# Just bought Worldmark Points on eBay - What about the ownership transfer?



## Swedegeek

First, thanks for all the great advice I've gotten on TUG.  Its really appreciated.

But now I need to ask for a little more advice.  I just bought Worldmark points on eBay - the price was good, and I'd like the closing to go smoothly.

The ad specified that the closing would be done by The Timeshare Company.  Sale costs were to be the sale price, $541 for the 1st year's mf, $435 for transfer, and $150 for the Worldmark transfer fee.  

I'd appreciate any advice anyone has about the process of transferring ownership.  I didn't find an introduction to the mechanics of the process elsewhere on TUG, similar to those I've found on other topics.  Can anyone refer me to one?  Or give some general advice?

I also have a few specific questions:

1.  I understand I should get a copy of the documents to confirm with Worldmark the details of what's being transferred, that its owned free & clear, that all mfs are paid up, etc.  When should this happen, and how long is reasonable for Worldmark to confirm this?  Shouldn't this happen before I send any money?  

I happen to live near the Worldmark headquarters - I'd probably drop by their offices in person.  Might not get it done immediately, but person to person contact never hurts.

2.  As I understand it, mfs are payable to Worldmark in quarterly installments.  So why would I give the closing company the full year's mf up front?  Does Worldmark require the first years mf up front?  If the closing company plans to pay this to Worldmark in quarterly installments, it amounts to an unsecured zero interest loan. Doesn't seem like a reasonable approach.

3.  The info they sent says the payment options are Paypal, Visa/MC, or a personal check.  Obviously, the check has to clear before the transfer happens.  Or they'll offer a zero interest 2-3 month loan - again, no transfer until full payment.  

Is there any reason not to use my VISA card?

Of course they want me to just send the money first thing...  

4.  Does the transfer company typically act as a real estate escrow agent or trust company, i.e. independent of seller & buyer, funds in a trust account while in their possession, etc., etc.?  Or are they essentially the seller's business agent, offering no security for the buyer?

5.  Worldmark is a points system - is title insurance available for such a system?  Is it wise?  (For that matter, with a points system do you own title to anything?  or are you buying a contract to use facilities?  Any legal types around that could answer that?  If you don't own title to anything, then title insurance is a moot point.)

6.  I've seen references to estoppel on TUG.  What's this, as it applies to timeshares?  

7.  What don't I know enough to ask about?


Thanks for all the help!


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## djpotts50

*How To Buy/sell A Worldmark Membership*

I have purchased 3 WorldMark contracts and have combined all three of them into one 50,000 point membership so I speak from some experience.

"If you do the paperwork yourselves, there are no closing costs. If you
want to do an escrow, timesharetitle.com will do it for you for about $100, since there is no title.

Below are the steps:

1. Seller calls Worldmark Transfer Services at 800-537-6497 and start
the process, which freezes the account and Seller pays WM $150 and any
past due fees (with credit card is faster)

2. WM fax Seller forms, if Seller has a fax machine. Snail Mail, if not.
There are two types of forms, one for if a current owner purchasing and
one for non-owners, depending which you are.

3. Seller complete the Seller form and Buyer authorization form, which
give buyer ability to verify the account, and fax back to WM. Apparently only resellers have to do this step, since all of mine were authorized with a phone call from the Seller.

4. Then buyer can call and verify that the account matches their
agreement.

5. Seller then sends the Buyer their portions including notary
information.

6. The buyer then notarizes their portions and sends them back to the
seller.

7. The seller then makes sure all the documents are correct and then
they mail them all together to Worldmark (I typically mailed back, as the buyer.) They have to be mailed not faxed because of the notary
information.

8. WM says they take 5-6 weeks, but I had one take 3 days and a most of the others took about 2 weeks.

How you handle the money, is the trust part. Many people here feel that once you have the notarized documents in hand, plus you verified the contract, outstanding loan amount, past due fees, etc., you are pretty safe in turning over the money. I have paid resellers upfront, paid after everything closed, but mostly paid once WM received the documents." I recommend making the purchase with PayPal and a credit card; that way the buyer has the protections afforded by both PayPal and your credit card company.

Sergeant Major


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## yumdrey

I purchased my 20000 credits from a worldmark specialized broker, and there was no closing cost for buyers. I just paid $150 transfer fee.
When I saw e-bay WM ads, those pcc charge $400 - $500 closing cost in addition to trasnfer fee ($150), and it is another way of making money for them.
Here's what I went through for WM transfer :
1) seller sent me an estoppel letter which states account status, MF dues, how many credits left, etc...
2) seller called WM and allowed them to release ownership infomation to me (buyer) - I called WM and verified all info myself (no money was sent until this step)
3) I sent payment - broker had a third party escrow account (no extra cost for buyers), I verified it and sent a payment to escrow co.
4) I got paper work from a broker, notarized and signed and send them back
5) It took only 2 weeks until WM update the account and I got online access

Even though you live close to WM HQ and go and ask person to person, they will not release any information about seller's account unless seller give them a permission. So it would be better to ask seller to let you verify the ownership before you send any payment. Most of the time, seller and closing co. are the same on ebay sales, so do all your due diligent before you pay money to them.
Timeshare Angel or timeshare professional are reputable ebay sellers for WM. They don't charge closing cost to buyers, but their prices seem a little higher than usual.

WM is a club membership, not a deeded timeshare, so you don't need title insurance. If you verify the account well, it explains everything you need.


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## ecwinch

Just a couple of observations:

Most resale broker have a process for handling the transfer. So you will likely not see be involved in much of the behind the scenes activity between WM and the broker.

WM is a membership program rather than a deeded timeshare. So title insurance would not apply, since there is no title involved.

While the WM offices are in Redmond, the transfer is handled by the Wyndham transfer department in Orlando. They typically are very tight-lipped about discussing the account. In any communication with them you will need to know the WM membership number and owners name on the existing account.

In my transfer, I also had to pay a full year's m/f upfront. I do not think that this is a WM requirement, I think the resale brokers do it because that is what they are used to doing for fixed weeks. 

I would recommend paying by Paypal with a credit card to provide the maximum protection.

Most of the resale brokers have an escrow process for handling the money. 

The only "official" WM paperwork you will likely see in the process is the WorldMark Transfer Endorsement Certificate that you will be required to sign. It will be similar to an estoppel letter, in that it will describe the account in full detail - i.e. number of annual credits, award date (date new credits come on the account), and unused credits.

Once you have executed the transfer certificate, and the resale broker has told you that the paperwork has been sent in, then is the time to start checking with WM. Give it a couple of weeks, but I would start calling to ensure that they have the paperwork and everything is in order. I did have a problem with my account - WM claimed to never received the paperwork and the broker had proof of the delivery by Fed-Ex.


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## chriskre

If you bought it on ebay from one of the big TS resellers then you probably bought it from a postcard company.  

I've bought 3 units on ebay by these companies and they make you use their title company as part of the sale.  Obviously they are making money on the closing.  :annoyed:  But I still got good deals so it's okay.  Everyone's gotta eat.   

From what I understand how these companies work, the original owner pays a fee to the ebay seller to take it off their hands, the ebay seller puts up the auction and tries to get whatever he can for the unit, that's why they'll take $1.00 because they've already been paid by the original owner so anything they make on ebay is gravy.  Then they have a power of attorney and somehow either do a simultaneous closing or not sure how they get it into their names, maybe they record the quit claim deed when they get a buyer. It appears the seller is affiliated with the closing company or owned by them.  Probably owned under another corporate entity by the same individuals or group.  

They triple dip on these deals.  Money from seller, money from buyer and money from forcing you to use their title company.  Most of the ebay sellers stipulate that they won't let you use your own title company which in some states is illegal to do but obviously there don't seem to be any consequences to this as obviously no one is policing this.  I've seen listings refuse to sell any other way but thru their title company because they don't want to deal with title companies that are not familiar with closing timeshares.  This is probably true because there wouldn't be much money in closing a TS for most regular title companies.  

So far I've not had any issues with any of my ebay purchases of TS's, not that it couldn't happen to you but for me it's been good experiences except buying from direct owners who are clueless.  ( I bought 2 from direct owners on ebay).  The closing costs were cheaper but it took forever and I had to call the resort myself to make sure they had a copy of the deed etc.  

You will probably be fine with your purchase. Just keep in constant communication with them.  I find the ebay sellers have a good system in place to send you regular communication.  The title company will probably send you letters in the mail about the process.  

Good luck to you on your first TS acquisition.  

If you hang around this board too long this won't be your last.


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## Bill4728

By buying from someone who is charging you a $435 fee to close a TS which can not be closed since it is a membership, you are paying an additional $0.07/credit. So that great deal you got suddenly is only OK.

I tell them, no way I'm paying $435 to close when the only thing the closing company  is doing is to get the membership transfer docs signed and set to WM. 

If they want the sale, waive the $435.

There are lots a TS resellers who sell WM with no fee other than the MFs and transfer fees. NO closing cost at all.


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## Swedegeek

Thanks to all who responded - its really appreciated.  And I'm sure Chriskre is right - whether or not I hang around TUG, I'm sure this won't be my last TS purchase.  

As for the additional 0.07/point - I knew that going in, and even with it the deal was pretty good.  Next time I'll address the issue before the sale closes & do it myself.

Thanks again for all the help.


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## brigechols

Bill4728 said:


> By buying from someone who is charging you a $435 fee to close a TS which can not be closed since it is a membership, you are paying an additional $0.07/credit. So that great deal you got suddenly is only OK.
> 
> I tell them, no way I'm paying $435 to close when the only thing the closing company  is doing is to get the membership transfer docs signed and set to WM.
> 
> If they want the sale, waive the $435.
> 
> There are lots a TS resellers who sell WM with no fee other than the MFs and transfer fees. NO closing cost at all.



Can you send me a PM identifying these TS resellers who sell WM with no fee other than the MFs and transfer fees.
TIA!


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## Bill4728

Here is a  thread   from several years ago listing the biggest WM resellers.

PS looking at that thread, the websites seem to be asking about $0.50/pt or more. NOT a great price!


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## brigechols

Thanks. I considered buying WM but why buy resale at 0.35 - 0.68 per credit when I can rent points from a WM owner   Recently, I rented 16,500 credits for  0.04 per credit.


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## Bill4728

brigechols said:


> Thanks. I considered buying WM but why buy resale at 0.35 - 0.68 per credit when I can rent points from a WM owner   Recently, I rented 16,500 credits for  0.04 per credit.


The only people who can rent WM points/credits from WM owners are other WM owners. 

 So if you're like me (a non WM owner), you can't rents credits from a WM owner.


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## rickandcindy23

brigechols said:


> Can you send me a PM identifying these TS resellers who sell WM with no fee other than the MFs and transfer fees.
> TIA!



http://cgi.ebay.com/WORLDMARK-WYNDH...dZViewItemQQptZTimeshares?hash=item439cc9c7bd  This is one of my favorite resellers.


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## brigechols

Bill4728 said:


> The only people who can rent WM points/credits from WM owners are other WM owners.
> 
> So if you're like me (a non WM owner), you can't rents credits from a WM owner.



So if it is not a rental, how would you refer to a WM owner making a reservation on behalf of a non-WM owner and charging a fee for the reservation?


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## Bill4728

On this board, when people say that "they have rented their WM credits", it is almost always, a WM owner being paid a fee and then transfering the credits into another owners membership. That other owner can use those points just like they were his own points. 

Of course you're right, a WM owner can make a reservation at any of the great WM resorts, then transfer that reservation to anyone for a fee. Thereby renting his TS.


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## LLW

brigechols said:


> Thanks. I considered buying WM but why buy resale at 0.35 - 0.68 per credit when I can rent points from a WM owner   Recently, I rented 16,500 credits for  0.04 per credit.





brigechols said:


> So if it is not a rental, how would you refer to a WM owner making a reservation on behalf of a non-WM owner and charging a fee for the reservation?



There are 2 types of WM rentals: of credits, and of reservations. 

Credits may only be rented to other WM owners, who are the only ones with the accounts to receive the credits, then make their own reservations with them. The receiving owners have knowledge of the expiration dates of the credits, and control over the reservation. 

Reservations may be rented to anybody. Because WM reservations may be cancelled without reason or penalty up to 30 days, 10 days, and 2 days before check-in, there are risks associated with this type of rentals - the owner can cancel them at any time, even though the tenant may have a confirmation with their names on it. Also, if the owner is behind on any kind of payments to WM, the company may cancel the reservation at any time until check-in. Credits used for those reservations may reshuffle out of the reservations at any time, depending on what else is happening with the owner's account.

There are also risks from the owner's perspective, but those would not be of concern to you.

A safer way to rent would be to buy a small WM account, then rent unlimited numbers of credits (you would still need to do due diligence on the credit expiration dates) into the account, which may then be used to book reservations.


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