# What is better Points wth Deed.or wyndham club acces w n deeds?



## wilmarie53 (Jul 6, 2010)

I want  buy in wynhman but  I dont know what is better . I saw auctions in pompano beach florida & club access with no deed. What is better? Please help me.


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## timeos2 (Jul 6, 2010)

A UDI (deeded - pure points, single resort based) ownership is the cleanest to belong to the Wyndham system.  They are available at VERY low resale cost (as in maybe just the current fees & closing) for virtually any Wyndham resort you care to have as your home base.  The annual fees are the other wild card and look for a home resort that isn't too new (fees subsidized & likely to sky rocket when that ends soon) and that have n't been too low too long (almost guaranteed special assessment on the way for those).  

Don't get converted weeks or the trust points as there are too many quirks with both of those.


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## dcdowden (Jul 6, 2010)

At this point in time I think I would probably just look to rent from people that already own. There seem to be plenty of people willing to rent for about the same price as maintenance fees, and you don't have any up front cost or long term commitment. Give it a try and see how you like it.  By the way, you can probably rent Westin, Marriott and other places for the equivalent of maintenance fees without having to pay RCI/II exchange fees either.
Good luck,
Doug


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## theo (Jul 8, 2010)

*Why???*



timeos2 said:


> Don't get converted weeks or the trust points as there are too many quirks with both of those.



John:
Not seeking to argue, but why do you advise against converted weeks? 
They seem (to me) to be straightforward, providing the best of all worlds within Wyndham. 
What am I missing regarding the alleged "quirks" with converted weeks?


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## timeos2 (Jul 8, 2010)

theo said:


> John:
> Not seeking to argue, but why do you advise against converted weeks?
> They seem (to me) to be straightforward, providing the best of all worlds within Wyndham.
> What am I missing regarding the alleged "quirks" with converted weeks?



Unlike UDI based points - which still give you a home resort and deed - converted weeks are limited at your home resort to use in the original, fixed period they were sold in. Except for that they both are the same. But to give up the 13 month priority for reservation and have it replaced with an inflexible, fixed week only choice at your home resort flies in the face of what points are about. Use them anywhere - anytime.  Plus the cost to convert a week to points is high (not a factor if it's already been converted of course).  And all converted weeks are at the oldest resorts (may or may not be an issue). 

The "purest" points are the UDI, deeded type. The worst are trust based with the converted weeks falling in between. In general points are better than weeks in the Wyndham system.


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## theo (Jul 9, 2010)

*Thoughts...*



timeos2 said:


> Unlike UDI based points - which still give you a home resort and deed - converted weeks are limited at your home resort to use in the original, fixed period they were sold in. Except for that they both are the same. But to give up the 13 month priority for reservation and have it replaced with an inflexible, fixed week only choice at your home resort flies in the face of what points are about. Use them anywhere - anytime.  Plus the cost to convert a week to points is high (not a factor if it's already been converted of course).  And all converted weeks are at the oldest resorts (may or may not be an issue).



I guess I can see your point, but I respectfully submit that a converted week's points can also be "pooled" before the usage year begins, thereby considerably expanding the range of their usage (i.e., use them anywhere, anytime --- irrespective of home resort). No? 

I have no intentions of ever returning to my "home" resort, but I acquired the (already converted) fixed week in prime season for next to nothing and I look forward to visiting other places with the 182k points.


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## timeos2 (Jul 9, 2010)

*One case where there is a difference*



theo said:


> I guess I can see your point, but I respectfully submit that a converted week's points can also be "pooled" before the usage year begins, thereby considerably expanding the range of their usage (i.e., use them anywhere, anytime --- irrespective of home resort). No?
> 
> I have no intentions of ever returning to my "home" resort, but I acquired the (already converted) fixed week in prime season for next to nothing and I look forward to visiting other places with the 182k points.



Yes, they can be pooled just as any other points can but pooled points carry no home resort priority. That's the key difference between UDI & converted weeks points - what can be done with them at the home resort.  If you have no desire/need to use your home resort then it's a moot point as for use anywhere other than that home base a point is a point regardless of it's source. The sole difference is how they can be used at the home base thus limiting the value of converted weeks vs UDI in that single situation. For your type of use and assuming a decent annual fee to point value they are equal. A new buyer just needs to know that IF they plan to use the priority that the home resort offers then a UDI based ownership offers the maximum flexibility while a converted week has limitations. That's it. But it does make the UDI ownership the top value.


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## BellaWyn (Jul 9, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> But it does make the UDI ownership the top value.


Top value to WHO?  Even a good quality fixed week ownership still has significant value.  But that's a completely different discussion and not what the OP is asking.  What has not been addressed is the question about *"... club access with no deed.....?"*

Also think you're talking a little over a newbie's head when you refer to a *"trust based" * product.  You might want to clarify that for the OP.  Don't disagree with getting a UDI deed as a first-round purchase for someone unfamiliar with the Wyndham system.  Wyndham has a HUGE learning curve and understanding how to navigate with a UDI contract is definitely easier.  But disagree that converted and FW products are totally useless.  That's totally subjective depending on the week/unit that is at the core of the deed.

wilmarie53, *IMO, deeded UDI is preferable to Club Access,.* which is basically what John is saying.


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## timeos2 (Jul 9, 2010)

BellaWyn said:


> wilmarie53, *IMO, deeded UDI is preferable to Club Access,.* which is basically what John is saying.



Yes, agreed! To be completely clear if your options are a deeded ownership vs a non-deeded then pick the deed. It gives you a fall back ownership that could be a value at some point. A Club (non-deeded, trust based) membership gives you nothing but a promise of a right to use. That is not as good, IMO, as a deed based, true ownership. 

There is a pecking order of ownership types in most systems and Wyndham has it's share. The most flexibilty usually means the most desirable and that would be the UDI, deeded ownership type.  To be fair a prime fixed week ownership at some of the highly seasonal resorts could be a better value at that resort. Those are few and far between and isn't a part of this deed/non-deed question.


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## e.bram (Jul 9, 2010)

*Question from a weeks owner?*

Could you be GUARANTEED(not based on availability) weeks 25-34 with a UDI points ownership at your home resort(oceanfront) as with a fixed Prime Red Fixed Week?


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## ausman (Jul 10, 2010)

No, which is the primary reason not to convert such weeks to points. Use or rent out are better choices.

Some don't do the logical thing though, which is why there can be divergent opinions and why I'm on vacation this weekend. Hopefully I'll have a water view but perhaps not.


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## jjmanthei05 (Jul 10, 2010)

I will try to answer the original question without giving a real opinion since I have no experience with Club access, here is the differences as I understand them. 

Deeded resort (fixed week converted\UDI): Never expires, ARP at resort on the deed only. MF and Special Assessments are set by the HOA of that resort. 

Club Wyndham Access: Expires after 50 years (i believe), ARP at any resort in the Club, MF are set based on the MF of all the deeds in the resort which almost hedges your MF to large increases. Ownership transfer should be faster since no deed needs to be recorded with a county. 

If there is anything I missed or misrepresented please correct me. 

Jason


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 11, 2010)

Club Access is a vacation club and not deeded property. 

Termination of your ownership is specified in your paperwork and could be a very short time frame. HOWEVER, the debt (for your purchase of this vacation interest) you acquired when joining the club is valid until paid. Wyndham can "lock" you out of your deeded timeshare unit, but can't resell until the deed is foreclousure is completed.  A vacation club could have membership contract terminating your membership (your view would be ownership, which it is not) in terms of days (30, 60, 90 or so) since your last payment of dues (maintenance fees).

Yes, I own Wyndham points. I do not belong to Club Access as that is a newer developer product and is a full price product offering by corporate Wyndham. 

This is just my personal understanding.....


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## timeos2 (Jul 11, 2010)

jjmanthei05 said:


> I will try to answer the original question without giving a real opinion since I have no experience with Club access, here is the differences as I understand them.
> 
> Deeded resort (fixed week converted\UDI): Never expires, ARP at resort on the deed only. MF and Special Assessments are set by the HOA of that resort.
> 
> ...



The ARP with Club is not the full 13 months that a deeded owner gets as I understand it. As I am NOT a CW member I am not positive on that.


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## rrlongwell (Jul 11, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> The ARP with Club is not the full 13 months that a deeded owner gets as I understand it. As I am NOT a CW member I am not positive on that.



Moving to top of list to respond to a recent post pertaining to Club Wyndham Access.


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## mnmrsjjp (Mar 25, 2013)

Where does it say that CWA expires in 50 years?  What does this mean????


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## pacodemountainside (Mar 25, 2013)

CWA is a perpetual trust per paragraph 8.8 on page 11 of  PTVO  Trust Documents.

CWA has  full 13 month booking rights at some 70 resorts. HOWEVER, availability is limited  to prorated Trust  inventory.

At high demand  resorts  people do not  go with CWA and very limited.

Maintenance  fees  have only gone  up  about a dime over last three years so averaging does work.  Currently $4.89.


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## jebloomquist (Mar 25, 2013)

pacodemountainside said:


> CWA is a perpetual trust per paragraph 8.8 on page 11 of  PTVO  Trust Documents.
> 
> CWA has  full 13 month booking rights at some 70 resorts. HOWEVER, availability is limited  to prorated Trust  inventory.
> 
> ...



Paco,

Whenever I look at CWA auctions, the maintenance fee seems to be about $5.46/1000. Does your $4.89 number include the $0.56/1000 program fee?

Jim


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## ronparise (Mar 25, 2013)

jjmanthei05 said:


> I will try to answer the original question without giving a real opinion since I have no experience with Club access, here is the differences as I understand them.
> 
> Deeded resort (fixed week converted\UDI): Never expires, ARP at resort on the deed only. MF and Special Assessments are set by the HOA of that resort.
> 
> ...



Club Wyndham access is forever. Ownership transfer is slower, no deed, but there are transfer papers that have to be orderd from Wyndham, notarized by both buyer and seller, and returned to Wyndham. Then Wyndham takes there typical 6-8 weeks. The extra step of ordering transfer papers from Wyndham is an extra step and adds time

To sum up what others have said there are three types of points ownerships..Converted fixed weeks, udi, and Club Wyndham Access

One is not  inherently better than another. They are different, so one or the other might be better for you. I own all three and except for ARP, (thats where the differences are) you cant tell one point from another in their use


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## ronparise (Mar 25, 2013)

timeos2 said:


> The ARP with Club is not the full 13 months that a deeded owner gets as I understand it. As I am NOT a CW member I am not positive on that.



It is thirteen months. I made reservations at La Belle Maison with points from a UDI deed and points from a CWA contract on the same phone call at 8AM exactly 13 months before check in


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## ronparise (Mar 25, 2013)

jebloomquist said:


> Paco,
> 
> Whenever I look at CWA auctions, the maintenance fee seems to be about $5.46/1000. Does your $4.89 number include the $0.56/1000 program fee?
> 
> Jim



Pacos number does not include the program fee

This from my account...do the math yourself

CLUB WYNDHAM® Access	
1042000 points

annual mf........... $5,116.22	
program fee..........  562.68	
Total ....................5,678.90	
monthly payment.....473.24


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## pacodemountainside (Mar 25, 2013)

jebloomquist said:


> Paco,
> 
> Whenever I look at CWA auctions, the maintenance fee seems to be about $5.46/1000. Does your $4.89 number include the $0.56/1000 program fee?
> 
> Jim



Will simplify calculation.

My POA fee is $81.62 divided by 154K points  equals $.53 .

If free standing 154K contract  would be  $108 divided by 154K points or  $.70.

Gotta pay for that "free" RCI  membership.


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## pacodemountainside (Mar 25, 2013)

ronparise said:


> It is thirteen months. I made reservations at La Belle Maison with points from a UDI deed and points from a CWA contract on the same phone call at 8AM exactly 13 months before check in



Remember out West that is 6:00AM!


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## ronparise (Mar 25, 2013)

pacodemountainside said:


> Remember out West that is 6:00AM!



Its early for a couple of old farts like us, but you were up and on the phone trying to beat me to the punch, weren't you

By the way have you recovered from Mardi Gras yet?


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## pacodemountainside (Mar 26, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Its early for a couple of old farts like us, but you were up and on the phone trying to beat me to the punch, weren't you
> 
> By the way have you recovered from Mardi Gras yet?




I will plead the 5th!

NO! Another DOC appointment tomorrow.

Going to rent 2014 Mardi Gras  week and  book week before  at end of April.   I think web site opens at 7:00AM EDT!

Gittin olde is Hell! About at point  time to go Yule Brenner/Howie
Mandel  look!   Medicare is working on my scooter  and 6 speed Corvette is being traded for MV-1.


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## claire_ont (Mar 28, 2013)

Let me see if I got this straight.  If I buy Club access points as my source of Wyndham points, I will have ARP at many resorts, but that ARP may or may not be worthless depending on inventory assigned at the resort to club access.  i.e. book at 13 months to the sec, and hope for pixie dust.

However, at 10 months, points become points and I can book any available Wyndham property that has open inventory, not just club access inventory? i.e. if Bonnet Creek had no Club Access inventory at 13 months, at 10 months, I would still stand a chance to get a room.

I believe I can deposit Club Wyndham Access points into the credit pool, and that credit pool points can only be used for reservations starting 10 months out.  Can I still deposit Club Wyndham Access points into RCI?

Foreclosure on Club Wyndham Access is faster than regular points?  Not sure I understand this.  Not that I miss payments or are late with them, but if some glitch happens and I am late with one, I assume there is some sort of notification process and they don't just snag the points.  Plus it is right of use, not a deed.  I assume they can not just close the club and you are out of luck.  What is my risk here?

I really like the buffered maintenance fees and the concept of multiple ARPs of club access.  Twenty years from now, I probably will not be using them anymore, so do I care about a deed?  Do deeded points do more for me than non deeded points, except for a better chance for ARP inventory at a "home" resort?

Sorry for all the questions, but I am looking to buy some resale points with points starting in 2014 for a planned early Dec 2014 trip, and I want to make sure I know as much as possible what I am getting into before I buy. I would prefer to minimize the surprises.

As a Canadian, I am flexible on home resort, I just want someplace warm in the winter (i.e. no snow and some days in the 70s) with reasonable maintenance fees.  

I booked my first discovery package trip (I know) into Cyprus Palms for the end of January 2014, and am hoping to use the end of my points in Washington and Myrtle Beach in early May 2014.

Claire


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 28, 2013)

claire_ont said:


> ...As a Canadian, I am flexible on home resort, I just want someplace warm in the winter (i.e. no snow and some days in the 70s) with reasonable maintenance fees.  ...Claire



Claire,
Is warm, as a Canadian, to you being Myrtle Beach or Williamsburg in the dead of winter? Both of those areas have indoor pools. You will have a much harder time being warm in Pompano Beach - many of us STILL hold Fixed Deeded Weeks there for Snowbird season. Unless you like Palm Aire - on the other side of I-95.

And the UDI resort, Royal Vista is NOT in CWA ... and there is usually NOTHING at that resort after ARP (and RARP) strikes.


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## claire_ont (Mar 28, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> Claire,
> Is warm, as a Canadian, to you being Myrtle Beach or Williamsburg in the dead of winter? Both of those areas have indoor pools. You will have a much harder time being warm in Pompano Beach - many of us STILL hold Fixed Deeded Weeks there for Snowbird season. Unless you like Palm Aire - on the other side of I-95.
> 
> And the UDI resort, Royal Vista is NOT in CWA ... and there is usually NOTHING at that resort after ARP (and RARP) strikes.



Warm to me would have me Orlando or south of Orlando in late Jan/early Feb which is when I like to go south.  Of course, some winters any place without snow would look good.  Pompano Beach would be ideal as I already have DVC to go to Orlando.  Thank-you for your advice.  Maybe Royal Vista is one I should consider.

BTW - I know what ARP is, but what is RARP?

Claire


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 28, 2013)

claire_ont said:


> Warm to me would have me Orlando or south of Orlando in late Jan/early Feb which is when I like to go south.  Of course, some winters any place without snow would look good.  Pompano Beach would be ideal as I already have DVC to go to Orlando.  Thank-you for your advice.  Maybe Royal Vista is one I should consider.
> 
> BTW - I know what ARP is, but what is RARP?
> 
> Claire



RARP - recipicol ARP ... Gold and Platinum VIPs with Wyndham get 1 (Gold) or 2 (Platinum) based on their developer brought status to book ANYWHEREs at 11 months.

You would have to BUY a UDI deeded to Royal Vista -- 2 months ago, I got a 1,000,000 point Royal Vista deed for $1025 total. 6-7 weeks in a 1/2 bdr in Prime season. MFs are a bit higher - but the resort is nice.


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## jeffwill (Mar 28, 2013)

My biggest concern, based on 12 Yr. old info, is in the area of special assessment.  As in Pompano Beach--- if you get clobered by a hurricane like what happened to Santa Barbara 7/8 years ago, you payed big time. Could not use for 2 years but STILL had to pay MF's and special assessments.  

If you owned points instead of a deeded week, you did not have to pay SA's.

Right or wrong ?


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## ronparise (Mar 28, 2013)

jeffwill said:


> My biggest concern, based on 12 Yr. old info, is in the area of special assessment.  As in Pompano Beach--- if you get clobered by a hurricane like what happened to Santa Barbara 7/8 years ago, you payed big time. Could not use for 2 years but STILL had to pay MF's and special assessments.
> 
> If you owned points instead of a deeded week, you did not have to pay SA's.
> 
> Right or wrong ?



Most Wyndham points contracts are deeded at a specific resort. the points are just symbolic of the ownership. If there is  special assessment at your resort as an owner you will be billed. but at least as a points owner you can use your points somewhere else

CWA is different, in that its not deeded. its closer to a pure points deal. Any special assessment will go to the club  and it will spread over all the members


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## uscav8r (Mar 28, 2013)

jeffwill said:


> My biggest concern, based on 12 Yr. old info, is in the area of special assessment.  As in Pompano Beach--- if you get clobered by a hurricane like what happened to Santa Barbara 7/8 years ago, you payed big time. Could not use for 2 years but STILL had to pay MF's and special assessments.
> 
> If you owned points instead of a deeded week, you did not have to pay SA's.
> 
> Right or wrong ?



Special assessments apply to points (both CWP and CWA) as well. For CWA (i.e. Access), the SA is blended with all the other CWA properties (50+ locations) and the "hit" would be much less than if you owned all the points at that one resort.

Of course, if you owned CWP points at a totally DIFFERENT resort then you would see NO special assessment at all!

------------------------------
Edit: Of course, in addition to being a "West Coast" kinda guy, that is probably why I personally shy away from Florida and Atlantic coast shore properties!


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 28, 2013)

jeffwill said:


> ... in the area of special assessment.  As in Pompano Beach--- if you get clobered by a hurricane like what happened to Santa Barbara 7/8 years ago, you payed big time. *Could not use for 2 years *but STILL had to pay MF's and special assessments.
> 
> If you owned points instead of a deeded week, you did not have to pay SA's.
> 
> Right or wrong ?



Closer to 4 years of no usage - MFs were reduced, but special assessment was a BIG. Could not deposit into RCI because there was NO RESORT WEEK that an RCI exchanger could use. Wyndham SALES offered to convert you week to points and many did (then they got the special assessment). The 2 motels next door to the south were torn down (after 2-3 years of transitant housing, then emptied out). The 2 OCEAN FRONT Hotels across the street and square across from the next door motels, were NEVER reoccupied and torn down. All 4 of those places, were torn down after Wyndham had re-opened. Santa Barbara was gutted except for the mauve jetted tubs. And after being re-opened 4 years, the former 4 MOTELs sites are still empty --- improving the view to the ocean for the southside units of Santa Barbara.


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## bnoble (Mar 29, 2013)

CWA is averaged across a set of properties.  That means that you'll have average MF costs---never the best in the system, but never the worst.  Average.  The *right* UDI or converted fixed week will be a better deal (subject to special assessment risk).  The *wrong* UDI or converted fixed week won't be.

Another substantive difference is that you never hold the deed.  This means you don't vote in the HOA elections and that Wyndham can more easily "foreclose" a non-performing contract---no drawn out legal process meant for wholly-owned real estate, just a simple "you're out".  The former probably doesn't matter: Wyndham stacks the HOA deck via proxy anyway.  The latter can actually be a benefit.

The ARP differences probably don't matter today.  As the system grows, it might start to matter.   For example, if NYC turns out to be popular, and all of the deeds are in CWA, *all* CWA owners have access to it during ARP, and that's a large set of potential people who could be looking to reserve during the Advanced period.

I have a converted fixed week that is substantially below the CWA fee level, even after one special assessment.  So, I'm going to stand pat.  If the ARP thing becomes an issue, I will reassess.


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