# I am Going to be Eating my Words



## dioxide45 (May 21, 2011)

As vocal as I have been about the $1995 ransom... errr DC enrollment fee, it seems that we are about ready to fork it over before the June 30th deadline. Trust me, we aren't happy to have to hand over $1995 to enroll our two gold Orlando resale weeks.

The fact that there will no longer be any Marriott inventory in II, and that Marriott is leaving II along with the fact that Marriott will only cater to DC owners in the future, we have opted to enroll. Okay that last part was a joke based on everything the sales reps will tell you. Really, our two weeks only garner 4125 points when combined, so it seems unlikely that we will ever convert to points. The consolidated fee is really the sole reason we would be enrolling. We have figured the consolidated fee will pay for itself in a little less than four years.

I am curious if it there are any pro/cons to enrolling now vs. closer to the deadline. We have four reservations using both of our weeks locked off. The reservations are all for the end of May 2012 and haven't been deposited in II yet.

Pros for Waiting

We really don't know what we will do with the PlusPoints, so waiting until the day before the deadline will extend the one year life of those points as long as possible. 
If Marriott changes the enrollment rules (reduces price, ups the incentives) after 6/30, we could always rescind and re-enroll. If they dropped the price significantly but also removed the PlusPoints, I would rather pay a lower fee and lose the points.
Cons to Waiting

Our reservations for late May will be almost two months past the date when we are able to deposit in to the new corporate account. I don't think that will effect trade power but don't want to hinder trade power by waiting too long. How long does II usually take to get the new account setup?

Is there anything I am missing. The only other con to it all is we will be out $1995.

Okay Dan, your next.


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## NJMOM2 (May 21, 2011)

Congradulations, I am sure you will be happy with your decision.

Everybody always complains about the skim but I would like to point out the fact that reservation at Harbour Lake in May uses 1725 points for a 2 bedroom reservation.  I also have a Harbour Lake gold and I got 1950 points for my unit.  If you are going to make reservations in May for personal use (or to rent) the skim is in your favor.  I happen to like Florida in the Spring and Fall - not too hot and warm enough to swim.

I can find a similar example for my OceanWatch unit.


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## dioxide45 (May 21, 2011)

NJMOM2 said:


> Congradulations, I am sure you will be happy with your decision.
> 
> Everybody always complains about the skim but I would like to point out the fact that reservation at Harbour Lake in May uses 1725 points for a 2 bedroom reservation.  I also have a Harbour Lake gold and I got 1950 points for my unit.  If you are going to make reservations in May for personal use (or to rent) the skim is in your favor.  I happen to like Florida in the Spring and Fall - not too hot and warm enough to swim.
> 
> I can find a similar example for my OceanWatch unit.



True; however, it is very easy for us to also lock off our 2BR at Harbour Lake and then exchange the studio or 1BR side back in to a 2BR at Harbour Lake in May. So I think II is still the superior trading vehicle as this strategy leaves us with another week to use not just a couple hundred points.

We also love traveling to Florida in the Spring (May) and the fall (Oct, Nov). Weather is best, airfare and car rentals are cheaper, and best of all, kids are at a minimum


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## NJMOM2 (May 21, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> True; however, it is very easy for us to also lock off our 2BR at Harbour Lake and then exchange the studio or 1BR side back in to a 2BR at Harbour Lake in May. So I think II is still the superior trading vehicle as this strategy leaves us with another week to use not just a couple hundred points.



True - We never locked off out Harbour Lake and tried that.  I still travel with 2 kids (1 less this Nov. as the oldest goes off to college).  I wasn't thinking of that as an option for Harbour Lake.  However OceanWatch doesn't lock off and I can still find weeks in my gold season that use less points than I get to make a reservation in mid Sept. among other weeks.  I can also finds places I would want to go that uses less points for one week than I get for each of my resorts.  So the skim can still work to our advantage when we are flexable and learn to work the new system.  (One day when I am not working around the school calendar   )


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## dougp26364 (May 22, 2011)

opps......


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## BocaBoy (May 22, 2011)

What is the June 30 deadline you are enrolling to beat?


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## TJCNewYork (May 22, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> Is there anything I am missing.



Since the launch of DC a year ago, official communications promote increased "flexibility" as the primary benefit of enrolling.  To the contrary, sales presentations have been dominated by veiled threats - like the shrinkage of available II inventory or the separation of MVC from II.  Are you moving forward because you perceive key benefits equal to or exceeding $1995?


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## kjd (May 22, 2011)

I fully appreciate the OP's position.  I felt and still feel the same way.  While I have a different reason for paying the $1,995 it still amounts to the same thing.  My reason for joining had nothing to do with the ridiculous and outright lies the sales staff is telling legacy owners.  It's the fact that we are legacy owners and will eventually have to pass the units on to our children who will share them. We felt the new system is easier for them to handle and more understandable. If they want to sell the units then that's their business.  It's still a ripoff of Marriott customers.

The savings on transactions are about the only good thing to say about it for us.  The notion that combining points is an advantage is nothing more than a price increase to get what you should have gotten through a trade.  

Additionally, the travel options seem great until you check the prices for the same trips with other companies.  Since we don't know the future of the old program we felt it was best to join the new one.


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## OutAndAbout (May 22, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> [*]We really don't know what we will do with the PlusPoints, so waiting until the day before the deadline will extend the one year life of those points as long as possible.



I understood that PlusPoints are good through Dec of the following year.  We enrolled in Sept and ours are good through Dec the following year, a total of 16 months.

Maybe PlusPoint expiration vary for the first half & second half of the year, or Q1/Q2/Q3/Q4?


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## dougp26364 (May 22, 2011)

TJCNewYork said:


> Since the launch of DC a year ago, official communications promote increased "flexibility" as the primary benefit of enrolling.  To the contrary, sales presentations have been dominated by veiled threats - like the shrinkage of available II inventory or the separation of MVC from II.  Are you moving forward because you perceive key benefits equal to or exceeding $1995?



The major potential benefit is possibly having a favored status with the exchange coordinator when requesting exchanges. As I understand it, there is an agreement that allows the exchange coordinator first crack at Marriott resort weeks in order to facilitate Marriott to Marriott exchanges or, points reservations. All others get what's left over. 

Of course, the big question remains, is this a real benefit of being an enrolled owner or, is it a preceived benefit based on sales staff scare tactics? I know that the three exchanges/reseravtions I've made since enrolling have been requests rather than instant online exchanges and, they've been filled in just a couple of days. Would this also be the case if I was not an enrolled member? Maybe, maybe not. It's going to take time to figure out what's real and what's and what's sales hype. The problem is, with deadlines imposed, who has the time to figure out reality vs fantasy?


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## dioxide45 (May 22, 2011)

BocaBoy said:


> What is the June 30 deadline you are enrolling to beat?



June 30th is the date that MVCI has extended their current pricing and incentives through. It is possible that they can announce they will extend the pricing further, who knows. They could also end enrollments at that point.



OutAndAbout said:


> I understood that PlusPoints are good through Dec of the following year.  We enrolled in Sept and ours are good through Dec the following year, a total of 16 months.
> 
> Maybe PlusPoint expiration vary for the first half & second half of the year, or Q1/Q2/Q3/Q4?



PlusPoinst earned after December 31, 2010 are only good for one year from when they are deposited to your account. So holding off on enrolling as long as possible should extend their life as long as possible.


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## pedro47 (May 22, 2011)

Is it a true fact that Marriott is leaviing II?   It was my understanding that  Marriott renew their contract with II this year.


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## KathyPet (May 22, 2011)

I enrolled in Jan 2011.  I was clearly told that I have one year from my enrollment date  to actually travel on my Plus points.  No extensions of time are available.  That actually affected our plans for St. Kitts in 2012 as we like to go in Feb but booked our week for the third week of Jan and then used our bonus points to add some nights just barely squeaking under the deadline wire.


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## dioxide45 (May 22, 2011)

pedro47 said:


> Is it a true fact that Marriott is leaviing II?   It was my understanding that  Marriott renew their contract with II this year.



No this is not true. It was a joke inserted in to my OP.


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## Retired TSO (May 22, 2011)

We enrolled in March 2011 and our bonus points expire in March 2012...
I have used up 600 out of the 800 already, so only 200 left to use. I am even considering buying a few points for a 3-4 days weekday getaway to Phoenix in Jan/Feb. 2012..I found the points to work well for short getaways..


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## SueDonJ (May 22, 2011)

Welcome to the Borg, Dioxide.  :hysterical: 

It's great that TUG gives us all an opportunity to learn from others how the DC works (or doesn't!) and whether it's a good fit for us each individually.  I don't think there is one owner on this board who thinks that every single thing related to the DC is a good thing, that's for sure.

About your new/corporate II account?  When the DC was first rolled-out it was taking up to 3-4 weeks for the new accounts to be set up and running, but I think that time period has been shortened to 1-2 weeks with fewer problems.  Just watch your II sign-in page and your Profile page on your my-vacationclub.com account for the new number, and be careful the first few times that you're depositing your week(s) into the correct account.  Also, be aware that whatever AC's you're issued for enrolling will be deposited into your old/individual II account and you'll have to pay the fees to use them.  (IF you can use them - they have the most restricted grids of any AC's and the restrictions aren't lifted during flexchange.)


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## dioxide45 (May 22, 2011)

SueDonJ said:


> Also, be aware that whatever AC's you're issued for enrolling will be deposited into your old/individual II account and you'll have to pay the fees to use them.  (IF you can use them - they have the most restricted grids of any AC's and the restrictions aren't lifted during flexchange.)



I am not sure we will be given any ACs for our enrollment? Our II account won't be eligible for cancellation when we enroll as we have an exchange confirmation for October. Our II membership is only paid through August 2012.


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## GregT (May 22, 2011)

Dioxide,

I think you're making the right decision -- frankly, I think any TUGger who is debating it should bite the bullet and enroll.

Each of us have different reasons for wanting to enroll and also for being reluctant to enroll.    Howevever, for that person sitting on the fence, I do believe that there is an intangible benefit to being enrolled.

As an example, I've noticed with Worldmark that many things changed on November 5, 2006 (the date they introduced Travelshare) and that the existing owners prior to that date were grandfathered in and "enjoyed the benefits" -- such as they are -- of the new system.  Owners after that date have to buy in.

I feel the same thing will happen with Marriott and we won't really recognize it until 5 years down the road.  Owners as of June 20, 2010 (who enrolled) will have a modestly more useful week and alternatives than owners who didn't enroll.   They may get better II trades and also receive "little perks" such as the ability to book discounted inventory close to check-in.

I also don't expect to redeem my weeks for points and I'm exploring other ways to obtain points (renting points, renting my lock-off for points, and acquiring points via Direct Exchanges of HGVC reservations, etc).    I think Marriott's properties are the best and the point system is a very good one (even with the bizarre points chart).    Finally, I think SpinCo will have to be very creative and being enrolled may give us access to whatever they do.

So....congrats on the decision, and we'll see how this develops over time.

Best,

Greg


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## SueDonJ (May 22, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure we will be given any ACs for our enrollment? Our II account won't be eligible for cancellation when we enroll as we have an exchange confirmation for October. Our II membership is only paid through August 2012.



If you have between 1 year and 35 months remaining you should get one AC.  I don't think it matters if you have a pending exchange but I don't think so.


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## dougp26364 (May 22, 2011)

Retired TSO said:


> We enrolled in March 2011 and our bonus points expire in March 2012...
> I have used up 600 out of the 800 already, so only 200 left to use. I am even considering buying a few points for a 3-4 days weekday getaway to Phoenix in Jan/Feb. 2012..I found the points to work well for short getaways..



That is what's great about points. The flexablity they provide for travel plans. If only Marriott hadn't decided to give me fewer points than it required to reserve our unit at our home resort, we'd be very excited about this new program. 

As it is, I can't convert my home resort to points and even have enough points to reserve the master suite, let alone have points left over from the studio unit that we will not use. Because of the so-called skim, Marriott has essentially eliminated us from using points as a method of exchange/reservations. IMHO, this was extremely short sighted and very poor planning on Marriott's part.


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## TJCNewYork (May 22, 2011)

dougp26364 said:


> The major potential benefit is possibly having a favored status. Of course, the big question remains, is this a real benefit of being an enrolled owner or, is it a preceived benefit based on sales staff scare tactics?



Striking a parallel, in Marriott Rewards, 'favored status' is achieved by the number of paid stays.  For example, elite members who achieve 75+ paid nights earn Platinum Elite status. The benefits are self-explanatory and easily understood.

Veiled threats and scare tactics can have a mixed effect on sales. As many TUGers have already noted and dioxide's "joke" makes clear; scare tactics diminish the credibility of sales undermining trust which is absolutely essential for a successful transaction, IMHO.


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## billymach4 (May 22, 2011)

GregT said:


> Dioxide,
> 
> I think you're making the right decision -- frankly, I think any TUGger who is debating it should bite the bullet and enroll.
> 
> ...



You all have really been drinking the Kool Aid. 

I must say for me at this point I have been able to justify not joining. I like the money in my bank account better than contributing to Marriott's acct.


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## TJCNewYork (May 23, 2011)

billymach4 said:


> I must say for me at this point I have been able to justify not joining.



Ditto.  Thank you for posting that, it is very reassuring to know that  at least one other person (other than my spouse) is not indulging in the  'kool aid'.  

To restate an earlier comment, the perceived scare tactics especially  reduced II inventory and the separation of MVC from II widened my lack  of confidence in DC being successfully integrated into the product mix,  and diminished the positive value experienced with the weeks-based, home  resort legacy product.  

Bottom line, the sales presentations have utterly failed to provide a  sense of benefit, perception of value and/or basis of trust to move  forward with enrollment or any DC sales transaction.  To that point,  subsequent marketing collateral received via post and e-mail;  interactions with owner services as well as II agents; plus reassurance  from TUGers about statutory protection of the usage options written into  our deeded contract agreement reinforces the "status quo"  (non-enrollment) as a safe harbor.


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## BocaBoy (May 23, 2011)

SueDonJ said:


> If you have between 1 year and 35 months remaining you should get one AC.  I don't think it matters if you have a pending exchange but I don't think so.


I had a week on deposit with II when I joined the DC last summer and I got an AC from II when I joined.  Used it for an off-season Christmas season week at Manor Club.


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## GregT (May 23, 2011)

billymach4 said:


> You all have really been drinking the Kool Aid.
> 
> I must say for me at this point I have been able to justify not joining. I like the money in my bank account better than contributing to Marriott's acct.



Billy,

I re-read my quote and am not sure what I said that generated the Kool Aid reference.  Perhaps you didn't mean that to be insulting.  That's what I will think, that you did not mean it to be insulting.

I'm glad that you have been able to justify not joining -- you too, TJCNewYork.   This is a personal decision that each person has to be comfortable with.

I still believe that anyone who is on the fence should enroll, and that in 5 years, they will not regret it.

This is not based on anything a sales person has said -- this is based upon my personal experiments that I've been conducting for the last 11 months (renting points out to pay 100% of my MFs, trade experiments with the DClub II account versus the legacy II account -- which favored the DClub II account, experiments on combining a Studio and a 1BR to create a 2BR at a much cheaper point cost, experiments on probing inventory depth and finding inventory in DClub and not II).   

Based upon these (and based upon my experience with 3 other point systems), I believe that even a single week owner of a Bronze Summit Watch consider enrolling.   They can rent points.  Maybe someday they can rent points for $0.20 per point, I don't know.  If they own an HGVC property, maybe they can reserve a week on the Big Island and instead of renting it for $2,000, they'll trade it to a Marriott owner for 4,000 points since Marriott doesn't have a Big Island property.   They just created 4,000 points for the cost of their MFs in HGVC, and the Marriott owner now goes to Big Island in a Hilton property.   Or goes to Harborside, or Westin St. John, using Marriott points.

Points create possibilities.  These are not the types of things that are discussed in a sales meeting, so I won't take offense to the kool aid reference.

Best,

Greg


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## Mr. Vker (May 23, 2011)

deleted--sorry wrong thread


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## dioxide45 (May 23, 2011)

billymach4 said:


> You all have really been drinking the Kool Aid.
> 
> I must say for me at this point I have been able to justify not joining. I like the money in my bank account better than contributing to Marriott's acct.





TJCNewYork said:


> Ditto.  Thank you for posting that, it is very reassuring to know that  at least one other person (other than my spouse) is not indulging in the  'kool aid'.



I would be interested in hearing about your justifications for not joining. We haven't enrolled yet and we pained over the decision for quite some time. There was no Kool-Aid involved either .

For us it was about the a-la-carte fees. I am curious what justifications that others have found for not joining?


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## dioxide45 (May 23, 2011)

GregT said:


> Points create possibilities.  These are not the types of things that are discussed in a sales meeting, so I won't take offense to the kool aid reference.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



One other thing that we did take in to consideration is the potential to be able to purchase resale trust weeks in the future. I would never consider purchasing them direct due to theme being so expensive. However, on the future resale market (if one ever develops), they could be a good deal. The MF is cheaper than what we will be paying on our legacy points. The fact that we will already be enrolled would hopefully make us exempt from having to pay the DC Exchange Company initiation fee.

Of course we really don't know what MVCI's policy will be on this, so it only had very little weight on our decision. However, if a market does develop, I think it will be cheaper to buy resale trust points as an enrolled owner than an unenrolled one.


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## puckmanfl (May 23, 2011)

good morning....

The Kool Aid is going to taste mighty fine from my 3 bedroom OF unit at Kauai Lagoons this week.

Just to recap some "puckology" (MVCD version) to those that are new to these here parts!!! (Dioxide, Sue, Dan, m6 and of course GregT) and all of the other regulars can turn off their sets here!!!

I needed three bedrooms for my family for the Hawaii gig.  I have 2 eoy odd Waiohai's, giving me 4 bedrooms and 2 units for this trip.  I took my 2 IV units and snagged 8450 pts.  Took these and got 1 3 bedroom at KL.  I also upgraded the view to OF.  Took the other 1450 pts, kept the change and used this for 2/3 of my 5 nites at Summitt Watch last Feb!  This gave  me 2 concurrent units in plat ski season!!

Next year, I have 2 concurrent Mountainside units in January....

I am sitting pretty  with 2 Surfwatch sumer deals  7/30-8/5 2011 and a Memorial day weekend 2012...

There is a continuing thread regarding lack of HHI summer weeks.  

I did all of this with some Hawaii and GV (Orlando) weeks.  I feel like a HHI and ski owner because I made reservations with date and time certainty.

Please tell me how one can take 2 (2 bedrooms) and converted them into a 3 and 1, or grab concurrent units at the same joint using II as we know it!!!

The Kool Aid is tastin' really good now!!!

Yes, I know i am a dummy developer purchaser that only paid $695 for this.  The 800 plus points took care of that!!  I have saved over $500 this year in exchange/lock off and cancellation fees!!!

Ooops, I forgot   The AC is snagged for joining up as my II was already paid for, was turned  into a  2 bedroom 8/20-8/27 at Lakeshore reserve...

I'll take some caviar with that Kool Aid please!!!!

It will really go down smooth if my Bolts can win 2 of 3!!! but that's a different thread!!!


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## dougp26364 (May 23, 2011)

billymach4 said:


> You all have really been drinking the Kool Aid.
> 
> I must say for me at this point I have been able to justify not joining. I like the money in my bank account better than contributing to Marriott's acct.



This program is definately NOT for everyone. IMHO, single week owners might not get enough benefit out of the progam to make it cost effective, even if they trade every year. Single week owners who lock-off and trade both halves might see a break even point in a few years. Mult. week owners will generally come out better and, multiple week owners with lock-off units will probably fare the best. 

If we owned only one non lock-off week, it wouldn't even be a consideration for us. However, we own two units and both of those units lock-off. We tend to use the master suite for one, reserve and make a request first exchange with the master suite of the other and exchange both lock-off units. That's three exchanges/year plus two lock-off fee's and that easily justifies the additional $199/year fee for us.


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## Swice (May 23, 2011)

*Sheep*

I'm about to go in to be sheared!

Haven't joined yet.    About to give in.

We leave next week for two weeks (Oceana Palms then to Sabel Palms).  

One hesitation:   I've scored big over the years with depositing the "right weeks."    I fear loss of trading power if I let Marriott deposit on my behalf.

So which presentation should I attend:   Oceana or Orlando?


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## GregT (May 23, 2011)

Swice said:


> I'm about to go in to be sheared!
> 
> Haven't joined yet.    About to give in.
> 
> ...



I don't believe you need to fear the loss of trading power -- if you are still using weeks (and II), you'll still reserve the week you want and then deposit it into II.   It's not like Starwood, who will pick the week to be deposited for you.

I don't know if Oceana or Orlando will be any different -- good luck and let us know what you hear!

Best,

Greg


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## pwrshift (May 23, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> As vocal as I have been about the $1995 ransom... errr DC enrollment fee, it seems that we are about ready to fork it over before the June 30th deadline. Trust me, we aren't happy to have to hand over $1995 to enroll our two gold Orlando resale weeks.
> .


 
I think it unfair to speculate about unconfirmed deadlines as there's already way too much concern about everything in this terrible launch by Marriott. It would have been so easy for them to launch a new program with a public welcome invitation to 400,000 committed TS supporters but they chose to slap us all in the face with complicated legal papers and a fee to join.

I'm afraid I just don't trust them any more. I've sold all 3003 of my MAR shares that I bought many years ago as a hedge each time I bought my direct units. *My hedge worked well...what I lost on the present values of my TS since their unveiled the DC plan I made up with the stock sale. 

The next step is probably to sell my TS I guess...which is something we'll all have to do one day. Originally I thought my kids would love to inherit them but how can I burden their young families to pay the $6000 in MF or whatever it is when I pass on? At least we've had some wonderful family trips to world class cities with biz class air while using MR points given (?) with buying pre-construction...and I've still got a ton of them to spend. 

I used to recommend Marriott TS to everyone I knew...but no longer do that...if anything I chase them away.

I bought direct to 'use' so trading a studio for a 2 bdrm is just an 'upgrade' game as I trade back into where I own. You can hardly buy a dinner for one for the $75 split fee, so why spend $2000 to save a pittance...and do it with gold weeks where Marriott has clearly shown how worthless they feel gold is on the DC plan. *Besides if you want to sell those weeks Marriott excludes the weeks from the plan. Good money after bad in my opinion.

Of course, everyone's vacation needs, ages and wealth positions differ greatly. It's been a good ride but I think I've fallen off the horse.

Brian


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## Pens_Fan (May 23, 2011)

I can see where it would work for others, but don't agree that everyone should buy into it.

I am the owner of a single week in Aruba.


We don't lock off, we have traded only once.  I don't see that we will make up the cost by savings in fees.

The amount of points that was given for my week would not get us another week anywhere that we would want to go.  I know, I could probably get three months in New Jersey in the winter, especially if I just avoid the weekends, but that doesn't seem like a deal for me.

I'm glad that others are happy with the new club, but it just isn't for me.


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## DanCali (May 23, 2011)

GregT said:


> I think you're making the right decision -- frankly, I think any TUGger who is debating it should bite the bullet and enroll.
> 
> ....
> 
> I also don't expect to redeem my weeks for points...



Hmm... sounds like a fabulous points system - the max benefits are reaped when not converting to points. 

I think I'll pass...

I too have debated if to enroll of not. Especially since we are moving and NCV will no longer be driving distance away. However, I've had good luck in renting NCV very easily at a nice premium to the cost of MFs. I'm happy to continue doing just that rather than deal with one of the lousiest points systems out there (Marriott). Relative to what I paid for those weeks, it's a great ROI.

I'm used to calling Starwood at 8 months out and getting what i want most of the time (excluding Harborside or St. John). I'm afraid Marriott's waitlist approach and skim factors will infuriate me every time I use points, so I'd rather stick with the Marriott weeks system which (at least until June 20, 2010) used to be great.


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## Whirl (May 23, 2011)

*My Choice - half in, half out!*

Well, I deliberated, mostly with myself, but from the beginning my instinct was to join. Now I have joined.  I own 7 weeks, 4 eligible and 3 ineligible. Joining for me is about flexibility, choice.... experimentation and a little blind faith. $1995 shared by 4 weeks, 2 developer and the rest resale, is not so much in the grand scheme of things and for OPTIONS, its worth a bit of the unknown. For me, one of the biggest potential benefits is that I do not like the uncertainty of exchanging. I prefer a guaranteed chosen view. If I don't get it, then I am no worse off than before, presumably, I have all the same options. 

I will truly know (eventually) what works best for our situation, since I will have identical weeks IN and OUT of the new DC plan. 

Congrats Dioxide, on coming to a decision that is right for you. Trust your instincts....you are no dummy as we all know from your articulate posts and you have evaluated your situation. You have options.


Best of Luck.


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## hotcoffee (May 23, 2011)

TJCNewYork said:


> . . . To restate an earlier comment, the perceived scare tactics especially  reduced II inventory . . . .



I would not consider this to be a scare tactic.  There cannot help but be less Marriott inventory in II now.  All of those Trust weeks, plus all of those non-Trust weeks that Marriott owns, plus all of the MRP trades will likely be late deposits now (assuming they are deposited at all) due to Marriott's running their own exchange program.  Not only that, but the Trust inventory is actually "owned" by Trust members and cannot be bulk deposited until it becomes clear that the weeks will go unused.

The II Marriott inventory will never completely dry up because there will always be weeks owners like yourself who will deposit.  Nevertheless, the loss of so many weeks that would have been bulk deposited had there been no DC program is likely become increasingly noticeable as the program continues to grow.


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## billymach4 (May 23, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> I would be interested in hearing about your justifications for not joining. We haven't enrolled yet and we pained over the decision for quite some time. There was no Kool-Aid involved either .
> 
> For us it was about the a-la-carte fees. I am curious what justifications that others have found for not joining?



Simple: I will continue to lock out deposit both sides and trade in II. I don't travel at peak times. I am not tied to a school calendar. My schedule so far has been flexible. For the most part I am limited to 2 travel weeks per year due to DW's dismal vacation benefits. 

Yes you will save on fees now and recoup the signup fees. But how can you be so sure that in 5 years time Marriott will not begin to impose internal exchange fees. 

In five years time you all will be locked in and hooked to the MVCD program. What recourse will you have if Marriott imposed a $75 exchange fee. Or a $99 deposit fee? 

In five years time I might be tired of the MVCI resorts. There is are no new development plans on the drawing board. If I can't get my Marriott exchanges in II, so be it. I can trade to the other premier resorts, or go to one of the independent exchanges. 

Marriott will not dictate to me my vacation rules.


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## billymach4 (May 23, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> I would be interested in hearing about your justifications for not joining. We haven't enrolled yet and we pained over the decision for quite some time. There was no Kool-Aid involved either .
> 
> For us it was about the a-la-carte fees. I am curious what justifications that others have found for not joining?



One more reason.

As some of you have indicated Marriott II inventory may diminish over time. It is my sincere belief that this will create a larger premium on II Marriott inventory. 

Therefore my Marriott units deposited into II will likely be more potent traders.


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## mwwich (May 23, 2011)

Swice said:


> I'm about to go in to be sheared!
> 
> Haven't joined yet.    About to give in.
> 
> ...



We did the Oceana tour in November....it was quite impressive....Sabel Palms is pretty basic so I would do Oceana.  You will be tempted.....


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## dioxide45 (May 23, 2011)

mwwich said:


> We did the Oceana tour in November....it was quite impressive....Sabel Palms is pretty basic so I would do Oceana.  You will be tempted.....



The tour in Orlando is likely to be done at the sales gallery at the entrance of Grande Vista. They really don't do a tour of the units any more, so it really wouldn't matter where the tour is done. I would still do it at Oceana as one doesn't have to leave the premisis. Though the incentive may be higher in Orlando.


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## Big Matt (May 23, 2011)

I know you didn't ask me directly, but I figured that I'd respond since I have a similar situation to you (I think).

This is whay I am not joining:

1) My resorts (Grande Vista and Manor Club) don't get a lot of points in the DC points program.  This makes it very hard for me to justify paying my mantenance fees for points.
2) I don't always lock them off, so I'm not paying a lot of extra fees.
3) I like both resorts and stay in both regularly, but usually via trade.  In the future, I can do this by just reserving with Marriott.  I will reduce my II costs
4) The resorts that I trade into most are usually fairly easy trades via II.  I love Cypress Harbour, and it is a dead easy trade.
5) I own a non-Marriott that trades very well in II.  That means that I need an II account regardless of my corporate account via my Marriott weeks.
6) I don't want to pay the $1995
7) It would take me over ten years to break even on the savings assuming that Marriott keeps the annual fee the same
8) I have no idea what Newco will do with my weeks.  For all I know they may start to sell off some of the older timeshares.
9) Marriott may offer me a "special" to join for a reduced amount or for free later

What I can guarantee if I join:

1) Marriott will take my $1995
2) ????????




dioxide45 said:


> I would be interested in hearing about your justifications for not joining. We haven't enrolled yet and we pained over the decision for quite some time. There was no Kool-Aid involved either .
> 
> For us it was about the a-la-carte fees. I am curious what justifications that others have found for not joining?


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## dougp26364 (May 23, 2011)

DanCali said:


> *Hmm... sounds like a fabulous points system - the max benefits are reaped when not converting to points. *
> I think I'll pass...




This is my major axe to grind with Marriott over the DC. This is not NEARLY the program that our HGVC and DRI ownerships are to us. 

However, I still enjoy cash savings and, I'll take what I can get. The program is what it is. Unfortunately, it's about the poorest of the points based reservations systems I've seen for existing owners. For new buyers, it's just as good as any other program.


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## dougp26364 (May 23, 2011)

billymach4 said:


> Simple: I will continue to lock out deposit both sides and trade in II. I don't travel at peak times. I am not tied to a school calendar. My schedule so far has been flexible. For the most part I am limited to 2 travel weeks per year due to DW's dismal vacation benefits.
> 
> Yes you will save on fees now and recoup the signup fees. *But how can you be so sure that in 5 years time Marriott will not begin to impose internal exchange fees. *
> *In five years time you all will be locked in and hooked to the MVCD program. What recourse will you have if Marriott imposed a $75 exchange fee. Or a $99 deposit fee? *
> ...



First, no one is locked into the DC. All one has to do is let Marriott know you want out and to stop paying the membership fee. This is not an irreversable decision. The only thing you lose is your joiner fee and any annual membership fee's that you've paid.

Second, it's important to me to know my break even point. With our exchanges, lock-outs and use of bonus points for an extra vacation, we've already hit the bread even point. Each owner's milage will vary.


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## Swice (May 23, 2011)

*which tour?*



mwwich said:


> We did the Oceana tour in November....it was quite impressive....Sabel Palms is pretty basic so I would do Oceana.  You will be tempted.....



Yes, I've heard Oceana is an impressive property.    

As mentioned above, tours are conducted in Orlando at the sales gallery near Grande Vista and/or at Lakeshore.    

I was wondering which location would be the most "professional" and spare me the "drama" of my world is coming to an end.   If I do anything, it will be simply joining DC.    I can assure you I will NOT be purchasing any points.   

In fact I told someone at work today that we have loved our two timeshares and don't regret the purchases at all.    However, I told him I would NOT buy Marriott today.


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## DanCali (May 24, 2011)

Swice said:


> However, I told him I would NOT buy Marriott today.



This says it all...


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## dioxide45 (May 24, 2011)

My goal in creating this thread wasn't to reopen discussion on the merits of the DC program but a lot of good points have been brought up.

When thinking about the DC program we determined that it is really two programs in one. There is the *Point Exchange program *and then there is the *Weeks Exchange program with the consolidated fee*.


When looking at the points exchange program you just need to determine if it works for you. Do you need the additional flexibility? Do you dislike the skim? When looking at this part, the decision is an emotional one.

When looking at the weeks exchange program with consolidated fee, you need to treat it like a business decision. Based on your usage patterns, does it make financial sense to enroll? Is the payback over time worth the enrollment fee?

If either of these programs work for you, then it makes sense to enroll. If only the *weeks exchange program with consolidated fee *pays off, then enroll. If you like the *points exchange program*, then enroll. If neither is appealing or works for you, then don't enroll and keep doing what you are doing in the pay as you go weeks model.

In our opinion, for us the weeks exchange program with consolidated fee works. The four year payback is reasonable, so we have opted to enroll.


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## buzzy (May 24, 2011)

*I kindof get it....*

I have been reading through the last few  months and been on the fence but am unsure of in my situation it would be a good decision.  We own one week that we lock off and have in the past traded up on each.  Right now, I have a trade request sitting there unfulfilled for the first time since my ownership.

If I join, am I understanding this correctly that the only way to trade is:

1.)Go through II as I currently do now, the possiblility of trading up still exists although it will be harder to do in the future due to inventory

2.)Convert to points and accept that I will probably get the trade I want, however I would probably have to trade down. (accept a 1 bedroom for a 2 bedroom, or have a shortage in points due to skim)

Please let me know if I am understanding this correctly.

Thank you!


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## dougp26364 (May 24, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> My goal in creating this thread wasn't to reopen discussion on the merits of the DC program but a lot of good points have been brought up.
> 
> When thinking about the DC program we determined that it is really two programs in one. There is the *Point Exchange program *and then there is the *Weeks Exchange program with the consolidated fee*.
> 
> ...



That's the same thought process we went though when we were deciding to enroll or not to enroll. In the end, the financial aspect of fee consolidation and our usage/exchange patterns led us to enroll.


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## dougp26364 (May 24, 2011)

buzzy said:


> I have been reading through the last few  months and been on the fence but am unsure of in my situation it would be a good decision.  We own one week that we lock off and have in the past traded up on each.  Right now, I have a trade request sitting there unfulfilled for the first time since my ownership.
> 
> If I join, am I understanding this correctly that the only way to trade is:
> 
> ...



1. You'll still go through I.I. for exchanges but, there's no additional exchange fee. It is pure speculation about being more difficult to exchange up.

What I'm finding is this: to trade up, I do online searches with our studio unit. If I do a request, I.I. will only allow me to request the same max. occupancy or, request another studio (unless the resort exchanged into doesn't have studio units). Therefor we've done instant online exchanges but, lately, I don't feel I'm seeing the Marriott inventory I once saw. I do see trade up opportunities outside of Marriott at what seems like the same availability in the past. 

2. I don't think it's necessary to say you'd trade down if you converted to points. Each exchange/reservation will need to be taken on a case by case basis. So far, in our case, I've always felt like we'd get shorted exchanging in the points system but, that's largely based on how we use our units, where we trade into and the fact we typically stay for a full week. Others will give up a night or two in order to be able to trade into a specific view catagory. There's also the possiblity of reserving on the weekdays, which are cheaper and could allow you to trade up and get the view catagory you want.

Options and flexability is what this is all about. The question becomes, is it worth paying to price to have those options and flexability. For some the answer is yes.


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## SueDonJ (May 24, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> My goal in creating this thread wasn't to reopen discussion on the merits of the DC program but a lot of good points have been brought up.
> 
> When thinking about the DC program we determined that it is really two programs in one. There is the *Point Exchange program *and then there is the *Weeks Exchange program with the consolidated fee*.
> 
> ...



Oh my goodness, a sane rational informed opinion.  Dioxide, this is Crazy Talk.


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## winger (May 24, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> My goal in creating this thread wasn't to reopen discussion on the merits of the DC program but a lot of good points have been brought up.
> 
> When thinking about the DC program we determined that it is really two programs in one. There is the *Point Exchange program *and then there is the *Weeks Exchange program with the consolidated fee*.
> 
> ...


Don't forget also if you wish give yourself some options on the future, consider enrolling.  For example, although we have no plans on converting any of our weeks to DC points, since we are enrolled, we do have the option to do so if for some year it works into our schedule.


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## timtax (May 24, 2011)

*DC points*

Athough I joined for the fee consolidation, I never intended to convert to points. But after receiving an AC for depositing with II, the use of the AC is minimal and I don't feel it has much value. My Plat Plus Oceanwatch unit cannot be locked off. So I may be able to get more than one week from it by converting to points. Even if I can't get 2 weeks each year, I may be able to get 3 weeks every 2 years by banking leftover points. Is there a better way to maximize my usage?


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## puckmanfl (May 24, 2011)

good afternoon

Tim...

The best way to maximize points usage is to realize that 5 is the new 7!!!!

Just book some 5 nite Sun-fri stays and you can actually beat the skim...

For example

took my Koolina week at 4025 Iv and converted into 2 (5 day) stays at summit Watch (2 bedroom) ski season...

Be flexible

come to Florida spend...5 days in the mouse house (sun-fri)  take a leisurely drive 1-2 hotel nites and arrive on Marco for another 5 nite sun-fri stay!!!!

In 2012  I have 2 concurrent units at Mountainside 1/8- 1/13... will arrive at SLC spend $99 at Residence Inn sat eve. take shuttle to Park Ciry Sunday Am... check out Friday   getthe same 6 days on the slope I always do at a fraction of course...

After the Park Citry part of the trip a few of us will take a leisurely drive to "Breck" for another Sun-fri stay at mountain Valley...

Be adventurous and flexible!!!!


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## timtax (May 24, 2011)

*Be Flexible....*

Thank you Puckmanfl

I like the way you think. I am spending Memorial day weekend at OW Myrtle Beach using my PlusPoints for Sun and Mon. I booked a night at the Courtyard for Sat. 

So much for never converting to points.


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## puckmanfl (May 24, 2011)

good evening....

Tim Try this....

Take your Ocean Watch plat plus assuming (July 4th) good for 3500-5000 pts depending on your view...

Get two 5 day concurrent stays (sun-fri) at OW or somewhere else and get 10 days in a 2 bedroom... take extended family together!!! as you would have 4 bedrooms... If you have kids ,stick them in the other unit and have privacy for you and your spouse

Come to Lakeshore reserve in a 3 bedroom..with II you can not have an  ongoing search for a 3 bedroom even with a July 4th OW 2 bedroom.  You could probably get two weeks in a 3 bedroom at Imperial Palms.  Try exchanging a 2 bedroom JULY4th for 2 3 bedroom units at Imperial Palms, especially since it doesn't lock off!!


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## dougp26364 (May 24, 2011)

puckmanfl said:


> good afternoon
> 
> Tim...
> 
> ...



I never liked new math when I was in school.  

I have considered this only because we had to cut a vacation short recently, going from 7 night to 5 nights, due to an ongoing illness and time off actually being used for sick leave rather than vacation nights. 

I have to admit, for me, it was sort of nice coming home early and having some time to get work (oh how I dislike that word) done around the house. 

Right now, it's not a consideration for us with Marriott. I have both HGVC and DRI points programs that provide the same benefit without the skim. So Marriott is still down on the list for us for this type of usage. I can see it being of value to owners who have don't have a choice of points based programs from which to reserve.

If you don't mind giving up a couple of nights in order to secure a particular view, than this can work. But what about resorts that don't have views? Branson and Williamsburg come to mind. In those cases, you're just giving up a couple of nights on vacation when you could have had 7 nights for the same exchange value.

This system was made more complex than necessary for owners IMHO. In the end, that's likely to hurt MVCI more than it helps.


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## dougp26364 (May 24, 2011)

SueDonJ said:


> Oh my goodness, a sane rational informed opinion.  Dioxide, this is Crazy Talk.



Oh no, all decisions should be based strictly on emotion. Especially when there's money involved. Cutting off one's nose to spite the face is obviously the best way to make decisions.  

Those that refuse to consider the DC simply because their are asspects of it that tick them off are only hurting themselves. I don't believe Marriott really cares. There are things about this program I really resent but, in the end, I've already saved, or come close to saving, the cost of our enrollment fee. That alone forced me to consider, and accept, Marriott's offer. 

Will I ever use points to make reservations? Who knows. Right now I'm inclined to say the odds are against conversion to points and I'll continue to use the weeks based exchange portion of the program. To date we've been successful in getting the exchanges we want and, I don't have the worry that others share over inventory controls if they're not in the DC.


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## Retired TSO (May 24, 2011)

puckmanfl said:


> good afternoon
> 
> Tim...
> 
> ...



We own an Aruba Surf Club 2 BR Plat which has been giving us 3 weeks with the old system, two weeks by splitting the 2BR and trading the 1 BR and the studio and the 3rd week from an AC which we have always received from the deposit of the 1 BR to II..In the point system, we get just over 4,000 points for the 2 BR unit. We normally spend lots of time in Phoenix during winters where the MCV 1 BR unit is 200 points per night Sun-Thu. So we are thinking of spending Sun-Thu at the MCV and take side trips on weekends to Vegas, Tuscon etc..
I agree that if one is flexible, one can get more from the points system than the older system...


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## hotcoffee (May 24, 2011)

dougp26364 said:


> . . . I have both HGVC and DRI points programs that provide the same benefit without the skim. So Marriott is still down on the list for us for this type of usage. . . .



I think I can safely say that no one likes the skim.  So, there is no point in whipping that dead horse.  

I also don't like the fact that we must actually bank our leftover points or lose them.  I cannot see why Marriott does not just automatically roll them over.  That would effectively make unused points good for two years instead of just one.

I also don't like the fact that we cannot do something similar to a request-first DC search prior to finalizing our points election.

I also don't like the fact that Premier and Premier plus members cannot go on a waitlist at 13 months if their desired exchange is not available at 13 months.


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## dioxide45 (May 24, 2011)

pwrshift said:


> I think it unfair to speculate about unconfirmed deadlines as there's already way too much concern about everything in this terrible launch by Marriott. It would have been so easy for them to launch a new program with a public welcome invitation to 400,000 committed TS supporters but they chose to slap us all in the face with complicated legal papers and a fee to join.
> 
> I'm afraid I just don't trust them any more. I've sold all 3003 of my MAR shares that I bought many years ago as a hedge each time I bought my direct units. *My hedge worked well...what I lost on the present values of my TS since their unveiled the DC plan I made up with the stock sale.
> 
> ...



Brian,

When the DC program was first rolled out you were one of the first people I thought of that this program would be a perfect fit for. You own 6 platinum developer weeks. Your enrollment fee is only $695, not the whopping $1995 that external owners will have to pay.

You often mention that you lock off your two Beach Place weeks to stay four. You also often tout trading two weeks every year for Marriott Reward Points. If you are exchanging two of those lock offs at Beach Place back in to larger units at Beach Place, there is extra savings there. You also only own Marriott TSs.

Based on the above paragraph, your total costs would be 2x$75(lockoff fees), $89(II Annual Fee), 2x$104(Trade for Marriott Reward Points), 2x$109(exchange fees). You are paying $754 in a-la-carte fees each year. Take out the $199 annual DC fee and your fee savings is $555 a year. Your payoff in fee savings alone is a little over one year, give or take some of those fees.


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## dioxide45 (May 24, 2011)

SueDonJ said:


> Oh my goodness, a sane rational informed opinion.  Dioxide, this is Crazy Talk.



We came to the realization that we had to separate the emotional decision from the business decision. If you let the emotional decision blind you, then you may miss out on some additional savings that can be had through the DC program.

We still don't like the point program and are rather upset if MVCI is manipulating II inventory for the benefit of 10% (not all those enrolled owners are trading in points, so that is why this is not at 20% or more) of the owners when there are still 90% or more of the owners out there that deserve to be treated with respect.


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## dougp26364 (May 25, 2011)

hotcoffee said:


> I think I can safely say that no one likes the skim.  So, there is no point in whipping that dead horse.
> 
> I also don't like the fact that we must actually bank our leftover points or lose them.  I cannot see why Marriott does not just automatically roll them over.  That would effectively make unused points good for two years instead of just one.
> 
> ...



Both HGVC and DRI have drawbacks. HGVC has ala carte fee's and with DRI, I can't reserve a one bedroom unit and have enough points left over to reserve a studio. 

It's just that the more subtle skim of DRI and HGVC leave me with better options than Marriott. 

Neither HGVC or DRI automatically bank points. Both systems require you call. DRI requires points be saved several months in advance.

I'm not sure there's any points based system that allows for request first. With HGVC, it use to be that it was either there or it wasn't. You'd couldn't even place an ongoing request. I don't know if this has changed or not as I've become accustomed to frequent searchs to see if what I want is available. 

Right now, I'm glad we own in more than one system. Between all three systems we own we're typically able to get what we want. Each system has it's pro's and each has it's con's. 

There is no perfect system. Just those that fit individual needs better than others. Marriott's point system would have fit us very well if they hadn't decided to redo their seasons by making giving each week different point values. As it is, there is still value for us in being DC members. I just wonder if this is how Marriott envisioned it working?


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## ilene13 (May 25, 2011)

*Not for everyone*

There is absolutely NO savings for someone like me in the DC points system.  We own a 3 bedroom platinum week in Hilton Head, where lockoffs are not allowed.  We also own 3 1 bedroom platinum weeks in Aruba. I rarely trade and based on the skim my 4 weeks of platinum time if changed to points would not give me 4 weeks of vacation during prime season.  I also own 3 weeks at the Royal Resorts--Sands and Haciendas, so I must have a separate II account.  So for now I will continue to keep my $695 in my pocket!!!


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## m61376 (May 25, 2011)

I, too, do not like the DC for many of the reasons already posted. Additionally, the Caribbean resorts, despite high trade value and high rental rates, seemed to get shafted in the point allocation. I know that Aruba weeks command amongst the highest rental rates from Marriott itself, but Marriott considers timeshare users different than rental customers, so the point allocation doesn't reflect that. That said, there isn't much I can do about it, and I have to deal with what is.

I don't do much trading, but have utilized the system to get extra units, and the potential to rent points from others opens up a potential real benefit of the new system. I also am faced with the reality that I do own resale units, and this may (or may not) be an opportunity to equalize them. Right now, I don't foresee a real benefit. However, I suspect that there is at least the possibility that down the road Marriott may handle both week and point exchanges in its DC, especially with high demand weeks that are not in the trust. Will week exchanges be confirmed faster for members of the DC in the future? Marriott says no, but will that change? 

I am not trying to start rumors here. This is just my thought process as I debate whether it is worth $1995 as sort of an insurance that my weeks don't forever become relegated to second class, because I do suspect that, whether the end of June or at a later date, the door will close to grandfather resale weeks, so to speak. It MAY be worth the 2K just to make sure I'm not left out in the cold for any future changes, and the ability to play with the points system I'd view as a rationalization for the expense.

I'm still on the fence. I've been reading all these posts with a lot of interest, although I've been distracted with wedding planning these days


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## Twinkstarr (May 25, 2011)

hotcoffee said:


> I think I can safely say that no one likes the skim.  So, there is no point in whipping that dead horse.
> 
> I also don't like the fact that we must actually bank our leftover points or lose them.  I cannot see why Marriott does not just automatically roll them over.  That would effectively make unused points good for two years instead of just one.
> 
> ...



No point system automatically rolls your points forward. I have Disney and you have to "bank" your points via the website or by calling in no charge to do this.

With Wyndham, I have to call in to "pool" my points, they charge $39 but the points are good for 3 years.


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## JanT (May 25, 2011)

Dioxide,

I just wanted to tell you that I admire you for coming forward and admitting that you found merits to the DC system.  You could have just quietly joined and never said a word here but you came here and let everyone know that even though you were a vocal opponent of the DC system, you eventually set aside the emotional aspect and did what you felt was best for you.  I applaud you!   

I still wrestle with the decision to join the DC or not.  We only have one non-developer week that is eligible and it is a one bedroom Grand Chateau week.  There is no cost savings for us by joining.  Joining would really only allow us to add days to a vacation or to take a shorter trip.  There are benefits to that but is that worth $1995 to us?  Probably not.  If we could put all of our weeks into the DC that would be one thing but since we can't we are pretty set on not joining.  

Anyway, just a nod to you to say "thank you" for sharing on this!

Jan


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## cruisin (May 25, 2011)

I also hate the new system, but have 2 annual lockoffs and an EOY lockoff. all resale, we split all the lockoffs evey year, and always exchange to Marriott, so every 2 years 5 X $75 for lock off fees ($375) 10 X $109 ($1090) for Exchanges - 2 X $199 for annual fees = $1067 savings every 2 years, we get our money back easily in 4 years on the $1995, plus the 800 bonus points worth at least $400 to us.

I cant see buying any points, it does not make sense at this point, way too expensive for what we would do.

We have an eye on a resale in an area we might live and get great day use privileges at the resort, No day use privileges at any resort if you are a points owner, you have to have a deed at that resort.

Finally, and it has been said many times, Most people I have talked to from systems that had points conversions or other perks and did not join wish they had, or wish they  had owned before the deadlines and were grandfathered in. We are locked in and can get any new benefits or resorts as they come along, I am guessing new resorts and programs will be too expensive , but you never know.


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## CatJ114683 (May 25, 2011)

My question is this (regarding conversion to points)
What do you all think would happen if Marriott decides to 
sell off selected resorts that are not (as) profitible or get out of the timeshare business all together? As I recall the Newco is set up like a holding company.  Just curious if this comes into play with folks decision to convert

I understand w/ the _new_ purchases, you don't own anywhere in particular, but the constant scare tactic approach for legacy owners is puzzling.  Not participating with II?  Really??  I still believe they should have just converted all legacy owners over  instead of attaching a money grubbing scheme to it and calling it an upgrade  .  

We ourselves are not 'converters' because as mentioned a few remarks back, we only have one week and do not travel during high season, thus making it a charitible donation to Marriott and not a vacation enhancement.


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## pashbroo (May 25, 2011)

Since there's so much discussion from people with lockoffs, I have a question regarding the DC program and points for lockoffs.  If you join the DC with, say, a Willow Ridge Plat. 2BR week, the points are 1,175 for the studio, 1,500 for the 1BR, or 2,400 for the 2BR.  Now, since the annual fee covers lockoffs, couldn't you theoretically lock off your unit, then deposit both sides to the DC and get 2,675 points for your 1BR + Studio rather than the 2,400 for the 2BR?  I'm guessing there's no way it can work like this, since everyone would do it, but can someone confirm that this isn't possible?


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## SueDonJ (May 25, 2011)

CatJ114683 said:


> My question is this (regarding conversion to points)
> What do you all think would happen if Marriott decides to
> sell off selected resorts that are not (as) profitible or get out of the timeshare business all together? As I recall the Newco is set up like a holding company.  Just curious if this comes into play with folks decision to convert. ...



No doubt the upcoming spin-off is giving some folks who might otherwise consider enrolling a reason to think twice, understandably, because forking over good money for a new product to a company whose future is uncertain is dicey.  My opinion is that with the spin-off Marriott is positioning its timeshare segment to perform better over the long haul, especially in this economy, than it would if it remained under the corporate umbrella.  But that's only my opinion and I completely understand that others don't share it, and that none of us knows what the future will bring.

As far as selling off the under-performers, or Marriott choosing to not extend the management agreement with them?  That was a risk long before the DC or spin-off was announced - Marriott has in the past separated itself from several resorts.

Similar thing with selling off the entire timeshare segment - it was always a risk.


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## kds4 (May 25, 2011)

winger said:


> Don't forget also if you wish give yourself some options on the future, consider enrolling.  For example, although we have no plans on converting any of our weeks to DC points, since we are enrolled, we do have the option to do so if for some year it works into our schedule.



Or in our case, as resale week owners, we now have the option of redeeming for MR points every other year which was previously unavailable to us.


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## SueDonJ (May 25, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> Brian,
> 
> When the DC program was first rolled out you were one of the first people I thought of that this program would be a perfect fit for. You own 6 platinum developer weeks. Your enrollment fee is only $695, not the whopping $1995 that external owners will have to pay.
> 
> ...



Funny, Brian was one of the first I thought of, too.  I hope he comes back to explain his decision.  Not because I think he's wrong for not enrolling, but because maybe he's considering things that haven't been discussed yet.


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## kds4 (May 25, 2011)

timtax said:


> Athough I joined for the fee consolidation, I never intended to convert to points. But after receiving an AC for depositing with II, the use of the AC is minimal and I don't feel it has much value. My Plat Plus Oceanwatch unit cannot be locked off. So I may be able to get more than one week from it by converting to points. Even if I can't get 2 weeks each year, I may be able to get 3 weeks every 2 years by banking leftover points. Is there a better way to maximize my usage?



One option for stretching a non lock-off unit is to try the Short Stay exchange offering through II. We actually turned our 7 night 2 bedroom into two 6 night exchanges that we used to get 2 units at the same time for an upcoming 6 night trip. :whoopie:


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## SueDonJ (May 25, 2011)

pashbroo said:


> Since there's so much discussion from people with lockoffs, I have a question regarding the DC program and points for lockoffs.  If you join the DC with, say, a Willow Ridge Plat. 2BR week, the points are 1,175 for the studio, 1,500 for the 1BR, or 2,400 for the 2BR.  Now, since the annual fee covers lockoffs, couldn't you theoretically lock off your unit, then deposit both sides to the DC and get 2,675 points for your 1BR + Studio rather than the 2,400 for the 2BR?  I'm guessing there's no way it can work like this, since everyone would do it, but can someone confirm that this isn't possible?



Not possible.

from the Exchange Procedures document, Section III.B.2.:


> ... Lock-off portions of an Accommodation are not eligible to be deposited. ...


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## pashbroo (May 25, 2011)

SueDonJ said:


> Not possible.
> 
> from the Exchange Procedures document, Section III.B.2.:



Thanks, I figured this would be the case.  So basically, if you own a 2BR or 3BR, even if it has a lockoff option, if you trade it for points it has to be the whole unit.


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## hotcoffee (May 25, 2011)

Twinkstarr said:


> No point system automatically rolls your points forward. I have Disney and you have to "bank" your points via the website or by calling in no charge to do this.
> 
> With Wyndham, I have to call in to "pool" my points, they charge $39 but the points are good for 3 years.



No implication is intended in my dislike bullets that things are necessarly better elsewhere.  

I think with all of the uncertainly right now both with changes at Marriott and with the future of timesharing in general, it would be nice to see some real positive things about the program to make it more appealing.  I would be surprised if the program, as currently configured, will be able to show much profit for the spinoff company.  I don't see a lot of incentive for people to buy points.  Enrollments themselves are probably not going to keep the spinoff company afloat.


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## siberiavol (May 25, 2011)

This thread pretty much confirms the approach most people have suggested after the initial frustration period. The consensus approach is a combination of numbers crunching and anticipating the possible ways you might use your property in the future.

The board has done a good job in the last year in discussing the pros and cons of about any situation that involves legacy owners and their usage patterns. It continues to be useful to hear people's ideas as more information becomes available. It appears one factor that is influencing some to join the program recently is the change in II availability. There will probably be other changes that will make DC more or less attractive to legacy owners in the future.


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## Twinkstarr (May 26, 2011)

hotcoffee said:


> No implication is intended in my dislike bullets that things are necessarly better elsewhere.
> 
> I think with all of the uncertainly right now both with changes at Marriott and with the future of timesharing in general, it would be nice to see some real positive things about the program to make it more appealing.  I would be surprised if the program, as currently configured, will be able to show much profit for the spinoff company.  I don't see a lot of incentive for people to buy points.  Enrollments themselves are probably not going to keep the spinoff company afloat.



Just saying that point based systems have a few more rules that need to be taken into consideration.


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## dougp26364 (May 26, 2011)

Twinkstarr said:


> Just saying that point based systems have a few more rules that need to be taken into consideration.



Amen to that. It takes more effort to understand the basic concepts with points based exchange systems. Owning more than one makes ownership more complicted. One has to stay on top of what they own and the changes to get the most out of their ownerships.


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## dioxide45 (May 26, 2011)

*Enrollment Prices*

I wanted to clarify, because I have seen a lot of people posting numbers for enrollment prices that are not accurate. Here are the prices for enrollment in DC for legacy owners.

Single Week Internal Purchase - $595
Multiple Weeks, all Internal Purchases - $695

Single Week External Purchase - $1495
Multiple Weeks, all External Purchase $1995
Multiple Weeks, mix of internal and external purchase $1995

If you own 6 developer weeks and 1 external, you still get hammered with $1995. Though it wouldn't have effected our enrollment price, I think MVCI should have used a sliding scale for those that owned both internal and external. It seems that if you even thought about resale, you were hammered.


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## wesley (May 26, 2011)

*Heck, I not only enrolled...*

I bought 1,000 points for 9K...   Am kicking myself now   - we own at MOW and BPT but never trade   - at least with the purchase they waived the enrollment fee  (at 9K they could afford to)


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## dougp26364 (May 27, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> I wanted to clarify, because I have seen a lot of people posting numbers for enrollment prices that are not accurate. Here are the prices for enrollment in DC for legacy owners.
> 
> Single Week Internal Purchase - $595
> Multiple Weeks, all Internal Purchases - $695
> ...



Only if you enroll that one external week. Leave that week out and you'd pay the $695.


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## dioxide45 (May 27, 2011)

dougp26364 said:


> Only if you enroll that one external week. Leave that week out and you'd pay the $695.



That is good advice.


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## m61376 (May 27, 2011)

dougp26364 said:


> Only if you enroll that one external week. Leave that week out and you'd pay the $695.



But remember- if you bought it to trade, you'll need to have 2 II accounts (which may still be worth it, just pointing that out).


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## Old Hickory (May 27, 2011)

siberiavol said:


> It appears one factor that is influencing some to join the program recently is the change in II availability.



I haven't seen a change in II availability.  Does anyone have hard fact evidence this is true?  

Okay, so ACs are not as juicey as before and you may not always get a 3bedroom Plat exchange for your 1 bedroom silver deposit.  Is that what you're talking about? 

I bought thinking that exchanges where an eye for an eye but found through TUG that an eye could get an eye abut also get two ears and nose.  Maybe those days are over and so now an eye gets an eye which still seems fair.


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## timtax (May 27, 2011)

*Aruba availability*

It is interesting that I was not able to see any Aruba Surf Club available for late April 2012 in II but a call to my DC advisor gave me a selection of weeks and views to choose from. I chose a 2br OS using DC points. I have an ongoing request with II so if I get the same week, I can cancel and get my points back. But the DC has inventory NOW.


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## dougp26364 (May 27, 2011)

Old Hickory said:


> I haven't seen a change in II availability.  Does anyone have hard fact evidence this is true?
> 
> Okay, so ACs are not as juicey as before and you may not always get a 3bedroom Plat exchange for your 1 bedroom silver deposit.  Is that what you're talking about?
> 
> I bought thinking that exchanges where an eye for an eye but found through TUG that an eye could get an eye abut also get two ears and nose.  Maybe those days are over and so now an eye gets an eye which still seems fair.



Not really hard fact evidence. Just the observation I've made from looking at online availability for so many years. For all I know if I could run the numbers, it might be exactly the same and it's just my imagination running wild. 

Even if it isn't the same, there are to many variables in the world of exchange to blame it strictly on the DC. It's going to take four or five years before I'll be willing to blame anything strictly on the DC.

The one thing none of us our sure on is how much control/influence the DC exchange coordinator has on inventory. While there are far more legacy week owners not in the DC than in the DC, does the exchange coordinator get to pick over all deposited inventory before it's released by I.I. to all Marriott owners and, eventually released for exchange to all I.I. members, Marriott owners or not?

It was my understanding that Marriott's explanation for how trust owners would gain access to non-trust inventory at sold out resorts that the exchange manager had the ability to make like-for-like exchanges to get the inventory for trust owners. What none of us know is, if this is how it works, how much access does the DC exchange manager have? Can they exchange trust inventory into I.I. for anticipated future need, thus keeping what would ordinarily be available to everyone off the books?

One other concern is what does I.I. consider like-for-like value when the DC exchange manager makes those changes? Would two studio's equal a single bedroom? Would four studio units equal a two bedroom unit? If they do have lattitude to combine lower sleeping capacity units to equal a larger sleeping capacity unit, does that mean we'll see more studio and one bedroom units than two bedroom units?

There's still a lot of questions out there and no answers coming directly from Marriott. Only what experienced Marriott owner/exchangers are seeing and what they perceive when looking for exchanges.

I've been on the fence about depositing our studio lock-off at Ocean Pointe. Right now, I'm thinking I'll lock-off and deposit that unit just to see what it can pull online in the DC. We've always been able to trade up with this unit. Now, I'm not so sure. Marriott seems intent on eliminating that factor from exchanging. If I can't trade up with Marriott this move will cost me $139 to exchange outside the Marriott family in order to trade up in size. 

I'm thinking it's worth the risk to see what happens. Worst case scenario I have to exchange outside the Marriott family. Best case scenario I find nothing has really changed. Worst case scenario I'm either out $139, wait to long and lose the use of the studio week and learn that I need to just keep my 3 bedroom unit intact and bring friends with us on vacation. Of course, I can always attempt to rent the unit and recover some of those VERY expensive Marriott MF's.


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## dougp26364 (May 27, 2011)

timtax said:


> It is interesting that I was not able to see any Aruba Surf Club available for late April 2012 in II but a call to my DC advisor gave me a selection of weeks and views to choose from. I chose a 2br OS using DC points. I have an ongoing request with II so if I get the same week, I can cancel and get my points back. But the DC has inventory NOW.



This is what I believe is happening. The DC exchange manager is holding inventory for DC members and trust owners. The DC exchange manager looks at the requests coming in and matches them for Marriott owners. This is why I feel that it will be more important in the future to make exchange requests rather than rely on online searches. 

With trust points, the DC exchange manager knows the cost and instant exchanges will be easy to match. With weeks exchanges, it may take a little longer since it's suppose to be like for like and they'll need to look a little more closely at requests and which gets filled first.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2011)

*The Deed is Done*

Well, we went ahead and enrolled this morning. Bank account is minus $1995  . We opted to enroll earlier than we initially expected. We want to get our II account open as we want to start putting in exchange requests for 2012. So the sooner the new corporate II account is opened, the sooner we can get our request in.


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## MOXJO7282 (Jun 17, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> Well, we went ahead and enrolled this morning. Bank account is minus $1995  . We opted to enroll earlier than we initially expected. We want to get our II account open as we want to start putting in exchange requests for 2012. So the sooner the new corporate II account is opened, the sooner we can get our request in.



I would have been right there with you but I've recently bought and sold several weeks that would not qualify so it just didn't make sense to only be able to do some of my portfolio. 

I really thought MAR would change their minds and accepted all resales because I think it eliminates quite a few potential customers, but they didn't, so I didn't.


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## hotcoffee (Jun 17, 2011)

MOXJO7282 said:


> . . . I really thought MAR would change their minds and accepted all resales because I think it eliminates quite a few potential customers, but they didn't, so I didn't.



Every time I speak with one of the vacation advisors I get one of those questionaires.  I always hammer away at their policy toward resales in the last section where we can make our comments.  I also suggest that some cheaper vacation options are needed to make the program viable in the long term.  In previous times, I listed the skim as an issue.  This time I did not.  This time I listed the following problems with the program:

1. Two pots of inventory should be eliminated in favor of just one pot open to everyone with points.
2. Lack of advantages of reserving at 13 months. No waitlist at 13 months.
3. Resale weeks need to be able to be brought into the program.
4. Needs to be a reasonable and acceptable points buy-back option.
5. Needs to be some cheaper vacation alternatives for points.  The better resorts and the Explorer Collection are just too expensive points-wise to make the program appealing.  I am not convinced that short vacation stays are going to sell the program to people who are watching their money more now than they used to do.

I am pessimistic about the future of the spinoff company in this shakey economic environment without improvements in the program.  It can work for many us weeks owners, but I do not think it offers much for buyers of points only unless they are willing to cough up enough money to buy a meaningful number of points.


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## kjd (Jun 17, 2011)

It looks to me like the spinoff company is more interested in reducing costs in order to secure their foothold in the timeshare market.  That means that they are currently not interested in top line growth and are more interested in their return on investment.  Several recent developments have led to that conclusion.

Rumors of sales office closings

Delay, sale or changes to announced new projects or changing the plans for existing projects.

Rumored reductions of administrative staff

Change to a point system that reduces or eliminates the need for large commitments of capital.

Curtailment of any worthwhile sales incentives for new buyers

Virtual elimination of ROFR

Timesharing was about 10% of MAR's business.  The spinoff will be smaller but will carry with it the use of the Marriott brand.  Recent spinoffs by companies like IBM have been successful.  The MAR spinco will be also.  It will be a successful spinoff for stockholders but maybe not for timeshare owners.  Increasing the return on investment is usually nothing more than a squeeze on the owners.


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## Big Matt (Jun 17, 2011)

I don't think that the new company has been spun off yet.  This is still under Marriott.  

When the spinoff actually happens, I predict that Spinco will try immediately to sell off all of their inventory to whoever wants to buy it.  That means resale companies, etc.  There's no reason why Spinco can't outsource the sales function entirely.


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## mkahanek (Jun 17, 2011)

Personally for me the new program sucks.   My best friend and I went 50/50 on a week purchase of Ko Olina when we were younger.  The idea was we would each marry one day and it would be a good asset to have for vacationing with our future wives/kids.   The future is here (minus the kids).  The idea was that each year we would lock off and would rotate who had the 1BR side and who had the studio side.  Worked well for us.  Points....  2013 each per year.  Not really going to work as we have been able to trade for 2BR st. thomas, st. kitts back in to Ko Olina etc.  How am I going to do that with points?  I could understand if I got the full 4025.  But I don't..   Bank and borrow for 6000?  One vacation every three years from the 1 a year I have been getting.  No good.  Not sure where to go from here other than take my chances with II inventory or trade in to non-marriots with the occasional lucky strike or home resort stay.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2011)

mkahanek said:


> Personally for me the new program sucks.   My best friend and I went 50/50 on a week purchase of Ko Olina when we were younger.  The idea was we would each marry one day and it would be a good asset to have for vacationing with our future wives/kids.   The future is here (minus the kids).  The idea was that each year we would lock off and would rotate who had the 1BR side and who had the studio side.  Worked well for us.  Points....  2013 each per year.  Not really going to work as we have been able to trade for 2BR st. thomas, st. kitts back in to Ko Olina etc.  How am I going to do that with points?  I could understand if I got the full 4025.  But I don't..   Bank and borrow for 6000?  One vacation every three years from the 1 a year I have been getting.  No good.  Not sure where to go from here other than take my chances with II inventory or trade in to non-marriots with the occasional lucky strike or home resort stay.



Enrollment isn't only about points. You need to consider if the weeks based exchange program with consolidated fee works also.

II Membership $89
Lock off Fee $75
II Exhcange Fee $109
II Exhcange Fee $109
Total $382

Annual DC Fee $165

Your fee savings each year would be $217


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## ilene13 (Jun 17, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> Enrollment isn't only about points. You need to consider if the weeks based exchange program with consolidated fee works also.
> 
> II Membership $89
> Lock off Fee $75
> ...



But not everyone will be saving fees!!  I do not have Marriott lockoffs.  I need a second II account for my Royal weeks and I do not exchange my Marriott weeks.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2011)

ilene13 said:


> But not everyone will be saving fees!!  I do not have Marriott lockoffs.  I need a second II account for my Royal weeks and I do not exchange my Marriott weeks.



I agree, my response was specific to mkahanek's situation. One lock off week that they lock off every year and no other non Marriott weeks. Asuming they purchased direct. The fee savings payoff is less than three years. It is a business decision that they can make, just putting it out there.

This is why everyone needs to look at their own situation to determine if it works best for them.


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## mkahanek (Jun 17, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> Enrollment isn't only about points. You need to consider if the weeks based exchange program with consolidated fee works also.
> 
> II Membership $89
> Lock off Fee $75
> ...



hmm.  food for thought...


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2011)

mkahanek said:


> hmm.  food for thought...



To note, that fee savings wouldn't be seen until year four as you have to pay the $595 enrollment fee.


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## Big Matt (Jun 18, 2011)

For the future, you can't assume that the $165 stays the same or any of the other a la carte fees for that matter.  



dioxide45 said:


> To note, that fee savings wouldn't be seen until year four as you have to pay the $595 enrollment fee.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2011)

Big Matt said:


> For the future, you can't assume that the $165 stays the same or any of the other a la carte fees for that matter.



True. In fact it was mentioned in another forum that the non Marriott exchanges would be increasing in later this year (July?). As with all prices, they will go up. The $165/$199 will likely increase, while the II annual fee and M to M exchange fee will likely increase also.


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## winger (Jun 18, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> To note, that fee savings wouldn't be seen until year four as you have to pay the $595 enrollment fee.


or less time depending on what you do with the 800 bonus plus points marriott gives for enrolling.


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## ladyjadegd (Jun 20, 2011)

I just learned something last month.  I had used some of my 800 bonus points to stay an extra night earlier in the year and thought I'd see if, two weeks out, I could use the remainder to stay a couple of nights in Palm Desert during Memorial weekend.  When I called, the Vacation Rep said they were having a "sale" and that I could get 20% off the listed points at Palm Desert that weekend, so I ended up being able to stay three nights instead of two and use up all but 10 of my points!  Oddly, when I arrived, I was told that Memorial Weekend is the busiest weekend of the year and that they were fully booked!  I'm not sure why there was a sale, but I think that is a good sign for planning travel in the future.

Was it the last minute thing?  Not sure, but wanted to share!

Jennifer


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## dioxide45 (Jun 20, 2011)

ladyjadegd said:


> I just learned something last month.  I had used some of my 800 bonus points to stay an extra night earlier in the year and thought I'd see if, two weeks out, I could use the remainder to stay a couple of nights in Palm Desert during Memorial weekend.  When I called, the Vacation Rep said they were having a "sale" and that I could get 20% off the listed points at Palm Desert that weekend, so I ended up being able to stay three nights instead of two and use up all but 10 of my points!  Oddly, when I arrived, I was told that Memorial Weekend is the busiest weekend of the year and that they were fully booked!  I'm not sure why there was a sale, but I think that is a good sign for planning travel in the future.
> 
> Was it the last minute thing?  Not sure, but wanted to share!
> 
> Jennifer



MVCI seems to have these sales, though I don't know if this one was advertised? We were told by sales staff that prices were always reduced 50% for short notice, they even showed us the e-mail that they sent out. Of course that 50% was only for premier members and he failed to mention it wasn't an ongoing program but only on an as needed basis.

This is something where many people have decided the DC program is very weak. They need a flexchange type program where discounted point prices are offered for DC reservations close to checkin. They also need to set something up with interval where people can get discounted point exchanges through II for non Marriott resorts.


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## LovinTheTropics (Jun 20, 2011)

question:

I have a 2 bedroom Gold week at Shadow Ridge
This year, I traded the studio side for a 2 bedroom unit
at Westin Lagunamar in Cancun
and the 1 bedroom side for a 2 bedroom unit at Marriott's Frenchman's Cove
St Thomas

Would I be able to do the same thing with the points?

still confused how it all works..... that's why I am not joining at this point.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 21, 2011)

LovinTheTropics said:


> question:
> 
> I have a 2 bedroom Gold week at Shadow Ridge
> This year, I traded the studio side for a 2 bedroom unit
> ...



No, you likely couldn't do this with points. However, it doesn't mean you can't do this in II through the DC program and saving on the fees.


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## CapriciousC (Jun 21, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> I would be interested in hearing about your justifications for not joining. We haven't enrolled yet and we pained over the decision for quite some time. There was no Kool-Aid involved either .
> 
> For us it was about the a-la-carte fees. I am curious what justifications that others have found for not joining?



For us, there are two main drawbacks to the point system that will keep us from enrolling.  

1) The European resorts are not included, and those are the resorts that we would most want to trade for.

2) We own at Waiohai, which doesn't have a lock-off option, so the savings related to fees don't really apply to us.  

Basically, the points system doesn't give me anything additional that I don't already have, and it doesn't save me any money.  I can definitely see how it works for some, but not for all.  

Unless/until Marriott includes the resorts in Europe (and possibly Phuket), it just doesn't appeal to us.


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## rosepointe (Jun 21, 2011)

dougp26364 said:


> This is what I believe is happening. The DC exchange manager is holding inventory for DC members and trust owners. The DC exchange manager looks at the requests coming in and matches them for Marriott owners. This is why I feel that it will be more important in the future to make exchange requests rather than rely on online searches.
> 
> With trust points, the DC exchange manager knows the cost and instant exchanges will be easy to match. With weeks exchanges, it may take a little longer since it's suppose to be like for like and they'll need to look a little more closely at requests and which gets filled first.



I suspect that is true.  We own Marriott Surf and did not see weeks available in the fall for May 2011.  We had some nothing AC's but I kept checking and ended up with a 1 bedroom Ocean Club May 28 and a one bedroom Surf June 4th.  I think they released these about January.  When I looked today I saw there were some recent releases for Sept/Oct.

Since we are willing to take a risk and are flexible with time sometimes I have a back up hotel reservation, get my flights and then just wait and see.  Last year we ended up with a second week in Spain.  Had gotten Marbella in Sept after requesting in June and got Andalucia with a nothing AC 3 weeks before we left.

I realize this is not for everyone...but we are able to change last minute.  Went to the point "thing" salesman in Aruba this past trip and for now since we only have the 1 unit lock off Oceanside at the Surf Club we decided no need to do the point thing yet.  If we decide in the future to change TSing to hotel use it might be worth it ...or not.  We also bought resale 6 years ago and have certainly got what we paid for by now with the bonus weeks we were able to get.

Thank you for all of you who have spelled these changes out.  I found this board 6 years ago and read it for 5 days before we purchased.

Sue


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