# Grupo Mayan--[2009 thread--revisited Jan. 2011]



## zimscammed

I am yet another victim of the timeshare scam perpetrated by Mayan Group/Grupo Mayan and The Grand Mayan Vacation Club at their Grand Mayan and Mayan Palace resorts.   From my perspective, the timeshare sales program at these resorts is nothing more than a criminal enterprise designed to separate foreign tourists from their money.  There is nothing these people won’t do in order to make the sale.  Then, they are trained to give you the run-around and offer you crumbs when you approach them about their unethical sales practices.  And, unfortunately, there is little recourse against these unscrupulous people, since U.S. law is of no help, the credit card companies side with the fee-generating business, and the Mexican consumer protection agency has no teeth to impose a resolution.

	My story is a familiar one.  In December, 2008, I was traveling with my extended family in Mexico and agreed to attend the sales presentation at the Grand Mayan resort in Cabo San Lucas.  At the conclusion of the presentation, I stated to the Grupo Mayan sales representative, Alex Lehan that I was not interested in purchasing a Grupo Mayan timeshare because they were for properties located only in Mexico and because they were expressly unavailable during school vacation periods.  I mentioned that the only interest I had was to travel together with my extended family, during school vacations, to high-end properties around the world, not just in Mexico.

	At that point, Brent Underdahl, another representative of Mayan Resorts/Grupo Mayan, joined us. I again repeated the reasons why I had no interest in purchasing a Mayan Group timeshare.  Mr. Underdahl explained that even though the Mayan timeshares being offered were not available during school vacation periods, they could be “exchanged” for very high-end properties located throughout the world that would be available during school vacation periods.  He bragged that the Mayan Group was associated with the best exchange companies who were connected to the finest properties in the world.  He asked me if I was familiar with and would be satisfied exchanging  Mayan Group timeshares for properties known as the “Residences” that are affiliated with the Four Seasons, the Ritz Carlton and the St. Regis Hotel chains.  I am familiar with and am satisfied with the quality of the Residences affiliated with the Four Seasons and Ritz Hotel chains, having been solicited to purchase them in the past.  

	Mr. Underdahl repeatedly assured me that the Mayan timeshares that were unavailable during school vacation periods could be readily exchanged for Four Seasons, Ritz or St. Regis Residences, on a one-to-one basis (a two bedroom Mayan suite for a two bedroom suite at Four Season, Ritz or St. Regis Residences), at any time throughout the year, including during school vacation periods.  He also told me that each Mayan Group timeshare could also be sold each year for a “guaranteed” $2500.

	Unfortunately, it was not possible for me to check the truthfulness of Mr. Underdahl’s statements while I was in Mexico because information about the exchange programs, I was told, would not be available until after I registered as a Mayan timeshare owner.  Mr. Underdahl stated that we would have to wait to exchange our Grupo Mayan timeshares for a Four Seasons or Ritz Residence timeshare for the Christmas 2009 school vacation period until we were enrolled in the HSI and Registry Collection exchange programs, which could take up to 45 days.

	When I returned to the United States and received some of the exchange program materials, I attempted to exchange the Grupo Mayan timeshares for timeshares known as Four Seasons or Ritz Residences.   It was then that we discovered that no such exchange opportunity existed and that Mr. Underdahl had lied to us.

	These statements of Mr. Underdahl, which led to my decision to purchase, were not true.  There is, in fact, neither an ability to exchange the Mayan Group timeshares for accommodations at the Four Seasons, Ritz or St. Regis Residences, on a one-to-one basis throughout the year, including during school vacation periods, nor is there any guarantee that the Mayan Group timeshares can be sold each year for a “guaranteed” $2500.  Mr. Underdahl deliberately lied to me to induce me to purchase Mayan timeshares, knowing that I had no interest in making the purchase unless I could rely on the truth of his representations.

	I have tried to engage the Grupo Mayan company in a dialogue about my experience and unhappiness. They have made a few half-hearted offers that only compound my unhappiness with their business practices.  Grupo Mayan obviously believes that making the “sale” is more important than resolving bona fide disputes with customers.  They have no interest in amicable resolution of disputes.  It is sad that I am forced to engage in an information campaign to share my horrible experience with others in an effort to discourage others from falling victim to this scam.  DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THESE PEOPLE.  They cannot be trusted.


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## aliikai2

*What ever happened to personal responsibility*

or due diligence? 

This Sales group like most other sales groups has one goal that they focus on, taking your money and making the sale. 

This happens whenever you go look at a car, a house, a TV, major appliance , or any large ticket item.

You had access to the internet while you where at the resort during your cooling off or right of rescission period after you signed the papers.

That was the time to due a search and locate sites like Tug2, and ask your questions, not now when you are simply trying to back out of a deal, because you didn't research it and it isn't what you thought you bought.


You sound like an intelligent person, one that should know that what is in writing is what is the deal, verbal doesn't count.

It is easy to listen and get swept away in the _sizzle_ of the program, but now that the smoke has cleared, you will need to figure out what to do with the steak. 

fwiw,

Greg


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## eakhat

I feel for you.  We, too, were mislead, but fortunately for us, our credit card company went to bat for us after we provided negative reviews posted about the Grand Vacation Club.  We were also able to provide details of how we challenged the purchase within the "cooling off" period, which the timeshare rep tried to say didn't exist in Mexico.

Good luck.  I really do feel your pain.

Elaine


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## rowdoc

*Grand Mayan timeshare fraud Cabo San Lucas*

I have been scammed by the Grand Mayan Cabo San Lucas in exactly the same way. I have hired Mexican lawyers who do 100% timeshare scams. I have a picture of my con man and his name.

Have you got your money back yet?


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## zimscammed

I wish to retract my previous posting.  My complaint has been satisfactorily resolved.


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## pjrose

*Please keep it posted to help others*



zimscammed said:


> I wish to retract my previous posting.  My complaint has been satisfactorily resolved.



You are not the only one who has posted complaints such as this and then retracted (possibly as a condition of the resolution?).   I believe posts such as this should stay up because they could be helpful to others.


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## Monica

I believe that it all starts w/ one's own personal responsibility.  How could anyone part w/ the amount of their hard-eared $ these salesman want from you w/o doing your due dligience first?

Amazing.


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## Elsie Mae

I feel there is no need to criticize the original poster for making a mistake.  The purpose of this forum is to be supportive and helpful.  If we criticize people for sharing their experiences, then we will get less information posted. 
I thank the original poster for sharing their experience.


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## pjrose

Elsie Mae said:


> I feel there is no need to criticize the original poster for making a mistake.  The purpose of this forum is to be supportive and helpful.  If we criticize people for sharing their experiences, then we will get less information posted.
> I thank the original poster for sharing their experience.




I completely agree.

It's harder to do the research when you're there, enticed by the beauty of the resort, the incentives, and the promises, and not familiar with TS sales tactics.


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## rowdoc

I was taken in same way. I was in vacation mode. I had no computer with me. I trusted them. I was told there was no rescission period in Mexico. Some facts cannot be verified until you try to get an exchange. Yes, I trust people and that is wrong. I must learn the obvious lesson - *to never trust people again*.


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## JoeMid

rowdoc said:


> * never trust people again*.


A little harsh, maybe trust but question?


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## stopfraud

*Grand Mayan Timeshare Fraud*

Originally Posted by zimscammed  
I wish to retract my previous posting. My complaint has been satisfactorily resolved.



pjrose said:


> You are not the only one who has posted complaints such as this and then retracted (possibly as a condition of the resolution?).   I believe posts such as this should stay up because they could be helpful to others.



Yes, it might be very helpful for others if zimscammed disclosed the “satisfactory resolution.” Was his contract cancelled? I very much doubt that. Lies and deceit are the very foundations of Grupo Mayan’s sales techniques – and they would not admit to that. (Why should they, when they can get away with it?) Most likely they lowered the price by a few thousand dollars, or gave him a bonus week or something to make him feel better – provided he keeps the terms secret.

But at least he came back and told us that his complaint was resolved. Case closed. Frankly, I am tired of these people who get ripped off by Grupo Mayan, then come crying to the various forums and ask for help. We give them advice (which might be helpful, or might not) and then we never hear from them again. They will just not want to help others by sharing their experience. I begin to feel they deserve what they got.


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## pittle

stopfraud said:


> Lies and deceit are the very foundations of Grupo Mayan’s sales techniques – and they would not admit to that. (Why should they, when they can get away with it?)
> 
> Frankly, I am tired of these people who get ripped off by Grupo Mayan, then come crying to the various forums and ask for help. We give them advice (which might be helpful, or might not) and then we never hear from them again. They will just not want to help others by sharing their experience. I begin to feel they deserve what they got.



A lot of us have purchased from Grupo Mayan and are happy with our purchase.  The Grupo Mayan Resorts are all really nice and we have wonderful vacations there.  Yes - we know *we paid too much, but that is the case for any timeshare purchased from a developer* - they have lots of overhead and charge accordingly. We learned our lesson and then started buying re-sale units.  We now own 4 MP weeks and 2 GM weeks. The re-sales kind of balance out the original purchase price.  We actually sold other timeshares to buy Grupo Mayan ones.  (At least the other ones were re-sale and we got our money back from those.) *Most of us do not learn about resales until after the fact.*  We get wowed with the glitz and glamour when we take the presentation and let our emotions take over.  

*Grupo Mayan is not the only one* that tells you all about how you can rent and exchange to anywhere in the world.  None tell you that the week you buy will not "pull" that unit in Hawaii, Manhattan or San Fancisco that you really want to go to.  They all start out with the "How much do you normally spend per night for a hotel room" speil and say, "wouldn't you like to stay in a multi-room space?"  That is where they start with how you can rent your week for the prices for a hotel suite to "hook you".  

While we have been timesharing since 1991, we still got taken in last year.  We bought at two places that were under construction and both are now running out of money and it may be a while before they are completed.  We may or may not have a timeshare at one of the two - we will just have to wait and see.  We went in with our eyes wide open and may lose our money.  At least we did get to use our unit at one of the two this past summer, but many people will not.  We bought fixed time for that one in a building that was nearly complete when we purchased. 

At least the Grupo Mayan does eventually get their buildings done.  It sometimes takes a while.


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## usmcseawolf

*Grand Mayan/Grupo Mayan Fraud*

My wife & I would advise anyone considering buying a timeshare from Grupo Mayan/Grand Mayan to never do business with these crooks.  They are nothing but a criminal enterprise and will lie to you about everything in order to get you to purchase.
In Dec 2007 we got conned into attending a timeshare sales presentation at the Grand Mayan in Nuevo Vallarta, near Puerto Vallarta.  My wife has previously owned a Krystal Vallarta timeshare and we had been a little unhappy about the condition of the Krystal property, which seemed to be going downhill.
After 4 hours in which they pretty much kept sweetening the pot they finally wore us down to the point that we purchased, mainly just to get out of the place.
Part of their lying to us involved the alledged purchase of our old timeshare at the Krystal Vallarta, giving us a supposed $9600 in equity.  They also assured us we could "rent" out our new timeshare through a rental company based out of Texas.  We did call the rental company, who assured us there would be no problem renting out the Grand Mayan timeshare & requested a $370 fee to put us into thier data base.  That was the last we heard from them & they never rented out our timeshare even once.
The Grand Mayan sales people told us we had to use a company named "Holiday Timeshare", based out of Seattle, WA to handle the transer of the Krystal property.  Over a period of several months & after paying  $1200, which was supposedly going to the Krystal resort as a buyout penalty, and $500 for 2008 maintenance fees, we received an email stating we were no longer the owners, nor responsible for any additional payments to the Krystal resort.  We were told to forward any future bills from the Krystal to Holiday Timeshare and they would be taken care of.
We didn't hear anything until Dec 2010, when we received a letter from "Concord" collection agency, advising us that we owed $1500  in back maintenance fees for 09,10,11.  Turns out, the Krystal resort knows nothing about the alledged purchase and still considers my wife the owner.  Numerous attempts to contact the Holiday transfer company have met with negative results.
We have contacted an attorney in PV and exploring whether to file a fraud suit against Grupo Mayan.  We also are filing a complaint with the Mexican government agency called Perfeco, which most likely will be a waste of time.  We are exploring a complaint with our Credit Card company, since all payments have been made through a credit card.  It's highly unlikely that we will have any success.  There is alot more to the story, but time and space restraints keep me from  explaining all the details.
We are returning to the Neuvo Vallarta timeshare in Feb and will be getting in their face over their misrepresentations and outright lying.  I'd like to stand outside thier timeshare sales area & scream at people to get out while they can, but probably would end up in jail.
After our distasteful experience, I would highly recommend that no one purchase any timeshare in Mexico and particulary not from Grupo Mayan.  With luck, we can keep a few people from being defrauded like we were.  Do not believe a word they tell you.


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## pjrose

Sorry to hear about your negative experience.  You are not alone.  

Holiday Group went out of business last year.  They were a reputable company, but just aren't around anymore.

Please know that there ARE developers in Mexico who do not make promises that aren't kept, and who do not use high pressure sales.

I wish you success, but three years after purchase you probably won't get far.  

No matter what, please do NOT fall for the tactics of any companies that offer to take the timeshare off your hands and sell it for you.  They will ask you for an upfront fee of several hundred dollars or more, and then you will never hear from them.


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## pianodinosaur

pittle said:


> A lot of us have purchased from Grupo Mayan and are happy with our purchase.  The Grupo Mayan Resorts are all really nice and we have wonderful vacations there.  Yes - we know *we paid too much, but that is the case for any timeshare purchased from a developer* - they have lots of overhead and charge accordingly. We learned our lesson and then started buying re-sale units.  We now own 4 MP weeks and 2 GM weeks. The re-sales kind of balance out the original purchase price.  We actually sold other timeshares to buy Grupo Mayan ones.  (At least the other ones were re-sale and we got our money back from those.) *Most of us do not learn about resales until after the fact.*  We get wowed with the glitz and glamour when we take the presentation and let our emotions take over.
> 
> *Grupo Mayan is not the only one* that tells you all about how you can rent and exchange to anywhere in the world.  None tell you that the week you buy will not "pull" that unit in Hawaii, Manhattan or San Fancisco that you really want to go to.  They all start out with the "How much do you normally spend per night for a hotel room" speil and say, "wouldn't you like to stay in a multi-room space?"  That is where they start with how you can rent your week for the prices for a hotel suite to "hook you".
> 
> While we have been timesharing since 1991, we still got taken in last year.  We bought at two places that were under construction and both are now running out of money and it may be a while before they are completed.  We may or may not have a timeshare at one of the two - we will just have to wait and see.  We went in with our eyes wide open and may lose our money.  At least we did get to use our unit at one of the two this past summer, but many people will not.  We bought fixed time for that one in a building that was nearly complete when we purchased.
> 
> At least the Grupo Mayan does eventually get their buildings done.  It sometimes takes a while.



We have had excellent vacations while staying at the Grand Mayans. They do have a high pressure sales presentation and I will not attend one again.  However, I would love to exchange back into a Grand Mayan in the near future.


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## Tropical lady

Usmcseawolf,
I'm sure that you have everything together for Feb, but take a copy of your contract.  Your sales person may not even be there anymore and that is what they are...."sales"  Take your issues to Member Services, the legal department where you signed all the papers.  They do negotiate and make sure what you bought is in the contract. One time we had a problem and they were very helpful.  Is your trade in reflected in the contract or an addendum?
Our friends had a trade in and went through Holiday and had no problems.  But other posts have confirmed that they did go out of business.
I question why Krystal waited 3 years to go to a collection agency without trying to contact you some time during that time frame about your MF's?  I would take a copy of the email you received.  Also include copies of the payments you made, ie transfer fee and 2008 MF.  Now it might be difficult determining if either Krystal or Holiday was at fault.
Good luck and let us know how the issue was resolved.


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## ondeadlin

That's a terrible story, but unfortunately not very surprising to me given what one reads about Grand Mayan sales tactics.


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## mossimo

*grand mayan scam*

Please keep me posted as I am in the same boat.  I have been a GM owner for 3 years.  Last year I up-graded to a grand luxxe villa.  My understanding was that GM would trade for 2 of my other timeshares.  I was told to pay Travel Around the World for the deed transfer.  I waited and waited to hear from TAW.  Just went to Cabo and spoke with the GM about the fact that I have not heard a word nor can I reach anyone from TAW.  GM informed me that they went out of business.  When was anyone going to inform me?  They said that I was not the only person with this problem but did not offer any solution.  I am out $1050 plus I still owe the maintenance fees for my other two timeshares that I thought I was rid of.  Why is it that GM keeps working with crooks? (I too was taken by the rental scam- paid my fees to have someone rent my timeshares and never heard from them again- a company suggested by GM) The sad part is that we have to encourage more sales or our investments in the GM scheme will go under and then we will really be in the creek.  Any advice would be much appreciated.


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## Monica

rowdoc said:


> I have been scammed by the Grand Mayan Cabo San Lucas in exactly the same way. I have hired Mexican lawyers who do 100% timeshare scams. I have a picture of my con man and his name.
> 
> Have you got your money back yet?



In your picture, do you have a picture of the gun that he held on you?  Isn't that the reason you signed w/o doing due diligence?  Why else would you sign?

Don't use the excuse you didn't have a computer, either.  You could have used one after you said "NO" and just walked out.  I'm with the other poster that stated somewhere along the line, personal responsibility has to enter in. 

Timeshare is one of the biggest impulse purchases a person will make in their life.


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## Grand Vic

Usmcseawolf,

I thought I was reading my own story as I was reading yours about the Krystal/Grand Mayan - right down to the dates!  We forwarded copies of all of our receipts, e-mails, copies of checks etc. to Concord as proof of everything that transpired between us and Holiday, and have not heard back from them.  As required by Holiday, we sent all of our original Krystal documents to them to do the transfer, plus we paid the transfer fee, so we assumed that it had taken place.  I was surprised that the Krystal waited so long to contact us as well.  I have tried to contact the Krystal and have had no success.


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## mossimo

*grand mayan fraud*

Okay, so a lot of us are in the same boat.  Does anyone have any solutions?  I too have a Mexican lawyer but she does not specialize in timeshare fraud and I am hesitant to put more money into this situation.  I am currently working with my credit card company to see if they will compensate me for my TAW transfer fees since "service was not rendered" and I have paid my maintenance fees for another year for my other timeshare resorts.  I'm all ears!  Thanks for the support and advice!


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## DeniseM

mossimo said:


> Okay, so a lot of us are in the same boat.  Does anyone have any solutions?  I too have a Mexican lawyer but she does not specialize in timeshare fraud and I am hesitant to put more money into this situation.  I am currently working with my credit card company to see if they will compensate me for my TAW transfer fees since "service was not rendered" and I have paid my maintenance fees for another year for my other timeshare resorts.  I'm all ears!  Thanks for the support and advice!



Have you contacted Profeco?  The Mexican consumer agency.  I understand that they are slow, but Legit.  Here is  a brochure from Profeco,


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## CatLovers

aliikai2 said:


> Whatever happened to personal responsibility or due diligence?





aliikai2 said:


> That was the time to due a search and locate sites like Tug2, and ask your questions, not now when you are simply trying to back out of a deal, because you didn't research it and it isn't what you thought you bought.





Monica said:


> In your picture, do you have a picture of the gun that he held on you? Isn't that the reason you signed w/o doing due diligence? Why else would you sign?  Don't use the excuse you didn't have a computer, either. You could have used one after you said "NO" and just walked out.



Ouch!  Clearly the OP has posted here because s/he is frustrated over a poor decision and is seeking constructive advice.  Is it really necessary to belittle people because they exercised bad judgment and made a poor choice?  Other than prove how smart you are, does it really serve any purpose?  Perhaps we can be more respectful of other people's experiences and opinions without resorting to personal attacks.

_Part of this post has been removed._


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## Grupo Mayan

*To All Bloggers Looking for Help,*

We invite you all to contact us regarding your experience with us, as part of our daily quest for improvement and high regard for customer satisfaction. 

We assure you that each situation will be analized to be able to resolve any pending issues you may have with us. 

We hope to continue this dialogue by having you all contact us directly at 1 (800) 292-9446 or by email at: grupomayanblog@grupovidanta.com.

We are a team of devoted Customer Care workers and we take pride in hosting at our resorts thousands of happy clients that can safely attest to our dedication to our members and guests. We would like you all to be satisfied members as well.

Sincerely, 
Karen Rose
Customer Support Representative.


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## Karen G

CatLovers said:


> Ouch!  Clearly the OP has posted here because s/he is frustrated over a poor decision and is seeking constructive advice.



Just FYI, the OP on this thread started it in 2009 and it was brought to life again a few days ago by another dissatisfied Grupo Mayan customer.



Grupo Mayan said:


> We invite you all to contact us regarding your experience with us, as part of our daily quest for improvement and high regard for customer satisfaction.


I hope all the folks who have an issue with Grupo Mayan will contact them at the phone number or email in the above post. It would be quite refreshing to hear of some  of these issues being resolved.


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## aliikai2

*Thanks Rose.*

Great to see a representative of the Grupo Mayan here taking a proactive stance to resolve problems and misunderstanding. A 1st class act. Wish more resort groups would become involved .

jmho,

Greg



Grupo Mayan said:


> We invite you all to contact us regarding your experience with us, as part of our daily quest for improvement and high regard for customer satisfaction.
> 
> We assure you that each situation will be analized to be able to resolve any pending issues you may have with us.
> 
> We hope to continue this dialogue by having you all contact us directly at 1 (800) 292-9446 or by email at: grupomayanblog@grupovidanta.com.
> 
> We are a team of devoted Customer Care workers and we take pride in hosting at our resorts thousands of happy clients that can safely attest to our dedication to our members and guests. We would like you all to be satisfied members as well.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Karen Rose
> Customer Support Representative.


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## CatLovers

aliikai2 said:


> Great to see a representative of the Grupo Mayan here taking a proactive stance to resolve problems and misunderstanding. *A 1st class act.* Wish more resort groups would become involved .



I have to chuckle when I see the words "first class act" used to describe Grupo Mayan :hysterical:. Over the last couple of weeks I've heard them described by a lot of adjectives, but none of them were anywhere near "first class"!  The words I'm hearing are diametrically opposite, and unfortunately none are complimentary.  Comments from a few people while we visited there just earlier this month, and a whole slew of email comments from others later suggest to me that these guys aggravate as many people as they satisfy.  Too bad their post-visit customer service staff are left to try and clean up the messes that the in-house staff (sales and other) create.


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## mikenk

Chuckle all you want, but the Mayan resorts are first class resorts. Your problem (and others) is you can't separate the initial sales process from the resort operations.

Indeed, they are more aggressive in the typical timeshare sales process that infuriate many. Unfortunately, many can't see past that point. To most owners, even most who know they paid too much, that is just a bump in the road.

As a resort, they are first class for the following reasons:
- Great attentive staff always - twice a day maid service - almost instant response on any needs.
- great facilities for swimming, golf, lounging, partying
- Impeccable grounds - always being improved and always clean.
- Always renovating and updating facilities
- Absolutely honor what is in the owners contract; member services are easy to work with on questions / issues
- Full range of restaurant services from modest price to high end.
- Outstanding and reasonably priced room service: fast, everything at right temp, set up for you, and removed quickly.
- Range of options on resort levels / costs from excellent (Mayan Palace) to luxury (Grand Luxxe).

Many have the opinion that any high pressure sales resort (Grupo Mayan certainly qualifies) can't possibly be first class. That is their prerogative and i have no problem with that perspective. However, for many of us, that is just not the only criteria to judge resorts, if it should be a criteria at all.

Mike


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## CatLovers

mikenk said:


> Chuckle all you want, but the Mayan resorts are first class resorts. Your problem (and others) is you can't separate the initial sales process from the resort operations.



Can't speak definitively for others  , but fortunately I do have the ability to separate the sales process from the resort operations.  And I happen to agree with you Mike that the sales process is just one criteria that should be used to judge a resort.  Nevertheless, my overall assessment that the Grand Mayan does not meet the criteria for a "first-class" resort still stands.  I have only one visit to use as a data point (Grand Mayan Nuevo Vallarta), but the slew of emails I have received since I posted a (rather lengthy) review on this resort suggests to me that there are a whole bunch of other people that have thoughtfully separated "sales" from "operations" and come to the same conclusion.  The units themselves are above-average, I don't think anyone can deny that, but the resort doesn't make the cut in many other areas of operations.  I think at the end of the day, this chain is geared towards a very specific niche of people and those people love it!  For others (such as us), these resorts are too big, overcrowded, overpriced, and so not Mexico.  Unfortunately, we did not experience the exceptional customer service that you allude to either.  Our maid service was inconsistent, responses to our questions (non-sales related) were not forthcoming, and the overcrowding and large-scale "saving" of pool and beach chairs meant that finding a quiet space to enjoy the facilities was almost impossible.  The constant nickel-and-diming and some questionable operational practices were slight irritants that just contributed to the overall negative experience.

We have been fortunate enough to experience true five-star service at some of the best resorts in the world, and our visit to the GMNV didn't come close.

I used the analogy on another occasion of the Grand Mayan being like a cruise ship.  Everything you could possibly need is in one place (for a price) and if you just want to go to Mexico, kick back and enjoy the weather, and still feel like you are still in the U.S. or Canada , then this is perfect for you.  It certainly sounds like you are fan of these resorts and I have no argument with you; in fact I think it's great that you are enjoying your timeshare holidays.  I just get concerned when the "fans" paint a picture that suggests that the only problem with the Grupo Mayan chain is their aggressive sales practices.  It's more than that, and I think it's important that in the spirit of sharing information (which is what we do at TUG), people reading realize that this chain of resorts is not a good fit for everyone.  If this is not the experience that one wants, then I'd like people to know that there are so many great (we've stayed at several of them) timeshare options in Mexico.


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## mikenk

My data points are much more than yours and the number of people I talk with are much more than yours. 

Certainly, all people are looking for different things; the Mayan resorts are typically huge with lots of amenities. If that is not your cup of tea, then fine, but I will stand by all the points above. Great 5 star hotels in the world are typically large with lots of amenities to keep you on the site.

I don't doubt you had a bad experience; I have had bad experiences in 5 star hotels - it happens, but I will maintain you need more than a single data point to make general conclusions.

Mike


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## CatLovers

mikenk said:


> My data points are much more than yours


True



mikenk said:


> and the number of people I talk with are much more than yours.


Not necessarily.  I seem to be getting more on a daily basis .  If there's one thing I've realized, it's that the words "Grupo Mayan" stir up a lot of emotion, both positive and negative!


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## mikenk

CatLovers said:


> Not necessarily.  I seem to be getting more on a daily basis .  If there's one thing I've realized, it's that the words "Grupo Mayan" stir up a lot of emotion, both positive and negative!



On every trip, I make a point to talk with people, lots of people, face to face - not via TUG based email threads. Almost universally, they love the resorts. Amazingly, most know and don't really care that they overpaid. They also don't know about TUG and frankly couldn't care less - having too much fun and water over the dam.

Now looking at the value of ownership for a minute - not the sales process. If you bought the right unit on resale or if you negotiated well with an upgrade, you aren't faced with yearly MF's unless you use. That alone fundamentally removes the reason why so many timesharers are doing anything (even paying) to get out. I know you despised the sales process - but many of us have no problem as we went in prepared and we have great ownership privileges as a result. 

Our children love that we bought this package - absolutely no future liability on their part but all the benefits. Not many timeshare systems can say that.

That is just a few things to think about; I try to make it a point never to bash something publicly unless i really understand. This board is absolutely rampant with that type of thinking.

Mike


----------



## aliikai2

*Mike, you are wasting your time*

Since she returned from her trip she has commented on everything Grupo Mayan, on this board and any place else they have something posted. 

She really doesn't like the mega resorts, she didn't like the location, " *It is like being in Florida*" and she has made it a point to continue to harangue the group with her opinion on the Grupo Mayan. She should talk to the Marriott or Starwood crowd about pool chairs and the No Cooler at the pool rules 

 Just click on her screen name and look over her last 25 or so posts. 

Catlovers thinks the Shell resorts are 5*, so as she said to each their own opinion. :ignore: 

A Shell resort like the Kauai Beach resort( the old Kauai Beachboy)  is a remodeled motel, with no elevators. Little to any resort activities, 1 overpriced on site restaurant, and a tiny pool. 

She raves about Shell.  

Just so everyone here sharing ideas understands where Catlovers is coming from.

We are off to enjoy the Grand Mayan in about 6 weeks, can't hardly wait. 
fwiw, 

Greg


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## Karen G

mikenk said:


> I try to make it a point never to bash something publicly unless i really understand. This board is absolutely rampant with that type of thinking.


 When someone submits a review or a post about his/her experience at any given resort, that is their subjective opinion and I'm sure he/she "understands" his/her own experience quite well.  Each poster has the same right to express his/her opinion or experience as the next poster. It can be done politely without bashing each other or commenting that one's opinion is somehow superior to someone else's just because it's different.

I totally "get" that many Grupo Mayan owners love their resorts, as do many Royals owners, as do many Pueblo Bonito owners, or any other resort.  When our resorts are criticized, that doesn't diminish our enjoyment or our experiences. If other people post about negative experiences at our home resorts,  we can politely reply that we're sorry and move on. There's no reason to become defensive or even offensive about it--different strokes for different folks.


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## mikenk

Karen G said:


> When someone submits a review or a post about his/her experience at any given resort, that is their subjective opinion and I'm sure he/she "understands" his/her own experience quite well.  Each poster has the same right to express his/her opinion or experience as the next poster. It can be done politely without bashing each other or commenting that one's opinion is somehow superior to someone else's just because it's different.
> 
> I totally "get" that many Grupo Mayan owners love their resorts, as do many Royals owners, as do many Pueblo Bonito owners, or any other resort.  When our resorts are criticized, that doesn't diminish our enjoyment or our experiences. If other people post about negative experiences at our home resorts,  we can politely reply that we're sorry and move on. There's no reason to become defensive or even offensive about it--different strokes for different folks.



Karen,

I fully understand that right and have no problem with posters giving their personal experience and opinion. I have a problem when they choose to generalize their opinion as being the gospel for all, make statements that I know from experience is incorrect or misleading, or make an arrogant post against someone else's opinion. 

I would never even think about going to one of those other resorts, have one bad experience, make assumptions for all, and trash the resort just because I am mad. 

Mike


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## Karen G

mikenk said:


> I have a problem when they choose to generalize their opinion as being the gospel for all, make statements that I know from experience is incorrect or misleading, or make an arrogant post against someone else's opinion.


We'll just have to agree to disagree on these points:
1.  I don't recall anyone saying their opinion was "gospel for all."
2.  Again, your "experience" is just that--it's YOUR experience, not someone else's experience with whom you disagree.
3. Can you tell me which post in just this particular thread that you consider to be an "arrogant" post against someone else's opinion? Please stick to the posts that were made this month, not two years ago.


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## ondeadlin

Karen G said:


> When someone submits a review or a post about his/her experience at any given resort, that is their subjective opinion and I'm sure he/she "understands" his/her own experience quite well.  Each poster has the same right to express his/her opinion or experience as the next poster. It can be done politely without bashing each other or commenting that one's opinion is somehow superior to someone else's just because it's different.
> 
> I totally "get" that many Grupo Mayan owners love their resorts, as do many Royals owners, as do many Pueblo Bonito owners, or any other resort.  When our resorts are criticized, that doesn't diminish our enjoyment or our experiences. If other people post about negative experiences at our home resorts,  we can politely reply that we're sorry and move on. There's no reason to become defensive or even offensive about it--different strokes for different folks.



GREAT post.


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## CatLovers

*Wow! Take it easy guys, not trying to start WW III*

Greg (*aliikai2*), I am at a loss to understand why my posts are making  you so defensive, to the extent that you have resorted to personal attacks.  I get that you love the Grupo Mayan resorts; I think that's awesome, particularly if you paid some serious coin for it.  In fact, I wish you nothing but years of enjoyment from your purchase.  But my experience has been different.  So different AND so disappointing that I have felt it necessary to help others (who like to vacation the way we do) from falling into the same trap.  The Grand Mayan NV came with a lot of high expectations, probably because of what I've heard from owners such as you who love your purchase.  But ... for us, it fell miles short of those expectations.  Using the words "petty", "diatribe" and "harangue" (in this and another thread) to try and diminish the value of my experience serves no purpose.  This was _*my*_ experience, I was there, you weren't, so you're in no position to comment on it.  You even went as far as to use the "doh" emoticon  in one of your other posts to imply that my input was stupid.  Really?  That's all you've got to fall back on because my opinion doesn't match yours?

C'mon, one of the great things about a bulletin board such as TUG is that it allows contrarian viewpoints and that we are able to (usually) have cerebral discussions without resorting to personal attacks.  I mean we're talking about a resort here, not religion or politics or a life-or-death issue.  Do you really need to trash me and my input to feel like you've done a good day's worth of work?  My opinion differs drastically from yours, but if you go back and read what I have written in this and other threads, you will see that I have been respectful of your perspective, and your disrespect towards me is inappropriate and unwarranted.  My beef is with the resort and their management, not with you.



mikenk said:


> On every trip, I make a point to talk with people, lots of people, face to face - not via TUG based email threads. Almost universally, they love the resorts. Amazingly, most know and don't really care that they overpaid. They also don't know about TUG and frankly couldn't care less


Mike (*mikenk*), just for the record, the "slew" of emails that I have received didn't come as a result of my TUG posting.  I posted on another site that I participate in, and I was deluged with emails from there -- people who identified with our negative experience and just felt the need to drop me a note!  As well, like you, I make it a point to talk to lots of people, face-to-face, and while at the resort itself, I got lots of feedback similar to mine from people who were just as frustrated with their experience.  I tell you this not to take away from your positive experiences but just to demonstrate that I may have a few more "data points" than you realize.  

Bottom line, guys, ease up!   I can see that there are two camps when it comes to Grupo Mayan - those who love it and those who most certainly do not.  Perhaps you could accept that as well?  I'm not trying to change your mind about the Grupo Mayan resorts and I have no quarrel with your satisfaction with their product.  My messages are directed at those who may read these threads in the future while trying to make a decision as to whether these resorts are right for them or not.


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## mikenk

Karen G said:


> We'll just have to agree to disagree on these points:
> 
> 3. Can you tell me which post in just this particular thread that you consider to be an "arrogant" post against someone else's opinion? Please stick to the posts that were made this month, not two years ago.



i consider post #28 such a post. It is a condescending post from someone who in reality knows very little about the subject -  the cute little icons thrown in for effect. I'm sorry but that kind of rhetoric does not sit well with me.

Mike


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## aliikai2

*And if you had  merely  posted a review I would have had no issue*

There are nothing personal about my posts, *just my opinion* which as per your own words I am entitled to post and, when you take it upon yourself to post your opinion that the Grupo Mayan are thieves, money grubbers, etc you are more than merely stating
your experiences, you have deemed it necessary to extract retribution for you experience by your slanted  posts.     



> *Unfortunately just another money-grab from the Grupo Mayan folks*. IMO, *Grupo Mayan is one of the most unethical companies around *(and that's saying a lot given what is known about timeshare salespeople in general). Our recent week at the Grand Mayan Nuevo Vallarta was accompanied by *much evidence of lying, cheating and stealing*. My "favourite" is their seemingly very lucrative extra income stream from playing with exchange rates (for more info on this, see Post #4 in this thread: http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138295).




_Just about every resort charges a premium on exchange. At least every Mexican resort I have been to does. The PB Emerald bay in Summer of 2009 was only offering 10% when the banks where 13%, and they charged $340 pesos for a 1/2 liter bottle of water. 40 pesos for 15 minutes of internet time, etc. _



> Part of the problem with Grupo Mayan is that they are a Mexican company and so *victims* ... er, I mean purchasers ... are not as well protected by consumer law as they are in the U.S. and Canada[/COLOR]



in any thread where the resorts name shows up, this one above was in response to a June 2010 post??????  



> I have to chuckle when I see the words "first class act" used to describe Grupo Mayan . Over the last couple of weeks I've heard them described by a lot of adjectives, but none of them were anywhere near "first class"! The words I'm hearing are diametrically opposite, and unfortunately *none are complimentary*. Comments from a few people while we visited there just earlier this month, and a whole slew of email comments from others later suggest to me that these guys aggravate as many people as they satisfy. Too bad their post-visit customer service staff are left to try and clean up the messes that the in-house staff (sales and *other*) create.


Are you still at a loss as to why I respond to your posts?

I use the funny little     guys to show a sense of humor,  and I still feel that you are the one posting your negative experience ( opinion) on every thread that mentions Grupo Mayan. 

I will stop if you do?? 

fwiw,

Greg




CatLovers said:


> Greg (*aliikai2*), I am at a loss to understand why my posts are making  you so defensive, to the extent that you have resorted to personal attacks.  I get that you love the Grupo Mayan resorts; I think that's awesome, particularly if you paid some serious coin for it.  In fact, I wish you nothing but years of enjoyment from your purchase.  But my experience has been different.  So different AND so disappointing that I have felt it necessary to help others (who like to vacation the way we do) from falling into the same trap.  The Grand Mayan NV came with a lot of high expectations, probably because of what I've heard from owners such as you who love your purchase.  But ... for us, it fell miles short of those expectations.  Using the words "petty", "diatribe" and "harangue" (in this and another thread) to try and diminish the value of my experience serves no purpose.  This was _*my*_ experience, I was there, you weren't, so you're in no position to comment on it.  You even went as far as to use the "doh" emoticon  in one of your other posts to imply that my input was stupid.  Really?  That's all you've got to fall back on because my opinion doesn't match yours?
> 
> C'mon, one of the great things about a bulletin board such as TUG is that it allows contrarian viewpoints and that we are able to (usually) have cerebral discussions without resorting to personal attacks.  I mean we're talking about a resort here, not religion or politics or a life-or-death issue.  *Do you really need to trash me and my input to feel like you've done a good day's worth of work? * My opinion differs drastically from yours, but if you go back and read what I have written in this and other threads, you will see that I have been respectful of your perspective, and your disrespect towards me is inappropriate and unwarranted.  My beef is with the resort and their management, not with you.


----------



## CatLovers

*Okay, let's call a truce!*



aliikai2 said:


> And if you had merely posted a review I would have had no issue.


Actually, your disrespectful personal attacks towards me started right after I wrote the original review.  Before this I didn't even know you existed, so I was quite taken aback with your tone and choice of words.

I will continue to post where I feel other readers can benefit from my experiences (after all, I've gotten a great deal out of the valuable information that other TUGgers have posted over the years), but I'm not going to continue to engage with you -- there's enough information in this post and this one http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138295 for future readers to make their own decisions about what works best for their holiday plans.  I recognize that you'll probably post a rebuttal every time I post and I'm okay with that (dialogue is good), but I would appreciate if you could ease up on the personal attacks.  It will just make it much more pleasant for both of us  .

Despite your surprising animosity towards me, I truly am happy that you enjoy Grupo Mayan resorts, and I also wish you many great vacations in the future.  The good news (for both of us ) is that we are unlikely to run into one another at the same resort.


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## John Cummings

CatLovers said:


> I have to chuckle when I see the words "first class act" used to describe Grupo Mayan :hysterical:. Over the last couple of weeks I've heard them described by a lot of adjectives, but none of them were anywhere near "first class"!  The words I'm hearing are diametrically opposite, and unfortunately none are complimentary.  Comments from a few people while we visited there just earlier this month, and a whole slew of email comments from others later suggest to me that these guys aggravate as many people as they satisfy.  Too bad their post-visit customer service staff are left to try and clean up the messes that the in-house staff (sales and other) create.



The only people that are aggravated are those that are foolish enough to attend their sales presentations and then buy without even reading the contract. Getting the so called freebies come at a price. We don't do sales presentations as NO gifts are worth as much as our time and tranquility. We have never had any pressure to attend a sales presentation. We just tell them at check-in that we don't do sales presentations and that is all there is to it. We don't hear from them again.

The Grupo Mayan resorts are a first class act with top class resorts and excellent service. We have spent 10 weeks at the Grand Mayans in Riviera Maya and Nuevo Vallarta. In our 23 years of timesharing in many top class resorts including HGVC, Marriott, and the Royals, the Grand Mayans are our favorites by far.

We are exchangers and not owners so we have no vested interest in them. All our exchanges were through SFX.


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## aliikai2

*lol*

Ok Truce, and :rofl:  you never know where we will show up. 

It has never been personal, I don't know you well enough to get personal, it has been about the way you have chosen to propagate this Opinion, nothing personal.  

I still don't think I have been disrespectful, irreverent maybe, cheeky, but always factual.  

As to knowing if I existed,I knew you did as we had a discussion revolving around the value/cost of Shell points/resorts some time back. 

Greg



CatLovers said:


> Actually, y*our disrespectful personal attacks* towards me started right after I wrote the original review.  Before this I didn't even know you existed, so I was quite taken aback with your tone and choice of words.
> 
> I will continue to post where I feel other readers can benefit from my experiences (after all, I've gotten a great deal out of the valuable information that other TUGgers have posted over the years), but I'm not going to continue to engage with you -- there's enough information in this post and this one for future readers to make their own decisions about what works best for their holiday plans.  I recognize that you'll probably post a rebuttal every time I do and I'm okay with that, but I would appreciate if you could ease up on the* personal attacks*.  It will just make it much more pleasant for both of us  .
> 
> Despite your surprising animosity towards me, I truly am happy that you enjoy Grupo Mayan resorts, and I also wish you many great vacations in the future.  The good news (for both of us ) is that we are unlikely to run into one another at the same resort.


----------



## John Cummings

aliikai2 said:


> Catlovers thinks the Shell resorts are 5*, so as she said to each their own opinion. :ignore:
> 
> A Shell resort like the Kauai Beach resort( the old Kauai Beachboy)  is a remodeled motel, with no elevators. Little to any resort activities, 1 overpriced on site restaurant, and a tiny pool.
> 
> She raves about Shell.
> Greg



I have news for her. We have stayed at the Shell Kona Coast Resort in Hawaii and it doesn't come close to being in the same class as the Grand Mayans. There is absolutely no comparison The Shell KCR is just another run of the mill timeshare resorts.


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## DeniseM

We found out we don't like the Mega-resort experience, avoid resort activities, and enjoy a more private, condo-type experience in a timeshare, so we really enjoyed the KCR, and I think the hawaiian decor of the rooms is lovely.  I like it much better than our far more expensive Starwood timeshare on Maui.  (Wish we discovered that a little sooner! )  Obviously, with timesharing, like many other things - beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but our KCR unit was one of the nicest we ever stayed in.


----------



## pjrose

I'm all for different viewpoints, but what I don't like is when the posts veer away from the issue - in this case a resort and people's experiences - and refer in critical or argumentative ways to TUGgers - e.g. "you" or "she".


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## CatLovers

John Cummings said:


> We have stayed at the Shell Kona Coast Resort in Hawaii and it doesn't come close to being in the same class as the Grand Mayans. *There is absolutely no comparison.* The Shell KCR is just another run of the mill timeshare resorts.



LOL, John, I've stayed there too!  And you know what, I'd agree with your statement "There is absolutely no comparision"  Except  ... I'd pick the KCR style of resort any day over the Grand Mayan Nuevo Vallarta!  Just goes to show you that there are different strokes for different folks.  I suppose that's a good thing otherwise we'd all be fighting each other to get into the same resorts.


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## DeniseM

pjrose said:


> I'm all for different viewpoints, but what I don't like is when the posts veer away from the issue - in this case a resort and people's experiences - and refer in critical or argumentative ways to TUGgers - e.g. "you" or "she".



Exactly - can't we discuss the pros and cons of a resort, without making it personal???


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## ondeadlin

DeniseM said:


> Exactly - can't we discuss the pros and cons of a resort, without making it personal???



For the most part, people on TUG generally do a great job of this. It's part of what I like most about TUG.

There are a small contingent of folks who work very, very hard to drive off or discredit people who disagree with them about a small select number of subjects. Safety concerns in Mexico in general and the Grand Mayan properties in particular are two of those subjects. Some of the folks involved obviously have a financial interest in promoting both. They're not content to simply post an opposite viewpoint without attacking those who disagree with them.

This creates the difficult decision of either (a) letting bullies win; or (b) causing disruption by dealing with them the way they deal with others.

It's been going on for a while, and I believe a moderator-driven solution is probably overdue. Any posts that get personal should be deleted. Period. Should have happened in this part of TUG a long time ago IMO.


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## pjrose

ondeadlin said:


> . . . *Any posts that get personal should be deleted. Period. *. . .



I'd rather see this than locking a thread.


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## ondeadlin

Yes, I think sometimes certain elements want to get a thread locked, so that it disappears and can't be discussed.

I think consistent deletions would quickly cause people to excise certain behaviors from their posting repertoire, and that deletions would then become fairly rare.


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## mikenk

ondeadlin said:


> There are a small contingent of folks who work very, very hard to drive off or discredit people who disagree with them about a small select number of subjects. Safety concerns in Mexico in general and the Grand Mayan properties in particular are two of those subjects. Some of the folks involved obviously have a financial interest in promoting both. They're not content to simply post an opposite viewpoint without attacking those who disagree with them.



I know you meant this one way, but it works both ways. There are a number of people who work very, very hard to harbor unfounded fears about Mexico safety and to bash the Grand mayan resorts just for the fun of it and to get reaction. IMHO, they deserve to get discredited.

One thing I believe is if someone tells you something that you have personal experience otherwise, it is perfectly OK to challenge it. 

Mike


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## ondeadlin

Mike,

I agree it works both ways. 

But it's completely possible to simply say, "That's not my experience. Here's my experience ..." without ridiculing someone else's opinion and basically saying they're too cheap or lowbrow to enjoy Grand Mayan (which has happened multiple times on this thread).

For instance, isn't there a huge difference between saying "I don't think anyone bashes the GM resorts just for the fun of it. They do it because they've had bad experiences. It's just not that much fun to do for amusement, really."

... or writing a sneering post filled with  adjectives that suggest anyone holding such an opinion not only has two screws loose, but is so far below both of us on the food chain that it's questionable why we're even talking to them on a message board.

Sometimes we have to accept that what we view as "unfounded" is just our own personal opinion, and there is no plain and simple "correct" answer. That seems to be the No. 1 issue here.


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## pjrose

Hypothetical examples:

"I disagree, I think the resort ....." That is about the resort.   

vs 

"You .... and your  ...."  That is about a TUGger.  

I respectfully suggest that in cases such as the second example, mods strike that part of the post and insert a reminder to stay on topic.


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## mikenk

There are a number of different type of posts on this and every forum. There are spammers - those that fire for effect (they do exist on TUG). IMHO, they should be discredited. There are people who state things that are just wrong - they should be corrected. There are ranters; they should be just ignored. There are posts on opinions; they should be discussed openly and fairly as this is what it is supposed to be all about. The trick is knowing which you are dealing with as they all tend to blend together on many threads. I must admit, I react differently on my posts depending on my interpretation of intent. I suspect most will do the same.

However, no reason ever to get personal.

Mike


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## sally13

*people ,people people...*

Are  you all not aware of what is going on here??...ondeadline,greg ,prose??

full moon folks...emotions are at a peak!!It is great these topics are coming out.. but  at times like these it is better to break out the merlot and relax...heck were not going to solve all the worlds  problems tonight..

although if your up for it..have at it!!I agree with you ondeadline..Threads are locked too often....

Mike...hope all is well..you must have a birthday in september/october...your a peacemaker for sure!!


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## Karen G

pjrose said:


> I respectfully suggest that in cases such as the second example, mods strike that part of the post and insert a reminder to stay on topic.


  As the moderator of this forum, I'd like to give you my opinion.  We're all adults here and I think we can have conversations and express our experiences and opinions politely. I actually do have a life beyond TUG and I am a volunteer, not a paid employee.  I don't always have time to read every post on every thread every day 24 hrs. a day.  Sometimes by the time I get to a thread it may have several posts in it. I may not have time to go through each post and pick and choose what to delete and what to leave, & whatever I do  I'm sure there will be those who'd love to jump on the bandwagon and criticize the edits or closures I've made. It's a tough job but somebody's got to do it! 

Even if a green light appears on a post I've made, I may or may not be reading TUG at the time.  I have TUG open on my computer all the time whether I'm looking at it or not. 

I was thinking about the contentious discussions we've had lately and trying to figure out why there is such "passion" about Grupo Mayan resorts.  At first glance the heated arguments make about as much sense as two people arguing about which dessert is the best--chocolate cake or banana cream pie. Each one likes his dessert and can't understand why the other person doesn't see it his way. How could one be so stupid as to prefer pie over cake or vice versa.

Then I came to the conclusion that maybe those who are so adamant about the virtues of GM are more than just happy owners or exchangers--maybe they have a financial interest in GM. Maybe they are trying to sell or rent their unit(s) and they want to have only glowing reports given and not negative reports allowed.  Just a thought.

Whatever the motivation, can't we just all get along.


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## MuranoJo

Karen G said:


> Then I came to the conclusion that maybe those who are so adamant about the virtues of GM are more than just happy owners or exchangers--maybe they have a financial interest in GM. Maybe they are trying to sell or rent their unit(s) and they want to have only glowing reports given and not negative reports allowed.  Just a thought.



Karen,

You say this after you deleted my post a few nights ago when I asked why a thread had been closed?   
I know moderators have their hands full and are volunteers, and we sincerely appreciate this.  So now I know I can't question a moderator's decision, so how far can I go in responding to your posting?


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## Karen G

muranojo said:


> Karen,
> 
> You say this after you deleted my post a few nights ago when I asked why a thread had been closed?
> I know moderators have their hands full and are volunteers, and we sincerely appreciate this.  So now I know I can't question a moderator's decision, so how far can I go in responding to your posting?


As far as you dare.  But, follow the rules:

Be Courteous
As we read and respond to others, disagreements are inevitable. Differing points of view are welcomed, and indeed the bbs would be a dull place without them. All users are expected and required to express their disagreements civilly. Refrain from name calling and behavior lectures. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and repeated offenses could get you banned from the bbs. Lively discussion is what the board is all about, but that is no excuse for boorish behavior or bad manners. We are assumed to all be adults. If you don't like a particular thread, stop reading it!

Honor changes entered by moderators
You may not alter, edit, or delete any edits introduced into your message by a Moderator or Administrator. This is considered a serious offense and may result in loss of posting privileges. 

In addition, do not enter complaints about moderation into BBS messages. Such posts will be considered off-topic and will be removed. Any such complaints or discussion should be communicated to the bbs staff directly via email or personal message.


----------



## mikenk

Karen G said:


> I was thinking about the contentious discussions we've had lately and trying to figure out why there is such "passion" about Grupo Mayan resorts.  At first glance the heated arguments make about as much sense as two people arguing about which dessert is the best--chocolate cake or banana cream pie. Each one likes his dessert and can't understand why the other person doesn't see it his way. How could one be so stupid as to prefer pie over cake or vice versa.
> 
> Then I came to the conclusion that maybe those who are so adamant about the virtues of GM are more than just happy owners or exchangers--maybe they have a financial interest in GM. Maybe they are trying to sell or rent their unit(s) and they want to have only glowing reports given and not negative reports allowed.  Just a thought.
> 
> Whatever the motivation, can't we just all get along.



Karen

I have also thought about that regarding this forum. Trust me, the defenders of the Grand Mayan resorts on TUG are just owners - nothing more. There are two other GM focused forums where most of us also belong where we are quite vocal on things we want changed within the system. Yesterday afternoon, I visited with member services to complain - including on the sales force. However, in spite of the warts, we all seem to have the best vacations in these resorts and we love Mexico.

Speaking for myself, I react a certain way based on how I am treated. If someone critiques something I care about, I react based on how I perceive their motivation and knowledge. I can thank them and learn from it, we can discuss it, or I can challenge if I perceive their motivation or knowledge does not give them that right.

I believe that on TUG, there is quite a few people who just don't like Mexico that for some reason feel they need to post on Mexico forums whenever they have the opportunity. In my judgement, this is wrong motivation usually coupled with little real knowledge; I go into challenge mode.  I think your decision to move the Mexico safety issue to a sticky was great as they now don't have a subject title and new thread to attack with. 

The same can be said on the Grand Mayan resorts. There are a group on here that will jump into any thread to bash the GM system because of their sales tactics and belittle the owners the best they can. The sales tactics are well known and old news; no one defends that but there is never any leeway to discuss with these folks on the good points. For me, that is bad motivation coupled with generally no knowledge, I go into challenge mode.

In reality, Grupo Mayan has created an ownership model that is innovative and avoids many of the current timeshare issues. I have tried to start in the past a discussion to explain and discuss that model on the buying, selling forum. It was impossible to do so as the GM bashers immediately turned it into a field day on the sales tactics: evil there, evil everywhere. 

As a moderator, maybe you need to do what you did with the safety. Make it a sticky to allow ongoing discussion but makes it harder for spam focused threads. Maybe, make a sticky just for sales force related GM issues to free up other discussion.

BTW, I appreciate the work moderators do; tough job.

Mike


----------



## mikenk

Karen,

After a bit more reflection, if you did make a sticky just on GM sales tactics, it might do several positive things:

1: It would allow other more meaningful GM discussions. Any diverting post would be moved.

2: It would give new tuggers a quick place to review what to avoid and how to approach it if they choose to do so. 

3: We know GM monitors this forum, it would give them an easy access to posts and to see severity of impact.

4: many of us have through the sales process many time and can give pointers for people who decide to take or don't want to be bothered.

Anyway, just a thought. 
Mike


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## ondeadlin

Karen,

I appreciate your post and your perspective as a moderator. Thank you for the time you put in as a volunteer and, no, of course we can't ask you to read every post. I'm sorry if I came off as requesting that.

I think Mike has a good idea about a sticky concerning GM sales tactics.

Mike,

I appreciate that you have said there's no reason to get personal. That's all I'm arguing for, and it goes on too often on this forum. I'd also ask you to be a little more honest about the suggestion that "the defenders of the Grand Mayan resorts on TUG are just owners - nothing more." That quote is only partially accurate - some of the most contentious folks on the Mexico forum have websites where they make money renting timeshares. They have a different stake in the game IMO than a simple owner. 

I'd suggest there's nothing wrong with going into challenge mode either, as long as you're not getting personal (and to your credit, you rarely do). 

I will disagree with your contention that "The sales tactics are well known and old news; no one defends that but there is never any leeway to discuss with these folks on the good points. For me, that is bad motivation coupled with generally no knowledge, I go into challenge mode."

It's old news to you. It's not old news to the people who get abused every day. A lot of those people come to TUG seeking help and seeking to warn others. I'd suggest you should be more open to considering that perspective. Yes, it's old news to you and me. No, it's not old news to them.


----------



## mikenk

ondeadlin said:


> It's old news to you. It's not old news to the people who get abused every day. A lot of those people come to TUG seeking help and seeking to warn others. I'd suggest you should be more open to considering that perspective. Yes, it's old news to you and me. No, it's not old news to them.



I understand; that is why I suggested a sticky on that. The problem is that almost all Grand Mayan discussions seem to always get pulled into that discussion. That discussion is old news and does not need to be rehashed every time the GM resorts are mentioned in any thread. There have been many times on the buying selling forum, that the way Grupo Mayan works would be a constructive discussion; however, I just keep quiet as I fear it will totally derail the intent of the thread.

A personal example, we are now in Riviera Maya. One of our guests had a medical emergency - ended up in hospital - had to fly back home. The GM staff from the on-site doctor to the entire staff were great and genuinely caring. I thought of posting that as a thread on something positive, but chose against it as I know where it would have gone as a general posting.

Mike


----------



## ondeadlin

Again, I completely agree with you that a sticky might help. Thanks for the constructive back-and-forth.


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## John Cummings

Karen G said:


> Then I came to the conclusion that maybe those who are so adamant about the virtues of GM are more than just happy owners or exchangers--maybe they have a financial interest in GM. Maybe they are trying to sell or rent their unit(s) and they want to have only glowing reports given and not negative reports allowed.  Just a thought.
> 
> Whatever the motivation, can't we just all get along.



I agree that many do have a vested interest but trust me, I have absolutely NO vested interest whatsoever in Grupo Mayan or any Mexican timeshares. In fact we have chosen not to visit Mexico period anymore. We skipped it last year and will no longer go there.

Having said that, I still believe that the Grand Mayans are excellent resorts with superb service.


----------



## CatLovers

mikenk said:


> However, no reason ever to get personal.



Glad to hear it Mike!  



mikenk said:


> I consider post #28 such a post. It is a condescending post from someone *who in reality knows very little about the subject* - the cute little icons thrown in for effect. I'm sorry but that kind of rhetoric does not sit well with me.



Post #28 was mine.  I can see how my comment rubbed you the wrong way, particularly given what I've learned in the last few days about the opposing sentiments regarding Grupo Mayan and their resorts.  For the record, my comment was intended to reflect on Grupo Mayan and their management, and not any individual TUG member.  However, suggesting that I "know very little about the subject" is inappropriate and disrespectful.  You don't know me and what my knowledge and experiences are.  Granted, less than two weeks ago, all I thought I was doing was submitting a review about my experience at GMNV, only to discover that I unknowingly stumbled into quite the firestorm.  My knowledge comes from sources that are different than yours, and it is obviously contrary to your experiences, but it is no less real and no less valuable.  You have suggested previously that I have just one data point to consider; I hope you now know that even though I have one first-hand data point, I have been the unexpected recipient of a deluge of second-hand data points, all of which are negative, and many of which don't just refer to the unethical sales practices at Grupo Mayan.  Many (but not all) of the unsolicited emails that I have received (not as a result of my posting on TUG, but because I posted elsewhere) are from unhappy people who have been able to separate "sales" from "operations" and have been disappointed and disillusioned by both.

Anyway, as I have said several times before, my objective is not to change your mind nor to diminish the value of your experiences.  But I would ask that you extend the same courtesy to me and to other people who don't have the same perspective on this situation as you do.

P.S. I hope you noticed that I haven't used any emoticons in this post (just dying to put a smiley face in here, but holding back ...)


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## sally13

*Catlover...*

With all due respect...Grupo Mayan not being a 1st class resort???

I agree,that you should be allowed to rant...Heck I enjoy A good rant every now and then!!

But ....facts are facts..Grupo has thousands and thousands of people that do not agree with you...

they can not all be smoking something can they???         :  for GRUPO MAYAN!!...its not a cult ...its a timeshare!!


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## tombo

There are a lot of posts here talking about civility on this forum by the very people who are the meanest and rudest on a consisten basis (not naming any names so if you respond you must feel like you are guilty). There are mainly 3 subjects on TUG where you will get called names, belittled, ridiculed, and attacked if you post negative comments, and that is if you state that you don't like something associated with Disney, that you don't like Marriott, and worst of all here if you state anything negative about Mexico or a couple of the Mexican Timeshares.

 It is sad for guests, first time Tuggers, and even regulars who get sold a timeshare  by a salesman who lied about what they were selling because when the buyers come here to post their experience and want to get advice,  all they get is attacked. If someone says the Grand Mayan ripped me off it is like you insulted somebody's momma. The bashers start with what happened to reading a contract, what happened to personal responsibility, what happened to common sense, you just couldn't afford it, you are an uneducated idiot, etc, etc, etc. I want to know what happened to people blaming the lying sales organization who tricks people into buying using lies and misrepresentation? Why defend a practice that is immoral and propbaly illegal? A verbal contract is enforceable in the US and possibly in Mexico too. Why defend the criminals and blame the vicitims?

If the poster defends themselves it is turned around by the attacker that they were attacked and they "Quote" the responses from the OP while ignoring where the fireworks actually started with their own posts. The OP can battle it out in an ever escalating rude discourse until the moderatoer steps in or simply quit posting and go away. Once they drive the OP from the forum they are happy and wait for the next victim to post here hoping for advice and sympathy so they can drive them forever from TUG too.

Facts: Mexico has a high crime rate. Yes I have been there and was never robbed or murdered, that doesn't mean that the high crime rate is not for real. New Orleans has a high crime rate and I have never been robbed or murdered there either, but it is one of the most dangerous cities in the US. Informing travelers about the dangers of both places has a place on TUG, and no one should be offended the statements were made. If I (or someone I read about ) get robbed getting on the Pirates of The Carribbean or at a mexican cantina I should be able to post about it without being attacked by Disney lovers or Mexico lovers.

Fact: Every owner, guest, and visitor who has been through a Mayan timeshare presentation can agree that the salesmen LIE to make sales. I can't count the lies I heard the last time, and they knew I own multiple timeshares. magine what they would have said if I knew nothing about it. The simple fact is that the lies work sometimes or they wouldn't do it. Don't attack the victim, attack the lying salesmen and the company that refuses to stop the immoral sales practice which takes advantage of many people who are simply too trusting. I fell sorry for the people (young or old, educated or not) who get home after the recission period has passed and are locked into a purchase that is nothing like they were promised it was.

I am going to get blasted now I am sure, but anyone who is honest including the posters here can start at the beginning of the thread and see that the OP was stating their feelings about what happened to them and not attacking anyone or being argumentative. That quickly degenerated to personal attacks and rude posts by Mayan/mexico lovers as it always does here. I don't think that threads should be locked, but there are some posters who need to have their posts deleted as soon as they get rude or abusive. If you re-read your posts and the shoe fits, try some compassion, understanding, and civility when someone posts something you disagree with in the future. This forum is the worst on TUG unless you want to come here and say warm fuzzy things about Mexican trips and resorts.

PS My son is spending a week in Mexico that I am paying for this spring for his honeymoon. I advised him that he needs to be careful where he goes because of the crime and drugs. I told him my feelings and let him choose a location from many choices including Mexico. He chose Mexico. So before you blast me as someone scared or who hates Mexico, I am paying for my son and his bride to spend a week on the Mayan Riviera.


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## Karen G

*Thank you all for the thoughtful posts*

I was really dreading opening this thread this morning. But, much to my delight, I'm seeing some really thoughtful and polite posts.  I think the idea of creating a sticky for the GM is a good one. I'll let this thread run a little longer and then I'll move it to the top with a sticky.

Since today is my birthday & I've got a lot of fun stuff planned starting with my Zumba class and ending with a stay at one of the new hotels in City Center on the Las Vegas Strip:whoopie: , I'll put on my moderator hat when I return. In the meantime, play nice.


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## LynnW

Karen G said:


> I was really dreading opening this thread this morning. But, much to my delight, I'm seeing some really thoughtful and polite posts.  I think the idea of creating a sticky for the GM is a good one. I'll let this thread run a little longer and then I'll move it to the top with a sticky.
> 
> Since today is my birthday & I've got a lot of fun stuff planned starting with my Zumba class and ending with a stay at one of the new hotels in City Center on the Las Vegas Strip:whoopie: , I'll put on my moderator hat when I return. In the meantime, play nice.



It's my birthday today as well Karen! Have fun celebrating. I will have to wait until tomorrow to celebrate because I'm too busy packing to go to Mazatlan tomorrow. It will be more fun to do it there anyway. Happy Birthday!

Lynn


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## mikenk

tombo said:


> Facts: Mexico has a high crime rate. Yes I have been there and was never robbed or murdered, that doesn't mean that the high crime rate is not for real. New Orleans has a high crime rate and I have never been robbed or murdered there either, but it is one of the most dangerous cities in the US. Informing travelers about the dangers of both places has a place on TUG, and no one should be offended the statements were made. If I (or someone I read about ) get robbed getting on the Pirates of The Carribbean or at a mexican cantina I should be able to post about it without being attacked by Disney lovers or Mexico lovers.



For me, the problem with this paragraph is that it is misleading. Mexico is a huge country; people visit tourist areas not just Mexico. The crime rate in Juarez is sky high, my bet it is very low in Cabo. I would hate someone not to visit Cabo because of the crime rate elsewhere; it is unfair to the people in that really nice part of Mexico. Personally, whenever I see this type of post, i will always challenge it, but it should end there: one opinion and an opposing opinion.

Mike


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## pjrose

mikenk said:


> For me, the problem with this paragraph is that it is misleading. Mexico is a huge country; people visit tourist areas not just Mexico. The crime rate in Juarez is sky high, my bet it is very low in Cabo. I would hate someone not to visit Cabo because of the crime rate elsewhere; it is unfair to the people in that really nice part of Mexico. *Personally, whenever I see this type of post, i will always challenge it, but it should end there: one opinion and an opposing opinion.*
> 
> Mike



Not necessarily.  A discussion can go back and forth and there can be various people with various opinions.  

In my opinion a problem would occur (to use the subject matter of your example) if someone posted _*"Well you often post about high crime rates but you obviously understand the statistics..." *_ Or _*"You have your head in the sand if you believe....."*_  That's when the content has switched from the original topic to the TUGgers.


----------



## buceo

tombo said:


> Facts: Mexico has a high crime rate. Yes I have been there and was never robbed or murdered, that doesn't mean that the high crime rate is not for real. New Orleans has a high crime rate and I have never been robbed or murdered there either, but it is one of the most dangerous cities in the US. Informing travelers...



I can't find a take home message in the comparison a country to a city in another country. But it happens on this site. I love NO; The French Quarter, can't imagine not going because of the crime in NO, it's a big city.  We also go once or twice a year to MX's resort towns, maybe with guests and rent to 2-4 groups each year.  That's a good deal of personal experience and feedback year after year.  I don't get much, except frustrated, from occasional posts that arise from those that don't or no longer visit a destination and still feel they know best.  How many plane loads of people have a great time in MX and New Orleans every day?  How much does one need to study the crime stats in the US or MX if visiting The French Quarter or Playa del Carmen?


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## mikenk

Deleted post


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## MuranoJo

I'm not sure Mike got swiped--but I did a few nights ago for the first time.  But that's because I was questioning a moderator's decision, which is against posting rules.  I've been a bad girl, but I'll really try to amend my ways.   

Happy Birthday, Karen.


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## DeniseM

Regarding the 3 posts I deleted from this thread:  Editorializing about how moderators should or should not do their jobs on TUG is not open for discussion. This is the 2nd time the same warning has been posted in this thread.    



> Honor changes entered by moderators
> You may not alter, edit, or delete any edits introduced into your message by a Moderator or Administrator. This is considered a serious offense and may result in loss of posting privileges.
> 
> *In addition, do not enter complaints about moderation into BBS messages. Such posts will be considered off-topic and will be removed. Any such complaints or discussion should be communicated to the bbs staff directly via email or personal message.*



Stay on topic, folks.


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## mikenk

muranojo said:


> I'm not sure Mike got swiped--but I did a few nights ago for the first time.  But that's because I was questioning a moderator's decision, which is against posting rules.  I've been a bad girl, but I'll really try to amend my ways.
> 
> Happy Birthday, Karen.



I deleted my post - I accidentally sent it before finishing last night - couldn't see how to just remove it - too tired to edit.  I am traveling back home today so might not get back to it.

I wasn't being punished. Sorry for any confusion.

Mike


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## sally13

*sorry Mike..*

back to the corner for me..Muranjo What could you ever come up with that would be worthy of swiping??

On topic...Travel CAN be dangerous...A good buddy of ours..great fellow ..Friendly, polite,good natured,got jumped right in the french quater with people around,( for 2 bucks in his wallet)..he now has a steel plate in his head..he is not the same..

On a trip to P.vallarta, a work  ascociates purse was nabbed downtown...Her husband went after the guy...the thief turned around and split him wide open from the navel to the throat..they spent 2 weeks in a mexican hospital before they could transport him back... 

lesson..ALWAYS watch your back in ANY big city and when a thief strikes..DO NOT RESIST!!..often they have a LOT more to lose (IF CAUGHT) then you...

We love mexico and these events can and DO happen all the time every where.


----------



## CatLovers

ondeadlin said:


> "The defenders of the Grand Mayan resorts on TUG are just owners - nothing more."
> 
> That quote is only partially accurate - some of the most contentious folks on the Mexico forum have websites where they make money renting timeshares. They have a different stake in the game IMO than a simple owner.



Ah, I didn't know that.  Thanks, it offers an insight.


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## Karen G

*Grupo Mayan discussions--put all posts here*

I am going to see if it will work to put all Grupo Mayan discussions in this sticky post.  Please post to this thread any thoughts you have concerning the Grupo Mayan resort group. 

The most recent posts will be on the last page.


----------



## mikenk

Karen G said:


> I am going to see if it will work to put all Grupo Mayan discussions in this sticky post.  Please post to this thread any thoughts you have concerning the Grupo Mayan resort group.
> 
> The most recent posts will be on the last page.



Karen,

A suggestion would be to have this thread "Grupo Mayan Sales Practices" rather than all GM subjects. I would hate to see discussions on the resorts, questions, restaurants, etc lost in the sales tactics discussions. There are lots of folks that go there that couldn't care less about sales tactics but would like general questions answered. To me, these should be in the main forum.

Mike


----------



## Karen G

mikenk said:


> Karen,
> 
> A suggestion would be to have this thread "Grupo Mayan Sales Practices" rather than all GM subjects.


 I'll think about that. Often a thread will touch on both sales practices as well as the resort in general, so sometimes it may be hard to separate them. I don't have time right now to try to sort through it as I have an appointment to get to, but let's see what everyone thinks about that. 

I hope others will post their thoughts and we'll see what we can come up with that will work.


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## John Cummings

If your goal is to get all the posts about the sale practices of Grupo Mayan in one place then I think you need to have a separate "sticky". Even then, there will still be people that will start new threads when they feel they have been ripped off.

Mike is quite right that the sales issues should be separate from people that just want info about the resorts, area, etc. or are posting info about them.


----------



## mikenk

Karen G said:


> I'll think about that. Often a thread will touch on both sales practices as well as the resort in general, so sometimes it may be hard to separate them.



That is why I suggested that - to see if we can separate them to keep focus on what people care about.

Thanks for considering,
Mike


----------



## pjrose

mikenk said:


> Karen,
> 
> A suggestion would be to have this thread "Grupo Mayan Sales Practices" rather than all GM subjects. I would hate to see discussions on the resorts, questions, restaurants, etc lost in the sales tactics discussions. There are lots of folks that go there that couldn't care less about sales tactics but would like general questions answered. To me, these should be in the main forum.
> 
> Mike



That's what I thought too.  That way questions about activities, restaurants, etc wouldn't get tangled up with the sales issues.


----------



## MuranoJo

sally13 said:


> back to the corner for me..Muranjo What could you ever come up with that would be worthy of swiping??



Hmmm, not sure how to take this.  Obviously it was enough to be swipe-worthy, but you had to be here during the 'witching hour' to see it, as it was here and gone pretty quickly.


----------



## Karen G

Thanks for the comments.  I've also been re-thinking the issue of having a sticky where all posts about Grupo Mayan would be posted, and I agree that it isn't really feasible to try to lump all the GM posts together.  Therefore, I've "unstuck" this thread.

I do see the value of having the sticky about safety in Mexico & having all posts on that topic in one place.  But, I'm not so sure that one resort group should have a sticky. There are many resorts in Mexico, and there's no compelling reason to single one out for a sticky.

With the search feature on TUG and Google, people seem to be able to find the posts concerning sales practices easily.  

The whole idea of the sticky in the first place, in my mind at least, was to try to resolve the bickering, arguing, and general "pot stirring."  Posts that violate TUG rules can be deleted. As always, I would appreciate problem posts being reported so that they can be dealt with more quickly.


----------



## mikenk

Karen,

I agree with your conclusion - probably should change the title on this thread to avoid confusion with folks that haven't been following this thread.

With that said, we all know that the timeshare sale lies and tactics are common and similar across the industry. My guess is that Grupo Mayan has taken it way past others in sheer volume if nothing else; at one time on one day last week, in one location at one resort, I observed about 200 families in the process. I am sure very few were prepared.

When I look at the Stickies on both the Mexico and the "Buying / Selling" boards, I see nothing to help prepare people for the GM or other sales tactics. We have one on how to rescind, but not one on preparation to not have to rescind.

Many of us have been through many and can give advice on countermeasures and how to win, others on how to just say no, others to account the pain of losing. So maybe a sticky on one of those boards something like "tips for wining in timeshare discussions" or something like that.

Just a thought,
Mike


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## Karen G

Okay, Mike & others, let's try having a thread about Mexican timeshare presentations and how to avoid being taken advantage of by unscrupulous sales practices.  I'll start the thread and people can contribute to it & we'll see if we end up with something that we want to make a sticky out of.


----------



## mikenk

Karen G said:


> Okay, Mike & others, let's try having a thread about Mexican timeshare presentations and how to avoid being taken advantage of by unscrupulous sales practices.  I'll start the thread and people can contribute to it & we'll see if we end up with something that we want to make a sticky out of.



Nice idea. I will certainly take a stab at it from my perspective on my GM experience - need to think through how best to present it though.

Mike


----------



## Karen G

After several posts, I think we've gotten a lot of good information so I've "stuck" the Mexican Timeshare Presentation Boot Camp. It now appears at the top of the Mexico forum page. Additional responses on the topic can be added at any time.


----------



## MuranoJo

muranojo said:


> I'm not sure Mike got swiped--but I did a few nights ago for the first time.  But that's because I was questioning a moderator's decision, which is against posting rules.  I've been a bad girl, but I'll really try to amend my ways.
> 
> Happy Birthday, Karen.





mikenk said:


> I deleted my post - I accidentally sent it before finishing last night - couldn't see how to just remove it - too tired to edit.  I am traveling back home today so might not get back to it.
> 
> I wasn't being punished. Sorry for any confusion.
> 
> Mike



Not that it matters, but just to clarify:  I was responding to another post immediately before mine which suggested you had been 'swiped' (+ other content), and that previous message was soon deleted.  This left my message 'orphaned' or disconnected so to speak.


----------



## DeniseM

muranojo said:


> Not that it matters, but just to clarify:  I was responding to another post immediately before mine which suggested you had been 'swiped' (+ other content), and that previous message was soon deleted.  This left my message 'orphaned' or disconnected so to speak.



I'm sorry about that - your message wasn't inappropriate, so I didn't want to delete it with the ones that were, and make it appear like yours was inappropriate.  I can remove it, and the responses now, if you would like that better.


----------



## MuranoJo

It's fine to leave it, Denise.  Just wanted to leave a clarification.  Appreciate your response, though.


----------



## Karen G

I've moved four posts on this thread that pertained to the general topic of safety in Mexico to the sticky thread at the top of the Mexico forum page. Let's try to keep this thread just on the topic of Grupo Mayan and put discussions about safety of travel in Mexico in that sticky.

Thanks.
Karen G


----------



## qkitty

*Travel around the world*



mossimo said:


> I was told to pay Travel Around the World for the deed transfer.  I waited and waited to hear from TAW.  Just went to Cabo and spoke with the GM about the fact that I have not heard a word nor can I reach anyone from TAW.  GM informed me that they went out of business.  When was anyone going to inform me?  They said that I was not the only person with this problem but did not offer any solution.  I am out $1050 plus I still owe the maintenance fees for my other two timeshares that I thought I was rid of.  Why is it that GM keeps working with crooks? (I too was taken by the rental scam- paid my fees to have someone rent my timeshares and never heard from them again- a company suggested by GM)



I have a number for them 866-553-2933 ext 101 General Help or
877-423-7622.


----------



## qkitty

*Travel around the world*



mossimo said:


> I am currently working with my credit card company to see if they will compensate me for my TAW transfer fees since "service was not rendered" and I have paid my maintenance fees for another year for my other timeshare resorts.  I'm all ears!  Thanks for the support and advice!



I am currently in contact with TAW about transferring our t/s. I have looked at all the posts and it seems once you pay the fee and send in your original docs you are still on the hook for the fees. Does this mean you can still use the weeks? And without original docs does this complicate things?

I am hesitant to send any of the forms back. One in particular relates to SFX having exclusive rights to the weeks and we have to reimburse them if they are assigned elsewhere. Our t/s only uses RCI and they have very specific requirements for transferring ownership. 

BTW, the txfr fee is $545 and they will let me keep it for $700! Is this another shakedown? I am thinking on sitting on all of this.

Please advise.


----------



## Karen G

qkitty said:


> I am currently in contact with TAW about transferring our t/s. I have looked at all the posts and it seems once you pay the fee and send in your original docs you are still on the hook for the fees.


I don't know anything about TAW but someone posted above that they were told that TAW was out of business. Don't send them or anyone else any money upfront for  selling or renting your timeshares. Most outfits that request fees upfront are scams, as you have probably guessed by now.


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## qkitty

Thanks Karen G. I will wait to see if they ever contact me again. In the meantime, I am going to contact my TS and ask about Travel Around the World...and I am going to officially join TUGS. It has been an awesome resource for us and I suspect in the future as well!!


----------



## Grupo Mayan Scam

*Beware the Grupo Mayan scam in Mexico*

WE ATTENDED WHAT WAS TO BE A "90 MINUTE NON-TIMESHARE RELATED PRESENTATION" AT MAYAN PALACE IN FEBRUARY THIS YEAR. ON THE 7TH HOUR, HAVING 2 SMALL KIDS IN THE TOW, WE WERE COMPLETELY WORN OUT. AFTER REPEATEDLY SAYING "NO" TO 6 OR 7 PUSHY SALESPEOPLE WE WERE LEAVING THE RESORT BUT AT THE LAST MOMENT WERE INTERCEPTED ** ANOTHER AGENT, HELENA DANIELSON. SHE SOUNDED SO CONVINCING THAT WE BOUGHT "PARADISE WEEK" PACKAGE FROM HER FOR $3000. Every word she said turned out to be a lie. BEWARE OF THESE PEOPLE, THEY'LL SAY ANYTHING TO GET YOUR MONEY, BUT THEY ARE A COMPLETE FRAUD ! WE LOST THE ENTIRE DAY OUT OF OUR 6 DAY VACATION PLUS $3000. 

During the presentation, the words "Grand Paradise Club" never came up. I had my iPad with me and could have Googled it on the spot to find out about this scam. But Helena led us believe that we were buying discounted weeks from "Advantage Services" (another shell company in this scam food chain). We were shown a booklet with numerous hotels and resorts that will be available for booking to us. A month later, our welcome package arrived in the mail. As we tried to use the booking system, however, we discovered that inventory available at the website is extremely limited and nowhere close to the one we were shown. For the discounted so called “fast weeks” price manipulation is used where an additional mandatory all-inclusive fee must be paid at check-in that brings total cost of reservation well above market price. Cruise certificate also turned our to be a worthless piece of paper, as other posters on this board indicated.

The website is a joke with many links that are totally inaccurate or broken and does not meet commercial website design guidelines. Only few reservations can be made online, other inventory has a “call” banner next to them. When we called for a reservation, we were told that these discounted weeks were not available. We realized that these weeks are no more than “bait and switch” to get customers to call so that Grand Paradise Club can push other stale inventory to them. Also, GPC charges additional reservation fee of for each reservation made – a fact never mentioned in our contract.

We have filed dispute with Mastercard - had anyone have any success with that ? I will post again once I get a response from the credit card company. PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD SO THESE BUSTARDS ARE OUT OF BUSINESS ASAP ! I've seen a post on TripAdvisor.com about setting up a website for a class action - GRANDPARADISESCAM.COM and GRUPOMAYANSCAM.COM. I will let everyone know when they go life so people can join the CLASS ACTION lawsuit. It's a shame Mexican government tolerates this kind of scam going on for years in their prime tourist areas. No wonder Mexico has the reputation it does.


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## pjrose

Search the Mexico forum for "Karen Rose" - she is a customer service representative for Grupo Mayan and has occasionally posted her contact information and offers to help.

Sorry you had such a bad experience.  Their sales practices unfortunately give all the Mexican resorts a bad name, but trust me and thousands of others, not all Mexican resorts engage in such tactics.  There are groups that are straight-up, honest, and not pushy.


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## aliikai2

*This doesn't sound like it is the Grand Mayan*

It sounds like another resort    

Greg


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## Tropical lady

*think you need to double check your info....*

I agree with Greg.  I think you have the wrong resort.  Have never heard of or been presented with "Grand Paradise Club" during any presentations.
Search for Karen Rose as suggested since they monitor forums for Grupo Vidanta and does investigate/clarify contract or purchase issues.
Our web site does not have any call banners.  Grupo Vidanta does not have access to cruise lines or give out certificates. 
Grupo Mayan Scam, which Mayan Palace location since there are at least 5?  You mentioned leaving the resort....you did not stay there?  If you have made a mistake about the resort you visited for the presentation, are you willing to come back and correct? You do know that there are other resorts with similar names and use the name Palace or Mayan in them.


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## mikenk

Tropical lady said:


> I agree with Greg.  I think you have the wrong resort.  Have never heard of or been presented with "Grand Paradise Club" during any presentations.
> Search for Karen Rose as suggested since they monitor forums for Grupo Vidanta and does investigate/clarify contract or purchase issues.
> Our web site does not have any call banners.  Grupo Vidanta does not have access to cruise lines or give out certificates.
> Grupo Mayan Scam, which Mayan Palace location since there are at least 5?  You mentioned leaving the resort....you did not stay there?  If you have made a mistake about the resort you visited for the presentation, are you willing to come back and correct? You do know that there are other resorts with similar names and use the name Palace or Mayan in them.



From the description, it sounds like it is a 3rd party vacation club. I remember when I first attended a GM TS presentation years ago, after I refused, they handed us off to another person at exit that tried to sell the vacation club for like 3K or so. I doubt Karen Rose can help here as I am sure this company is independent except for some type of marketing arrangement.

Mike


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## Tropical lady

Mike,
You may be right, but I think that this would have come up before if it was a sales practice.  Never heard anyone mention it.  Thought OP might have confused the resort since I do know that Moon Palace has such a program and there are other Mayan named resorts.
But this does bring up those "special" discover/try us offers that we were pressured with at the ends of both the Wyndham and Marriott presentations in Pompano Beach ad Palm Beach during summer 2010. For $1900 or whatever we got a week/weeks/points to try the system, then come back and that was applied to the purchase price.  There was not an understanding of NO until the door shut behind us.  Of course we did not bite....
Sad to think this is industry wide.


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## rpennisi

If you Google...grand paradise club membership...you will see many references to Mayan Palace and Grand Mayan, etc.
I think the OP has the correct resort, regardless of which of the 5 she attended.
Ron


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## Tropical lady

*what has happened in the last 5 days???*

Grupo Mayan Scam has not been back since the day of posting 7/14.  
We suggested contacting Karen Rose since none of us were familiar with this sales tactic.
Just like some other posts, it would be appreciated if the OP came back with some information or feedback they received from the company after posting.


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## Grupo Mayan Scam

After about 5 months back-and-forth with the credit card company we got full credit ($3000) for the mistake we've made with Grand Paradise Club. I felt so stupid for believing even a tiny portion of their lies ! We supplied credit card with all the facts proving that Grand Paradise Club/Grupo Mayan is basically a fraudulent operation, including excerpts from this site. Their salespeople are exploiting the fact that Western business culture is based on trust. If you are not trustworthy, you don't stay in business for long. Well, apparently not so in Mexico, where they rely on constant influx of first-timers lured in their spiderweb by free "gifts" offered at the airport. The gifts, by the way, are not even worth the 6+ ours of vacation time a typical victim would waste on a supposedly "90 minute non-timeshare related presentation". That's why the first question they ask travel-fatigued people at the airport is - "Is it your first time in Mexico ?". First timers are their primary target. Half way through the process, GM found me and offered to "settle" provided I removed my posts from TripAdvisor, scam.com, redweek.com, mescam.com and other sites. I saw some people retracting their posts, but how could I be sure that I won't be scammed again ?! Just search for "Vera Christopher" on scam.com forum - this lady from the UK has fought for 3 years with no result ! Grupo Mayan demanded that I execute all paperwork and remove my posts UPFRONT. So they ask to be trusted with MY MONEY having lied to me and thousands of other victims before but they's won't trust ME with anything ?! That's what defines crooks ! The "settlement" required that I sign a bunch of legal mambo-jumbo surrounding all the rights to ever make details of the settlement public. I ran it by my lawyer and he stated that this so called contract is basically non-enforceable piece of crap as a person can always hide under a different nick which is not traceable back to the individual. All it is designed for is to scare s**t out of honest law-abiding citizens. Nonetheless, there was always a chance that my signed settlement could have been used in credit card dispute as a proof of my dropped claims, so I decided to press with the credit card first. Glad I did. I guess other posters where less lucky in their credit card dispute process and had to succumb to Grupo Mayan demands. My gut feeling was that they won't part with the money easily, always trying to sell you something else, just as they do after an unsuccessful timeshare pitch at so called "exit interview". That's where I was belittled by Helena Danielson for not having "faith in humanity". I do have Faith in Humanity, Helena, but YOU are NOT part of the humanity as I define it ! After we wasted whole day away from our 6 day vacation, my 2 small kids were sweaty from the heat and dehydrated, but they would not even allow kids to use swimming pool ! Imagine if you are treated like that BEFORE they grab your money what would it be AFTER you sign on the dotted line ! GM has a whole investigatory department stuffed with English speaking American and Canadian ex-pats who traded their integrity for a perpetual vacation mode lifestyle in Mexico. Their job is to cut losses and sweet talk internet posters into removing or retracting their posts. Their typical line is "Everyone has complains. Apple has complains. Honda has complains". Yeah, right. As if dropping a name or two of great companies next to a scam operation would somehow cleanse them from their wrongdoing. Search scam warning blogs for Honda or Apple or Best Buy. I am sure the'll appreciate it if you let them know of any hits !


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## siesta

Thanks for coming back and updating us. Im glad they only got you for $3k, others get taken for much worse. Hopefully you get your money back. Those of us who follow this board recall Vera Christopher. She was a woman on a mission to say the least.


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## pjrose

I'm so glad your perseverance paid off and that you posted your detailed update!  Good for you for not letting them intimidate you.  

Thanks for posting, and now that you are on TUG, look for rentals and/or resales!

And oh yeah, I certainly remember Vera.


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## GrupoMayan/GrandParadise Scam

I also purchased the paradise weeks when I was in Cabo earlier this year. I didn't think I was getting something for nothing or it was too good to be true. 

When I got home is when I realized most of what they told me were lies. As far as I am concerned, the presentation took place at The Grand Mayan, Grupo Mayan was mentioned as well as Grand Paradise and other names. That makes them all guilty in what I consider a scam.

I did dispute the charge with my credit card company. I spoke to the sales rep in Mexico as well as the rep at The Grand Paradise. I kept a log of names, dates and what was said and provided all that info to my credit card company.

It took about 4 months, but my credit card company found in my favor. 

I wish the best for those that are trying to get refunded for a service that was based on lies!


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## Aimfair

We are all exposed to scams.  Unethical sales tactics are used in all industries.  They are "risks of doing business".  The "costs of doing business" are the costs of unraveling actions that have gone too far, if you follow what I'm talking about.  Sorry for the gobbledygook; my wife tells me it is one of my many faults.

So recently, I was asked if had ever heard of Grupo Vidanta or Grand Luxxe or a company referred by GV or GL offering to buy five years of excess weeks for $4,500 per week.  The economics sounded great!  I told my friend that I have never received such an offer.

Also, other friends have been offered items through the Vidanta Sales organization that I have never seen nor heard about.  In fact one of our fellow Tuggers once asked why he was not offered the opportunity to buy a particular product, when others were given the "opportunity to buy."

These instances of differing offers to buy or sell seem to be real, or they would not be cropping up all the time.  They also seem to be part of the sales process, which as we all know is very sophisticated and disciplined.

It is good to know that Grand Paradise Club seems to be the GV company that offers low priced deals.  Another company called something like Global Alliance supposedly buys excess weeks from GL members.

Times are tough for everyone, and timeshare sales are suffering.  I am sure we all will see more new offers that may not deliver what is promised.

It is good that you stuck to your guns.  Congratulations!


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## dkburgess

*Cancelling contract*

We were told at the Grand Mayan Riviera Maya we would have a 90 minute presentation on Dec. 14.  It lasted SEVEN hours. We requested many times to leave. After getting ill, we finally gave in and purchased with them.  I asked about rescinding the contract but the salesman told me I couldn't.  However, I found the Profeco website and they inform me that I have five business days to rescind.  So, yesterday I contacted my credit card company to dispute the charge.  Tonight (Dec. 18) I emailed Karen Rose, Ruben Garcia, Brad Fox and Salvador Gomez Letipichia, Profeco, Advantage services and my attorney that I was rescinding the contract within the five days allowed by Mexican law.  

I hope that Grupo Mayan does the right and legal thing and processes my rescinding contract quickly.

Today, Dec. 19, 2011, the company quickly responded to my wanting to cancel my contract and is settling the issue.


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## Karen G

Do you have a page anywhere within the contract that you signed with instructions as to how to rescind? It would be good to send a letter with proof of mailing from the post office to prove that you sent it within the five days that the law allows.


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## mouse

*Grupo Mayan--Mayan Palace--Vida Vacations*

How many times does the concerned customer service department have to be e-mailed before they will respond? I have sent complaint e-mails to the different customer service addresses with absolutely zero response. How about it Karen Rose?!!!!!!!!!!


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## Grupo Mayan

Dear "Mouse": 

Please check the emails being used to contact us. The email to reach the Customer Support area we personally check and have used to achieve communications with our clients and members is grupomayanblog@grupovidanta.com. We constantly receive emails on that account and take care of matters immediately. We are confident there are many clients that can attest to that.

Another way to contact us, which is faster, is by calling us at 1-800-292-9446.

For any other querie about your contract if you are a Mayan Palace member, you can use customerservice@mayanpalace.com or our generic email which is customerservice@grupovidanta.com

Hoping this information is useful, we look forward to continuing this dialogue by having you use our proper communication channels.

Sincerely, 
Karen Rose
Customer Support Representative.


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## dkburgess

dkburgess said:


> We were told at the Grand Mayan Riviera Maya we would have a 90 minute presentation on Dec. 14.  It lasted SEVEN hours. We requested many times to leave. After getting ill, we finally gave in and purchased with them.  I asked about rescinding the contract but the salesman told me I couldn't.  However, I found the Profeco website and they inform me that I have five business days to rescind.  So, yesterday I contacted my credit card company to dispute the charge.  Tonight (Dec. 18) I emailed Karen Rose, Ruben Garcia, Brad Fox and Salvador Gomez Letipichia, Profeco, Advantage services and my attorney that I was rescinding the contract within the five days allowed by Mexican law.
> 
> I hope that Grupo Mayan does the right and legal thing and processes my rescinding contract quickly.
> 
> Today, Dec. 19, 2011, the company quickly responded to my wanting to cancel my contract and is settling the issue.



On Dec. 22, a refund was issued to my credit card to cancel my contract.


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## Karen G

dkburgess said:


> On Dec. 22, a refund was issued to my credit card to cancel my contract.


Congratulations and thanks for letting us know.


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## Tropical lady

*Just curious.....*

Mouse,
You state that you emailed customer service several times without a response.  Karen Rose and customer service have made themselves available for quite awhile now in these threads.  Even if you had called, there is a 72 hour response to an inquiry, the info which is given to you with all the other details.  Can't complain.....she responded within 43 minutes of your inquiry.
Just to help the rest of us understand........what is the general nature of your issue that you could share? The info might help someone else.
Also...this is a new one....what is Vida Vacations?   Thanks.


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## mouse

*quick response Mayan Palace customer service*

I agree Karen Rose responded to my post very quickly. The only problem is that she is stating I should check the e-mail addresses I am sending my complaint to. I have checked and double check the addresses and so far besides the response from Karen Rose I have received a generic, automated response from one e-mail account stating that they have received my e-mail.


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## mouse

*Vida Vacations---Mayan Palace*



Tropical lady said:


> Mouse,
> You state that you emailed customer service several times without a response.  Karen Rose and customer service have made themselves available for quite awhile now in these threads.  Even if you had called, there is a 72 hour response to an inquiry, the info which is given to you with all the other details.  Can't complain.....she responded within 43 minutes of your inquiry.
> Just to help the rest of us understand........what is the general nature of your issue that you could share? The info might help someone else.
> Also...this is a new one....what is Vida Vacations?   Thanks.



The general issue with Mayan Palace is the sales tactics that I have found numerous other people have experienced the same problems. I have read a lot of complaints and I have been trying to settle my dispute privately per Karen Rose's suggestion to other people on this and other forums. Vida Vacations brands are:Grand Luxxe, The Grand Bliss,The Grand Mayan,The Bliss and Mayan Palace. Web site www.vidavacations.com.


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## Tropical lady

When I went into the web site for Vida Vacations I realized that since we are owners we have not used that term and forgot that site as it seems to be geared for non owners.  Thanks for the reminder.......
Yes, the sales tactics can be high pressure along with other Mexican resorts mentioned in other threads.  Our last "update" several weeks ago in Nuevo was the most pressure we have had out of 4 in 4 years.  The others were informative and ok.  At this point we know what to expect/anticipate, but this was a surprise.  Anyhow, I just told him what I thought of him, no upgrade that day due soley to him and ended conversation.  On to Cancun!!
I hope your concerns get resolved to your satisfaction.


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