# United sued over ff changes



## Carolinian (May 27, 2012)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busin...-over-perk-reduction-20120525,0,6676090.story

This is a class action, so I suspect the lawyers will just carry this to the point that they can shake down UA for a massive legal fee, and then get some meaningless trinket for the class and no relief on the actual problem.  It seems SOP for class action lawyers to sell their clients down the river, as we saw with the RCI class action cases.


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## dougp26364 (May 27, 2012)

What are you talking about? I received an offer for the grand sum of $10 from the RCI lawsuit. Of course, I've done better on my own, saving the RCI yearly membership fee by refusing to participate other than the forced participation via our HGVC ownership.

A class action lawuit has also potentially won me about the same amount from the iPhone 4 antenna issue. 

Heck, if they keep this up, pretty soon it will be like having my old weekly allowance back that my parents use to pay me. 

Class actions are a joke. They accompish nothing for the class and the business just keeps churning on. 

My bet is everyone with a UAL FF account will recieve 5,000 extra miles.


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## dougp26364 (May 27, 2012)

OK, just read the small article. It doesn't say class action. I just says a million miler is suing because his benefits have been reduced. 

He claims to have spent "hundredes of thousands" of dollars to attain this status. IMHO, maybe he should go after the educational system. Anyone who spends "hundredes of thousands" of dollars to attain something that has the fine print that the program can be changed at the issuers discreation can't be all that bright. Seems to me the educational system cheated him somewhere along the line by not teaching common sense. George apparently has more money that brains. 

I'm with UAL on this one. This case is without merit and should be tossed out of court quickly.


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## Carolinian (May 27, 2012)

There was some additional info posted on FlyerTalk that it is a class action, even though that fact is not mentioned in this short article.

The interesting question is if this went to trial (which as a class action, of course it won't), whether the court allows UA's provision that purports to allow it to change any term and condition of the program at will to stand or whether it is struck down as being an unfair business practice.


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## dougp26364 (May 27, 2012)

Carolinian said:


> There was some additional info posted on FlyerTalk that it is a class action, even though that fact is not mentioned in this short article.
> 
> The interesting question is if this went to trial (which as a class action, of course it won't), whether the court allows UA's provision that purports to allow it to change any term and condition of the program at will to stand or whether it is struck down as being an unfair business practice.



FF programs are voluntary. Flyers do not have to participate in them. There is no cost to join them and you can opt out anytime you choose. I do not see this as any sort of contract. It may be an inticement to fly a particular airline but, there are no guarentee's made that I have ever read.

Should this succeed, it will forever change, and probably ruin, all FF programs for the future. The cost will become greater than the incentive for the airlines to offer such programs.


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## BocaBum99 (May 27, 2012)

I am almost a 1M miler on United.  I have 998,300 actual flight miles.  I am actually thrilled because United combined my Continental miles in the merge and I benefited greatly.  Can't wait for Premier Gold features for life.  Or, when they decide to change the program again.  After ignoring FF programs for almost 10 years, I am now interested again.


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## Carolinian (May 27, 2012)

BocaBum99 said:


> I am almost a 1M miler on United.  I have 998,300 actual flight miles.  I am actually thrilled because United combined my Continental miles in the merge and I benefited greatly.  Can't wait for Premier Gold features for life.  Or, when they decide to change the program again.  After ignoring FF programs for almost 10 years, I am now interested again.



Well, the big area that Golds got whacked was in bonus miles, which used to be 100% and have now been reduced to 50%.  AA and DL are still 100% and US may be too (I am not certain about that one).  The ability to get complimentary upgrades to First has also been degraded, although that happened after I bailed to AA, so I don't know the details.

As an AA Plat (equivalent to UA gold), I get the 100% bonus miles on flights, great upgrades (100% on domestic legs so far plus even a BA World Traveler Plus comp upgrade TATL) plus the early boarding, extra luggage, lounge access, etc.  While CO was okay, AA is now making me feel the love almost as much as NW used to!  I thought I would hate transfering at Heathrow, but I have found even that is great when you are sitting in the wonderful BA Galleries lounges.  I am glad that UA/CO made me take a look at other options when they downgraded their ff program.

BTW, AA is comping elites from UA these days, something they normally don't do.


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## Carolinian (May 27, 2012)

dougp26364 said:


> FF programs are voluntary. Flyers do not have to participate in them. There is no cost to join them and you can opt out anytime you choose. I do not see this as any sort of contract. It may be an inticement to fly a particular airline but, there are no guarentee's made that I have ever read.
> 
> Should this succeed, it will forever change, and probably ruin, all FF programs for the future. The cost will become greater than the incentive for the airlines to offer such programs.



ff programs are major profit centers for all airlines.  Look at the miles they sell banks, rental car companies, hotels, etc.  They are not going to give up that revenue stream.  If they trash their ff program too much and members quit caring about earning miles, they screw their bottom line because that market will shrink on them.


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## pacodemountainside (May 27, 2012)

If lawyers can win this one, then us Wyndham VIPs need to  retain to go after our  eliminated/changed  benefits. 

Since class action attorneys generally front money, they must smell blood some where!


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## BocaBum99 (May 27, 2012)

pacodemountainside said:


> If lawyers can win this one, then us Wyndham VIPs need to  retain to go after our  eliminated/changed  benefits.
> 
> Since class action attorneys generally front money, they must smell blood some where!



If I could create cold fusion, I could solve the energy needs of the planet forever.  I have a better chance at creating cold fusion than a class action law suit has in delivering meaningful compensation to United members.

I don't know what is wrong with people in this country.  Don't they realize that these promises were never going to be honored?   If people got more realistic, there wouldn't be as many disputes.

What these million milers got is bonuses.  They are still getting bonuses.  If they don't like the bonuses, go somewhere else.  That is what I did for 10 years.  Now, the bonuses are getting interesting and I'll take advantage of them for as long as they are there.  Once they are no longer interesting, I'll move on again.  

We really need to teach our children more about being a citizen in a free market economy.  I think we fail our kids in that area.


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## BocaBum99 (May 27, 2012)

dougp26364 said:


> What are you talking about? I received an offer for the grand sum of $10 from the RCI lawsuit. Of course, I've done better on my own, saving the RCI yearly membership fee by refusing to participate other than the forced participation via our HGVC ownership.



I was offered $12.  Wonder why I was offered so much more than you?


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## dougp26364 (May 27, 2012)

BocaBum99 said:


> I was offered $12.  Wonder why I was offered so much more than you?



Because I'm no longer a member of RCI. I acted like a consumer should in a free market society. I voted with my wallet and my feet rather than with a lawyer in a class action lawsuit. RCI should thank me. I tossed my post card in the mail and deleted the E-mail. I'll keep my membership fee's until RCI becomes something I think worth using.


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## x3 skier (May 28, 2012)

Joined FF programs when they first started back in the Middle Ages. I have gotten plenty of free trips to Europe over the years and if the programs go down the tubes, I will miss them but enjoyed the perks. I still have almost 1.5MM left in various accounts I will use some way like my already booked Biz Class to LHR in Oct. 

Suing because something that was included for "free" changes is the height of idiocy. I hope they get zero. Sometimes I wish the USA legal system was like the British system where the loser pays the costs. OTOH, that might prevent legitimate complaints (not like this one) from being resolved.

Cheers


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## dougp26364 (May 28, 2012)

x3 skier said:


> Joined FF programs when they first started back in the Middle Ages. I have gotten plenty of free trips to Europe over the years and if the programs go down the tubes, I will miss them but enjoyed the perks. I still have almost 1.5MM left in various accounts I will use some way like my already booked Biz Class to LHR in Oct.
> 
> Suing because something that was included for "free" changes is the height of idiocy. I hope they get zero. Sometimes I wish the USA legal system was like the British system where the loser pays the costs. OTOH, that might prevent legitimate complaints (not like this one) from being resolved.
> 
> Cheers



Voting with your feet is the best way to send a message. Delta made changes to their FF program that I don't like. Namely, it's nearly impossible to get a seat for 25,000 miles. So we've been flying United instead.

Marriott has made changes to their Marriott Rewards program that we didn't like. So, we've voted with our feet and aren't staying nearly as often at Marriott hotels, aren't trying to accumulate Marriott Rewards points by using that particular credit card and, have essentially voted with our feet. 

The perks are nice. The perks can build loyalty and, when the perks go away, so can the loyalty. Filing a class action because you're not getting what you once were is stupid at best. There are other airlines, fly them if you believe their programs are better or, don't fly at all. Heck, we started looking at more drive to destinations just for that very reason.


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## mav (May 28, 2012)

I am curious, what perks were changed with Marriott? I have just in the past 9 months gotten the Marriott Chase card.


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## dougp26364 (May 28, 2012)

mav said:


> I am curious, what perks were changed with Marriott? I have just in the past 9 months gotten the Marriott Chase card.



They continue to change the hotel catagories, increasing the number of points required per night/week. The last change was to offer 5 night vs 7 night stays in the package plans. You can still get 7 night packages but they cost more.

Basically, the continue to devalue the points and have done so to a point we prefer to collect FF miles instead. At least that's what we're doing for now.


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## mav (May 29, 2012)

*To dougp*

To: dougp26364

   Thank you. Good to know. I must say I am enjoying the mega bonus's


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## Carolinian (May 29, 2012)

x3 skier said:


> Joined FF programs when they first started back in the Middle Ages. I have gotten plenty of free trips to Europe over the years and if the programs go down the tubes, I will miss them but enjoyed the perks. I still have almost 1.5MM left in various accounts I will use some way like my already booked Biz Class to LHR in Oct.
> 
> Suing because something that was included for "free" changes is the height of idiocy. I hope they get zero. Sometimes I wish the USA legal system was like the British system where the loser pays the costs. OTOH, that might prevent legitimate complaints (not like this one) from being resolved.
> 
> Cheers



Many flyers pay more to fly a particular airline due to ff program, so it is part of the consideration they get for the transaction.  At least that argument can be made in court.  Years ago, I used to regularly pay $20-50 more on DL for trips to Europe than I would have paid on NW because of what I got in DL's ff program.  I have kicked myself for not exploring what NW offered at the time, as they actually had a better ff program as well as consistently cheaper flights.  DL got that extra money out of me solely due to what they offered in their ff program.


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## Carolinian (May 29, 2012)

I agree totally, and have done so several times.

Back in the Rob Borden period, DL made some really negative changes to their ff program.  I joined the consumer pushback in www.saveskymiles.com , wore my parachuteman buttons on flights, handed out the ''boarding cards'' to fellow passengers, contributed on the ads in US Today, etc. but at the close of the year, DL was not budging and I did not want to buy tickets in their watered down program, so I took a look at options.  That is when I discovered what a gem NW was, the best ff program I have ever been in.  I comped my status to NW, and even when DL management finally caved, fired Borden, and reversed his changes, I stayed at NW.  When DL took over NW, I did not have a good feeling about DL, so I comped over to CO, which was okay but a significant comedown from NW.  When UA merged with CO, I smelled a rat early enought to start looking around again, and did a challenge to AA.  My reason for not looking at AA before was I really do not like Heathrow and that is their main European gateway, but what I have discovered is that BA has really great lounges at Heathrow, which I can access as an AA Plat, and sitting in the BA Galleries lounge, I can handle Hearhrow just fine.  If Doug Parker of US succeeds in his quest to take over AA, then I am sure it would go to heck in a handbasket, and if that is the case, I may just fly price after that and forget ff programs.

One problem with switching is that I would be a million miler if they were all on the same airline.  My biggest chunk is on DL.




dougp26364 said:


> Voting with your feet is the best way to send a message. Delta made changes to their FF program that I don't like. Namely, it's nearly impossible to get a seat for 25,000 miles. So we've been flying United instead.
> 
> Marriott has made changes to their Marriott Rewards program that we didn't like. So, we've voted with our feet and aren't staying nearly as often at Marriott hotels, aren't trying to accumulate Marriott Rewards points by using that particular credit card and, have essentially voted with our feet.
> 
> The perks are nice. The perks can build loyalty and, when the perks go away, so can the loyalty. Filing a class action because you're not getting what you once were is stupid at best. There are other airlines, fly them if you believe their programs are better or, don't fly at all. Heck, we started looking at more drive to destinations just for that very reason.


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## BocaBum99 (May 29, 2012)

Carolinian said:


> Many flyers pay more to fly a particular airline due to ff program, so it is part of the consideration they get for the transaction.  At least that argument can be made in court.  Years ago, I used to regularly pay $20-50 more on DL for trips to Europe than I would have paid on NW because of what I got in DL's ff program.  I have kicked myself for not exploring what NW offered at the time, as they actually had a better ff program as well as consistently cheaper flights.  DL got that extra money out of me solely due to what they offered in their ff program.



Paying $20-50 per flight more for a trip to Europe just for a ff program was the bet you made and you lost.  Get over it.   You made it of your own free will.  DL had the right to change their program, they changed it as they rightfully can and you keep whining about it for decades.    

It is total lunacy to claim that part of your airfare was consideration for the frequent flier program.  The frequent flier program is provided at no additional cost to flyers.  Therefore, the consideration is ZERO.   If you personally allocated mentally $20-50 per flight to the ff program, that was your error in accounting.


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## Hobo1 (May 29, 2012)

*Huh?*



Carolinian said:


> Many flyers pay more to fly a particular airline due to ff program, so it is part of the consideration they get for the transaction.  At least that argument can be made in court.  Years ago, I used to regularly pay $20-50 more on DL for trips to Europe than I would have paid on NW because of what I got in DL's ff program.



That makes as much sense as driving ten miles to save five cents on the price of a gallon of gas. The airlines value the miles they award at a fraction of one percent. Why would anyone pay a premium for a product that the seller places little or no value on? Only a moron with a law degree would make that argument before the court.  The "condsideration" is a ticket for transportation from one point to another. There is nothing in the purchase agreement that addresses "perks" such as ff miles. The airlines state that their ff progams can be changed or terminated at their will and their is no compensation for any changes to or the termination of the ff program.

I'm not a fan of UA but in this case I agree with them, the lawsuit has no merit. And if USA should merge with AA the AA program will crash and burn.


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## x3 skier (May 29, 2012)

You can argue anything you want in court. If it is a stupid argument like the one against UA, it gets dismissed. All this guy is doing is trying legal blackmail and I hope he and his shyster get canned. 

FF programs are changing and whining about what used to be is an excercise in futility. :deadhorse: 

Cheers


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## MuranoJo (May 29, 2012)

What's true about these ff programs is that people *will* pay more to build award status on a particular airline--or, more likely, their employers will pay more.

It was no secret in our company that road warriors would select an airline or hotel based on loyalty programs, regardless of cost. Finally someone up the flagpole wised up and published alerts to management when an employee passed over a less expensive option without a good reason.  'Good reason' is subjective, so I'm sure there's still a lot of abuse.


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## gnorth16 (May 30, 2012)

muranojo said:


> What's true about these ff programs is that people *will* pay more to build award status on a particular airline--or, more likely, their employers will pay more.
> 
> It was no secret in our company that road warriors would select an airline or hotel based on loyalty programs, regardless of cost. Finally someone up the flagpole wised up and published alerts to management when an employee passed over a less expensive option without a good reason.  'Good reason' is subjective, so I'm sure there's still a lot of abuse.



I'm so sick of having the George Costanza wallet with all of the loyalty cards in it.  Most got tossed and now I shop for the best price.  Even with Air Canada (Star alliance), as long as you have an aeroplan number, the choice is a $15 discount or full points.  I always take the cash discount! 

After I stopped using many loyalty programs, I donated the points to charities.  I loved the Alaska Airlines CC, but they don't service Winnipeg, so I changed cards and donated the leftover points.  I think I had five or six different hotel chains with two thirds of a free night stay. Why bother!


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## T_R_Oglodyte (May 30, 2012)

It's a pretty straightforward economic calculation for me. 

Being a frequent flyer means that in coach I can select seats that are either exit row or bulkhead.  The difference in room is enough to allow me to use my laptop to get work done while I'm flying.  That makes that aisle or bulkhead seat worth $200 to $300 more on a typical flight.  

If I maintain frequent flyer status I get first shot at reserving those seats, and I don't pay a premium for them.  It's a no-brainer for me to find an airline that best fits my needs and maintain elite status.  As long as the fares are competitive, it makes sense for me to stick with a preferred carrier.  (In my case that's Alaska Air.)


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## dougp26364 (May 30, 2012)

gnorth16 said:


> I'm so sick of having the George Costanza wallet with all of the loyalty cards in it.  Most got tossed and now I shop for the best price.  Even with Air Canada (Star alliance), as long as you have an aeroplan number, the choice is a $15 discount or full points.  I always take the cash discount!
> 
> After I stopped using many loyalty programs, I donated the points to charities.  I loved the Alaska Airlines CC, but they don't service Winnipeg, so I changed cards and donated the leftover points.  I think I had five or six different hotel chains with two thirds of a free night stay. Why bother!



We select a couple that we'll use and stick with those. Sometimes we'll change cards based on our preferences and usage patterns. I have about three cards I'm getting ready to cancel, our Marriott Rewards card, Citi Hilton Card, and Diners Club. Right now we're using our UAL Premier, UAL Explorer and Frontier Airlines cards. The UAL explorer gets us 1 checked bag per passenger free while the premier card gets us double miles on many of our everyday purchases.


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## LisaRex (May 30, 2012)

Lawsuit is a joke.  Even more so if the miles he earned were paid for by his company.  

I know that we had many managers that "paid" hundreds of dollars (via company money, of course) more to fly Delta for no other reason than to pad their FF accounts.  Now that CVG has been de-hubbed, and the company has announced huge job reductions, suddenly the same managers are bargain hunters!


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## Carolinian (May 31, 2012)

BocaBum99 said:


> Paying $20-50 per flight more for a trip to Europe just for a ff program was the bet you made and you lost.  Get over it.   You made it of your own free will.  DL had the right to change their program, they changed it as they rightfully can and you keep whining about it for decades.
> 
> It is total lunacy to claim that part of your airfare was consideration for the frequent flier program.  The frequent flier program is provided at no additional cost to flyers.  Therefore, the consideration is ZERO.   If you personally allocated mentally $20-50 per flight to the ff program, that was your error in accounting.



Hardly a ''bet made and lost''.  A trip to Europe generates ~10K ff miles as a peon, but as a DL gold medallion, that doubled to ~20K miles.  In those days, one could easily get 2 cents per mile value for them and I did on my redemptions.  That extra 10K miles was thus worth about $200.  The Borden changes whacked the earning side, and so did not interfere with my redemptions.  I was able to burn all of my DL earned miles before the later changes that whacked the redemption side.

Because I had not studied NW or learned about how to comp status where I could have been earning double miles there as well, I lost other benefits.  NW had a much better upgrade percentage to first class on the domestic legs for elites than DL did, and NW kept free booze in coach on the TATL legs as long as they were flying while DL eliminated it even before I bailed out of DL.

Where DL took me to the cleaners was on the miles I earned on NW that I was not able to burn in time and got milejacked into DL SkyPiles, the Zimbabwe dollars of the sky.  By that time, there were severe redemption problems at DL.  I have avoided buying tickets on DL since.

When an airline screws its elite ff members, then what had been a loyalty program generates lots of ''negative loyalty'' i.e. avoidance.  Other airlines who play it smart can grab those disgruntled customers, like AA is now doing on a large scale since UA degraded its program.  Elite ff members tend to be business travellers who buy the high priced tickets, so running such customers away is dumb on the part of airline beancounters.


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## BocaBum99 (May 31, 2012)

Carolinian said:


> Hardly a ''bet made and lost''.  A trip to Europe generates ~10K ff miles as a peon, but as a DL gold medallion, that doubled to ~20K miles.  In those days, one could easily get 2 cents per mile value for them and I did on my redemptions.  That extra 10K miles was thus worth about $200.  The Borden changes whacked the earning side, and so did not interfere with my redemptions.  I was able to burn all of my DL earned miles before the later changes that whacked the redemption side.
> 
> Because I had not studied NW or learned about how to comp status where I could have been earning double miles there as well, I lost other benefits.  NW had a much better upgrade percentage to first class on the domestic legs for elites than DL did, and NW kept free booze in coach on the TATL legs as long as they were flying while DL eliminated it even before I bailed out of DL.
> 
> ...



Then you should stop whining after all these years.  You took advantage of loopholes in the system and Delta appropriately fixed them.  That is what good business management does.  

If an airline screws over its elite ff members, that's their business decision.  Stupid, but the alternative of losing money was probably worse.


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## Ken555 (May 31, 2012)

BocaBum99 said:


> Then you should stop whining after all these years.  You took advantage of loopholes in the system and Delta appropriately fixed them.  That is what good business management does.
> 
> If an airline screws over its elite ff members, that's their business decision.  Stupid, but the alternative of losing money was probably worse.



"Good business" does not push loyal customers away. It remains to be seen if Delta's changes over the recent years will help, or hinder, their bottom line. I also don't think you can classify what these travelers do with regard to the ffp as 'loopholes' since its an integral part of how they were marketed and functioned as benefits of elite status. 

As with any loyalty program, there are certain benefits which some value more than others. However, I suspect most will agree that offering double miles for elites would be popular amongst all business travelers, and effectively reducing their earned miles by half would generate a negative reaction. I don't consider this whining by any means...in fact, I consider threads like this another warning of what any loyalty program may do to us at any time, and without notice. It is, of course, one reason why some prefer cash back credit cards rather than those that provide airline miles, etc.


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## Carolinian (May 31, 2012)

When you run off high profit customers, which is what ff elites mostly are, this is not exactly smart business.  What do you replace them with?  Backpackers flying on the cheapest fare?

But don't mind Boca.  He is the most anti-consumer guy on these boards.  To him the company is always right.

This thread is a good example of why it is bad business to piss off your high volume / high fare elite ff customers if you are an airline:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unit...-airline-ua-would-have-normally-received.html




Ken555 said:


> "Good business" does not push loyal customers away. It remains to be seen if Delta's changes over the recent years will help, or hinder, their bottom line. I also don't think you can classify what these travelers do with regard to the ffp as 'loopholes' since its an integral part of how they were marketed and functioned as benefits of elite status.
> 
> As with any loyalty program, there are certain benefits which some value more than others. However, I suspect most will agree that offering double miles for elites would be popular amongst all business travelers, and effectively reducing their earned miles by half would generate a negative reaction. I don't consider this whining by any means...in fact, I consider threads like this another warning of what any loyalty program may do to us at any time, and without notice. It is, of course, one reason why some prefer cash back credit cards rather than those that provide airline miles, etc.


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