# Do you own a retirement/second home?



## DaveNV (May 5, 2019)

Never one to admit being slow on the uptake, nonetheless, here I am, wishing I'd done something a long time ago.  I'm exploring options for buying a retirement home in another state, and I'm kind of lost.  Anybody out there have experience doing this sort of thing? I'm seeking advice.  (Not unlike @slip with his Molokai condo, I'm trying to plan for my future.)

I own my current home, (still paying a mortgage, but with a very good interest rate), and I have a good amount of equity.  I have virtually no other debt, a perfect credit rating, and I have a good income.  I'm a great credit risk, from all I can see.  With that said:

I'm trying to figure out how to shuffle things around so I can buy a place to retire to in another state, while I'm still working here.  Once I'm retired, the plan is to move to the new place and sell this current home.  Timing for that move is still flexible, because my spouse is a few years younger than me, and won't be retiring for another few years.  If we can arrange a job transfer within the Costco organization, moving will be sooner rather than later. Till then, I'd either rent out that second place, or I'd split time and snowbird it. 

Those are just details.  The biggest question is:  How do I do it?  Refinance for a down payment? Home Equity loan?  Two mortgages seems a bit daunting, but it "could" be managed, if I kept working till spouse is ready to retire.  Do I buy something temporary there, and use it as a vacation rental?  If the idea is to get a nice home while prices are still affordable, am I inviting trouble? Is it smarter to forget the idea, maximize equity/resale value of my home here, and just bail out when the time is right, and deal with housing prices there at that time?  So many questions - my head is spinning. LOL! 

Any suggestions or advice?  Did you already do this?  How??

Dave


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## VacationForever (May 5, 2019)

Cash is king...

We bought our current (retirement) home in early 2014 while still living in California.  We did not legally make the move until late 2016.  It was a pure retirement home in that we did not rent out the 2nd home.  We just did not want someone living in our new home.  If we had bought an older home that required remodelling before we moved in, we might have rented it out.

The downside was that we fully furnished this second / current home, which meant we had at least 2 of everything and some went to my son when he bought his place and whatever was left behind went to the buyer.  We left a lot of furniture and all of the wall art and pictures/paintings for the new owner.  We downsized from a 4600 sq foot home to a 2800 sq foot home.

Our California home had no mortgage on it because we hate debt.  When we bought this retirement home, we went on to sell another rental home in California that was also fully paid up so as we did not end up with cash poor and house rich.  We did borrow from our investments through something called LMA - Loan Management Account to pay for our current retirement home.  Once the rental was sold, we repaid the LMA loan.

After our move in late 2016, we sold our California home in middle of 2017.

Good luck.  House hunting is fun.


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## LannyPC (May 5, 2019)

No!


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## mdurette (May 5, 2019)

On the financial note, Sounds like you have two needs:
1.  100% financing for the new house.  (you mentioned home equity for downpayment and mortgage for new)
2.  Keeping payments low if you own 2 houses at the same time so you don't have to keep working.

If I got that straight....then:
1.  Either a cash-out refi or a home equity will typically max out at 80% of your current house value.    Run this calculation, do you have usable equity in your current house to pull out and pay cash for the next one?   (calculation example:   Current house $500,000 x 80% = $400,000 max mortgage liens, minus out current mortgage balance = usable equity.  If the answer is yes...
2.  If 3 years is the real time frame that you would move - then I would suggest establishing the max Home Equity Line of Credit you can get (and do it now).    The HELOC can sit there with a zero balance you will have no payments.   If you establish now, then when and if you find something, you will be a "cash" buyer, which any seller will find highly desirable.    Most lenders also have 3 year early termination charges on HELOCs...so, if you establish it now and you sell in 3 years you can avoid that.    HELOCs also have no payments until you use them and when you do use them, the payments are interest-only so they will be kept low.


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## Passepartout (May 5, 2019)

I'll send you a pm later.


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## chellej (May 5, 2019)

Dave

We have done this...about 7 years ago we decided where we wanted to retire.  We were living in Texas at the time.  We bought 40 acres in Idaho and had plans drawn up to build a log cabin.   We put a 32-foot travel trailer on the property and built a cover for it.  It is an off-grid property.   Got generator, septic and water catchment system.  Had the opportunity to move to Washington...2 hours from land and jumped at.  At this point, we were ready to build but when we crunched the numbers, we realized we could not afford to build what we wanted unless it was our primary residence.   We then realized after several winters the work involved with snow removal that this was not going to be a possibility for full time living once we retired.   At this point, we stepped back, decided on a smaller version of our cabin and purchased a 7-acre property with a smaller house for our fulltime residence in Washington.   It took a while to bring DH around to the fact that the cabin did not make sense for fulltime residence but he is now happy with our situation.  We are 4 years into the cabin....the cash we had, in the beginning, was supposed to be enough to build the cabin but the contractors only got as far as closing it in before the money was gone. So we have been finishing as we go and the stuff we can't do ourselves was done.

Our initial funding was from the sale of our house in Texas.  The cabin is free and clear and land paid off and we are paying as we go to finish it.  We rented the first 18 months we were here and then purchased our current home.  We do have a mortgage on our current home but it is very reasonable and we can afford it into retirement.


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## Luanne (May 5, 2019)

No, we've only owned one home at a time.  Mostly for financial reasons.


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## TravelTime (May 5, 2019)

We own three homes, an office and a huge lot right now (23 acres), all in Northern California. We are in the process of selling 1 home and 1 office, and buying a new second home. We do it through cash mainly, but to buy the new second home, we have been approved for a mortgage as a bridge loan.

Basically, to own a second home at the same time as your primary home, it is either cash or you need to qualify on your income for owning 2 homes. It is quite simple. Not a big deal.

I would question why someone would want to buy a retirement home well before retirement. In spite of us owning multiple homes, I think it makes the most sense for most people to own one home at a time.

Plus it seems home prices are leveling out, and possibly decreasing a bit. Regardless, the extra costs of owning a second home are not worth doing many years in advance of retirement. I think most retirees would be best to exchange their home when they are near retirement, not years in advance.


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## rapmarks (May 5, 2019)

In 1988 we built a small vacation home about 150 miles away in a resort.  We were teachers and spent the summer there and lots of weekends.   We refinanced our main home to do this.  we retired in 1999,spent the summer in vacation home and used timeshare and rentals to visit all over the country for a retirement home for the next three plus years.
 We finally decided on the area of Florida we wanted, after ruling out Arizona, the Carolinas,Arkansas, and some other areas.  We sold our main home.  Made the big mistake of filling a storage unit with our things, wasted eight thousand dollars before we got rid of it all.
When we found our house, it was furnished, and the outside work was taken care of by association. Our second home is on wooded lot with no mowing or raking leaves.
We have done well for thirty years.  We now fly back and forth, keep a car in each garage.
It is starting to get hard, I put up storm shutters yesterday in preparation for going north. But we have done this for thirty years


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## VacationForever (May 5, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> We own three homes, an office and a huge lot right now (23 acres), all in Northern California. We are in the process of selling 1 home and 1 office, and buying a new second home. We do it through cash mainly, but to buy the new second home, we have been approved for a mortgage as a bridge loan.
> 
> Basically, to own a second home at the same time as your primary home, it is either cash or you need to qualify on your income for owning 2 homes.


Where is your new second home going to be?


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## slip (May 5, 2019)

My Dad was 45 when he bought his retirement/second home so I consider myself late also. I do wish I had done it sooner and I think you’ll fall into that too but I’m not one to look back and regret. I usually always lol forward. 

Looking back after my mother pasted away, we knew we weren’t tied to our current location anymore and we decided it’s now or never. We had a chunk of cash and an open, unused HELOC so we used some of each so I wouldn’t be cash poor. The renting has worked out great but it doesn’t cover everything. We bought very reasonably and can make the payments easily. Our financial situation sounds similar to yours. 

Everyone’s situation is different. I’m the young one in our marriage so that is a big difference. So, your not late, your ready to make some decisions and put your plan in place. Once your sold on your location, I believe the rest will fall into place. That’s when your fun will start.


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## slip (May 5, 2019)

Also, since we were renting it out, we had to have 30% down. It was only 20% if we wouldn’t rent it.


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## bluehende (May 5, 2019)

The question I will ask is why the hurry?  If you plan to rent for a short time seems risky to me.  There is no guarantee the property would not be worth less when you want it.  Resort areas are extremely price sensitive depending on the economy.  I like to play it safe so would rather use the time to find the place I want to retire to.  I would worry that two mortage's leverages way too much.  Of course not knowing details I have no way to quantify how you could handle that risk.  The nightmare scenario is two houses in an area that real estate is dropping.  My opinion is somewhat based on how long the economy has been expanding.  I believe a reversion to the mean is in the offing.

We held a summer place for 30 yrs.  At the end I would have made a lot more by placing that cash in an index fund.  Of course investment was only part of the reason to own


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## TravelTime (May 5, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> Where is your new second home going to be?



It is on the San Francisco Bay in Point Richmond. It is an up and coming area. In January, the city just launched a ferry from Point Richmond to San Francisco. The developer raised prices by $50K since we signed, which was about a month ago. We are buying a 2100+ sf first floor flat (bottom unit of 2 stories) about 50 feet from the Bay. We have a view from our bed of San Francisco and the Bay Bridge. No one will ever be between us and the Bay. I can’t believe we found this. All the units with our floor plan on the first floor are sold now. A month ago, 19 of 60 units were sold. Now 26 of 60 are sold. Only about 40 or so units have been released for sale. The locals call it “the real estate opportunity of the century.” Very few people are aware of Point Richmond. People in the Bay Area associate Richmond with crime. All my friends told me to not buy here. However, Richmond is currently experiencing a renaissance. Point Richmond is really beautiful and entirely on the bay.


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## Luanne (May 5, 2019)

We did own two homes for a short period of time.  We bought our retirement home in New Mexico while both dh and I were still working, and living, in California.  It wasn't what we'd planned to do, we had planned to sell our home in California, move to New Mexico, and rent for awhile.  But, we found a house we loved, and after consulting with our financial guys decided go go ahead.  We knew we'd be making payments on two houses for what we hoped would be a short period of time (turns out it was only for a few months).  But, this long winded tale was to say the way we did it was to take out a Home Equity Loan (or maybe it was a line of credit) to pay for the down payment on the new house.


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## Sugarcubesea (May 5, 2019)

DaveNW said:


> Never one to admit being slow on the uptake, nonetheless, here I am, wishing I'd done something a long time ago.  I'm exploring options for buying a retirement home in another state, and I'm kind of lost.  Anybody out there have experience doing this sort of thing? I'm seeking advice.  (Not unlike @slip with his Molokai condo, I'm trying to plan for my future.)
> 
> I own my current home, (still paying a mortgage, but with a very good interest rate), and I have a good amount of equity.  I have virtually no other debt, a perfect credit rating, and I have a good income.  I'm a great credit risk, from all I can see.  With that said:
> 
> ...



I will be purchasing a retirement home more than likely in FL but there is a small chance it could be in AZ.  Headed back to Naples in December and will look at my top 5 condo developments. My goal is to purchase 2 years prior to retirement so that I have funds to purchase furniture and do any updates I want in my new place.


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## bogey21 (May 5, 2019)

A number of years ago I bought a condo in Hot Springs Village, AR to use during racing season with the idea I might retire there.  Paid something like $32,000 fully furnished and rented it out on a weekly basis (or let friends use it) the rest of the year.  I did so well renting it I bought a second one exclusively for the rental income.  Rental income exceeded expenses on both.  Later I pretty much decided to stop traveling and to retire in a CCRC.  I sold both condos for about 20% more than I paid for them and moved on.  Unlike TS Weeks RE tends to increase in value...

George


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## lynne (May 5, 2019)

We purchased our Hawaii retirement home in 2001.  It was a plantation style home on 5 acres surrounded by Norfolk pine with over 200 macadamia nut trees.  We refinanced our current home which was almost paid off and had enough cash to purchase the Hawaii home outright.  We knew that our opportunity window was small as housing prices in Hawaii were beginning to rise and we wanted to secure our plans to move here permanently.  We hired a property manager and had the house rented to cover our costs (property tax, GET, maintenance...) and keep the home occupied.  In 2006, we sold our home in NY, loaded up our 40' container, shipped one of our cars, purchased a small truck here in Hawaii and made the move.  

Our timing was almost perfect as we were able to sell our NY home for an unimaginable profit during the housing boom and were able to move here debt free.


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## am1 (May 5, 2019)

We purchased a beach house 15 minutes from our house last year.  In a gated development with a nice pool and few minute walk to the beach.  

More work but we I visit a few times a week.  People borrow it or we just go for the day. Try to stay over one night a week.  

More likely a son will live there full time then us.


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## OldGuy (May 5, 2019)

Yes, 3 times.

gonna retire someday

nah


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## Snazzylass (May 5, 2019)

But where? Where would you like to retire? Make sure you have a good reason to buy now. Being a landlord? I grew up in the business and have no interest. I'm without a mortgage in AZ but large monthly HOA. It works for now. I agree with another poster that home prices may have actually softened in most areas after the rising mortgage rates from 11/16 to 12/18. 

You'll likely want to look at a HELOC since you have such a great rate on your first, but most folks get a bit sticker shock when they learn what rates are for a second. You'll need to look at the math and ask yourself if it feels right.

On the other hand, you always get your best mortgage rate on your primary. It might make more sense for you to retire, sell where you are, transfer with Costco and then purchase your new home.

In addition to staying in AZ (and by the way, Phoenix and Flag are expensive but other areas much more reasonable), I own a little lake lot in Indiana. I'd like to save enough before retirement to build a little house there. Cash. It might be doable!


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## DaveNV (May 5, 2019)

I appreciate all the great comments, folks.  Tuggers are the best!  You've given me a lot to think about, and some very smart ideas about analyzing exactly what I want to do. Thanks! 

@Snazzylass: We're looking strongly at Southern Nevada.  Still deciding where, and not ruling out any particular area.  We're spending a few days down there at the end of this month to "walk the streets" a bit, and get a feeling for whether it would be a good fit.  The Costco transfer is actually a huge part of the possible plans, and isn't an easily accomplished thing.  I've been approaching things from the idea that a transfer wasn't likely to happen, but if one can be arranged, it may change everything, and we can move sooner.  All else being equal, we'll probably wait to buy something until we know if/what will happen for my spouse's job.  Then we'll sell here, move there, and deal with the real estate market at that time.  This is a very loose plan.  Stay tuned.  

Dave


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## mav (May 6, 2019)

Yes, it's called timeshares and hotels .   We spend about 6 to 8 months a year running around the world


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## WinniWoman (May 6, 2019)

My brother bought a second home but is wealthy. I assume he paid cash.

One thing he did say is that having two homes right now is a pain, as instead of having one home to maintain, now he has two. Even though he bought a gorgeous home- no matter what- it needed to be repainted, needed landscaping, needed this and that. Needed furniture. He hires people for everything because he has the money. It is in a gated community but the HOA fees only cover the community- not the landscaping or exterior of the home. Certainly not the interior.

He said little things are annoying- like he does not have a second set of yard tools at the new home, for example, and my sisterinlaw likes to do some gardening. They do not want the hassle of buying two of everything when it comes to things like that. And kitchen tools and dishes and pots and utensils. Also- stuff like their paperwork and files and so forth are back in NY and staying down in Florida for 3 months- they find they wish they had some of it with them. They have some clothes down there, but have to take more down and back. In their case- they drive down from NY so they will have use of a car for the 3 months, but other times they fly. Their main home is in NY and the second home is in Florida. (where else?). Oh- and then they have to get a neighbor to check in on their home when they are in Florida for the winter. When they do sell the NY home they are not taking any furniture. When that time comes he is thinking of just renting something in NY when they visit.  Lots of these things to think about.

I asked my brother what we should do, as when we sell our home I really hate the idea of renting something (and storing our stuff) until we can buy another place. He told me to float money for a down payment and take out a mortgage (though we both will not have jobs so I don't see how that would work anyway). But our FA advised against it (and I know our attorney would, too).

Although we are in decent shape for retirement supposedly on the financial front, and our current home was paid off long ago,  the FA said we should not take out a mortgage with it's corresponding closing costs and so on. And then there is the carrying costs of owning two places until our main home sells. That we should wait until our home sells to buy something else. We don't know what our final sale price on our home would be and we do not know how long it would take to sell. Not the answer I wanted to hear, but I figured as much.

Heck- we do not even know where we will end up and this scares me also. The FA said renting for one or two years is ok for us. But what if we rent somewhere we think (or know) we want to live and nothing comes up that we want or can afford to buy?  What if we decide we don't like the area or the state? Now we have to pick up again and move somewhere else and move our stored stuff again? This not the type of life we want. We are homebodies, not gypsies.

Dave- at least you have moved a lot so you are used to it. We have not. I actually can understand why most people do not move in retirement. What a hassle! Not to mention leaving family and friends and the community they know.

One thing I do know is I would not want to be a landlord. And I do not want anyone else using my home- 1st or 2nd. I also would not depend on rentals to make things work financially.

My husband has a friend who was also pretty well off (3 pensions between him and his wife) and they bought their Florida home before they sold their NY home. This enabled them to take their time and move their stuff back and forth. Their home here took a long time to sell. It was a decent plain vanilla bi level home in a good school district and it did finally sell, but he was surprised how long it took and then the closing in NY here, unlike in Fla., took long also.

We do know another couple that is thinking of buying a full ownership at a timeshare resort in the Northeast and using that for now and when they retire and renting it also, and eventually getting something for winters in Florida and go back and forth as snowbirds.

Seems we know a lot of people who have second homes and also who were able to buy their retirement home before selling their current home. I wish we could too. We feel kind of left out....

I would love to buy a summer fractional ownership at Riverwalk in NH- May through October (not sure they even have any of these left. Most are 9 weeks with off seasons thrown in. No thanks) and just keep our home to avoid this whole thing. But- I know we can't financially. Also- could be very risky buying full or fractional ownership in a timeshare resort. Sometimes I wish I could just throw caution to the wind....

It all comes down to money and how much risk you feel comfortable with. The numbers have to add up so you won't put your retirement into jeopardy. Just be careful. I am sure everything will work out in the end no matter what you decide.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (May 6, 2019)

Don't forget healthcare at your retirement home area. . . .


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## wackymother (May 6, 2019)

Can you pay off the mortgage on your primary residence? I would do that first. 

To me, there are always deals to be found in real estate, especially in vacation areas and retirement areas. Somebody is always eager to sell that second home that they bought years ago. It's easy to buy (especially if you're paying in cash) and hard to sell. 

Take a really good hard look at the place where you're thinking about getting the second home. Do you need to buy? How are rental prices? How are resale prices? Are they going up? 

We're thinking long-term about selling our house and buying a condo in our town. But there's a glut of new condos here, so while purchase prices are pretty good right now, so are rental prices. Now we're realizing that at this moment--not sure how this will play out in a few years--we can rent for only slightly more than we would pay for maintenance and taxes if we owned a unit. So at the moment, renting is really a better deal, since there's no opportunity cost. We could keep our savings in investments.


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## OldGuy (May 6, 2019)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Don't forget healthcare at your retirement home area. . . .



Good point.

The one time I needed healthcare in the last 70 years (knock on simulated woodgrain), in our first retirement home area, it was three months before I could see a GP for a referral, and then however long it would take to get the surgeon.

So, I went to our second retirement home area, which is also our third retirement home area, saw the surgeon on Monday, had surgery on Tuesday, and had follow-up on Thursday.


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## WinniWoman (May 6, 2019)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Don't forget healthcare at your retirement home area. . . .




Yes- excellent point. One thing in the Northeast is we have some good hospitals- in NYC and also in Boston.

Something else I think of a lot since we, too, are kind of unsure where to go =

Usually- not always -People on the West coast tend to retire on the West Coast- just in a more retiree friendly state. Going from California or Washington to somewhere like Colorado or Nevada or Arizona is a draw because more than likely those people have vacationed there and are familiar with those states due to the close proximity.

People on the East coast tend to retire on the East coast to more retiree friendly states- hence- Florida, Tennessee and the Carolinas. Why? Because most have vacationed in the southern states due to the close proximity and are familiar with those.

Sure- there are people on the East coast that retire to Arizona and people on the West coast that retire to Florida. But I bet more than not stay on the coast where they had their family home.

Not sure about the Mid Westerners. Maybe they go either way! LOL! Or straight down south. Ha! Ha!

I assume people who have always lived in states like Florida or Arizona just stay there or become snowbirds.

We are a bit odd I guess in that we always vacationed in the Northeast- New England- for the most part (though we have been out West and down south). So we tend to want to retire there. We are familiar with it. We could still drive back to NY. We could see our only child occasionally. Only thing is the Northeast is expensive and limited 55+ communities with one floor updated condos with garages or basements and where the exterior of the home is taken care of by the HOA. Or, if we find one that exists (and not necessarily any openings)- no amenities.

We are not the only ones who feel this way. Lot's of people I talk to at Smuggs do also. But many still want to be snowbirds. That we could not afford to do or even want to do as I don't like leaving my home in the winter for a long period of time. (again- I know I am strange).

Our FA advises against going into a CCRC at this stage as that could have been a option for us in New England, so that is out. He says staying in our home or getting a town home/condo paid for cash is the best option for us financially and I know he is right from that perspective. Then again, he is not the one with no family and friends nearby and not the one having to take care of our home wherever it ends up being. I thought he would be for just renting something indefinitely, but he is not even keen on that. Neither is hubby. he feels you are at the mercy of landlords when something goes wrong, like the furnace dying. 

So a lot of thinking to do. And compromising.


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## DaveNV (May 6, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Not sure about the Mid Westerners. Maybe they go either way! LOL! Or straight down south. Ha! Ha!



I know a certain Wisconsin Tug family that are retiring to Molokai. 

For me, as a West Coast kid who has lived all over, due to the military, staying west of the Rockies is just easier.  All the family and friends we're closest to live in Washington, California, or Arizona.  Seeing them without breaking the bank on a vacation is important to us. 

And then there's the whole "The sun rises over land and sets in the water" thing. It's "normal" for West Coasters to just think that's how it works.  In Florida, unless you're living on the Gulf Coast side of the state, the opposite is true.  I lived in Virginia for six years, and I never got used to the idea that the sun rose from the water and set over the land.  It was always backwards to me.    (OCD much?  LOL!)

Dave


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## OldGuy (May 6, 2019)

DaveNW said:


> I know a certain Wisconsin Tug family that are retiring to Molokai.



took the wrong right somewhere


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## WinniWoman (May 6, 2019)

DaveNW said:


> I know a certain Wisconsin Tug family that are retiring to Molokai.
> 
> For me, as a West Coast kid who has lived all over, due to the military, staying west of the Rockies is just easier.  All the family and friends we're closest to live in Washington, California, or Arizona.  Seeing them without breaking the bank on a vacation is important to us.
> 
> ...




Right! Exactly! That is how I feel about the east coast- especially the Northeast coast. 

Funny about the sun. I just love it in the summer when we are in Vermont in our timeshare. The sun comes up earlier there than in NY (the more "east" you go) and being a real morning person I am in heaven.


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## Passepartout (May 6, 2019)

Mary Ann, East Coast folks (generally) retire to Florida, Westerners head to Arizona or S.Cal, And since you asked, Midwesterners go to S. Texas. My FIL joined a group of fellow Minnesotans and Wisconsinites at the southern tip of Texas that it seemed like an extension of 'home' with VFW clubs and fish fries weekly. If 'Dad' wanted to play golf, he just put his clubs out by the mailbox and someone would just stop and pick him up. Alternately, he would drive around the area and pick up other old duffers who'd set their clubs out.

Jim


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## bizaro86 (May 6, 2019)

DaveNW said:


> And then there's the whole "The sun rises over land and sets in the water" thing. It's "normal" for West Coasters to just think that's how it works.  In Florida, unless you're living on the Gulf Coast side of the state, the opposite is true.  I lived in Virginia for six years, and I never got used to the idea that the sun rose from the water and set over the land.  It was always backwards to me.    (OCD much?  LOL!)
> 
> Dave



Its funny how things like that really matter. I can see the sunset over the Canadian Rockies from where I live, and very much miss seeing the mountains when I travel elsewhere. I've only lived somewhere else for college, and found it a strange adjustment not seeing them. It had never occurred to me that I would miss the mountains until I moved somewhere that didn't have them for awhile.


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## Luanne (May 6, 2019)

I was born and raised in California, so I'm definitely a west coast kid.  Dh was born in Ohio, raised in Massachusetts, and spent a good part of his life on the east coast before moving to California.  We retired to New Mexico.


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## Passepartout (May 6, 2019)

bizaro86 said:


> Its funny how things like that really matter. I can see the sunset over the Canadian Rockies from where I live, and very much miss seeing the mountains when I travel elsewhere. I've only lived somewhere else for college, and found it a strange adjustment not seeing them. It had never occurred to me that I would miss the mountains until I moved somewhere that didn't have them for awhile.


Out here we were told that the name 'Idaho' was an Anglicization of 'Ee-Dah-How', said to come from Shoshone Indian (the original inhabitants) language meaning 'the place where the Sun rises over the Mountains'. It made some sense as the Continental divide is basically the boundary between Idaho and Montana. It makes perfect sense that the Sun rises over the Eastern Rockies and sets to the West. I get all messed up in flat lands or where the Sum comes out of water! BTW, Native people say the origin of the name didn't come from them, so I really don't know.

Jim


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## klpca (May 6, 2019)

wackymother said:


> Can you pay off the mortgage on your primary residence? I would do that first.
> 
> To me, there are always deals to be found in real estate, especially in vacation areas and retirement areas. Somebody is always eager to sell that second home that they bought years ago. It's easy to buy (especially if you're paying in cash) and hard to sell.
> 
> ...


My husband and I were just talking about this yesterday. At some point our house will need to be sold. It's starting to show it's age and our maintenance costs have started to increase. New furnace, water heater, AC, tree removal, roof repairs - it goes on and on - plus we have a large yard and water is really getting expensive. We started talking about just renting - sure there would be rent, but since we still have a mortgage (and are unwilling to pull $$ out of investments to pay it off especially because the interest rate is 3%) our mortgage plus maintenance and repairs is most likely a bit more than renting. It would eliminate the costs of large unexpected expenses in retirement. We probably won't do this but it is interesting to think about.


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## VacationForever (May 6, 2019)

klpca said:


> My husband and I were just talking about this yesterday. At some point our house will need to be sold. It's starting to show it's age and our maintenance costs have started to increase. New furnace, water heater, AC, tree removal, roof repairs - it goes on and on - plus we have a large yard and water is really getting expensive. We started talking about just renting - sure there would be rent, but since we still have a mortgage (and are unwilling to pull $$ out of investments to pay it off especially because the interest rate is 3%) our mortgage plus maintenance and repairs is most likely a bit more than renting. It would eliminate the costs of large unexpected expenses in retirement. We probably won't do this but it is interesting to think about.


We bought a new single level 2800+ sq ft penthouse condo with breathtaking views, built in 2008 but never lived in until we bought in 2014, to eliminate most maintenance issues.  No more yard work is the biggest deal.  We are behind double security gates which means that we can lock up and go away on vacation without worrying about break-ins. We develop a close relationship with other owners in the building.  We pay high HOA fees but it is worth it. We get 3 full days of janitorial service per week and the building is kept in pristine condition. The landscape is well kept and beautiful. We don't worry about the roof and other common areas.  We could not have picked a better place and home to retire.


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## klpca (May 6, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> We bought a new single level 2800+ sq ft penthouse condo with breathtaking views, built in 2008 but never lived in until we bought in 2014, to eliminate most maintenance issues.  No more yard work is the biggest deal.  We are behind double security gates which means that we can lock up and go away on vacation without worry about break-ins. We develop a close relationship with other owners in the building.  We pay high HOA fees but it is worth it. We get 3 full days of janitorial service per week and the building is kept in pristine condition. The landscape is well kept and beautiful. We don't worry about the roof and other common areas.  We could not have picked a better place and home to retire.


A condo is definitely plan B.


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## vacationhopeful (May 6, 2019)

I am in the "downsizing" mode. Been thinking and planning for several years now.

Sold the 5 bdr on 3.4+ acres last month after 2.5+ years and 4 realtors. Been roosting for over 2 years now in a former rental townhome and am in process of listing to sell  it.

And deciding on the interior paint colors of the next townhouse (about 1/2 mile from my current townhome). Painting will start on Wednesday in 2 days.

Don't ask me where anything is. And I HOPE my 1929 era warehouse does not burn down ... my oriental rugs, an antique bedroom set, etc are waiting for my upcoming move later THIS month.

#1 ... I have a post office box, a warehouse, a pickup truck and a fulltime construction guy.

#2 ... My Texas sister in coming late today for 5 day visit. 

#3 ... Sis and I will be interviewing realtors to list for sale where I have been currently living for 2+ years now.

#4 ... Have to pick interior wall colors for my new residence ASAP. Painter is waiting. 

#5 ... Have to FIND my wool oriental rugs and figure out their NEW room placement in new townhouse. 

#6 ... Have to buy MORE red wine.


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## Passepartout (May 6, 2019)

Scheduling advice:

First- #6
Next: Pick up Sis.
Revisit #6

No Worries.
Next week will be soon enough for the rest.  
Jim


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## pittle (May 6, 2019)

We bought a 3-bedroom vacation condo at the Lake of the Ozarks in 1994.  We did rent it out some for the first 7 years and I decided to retire early -at the end of 2001 - hubs already was retired.  So, we sold our home in Topeka and move to the Lake full-time.  We lived there for 5 years and had the opportunity to sell it, so we did.  We moved to AZ and rented a lovely home for 15 months and decided that we did like living here and bought a house in 2008 that was a foreclosure that was only 18 months old.  We love it. Our younger son an his wife already lived out here and the older son and family liked it so well, that they moved out here and live 3 blocks from us. We love living here and especially in a single story home! We up-sized with this house, but love the space.  

We do not miss the Kansas and Missouri winters!  It is hot in AZ in the summer, but we have A/C and a self-cleaning pool..

We did have 2 mortgages from 1994-2001 and had done a refi with cash out to make a large down payment on our condo. The kids were out of college, so we did not have that to pay for, so we were able to manage it. Once we sold the Topeka house, we rolled the proceeds into the condo.  When we sold the condo, we just put the money in a Savings Investment account for when we were ready to purchase a home again.  We got a great deal on our house, but installed the pool, tiled the floors and landscaped, so decided to take out a mortgage for part of the new house and keep some of our after-tax money available in savings for just in case.


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## riverdees05 (May 6, 2019)

Remember that the mortgage is only one part, one can escrow taxes and insurance, but in addition, there are utilities - gas and or electric, internet and maybe cable and phone.  Another item to consider is maintenance, HOA Fees, mowing, snow removal, etc.  These cost can add up in a hurry.  I would recommend doing a good cost estimate of income potential, expenses and taxes, before making the move.  I have had a second home for two years and the details are the key to a good decision.


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## SmithOp (May 6, 2019)

klpca said:


> A condo is definitely plan B.



We are thinking condo for our final home before the dirt nap.

We used to own 2 homes but sold them both when I took early retirement, used the equity to bridge income until SS instead of taking out of 401k.  

We like renting, found a nice home in a small gated enclave, 25 homes.  

We recommend renting before buying to learn about the area you intend to live in rather than buying first.  It takes time to know where all the amenities you require are located.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## rapmarks (May 6, 2019)

riverdees05 said:


> Remember that the mortgage is only one part, one can escrow taxes and insurance, but in addition, there are utilities - gas and or electric, internet and maybe cable and phone.  Another item to consider is maintenance, HOA Fees, mowing, snow removal, etc.  These cost can add up in a hurry.  I would recommend doing a good cost estimate of income potential, expenses and taxes, before making the move.  I have had a second home for two years and the details are the key to a good decision.


Yes, all true.  In our case the savings on no state income tax pay for the second home expenses.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (May 6, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> We bought a new single level 2800+ sq ft penthouse condo with breathtaking views, built in 2008 but never lived in until we bought in 2014, to eliminate most maintenance issues.  No more yard work is the biggest deal.  We are behind double security gates which means that we can lock up and go away on vacation without worrying about break-ins. We develop a close relationship with other owners in the building.  We pay high HOA fees but it is worth it. We get 3 full days of janitorial service per week and the building is kept in pristine condition. The landscape is well kept and beautiful. We don't worry about the roof and other common areas.  We could not have picked a better place and home to retire.



But no place for roses . . .


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## VacationForever (May 6, 2019)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> But no place for roses . . .


Ah, but lots of flowers around us, just not maintained by us!


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## Glynda (May 6, 2019)

We bought our second home 11 years before hubby retired. Since we had known since 1985 that we wanted to retire in Charleston, it seemed that prices in the Historic District would only get higher over the years. We bought a 1170 sq ft circa 1875 kitchen house. We started out with a mortgage, spent three years remodeling it from top to bottom, used it on weekends, vacations, and for me when hubby was traveling for work. We then sold our 5,000 sq ft. house and bought a 3,600 sq ft house in NC, where hubby worked and paid off our CHS home. Eight years later, with retirement almost upon us, and knowing that we would be moving my mother out of her FL home and bringing her to live with us in Charleston, we bought a 3,000 sq ft house, also in the Historic District, with cash, and began some remodeling of it. Two years later, we sold our NC home and moved to Charleston permanently. We began renting the kitchen house out. We've had a lot of people wanting to buy it but just can't bring ourselves to part with it. When my mother is no longer with us, I see selling our current home, ridding ourselves of much we have and moving back into the little house. It is pretty much a lock and leave house with fewer expenses and very little landscaping to maintain. We would miss our current location closer to restaurants and our great neighbors though. Still, we hope to travel for months at a time, perhaps spend the hot months of the year in New England and the cooler months in our little house. Time will tell.


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## Passepartout (May 6, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> Ah, but lots of flowers around us, just not maintained by us!


Our second home condo is a good bit like yours except on a bit more modest scale. We don't have a penthouse and it is smaller, but we like the security, and the great walkable area with restaurants, clubs, theaters, a beautiful river. Yes, and lots of flowers.

It was built in 2008, and foreclosed on the original buyer. we bought it for cash as a short sale. There were some maintenance issues, but that was just cosmetic. Paint, carpet, and some plumbing fixtures to upgrade from 'builder grade' is to be expected.

DW bought this place as an investment in (iirc) 2015. It has doubled in value since then. Mission accomplished. I don't know that we will ever use it as a sole retirement residence, as it's just 1 BR, 1 BA and 1100 sq ft. but we enjoy it and as an investment it's been a dandy.

Jim


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## moonstone (May 6, 2019)

We bought a condo in St Augustine Beach Florida (almost walking distance from our timeshare) in 2010 when the Canadian dollar was at par with the US dollar. We love the area (been vacationing there since '76) and thought that's where we'd want to spend our winters after we retired. We were both still working and DH was set to retire in Dec.2012 with me following 3 yrs later. Being Canadian we could not get a mortgage with a US bank so we put a mortgage back on our house (we had paid off the original in '99) and put the money into a US bank account and got a great deal on a condo since we were paying cash. It is a 2 bedroom/2 bathroom facing south, less than 2 blocks from the beach. There are lots of shops and restaurants within walking distance. We decided it would make the best financial sense to rent out the condo full time (not vacation rentals) to cover all our expenses until we retired or could pay off the mortgage. Since we were both working we figured we could only spend 3-4 weeks there each year anyways, and we had lots of timeshare time to cover that. We found a great property manager and she found us wonderful tenants within 20 minutes of the ad being posted! The rent we get (in US dollars) covers our Canadian mortgage payments, the HOA fees, property taxes and insurance, and thanks to our lower Canadian dollar we have a bit of profit left over each month. The value of the condo has increased by about $80,000 in the nearly 9 years we have owned it so we think we made a good deal even if we end up never actually using it.

Shortly after DH retired I screwed up my knee and was off work waiting for, then having, surgery so I lined up a months worth of timeshare stays in St Augustine & Daytona in March and early April. The first week or so we were down there the temps were quite cool and DH decided the area wasn't going to be warm enough in Jan., Feb., and March. He likes to be in a t-shirt, shorts & sandals all day, every day.  I ended up not going back to work after my surgery (long story) so after some research we decided to visit Belize and found we could rent a 1 bedroom furnished apartment by the water in Corozal for $550.US / month (utilities incl.). We just finished our 4th winter there and we left a deposit on the apartment for next winter. Our eventual (after elderly parents have passed) plan is to pay off the mortgage on the condo and not renew the lease for our tenants so we can spend 6-8 weeks in St Augustine in the fall, then return home to spend Christmas with our kids & grandkids before heading down to Belize for 3 months then back home for a week or so. Then we'll head back to St Augustine for the month of April. We cant afford to carry the mortgage on the condo for a year when we are only going to use it for 5-6 months.

If we eventually happen to come into a lot of money (lottery or inheritance) then we have decided to sell the St Augustine condo and buy one much further south where it stays warmer in the winter and spend all 5-6 months in Florida. That will make it easier (and cheaper) for some of the family to come and visit us over the winter! Once this mortgage is paid off we don't ever want another one!


~Diane


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## DaveNV (May 6, 2019)

@moonstone:  Diane, that ^^^ is a fantastic situation!  Wishing you great luck going forward. 

Dave


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## TravelTime (May 6, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> We bought a new single level 2800+ sq ft penthouse condo with breathtaking views, built in 2008 but never lived in until we bought in 2014, to eliminate most maintenance issues.  No more yard work is the biggest deal.  We are behind double security gates which means that we can lock up and go away on vacation without worrying about break-ins. We develop a close relationship with other owners in the building.  We pay high HOA fees but it is worth it. We get 3 full days of janitorial service per week and the building is kept in pristine condition. The landscape is well kept and beautiful. We don't worry about the roof and other common areas.  We could not have picked a better place and home to retire.



Just curious, what is considered high maintenance fees?


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## TravelTime (May 6, 2019)

I have no idea where we will retire. But we are buying and selling and adjusting along the way.


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## VacationForever (May 6, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Just curious, what is considered high maintenance fees?


We pay $794 per month and it covers water and garbage.  We have 3 HOAs, one is the "Master" for the entire resort community, one for the development that we are located where you need to get through a gate and there are other homes in the community and the third one is for the condo building itself.  The condo building is the expensive one.  Our condo building HOA is expected to go up some next year.

We don't have a gym nor a pool.  We have to join a private sports and social club in the resort community for that.

Everything else we are on our own, i.e. utilities (electricity - no gas in the building) and internet.  We have 2 water heat pump compressor units in our home for HVAC and that thing is supposed to last a long time, and we are responsible for that.  Because there is no gas to the homes and we are on the top floor our electricity bill tends to run high throughout the year.


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## TravelTime (May 6, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> We pay $794 per month and it covers water and garbage.  We have 3 HOAs, one is the "Master" for the entire resort community, one for the development that we are located where you need to get through a gate and there are other homes in the community and the third one is for the condo building itself.  The condo building is the expensive one.  Our condo building HOA is expected to go up some next year.
> 
> We don't have a gym nor a pool.  We have to join a private sports and social club in the resort community for that.
> 
> Everything else we are on our own, i.e. utilities (electricity - no gas in the building) and internet.  We have 2 water heat pump compressor units in our home for HVAC and that thing is supposed to last a long time, and we are responsible for that.  Because there is no gas to the homes and we are on the top floor our electricity bill tends to run high throughout the year.



Just wondering because the MF on our brand new condo is $500. There is no pool and only 60 units. I thought $500 a month was high for brand new construction. I imagine we will be in the $700-$800 range in a few years.


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## VacationForever (May 6, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Just wondering because the MF on our brand new condo is $500. There is no pool and only 60 units. I thought $500 a month was high for brand new construction. I imagine we will be in the $700-$800 range in a few years.


We have no complaints for what we pay in HOA.  We have no pool and gym as I have stated above.  But the incredible beauty that we are surrounded with and that moment hits us each time we drive into the resort community, we say to overselves that every dime of the HOA that we pay is worth it.  Our condo building is also incredibly well maintained.  If you are in the area, I would love to show you around and maybe you will also fall in love with this area like many of us.


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## Sandy VDH (May 6, 2019)

I have a while to go for retirement.  I don't know where I might end up.  My family keeps asking me if I am moving back to Canada anytime soon.  Since I am divorced and have not family at all in the state that I live in, nor any near by.  

I figured the TX house is the retirement house, as it is near a lake (I live about 12 houses up the street, buy my mailbox has a lake view), easy enough driving to the gulf, and I live in a community that is gated, and where the front yards of the house are maintained as part of our HOA.  The guy who cuts the time bit of back yard I have charge me $10 bucks when he comes.  

I figure my timeshares are my second home.  I also realized I should have never sold by house in downtown toronto, as I don't want to pay that price point to move back.  So I will just have to live at my friends house in the summer, and they can live at my house in the winter.  I think I might make that work.


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## DaveNV (May 6, 2019)

Sandy VDH said:


> So I will just have to live at my friends house in the summer, and they can live at my house in the winter.  I think I might make that work.



Interesting idea.  My brother lives in San Diego, and has a great guest room.  Whenever he visits up here, he stays with me in my guest room.  I think he and I need to have a little chat.  

Dave


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## moonstone (May 6, 2019)

Sandy VDH said:


> I figure my timeshares are my second home. I also realized I should have never sold by house in downtown toronto, as I don't want to pay that price point to move back. So I will just have to live at my friends house in the summer, and they can live at my house in the winter. I think I might make that work.



Yes, it might be worth a small fortune today! A few weeks ago I saw my late great uncle's house featured in the Toronto Star's Home section in the "what they got" column. My GU sold the house, which was in the Leaside area, in the early 2000's for less than $500K - it just resold for nearly 2 million!! Granted the kitchen & bathrooms had been redone - but wow, that's quite a return on their investment!!


~Diane


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## silentg (May 6, 2019)

We moved to Florida 31 years ago, because my husband got a big career changing job with plenty of perks, they paid for house hunting trips. Paid all moving expenses, helped us get a mortgage etc.
We found a perfect family house in a nice area with brand new schools and stores, lots of activities for the kids. DH is retiring this summer, the kids have been on their own for some time now. We consider this our retirement house. We are so used to living here, we don’t want to move. 
Our timeshares and trips are like having a vacation home. But none of the worries of owning a second home. 
Silentg


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## DaveNV (May 6, 2019)

moonstone said:


> Yes, it might be worth a small fortune today! A few weeks ago I saw my late great uncle's house featured in the Toronto Star's Home section in the "what they got" column. My GU sold the house, which was in the Leaside area, in the early 2000's for less than $500K - it just resold for nearly 2 million!! Granted the kitchen & bathrooms had been redone - but wow, that's quite a return on their investment!!
> 
> 
> ~Diane




A house I lived in right after I got out of high school in Hawaii went through a fire a year later.  The family who owned it were given about $150K for it all, including their possessions.  A few years ago I was on vacation in Hawaii and drove by the house, just to check it out.  It had long since been rebuilt, and was on the market - for $1.4 Million.  

Dave


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## MrockStar (May 6, 2019)

Glynda said:


> We bought our second home 11 years before hubby retired. Since we had known since 1985 that we wanted to retire in Charleston, it seemed that prices in the Historic District would only get higher over the years. We bought a 1170 sq ft circa 1875 kitchen house. We started out with a mortgage, spent three years remodeling it from top to bottom, used it on weekends, vacations, and for me when hubby was traveling for work. We then sold our 5,000 sq ft. house and bought a 3,600 sq ft house in NC, where hubby worked and paid off our CHS home. Eight years later, with retirement almost upon us, and knowing that we would be moving my mother out of her FL home and bringing her to live with us in Charleston, we bought a 3,000 sq ft house, also in the Historic District, with cash, and began some remodeling of it. Two years later, we sold our NC home and moved to Charleston permanently. We began renting the kitchen house out. We've had a lot of people wanting to buy it but just can't bring ourselves to part with it. When my mother is no longer with us, I see selling our current home, ridding ourselves of much we have and moving back into the little house. It is pretty much a lock and leave house with fewer expenses and very little landscaping to maintain. We would miss our current location closer to restaurants and our great neighbors though. Still, we hope to travel for months at a time, perhaps spend the hot months of the year in New England and the cooler months in our little house. Time will tell.


That seemed like a great plan. Ours is somewhat opposite of yours. We purchased a vacation home in northern Michigan 3 houses from Higgians lake about 2.5 Hours from our Home in SE MI. We remodeld the kitchen and made several improvements. We go up there almost ever weekend, and my wife is a teacher so she spends the summer up there. we plan to sell our home down state and downsize and retire there full time in 5 or 6 years. Then we can fully use our timeshare to snowbird to warmer places like florida & Georga and South Carolina 11 t0 13 weeks.


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## Snazzylass (May 7, 2019)

@Snazzylass: We're looking strongly at Southern Nevada.  Still deciding where, and not ruling out any particular area.  We're spending a few days down there at the end of this month to "walk the streets" a bit, and get a feeling for whether it would be a good fit.  The Costco transfer is actually a huge part of the possible plans, and isn't an easily accomplished thing.  I've been approaching things from the idea that a transfer wasn't likely to happen, but if one can be arranged, it may change everything, and we can move sooner.  All else being equal, we'll probably wait to buy something until we know if/what will happen for my spouse's job.  Then we'll sell here, move there, and deal with the real estate market at that time.  This is a very loose plan.  Stay tuned.  

Dave[/QUOTE] 

That's sounds like an ideal location for your needs. I hope the Costco thing works out. My impression is that real estate is a little soft there. In general, you should not need to worry about healthcare.


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## Snazzylass (May 7, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Just wondering because the MF on our brand new condo is $500. There is no pool and only 60 units. I thought $500 a month was high for brand new construction. I imagine we will be in the $700-$800 range in a few years.


I've looked a lot at real estate here and those fees are not out of the norm. The purpose of $500/ mo now is to build up the fund (reserves) for when things need to be addressed. Think of it as a bit of a savings account.
It's better to have a well-funded HOA than a struggling one!


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## WinniWoman (May 7, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Just wondering because the MF on our brand new condo is $500. There is no pool and only 60 units. I thought $500 a month was high for brand new construction. I imagine we will be in the $700-$800 range in a few years.



Wow. I am coming across some of these types of communities on line in my search. I think this is crazy. I look at some of these homes/condos and think- what the hell do they (the HOA) do for this kind of money?
They say they do "landscaping" and snow removal and trash and insurance. That's it. Most don't have pools or a gym or a clubhouse or activities or anything at all. They do not even take care of the exterior of the homes/buildings.

In NH, for example, I would not consider what they do landscaping. Some of the communities we looked at - the lawn is barely mowed- brown and barely any bushes or flowers or anything. Nothing impressive to look at.

So- wait. At home it costs us $45 per month for plowing our 700 foot driveway. The town plows our road. Yes- we do have to shovel around our doorways and our deck. Hubby just had to buy a new snowblower last year after like 10-15 years. But we could always hire someone to shovel around our entrance ways if we had to.

At most of these condo associations, they only plow- they do not shovel up to your doorway or even over to your oil or propane tank for the delivery guy!

It costs us $36 per month for trash pick up. We have no landscaping to do as we are living in the woods, except an occasional mow (we do not have a lawn to speak of) and blowing leaves in the Fall- maybe a little cleaning up. I usually put two flower pots outside with some flowers in the summer. BUT, we could get a landscaping company to come out and mow if we needed to, or to do whatever else. Hubby also had to buy a lawnmower last year- after 10-15 years. But- he barely has to use it.

We pay $24 per month for our own security system monitoring. Most HOA's do not have security- some might.

Every so many years sometimes we have to have trees taken down and our driveway sealed. We already have to take care of the exterior (and interior ) of our home so that's a wash. We, of course, have to pay all our utilities/oil/wood/propane and other expenses like internet and TV.  Sure, we have to pay to have our boiler serviced and our wood stove chimney cleaned. And we already don't have a pool (though we could get one) or a clubhouse. We have our own exercise equipment in our home.

We are surrounded by beauty- the woods and wildlife and privacy.

Missing- family, friends and an active community setting. Will be difficult to age into due to seclusion. Have to drive everywhere.

Then there are the property and school taxes. Yes- here- very expensive.  = $825+ per month right now and rising every year. But- same in an HOA community- you still have to pay taxes. In NH,- they can run $500 per month and up. Other states, taxes are cheap.

So-leaving property and school taxes out of it as it has nothing to do with the HOA fees-

I add this up and for us get $105 per month (with the security monitoring) for the basics and then, of course, extra for the other things I mentioned as they come up- just as you would in the HOA situation anyway.

Even if I throw in, let's say, $100 or even $200 per month for home maintenance.....still don't get to $500 and up

So- $500 per month or more? Crazy town.

I mean- it all comes down to what do they do for the money you pay. That is the bottom line.

I was looking at CCRC's also- most at $3100 - $5500 per month (no care or meals included- independent living). They give you a worksheet to fill in to compare your current living costs with that of the CCRC- for Independent living. Ummm....you can see how that worked out. I am surprised they even give you this worksheet. Must believe most people can't add.


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## pedro47 (May 7, 2019)

No! We do not own a second or a retirement home outright. Our second and retirement home,
we also, called timeshare and hotels time.


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## jme (May 7, 2019)

pedro47 said:


> No! We do not own a second or a retirement home outright. Our second and retirement home,
> we also, called timeshare and hotels time.



Exactly, and it's called freedom.


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## OldGuy (May 7, 2019)

pedro47 said:


> No! We do not own a second or a retirement home outright. Our second and retirement home,
> we also, called timeshare and hotels time.





jme said:


> Exactly, and it's called freedom.



Funny, freedom for us was just the opposite . . . when we stopped paying $2000/week to timeshare in Florida in the Winter, and bought a place to be there all winter, for less money.

The good thing is being old enough to have that freedom.

The bad thing is being old enough to have that freedom.


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## am1 (May 7, 2019)

We pay $125 a month for trash, worker lives on site,  large community pool, landscaping.  0nly 31 houses.  Still feel it’s a little pricey.


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## OldGuy (May 7, 2019)

am1 said:


> We pay $125 a month for trash, worker lives on site,  large community pool, landscaping.  0nly 31 houses.  Still feel it’s a little pricey.



We pay $800/year in property tax for a house, with no maintenance fee, and that includes weekly trash, recycling, and lawn waste pickup, and large bulk lawn waste and appliance pickup on order.

Of course, it also pays for police, fire, schools, roads, sidewalks, parks, beaches, etc. . . . .


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## TravelTime (May 7, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> We pay $800/year in property tax for a house, with no maintenance fee, and that includes weekly trash, recycling, and lawn waste pickup, and large bulk lawn waste and appliance pickup on order.
> 
> Of course, it also pays for police, fire, schools, roads, sidewalks, parks, beaches, etc. . . . .



That is like living for free! I did not include my property taxes in my HOA fees since it is separate. I guess we can see how inequitable the property tax laws are. But good for you!


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## OldGuy (May 7, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> That is like living for free! I did not include my property taxes in my HOA fees since it is separate. I guess we can see how inequitable the property tax laws are. But good for you!



Well, not free, but better than the $2000/week we used to spend to be there.  Small vacation rentals are $4000/month.

Our FL county likes to have their hand in a lot of our business, but, once you get used to that, it's not all that bad.

You can get by because of the Save Our Homes Act, by dropping Wind from your homeowners insurance, and if you were lucky enough to have bought at the bottom of the bottom, when thousands of perfectly good homes were available for, in our case, twenty cents on the dollar.

Hurricanes?  We've been through two.  They can huff and puff, but it's really hard to blow over a little concrete block house.  You clear the trees, put up a new privacy fence, and all's well.  (knocking on you-know-what)

We also like the affordability of used vehicles, thrift stores, etc.  We also have a great neighborhood, lots of looking out for each other and stuff like that.

Just before we left this year, I stumbled onto a canal-to-Gulf front lot where a manufactured home had been removed, and an absentee owner had it for sale.  I searched the Internet to see what it would take to put a nice manufactured home on it, and I found a whole community near Tampa with really nice $15K-20K homes.

There's a lot of manufactured home communities in our neck 'o the swamp.


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## VacationForever (May 7, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> That is like living for free! I did not include my property taxes in my HOA fees since it is separate. I guess we can see how inequitable the property tax laws are. But good for you!


Our property tax is only about half a percent.


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## OldGuy (May 7, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> Our property tax is only about half a percent.



_half a percent _could mean a lot of things.


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## OldGuy (May 7, 2019)

am1 said:


> . . .  worker lives on site . . .



I'm not sure what that means for you, but we have that, too.  This winter he put a new roof on the house, fixed the water heater, repaired the air conditioner, cleared the brush along the canal, put in steps and a dock, mows regularly, takes care of the vehicles, keeps the boat running . . .

We have another worker who sweeps up all the sand and yuck that makes it's way into the house every day, makes the beds every morning, generally cleans the place up, takes care of the cats and dog, does the laundry, cooks most of the food . . . .



Best of all, of course, none of our workers have to shovel snow, but they like to see those stories on the news.


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## VacationForever (May 7, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> _half a percent _could mean a lot of things.


Half a percent on appriased value of home when purchased, subject to cap of 3 percent increase on property tax per year.


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## OldGuy (May 7, 2019)

Appraised value or selling (purchase) price?

The 3% cap sounds like Florida Save Our Homes.

In our case, it's a "public information" state, so selling prices are public information, and "appraised" value goes by that, with some instances that they don't.

The policies are strange . . . we bought a foreclosure that was probably $150K under the previous appraised value, based on previous selling prices, and our new value was our much-lower foreclosure price.  No complaint there.

But, then, we bought our current house as a tax deed, actually at the same price-ish as the first one, but they did not allow the tax deed price to be the appraised value.  The previous appraised value carried forward.  Still not much complaint, but a little.
- - - - - -
Speaking of Save Our Homes, and why that came about, let's go back to the boom years.  We had been looking for a second home every January in the 90s.  In '97, things that were $200K when we looked at them in '96, were starting at $1.5M.  They were tear-downs for new houses in a high-demand area.

Of course, if people had their houses re-appraised from $200K to $1.5M, based on the market, most people could not afford to stay.


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## VacationForever (May 7, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Appraised value or selling (purchase) price?
> 
> The 3% cap sounds like Florida Save Our Homes.


Yes.  If you pay $500K on a home, the property tax is about $2500 per year.  Subsequent increase is capped at 3% of $2500 per year.


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## Dori (May 7, 2019)

We love being snowbirds from Ontario, but are not interested in selling our home here, as our grandchildren live 5 minutes away, and they love to spend time with us when we are not travelling. I'm sure that will change as they become teenagers, but for now they love to hang out with Grandma and Grandpa. 
We always thought we would like to buy a condo in Florida, and spend 5-6 months there and rent the other months. At that time, we were spending 4-6 weeks timesharing in Florida.

Some friends of ours ( a work colleague of mine and his wife) own a mobile home in a 55 plus community, and they invited us  to visit while we were staying in Orlando. We immediately loved the feel of the park, the beautiful golf course, the pool and the friendly people (many Canadians). Needless to say, we bought a 69 foot single-wide, 2-bedroom, 2 bathroom unit. With the screened -in lanai, it is about 1200 square feet. It has all the comforts of home (dishwasher, washer, dryer, huge master bedroom with ensuite). We paid less than we would pay for a new car.

Because it is not considered a permanent dwelling, but a vehicle, we purchase a sticker each year, just like a licence plate! We don't own the land, and our lot rent is just over $400 per month. We are responsible for hydro, water, internet, and lawn maintenance. 

We are so happy to be a part of this wonderful community, where we have made so many friends. There are so many activities and functions that we participate in during our time there. We still come home for Christmas every year, and will probably do so for the next few years.
 This is our "Piece of Paradise"!

Dori


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## PamMo (May 7, 2019)

Dave, we've had a long time love affair with Sedona, and seriously considered buying a permanent home there for retirement about 10 years ago. That was way before we planned to retire, but home prices had plummeted and seemed like a bargain. Now we're seriously house hunting and home prices have skyrocketed. What was $500k back then is way beyond $1M now. (Phoenix prices are at historical highs now, too.) We own a few homes and are in no rush to buy, but I sure wish we would've bought our Sedona dream home earlier. If only we had a crystal ball into the future...


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## DaveNV (May 7, 2019)

PamMo said:


> Dave, we've had a long time love affair with Sedona, and seriously considered buying a permanent home there for retirement about 10 years ago. That was way before we planned to retire, but home prices had plummeted and seemed like a bargain. Now we're seriously house hunting and home prices have skyrocketed. What was $500k back then is way beyond $1M now. (Phoenix prices are at historical highs now, too.) We own a few homes and are in no rush to buy, but I sure wish we would've bought our Sedona dream home earlier. If only we had a crystal ball into the future...



Every time I go to Sedona I find myself checking out real estate, thinking, "I could live here." But it never happens.  Not surprised to hear properties there are so expensive now. About as close as we got was looking closer at Prescott, where they have a Costco (as long as I'm married, we need a Costco nearby - it's the LAW.)  But we didn't buy in Prescott either.

After all these years, and all the towns where I say, "I could live here," a couple of places in Southern Nevada are still topping the list.  It's time to put boots on the ground and see it in depth.  We're going to spend an afternoon with a real estate agent in one of those towns in a couple of weeks.  We'll see what develops. 

Dave


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## DebBrown (May 8, 2019)

We bought a vacation home 2.5 years ago.  It wasn't a plan.  We were vacationing in the area and saw the house that we thought was perfect for us and our three dogs.  (Vacation with dogs is tricky and leaving them behind difficult.)  Now we think of it as possibly a retirement home but it's pretty tiny - tiny but on a lot of land with lakefront.  I absolutely love being there and can be there a lot since I work from home - or anywhere.

So the logistics.... we didn't have a mortgage on our current home.  We found it easier to refinance this home instead of the vacation home.  The debt ratio was much better on our pricey city house.  We plan to have it paid off in 2-3 years so we'll be debt free again by retirement.  The downside is that it wasn't meant to be a retirement home and is pretty small.  We're on top of each other.  It only works now because DH only comes on weekends.  We haven't got the whole retirement thing figured out yet.


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## PamMo (May 8, 2019)

BTW, Dave, we've always been impressed with Costco loyalty. I was surprised when a friend (who retired in his early 40's after he sold his tech company) moved from California, to Kauai, to Arizona, then back to California - all places so his wife could continue working at Costco. He'd had medical problems after a motorcycle accident and they needed health insurance. She loved working for Costco, and they always found her a job. I hope it's still the same for your wife.


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## OldGuy (May 8, 2019)

As Mitt Romney reportedly said during Katrina, "Those people should go to one of their other places."


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## joestein (May 8, 2019)

We are in similar situations to many of you.    My wife and I are 49.   Not close to retirement, but not that far either.    We are paying off our mortgage this year, and will be completely debt free.   We will take the mortgage payment and put it into savings each month.  Combined with what we save already (not including 401K or 529) we will start to accumulate some serious cash. 

One of our good friends bought an apartment on the Jersey Shore that she plans on retiring to.   We do love the building and she keeps telling us to buy there as well.   She feels that the area is getting more expensive and that apartments could be worth 2X in 5 or 10 years.

I am not against buying an apartment, but I am concerned with having to pay for the upkeep of a second place when I am not using it.  Should I buy and then rent it?  These are the questions that I face and I am not sure about the answers.

a side note.... My wife works for a major bank in regulatory.  While she just switched banks, there are usually many hoops you need to go through to buy or sell stocks, bonds, etc.  So I it is not really a great answer for us.

Joe


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## OldGuy (May 8, 2019)

joestein said:


> We are in similar situations to many of you.    My wife and I are 49.   Not close to retirement, but not that far either.    We are paying off our mortgage this year, and will be completely debt free.   We will take the mortgage payment and put it into savings each month.  Combined with what we save already (not including 401K or 529) we will start to accumulate some serious cash.
> 
> One of our good friends bought an apartment on the Jersey Shore that she plans on retiring to.   We do love the building and she keeps telling us to buy there as well.   She feels that the area is getting more expensive and that apartments could be worth 2X in 5 or 10 years.
> 
> ...



We bought our retirement home, (debt-free) in '97, when I was 48.  When we moved there in '02, that was the end of our other mortgage.

We put a little mortgage on our second retirement home in 2011, but paid that off when some CDs matured.

We bought our third retirement home on an interest free credit card cash advance in 2015, and paid that off when we sold our second retirement home.

So, now we have our original '97 retirement home, where we plan on building another house, and our third (2015) retirement home.

No mortgages.

No money either.  

Just us, but we would never, ever consider HOAs or heavy Restrictive Covenants.


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## DaveNV (May 8, 2019)

PamMo said:


> BTW, Dave, we've always been impressed with Costco loyalty. I was surprised when a friend (who retired in his early 40's after he sold his tech company) moved from California, to Kauai, to Arizona, then back to California - all places so his wife could continue working at Costco. He'd had medical problems after a motorcycle accident and they needed health insurance. She loved working for Costco, and they always found her a job. I hope it's still the same for your wife.



Thanks, Pam. Costco employee loyalty is an important part of the company's philosophy.  After nearly 25 years with Costco, and being just a few years from retirement, it’d be very difficult to try and change careers. Employee seniority is huge at Costco (spouse is senior person in the department, and often trains junior staff and new managers), work schedule choice (no evening or weekend workdays, because of that seniority), wages and benefits (excellent, as everyone knows), and a lot of intangibles would make changing companies a very difficult thing at this point. Better to work out the clock to retire from the current warehouse, than to move to a new company.

The only realistic option is an internal transfer to a different Costco building, where everything stays the same, after a six month settling in period. But that sort of thing only happens if there is a position available at the new warehouse. And that’s the biggest obstacle to the whole idea of moving anywhere. Some positions (Front-end cashier, stock clerks) at Costco are easily transferred because there is a lot of availability and turnover. Spouse is the head of refunds at Member Services here, a very specific position that is pretty hard to get, and has little turnover. We’ve been working at this warehouse for 19 years. So the whole idea of transferring may just be wishful thinking at this point. 

Dave


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## Passepartout (May 8, 2019)

DebBrown said:


> We bought a vacation home 2.5 years ago.  It wasn't a plan.  We were vacationing in the area and saw the house that we thought was perfect for us and our three dogs.  (Vacation with dogs is tricky and leaving them behind difficult.)  Now we think of it as possibly a retirement home but it's pretty tiny - tiny but on a lot of land with lakefront.  I absolutely love being there and can be there a lot since I work from home - or anywhere.
> We plan to have it paid off in 2-3 years so we'll be debt free again by retirement.  The downside is that it wasn't meant to be a retirement home and is pretty small.  We're on top of each other.  It only works now because DH only comes on weekends.  We haven't got the whole retirement thing figured out yet.


Since you have room on the lot, how about either adding on or otherwise causing a new structure to appear there?


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## VacationForever (May 8, 2019)

DebBrown said:


> We bought a vacation home 2.5 years ago.  It wasn't a plan.  We were vacationing in the area and saw the house that we thought was perfect for us and our three dogs.  (Vacation with dogs is tricky and leaving them behind difficult.)  Now we think of it as possibly a retirement home but it's pretty tiny - tiny but on a lot of land with lakefront.  I absolutely love being there and can be there a lot since I work from home - or anywhere.
> 
> So the logistics.... we didn't have a mortgage on our current home.  We found it easier to refinance this home instead of the vacation home.  The debt ratio was much better on our pricey city house.  We plan to have it paid off in 2-3 years so we'll be debt free again by retirement.  The downside is that it wasn't meant to be a retirement home and is pretty small.  We're on top of each other.  It only works now because DH only comes on weekends.  We haven't got the whole retirement thing figured out yet.


Since there is ample land, you can add an extension to the home?


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## slip (May 8, 2019)

DaveNW said:


> Spouse is the head of refunds at Member Services here, a very specific position that is pretty hard to get, and has little turnover. We’ve been working at this warehouse for 19 years. So the whole idea of transferring may just be wishful thinking at this point.
> 
> Dave



This situation is close to mine when my company took over a company in Hawaii. They are in most of the island but because my job is really specific a chance at a transfer was very small and if it did happen would have been on Oahu, an island I didn’t want to move to or be able to afford. I still watch go openings in Hawaii though.


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## TravelTime (May 8, 2019)

joestein said:


> We are in similar situations to many of you.    My wife and I are 49.   Not close to retirement, but not that far either.    We are paying off our mortgage this year, and will be completely debt free.   We will take the mortgage payment and put it into savings each month.  Combined with what we save already (not including 401K or 529) we will start to accumulate some serious cash.
> 
> One of our good friends bought an apartment on the Jersey Shore that she plans on retiring to.   We do love the building and she keeps telling us to buy there as well.   She feels that the area is getting more expensive and that apartments could be worth 2X in 5 or 10 years.
> 
> ...



This is our plan. We are selling 2 properties now and will use the proceeds to pay off our primary home’s mortgage as well as buy a condo for cash. Then we will take the amount we would have paid in mortgages and put it into retirement funds. It is really nice to live debt free.

I think if you can buy your second home for cash, and you feel it is a good investment now, then that could make sense. We have never rented our second homes, mainly because we want to use them and live in them and I do not like the idea of renters touching my things. 

We had a rental property awhile back that we were never planning to live in and the renters made a mess of it. So we sold it. That is when we decided we are not the landlord type.


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## OldGuy (May 8, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> We had a rental property awhile back that we were never planning to live in and the renters made a mess of it. So we sold it. That is when we decided we are not the landlord type.



When my wife and I got married, we bought another house (hers, mine, and ours), and we kept the two previous houses which I then managed as rental property for 14 years.  I spent 3 months getting hers back in shape after the last tenants, and when I came home the last night of restoring it, I said, "I'm not doing this any more."

When we bought our second Florida house, and were going to keep the first one as a vacation rental house, I said, "I'm not doing that any more."


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## OldGuy (May 8, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> When we bought our second Florida house, and were going to keep the first one as a vacation rental house, I said, "I'm not doing that any more."



Our second Florida house is next door to our first Florida house.  Both our first house and the house next door on the other side have been vacation rentals, and they both have been sold or are for sale.


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## DebBrown (May 8, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> Since you have room on the lot, how about either adding on or otherwise causing a new structure to appear there?





VacationForever said:


> Since there is ample land, you can add an extension to the home?



Funny how we think alike.    Yeah, It's an idea but the lots are forested and I hate to disturb that.  My daughter just bought a house across the lake from us so now there is overflow space for family.  We may just add a 3-season room so we can spread out more.


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## DaveNV (May 8, 2019)

DebBrown said:


> Funny how we think alike.    Yeah, It's an idea but the lots are forested and I hate to disturb that.  My daughter just bought a house across the lake from us so now there is overflow space for family.  We may just add a 3-season room so we can spread out more.



What about a second floor? Raise the roof, and go for it. 

Dave


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## VacationForever (May 8, 2019)

DaveNW said:


> What about a second floor? Raise the roof, and go for it.
> 
> Dave


Then you have to worry about foundation, load etc.


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## MrockStar (May 8, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> We pay $800/year in property tax for a house, with no maintenance fee, and that includes weekly trash, recycling, and lawn waste pickup, and large bulk lawn waste and appliance pickup on order.
> 
> Of course, it also pays for police, fire, schools, roads, sidewalks, parks, beaches, etc. . . . .


Wow what state atr you in? That covers my winter taxes only.


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## MrockStar (May 8, 2019)

Dori said:


> We love being snowbirds from Ontario, but are not interested in selling our home here, as our grandchildren live 5 minutes away, and they love to spend time with us when we are not travelling. I'm sure that will change as they become teenagers, but for now they love to hang out with Grandma and Grandpa.
> We always thought we would like to buy a condo in Florida, and spend 5-6 months there and rent the other months. At that time, we were spending 4-6 weeks timesharing in Florida.
> 
> Some friends of ours ( a work colleague of mine and his wife) own a mobile home in a 55 plus community, and they invited us  to visit while we were staying in Orlando. We immediately loved the feel of the park, the beautiful golf course, the pool and the friendly people (many Canadians). Needless to say, we bought a 69 foot single-wide, 2-bedroom, 2 bathroom unit. With the screened -in lanai, it is about 1200 square feet. It has all the comforts of home (dishwasher, washer, dryer, huge master bedroom with ensuite). We paid less than we would pay for a new car.
> ...


Nice, community means a lot.


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## DaveNV (May 8, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> Then you have to worry about foundation, load etc.



Not if the second floor is self supported, separate from the first floor foundation.  I once remodeled a single floor cabin and added a second floor on half of it.  The builder ran the front supports down through the existing first floor and onto their own poured footings. The back supports ran down the outside back wall to their own poured footings.  Roofed the entire thing, tied it all together, and it worked great.  That second floor supported a king sized waterbed without a problem.  I lived in that house nine years, and the new owners are still in it, all these years later.  So it can be done, it just needs planning.

Dave


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## WinniWoman (May 8, 2019)

MrockStar said:


> Wow what state atr you in? That covers my winter taxes only.




Here in NY our taxes are $825 *PER MONTH*! NO trash pick up or ANY kind of pick up.


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## joestein (May 9, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> When my wife and I got married, we bought another house (hers, mine, and ours), and we kept the two previous houses which I then managed as rental property for 14 years.  I spent 3 months getting hers back in shape after the last tenants, and when I came home the last night of restoring it, I said, "I'm not doing this any more."
> 
> When we bought our second Florida house, and were going to keep the first one as a vacation rental house, I said, "I'm not doing that any more."



That is what scares me, I don't think I am the landlord type.  However, it does seems a good investment when it goes right.


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## rapmarks (May 9, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Here in NY our taxes are $825 *PER MONTH*! NO trash pick up or ANY kind of pick up.



It all depends on what you find acceptable.  We own two modest homes. Some people would only consider living in an expensive home. I have visited friends in Florida and Arizona who owned condos for under fifty thousand dollars.  I know people with a park model north and south,  some places have amenities and others are in nice areas but have no amenities.  We didn’t want to spend winters upnorth anymore, but we also wanted to have amenities, so we pay for them.  Someone spoke against HOA 
restrictions, but those restrictions protect your home values and perhaps safety.  One thing I have noticed, a $35000 condo in a senior community is going to have a more stable community than in a non restricted neighborhood.  
We were renting in Arizona to be near my mother in law.  We found a nice new condo in a 55 over development.  Controlling step brother said I can get you a better deal.  Took us to old apartment complex, old furnishings and appliances, all service men and their young families, toys everywhere, same price, different neighbors.


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## Arb (May 9, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> We have no complaints for what we pay in HOA.  We have no pool and gym as I have stated above.  But the incredible beauty that we are surrounded with and that moment hits us each time we drive into the resort community, we say to overselves that every dime of the HOA that we pay is worth it.  Our condo building is also incredibly well maintained.  If you are in the area, I would love to show you around and maybe you will also fall in love with this area like many of us.


I've been reading this thread with great interest! We have considered moving to the Sarasota area for the winter and the mountains of North Carolina for the summers. Where in Florida is your condo? Perhaps we should consider other Florida areas. We seem to be stuck in indecision. We are both retired from work and can move where we like....


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## rapmarks (May 9, 2019)

Arb said:


> I've been reading this thread with great interest! We have considered moving to the Sarasota area for the winter and the mountains of North Carolina for the summers. Where in Florida is your condo? Perhaps we should consider other Florida areas. We seem to be stuck in indecision. We are both retired from work and can move where we like....


I think she is in Arizona or the Southwest


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## WinniWoman (May 9, 2019)

rapmarks said:


> It all depends on what you find acceptable.  We own two modest homes. Some people would only consider living in an expensive home. I have visited friends in Florida and Arizona who owned condos for under fifty thousand dollars.  I know people with a park model north and south,  some places have amenities and others are in nice areas but have no amenities.  We didn’t want to spend winters upnorth anymore, but we also wanted to have amenities, so we pay for them.  Someone spoke against HOA
> restrictions, but those restrictions protect your home values and perhaps safety.  One thing I have noticed, a $35000 condo in a senior community is going to have a more stable community than in a non restricted neighborhood.
> We were renting in Arizona to be near my mother in law.  We found a nice new condo in a 55 over development.  Controlling step brother said I can get you a better deal.  Took us to old apartment complex, old furnishings and appliances, all service men and their young families, toys everywhere, same price, different neighbors.




Well, considering where we live we do not have any amenities. Our road is a disaster. All broken up. Never had painted lines on it. They occasionally patch it. They just dig trenches along the side for drainage. Ok- yeah -they plow it at least. We have no fire hydrants or street lights.  We have a plain vanilla, vinyl sided salt box home built in 1987 worth maybe $275,000 if we are lucky (though it should be worth more). Half of our land is considered forestland and not sub dividable and tiny road frontage. We have to pay for garbage pick up and if you have larger items to junk you have to get them to the county (not town) dump, which is 45 minutes away, one day per year. If you don't own a truck- tough luck.

We have our own well and a septic- so no sewers or water provided either.

We are not getting our money's worth. That said-it could be worse- as from what we see all over the country on line in the real estate listings- there are a lot of other places where people are not getting their's as well.


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## WinniWoman (May 9, 2019)

Arb said:


> I've been reading this thread with great interest! We have considered moving to the Sarasota area for the winter and the mountains of North Carolina for the summers. Where in Florida is your condo? Perhaps we should consider other Florida areas. We seem to be stuck in indecision. We are both retired from work and can move where we like....




She is in Nevada.


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## WinniWoman (May 9, 2019)

rapmarks said:


> I think she is in Arizona or the Southwest




 Nevada.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 9, 2019)

We are in Calif. and will end up somewhere in the west. We are considering Nevada for residency tax advantages for 6 months and 1 day, and then owning a smaller second home in Calif for the rest of the year.

Will never move into a senior community or a large HOA. I saw with relatives'experiences how there are too many busy-body people with too much time on their hands who get upset about minutiae and complain about everything, and spend their time telling others how to maintain their home and live their life. But that's just me.


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## VacationForever (May 9, 2019)

Arb said:


> I've been reading this thread with great interest! We have considered moving to the Sarasota area for the winter and the mountains of North Carolina for the summers. Where in Florida is your condo? Perhaps we should consider other Florida areas. We seem to be stuck in indecision. We are both retired from work and can move where we like....


We are West Coasters so no Florida for us.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 9, 2019)

IMHO Florida is too humid for me.


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## VacationForever (May 9, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> We are in Calif. and will end up somewhere in the west. We are considering Nevada for residency tax advantages for 6 months and 1 day, and then owning a smaller second home in Calif for the rest of the year.
> 
> Will never move into a senior community or a large HOA. I saw with relatives'experiences how there are too many busy-body people with too much time on their hands who get upset about minutiae and complain about everything, and spend their time telling others how to maintain their home and live their life. But that's just me.



On the contrary from our single current experience.  We only have 26 units in a closely knitted community.  5 on the HOA board and we all work closely together to make it a wonderful experience for all.  We have a potluck every month, get together to go out for dinner for the holidays, and we get invited to some big deal birthdays... 80th etc.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 9, 2019)

@VacationForever You must be in a unicorn community. Most HOAs have fights over those who want improvements and those who will let the place decline just to avoid increasing maint fees. Some people get on the boards just so they can feel powerful and nit pick their neighbors yards etc.

With that said, we have a small HOA in our single family home community, for the most part it is decent, but one of our neighbors started telling me how upset she was about where a neighbor was parking their car on the street (not visible by her home).

I told her "I didn't care because it wasn't in front of my home and the neighbor who's house it is front of gave them permission so it was none of my business." She filed a complaint to the HOA.

Ironically she has had a trailer on her driveway which is technically a violation. It is people in glass houses who throw the most stones.

This is this **it that makes me hate HOAs and busy-bodies.


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## VacationForever (May 9, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @VacationForever You must be in a unicorn community. Most HOAs have fights over those who want improvements and those who will let the place decline just to avoid increasing maint fees. Some peopleget on the boards just so they can feel powerful and nit pick their neighbors yards etc.


I hear you.  But not here.  We have several sub-committees for improving security and beautification etc etc.  We live in a very high end condo so HOA costs is the least of the issues.  My unit was sold in 2008 for $1.8m to give you an idea of the quality of the units and building.


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## TravelTime (May 9, 2019)

MrockStar said:


> Wow what state atr you in? That covers my winter taxes only.



Ha ha, his annual tax bill covers about 1/2 of one month for us.


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## TravelTime (May 9, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Well, considering where we live we do not have any amenities. Our road is a disaster. All broken up. Never had painted lines on it. They occasionally patch it. They just dig trenches along the side for drainage. Ok- yeah -they plow it at least. We have no fire hydrants or street lights.  We have a plain vanilla, vinyl sided salt box home built in 1987 worth maybe $275,000 if we are lucky (though it should be worth more). Half of our land is considered forestland and not sub dividable and tiny road frontage. We have to pay for garbage pick up and if you have larger items to junk you have to get them to the county (not town) dump, which is 45 minutes away, one day per year. If you don't own a truck- tough luck.
> 
> We have our own well and a septic- so no sewers or water provided either.
> 
> We are not getting our money's worth. That said-it could be worse- as from what we see all over the country on line in the real estate listings- there are a lot of other places where people are not getting their's as well.



The percentage you are paying in property taxes is 3.6% on the value of your house. That seems awfully high, esp since NY also has some of the highest state taxes in the country. We are in California and we pay a fortune in property taxes esp since we have multiple properties. But the percentage is about 1.2% or so based on assessed value at the time of purchase plus some minimal annual adjustments relative to the real increase in value.


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## TravelTime (May 9, 2019)

I agree HOAs are a pain in the axx normally. We are in 4 HOAs now. That will go down to 3 after the sale of one property. The other property we are selling does not have a HOA. While I hate HOAs, I also love that they do great maintenance and offer extra amenities. So that is why our recent purchases have all been part of HOAs.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 9, 2019)

Alligators frighten me. I heard about that lady that died walking her dog on a trail by a lake in Hilton Head. That scratched Hilton Head off my bucket list. Florida and anyplace that can have gators is off the list.


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## WinniWoman (May 9, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> The percentage you are paying in property taxes is 3.6% on the value of your house. That seems awfully high, esp since NY also has some of the highest state taxes in the country. We are in California and we pay a fortune in property taxes esp since we have multiple properties. But the percentage is about 1.2% or so based on assessed value at the time of purchase plus some minimal annual adjustments relative to the real increase in value.



Actually our house is assessed at $266,000 on the tax records. So it is even worse than what I stated.

We purchased it for $208,000 31 years ago. The property taxes- and the school taxes especially -just keep going up and up with no end in sight.


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## WinniWoman (May 9, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Alligators frighten me. I heard about that lady that died walking her dog on a trail by a lake in Hilton Head. That scratched Hilton Head off my bucket list. Florida and anyplace that can have gators is off the list.




Same here. I keep looking at places in Florida and other southern states and then have to remind myself how I hate reptiles, humidity, hurricanes and tornadoes.


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## OldGuy (May 9, 2019)

MrockStar said:


> Wow what state atr you in? That covers my winter taxes only.



Florida . . . homesteaded.


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## rapmarks (May 9, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> The percentage you are paying in property taxes is 3.6% on the value of your house. That seems awfully high, esp since NY also has some of the highest state taxes in the country. We are in California and we pay a fortune in property taxes esp since we have multiple properties. But the percentage is about 1.2% or so based on assessed value at the time of purchase plus some minimal annual adjustments relative to the real increase in value.


My sister lives in a 46 year old condo and pays over four thousand, she would be lucky to sell the condo for $28000.   That is not missing a zero and that is Illinois


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## easyrider (May 10, 2019)

We bought a vacation home on the American River near Mt Rainier. It is a three bed with loft. Nice enough place. No phone service. I can use a cell phone booster if I want phone and internet. I really thought this would be a good idea. What I have decided is that I do not like it as much as my time shares. Our family uses the place quite a bit. It is only a 60 minute drive from home. So it is convenient. It also requires work. Even though there are family members that help out I still end up working on it, which I thought would be kind of fun in retirement. Its not as fun as I imagined. 

When I work on my time share I am only using the phone. When I work on my vacation home it usually requires a trip into town and a few hours. That equals most of the day.

Bill


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## am1 (May 10, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Same here. I keep looking at places in Florida and other southern states and then have to remind myself how I hate reptiles, humidity, hurricanes and tornadoes.



But taxes, heating and overall lower cost of living.


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## elaine (May 10, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> reptiles, humidity, hurricanes and tornadoes


we bought a pre-retirement fixer home 6 hours from DC in coastal NC in a golf community. We were slightly south of hurricane Florence last year, but thankfully had no major damage. Last fall, DH almost put his hand on a copperhead while clearing the flower bed. Constant work and maintenance. DH will be retiring and 1/2 time there in Sept. He loves it! A club membership came with the house with a $3K transfer fee (vs. $20K for new builds). We pay about $150/month for use of club facilities, 4 pools, tennis courts, etc. DH pays OOP for golf as it's most cost effective while very part-time.
fyi-some studies show that if you plan to have adult kids/families visit more than 1X/year to be within an 8 hour drive. We took this in mind when choosing our location. We have 4 kids in DC area, 3 still in college. We are maintaining 2 homes until kids are out of college. Definitely a budget buster, but I feel it's important for them to have their roots while in college.


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## WinniWoman (May 10, 2019)

am1 said:


> But taxes, heating and overall lower cost of living.




Yes. Of course- for sure. 

Heating is a wash due to AC I would think though.


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## WinniWoman (May 10, 2019)

elaine said:


> we bought a pre-retirement fixer home 6 hours from DC in coastal NC in a golf community. We were slightly south of hurricane Florence last year, but thankfully had no major damage. Last fall, DH almost put his hand on a copperhead while clearing the flower bed. Constant work and maintenance. DH will be retiring and 1/2 time there in Sept. He loves it! A club membership came with the house with a $3K transfer fee (vs. $20K for new builds). We pay about $150/month for use of club facilities, 4 pools, tennis courts, etc. DH pays OOP for golf as it's most cost effective while very part-time.
> fyi-some studies show that if you plan to have adult kids/families visit more than 1X/year to be within an 8 hour drive. We took this in mind when choosing our location. We have 4 kids in DC area, 3 still in college. We are maintaining 2 homes until kids are out of college. Definitely a budget buster, but I feel it's important for them to have their roots while in college.



Sounds good, Elaine! You have a great plan! 

We have never been to NC. 

For us- we have been fixing up and working on homes since we were 21 years old and don't want that anymore. We live in the woods and have a lot of land. Been there/done that. It's beautiful- don't get me wrong. But too lonely to age here and also not safe as the house is secluded.

We also do not play golf or tennis. Hubby likes target practice and hunting and TV and computer and some music and puttering and I like swimming and reading and music and wine and socializing and sometimes theater and movies. We are home bodies, actually, but like to get out and about also.

We both like mountains and wildlife and scenery and I love mountain lakes and the ocean. We hate traffic and crowds. I think that about covers it for us. LOL!

Right you are about choosing a location where you can drive to see your kids or they can drive to see you. I feel that way as well. We see Alex maybe 3x per year. Summers when we are at our timeshares, Thanksgiving and XMAS. This year we will also see him next week for dinner as we are going up to NH a couple of days. (why I don't know- we were supposed to be looking at CCRC's until our FA put a damper on that. I am still not totally convinced he is 100% right)


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## Laurie (May 10, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Alligators frighten me. I heard about that lady that died walking her dog on a trail by a lake in Hilton Head. That scratched Hilton Head off my bucket list. Florida and anyplace that can have gators is off the list.



This made me smile, because we're here at HHI right now, loving the 3-BR 3-BA pet-friendly near-best-beach condo that we purchased for investment, which could easily become our retirement home, if we decide to move here. Everyone's heard of that alligator death because it was such a rare occurence; different things scare different ones of us, and I'd be more scared about earthquakes than alligators -- apparently average 40 death/annually in CA (CA earthquakes were a factor against, when I was deciding where to relocate over 40 years ago and nixed SF because of that!), plus "More Southern Californians have died in rain-related natural hazards, like landslides, flooding and debris flows, than in earthquakes..."
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-chance-dying-earthquake-20160518-snap-htmlstory.html

If you can choose a retirement location that has excellent rental potential, find something you'd enjoy living in, close enough to home that you can use it yourselves when there's a vacancy, and pay for all your fees and expenses out of rental income and create some extra income in the process with which to cover mortgage payments ... the finances are much less daunting. The property is lovely and well-kept-up, with pools & tennis, fees are in the high 400's, and because we accept pets, which is a market here with less supply than demand, we rarely have a vacancy except a few weeks during shoulder seasons.

Hurricanes are a bigger risk here than alligators. When we first purchased, HHI was among the least-likely-to-be hit-by-hurricane locations in the SE. Then a couple of years ago, Matthew came thru. Last fall, we were down here and had to evacuate 2x because of oncoming possible hurricanes, which didn't end up coming here. So there's that to consider; global warming weather trends are changing things in lots of locations.


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## vacationhopeful (May 10, 2019)

Head up to my avatar pictured home for the weekend.


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## penak (May 10, 2019)

No, we've only owned one home at a time


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## WinniWoman (May 10, 2019)

vacationhopeful said:


> Head up to my avatar pictured home for the weekend.




Beautiful lilacs.


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## am1 (May 10, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> I am still not totally convinced he is 100% right)



No one is ever going to be able to totally convince you or anyone.  And if someone does then that is when you should think twice and probably run.


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## slip (May 10, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> (why I don't know- we were supposed to be looking at CCRC's until our FA put a damper on that. I am still not totally convinced he is 100% right)



I would be skeptical too. Financial advisors are supposed to help you accomplish your goals. Without knowing a lot of specifics, it sounds like you can but not the way your financial adviser would like to do it. Sometimes they have to think outside the box and be not so conventional. Not everyone has the same situation and there are many roads to get to where you want. I wouldn’t give up on that yet. Just my two cents worth.


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## bizaro86 (May 10, 2019)

slip said:


> I would be skeptical too. Financial advisor are supposed to help you accomplish your goals. Without knowing a lot of specifics, it sounds like you can but not the way your financial adviser would like to do it. Sometimes they have to think outside the box and be not so conventional. Not everyone has the same situation and there are many roads to get to where you want. I wouldn’t give up on that yet. Just my two cents worth.



Are you paying the advisor based on invest able assets? Then they have a huge incentive for you to keep the money invested vs paying into something else.

I saw this with my friends. The company I used to work for did huge layoffs, including the whole group I was in. Lots of people had defined benefit pensions, and wanted to know whether they should cash them in. A number of folks asked their advisors, or were referred to pension consultants by their advisors. They were unanimously recommended to take the upfront cash and invest it (with the advisor...).

Looking at the deal, they were all way better off to keep the money in the plan. It has plenty of money, payments would be fine even if the company went bankrupt. And the returns people would have to make to do better than the plan are very high given the plan has inflation  adjustments. Those advisors gave the answer that maximized $ for themselves, not their clients...


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## VacationForever (May 10, 2019)

While we have a highly paid money manager, we are the ones who tell him how we have structured our income stream and and the only thing he needs to do is manage our investments.  I have developed a 30-year retirement plan with regards to expenses and income, with cash flow details for the next 60 months and projected annual expense/income for the following 25 years.  If I am still alive after 30 years, I also have a couple of scenarios documented as to what will fund my retirement income.

My money manager suggested that I start my SS at 70 and I showed him why it was a lousy idea.  At the end of the day, no one thinks about our retirement finances better than ourselves.  We should all be comfortable to be in the driver seat.  FAs spend a sliver of their time on each client and don't always think through all aspects.


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## WinniWoman (May 10, 2019)

bizaro86 said:


> Are you paying the advisor based on invest able assets? Then they have a huge incentive for you to keep the money invested vs paying into something else.
> 
> I saw this with my friends. The company I used to work for did huge layoffs, including the whole group I was in. Lots of people had defined benefit pensions, and wanted to know whether they should cash them in. A number of folks asked their advisors, or were referred to pension consultants by their advisors. They were unanimously recommended to take the upfront cash and invest it (with the advisor...).
> 
> Looking at the deal, they were all way better off to keep the money in the plan. It has plenty of money, payments would be fine even if the company went bankrupt. And the returns people would have to make to do better than the plan are very high given the plan has inflation  adjustments. Those advisors gave the answer that maximized $ for themselves, not their clients...



No. He is a fee only. He holds nothing of ours. Totally objective. Paid him $1500 for a plan only. I have access to his help all year and going forward I can use him by the hour or on retainer. He is a Garret Network planner.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 10, 2019)

[QUOTE="My money manager suggested that I start my SS at 70 and I showed him why it was a lousy idea.  At the end of the day, no one thinks about our retirement finances better than ourselves.  We should all be comfortable to be in the driver seat.  FAs spend a sliver of their time on each client and don't always think through all aspects.[/QUOTE]

Totally Agree. For this reason, we actually do our own investing with monthly guidance from financial newsletters such as Bob Brinker on specific funds. Invest in a balanced portfolio in Index fund ETFs. It's not that hard if you are willing to do a bit of homework and dollar cost average in and out of the market to hedge your bets. (This is certainly no worse than understanding the ins and outs of a TS system!)  However I recognize that not everyone is wired for this.


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## VacationForever (May 10, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Totally Agree. For this reason, we actually do our own investing with monthly guidance from financial newsletters such as Bob Brinker on specific funds. Invest in a balanced portfolio in Index fund ETFs. It's not that hard if you are willing to do a bit of homework and dollar cost average in and out of the market to hedge your bets. (This is certainly no worse than understanding the ins and outs of a TS system!)  However I recognize that not everyone is wired for this.



Unfortunately I am not wired for investing my own money.  I actually lost $500K in real money (not paper lost) during the .com crash.  I now leave that out of my hands altogether.


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## MrockStar (May 11, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Sounds good, Elaine! You have a great plan!
> 
> We have never been to NC.
> 
> ...


Yes, 8 hrs or less drive is important. Our lake cottage/retirement home is 2.5 hours from our current home and kids home town. They will be spending memorial day weekend with us up there. "hope for nice weather"


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## MrockStar (May 11, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> While we have a highly paid money manager, we are the ones who tell him how we have structured our income stream and and the only thing he needs to do is manage our investments.  I have developed a 30-year retirement plan with regards to expenses and income, with cash flow details for the next 60 months and projected annual expense/income for the following 25 years.  If I am still alive after 30 years, I also have a couple of scenarios documented as to what will fund my retirement income.
> 
> My money manager suggested that I start my SS at 70 and I showed him why it was a lousy idea.  At the end of the day, no one thinks about our retirement finances better than ourselves.  We should all be comfortable to be in the driver seat.  FAs spend a sliver of their time on each client and don't always think through all aspects.


True that.


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## TravelTime (May 11, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> Unfortunately I am not wired for investing my own money.  I actually lost $500K in real money (not paper lost) during the .com crash.  I now leave that out of my hands altogether.



How did you lose real money during the .com crash? That was in approx 2001 so that was a long time ago, right? Not that that makes it less painful or relevant.


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## VacationForever (May 11, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> How did you lose real money during the .com crash? That was in approx 2001 so that was a long time ago, right? Not that that makes it less painful or relevant.


My ex-husband, well another good reason why he is now my ex-, "helped" tap into margin loan when stocks fell and bought more.  It became double whammy.


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## TravelTime (May 11, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> My ex-husband, well another good reason why he is now my ex-, "helped" tap into margin loan when stocks fell and bought more.  It became double whammy.



That is a bummer. Glad you are rid of him. I figured you were too smart to get into this on your own. Sometimes we have no choice but to go along with loved ones. I am sure he did this without your knowledge.


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## TravelTime (May 11, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> I hear you.  But not here.  We have several sub-committees for improving security and beautification etc etc.  We live in a very high end condo so HOA costs is the least of the issues.  My unit was sold in 2008 for $1.8m to give you an idea of the quality of the units and building.



Did you pay $1.8M or is that what it sold for at the peak of the market?


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## am1 (May 11, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> How did you lose real money during the .com crash? That was in approx 2001 so that was a long time ago, right? Not that that makes it less painful or relevant.



It is always losing real money regardless if you sell or not.  Stock prices change by the second.


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## VacationForever (May 11, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Did you pay $1.8M or is that what it sold for at the peak of the market?



God no, I won't pay $1.8M for any home unless I win the lottery. LOL

It was built in 2008 and was essentially completed except for some cosmetics work when the market crashed.  All 26 units were sold, in that a $35K deposit was placed, with the cheapest at $800K up to $1.8M (my unit).  This resort community probably suffered the worst crash in the area.  With this condo, the banks pulled all financing to the builder and borrowers.  The builder filed for bankruptcy and BOA held the building until it was sold for dirt cheap to a local investor in 2012.  The investor started selling all units in 2012 for cheap relative to their original prices.

The side effect of the real estate market crash in 2008 was that new rules were put in place across USA.  All condos are deemed risky and automatically made non-warrantable, which means that all condos cannot get a conventional loan, i.e. FHA and VA loan.  Buyers have to pay cash as one cannot get a bank loan.  There are non-traditional lenders that one may now find but at very high interest rates. That essentially dropped value on all condos across the country and won't ever recover to its previous level.  You can look up warrantable condos meaning on the internet.  To be warrantable, the HOA can apply to be approved by meeting several criteria.  A new construction is automatically made non-warrantable.  That means no new condos will be built.  Another is no one can own more than 10% of the units. Rental units cannot exceed 25%.  There are other qualifier like lawsuit, HOA delinquency etc.

In 2014 when we looked at condos, the realtor said in the greater Las Vegas metropolitan area, there were only 2 condo buildings that were warrantable.

When we bought this unit, it was an all cash transaction as with the rest of the units in the building.  We got our units relatively cheaply but not as cheaply as the other units in the building as the investor wanted his money back fast but held on the 2 best units as his profits when he sold them.  We did not discover this community until 2014 when the last 2 units were left.  This is a very well built and beautiful building.  Owners who buy here, want to be here rather than because they need to reduce expenses in their retirement.  Hence the "unicorn" of condo as observed above.

The good news is that our HOA put in an application to make our building warrantable about 4 months ago and we have now received both FHA and VA approvals.  That will make it easier for owners to sell when they want to move out.


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## VacationForever (May 11, 2019)

am1 said:


> It is always losing real money regardless if you sell or not.  Stock prices change by the second.



It is real money when you are forced to liquidate the entire account to repay the investment firm.


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## rapmarks (May 11, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> Unfortunately I am not wired for investing my own money.  I actually lost $500K in real money (not paper lost) during the .com crash.
> I know what that feels like


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## rapmarks (May 11, 2019)

This picture popped up on my Facebook feed.  A friend got married a year ago, and her friends threw her a bachelorette party, rented a bus, hit all the clubs on fort Myers beach, she was on stage with all the bands, she is 75.


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## am1 (May 11, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> It is real money when you are forced to liquidate the entire account to repay the investment firm.



That’s worse.  No chance to recover your losses when the market goes up.


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## OldGuy (May 11, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Just before we left this year, I stumbled onto a canal-to-Gulf front lot where a manufactured home had been removed, and an absentee owner had it for sale.  I searched the Internet to see what it would take to put a nice manufactured home on it, and I found a whole community near Tampa with really nice $15K-20K homes.
> 
> There's a lot of manufactured home communities in our neck 'o the swamp.



Here's what I mean: https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sa...55,-82.42836,28.097423,-82.897339_rect/10_zm/

There's a lot of that throughout Florida, and in our neck o the swamp.  You can do Florida on the cheap.  We would be just fine with something like that on our owned lot, on water to the Bay and Gulf, in a quiet neighborhood.

I can't find it now, but when I was looking in March, I found a whole community of brand new ones like this for under $20K.


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## TravelTime (May 11, 2019)

am1 said:


> It is always losing real money regardless if you sell or not.  Stock prices change by the second.



Technically it only counts if you sell and have a real loss. Paper gains and paper losses do not count. VacationForever is correct.


----------



## TravelTime (May 11, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> God no, I won't pay $1.8M for any home unless I win the lottery. LOL
> 
> It was built in 2008 and was essentially completed except for some cosmetics work when the market crashed.  All 26 units were sold, in that a $35K deposit was placed, with the cheapest at $800K up to $1.8M (my unit).  This resort community probably suffered the worst crash in the area.  With this condo, the banks pulled all financing to the builder and borrowers.  The builder filed for bankruptcy and BOA held the building until it was sold for dirt cheap to a local investor in 2012.  The investor started selling all units in 2012 for cheap relative to their original prices.
> 
> ...



We bought several properties during the Great Recession that were incredible deals. One property had construction costs of $2.4M, another was sold for $1.6M at the peak and our primary home (which we are selling) has more than doubled in value since we bought it in 2009-2010. We are also selling an office condo that we got as a steal in 2016 and it, too, has almost doubled in value in just three years.


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## TravelTime (May 11, 2019)

MrockStar said:


> Yes, 8 hrs or less drive is important. Our lake cottage/retirement home is 2.5 hours from our current home and kids home town. They will be spending memorial day weekend with us up there. "hope for nice weather"



I have read that in the ideal work, you would want your second home to be within a 2 hour drive to get optimal usage.


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## am1 (May 11, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Technically it only counts if you sell and have a real loss. Paper gains and paper losses do not count. VacationForever is correct.



I am always going to disagree.  It mat not sting as much but if you would have sold you would have locked in the gain avoided the loss.  I feel the same about casinos.


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## TravelTime (May 11, 2019)

am1 said:


> I am always going to disagree.  It mat not sting as much but if you would have sold you would have locked in the gain avoided the loss.  I feel the same about casinos.



Exactly, you need to sell for it to be a real gain or loss. Otherwise it is Monopoly money.


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## am1 (May 11, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Exactly, you need to sell for it to be a real gain or loss. Otherwise it is Monopoly money.



If thinking that way makes people feel better.  I am sure day traders do not feel that way.  Feel free to send over some monopoly money.


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## TravelTime (May 11, 2019)

am1 said:


> If thinking that way makes people feel better.  I am sure day traders do not feel that way.  Feel free to send over some monopoly money.



Ha? I am totally confused by your comments. I wonder if we are miscommunicating given this is all written.

Let's say bought $100,000 in stock. Over a year's time it varies from being worth $80,000 to $120,000. On any given day, you will have a paper gain or loss.

Then you decide to sell because the market crashed. On the day you sell, it is worth less than ever, only $70,000. You sell anyway because you fear the market will not recover. Your real loss is $30,000.

On the other hand, if you had sold when it was $120,000, you would have a real taxable gain of $20,000.

This is simplifying things quite a bit to illustrate the point.

Otherwise stock is just funny money until you sell.


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## WinniWoman (May 11, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Here's what I mean: https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sa...55,-82.42836,28.097423,-82.897339_rect/10_zm/
> 
> There's a lot of that throughout Florida, and in our neck o the swamp.  You can do Florida on the cheap.  We would be just fine with something like that on our owned lot, on water to the Bay and Gulf, in a quiet neighborhood.
> 
> I can't find it now, but when I was looking in March, I found a whole community of brand new ones like this for under $20K.



But that one is on leased land and not a 55+ community. I would be concerned with rif raf even though they do criminal background checks.

On your own lot, sure. But it looks like a strong wind would blow it away.


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## rapmarks (May 11, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> But that one is on leased land and not a 55+ community. I would be concerned with rif raf even though they do criminal background checks.
> 
> On your own lot, sure. But it looks like a strong wind would blow it away.


Obviously the place did not retain its value.


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## OldGuy (May 11, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> But that one is on leased land and not a 55+ community. I would be concerned with rif raf even though they do criminal background checks.
> 
> On your own lot, sure. But it looks like a strong wind would blow it away.



Yup.

Exactly what I said before, that in March I saw many of these nice manufactured homes for under $20K online, and put one our own lot, with no HOA or lot rent, and on water with bay and Gulf access (and, it was the finding of such a lot that led to my search), something like that would be just fine for us.  The lot I found was actually on a little street that dead-ended at one of the major waterway creeks in our area, and where we had looked at a Homepath foreclosure a few years back, and on the other side of the little canal is a sizable manufactured home park, with docks/slips on the same creek.

But, along your thinking, what prompted that week of searching was a listing for a small, older manufactured home, on a bay-to-Gulf canal where the lot rent was $600, and, we saw that in North Fort Myers 25 years ago, and said No then and now.

As far as the wind blowing, we have dozens of these manufactured home parks, and some have been there 40 years, maybe more, through Charley and Irma, and who knows what other ones.  knock on wood


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## am1 (May 11, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Ha? I am totally confused by your comments. I wonder if we are miscommunicating given this is all written.
> 
> Let's say bought $100,000 in stock. Over a year's time it varies from being worth $80,000 to $120,000. On any given day, you will have a paper gain or loss.
> 
> ...



You lost 30k out of pocket but from the peak 50k that difference of 20k is not Monopoly money at least not for me.  I prefer real estate as the gains/losses are smoother and one really does not know until they sell.


----------



## rapmarks (May 11, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> But that one is on leased land and not a 55+ community. I would be concerned with rif raf even though they do criminal background checks.
> 
> On your own lot, sure. But it looks like a strong wind would blow it away.


When they are on leased land they are hard to sell.
My aunt had a nice mobile home in Tucson.  Her Park was 55 and over and the law changed and it was no longer restricted.  As older people moved on, a variety of people moved in.   It got really bad, police were in the park a lot.  When she moved to assisted living, she eventually got four thousand dollars for her place.  So one persons opportunity is another persons loss.


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## TravelTime (May 11, 2019)

am1 said:


> You lost 30k out of pocket but from the peak 50k that difference of 20k is not Monopoly money at least not for me.  I prefer real estate as the gains/losses are smoother and one really does not know until they sell.



It is not Monopoly money if you sell for a profit. I am not debating that. The point is you need to sell before it is real money and then pay taxes on the gains. It is false to assume your true net worth equals your unsold stock value. At any time, you can lose it all.

Real estate is the same way. It is very volatile in the SF Bay Area where I live. In any given month, the value of my properties can swing by $100K or more. My gain or loss is only calculated when I sell. Then it becomes real money or a real loss.


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## OldGuy (May 11, 2019)

When my wife and I first started looking for our Florida retirement home, we couldn't get past the front gates.


- - - - - -

Real estate can be an investment, and it can be the opposite.

The loan that was foreclosed on our first house was $165K, and we bought the house for $45K.  The previous owner lost whatever they had in it, and the lender lost even more.


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## OldGuy (May 12, 2019)

When it comes to being in Florida all Winter long, in one of the more beautiful places, an area that attracts people from all over the world, and listening to those endless reports of horrible storms and freezing cold up north, that alone, not what we are spending that time in, is the major reason we are there.  Although there is probably some minimum standard that my wife would accept, we now absolutely love the little houses she first said, "I could not spend three months in this!!!"

Well, yes she/we can, and absolutely love it . . . and hundreds of thousands of Snowbirds spend all Winter in a lot less, and they are absolutely ecstatic about it, too.

If you can, why would you not?


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## bizaro86 (May 12, 2019)

am1 said:


> You lost 30k out of pocket but from the peak 50k that difference of 20k is not Monopoly money at least not for me.  I prefer real estate as the gains/losses are smoother and one really does not know until they sell.



Just because you don't precisely know the value of your embedded gain or loss doesn't make it not a real gain or loss. Real estate moves in price, sometimes dramatically, just like stocks. You just can't check the prices online daily. 

I am looking at condos in a building here for a rental. Two units that should have identical value (similar view, floor, parking, finishes) in the same building and one sold for $163k and one sold for $175k. The sales were less than two weeks apart.

IMO that is a stock-market like fluctuation in value in the short term.


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## OldGuy (May 12, 2019)

bizaro86 said:


> I am looking at condos in a building here for a rental. Two units that should have identical value (similar view, floor, parking, finishes) in the same building and one sold for $163k and one sold for $175k. The sales were less than two weeks apart.
> 
> IMO that is a stock-market like fluctuation in value in the short term.



IMO, those selling prices are close enough to not cause any alarm, at least to me, and I look at selling prices around us at least once a week.

If the very-similar house on one side of us sold for $179K, which it did, and on the other side of us for, say, even $199K, I would even consider those close enough to set the market at somewhere around those prices.

The difference could easily be explained by the motivation of the sellers and buyers, and abilities of the agent(s).


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## bizaro86 (May 13, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> IMO, those selling prices are close enough to not cause any alarm, at least to me, and I look at selling prices around us at least once a week.
> 
> If the very-similar house on one side of us sold for $179K, which it did, and on the other side of us for, say, even $199K, I would even consider those close enough to set the market at somewhere around those prices.
> 
> The difference could easily be explained by the motivation of the sellers and buyers, and abilities of the agent(s).



Not alarmed, just pointing out that real estate prices are also subject to random short term wiggles that aren't necessarily controllable, just like the stock market.


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## OldGuy (May 13, 2019)

Nothing wrong with random, short-term wiggles.


- - - - - -
In our neck 'o the swamp, it would not be unusual for selling prices on March 15 to be higher than on April 1, for instance.


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## rapmarks (May 13, 2019)

Returned to northern house last week, and today brought a load of laundry downstairs to wash.  Opened the door of front loading machine and water poured out.  Tried to finish the cycle so it would drain out, but nothing happens. Very upset because I sure didn’t run an empty cycle when I left, and stop it in the middle.


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## TravelTime (May 13, 2019)

bizaro86 said:


> Just because you don't precisely know the value of your embedded gain or loss doesn't make it not a real gain or loss. Real estate moves in price, sometimes dramatically, just like stocks. You just can't check the prices online daily.
> 
> I am looking at condos in a building here for a rental. Two units that should have identical value (similar view, floor, parking, finishes) in the same building and one sold for $163k and one sold for $175k. The sales were less than two weeks apart.
> 
> IMO that is a stock-market like fluctuation in value in the short term.



I am not sure why I am debating this since I would love for my paper gains to all be real without selling anything.  And also I would prefer to believe all my paper losses are NOT real as long as I wait it out. Sometimes paper gains/losses = real gains/losses and sometimes they do not.


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## WinniWoman (May 13, 2019)

rapmarks said:


> Returned to northern house last week, and today brought a load of laundry downstairs to wash.  Opened the door of front loading machine and water poured out.  Tried to finish the cycle so it would drain out, but nothing happens. Very upset because I sure didn’t run an empty cycle when I left, and stop it in the middle.



UGH! I don't know what that problem is but I know I would be upset! That's the thing with 2 houses- 2 problems.


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## am1 (May 13, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> I am not sure why I am debating this since I would love for my paper gains to all be real without selling anything.  And also I would prefer to believe all my paper losses are NOT real as long as I wait it out. Sometimes paper gains/losses = real gains/losses and sometimes they do not.



How much do paper losses/gains have to be to affect you?  I am sure people that bought into apple, msft and others early do not consider their gains paper gains even if they have never sold.  What about stocks that have lost a large part of their value?  Are those still only paper losses?


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## rapmarks (May 13, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> UGH! I don't know what that problem is but I know I would be upset! That's the thing with 2 houses- 2 problems.


Or someone using my wash machine and leaving with it on, who knows how many months ago


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## TravelTime (May 13, 2019)

am1 said:


> How much do paper losses/gains have to be to affect you?  I am sure people that bought into apple, msft and others early do not consider their gains paper gains even if they have never sold.  What about stocks that have lost a large part of their value?  Are those still only paper losses?



We have a lot of stock (including early stock from Apple) and a lot of real estate. I consider it all paper gains until we sell. However I do calculate our current net work based on today's prices since if I sold today, I would lock in those gains. However our net worth can change by millions from month to month. Last year we were up and down $2 million in the same year.


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## am1 (May 13, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> We have a lot of stock (including early stock from Apple) and a lot of real estate. I consider it all paper gains until we sell. However I do calculate our current net work based on today's prices since if I sold today, I would lock in those gains. However our net worth can change by millions from month to month. Last year we were up and down $2 million in the same year.



Congrats.  My point is that one can lock in their stock gains/losses at anytime it is hard to consider them paper loses/gains.  A "paper" gain or a real gain is the same to me. Apparently others feel differently.  Possibly brokers use these terms to make clients feel better about losses.


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## TravelTime (May 13, 2019)

am1 said:


> Congrats.  My point is that one can lock in their stock gains/losses at anytime it is hard to consider them paper loses/gains.  A "paper" gain or a real gain is the same to me. Apparently others feel differently.  Possibly brokers use these terms to make clients feel better about losses.



This is not a feel good term. It is an accounting term. Today the market crashed. If I sold yesterday, I would have a lot more real money than if I sold today. The opposite of what you are saying is true. Paper gains make people feel good but we never know the real gain until we sell. Paper losses are not real either unless you sell at loss. They make people feel bad even if they do not sell anything. You can calculate net worth based on estimated asset value which would include either a paper gain or paper loss based on today's value. But no one knows if the gain or loss will be there past the current moment. Hence the accounting term of paper gain/loss.


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## Brett (May 13, 2019)

am1 said:


> Congrats.  My point is that one can lock in their stock gains/losses at anytime it is hard to consider them paper loses/gains.  A "paper" gain or a real gain is the same to me. Apparently others feel differently.  Possibly brokers use these terms to make clients feel better about losses.



possibly - but for me (and many others) unrealized "paper" gains are quite different than a gain where the asset has been sold


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## OldGuy (May 13, 2019)

Unrealized gain has always been a source of pride for those playing the stock market.  

Like Wow!, the Dow went up____ today!!!

So?

Or, Ouch, the Dow went down ____ today.

So?


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