# Cancel and Rebook - How prevalent?



## sharper3 (Nov 11, 2016)

I'm curious - how prevalent is "cancel and rebook" among average owners?  I'm not knocking anyone who's been able to make money renting timeshares -  quite the opposite, I think it's great.  However, the whole practice seems to put an average owner at a disadvantage as a bunch of availability is tied up in "backup" reservations for if the cancel and rebook fails.  Is my understanding of how it's done incorrect?

Just out of curiosity - what is Wyndham's stance on this?  Is this what's caused these "audits" I see threads about?


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## scootr5 (Nov 11, 2016)

sharper3 said:


> I'm curious - how prevalent is "cancel and rebook" among average owners?



It's only a benefit for VIP owners; if you are not VIP there is no discount inside of 60 days. Do you consider VIP "average"?


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## jjmanthei05 (Nov 11, 2016)

scootr5 said:


> It's only a benefit for VIP owners; if you are not VIP there is no discount inside of 60 days. Do you consider VIP "average"?



Since VIP is less than 10% of all ownership and I would peg the percent of VIP owners that actually cancel and rebook at 10% (on the high side). I don't think there is a significant portion of owners that do this. Now the owners that do it (usually renters), they do a lot of them. I think the backup reservations actually give regular owners an added shot at inventory as long as your looking for it. If I have 2 or 3 units when I only need 1 then within 60 days there will be units available that wouldn't be if someone hadn't held them. If there isn't anything available, you may still have a shot at getting something within 60 days where as if there was no cancel and rebook then if everything was booked at 9-10 months, most likely nothing would ever be available. 

Jason


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## ronparise (Nov 11, 2016)

jjmanthei05 said:


> Since VIP is less than 10% of all ownership and I would peg the percent of VIP owners that actually cancel and rebook at 10% (on the high side). I don't think there is a significant portion of owners that do this. Now the owners that do it (usually renters), they do a lot of them. I think the backup reservations actually give regular owners an added shot at inventory as long as your looking for it. If I have 2 or 3 units when I only need 1 then within 60 days there will be units available that wouldn't be if someone hadn't held them. If there isn't anything available, you may still have a shot at getting something within 60 days where as if there was no cancel and rebook then if everything was booked at 9-10 months, most likely nothing would ever be available.
> 
> Jason



Jason makes a good point when I make a studio reservation and a three bedroom to cancel rebook and upgrade and a second three bedroom as insurance, the end result is a deep discount for me and two reservations that go back available to the rest of the owners

But to the ops question; I was at last years annual meeting and there were a number of regular VIP owners (not mega renters) complaining about the difficulty doing the cancel and rebook thing. One guy in particular said that he lost several reservations this year. He believes that this is a benefit he is entitled to. After all, he paid over $200000 for what he owns

I think the bulk of these transactions are done by guys like me. But I think the majority of owners doing it are just regular guys


The recent account suspensions did not result from  cancel and rebook.  It was a different thing(s) altogether


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## ace2000 (Nov 11, 2016)

ronparise said:


> Jason makes a good point when I make a studio reservation and a three bedroom to cancel rebook and upgrade and a second three bedroom as insurance, the end result is a deep discount for me and two reservations that go back available to the rest of the owners



Guess that's one way to look at it... or the other viewpoint is that if you weren't doing the cancel-rebook, you probably wouldn't have booked both of them to start with, and thereby tying up the inventory.


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## ronparise (Nov 11, 2016)

ace2000 said:


> Guess that's one way to look at it... or the other viewpoint is that if you weren't doing the cancel-rebook, you probably wouldn't have booked both of them to start with, and thereby tying up the inventory.




How about the folks that can't plan their vacations a year in advance so they make two or three reservations.  Then when they confirm their time off, cancel the extras. It's the same thing. Reservations will still be tied up

But understand I'm not saying cancel and rebook is a good thing for the club.  It isn't and Wyndham will I'm sure address it. The point of my post is to say that more regular owners will be affected than mega renters


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## scootr5 (Nov 11, 2016)

ronparise said:


> But understand I'm not saying cancel and rebook is a good thing for the club.  It isn't and Wyndham will I'm sure address it.



If I remember correctly, the "discount" points are actually made up by Wyndham?

They will likely close the loophole because it's costing them money, not for any other altruistic reason.


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## Jan M. (Nov 11, 2016)

There are a lot of owners who do the cancel and rebook not just the mega renters.

When those units that are double booked come back into the system it means there is more inventory available for people like my husband and I whose jobs allow us to be very flexible in our travel plans and actually prefer being able to be more spontaneous or retired people who like us don't need or want to plan further ahead. So yes if people like Ron and other mega renters didn't double book, cancel and rebook there would be more inventory for people like you to book months out but then less for the other people like us who prefer booking closer in. It seems to balance out.

Some people have gotten the impression that it is the VIP owners and the owners who rent who are responsible for reservations being harder to find. I think there is more to take into consideration, a bigger picture. What I noticed in the Spring of 2015 was that Wyndham seemed to be taking a lot more inventory to sell than I ever remember seeing prior to that. And they started selling the inventory they took on Travelocity, Expedia and other sites. I also started seeing deals for stays on sites like Groupon, Living Social, Travelzoo. In the past two years I've noticed that Wyndham also hugely increased the amount of advertising for Extra Holidays and the program has really grown. Wyndham also brought World Mark and Shell into the fold. Also in the past couple of years the number of owners turning their accounts over to point managers has grown tremendously. The competition for the inventory has increased enormously.


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## Roger830 (Nov 11, 2016)

scootr5 said:


> If I remember correctly, the "discount" points are actually made up by Wyndham?
> .



This is something stated so often here that it is accepted as the truth.

It's my understanding that at 60 days prior to checkin, Wyndham can use available inventory for their own use. It seems logical that they could then make it available to vip members for a discount in points. Wyndham doesn't have to contribute anything.


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## scootr5 (Nov 11, 2016)

Roger830 said:


> This is something stated so often here that it is accepted as the truth.
> 
> It's my understanding that at 60 days prior to checkin, Wyndham can use available inventory for their own use. It seems logical that they could then make it available to vip members for a discount in points. Wyndham doesn't have to contribute anything.



Yes, but the "occupancy related expenses" must be paid:

11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use. In addition, to the extent more Points are available in the Plan than are allocated to Members other than Wyndham, Wyndham may sell or lease Points on such terms as Wyndham and the Trustee deem reasonable. The purchasers or lessees of such Points shall have such Membership rights as Wyndham and the Trustee deem appropriate.​
The question becomes "are he maintenance fees occupancy related expenses".


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## bnoble (Nov 11, 2016)

> Some people have gotten the impression that it is the VIP owners and the owners who rent who are responsible for reservations being harder to find. I think there is more to take into consideration, a bigger picture.


Indeed.  And, the *very* big picture is that travel demand is up, and so more owners are using their points to travel rather than depositing them to RCI or pooling them in the hopes of future travel and/or just letting them expire. Tightening inventory is not just a Wyndham problem. Nearly every mini-system is experiencing the same thing. Lord knows the DVC folks are nearly apoplectic over how hard it has become to get non-home-resort reservations during the peak fall/early winter period.


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## BellaWyn (Nov 11, 2016)

ronparise said:


> But understand I'm not saying cancel and rebook is a good thing for the club.  *It isn't* and Wyndham will I'm sure address it. The point of my post is to say that more regular owners will be affected than mega renters



Ron, can you please expand a little on this statement specifically related to why it isn't.



bnoble said:


> Lord knows the DVC folks are nearly _*apoplectic*_  over how hard it has become to get non-home-resort reservations during the peak fall/early winter period.



GTK it's not just Wyndham owners that are high drama.


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## ronparise (Nov 11, 2016)

BellaWyn said:


> Ron, can you please expand a little on this statement specifically related to why it isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> GTK it's not just Wyndham owners that are high drama.




When Im at a resort sharing a hottub and chatting with other owners; if I mention that im in the 3 bedroom presidential unit at half the studio price,  It bothers some folks, and worse than that when my guests say that they rented a unit from me for a bargain price it  really upsets the folks that just dropped $20000 on 105000 points

and witness the bitching that Co-Skier does here on Tug and ace2000's comment in this thread

And consider this... I can take a million  points and make 7 one bedroom reservations and 1 studio for  mardi gras weekend  60 days before check in I play my game and get all 8 reservations at half the studio price (360000 point in total leaving 640000 points from my million)  thenI use those 640000 points to make 6 reservations for Jazz Fest weekend which 60 days before check in i do it again and get all 6 at half the studio price leaving 424000 points out of my million which I will use for more  high value reservation

So whats wrong with that?    The discount was meant to put heads in beds, ie fill up the resorts at times of low occupancy. Instead Im using it to get multiple high value reservations. essentially cheating other owners. or at the very least giving them something to complain about


Wyndham wants a happy owner base, what I doing with cancel and rebook generates complaints, and thats not good for the club (or Wyndham)


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## BellaWyn (Nov 11, 2016)

ronparise said:


> When Im at a resort sharing a hottub and chatting with other owners; if I mention that im in the 3 bedroom presidential unit at half the studio price,  It bothers some folks, and worse than that when my guests say that they rented a unit from me for a bargain price it  really upsets the folks that just dropped $20000 on 105000 points
> 
> and witness the bitching that Co-Skier does here on Tug and ace2000's comment in this thread
> 
> ...



OK, thanks for putting effort into that explanation.  Still have questions:

1)* WHY do people feel the NEED to share their upgrade conquests in the hot tub with other owners? *What's up with that? That's just pure hubris and as an owner would completely dismiss any information as true & accurate coming out of the mouth of a person that wears their financial conquests so front & center.

2) *Was the discount ONLY intended to put "heads in beds?" * The promise of a discount, and potential upgrade, was also intended as a come-get-me sales tool that has worked very effectively for Wyndham.  The fact that high point owners have figured out how to work that to their advantage is a consequence that Wyndham had to realize would eventually happen and they have, as you have said before, allowed it to go on for years, ever since the inception of the VIP program.

3)* Won't there always be owners that will find some reason to complain about some element of the various WYN programs they have chosen NOT to participate in?* WYN chose to divide the ownership between the Haves & Have-Nots by creating VIP in the first place.  Don't believe the bulk of the ownership base is as frustrated with their ownerships as reflected here in this forum.  A very small percentage are TUG Members who tend to be somewhat over-exposed to the reality of ownership.  So, what percentage of a 600K+ membership base is actually complaining?  

4) * Why do people think getting a discount and upgrade is "cheating" when the system itself was designed to allow for both?*. WYN built it that way, they sell it that way, how is it actually cheating? 

There is a hidden value to having mega-renters and point managers remain active, both to the membership base and to WYN sales. Personally don't believe the cancel & rebook hurts either WYN or the ownership base as much as people think it does.  The small handful of informed Have-Nots will always hate it, the Haves that use it will be furious (aka apoplectic) if it disappears.  The mega-renters will find a way around it, as will the point managers.  But they will be less useful to the VIP's they serve if it disappears. * Getting rid of cancel & rebook will have a ripple down consequence that will eventually adversely effect the entire ownership base.*. Those complaining about it......  Be careful what you ask for.......  It's going to kick you in the ass.


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## ronparise (Nov 11, 2016)

BellaWyn said:


> OK, thanks for putting effort into that explanation.  Still have questions:
> 
> 1)* WHY do people feel the NEED to share their upgrade conquests in the hot tub with other owners? *What's up with that? That's just pure hubris and as an owner would completely dismiss any information as true & accurate coming out of the mouth of a person that wears their financial conquests so front & center.
> 
> ...



On another day I can make the argument that Cancel and Rebook doesnt hurt anyone. 

Wyndham however doesnt like it and thats all that counts. It is my belief that what they really dont like is that some folks have figured out how to profit from  renting Wyndham timeshares; profit  that they consider to be rightfully theirs. They know that the only thing that make large scale commercial renting work is the cancel and rebook trick, so I think they will do something to control it... what I dont know.


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## BellaWyn (Nov 11, 2016)

ronparise said:


> On another day I can make the argument that Cancel and Rebook doesnt hurt anyone.
> 
> Wyndham however doesnt like it and thats all that counts. It is my belief that what they really dont like is that some folks have figured out how to profit from  renting Wyndham timeshares; profit  that they consider to be rightfully theirs. They know that the only thing that make large scale commercial renting work is the cancel and rebook trick, so I think they will do something to control it... what I dont know.



And now we get to real crux of it....... lost profits from WYN's pocket. Meaning, whatever inventory the mega-renter is now using to make $$ will get pulled out of the system to be used for WYN rentals. So, as stated before, the entire membership base still looses.


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## VetteSteve (Nov 12, 2016)

BellaWyn said:


> And now we get to real crux of it....... lost profits from WYN's pocket. Meaning, whatever inventory the mega-renter is now using to make $$ will get pulled out of the system to be used for WYN rentals. So, as stated before, the entire membership base still looses.



Having been to several "Owner Updates", one of the sales tactics they push big time is the "cancel and rebook" pitch to make better use of the points. Buy more points and get double use of those points.  So Wyndham will have to decide whether it is a better sales tool pitching cancel and rebook or changing the practice.


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## vacationhopeful (Nov 12, 2016)

BellaWyn said:


> And now we get to real crux of it....... lost profits from WYN's pocket. Meaning, whatever inventory the mega-renter is now using to make $$ will get pulled out of the system to be used for WYN rentals. So, as stated before, the entire membership base still looses.



My thoughts exactly. The mega-renter has effected the division (Extra Holidays) bottom line ... but they also effect the Sales Department. Many guests who rent from 'megarenters' laugh (take the gift money & run) at the Wyndham Sales group--- getting bigger units, less planning, no buy in costs, no ongoing commitment, no cleaning costs, no HKs/RTs, etc. 

Plus, I have talked to many very verbal renters at the pools/Tiki bars ... telling me, "Why buy? Renting has no buyin costs, no ongoing costs, no planning a year in advance and I don't HAVE to go "STAY HERE" for 7 nights ... I can go cruising next vacation or Europe or stay home. Owning a timeshare is dumb/stupid.". 

They even understand that exchanging costs MORE money and takes MORE planning/time than calling a hotel and booking something which can be cancelled without an issue. And people do cancel timeshare stays (days/hours before checkin) ... and TOTALLY expect all their money back (despite any contract they signed) because exceptions MUST always apply to them.


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## spackler (Nov 12, 2016)

VetteSteve said:


> Having been to several "Owner Updates", one of the sales tactics they push big time is the "cancel and rebook" pitch to make better use of the points. Buy more points and get double use of those points.  So Wyndham will have to decide whether it is a better sales tool pitching cancel and rebook or changing the practice.



Even if Wyndham takes away cancel and rebook, the sales force will still push it as a benefit.  New owners will learn the reality long after the recession period is over.


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## ronparise (Nov 12, 2016)

spackler said:


> Even if Wyndham takes away cancel and rebook, the sales force will still push it as a benefit.  New owners will learn the reality long after the recession period is over.



The benefit  is the discount. And that won't change.  They will promote it just like they promote RCI last calls.   

As you say, the reality is that the only stuff that's available is the stuff no one else wants


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## happyhopian (Nov 12, 2016)

scootr5 said:


> If I remember correctly, the "discount" points are actually made up by Wyndham?
> 
> They will likely close the loophole because it's costing them money, not for any other altruistic reason.



I predict that they will NEVER close this 'hole'. This is the number 1 reason for VIP. I cannot tell you how many sales presentations/updates I have attended prior to being VIP and in EVERY instance - without exception - this was the number one selling point of a current owner to upgrade.

I cannot fathom that they would get rid of this benefit seeing that it makes them much more money than it cost but if I', wrong, what might others think the next number 1 selling point would be under the current system if they got rid of c/b discount points inside 60 days?


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## ronparise (Nov 12, 2016)

happyhopian said:


> I predict that they will NEVER close this 'hole'. This is the number 1 reason for VIP. I cannot tell you how many sales presentations/updates I have attended prior to being VIP and in EVERY instance - without exception - this was the number one selling point of a current owner to upgrade.
> 
> I cannot fathom that they would get rid of this benefit seeing that it makes them much more money than it cost but if I', wrong, what might others think the next number 1 selling point would be under the current system if they got rid of c/b discount points inside 60 days?





Worldmark doesn't have a discount program. Wyndham seems to do ok selling it. Their favorite pitch seems to be the ability to use credits For things other than vacations at the resorts. So maybe they could do the same thing at club Wyndham. They have an association with a cruise line now. 

The average Wyndham owner has something like 250000 points I don't think the VIP sales are are a big part of the Average Wyndham salesmans income. In fact the typical VIP owner doesn't get there all at once. They reach that level in several smaller sales. The point is that there are relatively few million point sales and that most sales are for less than 300000 points And the salesmen really don't need cancel and rebook to make sales. they will sell VIP to the status seekers

Now consider ovation   In the past Wyndham had to buy or build the resorts before they could sell any points.and there was a ton of corporate money tied up for a long time before the resort was built and they could start selling. 16% was their target for the cost of goods sold. Now with ovation the cost of goods sold is zero. I'm thinking they are making so much money reselling all these contracts, that they don't need as many upgrades to VIP and they won't have to promote a loophole to make sales


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## BellaWyn (Nov 13, 2016)

ronparise said:


> *...they will sell VIP to the status seekers*



That statement is grossly overstated. You cannot possibly presume to know all the various motivations people have had to purchase VIP or what pressures were brought to bear at the time of the sale on the owners.  MANY VIP owners purchased simply to get a better "stretch" on the points to maximize the number of holidays they could take with and for their families. The stretch included both discount AND upgrade, always based on availability.  Status has nothing to do with those criteria.



ronparise said:


> Worldmark doesn't have a discount program. Wyndham seems to do ok selling it.



Big difference in how Worldmark The Club grew their ownership base vs how Wyndham has grown theirs. Also huge volume differences in the ownership base and number of properties. Location of WM product also influences the sale.  Worldmark built a tiered benefits system into their program a long time ago and it is a completely different structure.  Comparing the two systems is apples and oranges. The commonality is " Wyndham Managed."




ronparise said:


> Now consider ovation.....


Wyndham has been saving on the COG long before Ovation came into play. When CWA was introduced it was on the back of the R.E. downturn where a good portion of the defaulted deeds were taken back by the resorts, "sold" to the CWA trust for $1/ea so that sales could then recycle the unattached points as CWA contracts.  It cost the resorts and owners of those resorts so that WYN could report a low COG on their FS's.


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## vacationhopeful (Nov 13, 2016)

BellaWyn said:


> <snip>
> 
> Wyndham has been saving on the COG long before Ovation came into play. When CWA was introduced it was on the back of the R.E. downturn where a good portion of the defaulted deeds were taken back by the resorts, "sold" to the CWA trust for $1/ea so that sales could then recycle the unattached points as CWA contracts.  It cost the resorts and owners of those resorts so that WYN could report a low COG on their FS's.



The defaulted deeds ... foreclosed on with all legal costs paid along with all unpaid MFs by each resort's HOA. The HOAs ... controlled by Wyndham employees ... could not sell any deeds. MFs went up for the paying owners, Wyndham got voting control of the HOAs, and "fixed week 7 day" stay resorts became more motel like (with higher HOA operating costs ... housekeeping & wear & tear). 

Resort owners (CWP & F/W) think & act different than 'Club Membership' .. IMHO. They directly paid for the furniture, stayed in the same unit each visit (F/W), developed friendships with other owners (their weekly neighbors) and thought of the staff as part of their family & friends. 

I understand, CWA did solve the issue regarding the low season ownership MFs payment and occupancy...for the older F/W resorts. But there is a cost to the older owners ... both financial and personal.


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## happyhopian (Nov 13, 2016)

ronparise said:


> The average Wyndham owner has something like 250000 points I don't think the VIP sales are are a big part of the Average Wyndham salesmans income. In fact the typical VIP owner doesn't get there all at once. They reach that level in several smaller sales. The point is that there are relatively few million point sales and that most sales are for less than 300000 points And the salesmen really don't need cancel and rebook to make sales. they will sell VIP to the status seekers



Two contrarian points to your statements which I am not sure I understand. First worldmark does not do as well as Wyndham in sales according to the few sales reps I have spoken with. I would not compare the bulky Wyndham product to worldmark in a different tier. Second you didn't offer what would be Wyndham's pitch to VIP upgrade sales if they took away point discounts. VIP is their poster. They tell every owner 'this is where you want to be'. It is the fully loaded lexus, though most buy the lower model - it is the one that catches every eye and for which they base all comparisons to. I do not think anyone cares enough about status to spend 100k with a timeshare company and without the VIP point discounts they have nothing of value in VIP and I simply do not see another upside. Look - no one strives to be a million miler just for the cool colored card. They want the ability to get on the plane first, get discount booking points and free upgrades. Sound familiar? Heck I would just rent the points AND it would send aftermarket points prices WAY UP as the only downside is no VIP. Who would ever again buy developer points? 

Ron you're a great guy and I might agree with your inclination that Wyndham could void themselves of the c/b issue if someone could point out to me a benefit that would be used as the replacement lead selling point to upgrades. To state that people will spend hundreds of thousands for 'status' is wrong and there is absolutely no proof of this in any other model. In every VIP instance, there are significant benefits that can be applied to the value. That might well apply to reserve where the units are better but in EVERY sales pitch I have been to, every video, every update VIP and discounts has been the leading push. All those 250,000 contracts are simply the price of admission on the way to a life time of upgrade pitches about how much better life is as a vip with point discounts.

Also, let us all not forget the impact of removing or changing the VIP program rules. Wyndham has the ability to change anything in VIP at any time with no remuneration. This we can agree on but I also hope that we can agree that for every action comes an equal and opposite reaction. So Wyndham has to calculate that cost against the other. Do they lose mega renters? Do they lose potential sales to new owners from said mega renters who send in fresh meat? Can they quickly resale 1 billion points if they make the market untenable for businesses? Are those points held in names or llc's (Wyndham allowed this several years back. I know mine are how many others are? Are they paid for free and clear? Who's going to replace the MF on 1 billion or more points?

Many have stated that Wyndham will just expand into the rental market while I agree, I think they want both. Wyndham wants 100% occupancy at every resort all the time. It is the mechanism which feeds leads into the sales system. What they don't want is the overhead attached to that. Mega-Owners in the rental market are providing Wyndham a very valuable service - putting sales leads in the system while also paying MF on their product. IF Wyndham takes this over they may well see an increase in revenue - but an increase in their inventory on their rental channels might also churn prices in those segments. As a corporation they will not engage the Ebay/craigslist/homeaway market as individual sellers do (tell me who is and why they would take on that liability).

Since I have been an owner people have complained about CB - honestly since before I was an owner from my days reading here. CB wasn't removed when folks first started complaining about it and the volume isn't any louder today than it was 4 years ago or longer. The new reservation system that was going to 'put an end to CB' has come and gone and come in many fashions but they larger premise has been to better track points. 

Without the 'total overhaul' (which is rumored to have been a failure) they have implemented many changes on the booking system. They have changed the return of points to contracts as opposed to cancelled points. They have been able to alter the return of cancelled units to the system. They have been able to alter inventory and options on a per user basis. They have been able to collect meta-data on owner bookings to feed the aforementioned algorithms.

Wyndham according to the stock price and latest update is doing just fine. There are lots of complaints in their world but I hear nothing about CB being one they want to get into and while it might seem like a simple fix to many - it has serious consequences I cannot imaging Wyndham will ever move into. Ultimately it will come to this for any major corporation - is the risk worth the reward. This would be a VERY risky venture and Wyndham has always played the risk averse angle.

Think about this -- does Delta airlines care that paying passengers are pissed off that they can't get free upgrades, or flight availability because VIP travelers took up inventory with free miles or got to pick the best seats at no additional cost? No they don't but you can bet your bottom dollar that Delta customers get pissed about it. I listened to a guy at the airport waylay a check-in associate about luggage fees after watching two people skip the line of 70 people, to drop off three bags each at no charge after he waiting an hour to pay $200 for his bags. What we are witnessing here is just the cost of doing business.IMHO

If they change it I am gone. It will make my resale worth more since no one will care about VIP status any longer and resales will be the way of the future. I will become a full time customer to many of my friends on here and rent through ebay at already discounted pricing as a result of inventory movements. Everyone likes their timeshare for different reasons. I like mine because I get discounts with 2 million points I give them away to folks to use and bank the rest. I'm not a mega renter, though I have rented.


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## ronparise (Nov 13, 2016)

BellaWyn said:


> That statement is grossly overstated. You cannot possibly presume to know all the various motivations people have had to purchase VIP or what pressures were brought to bear at the time of the sale on the owners.  MANY VIP owners purchased simply to get a better "stretch" on the points to maximize the number of holidays they could take with and for their families. The stretch included both discount AND upgrade, always based on availability.  Status has nothing to do with those criteria.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



and dont forget WAAM, now known as "just in time inventory delivery" or some such thing. Bonnet Creek was the last resort built from the ground up. The new model is Clearwater where they get someone else to do the development and then buy condos one at a time "just in time" as they are sold by the sales force. 


what you say makes a lot of sense, and is completely logical but who ever said the decisions that come out of Wyndhams executive ranks are always sensible  or even logical. Another thread here introduced the concept of 'silos" to me (in business A mind-set present in some companies when certain departments or sectors do not wish to share information with others in the same company.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/silo-mentality.htm

I always knew it as "the right hand doesnt know what the left hand is doing" and the fact is the executives that have called for the end of cancel and rebook have no idea of how sales uses it and sales have no idea about whats going to hit them... When I was at National Harbor recently I talked to the sales manager (outside on the street. Im not allowed in the sales room) and he didnt know about all of us that had been suspended



You have the benefit of good sense and logic when you say what you say. I  I can tell you for a fact (whether it makes sense or not... Im not guessing) that they really dont like cancel/rebook, and they blame that loophole for the rise of the mega renters and they really dont like us. (strangely they seem to have less problems with the points managers than the guys that do it themselves) I believe that they are seriously going to go after  large scale commercial renting and will cite the disclosures (page 394 of the directory) specifically the clause that says " The program is for a Members own personal use and enjoyment and not for any commercial use"  and " WVR ....reserves the right  to restrict services to members who engage in....manipulation of the program rules to gain unfair advantage..."

Somebody said (I think it was you) that i have done pretty well as a mega renter by trusting my gut.  My biggest "gut" decision was the one where I decided to "go big or go home" with no exit plan... My gut is telling me now that its time to get out while the getting is good.  

So you can trust your good sense and logic.. Im going to continue to trust my gut and look for something else to keep me busy as I enter my 8th decade


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## BellaWyn (Nov 13, 2016)

happyhopian said:


> To state that people will spend hundreds of thousands for 'status' is wrong and there is absolutely no proof of this in any other model. In every VIP instance, there are significant benefits that can be applied to the value. *That might well apply to reserve* where the units are better but in EVERY sales pitch I have been to, every video, every update VIP and discounts has been the leading push. All those 250,000 contracts are simply the price of admission on the way to a life time of upgrade pitches about how much better life is as a vip with point discounts.



Does not apply to Reserve owners either.


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## Roger830 (Nov 13, 2016)

happyhopian said:


> If they change it I am gone. It will make my resale worth more since no one will care about VIP status any longer and resales will be the way of the future. I will become a full time customer to many of my friends on here and rent through ebay at already discounted pricing as a result of inventory movements.



If cancel and rebook is curtailed, it might be better to keep your points.

Every Wyndham unit that I rented on ebay for less than $100/day was booked at a 50% discount in points. Each time I received a guest certificate from Wyndham which showed the number of points used and the member's name. They were all different member's names each time even though the ebay seller was the same. 

Without cancel-rebook, there won't be those low cost bargains.


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## BellaWyn (Nov 13, 2016)

ronparise said:


> So you can trust your good sense and logic.. Im going to continue to trust my gut and look for something else to keep me busy as I enter my 8th decade



Still applaud the successes you have made from going with your gut (yep, me that said it, still believe it.) Nor do I question that the under-informed WYN corporate SILO executives are wanting to put a kibosh on the C&B.  

It's the overstated sweeping generalizations, lopsided comparisons, and somewhat misleading analysis that prompt clarification. There are a lot of new owners that read these forums that perceive, that by the sheer volume of your participation, your voice is near gospel accurate.  To date, the bulk of this rhetoric is all still speculation and not yet gospel.

Also, it makes no sense why WYN would perceive point managers as any less threatening.  Still a type of mega-renter, except using VIP owner contracts to facilitate their business model.


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## vacationhopeful (Nov 13, 2016)

BellaWyn said:


> ....
> Also, it makes no sense why WYN would perceive point managers as any less threatening.  Still a type of mega-renter, except using VIP owner contracts to facilitate their business model.



Points managers will not go to resorts to talk to fellow guests or start a class action law suit or tell the guests to "take the cash and not buy" via owner's updates. Those (point manager) guests rent on price via web sites. Direct owner rentals might be more personal and hence, might be more bias ... 'buy resale only' ... or more educated in the Wyndham product and resale pricing.


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## ronparise (Nov 13, 2016)

happyhopian said:


> Two contrarian points to your statements which I am not sure I understand. First worldmark does not do as well as Wyndham in sales according to the few sales reps I have spoken with. I would not compare the bulky Wyndham product to worldmark in a different tier. Second you didn't offer what would be Wyndham's pitch to VIP upgrade sales if they took away point discounts. VIP is their poster. They tell every owner 'this is where you want to be'. It is the fully loaded lexus, though most buy the lower model - it is the one that catches every eye and for which they base all comparisons to. I do not think anyone cares enough about status to spend 100k with a timeshare company and without the VIP point discounts they have nothing of value in VIP and I simply do not see another upside. Look - no one strives to be a million miler just for the cool colored card. They want the ability to get on the plane first, get discount booking points and free upgrades. Sound familiar? Heck I would just rent the points AND it would send aftermarket points prices WAY UP as the only downside is no VIP. Who would ever again buy developer points?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As I said in another post, you may be right, and as a salesman for the last 60 years Im sure you are, but I also know it doesnt make any difference. The way I see it is that certain of us owners (those of us that have been suspended) have embarrassed Wyndham, and they are going to get their revenge.. That may be petty and vindictive and have consequences that they havent thought  of, but Im convinced that its happening. It makes no sense to me either and I hope Im wrong, Im just telling you what i see. 

Even now the VIP program is sold by appealing to the prospects emotions, not their intelligence or logic. Even with the discounts buying VIP does not logically make any sense. Its so much cheaper to buy twice as many points on the secondary market. That information and advice is easy to find on the internet.  So how do I explain the success of Wyndham sales  in the face of that fact?..  They lie and cheat and omit certain important facts in their presentations. and thats going to continue with or without cancel and rebook.  Discounts and upgrades will still exist, and the sales force will always be able to uses them to appeal to the prospects greed, and I think hunger for status. 

You may be right that Sales needs some tangible benefit to get someone to upgrade to VIP, but I dont think so, Remember the folks that upgrade to vip are the same folks that bought developer points to begin with. And that makes no sense either. I mean why would someone spend $20000 to buy 105000 points when they can buy the same thing on the secondary market for next to nothing, I dont know whats in the kool-aid, but these folks drink it. and Im convinced that they will continue to buy

and dont bet against Voyager. Geoff Richards promised it would be ready by May.. Some owners are already using it, looking for bugs

By the way Im not suggesting that Wyndham will do away with Cancel and rebook, I mean it will always be possible to cancel, and it will always be possible to book available inventory. I relly dont think they will attack it directly, rather they will make it so we cant count on it every time, by introducing a wait list, or some random delay between canceling a reservation and seeing it in inventory

heres what I think is a more likely scenario . Enforce the rule that says vip benefits apply only to vip eligible points ie points bought from the developer. That would kill me. I have 1,000,000 vip eligible points but in the same account over 10 million points bought on the secondary market. Now VIP benefits extend to all my points, Change that and im in trouble. 
Do this and sales can still tout the cancel and rebook strategy, and points managers can still do their thing with multiple small accounts, but guys like me that wholesale points to the points managers will be brought to our knees (and so will the points managers that depend on our vip eligible points) 

You are absolutely right that folks have been complaining about cancel and rebook for a long time, and they havent done anything.. But the recent suspensions mess has brought it front and center> and Wyndham sees it as a problem that they have to fix...(at least thats what I see )  and as you say Wyndhams stock price is doing just fine, I know Club Wyndham  is a big part of that, but its just one part of the Wyndham organization.  If sales drop a little in Club Wyndham, maybe they can franchise a couple of new Ramada inns to make up the difference. or more likely roll out the 5 year timeshare lease program that I keep hearing about


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## bogey21 (Nov 13, 2016)

Ron, I applaud your dispassionate analysis of this.  As a non Wyndham owner I think you are right on.

George


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 13, 2016)

ronparise said:


> Heres what I think is a more likely scenario . Enforce the rule that says vip benefits apply only to vip eligible points ie points bought from the developer. That would kill me. I have 1,000,000 vip eligible points but in the same account over 10 million points bought on the secondary market. Now VIP benefits extend to all my points, Change that and im in trouble.
> Do this and sales can still tout the cancel and rebook strategy, and points managers can still do their thing with multiple small accounts, but guys like me that wholesale points to the points managers will be brought to our knees (and so will the points managers that depend on our vip eligible points) re lease program that I keep hearing about



If I were Wyndham that would be my #1 objective.   "Fix" this and I think everything else takes care of itself. Cancel/rebook would go WAY down,  rental prices would go up, etc, etc. 

It has always amazed me that this is how things work today.  How could anyone complain if WYN figured out a way to stop it? Many of us would have to re-strategize how we do business.  And with the attitude 'it was good while it lasted but we knew it would end some day'.


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## ronparise (Nov 13, 2016)

BellaWyn said:


> Still applaud the successes you have made from going with your gut (yep, me that said it, still believe it.) Nor do I question that the under-informed WYN corporate SILO executives are wanting to put a kibosh on the C&B.
> 
> It's the overstated sweeping generalizations, lopsided comparisons, and somewhat misleading analysis that prompt clarification. There are a lot of new owners that read these forums that perceive, that by the sheer volume of your participation, your voice is near gospel accurate.  To date, the bulk of this rhetoric is all still speculation and not yet gospel.
> 
> Also, it makes no sense why WYN would perceive point managers as any less threatening.  Still a type of mega-renter, except using VIP owner contracts to facilitate their business model.







All the overstated sweeping generalizations, lopsided comparisons, and somewhat misleading analysis, came after the fact and is my attempt to justify my gut reaction and  what Im about to do (execute my exit strategy)

Im a little overwhelmed by your statement, "There are a lot of new owners that read these forums that perceive, that by the sheer volume of your participation, your voice is near gospel accurate". It is important to note however, that I have been  almost always gospel accurate


look  back on my history here and you will see, I think, that almost all the time Im just reciting facts easily verified by reading the "book" and when I hazard a guess about what coming. I make a logical argument to get me there based on the facts.  I dont think I have ever advised that anyone take any action based on what I say or guesses I make, and I have never suggested that anyone do what I do. and Im not suggesting that now. Im just sharing what I see coming. I may be wrong, but I dont think so

All Im trying to say is that I have consulted my crystal ball and have embarked on a course change for myself... I am in no way suggesting anyone follow me into the abyss.


You will notice that my crystal ball has turned red and angry. It seems to demand action


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## henley1 (Nov 13, 2016)

Sandi Bo said:


> If I were Wyndham that would be my #1 objective.   "Fix" this and I think everything else takes care of itself. Cancel/rebook would go WAY down,  rental prices would go up, etc, etc.
> 
> 
> I've heard it said here and elsewhere that rental prices would go up if cancel/rebook were eliminated.  But wouldn't wyndham rentals have to be the only game in town or at least a significant portion of the vacation market for this to be true?  If prices for wyndham rentals go up, won't people just move to the next-best-priced comparable vacation available?
> ...


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## BellaWyn (Nov 13, 2016)

ronparise said:


> heres what I think is a more likely scenario . Enforce the rule that says vip benefits apply only to vip eligible points ie points bought from the developer. That would kill me. I have 1,000,000 vip eligible points but in the same account over 10 million points bought on the secondary market. Now VIP benefits extend to all my points, Change that and im in trouble.
> Do this and sales can still tout the cancel and rebook strategy, and points managers can still do their thing with multiple small accounts, but guys like me that wholesale points to the points managers will be brought to our knees (and so will the points managers that depend on our vip eligible points)



Not a wholly unreasonable fix and apparently would solve the most critical conflict for WYN.  Good for you to be pro-active enough to help WYN out by explaining to them on the internet the most expeditious way to undermine guys in your situation.  

If this happened, then the KoolAid drinkers could go back to living in their necessary bubble and the non-KoolAid drinkers can get back to only complaining about not getting KoolAid for free with the aftermarket ownership. 

Problem solved.  

-----
J832


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## frankf3 (Nov 13, 2016)

*Cancel & Rebook, VIP discounts: Wyndham's intent?*

I considered writing a post like this in the long thread about frozen accounts.  I didn't because doing so felt to me like it could come across as insensitive.  I get it that a lot of posters on TUG have built businesses based on owning Wyndham points and renting timeshare stays out.  To open this post I want to be clear that I have nothing against that (in fact on the contrary, I have a huge amount of respect for anyone who goes into business for themselves, has a vision,  takes the risks and works hard to make it successful).   It seems the frozen accounts are due to problems in Wyndham's systems (IT) rather than being due to use or abuse of cancel and rebook.   I also understand that Wyndham sales positions cancel and rebook as a benefit for VIP ownership.   But anyone on TUG knows that timeshare sales people are often misleading if not outright lying. So, what is Wyndham's true intent around granting of certain VIP benefits, particularly points discounts and upgrades within 60 days of reservation and can use of these benefits ever be abusive?

Clearly Wyndham intended to offer VIP owners the valuable benefit of being able to reserve inventory that is still available within 60 days (or 45 / 30) days of check-in at significant points discounts.  

Is creation of that available inventory abuse of the system?  Cancel and rebook makes units unavailable to any owner who actually wants to use that stay (since it inherently requires reservations of at least 2 units and probably often 3, where the owner intends to use only 1).

Despite the fact sales teach new VIP owners how to game the system, that's not a published benefit.  The discounts are, but holding multiple reservations so that you can cancel one for a larger unit and upgrade from a studio to that unit at a discount from 50% of the studio points value is not the intention of the benefit because it is not documented that way.   It's an abusive trick (again, fully acknowledging that sales people, who are recognized for misleading and even lying to get the sale have touted this).

There is an example that illustrates this from a different but related industry.  The airlines.   Airlines (at least in the US, including American, Delta and United) offer free first class upgrades to their highest VIP customers on a space available basis.  This is a great benefit, however it's only intended a a perk offered free when the airline doesn't sell all first class seats for a given flight.   Creation of "available first class inventory" would not be acceptable to the airlines and would result in punishment.   Many frequent flyers have heard of such a case (you can google this for the details).  American airlines once had a customer who routinely reserved multiple first class, fully refundable seats and an economy ticket.  He cancelled the first class reservations hours before the flight and upgraded from economy to first, thus often only paying for an economy seat and flying in first.  That is a benefit the airline offered him.  But he put his thumb too hard on the scales, intentionally preventing American from selling the first class seats to a customer who wanted them and was willing to pay the normal price.   American rescinded his membership in their frequent flyer program and cancelled all of the points he accumulated.

Holding a unit an owner has no intention to use at the price it's reserved at is inherently abuse.   That owner is preventing other owners who are willing to pay full price from using their points for that unit.  Then creating discount eligible and upgradeable inventory furthers the abuse.  

It's one thing to say Wyndham offers generous discounts to VIPs on available units close to check in.  That's a nice benefit.   It's a completely different story if that inventory is created by holding those units at full price just to cancel and create available inventory to game the system and get a discount plus an upgrade.

I really appreciate how many VIP owners post here, especially Ron and a few others who share their extensive knowledge.  I've had offline contact with a couple of owners who were in all cases very nice.  I hope this isn't offensive as I believe everyone here has just done what Wyndham sales showed them (or what at least figured out the loophole on their own and exploited it, but not with any intent to harm anyone else).  My view is this is on Wyndham.  But cancel and rebook can easily be curtailed with some policy clarification and system changes.   And it should be limited so that VIP owners can still avail their discounts and upgrades when available as intended.  They just should not be able to manufacture the available inventory.


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## BellaWyn (Nov 13, 2016)

bogey21 said:


> Ron, I applaud your dispassionate analysis of this.  As a non Wyndham owner I think you are right on.
> George



The crystal ball is red.    Not that dispassionate.


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## OutSkiing (Nov 13, 2016)

ronparise said:


> heres what I think is a more likely scenario . Enforce the rule that says vip benefits apply only to vip eligible points ie points bought from the developer. That would kill me. I have 1,000,000 vip eligible points but in the same account over 10 million points bought on the secondary market. Now VIP benefits extend to all my points, Change that and im in trouble.
> Do this and sales can still tout the cancel and rebook strategy, and points managers can still do their thing with multiple small accounts, but guys like me that wholesale points to the points managers will be brought to our knees (and so will the points managers that depend on our vip eligible points)


This makes the most sense.  Allowing resale points in an account to 'piggyback' on the account's VIP status has just been a convenience to Wyndham IT not having to implement a more difficult algorithm IMO.

And there is one benefit to the 'Wyndham ecosystem' that points managers provide. They provide a way for VIP platinum owners to break even or make a little profit on all those direct purchase points they own in years when they can't travel that much. As well as bringing in more 'red meat' for Wyndham sales. If Wyndham isn't as annoyed at points managers this might be why.  

Sounds like it might cut back on points manager business if their accounts are bloated with resale points.

Bob


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## ronparise (Nov 13, 2016)

OutSkiing said:


> This makes the most sense.  Allowing resale points in an account to 'piggyback' on the account's VIP status has just been a convenience to Wyndham IT not having to implement a more difficult algorithm IMO.
> 
> And there is one benefit to the 'Wyndham ecosystem' that points managers provide. They provide a way for VIP platinum owners to break even or make a little profit on all those direct purchase points they own in years when they can't travel that much. As well as bringing in more 'red meat' for Wyndham sales. If Wyndham isn't as annoyed at points managers this might be why.
> 
> ...



Again, trusting my gut, I think, at least for now, Wyndham will be concentrating their efforts working to end large scale commercial renting and there is no question that those of us that fall into this category have as few VIP eligible points as possible and as you say piggy back millions of points on top of them

The small operators that that have only VIP eligible points will, I think be tolerated. and points managers that serve this group will probably be ok too

This has happened before (before my time) The story was related here on tug about one mega renter that was put out of business with the new rules that prevented owner to owner transfer of points, guest fees, and transaction fees A buy named Bill Spearman wrote about it in Timesharing Today


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## am1 (Nov 13, 2016)

I do not have faith in their ability to be able to separate the 2.  Even if they could it would be at least a 3 year lag time before they can enforce it.


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## happyhopian (Nov 14, 2016)

ronparise said:


> My gut is telling me now that its time to get out while the getting is good.
> 
> So you can trust your good sense and logic.. Im going to continue to trust my gut and look for something else to keep me busy as I enter my 8th decade



Ron I wish you well in your future. Will you be listing your holdings here or on ebay. I might be interested in buying some of your assets. Do you have a timeline?


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## ronparise (Nov 14, 2016)

happyhopian said:


> Ron I wish you well in your future. Will you be listing your holdings here or on ebay. I might be interested in buying some of your assets. Do you have a timeline?



Thank you

no


sorry no


yes


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## happyhopian (Nov 14, 2016)

ronparise said:


> Thank you
> 
> no
> 
> ...



If you are exiting then how might one who is interested in your assets make an offer on some of them or is this something you are contemplating and we should stay tuned?


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 14, 2016)

am1 said:


> I do not have faith in their ability to be able to separate the 2.  Even if they could it would be at least a 3 year lag time before they can enforce it.



I don't disagree - however.... they've got to be able to manage points correctly if they are ever going to fix this system.


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## tschwa2 (Nov 14, 2016)

The low tech way would be to require non vip eligible points to be in a separate account from VIP eligible points and possibly to waive the minimum program fee (or not) if one or both of the accounts don't meet the requirement separately.  

Perhaps manually (call in) they could allow a one way transfer from VIP eligible to non VIP eligible account if additional points were needed for a single reservation.  

While they're at it they could require that all the deeds be titled the same to be in one account or have those separated or require the $299 per deed to make them the same.


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## vacationhopeful (Nov 14, 2016)

Sandi Bo said:


> I don't disagree - however.... they've got to be able to manage points correctly if they are ever going to fix this system.



Wyndham's management comes out of the marketing/sales groups. Computer systems would be low on the budget "totem pole" ... and might be a very hard sell if it effects the budgets of more (politically connected) important departments. 

The outside auditors is who ALL effected owners should be contacting with complaints. After all, Wyndham points are the internal monetary-like unit for using the resorts ... and maybe how money to fund the bills at the resorts?


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## ronparise (Nov 14, 2016)

tschwa2 said:


> The low tech way would be to require non vip eligible points to be in a separate account from VIP eligible points and possibly to waive the minimum program fee (or not) if one or both of the accounts don't meet the requirement separately.
> 
> Perhaps manually (call in) they could allow a one way transfer from VIP eligible to non VIP eligible account if additional points were needed for a single reservation.
> 
> While they're at it they could require that all the deeds be titled the same to be in one account or have those separated or require the $299 per deed to make them the same.



they already have a limit of 40 contracts per account


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## ronparise (Nov 14, 2016)

happyhopian said:


> If you are exiting then how might one who is interested in your assets make an offer on some of them or is this something you are contemplating and we should stay tuned?




I wont say any more at this point, except to say you can buy the same stuff I have in the same way I did it... on ebay


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## ronparise (Nov 14, 2016)

vacationhopeful said:


> Wyndham's management comes out of the marketing/sales groups. Computer systems would be low on the budget "totem pole" ... and might be a very hard sell if it effects the budgets of more (politically connected) important departments.
> 
> The outside auditors is who ALL effected owners should be contacting with complaints. After all, Wyndham points are the internal monetary-like unit for using the resorts ... and maybe how money to fund the bills at the resorts?



not entirely true. Marc Johnson came out of Finance, and at least one other guy I know came out of resort management

I think Wyndham thinks Voyager will be what solves all their problems. And since Geoff Richards (never trust anyone with two first names) COO and President of the fairshare trust, promised Voyager would be up and running by  May 2017. I think computer "solutions" to the cancel and rebook trick, and VIP discounts going to resale points are already backed into the cake, and will happen then

I asked Geoff at the last annual meeting if a wait list was in voyager... he said "not this year", which i thought was telling


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## OutSkiing (Nov 14, 2016)

vacationhopeful said:


> Wyndham's management comes out of the marketing/sales groups. Computer systems would be low on the budget "totem pole" ... and might be a very hard sell if it effects the budgets of more (politically connected) important departments.



Agree.  I am in IT and the best analogy I've heard is that during the Christmas holiday all the big shots in sales, marketing, operations and finance will be sitting together at the grown-up table enjoying their turkey and stuffing, while the IT department will be sitting over at the kiddie table.

Bob


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## OutSkiing (Nov 14, 2016)

ronparise said:


> not entirely true. Marc Johnson came out of Finance, ...


Having spent my career in IT, I find that when IT reports up into finance, they are even more of a stepchild.  Finance will always find a way to make cuts somewhere to hit the budget.  And if they have IT under their direct control, it will be sacrificed if needed to meet the (growth) numbers.

Bob


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## DeeDibble (Nov 18, 2016)

I am a " simple" owner that doesn't use my timeshare for " business" as we just like to stay in south Florida for several weeks in the winter.   I don't have enough points to " double book" to have the " insurance" to make sure I don't have an interruption losing a week trying to get a discount by doing the " cancel/rebook".  I called Wyndham yesterday to start the process.  First of all I was on hold for 52 minutes before I could talk to a human.  When I got the VC she said that Wyndham isn't letting anything back into inventory on any of the south Florida resorts.  She said the system is has not been returning anything at all when owners are calling in to cancel/rebook because every resort is overbooked.    Any chance of inventory pouring back in at 30 days or less prior check in date?I ask this because the more I'm reading posts here the more the dialogue is pointing to Points Managers may be tying up a lot of inventory to successfully cancel/rebook.  If this is the case I'm hoping us " small guys" can get our discounts.


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## DeeDibble (Nov 18, 2016)

Clarification:  I don't have enough to " double book" every reservation but have a few weeks I can play with -


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## gottashiner (Nov 18, 2016)

I am a Platinum owner with 2,101,000 points (bought over 1 million direct through Wyndham).  I try to always cancel and rebook.  It is the only benefit I see in being Platinum and it is the only way I get my discounted points.  Doing that makes me feel better about how much money I have in Wyndham.  I have a company that rents out some of my points, but I am definitely not a mega renter.  I have never used all of my guest reservations.  And speaking of guest reservations- Wyndham knows people are going to rent or have guests or else there wouldn't be guest reservations based upon point levels.


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