# Keys Without Fees



## cwgolfer (Nov 9, 2012)

New to this site.  Don't know where to post this question.  Has anyone had a dealing with Keys without Fees?  Claim to take over your deed and you become a member of their system and can rent properties for half of going price.  They want one year of maintenance fees paid up front to cover all paperwork.  Doesn't sound legit to me.  Any help appreciated.


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## AwayWeGo (Nov 9, 2012)

*Sounds Bogus To Me.*

​


cwgolfer said:


> New to this site.  Don't know where to post this question.  Has anyone had a dealing with Keys without Fees?  Claim to take over your deed and you become a member of their system and can rent properties for half of going price.  They want one year of maintenance fees paid up front to cover all paperwork.  Doesn't sound legit to me.  Any help appreciated.


Over & over we get "has anyone" questions about timeshare-related schemes & deals that rarely pan out & practically always turn out to be hornswoggles & bamboozles.  

The whole timeshare scene is rife with rip-offs & scams, & the schemers change names quickly & frequently (to stay 1 jump ahead of the law), so the chances are strong that this is just 1 more of the same.  

In the unlikely that there is anything to this other than just 1 more attempt to bilk timeshare owners out of their cash, let us know. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## pacodemountainside (Nov 9, 2012)

Catchy name.

Say your MF are $600 and you give today. They use for  "expenses".

On January 1, 2013 $600+ MF have to be paid.

Where do they get the cash to pay?

Say they wing it  and rent to you for 1/2 price for $300. They are still $300 in the hole.


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## Rent_Share (Nov 9, 2012)

There is no physical address or phone number on the website, 
The Web Site was created 6 Months ago the address listed is a third party that registered the domain on their behalf.



> We are only accepting Wyndham point-based deeds currently.
> Deeds must be owned free and clear.
> Maintenance fees must be kept current during transfer.


 
Google finds them in Irvine with "BBB ACCREDITATION"  

And some shill reviews on other sites


Domain Name: KEYSWITHOUTFEES.COM

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
Point Pay hq2bd9p92m8@networksolutionsprivateregistration.com
ATTN KEYSWITHOUTFEES.COM
care of Network Solutions
PO Box 459
Drums, PA 18222
US
570-708-8780


Record expires on 21-May-2013.
Record created on 21-May-2012.


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## LannyPC (Nov 9, 2012)

cwgolfer said:


> They want one year of maintenance fees paid up front to cover all paperwork.



That sounds very fishy to me.  Let's say I own at a resort that has MFs of $800.  Another person owns at a resort that has MFs of $1000.  Why would I have to pay "only" $800 to "cover all paperwork" while the other guy would have to pay $1000 to "cover all paperwork"?  Why a difference of $200 to "cover all paperwork" for 2 different owners?


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## csxjohn (Nov 9, 2012)

LannyPC said:


> That sounds very fishy to me.  Let's say I own at a resort that has MFs of $800.  Another person owns at a resort that has MFs of $1000.  Why would I have to pay "only" $800 to "cover all paperwork" while the other guy would have to pay $1000 to "cover all paperwork"?  Why a difference of $200 to "cover all paperwork" for 2 different owners?



Just one reason why this smells fishy.  

As mentioned earlier, how can they rent for 50% off and continue in business?

I'd stay away.

Look into selling your TS and renting from others if thats what you'd like to do.

How to sell.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44


Units that members are seeking now.

http://tug2.com/timesharemarketplac...ram=&Week=&Year=&Bedrooms=&Bathrooms=&Sleeps=


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## geekette (Nov 9, 2012)

cwgolfer said:


> New to this site.  Don't know where to post this question.  Has anyone had a dealing with Keys without Fees?  Claim to take over your deed and you become a member of their system and can rent properties for half of going price.  They want one year of maintenance fees paid up front to cover all paperwork.  Doesn't sound legit to me.  Any help appreciated.



"Take over your deed" is the part that rubs me wrong.  Rentals for  "half of going price" is rather nebulous as well.

Please pass this up.  If you want to rent other resorts, you can do so without their help.


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## grandschnauzer (Nov 14, 2012)

*The going rate*

What makes anyone think the going rate will be based on the MF? First is the #1 rule in business: Make a profit. If I tried to rent my points for the MF, it's certainly not be worth my time.

KEYS state on its calculator page it has an avg rate of $99/day. It doesn't say whether that is the retail or the wholesale (50% off) price. If I rented, say Bonnet Creek, 2Br Dx, (189k points), at this rate, I'd gross $693. Thats $3.67 per 1K points. Anyone pay this much in MFs?

Let's assume KEYS is a Platinum organization and can get a 50% discount 60 days out. $7.34/K sounds much better. Of course you run out of free guest certificates eventually and only get $594 for that week. $ 6.29 leaves a modest profit.

Oh! We forgot about overhead.

Can they really offer a 50% Discount?


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## cwgolfer (Nov 16, 2012)

Anyone heard of this company?  Any feedback?


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## cwgolfer (Nov 16, 2012)

Thanks for the info. I sent them an email politely declining their offer.


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## LannyPC (Nov 23, 2012)

I noticed now they have Google-type ads on Red Week.


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## MaxRep (Dec 26, 2012)

*Keys Without Fees = Point Potential = Bid Your Inn = Vertice Vacations*

From the description of what they do, it seems there may be a way for this business model to work *for them*.

They "take over the deed" which means you are giving them your deed.  And to get away from paying maintenance fees, people give away or sell off their deeds for a few hundred bucks all the time.

Let's say for example that they do this with 10 people.  They then take the 10 deeds which they've gotten for free, and sell 7 of them on average for $20/thousand points = $2,000/hundred thousand points.  

Figuring those 7 deeds have an average deed size of 308,000 points, they're making more than $43,000 in Profits on those 7 deeds!  Now make it a real business and do this with 100 people.  Real quickly they're making many hundreds of thousands in net profits!  Awfully nice of them to rent back to you at just half the going rental price!  

The remaining 3 deeds they would keep and utilize the points from those deeds to rent back (at half price!) to the owners who are going to want to rent from them.  

My guess is this ratio or something close to it will work just fine as not that many owners will actually do very many rent backs.  I know several timeshare owners who don't use their timeshares for years at a time.

Between the profits generated from selling deeds which cost them nothing, and the "half price" rentals, they can easily afford the maintenance fees on the handful of deeds they keep.

Remember, points are points, once you have them they are good anywhere. All they need to do is rent out enough to cover the maintenance fees on the few deeds they keep, and this is a very profitable business.

This is all just theoretical however Keeping in mind their entire business group of companies (Keys Without Fees = Point Potential = Bid Your Inn = Vertice Vacations), it's a business model that suddenly makes the sales pitch make sense... not for you, but for them.

On a side note; are they even still in business?  I notice the keyswithoutfees.com website isn't coming up?  Maybe it's not working out so well after all.
*
Regarding the comments by AwayWeGo: *

It's interesting you mention this as... Keys Without Fees = Point Potential = Bid Your Inn = Vertice Vacations.  These companies are all owned by the Beachum brothers, Brandon and Ryan Beachum.  Jay Yadon appears to also be connected as an owner within these companies.

This is all easy to see, among other places, at: corporationwiki.com 

http://www.corporationwiki.com/California/Irvine/point-potential-inc/67064826.aspx

Just start clicking on all the various company names and individual name links there and it's easy to put the picture together.  



AwayWeGo said:


> ​Over & over we get "has anyone" questions about timeshare-related schemes & deals that rarely pan out & practically always turn out to be hornswoggles & bamboozles.
> 
> The whole timeshare scene is rife with rip-offs & scams, & the schemers change names quickly & frequently (to stay 1 jump ahead of the law), so the chances are strong that this is just 1 more of the same.
> 
> ...


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## pacodemountainside (Dec 26, 2012)

My pregnant  question to you is where  does any one sell  Wyndham points for $2K / 100,000.

As you mentioned points are points. Sure there are temporary supply and demand imbalances   due to ARP or very low MF  but generally people that own at these resorts can sell on their own for a couple bucks.

A quick look at ebay  is all over the place. Some British chap is trying to sell  105K  CWA for 10 grand.  There is 300K  BC with no bids,  opening bid $399 that expires in about 9 hours. Tons with  no or token bids.

I  don't think these guys can sell 308K Wyndham points  for $6K any more than the scammers that cold call me.


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## MaxRep (Dec 26, 2012)

Paco, you have just too much common sense!  Unfortunately many of our brethren out there don't have nearly as much common sense as you do.  

The sad reality is that Point Potenial/Vertice Vacations (and Keys Without Fees is owned by the same person/people) sells Wyndham deeds at $20/thousand points every day of the week.  With their fleet of telemarketers hitting on a prospect base of 900,000 Wyndham owners, it's not hard to find people gullible enough to buy more points at this price.

Think about it, just as you did, these people originally bought at $50/thousand or $100/thousand or even $150/thousand.  It's not a hard sell to convince somebody they are getting a great deal at $20/thousand when they originally bought at $100/thousand.

As you can see from their BBB page, they are a 35 person company.  You don't pay for the office space, overhead, the salaries of 35 people, and all the money going to the owners, unless you're making a lot of money.




pacodemountainside said:


> My pregnant  question to you is where  does any one sell  Wyndham points for $2K / 100,000.
> 
> As you mentioned points are points. Sure there are temporary supply and demand imbalances   due to ARP or very low MF  but generally people that own at these resorts can sell on their own for a couple bucks.
> 
> ...


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## tschwa2 (Dec 26, 2012)

Well if that's the case, they could let go the workers who do consultations and call the owners trying to get the timeshares for free and pay a few thousand dollars to buy a bunch off ebay and just keep the fleet of telemarketers who sell the wyndham points.  That way they wouldn't have to keep up "the club" and pay the MF's on any points and the guest certificates for owners who want 2-3 day stays and generally wouldn't have to keep the members happy and they wouldn't have to lose 50% from each rental.


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## Sailboarder65 (Dec 27, 2012)

I have been contacted too.  I Googled Point Potential and Bidd Your Inn and it looks like they change names every few months to keep ahead of bad reviews.

Look here:  http://www.redweek.com/forums/messages?thread_id=17706
and http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148987

Here is a employment ad - http://youferral.com/jobpost/show/4179170-bid-your-inn-seeks-top-sales-reps-orange-county

They claim to have a 3 year partnership with Orbitz and bookit.com and pay their salespeople 70 to 130K per year!  Must be tons of profits in whatever they do.


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## LannyPC (Dec 27, 2012)

MaxRep said:


> With their fleet of telemarketers hitting on a prospect base of 900,000 Wyndham owners, it's not hard to find people gullible enough to buy more points at this price.



Is Keys Without Fees in any way connected to this company:

http://http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167495

They seem to have the same MO.

But I will raise the question that I did previously in the aforementioned thread.  Where does this company in question get the names and phone numbers of the Wyndham owners?

In the aforementioned thread, there was sparse reference made to "Oh, this information is made available in Public Deeds."  However, these companies who make these phone calls seem to be armed with more information about Wyndham owners than are actually disclosed in Public Deeds.

Just as an interesting side point (at least I found it interesting), the person who attempted to answer my question in the aforementioned thread did not say "We *get* the information from Public Records."  He/She said that they are *available* in Public Records.

Besides, if KWF is located in Orange County, how does it access information of someone who owns in, say, Hawaii when the public records are usually kept in Hawaii?


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## Sailboarder65 (Dec 27, 2012)

LannyPC said:


> http://http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167495



The link you posted appears to not work.


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## pacodemountainside (Dec 27, 2012)

Sailboarder65 said:


> The link you posted appears to not work.



You have to delete extra    http://   at beginning!


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## Sailboarder65 (Dec 27, 2012)

Yes, same company.  Same rebuttal type posts with spiritual quotes by owner named Brandon Beachum, defending what he does.  Looks like he now goes by Wen D in posts for OOC, and claims to be an employee where he doesn't have to ability to answer the tough questions that are posed to him. 

In the employment ad I posted a link to, they said they were moving to a new 20,000 sq. ft. office in Orange.  Look at the address on the BBB for Optimal Owner Care!  Website is the same, no company info, who works there, Orbitz partner and bookit.com, etc. 

They have changed names several times but with the internet, message boards and public record, not too hard to connect the dots.  The only business that has to keep changing its name, address and time in business is one that is not doing honest business to stay ahead of the law.  Problem is, even though they have weekly Conversations With God meetings, they will all end up in a heap of problems.


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## Sailboarder65 (Dec 27, 2012)

More good info I found today.  http://www.ripoffreport.com/optimal-owner-care/resorts/internet-internet-341d2.htm

They keep saying that their BBB record is great, but anyone who has owned a business knows that if you pay them, they hide all complaints.  Yelp does this as well.  Plus, when you change your name as a DBA and register with BBB, they use the DBA as a new business which erases all the old complaints.  Owners names are Brandon Beachum and Ryan Beachum and Jay Yadon and are building quite a reputation for themselves that will follow them where ever they go and whatever they try to do.


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## pacodemountainside (Dec 27, 2012)

The simplest way to deal with  questionable "cold callers" is simply say  as seller my local Title/Escrow/Closing company and/or attorney  will handle  ALL the paper work and  money.

If a scammer will vaporize. If legitimate, will be happy that an independent third party is holding money and they will get paid if they preform!

Don't fall for pitifull response that  is not the way we do business or TSs  even though deeded are not really real estate and our rules apply!


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## karyl3#1 (Mar 15, 2013)

cwgolfer said:


> New to this site.  Don't know where to post this question.  Has anyone had a dealing with Keys without Fees?  Claim to take over your deed and you become a member of their system and can rent properties for half of going price.  They want one year of maintenance fees paid up front to cover all paperwork.  Doesn't sound legit to me.  Any help appreciated.



did you get a answer.  they told me no more maintance fees now.


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## csxjohn (Mar 15, 2013)

karyl3#1 said:


> did you get a answer.  they told me no more maintance fees now.



Did you read each post in this thread?  People come here looking for advice and in cases like these they get excellent advice.

Still they insist on believing the thieves instead of those who have been through this time and time again.

That is how these companies thrive, people want to believe there's an easy fix, they want to believe the lies and close their eyes to the evidence.

Please try to get rid of your timeshare yourself before falling for an up front fee company.  There is a lot of info here on TUG to help you.  One of the best is to get rid of it right here.


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