# HGV Max in the Club Reference Guide



## dayooper

(This is my post from a different thread. I figure this should have a post in it’s own.)

Looks like it’s $7000 to join HGV Max without a developer purchase. Here is a screenshot of the reference page from my account.



Here’s another statement from the reference page about resale.




Does this mean if you own resale you can’t be part of HGVMax or does it mean the purchase doesn’t qualify?

To me, it doesn’t matter. We won’t buy from the developer nor will we pay $7000 to join. I’m really disappointed in HGV, but not surprised. The desire to soak owners for even more money is too great. There will be plenty of people who will join and they will make their money, but all of the speculation a year ago was correct, this merger is a negative for many owners.


----------



## colatown

@#*×+ them.


----------



## escanoe

I'm out.


----------



## escanoe

The thing I see here that looks likely to devalue what I own is HGV Max owners having "unlimited home resort priority."

I assume that means in a matter of time until us commoners will not be visiting Ocean Oak, Lagoon Tower, or ski resorts in ski season unless we own there.

I perceive the value of my Vegas ownership going down soon.

If I owned Ocean Oak and was eligible for HGV Max, I would think about purchasing.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

IMHO...At $7k I believe they are going to sell a lot of these. Most buyers are not Tuggers and won't know the downsides of a 6 month reservation especially since there is no other MF obligation beyond the higher club fee (which is a nice annuity stream for HGV).

Compared to the crazy $20 - $30k buy-in + high DP annual MF cited in the MVC/Vistana boards, anything under $10k as a one time cost is not bad.

Diamond Owners: Does Diamond have the equivalent of last minute Open Season Rates? Are they worth it? Is there is availability at 6 months for Cabo Azul, Maui and Sedona during regular season.

For us, Max could be a good strategy to get access without more MF. Once enrolled, we could buy another resale for more points to use in the Max program. (We already have a retail unit so qualify for MAX and already pay the higher AI fee so no change). Unless they provide us with a great deal, it seems we could hold off and call and enroll in the program just before we want to stay at a Diamond property vs. buying right now. So can wait and see how this turns out in terms of availability before pulling the trigger.

I expect the Diamond program for Diamond owners may be similar at 6 months (with the exception of bHC windows), but may require the purchase of additional points unless Diamond Elite. To get 9 months HGVC club, they would need to convert to HGV with a Diamond trust trade-in value.


----------



## escanoe

What is the mechanism under HGV Max to maintain a balance of inventory between HGVC and DRI?

************************

For example:

Assume 10,000 buy HGV Max from the DRI side and 5,000 buy HGV Max on the HGVC side.  In the first year, there are 5,000 HGVC units reserved by DRI members utilizing HGV Max. In the same year 2,500 DRI units are booked by HGVC owners using HGV Max.

***********************

In order to maintain integrity in each system, it seems to me there has to be a balanced amount of inventory moving in both directions. I don't understand how that is assured to happen under this system.


----------



## geist1223

DRI has had a 60 Day Booking at 50% off normal Points. We have been able to Book KBC using this option for a September visit. It was a Mountain View.


----------



## brp

CalGalTraveler said:


> For us, Max could be a good strategy to get access without more MF.



I could possibly see the value here since added MFs for a separate DRI resale would eventually catch up with the $7K...except for the 6-month window. Would we really be able to get what we want (and we'd mainly be interested in Point@Poipu and KBC, although with good flexibility for travel dates).

Cheers.


----------



## Wolfepack88

No chance I'm paying another dime into this.  I paid developer (as a crazy researcher I failed to do research on this when I came back from Hawaii in time) for my Grand Islander digs.  All paid off and so a shit ton of water under the bridge but giving them another 7k, no chance no way.  We will just make our annual trek to hawaii for 20 more years and still not break even (shoot me now).


----------



## dayooper

escanoe said:


> The thing I see here that looks likely to devalue what I own is HGV Max owners having "unlimited home resort priority."
> 
> I assume that means in a matter of time until us commoners will not be visiting Ocean Oak, Lagoon Tower, or ski resorts in ski season unless we own there.
> 
> I perceive the value of my Vegas ownership going down soon.
> 
> If I owned Ocean Oak and was eligible for HGV Max, I would think about purchasing.



I read that differently. I think it says you can make as many home resort reservations in bHC properties.


----------



## Nowaker

escanoe said:


> The thing I see here that looks likely to devalue what I own is HGV Max owners having "unlimited home resort priority."



We need more information on this topic. The club reference does not define what this means, so we should expect an update. From its current state, since "Home Resort Priority reservations are only available to Owners at these select resorts:", whatever "unlimited home resort priority" is, it applies to certain BHC properties only. We'll find out soon.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@dayooper. Interesting interpretation but I don't believe that is the case with some NYC buyers paying $100k+ to have access to NYC.

I see this similar to the MVC/Vistana situation. If you own where you go to get preferential access there is very little incentive to trade and participate in the trading system since you pay a higher MF for your unit. That's like trading a Mercedes for a Chevy. Most OF owners at MVC Maui and Westin Maui either use or rent out for a profit and don't participate in the points programs. Similarly I don't like to trade our expensive NYC access for other properties. That is what our Vegas trader is for!


----------



## dayooper

CalGalTraveler said:


> @dayooper. Interesting interpretation but I don't believe that is the case with some NYC buyers paying $100k+ to have access to NYC.
> 
> I see this similar to the MVC/Vistana situation. If you own where you go to get preferential access there is very little incentive to trade and participate in the trading system since you pay a higher MF for your unit. That's like trading a Mercedes for a Chevy. Most OF owners at MVC Maui and Westin Maui either use or rent out for a profit and don't participate in the points programs. Similarly I don't like to trade our expensive NYC access for other properties. That is what our Vegas trader is for!



I wasn’t clear in what I was trying to say. I think that a bHC owner who purchases into HGV max will have the HGV Max membership and that will cover the club dues and AI bookings for their bHC ownership as well. No extra fee for AI. That would cover club bookings and home resort reservations. I think @escanoe was saying that the home resort priority, like a W57th owner has at their property would.

Here is a snapshot of the new points booking showing the window at a South Carolina resort:




No home resort priority window. Compare that to W57th:





The HGV Max reservations start the same as a Legacy HGVC owners Club Season. There was some question in a different thread (or higher up in this thread) about what the window would be for an HGV Max member.


----------



## natarajanv

dayooper said:


> I read that differently. I think it says you can make as many home resort reservations in bHC properties.



*Home Resort Priority* reservations are made at a Member’s Home Resort in any unit type available subject to Member ClubPoints availability, minimum booking requirements and accommodation availability. During the Home Resort Priority Reservation Window, Members will only compete for reservations with other Owners at that resort. After the Home Resort Priority Window ends, Members may still make Home Resort reservations, subject to availability. 
Home Resort Priority reservations may only be made using ClubPoints associated with the specific ownership interest at that resort. 
*Home Resort Priority reservations are only available to Owners at these select resorts*: • At *West 57th Street*, a Hilton Club, (also known as 57th Street Vacation Suites) the Home Resort Priority Window begins nine (9) months (276 days) prior to the check-out date and ends sixty (60) days in advance of the check-out date. One-night minimum booking required. • At *The Residences,* a Hilton Club; (also known as HC Suites), *The District*, a Hilton Club; (also known as TD Suites), *The Central *at 5th, a Hilton Club; (also known as 48th Street Vacation Suites) and *The Quin*, a Hilton Club; (also known as Central Park Vacation Suites), the Home Resort Priority Window begins nine (9) months (276 days) prior to the check-out date and ends 105 days prior to the check-out date. One-night minimum booking required. Home Resort Priority reservations may be offered at additional resorts in the future or during the first year that a resort is available for occupancy through the Club. Home Resort Priority Windows may change from time to time.


----------



## natarajanv

Full Fee Schedule for HGVC Max Members


----------



## dayooper

Chicago is now considered an urban resort and has changed the reservation window to match the NYC and DC properties. Here are the old reservation windows from 2020:





Club season starts at 276 days. The new windows are like W57th:





Chicago now has a home resort priority at 276 days while club season starts at 59 days.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@dayooper Thanks. That makes sense. So they are now publishing these windows on the site?

If so, where are you seeing this because I do not see an HGV Max window on the resorts that I checked.


----------



## natarajanv

CalGalTraveler said:


> @dayooper Thanks. That makes sense. So they are now publishing these windows on the site?
> 
> If so, where are you seeing this because I do not see an HGV Max window on the resorts that I checked.



Its in this doc


----------



## dayooper

The new points chart on the member website is up. It’s in the club membership portion. Here’s the chart:



			https://d1m2ucn09z2f8d.cloudfront.net/static/documents/0b7ababb-91cc-411f-a8d7-664144eab6ea/CLB-BRCH-796204%20_%20HGV%20Max%20Points%20and%20Open%20Season%20Booklet_WEB.pdf


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Thank you! The Club Points charts on the resort webpages have not been updated yet.


----------



## natarajanv

Reservation Window:


----------



## GT75

Good, so that means that DRI members who purchase into HGV Max will be able to book normal HGVC at 6-month mark and HGVC member will still be able to book at 9-month mark.   I don't have a problem with that.


----------



## GT75

Overall, for HGV (sales) I see this change as positive because they now have an integrated system between HGV & DRI and they will be able to show a lot more places to go.    Now, for owners,   I am not sure that it will be that positive.    IMO, the change is purely for sales.


----------



## natarajanv

HGVC Memberships:

Members eligible to receive HGV Max benefits are referred to as “*HGV Max Members*.” 
Persons may become HGV Max members as described below: 
i* Initial Membership*. Persons who purchase an ownership interest at a Hilton Grand Vacations resort from an HGV Max authorized sales center and join Hilton Grand Vacations Club after launch of HGV Max shall automatically receive HGV Max benefits. 
ii. *Additional Purchase*. Persons who were Hilton Grand Vacations Club Members prior to the launch of HGV Max and upgrade their Hilton Grand Vacations ownership interest or otherwise purchase an additional Hilton Grand Vacations ownership interest after the launch shall automatically receive HGV Max benefits. 
iii.*Ala Carte Membership*. Other Members may have the option to acquire HGV Max benefits by paying a one-time HGV Max initiation fee. Members who obtain HGV Max benefits by means of an additional purchase or ala carte membership as described in items ii and iii above, shall be grandfathered into certain Club benefits and programs and may be referred to as “*HGV Max Legacy Members*.” 

Members who do not qualify for HGV Max benefits may be referred to as “*HGVClub Legacy Members*.” 

HGV Max Members, HGV Max Legacy Members and HGVClub Legacy Members are all “Members.”


----------



## natarajanv

*HGV Max Reservations.* 
At six months (186) days prior to check-in, HGV Max Members may utilize ClubPoints to request an exchange into any resort available within the exchange program known as “The Club” operated by Diamond Resorts International Club, Inc.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

So the most cost effective options so far appear to be:

1*) Do Nothing*. Enjoy HGV as  it is today (still wondering where Embarc will land...)
2) _(If you already own a developer unit)_ *Buy into HGV Max for $7000 plus fees t*o get 6 month reservations and Diamond version of Open Season. 0 additional MF. Could add more resale HGV to ownership points once enrolled. Easy to exit.
3)* Buy resale Diamond. *Cost? What is typical annual MF cost for points to cover a week at Poipu or KBC + purchase of points? Benefit: 13 month reservations + Dia OS. Ease of Exit?
4) *Rent what you need. *Will your stays in Diamond be less than $7000 over the next 10 - 20 years.  How do Vegas cost/resale MF/points arbitrage relative to simply renting?


----------



## brp

GT75 said:


> Overall, for HGV (sales) I see this change as positive because they now have an integrated system between HGV & DRI and they will be able to show a lot more places to go.    Now, for owners,   I am not sure that it will be that positive.    IMO, the change is purely for sales.



People who are already going to buy Developer as they don't know about/don't want resale are going to buy into this. And, for those folks, maybe this is not a bad thing since they basically get it with their Developer purchase from what I understand.

Looking at the $7K and thinking that P@P and KBC are our top priorities, it could make sense over getting a DRI resale since it would not add MFs (unless we buy more). But, as noted, the 6-month window limitation would be the kicker. If things are generally available at 6 months at these locations during less popular (not summer, not Christmas, etc.) times, then I might even be able to see this. $7K goes away quickly against added MFs.

For example, we're going to KOA at Thanksgiving time. One of the table shown here indicates that this is a Peak Week at P@P. Since we're a bit inside 6 months, does anyone here have access to see if P@P and/or KBC have availability now? Of course, retirement is just around the corner, so holiday weekends will not be special.

Cheers.


----------



## Mowogo

CalGalTraveler said:


> So the most cost effective options so far appear to be:
> 
> 1*) Do Nothing*. Enjoy HGV as  it is today (still wondering where Embarc will land...)
> 2) _(If you already own a developer unit)_ *Buy into HGV Max for $7000 plus fees t*o get 6 month reservations and Diamond version of Open Season. 0 additional MF. Could add more resale HGV to ownership points once enrolled. Easy to exit.
> 3)* Buy resale Diamond. *Cost? What is typical annual MF cost for points to cover a week at Poipu or KBC + purchase of points? Benefit: 13 month reservations + Dia OS. Ease of Exit?
> 4) *Rent what you need. *Will your stays in Diamond be less than $7000 over the next 10 - 20 years.  How do Vegas cost/resale MF/points arbitrage relative to simply renting?


They've said Embarc aligns into HGVC vs HVC which theoretically means we can book club season as existing members.  That to me is the real indicator I would be looking at is if they try and extract extra fees to access additions to HGVC.  If they require Max to access the new resorts within my club then it tells me my place and I begin looking for my exit within HGVC.


----------



## dioxide45

natarajanv said:


> *HGV Max Reservations.*
> At six months (186) days prior to check-in, HGV Max Members may utilize ClubPoints to request an exchange into any resort available within the exchange program known as “The Club” operated by Diamond Resorts International Club, Inc.


Based on this, it seems it will just allow you to exchange into the already existing DRI exchange club? At least legally, it doesn't look like the DRI name is going away?


----------



## dougp26364

CalGalTraveler said:


> So the most cost effective options so far appear to be:
> 
> 1*) Do Nothing*. Enjoy HGV as  it is today (still wondering where Embarc will land...)
> 2) _(If you already own a developer unit)_ *Buy into HGV Max for $7000 plus fees t*o get 6 month reservations and Diamond version of Open Season. 0 additional MF. Could add more resale HGV to ownership points once enrolled. Easy to exit.
> 3)* Buy resale Diamond. *Cost? What is typical annual MF cost for points to cover a week at Poipu or KBC + purchase of points? Benefit: 13 month reservations + Dia OS. Ease of Exit?
> 4) *Rent what you need. *Will your stays in Diamond be less than $7000 over the next 10 - 20 years.  How do Vegas cost/resale MF/points arbitrage relative to simply renting?



The most economical avenue to get HVC properties is to buy resale trust points in the collection that fits your needs best. Then you get a 13 month booking window and save $6,999.

The $7,000 buy in for a 6 month booking window is the most overpriced POS offer I believe I’ve ever seen from a timeshare company.

At least I know not to waste my time or the sales staffs tine in an update.


----------



## brp

dougp26364 said:


> The most economical avenue to get HVC properties is to buy resale trust points in the collection that fits your needs best. Then you get a 13 month booking window and save $6,999.



Question is:: how may years will it take until the MFs from the additional timeshare purchase exceed the $7K? Of course, this applies only to folks with enough points in either program to satisfy their needs and no necessity for buying more. If one might need more then your suggestion is an easy win.

Cheers.


----------



## dayooper

brp said:


> Question is:: how may years will it take until the MFs from the additional timeshare purchase exceed the $7K? Of course, this applies only to folks with enough points in either program to satisfy their needs and no necessity for buying more. If one might need more then your suggestion is an easy win.
> 
> Cheers.



That 6 month window is the deal breaker. How many desirable resorts will be available at 6 months? Maybe it will be fine, but it seems like a lot to get resorts that you might not want to go to.


----------



## brp

dayooper said:


> That 6 month window is the deal breaker. How many desirable resorts will be available at 6 months? Maybe it will be fine, but it seems like a lot to get resorts that you might not want to go to.



Yeah, that was something that I, and others, posed in one of these threads previously. My case involved a couple of specific, certainly popular, resorts (P@P, KBC), but not necessarily at popular times. That could well be the deal breaker for us as well. But I just don't know.

Cheers.


----------



## NiteMaire

CalGalTraveler said:


> Diamond Owners: Does Diamond have the equivalent of last minute Open Season Rates? Are they worth it? Is there is availability at 6 months for Cabo Azul, Maui and Sedona during regular season.


As @geist1223 said yes. There are some unhappy DRI owners in FB group(s) since this will decrease the number of units available at the discounted rate.


brp said:


> I could possibly see the value here since added MFs for a separate DRI resale would eventually catch up with the $7K...except for the 6-month window. Would we really be able to get what we want (and we'd mainly be interested in Point@Poipu and KBC, although with good flexibility for travel dates).


These 2 aren't easy at 6 months within DeX (deeded owner--can't comment on DeX with points). I just checked and noticed some availability in DeX for the next 6 months:
P@P: 15 units
KBC: 9 units

If HGV Max members have access to these weeks (I don't know if they do), they'll likely go quickly.

With deeded weeks (and I think points as well), you can search 2 years out in DeX.  As expected, there's more availability the further out you search.


----------



## brp

NiteMaire said:


> These 2 aren't easy at 6 months within DeX (deeded owner--can't comment on DeX with points). I just checked and noticed some availability in DeX for the next 6 months:
> P@P: 15 units
> KBC: 9 units
> 
> If HGV Max members have access to these weeks (I don't know if they do), they'll likely go quickly.
> 
> With deeded weeks (and I think points as well), you can search 2 years out in DeX.  As expected, there's more availability the further out you search.



So I'm not completely clear about Dri versus Dex. My understanding is that P@P and KBC are in the same "collection" and, even resale, one could get into both of these, even if nowhere else. Is this the 13 months or 2 year thing? We can book a year out (we do 11 months for DVC now), so that would work for us. Just not sure of the nuances.

Cheers.


----------



## GT75

brp said:


> Question is:: how may years will it take until the MFs from the additional timeshare purchase exceed the $7K? Of course, this applies only to folks with enough points in either program to satisfy their needs and no necessity for buying more. If one might need more then your suggestion is an easy win.


But if you purchase into DRI, you are also getting something (basically another week's stay).


----------



## magmue

> P@P and KBC are in the same "collection"


Collections are different than deeds. It sounds like @NiteMaire is a deeded owner of a single DRI property - Sedona Summit (or maybe two deeds? Colonies at Williamsburg?). Anyway, a deeded owner is entitled to a week at their home resort every year, nothing more, nothing less. But DRI runs an internal exchange program for deeded owners, and that's what Nitemaire is referring to re: units visible within the DeX for deeded owners. There is a separate internal program for (I think) everyone else, who have points. The points system also has multiple "collections", where there is early access within your collection, if I understand it correctly.


----------



## Eric B

magmue said:


> It sounds like @NiteMaire is a deeded owner of a single DRI property - Sedona Summit (or maybe two deeds? Colonies at Williamsburg?)



Colonies at Williamsburg is a Vacation Village property, not a DRI property.


----------



## GT75

magmue said:


> But DRI runs an internal exchange program for deeded owners


Hopefully HGVC deeded owners will also have access to this internal exchange program.


----------



## magmue

> Hopefully HGVC deeded owners will also have access to this internal exchange program.


That would certainly make sense as a long term goal, if they can structure it as a replacement for RCI, owned by a rival. But I suspect they will squeeze as much juice as they can out of the Max intergration first.


----------



## NiteMaire

brp said:


> So I'm not completely clear about Dri versus Dex. My understanding is that P@P and KBC are in the same "collection" and, even resale, one could get into both of these, even if nowhere else. Is this the 13 months or 2 year thing? We can book a year out (we do 11 months for DVC now), so that would work for us. Just not sure of the nuances.





magmue said:


> Collections are different than deeds. It sounds like @NiteMaire is a deeded owner of a single DRI property - Sedona Summit (or maybe two deeds? Colonies at Williamsburg?). Anyway, a deeded owner is entitled to a week at their home resort every year, nothing more, nothing less. But DRI runs an internal exchange program for deeded owners, and that's what Nitemaire is referring to re: units visible within the DeX for deeded owners. There is a separate internal program for (I think) everyone else, who have points. The points system also has multiple "collections", where there is early access within your collection, if I understand it correctly.


My apologies, I should have been clearer.  @magmue is correct.  I was purely referring to the internal exchange system I have access to as a deeded owner at Sedona Summit.  If I owned a deed there or points in the Hawaii Collection, I'd have greater access to inventory at those 2 resorts.  Points owners also have access to inventory within DeX (presumably different inventory than deeded owners).
I must say though I'm impressed with P@P and KBC availability in DeX; it was a primary factor for us purchasing Sedona Summit.  While I don't have as much accessibility as deeded owners or HI Collection owners, there was enough availability to purchase SS. Here's a post about the cost to use DeX to exchange SS into P@P: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/h...iscussion-in-owner-update.332533/post-2746679
We can use DeX to exchange into those properties for much less than the cost of owning a deed there or points in HI Collection (don't know how it compares to the discounted cost for a checkin with 60 days).


----------



## youppi

In THE Club for 7 nights booking,
P@P: many dates in April, May and June 2022, few in July 2022, many in April and May 2023
KBC: many in May 2022, one in Nov 27 2022, few in end of March 2023, many in April and May 2023


----------



## CalGalTraveler

youppi said:


> In THE Club for 7 nights booking,
> P@P: many dates in April, May and June 2022, few in July 2022, many in April and May 2023
> KBC: many in May 2022, one in Nov 27 2022, few in end of March 2023, many in April and May 2023



Thanks.  How many DRI clubpoints are required for a week booking at these resorts and what is the MF/point in the Hawaii Collection?
What does it cost to pick up that many points resale?


----------



## youppi

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks.  How many DRI clubpoints are required for a week booking at these resorts and what is the MF/point in the Hawaii Collection?
> What does it cost to pick up that many points resale?





			https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/us-member-benefits-book-combined_24.pdf
		

Resale points are not in THE Club. So, just remove the THE Club fee from the MF https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...eK7b2lFwXV-U4W9W3hMcAiNbej8gAmOvP5YG/pubhtml#


----------



## NiteMaire

youppi said:


> In THE Club for 7 nights booking,
> P@P: many dates in April, May and June 2022, few in July 2022, many in April and May 2023
> KBC: many in May 2022, one in Nov 27 2022, few in end of March 2023, many in April and May 2023


So it seems the advantage for The Club is near-term availability.  To compare with DeX (deed) using your same format:
P@P: 3 in April 2022, 12 in May 2022, then none until late April 2023, many in May-June 2023
KBC: 9 in May 2022, then none until late March 2023, many in April-June 2023


----------



## Mongoose

colatown said:


> @#*×+ them.


The funny thing is, how many of the Diamond locations are up to HGVC quality?


----------



## Mongoose

youppi said:


> https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/us-member-benefits-book-combined_24.pdf
> 
> 
> Resale points are not in THE Club. So, just remove the THE Club fee from the MF https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...eK7b2lFwXV-U4W9W3hMcAiNbej8gAmOvP5YG/pubhtml#


OMG!  The "Benefits" book is incomprehensible.  I am so glad a dumped my Diamond week.  Just not worth the aggravation.


----------



## brp

GT75 said:


> But if you purchase into DRI, you are also getting something (basically another week's stay).



Right. I'm just talking about the case where one had enough points for their stays and just wanted more options. But this may make sense for us anyway.

Cheers.


----------



## brp

NiteMaire said:


> So it seems the advantage for The Club is near-term availability.  To compare with DeX (deed) using your same format:
> P@P: 3 in April 2022, 12 in May 2022, then none until late April 2023, many in May-June 2023
> KBC: 9 in May 2022, then none until late March 2023, many in April-June 2023



Are resorts only bookable by the week? I see weekly point totals, but not anything for days. HGVC, for example, allows a 3-day minimum and has point values for weekend and weekday days.

I'd still have to wrap my head around "points" and "deeds" and "The Club" and "DeX."

What I'd want to do is own somewhere where I could use P@P and KBC, ideally in smaller increments, but a week is OK. It sounds like one could own at Sedona for lower MFs and still get these. This works well in HGVC where I own Las Vegas and use in Kona.

Also, I see comments about short-term availability being greater than medium-term. But longer term is more what we would do...9 months or so if that can be done.

Cheers.


----------



## NiteMaire

brp said:


> Are resorts only bookable by the week? I see weekly point totals, but not anything for days. HGVC, for example, allows a 3-day minimum and has point values for weekend and weekday days.


For deeded week owners, resorts are only bookable by the week.  I defer to points owners, but I think they can reserve part of the week (I'm open to being wrong on this). @youppi @artringwald any insight?


brp said:


> What I'd want to do is own somewhere where I could use P@P and KBC, ideally in smaller increments, but a week is OK. It sounds like one could own at Sedona for lower MFs and still get these. This works well in HGVC where I own Las Vegas and use in Kona.


If you're okay with one week increments, Sedona Summit 2BR LO is a superb choice to trade into P@P and KBC.  We exchanged into P@P for Thanksgiving 2023.  See the link in post #41 above for the cost breakdown of doing it from Sedona to P@P.


----------



## youppi

brp said:


> Are resorts only bookable by the week? I see weekly point totals, but not anything for days. HGVC, for example, allows a 3-day minimum and has point values for weekend and weekday days.
> 
> I'd still have to wrap my head around "points" and "deeds" and "The Club" and "DeX."
> 
> What I'd want to do is own somewhere where I could use P@P and KBC, ideally in smaller increments, but a week is OK. It sounds like one could own at Sedona for lower MFs and still get these. This works well in HGVC where I own Las Vegas and use in Kona.
> 
> Also, I see comments about short-term availability being greater than medium-term. But longer term is more what we would do...9 months or so if that can be done.
> 
> Cheers.


In THE Club, DRI resorts can be booked per night with a minimum of 2 nights.
Sunday to Thursday nights are 10% of weekly points per night. Friday-Saturday nights are at 30% of weekly points.
If you book 7 nights with a checkin not from a normal checkin (normally Friday, Saturday or Sunday), the system revert to per night booking and as you can see, the total is 110% (5x10% + 2x30%). 
Same thing if you book 10 nights with a Sunday checkin, you will not pay a week + 3 nights (100% + 3x10% = 130%) but you will pay 10 nights (5x10%+2x30%+3x10% = 140%).


----------



## CalGalTraveler

So if I read the points reports correctly 1 week in a Hawaii Oceanfront 2 bdrm will run between 18,000 and 21,000 points. A one bedroom OF or less than peak season about 15500 points.

Backing out the club fee that's approx  $3248 to $3845/week for a 2 bdrm for 1 week peak.  And  sbout $2906 for a 1 bdrm 15,500 points or 2 bdrm high season (not peak). 

If I calculated this correctly, that's more expensive than our Westin Kaanapali OF on Maui which is $2800/week MF (and I thought that was expensive!).  However, the Westin can be locked off for $1400/week (1Bdrm/Studio) for a 2 week stay.

Lots to think about!

Do the new HGV 1.6x points now translate to Diamond points 1:1? If so, our HGV points from two different deeds, will barely get a 2 bdrm OF at P@P  for a week at 21,000  points. Yet within HGVC we can get a 2 bdrm on BI or Oahu with only one of those deeds points (old 9600 points).


----------



## nobodyhasthisname2

CalGalTraveler said:


> Do the new HGV 1.6x points now translate to Diamond points 1:1? If so, our HGV points from two different deeds, will barely get a 2 bdrm OF at P@P for a week at 21,000 points. Yet within HGVC we can get a 2 bdrm on BI or Oahu with only one of those deeds points (old 9600 points).



And does that mean DRI Max members are going to fill up the HGVC Hawaii resorts because it’s less points than the resorts in their own system?


----------



## NiteMaire

nobodyhasthisname2 said:


> And does that mean DRI Max members are going to fill up the HGVC Hawaii resorts because it’s less points than the resorts in their own system?


Depending on points, possibly.  However, presuming the same timeline applies, they won't be able to reserve until 6 months out which is well after HGVC owners have had ample opportunity.


----------



## Nowaker

CalGalTraveler said:


> Backing out the club fee that's approx $3248 to $3845/week for a 2 bdrm for 1 week peak.


If you own there, sure. Most Hawaiian deeds have a terrible MFpp. Making reservations using ClubPoints from Vegas deeds is how it's very cost effective.


----------



## Cewood

As an owner at West 57th, I just don't see the value in paying $7000 for a limited access to what seem to me to be inferior resorts.  Correct me if I am wrong, but the Diamond properties do not seem to be at the same level of quality as the HGVC resorts.  So why would I pay anything at all to have access to an inferior system of resorts?  No need to answer that rhetorical question!


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

brp said:


> Yeah, that was something that I, and others, posed in one of these threads previously. My case involved a couple of specific, certainly popular, resorts (P@P, KBC), but not necessarily at popular times. That could well be the deal breaker for us as well. But I just don't know.
> 
> Cheers.



We have similar thoughts.  There are a few resorts that interest me, but i would need to really understand what kind of access this will provide and what the actual availability is.  Our current needs are reasonably covered with HGV and MVC,  but have more choices is always fun.


----------



## GMan82

Cewood said:


> As an owner at West 57th, I just don't see the value in paying $7000 for a limited access to what seem to me to be inferior resorts.  Correct me if I am wrong, but the Diamond properties do not seem to be at the same level of quality as the HGVC resorts.  So why would I pay anything at all to have access to an inferior system of resorts?  No need to answer that rhetorical question!


I think there might be a few resorts in the DRI system that might be worth visiting, but there’s a reason that HGV is re-branding Diamond as HVC without the “Grand,” in that a lot of the resorts might not be up to par with HGVC in their opinion. $7000 is steep. It might be worth staying “Legacy” and renting at those places. I also would want to see how this program looks 6-12 months after implementation and gather some opinions, mostly from TUG posters. Buying in now seems like it would be a bit of a rushed decision with inadequate information. For the AI, I’m still awaiting word on my W 57th purchase on ROFR.


----------



## natarajanv

*New rule for converting to Hilton Honors:

HGVClub Legacy Members* and *HGV Max Legacy
Members* and select *HGV Max Members* may
convert ClubPoints (including borrowed Points)
into Hilton Honors Points on an annual basis. *All
other Members may convert ClubPoints into Hilton
Honors Points on an every other year basis*.

Based on their documentation, there are only 3 types of Members. Not sure how to interpret "all other members".


----------



## brp

natarajanv said:


> *New rule for converting to Hilton Honors:
> 
> HGVClub Legacy Members* and *HGV Max Legacy
> Members* and select *HGV Max Members* may
> convert ClubPoints (including borrowed Points)
> into Hilton Honors Points on an annual basis. *All
> other Members may convert ClubPoints into Hilton
> Honors Points on an every other year basis*.
> 
> Based on their documentation, there are only 3 types of Members. Not sure how to interpret "all other members".



There are *Members* (I think that's the term) for folks who are not Legacy, i.e. buy in after the "deadline" and have no Max affiliation. These would presumably be the ones impacted.

Cheers.


----------



## natarajanv

brp said:


> There are *Members* (I think that's the term) for folks who are not Legacy, i.e. buy in after the "deadline" and have no Max affiliation. These would presumably be the ones impacted.
> 
> Cheers.


But the document says those are called HGVClub Legacy members though....

*Members who do not qualify for HGV Max benefits may be referred to as “HGVClub Legacy Members.” *
HGV Max Members, HGV Max Legacy Members and HGVClub Legacy Members are all “Members.”


----------



## WORLD TRAVELER

There is further explanation in the Member Guide that General Members are those who purchase resale HGVC after Max Program announcement (April 4, 2022). Legacy Members are those members who were recorded owners of HGVC contracts prior to Max Program Announcement (April 4, 2022). Legacy Grandfathered Benefits are lost upon transfer of ownership to new purchasers except in the case of transfer to immediate family members.


----------



## WORLD TRAVELER

Grandfathered Benefits currently revolve around Hilton Honors points conversion.  Grandfathered Legacy members may convert every year.  New Members may only convert Every Other Year.  There is mention in the Guide about limits on Open Season Usage but the limits are not explicitly listed as they are with Hilton Honors points conversion.


----------



## brp

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> There is further explanation in the Member Guide that General Members are those who purchase resale HGVC after Max Program announcement (April 4, 2022). Legacy Members are those members who were recorded owners of HGVC contracts prior to Max Program Announcement (April 4, 2022). Legacy Grandfathered Benefits are lost upon transfer of ownership to new purchasers except in the case of transfer to immediate family members.



Yup. That makes the fourth category, as noted.

Cheers.


----------



## geist1223

Somebody asked if DRI had discounted stays. Here is a partial list. Of course to see the whole list you have to be able to sign on to DRI.

Las Vegas up to 75% off thru July
South Lake Tahoe up to 60% off thru April.
Cabo Azul up to 55% off thru May.
Powhaten up to 60% off thru May.
Sedona up to 55% off thru April and a $50 Dining Card.
Cancun up to 50% off thru May.
Modern Honolulu up to 35% off thru May.

This is only about 1/4 of the Deals listed. Resorts can be added daily.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> Grandfathered Benefits currently revolve around Hilton Honors points conversion.  Grandfathered Legacy members may convert every year.  New Members may only convert Every Other Year.  There is mention in the Guide about limits on Open Season Usage but the limits are not explicitly listed as they are with Hilton Honors points conversion.



I believe the bHC (NYC, DC) property 50:1 annual Hilton conversion is baked into the deed just as AI. However I haven't read the find print in a long time.

They sure are making this complicated for IT. First they separated bHC points from Club creating a 2 x 3 year set of buckets. Now this???? I expect more calls to Customer Service to correct buckets. We already must do this today with bHC/Club to ensure we are putting the right points years into a reservation.


----------



## nobodyhasthisname2

NiteMaire said:


> Depending on points, possibly.  However, presuming the same timeline applies, they won't be able to reserve until 6 months out which is well after HGVC owners have had ample opportunity.


Except in the case of the Grand Islander and Hokulani, where we will all get access at the same time....


----------



## brp

CalGalTraveler said:


> They sure are making this complicated for IT. First they separated bHC points from Club creating a 2 x 3 year set of buckets. Now this???? I expect more calls to Customer Service to correct buckets. We already must do this today with bHC/Club to ensure we are putting the right points years into a reservation.



Maybe. It depends upon how they implemented it. Going from 1 bucket to >1 bucket can (and should) be done in a general way such that adding more buckets is straightforward from a backend architecture. Now, display on the website is a different issue and that may suffer some growing pains.

Cheers.


----------



## SmithOp

I don't care about HHonors conversion, no great loss there as a resale owner. 

I did it once with expiring bonus points years ago. I have since sold that original developer purchase that netted the bonus points. I wonder if they will still consider me a retail owner and offer the $7k Max sign up?


Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


----------



## GMan82

I wonder when HGV will send an official email out to explain the quirks of the new program


----------



## Cewood

Is there any indication of whether the DRI resorts will still be available for RCI trade if you are not an HGVC Max member?  I don't see any mention of Max-related changes in RCI rules.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

GMan82 said:


> I wonder when HGV will send an official email out to explain the quirks of the new program



I have been wondering that as well.. Right now everyone here on TUG and the various FB groups is parsing out the new program based on what's published.  There may be a slight difference in how HGV interprets some of this..  

I am hoping they do actually roll out a general communication with information, and not just expect everyone to attend an update for details...


----------



## dayooper

GMan82 said:


> I wonder when HGV will send an official email out to explain the quirks of the new program





1Kflyerguy said:


> I have been wondering that as well.. Right now everyone here on TUG and the various FB groups is parsing out the new program based on what's published.  There may be a slight difference in how HGV interprets some of this..
> 
> I am hoping they do actually roll out a general communication with information, and not just expect everyone to attend an update for details...



I have heard April 15 being the day the the website is launched. Maybe that's the day we will see more info.

The issue I would have is the 10 month booking date for Elite members. That would eliminate several properties as options for us regulars. I understand why they would do that (don't agree with it), but that would be the biggest limitation to the legacy program. I'm sure we can find way, buy that makes hard to book resorts even harder for us. Even new resorts not being available isn't that big of an issue but to pay more for what we already had is a serious steaming pile.

HGV Max is why I would have a very hard time paying developer prices. All the money some families spent on their deeds and now they have to pay more to be part of the new program? I would not be happy one bit. I'm pretty disappointed with how this was rolled out but they really don't care about someone like me. It's fine, I'll enjoy what I have and use my money on other trips. Maybe I'll even take a dab into Marriott with a resale in Hilton Head.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

It appears that the trend for developers is:

1) *Convince owners to buy more: *upgrade, new programs etc.  Sticking with a deeded week will not hurt you unless you have a low value week.
2) *Limiting resale capability* - to date HGV has been generous with resale relative to competitors. They are now catching up to MVC and Wyndham limitations.
3) *Closing loopholes*
4)* Beefing up elite programs* to make it worthwhile to buy from the developer.
5) *Selling fear that you won't have access to inventory* (reality: at $20 - $30k program buy-in to reach elite it will take years to affect inventory). Fear is a big MVC message with Vistana right now. Don't believe it.

I was disappointed to see that there was little benefit to buying our first unit retail -we watched the value of what we purchased plummet. Making retail buyers feel stupid is not a good strategy.  This is now coming back to roost with these new rules and we may now see some benefit from our original retail purchase.

Just as points trading programs change, resales strategies need to change. Nothing is forever. Buying deeds where you want to go and trade in RCI/DEX is still a viable strategy if you don't want to invest in the new program. You can simply use what you own.

It appears that HGV are grandfathering resales - something they don't have to do. We should feel good that we will get many years of enjoyment at resale bargain basement prices. Nothing is forever. When it doesn't work anymore, move on or change your strategy. Smile because you have saved thousands and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.


----------



## iiderman

CalGalTraveler said:


> It appears that the trend for developers is:
> 
> 1) *Convince owners to buy more: *upgrade, new programs etc.  Sticking with a deeded week will not hurt you unless you have a low value week.
> 2) *Limiting resale capability* - to date HGV has been generous with resale relative to competitors. They are now catching up to MVC and Wyndham limitations.
> 3) *Closing loopholes*
> 4)* Beefing up elite programs* to make it worthwhile to buy from the developer.
> 5) *Selling fear that you won't have access to inventory* (reality: at $20 - $30k program buy-in to reach elite it will take years to affect inventory). Fear is a big MVC message with Vistana right now. Don't believe it.
> 
> I was disappointed to see that there was little benefit to buying our first unit retail -we watched the value of what we purchased plummet. Making retail buyers feel stupid is not a good strategy.  This is now coming back to roost with these new rules and we may now see some benefit from our original retail purchase.
> 
> Just as points trading programs change, resales strategies need to change. Nothing is forever. Buying deeds where you want to go and trade in RCI/DEX is still a viable strategy if you don't want to invest in the new program. You can simply use what you own.
> 
> It appears that HGV are grandfathering resales - something they don't have to do. We should feel good that we will get many years of enjoyment at resale bargain basement prices. Nothing is forever. When it doesn't work anymore, move on or change your strategy. Smile because you have saved thousands and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.



One of the “loopholes” they just closed; resale purchases in Scotland and Southwest Florida that used to count towards elite.. NO LONGER allowed effective April 4


----------



## Nowaker

iiderman said:


> resale purchases in Scotland and Southwest Florida that used to count towards elite.. NO LONGER allowed effective April 4



Where is it stated exactly? Can you pleas cite a rule?

BTW, I'm patiently waiting to see if my HGVC UK purchase made a month ago will qualify me to HGV Max. At this very moment, even HGVC UK doesn't know.

<Nowaker> Are you guys considered a "HGV Max authorized sales center", as defined in HGV Club Reference 2022?
<My HGVC UK contact> All details to still be finalised but my understanding at present is that as we are mainly involved with resales not classed as HGV MAX authorised centre.
<Nowaker> Thanks. When you have more information, please let me know.
<My HGVC UK contact> I certainly will. Gradual roll out and still many details to be finalised with integration of resorts and how will be processed. Apologies I am unable to clarify at present as waiting for information coming through.


----------



## GT75

iiderman said:


> resale purchases in Scotland and Southwest Florida that used to count towards elite.. NO LONGER allowed effective April 4


How are you coming to that conclusion?


----------



## clominac

Question though, if member points went up by 60% and points to stay went up by 60%, isn't this the same as currency adjustment or printing more money? Doesn't that devalue what you had?


----------



## brp

clominac said:


> Question though, if member points went up by 60% and points to stay went up by 60%, isn't this the same as currency adjustment or printing more money? Doesn't that devalue what you had?



Nope. It simply keeps parity within HGVC. The same number of points (adjusted) get the same thing (adjusted). What it does do is harmonise with DRI levels, apparently. But all is unchanged within HGVC.

Cheers.


----------



## PigsDad

clominac said:


> Question though, if member points went up by 60% and points to stay went up by 60%, isn't this the same as currency adjustment or printing more money? *Doesn't that devalue what you had?*


Why would it devalue anything if both your points and the points required for a stay went up by the same percentage?  This is simple math.

Kurt


----------



## CalGalTraveler

GT75 said:


> How are you coming to that conclusion?



Told by a sales rep?


----------



## iiderman

GT75 said:


> How are you coming to that conclusion?


We recently purchased in SW Florida (settled in March). I called my sales person April 4 to ask about Max and elite going forward and he said they had just been notified by corporate that any purchases coming out of their offices would not qualify for EITHER


----------



## iiderman

iiderman said:


> We recently purchased in SW Florida (settled in March). I called my sales person April 4 to ask about Max and elite going forward and he said they had just been notified by corporate that any purchases coming out of their offices would not qualify for EITHER


Same thing with all the resellers in the Scotland offices.  I wish it was a laughing matter but Hilton is finally doing what the others have done making resales restricted


----------



## GT75

iiderman said:


> We recently purchased in SW Florida (settled in March). I called my sales person April 4 to ask about Max and elite going forward and he said they had just been notified by corporate that any purchases coming out of their offices would not qualify for EITHER


Thanks for the update.   Did that also include your recent purchase?


----------



## iiderman

GT75 said:


> Thanks for the update.   Did that also include your recent purchase?


Our purchase was to get us to elite premier and because the sales contract was signed in February it will be honored as such.


----------



## natarajanv

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> Grandfathered Benefits currently revolve around Hilton Honors points conversion.  Grandfathered Legacy members may convert every year.  New Members may only convert Every Other Year.  There is mention in the Guide about limits on Open Season Usage but the limits are not explicitly listed as they are with Hilton Honors points conversion.



From Page 21:

Persons who acquire their ownership interest from the resale market may receive limited Club benefits, including, but not limited to, *restrictions on the ability to convert ClubPoints into Hilton Honors Points on an every-use-year basis and on the use of Open Season rental benefits*. Interests acquired on the resale market may not qualify for additional benefits, services or recognition programs or tiers.


----------



## GT75

And then there are these statements from page 17:

_The HGV Max program has no pre-determined termination date and may continue until such time as Hilton Grand Vacations decides to terminate the program with or without notice._​​_HGV Max benefits are subject to availability and may change from time to time. There is no cash value or redemption for unused HGV Max benefits._​


----------



## GT75

iiderman said:


> Same thing with all the resellers in the Scotland offices. I wish it was a laughing matter but Hilton is finally doing what the others have done making resales restricted


The Scotland resorts currently still show up on page 15 as qualifying for elite status. (now I am not saying that can not be changed)   Surprisingly, the Florida gulf resorts have never been on the list as far back as 2010 (that is my earliest rule book resource).

It is always interesting what can be found (or not found) in the rules.


----------



## GMan82

GT75 said:


> The Scotland resorts currently still show up on page 15 as qualifying for elite status. (now I am not saying that can not be changed)   Surprisingly, the Florida gulf resorts have never been on the list as far back as 2010 (that is my earliest rule book resource).
> 
> It is always interesting what can be found (or not found) in the rules.


But is that for retail purchases only?


----------



## GT75

GMan82 said:


> But is that for retail purchases only?


Scotland resorts only have resale (they were originally sold about 30 years ago).


----------



## iiderman

GT75 said:


> The Scotland resorts currently still show up on page 15 as qualifying for elite status. (now I am not saying that can not be changed)   Surprisingly, the Florida gulf resorts have never been on the list as far back as 2010 (that is my earliest rule book resource).
> 
> It is always interesting what can be found (or not found) in the rules.


I guess there’s no knowing for sure until you attempt to purchase Scotland today and see what your sales contract confirms.  All I can tell you is I did get elite through Southwest Florida resale via HGV sales person but was told that with the new changeover I could not purchase anymore points that would qualify me for the higher tier Centum.


----------



## natarajanv

GT75 said:


> The Scotland resorts currently still show up on page 15 as qualifying for elite status. (now I am not saying that can not be changed)   Surprisingly, the Florida gulf resorts have never been on the list as far back as 2010 (that is my earliest rule book resource).
> 
> It is always interesting what can be found (or not found) in the rules.



I see Bay Club as well on page 14


----------



## iiderman

iiderman said:


> I guess there’s no knowing for sure until you attempt to purchase Scotland today and see what your sales contract confirms.  All I can tell you is I did get elite through Southwest Florida resale via HGV sales person but was told that with the new changeover I could not purchase anymore points that would qualify me for the higher tier Centum.


Also to clarify.. I was elite plus with points from ALL developer purchases.. purchased in 2000 and before TUG.. so our developer prices have paid for themselves in the last 22 years.  I believe rules are different when you have already purchased some or most of your points retail and then buy in-house resale to get to the next elite level.. this again is all before the HGV Max train wreck


----------



## audirt

dayooper said:


> 10 month booking date for Elite members



Wait... I think I missed something.  What is this 10-month window for Elite members?  I don't see that outlined on the Club Reference PDF.  Sorry if I missed it -- I'm trying to keep up


----------



## GT75

audirt said:


> Wait... I think I missed something. What is this 10-month window for Elite members? I don't see that outlined on the Club Reference PDF. Sorry if I missed it -- I'm trying to keep up


Yes, you are way behind.   No, seriously, that is current information coming from sales.    I would speculate that something might be announced on rule changes on April 15.


----------



## audirt

GT75 said:


> Yes, you are way behind.   No, seriously, that is current information coming from sales.    I would speculate that something might be announced on rule changes on April 15.


Welp, guess I'll never get to use my points to go skiing again


----------



## CalGalTraveler

What are the points levels and tiers for elite under the new points system? Do they expect to announce the new benefits on April 15 as well?


----------



## audirt

CalGalTraveler said:


> What are the points levels and tiers for elite under the new points system? Do they expect to announce the new benefits on April 15 as well?



I might ask this in a separate thread, but a salesman once told me that direct family members were allowed to add other direct family members to their deeds.  Anyone know if this was/is true?  My wife's parents own 5500 (old) retail points.  Those points, combined with my current ownership, would put us less than 2k (old) points from the (old) Elite status -- *if* I can find a way to combine the accounts.  (Both ownerships -- mine and theirs --were retail purchases, FWIW.)


----------



## PigsDad

CalGalTraveler said:


> What are the points levels and tiers for elite under the new points system? Do they expect to announce the new benefits on April 15 as well?


What I saw was that they are just adding a new elite level on top of the existing three elite levels, and renaming all of them.  I saw the new top level was 100K points, and the second to top was 54K points (which equals the 34K Elite Premier level pre- point inflation).

Kurt


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Thanks Kurt,  Do you know the lower tiers for the rest of us?  e.g. was it 14,000 old points and 24,000? I can do the 1.6x math but cannot find this easily in the guide or the stickys.


----------



## PigsDad

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks Kurt,  Do you know the lower tiers for the rest of us?  e.g. was it 14,000 old points and 24,000? I can do the 1.6x math but cannot find this easily in the guide or the stickys.


Yes, the old point levels were 14K for Elite, 24K for Elite Plus and 34K for Elite Premier.

Kurt


----------



## natarajanv

Looking at this chart, there might be 6 levels:


----------



## Nowaker

natarajanv said:


> 6 levels


Shit level and 5 real levels, is what you're really saying.


----------



## SmithOp

Nowaker said:


> Shit level and 5 real levels, is what you're really saying.


hey they are giving us one free guest certificate, that's no shit!

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


----------



## Mongoose

I have the 


natarajanv said:


> I see Bay Club as well on page 14


I Have the Bay Club.  do you have personal experience?


----------



## hurnik

So the basic crux of the situation is that us HGV members (pre grandfather phase) continue (so far) to book HGV like usual.
If we want DRI resorts, we'll either have to buy DRI, Purchase Max, or possibly if the resort is in RCI, book it that way.

It seems it doesn't (IMO) make sense to spend $7k for DRI access and I'd be better off using RCI (if possible) or buying resale DRI?

Although I know I tried to put an OGS in for Cabo Azul in RCI (last year, maybe?) and the system wouldn't let me.  Called and the rep tried doing it as well and it wouldn't let her.  She dug into it and said the resort wasn't "in" the RCI system or something similar (I know it's in Interval) so I wonder if that was something to do with DRI/HGV merger?  Dunno.  But she thought it was weird that the resort was in the list, but unable to be booked/OGS'd.

BUT that was a while ago (that's one of the few DRI resorts I'd be interested in)

I've never been able to book via Interval for that resort, either.  (shows up in the list, but never get a match with my trades)


----------



## escanoe

hurnik said:


> So the basic crux of the situation is that us HGV members (pre grandfather phase) continue (so far) to book HGV like usual.
> If we want DRI resorts, we'll either have to buy DRI, Purchase Max, or possibly if the resort is in RCI, book it that way.
> 
> It seems it doesn't (IMO) make sense to spend $7k for DRI access and I'd be better off using RCI (if possible) or buying resale DRI?
> 
> Although I know I tried to put an OGS in for Cabo Azul in RCI (last year, maybe?) and the system wouldn't let me.  Called and the rep tried doing it as well and it wouldn't let her.  She dug into it and said the resort wasn't "in" the RCI system or something similar (I know it's in Interval) so I wonder if that was something to do with DRI/HGV merger?  Dunno.  But she thought it was weird that the resort was in the list, but unable to be booked/OGS'd.
> 
> BUT that was a while ago (that's one of the few DRI resorts I'd be interested in)
> 
> I've never been able to book via Interval for that resort, either.  (shows up in the list, but never get a match with my trades)



The RCI OGS system is inherently buggy, but usually works for me if I wait a while after having trouble.

There are 16 Cabo Azul (#DN82) check-in nights available on RCI right now. They are all studios. It did let me add the resort to a previously created OGS. For the heck of it, I will see if it eventually hits a 2 BR. For no more exchanging to DRI than I would do through HGV Max, it is going to be way cheaper for me to pay RCI exchange fees and resort fees. Also, I still think our whole HGV family will eventually be headed toward the DeX exchange .... after they sell HGV Max upgrades for a while.




Note: It is also available in the HGVC portal, point values above are "RCI Points"


----------



## escanoe

Since the post above drove me to both my RCI Points Account and the HGVC RCI Portal, I have made an interesting discovery.

While the Historic Powhatan Resort in Williamsburg has recently been rebranded HGV, it shows up with a ton of availability in my RCI Points account and shows NO availability through the HGVC Portal.

*HGVC RCI Portal:*




*
Regular RCI Points Account:*





Note: Because of the high resort fee ($25/night) in the overbuilt and competitive Williamsburg market, there is usually a glut of available inventory on RCI and it gets discounted significantly as check-in dates approach.


----------



## edboyd59

audirt said:


> I might ask this in a separate thread, but a salesman once told me that direct family members were allowed to add other direct family members to their deeds.  Anyone know if this was/is true?  My wife's parents own 5500 (old) retail points.  Those points, combined with my current ownership, would put us less than 2k (old) points from the (old) Elite status -- *if* I can find a way to combine the accounts.  (Both ownerships -- mine and theirs --were retail purchases, FWIW.)


I am a DR owner but I think I saw something similar in the HGV Club Guide. Family members can gift their ownership to family members at no cost. I think that this is what you are looking for. Once combined, the annual maintenance fee information usually includes the cost per point, so if your wife's parents wanted to do this, you could work out an agreement in which they pay their share and you pay yours of the annual fee. Just make sure that you and your wife stay together, or things could get really complicated for everyone involved. ;-)


----------



## Sandy VDH

It looks like they added a new level below the existing 14K now 22.8K Elite (base) and a new 100K level above the existing Elite Premier.

I should assume that having MAX also allows you access to DRI only at the 6 month mark as well, if you added that feature. I haven't really looked at the complete list of DRI properties, but I do know of only a few that I am interested in.

The only thing that I like about MAX is getting the unlimited reservations fees, I would prefer that option, but the ROI for $7K to get it is decades.  Be interested in hearing if Scotland Resale door has closed for sure, as I'd rather do that route, but I really don't need more points.


----------



## Nowaker

edboyd59 said:


> you could work out an agreement in which they pay their share and you pay yours of the annual fee


Also, only one yearly club fee, not two, so y'all can split that.


----------



## SmithOp

I've stayed at several DRI resorts using other trading systems, Interval and GPX, so there have been deposits in various systems in the past.  It will be interesting to see if any show up in the future, or if they all go to Max.


----------



## NiteMaire

hurnik said:


> Although I know I tried to put an OGS in for Cabo Azul in RCI (last year, maybe?) and the system wouldn't let me. Called and the rep tried doing it as well and it wouldn't let her. She dug into it and said the resort wasn't "in" the RCI system or something similar (I know it's in Interval) so I wonder if that was something to do with DRI/HGV merger? Dunno. But she thought it was weird that the resort was in the list, but unable to be booked/OGS'd.
> 
> BUT that was a while ago (that's one of the few DRI resorts I'd be interested in)
> 
> I've never been able to book via Interval for that resort, either. (shows up in the list, but never get a match with my trades)


Within DeX, I see 1902 units from Jr Suite to 2BR available for exchange.  I'm sure there's more since I don't own there on in the Collection.
While it may not equate to what HGV Max members would see, I see 279 units from Jr Suite to 2BR in the next 6 months.  
Either way, HGVC owners desiring to go to Cabo Azul would be much better off purchasing DRI deed/points or HGV Max.  The unknown is which one is better.  My gut tells me DRI deed or points.  From a cost perspective, I'd go with a deed.  From a flexibility perspective, I'd go with points.


----------



## NiteMaire

SmithOp said:


> I've stayed at several DRI resorts using other trading systems, Interval and GPX, so there have been deposits in various systems in the past. It will be interesting to see if any show up in the future, or if they all go to Max.


That is the crux of my questions about which internal system(s) will get the unsold DRI inventory. I also wonder if inventory within 6 months could be in DeX and Max simultaneously (if they can tie the back ends together).


----------



## ocdb8r

hurnik said:


> It seems it doesn't (IMO) make sense to spend $7k for DRI access and I'd be better off using RCI (if possible) or buying resale DRI?



...not just "access" but access only at 6 months.  I feel like this is a hard sell even to uneducated owners.  You could get a lot of resale DRI and have much better access (timing wise) to DRI resorts.  

That means the benefits at best are the Resort Reservation Fees and a guest certificate or two (unless you're going to buy up to one of the highest elite levels).  Not much value here...and if you're already Elite, I see virtually nothing on offer other than the above mentioned (very limited) "access" to DRI resorts.  Seems like a very hard sell for existing HGVC members.  

On the DRI side, also limited value.  Access to HGVC resorts at 6 months?  Again, for 7k you could get a decent HGVC unit and get 9 months access to the whole club (plus a Home Priority window wherever you purchase).


----------



## escanoe

SmithOp said:


> I've stayed at several DRI resorts using other trading systems, Interval and GPX, so there have been deposits in various systems in the past.  It will be interesting to see if any show up in the future, or if they all go to Max.



As long as people in HGVC or DRI are able to trade outside the HGV family, DRI and HGVC units will have to be deposited into an external exchange (currently mostly RCI) to balance out owners exchanging out of the system.

So, RCI DRI inventory is not going to magically disappear in RCI because of HGV Max.

(Note: I still do not understand how HGVC and DRI inventory traded through HGV Max will be rebalanced, and I believe they must establish some system to do that. It would mess things up too much in either system and be unfair to owners if there is not a way to ensure equilibrium of trading between the two systems.)


----------



## iiderman

escanoe said:


> As long as people in HGVC or DRI are able to trade outside the HGV family, DRI and HGVC units will have to be deposited into an external exchange (currently mostly RCI) to balance out owners exchanging out of the system.
> 
> So, RCI DRI inventory is not going to magically disappear in RCI because of HGV Max.
> 
> (Note: I still do not understand how HGVC and DRI inventory traded through HGV Max will be rebalanced, and I believe they must establish some system to do that. It would mess things up too much in either system and be unfair to owners if there is not a way to ensure equilibrium of trading between the two systems.)


one of the ways to build up that inventory will be by exercising ROFR on the resale market which they have not been doing aggressively.. but, based on feedback from some of the resale agents on Facebook like judy k, HGV is doing just that now


----------



## Nowaker

escanoe said:


> So, RCI DRI inventory is not going to magically disappear in RCI because of HGV Max.


Exactly. Whenever a HGV owner makes an RCI booking, or a points deposit, HGVCorp must make a matching deposit of some inventory into RCI. The amount of HGVC inventory in RCI is proportional to the amount of RCI deposits and bookings.


----------



## Nowaker

iiderman said:


> based on feedback from some of the resale agents on Facebook like judy k, HGV is doing just that now


A single ROFR excercised is not news. Las Palmeras 3 BR Gold was exercised at $500. HGV probably needed some inventory - they must have something to sell, and this is a good deed.


----------



## dayooper

escanoe said:


> (Note: I still do not understand how HGVC and DRI inventory traded through HGV Max will be rebalanced, and I believe they must establish some system to do that. It would mess things up too much in either system and be unfair to owners if there is not a way to ensure equilibrium of trading between the two systems.)



If they are selling points, shouldn't there be a trust? Earlier in the year, @dioxide45 did a search for new trusts in the Orlando area and didn't find any. If there is a trust, it has to be officially listed somewhere and since Orlando is where HGVC is located, you would think it would be there. Could they be using the DRI trust? The Embarc trust?

When this years Disclosure statement came out, there were some discrepancies with the numbers. Ocean Enclave, Chicago, Elara and possibly Liberty Square were all listed as less units as was to be believed. Ocean Enclave was for sure as it had dropped from 330 to 112. Could this be where some of the inventory is?









						Number of Units at each HGVC Resort - updated
					

Number of Units at each HGVC Resort  2022 SOURCE: HGVClub Disclosure Statement 2022 (updates in Orange Font)  2019 Source: HGVC Form 10-K filed on February 28, 2019 (pages 41 - 42)  As of December 30, 2018, our resorts included the following locations and units:  Property Name / Ownership(1) /...




					tugbbs.com
				




I know there is more information coming, but this could be anything from a new trust to just a mechanism for cross booking the system. I think with everything so new, salespeople are stretching the truth because there is no solid information. Hopefully, there will be more substantial information in the future.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I certainly hope it is a cross booking mechanism. If it is a trust - that opens a can of worms.


----------



## GT75

CalGalTraveler said:


> I certainly hope it is a cross booking mechanism.


I am fairly certain that it isn't a trust, only cross booking. If it was a trust then there would be annual MFs.    In addition,  new HGVC *deeds* purchased after Jan 4th (I think that was the date) would be included in HGV Max again without anything additionally (such as trust MFs).


----------



## ocdb8r

escanoe said:


> As long as people in HGVC or DRI are able to trade outside the HGV family, DRI and HGVC units will have to be deposited into an external exchange (currently mostly RCI) to balance out owners exchanging out of the system.
> 
> So, RCI DRI inventory is not going to magically disappear in RCI because of HGV Max.



Yes, but if more trades are done internally (e.g. no need to trade via RCI to get into DRI resorts, and vice versa, then that could impact RCI inventory.  Agree there's no chance of it completely drying up, but it could be slightly impacted.



escanoe said:


> (Note: I still do not understand how HGVC and DRI inventory traded through HGV Max will be rebalanced, and I believe they must establish some system to do that. It would mess things up too much in either system and be unfair to owners if there is not a way to ensure equilibrium of trading between the two systems.)



There is a lot of "waste" in the system if you look at how many last minute weeks there are often available (in HGVC at least).  All of those, plus developer inventory, give a lot of slack for HGVC to "balance" as necessary (and as such true "equilibrium" likely not strictly necessary).



dayooper said:


> If they are selling points, shouldn't there be a trust? Earlier in the year, @dioxide45 did a search for new trusts in the Orlando area and didn't find any. If there is a trust, it has to be officially listed somewhere and since Orlando is where HGVC is located, you would think it would be there. Could they be using the DRI trust? The Embarc trust?



The "points" product will be one of the various (existing) DRI trusts.  HGVC made clear during the acquisition and early announcements that it intended to continue to sell HGVC/bHC as a weeks based "premium" product (with it's existing, now 1.6x, points overlay).  It will use the DRI points product as a lower point of entry for the market.

This is not actually dissimilar from how the MVC system works - there is a mix of weeks based owners and points based owners, with the former having the option to "elect" for points or book their owned week.  The difference is MVC resorts can either be weeks owned by individuals or weeks put into a trust.  HGVC will simply operate in a birfurcated system with DRI being all points and HGVC being all weeks (and as a result each having their own systems for internal use, with "Max" as the overlay).


----------



## GT75

Sandy VDH said:


> Be interested in hearing if Scotland Resale door has closed for sure, as I'd rather do that route, but I really don't need more points.


A TUGGER email the Scotland office and was informed that inventory sold will still qualify for HGV Elite status but they are not HGV Max authorized seller.


----------



## WORLD TRAVELER

GT75 said:


> I TUGGER email the Scotland office and was informed that inventory sold will still qualify for HGV Elite status but they are not HGV Max authorized seller.


This is great news to know that purchasing Scotland can still be used to qualify for Elite or move up the Elite scale!!  Do you know of the current HGVC contact for Scotland?


----------



## Nowaker

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> Do you know of the current HGVC contact for Scotland?


$5.5k out the door for 11,200 pts and only $904.59 MF ($0.081 MFpp) - I purchased in February. Someone on FB group told me they paid $500 more than what I paid. So $6k today I guess.


----------



## letsgobobby

Nowaker said:


> $5.5k out the door for 11,200 pts and only $904.59 MF ($0.081 MFpp) - I purchased in February. Someone on FB group told me they paid $500 more than what I paid. So $6k today I guess.


Is that new or old points?


----------



## GT75

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> Do you know of the current HGVC contact for Scotland?


Craigendarroch - John Pringle (john.pringle@hgv.com)
Columbridge - Sue Smith (sue.smith@hgv.com)

Please note that one of the FB groups has been promoting Scotland resorts so it looks like pricing has increased slightly in the past few months.



letsgobobby said:


> Is that new or old points?


New (7K old pts)


----------



## Great3

SmithOp said:


> hey they are giving us one free guest certificate, that's no shit!
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk



My question is that one Free Guess Cert is only if you are HGV Max, or also for being HGV Legacy Members also.  I know it's about Elite Levels, and as Resale owners, belong to a crappy level!  Maybe there's an even crappier level... not HGV Max and no free 1 guest cert (so 7 levels, not 6 levels)!!!

Great3


----------



## SmithOp

You might be right, the bargain basement level for deplorables.


----------



## escanoe

ocdb8r said:


> There is a lot of "waste" in the system if you look at how many last minute weeks there are often available (in HGVC at least).  All of those, plus developer inventory, give a lot of slack for HGVC to "balance" as necessary (and as such true "equilibrium" likely not strictly necessary).



I have no doubt there is waste in the system. Owner/developer inventory that would otherwise be rented or used for promotion could help even things out.

However, using "waste" in the sytem is highly suspect to me. An empty room is cheaper (on the cost side) than one somebody is staying in. If usage is significantly heavier on one side of the equation than the other .... that will add artificially high costs to the side being more heavily used and artificially low costs to the side being traded into less. In my mind the cross booking stytem needs to operate something like an exchange in terms of balancing inventory. I guess it could be done in a financial manner by charging higher MFs on one side .... but that is grossly unfair to those not in HGV Max.


----------



## Mongoose

natarajanv said:


> Looking at this chart, there might be 6 levels:
> 
> View attachment 51080


Geez, you would think at the 100,000+ point level there would be no junk fees.


----------



## Nowaker

escanoe said:


> An empty room is cheaper (on the cost side) than one somebody is staying in.



Yep! MFs are paid whether someone stays in the unit or not, so the resort got its money anyway.

Moreover, last minute vacancies can be used in Open Season. That is pure cash for HGV and resort (with a split being unknown to us).

The cost for HGVCorp is where a room is empty AND it's unsold as of January 1st. HGV must pay the same MF as regular owners on their unsold inventory. They're not exempt, though on each $100 paid in MF, some percentage goes back to them in management fees. But still has to be paid.


----------



## Cyberc

Does anyone know or maybe a qualified guess if  those of us that pay and uses the AI booking fee can continue to do so with the Max coming?


----------



## dayooper

Cyberc said:


> Does anyone know or maybe a qualified guess if  those of us that pay and uses the AI booking fee can continue to do so with the Max coming?



I would think so. That’s part of the bHC system. It seems like they are keeping most, if not all of the rules for Legacy HGVC owners so I would assume you should be fine.


----------



## Cyberc

dayooper said:


> I would think so. That’s part of the bHC system. It seems like they are keeping most, if not all of the rules for Legacy HGVC owners so I would assume you should be fine.


Thanks, fingers crossed.


----------



## Eric B

Cyberc said:


> Does anyone know or maybe a qualified guess if  those of us that pay and uses the AI booking fee can continue to do so with the Max coming?



So far it hasn't changed.  Page 24 of the updated Club Rules says the following (emphasis added):

*Fee Schedule for HGV Club Legacy Members *

Annual Club Dues are $193 per membership account for Club Members residing in the United States or Canada and $227 (¥25,521) for Members residing outside the United States or Canada. Owners at select properties have the option to pay “Inclusive Club Dues” of $325 for Members residing in the U.S. or Canada and $351 for Members residing outside the U.S. or Canada. Inclusive Club Dues include annual Club Dues, plus unlimited Home Resort Priority, Hilton Club Priority, and Club reservation fees, as applicable, priced at $99 or less.


----------



## Mongoose

Nowaker said:


> $5.5k out the door for 11,200 pts and only $904.59 MF ($0.081 MFpp) - I purchased in February. Someone on FB group told me they paid $500 more than what I paid. So $6k today I guess.



Is that resale?


----------



## dayooper

Mongoose said:


> Is that resale?



It’s a resale through the HGVC office at the different Scotland lodges. It’s listed in the system as developer, but sold like a resale through a broker. You have to buy through their office to make work that way.


----------



## Nowaker

Mongoose said:


> Is that resale?



Yes: because that "vacation certificate" (they don't sell real estate deeds) was owned by a different member at some point. But many retail deeds sold by HGVCorp are pre-owned by someone too.  If they ROFR something, then sell it, it's resale (technically) AND retail (because sold by HGVCorp). If I trade-in in my resale deed while making a retail purchase, and then they sell my deed, it's resale (technically) AND retail (because sold by HGVCorp). HGVCorp has very few purely fresh deeds - Maui Bay Villas would be one where we could say a deed is guaranteed to not be technically a resale.

No: because in practical terms, "resale" is the opposite of "retail". HGVC US and HGVC UK sell retail deeds that count towards Elite. Some changes will apply after HGV Max launches, but it hasn't launched yet so at this very moment, and until the launch of HGV Max, they're equal. Once it launches, HGVC UK will most likely still count as retail (nothing in the club guide says otherwise), but they don't know if they will be considered a "HGV Max authorized sales center" or not.



dayooper said:


> It’s listed in the system as developer, but sold like a resale through a broker



A broker? Their salespeople have @hgv.com email, the same as the US team. The seller is "Hilton Grand Vacations UK Limited  (HGVUK)". Moreover "HGVUK is the owner of Hilton Grand Vacations Club at Coylumbridge Lodges (Resort)". Information directly from the purchase agreement.

As per UK corp registration information - https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/08336462/officers - Mark Douglas Wang is the Director. Hint: same guy as the CEO of HGVC US.

Conclusion: this is handled by HGVC UK, a fully owned subsidiary of HGVC UK Holding, which in turn is a fully owned subsidiary of HGVC US, not a third party broker.


----------



## Mongoose

dayooper said:


> It’s a resale through the HGVC office at the different Scotland lodges. It’s listed in the system as developer, but sold like a resale through a broker. You have to buy through their office to make work that way.


That explains the price.  Thanks.


----------



## Nowaker

Mongoose said:


> That explains the price.  Thanks.


Please look above - I just edited my post and explained why it's not a case.


----------



## dayooper

Nowaker said:


> Yes: because that "vacation certificate" (they don't sell real estate deeds) was owned by a different member at some point. But many retail deeds sold by HGVCorp are pre-owned by someone too.  If they ROFR something, then sell it, it's resale (technically) AND retail (because sold by HGVCorp). If I trade-in in my resale deed while making a retail purchase, and then they sell my deed, it's resale (technically) AND retail (because sold by HGVCorp). HGVCorp has very few purely fresh deeds - Maui Bay Villas would be one where we could say a deed is guaranteed to not be technically a resale.
> 
> No: because in practical terms, "resale" is the opposite of "retail". HGVC US and HGVC UK sell retail deeds that count towards Elite. Some changes will apply after HGV Max launches, but it hasn't launched yet so at this very moment, and until the launch of HGV Max, they're equal. Once it launches, HGVC UK will most likely still count as retail (nothing in the club guide says otherwise), but they don't know if they will be considered a "HGV Max authorized sales center" or not.
> 
> 
> 
> A broker? Their salespeople have @hgv.com email, the same as the US team. The seller is "Hilton Grand Vacations UK Limited  (HGVUK)". Moreover "HGVUK is the owner of Hilton Grand Vacations Club at Coylumbridge Lodges (Resort)". Information directly from the purchase agreement.
> 
> As per UK corp registration information - https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/08336462/officers - Mark Douglas Wang is the Director. Hint: same guy as the CEO of HGVC US.
> 
> Conclusion: this is handled by HGVC UK, a fully owned subsidiary of HGVC UK Holding, which in turn is a fully owned subsidiary of HGVC US, not a third party broker.



I never said they were sold by brokers. I said they were sold like they were by a broker because the majority of them are still owned by an owner. They are sold through their office like resale brokers do. That’s why I said like brokers.

When they want to sell, owners contact their office and the staff assists on the selling of their weeks and the office takes their cut (like a broker does). Whether the office keeps the cut or some/all goes to HGVC corporate, I don’t know. Are there some that were reclaimed from those not paying their MF’s? Sure, but it’s a small amount. Those lodges have been sold out for years and the sales are resales as most of them are bought from an owner, not corporate. The sales office never takes over the MF’s in cases like these. The owner must keep paying them until the certificate transfers.


----------



## dioxide45

GT75 said:


> I am fairly certain that it isn't a trust, only cross booking. If it was a trust then there would be annual MFs.    In addition,  new HGVC *deeds* purchased after Jan 4th (I think that was the date) would be included in HGV Max again without anything additionally (such as trust MFs).


I tried another search of Orange county records and can't turn up any trust related to HGV. Possible I am not using the correct search terms, but I don't think there will be a trust.


----------



## iiderman

GT75 said:


> A TUGGER email the Scotland office and was informed that inventory sold will still qualify for HGV Elite status but they are not HGV Max authorized seller.


According to Brian McStea moderator of the Hgv resales FB group, as of 4/4 Scotland no longer qualifies.  He posted today stating that his source is “sound”


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@iiderman Not a Facebook user. Since your moderator has a sound source, can your moderator also get information from his source as to what the benefits are in the new elite tiers esp. at 10 months and when those tiers will be announced?  Is there any benefit to having low end elite and MAX vs. no status and Max?


----------



## GT75

iiderman said:


> According to Brian McStea moderator of the Hgv resales FB group, as of 4/4 Scotland no longer qualifies.  He posted today stating that his source is “sound”


I saw that.    Our source was via the on-site HGV sales rep which I would have also thought sound.    But this thing is so fluid that it would be best to wait and see when rules are published.


----------



## dougp26364

….


----------



## dougp26364

dioxide45 said:


> I tried another search of Orange county records and can't turn up any trust related to HGV. Possible I am not using the correct search terms, but I don't think there will be a trust.




Perhaps the trusts remain under either the Diamond Resorts or Sunterra names. The trust were originally formed under Sunterra. Diamond Resorts was headquartered in Nevada. I don’t recall we’re Sunterra had its headquarters


----------



## CalGalTraveler

GT75 said:


> I saw that.    Our source was via the on-site HGV sales rep which I would have also thought sound.    But this thing is so fluid that it would be best to wait and see when rules are published.



Plus, we know what happens when sales reps lips move...


----------



## pedro47

dougp26364 said:


> Perhaps the trusts remain under either the Diamond Resorts or Sunterra names. The trust were originally formed under Sunterra. Diamond Resorts was headquartered in Nevada. I don’t recall we’re Sunterra had its headquarters


I believe Sunterra was located in Orlando, FL.
That is where all the heavy hitters were headquartered, plus, all the MF's and money were collected. in Florida.


----------



## youppi

pedro47 said:


> I believe Sunterra was located in Orlando, FL.
> That is where all the heavy hitters were headquartered, plus, all the MF's and money were collected. in Florida.


Orlando in the beginning but in 2002 they relocated it to Las Vegas 

From http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/11/114123/reports/2002 10K.pdf
"We also own an approximately 25,000 square foot building in Orlando, Florida, which, prior to our relocation to North Las Vegas in 2002, was our headquarters."


----------



## youppi

dougp26364 said:


> Perhaps the trusts remain under either the Diamond Resorts or Sunterra names. The trust were originally formed under Sunterra. Diamond Resorts was headquartered in Nevada. I don’t recall we’re Sunterra had its headquarters


DRI renamed everything from Sunterra to Diamond Resort I think.
The Hawaii Collection members association certificate showing its rename is


			https://owners.diamondresorts.com/webui/doc_load_from_store?pvFileName=F-1709952949/Certificate%20of%20Amendment%20of%20Association%2010-31-07.pdf


----------



## HuskerATL

Just out about Max, https://club.hiltongrandvacations.c...n=hgvmax-slaunch&utm_term=EN&utm_content=link


----------



## HuskerATL

Here are the Max benefits in writing but I am not seeing much that we don't already have:

*What Are The Benefits?*
*On April 4, 2022, HGV Max Members will have immediate access to the following features:*


*Existing Club Portfolio* of 60+ resorts within the Hilton Grand Vacations Club network.
*One Annual Club Dues Payment*, regardless of how many eligible timeshare interests are owned (exclusions apply).
*Complimentary Reservation Transactions* when booking within your Club resort portfolio.
*Borrow Points* from your next allotment for use within the HGV Club exchange program, without incurring transaction fees.
*Save Current-Year ClubPoints* for use the following year (fee and use restrictions apply).
*RCI Exchange Access* by depositing Points for immediate or future stays at properties within the RCI network.
*Partner Experiences* such as cruises, guided journeys and more.
*Benefits coming to HGV Max later in 2022 and beyond include:*


*Expanded Portfolio* with self-service booking at over 140 properties, featuring a new reservation window starting six months before check-out (exceptions apply).
*Complimentary Reservation Transactions* when booking at over 140 resorts.
*Borrow Points* for use within the expanded portfolio of over 140 properties.
*Complimentary Guest Certificates* allotted annually (based on Member tiers).
*HGV Max Rate with Hilton* providing 10% savings off the regularly published rates when making reservations at over 6,800 Hilton hotels and resorts.


----------



## HuskerATL

*I’m an HGV Club Member. Am I automatically an HGV Max Member?*
If you purchased a vacation ownership interest from HGV after January 14, 2022, you will have the option to opt in to HGV Max. If you made a purchase at an HGV-branded Sales Center after April 4, 2022, you will automatically have access to HGV Max.


----------



## Eric B

*If I join HGV Max, will I have access to the Embarc collection?*
We are reviewing how to expand HGV Max to include Embarc collection properties. At this time, Embarc collection properties are not part of the HGV Max program.


----------



## Mongoose

HuskerATL said:


> Just out about Max, https://club.hiltongrandvacations.c...n=hgvmax-slaunch&utm_term=EN&utm_content=link


Sounds great, but it doesn’t address availability….


----------



## Mongoose

HuskerATL said:


> *I’m an HGV Club Member. Am I automatically an HGV Max Member?*
> If you purchased a vacation ownership interest from HGV after January 14, 2022, you will have the option to opt in to HGV Max. If you made a purchase at an HGV-branded Sales Center after April 4, 2022, you will automatically have access to HGV Max.


Well that sucks for anyone that bought in Q1.  Wonder how different the prices were?


----------



## dayooper

Mongoose said:


> Well that sucks for anyone that bought in Q1.  Wonder how different the prices were?



The opt in is supposedly at no cost.


----------



## HuskerATL

The Max info page from the link in the email sent out this morning is already taken down....


----------



## dioxide45

HuskerATL said:


> The Max info page from the link in the email sent out this morning is already taken down....
> 
> View attachment 51595


Just means more people will get the email and try Googling it. I notice at least one of these TUG threads come up on the first page of search results when searching for "HGV Max".

It also looks like the sub pages are down. I still have that page open from earlier and when you click on any of the "Learn more" buttons, they get the same 404 error.


----------



## Nomad420

With only one HGVC property owned at HCNY that is pretty much the only place I use so I don't see a lot of benefit to owners like me.  My other properties are not HGVC related.  But I will withhold judgement until I learn a bit more about the program.


----------



## Mongoose

dayooper said:


> The new points chart on the member website is up. It’s in the club membership portion. Here’s the chart:
> 
> 
> 
> https://d1m2ucn09z2f8d.cloudfront.net/static/documents/0b7ababb-91cc-411f-a8d7-664144eab6ea/CLB-BRCH-796204%20_%20HGV%20Max%20Points%20and%20Open%20Season%20Booklet_WEB.pdf


Besides the 60%, did the revalue some locations?  I thought most 2br were supposed to be 11200.


----------



## Tamaradarann

natarajanv said:


> Reservation Window:
> 
> View attachment 50919


I seems at the Grand Islander and the Hokolani in Honolulu the HGV Max Club members will have the same booking window as HGVC club members.  That will eliminate the advantage the HGVC club members have over HGV Club members with respect to booking at those resorts.


----------



## natarajanv

Links to the Rules/Club Reference Guide has been replaced temporarily by "NEW NAVIGATION ITEM"


----------



## Nowaker

natarajanv said:


> Links to the Rules/Club Reference Guide has been replaced temporarily by "NEW NAVIGATION ITEM"


Sound engineering!


----------



## escanoe

hurnik said:


> So the basic crux of the situation is that us HGV members (pre grandfather phase) continue (so far) to book HGV like usual.
> If we want DRI resorts, we'll either have to buy DRI, Purchase Max, or possibly if the resort is in RCI, book it that way.
> 
> It seems it doesn't (IMO) make sense to spend $7k for DRI access and I'd be better off using RCI (if possible) or buying resale DRI?
> 
> Although I know I tried to put an OGS in for Cabo Azul in RCI (last year, maybe?) and the system wouldn't let me.  Called and the rep tried doing it as well and it wouldn't let her.  She dug into it and said the resort wasn't "in" the RCI system or something similar (I know it's in Interval) so I wonder if that was something to do with DRI/HGV merger?  Dunno.  But she thought it was weird that the resort was in the list, but unable to be booked/OGS'd.
> 
> BUT that was a while ago (that's one of the few DRI resorts I'd be interested in)
> 
> I've never been able to book via Interval for that resort, either.  (shows up in the list, but never get a match with my trades)



The Cabo Azul OGSs I set up in RCI just matched for 2BRs in early and mid July 2023. RCI is going to be a much cheaper way for me to do my DRI visits than making a new HGV developer purchase.


----------



## GT75

escanoe said:


> The Cabo Azul OGSs I set up in RCI just matched for a 2BRs in early and mid July.


How many HGVC pts is that going to require and additional fees?


----------



## escanoe

I set up the OGS for it in RCI Points vs HGVC.

The match is for 62,000 RCI Points. Here is what it would have cost me on RCI Points. (My points cost about $0.007 each.)

RCI Resort Fee Disclosure: Resort amenities fee is 770 to 920 local currency. Cash or Credit is accepted.
Escanoe Math: I will assume that is daily and in pesos and 920 is for a 2BR. Using google it converts it to $38.51 per day


MFs                   $434
Xchange fee      $259
Resort Fee         $269.57

Total:                  $962.57

****************************************************
UPDATE!

There are some in RCI open inventory now. Here are point values in HGVC. And it looks like these values are steady over time. A studio's HGVC point valuation is the same in January as July.





I am not going to do an HGVC price calculation. Many of you have better ratios than me. The current HGVC RCI exchange fee is $249 ($10 less than using an RCI Points account). The resort fee is the same.


----------



## tk25

I suspect that the HGV Max Initiation Fee of $7000 (listed on page 26 of Club Reference 2022 rules and fees) is just a sales tool or prop/ploy that is being routinely waived when someone buys direct from authorized HGVC/Max sales center.  

The HGVC/Max sales person says that if you *buy this week/deed/points "Right Now today"* we will waive the usual $7000 initiation fee which will apply if you don't buy right now but later. HGVC/Max is trying to make the retail purchaser think he is getting even a better deal by buying right now.

HGV at this time has no intention of selling Max membership for $7000 to anyone with resale only deeds regardless of when they were purchased.  No grandfathering of resale purchases before April 2022.


----------



## Talent312

tk25 said:


> HGV at this time has no intention of selling Max membership for $7000 to anyone with resale only deeds regardless of when they were purchased.  No grandfathering of resale purchases before April 2022.



Everyone who buys a TS directly will eventually sell (except for those "returned" or kept in-family), so at least the existing stock, available for direct sales will likely diminish over time. Max may be their new cash-cow for the moment, but by excluding resales they are, as the saying goes,  "Cutting off their nose to spite their face."


----------



## tombanjo

They ROFR all day long as long as they can keep selling the MAX magic to punters.


----------



## HuskerATL

tk25 said:


> I suspect that the HGV Max Initiation Fee of $7000 (listed on page 26 of Club Reference 2022 rules and fees) is just a sales tool or prop/ploy that is being routinely waived when someone buys direct from authorized HGVC/Max sales center.
> 
> The HGVC/Max sales person says that if you *buy this week/deed/points "Right Now today"* we will waive the usual $7000 initiation fee which will apply if you don't buy right now but later. HGVC/Max is trying to make the retail purchaser think he is getting even a better deal by buying right now.
> 
> HGV at this time has no intention of selling Max membership for $7000 to anyone with resale only deeds regardless of when they were purchased.  No grandfathering of resale purchases before April 2022.


Probably but they have announced that anyone who purchases or upgraded after April 4th is automatically in. So upgrading a resale could be a good route to get in, if you have good trade in value and find the right deal.


----------



## dayooper

HuskerATL said:


> Probably but they have announced that anyone who purchases or upgraded after April 4th is automatically in. So upgrading a resale could be a good route to get in, if you have good trade in value and find the right deal.



My thought is why would I put the kind of cash HGV wants when they have now shown they are willing to change the system at a whim and charge existing clients more money to play in the new sandbox. It’s a slap in the face to all those that put, in some cases 6 figures into their ownership. Who’s to say they don’t have a series of changes lined up to soak owners for even more?

I’m not even talking about me. I haven’t put that kind of money that others have (about $2200 directly to HGVC) for my ownership. I understand why a resale owner like me might be left out (don’t agree but understand), but to force those that spent a considerable amount of income to pay even more is a slap to the face. They have already gone back on their word that they put their owners first by not accommodating those that they built their company on. Then they have the audacity to allow the sales weasels full control over the narrative by not specifying what the program actually is. Sales is allowed to throw whatever crap they want against the wall and see what sticks. As long as the buyer goes past the recession period, they are stuck. Then, sales is ignoring the $7000 opt in fee, pretending it doesn’t exist so they can coerce prospective buyers to purchasing even more. The DRI sales tactics are permeating into HGV.


----------



## escanoe

HuskerATL said:


> So upgrading a resale could be a good route to get in, if you have good trade in value and find the right deal.



Yes. And it appears the purpose of the HGV Max a la carte price at $7k is to make getting it “free” with a developer purchase is to make a developer purchase or trading in for a developer purchase appear to be more of a bargain.


----------



## HuskerATL

dayooper said:


> My thought is why would I put the kind of cash HGV wants when they have now shown they are willing to change the system at a whim and charge existing clients more money to play in the new sandbox. It’s a slap in the face to all those that put, in some cases 6 figures into their ownership. Who’s to say they don’t have a series of changes lined up to soak owners for even more?
> 
> I’m not even talking about me. I haven’t put that kind of money that others have (about $2200 directly to HGVC) for my ownership. I understand why a resale owner like me might be left out (don’t agree but understand), but to force those that spent a considerable amount of income to pay even more is a slap to the face. They have already gone back on their word that they put their owners first by not accommodating those that they built their company on. Then they have the audacity to allow the sales weasels full control over the narrative by not specifying what the program actually is. Sales is allowed to throw whatever crap they want against the wall and see what sticks. As long as the buyer goes past the recession period, they are stuck. Then, sales is ignoring the $7000 opt in fee, pretending it doesn’t exist so they can coerce prospective buyers to purchasing even more. The DRI sales tactics are permeating into HGV.


I agree. There are some owners who have paid a lot for retail and they are being left out of Max. If I were them, I would be very unhappy.


----------



## HuskerATL

escanoe said:


> Yes. And it appears the purpose of the HGV Max a la carte price at $7k is to make getting it “free” with a developer purchase is to make a developer purchase or trading in for a developer purchase appear to be more of a bargain.


I did see on FB that a person completed an upgrade for $7k and they are in for Max. So, in this example, they got a better ownership at the same cost as the initiation fee.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

dayooper said:


> I’m not even talking about me. I haven’t put that kind of money that others have (about $2200 directly to HGVC) for my ownership. I understand why a resale owner like me might be left out (don’t agree but understand), but to force those that spent a considerable amount of income to pay even more is a slap to the face. They have already gone back on their word that they put their owners first by not accommodating those that they built their company on. Then they have the audacity to allow the sales weasels full control over the narrative by not specifying what the program actually is. Sales is allowed to throw whatever crap they want against the wall and see what sticks. As long as the buyer goes past the recession period, they are stuck. Then, sales is ignoring the $7000 opt in fee, pretending it doesn’t exist so they can coerce prospective buyers to purchasing even more. The DRI sales tactics are permeating into HGV.



Well said. I am puzzled and disappointed HGV is not grandfathering owners who paid retail in the past. This is out of step with the HGV brand which is to take the high road and be classy. Is Diamond or their PE firm influencing this change?

To contrast, MVC is grandfathering retail with their new Vistana integration program. Although it sucks for unqualified resales, MVC is saying you need to pay in like everyone else if you want extra features. I believe it is fair for retail owners to get free enrollment because it recognizes their investment.

What HGV just did with this policy is to say that anyone who bought or buys retail is a sucker because you get no preference for all that money you paid i.e. we don't care if you paid more than $50k or $100k, because we just firewalled you and put you as second-class legacy - even the elites. Now pay up again to gain access to new properties (when HGV # of resorts was well below the industry average and promised more resorts in sales presentations). Really??

This is not right. I have invested retail in the HGV system and I am not happy about this policy. This is a bad precedent and does not build loyalty from their best buyers because they just screwed the HGV Elites and retail buyers. Besides, it doesn't cost HGV anything to allow retail to participate and would build program momentum.  Pennywise. Pound foolish.

Everyone should bring up these points at sales presentations when they ask why we won't buy retail.


----------



## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch

How many people were tempted to buy Diamond at retail, prior to the MAX rollout?  Let's say Diamond offered a special limited 6 month booking window, at only 6 of their properties?  Most HGVC owners didn't know they wanted it, until the FOMO and brand loyalty kicked in.


----------



## escanoe

The thing that bothers me most about being left in the HGVC legacy product (if that is how it turns out) is being locked out of any new properties and a fear that booking exchanges in the legacy club could become harder.

I don’t see myself ever going for MAX at the current price of entry. I am more likely to go buy some legacy Marriott and then make a developer purchase so I can trade with points there than I am to buy MAX … but I am not in a big hurry to do anything other than find out “the rest of the story” on HGV MAX. We could use some Paul Harvey on this.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Trust takes years to build and minutes to lose. I hope HGV clarifies this Max situation soon.


----------



## dougp26364

escanoe said:


> Yes. And it appears the purpose of the HGV Max a la carte price at $7k is to make getting it “free” with a developer purchase is to make a developer purchase or trading in for a developer purchase appear to be more of a bargain.



If I was even mildly interested in an upgrade and that upgrade was less than $10,000, then getting MAX as a benefit would be fine, but it’s not enough of an incentive for us to upgrade on its own merits. You have to keep in mind that we’re older, we own a resort we like and we know how to use the system well enough that there’s no urgency to upgrade.  It’s a sense of urgency that gets most prospects to sign a new deal. 

Maybe an owner wants to upgrade from an older property to the newest property for the home resort booking window.  Maybe they want to upgrade from an EOY deed. Maybe a family is growing and they find they need a larger unit. In these situations getting MAX tossed in without additional charge might be incentive enough to upgrade. My bet is, for many owners not familiar with TUG or the resale market, they will find it enough of an incentive to buy just a little more.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

MVC acknowledged in an investor call that they derive the majority of sales from existing owners. This fact is what is likely driving them to grandfather their owners because they know they will get it back later in new sales or in owner loyalty telling others. Once in the family always in the family.

What is HGV thinking by alienating their retail and Elite buyers? Is this a Diamond tactic? This is damaging the HGV brand.


----------



## WORLD TRAVELER

HuskerATL said:


> I did see on FB that a person completed an upgrade for $7k and they are in for Max. So, in this example, they got a better ownership at the same cost as the initiation fee.


Which Facebook board was this on?  I would like to follow that conversation.


----------



## WORLD TRAVELER

CalGalTraveler said:


> MVC acknowledged in an investor call that they derive the majority of sales from existing owners. This fact is what is likely driving them to grandfather their owners because they know they will get it back later in new sales or in owner loyalty telling others. Once in the family always in the family.
> 
> What is HGV thinking by alienating their retail and Elite buyers? Is this a Diamond tactic? This is damaging the HGV brand.


I'm hoping this doesn't turn into a reverse takeover since Diamond originally approached HGVC about purchasing HGVC but was rebuffed by Hilton Corp.  I find it interesting that HGVC then purchased Diamond a couple years later with Hilton Corp's blessing.  I was looking at the Diamond board and someone posted a multi year excel spreadsheet showing the cost per point of being in their program and it's very expensive compared to HGVC with rates starting at 67 cents per point for lower point memberships down to 19 cents per point for people that have 100K points for 2022.


----------



## HuskerATL

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> Which Facebook board was this on?  I would like to follow that conversation.


it was either the HGVC general one, https://www.facebook.com/groups/HGVCowners , or the Elite one, https://www.facebook.com/groups/2189003537797236 , but let me see if I can find it.


----------



## trippka

CalGalTraveler said:


> So if I read the points reports correctly 1 week in a Hawaii Oceanfront 2 bdrm will run between 18,000 and 21,000 points. A one bedroom OF or less than peak season about 15500 points.
> 
> Backing out the club fee that's approx  $3248 to $3845/week for a 2 bdrm for 1 week peak.  And  sbout $2906 for a 1 bdrm 15,500 points or 2 bdrm high season (not peak).
> 
> If I calculated this correctly, that's more expensive than our Westin Kaanapali OF on Maui which is $2800/week MF (and I thought that was expensive!).  However, the Westin can be locked off for $1400/week (1Bdrm/Studio) for a 2 week stay.
> 
> Lots to think about!
> 
> Do the new HGV 1.6x points now translate to Diamond points 1:1? If so, our HGV points from two different deeds, will barely get a 2 bdrm OF at P@P  for a week at 21,000  points. Yet within HGVC we can get a 2 bdrm on BI or Oahu with only one of those deeds points (old 9600 points).



I am a little confused by your point totals. Are these meant to be DRI? If so, there are no 2BR oceanfronts at Kaanapali Beach Club, and there are no 1BRs at all at P@P. The KBC oceanfronts are 1BR, and the 2BRs are very limited and at the back of the resort. I have points in both the Hawaii and Cabo Azul collections. I only use these resorts. They say 14mo availability for my status level, but realistically it is 13 mo as it requires developer owned weeks to be freed up at 14 mo, and they would rather rent them to new prospects. At 13 mo, I usually can't get exactly what I want in Feb or Mar at either resort. Lots of people have several months of points, and they can book a 1 month stay, so effectively they are getting to my desired units a month before me. I can always get something, though probably not the oceanfront I want. As for Cabo Azul, there is usually discounted availability in the summer months, but they are for hotel type suites with no kitchen. I like having a kitchen and a real bedroom so that I can be up working, watching TV, etc. while my husband sleeps in. It is really hard for me to get a 1BR oceanfront no matter what I do. I am happy to use the oceanview for fewer points though. The sad part about the spotty availability is that I am supposed to be able to upgrade to the next level up, but they have so MANY different levels that they can usually say that the upgrade isn't available because it would be a 2 level jump. For example, ranking might be partial pool view, pool view, deluxe pool view, but if "pool view" isn't available, I can't use my points for partial pool view and get upgraded to a better view. Sorry if this isn't helpful!


----------



## trippka

hurnik said:


> So the basic crux of the situation is that us HGV members (pre grandfather phase) continue (so far) to book HGV like usual.
> If we want DRI resorts, we'll either have to buy DRI, Purchase Max, or possibly if the resort is in RCI, book it that way.
> 
> It seems it doesn't (IMO) make sense to spend $7k for DRI access and I'd be better off using RCI (if possible) or buying resale DRI?
> 
> Although I know I tried to put an OGS in for Cabo Azul in RCI (last year, maybe?) and the system wouldn't let me.  Called and the rep tried doing it as well and it wouldn't let her.  She dug into it and said the resort wasn't "in" the RCI system or something similar (I know it's in Interval) so I wonder if that was something to do with DRI/HGV merger?  Dunno.  But she thought it was weird that the resort was in the list, but unable to be booked/OGS'd.
> 
> BUT that was a while ago (that's one of the few DRI resorts I'd be interested in)
> 
> I've never been able to book via Interval for that resort, either.  (shows up in the list, but never get a match with my trades)


You know that DRI pulled out of Interval (although we can have our own membership independent of DRI). DRI encourages us to use their internal trading system DEX instead. For you to get a Cabo Azul week, a DRI member would have to book a week there, then put it up for trade in II or RCI. Doesn't seem likely to me. I know I would never do that as it would be near impossible to find something I like as well in exchange for my week at CA. Marriott members get exchange priority at II, and although I am a Marriott owner (Hawaii and Aruba) they keep my Marriott II membership separate from my other accounts. I wouldn't be likely to be able to trade my CA week for a Marriott week.


----------



## trippka

escanoe said:


> The Cabo Azul OGSs I set up in RCI just matched for 2BRs in early and mid July 2023. RCI is going to be a much cheaper way for me to do my DRI visits than making a new HGV developer purchase.


Very interesting! Since that is over a year away, it has to be Developer Weeks. None of us have access to our weeks at CA for 7/23 yet. I will have to see if I can get some weeks!


----------



## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch

escanoe said:


> The thing that bothers me most about being left in the HGVC legacy product (if that is how it turns out) is being locked out of any new properties and a fear that booking exchanges in the legacy club could become harder.
> 
> I don’t see myself ever going for MAX at the current price of entry. I am more likely to go buy some legacy Marriott and then make a purchase so I can trade with points there than I am to buy MAX … but I am not in a big hurry to do anything other than find out “the rest of the story” on HGV MAX. We could use some Paul Harvey on this.



People certainly need to know what future builds mean.  Let's say it is 2032, and we've got these additional properties:

Hilton Grand Vacation Reno
Hilton Grand Vacation Lake Erie
Hilton Grand Vacation Dubai
Hilton Grand Vacation Singapore
Hilton Grand Vacation Antarctica

Do Max members, only have 6 months access to these new properties?  Do the new owners at these locations, have an advantage?  I see this only going one of two ways:

1.  We'll be continuously asked to buy more, so that we stay competitive.
2.  Max is just a transition phase, giving some of us early access, but HGVC and HGV Max will be fully merged in time.


----------



## trippka

trippka said:


> Very interesting! Since that is over a year away, it has to be Developer Weeks. None of us have access to our weeks at CA for 7/23 yet. I will have to see if I can get some weeks!


Just went to try and book a week, but all that are left for now are the studios (hotel rooms) with no kitchens. Just wondering if you saw the "resort fee" and still think it is cheaper on RCI. 

Resort amenities fee is 770 to 920 local currency. Cash or Credit is accepted.

The fee (plus tax) is per day/per unit depending on size of unit and covers the use of amenities.


----------



## escanoe

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> 2.  Max is just a transition phase, giving some of us early access, but HGVC and HGV Max will be fully merged in time.



I agree HGV Max is in a transition/creation phase right now.

HGVC and HGV Max being fully merged in time …. that may be a bit of wishful thinking, but I hope it happens.

There is some evidence talk they want to go to a trust … and they may in part. But I am not that sure a lot of the upper tier of HGVC owners will want to go to a trust. And HGV’s CEO has said they want to target Asian customers that do not tend to be very keen on trusts. I suspect deeded properties may be around (at least as part of the mix) for a while … but that is not what the sales weasels are saying.


----------



## Mowogo

escanoe said:


> The thing that bothers me most about being left in the HGVC legacy product (if that is how it turns out) is being locked out of any new properties and a fear that booking exchanges in the legacy club could become harder.
> 
> I don’t see myself ever going for MAX at the current price of entry. I am more likely to go buy some legacy Marriott and then make a purchase so I can trade with points there than I am to buy MAX … but I am not in a big hurry to do anything other than find out “the rest of the story” on HGV MAX. We could use some Paul Harvey on this.


If I am cut off from future HGVC properties without MAX then that is my clue that unless I am willing to put serious investment into HGVC to get retail, then I am definitely going to have to adjust how I view HGVC in long term planning, especially in contrast to how the family Vistana holdings are being treated.  I am glad I had very low acquisition costs and am ok if I decide to scale back within HGVC and give some of my contracts away


----------



## CalGalTraveler

trippka said:


> I am a little confused by your point totals. Are these meant to be DRI? If so, there are no 2BR oceanfronts at Kaanapali Beach Club, and there are no 1BRs at all at P@P. The KBC oceanfronts are 1BR, and the 2BRs are very limited and at the back of the resort. I have points in both the Hawaii and Cabo Azul collections. I only use these resorts. They say 14mo availability for my status level, but realistically it is 13 mo as it requires developer owned weeks to be freed up at 14 mo, and they would rather rent them to new prospects. At 13 mo, I usually can't get exactly what I want in Feb or Mar at either resort. Lots of people have several months of points, and they can book a 1 month stay, so effectively they are getting to my desired units a month before me. I can always get something, though probably not the oceanfront I want. As for Cabo Azul, there is usually discounted availability in the summer months, but they are for hotel type suites with no kitchen. I like having a kitchen and a real bedroom so that I can be up working, watching TV, etc. while my husband sleeps in. It is really hard for me to get a 1BR oceanfront no matter what I do. I am happy to use the oceanview for fewer points though. The sad part about the spotty availability is that I am supposed to be able to upgrade to the next level up, but they have so MANY different levels that they can usually say that the upgrade isn't available because it would be a 2 level jump. For example, ranking might be partial pool view, pool view, deluxe pool view, but if "pool view" isn't available, I can't use my points for partial pool view and get upgraded to a better view. Sorry if this isn't helpful!



Your information is very helpful. I was referring in general to the DRI points charts that were shared. I used point references to where I would like to stay:  P@P for the 2 bdrm Peak and Sedona. Overall the points required relative to HGVC appear to be higher. For example, it seems that a 1 bdrm in DRI can run 11k to 15k points. In HGVC they are lower.


----------



## tananth

More generally, the MF for similar size DRI properties are around 2x the MF in HGVC : you can check the tugbb timeshare comparison chart posted in one of the sticky threads.

HGVC is going to have a hard time merging the systems, particularly since many DRI properties are currently of lower quality than HGVC : any attempts to upgrade the DRI properties would have to be paid with higher MF on the DRI side (to pay off the upgrade cost over time) making the ratio even worse. Quite frankly, part of the current high MF for DRI can only be explained as payments over time to cover past development (or upgrade) costs that were never fully reflected in the original timeshare prices.


----------



## NiteMaire

tananth said:


> HGVC is going to have a hard time merging the systems, particularly since many DRI properties are currently of lower quality than HGVC : any attempts to upgrade the DRI properties would have to be paid with higher MF on the DRI side



Except according to HGV, DRI properties will be "entry level" HVC properties. DRI properties need to meet a Hilton standard, but it's not as high as HGVC.
Some DRI properties already meet the HVC standard and have been/will be rebranded without having to upgrade. Others will have to upgrade prior to rebranding.


----------



## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch

tananth said:


> More generally, the MF for similar size DRI properties are around 2x the MF in HGVC : you can check the tugbb timeshare comparison chart posted in one of the sticky threads.
> 
> HGVC is going to have a hard time merging the systems, particularly since many DRI properties are currently of lower quality than HGVC : any attempts to upgrade the DRI properties would have to be paid with higher MF on the DRI side (to pay off the upgrade cost over time) making the ratio even worse. Quite frankly, part of the current high MF for DRI can only be explained as payments over time to cover past development (or upgrade) costs that were never fully reflected in the original timeshare prices.



I can't imagine standard DRI properties merging, for the reasons you've stated.  Also from what I understand, Diamond was an acquisition company, so those MF may be reflected in the prior company's financial situation.  The quality, amenities, and footprint can vary greatly.  I've stayed at two Diamond properties locally, and other than the "Stay Happy, Stay Healthy, Stay Vacationed" promo on the TV, they felt like they were from two completely different companies.


----------



## tananth

NiteMaire said:


> Except according to HGV, DRI properties will be "entry level" HVC properties. DRI properties need to meet a Hilton standard, but it's not as high as HGVC.
> Some DRI properties already meet the HVC standard and have been/will be rebranded without having to upgrade. Others will have to upgrade prior to rebranding.



OK, let assume no further upgrades are done on the DRI side. But how is HGVC going to unload any remaining inventory on the DRI side when the equivalent HGVC Max offering will have around half the MF. The only way to do that is to either:

1. Raise the retail per point price on the HGVC side to above the DRI level, so the salesman can offer either a lower MF (HGVC) OR  a lower retail purchase price per point (DRI).
OR
2. Raise the MF on the HGVC side (for new sales) to match the DRI MF level (which would require switching to a points trust like Marriot).

Either way new retail sales for HGVC are going to be less attractive going forward.


----------



## pedro47

When is Hilton going to make an official announcement about their program and how it will work?


----------



## heitmullerj02

Guess I was short sighted, was offered this for $1700 at my last owner update and turned them down. I was told well then no accessing Diamond resorts, which really has no appeal to me, they are all pretty old and I have stayed at most of them in driving area. As long as I can get into my home resort, I’m ok.


----------



## HuskerATL

heitmullerj02 said:


> Guess I was short sighted, was offered this for $1700 at my last owner update and turned them down. I was told well then no accessing Diamond resorts, which really has no appeal to me, they are all pretty old and I have stayed at most of them in driving area. As long as I can get into my home resort, I’m ok.


How was the offer for $1,700? Was it as a fee or upgrade?


----------



## escanoe

trippka said:


> Very interesting! Since that is over a year away, it has to be Developer Weeks. None of us have access to our weeks at CA for 7/23 yet. I will have to see if I can get some weeks!



And here is a week for Sept 2023 at Ka’anapali in a 
2BR. It would cost me $1,110 in mf for my RCI traders +exchange fees. It looks harder to exchange into than Cabo.


----------



## heitmullerj02

Fee to join, with access to Diamond resorts, maybe I did not let them get to the 7k punch line. Told them not another cent more And they showed me to the door.


----------



## HuskerATL

heitmullerj02 said:


> Fee to join, with access to Diamond resorts, maybe I did not let them get to the 7k punch line. Told them not another cent more And they showed me to the door.


Interesting. That number has never come up and isn't in the guidebook but shows that the salespeople have flexibility with that initiation fee.


----------



## escanoe

trippka said:


> Just went to try and book a week, but all that are left for now are the studios (hotel rooms) with no kitchens. Just wondering if you saw the "resort fee" and still think it is cheaper on RCI.
> 
> Resort amenities fee is 770 to 920 local currency. Cash or Credit is accepted.
> 
> The fee (plus tax) is per day/per unit depending on size of unit and covers the use of amenities.



7/29/23 is available in a 2 BR now.

No more than I will exchange into DRI, paying the resort fee will be much more affordable than a developer purchase.

Note on availability: RCI lets anyone set up an OGS to land a match. No elite requirement there.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

That is a fantastic price for Maui. I believe the 2 bdrms are on the street side of the resort.  My challenges on RCI exchanges:

1) you get the dates and room size they give you. Often shoulder or off-peak. difficult to plan multi rooms for family
2) Resort fees can add up
3) RCIs trades end up with the worst rooms in the building (Lagoon Penthouse has a designated room next to the elevator motor on the roof - noisy)
4) You need to book months in advance. Life happens. If you need to cancel you are out your $249 trading fee.

RCI can be a good way to trade into insanely expensive resorts e.g. Crane but there are tradeoffs.


----------



## escanoe

Don’t disagree with any of this. But will there even be any inventory left through HGV Max at the 6 month mark? I will need some convincing that HGV Max is any more meaningful than RCI access before I would take the plunge.


CalGalTraveler said:


> That is a fantastic price for Maui. I believe the 2 bdrms are on the street side of the resort.  My challenges on RCI exchanges:
> 
> 1) you get the dates and room size they give you. Often shoulder or off-peak. difficult to plan multi rooms for family
> 2) Resort fees can add up
> 3) RCIs trades end up with the worst rooms in the building (Lagoon Penthouse has a designated room next to the elevator motor on the roof - noisy)
> 4) You need to book months in advance. Life happens. If you need to cancel you are out your $249 trading fee.
> 
> RCI can be a good way to trade into insanely expensive resorts e.g. Crane but there are tradeoffs, you get what you pay for.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@escanoe I agree. A lot of unknowns. Not sure how this will affect RCI inventory either.


----------



## NiteMaire

I don't want to go too far on a tangent, but will provide some info on the below:


escanoe said:


> And here is a week for Sept 2023 at Ka’anapali in a2BR. It would cost me $1,110 in mf for my RCI traders +exchange fees. It looks harder to exchange into than Cabo.


If you really want to go to KBC, here's the order in which I'd make a purchase based on ability to exchange/reserve: 1. Resale deeded KBC week, 2. HI Collection points, 3. Resale deeded DRI week elsewhere and use DeX, 4. HGV Max purchase. 5. Resale week outside of DRI and HGVC, and use RCI.  I did #3, and I'm very happy with ability to exchange into KBC during most of the year; I can select the view category when I exchange.  MFs for #1 and #2 far outweigh the benefits for me.  In time, we'll see if #4 moves up.


----------



## Mowogo

escanoe said:


> Don’t disagree with any of this. But will there even be any inventory left through HGV Max at the 6 month mark? I will need some convincing that HGV Max is any more meaningful than RCI access before I would take the plunge.


HGV Max also has to show that the combined company is worth continuing to do business, since the entire program marks a major shift in how HGV is treating owners.  To put penalties on resale was expected and appear to be appropriately harsh but still allows for exchange within your program (When the loss of Open Season really starts hitting I see some holdings losing even more resale value.)  The requiring of retail owners to make another purchase in order to access is an indication that many of the issues that inflated Diamond maintenance fees may be on their way to HGV in order to satisfy private equity.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Or you can Rent with no obligation: I see plenty of KBC availability for $240 - $350/night on average for a 1 bdrm for the exact dates. 






						Kaanapali Beach Club Timeshare Rentals | RedWeek
					

Rent directly from Kaanapali Beach Club owners, starting at just $120/night. By-owner rates often 25 - 50% lower than the resort's!




					www.redweek.com
				




We can also expect to see it offered for points on Hilton's website in the future. Remember with HGVC we can convert to Honors points.  Would have to evaluate the economics of this approach vs. others. IMHO...I would rather stay at the Grand Wailea...


----------



## HuskerATL

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> Which Facebook board was this on?  I would like to follow that conversation.


I can't find the $7k one but this posted today on the general HGVC FB group:
We went to a presentation today and were informed that the 50-1 conversion no longer exist and that it is now 32-1. As well the 25-1 has now become 16-1 with the new Diamond resorts acquisition. We previously owned in New York central with 6700 points studio and had the 50-1 conversion. We got a Miami property today 2bed 2bath with hgv max for 8k out the door and upgraded to 11k points. I’d love to hear thoughts? Did we loose a benefit as a previous Diamond owner prior to the conversion with our purchase today? I want to ensure we got the best offer. Thanks for any insight.


----------



## edboyd59

HuskerATL said:


> I can't find the $7k one but this posted today on the general HGVC FB group:
> We went to a presentation today and were informed that the 50-1 conversion no longer exist and that it is now 32-1. As well the 25-1 has now become 16-1 with the new Diamond resorts acquisition. We previously owned in New York central with 6700 points studio and had the 50-1 conversion. We got a Miami property today 2bed 2bath with HGV Max for 8k out the door and upgraded to 11k points. I’d love to hear thoughts? Did we loose a benefit as a previous Diamond owner prior to the conversion with our purchase today? I want to ensure we got the best offer. Thanks for any insight.


I believe what you are seeing is a result of the 1.6X points expansion for the HGV/DR merger. HGV Club owners are getting a 1.6X revision of their previous points level to bring the points in line with what the point levels are in DR. If you previously owned 10,000 HGV points or a deed with an equivalent value, that point level is now 16,000 points. I don't believe that you lost anything on point buying power as this was just a revaluation.


----------



## edboyd59

HuskerATL said:


> I can't find the $7k one but this posted today on the general HGVC FB group:


The $7,000 Initiation Fee is shown on page 26 of the HGVC Club Reference Guide updated on April 4, 2022. I am not an HGVC owner but someone posted the link to the document when it was released and I downloaded a copy.

Fee Schedule for HGV Max Members
ACTIVATION FEES
Activation Fee (per contract)                 $199
Ownership Change Fee                         $450
HGV Max Initiation Fee                       $7,000


----------



## HuskerATL

edboyd59 said:


> I believe what you are seeing is a result of the 1.6X points expansion for the HGV/DR merger. HGV Club owners are getting a 1.6X revision of their previous points level to bring the points in line with what the point levels are in DR. If you previously owned 10,000 HGV points or a deed with an equivalent value, that point level is now 16,000 points. I don't believe that you lost anything on point buying power as this was just a revaluation.


The HH conversion just needed to be explained to them since that hasn't changed, but interesting part was that a) he may have just "upgraded" from a 6700 old point to a 11k new point, barely gained and lost HH conversion amounts and b) he upgraded for only $8k and received Max so that tells us that the story of minimum $25k or $50k to upgrade into Max isn't true.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I hope s/he rescinded. That is a bad deal. In addition to losing 32:1/50:1 conversion, s/he also lost AI reservations, and priority reservation windows  by giving up NYC

The lies these reps spin amazes me.


----------



## HuskerATL

CalGalTraveler said:


> I hope s/he rescinded. That is a bad deal. In addition to losing 32:1/50:1 conversion, s/he also lost AI reservations, and priority reservation windows  by giving up NYC
> 
> The lies these reps spin amazes me.


This is still being discussed in FB but sounds like his prior points were new points so he did gain.  He is asking what else he loses by doing this.  Since you own in NYC, what all did he lose?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Also loss of lounge privileges in NYC. Does he still want to go to NYC? If so the priority window is a big deal. Every presentation we attend, they want to trade in our NYC. We say No. However if they don't use NYC, then switching to an efficient MF/pp Club makes sense.

Is Miami where they want to travel? How do the MF compare on a cost/pp basis? I believe Miami is an older building. Would take a look at the reserves and financials to avoid an assessment surprise.


----------



## HuskerATL

CalGalTraveler said:


> Also loss of lounge privileges in NYC. Does he still want to go to NYC? If so the priority window is a big deal. Every presentation we attend, they want to trade in our NYC. We say No. However if they don't use NYC, then switching to an efficient MF/pp Club makes sense.
> 
> Is Miami where they want to travel? How do the MF compare on a cost/pp basis? I believe Miami is an older building. Would take a look at the reserves and financials to avoid an assessment surprise.


Are you part of the HGVC FB group, https://www.facebook.com/groups/HGVCowners?  Maybe respond to his post and provide some thoughts?  I don't know enough about NYC properties.


----------



## dayooper

CalGalTraveler said:


> I hope s/he rescinded. That is a bad deal. In addition to losing 32:1/50:1 conversion, s/he also lost AI reservations, and priority reservation windows  by giving up NYC
> 
> The lies these reps spin amazes me.



I do believe that Max gives you unlimited bookings. They may have not lost that. Otherwise, I agree, bad deal.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@dayooper Good point, however we still don't know what MAX is yet.

The poster mentioned that he uses NYC. The loss of the priority NYC booking window will be a big loss when Diamond can book at < 60 days when the booking window opens. Also loss of Open Season which is only available to NYC owners.


----------



## magmue

> That is a bad deal.... s/he also lost AI reservations


I am not sure all that many bHC owners know about the AI option. We bought resale W 57th last year, and there was nothing about it in any of the paperwork - even our agent, one frequently recommended here at TUG as knowledgeable about HGVC, seemed unfamiliar when we mentioned it during the purchase process. 
I knew about it only because of TUG, and knew I had to ask to have it added after our deed was activated.


----------



## GMan82

I sent an email to them indicating that I’m upset that as a retail owner from 2018 I’m not automatically grandfathered into the new program. This was their response:


----------



## Tamaradarann

GT75 said:


> Good, so that means that DRI members who purchase into HGV Max will be able to book normal HGVC at 6-month mark and HGVC member will still be able to book at 9-month mark.   I don't have a problem with that.



That is true at this time.  However, there is a new and improved HGV Max Elite which will be launched with allowing a 10 month mark for reservations.  That will kill the most sought after weeks for legacy HGVC owners.


----------



## HuskerATL

GMan82 said:


> I sent an email to them indicating that I’m upset that as a retail owner from 2018 I’m not automatically grandfathered into the new program. This was their response:
> View attachment 53016


That will be the "we would like to invite you to join Max for $7k" email. Since Max isn't live yet and the portal won't even be up until August, we aren't missing much.


----------



## GT75

Tamaradarann said:


> However, there is a new and improved HGV Max Elite which will be launched with allowing a 10 month mark for reservations. That will kill the most sought after weeks for legacy HGVC owners.


The problem is that we are all getting this information from sales presentation.   There is even a footnote at the bottom of the slide.   I am very disappointed with HGV for allowing sales to state this information as facts.     I think there will be many upset HGV Max members sometime in the future when the rules are actually released.


----------



## escanoe

The restaurant con$umer$ heard the glorious sound of the sizzle, very little details about the meal were on the menu, ordering it was still too much of a temptation to pass up. In August (maybe) the wait staff will bring out the entre. 

We have no reason to think it will not meet expectations, right?  



GT75 said:


> The problem is that we are all getting this information from sales presentation.   There is even a footnote at the bottom of the slide.   I am very disappointed with HGV for allowing sales to state this information as facts.     I think there will be many upset HGV Max members sometime in the future when the rules are actually released.


----------



## dayooper

GT75 said:


> The problem is that we are all getting this information from sales presentation.   There is even a footnote at the bottom of the slide.   I am very disappointed with HGV for allowing sales to state this information as facts.     I think there will be many upset HGV Max members sometime in the future when the rules are actually released.



I agree. Either they are completely unorganized in this release or they are intentional on allowing sales to say whatever they want in trying to get people to purchase (or both). I hope this isn't a sign that the DRI side of the merger has more influence than the HGVC.


----------



## brp

Tamaradarann said:


> That is true at this time.  However, there is a new and improved HGV Max Elite which will be launched with allowing a 10 month mark for reservations.  That will kill the most sought after weeks for legacy HGVC owners.



Agree on the misinformation that others have mentioned. At this time, there is no documentation that indicates that *anyone* gets more than a 9-month reservation window, including Max Executive Infinity Plus members. They get searches starting at 10 months. That is all that is documented.

Salesweasels may call it a "reservation" to make it sound more attractive but, well, they're salesweasels.

Cheers.


----------



## pedro47

I agree there is too much misinformation floating around at this time.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

My take is that Max is repackaged and rebranded DRI Trust 2.0 for HGVC owners. This is why it doesn't feel like HGV.


----------



## HuskerATL

brp said:


> Agree on the misinformation that others have mentioned. At this time, there is no documentation that indicates that *anyone* gets more than a 9-month reservation window, including Max Executive Infinity Plus members. They get searches starting at 10 months. That is all that is documented.
> 
> Salesweasels may call it a "reservation" to make it sound more attractive but, well, they're salesweasels.
> 
> Cheers.


I am not sure of the purpose to search a month out if you can't book. The documentation also stated that they would be fulfilled by Eilte level. My salesweasel said book at 10 months.... For what it is worth.


----------



## brp

HuskerATL said:


> I am not sure of the purpose to search a month out if you can't book. The documentation also stated that they would be fulfilled by Eilte level. My salesweasel said book at 10 months.... For what it is worth.



Yeah, not surprised that the salesman said that.

As to reasons, one that seems likely to me, and that I included in one of these threads, is the idea of a "set it and forget it" search that folks who are not us, i.e. the vast majority of TS owners, would like. Sure, it could actually book more than 9 months out, but I have only seen *search *actually documented. 

Convenience without the nuance of second or minute precision is valuable to many.

Anyway, mine is speculation, too. But I see no real reason for them to need to jump the line when just providing the feature caries weight with most.

Cheers.


----------



## HuskerATL

brp said:


> Yeah, not surprised that the salesman said that.
> 
> As to reasons, one that seems likely to me, and that I included in one of these threads, is the idea of a "set it and forget it" search that folks who are not us, i.e. the vast majority of TS owners, would like. Sure, it could actually book more than 9 months out, but I have only seen *search *actually documented.
> 
> Convenience without the nuance of second or minute precision is valuable to many.
> 
> Anyway, mine is speculation, too. But I see no real reason for them to need to jump the line when just providing the feature caries weight with most.
> 
> Cheers.


But if you look at the info about it on the slides, it says that it will fill automatically but, you are right, maybe that is at midnight on day 276.


----------



## brp

HuskerATL said:


> But if you look at the info about it on the slides, it says that it will fill automatically but, you are right, maybe that is at midnight on day 276.



I wonder if this is automatically fill *if available* (since it is a search), or really fill in all cases. In the latter, then it's really not a search but an advance booking. Again, stil not clear and could go either way.

Cheers.


----------



## dayooper

brp said:


> I wonder if this is automatically fill *if available* (since it is a search), or really fill in all cases. In the latter, then it's really not a search but an advance booking. Again, stil not clear and could go either way.
> 
> Cheers.



I believe it has to be a search that fills at 276 days. Otherwise it would interfere with the 3 month home season reservation window. The precedent has been set when owners in a different system that sued the developer when they infringed on that deeded right. That particular developer shortened the booking window to allow "elite" members earlier access to those weeks. The owners won that lawsuit and the developer was forced to put things back to they way they were. HGVC knows they have to keep those deeded rights so they developed the loyalty searches to go around that.


----------



## HuskerATL

dayooper said:


> I believe it has to be a search that fills at 276 days. Otherwise it would interfere with the 3 month home season reservation window. The precedent has been set when owners in a different system that sued the developer when they infringed on that deeded right. That particular developer shortened the booking window to allow "elite" members earlier access to those weeks. The owners won that lawsuit and the developer was forced to put things back to they way they were. HGVC knows they have to keep those deeded rights so they developed the loyalty searches to go around that.


Unless, the 10 month window is for HGVC people booking in DRI and the DRI Elite might get a 9 month window booking into HGVC.


----------



## GT75

Many of these elite benefits which are showing up on these slides are just copied from the DRI rules (thanks to @HuskerATL and @cindyc).    This Loyalty search request is just one of them.  



I honestly don't think that HGV even proofread the slides before they gave them to sales.  Now, who knows how this will be implemented.    It could be different for each system.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I know we are upset about this HGVC 10 month elite search. But what about HGVC owners trading into DRI via MAX?  My understanding is that DRI owners have a 14 month window? If so, how does a 10 month priority into DRI help?  This seems to be directed at Max owners trading into HGVC without a reciprocal benefit for HGVC Elite priority into DRI properties.

This further reinforces that all of this is half-baked with benefits based on repositioning DRI Club points 2.0. We need to hold off until we see the final announcement later this year. I am going to avoid sales presentations until this is official and we know what Max really entails.

From what I can tell from DRI deed holders and MVC deed holders, no one lost anything by doing nothing and continuing to enjoy their deeds. Hang onto your wallets until you know for sure.


----------



## HuskerATL

CalGalTraveler said:


> I know we are upset about this HGVC 10 month elite search. But what about HGVC owners trading into DRI via MAX?  My understanding is that DRI owners have a 14 month window? If so, how does a 10 month priority into DRI help?  This seems to be directed at Max owners trading into HGVC without a reciprocal benefit for HGVC Elite priority into DRI properties.
> 
> This further reinforces that all of this is half-baked with benefits based on repositioning DRI Club points 2.0. We need to hold off until we see the final announcement later this year. I am going to avoid sales presentations until this is official and we know what Max really entails.
> 
> From what I can tell from DRI deed holders and MVC deed holders, no one lost anything by doing nothing and continuing to enjoy their deeds. Hang onto your wallets until you know for sure.


Would be interesting to see what DRI sales folks are showing their side for Max Elite.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@HuskerATL  I am fairly certain they get the 10 month HGVC language, but what do HGVC Max Owners get for priority into DRI for reservations? I doubt it would be limited to 6 months.

Or if is, Why?  If I signed up for Max Elite I would expect to have priority access into P@P or KBC or Tahoe or Sedona just as they *might* have priority access into HGVC top locations. I have yet to see any language which describes this.


----------



## HuskerATL

CalGalTraveler said:


> @HuskerATL  I am fairly certain they get the 10 month HGVC language, but what do HGVC Max Owners get for priority into DRI for reservations? I doubt it would be limited to 6 months.
> 
> Or if is, Why?  If I signed up for Max Elite I would expect to have priority access into P@P or KBC or Tahoe or Sedona just as they *might* have priority access into HGVC top locations. I have yet to see any language which describes this.


Of course this just speculation on my part but our Club Reservation Window is 9 months and theirs is 13 months for their Home Collection, 12 months for home resorts, and 10 months for any resort. Maybe the loyalty search request for each side aligns to the other sides general booking window.  So HGVC Elite Max with the loyalty search request is 10 months and DRI Elite Max with the loyalty search request is 9 months and the non-Elite is 6 months for both.  Just me spit balling...


----------



## GT75

HuskerATL said:


> So HGVC Elite Max with the loyalty search request is 10 months and DRI Elite Max with the loyalty search request is 9 months and the non-Elite is 6 months for both. Just me spit balling...


That would be my guess also.   Or at least I think that might be a real possibility.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@HuskerATL You may be onto something. Since these sales presentations appear to be lifted from the DRI Elite manual, maybe this 10 month loyalty search priority has nothing to do with HGVC and is a DRI only benefit? Do you recall anywhere in the documentation that said 10 month loyalty search was associated with making an HGVC reservations?

We can surmise that HGVC points holders own on average about half the number of points (8 - 10k new points) than the average DRI CLUB points holder at 20k (HT: @Youpi) yet the HGVC units are higher quality and bigger for the equivalent points in DRI (11,200 will reserve a 2 bdrm platinum season in HGVC whereas the equivalent DRI appears to be a 1 bdrm for 11k points based on a quick perusal of their points charts). This imbalance could easily overwhelm the HGVC system if a lot of DRI members signed up for MAX. To counter this, perhaps, they are tilting the loyalty benefit in favor of booking DRI to avoid a mass influx into the HGV system by offering this DRI Loyalty search and by keeping the DRI to HGV window it at 6 months? YMMV.


----------



## HuskerATL

CalGalTraveler said:


> @HuskerATL You may be onto something. Since these pages appear to be lifted from the DRI Elite manual, maybe this 10 month loyalty search priority is a DRI only beneift? Do you recall anywhere in the documentation that said 10 month loyalty search was associated with HGVC reservations?


It is just says HGV Max so that speaks to both now but my speculation was that the 10 month loyalty search was a HGVC Elite benefit to reserve DRI properties.  We could confirm my speculation if we could hear from a DRI person and if they get a 9 month window to reserve in HGVC for their elite.


----------



## Arusso

dayooper said:


> (This is my post from a different thread. I figure this should have a post in it’s own.)
> 
> Looks like it’s $7000 to join HGV Max without a developer purchase. Here is a screenshot of the reference page from my account.View attachment 50866
> 
> Here’s another statement from the reference page about resale.
> 
> View attachment 50867
> Does this mean if you own resale you can’t be part of HGVMax or does it mean the purchase doesn’t qualify?
> 
> To me, it doesn’t matter. We won’t buy from the developer nor will we pay $7000 to join. I’m really disappointed in HGV, but not surprised. The desire to soak owners for even more money is too great. There will be plenty of people who will join and they will make their money, but all of the speculation a year ago was correct, this merger is a negative for many owners.


So that I'm on the same page here.....

There are Hilton owners and DRI owners.  With the acquisition, there was a merger of  properties.  A few top tier DRI properties were assigned to the HGVC group and the rest (majority) to the HVC grouping of properties.  This, of course creates different classes of owners.  The DRI owners are being pitched into purchasing into HGV MAX.  Are Hilton owners also being pitched the same deal?  If a DRI owner has "a qualified purchase"  i.e. the purchase was made from the developer, is the fee to join HGV MAX $7,000 + $450 + $199 ??  Or, is another purchase of points with the commensurate MFs from Hilton required?  Am I correct in concluding that a DRI owner would need to spend an additional $20,000 (plus the aforementioned fees) to join HVC MAX??????  Do I have this correct?


----------



## escanoe

Arusso said:


> Do I have this correct?



You are in the right neighborhood, but may not be on exactly the right street.

There are some nuances you probably do not have right …. but truthfully  no one on the outside has all the details of how this will work.

For instance, some DRI resorts (Embarc) are up to HGVC standards and may be rebranded as HGVC …. but none of us has any idea what that will mean as far as an internal exchange or anything.

We are all going to have to wait and see exactly how this unfolds.


----------



## HuskerATL

Arusso said:


> So that I'm on the same page here.....
> 
> There are Hilton owners and DRI owners.  With the acquisition, there was a merger of  properties.  A few top tier DRI properties were assigned to the HGVC group and the rest (majority) to the HVC grouping of properties.  This, of course creates different classes of owners.  The DRI owners are being pitched into purchasing into HGV MAX.  Are Hilton owners also being pitched the same deal?  If a DRI owner has "a qualified purchase"  i.e. the purchase was made from the developer, is the fee to join HGV MAX $7,000 + $450 + $199 ??  Or, is another purchase of points with the commensurate MFs from Hilton required?  Am I correct in concluding that a DRI owner would need to spend an additional $20,000 (plus the aforementioned fees) to join HVC MAX??????  Do I have this correct?


If you buy from a developer or upgrade a resale to retail, there is no $7k fee.  There may still be a $199/contract fee but I am still not sure about that and there is a $281 club fee. This is for HGVC owners to join HGV Max.  I don't know how the DRI side is doing it.  Also, I am still not sure that the Max portal isn't just that.... a portal that accesses both HGVC and DRI to book for Max members.  That is how it was drawn up at my sales meeting. What I don't know is that if we do get to the arrangement that it is a points system and not deeds, how is Max populated with property.  But if all Max people still have deeds, then the system would work the same but with more members vying for the existing properties.


----------



## GT75

Arusso said:


> So that I'm on the same page here.....


Honestly, what we do know is HGV is selling HGV Max.     But we don't know what HGV Max really is (the details anyways).


----------



## iiderman

GT75 said:


> Honestly, what we do know is HGV is selling HGV Max.     But we don't know what HGV Max really is (the details anyways).


We don’t know what we don’t know we don’t know


----------



## brp

iiderman said:


> We don’t know what we don’t know we don’t know



Right. But at least we know that.

Cheers.


----------



## dioxide45

The problem with HGV Max and even with Marriott/Vistana is they are selling something that doesn't really exist yet. YOu can buy in but you can't really do anything or book anything within the new program. Timeshare developers used to do this in the past. They would sell a timeshare by showing you an empty piece of land where the timeshare was going to be built. In some cases the resort was never built.


----------



## brp

dioxide45 said:


> The problem with HGV Max and even with Marriott/Vistana is they are selling something that doesn't really exist yet. YOu can buy in but you can't really do anything or book anything within the new program. Timeshare developers used to do this in the past. They would sell a timeshare by showing you an empty piece of land where the timeshare was going to be built. In some cases the resort was never built.



Get in on the ground floor
Low pre-development price
Sure to appreciate
You don't want to miss this opportunity
...

Cheers.


----------



## Tamaradarann

brp said:


> Agree on the misinformation that others have mentioned. At this time, there is no documentation that indicates that *anyone* gets more than a 9-month reservation window, including Max Executive Infinity Plus members. They get searches starting at 10 months. That is all that is documented.
> 
> Salesweasels may call it a "reservation" to make it sound more attractive but, well, they're salesweasels.
> 
> Cheers.



Are you saying that the Max Executive Infinity Plus Members for the program that they will be coming out with later this year will only be getting search privileges not booking privileges?  What good is seaching for something and not being able to act on the time and effort you put into a search?


----------



## escanoe

Oh, but it is also documented that these are "active searches" and not merely passive searches.

I assume they are like OGSs that have the potential to match with some type of priority status right at the 9-month mark.

Again, no one yet fully understands how this will work. Patience, grasshopper. 



Tamaradarann said:


> Are you saying that the Max Executive Infinity Plus Members for the program that they will be coming out with later this year will only be getting search privileges not booking privileges?  What good is seaching for something and not being able to act on the time and effort you put into a search?


----------



## brp

Tamaradarann said:


> Are you saying that the Max Executive Infinity Plus Members for the program that they will be coming out with later this year will only be getting search privileges not booking privileges?  What good is seaching for something and not being able to act on the time and effort you put into a search?



Yes, it will act. But I expect not at 10 months. Rather, at 9 months. And I actually don't expect that it will be 9 months to the second as some of us do. Basically, I don't really expect that it will jump the queue, but book at the 9 month mark, within a couple of minutes. So, it saves the need to look at 9 months as the search can go in "whenever" during the 10th month.

Again, speculation.

Cheers.


----------



## fys

brp said:


> Yes, it will act. But I expect not at 10 months. Rather, at 9 months. And I actually don't expect that it will be 9 months to the second as some of us do. Basically, I don't really expect that it will jump the queue, but book at the 9 month mark, within a couple of minutes. So, it saves the need to look at 9 months as the search can go in "whenever" during the 10th month.
> 
> Again, speculation.
> 
> Cheers.


I agree with brp but for a different reason. The HOME WEEK PRIORITY RESERVATION WINDOW ends 276 days in advance of the CHECK IN date. The CLUB RESERVATION WINDOW requires a 3 night minimum stay and starts 276 days prior to the CHECK OUT date. This would allow HGVC, under the current rules, a 72 hour period after the end of the home week priority window and before the club reservation window opens to fill the ongoing search requests for the MAX Elite (or whatever it will be known as) member. With this 72 hour period, effectively, home week bookings are honoured in full, MAX Elite members get to book ahead of most member (as advertised), and the club reservation window remains the same (as promised) - albeit with less available inventory (not promised). And yes, as such, those "walking a reservation" may find the room they were counting on taken by MAX Elite before they can get to book it.

I've attached the revised HGVC Disclosure Statement (April 2022) [check your HOA documents in your portal]. The definition of home week and club reservation window is defined in this document. Although HGVC can/have amended/changed the definition at any time, they just amended them this month. I would think a further major change is unlikely at this time ... but ...

Note that the definition of home week priority reservation window confirms that a "Club Member has the exclusive right to reserve the use of their Home Week   through the Club without competing for such reservation with other Club Members other than those owning the same suite configuration type and Season at the same Home Resort."  You need to match: 1. same resort, 2. same season, 3. same suite configuration (a. room size [studio, 1, 2, 3 bdrm, etc], b. room view [reg, plus, premium, etc., and c. setup [king bed vs 2 double beds]). It is 3b and 3c that has been added over the past 25 years.

In conclusion, MAX Elite can search but not book until day 275 before check in.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

We are really getting over our skis on this 10 month search item.

AFAIK there is nothing that says this 10 month search for Max elite is for HGV reservations.

Have you considered that this may be for 10 months DRI reservations and not HGV? @HuskerATL found that these Elite terms were lifted from the current DRI Club Elite benefits. It appears there is a 10 month "club" like window in the DRI system. Perhaps this allows MAX buyers access to DRI resorts at 10 months and has nothing to do with early search on HGV.  In addition these benefits were marked "not final."

Hopefully HGV will sort out this confusion soon.


----------



## ljmiii

iiderman said:


> We don’t know what we don’t know we don’t know


Reports that say that something hasn't happened to HGVC are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of timeshares in our country and in other countries, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones....[presented with tongue firmly in cheek]


----------



## pedro47

I feel Marriott/Vistana are now going to delay their action plans until the HGVC MAX plan is laid out completely for Hilton/DRI members.
This is only my opinion.


----------



## Mowogo

pedro47 said:


> I feel Marriott/Vistana are now going to delay their action plans until the HGVC MAX plan is laid out completely for Hilton/DRI members.
> This is only my opinion.


No, Marriott/Vistana locked themselves into June for major information to investors.  Hilton is going for a segmented product (HVC vs HGVC vs bHC), while Marriott Vacations offers segmentation on properties, but sells a singular offering (With luxury being available with the same currency as regular) which makes the integration very different.  For HVC there was just work needed to make exchanging with the existing HGVC and bHC currencies work relatively easy.  Marriott is eliminating the sales of the Vistana Flex products when they move sales to the combined product.  HGV is being pushed by the former owners of Diamond to return cash to investors immediately, where MVW has more latitude to try and create a compelling product.


----------



## hurnik

escanoe said:


> I set up the OGS for it in RCI Points vs HGVC.
> 
> The match is for 62,000 RCI Points. Here is what it would have cost me on RCI Points. (My points cost about $0.007 each.)
> 
> RCI Resort Fee Disclosure: Resort amenities fee is 770 to 920 local currency. Cash or Credit is accepted.
> Escanoe Math: I will assume that is daily and in pesos and 920 is for a 2BR. Using google it converts it to $38.51 per day
> 
> 
> MFs                   $434
> Xchange fee      $259
> Resort Fee         $269.57
> 
> Total:                  $962.57
> 
> ****************************************************
> UPDATE!
> 
> There are some in RCI open inventory now. Here are point values in HGVC. And it looks like these values are steady over time. A studio's HGVC point valuation is the same in January as July.
> 
> View attachment 52561
> 
> I am not going to do an HGVC price calculation. Many of you have better ratios than me. The current HGVC RCI exchange fee is $249 ($10 less than using an RCI Points account). The resort fee is the same.



Which resort code did you use?
I used RF29.  Says no units available, and they only have studios and 1 BR (for that resort code).


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Mowogo said:


> No, Marriott/Vistana locked themselves into June for major information to investors.  Hilton is going for a segmented product (HVC vs HGVC vs bHC), while Marriott Vacations offers segmentation on properties, but sells a singular offering (With luxury being available with the same currency as regular) which makes the integration very different.  For HVC there was just work needed to make exchanging with the existing HGVC and bHC currencies work relatively easy.  Marriott is eliminating the sales of the Vistana Flex products when they move sales to the combined product.  HGV is being pushed by the former owners of Diamond to return cash to investors immediately, where MVW has more latitude to try and create a compelling product.



I don't think MVC is driven primarily by the HGV announcement, Shareholders of MVC want to see returns on the investment in Vistana, II and Hyatt because they have been taking too long. Wall Street pressures are no better than HGV.

Perhaps HGV is modeling themselves more like the Worldmark/Wyndham/Shell model where each operates semi-autonomously but if you want access to trade in another pool you pay a fee instead of one massive points program. IMO I am in favor of more efficient MF in some pools and grandfathering of deeds, so I am not required to pay for mud weeks can choose my fees, rather than spreading the MF and fees across all = expensive. MVC and Vistana are grandfathering deeds too.


----------



## escanoe

hurnik said:


> Which resort code did you use?
> I used RF29.  Says no units available, and they only have studios and 1 BR (for that resort code).



#DN82


----------



## hurnik

escanoe said:


> #DN82



Ah, that's why.  Great, thanks!  
Interesting that RCI has some availability but my Interval account does not.


----------



## Diana333

dayooper said:


> (This is my post from a different thread. I figure this should have a post in it’s own.)
> 
> Looks like it’s $7000 to join HGV Max without a developer purchase. Here is a screenshot of the reference page from my account.View attachment 50866
> 
> Here’s another statement from the reference page about resale.
> 
> View attachment 50867
> Does this mean if you own resale you can’t be part of HGVMax or does it mean the purchase doesn’t qualify?
> 
> To me, it doesn’t matter. We won’t buy from the developer nor will we pay $7000 to join. I’m really disappointed in HGV, but not surprised. The desire to soak owners for even more money is too great. There will be plenty of people who will join and they will make their money, but all of the speculation a year ago was correct, this merger is a negative for many owners.


I signed up for HGVMax, and I was told that if you bought your Timeshare on a resale, then you would not qualify to buy HGVMax.


escanoe said:


> The thing I see here that looks likely to devalue what I own is HGV Max owners having "unlimited home resort priority."
> 
> I assume that means in a matter of time until us commoners will not be visiting Ocean Oak, Lagoon Tower, or ski resorts in ski season unless we own there.
> 
> I perceive the value of my Vegas ownership going down soon.
> 
> If I owned Ocean Oak and was eligible for HGV Max, I would think about purchasing.


Hello Escanoe. I hope the value of your Las Vegas timeshare will go up. Since there is now a Major League Football Team in Las Vegas, the value of all Timeshare in Las Vegas will hopefully increase.


----------



## Diana333

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMHO...At $7k I believe they are going to sell a lot of these. Most buyers are not Tuggers and won't know the downsides of a 6 month reservation especially since there is no other MF obligation beyond the higher club fee (which is a nice annuity stream for HGV).
> 
> Compared to the crazy $20 - $30k buy-in + high DP annual MF cited in the MVC/Vistana boards, anything under $10k as a one time cost is not bad.
> 
> Diamond Owners: Does Diamond have the equivalent of last minute Open Season Rates? Are they worth it? Is there is availability at 6 months for Cabo Azul, Maui and Sedona during regular season.
> 
> For us, Max could be a good strategy to get access without more MF. Once enrolled, we could buy another resale for more points to use in the Max program. (We already have a retail unit so qualify for MAX and already pay the higher AI fee so no change). Unless they provide us with a great deal, it seems we could hold off and call and enroll in the program just before we want to stay at a Diamond property vs. buying right now. So can wait and see how this turns out in terms of availability before pulling the trigger.
> 
> I expect the Diamond program for Diamond owners may be similar at 6 months (with the exception of bHC windows), but may require the purchase of additional points unless Diamond Elite. To get 9 months HGVC club, they would need to convert to HGV with a Diamond trust trade-in value.


Hi CalGalTraveler. You are pretty knowledgeable about this program already. We just bought into HGV Max, and did a Diamond Trust Trade-In. What I am noticing already, is that there is TONS of available resorts in Hawaii with HGVMax, sixteen pages of them, so that is a big thing, because a Diamond Representative told me I won't have enough points to go to Hawaii with HGVMax, but I am seeing plenty of options there. Sure, if you want to stay at a Hilton with points you may have to save up points for two years, but there is so much more than just Hilton Resorts there. There are no yearly fees to have access to RCI trades, or Direct Xchange trades. You just pay the Xchange fee per vacation, and you can go MANY places in the U.S., Europe, Canada, Asia, Africa Etc. So, yes, I guess some people would consider me a sucker for buying into HGVMax, but I think there is going to be a lot of access to many different resorts at many different Tier levels. I had expected changes to pricing structures anyway since Hilton bought out Diamond Resorts, and as you pointed out, I am paying the same amount to Hilton on monthly payments as I was paying to Diamond, and my Maintanance and Taxes are actually Lower!!!


----------



## HuskerATL

Diana333 said:


> Hi CalGalTraveler. You are pretty knowledgeable about this program already. We just bought into HGV Max, and did a Diamond Trust Trade-In. What I am noticing already, is that there is TONS of available resorts in Hawaii with HGVMax, sixteen pages of them, so that is a big thing, because a Diamond Representative told me I won't have enough points to go to Hawaii with HGVMax, but I am seeing plenty of options there. Sure, if you want to stay at a Hilton with points you may have to save up points for two years, but there is so much more than just Hilton Resorts there. There are no yearly fees to have access to RCI trades, or Direct Xchange trades. You just pay the Xchange fee per vacation, and you can go MANY places in the U.S., Europe, Canada, Asia, Africa Etc. So, yes, I guess some people would consider me a sucker for buying into HGVMax, but I think there is going to be a lot of access to many different resorts at many different Tier levels. I had expected changes to pricing structures anyway since Hilton Bought out Diamond Resorts, and as you pointed out, I am paying the same amount to Hilton on monthly payments as I was paying to Diamond, and my Maintanance and Taxes are Lower!!!


I am curious how you are seeing what properties are in HGVmax when the Max portal isn't up yet? Are referring to the DRI portal?


----------



## jabberwocky

Diana333 said:


> I signed up for HGVMax, and I was told that if you bought your Timeshare on a resale, then you would not qualify to buy HGVMax.


Sounds like buying resale is a win-win!


----------



## Diana333

HuskerATL said:


> I am curious how you are seeing what properties are in HGVmax when the Max portal isn't up yet? Are referring to the DRI portal?


I'm watching the new Direct Xchange Portal for HGVMax being built by checking availablility every day. I have a view of Traditional DEX and the New Dex for HGVMax on my Diamond Portal.


----------



## HuskerATL

Diana333 said:


> I'm watching the new Direct Xchange Portal for HGVMax being built by checking availablility every day. I have a view of Traditional DEX and the New Dex for HGVMax on my Diamond Portal.


That is interesting.  So in the Diamond portal, there is a view into the new Max portal?  I had heard that it would not be available until August.  So you are seeing which DRI properties will be made available to HGV Max members when it is available to them?


----------



## Diana333

HuskerATL said:


> That is interesting.  So in the Diamond portal, there is a view into the new Max portal?  I had heard that it would not be available until August.  So you are seeing which DRI properties will be made available to HGV Max members when it is available to them?





HuskerATL said:


> That is interesting.  So in the Diamond portal, there is a view into the new Max portal?  I had heard that it would not be available until August.  So you are seeing which DRI properties will be made available to HGV Max members when it is available to them?


Yes, I believe that's what I'm seeing. But I was told they are not available for booking until August.


----------



## cindyc

So, @diana323 did you initially buy your DRI deeded week resale?

I have 3 resale weeks and developer US Collection Points. They offered us HGV Max at a presentation in February. Interestingly, they offered to "launder" my 3 resale weeks for 10,000 points each with a purchase, but I declined. 

In essence they had already done that when I made my developer.purchase which got me Platinum and 13 month booking window. I am not interested in giving up my deeds.and since I.also own HGVC resale, I just don't foresee an upside for me.



Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


----------



## geist1223

Under the previous releases it said if you bought resell after the Announcement Date you could not join HGV MAX. But if you bought resell before the Announcement Date you could go HGV MAX for a minimum of $7K.


----------



## Diana333

cindyc said:


> So, @diana323 did you initially buy your DRI deeded week resale?
> 
> I have 3 resale weeks and developer US Collection Points. They offered us HGV Max at a presentation in February. Interestingly, they offered to "launder" my 3 resale weeks for 10,000 points each with a purchase, but I declined.
> 
> In essence they had already done that when I made my developer.purchase which got me Platinum and 13 month booking window. I am not interested in giving up my deeds.and since I.also own HGVC resale, I just don't foresee an upside for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


No, I didn't buy my DRI week on resale. Is a deeded Timeshare property better than a Title held in trust? I agree that everyone's situation is different. If I owned three resale weeks I probably wouldn't give them up either


----------



## Diana333

geist1223 said:


> Under the previous releases it said if you bought resell after the Announcement Date you could not join HGV MAX. But if you bought resell before the Announcement Date you could go HGV MAX for a minimum of $7K.


Ok so there was a time limit to when you could join HGVMax with a resale week?


----------



## dayooper

Diana333 said:


> Ok so there was a time limit to when you could join HGVMax with a resale week?



As of right now, HGVC resale weeks are not eligible for Max. This may change in the future but we can’t join Max (I’m a full resale owner).


----------



## HuskerATL

dayooper said:


> As of right now, HGVC resale weeks are not eligible for Max. This may change in the future but we can’t join Max (I’m a full resale owner).


Unless you "upgrade" one but I suspect something else will come down the road.


----------



## dayooper

HuskerATL said:


> Unless you "upgrade" one but I suspect something else will come down the road.



Yup. As of right now, we resale owners can’t pay the $7000 to enroll. I agree there probably will be a way in the future, but right now there is no way. I’m not really worried about it as $7000 is way to much for what you get.


----------



## tk25

I don’t think it is clear that there is any difference in HGVC resale owner status based on the date of HGV MAX announcement early April 2022.


----------



## tombanjo

Don't feel bad, Elite owners who dropped 100 grand on developer purchases are in the cold right now too


----------



## HuskerATL

tombanjo said:


> Don't feel bad, Elite owners who dropped 100 grand on developer purchases are in the cold right now too


These are the people who really got the shaft....


----------



## dayooper

tombanjo said:


> Don't feel bad, Elite owners who dropped 100 grand on developer purchases are in the cold right now too





HuskerATL said:


> These are the people who really got the shaft....



Yes, they are.


----------



## Talent312

dayooper said:


> Yup. As of right now, we resale owners can’t pay the $7000 to enroll. I agree there probably will be a way in the future, but right now there is no way. I’m not really worried about it as $7000 is way to much for what you get.


As another poster noted, this limitation a actually a benefit is disguise.
Frugal TS buyers should not be tempted to drop $7K on this tur[key].

As a HGVC owner for ~15 years, I've not even been tempted by a DRI.
IMHO, it's a $$-grab by HGVC for little more than a garnish on a plate.
I'm sure there are fine DRI's, but for me, it would not the worth it.
.


----------



## SmithOp

Talent312 said:


> As another poster noted, this limitation a actually a benefit is disguise.
> Frugal TS buyers should not be tempted to drop $7K on this tur[key].
> 
> As a HGVC owner for ~15 years, I've not even been tempted by a DRI.
> IMHO, it's a $$-grab by HGVC for little more than a garnish on a plate.
> I'm sure there are fine DRI's, but for me, it would not the worth it.
> .


I agree, I'm not disappointed in the HGVC choices I've had and will continue to have as a resale owner, no amount of lip flapping by a salesman will change my opinion. FOMO is BS on this turkey.

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


----------



## dayooper

Talent312 said:


> As another poster noted, this limitation a actually a benefit is disguise.
> Frugal TS buyers should not be tempted to drop $7K on this tur[key].
> 
> As a HGVC owner for ~15 years, I've not even been tempted by a DRI.
> IMHO, it's a $$-grab by HGVC for little more than a garnish on a plate.
> I'm sure there are fine DRI's, but for me, it would not the worth it.
> .



I agree. I think there are going to be some pretty disappointed owners that spent a lot of money to get to a higher status. While I’ve only been a resale only owner for 4 years, I have been very happy with the HGVC places we have stayed. I don’t want to put all of my vacation money into 1 basket. The 6 month time frame is not worth the money it would take. The loyalty searches? Ridiculous!

The biggest issue about paying that kind of money to join right now is we don’t even know what the program will look like! There are reports they have pushed the launch date back to late 2022. Who knows how much farther they will push it back? I am very happy with what I have now.


----------



## HuskerATL

I was glancing over the Max info again and this last line in the paragraph below tells me that the Legacy Search Request will not book at 10 months...it may start searching but only book after the club reservation window closes.  I don't think it was worded this way before so it must have been updated to clarify.  It is on the Max FAQ page: https://club.hiltongrandvacations.com/en/hgv-max/faqs 

*Will HGV Max impact availability for existing Club Members who do not buy in to the program?*
Your Home Week Reservation Window remains unchanged, and HGV Max will have no impact on your ability to reserve your Home Week. For Members with Home Resort or Hilton Club priority, there will also be no impact on a Member’s ability to make reservations during these reservation windows. *HGV Max reservations can only be made after the Club reservation window* and starting six months or less before the check-out date.


----------



## WORLD TRAVELER

Noticed this posting in the HGVC Facebook owners group page from someone who posted about their owner update experience at HGVC Ocean Enclave resort.  This could be the future direction of the Timeshare program with HGVC.

Just left presentation 
Minimum 4000 point purchase @$8 a point = $32,000 and u will pay approximately 2200 maintenance fee each year for that extra 4000 points. These are trust points and considered a separate account from your deed account. 
They will be doing away with deed direct sales going foward and I was specifically told they were not processing any redeed/upgrades!!!


----------



## HuskerATL

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> Noticed this posting in the HGVC Facebook owners group page from someone who posted about their owner update experience at HGVC Ocean Enclave resort.  This could be the future direction of the Timeshare program with HGVC.
> 
> Just left presentation
> Minimum 4000 point purchase @$8 a point = $32,000 and u will pay approximately 2200 maintenance fee each year for that extra 4000 points. These are trust points and considered a separate account from your deed account.
> They will be doing away with deed direct sales going foward and I was specifically told they were not processing any redeed/upgrades!!!


Well, we know that new deeds or upgrade sales going away isn't true, at the moment, but the point discussion does align with what I heard at my owner update in April. That is expensive for those points though.


----------



## Mongoose

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> Noticed this posting in the HGVC Facebook owners group page from someone who posted about their owner update experience at HGVC Ocean Enclave resort.  This could be the future direction of the Timeshare program with HGVC.
> 
> Just left presentation
> Minimum 4000 point purchase @$8 a point = $32,000 and u will pay approximately 2200 maintenance fee each year for that extra 4000 points. These are trust points and considered a separate account from your deed account.
> They will be doing away with deed direct sales going foward and I was specifically told they were not processing any redeed/upgrades!!!


How can 4000 points be $2200?  I pay much less than that for 11,200.


----------



## dayooper

Mongoose said:


> How can 4000 points be $2200?  I pay much less than that for 11,200.



Because this is one of the ways salesman are convincing owners to purchase. Scaring owners to purchase now with a deed and a lower MF so they can avoid the higher cost later. Could they move to trust points? Sure, but a salesman who is tyring to convince people to purchase right now has motivation to promote the high cost, high MF point structure whether switching to a trust is true, rumored or totally made up.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Was this poster an HGV deed owner and they were offered Diamond trust points?

IMO if this is a trend and not a sales ploy this pulls directly from the MVC playbook. There is a chart on the MVC forum that shows the rise in points purchase cost over time. But what was also shared was the rise in MF/point of these trusts as junk deeds were added to the portfolio.

And when you want out and want to sell your points they sell for a fraction but rather than ROFR they take $3/pp on the transaction in order to "enroll them" aka make them usable in the system. So MVC makes money coming and going. What a business model!  The only redeeming quality of the trust points AFAIK is that you can rent them out and also rent them if you only  have a few points. However, that's a high price to pay. Only deeds for me.


----------



## Mongoose

dayooper said:


> Because this is one of the ways salesman are convincing owners to purchase. Scaring owners to purchase now with a deed and a lower MF so they can avoid the higher cost later. Could they move to trust points? Sure, but a salesman who is tyring to convince people to purchase right now has motivation to promote the high cost, high MF point structure whether switching to a trust is true, rumored or totally made up.


4000 points must be for a low season. The MF are probably higher than retail to rent the room.


----------



## Nowaker

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> owner update experience at HGVC Ocean Enclave resort.


Note: their sales center is most likely run by the developer of MB resorts and not HGVCorp. They may be simply pushing what is most convenient for them - e.g. pushing sales of a product that pays the highest commission.

I read a lot of horror stories from Myrtle Beach and HHI resorts specifically. They seem to be the worst of all.

Deeds are not going away. HGVC cannot replace existing deeds with trust points, even if they ROFR a unit. Deed restrictions from the original sale convey to future sales, and even HGVC is bound by them. Once a restrictive covenant is applied on a property, it's a done deal. So deeds are here to stay for all existing HGVC resorts. (not saying future ones will have it)


----------



## Mowogo

Nowaker said:


> Note: their sales center is most likely run by the developer of MB resorts and not HGVCorp. They may be simply pushing what is most convenient for them - e.g. pushing sales of a product that pays the highest commission.
> 
> I read a lot of horror stories from Myrtle Beach and HHI resorts specifically. They seem to be the worst of all.
> 
> Deeds are not going away. HGVC cannot replace existing deeds with trust points, even if they ROFR a unit. Deed restrictions from the original sale convey to future sales, and even HGVC is bound by them. Once a restrictive covenant is applied on a property, it's a done deal. So deeds are here to stay for all existing HGVC resorts. (not saying future ones will have it)


There are markets that will always have deeds because HGVC knows they can make more money selling certain properties and seasons as deeds over a trust point system.  When I did a Wyndham presentation in Hawaii the salesperson mentioned that some people were still buying developer deeded weeks, and they’ve been a pure points system for a while.


----------



## dioxide45

Nowaker said:


> Note: their sales center is most likely run by the developer of MB resorts and not HGVCorp. They may be simply pushing what is most convenient for them - e.g. pushing sales of a product that pays the highest commission.
> 
> I read a lot of horror stories from Myrtle Beach and HHI resorts specifically. They seem to be the worst of all.
> 
> Deeds are not going away. HGVC cannot replace existing deeds with trust points, even if they ROFR a unit. Deed restrictions from the original sale convey to future sales, and even HGVC is bound by them. Once a restrictive covenant is applied on a property, it's a done deal. So deeds are here to stay for all existing HGVC resorts. (not saying future ones will have it)


How have Marriott, Vistana and many other developers been able to convey deeds to REITs and sell them as points?


----------



## Nowaker

dioxide45 said:


> How have Marriott, Vistana and many other developers been able to convey deeds to REITs and sell them as points?


You can put anything into a trust. A trust is just a new owner (like a person). Nothing unusual here.

But selling points from them. Now that you point this out, then I don't know. Maybe these companies structured the restrictive covenants to allow more flexibility. Which also suggests HGVC could have done the same. Which invalidates my argument. Thanks for pointing it out. Now that I think of it, the companies you mentioned most likely pay the MF as usual to the HOA, and then put this unit as inventory into their new system that they sell points from.

I guess I'll have to follow one of my HGVC deeds to the initial grant and track down a complete text of all restrictive covenants on that piece of real estate to see what HGVC can and cannot do.


----------



## dioxide45

Nowaker said:


> You can put anything into a trust. A trust is just a new owner (like a person). Nothing unusual here.
> 
> But selling points from them. Now that you point this out, then I don't know. Maybe these companies structured the restrictive covenants to allow more flexibility. Which also suggests HGVC could have done the same. Which invalidates my argument. Thanks for pointing it out. Now that I think of it, the companies you mentioned most likely pay the MF as usual to the HOA, and then put this unit as inventory into their new system that they sell points from.
> 
> I guess I'll have to follow one of my HGVC deeds to the initial grant and track down a complete text of all restrictive covenants on that piece of real estate to see what HGVC can and cannot do.


I am not sure how HGV would be fundamentally different than the others. I am sure when Vistana and Marriott created weeks and deeds they weren't thinking trusts. They just started conveying deeds to the trust and declared points. The trust is a new entity. I see no reason why HGV can't do the same. Diamond does the same with their collections.


----------



## dayooper

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure how HGV would be fundamentally different than the others. I am sure when Vistana and Marriott created weeks and deeds they weren't thinking trusts. They just started conveying deeds to the trust and declared points. The trust is a new entity. I see no reason why HGV can't do the same. Diamond does the same with their collections.



When they switched from deeds to trust points, didn’t MVC have to offer existing owners to enroll so they would have enough to have a club? I know they have a lot of points with DRI, but Max isn’t set up that way right now. I know things can change, but this seems like it’s so far down the road.


----------



## dioxide45

dayooper said:


> When they switched from deeds to trust points, didn’t MVC have to offer existing owners to enroll so they would have enough to have a club? I know they have a lot of points with DRI, but Max isn’t set up that way right now. I know things can change, but this seems like it’s so far down the road.


There are two different things at play with Marriott. A trust and the exchange company. They can't change a deed you own to points or to the trust unless you do one of these things; sell it back to them, give it back to them, sell it to someone else and they ROFR, they foreclose due to non payment of loan or the HOA forecloses due to non payment of maintenance fees and then the HOA gives it or sells it to HGV. When MVC rolled out their points program in 2010, they took all the unsold inventory and dumped it into a REIT. They declared points on the REIT and started selling those points. Weeks owners were able to enroll in points. HGV wouldn't need to do that because they already have a point program for weeks owners.

From what I understand about Max is that it is just access to DRI The Club inventory at 6 months for select resorts as set out by the exchange rules. If you make a reservation in The Club at 6 months, your HGV deed becomes available to others to book through MAX. DRI The Club is really just an exchange company, like HGVC or the Marriott MVC Exchange Company or even II and RCI. Just the reservation windows are different.


----------



## HuskerATL

Looks like there are some changes on the Max front. A person posted his on the FB Elite page: 
there’s an HGV Max logo in the upper left of virtually every screen when I use the website now. That’s new. And then no reservation fees when I booked. That was definitely new.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure how HGV would be fundamentally different than the others. I am sure when Vistana and Marriott created weeks and deeds they weren't thinking trusts. They just started conveying deeds to the trust and declared points. The trust is a new entity. I see no reason why HGV can't do the same. Diamond does the same with their collections.



HGV has discussed creating a trust several times in the investor calls.  In the briefing right after the Diamond deal was announced,   HGV management indicated that acquiring Diamond  eliminated one to two years of work creating a trust.  Based on their comments, clearly creating a trust was possible, and they had explored it.  

What we don't know is if the current HGV MAX is the final product or if that might still evolve over time.


----------



## HuskerATL

So, I went to an owners update today...I know, glutton for punishment but I wanted to ask a few questions. 

First they asked what we are interested in and we discussed Max. I told them that we are waiting for HVC properties to be available and the $7k fee then we would consider. They acted confused about the $7k fee so I told them about the reference guide and the email from Mark Wang. They then left and after a while came back to offer us with a $7k upgrade offer to our retail ownership. The manager said that all our points would come in and since we are Elite Premier now then we would be Premier+ in Max. They then pitched the 0.30 exchange value for flights, cruises, etc.and the $700 OS credit. He also said that we would keep all our Elite Premier benefits plus get the Max Premier+ benefits. I don't buy it and we passed.

Interesting couple of comments by them that resale would come in and maintaining elite benefits. I don't think they knew what they were talking about though and multiple times they said that they didn't know.

Until it is in a contract or the reference guide, then it is just talk


----------



## escanoe

It must be like going to a car dealership and them trying to sell you a car that is not commercially available yet, many of the technical aspects remain unknown, and they are not even clear themselves on the manufacturer incentives that have been mentioned in advertising and direct marketing.

I am glad you share what you learn in these meetings, but my vacation time is scarce enough that "owner updates" do not appear in my future. Thanks, but no thanks.




HuskerATL said:


> So, I went to an owners update today...I know, glutton for punishment but I wanted to ask a few questions.
> 
> First they asked what we are interested in and we discussed Max. I told them that we are waiting for HVC properties to be available and the $7k fee then we would consider. They acted confused about the $7k fee so I told them about the reference guide and the email from Mark Wang. They then left and after a while came back to offer us with a $7k upgrade offer to our retail ownership. The manager said that all our points would come in and since we are Elite Premier now then we would be Premier+ in Max. They then pitched the 0.30 exchange value for flights, cruises, etc.and the $700 OS credit. He also said that we would keep all our Elite Premier benefits plus get the Max Premier+ benefits. I don't buy it and we passed.
> 
> Interesting couple of comments by them that resale would come in and maintaining elite benefits. I don't think they knew what they were talking about though and multiple times they said that they didn't know.
> 
> Until it is in a contract or the reference guide, then it is just talk


----------



## Bxian

We own 3 SW Florida weeks. I am confused about how this will impact us. At the time we purchased, ALL weeks being sold were resale weeks. I believe that this is true with all of the SW Florida resorts. They are also highly desirable weeks. Are we going to be precluded from trading in HGVC or using Open Season?


----------



## dayooper

Bxian said:


> We own 3 SW Florida weeks. I am confused about how this will impact us. At the time we purchased, ALL weeks being sold were resale weeks. I believe that this is true with all of the SW Florida resorts. They are also highly desirable weeks. Are we going to be precluded from trading in HGVC or using Open Season?



I highly doubt that you will lose the ability to trade in HGVC bc not lose the ability to use open season.


----------



## MattnTricia

HuskerATL said:


> So, I went to an owners update today...I know, glutton for punishment but I wanted to ask a few questions.
> 
> First they asked what we are interested in and we discussed Max. I told them that we are waiting for HVC properties to be available and the $7k fee then we would consider. They acted confused about the $7k fee so I told them about the reference guide and the email from Mark Wang. They then left and after a while came back to offer us with a $7k upgrade offer to our retail ownership. The manager said that all our points would come in and since we are Elite Premier now then we would be Premier+ in Max. They then pitched the 0.30 exchange value for flights, cruises, etc.and the $700 OS credit. He also said that we would keep all our Elite Premier benefits plus get the Max Premier+ benefits. I don't buy it and we passed.
> 
> Interesting couple of comments by them that resale would come in and maintaining elite benefits. I don't think they knew what they were talking about though and multiple times they said that they didn't know.
> 
> Until it is in a contract or the reference guide, then it is just talk



We are visiting almost monthly for the rest of the year. 
Most of the trips are Vegas/San Diego but we have Orlando mixed in for the holidays as well. 
This is the first mention of anyone being offered the $7000 upgrade. It would have been interesting to see what your contract looked like. 

I may need to test the waters on our trip in a few weeks despite my distain for the owners updates. 
Not willing to even consider an entry fee for MAX until more is known in writing. 

Thank You for Sharing Husker


----------



## pedro47

MattnTricia said:


> We are visiting almost monthly for the rest of the year.
> Most of the trips are Vegas/San Diego but we have Orlando mixed in for the holidays as well.
> This is the first mention of anyone being offered the $7000 upgrade. It would have been interesting to see what your contract looked like.
> 
> I may need to test the waters on our trip in a few weeks despite my distain for the owners updates.
> Not willing to even consider an entry fee for MAX until more is known in writing.
> 
> Thank You for Sharing Husker


Please keep The TUG Forum posted on information you are willing to share.


----------



## HuskerATL

MattnTricia said:


> We are visiting almost monthly for the rest of the year.
> Most of the trips are Vegas/San Diego but we have Orlando mixed in for the holidays as well.
> This is the first mention of anyone being offered the $7000 upgrade. It would have been interesting to see what your contract looked like.
> 
> I may need to test the waters on our trip in a few weeks despite my distain for the owners updates.
> Not willing to even consider an entry fee for MAX until more is known in writing.
> 
> Thank You for Sharing Husker


Just to add, the "upgrade" was actually a downgrade.  They wanted us to upgrade our annual Tuscany to an EOY for $7k but get in Max.  I am also not convinced that you would get both HGVClub Legacy Elite and Max Tier benefits.


----------



## Cewood

I upgraded my ownership in W57th and am now in HGVMax and now seeing some changes in the website when I log in.  One change that I have noticed is that my minimum reservation for all HGV-owned resorts is no longer 3 days.  I can book any one of the HGV-owned resorts for a minimum of one night.  I don't see this as a written benefit of HGVMax, but the change in my ability to reserve outside my home resort has changed.


----------



## HuskerATL

Cewood said:


> I upgraded my ownership in W57th and am now in HGVMax and now seeing some changes in the website when I log in.  One change that I have noticed is that my minimum reservation for all HGV-owned resorts is no longer 3 days.  I can book any one of the HGV-owned resorts for a minimum of one night.  I don't see this as a written benefit of HGVMax, but the change in my ability to reserve outside my home resort has changed.


Interesting.  Is that both open season and club points?  Did you try that with non-bHC?  I can book 1 night with Clubpoints in bHC, except Liberty, even though I don't own one and not in Max but I can't for non-bHC.


----------



## MattnTricia

HuskerATL said:


> Just to add, the "upgrade" was actually a downgrade.  They wanted us to upgrade our annual Tuscany to an EOY for $7k but get in Max.  I am also not convinced that you would get both HGVClub Legacy Elite and Max Tier benefits.



That makes more sense that there was some sort of points transaction involved.  Thanks for the update


----------



## Cewood

Husker - Yes this is for all HGV properties, not just bHC properties.  Affiliates, like SW Florida are all 3 day minimum. The 1 day minimum now looks like my ability to book W57th for a 1 day stay (although we don't really do that).  For some of the properties the Open Season requires 2 day minimum.  Just an interesting observation...


----------



## dayooper

Cewood said:


> Husker - Yes this is for all HGV properties, not just bHC properties.  Affiliates, like SW Florida are all 3 day minimum. The 1 day minimum now looks like my ability to book W57th for a 1 day stay (although we don't really do that).  For some of the properties the Open Season requires 2 day minimum.  Just an interesting observation...



If this is the case, we need to reconsider the points shuffling method. If a Max member can book 1 night, that eliminates the safety net of shuffling with 1 or 2 nights. I’m not sure I’m comfortable points shuffling myself anymore. I might have lost those 2 nights at Ocean Oak last year if this was in place. 

FYI - This could raise the MF’s. If members are only 1 or 2 night stays, the housekeeping cost will rise. I see this as a bigger issue in places like Vegas where owners might only want to stay 1 or 2 nights.


----------



## Eric B

dayooper said:


> FYI - This could raise the MF’s. If members are only 1 or 2 night stays, the housekeeping cost will rise. I see this as a bigger issue in places like Vegas where owners might only want to stay 1 or 2 nights.



At least for W 57th Street there is a housekeeping fee tacked on to stays 3 nights or shorter, so it seems to me that HOAs could set things up to cover the costs.  If HGVC decides to include short stays as a benefit for Max, they would probably need to budget for it separately similar to the way Wyndham budgets for VIP benefits through the sales and marketing budget rather than the HOA budgets.  IMHO, Max is a sales tool for HGVC and shouldn't be an expense for the HOAs, so should not drive up MFs.


----------



## Cewood

W57th has some demand that is probably similar for all of the NYC properties. Many owners are from the greater NYC/NJ area and come into midtown for weekends. Not sure that any of the beach properties, for example, have any guests who would like to stay for 1 or 2 days. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## escanoe

If real, the bigger deal is that it is the end of walking reservations and knowing you have a good chance at adding the next day. 



dayooper said:


> If this is the case, we need to reconsider the points shuffling method. If a Max member can book 1 night, that eliminates the safety net of shuffling with 1 or 2 nights. I’m not sure I’m comfortable points shuffling myself anymore. I might have lost those 2 nights at Ocean Oak last year if this was in place.
> 
> FYI - This could raise the MF’s. If members are only 1 or 2 night stays, the housekeeping cost will rise. I see this as a bigger issue in places like Vegas where owners might only want to stay 1 or 2 nights.


----------



## tk25

I wonder if this one night reservation report could just be a temporary web site glitch.


----------



## pedro47

When does HGVC normally publish their Club References Guide?


----------



## HuskerATL

pedro47 said:


> When does HGVC normally publish their Club References Guide?


This year was April 4th


----------



## pedro47

HuskerATL said:


> This year was April 4th


Thanks, with the acquisition of Diamond Resorts, do you feel they will publish an addendum HGVC GUIDE Booklet?


----------



## escanoe

tk25 said:


> I wonder if this one night reservation report could just be a temporary web site glitch.



I hope that it is. In some ways it would be more flexibility for MAX owners. But it would mess up the ability to walk a reservation (and having the ability to have more than a one-night reservation when going for hard to get resorts) for everyone.  

I have a hard time beleiveing this is something HGVC would want to do.


----------



## HuskerATL

pedro47 said:


> Thanks, with the acquisition of Diamond Resorts, do you feel they will publish an addendum HGVC GUIDE Booklet?


That is a good question.  They should to explain any changes, if there will be.


----------



## escanoe

I feel like they are going to have to put something more out on MAX once it becomes operational ... if for no other reason than to create some relief for the customer service representatives.



pedro47 said:


> Thanks, with the acquisition of Diamond Resorts, do you feel they will publish an addendum HGVC GUIDE Booklet?


----------



## dayooper

escanoe said:


> I feel like they are going to have to put something more out on MAX once it becomes operational ... if for no other reason than to create some relief for the customer service representatives.



What will make the company more money, relieving stress of CSR’s or salesman using the ambiguity of Max to make a sale?


----------



## SmithOp

escanoe said:


> If real, the bigger deal is that it is the end of walking reservations and knowing you have a good chance at adding the next day.


Not necessarily, it might add a little more competition at midnight to grab that extra day but I don't think there will be many using that strategy.  The person reporting this even admitted he doesn't use it, post 314.

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


----------



## escanoe

SmithOp said:


> it might add a little more competition at midnight to grab that extra day but I don't think there will be many using that strategy.



Yes. It increases competition for each new day as it becomes available exponentially. Today, it is only the hand-full of people that have a 3-day reservation locked in that can add the most recent day when it becomes available (assuming walking is necessary to make the booking).

Open it up to where anyone in HGVC that is in Max can book any single new day as it becomes available (without having to have previous days locked in) .... I assure you that will make booking Ocean Oak, a FL affiliate, or Lagoon Tower, way more of a challenge.

Again, I don't necessarily believe this is happening. We are mostly chasing our tail in theoretical discussion at this point. But I assure you it would really foul up the ability to walk a tough reservation. I am not saying it would ruin the club, but it would mess with my current game.


----------



## escanoe

dayooper said:


> What will make the company more money, relieving stress of CSR’s or salesman using the ambiguity of Max to make a sale?



I don't know that it will make much difference. I don't think most people buying Max are the type that read rule books before going to a presentation. The regular HGVC rule book is transparent on the traditional HGVC program. I don't suspect that stands in the way of all the developer sales they have been making.


----------

