# Exit row seats and short people



## jfbookers (May 17, 2009)

Who should be sitting in the exit rows that usually have extra leg room? Some think they should go to whoever asks first, but at 6'5" it pains me in several ways to see it occupied by a 5' person who can't even use that extra room while I am crammed into a regular seat, probably making the people on both sides wish I was somewhere else. In addition to the predictable pain from the lack of room, my knees no longer can bend for a long period of time the way they used to. The 5 footer above would not have these problems and would make at least 3 other passengers have a better flight.
I know it probably can't be enforced by airlines but why dose that short person want that seat?
Please, I don't dislike short people (my wife is <5'4") but do question their behavior in requesting seats with extra leg room. Hope we can keep this civil. Yours, Jim


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## CatLovers (May 17, 2009)

Because even 5'2" people find the regular seats cramped and value the additional leg room available in the exit rows.  And as someone who spends 1/3 of her life on airplanes, not being cramped is a big deal.  Perhaps it is not as big a deal to people who fly only 3-4 times a year?

I, for one, am very grateful that the airlines recognize my frequent flier status and assign me the exit row seat, despite my height (or lack thereof).


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## pjrose (May 17, 2009)

The most important criterion is who can open the exit doors.  

Beyond that, can't you just reserve what you want online or ask at the gate?  I guess that makes it first come.....   I think there's also a way to add extra info to your reservation - can't remember what it's called - but adding 6'5" might go there.

I'm 5'7" and can't bend my knees for long, but I'd be happy to give up my exit row or bulkhead seat to you if you asked nicely!


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## Keitht (May 17, 2009)

Many airlines only allocate exit row seats at check in, so it's basically first come, first served.  If you want more chance of getting those seats you have to be prepared to arrive early, and ask very nicely.
Other airlines either give preference to members of their loyalty club or charge a premium for them.
By the way, I'm 6' but my wife is only 5'3".  We will always go for extra legroom on longer flights as I find cattle class seating very restrictive.  My wife doesn't need the extra room, but we do want to sit together.  Maybe that's also the case with the shorter ladies you have seen.


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## Liz Wolf-Spada (May 17, 2009)

On one of our flights to or from Hawaii it was explained what one had to do to be able to comply with FAA requirements and it included lifting up and out that heavy door. Once learning that, I make sure I don't sit in exit row seats. I'm only 4'10" and the non-exit rows fit me fine with not much to spare. I can't imagine being over 6' on a long flight!
Liz


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## Bruce W (May 17, 2009)

While the exit rows would be fine, our complaint (I am 6'4', Terry 5'11") are the folks who find it necessary to lie down on your knees. Most of the time they are shorter people, who have never experienced the situation. Yeah, I know I can ask them to go up a bit, and some do, most will and then gradually inch back. If I go to the rest room, it is back down when I return.

When we went on the TUG cruise, on our flights from Newark to Seattle, we paid for an extra seat, so we, at least , could turn our legs to the side. It was well worth the cost.


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## ScoopKona (May 17, 2009)

I'm 6'6" and hate to fly because of seating. 

I have no luck whatsoever with the gate and ticket people -- I try to make nice with the flight attendants as soon as I enter the plane.

Generally, I'll walk into the back galley, stooping the whole way so I don't hit my head. Then I'll stand in the galley (where there is almost always an attendant.)

The attendant will point out the lavatory, assuming I need to go. I say, "No no, I don't need the restroom, it's just that I'm about to experience [flight-time] of excruciating pain in my knees because the bulkhead and exit rows are full of munchkins. Every minute I can stand up is a blessing from God!"

Sometimes I get first class.  Usually, the attendant will find two seats side-by-side (on an non-full flight) and give me both seats so I can sit in one and stretch my legs in the other. It's worked that way for 3 out of the last 4 trips. (One was packed, and I suffered.)

I totally agree about keeping bulkhead and exit row for the tall -- I didn't ask to be made this tall, and I would prefer it if I was at least six inches shorter. Concerts, flights sporting events -- anything with public seating, really, is an exercise in pain. It's not like I'm one of those fatties who could diet and then be able to fit in the seat. I can't fit because my legs are larger than the woman usually sitting in bulkhead.

It can't be any fun for the person in front of me, either -- they spend the whole flight trying futilely trying to back their seat into my knees. (Even after I tell them they're hurting my knees, they still keep trying. Bastards.)


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## stevedmatt (May 17, 2009)

It seems to me that a lot of airlines are charging a premium for those seats. If possible, just pay the extra to know that you have the extra leg room.

In the past, on flights that I didn't expect to be full, I have booked an aisle and and window for my wife and myself. If no one reserves the middle seat, we have a very relaxing flight. If they do, we say that we made a mistake and offer them the window or the aisle so we can sit together. Maybe not 100% ethical, but if the flight isn't full anyhow...

Essentially, you issue is the same as someone who can't sit in one seat due to their 'width'. The airline will charge them a premium, usually the cost of a second seat. If you need more room, the easiest thing to do is pay for it.


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## Rose Pink (May 17, 2009)

stevedmatt said:


> If you need more room, the easiest thing to do is pay for it.


 
I wonder if an airline would do well if they crammed less seats in the tube.  Less seats=less revenue so seats may have to cost more.  I wonder if people would pay more to fly Comfort Air?  I suppose not since people can buy first class if they really want to and don't.


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## Rose Pink (May 17, 2009)

A short person can still have long legs (short torso).  Just because someone's head doesn't reach the top of the seat doesn't mean their legs are short, too.

As a short person, I can confirm what CatLovers said: short people also find airline seats uncomfortable--very uncomfortable.  So we are talking about degrees of discomfort and pain.  Most everyone is at least uncomfortable and some are in absolute pain.


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## pjrose (May 17, 2009)

stevedmatt said:


> In the past, on flights that I didn't expect to be full, I have booked an aisle and and window for my wife and myself. If no one reserves the middle seat, we have a very relaxing flight. If they do, we say that we made a mistake and offer them the window or the aisle so we can sit together. Maybe not 100% ethical, but if the flight isn't full anyhow...



We always do that, and I don't see anything unethical about it.  If the flight ends up full, people are always happy to have the aisle or window instead of the middle.


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## ScoopKona (May 17, 2009)

stevedmatt said:


> If you need more room, the easiest thing to do is pay for it.



I see it as a medical issue -- these seats are no good for my knees. I fly first class whenever I can, but sometimes it's not practical or possible.

I think there is a big distinction between someone who needs more room because of width and someone who needs more room because of height. Especially when the airlines HAVE THE SEATS to accommodate the physical requirements of tall passengers -- even in coach.

Not all of us are NBA stars, after all.


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## Icarus (May 17, 2009)

Rose Pink said:


> I wonder if an airline would do well if they crammed less seats in the tube.  Less seats=less revenue so seats may have to cost more.  I wonder if people would pay more to fly Comfort Air?  I suppose not since people can buy first class if they really want to and don't.



As with United's Economy Plus?

AA tried it throughout the cabin, it was called MRTC, but it was abandoned quickly. United didn't do it throughout the cabin, and found a way to charge a premium for those seats. It's also a free benefit to anybody with with status in Mileage Plus, or you can purchase it per flight segment if available at time of ticket purchase at or before checkin on their web site, or for a full year.

On UA, you need Premier Exec status (middle tier) to be able to reserve exit row seating. That basically means you fly 50k miles in a calendar year. (or earn 50k EQMs, via promotions like double EQM, or by earning extra EQMs in paid F or business class.)

On a plane like UA's non-PS 757, with Premier Exec status you can reserve row 16, which has a ton more legroom than F on that plane, and since it's the 2nd exit row, you have full recline into the E- seats behind you.

On most of UA's mainline planes (with the international 747 and PS configured 757 being the biggest exceptions) you will get about 36" of pitch if you opt for purchasing Economy+ access (or get it via status or other means). 36" is pretty good for US economy class, and pretty comfortable for most people compared to the normal 31" - 32" pitch.

-David


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## mo1950 (May 17, 2009)

I am 5' 8", my husband is 6' 2", and my legs are longer than his.  I feel for anyone with long legs on any flight.  I blame the airlines for this with their "cattle car" mentality.

At the beginning of our 2003 flight returning from Ireland, my knees were touching the back of the seat in front of me.  Then before the flight took off, the person in front of me laid her seat back all the way (which was her right to do, she paid for that seat.)  There were just a few inches to move my legs a little to the side.  I rode many long hours in this position.  It takes a lot to make me cry, but I did actually cry silently in pain at one point.  I did walk around on one occasion, but for most of this flight, the seatbelt sign was "On."   When we finally arrived in the states, we had to let everyone else off the plane first because I could not rise from my seat.  It took several minutes and exercising before I could disembark.  Any overseas flights in the future, we have decided to use frequent flyer miles for first class tickets.


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## ScoopKona (May 17, 2009)

Icarus said:


> 36" is pretty good for US economy class, and pretty comfortable for most people compared to the normal 31" - 32" pitch.
> 
> -David



Do you know how to calculate how much pitch is required?

I'm one of those people who is "all legs" -- and at my height, that means absolute agony.


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## Icarus (May 17, 2009)

ScoopLV said:


> Do you know how to calculate how much pitch is required?
> 
> I'm one of those people who is "all legs" -- and at my height, that means absolute agony.



Measure your inseam. Divide by pi. Multiple by e. take the square root of the result and add 3.

no idea, sorry. But you can try google. 

36" is a lot, plus you get the space under the seat in front of you.

-David


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## normab (May 17, 2009)

At 5'3" and someone who flies alot (elite status), I feel that I have as much right as anyone else to get an exit row seat.  I have physical issues other than height that make it more comfortable for me.

It's not that I don't understand your plight, but large-girthed people have a problem too.  Maybe they should make special seats for large people (Height  AND/OR Weight) but they would lose space and therefore revenue.

In my opinion it is not much different that going to the theatre--often the seats are very tight and the legroom not much at all.  What can you do?  

Unfortunately if you are not an average sized person, public seating is not designed for you.  I am not saying that is it right or wrong, just that it is.


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## pjrose (May 17, 2009)

ScoopLV said:


> Do you know how to calculate how much pitch is required?
> 
> I'm one of those people who is "all legs" -- and at my height, that means absolute agony.





Icarus said:


> Measure your inseam. Divide by pi. Multiple by e. take the square root of the result and add 3.



:rofl: :rofl: 

Sit on the floor with your back against the wall and measure from the wall to the lower part of your knee?


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## ScoopKona (May 17, 2009)

normab said:


> It's not that I don't understand your plight, but large-girthed people have a problem too.  Maybe they should make special seats for large people (Height  AND/OR Weight) but they would lose space and therefore revenue.



Willi Prader Syndrome aside, I am not particularly sympathetic to the needs of the obese. The obese can eat less, exercise more, and enjoy the benefits of a longer and happier life, along with the ability to fit into airline seats.



normab said:


> In my opinion it is not much different that going to the theatre--often the seats are very tight and the legroom not much at all.  What can you do?
> 
> Unfortunately if you are not an average sized person, public seating is not designed for you.  I am not saying that is it right or wrong, just that it is.



What can I do? Other than have my legs amputated above the knee for no good reason, I can do absolutely nothing. I've been in _first class _seats where my knees hit the seat in front of me.

It's not just airlines, of course -- when I was shopping for a car recently, I had exactly THREE models to choose from. Out of all the cars made worldwide, three have enough legroom so I can drive -- the Nissan Altima, the Scion xB and the Jaguar XK. (Others claim to have better legroom, but they put the pedals so far forward they're undrivable.)

So when people tell me, "I feel your pain." I really want to curtly tell them, "No, you do NOT feel my pain. I don't think you COULD feel my pain. The only reason I'm able to deal with it is that I HAVE been dealing with it for years. If you want an approximation, put your knees in a vice, torque it down until you feel they're about to pop, and then sit there and take it for six hours."

I think other tall travelers will agree -- there is very little empathy for the plight of the very long legged. That's what I perceive, at least, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Everyone who isn't tall seems to think being tall is worth the pain and hassle.

Our society puts a premium on height, but truth be told, most of the time I feel like a freak. I'd gladly take six inches off my legs and give them to a short person. I wouldn't even think twice.


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## "Roger" (May 17, 2009)

If the airlines are going to push the seats as close together as they have, they should immobilize them so that they can't recline.  JMHO


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## Timeshare Von (May 17, 2009)

pjrose said:


> We always do that, and I don't see anything unethical about it.  If the flight ends up full, people are always happy to have the aisle or window instead of the middle.



We do too, at least we used to.  Lately flights are 99% full so we've resorted to side-by-side aisles.


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## Timeshare Von (May 17, 2009)

"Roger" said:


> If the airlines are going to push the seats as close together as they have, they should immobilize them so that they can't recline.  JMHO



And funny that usually the exit row seats do not recline, due to the evacuation issue, if necessary.


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## pgnewarkboy (May 17, 2009)

Tall people already have many natural advantages - cleaner air to breathe, better viewing at movie theaters and other events (why do they alway sit in front of short people), easier access to the carry on luggage compartments on airplanes, easier to see the animals at the zoo ( or crime scene, movie star on street) when a crowd develops to see something special happening, studies show tall people get higher pay on average then short people!  I say enough is enough!   Leave short people alone already and let them sit in peace in their nice spacious exit row.  They are at least entitled to some crumbs once in awhile!


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## rickandcindy23 (May 17, 2009)

Rick is tall and loves getting an exit row for that reason.  I don't necessarily care because I am only 5'5" and my feet barely go under the seat in front of me.  I always feel pretty comfortable on an airplane seat, and so does my MIL, also my height.  

Rick sits in the middle, he reclines, and we don't, so he actually is the only one that reclines his seat.  I don't like to have the seat in front of me reclined, and I don't think it helps me one bit to have mine reclined, so why bother the person behind me.


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## dioxide45 (May 17, 2009)

mo1950 said:


> Then before the flight took off, the person in front of me laid her seat back all the way (which was her right to do, she paid for that seat.)



Actually it wasn't her right to do this. The seat should be in the full upright position until the flight crew has given the go ahead to use portable electronic devices.

I don't care who sits in the exit row seats as long as they are able to open the door in the event of emergency. There honestly should be a test to be taken and certification in order to sit in those seats. Most people in these seats don't have first responder experience and if tested would fail miserably.


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## Icarus (May 17, 2009)

dioxide45 said:


> Actually it wasn't her right to do this. The seat should be in the full upright position until the flight crew has given the go ahead to use portable electronic devices.



hahaha, now you are making up your own variation of the rules.

The 10,000 foot flight level restriction on use of electronic devices has nothing to do with when you can recline your seat. It's ok to recline after take-off. Prior to landing, you can remain reclined until instructed otherwise by the FAs. Usually the instruction is given when the aircraft is in final approach.

-David


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## MuranoJo (May 17, 2009)

I'm tall with long legs.  I personally *don't* like bulkheads as you don't have anywhere to extend your legs, as you can when you have a seat in front of you.  You may have more kneeroom in bulkhead, but it's the not being able to stretch my legs that drives me crazy.


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## dioxide45 (May 17, 2009)

Icarus said:


> hahaha, now you are making up your own variation of the rules.
> 
> The 10,000 foot flight level restriction on use of electronic devices has nothing to do with when you can recline your seat. It's ok to recline after take-off. Prior to landing, you can remain reclined until instructed otherwise by the FAs. Usually the instruction is given when the aircraft is in final approach.
> 
> -David



Regardless of my variation of the rule  , mo1950 indicated that the seat was reclined prior to takeoff. Something that the occupant didn't have the right to do.

There is a nifty trick to prevent the seat in front of you from being reclined. Though I wouldn't use it and won't share it here, it can be done. Most people wouldn't even question a seat not reclining as most of the time the dumb things don't work or they won't lock in the upright position.


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## Icarus (May 17, 2009)

dioxide45 said:


> There is a nifty trick to prevent the seat in front of you from being reclined. Though I wouldn't use it and won't share it here, it can be done. Most people wouldn't even question a seat not reclining as most of the time the dumb things don't work or they won't lock in the upright position.



There was a device that did that, but all the airlines were quick to make them illegal to use on their aircraft, and the wording typically was generic enough to include any device that prevented the seat from operating as intended.

If you used it on my seat, or anything that interfered with my normal seat operation, I would remove it and report you.

Personally, I think we would all be better off if they didn't allow seats to recline as much as they do, but that's the way it is, and it's illegal to interfere with it.

-David


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## bigrick (May 18, 2009)

I'm 6'7" so the person in front of me rarely gets to recline their seat.  One of my knees always holds their seat upright.  Sometimes they understand; sometimes they push all flight.

The best leg room improver for me is to lift the arm rest on the aisle.  Often I can keep my legs in the aisle during the whole movie!

Once we flew to SFO-London on a full flight and had middle-middle seats (we haven't used that agent since!).  The poor guy in front of me tried for 5 hours to recline his seat.  When I went to the bathroom he finally got his chance.  When I returned and sat down, his seat went back the full upright position.

I need to learn how to mileage run on less-crowded flights so I can fly business or better class on long, crowded flights.


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## dioxide45 (May 18, 2009)

Icarus said:


> There was a device that did that, but all the airlines were quick to make them illegal to use on their aircraft, and the wording typically was generic enough to include any device that prevented the seat from operating as intended.
> 
> If you used it on my seat, or anything that interfered with my normal seat operation, I would remove it and report you.
> 
> ...



It wasn't necessarily made illegal. The airlines can't make things illegal. They can make it against their policy for people to use them on their aircraft, but it is far from illegal. Also the burden of proof would be on the airline to prove that the person currently in the seat put it there and not someone sitting in that seat prior to the current flight. Most likely it would just be removed (not easy) and life would go on.

I did indicate in my post that I personally wouldn't use it. I hope your references to “you” in response to my post were generic references and not personally directed at me. 

I agree, reclining seats are really a pain, especially for those who end up in seats that don't recline. My pet peeves on flights are as follows.


People who don't move their seat to the full upright position during landing
People who can't say no to their children so they let them continue to play their hand held Leapster during takeoff.
People who get up to use the lavatory after the crew has indicated not to get up until the fasten seatbelt sign has been turned off and the sign is still very well lit.


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## laura1957 (May 18, 2009)

dioxide45 said:


> Actually it wasn't her right to do this. The seat should be in the full upright position until the flight crew has given the go ahead to use portable electronic devices.
> 
> I don't care who sits in the exit row seats as long as they are able to open the door in the event of emergency. There honestly should be a test to be taken and certification in order to sit in those seats. Most people in these seats don't have first responder experience and if tested would fail miserably.




My SIL is a paramedic, full time paid fireperson and a volunteer fireperson for another fire company.  She has spent quite a few years managing and umpiring girls softball teams.  She is only about 5'1"  and I do not believe there is anyone that I would trust more in any emergency situation


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## gorevs9 (May 18, 2009)

Icarus said:


> Personally, I think we would all be better off if they didn't allow seats to recline as much as they do, but that's the way it is, and it's illegal to interfere with it.
> 
> -David



Maybe it's because I fly a lot of shorter domestic flights, but I haven't found too many Coach seats that recline more than a few inches anyway.

On a different note, on a recent business trip (USAirways), I asked at the gate if I could change my seat to an exit row.  I was told I had to pay an extra cost, yada, yada, yada.  Eventually they gave the exit row seats to some people who were on stand-by.  The problem was that these peoplw were a family of four with two small kids.  Now the flight attendants were scrambling around trying to move these people from the exit row .


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## jfbookers (May 18, 2009)

*Must have hit a nerve!*

I should have thought the thread would stray to overweight people. My sholders are broad so I am sure they are intruding on someone's personal space, however I have little trouble yeilding the armrests and makong myself  as small as possible in that direction. That doesn't hurt.
Thank you for reminding me that the person in front of me may be the 4th person bothered by my height. My knees won't allow much reclining by that person and I have had no experence with passengers who don't understand that knees in the back do not mean a restful flight.
I am sure there are those of almost any height that can handle the 40-60 lb. emergency door so I don't see that as an issue.
I still haven't heard an explanation of why healthy unaccompanied short people still want those seats. Dose your having the right to claim them make it considerate or right?
Reasonably civil so far. Thanks, Jim


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## SueDonJ (May 18, 2009)

jfbookers said:


> I should have thought the thread would stray to overweight people. My sholders are broad so I am sure they are intruding on someone's personal space, however I have little trouble yeilding the armrests and makong myself  as small as possible in that direction. That doesn't hurt.
> Thank you for reminding me that the person in front of me may be the 4th person bothered by my height. My knees won't allow much reclining by that person and I have had no experence with passengers who don't understand that knees in the back do not mean a restful flight.
> I am sure there are those of almost any height that can handle the 40-60 lb. emergency door so I don't see that as an issue.
> I still haven't heard an explanation of why healthy unaccompanied short people still want those seats. Dose your having the right to claim them make it considerate or right?
> Reasonably civil so far. Thanks, Jim



I'm short and don't try to get the exit row seat.  I like a window seat so that I can stay put - buckled, with the seat back straight, not bothering anyone else with nobody bothering me - and read my book or do Sudoko while waiting impatiently to get out of that confined space.  I don't mind flying, it doesn't bother me, but I just look at it as an inconvenient necessity.  Before this thread I wouldn't have given a thought to where a flight attendant might move me if they're seat shuffling, but I promise if I see you hunched over in the aisle looking for some comfort I'll happily offer to give up my exit row seat for your little space.


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## ScoopKona (May 18, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> but I promise if I see you hunched over in the aisle looking for some comfort I'll happily offer to give up my exit row seat for your little space.



Unfortunately, I've never met you or anyone like you on a flight. Usually, the people in bulkhead are swinging their feet like kids on a swing as they watch me head to my medieval torture device. :annoyed: 

I still say a tall person's best bet is with the flight attendants. They are usually  empathetic and best of all, they have the ability to do something about the situation. The person at the gate is only interested in getting people to pay for the exit rows (which I think is ridiculous).


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## ecwinch (May 18, 2009)

jfbookers said:


> I should have thought the thread would stray to overweight people. My sholders are broad so I am sure they are intruding on someone's personal space, however I have little trouble yeilding the armrests and makong myself  as small as possible in that direction. That doesn't hurt.
> Thank you for reminding me that the person in front of me may be the 4th person bothered by my height. My knees won't allow much reclining by that person and I have had no experence with passengers who don't understand that knees in the back do not mean a restful flight.
> I am sure there are those of almost any height that can handle the 40-60 lb. emergency door so I don't see that as an issue.
> I still haven't heard an explanation of why healthy unaccompanied short people still want those seats. Dose your having the right to claim them make it considerate or right?
> Reasonably civil so far. Thanks, Jim



Just not sure what you are suggesting. Is it:

Are you looking to start a movement where short people pledge to voluntarily abstain from taking the exit seat?
Want the airlines to start a policy where tall people are given priority for exit seats?
Or do you want to foster a greater understanding of why short people want to be in the exit row?

And the exit does not have more seat width, so the count of people that would benefit if a short person switched with you is still 3 - you, the person in front of you, and the person behind.

And I think the point was made early. Short people take that seat because it was either the one that was assigned to them OR they want the maximum comfort possible. As another poster mentioned, so some degree the airlines foster that. Most allow their frequent flyer members to reserve those seats early, and some charge extra for the exit row seat.

Does it make it right - sure. Considerate - no. But you make the same value decision when you decide to recline your seat. You are saying to the person behind you, I want to be as comfortable as possible. My comfort is a higher priority than yours. You may rationalize it by saying that I am really tall and need the room. But do you ask that person first if they mind if you recline your seat? Most people do not.

I fly a lot. And I can count on one hand, the number of times I have been asked that question.


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## pjrose (May 18, 2009)

jfbookers said:


> I . . .
> I still haven't heard an explanation of why healthy unaccompanied short people still want those seats.  . . .



I'm 5'7" with longish legs that like to be relatively straight because of a stiff knee.  An aisle to my right will suffice for the stiff knee and will also let me use the bathroom without climbing over anyone.   It's even better if I can sit on the exit, left side of plane, aisle to my right, last exit row so I can recline. Besides the extra knee and wiggle room, the exit reduces my stress a bit because I am confident that I can handle the exit door and would prefer not to have to trust some random person sitting there.  I also want to be right at the exit just in case exiting is necessary.  



SueDonJ said:


> . . . I promise if I see you hunched over in the aisle looking for some comfort I'll happily offer to give up my exit row seat for your little space.



As will I -or I'll tell one of my teenagers to


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## ScoopKona (May 18, 2009)

ecwinch said:


> Just not sure what you are suggesting. Is it:
> 
> Want the airlines to start a policy where tall people are given priority for exit seats?



Yes! And bulkhead as well. 




ecwinch said:


> But you make the same value decision when you decide to recline your seat. You are saying to the person behind you, I want to be as comfortable as possible. My comfort is a higher priority than yours.



I am incapable of reclining the seat because doing so mashes my knees into the seat in front of me even more.

I don't really have a problem with reclining. It would be nice if everyone could. But as long as I'm in the plane, the person in front of me may as well try to move the rock of Gibraltar for all the good pushing the recline button does.

I wish they'd also get rid of that metal bar under the seat.  I'd be able to put my feet under the seat in front of me if not for that damned bar. It's not like people use the space under their seat for storage (all that much, at least).


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## SueDonJ (May 18, 2009)

pjrose said:


> ... As will I -or I'll tell one of my teenagers to



Hahahahahaha - I can see you doing exactly this because I do it myself!  "Oh don't be silly, of course you shouldn't be uncomfortable when there's no need for it, Stephen/Eileen will happily help you out....", and when you look at the kids their mouths are hanging open and you know they want to say no but can't!  Another bonus of being the parent, right?


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## pjrose (May 18, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> Hahahahahaha - I can see you doing exactly this because I do it myself!  "Oh don't be silly, of course you shouldn't be uncomfortable when there's no need for it, Stephen/Eileen will happily help you out....", and when you look at the kids their mouths are hanging open and you know they want to say no but can't!  Another bonus of being the parent, right?



Absolutely.  I'll tell them to get up and move, or move something out of the way, or pick up something......  With someone else's kids I'll at least hint ("It would be helpful if you..... Would you please..... Could you please move that so I don't trip.....")   But  I'm digressing into a parenting post....


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## Pens_Fan (May 18, 2009)

I'm 6'8".  I just suck it up and sit where they put me.

Am I comfortable?  No, but that's the price you pay for not driving.


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## pgnewarkboy (May 18, 2009)

Pens_Fan said:


> I'm 6'8".  I just suck it up and sit where they put me.
> 
> Am I comfortable?  No, but that's the price you pay for not driving.




Congratulations for being a real MAN!  If people want leg room - buy first class or STOP WHINING LIKE A BABY!


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## CatLovers (May 18, 2009)

jfbookers said:


> I still haven't heard an explanation of why healthy unaccompanied short people still want those seats. Dose your having the right to claim them make it considerate or right?



I did give you an explanation  (see post #2).  Now, whether or not you like the explanation is a different issue ....  

Btw Jim, you haven't struck a nerve (as per your title on your last post), at least not for me.  Because I fly so much and have recognized status on most airlines, I am almost always given my seat of choice, so I'm certainly not unhappy with the state of the world as it is.


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## stugy (May 18, 2009)

Bulkhead seats are generally reserved for those with disabilities.  My husband often gets one because he has neuropathy resulting in numbness in his extremities.  Also the bulkhead permits him to move his legs around so he is not as likely to get a bloodclot.  I can sure understand the dilemna of those who are exceptionally tall in regular seats, but honestly, the bulkhead is traditionally reserved for those who are disabled or in some instances aged.
Pat


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## geekette (May 18, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> Congratulations for being a real MAN!  If people want leg room - buy first class or STOP WHINING LIKE A BABY!



Well, Yeah, there are options.  Like when I'm too short to reach something, I can climb on the counter OR go get a step stool OR reach reach whine whine.


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## pjrose (May 18, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> Congratulations for being a real MAN!  If people want leg room - buy first class or STOP WHINING LIKE A BABY!



I see no need for insults.


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## Wonka (May 18, 2009)

In fairness, I suppose the airlines could charge by the square feet or inches occupied.

It seems like the poster could also exhibit some empathy.  I'm sure those with other types of pain issues while flying might find the seats equally uncomfortable.

Perhaps the airlines should post a brief note in their seat assignment selection by the exit row and assign exit rows to folks requiring such seating for medical reasons first, then those above a certain height, etc.  But, I think you'd find a lot of frequent flyers unhappy with such a policy.

As to courtesy, I have to ask the question.  Do you sit in the rear of the theater because of your height out of courtesy to others, or would you offer your front row seat at the Superbowl to the person behind you because of your height?  I think it's just an unreasonable expectation.  ,


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## Born2Travel (May 18, 2009)

Well, I know it won't happen but it would be nice if the airlines would just allow enough space for folks to sit more comfortably.  I don't think I'm THAT large, but when someone reclines the seat in front of me I can't move... I try to not recline my seat unless the person in front of me does and I need to recline mine to gain some breathing space.  I had diffuculty just trying to read a newspaper in the space alotted on a few flights.  We are all miserable on flights these days.  I don't blame the tall people, the short people, the heavy people or the little people.


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## ScoopKona (May 18, 2009)

Wonka said:


> As to courtesy, I have to ask the question.  Do you sit in the rear of the theater because of your height out of courtesy to others, or would you offer your front row seat at the Superbowl to the person behind you because of your height?  I think it's just an unreasonable expectation.  ,



Since more than half of my height is in my legs, when I'm sitting, I'm no more of an obstruction than a normally-proportioned 6-foot person.

But I do sit in the back of theaters. At shows, I utilize a tried and true, "find someplace unobtrusive and stand through the entire concert" strategy. Only once has an usher asked me to move. In that case, I told him that the people next to me were smoking dope, and I'm subject to very stringent drug tests.

Back to airlines: Occasionally the FA will let me hang out in the galley with them through most of the flight. I get along well with flight attendants for some reason. Personally, I'd like to do what John Travolta does on long-hauls to Australia -- sit in the front and _fly the plane._


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## Wonka (May 18, 2009)

ScoopLV said:


> Since more than half of my height is in my legs, when I'm sitting, I'm no more of an obstruction than a normally-proportioned 6-foot person.
> 
> But I do sit in the back of theaters. At shows, I utilize a tried and true, "find someplace unobtrusive and stand through the entire concert" strategy. Only once has an usher asked me to move. In that case, I told him that the people next to me were smoking dope, and I'm subject to very stringent drug tests.
> 
> Back to airlines: Occasionally the FA will let me hang out in the galley with them through most of the flight. I get along well with flight attendants for some reason. Personally, I'd like to do what John Travolta does on long-hauls to Australia -- sit in the front and _fly the plane._



OK.  I'm just being the "Devil's Advocate" here.  But, honestly...my wife much prefers the Exit rows and I'm sure she wouldn't offer her Exit seat unless she better understood the degree of pain you seem to have.  I'll ask her to watch for anyone over 6-0", and forgo her choice in the future.  My wife is an extremely courteous person to others, but what do you think the chances are of that happening?


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## pgnewarkboy (May 19, 2009)

pjrose said:


> I see no need for insults.




Maybe it was insulting.  I think it is a close call.  The problem with the OP is the complaint about short people getting a particular seat.  Now, if the OP thinks leg room should be greater for all on the plane, that is a legitimate complaint that takes into account the perspectives of the many different body types that fly commercial planes.  The OP however is WHINING about what other people get.  That is extremely narcissitic.   Babies are naturally narcissistic because at first they have no understanding that there is a world outside of themselves.  As we mature we learn that the world does not revolve around us.  So on the one hand I can see that you might find my statement about "whining like a baby" to be insulting.  It certainly is a harsh statement.  On the other hand, I think it is completely appropriate to the situation.


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## Rose Pink (May 19, 2009)

I don't hear whining so much as extreme frustration.


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## ScoopKona (May 19, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> The OP however is WHINING about what other people get.  That is extremely narcissitic.



Back before the Americans with Disabilities Act, the handicapped were "whining" about access. (I personally wouldn't call it "whining" though.)

The only way problems get solved is by reasoned frank discourse. Until something is pointed out as a problem, nobody thinks about it.


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## Blues (May 19, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> Now, if the OP thinks leg room should be greater for all on the plane, that is a legitimate complaint that takes into account the perspectives of the many different body types that fly commercial planes.



What I find interesting is the mass psychology of the situation.  I just looked up some typical coach configurations, and the seat pitch is typically around 32".  If the airlines would increase it by say 2", to 34", that would make it so much more comfortable.  That's an increase of about 6%, which means they would have to raise fares by that amount to get the same revenue per plane.  I think most of us would tolerate an increase of say, a $400 ticket to $424 for that comfort.  And yet, apparently no one airline can do it, because their airfares would be above their competition.

I sure wish there was a way to convince the airlines to do this.  I'd pay the extra 6%.

-Bob


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## pgnewarkboy (May 19, 2009)

ScoopLV said:


> Back before the Americans with Disabilities Act, the handicapped were "whining" about access. (I personally wouldn't call it "whining" though.)
> 
> The only way problems get solved is by reasoned frank discourse. Until something is pointed out as a problem, nobody thinks about it.



I frankly don't see the comparison.  The ADA is a  law that recognizes that people who can do a job with appropriate accomodation (not disruptive or overly expensive) should not be discriminated against in the workplace.  The ADA resolves a problem of basic injustice. This conversation is about seats on an airplane and not amercans with disabilities.   Are you saying that tall people are disabled and need special accomodation?  I am sure you don't mean that.  

The OP was saying that sometimes a short person has something (a seat with leg room) that the OP wants.  The OP thinks he should have that seat because he will be uncomfortable without it.  An infant sees a toy that it wants and will take it from another infant until it is taught to be considerate of other people.   Many short people enjoy the extra leg room.  My guess is that almost everyone on a plane enjoys extra leg room and is more comfortable in such a seat.  I can understand that a tall person might be frustrated.  I am frustrated many times by many things that don't go my way.  When I buy an airplane ticket I know that tickets are basically assigned on a first come first serve basis.  That strikes me as a basically fair system.  

OP has many options when reserving an airplane ticket.  He can fly first class.  He could reserve early and ask for a seat in an exit row if it is available. He could fly non-commercial.   There is absolutely no injustice in a short person sitting in an exit row.


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## pjrose (May 19, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> . . . .  The OP thinks he should have that seat because he will be uncomfortable without it.   . . . .



Actually in the original post the OP doesn't say what he thinks he SHOULD  have, he ASKS why a short person might want those particular seats.


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## pgnewarkboy (May 19, 2009)

Blues said:


> What I find interesting is the mass psychology of the situation.  I just looked up some typical coach configurations, and the seat pitch is typically around 32".  If the airlines would increase it by say 2", to 34", that would make it so much more comfortable.  That's an increase of about 6%, which means they would have to raise fares by that amount to get the same revenue per plane.  I think most of us would tolerate an increase of say, a $400 ticket to $424 for that comfort.  And yet, apparently no one airline can do it, because their airfares would be above their competition.
> 
> I sure wish there was a way to convince the airlines to do this.  I'd pay the extra 6%.
> 
> -Bob




I think thats a great idea and a reasonable request.  I read an article in Conde Naste Traveller recently that said there is basically no effective consumer organization advocating for air passengers - even though there may be one or two organizations that claim that function.  Apparently the existing organizations are ineffective.


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## Zac495 (May 19, 2009)

I must say it never occurred to me not to recline my seat. I do have a 6'7" brother in law and can imagine the pain, but I never really thought to offer my seat. I will be more aware in the future.

I do not think the OP was whining in any way. None of us are on a plane with him right now. We don't have to make a decision as to whether or not we should move. 

He brought this up in a *talking* forum and made some of us think about the comfort of others. I honestly think I'm a pretty polite person - I just didn't think reclining was bothersome to anyone. I will ask in the future - Do you mind if I recline a little?. Not sure what I'd do for the poor, tall guy - it's so easy to say I'd take that back seat. But my awareness is raised and I think that was the main point of the post.


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## Hoc (May 19, 2009)

I don't need the extra leg room, but in a regular seat, the seat in front of me is in my face and there is no room to bend over.  So, it's not only leg room offered by the exit rows, but generally more room.  As someone who flies a lot, I appreciate that room unless I am upgraded to first class, which is often a little better.

The real problem with the airlines, who in their attempt to maximize profits have made their seats so small that only anorexic pygmies can be comfortable in them.  So, the answer is either to force the airlines to provide more seat space (both vertically and horizontally), or to expect that, as a person who does not fall within the lowest common denominator of size, you will either have to pay more for a larger seat or be uncomfortable through your flight.


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## ScoopKona (May 19, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> I frankly don't see the comparison.



I was comparing the charge of "whiner" here against the charges of "whiners" leveled at Americans with disabilities prior to ADA passing. I remember a small vocal segment being up in arms that the handicapped shouldn't get any special treatment -- "The able should not have to make concessions for the disabled." Perhaps you don't remember the newscasts prior to passage. It was, at the time, a fairly controversial bill.

Back to seating, I guess the only way some people will understand what it's like is if the seats had five inches less pitch than they do now.

Compared to a "normal" person, my knees stick out five inches further when I am in a sitting position. My knees are also four inches higher up, because that's how my calves are sized.

So once again, I put it to you that while everyone WANTS more room and more comfort, some people NEED more room because they cannot fit into the seats due to genetic differences that they have no control over.

Telling people to pony up an extra $3,000 for first class, charter a private jet for megabucks or seek alternate forms of transportation is, well, not productive.

EDIT: I'll bet the airlines settled on the current pitch because if they made it any smaller, the percentage of people who can't fit would be high enough that a class action suit would be in order. According to "tallpeople.org", 99.8687% of all people are shorter than I am. So, out of 1,000,000 passengers, only 1300 have the kind of problems I have. That's not enough to get people up in arms.


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## PigsDad (May 19, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> I frankly don't see the comparison.  The ADA is a  law that recognizes that people who can do a job with appropriate accomodation (not disruptive or overly expensive) should not be discriminated against in the workplace.  The ADA resolves a problem of basic injustice. This conversation is about seats on an airplane and not amercans with disabilities.   Are you saying that tall people are disabled and need special accomodation?  I am sure you don't mean that.



The ADA is not just for the workplace -- it is law for all public places, including transportation.  It certainly applies on an airline.

I do understand Scoop's point -- before ADA, how many people always took the closest parking spot in front of the grocery, instead of saving it for the elderly or disabled?  Or worried about there being steps to access a building's door?  The ADA made rules / laws to improve access to those that needed it.  And it is not just for those in wheel chairs or obviously physically handicapped -- it also helps those that, from a casual observer, do not look handicapped.  People w/ joint diseases, for example, who can walk, navigate steps, etc. but it is difficult for them.  ADA provided some relief to those who were physically out-of-the-norm.

Now extend that thinking a bit.  A tall person could certainly be considered out-of-the-norm.  Or a little person.  I could certainly see an ADA-type law to make public places more accessible to those people.  Doors needing to be a certain height for tall people, door handles needing to be low enough for little people, access to a minimum seat pitch in all transportation vehicles (which would include planes).

Would this happen?  Probably not anytime soon, but it took years / decades for the ADA to finally get put together and passed into law.  Why not a law for other people who are physically out-of-the-norm?  Especially due to no reason other than genetics.

Just food for thought.

Kurt


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## jfbookers (May 20, 2009)

*Reclining*

Well it stayed civil for most of the time. Yes I aknowledge I have been given some reasons short people seek to sit in the exit rows and you are right,"Because I can" is what I expected in a few cases. As to those sitting there for medical reasons I can only hope it allows you to handle potential exit row duties.
As to bulkhead seats I find them more uncomfortable than regular seats since you can't extend your legs at all in most cases
I had not really addressed my reclining habits, only the frustration my knees must cause the potential recliner in front of me. As a general rule I don't recline. If I am in an exit row I can't and if I am not in an exit row my discomfort prevents me from sleeping so what is the use. If I were a habitual recliner that might bring the number of passengers affected by my lenght to 5.Front,back, and both sides in addition to myself.
I avail myself of the suggedted alternatives when possible but paying for 1st class would severly limit my travels and ablity to pay a mortage. Thanks for the insights and now that I think about it ,it would be nice to start a volentary movement to allocate exit row seating to those who could really use it it rather than those who want it because they can or are unaware of how their choice of seating may affect their fellow passengers. I'm signing off on this thread at this point before I am called any more names or have my manhood challenged. Yours, Jim


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## pgnewarkboy (May 20, 2009)

PigsDad said:


> The ADA is not just for the workplace -- it is law for all public places, including transportation.  It certainly applies on an airline.
> 
> I
> Now extend that thinking a bit.  A tall person could certainly be considered out-of-the-norm.  Or a little person.  I could certainly see an ADA-type law to make public places more accessible to those people.  Doors needing to be a certain height for tall people, door handles needing to be low enough for little people, access to a minimum seat pitch in all transportation vehicles (which would include planes).
> ...



First let me say that I was a little harsh on OP.  We all tend to complain about our life circumstances.   I am not an expert on ADA but I know that it does not cover all  conditions.  My understanding is that it only covers those conditions that materially affect a person's ability to function in important ways.  Maybe the future will yield engineering, design, and manufacturering processes that make most of us more comfortable when flying.  I for one would like lumbar supports in airplane seats and super fast planes that get me to my destination in one-half the time.  If there is enough public uproar, who knows what can be accomplished?  I don't think the problem for tall people is that short people sometimes sit in exit rows.  The problem is with the current design of airplanes.


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## ScoopKona (May 20, 2009)

pgnewarkboy said:


> I don't think the problem for tall people is that short people sometimes sit in exit rows.  The problem is with the current design of airplanes.



Until seat pitch is increased across the board, the problem absolutely IS that short people sit in exit rows. First class aside, there are 12 seats (out of 162) in a typical 737 that I can sit in without having knee problems. http://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data/stats.main?id=96

Unlike OP, I like bulkhead. I can't stretch my legs in ANY coach seat (I guess I'm taller/longer legged than OP), so the extra room for my knees is wonderful.

So, 12 seats where I'll be uncomfortable, but not have to take Prednisone for the swelling. And 150 seats where I'll pretty-much guaranteed to have knee problems if the flight is longer than a couple hours.

When I see someone who is 5'2" in one of those 12 seats, you bet that makes me upset. When someone gets one of those 12 seats simply because they arrived six hours early, spent extra or have the right kind of credit card, that also makes me upset.

Those 12 seats should be made available to those that need it. Like I said earlier, only 1300 people out of a million passengers NEED those seats. So they should get those seats when they fly. The other 998,700 people all WANT those seats, but that shouldn't mean they're entitled.


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## CatLovers (May 20, 2009)

ScoopLV said:


> When I see someone who is 5'2" in one of those 12 seats, you bet that makes me upset. When someone gets one of those 12 seats simply because they arrived six hours early, spent extra or have the right kind of credit card, that also makes me upset.



Unfortunately, you are going to be upset a lot!  Is it really worth using up your mental energy over?  Spending the next few hours seething in your seat is only going to affect you (and possibly your loved ones).  You know that it won't make one iota of difference to the short people who are in your preferred seat, right?  

Wouldn't your energy be better focused elsewhere?  Like perhaps starting a lobby group to make sure that only certain people get the exit row seats?  Or a lobby group to make planes change their seating configurations?


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## AKE (May 20, 2009)

I would think that first-come, first served... if you are paying the same fare as me then you should get the same options and not priority because of height, weight, medical condition (unless life-threatening of course).  A worse scenario is putting me between 2 people who weigh 250 lbs - and more than one airline has tried to have me switch my aisle seat at the last minute for a middle one to accomodate a larger individual.  I think not!  If I reserved early and picked my seat early then I have more of a right to this seat than someone who reserved at the last minute.  But lets take it a step further - I weigh 110 lbs so I should only pay half the fare of someone who weighs 220 lbs. If this logic is followed then sure, I'll take a middle seat -


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## PigsDad (May 20, 2009)

AKE said:


> I would think that first-come, first served... if you are paying the same fare as me then you should get the same options and not priority because of height, weight, medical condition (unless life-threatening of course).


So should that apply to other places as well?  This gets back to the ADA posts.

Take the case of a parking ramp.  Everyone pays the same price to park, but those with handicap permits are allowed to choose from some closer-in spots.  Those people are handicapped not by choice, but by simply being physically out-of-the-norm.  Some of them could certainly park in a normal spot, but it is more convenient for them / causes them less pain to be closer.

So why do you people think it would be so outrageous / "not fair" if the airlines designated the seats with extra leg room to those who are physically out-of-the-norm and sitting in a standard seat would cause them pain?  Again, through no fault of their own (I'm talking height here, not obese people).

The people who advocate "first come, first served" are probably the same ones who also park illegally in the handicapped spots just so they aren't "inconvenienced".  I notice that all the time, as my wife has a legal handicap permit due to medical conditions.

Kurt


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## Wonka (May 20, 2009)

PigsDad said:


> The people who advocate "first come, first served" are probably the same ones who also park illegally in the handicapped spots just so they aren't "inconvenienced".  I notice that all the time, as my wife has a legal handicap permit due to medical conditions.
> 
> Kurt



That's an "apples & oranges" comparison.  Those in handicapped parking have a "sticker" (or should have) which generally requires a physician's letter before issuance.  Yes, I see some abuses...both ways.


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## PigsDad (May 20, 2009)

Wonka said:


> That's an "apples & oranges" comparison.  Those in handicapped parking have a "sticker" (or should have) which generally requires a physician's letter before issuance.  Yes, I see some abuses...both ways.


The only reason it could be considered an "apples & oranges" comparison is that we, as a society, have not yet identified those people who are in the 99+ percentile in height as people who may require special needs in certain circumstances.  There was a time that our society did not identify "handicapped" people (as defined today) as people who required special needs.

You just need to think a bit outside the box to see that this is not an "apples & oranges" comparison.

Kurt


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## AKE (May 20, 2009)

Ok then, I am 5'2" so the normal seat does not fit me properly and causes me serious back problems every time I fly (my head actually gets pushed forward bcause my head does NOT reach the head rest and try flying like this for an extended period of time) BUT based on this logic, my height is a medical condition (which I cannot control).  Given that the seats in first class have much better back support and the head rests fit better, then should I not get a first class seat for the price of economy?  Or, if I am seated between 2 people, one who has on aftershave and the other purfume and I have allergies, I should be once again be allowed a seat in first class at economy prices as there the seats are further apart and I would not be exposed to as many odours.  Lets get real here - the airline seat is based on averages and few people are 'average' so either get used to having to accommodate or pay more for first class. I DO NOT park in the handicapped zone (and I resent this type of implication) but based on the comments here I will never give up a seat in an airplane - first come, first served.


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## icydog (May 20, 2009)

"Roger" said:


> If the airlines are going to push the seats as close together as they have, they should immobilize them so that they can't recline.  JMHO



I agree a thousand percent with this. I am crippled by people lowering their seats on my knees. I don't put my seat back and I don't expect anyone else to either. Of course, my needs are physical hardships are not anyone's problem but mine. And I know people will continue to put their seats back even knowing it hurts their neighbor, but why is that? Why haven't the airlines fixed this problem. People are getting off planes incapacitated by their seats. 

If we fly coast to coast we take stopovers in Huston or Salt Lake City. It gives us a chance to move our legs. Or we use our miles for First Class. We were elite on CO for 6 years until this year. Now we fly in the back in non exit row seats like the rest of the peons (that we are).


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## PigsDad (May 20, 2009)

AKE said:


> Ok then, I am 5'2"



5'2" is nowhere near 3+ sigma in the height distribution.  The discussion is about those who are physically out-of-the-norm, statistically.  



> so the normal seat does not fit me properly and causes me serious back problems every time I fly (my head actually gets pushed forward bcause my head does NOT reach the head rest and try flying like this for an extended period of time) BUT based on this logic, my height is a medical condition (which I cannot control).  Given that the seats in first class have much better back support and the head rests fit better, then should I not get a first class seat for the price of economy?  Or, if I am seated between 2 people, one who has on aftershave and the other purfume and I have allergies, I should be once again be allowed a seat in first class at economy prices as there the seats are further apart and I would not be exposed to as many odours.  Lets get real here - the airline seat is based on averages and few people are 'average' so either get used to having to accommodate or pay more for first class. I DO NOT park in the handicapped zone (and I resent this type of implication)


I did not intend to imply that you, personally, illegally parked in handicapped spots (please re-read my response).


> but based on the comments here I will never give up a seat in an airplane - first come, first served.



And you certainly have that right to do so today.  But then again, 50 years ago I had the right to say "So sorry -- first come, first served" to a person in a wheelchair when parking, when sitting in a theater, etc.  But did that make it morally right?

Kurt


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## CatLovers (May 20, 2009)

PigsDad said:


> But did that make it morally right?



Oh now this is getting good!  Apparently it's a moral decision as to whether one chooses to give up his/her seat to person of above-average height!  Good one, PigsDad, the comparisons should really get going now.  I think the OP might finally get the pot-stirring he said he didn't want!   

Oh dear!  Methinks I am enjoying this discussion far too much.  Clearly I don't have enough work to do.  I really need to get out more.


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## Hoc (May 20, 2009)

icydog said:


> Of course, my needs are physical hardships are not anyone's problem but mine. And I know people will continue to put their seats back even knowing it hurts their neighbor, but why is that?



I know that sitting in a non-reclining seat, given the small amount of space already allocated, causes me physical pain.  If I don't move the recline in my seat back and forth several times over a multi-hour flight, I will wind up with horrible back pain for at least a day or more later.  In addition, if I am lucky enough to be able to sleep sitting up in the plane, if my seat is not reclined I wake up biting on my tongue and cheek so hard that there is a wound, which takes several days to go away.

The answer is that the airlines have packed the seats too tight together in the name of maximizing profit, and the problem is with the inconsiderate airlines, not with inconsiderate passengers who fully utilize the space the airline rents to them (including the recline space), and take advantage of getting the least uncomfortable seat that they can within the price range they have paid.

The "something that needs to be done" is to have an organized group of passengers go to the airlines and get them to change their seat configurations and allow more space.


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## Hoc (May 20, 2009)

I do think that it is appropriate that Frequent Flyer elites have access to the exit row seats before anyone else.  These seats are more comfortable for everyone who sits there, and Frequent Flyers pay the airline more than others on a per annum basis, so they are entitled to have more comfort when they fly.  I think it is also OK to have a waiting list for those seat for non-frequent flyers, where they will pay extra for the seats if they are not taken up by frequent flyers.  If the OP wants one of those seats, he should have the opportunity to pay extra for it and get it, if he registers for the list diligently before the flight.

After all, why should anyone get extra perks from the airline for free just because they say they want it (and need it).  They are seeking extra comfort, and should be required to pay for it, either by flying more, by buying up to First Class, or by paying for a roomier seat.

If the point is that the other seats are unacceptably uncomfortable, then the problem lies with the airlines, and they should be required to change their regular seat configuration.

Or perhaps there should be a couple of rows of larger seats short of Business Class (kind of like United's E+), and those who want more comfort, either because they are too tall or because they weigh too much, should be entitled to buy up to those seats.


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## ScoopKona (May 20, 2009)

Hoc said:


> Or perhaps there should be a couple of rows of larger seats short of Business Class (kind of like United's E+), and those who want more comfort, either because they are too tall or because they weigh too much, should be entitled to buy up to those seats.



But those seats WON'T go to those who need them. They'll be snapped up by lilliputians with disposable income. And then they'll claim "first come first serve." 


Edit: And how do you decide who's "too tall?" "Too tall" sounds as if this is sort of defect on my part. I didn't ask to be made this way.


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## Liz Wolf-Spada (May 21, 2009)

AKE, I am 4'10" and I too have problems with the head rest, (above my head, of course), those neck support pillows really help a lot.
Liz


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## AKE (May 21, 2009)

Yea this is getting really far-fetched.  Unless one is 5'2" (or even less) then they have little idea of how uncomfortable it is to sit in a seat where the bottom of the headrest is at the top on one's head and you are always sitting with your head tilted forward... or even worse, try sleeping in that position on a longer flight. At the same time you cannot put your feet flat on the floor because if you do, then you can't lean against the chairback.  To top it all off, you can never see the TV screen (unless you have an aisle seat)! Maybe we should have a scale where we can rate how far off the standard each person is and then we can allocate seats accordingly.  -


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## Liz Wolf-Spada (May 21, 2009)

AKA, I forgot about those other issues: Travel Smith has a great little footstool I use all the time. It folds up and is lightweight. I have back problems and it really makes a difference. I forgot about the not seeing the TV and we are going to Hawaii and I don't even remember what seats we have. I should check, I probably picked the window seat, as I like to lean against the side, but you're right, I can never see the movie that way.
Liz


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## rickandcindy23 (May 21, 2009)

ScoopLV said:


> But those seats WON'T go to those who need them. They'll be snapped up by lilliputians with disposable income. And then they'll claim "first come first serve."
> 
> 
> Edit: And how do you decide who's "too tall?" "Too tall" sounds as if this is sort of defect on my part. I didn't ask to be made this way.



Ahhh.....a Gulliver's Travels reference.  Love that one!  

I don't know what the answer is for the taller people on planes, except I will feel funny about sitting in one from now on.  We are offered them often enough to get them more than our fair share of the time.  Rick is six feet tall, but Mom and I are short.  

The check-in people always notice Rick's fire department ID, and I think that is why they offer the seats to us so often.  I could manage the door, easily, but Rick has training that would make him very valuable in an emergency.


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## PigsDad (May 21, 2009)

rickandcindy23 said:


> The check-in people always notice Rick's fire department ID, and I think that is why they offer the seats to us so often.  I could manage the door, easily, but Rick has training that would make him very valuable in an emergency.


I'm glad to hear Rick gets offered the exit row often.  When it comes right down to it, having a trained fireman in the exit row is a huge asset to the whole plane.  

As to the original topic, I like the way United has the E+ seats.  They usually have enough so that it is not just the frequent fliers that get them -- other passengers are given the option to upgrade for a modest fee (nowhere near a business-class upgrade fee).  I wish more airlines would offer that choice.

Or better yet, maybe airline seats could just consist of a big block of memory foam and they would perfectly conform to each individual's body!  Ok, I'm dreaming now... :rofl: 

Kurt


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## Hoc (May 21, 2009)

ScoopLV said:


> Edit: And how do you decide who's "too tall?" "Too tall" sounds as if this is sort of defect on my part. I didn't ask to be made this way.



The same way you decide if someone weighs too much.  They didn't ask to be made that way, either, and it's not any defect on their part, but they are certainly just as uncomfortable with seats that don't fit them.  Why should one genetic condition get special privileges while the other does not?


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## Hoc (May 21, 2009)

AKE said:


> Yea this is getting really far-fetched.  Unless one is 5'2" (or even less) then they have little idea of how uncomfortable it is to sit in a seat where the bottom of the headrest is at the top on one's head and you are always sitting with your head tilted forward... or even worse, try sleeping in that position on a longer flight.



Not true.  I am about 5'10", and I had the same problem with AA's old business class seats.  Always wound up getting to Europe, sleep deprived, with a sore neck that lasted for days.


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## Hoc (May 21, 2009)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I don't know what the answer is for the taller people on planes, except I will feel funny about sitting in one from now on.



OK, I've just gotta say it.  I would feel funny about sitting in a taller person on a plane, too.


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## ScoopKona (May 21, 2009)

Hoc said:


> The same way you decide if someone weighs too much.  They didn't ask to be made that way, either, and it's not any defect on their part, but they are certainly just as uncomfortable with seats that don't fit them.  Why should one genetic condition get special privileges while the other does not?



Poppycock. The morbidly obese got that way one calorie at a time. And, they can _do something about it._ 

I see no reason why they shouldn't pay extra if they need two (or more) seats.


So, while I think a determination can be made as to who's "too fat" (not being able to strap oneself in would be a good yardstick), "too tall" implies that tall people can do something about their predicament.


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## PigsDad (May 21, 2009)

AKE said:


> Unless one is 5'2" (or even less) then they have little idea of how uncomfortable it is to sit in a seat where the bottom of the headrest is at the top on one's head and you are always sitting with your head tilted forward...


I think I do have an idea.  I'm 6'5" and the headrest hits me square in my shoulder blades, causing me to hunch over.  Of course, the top of the headrest is way below my neck, so there is no way to give my head any support if I wanted to rest.  I can't scrunch down, because my knees are wedged into the seat in front of me.  At least in a shorter person's case they can use a pillow to add support behind the neck.  In my case, there is nothing to lean the pillow against!

I would much rather be 5'2" than 6'5" in an airline seat any day of the week (and twice on Sunday!).

Kurt


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## Rose Pink (May 21, 2009)

Maybe we should all just stand up.


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## Bwolf (May 21, 2009)

Maybe all the too tall and too short people should stay off airplanes to make the flight more enjoyable for the rest of us.


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## Hoc (May 21, 2009)

ScoopLV said:


> Poppycock. The morbidly obese got that way one calorie at a time. And, they can _do something about it._



Prejudice and ignorance usually do go hand in hand.  Mildly fat people usually are that way due to their eating habits, but the morbidly obese usually are that way due primarily to genetics (such as an ultra-slow metabolism, or some other hormonal issue).


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## AKE (May 21, 2009)

I think airlines should charge extra for people who aren't size-challenged - they could make a bundle as the seats almost fit no-one and so almost all passenegers would pay for some reason (too short, too tall, too heavy, too thin, etc etc.).  -  Just thought of another short-related issue on planes.  Does anyone who is not short realize how hard it is to put up hand-luggage in the overhead compartment (almost impossible on the larger planes due to the ceiling height), or even worse, try to get it down without having it fall on you?  Yes most of the time I do find someone who can lift it up / down for me but sometimes I seem to be in rows with all short people and no-one (not even the flight attendant) can lift the stuff up to the overhead bins, and even more so nowadays as people are bringing on more and more, and heavier, hand luggage.  Should just stop flying and take the train instead.


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## Passepartout (May 21, 2009)

Rose Pink said:


> Maybe we should all just stand up.



Hush up. If the airlines see this, they'll probably try. "See how many they can get in Strap Hanger Class"- I can see the advertising now- Fly Cheap- Stand! Pay extra for a seat? Hell No! Too Tall, Too Short, No Problem!

Jim Ricks


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## ScoopKona (May 21, 2009)

Hoc said:


> Prejudice and ignorance usually do go hand in hand.  Mildly fat people usually are that way due to their eating habits, but the morbidly obese usually are that way due primarily to genetics (such as an ultra-slow metabolism, or some other hormonal issue).



The morbidly obese are usually that way because they spend 99% of their day sedentary and eat thousands of calories each day: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090325162634.htm

And, as I've said before -- they can do something about their problem. It might take awhile, but the health benefits are certainly worth the effort. More comfort in an airline seat would probably be the least of my concerns if I had a BMI of 49.


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## Hoc (May 21, 2009)

ScoopLV said:


> The morbidly obese are usually that way because they spend 99% of their day sedentary and eat thousands of calories each day: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090325162634.htm



A classic example of confusing cause and effect.  I have seen some of them try to walk.  It is incredibly difficult, and a horrible strain for them to climb up a step or two.


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## Wonka (May 21, 2009)

PigsDad said:


> The only reason it could be considered an "apples & oranges" comparison is that we, as a society, have not yet identified those people who are in the 99+ percentile in height as people who may require special needs in certain circumstances.  There was a time that our society did not identify "handicapped" people (as defined today) as people who required special needs.
> 
> You just need to think a bit outside the box to see that this is not an "apples & oranges" comparison.
> 
> Kurt



Let's see...your thought process is "thinking of the box", and those disagreeing with you "isn't"?  

Defining those whose "handicap" would require exit row seating would be almost impossible.  There are many others with just as valid a reason...maybe a phobia, or whatever.  Parking designated as "handicapped parking" is a legal designation.  It's that simple.

If the airlines choose to change their policy to allow exit row seats only to those with physician certificates, that'd be fine with me.  

Do you suppose everyone with long legs has the same pain threshold?

If tall people are to be considered handicapped, so should the short and medium.  

This is one of those issues that's impossible to get a consensus.  To suggest, it's rude for a shorter person to utilize an exit row on an airplane is far too one-sided. 

I would suggest the best alternative is for the poster simply to politely ask others to "switch" seats after explaining his problem and pain.  He might be surprised with the result.  If someone told me it was simply a problem of their height, it wouldn't fly.  But, if they asked nicely explaining that they experience excruciating pain I most probably would give them my Exit row seat (if I ever had one).


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## Rose Pink (May 21, 2009)

Passepartout said:


> ...  "See how many they can get in Strap Hanger Class"...Jim Ricks


 
Maybe we could wear those blow-up inner tubes used for swimming to protect our personal space and keep other passengers from getting too close.  Of course, then it would be difficult getting through the restroom door.


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