:


> But - are you saying that the Wyndham owner would not be able to get me a Wednesday check-in when she calls to reserve the FIRST TIME (and hopefully is not going to cancel/rebook or any of that stuff) since Sycamore/Aspens is normally a Sunday check-in?



The chart says all these have the same point value...


If you are checking OUT on a Sunday that WILL work. Since those units are Sunday check in or out. So 4 nights will work with a Wednesday check in. 

However, keep in mind no one has had the opportunity to book these yet (unless they own there).  If all the available units are reserved 10 months out for that check in on Sun Dec 20th for 7 nights there wont be any units available for 4 nights checking on the 23rd. 

If you really want this type of unit they should book a full week  for a 20th check in and then a few day later cancel it and only take the 4 day   Wednesday check in reservation.

Good luck!


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## tschwa2 (Jan 9, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> On the Marriott forum we have a name for it - "The Puck Trick" - because TUGger PuckmanFL was the first to see it in the docs when the Destination Club was introduced.  The problem as I see it isn't that the timeshare owners know it exists - it's that the renters may not.



But a large Marriott points owner might own or have access to 25,000 DC points.  He would have to have closer to 300,000 DC points to be in the same league (many Mega Wyndham owners have 5-10 annual million points).  So he has a lot more points to play with than then most who could use the Puck trick.  Wyndham has points pooling that works for 3 years so on a particular year a Wyndham mega point person might have 15-30 million points available for back up reservations.  

Wyndham points can generally be cancelled as late as 14 days prior without penalty.  So cancelling excess reservations at 60 days isn't going to cause the problems. With Marriott they become restricted much further out.


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## ronparise (Jan 9, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> But - are you saying that the Wyndham owner would not be able to get me a Wednesday check-in when she calls to reserve the FIRST TIME (and hopefully is not going to cancel/rebook or any of that stuff) since Sycamore/Aspens is normally a Sunday check-in?



In Prime time a Full week reservation at Sycamore/Aspens requires a Sunday check in.  A 3 or 4 night reservation requires a Sunday check in or check out

So if you want a Wednesday check in it has to be 4 nights (checking out on Sunday). and if this is done right at the 10 month mark, and you want a full week, the owner will have to call back in 4 days to make a 3 night reservation (checking in on Sunday)  since this is two reservation there will be two guest confirms as well ($99x 2)

I think I advised early on in this thread, in answer to the ops question: What do I need to know when renting from a Wyndham owner?...You need to know the points chart.  It online for everyone to see<<<Thats where you find the check in and check out rules


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## tschwa2 (Jan 9, 2015)

mpumilia,
Since Smuggs was originally sold as weeks and the points were overlaid, there still is a week system underneath.  That's why there are restrictions about checking in and checking out.  

Also points systems often aren't the cheapest way to get prime weeks.  In the weeks system everyone pays the same MF's.  So the prime week owner may be paying 1/3 of the MF's that the point owner has to use to get the week.  Conversely if you are renting an off peak week from a weeks owner, if he rents  at just the MF's, you might find a points owner that can rent it out for half that amount and still make a profit.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 9, 2015)

tschwa2 said:


> mpumilia,
> Since Smuggs was originally sold as weeks and the points were overlaid, there still is a week system underneath.  That's why there are restrictions about checking in and checking out.
> 
> Also points systems often aren't the cheapest way to get prime weeks.  In the weeks system everyone pays the same MF's.  So the prime week owner may be paying 1/3 of the MF's that the point owner has to use to get the week.  Conversely if you are renting an off peak week from a weeks owner, if he rents  at just the MF's, you might find a points owner that can rent it out for half that amount and still make a profit.



So think I get it-my reservation would be for 4 nights Wed check-in and Sunday check-out, so that should work. But on the Wyndham owner's end she has to book a full week and then cancel the excess days from Sunday to Wed morning or use them for another reservation?

I will say from what I see Smuggs weeks/points owners charging on the swap column and elsewhere, the Wyndham owner quote is a much, much better deal price wise. I thought, too, it would be less expensive to rent from a Smuggs weeks or RCI points owner, but that doesn't look like the case.


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## ronparise (Jan 9, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> So think I get it-my reservation would be for 4 nights Wed check-in and Sunday check-out, so that should work. But on the Wyndham owner's end she has to book a full week and then cancel the excess days from Sunday to Wed morning or use them for another reservation?
> 
> I will say from what I see Smuggs weeks/points owners charging on the swap column and elsewhere, the Wyndham owner quote is a much, much better deal price wise. I thought, too, it would be less expensive to rent from a Smuggs weeks or RCI points owner, but that doesn't look like the case.



You are wrong about a Wyndham owner having to book a full week. In our example. A Wednesday check in for 4 nights is ok

Back to your original question; you need to know some things when renting from a Wyndham owner and you should be aware of others but you don't need to know every thing. Kinda like the sausage sandwich I had for lunch the other day I want to know that the meat packing plant and the restaurant is inspected on a regular basis but I don't need to know nor do I want to know the details of sausage making


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## antjmar (Jan 9, 2015)

ronparise said:


> You are wrong about a Wyndham owner having to book a full week. In our example. A Wednesday check in for 4 nights is ok
> 
> Back to your original question; you need to know some things when renting from a Wyndham owner and you should be aware of others but you don't need to know every thing. Kinda like the sausage sandwich I had for lunch the other day I want to know that the meat packing plant and the restaurant is inspected on a regular basis but I don't need to know nor do I want to know the details of sausage making



Ron, that was my advice since it is Christmas week at a ski resort and the unit he/she wants is  for  Sunday check ins only.  I imagine by Wednesday there wont be any rooms left. It will be "sold out" by the 1 week reservations that booked it on Sunday for the entire week.
But you have much more experience!


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## Vacationfuntips (Jan 9, 2015)

For this rental process - you have too much information - that you don't  really need to know.

All you need to do is find a Seller that is trustworthy and easy to work with.  Someone who has a good reputation.  Someone that has good communication skills and does what they say they will do.  Someone who you feel comfortable with in helping you secure the reservation that you want. Without the hassle.

Get you vacation details, dates and agreed on price in writing.  

Make the required payment(s) to secure the vacation.

Make your decision. Don't think about this anymore...just go and be happy that you have found someone to help you get what you want.  

FYI : Don't compare a 1 bedroom weekly rental to a 2 bedroom, 4 night stay.  You can't.  A 2 bedroom has more space and costs more in Prime Season.  

Once again, Good luck! 

Cynthia T.


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## ace2000 (Jan 9, 2015)

Vacationfuntips said:


> For this rental process - you have too much information - that you don't  really need to know.



I was thinking the exact same thing!


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## WinniWoman (Jan 9, 2015)

Vacationfuntips said:


> For this rental process - you have too much information - that you don't  really need to know.
> 
> All you need to do is find a Seller that is trustworthy and easy to work with.  Someone who has a good reputation.  Someone that has good communication skills and does what they say they will do.  Someone who you feel comfortable with in helping you secure the reservation that you want. Without the hassle.
> 
> ...



I didn't rent from an RCI weekly vacation person (whatever that is). I rented from a Smuggs weeks owner who wasn't going to use his week and had advertised it on the Smuggs' Owner Network Swap and rental site, on the Smuggs website and  developed by the resort itself. It was coordinated with the resort and completely legitimate.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I just have to decide now. I do not know the person so it will be just a intuition thing as far as that goes.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 9, 2015)

ronparise said:


> You are wrong about a Wyndham owner having to book a full week. In our example. A Wednesday check in for 4 nights is ok
> 
> Back to your original question; you need to know some things when renting from a Wyndham owner and you should be aware of others but you don't need to know every thing. Kinda like the sausage sandwich I had for lunch the other day I want to know that the meat packing plant and the restaurant is inspected on a regular basis but I don't need to know nor do I want to know the details of sausage making



LOL! You're right about the sausage!:rofl:


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## ronparise (Jan 9, 2015)

antjmar said:


> Ron, that was my advice since it is Christmas week at a ski resort and the unit he/she wants is  for  Sunday check ins only.  I imagine by Wednesday there wont be any rooms left. It will be "sold out" by the 1 week reservations that booked it on Sunday for the entire week.
> But you have much more experience!



You are right I didnt consider the reality of the situation, only the theory

Another reason to rent from an expert,  I always recommend that new rentors specialize, and the flip side is true too. If you are going to rent, rent from a specialist


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## Vacationfuntips (Jan 9, 2015)

Knowledge is power!

This is a link to the page in the 2014-2015 Club Wyndham Plus Directory for Smuggler's Notch Resort.  It may help you figure out what you are getting for the Wyndham points used to book your stay based upon room size, dates and location.

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/plus_membersdirectory1415/#/210

It tells which buildings are offered based upon points charts.  You can check what the required day of the week for check-in is allowed for Prime Season and for specific building categories.   Reservations can be made for 1 week, 3 nights or 4 nights during Prime Season.

I agree with Ron, when he says it is good to rent from an expert or someone who specializes.  However, if you are "in the know" and "do your homework", then you are one step ahead of the rest.  

Cynthia T.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 9, 2015)

Vacationfuntips said:


> Knowledge is power!
> 
> This is a link to the page in the 2014-2015 Club Wyndham Plus Directory for Smuggler's Notch Resort.  It may help you figure out what you are getting for the Wyndham points used to book your stay based upon room size, dates and location.
> 
> ...




Thanks, but I already know all the check-in days, etc. I have owned there since 1999, but I am a weeks owner and bought before Wyndham got involved with the resort. I also have no idea if this person is an "expert" or not but she says she can get me the dates and buildings so I would think she knows what to do. Once the confirmation is in my name that alleviates the worry about losing the unit, correct?


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## Vacationfuntips (Jan 9, 2015)

Let us all know how your rental booking works out?    

Wyndham posts some notes under the points charts for the different buildings regarding their allowed booking days.  It is hard to see unless you increase the magnification on the page, but it is there.  

Cynthia T.


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## Roger830 (Jan 9, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Thanks, but I already know all the check-in days, etc. I have owned there since 1999, but I am a weeks owner and bought before Wyndham got involved with the resort. I also have no idea if this person is an "expert" or not but she says she can get me the dates and buildings so I would think she knows what to do. Once the confirmation is in my name that alleviates the worry about losing the unit, correct?



Just because someones says she can make the reservation doesn't mean it will happen. I see two problems here. I assume that we are talking about week 52, 2015.

1. As a previous poster mentioned, if all of the available weeks are booked on Sunday, then on Wednesday, there won't be any availability unless your agent books a full week, cancels, then successfully rebooks for only 4 days. You should know if this is the process to be used.

2. You stated that it's a former weeks resort. If all of the points units are converted weeks, then only the owner of that week can book it in the 13-10 month window. If your agent is using the 10 month window, there could be very little availability.  Christmas is on Friday, so most owners would likely us that week starting Sunday. There could be very few converted weeks. Why would someone pay money to trade away a super prime ski week?

To avoid disappointment, you should know in detail how the reservation will be obtained.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 9, 2015)

Roger830 said:


> Just because someones says she can make the reservation doesn't mean it will happen. I see two problems here. I assume that we are talking about week 52, 2015.
> 
> 1. As a previous poster mentioned, if all of the available weeks are booked on Sunday, then on Wednesday, there won't be any availability unless your agent books a full week, cancels, then successfully rebooks for only 4 days. You should know if this is the process to be used.
> 
> ...



Week 51. Well, she is going to call in February at the 10 month window and ask for the dates and building I want. If nothing is available when she calls, then she can't book it anyway.I could ask her if she is booking a whole week or whatever...

The resort started off as a weeks resort, then an RCI points resort and now is Wyndham. There are still quite a number of weeks owners, as well as RCI points owners. But all new inventory is Wyndham. I wanted to go up the Wed before Xmas and leave the Sunday after XMAS.


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## Roger830 (Jan 10, 2015)

I would guess that you should have a good chance at the 10 month window with week 51. The only other consideration is you specified specific buildings. If those are newer points only units, I would think that would improve your chances.

The problem is with fixed week resorts, people with prime weeks don't convert them to points. This is very evident in Newport in the summer. But I had no problem booking one stranded Wednesday in December.


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## antjmar (Jan 10, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Week 51. Well, she is going to call in February at the 10 day window and ask for the dates and building I want.


. 

FYI online reservations open at 7am. Call Center 8AM ET.  I anticipate this week gone by 8:00. 
Ive booked presidents week without owning there. But I take ANY unit thats available at 7:00. By 7:05 nothing is available...


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## WinniWoman (Jan 10, 2015)

Roger830 said:


> Just because someones says she can make the reservation doesn't mean it will happen. I see two problems here. I assume that we are talking about week 52, 2015.
> 
> *1. As a previous poster mentioned, if all of the available weeks are booked on Sunday, then on Wednesday, there won't be any availability unless your agent books a full week, cancels, then successfully rebooks for only 4 days. You should know if this is the process to be used.*
> 
> ...



I still don't get this one. If she calls in Feb at the 10 month window and there are no week 51 weeks weeks available, then she can't get a Wed or a Sunday check-in. If some week 51 weeks ARE available, then she should be able to get the Wed check-in, a Sunday check-in or whatever. If no week 51 weeks are available, how could she book a full week in order to cancel down to 4 nights. Doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, the points owner agreed to my terms of the $100 deposit and then the confirmation in my name and then I pay the balance in full right away. Gave her a choice of 3 buildings. Should hopefully all work out.


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## scootr5 (Jan 10, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> I still don't get this one. If she calls in Feb at the 10 month window and there are no week 51 weeks weeks available, then she can't get a Wed or a Sunday check-in. If some week 51 weeks ARE available, then she should be able to get the Wed check-in, a Sunday check-in or whatever. If no week 51 weeks are available, how could she book a full week in order to cancel down to 4 nights. Doesn't make sense to me..




Points work differently than weeks. If you want to check in December 20th, you can make that reservation on February 20th. I believe you are looking for a 12/23 check in. That reservation can't be made until February 23rd, three full days after the entire week becomes available. There likely won't be any units left.

She could make a seven day reservation on 12/20, cancel it on 2/23 so the unit comes back into availability, and then book the 12/23 reservation. This will then leave her with some cancelled points to be used by the end of the year.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 10, 2015)

scootr5 said:


> Points work differently than weeks. If you want to check in December 20th, you can make that reservation on February 20th. I believe you are looking for a 12/23 check in. That reservation can't be made until February 23rd, three full days after the entire week becomes available. There likely won't be any units left.
> 
> She could make a seven day reservation on 12/20, cancel it on 2/23 so the unit comes back into availability, and then book the 12/23 reservation. This will then leave her with some cancelled points to be used by the end of the year.



Oh, ok. I get it now...Thanks!


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## vacationhopeful (Jan 10, 2015)

I get multiple inquiries with people telling me they are flying in on Fri (the first) and are leaving Sun (the ninth). Or they want a week from Wednesday to Wednesday (when the airfares are lower). And they want this mostly at the formerly Weeks resorts (which basicly still run on a WEEKS calendar in points).

The "smart" ones will also quote my ads with a Fri to Fri dates and the Sun to Sun dates --- telling me I have both weekends AND I should rent it to them at my ONE week price for 9 nights... They do NOT see that as being 2 week long reservations. AND that is WHAT they need.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 10, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> I get multiple inquiries with people telling me they are flying in on Fri (the first) and are leaving Sun (the ninth). Or they want a week from Wednesday to Wednesday (when the airfares are lower). And they want this mostly at the formerly Weeks resorts (which basicly still run on a WEEKS calendar in points).
> 
> The "smart" ones will also quote my ads with a Fri to Fri dates and the Sun to Sun dates --- telling me I have both weekends AND I should rent it to them at my ONE week price for 9 nights... They do NOT see that as being 2 week long reservations. AND that is WHAT they need.


 
LOL! Well, I mentioned to the owner about "the reserving on Sunday instead of Wed and then cancelling on Wed and re booking thing".. (PHEW!) and I haven't heard back from her yet as she is away right now, so not sure what her take on it all is yet. All I care is that she gets a unit (or 2 if my brother's family comes) for us. Why does everything have to be so complicated?


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## vacationhopeful (Jan 10, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> LOL! Well, I mentioned to the owner about "the reserving on Sunday instead of Wed and then cancelling on Wed *and re booking thing"..* (PHEW!) and I haven't heard back from her yet as she is away right now, so not sure what her take on it all is yet. All I care is that she gets a unit (or 2 if my brother's family comes) for us. Why does everything have to be so complicated?



What is so complicated? Timeshares are NOT hotels. And PRIME reservations do not come back always. And if this is near the USE YEAR ending (not all Wyndham contracts are calendar use year), those cancelled points might become lost or unrented or not bookable reservations.

Plus, many of those inquiries wanting a FRI to FRI week need to add the second FRI night and a second SAT... the paying renter divides the original weeks cost by 7 and multiples by 2 EXCEPT Wyndham charges 40% of the weeks' cost costs for those 2 nights and the Guest Certificate still adds another $99 onto the costs of 2 nights.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 10, 2015)

antjmar said:


> .
> 
> FYI online reservations open at 7am. Call Center 8AM ET.  I anticipate this week gone by 8:00.
> Ive booked presidents week without owning there. But I take ANY unit thats available at 7:00. By 7:05 nothing is available...



Well, that's disheartening....
 Are you saying I shouldn't bother to send a check?


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## WinniWoman (Jan 10, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> What is so complicated? Timeshares are NOT hotels. And PRIME reservations do not come back always. And if this is near the USE YEAR ending (not all Wyndham contracts are calendar use year), those cancelled points might become lost or unrented or not bookable reservations.
> 
> Plus, many of those inquiries wanting a FRI to FRI week need to add the second FRI night and a second SAT... the paying renter divides the original weeks cost by 7 and multiples by 2 EXCEPT Wyndham charges 40% of the weeks' cost costs for those 2 nights and the Guest Certificate still adds another $99 onto the costs of 2 nights.




Whatever- all this has nothing to do with my situation...


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## tschwa2 (Jan 10, 2015)

You may have answered this in an earlier post but I didn't see it.  How much does she want now?  And do you think you can find another reservation before the February date?  I really would expect a nominal (not more than $100) deposit for an unreserved future reservation.


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## antjmar (Jan 10, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Well, that's disheartening....
> Are you saying I shouldn't bother to send a check?


I am saying she should try to book online at 7am eastern time! 
A 2br deluxe is determined by # of points no need to call to request a "deluxe". By the time call center opens I think these units will be gone. I've never tried to book this week but I expect it to go quickly.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 10, 2015)

tschwa2 said:


> You may have answered this in an earlier post but I didn't see it.  How much does she want now?  And do you think you can find another reservation before the February date?  I really would expect a nominal (not more than $100) deposit for an unreserved future reservation.



She agreed to the $100 deposit -with a check dated 2/23. Once confirmation in my name, I would send the balance.

I don't know how I would find another reservation before then. i have a wish ad in and I check the Smuggs swap column, but it's so early


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## WinniWoman (Jan 10, 2015)

antjmar said:


> I am saying she should try to book online at 7am eastern time!
> A 2br deluxe is determined by # of points no need to call to request a "deluxe". By the time call center opens I think these units will be gone. I've never tried to book this week but I expect it to go quickly.[/QUOTE
> 
> Hmm...I see- instead of calling she should book on-line at 7am. The number of points will get me Sycamores, Aspens or Willows....OK. I will suggest to her. Thanks.


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## tschwa2 (Jan 10, 2015)

For a reservation you really want that is a very high demand holiday week, $100 for less than a month and a half doesn't sound unreasonable.  If she wanted the entire amount or even half while guaranteeing that she could get the reservation would be a problem for me.  Also if it were some random in season but non holiday week for which the reservation window hadn't opened but would in less than 2 months, I might be more inclined to wait until closer to the reservation booking window date before wanting to lock it in with a deposit.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 11, 2015)

tschwa2 said:


> For a reservation you really want that is a very high demand holiday week, $100 for less than a month and a half doesn't sound unreasonable.  If she wanted the entire amount or even half while guaranteeing that she could get the reservation would be a problem for me.  Also if it were some random in season but non holiday week for which the reservation window hadn't opened but would in less than 2 months, I might be more inclined to wait until closer to the reservation booking window date before wanting to lock it in with a deposit.



Right. Same with me. She originally did want the entire amount or 1/3 in payments, but I asked to just do the $100 and she agreed because, after all, if I don't pay her in full after she gets the confirmation in my name she could just cancel it anyway.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 11, 2015)

*Thank you everyone*

I want to thank everyone here for their valuable experience and advice. I spoke to the points owner and she called Wyndham and everything you have told me was spot on. She essentially is going to try to make the reservation on the 10 month day- told me not to even bother sending any money until she sees if she can get into the building we requested and then she will get the confirmation and I can send full payment if she is successful. Because of the check-in/check out days it only leaves 2 buildings I want as possibilities. I did agree to a one bedroom instead of 2 if necessary. Would love a 3 bedroom, but am sure that would be much too expensive.

Again, thanks for the very helpful learning experience. I feel much better now. I just hope she can make my wish happen!


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