# Hawaii to require 14-day quarantine of incoming air passengers [merged]



## T_R_Oglodyte

> Hawaii’s newly created Special Senate Committee on COVID-19 held its first meeting Thursday, as the state Department of Health confirmed six new cases of COVID-19.
> 
> Airport Division of the Department of Transportation agreed with the committee’s recommendation to include a new 14-day quarantine of any airline passengers and urged Governor David Ige to put the plan into action immediately.











						26 cases confirmed - The Garden Island
					

LIHUE  Hawaiis newly created Special Senate Committee on COVID-19 held its first meeting Thursday, as the state Department of Health confirmed six new cases of COVID-19.




					www.thegardenisland.com


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## rickandcindy23

Is this official.  Just wondering because I know someone who works for Redweek that has been swamped with cancellations.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

rickandcindy23 said:


> Is this official.  Just wondering because I know someone who works for Redweek that has been swamped with cancellations.


According to the article, it's awaiting a decision by the governor to implement it.


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## Poobah

This is just a strategy to keep people from coming to the islands. If you are going to be here less than 14 days why come? Why would you come here if your first two weeks was spent in quarantine? What cases there are on the islands are all directly traceable to travel off the islands. There are so many cancellations over here that the odds of bringing in the virus shrink,  but it only takes one! There are still only the two cases on Kaua’i and I am sure they would like to keep it that way.


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## critterchick

Poobah said:


> This is just a strategy to keep people from coming to the islands. If you are going to be here less than 14 days why come? Why would you come here if your first two weeks was spent in quarantine? What cases there are on the islands are all directly traceable to travel off the islands. There are so many cancellations over here that the odds of bringing in the virus shrink,  but it only takes one! There are still only the two cases on Kaua’i and I am sure they would like to keep it that way.



And where would they quarantine people?


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## Luanne

critterchick said:


> And where would they quarantine people?


I thought it was stated in the article posted, but I didn't see it.  I do remember reading somewhere that people would be quarantined in their homes or hotels.  So I assume it would be a self-quarantine and probably impossible to enforce.  I'll see if I can find the reference I read.


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## critterchick

Luanne said:


> I thought it was stated in the article posted, but I didn't see it.  I do remember reading somewhere that people would be quarantined in their homes or hotels.  So I assume it would be a self-quarantine and probably impossible to enforce.  I'll see if I can find the reference I read.



That’s rather what I thought. More style than substance, as it were.


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## Luanne

critterchick said:


> That’s rather what I thought. More style than substance, as it were.


Found the article.  I guess they are hoping people will have some common sense.  My dd had to self-quarantine for two weeks and work at home since we came home through San Francisco.  Hawaii doesn't want people coming in who may infect their population.  

https://www.khon2.com/coronavirus-2...-according-to-lieutenant-governor-josh-green/


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## TheHolleys87

Poobah said:


> There are still only the two cases on Kaua’i


Three on Kauai now, plus more new cases on other islands.








						Hawaii’s total cases of COVID-19 climbs to 56, health officials say
					

DOH officials also confirmed community spread is happening in Hawaii.




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com


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## critterchick

Luanne said:


> Found the article.  I guess they are hoping people will have some common sense.  My dd had to self-quarantine for two weeks and work at home since we came home through San Francisco.  Hawaii doesn't want people coming in who may infect their population.
> 
> https://www.khon2.com/coronavirus-2...-according-to-lieutenant-governor-josh-green/



What did she do for groceries/necessities while self-quarantined?


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## Luanne

critterchick said:


> What did she do for groceries/necessities while self-quarantined?


She lives with us.  So she is being taken care of.  If she lived alone, and in the same town as we do we would have brought them to her.  There are ways.  There is also grocery delivery, neighbors willing to help out.


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## pedro47

Is this law in effect now and when will it end?


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## Luanne

pedro47 said:


> Is this law in effect now and when will it end?


Last I heard it was a proposal and still needed approval by the governor of Hawaii.  I'll see if I can find any updates.

As of two days ago here is the status.  This is the same article I posted earlier.  If I find something more current I'll post it.  Or maybe @slip has information.

https://www.khon2.com/coronavirus-2...-according-to-lieutenant-governor-josh-green/


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## pedro47

Thanks Luanne, we have book two weeks for Hawaii this summer.
A fourteen (14) days quarantine on incoming air passengers before you can visit Hawaii. Is not a good thing for my family.


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## Luanne

pedro47 said:


> Thanks Luanne, we have book two weeks for Hawaii this summer.
> A fourteen (14) days quarantine on incoming air passengers before you can visit Hawaii. Is not a good thing for my family.


I know they are still working out the details, but from the initial article it sounded like you'd be allowed in, but then need to self-quarantine at your hotel.  So that would take up your entire trip.  I'd also be worried about how much would be back to being open.  Some Canadian friends just cancelled (well actually postponed) their dream trip to Maui in April.  She said they were refunded everything so they plan to go later on.


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## lynne

We just had our 2nd and 3rd case on the Big Island.  All three cases from visitors.


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## slip

Last I heard they were saying 30 days but I haven’t heard of it was an official ban yet.


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## TheHolleys87

Multiple reliable sites reporting DVC Aulani closing 5 PM ON March 24 through March 31.


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## controller1

TheHolleys87 said:


> Multiple reliable sites reporting DVC Aulani closing 5 PM ON March 24 through March 24.



Typo on the through date?

It appears they are closing from March 24 to March 31.


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## TheHolleys87

controller1 said:


> Typo on the through date?
> 
> It appears they are closing from March 24 to March 31.


Oops, yep, typo.  Fixed it.  Thanks.


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## rickandcindy23

I hope Hawaii can open up for business soon.  This is going to hurt the entire state.  Tourism is a huge industry for them.  I am also worried about the Disney parks and all of the people who work there.


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## Luanne

rickandcindy23 said:


> I hope Hawaii can open up for business soon.  This is going to hurt the entire state.  Tourism is a huge industry for them.  I am also worried about the Disney parks and all of the people who work there.


Not to mention all of the restaurants, small businesses, etc., etc., etc. throughout the country.


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## lynne

rickandcindy23 said:


> I hope Hawaii can open up for business soon.  This is going to hurt the entire state.  Tourism is a huge industry for them.  I am also worried about the Disney parks and all of the people who work there.



As bad as the economy will get, Hawaii does not have the medical resources to treat an epidemic - most of us who live here would rather close the state to visitors and help each other locally to get through this.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

TheHolleys87 said:


> Three on Kauai now, plus more new cases on other islands.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hawaii’s total cases of COVID-19 climbs to 56, health officials say
> 
> 
> DOH officials also confirmed community spread is happening in Hawaii.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hawaiinewsnow.com



Anyone know what you call a Maginot Line that requires airplanes ?


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## TheTimeTraveler

rickandcindy23 said:


> I hope Hawaii can open up for business soon.  This is going to hurt the entire state.  Tourism is a huge industry for them.  I am also worried about the Disney parks and all of the people who work there.




I agree.  And I believe it will hurt every other state in the USA as well as many foreign countries.




.


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## Kapolei

If we close down and avoid a massive spread then we can reopen sooner.


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## lynne

VIDEO: Gov. David Ige mandates 14-day quarantine for visitors to Hawaii, returning residents
					

In the state’s toughest measure yet in combating the coronavirus, Gov. David Ige today ordered residents and visitors returning to Hawaii to undergo a 14-day quarantine starting Thursday.




					www.staradvertiser.com
				




14 day quarantine for incoming residents and visitors will go into effect March 26


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## controller1

Another article on the mandatory 14-day quarantine of all visitors beginning March 26.









						Hawaii Updates: Governor Orders 14-Day Quarantine For Visitors, Returning Residents
					

Updated: 3/21/20, 7:45 p.m.Gov. David Ige is pulling up the welcome mat: starting Thursday, any domestic or international visitor who comes to Hawaii will…




					www.hawaiipublicradio.org


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## Steve Fatula

The governor had already said previously for tourists to stay away. So, I suppose not too surprising.


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## pedro47

Are there any ideas or thoughts what will happen at the end of April 2020?


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## controller1

pedro47 said:


> Are there any ideas or thoughts what will happen at the end of April 2020?



It appears the quarantine order will last until May 20, 2020 unless terminated earlier by the Governor.



			https://loyaltylobby.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/2003152-ATG_Second-Supplementary-Proclamation-for-COVID-19-signed.pdf


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## StevenTing

Gov. Ige is my least favorite person right now.  

If he would have at least said, "On doctor's orders, I'm quarantining everyone," maybe my travel insurance would kick in.


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## duke

Hawaii’s governor issued a sweeping quarantine order Saturday, requiring all visitors — including mainland U.S. citizens — and residents returning to the state, to self-isolate for 14 days.

Arriving passengers must immediately report to their quarantine location upon leaving the airport.

Hawaii residents will self-isolate at home, and *visitors will be required to stay in their hotel rooms or “rented lodging” for 14 days or the duration of their stay in the state, whichever is shorter. During the two weeks of isolation, people will only be permitted to leave their quarantine location to seek urgent medical care. *Disobeying the order could result in a $5,000 fine and up to a year in prison.


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## controller1

Also, this appears it will be in place through May 20, 2020, unless terminated earlier by the Governor.



			https://loyaltylobby.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/2003152-ATG_Second-Supplementary-Proclamation-for-COVID-19-signed.pdf


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## controller1

Post deleted as it is a duplicate now that the threads have been merged.


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## StevenTing

At least he has an end date.  In the news conference he mentioned indefinitely until otherwise noted. Our trip begins May 30.  So if the world is burning by that date, we'll bring marshmallows.


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## Sapper

StevenTing said:


> Gov. Ige is my least favorite person right now.
> 
> If he would have at least said, "On doctor's orders, I'm quarantining everyone," maybe my travel insurance would kick in.



This is the thing that is irritating me. Gov. Ige is not ordering hotel closures because that would mean the hotels would have to cancel and refund money. By doing things like this 14 day quarantine and “asking” tourists to stay home, it means no travel insurance will cover and no businesses have to refund money. Then the tourists are painted as greedy by the locals because they keep showing up. We have a trip mid April, and have already been told by multiple entities we booked with that they will not refund money spent. Travel insurance will not cover because there has been no ordered closure.


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## critterchick

StevenTing said:


> Gov. Ige is my least favorite person right now.
> 
> If he would have at least said, "On doctor's orders, I'm quarantining everyone," maybe my travel insurance would kick in.





Sapper said:


> This is the thing that is irritating me. Gov. Ige is not ordering hotel closures because that would mean the hotels would have to cancel and refund money. By doing things like this 14 day quarantine and “asking” tourists to stay home, it means no travel insurance will cover and no businesses have to refund money. Then the tourists are painted as greedy by the locals because they keep showing up. We have a trip mid April, and have already been told by multiple entities we booked with that they will not refund money spent. Travel insurance will not cover because there has been no ordered closure.



The only way the travel insurers will pay for anything related to COVID-19 is if you come down with it (unless you have cancel for any reason insurance). Then the medical coverages would apply.


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## Luanne

critterchick said:


> The only way the travel insurers will pay for anything related to COVID-19 is if you come down with it (unless you have cancel for any reason insurance). Then the medical coverages would apply.


In looking at a policy I currently have, here are some other reasons your insurance would pay out:

You or a traveling companion is quarantined.  (I assume this means before travel, but it would be an interesting one to try to argue)

Your destination is uninhabitable. (Would this apply if it was shut down completely)

You or a traveling companion is  terminated or  laid off by a  current employer after your policy’s purchase date.  (This could end up applying to a lot of people)


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## StevenTing

critterchick said:


> The only way the travel insurers will pay for anything related to COVID-19 is if you come down with it (unless you have cancel for any reason insurance). Then the medical coverages would apply.



I'm tempted to fly to Seattle just so I can have my travel insurance kick in.  I've got 66 days before my trip.  Chance are it will likely spread and a majority will get it before we leave on our trip.


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## CalGalTraveler

+1 There likely are two other fine print exclusions for "epidemics" and "government action" so a shutdown may not help with insurance unless they refund directly. This was in my event insurance so I am waiting for my broadway show to be cancelled and refunded when NYC extends the ban to end of April. Travel insurance is a waste of money unless you are traveling internationally and need the health coverage while traveling.


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## StevenTing

Luanne said:


> They will also pay if your flight is cancelled.




I think this is dependent on policy.  The policy I have from Marriott doesn't appear to include this coverage unless it's a Strike or the air carrier ceases operations and becomes insolvent.


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## Luanne

StevenTing said:


> I think this is dependent on policy.  The policy I have from Marriott doesn't appear to include this coverage unless it's a Strike or the air carrier ceases operations and becomes insolvent.


I didn't mean to post that.  I realized after I had started my post wasn't that the travel insurance would pay if the flight was cancelled, but that the airline (might depend on which airline) would refund if they cancelled the flight.  If you cancel, in most cases, you'll just get a travel credit.


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## Luanne

StevenTing said:


> I'm tempted to fly to Seattle just so I can have my travel insurance kick in.  I've got 66 days before my trip.  Chance are it will likely spread and a majority will get it before we leave on our trip.


Confused here.  Why would your travel insurance kick in if you fly to Seattle?


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## StevenTing

Luanne said:


> Confused here.  Why would your travel insurance kick in if you fly to Seattle?



Because then I would have to be quarantined.  Maybe it'd be better if I fly to New York.

From Travelex:

To be eligible for Trip Cancellation/Interruption coverage one of the following must occur while your coverage is in effect:

you or your Traveling Companion would need to be sick as diagnosed by a physician and unfit for travel (which could *include contracting the coronavirus, and as a result being physically quarantined).*


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## Luanne

StevenTing said:


> Because then I would have to be quarantined.  Maybe it'd be better if I fly to New York.
> 
> From Travelex:
> 
> To be eligible for Trip Cancellation/Interruption coverage one of the following must occur while your coverage is in effect:
> 
> you or your Traveling Companion would need to be sick as diagnosed by a physician and unfit for travel (which could *include contracting the coronavirus, and as a result being physically quarantined).*


Sounds like you would have to be sick, not just quarantined.  Do you really want to get COVID-19 just so your insurance will kick in?


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## controller1

Luanne said:


> Sounds like you would have to be sick, not just quarantined.  Do you really want to get COVID-19 just so your insurance will kick in?



Agree. It appears you would have to have a confirmed positive test result. That seems a little extreme to try for that just so that travel insurance would kick in.


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## jjking42

What about visitors that are already in Hawaii? 

I know we have some tug members there. It’s probably safer to stay than to fly back to the mainland. They are going to quarantine people on incoming flights, what about pilots and stewardess. What about outbound flights so visitors that arrived before the quarantine  can depart. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kapolei

jjking42 said:


> What about visitors that are already in Hawaii?
> 
> I know we have some tug members there. It’s probably safer to stay than to fly back to the mainland. They are going to quarantine people on incoming flights, what about pilots and stewardess. What about outbound flights so visitors that arrived before the quarantine  can depart.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Interesting point.  If you are a retiree and you are stacked with timeshare weeks, and you are already here, maybe you shelter in place in Hawaii.  I think it would depend on the unique circumstances of each individual and the resort you are located in.


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## Sapper

How exactly are they going to enforce this?  Do they post a guard outside your hotel room?  Is the Hawaiian government converting the local high school gym into the quarantine central lock down facility?  The honor system?  On people who disregarded the governors request they not show up to begin with?   Maybe the governor is hoping enough people are scared by this so called quarantine that they decide to cancel and it pushes airlines to just cancel their flights.


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## Kapolei

Sapper said:


> How exactly are they going to enforce this?  Do they post a guard outside your hotel room?  Is the Hawaiian government converting the local high school gym into the quarantine central lock down facility?  The honor system?  On people who disregarded the governors request they not show up to begin with?   Maybe the governor is hoping enough people are scared by this so called quarantine that they decide to cancel and it pushes airlines to just cancel their flights.



There is two things going on.  Quarantine for arrivals to State and stay at home for everyone for City and County of Honolulu and other rules which may be Island/county dependent.  Info is available on the respective websites.  If you are an arrival, I think you are going to be filling out the form before you get off the plane declaring your place of quarantine.  I recommend everyone educate yourselves in advance.  You will likely get educated along the way.  Don’t set yourself up for more than you bargained for.

Things are changing quickly.  Take a look at the Hawaiian Airlines site.  You might not even be able to arrive.  These orders have teeth.  

Also, it is not normally referred to as the Hawaiian government.  Just a minor point on common usage.


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## Sapper

Kapolei said:


> There is two things going on.  Quarantine for arrivals to State and stay at home for everyone for City and County of Honolulu and other rules which may be Island/county dependent.  Info is available on the respective websites.  If you are an arrival, I think you are going to be filling out the form before you get off the plane declaring your place of quarantine.  I recommend everyone educate yourselves in advance.  You will likely get educated along the way.  Don’t set yourself up for more than you bargained for.
> 
> Things are changing quickly.  Take a look at the Hawaiian Airlines site.  You might not even be able to arrive.  These orders have teeth.
> 
> Also, it is not normally referred to as the Hawaiian government.  Just a minor point on common usage.



Ok, but the quarantine order has “teeth” how?  How does the Hawaiian gov intend to enforce this?

I was referring to the state gov as the Hawaiian gov in order to clarify who I was talking about, as opposed to just saying “they” or something similar.


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## Kapolei

Sapper said:


> Ok, but the quarantine order has “teeth” how?  How does the Hawaiian gov intend to enforce this?
> 
> I was referring to the state gov as the Hawaiian gov in order to clarify who I was talking about, as opposed to just saying “they” or something similar.



Hawaii is not a country.  I am going to ignore you at this point.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Sapper said:


> Ok, but the quarantine order has “teeth” how?  How does the Hawaiian gov intend to enforce this?
> 
> I was referring to the state gov as the Hawaiian gov in order to clarify who I was talking about, as opposed to just saying “they” or something similar.


What Kapolei is getting at.

Do you refer to your state government as the Texan government?  Or the Texas government? The New York government or the New Yorker government?  The Minnesota government or the Minnesotan government?

In English, we use the possessive with government when we are talking about a foreign country.  The Russian government.  The British government.  The Mexican government.  The Canadian government.

By using Hawaiian government you are implying that Hawaii is not part of the United States.  And that is a very sensitive point for people on the Islands, because there are many mainlanders who seem to act like Hawaii is not part of the USA.


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## controller1

jjking42 said:


> What about visitors that are already in Hawaii?
> 
> I know we have some tug members there. It’s probably safer to stay than to fly back to the mainland. They are going to quarantine people on incoming flights, what about pilots and stewardess. What about outbound flights so visitors that arrived before the quarantine  can depart.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The order is specific that it does not pertain to visitors already in Hawaii and it also does not pertain to airline flight crews.


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## alwysonvac

Hawaiian Airlines to Suspend Most Long-Haul Passenger Service Due to New State of Hawai‘i Quarantine Order
					

HONOLULU – Hawaiian Airlines, in preparation for a 14-day government quarantine order for all Hawai‘i arrivals set to begin Thursday due to the COVID-19 pandemic, today announced it will maintain its regular flight schedule through Wednesday to allow...




					newsroom.hawaiianairlines.com


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## Swice

My Interval request, which had been placed a year ago-- just came through-- Maui May 29th.     ...and the Interval rep seemed surprised when I called to turn it down.


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## 1Kflyerguy

Sapper said:


> How exactly are they going to enforce this?  Do they post a guard outside your hotel room?  Is the Hawaiian government converting the local high school gym into the quarantine central lock down facility?  The honor system?  On people who disregarded the governors request they not show up to begin with?   Maybe the governor is hoping enough people are scared by this so called quarantine that they decide to cancel and it pushes airlines to just cancel their flights.



I have no idea how they plan to enforce this.    I live in Ca, and our shelter in place order seem to have had a big effect, but there are still people that ignore the order.

Personally i am following the Ca State order, and now canceled my trip to Hawaii in accordance with their orders.

I have no desire to test the rules. While I will miss my vacation, and am uncertain how usable the credits i will get the United, MVC and Hawaiian Air its seem any trip trip i did take would be the pleasant relaxing trip i had originally planned.


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## Sapper

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> What Kapolei is getting at.
> 
> Do you refer to your state government as the Texan government?  Or the Texas government? The New York government or the New Yorker government?  The Minnesota government or the Minnesotan government?
> 
> In English, we use the possessive with government when we are talking about a foreign country.  The Russian government.  The British government.  The Mexican government.  The Canadian government.
> 
> By using Hawaiian government you are implying that Hawaii is not part of the United States.  And that is a very sensitive point for people on the Islands, because there are many mainlanders who seem to act like Hawaii is not part of the USA.



If I am trying to disambiguate, then yes. For example, they issued a shelter in place order. Who is they?


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## Luanne

Sapper said:


> If I am trying to disambiguate, then yes. For example, they issued a shelter in place order. Who is they?


It's very easy.  Instead of "they" you can be specific.  The state of......, the city of......   Or to be more specific, the governor of the state of.......  or the mayor of the city of....... That is how these orders are being announced.


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## lynne

Hawaiian Airlines has suspended most flights to/from the mainland:
*Hawaiian Airlines US routes effective 3/26/20.*

Boston-Honolulu. Suspended.
Las Vegas-Honolulu. Suspended.
Las Vegas-Maui. Suspended.
Los Angeles-Honolulu. 1 round trip flight daily.
Los Angeles-Kona. Suspended.
Los Angeles-Lihue. Suspended.
Long Beach-Honolulu. Suspended.
New York-Honolulu. Suspended.
Oakland-Honolulu. Suspended.
Oakland-Lihue. Suspended.
Oakland-Maui. Suspended.
Phoenix-Honolulu. Suspended.
Portland-Honolulu. Suspended.
Portland-Maui. Suspended.
Sacramento-Honolulu. Suspended.
Sacramento-Maui. Suspended.
San Diego-Honolulu. Suspended.
San Diego-Maui. Suspended.
San Francisco-Honolulu. Suspended.
San Francisco-Maui. Suspended.
San Jose-Honolulu. Suspended.
San Jose-Maui. Suspended.
Seattle-Honolulu. Suspended.
Seattle-Maui. Suspended.


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## Sapper

1Kflyerguy said:


> I have no idea how they plan to enforce this.    I live in Ca, and our shelter in place order seem to have had a big effect, but there are still people that ignore the order.
> 
> Personally i am following the Ca State order, and now canceled my trip to Hawaii in accordance with their orders.
> 
> I have no desire to test the rules. While I will miss my vacation, and am uncertain how usable the credits i will get the United, MVC and Hawaiian Air its seem any trip trip i did take would be the pleasant relaxing trip i had originally planned.



Yeah, our Hawaiian vacation is now canceled as well. As you say, not the pleasant relaxing trip we had planned. 

I’m not looking to break any rules either, but I can see a bunch of folks taking advantage of discounted flights and hotels to go. If the quarantine order has no method of enforcement, then you are asking people who are already disregarding Gov. Ige’s request to play nice. I am not sure that is going to work.


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## Luanne

Sapper said:


> Yeah, our Hawaiian vacation is now canceled as well. As you say, not the pleasant relaxing trip we had planned.
> 
> I’m not looking to break any rules either, but I can see a bunch of folks taking advantage of discounted flights and hotels to go. If the quarantine order has no method of enforcement, then you are asking people who are already disregarding Gov. Ige’s request to play nice. I am not sure that is going to work.


Maybe all the state of Hawaii would have to do is catch a few of these offenders, slap a huge fine on them, detain them or send them home to send the message.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Sapper said:


> If I am trying to disambiguate, then yes. For example, they issued a shelter in place order. Who is they?


Or instead of saying "Hawaiian government" you could say "Hawaii government" - just as you would say the Texas government and not the Texan government.  The point is that in language locution conveys meaning.  If Hawaii is part of the US, then locution that denotes it as a foreign government is not correct.


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## Sapper

Luanne said:


> It's very easy.  Instead of "they" you can be specific.  The state of......, the city of......   Or to be more specific, the governor of the state of.......  or the mayor of the city of....... That is how these orders are being announced.



I did that and Kapolei got bent out of shape over it.

My statement was “Is the Hawaiian government converting the local high school gym into the quarantine central lock down facility?”

I would not state “Is the governor of Hawaii...” because the governor would direct his government to do it (probably through the use of the National Guard which are attached to Hawaii). 



T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Or instead of saying "Hawaiian government" you could say "Hawaii government" - just as you would say the Texas government and not the Texan government.  The point is that in language locution conveys meaning.  If Hawaii is part of the US, then locution that denotes it as a foreign government is not correct.



Actually, in Texas, you would be fine stating “Texan”.


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## lynne

Sapper said:


> Yeah, our Hawaiian vacation is now canceled as well. As you say, not the pleasant relaxing trip we had planned.
> 
> I’m not looking to break any rules either, but I can see a bunch of folks taking advantage of discounted flights and hotels to go. If the quarantine order has no method of enforcement, then you are asking people who are already disregarding Gov. Ige’s request to play nice. I am not sure that is going to work.


Anyone coming to the islands now would not have the best experience.  Most, if not all beaches are closed, no dine-in restaurants and the ones that are doing take-out are closing daily, all attractions are closed.  Not much to do.


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## fawright

HAL is cancelling all mainland flights except one per day (#1 & #2 LAX-HNL) as of Thurs 3/26.
From HAL Website -
"Our regular flight schedule will be maintained through Wednesday, March 25 to allow guests to return home before we begin suspending most of our North America and International routes for the remainder of March, except for one daily nonstop flight between Honolulu (HNL) and Los Angeles (LAX) and one weekly HNL-American Samoa (PPG) flight."


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## csodjd

StevenTing said:


> At least he has an end date.  In the news conference he mentioned indefinitely until otherwise noted. Our trip begins May 30.  So if the world is burning by that date, we'll bring marshmallows.


Would you like to go a week earlier? I have a 2BR OF at the Marriott Maui Ocean Club from May 23-30 that I may not be able to use now.


----------



## lynne

All of the Marriotts on the Big Island are closing to all guests starting on Sunday through the end of May (Westin Hapuna, Mauna Kea, Waikoloa Beach, Waikoloa Ocean Club).  The Mauna Lani Auberge is also closing through the end of April.   The govenor has just issued a stay at home order for all residents and non-essential businesses to close:  Facilities ordered closed under the proclamation include: fitness centers and gyms; locations with amusement rides; carnivals; water parks; aquariums; zoos; museums; arcades; fairs; children’s play centers; playgrounds; funplexes; theme parks; bowling alleys; movie and other theaters; concert and music halls; and social clubs.









						Hawaii Travel Ban | Updates
					

Fast changing and at times conflicting. It is hard to even keep track.



					beatofhawaii.com


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

In most of the world, containment and isolation is not a feasible strategy because there are too many ways for the virus to spread.  It's just not possible to completely prevent ingress and egress from a region.  

But that does remain a viable strategy for island regions, because in those areas it is possible to lock down the region and control arrivals.  So unlike in the mainland, implementation of these control measures, combined with tracking of confirmed cases, actually does stand a chance of success. But to make that work, Hawaii needs to move quickly to large scale testing, a la South Korea, so that they know they have identified all of the outbreak pockets.


----------



## Kapolei

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> In most of the world, containment and isolation is not a feasible strategy because there are too many ways for the virus to spread.  It's just not possible to completely prevent ingress and egress from a region.
> 
> But that does remain a viable strategy for island regions, because in those areas it is possible to lock down the region and control arrivals.  So unlike in the mainland, implementation of these control measures, combined with tracking of confirmed cases, actually does stand a chance of success. But to make that work, Hawaii needs to move quickly to large scale testing, a la South Korea, so that they know they have identified all of the outbreak pockets.



I agree with this.  We can end up with a very positive outcome or a very negative outcome because we are an island state.  Hopefully things were not shut down too late.  But the shut down is huge and may put us in very good shape.  Continuing to pray to Father Damien for some intervention from above and some good luck.


----------



## scpoidog

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> What Kapolei is getting at.
> 
> Do you refer to your state government as the Texan government?  Or the Texas government? The New York government or the New Yorker government?  The Minnesota government or the Minnesotan government?
> 
> In English, we use the possessive with government when we are talking about a foreign country.  The Russian government.  The British government.  The Mexican government.  The Canadian government.
> 
> By using Hawaiian government you are implying that Hawaii is not part of the United States.  And that is a very sensitive point for people on the Islands, because there are many mainlanders who seem to act like Hawaii is not part of the USA.



LOL


----------



## Kapolei

scpoidog said:


> LOL



The added complication is that there are Hawaiians that want a government.  So when you say Hawaiian government, people that live here are wondering where you came from.  I politely told the poster that it wasn’t normal usage.  People can say whatever they want.  The sad thing is trying to educate them.  LOL


----------



## scpoidog

Kapolei said:


> The added complication is that there are Hawaiians that want a government.  So when you say Hawaiian government, people that live here are wondering where you came from.  I politely told the poster that it wasn’t normal usage.  People can say whatever they want.  The sad thing is trying to educate them.  LOL



Yep.  My sister in law is an advocate for an independent Hawaiian state.


----------



## Sapper

Kapolei said:


> The added complication is that there are Hawaiians that want a government.  So when you say Hawaiian government, people that live here are wondering where you came from.  I politely told the poster that it wasn’t normal usage.  People can say whatever they want.  The sad thing is trying to educate them.  LOL



LOL

So there is no government in Hawaii?

The sad thing is that you have taken this thread away from the topic.


----------



## Kapolei

Less reported today than yesterday.  Got to stay focused now.  Less distractions should help.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Sapper said:


> The sad thing is that you have taken this thread away from the topic.


You are correct.  We have wandered off topic.  My apologies for contributing to that.


----------



## Kapolei

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> You are correct.  We have wandered off topic.  My apologies for contributing to that.



No need apologize.  We got far bigger worries than the distinction between Hawaii government and Hawaiian government.  The other guy can win the discussion.  It is not a contest as to who gets the last word in.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Kapolei said:


> No need apologize.  We got far bigger worries than the distinction between Hawaii government and Hawaiian government.  The other guy can win the discussion.  It is not a contest as to who gets the last word in.



I agree, it is clear that people in Hawaii DO NOT want additional people coming there from other areas that may bring additional the virus to the islands.  That goes for Hawaiians, non Hawaiian residents, and the Government!  The 14 day quarantine is a nice way of dictating, DON'T COME.


----------



## Kapolei

Tamaradarann said:


> I agree, it is clear that people in Hawaii DO NOT want additional people coming there from other areas that may bring additional the virus to the islands.  That goes for Hawaiians, non Hawaiian residents, and the Government!  The 14 day quarantine is a nice way of dictating, DON'T COME.



The governor has been very effective here.  Tourism is now closed.  However, we want this to end as soon as possible so we can reopen for business.  Despite all our internal grumbling and discontent, we live in the greatest of the fifty states.  Nothing comes close.  I am not going to debate this.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Kapolei said:


> The governor has been very effective here.  Tourism is now closed.  However, we want this to end as soon as possible so we can reopen for business.  Despite all our internal grumbling and discontent, we live in the greatest of the fifty states.  Nothing comes close.  I am not going to debate this.



I totally agree with you and agree with Governor Ige with his proclamation, I would have done the same thing.  When I heard that Hotels were closing I said that the first thing I would do is stop people from coming so the census in the Hotels was low before they close.  I was in Hawaii from December 7-March 23 in Timeshares and I only left when HGVC told us that they wouldn't be keeping the timeshare open and I didn't want to be searching around for a place to stay during this virus spread and there was limited air travel off the island.   We caught the second to last direct flight from Honolulu to JFK with no one siting near us and only very limited bathroom usage, which I cleaned intensely with disinfectant wipes before my husband and I went in.  There was no one going through Security, the deplaning was quick and we had no luggage.  I am not debating this, it is good for the people in Hawaii; but is it is fact:

"people in Hawaii DO NOT want additional people coming there from other areas that may bring additional the virus to the islands. That goes for Hawaiians, non Hawaiian residents, and the Government! The 14 day quarantine is a nice way of dictating, DON'T COME."


----------



## Kapolei

Glad you had a nice trip back.  I am praying for NY.  The people are definitely following orders here.  I have been out to get supplies and it is a ghost town.  Everyone is being careful.  We are definitely 1000 times better off than we were a week ago.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Kapolei said:


> Glad you had a nice trip back.  I am praying for NY.  The people are definitely following orders here.  I have been out to get supplies and it is a ghost town.  Everyone is being careful.  We are definitely 1000 times better off than we were a week ago.



We are in our private house in the middle of the woods on Long Island with no elevators to deal with to get in and out.  We can get deliveries right to our front door and have cars to pick up stuff that we order for pick up.  One of the things that urged us to go back home was that Waikiki was a ghost town and we started to not feel as safe as we always do when we are there walking around.  People here are staying in their houses only going out to pick up food.  Hopefully the spread slows and ceases all across the world.


----------



## Hawaiibarb

For those who are wondering if this edict re visitors and returning residents is official, it definitely is.  At first, we were told a warning would be issued initially, but now they are going straight to citations, and fines can be up to $5000.  Hawaii is not your dream vacation right now.....so much is closed e.g. restaurants, nightclubs, parks, beaches, all the special attractions.  Those of us not under quarantine are directed to stay at home; we can go to the grocery store, get gas, go to limited banks, get take-out food.  Frankly, everybody has to do their part.  There are the idiots who think the virus wouldn't effect them, but they ignore the fact that they could pass it on to others.   We'll get through this, but save your visit to Hawaii once we can get back to normal.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Hawaiibarb said:


> For those who are wondering if this edict re visitors and returning residents is official, it definitely is.  At first, we were told a warning would be issued initially, but now they are going straight to citations, and fines can be up to $5000.  Hawaii is not your dream vacation right now.....so much is closed e.g. restaurants, nightclubs, parks, beaches, all the special attractions.  Those of us not under quarantine are directed to stay at home; we can go to the grocery store, get gas, go to limited banks, get take-out food.  Frankly, everybody has to do their part.  There are the idiots who think the virus wouldn't effect them, but they ignore the fact that they could pass it on to others.   We'll get through this, but save your visit to Hawaii once we can get back to normal.



You said this very well.  It couldn't have said it better.  That is certainly part of the reasons we left last Tuesday.  As I said on another tread Waikiki is now more like Molokai than Waikiki!!


----------



## Kapolei

We really had the potential to be the next New York.  I am cautiously optimistic we will avoid that type of growth rate.  People are scared now and paying attention.  I hope we didn’t shut down too late.


----------



## lynne

Kapolei said:


> We really had the potential to be the next New York.  I am cautiously optimistic we will avoid that type of growth rate.  People are scared now and paying attention.  I hope we didn’t shut down too late.



In addition some of the guests who are currently here are insulting the workers who are trying to do their job and not get infected:
*Big Island resort worker asks mainland tourists to show aloha during crisis*
Among her nightmare stories, a guest from San Francisco used racial slurs and said hotel staff should be grateful that tourists give them jobs.
Saturday, March 28th 2020, 11:26 AM HST by Annalisa Burgos




On the Big Island, a handful of resorts remain open to serve flight crews, essential workers from neighboring islands, and dozens of mainland tourists waiting out the COVID-19 crisis.

A hotel union worker who asked not to be identified says she and her colleagues are shocked by the attitude of visitors who feel entitled to access and services despite the state's "Stay at Home" order.

"If you're going to come to escape your own city, town, state's rules and regulations for lockdown, why are you here? And then being rude on top of it and sometimes quite abusive.," she said.

Among her nightmare stories, a guest from San Francisco used racial slurs and said hotel staff should be grateful that tourists give them jobs.


She said guests are extending stays, paying as much as $200 a night, but are ignoring restrictions on where they can go.

And while the state can't ban visitors outright, hospitality workers are asking tourists to show aloha to people working during the crisis.

"We're all in this together, we're all having to go through this. And it's not easy, you know, we are all worried whether or not we are essential workers or not. We all have families to go home to also," she said.


----------



## Kapolei

lynne said:


> In addition some of the guests who are currently here are insulting the workers who are trying to do their job and not get infected:
> *Big Island resort worker asks mainland tourists to show aloha during crisis*
> Among her nightmare stories, a guest from San Francisco used racial slurs and said hotel staff should be grateful that tourists give them jobs.
> Saturday, March 28th 2020, 11:26 AM HST by Annalisa Burgos
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the Big Island, a handful of resorts remain open to serve flight crews, essential workers from neighboring islands, and dozens of mainland tourists waiting out the COVID-19 crisis.
> 
> A hotel union worker who asked not to be identified says she and her colleagues are shocked by the attitude of visitors who feel entitled to access and services despite the state's "Stay at Home" order.
> 
> "If you're going to come to escape your own city, town, state's rules and regulations for lockdown, why are you here? And then being rude on top of it and sometimes quite abusive.," she said.
> 
> Among her nightmare stories, a guest from San Francisco used racial slurs and said hotel staff should be grateful that tourists give them jobs.
> 
> 
> She said guests are extending stays, paying as much as $200 a night, but are ignoring restrictions on where they can go.
> 
> And while the state can't ban visitors outright, hospitality workers are asking tourists to show aloha to people working during the crisis.
> 
> "We're all in this together, we're all having to go through this. And it's not easy, you know, we are all worried whether or not we are essential workers or not. We all have families to go home to also," she said.




I have mixed feelings about this kind of journalism.  It rarely reflects reality.  It is often a snapshot of a bad episode or episodes.  We need to hear the good right now.  Not the bad.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Kapolei said:


> I have mixed feelings about this kind of journalism.  It rarely reflects reality.  It is often a snapshot of a bad episode or episodes.  We need to hear the good right now.  Not the bad.



I agree with your comment, we definitely need to hear the good right now.  As in most situations there are individual people who act out of line.  I am sure there are tourists that feel that they are entitled as described here and we know that there is racism in the USA.  We also know that there are essential workers during this stressful time that are either not going to work or taking extra precautions when they do go to work and not giving their job the usual bright happy Aloha.  If you are being helped at all during this crisis by others you should be thankful.  Think of where we as a society would be right now if all of the essential workers stayed home!!


----------



## Kapolei

[_Merged into existing thread_]

I am starting this thread to discuss the status of COVID-19 in Hawaii and the quarantine on out of state arrivals.

From 4/5/20 Star Advertiser,

“The individual passed this morning, and based on preliminary information, this case was travel-related in that the person may have been exposed to someone who had traveled,” said Hawaii COVID-19 Joint Information Center spokesman Dan Dennison in a news release today. “The Department of Health offers its deep condolences to the family and friends of the individual at this difficult and sad time.”

Health officials said the state’s tally of coronavirus cases has risen to 351, up 32 from Friday. Two minors are among the new cases. All four Hawaii deaths have occurred on Oahu.


----------



## alwysonvac

Homeless who fly to Hawaii will be given an option: Turn around or get arrested
					

Authorities made the announcement Friday, saying that at least four people have arrived at Honolulu’s airport in recent days without accommodations.




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com
				




_...The state wasn’t able to give us a number of exactly how many homeless people have arrived in Hawaii since the traveler quarantine started last Thursday._​_Hawaii News Now has received multiple reports from airline workers and official sources who say since the quarantine began at least three people with nowhere to go touched down at Honolulu’s airports._​​_Sources said workers wrote down the address of a homeless shelter on their paperwork and let them go._​​_The state didn’t confirm or deny the accusation but did acknowledge interactions with several homeless people who’d just gotten off of airplanes._​​_“I know of at least one on Oahu that was put into the homeless shelter. The recently stood up homeless shelter,” said Hara. “Then there were three that went to Kauai. All three were arrested.”_​​_In the week prior to quarantine measures going into effect, the city confirms five homeless people landed in Honolulu._​​_The executive director of the Mayor’s Housing Office believes it’s likely a result of the cheap airfare and the fact that homeless sweeps have been suspended._​​_“I think people see this as an opportunity to come here,” said Marc Alexander. “There is no evidence of other states or municipalities sending homeless people here to Hawaii.”_​​_The Hawaii Tourism Authority is helping to pay for airfare so people can return to the city they flew in from._​


----------



## Tamaradarann

I agree with you about the need for tourism to keep Hawaii in the black and with jobs.  I also agree that I am worried about the people who work in the Disney parks as well as other amusement parks, theaters(New York City is dead), wait staff at restaurants all over the country, and airline staff etc.

From a different perspective; we all are aware about the need for first responders and medical professionals who are desperately needed right now and are putting their lives in danger every day.  While they may not be in as much danger since they don't deal with sick people, we need to recognize the food system processors, who may not be as much in danger since they don't deal with sick people, but are desperately needed!  From pickers, to bakers, to packers, to shippers, to personal shoppers, to delivery people etc.  If they are sick or don't work for fear of contamination we don't eat!


----------



## rickandcindy23

I am very concerned that our trip to Kauai will be cancelled for 6/6-6/20.  Rick is somewhat optimistic.  I just keep thinking of all of the tourism and restaurants and the people who depend on that for a living.  Certainly Hawaii will want visitors soon.  I am not cancelling until there is an announcement of a date in the range that covers our trip.  If they say 5/31, that won't make me cancel.  We will see.


----------



## Tamaradarann

rickandcindy23 said:


> I am very concerned that our trip to Kauai will be cancelled for 6/6-6/20.  Rick is somewhat optimistic.  I just keep thinking of all of the tourism and restaurants and the people who depend on that for a living.  Certainly Hawaii will want visitors soon.  I am not cancelling until there is an announcement of a date in the range that covers our trip.  If they say 5/31, that won't make me cancel.  We will see.



The isolation rules in each state keep rolling forward.  Perhaps you will be good by June.  However, Hawaii is behind New York and other states as far as the peaking of the virus.  Most probably it will be behind Colorado so while you may be good to fly out, you may not be good to fly into Kauai or safe to be in Kauai.  I believe that the numbers that I have seen in Kauai are some of the lowest in the country so if they stay that way it is possible that there will be NO virus in Kauai by June.  Good Luck


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> The isolation rules in each state keep rolling forward.  Perhaps you will be good by June.  However, Hawaii is behind New York and other states as far as the peaking of the virus.  Most probably it will be behind Colorado so while you may be good to fly out, you may not be good to fly into Kauai or safe to be in Kauai.  I believe that the numbers that I have seen in Kauai are some of the lowest in the country so if they stay that way it is possible that there will be NO virus in Kauai by June.  Good Luck


Where you are getting that data from? 

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/hawaii appears to say something different. By mid-May it shows zero patients in the hospital state-wide and zero deaths from late April on. Since about 20% of those infected need to be hospitalized, that would suggest not more than about 5 patients with the disease by mid-May in the entire state.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> Where you are getting that data from?
> 
> https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/hawaii appears to say something different. By mid-May it shows zero patients in the hospital state-wide and zero deaths from late April on. Since about 20% of those infected need to be hospitalized, that would suggest not more than about 5 patients with the disease by mid-May in the entire state.



The numbers have changed since I last looked at them.  Hawaii was peaking in May.  If Hawaii does peak in 4 days as the latest chart says and there are NO cases in mid May then certainly it will be fine to be in Hawaii in June.  Since I am planning on a late September trip that will include moving into our condo I certainly would love it to be over in June and go feeling like this was just a bad dream that is over.


----------



## slip

Tamaradarann said:


> The numbers have changed since I last looked at them.  Hawaii was peaking in May.  If Hawaii does peak in 4 days as the latest chart says and there are NO cases in mid May then certainly it will be fine to be in Hawaii in June.  Since I am planning on a late September trip that will include moving into our condo I certainly would love it to be over in June and go feeling like this was just a bad dream that is over.



Are you going to be moving permanently then?


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> Where you are getting that data from?
> 
> https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/hawaii appears to say something different. By mid-May it shows zero patients in the hospital state-wide and zero deaths from late April on. Since about 20% of those infected need to be hospitalized, that would suggest not more than about 5 patients with the disease by mid-May in the entire state.



By the way I just looked at the same data for New York and they show NO cases in May for New York.  Since over 700 people died yesterday in NY and there are thousand new cases each day to believe that it will be over in 3 weeks in NY seems like fantasy not a bad dream!


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Tamaradarann said:


> By the way I just looked at the same data for New York and they show NO cases in May for New York.  Since over 700 people died yesterday in NY and there are thousand new cases each day to believe that it will be over in 3 weeks in NY seems like fantasy not a bad dream!


To start - a quibble.  The charts do not show cases.  They show no new cases.  So it isn't saying COVID-19 will be gone.  They are indicating no new cases - and assuming current control measures remain in effect. 

What they are showing for New York is what herd immunity - the unflattened curve - looks like.  New York is a combination of authorities being slow to act, combined with conditions (high population density) that are extremely favorable for disease transmission.  By the time NY authorities acted it was out of control, and the social distancing measures had relatively little effect.

Also note that the graph assumes the continuation of whatever control measures are being used.  So essentially it is saying that whomever has exposure under current conditions will have had it and will have either survived or died, or will still be in treatment. Now, the control measures have protected some people.  So as those measures are lifted or relaxed, new cases will occur. But those types of cases are not shown in the model results.  Separately, IHME is providing input to public health officials on how the curves change if assumed control measures are changed.  But that isn't shown on the link they have up for public consumption.

So yes, it makes perfect sense that the chart is showing no cases in May for New York.  New York is the picture of the unflattened curve.  As was being discussed here several weeks ago, the fastest way to get through the pandemic is to take no precautions and let the virus rip through the population as an the unflattened curve.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> By the way I just looked at the same data for New York and they show NO cases in May for New York.  Since over 700 people died yesterday in NY and there are thousand new cases each day to believe that it will be over in 3 weeks in NY seems like fantasy not a bad dream!


Remember that those 700 were first infected in March. The issue is new infections. Mortality trails by 1-2 weeks, sometimes 3. So as the number that die starts dropping, it means the number of new infections dropped a week or two earlier. Also, the model ASSUMES good effective social distancing. To the extent a community does not comply, the model will be wrong. As it says, "COVID-19 projections assuming full social distancing through May 2020." NY may not achieve that, and it will extend the curve.


----------



## Tamaradarann

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> To start - a quibble.  The charts do not show cases.  They show no new cases.  So it isn't saying COVID-19 will be gone.  They are indicating no new cases - and assuming current control measures remain in effect.
> 
> What they are showing for New York is what herd immunity - the unflattened curve - looks like.  New York is a combination of authorities being slow to act, combined with conditions (high population density) that are extremely favorable for disease transmission.  By the time NY authorities acted it was out of control, and the social distancing measures had relatively little effect.
> 
> Also note that the graph assumes the continuation of whatever control measures are being used.  So essentially it is saying that whomever has exposure under current conditions will have had it and will have either survived or died, or will still be in treatment. Now, the control measures have protected some people.  So as those measures are lifted or relaxed, new cases will occur. But those types of cases are not shown in the model results.  Separately, IHME is providing input to public health officials on how the curves change if assumed control measures are changed.  But that isn't shown on the link they have up for public consumption.
> 
> So yes, it makes perfect sense that the chart is showing no cases in May for New York.  New York is the picture of the unflattened curve.  As was being discussed here several weeks ago, the fastest way to get through the pandemic is to take no precautions and let the virus rip through the population as an the unflattened curve.



To believe that social distancing will be perfect is also fantasy, therefore, the model is giving a false impression of reality.   Even if you make the assumption that all people will try to follow the rules and stay 6 feet or more from others there are instances where that is not possible.  For instance most people live in a household with other people so that they could be infecting those that live in the same household.   Also, many people live in condominium or apartments where to get in and out on elevators you must be closer than 6 feet from other people.  Furthermore, the shelter in place "rules" state that going for food or medical treatment you can violate the stay at home rules.   When you do go for food and medical treatment you are going to be closer than 6 feet from people.  In fact when we went to Sam's in Honolulu for the first time when they were they changed the entrance rules and were not letting the Plus Members in between 7-10 when occupancy is usually low there was a long line to get in with people much closer than 6 feet.  In addition, even though many of us are not working or working from home there are many people who are providing essential services to all of us and are coming in contact with others everyday they work.  If they get infected they bring it home, on the elevator, or to the store or doctor when they go.  

In summary, if you are planning your vacation trips based on these coronavirus models you may have to change your plans.  This virus in not going to over in the Untied States in April and most probably won't be over in May.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Tamaradarann said:


> To believe that social distancing will be perfect is also fantasy, therefore, the model is giving a false impression of reality.   Even if you make the assumption that all people will try to follow the rules and stay 6 feet or more from others there are instances where that is not possible.  For instance most people live in a household with other people so that they could be infecting those that live in the same household.


That's built into the model.  They make assumptions about the effectiveness of social distancing measures, and they recalibrate their assumptions daily based on how the actual numbers play out as compared with their assumptions.

Their work is a hell of a lot more sophisticated than you appear to be assuming it is.  These people have been doing this for more then ten years, going back to SARS and including work on how Ebola transmission in Africa responded to social distancing measures undertaken in those countries.  They aren't winging it.  As we are seeing in Washington right now, they might actually be trending conservative (high).  Their predictions for New York also seem to be tracking reasonably well.   
(political observations deleted)

************

If you want to take issue with their projections, they do have a FAQ and they have listed their publications. If you have questions about their methodology, you might start there to see if your questions might have already been considered and incorporated or addressed.


----------



## csodjd

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> and they recalibrate their assumptions daily based on how the actual numbers play


That's a key point. As we've gotten further into this they have more and more data and are able to calibrate the R0 values to a higher and higher degree of accuracy. There are assumptions, to be sure, but, again, the models adjust as the assumptions are measured. 

These models are considered so accurate that the Governor of California was willing to ship 500 ventilators to other states once the models showed California had enough and would not run out. That's showing a lot of confidence in the models, and that confidence comes about because they are seeing that the models have been reliable. 

The most likely reason for the models to fail would be us. If we stop social distancing and stop staying at home too soon. I can tell you that, as a lifetime resident of Los Angeles, the last/only time I've seen the freeways like this was in the 1984 Olympics. There is, quite literally, no traffic at any time of day, on any freeway. That reflects a pretty determined populous to abide, and bodes well for the CA model.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> That's built into the model.  They make assumptions about the effectiveness of social distancing measures, and they recalibrate their assumptions daily based on how the actual numbers play out as compared with their assumptions.



I would also stress again that in using the model, responsible officials (and even some irresponsible officials) are consulting with the IHME people about how the curves change if control measures are modified or eliminated.  They should not, and hopefully are not, trusting the model results blindly. 

For example, Washington has terminated on-site school activities for the remainder of this school year. Meanwhile the IHME model shows no need for hospital resource in Washington after about the first week of May.  So does that mean we should expect schools to start normally in the Fall?  After all, that is should be three months later, for a disease that has an estimated 14-day incubation period. 

Not that simple.  Washington state government is saying that we still need to wait and see, because restarting school is a major change in modeling assumptions.  There's good reason to believe that schools might be the single most "efficient" COVID-19 transmission mode there is.  So perhaps, restarting schools should be the last control measure that should be lifted. Except that is one control measure that has some of the biggest economic consequences, and that affects poor and disadvantaged communities most disproportionately.


----------



## Tamaradarann

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> That's built into the model.  They make assumptions about the effectiveness of social distancing measures, and they recalibrate their assumptions daily based on how the actual numbers play out as compared with their assumptions.
> 
> Their work is a hell of a lot more sophisticated than you appear to be assuming it is.  These people have been doing this for more then ten years, going back to SARS and including work on how Ebola transmission in Africa responded to social distancing measures undertaken in those countries.  They aren't winging it.  As we are seeing in Washington right now, they might actually be trending conservative (high).  Their predictions for New York also seem to be tracking reasonably well.  They're doing a good enough job that the people whose jobs (and reelection campaigns) depend on their data are trusting their data as the best available information.
> 
> You can disbelieve them if you want because "it doesn't make sense".  But I suggest that may be a bit like people disbelieving Nate Silver at fivethirtyeight.com when he said Hillary Clinton wasn't a shoo-in because his projections "didn't make sense".  But if you ask me if I'm going to put money on their projections or your opinions, I hope you are not offended if I go with their projections.
> 
> ************
> 
> If you want to take issue with their projections, they do have a FAQ and they have listed their publications. If you have questions about their methodology, you might start there to see if your questions might have already been considered and incorporated or addressed.



When you say that the transmission issues that I brought up that continue to spread the virus are "built into the model" then you are correct that the model will be accurate.  However, if they make wrong assumptions, since humans are humans and not machines, then the model will be inaccurate.  You also mentioned that they recalculate their assumptions based on the the actual numbers.  So therefore, if their assumptions on April 1 were correct then and somewhat wrong on May 1 when they recalculate to make them correct, and on June 1 when they recalculate they will be correct again.  In the end if one looks back at April 1 to see what the predictions were that is the only way to judge the accuracy of their assumptions.  In August when I feel that this virus may be over spreading I am pretty confident that their model will be accurate.


----------



## Tamaradarann

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I would also stress again that in using the model, responsible officials (and even some irresponsible officials) are consulting with the IHME people about how the curves change if control measures are modified or eliminated.  They should not, and hopefully are not, trusting the model results blindly.
> 
> For example, Washington has terminated on-site school activities for the remainder of this school year. Meanwhile the IHME model shows no need for hospital resource in Washington after about the first week of May.  So does that mean we should expect schools to start normally in the Fall?  After all, that is should be three months later, for a disease that has an estimated 14-day incubation period.
> 
> Not that simple.  Washington state government is saying that we still need to wait and see, because restarting school is a major change in modeling assumptions.  There's good reason to believe that schools might be the single most "efficient" COVID-19 transmission mode there is.  So perhaps, restarting schools should be the last control measure that should be lifted. Except that is one control measure that has some of the biggest economic consequences, and that affects poor and disadvantaged communities most disproportionately.





T_R_Oglodyte said:


> That's built into the model.  They make assumptions about the effectiveness of social distancing measures, and they recalibrate their assumptions daily based on how the actual numbers play out as compared with their assumptions.
> 
> Their work is a hell of a lot more sophisticated than you appear to be assuming it is.  These people have been doing this for more then ten years, going back to SARS and including work on how Ebola transmission in Africa responded to social distancing measures undertaken in those countries.  They aren't winging it.  As we are seeing in Washington right now, they might actually be trending conservative (high).  Their predictions for New York also seem to be tracking reasonably well.  They're doing a good enough job that the people whose jobs (and reelection campaigns) depend on their data are trusting their data as the best available information.
> 
> You can disbelieve them if you want because "it doesn't make sense".  But I suggest that may be a bit like people disbelieving Nate Silver at fivethirtyeight.com when he said Hillary Clinton wasn't a shoo-in because his projections "didn't make sense".  But if you ask me if I'm going to put money on their projections or your opinions, I hope you are not offended if I go with their projections.
> 
> ************
> 
> If you want to take issue with their projections, they do have a FAQ and they have listed their publications. If you have questions about their methodology, you might start there to see if your questions might have already been considered and incorporated or addressed.



Thank you for pointing out the FAQ's of the model.  I went on the FAQ's and read that the focus of their model is to assist Hospitals and Medical Personnel in planning the care of patients.  It wasn't for the purposes of those on TUG planning their vacations.  I need to apologize for my mistaken purpose of their model.  When I worked I tried to condition myself to focus on the customer when making decisions and policies.  The model is focused on Hospitals and Medical Personnel; for that end I think it is great.  

However,  since I am not in that field my reason for looking at the model is for vacation planning.  So just as the Governor of Washington is reluctant to announce that school will resume in September, I am not going to vacation in June.  I am reluctant to count on vacations in the next six months.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Tamaradarann said:


> When you say that the transmission issues that I brought up that continue to spread the virus are "built into the model" then you are correct that the model will be accurate.  However, if they make wrong assumptions, since humans are humans and not machines, then the model will be inaccurate.  You also mentioned that they recalculate their assumptions based on the the actual numbers.  So therefore, if their assumptions on April 1 were correct then and somewhat wrong on May 1 when they recalculate to make them correct, and on June 1 when they recalculate they will be correct again.  In the end if one looks back at April 1 to see what the predictions were that is the only way to judge the accuracy of their assumptions.  In August when I feel that this virus may be over spreading I am pretty confident that their model will be accurate.


In the model the shaded areas indicate their uncertainty bands.  So the model also incorporates their uncertainties.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

34 cited for rule breaking in state parks - The Garden Island
					

Over the past few weeks, on O‘ahu, Kaua‘i, and Hawai‘i Island, officers from the DLNR Division of Conservation and Resources Enforcement (DOCARE) have cited 34 people for violations of State Parks rules, self-quarantine and and the governor’s stay-at-home orders, associated with the COVID-19 crisis.




					www.thegardenisland.com
				












						Ticketed for sunbathing - The Garden Island
					

LIHU‘E — To date, the Kaua‘i Police Department has issued nearly 60 citations for breaking state and local stay-at-home orders. Of these, 15 have been to beachgoers.




					www.thegardenisland.com


----------



## Tamaradarann

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> In the model the shaded areas indicate their uncertainty bands.  So the model also incorporates their uncertainties.



Thank you for that, there was no key for the shaded areas and I didn't know what the shaded areas were showing.  However, even though the model effectively shows that social distancing is working, which is imperative for the medical community to be able to handle the number and severity of the cases, it ends up pretty much in the same place as far as the end of the virus spread.  For the purposes of vacation planning the end of the virus spread is the essential factor and, in my opinion, the model ends it way to soon for me to be comfortable with vacation planning dates.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> Thank you for that, there was no key for the shaded areas and I didn't know what the shaded areas were showing.  However, even though the model effectively shows that social distancing is working, which is imperative for the medical community to be able to handle the number and severity of the cases, it ends up pretty much in the same place as far as the end of the virus spread.  For the purposes of vacation planning the end of the virus spread is the essential factor and, in my opinion, the model ends it way to soon for me to be comfortable with vacation planning dates.


There are a number of considerations with respect to vacation plans. Certainly the risk you'll (or those you're traveling with) be sick from the virus. Another is the risk you'll become sick on the trip. another is the risk you'll become infected from someone else on the trip. The models help with some data on these factors. They are about all we really have to go by. Thus we can see, for instance, that it appears Hawaii will be largely free of virus by the end of May.

But the inquiry doesn't stop there. There are the uncertainties of the "condition" of the place you're going to. Will hotels and restaurants be open? Will tourists be welcome? Will tourist spots or activities you want to engage in be open and available? Will new policies put in place spoil the trip or excursions or activities. As an example, perhaps a Viking river cruise is going as planned, but half of the excursions are canceled because local towns aren't allowing visitors. Or you can go safely to Orlando with the kids without fear of illness, but Disney is still closed. 

A fair amount of research and thought needs to go into each decision. The models are really an essential tool in helping you do that research.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Tamaradarann said:


> in my opinion, the model ends it way to soon for me to be comfortable with vacation planning dates.


That I can agree with, particularly because the model is based on continuation of current restrictions to limit contacts.  For travel to occur, those restrictions would have to be lifted, and the model results depicted don't include that.  Separately, IHME is providing information to public health officials of what the curves look like if changes are made in the restrictions.

We have not yet canceled our August Hawaii travel.  But it looks doubtful that we will go.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> There are a number of considerations with respect to vacation plans. Certainly the risk you'll (or those you're traveling with) be sick from the virus. Another is the risk you'll become sick on the trip. another is the risk you'll become infected from someone else on the trip. The models help with some data on these factors. They are about all we really have to go by. Thus we can see, for instance, that it appears Hawaii will be largely free of virus by the end of May.
> 
> But the inquiry doesn't stop there. There are the uncertainties of the "condition" of the place you're going to. Will hotels and restaurants be open? Will tourists be welcome? Will tourist spots or activities you want to engage in be open and available? Will new policies put in place spoil the trip or excursions or activities. As an example, perhaps a Viking river cruise is going as planned, but half of the excursions are canceled because local towns aren't allowing visitors. Or you can go safely to Orlando with the kids without fear of illness, but Disney is still closed.
> 
> A fair amount of research and thought needs to go into each decision. The models are really an essential tool in helping you do that research.



I certainly agree with your thoughts here.  The comments that I made with respect to the corona virus model took those thoughts into consideration.  My focus was on VACATION PLANNING, not MEDICIAL CARE.  I am a Vacation Planner not a Hospital Administrator.  That is why I had such outrage over the model showing the virus being over in May, which I have now taken back after realizing the focus of the model.  A recurence of the virus is certainly a possibility and a scary thought.  I feel that without a recurence by August it may be safe to vacation.  My initial plans are for late September with a contingency for December.  If neither work out 2021 certainly is a long way off but not impossible.


----------



## Tamaradarann

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> That I can agree with, particularly because the model is based on continuation of current restrictions to limit contacts.  For travel to occur, those restrictions would have to be lifted, and the model results depicted don't include that.  Separately, IHME is providing information to public health officials of what the curves look like if changes are made in the restrictions.
> 
> We have not yet canceled our August Hawaii travel.  But it looks doubtful that we will go.


I agree with you that the current restrictions would need to be lifted to make travel possible and desirable.  While I don't know when, I do believe they will be lifted in the summer or before.  Is that too soon?  I don't know but, in my opinion, the model that is shown paints too rosy a picture for making the correct decision.  I would like to see those separate models that IHME is providing the public health officials which will undoubtedly influence our Government Ofiicials since they will be more critical to vacation planning than the model for the medical community.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> A recurence of the virus is certainly a possibility and a scary thought.


That's why it is uncertain to me how Hawaii, in particular, will handle opening up to tourism. First, when will they open. Second, will they (to the extent they can) limit it to people originating in certain locations. There is a big risk difference (of re-introduction of contagion risk) between someone traveling from a location that has had no cases reported in 15 days vs one that is still reflecting new cases. But that has to be weighed by the Hawaiian powers that be by the economic injury. It is, in the end, still a risk-benefit analysis. As the risk of infection goes down, the benefit of opening up economically becomes a more relevant consideration. Thus, one might guess that they won't wait until the risk of reinfection is zero. It may never again be zero.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

csodjd said:


> That's why it is uncertain to me how Hawaii, in particular, will handle opening up to tourism. First, when will they open. Second, will they (to the extent they can) limit it to people originating in certain locations. There is a big risk difference (of re-introduction of contagion risk) between someone traveling from a location that has had no cases reported in 15 days vs one that is still reflecting new cases. But that has to be weighed by the Hawaiian powers that be by the economic injury. It is, in the end, still a risk-benefit analysis. As the risk of infection goes down, the benefit of opening up economically becomes a more relevant consideration. Thus, one might guess that they won't wait until the risk of reinfection is zero. It may never again be zero.


In addition, if their current measures succeed in containing the virus (as opposed to flattening the curve), then when the allow visitors they will have an unprotected population.  Which inevitably means that an outbreak will occur since the virus is still likely to be around at low levels for a long time to come. In ar area that has flattened the curve, new cases will be few and easily managed by the health care system.  But in an unprotected community that means a local epidemic.


----------



## bnoble

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> We have not yet canceled our August Hawaii travel. But it looks doubtful that we will go.


We have some December holiday plans on Kauai, and as best I can figure it is 50/50, and that might be optimistic. If we have to deposit the weeks to an exchange we will, but I'm not looking forward to having to do that.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> That's why it is uncertain to me how Hawaii, in particular, will handle opening up to tourism. First, when will they open. Second, will they (to the extent they can) limit it to people originating in certain locations. There is a big risk difference (of re-introduction of contagion risk) between someone traveling from a location that has had no cases reported in 15 days vs one that is still reflecting new cases. But that has to be weighed by the Hawaiian powers that be by the economic injury. It is, in the end, still a risk-benefit analysis. As the risk of infection goes down, the benefit of opening up economically becomes a more relevant consideration. Thus, one might guess that they won't wait until the risk of reinfection is zero. It may never again be zero.



If you look at the biggest picture, the risk of reinfection of Covid-19 or the introduction of another infectious disease will never be zero.  Hawaii is so economically dependent on tourism that they will certainly need to open up sooner rather than later.  I agree with your thought that they may open up to certain areas before others just like they closed themselves to certain areas first.  That can be tricky since many flights are not direct so how do they determine where passengers ultimately came from.


----------



## Tamaradarann

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> In addition, if their current measures succeed in containing the virus (as opposed to flattening the curve), then when the allow visitors they will have an unprotected population.  Which inevitably means that an outbreak will occur since the virus is still likely to be around at low levels for a long time to come. In ar area that has flattened the curve, new cases will be few and easily managed by the health care system.  But in an unprotected community that means a local epidemic.



I agree that Hawaii will most probably have a more unprotected population than other areas of the United States.  However, even in New York State which has the most cases of any state only a small portion of the population may have gotten the virus.   Att this juncture NYS is still less than 1% of the population.


----------



## DannyTS

There is a lot of talk coming from health care officials that treatment may be available before the beginning of the summer. I heard Dr Fauci indicating that. If we have any effective treatment available, things can open up closer to normal in a lot of areas. The problem is that the timing is still unknown plus I do not see how they can supply the whole world or even the whole US at the same time, I guess it will still take a while.


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> There is a lot of talk coming from health care officials that treatment may be available before the beginning of the summer. I heard Dr Fauci indicating that. If we have any effective treatment available, things can open up closer to normal in a lot of areas. The problem is that the timing is still unknown plus I do not see how they can supply the whole world or even the whole US at the same time, I guess it will still take a while.


Something about relying on a treatment for a potentially fatal illness that usually works just isn't all that comforting.


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> Something about relying on a treatment for a potentially fatal illness that usually works just isn't all that comforting.


No, it isn't but that is the case for a lot of other illnesses. Vaccines do not work 100%. Flu shots work least on older people actually but they hope the more they vaccinate the less will carry the disease so it still protects the elder that way. 
I would be very surprised if Hawaii is not open up for business by mid-June but that is just my 2 cents.


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> No, it isn't but that is the case for a lot of other illnesses. Vaccines do not work 100%. Flu shots work least on older people actually but they hope the more they vaccinate the less will carry the disease so it still protects the elder that way.
> I would be very surprised if Hawaii is not open up for business by mid-June but that is just my 2 cents.


Don't disagree, but I'm not sure what "open for business" will mean. Social distancing? Restaurants open to sit in or take out only? Etc.


----------



## Carol C

lynne said:


> Anyone coming to the islands now would not have the best experience.  Most, if not all beaches are closed, no dine-in restaurants and the ones that are doing take-out are closing daily, all attractions are closed.  Not much to do.



Surf? I hear there's a high surf advisory for most of the islands today.


----------



## Carol C

Tamaradarann said:


> I totally agree with you and agree with Governor Ige with his proclamation, I would have done the same thing.  When I heard that Hotels were closing I said that the first thing I would do is stop people from coming so the census in the Hotels was low before they close.  I was in Hawaii from December 7-March 23 in Timeshares and I only left when HGVC told us that they wouldn't be keeping the timeshare open and I didn't want to be searching around for a place to stay during this virus spread and there was limited air travel off the island.   We caught the second to last direct flight from Honolulu to JFK with no one siting near us and only very limited bathroom usage, which I cleaned intensely with disinfectant wipes before my husband and I went in.  There was no one going through Security, the deplaning was quick and we had no luggage.  I am not debating this, it is good for the people in Hawaii; but is it is fact:
> 
> "people in Hawaii DO NOT want additional people coming there from other areas that may bring additional the virus to the islands. That goes for Hawaiians, non Hawaiian residents, and the Government! The 14 day quarantine is a nice way of dictating, DON'T COME."


Respectfully, I do think the Gov wasted precious time...even a few days means alot when a pandemic is in process. With the islands already plagued with so many invasive species, the last thing folks want is an invasion of covid-19!


----------



## Tamaradarann

Carol C said:


> Respectfully, I do think the Gov wasted precious time...even a few days means alot when a pandemic is in process. With the islands already plagued with so many invasive species, the last thing folks want is an invasion of covid-19!



Every Head of Government during this pandemic had had pressure to close things down or keep things open.   During the early stages of the spread we didn't think it would get this bad.  This bad in Hawaii;  nor this bad in New York the 2 states that I am most familiar with and have been in during this Pandemic.   We stayed in Hawaii in February and Early March during the early stages since WE didn't think it was going to get this bad in Hawaii.  Governor Ige probably thought the same.  Hind sight is 20/20.   As we know the economic impact of the pandemic is very bad all over the US and particularly in Hawaii which is so tourist oriented.  If Governor Ige had closed down the islands on March 1st and the pandemic turned out to be a dud in Hawaii he would have been criticize for needlessly hurting the economy.   Governor Cuomo in NY had the same concerns and interestingly enough both Governors started closed things down almost the same time.  However, the situation in New York is so much worst than Hawaii.  Therefore, if the Hawaii Governor deserves criticism the New York certainly deserves as much or more.  In hindsight if one wants to be very conservative about preventing the spread of the virus to the United States the President wasted precious time and should have shutdown all travel to the United States starting in January when he became aware of the spread of the virus from China.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> In hindsight if one wants to be very conservative about preventing the spread of the virus to the United States the President wasted precious time and should have shutdown all travel to the United States starting in January when he became aware of the spread of the virus from China.


If not that, at least surveyed and ramped up inventories of potentially needed or depleted supplies, gone all-in on testing (the single most important tool in controlling any epidemic), and prepared contingency plans if despite their efforts they could not contain it. He also should have shared his intel aobut the virus with governors, especially of the states where lots of planes from China and Europe land, instead of ignoring it.


----------



## Carol C

Tamaradarann said:


> Every Head of Government during this pandemic had had pressure to close things down or keep things open.   During the early stages of the spread we didn't think it would get this bad.  This bad in Hawaii;  nor this bad in New York the 2 states that I am most familiar with and have been in during this Pandemic.   We stayed in Hawaii in February and Early March during the early stages since WE didn't think it was going to get this bad in Hawaii.  Governor Ige probably thought the same.  Hind sight is 20/20.   As we know the economic impact of the pandemic is very bad all over the US and particularly in Hawaii which is so tourist oriented.  If Governor Ige had closed down the islands on March 1st and the pandemic turned out to be a dud in Hawaii he would have been criticize for needlessly hurting the economy.   Governor Cuomo in NY had the same concerns and interestingly enough both Governors started closed things down almost the same time.  However, the situation in New York is so much worst than Hawaii.  Therefore, if the Hawaii Governor deserves criticism the New York certainly deserves as much or more.  In hindsight if one wants to be very conservative about preventing the spread of the virus to the United States the President wasted precious time and should have shutdown all travel to the United States starting in January when he became aware of the spread of the virus from China.


I agree with everything you said, believe it or not. And...at the risk of us getting "locked down" by TUG mods for being "political"...I myself was ticketed to go to China last month...from Feb 13-25...so I know more about the novel coronavirus than most "laymen". I got my first "ping" on December 31, since I had keyword "China" in my Google search...precisely because I was heading to China! (I had been ticketed since last May.)  (political observation deleted)


----------



## BJRSanDiego

...


----------



## BJRSanDiego

Carol C said:


> Respectfully, I do think the Gov wasted precious time...even a few days means alot when a pandemic is in process. With the islands already plagued with so many invasive species, the last thing folks want is an invasion of covid-19!



This is an interesting timeline. I believe that it is accurate.  One thing that strikes me is that neither WHO or the CDC did any of us any favors (an understatement).

1/14 WHO tweets that there is no evidence of human to human transmission.

1/17 CDC started doing health screenings at 3 airports of travelers from China.

1/21 first case in US for someone who traveled directly from Wuhan.

1/23 WHO again says no human to human transmission outside of China.

1/27 WHO raises alert level but is still saying China has it contained.

1/28 CDC states “ While CDC considers covid a serious situation and is taking preparedness measures, the immediate risk in the US is considered low.”

1/29 White House announces Coronavirus Task Force created. Note - this is despite the WHO downplaying the threat!

1/31 Trump bans travel from China.
---------------------------
But I do agree with you that the CDC did poorly on creating and distributing the initial test kits.  Also, it is surprising how much resistance there was against the travel ban by the media and politicians.


----------



## csodjd

BJRSanDiego said:


> Also, it is surprising how much resistance there was against the travel ban by the media and politicians.



(political observation deleted)

For clarity, the travel ban from China on 1/31 was not a blanket ban. It allowed all Americans and legal residents and their families in, and without any monitoring or quarantine when they arrived (save for the ships with known infection on them). Seems likely that a LOT of asymptomatic and unknowingly infected people came in from China even after the "ban."

WHO aside, the media reports that the administration received intelligence reports from its own intelligence agencies that contradicted China and WHO. And Trump said he had it contained even after there were 15 people in the US with confirmed cases and despite Navarro advising on Jan 29 that, "The lack of immune protection or an existing cure or vaccine would leave Americans defenseless in the case of a full-blown coronavirus outbreak on US soil. This lack of protection elevates the risk of the coronavirus evolving into a full-blown pandemic, imperiling the lives of millions of Americans.”

I think we'll do a lot better next time. We were lucky this one wasn't a highly fatal (30-40% or more) disease.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

csodjd said:


> I think we'll do a lot better next time. We were lucky this one wasn't a highly fatal (30-40% or more) disease.


With something that has 30% to 40% mortality the response is quite different.  Think Ebola.  While Ebola still rages where it is entrenched, the spread has been contained to a very high extent. 

Understandably, we respond more viscerally to mortality than to morbidity.


----------



## Pathways

csodjd said:


> If not that, at least surveyed and ramped up inventories of potentially needed or depleted supplies, gone all-in on testing (the single most important tool in controlling any epidemic), and prepared contingency plans if despite their efforts they could not contain it. He also should have shared his intel aobut the virus with governors, especially of the states where lots of planes from China and Europe land, instead of ignoring it.



Not bad ideas.  Do we have any evidence at all that all these things were not if fact occurring?  (Except for the 'sharing with the Gov's')


----------



## TravelTime

Carol C said:


> I agree with everything you said, believe it or not. And...at the risk of us getting "locked down" by TUG mods for being "political"...I myself was ticketed to go to China last month...from Feb 13-25...so I know more about the novel coronavirus than most "laymen". I got my first "ping" on December 31, since I had keyword "China" in my Google search...precisely because I was heading to China! (I had been ticketed since last May.) So, if a "regular" person like myself...some retired gal crossing dream trips off her bucket list...knew about the novel coronavirus on December 31...why didn't the President of the United States?



The President knew but he did not take it seriously yet. Granted, the Chinese government hid a lot of information.


----------



## csodjd

TravelTime said:


> The President knew but he did not take it seriously yet. Granted, *the Chinese government hid a lot of information.*


Well, there's a surprise we never could have anticipated.


----------



## Pathways

BJRSanDiego said:


> 1/14 WHO tweets that there is no evidence of human to human transmission.
> 
> 1/17 CDC started doing health screenings at 3 airports of travelers from China.
> 
> 1/21 first case in US for someone who traveled directly from Wuhan.
> 
> 1/23 WHO again says no human to human transmission outside of China.
> 
> 1/27 WHO raises alert level but is still saying China has it contained.
> 
> 1/28 CDC states “ While CDC considers covid a serious situation and is taking preparedness measures, the immediate risk in the US is considered low.”
> 
> 1/29 White House announces Coronavirus Task Force created. Note - this is despite the WHO downplaying the threat!
> 
> 1/31 Trump bans travel from China.
> ---------------------------



Just to add:

1/7  The date China first identified the virus as a novel strain.

1/11 First reported death due to the new strain.



BJRSanDiego said:


> But I do agree with you that the CDC did poorly on creating and distributing the initial test kits. Also, it is surprising how much resistance there was against the travel ban by the media and politicians.



Forget the CDC and the government.  Private business is the only reliable solution, the government just gets in the way and slows things down.

Adding to the timeline just to help support my point:

1/8 The day after the strain was identified as new, Roche mobilized their emergency response team

2/10 The day Roche submitted their emergency application to the FDA for their new test. I mean WOW, 30 days from identification to applying for a test approval.  I wonder how many other companies (such as Abbott) had similar timelines.


----------



## Pathways

csodjd said:


> Not affirmative. The best evidence is (i) what occurred such as running out of supplies; (ii) we had no test, developed a faulty one, then came out with one but only the last couple of weeks have reached meaningful levels of testing; and (iii) even Trump hasn't claimed they did any of those things, he blamed others for the lack of supplies and testing.



It's a good time to look back into history, from Pearl Harbor, to 'Nam, to 9/11.  In the final analysis there were plenty of 'signs' but never enough to actually move an entire populace behind far reaching decisions.  Of course, just like a stock market plunge/recession, there are plenty who 'predict' it every month of the year.  Of course, sooner or later, they will be right.  

As to the supplies, we can already look in the rear view mirror and see that things were not as bad as predicted.  The reality is we never ran out of supplies, but they were just not placed correctly.  Even the head of a large eastern state now clearly states 'let me be clear, there were no lives lost due to a lack of care'.  

As to some of the medical facilities where the supply shortage was the worst - They had supply shortages there last year, and the year before, and so on.... 

And yet our population complains incessantly about the high cost of health care.  I'm sure a CEO that says 'Hey, lets stockpile 1M N95 masks that will expire or rot in storage' will be lauded and admired.  Fat chance.


----------



## Pathways

csodjd said:


> Navarro advising on Jan 29 that, "The lack of immune protection or an existing cure or vaccine would leave Americans defenseless in the case of a full-blown coronavirus outbreak on US soil. This lack of protection elevates the risk of the coronavirus evolving into a full-blown pandemic, imperiling the lives of millions of Americans.”



Supposedly this guy writes MULTIPLE emails a day with some far out comments.  To cherry pick this one and hold it to the light of day, you would also need to look at all his other emails, and apply the same importance to them.

Again, just like every crisis in our national past, you will find someone who predicted it, warned about it, and was ignored.  Even Lincoln was supposedly warned ' don't go to the theater'


----------



## Pathways

csodjd said:


> He is one of Trump's closest and most trusted advisors.



To even comment here would be, well, just not worth it.


----------



## Tamaradarann

BJRSanDiego said:


> This is an interesting timeline. I believe that it is accurate.  One thing that strikes me is that neither WHO or the CDC did any of us any favors (an understatement).
> 
> 1/14 WHO tweets that there is no evidence of human to human transmission.
> 
> 1/17 CDC started doing health screenings at 3 airports of travelers from China.
> 
> 1/21 first case in US for someone who traveled directly from Wuhan.
> 
> 1/23 WHO again says no human to human transmission outside of China.
> 
> 1/27 WHO raises alert level but is still saying China has it contained.
> 
> 1/28 CDC states “ While CDC considers covid a serious situation and is taking preparedness measures, the immediate risk in the US is considered low.”
> 
> 1/29 White House announces Coronavirus Task Force created. Note - this is despite the WHO downplaying the threat!
> 
> 1/31 Trump bans travel from China.
> ---------------------------
> But I do agree with you that the CDC did poorly on creating and distributing the initial test kits.  Also, it is surprising how much resistance there was against the travel ban by the media and politicians.





csodjd said:


> If not that, at least surveyed and ramped up inventories of potentially needed or depleted supplies, gone all-in on testing (the single most important tool in controlling any epidemic), and prepared contingency plans if despite their efforts they could not contain it. He also should have shared his intel aobut the virus with governors, especially of the states where lots of planes from China and Europe land, instead of ignoring it.



While President Trump banned travel from China on 1/31, on Friday 4/10 at 4:59 I brought up the issue that in hindsight, which is always 20/20, the President should have banned all travel from all other countries to protect the United States from the spread of the coronavirus particularly since it has been shown that much of the source of the infection in the US is from Europe, not China.(please read if you doubt my claim).  I did this not with the intent to place blame at the President but to provide insite and defense of Hawaii Governor Ige's hesitancy to banning travel from places outside of Hawaii to protect Hawaii from the spread of the virus.

The decisions to shut down activity in all jurisdictions was a difficult one for all of our officials in the US Government and as well as in the individual states.  It has changed the lives of all people in the US; some more and some less.  However, perhaps the reactivation of activites will be more difficult and more important decisions.  Hopefully our leaders make the best and right decisions in this regard.  The negative effects that this virus has had on our lives has been bad;  a major resurgence of the virus will have major negative psychological as well as medical effects on our lives that we all don't want.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Couple who arrived on Kauai went to Foodland. That got them arrested
					

They were informed of the quarantine rules not once, but twice.




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> While President Trump banned travel from China on 1/31, on Friday 4/10 at 4:59 I brought up the issue that in hindsight, which is always 20/20, the President should have banned all travel from all other countries to protect the United States from the spread of the coronavirus particularly since it has been shown that much of the source of the infection in the US is from Europe, not China.(please read if you doubt my claim).  I did this not with the intent to place blame at the President but to provide insite and defense of Hawaii Governor Ige's hesitancy to banning travel from places outside of Hawaii to protect Hawaii from the spread of the virus.
> 
> The decisions to shut down activity in all jurisdictions was a difficult one for all of our officials in the US Government and as well as in the individual states.  It has changed the lives of all people in the US; some more and some less.  However, perhaps the reactivation of activites will be more difficult and more important decisions.  Hopefully our leaders make the best and right decisions in this regard.  The negative effects that this virus has had on our lives has been bad;  a major resurgence of the virus will have major negative psychological as well as medical effects on our lives that we all don't want.


I'm not a fan of this Administration, but to their defense it wasn't clear in January how many people without any symptoms were infected and contagious. So even the China travel ban was hopelessly flawed because it did not include a quarantine of the Americans and US Residents that were allowed to return despite the China travel ban. Some with an active fever were told to quarantine, but that likely missed MANY others coming from China with asymptomatic or not-yet symptomatic disease. As a doctor myself, it is that asymptomatic but contagious nature of the disease that is so challenging. One is forced to ASSUME every person is a potential carrier even if they say, "but I feel fine." (Hence the orders in California for EVERYONE to wear a mask so that they don't unwittingly infect others.) Back in the AIDS days my wife was very concerned that I was examining for AIDS patients and I told her, I'm not worried about them, I know they have it and can take precautions, I'm worried about the TB patient that doesn't know and coughs on me. This is similar. 

We were slow to understand this disease, and that's really a failing of testing. Widespread testing early (surveillance testing) would have informed our understand that people are testing positive without symptoms. It would have changed the entire trajectory in the US.


----------



## VacationForever

Tamaradarann said:


> Every Head of Government during this pandemic had had pressure to close things down or keep things open.   During the early stages of the spread we didn't think it would get this bad.  This bad in Hawaii;  nor this bad in New York the 2 states that I am most familiar with and have been in during this Pandemic.   We stayed in Hawaii in February and Early March during the early stages since WE didn't think it was going to get this bad in Hawaii.  Governor Ige probably thought the same.  Hind sight is 20/20.   As we know the economic impact of the pandemic is very bad all over the US and particularly in Hawaii which is so tourist oriented.  If Governor Ige had closed down the islands on March 1st and the pandemic turned out to be a dud in Hawaii he would have been criticize for needlessly hurting the economy.   Governor Cuomo in NY had the same concerns and interestingly enough both Governors started closed things down almost the same time.  However, the situation in New York is so much worst than Hawaii.  Therefore, if the Hawaii Governor deserves criticism the New York certainly deserves as much or more.  In hindsight if one wants to be very conservative about preventing the spread of the virus to the United States the President wasted precious time and should have shutdown all travel to the United States starting in January when he became aware of the spread of the virus from China.


Well the President did with China and was called a racist.  Let's not get political.


----------



## Tamaradarann

VacationForever said:


> Well the President did with China and was called a racist.  Let's not get political.



I wasn't getting political; I was sympathizing with heads of Governments that needed to make hard decisions that effected many people's lives and livelihoods.  Second guessing their decisions is easy since hindsight is 20/20.  Over the last 2 months we have second guessed our personal decisions first to stay in Hawaii past March 1st, then to go home to Long Island on March 23rd, and then when we were home and New York became the epi-center of the coronavirus world, thinking we should have stayed in Hawaii even if we were going to be homeless since they closed the resort we were staying at.  However, at least those we personal decisions that didn't effect millions of people.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

On Kauai:









						Masks now mandated - The Garden Island
					

LIHU‘E — Mayor Derek Kawakami announced more rules for Kaua‘i on Monday that further closed county parks, require mask-wearing for everyone in public, and outline sheltering procedures for Kaua‘i’s homeless population — all effective at 5 a.m. today.




					www.thegardenisland.com


----------



## bnoble

If you don't yet have masks, we ordered some from this manufacturer. The include a template for filter liners; we used an allergy-rated (1500 MPR) furnace filter, cut up, for the liners. We got about 70 or more liners out of one 20x25 filter. That's not quite as good as it can get, but it is way better than nothing.

$22/mask, and they will donate one for every one they sell.









						Wake Up and Fight Masks
					

FACE MASKS - BUY ONE-GIVE ONE - PURCHASE 20-PACKS - FAQ TheWake Up & Fight Mask PROJECT Buy A Mask & We DonatE to the Front Lines 200,000 Donated Masks & Counting As soon as we saw there was a shortage of protective gear in the COVID-19 crisis, we decided to jump in the fight—immediately...




					www.hedleyandbennett.com


----------



## pedro47

What is the latest information on Hawaii requirements of their 14 days quarantine of incoming visitors from the United States?


----------



## artringwald

pedro47 said:


> What is the latest information on Hawaii requirements of their 14 days quarantine of incoming visitors from the United States?



They haven't decided when it will end. They have arrested and fined tourists for violating the quarantine.










						Hawaii explores deterring tourists by limiting reservations - The Garden Island
					

HONOLULU — Hawaii Emergency Management Agency Incident Commander Kenneth Hara said Monday that Gov. David Ige’s administration is exploring further stemming the flow of visitors amid the coronavirus pandemic by disrupting their ability to make hotel reservations.




					www.thegardenisland.com


----------



## controller1

pedro47 said:


> What is the latest information on Hawaii requirements of their 14 days quarantine of incoming visitors from the United States?



Right now the only end date is May 20 which is in the Governor's Second Supplemental order announcing the 14-day quarantine.


----------



## rickandcindy23

How long are we going to be held hostage in our homes for this virus?  I wanted to go to Kauai 6/6.  I won't cancel until the governor of Hawaii closes the state longer than 5/20.  I already have cancellations in RCI that I have to use the exchange fee by 6/30/2020.  I don't even know what to book with those exchange fee credits.  

The islands depend on tourism.  I expect Hawaii to really suffer over this, so I hope the governor opens things up, and not just for my trip, but for the good of their economy.  

Why are people making this political?  I am concerned for our country.


----------



## Luanne

controller1 said:


> Right now the only end date is May 20 which is in the Governor's Second Supplemental order announcing the 14-day quarantine.


And the Fourth Supplemental order says April 30, 2020.  It also doesn't say specifically the end of the 14-day quarantine, but the end of the disaster emergency relief , this is the same wording as in the Second Supplemental order.  My feeling is these dates are like jello, and will probably change again.

https://governor.hawaii.gov/wp-cont...lamation-for-COVID-19-distribution-signed.pdf


----------



## Luanne

rickandcindy23 said:


> How long are we going to be held hostage in our homes for this virus?  I wanted to go to Kauai 6/6.  I won't cancel until the governor of Hawaii closes the state longer than 5/20.  I already have cancellations in RCI that I have to use the exchange fee by 6/30/2020.  I don't even know what to book with those exchange fee credits.
> 
> The islands depend on tourism.  I expect Hawaii to really suffer over this, so I hope the governor opens things up, and not just for my trip, but for the good of their economy.
> 
> Why are people making this political?  I am concerned for our country.


We will be held hostage until it is "safe".  And what "safe" looks like seems to be different.  There is now a coalition of governors on both the east and west coasts that are working together on criteria.

I'm sure all of us who have had to cancel things, vacations, conferences, etc. are very disappointed.  Personally I don't think we are going to travel through the rest of this year.  We've cancelled a trip to Seattle, our trip to NYC, and dd has had two work conferences (that she was looking forward to) cancelled.  Maybe I'm inserting my own, and my family's, paranoia (or whatever you want to call it) but I'd much rather cancel a trip than risk my health or that of my family and others.


----------



## Kapolei

Just pulled the trigger on an AC 2 bd MKO for last week in May.  Wish me luck. Says HTPPT.  Can’t find that old list that tells me the categories.


----------



## artringwald

rickandcindy23 said:


> Why are people making this political?


I can't answer why it's political, but it is a delicate balance between jobs and lives. Hawaii is shut down because they don't have the medical facilities and supplies to handle a large outbreak. They don't want people to die because of inadequate care. People will still get sick and die, but they don't want it to happen all at once. The responsible governors are looking at the data and listening to the experts to slowly open up to prevent a new surge in cases.


----------



## csodjd

Luanne said:


> We will be held hostage until it is "safe".  And what "safe" looks like seems to be different.  There is now a coalition of governors on both the east and west coasts that are working together on criteria.
> 
> I'm sure all of us who have had to cancel things, vacations, conferences, etc. are very disappointed.  Personally I don't think we are going to travel through the rest of this year.  We've cancelled a trip to Seattle, our trip to NYC, and dd has had two work conferences (that she was looking forward to) cancelled.  Maybe I'm inserting my own, and my family's, paranoia (or whatever you want to call it) but I'd much rather cancel a trip than risk my health or that of my family and others.


That's very understandable. 

I view it as more of a risk-benefit analysis, one that we each have to make individually because both the risk and benefit vary by individual. Nobody can take a trip to many places around the world without the risk of becoming sick as a result. Just drinking the water in Mexico can do it. So an element of risk is always there, it's just that the risk is low and the benefit "wins." 

As days go by we are becoming both better prepared in terms of precautions that we can take to avoid being infected and less likely to encounter a contagious person as social distancing and face masks do their work to reduce the transmission and number of contagious people. Hopefully over the next month or two we'll have good data on effective treatments that even further reduce the risk of serious (ICU level or maybe even hospitalization level) of illness. When you consider the disproportionate number of deaths from COVID in African Americans and the obese, if you subtract those from the mortality data we may find for a non-African American non-obese person, the incidence of ventilation need is dramatically lower, which further bends the risk for most people (those that are neither African-American or obese). 

So I'm factoring all those things into the decision if and when to travel, and to where. At some point I hope that the risk will have diminished to a reasonably small level. It has never been, and will never be, zero.


----------



## Kapolei

artringwald said:


> I can't answer why it's political, but it is a delicate balance between jobs and lives. Hawaii is shut down because they don't have the medical facilities and supplies to handle a large outbreak. They don't want people to die because of inadequate care. People will still get sick and die, but they don't want it to happen all at once. The responsible governors are looking at the data and listening to the experts to slowly open up to prevent a new surge in cases.



I believe a governor's primary job is the health and safety of the people of his or her state.  In the case of Hawaii, making the state safe will be good for both the people that live here and the tourists.  People just need to be a little patient and put up with inconveniences that are going to occur.  This is a new normal that still needs to be sorted out.


----------



## lynne

rickandcindy23 said:


> How long are we going to be held hostage in our homes for this virus?  I wanted to go to Kauai 6/6.  I won't cancel until the governor of Hawaii closes the state longer than 5/20.  I already have cancellations in RCI that I have to use the exchange fee by 6/30/2020.  I don't even know what to book with those exchange fee credits.
> 
> The islands depend on tourism.  I expect Hawaii to really suffer over this, so I hope the governor opens things up, and not just for my trip, but for the good of their economy.
> 
> Why are people making this political?  I am concerned for our country.



We completely understand that we need tourism, however the state will not open if there continues to be a large risk to the population here.  Our medical facilities are minimal (especially on Kauai).  Southwest has just announced flights not resuming (with the exception of a few) until June 28:









						Southwest Hawaii Stiffens Competition: 11 New Daily Flights Exposed
					

Lastest news on Southwest schedules and fares. Some routes continue to have great deals for summer. Find out more in today's post.



					beatofhawaii.com
				




Unfortunately our islands continue to be vulnerable.  The island of Hawaii has shut down timeshares, short term rentals, B&Bs and the majority of our hotels/resorts as non-essential businesses.  Kauai has implemented strict closures as well but not sure of the detail.  All of these are in place until further notice.


----------



## csodjd

lynne said:


> Southwest has just announced flights not resuming (with the exception of a few) until June 28:


Yet Hawaiian still says their flights in May are not "canceled." Anything to avoid having to refund....


----------



## Luanne

Gavin Newsom has outlined what it will take to re-open California, not when.  He is also working with the governors of the other western states.


----------



## VacationForever

Luanne said:


> Gavin Newsom has outlined what it will take to re-open California, not when.  He is also working with the governors of the other western states.


I know that.  Every governor, politician left or right is looking at how and when to re-open their economy.  I just cannot tolerate political posts on TUG where they sneak in their own judgment on their other party.


----------



## bnoble

csodjd said:


> I view it as more of a risk-benefit analysis, one that we each have to make individually because both the risk and benefit vary by individual.


There is an added factor to this particular situation, though, in that our actions can significantly impact those around us in ways that e.g. getting ill from drinking the water would not.


----------



## artringwald

bnoble said:


> There is an added factor to this particular situation, though, in that our actions can significantly impact those around us in ways that e.g. getting ill from drinking the water would not.


It's kind of like we have the right to have a bonfire in our backyard, but not when it's dry and windy.


----------



## NiteMaire

Kapolei said:


> Just pulled the trigger on an AC 2 bd MKO for last week in May.  Wish me luck. Says HTPPT.  Can’t find that old list that tells me the categories.


H = Developer week bulk 
TPPT = Penthouse Mountain view

Here's the list:








						Marriott II Unit Codes
					

Heyyyyy dioxide... We ended up with an exchange into MM1 coming up in May. It's an Ocean View Studio and the room code is TOGV.  Your list shows OVOG as the code but both II and Marriott's website are showing me TOGV with an OceanView description. Just wanted to let you know if an update is...




					tugbbs.com
				




According to @frank808 this will be in Naia Tower.  Here's his response a post asking about HTPPT.


frank808 said:


> You will be in naia tower with that code.  Could be looking at the mountain or towards diamond head in distance.  Maybe a view of the ocean to the right of balcony.


----------



## echino

If the resort is nearly empty, all villa assignment rules go out the window. They will likely accommodate your request for any villa.

I just spent three weeks at Waiohai, all II exchanges, and they gave me a great ocean view despite an island view code on II confirmation.


----------



## Kapolei

Thanks for the replies.  MKO is apparently still open. No pool or lagoon usage.  But a couple hundred bucks fee on the AC was too good to pass up.  PH sounds good.  I’ll use it even if everything is closed.  But I am hoping things will be open by then.


----------



## Luanne

Kapolei said:


> Thanks for the replies.  MKO is apparently still open. No pool or lagoon usage.  But a couple hundred bucks fee on the AC was too good to pass up.  PH sounds good.  I’ll use it even if everything is closed.  But I am hoping things will be open by then.


If the 14-day quarantine is still in place you will be as well. 

I think end of May is still too soon to expect things to be opened up, but I may be projecting my own paranoia into this prediction.


----------



## VacationForever

echino said:


> If the resort is nearly empty, all villa assignment rules go out the window. They will likely accommodate your request for any villa.
> 
> I just spent three weeks at Waiohai, all II exchanges, and they gave me a great ocean view despite an island view code on II confirmation.
> 
> View attachment 19146


Oh, how my heart longs for this.


----------



## Kapolei

Luanne said:


> If the 14-day quarantine is still in place you will be as well.
> 
> I think end of May is still too soon to expect things to be opened up, but I may be projecting my own paranoia into this prediction.



I am not subject to any quarantine orders.  Stay at home orders are different.  I could see arrival quarantines lasting longer than stay at home.  Time will tell.


----------



## Luanne

Kapolei said:


> I am not subject to any quarantine orders.  Stay at home orders are different.  I could see arrival quarantines lasting longer than stay at home.  Time will tell.


I almost added to my post the question if you were already on the island but didn't.


----------



## NiteMaire

Kapolei said:


> I am not subject to any quarantine orders. Stay at home orders are different. I could see arrival quarantines lasting longer than stay at home. Time will tell.


I'm hoping they won't have to extend the inter-island quarantine past the end of the month. It'll be a sign of progress...and we have a week at Point at Poipu at the beginning of May. Lodging and flight reservations are still valid. I figure we'll hear any day regarding any extension beyond April 30th.

There's talk about how Hawaii can gradually start lifting restrictions. I didn't catch the entire interview, but the Lt Gov said some things may be relaxed at the end of the month. The mayor of Honolulu issued an emergency order (starts Monday) making face masks mandatory for nearly all public situations. Kauai did something similar yesterday. The mask mandates may actually assist in relaxing some restrictions.


----------



## Kapolei

NiteMaire said:


> I'm hoping they won't have to extend the inter-island quarantine past the end of the month. It'll be a sign of progress...and we have a week at Point at Poipu at the beginning of May. Lodging and flight reservations are still valid. I figure we'll hear any day regarding any extension beyond April 30th.
> 
> There's talk about how Hawaii can gradually start lifting restrictions. I didn't catch the entire interview, but the Lt Gov said some things may be relaxed at the end of the month. The mayor of Honolulu issued an emergency order (starts Monday) making face masks mandatory for nearly all public situations. Kauai did something similar yesterday. The mask mandates may actually assist in relaxing some restrictions.



I am hoping we get a daily report in the next week or two that shows no new cases.  But that may be wishful thinking.  There may be no perfect answer.  At some point it will be damned if you do, damned if you don’t.


----------



## frank808

Kapolei said:


> Just pulled the trigger on an AC 2 bd MKO for last week in May. Wish me luck. Says HTPPT. Can’t find that old list that tells me the categories.


MV 2br penthouse villa non lock off. 

Might be in Kona tower as that is where all guests are right now.  

Also will be here so PM me if you want to meet up.  We are here till June 12. 
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## slip

If the inter-island quarantine is not extended. I will move my Molokai trip from the first two weeks of May to the last two weeks of May. I would be very happy with that.


----------



## slip

NiteMaire said:


> I'm hoping they won't have to extend the inter-island quarantine past the end of the month. It'll be a sign of progress...and we have a week at Point at Poipu at the beginning of May. Lodging and flight reservations are still valid. I figure we'll hear any day regarding any extension beyond April 30th.
> 
> There's talk about how Hawaii can gradually start lifting restrictions. I didn't catch the entire interview, but the Lt Gov said some things may be relaxed at the end of the month. The mayor of Honolulu issued an emergency order (starts Monday) making face masks mandatory for nearly all public situations. Kauai did something similar yesterday. The mask mandates may actually assist in relaxing some restrictions.



I heard they were also planning to have testing be a part of the relaxing of restrictions. If that’s the case that could delay things.


----------



## BJRSanDiego

I posted a survey on the Facebook Marriott Maui Ocean Club group asking people's opinions of when the quarantine might (in their opinion) be lifted.   I thought that the collective opinion of a few dozen people might be better than my own intuition.  Of course, no one really knows.  Here are the results:

"Lifting of the Quarantine? AFAIK, the quarantine does not have an expiration date. It is just "until further notice". And it doesn't appear that Hawaii has set any sort of lifting date.
So, I'm wondering what the collective thoughts are of when the quarantine is likely to be lifted and perhaps your thoughts WHY you think this..."

Results (to date):
July 1:  43 votes
Beginning of June: 29 votes
Mid May : 12 votes
August 31:  9 votes
December 2020: 5 votes
End of April:  2 votes

So the majority of people think that the quarantine will be stopped sometime during June.  It'll be interesting to see if the collective opinions of many has any predictive accuracy.


----------



## echino

My opinion is unfortunately things will get back to normal only after the majority of people are vaccinated. That will probably happen in about 1.5 or 2 years.


----------



## csodjd

Kapolei said:


> I am hoping we get a daily report in the next week or two that shows no new cases.  But that may be wishful thinking.  There may be no perfect answer.  At some point it will be damned if you do, damned if you don’t.


It doesn't necessarily need to get to zero cases, it needs to get to where if a case appears there is easy and quick ability to trace, test all those that had contact with the person, and quarantine as necessary so that there's no spread (or spread is limited and contained). The nature of virus is that zero cases is almost impossible without really good and widespread vaccination. A nice "added" feature would be if there is also a treatment that could be given to anyone testing positive that would remove risk of respiratory failure/ventilation/death.


----------



## csodjd

slip said:


> I heard they were also planning to have testing be a part of the relaxing of restrictions. If that’s the case that could delay things.


Emirates Airlines announced they are now performing pre-boarding testing for the virus and certification of those that pass on their flights departing Dubai.


----------



## jtp1947

I have cancelled our July MOC trip. I feel Hawaii tourism is suffering much more than I am. Hawaii will always be there and a one year hiatus is the least of my worries.


----------



## csodjd

jtp1947 said:


> I have cancelled our July MOC trip. I feel Hawaii tourism is suffering much more than I am. Hawaii will always be there and a one year hiatus is the least of my worries.


I still have a Danube Viking river cruise in late September scheduled. My challenge is that my wife has health issues and if we don't go this year, she may not be able to or even be around to do it a year later. So for me, the "one year hiatus" is one of my worries. On top of that, my step-daughter rescheduled her Maui wedding from May to November. So a trip to Hawaii is definitely planned for November!


----------



## Tamaradarann

Kapolei said:


> I am hoping we get a daily report in the next week or two that shows no new cases.  But that may be wishful thinking.  There may be no perfect answer.  At some point it will be damned if you do, damned if you don’t.



I totally agree with your comment "damned if you do , damned if you don't".  That was the point that I was making a few days ago about the pressure our leaders are under to make decisions with respect to this virus.  However, it looks like the President is encurraging those states that have had relatively few cases and want to take off restritions to do so in the near future.  My view on this for Hawaii, which has had relatively very few cases campared to other states is this:  If the other states that have had relatively few cases want to take off restrictions say by the end of April let them go first.  See what the the restrictions that they lift and the impact.   Then make decisions perhaps by the end of May for taking off restrictions.  The isolation of Hawaii makes it a special case for necessity for preventing the spread of infection.  I would not Lump Hawaii in with the other relatively few case states, but I would love to learn from what those other states experience in lifting restrictions before I lifted restrictions.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> I totally agree with your comment "damned if you do , damned if you don't".  That was the point that I was making a few days ago about the pressure our leaders are under to make decisions with respect to this virus.  However, it looks like the President is encurraging those states that have had relatively few cases and want to take off restritions to do so in the near future.  My view on this for Hawaii, which has had relatively very few cases campared to other states is this:  If the other states that have had relatively few cases want to take off restrictions say by the end of April let them go first.  See what the the restrictions that they lift and the impact.   Then make decisions perhaps by the end of May for taking off restrictions.  The isolation of Hawaii makes it a special case for necessity for preventing the spread of infection.  I would not Lump Hawaii in with the other relatively few case states, but I would love to learn from what those other states experience in lifting restrictions before I lifted restrictions.


Hawaii has an additional challenge that, say, Wyoming or North Dakota don't have, and that's that they have huge numbers that want to come in from elsewhere. It's one thing to manage/control virus spread within your state and state residents, another entirely to deal with "outsiders" from around the world.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> Hawaii has an additional challenge that, say, Wyoming or North Dakota don't have, and that's that they have huge numbers that want to come in from elsewhere. It's one thing to manage/control virus spread within your state and state residents, another entirely to deal with "outsiders" from around the world.



That is why I said that I wouldn't lump Hawaii in with the other states with relatively few cases.  However, waiting and seeing how those other states fair would assist in Hawaii with easing the restrictions on the current occupants of the state.   When it comes to travel, it would be folly for Hawaii to use any other State as an example.  There is no comparison.  However, there is also no comparison on the economic reliance of the tourist industry.  That brings me back to my first two sentences of my last comment.


----------



## csodjd

Here is an early description of the plan being introduced today by Trump. 









						Trump gives governors 3-phase plan to reopen economy
					

President Donald Trump unveiled his administration’s plans to ease social distancing requirements on a call Thursday with the nation’s governors.



					www.hawaiinewsnow.com
				




It appears to require at least a 28 day period from now before even the best of places can start reopening, and likely more because it presumes the availability of widespread testing before the time period can start.


----------



## Luanne

csodjd said:


> Here is an early description of the plan being introduced today by Trump.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump gives governors 3-phase plan to reopen economy
> 
> 
> President Donald Trump unveiled his administration’s plans to ease social distancing requirements on a call Thursday with the nation’s governors.
> 
> 
> 
> www.hawaiinewsnow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It appears to require at least a 28 day period from now before even the best of places can start reopening, and likely more because it presumes the availability of widespread testing before the time period can start.


And, if you noticed, he is leaving it up to the governors of each state to decide when it's appropriate to start.


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## csodjd

Luanne said:


> And, if you noticed, he is leaving it up to the governors of each state to decide when it's appropriate to start.


Yes. The total control is gone. It's now entirely at the discretion of the respective Governors. As it had to be. It's just a matter of basic Constitutional law that matters of public health are with the state, not the federal government. That's why there's no such thing as a medical license that licenses a doctor in every state.


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## PigsDad

Luanne said:


> And, if you noticed, he is leaving it up to the governors of each state to decide when it's appropriate to start.


Maybe he (or more likely, someone in his administration) read the Constitution and realized he doesn't have "total authority" over the states?

Kurt


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## csodjd

PigsDad said:


> Maybe he (or more likely, someone in his administration) read the Constitution and realized he doesn't have "total authority" over the states?
> 
> Kurt


Unfortunately, the reality of the modern government is that, though he/the President doesn't have Constitutional control, in many ways -- mostly money -- they do have control. States get so much of their funding through the Federal government they are about as independent from the Federal government as a doctor that gets 80% of his/her revenue from Medicare.


----------



## Kapolei

frank808 said:


> MV 2br penthouse villa non lock off.
> 
> Might be in Kona tower as that is where all guests are right now.
> 
> Also will be here so PM me if you want to meet up.  We are here till June 12.
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



Enjoy the peaceful times in the resort.  It is nice that things are slow, but this complete closure of the lagoon beaches and pathway is beginning to get old.  I am going to be looking for the first couple of weeks of June also at MKO with the ACs.  Can't beat getting a 2 bd for a week for less than the nightly price of a hotel.  I may be working at the time, but it is nice to stay there for a change of place.  Parking lot will be empty.  I imagine the rooms will be as clean as ever.  Would be nice to meet you when we check in the resort.


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## frank808

Kapolei said:


> Enjoy the peaceful times in the resort. It is nice that things are slow, but this complete closure of the lagoon beaches and pathway is beginning to get old. I am going to be looking for the first couple of weeks of June also at MKO with the ACs. Can't beat getting a 2 bd for a week for less than the nightly price of a hotel. I may be working at the time, but it is nice to stay there for a change of place. Parking lot will be empty. I imagine the rooms will be as clean as ever. Would be nice to meet you when we check in the resort.



Give me a ring in the room. I should still be in 11109/11111. I have been told they won't move me because there are no housekeepers on site. Management has told me I could stay in this room until checkout on June 12. 

Hope they keep their word if the restrictions are lifted, they are planning on a reopening of resort in mid May. 

Since you got a week for the price of an AC it is great. It has been 4 years or so that I have been able to get into MKO with and AC. In the past decade I have only used an AC about 4 times into MKO. This was when II had the make an exchange and get a free exchange into overdeveloped area by just paying the trade fee. 

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


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## Kapolei

It was more or less one of those throw away ACs that everyone gets.  Surprised it pulled MKO.  There are some more May weeks avail. for anyone on Oahu that wants to give it a shot.  Mid May sounds encouraging.  Sounds like there is a possibility of a soft reopening of resorts before the aviation floodgates are reopened.


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## VacationForever

Kapolei said:


> It was more or less one of those throw away ACs that everyone gets.  Surprised it pulled MKO.  There are some more May weeks avail. for anyone on Oahu that wants to give it a shot.  Mid May sounds encouraging.  Sounds like there is a possibility of a soft reopening of resorts before the aviation floodgates are reopened.


I didn't follow.  Do you have to fly to Oahu or do you live in Kapolei currently?


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## Kapolei

VacationForever said:


> I didn't follow.  Do you have to fly to Oahu or do you live in Kapolei currently?



I am nearby the resort.  We have stayed there many times over the years.


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## VacationForever

Kapolei said:


> I am nearby the resort.  We have stayed there many times over the years.


 We love MKO but it is a flight away and we cancelled our April stay back in January when it looked like COVID-19 was going to go bad.


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## Kapolei

VacationForever said:


> We love MKO but it is a flight away and we cancelled our April stay back in January when it looked like COVID-19 was going to go bad.



Koolina residents are basically walking the cart paths now.  The beach pathway has been closed for some time.

We live nearby and although we can easily access the beach without staying there, we enjoy staying at the resort. The landscaping and pools at MKO are first rate.  And the people staying there tend to be really nice.  Perhaps different than your average Waikiki tourist.  Great place for a staycation.


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## frank808

Kapolei said:


> It was more or less one of those throw away ACs that everyone gets. Surprised it pulled MKO. There are some more May weeks avail. for anyone on Oahu that wants to give it a shot. Mid May sounds encouraging. Sounds like there is a possibility of a soft reopening of resorts before the aviation floodgates are reopened.


Wish I didnt book out my stays for 2020. 

If I had any open weeks to fill this year, l would move my confirmed exchanges from May to later in the year. Then use AC to book these May weeks at MKO. 

First world problems for sure.

See you when you check in at the end of May.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## TravelTime

Companies in California are starting to announce that they will re-open slowly in waves. Some are saying it could be over a 12-18 month period. I can’t imagine Hawaii opening up to out of state tourists very quickly. I suspect they will want to protect their residents and keep restrictions in place until covid cases have gone way down, maybe until a vaccine is available.


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## frank808

TravelTime said:


> Companies in California are starting to announce that they will re-open slowly in waves. Some are saying it could be over a 12-18 month period. I can’t imagine Hawaii opening up to out of state tourists very quickly. I suspect they will want to protect their residents and keep restrictions in place until covid cases have gone way down, maybe until a vaccine is available.


That might work in a perfect world. But a lot of businesses will not be open if economy does not start withing the next month. Forget the businesses, a lot of people will not be able to make ends meet if it last much longer. Latest figures I saw on the news was about 25% of the workforce in Hawaii are unemployed. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

frank808 said:


> That might work in a perfect world. But a lot of businesses will not be open if economy does not start withing the next month. Forget the businesses, a lot of people will not be able to make ends meet if it last much longer. Latest figures I saw on the news was about 25% of the workforce in Hawaii are unemployed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



I agree it does not make economic sense but I think governments and large companies are trying to be ultra conservative. I read today that Michigan already has a 25% unemployment rate too. I just can‘t imagine the governments lifting restrictions too soon after shutting us down for so long already. The economy is already ruined. What’s a few more months or another year to save lives?


----------



## Kapolei

TravelTime said:


> I agree it does not make economic sense but I think governments and large companies are trying to be ultra conservative. I read today that Michigan already has a 25% unemployment rate too. I just can‘t imagine the governments lifting restrictions too soon after shutting us down for so long already. The economy is already ruined. What’s a few more months or another year to save lives?



It‘s interesting that some may be earning more on unemployment (once they get their checks) than before because they get unemployment plus the $600 a week stimulus.  This is for 4 months. I haven’t verified this.  Just what I read in the news.


----------



## VacationForever

Kapolei said:


> It‘s interesting that some may be earning more on unemployment (once they get their checks) than before because they get unemployment plus the $600 a week stimulus.  This is for 4 months. I haven’t verified this.  Just what I read in the news.


It is correct.  The senate bill that got passed did not put in a qualifier of up to the person's regular pay or $600, whichever is lower.  A few law makers noticed it before they voted but they decided not to hold it up.


----------



## slip

I also heard that some people’s hours were cut and they would make more being furloughed.


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## Kapolei

slip said:


> I also heard that some people’s hours were cut and they would make more being furloughed.



If life was fair, all the workers in the supermarkets and the food take-out places would be given a paid month off when this all over courtesy of Uncle Sam.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> It is correct.  The senate bill that got passed did not put in a qualifier of up to the person's regular pay or $600, whichever is lower.  A few law makers noticed it before they voted but they decided not to hold it up.



Does this mean that everyone who applies will get the extra $600 regardless of income? I have an employee asking for partial unemployment benefits and another one who is quitting. But they might all eventually ask for full unemployment benefits.


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> Does this mean that everyone who applies will get the extra $600 regardless of income? I have an employee asking for partial unemployment benefits and another one who is quitting. But they might all eventually ask for full unemployment benefits.


Yes.  As long as they are approved for unemployment, they get the $600 in addition to whatever unemployment pays for 4 months.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Kapolei said:


> If life was fair, all the workers in the supermarkets and the food take-out places would be given a paid month off when this all over courtesy of Uncle Sam.



I agree with your thoughts here on rewarding those that are helping to provide us with essential food during this crisis.   We are getting all our food without shopping in any store.  We order on line either for pickup at the door or delivery.  At times we can't get times since more people are doing this than capacity in the system.  The capacity in the system depends on workers shopping for us, giving us our food when we arrive, or delivering our food to our house.  These are relatively unskilled jobs so really anyone with a car can do them.  With the high unemployment right now there is an unlimited source of labor.  However, if people are eligible for the generous unemployment benefits they are unlikely to endanger catching this disease and give up these benefits if they are reemployed in these essential jobs to provide us with food.  Perhaps there should be a waiver of the elibility for unemployment benefits if one is reemployed in these types of jobs!


----------



## Kapolei

Oahu recorded a 0 today on the new cases.


----------



## csodjd

Kapolei said:


> Oahu recorded a 0 today on the new cases.


Only 4 in all of Hawaii, making tracing, isolation, and containment a walk in the park. The U of W model predicts no more deaths in Hawaii as of one week from today. Possible they'll get in ahead of even that. Hawaii has the potential to be the first state to essentially eliminate the virus. 

However, the challenge of Hawaii is that they cannot recover economically without literally inviting the virus back to the Islands. What they need to do is sit down with every airline that wants to fly there and make it easy, test each passenger before you take off, or don't come.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> Only 4 in all of Hawaii, making tracing, isolation, and containment a walk in the park. The U of W model predicts no more deaths in Hawaii as of one week from today. Possible they'll get in ahead of even that. Hawaii has the potential to be the first state to essentially eliminate the virus.
> 
> However, the challenge of Hawaii is that they cannot recover economically without literally inviting the virus back to the Islands. What they need to do is sit down with every airline that wants to fly there and make it easy, test each passenger before you take off, or don't come.



I heard about an immediate results test(15 minutes) for the virus.  Is it available and is it reliable?  If so I am ready for our September 21st schedule trip to be tested and fly.  If things work out we won't come back until it is over in the continental US.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> I heard about an immediate results test(15 minutes) for the virus.  Is it available and is it reliable?  If so I am ready for our September 21st schedule trip to be tested and fly.  If things work out we won't come back until it is over in the continental US.


As I understand it, it takes about 5 min to show a positive (you are infected) but up to 15 min to confirm a negative (you are not infected). It is available. It is the test Emirates is using in Dubai. It is certainly a test that needs to become much more widespread and available. 

But testing is tricky business. Until the sensitivity and specificity are good enough, it's a bit like playing Russian roulette.


----------



## controller1

Tamaradarann said:


> I heard about an immediate results test(15 minutes) for the virus.  Is it available and is it reliable?  If so I am ready for our September 21st schedule trip to be tested and fly.  If things work out we won't come back until it is over in the continental US.



I'm right there with you. We are so ready for our Sept 25th Hawaii trip.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> As I understand it, it takes about 5 min to show a positive (you are infected) but up to 15 min to confirm a negative (you are not infected). It is available. It is the test Emirates is using in Dubai. It is certainly a test that needs to become much more widespread and available.
> 
> But testing is tricky business. Until the sensitivity and specificity are good enough, it's a bit like playing Russian roulette.



So the question is that in theory the testing before boarding a plane to go to Hawaii is doable.  The question is: 

When will there be sufficient kits available with sensitivity and specificity good enough to have the airlines test during pre-boarding of passengers so that travellers to Hawaii will not spread the virus in the Hawaiian Islands?


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Tamaradarann said:


> So the question is that in theory the testing before boarding a plane to go to Hawaii is doable.  The question is:
> 
> When will there be sufficient kits available with sensitivity and specificity good enough to have the airlines test during pre-boarding of passengers so that travellers to Hawaii will not spread the virus in the Hawaiian Islands?


Emirates Airline is already doing it.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> So the question is that in theory the testing before boarding a plane to go to Hawaii is doable.  The question is:
> 
> When will there be sufficient kits available with sensitivity and specificity good enough to have the airlines test during pre-boarding of passengers so that travellers to Hawaii will not spread the virus in the Hawaiian Islands?


The test being used in Los Angeles for antibodies had a sensitivity of over 99.5%, so that was excellent. The specificity as a bit less certain, they said 70-90%. So it might be picking up some other virus. However, they tested it at Stanford before starting the study (to test/confirm the manufacturers data) and it was correct 100% of the time. So they went with it. However -- it was a blood draw analyzed at a lab. It was not a quicky test. Not sure the sensitivity and specificity of the "quick" test for infection.

So, yes, there's no point doing it if you don't have an antibody test and an infection test with very good sensitivity and specificity so that false results are rare. That said, at the other end -- in Hawaii -- it is also essential they have good testing and tracing available and ready so that anyone that slips through is quickly identified and their contacts found so any outbreak is contained. 

That's all going to be very doable over the next couple of months though.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> The test being used in Los Angeles for antibodies had a sensitivity of over 99.5%, so that was excellent. The specificity as a bit less certain, they said 70-90%. So it might be picking up some other virus. However, they tested it at Stanford before starting the study (to test/confirm the manufacturers data) and it was correct 100% of the time. So they went with it. However -- it was a blood draw analyzed at a lab. It was not a quicky test. Not sure the sensitivity and specificity of the "quick" test for infection.
> 
> So, yes, there's no point doing it if you don't have an antibody test and an infection test with very good sensitivity and specificity so that false results are rare. That said, at the other end -- in Hawaii -- it is also essential they have good testing and tracing available and ready so that anyone that slips through is quickly identified and their contacts found so any outbreak is contained.
> 
> That's all going to be very doable over the next couple of months though.



OK, then I am keeping my September plane and Hilton Hawaiian Village reservations and getting ready to pack!!


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> OK, then I am keeping my September plane and Hilton Hawaiian Village reservations and getting ready to pack!!


I'm two months behind you... but we're planning to be there in November (for my step-daughter's wedding in Hana, rescheduled from May).


----------



## Tamaradarann

Tamaradarann said:


> OK, then I am keeping my September plane and Hilton Hawaiian Village reservations and getting ready to pack!!



Well if September doesn't work out due to the virus I have reservations starting December 13 for a backup plan.  As they say in therapy you can't control what others do all you can do is control yourself and how you react to what others do.  So if it opens up and is safe in September it is a go, if not December.  In either case we will probably not come back until sometime in the spring of 2021.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> Well if September doesn't work out due to the virus I have reservations starting December 13 for a backup plan.  As they say in therapy you can't control what others do all you can do is control yourself and how you react to what others do.  So if it opens up and is safe in September it is a go, if not December.  In either case we will probably not come back until sometime in the spring of 2021.


Curious... how do you make that work where you can stay that long?


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> Curious... how do you make that work where you can stay that long?



Two ways.  First of all we have some RCI points as well as many HGVC points.  The HGVC system is very flexible and lets you custom your usage just about any way you want as long as you have enough points.  We have been staying from 3-5 months in Hawaii since 2009 using those points. 

However, we also purchased a condo in Honolulu that we are now renting.  Hopefully we will be able to stay there at some point and not have to come back at all unless we want to.


----------



## "Roger"

Here is a Forbes magazine article on how Hawaii is enforcing its 14 day quarantine.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> Two ways.  First of all we have some RCI points as well as many HGVC points.  The HGVC system is very flexible and lets you custom your usage just about any way you want as long as you have enough points.  We have been staying from 3-5 months in Hawaii since 2009 using those points.
> 
> However, we also purchased a condo in Honolulu that we are now renting.  Hopefully we will be able to stay there at some point and not have to come back at all unless we want to.


Did you do one of those lease deals in Honolulu where you lease the condo but not the land? 

We've got 24,200 pts at Lagoon Tower, so we could stretch that out for a while in a 1-BR, but would only do ocean view, so that cuts into it a bit. Certainly not 3-5 months. (Plus we have dogs that I hate being away from for even a week, which presents a whole new set of problems.)


----------



## rickandcindy23

I was hoping Hawaii would loosen up a bit, but they probably will not by June 6th.  I will wait until a week before our trip to cancel.  No point in doing it sooner.  Disappointing.


----------



## lynne

rickandcindy23 said:


> I was hoping Hawaii would loosen up a bit, but they probably will not by June 6th.  I will wait until a week before our trip to cancel.  No point in doing it sooner.  Disappointing.



You are probably correct.  It is unfortunate but the visitors who are arriving during the 14 day quarantine currently in place is ruining it for both the locals and any opportunity to open the state again.  I experienced this yesterday at the Mauna Lani resort.  We go there to walk around the roads and beaches and during our walk, any locals we encountered, one of us pulled over to the side of the beach so the other was able to pass and maintain social distancing.  There was a family from Alabama that decided to stand in the path at the fish ponds and have a very long discussion.  We moved over to a side area waiting for them to move on which they did not.   After a long period of time we went back on the trail and hoped to pass them with some distance between us.  They then decided to walk very close to us and start a conversation.  We immediately told them we need to social distance and they had no mask.    It was a very uncomfortable situation.  On other walks, we experienced visitors on their cell phones bragging to friends and family that they are in Hawaii and not taking the 14 day quarantine seriously.

I don't see how the state can open itself again to the locals knowing that visitors continue to come with a few providing false information, staying at un-permitted short term vacation rentals and not quarantining as ordered.   We would love to be able to go back to normal, but not at the expense of our health and safety.


----------



## csodjd

lynne said:


> You are probably correct.  It is unfortunate but the visitors who are arriving during the 14 day quarantine currently in place is ruining it for both the locals and any opportunity to open the state again.  I experienced this yesterday at the Mauna Lani resort.  We go there to walk around the roads and beaches and during our walk, any locals we encountered, one of us pulled over to the side of the beach so the other was able to pass and maintain social distancing.  There was a family from Alabama that decided to stand in the path at the fish ponds and have a very long discussion.  We moved over to a side area waiting for them to move on which they did not.   After a long period of time we went back on the trail and hoped to pass them with some distance between us.  They then decided to walk very close to us and start a conversation.  We immediately told them we need to social distance and they had no mask.    It was a very uncomfortable situation.  On other walks, we experienced visitors on their cell phones bragging to friends and family that they are in Hawaii and not taking the 14 day quarantine seriously.
> 
> I don't see how the state can open itself again to the locals knowing that visitors continue to come with a few providing false information, staying at un-permitted short term vacation rentals and not quarantining as ordered.   We would love to be able to go back to normal, but not at the expense of our health and safety.


It's a real challenge. I suspect a visitor from SF or LA would on average have a very different view and approach than one from, say, Georgia, given the differences being portrayed by their respective governments among other things. And, of course, that's not even speaking to the world outside the US. But I'm sure Hawaii won't open to tourists until they can implement uniform controls and standards. We have to resist the temptation to judge everyone based on the most ignorant among us.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Paranoia is rampant in Hawaii, I guess.  I wouldn't care about walking by someone without a mask.  6 feet is not all that far.  It's my husband's height.  So I don't get the paranoia when outside.  I do live on a huge lot and don't have neighbors within even 200 feet of me, and then there is a fence, so maybe I am just not paranoid enough to worry about walking by someone.  We have to get over the fear.  If we don't, our society has been ruined by a virus that proved to not be as fatal as originally thought.


----------



## Steve Fatula

rickandcindy23 said:


> I wouldn't care about walking by someone without a mask.  6 feet is not all that far.



I agree when outside, with wind, dispersal, and other factors, it's going to be vastly less likely to contract from someone else outside. I've seen a few articles stating this, and find it quite believable.


----------



## lynne

rickandcindy23 said:


> Paranoia is rampant in Hawaii, I guess.  I wouldn't care about walking by someone without a mask.  6 feet is not all that far.  It's my husband's height.  So I don't get the paranoia when outside.  I do live on a huge lot and don't have neighbors within even 200 feet of me, and then there is a fence, so maybe I am just not paranoid enough to worry about walking by someone.  We have to get over the fear.  If we don't, our society has been ruined by a virus that proved to not be as fatal as originally thought.



I agree as long as you are walking but coming up to someone and stopping to talk less than 3 feet away is not acceptable behavior.  We have come across many visitors who abide by the rules and have no issues.  On a tight trail, someone always steps to the side to allow passage and there are polite good mornings and everyone is on their way.  

We go to the local farmers market every week without any paranoia.  It's the few who make it impossible for everyone else.


----------



## DaveNV

lynne said:


> On a tight trail, someone always steps to the side to allow passage and there are polite good mornings and everyone is on their way.



At Costco yesterday people were dodging each other so much, it looked like a weird game of dodgeball.  

Dave


----------



## rickandcindy23

DaveNW said:


> At Costco yesterday people were dodging each other so much, it looked like a weird game of dodgeball.
> 
> Dave


I know it!  I was doing that at Walmart.  If someone was going down an aisle the wrong direction, I also kept pointing at the arrows on the floor.  I still worry, but as FDR said, "There is nothing to fear but fear itself."  I think this should resonate during this crisis.


----------



## csodjd

rickandcindy23 said:


> I know it!  I was doing that at Walmart.  If someone was going down an aisle the wrong direction, I also kept pointing at the arrows on the floor.  I still worry, but as FDR said, "There is nothing to fear but fear itself."  I think this should resonate during this crisis.


I see it as kind of a common sense approach, with a caveat. That caveat is simply to assume the other person is sick. Flu. Cold. Whatever. If you see someone that's sick, what do you do? You stay a bit away from them. You don't go stand next to someone that's obviously sick. Even your spouse! The only difference here is we simply must ASSUME they are sick (contagious) and behave accordingly. You don't walk up and hug or even shake hands with someone that has the flu. And if you feel sick, you tell people don't hug me or don't kiss me hello. Same kind of thinking and behavior is appropriate.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> Did you do one of those lease deals in Honolulu where you lease the condo but not the land?
> 
> We've got 24,200 pts at Lagoon Tower, so we could stretch that out for a while in a 1-BR, but would only do ocean view, so that cuts into it a bit. Certainly not 3-5 months. (Plus we have dogs that I hate being away from for even a week, which presents a whole new set of problems.)



Yes it is a leasehold where you own the condo but not the land.  It is the Wailana right across the street fromt the Hilton Hawaiian Village.  We may permanently relocate there since the convenience of the location is so much better than where we are on Long Island as we age and don't want to or can't drive.  We have not pets and our Son stays home in our house so that it is taken care of while we are gone.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> Yes it is a leasehold where you own the condo but not the land.  It is the Wailana right across the street fromt the Hilton Hawaiian Village.  We may permanently relocate there since the convenience of the location is so much better than where we are on Long Island as we age and don't want to or can't drive.  We have not pets and our Son stays home in our house so that it is taken care of while we are gone.


I know it's hard to generalize, but what does an ocean view go for? And what are the restrictions on rental, use, etc.?


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> I know it's hard to generalize, but what does an ocean view go for? And what are the restrictions on rental, use, etc.?



First of all what do you mean by an Ocean View?  The Hilton Hawaiian Village Towers block most of the ocean.  We are on the 14th floors and there is a small ocean view from our unit as with most of the units.  Some other units do have somewhat of a better ocean view than ours.  We have an excellent unobstructed view of Diamond Head since Fort Derussey park and parking lot is immediately in front of the building.  The layout and the floor level are more the determining factor in this 24 story condo than the ocean view.  The high floors go for more than the lower floors.  Most of the units are 2 BR, 2 Baths, 1100 square feet interior with a 120 square foot lanai.  The corner units are a couple hundred square feet more interior with a double size lanai.  The penthouses are floors 20--24 and are the biggest but significantly more expensive.  Each unit gets a parking space and 2 huge storage units right outside your condo door.  There is common storage on the 2nd and 3rd floors that we have utilized for many duffle bags and luggage before we left to come home since we are currently renting the condo so we couldn't use our storage units on the 14th floor.  Renting must be for more than 3 months since they do not want short term transients in the building.  

The cost of the leasehold units that are on sale now range from $140,000-$450,000.  The lower range are low floors 5-9.  Ours is a 50 year lease until 2069 at which time we won't be around which was one of the main attractions for us purchasing the unit.  There are some fee simple units(ones where you own the land as well as the condo) which start at around $550,000 most recently.


----------



## slip

Tamaradarann said:


> First of all what do you mean by an Ocean View?  The Hilton Hawaiian Village Towers block most of the ocean.  We are on the 14th floors and there is a small ocean view from our unit as with most of the units.  Some other units do have somewhat of a better ocean view than ours.  We have an excellent unobstructed view of Diamond Head since Fort Derussey park and parking lot is immediately in front of the building.  The layout and the floor level are more the determining factor in this 24 story condo than the ocean view.  The high floors go for more than the lower floors.  Most of the units are 2 BR, 2 Baths, 1100 square feet interior with a 120 square foot lanai.  The corner units are a couple hundred square feet more interior with a double size lanai.  The penthouses are floors 20--24 and are the biggest but significantly more expensive.  Each unit gets a parking space and 2 huge storage units right outside your condo door.  There is common storage on the 2nd and 3rd floors that we have utilized for many duffle bags and luggage before we left to come home since we are currently renting the condo so we couldn't use our storage units on the 14th floor.  Renting must be for more than 3 months since they do not want short term transients in the building.
> 
> The cost of the leasehold units that are on sale now range from $140,000-$450,000.  The lower range are low floors 5-9.  Ours is a 50 year lease until 2069 at which time we won't be around which was one of the main attractions for us purchasing the unit.  There are some fee simple units(ones where you own the land as well as the condo) which start at around $550,000 most recently.



That’s great that you got a leasehold that’s far out. We looked at them and on other islands too but the ones we liked had a leasehold about ten years too short. I can see where they can make a lot of sense if the dates work. Could you share the maintenance fees? They are all over the board in Hawaii and another big factor.

Are you going to rent your parking spot when  you move full time? That would generate some income.


----------



## paxsarah

csodjd said:


> I see it as kind of a common sense approach, with a caveat. That caveat is simply to assume the other person is sick.



I assume I am sick. Assume I have it and don't want to give it to anyone else. I don't go out to stores, save for grocery pickup (in-car) and once for paper products (and wear a mask when I do), and when I run, walk, or bike I give a wide berth to others (at least 10 feet) - not because I assume they're sick, but because I act as though I am.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> First of all what do you mean by an Ocean View?  The Hilton Hawaiian Village Towers block most of the ocean.  We are on the 14th floors and there is a small ocean view from our unit as with most of the units.  Some other units do have somewhat of a better ocean view than ours.  We have an excellent unobstructed view of Diamond Head since Fort Derussey park and parking lot is immediately in front of the building.  The layout and the floor level are more the determining factor in this 24 story condo than the ocean view.  The high floors go for more than the lower floors.  Most of the units are 2 BR, 2 Baths, 1100 square feet interior with a 120 square foot lanai.  The corner units are a couple hundred square feet more interior with a double size lanai.  The penthouses are floors 20--24 and are the biggest but significantly more expensive.  Each unit gets a parking space and 2 huge storage units right outside your condo door.  There is common storage on the 2nd and 3rd floors that we have utilized for many duffle bags and luggage before we left to come home since we are currently renting the condo so we couldn't use our storage units on the 14th floor.  Renting must be for more than 3 months since they do not want short term transients in the building.
> 
> The cost of the leasehold units that are on sale now range from $140,000-$450,000.  The lower range are low floors 5-9.  Ours is a 50 year lease until 2069 at which time we won't be around which was one of the main attractions for us purchasing the unit.  There are some fee simple units(ones where you own the land as well as the condo) which start at around $550,000 most recently.


What are the monthly costs? Seems the ideal (if allowed) would be to rent it out for six months for enough to cover the cost for a year, then have it for six months to use.


----------



## csodjd

paxsarah said:


> I assume I am sick. Assume I have it and don't want to give it to anyone else. I don't go out to stores, save for grocery pickup (in-car) and once for paper products (and wear a mask when I do), and when I run, walk, or bike I give a wide berth to others (at least 10 feet) - not because I assume they're sick, but because I act as though I am.


I suppose the safe play is to assume both.


----------



## bnoble

paxsarah said:


> I assume I am sick. Assume I have it and don't want to give it to anyone else. I don't go out to stores, save for grocery pickup (in-car) and once for paper products (and wear a mask when I do), and when I run, walk, or bike I give a wide berth to others (at least 10 feet) - not because I assume they're sick, but because I act as though I am.


This times 1,000.


----------



## Tamaradarann

slip said:


> That’s great that you got a leasehold that’s far out. We looked at them and on other islands too but the ones we liked had a leasehold about ten years too short. I can see where they can make a lot of sense if the dates work. Could you share the maintenance fees? They are all over the board in Hawaii and another big factor.
> 
> Are you going to rent your parking spot when  you move full time? That would generate some income.



The maintenance and lease fees are not inexpensive but easily doable for our situation if we move full time.   If we try to keep our home on Long Island it will still be doable but we will not have funds to take trips to other areas of the world like we like to do.  We didn't want a mortgage, even though you can get one with a 50 year lease so we paid cash to buy it.  The maintenance, including a significant amount of reserve to avoid special assesments, is about $1100/month.  The lease fee is about $1000/month.  Our home, cars, and heated in the ground pool on Long Island, which we own without a mortgage and car payments, costs us about $2000/month.  So while we are not saving any money with the Condo we are not spending any more either.   

We plan on renting our parking spot since we have stayed at the Hilton Hawaiian Village for over 1000 nights in the last 12 years without a car we know it is very doable.  We get a Senior Bus Pass for $35/year.  The bus going Eva stops right outside the Condo;  the bus going toward Diamond Head stops in front of the Hilton Hawaiian Village Grand Islander.  There is a waiting list for parking spots in the Condo and the spots go for around $200/month.


----------



## slip

Tamaradarann said:


> The maintenance and lease fees are not inexpensive but easily doable for our situation if we move full time.   If we try to keep our home on Long Island it will still be doable but we will not have funds to take trips to other areas of the world like we like to do.  We didn't want a mortgage, even though you can get one with a 50 year lease so we paid cash to buy it.  The maintenance, including a significant amount of reserve to avoid special assesments, is about $1100/month.  The lease fee is about $1000/month.  Our home, cars, and heated in the ground pool on Long Island, which we own without a mortgage and car payments, costs us about $2000/month.  So while we are not saving any money with the Condo we are not spending any more either.
> 
> We plan on renting our parking spot since we have stayed at the Hilton Hawaiian Village for over 1000 nights in the last 12 years without a car we know it is very doable.  We get a Senior Bus Pass for $35/year.  The bus going Eva stops right outside the Condo;  the bus going toward Diamond Head stops in front of the Hilton Hawaiian Village Grand Islander.  There is a waiting list for parking spots in the Condo and the spots go for around $200/month.



That sounds like it worked out perfect for you. We talked to many realtors and bankers when we were seriously looking. Molokai even had a few units that were leasehold but the lease was way too few years. We could have gotten a mortgage on a leasehold as long as the lease had 20 years left but it was pretty restrictive and 20 years wouldn’t cut it for us but those options are out there for others.

I remember you always saying how much you took the bus and walked so I thought you may rent your parking space.

One positive you didn’t mention was all that maintenance you don’t have to do or take your time trying to find someone to do it. That is one thing that was a huge plus for us.

Hope this ends soon so you can come back and enjoy your place!!


----------



## controller1

I think a drunk driver could stay in his lane better than this thread has!


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> The maintenance and lease fees are not inexpensive but easily doable for our situation if we move full time.   If we try to keep our home on Long Island it will still be doable but we will not have funds to take trips to other areas of the world like we like to do.  We didn't want a mortgage, even though you can get one with a 50 year lease so we paid cash to buy it.  The maintenance, including a significant amount of reserve to avoid special assesments, is about $1100/month.  The lease fee is about $1000/month.  Our home, cars, and heated in the ground pool on Long Island, which we own without a mortgage and car payments, costs us about $2000/month.  So while we are not saving any money with the Condo we are not spending any more either.
> 
> We plan on renting our parking spot since we have stayed at the Hilton Hawaiian Village for over 1000 nights in the last 12 years without a car we know it is very doable.  We get a Senior Bus Pass for $35/year.  The bus going Eva stops right outside the Condo;  the bus going toward Diamond Head stops in front of the Hilton Hawaiian Village Grand Islander.  There is a waiting list for parking spots in the Condo and the spots go for around $200/month.


What is the rental situation if you only want to stay in your leased space for, say, 4-6 months. Can you rent it out? What is the going rate? My ideal would be to rent it for six months and have it available to stay in for six months. Hopefully the rent would be enough to cover the yearly cost, but I have no idea if that's true or not.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> What is the rental situation if you only want to stay in your leased space for, say, 4-6 months. Can you rent it out? What is the going rate? My ideal would be to rent it for six months and have it available to stay in for six months. Hopefully the rent would be enough to cover the yearly cost, but I have no idea if that's true or not.



You can rent it for any time beyond 3 months so that you certainly could stay for. 4-6 months and rent it the rest of the year.  We are renting ours right now with a 1 year lease.  If we didn't rent it out we would be in Honolulu right now rather than NY.  We wanted to get it to rent right away so we priced it on the low side at the low side at $2400/month and it rented the next month.  We have seen others rent for up to $3000/month but if it stays vacant for a period of time that you want to rent it you lose the entire months rent.  Usually long term rentals of 6 months or more go for less per month than short term.  In addition, the rental law in Hawaii requires you to charge and pay a 14% tax for rentals that are less than 6 months.  Therefore, our property manager, who found the tennant and is managing the property while we are off island, recommended renting for at least 6 months.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> You can rent it for any time beyond 3 months so that you certainly could stay for. 4-6 months and rent it the rest of the year.  We are renting ours right now with a 1 year lease.  If we didn't rent it out we would be in Honolulu right now rather than NY.  We wanted to get it to rent right away so we priced it on the low side at the low side at $2400/month and it rented the next month.  We have seen others rent for up to $3000/month but if it stays vacant for a period of time that you want to rent it you lose the entire months rent.  Usually long term rentals of 6 months or more go for less per month than short term.  In addition, the rental law in Hawaii requires you to charge and pay a 14% tax for rentals that are less than 6 months.  Therefore, our property manager, who found the tennant and is managing the property while we are off island, recommended renting for at least 6 months.


Great info. Thanks. I assume your property manager is paid about 20% of the rental fee?


----------



## frank808

csodjd said:


> Great info. Thanks. I assume your property manager is paid about 20% of the rental fee?


Usually it is 10% of the gross rental per month in Hawaii. You can get better rates for multiple properties with the same property manager.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> Great info. Thanks. I assume your property manager is paid about 20% of the rental fee?



No, he and his staff are really very good in getting the tennant, taking care of the necessary repairs, and delivery of the stove that needed to be replaced.  He charges 10% which sounded very reasonably to me.   We used him as our closing agent with the stipulation that he was experienced and prepared to manage the property after the closing.


----------



## pedro47

Ok , Tuggers, do you feel mainland tourists can visit Hawaii without been quarantine next May 2021?


----------



## controller1

pedro47 said:


> Ok , Tuggers, do you feel mainland tourists can visit Hawaii without been quarantine next May 2021?



Yes. If not then the Hawaiian economy will be devastated by that time as no one is going to be visiting the state if a 14-day quarantine is required. The state's economy cannot withstand 1+ years with the tourist industry essentially closed.


----------



## chellej

We are headed to Hanalei bay in Jan 2021....I actually would not mind being quarantined there the whole 2 weeks as long as we could get groceries and take out.  It's kind of what we want to do anyways...sit on the Lanai and read....as long as we get a good view.


----------



## Tamaradarann

controller1 said:


> Yes. If not then the Hawaiian economy will be devastated by that time as no one is going to be visiting the state if a 14-day quarantine is required. The state's economy cannot withstand 1+ years with the tourist industry essentially closed.



I agree with you.  That is why I have made comment showing sympathy for Governor Ige needing to decide to between totally closing down Hawaii to incoming travellers back in March or leaving it open.  He decided on a 14 day quarantine which, for the most part, closed down Hawaii to tourists.  Now he will need to decide when to remove the 14 day quarantine requirement so that Hawaii can start being open for business.  It probably will not return to 2019 numbers for many months and perhaps years.


----------



## Luanne

pedro47 said:


> Ok , Tuggers, do you feel mainland tourists can visit Hawaii without been quarantine next May 2021?


I hope so. We want to go back to Maui in March 2021.


----------



## zentraveler

We have just put in requests for January 2021 and are hoping that we can travel by then. Would love to go in November but suspect that will be too soon to bet on.


----------



## bnoble

pedro47 said:


> Ok , Tuggers, do you feel mainland tourists can visit Hawaii without been quarantine next May 2021?


There is only one way to know for sure!


----------



## "Roger"

Article from the Hawaii Tribune Herald (applies to the Big Island)

*Tourism official lays out his vision for industry reboot*


----------



## Luanne

"Roger" said:


> Article from the Hawaii Tribune Herald (applies to the Big Island)
> 
> *Tourism official lays out his vision for industry reboot*


I didn't really find a lot of information in that.


----------



## slip

Luanne said:


> I didn't really find a lot of information in that.



I just read the same thing before you posted and thought that there was no information in there.


----------



## csodjd

Luanne said:


> I hope so. We want to go back to Maui in March 2021.


I've got reservations for Oahu and Maui in both November and next March. I expect Hawaii to be open, even if somewhat different.


----------



## Luanne

csodjd said:


> I've got reservations for Oahu and Maui in both November and next March. I expect Hawaii to be open, even if somewhat different.


We've owned on Maui since 1986 and have been there many, many times.  I'm happy to be able to go back even if things are somewhat different.  As long as the beaches are open and I can get food somewhere, I'll be fine.


----------



## csodjd

pedro47 said:


> Ok , Tuggers, do you feel mainland tourists can visit Hawaii without been quarantine next May 2021?


Hawaii obviously cannot survive on the business generated by its own residents. They tax need revenue from hotels, and tax revenue from hotel and restaurant employees. They will find a way to reopen. They are not far from having a covid-free state. Maybe a few more weeks and they may go days without a single case. Then they'll develop a plan for reopening tourism. I expect it will involve some testing (kind of the way they handle it when a tourist wants to bring a dog in) before coming or upon arriving. If you test positive, you are quarantined. If you travel with someone that tests positive, you must test again a day or two days later, or both. Better if you have to be tested before getting on a plane, however.


----------



## csodjd

Luanne said:


> We've owned on Maui since 1986 and have been there many, many times.  I'm happy to be able to go back even if things are somewhat different.  As long as the beaches are open and I can get food somewhere, I'll be fine.


I'm picturing the dining along the walk in Kaannapali. They'll have tables, nicely separated. They'll test their employees -- come to work, do an Abbot rapid test, start your shift. No need for a mask if you aren't infected.


----------



## Luanne

csodjd said:


> I'm picturing the dining along the walk in Kaannapali. They'll have tables, nicely separated. They'll test their employees -- come to work, do an Abbot rapid test, start your shift. No need for a mask if you aren't infected.


We're in Kihei.  I wouldn't even mind take out. Bring it back and eat out on our lanai.


----------



## JanT

Just in case anyone is thinking of heading to Hawaii, I found this article in the news from today.  Hawaii is taking the 14-day quarantine VERY seriously.









						Three visitors arrested in Hawaii for breaking quarantine rules
					

Matthew Young, 27, his girlfriend Makynzie Anderson, 24, and their mutual friend 39-year old Caleb Conrad were all arrested and charged with breaking self-quarantine in Hilo, Hawaii.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Luanne

JanT said:


> Just in case anyone is thinking of heading to Hawaii, I found this article in the news from today.  Hawaii is taking the 14-day quarantine VERY seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three visitors arrested in Hawaii for breaking quarantine rules
> 
> 
> Matthew Young, 27, his girlfriend Makynzie Anderson, 24, and their mutual friend 39-year old Caleb Conrad were all arrested and charged with breaking self-quarantine in Hilo, Hawaii.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


I don't think anyone who has posted recently is talking about going to Hawaii anytime soon.  Most of the wonderings have been when we can go, when will the quarantine be lifted.


----------



## artringwald

When hurricane Iniki hit Hawaii in 1992, it caused an estimated $1.8 billion in damage. Crop damage was also extensive, destroying tropical fruit, plants and sugar cane. The worst damage was on Kauai. With most of the resorts damaged, it took many years for Kauai tourism to recover. We went there in 1998, and tourism was still rather light. I hope it won't take years for Hawaii to recover from COVID-19, but at this point, it's hard for anyone to predict.


----------



## Luanne

artringwald said:


> When hurricane Iniki hit Hawaii in 1992, it caused an estimated $1.8 billion in damage. Crop damage was also extensive, destroying tropical fruit, plants and sugar cane. The worst damage was on Kauai. With most of the resorts damaged, it took many years for Kauai tourism to recover. We went there in 1998, and tourism was still rather light. I hope it won't take years for Hawaii to recover from COVID-19, but at this point, it's hard for anyone to predict.


Did it take so long for Kauai to recover because of the massage damage and the need to rebuild?

I remember Iniki well.  We were on Maui and the last flight out to get home before they shut down that airport.  Our next door neighbor was from Kauai and she had a lot of family, including her parents, living in the area that was the worst hit. She didn't know for several days if they were dead or alive.  Luckily they did survive. Her dad came to California and was buying generators to have sent back to Kauai.


----------



## artringwald

Luanne said:


> Did it take so long for Kauai to recover because of the massage damage and the need to rebuild?



Everything in Hawaii seems to move slowly. With many homes destroyed as well as resorts, and a limited number of construction workers and materials, it was a long process. The the slow speed of insurance claims, changes in in construction codes, and changes in zoning requirements increased the time to repair or replace all the damage. Twenty eight years later, Coco Palms still lies in ruins. It took 17 years before the Poipu Beach Hotel reopened as the Koʻa Kea Hotel. Of course COVID-19 won't cause any property damage, but if shops, restaurants, and resorts go bankrupt, it could take a long time before they reopen. When we were in Poipu in February, there was new construction in progress in several areas. Will the builders go bankrupt before they're able to complete and sell all the new properties? Will people want to travel as much? Will as many people be able to afford to travel? The future is certainly uncertain.


----------



## csodjd

artringwald said:


> When hurricane Iniki hit Hawaii in 1992, it caused an estimated $1.8 billion in damage. Crop damage was also extensive, destroying tropical fruit, plants and sugar cane. The worst damage was on Kauai. With most of the resorts damaged, it took many years for Kauai tourism to recover. We went there in 1998, and tourism was still rather light. I hope it won't take years for Hawaii to recover from COVID-19, but at this point, it's hard for anyone to predict.


I read an article this morning that was speaking mostly of the big island, but generally about Hawaii. They were saying that his is a chance for Hawaii to "reboot" its tourism and tourism plans, and that they'd like to return with fewer tourists at higher costs -- in other words, more revenue per tourist. The idea is to offer more at tourist locations, cultural sites, etc, but at a higher price. Also have fewer short-term rentals and more hotel rentals. 

https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.co...cial-lays-out-his-vision-for-industry-reboot/

I for one would not mind if it was less crowded and you could get into restaurants without making a reservation a week or two before we even fly over.


----------



## Kapolei

csodjd said:


> I read an article this morning that was speaking mostly of the big island, but generally about Hawaii. They were saying that his is a chance for Hawaii to "reboot" its tourism and tourism plans, and that they'd like to return with fewer tourists at higher costs -- in other words, more revenue per tourist. The idea is to offer more at tourist locations, cultural sites, etc, but at a higher price. Also have fewer short-term rentals and more hotel rentals.
> 
> https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.co...cial-lays-out-his-vision-for-industry-reboot/
> 
> I for one would not mind if it was less crowded and you could get into restaurants without making a reservation a week or two before we even fly over.



They were already significantly cracking down on AirBnb.  These vacation property owners have very little political power.  But they really have a safer way to house tourists If they were strictly regulated and required cleaning from licensed companies with strict protocols.  Hotels are much more vulnerable.  But hotels have the political clout. So I expect policy to be driven by the mega stakeholders.


----------



## JanT

I didn't mean to imply that anyone had been talking about going.  Just found the article and shared it in case anyone *was* thinking of trying to go during the quarantine.



Luanne said:


> I don't think anyone who has posted recently is talking about going to Hawaii anytime soon.  Most of the wonderings have been when we can go, when will the quarantine be lifted.


----------



## rickandcindy23

JanT said:


> I didn't mean to imply that anyone had been talking about going.  Just found the article and shared it in case anyone *was* thinking of trying to go during the quarantine.


I haven't cancelled our flights to Kauai for 6/6.  Our son was going to the Big Island on 6/6 and then joining us at Shearwater that second week.  I am waiting a while to cancel, but I know it's inevitable.


----------



## pedro47

Luanne said:


> I didn't really find a lot of information in that.


It is better to remain silent, then to have release this article. IMO.


----------



## bnoble

I disagree.  The underlying message of that article was interesting. It didn’t convey concrete plans. But when a guy whose job is* promoting tourism on the Big Island* says maybe there should be fewer tourists, that’s notable. It’s one thing for that to come from community organizers. It’s another from someone like this.


----------



## JanT

I'm so sorry - but let's keep praying that something shifts and you'll be able to go.  We have a trip to Ko'Olina planned for mid-October but I'm thinking even that may be iffy.



rickandcindy23 said:


> I haven't cancelled our flights to Kauai for 6/6.  Our son was going to the Big Island on 6/6 and then joining us at Shearwater that second week.  I am waiting a while to cancel, but I know it's inevitable.


----------



## Luanne

bnoble said:


> I disagree.  The underlying message of that article was interesting. It didn’t convey concrete plans. But when a guy whose job is* promoting tourism on the Big Island* says maybe there should be fewer tourists, that’s notable. It’s one thing for that to come from community organizers. It’s another from someone like this.


It was the title of the article that was misleading to me.  It said he was sharing his "vision".  Personally I didn't see much vision in there.


----------



## csodjd

Luanne said:


> It was the title of the article that was misleading to me.  It said he was sharing his "vision".  Personally I didn't see much vision in there.


I think the "vision" is fewer tourists spending more.


----------



## bnoble

Right. The reason that’s interesting is the message is usually _more_ tourists spending more. Think about what it might mean for The Powers That Be on an island to try to discourage visitors at the lower end of the per-visit spend range...


----------



## csodjd

bnoble said:


> Right. The reason that’s interesting is the message is usually _more_ tourists spending more. Think about what it might mean for The Powers That Be on an island to try to discourage visitors at the lower end of the per-visit spend range...


Yes. It changes everything. That's the point of the article. It is a "reboot" where they can look at what they've done in the past that was good, what was bad, what unintended consequences arose, and then start over and do things differently and -hopefully- better.


----------



## Luanne

csodjd said:


> I think the "vision" is fewer tourists spending more.


I guess what I was looking for was more of a plan.  I should have realized that a vision can be kind of murky.


----------



## controller1

bnoble said:


> Right. The reason that’s interesting is the message is usually _more_ tourists spending more. Think about what it might mean for The Powers That Be on an island to try to discourage visitors at the lower end of the per-visit spend range...



I think the tourism official is hinting that Hawaii doesn't want those tourists who come for two weeks and cook their own meals. I believe he is saying you're not welcome unless you come, eat out, go on activities, etc. Don't come to just sit on the beach and cook your own meals!


----------



## Luanne

controller1 said:


> I think the tourism official is hinting that Hawaii doesn't want those tourists who come for two weeks and cook their own meals. I believe he is saying you're not welcome unless you come, eat out, go on activities, etc. Don't come to just sit on the beach and cook your own meals!


In other words he doesn't want timeshare people.


----------



## Kapolei

controller1 said:


> I think the tourism official is hinting that Hawaii doesn't want those tourists who come for two weeks and cook their own meals. I believe he is saying you're not welcome unless you come, eat out, go on activities, etc. Don't come to just sit on the beach and cook your own meals!



Remember Hawaii is over a million people and part of the USA.  Policies, fees, and taxes can be skewed one way or another.  But under the United States Constitution, Hawaii belongs to all citizens of the USA.


----------



## lynne

Stay-at-home order extended through May 31 - West Hawaii Today
					

Gov. David Ige has signed a sixth supplementary emergency proclamation extending the stay-at-home order across the state through May 31.




					www.westhawaiitoday.com
				




Also extended through the end of May — the 14-day quarantine for both visitors and residents entering the state and for inter-island travelers.


----------



## Tamaradarann

controller1 said:


> I think the tourism official is hinting that Hawaii doesn't want those tourists who come for two weeks and cook their own meals. I believe he is saying you're not welcome unless you come, eat out, go on activities, etc. Don't come to just sit on the beach and cook your own meals!



The tourist official is making a statement that may be his vision and desire and the vision and desire of others who want to benefit economically from tourism but want to keep Hawaii the way it once was with less tourists.  It is nice to say that they want less tourists but want them to spend more.  That is a nice vision for them.  I have nice visions also like a 3 bedroom penthouse on the ocean forever but visions don't always come to fruitiion. 

Just because that is their vision doesn't mean that tourist will comply with their vision.  First of all once the effects of the virus are reduced to the point where tourist will be allowed to come, stay, and enjoy their vacation in a reasonable mammer and not be quarantined the numbers will be down.  The hotels, restaurants, tour companies, and shop owners are going to be extremely glad to see tourists; any tourists.  There will be promotions and discounts like some of the entertainment book deals back in the 2009-2011 when the economy was just coming back from the previous recession.  Second of all many tourists including timeshare owners and renters come back to Hawaii year after year sometimes for many weeks or even months.   They have done the touristy stuff that costs money.   The don't spend money on the Hotels.  They eat out occasionally, but not all the meals.  Particularly not breakfast and lunch.  They may buy some gifts and discretionary merchandise but less than the first or second time coming.   Third, the recession will make people somewhat cautious about spending too much on vacations.  Hawaii is known for being an expensive vacation so if tourists get the impression that Hawaii has gotten more expensive they will go to other locations and Hawaii will suffer.


----------



## controller1

lynne said:


> Stay-at-home order extended through May 31 - West Hawaii Today
> 
> 
> Gov. David Ige has signed a sixth supplementary emergency proclamation extending the stay-at-home order across the state through May 31.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.westhawaiitoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also extended through the end of May — the 14-day quarantine for both visitors and residents entering the state and for inter-island travelers.



Here is the Sixth Supplemental Order from Gov. Ige.



			https://governor.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2004144-ATG_Sixth-Supplementary-Proclamation-for-COVID-19-distribution-signed.pdf


----------



## frank808

Just spent a nice hour in lagoon in front of Marriott Koolina. Was just my son and I. Definitely quiet and relaxing. No one else at lagoon since the public parking lots are still closed. Only lagoon closed is in front of Aulani as they are doing sand reclamation there.

I have never seen the water so clear since the 80's. Was able to spot fish and see the bottom all the way out to the breakers. Water reminded me of St John's in clarity. Though no where as warm as the Caribbean. 

Also walking along the pathways are also allowed now.

Some small progress towards normalcy.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Kapolei

frank808 said:


> Just spent a nice hour in lagoon in front of Marriott Koolina. Was just my son and I. Definitely quiet and relaxing. No one else at lagoon since the public parking lots are still closed. Only lagoon closed is in front of Aulani as they are doing sand reclamation there.
> 
> I have never seen the water so clear since the 80's. Was able to spot fish and see the bottom all the way out to the breakers. Water reminded me of St John's in clarity. Though no where as warm as the Caribbean.
> 
> Also walking along the pathways are also allowed now.
> 
> Some small progress towards normalcy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



I heard about that in a FB group.  They are trying to keep quiet about it so a lot of outsiders don’t walk into the resort from the bus stop to use the lagoons.


----------



## pedro47

controller1 said:


> Here is the Sixth Supplemental Order from Gov. Ige.
> 
> 
> 
> https://governor.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2004144-ATG_Sixth-Supplementary-Proclamation-for-COVID-19-distribution-signed.pdf



The Governor of Hawaii have laid off a very detail plan to control the coronavirus in his state.


----------



## chellej

Hawaii coronavirus stay-at-home order, quarantine for travelers extended to May 31
					

A stay-at-home order and mandatory quarantine for travelers in Hawaii has been extended through the end of May, with the governor saying Saturday the threat for coronavirus remains in the state.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## TravelTime

This is bad news but does not surprise me. I assumed Hawaii would be pretty conservative. I assume they will extend the tourist quarantine again after this one. They will probably open up to residents first and then eventually lift the tourist quarantines.


----------



## Coloradorunner

I guess I’m glad I didn’t buy all of those tempting May Marriott $250 accommodation certificate weeks to Hawaii then!!! 

(I’m just kidding. I looked, but wasn’t going to actually go.)


----------



## Kapolei

Coloradorunner said:


> I guess I’m glad I didn’t buy all of those tempting May Marriott $250 accommodation certificate weeks to Hawaii then!!!
> 
> (I’m just kidding. I looked, but wasn’t going to actually go.)



Got a May week because I am here.  I have two more AC’s to use but I am waiting to see if June shows up.  I prefer the resort when it is operating.


----------



## Coloradorunner

Kapolei said:


> Got a May week because I am here.  I have two more AC’s to use but I am waiting to see if June shows up.  I prefer the resort when it is operating.



I’m jealous that you were already there. Those AC prices are amazing. The first time I saw Hawaii appear with an AC, I couldn’t believe it!


----------



## JanT

I honestly thought about picking up some of the Ko'Olina weeks (intending for them to be back-to-back) and just going ahead and doing the 14 day quarantine and after that enjoying a few more weeks there.  I'm worn out after a long couple of years of watching over my elderly mother and am just now truly grieving her passing in December.  I'd like the comfort and peacefulness of being in a place that I've grown to love so very much through the years.  In the end though, I just couldn't do it because I was worried that it would be forcing them to keep staff on just to accommodate a few guests.  I would rather them be able to let their staff stay at home and avoid becoming exposed.  It was a wonderful thought for a few minutes though.


----------



## Kapolei

JanT said:


> I honestly thought about picking up some of the Ko'Olina weeks (intending for them to be back-to-back) and just going ahead and doing the 14 day quarantine and after that enjoying a few more weeks there.  I'm worn out after a long couple of years of watching over my elderly mother and am just now truly grieving her passing in December.  I'd like the comfort and peacefulness of being in a place that I've grown to love so very much through the years.  In the end though, I just couldn't do it because I was worried that it would be forcing them to keep staff on just to accommodate a few guests.  I would rather them be able to let their staff stay at home and avoid becoming exposed.  It was a wonderful thought for a few minutes though.



the quarantine is very unpleasant...  it might be manageable for a returning resident, but it is basically house arrest for two weeks


----------



## Tamaradarann

Kapolei said:


> the quarantine is very unpleasant...  it might be manageable for a returning resident, but it is basically house arrest for two weeks


I agree with you.  I was in Hawaii when I heard that Governor Ige issued the 14 quarentine order for all incoming people.  I said that basically the order was a nice way of saying "You can't come here".


----------



## frank808

JanT said:


> I honestly thought about picking up some of the Ko'Olina weeks (intending for them to be back-to-back) and just going ahead and doing the 14 day quarantine and after that enjoying a few more weeks there. I'm worn out after a long couple of years of watching over my elderly mother and am just now truly grieving her passing in December. I'd like the comfort and peacefulness of being in a place that I've grown to love so very much through the years. In the end though, I just couldn't do it because I was worried that it would be forcing them to keep staff on just to accommodate a few guests. I would rather them be able to let their staff stay at home and avoid becoming exposed. It was a wonderful thought for a few minutes though.


Staff is here working. All front of house, concierge, valet, etc are on furlough. But resort has 5 rooms occupied here so there is a skeleton staff. Actually it is the managers running the front desk for the past couple weeks. 

Very relaxing and quiet.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Tamaradarann

frank808 said:


> Staff is here working. All front of house, concierge, valet, etc are on furlough. But resort has 5 rooms occupied here so there is a skeleton staff. Actually it is the managers running the front desk for the past couple weeks.
> 
> Very relaxing and quiet.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



We don't go to Honolulu to relax.  We can and do relax at home and will be relaxing soon by the pool at home in our wooden private  backyard.  We are home bodies on Long Island from October-April with very little to do but relax since the weather is too cold and not conducive to our liking.  That is why Hawaii weather is so desirable all year long.  We are out everyday walking around; going to the beach, going food shoppng; going to shows, theatre, symphonies, breweries, and dinner without a car when we are in Honolulu.  When the weather gets warm here next month and for the summer, if the virus wasn't an issue, we would be doing the same thing here on Long Island.


----------



## JanT

It would be a little more difficult than what I'm doing here at home since I do go out for a walk daily but my only other excursions have been curbside pickup for groceries about every 10 days.  So, it would be doable for me simply because it would force me to rest which I need badly.  BUT, as I said, I'm not going - it was something that entered my mind and left almost as quickly.



Kapolei said:


> the quarantine is very unpleasant...  it might be manageable for a returning resident, but it is basically house arrest for two weeks


----------



## JanT

I don't think it said, "You can't come here," but it was a nice way of telling us to all stay home.  LoL  I have no intention of going - it was just a momentary wish from a tired person who could use a little island time.  I'll get that when Hawaii finally opens up again.



Tamaradarann said:


> I agree with you.  I was in Hawaii when I heard that Governor Ige issued the 14 quarentine order for all incoming people.  I said that basically the order was a nice way of saying "You can't come here".


----------



## JanT

I knew you were there from your previous posts.  So glad you are getting to work from such a beautiful place.  Was the 14-day quarantine in place when you first arrived?



frank808 said:


> Staff is here working. All front of house, concierge, valet, etc are on furlough. But resort has 5 rooms occupied here so there is a skeleton staff. Actually it is the managers running the front desk for the past couple weeks.
> 
> Very relaxing and quiet.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Tamaradarann

JanT said:


> I don't think it said, "You can't come here," but it was a nice way of telling us to all stay home.  LoL  I have no intention of going - it was just a momentary wish from a tired person who could use a little island time.  I'll get that when Hawaii finally opens up again.



I agree with you on the meaning of the words in the message.  However, I was in Honolulu, which is the tourist center of Hawaii, hotels and resorts started to close and the feeling of the locals that we know and speak with offen was that the Governor should shut off ALL TOURISTS COMING HERE.  I remember thinking that before they start closing the hotels and resorts they should stop tourists from coming because once they get here, where will they stay?  Right after that Governor Ige issued the 14 day quarantine.  That is where I got the feeling from the 14 day quarantine that "it was a nice way of telling people you can't come" rather than issuing a directive to not come.


----------



## csodjd

In the Governor's newest (6th) order that extends the quarantine to May 31 there is some interesting language. I'm not sure exactly what it means. It says, "With respect to persons residing in hotels, condominiums, townhomes, apartments, or other multi-unit dwellings, “place of residence” means the person’s individual hotel room or unit. *To the extent persons use shared or outdoor spaces* when outside their residence, they must comply with the social distancing requirements set forth herein to the fullest extent possible."

I am wondering what that means with respect to, say, a TS location like Ko Olina or Hilton Hawaiian Village. The "shared" outdoor spaces... would that mean if you comply with social distancing requirements you can use the outdoor facilities of the complex? Pools? BBQ's. Whatever else the complex has to offer?

By analogy, if you have a home with a pool, the quarantine doesn't mean you cannot leave the inside of your residence, you could go into your yard and use your BBQ and pool. So is this saying the same thing about those staying in a hotel or other "multi-unit dwelling" like a TS complex?


----------



## frank808

csodjd said:


> In the Governor's newest (6th) order that extends the quarantine to May 31 there is some interesting language. I'm not sure exactly what it means. It says, "With respect to persons residing in hotels, condominiums, townhomes, apartments, or other multi-unit dwellings, “place of residence” means the person’s individual hotel room or unit. *To the extent persons use shared or outdoor spaces* when outside their residence, they must comply with the social distancing requirements set forth herein to the fullest extent possible."
> 
> I am wondering what that means with respect to, say, a TS location like Ko Olina or Hilton Hawaiian Village. The "shared" outdoor spaces... would that mean if you comply with social distancing requirements you can use the outdoor facilities of the complex? Pools? BBQ's. Whatever else the complex has to offer?
> 
> By analogy, if you have a home with a pool, the quarantine doesn't mean you cannot leave the inside of your residence, you could go into your yard and use your BBQ and pool. So is this saying the same thing about those staying in a hotel or other "multi-unit dwelling" like a TS complex?



I would take it to mean you can use the shared areas of the unit with social distancing. 

Unfortunately all pools, hot tubs, steam rooms etc at HHV and Marriott Koolina are closed. You can walk around the resort and use the lagoon for swimming or another activity but sunbathing on sand is not allowed.

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


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## frank808

JanT said:


> I knew you were there from your previous posts. So glad you are getting to work from such a beautiful place. Was the 14-day quarantine in place when you first arrived?


I am a resident of Oahu. If I had to self quarantine, it would have been the same as staying here at MKO. The only difference is I would have food and groceries delivered for the 14 days of quarantine instead of going out and buying it myself.

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


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## JanT

I didn't realize you were a resident.  Well that is just too fun!  You're blessed in many ways.  It's beautiful there and I've always wanted to own a condo at Ko'Olina.  



frank808 said:


> I am a resident of Oahu. If I had to self quarantine, it would have been the same as staying here at MKO. The only difference is I would have food and groceries delivered for the 14 days of quarantine instead of going out and buying it myself.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


----------



## frank808

Tamaradarann said:


> We don't go to Honolulu to relax. We can and do relax at home and will be relaxing soon by the pool at home in our wooden private backyard. We are home bodies on Long Island from October-April with very little to do but relax since the weather is too cold and not conducive to our liking. That is why Hawaii weather is so desirable all year long. We are out everyday walking around; going to the beach, going food shoppng; going to shows, theatre, symphonies, breweries, and dinner without a car when we are in Honolulu. When the weather gets warm here next month and for the summer, if the virus wasn't an issue, we would be doing the same thing here on Long Island.



So you definitely would not like to stay out here at Ko olina then. Too far from what you want to do. It would be to quiet and boring here as occupancy is 
We can relax by any of the 4 pools here but can't go into any of the them! Have to make do by using one of the deserted lagoons. The lagoons are very nice and clean. Actually the the water has been the clearest I have seen in almost 35 years.

You can walk around, go to beach and shop for food here in Honolulu now. Just can't do any of the other activities you mentioned. 

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


----------



## frank808

JanT said:


> I didn't realize you were a resident. Well that is just too fun! You're blessed in many ways. It's beautiful there and I've always wanted to own a condo at Ko'Olina.


We are definitely blessed and lucky to be able to live here in Hawaii! We just have to deal with increased costs of living in paradise. I call it the living in paradise surcharge.

I found it cheaper to buy Marriott timeshares than buying a comparable condo here at the beach villas. Plus with a timeshare, there is the flexibility of exchanging into any of the Marriott TS worldwide.

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


----------



## csodjd

frank808 said:


> We are definitely blessed and lucky to be able to live here in Hawaii! We just have to deal with increased costs of living in paradise. I call it the living in paradise surcharge.
> 
> I found it cheaper to buy Marriott timeshares than buying a comparable condo here at the beach villas. Plus with a timeshare, there is the flexibility of exchanging into any of the Marriott TS worldwide.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


The beauty of the condo to me is the ability to leave your stuff there, making it so easy to go. No packing. Everything down to your toothbrush is waiting for you. I've weighed that back and forth. The idea of being able to hop on a plane from California with basically no luggage, just a small carry on, get a ride to the condo, and have everything ready to go is appealing.


----------



## lynne

Tamaradarann said:


> I agree with you on the meaning of the words in the message.  However, I was in Honolulu, which is the tourist center of Hawaii, hotels and resorts started to close and the feeling of the locals that we know and speak with offen was that the Governor should shut off ALL TOURISTS COMING HERE.  I remember thinking that before they start closing the hotels and resorts they should stop tourists from coming because once they get here, where will they stay?  Right after that Governor Ige issued the 14 day quarantine.  That is where I got the feeling from the 14 day quarantine that "it was a nice way of telling people you can't come" rather than issuing a directive to not come.



This was from March 16 press conference with the Governor "“Close the airport”,  was the ongoing demand by viewers of today’s press conference, posting this to social media. When asked, the governor did not say, he was disagreeing. He said, he was concerned, but he didn’t have the authority to close the airport. Such authority is with Federal authorities."  

Governor Ige did everything he could to stop the visitor travel travel into the state but could not close down the airports.  Thanks to the low airfare, visitors are still coming to the islands and not adhering to the quarantine restrictions.  The state is now attempting to get a better tracking procedure but it is not foolproof.  Also discussed is to set up a quarantine center where all incoming passengers will be sent for 14 days when they arrive.   

Most of the hotels are closed.  All of the short term vacation rentals and bed & breakfasts are considered non-essential but somehow these places are still accepting visitors who are flying under the radar.

I would be a godsend if the state could open up to residents first but the influx of visitors, although small is still impacting the ability for the state to get back to a semi-normal existence.  If the state opens some businesses, the visitors will come and the state will be at an increased risk again.  Catch 22.


----------



## Tamaradarann

frank808 said:


> So you definitely would not like to stay out here at Ko olina then. Too far from what you want to do. It would be to quiet and boring here as occupancy is
> We can relax by any of the 4 pools here but can't go into any of the them! Have to make do by using one of the deserted lagoons. The lagoons are very nice and clean. Actually the the water has been the clearest I have seen in almost 35 years.
> 
> You can walk around, go to beach and shop for food here in Honolulu now. Just can't do any of the other activities you mentioned.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk



Ko Olina is too far from what we like to do during normal times that is why we love staying at the Hilton Hawaiian Village.  We were there from December 22-March 23.  From the time we got there until March 7th we attending many activities and things were fine.  The last event we went to was Jeff Shimabukuro at the Blue Note on March 7th.    We are glad we left when we did then since the streets got more and more desolate and somewhat dangerous with less and less to do.  We are also glad we caught the 2nd to last direct flight from HNL to JFK which was so empty that we had no one in our row, in front of us or behind us.


----------



## Tamaradarann

lynne said:


> This was from March 16 press conference with the Governor "“Close the airport”,  was the ongoing demand by viewers of today’s press conference, posting this to social media. When asked, the governor did not say, he was disagreeing. He said, he was concerned, but he didn’t have the authority to close the airport. Such authority is with Federal authorities."
> 
> Governor Ige did everything he could to stop the visitor travel travel into the state but could not close down the airports.  Thanks to the low airfare, visitors are still coming to the islands and not adhering to the quarantine restrictions.  The state is now attempting to get a better tracking procedure but it is not foolproof.  Also discussed is to set up a quarantine center where all incoming passengers will be sent for 14 days when they arrive.
> 
> Most of the hotels are closed.  All of the short term vacation rentals and bed & breakfasts are considered non-essential but somehow these places are still accepting visitors who are flying under the radar.
> 
> I would be a godsend if the state could open up to residents first but the influx of visitors, although small is still impacting the ability for the state to get back to a semi-normal existence.  If the state opens some businesses, the visitors will come and the state will be at an increased risk again.  Catch 22.



Perhaps you are correct that the Governor couldn't close the airport, therefore, his 14 day quarantine directive was the best he had the authority to do.  That is why I got the feeling that he was saying you can't come here since the directive was so undisireable for visitors.  Frankly, since I know how things are there now versus how they are normally are I wouldn't want to go for a $1 flight to have to stay in my room for 14 days.  I guess some people are coming and disobeying the directive.  I read about the couple on Kauai were arrested for violating the 14 quarantine order with a possible $5000 fine.


----------



## lynne

Tamaradarann said:


> Perhaps you are correct that the Governor couldn't close the airport, therefore, his 14 day quarantine directive was the best he had the authority to do.  That is why I got the feeling that he was saying you can't come here since the directive was so undisireable for visitors.  Frankly, since I know how things are there now versus how they are normally are I wouldn't want to go for a $1 flight to have to stay in my room for 14 days.  I guess some people are coming and disobeying the directive.  I read about the couple on Kauai were arrested for violating the 14 quarantine order with a possible $5000 fine.




So true.  We have also had instances on Hawaii island and Oahu where guests were impervious to quarantine and have been fined and in some cases sent back to the mainland.  

We lived on Long Island for most of our lives before moving here almost 14 years ago.  It is wonderful that you live in a wooded, open area.  We lived in Northport for 20 years and watched as the family farms were sold to developers and replaced with houses.  It became almost impossible to drive in the area due to traffic.  We are now in an agricultural zoned area where development is restricted and the homes are far apart.  We miss Long Island but not the traffic.


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## frank808

Tamaradarann said:


> Perhaps you are correct that the Governor couldn't close the airport, therefore, his 14 day quarantine directive was the best he had the authority to do. That is why I got the feeling that he was saying you can't come here since the directive was so undisireable for visitors. Frankly, since I know how things are there now versus how they are normally are I wouldn't want to go for a $1 flight to have to stay in my room for 14 days. I guess some people are coming and disobeying the directive. I read about the couple on Kauai were arrested for violating the 14 quarantine order with a possible $5000 fine.


There was just a couple from Las Vegas that got caught and arrested. They were released, then checked out of the hotel that turned them in and into another hotel. Broke quarantine immediately again and there was a hunt for them. Got caught again and were escorted to airport for a flight back. Read they were being belligerent toward officers and were entitled. Officers had to escort them to plane and made sure they were on the flight. 

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


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## frank808

Tamaradarann said:


> Ko Olina is too far from what we like to do during normal times that is why we love staying at the Hilton Hawaiian Village. We were there from December 22-March 23. From the time we got there until March 7th we attending many activities and things were fine. The last event we went to was Jeff Shimabukuro at the Blue Note on March 7th. We are glad we left when we did then since the streets got more and more desolate and somewhat dangerous with less and less to do. We are also glad we caught the 2nd to last direct flight from HNL to JFK which was so empty that we had no one in our row, in front of us or behind us.


Can't stay that long in Waikiki. We usually stay 4 to 5 weeks when we return from our summer vacation. Just long enough to eat at some good restaurants, take some shows in and then back to Koolina. Plus our home is 5 minutes away from Marriott Koolina. 

Actually have a reservation at Lagoon from June to Aug if we are not going on our summer vacation. Luckily there was availability from June to July at HHV. 

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


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## frank808

csodjd said:


> The beauty of the condo to me is the ability to leave your stuff there, making it so easy to go. No packing. Everything down to your toothbrush is waiting for you. I've weighed that back and forth. The idea of being able to hop on a plane from California with basically no luggage, just a small carry on, get a ride to the condo, and have everything ready to go is appealing.


Rent a small storage unit in Kapolei for $60 a month and store your things there. Store things in a rollaway or those big plastic storage cubes. 

One idea that we might implement instead of buying a home in Florida near a cruise port. Less maintenance and not having anything to worry about a vacant home.


Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


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## Tamaradarann

lynne said:


> So true.  We have also had instances on Hawaii island and Oahu where guests were impervious to quarantine and have been fined and in some cases sent back to the mainland.
> 
> We lived on Long Island for most of our lives before moving here almost 14 years ago.  It is wonderful that you live in a wooded, open area.  We lived in Northport for 20 years and watched as the family farms were sold to developers and replaced with houses.  It became almost impossible to drive in the area due to traffic.  We are now in an agricultural zoned area where development is restricted and the homes are far apart.  We miss Long Island but not the traffic.



Where we live on Long Island is nice during this virus crisis since we can easily distance ourselves from others.  We have cars to pickup food that we pre-order from Sam's and Shop Rite, have no elevators or people to pass going to and from our house, have a large private backyard with a private pool.  The traffic is bad but not as bad as Honolulu.  In Honolulu we were in the Hilton Hawaiian Village with elevators and passing people all the time.  No car since we normally walk or take the bus.  No private yard or pool.  However, we usually love Honolulu because we don't need a car and there is so much going on right around us. 

We have been thru KamuelaI(Waimea) on the Island of Hawaii and stopped for gas and bathrooms on the way from Hilo to Waikoloa.  Nice littel town.  We love the group Kahulanui and saw them at Gertrudes in Kailua-Kona on December 8th.  They do a song Waimea and are from your island.  Have you ever seen them?


----------



## lynne

Tamaradarann said:


> Where we live on Long Island is nice during this virus crisis since we can easily distance ourselves from others.  We have cars to pickup food that we pre-order from Sam's and Shop Rite, have no elevators or people to pass going to and from our house, have a large private backyard with a private pool.  The traffic is bad but not as bad as Honolulu.  In Honolulu we were in the Hilton Hawaiian Village with elevators and passing people all the time.  No car since we normally walk or take the bus.  No private yard or pool.  However, we usually love Honolulu because we don't need a car and there is so much going on right around us.
> 
> We have been thru KamuelaI(Waimea) on the Island of Hawaii and stopped for gas and bathrooms on the way from Hilo to Waikoloa.  Nice littel town.  We love the group Kahulanui and saw them at Gertrudes in Kailua-Kona on December 8th.  They do a song Waimea and are from your island.  Have you ever seen them?



I do volunteer work at Kahilu Theatre in Waimea, or at least I did until the shutdown.  We have seen Kahulanui many times.  We have quite a few local musicians who are world class.  They mainly tour the pacific northwest and Japan.  We still have family in New York and normally visit every other year.  We are on 3.5 acres here and 27 miles of roads within the ranch.   The elevation goes from 400 - 3000 ft so we can enjoy differences in climate when we go to the upper roads.  There are equestrian paths surrounding both sides of the development.   Quite a different environment from our time on Long Island.  We do miss the spring and fall weather and colors but we never had this kind of view in Northport.  Staying at home here is not so bad.   Thank goodness I took rustic bread baking classes in NY before moving to Hawaii.  It certainly comes in handy now.


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## amy241

This doesn’t sound very welcoming - they are talking about ankle bracelets for tourists like they use for house arrest or a guarded location to remain while under quarantine — and these ideas are proposed for after the state begins to reopen to tourism.










						Passenger quarantines aren’t likely to end once Hawaii reopens
					

When Hawaii opens up, the passenger quarantine isn’t expected to end right away.




					www.staradvertiser.com


----------



## Tamaradarann

It isn't welcoming and if the more restrictive quarantine checks are implemented and continue Hawaii won't get the level of tourists that it needs to economically survive.  If they implement it now, since the country and the world is still at a very high virus spread level point, it wouldn't matter much economically since most people are not ready to travel.   However, if they implement or continue it in the summer which is a peak vacation time and the country most probably will be getting to a low virus spread time they will kill or delay the economic return.  Mufi Hannemann, president and CEO of the Hawaii Lodging & Tourism Association has the same opinion.  By the way Mufi was the Mayor of Honolulu about 10 years ago.  Jerry Gibson who we know personally from the Hilton Hawaiian Village also said the same thing and stressed the need for  testing before people come not restrictive quarantine checks.  I am in total agreement with both of them.




amy241 said:


> This doesn’t sound very welcoming - they are talking about ankle bracelets for tourists like they use for house arrest or a guarded location to remain while under quarantine — and these ideas are proposed for after the state begins to reopen to tourism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Passenger quarantines aren’t likely to end once Hawaii reopens
> 
> 
> When Hawaii opens up, the passenger quarantine isn’t expected to end right away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.staradvertiser.com


----------



## amy241

Tamaradarann said:


> It isn't welcoming and if the more restrictive quarantine checks are implemented and continue Hawaii won't get the level of tourists that it needs to economically survive.  If they implement it now, since the country and the world is still at a very high virus spread level point, it wouldn't matter much economically since most people are not ready to travel.   However, if they implement or continue it in the summer which is a peak vacation time and the country most probably will be getting to a low virus spread time they will kill or delay the economic return.  Mufi Hannemann, president and CEO of the Hawaii Lodging & Tourism Association has the same opinion.  By the way Mufi was the Mayor of Honolulu about 10 years ago.  Jerry Gibson who we know personally from the Hilton Hawaiian Village also said the same thing and stressed the need for  testing before people come not restrictive quarantine checks.  I am in total agreement with both of them.



By testing, do you mean to check for an active Covid19 infection or to check for antibodies? I haven’t had it and don’t want it. If they allow only those with some level of immunity, it will exclude me and the vast majority of people. It would be better to check for active infections. We just bought a unit at MKO in 2019 with usage to begin in 2020 and haven’t even been able to use it. This would have been our first year of use. There seems to be a negativity to tourists that the pandemic is bringing out - maybe it was always there but more pronounced now - and it makes me sad. We had a 37 day trip involving 3 islands that was cancelled. We were to depart April 24th and would be there now if not for this crisis.


----------



## JanT

Wow!  Ankle bracelets?  Ummmmm....I can't imagine most people will be on board with that.  I understand their concern and I agree with them needing to limit infection rate, etc., but that's a bit much.  They'll need to figure it out but doing something that drastic will kill the economy there.


----------



## bnoble

JanT said:


> They'll need to figure it out but doing something that drastic will kill the economy there.


I think the point of the 14-day quarantine is to discourage any short-term tourism at all. Someone who is willing to abide by the quarantine is not going to worry about it---it's not like it would be hard to guess where they were, they are in their hotel/condo/whatever. But someone who won't may not come, and I think the frustration of having to pay to put noncompliant tourists on return flights has reached its limit. It's a conscious decision, and while I'm glad I'm not the one who has to make it, I don't begrudge the decision.


----------



## csodjd

bnoble said:


> I think the point of the 14-day quarantine is to discourage any short-term tourism at all. Someone who is willing to abide by the quarantine is not going to worry about it---it's not like it would be hard to guess where they were, they are in their hotel/condo/whatever. But someone who won't may not come, and I think the frustration of having to pay to put noncompliant tourists on return flights has reached its limit. It's a conscious decision, and while I'm glad I'm not the one who has to make it, I don't begrudge the decision.


I think it is tougher to decide when and how to let people start coming back than it was to stop them from coming. Hawaii was fairly easy to close, and is particularly vulnerable on reopening. Not many places deal with the diverse scope of people wanting to come there and the risk that poses to undoing all they sacrificed to get to where they are now.


----------



## amy241

csodjd said:


> I think it is tougher to decide when and how to let people start coming back than it was to stop them from coming. Hawaii was fairly easy to close, and is particularly vulnerable on reopening. Not many places deal with the diverse scope of people wanting to come there and the risk that poses to undoing all they sacrificed to get to where they are now.



Florida is in a similar situation (huge tourist destination) but without the island geography. I live in Florida and our state government has not really done anything effective to discourage tourism — there is no enforcement like you see going on in Hawaii. Nonetheless, there has been no talk of ankle bracelets, centrally guarded quarantine locations, etc. In some ways, Florida could take a lesson from Hawaii. i am in south Florida (think epicenter) and we have a significant number of New York tourists. One of the reasons that our infection rate is so high is that they all fled here when it became apparent Cuomo was going to need to lock down the state.


----------



## csodjd

amy241 said:


> Florida is in a similar situation (huge tourist destination) but without the island geography. I live in Florida and our state government has not really done anything effective to discourage tourism — there is no enforcement like you see going on in Hawaii. Nonetheless, there has been no talk of ankle bracelets, centrally guarded quarantine locations, etc. In some ways, Florida could take a lesson from Hawaii. i am in south Florida (think epicenter) and we have a significant number of New York tourists. One of the reasons that our infection rate is so high is that they all fled here when it became apparent Cuomo was going to need to lock down the state.


Perhaps that's why we see Florida has 5X the number of deaths per capita than Hawaii, 4X the number of cases per capita, and we see this difference in the Projections that just came out?

FLORIDA:




HAWAII:


----------



## amy241

csodjd said:


> Perhaps that's why we see Florida has 5X the number of deaths per capita than Hawaii, 4X the number of cases per capita, and we see this difference in the Projections that just came out?
> 
> FLORIDA:
> View attachment 19780
> 
> HAWAII:
> View attachment 19781


Oh, without a doubt, these factors are part of it. Another factor is that we have a huge elderly population and certainly that has unfortunately contributed to our death rate. I hate the fact that our governor described Florida as “God’s Waiting Room” recently.


----------



## JIMinNC

csodjd said:


> Perhaps that's why we see Florida has 5X the number of deaths per capita than Hawaii, 4X the number of cases per capita, and we see this difference in the Projections that just came out?
> 
> FLORIDA:
> View attachment 19780
> 
> HAWAII:
> View attachment 19781



Comparing Florida and Hawaii is not really a fair comparison in my opinion. As an island, it's much easier to restrict access to Hawaii as it's all by air, and the drastic reduction of demand/flights, make that easy. Florida can be accessed by three interstate highways and many more state and federal highways, so the practicality of cutting it off from the rest of the nation is logistically unlikely and legally questionable as well. Access is so much easier in the continental U.S. Even Hawaii has had difficulty enforcing a quarantine order with the limited new arrivals, so it would be basically impossible for Florida to enforce it. They initially tried setting up checkpoints on I-95, but the resulting traffic backups made that a poor choice.

In the end, the tactics states and municipalities have taken to discourage travel rather than expressly prohibit it are probably the best approaches in a non-totalitarian state. Even in Michigan where they initially said property owners could not travel to their vacation homes, I believe I read where the real threat of legal action has forced them to back off of that more draconian order.


----------



## caribbeanqueen

Amy we have a vacation home in Venice. My parents are in Port Charlotte. My mom is in a nursing home there and just had 3 workers and one patient test positive. My mom's roommate was sent to the hospital with covid 19 symptoms but her results are not back. Meantime my mom has been put into isolation with no sign of symptoms-yet. Sadly it is indeed considered God's waiting room because of the huge elderly population. It will be interesting to see if the cases spike due to beaches opening back up to walking.
We were hoping to go to Maui this year sometime. It will be our 40th anniversary in December. My husband keeps saying he wants to spend a month there. Doesn't sound like they want to open to visitors anytime soon!


----------



## amy241

caribbeanqueen said:


> Amy we have a vacation home in Venice. My parents are in Port Charlotte. My mom is in a nursing home there and just had 3 workers and one patient test positive. My mom's roommate was sent to the hospital with covid 19 symptoms but her results are not back. Meantime my mom has been put into isolation with no sign of symptoms-yet. Sadly it is indeed considered God's waiting room because of the huge elderly population. It will be interesting to see if the cases spike due to beaches opening back up to walking.
> We were hoping to go to Maui this year sometime. It will be our 40th anniversary in December. My husband keeps saying he wants to spend a month there. Doesn't sound like they want to open to visitors anytime soon!


 I’m so sorry to hear your mom’s elder care facility is dealing with Covid19. I hope that your mom will be safe and that her results are negative. We rebooked our trip for 11/21 - 12/22. I hope we are able to go then. I have a small fortune into first class airfare from the mainland and a series of inter island flights.


----------



## Kapolei

caribbeanqueen said:


> Amy we have a vacation home in Venice. My parents are in Port Charlotte. My mom is in a nursing home there and just had 3 workers and one patient test positive. My mom's roommate was sent to the hospital with covid 19 symptoms but her results are not back. Meantime my mom has been put into isolation with no sign of symptoms-yet. Sadly it is indeed considered God's waiting room because of the huge elderly population. It will be interesting to see if the cases spike due to beaches opening back up to walking.
> We were hoping to go to Maui this year sometime. It will be our 40th anniversary in December. My husband keeps saying he wants to spend a month there. Doesn't sound like they want to open to visitors anytime soon!



success against this virus is a double-edge sword.  There is almost zero immunity in Hawaii right now.  Even if you multiply the 600 cases by ten, you have only 6000 people out of 1 million that have some level of immunity.  I think you are correct, Hawaii will not being allowing random, untested arrivals without quarantine for some time to come.
But I don’t think it has anything to do with wanting or not wanting people.  It has to do with all arrivals.  As a resident, I can’t leave without the same problem coming back.


----------



## JIMinNC

caribbeanqueen said:


> It will be interesting to see if the cases spike due to beaches opening back up to walking.



I still don't understand the aversion to localities opening up beaches. The chances of being infected while walking on the beach - or sitting on the beach in a chair - are very small in the open air and sunlight as long as people observe the same social distancing protocols they observe elsewhere.

I think a lot of the recent concern stems from some of the photos that circulated after Duval County (Jacksonville) opened their beaches. But the photos/videos that made the national news seemed to all be shot with long zoom lenses. As a photographer myself, I point out to people that zoom lenses compress perspective and make distant objects appear closer together and closer to objects in the foreground than they really are. We photographers use that feature of zoom lenses all the time to create interesting and unique images. It can also be used to make areas appear more crowded than they really are. I saw a local JAX media outlet that posted some comparison videos shot from drones or helicopters at the same place at the same time that the widely-distributed shots were taken from the ground when the beaches opened. While these aerial shots never made the national news, they clearly showed that while there were quite a few people there, they were widely-spaced, and except for what appeared to be family groups/couples, were generally observing social distancing protocols well over 6-feet. The local JAX media outlet was trying to make the point that their locals were not as irresponsible as they were made to appear in the national media.

Beach access has become a hot button in SC as well, but we made a quick trip to our new condo on Hilton Head Island over the weekend to take some small furniture items to try to make it livable, and walked out to the beach to relax for an hour. Public beach access is closed until Friday on HHI, but private access never closed. Here is a shot of the beach outside our condo in mid-afternoon on Sunday. Everyone was being responsible and distancing.


----------



## csodjd

JIMinNC said:


> I still don't understand the aversion to localities opening up beaches. The chances of being infected while walking on the beach - or sitting on the beach in a chair - are very small in the open air and sunlight as long as people observe the same social distancing protocols they observe elsewhere.
> 
> I think a lot of the recent concern stems from some of the photos that circulated after Duval County (Jacksonville) opened their beaches. But the photos/videos that made the national news seemed to all be shot with long zoom lenses. As a photographer myself, I point out to people that zoom lenses compress perspective and make distant objects appear closer together and closer to objects in the foreground than they really are. We photographers use that feature of zoom lenses all the time to create interesting and unique images. It can also be used to make areas appear more crowded than they really are. I saw a local JAX media outlet that posted some comparison videos shot from drones or helicopters at the same place at the same time that the widely-distributed shots were taken from the ground when the beaches opened. While these aerial shots never made the national news, they clearly showed that while there were quite a few people there, they were widely-spaced, and except for what appeared to be family groups/couples, were generally observing social distancing protocols well over 6-feet. The local JAX media outlet was trying to make the point that their locals were not as irresponsible as they were made to appear in the national media.
> 
> Beach access has become a hot button in SC as well, but we made a quick trip to our new condo on Hilton Head Island over the weekend to take some small furniture items to try to make it livable, and walked out to the beach to relax for an hour. Public beach access is closed until Friday on HHI, but private access never closed. Here is a shot of the beach outside our condo in mid-afternoon on Sunday. Everyone was being responsible and distancing.
> 
> View attachment 19806


I suspect it's just raw numbers. Here in So. Cal., where it was 90+ this weekend, there were a lot of people on the beaches that were allowed to open. Little doubt some were contagious. Nobody wearing a mask. While social distancing is nice, you walk behind someone that feels a cough coming, innocently turns to cough away from people in front of them, and they cover the person walking by. It's just too difficult to enforce or police or even expect 6' distancing if there are 200,000 people on a beach.


----------



## csodjd

JIMinNC said:


> Comparing Florida and Hawaii is not really a fair comparison in my opinion. As an island, it's much easier to restrict access to Hawaii as it's all by air, and the drastic reduction of demand/flights, make that easy. Florida can be accessed by three interstate highways and many more state and federal highways, so the practicality of cutting it off from the rest of the nation is logistically unlikely and legally questionable as well. Access is so much easier in the continental U.S. Even Hawaii has had difficulty enforcing a quarantine order with the limited new arrivals, so it would be basically impossible for Florida to enforce it. They initially tried setting up checkpoints on I-95, but the resulting traffic backups made that a poor choice.
> 
> In the end, the tactics states and municipalities have taken to discourage travel rather than expressly prohibit it are probably the best approaches in a non-totalitarian state. Even in Michigan where they initially said property owners could not travel to their vacation homes, I believe I read where the real threat of legal action has forced them to back off of that more draconian order.


Sorry, but I'm not accepting the premise that the RULES in play don't play a role. Florida didn't impose the kind of protective rules that Hawaii imposed. Yes, Hawaii might have an easier time enforcing those rules. But if you don't even HAVE the rules, you are inviting the results. And it's not like South Florida is just a short drive away. It is a long drive from anywhere outside of Florida. And the Floridians say the problem was not from people driving in, it was from people flying in from NY. That's no different than flying into Hawaii from the West Coast.


----------



## bnoble

JIMinNC said:


> I think a lot of the recent concern stems from some of the photos that circulated after Duval County (Jacksonville) opened their beaches. But the photos/videos that made the national news seemed to all be shot with long zoom lenses.


Certainly possible. Here's a good example of that:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1254460167812415489


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## JIMinNC

bnoble said:


> Certainly possible. Here's a good example of that:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1254460167812415489



Perfect example of what I'm talking about. Picture on the left looks packed. Not so much on the right.

Photographers want to get their picture published. I know. I am one. A picture showing a crowded beach during the pandemic will get published because it fits the narrative and creates discussion/interest. A picture showing people playing by the rules isn't news, so it won't get published. That's a fact.


----------



## JIMinNC

csodjd said:


> Sorry, but I'm not accepting the premise that the RULES in play don't play a role. Florida didn't impose the kind of protective rules that Hawaii imposed. Yes, Hawaii might have an easier time enforcing those rules. But if you don't even HAVE the rules, you are inviting the results. And it's not like South Florida is just a short drive away. It is a long drive from anywhere outside of Florida. And the Floridians say the problem was not from people driving in, it was from people flying in from NY. That's no different than flying into Hawaii from the West Coast.



But why does everyone hate on Florida? I don't live there, so I don't have a dog in the fight, but here are the facts. Things aren't THAT bad in Florida compared to many other states in the U.S., so maybe Florida didn't NEED to impose the same kind of restrictive rules other states felt they needed to impose. In a nation of the size and diversity of the U.S., one size doesn't fit all. Florida is the third most populous state in the US, but they are middle of the pack in COVID impact. I don't want to use case counts because that depends so much on how much testing has been done, and every state is different in testing rates; but deaths attributed to COVID is probably the best common measure between states. Here are deaths per 100K residents for some key states, per CNN:

New York -- 118
New Jersey -- 73
Connecticut -- 59
Massachusetts -- 46
Louisiana -- 39
Michigan -- 36
D.C. -- 27
Rhode Island -- 23
Illinois -- 17
Maryland -- 17
Pennsylvania -- 16
Delaware -- 14
Colorado -- 13
Indiana -- 13
Washington -- 10
Georgia -- 10
Vermont -- 8
Nevada -- 7
Ohio -- 7
Virginia -- 6
*Florida -- 5*
California -- 5
Missouri -- 5
Many other states -- 2-5
Hawaii - 1
Utah -- 1
South Dakota - 1
Montana -1
Alaska -- 1
Wyoming -- 1

The narrative seems to be that Florida was late in acting and is being cavalier with the lives of their people, whereas California acted early and in a very strict manner, so they saved lives. The facts tell a different story, because the death rates in California and Florida are basically the same. When I consider that Florida's elderly population (with a median age of 41.8) puts them at an automatic disadvantage with this disease, the fact that their death rate is the same as California (with a median age of 36.1) makes me wonder why the narrative is that Florida is being irresponsible, but California took all the right steps? When you look at the data above, why aren't we questioning the response of the 10 or 12 top death-rate states in the list rather than the states near the middle or bottom? Many other southern states are being criticized heavily for trying to re-open their businesses, but except for Georgia, they are all in the low 2-5 fatalities per 100K. Why are we questioning the states with the best results and praising the states with the worst results? I don't get it. (Note -- I do agree that Georgia is being a little too aggressive in their re-opening plans based on their statistics, but Atlanta does skew their numbers, so maybe they should have taken a different approach for ATL vs. the rest of the state).

But back to the point of this thread, Hawaii is one of the states with the best numbers, but as I mentioned, they are a unique, isolated situation. They can control access in ways other states can't. I just hope we can return there in late January 2021.


----------



## Kapolei

I was in the water today at Nanakuli beach.  A few small groups of kids with parents supervising.  But really hardly anyone there.  People have taken this seriously on Oahu.  We have had a couple zero days in a row.  The virus is effectively gone on this Island (at least for now).


----------



## JIMinNC

Kapolei said:


> I was in the water today at Nanakuli beach.  A few small groups of kids with parents supervising.  But really hardly anyone there.  People have taken this seriously on Oahu.  We have had a couple zero days in a row.  The virus is effectively gone on this Island (at least for now).



I think Hawaii (and maybe Alaska) are states that can effectively combat, isolate and control this virus because of their isolation. Island nations like New Zealand and Iceland have had similar success. They key for Hawaii is, once it is truly controlled for now, how can they re-open the key economic driver of tourism while avoiding a resurgence of infections? That is going to be a challenge, but it may be easier for Hawaii than places with more uncontrolled access.


----------



## Kapolei

JIMinNC said:


> I think Hawaii (and maybe Alaska) are states that can effectively combat, isolate and control this virus because of their isolation. Island nations like New Zealand and Iceland have had similar success. They key for Hawaii is, once it is truly controlled for now, how can they re-open the key economic driver of tourism while avoiding a resurgence of infections? That is going to be a challenge, but it may be easier for Hawaii than places with more uncontrolled access.



My speculation ... Until there is a better system in place, I think people could be told to walk down stairs onto the tarmac and then loaded into a bus and taken for processing in an empty hanger.  If you check out, the bus will return you to the terminal so you can get your rental car or be picked up.  If you fail the checks, you are detained in a central quarantine where you can elect to stay for 14 days or you can choose to fly back out If you are from somewhere else.  What you need to do to pass the test and avoid quarantine would be a big question.


----------



## Tamaradarann

amy241 said:


> By testing, do you mean to check for an active Covid19 infection or to check for antibodies? I haven’t had it and don’t want it. If they allow only those with some level of immunity, it will exclude me and the vast majority of people. It would be better to check for active infections. We just bought a unit at MKO in 2019 with usage to begin in 2020 and haven’t even been able to use it. This would have been our first year of use. There seems to be a negativity to tourists that the pandemic is bringing out - maybe it was always there but more pronounced now - and it makes me sad. We had a 37 day trip involving 3 islands that was cancelled. We were to depart April 24th and would be there now if not for this crisis.



I am not sure what Jerry Gibson meant by testing, however, I would look at both types of testing.  I think that having the antibodies is great if it prevents one from getting the disease again and, therefore, be a carrier.  People with the antiboides should be able to travel.  If no antibodies, then a test for the active infection of the traveler just before the flight.  People with a negative result of the active infection should be able to travel.  Don't give up on your trip to Hawaii.  It will happen sooner or later and believe me it is worth the wait.  

As far as the negativity toward tourists I will express these thoughts:

One, there is a negativity toward tourist that the pandemic brought out since people in Hawaii as well as all around the world are scared and are trying very hard not to get the infection.  If you don't have the infection, and your family and your neighbors don't have the infection, and if people that come into your neighborhood can bring the infection, you don't want them to come.

Two, we have spent over 1000 nights in Hawaii and have always found the people and the environment very friendly, welcoming, and desirable.  We love it there.  However, we learned in school that the United States Annexed Hawaii in 1898.  Thats it.  if you learn some of the history of Hawaii, the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy, and the United States part in that overthrow you may learn why there are people in Hawaii who want to return to the Monarchy, they don't like tourists, and they don't like people from the United States.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

JIMinNC said:


> Perfect example of what I'm talking about. Picture on the left looks packed. Not so much on the right.
> 
> Photographers want to get their picture published. I know. I am one. A picture showing a crowded beach during the pandemic will get published because it fits the narrative and creates discussion/interest. A picture showing people playing by the rules isn't news, so it won't get published. That's a fact.


On another thread recently I posted a personal anecdote about an experience I had with the Sacramento Bureau Chief for one of the major network-owned television stations in San Francisco.  They rewrote the "facts" of a news story to make it a "better" story.  After the story ran I had a meeting with the bureau chief (I had been providing information on the story- part of my job), and he readily acknowledged that they had altered the story to fit their preferred narrative.

Hence not the least bit surprised when Dateline was found to have fabricated much of the information in their story about fuel tank explosions in GM Trucks.  The bigger question is how many stories were run on programs such as 60 Minutes, Dateline, and 20/20 where the fabrications were not detected or rebutted and have been accepted as gospel?





__





						Dateline NBC - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## dsmrp

My friend told me the other day of her friend's daughter and boyfriend being stuck in Honolulu. They went for a 4 day trip and have been there for about 6 weeks, as they can't get a flight out.
Fortunately they brought their work laptops with them, so have been working remotely.
I guess they found a reasonable cost place to stay.


----------



## Kapolei

dsmrp said:


> My friend told me the other day of her friend's daughter and boyfriend being stuck in Honolulu. They went for a 4 day trip and have been there for about 6 weeks, as they can't get a flight out.
> Fortunately they brought their work laptops with them, so have been working remotely.
> I guess they found a reasonable cost place to stay.



Except it has been reported that there are flights out.  So this makes no sense to me.


----------



## CO skier

JIMinNC said:


> They key for Hawaii is, once it is truly controlled for now, how can they re-open the key economic driver of tourism while avoiding a resurgence of infections? That is going to be a challenge, but it may be easier for Hawaii than places with more uncontrolled access.


That is the thing.  If Hawaii succeeds in their mitigation efforts, they cannot open until there is a Covid-19 vaccine for the Hawaii populous.  Even if the rest of the world faces reality and adopts the minimal Swedish mitigation to achieve some degree of "herd immunity," the Hawaiian residents would still be vulnerable until a vaccine is developed.

In the meantime, there are many questions about any immunity to Covid-19 and there is no certainty that a vaccine developed for this year's Covid-19 will be effective against a future Covid-19 mutation.


----------



## Kapolei

CO skier said:


> That is the thing.  If Hawaii succeeds in their mitigation efforts, they cannot open until there is a Covid-19 vaccine for the Hawaii populous.  Even if the rest of the world faces reality and adopts the minimal Swedish mitigation to achieve some degree of "herd immunity," the Hawaiian residents would still be vulnerable until a vaccine is developed.
> 
> In the meantime, there are many questions about any immunity to Covid-19 and there is no certainty that a vaccine developed for this year's Covid-19 will be effective against a future Covid-19 mutation.



‘I wonder if there is a pre-departure testing/quarantine protocol that could be developed. Something like that is currently being used for pets that are brought to Hawaii.


----------



## csodjd

Kapolei said:


> ‘I wonder if there is a pre-departure testing/quarantine protocol that could be developed. Something like that is currently being used for pets that are brought to Hawaii.


It is being done now when departing Dubai on Emerates Airlines. https://www.emirates.com/media-cent...-on-site-rapid-covid-19-tests-for-passengers/

You have your choice... get tested and receive some kind of "certification" immediately before departure, or upon arrival, and if you are not negative, 14 day quarantine.


----------



## CO skier

Kapolei said:


> ‘I wonder if there is a pre-departure testing/quarantine protocol that could be developed. Something like that is currently being used for pets that are brought to Hawaii.


Considering infected persons can "shed" the virus for days before symptoms appear, this would not be an effective protocol. Then there are the asymptomatic carriers.  No one know how long these carriers are contagious.

Hawaii could institute a 14-day pre-departure quarantine, but that would be as impractical as the current arrival 14-day quarantine.  (Where would the departing passengers be quarantined, and what if as little as one of them developed symptoms?)


----------



## BJRSanDiego

Kapolei said:


> ‘I wonder if there is a pre-departure testing/quarantine protocol that could be developed. Something like that is currently being used for pets that are brought to Hawaii.


A couple of thoughts.  I believe that there is a test that takes under 20 minutes.  So - - say, the TSA makes you show up an hour early, get a test, and they analyze the results before you get on the plane - - or as a back up you fly and they get the results while you're in the air.  If positive, you either go into quarantine or fly back to the mainland.  

Just a thought....


----------



## CO skier

BJRSanDiego said:


> If positive, you either go into quarantine or fly back to the mainland.


 "If positive, you (AND THE REST OF THE PLANE LOAD OF PASSENGERS) either go into quarantine or fly back to the mainland."

Just another example of the impracticalities.


----------



## Kapolei

CO skier said:


> Considering infected persons can "shed" the virus for days before symptoms appear, this would not be an effective protocol. Then there are the asymptomatic carriers.  No one know how long these carriers are contagious.
> 
> Hawaii could institute a 14-day pre-departure quarantine, but that would be as impractical as the current arrival 14-day quarantine.  (Where would the departing passengers be quarantined, and what if as little as one of them developed symptoms?)



 I know animals used to sit in the quarantine station for many weeks.  Then they changed the protocol to some kind of testing ahead of time.  That is for rabies.  I have very little knowledge in any of these areas. Just asking questions her.


----------



## amy241

csodjd said:


> Sorry, but I'm not accepting the premise that the RULES in play don't play a role. Florida didn't impose the kind of protective rules that Hawaii imposed. Yes, Hawaii might have an easier time enforcing those rules. But if you don't even HAVE the rules, you are inviting the results. And it's not like South Florida is just a short drive away. It is a long drive from anywhere outside of Florida. And the Floridians say the problem was not from people driving in, it was from people flying in from NY. That's no different than flying into Hawaii from the West Coast.



I live in south Florida in Palm Beach County. We are like the 5th borough of New York. When a NY lockdown seemed imminent, people fled the state for Palm Beach and Broward counties. I was at my Shell station getting gas one day and it was all NY plates filling up, including “Bette” (as her plate read) filing up her motor home she had just driven down in. I could stand on US-1 and watch the traffic and it was like NY on Parade. You would have had to live here or have been here to see the magnitude of the problem we faced. I am still seeing NY plates parked in the lot at my grocery store. Now that our season for snowbirds is ending (generally Nov. 1- May 1), I hope to see less of this. I agree with you that Florida did not enact the types of restrictions you see in Hawaii and would have benefited from doing so. Access points into the state should have been controlled more carefully. There is no enforcement of quarantining for new arrivals. Case in point - my husband’s friend flew down from NJ (out of PHL) a few days ago because they recently bought a condo in Broward. He and his wife are out sitting at the community pool and shopping in Target. It is as if the rules do not apply to them. It makes me upset because I am doing my part to help the country get beyond this and making sacrifices to do so but not everyone is complying.


----------



## JIMinNC

amy241 said:


> I live in south Florida in Palm Beach County. We are like the 5th borough of New York. When a NY lockdown seemed imminent, people fled the state for Palm Beach and Broward counties. I was at my Shell station getting gas one day and it was all NY plates filling up, including “Bette” (as her plate read) filing up her motor home she had just driven down in. I could stand on US-1 and watch the traffic and it was like NY on Parade. You would have had to live here or have been here to see the magnitude of the problem we faced. I am still seeing NY plates parked in the lot at my grocery store. Now that our season for snowbirds is ending (generally Nov. 1- May 1), I hope to see less of this. I agree with you that Florida did not enact the types of restrictions you see in Hawaii and would have benefited from doing so. Access points into the state should have been controlled more carefully. There is no enforcement of quarantining for new arrivals. Case in point - my husband’s friend flew down from NJ (out of PHL) a few days ago because they recently bought a condo in Broward. He and his wife are out sitting at the community pool and shopping in Target. It is as if the rules do not apply to them. It makes me upset because I am doing my part to help the country get beyond this and making sacrifices to do so but not everyone is complying.



But as I noted in post #335 above, you guys are actually doing pretty well in Florida controlling the impact of the virus despite what some consider a weak response, especially considering the older population base. Maybe the more limited actions taken there were appropriate for Florida. Many of the states that have received the most criticism for acting slowly or weakly have some of the lowest death rates per capita in the US. 

If someone comes to Florida from NY, but still practices social distancing in a responsible way, they really don't need to quarantine any more than someone who lives in Florida. A Florida resident who doesn't take things seriously, doesn't use good hand hygiene, and doesn't distance, is a bigger risk of being a spreader than the couple you mentioned who own the condo in Broward. If they keep to themselves at the pool, and use good sense when at Target, they should be fine. They are Florida property owners, so they should have the right to use their owned property - they pay property taxes like everyone else - like a Florida resident, they have a responsibility to act in a responsible manner.

Controlling the access points into the state was tried, but massive traffic jams resulted. In the end, the quarantine orders almost have to be somewhat voluntary, as enforcement can be very difficult, and the orders serve as more of a deterrent to people coming than an enforceable directive. If someone still comes and behaves responsibly, all should be just fine.


----------



## JIMinNC

Back to the topic of Hawaii's restrictions, I received a blast email from Timeshare Resales Hawaii this morning that had a good summary of the current orders in place:

*State Travel Restrictions*

Gov. David Ige has extended the mandatory 2 week quarantine for incoming visitors until May 31. Visitors who do not abide by these restrictions face a $5,000 fine and up to a year in prison. These rules also apply to inter-island travel for residents and visitors alike.They include: Do not use any shared facilities such as pools, have all food ordered and dropped off, and only leave for medical emergencies. 

The DOT and Department of Business, Economic Development, and Tourism launched an app on April 10. It allows travelers to fill out their personal information and place where they are staying before flying out to Hawaii. Once they arrive, they must complete their registration and check-in daily. They will be required to fill out a Department of Agriculture form on the flight and will have their temperature taken once they get off. Anyone with a high temperature will receive assistance by medical staff. Visitors will then move to the check-point station where they will show their ID and sign a form signifying they are aware of the mandatory quarantine and penalties.  

Vacation rentals are not considered an essential business and are not allowed to operate.
*Current Stay-at-Home Order*

The stay-at-home order for residents and non-essential businesses has been re-issued until May 31. Essential businesses include grocery stores, medical services, select banks, and gas stations. People must maintain 6ft apart while waiting in lines and wear a face mask.
Outdoor exercise is permitted, as long as social distancing requirements are observed. Swimming, snorkeling, paddle boarding, surfing, jogging, walking and running are activities allowed on beaches. Lounging on beaches is not. Group hiking is not allowed, unless you are sharing the same residence. People who do not want to hike solo must maintain a 20ft distance apart. 
I can appreciate Hawaii's reasons for implementing these very restrictive policies, but I can't see how they can be sustained long term until there is a vaccine. I understand an island system is a unique situation with unique risks, but it seems that to rescue the most important industry in the islands - tourism - they are going to have to find a middle ground sooner rather than later. If they don't, the pain and economic hardship their state is going to face will be unprecedented.


----------



## slip

JIMinNC said:


> Back to the topic of Hawaii's restrictions, I received a blast email from Timeshare Resales Hawaii this morning that had a good summary of the current orders in place:
> 
> *State Travel Restrictions*
> 
> Gov. David Ige has extended the mandatory 2 week quarantine for incoming visitors until May 31. Visitors who do not abide by these restrictions face a $5,000 fine and up to a year in prison. These rules also apply to inter-island travel for residents and visitors alike.They include: Do not use any shared facilities such as pools, have all food ordered and dropped off, and only leave for medical emergencies.
> The DOT and Department of Business, Economic Development, and Tourism launched an app on April 10. It allows travelers to fill out their personal information and place where they are staying before flying out to Hawaii. Once they arrive, they must complete their registration and check-in daily. They will be required to fill out a Department of Agriculture form on the flight and will have their temperature taken once they get off. Anyone with a high temperature will receive assistance by medical staff. Visitors will then move to the check-point station where they will show their ID and sign a form signifying they are aware of the mandatory quarantine and penalties.
> Vacation rentals are not considered an essential business and are not allowed to operate.
> *Current Stay-at-Home Order*
> 
> The stay-at-home order for residents and non-essential businesses has been re-issued until May 31. Essential businesses include grocery stores, medical services, select banks, and gas stations. People must maintain 6ft apart while waiting in lines and wear a face mask.
> Outdoor exercise is permitted, as long as social distancing requirements are observed. Swimming, snorkeling, paddle boarding, surfing, jogging, walking and running are activities allowed on beaches. Lounging on beaches is not. Group hiking is not allowed, unless you are sharing the same residence. People who do not want to hike solo must maintain a 20ft distance apart.
> I can appreciate Hawaii's reasons for implementing these very restrictive policies, but I can't see how they can be sustained long term until there is a vaccine. I understand an island system is a unique situation with unique risks, but it seems that to rescue the most important industry in the islands - tourism - they are going to have to find a middle ground sooner rather than later. If they don't, the pain and economic hardship their state is going to face will be unprecedented.



“Unprecedented” is an understatement. I heard estimates that unemployment here in Hawaii is 37%. There will be a lot of people leaving here if Hawaii doesn’t figure out how to open things up.


----------



## toddvb20

Sorry if this has been discussed but just found this thread and I don’t want to go through 14 pages of discussion   Are restaurants open or is it take out only?

thanks!


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

toddvb20 said:


> Sorry if this has been discussed but just found this thread and I don’t want to go through 14 pages of discussion   Are restaurants open or is it take out only?
> 
> thanks!



No onsite dining, take out only.  Personally i would not travel to Hawaii right now.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

Kapolei said:


> ‘I wonder if there is a pre-departure testing/quarantine protocol that could be developed. Something like that is currently being used for pets that are brought to Hawaii.



I think testing is a possibility but will certainly have challenges.

I believe there is still a shortage of testing capability, and may be quite a long time before there is enough capacity for  discretionary tests related to travel.  If you have people do it in advance then you need capacity all over.  If you do the testing on arrival, then other passengers have been exposed, plus you have to fly people that fail back right away.

From the vacation travel perspective,  you pay for flights, incur charges for a hotel or timeshare, then one or more people in your party show positive on a test, then you incurred expenses but no travel..  maybe that the way it has to be, but its not a great experience...


----------



## toddvb20

1Kflyerguy said:


> No onsite dining, take out only.  Personally i would not travel to Hawaii right now.


Any thoughts if the restaurants will open when the quarantine is lifted?


----------



## JIMinNC

toddvb20 said:


> Any thoughts if the restaurants will open when the quarantine is lifted?



This was posted in the Vistana forum regarding the plan in The Bahamas. While it doesn't relate to Hawaii, I could easily see Hawaii adopting something similar, with tourism being the last thing to come back.


----------



## frank808

toddvb20 said:


> Any thoughts if the restaurants will open when the quarantine is lifted?


Yes, whatever restaurants survive serving take out only for over 2 months.

Restaurants will be open for full service probably before the quarantine restriction is lifted.  A lot of small businesses can not be closed for over 2 months and survive.

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


----------



## controller1

JIMinNC said:


> This was posted in the Vistana forum regarding the plan in The Bahamas. While it doesn't relate to Hawaii, I could easily see Hawaii adopting something similar, with tourism being the last thing to come back.
> 
> View attachment 19836



Applying that to Hawaii could be a problem if tourism is relegated to Phase 5. Prior to Phase 5 there is no money to sustain Phases 2, 3 or 4. Once again it is what came first, the chicken or the egg?


----------



## BJRSanDiego

CO skier said:


> "If positive, you (AND THE REST OF THE PLANE LOAD OF PASSENGERS) either go into quarantine or fly back to the mainland."
> 
> Just another example of the impracticalities.


Good point.  

Let me amend my comment:  "A couple of thoughts. I believe that there is a test that takes under 20 minutes. So - - say, the TSA makes you show up an hour or two early, you get a test, and they analyze the results BEFORE you get on the plane.


----------



## JIMinNC

BJRSanDiego said:


> Good point.
> 
> Let me amend my comment:  "A couple of thoughts. I believe that there is a test that takes under 20 minutes. So - - say, the TSA makes you show up an hour or two early, you get a test, and they analyze the results BEFORE you get on the plane.



I may be wrong about this, but what I think I've read about those quick tests is they take a specific type of medical equipment to process and are fairly low throughput. They are not like the sophisticated mass-processing equipment at central labs that can process hundred of samples at the same time. The question would be how many of those machines would you need at an airport to process typical passenger volumes, and what kind of medical personnel would be required to process those tests. Trying to process just one planeload of 200 people in reasonable time might take at lot of the quick test machines.


----------



## Pathways

BJRSanDiego said:


> et me amend my comment: "A couple of thoughts. I believe that there is a test that takes under 20 minutes. So - - say, the TSA makes you show up an hour or two early, you get a test, and they analyze the results BEFORE you get on the plane.



4 per hour can be tested per analyzer. 200 passengers divided  by 4 is 50.  so it would take 50 analyzers to test 200 people in one hour.  Not an easy logistical problem to solve. 

A half empty plane cuts it down to 25 analyzers.  Then there's the testing cost (analyzers, test media, and a number of employees qualified to run the test)  to be added to the ticket price, that should lower the number of passengers and make the testing even quicker.


----------



## PigsDad

Pathways said:


> 4 per hour can be tested per analyzer. 200 passengers divided  by 4 is 50.  so it would take 50 analyzers to test 200 people in one hour.  Not an easy logistical problem to solve.
> 
> A half empty plane cuts it down to 25 analyzers.  Then there's the testing cost (analyzers, test media, and a number of employees qualified to run the test)  to be added to the ticket price, that should lower the number of passengers and make the testing even quicker.


And your numbers are *per plane*.  How many planes are at a typical large airport at a given time?  Yeah, not going to work.

Kurt


----------



## CO skier

BJRSanDiego said:


> Good point.
> 
> Let me amend my comment:  "A couple of thoughts. I believe that there is a test that takes under 20 minutes. So - - say, the TSA makes you show up an hour or two early, you get a test, and they analyze the results BEFORE you get on the plane.


You must not have traveled through a major airport TSA checkpoint when things were "normal" and the TSA line was 45-60 minutes long for a 30-second pass through the scanner.  A 20-minute Covid test would multiply the TSA clearing by 40 times.  40 times 45-60 minutes equals ???  -- days.


----------



## Ken555

BJRSanDiego said:


> Good point.
> 
> Let me amend my comment: "A couple of thoughts. I believe that there is a test that takes under 20 minutes. So - - say, the TSA makes you show up an hour or two early, you get a test, and they analyze the results BEFORE you get on the plane.



Then if there’s a positive, everyone in the terminal goes into quarantine... 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS

Hawaii has the highest number of people who applied for unemployment of all states, 26%. At the same time, I read that 50% of those that have applied make more money than when they were working (this is not Hawaii specific)









						The coronavirus has destroyed the job market. See which states have been hit the hardest.
					

States have taken the coronavirus hit differently. See the per-state jobless numbers and how they’ve changed.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## Tamaradarann

1Kflyerguy said:


> I think testing is a possibility but will certainly have challenges.
> 
> I believe there is still a shortage of testing capability, and may be quite a long time before there is enough capacity for  discretionary tests related to travel.  If you have people do it in advance then you need capacity all over.  If you do the testing on arrival, then other passengers have been exposed, plus you have to fly people that fail back right away.
> 
> From the vacation travel perspective,  you pay for flights, incur charges for a hotel or timeshare, then one or more people in your party show positive on a test, then you incurred expenses but no travel..  maybe that the way it has to be, but its not a great experience...



The 14 day quarantine of travellers to Hawaii is going to turn most vacationers off.  Most people travel for 14 days or less so that if they are to be quarantined for their entire trip they will say I will travel somewhere else.  Testing of travellers before or after flying may not be practical but some solution needs to be implemented to increase the number of tourists going to Hawaii to start up their econony again.  Some solution, rather than continuing the 14 day quarantine, needs to be implemented.

Doing the tests on arrival is ridiculous.   Travellers will be incuring the expenses for travel and then not being able to have an enjoyable vacation.  If one passenger tests positive, all passengers and crew on the flight will be in danger of being infected and placed in quarantine.   I can only see the testing working for travel if it is done before the flight.  Whether that is antibody testing or active virus testing.  Whether that has to be done a certain amount of time before the flight or just before the flight.  If it can't be done right before the flight then the quarentine should be done at the place where the flight is coming from so that travellers don't incur the cost of a bad trip and the flight crew is not endangered.


----------



## Tamaradarann

DannyTS said:


> Hawaii has the highest number of people who applied for unemployment of all states, 26%. At the same time, I read that 50% of those that have applied make more money than when they were working (this is not Hawaii specific)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The coronavirus has destroyed the job market. See which states have been hit the hardest.
> 
> 
> States have taken the coronavirus hit differently. See the per-state jobless numbers and how they’ve changed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com



I am not surpised that Hawaii has had the highest number of applications for unemployment.  I am surprised that it is only a slight number more than the other high states, I would have thought it would be much more since it is so dependent on tourism and tourism has just about been haulted.  My previous post emphasizes the importance in coming up with a solution to get tourism going again in Hawaii so that the economy can improve.


----------



## amy241

DannyTS said:


> Hawaii has the highest number of people who applied for unemployment of all states, 26%. At the same time, I read that 50% of those that have applied make more money than when they were working (this is not Hawaii specific)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The coronavirus has destroyed the job market. See which states have been hit the hardest.
> 
> 
> States have taken the coronavirus hit differently. See the per-state jobless numbers and how they’ve changed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com



I talked to a friend that lives on Maui and she said Central Maui is at 35% unemployed and the town of Hana is at 80% unemployed.


----------



## DannyTS

amy241 said:


> I talked to a friend that lives on Maui and she said Central Maui is at 35% unemployed and the town of Hana is at 80% unemployed.


I am sure they have more up to date numbers, the article I posted was 2 weeks old.


----------



## GregT

I read somewhere (maybe here on TUG?) the proposal that to be able to board the airplane, you had to provide a test result that had been taken in the last several days.  So if I show up at the terminal and I do not have a test result showing I was clear (72 hours ago?) then I can't board the plane.

This seems like a manageable process -- has anyone seen anything that could support this?  I have not (and I have been looking).

Best,

Greg


----------



## Fredflintstone

amy241 said:


> I talked to a friend that lives on Maui and she said Central Maui is at 35% unemployed and the town of Hana is at 80% unemployed.



Yeah, I have a friend in Honolulu and he says it’s very high there too. @slip would probably know better. He’s lucky as he works in the food industry. However, if you are in hospitality, you are in trouble and that’s where most the Hawaii jobs are. The saving grace is Military is Hawaii’s largest industry and I am sure that is sustaining things somewhat.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

GregT said:


> I read somewhere (maybe here on TUG?) the proposal that to be able to board the airplane, you had to provide a test result that had been taken in the last several days.  So if I show up at the terminal and I do not have a test result showing I was clear (72 hours ago?) then I can't board the plane.
> 
> This seems like a manageable process -- has anyone seen anything that could support this?  I have not (and I have been looking).
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


Seems to me that would completely shut down the upfront fee timeshare resale companies.  Because it would be much easier and more lucrative to sell phony test results than to sell phony timeshare purchase contracts.


----------



## PigsDad

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Seems to me that would completely shut down the upfront fee timeshare resale companies.  Because it would be much easier and more lucrative to sell phony test results than to sell phony timeshare purchase contracts.


Maybe those people who sell the phony "service animal" vests could expand to sell phony CV-19 test result certificates.  They can become the the go-to travel services companies in our new economy (what will be left of it).

Kurt


----------



## amy241

frank808 said:


> I am a resident of Oahu. If I had to self quarantine, it would have been the same as staying here at MKO. The only difference is I would have food and groceries delivered for the 14 days of quarantine instead of going out and buying it myself.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk



Is there a service in Hawaii that will deliver groceries? In Florida, we use Instacart. I was wondering if there was a similar service in Hawaii.


----------



## frank808

amy241 said:


> Is there a service in Hawaii that will deliver groceries? In Florida, we use Instacart. I was wondering if there was a similar service in Hawaii.


Instacart is available here also. I know you can Instacart from Costco and Target at least on Oahu. Probably more vendors than Costco and Target but I know those two participate with instacart for sure.

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


----------



## alohakevin

Hawaii doesn’t meet federal guidelines to lift quarantine orders by May 1
					

While Hawaii is among the states with the fewest coronavirus cases, it still does not meet the criteria to reopen May 1.




					www.staradvertiser.com


----------



## rickandcindy23

There are a lot of retired people on the islands, most especially Maui.  Kauai still doesn't like "foreigners" retiring on their island.  That is the place I get stink eye a lot, especially in Kapaa, for whatever reason.  

After whale season is over, the companies with all of those boats have very little business in good times.  They depend on whale season for most of their business for the year.  Whale watches abruptly ended mid-March.  Molokini snorkel trips this summer will not make up for the loss in income.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

8 Ways Tourism Will Change As Lockdowns Are Lifted - View from the Wing
					

I've mostly written about how coronavirus will change travel. But how will it change tourism - where we go, who will go, and what they'll do while there - at least initially, as lockdowns being to lift?




					viewfromthewing.com


----------



## Pathways

alohakevin said:


> Hawaii doesn’t meet federal guidelines to lift quarantine orders by May 1
> 
> 
> While Hawaii is among the states with the fewest coronavirus cases, it still does not meet the criteria to reopen May 1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.staradvertiser.com



I don't see how HI will ever meet the 'guidelines'  They have had so few cases, an increase of 5 or 6 might statistically be a huge jump.


----------



## csodjd

Pathways said:


> I don't see how HI will ever meet the 'guidelines'  They have had so few cases, an increase of 5 or 6 might statistically be a huge jump.


Hard to have a "downward trend" for two weeks when you are starting with only 3 or 4. However, given their near zero deaths and < 4 or so new cases day in and day out, it's pretty clear they are under control and can start opening up to local residents and business.


----------



## Kapolei

Pathways said:


> I don't see how HI will ever meet the 'guidelines'  They have had so few cases, an increase of 5 or 6 might statistically be a huge jump.



‘From the fed agency website...
‘State and local officials may need to tailor the application of these criteria to local circumstances (e.g., metropolitan areas that have suffered severe COVID outbreaks, *rural and suburban areas where outbreaks have not occurred or have been mild*.”


----------



## Kapolei

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1173091749711263
			




Lt Gov update


----------



## BJRSanDiego

Ken555 said:


> Then if there’s a positive, everyone in the terminal goes into quarantine...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Or perhaps everyone in that city or .... what the heck... the entire state?

If the person was wearing a mask (after all, they are required by law.  If they don't protect people then why are we being required to use them?), what is the chance that they infected others in the terminal?  Not zero, but probably pretty low.  Lots of zeros...


----------



## Ken555

BJRSanDiego said:


> Or perhaps everyone in that city or .... what the heck... the entire state?
> 
> If the person was wearing a mask (after all, they are required by law. If they don't protect people then why are we being required to use them?), what is the chance that they infected others in the terminal? Not zero, but probably pretty low. Lots of zeros...



My reply was after another post re testing after arrival which was suggested would mean that everyone on the plane would need to be tested and isolate, etc. 

Masks is another conversation, but I’m glad to learn you’re wearing one. I hope everyone does.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CO skier

BJRSanDiego said:


> Or perhaps everyone in that city or .... what the heck... the entire state?
> 
> If the person was wearing a mask (after all, they are required by law.  If they don't protect people then why are we being required to use them?), what is the chance that they infected others in the terminal?  Not zero, but probably pretty low.  Lots of zeros...


Good question.

What would the latest panacea "contact tracing" look like for someone who tested positive for CV-19 while surrounded by hundreds just in that moment?  Contacts who are about to board planes to who-knows-where?


----------



## burg1121

show me your papers comrad


----------



## Tamaradarann

Ken555 said:


> My reply was after another post re testing after arrival which was suggested would mean that everyone on the plane would need to be tested and isolate, etc.
> 
> Masks is another conversation, but I’m glad to learn you’re wearing one. I hope everyone does.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I have to add some humor to all the conversation about the coronavirus.  With everyone wearing masks if someone gets robbed and the police ask what did the person look like the person would respond, "I don't know but she/he was wearing a mask".


----------



## lynne

It does not look as if the 14 day quarantine will end on June 1.    We were told from a friend who is furloughed from the Auberge Mauna Lani  (currently closed) that they are not taking reservations until at least mid summer with a plan to possible open again sometime in August.  This is the latest from our local station:

By Lynn Kawano | May 8, 2020 at 5:36 PM HST - Updated May 8 at 6:41 PM
HONOLULU, Hawaii (HawaiiNewsNow) - The Hawaii Tourism Authority asked the hotels that are still open to voluntarily comply with a new initiative aimed at tracking visitors who are under mandatory 14-day quarantine.
The initiative calls for hotels to issue single-use room keys to guests when they check in.
"If they leave, then they’d have to go to the front desk and at that point the hotel can call law enforcement,” said state Sen. Donovan Dela Cruz, of the Senate Special Committee on COVID-19.
Only about 100 hotels remain open statewide.
And according to the Hawaii Tourism Authority, most have agreed to the initiative; some have already implemented the program.
The state is working to crack down on the tourists who violate the rules, starting with their arrival at the airports. There are new forms that explain the penalty for violating and there is a phone and address verification process.
Hotel managers have helped police track down dozens of people not abiding by the quarantine and social media has led law enforcement to those staying at illegal vacation rentals.

Another way businesses are helping the state monitor visitors: Rental car companies have agreed to limit service.
Lawmakers have also talked about equipping tourists with ankle monitors and the state Attorney General told the Senate Committee that her office has used the device but only after a visitor was caught breaking quarantine.
Lawmakers and public health officials fear a surge in tourists by the end of the summer and hope to have contact tracing teams trained and ready by then. “I don’t want to see the travel cases starting to creep up again because we open up to tourism without having that ability to monitor people," said state Sen. Laura Thielen.
The Department of Transportation is requesting new equipment to spot arriving passengers who may be sick.
“They want to pursue thermal screening and thermal scanning," Dela Cruz said, "They’ve identified some technology that will cost about $23 - $36 million dollars.”
Dela Cruz said federal CARES Act money can be used to fund it. Hawaii received more than $850 million total and the legislative session will reconvene Monday so lawmakers can work on budget issues.


----------



## amy241

Hotels are being asked to issue single use keys so if you leave you cannot get back in. You will have to go to the front desk to ask for a new key whereupon the hotel will call law enforcement on you.









						Most hotels agree to participate in initiative aimed at better enforcing quarantine
					

The initiative calls for hotels to issue single-use room keys to guests when they check in.




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com


----------



## amy241

Now there is discussion about photographing all arriving tourists so they can be identified and turned in if breaking quarantine. The proposal smacks of mugshots:









						Gov. David Ige considers photographing incoming Hawaii visitors to improve quarantine compliance
					

An effort to improve screening of non-residents arriving at Hawaii airports may include photographing them, under a plan that’s being explored by state officials, Gov. David Ige said during this morning’s Honolulu Star-Advertiser Facebook Live.




					www.staradvertiser.com


----------



## DeniseM

From today's online version of the Honolulu Star Advertiser, quoting Gov. Ige: 

"Ige also said during the COVID-19 Care Conversation that he expects to lift the *interisland* quarantine possibly in the next two to six weeks, depending on how the infection rate progresses."  [Interisland = between Hawaii islands.]

Based on this, I don't think we aren't going to see the lifting of restrictions on the mainland/international travel quarantine, any time soon.  There should be a new announcement witin the next 7-10 days, since the current restrictions expire in 20 days.


----------



## rickandcindy23

We are not going to go and be treated like suspicious criminals.  Maybe our trip next February will be the same paranoid bunch of people on the islands.  That is ridiculous.  Hawaii is a special place to me, but it could become my least desirable vacation.


----------



## slip

DeniseM said:


> From today's online version of the Honolulu Star Advertiser, quoting Gov. Ige:
> 
> "Ige also said during the COVID-19 Care Conversation that he expects to lift the *interisland* quarantine possibly in the next two to six weeks, depending on how the infection rate progresses."  [Interisland = between Hawaii islands.]
> 
> Based on this, I don't think we aren't going to see the lifting of restrictions on the mainland/international travel quarantine, any time soon.  There should be a new announcement witin the next 7-10 days, since the current restrictions expire in 20 days.


 
Yes, I agree with Denise on this. They are being very tight lipped. I was thinking inter-island to be opening in June and all other travel would be July at the earliest depending on what happens in between. It could be much later.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I guess a lot of people with businesses in tourism will be moving off of the island and to the mainland because they cannot get work.  Too few jobs available, if tourism closes down completely for the year.  

This is almost feeling some big joke to me.  Taking photos, forcing people to stay in a hotel room and having food delivered, not allowing rental cars.  It's not the U.S.A. and the freedom we all know and love, but they never wanted to be part of the country.  Let them have Hawaii, all of the natives and their governor, because I can stop going.  I am worried they will use this Covid as an excuse to keep us all away.  Time to sell my Maui weeks.


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## DeniseM

IMNSHO, the safety of the people of Hawaii is far more important than me missing a vacation or two.  Yes, I understand the financial hardships - the Coronavirus has caused a significant financial hardship for our family, but I'd choose quarantine over exposing my family to the Coronavirus everytime, and I think Hawaii is doing the smart thing.  YMMV


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## lynne

DeniseM said:


> IMNSHO, the safety of the people of Hawaii is far more important than me missing a vacation or two.  Yes, I understand the financial hardships - the Coronavirus has caused a significant financial hardship for our family, but I'd choose quarantine over exposing my family to the Coronavirus everytime, and I think Hawaii is doing the smart thing.  YMMV


Mahalo for supporting the state's initiative in staying safe.    Our friend who works for Mauna Lani Auberge on Hawaii island does not expect the resort to start taking reservations again until August.


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## rickandcindy23

'Our life is in danger': Unemployment hits 34% in Hawaii with no end in sight
					

Hawaii is facing one of the worst unemployment rates in the nation as coronavirus restriction have shut down the state's tourism-dependent economy.



					www.usatoday.com
				




Hawaii is suffering badly, and not because they are sick.


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## slip

No question Hawaii is suffering badly. I do think people will leave the island because of lost work. It always takes Hawaii longer to recover from economic downturns.

I believe the quarantine was the governors only way of controlling the amount of people coming to the islands.

There are plenty of people on both sides of the issue here on Hawaii and the governor is getting it from both ends. We just have to wait and see what he decides.


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## Ken555

I'd rather see Hawaii healthy than low employment and a health system in crisis. Seems we have to keep reminding people of the priorities of this pandemic...especially as our mainland numbers are increasing almost everywhere outside New York. If the numbers keep going, it's going to be a lot worse before it gets better, so if I was in Hawaii I wouldn't want anyone visiting, either.


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## amy241

rickandcindy23 said:


> I guess a lot of people with businesses in tourism will be moving off of the island and to the mainland because they cannot get work.  Too few jobs available, if tourism closes down completely for the year.
> 
> This is almost feeling some big joke to me.  Taking photos, forcing people to stay in a hotel room and having food delivered, not allowing rental cars.  It's not the U.S.A. and the freedom we all know and love, but they never wanted to be part of the country.  Let them have Hawaii, all of the natives and their governor, because I can stop going.  I am worried they will use this Covid as an excuse to keep us all away.  Time to sell my Maui weeks.



If you look at articles on their Star Advertiser publication, you can actually read the public comments posted beneath each article. I have found these comments saddening and disheartening. There appears to be a large number of residents who really don’t like tourists. I have read the comments with fascination because I was unaware how deep this went. Pick any article on the economy, reopening the state, tourism, etc., and you will find the types of comments I am referring to.


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## slip

Ken555 said:


> I'd rather see Hawaii healthy than low employment and a health system in crisis. Seems we have to keep reminding people of the priorities of this pandemic...especially as our mainland numbers are increasing almost everywhere outside New York. If the numbers keep going, it's going to be a lot worse before it gets better, so if I was in Hawaii I wouldn't want anyone visiting, either.



I have seen many threads on the virus and I don’t think reminding anyone about anything helps.

I’ll just wait until Governor Ige makes the decision and deal with either way he decides.


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## slip

amy241 said:


> If you look at articles on their Star Advertiser publication, you can actually read the public comments posted beneath each article. I have found these comments saddening and disheartening. There appears to be a large number of residents who really don’t like tourists. I have read the comments with fascination because I was unaware how deep this went. Pick any article on the economy, reopening the state, tourism, etc., and you will find the types of comments I am referring to.



Those comments have always been there pre-Covid. There is a population that feels that way to the core and always has been.


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## Ken555

slip said:


> I have seen many threads on the virus and I don’t think reminding anyone about anything helps.
> 
> I’ll just wait until Governor Ige makes the decision and deal with either way he decides.



I agree. So why are there so many posts complaining about Hawaii not allowing visitors when it's been posted so many times?


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## PigsDad

DeniseM said:


> IMNSHO, the safety of the people of Hawaii is far more important than me missing a vacation or two.  Yes, I understand the financial hardships - the Coronavirus has caused a significant financial hardship for our family, but I'd choose quarantine over exposing my family to the Coronavirus everytime, and I think Hawaii is doing the smart thing.  YMMV


I wonder if the 30+% of people that are unemployed in Hawaii feel the same way.  Sure, many are getting the enhanced unemployment benefits right now, but if Hawaii isn't going to open up tourism for several months (as it is looking now), then they will be looking at depression-like living conditions.  Tough situation all around.

Kurt


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## slip

Ken555 said:


> I agree. So why are there so many posts complaining about Hawaii not allowing visitors when it's been posted so many times?



Simply,  Because they don’t agree with you.

Governor Ige is not going to base his decision On what is posted, on either side, here on TUG.

I will wait on Governor Ige’s decision and move on from there.


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## DeniseM

slip said:


> Those comments have always been there pre-Covid. There is a population that feels that way to the core and always has been.



It's understandable: Just 127 years ago, Hawaii was conquered by the US in a coup lead by pineapple king, Stanford Dole.  At the time, a Govt. commission determined that the action was illegal, but Stanford and other wealthy landowners would not back down, and the US president did not want to send in troops.  In 1993, the US President formally apologised to native Hawaiians for the overthrow of their country.









						Overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## rickandcindy23

Ken555 said:


> I agree. So why are there so many posts complaining about Hawaii not allowing visitors when it's been posted so many times?


I am not worried about my vacation, I am worried about all of the people who are out of work and cannot pay rent/ mortgage/ or buy food.  Unemployment and underemployment have always been an issue on Oahu.  A lot of the people who are homeless at night go to jobs during the day, and they go back to their tents at night because they cannot afford to pay rent and feed their families.  The state has rich people and poor people, to the extreme on both ends.   Food banks are overwhelmed.  

I hope they welcome us back in February, but if they have a quarantine in place, we will go and abide by it.  I can stay at Hono Koa for two weeks without going anywhere.  I can whale watch from my lanai, which is only 35 feet from the water.


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## slip

DeniseM said:


> It's understandable: Just 127 years ago, Hawaii was conquered by the US in a coup lead by pineapple king, Stanford Dole.  At the time, a Govt. commission determined that the action was illegal, but Stanford and other wealthy landowners would not back down, and the US president did not want to send in troops.  In 1993, the US President formally apologised to native Hawaiians for the overthrow of their country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org



Yep, totally agree. I wasn’t judging any right or wrong. Just stating that it has always been there.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

rickandcindy23 said:


> I am not worried about my vacation, I am worried about all of the people who are out of work and cannot pay rent/ mortgage/ or buy food.  Unemployment and underemployment have always been an issue on Oahu.  A lot of the people who are homeless at night go to jobs during the day, and they go back to their tents at night because they cannot afford to pay rent and feed their families.  The state has rich people and poor people, to the extreme on both ends.   Food banks are overwhelmed.
> 
> I hope they welcome us back in February, but if they have a quarantine in place, we will go and abide by it.  I can stay at Hono Koa for two weeks without going anywhere.  I can whale watch from my lanai, which is only 35 feet from the water.


The people of Hawaii are making a choice.  The economic consequences are likely more devastating in Hawaii than almost anywhere else in the US.  Despite that, the resolve and commitment to undertake and enforce control measures is probably greater in Hawaii than almost anywhere else in the US.  That speaks to some significant difference in cultural values and norms.


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## Kevsdad

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> The people of Hawaii are making a choice.  The economic consequences are likely more devastating in Hawaii than almost anywhere else in the US.  Despite that, the resolve and commitment to undertake and enforce control measures is probably greater in Hawaii than almost anywhere else in the US.  That speaks to some significant difference in cultural values and norms.



Respectfully, I would say the elected officials are making the choice not necessarily the people. Here in California, Newsome is making a lot of choices that are not popular by “the people.” 

I don’t know if the choices made by official in Hawaii are popular or not.


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## Ken555

Kevsdad said:


> Respectfully, I would say the elected officials are making the choice not necessarily the people. Here in California, Newsome is making a lot of choices that are not popular by “the people.”



Yeah?









						Keep California stay-at-home order for as long as needed, vast majority say in new poll
					

According to a new survey, 75% of Californians say they understand and accept the state's coronavirus restrictions.




					www.latimes.com


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## cman

Ken555 said:


> Yeah?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep California stay-at-home order for as long as needed, vast majority say in new poll
> 
> 
> According to a new survey, 75% of Californians say they understand and accept the state's coronavirus restrictions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com


The article is behind a paywall. Please summarize it for us.


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## DeniseM

It's in his post:


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## BagsArePacked

Why don't you donate to the local food bank since you are so "concerned"?









						Donate Now - Hawaii Foodbank
					

Nourish Our ʻOhana You can help fill plates and hearts this holiday season Food doesn’t just provide nourishment; it is a way for people to connect. It is for comfort, celebration and spending time with our loved ones. So, when it’s missing — it leaves a hole bigger than hunger itself. As we...




					www.hawaiifoodbank.org
				








rickandcindy23 said:


> 'Our life is in danger': Unemployment hits 34% in Hawaii with no end in sight
> 
> 
> Hawaii is facing one of the worst unemployment rates in the nation as coronavirus restriction have shut down the state's tourism-dependent economy.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hawaii is suffering badly, and not because they are sick.


)







rickandcindy23 said:


> Let them have Hawaii, all of the natives and their governor, because I can stop going.  I am worried they will use this Covid as an excuse to keep us all away.  Time to sell my Maui weeks.





I'm sure the few thousand "natives" that may still be living in their homeland and haven't died off or moved away yet won't miss you or your Costco runs.  

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## Ricci

"I'm sure the few thousand "natives" that may still be living in their homeland and haven't died off or moved away yet won't miss you or your Costco runs.  "

It's ok to disagree with someone's opinion, but not be disrespectful.


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## bnoble

That's a two-way street. "Let them have Hawaii, *all of the natives* and their governor" is, to my mind, absolutely disrespectful.

More generally, the idea that my willingness to spend money somewhere for pleasure should override concerns for the health and well-being of the people who live there is a very clear reason why there can still be animosity towards tourists, in Hawaii or anywhere else. That's what tourists do, I'd rather be a traveler.


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## Kevsdad

Ken555 said:


> Yeah?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep California stay-at-home order for as long as needed, vast majority say in new poll
> 
> 
> According to a new survey, 75% of Californians say they understand and accept the state's coronavirus restrictions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com



Many/most poll are garbage (See 2016 election). Easily influenced by the way questions are asked and the halo effect.

In LA, most may be OK with keeping thing locked down until August, but not here in Sacramento where are infection and death rates are nothing like down south.


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## vacationtime1

Kevsdad said:


> Many/most poll are garbage (See 2016 election). Easily influenced by the way questions are asked and the halo effect.
> 
> In LA, most may be OK with keeping thing locked down until August, *but not here in Sacramento* where are infection and death rates are nothing like down south.



Do you have any evidence other than anecdotal evidence to support your statement?


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## DeniseM

Today, the Hawaii Gov. said Hawaii will be releasing their comprehensive plan in the next few days.


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## Ken555

Kevsdad said:


> Many/most poll are garbage (See 2016 election). Easily influenced by the way questions are asked and the halo effect.
> 
> In LA, most may be OK with keeping thing locked down until August, but not here in Sacramento where are infection and death rates are nothing like down south.



Ok, I get it. You don’t like the poll. 

Let’s recap: you posted an opinion that our Governor is acting in a manner inconsistent with the will of “the people” and forgot to include any evidence supporting your position. I replied by posting an article to one of the premier newspapers in the country showing that a recent poll indicates that 75% of the people disagree with your opinion. Then you respond by saying polls can’t be trusted. Sure thing. Next! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## DavidnRobin

Ken555 said:


> Ok, I get it. You don’t like the poll.
> 
> Let’s recap: you posted an opinion that our Governor is acting in a manner inconsistent with the will of “the people” and forgot to include any evidence supporting your position. I replied by posting an article to one of the premier newspapers in the country showing that a recent poll indicates that 75% of the people disagree with your opinion. Then you respond by saying polls can’t be trusted. Sure thing. Next!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Because us unamerican wackos that make up the vast majority of California that are staying home as not to spread the virus to our loved ones and others - versus grabbing our guns, threatening law makers and protesting that their Constitution rights are being impinged upon (that likely never actually read the Constitution, or paid attention when learning Science or Math).

Health >> Money


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fillde

DavidnRobin said:


> Because us unamerican wackos that make up the vast majority of California that are staying home as not to spread the virus to our loved ones and others - versus grabbing our guns, threatening law makers and protesting that their Constitution rights are being impinged upon (that likely never actually read the Constitution, or paid attention when learning Science or Math).
> 
> Health >> Money
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How long do you want to keep this country shut down? 100 cases? 50 cases? Maybe when we have 5 cases. I thought we wanted to flatten the curve. Mall workers out of jobs. Small business owners out of jobs. Servers out of jobs. Here's a new one Hospital workers out of jobs.
"When a patient came in recently with broken bones, the doctor couldn't turn to the orthopedic technicians. Those technicians had been laid off. So Phillips found herself putting traction on a hospital bed, a pulley system that slowly lifts and moves the broken body parts."
https://www.npr.org/2020/05/08/8524...-of-health-care-workers-face-furloughs-layoff


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## echino

Why shut down the economy to save lives from Covid-19, but not from other causes? Tens of thousands of people die in traffic accidents every year. Why not ban cars and shut down all traffic, or maybe ban at least non-essential traffic? This will save lives. Tens of thousands of lives.


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## DannyTS

it appears that the models were deeply flawed to begin with. 









						The strange bedfellows of Professor Panic - The Conservative Woman
					

The strange bedfellows of Professor Panic




					conservativewoman.co.uk
				




another interesting story today. This may happen in other states as well. 









						Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down state's stay-at-home order
					

The Wisconsin Supreme Court has overturned the state's stay-at-home order, ruling it "unlawful" and "unenforceable" in a high-profile win for the state's Republican-led Legislature.




					www.cnn.com


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## Kevsdad

DavidnRobin said:


> Because us unamerican wackos that make up the vast majority of California that are staying home as not to spread the virus to our loved ones and others - versus grabbing our guns, threatening law makers and protesting that their Constitution rights are being impinged upon (that likely never actually read the Constitution, or paid attention when learning Science or Math).
> 
> Health >> Money
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Not sure who you are addressing. As for me, I have been staying home and following the rules. I have not participated in any protests.  I stated an opinion that just because an elected official makes a decision that doesn’t mean “the people” agree.
I'm a teacher and understand science and math.
So as of yesterday, there were 2802 deaths in California at noon. Of those 44% were at nursing homes. So 1590 deaths out of 40 million people not in nursing homes. I’m not dismissing those who have been ill or lost lives, every life is precious. But the overall threat has been way overstated. 
To say we have a binary choice of health or money is in my opinion simplistic.
If you believe differently than me, I can think you are wrong with out labeling you. It’s all good. Some of my closest friends and favorite people disagree with me. They are smart and informed, we just disagree.  
I wish you and your family heath and safety in these crazy times.


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## bnoble

echino said:


> Why shut down the economy to save lives from Covid-19, but not from other causes? Tens of thousands of people die in traffic accidents every year. Why not ban cars and shut down all traffic, or maybe ban at least non-essential traffic? This will save lives. Tens of thousands of lives.


Ignoring the _reductio ad abusrdum, _you've actually made the opposite point eloquently. There are a host of evidence-based safety mechanisms, procedures, and regulations required by the government in passenger cars. Each of these either raises the price of a car, makes it more expensive to build the infrastructure (roads) that support them, or places restrictions and requirements on the people who operate them. For example, most states not only require your car to have seatbelts, but insist that you actually wear them. Many of these were quite unpopular with manufacturers, drivers, or both when mandated, but they were done just the same, because the costs were judged to be worth the benefit.

The management of COVID is quite similar in that as certain conditions are met in terms of infection rate growth/decline, testing capacity, etc., economic activity is slowly opened so that as much as possible can resume while still trying to keep the infection in check. If anything many states are relaxing _faster_ than the published Federal guidelines for reopening.

Of course, it is also worth addressing the _reductio_ bits too. There are many ways to do so, but the most salient is that unlike COVID, car accidents do not have a propensity to double every four days if left unchecked.


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## bbodb1

Is the bottom of the rabbit hole visible yet?????


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## echino

Yes, those car safety regulations reduce traffic fatalities, but still tens of thousands of people die every year in the US, and millions more are injured. Ban all non-essential traffic. This will save lives. Why not? Do you put car industry's profits and your joyrides above people's lives?


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## cman

echino said:


> Yes, those car safety regulations reduce traffic fatalities, but still tens of thousands of people die every year in the US, and millions more are injured. Ban all non-essential traffic. This will save lives. Why not? Do you put car industry's profits and your joyrides above people's lives?


What do you propose we do? Just interested to hear you proposal.


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## DannyTS

bnoble said:


> Ignoring the _reductio ad abusrdum, _you've actually made the opposite point eloquently. There are a host of evidence-based safety mechanisms, procedures, and regulations required by the government in passenger cars. Each of these either raises the price of a car, makes it more expensive to build the infrastructure (roads) that support them, or places restrictions and requirements on the people who operate them. For example, most states not only require your car to have seatbelts, but insist that you actually wear them. Many of these were quite unpopular with manufacturers, drivers, or both when mandated, but they were done just the same, because the costs were judged to be worth the benefit.
> 
> The management of COVID is quite similar in that as certain conditions are met in terms of infection rate growth/decline, testing capacity, etc., economic activity is slowly opened so that as much as possible can resume while still trying to keep the infection in check. If anything many states are relaxing _faster_ than the published Federal guidelines for reopening.
> 
> Of course, it is also worth addressing the _reductio_ bits too. There are many ways to do so, but the most salient is that unlike COVID, car accidents do not have a propensity to double every four days if left unchecked.


You have actually made the opposite point eloquently. Like in the case of cars, we should have safety measures in place (social distancing, protecting the vulnerable) and leave the rest of the population go about their business. And no, with some common sense measures the number of Covid cases do not double every four days as clearly demonstrated in Sweden. The number of new case there has continued to go down in the last 2-3 weeks.












						Sweden COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Sweden Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


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## TravelTime

I live in California, splitting time between the Bay Area and Placer County (which is more rural). I think most people think of the shelter in place as a necessary evil. I am complying. All my friends and acquaintances are complying. But none of us think this is the optional solution. We are all looking forward to better days when we can re-open. I suspect the survey results reflect the “necessary evil.”


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## DeniseM

CLOSED AGAIN.  We are not interested in your politics, boys and girls.


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