# [MVW Sales Rep says Resale Trust Points are not the same as Direct-Purchase]



## SeaDoc (Jun 21, 2015)

I just found out through a friend that bought 2500 points externally, paid all the 'bucket fees' and goes to a presentation and finds out he does not have the same rights as those that buy points through MVCI.  He has full access to all trust inventory, BUT DOES NOT HAVE ACCESS to deposited ownership weeks.  This is huge as it limits availability, especially to our existing properties with week owners that our depositing their weeks in the internal exchange for club points.  It will have less of an effect to new properties that will be coming on line, i.e. San Diego, Big Island Hawaii, and South Beach, Fl which will go directly into trust inventory.  

External point purchasers are labeled in the MVCI system as "Purchaser, Guarantor or Amenity User Only" which means they have no right to reserve ownership weeks...

If anyone has Marriott contacts, please feel free to confirm this.


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## Wally3433 (Jun 21, 2015)

I would agree that this is a huge difference.  Actually, ANYTHING not transferred on an external sale should be known and quantified.  Curious if anyone can confirm this.


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## tschwa2 (Jun 21, 2015)

Finding something out at a presentation is not a reliable source of info.  He just needs to compare with an owner with only converted points, and one with only retail trust points and one with a combo of trust points and converted weeks.  Even if they "see" different inventory initially (although he should see the exact same as the retail dc points only), try putting in a request.


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## SeaDoc (Jun 21, 2015)

It clearly differentiated it on his 'tour sheet' when he went on a presentation that these were not pure points purchased, but had limitations as noted previously... I had been under the impression that there were no such differences so I wanted you all to hear about this... Please confirm this - I am certain one of our fellow 'tuggrs' have contacts in MVCI who can confirm this... Thanks




tschwa2 said:


> Finding something out at a presentation is not a reliable source of info.  He just needs to compare with an owner with only converted points, and one with only retail trust points and one with a combo of trust points and converted weeks.  Even if they "see" different inventory initially (although he should see the exact same as the retail dc points only), try putting in a request.


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## GregT (Jun 21, 2015)

I don't understand this point.  I don't have any problems seeing exchange inventory with my resale points.    I may not understand the distinction you are making but my Trust Points have been uninhibited.  

Best,

Greg


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## dioxide45 (Jun 21, 2015)

Resale weeks were always differentiated in the past. Though they did have some limitations like not being able to trade for MR points. Though the reps at times claimed there were a lot more limitations. Does the "tour sheet" actually list the limitations, not sure what the verbiage you stated really means.

What about all the trust inventory that seems to get depsoited in to the exchange company at 12 months. It seems like MVCI dumps most trust inventory there and trust owners and exchange points can book it.


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## Werner Weiss (Jun 21, 2015)

SeaDoc said:


> External point purchasers are labeled in the MVCI system as "Purchaser, Guarantor or Amenity User Only" which means they have no right to reserve ownership weeks...



Vacation Club (Destinations Program) Points, even if purchased directly from Marriott Vacation Club, cannot be used to reserve traditional ownership weeks directly.

And traditional ownership weeks cannot be used to book Trust inventory directly.

However, the Destinations Program includes an exchange pool. Here, inventory comes together from the Trust and from enrolled weeks owners (when they opt in for points). Marriott Vacation Club does its best to fulfill vacation requests (within the rules of the program). It seems to be working well.

My understanding has always been that Points owners who bought resale and paid the substantial re-enrollment fee are treated no differently than Points owners who bought directly from the developer.

If I am mistaken about this, I would love to be pointed to official Marriott Vacation Club documents that explain the difference.


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## taffy19 (Jun 21, 2015)

SeaDoc said:


> I just found out through a friend that bought 2500 points externally, paid all the 'bucket fees' and goes to a presentation and finds out he does not have the same rights as those that buy points through MVCI.  He has full access to all trust inventory, BUT DOES NOT HAVE ACCESS to deposited ownership weeks.  This is huge as it limits availability, especially to our existing properties with week owners that our depositing their weeks in the internal exchange for club points.  It will have less of an effect to new properties that will be coming on line, i.e. San Diego, Big Island Hawaii, and South Beach, Fl which will go directly into trust inventory.
> 
> External point purchasers are labeled in the MVCI system as "Purchaser, Guarantor or Amenity User Only" which means they have no right to reserve ownership weeks...
> 
> If anyone has Marriott contacts, please feel free to confirm this.


It sounds like a sales person needed a sale so used fear tactics to get your friend to buy.

This shouldn't be allowed by the Sales Staff in charge, IMO.


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## SeaDoc (Jun 21, 2015)

Yes, the tour sheet actually states the following regarding his 2500 points:

"Purchaser, Guarantor or Amenity User Only" which means they have no right to reserve ownership weeks...



dioxide45 said:


> Resale weeks were always differentiated in the past. Though they did have some limitations like not being able to trade for MR points. Though the reps at times claimed there were a lot more limitations. Does the "tour sheet" actually list the limitations, not sure what the verbiage you stated really means.
> 
> What about all the trust inventory that seems to get depsoited in to the exchange company at 12 months. It seems like MVCI dumps most trust inventory there and trust owners and exchange points can book it.


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## SeaDoc (Jun 21, 2015)

I'm glad for you... I'm just sharing his concerns and if anyone knows a Marriott contact to confirm this it would be appreciated by all...



GregT said:


> I don't understand this point.  I don't have any problems seeing exchange inventory with my resale points.    I may not understand the distinction you are making but my Trust Points have been uninhibited.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


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## dioxide45 (Jun 21, 2015)

SeaDoc said:


> Yes, the tour sheet actually states the following regarding his 2500 points:
> 
> "Purchaser, Guarantor or Amenity User Only" which means they have no right to reserve ownership weeks...



So is the part not in quotes what is actually on the tour sheet? Or was that a sales reps statement?


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## dioxide45 (Jun 21, 2015)

The Exchange Procedures document does outline the Initiation Fee.

Page 10: 





> H. Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, and Special Benefits. Exchange Company may offer Special Benefits through the Program to certain Members, from time to time. Such Special Benefits may vary, are not part of the Affiliate Program (or its reservation system), and are provided solely as part of the Program at the sole discretion of Exchange Company. Exchange Company has the right to establish such rules and regulations as it deems necessary to adequately govern Member access to such Special Benefits, which may include certain fees. In addition, Exchange Company has the right to restrict use of any Base Plus Exchange Benefits and Special Benefits offered by Exchange Company to certain Members, including, without limitation, only to those Members who (i) purchase an Interest from or through an "*Approved Broker*" which includes: (a) the developer of the Member?s Affiliate Program or Component; or (b) such other entity approved by Exchange Company, from time to time; (ii) acquire the Interest by virtue of being a Family Member by gift, will, divorce decree, testamentary disposition, intestate succession or trust from a Member; or (iii) is otherwise granted Membership by Exchange Company, upon the terms and conditions then determined by Exchange Company in Exchange Company?s sole discretion. If a Member does not purchase the Member?s Interest from an Approved Broker, such Member may be limited to only Base Exchange Benefits, or upon payment of the initiation fee, if permitted in Exchange Company?s sole discretion, Base Plus Exchange Benefits. Any offered Special Benefits are subject to separate terms and conditions, which may be changed, substituted, or eliminated without prior notice. Some Special Benefits may be provided by independent third parties and Exchange Company expressly disclaims responsibility for the acts or omissions of any persons or entities providing such Special Benefits. Special Benefits are only available to Guests that are accompanied by a Member or a Family Member of the Member.



Page 14: 





> D. Effect of Transfer of Member's Interest. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties to a sale, assignment, or transfer, if a Member (?Selling Member?) sells, assigns, or transfers the Selling Member?s Interest to another party (?New Member?), the Selling Member will lose any and all rights to utilize the Exchange Points associated with such Interest to reserve the use of a Use Period or to use any previously-reserved Use Period. Each New Member will be required to remit to the Exchange Company an initiation fee; provided, however, an initiation fee shall not be required to be paid if the New Member is a Family Member of the Selling Member. (The current initiation fee is $500 per Interest with a $3,000 minimum initiation fee; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company's sole discretion.) Exchange Company will, within ten (10) business days of receipt from a New Member of the initiation fee, if required, and a certified copy of the recorded deed transferring an Interest to the New Member, change Exchange Company?s official records to reflect such transfer of an Interest from a Selling Member to a New Member. Further, with respect to Trust Members, until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the New Member may not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Special Benefits in Exchange Company?s sole discretion; however, payment of the initiation fee (or waiver by Exchange Company) will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. With respect to Exchange Members, until payment of the initiation fee, the New Member will not be entitled to participate in the Program. If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Special Benefits in Exchange Company's sole discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties, all existing reservations previously made by the Selling Member will be cancelled. The New Member will also be given possession of the Selling Member?s Exchange Points remaining as of the date of Exchange Company?s recognition of such transfer. Exchange Company shall, from time to time, within ten (10) business days after receipt of written request from any Member execute, acknowledge and deliver to such Member or to any existing or prospective purchaser or mortgagee designated by such Member, a certificate stating the number of Exchange Points that the Member has used and/or has available for use during the current Use Year, any borrowed Exchange Points, and the details of any reservations currently held by the Member. Exchange Company may charge a fee in connection with providing such a certificate.


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## SeaDoc (Jun 21, 2015)

What was on the tour sheet was in quotes - he took a picture of it.  The non-quoted was what the terminology was explained to him at the presentation.




dioxide45 said:


> So is the part not in quotes what is actually on the tour sheet? Or was that a sales reps statement?


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jun 21, 2015)

Werner Weiss said:


> My understanding has always been that Points owners who bought resale and paid the substantial re-enrollment fee are treated no differently than Points owners who bought directly from the developer.



I bought resale and never had an issue.  If I choose to redeem DC points for MR points I am able to do that as well.


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## SeaDoc (Jun 22, 2015)

Good to hear - just wanted to share this with the group... 



NYFLTRAVELER said:


> I bought resale and never had an issue.  If I choose to redeem DC points for MR points I am able to do that as well.


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## Beefnot (Jun 22, 2015)

SeaDoc said:


> What was on the tour sheet was in quotes - he took a picture of it. The non-quoted was what the terminology was explained to him at the presentation.



Which means the non-quoted part was sales distortion.


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## tschwa2 (Jun 22, 2015)

SeaDoc said:


> Good to hear - just wanted to share this with the group...



So apparently no one here has a Marriott contact that they want to share.  If you friend wants a written explanation from a non sales Marriott rep then he can always start by clicking "Contact Us" from marriottvactionclub.com


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## SeaDoc (Jun 22, 2015)

Apparently, sorry I brought this up for discussion.



tschwa2 said:


> So apparently no one here has a Marriott contact that they want to share.  If you friend wants a written explanation from a non sales Marriott rep then he can always start by clicking "Contact Us" from marriottvactionclub.com


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## Fasttr (Jun 22, 2015)

SeaDoc said:


> If anyone has Marriott contacts, please feel free to confirm this.



Craig...If I am not mistaken, I believe you have pitched me points at Shadow Ridge.  Seems like you would likely have more MVC contacts than any of us would.

This all sounds like your typical salesman misdirection to me.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 22, 2015)

I don't understand the point of this thread unless it's to dupe people who might not know better into believing something that's not true, and, apparently, to generate sales by a sales rep.

So what if the sales reps know by a specific notation in a file that somebody has bought DC Points on the external resale market?  They've always been able to tell with Weeks, why not with Points?  What matters is that the people who have bought external-resale Points have all reported to TUG that those Trust Points can be booked the same as direct-purchase Trust Points.

If we're laying odds on who to believe, I'd put my money on those who have experience with actually using the Points.


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## jme (Jun 22, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> I don't understand the point of this thread unless it's to dupe people who might not know better into believing something that's not true, and, apparently, to generate sales by a sales rep.
> 
> So what if the sales reps know by a specific notation in a file that somebody has bought DC Points on the external resale market?  They've always been able to tell with Weeks, why not with Points?  What matters is that the people who have bought external-resale Points have all reported to TUG that those Trust Points can be booked the same as direct-purchase Trust Points.
> 
> If we're laying odds on who to believe, I'd put my money on those who have experience with actually using the Points.



Agree with Susan.   but I think a point blank question regarding that is in order, and that from someone higher up and not simply a sales rep. I'm doing the presentation this weekend at HH because I purchased a 3-night promo stay (requiring presentation), so we'll see.  I'm always interested to "see what's new and exciting in the program".     (yeah, right)

I'll follow the chain up until I get a definitive answer, at least from HH offices.  Perhaps someone calling the corporate office would also be a good idea, if anyone who owns resale points is so inclined.

I might add that I definitely trust the experience that GregT has enjoyed, and that is, there has been no difference seen in the day-to-day use of resale points when searching or booking, and that says it all to me, BUT I will still pursue a definitive answer from Marriott. 



.


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## taffy19 (Jun 22, 2015)

Susan, I am really puzzled by Fasttr's post.  I always believed that Seadoc (Craig) was a very big Trust Point owner and is very happy with the new program but this post makes me believe that Craig may have worked for the Marriott so he should have the right contact information himself so why ask for it?

Was Seadoc working for the company but got canned so he is stirring the pot?

If it is in black and white that re-sale Trust Points have all the same benefits as Trust Points from the Marriott then you are protected.  If the plan changes again, then these points that re-sale buyers own should be grandfathered.

Reading your post makes me believe that he may be working for them still (corporate Sales Office ?) and he may try to put doubt in our minds so people may not bother buying re-sale points but will buy new trust points from the company direct.  I know that Palm Desert has a Corporate Sales Office so what is the case here?



Fasttr said:


> Craig...If I am not mistaken, I believe you have pitched me points at Shadow Ridge.  Seems like you would likely have more MVC contacts than any of us would.
> 
> This all sounds like your typical salesman misdirection to me.






SueDonJ said:


> I don't understand the point of this thread unless it's to dupe people who might not know better into believing something that's not true, and, apparently, to generate sales by a sales rep.
> 
> So what if the sales reps know by a specific notation in a file that somebody has bought DC Points on the external resale market?  They've always been able to tell with Weeks, why not with Points?  What matters is that the people who have bought external-resale Points have all reported to TUG that those Trust Points can be booked the same as direct-purchase Trust Points.
> 
> If we're laying odds on who to believe, I'd put my money on those who have experience with actually using the Points.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 22, 2015)

iconnections said:


> Susan, I am really puzzled by Fasttr's post.  I always believed that Seadoc (Craig) was a very big Trust Point owner and is very happy with the new program but this post makes me believe that Craig may have worked for the Marriott so he should have the right contact information himself so why ask for it?
> 
> Was Seadoc working for the company but got canned so he is stirring the pot?
> 
> ...



Now I'm as confused as you are, Emmy.    I took Fasttr's post to mean that he met with SeaDoc as a sales rep during a presentation, but I guess it's as possible that they both were at the resort and chatted about DC Trust Points while hanging out at the grills or something?

If SeaDoc is a sales rep, well then obviously he has an ulterior motive here.  If he's not, then I still don't understand why he wants us to believe something - or get "official confirmation" of something - that just doesn't appear to be happening.  Going by what the actual owners of external-resale DC Trust Points have been telling us ever since the first TUGger closed on a resale purchase, if all of the correct fees are paid then external-resale Points work the same as direct-purchase Points.

Of course, anybody - including SeaDoc - who wants to try can ask.  Executive Leadership is here if you want to go right to the top, or, customer.care@vacationclub.com is the MVW-suggested address for any-and-all inquiries.  IMO they're never going to answer this question as specifically as we might want them to because they rarely - if ever - parse the legalese into plain English.  With these kinds of things, for me, the TUG reports of owners' experiences are far better indicators than any sound bites we might get from MVW.

Isn't this just a typical, "a sales rep said something to lead someone into believing that buying direct offers more benefits than buying external-resale."  That happens all the time!  That's how I see this, anyway, just another thing not worth pursuing if they're not willing to put it in writing.  I like to save my inquiries/contact for things like clearing up contradictory statements from two or more reps, confirming cancellation and other usage rules, etc.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 22, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> Now I'm as confused as you are, Emmy.    I took Fasttr's post to mean that he met with SeaDoc as a sales rep during a presentation,...



This is how I took the post also.


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## Fasttr (Jun 22, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> This is how I took the post also.



Me too.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 22, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> Me too.



HA!  I see what you did here, too.  Thank you!

And I'm going to repeat, loudly:  *If SeaDoc is a sales rep, well then obviously he has an ulterior motive here.*

He hasn't said anything earth-shattering here that's absolutely correct other than,  owners' accounts are notated in such that MVW reps know when an owner has purchased DC Trust Points on the external-resale market.  Everything else is inference, the same as many of his posts have always been, to try to lead readers to believe that DC Trust Points should be purchased direct in order to protect all usage options.  As yet (and none of us knows if changes will be made in the future by MVW,) there simply aren't usage differences between direct-purchase and external-resale DC Trust Points.

He's been corrected many times by many TUGgers about many things he's posted, proving that for our purposes it's pretty much immaterial that he's an MVW sales rep.  Now that he's been "outed," I'll say that he hasn't, yet, broken any TUG Posting Rules re advertising his own business (and I've been watching.)  Also, as near as I can tell he does not have permission from MVW to post to TUG in any sort of an official capacity.

So do what you will with whatever info he shares here, whether your choice is to question him the same as any other TUGger, believe that he carries some cache as an MVW rep, or believe that he's a fraud because he's an MVW rep.    His employers will find him out sooner or later; they always do.


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## klpca (Jun 22, 2015)

Here you go.

[_Link deleted._]


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## sea&ski (Jun 22, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> HA!  I see what you did here, too.  Thank you!
> 
> And I'm going to repeat, loudly:  *If SeaDoc is a sales rep, well then obviously he has an ulterior motive here.*
> 
> He hasn't said anything earth-shattering here that's absolutely correct other than,  owners' accounts are notated in such that MVW reps know when an owner has purchased DC Trust Points on the external-resale market.



So, Sue, can you just move your post to be the next following his?  I.E. post #2
:rofl:

And then move the Linked In 'link' to the one after!


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## dioxide45 (Jun 22, 2015)

[_Deleted._]


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## l0410z (Jun 22, 2015)

I sold and managed a sales team at IBM for 30 years.   It was very simple, error on behalf of a customer or company, you get a free get out of jail card.....error on your own behalf, you could be fired. If given a second chance and your manager does nothing, he/she should be fired.  Like Marriott, IBM was never the cheapest and the expectation was a sales person could sell the IBM value proposition.  

 While timeshare is a different industry, Marriott is a well respected name that stands for something.  Customer should not accept a sales person misleading them nor should the company.  

I believe Brian Miller is the VP and chief sales and marketing officer.  If  I thought the facts were misrepresented, I would start there.  

I once purchased an Encore Package to HHI because I needed a second unit during my stay the following year.  I was misled on the ease to accomplish this.  The sales person no longer worked there by the time I tried scheduling my package.   Everyone pointed to the no refund statement when I complained.   I reached out to the VP of customer satisfaction to discuss the situation.  I got a full refund.  This was a while ago.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 22, 2015)

[_Deleted._]


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## SueDonJ (Jun 22, 2015)

sea&ski said:


> So, Sue, can you just move your post to be the next following his?  I.E. post #2
> :rofl:
> 
> And then move the Linked In 'link' to the one after!



No way to change the order of posts but that's okay, the thread gets more entertaining as you read through it.


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## Fasttr (Jun 22, 2015)

I really have no problem with SeaDoc being a MVC sales rep and a TUGger....just be open about it and use your knowledge for good, not misdirection.  

Speaking of misdirection, I really don't understand the MVC Sales Machine's attempts to undermine the resale points market by making accusations that resale points don't function like retail points.  Because MVC has no buyback program for points, if I actually believe the BS they are shoveling, why would I ever buy more points from MVC because they are basically telling me I can never get rid of them because I really have no avenue to do so.  Their "logic" makes no sense.

To MVC....just collect your $2/point junk fees on the resale points for doing absolutely nothing, recapture resale points at $5/point and below via ROFR so you can sell them again at $12/point+, tell your sales team to quit bashing resale points, and be happy.  There is plenty of money to go around.


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## klpca (Jun 22, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> I really have no problem with SeaDoc being a MVC sales rep and a TUGger....just be open about it and use your knowledge for good, not misdirection.
> 
> Speaking of misdirection, I really don't understand the MVC Sales Machine's attempts to undermine the resale points market by making accusations that resale points don't function like retail points.  Because MVC has no buyback program for points, if I actually believe the BS they are shoveling, why would I ever buy more points from MVC because they are basically telling me I can never get rid of them because I really have no avenue to do so.  Their "logic" makes no sense.
> 
> To MVC....just collect your $2/point junk fees on the resale points for doing absolutely nothing, recapture resale points at $5/point and below via ROFR so you can sell them again at $12/point+, tell your sales team to quit bashing resale points, and be happy.  There is plenty of money to go around.



Exactly. No big whoop that he's a MVC sales rep. He should proudly represent his product/company. 

I'll never understand the need to bash resale anything. If your product is good, it's good. Throw in some incentives to purchase from the developer, but don't bash the exact same product sold on the resale market. It's either a good product or it's not.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Jun 22, 2015)

When I have attended a presentation as a DC points (resale) owner, the sales rep is aware of this as it appears to be on their sheet (experienced this 2x since 12/2014).  I have flat out asked whether I am considered any different in the eyes of MVCI as a DC points (resale) owner and the answer is no.  So far I have had no issues whether booking, usage, etc.... I think comments such as the original post are merely scare tactics (whether intended or not).


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## jimf41 (Jun 22, 2015)

I don't know about the rest of you but I find the OP's posts a little low. Pretending to be just another owner while making up a fictitious friend _"I just found out through a friend that bought 2500 points externally..."_ is a little beyond misleading, it's deceitful. It's the type of thing that gives all in the sales field a bad reputation. A reputation that does not apply to the great majority of folks who make their living in sales.


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## davidvel (Jun 22, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> I really have no problem with SeaDoc being a MVC sales rep and a TUGger....just be open about it and use your knowledge for good, not misdirection.
> 
> Speaking of misdirection, I really don't understand the MVC Sales Machine's attempts to undermine the resale points market by making accusations that resale points don't function like retail points.  Because MVC has no buyback program for points, if I actually believe the BS they are shoveling, why would I ever buy more points from MVC because they are basically telling me I can never get rid of them because I really have no avenue to do so.  Their "logic" makes no sense.
> 
> To MVC....just collect your $2/point junk fees on the resale points for doing absolutely nothing, recapture resale points at $5/point and below via ROFR so you can sell them again at $12/point+, tell your sales team to quit bashing resale points, and be happy.  There is plenty of money to go around.



Yes, Seadog [Craig] sells at Shadowridge, not at the pool.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 23, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> I don't know about the rest of you but I find the OP's posts a little low. Pretending to be just another owner while making up a fictitious friend _"I just found out through a friend that bought 2500 points externally..."_ is a little beyond misleading, it's deceitful. It's the type of thing that gives all in the sales field a bad reputation. A reputation that does not apply to the great majority of folks who make their living in sales.



Hey, the story could be true. Perhaps he does have a friend who was told this. Doubtful, but possible. Though don't be asking us if we have good contacts at MVCI when he should have plenty himself.


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## Fairwinds (Jun 23, 2015)

[_Deleted._]


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## SueDonJ (Jun 23, 2015)

[_Deleted._]


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## taffy19 (Jun 23, 2015)

Susan, the reason I was confused is that I understood from Fasttr's post that Craig is a sales person and I didn't think this was allowed by Marriott Corporate. We have had a few other Sales Reps posting here too but not after 1 or 2 times and I know that SeaDoc has posted a lot.

Is it allowed or not? If it is, why didn't he say so as he certainly believes in the program?

I don't believe that Marriott could stop them meeting customers in their private time; at least I hope not.


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## GreenTea (Jun 23, 2015)

[_Deleted._]


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## SueDonJ (Jun 23, 2015)

iconnections said:


> Susan, the reason I was confused is that I understood from Fasttr's post that Craig is a sales person and I didn't think this was allowed by Marriott Corporate. We have had a few other Sales Reps posting here too but not after 1 or 2 times and I know that SeaDoc has posted a lot.
> 
> Is it allowed or not? If it is, why didn't he say so as he certainly believes in the program?
> 
> I don't believe that Marriott could stop them meeting customers in their private time; at least I hope not.



TUG rules don't prevent it unless a sales rep breaks TUG Posting Rules, especially the one related to advertising/sales/soliciting.  This includes, by the way, unsolicited PM's or emails from sales reps who harvest your contact info off of TUG, so if you've gotten one from SeaDoc or any other sales reps you can report them to mods/admin.  But TUG doesn't act as company police - TUG will suspend/remove any posters for breaking the rules but TUG doesn't report rogue employees to their employers.

As a rule Marriott is like any other company these days when it comes to any social media - their employees are not to be considered "official spokespersons" until/unless confirmation of same is obtained through exec level statements.  From what I've seen over the years on TUG, when it becomes known that Marriott reps are posting here they generally disappear soon after if their posting history reflects poorly on the company (which I would say, SeaDoc's does.)  You have to believe that the companies all monitor TUG and other social media sites (they'd be foolish not to!) and the reason the bad guys disappear so quickly is because Marriott has issued ultimatums to them.  The good guys are a different story; there are probably several Marriott reps who post here routinely but they'll never be asked to stop by Marriott or TUG because they don't try to act as spokespersons, the company isn't hurt by their participation here (the company may not even be aware of their activity,) and they're not breaking any of the TUG rules.


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## jme (Jun 23, 2015)

[_Deleted._]


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## GreenTea (Jun 23, 2015)

I'm just going to guess the profile will be gone by the end of the work day & perhaps it will be Stelthy's last day on the sales floor.


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## jme (Jun 23, 2015)

[_Deleted._]


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## Fairwinds (Jun 23, 2015)

[_Deleted._]


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## Beefnot (Jun 23, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> As a rule Marriott is like any other company these days when it comes to any social media - their employees are not to be considered "official spokespersons" until/unless confirmation of same is obtained through exec level statements. From what I've seen over the years on TUG, when it becomes known that Marriott reps are posting here they generally disappear soon after if their posting history reflects poorly on the company (*which I would say, SeaDoc's does.*)


 
Interesting. How so?


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## davidvel (Jun 23, 2015)

I don't understand all the personal bashing of his resume. I understand that he relocated to the desert for family reasons based upon my conversations with him. I don't know anything about him personally other than the fact that I have toured with him at Shadowridge. I know that he did some transactions on vacation point Exchange that people were satisfied with. The only reason I commented in this thread was because I felt that his OP was a bit misleading given his position, as I had done on a previous thread.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 23, 2015)

Beefnot said:


> Interesting. How so?



Because he has a well-established pattern of posting the typical things that sales reps say, never straight out but meant to infer that external resale purchasers do not get the same usage/benefits from their ownerships as the owners who buy direct from Marriott.  And while it's true that there may be slight differences and/or that the potential for Marriott to implement in the future more-signifiant changes based on what's in the governing docs, SeaDoc has written these things on TUG as if significant differences exist now.  We know from our experiences as owners that they don't. 

In other words, he's been using TUG as a bully pulpit to scare potential owners into believing that they shouldn't purchase on the external-resale market, all the while using deceit and innuendo to suggest that he's in-the-know but not nearly as connected as he actually is.

Most people would complain about a sales rep who uses similar tactics during a sales presentation, and Marriott isn't happy when folks take those complaints to the exec level.  At least during a presentation you know you're dealing with a sales rep and you know you can escalate a bad experience up the ladder.  On TUG SeaDoc didn't give TUGgers the courtesy of letting them know his motivation, the courtesy of allowing them to know exactly where they or he stood.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 23, 2015)

GreenTea said:


> I'm just going to guess the profile will be gone by the end of the work day & perhaps it will be Stelthy's last day on the sales floor.



This would likely depend on how good the sales person is. If they have a clean record and have good sales, they won't terminate the employee. It is all about sales. If they have other disciplinary actions against them, something like "commenting publicly on behalf of the company" could be the last straw.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 23, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> This would likely depend on how good the sales person is. If they have a clean record and have good sales, they won't terminate the employee. It is all about sales. If they have other disciplinary actions against them, something like "commenting publicly on behalf of the company" could be the last straw.



But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that regardless of a clean record and good sales, Marriott would respond to something like this thread with a simple, "stop posting there" to any employee who generates this level of negativity on any social media site.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 23, 2015)

[_Deleted._]


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## dioxide45 (Jun 23, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that regardless of a clean record and good sales, Marriott would respond to something like this thread with a simple, "stop posting there" to any employee who generates this level of negativity on any social media site.



I am pretty sure the company would tell the employee to stop posting to social media. They likely wouldn't terminate the employee for such actions unless it was the straw that broke the camels back.


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## Beefnot (Jun 23, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> Because he has a well-established pattern of posting the typical things that sales reps say, never straight out but meant to infer that external resale purchasers do not get the same usage/benefits from their ownerships as the owners who buy direct from Marriott. And while it's true that there may be slight differences and/or that the potential for Marriott to implement in the future more-signifiant changes based on what's in the governing docs, SeaDoc has written these things on TUG as if significant differences exist now. We know from our experiences as owners that they don't.
> 
> In other words, he's been using TUG as a *bully pulpit* to scare potential owners into believing that they shouldn't purchase on the external-resale market, all the while using *deceit and innuendo to suggest that he's in-the-know but not nearly as connected as he actually is*.
> 
> Most people would complain about a sales rep who uses similar tactics during a sales presentation, and Marriott isn't happy when folks take those complaints to the exec level. At least during a presentation you know you're dealing with a sales rep and you know you can escalate a bad experience up the ladder. On TUG SeaDoc didn't give TUGgers the courtesy of letting them know his motivation, the courtesy of allowing them to know exactly where they or he stood.


 
I kind of agree about the deceit and innuendo part, not so much about the bully pulpit part. One interesting allusion he did make is that as a "Purchaser, Guarantor or Amenity User Only" external purchasers may have no right to weeks inventory. Although in practice it currently appears to be moot, is this theoretically a benefit that could be removed as a resale benefit at some point? Is there any legal or practical impediment to Marriott doing this?


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## rovitm (Jun 23, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> I am pretty sure the company would tell the employee to stop posting to social media. They likely wouldn't terminate the employee for such actions unless it was the straw that broke the camels back.




Depending on the industry some firms have strict policies regarding social media use.  Many don't want their employees to represent the company without its consent.   Reputation risk is a big concern.


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## davidvel (Jun 24, 2015)

Saw Seadog roaming the sales floor at Shadow Ridge today during our tour. Was a funny moment given this thread.


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## GreenTea (Jun 25, 2015)

[_Deleted._]


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## SeaDoc (Jun 25, 2015)

As a pediatrician I work with kids to prevent needless suicides because they get bashed on Social Media.  Thankfully, as an adult I have the emotional stability to brush it off as 'mob mentality'.  All I did was to present a fact to this website that I learned from another owner who had purchased points on the open market.  It was based on truth, and all I did was to request that those who have purchased points on the open market corroborate its validity.  

Ironically, your own rules of posting state the following:


Advertising is prohibited.

The Bulletin Board is for DISCUSSION. It is not for sales or solicitations. If you have something to sell, trade or rent, TUG Members may post up to 25 ads at a time in our Timeshare Marketplace at no charge. If you cannot adhere to the BBS posting rules, your posts will be deleted. This is a lot of extra work for the volunteers and offenders are not viewed well by them.

*If you are a broker or salesperson, or work in an allied field, we welcome your participation on the board. We value your industry perspective and valuable insights. *

I never represented myself other than an owner, which I am, and I have been for decades and have every right to share my insights on this website (or do I?).  Apparently, this vitriolic response as to my character and past employment, all of which is true sickens me.  It is this evil that causes our children to commit suicide.  I am done with all of you...




[_Quote of deleted post removed._]


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## davidvel (Jun 25, 2015)

I have to say I agree with Seadog. As noted above the attacks on his resume are completely unfounded, aside from his not mentioning his affiliation. The way this thread has been handled  illustrates a complete double standard on this board , and in my opinion a violation of board rules against personal bashing.

Had these attacks ben made against any other non-salesman member, I am sure there would have been a much different response, even a closed thread. 

As one of the people that confirmed his affiliation, I am sorry this "open season to tag a salesperson" happened.


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## Ty1on (Jun 25, 2015)

[_Deleted._]


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## Beefnot (Jun 25, 2015)

davidvel said:


> I have to say I agree with Seadog. As noted above the attacks on his resume are completely unfounded, aside from his not mentioning his affiliation. The way this thread has been handled illustrates a complete double standard on this board , and in my opinion a violation of board rules against personal bashing.
> 
> Had these attacks ben made against any other non-salesman member, I am sure there would have been a much different response, even a closed thread.
> 
> As one of the people that confirmed his affiliation, I am sorry this "open season to tag a salesperson" happened.


 
Agree.

[_Deleted._]


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## akdrc (Jun 25, 2015)

So....  The Trust points are not the same (or are they)?!?  I was less confused before I read this thread.  If one of Marriott's own sales reps can't explain it straightly, how can I trust Marriott?  I am less likely to buy into Marriott, resale or otherwise, if I cannot get a straight answer.  And the sad thing is, I have liked every Marriott property I have ever stayed at (I just spent a week, last week in May, at Desert Ridge - loved it).


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## LAX Mom (Jun 25, 2015)

It's time to close this thread.


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## macster43 (Jun 25, 2015)

LAX Mom said:


> It's time to close this thread.



No No it is just getting interesting....


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## davidvel (Jun 25, 2015)

akdrc said:


> So....  The Trust points are not the same (or are they)?!?  I was less confused before I read this thread.  If one of Marriott's own sales reps can't explain it straightly, how can I trust Marriott?  I am less likely to buy into Marriott, resale or otherwise, if I cannot get a straight answer.  And the sad thing is, I have liked every Marriott property I have ever stayed at (I just spent a week, last week in May, at Desert Ridge - loved it).


I would listen to Greg and the other long time tuggers that posted above.


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## Beefnot (Jun 25, 2015)

akdrc said:


> So.... The Trust points are not the same (or are they)?!? I was less confused before I read this thread. If one of Marriott's own sales reps can't explain it straightly, how can I trust Marriott? I am less likely to buy into Marriott, resale or otherwise, if I cannot get a straight answer. And the sad thing is, I have liked every Marriott property I have ever stayed at (I just spent a week, last week in May, at Desert Ridge - loved it).


 
In current state trust points do appear to operate the same based on experiences of other TUGgers, despite any distinct technical designations as to how retail vs. resale points are classified in MVC's systems.  

Whether the designation of resale trust points owners as "Purchaser, Guarantor or Amenity User Only" could/would one day be accompanied a by restriction to their usage, I suppose purely speculative at this point.


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## GregT (Jun 25, 2015)

All,

When I did my sales update earlier this week, I looked at the printout related to my ownership, and I didn't see the language noted earlier (Purchaser/Guarantor/something like that).  

I don't think we should take swipes at SeaDoc, but conversely, I wish SeaDoc had been forthcoming about his relationship to Marriott, instead of inviting us to use our contacts at Marriott.  It appears disingenuous, however I hope he stays on TUG and comes out of the closet.   It would be interesting to have a sales rep who posted their opinions on the board, and candid and accurate statements could be valuable.

As an example, imagine how the dialogue would have changed if SeaDoc had said the following:

"Hey TUGgers, I'm a sales rep at Shadow Ridge and have even met a few of you.  I'm here unofficially, as a timeshare owner who happens to work for Marriott, but wanted to alert the TUG community that in the future, the use of resale points may be more restricted than in the past.  I know some of you have not noticed any restriction before, but the rumblings here are that Marriott no longer feels the need to allow future resale owners to be unrestricted. You may want to do your own diligence before assuming continuing unrestricted access.  Feel free to ask me any questions you like and I will answer them as directly as I can without pissing off my employer, but please don't attack me for my profession.  I'm an owner too".

That would have caused all of us to pause -- didn't we have a sales rep before that was candid and was a well respected member of TUG?  Worked for Marriott then Disney?  Or vice versa?

Best,

Greg


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## DavidBr (Jun 25, 2015)

If we go all the way back to post #12, 
H. Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, and Special Benefits. Exchange Company may offer Special Benefits through the Program to certain Members, from time to time. Such Special Benefits may vary, are not part of the Affiliate Program (or its reservation system), and are provided solely as part of the Program at the sole discretion of Exchange Company. Exchange Company has the right to establish such rules and regulations as it deems necessary to adequately govern Member access to such Special Benefits, which may include certain fees. In addition, Exchange Company has the right to restrict use of any Base Plus Exchange Benefits and Special Benefits offered by Exchange Company to certain Members, including, without limitation, only to those Members who (i) purchase an Interest from or through an "Approved Broker" which includes: (a) the developer of the Member?s Affiliate Program or Component; or (b) such other entity approved by Exchange Company, from time to time; (ii) acquire the Interest by virtue of being a Family Member by gift, will, divorce decree, testamentary disposition, intestate succession or trust from a Member; or (iii) is otherwise granted Membership by Exchange Company, upon the terms and conditions then determined by Exchange Company in Exchange Company?s sole discretion. If a Member does not purchase the Member?s Interest from an Approved Broker, such Member may be limited to only Base Exchange Benefits, or upon payment of the initiation fee, if permitted in Exchange Company?s sole discretion, Base Plus Exchange Benefits. Any offered Special Benefits are subject to separate terms and conditions, which may be changed, substituted, or eliminated without prior notice. Some Special Benefits may be provided by independent third parties and Exchange Company expressly disclaims responsibility for the acts or omissions of any persons or entities providing such Special Benefits. Special Benefits are only available to Guests that are accompanied by a Member or a Family Member of the Member.  

Page 14: 
Quote:
D. Effect of Transfer of Member's Interest. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties to a sale, assignment, or transfer, if a Member (?Selling Member?) sells, assigns, or transfers the Selling Member?s Interest to another party (?New Member?), the Selling Member will lose any and all rights to utilize the Exchange Points associated with such Interest to reserve the use of a Use Period or to use any previously-reserved Use Period. Each New Member will be required to remit to the Exchange Company an initiation fee; provided, however, an initiation fee shall not be required to be paid if the New Member is a Family Member of the Selling Member. (The current initiation fee is $500 per Interest with a $3,000 minimum initiation fee; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company's sole discretion.) Exchange Company will, within ten (10) business days of receipt from a New Member of the initiation fee, if required, and a certified copy of the recorded deed transferring an Interest to the New Member, change Exchange Company?s official records to reflect such transfer of an Interest from a Selling Member to a New Member. Further, with respect to Trust Members, until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the New Member may not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Special Benefits in Exchange Company?s sole discretion; however, payment of the initiation fee (or waiver by Exchange Company) will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. With respect to Exchange Members, until payment of the initiation fee, the New Member will not be entitled to participate in the Program. If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Special Benefits in Exchange Company's sole discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties, all existing reservations previously made by the Selling Member will be cancelled. The New Member will also be given possession of the Selling Member?s Exchange Points remaining as of the date of Exchange Company?s recognition of such transfer. Exchange Company shall, from time to time, within ten (10) business days after receipt of written request from any Member execute, acknowledge and deliver to such Member or to any existing or prospective purchaser or mortgagee designated by such Member, a certificate stating the number of Exchange Points that the Member has used and/or has available for use during the current Use Year, any borrowed Exchange Points, and the details of any reservations currently held by the Member. Exchange Company may charge a fee in connection with providing such a certificate.  

When I specifically asked the question (asked both owner services and owner modification department) "does a resale buyer get full exchange privileges?" The answer confirmed once you pay the initiation fee "will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits."  Then what are they referring to when they describe "special benefits." (that you may not receive as a resale buyer)  I was told that referred to trading Vacation Club Points (or DC Points) for Marriott Rewards points.  For that reason they discuss: "Some Special Benefits may be provided by independent third parties and Exchange Company expressly disclaims responsibility for the acts or omissions of any persons or entities providing such Special Benefits." 

I'm wondering if this all makes sense-- That Seadog was probably sounding a false alarm, but the governing documents make a (probably minor) distinction between those who buy points from the developer and those who buy resale.  That distinction (or "special benefit") probably has nothing to do with anything other being able to trade DC points for MR points. Has that been the experience of resale buyers?


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## brigechols (Jun 25, 2015)

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> didn't we have a sales rep before that was candid and was a well respected member of TUG?  Worked for Marriott then Disney?  Or vice versa?
> 
> ...



Yes, his user name is Fletch.


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## jont (Jun 25, 2015)

GregT said:


> I don't think we should take swipes at SeaDoc, but conversely, I wish SeaDoc had been forthcoming about his relationship to Marriott, instead of inviting us to use our contacts at Marriott.  It appears disingenuous, however I hope he stays on TUG and comes out of the closet.   It would be interesting to have a sales rep who posted their opinions on the board, and candid and accurate statements could be valuable.
> 
> As an example, imagine how the dialogue would have changed if SeaDoc had said the following:
> 
> ...


Well said Greg!


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## Fasttr (Jun 25, 2015)

DavidBr said:


> When I specifically asked the question (asked both owner services and owner modification department) "does a resale buyer get full exchange privileges?" The answer confirmed once you pay the initiation fee "will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits."  Then what are they referring to when they describe "special benefits." (that you may not receive as a resale buyer)  I was told that referred to trading Vacation Club Points (or DC Points) for Marriott Rewards points.  For that reason they discuss: "Some Special Benefits may be provided by independent third parties and Exchange Company expressly disclaims responsibility for the acts or omissions of any persons or entities providing such Special Benefits."
> 
> I'm wondering if this all makes sense-- That Seadog was probably sounding a false alarm, but the governing documents make a (probably minor) distinction between those who buy points from the developer and those who buy resale.  That distinction (or "special benefit") probably has nothing to do with anything other being able to trade DC points for MR points. Has that been the experience of resale buyers?



Special Benefits as per the Exchange Docs are.....



> Special Benefits mean special products, services, benefits, and vacation/recreational experiences offered by Exchange Company, including, without limitation, the ability to reserve hotel accommodations, cruises, other travel services, and to receive Single Use Points. The ability to utilize a Special Benefit may not be available to all Members including, specifically, Members who are entitled only to Base Exchange Benefits. If Special Benefits are available and a Member is eligible to purchase or utilize any Special Benefits, separate terms and conditions shall apply to the purchase and use of such Special Benefits.



I take that to mean they *could* exclude resale points from benefitting from the offerings currently known as the Explorer Collection if they wanted to.


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## scpoidog (Jun 25, 2015)

*Incompetent sales rep?*



SeaDoc said:


> As a pediatrician I work with kids to prevent needless suicides because they get bashed on Social Media.  Thankfully, as an adult I have the emotional stability to brush it off as 'mob mentality'.  All I did was to present a fact to this website that I learned from another owner who had purchased points on the open market.  It was based on truth, and all I did was to request that those who have purchased points on the open market corroborate its validity.
> 
> Ironically, your own rules of posting state the following:
> 
> ...



If you do work for Marriott and only recently found out something from another owner, do you really need anyone else to confirm this with Marriott contacts?  You are either being less than truthful or are incompetent.   Which is it?


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## dioxide45 (Jun 25, 2015)

I think though that the OP was trying to maintain a cover to appear to only be an owner. Sure it would be great to have a sales rep here to bounce things off of. However, any sales rep that indicates they are such would not really be able to post in many ways as it could be seen as responding in an official capacity. Something very likely that would be a violation of MVCI social networking and/or internet policy. MVCI really could provide an official correspondent to TUG, but they chose not to. They do seem to respond to specific issues privately if people post concerns here, but they never provide any public response.

I don't think so many people would have been bothered by the question from the OP if we were not asked if "I am certain one of our fellow 'tuggrs' have contacts in MVCI who can confirm this" was not said. Obviously a sales rep should have answers and be able to possibly give us a definitive answer. However that would have blown the cover.

Interestingly the OP never responded to information posted that is from the written exchange documents. While in legalese, it is the official answer and would really mean more than something you are told by a sales rep or a front line VOA.

It does seem that the only thing they can limit is Special Benefits, but it seems that at least to date that they are not preventing resale owners from trading for MR points or utilizing the Explorer Collection or Cruise offers.

While the OP continues to maintain that their question was in good faith, IMO it was something more just to try and stir the pot so he and the rest of his sales buddies can have a good chuckle on us...


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## Fairwinds (Jun 25, 2015)

scpoidog said:


> If you do work for Marriott and only recently found out something from another owner, do you really need anyone else to confirm his with Marriott contacts?  You are either being less than truthful or are incompetent.   Which is it?



Exactly. 
Planting doubt through innuendo that promotes buying direct from Marriott while not identifying yourself as a company representative is wrong. As a sales rep it's more his responsibility to know the truth and report that based on fact. While I am happy with my vacation ownership one of the selling points was that I could sell it when I no longer needed or wanted it. If Marriott intentionally undermines the resale market then then it is contrary to what other sales people say. And I wager to say that Seadoc does not tell his prospective buyers that no one will buy their points in the future because they will be worthless or diminished in value.

Seadoc, instead of being incensed buy the distrust that you have caused, why not own the mistake, and come back to explain the fact of the matter based on your expertise as a sales rep and not on a rumor that you heard from a prospective buyer friend.


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## taffy19 (Jun 25, 2015)

brigechols said:


> Yes, his user name is Fletch.


I had totally forgotten about Fletch but remember it now when you mentioned his name. 

I was honestly under the impression that it wasn't allowed for Marriott salesmen or any other employee to participate here or in any other public Forum.  I wished I hadn't asked the question.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 26, 2015)

I appreciate that some think the comments here re SeaDoc's resume are out of line with respect to TUG Posting Rules.  After this post I'll be going back through the thread to edit/remove those comments, including the ones I made.

But that's where the edits should stop, IMO.  The OP has invited criticism and derision re his employment as a Marriott sales rep - not because he's a sales rep but because he has been disingenuous and duplicitous in his TUG posting history.  SeaDoc said it himself, "I never represented myself other than an owner, which I am ..."  If his posts to TUG had been related to only his experiences as an owner there wouldn't be a problem.  The problem exists because many of his posts were solely efforts to discourage readers from using the external resale market for Marriott products, in the same manner for which TUGgers criticize sales reps every day.  He has used the TUG forums to spread "typical" misrepresentations, innuendo and in a few instances, outright lies.  And when he's been called on those things by those of us whose experiences contradict what he posts, he's disappeared from the discussions.

Again, like SeaDoc says, which has already been acknowledged in this thread, the TUG Posting Rules do not prohibit posting by anybody employed in a timeshare business.  As has been mentioned, Fletch and certain other timeshare insiders post all the time without inviting any criticism.  In fact, their input is welcomed and has been as invaluable as anybody's when it comes to the timeshare education they've provided.  The difference being, they don't hide their motivation and they don't use scare tactics to hawk their products from behind a curtain.


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## Fasttr (Jun 26, 2015)

Can I suggest an edit to the title of the thread, something like...  [Salesman claims] Trust points bought externally......

At least it softens the claim when folks do searches and just read the title.


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## Wally3433 (Jun 26, 2015)

I think it's grotesque that the topic of this this discussion is even a question.  

Further, it's pathetic that there is not a definitive answer to that grotesque question from Marriott.

This is what makes timesharing sleazy, and the reason I feel embarrassed at times to admit that I own a timeshare.

I feel like I need to take a shower now that I have read this thread.


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## Beefnot (Jun 26, 2015)

Wally3433 said:


> I think it's grotesque that the topic of this this discussion is even a question.
> 
> Further, it's pathetic that there is not a definitive answer to that grotesque question from Marriott.
> 
> ...


 
What about the question is grotesque? Disingenuous, artificial, maybe, but not grotesque. Unless Marriott ever does to resale points what Diamond Resorts did. Oh man, and then there will be a lot more embarrassed owners than yourself.


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## Wally3433 (Jun 26, 2015)

It shouldn't be a question, that's what makes it grotesque.


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## tschwa2 (Jun 26, 2015)

My takeaway question which would be the one I would ask if I were so inclined to ask a Marriott contact would be: Are salespeople told to tell their assigned clients on the sales update that resales are marked " "Purchaser, Guarantor or Amenity User Only"  which means they have no right to reserve ownership weeks..."  with the further explanation that resale points have or will have access to trust inventory only " BUT DOES NOT HAVE ACCESS to deposited ownership weeks."


I would be very surprised if the explanation is correct or if that is the official explanation that sales should be giving out.

The snide disregard for actual experience to the contrary and the continued insistence that the explanation given during a sales meeting is correct unless confirmed by a higher up Marriott rep without disclosure to the OP's relationship with Marriott was what I found annoying, but not disgusting.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2015)

> SeaDoc said:
> 
> 
> > I just found out through a friend that bought 2500 points externally, paid all the 'bucket fees' and goes to a presentation and finds out he does not have the same rights as those that buy points through MVCI.  He has full access to all trust inventory, BUT DOES NOT HAVE ACCESS to deposited ownership weeks.  This is huge as it limits availability, especially to our existing properties with week owners that our depositing their weeks in the internal exchange for club points.  It will have less of an effect to new properties that will be coming on line, i.e. San Diego, Big Island Hawaii, and South Beach, Fl which will go directly into trust inventory.
> ...





SeaDoc said:


> As a pediatrician I work with kids to prevent needless suicides because they get bashed on Social Media.  Thankfully, as an adult I have the emotional stability to brush it off as 'mob mentality'.  All I did was to present a fact to this website that I learned from another owner who had purchased points on the open market.  It was based on truth, and all I did was to request that those who have purchased points on the open market corroborate its validity.
> 
> Ironically, your own rules of posting state the following:
> 
> ...



Looking back to the first post, I find the whole string of posts by SeaDoc more and more disturbing. Perhaps the attacks on his resume were not warranted and unfair, but I think that perhaps questioning his character was warranted. While it is admirable that SeaDoc has never posted as anything other than as an owner, THIS was one time that he should have posted as a sales rep. Was there ever a "friend" at a sales presentation? Where was the sales presentation. The original post seems like it is all fabricated to stir up trouble. Of course it did just that


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## Fairwinds (Jun 27, 2015)

"Not warranted / Unfair? I disagree.  I characterize his posts as dishonest, deceptive and subversive. Spreading rumor and enuendo about a program that he undoubtedly professes to be an expert in when speaking to potential buyers. This on a web site where many come to to research that same product when they are interested in purchasing it. I say that when you act in such manor you open yourself to all forms of scrutiny. One does not get to be dishonest and then call others bullies for questioning their honesty even when those questions extend beyond the original topic. And these posts have nothing to do with children or cyber bullying.


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## l0410z (Jun 27, 2015)

I posted the name of Brian Miller, Vp of marketing and sales previously.    No one mentioned they reached out to him.  I think I know  the format of the MVCI email domain unless there are multiple names in the company.   Btw, Brian is also on linked in for anyone to reach out too via linked in if you have the right linked in membership.  I have not nor am I thinking of purchasing resale points but I will reach out to get an answer unless someone PMs me for the email address.    I will go through the thread to net out a question (or someone can PM one if they want). 

Everyone must do their due diligence when purchasing. Tug is an excellent source of information as a collective group but any one person may not be.  It is the collective responses and experiences that are important.     Who the OP is, what he did previously, what he does or who is is representing....isn't this the challenge with social media in general? . I hope he might approach this differently next time but he deserves a break no matter what.  He has no impact on the real answer and shouldn't that be the focus if it is in question.  Sorry, but I think this thread is over the top on how he is being treated for what might be a  lapse of judgment.


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## Beefnot (Jun 27, 2015)

Yeah for real, this mob mentality is very unbecoming.


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## tlwmkw (Jun 27, 2015)

Interesting thread. I came in late so missed a lot of the deleted stuff but I have to say it seems to be a storm in a teacup. We all know that Marriott has been filling the trust with more and more weeks (there's a whole thread about what properties are in the trust), and many are from the older resorts, so even if they did limit exchanges (which they are clearly not doing at this time for resale points) then the underlying ownership is now so broad that I don't think it would be an issue. Legally they cannot limit access to properties owned by the trust so I wouldn't worry even if they did take these extreme measures. This sales guy clearly is stirring the pot and his excuse that he is "posting only as an owner" when the information he posts is something he should have more knowledge of as a sale person is dishonest. He should own up to this.

Jmho- tlwmkw


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## taterhed (Jun 27, 2015)

Wow.

This whole thread is a roller coaster ride. My opinions...


Greg had a great response. I think he hit it on the head.
If you're on the 'opposing team,' you need to proudly display your colors (e.g. admit you're a salesman...) and/or avoid controversial subjects and rumor mills. Massive fail on this one.
The internet is a powerful thing. If you look deep enough, you'll find all sorts of info....it's a very two edged sword.
Those who buy timeshares should be very very conscious of one thing: whether it's points, deed or units, one swipe of the legal pen can wipe the value of your investment (sic...) to zero or worse. One change of laws, one new points system, one assessment, one hurricane....etc.
Caveat emptor sums it up for me.

But, I still seem to be hooked on it. 

I think the one take-away from this read is this: Marriott point resales are generating some attention. That means they have value and could be modified, restricted or see a big $$$ increase in the future. Let' see, it's gone from zero to $3K in just 5 years? You be the judge.

I still love TUG.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 27, 2015)

Beefnot said:


> Yeah for real, this mob mentality is very unbecoming.



So is the behavior that SeaDoc engaged in here on TUG, of misrepresenting the external resale product so as to encourage sales of the same product direct from the developer, the same product that he sells for the developer.

The known majority opinion on TUG is that at least some developer sales reps are stereotypically shady in their dealings. Why do you call it a mob mentality for us to criticize a sales rep here who has been exactly that, while you've been known to participate in other threads where sales reps are roundly lambasted by as many or more TUGgers?


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## Ty1on (Jun 27, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> So is the behavior that SeaDoc engaged in here on TUG, of misrepresenting the external resale product so as to encourage sales of the same product direct from the developer, the same product that he sells for the developer.
> 
> The known majority opinion on TUG is that at least some developer sales reps are stereotypically shady in their dealings. Why do you call it a mob mentality for us to criticize a sales rep here who has been exactly that, while you've been known to participate in other threads where sales reps are roundly lambasted by as many or more TUGgers?



Exactly, and I won't rehash the resume thing, but lying seems to be a characteristic qualification for Sales Rep positions.


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## jimf41 (Jun 27, 2015)

I do not agree that lying is a qualification for career in sales. Nor do I concur that most MVC sales reps are liars as is often alluded to on this board. I've had three F/T sales jobs very early in my working career. I did a couple of summers as a Fuller Brush sales rep, two years with RJ Reynolds and about five with Procter & Gamble.

None of these companies encouraged lying to their customers. In fact you could get easily terminated if you did. The latter two I went to in-house sales training courses and the biggest thing I came away with was that if a customer doesn't trust you they won't buy from you. Honesty and sincerity were characteristics that they prized in a sales rep.

That said most sales reps will always emphasize the positive and downplay the negative. In 2006 I bought a very expensive european sports car. While the rep emphasized the sleek lines and handling characteristics he seemed to neglect to tell me that in order to change the spark plugs you had to remove four bolts and drop the hinged front grille to access them or that the dealership charged about $80 for an oil change.

IMO what the OP did was vastly different than a little emphasis here or there.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 27, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> I do not agree that lying is a qualification for career in sales. Nor do I concur that most MVC sales reps are liars as is often alluded to on this board. I've had three F/T sales jobs very early in my working career. I did a couple of summers as a Fuller Brush sales rep, two years with RJ Reynolds and about five with Procter & Gamble.
> 
> None of these companies encouraged lying to their customers. In fact you could get easily terminated if you did. The latter two I went to in-house sales training courses and the biggest thing I came away with was that if a customer doesn't trust you they won't buy from you. Honesty and sincerity were characteristics that they prized in a sales rep.
> 
> That said most sales reps will always emphasize the positive and downplay the negative. In 2006 I bought a very expensive european sports car. While the rep emphasized the sleek lines and handling characteristics he seemed to neglect to tell me that in order to change the spark plugs you had to remove four bolts and drop the hinged front grille to access them or that the dealership charged about $80 for an oil change.



I'm going to stay out of the critique of SeaDoc's posts, but did want to say I agree 100% with what jimf41 wrote above. Too often people categorize statements made by salesmen as "lies" (and they often do this to politicians as well), when in many cases, all that salesman is doing is trying to focus on the positives of their product or position, or putting a positive "spin" on whatever they are selling. That is their job. It's not their job to tell you where their product comes up short vis-a-vis their competition - that's the buyer's job to talk to the competitors or do whatever research of their own they need to do to sort the facts from the spin.

Yes, I agree that sometimes in their eagerness to sell or argue their point, some may cross that line from "spin" to "lies", but I don't think that really happens as much as some think it does.


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## taterhed (Jun 27, 2015)

In all fairness:

Out of my 3 sales presentations.... (including Marriott)

Nobody lied.  Overpromised?  yes.  Lied--no.
Nobody tried to cheat me
I was given time to 'think and talk about it'
Marriott--in particular--tried to be brutally honest about the product and offered me the 'best deal' in about 30 mins or less.

When asked however, all tried to discourage resales to the limit of of the law.  If I was not educated about TS (thanks TUG) I would have taken the 'must buy from developer' pitch hook, line and sinker.

I'm sure there are very, very bad examples out there though.  Thank goodness I haven't met them in person.


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## tlwmkw (Jun 27, 2015)

Still think this is a lot of fuss over nothing.
Bottom line is that they have not cut off exchanges for resale points BUT even if they do the trust now owns at so many resorts that it wouldn't really cause a problem. The only thing any of us really own is the right to stay one week at our home resort during our designated season- anything else can be taken away by Marriott. They haven't stopped resale weeks owners from exchanging so why would anyone think they will stop points owners?
Seadoc obviously has "some 'splainin to do" about the way he represents himself- "hey guys I just heard from a fellow owner" is not how to start a post if you are a sales person at MVCI. His knowledge about company policy should be better than that and he should own up to it- he knows that what he alludes to isn't true and he should admit it. He may not be allowed to respond further if corporate have heard what he is up to but we will see if he does reply.
I know a few Marriotts (not directly I involved in the running of the business) and they take the rep of the company very seriously because it is their family name- wonder how they would feel about this sort of thing?
tlwmkw


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## Beefnot (Jun 27, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> So is the behavior that SeaDoc engaged in here on TUG, of misrepresenting the external resale product so as to encourage sales of the same product direct from the developer, the same product that he sells for the developer.
> 
> The known majority opinion on TUG is that at least some developer sales reps are stereotypically shady in their dealings. Why do you call it a mob mentality for us to criticize a sales rep here who has been exactly that, while you've been known to participate in other threads where sales reps are roundly lambasted by as many or more TUGgers?



That's a shadowboxing argument. You're debating yourself apparently. I never said that SeaDoc's behavior was acceptable. I will answer your question with a question. Do you as a TUG moderator find the cynical and twisted personal attacks in response to SeaDoc's behavior acceptable? Or if he was not an MVC sales person, what would be your position?


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## SueDonJ (Jun 27, 2015)

Beefnot said:


> That's a shadowboxing argument. You're debating yourself apparently. I never said that SeaDoc's behavior was acceptable. I will answer your question with a question. Do you as a TUG moderator find the cynical and twisted personal attacks in response to SeaDoc's behavior acceptable? Or if he was not an MVC sales person, what would be your position?



As a moderator I edited out the extraneous remarks pertaining to SeaDoc's resume when it was pointed out, correctly, that they had nothing to do with the topic and could be construed in violation of the posting rules.  That should be enough to tell you that as a moderator I'm concerned, even when I'm personally invested, with the overall tone of TUG.

Aside from that, no, I don't have a problem with SeaDoc being called out for his duplicitous use of TUG.  Whether folks choose to correlate that with his character isn't for me to say or police.

I'll continue to watch the thread for other remarks which also may be in violation of the TUG Posting Rules but you are certainly free, as is any reader, to ask the other mods/Admin to also review this thread.  It's easy enough, simply click on the "Report Post" icon over there <---- under my name.  If a report comes through I'll be sure to let the other mods/Admin know that their input will be appreciated by all of us.


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## Fairwinds (Jun 27, 2015)

Beefnot said:


> That's a shadowboxing argument. You're debating yourself apparently. I never said that SeaDoc's behavior was acceptable. I will answer your question with a question. Do you as a TUG moderator find the cynical and twisted personal attacks in response to SeaDoc's behavior acceptable? Or if he was not an MVC sales person, what would be your position?



If by cynical you mean that I believe that the OP was "motivated by self-interest" and that I am "distrustful of his sincerity or integrity"

Ok


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## Beefnot (Jun 28, 2015)

Fairwinds said:


> If by cynical you mean that I believe that the OP was "motivated by self-interest" and that I am "distrustful of his sincerity or integrity"
> 
> Ok



No real disagreement from me if the cynicism is focused on his representations of information and himself on this thread and on TUG, a la the Dioxide approach. However when the cynicism is extended toward his entire resume and his psyche in a particularly vicious manner, repeatedly and publicly, I find that particularly spiteful and distasteful. None of us would wish for that type of treatment on a public forum.


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## Fairwinds (Jun 28, 2015)

Ok, but if someone misrepresents thier professional position on one public forum why are their other representations of themself on other public forums not open to scrutiny? Particularly when those representations are in many ways peculiar. They may be true but I don't believe them and do question them. And if that offends the OP then he shouldn't misrepresent himself here. Perhaps though this forum was not the place to do it and the moderator fixed that.


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