# Resort Fees on II exchange?  What next?



## Saaz124 (Aug 25, 2020)

Just got the welcome email for my II exchange and they are charging me $15.95 per day for the use of the pools, grills, play areas etc.  I already paid II several hundred dollars just for the trade.  Is this normal?  I've only done one other exchange and there were no fees on that one.  This is getting ridiculous.


----------



## tschwa2 (Aug 25, 2020)

Saaz124 said:


> Just got the welcome email for my II exchange and they are charging me $15.95 per day for the use of the pools, grills, play areas etc.  I already paid II several hundred dollars just for the trade.  Is this normal?  I've only done one other exchange and there were no fees on that one.  This is getting ridiculous.


which resort.  Diamond has been charging them for awhile.  RCI seems to encourage resorts to charge extra fees.  So yes it is becoming normalized.


----------



## Saaz124 (Aug 25, 2020)

Sedona Summit.  They said they have done it from the beginning.


----------



## dioxide45 (Aug 25, 2020)

If you are still within 24 hours of exchange booking, you can cancel. These fees should also be disclosed during the exchange process online.


----------



## PamMo (Aug 25, 2020)

Diamond started charging resort fees awhile ago, but Interval exchanges were somehow exempt, even though RCI exchangers had to pay it. *I stayed at Sedona Ridge (another Diamond Resort in Sedona) for six consecutive weeks in the same room last winter and had to pay the fee on my RCI exchanges, but not the Interval ones.* [Edited] I just went over an upcoming Interval exchange into Sedona Ridge reservation, and DON'T see the resort fee on it. I thought I saw it somewhere earlier, but it's nowhere on my paperwork. @Saaz124  Where did you see that you have to pay it?


----------



## tschwa2 (Aug 25, 2020)

Saaz124 said:


> Sedona Summit.  They said they have done it from the beginning.


That's a diamond resort.  They have been doing it for several years now.  My experience was in Williamsburg.  At one point they charged a bunch of a la carte fees to exchangers- for internet for mini golf, etc.  Then they changed to a mandatory resort fee at most of their resorts.  Owners booking using home week, or Diamond points or through Diamonds exchange don't pay.  Everyone else does.


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 25, 2020)

You ain't seen nuthin' - Hilton Kings' Land charges about $200 per week.


----------



## tschwa2 (Aug 25, 2020)

I've always felt if it included some unique extra special amenities or at a location with way more demand than supply maybe it was ok especially if it was reasonably priced.  For places like Williamsburg and Orlando it is just ridiculous.  By reasonable I  mean $25-$50 per week per 2 BR and maybe a little higher for 3-4 bedrooms.


----------



## PamMo (Aug 25, 2020)

I hate paying resort fees for *basic* amenities at a resort. The amenities are paid for through MF's, but the resort fees go directly to management. And especially during Covid, most amenities are limited or restricted altogether.

Hmmm??? Now here's a thought...if Harborside started charging resort fees equal to the cost of daily tickets to Aquaventure, maybe we could get a break on OUR maintenance fees? Ridiculous!


----------



## Tucsonadventurer (Aug 25, 2020)

We had a fee at Peak 8 in Breckinridge but I thought Sedona Summit charged for RCI exchanges but not interval. I could be wrong but that's what I recall


----------



## Eric B (Aug 25, 2020)

You should look at the ones Vidanta charges for exchanges.  Seems more common to have high ones when the exchanges are mostly bulk deposits (like Vidanta) as opposed to owner deposits.


----------



## PamMo (Aug 25, 2020)

Eric B said:


> You should look at the ones Vidanta charges for exchanges...



Sadly, that's why we don't exchange in there anymore.


----------



## Eric B (Aug 25, 2020)

PamMo said:


> Sadly, that's why we don't exchange in there anymore.



I'm pretty sure the SFX resort fee is still pretty low ($75?), but you can't get the higher level units.


----------



## pedro47 (Aug 25, 2020)

I feel II, is a little upset with DRI right now because they are leaving II, after December 31, 2020. IMHO.


----------



## PamMo (Aug 25, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> I feel II, is a little upset with DRI right now because they are leaving II, after December 31, 2020. IMHO.


Really? I regularly exchange into Diamond resorts in Sedona, and still see some availability through the end of 2021. Without Diamond inventory, Sedona pickings will be slim!


----------



## tschwa2 (Aug 25, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> I feel II, is a little upset with DRI right now because they are leaving II, after December 31, 2020. IMHO.


or is it Diamond washing there hands of II and now charging.  They are the ones that collect the fees and they may have dictated that the fees will be charged or don't accept the deposits.  Diamond would rather keep the exchange fees and membership fees themselves so they don't care if II was trying to restrict the fees.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Aug 25, 2020)

tschwa2 said:


> or is it Diamond washing there hands of II and now charging.  They are the ones that collect the fees and they may have dictated that the fees will be charged or don't accept the deposits.  Diamond would rather keep the exchange fees and membership fees themselves so they don't care if II was trying to restrict the fees.


Very true.  It's not II collecting the fees.  Why is the OP blaming II.


----------



## dioxide45 (Aug 25, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Very true.  It's not II collecting the fees.  Why is the OP blaming II.


Because II is allowing it to happen. II could simply say they can't charge the fees if they want to be in the network.


----------



## tschwa2 (Aug 25, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Because II is allowing it to happen. II could simply say they can't charge the fees if they want to be in the network.


II doesn't have a problem with Vidanata charging a $400+ resort fee.  Since RCI has no problem with anyone charging a resort fee, and II selectively allows charging and in this case Diamond doesn't particularly want members to be a part of the network, it seems like II doesn't have a strong leg to stand on if resorts want the fee charged.


----------



## NiteMaire (Aug 25, 2020)

PamMo said:


> Really? I regularly exchange into Diamond resorts in Sedona, and still see some availability through the end of 2021. Without Diamond inventory, Sedona pickings will be slim!


I just purchased a Sedona Summit unit so I've been following this for only a short time.  DRI is stopping the corporate II accounts.  They have their own internal program they will use as the primary exchange.  From the announcement: "For more than a decade, Diamond Resorts has partnered with Interval International® to provide you with additional vacation options. We are excited to announce that beginning in 2021, you will have a new exchange option with Destination Xchange. The best part? Destination Xchange is included in your membership with The Club...Destination Xchange will be The Club’s primary exchange provider."
DRI owners can still use II, but they'll have to use a personal account.  It remains to be seen how this will affect DRI deposits.  I presume it means fewer units in II, but I would imagine they would keep some in II so they could keep a stream of potential (new) customers.


----------



## Saaz124 (Aug 26, 2020)

I am not blaming II specifically, rather the whole system.  This is a DRI thing.  Hotels started doing this many years ago after they saw how well baggage fees worked for the airline.  Just getting tired of it.  This is just another way to nickle and dime us.  Here is the part of the email I received:

_Hotel Guests and Exchange Reservation: A photo identification, credit card for $200 security deposit and a $15.95 per night plus tax resort fee will be required (cash is not an acceptable form of deposit). Resort Fee includes recreational facilities including: four pools and six hot tubs, garden activities, 24 hour fitness center, garden gas grills, seasonal activities, 24 hour lobby coffee/tea, 24 hour business center computer/internet and boarding pass printing. 
- Owner Weeks and Member Points Booking: Photo Identification and credit card for security deposit will need to be provided at check-in. Resort fees* will be waived when staying on your owner week or member point reservations. A resort fee of $15.95 plus tax per night will be added to the reservation if the owner or member of THE Club® is checking in on a rental reservation. _

According to the person I spoke with on site at Sedona Summit, they have collected this fee from day one.  I can't verify this so it is what it is.


----------



## PamMo (Aug 26, 2020)

Saaz124, Thanks for posting your email from the resort (I assume it was from them). I'm very disappointed that the fees aren't spelled out anywhere in the booking process with Interval, other than a very generic sentence under *Imortant Information:* _You are responsible for imposed utility/energy surcharges, occupancy or similar taxes, service charges, telephone connection fees, long distance phone charges, personal charges, and applicable amenities usage, housekeeping or resort fees.  _That disclaimer leaves extra charges wide open to abuse, IMO.

I've always tried to use Interval vs RCI for Sedona Ridge, just to avoid paying the resort fees that are posted on the RCI website. First, I watch rising maintenance fees, then it's higher exchange fees, then it's upgrade unit size fees, now it's resort fees. Isn't timesharing fun????


----------



## Dave*H (Aug 26, 2020)

My opinion: Resort fees are a scam in most instances. In the instance of a hotel, they are a way to increase revenue from the unsuspecting. In the case of a timeshare, they are a way to transfer costs from owners to exchangers. Resort fees are only justified if the resort has an especially attractive amenity like a large water park. The fee should be optional and only charged to those that use the amenity. That said, I have knowingly exchanged into resorts that had a fee, but I was aware of the fee and it was relatively low. I still didn't like it. If I were to arrive at check-in and only then find out about a resort fee, I would first object, and if I couldn't get it removed, there would be some negative reviews coming. Exchange companies and resorts should go to extremes to make sure you are aware of the resort fee. It shouldn't be fine print at the bottom of the description.


----------



## pedro47 (Aug 26, 2020)

NiteMaire said:


> I just purchased a Sedona Summit unit so I've been following this for only a short time.  DRI is stopping the corporate II accounts.  They have their own internal program they will use as the primary exchange.  From the announcement: "For more than a decade, Diamond Resorts has partnered with Interval International® to provide you with additional vacation options. We are excited to announce that beginning in 2021, you will have a new exchange option with Destination Xchange. The best part? Destination Xchange is included in your membership with The Club...Destination Xchange will be The Club’s primary exchange provider."
> DRI owners can still use II, but they'll have to use a personal account.  It remains to be seen how this will affect DRI deposits.  I presume it means fewer units in II, but I would imagine they would keep some in II so they could keep a stream of potential (new) customers.


Will II left DRI owners exchange into their resort online, using points after 01/01/2021 ????


----------



## dioxide45 (Aug 26, 2020)

Dave*H said:


> In the instance of a hotel, they are a way to increase revenue from the unsuspecting.


They are also a way to lower the amount of commissions they have to pay to third party booking sites.


----------



## Eric B (Aug 26, 2020)

I believe that there are good and bad sides to resort fees depending on how they are implemented and the balance of the asymmetric knowledge problem.  At Vidanta, for example, there are substantial resort fees.  This is driven by the fact that at the higher ownership tiers the vast majority of exchange inventory consists of developer bulk deposits rather than owner exchanges, driven by a business model dominated by sales rather than management fee income.  As a result, a savvy TS user that likes shoulder season vacations can exchange in there with a low MF week, pay the substantial resort fee, and come out ahead of the game in that their total cost approximates or is lower than an owners cost for the same accommodations.  This won’t work for the high season, but if you consider the motivations of the sales side and the hotel side of the resort as not necessarily being well aligned, is rational and exploitable.


----------



## JeffC (Aug 27, 2020)

As far as paying resort fees when exchanging I balance the overall cost; exchange fee, resort fee and the cost of my deposit. Using RCI weeks as an example, if a DRI resort costs me 18 TPU and another resort w/o fees costs 23 or more, DRI is cheaper. RCI does disclose the fees when booking. I've never been charged a fee on an II exchange but I usually exchange into Marriots or Independents.


----------



## Eric B (Aug 27, 2020)

JeffC said:


> As far as paying resort fees when exchanging I balance the overall cost; exchange fee, resort fee and the cost of my deposit. Using RCI weeks as an example, if a DRI resort costs me 18 TPU and another resort w/o fees costs 23 or more, DRI is cheaper. RCI does disclose the fees when booking. I've never been charged a fee on an II exchange but I usually exchange into Marriots or Independents.



That pretty much matches my approach.  Because I have many TS to use to book an exchange, I also look at the underlying cost in MF for the exchange currency (e.g., RCI TPUs, WM credits, Wyndham points) to manage my total cost.  The exchange system interactions provide arbitrage possibilities, too - I can deposit an inexpensive week into RCI in a 2 BR Woodstone at Massanutten unit that only gets 18 TPU, exchange plus it into WorldMark for $129 to get 8,000 credits and a housekeeping token, then deposit it into Interval as a 2 BR Green/Blue season week to exchange there (with 2,000 credits left over).  That gives me a week in an II elite or preferred resort with ePlus for under $800 plus the potential resort fees using an underlying resort that isn’t in II.


----------



## normab (Aug 28, 2020)

We have not had an experience with resort fees.  We have had to pay for AC. 

In one instance, the Kona Coast Resort in Hawaii, has a statement right on the resort page in II. “ _NOTE: Exchange guests have the option of air conditioning in their units, for which an energy surcharge will be assessed by the resort.“ _So we knew what to expect before the trade.

However, in the case of Oyster Bay Beach resort in Sint Maarten, there is no such information on the II resort page. So the first time we went, many years ago, we got a big surprise at checkin.  There is no way we would be at a tropical resort without AC, so we pay for it.  It’s just wrong that it’s not listed in the directory.  And this is over ten years since we first went to OBBR.


----------



## BJRSanDiego (Aug 28, 2020)

Saaz124 said:


> _ A resort fee of $15.95 plus tax per night will be added to the reservation if the owner or member of THE Club® is checking in on a *rental *reservation. _
> 
> According to the person I spoke with on site at Sedona Summit, they have collected this fee from day one.  I can't verify this so it is what it is.



I'm curious, did you do an exchange or did you *buy a Getaway*?  

I booked  Sedona Summit as an exchange this morning for early 2021 and I haven't received the email with the fees.  I don't recall an advisory during the ePlus exchange.


----------



## theo (Aug 29, 2020)

PamMo said:


> The amenities are paid for through MF's, but *the resort fees go directly to management*.



Do you know this to be a fact or are you just speculating? Do you believe this statement to be true at *all* resorts, or just some?
I am not seeking to challenge you or to argue with you, but I have not seen this particular assertion made previously as such a blanket statement and, if it's accurate, I wonder if it is _*universally*_ true.

No dog in this fight; we don't exchange, don't belong to any exchange companies, don't plan to and don't want to. Just seeking to better understand some details on Planet Timeshare regarding a situation in which I admittedly have no prior knowledge or experience. That being said, I have to believe that "resort fees" have little (or nothing at all) to do with *any* exchange company.

I can easily understand (and to be honest, I have no problem at all with) the logic of resorts "squeezing" exchangers (i.e., non-owners) a bit in order to help deter / delay increasing maintenance fees for the actual owners at their facility. However, that logic is obviously flawed if those additional fees collected from "exchangers" don't actually make their way into the HOA coffers for facility support and maintenance, but instead just end up lining the pockets of the management entity. The important distinction between these two very different scenarios is what prompts me to question your blanket statement, quoted in pertinent part above for more factual verification or further clarification.


----------



## PamMo (Aug 29, 2020)

You are correct, theo, I don't have evidence that it's true of all resorts. In the large systems, developers maintain control of resorts/HOA. There is little transparency to where income from resort fees goes. The only resorts I own that charge a fee are in the Hilton system, and a single line item for miscellaneous income in the budget doesn't tell much. My MF's have certainly not gone down. Quite the opposite. Perhaps the only rooms they rent/exchange are developer owned? I don't know. Maybe Diamond owners got lower MF's when resort fees were implemented at their resorts? From what I read about Vidanta, the fees go to the developer/hotel side. It seems a bit crazy to pay a resort fee upwards of $800+ a week.

There was an interesting study done several years ago that promoted the idea of developers adding resort fees. It was such a simple idea, it was bound to happen. https://resorttrades.com/resort-fees-for-rental-guests/

*Resort Fees for Rental Guests*
March 1, 2015 Amy Gregory, PhD RRP

*What has become common practice in the traditional resort lodging industry segment is virtually non-existent in the timeshare industry. For years, hotels have assessed resort fees averaging as much as $15 – $25 per night, reporting that approximately 80 percent of the fees collected is profit. *Hotels started collecting fees in 1997 to offset the costs of increased services and amenities that consumers desired and to keep the hotels competitive in a market with increasing supply. Because fees are collected at check-in or check-out, hoteliers are able to advertise a lower rate, but accumulate more revenue from each room night sold. In 2013, the hotel industry generated $2.0 billion in revenues from fees.

*Renting developer or HOA controlled inventory has become a growing component of the timeshare industry, but very few resorts have implemented a resort fee.* ARDA’s International Foundation, in its 2014 State of the Industry Report, states that rental revenues from the timeshare segment accounted for $1.8 billion dollars annually. This revenue is generated from 11.5 million rental room nights with an average daily rate of $160. Further, ARDA reports that approximately 14 percent of timeshare inventory is rented. Regardless of whether your resort rents more, less or an equivalent percentage of timeshare inventory, *an additional revenue-generating opportunity exists in implementing an incremental resort fee for rental guests.* *Perhaps more importantly, the revenue produced from resort fees drops directly to the bottom line, thereby providing an incremental revenue stream for the HOA to utilize in offsetting increasing costs, delinquent maintenance fees, or costs associated with increased services or amenities.*

Since implementing and collecting the fee is an issue that is contained within the front office and can be resolved fairly easily, it is likely that HOAs or management companies have not implemented these fees because they are uncertain as to whether rental guests will accept such fee structures. To resolve this question, a survey was distributed to rental guests of timeshare companies throughout the United States. Responses from 461 surveys were analyzed to determine the level of familiarity with hotel fees, feedback on acceptable items included for a fee, and the general acceptance level of resort fees. The results suggest that an opportunity exists to generate incremental revenue through implementation of a resort fee, but more importantly, the results demonstrate that acceptance of the fee is increased with education and implementation.

For 24 percent of the respondents, they reported encountering resort fees “all” or “most” of the time when traveling for leisure purposes. An equal amount (38 percent) of the respondents stated that they encounter resort fees “sometimes”, as those that stated they encounter them “rarely” or “never.” All of those participating in the survey were presented with a nightly hotel room rate of $140 and a daily $25 resort fee. Interestingly enough, 72 percent of the respondents reported that this fee structure was “definitely” or “somewhat” acceptable. However, when presented with a $185 nightly rate and a $25 resort fee for a stay at a timeshare resort, only 53 percent of the respondents reported that this fee structure was “definitely” or “somewhat” acceptable. In both cases, the participants were informed that the resort fee was collected to cover parking, fitness center access and wifi. Verification of the practicality of the amenities was validated with more than 80 percent stating that they intended to use the parking and wifi, but only 48 percent intended to use the fitness center. Despite the lower acceptance of the resort fee associated with the rental of a timeshare resort, in comparison to a hotel, one should not overlook the importance that more than half of the respondents (all timeshare renters) reported the fee as acceptable. In fact, that number increased to 58 percent when the respondents were told that other renters deemed the fee as appropriate.

If timeshare HOAs or management companies were to implement resort fees and successfully collect them from 53 percent of the renters, timeshare resorts could potentially collect approximately $250,000 annually. This assumes the industry averages reported by ARDA’s International Foundation in the 2014 State of the Industry Report with the average timeshare resort unit count in the United States (125 units), running 78 percent occupancy, with 14 percent rental inventory, and an average rental stay of 4 nights, where 50 percent of the rental guests are charged and accept the $25 nightly resort fee. *Presuming that traditional lodging estimates of 80 percent of the revenue dropping directly to the bottom line, timeshare resorts could potentially gain $200,000 annually through the implementation of a resort fee.*

Before jumping in with the fee, however, it is important to understand what amenities or services are valued by rental guests, if the amenity or service can be restricted if the fee is not paid, and how the resort plans to communicate and educate rental guests about the fee. *Because timeshare owners (and exchangers) pay for amenities and services in their annual maintenance fee, it is not suggested that a fee be charged to owners or exchangers.* Front desk employees and management need to understand why the fees are being implemented, how they are to be administered, and what escalation process exists should renters complain or reject the fee.

_For more information on this particular research project or to extend the research within your resort, please email Amy.Gregory@UCF.edu. Amy Gregory – PhD, RRP is an Assistant Professor at the University of Central Florida’s Rosen College of Hospitality Management. With more than 25 years of industry experience, including 18 years in the timeshare industry, Amy’s goal is to increase formalized timeshare education at the university level and to conduct and promote meaningful research that contributes to the advancement of the timeshare industry._


----------



## Eric B (Aug 29, 2020)

@PamMo & @theo, it does differ from resort to resort.  For Vidanta, the way the vast majority of the RTU contracts are set up, the usage fees are fairly high but are not mandatory if an owner doesn’t want to use or exchange the week that year.  As a result, most of the exchange inventory in RCI & II is a result of bulk developer deposits for which no MFs or usage fees have been paid.  While the resort fees go to the developer, it’s not in addition to an MF payment in general.  There are some older contracts with mandatory annual fees, but those are at the Grand Mayan level and down.  I, for one, would be hard pressed to deposit a week from there in either RCI or II - I have done so with ThirdHome, though.  If you do a direct exchange for a Vidanta week with an owner through a private arrangement, there wouldn’t be a resort fee either.  Also, for exchanges through SFX there is a lower resort fee.

As another example, at Massanutten, the MFs used to cover all the resort amenities.  A couple of years ago, they changed that and shifted those costs to resort fees, alleviating potential MF increases to a certain extent.  So there it doesn’t wind up being double dipping for the developer and does make it a somewhat fairer split between owners, exchangers, and renters.

Those are the ones I know about; I’m sure there are other bases elsewhere for how resort fees are set up.


----------



## PamMo (Aug 29, 2020)

Eric B said:


> ...As another example, at Massanutten, the MFs used to cover all the resort amenities.  A couple of years ago, they changed that and shifted those costs to resort fees, alleviating potential MF increases to a certain extent.  So there it doesn’t wind up being double dipping for the developer and does make it a somewhat fairer split between owners, exchangers, and renters..



Interesting. So did owners at Massanutten pay a lower MF after that? And do they pay a resort fee on top of their MF when they stay there?

Maybe it's just me  , but in a resort with common expected amenities, it seems like accounting jiu-sitsu to separate these "extras" from regular maintenance. Like the OP listed in their Sedona Summit reservation, the _Resort Fee includes recreational facilities including: four pools and six hot tubs, garden activities, 24 hour fitness center, garden gas grills, seasonal activities, 24 hour lobby coffee/tea, 24 hour business center computer/internet and boarding pass printing._

But, I know I'm never going to win on this argument. I'll just have to watch for these additional fees.


----------



## Eric B (Aug 29, 2020)

At Massanutten it didn’t wind up being a lower one, but instead one that didn’t go up as much as it otherwise would have.  Kind of makes sense when other resorts are charging fees to start doing it as well, otherwise your owners are paying twice for amenities when they exchange; once at the home resort through MFs and again where they’ve exchange into.  Owners do pay when they stay there, but a lower rate than exchangers do.


----------



## Eric B (Aug 29, 2020)

Also, at Massanutten there are several different HOAs that use or don’t use common amenities.  Kind of complicates things.


----------



## tschwa2 (Aug 29, 2020)

PamMo said:


> Interesting. So did owners at Massanutten pay a lower MF after that? And do they pay a resort fee on top of their MF when they stay there?
> 
> Maybe it's just me  , but in a resort with common expected amenities, it seems like accounting jiu-sitsu to separate these "extras" from regular maintenance. Like the OP listed in their Sedona Summit reservation, the _Resort Fee includes recreational facilities including: four pools and six hot tubs, garden activities, 24 hour fitness center, garden gas grills, seasonal activities, 24 hour lobby coffee/tea, 24 hour business center computer/internet and boarding pass printing._
> 
> But, I know I'm never going to win on this argument. I'll just have to watch for these additional fees.


In Massanutten the developer didn't sell the pools and recreation center and other facilities to the owners.  In most resorts, owners own 1/52 divided by the total number of units of the facilities and pay for the upkeep.    Massanutten kept them and charged a $50 facility charge to the owners for each unit owned regardless of size.  They started charging that fee 3 years ago when owners still paid the fee.  That year owners didn't have to pay the resort fee.  The following year they removed the fee but the total charges still where more than the year before but they tried to sell it as "only" a 2% increase.  In reality owners started to have to pay $48 per lock off side so basically there was a 2% increase plus an additional $46 to use their own unit.  The developer has since changed to charge per bedroom but still pay $126 resort fee when using there own 4 BR unit vs the $50 they used to charge owners.  The do charge more for non owners they charge about $196 per 4 BR unit for non owners.  Because Great Eastern owns the facilities, owners really don't have a say (unfortunately).


----------



## dougp26364 (Aug 30, 2020)

II started with the extra fees several years ago, and it changed my recommendation for timeshare ownership from own a timeshare you would be happy to use a majority of the time to own a timeshare system that has an internal exchange program you’re happy with and has the destinations you desire the most.

To that end we dumped our DRI ownerships, not because we weren’t happy with the destinations they offered, we were unhappy with their THEClub fees and MF’s when compared to the quality and actual resorts locations in the destinations offered (Maui for instance is NOT in a highly desirable location for the island). We’ve ended up consolidating to MVC and HGVC plus two others we own to use.

I’m also hoping to dump our II membership after next year. I had planned on getting rid of it this year, but my wife changed jobs and we either needed to deposit a unit or lose it. I wasn’t able to complete an exchange before the membership ran out so, I extended one more year. Both MVC and HGVC have internal exchange systems that work for us. The resort we own in Branson is associated with RCI has has such little value with RCI there’s no reason we ever want to pay their membership fees + exchange fees + potential resort fees, all on top of our maintenance fees. With the resort we own in II, it’s a high end resort and one of their largest units with the better/best views. I can’t get an equivalent exchange value IMHO. It’s FAR to expensive to pay the MF’s + II membership fee + exchange fees and possible resort fees.

When we started with timeshare in 1998, we LOVED II. We started with a 2 bedroom lock off unit, would lock it off and get two exchanges for the price of one unit. We could usually upgrade the studio portion to a 1 bedroom WITHOUT paying an upgrade fee. We also use receive accommodation certificates that had some REAL value to them. We used one for our first stay at Marriott’s Ocean Pointe, a resort were we became owners. Little by little II has offered less value for more money. So much so I no longer include them in our vacation plans. We’ve gone from making 2 to 4 exchanges per year to none.

It’s not all II fault. A lot has been resort developers trying to get a bigger slice of the pie. Points reservations and systems with internal exchange programs have taken a bite out of the exchange business. Resort developers want to encourage ownership rather than people exchanging into their resorts. They also want to keep the fees lower for their owners, so charging resort fees to exchangers seems like a good idea to them. It encourages ownership in THEIR system.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Aug 30, 2020)

> To that end we dumped our DRI ownerships, not because we weren’t happy with the destinations they offered, we were unhappy with their THEClub fees and MF’s when compared to the quality and actual resorts locations in the destinations offered (Maui for instance is NOT in a highly desirable location for the island). We’ve ended up consolidating to MVC and HGVC plus two others we own to use.


Ka'anapali Beach is not a highly desirable location?  It's next to the Westin resorts.  I love the location and staying there for the first time in March.


----------



## dougp26364 (Aug 30, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Ka'anapali Beach is not a highly desirable location?  It's next to the Westin resorts.  I love the location and staying there for the first time in March.



KBC is most defiantly NOT next to the Westin timeshares. In fact it’s a pretty good drive down the road on a rather narrow strip of beach that has some erosion issues. We’ve stayed at KBC twice and at the MVC resort, which IS next door to the Westin’s. Since it’s your first time their, you’ll see what I mean if you spend a little time at Whalers Village, which is located about halfway between the locations. 

Don’t get me wrong, KBC is a wonderful resort. We’re not big beach people so the smaller strip of sand doesn’t matter to us. It’s one of the resorts we miss about DRI, but, it’s definitely not the most desirable location on Maui.

These are links to our photo albums. You might get an idea of the difference between the beaches. If you use google maps, you can see the distance between the Westin timeshares and DRI timeshares. 









						DRI Ka'anapali Beach Club March 2015 - dougp26364
					

Maui Hawaii: One bedroom deluxe Ocean View units. Corner unit 412 and side unit 404




					dougp26364.smugmug.com
				












						DRI Ka'anapali Beach Club April 2013 - dougp26364
					

Maui Hawaii1 bedroom deluxe ocean view




					dougp26364.smugmug.com
				












						Marriott’s Maui Ocean Club Feb. 26, 2019 - dougp26364
					

1 bedroom, 2 bathroom ocean front master suite of 2 bedroom lock-off




					dougp26364.smugmug.com
				




But I digress. The point of the thread is the extra fees added on by II. Since 1998, they’ve come up with so many we’ve all but stopped exchanging. The reasons we went with MVC instead of DRI would be another subject for another thread


----------



## vacationtime1 (Aug 30, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Ka'anapali Beach is not a highly desirable location?  It's next to the Westin resorts.  I love the location and staying there for the first time in March.



DRI's Ka'anapali Beach Club is NOT on Ka'anapali Beach.  It is a couple hundred yards north of Ka'anapali Beach (and the Westin resorts, and Dukes, and the boardwalk, etc.).  To get from KBC to Ka'anapali Beach, one must either walk about a half mile (up to the road, around the separation fence, and back down to the beach) OR walk on the beach around a rocky point that is innundated at high tide.


----------



## SmithOp (Aug 30, 2020)

vacationtime1 said:


> DRI's Ka'anapali Beach Club is NOT on Ka'anapali Beach. It is a couple hundred yards north of Ka'anapali Beach (and the Westin resorts, and Dukes, and the boardwalk, etc.). To get from KBC to Ka'anapali Beach, one must either walk about a half mile (up to the road, around the separation fence, and back down to the beach) OR walk on the beach around a rocky point that is innundated at high tide.



There is a third way between the two. Honoapiilani Public Access free parking lot is at the end of the boardwalk just north of Dukes, no need to go up to the highway.

We enjoyed our stay at KBC, whatever beach you want to call it, you are still in Hawaii. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## NiteMaire (Aug 30, 2020)

dougp26364 said:


> Don’t get me wrong, KBC is a wonderful resort. We’re not big beach people so the smaller strip of sand doesn’t matter to us. It’s one of the resorts we miss about DRI, but, *it’s definitely not the most desirable location on Maui.*


Do you mean the resort or the area?  Either way, what do you consider the most desirable location on Maui?


----------



## dougp26364 (Aug 30, 2020)

NiteMaire said:


> Do you mean the resort or the area?  Either way, what do you consider the most desirable location on Maui?



I think I’ve inadvertently taken this thread about resort fees in an entirely different, and wrong, direction

My point was more that, if you don’t want to pay resort fees, you now need to own in that system. For us, we choose MVC over DRI because DRI’s fees where MVC high but we felt they weren’t MVC quality.

A lot has changed in the years we’ve been timeshare owners, including al, the extra fees associated with exchanges, and those extra fees drove us away from the major exchange companies and into the arms of developers who offer a package of resorts and a reasonable internal exchange system. 

The developers have been smart. Initially they tried to sell the idea of exchange. But that worked to well. People would buy one week like we did, split it, get two weeks vacation. There were several TUGGERS who advised buying the cheapest to own weeks and exchanging into the most expensive resorts, and it was good advice because it worked.

Developers wised up. They have slowly taken control of their inventory. They’re systems have kept exchanges mostly internal and it’s more difficult to exchange in from outside. Some also pass the buck of expenses off on exchangers in what I assume is an attempt to keep MF’s a little lower for their own owners. I use to get miffed when a resort I owned provided WiFi for free to exchangers, but the resort I exchanged into wanted to charge me an extra fee for WiFi. It felt like I was paying my MF’s and some of theirs as well.


----------



## chellej (Aug 30, 2020)

I have found the same issue with GPX..specifically Hanalei Bay but also with the DRI resorts it gets.  Hanalei Bay:  $20/night resort fee, $7.51/night tax, $6/night parking, and a $25 check-in fee....total is $259.57 per week for a 2 bedroom.  It is always a struggle to justify that on top of the $219 exchange fee.   Still, about $1400/ week with maintenance figured in...close to many Hawaii maintenance fees.  Gone are the days of using cheap maintenance fees to get Hawaii .


----------



## MICROZE (Aug 30, 2020)

NiteMaire said:


> Do you mean the resort or the area?  Either way, what do you consider the most desirable location on Maui?


Having stayed at the Marriott [MMO, MM1], WKORVN [KAN], Westin Nanea [WNA] & Hyatt [HKB] mostly 2BR [few 3BR] units. The the Marriott & Hyatt are at the best location within minutes walking distance to Whalers Village. Even though we own at Marriott & Westin, we liked Hyatt the best as almost all rooms faced the water. Westin Nanea [although newest] was our worst experience with the stench from the sewage plant. Hope its improved since then.


----------



## frank808 (Aug 30, 2020)

MICROZE said:


> Having stayed at the Marriott, WKORVN, Westin Nanea & Hyatt I have to say the the Marriott & Hyatt are at the best location few minutes walking distance to Whalers Village. Even though we own at Marriott & Westin, we liked Hyatt the best as almost all rooms faced the water. Westin Nanea [although newest] was our worst experience with the stench from the sewage plant. Hope its improved since then.


Can't do anything about the stench when the wind is blowing the right way.  I can smell it when we have been at WKORVN when the wind blows the right way.  I can only imagine how much stronger the smell is at Nanea since it is literally across the street from the sewage plant.


----------



## klpca (Aug 31, 2020)

chellej said:


> I have found the same issue with GPX..specifically Hanalei Bay but also with the DRI resorts it gets.  Hanalei Bay:  $20/night resort fee, $7.51/night tax, $6/night parking, and a $25 check-in fee....total is $259.57 per week for a 2 bedroom.  It is always a struggle to justify that on top of the $219 exchange fee.   Still, about $1400/ week with maintenance figured in...close to many Hawaii maintenance fees.  Gone are the days of using cheap maintenance fees to get Hawaii .


But still a lot less that the maintenance fees at HBR.


----------



## heathpack (Aug 31, 2020)

The question becomes: what’s the alternative?

I have Hyatt and Marriott properties, including some DC points.

Hyatt works well for me, in that we love the Carmel and Sedona properties and travel to both (pretty much) every year.  We own in Incline Village and will finally be staying there this year.

Our Marriott west coast options are not as wide- we love Park City.  But Palm Springs, Vegas, and Newport Coast are “meh” for us.  We love Tahoe but prefer N Lake Tahoe to S Lake Tahoe.  Pulse locations in San Diego and San Francisco are great, but I can get hotel stays with rewards points so they don’t matter hugely to me.

But for Sedona, we love the Sedona Summit exact location on account of great access to trails.  We have that too with the Hyatt but fewer trails.  

For us, trading stays in the mix right now because we want access to the summit area, and also a few other non-Marriott, non-Hyatt locations like Napa.  But I’ve seriously been running the math on this- and frequently I can rent an AirBnB with similiar unit amenities, often a nice view that I get automatically, flexible check in/out dates and duration of stay, often more flexible cancellation policy, and the ability to bring the dogs- for the same or lower cost when I figure in initial purchase costs, II membership fees, exchange fees, exchange add ons (like EPlus) and junk fees the resorts want to charge.  I used to argue that timeshares were a hedge against future cost increases but with trading that is not necessarily the case, as new ways are continually found to increase the cost.   (Full disclosure- frequently the AirBnBs are more expensive but I’m willing to pay more for all the extras- bring the dogs, short stay, flexible cancellation, etc.  You’ve gotta do the work to figure your best options.  Sedona off season is surprisingly cheap with AirBnB, as is Park City.  Tahoe is surprisingly expensive with a lot of shabby places).

Right now, I work each year to rent out whatever timeshares I don’t want to use in order to free up that cash to use on AirBnB travel.  But that’s enough work that I think I’m going to need to get rid of a few timeshares- namely Marriott Barony Beach (because it’s an inefficient trader as a non lock off and we no longer plan to use it) and SBP (which has been a great efficient trader but I’m not optimistic about the future cost effectiveness of trading).  I’ll probably keep the two Hyatts (they are great for use at the properties, internal trading and II trading), the Marriott Mountainside and associated DC points, and the DVC.

We already have moved to a mix of timeshare and AirBnB travel, and I can see that trend continuing over time.


----------



## MICROZE (Aug 31, 2020)

heathpack said:


> For us, trading stays in the mix right now because we want access to the summit area, and also a few other non-Marriott, non-Hyatt locations like Napa.  But I’ve seriously been running the math on this- and frequently I can rent an AirBnB with similiar unit amenities, often a nice view that I get automatically, flexible check in/out dates and duration of stay, often more flexible cancellation policy, and the ability to bring the dogs- for the same or lower cost when I figure in initial purchase costs, II membership fees, exchange fees, exchange add ons (like EPlus) and junk fees the resorts want to charge.  I used to argue that timeshares were a hedge against future cost increases but with trading that is not necessarily the case, as new ways are continually found to increase the cost.   (Full disclosure- frequently the AirBnBs are more expensive but I’m willing to pay more for all the extras- bring the dogs, short stay, flexible cancellation, etc.  You’ve gotta do the work to figure your best options.  Sedona off season is surprisingly cheap with AirBnB, as is Park City.  Tahoe is surprisingly expensive with a lot of shabby places).


In response to your comment on Exchange-Fees, here is what I summarized a while back comparing exchanging Direct VERSUS Via-Interval.

The following is an example of depositing a 2BR-Lock-Off [Studio + 1BR] and exchanging for 2-Weeks in a 2BR-Unit.
This is what we were sold as a benefit of owning a 2BR-LO [High-Value Hawaii-Marriott with High-MF] and exchanging for 2x2BR-Units via Interval before the Size-Upgrade fee showed up.

Worst case: Someone could end up paying over $1000 in Interval-Fees for 2-Weeks of vacation.

The first 3-Columns are the cost with a Basic II-Membership.
The Last 2-Columns are the cost with a Platinum II-Membership.

Since Marriott & Vistana pays for Basic-Membership its a little cheaper.
Its obvious that the Marriott-Enrolled option is the cheapest when exchanging via Interval especially M-M.
Platinum pays off when one has multiple weeks and leverages E-Plus & Size-Upgrade multiple times.

Vistana-Platinum is $111 [$139 x 5-Years - $139 1-Year-Free]
Marriott-Platinum is $69.50 [50%-Off].


----------



## heathpack (Aug 31, 2020)

@MICROZE, I agree it’s a little different math for everyone.  I have three II accounts.  One is my corporate Hyatt account, which is bundled with our MF.  One is my DC Marriott account, which I can’t see ever using as I’d just use the DC points in the Marriott system.  I also don’t pay anything extra for that II account.  My Barony and SBP weeks are in my personal II account which I pay out of pocket for.  

Upgrading three II accounts to Platinum is a no-go from a $ perspective.  Plus I always trade the SBP but never the Barony week (I use it or rent it at a small profit), and the SBP is a 1BR so I’m only making 1 trade per year.  The only account that makes any sense to consider Plat for is the Hyatt corporate account, but with the only possibility (I believe) to upgrade in unit size is to spend more Hyatt points.  So Plat would only really make sense to get free GCs.  In short, it doesn’t really make sense.

However none of this specifically matters because each of us needs to look at it for our own specific ownership paradigm.  But... the question I’ve been conteplating of late is: how far do I go with this TS thing, when it has some huge limitation- inflexible cancellation, no pets, limited locales, inflexible check in dates, inflexible number of days per stay, etc?  Sure I get around some of this with DC and HRC and DVC stays.  But I don’t think for us personally it makes sense for example to chase VSN membership over AirBnB.  We have “enough” TS already (even after we offload some) and can take our chances with the exchanges we can get with those, and rent a house or condo otherwise.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Aug 31, 2020)

heathpack said:


> @MICROZE, I agree it’s a little different math for everyone.  I have three II accounts.  One is my corporate Hyatt account, which is bundled with our MF.  One is my DC Marriott account, which I can’t see ever using as I’d just use the DC points in the Marriott system.  I also don’t pay anything extra for that II account.  My Barony and SBP weeks are in my personal II account which I pay out of pocket for.
> 
> Upgrading three II accounts to Platinum is a no-go from a $ perspective.  Plus I always trade the SBP but never the Barony week (I use it or rent it at a small profit), and the SBP is a 1BR so I’m only making 1 trade per year.  The only account that makes any sense to consider Plat for is the Hyatt corporate account, but with the only possibility (I believe) to upgrade in unit size is to spend more Hyatt points.  So Plat would only really make sense to get free GCs.  In short, it doesn’t really make sense.
> 
> However none of this specifically matters because each of us needs to look at it for our own specific ownership paradigm.  But... the question I’ve been conteplating of late is: how far do I go with this TS thing, when it has some huge limitation- inflexible cancellation, no pets, limited locales, inflexible check in dates, inflexible number of days per stay, etc?  Sure I get around some of this with DC and HRC and DVC stays.  But I don’t think for us personally it makes sense for example to chase VSN membership over AirBnB.  We have “enough” TS already (even after we offload some) and can take our chances with the exchanges we can get with those, and rent a house or condo otherwise.


Yes, I get the no pets thing for you, especially, and that is really the only reason why we haven't gotten a dog.  I love dogs, and it's something I miss so much.  We even chose not to replace our cats because I was too worried about leaving them, when we go for six weeks to Europe or Hawaii.  

I couldn't be away from our dog for even a week without missing her greatly, so we couldn't do any long trips that we do now without taking the dog. I guess we will have to wait until we are done traveling.


----------



## heathpack (Aug 31, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Yes, I get the no pets thing for you, especially, and that is really the only reason why we haven't gotten a dog.  I love dogs, and it's something I miss so much.  We even chose not to replace our cats because I was too worried about leaving them, when we go for six weeks to Europe or Hawaii.
> 
> I couldn't be away from our dog for even a week without missing her greatly, so we couldn't do any long trips that we do now without taking the dog. I guess we will have to wait until we are done traveling.



Our dogs’ breeder will watch them for free, obviously subject to availability.  But she’s 2.5 to 3 hrs away from us, so it can make some of our long road trips way longer.  We miss them but at least when they’re left at the dachshund ranch, we know they are in very good hands at the place they were both born and they get to reconnect with dogs they know- their littermates, papa and one dogs mama.  So it’s ok.

But.  We like them.  We‘d prefer to travel with them.  Our style of travel is very dog compatible- we hang out at the condo a lot, cook in, do outdoor stuff they can join in on.  The lack of pet friendliness is the biggest drawback to TS right now for us.  

We get it that not everyone wants to be around dogs on their vacation, so I don’t begrudge timeshares for not being dog friendly.  And stand alone houses are more relaxing for us too, when the dogs are around.  They want to bark at every strange noise or person, so in a hotel or condo, we are constantly on them to keep them politely quiet.  And they’re cute, everyone wants to pet them.  But they’re not wild about strangers petting them.  We make them accept it a little, because that’s part of life.  Constant unwanted attention is a bit much for them though.  So a TS stay with our dogs would be manageable but not as relaxing for everyone as a house rental is.

Lots of factors come into play with travel decisions...


----------



## BJRSanDiego (Aug 31, 2020)

At my Marriott timeshares when someone exchanges in from a non-Marriott timeshare I don't think that they pay for parking, energy, resort amenities, resort fees, etc.   If a Diamond TS owner exchanges into a Marriott they don't pay those fees and specifically don't pay a resort fee.  

So, there is a lack of reciprocity between Marriott and Diamond.  One thing that could be done by Marriott is to charge the Diamond owners fees equal to what Diamond is collecting.  (That would indirectly help lower the maintenance fees a little).  Plus apply this to other resorts that employ fees on Marriott owners.  But this whole thing is like putting a tariff on other countries' imported products...it easily gets out of hand like it has between China and the US.

A lot of people pay $ to ARDA either directly or indirectly.  I wonder if ARDA has any position on the non-reciprocal charging of fees?  Also, if ARDA is supposedly representing the timeshare industry.  They tout that "When an issue arises that affects the industry, ARDA is there."  Yeah, sure....


----------

