# WKORV-N&S Emergency Assessment [Retroactive Taxes]



## Henry M.

Just got the following e-mail from the HOA:



> Ocean Resort Villas Vacation Owners Association
> June 24, 2016
> 
> Dear Ocean Resort Villas North Owner:
> 
> Your Board of Directors would like to update you on a very important matter that our Association is facing. Two weeks ago, the Association received an increased assessment for real property taxes for the years 2006, 2007 and 2008. These taxes had previously been paid by the Association in the respective tax year.                   In an unprecedented maneuver we believe to be retaliatory to our current lawsuit, the County of Maui reopened the tax rolls for those years, changed the methodology used to assess the units and sent the Association a new tax bill. When the taxes were originally assessed, the units were valued on a land plus construction cost basis. The County is retroactively assessing the units using a market value methodology, increasing the real property taxes by an additional $6,879,537.
> 
> The Board of Directors is fully engaged and resolute in defending the rights of the Association. We will pursue all reasonably available legal and administrative remedies. Accordingly, we filed tax appeals with the County of Maui last week and will be filing in Hawaiian Circuit Court in the near future.
> 
> Despite our formal notices of appeal, the tax bill is due in full today. If the Association fails to pay the tax, it will be subject to a 10 percent penalty and interest at a rate of one percent per month until paid in full. The Association’s legal counsel has asked the County of Maui for an extension and postponement of the due date of the tax payment, as this liability places an onerous burden on the Association and its Owners. The County of Maui has denied the request, and the Association will pay the taxes under protest to avoid the substantial penalty. The payment of the contested tax assessment will remain in an escrow account which neither the Association nor the County of Maui may access until the appeal is resolved.
> 
> There are very few alternatives available to the Association to fund the huge budgetary deficit created by this current tax assessment. The Association is unable to use funds set aside in its replacement reserve account as reserve funds are restricted by law and are to be used only for items within our capital reserve plan. The Association is unable to borrow the funds as its ability to borrow is limited and its line of credit is much less than the tax bill. Unfortunately, the only viable option to pay the tax bill and fund the corresponding large budgetary deficit is to levy an emergency special assessment on all Owners.
> 
> The Board has approved an emergency special assessment in the per unit week amount of $389.25 for a One Bedroom, $461.35 for a Two Bedroom Lockoff and $635.71 for a Two Bedroom Lockoff Deluxe. Owners of Biennial or Every-Other-Year interests will be assessed one-half of the amount. Bills for the special assessment will be mailed shortly and will be due thirty (30) days from the date of mailing. Real property taxes are a common expense of the Association and are allocated according to the Declaration. Even though these tax bills are for previous years, it is a new liability that all current Owners share as a common expense regardless of when you purchased your vacation ownership interest. All Owners of record as of June 17, 2016 are responsible for the special assessment.
> 
> The Board of Directors is developing supplemental strategies and will update you and provide additional guidance as these events continue to unfold. We appreciate your understanding and support as we continue our legal battle against the County of Maui for fair and equitable tax treatment on behalf of all Owners.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Ocean Resort Villas Vacation Owners Association Board of Directors



Should be interesting how this all plays out. Maui County sure is resorting to extortionary tactics.


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## Tradetimes

If the maintenance fee go up like this...the resale value will be zero in couple of years!


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## tomandrobin

Ouch! 

Sucks to be a WKORV owner today.


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## DeniseM

Tradetimes said:


> If the maintenance fee go up like this...the resale value will be zero in couple of years!



This is not the maintenance fee - this is property tax.


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## DeniseM

I'm on vacation, but as soon as I get a chance I will find the contact info. for the board of supervisors, for Tuggers who would like to express their opinion on this issue.



> Dear Ocean Resort Villas *North* Owner:



Question - this appears to have been levied against the North phase.  Are South phase owners being sent a SA Bill as well?

(I'm a south phase owner, and I got the email as well.)


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## Ken555

Yet another reason why I would never own a timeshare in Maui. Happy to visit, but will not own.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## pathways25

*Assessment for WKORVN*

I believe the letter posted by emuyshondt was for WKORV even though it's addressed to North owners.



> Ocean Resort Villas North Vacation Owners Association
> June 24, 2016
> 
> Dear Ocean Resort Villas North Owner:
> 
> Your Board of Directors would like to update you on a very important matter that our Association is facing. Two weeks ago, the Association received an increased assessment for real property taxes for 2008. These taxes had previously been paid by the Association in the respective tax year. In an unprecedented maneuver we believe to be retaliatory to our current lawsuit, the County of Maui reopened the tax rolls for that year, changed the methodology used to assess the units and sent the Association a new tax bill. When the taxes were originally assessed, the units were valued on a land plus construction cost basis. The County is retroactively assessing the units using a market value methodology, increasing the real property taxes by an additional $3,849,204.
> 
> The Board of Directors is fully engaged and resolute in defending the rights of the Association. We will pursue all reasonably available legal and administrative remedies. Accordingly, we filed tax appeals with the County of Maui last week and will be filing in Hawaiian Circuit Court in the near future.
> 
> Despite our formal notices of appeal, the tax bill is due in full today. If the Association fails to pay the tax, it will be subject to a 10 percent penalty and interest at a rate of one percent per month until paid in full. The Association’s legal counsel has asked the County of Maui for an extension and postponement of the due date of the tax payment, as this liability places an onerous burden on the Association and its Owners. The County of Maui has denied the request, and the Association will pay the taxes under protest to avoid the substantial penalty. The payment of the contested tax assessment will remain in an escrow account which neither the Association nor the County of Maui may access until the appeal is resolved.
> 
> There are very few alternatives available to the Association to fund the huge budgetary deficit created by this current tax assessment. The Association is unable to use funds set aside in its replacement reserve account as reserve funds are restricted by law and are to be used only for items within our capital reserve plan. The Association is unable to borrow the funds as its ability to borrow is limited and its line of credit is much less than the tax bill. Unfortunately, the only viable option to pay the tax bill and fund the corresponding large budgetary deficit is to levy an emergency special assessment on all Owners.
> 
> The Board has approved an emergency special assessment in the per unit week amount of $289.69. Owners of Biennial or Every-Other-Year interests will be assessed one-half of the amount. Bills for the special assessment will be mailed shortly and will be due thirty (30) days from the date of mailing. Real property taxes are a common expense of the Association and are allocated according to the Declaration. Even though this tax bill is for a previous year, it is a new liability that all current Owners share as a common expense regardless of when you purchased your vacation ownership interest. All Owners of record as of June 17, 2016 are responsible for the special assessment.
> 
> The Board of Directors is developing supplemental strategies and will update you and provide additional guidance as these events continue to unfold. We appreciate your understanding and support as we continue our legal battle against the County of Maui for fair and equitable tax treatment on behalf of all Owners.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Ocean Resort Villas North Vacation Owners Association Board of Directors


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## rog2867

pathways25 said:


> I believe the letter posted by emuyshondt was for WKORV even though it's addressed to North owners.



I am an owner of the villas not north and I got the letter.   Going to cost me $230 for every other year 2bdrm lock off, not a big deal but sucks.  Maui is ridiculous...


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## Denise L

We own at WKORV and also got the letter addressed to North.  Does anyone know if it for both properties?


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## DeniseM

Maui County Council Members and contact info:

http://mauicounty.us/councilmembers/

Mike White - Council Chair
Email: mike.white@mauicounty.us

Don S. Guzman, Council Vice-Chair
Email: don.guzman@mauicounty.us

Michael P. Victorino - Presiding Officer Pro Tempore
Email: michael.victorino@mauicounty.us

Gladys C. Baisa, Councilmember
Email: gladys.baisa@mauicounty.us

Robert Carroll, Councilmember
Email: robert.carroll@mauicounty.us

Elle Cochran, Council Member
Email: elle.cochran@mauicounty.us

Don Couch, Council Member
Email: don.couch@mauicounty.us

Stacy Crivello, Council Member
Email: stacy.crivello@mauicounty.us

Riki Hokama, Council Member (Chair of the Budget and Finance Committee.)
Email: riki.hokama@mauicounty.us

Kalana O Maui Building
200 South High St.
Eighth Floor
Wailuku, Hawaii 96793


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## undrpar64

I believe it is for both properties as I received two emails.  Although both were addressed to North owners, the taxes are assessed on all three types of properties(1 bdrm., 2 bdrm. and 2 bdrm deluxe).  Only the South has all three configurations.  Since it wqas addressed to the North I am assuming that property is included.


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## YYJMSP

tomandrobin said:


> Ouch!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sucks to be a WKORV owner today.





Yuck.  We own at both...



Is that amount to cover all three years, or is that per year?



Why is this only for those three specific years?  What's to stop them from reassessing every year after 2008 using their new formula?



Should we be expecting more SA's to cover the following seven years?


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## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> This is not the maintenance fee - this is property tax.



Property taxes are paid in our MFs - $636 for a 2 Bd Dlx!
That is 20% increase against current MFs

sadly, looks like this could be our last year owning WKORV


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## PamMo

There are two separate emails. WKORV is stuck with an additional $6,879,537 tax bill for 2006, 2007, and 2008 revised assessments, and WKORVN has to pay an extra $3,849,204 for 2008.

 We didn't even own during those years, but still have to pay!!!


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## wannagotoo

I wonder if this "assessment" is being applied to other timeshare units being built at the same time.


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## DavidnRobin

I just sent a scathing email to above - not that they will give a crap.
I suggest everyone else does as well.


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## DeniseM

DavidnRobin said:


> Property taxes are paid in our MFs



I don't see anything that indicates that our yearly maintenance fee bills will increase - this is a separate special assessment, so it's inaccurate to call this a maintenance fee increase, which would indicate an on-going increase, not a one time SA.


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## Scott & Laura

This raises a conundrum    Westin, as the developer, owned a number of timeshares and since the taxes are retroactive to those years  it begets question Who pays--current association members or retroactive to the years owners

Here is an article on tax issue from last year still being wrangled over

http://www.mauinews.com/page/conten...ers--seek-lower-property-tax-rate.html?nav=10


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## PamMo

Scott & Laura said:


> This raises a conundrum    Westin, as the developer, owned a number of timeshares and since the taxes are retroactive to those years  it begets question Who pays--current association members or retroactive to the years owners



Current owners. All of our weeks are resale purchases after 2008, but we are getting billed for this special assessment.


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## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> I don't see anything that indicates that our yearly maintenance fee bills will increase - this is a separate special assessment, so it's inaccurate to call this a maintenance fee increase, which would indicate an on-going increase, not a one time SA.



I follow this is a SA, but it goes to our annual fees no matter how you cut it.
If they are taking care of this tax burden with a SA, then the following MFs will be impacted with new tax rate.  Same-Same.  The Ad Valorem tax as part of our MF is impacted - this is a fee increase regardless of where or what it is called, OR when it is imposed.

If the tax holds - this will be an ~$200 increase (for OFD) in MF per year in property taxes alone.  Why do i feel this way - because it they get away with it once - then they will do it again.


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## canesfan

*WKORV Emergency Assessment [Retroactive Taxes]*

It appears it's North & South. I got two emails, one labeled for each property. This is a huge hit! I hope they fight this all the way, even though they have our money :/


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## DeniseM

*WKORV Emergency Assessment [Retroactive Taxes]*

David - that is not what the letter says.  The letter says the tax increase is retro to 2007, 2008, 2009 - not ongoing.

The op said the resort would have no resale value because the maintenance fee was going up - that is not accurate.  The MF is not going up


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## triangulum33

This is total BS.  A broke local gov't extorting money out of property owners.  What if counties around the country did this to homeowners?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> David - that is not what the letter says.  The letter says the tax increase is retro to 2007, 2008, 2009 - not ongoing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Check back in 2017/2018... then you can tell me this had no MF impact going forward. If history is indicative - as well as other current issues - these tax increases will not end until people decide not to vacation in Maui.

In the meantime - I have already emailed Maui board - take action - have you?

Personally, I am considering selling my OFD - and foregoing Maui vacations. Unfortunately I have already rented my OFD studio usage for 2017 - so I have a little time for fall-out.  I love our OFD villa, but not this much.


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## blondietink

I'm sorry for all the current owners getting stuck with this new tax bill that is retroactive.  However, I do own a home in New York State, and our yearly tax bill is based on the current assessed value of my house.  My brother, who lives in California, pays his taxes on the original purchase price of the home which was a new construction.  In neither case is the tax bill based on the original land and construction costs.  So, I'm not seeing that Maui County is being out of line basing the taxes on assessed value.  I do know that Maui County has tried some shady things in the past with property taxes, but this does seem out of line considering they are going back so many years, and up to 10 years ago.  Is there a statue of limitations anyone? Also I feel the demand to pay with only a 2 week notice is outrageous.  

Note to self:  Never buy property, timeshare or otherwise, in Hawaii.


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## Living the Dream

DavidnRobin said:


> I just sent a scathing email to above - not that they will give a crap.
> I suggest everyone else does as well.




The only way they will 'give a crap" is if we hit their pocket books.  Would love to know who on this board has a local business that caters to tourists.  Then organize a boycott.  Or, pick a business to boycott.  Get other time share owners to participate.   This is the only way to get their attention.

Tourism is the largest part of their economy.  And we are easy marks as nobody is a resident that votes for these people. The easiest tax to pass is one that doesn't directly affect the voters.   The only vote we have is with our pocketbooks.

Bob


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## triangulum33

They want to change the tax bill going forward - thats one thing.   To go back retroactively to change the way its calculated, after everyone has made financial decisions, or in many cases never even owned a unit, is sneaky and mean.  
Its like a drug addict scrounging around for money to fund their habit.

How is this legal?


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## YYJMSP

DavidnRobin said:


> I follow this is a SA, but it goes to our annual fees no matter how you cut it.
> If they are taking care of this tax burden with a SA, then the following MFs will be impacted with new tax rate.  Same-Same.  The Ad Valorem tax as part of our MF is impacted - this is a fee increase regardless of where or what it is called, OR when it is imposed.
> 
> If the tax holds - this will be an ~$200 increase (for OFD) in MF per year in property taxes alone.  Why do i feel this way - because it they get away with it once - then they will do it again.



My concern is that they will retroactively do the same to 2009-2016, so 8x$200/yr = $1600 more for the deluxe units in another SA, and then every new year will be $200 more than the current levels...


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## YYJMSP

PamMo said:


> We didn't even own during those years, but still have to pay!!!



If this follows any sense of fairness, I would think that you the current owner should be able to go back to the previous owner(s) to get them to pay their share as this is a shortfall in taxes, and part of the sale agreement should have been that all taxes were current, etc.

Whether that is easy to do or not is the problem...


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## YYJMSP

wannagotoo said:


> I wonder if this "assessment" is being applied to other timeshare units being built at the same time.



I would hope so! 

If we're being singled out (as the email from Vistana suggests) wouldn't that be grounds for getting this thrown out?


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## triangulum33

Hate mail sent.


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## Ken555

triangulum33 said:


> They want to change the tax bill going forward - thats one thing.   To go back retroactively to change the way its calculated, after everyone has made financial decisions, or in many cases never even owned a unit, is sneaky and mean.
> 
> Its like a drug addict scrounging around for money to fund their habit.
> 
> 
> 
> How is this legal?





Exactly. I wish I could retroactively charge clients similarly...oh, sorry guys, I forgot to charge you an extra $250 each year for a few years six years ago and now you must pay up. And, you have two weeks to pay.

FWIW, even though I don't own in Hawaii, I have spoken with several locals about the timeshare tax assessment being much higher as a percentage than other temporary accommodations, much less condos, in general they weren't aware of it.


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## Scott & Laura

Maui isn't broke they are facing same thing that all governments and States face

Expectations that vastly require more money than what Tax payers are willing to pay for. Maui like everyone else seeks to get taxes from anyone who is unable to change the outcome of an election. Nationally they incur debt that grand kids are saddled with to pay for  to cover benefits we want today.    i.e. They are taking money from the third generation without their permission---most places call that theft--in the US its called deficit spending.

Maui board members want to get elected so by sticking Timeshare owners with large taxes they know that many will sell but in order to sell someone else willing to pay will buy. If they charge Hotel people that they wont come.

They are politicians looking to themselves and to keep local taxes down.

Scott


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## Negma

As an owner only of the north property I received my letter today


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## The Haileys

Dang ... now I kinda wish they'd talked us into converting our WKORV EOY to annual Flex ... :annoyed:

Geez, the hubby is going to have a fit.


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## canesfan

*WKORV Emergency Assessment [Retroactive Taxes]*

I just hope they don't open up 2009 - forward. Between the 2 properties to owe almost $1000 hurts the budget enough. If they reassess 2009 forward, that will be brutal.

Just the news I want to hear a week before we are set to leave for Maui. It's the last place I want to spend more of my money right now.


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## VacationForever

My last trip to Maui was 2 years ago.  Between the unfriendly staff at Westin Kaanapali and the most run down and dirty airport that I have experienced in the US, we have no desire to return.

Now, if only more travellers to Maui feel the way I do, tourists dollars will drop and maybe they will treat timeshare owners better.


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## LisaRex

I don't get the hatred that County of Maui has towards timeshare owners.  Unfortunately, the pissing contest that Starwood (now VSE) entered into with the County of Maui is, of course, hurting the little guy.  

Also, I wonder why, if the taxes are due today, why the HOA didn't communicate any of this to the owners before now. 

Glad I sold, but am in solidarity with all of you in your disgust.


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## LisaRex

YYJMSP said:


> If this follows any sense of fairness, I would think that you the current owner should be able to go back to the previous owner(s) to get them to pay their share as this is a shortfall in taxes, and part of the sale agreement should have been that all taxes were current, etc.
> 
> Whether that is easy to do or not is the problem...



You're assuming VSE has kept track of former owners. What percentage of owners have moved since they sold WKORV? Do you think that the HOA has the funds to hire investigators to track these people down so that they can try and extract money out of them?  Secondly, and most importantly, what idiot would pay this SA when VSE's remedy for non-payment of SAs, per their own contract, is to lock you out of your unit? 

Well, okay, go ahead and lock me out of WKORV-N, which I owned from 2007-2012.  You'll get another $700 out of me over my dead body. 

I hate to be harsh, but one of the MANY reasons I sold WKORV was because the county of Maui was obviously targeting timeshare owners with a grossly unfair tax burden.  Screw 'em.


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## LisaH

blondietink said:


> Note to self:  Never buy property, timeshare or otherwise, in Hawaii.



Not all islands are as nuts as Maui. We own a townhouse on Oahu within the Ko Olina resort community. Our annual tax bill is less than $1500.

Sorry for all the WKORV owners. This is REDICULOUS.


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## LisaRex

IIRC, both Oahu and Kauai have made moves in the direction that Maui went, by splitting timeshares into their own classification.


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## labonnevie

DavidnRobin said:


> I just sent a scathing email to above - not that they will give a crap.
> I suggest everyone else does as well.



Could you post a few key points that you included, so we can do likewise?


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## labonnevie

DeniseM said:


> Maui County Council Members and contact info:
> 
> http://mauicounty.us/councilmembers/
> 
> Mike White - Council Chair
> Email: mike.white@mauicounty.us
> 
> Don S. Guzman, Council Vice-Chair
> Email: don.guzman@mauicounty.us
> 
> Michael P. Victorino - Presiding Officer Pro Tempore
> Email: michael.victorino@mauicounty.us
> 
> Gladys C. Baisa, Councilmember
> Email: gladys.baisa@mauicounty.us
> 
> Robert Carroll, Councilmember
> Email: robert.carroll@mauicounty.us
> 
> Elle Cochran, Council Member
> Email: elle.cochran@mauicounty.us
> 
> Don Couch, Council Member
> Email: don.couch@mauicounty.us
> 
> Stacy Crivello, Council Member
> Email: stacy.crivello@mauicounty.us
> 
> Riki Hokama, Council Member (Chair of the Budget and Finance Committee.)
> Email: riki.hokama@mauicounty.us
> 
> Kalana O Maui Building
> 200 South High St.
> Eighth Floor
> Wailuku, Hawaii 96793



Elle Cochran is the council member for west Maui and her Facebook page is:
https://www.facebook.com/ellecochran/timeline

we may want to tell her we do not feel welcome in her area and spending our money with her constituents' businesses

Mike White has a Mike White for County Council Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/Friends.Mike.White/

as does Don Guzman:
https://www.facebook.com/Don-S-Guzman-for-Maui-County-Council-241491652574080/

A few key talking points for our letters/posts would be helpful.


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## triangulum33

Thank you labonnevie.  I posted my feelings on their FB pages.  Not that it will matter.


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## YYJMSP

LisaRex said:


> You're assuming VSE has kept track of former owners. What percentage of owners have moved since they sold WKORV? Do you think that the HOA has the funds to hire investigators to track these people down so that they can try and extract money out of them?  Secondly, and most importantly, what idiot would pay this SA when VSE's remedy for non-payment of SAs, per their own contract, is to lock you out of your unit?
> 
> Well, okay, go ahead and lock me out of WKORV-N, which I owned from 2007-2012.  You'll get another $700 out of me over my dead body.
> 
> I hate to be harsh, but one of the MANY reasons I sold WKORV was because the county of Maui was obviously targeting timeshare owners with a grossly unfair tax burden.  Screw 'em.



VSE isn't party to your contract with the previous owner.  There is no reason for them to go after someone else, they are going to look to you to pay the whole bill, or they will take action against you.

So, you're stuck paying the whole bill now.  Not really any different from having to pay a share of the overall MF delinquencies (which I suspect may be the next wave of this if everyone doesn't pay their share now) for something you don't even own.

In theory, you know who you bought your unit from.  You could go after them (small claims?) for breach of contract to get the portion of the taxes prior to your taking ownership.  They could in turn go after the previous owner, etc, etc.

Not suggesting it's easy or desirable.  I suspect most people will not bother and just get stuck with paying more than they have to.  But if I was someone who bought resale just now, and get stuck with back taxes from 2006 onwards (which is what I suspect will happen in time), I would try to get back whatever I could...


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## VacationForever

YYJMSP said:


> VSE isn't party to your contract with the previous owner.  There is no reason for them to go after someone else, they are going to look to you to pay the whole bill, or they will take action against you.
> 
> So, you're stuck paying the whole bill now.  Not really any different from having to pay a share of the overall MF delinquencies (which I suspect may be the next wave of this if everyone doesn't pay their share now) for something you don't even own.
> 
> In theory, you know who you bought your unit from.  You could go after them (small claims?) for breach of contract to get the portion of the taxes prior to your taking ownership.  They could in turn go after the previous owner, etc, etc.
> 
> Not suggesting it's easy or desirable.  I suspect most people will not bother and just get stuck with paying more than they have to.  But if I was someone who bought resale just now, and get stuck with back taxes from 2006 onwards (which is what I suspect will happen in time), I would try to get back whatever I could...



There is no breach of contract.  The contract was that all outstanding liabilities were paid.  This is a new liability that was not in existence at the time the timeshare sale was transacted.


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## vacationtime1

Living the Dream said:


> The only way they will 'give a crap" is if we hit their pocket books.  Would love to know who on this board has a local business that caters to tourists.  Then organize a boycott.  Or, pick a business to boycott.  Get other time share owners to participate.   This is the only way to get their attention.
> 
> Tourism is the largest part of their economy.  And we are easy marks as nobody is a resident that votes for these people. The easiest tax to pass is one that doesn't directly affect the voters.   The only vote we have is with our pocketbooks.
> 
> Bob



I will let them know that our next Maui trip will be restaurant-less.  And copy Duke's, Pacific-O's, Mama's, etc. so they know what their elected officials are doing -- to them.

The concept being that we will spend "X" dollars on a Maui trip, and if it has to go to property taxes, there is less to spend on other things.


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## Helios

sptung said:


> There is no breach of contract.  The contract was that all outstanding liabilities were paid.  This is a new liability that was not in existence at the time the timeshare sale was transacted.



Agree, it can't be bridge of contract for something that happened after the fact.  I think the previous owners should pay the retroactive taxes, but would they?  I don't think so. 

Could title insurance hep here (for whoever got it)?


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## dioxide45

Assessments are due when billed by the association. It really doesn't matter if the assessment is because of a leaky roof that has leaked for years or taxes from years ago. The current owner is responsible. Also consider that taxes are often paid in arrears. So this year, some homeowners are paying 2014 or 2015 tax years. So they may not be going back as far as one might think.


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## EliteMember

emuyshondt said:


> Just got the following e-mail from the HOA:
> 
> 
> 
> Should be interesting how this all plays out. Maui County sure is resorting to extortionary tactics.


With this new tax assessment the maintenance fee for North has now DOUBLED since it was built 8 years ago to over $3K/week for a 1BR+lockoff.  We could not go this year, tried to sell our week during prime-time family vacation in August and received no offers that would even cover our annual maintenance fee.  If you look online you can find units rented by owners or from Westin unsold inventory for less than the yearly fees -- let alone amortizing the upfront "investment". It makes the purchase of a Westin/Vistana Maui timeshare a total ripoff now.  I feel ashamed having recommended the SVO program to friends and family in the past.  Caveat Emptor!


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## taterhed

On a lighter note....

If anyone is so 'sick and tired' of their WKORV/N condo, I'll be delighted to accept the unit for free and pay those nasty assessments.

Especially for OV or OF units.  

jk..jk.

It's only money.


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## dioxide45

Living the Dream said:


> The only way they will 'give a crap" is if we hit their pocket books.  Would love to know who on this board has a local business that caters to tourists.  Then organize a boycott.  Or, pick a business to boycott.  Get other time share owners to participate.   This is the only way to get their attention.
> 
> Tourism is the largest part of their economy.  And we are easy marks as nobody is a resident that votes for these people. The easiest tax to pass is one that doesn't directly affect the voters.   The only vote we have is with our pocketbooks.
> 
> Bob



Not sure if you are talking about the timeshare BOD or the Maui County counsel members? It wouldn't help to target a boycott against any of the BOD members of WKORV homeowners association. They are just passing the bill on to the owners. Now it may be helpful to target counsel members of Maui County.

Ultimately this will continue until people stop coming, which so far doesn't seem to be diminishing for Maui.


----------



## VacationForever

Does anyone know if this tax reaassessment also applies to Marriott and other timeshares in Maui, or that they were already calculated based on market value?


----------



## dioxide45

sptung said:


> Does anyone know if this tax reaassessment also applies to Marriott and other timeshares in Maui, or that they were already calculated based on market value?



I was wondering the same thing. Did any other developers join WKORV in their lawsuit against Maui County?


----------



## Helios

sptung said:


> Does anyone know if this tax reaassessment also applies to Marriott and other timeshares in Maui, or that they were already calculated based on market value?



I though that would be the case.  But now that I think about it, not necessarily. I don't own in Maui, but I am worried about my Marriott Ko Olina and Hilton Kingsland units.


----------



## Helios

On a related note, how often are Special Assesments assessed?  I have owned TS for 12 years (several of them with multiple companies) and I have never been hit.


----------



## bogey21

In today's environment it may be better to rent than own.   The upside is that you have no dollars invested and don't bet blindsided with things like this.  The downside is that it is likely more difficult and possibly more expensive to get the Weeks you want at the locations you want.  

George


----------



## Henry M.

I've owned WKORV since before they opened and there has never been a special assessment before. They have been good about planning for refurbishments and the like. This blindside from Maui County is not something that you could plan for.


----------



## Fredm

dioxide45 said:


> Assessments are due when billed by the association. It really doesn't matter if the assessment is because of a leaky roof that has leaked for years or taxes from years ago. The current owner is responsible. Also consider that taxes are often paid in arrears. So this year, some homeowners are paying 2014 or 2015 tax years. So they may not be going back as far as one might think.



Exactly right. Owners of record as of June 17 are responsible for this assessment.

 The outstanding and unanswered question is the ultimate disposition of the funds collected IF the HOA wins the appeal. The funds will be held in escrow pending the outcome of the lawsuit.

Will the owners receive the money back, or will the collected assessment just go to the HOA's account for future budgetary application?
AND, if returned to the owners, will the funds be returned to the owner who actually paid them? Or, the owner of record on the date the appeal is won? 
It is certain that some owners who will pay this assessment will not be an owner when the issue is resolved.


----------



## Helios

emuyshondt said:


> I've owned WKORV since before they opened and there has never been a special assessment before. They have been good about planning for refurbishments and the like. This blindside from Maui County is not something that you could plan for.



Do you remember what was your MF the first year and what is it now?  Just curious.


----------



## Helios

Anyone knows how often or how many times did SVN assessed SAs?


----------



## GregT

moto x said:


> Do you remember what was your MF the first year and what is it now?  Just curious.



I can't answer related to WKORV but my first 3BR at Maui Ocean Club was $1,800 in 2007, and it's now $2,836.  We saw a huge jump in MFs in 2010 when the property tax methodology was revised.

Best,

Greg


----------



## Kapolei

Without getting into the specifics of this particular situation (as I know little about it), I would say that the issue of tax increases in Hawaii is always going to be a "when" rather than "if" going forward.

There are huge unfunded liabilities regarding pensions and government worker medical care.  Incomes for working class have not kept up with fast rising cost of living, so homelessness and economic dislocation is not going away.  And we are living on islands so everyone's plight is not easily ignored.

I am not saying you shouldn't organize or fight unfair taxation.  My point is that tax increases are coming and will continue to come.  And as tourists, you will be expected to contribute to more than just keeping the streets clean and having emergency services.  And it may seem or be unfair.

I divested myself of my Kauai timeshare in part because I don't like uncertainty and rising costs I have no control over.  My advice for anyone owning in Hawaii is to assume fees are going up significantly.  If you are ok with it, then enjoy it.  If not, then sell.

...


----------



## VacationForever

Kapolei said:


> Without getting into the specifics of this particular situation (as I know little about it), I would say that the issue of tax increases in Hawaii is always going to be a "when" rather than "if" going forward.
> 
> There are huge unfunded liabilities regarding pensions and government worker medical care.  Incomes for working class have not kept up with fast rising cost of living, so homelessness and economic dislocation is not going away.  And we are living on islands so everyone's plight is not easily ignored.
> 
> I am not saying you shouldn't organize or fight unfair taxation.  My point is that tax increases are coming and will continue to come.  And as tourists, you will be expected to contribute to more than just keeping the streets clean and having emergency services.  And it may seem or be unfair.
> 
> I divested myself of my Kauai timeshare in part because I don't like uncertainty and rising costs I have no control over.  My advice for anyone owning in Hawaii is to assume fees are going up significantly.  If you are ok with it, then enjoy it.  If not, then sell.
> 
> ...



On the issues that you listed above regarding unfunded liabilities, you can replace Hawaii with any of the other 49 states.  Every state is in the same situation.  It does not justify Maui to do this to tourists/timeshare owners.


----------



## larryallen

I almost bought at WKORV a few years ago and at the time the annual costs had gone up a lot within a few years, and if I recall it was because of property tax issues. I talked myself out of buying. I guess it's good as the annual cost is really a lot there and similar to what you can rent for.  Beyond that though, as someone else said above, what about the other years? Are those tax bills coming?  The value of the property probably skyrocketed about 2011-2012 so if the board didn't plan right I would think there could be a nasty tax bill coming. Lastly, why haven't I seen this problem on the Marriott board? Did the Marriott Maui board plan better?  It sucks for owners. I feel for you.


----------



## Kapolei

sptung said:


> .....  It does not justify Maui to do this to tourists/timeshare owners.



Of course the very unsatisfying answer is they do it ----- "because they can".


----------



## VacationForever

larryallen said:


> I almost bought at WKORV a few years ago and at the time the annual costs had gone up a lot within a few years, and if I recall it was because of property tax issues. I talked myself out of buying. I guess it's good as the annual cost is really a lot there and similar to what you can rent for.  Beyond that though, as someone else said above, what about the other years? Are those tax bills coming?  The value of the property probably skyrocketed about 2011-2012 so if the board didn't plan right I would think there could be a nasty tax bill coming. Lastly, why haven't I seen this problem on the Marriott board? Did the Marriott Maui board plan better?  It sucks for owners. I feel for you.



If you look at Greg's post above, it appears that tax valuation methodology was fixed after those 3 years and hence we are only seeing 3 years of "back taxes".  The question remains when will Marriott and other non-VSE owners in Maui get the same tax collection letters for the 3 years.


----------



## DeniseM

moto x said:


> Anyone knows how often or how many times did SVN assessed SAs?



About 7 years ago, SVR had a huge SA for renovations.  Owners were very unhappy.  This was not an emergency - it was just something that Starwood wanted to do, and the board complied.

About 5 years ago SDO raised the maintenance fees for renovations for "3 years," promising to lower the MF after renovations, and of course, did not lower it.  After the outcry at SVR, they spun this as a temporary maintenance fee increase, instead of a SA, but it was worse in the long run, because they never reduced the MF after renovations.

About the same time, the BOD at Villas of Cave Creek fired Starwood as their management company, because the BOD refused to agree to Starwoods demands for an increase in the MF for renovations, as they did at SDO.

Regarding original MF at WKORV - it was about $1,100 for an Ocean View 2 bdm.


----------



## kingjoey

*Not every state is in the same predicament*



sptung said:


> On the issues that you listed above regarding unfunded liabilities, you can replace Hawaii with any of the other 49 states.  Every state is in the same situation.  It does not justify Maui to do this to tourists/timeshare owners.



Not every state is in the same sorry situation. Wisconsin is not the greatest state for everything, but it is fully funded as far as pensions and retirement liabilities. Not to mention, my property taxes have gone down for the last 5 years. Thank you Governor Walker!! And, of course, we have the Packers!!


----------



## VacationForever

kingjoey said:


> Not every state is in the same sorry situation. Wisconsin is not the greatest state for everything, but it is fully funded as far as pensions and retirement liabilities. Not to mention, my property taxes have gone down for the last 5 years. Thank you Governor Walker!! And, of course, we have the Packers!!



Yes, I forgot.  Thanks for the reminder.  I forget sometimes about that as I live in CA and we are in deep doodoo and lacks the leadership to do what it takes to fix our budget problem.   Too many special interest groups (trying to be as PC as possible here).  Hats off to Governor Walker.  He has guts and has been able to pull it off.


----------



## Ken555

kingjoey said:


> Not every state is in the same sorry situation. Wisconsin is not the greatest state for everything, but it is fully funded as far as pensions and retirement liabilities. Not to mention, my property taxes have gone down for the last 5 years. Thank you Governor Walker!! And, of course, we have the Packers!!





Based on a median valued home in Wisconsin, according to projections, property taxes have reduced ~$127 in five years. Sorry, but that's not much to be excited about and, of course, you have to wonder (!) what isn't being paid in the State...now back to our regular programming...


----------



## Brerrabbit

blondietink said:


> My brother, who lives in California, pays his taxes on the original purchase price of the home which was a new construction.



In California, they passed Proposition 13 in 1978 which said that property taxes cannot be raised except when the owner sells the property.  That protects homeowners from this kind of thing.  The other 49 states should do the same thing.


----------



## Passepartout

Meanwhile, back to the subject of retroactive Hawaiian property taxes. 

Bless those Maui County 'Officials'. They sue know how to knock the wind out of the sails (sales) of Maui timeshare condos.

I wouldn't buy one of those already overpriced, over taxed properties there if for no other reason than I refuse to be a cash cow for local government who hike taxes just because they can- on people who are part-time residents and don't vote in the district.

Talk about "Taxation Without Representation." Shame on them!

Jim


----------



## VacationForever

Brerrabbit said:


> In California, they passed Proposition 13 in 1978 which said that property taxes cannot be raised except when the owner sells the property.  That protects homeowners from this kind of thing.  The other 49 states should do the same thing.



It is not as simple as that.  1% of original purchase price, with a cap increase of 2% per year.  When there is a downturn in the market, it takes 1% of the current appraised value and compares with the 1% of purchase price + 2% per year (compounded each year) to see which is lower.  Taxpayer pays the lower of the two.  

The issue is that most home owners pay more than the so called 1% (plus yearly increase) as new school bonds are almost always passed every year and added on to the existing property tax (collected on the same property tax bill).  Mello-Roos - a large/fixed amount is added new homes in newly developed areas  to fund new infrastructure - roads, fire dept, schools etc.  Some of the Mello-Roos have automatic increase set at 5% (compounded) every year and runs for 25 years or so.  Many home owners are now paying 1.5% of appraised value or 1%+2%compounded (old homes) and up to as much as 3-4% for smaller homes in newly developed areas.  

My old home that I just sold off 2 years ago, had property tax about 1.5% that included everything.  My current home in a new area, had all sorts of Mello-Roos (fixed for all homes) would run for about 2.5% had I not pay off in lump sum the largest Mello-Roos add-ons (a 25-year school bond) and I own a large home - Mello-Roos was the same regardless of size of home. I end up paying about 1.5% per year.  The smaller homes in my neighborhood are now paying about 4% of property values and they are very unhappy as the Mello Roos piece has an automatic 5% increase each year.

Mello-Roos and school bonds are used as a way to get around Prop 13.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Passepartout said:


> Meanwhile, back to the subject of retroactive Hawaiian property taxes.
> 
> Bless those Maui County 'Officials'. They sue know how to knock the wind out of the sails (sales) of Maui timeshare condos.
> 
> I wouldn't buy one of those already overpriced, over taxed properties there if for no other reason than I refuse to be a cash cow for local government who hike taxes just because they can- on people who are part-time residents and don't vote in the district.
> 
> Talk about "Taxation Without Representation." Shame on them!
> 
> Jim



I used the 'taxation w/o representation' point in my email to Maui Council - not that they care. If they continue to extend taxation penalties for TS owners in Maui - I will be selling my WKORV. I don't care about the $ loss. I consider it lost money anyway.


----------



## DeniseM

Dave (or anyone else who is paying the highest tax rate for a Deluxe unit) - Do you know off-hand how much you paid in taxes on your 2016 maintenance fee?


----------



## JudyS

vacationtime1 said:


> I will let them know that our next Maui trip will be restaurant-less.  And copy Duke's, Pacific-O's, Mama's, etc. so they know what their elected officials are doing -- to them.
> 
> The concept being that we will spend "X" dollars on a Maui trip, and if it has to go to property taxes, there is less to spend on other things.


I don't own in Hawaii, but if I did, I would do the exact same thing. I think this is an excellent idea and one of the few forms of leverage owners have. 

I would go further than saying, "If I have to pay $600 extra in taxes, I will spend $600 less while in Maui." Instead, I would say, "The Maui voters are exploiting timeshare owners. My only way to be treated fairly is to boycott all Maui business as completely as possible." You could then point out that your timeshare has a kitchen, and you plan to cook all your meals while on Maui.  But, I would go further than that. I know many visitors to Harborside bring frozen food from Omaha Steaks, and if you plan to do that, you could say so. You could also mention that you plan to avoid doing any gift shopping while on Maui. You could say that you will be doing cheaper activities (hiking rather than whale watching, say) than in the past. If you have receipts from past trips, enclosing them with your letters to local business would really help. If you paid with a credit card, your credit card account should have the receipts. 

For this to be most effective, it needs to be organized, with as many owners doing it as possible. Owners might want to contact VSE and ask for help contacting other owners. A Facebook group would also be good.


----------



## DeniseM

> "The Maui voters are exploiting timeshare owners.



I doubt if the Maui voters had any say on this - it was probably a unilateral decision by the Maui County  Council.


----------



## JudyS

LisaRex said:


> IIRC, both Oahu and Kauai have made moves in the direction that Maui went, by splitting timeshares into their own classification.


Do any other states treat timeshares as their own classification? And, do Tuggers anticipate similar problems in other states?  I have no idea if Florida plants to do anything like this, but they are very reliant on tourism and have many timeshares. If Florida did something like this, it would be really bad for timeshare owners. 

I know San Diego County, CA has a special "timeshare fee" as part of their taxes, but it is small -- $10, I think. I suspect it mostly helps offset the cost of billing timeshare owners for their taxes. (In California, timeshare owners pay taxes directly to the state, rather than through their HOA. I'm constantly getting letters saying things like "You street lighting assessment is going up by 42 cents a year." This has got to be a huge waste of government money.)


----------



## DeniseM

Can someone who owns Ocean Front Deluxe and is paying the highest tax rate please look at their 2016 maintenance fee bill and tell me what you paid for property taxes in 2016?  I believe it's listed as Ad Valorem tax.


----------



## Panzerman

*Not a surprise...*

Extra Taxes....increased maintenance fees every year....having to convert to points to retain your full benefits....higher RCI and II charges....charges for converting your week internally....paying many thousands for your week and not being able to go when you want....endless up charges at every turn.....

Timesharing is not a user friendly program when it comes to your money. It was different 20 years ago with Marriott and the high end companies. Now they have fallen in line with the rest of the industry to really get those Shekels out of your wallet.

Unless you are getting your week for $1 you are paying too much. And then ofttimes the yearly maintenance fee is still exorbitant. That goes for Marriott and the others also. I still follow the Timeshare industry as it has always interested me. But now all my vacations and adventures are booked thru VRBO or various other sites that have constant specials at bargain prices. I can't tell you the number of high end Timeshare properties we have stayed at for less than the yearly maintenance fee....and sometimes it even included the airfare.


----------



## labonnevie

*TAking some action*

I have just sent the following email to the Maui County Council Members and to the businesses included in the email. I also sent a shortened version to the Maui News Letters to the Editor:    http://64.66.125.244/vnr2/add_submission.asp?categoryID=769&publicationID=110

Yesterday I received notification from the Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Vacation Owners Association that I will soon be receiving a bill for a special assessment. This special assessment will pay for a RETROACTIVE increased assessment on my timeshare for real property taxes for the years 2006, 2007, and 2008! Taxes for these years had been paid in full in the respective tax years. The County of Maui RETROACTIVELY changed their assessment methodology and sent my Association a bill for $6.9 million! The bill was issued two weeks ago and required payment June 24th!
No one, not even a Maui County Council member, could accept this as being reasonable, fair, evenhanded or even rational. Of course, it must seem to Maui County Council members that timeshare owners are easy pickings for additional tax revenues. What, after all, can they do to protest? They can’t vote against the council members that voted for such actions and they can’t come to council meetings to demand fair treatment.  They really are just easy prey to be exploited.
I have been bringing my family to Maui annually since 1981. I have been a timeshare owner with Westin since 2005. We have always loved Maui, its natural beauty and warm people. Until now. 
So what can I do? Here is what I can and will do: we have always eaten every dinner and some lunches in local restaurants. Our favorites have included: Mama’s, Paia Fish Market, Da Kitchen, Aloha Mixed Plate, Pacific O, Merriman’s, Duke’s, Hula Grill, Gerard’s, Longhi’s, Leilani’s, Monkeypod and Nick’s.
This September we will NOT eat in any of these (or other) restaurants. Their loss will be Safeway’s gain. We will enjoy our home cooked meals beachfront at our timeshare. 
Oh, and no golf at Kapalua or Wailea. That will save me well over $1500, which will pay my special assessment about 5 times. I will vigorously urge my fellow timeshare owners to do likewise. I will also fully support my Association in taking every possible legal action to repeal this egregious and baseless act by Maui County.
With much Aloha.


----------



## Lansdowne

Same reason we sold our Maui property - we thought the MF including the taxes would only go up drastically. We traded the property to Westin as part of a deposit on another Westin timeshare. It is a shame that timeshare owners in Maui are treated this way - one of the best places to vacation. 

It will be interesting to see how many owners dump their property on the resell market now and who refuse to pay the additional expenses. Bet Vistana or whoever runs the new company will be trying to buy these up to preserve the value of the property - what a mess. Finally, no evidence that Maui will not reassess current tax years. Must be real tough trying to sell the new property.


----------



## DeniseM

Unfortunately, if you dump your Maui timeshare, VSE will just exercise ROFR on it, and re-sell it for full price.  They will be happy to take it off your hands and probably put it in the points program affiliated with WKORV-NN.


----------



## grgs

DeniseM said:


> About 5 years ago SDO raised the maintenance fees for renovations for "3 years," promising to lower the MF after renovations, and of course, did not lower it.



For the record: the 2016 SDO mf were a bit lower than 2015 ($1112.98 vs $1140.56).  For 2012, they were $986.06.  I didn't expect the mf to go back to 2012 levels, and was surprised that 2016 was actually lower than 2015.


----------



## DeniseM

Hi Glorian - Thank you for pointing that out.  I own an EOY 1 bdm., and the MF was only a few dollars difference, so it didn't really dawn on me that that might be a reduction after the renovations.  I will have to compare the two MF bills and see how they differ.


----------



## YYJMSP

DeniseM said:


> Can someone who owns Ocean Front Deluxe and is paying the highest tax rate please look at their 2016 maintenance fee bill and tell me what you paid for property taxes in 2016?  I believe it's listed as Ad Valorem tax.



No difference by view, just unit size.  For 2016:

WKORV
1BR = 0.06 + 262.83 = $262.89
2BR L/O = 0.08 + 311.52 = $311.60
2BR L/O Deluxe = 0.11 + 429.25 = $429.36

WKORVN
2BR L/O = 0.08 + 364.08 = $364.16

The property taxes are in two pieces (hence the two numbers), the tiny amount going through the "Master Association" and the larger amount going through the "Owners Association"


----------



## YYJMSP

moto x said:


> Do you remember what was your MF the first year and what is it now?  Just curious.



For WKORV (a 2BR L/O Deluxe unit), the 2006 MFs we paid were $1920USD ($2295CAD), and in 2016, we paid $3265USD ($4655CAD).

Over those 10 years, the MFs for that unit went up 70% in USD and 105% in CAD.

The biggest jump in real MFs for that unit was between 2009 and 2010 when they shot up over 20% (from $2575USD to $3190USD).

The biggest jump for us out-of-pocket for that unit was between 2008 and 2009 when we had a major reversal in CAD/USD exchange, and the MFs effectively went up over 40%.


----------



## alohakevin

I would be curious to get Syed's take on this. I would assume there had to be a vote on the new methodology by the board. Typically something of this scope would require a public comment period. It's hard to believe they are able to change valuation calculations internally without any comment period.


----------



## Henry M.

JudyS said:


> You could then point out that your timeshare has a kitchen, and you plan to cook all your meals while on Maui. ... You could also mention that you plan to avoid doing any gift shopping while on Maui. You could say that you will be doing cheaper activities (hiking rather than whale watching, say) than in the past.



Many locals believe timeshare owners always do these things, and that is why they hate them and want their taxes raised. They accept hotel visitors, as they spend a lot on activities and eating out. However, timeshare owners are viewed as chepskates that only clog up their infrastructure and leave little money behind, eating in and not doing many paid activities. We are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to obnoxious outsiders gumming up the works of the local community.


----------



## DavidnRobin

We spend a lot during our weeks - and informed them of this fact - regardless of their (mis)perception.


----------



## Helios

YYJMSP said:


> For WKORV (a 2BR L/O Deluxe unit), the 2006 MFs we paid were $1920USD ($2295CAD), and in 2016, we paid $3265USD ($4655CAD).
> 
> Over those 10 years, the MFs for that unit went up 70% in USD and 105% in CAD.
> 
> The biggest jump in real MFs for that unit was between 2009 and 2010 when they shot up over 20% (from $2575USD to $3190USD).
> 
> The biggest jump for us out-of-pocket for that unit was between 2008 and 2009 when we had a major reversal in CAD/USD exchange, and the MFs effectively went up over 40%.



What was the reason for the 09-10 increase?


----------



## bogey21

YYJMSP said:


> For WKORV ...... in 2016, we paid $3265USD ($4655CAD).
> 
> Over those 10 years, the MFs for that unit went up 70% in USD and 105% in CAD.



What am I missing here?  MF = $3,265 and (according to prior post) Property Taxes = $429.  And the issue is Property Taxes?  What about the outrageous MFs?

George


----------



## YYJMSP

moto x said:


> What was the reason for the 09-10 increase?



Pretty sure that was the system wide delinquencies, so the MFs had gone up to cover those who weren't paying, and of course, they never really went back down...


----------



## YYJMSP

bogey21 said:


> What am I missing here?  MF = $3,265 and (according to prior post) Property Taxes = $429.  And the issue is Property Taxes?  What about the outrageous MFs?
> 
> George



MFs include the property taxes.

Those numbers are for the disproportionally highly charged corner units.  You should probably use the standard 2BR L/O numbers for your outrage...


----------



## kingjoey

*Really? And your point is?*



Ken555 said:


> Based on a median valued home in Wisconsin, according to projections, property taxes have reduced ~$127 in five years. Sorry, but that's not much to be excited about and, of course, you have to wonder (!) what isn't being paid in the State...now back to our regular programming...



Even if that's the average case, although mine have gone down more, I'll take that all day long. How much have your taxes or rent gone down in the last 5 years? :hysterical:


----------



## ragdoll

emuyshondt said:


> Many locals believe timeshare owners always do these things, and that is why they hate them and want their taxes raised. They accept hotel visitors, as they spend a lot on activities and eating out. However, timeshare owners are viewed as chepskates that only clog up their infrastructure and leave little money behind, eating in and not doing many paid activities. We are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to obnoxious outsiders gumming up the works of the local community.



Isn't this what ARDA (PAC) is for? What do they do for us in this regard?


----------



## DeniseM

alohakevin said:


> I would be curious to get Syed's take on this. I would assume there had to be a vote on the new methodology by the board. Typically something of this scope would require a public comment period. It's hard to believe they are able to change valuation calculations internally without any comment period.



They only changed the valuation method on TIMESHARES, and perhaps only the Westin, but not property, homes and businesses on Maui, so I doubt very much if there was a vote.


----------



## dioxide45

DeniseM said:


> They only changed the valuation method on TIMESHARES, and perhaps only the Westin, but not property, homes and businesses on Maui, so I doubt very much if there was a vote.



If they changed the valuation method for only the Westin for the tax years of 2006, 2007, and 2008. The Westin properties have a bigger case against Maui County than they did before. This would be unfair taxation targeting one property over another. Likely illegally. If they are charging a different rate based on a different evaluation method to a specific property, the case is there that this action take my Maui County is in retaliation for the current lawsuit.


----------



## SueDonJ

ragdoll said:


> Isn't this what ARDA (PAC) is for? What do they do for us in this regard?



Use their contact information to ask them:

arda.org - Contact Information

ardaroc.org - Contact Us


----------



## GregT

All,

I do like the idea of contacting the businesses and trying to emphasize the issues we are facing -- this is the letter I sent back in 2010 and I sent it three times.   I have no idea if it had any impact, but I felt better about trying.  If this hits MOC too (as I expect it will) then I will draft a bigger longer letter.

I feel terrible for my WKORV brethren.  It seems like owning anything these days (far beyond the timeshare question) carries risks much greater than mere ownership.

Best,

Greg


----------



## jabak5

labonnevie said:


> I have just sent the following email to the Maui County Council Members and to the businesses included in the email. I also sent a shortened version to the Maui News Letters to the Editor:    http://64.66.125.244/vnr2/add_submission.asp?categoryID=769&publicationID=110
> 
> Yesterday I received notification from the Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Vacation Owners Association that I will soon be receiving a bill for a special assessment. This special assessment will pay for a RETROACTIVE increased assessment on my timeshare for real property taxes for the years 2006, 2007, and 2008! Taxes for these years had been paid in full in the respective tax years. The County of Maui RETROACTIVELY changed their assessment methodology and sent my Association a bill for $6.9 million! The bill was issued two weeks ago and required payment June 24th!
> No one, not even a Maui County Council member, could accept this as being reasonable, fair, evenhanded or even rational. Of course, it must seem to Maui County Council members that timeshare owners are easy pickings for additional tax revenues. What, after all, can they do to protest? They can’t vote against the council members that voted for such actions and they can’t come to council meetings to demand fair treatment.  They really are just easy prey to be exploited.
> I have been bringing my family to Maui annually since 1981. I have been a timeshare owner with Westin since 2005. We have always loved Maui, its natural beauty and warm people. Until now.
> So what can I do? Here is what I can and will do: we have always eaten every dinner and some lunches in local restaurants. Our favorites have included: Mama’s, Paia Fish Market, Da Kitchen, Aloha Mixed Plate, Pacific O, Merriman’s, Duke’s, Hula Grill, Gerard’s, Longhi’s, Leilani’s, Monkeypod and Nick’s.
> This September we will NOT eat in any of these (or other) restaurants. Their loss will be Safeway’s gain. We will enjoy our home cooked meals beachfront at our timeshare.
> Oh, and no golf at Kapalua or Wailea. That will save me well over $1500, which will pay my special assessment about 5 times. I will vigorously urge my fellow timeshare owners to do likewise. I will also fully support my Association in taking every possible legal action to repeal this egregious and baseless act by Maui County.
> With much Aloha.



Very similar letter just sent, adjusted for KORVN letter where it involves only tax year 2008.


----------



## labonnevie

Interesting email from Councilman Victorino

Mr. Roby

   Without more information, I wouldn't support the retro taxes.  However if there is 
more information which I don't know of,  then
I'd have to reconsider the answer. We will look into it tomorrow. 

Mahalo 
Councilman Victorino 


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: mauiforlovers@yahoo.com 
Date: 6/26/2016 8:44 AM (GMT-10:00) 
To: Michael Victorino <Michael.Victorino@mauicounty.us> 
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the Maui County Council 

Councilman Vitorino,
I do not speak for the Association. However, I know that they will be appealing.
Do you support changing tax bills from 8 to 10 years ago? 
Mahalo,
Charles Roby



From: Michael Victorino <Michael.Victorino@mauicounty.us>
To: "mauiforlovers@yahoo.com" <mauiforlovers@yahoo.com>; Mike White 
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2016 6:01 PM
Subject: RE: An Open Letter to the Maui County Council

Mr.  Roby

   Please ask the AOAO from your property if they are appealing the special assessment or if you owners will band together to appeal?   You have that right to appeal.  Please contact me or my staff to advise us on what has or will happen. 

Mahalo 
Councilman Victorino 
808 2819053.


----------



## The Haileys

Huh ... interesting indeed. It seems that this was passed without the knowledge and consent of the Council? Or at the least, this one councilman ...


----------



## curbysplace

Isn't there a Statute of Limitations on assessment of property taxes going back eight years in the state of Hawaii? 

This is an instant long thread. I didn't read it all so if this has been discussed already I apologize: 

When the IRS assesses your tax amount due based on your 1040 tax return  that amount is final absent fraud on the individual's part. Under Federal income tax law the U.S. cannot go back more than three years on your tax return for anything let alone to change its assessment. You'd think (or hope) that the state of Hawaii has a similar statute of limitations in its codified laws.


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> Dave (or anyone else who is paying the highest tax rate for a Deluxe unit) - Do you know off-hand how much you paid in taxes on your 2016 maintenance fee?



Sorry Denise - just saw this. Was this answered?  I can look up.

btw - I realize this was for 2006-2008 back taxes, my previous point is that money is money - regardless if called MF or SA (or any fee - including Maui occupancy tax - another cost that can be increased arbitrary).  This effectively increased 2006-08 MFs now paid retroactively - which affects how much per year it costs to own this resort - regardless of it's name. Just like property tax increases by the USVI Gov't on WSJ-VGV owners - I consider these the cost of owning - doesn't matter what the source is (MF, Tax, VSN fee...).

What will happen 2009 to present? What is too stop the Maui council to continue targeting TS owners (and apparently specifically WKORV/N).

Folks: write letters/emails... be proactive


----------



## cubigbird

How is this legal on any level?  How can this municipality just go back after the timeshares after the fact and recalculate and charge taxes for taxes due almost 10 years ago?  It's like going after a renter asking for money "oops I forgot to increase your rent so here's a bill for the increase."  What's now stopping other municipalities elsewhere from catching on and doing the same thing?  What a mess!!


----------



## maph

I think we should get together and rent some radio time on local Maui stations & let people there know what's being done to us, and the same thing could happen to anyone else who owns property on Maui, locals included.


----------



## LisaRex

maph said:


> I think we should get together and rent some radio time on local Maui stations & let people there know what's being done to us, and the same thing could happen to anyone else who owns property on Maui, locals included.



I don't know if the locals would care much.  They have a love/hate relationship with tourists as is, and if the tax authorities ease up on us, where do you think they'll look to make up the gap? 

Besides, part of the reason that Maui County is targeting WKORV is because the HOA fought back against the last usurious tax increases.  That's why the letter mentions that they believe it was done in retaliation.  There's little timeshare owners can do against a local government that decides to target them.  The best we can do is to put pressure on businesses we frequent, and let them know that the more dollars we pay in MFs, the less we'll spend at their establishment.


----------



## maph

The locals may not care what happens to us, but I think they will care about the precedent that's being set, where the county can go back 8 years and change tax assessments. The point is that if they can do this to us, then they can do it to anyone.


----------



## LisaRex

maph said:


> The locals may not care what happens to us, but I think they will care about the precedent that's being set, where the county can go back 8 years and change tax assessments. The point is that if they can do this to us, then they can do it to anyone.



Yes, but the locals have way more power than us because they can vote out the entire County council at the next election, or even demand a recall.  Timeshare owners cannot.


----------



## wannagotoo

Does the local paper have an opinion section? A good writer could give a brief review of the facts and how this pertains to the Maui population. Timeshare visitors will cut down spending and that affects restaurants, tips, entertainment, etc. I have a tendency to include opinion when usually just the facts are more persuasive.


----------



## maph

Is there anyone here who does live on Maui?  Do the locals really think 'yeah - let's stick it to those timeshare people!'?  They aren't interested in doing what's fair?  They know what's going on and are ok with it?


----------



## DeniseM

> Do the locals really think 'yeah - let's stick it to those timeshare people!'?  They aren't interested in doing what's fair?  They know what's going on and are ok with it?



Attitudes towards tourists/mainlanders are complicated:

-Don't forget that the US conquered Hawaii - this isn't ancient history to locals.

-Many locals work 2 or more jobs just to put food on the table and there is some resentment towards "rich" tourists who are competing for resources with far more money to spend.

-Some feel that tourists/mainlanders have driven up the cost of living and don't pay their fair share.

-Some locals feel that tourism has destroyed their way of life.


----------



## canesfan

*WKORV-N&amp;S Emergency Assessment [Retroactive Taxes]*

Has anyone looked on Elle Cochran's Facebook page? She's on the Maui County Council and interesting enough she used to work as a Janitor at Marriott's Maui Ocean Club. Her husband owns a small business too. 
If you want to know how locals feel about development on Maui, check out her page. I'm guessing she's all for  taxing us heavily.

Here's a clip of what someone posted on her page & a reply:

Good morning Elle Cochran
Just wanted to share my disappointment in seeing the trees cut down on the beach in front of the new time share project in Honokawai. The last of North Beach being taken away before our eyes! This cannot be legal??
SO SAD...

Omg no way. More rich people buying up the land


----------



## Henry M.

While the retroactive taxes seem unfair, and especially the way it is being done doesn't seem legal, the relationship with tourists and other outsiders is complicated.

I can see it even in my own city in the middle of Texas. We have a booming high-tech industry with good paying jobs that is attracting a large influx of people, particularly from California. People come in used to expensive real estate and significantly drive up the cost of homes and other real estate. The "bad" side of town is close to downtown and is suddenly attractive and being renovated. Prices are shooting through the roof, resulting in skyrocketing property values. Now the people moving in can afford much of this, but "locals" just see their property taxes going up so much that they can't afford their homes, even if they outright own them. Those working the lower wage jobs can't find affordable housing and have to move farther and farther away from their old communities. Gentrification of many areas is nice for the newcomers, but bad for the locals. Roads become clogged with traffic. Taxes have to be raised to increase infrastructure.

I've been going to Maui for decades, and even I don't like the growth I see there. Now that I've been there, I don't want more people to come in! :hysterical:

Newcomers do spoil the area, especially when there is very limited land. I'm sure California experienced the same thing when people moved into the beautiful costal areas. Most people can hardly afford to live in San Francisco anymore. 

I can't think of any argument that can make locals like timeshares. Timesharers generally burden the infrastructure just as much as hotel tourists but spend a lot less, especially after they come several years and no longer do any of the tourist activities and go out to eat less. They don't pay the high accommodation taxes (16%?) that tourists pay on their hotel accommodations. All outsiders drive property values up as they scoop up local real estate. Few spend enough to make up for the infrastructure and services they use. I am as guilty as anyone of these sins. It would be more productive to try to figure out how to work with the community on a fair solution than just get mad at them for wanting to protect their beautiful island. We really have no pull with the local government.

Westin does do a lot of community work. There are cleanup projects in the mountains and such that perhaps could benefit from volunteers that enjoy "working vacations" to improve the environment and perhaps get to see parts of the island that are normally off-limits. Seeing timesharers actually participate in the community might help improve relations. After several visits, I can't help to feel some responsibility for the local area and do not view the locals as just mean and trying to extract money from me. There truly is a problem with excessive visitors.


----------



## DavidnRobin

canesfan said:


> Has anyone looked on Elle Cochran's Facebook page? She's on the Maui County Council and interesting enough she used to work as a Janitor at Marriott's Maui Ocean Club. Her husband owns a small business too.
> If you want to know how locals feel about development on Maui, check out her page. I'm guessing she's all for  taxing us heavily.



Thanks for the FB info - I just posted on her page.

Hawaiians should be concerned (as we all should be) about the degrading of the environment due to tourism, but this is not just TS owners.


----------



## DeniseM

Has anyone else received a response to their emails to council members?  (Besides the one posted above.)


----------



## jabak5

DeniseM said:


> Has anyone else received a response to their emails to council members?  (Besides the one posted above.)



I have NOT received a response nor would I expect one.


----------



## ThreeLittleBirds

emuyshondt said:


> While the retroactive taxes seem unfair, and especially the way it is being done doesn't seem legal, the *relationship with tourists and other outsiders is complicated.*
> 
> 
> I can't think of any argument that can make locals like timeshares. Timesharers generally burden the infrastructure just as much as hotel tourists *but spend a lot less,* especially after they come several years and no longer do any of the tourist activities and go out to eat less. They don't pay the high accommodation taxes (16%?) that tourists pay on their hotel accommodations. All outsiders drive property values up as they scoop up local real estate. Few spend enough to make up for the infrastructure and services they use. I am as guilty as anyone of these sins. It would be more productive to try to figure out how to work with the community on a fair solution than just get mad at them for wanting to protect their beautiful island. We really have no pull with the local government.



I've been wanting to respond to this thread with similar thoughts. Having lived on Maui and worked at the Ritz Carlton, I agree with the statements above, especially the bolded areas. 

You will be very hard pressed as a non-native to find any sort of sympathy from locals. Logical or not, a divide exists. If you look into the history of how the land that the Westin, Marriott, etc. were acquired, this may provide some understanding. I get that an unexpected $1k+ bill stinks, but it is a small price to pay compared to what the Native Hawaiians paid. 

Things I learned from living on Maui: If the government can complicate a process, they manage to every time, and if they can tax or collect money, no matter how unfair it may seem, it will happen. This is not just for tourists, but for locals too. Try registering your car in one visit with only paying standard fees -- not going to happen. Try getting a professional license. You can do this with months time and several hoops, each one costing $$.

I know many of you are well meaning, but I will say as gently as I can, some of your plans to react to this taxation come off with a sense of entitlement. You would be best served to pay the bill, hope that the money can improve infrastructures on the island, and forget about it all with your next mai tai watching the gorgeous sunset.


----------



## maph

If I remember correctly the Maui County council commissioned a study ~2010 on what impact timeshares have on local infrastructure and whether-or-not they were a net negative or positive to the local economy.  Seems to me the study concluded that timeshares were in fact a net positive, and didn't overly burden local resources, as a lot of people seem to think.


----------



## DavidnRobin

It is not 'sense of entitlement' on our end - it is the exact opposite - it is the Maui council (and apparently locals) 'sense of entitlement'

This is unfair taxation focused on TS owners much more so than hotel guest AND much (much) more than locals. This is 'taxation w/o representation'.

The facts are the facts - look at property tax rates (and now retroactive taxation). This is unfair taxation - ANYONE with common sense would agree - other than 'gut feel' and how horrible tourists are...


----------



## Ken555

DavidnRobin said:


> It is not 'sense of entitlement' on our end - it is the exact opposite - it is the Maui council (and apparently locals) 'sense of entitlement'
> 
> This is unfair taxation focused on TS owners much more so that hotel guest AND much (much) more than locals. This is 'taxation w/o representation'.
> 
> The facts are the facts - look at property tax rates (and now retroactive taxation). This is unfair taxation - ANYONE with common sense would agree - other than 'gut feel' and how horrible tourists are...





Absolutely agree. If owners don't speak up, then things will never change. Relating this tax increase to historical rights and/or thefts, as implied by a previous post, is inappropriate. It may be easier for owners to ignore these cost increases, but it certainly doesn't imbue the Mahalo spirit the island continually tries to impart.


----------



## Henry M.

Certainly the behavior of the county government is not right. Retroactive taxes and unreasonable deadlines should be illegal. However, many of the underlying issues are real, and need to somehow get addressed.

Amplifying that TS owners aren't going to spend money is just reinforcing what locals already believe. Saying a few hundred dollars of taxes aren't going to get spent on other things is not very believable. Addressing what the main gripes of the locals are will go a longer way towards settling the attitude they have against TS owners. The issues are not 100% one-sided. Both sides need to figure out a better way.


----------



## labonnevie

wannagotoo said:


> Does the local paper have an opinion section? A good writer could give a brief review of the facts and how this pertains to the Maui population. Timeshare visitors will cut down spending and that affects restaurants, tips, entertainment, etc. I have a tendency to include opinion when usually just the facts are more persuasive.



I submitted a letter to the editor on Saturday, it has not been published.

http://64.66.125.244/vnr2/add_submission.asp?categoryID=769&publicationID=110


----------



## labonnevie

emuyshondt said:


> Certainly the behavior of the county government is not right. Retroactive taxes and unreasonable deadlines should be illegal. However, many of the underlying issues are real, and need to somehow get addressed.
> 
> Amplifying that TS owners aren't going to spend money is just reinforcing what locals already believe. Saying a few hundred dollars of taxes aren't going to get spent on other things is not very believable. Addressing what the main gripes of the locals are will go a longer way towards settling the attitude they have against TS owners. The issues are not 100% one-sided. Both sides need to figure out a better way.



What do you believe are the real underlying issues that need to be addressed? To me the only real issue here is the retroactive nature of the tax bill.

We spend quite a lot of money every year in Maui, all dinners, most lunches and a fair amount of golf. Also a yearly sail to Lanai or snorkel cruise.
We can certainly afford these expenditures, but they ARE discretionary. I think it is important for the County Council and businesses to understand that the approach of these retroactive taxes is wrong and may have consequences. 

I don't know how many timeshare owners trips a year are taken to our resorts, but if each of us were to choose to spend $500 less in local businesses, it would have to mean a substantial hit to the economy. Obviously it is up to each individual how they choose to address this very unfair action by the county.


----------



## Rsauer3473

I just responded to the WKORV homeowners association requesting a copy of the notice that it received from Maui County. I looked online for a couple hours last night and other than discussions of timeshare rates in general, I could not find any reference to the recent action about retroactive 2006-08 property tax assessments. 

It might be worthwhile for other owners to request the letter sent from Maui County. I'd like to see what they say in order to respond appropriately. That the notice comes immediately after the turnover to VSE/Interval, I am very curious.


----------



## DeniseM

Very good idea


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alohakevin

Rsauer3473 said:


> I just responded to the WKORV homeowners association requesting a copy of the notice that it received from Maui County. I looked online for a couple hours last night and other than discussions of timeshare rates in general, I could not find any reference to the recent action about retroactive 2006-08 property tax assessments.
> 
> It might be worthwhile for other owners to request the letter sent from Maui County. I'd like to see what they say in order to respond appropriately. That the notice comes immediately after the turnover to VSE/Interval, I am very curious.



Ditto. Good idea maybe we should all each individually appeal increase given we are deeded owners.

http://www.mauicounty.gov/DocumentCenter/View/103256

This site has a lot of interesting info. Curious as to the amount in appeal from timeshare. Page 12


----------



## alohakevin

Just FYI

2015 – 2016 Maui Property Tax Rates
The 2015 – 2016 Maui Property Tax Rates have been released.  There was a slight drop in rates for all the classifications from the previous year.

These real property tax rates are shown per $1000 of net taxable assessed valuation.  The rates shown below are effective July 1, 2015, thru June 30, 2016.

The Residential Tax Rate is  $5.40

The Apartment Tax Rate is  $6.00

The Commercial Tax Rate is  $6.60

The Industrial Tax Rate is  $6.85

The Agricultural Tax Rate is  $5.75

The Conservation Tax Rate is  $5.90

The Hotel and Resort Tax Rate is  $8.85

The Time Share Tax Rate is  $14.55

The Homeowner Tax Rate is  $2.75

This points out the discrepancy of tax liability


----------



## LisaRex

alohakevin said:


> Just FYI
> 
> 2015 – 2016 Maui Property Tax Rates
> The 2015 – 2016 Maui Property Tax Rates have been released.  There was a slight drop in rates for all the classifications from the previous year.
> 
> These real property tax rates are shown per $1000 of net taxable assessed valuation.  The rates shown below are effective July 1, 2015, thru June 30, 2016.
> 
> The Residential Tax Rate is  $5.40
> 
> The Apartment Tax Rate is  $6.00
> 
> The Commercial Tax Rate is  $6.60
> 
> The Industrial Tax Rate is  $6.85
> 
> The Agricultural Tax Rate is  $5.75
> 
> The Conservation Tax Rate is  $5.90
> 
> The Hotel and Resort Tax Rate is  $8.85
> 
> The Time Share Tax Rate is  $14.55
> 
> The Homeowner Tax Rate is  $2.75
> 
> This points out the discrepancy of tax liability



Those are the 2015 rates.  2016 rates are a tad lower.  2.9% reduction ($2.70) for homeowners and 1.6% ($14.31) for timeshare owners. 

Nonetheless, suffice it to say that timeshare owners pay 800% more than homeowners.  A resident who lives in a home valued at $500,000 will only pay $810 per year after their $200,000 homestead exemption.  A similarly valued timeshare will pay $7100.  

That explains the love/hate relationship of Hawaiians with tourists.  They hate that we clog the roads and drive up prices of homes, all while enjoying the nice subsidy we provide them via usurious taxes. 

Ah, the price we pay for paradise!


----------



## Ken555

LisaRex said:


> That explains the love/hate relationship of Hawaiians with tourists.  They hate that we clog the roads and drive up prices of homes, all while enjoying the nice subsidy we provide them via usurious taxes.




This argument has never made sense to me. If one timeshare and one home can be occupied by a similar number of people, then why would Maui think that timeshares "clog the roads"? Logically, they must think that visitors do nothing but drive all day with occasional stops at grocery stores (since we don't eat out) and public parks (since we don't spend money on tourist activities). Ah, of course...logic has nothing to do with it...


----------



## DavidnRobin

^^^ this ^^^

Maui's economy is tourist driven - whose fault is that?
There is plenty of blame to pass around.

btw - this is about changing the method of valuation (retroactively) and not the tax rate. Although the tax rate is also unfair.

Why is this taken out on TS vacationers? We are the ones that have made an annual commitment to their economy (tourism), and have the motive to maintain it's beauty within our control. And because of this, they can hold us hostage.

Looks like we need a call to action (?) - be proactive - email/FB posts - 'Like' others's FB posts so others can see... that is how Social Media works (old) Folks 

hmmm... this is how the WSJ thread started...


----------



## triangulum33

While taxes are disproportionately high for timeshare owners, the bigger issue IMHO is the county having the ability to go almost 10 years in the past and re-asses taxes at will.


----------



## dioxide45

Also, not only do timeshare owners pay a property tax, they also pay a daily occupancy tax in Hawaii. I wonder what the real tax rate is when you factor that in?


----------



## cubigbird

triangulum33 said:


> While taxes are disproportionately high for timeshare owners, the bigger issue IMHO is the county having the ability to go almost 10 years in the past and re-asses taxes at will.



This can't be Federally legal.  If so how and why?  You can't just go back at will, recalculate taxes and assess higher.  Can't be legal.  as previously discussed it's like going back to a former renter and asking for money.  Once it's assessed it has to be done.  Clearly a situation of retaliation here.  What does the State of Hawaii say about this?


----------



## DavidnRobin

This comes down to a re-assessment for the property valuation of WKORV/N (per HOA email) from 2006-2008.

_When the taxes were originally assessed, the units were valued on a land plus construction cost basis. The County is retroactively assessing the units using a market value methodology._

Is this Legal?
Is this how WKORV/N is currently valuation?
Did other TSs get a similar re-assessment?


----------



## larryallen

DavidnRobin said:


> ...
> Did other TSs get a similar re-assessment?




This is what I want to know.  I have to imagine all timeshares got a similar surprise or did other timeshares plan differently? Did the powers that be (whoever that is) do something negligent in their tax planning for WKORV?


----------



## labonnevie

*Maui News Letter to the Editor*

Surprisingly, the Maui News published my Letter to the Editor today.
I would sugggest that others send their thoughts to the Maui News as well. (250 word limit).

*Time-share owners easy pickings for council*
June 30, 2016
The Maui News

I recently received notification from the Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Vacation Owners Association that I will be receiving a bill for a special assessment. This is to pay for a retroactive increased real property tax on my time share for the years 2006, 2007 and 2008!

Taxes for these years had been paid in full in the respective tax years. The County of Maui retroactively changed their assessment methodology and sent my association a bill for $6.9 million! The bill was issued two weeks ago and required payment June 24!

It must seem to Maui County council members that time-share owners are easy pickings for additional tax revenues. What, after all, can we do to protest? We can't vote against the council members or come to council meetings to demand fair treatment. I am sure we are viewed as easy prey just to be exploited.

I have been bringing my family to Maui annually since 1981. We have always loved Maui, its natural beauty and warm people.

So what can I do? We have always eaten every dinner and some lunches in local restaurants. Our favorites have included: Mama's, Paia Fish Market, Da Kitchen, Aloha Mixed Plate, Pacific O, Merriman's, Duke's and Hula Grill.

This September we will not eat in any restaurants. We will enjoy our home-cooked meals beachfront at our time share. And no golf at Kapalua or Wailea. That will save me well over $1,500, which will pay my special assessment several times. How shortsighted of the council.

Charles Roby

Santa Ana, Calif


----------



## klpca

larryallen said:


> This is what I want to know.  I have to imagine all timeshares got a similar surprise or did other timeshares plan differently? Did the powers that be (whoever that is) do something negligent in their tax planning for WKORV?



I've wondered if someone in Maui suddenly discovered that they never switched over from cost+ to the market value methodology when construction was completed? Long shot, I know, but this is one weird situation. I cannot believe that there isn't a statute of limitations in play here. 

We own at another resort on Maui and our taxes seem high even based on a market value (easier to assess on our development as we have some non-timeshare units that you see on the mls occasionally), but our development is a 30 year old property across the street from the ocean so not comparable to the Westin properties.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Great letter, and it's something we already chose to do (less restaurants, less activities), based on our rather ridiculous increases of fees on our oceanfront units on Maui.  Unfair taxation on timeshares and no voice or vote on Maui for us.  



labonnevie said:


> Surprisingly, the Maui News published my Letter to the Editor today.
> I would sugggest that others send their toughts to the Maui News as well. (250 word limit).
> 
> *Time-share owners easy pickings for council*
> June 30, 2016
> The Maui News
> 
> I recently received notification from the Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Vacation Owners Association that I will be receiving a bill for a special assessment. This is to pay for a retroactive increased real property tax on my time share for the years 2006, 2007 and 2008!
> 
> Taxes for these years had been paid in full in the respective tax years. The County of Maui retroactively changed their assessment methodology and sent my association a bill for $6.9 million! The bill was issued two weeks ago and required payment June 24!
> 
> It must seem to Maui County council members that time-share owners are easy pickings for additional tax revenues. What, after all, can we do to protest? We can't vote against the council members or come to council meetings to demand fair treatment. I am sure we are viewed as easy prey just to be exploited.
> 
> I have been bringing my family to Maui annually since 1981. We have always loved Maui, its natural beauty and warm people.
> 
> So what can I do? We have always eaten every dinner and some lunches in local restaurants. Our favorites have included: Mama's, Paia Fish Market, Da Kitchen, Aloha Mixed Plate, Pacific O, Merriman's, Duke's and Hula Grill.
> 
> This September we will not eat in any restaurants. We will enjoy our home-cooked meals beachfront at our time share. And no golf at Kapalua or Wailea. That will save me well over $1,500, which will pay my special assessment several times. How shortsighted of the council.
> 
> Charles Roby
> 
> Santa Ana, Calif


----------



## LisaRex

labonnevie, I logged on to check out your letter and, more importantly, to see if there were any responses from which to gauge the locals' reactions, if any. But I couldn't read it unless I ponied up $10 for 24 hour access or $15/month for an annual access.

I'm pretty sure I can access the NYTimes for less than that!

Good luck with your fight.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Thanks lakonnevie - glad to see someone being proactive.

I also wonder that WKORV/N Owners are getting screwed when using Market Value approach when VSE (SVO) have HUGE on-paper costs for the villas. For example, WKORV OFD has an on-paper price of $125,000 (!) when resale value is ~$40,000 (same with other villa types).


----------



## LisaRex

DavidnRobin said:


> I also wonder that WKORV/N Owners are getting screwed when using Market Value approach when VSE (SVO) have HUGE on-paper costs for the villas. For example, WKORV OFD has an on-paper price of $125,000 (!) when resale value is ~$40,000 (same with other villa types).



I assume that Market Value means what a similarly sized ocean front condo would sell for, which would be in the $2M+ range for an OFD unit.  At $125,000 x 52, that'd be $6,500,000, or $94,000 per year in property taxes, equaling $1800 per owner.  Of course, that would be averaged with the IV and OV condos which would probably sell for $300,000-$1.5M.

P.S. And don't be giving them any ideas!


----------



## DavidnRobin

LisaRex said:


> I assume that Market Value means what a similarly sized ocean front condo would sell for, which would be in the $2M+ range for an OFD unit.  At $125,000 x 52, that'd be $6,500,000, or $94,000 per year in property taxes, equaling $1800 per owner.  Of course, that would be averaged with the IV and OV condos which would probably sell for $300,000-$1.5M.
> 
> P.S. And don't be giving them any ideas!



My point was if the Market Valuation was based on what SVO sold these for, or their on-paper price (which Sales uses to show buyers how much the value has increased) that has increased, then the Market Value would be greater than actual FMV.

For properties - when the home value decreases, I can petition to have my valuation decreased and that in turn decreases my property tax.

An argument could be made that the market value could be less if FMV is used for these VOIs.


----------



## LisaRex

DavidnRobin said:


> My point was if the Market Valuation was based on what SVO sold these for, or their on-paper price (which Sales uses to show buyers how much the value has increased) that has increased, then the Market Value would be greater than actual FMV.
> 
> For properties - when the home value decreases, I can petition to have my valuation decreased and that in turn decreases my property tax.
> 
> An argument could be made that the market value could be less if FMV is used for these VOIs.



Even though these are technically deeded properties, it doesn't appear that Starwood/VSE is reporting sales transfers to Maui County because all the sales dates are the same. 

Also, remember that Maui County has also deemed that all properties are to be valued at their "highest and best" use.  That IMO means that the original developer price would trump any resale prices anyway. (They'll get you coming and going.)

In any event, it appears that they are valuing the properties more in the line of what I'd expect (e.g. compared to a similarly sized condo), except I think that their appraisals are high for the IV units. Here's a few sample tax records which show what they are assessing, and charging, for WKORV:

Arguably the crappiest unit in the entire campus, Unit 4106-08 (bldg 4, 1st floor, dreaded parking lot view), is valued at $898,900 (91,500 for the land + $806,600 for the condo) and the annual property taxes are $12,400. 

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140030216

Unit 3409-11 (bldg 3, 4th floor, OV) is valued at $1,079,200 ($91,500 for the land + $987,000 for the building), and the taxes are $15,000, before the 10% penalty, which I assume will be deducted since the HOA paid the tax a few days ago.

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140030175&show_history=1&

The best unit in the entire campus, Unit 2630-31 (Building 2, 6th floor, OF center) is valued at $1.78M, with taxes at $24,600.
http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140030103

Westin North has similar values, with the best unit (Building 8, 6th floor, unit 06-08) in the place being valued at $1.78M with taxes at $23,743

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140040271

Arguably the crappiest unit is valued at $869,900 with taxes at $10,325.

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140040079

From looking at the valuations, it looks like even if this SA passes legal muster, they significantly increased valuations between 2008 and 2009, so this wouldn't impact you any more than it already does.


----------



## LisaRex

And looking at Marriott valuation (100 Nohea Kai), in the newer wing, a 2 bdrm OV is valued at just over $1M with a property tax of $14,389. A 2 bdrm IV is valued at $862,000 with a property tax of $12,000. A 3 bdrm OF unit is valued at over $2M with a property tax of $29,000.  

So pretty much in line with WKORV.  However, there is no evidence yet that they are trying to after them for 2006-2008.  If this is the case, then that would be really stupid on their part because it's very evident that their actions are, indeed, retaliatory. 

I'm going to guess that they're doing this to push their weight around and that they will back off before making a huge mistake.


----------



## labonnevie

LisaRex said:


> labonnevie, I logged on to check out your letter and, more importantly, to see if there were any responses from which to gauge the locals' reactions, if any. But I couldn't read it unless I ponied up $10 for 24 hour access or $15/month for an annual access.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I can access the NYTimes for less than that!
> 
> Good luck with your fight.



I was able to see the whole thing by searching Google with:

maui news time-share owners easy pickings for council


----------



## LisaRex

labonnevie said:


> I was able to see the whole thing by searching Google with:
> 
> maui news time-share owners easy pickings for council



Thanks so much.  That worked.  I also found a very interesting article, which confirms my theory that timeshare valuations are based on what a similarly sized condo would sell for, and not sales: 

http://www.mauinews.com/page/conten...ers--seek-lower-property-tax-rate.html?nav=10 or  Google "Maui News Time-share owners seek lower property tax rate." 

"When asked recently to comment on property tax rates as well as the number of appeals for time shares and other categories, council Chairman Mike White said in an email: "I believe hotels, resorts and time shares pay a fair share of taxes. Although I understand there are hundreds of hotel and resort tax appeals, 99 percent of them are condos, most likely from strong sales driving up values.

"Time shares have voiced concerns with their tax rates, but their valuations are based on comparable condos and not based on the sales price of their units. This makes their taxable valuation less than it would otherwise be," White said."

The article explains that WKORV/N Associations filed suit against the Council of Maui for violating sunshine laws back in 2013.  "The suit was filed by Ocean Resort Villas and Ocean Resort Villas North vacation owners associations associations and time-share owners from the associations' Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas and Villas North complexes."  Their representative is Grant Gillham.  

So, it appears that this is Maui Council's way of retaliating for the lawsuit and possibly retaliation against the building of Nanea, which the County attempted to quash via withdrawing their building permit.  

I don't know why I'm surprised that Council is acting so immaturely by singling WKORV/N out for its reassessment.  I also wonder how much owners are paying for Grant Gillham to represent them, because it appears that he may be doing more damage than good.  Innocent owners are being sucked into a fight that they are mere pawns in.  And this tactic has done nothing to lower the usurious tax rates that timeshare owners uniquely face.


----------



## LisaRex

Here is another interesting article from 2013:

http://www.thetimeshareauthority.com/2013/08/23/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end-for-maui-timeshare/

"Voicing concerns that timeshares contribute less to the economy than do hotels, the Maui County Council Members “took up a bill that would prohibit future timeshares on Maui.”

Council member Riki Hokama, a non-voting member of the Planning Committee, said, “We need hotel rooms, not timeshare units,” as she introduced the bill and urged the committee to support it. Hokama added that hotels provide more opportunities for employment to the general workforce."

...And it appears we have the Marriott to blame: 

"One council member, Mike White, who is also the current General Manager of Kaanapali Beach Hotel, explained his opposition to more Maui timeshares  by citing a Marriott hotel that transitioned to vacation ownership. White said, “As an example, there were jobs lost from banquet staff, the luau was eliminated, retail services were eliminated and the convention business was hurt.”


----------



## labonnevie

LisaRex,
Your two postings are very insightful. Mike White is now the Council Chair and appears to have a real burr under his saddle for timeshares. That he is the GM of a hotel would seem to mean timeshare owners will never get a fair taxation rate vs. hotels.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Just paid property taxes for Hono Koa oceanfront units, and we own three of those.  $264.10 per week.


----------



## YYJMSP

> Bills for the special assessment will be mailed shortly and will be due thirty (30) days from the date of mailing.



Question #1 -- anyone get a bill yet? Curious, as Canadian owners may be impacted by a potential postal strike here delaying delivery of the notices.

Question #2 -- since the monies were already due (and I assume paid on time), where did the HOA get the monies from to cover itself until people's assessments get paid 30+ days later?

Question #3 -- how are they going to deal with delinquencies?  I assume the paying owners will get extra added to their 2017 MFs to cover whoever didn't pay up.  Which also goes back to question #2 of where are the monies coming from to cover the delinquent amounts in the short term?  The budget line item for reserve for uncollectable accounts only adds up to $300K.  Unless there's somewhere that amount has been building up (anyone get Balance Sheets?), since there has been a line item in the budget for this every year...


----------



## dioxide45

YYJMSP said:


> Question #1 -- anyone get a bill yet? Curious, as Canadian owners may be impacted by a potential postal strike here delaying delivery of the notices.
> 
> Question #2 -- since the monies were already due (and I assume paid on time), where did the HOA get the monies from to cover itself until people's assessments get paid 30+ days later?



They collected all of 2016 MF in January but have onoy burnt through about 50% of that come July. They just advanced it from the rest of the years operating fund.



> Question #3 -- how are they going to deal with delinquencies?  I assume the paying owners will get extra added to their 2017 MFs to cover whoever didn't pay up.  Which also goes back to question #2 of where are the monies coming from to cover the delinquent amounts in the short term?  The budget line item for reserve for uncollectable accounts only adds up to $300K.  Unless there's somewhere that amount has been building up (anyone get Balance Sheets?), since there has been a line item in the budget for this every year...



Does Vistana have a program where after the HOA forecloses Vistana then buys back that inventory and covers the MFs to then turn and resell the weeks?


----------



## YYJMSP

dioxide45 said:


> They collected all of 2016 MF in January but have onoy burnt through about 50% of that come July. They just advanced it from the rest of the years operating fund.



Yuck.  MF revenues are $25million, leaving them $12million now, so if that's what they did, that took half their remaining monies



dioxide45 said:


> Does Vistana have a program where after the HOA forecloses Vistana then buys back that inventory and covers the MFs to then turn and resell the weeks?



They did that back in 2008 I think it was (or was that at other properties?) when delinquencies were significant.  I don't know if they would do the same for not paying the SA at this time of the year.


----------



## LisaRex

labonnevie said:


> LisaRex,
> Your two postings are very insightful. Mike White is now the Council Chair and appears to have a real burr under his saddle for timeshares. That he is the GM of a hotel would seem to mean timeshare owners will never get a fair taxation rate vs. hotels.



I agree. I think it's funny that he connects the closure of the luau with the building of more timeshares.  I've gone to a luau 3 of the 5 times I've visited Maui....just not his.


----------



## dioxide45

YYJMSP said:


> Yuck.  MF revenues are $25million, leaving them $12million now, so if that's what they did, that took half their remaining monies



I also don't know how Maui taxes are billed. Do they bill in one installment? When it the yearly taxes due. Perhaps those are not due until later this year and they just advanced from the tax money collected in the January MFs and will get the SA back in time to pay the annual installment(s)?


----------



## LisaRex

dioxide45 said:


> I also don't know how Maui taxes are billed. Do they bill in one installment? When it the yearly taxes due. Perhaps those are not due until later this year and they just advanced from the tax money collected in the January MFs and will get the SA back in time to pay the annual installment(s)?



Property taxes are billed semi-annually, with first half due in mid-February and second half due in mid-August.  This latest recalculation of years 2006-2008 was due 6/24/16, and acc to the letter, they had 2 weeks to cough up the dough.  It appears to me that the County of Maui is trying to throw its weight around in retaliation for the sunshine law lawsuit, and cause as much aggravation as possible.  

Sadly, owners are caught in the middle of this ridiculous pissing contest and it is they who are getting wet.  Even if you ultimately get a refund on the SA, which I believe will eventually happen, how much are you going to have to fork out in attorney's fees to fight it?


----------



## LisaRex

BTW, I don't see a reference to the re-assessment of 2006-8 on the property tax website anymore.  They also removed the 10% penalty.  This may mean that the County has already reconsidered its position on this. I'd contact my HOA rep and ask what the status is before paying that SA. 

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140030175&show_history=1&


----------



## psfcfa

Has anyone actually received an invoice for the SA, or would it show up on the VSE website?  Surprisingly, I never even received the original email, and wouldn't know about it were it not for this forum!


----------



## DavidnRobin

LisaRex said:


> BTW, I don't see a reference to the re-assessment of 2006-8 on the property tax website anymore.  They also removed the 10% penalty.  This may mean that the County has already reconsidered its position on this. I'd contact my HOA rep and ask what the status is before paying that SA.
> 
> http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140030175&show_history=1&



LisaRex - this is interesting - thanks for taking the time to research all of this.

I am happy that Mike White (Council Chair) is spouting off on-record (sans facts).  I would imagine this would be beneficial to an appeal by WKORV/N since it shows clear bias and conflict of interest.

Hopefully - this is a sign that Maui would lose in court...
or - they just haven't had time to process and mail bills yet...


----------



## canesfan

Mike White is up for reelection. He has campaign signs all over the island. It will be interesting to see the council results. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## DeniseM

Corrected:  Sorry - I looked at the wrong ownership!  The SA is NOT listed on my Acct.  That was the EOY MF for my SDO rental!


----------



## YYJMSP

DeniseM said:


> I have not received a paper bill, but it's on the VSE website:






Hmm i don't see anything on either of our units...


----------



## DeniseM

I have also received no response from VSE to my request for a copy of the bill from the county.


----------



## DavidnRobin

YYJMSP said:


> Hmm i don't see anything on either of our units...



Nothing on VSE for our WKORV VOI - says balance due = $0


----------



## DeniseM

Ooppsss - I looked at the wrong ownership!


----------



## alohakevin

Just found this interesting.

Published in The Maui News, June 26, 2016
By MIKE WHITE, for The Maui News

As famous Maui visitor Mark Twain observed, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

Mayor Alan Arakawa’s Oct. 10 “Our County” column was filled with statistics about the county budget, but readers were left with false impressions.

The mayor complained of the County Council’s purported decision to “withhold money from those who need it” and accused the council of increasing its budget by 34 percent. His reasoning and data just do not add up. In fact, he used inaccurate budget numbers in his calculations.

Mark Twain

If he used the correct numbers, he would have found that the council’s budget increased by only a total 11.46 percent from fiscal year 2011 until fiscal year 2017. In comparison, the Mayor’s Office, including the administrative arm of the Office of Economic Development, actually increased its budget 18.35 percent over the same period, or 6.89 percentage points more than the council.

The mayor also failed to state that in just six years the county’s budget has grown by $133.3 million, or more than 25 percent. The vast majority of taxpayers paying for this growth in county government have not seen their incomes grow by anything close to that rate.

The council has judiciously pared down the mayor’s budget proposal each year of his tenure, seeking to ensure county spending is in line with the tax base’s willingness and ability to pay. We agreed to many increases, especially to meet rising labor costs and for large-scale investments back into our community. This is a far cry from withholding money from those who need it.

It can be debated whether the annual budget ordinance has always been an ideal size. But it’s not reasonable to suggest the council has been too stingy.

The primary complaint lodged in the column is about the council’s consideration of the mayor’s submitted bills ostensibly designed to address homelessness. The homelessness legislation was divided into two packages: various budget amendments and new criminal laws.

Ultimately, the mayor couldn’t stand behind the budget amendments. Money proposed for the suggested programs was in fact needed for mandatory payroll costs. As the Mayor’s Office quietly acknowledged to the council, the administration had no other way to meet these payroll costs other than to shift this money.

The council has and continues to recognize that homelessness is a problem.

Even before an emergency was declared, under the leadership of Council Member Stacy Crivello the council forgave $4.2 million in debt that Ka Hale A Ke Ola Homeless Resource Center owed to the county. The premise behind the loan forgiveness was to allow resources to be focused on housing instead of loan repayments to the county.

In fiscal years 2015 and 2016, the council appropriated $641,000 each year specifically for homeless programs. In addition, the council approved in the fiscal year 2017 budget, which takes effect on Friday, many homeless-related expenditures. The budget appropriates $1 million for homeless programs and new homeless positions in the Department of Housing and Human Concerns.

This is in addition to over $4 million for many other social service programs that directly or indirectly assist individuals exposed to homelessness, such as Mental Health Kokua, Feed My Sheep, the Maui Food Bank, Mental Health Association in Hawaii and the Salvation Army – just to name a few.

The council referred the new criminal laws to the Policy and Intergovernmental Affairs Committee. Some of the bills have questionable legal validity, as has been reported (“ACLU opposes bills offered to address issues with homeless,” The Maui News, March 5). But I would like to see them scheduled in committee to allow for a public review and final resolution.

I have confidence the council is more than willing to continue chipping away at the homeless issue. However, the administration needs to develop a long-term strategy that is sustainable and not merely a Band-Aid fix.

Simply throwing money at a project on a whim, without taking a hard look at what is currently being provided, is destined to waste taxpayer dollars and do nothing to solve the problems. The council looks forward to the continued dialogue and being a part of the solution – like we have been for many years now.

Mahalo.

* Mike White is chair of the Maui County Council. He holds the council seat for the Paia-Haiku-Makawao residency area. “Chair’s 3 Minutes” is a weekly column to explain the latest news on county legislative matters. Go to mauicounty.us for more information.


----------



## DeniseM

I received a canned, off-topic response to my request to see a copy of the Maui tax bill. I send a 2nd request and asked them not to send me a canned email.



> Thank you for contacting Vistana Management, Inc.
> 
> This correspondence comes as a follow-up and response to your recent email communication. Thank you for your inquiry surrounding your vacation ownership located at The Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort.
> 
> Bills for the special assessment will be mailed shortly and will be due thirty (30) days from the date of mailing.
> 
> If we can be of further assistance, our hours of operation are:
> 
> Monday - Thursday 8 a.m. to 9 p.m. Eastern time
> Friday 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. Eastern time
> 800-729-8246 - Toll free
> 407-903-4670 - Local & International
> 407-418-7771 - Facsimile
> 
> Sincerely,
> Association Management


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> I received a canned, off-topic response to my request to see a copy of the Maui tax bill. I send a 2nd request and asked them not to send me a canned email.



Did you sent to WKORV HOA email address? or just VSE Management?
This is a HOA issue - they are the ones dealing with this issue, and billing us.


----------



## DeniseM

Neither one - I emailed them through the VSE Dashboard, where you can select your resort, deed, topic, etc, and send a message pertaining to it.


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> Neither one - I emailed them through the VSE Dashboard, where you can select your resort, deed, topic, etc, and send a message pertaining to it.



iirc - they is a email link to specific HOAs under HOA specific tab.


----------



## DeniseM

DavidnRobin said:


> iirc - they is a email link to specific HOAs under HOA specific tab.



Is this on the dashboard under WHAT I OWN?


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> Is this on the dashboard under WHAT I OWN?



Sorry for late reply - finally had a chance to look.  I recall MSC having a specific link to HOAs, but cannot find on the new VSE dashboard - now just goes to single site (as you found).  Interesting, you would think that one should be able to contact an HOA BOD for specific resort issues.


----------



## DeniseM

No response to my 2nd message asking for documentation.


----------



## YYJMSP

> Bills for the special assessment will be mailed shortly and will be due thirty (30) days from the date of mailing



Still nothing online or by mail and we're going on 3 weeks since the announcement.


----------



## Xanadu

I logged into vistana.com this morning, and I see a bill for my two WKORV ownerships for this special assessment. I guess that means it is really happening.


----------



## DeniseM

Maintenance Fee Details 


*  Due Date		   08/15/2016*

  Prior Balance Due
View Prior Year Balance Detail		  $ 0.00

  Current Year Charges

Maintenance Fee(s)		  $ 2,265.20

*Tax - If Applicable		  $ 461.35*

Membership Fee - If Applicable		  $ 145.60

Other*		  $ 0.00

Interest		  $ 0.00

Late Fees		  $ 0.00

 One Ohana PAC Contribution**		  $ 10.00

Sub-Total
Current Year Charges		  $ 2,882.15
Less Payments***		  $ 2,420.80

*Total Due		  $ 461.35*


----------



## shade

Just checked maintenance fee details. I had paid the expected MF early to meet minimum spends to get CC benefits. They took the tax(if applicable) out already reducing the pre-paid amount by $461.35.


----------



## DavidnRobin

If someone doesn't pay these unfair retroactive taxes.  I assume they lose accessibility for 2017 usage. But, what about 2016 usage (i.e. reservation in 2016)?

Answered: (in Capital and Bolded letters - why are they screaming?)

• IF ASSESSMENTS ARE NOT PAID BY THE DUE DATE: A LATE FEE OF $50.00 WILL BE ASSESSED AND INTEREST WILL BE CHARGED ON THE UNPAID BALANCE AT THE RATE OF 12% PER ANNUM.
• IF YOUR ACCOUNT IS PAST DUE, THE USE RIGHTS ASSOCIATEDWITH YOUR VACATION OWNERSHIP INTEREST MAY BE OR HAVE ALREADY BEEN DENIED. IF YOUR USE RIGHTS ARE DENIED, YOU WILL NOT BE PERMITTED TO USE YOUR VACATION OWNERSHIP INTEREST, YOU WILL NOT BE PERMITTED TO MAKE A RESERVATION, AND EXISTING RESERVATIONS MAY BE CANCELLED, INCLUDING RESERVATIONS MADE USING BANKED STAROPTIONS AND RESERVATIONS MADE WITH EXTERNAL EXCHANGE COMPANIES. THE DENIAL OF YOUR USE RIGHTS MAY EXTEND TO PERSONS CLAIMING THEIR USE RIGHTS UNDER YOU, SUCH AS FAMILY MEMBERS, GUESTS AND TENANTS. YOUR USE RIGHTS WILL NOT BE RESTORED UNTIL THE TOTAL PAST DUE AMOUNT IS SATISFIED IN FULL OR UNTIL YOU PRODUCE SATISFACTORY EVIDENCE THAT THE PAST DUE AMOUNT DOES NOT EXIST. YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE FURTHER NOTICE PRIOR TO THE DENIAL OF YOUR USE RIGHTS.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Just saw additional note at bottom of SA bill... (rehash of previous email from HOA)
****

July 15, 2016

Dear Ocean Resort Villas Owner:

Accompanying this letter is the Special Assessment Bill needed due to the recent
actions of the County of Maui with regard to our Real Property Taxes. The Special
Assessment Bill is due on August 15, 2016.

In early June, the Association received a retroactive increase in the assessed property
tax valuation for our villas. Based on this reassessment, an additional property tax bill
in the amount of $6,879,537 for the years 2006, 2007 and 2008 was sent to the
Association from the County of Maui. This increased assessment values our properties
at the higher Market Value, rather than the lower Land and Construction Costs
previously used by the County of Maui for 2006-2008. We have filed formal appeals to
contest these taxes and have paid the tax bill under protest to protect our rights and
avoid the substantial penalties of a 10 percent late fee and interest of 1 percent per
month. Real property taxes are a common expense of the Association and are allocated
according to the Declaration. Even though these tax bills are for previous years, it is a
new liability that all current Owners must share as a common expense allocated
according to the Declaration. All owners of record as of June 17, 2016 with occupancy
on or before 2016 are responsible for the special assessment regardless of when you
purchased your villa.

This is a one-time Special Assessment to fund the deficit in our operating funds
account to pay for this tax bill. Because the years 2009 and after were already valued
at the higher Market Value, we do not believe this increased assessment will have any
additional impact on future maintenance fees. We feel that this reassessment of 2006-
2008 by the County of Maui is in retaliation for pursuing our current lawsuit
challenging the Real Property Tax Classification for Timeshares as a category separate
from Hotel/Resort and the unfair Millage Rate charged to all timeshare owners in
Maui.

As a Board of Directors, we have been fighting for fairness in real property taxation in
Maui for many years. On behalf of our owners, we have coordinated attendance of
hundreds of people at Maui County Council meetings; testified before the County of
Maui Council and the Hawaiian State Legislature; contested unfair assessed property
valuations; and have been involved in litigation with the County of Maui on two
separate occasions. Our first lawsuit resulted in a favorable settlement that
substantially reduced the tax assessed values of our villas and our property tax
obligation. It has been necessary to take these actions because as timeshare owners,
we have been singled out unfairly by the County of Maui charging us the highest real
property tax rate on the island. The tax rate timeshare owners pay is 64 percent
higher than Hotels; 113 percent higher than Industrial; and 530 percent higher than
the Homeowner classification. This has been a continued trend since 2005 for the
County of Maui to place an unfair tax burden on timeshare owners despite the fact
that we consume no more services than any other tax classification and substantially
contribute to the local economy, through our maintenance fees and through patronage
of Maui businesses.

This is an egregious and unprecedented maneuver by the County of Maui and as a
taxpayer and property owner you have every right to be concerned about this
disturbing action. We encourage you to express your feelings about this to the elected
officials in the County of Maui who have taken it upon themselves to unfairly burden
timeshare owners who love and support the island of Maui. Effective ways to share
your concerns include email and phone calls. If you are in Maui, you are entitled to
meet with and discuss this issue in person with Council members and are entitled to
attend Council meetings. We have included a list of Maui County officials with email
and telephone contact information.

The Board of Directors is resolute in defending your rights and will continue to work
hard on your behalf. We will continue to pursue all reasonably available legal and
administrative remedies and will provide future updates as we are able. Thank you for
your continued support.
Sincerely,
Ocean Resort Villas Vacation Owners Association Board of Directors

Maui County Council:
http://mauicounty.us

Maui County Council Mailing Address:
200 South High Street
8th Floor
Wailuku, HI 96793

Maui County Leadership:
Gladys C. Baisa 
Ph: (808) 270-7939 
Fax: (808) 270-7127 
Email: gladys.baisa@mauicounty.us 

Robert Carroll
Ph: (808) 270-7246
Fax: (808) 270-7247
Email: robert.carroll@mauicounty.us

Elle Cochran
Ph: (808) 270-5504
Fax: (808) 270-5505
Email: elle.cochran@mauicounty.us

Don Couch
Ph: (808) 270-7108
Fax: (808) 270-7119
Email: don.couch@mauicounty.us

Stacy Crivello
Ph: (808) 270-7678
Fax: (808) 270-7717
Email: stacy.crivello@mauicounty.us

Don S. Guzman
Ph: (808) 270-5501
Fax: (808) 270-5502
Email: don.guzman@mauicounty.us

Riki Hokama
Ph: (808) 270-7768
Fax: (808) 270-7848
Email: riki.hokama@mauicounty.us

Mike White
Ph: (808) 270-5507
Fax: (808) 270-5508
Email: mike.white@mauicounty.us

Michael P. Victorino
Ph: (808) 270-7760
Fax: (808) 270-7639
Email: michael.victorino@mauicounty.us

Mayor:
Alan Arakawa 
Ph: (808) 270-7855 
Fax: (808) 270-7870
Email: Mayors.Office@mauicounty.gov

Director of Finance:
Danny Agsalog 
Ph: (808) 270-7844 
Fax: (808) 270-7878 
Email: finance@mauicounty.gov


----------



## Henry M.

Just got an email today with the following:



> *Ocean Resort Villas Vacation Owners Association*​
> July 18, 2016
> 
> Dear Ocean Resort Villas Owner,
> 
> As noted in the June 24, 2016 communication from your Board of Directors, this is to inform you that the Special Assessment Bills for the real property taxes were mailed today. Click here to view the letter from your Board of Directors which is included with the billing.*
> 
> If you wish to pay your bill online, please visit your Dashboard at Vistana.com.
> 
> Log in to your account.
> Click “View Statement & Make Payment” on the “OWNERS ASSOCIATION” widget.
> Click “PAY NOW”.
> If you have VOI weeks at other resorts, from the drop down menu, first select a VOI week for The Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas.
> 
> From the “Maintenance Fee Details” page, select “Pay from a Bank Account” or a different payment option.
> 
> Should you have questions concerning your billing statement, please contact us at 800-729-8246 or 407-903-4670.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Vistana Management, Inc.


----------



## DeniseM

I have sent two messages and still have not received any documentation from VSE regarding this tax.

If you own at WKORV N/S, please log onto your Acct. and use the message function to request documentation of the tax bill from Maui.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Am I mistaken - but couldn't we previously email our HOA BOD members directly?

I know we can for WSJ-VGV - or at least Robert or Phil - but I thought there were direct emails to BOD members. In the original WSJ thread (1st page) - I posted WSJ-VGV BOD emails - maybe that is why they stopped?

Anyway... as HOA members we should be able to have at least one email contact - and not just VSE.com.

WKORV/N owners really need to band together.  WKORV/N should have it's own thread (like WSJ...) - who's in?

(Yes, I realize that we represent <1% of Owners - but the squeaky wheel...)
be that wheel...


----------



## The Haileys

emuyshondt said:


> Just got an email today with the following:



I just got it too. However, on the Owner Association page, it says balance due is $0.00. 




There is a line item for tax, 




however, but when going to the payment page, it still shows 0.00 due





I would imagine that owners not in the know from reading here on TUG are massively confused by this. Also noted, there will be periods of downtime on the Vistana site this week. Anyone know what's up with that?


----------



## DeniseM

DavidnRobin said:


> Am I mistaken - but couldn't we previously email our HOA BOD members directly?
> 
> I know we can for WSJ-VGV - or at least Robert or Phil - but I thought there were direct emails to BOD members. In the original WSJ thread (1st page) - I posted WSJ-VGV BOD emails - maybe that is why they stopped?
> 
> Anyway... as HOA members we should be able to have at least one email contact - and not just VSE.com.
> 
> WKORV/N owners really need to band together.  WKORV/N should have it's own thread (like WSJ...) - who's in?
> 
> (Yes, I realize that we represent <1% of Owners - but the squeaky wheel...)
> be that wheel...



I have never emailed the board directly, so not sure.

The email addresses have changed since VSE took over, so the previous addresses would not work.

*UP DATE - this email address is in the email that was sent out today:  kaanapali@myassociationdirect.com*


----------



## The Haileys

DeniseM said:


> I have sent two messages and still have not received any documentation from VSE regarding this tax.
> 
> If you own at WKORV N/S, please log onto your Acct. and use the message function to request documentation of the tax bill from Maui.



Are you suggesting we not make the payment until we get the documentation? And if we don't, will that affect our ability to make or keep reservations for 2017?


----------



## DeniseM

The Haileys said:


> Are you suggesting we not make the payment until we get the documentation? And if we don't, will that affect our ability to make or keep reservations for 2017?



*No I'm not *- I'm saying that the BOD should document the millions of dollars they are asking for.


----------



## YYJMSP

The Haileys said:


> I just got it too. However, on the Owner Association page, it says balance due is $0.00.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a line item for tax,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> however, but when going to the payment page, it still shows 0.00 due
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would imagine that owners not in the know from reading here on TUG are massively confused by this. Also noted, there will be periods of downtime on the Vistana site this week. Anyone know what's up with that?



hmm, just logged in, got the dashboard, clicked on View Statement & Make Payment in the Owners Association box, selected my WKORV in the drop-down box and Current Balance refreshes to say $635.71, selected my WKORVN in the drop-down box and Current Balance refreshes to say $144.85 (it's an EOY, so half of the expected amount I guess).  Clicking on Pay Now in either case takes me to the old-style screen with the right amount under Total Due, and clicking on Pay Online Now has the same amounts, so all looks good.

Did you remember to use the drop-down to change your ownership week that's currently in context?  By default, one of our SVR weeks is selected, so the current balance is showing $0, since that's the wrong ownership in context.


----------



## The Haileys

YYJMSP said:


> hmm, just logged in, got the dashboard, clicked on View Statement & Make Payment in the Owners Association box, selected my WKORV in the drop-down box and Current Balance refreshes to say $635.71, selected my WKORVN in the drop-down box and Current Balance refreshes to say $144.85 (it's an EOY, so half of the expected amount I guess).  Clicking on Pay Now in either case takes me to the old-style screen with the right amount under Total Due, and clicking on Pay Online Now has the same amounts, so all looks good.
> 
> Did you remember to use the drop-down to change your ownership week that's currently in context?  By default, one of our SVR weeks is selected, so the current balance is showing $0, since that's the wrong ownership in context.



That's our WKORV ownership, for sure. Our other VOI is Flex, and the MF for that is $674.


----------



## The Haileys

DeniseM said:


> *No I'm not *- I'm saying that the BOD should document the millions of dollars they are asking for.



Thanks, just clarifying. Typing up the request now.


----------



## YYJMSP

*Maui tax site*

So, I was bored, and had a few minutes, Google'd until I ended up here:

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140030000&show_history=1&

If I'm in the right spot, doesn't the Assessment Information section look a little strange?  Sometimes it says $0 in some of the value columns.

And the Tax Class changed from TIME SHARE (2007-2012) to HOTEL / RESORT (2013-2016).

I haven't found anything that takes you to a tax amount/paid page yet...


----------



## LisaRex

YYJMSP said:


> So, I was bored, and had a few minutes, Google'd until I ended up here:
> 
> http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140030000&show_history=1&
> 
> If I'm in the right spot, doesn't the Assessment Information section look a little strange?  Sometimes it says $0 in some of the value columns.



It does look odd.  It looks like you've stumbled upon a record that rolls up all of the units, except the hotel classification.  

In looking at each individual unit assessments, all looks in order, except that I don't see any evidence of a SA.  A few weeks ago, it listed a penalty of 10% on each of the units.  

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140030140&show_history=1&


----------



## undrpar64

Count underpar 64 in DavidnRobin


----------



## LilyF

*Frustrated*

Before I start digging through it, can someone direct me to the language regarding "Special Assessments' in the ownership paperwork? 

I find it highly irritating and suspect that the board would impose a special assessment for a bill related to retroactive taxes. Note that the board did not pay the bill, but instead, paid under protest and placed the funds in an escrow account until the matter is resolved. I wonder if owners are free to do the same with the special assessment. In addition, if the legal matter is settled in favor of the board, I wonder if the board is planning to reimburse owners the special assessment. 

Went against our better judgment in purchasing a timeshare. Lesson learned.


----------



## gregb

I went on the Vistana owners site today and the SA showed for both of my WKORN weeks.  I paid them using my AmEx card.  We picked up our second week last year, so of course we are paying the back taxes for the previous owner.  While I don't like it, I don't see any way around it.  As for complaining about the HA doing a SA to cover the unexpected costs, well what other choice did they have?  

I do question the HA's wisdom is filing what I think is a "nuisance" lawsuit based on open meetings law.  If the HA wins, the council just has to hold another "open" meeting and re-enact the assessment, so I don't see how that approach does anything except tick off the council. 

That's my 2 cents worth.  

Greg


----------



## DavidnRobin

gregb said:


> I went on the Vistana owners site today and the SA showed for both of my WKORN weeks.  I paid them using my AmEx card.  We picked up our second week last year, so of course we are paying the back taxes for the previous owner.  While I don't like it, I don't see any way around it.  As for complaining about the HA doing a SA to cover the unexpected costs, well what other choice did they have?
> 
> I do question the HA's wisdom is filing what I think is a "nuisance" lawsuit based on open meetings law.  If the HA wins, the council just has to hold another "open" meeting and re-enact the assessment, so I don't see how that approach does anything except tick off the council.
> 
> That's my 2 cents worth.
> 
> Greg



They don't have a choice, but... as always - there is a lack of transparency. Also, as mentioned, what is motivation for them to really try and fight these UNFAIR RETROACTIVE (severely) taxes once they have our money.  Hard to believe this would hold up in court - you know... when presented with facts - and on top of an already unfair property tax rate.
IMO


----------



## triangulum33

I paid.

Does the county have a physical office we could stop by to discuss in person?

Emails are easy to delete...


----------



## YYJMSP

triangulum33 said:


> I paid.
> 
> Does the county have a physical office we could stop by to discuss in person?
> 
> Emails are easy to delete...



Now there's an idea, everyone going to Maui should call in and request a meeting with the mayor or whatever lackey is available and give them an ear full, and make sure they know the time wasted talking to them could have been used to out money in to their local economy instead...


----------



## Xanadu

I paid the assessment as well. I also did not own one of my weeks at WKORV during the period covered by this assessment. I didn't appreciate the whole taxation-without-representation issue that timesharing poses, until this issue got me thinking more intently about all of this. It does indeed beg the question of how do people, who aren't represented, defend themselves? The Boston Tea Party and the Stamp Act come to mind, but times are different now.


----------



## bizaro86

tsXanadu said:


> I paid the assessment as well. I also did not own one of my weeks at WKORV during the period covered by this assessment. I didn't appreciate the whole taxation-without-representation issue that timesharing poses, until this issue got me thinking more intently about all of this. It does indeed beg the question of how do people, who aren't represented, defend themselves? The Boston Tea Party and the Stamp Act come to mind, but *times are different now*.



Indeed. The American populace are now much better armed than they were then.


----------



## Saaz124

I don't own in Hawaii but a friend owns six weeks at Diamond Resorts which is the pink building down the road.  I was telling him about the assessment and he shared that a few years ago he got hit with an $8500 tax assesment for his VOI.  So sad to see what appears to be a targeting of a particular group.


----------



## Scott & Laura

Some have commented that until locals feel they are directly affected by the tax increase that nothing will be done------I would suggest all Maui users at every purchase let the store or service provider know you would have spent more but Maui timeshare taxes kept you from it.  Whether that is true or not the constant litany of hearing that will accomplish the fact that it is affecting them directly.

How is it that a timeshare owner at Maui Ocean Club said his timeshare foresaw this reevaluation of taxes in 2010 and our WKORV and WKORVN Board didnt?

Is this special assessment Maui's way of getting even--i.e. recouping the Taxes they had to give back previously.

As to taxes their are increasing costs all governments face every year--they can reduce rates and increase valuations or reduce valuations and increase rates---at the end of the day they need to cover the Dollar Pie and only so many pockets to reach into and what does least harm to local voters---So let everyone know whatever you spend-that you would have spent more but taxes on timeshares kept you---after they hear that a 1,000 times they will hold board members accountable

Scott


----------



## LisaRex

Scott & Laura said:


> Is this special assessment Maui's way of getting even--i.e. recouping the Taxes they had to give back previously.



I know that there is definite rancor between Starwood and the County of Maui.  I think it started when Starwood pushed back after the "timeshare" classification was created and then charged an excessively high rate.  It was exacerbated when the Master Association filed a Sunshine Law complaint.  

No one really knows what went on, and who's mainly at fault, but It appears that they've ONLY targeted WKORV/N for this most recent ex post facto recalculation of taxes because I haven't read that the Marriott timeshare owners were hit with this.  If that is truly the case, then it's clear that they are trying to retaliate against Starwood.  IMO, they are going to have to either make it uniform (in which case all timeshares in existence in 2006-08 might be hit), or they're going to have to retract this reassessment. 

That being said, aside from the residents of Maui who enjoy the lowest property taxes in the nation thanks to their tourism trade, the only people who are making out on this fight are the lawyers for the Ocean Master Associations.


----------



## DavidnRobin

How is the WKORV/N HOA considered at fault by reacting and taking appropriate action against an unfair tax?

Scott/Laura - while well intended - how am I going to tell Biz owners how I am not spending money at there place of business when I am not going to their business.  Also, the awkwardness of the question of the 1st place... and generally the interaction is with some worker and not business owner.

Unfortunate Tuggers represent a low percentage of WKORV/N Owners - so most are unaware - and add on top of that - apathetic.  Owners need to get involved.

When WSJ-VGV had issues, we reached out to as many VGV owners as we could - and got real action by the HOA.  However, VGV Owners were not as numerous as WKORV/N owners - we ended up contacting about 25% of owners.  For WKORV/N - probably <1%.

The only way to accomplish this is to have access to Owners - which we do not, and VSE would unlikely ever allow this.

People who care about this should get involved - or the HOA and Maui county will take advantage of us as far as they are able.  I add the HOA because if we don't speak-up, then there will be no motivation to act once they have our money.  What is their motivation?  They do not own a high % of VOIs, and besides they rent them out and can easily make up the $ difference by increasing their rents.

IMO


----------



## LisaRex

DavidnRobin said:


> How is the WKORV/N HOA considered at fault by reacting and taking appropriate action against an unfair tax?



Because the Councilmen either don't see it as being unfair or they don't like being accused of implementing an "unfair" tax.  

Remember, the Zoning Board also tried to yank their building permit for Nanea AFTER they'd already approved it. Maui obviously lost that fight, but it appears as if they're going to retaliate against the Westin in any way they can.  Unfortunately, they hold all the power here, and there's little owners can do.


----------



## DavidnRobin

LisaRex said:


> Because the Councilmen either don't see it as being unfair or they don't like being accused of implementing an "unfair" tax.
> 
> Remember, the Zoning Board also tried to yank their building permit for Nanea AFTER they'd already approved it. Maui obviously lost that fight, but it appears as if they're going to retaliate against the Westin in any way they can.  Unfortunately, they hold all the power here, and there's little owners can do.



That is the fault and of the council based on their perception - their perception is not the fault of the WKORV/N HOAs that have very right to prevent and fight against unfair taxation.  I guess the HOA should just [take it?]


----------



## LisaRex

DavidnRobin said:


> That is the fault and of the council based on their perception - their perception is not the fault of the WKORV/N HOAs that have very right to prevent and fight against unfair taxation.  I guess the HOA should just [take it?]



IMO, they should have allowed ARDA to do the fighting.  (ARDA represents all timeshares.) Or they should have been content with their successful appeal to revalue the property.  When the Ocean Master Association sued the council personally for violating the Sunshine laws, they put a big target on WKORV.  IMO, it was a nuisance lawsuit that Maui Council responded to by introducing this latest revaluation. Once again, I believe it will ultimately repealed because it targeted WKORV alone, and wouldn't negotiate on the due date (which was all kinds of ridiculous).  But in the meantime, do you really want to up the ante again or just call a truce?  Me, I'm all for fighting the fair fight based on principle, but I'm also realistic to know that there's little to be gained by fighting City Hall and a bunch of corrupt politicians.


----------



## DavidnRobin

ARDA fights individual battle for a resort ???
That is a new one...

Nuisance lawsuit?
This is payback, because HOA stood-up?

WKORV/N HOA (us) have every right to legally oppose unfair tax rates, retroactive taxes, etc.
I do not want the HOA to back down.  The tax rate is unfair, the retro taxes are unfair (and their publicized criticism is non-factual, other than the fact that they feel this way... which seems to be the new fad, the feel=fact syndrome)

I would be more than happy to raise these opinions to a higher court where unfair practices/policies will have sunlight.
The extra $$, is small part of this IMO
I respect what you have to say (and always have...),but going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Lucky for you the buyers on record of your WKORV OF are on the hook for the extra $ - the OFD VOI tax proportion is not inconsequential.

I would like to see more transparency, but the fight in WSJ involved fewer Owners.
later - still waiting on 'SA' bill - not paying until I get in mail.


----------



## SueDonJ

Hasn't Syed posted about the unfair Maui taxes on timeshares since they were first introduced, both as to his knowledge of the proposals as well as ARDA's actions against them?  I know ARDA gets a bad rap on TUG, and no doubt they're in this fight as developer proponents, but the fact is that they're a powerful lobbying group.  If ARDA's actions for the developers also help the timeshare owners, which in this case it appears they have already to some extent and could going forward, why would anyone have a problem with their involvement?


----------



## DavidnRobin

SueDonJ said:


> Hasn't Syed posted about the unfair Maui taxes on timeshares since they were first introduced, both as to his knowledge of the proposals as well as ARDA's actions against them?  I know ARDA gets a bad rap on TUG, and no doubt they're in this fight as developer proponents, but the fact is that they're a powerful lobbying group.  If ARDA's actions for the developers also help the timeshare owners, which in this case it appears they have already to some extent and could going forward, why would anyone have a problem with their involvement?



Did I say I have a problem with ARDA's involvement?  please re-read... I did not state this.  I was talking about ARDA fighting for an individual resort - they certainly are involved in the broad timeshare program - albeit with little obvious success in the case of Maui TS property taxes.


----------



## canesfan

I support the Board's actions and hope that they keep fighting.  If we are the only group that got a SA it really is unfair, but overall TS are unfairly taxed.  After our last visit, I do feel that Maui is getting a bit overdeveloped though.  Nanea is going to push our area of the island even farther into overcrowding. Traffic was frustrating our last trip.


----------



## LisaRex

DavidnRobin said:


> ARDA fights individual battle for a resort ???
> That is a new one...



No, ARDA is appropriate because it represents ALL timeshares.  There are plenty of timeshares on Maui for them all to be concerned, but the bigger issue is if local legislators everywhere start following Maui's suit, and targeting timeshare owners to shoulder an unfair portion of the property taxes.  If it can be stopped, it should be stopped NOW before Hilton Head council gets wind of it.  



			
				DavidNRobin said:
			
		

> Nuisance lawsuit?



Yes, the Sunshine Law aka Open Meeting lawsuit was a nuisance lawsuit, because even if the Supreme Court voided the timeshare classification that they accused them of discussing behind closed doors (which was highly unlikely), the Council could simply re-enact it.  IOW, they might win the skirmish, but they didn't even make a dent in the war.  IMO, all the energy and $$ should have been reserved for fighting the war, which is that timeshare owners have no recourse against these usurious taxes. 



> WKORV/N HOA (us) have every right to legally oppose unfair tax rates, retroactive taxes, etc.



Of course they do, but why should WKORV owners fight it alone? If they win the due process argument and the timeshare classification is struck down, all the timeshares will benefit, so why allow just one group to shoulder the cost of fighting it, not to mention be targets for a bitter Council?  



> I would like to see more transparency, but the fight in WSJ involved fewer Owners.
> later - still waiting on 'SA' bill - not paying until I get in mail.



...And WSJ HOA had the unique advantage of having access to owners' addresses and emails (because they were acquired by Starwood). 

Good luck to you all.  I think Maui council should be ashamed of themselves.


----------



## SueDonJ

LisaRex said:


> No, ARDA is appropriate because it represents ALL timeshares.  There are plenty of timeshares on Maui for them all to be concerned, but the bigger issue is if local legislators everywhere start following Maui's suit, and targeting timeshare owners to shoulder an unfair portion of the property taxes.  If it can be stopped, it should be stopped NOW before Hilton Head council gets wind of it.   ...



Hilton Head has already gotten wind of it and for a few years now there have been rumblings.  So far none of them have come to fruition but they're the reason I watch what's happening at Maui so closely.


----------



## DeniseM

Has anyone received their bill in the mail?


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> Has anyone received their bill in the mail?



Nope - still waiting.  Not paying until I see mailing.


----------



## DeniseM

DavidnRobin said:


> Nope - still waiting.  Not paying until I see mailing.



How can they be due tomorrow, if the bills haven't been sent out?


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> How can they be due tomorrow, if the bills haven't been sent out?



hmmm - I have Aug 16 on Calendar

they cannot expect everyone to have received an email regarding this SA (based on my experience with SVO/VSE database, email changes, and spam filters) - it has to be by mail.


----------



## DeniseM

DavidnRobin said:


> hmmm - I have Aug 15 on Calendar



You may be right - I was thinking it was the end of July.


----------



## DeniseM

I stand corrected - the first email said:  





> Bills for the special assessment will be mailed shortly and will be due *thirty (30) days from the date of mailing*.


----------



## YYJMSP

DeniseM said:


> I stand corrected - the first email said:





So what happens when it takes 3weeks to get to you in the mail, this is the first you've heard of the SA, and you only have a week notice to pay the bill by the Aug 15 due date?


----------



## okwiater

YYJMSP said:


> So what happens when it takes 3weeks to get to you in the mail, this is the first you've heard of the SA, and you only have a week notice to pay the bill by the Aug 15 due date?



My guess is that the Net 30 terms won't be strictly enforced.


----------



## labonnevie

DeniseM said:


> Has anyone received their bill in the mail?



Received the email on July 18th saying bills were mailed today. Here it is July 30th (August 1st really) and it has not come in the mail. Wonder if the mail is coming by outrigger! :annoyed:


----------



## labonnevie

labonnevie said:


> Received the email on July 18th saying bills were mailed today. Here it is July 30th (August 1st really) and it has not come in the mail. Wonder if the mail is coming by outrigger! :annoyed:



I sent an email to Vistana (still don't like that name) saying I had not received my invoice by mail. I received the following:

This email comes in response to your recent communication regarding your vacation ownership interest at the Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas. Thank you for taking the time to share your concerns surrounding the special assessment billing, we apologize that you have not received the invoice. 

Please note, we have emailed you (separately) a copy of your Tax Assessment bill for your home resort. For payment you may contact Association Management at 1-800-729-8246 Monday - Thursday 8 AM - 9 PM and Friday 8 AM - 5 PM eastern standard time or via your owner's website at www.vistana.com. 

Thank you again and for allowing an opportunity to respond. We look forward to serving your vacation ownership needs for many years to come.

Sincerely,
Vistana Signature Experiences

They were nice enough to email me my invoices. 

Due date is August 31st with a $50 late penalty and 12% APR interest.

Has anyone received an invoice by mail?


----------



## The Haileys

labonnevie said:


> Has anyone received an invoice by mail?



Nope, and further, it shows that I am paid in full. 

The tax assessment is in there, but it's marked as paid.


----------



## Pedro

*Received invoice by mail*



DeniseM said:


> Has anyone received their bill in the mail?



I received my invoice by mail this morning.  It was postmarked on August 3rd from Fort Lauderdale.  The invoice states a due date of August 31st - not quite 30 days from the mailing date.


----------



## YYJMSP

*Date change?*

The statements were posted online with a date of Jul 15 with a due date of Aug 15

Looks like there are updated statements online with a date of Jul 31 and a due date of Aug 31.  The letter attached to these still references a due date of Aug 15, but the rest looks the same.


----------



## canesfan

Mine finally arrived today. Obviously they aren't in a rush.


----------



## wannagotoo

Mine arrived today also. Billing date of July 31 (postmark date of August 3), due date of August 31.


----------



## Denise L

Mine arrived in California yesterday, 8/8.  I haven't opened them yet .


----------



## wannagotoo

Just to confirm: If I pay all (4) of these on line using the Starwood AmEx, I will get double points, right?  I have read this thread but with all the changes I wasn't sure.  TIA


----------



## DeniseM

wannagotoo said:


> Just to confirm: If I pay all (4) of these on line using the Starwood AmEx, I will get double points, right?  I have read this thread but with all the changes I wasn't sure.  TIA



Yes, you will.


----------



## TUGBrian

saw this in a related story...

http://mauinews.com/page/content.de...per-PAC-drops--43K-on-Keith-Regan.html?nav=10


----------



## DavidnRobin

TUGBrian said:


> saw this in a related story...
> 
> http://mauinews.com/page/content.de...per-PAC-drops--43K-on-Keith-Regan.html?nav=10



Link requires payment to subscribe to view article


----------



## TUGBrian

bah, it didnt last night when i looked at it...how annoying.

basically it mentioned some sort of collection of Timeshare owners that have formed a PAC were throwing their support (money) behind a gentleman by the name of Keith Regan who is running for a city council spot.

one can assume that Mr. Regan is not in favor of the new tax law?


----------



## DeniseM

It's just a one paragraph story - no additional Info.


----------



## LisaRex

TUGBrian said:


> bah, it didnt last night when i looked at it...how annoying.



Another poster showed me how to bypass this.  Google "Maui News Keith Regan" and it'll link you to the article without the annoying pop-up block.

I also found that clearing cookies or using a private browsing session allows me to read an article or two before it blocks me.


----------



## The Haileys

Just got this email: (still no paper bill here, and my account shows paid in full, nothing due) 



> August 11, 2016
> 
> Dear Valued Owner,
> 
> This is to inform you that the correct due date for the Special Assessment Bill for the Maui County real property taxes is August 31, 2016.
> 
> The cover letter you received with the statement indicated a due date of August 15, 2016; however, there was an unforeseen delay in the billing and mailing of the statements and the actual due date was extended to August 31, 2016.
> 
> We apologize for any confusion this may have caused. Once again, the Special Assessment Bill is due on August 31, 2016.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Vistana Management, Inc.


----------



## TUGBrian

ok this might work

https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa...VuOlVT&usg=AFQjCNFFiTh0rzqyMIt41ZWcEst6Hd84Uw

if you wait a few seconds after clicking this link, the "subscribe" button will go away and the full article will appear (at least it does for me)


----------



## DeniseM

I was able to see the full story with this link:

http://www.mauinews.com/page/conten...per-PAC-drops--43K-on-Keith-Regan.html?nav=10

The PAC is the One Ohana Pac, and here is a little info. about them, from a different article:



> “Our homeowners want to express to the entire Maui County community that we’re with them 100%.,” said Grant Gillham, the executive director of the One Ohana PAC, the Kā‘anapali Ocean Resort Villas Homeowners’ political organization. “Our commitment to the Maui is strong and growing stronger as our organization continues to expand. We want to do more to help make Maui great.”
> 
> The Kā‘anapali Ocean Resort Villas Homeowners Association is made up of over 25,000 timeshare owners from all over the country. The resort employs hundreds of Maui residents.


----------



## Henry M.

Here's the article:



> *Local time-share super PAC drops $43K on Keith Regan*
> _Campaign finance reports show which candidates in Maui County garnered the most favor from super PACs_
> 
> 
> A super PAC of Maui time-share owners has spent more than $43,000 to support Keith Regan, who is running for one of the two open Maui County Council seats, according to campaign spending reports filed last week.
> 
> The One Ohana PAC reported spending the money on radio and online ads and on media consulting services in the past seven months in support of Regan, Maui County's managing director. He is running for the Wailuku, Waihee and Waikapu council residency seat, being vacated by Mike Victorino because of term limits.
> 
> By law, super PACs can have no connection to candidates, who have no control over super PAC doings. Candidates do not directly receive funding from super PACs.
> 
> In the primary election Saturday, Regan faces former Maui County Council Member Dain Kane; former firefighter and police officer Joe Blackburn; community activist Alika Atay and Maui County Recycling Coordinator Hana Steel.
> 
> Other super PACs supporting Maui County candidates are S.A.F.E or Sustainable Action Fund for the Environment and Hawaii Center for Food Safety Action Fund, according to the state Campaign Spending Commission website.
> 
> The super PACs had a Wednesday deadline to file their spending reports for Jan. 1 to July 29 with the commission.
> 
> In 2014, One Ohana PAC, known then as Maui Timeshare Ohana, spent at least $74,000 in endorsing first-time political candidate Ka'ala Buenconsejo, who was running against incumbent Council Member Elle Cochran. Buenconsejo currently is the director of the county Department of Parks and Recreation and lost his run to Cochran for the West Maui residency seat.
> 
> The PAC also spent money to support victorious Council Member Mike White and Joe Pontanilla, who lost to incumbent Don Guzman for the Kahului residency council seat, in that election.
> 
> Time-share owners and their representatives have long sought tax relief from the county, saying they contribute millions per year to the county and are part-time Maui residents, similar to condominium owners. However, they pay more than five times the homeowner property tax rate.
> 
> One Ohana PAC also is supporting Yuki Lei Sugimura, who is seeking the open Pukalani, Kula, Ulupalakua council residency seat being vacated by Gladys Baisa due to term limits.
> 
> One Ohana spent $6,600 on radio and online advertising and on voice-over and consulting fees for both Regan's and Sugimura's campaigns in July. The July expenditures for both candidates were listed together and not separately.
> 
> In Saturday's primary, Sugimura, an event planner and small business owner, faces kumu hula and community leader Napua Greig-Nakasone, Women Helping Women Executive Director Stacey Moniz and Maui Arts & Cultural Center Events Manager Eric Molina.
> 
> The top two candidates will advance to the general election in November.
> 
> Another PAC, S.A.F.E., spent $19,000 on a mailer and postage for Maui County Council, Maui County state House candidates and three Office of Hawaiian Affairs Trustees candidates. Mark Sheehan, a Maui community activist, is listed as the chairman for the committee.
> 
> S.A.F.E.'s website says the super PAC "fosters a spirited 'right to environmental and community health' platform that directly addresses health, land and legal implications in the state of Hawaii - which has no laws or regulations on genetically engineered crops and growing practices.
> 
> "Its mission is to empower a growing base of well-informed citizens and legislators to change the way we utilize our natural resources."
> 
> S.A.F.E. noted that it is a sister organization to the SHAKA Movement. SHAKA, which stands for Sustainable Hawaiian Agriculture for the Keiki and the Aina, led Maui's first successful voter initiative in 2014. The initiative, which garnered a slight majority of voters, called for a moratorium on farming of genetically modified organisms. It was struck down in June 2015 by a U.S. district judge and is currently before the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.
> 
> Atay was one of the leaders of the SHAKA Movement and was included in the mailer by S.A.F.E. Others endorsed on the mailer and their races follow: Trinette Furtado, Makawao, Haiku and Paia residency council seat; Nakasone; Richard DeLeon and Kelly King, both running for the South Maui council residency seat; Richard Abbett, Democrat, House District 8; Rep. Kaniela Ing, Democrat, House District 11; Tiare Lawrence, Democrat, House District 12; Alex Haller, Democrat, House District 13; Council Member Elle Cochran, West Maui residency seat; Council Member Don Guzman, Kahului residency seat; Shane Sinenci, East Maui council residency seat; Keani Rawlins Fernandez, Molokai council residency seat and Gabe Johnson, Lanai council residency seat.
> 
> The super PAC Hawaii Center for Food Safety Action Fund has spent $1,838 on a postcard mailer in support of Lawrence, who is battling Democratic incumbent Kyle Yamashita.
> 
> According to its website, the Hawaii Center for Food Safety Action Fund "is committed to protecting human health and the environment in Hawaii from potentially harmful industrial farming practices and by promoting organic and other forms of sustainable agriculture." To accomplish its mission, Hawaii needs to elect "officials who will stand up to biotech and agrochemical companies and support local and sustainable farming practices in Hawaii."


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> I was able to see the full story with this link:
> 
> http://www.mauinews.com/page/conten...per-PAC-drops--43K-on-Keith-Regan.html?nav=10
> 
> The PAC is the One Ohana Pac, and here is a little info. about them, from a different article:



Glad to hear someone/anyone come to support of TS owners.


----------



## mdt13

*New Here and Not Too Happy*

I discovered this message board after Googling on Vistana and Maui Lawsuit. 

We just bought our timeshare last year for every other year and haven't even used it. Suddenly we've been hit with a retroactive tax from before we even owned. Strikes me as somehow illegal. Certainly unfair.

Talk about buyer's remorse!


----------



## TUGBrian

mdt13 said:


> I discovered this message board after Googling on Vistana and Maui Lawsuit.
> 
> We just bought our timeshare last year for every other year and haven't even used it. Suddenly we've been hit with a retroactive tax from before we even owned. Strikes me as somehow illegal. Certainly unfair.
> 
> Talk about buyer's remorse!



welcome to TUG, sorry it isnt under better circumstances!


----------



## okwiater

mdt13 said:


> I discovered this message board after Googling on Vistana and Maui Lawsuit.
> 
> We just bought our timeshare last year for every other year and haven't even used it. Suddenly we've been hit with a retroactive tax from before we even owned. Strikes me as somehow illegal. Certainly unfair.
> 
> Talk about buyer's remorse!



If you bought it from the developer, I would try to get them to pay for it. Although they're not legally obligated to, your situation is pretty compelling, especially if they hope to ever sell you another timeshare. If you bought it resale, your best bet is to just pay the bill and ease the sting by thinking about how much money you saved by not buying from the developer.


----------



## TUGBrian

another article from the same source regarding the group fighting the tax increase

https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa...VuOlVT&usg=AFQjCNFYyIaAsjm-pak_uJGCR7umN6rGew


----------



## DeniseM

Doncha' love how the Council is trying to separate themselves from the decision - as if it has nothing to do with them:



> According to county officials, the assessment is only for two timeshare associations and is being done at their attorneys’ request. “*The assessments are being done by the Department of Finance, not the council*,” county officials said.   “No other timeshare units or tax categories are impacted,” the statement read.



Apparently, the Department of Finance has gone rogue!


----------



## LisaRex

TUGBrian said:


> another article from the same source regarding the group fighting the tax increase
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa...VuOlVT&usg=AFQjCNFYyIaAsjm-pak_uJGCR7umN6rGew



More importantly, you can gather from the 6 comments below that article that Mauians do not support the PAC at all. What little sympathy timeshare owners might have enjoyed due to the obvious unfairness of targeting a single group is being overwhelmed by negative opinion about the PAC's tactics. 

A perfect example is John Durkin's response: 
"Finally, to our candidates remember, time share owners don't vote. But we do."

Yup. So glad I sold my Maui timeshare.  Instead of welcoming us, the Council treated us like common thieves.  Aloha spirit? Ha!


----------



## mdt13

okwiater said:


> If you bought it from the developer, I would try to get them to pay for it. Although they're not legally obligated to, your situation is pretty compelling, especially if they hope to ever sell you another timeshare. If you bought it resale, your best bet is to just pay the bill and ease the sting by thinking about how much money you saved by not buying from the developer.



I bought directly. I'm trying to figure out who to contact and how to negotiate some sort of concession. 
Any suggestions are certainly welcome.


----------



## DeniseM

mdt13 said:


> I bought directly. I'm trying to figure out who to contact and how to negotiate some sort of concession.
> Any suggestions are certainly welcome.



I'm sorry - but this is not going to happen.  You should just pay it.


----------



## mdt13

DeniseM said:


> I'm sorry - but this is not going to happen.  You should just pay it.


Perhaps you're right,  but it can't hurt to try.


----------



## DeniseM

mdt13 said:


> Perhaps you're right,  but it can't hurt to try.



Here is the deal:  Remember that Vistana does not own the resort - they are just the *management company.  *

So your request would have to go to the BOD, and if they pay it (they won't) that means that it has to be added to the budget, which means that eventually, other OWNERS would have to pay it for you - just as if someone defaulted on the payment.


----------



## mdt13

DeniseM said:


> Here is the deal:  Remember that Vistana does not own the resort - they are just the *management company.  *
> 
> So your request would have to go to the BOD, and if they pay it (they won't) that means that it has to be added to the budget, which means that eventually, other OWNERS would have to pay it for you - just as if someone defaulted on the payment.


Fair enough,  but I'm more focused on weedling some sort of freebies out of the resort. Soft costs for extra days,  upgrades, services. Appeal to sense of fairness from the staff closer to customer rather than the faceless corporation.


----------



## DeniseM

mdt13 said:


> Fair enough,  but I'm more focused on weedling some sort of freebies out of the resort. Soft costs for extra days,  upgrades, services. Appeal to sense of fairness from the staff closer to customer rather than the faceless corporation.



I'm sorry, but this just does not happen.  Right now, they are being bombarded by unhappy owners, there is no reason for them to grant the request of one owner for special consideration.


----------



## mdt13

DeniseM said:


> I'm sorry, but this just does not happen.


Seriously? I guess my only alternative is to sit in the sales area and warn potential victims.


----------



## DeniseM

mdt13 said:


> Seriously? I guess my only alternative is to sit in the sales area and warn potential victims.



Sales and resort management are two completely different entities.  Sales does not have the ability to offer you special treatment from resort management.  I'm sorry, but your expectations are unrealistic.


----------



## mdt13

Being made to pay taxes on property I didn't own for the taxation period is unrealistic as well. 

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


----------



## DeniseM

mdt13 said:


> Being made to pay taxes on property I didn't own for the taxation period is unrealistic as well.



Good luck to you - please let us know how it turns out.


----------



## triangulum33

*Just recieved an email from Maui County:
*

_Dear Ocean Resort Timeshare owners (and any other interested parties) -

Various county agencies, to include the Real Property Assessment Division, the Maui County

Council, the Mayor's Office, and the Department of Corporation have received your many

communications regarding phone calls, e-Mails, and the tax bill you received from your vacation

owners association at the Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas, related to and regarding an

amended real property tax assessment which the County of Maui has sent to your vacation

owners associations. The County of Maui has also become aware of a Facebook ad you may

have seen, and robo-calls you may have received as related to the assessment.

We do not know if you are aware that your vacation owners timeshare associations have brought

two lawsuits against the County of Maui as related to past real property taxes assessed by the

Real Property Assessment Division. You vacation owners timeshare associations have alleged

and are seeking purported damages of $30 million, purportedly on behalf of their members as the

purported difference in taxes previously assessed from at least 2005 to the present in one of those

lawsuits. The assessment was made by the Real Property Assessment Division of the

Department of Finance, not the Maui County Council. The assessment is only as to the Ocean

Resort Villas and Ocean Resort Villas North timeshare associations.

Given that there is pending litigation indirectly related to the matters about which you have

apparently called and/or written to express concern, and given your vacation owners associations

are represented by counsel, the County of Maui respectfully directs you to that counsel for

answers to your questions, comments, and concerns. Their contact number is on the letterhead of

the first correspondence attached hereto.

That being said, your concerns are certainly appreciated by the County of Maui. Therefore, we

feel it appropriate to send to you the attached correspondences, which are not confidential and

which may answer and address the questions, comments, and concerns you have had for the Real

Property Assessment Division, the Maui County Council, the Mayor's Office, and the

Department of Corporation Counsel. The bottom line is, your vacation owners associations have

taken the position the county was required to re-assess the back taxes, in lieu of pursuing the

amounts as claims in the lawsuits which your associations already had on file. See,

Plaintiffs/Counterclaim Defendants Ocean Resort Villas Vacation Owners Association and

Ocean Resort Villas North Vacation Owners Association's Motion to Dismiss Defendant County

of Maui's Counterclaim for Set-Off and/or Damages, et seq., filed November 30, 2015, attached

hereto.

Otherwise, as the assessments have been appealed to the Board of Review, we again state it

would be more appropriate for you to please direct any further questions, comments, or concerns

you may have regarding the pending assessments to your vacation owners association and/or its

lawyers.

Mahalo,

Dept. of the Corporation Counsel

County of Maui_

Link to legal document


:-(


----------



## canesfan

We know now that we are the only timeshares that are getting assessed with these back taxes.  I don't agree with the PAC way of trying to get Maui residents to side with them, only angered the board more.  But it is also clear that they are targeting us and know we can do little about it since we can't vote.


----------



## DavidnRobin

here you go...

Dear Ocean Resort Timeshare owners (and any other interested parties) -
Various county agencies, to include the Real Property Assessment Division, the Maui County Council, the Mayor's Office, and the Department of Corporation have received your many communications regarding phone calls, e-Mails, and the tax bill you received from your vacation owners association at the Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas, related to and regarding an amended real property tax assessment which the County of Maui has sent to your vacation owners associations. The County of Maui has also become aware of a Facebook ad you may have seen, and robo-calls you may have received as related to the assessment.
We do not know if you are aware that your vacation owners timeshare associations have brought two lawsuits against the County of Maui as related to past real property taxes assessed by the Real Property Assessment Division. You vacation owners timeshare associations have alleged and are seeking purported damages of $30 million, purportedly on behalf of their members as the purported difference in taxes previously assessed from at least 2005 to the present in one of those lawsuits. The assessment was made by the Real Property Assessment Division of the Department of Finance, not the Maui County Council. The assessment is only as to the Ocean Resort Villas and Ocean Resort Villas North timeshare associations.
Given that there is pending litigation indirectly related to the matters about which you have apparently called and/or written to express concern, and given your vacation owners associations are represented by counsel, the County of Maui respectfully directs you to that counsel for answers to your questions, comments, and concerns. Their contact number is on the letterhead of the first correspondence attached hereto.
That being said, your concerns are certainly appreciated by the County of Maui. Therefore, we feel it appropriate to send to you the attached correspondences, which are not confidential and which may answer and address the questions, comments, and concerns you have had for the Real Property Assessment Division, the Maui County Council, the Mayor's Office, and the Department of Corporation Counsel. The bottom line is, your vacation owners associations have taken the position the county was required to re-assess the back taxes, in lieu of pursuing the amounts as claims in the lawsuits which your associations already had on file. See, Plaintiffs/Counterclaim Defendants Ocean Resort Villas Vacation Owners Association and Ocean Resort Villas North Vacation Owners Association's Motion to Dismiss Defendant County of Maui's Counterclaim for Set-Off and/or Damages, et seq., filed November 30, 2015, attached hereto.
Otherwise, as the assessments have been appealed to the Board of Review, we again state it would be more appropriate for you to please direct any further questions, comments, or concerns you may have regarding the pending assessments to your vacation owners association and/or its lawyers.
Mahalo,
Dept. of the Corporation Counsel County of Maui


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## pacman777

DavidnRobin said:


> here you go...
> 
> Dear Ocean Resort Timeshare owners (and any other interested parties) -
> Various county agencies, to include the Real Property Assessment Division, the Maui County Council, the Mayor's Office, and the Department of Corporation have received your many communications regarding phone calls, e-Mails, and the tax bill you received from your vacation owners association at the Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas, related to and regarding an amended real property tax assessment which the County of Maui has sent to your vacation owners associations. The County of Maui has also become aware of a Facebook ad you may have seen, and robo-calls you may have received as related to the assessment.
> We do not know if you are aware that your vacation owners timeshare associations have brought two lawsuits against the County of Maui as related to past real property taxes assessed by the Real Property Assessment Division. You vacation owners timeshare associations have alleged and are seeking purported damages of $30 million, purportedly on behalf of their members as the purported difference in taxes previously assessed from at least 2005 to the present in one of those lawsuits. The assessment was made by the Real Property Assessment Division of the Department of Finance, not the Maui County Council. The assessment is only as to the Ocean Resort Villas and Ocean Resort Villas North timeshare associations.
> Given that there is pending litigation indirectly related to the matters about which you have apparently called and/or written to express concern, and given your vacation owners associations are represented by counsel, the County of Maui respectfully directs you to that counsel for answers to your questions, comments, and concerns. Their contact number is on the letterhead of the first correspondence attached hereto.
> That being said, your concerns are certainly appreciated by the County of Maui. Therefore, we feel it appropriate to send to you the attached correspondences, which are not confidential and which may answer and address the questions, comments, and concerns you have had for the Real Property Assessment Division, the Maui County Council, the Mayor's Office, and the Department of Corporation Counsel. The bottom line is, your vacation owners associations have taken the position the county was required to re-assess the back taxes, in lieu of pursuing the amounts as claims in the lawsuits which your associations already had on file. See, Plaintiffs/Counterclaim Defendants Ocean Resort Villas Vacation Owners Association and Ocean Resort Villas North Vacation Owners Association's Motion to Dismiss Defendant County of Maui's Counterclaim for Set-Off and/or Damages, et seq., filed November 30, 2015, attached hereto.
> Otherwise, as the assessments have been appealed to the Board of Review, we again state it would be more appropriate for you to please direct any further questions, comments, or concerns you may have regarding the pending assessments to your vacation owners association and/or its lawyers.
> Mahalo,
> Dept. of the Corporation Counsel County of Maui
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Not very clearly worded and some type os in the letter like "you" instead of "your". Figured they would proofread it closely before sending out. I'm not an owner here and have been checking this thread once in awhile but it sounds like a big FU to WKORVs OA for filing a lawsuit on property tax valuations so we'll teach you a lesson and reassess the values and make you pay???


----------



## okwiater

pacman777 said:


> Not very clearly worded and some type os in the letter like "you" instead of "your". Figured they would proofread it closely before sending out. I'm not an owner here and have been checking this thread once in awhile but it sounds like a big FU to WKORVs OA for filing a lawsuit on property tax valuations so we'll teach you a lesson and reassess the values and make you pay???



I think it was a mistake for them to send this letter. It makes it quite clear that the retroactive assessment is retaliatory WRT the lawsuit.

So glad I don't own in Hawaii...


----------



## okwiater

mdt13 said:


> Being made to pay taxes on property I didn't own for the taxation period is unrealistic as well.



mdt13, DeniseM is just setting low expectations for you. As she made clear, sales and the management company are totally different entities, and you won't get any relief from the management company.

I would look up the paperwork from your sales contract and try to get a concession from the sales department. Be calm and respectful but firm. I still wouldn't go in _expecting_ a positive outcome, but you can make clear how unfair it is for you to be charged ancient back taxes on a property you just bought  from a reputable company for a large amount of money and haven't even used yet. You can also make clear that your treatment from them will directly impact whether you would consider adding additional ownerships to your portfolio.

As long as you go in expecting nothing, it can't hurt to try. Speaking as someone who has bought 4 ownerships from SVO, if I had been shafted with back taxes in the manner you were, and the sales department didn't make it right, I would never consider buying another.


----------



## Quadmaniac

okwiater said:


> I would look up the paperwork from your sales contract and try to get a concession from the sales department...... You can also make clear that your treatment from them will directly impact whether you would consider adding additional ownerships to your portfolio.
> 
> ...... if I had been shafted with back taxes in the manner you were, and the sales department didn't make it right, I would never consider buying another.



I don't think it matters how respectful you are, the sales department can't do anything about it nor will they make any concessions for you as they have no control over taxes. They may give you a slightly lower than list price for a unit, but they still win as they would be making money off your purchase and you still lose buying from the developer vs. resale by paying retail vs resale.

The reality is that they already have your money from the units you purchased and you are locked into the MF, so not a lot you can come back on them with.


----------



## okwiater

Quadmaniac said:


> I don't think it matters how respectful you are, the sales department can't do anything about it nor will they make any concessions for you as they have no control over taxes. They may give you a slightly lower than list price for a unit, but they still win as they would be making money off your purchase and you still lose buying from the developer vs. resale by paying retail vs resale.
> 
> The reality is that they already have your money from the units you purchased and you are locked into the MF, so not a lot you can come back on them with.



I'm confused. Are you saying don't even bother trying?


----------



## Quadmaniac

okwiater said:


> I'm confused. Are you saying don't even bother trying?



Essentially yes as you're barking up the wrong tree


----------



## okwiater

Quadmaniac said:


> Essentially yes as you're barking up the wrong tree



There are plenty of instances where the sales department has accepted rescissions even when they were not delivered in strict accordance with the terms of the contract. Should those people also not have bothered trying?


----------



## DeniseM

okwiater said:


> There are plenty of instances where the sales department has accepted *rescissions* even when they were not delivered in strict accordance with the terms of the contract. Should those people also not have bothered trying?



You are comparing apples and oranges.  

ALL owners at the resort are subject to this tax and many of them were not owners during the years when the tax is being levied - how can they possibly give concessions to some owners and not others?

IMNSHO - trying to get sales to do something about this is a waste of precious vacation time that will only result in frustration.  That's not how I like to spend my vacations.  YMMV

Also - Remember that sales deals with angry, unhappy people every day - they will be prepared to rebuff every argument.


----------



## okwiater

DeniseM said:


> You are comparing apples and oranges.
> 
> ALL owners at the resort are subject to this tax and many of them were not owners during the years when the tax is being levied - how can they possibly give concessions to some owners and not others?



Yes, but MOST owners did not buy recently since the resort is sold out. MOST owners actually got to use their ownerships during the years that are being retroactively assessed. MOST owners are not being hit with the tax prior to even having used their ownerships a single time.



DeniseM said:


> IMNSHO - trying to get sales to do something about this is a waste of precious vacation time that will only result in frustration.  That's not how I like to spend my vacations.  YMMV



It sounded like mdt13 was already frustrated, so I'm not sure contacting sales would increase frustration. If it were me, I would make at least a modest effort to have my situation remedied. At the end of the day, we're only talking about a few hundred dollars, but to me it would certainly be worth at least an e-mail, a letter, or a phone call. In no way did I hint that mdt13 was _likely_ to receive a favorable response.


----------



## DeniseM

okwiater said:


> Yes, but MOST owners did not buy recently since the resort is sold out. MOST owners actually got to use their ownerships during the years that are being retroactively assessed. MOST owners are not being hit with the tax prior to even having used their ownerships a single time.



This is not correct - this goes back 10 years and for most of that time, the resort was still in active sales.

In the 10 years since the tax years in question, MANY owners have bought from the resort and on the resale market, and MANY owners will be paying taxes on years when they didn't own at the resort.  So there are MANY owners in the same position as the OP.


----------



## canesfan

I agree with Okiwater. It's worth a phone call or letter to sales. Maybe they will throw some Starpoints in there. I doubt if the taxes will be waived but I'd take a few free hotel stays for the effort.


----------



## DeniseM

canesfan said:


> I agree with Okiwater. It's worth a phone call or letter to sales. Maybe they will throw some *Starpoints* in there. I doubt if the taxes will be waived but I'd take a few free hotel stays for the effort.



Starpoints are *hotel points* - VSE and Starwood's hotel branch are now completely separate entities, owned by different companies.  

Why would Starwood's hotel branch give hotel points to a disgruntled timeshare owner?

Are they going to give hotel points to *all the owners* who didn't own during the tax years?

This is a futile mission - but I know that some people enjoy the battle, so good luck to you anyway.


----------



## Quadmaniac

okwiater said:


> There are plenty of instances where the sales department has accepted rescissions even when they were not delivered in strict accordance with the terms of the contract. Should those people also not have bothered trying?



But here is the difference - recession is based upon the sale they conducted with the client. They are both parties to the event and in their control.

The tax being assessed is done by Maui and sales are not a party to the action. This is being done to the resort. 

There is a carbon tax being implemented by our current government on fuel, so should I complain to my dealership about my vehicle because I have to pay a carbon tax I didn't anticipate and they didn't tell me about ? I've owned vehicles from them for years, so they should pay the tax for me ? Does that sound reasonable and logical that they're going to do something about it ?


----------



## canesfan

I'm very well aware what Starpoints are. Last time I checked sales is still authorized to use them as a sales tool. We still have an agreement between Starwood & Vistana. 
I'm just saying it does hurt to ask considering it was a recent sale.


----------



## DeniseM

canesfan said:


> I'm very well aware what Starpoints are. Last time I checked sales is still authorized to use them as a sales tool. We still have an agreement between Starwood & Vistana.
> I'm just saying it does hurt to ask considering it was a recent sale.



Because it's simply not logical to expect compensation, and the sales department has zero motivation to expend funds on a past sale.

AND - it sets a dangerous precedent.


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## pacman777

I would be looking into the reason why the owners association even filed a lawsuit in the first place for valuation assessment that goes back to 2000s. Those taxes were already paid for by the then current owners. Was the Association getting greedy trying to claim tax assessments were inflated back then. What was their plan for the $30m if they did win and collect. Would they have shared it with current owners? Doubt it. They probably would given it to the developer or Starwood since they were the majority owners back then since sales were getting started.  Seems like the owners association kicked a hornet's nest filing the lawsuit and now all current owners are getting strung


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## DeniseM

The WKORV-N/S boards are completely under the thumb of Starwood - now Vistana.  So the real question is: Why did _Starwood_ file the lawsuits?


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## canesfan

Quadmaniac said:


> But here is the difference - recession is based upon the sale they conducted with the client. They are both parties to the event and in their control.
> 
> 
> 
> The tax being assessed is done by Maui and sales are not a party to the action. This is being done to the resort.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a carbon tax being implemented by our current government on fuel, so should I complain to my dealership about my vehicle because I have to pay a carbon tax I didn't anticipate and they didn't tell me about ? I've owned vehicles from them for years, so they should pay the tax for me ? Does that sound reasonable and logical that they're going to do something about it ?





The difference here would be if you were getting that carbon tax because you only bought it at that one dealership.  Remember we are the only timeshare group paying these retro taxes.


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## Quadmaniac

canesfan said:


> The difference here would be if you were getting that carbon tax because you only bought it at that one dealership.  Remember we are the only timeshare group paying these retro taxes.



So it's the dealer's fault or under their control to change or prevent so they should compensate me for that ? Doesn't make sense. They're not the ones imposing it, the state is.

That's not any different from a luxury tax - if you own the item, and the impose a tax on it, you have no choice but to pay it. The dealer is not going to compensate you for something that was imposed on them. Just plain silliness. I could see them rolling their eyes when you leave.


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## okwiater

It's funny how vigorously DeniseM and Quadmaniac are arguing against mdt13 contacting Sales. Not sure what's in it for them.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue any longer because it's self-evident that following DeniseM's and Quadmaniac's advice has a 0% chance of achieving any relief, whereas following my advice has an admittedly small, but non-zero chance. It's up to mdt13 whether or not to give it the ol' college try.


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## DeniseM

okwiater said:


> It's funny how vigorously DeniseM and Quadmaniac are arguing against mdt13 contacting Sales. Not sure what's in it for them.



This is not my first rodeo with Starwood/Vistana.

_Personally_, I don't care whether the OP contacts them or not - but those of you who are encouraging him are using illogical arguments to support your position.

Look out for the windmill!  

***A more _productive_ action would be to contact the local Maui officials with brief and logical communications expressing your displeasure with their actions.  It may have no _immediate_ impact, but I think it is important for Maui owners to stand up in large numbers to influence long-term public policies on Maui.  
_
Hopefully, all of you have already done that._


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## Quadmaniac

okwiater said:


> It's funny how vigorously DeniseM and Quadmaniac are arguing against mdt13 contacting Sales. Not sure what's in it for them.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not going to argue any longer because it's self-evident that following DeniseM's and Quadmaniac's advice has a 0% chance of achieving any relief, whereas following my advice has an admittedly small, but non-zero chance. It's up to mdt13 whether or not to give it the ol' college try.



That's because your arguments and logic does not make sense. There is nothing in it for me but you and MDT13 are free to do whatever you want, there is no one standing in your way. I can tell you what the outcome will be, but do go and report back how much you accomplished. I think Denise is saying the same thing, your efforts are futile. Let's say they give you a free dinner out of it, is that going to make either of you feel better ? What can they give you which they would have to give to every owner at the resort ? What is the cost to them vs a benefit to them in return ? There is no guarantee you will buy anything further.

Totally barking up the wrong tree, but the both of you are free to waste your vacation all you want in the sales office. I recommend you set up a sit in at their office during your vacation to protest the unfair re-assessment and have everyone boycott the resort. Set up a sign and sit right in front of the sales office and tell everyone passing by how badly Westin handled this. That will teach Westin to allow Maui to re-assess the property tax  :hysterical: Maybe they're refund you the money you paid to buy into the resort


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## YYJMSP

DeniseM said:


> The WKORV-N/S boards are completely under the thumb of Starwood - now Vistana.  So the real question is: Why did _Starwood_ file the lawsuits?





Wasn't this over the tax rate and classification, that timeshares should be taxed and valued like condos?


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## DeniseM

That was in response to the post below - I was just saying that the lawsuit would be something that Starwood cooked up - not the owners association - it's just a Starwood puppet.  





pacman777 said:


> I would be looking into the reason *why the owners association even filed a lawsuit* in the first place for valuation assessment that goes back to 2000s. Those taxes were already paid for by the then current owners. *Was the Association getting greedy* trying to claim tax assessments were inflated back then. What was their plan for the $30m if they did win and collect. Would they have shared it with current owners? Doubt it. They probably would given it to the developer or Starwood since they were the majority owners back then since sales were getting started.  Seems like *the owners association kicked a hornet's nest* filing the lawsuit and now all current owners are getting strung


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## triangulum33

Are you buying a week?  Then I doubt they will give you the time of day.

I'm not happy about this either, but the last thing I'm going to do is let this foul my vacation by spending _any_ time chewing on a salesman for some SP.


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## work2travel

When I went to my owner's update in July at WKORVN I was told that the money that was won was used to install new utility equipment on the property, which supposedly would reduce ongoing costs and help keep maintenance fees at current levels - seriously?!?!...


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## YYJMSP

work2travel said:


> When I went to my owner's update in July at WKORVN I was told that the money that was won was used to install new utility equipment on the property, which supposedly would reduce ongoing costs and help keep maintenance fees at current levels - seriously?!?!...



I'm here this week, so I'll take one for the team and ask...


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## PamMo

Reading through the link to the PDFs that Triangulum33 provided https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B56iNsUnXcjYMTdoYjItTmdEQ3M/view it shows the disdain officials have for WKORV/WKORVN disputing their tax assessments. Maui County portrays timeshare owners as big corporations (much easier to demonize than tens of thousands of families who work hard to save up for an expensive vacation in Hawaii) that should just shut up and pay the highest real property tax rates by far in the County. For example, does the  Maui Council really think that if we pay our property taxes through our MF's, and our HOA pays the bill directly, we owners don't pay real property taxes? 

"...Setting aside the fact that neither of the Vacation Owner's Association's respective members actually pay a real property tax assessed by the County..."


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## DeniseM

It makes you wonder if this is an out-right lie, or complete ignorance.


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## triangulum33

DeniseM said:


> It makes you wonder if this is an out-right lie, or complete ignorance.



Well, it is government...


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## labonnevie

DeniseM said:


> It makes you wonder if this is an out-right lie, or complete ignorance.


Been away for a week, sure is fun catching up on the Posts!
I received the same email others did, I am not a lawyer so it is hard for me to get much from it other than the County is really mad about our prior suit and will do anything to try to get even with us.
Hope once again that our lawyers are better than theirs!


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## wallace37

*Not holding out much hope*



labonnevie said:


> Been away for a week, sure is fun catching up on the Posts!
> I received the same email others did, I am not a lawyer so it is hard for me to get much from it other than the County is really mad about our prior suit and will do anything to try to get even with us.
> Hope once again that our lawyers are better than theirs!



Based on this prior ruling on a similar case, I'm not optimistic and hope that at least the legal fees are contingency based.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/hi-supreme-court/1411650.html


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## labonnevie

wallace37 said:


> Based on this prior ruling on a similar case, I'm not optimistic and hope that at least the legal fees are contingency based.
> 
> http://caselaw.findlaw.com/hi-supreme-court/1411650.html



I would be very happy if we were taxed at the "Hotel Resort" rate cited in this case. That is exactly the point of the lawsuit; we are unjustifiably separated from Hotel Resort rates and singled out for significant additional taxes.


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## LisaRex

labonnevie said:


> I would be very happy if we were taxed at the "Hotel Resort" rate cited in this case. That is exactly the point of the lawsuit; we are unjustifiably separated from Hotel Resort rates and singled out for significant additional taxes.



You do realize that the Gardens of Maui LOST the lawsuit, right? Based on this ruling (good find, Wallace!), I agree that it's not looking promising that WKORV will win the argument to the SC of Hawaii that the County of Maui is violating Due Process by establishing a separate property tax classification for timeshares.  (The linked lawsuit argued that the County violated Due Process by changing the Gardens of Maui (timeshare)'s property tax classification from Apartment to Hotel Resort.)  Here is what the Court's ruled:



> 1. The County of Maui has the power to set the taxation rate and classification of Appellant's time share condominium units as “Hotel Resort.”   The Hawai‘i State Constitution grants the counties all powers relating to real property taxation, including the power to set differential rates․
> 
> (snip)
> 
> 5. The County of Maui's differential tax rate structure is not an invalid exercise of its real property taxation powers.  [HRS] Chapter 246A clearly empowers the counties with the authority and ability to develop a real property tax rate structure․



However, based on the same ruling, I think that there's a reasonable argument to be made that the newly established timeshare classification (which didn't exist at the time of this lawsuit) RATES are capricious and arbitrary, and therefore a violation of due process.  (Current timeshare rate is $14.31 while the the hotel and resort rate is 8.71).  From the same ruling:  



> The County has considerable discretion in classifying taxation rates.   As long as this reclassification was not capricious nor arbitrary, the reclassification is valid․



As I've opined from the beginning, I do believe this SPECIFIC property tax retroactive assessment (that you are being billed for now via a SA) WILL ultimately be struck down, because it is clearly retaliatory and arbitrary (it only targeted 2 timeshares, and they publicly admitted t was because the Master Associations sued them), and because it was not a "modest" amount of money.  I also believe that the County may even earn itself a "Bad Council!" slap on the wrist.  From the same lawsuit:



> 2.  Retroactive tax provisions withstand due process challenges unless, in light of the “nature of the tax and the circumstances in which it was laid,” the law “is so harsh and oppressive as to transgress the constitutional limitation.”  Welch v. Henry, 305 U.S. 134, 147, 59 S.Ct. 121, 83 L.Ed. 87 (1938).
> 
> a) The County's purpose was neither illegitimate nor arbitrary.   There is no plausible contention that the County acted with an improper motive such as targeting Appellant for a particular reason.



However, no matter what, you'll still be on the hook for legal fees, and SOMEONE is funding this Regan fellow's PAC, so I'm afraid I'd say goodbye to this money.  

Oh, and I wouldn't cheer too loudly because if this is an example of how Maui council conducts themselves, this won't be the end of it.  Apparently they are getting quite a few nasty emails and letters from Owners, and I doubt they'll just sit there and be humiliated without repercussions.  So don't be surprised if suddenly WKORV's liquor license is suspended. 

Don't you just love "small town" politics?


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## jackbak

*2J*

What would happen if all timeshare owners in Maui took a one year no show position. If the property owners did the minimum maintenance to maintain the properties and charged us accordingly our position would be pretty strong. No timeshare owners revenue to Maui for a year, just saying!


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## DeniseM

jackbak said:


> What would happen if all timeshare owners in Maui took a one year no show position. If the property owners did the minimum maintenance to maintain the properties and charged us accordingly our position would be pretty strong. No timeshare owners revenue to Maui for a year, just saying!



This would never happen, but it would be interesting for the merchants and Maui powers-that-be to see the financial impact of a year without timeshare owners.


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## Maui_ed

YYJMSP said:


> I'm here this week, so I'll take one for the team and ask...


YYJMSP - did you ever get an answer to this when you asked?  Curious, more than anything, as to what the answer might have been.


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## YYJMSP

Maui_ed said:


> YYJMSP - did you ever get an answer to this when you asked?  Curious, more than anything, as to what the answer might have been.





Our sales guy was a bit out there, so I never really got to ask anything overly meaningful...


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## 3d0g

We got our 2nd notice on the "Emergency Assessment" today (contrary to ORV's claims, we never got a 1st).

Personally, I'm becoming less and less convinced ORV has the owner's best interests at heart. I think it's about time we press ORV to come to the bargaining table and settle these suits. Find a tax middle ground we and the county can live with.


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## Storm'in

Starwood/Vistana has done too little, too late.

Originally, our "infrastructure" tax increase was returned to the owner's association but, instead of sending out refund checks or crediting it to the next annual fee, they chose to pocket it into their reserve fund for future use. According to their fourth paragraph, that fund isn't accessible.
Now, once again, we pay. When that is (presumably) eventually returned to the owner's association, will they pocket it again?

Both Vistana and the owner's association do not deserve mercy.
I highly suggest all owner's hit Vistana/owner's association and the County of Maui where it hurts - boycott Maui! Owner's (and the discretionary spending they bring to the Maui economy) need to be missed. Take your ownership use elsewhere or at the very least, work together everyone to abstain from visiting the island for 2-4 weeks simultaneously every year, unknown to your resort and therefore incapable of being planned for.

It's very simple - Maui doesn't want time-share owner's and the company/corporation/developer only cares about the immediate sale. Neither receive your loyalty. Stop the complaining and act. It *was* an investment that no longer floats. Stick with it the way you are and you'll drown with it.


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## DeniseM

Please clarify what you mean by these statements:



> Originally, our "infrastructure" tax increase was returned to the owner's association but, instead of sending out refund checks or crediting it to the next annual fee, they chose to pocket it into their reserve fund for future use. According to their fourth paragraph, that fund isn't accessible.
> Now, once again, we pay. When that is (presumably) eventually returned to the owner's association, will they pocket it again?


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## Storm'in

Prior to 2005, time-shares on Maui were (property tax) classified as a resort/hotel. The rate was $8.30 per $1000 assessed value while the homeowner resident was assessed at $3.55/$1000.

In November, 2004, the Maui Mayor and County Council decided to reclassify time-shares into their own tax classification. This was due to their belief that time-shares created an unusual burden on the infrastructure of the island, specifically roads and the water/sewer system. Conjointly, Maui government also wanted to lessen or eliminate time-share development so they decided to create their own burdening system upon the owners and developers. On Jan. 1, 2005 this classification took effect. This would have been the approximate time that time-share annual fees shot up significantly, away from their usual trend.

AFTER the reclassification, Maui County commissioned a $75,000 study with Hospitality Advisors LLC, in collaboration with the University of Hawaii School of Travel Industry to examine the effects of time-shares on the infrastructure. The study, completed by June, 2006, concluded that time-shares exerted no greater effect than resorts and hotels upon the infrastructure. Maui apparently chose to disregard their paid findings that DIDN'T support their decision and kept the classification (and the money it would bring). In fiscal year 2006, time-shares were assessed $14.00/$1000, resorts and hotels $8.20/$1000 and the homeowner resident $2.50/$1000. Summarily, time-share owners were paying greater than 400% more than the resident and 65% more than the resort/hotel visitor.

Keep in mind, Starwood NEVER disclosed this information to current owners at the time. All they stated as I recall, in a letter, was that the owner would be paying more to support island infrastructure and that they were in the process of protesting it.

After several years of paying this premium, Starwood/Owner's Association informed owners by letter that they had prevailed against the County of Maui and recouped the monies. They stated they would be placing them into a reserve fund and specifically mentioned that one use for them would be for more energy-efficient lighting. The Owner's Association apparently felt entitled to the funds for whatever purpose they chose, rather than to refund the monies or at least credit them back to owners for their following annual fee.

Now, it seems, something similar if not identical is about to recur. Maui has decided to retaliate and reassess years 2006, 2007 and 2008 since these resorts, listed in the latest filed lawsuit, were only assessed as time-shares, not as condominiums as well (double taxation?). Receiving $2.1-$2.5 MILLION per year for each of those three years should have been ˜$5 MILLION each year. That's the basis for the special assessment that, presumably, at some point in the future, will be returned to the Owner's Association so they can place it back into a protected reserve account for capital plans only (as mentioned in the fourth paragraph of their letter to owners this past June).

The cycle keeps repeating itself, forcing owners to ante up everytime Maui decides to penalize time-shares.


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## DeniseM

[Clarification - the OP edited post #3 with more info. after I posted.]

I'm sorry, but re-posting your first post, does not explain what you mean.

Here is the 4th paragraph of the letter - stating that Westin is "pocketing" anything is an   inaccurate interpretation of the letter. The paragraph explains why other sources of funding to pay the taxes are not available:



> There are very few alternatives available to the Association to fund the huge budgetary deficit created by this current tax assessment.* The Association is unable to use funds set aside in its replacement reserve account as reserve funds are restricted by law and are to be used only for items within our capital reserve plan.*
> 
> *The Association is unable to borrow the funds as its ability to borrow is limited and its line of credit is much less than the tax bill.* Unfortunately, the only viable option to pay the tax bill and fund the corresponding large budgetary deficit is to levy an emergency special assessment on all Owners.



Also - You are rather late to the party - this happened 5 mos. ago.


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## DavidnRobin

DeniseM - we do appreciate you - even though we do not express it often...


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## DeniseM

DavidnRobin said:


> DeniseM - we do appreciate you - even though we do not express it often...



Thank you!  That is so nice!


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## Scott&Laura

In reading the case I do not see it as Maui against Corporations.


What I see is MAUI County needing money that used a cost to valuation rather than a market value to valuation in assessing taxes.  MAUI wants to recoup money from the error and says their error should to correct should not be denied as The developer is sophisticated and wants to take advantage of MAUI County's error.


Every year we have an opportunity to contribute to a fund that keeps track of and investigates and looks out for our interests. It is on annual fees but an optional fee. I would say this shows why to donate to the fund.

MAUI needs money and at the end of the day no matter what there are only so many payers and the pie is a defined size. SO they can raise valuations taxes are based on or they can out right increase the the tax and keep valuations low--in any event the total amount is needed for MAUI to function. Its Government that has a popular Island and if they raise Hotel taxes they chase tourists away so they tax timeshares were they are assured the owners come back every year.


Scott


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## dss

Just curious if anyone was aware of any movement on this? During our owners update last week, the sales rep said that the tax decision was reversed in our favor and we would be receiving a refund shortly. I find this hard to believe (and couldn't turn up anything with a quick search), but was hoping maybe someone here had good news??


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## DeniseM

3 little words:  Sales Reps Lie


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