# Scientists Say Turin Shroud Image Created by UltraViolet Lasers



## MULTIZ321 (Dec 22, 2011)

Scientists Say Turin Shroud Image Created by UltraViolet Lasers - by Eric Pheiffer/ The SideShow/ Yahoo!News


Richard


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## derb (Dec 22, 2011)

For those who might be interested, there is a replica of the shroud on permanent display in a church in Gibraltar.


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 22, 2011)

Good article.  National Geographic studied the image and was baffled as well. 

I have watched specials on the History Channel, National Geographic, and TBN.  They all seem to come to the same conclusion: no technology existed in the history of the shroud that could have made that image.  

There are drawings of people holding the shroud many centuries ago, so it's not from recent years.  It has a recorded history of many centuries.  

It's a fascinating piece of cloth.  Watch any of the specials on the various channels and see if it doesn't make you wonder how in the world that image was imposed on the fabric.  Amazing.  There are forensic experts who also say this person was definitely crucified.


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## persia (Dec 22, 2011)

Drat, they were told to keep the lasers hidden until the 22nd Century.


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## myoakley (Dec 22, 2011)

According to the last sentence of the article, carbon-dating would date the shroud to the Middle Ages.  However, it does not mention the fact that the shroud was in a fire (the edges are scorched), and this fact invalidates the ability of the test to accurately determine its age.  IMO, the Shroud of Turin is a miracle left to us as a witness to faith.


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## Passepartout (Dec 22, 2011)

I dare ya to keep THIS thread on a scientific footing.

Jim


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 22, 2011)

Passepartout said:


> I dare ya to keep THIS thread on a scientific footing.
> 
> Jim



:rofl: :hysterical:


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 22, 2011)

I will keep it scientific.  The sample used for the carbon dating was taken from the edge of the cloth, and the shroud's edge was repaired somewhere around the 13th century with a similar weave to the original.  It's different enough under a microscope to prove that the carbon dating was skewed by the new threads.  

Of course someone would want the cloth repaired along the edges to keep it intact, if it frayed.  We don't know who commissioned the repairs, but we know where it was at that time.  There is a history of the cloth's viewing for centuries back.  That's also science and history.  

The National Geographic and History Channel shows about the shroud have been very interesting.


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## jme (Dec 22, 2011)

Passepartout said:


> I dare ya to keep THIS thread on a scientific footing.
> 
> Jim



who says realities of life only exist in the scientific realm? (you cannot address ANY subject without taking into account the total sum of knowledge, and you therefore cannot exclude other relevant facts.)  to the contrary, they do not, and there are little hints along the way, sometimes ignored in spite of the evidence.... p.s. my life has been an ongoing study of the sciences, beginning with biology and chemistry double majors, followed by a doctorate degree. Am I unscientific?  Hardly. (Merry Christmas!)


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## DeniseM (Dec 22, 2011)

A gentle reminder:



> *Avoid posting about* politics, *religion*, or contentious social issues
> Unless directly related to timesharing, *such discussions are prohibited in these forums, including TUG Lounge*. We've been down that road before, it was ugly, and we are not going there again.


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## Passepartout (Dec 22, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I will keep it scientific.  The sample used for the carbon dating was taken from the edge of the cloth, and the shroud's edge was repaired somewhere around the 13th century with a similar weave to the original.  It's different enough under a microscope to prove that the carbon dating was skewed by the new threads.



One would hope, then, that the owner of the shroud would want this issue put to rest by designating an area of the item that contains ONLY the original threads to be tested.

I maintain that the owners have nothing to gain by learning of it's true provenance and origin and age, and by disallowing testing, they are able to perpetuate their purported story surrounding it's origin.

That it has been repaired in the past- albeit some 500-600 years ago- negates the argument that it is of such importance that not even a single thread can be removed for testing. 

Test it and put the issue to rest. It's organic- do DNA testing as well. Perhaps even on the stains.

Jim


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 22, 2011)

The Vatican has the cloth, I believe.  I think they should take a portion from the middle of the cloth and test it.  

Watch the National Geographic and History Channel shows for perspective.  They rerun the shows about the Shroud during the holidays and at Easter. 

Please keep this scientific, so we can keep the thread open.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 22, 2011)

edited:  I keep realizing that everything i write is controversial and i don't want this thread closed because of me


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## Blues (Dec 22, 2011)

Hee hee.  I'll give odds on this thread being closed before Christmas  

On that note, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, everyone!

-Bob


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## chellej (Dec 22, 2011)

Years ago I heard a lecture given by a gentleman from Argonne National Lab who had participated in some of the scientific studies regarding the Shroud.  Goining in he was a non believer whose intent was to disprove the origin of the cloth but when all was said and done he came out of the study believing in the authenticity and origin.


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## easyrider (Dec 22, 2011)

This is from a different forum discussing the shroud today.
********************************************


“They concluded that the exact shade, texture and depth of the imprints could only be produced with the aid of ultraviolet lasers – technology that was clearly not available in medieval times.”

And: “…in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the report spells it out: ‘This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.’”

*********************************************************
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVXXZcN8RVI
At about 13 minutes the scientific proof is examined in this documentary. "The video is well done and brings to light a documented history of the Shroud which has not been published."
**********************************************************

Merry Christmas


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 22, 2011)

I have a problem with an item like this being held and controlled by the people that have the most to gain from its authenticity....

I have a living breathing half unicorn half leprechaun, i will only allow a select few to study it and will review all results before i allow them to be released...

Just seems to add questions to the authenticity to me...

plus..



> The shroud was first photographed in 1898, 5 years after the invention of the BOUTAN-CHAUFFOUR FLASH BULB - 1893
> 
> The first flash bulb was designed by Frenchman Chauffour for use by underwater photographer Louis Boutan. It contained magnesium inside a glass bulb filled with oxygen under pressure. A platinum wire heated by passing an electric current through it ignited the magnesium.
> 
> After checking wiki I found that magnesium lights produce harmful amount of UV light.


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## easyrider (Dec 22, 2011)

http://www.datingtheshroud.com/

This was posted today on a different forum.


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## Phydeaux (Dec 22, 2011)

Need proof? Open your eyes. Oh yeah, eyes were evolved through billions of years of cosmic dust.  

Please. 

Believing that _something_ developed from _nothing_ is suggestive that a 747 jet could be created from a tornado blowing through a junkyard scrap pile. But then again, where did the scrap pile come from?

There, no mention religXXX. Thus, hopefully remains open


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## Phydeaux (Dec 22, 2011)

Believers do not need _proof_. I am a believer in God, but do not believe the shroud is authentic. No *proof* is necessary.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 22, 2011)

Phydeaux said:


> Believers do not need _proof_. I am a believer in God, but do not believe the shroud is authentic. No *proof* is necessary.



I don't know if the shroud is truly authentic or not, but i don't believe we can really tie it to one specific person from centuries ago....thousands of people were crucified during that time frame

If anything, its just an old sheet with a burned image on it...and since we need to stay away from specific topics here....that IS all it is for the sake of this forum


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## Phydeaux (Dec 22, 2011)

Research it. There are ties to Leonardo da Vinci. Smart guy.

My disbelief stems from my understanding of the human anatomy; _where_ the hands on average anatomical averages rest when placed as in the shroud rendering, (lay down, try it) fact that gravity causes fluid to trace the path of gravitational pull (stains from the wrist flow proximal toward the elbow, whereas they should trace distal toward the elbow, unless up side down crucifixion)

I could go on, but this thread is as good as locked at this point,

Merry Christmas!

Believe. Believers don't need proof. Proof is in front of your eyes. Or, create a mitral valve for me, could you please? Or would that take several billion years of space big bang dust?


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## persia (Dec 23, 2011)

Maybe they were available and this whole "history" thing is a conspiracy to cover that fact up.

Or perhaps there are time travellers changing the past.  If the past that was there a year ago is different from the past we now know how could you tell?  

A quote from the TV show Doctor Who:

“Everyone’s memory is a mess. Life is a mess. Everyone’s got memories of a holiday they couldn’t have been on, or a party they never went to, or met someone for the first time and felt like they’ve known them all their lives. Time is being rewritten around us, every day. People think their memories are bad, but their memories are fine. The past is really like that.” 

- The Doctor 




easyrider said:


> This is from a different forum discussing the shroud today.
> ********************************************
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 23, 2011)

persia said:


> Maybe they were available and this whole "history" thing is a conspiracy to cover that fact up.
> 
> Or perhaps there are time travellers changing the past.  If the past that was there a year ago is different from the past we now know how could you tell?



With our limited understanding of Time, there is no 'Real' proof that it is linear instead of cyclical, its possible that the shroud was from a different time 'cycle'


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 23, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> With our limited understanding of Time, there is no 'Real' proof that it is linear instead of cyclical, its possible that the shroud was from a different time 'cycle'



If that's easier to believe for you, Ride.  

National Geographic and History Channel just present the facts.  It's very interesting to watch, and I know a few people who didn't believe in anything they could not see and touch, literally doubting Thomases, but no longer.  You don't even have to watch these shows with an open mind.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 23, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> If that's easier to believe for you, Ride.
> 
> National Geographic and History Channel just present the facts.  It's very interesting to watch, and I know a few people who didn't believe in anything they could not see and touch, literally doubting Thomases, but no longer.  You don't even have to watch these shows with an open mind.



Yup, i don't know if the Shroud is real or if it fraud, but i know that we have no evidence that it was ever used on any specific person and with the thousands upon thousands of people that WERE crucified during that time frame and assuming it is real and is an image of an actual person, used in the way guessed at.....That person could be ANYONE



> "Sadly, we have seen many claims spread in the Web made by journalist/bloggers that discuss the content of a paper they never read," lead researcher Paolo Di Lazzaro told me today in an email. "It is obvious that a serious scientific work cannot prove any supernatural action. We have shown that the most advanced technology available today is unable to replicate all the characteristics of the Shroud image. As a consequence, we may argue it appears unlikely a forger may have done this image with technologies available in the Middle Ages or earlier. The probability the Shroud is a medieval fake is really low. In this sense, the Shroud image is still a scientific challenge."


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## jme (Dec 23, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Yup, i don't know if the Shroud is real or if it fraud, but i know that we have no evidence that it was ever used on any specific person and with the thousands upon thousands of people that WERE crucified during that time frame and assuming it is real and is an image of an actual person, used in the way guessed at.....That person could be ANYONE



anyone who wore a crown of thorns, i guess


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 23, 2011)

jme said:


> anyone who wore a crown of thorns, i guess



Any of the thousands, according to historical reference


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## myoakley (Dec 23, 2011)

It amazes me the lengths that some will go to explain away the miraculous and the supernatural.  I am reminded of a trip 2 years ago to Fatima, Portugal, the site of 6 Marian apparitions in 1917.   I asked a tour guide how people explained the sun "dancing" in the sky if they ruled out its being a response to the 3 children's pleadings for a miracle in order for people to believe them.  The wild gyrations of the sun were witnessed by more than 75,000 people, were photographed, and published on the front page of Portuguese newspapers.  Her response, "It may have been a UFO!"


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## Passepartout (Dec 23, 2011)

The various TV shows, articles, scientific journals aside, The shroud is a very interesting relic. No question about it. Whether one is believer or not, the presence of the shroud demonstrates a darn good phenomenon, trick, demonstration of scientific principle or _something_. I don't know what caused the image to transfer to a piece of linen and neither does anyone else.

I can understand the owner- in this case the Catholic Church- not allowing further testing. Until recently, fairly large samples have required destruction to perform tests and they don't want their relic poked full of holes. Also, they have nothing to gain by finding out it's origin, makeup, and the cause of the image transfer. That they and their followers believe that it is what they say it is perpetuates the story that was put forth centuries ago. 

One would hope, however, that as time goes on, testing will require ever smaller and ever less destructive methods to ascertain the characteristics of the sample. Perhaps someday they will allow testing to put the issue to rest. For the believers, enough testing has already been done. For the doubters, there will never be enough testing to prove their point beyond doubt. I doubt I will live long enough to see it.

Jim


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 23, 2011)

myoakley said:


> It amazes me the lengths that some will go to explain away the miraculous and the supernatural.  I am reminded of a trip 2 years ago to Fatima, Portugal, the site of 6 Marian apparitions in 1917.   I asked a tour guide how people explained the sun "dancing" in the sky if they ruled out its being a response to the 3 children's pleadings for a miracle in order for people to believe them.  The wild gyrations of the sun were witnessed by more than 75,000 people, were photographed, and published on the front page of Portuguese newspapers.  Her response, "It may have been a UFO!"




I haven't heard the UFO claim, but alot of other scientific explanation have come forward...It was hardly a 'miracle' 



> Most of what's popularly reported about the sun incident, such as the colors and the spinning, comes from Father John de Marchi, a Catholic priest who spent years interviewing eyewitnesses to build evidence supporting the miraculous event. But more objective assessments of the eyewitness accounts have found very little evidence of a single shared experience. Author Kevin McClure, who also compiled eyewitness accounts, reported that he had "never seen such a collection of contradictory accounts in any of the research I have done in the past 10 years." If you were there, as a devout Catholic (otherwise you wouldn't be there), you fully believed in a miracle happening that day (otherwise you wouldn't be there), whether you personally saw anything or not you'd support the majority opinion, and probably go to your grave insisting that a miracle happened there. There's no surprise that Father de Marchi was able to form a consensus description of a spinning color wheel of a sun, and no need for any actual event to justify his consensus.


http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4110


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 23, 2011)

Passepartout said:


> I can understand the owner- in this case the Catholic Church- not allowing further testing. Until recently, fairly large samples have required destruction to perform tests and they don't want their relic poked full of holes. Also, they have nothing to gain by finding out it's origin, makeup, and the cause of the image transfer. That they and their followers believe that it is what they say it is perpetuates the story that was put forth centuries ago.
> 
> Jim



One could, very validly, argue that they have ALOT to loose if the origin, makeup and cause are proven against them...


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## derb (Dec 23, 2011)

The fact that a piece of cloth could generate so much attention by so many people from so many places over such an extended period of time with no positive conclusions is a Miracle in itself.
Even the Catholic church neither confirms nor denies its authenticity.


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 23, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> One could, very validly, argue that they have ALOT to loose if the origin, makeup and cause are proven against them...


Ride, you are such a Doubting Thomas.  Seriously.  You need to look into it more.

You should watch the shows and then make up your mind.  See why scientists studying the shroud have been both baffled and changed.  

I don't want to have this thread closed, so let's keep it away from a religious discussion, although I know it's difficult

There is another head cloth called the Sudarium, which is in Spain.  This piece of cloth has a longer history.  It also fits well with the Shroud.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 23, 2011)

derb said:


> The fact that a piece of cloth could generate so much attention by so many people from so many places over such an extended period of time with no positive conclusions is a Miracle in itself.
> Even the Catholic church neither confirms nor denies its authenticity.



I think its more of a miracle that people like the Kardashians and Paris Hilton are famous


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## easyrider (Dec 23, 2011)

There are many early Christian relics. All of these relics have a story and a purpose. The Shroud of Turin is the only relic to show the Holy Face of Jesus and has been the subject of pilgrimages by many including Pope Paul and Pope Benidict. 
In the same way a Cross or Crucifix is used on an alter of a church, the shroud is an object of devotion for many.
The new scientific evidence is that the image on the shroud was created by the "Light of the Resurection" which can not be replicated by man.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 23, 2011)

easyrider said:


> The new scientific evidence is that the image on the shroud was created by the "Light of the Resurection" which can not be replicated by man.



I wonder about 'scientific evidence' that can't be reproduced, i'm pretty sure from what i remember from college, you can't have 'scientific evidence' without reproducible results


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## myoakley (Dec 23, 2011)

> There is another head cloth called the Sudarium, which is in Spain.  This piece of cloth has a longer history.  It also fits well with the Shroud.




Thanks, Cindy and Rick for mentioning the Sudarium.  I had never heard of it, but I did some research, and the facts concerning it are quite compelling, also.


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## scrapngen (Dec 23, 2011)

myoakley said:


> It amazes me the lengths that some will go to explain away the miraculous and the supernatural.  I am reminded of a trip 2 years ago to Fatima, Portugal, the site of 6 Marian apparitions in 1917.   I asked a tour guide how people explained the sun "dancing" in the sky if they ruled out its being a response to the 3 children's pleadings for a miracle in order for people to believe them.  The wild gyrations of the sun were witnessed by more than 75,000 people, were photographed, and published on the front page of Portuguese newspapers.  Her response, "It may have been a UFO!"



It fascinates me that a "UFO" would be more believable in today's culture. I don't think that would have been a legitimate answer 50 years ago... 

Personally, I find the scientific study of the shroud to be very interesting as it relates to a belief specifically because they haven't been able to DISprove it! That in itself lends credence to the claims...   (hmmm...was I able to say that without violating TUG rules??  - I tried  )


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 23, 2011)

> . Using a two-part hypothesis I put forward in 1983, Italian chemist Luigi Garlaschelli has produced a replica shroud with such superficial staining.



http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_new...n-a-flash-italian-researchers-resurrect-claim

It's disproved many times, the problem is that nothing can rule out 100% of all possibilities, the scientists that have disproved it have been attacked by claims so ridiculous that they are laughable, but some are desperate to believe in the supernatural, that even those ridiculous claims are believed...The ufo believers and the people that believe in 'global banking conspiracies' are the same way


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 23, 2011)

myoakley said:


> Thanks, Cindy and Rick for mentioning the Sudarium.  I had never heard of it, but I did some research, and the facts concerning it are quite compelling, also.



They talk about the Sudarium cloth in the specials I keep telling people to watch.  I heard of it years ago and forgot all about it.  

A forensics specialist in the National Geographic special studies the cloth meticulously, and he talks about blood flow and blood type, the type of wounds the victim suffered, the folded thumbs, wounds on the head, and every little detail of the cloth.  

It's old fabric, and because of its age, the Vatican is very careful to only allow viewing occasionally.  How many pieces of cloth survive air, fire and water, as this cloth has?  It's not a miracle its survived (maybe?), but it is definitely a testament of how special it is to so many.  When it was in the fire, there was great concern about that piece of cloth.  It survived the fire because it was important to people.


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## Carol C (Dec 24, 2011)

jme said:


> who says realities of life only exist in the scientific realm? (you cannot address ANY subject without taking into account the total sum of knowledge, and you therefore cannot exclude other relevant facts.)  to the contrary, they do not, and there are little hints along the way, sometimes ignored in spite of the evidence.... p.s. my life has been an ongoing study of the sciences, beginning with biology and chemistry double majors, followed by a doctorate degree. Am I unscientific?  Hardly. (Merry Christmas!)



What jme said! Oh, and Merry Christmas to Marty...and to all my TUGger friends old and new!


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## jme (Dec 24, 2011)

Carol C said:


> What jme said! Oh, and Merry Christmas to Marty...and to all my TUGger friends old and new!



same to you, my good friend Carol.  It's a special time of year for so many reasons, but one in particular.....I received a gift that is unspeakable and immeasurable.  As they say, forever is a long time. Merry Christmas


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 24, 2011)

jme said:


> same to you, my good friend Carol.  It's a special time of year for so many reasons, but one in particular.....I received a gift that is unspeakable and immeasurable.  As they say, forever is a long time. Merry Christmas



Absolutely!  Merry Christmas to all!


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## pgnewarkboy (Dec 24, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Ride, you are such a Doubting Thomas.  Seriously.  You need to look into it more.
> 
> You should watch the shows and then make up your mind.  See why scientists studying the shroud have been both baffled and changed.
> 
> ...



This is  a  religious discussion about Christianity.   It  is also an example  of the systemic  hypocrisy of this board and  its so called  rules about discussing religion and controversial non travel related issues.


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## pjrose (Dec 25, 2011)

pgnewarkboy said:


> This is  a  religious discussion about Christianity.   It  is also an example  of the systemic  hypocrisy of this board and  its so called  rules about discussing religion and controversial non travel related issues.



I don't see it that way.....I think for the most part the discussion is about an object, how it may have been created, and whether people need to know, don't need to know, or wouldn't want to find out.


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## jme (Dec 25, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I wonder about 'scientific evidence' that can't be reproduced, i'm pretty sure from what i remember from college, you can't have 'scientific evidence' without reproducible results



True, but does that even matter?  Does the unrepeatable experiment render it invalid?  

science vs non-science?  sorta like the getting-older timesharing couple who look forward to the children scattered off at college finally getting together for a wonderful time together. A week of laughter, hugs, long walks and long talks...

Well, science got you there, but how do you explain all the rest?  the priceless time together and all the emotions of those deep relationships, and....the looks in the grand-kids' eyes playing in the surf with GrandPa and GrandMa for the first time.  (just a little example...there are others)

Science and non-science?.....

Life is a necessary combination of the two......and cannot be lived apart from the other----both are vital. And frankly, life cannot be explained entirely by just one---- experiences from each cannot, by definition, be explained by the other. They are mutually exclusive, and at the same time very dependent on each other. So, if you rid yourself of all that cannot be explained by science, you have a pretty vapid existence, devoid of all emotion and love.  

There are "certain" things beyond repeatable experiments that are crucial to understanding the universe. Ignoring them will be your loss. 

Again I say, Merry Christmas


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## pgnewarkboy (Dec 25, 2011)

pjrose said:


> I don't see it that way.....I think for the most part the discussion is about an object, how it may have been created, and whether people need to know, don't need to know, or wouldn't want to find out.



The object is a religious object dealing specifically with Jesus Christ.  Otherwise nobody would care.  Acting as if this is not the case is ........acting.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 25, 2011)

pgnewarkboy said:


> The object is a religious object dealing specifically with Jesus Christ.  Otherwise nobody would care.  Acting as if this is not the case is ........acting.



It's just a sheet used to lay over any of thousands of people that were crucified...there is zero evidence that it was laid on any one specific man, or really that it was used for that....A corporation has taken advantage of the possible age of this item so they can further their cause and expand their 'product'....this has been this corporation's MO for a long time, adapting what it can't corrupt

(i am using the generic term corporation and product to keep this away from being a religious discussion)


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## pgnewarkboy (Dec 26, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> It's just a sheet used to lay over any of thousands of people that were crucified...there is zero evidence that it was laid on any one specific man, or really that it was used for that....A corporation has taken advantage of the possible age of this item so they can further their cause and expand their 'product'....this has been this corporation's MO for a long time, adapting what it can't corrupt
> 
> (i am using the generic term corporation and product to keep this away from being a religious discussion)



That is your opinion.   Others say it contains the face of Jesus and is a miracle.  That is why this discussion is both religious and controversial -in violation of the sometimes applied rules of this board. It would be nice if the rules were applied consistently instead of arbitrarily.


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## ampaholic (Dec 26, 2011)

Phydeaux said:


> Research it. There are ties to Leonardo da Vinci. Smart guy.
> 
> -snip-



And in related news .... da Vinci discovered to have been experimenting with UV lasers and cold fusion power plants to drive them.

:hysterical:


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## easyrider (Dec 26, 2011)

"Two things I find most interesting about physical characteristics of the shroud.

1. The coloration representing the bodily features are not from any pigment and have very little depth. It is much like a slight scorching of the surface fibres, apparently.

2. The blood stains are ... according to reports ... real human blood, and patterns of the seepage and pooling are easy to see.


Pope Benedict pushed the envelope as closely as possible to saying he thinks it is authentic."
----------------------------------------------------------------------

If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 26, 2011)

easyrider said:


> "Two things I find most interesting about physical characteristics of the shroud.
> 
> 1. The coloration representing the bodily features are not from any pigment and have very little depth. It is much like a slight scorching of the surface fibres, apparently.
> 
> 2. The blood stains are ... according to reports ... real human blood, and patterns of the seepage and pooling are easy to see.



It was reproduced almost exactly with the lack of pigment and very little depth just a few years ago...it's very very likely that it was faked
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-10-07/world/italy.turin.shroud_1_shroud-turin-linen-sheet?_s=PM:WORLD



> If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.



The problem with eliminating the impossible is that it is impossible for this to have actually been a sheet covering some amazing zombie that came back from the dead...Sure it could have covered someone at some point, but we need to accept that zombies as well as magical ghosts in the sky are no more real then Unicorns or leprechauns


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## ampaholic (Dec 26, 2011)

*OMG*

How can this thread _*not*_ be locked by now?


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## easyrider (Dec 26, 2011)

The problem is when people think the truth of the Lord's divinity and resurrection depend on the authenticity (or inauthenticity) of the shroud. Atheists are threatened by it, while believers think attacks on it are attacks on their faith itself.

I would like to visit a place with such a controversial item.

Live long & prosper... ...


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## Ridewithme38 (Dec 26, 2011)

ampaholic said:


> How can this thread _*not*_ be locked by now?



I like this thread, since it is not about religion, i can't get in trouble for mocking someones beliefs...


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## pjrose (Dec 26, 2011)

ampaholic said:


> How can this thread _*not*_ be locked by now?



I think there are two people who are doing their best to try to get it locked - perhaps they want to be the last posters before the lock?  I hope the mods do not give them that satisfaction. 

We're SUPPOSED to be discussing scientific testing thereof, and rather than locking I wish the mods would just zap the rude and mocking comments made by some posters.


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## Passepartout (Dec 26, 2011)

easyrider said:


> Atheists are threatened by it...



I assure you, non-believers are not threatened by relics. Only by the radical beliefs of those who put their faith in them.

Jim


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## ampaholic (Dec 26, 2011)

I watched a discovery channel show about the shroud - and it seemed to be inconclusive as to it's "scientific" origin. 

They also seemed pretty sure that it had been in the possession of the Catholic Church since medieval times - precluding most "high tech" hockum pockum and fakery operated by earthlings.

So is there any "science" evidence of "non terrestrial" UV lasers involved?


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## pjrose (Dec 26, 2011)

I've occasionally read about other ancient extra-terrestrial evidence - or "evidence" - pictures that look like "Martians," the huge earth markings in South America that couldn't be seen from the ground, something that looked like an ancient battery.....

My thoughts about all of this AND the shroud, is that we still have a lot to learn.  100 years ago space travel and wireless communications and nuclear energy and MRIs and CT scans all would have seemed like hocus pocus magic miraculous.....who knows, maybe the shroud and zombies and religious miracles and space aliens all ARE real    

I may or may not believe in these things or events, but I try to keep an open mind, knowing that there's plenty that we don't know now that we or our progeny may know and even take for granted in the future.


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## Clemson Fan (Dec 26, 2011)

pjrose said:


> I think there are two people who are doing their best to try to get it locked - perhaps they want to be the last posters before the lock?  I hope the mods do not give them that satisfaction.
> 
> We're SUPPOSED to be discussing scientific testing thereof, and rather than locking I wish the mods would just zap the rude and mocking comments made by some posters.



Agreed.  I actually think its been a very respectful conversation with different viewpoints about a hisorical item and person.  There have only been a few people who have jumped in with the sole purpose of closing the thread.


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## Clemson Fan (Dec 26, 2011)

jme said:


> True, but does that even matter?  Does the unrepeatable experiment render it invalid?
> 
> science vs non-science?  sorta like the getting-older timesharing couple who look forward to the children scattered off at college finally getting together for a wonderful time together. A week of laughter, hugs, long walks and long talks...
> 
> ...



Merry Christmas! I really have enjoyed your posts on this thread!


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## persia (Jan 1, 2012)

Exactly, in one version of the past, Da Vinci had lasers, it the current 01/01/12 past he didn't, who knows what the past will be in a month or two?

It's only the future hat's fixed because it hasn't happened yet, once it happens then the time travellers will come and change it and it'll keep changing.



ampaholic said:


> And in related news .... da Vinci discovered to have been experimenting with UV lasers and cold fusion power plants to drive them.
> 
> :hysterical:


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## ampaholic (Jan 1, 2012)

persia said:


> Exactly, in one version of the past, Da Vinci had lasers, it the current 01/01/12 past he didn't, who knows what the past will be in a month or two?
> 
> It's only the future hat's fixed because it hasn't happened yet, once it happens then the time travellers will come and change it and it'll keep changing.



I *loved* that Van Damm documentary "Time Cop". Particularly the "read between the lines" scene. :hysterical:


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## easyrider (Mar 28, 2013)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ke-dates-Christs-lifetime-say-scientists.html

"""Just in time for Easter a new study has claimed that the Shroud of Turin is a not a medieval forgery but could - in fact - be the burial shroud that was used to wrap the body of Christ.
The cloth’s consistency is similar to those used to bury the dead at the time of Christ, 2,000 years ago, according to the latest scientific studies.
Details of the research have emerged in a book and come ahead of Saturday's rare glimpse of the Shroud, when TV cameras will film it as part of a live broadcast ahead of Easter Sunday."""

Bill


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## jme (Mar 28, 2013)

easyrider said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ke-dates-Christs-lifetime-say-scientists.html
> 
> """Just in time for Easter a new study has claimed that the Shroud of Turin is a not a medieval forgery but could - in fact - be the burial shroud that was used to wrap the body of Christ.
> The cloth’s consistency is similar to those used to bury the dead at the time of Christ, 2,000 years ago, according to the latest scientific studies.
> ...



Yes, saw that article today, too.....very very interesting.....reminded me of one of my own thoughts:  Not all scientific theories are proven; some are just never rejected.

Sometimes a thing (theory, object... whatever) doesn't have 100% of the facts in yet, i.e., enough to prove it, but it can indeed have ENOUGH facts to warrant a 100% commitment to it. For instance, from all the evidence gathered by me to date, I have enough belief that when I crank up my car and drive, it'll do what I command it to do without taking me over the cliff of its own free will. Regardless of endless possibilities, I've thusly committed myself to it 100%. 

Einstein's Theory of Relativity was not proven for many decades, just accepted....and in 2011 two key elements of it were shown to be true by reproducible scientific observations. Yet it was never rejected. 

As for the Shroud of Turin, it's merely an object whose origin cannot be proven regardless of scientific effort, period. It CAN, however, to date NOT BE REJECTED, because the preponderance of new scientific thought suggests it "does not deviate" from a cloth which "could have been covering" a certain person who supposedly lived, died, and was prepared for burial, yet wasn't ever buried permanently in it.  

The others who wore such a wrapping (to my knowledge) have all been buried in theirs, so why was this one never used in burial? THAT'S the pertinent question, and it eliminates all the "supposed thousands" of others who were crucified (as one previous poster reminded us).  So where are all those other shrouds? Were they too collected and saved by family when they were really supposed to be buried with the deceased? That narrows that argument significantly as to how many people it could have belonged to, does it not? 

Remember, there was only one historical man who supposedly had his "burial cloth" found neatly folded and laid to the side of the missing body. So far, no proof of anything, yet just as valid because there's no disproof of anything either.....BUT, a definite building of evidence which just might warrant a 100% commitment to a non-proven event. And btw, that "event" cannot be proved or disproved in the scientific realm anyway, therefore it's not really science's place to prove or disprove for belief. By definition it exists only in the realm of faith. 

I do happen to personally believe that this shroud was in fact the burial cloth of a real man who was crucified around the time of the historical figure Jesus' death, and that it underwent some strange sort of transformation unlike anything ever seen before, to date unexplained even by the efforts of modern sophisticated science. Does that mean it was Jesus' burial cloth? No one can rightly say yes or no and be 100% accurate. But it's enough for me. My life's study has been in science, with a major and minor is Chemistry and Biology, so I am not speaking from unfamiliar territory. I've learned enough facts to warrant a nod to one side. 

The shroud is not "necessary" for my beliefs, as I base them on far more evidence than that. I comment on this subject again because it is a fascinating object which DEFIES science, and I find that pretty remarkable....one of a kind, actually, and in this world, that's a rarity if not an out-and-out impossibility (in the universe of non-miracles as believed by many) To most, it's just "interesting" and means little more. I'm OK with that too. We can simply never know scientifically until it's returned to the owner who verifies it. 

In light of the article today in the media regarding the famous Shroud of Turin, I re-read all the posts in this old thread, and it again stirred my emotions and rekindled the debate of the place of science and non-science in the world.  To digress a bit, in honesty, my one overriding silly thought, which was more of an aside, was:  per the unstated invitation to "ridewithme", I think I'd rather not, as I'm not interested in the direction that vehicle is headed.


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## DanaTom (Mar 29, 2013)

*Treasure Hunters*

Have you seen the show Treasure Detectives on USA Network...   I wonder if they could authenticate it an give it a value?   

Personally though, I tend to think the Shroud could be real, and I will leave my thoughts with that.  

Happy Easter everyone.   I hope the bunny is nice to you this year.


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## Clemson Fan (Mar 29, 2013)

jme said:


> Yes, saw that article today, too.....very very interesting.....reminded me of one of my own thoughts:  Not all scientific theories are proven; some are just never rejected.
> 
> Sometimes a thing (theory, object... whatever) doesn't have 100% of the facts in yet, i.e., enough to prove it, but it can indeed have ENOUGH facts to warrant a 100% commitment to it. For instance, from all the evidence gathered by me to date, I have enough belief that when I crank up my car and drive, it'll do what I command it to do without taking me over the cliff of its own free will. Regardless of endless possibilities, I've thusly committed myself to it 100%.
> 
> ...



Another awesome post!

I'm a medical doctor and when I began my studies I was fairly agnostic and fairly cocky about what I thought was a bunch of make believe fantasy.

The more I studied about the human body and about living things in general, the more amazed I became.

The more I studied about the scientific method and how many things we take as "fact", the more I realized that we know far fewer "facts" then we think we do.  The medical and scientific literature is full of "facts" taken as rock solid scientific doctrine for decades that was later shown to be in fact not true and not a "fact" at all.

I find that people who are so sure they absolutely know something usually end up not knowing anything at all.  People who think that science has come so far nowadays as to make a mockery out of faith based beliefs really don't IMO understand the science they so fiercly subscribe to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for evidence based medicine.  I've just learned through experience that some of the "scientific evidence" isn't nearly as strong as we would like to believe and it's certainly not infallible.  There's a lot more "faith" in our decisions and beliefs then there is "scientific fact".


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## JudyS (Mar 29, 2013)

Phydeaux said:


> ....
> Believing that _something_ developed from _nothing_ is suggestive that a 747 jet could be created from a tornado blowing through a junkyard scrap pile. But then again, where did the scrap pile come from?...


I believe in both God and evolution. I see no contradiction between the two, just as I see no contradiction between believing in God and in gravity. Natural selection is a theory concerning nature (or more accurately it is a natural law, like gravity.) It makes no claims whatsoever about God, the source of the universe, the existence of souls, or anything else outside the natural realm.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Mar 29, 2013)

-- deleted --


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## x3 skier (Mar 29, 2013)

I was fortunate enough to be in Turin many years ago when the Shroud was on public display. Fascinating object. 

Cheers


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## jme (Mar 29, 2013)

Clemson Fan said:


> Another awesome post!
> 
> I'm a medical doctor and when I began my studies I was fairly agnostic and fairly cocky about what I thought was a bunch of make believe fantasy.
> 
> ...



Thanks Clemson Fan!!!! and that comes from a diehard UGA fan....(btw, see you FIRST game this Fall.....extremely glad we're renewing that great rivalry. Please could you spot us at least 14 points? We'll need it.)  

Per this thread and your comments, the human body is indeed a miraculous thing in and of itself. Thank you for saying it. It blows me away to contemplate it. The brain and all the interrelated working systems?  Beyond our comprehension really.  I might even venture to say it's another testament to something other than random chance. How someone can accept only the 
strange coincidence and accident of nature which allowed supposedly two different sexes of each species to reproduce only it's own species, and then survive day to day simply by "adding water" (and food) is amazing and takes such a huge leap of faith. Have you ever thrown a piece of meat into a corner and waited to see if it develops into something great? "Yeah but there were billions of years....."....OK let's wait billions and see what happens.

 A sea of floating materials and molecules? Well, I'd say that's a smelly brew indeed. Heck, we can't even bring back a life one hour after it's death, and ALL THE PIECES ARE STILL THERE 100%, ready to go. Why not? Only thing missing is that spark of life. Where can we buy one of those? Pity, really. I'd love to see my grandfather again. He never got to visit my beautiful timeshares.


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## Clemson Fan (Mar 29, 2013)

jme said:


> Thanks Clemson Fan!!!! and that comes from a diehard UGA fan....(btw, see you FIRST game this Fall.....extremely glad we're renewing that great rivalry. Please could you spot us at least 14 points? We'll need it.



With our vaunted defense, you'll have your 14 points in the 1st quarter.

I wish we were in the SEC as there are much better and more historical rivalries.


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## DeniseM (Mar 29, 2013)

A gentle request:  Please focus on the cultural, historical, and scientific significance of this topic.  Religious discussions are not permitted on TUG.  Thanks for understanding.


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## MULTIZ321 (Nov 24, 2019)

The Shroud of Turin Was Declared a Fraud. New
Research Has Some Asking for a Retrial.


https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-s...esearch-has-some-asking-for-a-retrial?via=rss.


Richard


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## amycurl (Nov 24, 2019)

I wonder whatever happened to pjrose and ridewithme. I always enjoyed ride's posts, esp. about his travels with his daughter. It looks like he disappeared sometime in 2017....


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 24, 2019)

amycurl said:


> I wonder whatever happened to pjrose and ridewithme. I always enjoyed ride's posts, esp. about his travels with his daughter. It looks like he disappeared sometime in 2017....


I have wondered the same thing.  pjrose posted a lot in the TUG Lounge.  There are quite a few people missing lately.  I hope they are okay.  We know that some were older.


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## pedro47 (Nov 25, 2019)

DeniseM, thanks you for your post.


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