# Hello!



## rick398 (Jul 29, 2011)

I've been looking into timeshares (on and off) for a number of years now. We've got three kids and feel that they are old enough to make some decent vacations a worthwhile family experience. Looking at the current state of the market, it seems like it would be a good time to pick up a timeshare. 

I've done the developer sales pitch thing, and actually purchased an EOY week at a Ron Jon's in Florida. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed after having a couple of days to think abut the purchase we exercised our recission rights. Than last year, we attended a DVC pitch for no reason other than the gift cards they offered us. Plus it was hot and the kids would get a chance to play in an air conditioned room while we sat through the pitch. Oh and they bumped us up to the front of the line on a ride, and gave me a hat to replace the one I left on a ride! The only affect the meeting had on us was to plant the idea of getting a timeshare into our minds again!

So I've been reading (and reading!) and watching eBay and perusing the board here at TUG (which I have lurked at on and off for years!) and Have talked to a couple of friends who have timeshares. I feel like I'm almost ready to ask some intelligent questions to help guide a purchase. 

My first thought was to look into the Wyndham system, but it is looking like that wouldn't be our best option. We live in Buffalo,NY and while we enjoyed our Disney vacations (and will go back!) we feel the majority of our vacations will be spent within a days drive (airfare for 5!) and it didn't seem as if Wyndham would get that done.

So I began to focus on RCI Points, but in reading on the board here I have some reservations as it appears to not have a good number of kid friendly availability.  

So now we are looking for suggestions as to where to search next. Any ideas are appreciated. 

Thank you all so much!!


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## glypnirsgirl (Jul 29, 2011)

Hi Rick! And welcome to TUG. I am glad to see that you are starting out slowly. 

One of the best resources is on the reviews tab. There, you can sort the resorts by region, then by state. It gives you a pretty quick idea of some of the resorts that you mayhave never heard of.

Then ask questions of owners to get their feedback. 

If you see something that you like, check the rental boards and see if you can rent a unity to "try it on" before purchasing. 

I went through that process (minus the renting - which I didn't know about back then) to find a couple of the resorts that I own. 

You might ask yourselves what type of place you enjoy vacationing - beach, lake, mountains, historical, urban, etc. Then how far you are willing to drive. What type of amenities you would enjoy. 

Then, what type of membership. If you are wanting something difficult to get into like one of the eastern beaches in July, you might want a fixed week to insure that you get the vacation that you want.

By then, you should have a pretty good idea of where you would want to purchase. Then comes the thrill of the hunt. 

It is a wonderful adventure!

elaine


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## Conan (Jul 29, 2011)

Just to get you started, here's the big picture for timeshares as I see it.

Whether you buy a fixed week, a floating week, or a bunch of points in a points system, it's reasonable to spend between $500 and $1,500 (including closing costs) for the use of a two-bedroom unit, at least one week per year. Ideally the week you own should be something you'll use personally once in a while and within driving distance but that may not be practical unless you're ready to drive many hours from Buffalo. 

An equally good timeshare strategy would be to own a week that can be rented at a profit in years when you don't want to exchange and travel. A fixed summer week in Cape Cod, Myrtle Beach or a few other high demand places should be rentable or, if deposited in RCI Weeks, should draw enough TP points to be able to trade for the highest demand single week, or two weeks in lower demand locations.

Ideally, maintenance should be not more than $700 per year, but I'd be OK paying up to $900 to maintain a place that can be rented for ~$1,200 or deposited for at least 50 TP points or 90,000 RCI Points. (The Wyndham equivalent would be about 275,000 points but you won't get that without paying about $1,300 a year in maintenance.)

Excluding Wyndham and taking the high side of the above numbers, and if you exchange rather than use or rent what you own, that comes to:
$1,500 to purchase + $900 to maintain + $189 per exchange fee

Spreading the purchase over ten years, the math is
$150 + $900 + $189 = $1,239 or $177/night for a one week exchange, or
$150 + $900 + $189 + $189 = $1,428 or $102/night for two weeks.

There are two big downsides
--Those costs come every year, and grow at least with inflation over time, and your $1,500 investment is more likely to shrink than grow;
--And to get the best exchanges, you need to be comfortable reserving your vacation between 10 months and two years in advance.

We're happy with timeshares mainly because we're willing to spend that much, we're used to staying in condo-type suites rather than typical hotel rooms, and we like being forced to make those plans and take those vacations. So for example I'm already committed to staying at nice places in St. Martin in March, 2013 and in Mexico in May, 2013, even though non-timeshare people might find that a little crazy.


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## theo (Jul 29, 2011)

*My $0.02 worth...*



rick398 said:


> I've been looking into timeshares (on and off) for a number of years now. We've got three kids and feel that they are old enough to make some decent vacations a worthwhile family experience. Looking at the current state of the market, it seems like it would be a good time to pick up a timeshare.....So now we are looking for suggestions as to where to search next. Any ideas are appreciated.



The ages of your offspring are not identified in your post, but assuming that all of them are of school age, my own first reaction is to say "rent --- don't buy". With young children, vacation time availability will be constrained and defined by school vacation time periods for years to come.  

Yes, resale prices may well be very low in this economy, but remember that maintenance fees are forever (...and remember too that those fees move in no other direction than up). 

It's not as though you ever really gain "equity" in a timeshare purchase, so please don't "justify" any purchase as being a good "financial" investment. Pre-planned vacations yes, but not an investment on which there will be much (if any) "return" if/when you later decide to sell. You can always have decent family vacations (...including at timeshare facilities) without the obligations of actual "timeshare ownership".  

I don't mean to sound "negative". I own, use and enjoy a significant number of timeshare weeks myself and have done so for many years now. God willing, I'll continue to do so for many more. That said however, your situation with (presumably) young children is very different. In short, my advice and opinion remain 
"*rent, don't buy*".  

P.S. I almost always use what I own and only very rarely do I ever rent out any of my weeks, so please don't think that my input above is the self-interest viewpoint of a profit-seeking "landlord" --- it isn't.


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## yumdrey (Jul 29, 2011)

*Timeshare can save money for big family*

Like OP, I have three kids. All of them are school ages, which means we can travel only during holiday season - long weekend, summer & winter break, Thanksgiving and spring (or easter) break.
These weeks are hard to rent for similar to maintenance fees. Always paid much more premium when rented. 
When third baby was born, we needed an extra room, one hotel room or 1BR timeshare unit was no longer an option for us.
Since I purchased TS (most of my TS are 2BRs or larger), I could save money for accommodations, and also could save money for meals.

Back to OP's question:
Buy where you can use the most. Eastcoast is within driving distance. If you (and your family) like beach during summer, buy VA beach, Ocean City, Cape Cod or Maine coast during peak (summer) season. Summer weeks in these locations would trade very well in case you want to exchange.
If you don't mind driving more, put Myrtle Beach and Hilton Head Island on your list. 
If your kids love Orlando, you can buy DVC, Hilton or Marriott. 
You can use Autotrain for less than 5 persons flight cost + car rental during holiday season if you reserve well in advance. Drive to Washington D.C, get autotrain, you will arrive in Orlando next morning.

And don't think you will keep your TS forever. You need to (and will) change your portfolio as your kids are growing up.
Two of my kids are going to college next year, then I don't need a 2BR anymore. Maybe I will pick several cheap studio units and dump my 2BR units. Maybe I will dump my exchangers and buy several more where I can use each year.
So don't consider too far ahead at this time, think where/when your family would go for the next 5-7 years or so.


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## rick398 (Jul 29, 2011)

Thanks for your help, it seems some more info is needed from me I guess. Kids are 11,9, &5. Since I'm a teacher, the school vacation schedule is king not only for now but for the foreseeable future.  I believe a 2BR is the way to go for us, I can't see cramming everyone into one room for a week. 

With the kids, destinations with a theme park are good, but we like to sightsee as well. Fishing, swimming, hiking are also activities we enjoy. Places with things to do and see would be a good way to generalize.

Looking to the next 5-10 years, I can see probably 2-3 Disney trips in that time period. The suggestion for VA Beach, Cape Cod, or Maine coast is actually in line with what I was considering to look for. Orlando wouldn't be bad, DVC sounds interesting, but I hear DVC is a bit of a hassle to work with. I'd like to have something that I can use to trade into DVC when we do go to Disney.


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## rick398 (Jul 29, 2011)

theo said:


> T
> It's not as though you ever really gain "equity" in a timeshare purchase, so please don't "justify" any purchase as being a good "financial" investment. Pre-planned vacations yes, but not an investment on which there will be much (if any) "return" if/when you later decide to sell. You can always have decent family vacations (...including at timeshare facilities) without the obligations of actual "timeshare ownership".



I completely understand that there is no financial equity in a timeshare, and it is not an investment opportunity. That is not my intent. I have a couple of friends who own timeshares, and have talked to them for information as well as bringing my questions to TUG. 

My wife is a planner. No, I mean a PLANNER. Having ONLY 10 months might be a hindrance to her!


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## glypnirsgirl (Jul 29, 2011)

rick398 said:


> Thanks for your help, it seems some more info is needed from me I guess. Kids are 11,9, &5. Since I'm a teacher, the school vacation schedule is king not only for now but for the foreseeable future.  I believe a 2BR is the way to go for us, I can't see cramming everyone into one room for a week.
> 
> With the kids, destinations with a theme park are good, but we like to sightsee as well. Fishing, swimming, hiking are also activities we enjoy. Places with things to do and see would be a good way to generalize.
> 
> Looking to the next 5-10 years, I can see probably 2-3 Disney trips in that time period. The suggestion for VA Beach, Cape Cod, or Maine coast is actually in line with what I was considering to look for. Orlando wouldn't be bad, DVC sounds interesting, but I hear DVC is a bit of a hassle to work with. I'd like to have something that I can use to trade into DVC when we do go to Disney.



I own DVC and find it to be the least hassle of any of my timeshares. The maintenance fees have held pretty steady. Booking timelines are very clear. And if you want to be traveling in the summer, you want a March through June UY - I think that people that get the wrong use year may find it a hassle. I just call and book at 11 months in advance. I usually call or look on line and figure out what the booking window is for when i want to go. If you cancel more than 30 days out, there is no problem, points just go into the same UY they came from. If you cancel within 30 days, the points are usable but ONLY 6 months in adv advance rather than 11 (if I remember correctly - I have never cancelled less than 90 days in advance).

I own DVC to use DVC. I also own a couple of traders to trade into DVC - but I have the luxury of going during shoulder seasons - September, October and May. 

Having said all that, I think with a family of 5 that some place in Cape Cod or along the Jersey shore may make good sense for you. Some place that you would really enjoy.

There are very few timeshares that are really close to where you live - I keep on trying to find one that is close to Niagara Falls and Carriage House is the closest that I have come. 

Have you started reading reviews yet? That was one of my favorite parts when I first joined TUG. I played timeshare wishbook with the review section.

elaine


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## rick398 (Jul 29, 2011)

Hah! Yes, I've been reading reviews! Every time an ebay ad catches my eye I'll jump here and check out the review on it (if there is one!) or look for threads on it.

My friends who have ts' both have them in Fla, and one in particular told me he's only been there once in the 10+ years he's had it, he just trades all the time. His is in Ft. Lauderdale. That is kinda why I lean toward something that would be a good trader. I've also read the "points are points" opinions, and while there are advantages to having a home resort as a "home base" of sorts, I can see the basis of "points are points."

Nice to hear the positive take on DVC too. Might be worth considering after all. Does owning DVC to stay there a few times and trade the rest make sense?


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## raptor78 (Jul 31, 2011)

rick398 said:


> Hah! Yes, I've been reading reviews! Every time an ebay ad catches my eye I'll jump here and check out the review on it (if there is one!) or look for threads on it.
> 
> My friends who have ts' both have them in Fla, and one in particular told me he's only been there once in the 10+ years he's had it, he just trades all the time. His is in Ft. Lauderdale. That is kinda why I lean toward something that would be a good trader. I've also read the "points are points" opinions, and while there are advantages to having a home resort as a "home base" of sorts, I can see the basis of "points are points."
> 
> Nice to hear the positive take on DVC too. Might be worth considering after all. Does owning DVC to stay there a few times and trade the rest make sense?



Points are points, with a couple of key exceptions...

You hear people say "buy where you want to stay" -- remember, home resorts generally have an advance reservation period (ARP) that is greater than the normal reservations -- Wyndham for example, 13 months ARP at your home resort...  So, Florida is a great example -- if you are a Disney type family and you want to hit Disney frequently, you may have a slightly higher struggle grabbing high demand weeks/peak weeks, since folks with home resorts at that Orlando properties will have a small advantage on you for renting -- thus if you want to travel to Florida frequently, you should consider ownership there -- same would be true for any other property out there...

The home resort being put aside, the "points is points" concept is true -- with Maintenance Fees (MF) being the variable -- lower MF means lower annual cost...  I bought point at South Shore, Lake Tahoe, as the MF were some of the lowest.  While Tahoe is a quite a distance from Kansas, I wouldn't mind the drive there to use my points if I couldn't exchange into something I would prefer.  For me, Tahoe was kinda the best of both worlds -- something I don't mind staying at and something that was cheaper on MF.  To be honest though, I don't know when I'll stay at Tahoe, as I intend to use my points at other properties...  But I am also already looking at some smaller contracts at other properties where I might want to frequent more often, thus using my ARP to get earlier reservations...

Dunno, if that helps -- but there are my two cents -- Oh and kid wise -- I have one, but I almost always have my older nephews (early 20's) a couple of my son's friends (young-teens) with us on our trips  -- we love the extended road trips, gives us more opportunities to stop and visit other sites to and from our vacation spot...  And with regards to school schedules -- honestly , just remember, you are the parent, they are the school -- I think giving your kids the chance to travel with you is just as valuable as the time they spend in class..  Don't let school schedules preclude you from taking vacations -- the greatest thing I ever did was start taking my son with me on nearly all of my business trips -- I would add an extra day on the end to spend just with him doing something fun and it gave me an excuse to not go run around at night with colleagues and go back to the room to hang with him or get out and see the sites...  Started doing that when he was 8 and have done so every year since -- again, just my two cents, your results may vary 

Mike


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## raptor78 (Jul 31, 2011)

rick398 said:


> Nice to hear the positive take on DVC too. Might be worth considering after all. Does owning DVC to stay there a few times and trade the rest make sense?



Regarding DVC -- Other can weigh in, but here is my experience...

I love Disney, everything Disney - I'd love to move to Lake Buena Vista if I could   Alright, going overboard here 

That being said, I have looked at DVC for YEARS -- nearly every 6 months I Google and look at resales...

What I have found, due to Disney's ROFR keeping resale prices at a fair market, unless you plan to do Disney every year, its better to trade into it or grab a non-Disney property -- I am sure you can use it every other year and rent the off-year, but looking at the numbers, it looks you would break-even at best - the amount of risk/return is so slim on DVC --

Though if you go every year and it becomes a family tradition to do Disney annually, with Florida, California, Hawaii, Hilton Head, or whatever, if you do something Disney annually, then you can come out ahead -- Simpler program, low MF, etc -- all big pluses -- check on program changes before buying resale -- I heard they stole a few features away through resale, though I think most of those could be made up through buying some points in another TS system -- Only thing you might lose would be Disney Cruise lines -- Someone with more DVC experience and knowledge of the recent changes can weigh in on any consequences of DVC resale vs direct and whether it really matter or not...

Mike


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## ampaholic (Jul 31, 2011)

raptor78 said:


> Points are points, with a couple of key exceptions...
> 
> You hear people say "buy where you want to stay" -- remember, home resorts generally have an advance reservation period (ARP) that is greater than the normal reservations -- Wyndham for example, 13 months ARP at your home resort...  So, Florida is a great example -- if you are a Disney type family and you want to hit Disney frequently, you may have a slightly higher struggle grabbing high demand weeks/peak weeks, since folks with home resorts at that Orlando properties will have a small advantage on you for renting -- thus if you want to travel to Florida frequently, you should consider ownership there -- same would be true for any other property out there...
> 
> ...



Just remember if you like to trade into Disney - don't buy RCI Points within 35 miles of the magic kingdom or you'll be locked out.


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## capjak (Jul 31, 2011)

rick398 said:


> Nice to hear the positive take on DVC too. Might be worth considering after all. Does owning DVC to stay there a few times and trade the rest make sense?



I own DVC and really like it for DVC properties.  I would not trade it, it is too expensive to trade.  It is much easier to rent to someone (there are several sites that do this) and take the cash for other vacations.

I bought Starwood and Marriott to supplement DVC.  I really like both of those systems as well but Starwood, like DVC has high maintenance fees.  I like marriott for staying and trading, works for me.

I would not buy DVC unless you intend to go there at least every other year.  You can trade it but there are very few resorts that I would say are on an equal level as DVC (for theme etc.) there are just too many great timeshares that trade as well and are much cheaper.

So if you buy DVC buy resale and buy enough points to stay there every other year (of course now DVC is in California, Hawaii, Hilton head island and Vero beach) in the room and time period you intend to go and buy another one for other places and trading.

the "DIS board" has tons of DVC experts so go there and research.


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## rick398 (Aug 1, 2011)

raptor78 said:


> Points are points, with a couple of key exceptions...
> 
> You hear people say "buy where you want to stay" -- remember, home resorts generally have an advance reservation period (ARP) that is greater than the normal reservations -- Wyndham for example, 13 months ARP at your home resort...  So, Florida is a great example -- if you are a Disney type family and you want to hit Disney frequently, you may have a slightly higher struggle grabbing high demand weeks/peak weeks, since folks with home resorts at that Orlando properties will have a small advantage on you for renting -- thus if you want to travel to Florida frequently, you should consider ownership there -- same would be true for any other property out there...
> 
> The home resort being put aside, the "points is points" concept is true -- with Maintenance Fees (MF) being the variable -- lower MF means lower annual cost...  I bought point at South Shore, Lake Tahoe, as the MF were some of the lowest.  While Tahoe is a quite a distance from Kansas, I wouldn't mind the drive there to use my points if I couldn't exchange into something I would prefer.  For me, Tahoe was kinda the best of both worlds -- something I don't mind staying at and something that was cheaper on MF.  To be honest though, I don't know when I'll stay at Tahoe, as I intend to use my points at other properties...  But I am also already looking at some smaller contracts at other properties where I might want to frequent more often, thus using my ARP to get earlier reservations...



Good stuff! Thanks!



> Don't let school schedules preclude you from taking vacations
> Mike



No choice, I'm a teacher by trade, so I pretty much have to live by the school schedule!


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## rick398 (Aug 1, 2011)

capjak said:


> I would not buy DVC unless you intend to go there at least every other year.  You can trade it but there are very few resorts that I would say are on an equal level as DVC (for theme etc.) there are just too many great timeshares that trade as well and are much cheaper.




Pretty much where I'm at at this point. I don't see us getting there every other year, more likely every third or fourth year. DVC is probably not a good option to buy into. 

As note though, gotta make sure what I get is more than 35 miles from DW so I use the points for DVC.

Is Ft. Lauderdale a good option?


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## chalee94 (Aug 1, 2011)

rick398 said:


> Nice to hear the positive take on DVC too. Might be worth considering after all. Does owning DVC to stay there a few times and trade the rest make sense?



as others have said, no this really isn't a good idea.  buy DVC just for DVC stays.  otherwise, just rent or trade to stay in a DVC resort...


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## tnlewis (Aug 1, 2011)

> My first thought was to look into the Wyndham system, but it is looking like that wouldn't be our best option. We live in Buffalo,NY and while we enjoyed our Disney vacations (and will go back!) we feel the majority of our vacations will be spent within a days drive (airfare for 5!) and it didn't seem as if Wyndham would get that done.



The more I read, the more it sounds that Wyndham could be a good fit.  There are many resorts within driving distance and Bonnet Creek is within the Disney grounds, plus, they come with an RCI membership and trade very well.  

I own at Disney and LOVE it, in fact, I just bought resale points at Disney Hilton Head so I can book there in the summer months (difficult to get in unless you own)...

I also just went into contract for a Wyndham Sedona UDI.  MF/$61 month and only $450 investment for closing costs.  I will use this primarily for off season trips or trade...

Tug has been amazing in helping me do the research and also in making the decision to buy Wyndham resale and extra Disney resale points.  

By the way, Disney is a breeze to work with!  Love them!


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## rick398 (Aug 2, 2011)

tnlewis said:


> The more I read, the more it sounds that Wyndham could be a good fit.  There are many resorts within driving distance and Bonnet Creek is within the Disney grounds, plus, they come with an RCI membership and trade very well.



Really? I thought I read somewhere "buy Wyndham to stay at Wyndham" implying that the RCI trade power wasn't as good. Then again, I've read so much, it all runs together sometimes!


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## KellyGirl (Aug 2, 2011)

Forgive me if I'm wrong since I am a newbie myself but Wyndham Bonnet Creek would be too close, i.e. within 35 mile rule of being locked out....I have friends who own Wyndham in Daytona Beach but that is not within a days drive of Buffalo, NY for your family of 5 if you are still thinking about that aspect.

My family is similar to yours, we'd like to visit Disney every 3 years or so and have young kids, ages 2 and 10 so need to keep the school schedule top of mind. Although I have taken my 10 year old out for a week twice now and it hasn't been a problem since she doesn't miss a lot of school and her grades are excellent. We have visited Disney during school breaks and all parks were so crowded we said "never again" so we'll try to go during Summer. In fact we were just there two weeks after the 4th of July and hardly had wait times for rides/exhibits, etc. At any rate your kids ages sound perfect for Jersey or Maryland shores. I'd first research how well those areas would work for trades whether it's Disney or somewhere else.
Good luck and I'll continue to watch this tread and keep learning! I'm trying to figure out if I own a fixed week (vs. points) at a particular resort can I change the week at the same resort - easily w/no fees.


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## lukesimons77 (Aug 2, 2011)

For me, just for me, timeshare is not good. But it's up to you if you are more comfortable with that. It's just I want something more than timeshare.


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## Rascalsmom (Aug 2, 2011)

*Uh-Oh!*



ampaholic said:


> Just remember if you like to trade into Disney - don't buy RCI Points within 35 miles of the magic kingdom or you'll be locked out.



I just got a low-cost Sheraton Vistana to use for trading... Weeks, not points.  Will I get "locked out" somehow by RCI?


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## chalee94 (Aug 2, 2011)

Rascalsmom said:


> I just got a low-cost Sheraton Vistana to use for trading... Weeks, not points.  Will I get "locked out" somehow by RCI?



right. you won't be able to trade that for DVC.

trading for other stuff is probably fine (although i think you'd generally be better off trading it in II.)


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## rick398 (Aug 2, 2011)

KellyGirl said:


> Forgive me if I'm wrong since I am a newbie myself but Wyndham Bonnet Creek would be too close, i.e. within 35 mile rule of being locked out....I have friends who own Wyndham in Daytona Beach but that is not within a days drive of Buffalo, NY for your family of 5 if you are still thinking about that aspect.



My understanding is that RCI points that are converted from Wyndham are the exception to the lockout rule. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.



> My family is similar to yours, we'd like to visit Disney every 3 years or so and have young kids, ages 2 and 10 so need to keep the school schedule top of mind. Although I have taken my 10 year old out for a week twice now and it hasn't been a problem since she doesn't miss a lot of school and her grades are excellent. We have visited Disney during school breaks and all parks were so crowded we said "never again" so we'll try to go during Summer. In fact we were just there two weeks after the 4th of July and hardly had wait times for rides/exhibits, etc. At any rate your kids ages sound perfect for Jersey or Maryland shores. I'd first research how well those areas would work for trades whether it's Disney or somewhere else.
> Good luck and I'll continue to watch this tread and keep learning! I'm trying to figure out if I own a fixed week (vs. points) at a particular resort can I change the week at the same resort - easily w/no fees.



As a teacher, taking a week out of the school year is not a possibility for me, let alone the kids. We've found that the last week of August is pretty good in terms of crowd size. Schools here don't start until after Labor Day, so we can squeeze that week in. Disney has been running a promotion in the past that gives you a free meal plan with a resort stay starting in late August, and we've taken advantage of that a couple of times. 

We're in no hurry to pick something up, so we are still watching and learning, but if a great deal falls into our laps, we'd probably move on it.


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## Cary (Aug 21, 2011)

My wife and I just purchased a prime spring/summer/memorial week timeshare at Breezy Point, Minnesota earlier this year for only $400. We wanted to use the week and agreed to pay the maintenance fee and also the closing cost. This was done for less than $1,000 total. We found this prime week here on the "TUG" Bargain board. One of the reasons we jumped on this was because we over the last 20 years have been on this prime Minnesota resort and liked it for all the things you can do, plus the 2 bedroom unit was located on a golf course and attached to 3 other units log cabin style. We used the week this year before we even got the transfer papers and loved the week we spent in the unit. It is also a excellent rental unit should we decide not to use it. We chose not to participate in RCI's exchange program. We prefer deeded weeks to points. The seller of the week was happy to sell and we were eager buyers. A win win for the both of us because of the bargain board here at TUG.


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