# Advice for buying a cheap Marriott resale for trading



## ada903 (May 8, 2010)

I am interested in buying a cheap resale two bedroom lockout where I can trade both sides through the Marriott or II exchange system for lower seasons into Hawaii.  Which resorts have two bedroom lockouts that allow trading both sides, and have decent maintenance fees?  Thanks in advance for any help on this.


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## billymach4 (May 8, 2010)

I would look at 

Horizons by Marriott Vacation Club at Branson • MHB
Horizons by Marriott Vacation Club at Orlando • MHZ
Marriott's Desert Springs Villas and Desert Springs Villas II • MDS & MPD
Marriott's Grande Vista • MGV & MGR
Marriott's Shadow Ridge • MRD


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## ada903 (May 8, 2010)

thanks, I will check them all out!


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## dioxide45 (May 8, 2010)

Try checking out this old thread.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76772


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## thinze3 (May 8, 2010)

billymach4 said:


> I would look at
> 
> Horizons by Marriott Vacation Club at Branson • MHB
> Horizons by Marriott Vacation Club at Orlando • MHZ
> ...



For really cheap, I agree. I am not so sure that the old Horizons units do not have a bit less trade power than the others on your list. Who knows??

The last 3 can be bought for about $7K each.


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## Cobra1950 (May 8, 2010)

Summittwatch Park City Bronze weeks were selling for $1500 through Marriott, might be a few left, we bought one, Flexchange trades ok


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## ada903 (May 8, 2010)

That's a good thread to read, thanks!

Flexchange is the 60 day window in II, before check-in, correct?  Is there still a Marriott priority over other owners during flexchange?  And are all Marriott weeks the same trade power during flexchange?


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## billymach4 (May 8, 2010)

ada903 said:


> That's a good thread to read, thanks!
> 
> Flexchange is the 60 day window in II, before check-in, correct?  Is there still a Marriott priority over other owners during flexchange?  And are all Marriott weeks the same trade power during flexchange?




Yes, yes, and yes!

I had a MSW Bronze, Sold it for $1000 Bucks on Ebay. Summit Watch Maint Fees are creeping up over $1000, That is why I did not list it. It was a great trader, but you had to work hard at it. I found myself on II all day long. The other properties will get you what you want without all of the legwork.

If you want to look at Summit Watch you can also get gold or Silver units under 5K. If want to go Bronze I can get you in touch with MVCI in Orlando. Don't speak to MVCI sales cause they will lie and tell you there is no such thing as a MSW Bronze. Just PM me and I will dig up the information.


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## ada903 (May 8, 2010)

thanks, PM coming your way!


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## Stefa (May 8, 2010)

thinze3 said:


> I am not so sure that the old Horizons units do not have a bit less trade power than the others on your list. Who knows?



I am a new owner of a platinum Branson week and my (admittedly limited) experience has been that the unit has slightly less trade power than others.   I locked off the 2010 week and the 1br would not pull as many 2br units as my friend's Grande Vista.  

I am satisfied with my ownership and the trades I have gotten, but I went into the purchase with lowered expectations.


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## rthib (May 8, 2010)

ada903 said:


> I am interested in buying a cheap resale two bedroom lockout where I can trade both sides through the Marriott or II exchange system for lower seasons into Hawaii.  Which resorts have two bedroom lockouts that allow trading both sides, and have decent maintenance fees?  Thanks in advance for any help on this.



Do you already own a Marriott Time Share?
Are you very flexible with you time?
If not then my advice is none of the above.

Buying a "cheap" time share with hopes of trading usually ends up with unhappy owners unless you really know what you are doing and are flexible.

While this may not apply to you, since these threads are around forever here is the advice I give when others have asked me the same question.

When you buy a time share, the only thing you are buying is the right to use that time share during the season you buy it.
Everything else (trading, points etc...) are subject to change either because Marriott decides to change the program or environments change.


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## funtime (May 8, 2010)

I am happy with our Marriott Shadow Ridge which has a spring/fall season.  It is an EOY that we got on ebay.  Funtime


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## ada903 (May 8, 2010)

I already own Starwoods, for trading purposes only, and it saved me a ton of money, I have never been disappointed with the trades - and that's because we typically travel off season.  We are flexible and know how to work the system.  I know what I'm getting into, so no worries there.  I am just trying to figure the lowest maintenance fee / decent trading power ratio for a two bedroom annual lockoff, and I am still thinking if to get another Starwoods or try the Marriott.


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## LAX Mom (May 8, 2010)

If you want more trading power than a bronze Summit Watch, then I would suggest looking at a summer season (gold) Summit Watch or Mountainside. They seem to be excellent traders and can be purchased very cheaply on ebay.


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## jlf58 (May 8, 2010)

Man, what a great idea. I wonder if anyone else has thought of that. Hey, maybe down the road, Marriott will figure out how to stop that from happening. They will probably call it something like " a point system" where you get what you pay for in exchanges. Nah, that was just a dream I had so go for it. What are the odds on a system rolling out like that in the next 60 days or so ? That gives you plenty of time to buy, close and complain how you can't trade up into Hawaii and how  it's all Marriott's fault  







ada903 said:


> I am interested in buying a cheap resale two bedroom lockout where I can trade both sides through the Marriott or II exchange system for lower seasons into Hawaii.  Which resorts have two bedroom lockouts that allow trading both sides, and have decent maintenance fees?  Thanks in advance for any help on this.


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## DanCali (May 8, 2010)

Oh no - it's turning into another points system thread


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## jlf58 (May 8, 2010)

nah, just a common sense thread LOL 




DanCali said:


> Oh no - it's turning into another points system thread


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## ada903 (May 8, 2010)

I heard the story about Marriott rolling out the points system for five years now. 

Besides, Starwoods has the points too, for internal exchange only, but with II, the points do not come into play, so my Starwood weeks are great trades through II, using the priority for Starwoods members.


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## jlf58 (May 8, 2010)

Than your sources stink. I heard it straight for a person who used to work there. Oh yeah, that was me. Buying offseason Marriott weeks before the end of the year is like buying stock the week before the recession hit. 




ada903 said:


> I heard the story about Marriott rolling out the points system for five years now.
> 
> Besides, Starwoods has the points too, for internal exchange only, but with II, the points do not come into play, so my Starwood weeks are great trades through II, using the priority for Starwoods members.


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## scrapngen (May 8, 2010)

THis doesn't seem to be a hijacking or change of this thread at all IMO.

In Fletch's defense (not that he needs help defending himself ) It seems reasonable to simply suggest that the OP's plan might wait - what - one or two months, now?? - before buying. If something rolls out, then the warning was helpful, and saves the OP from a possible headache. If nothing changes, then prices also won't really be much different in two months time, and, again, the OP hasn't really lost anything but two months - in TS, not a long time at all.  The OP may have noticed the threads re: possible Marriott changes, but they might not have, so a heads up is, IMHO, another kind TUG type of help when someone is asking about a purchase...

Edit:  Yikes, I'm a slow typer...Fletch and others are already going far beyond my little response...


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## ada903 (May 8, 2010)

Despite the sarcastic tone of some of the postings (what happened to being nice?), the info is very useful, I read some of the threads about the changes that may be on the way, and will stay out and watch for now.  I may end up buying another Starwoods resale week.  Thanks for the advice everyone.


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## jlf58 (May 8, 2010)

sorry, I didn't get to kick my dog today 
You got the point, wait, the weeks will still be there in the Fall 




ada903 said:


> Despite the sarcastic tone of some of the postings (what happened to being nice?), the info is very useful, I read some of the threads about the changes that may be on the way, and will stay out and watch for now.  I may end up buying another Starwoods resale week.  Thanks for the advice everyone.


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## ada903 (May 8, 2010)

Yes, and thank you again for the info, exactly what I needed!


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## dioxide45 (May 8, 2010)

ada903 said:


> Yes, and thank you again for the info, exactly what I needed!



Or just buy DVC, Fletch can help with that, he has no motive promote Marriott.


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## billymach4 (May 9, 2010)

Who knows what is going to happen in 2 months, 6 months, or 6 years. Marriott's will still be trading outside of II. Inside of II. Between people like you and me. 

We all will continue to trade within II and get great vacations. End of story!

What ever will be will be. 

Until I see something official in writing from Marriott on this internal points thing it is a RUMOR plain and simple.

Threads like this will continue to perpetuate until the end of time. Notice we are hearing within the next 60 days......

I thought June was the drop dead date..... In 60 days it will be next year, and so the story lives on into infinity. 

That is my story and I am sticking to it!


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## dr.debs (May 9, 2010)

ada903 said:


> I already own Starwoods, for trading purposes only, and it saved me a ton of money, I have never been disappointed with the trades - and that's because we typically travel off season.  We are flexible and know how to work the system.  I know what I'm getting into, so no worries there.  I am just trying to figure the lowest maintenance fee / decent trading power ratio for a two bedroom annual lockoff, and I am still thinking if to get another Starwoods or try the Marriott.



I have only been a timeshare owner for 2 years, so admittedly not much experience. I own two EOY in scottsdale, SDO 2 br float 1-52 which I bought on ebay for $1100, and MCV 2 BR platinum which I bought on ebay for $7K (this was before the market crashed). I find the SDO to be a better trader than my MCV. This suprises me, as MCV is a newer property, with  more amenities and higher initial costs etc...I also find it more difficult to get the reservations I want at MCV compared to SDO. Again suprising, given the relative newness of MCV, larger number of units, and other marriott timeshare resorts located in scottsdale. I can't explain it, but after trying 6 times to reserve my MCV unit to use next spring, I gave up, took whatever reservation they could give me, and deposited in II. I wish I had just bought SDO every year and been done with it. That being said, starwood just changed a bunch of things, and I will see how trading is for the next few years with II.


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## jlf58 (May 9, 2010)

Give it a rest, why is it so hard to accept the fact that it's not a rumor this time. I said 60 days as a worst case. I am pretty sure it will be in June and worst case July and really, I don't care either way..  IF I bought another Marriott, it would be to use only but thats me. 




billymach4 said:


> Who knows what is going to happen in 2 months, 6 months, or 6 years. Marriott's will still be trading outside of II. Inside of II. Between people like you and me.
> 
> We all will continue to trade within II and get great vacations. End of story!
> 
> ...


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## ldanna (May 9, 2010)

ada903 said:


> Despite the sarcastic tone of some of the postings (what happened to being nice?), the info is very useful, I read some of the threads about the changes that may be on the way, and will stay out and watch for now.  I may end up buying another Starwoods resale week.  Thanks for the advice everyone.



I think you have to wait. If Marriott is what you want, go for it. Strong rumors about a new point system is going on, so waiting a month or two won't be much of a diference.

About Starwood, I have no experience about it but I can hear lots of complains about Starwood here at the Marriott forum. So read about Starwood a little bit more.

BTW, you're doing the right thing: discussing here what you want to do.


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## Clark (May 9, 2010)

Fletch said:


> Give it a rest, why is it so hard to accept the fact that it's not a rumor this time. I said 60 days as a worst case. I am pretty sure it will be in June and worst case July and really, I don't care either way.As of 2 weeks ago, I was told it's still on.  IF I bought another Marriott, it would be to use only but thats me.



Hey Fletch, how about emailing me with who I should use as a new contact person at Marriott?


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## ada903 (May 9, 2010)

I am very tempted about buying an annual two bedroom lockoff at SDO.  I am aware about the Starwoods changes re: depositing floating weeks, and they do diminish trading power, but for what we need (low season Hawaii Westin), even low trading power will do, as long as we have the Starwood priority.  I just need to find a decent deal.


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## Stefa (May 9, 2010)

Marriott also charges $75 to lock off, so you need to figure that into your annual costs.


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## jlf58 (May 9, 2010)

just did it 



Clark said:


> Hey Fletch, how about emailing me with who I should use as a new contact person at Marriott?


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## zcrider (May 9, 2010)

Fletch,
  Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it illegal to give out company secrets?  Don't they make you sign something when you leave saying you can't tell what is up and coming you learned while there??  This is a very public board, so I assume you know better then me what the rules are......but just seems to go against what I thought was not allowed??


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## GregT (May 9, 2010)

zcrider said:


> Fletch,
> Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it illegal to give out company secrets?  Don't they make you sign something when you leave saying you can't tell what is up and coming you learned while there??




You are correct that it would be illegal for our good friend Fletch to give us actionable inside information, which we then used to profit in stock trading before the information became public.  However, I don't think any of this is material enough to Marriott for it to even be a blip to the investment community.  We are the only people that care  (and we would love to have true accurate information, even what Fletch has is imprecise.

I still consider it fun to speculate, and I'll add my own.  Has anybody heard about Marriott further discounting inventory in May?  

My sales rep has told me that they are selling EOY's for 40% of the annual pricing, instead of 60%, for May.   He quoted me a 3BR EOY OV at Ko Olina for $26K.   Interesting, but still not enticing.  2BR EOY OV is $20K -- I don't know if these are meaningful discounts from previous periods.

It will be interesting to see what happens here in June, as I am in the camp of people who think a change is coming.


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## dioxide45 (May 9, 2010)

billymach4 said:


> Who knows what is going to happen in 2 months, 6 months, or 6 years. Marriott's will still be trading outside of II. Inside of II. Between people like you and me.
> 
> We all will continue to trade within II and get great vacations. End of story!
> 
> ...



I agree. I can imaging the excuses now when June comes and goes with no announcement from Marriott. In fact we are starting to hear some of those excuses now, already trying to prepare people for a delay and a July roll out. If June comes and goes, there will be some real questions of credibility about several people on this board.


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## jlf58 (May 9, 2010)

LOL, now thats funny. let's change the company. You hear from BOB that someone high up told him the ZAP company was about to be sold. He tells you because he knows at the time, what was told to him was a fact. Not a lie, not a rumor, as it came straight from the company VP. Well, in negotiations, the deal falls through. That makes Bob not credible any more ? NO, that means up until he told you the info, it was 100% accurate. He could not predict the future and in fact when it fell through, he told you that also so where is the credibility issue ? Your logic  and rational needs a little real world updating. If you trying to prove a point, you doing a real bad job of it. 





dioxide45 said:


> I agree. I can imaging the excuses now when June comes and goes with no announcement from Marriott. In fact we are starting to hear some of those excuses now, already trying to prepare people for a delay and a July roll out. If June comes and goes, there will be some real questions of credibility about several people on this board.


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## jlf58 (May 9, 2010)

I was never important enough for them to worry about what I knew  . BTW, 15 sales people have stupidly mentioned it on tours and they still work for the comapny. They didn't get in trouble I am sure, even though upper managment DOESN"T want them talking about it. 





GregT said:


> You are correct that it would be illegal for our good friend Fletch to give us actionable inside information, which we then used to profit in stock trading before the information became public.  However, I don't think any of this is material enough to Marriott for it to even be a blip to the investment community.  We are the only people that care  (and we would love to have true accurate information, even what Fletch has is imprecise.
> 
> I still consider it fun to speculate, and I'll add my own.  Has anybody heard about Marriott further discounting inventory in May?
> 
> ...


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## Stefa (May 9, 2010)

ldanna said:


> I think you have to wait. If Marriott is what you want, go for it. Strong rumors about a new point system is going on, so waiting a month or two won't be much of a diference.



Totally agree with this.   You really have nothing to lose by waiting a month or so to see what happens in June.  I would use that time to do more research, but I wouldn't buy to trade at this point.  If nothing happens you can move forward with a purchase and still close this year.  If there are major changes announced, you can watch and see if Marriott still sounds good to you.


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## ada903 (May 9, 2010)

That's the plan!


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## Rene McDaniel (May 9, 2010)

Fletch said:


> . IF I bought another Marriott, it would be to use only but thats me.



Oops, oh well.  We just bought our first Marriott week this year.  $2800 for a Shadow Ridge (Palm Desert) EOY - Platinum from a redweek ad.

Other than the great price, the real incentive to buy was to save on the soaring costs of car rentals & airfares going to Cabo or Cancun every year for Spring Break.  Being able to drive to Palm Desert for some warm 80-degree sunshine, pool time, reading several good books, etc.  It will make it easier for us to deal with our teen bringing a friend (no passport or airfares needed), or stay with friends for part of the week.

Still, I was hoping that by purchasing an EOY, I would be able to lockoff the 1-bedroom our use, then exchange the studio with Interval to get a Marriott week during the "even" years.  So, hopefully, no matter what points system Marriott implements -- there will be some Marriott deposits going into Interval, even if they're not the best platinum weeks.  

We were originally looking at purchasing a "gold season" (shoulder season) week, but after hearing about a possible points system coming this summer, we decided to purchase a platinum week instead.  This way, if the new points program is too expensive for those who did not buy from Marriott -- we can just use what we own.  

But I am hoping that we will be grandfathered in, and offered a reasonable buy-in price.  We have a prime March week reserved for 2011, and if Marriott would like to get that week into their new points program -- they'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they penalize us, or try to keep us out because we didn't buy direct for them.  If it's not a good deal for us, why should we pay money to them, when we are happy to just use our week, and trade the lockoff with Interval.

--- Rene McDaniel


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## jlf58 (May 9, 2010)

You bought Platinum so you should be fine 



Rene McDaniel said:


> Oops, oh well.  We just bought our first Marriott week this year.  $2800 for a Shadow Ridge (Palm Desert) EOY - Platinum from a redweek ad.
> 
> Other than the great price, the real incentive to buy was to save on the soaring costs of car rentals & airfares going to Cabo or Cancun every year for Spring Break.  Being able to drive to Palm Desert for some warm 80-degree sunshine, pool time, reading several good books, etc.  It will make it easier for us to deal with our teen bringing a friend (no passport or airfares needed), or stay with friends for part of the week.
> 
> ...


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## taffy19 (May 9, 2010)

Rene McDaniel said:


> Oops, oh well.  We just bought our first Marriott week this year.  $2800 for a Shadow Ridge (Palm Desert) EOY - Platinum from a redweek ad.
> 
> Other than the great price, the real incentive to buy was to save on the soaring costs of car rentals & airfares going to Cabo or Cancun every year for Spring Break.  Being able to drive to Palm Desert for some warm 80-degree sunshine, pool time, reading several good books, etc.  It will make it easier for us to deal with our teen bringing a friend (no passport or airfares needed), or stay with friends for part of the week.
> 
> ...


I believe that you did great by buying a platinum week that you can use and is an easy drive from San Diego.  With the savings of airline tickets and rental cars in Mexico, you can buy the other platinum week at depressed prices.

I am still convinced that they will offer the new system to everyone because it is to their advantage to get a big inventory or the system will not work.  They can't make it too expensive either and they may even have incentives if people are not converting fast enough to their liking.  JMHO.


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## jlf58 (May 9, 2010)

Once again, basics , they have to charge resale buyers alot more money to join, why, because if they don't , it would trigger many people to buy cheap weeks resale and put them into the points system. If Marriott sells a week for $30,000 and you can buy it resale for $5,000 and convert it to points for $500, would that make sense ? Like it or not, Marriott and any other company needs to make resales of thier product not nearly as attactive. 
I expect resale buyers to be allowed in at 3X the price is developer buyers and that might be just people grandfathered with a resale. Once the program rolls out, I would think it would be much harder to get it. 





iconnections said:


> I believe that you did great by buying a platinum week that you can use and is an easy drive from San Diego.  With the savings of airline tickets and rental cars in Mexico, you can buy the other platinum week at depressed prices too.
> 
> Who cares if Marriott will change the system or not.  I am still convinced that they will offer the new system to everyone because it is to their advantage to get a big inventory or the system will not work.  They can't make it too expensive either and they may even have incentives if people are not converting fast enough to their liking.  JMHO.


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## taffy19 (May 9, 2010)

Fletch said:


> Once again, basics , they have to charge resale buyers alot more money to join, why, because if they don't , it would trigger many people to buy cheap weeks resale and put them into the points system. If Marriott sells a week for $30,000 and you can buy it resale for $5,000 and convert it to points for $500, would that make sense ? Like it or not, Marriott and any other company needs to make resales of thier product not nearly as attactive.
> I expect resale buyers to be allowed in at 3X the price is developer buyers and that might be just people grandfathered with a resale. Once the program rolls out, I would think it would be much harder to get it.



Fletch, I had deleted my sentence about who cares if Marriott changes the system or not as I realized that people, who bought non platinum weeks for exchanging, may care a lot.

Even, if the price is 3 times the cost, buying a resale may still save you money.  If people were buying mainly for use than they wouldn't be so vulnerable with all the changes.  They all seem to change the system constantly with floating units and weeks.  They can't do that with fixed week/units.


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## pacheco18 (May 9, 2010)

Is there a link somewhere to the discussion of what those of you in the know are speculating about how the new point system will work and who will be most negatively impacted by the change?


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## ada903 (May 9, 2010)

I'd love to see a thread summarizing what we know about that process, too.  I'll be following the developments over the summer with lots of interest, that's for sure.


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## taffy19 (May 9, 2010)

ada903 said:


> I'd love to see a thread summarizing what we know about that process, too.  I'll be following the developments over the summer with lots of interest, that's for sure.


It's *ALL speculation* but the rumors have been flying around for several years already and the salesmen seem to spread it too besides us here.     Not all salesmen are spreading this rumor because some say that they haven't heard anything about it yet or rather not say anything or are not supposed to.

I did a search for "internal points system" and here are threads that came up and the _first_ one is the oldest one and that is the thread where we first read it on TUG.  You will be busy to read it all but there are no details yet how the system will work so you can save yourself a lot of time not reading anything if that is what you are mainly interested in.   

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=709&highlight=internal+points+system

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23929&highlight=internal+points+system

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50349&highlight=internal+points+system

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60528&highlight=internal+points+system

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85113&highlight=internal+points+system

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103138&highlight=internal+points+system

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113027&highlight=internal+points+system


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## billymach4 (May 9, 2010)

Fletch no malice intended toward you at all in my comments. 

I just want to state a couple of facts and some of my real life experiences. 

Marriott is probably the largest timeshare chain without an internal points system. The execs at MVCI probably wish they had an internal system from the start. It is up to us as the TUG experts to draw conclusions about this, and it does make sense for MVCI to implement such a plan. 

However it is a tremendous project to undertake in a good economy. Yes the overall economy is on the upswing but I don't think most working class people will have the kind of disposable income we have enjoyed in the last 2 decades. Even with a so called internal system there are hundreds of thousands to other units already in our hands. Marriott would be taking a BIG gamble, and it will take years for such a system to gain traction. Most of us including myself will just sit and wait on the sidelines while the new owners test out the system if it ever comes to fruition.

As far as my experience with Corporate rumors I generally ignore about 80% of what I hear. Because it is just like playing telephone. The story gets so twisted out of shape by the time it gets down stream. Forums like this are a breeding ground for such rumors. 

Also we on here on the TUG, and TS4MS have learned how to beat the system by resales, Lock outs, Flex change, and many other good tips and tricks. One way for MVCI development and sales to counter such an advantage is to let this rumor perpetuate. I am certain that the majority of sales staff read this forum. Now Sales reps are using this rumor as a sales tool to their advantage. If I were working hard at Sales in MVCI I would probably do the same thing. More power to them. Because someone ultimately has to purchase direct from MVCI. Otherwise we here in the afterlife of development would not enjoy such benefits.

But what do I know... I am just another kid here on the block with my opinion. I am only drawing this conclusion from my intuition and experience. Fletch you have some real experience and contacts at MVCI and that carries more credibility.  

And I will not repeat my prior salutation.

Have a great day, and a great Mothers day to all the Mom's out there.


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## pacheco18 (May 9, 2010)

Thanks.  Interesting reading.


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## jlf58 (May 9, 2010)

I agree that they wish they did a points system a long time ago. The problem with doing it 20 years later means it will take 10 years for people to consider Marriott a points based system and probably 5 years for them to get it working they way they want. I also agree its a terrible time to do it but this is my thinking on why they are doing it.They got caught with thier pants down. They have more unsold developer inventory than the other top 3 timeshare developers COMBINED. Resorts like Oceana and Crystal Shores and even St Thomas have lots of inevntory that in good times, would take 7 years to sell. Now, with a bad economy and a pretty unflexible program, they know full well they are screwed. 
Not only does managment want the sales people to upgrade owners to points but they fully expcect them to get owners to add weeks because of this change. That just plain won't happen and thats where the disconnect is between upper management and sales
A points system is not expensive to implement compared to a new resort and they can now sell system points in places like Marco and Oceana where they would never sell out in 10 years without help. For what it's worth, I heard the computer end of the points system is done so thats why I don't expect a delay. As far as new resort, I doubt you will see anything in the next 4 or 5 years which is a shame.  



billymach4 said:


> Fletch no malice intended toward you at all in my comments.
> 
> I just want to state a couple of facts and some of my real life experiences.
> 
> ...


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## WINSLOW (May 9, 2010)

Fletch said:


> and even St Thomas have lots of inevntory



When we were at St Thomas 2 weeks ago, they were taking down the last two cranes.  When we asked someone at the front desk when they planned to start  the rest of the buildings - he laughed and said maybe in 5 years.  I don't know if he was kidding or not, but maybe the resort is going to be smaller than we thought for a while.  


Also when we were at the hotel where the sales desk is, there was a salesman at the desk but it wasn't the same as previous years where they tried to grab you as you go by and ask you to a sales presentation. No one even approached us this year.  No calls to our room either to get you to go like before.  Not like Aruba (which I thought was sold out, but they still tried to get us to a presentation everytime we went by).  It's like they gave up.

So do they just sell the remaining rooms that are left in the buildings that are finished or do they still sell rooms in the undeveloped buildings and you have to wait to go?  Because it looks like it could be awhile before they start the next phase and I'd love to trade up our 2 bedroom unit to a 3 bedroom (if they even let you do that), but don't want to wait 5 years to be able to go.


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## jlf58 (May 9, 2010)

If I had to pick one resort MVCI was at risk for not finishing, it would be Marco, Crystal Shores. Once again, a total cluster %^*$ on MVCI's part.
Thinking people would spend $80,000 in Marco was crazy !!  






WINSLOW said:


> When we were at St Thomas 2 weeks ago, they were taking down the last two cranes.  When we asked someone at the front desk when they planned to start  the rest of the buildings - he laughed and said maybe in 5 years.  I don't know if he was kidding or not, but maybe the resort is going to be smaller than we thought for a while.
> 
> 
> Also when we were at the hotel where the sales desk is, there was a salesman at the desk but it wasn't the same as previous years where they tried to grab you as you go by and ask you to a sales presentation. No one even approached us this year.  No calls to our room either to get you to go like before.  Not like Aruba (which I thought was sold out, but they still tried to get us to a presentation everytime we went by).  It's like they gave up.
> ...


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## dioxide45 (May 10, 2010)

Fletch said:


> Once again, basics , they have to charge resale buyers alot more money to join, why, because if they don't , it would trigger many people to buy cheap weeks resale and put them into the points system.



They really don't have to charge them more to join. The way it is today there is a huge price differential between resale and developer pricing. Sure, weeks are not flying off the shelves, but they are not losing a ton of sales to resale. People are not flocking to snap up cheap resale weeks. The standard 93/7% split still exists. The more bodies through the door, the more sales they make.

Charging more for resale to join won't make those people flock to buy direct from Marriott. Marriott won't see an increase in sales due to a new internal sales program. A week is a week, whether it be in points or in a weeks system. It is just a new sales shtick. The price is still the same and the buyers are still not there.


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## dioxide45 (May 12, 2010)

Fletch said:


> I agree that they wish they did a points system a long time ago. The problem with doing it 20 years later means it will take 10 years for people to consider Marriott a points based system and probably 5 years for them to get it working they way they want. I also agree its a terrible time to do it but this is my thinking on why they are doing it.They got caught with their pants down. They have more unsold developer inventory than the other top 3 timeshare developers COMBINED. Resorts like Oceana and Crystal Shores and even St Thomas have lots of inventory that in good times, would take 7 years to sell. Now, with a bad economy and a pretty inflexible program, they know full well they are screwed.
> Not only does management want the sales people to upgrade owners to points but they fully expect them to get owners to add weeks because of this change. That just plain won't happen and thats where the disconnect is between upper management and sales
> A points system is not expensive to implement compared to a new resort and they can now sell system points in places like Marco and Oceana where they would never sell out in 10 years without help. For what it's worth, I heard the computer end of the points system is done so thats why I don't expect a delay. As far as new resort, I doubt you will see anything in the next 4 or 5 years which is a shame.



The problem is and this may have been pointed out before is that if Marriott wants to use the points system to unload slow moving resorts, they have to do away with home resort priority. Example: I walk in and really want HHI, they can't sell me that because there is not inventory. The sales guy says though, I can sell you the ability to use HHI, just buy points. They sell enough points from Marco Island to get me in to HHI each year. The problem is that there isn't any available weeks to reserve in HHI because they would all be booked by home owners there. So they have to get rid of home resort priority to be able to make this sell anywhere, stay anywhere concept work.

I don't think a lot of current owners will go for this. Though perhaps they will just like sheep sent off to slaughter, happily signing away their current rights for a new internal system. There are a lot of resorts that enjoy very high owner occupancy rates. People bought there to go there, they won't want to switch to now have to compete with all other owners for the weeks they now have priority over.

Marriott is currently has the largest TS system of the major hotel companies (I don't consider Wyndham a major hotel operator). They didn't get there with a current system that doesn't work. It would seem that people tend to like the current system. If they didn't they wouldn't have become the largest hotel based TS operator.


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## m61376 (May 12, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> The problem is and this may have been pointed out before is that if Marriott wants to use the points system to unload slow moving resorts, they have to do away with home resort priority. Example: I walk in and really want HHI, they can't sell me that because there is not inventory. The sales guy says though, I can sell you the ability to use HHI, just buy points. They sell enough points from Marco Island to get me in to HHI each year. The problem is that there isn't any available weeks to reserve in HHI because they would all be booked by home owners there. So they have to get rid of home resort priority to be able to make this sell anywhere, stay anywhere concept work.
> 
> I don't think a lot of current owners will go for this. Though perhaps they will just like sheep sent off to slaughter, happily signing away their current rights for a new internal system. There are a lot of resorts that enjoy very high owner occupancy rates. People bought there to go there, they won't want to switch to now have to compete with all other owners for the weeks they now have priority over.
> 
> Marriott is currently has the largest TS system of the major hotel companies (I don't consider Wyndham a major hotel operator). They didn't get there with a current system that doesn't work. It would seem that people tend to like the current system. If they didn't they wouldn't have become the largest hotel based TS operator.



I just posted something similar in another thread. I couldn't agree with you more!  

I bought primarily to use and I don't want to compete with people combining points from other weeks (resorts or seasons) to reserve my week. I don't relish increased competition for reservations of premium weeks.


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## alexadeparis (May 12, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott is currently has the largest TS system of the major hotel companies (I don't consider Wyndham a major hotel operator).



Dioxide, 
I just wanted to point out the following information I was able to get on the internet (so not to say it's 100% accurate, but do your own research). 

from: http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Marriott_International_(MAR)
"Marriott International, Inc. (Marriott) is a worldwide operator and franchiser of hotels and related lodging facilities. At the end of 2009, the company had more than *3,420 hotels *spread across 68 countries.[3] Marriott generates 87 percent of its earnings from hotel operations and 13% from timeshares.[3] The company has over 86 percent of its properties based in the U.S[3]."

from: http://www.wyndhamworldwide.com/about/wyndham_hotel_group.cfm
"Wyndham Hotel Group, part of the Wyndham Worldwide family of companies (NYSE: WYN), encompasses more than *7,090 hotels *and 593,300 rooms in 65 countries under the hotel brands: Wyndham Hotels and Resorts®, Ramada®, Days Inn®, Super 8®, Wingate® by Wyndham, Baymont Inn & Suites®, Microtel Inns and Suites®, Hawthorn Suites by Wyndham®, Howard Johnson®, Travelodge® and Knights Inn® brands."

Obviously, Marriott is higher end than Wyndham, but Wyndham seems to have more hotels.


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## puckmanfl (May 12, 2010)

good morning

The key as always is the ever present MF's

Please follow my math....

Let's say a Platinum unit is 1000 pts, with MF of $1000.  A silver unit at the same resort could be 250 pts but with the same $1000 MF.  When the plat owner converts to points  it will be $1MF/pt, but $4MF/pt for the gold owner.

When it goes strictly points without home resort priority.  There will be 1250 pts for the 2 units but $2000 in mF.  $1.6MF/pt.  When the new point purchaser buys enough points to get a plat unit (1000 pts) he/she will have $1600 in maintenance to do this!!! (this assumes that the MF's will be per point divided amongst the inventory available.

The weaker owner can combine units to get a plat week, but it will be expensive interns of MF's.

Does this make sense???


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## BocaBum99 (May 12, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning
> 
> The key as always is the ever present MF's
> 
> ...



Yes, it makes perfect sense.  How Marriott handles this issue will make or break the points system.


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## puckmanfl (May 12, 2010)

good afternoon

MVCI has to handle this in some way similar to my example. 

The total MF for the entire system is a fixed number!!!  If current owners are asked to go into a system of fixed MF/point.  For the weeks with higher point value (plat) the MF's will go UP!!! and the MF's for the lower point weeks (silver) will go down.  There will not be a single Plat owner that converts if MF's rise dramatically!!!!  Thus there will be no plat inventory in the system!!! 

If my example is used, it may have the unseen side effect of raising resale value for plat units.  For example would it not be easier to pick up a "deeded" plat week that can be converted to points at a $1MF/point ratio as compared to buying enough poiunts to get a plat unit at $1.6MF/point.  The converse applies to the "deeded" Silver wek which canbe converted to points at $4MF/point, but can be purchased in "points only" for $1.6MF/point...

just playing out the possibilities!!!


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## BocaBum99 (May 12, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> good afternoon
> 
> MVCI has to handle this in some way similar to my example.
> 
> ...



What Marriott will probably do is create a Vacation Club Trust where all of the maintenance fees are blended into an average.  They will subsidize it for a few years and then raise the MF over time until a Platinum owner ends up paying a lot more than if they just owned the deeded week.

Upfront, the MF will be really low to attract conversions.  Then, like slow boiling frogs, deeded weeks owners will regret they ever made the jump.


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## RedDogSD (May 12, 2010)

alexadeparis said:


> Dioxide,
> I just wanted to point out the following information I was able to get on the internet (so not to say it's 100% accurate, but do your own research).
> 
> from: http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Marriott_International_(MAR)
> ...




True...but Marriott does not have a super low end.  That is why many of us do not consider Wyndham to be on the same scale.  Wyhdham has SUPER 8 which is Motel 6 + 2.  Out of all of their brands, the only ones worth staying at are Wyndham.  All of the other brands are terrible.


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## m61376 (May 12, 2010)

This is one of the biggest problems I have had with the whole concept over the last several months. As you pointed out, either MF's remain stable for all ownership seasons as they are now (which would assume that there was a home resort priority retained) or weeks are converted simply into points, in which Platinum week owners receive more points and pay a commensurately higher MF. If MF's remains stable for a given resort throughout all ownerships, then you are right- the lesser season owners might need to 2 weeks (and hence 2 years of MF's) to get a single week elsewhere; if MF's are charged per point, Plat. week owners will be experiencing exorbitant increases, commensurate with their point allotment.

Unless Marriott intends to do a lot of subsidizing upfront, as Boca suggests, one group or the other is in for a rude awakening. I think that's a huge impediment to switching systems midstream.


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## RedDogSD (May 12, 2010)

m61376 said:


> This is one of the biggest problems I have had with the whole concept over the last several months. As you pointed out, either MF's remain stable for all ownership seasons as they are now (which would assume that there was a home resort priority retained) or weeks are converted simply into points, in which Platinum week owners receive more points and pay a commensurately higher MF. If MF's remains stable for a given resort throughout all ownerships, then you are right- the lesser season owners might need to 2 weeks (and hence 2 years of MF's) to get a single week elsewhere; if MF's are charged per point, Plat. week owners will be experiencing exorbitant increases, commensurate with their point allotment.
> 
> Unless Marriott intends to do a lot of subsidizing upfront, as Boca suggests, one group or the other is in for a rude awakening. I think that's a huge impediment to switching systems midstream.



Well, they could do what Hilton did.

MF's are based upon unit size, not points and all units are given a point allotment based upon season and size.  So, a 1 bedroom Platinum season is 4800 points.  A 2 Bedroom Gold Season is 5000 points.  Yes, the 2 bedroom Gold owner pays a higher MF than the Platinum 1 bedroom owner.   However, the cost to get the Platinum 1 bd over the Gold 1 bd (only takes 3400 points) was signficant.  

Also, what Hilton does is gives Home Priority reservations from 12 months out to 10 months out.  So, if you want to stay at your home resort and stay in the EXACT unit that you have (you have to stay during a GOLD week in a 2BD) you get priority.  If you want anything different (even if it is your home resort, but you only want to use a 1bd for less points) than the open reservation season for All Hilton points owners starts at 10 months out- 30 days out (where cash buyers can then get in).

Hilton has the best "points" program out there (IMHO) and I am sure that Marriott will try to mimick their program.  If that happens, then the Marriott owners with Platinum weeks will be the happiest.  They will have lower MF's relatively (the same MF will be paid by the Bronze owner) and will have much greater reservation power since their Platinum week will translate to more points.  

This is why I am not considering a Bronze or Silver resale purchase from Marriott until I hear about the program.  Gold might still be worth it.


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## DanCali (May 12, 2010)

RedDogSD said:


> Well, they could do what Hilton did.



How did we get from "advice on cheap resale" to another points thread??:deadhorse:


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