# Poll: Would you “sell” your legacy weeks to VAC (i.e. SpinCo) for DC Trust Points?



## cbdmvci (Jul 11, 2012)

Assume VAC wanted to simplify its business model by “buying” your legacy weeks for Trust Points.

_(I believe the moderators have the ability to turn the poll below into an actual vote counting poll … but I’ll leave that up to them.)_

Assume that it takes X DC Points to stay in your legacy week in your legacy season for its full seven days.
(N.B. Not skim amount, *X=full week stay at home resort* amount.)

*Would you sell your legacy week:*

__for .9  times X?
__for X?
__for 1.1 times X?

More or less than that?

__for some figure even less than .9 times X?
__for some figure only more than 1.1 times X?

__never, not for any Trust Point offer

*Remember, if you sold at X:*

You’d lose little or nothing toward your ability to reserve at your legacy resort in your legacy season?
You’d be gaining a lot of the flexibility offered by the DC *at no cash or skim cost*.
You’d be getting a ton of Trust Points at a tremendous discount off the price new VAC DC Trust Points buyers are paying.
*But, you’d probably be paying substantially higher MFs every year from now on.* 

_I’ll provide my own response to this poll in a separate reply.  Of course, my reply is based on my own particular circumstances.  As will be yours._


*Thanks to the Moderators to turn this into a real calculating poll at the top of the page.  Even if you have expressed your opinion informally, please now register your opinion in the statistical poll.  Overwhelming response in first full day of the informal poll was: would never sell!  Personally, I still disagree, but I'll let the poll run awhile before presenting my reasoning in more detail.*


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## cbdmvci (Jul 11, 2012)

*I would sell in a minute.*

I would sell my legacy weeks for X, maybe even .9 times X.

Okay, I'll vote ... .9 times X.

Here are my particular circumstances in a nutshell.

My daughter and my son both have remarkably successful families and careers.  They each own their own vacation properties already.  (How interested would my son be in my BPT Week when he and his family own a vacation apartment on the beach in Miami?)  So, IMO, bequeathing my timeshare weeks to them could be conceived as more of a burden than a benefit.  Bequeathing the flexible DC Trust Points is an asset that they will be able to more easily evaluate and use.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 11, 2012)

I would not sell my deeded legacy weeks for a trust interest. With a deed there is some value. With trust points there is little to no value other than taking vacations. Deeded weeks also have voting rights. Trust interests are voted by the trust manager, who will always side with Marriott's voting preferences. I'll hang onto my deed and my voting rights. Although at some point in time, deeded voting rights become a moot point when the trust manager controls enough votes to allow Marriott complete control over the resorts. 

I would look for the option to convert legacy weeks into a trust interest somewhere down the road. Marriott won't have to buy back the legacy week, they'll just convert it for a price. Chances are they'll want owners to buy an additional trust point package and they'll include the "conversion" for free. They may offer an option to pay a fee to convert current legacy weeks to a trust interest.

I don't look for this to happen until Marriott feels they've exhausted all the potential income from the enrollment fee. When they feel they need to churn more profits from exisiting owners is when you'll see the conversion option offered.


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## Michigan Czar (Jul 11, 2012)

I would not sell my legacy Maui weeks for DC points, even at 1.1 times X. I feel I have one of the best deeds in the Marriott system and it is more valuable as a deed vs. DC points.


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## pfrank4127 (Jul 11, 2012)

I would sell for x, assuming they had some re-sale options in place for DC points.


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## GregT (Jul 11, 2012)

Michigan Czar said:


> I would not sell my legacy Maui weeks for DC points, even at 1.1 times X. I feel I have one of the best deeds in the Marriott system and it is more valuable as a deed vs. DC points.



I feel the same way -- would not sell the weeks for DC points.


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## jont (Jul 11, 2012)

*I would not convert*

I would not convert any of my weeks. The DC as it is today offers me the most flexibility. I like that I can use my weeks, lock-off and trade thru II, convert to points and rent additional points if needed or even rent out my weeks or points. For me it works just fine.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 11, 2012)

If Marriott is buying?  Sure, I'd seriously consider any offers for a permanent exchange of Weeks for DC Points!  But I am fairly certain that if ever it's an option it would be me paying Marriott for the "privilege" and not Marriott buying, so they'd have to make it a very attractive offer of at least X.5.

I understand what some of you are talking about as far as the "power" of deeded ownership but I think that at this point and going forward, that power as it relates to voting rights at our home resorts is an illusion.  Owners don't vote in majority numbers anyway, and as more and more existing Weeks are conveyed to the Trust we're losing whatever little influence we may have had over Marriott.

That deed power as it relates to perpetual ownership and being able to pass our ownerships on to our heirs is more substantial, more protected from whatever Marriott could or might do to try to erode any deed powers. But DC Trust Points purchases are also deeded in the same way, for what it's worth.  IMO, the "power" to pass our Weeks or Points to our kids isn't all it's cracked up to be - I'd much prefer an end date so that we wouldn't be saddling our kids with possibly unwanted financial obligations.


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## EKniager (Jul 11, 2012)

At this point, I would not give up my week.


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## BocaBoy (Jul 11, 2012)

Michigan Czar said:


> I would not sell my legacy Maui weeks for DC points, even at 1.1 times X. I feel I have one of the best deeds in the Marriott system and it is more valuable as a deed vs. DC points.



I agree.  I also would not sell my Maui weeks, especially since each week would increase my maintenance fees by 50% (an extra $1K per week).  Even if the maintenance fees were the same, I would not sell unless there was a good market for re-selling trust points and I was getting at least 1.33X, which would be about 10,000 points.  I might consider selling Ko Olina for a lesser premium.  My Las Vegas 3BR is way too valuable as a trader in II to convert it to points, since we seldom stay there and normally trade through II.


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## tjkahn (Jul 11, 2012)

If I converted my Timber Lodge platinum ski to points, converting at X would mean a $2,000 MF, almost double what I pay for my deeded week.  And what would I be gaining?  I'll never pay a skim to stay at my home resort, I'll just stay there in the season I own.  The no fee for lock-offs I got with my $595 is huge.  In 2013, I'm staying in the studio for a week with my daughter up to President's day (and I used 225 of the 800 bonus points to reserve the Sunday night before President's day - which is part of a platinum plus week).  I traded the 1 BR for Orlando in March, and got an AC from II.  So I got way more bang for my buck using my legacy week without converting to points.

I think if you like your home resort, the option to convert your ownership would be of little interest.  Plus, I agree with the previousl post - there will be all kinds of opportunities in the future as Marriott tries to come up with ways to get more revenue.  There will be conversion oppotrunities, and I'm convinced many "limited time" offers to convert resale weeks (which I don't own, but I'm sure they're coming).


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 11, 2012)

tjkahn said:


> If I converted my Timber Lodge platinum ski to points, converting at X would mean a $2,000 MF, almost double what I pay for my deeded week.  And what would I be gaining?



Ditto for me. I double my units because I trade each side of my lockoffs for 2BRs which results in me having four 2BR weeks. This is for both of my weeks and this is ignoring the purchase price needed for doubling the points for four 2BR's instead of two!

Current
Maintenance Fees - $2,600
Lock-off fees - $160
Trade fees - $476
*Total Current Annual Expense - $3,236*

Points - 16,900
*Maintenance Fee Point Expense - $6,929*

Maybe I am slow but that looks like a really bad deal. I end up ahead even if I ignore needing points for four 2 BR's and only go with the fees for the two units which is 8,450 points. So four units right now is cheaper than switching to two units with Points. This means I get the benefit right now of partial stays because I don't have to stay the full week and it's still cheaper. This shoots down the entire notion of partial stays being a benefit UNLESS you want many very short stays which I don't need.

Lets see the annual expense comparison if I only stay Fri & Sat night booking the full weeks now or using the points per the hypothical of the OP. Since this is weekend only and I currently have 4 weekends we will look at the points for the two units since that is all I will receive. The current actual annual expense is the same as above.

Current - $3,236
   This is $404.50 per night and way too expensive. Certainly the points have to be cheaper...

Points (8,400) - $3,444
   We received 8,450 points for the two units and it cost 8,400 to stay for the eight nights so the cost is only based on the 8,400. So I pay less money right now for four full weeks than it would cost in points for just staying Fri & Sat night. Staying Sun thru Thu for the four weeks costs even more than Fri&Sat (8,500).


Points are very convenient and make alot of sense for those that have a large travel budget but they are very expensive.

Sorry for the rant, for the sake of the poll I have to go with:

X never, not for any Trust Point offer

Upping the points given cant equate to anything because that just ups your maintenance fee.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 11, 2012)

I would definitely sell if:

1. I got the number of points for my unit equal to the number it takes for someone else to reserve it via points (not the skim number).  The future is points, not weeks.  Every enhancement from now on will be to the Destination Points program.

2. Marriott implemented their much-rumored point buy back program so that I would not saddle my children with inherited maintenance fees after I am gone.  The salesman at the presentation here at Barony Beach insisted that Marriott still plans to implement a point buy back program.  Every salesman I have talked to since day one has told me that such a plan is in the works.


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## jme (Jul 11, 2012)

no 

(what? message too short?  need at least 10 characters? ok)


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## tjkahn (Jul 11, 2012)

hotcoffee said:


> I would definitely sell if:
> 
> 2. Marriott implemented their much-rumored point buy back program so that I would not saddle my children with inherited maintenance fees after I am gone.  The salesman at the presentation here at Barony Beach insisted that Marriott still plans to implement a point buy back program.  Every salesman I have talked to since day one has told me that such a plan is in the works.



Don't believe it.  They also claimed they would buy deeded weeks back at 60% of the last sales price when the resort sold out.  Theyr'e not even exercising ROFR's on units selling for 20% of what the last developer weeks sold for.


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## bazzap (Jul 11, 2012)

I would never says never, but with deeded weeks in resorts we like and two of them being lock offs I struggle to believe Marriott could make an offer that we would find sufficiently appealing.


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## Leeman (Jul 11, 2012)

I would not sell my deeded weeks for DC points, I think DC point requirements will go up in the future. I would keep my weeks. There is also the maintainance fee issue as well.  No thanks.


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## m61376 (Jul 11, 2012)

I like knowing that I am guaranteed a week in my season at my home resort. In reality, the flip side to the relatively poor allocation for Aruba and prime Caribbean weeks in general is that they are a relative bargain for point use, and I wonder how wide open point reservations are and will be down the road, esp. for 3BR units.

So- NO


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## dougp26364 (Jul 11, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> If Marriott is buying?  Sure, I'd seriously consider any offers for a permanent exchange of Weeks for DC Points!  But I am fairly certain that if ever it's an option it would be me paying Marriott for the "privilege" and not Marriott buying, so they'd have to make it a very attractive offer of at least X.5.
> 
> *I understand what some of you are talking about as far as the "power" of deeded ownership but I think that at this point and going forward, that power as it relates to voting rights at our home resorts is an illusion.  *Owners don't vote in majority numbers anyway, and as more and more existing Weeks are conveyed to the Trust we're losing whatever little influence we may have had over Marriott.
> 
> That deed power as it relates to perpetual ownership and being able to pass our ownerships on to our heirs is more substantial, more protected from whatever Marriott could or might do to try to erode any deed powers. But DC Trust Points purchases are also deeded in the same way, for what it's worth.  IMO, the "power" to pass our Weeks or Points to our kids isn't all it's cracked up to be - I'd much prefer an end date so that we wouldn't be saddling our kids with possibly unwanted financial obligations.



As soon as the trust holds enough deeds in the trust to control any vote, it becomes a moot point. Owners would never be able to exert any control over the HOA or the BOD again.

One advantage of being a trust owner is to allow your trust intrust to go into default should you ever want to get rid of your ownership. It could be an easy way to get rid of an unwanted timeshare without seeing a foreclosure on your credit rating.


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## Lee55 (Jul 11, 2012)

jme said:


> no
> 
> (what? message too short?  need at least 10 characters? ok)



Another.. NO


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## JimC (Jul 11, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> If Marriott is buying?  Sure, I'd seriously consider any offers for a permanent exchange of Weeks for DC Points!  But I am fairly certain that if ever it's an option it would be me paying Marriott for the "privilege" and not Marriott buying, so they'd have to make it a very attractive offer of at least X.5.
> 
> I understand what some of you are talking about as far as the "power" of deeded ownership but I think that at this point and going forward, that power as it relates to voting rights at our home resorts is an illusion.  Owners don't vote in majority numbers anyway, and as more and more existing Weeks are conveyed to the Trust we're losing whatever little influence we may have had over Marriott.
> 
> That deed power as it relates to perpetual ownership and being able to pass our ownerships on to our heirs is more substantial, more protected from whatever Marriott could or might do to try to erode any deed powers. But DC Trust Points purchases are also deeded in the same way, for what it's worth.  IMO, the "power" to pass our Weeks or Points to our kids isn't all it's cracked up to be - I'd much prefer an end date so that we wouldn't be saddling our kids with possibly unwanted financial obligations.



Agree with this view, except that no one can be forced to accept an inheritance.  So protecting the kids from unwanted financial obligations is not very high on my list of concerns.  I did not pay MVCI to convert because I am quite happy using my weeks when and where I own.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 11, 2012)

JimC said:


> . . . except that no one can be forced to accept an inheritance. . . .



Explain this.  If your timeshare upon your death becomes part of your estate, and the will designates who gets what.  How can a person refuse?  Refusing to pay the maintenance fees means a default.  It has got to be someone's problem.


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## m61376 (Jul 11, 2012)

hotcoffee said:


> Explain this.  If your timeshare upon your death becomes part of your estate, and the will designates who gets what.  How can a person refuse?  Refusing to pay the maintenance fees means a default.  It has got to be someone's problem.



Legally you can file papers with the court to disclaim any portion of an inheritance.


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## suzannesimon (Jul 11, 2012)

I would not give up my weeks.  The maintenance fees are too high and I have fixed weeks that I know I can always get now.  If I converted to trust points, I would not have that guarantee anymore.



cbdmvci said:


> Assume VAC wanted to simplify its business model by “buying” your legacy weeks for Trust Points.
> 
> _(I believe the moderators have the ability to turn the poll below into an actual vote counting poll … but I’ll leave that up to them.)_
> 
> ...


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## scrapngen (Jul 11, 2012)

No.

DC point values for different properties are subject to change. My week is my week is my week. 7 days. Therefore, even if they gave me DC points to equal my current week with no skim, there is no guarantee that it will change down the road. Even as soon as the following year. 

It appears that with various point conversions for other branded properties this has happened and owners have been unhappy.  A degradation of value in the points and point requirements steadily increasing for most desirable properties - necessitating further purchases of points to get the same amount of vacation time and value.  

And - I would be seriously increasing my maint. fees. 

Most of the Marriott properties are not within driving distance being in the Northwest, so being able to stay at different properties to save points with short stays is not as much of an option for us. 

So....  No thank you.


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## MALC9990 (Jul 11, 2012)

On that basis - not in a zillion years!


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## BocaBoy (Jul 11, 2012)

dougp26364 said:


> One advantage of being a trust owner is to allow your trust intrust to go into default should you ever want to get rid of your ownership. It could be an easy way to get rid of an unwanted timeshare without seeing a foreclosure on your credit rating.



I don't think this is an accurate statement.  If you have trust points you have a real estate deed representing those points.  If you don't pay your maintenance fees there would be a foreclosure and it would go on your credit rating.


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## mjm1 (Jul 11, 2012)

I don't think we would give up our deed for DC points, but depending on the offer and how we are using it over the next few years, our view may change. I definitely like the flexibility we have now, since we enrolled our week.

This is an interesting topic and one that will be worth watching to see how Marriott approaches it. I wouldn't expect anything to happen in the short term. No particular reason.  Just IMHO


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## brigechols (Jul 11, 2012)

Never, not for any amount of trust points. The number of trust points required for a 7 day stay will increase over time and cover fewer days. A legacy week should continue to provide a 7 day stay.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 11, 2012)

BocaBoy said:


> I don't think this is an accurate statement.  If you have trust points you have a real estate deed representing those points.  If you don't pay your maintenance fees there would be a foreclosure and it would go on your credit rating.



Correct, there are plenty of liens filed with the Orange County Comptroller. Some may be for defaulted mortgage payments but I am sure many are for unpaid MFs. These points are still a deeded interest. So any foreclosure action will hit the owner of the deed.


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## Cmore (Jul 11, 2012)

I think I probably would convert at X - not less than.  For the reason that our resorts (Cypress Harbour and Desert Springs II) are not exceptionally high on the point scales so the MF's would be relatively similar.  What would make that option attractive is being able to keep our full unit MR point conversion  (125K & 110K) as well as being able to drop the DC Legacy annual fee since we would have trust points.   

One point of clarification I'd want before I jumped is that I have heard (but am not sure its a fact) that the total number of points for a resort is fixed and only how the points at that resort are configured move around.  This means an increase in one or more places, means equal and opposite decreases at the same resort - so no inflation at a resort overall.  Prime dates and times can be more, but then other times decrease to offset it.   Does anyone know if what I am saying is "fact" or just an assumption someone has made?  If this is fact, then they can't inflate the value out of your week (just via higher MF's).  If they really can inflate a resort's points over time making my holdings less valuable, I'd never give up my week.


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## markhs (Jul 12, 2012)

Nope.  I'd have a fee increase, plus with the skim, this doesn't make sense for my situation.  

Marriott would have to sweeten the pot substantially which I am pretty sure won't happen, at least to a point where I'd be swayed.


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## SMB1 (Jul 12, 2012)

When i originally read this post I thought the answer would be that I would give up my gold MGV and my Platinum premiere Lakeshore week for points at X, but not my platinum OceanWatch week.  

I believe my OceanWatch week will always be valuable as far as using, trading or renting and I would always want to be able to guarantee reserving a platinum week. 

I believe my Lakeshore reserve week would be valuable as at x points and would like to avoid the skim. 

I have never used my gold MGV week during gold season so getting x points seems to be a good deal so I could reserve a comparable week anywhere. 

But as I think about it further, I will always want the option to lock off and deposit two weeks into II for two full weeks with both MGV and Lakeshore.  I will often get two 2 bedrooms for the 2 sides.  I can always convert these weeks to points when I want, and absorb the skim.  And there will certainly be many years that this will be the best option.  So why would I limit myself.  Options are good.  

There will be years that I don't travel as much as others.  I can reserve weeks at OceanWatch and Lakeshore, rent them for enough to cover all of my maintenance fees for all of my weeks for the year.   Then reserve a gold MGV week, lock it off and have two II deposits to travel with and still enjoy 2 vacations.  

There will also be other years that I definitely want to go somewhere specific at a certain time even if that means I have to pay a premium in points to do so, ie, Mountainside during presidents week or Hawaii at Christmas.  Now I can suck up the skim, convert to points and reserve what I want.  

I have the best of both worlds now.  I don't want to give that up.  Especially since we own 2000 trust points which ,at least so far, is allowing me to combine legacy and trust points to get any reservations I've attempted. If this changes maybe my decision would change as well.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 12, 2012)

I know that we wouldn't "sell" our ownerships for anything close to their current allotment of DC points. Probably not even if they doubled our allotment. Trading in to off/shoulder season weeks is far more fruitful in II than in DC points. Our trades using what would equal about 4250 DC points gets us trade through II that would end up costing over 12,000 DC points if the trades were done in DC.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 12, 2012)

In analyzing the trust, I have been able to determine how many points MVCI assigns to certain weeks that it conveys to the trust. My guess is that if they were to offer any type of conversion in the future, these would be the amounts they would use in that conversion program. Unfortunately I don't have a very comprehensive list and no platinum weeks are listed.


Resort.................Season...............Value....Size..View
Canyon Villas..........Gold.................1750.....2BR
Cypress Harbour........Summer...............2500.....2BR
Desert Springs I.......Blue.................2000.....2BR
Desert Springs II......White................1000.....2BR
Fairway Villas.........Gold.................1250.....2BR
Grande Ocean...........Bronze................750.....2BR
Harbour Lake...........Gold.................2000.....2BR
Heritage Club..........Winter (Preferred)....750.....2BR
Legends Edge...........Silver...............1000.....2BR
Manor Club.............Silver...............1250.....2BR
Manor Club.............Gold.................2000.....2BR
Mountain Side..........Silver...............1250.....2BR
Royal Palms............Blue.................1750.....2BR
Shadow Ridge...........Silver...............1750.....2BR
Shadow Ridge II........Gold.................2000.....2BR
Summit Watch...........Silver...............1250.....2BR
Villas at Doral........Silver...............1000.....2BR
Willow Ridge Lodge.....Gold.................1500.....2BR
Desert Springs I.......Red..................2500.....2BR
Crystal Shores.........Silver...............2000.....2BR...Gulf View


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## taffy19 (Jul 12, 2012)

GregT said:


> I feel the same way -- would not sell the weeks for DC points.


Same here.  when points are involved, you will lose value over time.


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## jhac007 (Jul 12, 2012)

brigechols said:


> Never, not for any amount of trust points. The number of trust points required for a 7 day stay will increase over time and cover fewer days. A legacy week should continue to provide a 7 day stay.




I luv this comment and totally agree!

Jim


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## Cmore (Jul 12, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> In analyzing the trust, I have been able to determine how many points MVCI assigns to certain weeks that it conveys to the trust. My guess is that if they were to offer any type of conversion in the future, these would be the amounts they would use in that conversion program. Unfortunately I don't have a very comprehensive list and no platinum weeks are listed.
> 
> 
> Resort.................Season...............Value....Size
> ...



Dioxide, I was wondering about where you were picking up these numbers and if there were based on what you "receive" in Legacy points or a completely unrelated number.  Possibly a typo as well.   

Summer Cypress does receive 2500 legacy pts - this matches your number
DSII red receives 2900 and normally DSI is a little higher in the point charts - so the 2500 you show is lower than what is recieved

Possible typo.  The seasons at DSI & DSII are the same.  Blue is the low season (mid summer), so it is odd that DSI blue is being conveyed at 2X the rate of DSII white (more of a shoulder season, which includes the Fall and is a good time to be in the desert), wondered if those were not transposed.


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## RBERR1 (Jul 12, 2012)

Probably would not convert unless the premium was approximately 20-25% of the current point allotment to use my resorts (Not what they give me currently). 

From a MF perspective, I wash- 40 vs 41 cents.  I know at the resorts I own, I have always got the weeks I wanted to fit it with the family's schedule.  I think I would lose that if I went to points (only) as the demand /supply potential would shift to include more owners trying to get certain resorts.  

Under the current method, I have an option on trying to use DC pts but I always have my home resort as the other option which has value. If they want me to convert to trust points, I need to be paid for this option. 

The other concern I would have is the difference between what a week vs. pts get you in terms of trading in II.  The weeks seem to get better value.


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## camachinist (Jul 12, 2012)

Negative Ghostrider, the pattern is full.

Two developer NCV weeks here, bought back in '04.


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## GregT (Jul 12, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> In analyzing the trust, I have been able to determine how many points MVCI assigns to certain weeks that it conveys to the trust. My guess is that if they were to offer any type of conversion in the future, these would be the amounts they would use in that conversion program. Unfortunately I don't have a very comprehensive list and no platinum weeks are listed.
> 
> 
> Resort.................Season...............Value....Size
> ...



Dioxide,

Good info, thank you!  I believe that the 2BR MOC Lahaina/Napili are yielding 7,500 Trust Points to Marriott when they deposit them into the Trust.

Best,

Greg


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## Ron98GT (Jul 12, 2012)

NO! Never.  I'll eventually sell it, as they make it harder for us weeks owners to get trades that we want.  I'm assuming we should have a few more years before we feel the big squeeze.  

I guess I shouldn't say never.  If Marriott changed their points system to something like HGVC's, then I'd be interested.  Otherwise, I'll eventually drop Marriott and then only use RCI Points and HGVC points.  But sure would hate to lose Maui/Kaanapali and Ko Olina.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 12, 2012)

GregT said:


> Dioxide,
> 
> Good info, thank you!  I believe that the 2BR MOC Lahaina/Napili are yielding 7,500 Trust Points to Marriott when they deposit them into the Trust.
> 
> ...



Correct, I have some other values, but I don't have view or unit size on them, so I didn't post them. Here they are.

Ocean Pointe................Gold.........2500
Maui Ocean Club Sequel......Platinum.....7500
Lakeshore Reserve...........Platinum.....3500


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## dioxide45 (Jul 12, 2012)

Cmore said:


> Dioxide, I was wondering about where you were picking up these numbers and if there were based on what you "receive" in Legacy points or a completely unrelated number.  Possibly a typo as well.
> 
> Summer Cypress does receive 2500 legacy pts - this matches your number
> DSII red receives 2900 and normally DSI is a little higher in the point charts - so the 2500 you show is lower than what is recieved
> ...



These are based on actual conveyances to the trust. Looking at certain conveyances I can determine how many points Marriott assigns to certain weeks/units/views/seasons/resorts. In come cases Marriott only conveyed a small number of weeks to the trust and in some cases all were in the same season, so determining the value was easy with some simple math. Some cases Marriott only conveyed a single week to the trust, so determining the value of that week to the trust was simple. Your post prompted me to go back and look at DSVI and DSVII.


Conveyance 20100587037 had 8 DSVI Blue weeks conveyed to the trust with a total of 16,000 points. That values each week at 2000 points since there is only one size and view of units at DSVI.
Conveyance 20110517370 had 8 DSVII White weeks conveyed to the trust with a total of 8,000 points. That values each week at 1000 points since there is only one size and view of units at DSVII also.
Are you sure that Blue is a lower season than White? While summer is super hot in the desert, it is also prime travel time for families since kids are usually out of school. I always though that White was the lowest season in the Marriott system and usually equivalent to a Bronze or Silver?

These numbers don't necessarily correlate to what we are offered when electing our week. It seems that all weeks have a value that is in increments of 250 points. Probably has something to do with a BI being worth 250 points.


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## Cmore (Jul 12, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> These are based on actual conveyances to the trust. Looking at certain conveyances I can determine how many points Marriott assigns to certain weeks/units/views/seasons/resorts. In come cases Marriott only conveyed a small number of weeks to the trust and in some cases all were in the same season, so determining the value was easy with some simple math. Some cases Marriott only conveyed a single week to the trust, so determining the value of that week to the trust was simple. Your post prompted me to go back and look at DSVI and DSVII.
> 
> 
> Conveyance 20100587037 had 8 DSVI Blue weeks conveyed to the trust with a total of 16,000 points. That values each week at 2000 points since there is only one size and view of units at DSVI.
> ...



Interesting, maybe the points are somewhat based on what they acquire the weeks for.   DSI has been sold out forever, and DSII not that long considering the Jasmine court addition is the newest construction.  I would expect MVCI is getting some foreclosures on DSII from MVCI financed deals, not just MF's that have been unpaid.

Regarding the seasons - the easy way to compare is look at Shadow Ridge as they are on the newer Platinum, etc. seasons.  The seasons at SR and DS match exactly or almost exactly.  
Red = Plat, Plat +  
White = Gold   
Blue = Silver, no bronze at SR.
So White is definitely higher than Blue.   Interesting anomaly about the Blue/White conveyances - almost like they have it backwards or its somewhat based on aquisition costs.   Check the season charts out and you'll see what I mean.     

BTW - thanks the the info and all the things you keep track of/share with everyone.  I find your posts among the most valuable.


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## burg1121 (Jul 12, 2012)

NO how could anyone trust Marriott to do what's right. They do what's best for Marriott. I remember when we bought at GO being told us you will be able to trade your week for a week at any Marriott Hotel around the world. At the rate they change PT values I'll be lucky to get a weekend soon. The DC needs our prime weeks more than we need the DC. Use the DC to your advantage not theirs.


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## KathyPet (Jul 12, 2012)

I would never sell my deeded weeks for points.  I bought where I want to go in the season that I want.  DC points GUARANTEES ME NOTHING.    THey never promise you that you can get the week you want in the season you want at the resort you want.  WHy would I take a chance like that?


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## dioxide45 (Jul 12, 2012)

Cmore said:


> Interesting, maybe the points are somewhat based on what they acquire the weeks for.   DSI has been sold out forever, and DSII not that long considering the Jasmine court addition is the newest construction.  I would expect MVCI is getting some foreclosures on DSII from MVCI financed deals, not just MF's that have been unpaid.
> 
> Regarding the seasons - the easy way to compare is look at Shadow Ridge as they are on the newer Platinum, etc. seasons.  The seasons at SR and DS match exactly or almost exactly.
> Red = Plat, Plat +
> ...



I am not sure that it has anything to do with what they acquire the weeks for. The value for a white DSVI week is the same for all white DSVI weeks regardless of when it was acquired. There are actually two separate conveyances for these and both have the same value per week. Not sure why they values white more than blue. Perhaps they have deemed now that the Blue weeks actually have a higher demand than the white? Much like at Ocean Pointe with the Silver and Gold anomaly where they give silver week owners more points than those that own gold?


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## NJDave (Jul 12, 2012)

_for some figure only more than 1.1 times X

I would take .5 times the number of points if the offer was in cash rather than trust points.


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## Ron98GT (Jul 13, 2012)

Cmore said:


> Interesting, maybe the points are somewhat based on what they acquire the weeks for.   DSI has been sold out forever, and DSII not that long considering the Jasmine court addition is the newest construction.  I would expect MVCI is getting some foreclosures on DSII from MVCI financed deals, not just MF's that have been unpaid.
> 
> Regarding the seasons - the easy way to compare is look at Shadow Ridge as they are on the newer Platinum, etc. seasons.  The seasons at SR and DS match exactly or almost exactly.
> Red = Plat, Plat +
> ...



They would be backwards IF you were looking at Hawaii.  At Shadow Ridge, Silver/Blue is July thru the end of August, when the temperature can be over 110 degrees: hard to play golf or do much of anything in the desert.  Gold/White is June and fall (Sept thru mid Dec) when the temps aren't as bad.

Check out the temps:

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/92260

The last few days, the temps here in Vegas have been around 112/113 (but it's a dry heat :hysterical.  Palm Desert today was 108.  Hard to be out in that heat & sun.

Note: I own a Shadow Ridge Gold week.


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## cbdmvci (Jul 13, 2012)

*Poll now activated by Moderators*

Bump to remind you that a statistical poll has now been activated by the Moderators.  Thanks to them.  Even if you have expressed your opinion in text, you should now vote the poll also.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 13, 2012)

I voted, "Yes, if they gave me more ..." so that I'd be counted with however many would consider it.  My vote is actually closer to, "MAYBE, if they gave me more AND..."


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## Ron98GT (Jul 13, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> I voted, "Yes, if they gave me more ..." so that I'd be counted with however many would consider it.  My vote is actually closer to, "MAYBE, if they gave me more AND..."



What about the increase in MF"s?  

Or what about the inconsistency in points awarded for 2-Brs, 1-Brs, ?-Bdrm+, etc?


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## SueDonJ (Jul 13, 2012)

Ron98GT said:


> What about the increase in MF"s?
> 
> Or what about the inconsistency in points awarded for 2-Brs, 1-Brs, ?-Bdrm+, etc?



All of us would have to decide if a permanent exchange would be advantageous for what we individually own.  I get a pretty good allotment for my Weeks and will be very happy to stick with them being deeded and enrolled if Marriott never allows a permanent conversion.  But I also see a lot of usage value in the Points system and have been saying for years that my ideal timeshare would be a marriage of Disney's Point system with Marriott's resort network.

So IF they ever offer permanent conversions I'm pretty sure that we'll at least seriously consider it, and probably do it if we see good usage value and if our vacation budget would be able to absorb the MF's.

Not saying Yes Definitely but not saying No Way either.  And I'm certainly not saying that what we would decide is the Only One True Way for everyone else to follow.


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## Ron98GT (Jul 13, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> All of us would have to decide if a permanent exchange would be advantageous for what we individually own.  I get a pretty good allotment for my Weeks and will be very happy to stick with them being deeded and enrolled if Marriott never allows a permanent conversion.  But I also see a lot of usage value in the Points system and have been saying for years that my ideal timeshare would be a marriage of Disney's Point system with Marriott's resort network.
> 
> So IF they ever offer permanent conversions I'm pretty sure that we'll at least seriously consider it, and probably do it if we see good usage value and if our vacation budget would be able to absorb the MF's.
> 
> Not saying Yes Definitely but not saying No Way either.  And I'm certainly not saying that what we would decide is the Only One True Way for everyone else to follow.



I'm not trying to rattle your cage, it's an honest question and I was attempting to learn from your answers.  I don't know a lot about Marriott's new point system, but what I have read (not much), I do not like it.  Within this thread, I read that MF's would increase (how much = ?) if you converted to points, and within this thread I have read (Dioxide's posts) about the inconsistency in points.  If you had stated that MF's would go up $10, thats not bad :zzz: , but from what liitle if seen, it looks like the MF's could double?  and double  

Like I said before, if they had a points system like HGVC's, I would definetly be interested.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 13, 2012)

Ron98GT said:


> I'm not trying to rattle your cage, it's an honest question and I was attempting to learn from your answers.  I don't know a lot about Marriott's new point system, but what I have read (not much), I do not like it.  Within this thread, I read that MF's would increase (how much = ?) if you converted to points, and within this thread I have read (Dioxide's posts) about the inconsistency in points.  If you had stated that MF's would go up $10, thats not bad :zzz: , but from what liitle if seen, it looks like the MF's could double?  and double
> 
> Like I said before, if they had a points system like HGVC's, I would definetly be interested.



Oh, I didn't feel rattled and hope I didn't leave you with a bad impression, either!   

Definitely the MF's would be a consideration and no doubt they'd increase - I'd expect a big increase actually, because I wouldn't accept a permanent conversion of 1:1.  I'd want them to offer me more Points than it takes now to book my own Weeks in season, enough to make up for whatever Points inflation costs we might reasonably expect in say, the next ten years.

But I don't think about MF's the way most TUGgers do, I don't do all the math to compare MF's to private or marriott.com rental rates and we didn't choose our Weeks based on the best exchange value per MF that could be gotten.  We bought so that we'd have some guarantee of going where we want to go when we want to go, in a certain type of unit with a certain view.  So for us timesharing hasn't been the most cost-effective way of vacationing.  There's nothing wrong with the folks who demand that from their timesharing, it just isn't the way we think.  Our consideration is only with whether our vacation budget can absorb the cost for what we own, with no consideration for what others might consider as their own barometers.

Truly I wouldn't expect Marriott to offer this type of permanent conversions from Weeks to Points anytime in the near future.  If/when ever they do, the more important considerations IMO will be the then-current Points Resales usage and market, and the relative ease of getting desired reservations.  Right now the Points Resales info is practically non-existent so if they offered this now, I wouldn't waste two minutes thinking about it.  Right now with so much unsold Trust inventory in play that can be mingled among the buckets, there seems to be a good success rate for getting desired reservations.  If that changes and if/when they offer it there will be difficulty with getting reservations, I wouldn't consider it because the Weeks home resort advantage will be more valuable then than now.

So many things to think about, which is why I go back to my vote being, "MAYBE, if they offer me more AND ..."


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## klpca (Jul 13, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure that it has anything to do with what they acquire the weeks for. The value for a white DSVI week is the same for all white DSVI weeks regardless of when it was acquired. There are actually two separate conveyances for these and both have the same value per week. Not sure why they values white more than blue. Perhaps they have deemed now that the Blue weeks actually have a higher demand than the white? Much like at Ocean Pointe with the Silver and Gold anomaly where they give silver week owners more points than those that own gold?



In trade tests, the summer weeks in my season (white) which are late June and early July pull fewer units in II than my late fall weeks. I'm not sure if Marriott looks at their value differently. As a user, the fall weeks are awesome - warm and not too windy.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 13, 2012)

Marriott doesn't really need the inventory in the trust to be able to offer it up to trust owners. They have other sources of inventory for sold out resorts. So they won't do this to get their hands on inventory. They really won't do it to get more control over the BOD either, they already have a big influence there and don't really need the weeks in the trust to get more.

Marriott will only offer this when they think they can extract more money from the owner base, either by charing a fee or requiring a set amount of legacy points being purchased.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 13, 2012)

Ihave voted no way in the poll but, I've learned over the years there is rarely an absolute no. Like any other offer I'd have to see it befoe deciding. Voting rights are great but, control over a resort is more of an illusion than a reality. 

The #1 reason we never converted our deeded weeks in to trust interests with DRI is money. Trust MF's run maybe 25% more and, there's two memberhip fee's rather than one (a THE Club fee for all DRI resorts and a Trust management fee for the particular trust you're in. They divide resorts into seperate trust groups). 

IF the costs were approx. the same and IF we recieved enough points to go to our home resort during the season/times we normally go and IF we received enough points to book the view we originally paid for THEN maybe we'd consider converting. 

Since I don't anticipate those things ever happening, I feel I can vote no way pretty safely and still be able to sleep at night.


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## KathyPet (Jul 14, 2012)

How can there be any doubt in anyone's mind that the # of points required to book a week during a certain season with a certain view will increase over time.  Does anyone think that Marriott will hold the point requirement steady?  Look what they have done with the MR program where the # of MR points they give you will no longer cover a week's stay in one of the upper level hotels which they used to do when I first bought.  Now you are lucky if your points cover a week at a Courtyard.  Purchasers today who think they are buying enough DC points for a week in Hawaii in platinum time are going to be more than a little angry in a few years when Marriott raises the # of points required to get that week and, believe me, they will. In addition to selling points to new purchasers they will need to ensure a continuing revenue source by raising the # of points required to force the hand of those existing points owners who want to continue to visit the resorts that they originally purchased points for.   WHy would I possible traded my deeded week that guarantees me my 7 nights at my resort in season for that kind of a program?


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## dioxide45 (Jul 14, 2012)

KathyPet said:


> How can there be any doubt in anyone's mind that the # of points required to book a week during a certain season with a certain view will increase over time.  Does anyone think that Marriott will hold the point requirement steady?  Look what they have done with the MR program where the # of MR points they give you will no longer cover a week's stay in one of the upper level hotels which they used to do when I first bought.



I think there is a big difference between Marriott Rewards and the DC Point program. First Marriott Reward points are free. You don't pay anything for them except for the stays when you earn them. There is no legal requirement to keep the same value for them. It is a free program to enroll in. The DC program has an underlying ownership with the trust. Trust owners bought trust points, and paid a very high price to do so.  MVCI would be walking a fine legal line if they decided to increase the cost to travel to the same resorts. Now that isn't to say they won't build new resorts that have much higher point allocations, but I don't think we will see steep increases in the point requirements to travel to the same resorts we do today. There may be some re-balancing of point values where an increase at one resort/season/view causes a decrease in points in another.


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## GrayFal (Jul 14, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> I think there is a big difference between Marriott Rewards and the DC Point program. First Marriott Reward points are free. You don't pay anything for them except for the stays when you earn them. There is no legal requirement to keep the same value for them. It is a free program to enroll in. The DC program has an underlying ownership with the trust. Trust owners bought trust points, and paid a very high price to do so.  MVCI would be walking a fine legal line if they decided to increase the cost to travel to the same resorts. Now that isn't to say they won't build new resorts that have much higher point allocations, but I don't think we will see steep increases in the point requirements to travel to the same resorts we do today. There may be some re-balancing of point values where an increase at one resort/season/view causes a decrease in points in another.


I believe Kathy was referencing the conversion of your TS week for MRPs.

When I made my first purchase in January 2001, I could convert my Gold Fairway Villas week for 75,000 MRPs. We purchased two weeks so that each year we would turn one week in for points - that gave us a 1 week 2nd timeshare stay each year and for 150,000 MRPs we got 7 nights in ANY Marriott hotel except 8 top properties, 120,000 FF miles and a free Hertz week rental every other year. This worked great for our family of 4 as Caribbean FF tix were 30,000 each. 
The top 8 resorts cost 200,000 for that travel package.

I no longer own those weeks :ignore: 

So while Marriott has adjusted their point requirements for stays, they chose to keep our point conversions the same, decreasing their worth.


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## GrayFal (Jul 14, 2012)

....so I voted NO I will keep my 7 night stays in 2BR Villas, TYVM


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## dioxide45 (Jul 14, 2012)

GrayFal said:


> I believe Kathy was referencing the conversion of your TS week for MRPs.
> 
> When I made my first purchase in January 2001, I could convert my Gold Fairway Villas week for 75,000 MRPs. We purchased two weeks so that each year we would turn one week in for points - that gave us a 1 week 2nd timeshare stay each year and for 150,000 MRPs we got 7 nights in ANY Marriott hotel except 8 top properties, 120,000 FF miles and a free Hertz week rental every other year. This worked great for our family of 4 as Caribbean FF tix were 30,000 each.
> The top 8 resorts cost 200,000 for that travel package.
> ...



I agree that is what Kathy was referring to. Though she was using it as a comparison to how she thinks that MVCI will also increase the DC points requirements for a week in the DC program. I don't think that the two systems can be compared because the MR program is completely different from how DC was setup. There is no guaranty that one will always be able to trade their week for MRPs, it is an option program that was used strictly as a sales tool to sell weeks. DC points are an interest in an ownership program just like a deeded week is. I think MVCI can decrease what they give us in DC points a lot easier than they can increase the cost of those weeks in the DC system.


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## Ron98GT (Jul 14, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> In analyzing the trust, I have been able to determine how many points MVCI assigns to certain weeks that it conveys to the trust. My guess is that if they were to offer any type of conversion in the future, these would be the amounts they would use in that conversion program. Unfortunately I don't have a very comprehensive list and no platinum weeks are listed.
> 
> 
> Resort.................Season...............Value....Size..View
> ...



Will you eventually compile a complete list of points given/required for all MVC properties that includes all bedrooms, views, seasons, and their MF's?  

Please, pretty please. 

For now, do you know what the points for a Shadow Ridge Gold are: 2000?  What about Maui & Ko Olina 1-Br, OV, & MV weeks? 

Lets say, for the point of discussion, that I could get enough points (or at least close) from my Shadow Ridge L/O to get a 1-BR and studio in Hawaii (doubtful).  Could I then purchase additional points so that I could get 2 weeks in Hawaii in 1-BR's?  Just trying to understand the system better.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 14, 2012)

Ron98GT said:


> Will you eventually compile a complete list of points given/required for all MVC properties that includes all bedrooms, views, seasons, and their MF's?
> 
> Please, pretty please.
> 
> ...



GregT has compiled a listing of the amount of DC points that MVCI gives for certain resorts/weeks/seasons/views. You can find that here.

The list that I have compiled is based on what MVCI values these resorts/weeks/seasons/views when they convey them to the trust. I am using conveyances to determine these values. It isn't easy. I base this on looking at conveyances where MVCI conveyed only a single week to the trust or conveyed weeks that were all in the same season and mainly at resorts where there are very few different views and only one or two different unit sizes. If MVCI makes large conveyances with multiple views or unit sizes it isn't easy. Some conveyances actually list the unit size and view, but many do not. I have posted all the weeks that I know the values of from this research. I will continue to capture what I can when MVCI makes more conveyances to the trust. I doubt I will ever get a complete list.


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## m61376 (Jul 14, 2012)

Ron98GT said:


> Lets say, for the point of discussion, that I could get enough points (or at least close) from my Shadow Ridge L/O to get a 1-BR and studio in Hawaii (doubtful).  Could I then purchase additional points so that I could get 2 weeks in Hawaii in 1-BR's?  Just trying to understand the system better.



In reality, you will likely only get enough points from your Shadow Ridge units to get 4 or 5 days in comparably sized Hawaii units, so you'll need more points to get even a week in a studio and a week in a 1BR. My guess without looking at the charts is that you'll prob. have enough points for only 4 days, but it will depend on where and when you want to go. The reason for this is that Hawaii units cost more in points than Shadow Ridge units, you have to factor in the skim, and then factor in the added skim of 2 halves not equalling a whole, meaning that it costs more in points for a 1BR and a studio than for a 2BR.

GregT has a great website where people can rent points. Alternately, you can borrow points from the following year, since it will likely take close to two years worth of points to get 2 1BR weeks.

The flexibility is nice, but it does come at a cost.


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## Ron98GT (Jul 15, 2012)

m61376 said:


> In reality, you will likely only get enough points from your Shadow Ridge units to get 4 or 5 days in comparably sized Hawaii units, so you'll need more points to get even a week in a studio and a week in a 1BR. My guess without looking at the charts is that you'll prob. have enough points for only 4 days, but it will depend on where and when you want to go. The reason for this is that Hawaii units cost more in points than Shadow Ridge units, you have to factor in the skim, and then factor in the added skim of 2 halves not equalling a whole, meaning that it costs more in points for a 1BR and a studio than for a 2BR. (And even more for two 1-BR's)
> 
> GregT has a great website where people can rent points. Alternately, you can borrow points from the following year, since it will likely take close to two years worth of points to get 2 1BR weeks.
> 
> The flexibility is nice, but it does come at a cost.



How do I find GregT's website, to check what it would cost to rent the missing points?

From Dioxides chart, it looks like I'd get 2,000 points for my Shadow Ridge L/O (325 skimmed from my 2,325).  If I wanted 2 1-BR weeks at MMO/MM1 at 3,100 points/week, then I'd have to rent/buy 4,200 points, from what I under stand.

Would I get more points if I locked it off and then asked for points?  Is that possible?

I'd like to guarantee 2 1-BR weeks (not using II, but booking from Marriott) at MMO, MM1, MKO, and/or MK1 every year or two, but at what cost?  Like previously said by others, at this point points may only be good for short stays?  The overall cost and time will tell.


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## mas (Jul 15, 2012)

Can I change my vote?  (I forgot about the ridiculous price/point for annual fees).


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## m61376 (Jul 15, 2012)

Ron98GT said:


> How do I find GregT's website, to check what it would cost to rent the missing points?
> 
> From Dioxides chart, it looks like I'd get 2,000 points for my Shadow Ridge L/O (325 skimmed from my 2,325).  If I wanted 2 1-BR weeks at MMO/MM1 at 3,100 points/week, then I'd have to rent/buy 4,200 points, from what I under stand.
> 
> ...



GregT's website is linked under his signature on any posting.
You can only deposit the whole unit for points.


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## vail (Jul 15, 2012)

I own a summer week at Heritage Club.
If I do not use the week it trades very well.
However for points I receive 2350 which is very little considering the maintenance fees are $1400.
Therefore I can purchase points for rental at a lower cost than the maintenance fees.
The point system really makes no sense in a lot of the older properties.


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## KathyPet (Jul 15, 2012)

I strongly disagree that Marriott will not raise the # of DC points required to book a stay with those points.  Only time will tell but let's check back in here in 7 years or so and compare the # of points required now against the # of points required in 7 years for a specific stay.

I also disagree with the categorization of the ability to trade for MR points as just a tool to sell weeks.  It was supposed to be a viable alternative to using your week.  It is no longer a viable option.


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## Ron98GT (Jul 15, 2012)

m61376 said:


> GregT's website is linked under his signature on any posting.
> You can only deposit the whole unit for points.



Thanks,

Looks like 50-cents/point.

So in my case (.5 * 4200 points_needed) + ($1080 current MF's & taxes) = $3,180/2 = $1,590 per each 1-BR (+ additional MF"s ?).

Too costly.  I do better locking off and exchange thru II.  I get at least a 1-BR and a Studio, both for $1,080 vs $3,180 (+ additional MF"s ?).  

Am I missing something, or are points REALLY this BAD?


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## GregT (Jul 15, 2012)

Ron98GT said:


> Am I missing something, or are points REALLY this BAD?




Ron,

It's not that Marriott points are bad -- the system itself is actually quite good, but the points indeed result in an expensive reservation, as your math has confirmed.   Marriott's system provides flexibility, but it is expensive flexibility.   This is not like other mini-systems (HGVC, Starwood) where you can use your points to obtain reservations in a similar size unit at other desirable properties -- this is a unique animal.

So....trading is definitely the more cost effective option to get the reservations you want.  

All the best,

Greg


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## Ron98GT (Jul 15, 2012)

GregT said:


> Ron,
> 
> It's not that Marriott points are bad -- the system itself is actually quite good, but the points indeed result in an expensive reservation, as your math has confirmed.   Marriott's system provides flexibility, but it is expensive flexibility.   This is not like other mini-systems (HGVC, Starwood) where you can use your points to obtain reservations in a similar size unit at other desirable properties -- this is a unique animal.
> 
> ...



From the posts that I've read the only people happy with the new system/points are those trying trying to break their weeks into days for more trips, but shorter in duration, but losing in the skim.  If you try to convert your weeks into points and then still use the points a week at a time, the cost will kill you, like what happened in my example.

Is Marriott only selling points, or are they also selling weeks (I don't think so).  It seems like Marriott would have a lot of unhappy new owners, but then the new owners aren't getting skimmed, they just don't have enough points to trade-up.


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## GregT (Jul 16, 2012)

Ron98GT said:


> From the posts that I've read the only people happy with the new system/points are those trying trying to break their weeks into days for more trips, but shorter in duration, but losing in the skim.  If you try to convert your weeks into points and then still use the points a week at a time, the cost will kill you, like what happened in my example.
> 
> Is Marriott only selling points, or are they also selling weeks (I don't think so).  It seems like Marriott would have a lot of unhappy new owners, but then the new owners aren't getting skimmed, they just don't have enough points to trade-up.




Ron,

Marriott is primarily selling points right now -- they do have some level of weeks they are selling but they aren't actively promoting them, and for the most part, they aren't eligible to be enrolled in the new program.  (If you buy points, then the week you buy directly from Marriott can be enrolled -- ie, a week worth 4,000 points needs to have 4,000 Trust Points purchased at the same time).

A number of TUGgers have found success with poitns because they like to travel Sunday - Thursday and take advantage of the lower points for those days.   Others own a 3BR non-lockoff, and converting to points is a way to make that single unit translate into multiple reservations.   Others have found that while they don't like the point allocation to them for their week, there are unexpected life developments that cause them to value the shorter stays/different check-in days and make the point allocation more tolerable.

Personally, I think that the Marriott point system moves away from the concept of discounted/prepaid vacations, which are part of the appeal (to me) of timeshares in general.    Using Marriott points is simply a different currency from using cash, and Marriott points facilitate reservations but doesn't discount them.

All the best,

Greg


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## Clemson Fan (Jul 16, 2012)

My MF's would triple for the same use.  So, the answer for me would be HELL no!


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## Ron98GT (Jul 16, 2012)

GregT said:


> Ron,
> 
> Marriott is primarily selling points right now -- they do have some level of weeks they are selling but they aren't actively promoting them, and for the most part, they aren't eligible to be enrolled in the new program.  (If you buy points, then the week you buy directly from Marriott can be enrolled -- ie, a week worth 4,000 points needs to have 4,000 Trust Points purchased at the same time).
> 
> ...




I agree.

Thanks for the info/update, Ron


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## cbdmvci (Jul 16, 2012)

*Why I am in the minority opinion on this poll.*

I started this thread.

And volunteered that I, for one, WOULD sell my deeded weeks for enough Trust Points to stay in my home resorts in my deeded seasons.

I have not been surprised that the overwhelming majority of Tuggers disagree with me.

I have been a bit surprised by some of the hyperbole and confused reasoning supporting the majority’s opinions.

*My particulars:*

_Beach Place Towers, 2 bedroom Plantinum_

I most often use my BPT for Xmas week.
To trade it for Enrollee points, I get 3225 TPs.
To sell it for TP points, I would get 3800 TPs.  (3800 is what it costs in TP points for BPT Xmas week.)
So, every year, I would have an extra 575 TPs not lost to the skim.

_Aruba Ocean Club, 1 bedroom Gold_

I most often use my AOC for Thanksgiving week.
To trade it for Enrollee points, I get 2050 TPs.
To sell it for TP points, I would get 2350 TPs.  (2350 is what it costs in TP points for Thanksgiving week.)
So, every year, I would have an extra 300 TPs not lost to the skim.

*What would I then own?*

I would never pay $10.94 for a TP … but it sure would be nice to know that ... at absolutely no cost ... I would now own an asset that people are paying $67,000 for.  It sure feels a lot better than the current resale value of my two deeds worth a tiny fraction of that.  Maybe they are overpaying, but thousands of people are paying millions of dollars for these TPs every day now.

*My maintenance fees certainly wouldn’t double or triple (as many of the majority state):*

My BPT MFs last year were $1,085.52
My MF’s for 3800 TPs would be $1,520
My AOC MFs last year were $1,069.92
My MFs for 2350 TPs would be $963.50

Total additional yearly cost is $328.06 per year in MFs.  Really not that much money, IMO, to own all those TPs.

*Better Reservation Flexibility 1*

At the 12 months reservation window, I could still go everywhere I can go now … plus dozens and dozens of other places without waiting or hoping for a trade, without any skim cost.  Just by reserving somewhere else instead of at my old “home resorts.”  (_I don't understand the majority's fear that their deeded week guaranteed would be lost.  I have to reserve at 12 months now to get what I want; I would have to reserve at 12 months then to get what I want.  It's no different.)_

*Better Reservation Flexibility 2*

I’m probably retiring this coming year.  Getting out of the cold northeast in February now becomes a lot easier in terms of my time.  But try trading my AOC Gold for an AOC Platinum week in February.  (Good luck.  Actually, I’ve had a Thanskgiving week 2012 week deposited looking for a February 2013 week for over 6 months no … still no luck.)  But, surprisingly, if I had my full 2350 TPs for my AOC Gold week, I could easily stay for 6 days starting 2/3/2013 in AOC for those 2350TPs.  Tack on a 5th day free in the hotel for MRPs, etc.)

*Despite many of the majority’s fears, VAC can’t unilaterally raise the cost of vacations on TP points.*

They can only move them around.  And since I am retiring, actually that could probably be to my benefit, because my increased flexibility would allow me more shoulder season vacations.

*The most important reason is personal.  I refer you to my original reasons: see the  2nd post in this thread.*

In sum, my heirs would never be bothered learning the idiosyncrasies of the “enrolled owners” options.  But the simplified Trust Point model: that they would and could understand and value much more easily.

*I understand that other's circumstances are different.  But, I would do it today.  If there is anyone out there who want to buy me 6150 Trust Points, I'll sign over my two deeds to you at once.*


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## jont (Jul 16, 2012)

cbdmvci said:


> I started this thread.
> 
> And volunteered that I, for one, WOULD sell my deeded weeks for enough Trust Points to stay in my home resorts in my deeded seasons.
> 
> ...



The biggest unknown at this point is what if any resorts in the future will have limited trust point access.

Good luck and enjoy your upcoming retirement.
Hope you have a long and happy one.


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## Clemson Fan (Jul 16, 2012)

cbdmvci said:


> I started this thread.
> 
> And volunteered that I, for one, WOULD sell my deeded weeks for enough Trust Points to stay in my home resorts in my deeded seasons.
> 
> ...


 
You're making some generous assumptions by taking the top point valued weeks in your particular seasons and thinking Marriott would give you that number of points if they did offer to convert/buy back your deeds for points.

When it comes to MF's, I own multiple weeks at Mountainside and I use the 13 month rule to reserve the exact weeks I want.  The weeks I reserve would cost me 6900 points to reserve through points.  That would make the MF $2,760 if I was doing it through points.  My actual MF is a little over 1k.  So, it's not quite 3x MF's, but it's well over 2x.

I did convert my 4 weeks over to the new system, but I really only use 1 of those weeks to trade for points and I personally use the other 3 weeks.  I really don't like what Marriott has done with this new points system.  It's been OK to use the points, but it's very complicated and they've placed so many restrictions on reselling the points that they've really killed the underlying value of the product.  DVC, which I also own, has a much better point system with a very robust secondary point resale and rental market.

I used to follow this Marriott board on a daily basis, but since the point system I check out this board maybe once a month if that.  I still use and thoroughly enjoy my Marriott weeks, but I've lost almost all interest in playing withing this new and confusing system.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 16, 2012)

Clemson Fan said:


> You're making some generous assumptions by taking the top point valued weeks in your particular seasons and thinking Marriott would give you that number of points if they did offer to convert/buy back your deeds for points.



I agree, I am sure there are plenty of Aruba Ocean Club 2BR OF platinum season owners that would jump at the chance to sell their week for 8,875 DC points. Especially when MVCI only gives them 5,225 to convert their legacy week.

I think that the chances that MVCI will buy your deeded week for the peak points value in your owned season is zero to none.

My guess is that they will buy the deed for whatever they are conveying them to the trust for and likely ONLY with additional trust points purchase.


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## Clemson Fan (Jul 16, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> I am sure there are plenty of Aruba Ocean Club 2BR OF platinum season owners that would jump at the chance to sell their week for 8,875 DC points. Especially when MVCI only gives them 5,225 to convert their legacy week.


 
Not if they actually use their week.  For the same use their MF would jump to $3,550   vs. whatever they're currently paying now.

If you actually use your weeks for their intended use and you don't get caught up in the "wonderful exchange daydreams" and if you have a really prime week, then owning a deed makes far more sense because the MF's for prime deeded weeks are far less then using points.


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## Ron98GT (Jul 17, 2012)

cbdmvci said:


> I started this thread.
> 
> And volunteered that I, for one, WOULD sell my deeded weeks for enough Trust Points to stay in my home resorts in my deeded seasons.
> 
> ...



So is this something you have done, or are you assuming, because your figures seem overly optimistic?  

Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to figure out how you got/get such a good deal, if you did?


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## cbdmvci (Jul 17, 2012)

Ron98GT said:


> So is this something you have done, or are you assuming, because your figures seem overly optimistic?
> 
> Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to figure out how you got/get such a good deal, if you did?



No, clearly this, from the first, has been a theoretical thread.  VAC has never offered to "buy" my weeks for enough trust points that would allow  me to stay at my deeded week in my deeded season.

But if they did, I would.  (As would about 30% of the readers of this thread to date.)

And I've explained why, *for my particular circumstances*, it would make sense to accept that offer.  Again, for me, the most important reason is to make my MVCI property a simpler, more flexible, asset for my heirs to judge and use *in their particular circumstances*.

Why VAC should or should not, at some point in the future, want to make some kind of an offer for my deed, paying in TPs instead of cash, is a whole separate discussion and thread.  IMO, MVCI is in a long period of transition.  But, to survive as a business, in the long run, VAC must move toward a simpler business model, something more similar to its competing points-based competitors.  This mixed week/points, multiple bucket, different valued, point, eligible and non-eligible deeds system has got to be expensive to run ... and is unsustainable.


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## WINSLOW (Jul 17, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> I agree, I am sure there are plenty of Aruba Ocean Club 2BR OF platinum season owners that would jump at the chance to sell their week for 8,875 DC points. Especially when MVCI only gives them 5,225 to convert their legacy week.



Another vote for No 

Don't own Ocean Club, but Aruba Surf and doesn't matter how many points they'd give, I'd Never sell it for DC points.

The biggest reason is because you are no longer guaranteed a week anywhere, never mind trying to book an Aruba week in Plat. season with DC points.

And since the DC program II hasn't been much better. Previously we've been able to trade in thru II and received the weeks we needed, been very very lucky to even get a New Years week twice and have gotten confirmed early (requesting a year out and confirmed within two weeks using a Plat 3 Bed St Kitts). No luck this year, not yet anyway for any Plat week. 

And trying to use DC points has been a no go also, for any 2013 Plat week we need so far. 

Thankfully have had no problem booking any of our deeded weeks. Using DC points hasn't been as easy. Unfortunately it's not like booking a hotel - just call & book & go, but the you have to pay


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## Ron98GT (Jul 17, 2012)

cbdmvci said:


> No, clearly this, from the first, has been a theoretical thread. (OK) VAC has never offered to "buy" my weeks for enough trust points that would allow  me to stay at my deeded week in my deeded season.
> 
> But if they did, I would. (A lot of people would change their minds IF they could get a positive skim (get points instead of lose them) (As would about 30% of the readers of this thread to date.)
> 
> ...



I agree, this is a ridiculous point system that Marriott developed.   In the long run, they probably will change it to be competitive: if sales and income go down they will change it.


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## normab (Jul 17, 2012)

No.  We feel we have all the flexibility we need with the points system and exchanges in Interval.


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