# Best way to get out of a timeshare



## sparty (Jan 22, 2011)

If you're going to buy resale, what's the best way (any way?) to structure the ownership such that you can't get legally bound to the maintenance fees and ownership?  Have an attorney deed in a special way? I am thinking Marriott, but it could apply to others too.

I know about donating, but also know many charities won't take a TS since you're not really giving anything and instead creating a financial liability for them.

Any advice?


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## vacationhopeful (Jan 22, 2011)

Your resort's list shows 2 Marriotts. Are you trying to part with those? You might just want to offer them on the "Bargain Deals" thread - please include the season and yearly MF cost.

Just a suggestion - I don't need another timeshare. I don't even sign onto eBay anymore.


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## larryallen (Jan 22, 2011)

I should think you could buy the timeshare in an LLC. Of course some states have pretty high annual fees for LLCs which make it not a practical thing to do.


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## AwayWeGo (Jan 22, 2011)

*Timeshare Ownership Ethics.*




sparty said:


> Any advice?


Stay on the up & up.  Get your lawyer to make sure you are not skirting the fringes of fraud by laying on some tricky moves aimed at dodging legal obligations. 

Remember, any time you zap some timeshare out of maintenance fees & reserve funds & real estate taxes, you are not socking it to the timeshare company -- you're sticking all your fellow owners with a share of the rightful fees that you contrived to dodge. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## chalee94 (Jan 22, 2011)

sparty said:


> If you're going to buy resale, what's the best way (any way?) to structure the ownership such that you can't get legally bound to the maintenance fees and ownership?



if you buy a resale you *own* it.

if you own it, you are *responsible *for the associated costs.

if you don't want to be responsible for it, don't buy it.  just rent what you want.

this really shouldn't be very complicated...


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## jimf41 (Jan 22, 2011)

The title of your thread indicates you want to dispose of your timeshare. The body of the thread indicates you want to buy one in the first sentence and donate one in the second sentence.

What is it that you actually want to do? Buy, sell or donate?


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## sparty (Jan 22, 2011)

jimf41 said:


> The title of your thread indicates you want to dispose of your timeshare. The body of the thread indicates you want to buy one in the first sentence and donate one in the second sentence.
> 
> What is it that you actually want to do? Buy, sell or donate?



Buy with the intention of restricting the liability.

Do we have a right to limit the liability should the investment fail due to the developer stacking the deck against resale or a trading company taking inventory and not trading but selling it themselves directly to the public at large?

As a recent post here was asking about forming a class action lawsuit against Marriott for lost value due to DC, is it better to mitigate risk by use of a LLC?

So this is really about risk mitigation.  If the developers keep the value of the investment, don't ridiculously raise the MF's so many can't afford it, the trading companies stay on the up-and-up, then exiting the investment never becomes an issue...


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## BocaBoy (Jan 22, 2011)

sparty said:


> .....If the developers.....don't ridiculously raise the MF's...



Actually, once a resort has sold most of its units, the Board of the Owners' Association (elected by the owners) sets the maintenance fees, not the developer.


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## Karen G (Jan 22, 2011)

sparty said:


> Buy with the intention of restricting the liability.


 As someone mentioned above, you should just rent if you don't want the associated responsibilities that come with ownership.  If you were the seller, would you want to sell to someone who was free to walk away from their obligations if they became dissatisfied?


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## hotcoffee (Jan 22, 2011)

sparty said:


> . . . Do we have a right to limit the liability should the investment fail due to the developer stacking the deck against resale or a trading company taking inventory and not trading but selling it themselves directly to the public at large? . . .



I think it is interesting that your chose the word "investment" in the quoted sentence.  The one thing a timeshare is not is an investment.  Perhaps getting a real steal off of eBay might enable you to eventually sell at a profit; but I think that, in general, you can assume that you are going to lose money if you attempt to sell your timeshare.

I don't see much evidence that the U.S. economy will ever return to what it was years ago.  So, resale prices might get worse before they get better.  Moreover, I assume Marriott will do what they feel is necessary to make their timeshare division profitable.  If it becomes virtually impossible to make money in the timeshare business, they might exit the timeshare market altogether.  The DC program might just be the first change with more to come down the road.  I don't think Marriott likes the competition from resales very much.  So, I am pessimistic that they will do much to benefit resale owners.


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## DeniseM (Jan 22, 2011)

The "owners" own a timeshare resort - not the developer.  If you use some tricky legal loophole to get out of your timeshare, the burden falls on other owners - not the developer!  I have had to pay hundreds of dollars of extra maintenance fees lately because of deadbeat owner!


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## sparty (Jan 22, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> The "owners" own a timeshare the resort - not the developer.  If you use some tricky legal loophole to get out of your timeshare, the burden falls on other owners - not the developer!  I have had to pay hundreds of dollars of extra maintenance fees lately because of deadbeat owner!



Even better... The owners association can control the MF's, put pressure back on the managing company to reduce fees or they know that some point owners can walk away.

And yes it's an investment.  Investment has many forms, money is just one form of investment.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 22, 2011)

I want to know whatever solution the OP comes up with, because as soon as it's figured out how to buy something without suffering the burden of financial responsibility for it, I'm going out to buy a new house, a new car, new furniture, new teevees, etc.  Why not?


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## hotcoffee (Jan 22, 2011)

sparty said:


> . . . And yes it's an investment.  Investment has many forms, money is just one form of investment.



Except that you must want yours to be money or else why start the thread to begin with.  If vacations are the investment, then when you use your timeshare, you are making use of your investment.  There is no other investment except the vacations you get.  We are not guaranteed to be able to reserve our preferred week; we are not guaranteed to be able to get the exchange we want; we are not guaranteed that we will be able to sell for what we paid.  That is the reality of timesharing.


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## DeniseM (Jan 22, 2011)

sparty said:


> Even better... The owners association can control the MF's, put pressure back on the managing company to reduce fees or they know that some point owners can walk away.



Yes, and if enough owners walk away, the resort goes bankrupt, and all owners lose out.  That's not a solution.  You are still looking at this as if the owners and the resort are 2 separate entities - they are one and the same.


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## DanCali (Jan 22, 2011)

BocaBoy said:


> Actually, once a resort has sold most of its units, the Board of the Owners' Association (elected by the owners) sets the maintenance fees, not the developer.



I doubt the board has any clue about many of the MF componets. Marriott sets the fees. The (marriott handpicked board) rubber stamps them. The day they dont, Marriott takes its name off the door.


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## AwayWeGo (Jan 22, 2011)

*We Have Met The Timeshare Managers & They Are Us.*




sparty said:


> The owners association can control the MF's, put pressure back on the managing company to reduce fees or they know that some point owners can walk away.








DeniseM said:


> That's not a solution.  You are still looking at this as if the owners and the resort are 2 separate entities - they are one and the same.


Not only that, the HOA -- not the management company -- sets the fees.  

Sure, sometimes the HOA & the management company are both controlled by the timeshare company, but not always -- for example, at sold-out timeshares where the regular, walking-around owners have voted out the company-stooge directors & voted in independent, owner-minded directors.  

When independent, owner controlled HOAs are calling the shots, then the HOA negotiates its own deal with whatever resort management company it choose, on mutually agreeable terms (competitive bidding, fixed fee, etc.). 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## DeniseM (Jan 22, 2011)

DanCali said:


> I doubt the board has any clue about many of the MF componets. Marriott sets the fees. The (marriott handpicked board) rubber stamps them. The day they dont, Marriott takes its name off the door.



I believe it's the same with Starwood.  Starwood still has employees on the boards of sold-out resorts.


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## ocdb8r (Jan 22, 2011)

DanCali said:


> I doubt the board has any clue about many of the MF componets. Marriott sets the fees. The (marriott handpicked board) rubber stamps them. The day they dont, Marriott takes its name off the door.



I tend to agree with the sentiment here.  While maybe not clueless, Marriott wants to control the board to ensure it maintains its management contract and to ensure the resort is maintained to a Marriott standard.  The day it can't ensure both those things is the day the management relationship ends.  To date, I think Marriott has been fairly reasonable with where it has set maintenance fees, but who knows what the future holds.


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## BocaBoy (Jan 22, 2011)

DanCali said:


> I doubt the board has any clue about many of the MF componets. Marriott sets the fees. The (marriott handpicked board) rubber stamps them. The day they dont, Marriott takes its name off the door.



It is not a handpicked board with sold out resorts.  It was certainly not a hand picked board in Colorado that threw Marriott out a few years ago.


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## pwrshift (Jan 22, 2011)

Before the recession, Manor Club had two years in a row of very high MF increases (12% and 16% I'd I remember correctly) without major Reno to justify it.  My assumption is that the HOA was forced by Marriott to close the gap between their other TS...people bought MMC just to trade into other resorts that had MF twice as high.

Brian


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## ocdb8r (Jan 22, 2011)

BocaBoy said:


> It is not a handpicked board with sold out resorts.  It was certainly not a hand picked board in Colorado that threw Marriott out a few years ago.



First, Streamside was not a Marriott developed property so it didn't have the opportunity to stack the deck on the resort's HOA.  Second, I think this proves the point.  Marriott wanted the resort to spend to upgrade and the HOA wouldn't authorize it.  I think Marriott actually dumped them.


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## JimC (Jan 22, 2011)

I also am unclear regarding what you want to do - buy or dispose a timeshare or better manage ownership risk.

If it is the latter, contact a lawyer with expertise in real estate, interval ownership and estate planning/asset protection.


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## DanCali (Jan 22, 2011)

BocaBoy said:


> It is not a handpicked board with sold out resorts.  It was certainly not a hand picked board in Colorado that threw Marriott out a few years ago.



Why don't you try the relatively simple thing of getting on the ballot at one of the resorts you own and see if you make it...? There are 10,000+ owners at each resort - you really think only 3 or 4 apply to be on the board every time a seat is open? Or does Marriott screen them out somehow?


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## NWL (Jan 22, 2011)

sparty said:


> If you're going to buy resale, what's the best way (any way?) to structure the ownership such that you can't get legally bound to the maintenance fees and ownership?  Have an attorney deed in a special way? I am thinking Marriott, but it could apply to others too.
> 
> I know about donating, but also know many charities won't take a TS since you're not really giving anything and instead creating a financial liability for them.
> 
> Any advice?



If this is something that you REALLY want to do, then find a state that allows you to set up a LLC for a reasonable cost.  Montana is one such state.  People from all over the country flock here to buy expensive motor homes.  They go across the street to a local lawyer, set up the LLC, then buy and license said motor home in Montana.  If you ever wondered why so many motor homes have Montana license plates, now you know.  

Life is full of loopholes.

Cheers!


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## Big Matt (Jan 22, 2011)

That's not exactly what happened, but it's close.

They never had enough reserve fee set aside.  My guess is that Marriott kept that artificially low for several years to incent sales.

Now the reserve is good, but we won't see refurb in Sequel until 2013.  At that point it will just get the units up to standard with granite, etc.  

Manor Club is beautiful, but for years it hasn't been as nice as most of the other timeshares regarding granite, appliances, TVs, etc.



pwrshift said:


> Before the recession, Manor Club had two years in a row of very high MF increases (12% and 16% I'd I remember correctly) without major Reno to justify it.  My assumption is that the HOA was forced by Marriott to close the gap between their other TS...people bought MMC just to trade into other resorts that had MF twice as high.
> 
> Brian


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## BocaBoy (Jan 23, 2011)

ocdb8r said:


> First, Streamside was not a Marriott developed property so it didn't have the opportunity to stack the deck on the resort's HOA.  Second, I think this proves the point.  Marriott wanted the resort to spend to upgrade and the HOA wouldn't authorize it.  I think Marriott actually dumped them.



Marriott was dumped.


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## ocdb8r (Jan 23, 2011)

BocaBoy said:


> Marriott was dumped.



I wasn't clear.  I understand that officially the board voted to remove Marriott as the management company.  What I was saying was that in reality I think Marriott did the "dumping.."  I imagine Marriott said, make the upgrades or find another management company.  Why do I suspect this? Marriott's subsequent contract with the Streamside phases that remained affiliated contained a clause that allowed Marriott to terminate should the units not be upgraded to their desired standard.

Obviously this sort of relationship isn't all bad.  Most of us bought Marriott because we want to stay at quality timeshares.  However, make no mistake that Marriott is in the drivers seat as far as maintenance fees go.  As DanCali points out, it's incredibly difficult to actually get on your HOA board at most developer built resorts.  In the beginning the developer stacks the board as they own all the units.  Then in subsequent years that board typically votes all units for which a designated proxy is not received (usually the majority).  Further complicating things is that the management company (Marriott) is the only one with sufficient access to owner information...and more often then not they don't release that to other people who want to be candidates.

More on point to the OP...I am really not a fan of anyone devising a way to shirk their financial responsibilities.  Personally I wouldn't ever go down one of the routes being suggested here.  If you want to timeshare you should accept that there are both risks and benefits.


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## davidn247 (Jan 23, 2011)

Nicely said about the risks and benefits of timeshare. Frankly, I studied a lot the TS think before I moved in. It is the right balanced between not paying all the costs of a property and having to accept compromises. You cannot take only one side of the equation.

Marriott is not perfect but they follow certain principles that is how I see things (for instance in the area of maintaining well the properties). Cannot comment about the possible conflict of interest but people on the board are also owners and pay from their own pockets. If you choose to stay in TS, Marriott has his brand in the game and they cannot really do it wrong over the long term.

I will start being closer to my resorts financials (MF), but I can tell you that vacationing at Marriott TS gives me much less headaches that my lake house at more than half of the price...


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## Fredm (Jan 23, 2011)

ocdb8r said:


> I understand that officially the board voted to remove Marriott as the management company.  What I was saying was that in reality I think Marriott did the "dumping.." * I imagine Marriott said, make the upgrades or find another management company. * Why do I suspect this? Marriott's subsequent contract with the Streamside phases that remained affiliated contained a clause that allowed Marriott to terminate should the units not be upgraded to their desired standard.



That is how it happened, IIRC. 
Same thing occurred at Spicebush, Swallowtail, and Longboat Keys.
All were about to lose their I.I. 5 * rating. 
All were acquired (not built by Marriott). 
Marriott required that the upgrades be made, or they would de-brand the property.

The independent HOA's had a decision to make. They made it.

Harbor Point had a similar situation. They voted to upgrade and remain a Marriott resort.


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## wof45 (Jan 23, 2011)

DanCali said:


> Why don't you try the relatively simple thing of getting on the ballot at one of the resorts you own and see if you make it...? There are 10,000+ owners at each resort - you really think only 3 or 4 apply to be on the board every time a seat is open? Or does Marriott screen them out somehow?



the HOA operates under strict rules.  If you want to run for the board, all you need to do is submit your name, information and comments by the date required, and you will be on the ballot.  Each TS interest gets a weighted vote, and MVC can only vote weeks that they own.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 23, 2011)

wof45 said:


> the HOA operates under strict rules.  If you want to run for the board, all you need to do is submit your name, information and comments by the date required, and you will be on the ballot.



Not true. Marriott board candidates go through a nominating committee that is established by the board. So just because you get your name submitted on time, it doesn't mean you will be on the ballot.


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## wof45 (Jan 23, 2011)

Fredm said:


> That is how it happened, IIRC.
> Same thing occurred at Spicebush, Swallowtail, and Longboat Keys.
> All were about to lose their I.I. 5 * rating.
> All were acquired (not built by Marriott).
> ...



I believe there are a lot of people who bought resale, or have owned for a long time who do not want to pay increasing MF.  That is a natural reaction, but if the resorts are not maintained, what makes anyone believe the TS they will retain there trading ability?

We are now in a Wyndham TS in Newport RI.  The location is great, the views are great, the unit space is nice -- but it is no Marriott.  It is like staying in a Fairfield Inn instead of a Marriott Resort Hotel.  Low quality furniture, no interior decorating, poor window blinds that don't even keep out the winds, no landscaping, older kitchen and baths.  (we aren't complaining since we have been here before and it is a cheap getaway week).

It would certainly be a nice second home by the ocean, but not a resort.  This is why Marriott MF are high compared to lower value resorts -- because of the quality.  If people do not want to pay the cost of maintaining the resort quality, why don't they buy a resort with lower MF instead.


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## jlf58 (Jan 23, 2011)

No offense but did you really ask that questions LOL ?
If you find a way, and I can convert that method to a pesky credit card I have, please do tell.





sparty said:


> If you're going to buy resale, what's the best way (any way?) to structure the ownership such that you can't get legally bound to the maintenance fees and ownership?  Have an attorney deed in a special way? I am thinking Marriott, but it could apply to others too.
> 
> I know about donating, but also know many charities won't take a TS since you're not really giving anything and instead creating a financial liability for them.
> 
> Any advice?


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## mwwich (Jan 23, 2011)

sparty said:


> If you're going to buy resale, what's the best way (any way?) to structure the ownership such that you can't get legally bound to the maintenance fees and ownership?  Have an attorney deed in a special way? I am thinking Marriott, but it could apply to others too.
> 
> I know about donating, but also know many charities won't take a TS since you're not really giving anything and instead creating a financial liability for them.
> 
> Any advice?



Not to be offensive, but this sounds a lot like those that bought a home, signed on to the mortgage, and when the value dropped they simply mailed in the keys to the bank; not thinking of the individual(s) who owned the note on their home and now are out their investment.  

If you don't want the obiligations that come with the TS, then do everyone else a favor and don't buy one.  Why even bother?  It's one thing if someone loses their job or has a health crisis unexpectedly, but you sound as if you are going to default on purpose once you've tired of your purchase.


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## larryallen (Jan 23, 2011)

I don't see what's so offensive by the OP's question.  A lot of people try to cut their risk when they make a purchase. Not sure why the sheep mentality here. The guy has a valid question. Again, an LLC would probably work. However, your LLC's annual fees would add up over time. In my opinion it's probably not financially smart to do the LLC; that is, you would pay a lot for insurance to be able to walk away from your timeshare. Better off setting aisde $100 a year and if after 20 years you want to walk away from a very negative valued timeshare you could offer people money to take it over. Sort of like people do with leased cars they can't afford the payments on anymore.


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## DeniseM (Jan 23, 2011)

The reason that it's offensive is that YOU and I will be paying his MF when he (intentionally) defaults - are you OK with that?


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## wof45 (Jan 23, 2011)

I think we all understand that circumstances change -- people lose jobs, people retire and have more limited income, etc.  What is the solution for these people who also own a timeshare except to stop paying?

The other concern I have is people who bought off season -- bronze and silver weeks -- who now wonder why they are paying a high maintenance fee for time that has low value.  They also can't give this away on ebay, even Marriott off season.  How is this solved?

what will older legacy resorts do when they pick up foreclosed off-season weeks for which there is no market?  Sounds like higher MF for all of the other owners.


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## DeniseM (Jan 23, 2011)

In my opinion, setting up a plan in advance so you can default on your timeshare is not the same as running into financial difficulties, and then needing help.  YMMV


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## hotcoffee (Jan 23, 2011)

wof45 said:


> I think we all understand that circumstances change -- people lose jobs, people retire and have more limited income, etc.  What is the solution for these people who also own a timeshare except to stop paying?
> 
> The other concern I have is people who bought off season -- bronze and silver weeks -- who now wonder why they are paying a high maintenance fee for time that has low value.  They also can't give this away on ebay, even Marriott off season.  How is this solved?
> 
> what will older legacy resorts do when they pick up foreclosed off-season weeks for which there is no market?  Sounds like higher MF for all of the other owners.



The points you make are the reasons I resisted buying a timeshare for many years prior to actually buying one in a moment of weakness.  While up to recently, it was possible to get at least a reasonable return on a resale, now a buyer should probably consider his purchase to be comparable to flushing money down the toilet.  In fact, if you flushed it down the toilet, you would be better off financially due to your not having to pay the MFs.

My advice to those who are considering buying a timeshare in this economic climate is to save your money and just rent.  If you have already bought one, you have to the accept the responsibility of your actions.  Grin and pay the MFs.


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## Dr.K (Jan 23, 2011)

*????*



NWL said:


> People from all over the country flock here to buy expensive motor homes.  ....  If you ever wondered why so many motor homes have Montana license plates, now you know.  !



NWL, thanks for your post.  Why would someone want to license their motorhome through an LLC?  Is it to limit their liability if they CRUSH a volkswagen beetle in an accident????


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## windje2000 (Jan 23, 2011)

Dr.K said:


> NWL, thanks for your post.  Why would someone want to license their motorhome through an LLC?  Is it to limit their liability if they CRUSH a volkswagen beetle in an accident????



Montana has no sales tax.


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## larryallen (Jan 23, 2011)

_The reason that it's offensive is that YOU and I will be paying his MF when he (intentionally) defaults - are you OK with that?_

Sounds like life to me.  I am ok paying way more than my share of taxes, paying my mortgage AND tons of others who default, etc....  If someone wants to go to the trouble and expense of setting up an LLC to protect their downside on a timeshare good for them. It will be such a small fraction of people that it is irrelevant. As a financial decision it's very overboard to set up an LLC on a timeshare. The fees they will pay to set it up and ongoing annual fees to the state will far outweight the benefit in my opinion.  I just don't think it's as offensive as people on here suggest. People use LLCs to protect themselves from liability every day of the week... just usually on more major purchases like investment properties.


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## DeniseM (Jan 23, 2011)

We will have to agreed to disagree.  IMNSHO, setting up an LLC for a business, or investment, and setting one up for a private luxury purchase, are two entirely different things.  If someone has a true financial hardship, they  have to do whatever they have to do.  But if someone just wants to take the easy way out - I don't want to pay for it.  YMMV


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## NWL (Jan 23, 2011)

Dr.K said:


> NWL, thanks for your post.  Why would someone want to license their motorhome through an LLC?  Is it to limit their liability if they CRUSH a volkswagen beetle in an accident????





windje2000 said:


> Montana has no sales tax.



windje2000 is correct.  Setting up an LLC in Montana is relatively cheap (we did ours for our business through Legal Zoom for under $500).  When you're buying a $100,000 plus motor home, it's easy to see the advantage of the LLC.

If there are other advantages, I am unaware of them, but your Volkswagen scenario seems like a good possibility.

Cheers!


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## Dr.K (Jan 23, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> In my opinion, setting up a plan in advance so you can default on your timeshare is not the same as running into financial difficulties, and then needing help.  YMMV



AGREED!  Unfortunately nowadays people feel no shame in walking away from their obligations.  They assume two wrongs [HOA raising MF] make a right [to stop paying their MF]. 

Onto another question [is that allowed?].  I am negotiating a rtu at Marriott Marbella Beach Resort.  If I tried to run for the HOA board, how would I go about it?  Does anyone know how the process works in Spain?


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## AwayWeGo (Jan 23, 2011)

*How Do You Figure ?*




Dr.K said:


> They assume two wrongs [HOA raising MF] make a right [to stop paying their MF].


When costs go up as they frequently do -- e.g., employee Blue Cross premiums, utilities, supplies, wages, insurance, etc. -- what's wrong with increasing the maintenance fees accordingly ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## ilene13 (Jan 23, 2011)

*donation to a charity*



sparty said:


> If you're going to buy resale, what's the best way (any way?) to structure the ownership such that you can't get legally bound to the maintenance fees and ownership?  Have an attorney deed in a special way? I am thinking Marriott, but it could apply to others too.
> 
> I know about donating, but also know many charities won't take a TS since you're not really giving anything and instead creating a financial liability for them.
> 
> Any advice?



About 10 years ago we tried to sell one of our timeshares that was located in Kissimmee, Florida.  We could not sell it.  We donated it to Make a Wish Foundation with a 3 year II membership.  We got a nice tax break and they have used it or an exchange for a wish annually.


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## DeniseM (Jan 23, 2011)

Charities are no longer accepting timeshare donations, because they have been flooded with offers.  There are companies like Donate for a Cause that  will "take your timeshare off your hands" for $1,800.  However, you are unlikely to get a legitimate tax deduction, because you can only write of the "fair market value."  The fair market value of a timeshare that you have to pay someone to take off your hands is zero.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 23, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Charities are no longer accepting timeshare donations, because they have been flooded with offers.  There are companies like Donate for a Cause that  will "take your timeshare off your hands" for $1,800.  However, you are unlikely to get a legitimate tax deduction, because you can only write of the "fair market value."  The fair market value of a timeshare that you have to pay someone to take off your hands is zero.



Wouldn't you still be able to get the tax deduction for the amount you paid to donate the TS. In this case, $1800?


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## AwayWeGo (Jan 23, 2011)

*Negatory.*




dioxide45 said:


> Wouldn't you still be able to get the tax deduction for the amount you paid to donate the TS. In this case, $1800?


No. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## DeniseM (Jan 23, 2011)

No - the $1,800 goes to Donate for a Cause - it's their fee - it doesn't go to charity.  Their in-house appraiser gives you an inflated appraisal for your taxes.  In a thread a few mos. ago, their Rep. said they will give you an appraisal for 80% of the original  retail price.  Of course, if you are audited and have a phony appraisal, you would be in deep doo doo.  Once Tuggers pointed out to him that he was posting on an open forum about creating fraudulent tax documents, he deleted all his posts and quit posting.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 23, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> No - the $1,800 goes to Donate for a Cause - it's their fee - it doesn't go to charity.  Their in-house appraiser gives you an inflated appraisal for your taxes.  In a thread a few mos. ago, their Rep. said they will give you an appraisal for 80% of the original  retail price.  Of course, if you are audited and have a phony appraisal, you would be in deep doo doo.  Once Tuggers pointed out to him that he was posting on an open forum about creating fraudulent tax documents, he deleted all his posts and quit posting.



But isn't Donate For a Cause the non-profit charity here? When you donate through DFC doesn't the week go in to their name? If that is the case and they are not the qualified charity, then no amount of money would be able to be taken as a charitable expense.


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## Dr.K (Jan 23, 2011)

AwayWeGo said:


> what's wrong with increasing the maintenance fees accordingly ?
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​[/FONT][/SIZE]



AwayWeGo,

I was referring to Sparty's reference in post #7 about HOA's jacking up MFs (don't remember exact words).

I inferred from Sparty's post that high MFs are a legitimate reason to renege on the obligation to pay MFs.  Even if it is wrong to raise MF to a high level (and I'm not saying it is), it does not make reneging on an legal obligation acceptable.


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## DeniseM (Jan 23, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> But isn't Donate For a Cause the non-profit charity here? When you donate through DFC doesn't the week go in to their name? If that is the case and they are not the qualified charity, then no amount of money would be able to be taken as a charitable expense.





> Who is Donate For A Cause?
> Donate For A Cause is an assumed business name of Project Philanthropy, Inc. a 501(c)(3) District of Columbia not-for-profit organization. Our Tax I.D. or EIN # is 20-4862885.



DFC donates money to charities out of the proceeds from the TS's they sell.  The $1,800 is not donated - $1,800 goes cover their costs - according to them.

It's a matter of public record that only about 30% of their earnings actually goes to charity.   

Here is a current thread on the topic


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## Big Matt (Jan 23, 2011)

That's YOUR risk.  People take that risk every time they buy a timeshare, but nobody ever pays attention.  Nobody thinks that any individual, resort, etc. will ever default, but it happens all the time.  

I don't like it, but I'm OKAY with it because that's how it works.  I knew the risks when I bought.

Don't get me started about leaving keys on the counter with mortgages and houses.....it's the same thing, totally legal, but not necessarily ethical.




DeniseM said:


> The reason that it's offensive is that YOU and I will be paying his MF when he (intentionally) defaults - are you OK with that?


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## chkvtzn (Jan 25, 2011)

What if someone bought a TS in a trust that they controlled? They could rent the unit from the trust every year, presumably at a price equal to all the fees so that the trust would have no tax consequence. If fees got too high, or if Marriott took away rights and privileges (like they have), and the TS could not be sold, the trust could go bankrupt without much consequence. No?


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## DeniseM (Jan 25, 2011)

chkvtzn said:


> What if someone bought a TS in a trust that they controlled? They could rent the unit from the trust every year, presumably at a price equal to all the fees so that the trust would have no tax consequence. If fees got too high, or if Marriott took away rights and privileges (like they have), and the TS could not be sold, the trust could go bankrupt without much consequence. No?



That still drops the responsibility for paying the maintenance in the laps of the other owners who have not defaulted - please read the other posts in this thread.


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## Latravel (Jan 25, 2011)

I believe a timeshare is always a risk and definitely not an investment.  You are risking that your timeshare is worth less than your purchase price and that your maintenance fee's will go up to a point higher than renting.  These may indeed happen.

If you are that adverse to risk, just rent.  If you really think too deeply about this purchase, it's not for you.


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## larryallen (Jan 25, 2011)

_What if someone bought a TS in a trust that they controlled? They could rent the unit from the trust every year, presumably at a price equal to all the fees so that the trust would have no tax consequence. If fees got too high, or if Marriott took away rights and privileges (like they have), and the TS could not be sold, the trust could go bankrupt without much consequence. No?_

Yes, you could do an irrevocable trust, with no other assets, have the trust buy the timeshare with cash, and do as you say. It would probably work. However, still set up costs involved. That's what I do for a living and I would charge you at least $1,500. Doesn't seem worth it.


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## tuckersmom (Jan 27, 2011)

*What Happens if I stop paying...*

Hi All,

Been awhile since I was on here, and like many of you, I am looking for a way out of my timeshare.  TS is paid off, less than $1k annual maint fees, but simply can not continue making payments.  I've been doing my research, tried donating and other means (giving it away on Craigslist) with no luck.  

However, I did find this article - What Happens If I Stop Paying My Timeshare - and there are a few hundred people who've commented about their experiences with stopping payments.  Depending on the resort some have been offered a Deed in Lieu of Foreclosure and others have found the timeshare listed as 'abandoned' according to the IRS.  I've been inspired into (in)action and am going to be stopping payment this month - and wish you all luck!!


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## DeniseM (Jan 27, 2011)

Why is it that you've only posted on TUG twice, and both times you posted links to the same very questionable commercial websites - i.e. Spam?

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=511181#post511181


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## wof45 (Jan 27, 2011)

I think it is interesting information,but maybe not for MVC owners who own something that can be sold.  Just think how bad it would be to own something that is falling apart but still raising the MF.  I think that is a vicious circles for low end TS, since once some people stop paying, others need to cover the total expenses and MF keeps rising since fewer are paying.

For MVC, this could become a problem for bronze seasons that pay the same MF as platinum weeks.  We have heard many times from tuggers that it is cheaper to buy a getaway from II than pay the MF on a trader week for off season.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 27, 2011)

wof45 said:


> For MVC, this could become a problem for bronze seasons that pay the same MF as platinum weeks.  We have heard many times from tuggers that it is cheaper to buy a getaway from II than pay the MF on a trader week for off season.



The problem is that it won't just be the other bronze week owners that are paying that are hurt. All owners will be hurt if a significant number of people in low seasons just walk away.


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## tuckersmom (Jan 28, 2011)

Denise,

I may not post much, but can assure you I am a frequent lurker   I've been reading a long, long time about what to do instead of timeshare foreclosure and thought that page would help some people.  Sorry if it came off as spammy..


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## DeniseM (Jan 28, 2011)

That is not a reputable company or website, and posting a link to it twice, looks suspicious.


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## larryallen (Jan 28, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> That is not a reputable company or website, and posting a link to it twice, looks suspicious.




I am not an expert like you but to call that "not a reputable company" seems like a stretch in my opinion. It appears to be a blog with some interesting information for TS novices like me. Seriously, look through some of the posts and they are very informative. It's sort of like a website for people to share information about their timeshare experiences... ohhhhhh, sort of like tugg!?


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## DeniseM (Jan 28, 2011)

First of all, notice that they call themselves "RCI VIP" - ring a bell?  They have nothing to do with RCI - they just "borrowed" the name to make themselves look Legit.

Secondly - Look at the Ads on the website - they are ALL for upfront fee companies:
1)  The will take your TS off your hand for a large upfront fee
2)  They will sell your TS for a large upfront fee
3)  They will get you out of your contract or get your money back from a scammer for a large upfront fee

At best - this website is well-intentioned, but uninformed.

At worst - it's just a front for the upfront fee companies.

One more issue - the article that was linked above was written in 2008 - Things have changed dramatically in the TS world in the last 3 years, and the advice is quite out of date.  





> Tuckers mom:  there are a few hundred people who've commented about their experiences with stopping payments. Depending on the resort some have been offered a Deed in Lieu of Foreclosure and others have found the timeshare listed as 'abandoned' according to the IRS.


Tuckersmom read this article from 2008 and she's decided to stop making her payments, but in her 2nd post (#65) she talks about "what to do instead of timeshare foreclosure."  Well stopping your payments in exactly what you do to go into timeshare foreclosure!  I think she is going to be very disappointed if she expects the resort to give her a free pass if she quits making payments.  Maybe in 2008 - not in 2011!


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## wof45 (Jan 28, 2011)

I have to agree with larryallen that I think your comments are wrong.

They say "Mission - RCIVIP was built with the intention of informing as many people of the high pressure timeshare sales tactics that are used on unsuspecting vacationers."

If you read their forum, it does sound a lot like the comments of many of the people here about the Marriott DC program, and the MVC bashers.

It might even be interesting to start a thread asking if a resale owner actually has any requirement to continue making MF payments, since they didn't sign any agreement with Marriott, didn't sign the deed granting them title or sign anything that requires continued on-going payments.  That is pretty close to the beginning of this thread.


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## DeniseM (Jan 28, 2011)

wof45 - The posts from owners are fine - but the website sponsors Ads from the same upfront fee companies that we expose on TUG.  That's indefensible


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## wof45 (Jan 28, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> wof45 - The posts from owners are fine - but the website sponsors Ads from the same upfront fee companies that we expose on TUG.  That's indefensible



Hi DeniseM --
I'm running adblock on my FireFox, so I probably just don't see any ads that are there.


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## wof45 (Jan 28, 2011)

wof45 said:


> Hi DeniseM --
> I'm running adblock on my FireFox, so I probably just don't see any ads that are there.



yup -- it does say that it blocked 5 items on that page.


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## DeniseM (Jan 28, 2011)

That explains it - here's a sample - these Ads are all on just the one page that the OP linked to above-

Sell Your Timeshare Here No Longer Want Your Timeshare? Sell it Today, For Cash… TimeshareLuxury. com/Timeshares

Get Out Of Your Timeshare Guaranteed exit program. No hidden or upfront fees. A+ Rating w/ BBB. GiveBackTimeshare .com

Get Rid of Your Timeshare We Have a Guaranteed Exit Program! Licensed-Insured-Bonded Since 1999 TimeshareOut. com

Can't Sell Your TimeshareTimeshareComplaints. com
      Guaranteed Exit Program! No Hidden or Upfront Fees...

By Owner Timeshare Resalewww.TimeshareRegister. com
      What is your timeshare worth? Free Instant Price Analysis!

Refinancing Credit ScoreRefinancing.LoanReduce. com
      Lowest Refinancing 2.75% - Save Now No Hidden Fees. Compare Quotes 

Lowest Fee to Cancel $800www.timesharecancel. com
      Legally Cancel Contract Money Back Guarantee​


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## Bee (Jan 28, 2011)

The website looks like it repost timeshare articles with subject matter that will lead people there, who are searching for answers to timeshare questions. I have to agree with Denise that the site's intent is highly questionable at best.


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## dan_hoog (Jan 28, 2011)

They are trying to get links into a page so google passes more value to it's outbound pages. Simple page rank and linkbuilding. 

At a minimum, I would recommend moderators edit the post so it is not a link, remove the http. This removes the seo value.


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## timeos2 (Jan 28, 2011)

*Maybe light at the end of the PCC tunnel at last*

Thankfully I've heard from very reliable sources recently that (finally) many States / Resorts are formulating a plan to cut the legs out from the PCC and the scammers who take thousands from owners with the intent to abandon or sell for $1 units - eventually leaving the resorts other owners holding the bag for those that paid thousands to "get out".

It is a combination of things like refusing transfers from known individuals and/or companies that have a record of non-payment of fees, higher trnasfer fees that include prepayment of fees and - maybe the best one -  prosecution of the OWNERS who use the sham companies (yes, those that get hooked for the thousands up front)- as well as the owners of and the companies themselves - for federal violations of racketeering acts. 

These are serious, criminal charges. A few of those and the "market" for shams to abandon property to LLc', trusts and sham corporations set up only to fail will be gone.  This may work to kill the market for these "services" and it's under development right now. The das of the crooked PCC may be over before too much longer. Like Wastegate, no one but the slime that run them will be sorry they are gone to a footnote in history.  

Those that can do something about it have heard us hat this is a terrible blight on the whole industry and are actively working to find a cure. Keep watching.


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## DeniseM (Jan 28, 2011)

Thanks Dan - Are you referring to the link in post #61?  (I broke the link in both posts.)


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## rthib (Jan 28, 2011)

wof45 said:


> I have to agree with larryallen that I think your comments are wrong.
> 
> It might even be interesting to start a thread asking if a resale owner actually has any requirement to continue making MF payments, since they didn't sign any agreement with Marriott, didn't sign the deed granting them title or sign anything that requires continued on-going payments.  That is pretty close to the beginning of this thread.



This is Real Estate 101 and probably the most common question asked about time shares.

When you take title of the property, you are bound by all the covenants of the property, which included the fees to the HOA.

If you don't pay, they can for foreclose on the property which will trash your credit and then go after you for the difference between what you owe and what it sells at auction.

Also, depending on where the property is, there is also taxes to the state.  They are even less friendly than the HOA when you don't pay.

As other have said, the people who get hurt when this happens are not the Company running the Time Share.  They still get paid the same, just now everyone else is required to pay your share plus legal costs.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 28, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> Thankfully I've heard from very reliable sources recently that (finally) many States / Resorts are formulating a plan to cut the legs out from the PCC and the scammers who take thousands from owners with the intent to abandon or sell for $1 units - eventually leaving the resorts other owners holding the bag for those that paid thousands to "get out".
> 
> It is a combination of things like refusing transfers from known individuals and/or companies that have a record of non-payment of fees, higher trnasfer fees that include prepayment of fees and - maybe the best one -  prosecution of the OWNERS who use the sham companies (yes, those that get hooked for the thousands up front)- as well as the owners of and the companies themselves - for federal violations of racketeering acts.
> 
> ...



I am not sure that the demise of PCC is such a good thing. Sure they do pray on desperate people. However, they do provide a service, sure owners can ultimately do the same thing these PCCs do when they step in to unload a week. Sure, the desperate owners can list their weeks for $1 on eBay, but honestly how many know they can, know how, or want to go through the effort?

Do you think the resorts and developers are going to educate them on how to sell their week for $1?

PCCs provide owners with an out, these are owners that are or would likely otherwise go in to default on their MFs. When a PCC steps in they sell that week to a MF paying owner. If there is no PCC, who is going to be on the hook for those defaulted owner's MF? The rest of they paying wners?

I wouldn't be so happy about PCCs becoming a footnote in history.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 28, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> That explains it - here's a sample - these Ads are all on just the one page that the OP linked to above-
> 
> Sell Your Timeshare Here No Longer Want Your Timeshare? Sell it Today, For Cash… TimeshareLuxury. com/Timeshares
> 
> ...



To be fair, the website utilizes Google Ads to feed these ads. The ads are not directly placed there by the website operators. These same ads would appear on TUG if Brian did not take the effort to have them marked to not show up on the site.

Google Ads are fed to a site based on it's content alone, nothing more. An operator can review the websites in the ads and indicate not to show ones they find objectionable.

I think it is unfair to judge a website based on the Google Ads that are fed to their Google Ads.


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## DeniseM (Jan 28, 2011)

We will have to agree to disagree on that - IMHO, it's hypocritical to state that you are a pro-consumer website and then allow every scammer in the country to have a google Ad on your website.

Another thing I noticed is that the owner of this website has dozens of websites with google Ads - a cottage industry perhaps?


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## dioxide45 (Jan 28, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> We will have to agree to disagree on that - IMHO, it's hypocritical to state that you are a pro-consumer website and then allow every scammer in the country to have a google Ad on your website.
> 
> Another thing I noticed is that the owner of this website has dozens of websites with google Ads - a cottage industry perhaps?



Google Ads can prove to be a valuable revenue stream that can help cover the costs to maintain a website. Having multiple sites with Google Ads isn't unusual. I am not sure why there is something wrong with using Google Ads, many major news networks and nation wide media outlets use Google Ads or other types of ad feeds as an additional revenue stream.


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## DeniseM (Jan 28, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> I wouldn't be so happy about PCCs becoming a footnote in history.



What about the companies that simply take the owner's upfront feet and ride off into the sunset?  

What about the companies that promise to get your money back from the previous scammer, or get you out of your legal contract?

No service there!

IMNSHO - If you are going to present yourself as a consumer advocate, then you need to hold yourself to a higher standard when it comes to the material you allow on your site.  Just like TUG does.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 28, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> What about the companies that simply take the owner's upfront feet and ride off into the sunset?
> 
> What about the companies that promise to get your money back from the previous scammer, or get you out of your legal contract?
> 
> No service there!



I think this was taken out of context. The post that this was included in was in response specifically to John's post about PCCs. It had nothing to do with the website in question or other business models. Only traditional PCCs that take an fee and unload a week for an owner that doesn't think they have any other way out or doesn't want to spend the time to find the way.



> IMNSHO - If you are going to present yourself as a consumer advocate, then you need to hold yourself to a higher standard when it comes to the material you allow on your site.  Just like TUG does.



I am not sure where the website indicates they are a consumer advocate or where that was even mentioned in the posts where the link was provided. It provides blogs, articles and even a web forum (just like TUG but without the critical mass). There is nothing wrong with providing this information. Could they make more of an effort to filter their Google Ads? Yes, but does that mean they are trying to rip TS owners off, IMO, I don't think so.


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## DeniseM (Jan 29, 2011)

This is the chain of events:

A link was posted to RCIXXX.com

I checked it out and was surprised because:
1.  The article posted in the link is from 2008
2.  The poster's comments about the article and her plan to default on her MF to avoid foreclosure seemed odd (designed to get people to click on the link.)
3.  The website is covered with google Ads for less than sterling companies

Then I went back to find that the ONLY other time this poster has posted on TUG, was to post a link to the same website.
1. The first time she posted, was the same day she register for TUG.
2.  She used the search function to find an old thread to post her link in.

I drew certain conclusions - YMMV


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## wof45 (Jan 29, 2011)

rthib said:


> This is Real Estate 101 and probably the most common question asked about time shares.
> 
> When you take title of the property, you are bound by all the covenants of the property, which included the fees to the HOA.
> 
> ...



We have all heard this, but how much of it is really true.

Most states will foreclose on the property to collect taxes, and the debt is paid.

Once the resort forecloses for MF, do they really have a claim on the former owner, especially if no contract was signed, or is this an unenforceable claim that could not be won in court?


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