# [2012] Just lost my reservation when I tried to cancel & rebook



## WeLovetoTravel

I just wanted to let everyone know that I just lost my Bonnett Creek Christmas reservation when I tried to cancel and rebook for the discounted points. This is the first time that I've gotten burned using the cancel and rebook trick. I am really bummed, but at least we have a back up plan. I just wanted to caution others to be careful, especially with holiday bookings. I don't know if something changed with the way Wyndham posts the inventory, or if someone else was looking at the exact same second I cancelled. When I tried to rebook the reservation, the unit was there, then when I clicked to confirm I got the message that the unit ws no longer available.


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## Renny30

Sorry. Thanks for the warning.


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## csxjohn

Is it possible that Wyndham or RCI put it up for rent?

I'm still trying to figure out the Wyndham points game.


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## chapjim

I lost one at Ocean Walk about a year and a half ago.  It was a 3BR unit and the Wyndham reservations guy told me Ocean Walk had overbooked that week.  There are, of course, other possible explanations, the most commonly suggested is that Wyndham took the week for Extra Holidays.

It takes me about fifteen seconds to cancel and rebook.  Odds of someone hitting the search button for exactly what I'm cancelling is pretty low.  I suspect Extra Holidays.  Why not check to see if your week is available through Extra Holidays?

I cancel and rebook every reservation I have with Wyndham although always with some trepidation.  That's forty reservations so far this year with two to go (one is a December 29 check-in at Bonnet Creek and now I'll be even more nervous than normal!).


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## brigian

Where did you see the discount ? I just checked all of December and January and didn't see a single discount. I have BC booked for January.


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## chapjim

brigian said:


> Where did you see the discount ? I just checked all of December and January and didn't see a single discount. I have BC booked for January.



OP is a VIP and was trying to take advantage of a VIP perk by cancelling an existing reservation and rebooking the same reservation and taking the VIP discount for making a reservation with 60 days of check-in.  It's pretty well explained in the Wyndham Directory.


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## WeLovetoTravel

chapjim said:


> I lost one at Ocean Walk about a year and a half ago.  It was a 3BR unit and the Wyndham reservations guy told me Ocean Walk had overbooked that week.  There are, of course, other possible explanations, the most commonly suggested is that Wyndham took the week for Extra Holidays.
> 
> It takes me about fifteen seconds to cancel and rebook.  Odds of someone hitting the search button for exactly what I'm cancelling is pretty low.  I suspect Extra Holidays.  Why not check to see if your week is available through Extra Holidays?
> 
> I cancel and rebook every reservation I have with Wyndham although always with some trepidation.  That's forty reservations so far this year with two to go (one is a December 29 check-in at Bonnet Creek and now I'll be even more nervous than normal!).



I called owner relations to ask how the availabilty appeared then disappeared between the reserve and confirm window. There was less than 5 seconds between my cancel and rebook attempt. The supervisor I spoke to told me that extra holidays can not take the week. (I don't know if that's true or not, I would have to do more research) She said they have 2 call centers and agents are constantly being asked to do searches for holiday weeks. She said someone else must have booked it. She also told me that I was the 2nd person she spoke to today complaining that this happened. She reminded me that you always take a chance when you try to cancel and rebook. Jim- I wouldn't take a chance on losing your New Year's reservation, I would just leave it as is, unless you already have it backed up with a 2nd room.
-Deb


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## Rent_Share

A loophole that might have finally been closed


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## vacationhopeful

Most of us have lost reservations over the past 1.5 years - anything that is a rentable unit or likely resort OVERBOOKED period. It is so common that I know it is NOT another caller who gets it - it is programmed into the reservation system to "snatch" it. 

Besides the arguement that there a so many owners looking for a reservation -- HOW many more owners has Wyndham added to their custsomer base in the past 1 and a half years? And it JUST started happening? :ignore:


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## vacationhopeful

Rent_Share said:


> A loophole that might have finally been closed



Except for Extra Holidays who can rent it cheap.


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## WeLovetoTravel

vacationhopeful said:


> Except for Extra Holidays who can rent it cheap.


I did check, there was nothing available in a 3BR on Extra Holidays. So I really am hoping another owner grabbed the Unit, maybe me losing that Unit enabled another owner to book a really great Unit at Bonnett Creek, and that family will have a memorable vacation. Live and Learn I guess... I really do hope my days of discounted bookings and upgrades are not over though! I have learned to stretch our points for maximum usage I am so used to getting that advantage,its a big disappointment when it doesn't work to out


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## Explorer7

WeLovetoTravel said:


> I did check, there was nothing available in a 3BR on Extra Holidays. So I really am hoping another owner grabbed the Unit, maybe me losing that Unit enabled another owner to book a really great Unit at Bonnett Creek, and that family will have a memorable vacation. Live and Learn I guess... I really do hope my days of discounted bookings and upgrades are not over though! I have learned to stretch our points for maximum usage I am so used to getting that advantage,its a big disappointment when it doesn't work to out



I’ve had a few  close calls like that but my reservations have often come back available sometimes within a 15 to 30 min window, I believe one possible explanation is that folks actually enjoy searching for deals and cancel once they don’t get the buy in from their spouse or find other reasons the reservation won’t work out. 
A couple of times I wondered it something was put into place to cause the weird “availability glitch” that I’ve experienced.  None the less my travel plans are never in stone until I’ve rebooked and often upgraded.


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## Explorer7

There’s a 3br sitting there right now for 3 night starting the day after xmas perhaps someone just grabbed xmas day and the few days before xmas.
DECEMBER
12/26/2012	3	3 Bedroom Deluxe	•	 	136,000 	N/A


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## Sandy VDH

I am too chicken to try to get the discount at the 60 day mark when the resort is sold out for those dates.  I would rather not chance it.  But I figure I have plenty enough points to not want to mess with it. 

I have no issue with rebooking it if there is plenty of inventory left, and do this frequently.


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## bogey21

WeLovetoTravel said:


> This is the first time that I've gotten burned using the cancel and rebook trick.



The way I see it is that you assumed a risk and got nailed.  You had to know it could happen.  I think the key question is were you just unlucky or did Wyndham do something to close the loophole you were attempting to use?

George


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## am1

It is real.


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## CO skier

WeLovetoTravel said:


> I just wanted to let everyone know that I just lost my Bonnett Creek *Christmas reservation *when I tried to cancel and rebook for the discounted points.



Everyone knows that VIPs paid plenty for their privileges, but trying to get a Christmas reservation at 50% off, when so many other owners would stand in line to pay full price ... is just greedy.

Discounts are intended for underutilized or surplus inventory, not prime time.




WeLovetoTravel said:


> There was less than 5 seconds between my cancel and rebook attempt.



A waitlist would put an end to this nonsense.

(Maybe there is already a "double secret probationary" waitlist in effect).


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## vacationhopeful

CO skier said:


> ...(Maybe there is already a "double secret probationary" waitlist in effect).



For Extra Holidays?  :ignore:


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## NHTraveler

Last night, I canceeled and rebooked my 4 days stay at Wyndham Royal Vista without a problem.  Arriving on December 21, leaving December 25.  Granted, it was not a full week, so not sure how it would have gone if it was.  I head to Key West for 3 nights after that and return to Royal Vista for another week.  I am a little weary of trying the cancel/rebook thing after seeing your story.  That said, I only do the cancel/rebook thing if we are traveling alone.  If I lost it, we would just go somewhere else.  I would never chance it if people were traveling with us.


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## bnoble

It could be EV; they are allowed to take inventory within 60 days per the VOA rules.  It could also be other owners; there are hundreds of thousands of them, and many presumably want to go to Orlando for Christmas.  That's the single busiest time there.  

But, the reason why it happens doesn't matter.  What does matter is: the more in-demand the unit is, the more likely someone else wants it, whether that someone else is Wyndham or another owner.  No matter how short the window is between canceling and rebooking, there's a chance that it will be taken in the interim.  So, the word to the wise is that if you are going to do this, either be willing to live without the trip, or have a backup plan in place.

The cancel/rebook trick still seems to work more often than not, though, so it doesn't sound like there is a fundamental change.  After all, the feature where inventory reappears in real time is still relatively new; within the last few years.  And, we've always heard a few instances of it happening here and there.

On the topic of "fairness": As a low-point resale peon, I don't have any problem with VIP owners working the current system to their advantage.  When I want a high-demand reservation, I book it right at 7AM the day the Standard Window opens, and that has always worked for me so far.  I don't care what people do at 60 days, because I've had my reservation for months and months by then.  What's more, whether a VIP does or doesn't get a discount doesn't really affect me at all---Sales pays for VIP benefits.  At the end of the day, we each do what we can to maximize our own vacations.


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## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Everyone knows that VIPs paid plenty for their privileges, but trying to get a Christmas reservation at 50% off, when so many other owners would stand in line to pay full price ... is just greedy.
> 
> Discounts are intended for underutilized or surplus inventory, not prime time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A waitlist would put an end to this nonsense.
> 
> (Maybe there is already a "double secret probationary" waitlist in effect).



You are wrong about VIP discounts. They are there not to fill empty rooms, they are there to help salesman sell more points


You are right, of course, about the greed, but Wyndham's sales staff has been taking advantage of this greed by promoting this "loophole" for some time to help folks get some benefit from their high priced VIP membership (and of course help them sell more points)  

None of the VIP benefits have been cast in concrete and any can be reversed at any time, but I think its understandable that those that have been sold the product with something  included (and have paid those big bucks) feel cheated when its taken away. 

And a wait list would put an end to it. but a wait list will take away one of the sales staffs most powerful tools they have to upsell existing owners...I dont think they will do it.  But if they do I not only wont upgrade (or upgreed) from Silver to Platinum as is now my plan and Wyndham will have several million more points to sell when I default on my higher mf contracts

With Wyndhams VIP discounts, besides using underutilized or surplus inventory, there is another intention and thats to help them sell more points at 20 cents each. 

***​
If this continues to happen (and if there is no waiting list) the way to play it is to make two reservations early. thereby putting a back up plan in place...and if things work out right you can not only get a discount but also an upgrade.

Make one for a one bedroom and one for a three bedroom.  Then in the discount/upgrade window, cancel the one bedroom and re book at a discount,,,,if you lose it you have your 3 bedroom to fall back on. But if you get your one bedroom at a discount,  the next day you can cancel the three bedroom and up grade the one bedroom into it. If it works you have a three bedroom at a discounted one bedroom price. If it doesnt work, you have the one bedroom to fall back on.

This wont work at all unless you have lots of points and it wont work at the end of a use year (because there will not be enough time to use the "freed up" points)


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## tugger2020

Maybe I'm missing something here.  Do you have to cancel the original reservation first to re-book using the discounted points for < 60 days out?  Or could you just book another reservation with the discounted points first? 

Once the second reservation is confirmed, could you not go back and cancel the original reservation that cost full points?


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## capital city

What your missing is there is no inventory to book until you cancel your original reservation


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## bnoble

> And a wait list would put an end to it. but a wait list will take away one of the sales staffs most powerful tools they have to upsell existing owners


Nothing says that the sales staff has to get into how some hypothetical waiting list would work when selling a new prospect on the program.  They stretch the truth everywhere else, this would just be one more lie.


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## WeLovetoTravel

Everyone knows that VIPs paid plenty for their privileges, but trying to get a Christmas reservation at 50% off, when so many other owners would stand in line to pay full price ... is just greedy.

Discounts are intended for underutilized or surplus inventory, not prime time.


I do not agree. I am not GREEDY! I am only using a benefit that we paid for. We paid dearly for our points. We bought years ago at full freight. I take advantage of every discount/ upgrade/perk I can get. We will never recoup the thousands of dollars we unwisely invested in the timeshare, but we always try to squeeze as much use as possible out of our points. I am so glad that I discovered TUG and have learned to use my membership to all of it's advantages. 
Am I disapointed that I lost the reservation? Of course! But, I would never have tried it without a back-up plan already in place! I only posted for the benefit of other tuggers warning them that they might lose their holiday plans if they try to do it. I have never lost a reservation before. The VIP owners should all know that there is always a possibility the inventory might disappear when they try to do this, but it has always worked for me in the past.
-Deb


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## Renny30

capital city said:


> What your missing is there is no inventory to book until you cancel your original reservation



Wow, that is tricky.


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## lisa1001

We lost a reservation Labor day weekend 2011, while trying to cancel and  rebook.  It wasn't an important must have reservation, so no biggie.

On important reservations, I don't play the game.  

Being greedy I have booked 1, 2 and 3 bedroom units at BC for Christmas all at 1/2 points with the 2 and 3 bedrooms being upgrades as well.  Is was a very nice extended family getaway.


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## SOS8260456

I was just thinking about this yesterday and about the "changes" that Wyndham said were coming in October.  Did any changes "officially" arrive yet?  Is this one of them?  Maybe or maybe not.

If I use the cancel and rebook trick and another owner gets the unit, then I am fine with it.  I can't stand the thought that the unit might be taken for EH or overbooked resorts (which is their (Wyndham's) fault for overbooking).

Glad you have a back up.


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## tugger2020

capital city said:


> What your missing is there is no inventory to book until you cancel your original reservation



Makes sense now...thanks.  Seems too risky for any reservation that you really care about (flights booked, etc).


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## kalua

*re booking*

ron well said , but I really wish you wouldn't tell all all these secrets on how to get what you want , ties up points but it works !  lol


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## bogey21

ronparise said:


> None of the VIP benefits have been cast in concrete and any can be reversed at any time, but I think its understandable that those that have been sold the product with something  included (and have paid those big bucks) feel cheated when its taken away.



You are exactly right.  Years ago when Marriott unilaterally changed their resale and rental programs which were important considerations when I decided to buy I sold my 4 Marriott Weeks in disgust.  I figured if they changed those programs, they could change anything to my detriment.

George


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## ronparise

SOS8260456 said:


> I was just thinking about this yesterday and about the "changes" that Wyndham said were coming in October.  Did any changes "officially" arrive yet?  Is this one of them?  Maybe or maybe not.
> 
> If I use the cancel and rebook trick and another owner gets the unit, then I am fine with it.  I can't stand the thought that the unit might be taken for EH or overbooked resorts (which is their (Wyndham's) fault for overbooking).
> 
> Glad you have a back up.



The changes you mention  will be coming with "voyager" Wyndhams new reservations system. One of the changes is supposed to be the ability to make ARP reservations on line and one change we fear is a waiting list

October was the date, then it was pushed to the first of the year

Worldmark owners have also been promised Voyager and at their recent annual meeting it was announced (or so Im told) that it wont be here until sometime next year


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## ronparise

kalua said:


> ron well said , but I really wish you wouldn't tell all all these secrets on how to get what you want , ties up points but it works !  lol



This is not a secret. Salesmen have been promoting it for sometime. In fact they tried it on me this past April in Las Vegas.  They didnt seem surprised (nor did they make a sale) when I told them I was in a 3 bedroom at a discounted one bedroom price


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## simpsontruckdriver

I haven't tried it, but some have said a better "cancel and re-book" is to cancel a few minutes before online booking ends for the night, then grab it first thing in the morning when the reservation system comes online. Like others here have said, it is risky.

When I think it would not be worth it is if you're using almost all your year points. For instance, if you have 154000 points, and your reservation is 150000. Doing the cancel/re-book would give you points back, but what if you can't use those points before the end of the year? Let's say you would have 20000 points left over. You MIGHT be able to rent it out to someone who's looking for a 1 or 2 night stay somewhere. I've been trying to rent some of my points out in exchange for paying my MFs on the Last Minute Rentals, but it's not easy, since there are always those who charge less than I can.

TS


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## jjmanthei05

csxjohn said:


> Is it possible that Wyndham or RCI put it up for rent?
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out the Wyndham points game.



If he saw the room show back up in inventory this wasn't extra holidays. If they take the inventory it just wont show back up ever. Someone else was watching and picked it up on you. I have lost probably 3 rooms over the last year. All of them were picked up within 2 seconds of when it popped back into the system and it wasn't EH because they don't rent at this resort. Some people just sit and watch especially for holiday weekends. Its probably better if you VIP to not cancel and rebook at the 60 day window wait close to 50 (but before 45). I would guess people watch at those intervals to try and snag reservations from the VIPs that are trying to get their discount points and upgrades. 

Jason


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## jjmanthei05

Sandy VDH said:


> I am too chicken to try to get the discount at the 60 day mark when the resort is sold out for those dates.  I would rather not chance it.  But I figure I have plenty enough points to not want to mess with it.
> 
> I have no issue with rebooking it if there is plenty of inventory left, and do this frequently.



We have a 4 bedroom presidential booked for spring break at Bonnet creek. To avoid this situation I actually have a 1, 3 and 4 bedroom booked to get my upgrade and discount or if I lose the 1 or the 3 then I just don't mess with the 4 bed presidential and pay full price so we have someplace to stay. If I get the 3 bedroom upgraded and then lose the 4 at least we have a 3 bedroom at discounted 1 bedroom upgrade.

Jason


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## capital city

I'm a little confused. If VIP's say this was what they were promised and what they paid for then why do they have to cancel and rebook within a certain window? Wouldn't they just be given the % off at any time. Sounds like a calculated risk too me. I don't know why you would be offended by someone saying its greedy, it sounds like that is exactly what it is. Having said that I would absolutely be trying it with every reservation I made if I were VIP. 

To be honest as I look to buy into Wyndham resale it looks like VIP's hurt the resale market as much as anyone. It looks like they rent all the good rooms at the best times at the cheapest amount of points and then rent them for barely any profit. If it wasnt for the flexibility and having RCI last call deals I wouldnt see any advantage to owning through Wyndham even at ebay prices.


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## jebloomquist

ronparise said:


> The changes you mention  will be coming with "voyager" Wyndhams new reservations system. One of the changes is supposed to be the ability to make ARP reservations on line and one change we fear is a waiting list



If a waiting list does happen, expect the prices in the resale market to fall even more, if that is possible. Platinum owners who expect to book and then rebook at 50% will no longer be able to do so. Some will get out of the rental business and dump their Wyndham points to get rid of the M/F burden. I personally might dump a million points if I couldn't use them to guest others.

Jim


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## ronparise

capital city said:


> I'm a little confused. If VIP's say this was what they were promised and what they paid for then why do they have to cancel and rebook within a certain window? Wouldn't they just be given the % off at any time. Sounds like a calculated risk too me. I don't know why you would be offended by someone saying its greedy, it sounds like that is exactly what it is. Having said that I would absolutely be trying it with every reservation I made if I were VIP.
> 
> To be honest as I look to buy into Wyndham resale it looks like VIP's hurt the resale market as much as anyone. It looks like they rent all the good rooms at the best times at the cheapest amount of points and then rent them for barely any profit. If it wasnt for the flexibility and having RCI last call deals I wouldnt see any advantage to owning through Wyndham even at ebay prices.



VIPs get a discount on available inventory and the ability to upgrade if there is something available to upgrade into.. Thats all thats promised to VIPs today. What we are talking about is how to "game" the system and create availability in that window by canceling a reservation and immediately rebooking it. And we get upset when it doesnt work out...but That doesnt take anything away from anyone else.

VIPs dont have any advantage over anyone else when it comes to making reservations.  We are up at 7 am eastern time on website (or 8 am on the phone) when the new inventory becomes available. Whether you have 100000 points or 10 million points VIP or not, you have the same chance of getting that hard to get reservation....yes I want it as cheap as I can get it and yes I do rent most of what  own, But I dont see how that hurts anyone elses chances at a hard to get reservation,  What I really dont get is how you think VIPs hurt the resale market. I think if it wasnt for the mega owners, there wouldnt be any market at all.

Most of us are happy owning Wyndham points, even the VIPs that paid full developer prices for what they own. Dont begrudge them a chance to get some of that money back, and dont let our whining scare you away


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## ronparise

jebloomquist said:


> If a waiting list does happen, expect the prices in the resale market to fall even more, if that is possible. Platinum owners who expect to book and then rebook at 50% will no longer be able to do so. Some will get out of the rental business and dump their Wyndham points to get rid of the M/F burden. I personally might dump a million points if I couldn't use them to guest others.
> 
> Jim



Jim

 I dont think its going to happen and as you know Im putting my money where my mouth is. but if it does Ill take those million points you will dump


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## jjmanthei05

ronparise said:


> Jim
> 
> I dont think its going to happen and as you know Im putting my money where my mouth is. but if it does Ill take those million points you will dump



I am in your boat predicting\hoping this is true or if a waitlist is implemented it is only vaild until the 60 day mark (can't infringe on EH), I just picked up 1.2 million points tonight.

Jason


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## capital city

ronparise said:


> VIPs get a discount on available inventory and the ability to upgrade if there is something available to upgrade into.. Thats all thats promised to VIPs today. What we are talking about is how to "game" the system and create availability in that window by canceling a reservation and immediately rebooking it. And we get upset when it doesnt work out...but That doesnt take anything away from anyone else.
> 
> VIPs dont have any advantage over anyone else when it comes to making reservations.  We are up at 7 am eastern time on website (or 8 am on the phone) when the new inventory becomes available. Whether you have 100000 points or 10 million points VIP or not, you have the same chance of getting that hard to get reservation....yes I want it as cheap as I can get it and yes I do rent most of what  own, But I dont see how that hurts anyone elses chances at a hard to get reservation,  What I really dont get is how you think VIPs hurt the resale market. I think if it wasnt for the mega owners, there wouldnt be any market at all.
> 
> Most of us are happy owning Wyndham points, even the VIPs that paid full developer prices for what they own. Dont begrudge them a chance to get some of that money back, and dont let our whining scare you away



Your probably absolutely right about the VIP's keeping the market up the last couple of years. They have a benefit and they bought low during the recession to take advantage of those perks. My point was when your looking to buy points and you say well if I owned I could get this week for this much but when you look for rentals you can get it for that same price or maybe a little higher. I think they are driving the market down a little now with all the cheap rentals but I absolutely dont begrudge them for trying to make some of their money back. 

What I have said is nothing against VIP's at all just seeing both sides. I still plan to buy and have been unsuccessfully bidding the past couple of weeks and will continue until I land what I want at the price at want. And I plan to supplement what I get with RCI last calls but also hopefully getting in with a few VIP's that can rent me some of the harder weeks to get or extra weeks I cant afford with my points.


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## vacationhopeful

capital city said:


> ... I think they are driving the market down a little now with all the cheap rentals but I absolutely dont begrudge them for trying to make some of their money back...



If there are CHEAP vacations, look at Extra Holidays. Remember, any Wyndham owner can assign their booked RESERVATION(s) or FIXED WEEKs to them to rent. Owners can NOT require a minimum dollar floor and minimum night stay or notification if not rented by date. So IF you have a 7 night stay and you assign it to EH to rent it, they can rent it for you with a 40% commission plus costs (such as credit card fees - you pay those fees full while EHs collects their 40% commission as a fee) for a little as 1 (ONE) NIGHT. 

You think that means, no one wanted your dates? Wrong. The first person, 6 months before checkin, could have snagged 1 day of your reservation for the 1 night rate. The other 6 nights are then "thrown away" as YOUR week is booked. And you CAN NOT find that out and won't find that out, til you get a check for $15-25 after expenses (if lucky).

Additionally, if your HOME RESORT has FIXED WEEKS ownerships and owners are not paying MFs, Extra Holidays is the "booking" agency to rent that time. Walkins and owners calling to request an extra day or two can't PAY to rent open units - as EH can't tell IF there nights available - if a partial stay was booked. And the Front Desk can tell you either.


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## ronparise

capital city said:


> Your probably absolutely right about the VIP's keeping the market up the last couple of years. They have a benefit and they bought low during the recession to take advantage of those perks. My point was when your looking to buy points and you say well if I owned I could get this week for this much but when you look for rentals you can get it for that same price or maybe a little higher. I think they are driving the market down a little now with all the cheap rentals but I absolutely dont begrudge them for trying to make some of their money back.
> 
> What I have said is nothing against VIP's at all just seeing both sides. I still plan to buy and have been unsuccessfully bidding the past couple of weeks and will continue until I land what I want at the price at want. And I plan to supplement what I get with RCI last calls but also hopefully getting in with a few VIP's that can rent me some of the harder weeks to get or extra weeks I cant afford with my points.



I see your point. That there is a place to rent your vacation accommodations, at a price cheaper than owning keeps a lot of people out of the market. and one would assume that if there are fewer buyers prices should fall.

However because you and others are there to rent what we buy...we keep buying, and that serves to keep prices up. Up higher than they would be otherwise I think. Because when I need more points (like now) Im willing to pay more to get them


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## MFT

CO skier said:


> Everyone knows that VIPs paid plenty for their privileges, but trying to get a Christmas reservation at 50% off, when so many other owners would stand in line to pay full price ... is just greedy.
> 
> Discounts are intended for underutilized or surplus inventory, not prime time.
> 
> Where did you get this bit of information?  If this were the case, than Wyndham would not post the discount on their reservation page, would they...
> 
> I don't blame VIP members for taking advantage of this option.


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## VivianLynne

MFT;1377707...Discounts are intended for underutilized or surplus inventory said:
			
		

> Those discounts are available to all owners, not just VIPs. Called *RESORT SPECIALS* and posted on the online web pages.


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## jjmanthei05

capital city said:


> Your probably absolutely right about the VIP's keeping the market up the last couple of years. They have a benefit and they bought low during the recession to take advantage of those perks. My point was when your looking to buy points and you say well if I owned I could get this week for this much but when you look for rentals you can get it for that same price or maybe a little higher. I think they are driving the market down a little now with all the cheap rentals but I absolutely dont begrudge them for trying to make some of their money back.
> 
> What I have said is nothing against VIP's at all just seeing both sides. I still plan to buy and have been unsuccessfully bidding the past couple of weeks and will continue until I land what I want at the price at want. And I plan to supplement what I get with RCI last calls but also hopefully getting in with a few VIP's that can rent me some of the harder weeks to get or extra weeks I cant afford with my points.



I have to disagree slightly. I don't think VIP's set the market, they go with what is out there. I think you have some owners who are just trying to recover MF costs so they book prime weeks and sell them at cost just to get their money back. Just look at the people over on Wyndhamowners.org that are renting out their points for at or below cost. I would think that some owners are doing the same thing with reservations. VIPs can make a go of it in the structure because of the discounts and upgrades they receive which creates their profit margin. 

Jason


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## VivianLynne

jjmanthei05 said:


> I have to disagree slightly. I don't think VIP's set the market, they go with what is out there. I think you have some owners who are just trying to recover MF costs so they book prime weeks and sell them at cost just to get their money back. Just look at the people over on Wyndhamowners.org that are renting out their points for at or below cost. I would think that some owners are doing the same thing with reservations. VIPs can make a go of it in the structure because of the discounts and upgrades they receive which creates their profit margin.
> 
> Jason



I agree. I have seen stuff below their 50% off cost and that $99 Guest Certificate fee.

Just look at our LMR thread - and get out your Wyndham Owners Directory. Just to get any dollars.

As for those sales of 500K and UP, MANY of those appear to be Club Wyndham access deeds. Wondered if those VIPs figured out, that APR at 50+ resorts means converted fixed week deeds from the older resorts as OFF SEASON and not PRIME season. My friend has FIXED WEEKS at Wyndham Santa Barbara --- would never convert those weeks to points and has asked multiple owners while staying there in March, if an Owner? Most are also Fixed Week owners or renters from those owners. Some are VIPs who used their early 11 month window to get a STUDIO for that stay.


----------



## bnoble

> Some will get out of the rental business


I suspect the number of people with a "rental business" (as opposed to sometimes renting out a reservation) is small---in the hundreds at most.  That's a drop in the bucket, even if they all sold at exactly the same time, vs. the general churn that happens in a system with hundreds of thousands of owners.



> VIPs can make a go of it in the structure because of the discounts and upgrades they receive which creates their profit margin.


I suspect it is also a case of a relatively inefficient/opaque market.  There isn't really "one place" to go to get timeshare rentals, and unless you spend a lot of time looking, it's hard to get a sense of the whole landscape as a renter.


----------



## ronparise

VivianLynne said:


> I agree. I have seen stuff below their 50% off cost and that $99 Guest Certificate fee.
> 
> Just look at our LMR thread - and get out your Wyndham Owners Directory. Just to get any dollars.
> 
> As for those sales of 500K and UP, MANY of those appear to be Club Wyndham access deeds. Wondered if those VIPs figured out, that APR at 50+ resorts means converted fixed week deeds from the older resorts as OFF SEASON and not PRIME season. My friend has FIXED WEEKS at Wyndham Santa Barbara --- would never convert those weeks to points and has asked multiple owners while staying there in March, if an Owner? Most are also Fixed Week owners or renters from those owners. Some are VIPs who used their early 11 month window to get a STUDIO for that stay.



Im not sure of the point you are making about club access. i agree that this club is a dumping ground for blue weeks, but there must be lots of good stuff in there too because the maintenance fees are a reasonable $5.40 per 1000 points, incl the both the Wyndham program fee and the Clubs administrative expenses..

That National Harbor and La Belle Maison and Bonnet Creek and Canterbury are in the mix tells me that Wyndham is feeding this club with fairly low mf, udi deeds  too.

I will buy as much as I can (at almost any price) at one resort for the ARP, but after that when I buy I consider both the mf and the purchase price and I calculate (estimate) a 10 year cost to own. It doesnt matter what resort. If I can get it within my parameters (and if I have the mad money to spend) Ill buy it. Recently Ive been bidding on the  Access contracts (and should be the proud owner of a million points by Dec 1


----------



## ronparise

VivianLynne said:


> I agree. I have seen stuff below their 50% off cost and that $99 Guest Certificate fee.
> 
> Just look at our LMR thread - and get out your Wyndham Owners Directory. Just to get any dollars.



In my rather simplistic way of looking at the world, there are  three kinds of timeshare landlords

Accidental landlords. These are the folks that bought too much or use too little themselves. I hate to make generalizations, but these folks dont know what they are doing and dont care if they make any money or not. They just want to recover some of their maintenance fees...Find one of these guys and you can get a really good deal on your vacation accommodations...but its tough to find them...remember they dont know what they are doing.

Wanna Be rental business owners or hobby shops Small time operators learning as they go. Most of them wont be around in a few months or years, but some will 

Business owners These are the guys that have figured out how to turn a buck as a timeshare middleman, ie,  renting vacation accommodations  at a small premium to mf. There are I think two types of business owners here. the small, part timers and the big guys...the so called Mega-Renters

I agree with bnoble that  Mega renters  are  few and far between. 

Speaking only for myself, (and Im not telling you where I fall on my scale) I try to make as many reservations as I can at low supply locations at high demand times. I rent these at a significant premiun to mf. With the rest of what I own Im happy to break even or even lose a little. (so far this year Ive moved about 2 million points at about $4/1000 points but now Im "sold out").  By this time next year I expect to have a Platinum account so then you can probably get a real deal on the last minute stuff


----------



## chapjim

CO skier said:


> Everyone knows that VIPs paid plenty for their privileges, but trying to get a Christmas reservation at 50% off, when so many other owners would stand in line to pay full price ... is just greedy.
> 
> Discounts are intended for underutilized or surplus inventory, not prime time.



Great!  Another know-it-all deciding who is and isn't greedy.

I don't know what discounts were intended for (nor do you but you won't admit it).  I didn't create the system or the rules.  I only use them.

If I'm greedy taking the VIP discount, I guess the people who rent from me are also greedy when they prefer to pay my discounted rental fee instead of someone else's undiscounted rental fee.  They should be willing to pay $2,400 instead of $1,200.


----------



## capital city

Since when did greedy become the "G" word. I would think that all people that shop around and look for the absolute best deal are somewhat greedy or maybe that just isnt the right word. I'm looking to buy a certain amount of points that someone likely paid 60k for at one time and I want to pay about $3500 but I won't pay more even $3700, does that make me greedy? Maybe and I don't really care.


----------



## am1

Anyone have an update on the original point.  Greed and different types of rental businesses belong in other threads.  What we have is a serious problem.  Short-term glitch or long term change?


----------



## lcml11

am1 said:


> Anyone have an update on the original point.  Greed and different types of rental businesses belong in other threads.  What we have is a serious problem.  Short-term glitch or long term change?


'
Am at a Wyndham resort now.  They are not answering questions about Voyager or what they referred to as a new resort Wyndham has.  They say check Wyndham Web page as the changes occur.  

The wait list confirmation is not occurring through Member Services at this point.  However, on a different note, when booking in a short notice resort through reservations, they did indicate that maybe the new changes may give an option to select whether regular points or cancelled points are being used when booking on line.


----------



## lcml11

Owner Care is saying that a Wait List is not part of the upcoming changes.  Wyndham Sales is saying it is now "a done deal' on Wyndham points being used for all Shell properties.  They just do not know when the effective date for the change is.


----------



## jjmanthei05

am1 said:


> Anyone have an update on the original point.  Greed and different types of rental businesses belong in other threads.  What we have is a serious problem.  Short-term glitch or long term change?



Isolated issue (i wouldn't even call it a glitch). If it was a long term change he would have never seen it come back into the system at all. He just didn't click fast enough (slow internet connection, security question popup, ect). 

Jason


----------



## am1

lcml11 said:


> Owner Care is saying that a Wait List is not part of the upcoming changes.  Wyndham Sales is saying it is now "a done deal' on Wyndham points being used for all Shell properties.  They just do not know when the effective date for the change is.



Those two departments would be the last to know.


----------



## am1

jjmanthei05 said:


> Isolated issue (i wouldn't even call it a glitch). If it was a long term change he would have never seen it come back into the system at all. He just didn't click fast enough (slow internet connection, security question popup, ect).
> 
> Jason



I wish you had info or first hand knowledge that it was an isolated issue.  Sadly, I have knowledge that it was not.


----------



## bogey21

As an outsider looking in my observation is that encouraging the "cancel rebook trick" is a strange way for a company to do business.  

George

On reflection it just dawned on me that Southwest Airlines has for years allowed you to "cancel and rebook" when fares go down.


----------



## am1

bogey21 said:


> As an outsider looking in my observation is that encouraging the "cancel rebook trick" is a strange way for a company to do business.
> 
> George



But it sells VIP.  Taking that away will cut their sales off.  At least with any kind of informed buyer.  With the uniformed they will have to dream up a new pitch.


----------



## bnoble

> I wish you had info or first hand knowledge that it was an isolated issue. Sadly, I have knowledge that it was not.


Then why ask the question in the first place?


----------



## capital city

bogey21 said:


> As an outsider looking in my observation is that encouraging the "cancel rebook trick" is a strange way for a company to do business.
> 
> George
> 
> On reflection it just dawned on me that Southwest Airlines has for years allowed you to "cancel and rebook" when fares go down.



Southwest actually let's you change your flight even to the same flight. No risk involved but thanks for reminding me. I just changed my flight to the same flight and saved $104.


----------



## jjmanthei05

am1 said:


> I wish you had info or first hand knowledge that it was an isolated issue.  Sadly, I have knowledge that it was not.



If it shows back up then it was someone picking it up. If EH got it you would never see the inventory come back into the system which is also possible. This is first hand knowledge from doing it many many times as recently as today. 

Jason


----------



## Sandi Bo

*I second that*

I agree with Jason.  If it ever showed up, someone else got it. 

If it never shows up, IMO, you are in an overbooked situation or EH wanted it (bottom line there must be a way the system is flagged to not return the room to available inventory).  

Situations come up, for example, last year Bonnet Creek had a water main break and was short 45 or so rooms.  So 45 people cancelling and rebooking could have been disapointed.  On the other hand, when the water main was fixed, a TON of rooms became available during spring break at Bonnet Creek.  I picked up a great deal - as could have anyone that was looking at the time.

And yes, as crazy as it might seem, the cancel/rebook is a VIP selling point. They do forget to explain the risk involved in the cancel/rebook process.  If you bring it up, they'll say 'just don't do it at day 60'. They like to gloss over the risk part, and sell the 'look how much value you can get for your points' part.

Thanks, OP, for posting. A good reminder to all what might happen. I'm glad you had a back up plan, have a great vacation!


----------



## NHTraveler

I just cancelled and rebooked Wyndham Royal Vista for December 28-January 3 without a problem.  After I cancelled, I went through the motions of booking for the same dates.  When I hit search, it came up empty, so I did it again and the listing appeared as available and I snagged it.  When cancelling, it does not show up as available right away.  It takes about 10-20 seconds or so.


----------



## jebloomquist

CO skier said:


> Everyone knows that VIPs paid plenty for their privileges, but trying to get a Christmas reservation at 50% off, when so many other owners would stand in line to pay full price ... is just greedy.
> 
> Discounts are intended for underutilized or surplus inventory, not prime time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A waitlist would put an end to this nonsense.
> 
> (Maybe there is already a "double secret probationary" waitlist in effect).



Imagine if you will that a fellow TUGGER said to you that they had learned of a backdoor way into the Wyndham reservation system to get reservations at 50%. Gee, if they told you how to do it, would you? Who would be greedy then?

It is our victim mentality that always wants to point a finger at the other guy. The strong do. The weak complain.

I have changed my mind on the waitlist. It would be a benefit to the mega-renters. They would put in hundreds of wait calls. The regular owners would never get any. It would make the work of finding properties a piece of cake for the mega-renters. Regular owners, shoot yourself in the foot if you want a waitlist.


----------



## am1

I was told yesterday it was going to be a demand list.  An actual waitlist would create a lot more work for Wyndham.  Not sure how true it is.

Platinum owners can see room numbers.  
Have a better search function.
Able to add guests to split reservations easier.


----------



## Sandy VDH

am1 said:


> I was told yesterday it was going to be a demand list.  An actual waitlist would create a lot more work for Wyndham.  Not sure how true it is.
> 
> Platinum owners can see room numbers.
> Have a better search function.
> Able to add guests to split reservations easier.



What exactly does a demand list do?  I don't get that. Waitlist I understand.

Glad to hear about room numbers, but my number 1 new feature request would be to select the points you want to use, so I can use cancel first, then use regular.


----------



## am1

Sandy VDH said:


> What exactly does a demand list do?  I don't get that. Waitlist I understand.



Apparently, when a room was last booked and how many people have requested those dates, resort room size.  

I guess if you know that 10, 20 or 100 people are looking for what you need you may want to adjust what you need before that is gone as well.


----------



## chapjim

capital city said:


> I'm a little confused. If VIP's say this was what they were promised and what they paid for then why do they have to cancel and rebook within a certain window? Wouldn't they just be given the % off at any time. Sounds like a calculated risk too me. I don't know why you would be offended by someone saying its greedy, it sounds like that is exactly what it is. Having said that I would absolutely be trying it with every reservation I made if I were VIP.
> 
> To be honest as I look to buy into Wyndham resale it looks like VIP's hurt the resale market as much as anyone. It looks like they rent all the good rooms at the best times at the cheapest amount of points and then rent them for barely any profit. If it wasnt for the flexibility and having RCI last call deals I wouldnt see any advantage to owning through Wyndham even at ebay prices.



On the other hand, the value of points is enhanced if one knows he can book a reservation with unused points, get a discount, rent the reservation, cover his costs and maybe make a buck.


----------



## chapjim

Just successfully re-booked two reservations:  one at La Belle Maison starting 12/28, the other at Bonnet Creek starting 12/29.

Jumped off the cliff twice, parachute opened both times!


----------



## ronparise

jebloomquist said:


> Imagine if you will that a fellow TUGGER said to you that they had learned of a backdoor way into the Wyndham reservation system to get reservations at 50%. Gee, if they told you how to do it, would you? Who would be greedy then?
> 
> It is our victim mentality that always wants to point a finger at the other guy. The strong do. The weak complain.
> 
> I have changed my mind on the waitlist. It would be a benefit to the mega-renters. They would put in hundreds of wait calls. The regular owners would never get any. It would make the work of finding properties a piece of cake for the mega-renters. Regular owners, shoot yourself in the foot if you want a waitlist.



Worldmark limits the number of waitlist requests one owner can make presumably to frustrate the "mega renter" Wyndham could do the same

I do agree, however, that "mega renters" and in my case "mega renter wanna-bes",  will figure out a way to turn a buck from what we own


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> Worldmark limits the number of waitlist requests one owner can make presumably to frustrate the "mega renter" Wyndham could do the same
> 
> I do agree, however, that "mega renters" and in my case "mega renter wanna-bes",  will figure out a way to turn a buck from what we own



WorldMark also has a rule:

There will be a 48-hour waiting period between a cancellation and a new reservation whenever the following occurs:
...
(2) The Owner is cancelling a Vacation Credit reservation and then requests to rebook that reservation as a Bonus
Time reservation;"

Bonus Time is WorldMark's version of Club Wynham's discount points, and is defined as, "... unused units are made available to
owners on a space-available basis, ..."

If book-cancel-rebook is a legitimate practice, why would WorldMark enact a rule to prohibit that very activity in their program?

There is nothing wrong with booking inventory that is available (unused) at a discount during the defined periods (50% VIP discount at 60 days, in this case),
but
cancelling* a reservation with the intent to immediately re-book it at a discount, is an unethical misrepresentation, even though there is no rule in place to specifically prohibit it.


*definition of cancel from the online Merriam Webster dictionary:

d: to call off usually without expectation of conducting or performing at a later time 


Part of the Wixon lawsuit brought by some WM owners involved "Fun Time" which gave an unfair advantage to TravelShare VIP's regarding booking Bonus Time.  Part of the settlement is that "Fun Time" is no longer a benefit offered under the TravelShare program.  I wonder if Wyndham learned anything from that experience?


----------



## ronparise

chapjim said:


> Just successfully re-booked two reservations:  one at La Belle Maison starting 12/28, the other at Bonnet Creek starting 12/29.
> 
> Jumped off the cliff twice, parachute opened both times!



So Jim...where will you be for New Years Eve?  and will you have the nerve to cancel and re book at La Belle Maison for Super Bowl or Mardi Gras?


----------



## cotraveller

CO skier said:


> WorldMark also has a rule:
> 
> There will be a 48-hour waiting period between a cancellation and a new reservation whenever the following occurs:
> ...
> (2) The Owner is cancelling a Vacation Credit reservation and then requests to rebook that reservation as a Bonus
> Time reservation;"
> .
> .
> 
> but
> cancelling* a reservation with the intent to immediately re-book it at a discount, is an unethical misrepresentation, even though there is no rule in place to specifically prohibit it.



But WorldMark does not have a rule that says you cannot cancel a Vacation Credit reservation and then immediately rebook it again as a Vacation Credit reservation.  That is more akin to what the Wyndham Cancel and Rebook option seems to be.

With WorldMark there is no credit advantage to doing that since the credit values don't change with time.  There is a no-penalty cancellation advantage though, since you can change the cancellation time from 30 days for reservations made beyond 90 days in advance to 10 days for reservations made less than 90 days in advance, or to 2 days for reservations made 14 days or less in advance.  That can be helpful if travel plans are uncertain or are weather dependent, such as when we plan to drive west across the mountains in the winter.  Is taking advantage of the WorldMark rules in that manner unethical also?

If you cancel and try to rebook with WorldMark you run the risk of losing your reservation both to the wait list and to another owner.  With Wyndham there is apparently also a risk of losing your reservation based on  the comments in this thread.  You take a risk and live with the consequences.  It's called understanding the system and making the best use of it for your circumstances.


----------



## CO skier

CO skier said:


> WorldMark also has a rule:
> 
> There will be a 48-hour waiting period between a cancellation and a new reservation whenever the following occurs:
> ...
> (2) The Owner is cancelling a Vacation Credit reservation and then requests to rebook that reservation as a Bonus
> Time reservation;"
> .
> .
> but
> cancelling* a reservation with the intent to immediately re-book it at a discount, is an unethical misrepresentation, even though there is no rule in place to specifically prohibit it.





cotraveller said:


> But WorldMark does not have a rule that says you cannot cancel a Vacation Credit reservation and then immediately rebook it again as a Vacation Credit reservation.



There is no rule, because one full credit reservation is being traded for another full credit reservation.



cotraveller said:


> That is more akin to what the Wyndham Cancel and Rebook option seems to be.



The difference being discussed here is that within 45-60 days of arrival, VIP Platinum members can cancel a full points reservation, then immediately rebook that exact reservation for only 50% of the required points, without anyone else who may be interested in reserving the time at full price, to do so.



cotraveller said:


> With WorldMark there is no credit advantage to doing that since the credit values don't change with time.  There is a no-penalty cancellation advantage though, since you can change the cancellation time from 30 days for reservations made beyond 90 days in advance to 10 days for reservations made less than 90 days in advance, or to 2 days for reservations made 14 days or less in advance.  That can be helpful if travel plans are uncertain or are weather dependent, such as when we plan to drive west across the mountains in the winter.  Is taking advantage of the WorldMark rules in that manner unethical also?



There is no problem here because full credit reservations are being exchanged for full credit reservations.



cotraveller said:


> If you cancel and try to rebook with WorldMark you run the risk of losing your reservation both to the wait list and to another owner.  With Wyndham there is apparently also a risk of losing your reservation based on  the comments in this thread.



With WorldMark, it would be a virtually certainty that you would lose a Christmas or other high-demand reservation to the waitlist. With Club Wynham, it is apparently not that difficult to cancel and rebook a high-demand reservation at 50% off -- because there is no waitlist and no 48-hour waiting period to re-book a reservation at a discount.



cotraveller said:


> You take a risk and live with the consequences.  It's called understanding the system and making the best use of it for your circumstances.



There is nothing wrong with maximizing one's use of their timeshare. When it is at the expense of fellow owners, that is not right. The fear of the waitlist on the part of people engaged in book-cancel-rebook speaks volumes.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> There is nothing wrong with maximizing one's use of their timeshare. When it is at the expense of fellow owners, that is not right. The fear of the waitlist on the part of people engaged in book-cancel-rebook speaks volumes.



There is nothing here that is "at the expense" of another owner.


if I use a reservation I made months ago, thats a reservation no other owner can use
If I cancel a reservation I made months ago and  rebook it at a discount, then use it, thats still a reservation no other owner can use..

Either way I havent taken something from you..I just got to it first.  Im not afraid of a wait list because I wont be able to take advantage of other owners. 

A waiting list wont make more high demand reservations available, There are a finite number of them and that wont change. For example there are only about 150 Wyndham timeshare suites available to Wyndham Points owners, in New Orleans.  And there are over 500000 Wyndham owners. So you and I have a 1 in 3000 chance of getting one of them for Mardi Gras. (Its actually much better than that if you own points at La Belle Maison or Avenue Plaza or Club Wyndham Access. Its much worse if you own somewhere else)  And a  waiting list wont stop me from trying to get more than my fair share in the first minutes they become available


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> There is nothing here that is "at the expense" of another owner.



Here are just two examples how book-cancel-rebook negatively impacts other owners:

1)  If there were a 48-hour waiting period before being able to rebook at a discount, or a waitlist, or some other such disincentive, very few VIPs would waste their time trying to rebook a holiday week at a discount because they would likely lose the reservation.  Everyone would then be booking holiday weeks at full (points) price.   Rebooking at a 50% discount, frees up 50% of the points from the initial reservaiton to compete with another owner for a different reservation.  It does not seem unreasonable to imagine that many millions of Prime season points are involved in the 50% rebooking process.

2)  Plenty of owners complain about not being able to book the vacation they want.  There would certainly be no shortage of owners who would like Christmans vacation if another owner cancelled theirs.  What if an attempted Prime season VIP cancel-rebook week is grabbed by Extra Vacations.  That week, that another owner would have liked to use, is rented to someone who may not even be a member of the Club.


----------



## csxjohn

CO skier said:


> Here are just two examples how book-cancel-rebook negatively impacts other owners:
> 
> Rebooking at a 50% discount, frees up 50% of the points from the initial reservaiton to compete with another owner for a different reservation.  It does not seem unreasonable to imagine that many millions of Prime season points are involved in the 50% rebooking process.....



This is a valid point.  The VIP using this perk actually has more points to use than he owns at the detriment to other points owners.

However, this is a selling point that Wyndham uses to sell overpriced retail points.  It's also a way for them to sell more points than there are units available. ( Don't really oversell but allow more trades for the points bought.) Someone is going to suffer, guess who?  The poor folks who won't pay the tens of thousands to participate.


----------



## pacodemountainside

It appears a basic fact of life is being ignored. No matter where  one turns there are VIPs, FFM  Elite,  fan clubs,  distinguished big  donors to a cause,  etc., noblesse oblige.

Anyone  stupid/scammed  enough to pay Wyndham some $50K can get Silver VIP and goes up from there.  OK,  down if really savvy with PIC and  special deals which very few  know about!

However, this is  simply a  prepaid   discount on  ones future usage.  Wyndham sales  paid  VOI Trust some  $12 million cash  for perks in  2011.  For   discount points they  reimbursed Trust from Developer inventory just like  bonus weeks.

Yes, the peasants sit in back of plane, don't get invites to Presidential inauguration,  get seats  in the back  and on sides at theater, etc.


As   infamous robber Barron of  circa 1900  said,  it only costs  a little more to go first class and  much more enjoyable.


----------



## lcml11

csxjohn said:


> This is a valid point.  The VIP using this perk actually has more points to use than he owns at the detriment to other points owners.
> 
> However, this is a selling point that Wyndham uses to sell overpriced retail points.  It's also a way for them to sell more points than there are units available. ( Don't really oversell but allow more trades for the points bought.) Someone is going to suffer, guess who?  The poor folks who won't pay the tens of thousands to participate.



Under the current Wyndham System, developer purchases are sold at a very very high premium for the VIP eligable points and not necessarily even getting VIP benifits until a very high number of developer points are purchased.

Short notice reservations at a discount are part of the current Wyndham System.  Resale timeshares are not charged the premium from the developer for a purchase.  The premium charged by the developer is what pays for buy-backs, new developments, and new inventory from other developers.  This is what is adding to inventory when the day is done and not taking it away.


----------



## bogey21

csxjohn said:


> It's also a way for them to sell more points than there are units available. ( Don't really oversell but allow more trades for the points bought.)



An interesting point.  Theoretically if everyone could get units for half the designated points, Wyndham would at some point in time run out of available units.  If this is true, isn't it likely that someone is being disadvantaged by this practice?

George


----------



## CO skier

csxjohn said:


> However, this is a selling point that Wyndham uses to sell overpriced retail points.



The Wyndham sales department has never been known for their high ethical standards.  It is a cliche to write that they will say whatever they can to make a sale.  The book-cancel-rebook just kind of fell into their lap, and they are running with it.

The cautionary tale here is that "just because this is what the salesliar said, does not mean this is what you bought."  You only own what is written on your ownership documents, and you won't find the book-cancel-rebook "benefit" written on any Wyndham paperwork; it could (and some people might think it should) disappear tomorrow, ... or next month or next year.

This does not help those VIPs who bought based on these misrepresentations.  It does, however, provide something to think about for those who may be considering upgreeding (I love that term) to Platinum VIP for what may be a limited time opportunity to "double your membership points."

For the record, I think the VIP 50% discount (or any other VIP discount, or Resort Special) is a worthwhile benefit, as intended.  If you can book 12 weeks of vacation with 6 weeks of points, because the inventory is there just waiting for you, good for you; you paid dearly for this privilege, and you deserve it.  The line that is crossed is when this benefit is technically abused to rebook a Prime time reservation as if it were "unused at 60-day" inventory.


----------



## CO skier

bogey21 said:


> An interesting point.  Theoretically if everyone could get units for half the designated points, Wyndham would at some point in time run out of available units.  If this is true, isn't it likely that someone is being disadvantaged by this practice?
> 
> George



Not to appear that I am disputing my own (very valid) points, but the 50% VIP discount reservations still use the regular number of points, it is just that the other 50% of the points are supplied by the VIP program.  (This is only my limited understanding; I am not 100% certain, so if someone has more accurate information PLEASE help).  The effect is that millions (billions?) of otherwise useless developer points are sucked into the reservation system, thereby diluting the available inventory for other owners.  (No wonder that Wyndham would _not _have a vested interest in seeing an end to this practice.  Will it take another lawsuit?).

The points available versus units available still has to balance, so, taken to an extreme, it would not be possible for even half (probably not even one-quarter -- didn't run the arithmetic) of the owners to attain VIP status and book-cancel-rebook at discounted points; i.e., if it were a "sold out" system, book-cancel-rebook, or any other discount would not be allowed, because the extra developer points to support the discount would not be available.


----------



## ronparise

csxjohn said:


> This is a valid point.  The VIP using this perk actually has more points to use than he owns at the detriment to other points owners.



This argument reminds me of the guy in the park, tearing his newspaper into small pieces and spreading them around the bench he is sitting on. When I asked him what he was doing he said "it keeps the elephants away" When I said "but there are no elephants in this park" he said...."see, it works"

this is a classic non sequitur

sure the guy in your story  has more points and he gets more reservations, but to say those reservations come at someone else's expense, just doesnt follow.. Thats like saying two plus two equals blue

one owner  has no better chance of booking any one reservation  than any other owner. and whoever gets the reservation  doesnt get it at the expense of the other

At 7 am exactly 10 months ahead of a special event week, you and I the other 500000 Wyndham points owners with points in our accounts have exactly the same chance of getting a reservation. (almost no chance, because the ARP guys got there first).  And it doesnt matter if some of our points came as a result of a 50% discount or because of a cancellation earlier in the year,  or from a bonus given with a recent developer purchase. or with next years points that are in the points credit pool. or from our regular use years points. Some of us are getting the reservation and most of us are not. And the ones that get it, get it because they were lucky and because they planned ahead . No one took advantage of anyone else


----------



## ronparise

bogey21 said:


> An interesting point.  Theoretically if everyone could get units for half the designated points, Wyndham would at some point in time run out of available units.  If this is true, isn't it likely that someone is being disadvantaged by this practice?
> 
> George



It isnt true...if everone was VIP, whats so special about that?  and when there are too many VIPs Wyndham will raise the bar...again


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> At 7 am exactly 10 months ahead of a special event week, you and I the other 500000 Wyndham points owners with points in our accounts have exactly the same chance of getting a reservation. (almost no chance, because the ARP guys got there first).  And it doesnt matter if some of our points came as a result of a 50% discount or because of a cancellation earlier in the year,  or from a bonus given with a recent developer purchase. or with next years points that are in the points credit pool. or from our regular use years points. Some of us are getting the reservation and most of us are not. And the ones that get it, get it because they were lucky and because they planned ahead . No one took advantage of anyone else



The point of the discussion has nothing to do with when the reservations are initially made.  It has to do with what happens to the reservations, whenever they are made, *after the 60-day mark*.  Maybe examples will illustrate the point:

8 units are available for a Prime time reservation.  The first 8 people in line get them for full points price.  They all go on their reserved vacation.  Simple.  No developer points are freed-up to compete with other owners.

8 units are available for a Prime time reservation.  The first 8 people in line get them for full points price, let's say 300k per unit.  3 Platinum VIPs successfully cancel and rebook the same reservation at a 50% discount.  This frees up 450k (for the arithmetically challenged, 3 times 300k =900k, 50% times 900k = 450k) points that can be used to compete with other owners for other reservations.  Here is the key difference (and I cannot fathom why it is so difficult for people to comprehend), if there were a waitlist or other such disincentive, those 3 VIPs would not have cancelled their reservation to try to rebook it.  Either they would not have made it in first place, because they intended to rent it using the 50% discount to make it competitive, and they know with a waitlist the chance for a 50% discount is non-existent, or they would just keep it to use it, because that is what they intended when they made the reservation.  Either way, 450k points of developer points are not freed-up to compete with other owners for other reservations.  (Is this really so hard to understand?)

With a waitlist, any Prime season cancellations are taken by owners willing to pay the full points price; no developer points are freed to compete with other owner's reservations.  (I feel that I am repeating myself).


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> This argument reminds me of the guy in the park, tearing his newspaper into small pieces and spreading them around the bench he is sitting on. When I asked him what he was doing he said "it keeps the elephants away" When I said "but there are no elephants in this park" he said...."see, it works"
> 
> this is a classic non sequitur



A non-sequitur offered to "prove" that something is a non-sequitur is a circular non-sequitur.


----------



## cotraveller

CO skier said:


> With WorldMark, it would be a virtually certainty that you would lose a Christmas or other high-demand reservation to the waitlist.



Not necessarily, it depends on the timing.  But the nitty gritty nuts and bolts  of WorldMark reservations and the WorldMark waitlist is a different subject for a different thread.



CO skier said:


> The fear of the waitlist on the part of people engaged in book-cancel-rebook speaks volumes.



I suspect that those Wyndham owners would quickly learn the new neat things they could do with the waitlist.  Every rule change designed to close someones perceived loophole creates new opportunities.


----------



## am1

CO skier said:


> With a waitlist, any Prime season cancellations are taken by owners willing to pay the full points price; no developer points are freed to compete with other owner's reservations.  (I feel that I am repeating myself).



What would a developer do with those 450k points?  They are not a charity.  

A waitlist will not work.  Too many owners, room sizes and resorts. Maybe a 13 month ARP or 10 month lottery could work and also benefit people without too much effort.


----------



## CO skier

am1 said:


> 1)  What would a developer do with those 450k points?  They are not a charity.
> 
> 2)  A waitlist will not work.  Too many owners, room sizes and resorts. Maybe a 13 month ARP or 10 month lottery could work and also benefit people without too much effort.



1)  They would pay the maintenance fees on them, and they would expire, worthless -- (and would not have been used to displace another owner's potential reservation).


2)  WorldMark owners seem to just Love their waitlist, because the success rate is quite high.  They can have up to 8 at a time; different rooms types; they can waitlist an entire summer at a resort (and that would be only one of their 8 allotment); lots of options.  The computer is working for them 24/7 looking for those "cancellations."

There already is 13 month ARP at Club Wyndham home resorts.  At 13 months or 10 months, as appropriate, it is first-come-gets-the-reservation; the rules are spelled-out, and it is all above board.  A waitlist, though, would benefit those that did not get through in time.



Owning both Club Wyndham and WorldMark, my personal opinion, for what it is worth, is that WorldMark is a more egalitarian system, but is has its problems, too.  Both systems provide me with what I want from my timeshare resorts.  In the end, that's what counts.


----------



## jjmanthei05

CO skier said:


> The point of the discussion has nothing to do with when the reservations are initially made.  It has to do with what happens to the reservations, whenever they are made, *after the 60-day mark*.  Maybe examples will illustrate the point:
> 
> 8 units are available for a Prime time reservation.  The first 8 people in line get them for full points price.  They all go on their reserved vacation.  Simple.  No developer points are freed-up to compete with other owners.
> 
> 8 units are available for a Prime time reservation.  The first 8 people in line get them for full points price, let's say 300k per unit.  3 Platinum VIPs successfully cancel and rebook the same reservation at a 50% discount.  This frees up 450k (for the arithmetically challenged, 3 times 300k =900k, 50% times 900k = 450k) points that can be used to compete with other owners for other reservations.  Here is the key difference (and I cannot fathom why it is so difficult for people to comprehend), if there were a waitlist or other such disincentive, those 3 VIPs would not have cancelled their reservation to try to rebook it.  Either they would not have made it in first place, because they intended to rent it using the 50% discount to make it competitive, and they know with a waitlist the chance for a 50% discount is non-existant, or they would just keep it to use it, because that is what they intended when they made the reservation.  Either way, 450k points of developer points are not freed-up to compete with other owners for other reservations.  (Is this really so hard to understand?)
> 
> With a waitlist, any Prime season cancellations are taken by owners willing to pay the full points price; no developer points are freed to compete with other owner's reservations.  (I feel that I am repeating myself).



I think the point your missing is the 50% of points the VIP owner gets back isn't (most likely) another hot prime reservation. They are using those points to pick up low demand weeks to use up their points. So the VIP cancel and rebook is really costing you lower demand weeks. 

Jason


----------



## CO skier

jjmanthei05 said:


> I think the point your missing is the 50% of points the VIP owner gets back isn't (most likely) another hot prime reservation. They are using those points to pick up low demand weeks to use up their points. So the VIP cancel and rebook is really costing you lower demand weeks.
> 
> Jason



No, the point is, "Why should anyone get a 50% discount, and free-up developer points, on reservations that are so in-demand, that with a waitlist in effect, they would always be booked using full points from owners?"


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> The point of the discussion has nothing to do with when the reservations are initially made.  It has to do with what happens to the reservations, whenever they are made, *after the 60-day mark*.  Maybe examples will illustrate the point:
> 
> 8 units are available for a Prime time reservation.  The first 8 people in line get them for full points price.  They all go on their reserved vacation.  Simple.  No developer points are freed-up to compete with other owners.
> 
> 8 units are available for a Prime time reservation.  The first 8 people in line get them for full points price, let's say 300k per unit.  3 Platinum VIPs successfully cancel and rebook the same reservation at a 50% discount.  This frees up 450k (for the arithmetically challenged, 3 times 300k =900k, 50% times 900k = 450k) points that can be used to compete with other owners for other reservations.  Here is the key difference (and I cannot fathom why it is so difficult for people to comprehend), if there were a waitlist or other such disincentive, those 3 VIPs would not have cancelled their reservation to try to rebook it.  Either they would not have made it in first place, because they intended to rent it using the 50% discount to make it competitive, and they know with a waitlist the chance for a 50% discount is non-existent, or they would just keep it to use it, because that is what they intended when they made the reservation.  Either way, 450k points of developer points are not freed-up to compete with other owners for other reservations.  (Is this really so hard to understand?)
> 
> With a waitlist, any Prime season cancellations are taken by owners willing to pay the full points price; no developer points are freed to compete with other owner's reservations.  (I feel that I am repeating myself).



two points 

1) if there are 8 reservations available after the 60 mark and Ive made this reservation for myself,  instead of cancelling and re booking, I will book and cancel. and when Im done there will still be 8 reservations available

2) if there are 8 reservations available after the 60 day and my intent was to rent for a profit then I can do the same thing;  book and then cancel. But the reality is; if there are 8 available reservations, and I havent rented mine, Ive made a mistake,,,its not a high demand time and I probably wont be able to rent it for the profit I want, even with my discount, so Ill probably just cancel

I may do this differently than others, but if Im dealing with a reservation Ive rented, I dont cancel and re book

How do you feel about me watching the computer for hours on end at 15-20 days before a big event and grabbing cancellations, at my discounted price, to rent?  I've taken a prime week at a discounted price away from someone willing to pay full price....my bad

I know that the purpose of the discounts is to provide a incentive to the folks that spend big money with the developer. And that its intended purpose is to use up surplus inventory. That there is loophole created that allows discounts for prime weeks is an unintended side effect. I fail to see however, how that loophole hurts anyone else

I dont disagree with your math and I dont disagree about developer points, I just dont see how they make your case that when I do cancel and rebook, its done at the expense of someone else

If there is a waiting list I will lose the ability to get the discount for the prime weeks I want, but I will still get my reservations, because Im buying for ARP and I get up early. And if  I dont get what I need,  Illl be first on the waiting list...Ill find a way... (am I repeating myself again?) Ill find the unintended consequences and use them


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> two points
> 
> 1) if there are 8 reservations available after the 60 mark and Ive made this reservation for myself,  instead of cancelling and re booking, I will book and cancel. and when Im done there will still be 8 reservations available
> 
> 2) if there are 8 reservations available after the 60 day and my intent was to rent for a profit then I can do the same thing;  book and then cancel. But the reality is; if there are 8 available reservations, and I havent rented mine, Ive made a mistake,,,its not a high demand time and I probably wont be able to rent it for the profit I want, even with my discount, so Ill probably just cancel
> 
> I may do this differently than others, but if Im dealing with a reservation Ive rented, I dont cancel and re book
> 
> How do you feel about me watching the computer for hours on end at 15-20 days before a big event and grabbing cancellations, at my discounted price, to rent?  I've taken a prime week at a discounted price away from someone willing to pay full price....my bad
> 
> I know that the purpose of the discounts is to provide a incentive to the folks that spend big money with the developer. And that its intended purpose is to use up surplus inventory. That there is loophole created that allows discounts for prime weeks is an unintended side effect. I fail to see however, how that loophole hurts anyone else
> 
> I dont disagree with your math and I dont disagree about developer points, I just dont see how they make your case that when I do cancel and rebook, its done at the expense of someone else
> 
> If there is a waiting list I will lose the ability to get the discount for the prime weeks I want, but I will still get my reservations, because Im buying for ARP and I get up early. And if  I dont get what I need,  Illl be first on the waiting list...Ill find a way... (am I repeating myself again?) Ill find the unintended consequences and use them



Sorry, I can see that my illustration was not detailed enough to covey what I was thinking.  Here are some clarifications (green italicized additions):



CO skier said:


> The point of the discussion has nothing to do with when the reservations are initially made.  It has to do with what happens to the reservations, whenever they are made, *after the 60-day mark*.  Maybe examples will illustrate the point:
> 
> 8 units are available for a Prime time reservation.  _At 13 months,_ The first 8 people in line get them for full points price.  They all go on their reserved vacation.  Simple.  No developer points are freed-up to compete with other owners.
> 
> 8 units are available for a Prime time reservation.  _At 13 months,_ The first 8 people in line get them for full points price, let's say 300k per unit.  _At 60 days,_ 3 Platinum VIPs successfully cancel and rebook the same reservation at a 50% discount ...



So, for any reservations waiting to be picked-up at the 60-day mark, the 50% discount is appropriate, because this is what it is intended for.  The hottests weeks will have been booked at 13 months, of course, and won't be waiting around at 60 days.

If you are on the computer, and another owner cancels their Christmas vacation or other prime week within the 60 day discount period, and you can book it for the discount, this is within the intended rules of the game.  It is legitimately open inventory (the previous owner is done with it for good) that anyone can book (or that a waitlist, if in place, could pick-up automatically for another owner).  The problem with the book-cancel-rebook is that the owner has no intention of cancelling (giving up for good) the reservation; they are only cancelling so that they can immediately rebook it for a discount.  (The difference seems obvious to me, but there is the explanation).



ronparise said:


> I know that the purpose of the discounts is to provide a incentive to the folks that spend big money with the developer. And that its intended purpose is to use up surplus inventory. That there is loophole created that allows discounts for prime weeks is an unintended side effect. I fail to see however, how that loophole hurts anyone else
> 
> I dont disagree with your math and I dont disagree about developer points, I just dont see how they make your case that when I do cancel and rebook, its done at the expense of someone else



I can't explain how the book-cancel-rebook impacts other owners any better than I already have, and it seems pointless to repeat it yet again.  A couple of people, at least, seem to have caught on to the idea.  The WorldMark system seems to acknowledge that there is harm to other owners from this practice, and has already dealt with the problem on a couple of levels.


----------



## markb53

Let me see if I have got this straight.
Let say I am a platinum owner.  I use 308k points and at 10 months out I book a 3br at bonnet creek. Then 60 day before the checkin date I cancel and rebook for 154k. I don't see how this part effects anyone other than me. The 3br wasn't there before the 60 day point and it is not there after I cancel and rebook. So I now have 154k canceled points so I pick a 1 BR at cypress palms. Which I wouldn't have been able to pickup except I have those canceled points. This is the part that it seem like some of you should be complaining about. That I would be competing with other owners who wanted to get Cypress Palms. The problem with what I layed out above is that the canceled points would have to be used by the end of my use year. Which means that unless the first reservation was made within the first 4 months of my use year, the second reservation would have to be made less then 10 months out. Which means I would not be getting a high demand resort or a high demand time.

One of the advantages of 60 day discount for platinum owners, is that the rest of us can rent from them at a discounted rate. If you can travel in the off season.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> I can't explain how the book-cancel-rebook impacts other owners any better than I already have, and it seems pointless to repeat it yet again.  A couple of people, at least, seem to have caught on to the idea.  The WorldMark system seems to acknowledge that there is harm to other owners from this practice, and has already dealt with the problem on a couple of levels.



I think I understand...so let me repeat it

Assuming Platinum ownership

If I cancel and rebook a 300000 point reservation, there are  150000 points   "created"  in my account that I wouldnt have otherwise had

And with those points I can compete for  another prime reservation. And if not for me competing for that reservation, it would have gone to another owner

Is that the essence of your argument?


----------



## ronparise

markb53 said:


> Let me see if I have got this straight.
> Let say I am a platinum owner.  I use 308k points and at 10 months out I book a 3br at bonnet creek. Then 60 day before the checkin date I cancel and rebook for 154k. I don't see how this part effects anyone other than me. The 3br wasn't there before the 60 day point and it is not there after I cancel and rebook. So I now have 154k canceled points so I pick a 1 BR at cypress palms. Which I wouldn't have been able to pickup except I have those canceled points. This is the part that it seem like some of you should be complaining about. That I would be competing with other owners who wanted to get Cypress Palms. The problem with what I layed out above is that the canceled points would have to be used by the end of my use year. Which means that unless the first reservation was made within the first 4 months of my use year, the second reservation would have to be made less then 10 months out. Which means I would not be getting a high demand resort or a high demand time.
> 
> One of the advantages of 60 day discount for platinum owners, is that the rest of us can rent from them at a discounted rate. If you can travel in the off season.



Certain pairs of high demand weeks do work for this:  
Early year events  like Bike Fest, Presidents week skiing, Mardi Gras 
Late Year  events  like  Christmas, and New Years Eve, Sugar Bowl

and these dont have to be in pairs of high demand weeks If I can rent my high value stuff at a premium I can get anything from the "free" points,,,its all profit


----------



## am1

Wyndham does not just pay the fees on their unsold points and then let them expire. Thinking that way loses any credibility that you may have had.


----------



## capital city

You cant take one sentence from his whole argument and say the rest of it means nothing. I think all the political commercials may be getting to you


----------



## am1

capital city said:


> You cant take one sentence from his whole argument and say the rest of it means nothing. I think all the political commercials may be getting to you



If he is completely wrong on my one question then I have to question everything he says. 

I am saying that if VIP did not get their 50% discount, Wyndham corporate would not let the points go to waste but rent them to owners,  rent more through extra holidays, give to RCI, more free stays to marks, etc.  

Not giving the VIP discount would not increase the amount of units available for non VIPS.  People are welcome to debate the quality of the units available because of any change in practice.


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> I think I understand...so let me repeat it
> 
> Assuming Platinum ownership
> 
> If I cancel and rebook a 300000 point reservation, there are  150000 points   "created"  in my account that I wouldnt have otherwise had
> 
> And with those points I can compete for  another prime reservation. And if not for me competing for that reservation, it would have gone to another owner
> 
> Is that the essence of your argument?



Yes, that is the point.

I do not want to give anyone a "how to stick it to your fellow owner" manual, so here is a general example; people can work out the details for themselves.  It is possible for a Plat VIP to ARP 1.2 milllion points at 13 months for an event week, then at 60 days before arrival - cancel and rebook, take the 600k "bonus" points to reserve Hawaii, for example, at 10 months out, then cancel and rebook Hawaii at 60 days before arrival, taking the 300k bonus from that to book 600k worth of units using the 50% VIP discount within 60 days of use -- all of the cancel-rebooking is within their use year.  That's 2.4 million points of usage for a 1.2 million account; 1.8 million at some prime real estate within the Wyndham system.

With a waitlist in effect, the 1.2 million points would be stuck hanging on to the original event week reservations (too much risk of losing them), and the 600k Hawaii points would be available for other owners to use.  ... and who doesn't want to go to Hawaii?  Who gets to the resevations first is irrelevant, because with the waitlist, the VIP does not have 600k bonus points to get there at all.


----------



## CO skier

am1 said:


> Wyndham does not just pay the fees on their unsold points and then let them expire. Thinking that way loses any credibility that you may have had.



Wyndham undoubtedly has a bazillion points that expire every year, especially with the economy of the last few years.  Even if they managed to find a home for every point, it does not change the "Hawaii scenario" above.  The cancel-rebook unleashed 600k developer points that displaced other owners who may have wanted to book Hawaii at 10-months out.


----------



## CO skier

CO skier said:


> That's 2.4 million points of usage for a 1.2 million account ...



Using the 50% VIP discount as intended for arrivals within 60 days, the Plat VIP could still get 2.4 millions points of usage, but it would all be from whatever is leftover at 60 days -- probably not many event weeks or Hawaii trips.


----------



## csxjohn

ronparise said:


> This argument reminds me of the guy in the park, tearing his newspaper into small pieces and spreading them around the bench he is sitting on. When I asked him what he was doing he said "it keeps the elephants away" When I said "but there are no elephants in this park" he said...."see, it works"
> 
> this is a classic non sequitur
> 
> sure the guy in your story  has more points and he gets more reservations, but to say those reservations come at someone else's expense, just doesnt follow.. Thats like saying two plus two equals blue
> 
> one owner  has no better chance of booking any one reservation  than any other owner. and whoever gets the reservation  doesnt get it at the expense of the other
> 
> At 7 am exactly 10 months ahead of a special event week, you and I the other 500000 Wyndham points owners with points in our accounts have exactly the same chance of getting a reservation. (almost no chance, because the ARP guys got there first).  And it doesnt matter if some of our points came as a result of a 50% discount or because of a cancellation earlier in the year,  or from a bonus given with a recent developer purchase. or with next years points that are in the points credit pool. or from our regular use years points. Some of us are getting the reservation and most of us are not. And the ones that get it, get it because they were lucky and because they planned ahead . No one took advantage of anyone else



As you know, I'm still trying to learn Wyndham points.

I understand that for the initial reservation, everyone has equal opportunity.  It's the additional points that go back in your account giving you more vacations that appear to be hurting other points owners.  If one person is getting 50% more points, someone is not going to get a unit they want. (and that might be the person with the bonus points.)

If there are enough points out there to obtain the vacations available, how can giving out more points not have an effect on all the points owners?  Isn't someone going to get left out somewhere along the line?

I will never buy retail so I will never get this perk.  I'm just trying to understand it better.  I have friends who are VIP that I mentioned this thread to.  They told me that to cancel and rebook you need the points in your account to get the rebook before you cancel because the canceled points don't appear back in your account right away.  Is this accurate?


----------



## scootr5

csxjohn said:


> They told me that to cancel and rebook you need the points in your account to get the rebook before you cancel because the canceled points don't appear back in your account right away.  Is this accurate?



No, cancelled points will be immediately available.


----------



## lcml11

csxjohn said:


> ... I have friends who are VIP that I mentioned this thread to.  They told me that to cancel and rebook you need the points in your account to get the rebook before you cancel because the canceled points don't appear back in your account right away.  Is this accurate?



Your friends are not necessarly wrong.  Cancelled points go back into the account immediately.  If you have multiple use years, they may move forward on you in some circumstances, thereby, becoming unavailable for re-use until that cancelled use year arrives.

Also, the analysis that is developing in this thread is not a complete picture of the net effect of the VIP discounts.  If the primary issue is availablity in Prime Seasons, then, yes, some people get discounted points by reducing the number of points needed for the reservation by the VIP discount rate.  However, it fails to reconize that a lot of VIP owners will use their points for the purpose of using off season bookings thereby increasing the availablity for those that want the prime seasons or for re-sale owners for Prime Seasons, as the case may be.


----------



## pacodemountainside

csxjohn said:


> As you know, I'm still trying to learn Wyndham points.
> 
> I understand that for the initial reservation, everyone has equal opportunity.  It's the additional points that go back in your account giving you more vacations that appear to be hurting other points owners.  If one person is getting 50% more points, someone is not going to get a unit they want. (and that might be the person with the bonus points.)
> 
> 
> ******When ARP expires  everyone does have equal chance to be on phone or computer at 7:00 AM  ET   at 10 month mark.
> 
> Only enough points to make discounted reservation come out of ones account.  This leaves VOI Trust pool short of points which Developer  then deposits to keep balanced.
> 
> 
> If there are enough points out there to obtain the vacations available, how can giving out more points not have an effect on all the points owners?  Isn't someone going to get left out somewhere along the line?
> 
> *****The person left out is the procrastinator  The are so many zillion points for any resort. People who  have purchased from Developer have in VOI Trust in their name.  The unsold points are in Developers  name  and he is free to with as he  sees fit. Like owner he  can sell, rent, donate, sit on, etc.  But, yes  at any resort where demand exceeds capacity someone is going to get left out.
> 
> I will never buy retail so I will never get this perk.  I'm just trying to understand it better.  I have friends who are VIP that I mentioned this thread to.  They told me that to cancel and rebook you need the points in your account to get the rebook before you cancel because the canceled points don't appear back in your account right away.  Is this accurate?




No,  a couple years ago Trust changed policy to immediately,   well with in a few seconds to post cancellations. Before they did not post until first  thing next day making  cancel and rebook a real crap shoot. 
.


----------



## jjmanthei05

CO skier said:


> No, the point is, "Why should anyone get a 50% discount, and free-up developer points, on reservations that are so in-demand, that with a waitlist in effect, they would always be booked using full points from owners?"



So are you suggesting that a VIP should never get their discount on prime/in demand reservations even if booked within 60 days? So say there is a wait list and we are within 60 days of check in. If the first person on that waitlist is a VIP Platinum. If a reservation opens up they shouldn't get their discount? 

Jason


----------



## jjmanthei05

CO skier said:


> 1)  They would pay the maintenance fees on them, and they would expire, worthless -- (and would not have been used to displace another owner's potential reservation).



If you think Wyndham just pays the maintenance fees and lets them expire, I have some great ocean front property in Kansas to sell you. Wyndham uses the developer points to book reservations for extra holidays. So in essence a VIP is taking away reservations for Wyndham to rent not from other owners to use. Wyndham has to "balance out the system" so when an owner gets their discounts and upgrades Wyndham has to make up the point difference by using points from unsold/foreclosed contracts and puts them back into the system. I would think you would be hard pressed to find someone who is in favor of giving Wyndham more inventory to rent over it being used by actual owners vip or not. 

Jason


----------



## CO skier

jjmanthei05 said:


> So are you suggesting that a VIP should never get their discount on prime/in demand reservations even if booked within 60 days? So say there is a wait list and we are within 60 days of check in. If the first person on that waitlist is a VIP Platinum. If a reservation opens up they shouldn't get their discount?
> 
> Jason




This is from post #96:


CO skier said:


> If you are on the computer, and another owner cancels their Christmas vacation or other prime week within the 60 day discount period, and you can book it for the discount, this is within the intended rules of the game.  It is legitimately open inventory (the previous owner is done with it for good) that anyone can book (or that a waitlist, if in place, could pick-up automatically for another owner).  The problem with the book-cancel-rebook is that the owner has no intention of cancelling (giving up for good) the reservation; they are only cancelling so that they can immediately rebook it for a discount.  (The difference seems obvious to me, but there is the explanation).


----------



## CO skier

jjmanthei05 said:


> If you think Wyndham just pays the maintenance fees and lets them expire, I have some great ocean front property in Kansas to sell you. Wyndham uses the developer points to book reservations for extra holidays. So in essence a VIP is taking away reservations for Wyndham to rent not from other owners to use. Wyndham has to "balance out the system" so when an owner gets their discounts and upgrades Wyndham has to make up the point difference by using points from unsold/foreclosed contracts and puts them back into the system. I would think you would be hard pressed to find someone who is in favor of giving Wyndham more inventory to rent over it being used by actual owners vip or not.
> 
> Jason




This is from post #104



CO skier said:


> Wyndham undoubtedly has a bazillion points that expire every year, especially with the economy of the last few years.  Even if they managed to find a home for every point, it does not change the "Hawaii scenario" above.  The cancel-rebook unleashed 600k developer points that displaced other owners who may have wanted to book Hawaii at 10-months out.


----------



## vacationhopeful

I am beginning to miss rr ... :ignore:


----------



## Rent_Share

Still Lurking


----------



## rrlongwell

vacationhopeful said:


> I am beginning to miss rr ... :ignore:



I guess I got caught, still lurking.  It is nice to know someone missed me.


----------



## Rent_Share

Missed you like a person misses a case of hemorrhoids


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## rrlongwell

Rent_Share said:


> Missed you like a person misses a case of hemorrhoids



Thank you for the complement.  I have been called much worse.  Nice to know I am moving up in the world.


----------



## Explorer7

lcml11 said:


> Your friends are not necessarly wrong.  Cancelled points go back into the account immediately.  If you have multiple use years, they may move forward on you in some circumstances, thereby, becoming unavailable for re-use until that cancelled use year arrives.



Technically the points will not show up immediately on their point’s status page on the Website but they will show available on the reservation booking screen. Perhaps because they don’t see the points showing up on their points status screen until the next day or so they don’t know the cancelled points have been made available immediately.


----------



## markb53

ronparise said:


> I think I understand...so let me repeat it
> 
> Assuming Platinum ownership
> 
> If I cancel and rebook a 300000 point reservation, there are  150000 points   "created"  in my account that I wouldnt have otherwise had
> 
> And with those points I can compete for  another prime reservation. And if not for me competing for that reservation, it would have gone to another owner
> 
> Is that the essence of your argument?



Ron,
That is exactly what I was trying(unsuccessfully) to say in my post. 

If you cancel and rebook, that doesn't effect me at all. You are just taking a chance at loosing the reservation altogether to get a 50% discount. 

Is must be those "free" points that are generated by the cancel/rebook that some people object to.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Yes, that is the point.
> 
> I do not want to give anyone a "how to stick it to your fellow owner" manual, so here is a general example; people can work out the details for themselves.  It is possible for a Plat VIP to ARP 1.2 milllion points at 13 months for an event week, then at 60 days before arrival - cancel and rebook, take the 600k "bonus" points to reserve Hawaii, for example, at 10 months out, then cancel and rebook Hawaii at 60 days before arrival, taking the 300k bonus from that to book 600k worth of units using the 50% VIP discount within 60 days of use -- all of the cancel-rebooking is within their use year.  That's 2.4 million points of usage for a 1.2 million account; 1.8 million at some prime real estate within the Wyndham system.
> 
> With a waitlist in effect, the 1.2 million points would be stuck hanging on to the original event week reservations (too much risk of losing them), and the 600k Hawaii points would be available for other owners to use.  ... and who doesn't want to go to Hawaii?  Who gets to the resevations first is irrelevant, because with the waitlist, the VIP does not have 600k bonus points to get there at all.



 Ok so we agree on a starting point for our discussion. and this post of yours is exactly how I want things to unfold once I become Platinum. But I dont think I will taking anything from any other owner...I will get what I get cheaper, but not at the expense of any other owner

I have another analogy, Im not sure that this one works any better than the last one I tried, but here goes

you and I have agreed to a bet, we will flip a coin one hundred times and whoever gets the most "heads" wins the bet. Ill go first and flip 10 times, and then you flip 10 times until we each have flipped 100 times

So I go first and 10 times in a row I get "heads"  Now it your turn. Do you have any less chance to get heads when you flip?..The answer is; of course not. The fact that i got 10 in a row, makes no difference when it comes to your chances..each time we flip our coins we have an exact 50/50 chance of getting heads

I think its the same at the 10 month mark when we compete for a particular reservation. we all have an equal chance.  It doesnt matter where our points came from or how much we paid for them. we have the same chance at a reservation



You might argue that Mr Platinum wouldnt have any points at all except for the points "created" doing the cancel rebook trick, but thats just not true , I dont think  taking   "created points" out of the mix makes any real difference when it comes to getting the reservation you want. As long as there are  points in his account and as long as other owners have points available in theirs, there will be competition for those high demand reservations. We all have exactly the same chance of getting any one of them. And if I get it it isnt because I took it from you, its because I have a faster computer, or better mousing skills, or I live on the east coast and you dont so 7 am east coast time isnt too early for me (Hello Paco...its Jan 28 next year...but Ill have ARP at LBM by then) or Im just lucky

The fact that some folks  have a few more points than I do (doubtful) and that they created them out of nothing is meaningless to my chances of getting the reservations I want. i am envious of the discounts platinum owners can get but I dont think they get what they get in the way of reservations because of them. The fact is that Ill get more reservations because I own more points


----------



## capital city

One other thing to consider is how many VIP owners would want those weeks in the first place if they knew they couldn't get 50% off the points by canceling and re-booking. 

I really don't see the argument that they are using those extra points to book in the off season so its not hurting anyone. I would think with the ability to have multiple contracts with differing anniversary dates, point banking, and credit pooling anyone with a calender and calculator could figure out a way to still use those points for prime spots and prime dates.


----------



## ronparise

markb53 said:


> Ron,
> That is exactly what I was trying(unsuccessfully) to say in my post.
> 
> If you cancel and rebook, that doesn't effect me at all. You are just taking a chance at loosing the reservation altogether to get a 50% discount.
> 
> Is must be those "free" points that are generated by the cancel/rebook that some people object to.



You and I were posting at the same time...just like now...we gotta get a life


----------



## ronparise

capital city said:


> One other thing to consider is how many VIP owners would want those weeks in the first place if they knew they couldn't get 50% off the points by canceling and re-booking.
> 
> I really don't see the argument that they are using those extra points to book in the off season so its not hurting anyone. I would think with the ability to have multiple contracts with differing anniversary dates, point banking, and credit pooling anyone with a calender and calculator could figure out a way to still use those points for prime spots and prime dates.



I think you are exactly right, at least in my case you are...Im not a platinum owner, but I do have a lot of points and I generally get what I want, and they are typically high demand big event reservations. I do have have multiple contracts with differing anniversary dates, I do use the points credit pool and calender and calculator to figure out a way to use my points for prime spots and prime dates...I can make as much as I would as a Platinum owner doing the cancel and rebook game, by just buying more points


----------



## lcml11

capital city said:


> One other thing to consider is how many VIP owners would want those weeks in the first place if they knew they couldn't get 50% off the points by canceling and re-booking.
> 
> I really don't see the argument that they are using those extra points to book in the off season so its not hurting anyone. I would think with the ability to have multiple contracts with differing anniversary dates, point banking, and credit pooling anyone with a calender and calculator could figure out a way to still use those points for prime spots and prime dates.



If that is the intent of a large point holder, it could absolutly be done.  A wait list would be a great addition to this line of thinking if there were enough points to support this plan.  I believe, a couple of different posters on other threads have indicated this is a very effective tactic.

A million point Platinum VIP owner could pool their future year points into the credit pool for the book, cancel, re-book trick.  That would give a pool of 3 milion points available to support this project.  Then, if succesful, the excess points can be moved forward by the proper use of the multiple use year  dates to move them forward into the next use year.  This could go on year in and year out.


----------



## tschwa2

I guess the part I would object to the most if I were a Wyndham owner, would be the trick where Platinum members reserve the 1 bedroom, 2 bedroom and larger unit when they know they only intend to keep the 2 or larger unit.  This keeps inventory out of the hands of regular members and even though the other units are released they become available very late and make planing family vacations difficult.


----------



## lcml11

tschwa2 said:


> I guess the part I would object to the most if I were a Wyndham owner, would be the trick where Platinum members reserve the 1 bedroom, 2 bedroom and larger unit when they know they only intend to keep the 2 or larger unit.  This keeps inventory out of the hands of regular members and even though the other units are released they become available very late and make planing family vacations difficult.



As a probable receiptant of the leftover reservations during prime season, I think this is great.  I probably would not get my Summer reservations any other way with a great discount.


----------



## lcml11

lcml11 said:


> As a probable receiptant of the leftover reservations during prime season, I think this is great.  I probably would not get my Summer reservations any other way with a great discount.



Not to mention, if one were greedy, add to the above a Platinum member buying large points contracts at great locations for the ARP rights and large point contracts at low maintance fee resorts that are in great shape to lower the average maintance fees in the account.


----------



## gnorth16

*One of the more interesting threads recently*

but to clarify, 

Resale points do not count towards VIP, but if you purchase some points via direct, you can "retro" (like with starwood) the rest of your resale points?


----------



## lcml11

gnorth16 said:


> but to clarify,
> 
> Resale points do not count towards VIP, but if you purchase some points via direct, you can "retro" (like with starwood) the rest of your resale points?



From other posts on other threads, I understand that if one has a Platinum account, re-sale contracts can be added to it and they get the existing VIP discount.  However, the re-sale points do not count as VIP eligable points when determining the account discount.

In other words, re-sale contracts can be added to an existing VIP Planinum Account.  The points could then be credit pooled in mass.  High value prime weeks could then be booked and then subsquently re-booked at the discount, if it works, for a 50 percent discount.  These points could then be re-used for subsquent high value weeks.  Do this for the prime summer resorts following it on with shorter notice prime summer or holiday reservations followed by high value winter resorts.

By accelerating point usage from future years, you get the high value weeks rent in the current year leaving the payment for these weeks to Wyndham in the form of maintance fees for future years.  

Basically, you get a free loan of money from Wyndham.


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> Not to mention, if one were greedy, add to the above a Platinum member buying large points contracts at great locations for the ARP rights and large point contracts at low maintance fee resorts that are in great shape to lower the average maintance fees in the account.




Im not Platinum but I guess Im greedy, I just bought 900000 points at National Harbor (low MF) and 1,000,000 at La Belle Maison for the ARP

Actually you could have had these too, they were advertised, one here on TUG and the other on RedWeek

So am I greedy and you are not, or is it something else


----------



## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> From other posts on other threads, I understand that if one has a Platinum account, re-sale contracts can be added to it and they get the existing VIP discount.  However, the re-sale points do not count as VIP eligable points when determining the account discount.
> 
> In other words, re-sale contracts can be added to an existing VIP Planinum Account.  The points could then be credit pooled in mass.  High value prime weeks could then be booked and then subsquently re-booked at the discount, if it works, for a 50 percent discount.  These points could then be re-used for subsquent high value weeks.  Do this for the prime summer resorts following it on with shorter notice prime summer or holiday reservations followed by high value winter resorts.
> 
> By accelerating point usage from future years, you get the high value weeks rent in the current year leaving the payment for these weeks to Wyndham in the form of maintance fees for future years.
> 
> Basically, you get a free loan of money from Wyndham.



Exactly right...Thats why Ill be spending $12000 to be platinum next year unless Voyager adds a waiting list. if that happens Ill buy another load of points with the money


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> Exactly right...Thats why Ill be spending $12000 to be platinum next year unless Voyager adds a waiting list. if that happens Ill buy another load of points with the money



Plenty greedy enough, just do not have the guts to do it.

Other possable combinations exist.  HI plus Smokey Mountain, Myrtle Beach plus National Harbor, Mytle Beach resorts other than Towers on the Grove plus Towers on the Grove, etc.


----------



## ronparise

tschwa2 said:


> I guess the part I would object to the most if I were a Wyndham owner, would be the trick where Platinum members reserve the 1 bedroom, 2 bedroom and larger unit when they know they only intend to keep the 2 or larger unit.  This keeps inventory out of the hands of regular members and even though the other units are released they become available very late and make planing family vacations difficult.



I used this trick once for my own  use and Ill never do it again. If it had failed I would have had 6 of us in a 1 bedroom. and an end to my marriage.

I would use this trick for rentals as long as I hadnt rented either unit


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> ...I can make as much as I would as a Platinum owner doing the cancel and rebook game, by just buying more points



Sure you can do as well as a Plat VIP using regular points (if you have enough).  These are all regular credit reservations, so I do not know how this relates to cancel-rebook.  You are first in line to get what you want.  Just because you can do with regular points what a Plat VIP can do with cancel-rebook, does not make cancel-rebook any more acceptable.  Here is why how the points are obtained is important, and how it might affect even you.

You show up first in line with your bucket of points and want to make 4 300k reservations at a resort that has only 4 300k units.  A Plat VIP cancelled and rebooked  1.2 million points the day before and now has 600k points that he wants to use to book 2 300k rooms at the exact same resort, and he is just as skilled as you at being first in line.  Let’s call it a tie.  You both get two 300k units.  Sure you can take the other 600k elsewhere, but you did not get the 4 rooms you wanted.  Had the Plat VIP had to keep his 1.2 million locked-up due to a waitlist, he would have been out of ammo, and you would have had at least a chance at getting all 4 300k rooms.


----------



## lcml11

CO skier said:


> Sure you can do as well as a Plat VIP using regular points (if you have enough).  These are all regular credit reservations, so I do not know how this relates to cancel-rebook.  You are first in line to get what you want.  Just because you can do with regular points what a Plat VIP can do with cancel-rebook, does not make cancel-rebook any more acceptable.  Here is why how the points are obtained is important, and how it might affect even you.
> 
> You show up first in line with your bucket of points and want to make 4 300k reservations at a resort that has only 4 300k units.  A Plat VIP cancelled and rebooked  1.2 million points the day before and now has 600k points that he wants to use to book 2 300k rooms at the exact same resort, and he is just as skilled as you at being first in line.  Let’s call it a tie.  You both get two 300k units.  Sure you can take the other 600k elsewhere, but you did not get the 4 rooms you wanted.  Had the Plat VIP had to keep his 1.2 million locked-up due to a waitlist, he would have been out of ammo, and you would have had at least a chance at getting all 4 300k rooms.



Cry all the way to the bank for the loser who then goes to Myrtle Beach or HI or worst case, the Winter resorts and laugh all the way to the bank again.


----------



## pacodemountainside

lcml11 said:


> If that is the intent of a large point holder, it could absolutly be done.  A wait list would be a great addition to this line of thinking if there were enough points to support this plan.  I believe, a couple of different posters on other threads have indicated this is a very effective tactic.
> 
> A million point Platinum VIP owner could pool their future year points into the credit pool for the book, cancel, re-book trick.  That would give a pool of 3 milion points available to support this project.  Then, if successful, the excess points can be moved forward by the proper use of the multiple use year  dates to move them forward into the next use year.  This could go on year in and year out.



I gather you are against  creative thinking,  entrepreneurship, doing ones homework to  maximize utilization  and benefits of    something they own.
The rules are there  for all to read. Anyone wanting to give Wyndham  around $170K  can   become a Platinum VIP and get extra perks.  Really no different than   companies  entertain best customers at sporting events, etc.  But when one chooses to give Wyndham  say $170K vs buying on Internet  for a few thousand  they are like  person  waiting all night to  get latest Apple gadget at  crack of dawn.

In effect  they are giving Wyndham  lots of money up front in return for PROMISE  of thousand of dollars in perks down the road. Assuming these perks are  worth say  $3K a year. There is no way in Hell  VIP makes any sense.

Take a simple example:

Martin   mega renter  books   five(5) red hot weeks for 200K  points eack. Around day 57 at  1:00 PM he cancels and re-books. So he  still has  5 units to rent, no change in  reservations.   However,  VOI Trust is  short 500K points so Franz has to take 500K points he has paid MF on  and was going to rent for a ton of money and give to VOI Trust who then makes available to all 500K of us members first come, first gets.

However, Franz is not unhappy, he got around $170K up front which he has invested so  no skin off his butt.


----------



## lcml11

pacodemountainside said:


> I gather you are against  creative thinking,  entrepreneurship, doing ones homework to  maximize utilization  and benefits of    something they own.
> The rules are there  for all to read. Anyone wanting to give Wyndham  around $170K  can   become a Platinum VIP and get extra perks.  Really no different than   companies  entertain best customers at sporting events, etc.  But when one chooses to give Wyndham  say $170K vs buying on Internet  for a few thousand  they are like  person  waiting all night to  get latest Apple gadget at  crack of dawn.
> 
> In effect  they are giving Wyndham  lots of money up front in return for PROMISE  of thousand of dollars in perks down the road. Assuming these perks are  worth say  $3K a year. There is no way in Hell  VIP makes any sense.
> 
> Take a simple example:
> 
> Martin   mega renter  books   five(5) red hot weeks for 200K  points eack. Around day 57 at  1:00 PM he cancels and re-books. So he  still has  5 units to rent, no change in  reservations.   However,  VOI Trust is  short 500K points so Franz has to take 500K points he has paid MF on  and was going to rent for a ton of money and give to VOI Trust who then makes available to all 500K of us members first come, first gets.
> 
> However, Franz is not unhappy, he got around $170K up front which he has invested so  no skin off his butt.



I am not advocating developer purchase to rent, I will leave that to the Wyndham sales force.  There are plenty of potientially greedy VIP Platinum members that this could work for and I absolutly do not recommend they partake unless they have a lot of guts and a substantial reserve of money to wether out year ebbs and flow of cash flow and the "borrowed money" becomes due.  Deep pockets are needed.

Sounds like "Martin", the mega-rentor and "Frantz" in your hypothetical have worked out a legal racket.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Sure you can do as well as a Plat VIP using regular points (if you have enough).  These are all regular credit reservations, so I do not know how this relates to cancel-rebook.  You are first in line to get what you want.  Just because you can do with regular points what a Plat VIP can do with cancel-rebook, does not make cancel-rebook any more acceptable.  Here is why how the points are obtained is important, and how it might affect even you.
> 
> You show up first in line with your bucket of points and want to make 4 300k reservations at a resort that has only 4 300k units.  A Plat VIP cancelled and rebooked  1.2 million points the day before and now has 600k points that he wants to use to book 2 300k rooms at the exact same resort, and he is just as skilled as you at being first in line.  Let’s call it a tie.  You both get two 300k units.  Sure you can take the other 600k elsewhere, but you did not get the 4 rooms you wanted.  Had the Plat VIP had to keep his 1.2 million locked-up due to a waitlist, he would have been out of ammo, and you would have had at least a chance at getting all 4 300k rooms.



You are assuming that its only me and the VIP competing..There will be others. i would contend that it doesnt matter where the points come from. The points are out there and will find a home

The advantage goes to the guy with the most points, just like at Worldmark..


----------



## lcml11

ronparise said:


> You are assuming that its only me and the VIP competing..There will be others. i would contend that it doesnt matter where the points come from. The points are out there and will find a home
> 
> The advantage goes to the guy with the most points, just like at Worldmark..



And, ARP rights.


----------



## chapjim

ronparise said:


> So Jim...where will you be for New Years Eve?  and will you have the nerve to cancel and re book at La Belle Maison for Super Bowl or Mardi Gras?



Actually, I'm not sure where I'll be.  The La Belle Maison reservation is already rented as is the one at Bonnet Creek.  Was at LBM for New Year's Eve this last winter.  I prefer New Orleans a little off-peak.  Much as I'd like to see Mardi Gras, I don't want to be in New Orleans while it's going in.

Easy answer to Super Bowl and Mardi Gras -- I have nothing for either one.  Nothing available at the 10 month point.

My vacation aspirations took a hit the first of 2012.  I left General Dynamics after their USG contract expired.  Along with it went a healthy leave balance (that I sold back for almost $12,000) and a generous rate of leave accrual based on seventeen years of seniority.  The government awarded to a small business and I started with a leave balance of zero and a much-reduced accrual rate.

Bummer!  I liked the "work for a couple of months, take a week off" routine.  Now, to take a week off, I have to sweep up what hours I have and take Leave Without Pay for the rest.


----------



## chapjim

CO skier said:


> No, the point is, "Why should anyone get a 50% discount, and free-up developer points, on reservations that are so in-demand, that with a waitlist in effect, they would always be booked using full points from owners?"



Maybe because I paid more money?


----------



## lcml11

chapjim said:


> Maybe because I paid more money?



Or maybe because VIP privledges are sold as part of the developer purchase?  I think there are laws pertaining to misrepresentations, etc.  You could check with Wyndham, but I think they have been sued over related issues.


----------



## am1

Where are the retail and VIP haters?

Not everything is fair.  But everyone can become platinum and use their account how they want.


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## lcml11

am1 said:


> Where are the retail and VIP haters?
> 
> Not everything is fair.  But everyone can become platinum and use their account how they want.



Maybe they listened to reason and now have come to believe there is a role and place in the world for VIP owners".  If nothing else, it gives them plenty of non-peak period availablity while the peak periods remain out of reach for the better resorts because of the huge number of points needed, even VIP discount points.


----------



## ronparise

am1 said:


> Where are the retail and VIP haters?
> 
> Not everything is fair.  But everyone can become platinum and use their account how they want.



I dont think anyone ever said they hate retail or VIP. (the sales force and the techniques they use is another matter.)  Retail points are the same as my resale points and the VIP benefits are real. And the folks Ive met that have purchased retail at every level have been nice people. (they can turn mean however when they learn what they paid $30,000 for, I paid $500) I dont hate them. Pity is not the right word either, its more like envy...I wish I had that kind of money to throw away

The point is. VIP benefits are real. How I got to silver is not important,  I wish I was Gold or Platinum,  but knowing what I know now I wont pay full retail for the upgrade.  50% discounts even without the tricks would be great, and unlimited housekeeping and transaction fees and more guest certificates welcome. Its just that these benefits cost way too much, and they can be duplicated by buying more resale.

Having said that there are ways to get to VIP levels much cheaper than buying all your points from a Wyndham salesman at full price, There is an ad on Redweek now (at least I think its still available) where a guy is willing to work with his buyer to transfer a Platinum ownership. And there are ways to get to VIP with a Wyndham saleman with a small retail purchase, rather than a large one.  PIC and assumable loans for example.. The question is ROI..if you can use what you buy and get a return on investment that works for you ...go for it. Nobody will hate you for doing it.


----------



## debrinkleyusa

*Lost 4 reservations for Easter break*

Just wanted to update the original thread and tell everyone I lost 4 different reservations I tried to cancel and rebook to get a discount.  I am convinced that there has been a program change that grabs up every new availability for the highest demand weeks at Bonnet Creek.  I would very much like to know if anyone was able to get a discount reservation at Bonnet Creek for the week before Easter or is it just EH that is grabbing all of these.  I spread my cancellations over several days and different hours.

Doug B.


----------



## bogey21

debrinkleyusa said:


> Just wanted to update the original thread and tell everyone I lost 4 different reservations I tried to cancel and rebook to get a discount.  I am convinced that there has been a program change that grabs up every new availability for the highest demand weeks at Bonnet Creek.



Nailed 4 times!!  Doesn't sound like just bad luck.

George


----------



## pacodemountainside

I think after losing  two at random times I would have called it quits.

Tends to confirm rumor that EH  has  on going reservation priority.

Shoot if WWW RCI  subsidiary can  skim inventory  to rent , why not its EH.

While I am retired and can spend hours looking  for cancellations, just can't believe  someone could  steal in   very limited say 30 second window!


----------



## Sandi Bo

How frustrating (Doug).  I didn't have any Easter week reservations thus haven't cancelled / rebooked any.

In general, I have definitely noticed the website is working differently.  I suspect they have altered the behavior of how a canceled reservation comes back into the system.  I've seen really weird things.  (Now is that on purpose or bad coding, who knows)?

Did you ever see the reservation come back in the system?  At another resort(not Bonnet Creek) I grabbed a room I was going to upgrade to so I had it on a 15 minute hold, timed it to the second to pick up the upgrade, saw it in the upgrade window, but got a message that the room was no longer available.  I've seen things go super quickly at this resort before (it's my sisters favorite so I often watch for last minute cancellations for her). I do think that someone is REALLY fast and just sits on that location (even more than me). EH isn't taking them off the table or I wouldn't have been able to book the 1 bedroom I originally booked.

There are situations where they can keep rooms from coming back into inventory. If there has been a glitch so that they have oversold, or if there is a maintenance issue (ex: water main break) they can "recover" rooms when you cancel.   In that situation you won't see them come back into the system.

Bummer on losing your reservations.


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## sunshinevalues

WeLovetoTravel said:


> I just wanted to let everyone know that I just lost my Bonnett Creek Christmas reservation when I tried to cancel and rebook for the discounted points. This is the first time that I've gotten burned using the cancel and rebook trick. I am really bummed, but at least we have a back up plan. I just wanted to caution others to be careful, especially with holiday bookings. I don't know if something changed with the way Wyndham posts the inventory, or if someone else was looking at the exact same second I cancelled. When I tried to rebook the reservation, the unit was there, then when I clicked to confirm I got the message that the unit ws no longer available.


This happened to us with RCI a few years ago near Houston, Texas, timeshare under renovations from a hurricane - but RCI provided an alternative timeshare that worked....


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## jjmanthei05

debrinkleyusa said:


> Just wanted to update the original thread and tell everyone I lost 4 different reservations I tried to cancel and rebook to get a discount.  I am convinced that there has been a program change that grabs up every new availability for the highest demand weeks at Bonnet Creek.  I would very much like to know if anyone was able to get a discount reservation at Bonnet Creek for the week before Easter or is it just EH that is grabbing all of these.  I spread my cancellations over several days and different hours.
> 
> Doug B.


I got a 1 bedroom for 3 nights that was canceled and rebooked at Bonnet Creek for March 15th. 

I have a total of 7 reservations (backups/upgrades are included in there) for March that I will be upgrading when it hits my Upgrade window. I will let you know how it goes. 

One question Doug. Did you see it come back into the system and miss it or did you never see it show back up?

I also am not sure it was extra holidays. The only thing they have for the 23rd to the 30th is a 1 bedroom. 

Jason


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## jjmanthei05

pacodemountainside said:


> While I am retired and can spend hours looking  for cancellations, just can't believe  someone could  steal in   very limited say 30 second window!



I have lost rooms to someone else within 3 seconds of it showing back up in the system. I know it wasn't EH because they don't rent at the resort I was canceling\rebooking. 

Jason


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## Sandy VDH

debrinkleyusa said:


> Just wanted to update the original thread and tell everyone I lost 4 different reservations I tried to cancel and rebook to get a discount.  I am convinced that there has been a program change that grabs up every new availability for the highest demand weeks at Bonnet Creek.  I would very much like to know if anyone was able to get a discount reservation at Bonnet Creek for the week before Easter or is it just EH that is grabbing all of these.  I spread my cancellations over several days and different hours.
> 
> Doug B.



I didn't lose my reservations, because I don't have the guts or greed to try to cancel and rebook when there is NO inventory.  So instead I would rather booked additional reservations.  So I found the inventory and during the booking accidently I hit the wrong button on my phone and lost the last of 3 reservations I was trying to link together.  This was for Bonnet Creek and this was at the 45 -44 day mark.  I grabed my original inventory at the 60 day mark as I am a VIP Plat member.

My guess is that Gold VIP member(s) where indeed cancelling there big full point units to grab a smaller unit at a discount and then rebook that big unit as an free upgrade.  I suspect this had to be what happened as suddenly there were 3 BR Presidential available that were not available 15 days prior.   

So it could have been another member or it could have been EH.  No one will know for sure.

Perhaps we are actually poaching reservations from each other.  What date did you lose a BC ressie for.  It was't me for easter as I was booking February dates.


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## debrinkleyusa

*Lost 4 reservations for Easter break*



jjmanthei05 said:


> I got a 1 bedroom for 3 nights that was canceled and rebooked at Bonnet Creek for March 15th.
> 
> I have a total of 7 reservations (backups/upgrades are included in there) for March that I will be upgrading when it hits my Upgrade window. I will let you know how it goes.
> 
> One question Doug. Did you see it come back into the system and miss it or did you never see it show back up?
> 
> I also am not sure it was extra holidays. The only thing they have for the 23rd to the 30th is a 1 bedroom.
> 
> Jason



Jason,
  I hope you are right about it not being EH and this was a case where 4 other owners simply got a great deal and were extremely lucky.  My dates were March 24 to 31.  I'll be anxious to hear if you do better.  My rebookings are about as fast as humanly possible and losing 4 spread out on different days and hours makes me very suspicious that there is computer working to capture these automatically.
  Good luck with your bookings.  

Doug


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## bnoble

Could be.  That's one of the busiest weeks of the year outside of Christmas for Disney vacations, so there may well be a LOT of owners periodically looking for something to come up there.


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## am1

It is Wyndham taking them.  I said this back in October for Christmas reservations as well.


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## jjmanthei05

debrinkleyusa said:


> Jason,
> I hope you are right about it not being EH and this was a case where 4 other owners simply got a great deal and were extremely lucky.  My dates were March 24 to 31.  I'll be anxious to hear if you do better.  My rebookings are about as fast as humanly possible and losing 4 spread out on different days and hours makes me very suspicious that there is computer working to capture these automatically.
> Good luck with your bookings.
> 
> Doug



I am a little more hopeful for my reservations because I have seen some pop back up for a few seconds before disappearing just inside the 60 day mark but we are going the week before (which is our kids spring break) so maybe there is a difference. Again the only reason I would think it wasn't EH was because I don't see any inventory available for those dates and since a 2 bedroom for the dates we are going is close to $2,500 through EH I doubt it was something someone booked within minutes. That's for the luck, I will let you know how it goes. 

Jason


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## debrinkleyusa

am1 said:


> It is Wyndham taking them.  I said this back in October for Christmas reservations as well.



am1,
  I suspect you are right because of my experience losing so many reservations at once.  If it is Wyndham taking these, do you think it is restricted to just a few weeks per year or are they aggresively taking away inventory during all the popular weeks at Bonnet Creek?  Fortunately I have not seen this at other resorts but then I only make reservations at a few.

Doug


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## capital city

Someone else already mentioned this but couldn't just be a overbooking issue? All hotels and probably timeshares do it and probably more so for Easter, Christmas, etc. They know there are going to be cancellations so they overbook 5-10% and as cancellations happen  they just dont put them back out there. I know there was a big discussion already about this being greedy or the right of VIP but I dont see how trying this with some of the best weeks within the Wyndham system can be seen as anything else then being greedy. 

Not trying to call names, I know it sucks when a plan doesn't work out and not trying to add to it.


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## antjmar

Something has definitely changed! I saw one additional night in the same category as my existing 2 night reservation. I booked it then I immediately cancelled both trying to get 3 nights on 1 reservation  just so I wouldn’t have to worry about changing  rooms and they were all gone in seconds!   I have done this a few times in the past just to avoid room changes and I never lost the reservation before.


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## lcml11

antjmar said:


> Something has definitely changed! I saw one additional night in the same category as my existing 2 night reservation. I booked it then I immediately cancelled both trying to get 3 nights on 1 reservation  just so I wouldn’t have to worry about changing  rooms and they were all gone in seconds!   I have done this a few times in the past just to avoid room changes and I never lost the reservation before.



Leave the Wyndham site, come back in and try again in 15 minutes.  You might get a pleasant surprise.  For what ever it is worth, if the split reservations or back to back reservations are of the same room type, I have not had a problem with changing rooms.  They have given me the same room for both, sometimes you need to ask to have it done because they have not spotted the back to back reservations.  I always ask to make sure.


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## jjmanthei05

Update -

I canceled and rebooked 5 rooms between march 15 & 17th at BC today. I didn't lose a single reservation I wanted to keep. Not sure if EH wasn't looking for my weeks because they aren't normal school spring break weeks but I did cancel and rebook 2 - 4 bed presidential units and 3 - 3 bedroom units so they were "valuable" units. 

Jason


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## antjmar

lcml11 said:


> Leave the Wyndham site, come back in and try again in 15 minutes.  You might get a pleasant surprise.  For what ever it is worth, if the split reservations or back to back reservations are of the same room type, I have not had a problem with changing rooms.  They have given me the same room for both, sometimes you need to ask to have it done because they have not spotted the back to back reservations.  I always ask to make sure.



UPDATE
Thank you! I was able to rebook later that day.  It was for a president weekend ski trip (smuggs). Not sure who grabbed it but they must have cancelled or changed their mind!


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## jjmanthei05

antjmar said:


> UPDATE
> Thank you! I was able to rebook later that day.  It was for a president weekend ski trip (smuggs). Not sure who grabbed it but they must have cancelled or changed their mind!



Congrats on getting the room back.


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## lcml11

antjmar said:


> UPDATE
> Thank you! I was able to rebook later that day.  It was for a president weekend ski trip (smuggs). Not sure who grabbed it but they must have cancelled or changed their mind!



Or, as at least one has speculated, there is a built in delay of some sort under some conditions.  For what ever reason, it does not hurt to try a couple of other times different ways.  I am not sure it is intentional, but the system may have different paths to availability pools.  At least one sales office is indicating that different availability pools are here and more coming as the old Club Wyndam Plus system gets segmitized.

I can forsee a time when the UDI system goes the way of the weeks and FAX programs.


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## scootr5

lcml11 said:


> At least one sales office is indicating that different availability pools are here and more coming as the old Club Wyndam Plus system gets segmitized.



Really? You're going to take the word of one of the sales guys regarding availability pools and future plans?


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## lcml11

scootr5 said:


> Really? You're going to take the word of one of the sales guys regarding availability pools and future plans?



Not particularily, however, I have had occassion relatively recently to notice difference between what a reservations person tells me and what the computer said.  

Normally, but not always, the Reservations person sees less.

Also, I have noticed that availabilty will change sometimes on on-line availability.  There is a certain pattern that I am watching to see how to consistantly get into the better availability screens.


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## vacationhopeful

lcml11 said:


> .......  At least one sales office is indicating that different availability pools are here and more coming as the old Club Wyndam Plus system gets segmitized.
> 
> I can forsee a time when the UDI system goes the way of the weeks and FAX programs.



Robert,
All I have to ask, when did the FIXED WEEK system at Wyndham go away?

I still have more than 5 Fixed Weeks - in multiple Wyndham resort.


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## ronparise

vacationhopeful said:


> Robert,
> All I have to ask, when did the FIXED WEEK system at Wyndham go away?
> 
> I still have more than 5 Fixed Weeks - in multiple Wyndham resort.



Linda is right.  (as usual) fixed weeks haven't gone away

 Wyndham's unconverted weeks owners may be the red-headded step children of the Wyndham System....but we are alive and wellI 

I have 12 and 6 more under under contract or in transfer


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## lcml11

ronparise said:


> Linda is right.  (as usual) fixed weeks haven't gone away
> 
> Wyndham's unconverted weeks owners may be the red-headded step children of the Wyndham System....but we are alive and wellI
> 
> I have 12 and 6 more under under contract or in transfer



I did not say fixed weeks went away.  I said go the way of, there is a world of difference.  They lost priority in the Wyndham system.  I also own two converted fixed weeks.  I was never part of the FAX system, however, I believe it is still technically in the system.  At least it still has a number on the automated system.  It does not appear to have any priority or significant attention either.


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## vacationhopeful

Did someone just loose a Royal Vista 2/2 week with a checkin for Feb 16?

THANK YOU --- it found a great home!


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## bnoble

> They lost priority in the Wyndham system.


Nonsense.  A fixed week is a fixed week is a fixed week.  You own the week; you get the week.  That's the priority they've always had.

What no longer exists is Wyndham's standalone fixed week exchange.  Its demise is immaterial.  If you own something of value, you can still exchange it extremely effectively via the affiliated major (RCI, II, or in some cases both), and can always make use of the independents---many at low cost.  

Your broader point---the segmenting of existing inventory---is meaningful only to ARP rights.  In the standard window, none of it matters.  However, in the vast majority of practical cases, ARP is not particularly critical.  There are a few well-known exceptions (the low point-cost Myrtle and Destin resorts in summer, Rhode Island summer, etc.) but some of those are exceptions in part because many of the owners of bright red fixed weeks at those resorts quite rightly never converted, so it doesn't matter which ARP group you belong to.

At the end of the day, you continue to take half-truths that the sales staff tells you, combine it with other unrelated facts, and conclude that 2+2 is pi.  I'm not sure whether that's because you really want to believe these things, you are just trolling us all, or you just don't understand how any of this works.  And I suppose I should not care.  Even so, I'm curious.

About the only thing that is even close to what you are hinting at is the expansion of Presidential Reserve, or the creation of something beyond it created to get PR owners to upgrade once again.  But, that is *new* inventory, not *existing* inventory, so it is not fragmentation, it is simply a separate system that has limited exchange rights with the existing one.


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## jjmanthei05

vacationhopeful said:


> Did someone just loose a Royal Vista 2/2 week with a checkin for Feb 16?
> 
> THANK YOU --- it found a great home!



Being the 16th, that was more likely an actual cancellation vs someone trying to cancel/rebook. Otherwise one of the best comments I have ever seen!!!! Way to just stick it to someone who is freaking out because they lost their reservation! :hysterical:

Jason


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## lcml11

bnoble said:


> Nonsense.  A fixed week is a fixed week is a fixed week.  You own the week; you get the week.  That's the priority they've always had.
> 
> What no longer exists is Wyndham's standalone fixed week exchange.  Its demise is immaterial.  If you own something of value, you can still exchange it extremely effectively via the affiliated major (RCI, II, or in some cases both), and can always make use of the independents---many at low cost.
> 
> Your broader point---the segmenting of existing inventory---is meaningful only to ARP rights.  In the standard window, none of it matters.  However, in the vast majority of practical cases, ARP is not particularly critical.  There are a few well-known exceptions (the low point-cost Myrtle and Destin resorts in summer, Rhode Island summer, etc.) but some of those are exceptions in part because many of the owners of bright red fixed weeks at those resorts quite rightly never converted, so it doesn't matter which ARP group you belong to.
> 
> At the end of the day, you continue to take half-truths that the sales staff tells you, combine it with other unrelated facts, and conclude that 2+2 is pi.  I'm not sure whether that's because you really want to believe these things, you are just trolling us all, or you just don't understand how any of this works.  And I suppose I should not care.  Even so, I'm curious.
> 
> About the only thing that is even close to what you are hinting at is the expansion of Presidential Reserve, or the creation of something beyond it created to get PR owners to upgrade once again.  But, that is *new* inventory, not *existing* inventory, so it is not fragmentation, it is simply a separate system that has limited exchange rights with the existing one.



No, I am not a troll.  Segmentation of inventories is not particular new within the Wyndham system and has been discussed in other threads.  Also, "In the standard window, none of it matters"  is just another version of a Wyndham Point is a Wyndham point.  This to has been discussed in a number of other threads.  If certain postions are not held, I guess one has to have a thick skin to participate in this forum.


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## vacationhopeful

vacationhopeful said:


> Did someone just loose a Royal Vista 2/2 week with a checkin for Feb 16?
> 
> THANK YOU --- it found a great home!



Jason,
I do have a heart. 

If you or someone you know lost this reservation, I have a STUDIO at Wyndham Santa Barbara across the street. Being homeless on a holiday week, is no fun.


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## ronparise

lcml11 said:


> No, I am not a troll.  Segmentation of inventories is not particular new within the Wyndham system and has been discussed in other threads.  Also, "In the standard window, none of it matters"  is just another version of a Wyndham Point is a Wyndham point.  This to has been discussed in a number of other threads.  If certain postions are not held, I guess one has to have a thick skin to participate in this forum.



_"In the standard window, none of it matters"  is just another version of a Wyndham Point is a Wyndham point.  This to has been discussed in a number of other threads.  If certain postions are not held, I guess one has to have a thick skin to participate in this forum._

and the guys that held the "flat earth" position I guess had to have thick skin too. 

Robert...You are free to have a different opinion, but facts are facts...You cant just make them up...If you would base your positions on the facts, rather than the lies and half truths spouted by the sales staff. (and then adding your own non sequiturs) You would find an audience here, much more willing to entertain your point of view


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## antjmar

lcml11 said:


> Or, as at least one has speculated, there is a built in delay of some sort under some conditions.  For what ever reason, it does not hurt to try a couple of other times different ways.



It does appear some sort of delay may have been added. My limited experience with cancel and rebook has been  that they have always come back instantly. This last time it wasnt there.
It is a prime week so it may have been someone else grabbed and it and later changed their mind.  But based on the experiences of others here I have a feeling a "delay" after a cancellation might be  coming in the future.


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## lcml11

antjmar said:


> It does appear some sort of delay may have been added. My limited experience with cancel and rebook has been  that they have always come back instantly. This last time it wasnt there.
> It is a prime week so it may have been someone else grabbed and it and later changed their mind.  But based on the experiences of others here I have a feeling a "delay" after a cancellation might be  coming in the future.



Again, congratulations on getting the reservation back.  I think people will do well saving their cancel rebook reservation under that procedure even if a delay has been added.  Just try a few more times a few different ways.


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## jjmanthei05

antjmar said:


> It does appear some sort of delay may have been added. My limited experience with cancel and rebook has been  that they have always come back instantly. This last time it wasnt there.
> It is a prime week so it may have been someone else grabbed and it and later changed their mind.  But based on the experiences of others here I have a feeling a "delay" after a cancellation might be  coming in the future.



Right now the delay is 16 seconds as long as their system isn't lagging. I have had some not come back up for about a min and a half but the system was also lagging at the time. 

Jason


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## wed100105

I lost one last night. It was for a friend and now I am renting a unit (thank goodness I found one) from someone on redweek.com and am losing $100 and sleep over it. I have never lost one before.  it was a two bedroom, checking in March 31 for 7 nights at Bonnet Creek.


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## jebloomquist

wed100105 said:


> I lost one last night. It was for a friend and now I am renting a unit (thank goodness I found one) from someone on redweek.com and am losing $100 and sleep over it. I have never lost one before.  it was a two bedroom, checking in March 31 for 7 nights at Bonnet Creek.



I have experience the following at Bonnet Creek. It may happen elsewhere as well.

In the evening I have cancelled a reservation, and it does not reappear that evening. However, it or something similar appears online when Wyndham opens the next morning.

So, if you lose a reservation, be an early bird, and look for it the following morning. It just might reappear.

Jim


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## paxsarah

I would guess Easter week at BC is one of the easiest to lose, though.


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## Sandy VDH

wed100105 said:


> I lost one last night. It was for a friend and now I am renting a unit (thank goodness I found one) from someone on redweek.com and am losing $100 and sleep over it. I have never lost one before.  it was a two bedroom, checking in March 31 for 7 nights at Bonnet Creek.



Personally, for a holiday week, I would not risk it.  But keep checking back, especially at the 45 day mark and 30 day mark again.


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## wed100105

I ended up booking the same size and dates from a guy on redweek. I lost $115 (he is charging $100 more than I was asking and I had to renew my redweek account for $15) and now I am going to worry for the next 60 days. I have never had this happen. I am just darn lucky that I found one to rent for them and that I am not losing more than the $115 that I am out, (I will not charge my friends more for my loss.) I just am going to have to start charging more and not count on a discount. I am hoping to rent out a week this summer to other friends to use up the points. 

I talked to a guy who does a lot of bonnet Creek rentals today. (I had called to check if he had anything he could rent me.) He told me that his experience is that at 59 days out a lot of the units don't make it into the system once cancelled; they go to Extra Holidays immediately. He lost a couple that way too. 

I blew it with this unit. It won't be something I would risk again for someone else's vacation. I was near panic lat night. I did check at 7:00 on the dot and no units were in there. I checked for a solid two hours continuously last night.


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## Scotty J

Has anyone been losing cancel/rebook reservations when using the call center to do it?
Scott


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## Don40

wed100105 said:


> I ended up booking the same size and dates from a guy on redweek. I lost $115 (he is charging $100 more than I was asking and I had to renew my redweek account for $15) and now I am going to worry for the next 60 days. I have never had this happen. I am just darn lucky that I found one to rent for them and that I am not losing more than the $115 that I am out, (I will not charge my friends more for my loss.)



I lost a BC unit over the New Year trying to get the points discount but, with about 20 days out numerous units become available.  It seemed like the units that were not rented popped up and I even got a upgrade to a 3br.  Since your reservation was for someone else you did not have the luxury to wait last minute. I bet if you start looking at 20 days out to 16 days out you will see units pop up. 
Don


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## wed100105

Don40 said:


> I lost a BC unit over the New Year trying to get the points discount but, with about 20 days out numerous units become available.  It seemed like the units that were not rented popped up and I even got a upgrade to a 3br.  Since your reservation was for someone else you did not have the luxury to wait last minute. I bet if you start looking at 20 days out to 16 days out you will see units pop up.
> Don


Yes, if it was for us, I would wing it with a back up, but since this is for. Friend who already has tickets, etc., I couldn't. It was a foolish mistake to do it and I will now be very cautious!


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## jjmanthei05

wed100105 said:


> Yes, if it was for us, I would wing it with a back up, but since this is for. Friend who already has tickets, etc., I couldn't. It was a foolish mistake to do it and I will now be very cautious!



When I do this for ourselves or someone else, I always book a backup room in case I lose one. If you have extra points (and early in the year) you may want to book 2 rooms of the size they are wanting. That way if you lose the first one, you don't take the chance on the 2nd one.  

Jason


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## ddavid1073

*Probably a dumb question*

Could someone explain the strategy to me?  I understand that there is a discount at some point (is it 60, 45 or 30 days) prior to the reservation.  I have a week booked at Royal Sea Cliffs in Hawaii in October.  If it comes down to the discount window and there are still rooms available is the strategy that I can and rebook and then have some extra points to use on a short weekend stay?  I understand the strategy failed for the poster but they were counting on canceling and rebooking their same condo.  If there are still condo's available is it then "safe" to use this strategy.  Thanks so much for any incite you can give me.  This board is an invaluable find for me.  I'm fairly new to timesharing but bought my three timeshares on Ebay for under $1000 including closing and transfer costs.


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## vacationhopeful

ddavid1073 said:


> Could someone explain the strategy to me?  I understand that there is a discount at some point (is it 60, 45 or 30 days) prior to the reservation.  ...........   I'm fairly new to timesharing but bought my three timeshares on Ebay for under $1000 including closing and transfer costs.



ddavid -- there is NO DISCOUNT window unless YOU are a VIP owner or your resort and timeframe are in the RESORT SPECIALS section of the online reservation system.


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## antjmar

ddavid1073 said:


> Could someone explain the strategy to me?  I understand that there is a discount at some point (is it 60, 45 or 30 days) prior to the reservation.  I have a week booked at Royal Sea Cliffs in Hawaii in October.  If it comes down to the discount window and there are still rooms available is the strategy that I can and rebook and then have some extra points to use on a short weekend stay?  I understand the strategy failed for the poster but they were counting on canceling and rebooking their same condo.  If there are still condo's available is it then "safe" to use this strategy.  Thanks so much for any incite you can give me.  This board is an invaluable find for me.  I'm fairly new to timesharing but bought my three timeshares on Ebay for under $1000 including closing and transfer costs.


This strategy for the discounts is for VIP's since you bought resale you wouldn't qualify. Sometimes you will see discounts for everyone if you do then you can cancel and rebook to get discount.


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## ddavid1073

Thanks for much for your reply (and yours too Vacationhopeful).  To get to VIP Wyndham Sales Reps offered me contracts in the 12 to 15K range.  Based on most of the posts I see I think I'll stick with my resale contracts especially when I see what the resale value is!


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