# Just did HGVC presentation - generates questions



## letsgobobby (May 21, 2011)

Hello all,

I'm in the middle of a package at Waikoloa Kings' Land and just completed the 2 hour presentation. Some thoughts and questions follow.

To start with, based on my reading at TUG I knew I was not going to buy. However, I wanted to hear what they had to say, as I am somewhat interested in buying resale.

My offer was: 5 d/4 n 2BR/2BA at Kings' Land Waikoloa, car rental, $200 SANU (stay a night on us at future Hilton portfolio hotel), and 2 luau tickets for about $849+.

The presentation:

We arrived at 1:03 pm for a 1 pm appointment and they had us waiting til about 1:20 pm before taking us back. I expected to be in a group presentation but it was just 1 sales rep and the 2 of us. She spent about 45 minutes explaining the HGVC system but regrettably she was somewhat disorganized and rambling and as a result my wife (who knows nothing about timesharing but a lot about survey and interview technique as a research analyst) says she felt completely confused and it made her very uncomfortable. (Note to HGVC: read your marks better, when you are talking to a shrink and a research analyst, the obfuscation and rapid delivery of confusing facts does not make us more excited about buying; it makes us leery of what you're selling.) At this point we took a short break while she got out the "closer" or pricing guy. We told him right away the chances we would buy were very low because of the commitment of dollars upfront and the availability of resale at much lower prices. We talked for about 30 minutes, him trying to explain the advantages of HGVC and us asking clarifying questions, etc. It was perfectly cordial and I would characterize it as pretty low pressure - maybe low-medium pressure. After about 20 minutes the closer left, the sales rep spent about 10 more minutes with us, and that was it.

In general our strategy was to let them talk and not speak unless asked a direct question, and then to answer the question directly and honestly without emotions or excuses or falsehoods. As a result there were some unexpected periods of silence (which I'm used to in my job and can use to my advantage to create anxiety in a situation like this). This may have contributed to our rep's tendency to ramble and get off her talking points.

At the end they offered us a "VIP offer" of 7000 HGVC points to use within 18 months and up to 2 separate reservations at NYC, Hawaii, or Florida for $1700. We were sort of tempted but ultimately did not buy this because of the requirement to attend another sales presentation.

FWIW, the offer they talked the most about was 5000 points EOY deeded Las Vegas for $17,000 and $843 MF in the use years and $114 annual dues on the off years.

Claims/questions/observations:

1. They said that only 10% of HGVC reservations are made in the 12-9 month range, meaning 90% of ressies are available within 9 months. True or false? If true this implies availability of units without having to act at the earliest possible date.

2. They said that unless reserving at exactly 12 months out (or actually, in the 12-9 month window) was important, there was no advantage to owning at a particular resort and I should own at the place with the lowest MFs (ie, Las Vegas rather than Waikoloa). True or False?

3. They explained that within 30 days one could access "Open reservations" which appeared to be available for either points or cash (possibly at an excellent rate). We got confused here. Can you explain this to me?

4. When asked about resales they identified 3 disadvantages. First, ROFR which is apparently active right now. Second, one cannot achieve elite status, which I understand isn't worth much. Third, they said that if buying direct from the developer, one could buy additional points to add to their deed and that would not raise their MFs (up to 17,000 points per deed). Is the last claim true? Can you describe how someone might optimally use that to their advantage?

5. VIP package: what would 7000 points have gotten us? For example, could we have gotten 5 nights in NYC and 7 nights in Hilton Hawaiian Village? Or just one of those two? Would you have bought this? It seemed like an 'ok' deal but not a steal, especially since there were limitations on the usage of the points - for example, if used in Hawaii only a 7 night stay was permitted; if in NYC a 2 night minimum but 5 night maximum; etc.

6. Since there are only 53 HGVC properties our sales rep explained we could convert to Hilton  Honors points to reserve at hotels. But I always thought this was a terrible use of points; that reserving for fewer than 7 nights would result in an even lesser value; and that I would only be reserving normal studio hotel rooms rather than the 1 BR or 2 BR suites available at HGVC properties. In other words, I could convert my HGVC points to HH points to reserve 4 nights at the Hilton Paris Arc de Triomphe but it wouldn't be very good value. Can you describe this conversion of HGVC to HH points and its worthwhileness? Is this option available for resale purchasers?

7. Throughout the presentation I had a hard time nailing down how much these rooms cost (in points). Is there a link to all the HGVC properties and how many points they cost and what the seasons are? How much would the 2 BR/2 BA at Kings' Land cost in the various seasons?

8. In addition to the purchase price and the maintenance fees, what are all the other fees associated with ownership? She sort of threw out membership fees in RCI, exchange fees for HGVC to HH, nightly fees for open season reservations, 'annual fees', etc. I got this gnawing feeling those fees could add up, depending on how one used ownership.

9. Once a property is built, do the points required stay the same forever, or are they subject to inflation?

10. Are included amenities such as use of adjacent hotel properties (such as Hilton Waikoloa at Kings' Land), free parking, free wi-fi contractually good for life or could HGVC rescind those at any time, resulting in devaluation of the ownership?

As I told the sales rep and closer, we are definitely interested in HGVC but just not ready to commit without doing further research (and I would only buy resale, thanks to TUG).

Any comments as to the pros/cons of HGVC vs Marriott would be appreciated. In the last 3 months we've stayed at Marriott Miami/Doral, Marriott Beachside Key West, Hilton Hawaiian Village Lagoon, and Hilton Waikoloa Kings' Land and based on those 4 stays the Hiltons seem a little nicer. Can you compare the properties and the flexibility/value of the 2 systems?

I would appreciate any and all comments/feedback!

PS - love the Waikoloa Kings' Land - absolutely top-notch quality, the rooms are absolutely silent, extremely well-built, very solid-feeling.


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## Talent312 (May 21, 2011)

Oh, joy. A pop-quiz. I thought they said there would be no tests!

Many of your questions can be answered by reviewing the Members Guide. It has the rules (pg. 137) which explains much, and a listing of resorts along with their point-requirements. Its available online here:
http://multimedia.hiltongrandvacations.com/mg/Book_Reader.cfm?BookId=3

*1. They said that only 10% of HGVC reservations are made in the 12-9 month range, meaning 90% of ressies are available within 9 months. True or false? *

Plausible. Many owners never darken the door of their home-resort.
I wouldn't have, 'cept its only 2 hours away and I was curious.

*2. They said that unless reserving at exactly 12 months out (or actually, in the 12-9 month window) was important, there was no advantage to owning at a particular resort and I should own at the place with the lowest MFs (ie, Las Vegas rather than Waikoloa). True or False?*

True. Reserving during the "home week" window is important only for those who want to stay often at high-demand resorts (Hawaii, NYC) during the high-season, and have limited travel-windows for which they need exact dates.

*3. They explained that within 30 days one could access "Open reservations" which appeared to be available for either points or cash (possibly at an excellent rate). We got confused here. Can you explain this to me?*

There are two distinct overlapping reservation windows at play here:
1. "Club" reservations use points from 9-months out to 1-day b4 check-in.
B. "Open Season" reservations use cash from 30-days out to 1-day b4 check-in.

Open Season has a 2N minimum, and is not available for all resorts or all units. Its limited to those desperate-to-rent units that resorts thinks would go unused, otherwise. Some here occasionally find competitive "hotel" rates for the same units available thru Hilton Hotels, with no prepayment required.

*4. When asked about resales they identified 3 disadvantages... Third, they said that if buying direct from the developer, one could buy additional points to add to their deed and that would not raise their MFs (up to 17,000 points per deed). Is the last claim true?...*

Questionable. MF's are assessed per unit by size (not season). So, if you traded in a low-season (bronze) unit for the same-size high-season (platinum) unit, you could get more points for the same MF. But its doubtful that paying retail prices to HGVC would be worth the effort, when you could accomplish the same thing privately thru the resale market.

*5. VIP package: what would 7000 points have gotten us? For example, could we have gotten 5 nights in NYC and 7 nights in Hilton Hawaiian Village? Or just one of those two? Would you have bought this?*

See the Members Guide for point requirements.  Some who bought this later complained here that they could not get the unit or dates they wanted. Well, welcome to the world of timesharing, where flexibility is the key. I would not have bought this, but then, I'm not about to sit still for another sales-pitch.

*6. Since there are only 53 HGVC properties our sales rep explained we could convert to Hilton Honors points to reserve at hotels. But I always thought this was a terrible use of points; that reserving for fewer than 7 nights would result in an even lesser value; and that I would only be reserving normal studio hotel rooms rather than the 1 BR or 2 BR suites available at HGVC properties. In other words, I could convert my HGVC points to HH points to reserve 4 nights at the Hilton Paris Arc de Triomphe but it wouldn't be very good value. Can you describe this conversion of HGVC to HH points and its worthwhileness? Is this option available for resale purchasers?*

It is available for resale purchases. You can make this conversion with the following year's points before the start of the year. They will post to your HHonors account in 1st week of January. The ratio is 1-HGVC point to 25-HHonors points, which means that you could spend enuff HGVC-points for a 3-4N stay at a resort for 1N at a Hampton Inn. You can also make a direct hotel reservation with current-year HGVC points, but the effective ratio is worse: 1-HGVC point to 20-HHonors points.

*7. Throughout the presentation I had a hard time nailing down how much these rooms cost (in points). Is there a link to all the HGVC properties and how many points they cost and what the seasons are? How much would the 2 BR/2 BA at Kings' Land cost in the various seasons?*

See opening paragraph.

*8. In addition to the purchase price and the maintenance fees, what are all the other fees associated with ownership?...*

See page 151 of the Members Guide.

*9. Once a property is built, do the points required stay the same forever, or are they subject to inflation?*

The point-schedule for nightly reservations is, theoretically, subject to adjustment; however, "any downward (or upward) adjustment... requires an equal upward (or downward) adjustment to ensure that the total allocation of points available for reservations remains constant." -- MG, pg.148. -- IOW, the overall value of your points is protected.

*10. Are included amenities such as use of adjacent hotel properties (such as Hilton Waikoloa at Kings' Land), free parking, free wi-fi contractually good for life or could HGVC rescind those at any time, resulting in devaluation of the ownership?*

"Program use options and rules, including but not limited to (anything)... are subject to change, adjustment, suspension or discontinuation w/o notice."
The only constant in the universe is change. -- MG, pg. 148.
---------------------------
_Clear as mud?_


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## dougp26364 (May 21, 2011)

While I can't answer all your questions, I can comment on a couple of them.

#1. I don't buy this for every resort. Sure if you're wanting to stay in Orlando or Vegas this is most likely true but, getting into Hawaii using points from Vegas or Orlando doesn't quite wash with me. I've exchanged into HHV on Oahu twice. Both time we reserved right at the 9 month date for a January stay. Both times there was very limited selection for unit types. Both times, when I checked a week later, there was no availability. Every now and again I'll do a search, just to see what's available for Hawaii and when it's available. For Hawaiian properties, availability can be limited. I suspect it's because Hilton sales reps sell the idea of Hawaii but sell the deeds to Orlando and Vegas.

#2. If Hawaii is important then I say buy the unit size and view you want in Hawaii. I believe the HGVC only allows you to reserve you exact unit type and view during the 9-12 month home reservation window. If you want to own in Vegas or Orlando, I don't think it's as important. For Vegas and Orlando I always see good to great availability for almost every type of unit from 6 to 9 months in advance. With Hawaii I've had to take what I can get.

#3. I have no practicle experience with open season. 

#4. ROFR is active but, it's still thousands lower then buying direct from HGVC. Elite status might be nice but, is it worth $15,000+? 

#5. I never consider buying the VIP packages so no, I wouldn't have spent $1,700 unless I was considering buying retail. You could have recieved a seven night stay at HHV in a one bedroom ocean view unit or a 2 bedroom mountian view unit, assuming one was available. Vegas or Orlando would have been 7 night stays in a 2 bedroom unit. I don't know about NYC as I never consider that particular location. 

#6. I never consider HHonors. We own timeshare to avoid hotel rooms, not to convert to hotel rewards points. Doesn't this defeat the purpose of buying timeshare anyway? If you want a hotel room, why not just rent what you want when you want without the upfront cost and continueing cost of owning a timeshare. I've always thought this an idiotic tactic for a timeshare saleman. 

#7 Link has already been provided. Existing units have never increased in points. Newer builds have required more points. The Grand Waikikian for example can be upwards of 13,000 points for a one bedroom with a view whereas older resorts have all their two bedroom units as 7,000 points. The Lagoon Tower, for instance has one bedroom ocean view units for 6,600 points (I think, my memory could be faulty on the number). So what's the difference? The Grand Waikikian is newer, fancier, farther from the beach and taller. HGVC was telling prospects that because it cost more to build it should cost more in points. I guess they forgot that since it cost more to build they were charging more to buy and, because it was fancier, charging more in MF's to maintain. The increase in points value still doesn't wash with me. 

#8. For us it's just nickel and dime fee's. I believe we paid $39 to rescue our points and have paid $69 club reservation fee's. There are other minimal fee's but, since all we do is internal exhanges I don't believe we've ever paid any of them. 

#9. As far as I've seen they stay the same forever. There may be some play in the nightly rates but, I believe that they always must equal the total initialy set for weekly stays. Changing point totals for inflation would be catastrophic to their sales. Imagine the owner outrage! Plus, HGVC is a points based reservation system but a deed weeks based ownership. Even if they did increase the points they can not alter the deeded week and your right to stay in your deeded week. Thus, the points required to reserve you deeded week would have to inflate as well, making it a zero sum game. 

#10. In short, no. 

Pro's and Con's vs Marriott? Since I own both I can take a brief look at both.

HGVC treats resale buyers essentially the same as retail buyers except for elite status.

Marriott's new points based reservation system, called the Destination Club, doesn't allow new resale purchasers to participate. In fact, the devalue their product in their attempt to "punish" resale purchasers.

HGVC is a points overlap resrvation system based on deeded week ownership.

Marriott has fractured themselves into three ownership groups. 1) Deeded week owners not enrolled in the Destination Club 2) Deeded owners who are enrolled in the Destination Club 3) Trust based owners (no deeded week baking your purchase) who buy a trust interest directly from Marriott represented by a number of points.

Marriott system is convoluted and confusing compared to HGVC's system but, Marriott has more Marriott branded properties whereas HGVC is mostly a collection of affiliated properties. 

Marriott rarely exercies ROFR, making buying a Marriott week cheaper on the resale market but, Marriott doesn't have the internal exchange system that HGVC has, making it more difficult to exchange one Marriott week for another Marriott week vs internal exchanges within the HGVC system.

With HGVC you can make nightly reservaitons.

With Marriott, as a resale buyer, you'll need to make weekly reservations at your home resort and, if you want to exchange, you'll need to make exchange requests through I.I.

A year ago, if you'd have asked me which ownership I valued more, HGVC or Marriott, I'd have told you Marriott based on the number of locations and resort Marriott has in it's portfolio. Now, after Marriott introduced their Destination Club and fractured their ownership into three distinctive groups, I believe HGVC to be the better system. 

I have enrolled in Marriott's new Destination Club but have not bought a trust interest. So far, I've received the exchanges I want but, the playing field seems to be changing. Before I could go online and see good availability thru I.I., now I don't see the same availability and feel that exchanges will need to be more of a request and hope version. I have had both exchanges for 2012 confirmed within a week of making the request so, I really don't have a complaint, just the observation that I'm having to make requests and wait vs making instant online exchange confirmations. 

If you were to buy directly from Marriott and buy into the trust ownership, then you would probably find it as flexible, if not more flexible than HGVC's system but, you'll have to buy directly from the developer and, there are enough poison pills for resale purchases that you may find your ownership worthless if you need to ever sell it to someone else.


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## SmithOp (May 21, 2011)

Re: 1& 2. I agree with Doug. I always book 12 months out in my assigned unit, we purchased the front stack at Lagoon after staying in the back corner listening to garbage trucks at 4am every day (before GW was built). With 2 working parents we had limited windows for vacation, and being west coast based prefer Hawaii, we go every Memorial week, off to KL next Sat. 

Only Hilton knows the reservation trends of it's owners, we can speculate. My impression is that the average TUGer does a lot more trading in club and open season than an owner like me, but that may change this year because I'm retiring June 30


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## GregT (May 21, 2011)

Great responses from the other posters -- there is little that I can add (especially since I'm an HGVC newbie, I just bought last year).

However, I can echo what Doug said about Hawaii availability -- the entire reason I bought HGVC was access to Hawaii, and I like mini-systems like HGVC's (its a terrific system).

I routinely watch Hawaii availability at the 9-month mark, it's a little bit of a game for me as it approaches 9pm PT each night (no, I don't check it nightly, but I do check it frequently -- perhaps 5-7 times per month?)

I agree that it is possible to get Hawaii exactly at 9 months, and that if you want Big Island, you can get it even 8-9 months out, but HHV is typically gone by 8 months 28 days.  So you have to be right on it when the inventory loads.  It's definitely not assured you'll get the room type and dates that you want for HHV.

The other category that I've noticed goes quickly is the 1BR at Kings Land that requires 7,200 points, and the 2BR for 10,500 points.  I routinely see the 9,300 point 1BR+ at Kings Land, but its less common (but not rare) to see the 7,200 point Kings Land.  

I hope that is somewhat helpful -- HGVC is a terrific system and I'm glad that I've purchased it.

One other reason to "nudge" you towards buying resale -- and this is my own personal opinion.   I've seen other systems where they make a relatively significant change (Worldmark with Travelshare on November 5, 2006, Marriott with the points system on June 20, 2010 -- I'm sure there are others).   With each change in the system, whoever was an existing owner (even resale) at the time was grandfathered in, but new resale purchasers were locked out.

This is TOTAL speculation on my part, but if HGVC ever implemented a radical change, it is most likely we would be grandfathered in as existing owners.   

Best,

Greg


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## dougp26364 (May 21, 2011)

The only change I see HGVC possibly making in the near future would be to go to a trust based ownership where they sold strictly points with no deeded week. That would allow HGVC to sell mini-packages of points as low as perhaps 1,000 or 1,500. While it wouldn't get the owners much, it would get them in the system and lower the entry price point. It also allows HGVC to dollar cost average MF's across all their resorts rather than having all their owners at the lowest MF resorts trying to trade into the highest MF resorts. 

Trust based system hold a lot of attraction for developers but, IMHO, aren't so great for owners. But then again, DVC owners seem to be happy with Disney's system. It also allows owners to upgrade in smaller increments of points rather than having to buy another unit and pay full MF's on that unit. So, there are a few advantages of trust based ownerships for owners.


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## letsgobobby (May 21, 2011)

i am still digesting everything which has been written, thank you.

One other point which my wife thought she heard the rep say was that 70% of presentations result in a sale. I didn't hear hear say that and frankly I'd be surprised if that were true. Any inside info on that?

With regards to the number of units for sale, let's say there are 500 units at Kings' Land. at 52 weeks per year, there are 26,000 unit-weeks available per year. Do they sell or attempt to sell a full 26,000 unit-weeks, do they try to undersell to leave inventory available for others exchanging in, or do they oversell even knowing some owners cannot get any week at their home resort?

I didn't realize all the changes to the Marriott system. It sounds confusing. The attraction of Marriott and Hilton would be the quality of the resorts, fairly-priced access to 1 BR and 2 BR especially in Hawaii, and the ability to use hotels at reasonable conversion rates when the desired location doesn't have a timeshare property (say, Paris or London or Rome). I don't understand the intricacies of trust ownership, points- vs weeks- based memberships with Marriott, but regarding the criteria I listed above (hotel accessibility and availability in Hawaii) does either system seem better-suited? Or neither/none? It always seems like availability is the toughest nut to crack and no system really shines at giving owners reliable access to high-demand locations.


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## GregT (May 21, 2011)

letsgobobby said:


> i am still digesting everything which has been written, thank you.
> 
> One other point which my wife thought she heard the rep say was that 70% of presentations result in a sale. I didn't hear hear say that and frankly I'd be surprised if that were true. Any inside info on that?
> 
> ...



In my opinion, the quality of the resorts (Hilton and Marriott) appear comparable, however HGVC has always been a points-based system (which I love) and Marriott had always been a weeks-based system until June 20, 2010.  Marriott overlaid a points-based exchange system which has brought alot of turmoil to the Marriott ownership base.   

But, you can't buy Marriott's points resale (you can only buy weeks) so its a major restriction for buying resale (now) into Marriott.   With Marriott now, its a matter of buying a week where you want to vacation, but the trading ability is uncertain and the points aren't available resale.

A cautionary note on HGVC (and I welcome comments from more experienced HGVC owners) -- I think the reference to 53 resorts for HGVC is misleading -- many of those are affiliates, and I understand access to those affiliates is pretty spotty.   So, when I think of HGVC, I think of the HGVC purpose built properties, which center around Orlando, Las Vegas, and Hawaii.  I think you need to expect that your HGVC points will be most efficiently used at those properties -- can other HGVC owners comment?

Good luck with your analysis!

Greg


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## DEROS (May 21, 2011)

letsgobobby said:


> i am still digesting everything which has been written, thank you.
> 
> One other point which my wife thought she heard the rep say was that 70% of presentations result in a sale. I didn't hear hear say that and frankly I'd be surprised if that were true. Any inside info on that?
> .



70% could be true.  Timeshare, although it has been around for decades, is still a big unknown for a lot of people.  I myself, almost bought retail at HGVC Waikoloa.  Actually I did buy but then rescinded after finding TUGBBS, which was by accident.  I was sold on a lifetime of vacation, which I love to do, 2-3 times a year.  Also, at the the time I had the money to drop.  I think that is what the sales rep are hoping for.  A customer that has large disposable income, that is enjoying their vacation, and wants it to last forever.  Very rarely have I heard of someone go on a Vacation say, I wish I never went.  Especially Hawaii.

BTW I had other reason to by a timeshare but my big thing was it forces me to take a vacation.  Don't want the points to go to waste.

DEROS


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## dougp26364 (May 21, 2011)

letsgobobby said:


> i am still digesting everything which has been written, thank you.
> 
> One other point which my wife thought she heard the rep say was that 70% of presentations result in a sale. I didn't hear hear say that and frankly I'd be surprised if that were true. Any inside info on that?
> 
> ...



Typical closing rates for any sales field with well qualified prospects and a well trained sales person is 1:3. Timeshare sales often involve getting unsuspecting tourists off the street. Closing rates I've heard direct from timeshare salesmen for timeshare weeks is closer to 1:6. If HGVC's closing rate is 70% then I need to know where to sign up! 

As I understand it, and this could vary from developer to developer, 51 weeks are sold with 1 week being held out for annual major maintenance/refurbish. Developers prefer to sell every available week when they can. 

HGVC has fewer choices, Big Island or Oahu, but they're easier to get into than Marriott IMHO. Marriott has resorts on Maui, Kaui and Oahu. In order to get into one of Marriott's resorts, you'll need a good exchange week, you'll need to deposit it with Interval International and make your request. Then you wait and hope your exchange request comes through. You also don't have a selection of view when you exchange with Marriott. You get what you get. 

I have exchanged into one of the three Marriott's on Kauai and it was a wonderful resort in a great location. We used a 2 bedroom Marriott Vegas March week to get a Marriott Waiohai 2 bedroom March week. The request included all three Marriott locations and we took whatever we got. 

With Marriott, if you go resale, you won't have the option for exchange for hotel rewards points. So hotel access using the Marriott system if you go resale is off the table. Marirott is not one of the systems to buy into if you're wanting to buy resale. IMHO, Marriott has cut off it's nose to spite it's face when they limit resale weeks so much. It certainly injures the resale price for those who bought from the developer but, it makes them more affordable then HGVC in many cases if your buying. But, they'll be tougher to use than HGVC. If I was buying resale today, Hilton would be the better system to own than Marriot. Which hurts since I own two Marriott weeks to our one HGVC week.


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## jehb2 (May 21, 2011)

letsgobobby said:


> my wife thought she heard the rep say was that 70% of presentations result in a sale.



Only in their dreams.  If this were true the timeshare would be sold out in months as opposed to years.


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## SmithOp (May 21, 2011)

The unsold weeks do not become open to other location HGVC owners, they belong to Hilton to rent as they see fit.


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## letsgobobby (May 22, 2011)

making up some numbers here, but let's say a 2 BR at Kings' Land costs 14,400 points per week in high season.

Scenario 1: let's say I have 7200 points at Kings' Land and buy a second unit for another 7200 points at Las Vegas. Can I use all 14,400 points at the 12 month mark or only 7200?

Scenario 2: let's say I have 7200 points yearly. I know you can pull and push points. Can I pull 7200 points from next year and use this year's 7200 points and reserve a room at Kings' Land at the 12 month mark?

Scenario 3: if I have 7200 points EOddY can I combine them into 14,400 points in the even year in between?

I can see how tricky the pricing/closer guy was. After talking about how much we must have loved our stay he tried to sell us 5000 points every other year in Vegas which a) wouldn't be enough points to get even a small room at Kings' Land and b) would probably lock us out of Waikoloa during high season completely.


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## SmithOp (May 22, 2011)

The answer to all the 12 month questions is that you can only reserve your purchased home resort week(s). All other points, however you combine them, can be used at 9 months.


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## Talent312 (May 22, 2011)

*Scenario 1:* You can use all of your points for "home week" reservations at the 12 month mark, but the points may only be used at each resort from which they came, not where you choose. Reservations during the "home week" window require that you book 7-days in the same size unit in the same season at each resort where you own.

*Scenario 2:* No. You may only use current-year points during the "home week" window. Points borrowed or banked (deposited or rescued) from other years must wait until the 9-month mark.

*Scenario 3:* Yes. You could take this year's points and "rescue" them for use next year and borrow from 2013 to make a 2012 reservation. You would "rescue" this year's points by 12/31 (for a fee) and when you made your 2012 reservation (during the 9-month window), borrow what's needed from 2013 (online, its done automatically).

_Note__:_ There are two methods of banking points: (1) Current-year points may be "rescued" for Club or RCI bookings only in the next calendar-year. (2) Points which would be allotted in an upcoming year may be "deposited" prior to its start with fewer restrictions.


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## Blues (May 22, 2011)

I agree with most of what's been stated above.  You're getting some good information and advice.  One thing I'd note is that I believe that there is some value to the ability to trade for HHonors points.  I agree with the general sentiment that buying HGVC for the main purpose of trading for HH is a total waste (my last presentation was pitched this way).  Buy only those HGVC points that you think you'll use for timesharing.  *However*, travel plans can vary year-to-year, and having the option to trade for HH points can be useful when traveling to high-priced cities.  London, Paris, Rome, NYC, etc, can be priced at $500/night.  I consider trading for HH stays if I were going to have to pay at least $300/night anyway.  Trading for a Hampton Inn in Dubuque Iowa, for example, would be a total waste of points.

-Bob


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## pianodinosaur (May 22, 2011)

I own with both HGVC and Marriott.  There is no question in my mind that HGVC is much more flexible.  However, Marriott gets me into II.  

The Bay Club may be purchased resale via ebay for a reasonable price.  However, staying at the Bay Club does not give you courtesy access to all the facilities at Hilton Waikoloa Hawaiin Village. If you have the money, and want to ultimately enjoy the privileges of Hilton Elite, and you want to go to the Big Island almost every year, then purchasing at either of the Hilton developed resorts on the Big Island would be a good idea.


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## egrexx (May 31, 2011)

I'll speak to #5, purchasing VIP package, as I purchased the VIP package last year while visiting HHV Lagoon since i knew I wanted to come back to Waikiki this year.

I am writing you right now from my HHV Grand Waikikian tower suite, 3rd night of a 7 night stay. Because Memorial Day week is low season, the week normally priced 7000pts only cost me 5000pts; I'll be using the spare 2000pts at Las Vegas or Orlando later this year. While I paid $400/ni last year as a retail customer of HHV Lagoon, my stay this week worked out to approx 162/ni with the package, so to me it was well worth it.

I sat through the obligatory second sales presentation yesterday and it wasn't a big deal. We only had to speak to one salesman and once he got our final "no" it was pleasantly ended.

I'm very intrigued by the HGVC program and may be purchasing retail. My biggest hang-up, as with timeshare in general, is the maintenance/assessment fees which are always subject to increase and never go away. Why can't that fee be "locked" just like the purchase price? I may never become an owner because of those fees.


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## dougp26364 (May 31, 2011)

egrexx said:


> I'll speak to #5, purchasing VIP package, as I purchased the VIP package last year while visiting HHV Lagoon since i knew I wanted to come back to Waikiki this year.
> 
> I am writing you right now from my HHV Grand Waikikian tower suite, 3rd night of a 7 night stay. Because Memorial Day week is low season, the week normally priced 7000pts only cost me 5000pts; I'll be using the spare 2000pts at Las Vegas or Orlando later this year. While I paid $400/ni last year as a retail customer of HHV Lagoon, my stay this week worked out to approx 162/ni with the package, so to me it was well worth it.
> 
> ...



MF's pay for the upkeep of the unit, buildings, grounds, amenities, pools and staff to run the resort. Just like the cost of maintaining your home is never likely to go down, neither is a timeshare MF's likely to go down. I have had fee's stay flat for a few years......but that caused other problems down the road such as a special assessment when the cash reserves weren't adaquate to pay for refurbishments.

MF's pay for things like utilities, property taxes, insurance and employee wages. Money is also set aside to replace necessary items such as carpeting, furniture, appliances and furniture. All of these things tend to get more expensive as time goes on and, everyone would like an increase of their salary each year. 

Think about your own home. Would it be cheaper to replace your roof this year or ten years from now? How about that water heater or heating/ac unit? Most of us don't put to much thought into home maintenance. It's just something we take for granted and tend to pay for it as it's needed. That can't be done with a timeshare. HOA's have to plan for future refurbishments to keep the resort fresh for owners and keep the resort maintained. It's not as if every owner is going to want to mow the lawns, take up the gardening work or work at the restaurants or front desk while on vacation. HOA's have to pay wages, taxes and insurance costs for these workers. That's part of your MF.

Renting hotel rooms hasn't become much cheaper over the years either and for the same reasons. When we started in timesharing in 1998, we could rent a decent hotel room for $69. Today that's getting pretty tough with our average cost for the same hotel room running between $89 and $150, depending on the city and time of year. I remember laughing when the salesman said hotel rooms would be getting up around $100/night on average in 5 or 6 years.

MF's are part of the cost of owning or renting. Buildings and grounds have to be maintained, taxes and wages have to be paid, so, MF's are something that's here to stay. I will say that Hilton, as opposed to some developers, has done a good job of keeping their MF's in line.


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