# Festiva takes over resort



## Sou13

*Festiva Adventure Club*

Is it OK to launch a discussion here of what kind of offers Outfield Marketing is making to deeded interval owners?  Why and how is it possible to join the Club as a "New" member?  Is it OK to post how much it costs for how many points as opposed to how much it costs to convert?


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## DeniseM

It is fine to discuss all of that in the abstract.  What you want to avoid is posting specific info. about TS's that you want to sell or buy.  Those kinds of posts are edited, as Ads.


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## tombo

For anyone who is considering giving up their week to get Festiva Points,DO NOT DO IT!!!!!. The Festiva Points are worthless. You will no longer be an owner at your resort, you will become a Festiva Club member and Festiva will actually own your week. Festiva will vote on asessments, MF increases, they will vote themselves in as the mgt comany, and you will do whatever they want with no say from the "club members" because Points owners have no vote.

Here are 2 e-bay Festiva points ads. If you feel that you must own Festiva Points ( for the life of me I don't know why you would want them), bid on one of these and you will own Festiva points because you will be the only bidder. If you don't bid I feel sure that no one else will place a bid. I have watched 5 or 6 Festiva Points auctions expire with no bid being placed even though the starting bid was as low as $1. They are worthless, don't believe anything the salesman tells you. Here are 2 current auctions:

Auction number 220373567623 for 1500 Festiva Points at Peppertree Ocean Club SC which has a starting bid of $1 and no bids with only 17 hours left. If you don't bid $1 for this auction I would bet that it will not receive a bid.
This auction #220373983605   is for 1300 Festiva Points with a starting bid of $1. Of course there are no bids on this either because no one wants these points.

Keep your week. Don't let Festiva scare you or coerce you into giving up the week you own to become a member of the Festiva Adventure club. If you do join the "club", all you will have is the rights to use what is IMO worthless points for the next 30 years. Please do so realizing that you will be a member for the next 30 years because you will probably never find anyone who would take the points off of your hands for any price, even for free.


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## somerville

Tombo, Those "Festiva" points auctions on eBay are really for Equivest Vacation and Travel Club Points (EVTC).  Anyone purchasing these points would have to pay to convert them to Festiva Adventure Club (FAC) points.

Festiva bought EVTC from Wyndham/Fairfield about two years ago.  Festiva has been charging the same inflated conversion fee to EVTC owners that it is trying to extract from Southcape owners and has sent Outfield Marketing around the country trying to get EVTC owners to convert.

I haven't seen many offers to sell true FAC points packages.

The other info you posted about about giving up the deed to your property is correct.  If enough owners convert, Festiva will be able to gain control of your board.  Not a good result in my opinion.

I am curious as to how many FAC points Festiva is offering in conversion of a Southcape week?


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## bnoble

I own a couple fixed weeks at a resort that Festiva bought from Wyndham.  After looking into it, I concluded that for my specific weeks, FAC was under-valuing them relative to my exchange options through II/RCI.  I saw absolutely no value in converting.


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## Carolinian

Festiva, like Wastegate, is a developer which I would run, not walk, away from!


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## Sou13

somerville said:


> I am curious as to how many FAC points Festiva is offering in conversion of a Southcape week?



It looks as though as though it's OK to compare offers here.  I own what Festiva considers to be a "green float" week at Southcape.  First I had to be scared into converting by being told how deeded owners would be liable for special assessments while Festiva members could count on lower MF's.  Then I was told that I had to convert before the offer for my week was rescinded, and that I wasn't supposed to be eligible for as many points as I was being offered.

The offer of the day was to pay Festiva $2900+195 processing fee and deed my week over to a "trustee" for 40 years, renewable in 10-year increments.  My MF was supposed to be lower than the current Southcape MF (but only $20 lower).

I was never extended an offer to join as a "New" member.


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## somerville

Sou13 said:


> It looks as though as though it's OK to compare offers here.  I own what Festiva considers to be a "green float" week at Southcape.  First I had to be scared into converting by being told how deeded owners would be liable for special assessments while Festiva members could count on lower MF's.  Then I was told that I had to convert before the offer for my week was rescinded, and that I wasn't supposed to be eligible for as many points as I was being offered.
> 
> The offer of the day was to pay Festiva $2900+195 processing fee and deed my week over to a "trustee" for 40 years, renewable in 10-year increments.  My MF was supposed to be lower than the current Southcape MF (but only $20 lower).
> 
> I was never extended an offer to join as a "New" member.


I don't understand why you can not post what Festiva is wanting from you to convert your Southcape week to Festiva Adventure Club points.  The fee they want to charge you is not an offer to sell and shouldn't be considered an ad.  How many Festiva points would your green Southcape week convert to.

I also do not understand your comment about not being offered a "New" membership.  That is not a Festiva term that I am familiar with.  Equivest had New and Charter memberships to distinguish between points owners who converted a deeded week to points (Charter) or those who purchased just points (New) and did not own a specific week.  The New points were supposed to be backed by intervals held by a trustee.  Charter members continued to own their deeded week, and all Equivest memberships were permanent.


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## tombo

somerville said:


> Tombo, Those "Festiva" points auctions on eBay are really for Equivest Vacation and Travel Club Points (EVTC).  Anyone purchasing these points would have to pay to convert them to Festiva Adventure Club (FAC) points.



Sorry, those weren't Festiva Points. About 6 months ago on a Festiva thread I posted a Festiva Points auction that had a starting bid price of $99, and it didn't receive a bid. Some of the other auctions I watched in the past ( like the ones I recently listed) might have been equivest points. Here is an ad for Curch Street Inn for 20 points in an every odd year floating. The auction number is 250388044057   and it doesn't specifically say Festiva points so I can't be sure.


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## tombo

somerville said:


> The other info you posted about about giving up the deed to your property is correct.  If enough owners convert, Festiva will be able to gain control of your board.  Not a good result in my opinion.



This is a very bad result. Festive gains control of a resort and makes a lot of money by assessing owners, increasing MF's and  voting themselves the mgt company IMO. 

People don't understand how Festiva can buy a small percentage of a resort and take it over. If Festiva can become owners of 20% of the total inventory by buying HOA owned weeks combined with the weeks they get owners to give them to become "Festiva Adventure Club Points members", they can take over your resort. Anyone who has ever been a board member knows that it is hard to get enough owners to mail in their votes each year to obtain a quorum of 51%. A large percentage of the owners don't bother to vote or send in their proxies.  Festiva will vote 100% of their 20% ownership for whatever agenda they have. If only 31% of the remaining owners mail in their proxys, they have a quorum. Festiva puts it's own employees and other people who will vote however Festiva wants on the list of board candidates to vote for. If there are 2 people running for office, Festive votes 100% of their 20% for their candidates. All it takes is for 6% of the 31% of owners who actually voted in this example to vote for the Festiva candidates (who aren't listed that way on the ballott) and you have a Festiva controlled board (26% beats 25% every time). 49% of the owners never bothered to vote and the 25% that did vote against Festiva's board lost to Festiva's 20% ownership and 6% of voters who liked what it said on the nominee's resume.

Now you have the "Festiva board" choosing the management company (which surprise, surprise is Festiva). The Festiva board now controls all proxies, the  20% block vote they own, plus any owners they can convince to vote for the increases by sending out compelling letters explaining why it needs to be done. The board wants to assess, they send out letters, the members send in their proxies and the board votes them however Festiva wants. The Festiva management company runs short of money every year, the reserves are depleted, and the resort must be upgraded all at the expense of the owners. Owners get mad and quit. Festiva gets more weeks they own which they now can vote and make money on selling Festiva Points. The remaining owners complain to the board who doesn't care because they no longer represent the owners, they represent Festiva. The resort is now totally controlled by Festiva and there is nothing the owners can do about it other than sell. It all started with 20% or less ownership by Festiva.

Resorts who sell their unsold or reposessed inventory to Festiva are letting the fox into the henhouse with dire results. Any Equivest points owner or deeded week owner who swaps to Festiva Points is doing the same terrible thing to the other owners at their resort.


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## Kozman

I wouldn't touch Festiva with a ten foot pole!


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## somerville

tombo said:


> ... Any Equivest points owner or deeded week owner who swaps to Festiva Points is doing the same terrible thing to the other owners at their resort.


That is not quite true.  If your points are what Equivest calls New points (not converted from a deeded week, which you still own (Charter membership)), then the intervals are held by the trust, which Festiva already controls.  Even with the Charter membership, Equivest, and hence Festiva, exercises a right to vote those intervals.  One former Equivest/Pettertree resort, Outer Banks Beach Club, took Equivest to court and obtained a ruling that the Charters members/owners have the right to vote, not Equivest.  That ruling occurred when Wyndham/Fairfield owned Equivest.


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## somerville

tombo said:


> Sorry, those weren't Festiva Points. About 6 months ago on a Festiva thread I posted a Festiva Points auction that had a starting bid price of $99, and it didn't receive a bid. Some of the other auctions I watched in the past ( like the ones I recently listed) might have been equivest points. Here is an ad for Curch Street Inn for 20 points in an every odd year floating. The auction number is 250388044057   and it doesn't specifically say Festiva points so I can't be sure.


Most, if not all, of those auctions were for Equivest points.  When Wyndham/Fairfield owned Equivest, many of these same sellers on eBay would advertise their auctions under those brands.

I don't know what kind of points are being offered in the Church Street auction, but they are not Equivest or Festiva, as you couldn't even get a night's lodging for 20 points under either system.

FYI, 1 Equivest point = 1.7 Festiva points.  1,300 Equivest points = 2,300 Festiva points.  Neither 1,300 Equivest points nor 2,300 Festiva points will buy much - mostly off season.


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## Sou13

*I left out one important detail!*



> It looks as though as though it's OK to compare offers here. I own what Festiva considers to be a "green float" week at Southcape. First I had to be scared into converting by being told how deeded owners would be liable for special assessments while Festiva members could count on lower MF's. Then I was told that I had to convert before the offer for my week was rescinded, and that I wasn't supposed to be eligible for as many points as I was being offered.
> 
> The offer of the day was to pay Festiva $2900+195 processing fee and deed my week over to a "trustee" for 40 years, renewable in 10-year increments. My MF was supposed to be lower than the current Southcape MF (but only $20 lower).
> 
> I was never extended an offer to join as a "New" member.



I realized after logging out of the forums that I might have omitted how many points I was supposed to be getting for putting my deeded week into a "trust" and paying Outfield Marketing for the privilege!

My week at that time would have netted me 3500 points.

It is still unclear whether I would have been giving up voting rights at Southcape.  This is why I have incorporated the link to the Master Deed in my signature.  

I have learned from another Festiva Adventure Club member that it is possible to buy points as a "New" member and that there may even be bonus points for doing so!

Southcape Resort has been taken over by New England Vacation Services, which seems to be in partnership with Outfield Marketing, which appears to be a subsidiary of Festiva Resorts.  We Southcape owners who post on TUG would appreciate any info you can give us about how this deal works.  The other link in my signature is to the letter we received when NEVS took over management of our resort.


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## tombo

somerville said:


> That is not quite true.  If your points are what Equivest calls New points (not converted from a deeded week, which you still own (Charter membership)), then the intervals are held by the trust, which Festiva already controls.  Even with the Charter membership, Equivest, and hence Festiva, exercises a right to vote those intervals.  One former Equivest/Pettertree resort, Outer Banks Beach Club, took Equivest to court and obtained a ruling that the Charters members/owners have the right to vote, not Equivest.  That ruling occurred when Wyndham/Fairfield owned Equivest.



The fact that Festiva can vote the majority of the equivest points makes it even more important for owners to keep any weeks or points that have voting rights out of Festiva's hands. This is not an owner friendly company.

I own at Blue Ridge Village in North Carolina and love the resort. Festiva purchased all available inventory and votes from Wyndham who purchased the resort from Peppertree as best I understand it. Phase one is not controlled by Festiva, at least not yet. In Phase two Festiva has control of the majority of votes and they have put 3 Festiva employees on the 5 member board. This is of course a very bad thing for those of us who have to pay for the MF increases and assessments Festiva wants implement to increase their profits. 

I love Blue Ridge Village, but I am scared about future MF increases and assessments that inevitably come once Festiva gains control of a resort. Festiva will send out a newsletter stating that the resort needs ugrading and refurbishing so they must assess. Then every resort they take control of has inadequate reserves, so once again they must assess. Festiva's mgt comany must be the least efficient mgt company in the entire timeshare industry because once they take over the management duties at a resort they can never operate on a budget even close to what the previous mgt company operated on for years. Now Festiva enacts a double digit MF increase so they can somehow make ends meet. They did all of these things at The Atrium, Church Street Inn, and they have sent out letters at all of the equivest resorts they acquired setting the stage to do the same things there. 

The resorts Festiva has acquired are great resorts that many owners love, but Festiva is so greedy that once they gain control of a resort they make it so expensive that many owners have to sell a place they love. I am trying to make sure that no one gives them a single vote more than they currently control  and that no one who reads these posts buys or swaps their weeks for Festiva points which are virtually worthless from the auctions I have seen which receive no bids. If Festiva can't sell any Festiva Adventure Club memberships, or get any owners to convert to Festiva Points, they might go broke. That would be a very good thing for owners at resorts controlled by Festiva IMO.


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## timeos2

*They all want control - don't pay them to grant it!*



tombo said:


> This is a very bad result. Festive gains control of a resort and makes a lot of money by assessing owners, increasing MF's and  voting themselves the mgt company IMO.
> 
> People don't understand how Festiva can buy a small percentage of a resort and take it over. If Festiva can become owners of 20% of the total inventory by buying HOA owned weeks combined with the weeks they get owners to give them to become "Festiva Adventure Club Points members", they can take over your resort. Anyone who has ever been a board member knows that it is hard to get enough owners to mail in their votes each year to obtain a quorum of 51%. A large percentage of the owners don't bother to vote or send in their proxies.  Festiva will vote 100% of their 20% ownership for whatever agenda they have. If only 31% of the remaining owners mail in their proxys, they have a quorum. Festiva puts it's own employees and other people who will vote however Festiva wants on the list of board candidates to vote for. If there are 2 people running for office, Festive votes 100% of their 20% for their candidates. All it takes is for 6% of the 31% of owners who actually voted in this example to vote for the Festiva candidates (who aren't listed that way on the ballot) and you have a Festiva controlled board (26% beats 25% every time). 49% of the owners never bothered to vote and the 25% that did vote against Festiva's board lost to Festiva's 20% ownership and 6% of voters who liked what it said on the nominee's resume.



Far too many owners buy into plans (not just the infamous Festiva) that take away their deeded and voting rights. BIG mistake IMO.  You need every bit of guaranteed ownership you can get and still have to hope for competent HOA management. Putting your future ownership/rights in the hands of ANY developer group is a nightmare waiting to happen.  Avoid that mistake.


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## timeos2

*Maybe it can be undone*



tombo said:


> The fact that Festiva can vote the majority of the equivest points makes it even more important for owners to keep any weeks or points that have voting rights out of Festiva's hands. This is not an owner friendly company.
> 
> I own at Blue Ridge Village in North Carolina and love the resort. Festiva purchased all available inventory and votes from Wyndham who purchased the resort from Peppertree as best I understand it. Phase one is not controlled by Festiva, at least not yet. In Phase two Festiva has control of the majority of votes and they have put 3 Festiva employees on the 5 member board. This is of course a very bad thing for those of us who have to pay for the MF increases and assessments Festiva wants implement to increase their profits.



You should look at the timeshare regualtions for the State. In FL for example the Developer CANNOT retake control of the HOA once it is turned over to owner control. And that applies to subsequent developers (those that buy out the rights from the original builder/developer).  If your state is the same then the takeover can be blocked or if it already occurred (hopefully) reversed. Of course you need to rally the owner base and have the money to fight them - neither easy to do.  The rogue Developers like Festiva depend on that to weasel their way in without challenge.


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## tombo

timeos2 said:


> You should look at the timeshare regualtions for the State. In FL for example the Developer CANNOT retake control of the HOA once it is turned over to owner control. And that applies to subsequent developers (those that buy out the rights from the original builder/developer).  If your state is the same then the takeover can be blocked or if it already occurred (hopefully) reversed. Of course you need to rally the owner base and have the money to fight them - neither easy to do.  The rogue Developers like Festiva depend on that to weasel their way in without challenge.



Festiva based themselves in North Carolina, so I would assume that is a state with laws that they like. Rallying the owner base is hard to do because few are TUG members and Festiva won't let you put flyers in the mailings. Few go to the annual meeting. Most owners simply know what Festiva mails them. It would be great to fight them, but the money and owner base needed would be hard to come by, and they have an attorney on retainer. The best I think we could hope for is the State Attorney General getting after them like the AG in Missouri did. The Atrium owners filed a law suit in St Maarten, so that is a possibility too but could be very expensive. A lot of people want to fight them until you ask for their time or money. Most owners will just sell if it gets too expensive because that is the easiest way to get rid of Festiva.


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## somerville

Sou13 said:


> I have learned from another Festiva Adventure Club member that it is possible to buy points as a "New" member and that there may even be bonus points for doing so!


This is probably some developer sales gimmick.  If you buy at an inflated developer price, they can throw in some bonus points to make you think you are getting a deal.  Believe me, you will be paying for those "bonus points".


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## Sou13

*Response from Festiva*

I found this in a reply from Festiva posted on the Equivest-PeppertreeOwners · Equivest -Peppertree Timesh-Vacatn Club:   



> If your property is paid in full and you have no outstanding balances you can request to release your timeshare back to Festiva Resorts. You would not be compensated in this situation, but you would be relieved of any future maintenance fee responsibility. Let us know if you have any questions.



I joined this group to learn about problems with Festiva.  I don't post there because I own a deeded Interval at Southcape, which has become affiliated with Festiva and has employed Outfield Marketing to cinvince, coerce, or scare deeded owners into converting to Festiva points.


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## Sou13

*Reply to tombo*

Your percentages have my head spinning.  It looks as though it's impossible for an Owners' Association to block any takeover of the resort.

We deeded owners of Intervals at Southcape Resort don't know how the fox got into the henhouse but we know now that we need to contact all owners and only 10 have shown up on TUG.

I found M.G.L. 183B by perusing the Master Deed which is on the Southcape Resort website but not on the home page.  It was sent to my by request, as was the 2009 budget.  The duty of the developer or manager to keep owners informed is spelled out in these laws.


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## santafe

I attended a Festiva presentation in order to receive (in exchange for listening) 2 free airline tickets.  I was given a coupon to mail off to get my tickets.  Do you know if anyone actually gets the free tickets?


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## somerville

santafe said:


> I attended a Festiva presentation in order to receive (in exchange for listening) 2 free airline tickets.  I was given a coupon to mail off to get my tickets.  Do you know if anyone actually gets the free tickets?


I don't have any personal experience, but from other posts that I have read, I would say your chances are not good.  I bet you will find they don't have anything available the dates and destinations to where you want to travel.


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## Sou13

*How many points?*



santafe said:


> I attended a Festiva presentation in order to receive (in exchange for listening) 2 free airline tickets.  I was given a coupon to mail off to get my tickets.  Do you know if anyone actually gets the free tickets?



The question is, how many points were you offered in exchange for what kind of week and at what price?


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## FestivaRep

Sou13 said:


> Southcape Resort has been taken over by New England Vacation Services, which seems to be in partnership with Outfield Marketing, which appears to be a subsidiary of Festiva Resorts.  We Southcape owners who post on TUG would appreciate any info you can give us about how this deal works.  The other link in my signature is to the letter we received when NEVS took over management of our resort.



Just to clarify, Outfield Marketing is not a subsidiary of Festiva Resorts, but is a third party company that we have a contract with to sell FAC memberships at Southcape.


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## FestivaRep

somerville said:


> I don't know what kind of points are being offered in the Church Street auction, but they are not Equivest or Festiva, as you couldn't even get a night's lodging for 20 points under either system.



I haven't seen the specific auction that is mentioned for the Church Street 'points' but from my experience this sounds like a deeded week from Church Street that was purchased prior to Festiva introducing the points Club in 2006.  

When weeks were being sold at the Church Street Inn, that particular resort allowed their owners to use their week within the usage year as either 7 nights, or to split the week up into shorter stays.  To keep track of this, a value of '20 points' was assigned to any deeded week at CSI.  This was something that was only offered at CSI, for CSI owners.  

It has/had nothing to do with the current points system of the Adventure Club or the FAC.  It could only be used by Church Street owners, and only at Church Street.

I'm not sure when this option first became available to CSI owners (it was already there when I started working here in 2005) but may have existed prior to Festiva purchasing the property in 2002.


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## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> Just to clarify, Outfield Marketing is not a subsidiary of Festiva Resorts, but is a third party company that we have a contract with to sell FAC memberships at Southcape.



The attorney general in Missouri filed a suit against Festiva in 2005 which was settled in 2008. Festiva settled and paid restitution of over $324,000. When you responded on a previous thread you said that it was a 3rd party company handling the sales in Missouri, not Festiva. If I hired a sales force to do a job for me and they operated totally against my sales procedures and guidelines causing me to lose $324,000, I would sue them to recoup my loss. Why was there never was a law suit filed by Festiva suing that 3rd party sales force you hired? They were hired by Festiva to do a sales job for Festiva. There were many complaints lodged before the Missouri AG ever got involved. Why wait to terminate the 3rd pary sales force until after the AG files suit? The 3rd party company should have been fired because of all of the customer complaints well before the law suit was even filed. The fact that a 3rd party is marketing your points doesn't absolve Festiva of responsibility which a $324,000 settlement proves. Festiva recruits the 3rd party company, they hire them, they give the 3rd party guidelines they want adhered to (or at least they should), and they authorize them to represent Festiva when they enter into contracts with customers.  Whether it was Festiva or a 3rd party making false claims and making threats to owners makes no difference. Festiva hired the 3rd party so Festiva was/is responsible for the 3rd party's actions no matter what spin Festiva tries to put on it IMO and apparently in the opinion of the Missouri AG since he filed suit against Festiva.

Fast forward to 2009. You now say that Outfield Mktg is not a subsidiary of Festiva, but it is a 3rd party company hired to sell memberships at Southscape (Hmm, this sounds familiar). There are many owners complaining here about Outfield Mktg, their claims, and their sales tactics (once again seems like old times). Festiva of course does not condone any false or misleading sales tactics, but they repeatedly hire 3rd party companies to market for them that allegedly do just that from what I have read on posts here on TUG. Why would a company hire a 3rd party sales force and set them free to do what they want after the same tactic cost you $324,000 in 2008? I wonder how long and how many complaints it will take before the AG files suit against Outfield Mktg. Of course if there is a law suit filed it won't be Festiva's fault because it wasn't Festiva's sales force, it was a 3rd party sales force (hired and authorized to sell by Festiva). Who keeps hiring and training these third parties to sell Festiva' memberships? Is Festiva so removed from the sales process that they use no oversight and have no control over how a 3rd party markets Festiva's points? Will it once again take action by an AG to resolve the complaints at Southscape, or will Festiva begin to activelly answer and mediate customer complaints on Outfield Mktg's alleged misrepresentations and threats posted here on TUG ? If the AG files suit will it end up being Festiva's fault or Outfield Mktg's fault after the dust settles? As we saw in Missouri, it will once again be a suit filed against Festiva, not the 3rd party. Can anyone say "Deja Vu"?


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## somerville

FestivaRep said:


> Just to clarify, Outfield Marketing is not a subsidiary of Festiva Resorts, but is a third party company that we have a contract with to sell FAC memberships at Southcape.


Whether a subsidiary or not, Festiva is responsible for the actions of its contractors and agents.  At least that is what we learned from the Missouri Attorney General, and now Governor, Jay Nixon.


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## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> Will it once again take action by an AG to resolve the complaints at Southscape, or will Festiva begin to activelly answer and mediate customer complaints on Outfield Mktg's alleged misrepresentations and threats posted here on TUG ?



By jumping from wishing to have your issues resolved here on TUG to going straight to the AG, you are skipping an important step. My advice is to send your specific complaint(s) in writing (via mailed letter, not e-mail) to our Owner Services department in Asheville. This is honestly the best way to have your issues directly addressed, mediated and resolved; particularly if there is a high volume of complaints from many members about one specific issue (i.e. Outfield). It's much easier for us to address issues when we have your specific information, situation, etc., rather than just a collection of general complaints from nameless people in unknown circumstances.

While I can provide certain information and answer general questions here on TUG, this is not a forum for solving individual issues. This is why we have an Owner Services department, and if you are organized and persistent enough in your communication with them, you will see results.


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## Sou13

*Outfield Marketing/NEVS partnership*



Sanford said:


> He was very nice and informative. Our conversation led me to believe that there is not as much going on negatively as has been presented or possibly assumed.
> 
> Mr. Hagberg seems to be a  professsional and also indicated that he is a property owner at Southcape who stated that his interests are in making Southcape the best Southcaoe it can be.
> 
> He stated that there will be transparency in the budgeting and dealings, and that  to the extent Festiva ends up with a Points system, it will be optional, and they will not have voting rights as the voting rights will remain with the deeded owners.
> 
> He stated that New England Vacation Services LLC of which he is one of four principals, or managing members, and the other 3 are principals of Outfield Marketing.
> 
> He stated that the special assessment would raise sufficient funds in his professional opinion to upgrade and make neccessary repairs and improvements and taht there would be a budget and source and use of funds sheet prepared and distributed.
> 
> He stated that the Board of Trustees of Southcape was contemplating establishing an advisory council of selected owners to particiapte in decisions and assist in distributre information to other owners etc.
> 
> Further that the similarity between Southcape and Sandcastle were such in that he is the owner of a different entity that is involved in that. http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=679004#post679004



From Sanford's post we learn that New England Vacation Services is in partnership with Outfield Marketing.  How else can there be three principals of Outfield Marketing on Southcape's Board?


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## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> By jumping from wishing to have your issues resolved here on TUG to going straight to the AG, you are skipping an important step. My advice is to send your specific complaint(s) in writing (via mailed letter, not e-mail) to our Owner Services department in Asheville. This is honestly the best way to have your issues directly addressed, mediated and resolved; particularly if there is a high volume of complaints from many members about one specific issue (i.e. Outfield). It's much easier for us to address issues when we have your specific information, situation, etc., rather than just a collection of general complaints from nameless people in unknown circumstances.
> 
> While I can provide certain information and answer general questions here on TUG, this is not a forum for solving individual issues. This is why we have an Owner Services department, and if you are organized and persistent enough in your communication with them, you will see results.



I appreciate that you have a customer service department, but having to write complaint letters (not e-mails) to the customer service department is a time consuming task that most won't do. If someone feels  so mistreated and ignored that the only way to get anyone's attention at the home office is to be persistent and write numerous letters, why not write the letters to someone who will listen and care like the AG's office?

If Festiva really cares about what is being said and done in the sales presentations, then why doesn't Festiva do what so many businesses do and send "secret shoppers" (hire both current owners and potential owners) to some Outfield sales presentations to see what is being said and done. You might be surprised to hear what they say to try and make a sale. On the other hand you might already know what is being said by Outfield, but would rather be able to appear shocked, surprised, and dismayed in court by the tactics your 3rd party sales force used without your knowledge, just in case another law suit is filed against Festiva. I am sure that it would be easier to defend yourself against a suit filed due to the wrongful actions of a 3rd party sales force if you could claim that you had no idea that such tactics were being used, than it would be to defend yourself and your employees for using the same tactics. Could that be why Festiva uses 3rd party sales forces to sell FAC rather than doing it with Festiva employees?


 If Festiva really cares about how their customers are treated, why wait until they have already been mistreated and are mad? Rather than expecting owners to be "persistent and organized enough" to get the attention of Festiva's service department, how about Festiva being proactive in handling customer complaints. There are plenty of complaints listed here and I am sure if you had a post sales presentation survey to be filled out after people had been through the presentation (with pre paid postage) that you would get a good idea of how the majority of attendees feel about what was said and how they were treated. If your only criteria for Outfield's success is the total number of sales and sales dollars they generate, then of course you wouldn't care what those who didn't buy think even if they are currently owners at the resort. If Festiva doesn't care, why would your 3rd party sales force care either?


----------



## elaine

*Festiva Rep--thank you--questions about Atlantic Beach*

Thank you for coming back to answer questions at TUG.  I am a Peppertree Atlantic Beach Owner.  I would like to know whether any Festiva-associated people are on the Board of Directors at Peppertree Atlantic Beach and also what plans Festiva has for Peppertee Atlantic beach--whether drastically remodel, new kitchens, build more units, etc.  At this point, I am neutral about Festiva--but hearing all the issues on TUG makes me very worried. thanks, Elaine


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## Sou13

*Public Offering Statement*

Here is the "Public Offering Statement" of the Festiva Adventure Club:

*



			Club Membership Timeshare Interest
Public Offering Statement
Festiva Resorts Adventure Club
Effective Date: August 11, 2006
		
Click to expand...

*​


> Purchaser: _____________________________       ____________________________________
> Print                                      Print
> _____________________________       ____________________________________
> Print                                      Print
> This Public Offering Statement is presented to prospective purchasers in compliance with the requirements of the Vacation Time Sharing Plans Act, South Carolina Code § 27-32-10, et. seq. (1976, as amended). Capitalized terms shall have the meanings ascribed to them in the Declaration and related Club documents for the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club.
> 
> 1. *Seller*. The seller of the vacation time sharing plan is Festiva Development Group, LLC, a Nevada company, whose principal address is One Vance Gap Rd., Asheville, NC 28805 ("Seller").
> 
> 2. *Time Sharing Plan and Club Description*. The Declarant is offering "*Memberships*" in Festiva Resorts Adventure Club (the "*Vacation Club*" or "*Club*"), which is operated by Festiva Resorts Adventure Club Members Association, Inc., a non-stock, non-profit corporation organized under South Carolina law (the " *Association*"). The Declarant has established the Club as a uniform plan under which it will acquire Resort Interests, which may or may not be interests in real property, that will be placed in Trust in order to provide Accommodations for Members under right-to-use programs, using points denominations in conjunction with the reservation system more fully described in the Club documents. The Declarant will cause or has caused the Resort Interests to be transferred to a "*Trustee*," free and clear of all Blanket Liens or with a Non-Disturbance Agreement in place with respect to any Blanket Lien that continues to encumber such Resort Interests, to be held in the corresponding "*Trust*" for the benefit of the Association and its Members. Prior to each such conveyance of Resort Interests, the Declarant will assign values denominated in a currency known as "*Points*" to the subject Resort Interests based on various factors, including supply and demand, location and time of year, as well as by comparing each Resort Interest with others. Points are the currency of use in the Vacation Club through which Members have the right to reserve and use on a recurring, non-priority, annual basis recreational accommodations in timeshare units ("*Club Accommodations*") available by reason of the conveyed Resort Interests. The Club Accommodations are and will be located in various U.S. and Caribbean resort locations ("*Component Sites*"), which are listed in the appropriate Club documents.
> 
> Members in the Club are either “*Converting Members*” or “*New Members*.”  A Converting Member is the holder of legal title to a Resort Interest in a resort who has elected to acquire a Membership in the Vacation Club by signing and delivering to the Declarant a Purchase Agreement, an Assignment of Beneficial Use Rights, and all other required documents and instruments.  A New Member is any Member who is not a Converting Member.
> 
> *A purchaser should not rely upon representations other than those included in the contract and this disclosure.statement.*
> 
> Acknowledgment of Receipt of Public Offering Statement
> 
> I/we have received a copy of a Public Offering Statement effective August 11, 2006, and consisting of three (3) pages and one (1) exhibit as required by Section 27-32-100 of the Vacation Time Sharing Plans Act, South Carolina Code § 27-32-10, et. seq, (1976, as amended).
> 
> 
> 
> (Signature Date Signature Date Signature Date Signature Date)
> 
> 
> 3. *Points*. Points are the currency of use in the Vacation Club through which Members have the right to reserve the use and occupancy of Club Accommodations in accordance with the terms, provisions, and conditions of the Vacation Club Instruments. Each Member shall be allotted a specific number of annually recurring Points in his or her Purchase Agreement, which number shall be entered in the Register of Members. If a Member acquires multiple Memberships, then the Points allotted annually to each such Membership may be aggregated for reservation purposes. As a matter of convenience, each time that a Membership is issued or the number of Points ascribed to a Membership changes as entered in the Register of Members, the Association will issue a Points Certificate indicating the number of Points associated with the particular Membership purchase or transaction of a Member. The precise details of a Member's Points and how they are used within the Club are outlined more fully in the Club instruments. Specifically, the Club Rules and Regulations govern the reservation, use, and occupancy of Club Accommodations.
> 
> 4. *Interval International*. The Club has an agreement with Interval International, Inc. ("ll") of Miami, Florida, wherein II has agreed to provide its exchange program to Club Members. II is an independently owned and operated service company. Seller is not an agent for II and no representations or promises made by Seller or its agents are binding on II. II's responsibility for representations regarding its exchange program, as well as II's current or future services, is limited to those made in written materials furnished by II. Purchaser's participation in such exchange program is voluntary and subject to the payment by Purchaser of such Membership, exchange, and other miscellaneous fees as are required from time to time by II. Seller makes no representations concerning the current or future services to be provided by II or the availability, continuance, success or failure of the II exchange program.
> 
> 5. *Charges to Which Purchaser May Be Subject*. To efficiently and effectively provide for the administration of the Club by the Members, a non-profit South Carolina corporation, known and designated as the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club Members Association, Inc. (the "Association"), has been organized, and said corporation shall administer the operation and management of the Club. The Association has the authority and power to enforce the provisions of the Club instruments, including levying and collecting assessments, and adopting and enforcing Rules and Regulations governing use and occupancy of the various Resort Interests of the Club and any Common Elements, and Limited Common Elements. In this regard, the Association may assess and collect fees for the use of amenities and services, including but not limited to late penalties, holdover penalties, extraordinary cleaning costs, costs for damage to units, reservation fees, and other reasonable fees that the Board of Directors determines to be in the best interest of the Club. The Association is further authorized to enter into a management agreement whereby the Association may delegate some or all of its powers and authority to a managing agent. In such an event, the managing agent may also have the authority to levy and collect assessments and fees and to enforce the Rules and Regulations and other Club instruments.
> 
> 6. *Description of Furniture, Fixtures, and Appliances*. Due to the variety of inventory in the Club, a general description of all furniture, fixtures and appliances to be located in the accommodations at each resort location is available from Festiva's Owner Services Department.
> 
> 7. *Management Agreement*. Seller has entered into a management agreement with Festiva Management Group, LLC ("Manager"), for the operation, administration, and maintenance of the Club and its various accommodations and facilities. The original term of the agreement expires on August 11, 2011, and the agreement automatically renews for successive five (5) year periods unless terminated. Pursuant to the management agreement, Manager is responsible for organizing meetings of the Members, preparing annual budgets, maintaining financial records of the Association, collecting assessments from Members, hiring operational and maintenance staff, and maintaining and repairing the premises. In' order to effectively perform its duties under 1he management agreement, Manager is further authorized to subcontract any of its management functions to third parties.
> 
> 8. *Protection of Purchaser's Interest*. In order to protect purchaser's interest from loss due to foreclosure on an underlying financial obligation, Seller has entered into a Trust Agreement and an Escrow Agreement with InterCity Escrow Services, and, pursuant to this agreement, Club accommodation must be unencumbered prior to being available for use in the Club. Additionally, all deposits paid by purchaser shall be retained in a trust account and shall not be released to Seller until all liens and encumbrances secured by the accommodation or timeshare interval have been paid and satisfied in full.
> 
> 9. *Assurances of Completion*. All Club accommodations, units, and facilities are complete or substantially complete as of the date of sale. All Club amenities and facilities are complete at the time of sale. Seller is obligated to maintain sufficient Accommodations within the Club to satisfy all points which have been sold to purchasers in the Club, which ensures that it maintains the legally required accommodations to Member ratio.
> 
> 10. *Salesperson Obligations*. Salespersons for the Club represent Seller and not prospective purchasers.
> 
> 11. *Personal Use*. You should purchase a Club Membership as a vacation experience and for your personal use and enjoyment. You should not purchase a Club Membership as an investment or for profit upon its rental or resale.
> 
> 12. *Resale*. Seller currently has no resale program, but purchasers may seek to resell their Club Memberships on their own or through a licensed real estate broker of their choice. Seller requires that all outstanding fees and payments, including the entire outstanding loan balance, be paid in full prior to any transfer of ownership. Any incidental benefits included with the purchase of a Club Membership are transferable to a resale purchaser at the sole discretion of Seller. Membership in Interval International is not transferable. In the event of a resale, Seller and/or the Association reserve the right to charge a reasonable fee for processing the transfer of ownership to a resale purchaser. There are no differentiations in the usage of Club Memberships purchased by a consumer through someone other than Seller.
> 
> *There is a lien or lien right against each Membership to secure the payment of assessments or other amounts due from obligors to the association in accordance with the operating budget and special assessments and to secure payment of assessments for ad valorem real estate taxes. A purchaser's failure to make the required payments may result in foreclosure of an assessment lien. Assessment liens may be foreclosed in accordance with judicial procedures established by law or with a nonjudicial procedure established by Article 3 of Chapter 32 of Title 27 of the Code of Laws of South Carolina. By purchasing a Club Membership in the Club/timeshare plan described in this public offering statement, a purchaser acknowledges and agrees that any assessment lien against the Membership owned by a purchaser may be foreclosed by a nonjudicial procedure and agrees that the notice of a foreclosure by a nonjudicial procedure may be made by the use of certified or registered mail. The purchaser is required to provide an address for the delivery of aIl notices required by law and to inform the managing entity of any changes in the purchaser's notice address. *
> 
> NEVS/FAC/9-30-08



It is clear to me that Festiva is actively engaging Outfield Marketing to convince, coerce, or scare deeded Southcape owners into "converting" to Festiva "points" so that Southcape can be taken over by Festiva Resorts.  If this were not the case, how did Southcape become incorporated into the Festiva "Family of Resorts"?

When we Southcape deeded Interval owners first heard of Festiva, it was in the introductory letter (linked in my signature below) accompanying a $70 increase in our Maintenance Fee.  We were led to believe that we were being offered an "exciting opportunity" but the telemarketers wanted to set up appointments in our homes to "explain the changes."

There's a difference between "opportunity" and "changes" and the difference is IMVHO that by "changing" we are giving Festiva Resorts the "opportunity" to take over Southcape Resort.

According to the budget for 2009 there are at least 1800 deeded Interval owners who should be attending the Annual Meeting on the 16th of May.  This does not give NEVS the 51% majority to make decisions for us.  We need to put an item on the agenda to expand the # of Board members to include a representative # of Unit Owners.  This is all spelled out in the Master Deed in my signature below.

I'm posting this info here instead of in the "Southcape Resorts" discussion because we need to reach out to other deeded resort interval owners to warn them to *BEWARE OF FESTIVA*  and *BEWARE OF OUTFIELD MARKETING!*


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## somerville

FestivaRep said:


> By jumping from wishing to have your issues resolved here on TUG to going straight to the AG, you are skipping an important step. My advice is to send your specific complaint(s) in writing (via mailed letter, not e-mail) to our Owner Services department in Asheville. This is honestly the best way to have your issues directly addressed, mediated and resolved; particularly if there is a high volume of complaints from many members about one specific issue (i.e. Outfield). It's much easier for us to address issues when we have your specific information, situation, etc., rather than just a collection of general complaints from nameless people in unknown circumstances...


"Mediated" imlplies the engagement of a third party mediator.  Is Festiva offering to pay for a nuetral mediator to help resolve all disputes?


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## Sou13

*Mediation*



somerville said:


> "Mediated" imlplies the engagement of a third party mediator.  Is Festiva offering to pay for a nuetral mediator to help resolve all disputes?



Here's how disputes get "arbitrated":



> 21. *ARBITRATION*:
> 
> In the event of a dispute between Purchaser and Seller with respect to Seller's performance hereunder, the matter in question may, in Seller's sole discretion, be settled by arbitration in accordance with the commercial arbitration rules of the American Arbitration Association. If a matter in dispute is referred to arbitration, Purchaser and Seller shall each pay one-half (1/2) of the fees and expenses required to initiate the arbitration proceedings. The parties agree, however, that the costs and expenses of arbitration, including attorneys' fees, shall ultimately be borne as determined by the arbitrator. The parties further agree that any arbitration proceeding in connection with this Agreement shall be conducted in Lexington County, South Carolina, and that the decision of the arbitrator with respect to any such matter in dispute shall be final and binding and dispositive of the respective rights and obligations of the parties hereunder.
> 
> 22. *CHOICE OF STATE LAW AND FORUM: WAIVER OF JURY TRIAL: *
> 
> Except to the extent preempted by the laws of the United States of America, this Agreement shall be exclusively governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of South Carolina without regard to such jurisdiction's choice of law rules. Subject to Section 21 above, any legal action or proceeding arising out of or in any way relating to this Agreement shall only be brought in an appropriate court of competent jurisdiction sitting in Lexington County in the State of South Carolina and the parties hereto, on behalf of themselves and their respective successors and assigns, hereby irrevocably submit to the jurisdiction of any such court and agree that venue properly lies solely in such courts to the exclusion of all other judicial and non-judicial forums. EXCEPT AS OTHERWISE PROVIDED BY APPLICABLE LAW, SELLER, PURCHASER, AND ANY OTHER PERSON CLAIMING RIGHTS OR OBLIGATIONS BY, THROUGH, OR UNDER THIS AGREEMENT SHALL BE DEEMED TO HAVE WAIVED ANY RIGHT THEY MAY HAVE UNDER ANY APPLICABLE LAW TO A TRIAL BY JURY IN CONNECTION WITH ANY SUIT OR LEGAL PROCEEDING THAT MAY BE COMMENCED BY OR AGAINST ANY OF THE FOREGOING PERSONS CONCERNING THE INTERPRETATION, CONSTRUCTION, VALIDITY, ENFORCEMENT, OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS AGREEMENT OR ANY OF THE CLUB INSTRUMENTS.



Have I emailed you a copy of the "Terms and Conditons" for membership in the Festiva Adventure Club?


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## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> If Festiva really cares about what is being said and done in the sales presentations, then why doesn't Festiva do what so many businesses do and send "secret shoppers" (hire both current owners and potential owners) to some Outfield sales presentations to see what is being said and done.



There is actually a 'secret shopper' program in the works.  I'm not sure when it will start, or where it will start, but I know that it has been approved and will move forward.


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## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> I appreciate that you have a customer service department, but having to write complaint letters (not e-mails) to the customer service department is a time consuming task that most won't do. If someone feels  so mistreated and ignored that the only way to get anyone's attention at the home office is to be persistent and write numerous letters, why not write the letters to someone who will listen and care like the AG's office?



I did not mean to imply that the only way you will get anyone's attention at the home office is for one person to write numerous letters. I meant that letters from several different owners regarding the same valid issue or problem would stand out. 

Each and every letter that is received in owner services does receive a response. If there are multiple letters from different owners on the same subject, you may have a better chance of getting the change that you desire. By going straight to the AG, you are denying Owner Services the chance to assist you by contacting them personally.

It seems to me that if an issue or complaint is so pressing that it must go to the AG, it would warrant the few minutes of time it takes to first print and mail a letter directly to the company. It doesn't seem that much more time-consuming than an e-mail if it is a serious issue. Personally, I would do both. It's not going to help your case if you do not first make an effort to contact Owner Services to address your complaints.


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## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> I am sure if you had a post sales presentation survey to be filled out after people had been through the presentation (with pre paid postage) that you would get a good idea of how the majority of attendees feel about what was said and how they were treated.



I think this is actually a very good idea. I've never worked in sales (of any kind) and i have a background in customer service.  While I cannot promise that it can or will be implemented, this is something that I will personally present to a couple of different people in the company who could potentially make it happen.


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## ecwinch

*Be gentle*

TUGGer's - just my opinion - but can we dial down the adversarial tone. A number of timeshare related companies have had reps participate on TUG. 

And for the most part those reps soon go the way of the dodo bird. In no small part to the angst they receive from the membership. Just saying that if we want FestivaRep to continue to post we should tone it down a little bit, and afford him/her a little more tolerance.

Recognize that they do not run the company, they are not going to interpret the contract, they cannot right every wrong, fix every problem, and I am sure have just as tough of a time getting answers to questions we raise. And in some cases they cannot get answers either.

But having them here is far better then having no one. Consider the history with the II and RCI  reps among others.


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## FestivaRep

elaine said:


> Thank you for coming back to answer questions at TUG.  I am a Peppertree Atlantic Beach Owner.  I would like to know whether any Festiva-associated people are on the Board of Directors at Peppertree Atlantic Beach and also what plans Festiva has for Peppertee Atlantic beach--whether drastically remodel, new kitchens, build more units, etc.  At this point, I am neutral about Festiva--but hearing all the issues on TUG makes me very worried. thanks, Elaine



Hi Elaine;
I am waiting for a response on how the board at PAB is comprised; I believe the person who has that answer is gone for the day, but I will let you know when I hear back.

As far as I know, there are plans to make repairs and improvements throughout the resort as needed for 2009 - roofing, stairs, decks, handrails, siding, etc. - things that are necessary because of weathering at many beachfront properties. Some units have been refurbished with new interior paint and outlet/light switch plates.  

Other than that, I don't think there are any current plans for drastic remodeling, and I'm fairly certain there will not be any new construction there in the near future.

Within the next few weeks we will be sending out the PAB newsletter to owners by e-mail.  If you wish to receive this, send your name and current e-mail address to myemail@festivaresorts.com.  

I will let you know when I have the information about the board.


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## FestivaRep

ecwinch said:


> TUGGer's - just my opinion - but can we dial down the adversarial tone. A number of timeshare related companies have had reps participate on TUG.



Thanks for your support, Eric.  I am and will continue to do my best to provide what answers, suggestions, information and guidelines I can.  I choose to ignore most of the abusive stuff and will most likely not respond to redundant questions that I have made clear that I cannot personally answer.

Thanks again!


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## Sou13

Sou13 said:


> Is it OK to launch a discussion here of what kind of offers Outfield Marketing is making to deeded interval owners?  Why and how is it possible to join the Club as a "New" member?  Is it OK to post how much it costs for how many points as opposed to how much it costs to convert?



Well, we have really lost sight of the purpose of this discussion, which is supposed to be about the offers made by Outfield Marketing and why it wasn't possible for Southcape owners to join as "New" members.  Or was it, and we were never told?


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## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> There is actually a 'secret shopper' program in the works.  I'm not sure when it will start, or where it will start, but I know that it has been approved and will move forward.



That would be great start if Outfield knows you are going to do it, but they don't know who or when.


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## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> Each and every letter that is received in owner services does receive a response. If there are multiple letters from different owners on the same subject, you may have a better chance of getting the change that you desire. By going straight to the AG, you are denying Owner Services the chance to assist you by contacting them personally.



The Attorney General is not hired, fired, or intimidated by CEO's at Festiva. The AG is hired by the voters to protect the people in his state. Sending a copy of the complaint letters one sends to Festiva to the AG gets the attention of both much more than just sending a letter to one of them. There is no threat of monetary damage to Festiva as a result of owner's complaints, but complaints from the AG's office are a different story.

If one of Festiva's CEO's hadn't stood at our annual meeting last year and said that he had control of the majority of the votes in Phase 2 at Blue Ridge Village, and that he could do whatever he wanted to do at the resort, I might feel that there was a chance that complaints to the customer service dept, and to the board at the resort, might bring some desired changes for owners. However once a CEO says to the owners at the annual meeting" if you don't like it get out. we will let you deed your weeks to us and you can leave" (not an exact quote, but it is real close), I have doubts that the customer service department can overide his mandate.  He can hire and fire employees who work for the customer service dept, and he can vote anyone he wants on or off the board because as he said, he controls the votes and can do whatever he wants. I didn't get a warm fuzzy feeling from his welcome to Festiva speech which was delivered to the owners at Festiva's first annual meeting at Blue Ridge Village. You don't get a second chance to make a good first impression.


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## wmauryd

*Festiva Rep Questions*

Thank you for your post offering to answer questions: 

Are you, or is Festiva, or is Outfield Marketing operating onsite at Southcape? If no, are you, Festiva, or Outfield Marketing operating from any Southcape units? Or a single SC unit?


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## Sanford

Please be fully Informed of the Southcape possible hostile takeover attempt

Learn about what has been going on and don't be fooled:

See Threads at:
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84127 

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93380

{Edited by Bill4728: Since this post is already being discussed in those threads I'm moving this post there.}


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## FestivaRep

wmauryd said:


> Thank you for your post offering to answer questions:
> 
> Are you, or is Festiva, or is Outfield Marketing operating onsite at Southcape? If no, are you, Festiva, or Outfield Marketing operating from any Southcape units? Or a single SC unit?



It's my understanding that Outfield is operating onsite at Southcape selling the Festiva Adventure Club.  I haven't actually been to that property, so I don't know exactly where on the property they are.  There are no actual Festiva employees there.


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## FestivaRep

Sou13 said:


> Well, we have really lost sight of the purpose of this discussion, which is supposed to be about the offers made by Outfield Marketing and why it wasn't possible for Southcape owners to join as "New" members.  Or was it, and we were never told?



I'll look into this.  Just to clarify, by joining 'new' members, do you mean whether the option is available to keep your week at SC, and join the FAC?


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## FestivaRep

elaine said:


> Thank you for coming back to answer questions at TUG.  I am a Peppertree Atlantic Beach Owner.  I would like to know whether any Festiva-associated people are on the Board of Directors at Peppertree Atlantic Beach and also what plans Festiva has for Peppertee Atlantic beach--whether drastically remodel, new kitchens, build more units, etc.  At this point, I am neutral about Festiva--but hearing all the issues on TUG makes me very worried. thanks, Elaine



Elaine,

There are no Festiva employees on the board at Peppertree Atlantic Beach.


----------



## Sou13

*"New" FAC Members*



FestivaRep said:


> I'll look into this.  Just to clarify, by joining 'new' members, do you mean whether the option is available to keep your week at SC, and join the FAC?



If you will go back to my "Public Offering Statement" post you will find this:



> Members in the Club are either “*Converting Members*” or “*New Members*.” A Converting Member is the holder of legal title to a Resort Interest in a resort who has elected to acquire a Membership in the Vacation Club by signing and delivering to the Declarant a Purchase Agreement, an Assignment of Beneficial Use Rights, and all other required documents and instruments. A New Member is any Member who is not a Converting Member.



When I kept my appointment with Greg Hughes, onsite Outfield Marketing sales rep *located in Southcape Unit 32* he never offered me the option of joining the Festiva Adventure Club as a "New" member.  The focus of the meeting was on *scaring* me into "converting" to FAC by forecasting escalating special assessments for deeded owners while reasoning (not exactly *promising*) that maintenance fees for FAC members would remain lower than those for deeded Southcape owners.

In reality, I learned that the MF he offered was actually not the MF for 2009.  It was the MF for 3500 points in 2008, but that was raised to $602 for 2009, which is actually higher than the MF for Southcape.

I also learned that converting members no longer have access to the benefits of deeded members, including those promised by NEVS in the link to the letter in my signature below.

FestivaRep, can you find out for me why the members of the Southcape Board are "principals of Outfield Marketing"?


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## somerville

FestivaRep said:


> Elaine,
> 
> There are no Festiva employees on the board at Peppertree Atlantic Beach.


Are all of the board members interval owners?  If not, what is their affiliation with the resort and/or Festiva?


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## Sou13

FestivaRep said:


> It seems to me that if an issue or complaint is so pressing that it must go to the AG, it would warrant the few minutes of time it takes to first print and mail a letter directly to the company. It doesn't seem that much more time-consuming than an e-mail if it is a serious issue. Personally, I would do both. It's not going to help your case if you do not first make an effort to contact Owner Services to address your complaints.



Director, Owner Services
Festiva Development Group, LLC
1 Vance Gap Road
Ashville, NC 28805


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## tombo

somerville said:


> Are all of the board members interval owners?  If not, what is their affiliation with the resort and/or Festiva?



Good question! Festiva slips in employees of the mgt company (either a division of Festiva or a 3rd party company hired and fired by Festiva) at the resort to positions on the board. Festiva also places employees of the 3rd party marketing company (also hired and fired by Festiva), and other people beholding to Festiva in one way or another to positions on the board. Sometimes it is actually Festiva employees they place on the board. No matter what their relationship to Festiva is, they shouldn't be on the board. The board should be composed totally of MF paying individuals who own at the resort!


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## Sou13

*Found on another forum*



> Festiva goes to points and charges Thousands
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> On July 3, 2006 we purchased a time share from Festiva Resorts LLC for $7900 plus $345 in processing fees, a total of $8245. At that time we were told by our sales rep Mr. King that we should invest in the Festiva time share because it did not deal with a point system. He said that on a point system you could never accumulate enough points to enjoy any other resorts other than your home base.
> On May 14, 2006 not even a year later, we were visited in our home by Glenn Malone a representative from Outfield Marketing LTD. They represent Festiva to inform all owners that Festiva, effective June 15, 2007, is changing to the point system. In fact all of the best resorts were changing to a point system, Marriott, Hilton, Shell, Fairfield and Disney. Within the next few years Outfield Marketing will work with Festiva and would convert all of the Festiva resorts to the point system. “100%”
> “Now as an owner you can not sue Festiva for changing there basic business concept,” we were told, “because we are offered the option to keep our current plan.” However you will have little or no chance to use your weeks as trade since all of the resorts and owners with Feativa will be converting to the point system.”
> Glenn went on to say that he needs us to decide to switch right now because the owner of Festiva is offering a one time fee to switch of only $2990 plus a $195 in processing. We could call him on his cell phone at 417-231-3567 by 8am May 15 and he could hold this rate but he would need a check at that time. If we waited until June 15th when the change goes into effect it will cost us an additional $8950.
> This sounds to me like a breach of the original intent of the agreement and blackmail. It is my opinion that if they want to change the way that we are to do business we should not be charged for the change. I am not an attorney but if you are a Festiva owner and would like to join me in seeking legal advice regarding our rights and any action we might take as a group please contact me.



There seem to be a lot of complaints about FAC on that forum!


----------



## elaine

*yes, I would like to know which ones actually own weeks*

which Boards members actually own weeks at Peppertree Atlantic Beach?


----------



## FestivaRep

Sou13 said:


> Director, Owner Services
> Festiva Development Group, LLC
> 1 Vance Gap Road
> Ashville, NC 28805



That's correct, also:

Fax: 828-254-5297
ownerservices@festivaresorts.com


----------



## FestivaRep

elaine said:


> which Boards members actually own weeks at Peppertree Atlantic Beach?



Elaine;

I will check with the general manager of Atlantic Beach and will let you know.  You may even be able to contact someone at the resort to get a full list of board members with names and addresses, I will see who you can contact for that.


----------



## FestivaRep

elaine said:


> which Boards members actually own weeks at Peppertree Atlantic Beach?



Elaine;

PAB has 5 board members, and they are all owners there.


----------



## wmauryd

*Festiva Rep Questions*

Does Festiva, Outfield Marketing, or the reps of either have an arrangement to operate onsite at Southcape? An earlier post mentioned a unit number.  If yes, was this an arrangement okayed by Southcape's management, or board of trustees?


----------



## FestivaRep

wmauryd said:


> Does Festiva, Outfield Marketing, or the reps of either have an arrangement to operate onsite at Southcape? An earlier post mentioned a unit number.  If yes, was this an arrangement okayed by Southcape's management, or board of trustees?



Yes, Outfield Marketing does have an arrangement with Southcape's management to sell the Festiva Adventure Club on-site at Southcape.


----------



## Sou13

*Voting rights*



> Originally Posted by Sanford
> He was very nice and informative. Our conversation led me to believe that there is not as much going on negatively as has been presented or possibly assumed.
> 
> Mr. Hagberg seems to be a professsional and also indicated that he is a property owner at Southcape who stated that his interests are in making Southcape the best Southcaoe it can be.
> 
> He stated that there will be transparency in the budgeting and dealings, and that to the extent Festiva ends up with a Points system, it will be optional, and they will not have voting rights as the voting rights will remain with the deeded owners.
> 
> He stated that New England Vacation Services LLC of which he is one of four principals, or managing members, and the other 3 are principals of Outfield Marketing.
> 
> He stated that the special assessment would raise sufficient funds in his professional opinion to upgrade and make neccessary repairs and improvements and taht there would be a budget and source and use of funds sheet prepared and distributed.
> 
> He stated that the Board of Trustees of Southcape was contemplating establishing an advisory council of selected owners to particiapte in decisions and assist in distributre information to other owners etc.
> 
> Further that the similarity between Southcape and Sandcastle were such in that he is the owner of a different entity that is involved in that. http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthr...004#post679004



If voting rights belong only to deeded owners, what becomes of the voting rights of converting members?  If all Intervals at Southcape were sold there should be approximately 55x51 votes.  But if deeded owners convert, they are no longer deeded owners.

Furthermore, as deeded owners convert to Festiva points, does Festiva pay Southcape $593.88 per converted owner?  If not, how can Southcape keep its deeded owners from unfair MF escalation and Special Assessments if the pool of deeded owners is shrinking thanks to Outfield Marketing and the Festiva Adventure Club?


----------



## somerville

Sou13 said:


> If voting rights belong only to deeded owners, what becomes of the voting rights of converting members?  If all Intervals at Southcape were sold there should be approximately 55x51 votes.  But if deeded owners convert, they are no longer deeded owners.
> 
> Furthermore, as deeded owners convert to Festiva points, does Festiva pay Southcape $593.88 per converted owner?  If not, how can Southcape keep its deeded owners from unfair MF escalation and Special Assessments if the pool of deeded owners is shrinking thanks to Outfield Marketing and the Festiva Adventure Club?



I imagine for those intervals where Southcape owners have converted to Festiva points, the deeded owner will be the trustee of the trust that holds all of the timeshare intervals of Festiva Adventure Club, and the trusteeswill vote those intervals.


----------



## FestivaRep

Sou13 said:


> Furthermore, as deeded owners convert to Festiva points, does Festiva pay Southcape $593.88 per converted owner?  If not, how can Southcape keep its deeded owners from unfair MF escalation and Special Assessments if the pool of deeded owners is shrinking thanks to Outfield Marketing and the Festiva Adventure Club?



When deeded owners convert to the FAC and the week then becomes part of the FAC inventory, the Club then pays the maintenance fee to the resort on that deeded week just like any other owner.  It does not become the responsibility of other deeded owners.


----------



## ecwinch

Festiva Rep:

In a couple of the posts in this thread, it mentions that lower m/f and protection from special assessments is one advantage of converting a deeded SC week into the Festiva Adventure Club.

Since the underlying Trust has to pay m/f and assessments for the units that are converted, on the surface the ability to shield FAC points owners from these increases would seem to be difficult. 

However, based on the fact that the underlying Trust owns units at multiple resorts, I can speculate how the Trust that might be able to do that. But could you expand upon that advantage of the FAC?


----------



## FestivaRep

ecwinch said:


> Since the underlying Trust has to pay m/f and assessments for the units that are converted, on the surface the ability to shield FAC points owners from these increases would seem to be difficult.
> 
> However, based on the fact that the underlying Trust owns units at multiple resorts, I can speculate how the Trust that might be able to do that. But could you expand upon that advantage of the FAC?



If there was a special assessment at a resort where FAC owns weeks, such as with Southcape this year, FAC is responsible for paying the assessment for all of the weeks owned by the Club. That cost would be shared by all 13,000+ FAC members, not just members who used to be owners at Southcape.


----------



## FestivaRep

*Converting to the FAC*

Some of you had questions about Southcape owners giving up their deeds to convert to the FAC versus joining the FAC without giving up your deed.

Southcape owners can convert to FAC without giving up their deed; however, because of the nature of our contract with Outfield, this cannot be done through Outfield. Owners would have to visit one of our other sales centers where Festiva actually has a presence, the closest of which is Portland, ME.


----------



## somerville

FestivaRep said:


> Some of you had questions about Southcape owners giving up their deeds to convert to the FAC versus joining the FAC without giving up your deed.
> 
> Southcape owners can convert to FAC without giving up their deed; however, because of the nature of our contract with Outfield, this cannot be done through Outfield. Owners would have to visit one of our other sales centers where Festiva actually has a presence, the closest of which is Portland, ME.


That is a very important detail to know.  If you want to keep your deed, you should NOT convert through Outfield.  You should also ask Festiva if you give up your right to vote when you convert to Festiva but retain your deed.  Under Equivest, Charter members who converted deeded weeks to points retained their deed, but gave Equivest the right to vote their deeded interest.  Retaining voting rights in your resort's HOA should be an important consideration.


----------



## ecwinch

FestivaRep said:


> If there was a special assessment at a resort where FAC owns weeks, such as with Southcape this year, FAC is responsible for paying the assessment for all of the weeks owned by the Club. That cost would be shared by all 13,000+ FAC members, not just members who used to be owners at Southcape.



Thanks for clearing it up - I thought that is how it might work. So in the current environment at SC where assessments are pending, the owner converting to FAC would not feel the full effect of special assessment, as it is spread over 13000+ FAC members. And the FAC would have a similar impact on m/f, if SC m/f are higher then the current m/f of the FAC system.

In essence, it is a zero sum game. Some FAC owners pay a higher m/f then their converted resort, some pay less then their converted resort. It depends on the m/f at their current resort vs current FAC m/f.  Today it is an advantage to the SC owner as their m/f are higher than FAC, and they have special assessments pending. 

The bottom line is that their is no inherent ability of FAC to provide lower m/f. It simply depends on the situation at your current resort.


----------



## Sou13

*How many votes does FAC have at Southcape?*



somerville said:


> I imagine for those intervals where Southcape owners have converted to Festiva points, the deeded owner will be the trustee of the trust that holds all of the timeshare intervals of Festiva Adventure Club, and the trusteeswill vote those intervals.



FestivaRep hasn't answered this one.  How many votes does FAC have in the affairs of Southcape Resort?

This is important info for Southcape owners.  Inviting other resorts into the "family" takes away the uniquesness and independence of Southcape owners.  And just as FestivaRep has informed us that all FAC club members share in the $400 special assessment at Southcape as well as all other special assessments in all the resorts in the ever-growing family, Outfield Marketing in engaging in deceptive sales practices (surprise! surprise!) by presenting lower MFs and no special assessments as an advantage of joining the Club.

At the same time that I appreciate the info being provided by FestivaRep here, I would also appreciate keeping the focus on Southcape Resort and Outfield Marketing.  I should have realized this when I launched the discussion.  (_I just noticed that the subject title has been changed.  However that happened, it was something I wanted to do!_)

Am I the only one willing to share what Outfield Marketing offered me?


----------



## FestivaRep

Sou13 said:


> FestivaRep hasn't answered this one.  How many votes does FAC have in the affairs of Southcape Resort?



The FAC has one vote for each week owned (just like any other owner). The number of weeks owned by the FAC depends directly on conversions of SC owners.


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> The FAC has one vote for each week owned (just like any other owner). The number of weeks owned by the FAC depends directly on conversions of SC owners.



FAC gets to vote the weeks that owners have converted to FAC plus the weeks and Equivest points that Festiva bought from the resort that were unsold, reposessed, or deeded back to the HOA. We also know that the number of Festiva Adventure Club votes at Southscape will increase every time an owner converts to FAC. 

What Somerville keeps asking is what is the number of votes currently owned, controlled, and voted by Festiva at Southscape.


----------



## somerville

ecwinch said:


> ...
> 
> The bottom line is that there is no inherent ability of FAC to provide lower m/f. It simply depends on the situation at your current resort.


You are correct.  There is no ability of FAC to provide lower maintenance fees.  Usually, the points clubs have higher fees.  In preparing a budget each year, the board of a timeshare resort must factor in a certain percentage of owners who will default on their maintenance fees.  Maintenance fees must be adjusted higher so the resort can collect enough fees to run the resort for the year.  An aggressive collection policy can help keep the number of defaults down.

In addition to the resorts at which FAC owns intervals including additional amounts to cover defaults, FAC must also increase its annual membership fees by an amount that covers its additional administrative costs and its defaulting members.  This year's FAC budget included a budget line item that factored in a nearly 10% default rate.  10% is very high, and makes me question their collection policy and the credit worthiness of the consumers that they are selling points to.

With points, it is almost like fees on fees.  In the long run, I do not see how any points system can be less expensive than owning a deeded week, unless the developer is subsidizing the points system fees.


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> Outfield Marketing in engaging in deceptive sales practices (surprise! surprise!) by presenting lower MFs and no special assessments as an advantage of joining the Club.



I would disagree with the characterization you present. Based on what FestivaRep presented, there would be no special assessments, as those are blended into the m/f.  And those amounts are diluted by spreading the cost over all FAC members. 

And as noted earlier, m/f's should be lower - at least in short term. But that might not be true in the long run. IMHO that is just sales spin, not deceptive sales practice.


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> I would disagree with the characterization you present. Based on what FestivaRep presented, there would be no special assessments, as those are blended into the m/f.  And those amounts are diluted by spreading the cost over all FAC members.
> 
> And as noted earlier, m/f's should be lower - at least in short term. But that might not be true in the long run. IMHO that is just sales spin, not deceptive sales practice.



If you own Festiva Points at a resort that doesn't have an assessment, you will be paying more than non FAC owners at your resort since you are subsidizing assessments at all of the resorts Festiva owns. So far I haven't been assessed at Blue Ridge Village, so FAC members at Blue Ridge Village are paying more to subsidize the assessments at Southscape and other Festiva resorts with current assessments than I am paying as an owner at Blue Ridge Village. I don't like any assessments, but if I am going to pay them I only want to pay assessments at the resort I own and use. If the socialist model where everyone shares fees sounds like a good deal, then you one would love subsidizing other things they don't own like AIG. You will get the same chance to vote and give input on Festiva's assessments and MF increases that you had on the AIG bailout, NONE!!


----------



## ecwinch

I understand that - I think that was the essence of my point a few posts back. But until recently this thread was about SC. For a current owner, FAC will:

 1. Protect them from special assessments. FAC apparently does not have special assessments, as they build them into their m/f. 

 2. At least right now at SC, the m/f is lower. 

For certain owners (i.e. someone on a fixed income), protection from an unexpected bill (i.e. special assessment), is a valuable benefit. While IMHO the benefit received is not a good value, for some it may have value.

So, at least for current SC owners, these selling points are true. So, not deceptive sales practices. Based on what you are saying, the same representation to a Blue Ridge owner would be a blatant deception.


----------



## Sou13

*Here's where eric got it wrong*



ecwinch said:


> I understand that - I think that was the essence of my point a few posts back. But until recently this thread was about SC. For a current owner, FAC will:
> 
> 1. Protect them from special assessments. FAC apparently does not have special assessments, as they build them into their m/f.
> 
> 2. At least right now at SC, the m/f is lower.
> 
> For certain owners (i.e. someone on a fixed income), protection from an unexpected bill (i.e. special assessment), is a valuable benefit. While IMHO the benefit received is not a good value, for some it may have value.
> 
> So, at least for current SC owners, these selling points are true. So, not deceptive sales practices. Based on what you are saying, the same representation to a Blue Ridge owner would be a blatant deception.



Here's where you haven't got it right.  Greg Hughes said my MF for 3500 points would be lower than the $593.88 I owed Southcape as a deeded interval owner for 2009.  But in Dec. Festiva raised the MF for 3500 points to $602, which is *HIGHER* than the MF for *ALL* deeded Southcape owners.

Furthermore, the MF for FAC members is based on the # of points, which is why I'm asking how many points Outfield Marketing is offering and what is the MF for the fixed red weeks at Southcape?

So we all had to get socked with a $400 "Special Assessment" because by my calculations there are only 1800 or 1600 Southcape deeded owners (Cliff Hagberg has yet to clarify that one) paying their maintenance fees!  I've posted the 2009 budget on the "Southcape Resort" forum (it's a mess because I couldn't figure out how to make a column on TUG) and divided it by $543.88 and $593.88.

We concerned Southcape deeded owners have so many questions they can't all be answered at the annual meeting May 16th, but the more info that comes to light the worse it gets.

Why isn't Outfield Marketing paying Southcape Resort rent for the unit it's occupying for the purpose of "convincing" deeded owners to convert to Festiva points?


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> I. For a current owner, FAC will:
> 
> 1. Protect them from special assessments. FAC apparently does not have special assessments, as they build them into their m/f.



Festiva assesses at every resort they take over as soon as they can, and they raise MF's because they can never seem to be able to operate a resort on the budget that the previous owner's made ends meet with. Just ask owners at The Atrium, Church Street Inn,and Southscape to name a few. At Blue Ridge Village they already have a model unit renovated with the mandatory granite counter tops and flat screen TV's to show potential FAC buyers what the resort will look like after they remodel it. Remodelling equals assessments. Southscape FAC members and all other FAC members will be paying increased annual fees very soon so that Festiva can remodel Blue Ridge Village to help them sell their points.

FAC doesn't have special assessments? You have got to be kidding me. Festiva assesses more than any resort chain I know of. Festiva is assessing at virtually every resort they own, and they are dividing the assessment costs among all FAC members at all resorts by increasing the annual dues. 

If Festive has a special assessment at any FAC resort, FAC member's annual dues will increase to cover the special assessments. Obviously FAC members do pay for special assessments since their dues increase everytime Festiva assesses or increases MF's at any of their resorts. When Festiva charges a resort's owners and club members special assessments, FAC (which is Festiva by the way) pays the cost of those assessments. Saying that FAC doesn't have special assessments because the assessments are levied on paper by Festiva and not specifically by FAC is not a misrepresentation, it is a downright lie. 

If your annual dues go up every time there is an assessment at any Festiva resort, how could you possibly believe that you aren't paying for it? That's like saying you aren't paying for the AIG bailout because you aren't getting a bill from the government telling you how much you owe to pay for your fair share of the AIG bailout. Your taxes will go up in the future and you and every other American will be paying for it no matter what spin you hear or read! When Blue Ridge Village has it's soon to come special assessment, all FAC members will have a dues increase so they can pay their fair share of that special assessment too.


----------



## tombo

Sou13 said:


> We concerned Southcape deeded owners have so many questions they can't all be answered at the annual meeting May 16th, but the more info that comes to light the worse it gets.
> 
> Why isn't Outfield Marketing paying Southcape Resort rent for the unit it's occupying for the purpose of "convincing" deeded owners to convert to Festiva points?



It might get even worse as you learn more. Festiva feels that they own all common areas that they think came with their purchase of the Blue Ridge Village resort. According to Festiva they own the pool, lake, tennis courts, club house, and all undeveloped land. Phase one which is not controlled by Festiva has hired a lawyer (from what I have been told) to try and regain control of our common areas.

Festiva came in and set up sales offices in the club house and informed everyone that they owned it and can do with it as they wish. They also had plans to build many more units on undeveloped land at the resort (I doubt that they will do that now in this economy) and they told the board that the new units will all have access to our pool, tennis courts, and lake because we don't own them, Festiva does. They have also taken a unit out of use and renovated it for sales tours at Blue Ridge Village. I am not sure if it has been resolved yet or not, and if it has been resolved  I don't know which way it went. I had heard that they were going to give us our common areas in exchange for some other concessions, but I haven't heard if that was a factual situation and if it is what the final outcome was.

So Southscape might be suprised to find out that Festiva might own the unit they are using for sales. They might also own your pool, your clubhouse, and everything at the resort other than the actual timeshare units themselves. Check with your board and keep your fingers crossed that you still own the common areas and not Festiva.


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, tombo!*

I don't have time to post more than a quick "Thank you, tombo!" here.  It looks as though Southcape is about 800 intervals short when it comes to collecting maintenance fees.  Go to the  "Southcape Resort" ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page) discussion and read what Russ45 learned from NEVS.


----------



## somerville

ecwinch said:


> I understand that - I think that was the essence of my point a few posts back. But until recently this thread was about SC. For a current owner, FAC will:
> 
> 1. Protect them from special assessments. FAC apparently does not have special assessments, as they build them into their m/f.
> 
> 2. At least right now at SC, the m/f is lower.
> 
> For certain owners (i.e. someone on a fixed income), protection from an unexpected bill (i.e. special assessment), is a valuable benefit. While IMHO the benefit received is not a good value, for some it may have value.
> 
> So, at least for current SC owners, these selling points are true. So, not deceptive sales practices. Based on what you are saying, the same representation to a Blue Ridge owner would be a blatant deception.


I am not sure how someone on a fixed income benefits from being in FAC.  The $3,100 cost to convert would pay for a lot of special assessments, plus where is the person on a fixed income going to come up with this payment in the first place.?


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> Festiva is assessing at virtually every resort they own, and they are dividing the assessment costs among all FAC members at all resorts by increasing the annual dues.
> 
> If Festive has a special assessment at any FAC resort, FAC member's annual dues will increase to cover the special assessments.
> 
> Saying that FAC doesn't have special assessments is not a misrepresentation, it is a downright lie.



Please reread my posts. You seem to be restating points I have made early, that it is a zero-sum game. 

No, FAC does not have special assessments per se. As you noted above, and as I said in my post, they are blended into the annual dues. The net affect that you will not see a huge spike in your annual costs, unless all the resorts had a special assessment at the same time.

And re-read what you wrote above. You are saying the same thing.

It is not a model for everyone. But if you wanted a timeshare program that would avoid the "musical chairs" nature of a special assessment, it might be for you. The same is true of most true points systems.


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Please reread my posts. You seem to be restating points I have made early, that it is a zero-sum game.
> 
> No, FAC does not have special assessments per se. As you noted above, and as I said in my post, they are blended into the annual dues. The net affect that you will not see a huge spike in your annual costs, unless all the resorts had a special assessment at the same time.
> 
> And re-read what you wrote above. You are saying the same thing.
> 
> It is not a model for everyone. But if you wanted a timeshare program that would avoid the "musical chairs" nature of a special assessment, it might be for you. The same is true of most true points systems.



Yes, you are in a way saying the same thing, but you are also saying that Outlaw Marketing is making true statements and not misrepresenting when they say that FAC will save the owner money since their members don't have to pay special assessments.  The FAC members not only have to pay for their portion of the special assessments at their resort, they have to pay for their portion of special assessments at other Festiva resorts, and they will never own at any resort. The total they pay over a 4 or 5 year period will be higher than the owner wo just has to pay the assessment once in some cases.

FAC members will pay more money than owners at a single Festiva resort if the resort they own at assesses $400, and the other Festiva resorts assess $500 to $600 over a 4-5 year period. The owner will pay $400 total. The FAC member pays his share of the $400 at his resort plus his share of the $500 to $600 at the other resorts spread over 4-5 years. 

If the owner at a resort has no special assessments then he pays nothing to cover assessments at other resorts. No matter whether the home resort that the FAC member's points are based in has assessments or not, the FAC member will constantly be paying assessments from other Festiva resorts.

Outlaw marketing will not explain these undisputable facts and are totally misrepresenting IMO.


----------



## wmauryd

*Outfield Marketing and Southcape Board*

I'm directing this to the Festiva Rep:

Is the president of Outfield Marketing, or are others connected with Outfield Marketing, currently serving on Southcape Resort's Board of Trustees?


----------



## wmauryd

*meal vouchers for timeshare tours*

It's not directly related to Southcape but it's interesting to read about the $80k in unpaid vouchers, awarded by a Cape Cod timeshare marketing company, today on http://www.capecodonline.com/

How are sales going at Southcape anyone? Are promotional meal vouchers being awarded for tours?


----------



## FestivaRep

wmauryd said:


> I'm directing this to the Festiva Rep:
> 
> Is the president of Outfield Marketing, or are others connected with Outfield Marketing, currently serving on Southcape Resort's Board of Trustees?



This is one I cannot answer since we are not involved in the management of Southcape.  I would recommend you go directly to the source and contact the general manager of SC for questions about the makeup of the board.


----------



## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> FAC members will pay more money than owners at a single Festiva resort if the resort they own at assesses $400, and the other Festiva resorts assess $500 to $600 over a 4-5 year period. The owner will pay $400 total. The FAC member pays his share of the $400 at his resort plus his share of the $500 to $600 at the other resorts spread over 4-5 years.



I think there might be some confusion over the assessments. This is purely an example, I'm not basing it on any current resort's fees, assessments, or number of weeks owned. Just off the top of my head on a Monday morning - Let's say resort X has a special assessment of $200 per unit interval. If there are 20 unit intervals at this resort that are owned by the Adventure Club, then the FAC owes $4,000 to that resort for the assessment. There are currently over 13,000 (that's a real number) members in the Adventure Club, so they would each pay approximately $0.31 for that assessment, which would be built into their maintenance fee invoice for that year.  The same would stand for unsold weeks owned by the adventure club at that resort, for which Festiva would be responsible for that share of the cost. Since FAC members do not own at a single resort, they will never pay a full assessment for one unit interval (unless they have a deeded week in addition to their FAC membership, but that's a different scenario).  And the more FAC members there are, the more the costs are spread among the club and the less each member pays per assessment.


----------



## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> If you own Festiva Points at a resort that doesn't have an assessment, you will be paying more than non FAC owners at your resort since you are subsidizing assessments at all of the resorts Festiva owns. So far I haven't been assessed at Blue Ridge Village, so FAC members at Blue Ridge Village are paying more to subsidize the assessments at Southscape and other Festiva resorts with current assessments than I am paying as an owner at Blue Ridge Village.



I think there is a clear misunderstanding here: FAC members do not own points *at a particular resort*.  An FAC member who purchased at BRV would pay the same as an FAC member who purchased the same amount of points in Charleston, regardless of assessments at either/any resort for that year.


----------



## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> FAC gets to vote the weeks that owners have converted to FAC plus the weeks and Equivest points that Festiva bought from the resort that were unsold, reposessed, or deeded back to the HOA. We also know that the number of Festiva Adventure Club votes at Southscape will increase every time an owner converts to FAC.



The only weeks at Southcape owned by Festiva are from those owners who have converted to the FAC. *Festiva did not purchase any unsold, repossessed or deeded back weeks from Southcape, and Southcape was never part of the Equivest points system.* So we only have as many votes as those who convert, and that number changes daily.


----------



## Carolinian

somerville said:


> I am not sure how someone on a fixed income benefits from being in FAC.  The $3,100 cost to convert would pay for a lot of special assessments, plus where is the person on a fixed income going to come up with this payment in the first place.?



Selling points is very similar to selling snake oil in the old west.  It is nothing but a con game.  If someone really wanted this snake oil, er, points, they could pick them up for peanuts on eBay.

If my resort had someone come in and try to con people into a points conversion, I would ask the HOA to send out an alert, or at least request that I be allowed to write an item about how it is a con for the resort newsletter.


----------



## timeos2

*Give me my deeded ownership - and voting rights - everytime*



tombo said:


> FAC members will pay more money than owners at a single Festiva resort if the resort they own at assesses $400, and the other Festiva resorts assess $500 to $600 over a 4-5 year period. The owner will pay $400 total. The FAC member pays his share of the $400 at his resort plus his share of the $500 to $600 at the other resorts spread over 4-5 years.
> 
> If the owner at a resort has no special assessments then he pays nothing to cover assessments at other resorts. No matter whether the home resort that the FAC member's points are based in has assessments or not, the FAC member will constantly be paying assessments from other Festiva resorts.
> 
> Outlaw marketing will not explain these undisputable facts and are totally misrepresenting IMO.



And don't forget the management fee (overhead) that all operators of these clubs / trusts charge to operate the club / trust. That is usually a percentage so the higher the overall fees the more they make. I find it hard to believe that in the long run a club / trust can be cheaper than owning a deeded week at a resort in the system with all these actual and potential fees being charged to the club / trust members. It appears that in a given year or two the club fee may be less than the annual fee at a specific resort but if you look at a 5-10 year period the club / trust fees will almost always be higher - maybe significantly higher - and without the owner input (voting rights and BOD representation) that owning at a deeded resort offers. It seems to be a model that favors the devloper /operator not the owner / club member.


----------



## Sou13

*Festiva meets with Equivest member*

Here is some important info about Festiva Vacation Club:

"Response from Festiva"

And here is some important info about the members of Southcape's Board of Trustees:

Tom Franks

Steve Lamantia


----------



## ecwinch

timeos2 said:


> I find it hard to believe that in the long run a club / trust can be cheaper than owning a deeded week at a resort in the system with all these actual and potential fees being charged to the club / trust members.



I agree, and I do not think that has been said here. But most people do not think about the long run. Just consider all the products that are sold on the basis of "how much can you afford to spend per month".

This timeshare model simply affords some protection against unexpected spikes in your m/f.  As you noted, given the extra layer of fees and overhead, it certainly will cost you more over the long run.


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> I think there might be some confusion over the assessments. This is purely an example, I'm not basing it on any current resort's fees, assessments, or number of weeks owned. Just off the top of my head on a Monday morning - Let's say resort X has a special assessment of $200 per unit interval. If there are 20 unit intervals at this resort that are owned by the Adventure Club, then the FAC owes $4,000 to that resort for the assessment. There are currently over 13,000 (that's a real number) members in the Adventure Club, so they would each pay approximately $0.31 for that assessment, which would be built into their maintenance fee invoice for that year.  The same would stand for unsold weeks owned by the adventure club at that resort, for which Festiva would be responsible for that share of the cost. Since FAC members do not own at a single resort, they will never pay a full assessment for one unit interval (unless they have a deeded week in addition to their FAC membership, but that's a different scenario).  And the more FAC members there are, the more the costs are spread among the club and the less each member pays per assessment.



On the other hand if Festiva assesses at 3 or 4 of their other resorts, but not at resort X, then the owner at resort x will pay less. Also an owner at resort x won't have to pay the Mgt fee that I assume Festiva charges it's members to operate the Club. 

IMO the only way it would be cheaper to be a FAC member in the long run is if Festiva owned a large amount of inventory and was paying a large percentage of the upkeep at their resorts. I assume that Festiva will not be paying out more in expenses than they are taking in from club members, so factoring in sales profits and expenses, somewhere somehow the members will have to pay enough to keep Festiva in the black.

It could work out either way as far as being cheaper or more expensive in any given year in the Festiva model, but in the long run my bet is that it will be cheaper to be an owner since you won't have the annual Festiva club fees to pay in addition to the expenses required to keep the resorts operating. However since Festiva has all control of expenses and upgrades at the resorts (since they don't give members a vote), I don't feel that the emphasis at the resorts will ever be on saving FAC members or owners money. The emphasis will always be on sales and profitability for Festiva raising costs for both FAC members and owners to levels higher than could be acheived with an owner dedicated board elected by a vote of the owners. Please note the double digit MF increases at virtually every resort Festiva has taken over if one has doubts (The Atrium, Church Street Inn,etc, etc, etc).


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> I think there is a clear misunderstanding here: FAC members do not own points *at a particular resort*.  An FAC member who purchased at BRV would pay the same as an FAC member who purchased the same amount of points in Charleston, regardless of assessments at either/any resort for that year.



 I forgot that the members don't own anything anywhere, so there is no week or unit number associated with Festiva membership. Because there are no controls the Club can sell as many points as they want. I am sure that there is a plan in place to prevent that from happening. Festiva's financial reports and annual resort reports disclose very little if any information to FAC members and often are not sent at all because as Festiva is so proud to say they are not required to disclose since the members are not owners. I would doubt that Festiva is required to send a list of how many points are currently owned at each resort and a total number of points there are in the whole organization.

With points based on underlying deeds where units/weeks are listed, the resorts can only sell the points equal to 50 or 51 weeks per unit. Festiva could sell enough points that there are the equivalent of 100 owners per unit, and no one would ever know for sure (I know just trust Festiva to not oversell and operate within their internal guidelines). Since every year some people won't use their points, and some will not pay their dues, the points could be oversold with no one the wiser. 

Points being sold by Festiva with no external (or members) oversight requires trust that the right thing will be done and points won't be oversold. That is another potential disadvantage for owners, and a huge advantage for Festiva. Festiva can keep a full number of dues paying members by coninuing to sell points while many points members are in default or being reposessed. Festiva won't have to wait until they actually get the points back, they can constantly sell to cover potential deed backs and foreclosures. If the resort was selling deeded weeks, they couldn't sell a week until the week was actually legally owned by the resort. There could end up being be a lot more points in existence than there are available weeks, but it will never be know for sure since many members won't be able to vacation on points they still own because their accounts are in arrears.

You buy into the club, you own nothing, you are assessed and required to pay MF's for 30 or 40 years, and you don't get a vote on anything being done at any resort that Festiva owns. The number of points required to stay at newly acqired resorts can be raised to where one would have to buy additional points to be able to vacation there. Festiva could file bankrptcy and your points contract would be worthless. From what I am seeing they apparently aren't worth anything now since the last 3 Festiva resort points ads on e-bay did not receive a sinlge bid ( ads# 250387307837,# 350177063403, and # 220373983605  ) and the current bid for 1500 points at peppertree is at $1 with 4 hours to go (# 220379214962 ). Please feel free to look at those recent auctions to decide for yourself what points at Festiva resorts are worth.

 I am not a fan of any Points plans which are not based on underlying ownership, even Disney (although comparing Festiva to DVC is like comparing potted meat to Filet mignon IMO).


----------



## bnoble

> I find it hard to believe that in the long run a club / trust can be cheaper than owning a deeded week at a resort in the system with all these actual and potential fees being charged to the club / trust members.


Clearly, _on avearge,_ it's not.  The additional layer of management _has to_ impose additional costs.  The question is, though, do the extra benefits outweigh the extra average costs.  For some systems/situations, it might.

For example, Wyndham's FairShare Plus (or, Club Wyndham Plus, or whatever they are calling it today) imposes additional fees on top of your deeded week.  Yet, as the owner of a converted fixed week, I find the additional benefits of being in FSP to be more than repaid by the additional costs---and that's despite all the nuisance fees, etc. that have been charged.

On the other hand, looking at Festiva's portfolio of resorts, and the point assignments for both the weeks I own and those at the few resorts I might like to visit, I'd much rather keep my fixed week and pay an exchange fee to RCI or II than convert to Festiva points.  Because the week is high-demand in both third-party exchanges, it trades much better than it would in Festiva's system.

So, as with most things in timeshare, the answer is: "It depends."


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> The only weeks at Southcape owned by Festiva are from those owners who have converted to the FAC. *Festiva did not purchase any unsold, repossessed or deeded back weeks from Southcape, and Southcape was never part of the Equivest points system.* So we only have as many votes as those who convert, and that number changes daily.



Who gets the repossessed and deeded back weeks? If not Festiva do they go to Outfield? If so for what price? Do owners have an opportunity to purchase those weeks or are they automatically Outfield's to buy?


Since at least one member of Southscape's board is an employee of Outfield Marketing (Steve Lamantia), and another was a Blugreen exec who might or might not be associated with Festiva or Outfield Mktg., Festiva apparently has enough votes to get their people on the board.  Where did those votes come from? Why is a big time ex Bluegreen executive wasting his time on the board of a small non Blugreen resort? Could it be that he has a business interest in Outfield, Festiva, or both? If there is not an ulterior motive I would be surprised  but only time will tell. Possibly he might be legally obligated to disclose any affiliations he has with Outfield or Festiva since he is serving on the board. It would be a good thing for owners to know which board members running for office or currently in office have ties with Festiva or Outfield and would be worth checking into.

Why would owners at any resort allow a developer's representative or a Mktg company's employee to be on the board and make decisions about their resort?  The reason why is because the owners who got talked into swapping their weeks for points gave up their ownership and their rights to vote on the current and future operations and upgrades at the resort. Not a good move IMO.


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## somerville

Sou13 said:


> Here is some important info about Festiva Vacation Club:
> 
> "Response from Festiva"
> 
> And here is some important info about the members of Southcape's Board of Trustees:
> 
> Tom Franks
> 
> Steve Lamantia


I don't believe that anyone who is not a member of the Yahoo Equivest Group can read the posting that your link takes them to.  I have obtained permission from the author to post the notes of his meeting with Festiva on TUG.  However, if someone tells me the link works for non-members of the group, I will not post the report on TUG.

I can tell you that the report indicates that there are between five and six thousand Equivest Vacation and Travel Club members and about one third are in default of their maintenance payments.  That is a staggering number.


----------



## tombo

somerville said:


> I can tell you that the report indicates that there are between five and six thousand Equivest Vacation and Travel Club members and about one third are in default of their maintenance payments.  That is a staggering number.



When they default do they automatically become Festiva Points? If so Festiva will control more votes and the remaining owners will have less say in their resorts. Of course if Festiva does get all of those defaults and has to pay all of those MF's, they might go broke.  Conversely Festiva might break the owners backs by constantly increasing the MF's at the resorts to cover ever increasing expenses with less and less owners and few new FAC members to divide the costs between.


----------



## Carolinian

How much do these Festiva pirates own of the resort weeks?  Often, given the turnout of real owners, a small percentage may swing the vote for the BOD.  What you need to do is form a ''Concerned Owners'' committee and solicit proxies for a pro-member committee and put the Festiva pirates off your board.  Concerned Owners committees kicked developer management out of four resorts I am familiar with on the NC Outer Banks, and owners did the same to Fairfield in the USVI.  It just takes organizing.


----------



## tombo

Carolinian said:


> How much do these Festiva pirates own of the resort weeks?  Often, given the turnout of real owners, a small percentage may swing the vote for the BOD.  What you need to do is form a ''Concerned Owners'' committee and solicit proxies for a pro-member committee and put the Festiva pirates off your board.  Concerned Owners committees kicked developer management out of four resorts I am familiar with on the NC Outer Banks, and owners did the same to Fairfield in the USVI.  It just takes organizing.



If the resort won't allow flyers to be placed in the resort mailings, and they won't give you a list of names and addresses of owners because they say it would violate privacy laws, then how can a group get in touch with the majority of owners. We would love some advice on how to proceed contacting owners to form a Concerned Owner's group. Other than the annual meeting where ony a small percentage of the owners will attend, and a couple of web sites like TUG and Yahoo, gaining access to the owners is impossible.


----------



## Sou13

*Originally Posted by wmauryd*



wmauryd said:


> It's not directly related to Southcape but it's interesting to read about the $80k in unpaid vouchers, awarded by a Cape Cod timeshare marketing company, today on http://www.capecodonline.com/
> 
> How are sales going at Southcape anyone? Are promotional meal vouchers being awarded for tours?



Here's the article:



> Promotional coupons burn businesses
> By PATRICK CASSIDY
> Published: March 21, 2009
> DENNISPORT - For years, Cape Cod Holiday Promotions worked just like similar marketing strategies. Visitors who agreed to tour timeshare properties received coupons for restaurants and other tourist-friendly businesses. The marketing group reimbursed participating businesses for the value of the coupons used by customers.
> 
> Businesses got new customers. Customers got discounted meals or some other service, and the timeshare business made money from the people who purchased a vacation getaway. Everybody made out.
> 
> But not this year.
> 
> At least a dozen businesses who honored the coupons are owed approximately $80,000 and no one can tell them when they will be reimbursed.
> 
> One business owner is considering legal action, while others - leery of spending money in small claims court to chase down a few thousand dollars - have either stopped honoring the vouchers or are simply keeping their fingers crossed that they'll eventually get what they're owed.
> 
> Devitt Adams, a spokesman for a group of timeshare owners at Breakers Resort in Dennisport, acknowledged that he and his partners owe money to businesses who accepted the vouchers.
> 
> Adams, also the point person for the Cape Cod Holiday Promotions program, said a multimillion dollar decline in sales has made it difficult for them to reimburse some of the participating businesses.
> 
> Two years ago, Adams and his partners, who represent the various owners of 300 timeshare units in Breakers and Edgewater Resort, generated $21 million in sales, compared to $3 million last year, he said.
> 
> "We had a catastrophic year for business," he said. It is not clear where the $3 million that was taken in went and attempts to contact Adams yesterday for follow-up questions were unsuccessful.
> 
> About 40 businesses have participated over the dozen or so years the promotion has run, Adams said Tuesday. In 2007 the promotion paid out $550,000 to Cape merchants, he said.
> 
> "For many years it worked very, very well and everyone was happy," Adams said, adding that he was "personally committed to paying all of these people."
> 
> Adams estimated that $210,000 had been distributed to businesses for last year's certificates. An additional $80,000 remains unpaid, he said.
> 
> Goodwill, however, does little to make up for the missing money, affected business owners said.
> 
> "It makes you not want to participate with these people when you get burned," Felis Barreiro, owner of Alberto's Ristorante in Hyannis, said as he flipped through about $4,000 worth of the vouchers. It was especially difficult to go unpaid during the current economic tailspin, Barreiro said.
> 
> "I've got to make my payroll at the end of the week just like everyone else," Barreiro said. Taking the issue to court may not be worth it once attorney fees and other expenses are accounted for, he said.
> 
> Business owners in Barnstable, Dennis and Yarmouth who spoke to the Times reported more than $30,000 in unpaid certificates. The Times attempted to contact other businesses involved but they were either closed for the season or shut down for good.
> 
> A handful of business owners said they did not encounter many customers using the certificates. Some others said Adams paid them what they were owed.
> 
> The scope of the problem became apparent when Matt Muller, assistant manager at Cape Cod Central Railroad, realized his company was owed about $1,000 in $25 vouchers it had honored. Muller, who is also a bookkeeper, said he could not reach Adams no matter how hard he tried. When he contacted other businesses he heard the same story.
> 
> "That's probably what irks me the most," Muller said about the lack of communication.
> 
> Muller also said it had been hard to get money back for the vouchers even before last year, but not impossible.
> 
> "If there's a good explanation I'd love to hear it but I can't even get a hold of Mr. Adams," he said.
> 
> Adams said the slower-than-normal sales meant he had to shut down his Chase Avenue office and admitted he was difficult to reach. "There's been nobody here."
> 
> Despite the difficult year, the companies Adams works with are not filing for bankruptcy and are going to continue to operate, he said.
> 
> In the past five years, there have been complaints about Breakers Resort and Edgewater filed with the local Consumer Assistance Council. But Executive Director Paul Schraeder said he could not discuss the details of the complaints because they are confidential.
> 
> The state Attorney General's Office would not confirm or deny whether there is an investigation into Cape Cod Holidays Promotions, a spokesman said.


----------



## Carolinian

tombo said:


> If the resort won't allow flyers to be placed in the resort mailings, and they won't give you a list of names and addresses of owners because they say it would violate privacy laws, then how can a group get in touch with the majority of owners. We would love some advice on how to proceed contacting owners to form a Concerned Owner's group. Other than the annual meeting where ony a small percentage of the owners will attend, and a couple of web sites like TUG and Yahoo, gaining access to the owners is impossible.



The privacy laws argument is bunk, at least in the US.  The applicable laws are the corporate laws.  Every t/s HOA I am aware of in the US is organized as a non-profit corporation.  Non-profit corporation law requires them to give you a list of names and addresses, but those cannot be passed on to others outside the organization, used for commercial purposes, etc. They can only be used to communicate with members on issues relative to the corporation (HOA). There is also usually a time frame during which they have to give them to you, which is a certain period preceding the annual meeting.  Any other time they can refuse.  You need to check the state non-profit corporation law of the state where the timeshare is located to learn the specific time frames during which you are entitled to the list.  State non-profit corporation law also allows you to inspect and copy many corporate records of the HOA, and often a backdoor way to get the list at other times is inspect and copy the membership list while you are looking at minutes of directors meetings, monthly financials, etc.  I would look up the statute number and specifically ask for the list according to that statute number.  Talk to the state agency that regulates corporations (often the Secretary of State) and they can probably point you right to the applicable laws.  Another place that can be very helpful is the state agency that regulates timeshare, usually the Real Estate Commission.  If you get any flack from management, that is also where you should file a complaint.

A group was formed for just this purpose at Dunes South some years ago.  After they had gone all the way to the state Supreme Court some years before that to kick out developer management, they had fallen under the thumb of a local management company which had gotten control of their board and was generally making a mess of things.  The initial group was only three or four people, but they made a proper demand for the membership list, which management tried to blow off but one of them who was a lawyer went straight to the HOA lawyer and he straighten management out, which provided the list.  That small group kicked in funds and mailed the whole membership twice.  They send a proxy form and also asked help to defray expenese.  They received enought contributions to pay for the first mailing and also a second.  With their proxies, they defeated and replaced one of the two incumbents who were up for board positions that year, which then built a fire under management for a while to do things right.  When management got back to its old ways, the full board, including those who positions had originally come courtesy of management, knew that they had a membership that was watching, so they fired the management company.

You might also want to set up a members only discussion board online for your concerned owners.  I don't know if TUG provides those, but I think TS4MS probably would.


----------



## Carolinian

You also should get a copy of the HOA bylaws and look at provisions for election of directors and removal of directors.  IMHO there is a very good argument that anyone connected to a management firm or sales firm has a conflict of interest in serving on the board.  That is particularly true since the board hires and fires the management company and evaluates its performance.

Are there any independent directors currently on the board?  Perhaps you can find some allies there.

Another area to look for conflict of interest is the split between the HOA and the points operation and its sales company on points conversions proceeds.  You can probably find some data on what percentage is customary in the industry for the HOA to receive.  If it is less than that, then there is a sweatheart deal and strong evidence of improper actions by the current board.  Unless the HOA receives a substantial amount, it would be foolish for the HOA to participate in such a scheme.  If the HOA does receive a substantial amount, then I guess it is just a business decision that could be made either way.  However, there should be a condition that any voting rights obtained by conversions would be exercised by the members not by a points operation.  Otherwise you lose the independence of your board.


----------



## Carolinian

somerville said:


> That is not quite true.  If your points are what Equivest calls New points (not converted from a deeded week, which you still own (Charter membership)), then the intervals are held by the trust, which Festiva already controls.  Even with the Charter membership, Equivest, and hence Festiva, exercises a right to vote those intervals.  One former Equivest/Pettertree resort, Outer Banks Beach Club, took Equivest to court and obtained a ruling that the Charters members/owners have the right to vote, not Equivest.  That ruling occurred when Wyndham/Fairfield owned Equivest.



Outer Banks Beach Club (I and II)'s HOA board also kicked out Fairfield/Wyndham as management and brought in an independent management firm from South Carolina, which has been managing the resorts for several years.  Fairfield was left with only the old sales office across the street.  When they decided to reopen it to try to sell Fairfield points, the Beach Club refused to let them take t/s tours on their property and Fairfield had to pay the HOA at Seascape to take tours there, which was several miles away, instead.  In a few months, Fairfield closed and sold the old sales office.

I found Festiva's press release when they bought the Equivest/Peppertree points club dishonest, in that they claimed they had ''bought'' Outer Banks Beach Club I and II, which of course they did not.  They only bought a small percentage of weeks that were in the points club. at those resorts.  Most weeks there are individually owned fixed weeks.


----------



## tombo

I guess my posting of the auction for 1500 Festiva points at Peppertree Ocean Club on this forum really drove the price and number of bids way up. Unlike the other recent Festiva resort auctions which ended with zero bids, the auction I posted on this thread ended with 3 bids and a selling price of $1.25 (auction #220379214962). This should answer any questions concerning the value of points at Festiva resorts.


----------



## tombo

Carolinian, thanks for the advice. I know it can help some of the members here wondering about Southscape and many other Festiva resorts. If a letter could be mailed to the owners explaining the situation, few if any would swap to FAC, and very few would vote for the Festiva and outfield  associates to get on the board or be re-elected to the board.


----------



## ecwinch

Carolinian said:


> Non-profit corporation law requires them to give you a list of names and addresses, but those cannot be passed on to others outside the organization, used for commercial purposes, etc.



Carolinian,

A lot of good pointers.  When I first read your reply, the point above seemed a little open-ended. However in checking the tentative ruling in the WorldMark owners case to obtain the mailing list, you are dead on.

Tombo - 

I am not a lawyer, but have stayed at a number of Holiday Inns. It would appear that this section of the NJ Statue pertaining to non-profit corporations is the one that you need to reference in your request.

_15A:5-24.  Books and records;  right of inspection
    a.  Each corporation shall keep books and records of account and minutes of  the proceedings of its members and board and executive committee, if any. Unless otherwise provided in the bylaws, the books, records and minutes may be kept outside this State.  The corporation shall make available for inspection at its registered office, in this State, or at its principal office if it is in  this State, records containing the names and addresses of all members, the number, class and series of memberships held by each and the dates when they respectively became members of record thereof, within 10 days after demand by a  member entitled to inspect them, as defined in subsection c. of this section.   The foregoing books, minutes or records may be in written form or in any other  form capable of being converted into written form within a reasonable time.  A  corporation shall convert into written form without charge any records not in  that form, upon the written request of any person entitled to inspect them.

 b.  Upon the written request of any member, the corporation shall mail to that member its balance sheet as at the end of the preceding fiscal year, and its statement of income and expenses for that fiscal year.

    c.  Any person who shall have been a member of record of a corporation for at least 6 months immediately preceding that person's demand, or any person holding, or so authorized in writing by the members holding, at least 5% of the  memberships of any class or series, upon at least 5 days' written demand, shall  have the right for any proper purpose to examine in person or by agent or  attorney, during usual business hours, its minutes of the proceedings of its  members and record of members and to make extracts therefrom, at the places  where the same are kept pursuant to subsection a. of this section._

Here is the link to the complete statues: LINK.


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## tombo

That will help those in New Jersey and is appreciated. 

My resort is in North Carolina where Festiva is based. Have you stayed at any Holiday Inns in North Carolina lately?


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## FestivaRep

Carolinian said:


> I found Festiva's press release when they bought the Equivest/Peppertree points club dishonest, in that they claimed they had ''bought'' Outer Banks Beach Club I and II, which of course they did not.  They only bought a small percentage of weeks that were in the points club. at those resorts.  Most weeks there are individually owned fixed weeks.



Actually the press release did not say anything about us 'buying' OBX I/II, it just said that a resort in St. Augustine was 'involved in the acquisition' which it was. From the press release, which can be found in the Press Room on our website:

_Resorts involved in the acquisition and previously owned by Peppertree Resorts are located in Wisconsin Dells, Wis., Branson, Mo., Gatlinburg, Tenn., Myrtle Beach, S.C., and St. Augustine, Fla.  Four North Carolina resort locations include Outer Banks, Atlantic Beach, Banner Elk and Maggie Valley.  The properties in Wisconsin Dells, Banner Elk and Atlantic Beach also include undeveloped land.  _


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> That will help those in New Jersey and is appreciated.
> 
> My resort is in North Carolina where Festiva is based. Have you stayed at any Holiday Inns in North Carolina lately?



Not sure why I thought we were talking about a resort in Atlantic City, NJ. Here is the info for North Carolina: 

_55A‑16‑02.  Inspection of records by members.

(a)       A member is entitled to inspect and copy, at a reasonable time and location specified by the corporation, any of the records of the corporation described in G.S. 55A‑16‑01(e) if the member gives the corporation written notice of his demand at least five business days before the date on which the member wishes to inspect and copy.

(b)       A member is entitled to inspect and copy, at a reasonable time and reasonable location specified by the corporation, any of the following records of the corporation if the member meets the requirements of subsection (c) of this section and gives the corporation written notice of his demand at least five business days before the date on which the member wishes to inspect and copy:

(1)       Excerpts from any records required to be maintained under G.S. 55A‑16‑01(a), to the extent not subject to inspection under G.S. 55A‑16‑02(a);

(2)       Accounting records of the corporation; and

(3)       Subject to G.S. 55A‑16‑05, the membership list.

(c)       A member may inspect and copy the records identified in subsection (b) of this section only if:

(1)       The member's demand is made in good faith and for a proper purpose;

(2)       The member describes with reasonable particularity the purpose and the records the member desires to inspect; and

(3)       The records are directly connected with this purpose.

(d)       This section does not affect:

(1)       The right of a member to inspect records under G.S. 55A‑7‑20 or, if the member is in litigation with the corporation, to inspect the records to the same extent as any other litigant; or

(2)       The power of a court, independently of this Chapter, to compel the production of corporate records for examination.

(e)       A member of a corporation that has the power to elect, appoint, or designate a majority of the directors of another domestic or foreign corporation, whether nonprofit or business, shall have inspection rights with respect to the records of that other corporation. (1955, c. 1230; 1985 (Reg. Sess., 1986), c. 801, s. 31; 1993, c. 398, s. 1.)_


LINK

Here is also some info on HOA's and the NC timeshare act.


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## Sou13

*Southcape?*

Eric, could you find the info we *Southcape Resort* interval owners need?  (Somehow this discussion seems to have gone off track into a general FAC discussion).


----------



## Carolinian

Some of the techniques used to con people out of their timeshare deeds for worthless points might also be of interest to the North Carolina Real Estate Commission.

It was the North Carolina Real Estate Commission which forced RCI's hand to modify some of the more egregious aspects of RCI Points (or GPN as it was called then) when it was first rolled out.  They threatened to treat RCI Points as a timeshare developer with all that entailed rather than an exchange program unless they made some changes to the most anti-consumer aspects, like the automatic renewals.  RCI caved.

Some of the very techniques described are used to con people into other points programs including RCI Points.


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## Carolinian

Tombo - I am curious as to which resort in NC you own at that has this problem.


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## Carolinian

Here is a good example of what can happen if you let a points operation push your members to convert their weeks:

www.timesharetalk.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10835 

Weeks members are being pushed out the door and forced to convert, then the resort itself will likely be sold.

Points operators have pulled the same scam repeatedly in South Africa conning people into converting to points, then taking over the resort and ultimately selling either some of the units or the whole resort.  There are multiple stories on this scam on the Crimeshare site.  It has also been pulled on the Canary Islands.


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## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> Eric, could you find the info we *Southcape Resort* interval owners need?  (Somehow this discussion seems to have gone off track into a general FAC discussion).




Here is the Massachusett Timeshare Act: LINK.

The address list portion is covered here:

_(b) The managing entity shall keep reasonably available for inspection and copying by any time-share owner all addresses, known to it or to the developer, of all the time-share owners with the principal permanent residence address of each indicated if known. The managing entity shall revise continually the list of addresses in the light of any information it obtains, and the developer shall keep the managing entity advised of any information he has or obtains_

Much more reasonable than the one for Florida, which prohibits the managing entity from sharing the list, and requires an owner to pay for the cost of mailing proxy solicitations.


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## Sou13

*Thank you, Eric!*



ecwinch said:


> Here is the Mass Timeshare Act: LINK.
> 
> The address list portion is covered here:
> 
> _(b) The managing entity shall keep reasonably available for inspection and copying by any time-share owner all addresses, known to it or to the developer, of all the time-share owners with the principal permanent residence address of each indicated if known. The managing entity shall revise continually the list of addresses in the light of any information it obtains, and the developer shall keep the managing entity advised of any information he has or obtains_
> 
> Much more reasonable than the one for Florida, which prohibits the managing entity from sharing the list, and requires an owner to pay for the cost of mailing proxy solicitations.



Thank you, Eric!  You've done us an enormous favor!  Long live TUG!


----------



## tombo

Carolinian said:


> Tombo - I am curious as to which resort in NC you own at that has this problem.



Blue Ridge Village. I own a week in the older section Phase one which is not totally controlled by Festiva (at least not yet), and a week in Phase two where one of Festiva's CEO's came to our annual meeting and informed the owners that Festiva could do whatever they want to in Phase two since they control the majority of votes in Phase two.

I love this resort and like both my winter ski week in phase one and my summer week in phase two, but my favorite time to visit unfortunatelly is the week I own in Phase two. The board in phase two as of 2 years ago was 3 Festiva employees and 2 who I think are't associated with Festiva. Phase one was still controlled 3 to 2 by non Festiva board members (thank goodness).  Festiva became the mgt company when they acquired the resort and there is no way we can get rid of them even though they have proven themselves to be poor money managers with regards to keeping MF's down at numerous resorts. I know your resort hired SPM, and I love them. I own at a resort SPM manages, and I am impressed. I wish SPM had the opportunity to manage Blue Ridge Village but the board(s) will never let anyone but Festiva manage our resort . This will cost the owners a lot of money because Festiva pads the cororate bottom line with money they make by overcharging the owners since they are the mgt company IMO

Ever since the CEO stood at the annual meeting in 2007 and said that if we didn't like what festiva was doing at our resort that they would allow us to deed our weeks or points to Festiva and we could leave, I have been really mad. I like this resort a lot and owned my weeks long before Festiva showed up. They are trying to make any dissenters leave, but so far I have refused to capitulate even though leaving would be easier than fighting them.


----------



## somerville

FestivaRep said:


> Actually the press release did not say anything about us 'buying' OBX I/II, it just said that a resort in St. Augustine was 'involved in the acquisition' which it was. From the press release, which can be found in the Press Room on our website:
> 
> _Resorts involved in the acquisition and previously owned by Peppertree Resorts are located in Wisconsin Dells, Wis., Branson, Mo., Gatlinburg, Tenn., Myrtle Beach, S.C., and St. Augustine, Fla.  Four North Carolina resort locations include Outer Banks, Atlantic Beach, Banner Elk and Maggie Valley.  The properties in Wisconsin Dells, Banner Elk and Atlantic Beach also include undeveloped land.  _


What does St. Augustine, FL have to do with Outer Banks Beach Club in NC?

I thought the resort in St. Augustine was Ocean Gate.  The reviews for Ocean Gate on Trip Advisor are horrendous - mostly 1's.


----------



## FestivaRep

somerville said:


> What does St. Augustine, FL have to do with Outer Banks Beach Club in NC?
> 
> I thought the resort in St. Augustine was Ocean Gate.  The reviews for Ocean Gate on Trip Advisor are horrendous - mostly 1's.



Sorry, you're right, I posted that in a hurry on my way out of the office last night - it mentions the location Outer Banks, and doesn't say anything about 'buying' the beach club, just that it was involved in the acquisition.


----------



## Carolinian

FestivaRep said:


> Sorry, you're right, I posted that in a hurry on my way out of the office last night - it mentions the location Outer Banks, and doesn't say anything about 'buying' the beach club, just that it was involved in the acquisition.



That is playing on words, sort of like a former president debating ''what 'is' is''.


----------



## Carolinian

tombo said:


> Blue Ridge Village. I own a week in the older section Phase one which is not totally controlled by Festiva (at least not yet), and a week in Phase two where one of Festiva's CEO's came to our annual meeting and informed the owners that Festiva could do whatever they want to in Phase two since they control the majority of votes in Phase two.
> 
> I love this resort and like both my winter ski week in phase one and my summer week in phase two, but my favorite time to visit unfortunatelly is the week I own in Phase two. The board in phase two as of 2 years ago was 3 Festiva employees and 2 who I think are't associated with Festiva. Phase one was still controlled 3 to 2 by non Festiva board members (thank goodness).  Festiva became the mgt company when they acquired the resort and there is no way we can get rid of them even though they have proven themselves to be poor money managers with regards to keeping MF's down at numerous resorts. I know your resort hired SPM, and I love them. I own at a resort SPM manages, and I am impressed. I wish SPM had the opportunity to manage Blue Ridge Village but the board(s) will never let anyone but Festiva manage our resort . This will cost the owners a lot of money because Festiva pads the cororate bottom line with money they make by overcharging the owners since they are the mgt company IMO
> 
> Ever since the CEO stood at the annual meeting in 2007 and said that if we didn't like what festiva was doing at our resort that they would allow us to deed our weeks or points to Festiva and we could leave, I have been really mad. I like this resort a lot and owned my weeks long before Festiva showed up. They are trying to make any dissenters leave, but so far I have refused to capitulate even though leaving would be easier than fighting them.



I suggest you set up a concerned owners group and get an internet discussion group organized.  I know that www.timeshareforums.com has provided these free to such groups in the past, and I suspect they would do so for you.  Do a proxy fight to vote out the two conflict of interest board members from Festiva.  Write an article for the resort newsletter on the dangers of converting to points.


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## FestivaRep

Carolinian said:


> That is playing on words, sort of like a former president debating ''what 'is' is''.



Actually, it was simply to keep the press release brief without delving into the details of each individual resort as the relationships vary and it wasn't necessary to get into such details in a press release to the industry. As press releases go, it was already 'long' being more than one page. It was not intended to be deceptive, and that's all I'm going to say on that subject as someone pointed out before that this thread has already strayed away from the original topic.


----------



## Sou13

*Back to those Outfield Marketing offers*



FestivaRep said:


> Actually, it was simply to keep the press release brief without delving into the details of each individual resort as the relationships vary and it wasn't necessary to get into such details in a press release to the industry. As press releases go, it was already 'long' being more than one page. It was not intended to be deceptive, and that's all I'm going to say on that subject as someone pointed out before that this thread has already strayed away from the original topic.



So getting back to the Outfield Marketing offers, I've learned from other sources that the going "conversion" price may be the same for two weeks which means that the $3185 goes to Outfield Marketing, not Festiva Adventure Club or Southcape Resort.

What I'm trying to ascertain is whether a "red" week at Southcape is worth as many points as a "red" week at other resorts in the Club.  How many points is a "red" week at Southcape worth?



> Originally Posted by *wmauryd*
> It's not directly related to Southcape but it's interesting to read about the $80k in unpaid vouchers, awarded by a Cape Cod timeshare marketing company, today on http://www.capecodonline.com/
> 
> How are sales going at Southcape anyone? Are promotional meal vouchers being awarded for tours?



All I got for my trouble was a cup of coffee, unless the promo was 3500 points for a week that is worth only 2900 in the FAC.


----------



## Carolinian

Sou13 said:


> So getting back to the Outfield Marketing offers, I've learned from other sources that the going "conversion" price may be the same for two weeks which means that the $3185 goes to Outfield Marketing, not Festiva Adventure Club or Southcape Resort.
> 
> What I'm trying to ascertain is whether a "red" week at Southcape is worth as many points as a "red" week at other resorts in the Club.  How many points is a "red" week at Southcape worth?
> 
> 
> 
> All I got for my trouble was a cup of coffee, unless the promo was 3500 points for a week that is worth only 2900 in the FAC.



HOA's that allow marketing companies to sell RCI Points conversions get a cut of the take.  That is the industry standard, but I could not tell you precisely the going percentage.

If Outfield, which has two members voting on the board, is selling points conversions and not giving anything to the resort, that is a huge red flag.  Their involvement on the board had conflict of interest written all over it.  I would try to have a state agency, either the one that regulates real estate sales (probably the Real Estate Commission) or the one that regulates timeshares (probably also the Real Estate Commission) take a hard serious look at this situation.  The way to do that is file a citizen complaint.  Someone taken in by their spiel who has now wised up would be the ideal complainant, but any member would probably do.


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## FestivaRep

Sou13 said:


> What I'm trying to ascertain is whether a "red" week at Southcape is worth as many points as a "red" week at other resorts in the Club.  How many points is a "red" week at Southcape worth?



The points required to stay one week at Southcape through the Adventure Club ranges from 2100 to 5300, depending on the week number. The points values for week long stays are comparable (though may not be exactly the same) at all FAC resorts when comparing the same unit sizes.  

For another comparison, a Red week at Southcape = Interval International exchange, red week, 2 bedroom unit.


----------



## ecwinch

Carolinian said:


> HOA's that allow marketing companies to sell RCI Points conversions get a cut of the take.  That is the industry standard, but I could not tell you precisely the going percentage..



I think you are blending the various parties (NEVS, Outfield, Festiva) and the different resorts (Southcape & Blue Ridge).

For Southcape owners using Outfield that process involves deeding your week over FAC. FestivaRep has already commented that owners can join FAC without giving up their deeded week; by going to another FAC sales center and by-passing Outfield. Then it becomes more of a RCI points arrangement, where your fixed week converts to a certain number of points for the duration of your membership. RCI does not take the deed for your week in a points conversion.

So the only smoking gun is NEVS providing sales space and the owners list to Outfield. The owners list is the issue I would focus on, as there does not seem to be any basis for why that information would be shared with Outfield without appropriate consideration.

Since the resort is not involved in the conversion, not sure why the HOA would get a cut of the conversion fee. I think RCI points is a different animal, since it allows short term stays, in essence allowing a fixed week to be broken up into smaller stays. For which the HOA would need to be involved. Does FAC allow that?

It opens a great question though. For FAC conversion at Southcape, is the conversion permanent?


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## FestivaRep

ecwinch said:


> Since the resort is not involved in the conversion, not sure why the HOA would get a cut of the conversion fee. I think RCI points is a different animal, since it allows short term stays, in essence allowing a fixed week to be broken up into smaller stays. For which the HOA would need to be involved. Does FAC allow that?



FAC does allow the points to be broken up into smaller stays during the usage year. They can either be used for a 7 night stay, or for two stays of 3 nights and 4 nights.


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## Fig

*Why HOA can't collect conversion fees*

ecwinch wrote:

"Since the resort is not involved in the conversion, not sure why the HOA would get a cut of the conversion fee. "

There is another reason. HOAs are non-profit. Outfield is for-profit. Southcape could have its status as a non-profit yanked by the IRS if it engaged in for profit activities. 

It appears you have some very sophistacted players here using the non-profit membership of Southcape and other HOAs like Sandcastle for some substantial financial gains. I will post my thoughts as to how they may be operating on Southcape's board hopefully today.


----------



## Fig

*FAC deed ownership*



FestivaRep said:


> The only weeks at Southcape owned by Festiva are from those owners who have converted to the FAC. *Festiva did not purchase any unsold, repossessed or deeded back weeks from Southcape, and Southcape was never part of the Equivest points system.* So we only have as many votes as those who convert, and that number changes daily.



My understanding was that these deeds were put in a trust...a trust is not Festiva, so how can Festive "own" these deeds? Festiva is a for profit company not a trust. Please comment.


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## tombo

ecwinch said:


> So the only smoking gun is NEVS providing sales space and the owners list to Outfield. The owners list is the issue I would focus on, as there does not seem to be any basis for why that information would be shared with Outfield without appropriate consideration.



I wouldn't say that is the only smoking gun, but it is questionable if not illegal tactics. I have never allowed in writing or verbally for my name, address, phone number, or ownership information to be given to marketing groups by Festiva or my resort. That is a privacy law violation IMO. In spite of not wanting my information disseminated, I have been contacted at home several times by Festiva or their 3rd party marketing company to try and get me to meet them in New Orleans to upgrade and hear about changes that Festiva is making. The only way they could call me and know that I own week(s) at a Festiva resort is if Festive gave or sold them my information. 

If there are any lawyers here please tell us how to start a lawsuit against Festriva for disclosing private confidential information without our permission. I owned my weeks before festive ever showed up, so I know I never signed any agreement allowing them to disclose personal private information. The only reason that they have any of my personal information in their possession is because they are owners and the Mgt company at a resort I own, not because I gave it to them. This practice has to be illegal, and we should pursue legal action to make them cease and desist, plus pay punitive damages IMO.


----------



## ecwinch

Fig said:


> ecwinch wrote:
> 
> " HOAs are non-profit. Outfield is for-profit. Southcape could have its status as a non-profit yanked by the IRS if it engaged in for profit activities.



I do not think that is it, since non-profits can engage in for for-profit activities (like the little league running a concession stand). They can even have to pay taxes on the profit if it is from unrelated business activity. The HOA would have to have significant unrelated business activity to endanger it's non-profit status.

"Even though nonprofit organizations are not created to pursue a profit, sometimes they have them. Profit is not denied to the nonprofit as long as the organization is pursuing the mission for which it was founded.
However, some profit is taxable and some profit is not. Many nonprofits engage in "related" business activities to help sustain their primary mission. Any profit from such an activity is tax-exempt."


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## FestivaRep

Fig said:


> My understanding was that these deeds were put in a trust...a trust is not Festiva, so how can Festive "own" these deeds? Festiva is a for profit company not a trust. Please comment.



The weeks are owned by the Festiva Adventure Club Trust, not by Festiva Resorts, LLC.


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## ecwinch

I get confused by all the players in the game and the fact that this discussion is running across two threads.

I suggest we limit this thread to general questions about Festiva and the Festiva Adventure Club, and move discussion about Southcape in particular to that thread. I think the issues are inter-related, but seperate.

Even the title of this thread is off - it really is NEVS that has taken over Southcape, not Festiva.

And FestivaRep clearly cannot provide definitive answers about who makes up the Southcape board, how Outfield has the owner list, why they have a sales office on site, etc.


----------



## ecwinch

FestivaRep said:


> FAC does allow the points to be broken up into smaller stays during the usage year. They can either be used for a 7 night stay, or for two stays of 3 nights and 4 nights.



This opens up a great question. If the owners own a fixed or floating week, they have to use that week in it's entirety. Every resort is different, but at the ones I own, I cannot break my usage into shorter stays - even with my floating weeks.

How does FAC obtain this benefit, that is not available to all the other owners at the resort? 

Is usage of that nature in the by-laws of the underlying resort?

If not, and if it is part of a seperate agreement with the HOA, is consideration given for the greater expense (housekeeping) incurred when a FAC member uses only part of a week (ie. 1 or more unit cleanings per week).


----------



## Sou13

*It's supposed to be about Southcape and Outfield Marketing*



ecwinch said:


> I get confused by all the players in the game and the fact that this discussion is running across two threads.
> 
> I suggest we limit this thread to general questions about Festiva and the Festiva Adventure Club, and move discussion about Southcape in particular to that thread. I think the issues are inter-related, but seperate.
> 
> Even the title of this thread is off - it really is NEVS that has taken over Southcape, not Festiva.
> 
> And FestivaRep clearly cannot provide definitive answers about who makes up the Southcape board, how Outfield has the owner list, why they have a sales office on site, etc.



The original subject title got somehow changed, possibly by a moderator, and the discussion got moved.  It's supposed to be about Southcape!


----------



## FestivaRep

ecwinch said:


> And FestivaRep clearly cannot provide definitive answers about who makes up the Southcape board, how Outfield has the owner list, why they have a sales office on site, etc.



That is correct!


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> The original subject title got somehow changed, possibly by a moderator, and the discussion got moved.  It's supposed to be about Southcape!



But there is a thread about Southcape in another forum. Why have two threads on the same issue?


----------



## ecwinch

FestivaRep said:


> That is correct!



At least I got one thing right today.

Here is one that hopefully you can answer. If I join FAC at Southcape through Outfield, am I transferring my week to the Festiva Adventure Club Trust?

Is the transfer permanent i.e. does the underlying deed transfer also?


----------



## FestivaRep

ecwinch said:


> How does FAC obtain this benefit, that is not available to all the other owners at the resort?
> 
> Is usage of that nature in the by-laws of the underlying resort?
> 
> If not, and if it is part of a seperate agreement with the HOA, is consideration given for the greater expense (housekeeping) incurred when a FAC member uses only part of a week (ie. 1 or more unit cleanings per week).



FAC owns the unit and week so if the club wants to allow someone (ie our members) to use the unit for 4 nights and someone else to use it for 3 nights, it can. In theory a fixed week owner could allow someone to use their unit for 4 nights and someone to use their unit for 3 nights if they wanted. (for example if you wanted to let your parents use it 3 nights and your in-laws use it 4 nights)

In the case of FAC we always have the room cleaned after the first guest checks-out and before the next guest checks-in.  The HOA bills the additional cleaning cost to FAC.


----------



## FestivaRep

ecwinch said:


> Here is one that hopefully you can answer. If I join FAC at Southcape through Outfield, am I transferring my week to the Festiva Adventure Club Trust?
> 
> Is the transfer permanent i.e. does the underlying deed transfer also?



Yes, the deeded week transfers to the Adventure Club Trust whether you do so through Outfield or directly through Festiva.


----------



## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> I have never allowed in writing or verbally for my name, address, phone number, or ownership information to be given to marketing groups by Festiva or my resort. That is a privacy law violation IMO. In spite of not wanting my information disseminated, I have been contacted at home several times by Festiva or their 3rd party marketing company to try and get me to meet them in New Orleans to upgrade and hear about changes that Festiva is making. The only way they could call me and know that I own week(s) at a Festiva resort is if Festive gave or sold them my information.
> 
> If there are any lawyers here please tell us how to start a lawsuit against Festriva for disclosing private confidential information without our permission. I owned my weeks before festive ever showed up, so I know I never signed any agreement allowing them to disclose personal private information. The only reason that they have any of my personal information in their possession is because they are owners and the Mgt company at a resort I own, not because I gave it to them. This practice has to be illegal, and we should pursue legal action to make them cease and desist, plus pay punitive damages IMO.



Tombo,
I will address this even though it is off topic from Southcape. Festiva Resorts and Festiva Management Group do have legal access to your personal information because of your 'existing business relationship' with your resort (BRV) that became a part of Festiva. Festiva has legitimate access to your information and we can legally share the information *between related entities*. 

We never share or rent any owners' or members' personal information with any non-related or contracted companies.

Also, you can request to be removed from our internal marketing call list, which means that you will not receive calls from our marketing department or any affiliated company that does marketing for us (i.e. Outfield). 

If you wish to be removed from that list, please send an e-mail to myemail@festivaresorts.com with your name, home resort and mailing address (so we can locate your account) and simply write 'request to be removed from internal marketing call list.'


----------



## Carolinian

Fig said:


> ecwinch wrote:
> 
> "Since the resort is not involved in the conversion, not sure why the HOA would get a cut of the conversion fee. "
> 
> There is another reason. HOAs are non-profit. Outfield is for-profit. Southcape could have its status as a non-profit yanked by the IRS if it engaged in for profit activities.
> 
> It appears you have some very sophistacted players here using the non-profit membership of Southcape and other HOAs like Sandcastle for some substantial financial gains. I will post my thoughts as to how they may be operating on Southcape's board hopefully today.



As long as the receipts are not paid out to members, then a Non Profit can very well accept compensation for use of its assets.  The test has more to do with what it paid out and to whom than what is taken in.  If members share in ''profits'' then there is a problem.  If the receipts from a portion of such sales are retained in the general account and used for proper non-profit purposes, then there is no problem.

A comparable situation would be a prime week that the HOA receives as a deed back and then turns around and sells for a decent price.  This may on the surface be a profit, but as long as those proceeds are used for non-profit purposes, then it will not impact tax status.


----------



## Carolinian

Tombo,

Rather than accepting this answer, I would contact the state agency that regulates timeshare in the state where the resort is located.  In most states that is the Real Estate Commission and lay out what is going on here.

Management would not inherently have a right to that list and state law may well restrict what they can do with it.

One resort on the OBX had an employee make off with a membership list and the Dare County Sheriffs Department jumped right on that investigation of violation of criminal law.  I don't know all of the circumstances or the laws of the state involved in your case, so I would start on the civil side, and the timeshare regulators would be the starting point.  The more members you can get to make complaints, the more likely you are to build a fire under them.  Some such agencies are very proactive for timeshare consumers, and others less so.





FestivaRep said:


> Tombo,
> I will address this even though it is off topic from Southcape. Festiva Resorts and Festiva Management Group do have legal access to your personal information because of your 'existing business relationship' with your resort (BRV) that became a part of Festiva. Festiva has legitimate access to your information and we can legally share the information *between related entities*.
> 
> We never share or rent any owners' or members' personal information with any non-related or contracted companies.
> 
> Also, you can request to be removed from our internal marketing call list, which means that you will not receive calls from our marketing department or any affiliated company that does marketing for us (i.e. Outfield).
> 
> If you wish to be removed from that list, please send an e-mail to myemail@festivaresorts.com with your name, home resort and mailing address (so we can locate your account) and simply write 'request to be removed from internal marketing call list.'


----------



## ecwinch

I agree with Carolinan.

The weak link in FestivaRep response is the right of the HOA (or their agents) to share the members list with Festiva, who in turn may have shared it with Outfield.


----------



## FestivaRep

Carolinian said:


> ...Management would not inherently have a right to that list and state law may well restrict what they can do with it.
> 
> One resort on the OBX had an employee make off with a membership list and the Dare County Sheriffs Department jumped right on that investigation of violation of criminal law...



The list for BRV members (and all other Peppertree Resorts/Equivest owners/members) was provided to us by Wyndham when the acquisition of those assets took place in 2007, as I'm sure the list was passed to Wyndham from whomever managed that resort prior to them.  

I agree that if a former or current employee were to 'make off' with any list of owners or members, they should be criminally investigated and charged as that would be in direct violation of Festiva's corporate policy. But that's completely unrelated to how/why Festiva's corporate office has access to personal information for owners at a resort that they manage.

It does not seem unusual to me for a management company to have access to such information so that we can communicate with owners from a customer service perspective.  All owner communications (maintenance fee billing, newsletters, reservation confirmations, etc.) come from Festiva's corporate office, and not from the resort. That is one of our responsibilities as the management company, and in order to do that we need the owners' information. 

As i said before, you can be removed from all of our marketing lists.


----------



## ecwinch

FestivaRep said:


> But that's completely unrelated to how/why Festiva's corporate office has access to personal information for owners at a resort that they manage.
> 
> It does not seem unusual to me for a management company to have access to such information so that we can communicate with owners from a customer service perspective.  All owner communications (maintenance fee billing, newsletters, reservation confirmations, etc.) come from Festiva's corporate office, and not from the resort. That is one of our responsibilities as the management company, and in order to do that we need the owners' information.



I do not think we are questioning why the management company has that access. The question is why the management company is providing it to third-parties for the purpose of soliciting members for matters not related to the resort.

And your response is only applicable to BRV, since you are not managing Southcape.


----------



## FestivaRep

ecwinch said:


> I do not think we are questioning why the management company has that access. The question is why the management company is providing it to third-parties for the purpose of soliciting members for matters not related to the resort.
> 
> And your response is only applicable to BRV, since you are not managing Southcape.



Right, my response to Tombo was specifically talking about BRV because that's where Tombo owns.

Because we have a contract with Outfield, they are a 'related entity,' so we legally can share owner information with them, but only for the purposes of selling the Adventure Club. If they (or anyone else) misuses or abuses that information, then we would seek action.  Again, you can request to have your information removed from our internal marketing list.

Further, Southcape is different (and that's where this thread is getting muddled as someone else mentioned) because we do not manage that resort and would not necessarily be the ones who provided the owner list to Outfield. Has any Southcape owner contacted the new management company or the HOA at SC for this information to help clarify?


----------



## Sou13

*"Point System Discussions" Forum*



ecwinch said:


> But there is a thread about Southcape in another forum. Why have two threads on the same issue?



Because this is a different forum.  The "Southcape Resort" discussion is in the "U.S. Eastern" forum and this is a "Point System Discussion"!


----------



## Sou13

*I hope so!*



FestivaRep said:


> Right, my response to Tombo was specifically talking about BRV because that's where Tombo owns.
> 
> Because we have a contract with Outfield, they are a 'related entity,' so we legally can share owner information with them, but only for the purposes of selling the Adventure Club. If they (or anyone else) misuses or abuses that information, then we would seek action.  Again, you can request to have your information removed from our internal marketing list.
> 
> Further, Southcape is different (and that's where this thread is getting muddled as someone else mentioned) because we do not manage that resort and would not necessarily be the ones who provided the owner list to Outfield. Has any Southcape owner contacted the new management company or the HOA at SC for this information to help clarify?



To answer your question, I most certainly hope so!

Since so much of this discussion has come about as a result of what we *Southcape Resort* owners have shared in the U.S. Eastern Discussions forum, I hope that your answers have shed further light on our predicament.

If you go to the link in my signature you will be able to read for yourself the letter we received from Cliff Hagberg as an explanation for the increase in the maintenance fee.  Nowhere in the letter does Managing Partner Hagberg explain that we will be contacted by Outfield Marketing *for the sole and only purpose of enticing (?) us to convert our deeded weeks to the Festiva Adventure Club!*

I have always wondered why I get so many calls from timeshare resale telemarketers.  Who gave them the info that I own a timeshare?  Was it Interval International or Southcape Resort?

Thank you for advising us on how to get our names removed from telemarketers' lists.  And thank you for responding to our concerns.

Why is everyone so unwilling to share the offers made by Outfield Marketing?


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> It does not seem unusual to me for a management company to have access to such information so that we can communicate with owners from a customer service perspective.  All owner communications (maintenance fee billing, newsletters, reservation confirmations, etc.) come from Festiva's corporate office, and not from the resort. That is one of our responsibilities as the management company, and in order to do that we need the owners' information.
> 
> As i said before, you can be removed from all of our marketing lists.



 The management company having access to my personal information for use relating to my ownership is understandable. All of the resorts I own have my personal information, but not one of the other resorts has ever called my home trying to get me to come to a sales presentation! Please tell me how doing your mgt responsibilities could somehow relate to making calls trying to get me to join FAC! If Festiva buys a life insurance company are you allowed to give them my personal information to call and sell me life insurance? If Festiva acquire a credit card company can you give them my personal information so that they can pre-approve me for a credit card? If Festiva owns or hires any business are you allowed to give my personal information to them without my consent? I can't imagine that would be true.

First of all, I am on the national do not call list. Having access to my ownership information should not usurpe my legal right to not be called by salesman. Secondly, no one from Festiva Mgt has ever contacted me by phone regarding MF's, billing, reservation's, confirmations, etc by. If I was contacted regarding anything related to ownership issues, it would be understandable. However the only phone calls I have EVER received from anyone related to Festiva  are trying to get me to come to a sales presentation. That is unacceptable and I really feel if a lawyer will take this class action suit that it would be shown in court to be ilegal. The privacy laws do not state that you have to contact a company to stop them from using your personal information, the laws say that the company must have written or verbal authorization to give anyone your personal information. 

I think a lawyer could have a field day trying to make you prove that you have rights to sell or give my personal information to a sales department because I am an owner at a resort you manage, and the sales organization you are giving my information to and Festiva are related entities. Using your rationale, the Doctor who treats your obesity could give your medical information to the marketing dept of a Hospital he is employed by to call and try to sell you a membership in their Gym or to solicit you for gastric bypass surgery. If you buy a Ford automobile they can give your home address, phone number, social security number and other information to an extended warranty company they are associated with to call and try to sell you a warranty. The bank who closes your home loan can give your personal information to the P and C insurance company the bank has their building insured with so that company can call you to try and get you to insure your home with them. All of these are illegal as best I know, and it should really be a slam dunk to prove that Outfield got the owner's information from Festiva when Festiva doesn't even manage that resort. Of course your claim is that you didn't give them that information, but if it wasn't from Festiva, how could they get it?

The Rep gave a very long explanation justifying their dissemination of owner's  personal information to a Festive or Festiva hired sales force which IMO is illegal. I hope an attorny can enlighten us because as the old saying goes, "Me thinks that thou does protest too much".


----------



## somerville

I thought Congress passed a law that required companies to provide notice to consumers that they would be sharing personal information with third parties and that the consumers were supposed to be able to opt out.  Is Festiva notifying members in writing of their right to stop Festiva from sharing personal information?


----------



## Carolinian

FestivaRep said:


> The list for BRV members (and all other Peppertree Resorts/Equivest owners/members) was provided to us by Wyndham when the acquisition of those assets took place in 2007, as I'm sure the list was passed to Wyndham from whomever managed that resort prior to them.
> 
> I agree that if a former or current employee were to 'make off' with any list of owners or members, they should be criminally investigated and charged as that would be in direct violation of Festiva's corporate policy. But that's completely unrelated to how/why Festiva's corporate office has access to personal information for owners at a resort that they manage.
> 
> It does not seem unusual to me for a management company to have access to such information so that we can communicate with owners from a customer service perspective.  All owner communications (maintenance fee billing, newsletters, reservation confirmations, etc.) come from Festiva's corporate office, and not from the resort. That is one of our responsibilities as the management company, and in order to do that we need the owners' information.
> 
> As i said before, you can be removed from all of our marketing lists.



Having access to it while managing a resort is one thing. Using it for other purposes or passing it on as part of a sale is another thing altogether.  This whole situation really smells, and needs a thorough investigation to root out the culprits.


----------



## Carolinian

FestivaRep said:


> Right, my response to Tombo was specifically talking about BRV because that's where Tombo owns.
> 
> Because we have a contract with Outfield, they are a 'related entity,' so we legally can share owner information with them, but only for the purposes of selling the Adventure Club. If they (or anyone else) misuses or abuses that information, then we would seek action.  Again, you can request to have your information removed from our internal marketing list.
> 
> Further, Southcape is different (and that's where this thread is getting muddled as someone else mentioned) because we do not manage that resort and would not necessarily be the ones who provided the owner list to Outfield. Has any Southcape owner contacted the new management company or the HOA at SC for this information to help clarify?



The state corporate statutes I am familiar do not allow providing membership lists with third parties for commercial purposes.  If merely having a contract with a third party allowed someone to get around that, the statute would have no meaning.  Someone needs to investigate these goings on.


----------



## FestivaRep

Sou13 said:


> I have always wondered why I get so many calls from timeshare resale telemarketers.  Who gave them the info that I own a timeshare?  Was it Interval International or Southcape Resort?



If you own a deeded week at any timeshare resort, the recorded deed is public record in the courthouse in the county where the timeshare is located. That's how a lot of resale companies get owner information.


----------



## Fig

*Anyone with an unlisted phone number get a call from Outfield?*



FestivaRep said:


> If you own a deeded week at any timeshare resort, the recorded deed is public record in the courthouse in the county where the timeshare is located. That's how a lot of resale companies get owner information.



To my knowledge, the phone number is not a part of that information. If anybody reading this had an unlisted phone number, is the owner of a time share and was contacted by Outfield Marketing to convert to Festiva's point system, by all means, feel free to share this with the board.


----------



## Carolinian

FestivaRep said:


> If you own a deeded week at any timeshare resort, the recorded deed is public record in the courthouse in the county where the timeshare is located. That's how a lot of resale companies get owner information.



For deeds that are not recent, many would be out of date, however.  And that is very manpower intensive to search them down that way.


----------



## FestivaRep

Carolinian said:


> For deeds that are not recent, many would be out of date, however.  And that is very manpower intensive to search them down that way.



I agree, and that's not how Festiva (or Outfield to my knowledge) gets the owner information, but it was my understanding that Sou13 was referring to being contacted by timeshare *resale* companies, not Outfield.


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## FestivaRep

Fig said:


> To my knowledge, the phone number is not a part of that information. If anybody reading this had an unlisted phone number, is the owner of a time share and was contacted by Outfield Marketing to convert to Festiva's point system, by all means, feel free to share this with the board.



I was not implying that this is how Outfield got the owners' information, as Sou13's question was specifically about timeshare resale companies.


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> I was not implying that this is how Outfield got the owners' information, as Sou13's question was specifically about timeshare resale companies.




So you are saying what you said before, that Outfield gets it's information from Festiva? 


I have received a lot of junk mail from 3rd party resale companies and I assume they got my address from public records on recent purchases, but only Festiva has called my home to solicit a sale from me even though I am on the "national do not call list". I can assure you that my home phone and cell phone are not listed on the deed or in the public records. In fact most of my deeds are in my business address (including BRV) which is not listed in my name, so it is impossible to get my home phone number from that address.

From this moment on I would like to ask everyone to document when you are called and from what number (if they don't block it using caller ID). Even if caller ID is blocked, the numbers can be subpoena'd if you have the date and time of the call. Let's get some definitve facts and dates and see if the state attorney general feels like they have the right to call us from Festiva records without out permission. I think they might have crossed a very serious legal line with this marketing technique, and if they did break the law it is time they cease and desist and like in Missouri pay penalties and restitution. I for one shouldn't have ever been called, and when I get called again I will have the time and date written down and ready to give to any legal entity that will listen. I hope everyone else does the same so we can have some real proof to pursue what we feel is wrongdoing by Festiva in their marketing practices and what is in our opinion the unlawful dissemination of our personal information to Festiva's sales force and to their 3rd party sales forces.


----------



## Fig

tombo said:


> So you are saying what you said before, that Outfield gets it's information from Festiva?
> 
> 
> In sorting through the players here, the source of the information for Southcape and Sandcastle both on the Cape and both being heavily marketed to by Outfield to convert to Festiva may lie with Cliff Hagberg, a "trustee" at Southcape and a key player in at New England Vacation Services and a very related sounding company...New England Vacation Management (NEVM), where he is CEO.
> 
> Cliff has access to VERY detailed records such as:
> 
> "...complete record of each of New England Vacation Management’s owner information, with detailed contact and financial information. Another one of Hagberg’s demands was that the new software be easy to use, even by entry-level personnel and part-time summer help..." (Hmm...those two thoughts are a little disconcerting.)
> 
> Here's the article http://askmando.com/authors/brosious_matt/resort_management_software.html
> 
> Cliff Hagberg, has identified himself in communications along with Steven Lamantia and Thomas C. Franks as a "trustee" of Southcape.
> 
> Thomas C. Franks is identified as the CEO of Outfield Marketing in this industry release...read down about 4 paragraphs http://www.resorttrades.com/articles.php?showMag=Resort&act=view&id=233
> 
> A Steve Lamantia was asked to leave someone's home in Brandford, MO detailed in this Trip advisor post after trying to sell Festiva points to an owner in a home meeting that sound a lot like the ones taking place with Southcape and Sandcastle owners.
> 
> http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html
> 
> This visit occured within months of news reports Festiva being fined hundreds of thousands by The Attorney General of MO for its marketing tactics in Branford.
> http://www.kspr.com/news/local/21573409.html
> 
> So, Cliff has a database including very detailed information on HOA owners, Tom is the CEO of Outfield and Steve appears to be a door-to-door salesperson at Outfield who may have moved up the ranks...Cliff, Tom and Steve are referred to in communications as Trustees at Southcape.
> 
> Southcape owners are being heavily marketed to by Outfield through repeated phone calls to set up in home visits to give up their deeds and join Festiva Adventure Club. You connect the dots....


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## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> only Festiva has called my home to solicit a sale from me even though I am on the "national do not call list". I can assure you that my home phone and cell phone are not listed on the deed or in the public records. In fact most of my deeds are in my business address (including BRV) which is not listed in my name, so it is impossible to get my phone number from that address.



I posted instructions earlier for how you can be removed from Festiva's internal marketing call list.  Please let me know if you need those to be posted again.


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> I posted instructions earlier for how you can be removed from Festiva's internal marketing call list.  Please let me know if you need those to be posted again.



My question to you is not how I need to be removed from the marketing list. My question is how does Festiva feel that they have the legal right to give my personal information without my permission to any sales force so they can call me to solicit sales?


----------



## Carolinian

Sounds like someone needs to pay a visit to the state agency that regulates timeshare developers, sales, and HOA's, usually the state Real Estae Commission.  Something definitely smells here.




Fig said:


> tombo said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you are saying what you said before, that Outfield gets it's information from Festiva?
> 
> 
> In sorting through the players here, the source of the information for Southcape and Sandcastle both on the Cape and both being heavily marketed to by Outfield to convert to Festiva may lie with Cliff Hagberg, a "trustee" at Southcape and a key player in at New England Vacation Services and a very related sounding company...New England Vacation Management (NEVM), where he is CEO.
> 
> Cliff has access to VERY detailed records such as:
> 
> "...complete record of each of New England Vacation Management’s owner information, with detailed contact and financial information. Another one of Hagberg’s demands was that the new software be easy to use, even by entry-level personnel and part-time summer help..." (Hmm...those two thoughts are a little disconcerting.)
> 
> Here's the article http://askmando.com/authors/brosious_matt/resort_management_software.html
> 
> Cliff Hagberg, has identified himself in communications along with Steven Lamantia and Thomas C. Franks as a "trustee" of Southcape.
> 
> Thomas C. Franks is identified as the CEO of Outfield Marketing in this industry release...read down about 4 paragraphs http://www.resorttrades.com/articles.php?showMag=Resort&act=view&id=233
> 
> A Steve Lamantia was asked to leave someone's home in Brandford, MO detailed in this Trip advisor post after trying to sell Festiva points to an owner in a home meeting that sound a lot like the ones taking place with Southcape and Sandcastle owners.
> 
> http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html
> 
> This visit occured within months of news reports Festiva being fined hundreds of thousands by The Attorney General of MO for its marketing tactics in Branford.
> http://www.kspr.com/news/local/21573409.html
> 
> So, Cliff has a database including very detailed information on HOA owners, Tom is the CEO of Outfield and Steve appears to be a door-to-door salesperson at Outfield who may have moved up the ranks...Cliff, Tom and Steve are referred to in communications as Trustees at Southcape.
> 
> Southcape owners are being heavily marketed to by Outfield through repeated phone calls to set up in home visits to give up their deeds and join Festiva Adventure Club. You connect the dots....
Click to expand...


----------



## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> My question to you is not how I need to be removed from the marketing list. My question is how does Festiva feel that they have the legal right to give my personal information without my permission to any sales force so they can call me to solicit sales?



Because of your existing relationship with BRV, which is now a part of Festiva. 

The information below from a Privacy Law Blog may help.

_The FCC, under the Telephone Consumer Protection Act, (“TCPA”) has jurisdiction over all entities engaged in telemarketing, whether interstate or intrastate. In 2003, both the FTC and the FCC enacted rules to implement the national do not call registry. *Under both sets of rules, businesses could continue to make live calls to any EBR (existing business relationship) consumer even if the consumer has enrolled in the national Do Not Call registry, unless the consumer has made a “company-specific” Do Not Call request to the calling entity. *_


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## FestivaRep

*out of office for a week*

I will be out of the office next week to attend the ARDA conference in Orlando. I will try to keep up with reading the board in my 'downtime' if there is any, but if my lack of participation is noticed next week, it's not because I've stopped posting/reading, just because I'm out of town.

Thanks for those of you who have offered your support, and for allowing me to participate on this board.  See you again after April 6.


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> Because of your existing relationship with BRV, which is now a part of Festiva.
> 
> The information below from a Privacy Law Blog may help.
> 
> _The FCC, under the Telephone Consumer Protection Act, (“TCPA”) has jurisdiction over all entities engaged in telemarketing, whether interstate or intrastate. In 2003, both the FTC and the FCC enacted rules to implement the national do not call registry. *Under both sets of rules, businesses could continue to make live calls to any EBR (existing business relationship) consumer even if the consumer has enrolled in the national Do Not Call registry, unless the consumer has made a “company-specific” Do Not Call request to the calling entity. *_



I don't consider the relationship that we have a business relationship. I own at a resort, you manage it. I have purchased nothing from BRV or Festiva. It might get you by legally, but it might not. I am sure that you don't want to test the legality of giving a sales force my name address, phone number, and what I own in court, or to the AG. JMHO, but if someone files a complaint I will join them because you don't now, and never have had my permission to give any salesman, anywhere, any of my personal information.


----------



## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> I don't consider the relationship that we have a business relationship. I own at a resort, you manage it. I have purchased nothing from BRV or Festiva. It might get you by legally, but it might not. I am sure that you don't want to test the legality of giving a sales force my name address, phone number, and what I own in court, or to the AG. JMHO, but if someone files a complaint I will join them because you don't now, and never have had my permission to give any salesman, anywhere, any of my personal information.



We are obviously not getting anywhere with this issue on this forum. If you with to take it further, please feel free to contact our owner services department and CC our legal department, as I have been working closely with Legal in responding to this subject and I'm sure they know what they're talking about as they work with an outside attorney who specializes in privacy law. I will not address it any further here as I don't want this thread to turn into a shouting match.


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> I will be out of the office next week to attend the ARDA conference in Orlando. I will try to keep up with reading the board in my 'downtime' if there is any, but if my lack of participation is noticed next week, it's not because I've stopped posting/reading, just because I'm out of town.
> 
> Thanks for those of you who have offered your support, and for allowing me to participate on this board.  See you again after April 6.




As crazy as this is going to sound, I sincerely hope that you have a fun week in Orlando. I am mad at Festiva and some of the things they have done and are doing at my resort (raising MF's, renovating, and I am sure upcoming assessments to renovate). I am mad at the CEO who said that if we didn't like what Festiva was doing that we could deed our weeks back. I am mad that I am getting unsolicited sales calls using my personal information, but I am not mad at you personally. You answer questions with the company line, which of course is all you can do since you are a corporate employee (although we would love for you to post here if you ever leave Festiva's employment). You are friendly in an environment which is hostile through no fault of your own. I would be mad about things Festiva does that you can't change (which I hope we can change) whether you posted here or not. Your job pays you to smooth ruffled feathers and I think you do it as well as any could. You might not agree with some of the things Festiva does either, but because of job responsibilities and possibly company loyalty you have to defend their actions whether you agree with them or not.

To make a long story short I will never be able to make you publically criticize Festiva and agree with us when we say that they are treating owners bad as long as you are employed by them. No matter what you say I will probably never like the fact that Festiva took over my resort because of the way they make money by assessing, increasing MF's, charging ridiculous mgt fees, and by trying to sell owners something they already own (the right to vacation at the resort) while charging them to take away their vote and lifetime deeded ownership for the benefit of Festiva and to the detriment of the owners IMO. 

So have a great vacation and I want you to know that I really don't dislike you in any way, I dislike Festiva's actions at my resort and others. When you return and begin to again post company rhetoric that I feel is false or misleading, I will once again spring into action and expose what I feel was a spin on the truth. When I learn of Festiva actions I feel are detrimental to owners, I will post it here loud and clear. I will admit to being wrong if shown to be wrong (I am mistaken occasionally). I know that company spokespeople don't have that option and can never admit they are wrong because it could open them up to legal repercussions. As for now have a great trip, and unless you are an officer of Festiva, I know that you are just doing the job they pay you to do. It is not now and never has been anything personal. So relax, enjoy your trip, and don't worry because I will be here when you get back


----------



## Sou13

*Back to the subject of this discussion?*



FestivaRep said:


> I will be out of the office next week to attend the ARDA conference in Orlando. I will try to keep up with reading the board in my 'downtime' if there is any, but if my lack of participation is noticed next week, it's not because I've stopped posting/reading, just because I'm out of town.
> 
> Thanks for those of you who have offered your support, and for allowing me to participate on this board.  See you again after April 6.



So now that FestivaRep is off to Orlando, can we get back to the *original* subject of this discussion?

So far I've been the only TUG member to publicly post here what Outfield Marketing's offer of the day was to me for converting my deeded week at Southcape Resort to a 40-year "trust" in the Festiva Adventure Club.

Upon revisiting the points chart found at http://www.festivaadventureclub.com (password FAC19043) I discovered that I had been mistaken about the points value assigned to a "green" week at Southcape Resort.  It's 2100, which meant that I was being offered 1400 more points than my week supposedly was worth.

I say "supposedly" because the "float" weeks at Southcape Resort include all the weeks from mid-September until the end of May, and no "float" week owners actually own the week registered on the deed.  In fact, if you don't reserve a week during that period, you won't have one unless nobody else reserved the week you supposedly "own"!

Furthermore, Southcape I owners can't reserve weeks in Condo II and vice versa.  Southcape I owners can join Interval International while Southcape II owners can join RCI.  Anyone who owns a week in Southcape II may even have a different system of reserving float weeks.  That's something I've never investigated.

When I got through to Customer Service I was told that at that time the FAC didn't have an inventory of what weeks were available at Southcape or what kind of units they were.  I surmised that my days of getting a loft unit with washer/dryer and fireplace were over, and that my days of knowing more than 45 days in advance whether I would be able to enjoy a 4 day/3 day split week would also be over.

Overall I saw no benefit to converting to FAC but couldn't help but wonder how converting to FAC points would be to the benefit of Southcape Resort.


----------



## tombo

Sou13 said:


> Upon revisiting the points chart found at http://www.festivaadventureclub.com (password FAC19043) I discovered that I had been mistaken about the points value assigned to a "green" week at Southcape Resort.  It's 2100, which meant that I was being offered 1400 more points than my week supposedly was worth.
> 
> I say "supposedly" because the "float" weeks at Southcape Resort include all the weeks from mid-September until the end of May, and no "float" week owners actually own the week registered on the deed.  In fact, if you don't reserve a week during that period, you won't have one unless nobody else reserved the week you supposedly "own"!



This is a huge problem with points not based on a deeded week. They can be oversold and the values assigned to weeks can vary depending on the whim of the company or sales force. Since they aren't tied to a particular deed they are like monopoly money. 

For example, if you won't buy FAC and give up your deed for 1000 points. The salesman then offers you 3000 points for a little more money and you buy. Now you give Festiva your February week worth in their chart 1000 points (an example, not from the points chart) and you now have enough points to book 4th of July. Every time they do that they are overselling the summer weeks that they don't have access to (try to get Festiva to tell you how many summer weeks and units/weeks are in their points pool. They won't give you exact numbers because they control very few IMO). Most summer week owners will never let their weeks go for points because they already own a summer week.The FEW people who actually owned a summer week and got tricked into buying points will of course be expecting to reserve a summer week with their points every year, as will the February people who paid more money to buy enough points to reserve a summer week. Festiva created new summer points owners, they just didn't increase the number of weeks and units available to actually vacation in. People can't vacation in points, they vacation in rooms. 

Points salesmen will take 2 february weeks with value of 1000 each and sell you 2000 points. If you can book a summer week for 2000 points you have now placed 2 February weeks into the points pool that few people will want while making yourself a summer week owner on paper. In reality you have just reduced by one the number of points owners who will actually get to reserve a summer week. Once again the points people have given summer week access to another "member" without bothering to actually build or acquire an additional summer week. As they say around here, "That dog won't hunt".

It is a house of cards that is bound to fail at some point in the future. I have never been to any points sales presentation where I wasn't offered the option to buy as many points as I wanted. It has always made me wonder why they seem to have unlimited points for sale. In my opinion they have unlimited points for sale because they can manufacture points like the gov't prints money. 

If you go to a sales presentation for fixed weeks, they will tell you what they have available for sale. They will actually sell out of summer weeks and won't have any more to sell at some point. Points resorts will always sell you enough points to book you a summer week and assure you that with your smart purchase of X number of points, it won't ever be a problem to vacation there every summer. When they sell enough points to enough people, it will be a really big problem.


----------



## Carolinian

tombo said:


> I don't consider the relationship that we have a business relationship. I own at a resort, you manage it. I have purchased nothing from BRV or Festiva. It might get you by legally, but it might not. I am sure that you don't want to test the legality of giving a sales force my name address, phone number, and what I own in court, or to the AG. JMHO, but if someone files a complaint I will join them because you don't now, and never have had my permission to give any salesman, anywhere, any of my personal information.



As mere managers of a resort, they do not have any ownership rights in the list of members.  That belongs to the HOA, not management.  To me this is a clear abuse of their role as managers.  If the HOA did authorize them to use the list, there may also be problems there, especially if Festiva operatives were on the board and participated in that decision.  A board member has a fiduciary duty to both the resort and its members.  Festiva converting owners to points members is not in the interest of either, especially on the terms offered and with deceptive high pressure sales.  If the board is involved in their having the list, there may be legal relief against the board.


----------



## Carolinian

You have hit upon the very thing that caused points to lose all credibility on the OBX when Peppertree/Equivest started selling points when they had almost sold out Outer Banks Beach Club II.

They toured people at the Beach Club, and in the process told them how many points it would take for a summer week.  When they got around to the sale, they said ''Oh, by the way, the points will be deeded at another resort, but that doesn't matter because points are points''.  Of course, most summer weeks were already owned by weeks-based owners and never availible to points members, so there was never anything close to availibility for the demand they created for the few summer points weeks.  This made a lot of those buyers angry, and rightfully so.  Many of those people went elsewhere to buy a ''real week'' such as other resorts or the OBX's timeshare specialty realtor.  And many connected with those resorts and OBRR, the realtor, heard a lot of harsh words about the Peppertree bandits.

Points is really a big shell game where developers keep reselling the same inventory again and again.





tombo said:


> This is a huge problem with points not based on a deeded week. They can be oversold and the values assigned to weeks can vary depending on the whim of the company or sales force. Since they aren't tied to a particular deed they are like monopoly money.
> 
> For example, if you won't buy FAC and give up your deed for 1000 points. The salesman then offers you 3000 points for a little more money and you buy. Now you give Festiva your February week worth in their chart 1000 points (an example, not from the points chart) and you now have enough points to book 4th of July. Every time they do that they are overselling the summer weeks that they don't have access to (try to get Festiva to tell you how many summer weeks and units/weeks are in their points pool. They won't give you exact numbers because they control very few IMO). Most summer week owners will never let their weeks go for points because they already own a summer week.The FEW people who actually owned a summer week and got tricked into buying points will of course be expecting to reserve a summer week with their points every year, as will the February people who paid more money to buy enough points to reserve a summer week. Festiva created new summer points owners, they just didn't increase the number of weeks and units available to actually vacation in. People can't vacation in points, they vacation in rooms.
> 
> Points salesmen will take 2 february weeks with value of 1000 each and sell you 2000 points. If you can book a summer week for 2000 points you have now placed 2 February weeks into the points pool that few people will want while making yourself a summer week owner on paper. In reality you have just reduced by one the number of points owners who will actually get to reserve a summer week. Once again the points people have given summer week access to another "member" without bothering to actually build or acquire an additional summer week. As they say around here, "That dog won't hunt".
> 
> It is a house of cards that is bound to fail at some point in the future. I have never been to any points sales presentation where I wasn't offered the option to buy as many points as I wanted. It has always made me wonder why they seem to have unlimited points for sale. In my opinion they have unlimited points for sale because they can manufacture points like the gov't prints money.
> 
> If you go to a sales presentation for fixed weeks, they will tell you what they have available for sale. They will actually sell out of summer weeks and won't have any more to sell at some point. Points resorts will always sell you enough points to book you a summer week and assure you that with your smart purchase of X number of points, it won't ever be a problem to vacation there every summer. When they sell enough points to enough people, it will be a really big problem.


----------



## tombo

Carolinian said:


> As mere managers of a resort, they do not have any ownership rights in the list of members.  That belongs to the HOA, not management.  To me this is a clear abuse of their role as managers.  If the HOA did authorize them to use the list, there may also be problems there, especially if Festiva operatives were on the board and participated in that decision.  A board member has a fiduciary duty to both the resort and its members.  Festiva converting owners to points members is not in the interest of either, especially on the terms offered and with deceptive high pressure sales.  If the board is involved in their having the list, there may be legal relief against the board.



I feel that you are right, but I am not a lawyer. To use the business relationship argument seems far fetched unless you actually bought your week or points from Festiva.  If anyone on TUG or anywhere else mounts a group to challenge them on giving our personal information without our authorization, count me in. My gut feeling is we should win easily. Everyone please document when the salesmen call and what they say (I see that you own a week number....etc) in case we ever get the AG or a class action attorney to address this. 

Looking for a leader who owns at a Festiva resort, which they didn't purchase from Festiva, and who has been solicited without permission by Festiva. Any takers?


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## timeos2

*Any system can only deliver what is deposited*



Carolinian said:


> They toured people at the Beach Club, and in the process told them how many points it would take for a summer week.  When they got around to the sale, they said ''Oh, by the way, the points will be deeded at another resort, but that doesn't matter because points are points''.  Of course, most summer weeks were already owned by weeks-based owners and never availible to points members, so there was never anything close to availibility for the demand they created for the few summer points weeks.  This made a lot of those buyers angry, and rightfully so.  Many of those people went elsewhere to buy a ''real week'' such as other resorts or the OBX's timeshare specialty realtor.  And many connected with those resorts and OBRR, the realtor, heard a lot of harsh words about the Peppertree bandits.
> 
> Points is really a big shell game where developers keep reselling the same inventory again and again.



A poorly designed points system with limited resorts could be a big problem if the promises exceed the ability to deliver. But a well designed system with plenty of inventory can be far superior to an average week for week exchange. In high demand, seasonal areas its tough to beat a fixed ownership IF you want to only use/trade that time and are willing to pay a premium for it. If you simply want access to many resorts in various use times that include high demand, highly seasonal periods then a well operated, inventory rich points system will beat week for week trades every time. Neither can deliver what isn't in inventory but the set up of points brings in far more inventory than the less predictable week deposits can. Neither system is perfect but the points based ones tend to be far more open and predictable than the weeks based with all the secret manipulation of what is effectively points (trade value) behind the curtains.  Give me a nice fixed summer week if I can get it where I want in seasonal areas, a points system with 100's of internal resorts for general use and a great float use in a year round area and I've got all the best.  Hardly ever need to involve week trades in that portfolio.


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## tombo

timeos2 said:


> A poorly designed points system with limited resorts could be a big problem if the promises exceed the ability to deliver. But a well designed system with plenty of inventory can be far superior to an average week for week exchange. In high demand, seasonal areas its tough to beat a fixed ownership



Many Festiva resorts are beach locations (I think 16 out of 27 are beach locations) where summer weeks and spring break weeks are the only weeks of any value. Festiva acquires new resorts by  buying the unsold inventory and repossessed inventory at these resorts. We all know what inventory remains unsold or repossessed, the non summer,non Christmas/New Years, non spring break weeks. Now they start acquiring other weeks by getting owners to convert to points. Most people who have a fixed prime week will not convert, but through scare tactics, salesmanship, etc a few will. They can claim to have prime summer weeks in their inventory even if they only have 2 weeks, and they can claim to have a resort in their points program if they only have a very small per cent of the total resort inventory available for points members to access.

It isn't just a limited number of resorts that cause points owners problems, it is limited access at the resorts they list as part of the club that is the problem. Swapping a week you own in the RCI points program is a great way to access large availability because access to RCI points resorts and weeks is huge. Swapping your fixed or floating week with RCI does the same thing. To buy into a points program with limited resorts, and even worse limited inventory at most of the resorts they are associated with in the hopes of getting good internal trades is not even close to a good deal. 

Points are not just points


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## somerville

I was reviewing deed records for Festiva/Equivest transfers at Outer Banks Beach Club not long ago, and as Carolinian pointed out, very few are prime summer weeks.  Most are shoulder season or worse.  Of the handful of summer weeks I reviewed, about half appear to be in the units across the beach road.


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## Sou13

*I'm beginning to see the light?*



somerville said:


> I was reviewing deed records for Festiva/Equivest transfers at Outer Banks Beach Club not long ago, and as Carolinian pointed out, very few are prime summer weeks.  Most are shoulder season or worse.  Of the handful of summer weeks I reviewed, about half appear to be in the units across the beach road.



It begins to make sense.  If I owned two "green" weeks at Southcape, would Outfield Marketing ("OM") offer me 7000 points for the two weeks but at the same price ($3185)?

The upside of this offer would be that now I'd have enough points to cash in for a "red" week.

But who would be foolish enough to give up a "red" week?  While my MF for Festiva would be significantly lower than the nearly $2000 I'd owe Southcape for hanging on to my two "green" weeks, where would I find those "red" FAC weeks I'd been duped into believing I could find?

The MF argument doesn't work for OM in the case of "red" week Southcape owners because they pay the same $2000 for two weeks as "green" week owners have to pay, but they can do so much more with their weeks by hanging on to their deeds!


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## Carolinian

But by buying up those low season weeks, these points parasites will getting voting control of the HOA.  Then no telling what mischief they will be up to.

In South Africa, the Canary Islands, and the UK, there have been instances of points parasites using voting control of resort HOA's to either close and sell off the resort or change to all points and force weeks owners out.  The former example has been more common in South Africa, while the later is now going on by the DRI thugs at Wychnor Park timeshare in the UK.

Timeshare started with points with Hapimag, but then a French developer came out with the far superior weeks concept and that is what the market prefered.  The second wind of points came when a former loan shark in South Africa developed the points concept that is now being pushed across the industry.  Even RCI Points has its roots in one of the scammy SA points operations, CRI.




Sou13 said:


> It begins to make sense.  If I owned two "green" weeks at Southcape, would Outfield Marketing ("OM") offer me 7000 points for the two weeks but at the same price ($3185)?
> 
> The upside of this offer would be that now I'd have enough points to cash in for a "red" week.
> 
> But who would be foolish enough to give up a "red" week?  While my MF for Festiva would be significantly lower than the nearly $2000 I'd owe Southcape for hanging on to my two "green" weeks, where would I find those "red" FAC weeks I'd been duped into believing I could find?
> 
> The MF argument doesn't work for OM in the case of "red" week Southcape owners because they pay the same $2000 for two weeks as "green" week owners have to pay, but they can do so much more with their weeks by hanging on to their deeds!


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## e.bram

With all the TS owners scattered about it is very difficult to assemblr a posse to do what Carolinian says especially since lgal action costs. The only hope is that an owner is a lawyer willing to handle the case on a pro bono or contingency basis.


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## Carolinian

e.bram said:


> With all the TS owners scattered about it is very difficult to assemblr a posse to do what Carolinian says especially since lgal action costs. The only hope is that an owner is a lawyer willing to handle the case on a pro bono or contingency basis.



Often you will find an owner who is a lawyer. Often that is the key.  A concerned owners group at BIS-Duck that started with discussions around the swimming pool a few years ago looked like it going to take off, especially since one of those around the pool was an assistance district attorney, who could provide pro bono advice, although not represent them in court.  Unfortunately, just as the group was getting going his wife left him and she ended up with the timeshare in the property settlement, so he was out of the picture.

However, the concerned owners groups at all of the First Flight resorts hired their own attorneys.  One went all the way to the state supreme court, and the developer waived a white flag in the other three, turning over all unsold weeks to the HOA, and in the case of Ocean Villas II, also a six figure sum of cash.  He also bowed out of all management duties, of course.

With owners scattered all over, either snail mail, a chat board, or email is the way to communicate.  In many states, you might not have a right to obtain email addresses, so snail mail is often the necessary first step.


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## tombo

I have great news from the Southscape thread. Cliff Hagberg (Owner of 500 weeks and an apparent employer/associate of Outfield who sells Festiva) posted the following:

Originally Posted by NEVMSLLC  



NEVMSLLC said:


> I'm only here because there is one owner who seems to be keeping the discussion alive by rumor and innuendo despite our having spoken and communicated. It might surprise people to learn that I hear from new Festiva owners from Southcape and they love Festiva. but, then again, you probably think I'm lying about that as well. Oh well, all I can do is tell you truth. I can't make you believe it.
> So, Eric, come on down!!!
> 
> 
> Cliff
> [Quote edited to reflect edit of original post, at request of NEVMSLLC.  The edit removed NEVMSLLC's statement that Outfield had on several occasions refunded the purchase after the expiration of the rescission period. - Makai Guy, BBS Administrator]



I am not a lawyer but I would think that admitting that Outfield had cancelled memberships, given deeded weeks back, and refunded money after recission periods had expired would open the doors for anyone to cancel their contract. I was always told that in court if you did it for one you had to offer it to all. From my understanding they have set a precedent. Perhaps a lawyer could give their opinion. If I had personally been talked into giving up my deeded week anywhere to become a Festiva club member I would be contacting them immediatelly to get my week and my money back. Festive can't use the line so many developers use telling you that they can't deed your week back becase they have already sold it. Festiva doesn't sell the weeks, they become the owner and vote holder of the week. They can always give it back to you if you press them on it.

Perhaps everyone who owns at a Festiva acquired resort could spread the word to everyone you see while you are at the owner's meeting or by the pool that Outfield will cancel the contract, refund their money, and deed their week back to them if they ask them to. It might also be good for people to stand at the annual meeting and announce that FAC members who were previous owners at the resort could get their money and week back from Festiva by contacting Outfield like others have done successfully.

Any lawyers want to give their feelings on the precedant set by Outfield of cancelling contracts after the recission period has passed and whether that would open the option to all who have purchased under the same conditions. Even if all couldn't rescind, I would try very hard to rescind if I had given up a deeded voting week for some Festiva points that won't bring a single bid on e-bay. As Cliff said, if you don't want it, just call them and he is certain that they will cancel your membership. That is a wonderful thing to know.





The quote listed above was edited at the request of the op and is no longer anything like it originally was. The quote below is what I based my post on originally. Thanks to a TUGGER this quote was recovered from google archived pages.I request that TUG leave both quotes here as they are. The one below is the original post, and the quote at the top of the post is what the OP asked TUG to change it to after the OP edited it. 

I am re-entering the original below and it makes for an interesting read to compare the original to the edited version. I feel that having both quotes will preserve the integrity and readability of my post and still allow the OP to have his edited version represented on my post as well as his:



NEVMSLLC said:


> I'm only here because there is one owner who seems to be keeping the discussion alive by rumor and innuendo despite our having spoken and communicated.  Apparently that owner hasn't told everyone that that owner told me that they had purchased a membership in Festiva, had second thoughts and asked what I thought they should do.  I told them that if they didn't want it, call Outfield and I was certain they would cancel their membership, refund their money and deed their week back to them.  I understand that's exactly what happened.  Gee, Outfield and Festiva must be greedy robber barons too.  All of this happened after the recision period expired by the way.  I will also tell you that they are not the only ones that Outfield and Festiva did this for.
> So, Eric, come on down!!!
> 
> Cliff


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## tombo

The quote from Cliff above has been changed and his admission that Outfield has allowed contracts to be canceled by owner's request, refunded their money ,and deeded the weeks back to several owners has been edited out. This post will not make quite as much sense as it did with the original quote, but hopefully we can return to the original quotes and give hope to owners that they can get out of their Outfield sale even after the reccission period has passed.


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## e.bram

Not to worry about the deletion. if is ever goes to court he would have to admit he posted it or perjure himself. (which I doubt he would do)


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## Sou13

*So it's OK to bend the truth so long as it's not in court?*



e.bram said:


> Not to worry about the deletion. if is ever goes to court he would have to admit he posted it or perjure himself. (which I doubt he would do)



So it's OK to bend the truth so long as it's not in court?

By now, having been accused of "inuendo" and "untruths" and having my credibility and motives called into question by NEVMSLLC I've come to the conclusion that I have to take everything he posts with more than a grain of salt.


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## ecwinch

Am I the only one who thinks the only lawyer that advised Cliff (NEVMSLLC) to retract his statement was Festiva's lawyer? Bet that was an interesting call...

And Sou13 - I think what you said is the taught the first day of sales school. And they use a Gumby doll to demonstrate the fact.


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## tombo

e.bram said:


> Not to worry about the deletion. if is ever goes to court he would have to admit he posted it or perjure himself. (which I doubt he would do)



Too late to claim that he never said it. We found the original and reposted it.


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## e.bram

he can claim he never said it and go to jail.(perjury, ask Martha Stewart).


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## Carolinian

He also obviously did something highly unusual on these boards, ask a moderator to edit what had already been quoted.  Those lawyers must have told him to delete all traces, so this must be really sensitive.  I bet he was really taken to the woodshed on that one!


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## Sou13

*Outfield Marketing*

I propose that we start a new discussion on the subject of Outfield Marketing.  It's purpose would be to have a place for interval owners who have been contacted by Outfield Marketing post their experiences and opinions.  This might be the forum for it.  Does anyone see a need here?  If so, feel free!


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## wmauryd

*Some of us may also need to edit a line or two sometime.*

The recent discourse on this thread has changed direction and messages are indicating SC owners outrage with trustee X's anecdotal claims to have advised someone to ask for their money back... they followed his advice and did so... the deal was rescinded..he mentioned it in his tug site posts ....then subsequently went to attorneys and tug moderators to edit his earlier references. 

It's gone further into an imaginary court proceeding where the trustee perjures himself and goes to jail .

This thread will be most productive for all parties if we get off the personality and character defamation, based on imaginary scenarios. This person has offered to join the site discussion, read and respond. Let's extend some courtesy and mutual respect to all participants, whether or not we agree with all views. If we don't we'll be preaching to the choir very quickly.  Some of us may also need to edit a line or two sometime.

If I'm dissatisfied with a purchase or a service, and the business remedies the problem by rescinding the contract and refunding my money, that indicates integrity, not slime-hood, especially if it's after the normal rescindable period. It's a 'solution' not a 'problem'.  

If this solution sets a precedent that creates a so-called bank run by other similar customers, then it's multiple solutions.   If these remedies are SC's biggest problems, then it's time to celebrate that SC's problems are few and minor.  

In one recent post I asked if trustee X was ever a "single owner" and after it was posted, I realized it could be misconstrued, so I pressed the 'edit' button and changed it to "single-week owner," which better describes the meaning I intended to convey (my imaginary legal team was unavailable to advise me on this one). 

I vaguely recall a moderator asking why the need to edit-- replying honestly and the edit was made. All of us have the opportunity to edit, repair, delete our own messages.  Look for the edit button. Others have the right to copy and archive original versions. It's not a conspiracy.


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## tombo

wmauryd said:


> In one recent post I asked if trustee X was ever a "single owner" and after it was posted, I realized it could be misconstrued, so I pressed the 'edit' button and changed it to "single-week owner," which better describes the meaning I intended to convey (my imaginary legal team was unavailable to advise me on this one).
> 
> I vaguely recall a moderator asking why the need to edit-- replying honestly and the edit was made. All of us have the opportunity to edit, repair, delete our own messages.  Look for the edit button. Others have the right to copy and archive original versions. It's not a conspiracy.



No one here has a problem with you editing your own post within TUG's allowed timeframe. The problem comes when you want to edit my post containing your quote. If you need to consult an attorney about whether you should say something in your post or not, ask for the legal advice before you post it. Once you post it and someone copies your quote within their post, it is no longer yours to change.

I have no problem with trustee x trying to make a profit, that is what businesses that survive do. However if your trustee x is going to make other people improve his property with their money while not contributing any money himself towards improvements and upgrades, that is a problem. I wish I could buy part of a house to flip, make the other owners of the house pay 100% of the renovation costs, and then sell my portion for more money without having to contribute my share of the expenses to improve the value of the property. In addition as long as I own a portion of the house to sell, the other owners will pay 100% of the electricity, taxes, insurance, upkeep, and incidentals for not only their portion of the property, but they will pay my share too. If it take me a year or 20 years to sell, the other owners will always have to cover my share of the expenses while I pay nothing. When I sell the people that covered my expense for all of those years are not entitled to one penny of the proceeds from my sale. That is exactly what trustee x is doing and it isn't right. He should pay the same amount for each week he owns as owners pay because after all he is an OWNER of 500 weeks. If you own 10 weeks you have to pay assessments and annual MF's on each and every week. So should he.

Trustee x has placed himself and 2 others as trustees with no votes or input from the owners. He has assessed with no vote or input. He has raised MF's with no vote or input. If you read his comments about other resorts he has controlled, one (I thing Brewster Green) had 3 or 4 separate assessments in the span of a few years. Southscape owners might have just paid the first of many assessments that he will charge to get the resort renovated to a level that will allow him to sell his weeks for a premium price. If you don't mind being repeatedly assessed and paying ever increasing MF's with no vote or input (since he controls the mgt company and the trustees), then this might be a good deal for you. I personally would hate it. I like to have a vote in resorts I own. I like the board to be composed of owners, not developers. I want the board's main goal to be taking care of the owners, not maximizing sales profit for themselves.

If he is going to sell this resort as festiva, announce it in a newsletter. Extoll the virtues of Festiva and proudly proclaim the reasons he chose Festiva to associate with and why he chose outfield to sell festiva to owners. He dodges the issue and acts like he has nothing to do with Festiva or Outfield. We aren't stupid. He hired outfield because he owns the weeks and controls the board/trustees. Who else could have hired them? He had to have known that Outfield sold festiva exclusivelly when he hired Outfield. To act like he had nothing to do with it is an outright lie IMO.

Festiva is IMO a horrible organization with regards to the way they treat owners. They, like trustee x, take control and do what they want with no input from the owners. They renovate and upgrade so that they can charge more for their weeks they sell. They make owners mad and get many free "prime" weeks for them to sell that owners deed back to them once the assessments and MF's become ridiculous. Trustee x and Festiva can't be gotten rid of because they control the vote, the board, and the mgt companies. They are both like herpes IMO because you don't want it, you aren't quite sure how you got it, and you can't get rid of it.


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## Tia

well put tombo.


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## Sou13

*Welcome back, tombo!*

Welcome back, tombo!  I missed you yesterday!

I want to publicly thank you for your efforts in getting the administrators' and moderators' attention to the matter.  Live and learn!

As for myself, I've learned to copy and paste posts into notepad before they can be edited, especially when I'm replying to something and then come back the next day to find my reply edited as well!

Is anyone going to step up to the challenge and get a discussion going about Outfield Marketing?  This one was supposed to be about offers made by Outfield Marketing in exchange for converting to Festiva points for how much money?  We've learned a lot from FestivaRep here and hope to continue the discussion, but hasn't anyone been tendered an offer?


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## Sou13

*FestivaRep, where are you?*

The ARDA convention is over and we've been discussing cancelled contracts.  I found this:
How to Cancel My Timeshare Contract
Cancel timeshare outside your rescission period. We'll do it for you.
www.theownersadvocate.com


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## tombo

Sou13 said:


> The ARDA convention is over and we've been discussing cancelled contracts.  I found this:
> How to Cancel My Timeshare Contract
> Cancel timeshare outside your rescission period. We'll do it for you.
> www.theownersadvocate.com



If this is a non profit organization or if they have reasonably priced fees and a successful track record, it would be a great thing for owners with buyers remorse. If they charge expensive fees and are simply trying a new angle to fleece owners who have already been fleeced by the developer, then not a good thing. Any TUGGERS have any experience with this group? I looked but can't find how much they charge. 

I hate to be cynical, but after all of the bogus offers I have received from companies that want to sell my weeks for me from post card companies that in reality are nothing but an up front fee company that won't ever sell my week, I am a little skeptical. Hopefully they are legit and a good thing for buyers who have passed the recission period.


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## Jya-Ning

I got a cold call claimed that since Festiva take over, I will no longer be able to use my fix week as before, since it no longer a Peppertree.  And insist to have someone come to my house to help me out (I took it as conversion).  I say no, and they say they will talk to me the next time I will be in resort.

Since this look like a sale pitch to me, I send 3 mails one to Festiva, cc one to MD AG, cc one to NC AG and ask the company send me stuff in writing instead of try to do a sale pitch man to me.  I ask for public offering and the change they made to alert my original usage highlight.

Will see

Jya-Ning


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## tombo

Jya-Ning said:


> I got a cold call claimed that since Festiva take over, I will no longer be able to use my fix week as before, since it no longer a Peppertree.  And insist to have someone come to my house to help me out (I took it as conversion).  I say no, and they say they will talk to me the next time I will be in resort.
> 
> Since this look like a sale pitch to me, I send 3 mails one to Festiva, cc one to MD AG, cc one to NC AG and ask the company send me stuff in writing instead of try to do a sale pitch man to me.  I ask for public offering and the change they made to alert my original usage highlight.
> 
> Will see
> 
> Jya-Ning



Good job. It was a sales pitch and a lie. More people need to contact the Md and NC AG's so they will know what is happening. One or two complaints can seem like a couple of disgruntled owners. Hundreds of complaints alert them to potential problems. The next time I am contacted I am going to write down the dates, the lies tey tell me, and I too will report to the NC AG.

 The only way they can take away your right to use your fixed week is if you fall prey to their sales pitch and give them your week in exchange for Festiva points (which are virtually worthless IMO). If you do ever give them your week(s) and join their club, you will no longer be able to use your fixed week because it will irrevocably become their fixed week. Use your fixed week yourself, or if you want to travel to a resort other than yours trade your week through RCI or II.

By the way they will do more than talk to you when you are at the resort. The first time I was called in my room and told that I needed to attend an owner's update to find out about the changes occuring at my resort since Festiva came. I was told that if I didn't come I would not know about many changes at the resort which would affect my ownership. I showed up at 9 AM as asked, and they were mad that my wife wasn't there with me. I said I will explain the changes to her, you explain them to me. They refused to "update" me without my wife present. I was rudelly talked to and actually yelled at on my cell phone because my wife didn't come with me to the "Owner's update".  


The second time I stayed at the resort after festiva arrived I refused to answer the phone in the room because anyone I knew who needed to call me would call my cell phone. I refuse to be bothered on vacation by salesmen trying to sell me something I am not interested in buying. The phone rang mornings, nights, middays for several days. I called the front desk to see if they had tried to call me for any reason and they had not, they said it was Festiva calling me to update me. I finally just unplugged the phones so I wouldn't have to hear them ring anymore. One morning a couple of days later there was a knock on the door. A sales woman said they that had been callng me for days and never could get in touch with me. She started the sales pitch about why we needed to attend the update. I told her that I could buy what she was selling on e-bay for $1 and I was not interested. I told her not to call me again or knock on my door again. She started to argue and I shut the door on her. Do not do the owner's update because it is a sales pitch pure and simple. 

The next time I stay at my resort I think I am going to walk up to the sales dept after I check in and tell them that if I am bothered by them one time about updates that I will walk through the lobby every morning announcing that Festiva points are available for a dollar on e-bay at the top of my lungs. I will tell everyone I see at the pool and the cookouts that the points are worthless and warn all against giving up the weeks they own. Now that I think about it, I might do that whether they bother me or not to pay them back for their past bothersome sales tactics which interrupted my vacations.


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## Fig

Jya-Ning said:


> Since this look like a sale pitch to me, I send 3 mails one to Festiva, cc one to MD AG, cc one to NC AG and ask the company send me stuff in writing



Let us know how this works out, Jya-Ning. I like the fact that you are cc the attorney generals of your states. These sales pitches by Outfield Marketing on the behalf of Festiva that involve flying into a community and trying to scare as many people as possible into giving up their deeds and paying thousands of dollars to do so, all with no written documentation would not survive the light of day if the people who were being sold really were given a fair and balanced presentation. Maybe other people should chime in with letters to their attorney generals requesting that these sales pitches be put into writing so a consumer can evaluate the offer? If enough letters show up at a few attorney generals, this parasitic sales tactic might just get the light of day that it needs to end it.


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## Fig

tombo said:


> The next time I stay at my resort I think I am going to walk up to the sales dept after I check in and tell them that if I am bothered by them one time about updates that I will walk through the lobby every morning announcing that Festiva points are available for a dollar on e-bay at the top of my lungs. I will tell everyone I see at the pool and the cookouts that the points are worthless and warn all against giving up the weeks they own. Now that I think about it, I might do that whether they bother me or not to pay them back for their past bothersome sales tactics which interrupted my vacations.



Hey, Tombo...in the age of the Internet, why rely on pools and cookouts? Is there a tech savy Tugger out there who can put up a web page? It can be filled with factual accounts of people's dealings with Outfield Marketing and Festiva Adventure Club. Yes, I know, this subject shows up on forums like this, Trip Advisor, etc, and there is a Yahoo Group on it...but you have to join. This would be 100% about the this secret meeting sales tactic of Outfield Marketing trying to get you to give up your deed for thousands of dollars in exchange for Festiva Adventure Club points. This "sales tactic" really should be out in the open with personal accounts all organized in one area for referencing by folks who get their first phone call. 

Sou13...maybe you can post this to the Yahoo group to see if anyone there has interest in putting up a site? It could even be a blog, does not have to be elaborate...just a place to visit and post, but would have to be 100% about Festiva Adventure Club and Outfield Marketing increasing the chances that it would be the first site to pop up when people Googled Festiva Adventure Club or Outfield Marketing.


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## Jya-Ning

In case it happens, this is the address I found

To: Festiva Resort
One Vance Gap Road
Asheville, NC 28805

Cc: MD State Attorney General
Office of the Attorney General
200 St. Paul Place
Baltimore, MD 21202

NC State Attorney General
9001 Mail Service Center
Raleigh, NC 27699-9001


The MD is where I live.  You will need to find the state  AG you live and report to the AG there.  NC is where the resort exists.

I really don't mind the sale pitch.  But I would much prefer they tell me what is the gift, so if too less, I will not take it, instead trying to rob me out of my free gift.  And really, I like to see stuff in writing although I prefer it is signed and dated by them if they want to change the rule around.  

Will see  

Jya-Ning


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## Sou13

*Yahoo! group, anyone?*



Fig said:


> Sou13...maybe you can post this to the Yahoo group to see if anyone there has interest in putting up a site? It could even be a blog, does not have to be elaborate...just a place to visit and post, but would have to be 100% about Festiva Adventure Club and Outfield Marketing increasing the chances that it would be the first site to pop up when people Googled Festiva Adventure Club or Outfield Marketing.



Are you referring to the Equivest-PeppertreeOwners Yahoo! group?  I don't post there because I'm not an owner but joined the group in order to learn more about the horrors of the Festiva Adventure Club.  I'm not sure how to start a group that would attract members to join.  Perhaps someone who posts to TUG could offer advice?


----------



## tombo

Jya-Ning said:


> In case it happens, this is the address I found
> 
> To: Festiva Resort
> One Vance Gap Road
> Asheville, NC 28805
> 
> Cc: MD State Attorney General
> Office of the Attorney General
> 200 St. Paul Place
> Baltimore, MD 21202
> 
> NC State Attorney General
> 9001 Mail Service Center
> Raleigh, NC 27699-9001
> 
> 
> The MD is where I live.  You will need to find the state  AG you live and report to the AG there.  NC is where the resort exists.
> 
> I really don't mind the sale pitch.  But I would much prefer they tell me what is the gift, so if too less, I will not take it, instead trying to rob me out of my free gift.  And really, I like to see stuff in writing although I prefer it is signed and dated by them if they want to change the rule around.
> 
> Will see
> 
> Jya-Ning



Thanks for the AG addresses. As far as the gift for putting up with their sales pitch, as far as I know you don't get anything! For coming to the "update" at the resort I was not offered anything, not $75, not a free meal, nothing! For the phone calls to my home the offer was a discounted room rate in New Orleans to drive down and be updated. I guess I live too far from the sales reps to get them to come to my house. If anyone here was offered anything to sit through the sales lies, I would love to know what they offered.


----------



## Fig

Sou13 said:


> Are you referring to the Equivest-PeppertreeOwners Yahoo! group?  I don't post there because I'm not an owner but joined the group in order to learn more about the horrors of the Festiva Adventure Club.  I'm not sure how to start a group that would attract members to join.  Perhaps someone who posts to TUG could offer advice?



Not so much to start a new group as an informational website on the tactics of Outfield Marketing pressuring owners to give up a deed for in the ballpark of $3,000 and join Festiva Adventure Club, whose point system has been referred to as "worthless."  I've heard these meetings are billed as "informational about changes at a given resort""..."there is nothing to buy," etc, which seems horribly misleading when you read accounts at what really happens at these meetings. The fact that these meetings can't be held without both spouses present and no literature can be sent or left about the meetings, should be a red flag. Just thought if we tossed the idea out enough, there might be someone out there willing to put together an informational web page on the subject where comments can also be posted and we can bring these secrets into the light of day.


----------



## Sou13

*Try the search engine method*

I've been searching online for "Festiva Adventure Club" and found this:

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/440/RipOff0440457.htm

*Report: #440457 View Similar Reports Report: Festiva Management Group/Festiva Resorts/Festiva Adventure Club
Category: Property Management

Festiva Management Group/Festiva Resorts/Festiva Adventure Club Festiva timeshare is fraudulent. They lied and misrepresented the timeshare. We purchased based on fraud...nothing they said was true. Asheville North Carolina


Read how Ripoff Report saves consumers millions.

Rebuttal Box
Respond to this report!
Are you an owner, employee or ex-employee with either negative or positive information about the company or individual, or can you provide "insider information" on this company? 

Victim of this person/company?
Are you also a victim of the same company or individual? Want Justice? File a Rip-off Report, help other consumers to be educated and don´t let them get away with it!

    Festiva Management Group/Festiva Resorts/Festiva Adventure Club
Phone:  828-254-3378
Fax:  828-254-5297 
 One Vance Gap Road
Asheville, North Carolina, 28805
U.S.A.

Submitted: 4/3/2009 8:27:38 AM
Modified: 4/3/2009 8:28:00 AM  
Arlene
Bloomington, Indiana



Ripoff Report Verified Safe
On 11/8/08, after the initial timeshare presentation that went way past the 90 min. promised, the hard sell began. The timeshare did sound fantastic. Wonderful properties all over the world we would have access to using timeshare points. Also, fantastic prices on cruises and airfare. But, we were still unsure. It sounded too good to be true. The salesman said if we signed the contract, we would get a free 7 day cruise anywhere, anytime, any cruise ship. We have always wanted to cruise on Seabourn, but it's a luxury cruise line that costs over $12K. He told us, of course we could go on the Seabourn because they get wholesale prices. We felt better about signing when he told us we would have 7 days to cancel. We still found it too good to be true.

So, we signed the contract. We could not use an attorney because if we didn't sign that day, we would lose the great deal we were getting. We were purchasing another owners points because he was upgrading. We were also told us if down the road we decided we didn't want the timeshare, Festiva could easily sell our points as well as they keep escalating in value.

Needless to say, we soon found out it was all fraud. We didn't get a free cruise and the global properties were only available for less than a year. The cancellation policy was 5 days, not 7. We were told we could use the timeshare immediately...also a lie. We couldn't use it until Jan. 31,2009 after we paid the maintenance fee. We will never use this timeshare or give them another dime.

Arlene
Bloomington, Indiana
U.S.A.*


----------



## tombo

Festiva has come up with a new blog site:

http://festivaresorts.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/contest/

These are very savvy businessmen. They are getting tons of bad press on the web and there is nothing they can do about it. What they do instead is start their own blog where they can tout the joys of owning Festiva and post happy customer comments while never allowing anything negative to be said. How many Festiva employees are currently writing glowing reviews about Festiva to post on the blog? In the open forums where things can be discussed openly by all, you almost never read a good post. I bet this site will be different. Happy owners will come out of the woodwork to extoll the joys of Festiva ownership. Is there anyway that a blog could be called fictional reading? If so I am willing to bet that this will be much more fiction than fact.


----------



## Fig

tombo said:


> Festiva has come up with a new blog site:
> 
> http://festivaresorts.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/contest/
> 
> These are very savvy businessmen. They are getting tons of bad press on the web and there is nothing they can do about it. What they do instead is start their own blog where they can tout the joys of owning Festiva and post happy customer comments while never allowing anything negative to be said. How many Festiva employees are currently writing glowing reviews about Festiva to post on the blog? In the open forums where things can be discussed openly by all, you almost never read a good post. I bet this site will be different. Happy owners will come out of the woodwork to extoll the joys of Festiva ownership. Is there anyway that a blog could be called fictional reading? If so I am willing to bet that this will be much more fiction than fact.



Tombo, you or anyone can set up a blog with Wordpress...the virtual swimming pool idea. It can be about Festiva, Outfield Marketing, etc. I think it might get a few more hits and work its way up the Google listing if people posted their real experiences. That is the power of the Internet. Here's info on setting up a blog: http://wordpress.org/


----------



## Fig

*More fun with Festiva*

Maybe Festiva created the blog in the remote hopes people would land on their page instead of the many pages like this out there listing people's experiences with the company. I think a page like this gets a lot more hits as it is written by Festiva consumers. 

http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/festiva-resorts-c84042.html


----------



## tombo

Fig said:


> I think a page like this gets a lot more hits as it is written by Festiva consumers.
> 
> http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/festiva-resorts-c84042.html



None of these people are going to win Festiva's Photo and story contest.


----------



## Fig

tombo said:


> None of these people are going to win Festiva's Photo and story contest.



Oy, check this out...they are running a contest without even finalizing the prizes. 
-------------------------------------------
Ron Perkins said,April 20, 2009 at 2:43 pm

Festiva Vacation & Photo Contest:
May have overlooked; but, could not ascertain what the Grand Prize is?
( I couldn't find it either.)

festivaresorts said,

April 20, 2009 at 2:50 pm

The Grand Prize for each category will be a 7 night stay at a Festiva Resort. There will also be a prize for runners up in each category. Prize details are being finalized now, and they will be posted here soon!
----------------------------------------------------------

Hey, Festivarep, wherever you may be...let the folks at corporate know there are sweepstakes laws in each state that may have to be complied with when you run contests such as this. Prizes, rules, etc, probably shouldn't be cobbled together on the fly AFTER you launch a contest.

How might I know? I've sat in my share of boring meetings with corporate legal going over the laws of every state we ran a contest in. Not a legal opinion, just a heads up from someone who has been there.


----------



## Fig

tombo said:


> None of these people are going to win Festiva's Photo and story contest.



Looks like Festiva rep is very, very busy trying to put out Internet fires. Within hours of our posting the "Horrible Festiva Story" contest link, Tombo,
http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/festiva-resorts-c84042.html
the rep was on it. Look at the last entry.

"2 hours 29 minutes ago by   Festiva Rep    0 Votes  ....
We appreciate it when owners and guests contact us directly so that we can address the problem."

Now, if they could stop the practices that lead to these kinds of stories in the first place, maybe the stories on the Internet would be a tad more positive...just a thought.


----------



## Fig

*FestivaRep, here are some more Internet fires*

Here, you might want to follow up on these posts as well...I don't think they will be entering your Festiva Story contest either.

http://www.complaints.com/Festiva-M...-Festiva-Resorts-timeshare-points-207569.html

http://timesharetroubles.getpaidfrom.us/

Tombo, I have not come across any glowing reviews of Outfield Marketing yet or Festiva...quite the opposite...just wondering, have you?


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Fig said:


> Looks like Festiva rep is very, very busy trying to put out Internet fires. Within hours of our posting the "Horrible Festiva Story" contest link, Tombo,
> http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/festiva-resorts-c84042.html
> the rep was on it. Look at the last entry.
> 
> "2 hours 29 minutes ago by   Festiva Rep    0 Votes  ....
> We appreciate it when owners and guests contact us directly so that we can address the problem."
> 
> Now, if they could stop the practices that lead to these kinds of stories in the first place, maybe the stories on the Internet would be a tad more positive...just a thought.



It extremely likely Festiva is monitoring this thread. When you post a link to site such as complaints board, they simply follow your link.


----------



## Fig

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> It extremely likely Festiva is monitoring this thread.




Yes, I know. What's interesting is it takes someone outside of Festiva to point them to no small collection of complaints that have been sitting out on the Internet for all to look at for nearly a year now. So much for monitoring their image.


----------



## tombo

Fig said:


> Here, you might want to follow up on these posts as well...I don't think they will be entering your Festiva Story contest either.
> 
> http://www.complaints.com/Festiva-M...-Festiva-Resorts-timeshare-points-207569.html
> 
> http://timesharetroubles.getpaidfrom.us/
> 
> Tombo, I have not come across any glowing reviews of Outfield Marketing yet or Festiva...quite the opposite...just wondering, have you?



Still looking for a satisfied customer thread with no success. Festiva  somehow found 15 happy owner stories and put them on their new blog page under testimonials. I guess the few happy Festiva owners are all entering the Photo and Story contest hoping to win the unamed prizes.


----------



## Carolinian

tombo said:


> Still looking for a satisfied customer thread with no success. Festiva  somehow found 15 happy owner stories and put them on their new blog page under testimonials. I guess the few happy Festiva owners are all entering the Photo and Story contest hoping to win the unamed prizes.



Or they wrote 15 happy owner stories themselves.  I remember a Dillbert cartoon that was a riot on this subject.


----------



## ecwinch

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> It extremely likely Festiva is monitoring this thread. When you post a link to site such as complaints board, they simply follow your link.



While we can agree that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, I think we should give them credit for trying. Most developers do not even do that.


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> While we can agree that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, I think we should give them credit for trying. Most developers do not even do that.



The problem is their business model, and they are not trying to change that. They are trying to keep people on the net quiet and happy through answers that are mainly spin IMO. They try to convince owners that not having votes at their resorts is no big deal. They want the owners to trust Festiva completelly while Festiva manages the resort, decides how much MF's should be each year, and how much needs to be assessed at Festiva resorts without any owner input. Renovations are done at the whim and desire of Festiva with no bids for the renovations submitted to the owners for approval, and no input from owners on what needs to be renovated. No sold out resorts should have developer controlled boards because there is no one loking out for the folks that actually pay to upgrade and maintain the resort.

Festiva has some great resorts, but so far I have nothing great to say about Festiva.


----------



## FestivaRep

A few things:

1. We know the sweepstakes laws in all of the states where we run, and the contest we're doing complies with those, don't worry. Our legal team is very involved in making sure we comply.

2. The owner/guest testimonials on our blog are not made up or written by employees. Some companies may do that, but I assure you that we do not. They come directly from comment cards at the resorts, and e-mails and letters sent to Owner Services. There are nearly 60,000 members in Festiva, and I know that there are those of you out there who are not satisfied, but not everyone has had the experiences that you have, and believe it or not, we do have satisfied owners who use the program and reap the benefits to the fullest. The reason you don't see them posting much online is because they're satisfied. How often do you call, write or post on a forum about your cable company, cell phone service, etc. because you're happy with them and haven't had any problems? Typically those that do go out of their way to let us know they are happy are those who have worked in customer service and know that it's a thankless job, and while the satisfied customers may outnumber the disgruntled customers, it's the latter that you hear from the most.

3.  We have people who constantly monitor the complaints online and have been doing so for about two years, we did not 'learn' about them on this or any other member discussion board. We are well aware of them, we just don't feel like all of them warrant responses on a public forum. Many of the people who make those posts on complaint websites are contacted personally, including Arlene in Bloomington, Indiana (from the post copied and pasted from Complaints Board below). 

I'm sure my comments will get attacked and picked apart and misconstrued, but they are the facts. I'm not putting any 'corporate spin' on anything, I'm not currently (nor have I ever been) a salesperson (of any kind), I'm just putting this out there for those of you willing to listen, and I appreciate those of you who do.


----------



## Carolinian

Festiva Rep - I do not own at a resort you manage and would not.  I only own at resorts controlled by the members, not by a developer who has worn out his welcome.  At some of my resorts, the members have had to go to quite some lengths to kick those people out the door that they should have exited on their own.

There is absolutely no legitimate justification for impostion of a developer dictatorship instead of letting the members of a sold out resort democratically elect their HOA board which then hires and fires management and directs management in how to run the resort.  Festiva seems to want to run resorts like they are third world banana republics.


----------



## tombo

Carolinian said:


> Festiva Rep - I do not own at a resort you manage and would not.  I only own at resorts controlled by the members, not by a developer who has worn out his welcome.  At some of my resorts, the members have had to go to quite some lengths to kick those people out the door that they should have exited on their own.
> 
> There is absolutely no legitimate justification for impostion of a developer dictatorship instead of letting the members of a sold out resort democratically elect their HOA board which then hires and fires management and directs management in how to run the resort.  Festiva seems to want to run resorts like they are third world banana republics.



Boy do I agree!


----------



## tombo

Festiva Rep, you are very nice and very good at your job. You answer some questions for owners here and we are very appreciative.  That being said, I am sure that the PR people who work for Countryside Mortgage and AIG are great people too, but the fact that they are nice doesn't change the fact that their companies suck. Unless Festiva changes it's owner unfriendly policies you will never convince the majority of owners to like Festiva anymore than the PR people at AIG will convince the majority of Americans that the bonuses were needed to "retain key employees". AIG is probably the most hated company in the US, and Festiva is probably the second most hated timeshare company on the entire net (Festiva seems to be better liked than Westgate). You are a nice person, but you are working for a greedy company that could care less about owners at resorts it acquires.

You are employed by a company that is almost impossible to defend on line or in print. I understand that the economy is bad now and jobs are hard to come by, but I would strongly recommend changing companies as soon as you can find another employer. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Since Festiva has been sued (by the Missouri Atty Gen), is being sued (by owners at the Atrium), and from the sound of many here might be sued again in the future, they are obviously a bad company that owners don't like. No amount of PR skill and spin can change that.


----------



## Sou13

*How to get positive feedback*

I, too, would look for positive things to say in order to win some sort of prize (unless the prize is a week at the resort if it's a dump) but we're not getting any prizes here for reporting our negative experiences with Festiva and Outfield Marketing.

BTW I've given up on the idea of getting anyone to share their Outfield Marketing offers here, but the longer this discussion goes on the more unhappy Festiva members we find!


----------



## mimimay1

FestivaRep said:


> Actually the press release did not say anything about us 'buying' OBX I/II, it just said that a resort in St. Augustine was 'involved in the acquisition' which it was. From the press release, which can be found in the Press Room on our website:
> 
> _Resorts involved in the acquisition and previously owned by Peppertree Resorts are located in Wisconsin Dells, Wis., Branson, Mo., Gatlinburg, Tenn., Myrtle Beach, S.C., and St. Augustine, Fla.  Four North Carolina resort locations include Outer Banks, Atlantic Beach, Banner Elk and Maggie Valley.  The properties in Wisconsin Dells, Banner Elk and Atlantic Beach also include undeveloped land.  _



Hi Festiva Rep,

I recently bought Festiva Resort in August 2008 with 3,300 points and PAID IT IN FULL AMOUNT INCLUDING THE MAINTENANCE FEE. The transaction happened at Wachesaw Resort with the Sam branham the Director of sales.
When the receipt came out being charged w/ my Amex card it showed P12,605.....when the agreed price was US$12,000.00 FULLY PAID. I brought this to their attention,and a credit was given to me . I was a little suspicious about making this mistake. Then in the Purchase and Security Agreement and Truth-In-lending Disclosure,the real amount of US$12,210.00 was NOT disclose.......what was written was $12,605.00 which was NOT the amount the Paid for Festiva!  I was told that After 15 days that I can use my timeshare.....well,I was JERK as when I called to use it,I was told by yr Customer Service that I can only use Festiva by Jan 1 2009! WHY WOULD I PAY IN FULL AMOUNT IN AUG 2008 AND NOT BE ABLE TO USE IT RIGHT AWAY BUT WAIT UNTIL JAN OF 2009????  ON TOP OF THIS,I AM AGAIN BEING INVOICE FOR THE MAINTENANCE FEE WHICH I HAD NEGOTIATED TO BE INCLUDED IN MY us$12,210.00 WHEN i PAID fESTIVA IN FULL.

CAN YO TELL ME WHERE CAN I GET HOLD OF THE BOARD MEMEBRS OF FESTIVA BEFORE I TAKE THEM TO COURT???

tHANKS,

mILDRED mimimay1@aol.com


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## Tia

You might like to join this group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Equivest-PeppertreeOwners/?yguid=301889772

Festiva is in control of their resorts/points.


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## Jya-Ning

Jya-Ning said:


> Since this look like a sale pitch to me, I send 3 mails one to Festiva, cc one to MD AG, cc one to NC AG and ask the company send me stuff in writing instead of try to do a sale pitch man to me.  I ask for public offering and the change they made to alert my original usage highlight.
> 
> Will see
> 
> Jya-Ning



Got response from Maryland and Festiva.  I kind expect the result.   MD say they open a case for me for 30 days, but believe I will get response from Festiva and should be good.

Few days later, I got Festiva's letter, state the call is from their marketing department in regards to an informational meeting about Festiva Adventure Club (FAC), a point based membership.   But I am not required to convert to FAC, nor will their be changes to my existing ownership and usage.  And they will continue to honor my existing contract.  Signed by Deborah Shroyer Director of Customer Experience Dated 4/17/09.

I guess this is the end of this call.  Although I don't believe my contract has anything to do with them.  I believe my resort is managed by them, and that is the only relation.  I will keep the letter as record.  And continue enjoy my ownership.

At least the response is quick.

Jya-ning


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## Jya-Ning

Got NC's letter, ask the resort to provide me response in 10 business days.

Jya-Ning


----------



## Sou13

*Another Outfield Marketing Experience reported*

A Southcape owner has reported:

_Hello,

For what it is worth I was at Southcape recently and met with the NEVS (or Outfield Marketing) representative for the new Festiva points system being sold. This guy clearly stated that RCI was out and that the only choice would be II and Festiva. He went as far as to to show us the past two years of RCI catalogs to illustrate how more resorts are leaving RCI each year. Regarding units 32-55, it looks like that if they desire to participate in an exchange program they will have to join the Adventure Club provided by Festiva. As Sou13 indicated, this would mean converting their deed to a membership -- at a cost of approximately $3095.00 (3300 minus the 400 assessment if already paid, + 195 application/filing fee)._

Also,

_Just to expand on the identity of the gentleman we met with, he stated he worked for NEVS, however he did not have a business card indicating that. He did give us a generic business card belonging to Outfield Marketing LTD that only states the business name, not his or anyone else's name.
_http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84127&page=21

So it looks as though owners can't escape the $400 Special Assessment by converting to Festiva points after all!


----------



## Tia

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/video?id=6790741 

Is a news cast on Festiva, I don't see a date on it.


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, Tia!*

Thank you, Tia!  I posted the link on the Southcape Resort discussion.  It gives those who want to complain to the MA AG some hope.


----------



## Sou13

*Outfield Marketing Solicits Owners and Guests*

I've heard from a Southcape owner who stayed at the resort recently.  She reported that Outfield Marketing is contacting owners and guests on the inhouse telephones system.  I must have avoided such a call by requesting one when I was there in November!

This particular owner has three deeded float weeks, two in Condo I and one in Condo II, and had met with Greg Hughes in the fall.  A new marketer has replaced Mr. Hughes, who possibly had to be retrained?

So, Southcape owners and guests, beware of Outfield Marketing!  This owner doesn't even want to answer the telephone!

As for the offer, this owner didn't even get an offer to convert one of the three weeks.  Festiva wants all three!  Unfortunately, I didn't get to find out how much it would have cost to convert for how many points.  I should have asked!


----------



## tombo

I received a call Monday asking me to come for an informative weekend for only $99 I think. I asked themhow they got my information and they said it was from where I had previously talked to Festiva. I asked them what weeks i owned and they told me that they were only given limited information about their contacts and they didn't know. I am sure if I went that the salesman would know what I owned at Festiva, but it isn't worth the misery of 3 hours with them trying to shove Festiva down my throat to go and see what information they have on me. It sure isn't worth 2 nights in a motel for $99 to sit through the misery.


----------



## Carolinian

All timesharers need to beware.  If your HOA even thinks about hiring Festiva as its management, the members need to raise a firestorm of protest, and look into what procedures they may have to unseat and replace their HOA board members who may support such a disasterous proposal.  Don't let these points schemers get their foot in the door.  If Festiva is already in management, run a Concerned Owners slate against their supporters on your HOA board, and once you get control prohibit them from contacting your members on their rotten points schemes, and at the first opportunity, change management.


----------



## tombo

I was sitting here looking at my voting choices for Blue ridge Village Board of Directors. There are 2 choices. 

One is an owner and Board member since 1998. This candidate made me feel very good.  

The other is a board member since 2007 and works in Resort Development and Construction for Festiva resorts. I lost my warm and fuzzy feeling.  

I got my pen ready to vote for the owner so we can defeat the Festiva employee, and the ballott says "I vote for the following 2 nominees to serve on the board".  Heck these are the only 2 choices so I will have to vote for the Festiva employee to vote for the owner. If I don't vote for these 2 my choice is to abstain. How crooked of a ballot is this?


----------



## Tia

Guess you could just vote for just one and write your name in? Bet the one owner is good friends with Festiva people.  

This is why owners have to find each other online and work together, it is not easy.


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## ecwinch

Tia said:


> Guess you could just vote for just one and write your name in? Bet the one owner is good friends with Festiva people.
> 
> This is why owners have to find each other online and work together, it is not easy.



If allowed by the ballot, this is a great suggestion. You are essentially throwing away your vote rather than vote it for the developer.


----------



## Jya-Ning

Check one, If you want to serve, put your name in.
Send to the resort cc NC AG with  copy.  Ask the resort to count your as is.   And explain why you have to make exact 2 choices?

I will guess there is 2 Vacancies.

Jya-Ning


----------



## ChrisH

*Greg Hughes at Sandcastle Now*

Greg Hughes is at Sandcastle now - running the same show there.  He kept saying this is an exchange of weeks to points and not a SALE.  But every document says 'seller' and 'purchaser'.  Also got the same RCI and II are no longer going to affiliate with Sandcastle blah, blah, blah.  His speech totally misrepresents the paperwork.  PS you are only quaranteed your OWN week if you reserve it 'atleast 12 months but not more than 13 months' in advance.  And if you want your own 'week' you must pay the next years assessment with the 'reservation' - which will be estimated by the 'manager'.  If the manager estimates low, you will be billed later (?January) for the balance.  If the manager's estimate is too high - then they keep the overage and apply it to a 'future' assessment but 'it will NOT be returned to you.'
It's in the contract.


----------



## Carolinian

tombo said:


> I was sitting here looking at my voting choices for Blue ridge Village Board of Directors. There are 2 choices.
> 
> One is an owner and Board member since 1998. This candidate made me feel very good.
> 
> The other is a board member since 2007 and works in Resort Development and Construction for Festiva resorts. I lost my warm and fuzzy feeling.
> 
> I got my pen ready to vote for the owner so we can defeat the Festiva employee, and the ballott says "I vote for the following 2 nominees to serve on the board".  Heck these are the only 2 choices so I will have to vote for the Festiva employee to vote for the owner. If I don't vote for these 2 my choice is to abstain. How crooked of a ballot is this?



You need to form a Concerned Owners Group, solicit proxies of other members and throw the rascals out.  Most HOA's have a provision to oust sitting board members before their term is over.  A management member sitting on a board is a massive conflict of interest.  These people need to be ousted immediately.


----------



## Sou13

*Terms And Conditions 1-10*

*TERMS AND CONDITIONS*​
*1.* *DEFINITIONS:* 

Unless expressly indicated herein to the contrary or the context otherwise requires, the capitalized terms used herein shall have the meanings ascribed to them in the Declaration for Festiva Resorts Adventure Club (the *"Declaration") *and the By-laws of the Association (the *"By-Laws" *)

*2.* *PAYMENT OF PURCHASE PRICE:* 

Purchaser may pay for the Membership described herein in cash or by borrowing from Seller a portion of the purchase price (the purchase price is the amount set forth on line 1 of Page 1 hereof and is hereinafter called the *"Purchase Price")*).  If Purchaser borrows a portion of the Purchase Price from Seller, then Purchaser will be required to execute and deliver a Promissory Note (the *"Note"*) payable to the order of Seller in the amount of the unpaid balance of the Purchase Price, and grant the first priority Seller Security Interest (defined below) that secures the payment of the Note and encumbers Purchaser's Membership, as well as certain other documents and instruments which Seller, in its sole discretion, deems reasonably necessary or appropriate in order to secure Purchaser's payment of the Note. Purchaser will be subject to all of the terms, provisions, and conditions described and set forth in all such documents and instruments. 

If Purchaser requests purchase money financing, purchaser agrees to cooperate with all reasonable requests made by Seller in connection with the financing and Purchaser shall provide Seller upon request such financial information as Seller may from time to time reasonably request. 

In the event that Seller sends Purchaser any document or instrument for re-execution, Purchaser shall promptly re-execute same, cause his or her signature to be notarized (to the extent indicated), and return such document(s) and/or instrument(s) to Seller in accordance with Seller's written instructions. Purchaser's failure to do so for any reason within fifteen (15) calendar days following Purchaser's receipt thereof shall constitute a default hereunder, entitling Seller to exercise its available rights and remedies pursuant to Paragraph 12 hereof . 

*3.* *LEGALLY BINDING AGREEMENT:* 

This Agreement will become effective and legally binding upon both parties when signed by Purchaser and Seller and may not be amended except by a written instrument that is signed by both Seller and Purchaser. At the time Seller accepts this Agreement, Seller agrees to sell the Membership described herein to Purchaser, and Purchaser agrees to make all of the payments required to be made under this Agreement when due and to comply fully with all of the terms, provisions, and conditions hereof and of the Club Instruments. 

*4.* *DEPOSITS:* 

In compliance with all applicable state and local law, Purchaser's initial deposit and any subsequent payments made by Purchaser to Seller prior to Closing shall be delivered to and held in escrow by New England Vacation Services, LLC, the address of which is 135 E Hickory, Denton, Texas, 76201 (*"Escrow Agent"*).  Any and all interest that accrues on Purchaser's deposit and subsequent payments shall, except to the extent prohibited by law, be payable to and inure to the sole benefit of Seller and not be credited toward the Purchase Price. Escrow Agent shall hold all such deposits and other amounts until the expiration of Purchaser's cancellation period as described herein without such right of cancellation having been exercised by Purchaser. Upon presentation by Seller of an affidavit to the effect that such cancellation period has expired and Closing has occurred, or alternatively, that Purchaser has breached any term, provision, or condition hereof, Escrow Agent shall deliver any funds held on Purchaser's behalf, together with any interest that has accrued thereon, to Seller. Seller shall have no right to use any of the funds held by Escrow Agent until such funds have been delivered to Seller in accordance with the provisions hereof. 

*5.* *CLUB MEMBERSHIP PLAN:*

Purchaser shall be entitled to use and occupy Assigned Club Accommodations during such Use Period(s) every Calendar Year as shall properly have been reserved by Purchaser in accordance with the terms, provisions, and conditions of the Club Instruments, as they may be amended or restated from time to time. Because reservations are confirmed by the Manager on a first-come, first-served, and space-available basis, Purchaser is encouraged to make reservation requests as far in advance of the desired Use Period(s) as the Rules and Regulations permit in order to maximize the chances of obtaining confirmed reservations for the Use Period(s) of Purchaser's choice. Purchaser acknowledges that notwithstanding any provision of this Agreement or the By-laws, Purchaser will not have the guaranteed exclusive right to reserve, use, and occupy any particular Club Accommodation in any particular Component Site during any particular Use Period. 

The initial term of the Club shall be as set forth in Section 20.1 of the Declaration unless terminated sooner in the manner described in the Club Instruments. 

Purchaser will be entitled to make a reservation or use and occupy any Club Accommodation after Purchaser has timely paid any and all (i) amounts due Seller hereunder; (ii) Assessments, Personal Charges, and other amounts levied upon him or her and upon his or her Membership as described in part in Paragraph 7 below, and otherwise fully complied with all of the terms, provisions, and conditions of the Club Instruments. 

*6.* *ASSESSMENTS:*

Purchaser understands and agrees that in accordance with the provisions of the Club Instruments, Purchaser shall be responsible for his or her proportionate share of the Club Costs. The initial Standard Assessment shall be due and payable to the Association prior to Purchaser's use and occupancy of a Club Accommodation during any Use Period in the year in which Closing occurs. Subsequent Standard Assessments shall be due and payable on a calendar year basis at the time(s) and in the manner established from time to time by the Board, written notice of which shall be provided to each Member. The amount of Purchaser's Standard Assessment each year may vary and will be determined by the Board, pursuant to an annual budget that wIll be prepared by the Manager and approved by the Board.

If Purchaser's Initial Calendar Year, as set forth on Page 1 hereof, is the year following the year in which Closing occurs, then no Standard Assessment attributable to the current Calendar Year shall be due and payable by Purchaser. Except where Purchaser's Initial Calendar Year is not the Calendar Year in which Closing occurs, if Purchaser does not use and occupy a Club Accommodation for one (1) or more Use Periods In any given Calendar Year, Purchaser shall continue to be obligated to pay in full all Assessments levied against his or her Membership with respect to such Calendar Year. 

In addition to Standard Assessments, Purchaser understands and agrees that he or she will be responsible for the timely payment to the Association of any Special Assessments levied upon his or her Membership by the Association, as well as any Personal Charges that he or she incurs, all in accordance with the provisions of the Club Instruments. 

The Association may enforce Purchaser's obligation to pay the aforedescribed Assessments and Personal Changes in the manner set forth in this Agreement and in the applicable provisions of the Declaration and the By-laws. Unless and until all Assessments and other amounts that Purchaser owes the Association or Seller have first been paid in full, Purchaser shall not be entitled to reserve, use, or occupy any Club Accommodation or exercise any other rights, benefits, or privileges to which Purchaser would otherwise be entitled pursuant to the Club Instruments. 

*7.* *CLOSING:*

Except as otherwise provided by applicable law, for purposes of this Agreement, the term *"Closing"* shall mean that date following the expiration of Purchaser's cancellation period without such right having been exercised and as of which the parties hereto have properly executed and delivered all documents necessary to effect the transfer of the Membership to Purchaser and the payment of the Purchase Price to Seller, including but not limited to execution and delivery of this Agreement, and, if applicable, the Note. Upon Closing, Seller shall cause Purchaser to be entered as the owner of the Membership in the Register of Members. The estimated date of Closing is within two (2) days following the expiration of Purchaser's cancellation period identified above. The Processing Fee set forth on page 1 hereof is the amount of Closing costs payable by Purchaser. 

*8.** TITLE: *

Purchaser understands and acknowledges that the basis for the Membership is certain real property interests (called *"Resort Interests"*) in various resorts, hotels, and other vacation properties and that legal title and/or the Beneficial Use Rights appurtenant thereto is held in trust for the benefit of the Association and all Members, pursuant to a recorded Trust Agreement with Stewart Vacation Ownership/InterCity Escrow Services, the address of which is 6210 Stoneridge Mall Road, Suite 140, Pleasanton, CA, 94588 ("Trustee"). Seller has caused the Resort Interests to be conveyed to the Trustee, subject to the Trust Agreement and to the Declaration creating the Club, but otherwise free and clear of all blanket financial liens. 

*9.* *SECURITY INTERESTS:* 

Association's Securitv Interest. Purchaser, as debtor, hereby grants to the Association, as secured party, a security interest (the *"Association Security Interest"*) in the Collateral to secure Purchaser's timely paymerrt of Assessments and Personal Charges and Purchaser's performace under the Club Instruments. The Association Security Interest shall, at all times, be junior and subordinate to the Seller Security Interest. Solely for purposes of this Paragraph 9, the Association is an intended third party beneficiary of this Agreement and is entitled to enforce the Association Security Interest granted by Purchaser hereunder. 

Seller's Security Interest. If Seller is granting purchase money financing to Purchaser in connection with Purchaser's purchase of the Membership, then Purchaser, as debtor, hereby grants to Seller, as secured party, a purchase money security interest (the "Seller Security Interest") in the Membership and in all rights, benefits, and privileges appurtenant thereto as established in the Club Instruments and all rights, benefits, and privileges accruing thereto in the future, all replacements and additions to the foregoing, and all proceeds thereof (collectively, the "Collateral") to secure Purchaser's performance under the Note, this Agreement, and the Club Instruments. 

_FinancinaStatements._ Purchaser irrevocably authorizes Seller and the Association, at any time and from time to time, to file in the appropriate filing office in any Uniform Commercial Code jurisdiction initial financing statements and any amendments thereto that provide any other information required by Part 5 of Article 9 of the Uniform Commercial Code of any applicable state, or such other jurisdiction, for the sufficiency, or filing office acceptance of, any financing statement or amendment, including (i) Purchaser's name, address, and social security number; and (ii) if Purchaser is not an individual, Purchaser's type of organization and any organizational identification number issued to Purchaser. Purchaser shall furnish any such information in writing to Seller or the Association, as the case may be, within five (5) calendar days after Seller's or the Association's request therefor. Each Person identified as Purchaser in this Agreement represents and warrants to Seller and the Association that on the date of this Agreement, he or she is domiciled in the state identified below his or her signature on this Agreement. Each Person identified as a Purchaser in this Agreement shall notify Seller and the Association in writing if he or she changes his or her state of domicile within thirty (30) days after such change. Such notice shall identify the state of such person's new domicile and his or her residential address therein. 

*10.* *COMPLETION OF CONSTRUCTION:* 

All Club Accomodations have been constructed and are available for use by Members pursuant to the Club instruments.


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## Sou13

*Terms And Conditions 11-25*

*11.* *DEFAULT: *

Purchaser shall be in default under this Agreement if he or she fails to pay on time, keep any promise, or fulfill any agreement or obligation contained herein or in any of the documents or instruments referenced herein. In the event of a default by Purchaser, Purchaser shall not be entitled to reserve, use, or occupy any Club Accommodation or to exercise any other rights, benefits, or privileges appurtenant to his or her Membership. If Purchaser fails timely to perform any of Purchaser's obligations under the Note, this Agreement, or any of the Club Instruments prior to or after Closing, Purchaser shall be in default hereunder. Upon the occurrence of any such failure, Seller shall give Purchaser written notice thereof, and if Purchaser has not cured the applicable failure within ten (10) days after Seller gives such notice (if Purchaser has failed to pay money), or within thirty (30) days after Seller gives such notice (if Purchaser has failed to perform or observe any other term or provision of the Note, this Agreement, or any of the Club Instruments), Purchaser shall be in default under this Agreement, whereupon Seller (or its successor or assign) may (a) enforce the Seller Security Interest in accordance with Article 9 of the Uniform Commercial Code in effect; (b) terminate the Membership and retain all amounts previously paid by Purchaser hereunder as liquidated damages and not as a penalty; and/or (c) pursue any other remedy available to Seller, at law or in equity. 

If, for any reason, Seller is unable or fails to comply with the material provisions of this Agreement, then the sole obligation of Seller shall be to refund or cause Escrow Agent to refund (whichever is applicable) to Purchaser all payments previously made by Purchaser hereunder, without interest. Upon such refunds being made, this Agreement shall be deemed canceled, and all rights and obligations hereunder shall immediately terminate. 

*12.* *ASSOCIATION MEMBERSHIP: *

Upon Closing, Purchaser will automatically become a Member of the Association. Purchaser agrees to be subject to and to comply fully with the Association's Articles of Incorporation, By-laws, and such Rules and Regulations as the Board may promulgate, as each such document may properly be amended and/or restated from time to time.

*13.* *PURCHASER'S REPRESENTATIONS. WARRANTIES. AND ACKNOWLEDGMENTS:* 

Purchaser represents and warrants that the persons signing this Agreement have the legal capacity and are duly authorized to do so. Purchaser acknowledges that prior to or contemporaneously with signing this Agreement, Purchaser received, in addition to the contract and related documents, the Rules and Regulations of the Association, which is hereby incorporated herein by this reference, and Purchaser agrees to be strictly bound by, and to comply fully with, the terms, provisions, and conditions of such documents, as each may properly be amended or restated from time to time. Purchaser further acknowledges and represents that the Membership described herein is being purchased for Purchaser's personal use and not for its investment potential or any possible rent returns, tax advantages, depreciation, or other financial advantages and that no representations of any nature whatsoever have been made to Purchaser concerning investment potential, rent returns, tax advantages, depreciation, or other financial advantages by Seller or any of its salespersons or other agents. Purchaser understands that Seller has no resale or rental program for non-Seller owned Memberships and acknowledges that neither Seller nor any of its sales agents, employees, or other representatives has indicated that Purchaser will be assisted in the resale or rental of his or her Membership in the future. Purchaser represents that he or she does not intend to use any Club Accommodation as his or her principal residence. If Purchaser has chosen to finance a portion of the Purchase Price, then Purchaser acknowledges receipt of a completed Truth-in-lending Disclosure Statement, together with a copy of Seller's Privacy Policy, prior to executing this Agreement. Purchaser's acknowledgments set forth in this paragraph shall survive Closing. 

*14.* *EXCHANGE PROGRAM: *

Seller and the Association have entered into an affiliation agreement with an independent exchange company under which it has agreed to offer its reciprocal exchange services to Members of the Club. Purchaser's participation in such exchange program is voluntary and subject to the payment by Purchaser of such fees as are required from time to time by the exchange company for external exchange services. Seller makes no representations concerning the current or future services to be provided by such exchange company, the cost, continued availability, success, or possible failure of the exchange program, or the Association's relationship with the exchange company. Any representations made regarding the exchange company by its agents or employees or within the literature, brochures, or videos prepared or provided by the exchange company are solely the representations of the exchange company and should not be relied upon as being the representations of Seller. 

*15.* *RENEWAL RIGHTS:* 

Seller and Purchaser hereby agree that the Purchaser shall have the option to renew and extend the Membership Term set forth on page 1 hereof for an additional ten (10) years if Purchaser notifies the Club in writing on a date at least twelve (12) months, but no more than twenty-four (24) months prior to the expiration of Purchaser's Membership Term. This renewal option is only available to Member or a member of Member's immediate family. The cost to renew and extend will be equal to the Standard Assessment payable by Member as of the time Member renews or a comparable amount determined by the Club at such time.

*16.* *REFUND PRIVILEGE:* 

In the event that Purchaser cancels this Agreement during the five (5) calendar day cancellation period, not including Sunday if that is the fifth day, described herein, Seller will refund or cause Escrow Agent to refund (whichever is applicable) to Purchaser the total amount of any and all payments made by Purchaser, reduced by the proportion of any contract benefits the purchaser has actually received under the contract prior to the effective date of the cancellation. "Contract benefits" shall include, but not be limited to, the Exchange Directory and Leather Portfolio/Binder delivered to Purchaser at the point of sale. If these items are not returned before or upon cancellation, $79.00 shall be deducted from the refund. Purchaser must deliver written notice of such cancellation to NEVS at 135 E Hickory, Denton, Texas, 76201, United States of America. The cancellation will be effective upon the date postmarked. 

*17.* *WARRANTY LIMITATION: *

Except as otherwise expressly provided herein, or by applicable law, Seller makes no warranties, express or implied, of any type whatsoever regarding the Club or the Club Accommodations, including but not limited to warranties of habitability, merchantability, or fitness for a particular purpose. Purchaser irrevocably waives each of the foregoing warranties. Purchaser assumes all risk and liability from the use of the Club or Club Accommodations. 

*18.* *NO ORAL OR WRITTEN REPRESENTATIONS: *

Seller and Purchaser agree that this Agreement (including the documents and instruments incorporated herein by reference) embodies the entire agreement between them related to Purchaser's purchase and financing (if applicable) of the Membership and supersedes and replaces any and all prior negotiations, representations, agreements, and understandings, both oral and written, in connection therewith. 

*19.* *SURVIVAL OF AGREEMENT: ASSIGNMENT:*

This Agreement and the agreements and covenants herein set forth shall be binding upon and inure to the benefit of the parties hereto, their respective heirs, successors, assigns, and personal representatives, and the provisions of this Agreement shall survive the Closing and shall not be deemed merged into entry of Purchaser as owner of the Membership in the Register of Members. Purchaser's Membership cannot be sold, assigned, transferred, conveyed, or encumbered except in accordance with the terms, provisions, and conditions hereof and the other Club Instruments and in no event until Purchaser's Note is paid in full. Purchaser acknowledges that Seller has the right, in its sole discretion, to assign some or all of its rights and interests hereunder and, if applicable, under the Note. Purchaser may not assign any of his or her rights or interests hereunder. Purchaser's right to sell or otherwise transfer his or her Membership and the resulting update to the Register of Members are subject to prior approval by the Association and certain other requirements set forth in the Club Instruments.

*20.* *SEVERABILITY:*

The terms and provisions hereof shall be deemed independent and severable, and the invalidity of any one provision or portion thereof shall not affect the validity or enforceability of any other provision hereof. 

*21.* *ARBITRATION:* 

In the event of a dispute between Purchaser and Seller with respect to Seller's performance hereunder, the matter in question may, in Seller's sole discretion, be settled by arbitration in accordance with the commercial arbitration rules of the American Arbitration Association. If a matter in dispute is referred to arbitration, Purchaser and Seller shall each pay one-half (1/2) of the fees and expenses required to initiate the arbitration proceedings. The parties agree, however, that the costs and expenses of arbitration, including attorneys' fees, shall ultimately be borne as determined by the arbitrator. The parties further agree that any arbitration proceeding in connection with this Agreement shall be conducted in Lexington County, South Carolina, and that the decision of the arbitrator with respect to any such matter in dispute shall be final and binding and dispositive of the respective rights and obligations of the parties hereunder. 

*22.* *CHOICE OF STATE LAW AND FORUM: WAIVER OF JURY TRIAL:*

Except to the extent preempted by the laws of the United States of America, this Agreement shall be exclusively governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of South Carolina without regard to such jurisdiction's choice of law rules. Subject to Section 21 above, any legal action or proceeding arising out of or in any way relating to this Agreement shall only be brought in an appropriate court of competent jurisdiction sitting in Lexington County in the State of South Carolina and the parties hereto, on behalf of themselves and their respective successors and assigns, hereby irrevocably submit to the jurisdiction of any such court and agree that venue properly lies solely in such courts to the exclusion of all other judicial and non-judicial forums. EXCEPT AS OTHERWISE PROVIDED BY APPLICABLE LAW, SELLER, PURCHASER, AND ANY OTHER PERSON CLAIMING RIGHTS OR OBLIGATIONS BY, THROUGH, OR UNDER THIS AGREEMENT SHALL BE DEEMED TO HAVE WAIVED ANY RIGHT THEY MAY HAVE UNDER ANY APPLICABLE LAW TO A TRIAL BY JURY IN CONNECTION WITH ANY SUIT OR LEGAL PROCEEDING THAT MAY BE COMMENCED BY OR AGAINST ANY OF THE FOREGOING PERSONS CONCERNING THE INTERPRETATION, CONSTRUCTION, VALIDITY, ENFORCEMENT, OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS AGREEMENT OR ANY OF THE CLUB INSTRUMENTS. 

*23.* *NOTICES:* 

Any notice that either party hereto desires or is required to give the other party under this Agreement shall be in writing and shall be deemed to have been duly given upon the earlier to occur of (a) its actual receipt; (b) three (3) business days after being deposited in the United States mail as first class mail, postage prepaid; or (c) one (1) business day after being sent via overnight courier service such as FedEx, addressed to the applicable party at its address stated herein or at such other address as the receiving party has previously notified the giving party in the manner prescribed in this paragraph. If Purchaser consists of more than one (1) Person, then notice to any of them shall be deemed to constitute notice to all of them. Unless and until written notice of an alternative addressee and address is received by the other party, the last addressee and address as stated by written notice or as provided herein shall be deemed to continue in effect for all purposes hereunder. 

*24.* *RECORDATION:*

Purchaser shall receive a "Points Certificate" and acknowledges that this Agreement will not be recorded in the public records of any county or other jurisdiction. 

*25.* *HOLDER NOTICE:*

ANY HOLDER OF THIS CONSUMER CREDIT CONTRACT IS SUBJECT TO ALL CLAIMS AND DEFENSES WHICH THE DEBTOR COULD ASSERT AGAINST THE SELLER OF GOODS OR SERVICES OBTAINED PURSUANT HERETO OR WITH THE PROCEEDS HEREOF. RECOVERY HEREUNDER BY THE DEBTOR SHALL NOT EXCEED AMOUNTS PAID BY THE DEBTOR.


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## Sou13

*Terms And Conditions Miscellaneous*

*26.* *MISCELLANEOUS:* 

The captions used in this Agreement are for informational purposes only and do not amplify or limit in any way the provisions hereof. Purchaser is advised to read each and every paragraph very carefully and not just the captions alone. Whenever the context so requires, the use of any gender in this Agreement shall be deemed to include both genders, and the use of the singular shall be deemed to include the plural, and the plural shall be deemed to include the singular. Time is of the essence of this Agreement and of each of the terms, provisions, and conditions hereof. No term, provision, condition, restriction, agreement, covenant, or obligation contained herein shall be deemed to have been abrogated or waived by reason of any failure by a party hereto to enforce the same, irrespective of the number of violations or breaches thereof that may occur. The exercise of any right or remedy provided by law and/or the provisions of this Agreement shall not preclude the exercise of other consistent rights or remedies unless they are expressly precluded hereby. Purchaser hereby grants Seller the right, in its sole discretion, to correct any scrivener's, typographic, or clerical errors in connection with this Agreement or any documents or instruments related hereto, provided that no such correction adversely affects any rights, benefits, or privileges afforded to Purchaser hereunder or thereunder or materially alters any duties or obligations of Purchaser hereunder or thereunder. Any such corrections shall be initialed by an authorized representative of Seller and shall be legally binding upon Purchaser, together with its successors and assigns, even though not initialed or otherwise acknowledged by Purchaser.


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## Carolinian

Hopefully, the AG will shut down these points scams for screwing timeshare owners out of their weeks.  This scheme is very similar to ones being run by some very shady people in South Africa in terms of getting control of resorts.  In South Africa that has led to some of those schemes then selling off resorts or individual units in resorts for their own profit, and leaving the timesharers high and dry.  There is a lot of material on this on the Crimeshare site, but I am not sure where to find that now as OTE (Organization for Timeshare in Europe) has had a major campaign to shut it down as a result of some very embarassing material on OTE being posted there.

Any plan that pays you for your owned timeshare week in their own selfprinted points should be viewed as a scam and avoided.  One that uses high pressure sales, doubly so.  Any resort that lets such an operation onto their premises or gives them a membership list is violating their fiduciary duties to their members.

Hopefully the AG's can go after the individuals who give such groups membership lists and impose upon those individuals penalties so severe that it will deter others from doing this to their members.


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## Sou13

*Here's the problem at Southcape*

Here's the problem at Southcape:

Up until 1990 there were 5 members on the board of trustees.  Three were for Condo I, which was nearly sold out, and 2 were for Condo II where the trustees had "developer rights" as spelled out in the Master Deed.  But there is a separate Trust for Condo II and until 1990 Condo I and Condo II had their annual meetings on different dates.  In 1990 when Barth & Woods bought the developer rights from Sateriale and DePamphilis, the two associations met together and combined the management under Barth & Woods.  Sateriale and DePamphilis resigned and Barth & Woods took over as trustees for Condo II, but Condo I retained its original 3 trustees.

Someway, somehow, the board got reduced over the years to two trustees, Barth & Woods, and no votes were ever taken at annual meetings.  Back in 1984 the owners had the opportunity to elect board members, but no more of that under Barth & Woods, and nobody can figure out why.

When Barth & Woods sold the "developer rights" to NEVSLLC we were advised that we would be getting contacted by Outfield Marketing to advise us about the "changes" at Southcape.  What we learned is that Outfield Marketing is contracted by Festiva to sell us "conversions" to Festiva points.

Now here's the best part.  Outfield Marketing owns 75% of NEVSLLC and there are two principals of Outfield Marketing now serving on the board of trustees.  Previously there were only two, Barth & Woods, and the two principals were "appointed" according to Cliff Hagberg, the third board member and managing partner (25%) of NEVSLLC.

We've been advised that all of this is legal and all we can do is serve on an "advisory committee" of the trustees' choosing.


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## Sou13

*New approach*

When I was relaxing at Southcape over the Memorial Day weekend I was unable to find out what was showing on Comcast and went to the clubhouse to look at the TV listings in the local newspaper.  When a woman came in and sat down on the couch, Beverly came out from behind the desk and went over to talk to her.  The next thing I knew, she was calling me to come over and sit down across from her!  When I questioned why I should have to do that, she explained that she was making appointments for owners to go see "Frank" in "Owner Services" in Unit 32!  So now when you call (508) 477-4700 x 132 you get a message from "Frank" in the "Owner Services Department"!

So now Outfield Marketing is using deceptive means of getting owners to go talk to "Frank"!  What next?


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## Carolinian

If they are lying about the resorts RCI status to stampede owners into Festiva, that would seem to be a solid case of fraud and grounds for setting aside any transactions that were made on that basis, and perhaps recovering other monetary damages as well, including attorney fees.  I would list everyone who played a part or benefited as a defendant.  Someone really needs to talk to a local attorney who knows the ins and outs of local law about helping the victims escape this scam that is being perpetrated against them.

It is just appalling that these people would deliberately misrepresent a material fact to induce the victims to enter into a transaction that is against their interests.  That resort management is facilitating it raises questions about their fiduciary duties to the members.


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## tombo

Carolinian said:


> If they are lying about the resorts RCI status to stampede owners into Festiva, that would seem to be a solid case of fraud and grounds for setting aside any transactions that were made on that basis, and perhaps recovering other monetary damages as well, including attorney fees.  I would list everyone who played a part or benefited as a defendant.  Someone really needs to talk to a local attorney who knows the ins and outs of local law about helping the victims escape this scam that is being perpetrated against them.
> 
> It is just appalling that these people would deliberately misrepresent a material fact to induce the victims to enter into a transaction that is against their interests.  That resort management is facilitating it raises questions about their fiduciary duties to the members.



It is simply how they operate from what I have seen. Festiva buys enough inventory to take over the vote by voting in block and by using the proxies. Then they use lies and half truths to maximize the money they can make at the resorts they control.

Festiva purchased inventory and took over the HOA's and management at The Atrium, Church Street Inn, Southscape, and Blue Ridge Village. Every resort was operating fine when Festiva took over management since none were having the power shut off and none had employees paychecks bouncing. Once Festive took over they announced at every resort that the resorts had been operating at a loss for years so they were going to have to raise MF's. Then they announce that the resorts had no reserves so they were going to have to assess to get reserves (except for Blue Ridge Village where they announced that they would be able to start renovating using the reserves which will deplete them requiring an assessment to once again have reserves). Then they announce that RCI is requiring them to upgrade and renovate or they will lose their RCI affiliation

Everything I have seen Festiva do is use scare tactics to sell Festiva points, use scare tactics to raise MF's, use scare tactics to assess, and all of the scare tactics are used to put more money in Festiva's pocket. They become the mgt company for the resort. They raise MF's allowing them to pay the mgt company (themselves) more money. Festiva hires contractors to do renovations and upgrades with no bids or estimates being offered to owners to vote on. Before undertaking a a major renovation/upgrade, why would Festiva not get 3 sealed bids and present the bids to the owners to make everyone feel like they are working in the owner's best interests instead of Festiva's?. Not obtaining sealed bids gives Festiva great potential for monetary kickbacks, brother-in-law contractor deals, buying materials from friends at higher than available prices, etc costing owners money while enriching the Festiva Corporation. None of these activities make Festiva seem to be a good management company because Festiva can never operate a resort they acquire on the same annual MF's that the prior mgt companies kept the resorts operating on and they don't even do the basic things a good mgt company does like get several sealed bids on big construction projects. They have proven themselves to be poor managers of resorts with regards to cost containment and they have shown no regards for the wishes of owners at resorts they acquire.

Out of all of the scare tactics they use, the tactic that scares me the most is the fact that they appear to be greedy enough to continually raise MF's to the point where many owners will let their weeks go back to the resort. HOA owned units will be sold by Festiva but no MF's will be paid on those weeks.  Festiva will continue to assess and increase MF's to cover the shortfalls left by fewer and fewer paying owners to the point where there aren't enough paying owners to keep our resorts operating. Then Festiva might take their profits and walk away leaving us holding the bag. That is just one of many reasons to be scared by what Festiva does and says.

From what I have seen so far Festiva feels no duty to look out for anyone's financial interests but their own.


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## Sou13

*Intrusion on my enjoyment of my timeshare*

What really got to me about the above approach was that, as I recall, I was having a conversation with Beverly about Comcast when the woman came in and sat down on the couch.  Beverly acknowledged her but I didn't know who she was, and went back to the TV listings.  I observed that Beverly went out from behind the receptionists' area and walked over to say something to the woman, but didn't hear what she said.  What I did hear was that the woman was subsequently addressing me by my first name and asking me to come over to sit down across from her!

I balked at first but then decided to go over to find out what was going on.  She had all kinds of paperwork making it look as though she's been very busy booking appointments, even though we were the only people in the clubhouse besides Beverly the receptionist.  When she told me that she's been working at Southcape for only two weeks and that her job is to book owners for 15-minute appointments with "Frank" in "owners services" I commented that I've been a Southcape interval owner for more than 25 years and had never heard of "Frank" in "Owner Services"!  At some point she actually let it slip out of her mouth that "Frank" actually works for "Outfield Marketing" but since I wasn't wearing a wire I can't accurately quote what she said and since NEVMSLLC has been monitoring these discussions I hesitate to give him another opportunity to accuse me of posting "untruths" and "misrepresentations" on these boards.

One correction has to be made to tombo's post.  Festiva does not presently manage Southcape Resort.  However, more than 200 deeded Southcape interval owners have signed their deeds over to "Intercity Escrow Services" since November, 2008.  There are also nearly 1000 weeks not paying MFs or special assessments and if weeks are being sold as Cliff "capeguitarguy" Hagberg has told us both in the Southcape Resort discussion and at the "owners' meeting", where are the deeds for those weeks?


----------



## Sou13

*Another Outfield Marketing tale*

I've taken it upon myself to locate Southcape owners who have converted to Festiva points, to find out why they gave up their deeds.  Here's the first "converted" owner's tale:

An 85-year old Mattapoisett musician who bought a week in 1084 was married at the time.  When the marriage ended in divorce he acquired full title to Southcape but never used his week because the reason for owning it no longer fit his lifestyle.  However, he continued to pay MF and see the MFs increase with no benefit to him.

When the Outfield Marketing sales rep came to his home he was told that there were going to be renovations that deeded owners would have to finance.  He described an experience very similar to the one I had with Greg Hughes, onsite sales rep at Southcape at the time.  It was also similar to the experience described in the following "Rip-off Report" article:

I purchased a biannual floating week with Med Resorts in 1999 (read headache) that was given to AVR to manage. In 2003 an outfield Marketing rep came and told the story that AVR didnt know what to do with the biannuals so they wanted us to convert to the RCI points program. AVR had been difficult to deal with so $3500 solved that problem.

October 10th Celebrity Resorts sent out a letter detailing their effort to keep AVR afloat with 'a loss of approximately 900,000 per year'. It mentioned specal assassments of an unknown frequency and questioned continuance of service. They also said that many may not want or afford to assist and anyone wanting to may cancel membership now.

February 21st the 'immediate action required' letter arrived. Verbatum: 'The primary purpose of these meetings is to educate all members of the significant changes with the Clubs affiliations, the Special Assessment, and the effects these will have on your membership interests. At the meeting the representatives will be able to answer your individual questions and go over your membership options.' 

A seven night stay was offered as inducement, and two phone calls were made to assure attendance.

We arrived 1/2 hour early, was seated only 5 minutes before we were approached with what can only be described as a typical time share sales pressure. The first question was what our dues were. When we couldnt recall precisely and asked why, he said it mattered when we would be taken downstairs to be shown inventory on a computer. The next event was the rapid fire two columns of numbers on a piece of paper with how one was good and the other was bad. Being totally confused I stopped any foward momentun he had and demanded a little more information. 

Celebrity resorts was attempting to remove a points debt load from AVR so they look better in court. Explanation: AVR was not paying RCI for the points used in the program between them. RCI was going to stop honoring AVR members points contracts after 2008. Any money paid by the purchaser for points was going to be lost. AVR would only be able to let you select from their three resorts.

He started discussing equity in what we do own and we weren't sure. I asked if we could get our paperwork and come back later and we were told that it was today or nothing. A Florida statute was referenced. Celebrity would allow us to use the equity as a down payment on one of their units as long as we sign off AVR.

Consenting to look at what they had to offer, we were given one property to look at. I requested a slightly higher unit and was told that the next higher unit was too much to offer us. As it was our equity was 1/2 the remaining balance of the unit we were offered. With the prospect of losing the flexability we like with RCI, we went for it. The transaction was put on an RCI credit card opened just for this purchase. (Six months interest free, Woohoo!)

When we got home, we found annual units in the same resort for sale on the market for the same cost as we just added to our original investment. 

We are not happy campers.

Bill
Lindenwood, Illinois
U.S.A.​
When I asked him what made him decide to sign the contract he told me that it was because he saw it as the lesser of two evils.  Put out (he didn't recall how much) for the privilege of being able to walk away from timeshares whenever he stopped paying the annual MF, or continue to see ever-escalating Southcape MFs and special assessments.  Since he had been paying for a week he wasn't using, the option of putting out the price of joining a club he would probably never use seemed to be the lesser of two evils.

Now that he has talked it over with friends he wants to know how to get out of the contract.  He just so happens to have lawyers in the family who might be able to come up with some good advice for the rest of us who want to put an end to this slimy operation.


----------



## Sou13

*Where are all the happy Festiva converts?.*

I've been batting 1000 when it comes to finding unhappy Festiva converts.

The second one contacted me because a friend whom I found on a timeshares resale/rental site forwarded one of my messages to her.  Here's her sad tale:

_I was an owner at Southcape for many years but last November I was 'scared into" changing over to the Festiva point system.  I was told by their representative that if I didn't switch (and 97% of the owners were switching) I would be faced with larger and larger special assessments and fewer and fewer owners to pay it.  It was one of those deals that if you didn't sign on that day, it would cost twice as much in the future.  Is there anything being done for us or is it too late?_​
The third one happened to be in my local calling area and was happy to share his experience with me.  He has owned the 4th of July week for more than 20 years and used or traded his week through RCI every year.  But the Outfield Marketing rep came to his house and told him that he could expect $400 a year special assessments every year at Southcape, and since his MFs are already higher at Southcape than at two other RCI timeshares he owns, he like others got "strongarmed" into converting.  The OM rep told him that his first year he would not have to pay Festiva MFs which turned out to be $700 for a red week, but the rep must have been referring to 2008 because he was told that he could not get the paperwork to cash in on his points until he paid the 2009 MF!

When he looked over the choices of resorts in the club, none of them were places he wanted to go, and he's not happy with I.I.  Now he, too, wants to know whether he has any legal recourse against Festiva.  I gave him my email address and am waiting for him to email me so that I can add him to my "Concerned Southcape Interval Owners' elist.


----------



## Sou13

*Another unhappy convert found*

The fourth Southcape owner I found who converted to Festiva and lives within my local calling area gave up two weeks, one float and one summer.  These weeks were in her family since the Master Deed was registered with the Barnstable County Registry of Deeds.  Her father was even on the Board of Trustees!  But she, like the above unhappy converts, got "scared" into converting to Festiva.  She was happy to talk to me and gave me her email address so that I can update her on all the developments since we found out what we've learned about Festiva, Outfield Marketing, NEVS, Cliff Hagberg, etc., etc.  Her experience was similar to the others' in that she feels that she was deceived into converting and after looking over the contract and finding out that it's good for only 40 years, she's not happy!

Is anyone reading these posts as "happy" as Cliff Hagberg would have us to believe?


----------



## Carolinian

Sou13 said:


> Here's the problem at Southcape:
> 
> Up until 1990 there were 5 members on the board of trustees.  Three were for Condo I, which was nearly sold out, and 2 were for Condo II where the trustees had "developer rights" as spelled out in the Master Deed.  But there is a separate Trust for Condo II and until 1990 Condo I and Condo II had their annual meetings on different dates.  In 1990 when Barth & Woods bought the developer rights from Sateriale and DePamphilis, the two associations met together and combined the management under Barth & Woods.  Sateriale and DePamphilis resigned and Barth & Woods took over as trustees for Condo II, but Condo I retained its original 3 trustees.
> 
> Someway, somehow, the board got reduced over the years to two trustees, Barth & Woods, and no votes were ever taken at annual meetings.  Back in 1984 the owners had the opportunity to elect board members, but no more of that under Barth & Woods, and nobody can figure out why.
> 
> When Barth & Woods sold the "developer rights" to NEVSLLC we were advised that we would be getting contacted by Outfield Marketing to advise us about the "changes" at Southcape.  What we learned is that Outfield Marketing is contracted by Festiva to sell us "conversions" to Festiva points.
> 
> Now here's the best part.  Outfield Marketing owns 75% of NEVSLLC and there are two principals of Outfield Marketing now serving on the board of trustees.  Previously there were only two, Barth & Woods, and the two principals were "appointed" according to Cliff Hagberg, the third board member and managing partner (25%) of NEVSLLC.
> 
> We've been advised that all of this is legal and all we can do is serve on an "advisory committee" of the trustees' choosing.



You need your own attorney to look into whether this was legal.


----------



## Carolinian

Sou13 said:


> The fourth Southcape owner I found who converted to Festiva and lives within my local calling area gave up two weeks, one float and one summer.  These weeks were in her family since the Master Deed was registered with the Barnstable County Registry of Deeds.  Her father was even on the Board of Trustees!  But she, like the above unhappy converts, got "scared" into converting to Festiva.  She was happy to talk to me and gave me her email address so that I can update her on all the developments since we found out what we've learned about Festiva, Outfield Marketing, NEVS, Cliff Hagberg, etc., etc.  Her experience was similar to the others' in that she feels that she was deceived into converting and after looking over the contract and finding out that it's good for only 40 years, she's not happy!
> 
> Is anyone reading these posts as "happy" as Cliff Hagberg would have us to believe?



Contracts can be rescinded for fraud in the inducement (lying to get people to sign it).  You need to get a group of these people and go see the Consumer Protection Division of the state AG's office.  AG's rarely get involved when it is an individual or two, but when there is a common pattern involving a lot of people and it is ongoing, then they may swing into action.  It would be great if the state AG could help all of these folks get out of this points scam.  When a state AG takes up a consumer protection case, they have tools not availible to private attorneys.


----------



## Sou13

*No "untruths" or "misrepresentations" here*



Sou13 said:


> The fourth Southcape owner I found who converted to Festiva and lives within my local calling area gave up two weeks, one float and one summer.  These weeks were in her family since the Master Deed was registered with the Barnstable County Registry of Deeds.  Her father was even on the Board of Trustees!  But she, like the above unhappy converts, got "scared" into converting to Festiva.  She was happy to talk to me and gave me her email address so that I can update her on all the developments since we found out what we've learned about Festiva, Outfield Marketing, NEVS, Cliff Hagberg, etc., etc.  Her experience was similar to the others' in that she feels that she was deceived into converting and after looking over the contract and finding out that it's good for only 40 years, she's not happy!
> 
> Is anyone reading these posts as "happy" as Cliff Hagberg would have us to believe?


Just to make sure I hadn't inaccurately represented the above conversation, I called again.  When we discussed her parents' involvement she realized that they had probably bought their week around the time that I had bought mine.  A look at the abstract of the deeds confirmed that they had bought them after I bought mine.  

I encouraged her to read the "Southcape Resort" discussion and to register to post her own story, which I hope she will do.  A link to the discussion is found in my signature below.


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## Sou13

*Outfield Marketing is now "corralling" owners?*

I've received a recap of a week at Southcape from an owner:

_Check-in was fine but this was the first time we had ever been directed to go and talk to someone about our timeshare week.  I told them we were not interested and never would be and we weren't pushed at all.  But - they sure are coralling owners into meetings re Festiva!  They were also anxious to get the rest of our assessment which we paid.

The resort itself was in pretty good shape.  Our unit was clean and well maintained.  The lawns were being cut, the flower barrells had been planted.  Co-Op 2 (32 to 52) looked a little seedy and they seemed to be doing some exterior work on one of the buildings.

Still no Internet connection which is badly needed but then not having access limits owners contacting others to compare notes etc._


----------



## Sou13

Sou13 said:


> . . .


_The second one contacted me because a friend whom I found on a timeshares resale/rental site forwarded one of my messages to her. Here's her sad tale:

*I was an owner at Southcape for many years but last November I was 'scared into" changing over to the Festiva point system. I was told by their representative that if I didn't switch (and 97% of the owners were switching) I would be faced with larger and larger special assessments and fewer and fewer owners to pay it. It was one of those deals that if you didn't sign on that day, it would cost twice as much in the future. Is there anything being done for us or is it too late*http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=739768&highlight=owner+Southcape#post739768_​
From further email between us we learned that we live within two miles of each other and are now communicating via telephone.  Here are some more of the deceptive sales practices which caused her to panic and fall into the conversion trap:

The price of conversion was the same, $3185, but because her family had owned a summer week for more than 25 years, she got 4800 points, which were supposed to cost a yearly maintenance fee of $666.  (The actual MF for 2009 turned out to be over $700.)  But because the Outfield Marketing sales rep was not supposedly getting a commission for the conversion, it would cost her $6085 to convert in the future.  The really scary part was that he told her that if she stayed on as a deeded owner (which supposedly nearly nobody wants to do) she would be liable for a $600 Special Assessment in 2009 and could expect to be paying $1632 for combined MF and SA in 2010.

He told her that over 85% of deeded owners have converted to points and that nobody is selling deeded weeks anymore.

He also told her that she would be able to sell her points on EBay for 25 cents on the dollar, whatever that was supposed to mean.  He extolled the virtues of membership in Festiva while badmouthing RCI.

He neglected to tell her that she is no longer an owner at Southcape and will have to take whatever week is available there if she wants to stay at Southcape in the future.

Now that she has learned the facts and that there are a minimum number of summer weeks available for Festiva points, she wants to know what to do about being deceived into converting to Festiva points.


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## tombo

Sou13 said:


> _
> 
> The price of conversion was the same, $3185, but because her family had owned a summer week for more than 25 years, she got 4800 points, which were supposed to cost a yearly maintenance fee of $666.
> _​


_

They quoted MF's of $666?  666 is the number of the beast.  

I am not surprised that they would select that amount of 666 for MF's because they are evil and without morals or conscience IMO._​


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## Sou13

*Festiva settles with Equivest*

Are you aware that Festiva has put some sort of gag order on Equivest owners who have accepted their settlement?  They're even going so far as to retract all negative comments about Festiva!


----------



## Sou13

*Another Outfield Marketing tale*

I asked this Southcape owner to post this for himself but he does want it shared, so here it is:

_We've been owners since 1986, and have asked over the years for that info! We had our visit, last November, from that Festiva "pitch man" named King, the "hustler" gave his song and dance act until we started to ask questions. He did and said every thing he could to get his hands on our credit card. He told us that our condo fees were going up because of all the problems at Southcape, and if we don't join up with the other Festiva owners, the remaining condo owners would have to pay for those expensive improvements and costs. He actually became upset at our inferring that he was trying to sell us something! Can you believe that one!  He wanted our deed, $2,990,  plus a $195 filing fee and he would  give us 4,500 Festiva points!! And we would have to notify Festiva a year in advance if we were going to use our week!! There were very limited options from his Festiva book on other Cape sites and for that matter, any other place. He just wanted that credit card!  He was irritated at the thought that we were questioning him, particularly when I suggested that, just possibly, my week was worth 5,500 or even 6,000 points and I possibly should only have to pay him $1,500!!  We told him that we wanted more time to research his organization because we never heard of them. That was the last straw for him, he became "red faced" and asked if we didn't trust him!!  Ha,ha, that was it, we told him we are just wasting his and our time and the visit was over. I called the Southcape office about the visit, someone was supposed to get back to us, but never did. Anyway, that's my little story about Festiva._​
I'm not quite sure what info he's been trying to get.  This message was in reply to how to file a complaint with the AG!


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## Carolinian

I think I would also research the criminal law in Massachusetts.  In North Carolina, the crime of Obtaining Property by False Pretenses in a felony, and one that is fairly frequently prosecuted.  Your state may not have the same law exactly, but may have something close.  In this type of situation, a prosecutor may not be too keen on one isolated case, but if someone brought in a string of victims telling the same story where they could show a pattern, most of the prosecutors I have worked across the courtroom from would start salivating.  And depending on what evidence was developed on the role of others besides those directly involved, there may even be a chance to bring others in on the basis of conspiracy.  I cannot tell you Massachusetts criminal law, but I would suggest it might be an area for some research.





Sou13 said:


> _The second one contacted me because a friend whom I found on a timeshares resale/rental site forwarded one of my messages to her. Here's her sad tale:
> 
> *I was an owner at Southcape for many years but last November I was 'scared into" changing over to the Festiva point system. I was told by their representative that if I didn't switch (and 97% of the owners were switching) I would be faced with larger and larger special assessments and fewer and fewer owners to pay it. It was one of those deals that if you didn't sign on that day, it would cost twice as much in the future. Is there anything being done for us or is it too late*http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=739768&highlight=owner+Southcape#post739768_​
> From further email between us we learned that we live within two miles of each other and are now communicating via telephone.  Here are some more of the deceptive sales practices which caused her to panic and fall into the conversion trap:
> 
> The price of conversion was the same, $3185, but because her family had owned a summer week for more than 25 years, she got 4800 points, which were supposed to cost a yearly maintenance fee of $666.  (The actual MF for 2009 turned out to be over $700.)  But because the Outfield Marketing sales rep was not supposedly getting a commission for the conversion, it would cost her $6085 to convert in the future.  The really scary part was that he told her that if she stayed on as a deeded owner (which supposedly nearly nobody wants to do) she would be liable for a $600 Special Assessment in 2009 and could expect to be paying $1632 for combined MF and SA in 2010.
> 
> He told her that over 85% of deeded owners have converted to points and that nobody is selling deeded weeks anymore.
> 
> He also told her that she would be able to sell her points on EBay for 25 cents on the dollar, whatever that was supposed to mean.  He extolled the virtues of membership in Festiva while badmouthing RCI.
> 
> He neglected to tell her that she is no longer an owner at Southcape and will have to take whatever week is available there if she wants to stay at Southcape in the future.
> 
> Now that she has learned the facts and that there are a minimum number of summer weeks available for Festiva points, she wants to know what to do about being deceived into converting to Festiva points.


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## tombo

Get ready to get a bargain. 2600 Festiva points are being auctioned off on e-bay (auction number 350222137735 ). There are no bids yet but the seller knows how hard it is to sell Festiva points and has his auction running for 25 days. Surely someone will buy it in 25 days with a starting bid of $1. Well actually there will probably not be a single bid.


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## Sou13

*Another Outfield Marketing tale*

This was posted by a Sandcastle owner:

_Sandcastle Resorts Deeded Weeks vs Points 

During November 2008 we received an undated form letter at our home address titled ”Dear Sandcastle Owner”, from New England Vacation Services LLC. It was sent by Cliff Hagberg Managing General Partner of New England Vacation Management Services LLC. The letter also states that New England Vacation Services LLC has affiliated Sandcastle Resorts with one of the premier vacation companies in the country, Festiva Resorts, in addition to RCI which Sandcastle has always had, and is in the process of affiliation with Interval International. We subsequently received a call from a sales person from Outfield Marketing wanting to schedule an appointment at our home to discuss the new changes that were going to be made by the new owner “New England Vacation Services, LLC”. We requested he send us a written summary, he declined stating it could only be discussed in person. We declined.

We are deeded Time Share Owners at Sandcastle Resorts in Provincetown MA. This year we rented prior to starting our deeded weeks. The day we checked in we received a phone call from an on premise salesman from “Outfield Marketing”. We asked how they knew we were at Sandcastle, we didn’t get an answer but were scheduled to a sales meeting to change from deeded ownership to the point system. A meeting was scheduled with the salesman from Outfield Marketing. He went thru his sales pitch speaking and making notes on sheets of paper extremely fast to the point it was almost impossible to keep up with him. This consisted of the following:
1. Exchanging each deeded week and paying $ 1,000. plus recording fees of $ 195. each week For this we would receive 3,000 Festiva Resorts points for each week..This was a one time offer and the payment would increase if we did not act today. 
2. To purchase points outright, the minimum purchase is 1,800 points costing $ 6,000. The charge for each time share week consisting of 3,000 points, was $ 3,995. 
3. In addition he stated that our annual maintenance fees would increase dramatically if we chose to stay with our deeded weeks, there was no current budget and the deficit of $ 237,000. would soon exceed $ 300,000.
4. The point system with the Festiva Resorts, the maintenance fees would remain stable due to their large reserve for maintenance and increases would only be a nominal cost of living adjustment.
5. A benefit with the point system is if you give over 30 days notice to the Resort for a one week reservation it only costs you 1,900 points versus 3,000 points for less than 30 days notice.
6. After our deeded weeks were transferred to New England Vacation Services, they would be put into a Trust. There wasn’t a clear explanation what that meant. 
7. Some of his notes we could not decipher.
8. He gave us a few days grace period to sign and pay the contract. This was a one time offer, after the few days the cost of acquiring the points would increase.

It was alluded to but not stated that after the conversion to 3,000 points per week we would continue to have our usual weeks at Sandcastle Resorts each year without limitation. We didn’t get to ask our question “could the points required to stay at Sandcastle Resorts ever be increased over the current 3,000 points per week”?

The sales contract forms consisted of legal size sheets numbered 1 thru 8 (with two copies of page one), pages 9 thru 11 missing, letter size sheets numbered 12 thru 18 and unnumbered “Individual Membership Application”, all of which consist of the following pages:
Page
1. New England Vacation Services Festiva Adventure Club Membership Application.
2. New England Vacation Services/Festiva Resorts Adventure Club, Purchasing and Security Agreement and Truth-in-Lending Disclosures.
3 - 4 - 5 & 6 Terms and Conditions consisting of 26 items.
7. New England Vacation Services Promissory Note.
8. Festiva Resorts Adventure Club/NEVS Purchaser Acknowledgements.  Pages 9 thru 11 missing.
12. Untitled – Contract #. for credit card payment.
13. New England Vacation Services, LLC, Bank Authorization Agreement For Pre-Approved payments (ACH Debits).
14. New England Vacation Services, LLC, Credit Application and Agreement.
15. Festiva Resorts Privacy Disclosure.
16. NEVS/Festiva Resorts Adventure Club, Addendum to Purchaser Acknowledgment.
17. New England Vacation Services, LLC, Policy Regarding Your Financial Privacy.
18. Notice of Cancellation and unnumbered Membership Application.

Some questions for above forms:

Page 2 Equity upgrade from?? Term 40 years? Did not hear of this during meeting.
Page 8 Membership level. Non term points? These were not mentioned during meeting.
Page 5 – Item 15 Renewal rights for additional ten Years? Didn’t hear about this limitation!
“ 18 No oral or written statements are accepted as part of the contract, only the wordage which is contained within above documents is accepted. So the rep. can say or write anything on a sheet of paper to make the sale and if it isn’t contained within the above documents then the reps. statements are not valid..
Page 16 Par. 2 Membership does not include maintenance fees, but the purchase price does include the first year’s membership fees for Interval International? What, first I’ve heard of this! What is the annual membership after the first year? And what if your not interested in ”Interval International”.
Par. 3 Forms states salesman made no representation about increased maintenance fees. We were told by rep that maintenances fees would increase greatly. 
Par. 5 We did not have the opportunity to ask many questions.
“ 6 Rep. not well informed based on what he communicated to us, and no we were not satisfied with his sales pitch. AND What are the missing pages 9 thru 11?

That, added to the fast talking salesman and his zooming paper doodling to emphasize his fast talking points. When my wife attempted to ask him questions, he stated “who is running this meeting?” So for all of this we would get relieved of our deeded weeks and thousands of dollars for what benefit that was never made clear? What happens to the deeded weeks and who eventually ends up with them? A complaint letter was filed with MA Attorney General.

I suggest everyone that has had a bad experience file a written complaint to the MA Atty. General, that volume should ensure that an action will be taken. A current list of deeded owners and addresses is a must for us to have to ensure that all deeded owners are informed of the meeting date and to have sufficient votes to overcome the New England Vacation Services LLC votes. To anyone who has made a request for the list of deeded owners and was rejected, that is more than sufficient reason to file a written complaint to the MA Atty. General._​


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## Carolinian

For some of you who would like to share your thoughts about Festiva and the way it does business, I have started a thread on the UK timeshare site TimeshareTalk on Festiva on its ''Shark Alley'' board on disreputable timeshare operations and linked a couple of other TUG threads on specific resorts which are victims of Festiva at the moment.  For those who would like to share your thoughts on the Shark Alley board at TST on Festiva, the thread is at:

www.timesharetalk.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11239


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## Sou13

Sou13 said:


> Are you aware that Festiva has put some sort of gag order on Equivest owners who have accepted their settlement?  They're even going so far as to retract all negative comments about Festiva!



This came from an Equivest/Peppertree owner who seems to have come to some sort of confidential settlement with Festiva:

_I  understand your concern regarding the desire to resist takeover by Festiva.  I am a member of the Equivest/Peppertree Vacation Club Advisory Committee and have had the opportunity to talk to Festiva Management.  I have just two observations.

Nobody is holding a gun to your head to make the property convert to Festiva - it must be either a Board of Directors or membership decision.  Sounds to me like a minority are trying to fight it.  If it is the result of them 'populating' the BofD, that is a result of appathy on the part of owners not wanting to serve and allowing outsiders to 'sneak' in across time.

Once, and IF, they assume management control, you cannot use the word 'coerce' to address their encouragement to convert to Festiva's Adventure Club.  What you need to learn is the word "NO!!!".  They cannot MAKE you convert - they will try to sell you and sell you hard,  They may mislead, quote irroneous information, and browbeat you, but they cannot MAKE you convert.  I didn't convert and neither have about 5,300 other Equivest members.  We have the right to say no.

Richard_​


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## JackB62

*A points vs money question*

I am a Southcape interval owner and I'd like it if someone can advise me on a points system question.

If I have Festiva points and I book a week at Southcape, what does Southcape get in the form of rental cash?

Does NEVMS just say, "thanks, you owe us 500 points." Or, does Festiva have to give Southcape a $ amount for the week?


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## Bill4728

JackB62 said:


> I am a Southcape interval owner and I'd like it if someone can advise me on a points system question.
> 
> If I have Festiva points and I book a week at Southcape, what does Southcape get in the form of rental cash?
> 
> Does NEVMS just say, "thanks, you owe us 500 points." Or, does Festiva have to give Southcape a $ amount for the week?


Normally, with point systems, the system works like this:
- The owners in the point system, have their ownership rights transfered to the system. So when they reserve a week at one of the resorts, the systems uses one of the weeks that were transfered to them to fulfill the request. So Festiva wouldn't be renting a week from Southcape just using a week like they were the owner.  

**I'm not sure this is true for Festiva but it is true for most all point systems. 


PS Festiva can only allow reservations into a week which they have. So if all the summer week owners at the resorts say NO to festiva, then Festiva will not have any summer weeks and therefore can not allow a festiva owner to reserve a summer week.


----------



## tombo

Bill4728 said:


> Normally, with point systems, the system works like this:
> - The owners in the point system, have their ownership rights transfered to the system. So when they reserve a week at one of the resorts, the systems uses one of the weeks that were transfered to them to fulfill the request. So Festiva wouldn't be renting a week from Southcape just using a week like they were the owner.
> 
> **I'm not sure this is true for Festiva but it is true for most all point systems.
> 
> 
> PS Festiva can only allow reservations into a week which they have. So if all the summer week owners at the resorts say NO to festiva, then Festiva will not have any summer weeks and therefore can not allow a festiva owner to reserve a summer week.



Bill's explanation is how it works at Festiva resorts. Festiva works the same way as other points systems. Festiva has very few prime summer weeks in their inventory because their points come mainly from buying unsold/repossessed inventory at existing resorts. Ver few owners give up prime summer weeks for points, so it will be hard to trade for a prime week using Festiva points. The resorts like wyndham who build their own resorts have 100%o of the resort's inventory in points so you can trade for prime weeks fairly easily if you own enough points. At Southscape very few of the summer weeks owners will trade their prime fixed summer week for points that would only give them a slim chance of ever getting to stay there for that week ever again, and the few that do swap their weeks and $3000 for Festiva points will be absolutelly sick that they did so.

Do no buy Festiva points. They have very limited prime season inventory at most Festiva affiliated resorts and they are selling points to new members constantly using underlying weeks that are almost useless. They get these weeks for free often from the resorts repo's and from deed backs. If 500 people join Festiva and 480 of the weeks underlying the points are off season weeks, there end up being 20 happy Festiva points members and 480 mad members. I own a prime summer week at Blue Ridge Village, and I WOULD NEVER let Festiva have my week for points even if they gave me points and $2000 cash. I might sell my week for $2000 cash but I would never allow myself to be obligated to pay Festiva annual MF's on points that are almost worthless, that you could rarely exchange for a prime week, and that you could probably never sell. 

Don't even schedule a meeting with a Festiva sales rep because as many can attest to here, you will probably be told nothing but lies, and you will be seriously pressured to give up your valuable deeded week for some worthless points.


----------



## tombo

*TV News clip about Festiva*

The CEO of Festiva says this has been a wake up call that they need to train their sales staff better. What a joke. I guess being sued and settling with the Missouri AG for false and misleading sales tactics wasn't enough of a wake up call. The CEO of Festiva told this reporter that Festiva no longer outsources it's sales. Either Festiva owns Outfield Mktg or they are outsourcing their sales as they did before, and using some of the the same sales people that they used in Missouri. Spin, lies, more spin, and more lies is all you can get out of anyone associated with Festiva IMO.

Do not buy Festiva points and do not swap your deeded week for Festiva points. If you do you will be forever sorry, just as the man in this news story is.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/abc11_investigates&id=6789555


----------



## mweinberg

tombo said:


> The CEO of Festiva says this has been a wake up call that they need to train their sales staff better. What a joke. I guess being sued and settling with the Missouri AG for false and misleading sales tactics wasn't enough of a wake up call. The CEO of Festiva told this reporter that Festiva no longer outsources it's sales. Either Festiva owns Outfield Mktg or they are outsourcing their sales as they did before, and using some of the the same sales people that they used in Missouri. Spin, lies, more spin, and more lies is all you can get out of anyone associated with Festiva IMO.
> 
> Do not buy Festiva points and do not swap your deeded week for Festiva points. If you do you will be forever sorry, just as the man in this news story is.
> 
> http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/abc11_investigates&id=6789555



Tombo,

Thanks for the link; that's certainly an interesting story.  I have contacted the reporter to congratulate him on his coverage and to apprise him of my own experiences as an owner at the Sandcastle.  If anyone else would like to share their experiences with him, his email address is <steve.daniels@abc11mail.com>.


----------



## bull2671

Good morning,

I have spent this evening reading all the posts of the Festiva take over and am a bit concerned now since we signed our 2 bedroom at the Blue Ridge
 (4th of July week) for 5,200 points at a points conersion price of $3k for the Adventure Club just this afternoon. We were told that RCI would not be accepting our week as of January 2010 and that II would be the exclusive exchange company for this property and only as a points resort. Otherwise, our only option would be to use it on the deeded week, if we did not conver to the Adventure Club.

We have never traveled to the property, but have enjoyed the trading power it gives us under the RCI points system as well as the II system as a week. We had bought it initially to travel for that specific week, but have not done so as of yet.

We have a 5 days to rescind and I am leaning towards this after reading the various posts, but wondered about the advantages of getting 2  1/2  weeks of vacation on the points allotted to my week. Has anyone converted and enjoyed the benefits of that conversion or have they wished they had remained deeded? 

 Any assistance that a Tug member can provide that has converted or is familiar with the "in-home" Outfield Marketing presentation would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## tombo

bull2671 said:


> Good morning,
> 
> I have spent this evening reading all the posts of the Festiva take over and am a bit concerned now since we signed our 2 bedroom at the Blue Ridge
> (4th of July week) for 5,200 points at a points conersion price of $3k for the Adventure Club just this afternoon. We were told that RCI would not be accepting our week as of January 2010 and that II would be the exclusive exchange company for this property and only as a points resort. Otherwise, our only option would be to use it on the deeded week, if we did not conver to the Adventure Club.
> 
> We have never traveled to the property, but have enjoyed the trading power it gives us under the RCI points system as well as the II system as a week. We had bought it initially to travel for that specific week, but have not done so as of yet.
> 
> We have a 5 days to rescind and I am leaning towards this after reading the various posts, but wondered about the advantages of getting 2  1/2  weeks of vacation on the points allotted to my week. Has anyone converted and enjoyed the benefits of that conversion or have they wished they had remained deeded?
> 
> Any assistance that a Tug member can provide that has converted or is familiar with the "in-home" Outfield Marketing presentation would be greatly appreciated.



RESCIND NOW!!!!!! I also own a 2 bed room 4th of July week and it trades GREAT with RCI and IT WILL CONTINUE TO TRADE GREAT WITH RCI!!!!  THEY LIED TO YOU!!!! We are still and probably always will be associated with RCI. Festiva has to be excited to get your money and to get their hands on a 4th of July week. If you get Festiva points you will never be ale to stay at Blue Ridge Village on the 4th because every points member will be fighting for your week since you might be the only 4th of July owner who let a great week like that go for some worthless points. Keep your week to visit or trade with RCI. RESCIND NOW!!! They will try anything to stop you from rescinding. Cross your T's and dot your I's.

They have a wonderful fireworks display every 4th at the resort by the lake. You don't even have to leave to see great fireworks. This is a great resort but FESTIVA is a horrible company IMO.

 Follow the directions on the agreement to rescind. Make sure to send your recission letter certified mail with receipt required and make copies of the recission letter and the envelope ypu mailed it in. Some here can help ypou on how to rescind because i have never personally rescinded a week.

The Festiva points are WORTHLESS!!!! You have a great week. Keep it and RESCIND NOW!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## tombo

Just to see how worthless these points are, here is an e-bay action that has no bids and probably will not receive a bid. I have seen a lot of Festiva points be listed multiple times with no bids because they are worthless resale. If you feel that you must have some Festiva points, buy these for a dollar. I wouldn't take Festiva points if you paid me to take them because you can't use them for any prime weeks (like the 4th) unless you are very lcky, and you have to pay them MF's each year.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...RRENCY=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_fvi=1&_rdc=1


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## bull2671

Tombo,

Thank you I have sent the leather binder back with all the required information today via certified mail. 

After looking into a few of the websites related to Adventure Club we decided that we are better off staying with the great week we have. We can always go there for 4th of July if no exchange were available anymore via either of the exchanges.  

Thank you.


----------



## Sou13

*Did you get anything for your trouble?*

Were you offered any kind of "reward" for attending the presentation?  Was it worth what it cost to return the binder, etc.?


----------



## bull2671

*Outfield Marketing came to my home*

Soul,

A couple came together to my HOME from Outfield Marketing. They provided all the information regarding the conversion of points and how by January 2010 my weeks would no longer trade as a week under the exchanges, but as points through the Adventure Club membership and only through II since they supposedly held the exclusive right to the resort. It  appears to be  phrased that way in the agreement as well. I decided to accept the offer (contingent on my research) since I had a 5 day rescind period. 

In the end, I did not receive anything other than the developer's discount of $3,185 vs. $6k for the Adventure Club membership. Since the presentation included a leather binder with the II membership book, all this had to be returned at a cost for me of $48 for certified next day mail.  If I did not return the leather binder and II book, $79 would be deducted from my deposit. 

They stated that many weeks timeshare companies are converting to points and I would eventually have to do it at a higher cost for this one and perhaps any others I own.

I guess I will take my chances from now on. Thankfully most of my resorts/ weeks would rent well should I happen not to use the actualize week. 

Hopes this information may be of help to other Tuggers.


----------



## tombo

bull2671 said:


> Soul,
> 
> A couple came together to my HOME from Outfield Marketing. They provided all the information regarding the conversion of points and how by January 2010 my weeks would no longer trade as a week under the exchanges, but as points through the Adventure Club membership and only through II since they supposedly held the exclusive right to the resort. It  appears to be  phrased that way in the agreement as well. I decided to accept the offer (contingent on my research) since I had a 5 day rescind period.
> 
> In the end, I did not receive anything other than the developer's discount of $3,185 vs. $6k for the Adventure Club membership. Since the presentation included a leather binder with the II membership book, all this had to be returned at a cost for me of $48 for certified next day mail.  If I did not return the leather binder and II book, $79 would be deducted from my deposit.
> 
> They stated that many weeks timeshare companies are converting to points and I would eventually have to do it at a higher cost for this one and perhaps any others I own.
> 
> I guess I will take my chances from now on. Thankfully most of my resorts/ weeks would rent well should I happen not to use the actualize week.
> 
> Hopes this information may be of help to other Tuggers.



They came to your home and lied to you. As long as you don't swap to Festiva points you can continue to exchange YOUR WEEK with RCI or II, depending on who you are a member with. Festiva POINTS only exchange with II. On top of charging you $3100 to steal a week you own, they only gave you 5200 worthless Festiva points for your $3100 and prime 2 bed 2 bath summer week. To get an idea of how bad you were being taken look at this e-bay ad and see how many Festiva points it takes to stay in 2 bed room prime summer weeks. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...RRENCY=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_fvi=1&_rdc=1 Except for Branson and Orlando, 5200 points will not get you a week in a 2 bed 4th of july week at any Festiva resort listed in this ad. What a deal!!

Many timeshare companies are turning to points because they can charge owners more money for something they already own. It is a scam. The deal they offered you for $3185 was the usual price. They always tell you that you are getting a heck of a deal for $3185 ( they claim that it is usually $6000 or more), and they always tell you that if you don't get it right now that you won't be able to get it for that special price ever again. The reality is that they know if they let you think about it there is almost zero chance that you will ever want to get the points. Be glad you found some web sites warning you before it was too late.

You will never have to swap to points because you own your week. They can't take away what you own. If you look at II's demand chart, week 27 is the highest demand of all 52 weeks except for week 40 and a tie for week 41 since those are the prime leaf changing weeks in the mountains.  The next highest demand weeks are weeks 26,28,29,(prime summer weeks) and 42 (the final leaf season week). You own as good as there is at the resort, and it will trade like it with RCI for many ears to come. http://www.intervalworld.com/web/cs?a=1503&resortCode=BRV&parentResortCode=BRV  Go to this site and click on the travel demand index in the blue on the right to see the annual demand based on the individual weeks.


You dodged a bullet today. If you keep reading TUG (edited because I see you joined TUG), you can learn many things about different resorts, and you can learn how to maximize the value of your week with RCI or II. You can also learn about RCI points which many here love, and you can find out how to buy those points cheap on e-bay to get you started. There are many good points programs out there (Bluegreen, Starpoints, Disney points, RCI), but festiva is not one of them. If you want points research here and aske questions before you buy, but whatever you do don't buy from a developer (buy resale), and don't give up a 2 bed 2 bath 4th of July week for points, any points.

Welcome to TUG.


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## bull2671

Tombo,

I'm so glad that I am a member of TUG, otherwise I would have regretted my decision. This site is truly a blessing to all timeshare users, especially  at moments like this.  The time spent last night reading all the posts was a life saver for me.

Thank you for your help.


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## tombo

You are so welcome. Welcome to TUG. I am sorry that I didn't notice before that you had already joined. 

There are many great sections on TUG. The sightings section is where people list available exchanges on II and RCI as soon as they appear. Often a resort will deposit a bulk banking and there are TUG members who peruse the site constantly all day and night who will let you know so you can grab one before it is gone. 

The last minute rentals here are rentals for $700 or less for a week. It is a great place to pick up some great weeks if you can travel last minute. 

The resort ratings will give you an idea of what any resort you are interested in visiting is like. There are reviews detailing the resorts and rankings based on owner reviews. Treat it kind of like they do gymnastic scores (throw out the lows and highs). Some people will give a resort a low rating because they got mad at a front desk person and the resort is actually great, and some people will give really high scores because they own there. I try to go with the majority view to pick a resort.

Ask questions here about resorts, destinations, what to do, where to eat, etc. I am typing this from the Sheraton Vistana in Orlando where I am staying on RCI trade. There are many sections and so I asked TUGGERs which section I should stay in. I got many suggestions and chose what the majority seemed to like. What everyone told me was that I needed to get a renovated room. I called the resort about a month in advance, I asked for the Lakes section in a renovated room, and when I checked in I said I was hoping you could get me a renovated room in the Lakes section, and she said I see that in the notes, let me see what I can do. I am sitting in a wonderful renovated room in the Lakes section. Without TUG I can assure you that I would have been in an older room because I wouldn't have known to ask for the renovated room in advance. The 2 bed room unit is huge, sleeps 8, has 3 flat screen TV's, is impeccably decorated, and the resort is a place I wish I could come back to next year (can't come back for 4 years because of the 1 in 4 rule). Thanks to TUG I am in a fantastic room and a great section of the resort.

E-bay is the best place to buy weeks currently IMO, and wherever you buy another week, buy t resale, never buy from a developer. If you would like another week somewhere, you can buy good weeks at good resorts on E-bay currently from $1 to $500. Ask questions here on how to buy on e-bay, who to buy from on e-bay, and what is a good price for a particular resort during certain dates. Many here can help. Just be careful because it can become addictive. They are so cheap to buy that you can overbuy like I did. I have weeks in the mountains, on the beach, in the carribbean. Heck I have more weeks than I can use and am still tempted to buy more so I try not to even look at timeshares for sale on e-bay lest I buy another.

Welcome and feel free to ask me or anyone else here any questions. Most will gladly help and everyone has different areas of expertise. I know a lot about Festiva (and it is all bad) because I own at Blue Ridge Village and I have researched their actions at other resorts, but I don't own any points of any kind so I know very little about other points. Some TUGGER own millions of Wyndham points, tens of thousands of RCI points, hundreds of DVC points, etc. There are people here who know so much about how points work that they can talk circles around timeshare salesmen. 

Read, learn, enjoy, and once again welcome.


----------



## Sou13

*Be glad you found us!*

I believe in the long run you will be glad you found us, bull2671!  I've made a personal project of keeping these Festiva discussions near the top of the Search Results because I didn't know about Festiva when I met with the Outfield Marketing sales rep onsite at Southcape Resort.

In the long run you may come to view that $48 as a good investment.  I have yet to hear from any happy Festiva club members who joined for the same reasons you did!


----------



## mayorpw

Sou13 said:


> Is it OK to launch a discussion here of what kind of offers Outfield Marketing is making to deeded interval owners?  Why and how is it possible to join the Club as a "New" member?  Is it OK to post how much it costs for how many points as opposed to how much it costs to convert?



you really have no clue to how it all works do you?:


----------



## Sou13

And you have no clue why we're worked up about it.

Since you haven't given up a deed in exchange for Festiva points, you're in no position to cast insults at those of us who see through this scam.


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## e.bram

Octoman now Decoman strikes again.


----------



## tombo

e.bram said:


> Octoman now Decoman strikes again.



Decoman is probably a little low but more appropriate currently than Octoman. Centuroman can not be far away with the frequency of those new guest appearances. I guess if he invents enough fake posters, one might slip in under the radar and be believed to be a real person.

Keep trying Cliff. I assume you have plenty of time to invent posters since Festiva/Southscape/Sandcastle sales are so slow.


----------



## tombo

mayorpw said:


> you really have no clue to how it all works do you?:



Unfortunatelly for Cliff/you/Festiva/Outfield, sou has learned a lot about how it works. You have retrieved an old post from when you were shrouded in secrecy. Now thanks to TUG and the internet the smoke and mirrors are being replaced by facts. Anyone googling Festiva/Outfield can read many owners complaints and many details about how Festiva takes over resorts, raises MF's, assesses, and takes valuable weeks from owners (plus cash) replacing them with Festiva points that are basically worthless.

Yes the good old days (for you) when Sou didn't have a clue how Outfield/Festiva/Cliff operated are long gone. Perhaps you should quote from some of Sou's new posts instead of these old posts from the past. The new posts are the ones that have you scared because the new posts are detailing all the things Sou has found out about, and now many of us know how it all works (much to your dismay).


----------



## Sou13

*Return of FestivaRep*

FestivaRep has returned but not to this discussion.  There are some FestivaRep posts that need to be reviewed.


----------



## rhonda3

*Any help would be appreciated*

Total newbie here, but I'm under a time constraint and hope you will forgive any mistakes I make (or things that I should have looked at but didn't know about!).  

History: I bought 2 fixed weeks at Peppertree Atlantic Beach more than 20 years ago but have never been back to the resort.  I had a wonderful experience trading these weeks via RCI while free and single, but now that I'm a mom of 3, we could never get the unit we needed in a place we wanted to go when we wanted to go.  So...my husband and I purchased Sunterra points (specifically for the internal exchange option) and had several good years there, moving our Peppertree/Equivest/Festiva weeks to the Sunterra/Diamond Club Select and getting the extra points we needed to take the vacations we wanted.

We've gotten the push to change to Festiva points, were seriously considering doing this, but now are reconsidering (what I've read here has been eye opening).  Due to several things that have happened in our lives, the decision was pushed to the back burner for several months.  It's been on the front burner for a couple weeks, but we still couldn't make the decision.  So here's where I'd love some expert advice:

    It looks like we do NOT want to make the switch from fixed weeks to points in the Festiva system--unless I'm reading all the posts incorrectly (any additional info here would be welcome). The only thing is, we cannot use our fixed weeks as school is in session for the kids (ages 8, 10, 12 so we've still got a while).  

    This year, our first week starts 9/5 and I can't get it into Club Select to use it in the Diamond internal exchange (which, on a totally different note, I'm having problems with availability in some geographical areas now that Diamond has taken over--and I'm not sure why).  Is renting the 9/5-Labor Day week really an option?  Since I've not been able to find an exchange that works with RCI in many years (and I'm sure depositing now wouldn't give me much "power"), I don't think that's a viable option.  Any suggestions would be welcome.

I look forward to getting to know TUG better, as it seems like a fabulous resource for those of us who want to continue in timeshare.


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## tombo

It is hard to exchange for prime summer weeks through RCI, but paying to join Festiva Adventure Club will increase your costs while probably decreasing exchange availability. At most Festiva resorts they own very limited amounts of prime inventory since most owners keep those weeks. If you were to join Festiva, your points can't be traded for weeks that Festiva doesn't own. Festiva can't deposit prime weeks with II that they don't own either. I would assume that about 100% of Festiva's limited number of prime weeks are used internally for members to use with points.

 Do not join Festiva for any reason. It is expensive and not worth it. You can possibly sell the week(s) you own, but you will be stuck with Festiva points for 30 years. Those are worthless. Run screaming the other way from the salespeople and don't let them scare you or intimidate you. Everyone is not going to points, everyone is not giving up their deeded weeks, RCI is not dumping your resort, Festiva points will not get you any week you want at any festiva location you desire, and your deeded week will not become worthless and unuseable. They tell lies and half truths, don't even sit down to talk with them because you can't beleive a thing they say. 

Redweek.com, TUB bulletin board, myresortnetwork.com, and a couple of other sites provide good rental opportunities. When you list you week make sure that you are no more expensive than the cheapest lsiting for a comparable week. The lowest priced 2 bed for labor day will obviously rent first. Go to the rental threads here on TUG and read about how, when, and where to rent your weeks. Also which resort(s) do you own at that you are needing to rent? Some owners at your specific resorts might be more helpful with rentals at your resort than most.

Welcome to TUG. Peruse the TUG forums to help you decide what you want to do with your weeks, to learn, and to enjoy, but whatever you do don't give up your deeded weeks for Festiva points that are worthless (IMO).


----------



## FestivaRep

I am following this thread as well as two others that are currently active (Southcape & Sandcastle). Please note that I will not be able to be as active on the board as I was several months ago as my job responsibilities have expanded and most of the time I've spent on here is after work hours on my own time. I expect to be able to catch up on the board once every week or two. If you have specific questions, you may get a faster answer if you e-mail them directly to me at comments@festivaresorts.com, and you can post my response(s) here publicly if you wish.



Sou13 said:


> FestivaRep has returned but not to this discussion.  There are some FestivaRep posts that need to be reviewed.


----------



## tombo

This ad on ebay for 2600 Festiva Points ended after being listed for 25 days with no bids even though the starting bid price was only $1. When we say in these forums that Festiva Points are worthless, we mean just that. I hope nobody else ever pays Festiva $3000 or more and gives Festiva their deeded week for Festiva Adventure Club points that can not even attract a bid of $1 on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...RRENCY=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_fvi=1&_rdc=1

Anyone who is considering Festiva membership and finds this site, DO NOT BUY OR SWAP YOUR WEEK FOR FESTIVA POINTS!!!!! If you do you will regret it for the next 30 years IMO.


----------



## Carolinian

I just notice Intercity Escrow Services on the Dare County website's land transfers page.  Since this is the entity connected with conversion downgrades to Festiva points on Cape Cod, I pulled up all transfers that had gone into this entity.  Apparently, these Festiva con artists have been working Outer Banks Beach Club and Outer Banks Beach Club II for about a year.  Given the extremely frosty relationship the HOA and management company have had with both Peppertree/Equivest and with Fairfield/Wyndham at these resorts, I can't imagine that these activities have been with the approval of the resort.  I suspect that most or all of them are people who were previously conned into converting to the dying Peppertree/Equivest points system and are now grasping at anything to get themselves out of that mess.  These resorts have had enough negative history with points system cons that I suspect the leadership there and most members would steer as far away from new conversions as possible.  However, when I am back in the states, if I get down to the OBX, I will make some inquiries.


----------



## Carolinian

I don't know who controls the resort HOA at Atlantic Beach, but my question would be if you are fixed week owners, who have never previously converted to Peppertree/Equivest points, is how did Festiva get your name and contact information?  The HOA should not be giving or selling that to scoundrels like Festiva.  I wonder if Peppertree gave it to them as part of the sale of whatever they had left at that resort.  If so, that would probably be illegal.  I suspect you probably have a homeowner run board, as one of the things Peppertree was good about was doing the right thing and turning over resorts to their timeshare owners at the appropriate time.




rhonda3 said:


> Total newbie here, but I'm under a time constraint and hope you will forgive any mistakes I make (or things that I should have looked at but didn't know about!).
> 
> History: I bought 2 fixed weeks at Peppertree Atlantic Beach more than 20 years ago but have never been back to the resort.  I had a wonderful experience trading these weeks via RCI while free and single, but now that I'm a mom of 3, we could never get the unit we needed in a place we wanted to go when we wanted to go.  So...my husband and I purchased Sunterra points (specifically for the internal exchange option) and had several good years there, moving our Peppertree/Equivest/Festiva weeks to the Sunterra/Diamond Club Select and getting the extra points we needed to take the vacations we wanted.
> 
> We've gotten the push to change to Festiva points, were seriously considering doing this, but now are reconsidering (what I've read here has been eye opening).  Due to several things that have happened in our lives, the decision was pushed to the back burner for several months.  It's been on the front burner for a couple weeks, but we still couldn't make the decision.  So here's where I'd love some expert advice:
> 
> It looks like we do NOT want to make the switch from fixed weeks to points in the Festiva system--unless I'm reading all the posts incorrectly (any additional info here would be welcome). The only thing is, we cannot use our fixed weeks as school is in session for the kids (ages 8, 10, 12 so we've still got a while).
> 
> This year, our first week starts 9/5 and I can't get it into Club Select to use it in the Diamond internal exchange (which, on a totally different note, I'm having problems with availability in some geographical areas now that Diamond has taken over--and I'm not sure why).  Is renting the 9/5-Labor Day week really an option?  Since I've not been able to find an exchange that works with RCI in many years (and I'm sure depositing now wouldn't give me much "power"), I don't think that's a viable option.  Any suggestions would be welcome.
> 
> I look forward to getting to know TUG better, as it seems like a fabulous resource for those of us who want to continue in timeshare.


----------



## elaine

*Festiva manages Atlantic Beach*

Festiva manages Atlantic Beach, and all maintenance fees go via Festiva now--so they have all owner information.  I have gotten multiple calls. Sometimes, I have gotten 2 calls on the same day.  Here's what I do "JUST SAY NO--I love my week"--it take me about 5 seconds.  I have a fixed summer week--there is no way I would ever consider any conversion, even if free. Elaine


----------



## Carolinian

elaine said:


> Festiva manages Atlantic Beach, and all maintenance fees go via Festiva now--so they have all owner information.  I have gotten multiple calls. Sometimes, I have gotten 2 calls on the same day.  Here's what I do "JUST SAY NO--I love my week"--it take me about 5 seconds.  I have a fixed summer week--there is no way I would ever consider any conversion, even if free. Elaine



Who controls the HOA?  On the Outer Banks, one thing that Peppertree / Equivest did very properly was to turn over the HOA board to homeowners at what was then Peppertree Outer Banks Beach Club I and II.  The HOA boards continued to let Peppertree manage the resorts, but when they sold out to Cendent / Fairfield, both boards balked at being connected to them, and so did not allow them to assume the management.  Both HOA boards working in tandem, hired a well-regarded management company out of Myrtle Beach and even took the ''Peppertree'' designation off of the resorts.

OBBC I and II were sold out when the sale of Peppertree / Equivest took place,  but my understanding was that Cendent / Fairfield took over unsold inventory and assumed management where they could.  They did not take Peppertree / Equivest's points club into their own but left it twisting in the breeze as membership declined.  The points club was, to my understanding, what Festiva bought, not management at resorts or unsold inventory.  I am curious as to how Festiva ended up managing your resort.  That is NOT a good sign.  

Peppertree / Equivest's finances were not good in their last days.  They had purchased a tract off the beach on the OBX to build another resort but that got sold at the Dare County courthouse door to pay off some judgments against them.

If the HOA board at Atlantic Beach is either Festiva employees or gullible owners who have been snowed by them, or a combination, then your resort needs its concerned owners to get together and elect an owner-oriented board to rein in Festiva or perhaps give them the same treatment that Outer Banks Beach Club gave to Fairfield / Cendent.  If not, the more of these owners they con into downgrading and converting, the more uphill the battle will be later to try to take your resort back from Festiva.


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## Jya-Ning

Carolinian said:


> The points club was, to my understanding, what Festiva bought, not management at resorts or unsold inventory.



They also bought management right and unsold inventories.

It was owner controlled HOA.  If I remember right, last election, there is a candidate from the Festiva.  But don't know what the election result.

Jya-Ning


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## Carolinian

Jya-Ning said:


> They also bought management right and unsold inventories.
> 
> It was owner controlled HOA.  If I remember right, last election, there is a candidate from the Festiva.  But don't know what the election result.
> 
> Jya-Ning



A management ''right'' can only be sold if an HOA is foolish enough not to put a clause in the management contract that requires the HOA's consent to a transfer management to a third party.  That allows an HOA to remain in the drivers seat.  Too often, that does not happen, unfortunately, and the HOA must wait until the contract comes up for renewal.  Outer Banks Beach Club was fortunate in that regard. 

When management tries to obtain board seats that is a huge red flag that you need to get rid of that management.  Management should be the hired hands, and when they try to get their hands on the board that is their boss, that is a huge conflict of interest.  In fact, there ought to be legislation to flatly prohibit that.

So Fairfield did not keep any unsold inventory at Atlantic Beach?  They would have loved to have had their hands on some at Outer Banks Beach Club.  All they really got was the former sales office across the street, which they tried to reopen for a while selling Fairfield points.  The Beach Club HOA would not let the Fairfield salesmen on the premises to sell, so they had to take prospects several miles away to Seascape, where they paid the HOA to let them tour prospects.  That did not work so well, so they finally just sold off the sales office, which was torn down by the buyers and whole-ownership condos (Victoria Place) put up in its place.


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## Jya-Ning

Carolinian said:


> A management ''right'' can only be sold if an HOA is foolish enough not to put a clause in the management contract that requires the HOA's consent to a transfer management to a third party.  That allows an HOA to remain in the drivers seat.  Too often, that does not happen, unfortunately, and the HOA must wait until the contract comes up for renewal.  Outer Banks Beach Club was fortunate in that regard.
> 
> When management tries to obtain board seats that is a huge red flag that you need to get rid of that management.  Management should be the hired hands, and when they try to get their hands on the board that is their boss, that is a huge conflict of interest.  In fact, there ought to be legislation to flatly prohibit that.



Most HOA is set up by developer first, than based on the real estate rule, turn over to owner at certain point.  Thus, to expect it will contain a clause not to allow themselves to sold the right will be very unlikely.

I agree with you, that there out to have rule that once the resort satisfy the status quo and turn to owner, some restriction should be there to which group can not be on HOA.  Probably the Management company and its arm length employee/employer.  So it can protect both sides.  Otherwise, in this case, once resort starts need to foreclosure the unpaid unit, there is no way managemnet company will not involved.  And I believe the PepperTree vacation club also own some units there, and the owner has no say on that club.  So, it will be very hard to not to have Festiva want to add someone to HOA and very hard for owner as a group to constant make sure it will not happens.

Jya-Ning


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## Carolinian

Jya-Ning said:


> Most HOA is set up by developer first, than based on the real estate rule, turn over to owner at certain point.  Thus, to expect it will contain a clause not to allow themselves to sold the right will be very unlikely.
> 
> I agree with you, that there out to have rule that once the resort satisfy the status quo and turn to owner, some restriction should be there to which group can not be on HOA.  Probably the Management company and its arm length employee/employer.  So it can protect both sides.  Otherwise, in this case, once resort starts need to foreclosure the unpaid unit, there is no way managemnet company will not involved.  And I believe the PepperTree vacation club also own some units there, and the owner has no say on that club.  So, it will be very hard to not to have Festiva want to add someone to HOA and very hard for owner as a group to constant make sure it will not happens.
> 
> Jya-Ning



Once owners contol an HOA they can write a management contract, and should always insert that clause about selling the contract.  You are right thet developer-controlled HOA's, looking out for the developer's interest, probably do not.  

Foreclosures should not bring a management company into ownership.  It is the HOA that back m/f's are owed to, and thus the HOA that should be the buyer, for those back m/f's at the foreclosure sale.  If a management company is acquiring ownership, it is a clear sign that something is very rotten.

As to Festiva voting the Peppertree points club weeks, thanks to Outer Banks Beach Club, there is already case law in North Carolina that they cannot do that.  The North Carolina courts have ruled that those votes belong to the owners of the underlying weeks, NOT to Peppertree or Festiva. Festiva has to be aware of that and if they are violating established North Carolina law in the way they operate at Atlantic Beach, then they ought to be nailed on it and nailed hard.  Scoflaws like that ought not to be managing resorts.

SPM Resorts has done a very good job of managing Outer Banks Beach Club.  They aren't control freaks like Festiva.  Maybe Atlantic Beach chuck out overbearing and self-serving Festiva and bring in SPM, or some other company that doesn't have a points club attached.


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## Sou13

*Clarification?*

Could you clarify that just a bit?  Are you saying that when NC owners convert to points they can still vote?  Or are you referring to owners who choose not to convert?


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## Sandy VDH

Why is the SA the same regardless of the unit size you own.  Shouldn't the SA be tied to that.  Studio owners pay less than 1 BR owners, etc.

The paperwork says that the SA is X $$ for every owner.

What are people doing about the SA?


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## Sou13

*Festiva sued by owners, backs down, regroups to try again!*

News just in today on Festiva's activities:
Festiva sued by owners, backs down, regroups to try again!


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## Sou13

*From the Southcape Resort discussion*

TomBenoit wanted NEVMSLLC to answer these questions:

NEVMSLLC - Perhaps you can answer some questions 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had asked these before but really need specific answers before I decide on any course of action:

Who is Jonathan Brown and did he tell us the truth?

He showed up at our house with a copy of our deed to Southcape back in December 2008. He informed us that (some is on paper):

1) Festiva had purchased Southcape
2) Maintenance fees were going to $750/year
3) The ENTIRE septec system needed to be replaced for $5-10mm 
4) There would be a $500/yr assesment for at least 5 years until
a) Septic is paid off
b) There is a $2mm reserve
5) All of Soutcape was switching to II
6) We could avoid the increased maint/assesments by 'upgrading' to Festiva
a) Year 1 of II would be included
b) Year 1 of Festiva maint would be included
c) We could 'opt out' of Festiva without penalty - anytime

We are now hearing some very conflicting information regarding the situation and implying that the individual (in my mind, in some way shape or form, an agent of Festiva) may not have been totally honest.​
His reply was

I am no longer engaging in debate or dialogue in this forum. It's pointless. I will correct untruths that are posted here. If you or any other owner would like answers to your questions, please email me at nevmsllc@gmail.com

Cliff​
My reply was

I believe TomBenoit is asking you to do just that. So does that mean that what Jonathan Brown told him is true?​
to which he replied

My private communications with owners are exactly that - private.​
to which I replied

I contend that we'd all be better served if you answer his questions publicly so that you don't have to use up your time valued at $1,000 per month charged to us answering these important questions privately.​


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## Sou13

*Important message from TimeSharing Today*

*Important message from TimeSharing Today​*
Timesharing Today will be publishing another article, this time on the marketing and sales practices any of the owners experience IN THEIR HOMES.

They will need our help. This is what they are looking for:

They are planning a generic article about the sales tactics of developers going to the homes of owners and coercing them into converting them to points. The article won't give any names but will be descriptive of the methods used. Please let TimeSharing Today know what experiences of owners were without disclosing any personal or confidential information.

So, why are they doing all this picking and poking?

TimeSharing Today believes a storm is brewing in the timeshare industry. Owners are moving beyond just complaining; they are organizing in many areas of the country and internationally and have either already turned to the courts or are getting ready to do so. Attorneys General have undertaken action to curb scams. It is their belief that 2010 may prove to be an explosive year for timeshare litigation that will affect developers, owners associations, management companies and millions of owners. A multitude of owners are realizing that they have lost control. In some cases, they have learned that they never really had control. Owners are tired of being manipulated, coerced and lied to. Some of these allegations have already been made public in the courts, in print and on various online forums and blogs. The word is out and it won't go away.

TimeSharing Today is committed to covering all aspects of the industry. They have been publishing a lot of painful stories and have spoken directly to many concerned owners who are desperate for change in an industry that has so much good to offer but can't seem to effectively regulate itself. The courts may be their only source for relief. But, there are also so many happy tales. Perhaps, many more than the tales of conflict and abuse. Let's never overlook the positive side of vacation ownership. Let's work toward raising the level of good faith and fair dealing every timeshare owner deserves. If we're stuck to a contract of adhesion, let's work toward having that contract result in happy, carefree timeshare vacations.

Please email comments to: staff@tstoday.com Subject: The industry

Below is a special message to Sandcastle/Southcape owners whose plight has been published in TimeSharing Today:

TimeSharing Today Magazine has been publishing since 1991 as an independent voice for the owner. It recently announced enhanced services to be more proactive in advocating for the owners on the issues that many are facing. TimeSharing Today has begun supporting us by publishing our letter detailing the difficulties we are addressing and obtaining a response from the resort management. As we continue to seek greater owner control at our resort, TimeSharing Today will continue to support our efforts to create awareness. We ask that you show your support by subscribing to this important publication. Please use this link: https://tstoday.com/shop/freebonus.aspx?source=grp02


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## bnoble

Are any other Festiva owners being contacted by some outfit called ListingDepartment.com?

Something doesn't smell right.  Details in this thread.
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108382


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## ChrisH

*Now for the TRUTH - Festiva Adv Club FEES - 2010*

From:  Festiva Resorts                                                   November 10, 2009

Dear Sir or Madam

This year has been an exciting year for the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club, but we sure aren’t sad to see it go.  2009 has been a tough year for nearly everyone and the Adventure Club is no exception.  On the positive side, there have been some great additions to the Adventure Club this year and there are more to follow in 2010 and beyond.  We would like to take this opportunity to update you on these recent additions and inform you of some exciting future additions and some unfortunate changes that may not be as pleasant.
Festiva Resorts has added four fantastic destinations for members to choose from.  All are not available for your next vacation with the Adventure Club.  From skiing in Maine to Mardi Gras in New Orleans, or from relaxing on the beach in one of America’s oldest cities to fall leaf watching in New England, the Adventure Club has made it available for you.
•	Rangeley Lake Resort in Rangeley, Maine
•	Frenchmen Orleans 519 in New Orleans, Louisiana
•	Ocean Gate Resort in St. Augustine, Florida
•	Southcape Resort & Club in Cape Cod, Massachusetts
During 2009 we heard feedback from many of our members that were not happy with the $89 multiple reservation fee that was charged for any stay booked after the first reservation transaction.  We are happy to announce that effective immediately the $89 multiple reservation fee has been eliminated and there will be $0 charge for making multiple reservations.
Festiva Resorts has added nearly 4,000 new members to the Adventure Club through its sales efforts in 2009, bringing total membership to nearly 16,000 members.
We would also like to remind you that you may accelerate a future year’s allotment of points and/or rent additional points in order to complete any reservation.
Unfortunately the Adventure Club has seen the effects of the economic recession just as it has impacted many other industries, businesses and individuals.  In 2009 we have seen an increase in delinquencies and defaults.  As a result the Adventure Club is facing some very large deficits in 2010.  In order to face those deficits head on and to ensure that the Adventure Club continues to fulfill its mission of providing superior products and services to its members, the maintenance fee structure is being adjusted to include nearly $1.7 million in expected bad debt and defaults.  To be straightforward, that will result in an increase in fees for everyone.  At this time the assessments have not been completed and we will not have the specific maintenance fees amounts available until immediately before your invoice is mailed.  The Owner Services department does not have this information at this time.
Festiva Resorts passes this new along with sincere empathy as it has certainly felt the pain firsthand.  Festiva Resorts (while under no obligation to do so) has subsidized the Adventure Club’s bad debt in an amount approaching $1 million during 2009 and will again contribute and estimated $1 million in 2010.
  We mention the above contributions as we predict that the news of this increase could be met by accusations and rumors spread among members through various internet outlets or at the resorts.  The facts are that people have been hit pretty hard during 2009 and quite simply many of them can no longer afford their home or their car, let alone their Adventure Club membership. To lessen the impact of this deficit on all members Festiva Resorts is going above and beyond its obligations by contributing $2 million in subsidies by the end of 2010 that otherwise would have been used to further enhance the Club and its resorts.  We ask for your understanding and to come to terms with the fact that you the members and we the founders of the Adventure Club are in this together.  We know that these economic woes will eventually pass and we also know that in order to protect your investment and ours all parties involved must act responsibly and face this burden squarely and completely.
We want to provide you with the facts and be as transparent as possible as you will be receiving your Maintenance Fee invoice by mail in the next few weeks.  Again, we appreciate your understanding and have confidence that the efforts of responsible members like you along with those of Festiva Resorts will help to continually improve the Adventure Club program and its family of resorts.  We look forward to servicing your vacation needs in 2010 and moving forward.

Sincerely,
Festiva Resorts Adventure Club


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## Bill4728

> In 2009 we have seen an increase in delinquencies and defaults. As a result the Adventure Club is facing some very large deficits in 2010. In order to face those deficits head on and to ensure that the Adventure Club continues to fulfill its mission of providing superior products and services to its members, the maintenance fee structure is being adjusted to include nearly $1.7 million in expected bad debt and defaults.



WHY??

Not that it is surprising that there are people not paying their MFs or defaulting on their TS but why is that the problem of the other owners?  

Couldn't & Shouldn't the HOA just take those weeks, which aren't being used by the delinquent owners, and rent them? Then use that money to make up the delinquencies.


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## tombo

Bill4728 said:


> WHY??
> 
> Not that it is surprising that there are people not paying their MFs or defaulting on their TS but why is that the problem of the other owners?
> 
> Couldn't & Shouldn't the HOA just take those weeks, which aren't being used by the delinquent owners, and rent them? Then use that money to make up the delinquencies.



The owner who should pick up all of the delinquent payments is Festiva. Festiva owns all Adventure Club weeks at all Festiva resorts, the members actually own nothing. The Adventure Club members only get points for a limited number of years to use, but they have no ownership at all. 

Why should dues paying members pay for defaults on weeks that Festiva owns? They shouldn't, it is the owner's (Festiva's) responsibility to cover the expenses on the properties they own.

Does Festiva rent those delinquent weeks? Yes. 

Who gets that rental money at most of the resorts they control? The HOA? No, Festiva gets it.

Has Festiva cut the costs of management at their resorts by reducing the mgt fees paid during these tough times? No. Why not? Because a large percent of Festiva's income comes from Mgt fees paid to themselves at the resorts they control. 

Can the resorts fire Festiva as the Mgt company and hire a new Mgt company who will be more fiscally responsible to Festiva Adventure Club members and actual weeks owners (who won't convert to Festiva giving up their deeded weeks) at the same resorts? No because Festiva places themselves and their employees on the board assuring that they will not be removed as Mgt company at any resort they take over using the weeks they own to vote themselves board members. The board members then vote festiva the mgt company in perpetuity. 

Has Festiva stopped all other assessments and renovations until the economy recovers? No, they continue to assess at different resorts to improve the value of the property they own as more and more owners become delinquent.

This letter from Festiva to members is the bend over and get ready warning of the assessments to come. If you think that there are some delinquencies now, just wait until the letters anouncing the MF's increases and assessments for 2010 are mailed, then you are really going to see some FAC members and weeks owners hand their deeds back and run for the hills. Delinquencies they are a coming. 

How long can Festiva hold on with few sales and dwindling membership dues? Probably not long.

 Will Festiva bill and bill everyone they can to keep themselves in the black until owners and members can only see red? I feel sure that will be the case considering how quick they were to assess and raise MF's when times were good. Now that times are bad i can only assume that the MF increases and assessments will only get worse.

Before long Festiva might totally kill their cash cow by strangling the remaining paying members and owners until there are not enough left to keep the doors open. Who will last longer, the overcharged members and owners, or the underfunded Festiva? Only time will tell.


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## e.bram

Hip, Hip, Hooray!!!


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## timeos2

*It's another case for super LLC!*



tombo said:


> Why should dues paying members pay for defaults on weeks that Festiva owns? They shouldn't, it is the owner's (Festiva's) responsibility to cover the expenses on the properties they own..



Maybe they can just put the trust into an LLC and abandon the whole mess to "someone" who will clean it up for them?  It seems to be the answer for most timeshare owners according to some, why not Festiva? Then they can sell it all over again until they tire of it. Yup, that should do it. 

In serious answer Festiva doesn't own the resorts but the control of the resorts which they assign to buyers through the trust.  By purchasing a share or shares you commit to the rules and regs which include the requirement to pay the fees. Unfortunately you have no say in those fees or how they get set - just another reason not to buy into the idea of a trust based system IMO.   It is far too one sided in favor of the operator/management as you and other owners are quickly finding out.


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## tombo

timeos2 said:


> In serious answer Festiva doesn't own the resorts but the control of the resorts which they assign to buyers through the trust.  By purchasing a share or shares you commit to the rules and regs which include the requirement to pay the fees. Unfortunately you have no say in those fees or how they get set - just another reason not to buy into the idea of a trust based system IMO.   It is far too one sided in favor of the operator/management as you and other owners are quickly finding out.



Festiva owns the weeks that the points memberships are based on so whenever a member defaults on their annual dues, it is not the other renters responsibility to pay Festiva's shortfall on their deeded property. If you are renting an apartment from a landlord he doesn't charge you more when your neighbors don't pay their rent.  

Festiva bought all of the unsold inventory and all of peppertree's/ Wyndham's weeks at Blue Ridge Village giving them ownership of the majority of weeks in Phase 2 at my resort. They claim that they own the common areas out right and they also purchased woods which they plan on building new timeshares on. So yes they actually do own the mjority of Phase 2 at my resort, in fact they own 80% according to their CEO. No matter how many points memberships they sell, they will always own at least 80% because they don't offer the deeded weeks they own for sale. This 80% ownership is how they took over control of the HOAs because they have 80% of the votes. 

I didn't buy into Festiva's system and never would. What happened is that I was a deeded owner when the resort was managed by Wyndham. I am still a deeded fixed week owner at the resort and Festiva can't do anything about that. Festiva came in and took over the resort and I had no say in that just like I have no say in them managing the resort, no say in what they charge to manage the place, no say in what they renovate, no say in what they assess, and no say about who they hand pick to be on the board. It is a great resort run by a terrible organization who raises MF's and assesses as they see fit. I have yet to quit and sell because I love the resort and the area, but once they inform me how much it will cost me in MF's and assessments in 2010 I might have to punt my weeks I own at this resort. I hope they will not be stupid and raise MF's and assessments so high that many more owners will have to default, but I am afraid that their need for cash now will lead them to charge too much during these tough times. We are at their mercy and I am afraid that they won't show any mercy.


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## e.bram

tombo:
Any MF increases or SAs Festiva raises they have to pay themselves(80%)also. However Festiva could be heading into a death spiral if the members bail.Too bad?


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## Kozman

*impact on fixed weeks*

How can this Festiva problem be forced onto the fixed week owners if they do not own the club points.


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## e.bram

If an owner of a large number of units stops paying MFs and SAs, you figure it out.


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## tombo

Kozman said:


> How can this Festiva problem be forced onto the fixed week owners if they do not own the club points.



Festiva owns 80 percent of the vote in phase 2 and votes their votes to place their own employees and officers as board members. Because the resort's board members are predominatelly Festiva employees, the board can vote to raise MF's, raise Mgt fees paid to Festiva, and they can vote to assess. There is nothing the fixed week owners (like myself) or Festiva members can do about it except pay the increased fees or sell. The board can't be voted off by fixed week owners because we don't have enough votes and the Festiva Club members don't own anything so they don't even get a vote. Festiva control everything at the resort because they control the HOA's.

That is how they can force their financial problems onto fixed week owners.


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## Kozman

tombo said:


> Festiva owns 80 percent of the vote in phase 2 and votes their votes to place their own employees and officers as board members. Because the resort's board members are predominatelly Festiva employees, the board can vote to raise MF's, raise Mgt fees paid to Festiva, and they can vote to assess. There is nothing the fixed week owners (like myself) or Festiva members can do about it except pay the increased fees or sell. The board can't be voted off by fixed week owners because we don't have enough votes and the Festiva Club members don't own anything so they don't even get a vote. Festiva control everything at the resort because they control the HOA's.
> 
> That is how they can force their financial problems onto fixed week owners.



I understand that point, but how can they co-mingle the funds from the weeks owners into the pot of the club owners to relieve their mistakes?  Aren't they two separate pots of money?  If all the club owners quit paying then wouldn't the club go bankrupt and sold off to another buyer who could repair the abuse?


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## e.bram

If Festiva goes belly up(or decides not to pay MF for any given TS), then the non Festiva owners have to pay the entire budget.


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## Tia

How can they mix the money? One way would be they are not ethical and just do it , been there  . Who is to stop them?




Kozman said:


> I understand that point, but how can they co-mingle the funds from the weeks owners into the pot of the club owners to relieve their mistakes?  Aren't they two separate pots of money?  If all the club owners quit paying then wouldn't the club go bankrupt and sold off to another buyer who could repair the abuse?


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## tombo

When you divide the number of weeks owned into the total amount of money required to operate the resort, the weeks owned by individual owners and the weeks owned by Festiva count as a total. When an individual owner doesn't pay for their MF's, the slack has to be picked up by the rest of the owners to cover the budget. 

Festiva does the same thing even though they are the OWNERS and should pay the MF's for every week they own, not just on the weeks that members actually pay dues on. Instead when members don't pay they simply divide expenses by the total number of Festiva members paying and the total of fixed weeks owners paying and come up with an average per paying week that will cover the budget and send out the bills. Festiva acts like them paying money for weeks they own that members aren't paying dues on is generous and something they don't have to do. In reality they should pay dues on every week they own whether a member has paid to use the week or not. If it was fair it would be the total paying weeks owned by individuals plus the total of weeks owned by Festiva divided into the total budget and a per week MF could be fairly determined. Since Festiva actually owns their weeks they should be responsible for any MF's, assessments, and non payment by their members because they are the owners. 

If you own an apartment complex you can't not pay taxes, electricity, insurance etc. on apartments you haven't been able to rent. If you have numerous empty units you can't raise rent on the other tenants each year to cover your lack of rental income because the tenants will just move out. Festiva has members locked in for 30 years and will ruin their credit if they don't pay whatever annual dues they charge regardless of how much or little of the corporate money they actually spend on weeks owned by Festiva which are not collecting membership fees. Fixed week owners must pay whatever bill the HOA sends them or face collections too. As I said earlier, you are at their mercy.


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## tombo

Kozman said:


> I understand that point, but how can they co-mingle the funds from the weeks owners into the pot of the club owners to relieve their mistakes?  Aren't they two separate pots of money?  If all the club owners quit paying then wouldn't the club go bankrupt and sold off to another buyer who could repair the abuse?



Eventually the Festiva club will probably go bankrupt, but before that happens so could the resort. No electric bills paid, no power. No taxes paid, resort goes into foreclosure. No payroll met, employees quit.  No upkeep, the resort becomes less valuable, more expensive to renovate, and harder to sell weeks and memberships. 

This is still a great resort and it is in good shape. If somehow Festiva pays their fair share and doesn't assess and MF us out of existence it will remain a great resort. The members and owners must ride it out until Festiva goes broke, resumes making money, or sells. Somehow this resort must stay solvent and with the huge number of the weeks owned by Festiva, the majority of the financial responsibility also lies with them. Now getting them to pay their fair share rather than simply shifting more and more of the financial burden to owners and members is something that is impossible to do. If they get too greedy they will kill the goose that laid the golden egg.


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## Sou13

My first comment is to the moderator who moved this discussion to the U.S. Eastern when it was originally in the "Points System Discussions":  Are all resorts in the Festiva Adventure Club located in the Eastern U.S.?  This is about Festiva's points-based Adventure Club, not Festiva Resorts!

My next comment is about the letter posted above.  That's not the entire letter.  A Festiva Adventure Club member read me the rest of the letter.  Festiva is offering $500 gift certificates to various Festiva resorts on a first-come, first-served basis, and one of the clubs is Blue Ridge Village!

At Southcape Resort the Outfield Marketers are so desperate to sell conversions to Festiva that now when an owner wants to rent at the owners' discounted rate, it has strings attached:  The owner has to agree to "take a tour of the resort to hear about the exciting new exchange opportunities!" (http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=820309&postcount=1184)


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## tombo

Sou13 said:


> My first comment is to the moderator who moved this discussion to the U.S. Eastern when it was originally in the "Points System Discussions":  Are all resorts in the Festiva Adventure Club located in the Eastern U.S.?  This is about Festiva's points-based Adventure Club, not Festiva Resorts!



I agree that this thread should remain on the points forum.

Festiva has resorts in the caribbean (St Martin), Branson Missouri, a caribbean sailing club, Maggie Valley, Gatlinburg, Nassau Bahamas, and Wisconsin Dells Wisconsin on top of the east coast resorts. I too think that this Festiva thread should remain in  the points forum since the discussion encompasses more than just east coast resorts, it is about all festiva points owners at all locations.  The letter we are currently discussing was sent to all Festiva resort owners, not just those on the east coast.We already have Southscape and Sandcastle discussions listed on the eastern section since those discussions relate to specific east coast resorts.


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## Sou13

*"We don't sell weeks, we sell points"*

It's been a year since my close call with Greg Hughes at Southcape Resort and I'm back from my 4-day stay.  Here's the latest:

There's a big sign in the clubhouse next to the reception area that gives the impression that if you make an appointment with "owner services" in Unit 32 there are weeks for sale at Southcape and Sandcastle Resorts.  The Sandcastle weeks are supposed to be available for the "balance owed" or something to that effect.  Because I didn't check in on Saturday, I wasn't offered a $50 gift card at check-in for making an appointment.  But Frank in owner services was able to squeeze me in Friday morning, and when he learned that I knew about New England Vacation Services and the FAC he didn't put me through any presentation, just answered or tried to answer my questions.

The first question was, how much are they asking for a week, to which the reply is that they don't sell weeks, they sell points.  I hope I get this right because Frank is going to check up on my report.  So here goes and you can decide what to make of it:

"Nobody is selling deeded weeks anymore.  The United States is the only country where you can buy a deeded week that you own forever.  At most you can own a week for 30 years.  The timeshare deeded weeks have gone out like the VCR and I won't sell you a VCR either."

Frank is paid by Outfield Marketing to either sell me points for one of the weeks owned by New England Vacation Services or to tell me what a wonderful opportunity I will be missing if I don't convert my deeded week to points in the FAC.  New England Vacation Services would supposedly be doing Southcape weeks owners a disservice if they hadn't made a deal with Festiva.

When you enter his office you see one of the beautiful wood-inlaid boat pictures that have been removed from units 1-31.  According to Frank that was the only one that hadn't been damaged by guests' children.

Someone put notices under guests' doors for two or three weeks last summer.  These notices cost Outfield Marketing big bucks in lost sales.  I told Frank that this was all news to me but did ask him to make a copy of one for me, which he did.

According to Frank, there's a lot of misinformation on TUG and it's no longer worth the time to read our discussions.  He finds them almost laughable.

I was completely unaware that only owners of units 1-31 have "float" weeks.  Weeks in units 32-55 are all fixed weeks.  Float weeks are a bad idea which is why units 32-55 are all fixed weeks and have a different master deed.  The entire resort needs to be united under one master deed.

Festiva isn't about to "take over" Southcape and the whole idea of complaining to the Attorney General is unfounded according to Frank.

Here's the selling point that I can't comprehend.  Southcape Resort has check-in on Saturday but if you are a Festiva points member you can stay from Friday to Sunday and if you reserve less than 30 days in advance you can stay more than 7 nights per year.  The reason I argued with him about this is that in order for anyone to stay from Friday to Sunday, there have to be two weeks available and as the weeks get sold that is less likely to happen.

The before and after pictures that were on display at the owners' meeting are now on display in owner services.  Everyone is so impressed with what a wonderful job New England Vacations Services has done at Southcape *by assessing us for doing it!*  So New England Vacation Services bought 550 unsold weeks at Southcape Resort at a "fixer-upper" price and then charged the maintenance-fee-paying owners for fixing up their units!  And the way they "convinced" weeks owners to convert to points was to tell them that they would not have to pay the special assessments that would have to be levied on weeks owners in order to do it.

Frank used a calculator and found that the owner of 6 float weeks got the best deal.  Since this discussion is about what kind of offers weeks owners were being made I can finally report that there is only one base Festiva MF per member and the # of points owned determine what the MF will be per year.  While six deeded weeks have six MFs the Festiva member pays one base MF which will be going up this year.  The owner of the 6 weeks that were converted to Festiva points paid one conversion fee of $2990 and 6 processing fees of $195.  No wonder she sold out to Festiva!

I have to submit this now and get back to it tomorrow.  Meanwhile, comments and questions are appreciated.


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## mweinberg

Sou13 said:


> According to Frank, there's a lot of misinformation on TUG and it's no longer worth the time to read our discussions.  He finds them almost laughable.



What's almost laughable is the notion that it's no longer worth their time to read our discussions.  Cliff Hagberg logs onto TUG BBS every single day like clockwork.  Clearly, they DO care what's being said here, and they monitor it very closely.

If the sign in the lobby says that they have weeks for sale, but once you get there they are selling only points, this is a perfect example of "bait and switch."  This, in itself, warrants a complaint to the Attorney General and to CAC.  Clearly, the folks at Outfield believe we're all pretty stupid!

mweinberg


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## Sou13

I posted this to the "merged" Sandcastle discussion:

_Massachusetts Secretary of State William Francis Galvin has been running TV advertisements for Massachusetts residents to call a toll-free # if they have been victims of fraud. On his website there is an announcement of a $3.9 million restitution to Massachusetts residents who have been victims of a senior citizen fraud case.

The toll-free # is fleeting and hard for senior citizens to read, and it's not announced, but I did manage to jot it down and call it today. I talked to a very helpful and empathetic volunteer who couldn't understand why the Attorney General hasn't filed a class action suit against New England Vacation Services. He encouraged owners of timeshares in Massachusetts to get more vocal and make our case heard. The contact info posted above is just the beginning of who should be hearing from us.

Today there's an article in the Cape Cod Times: AG files suit for alleged Cape timeshare scam.

The TV advertisements are vague and don't necessarily make it clear that the # has been set up for victims in this particular settlement and the volunteer suggested that it was made vague enough to encourage victims of any kind of fraud to call._

I posted it to that discussion because it immediately follows all the contacts that ChrisH had posted.  And that's just the beginning of places to complain!

What isn't laughable is that to date there may be more than 800 Sandcastle and Southcape weeks that have been acquired by Festiva as a result of these deceptive tactics.  And they are deceptive.  There's no way that the average points member can find a Friday to Monday stay at Southcape on a regular basis.  As the fixed weeks get switched over to points, these 3-night stays will become less and less possible.  The only weekends that might be available would be in the freezin season when even a weekend getaway to Cape Cod might not be where you'd want to spend your points.  And you might have to spend them in January or February or risk not finding anything available at the end of the year.

I have yet to find a former Southcape owner who's happy with Festiva.  Why don't they post here?


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## Sou13

*?????*

Here's a puzzle for you.  NEVMSLLC claims that NEVS is selling weeks.  Yet when I search the Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access for weeks sold by New England Vacation Services in Mashpee here' what I find:
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCR (AS TR) UNIT 10 TIME 50
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
10-16-2009 24100-87     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCR (AS TR) UNIT 47 TIME 11
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
10-16-2009 24100-89     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCR (AS TR) UNIT 17 TIME 53
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
10-16-2009 24100-95     

Can anyone explain how there can be a Week *53* at Southcape Resort?


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## tombo

The fixed weeks MF's didn't go up from last year. Apparently only Festiva Adventure club members got assessed for the shortfall from delinquencies.

I love my resort that Festiva took over, the staff is great, and I don't want to sell. If they continue to keep the MF's in line for fixed week owners I won't have to sell a resort I like a lot.


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## Sou13

*"Help NEVS sell its weeks"!*

The Barnstable online registry has been updated through Dec. 4, 2009, and I went through all the weeks that have been converted to the FAC.  Of more than 250 weeks to date, less than *70* are from Units 32-55!

The bulk of the weeks bought by NEVS are in Units 32-55 which I had not realized until my visit with Frank in "Owner Services" are *fixed weeks*.  This explains why Festiva is so eager to grab weeks from float weeks owners of Units 1-31, rather than buying the NEVS-owned weeks.

Frank claims it's not "fair" that owners in Units 32-55 have "fixed" weeks while owners in Units 1-31 have "float" weeks but I contend that if anything is "unfair" it's what's happening at Southcape thanks to Frank and Outfield Marketing!


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## Sou13

*Another unhappy FAC member*



ChrisH said:


> From:  Festiva Resorts                                                   November 10, 2009
> 
> Dear Sir or Madam
> 
> This year has been an exciting year for the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club, but we sure aren’t sad to see it go.  2009 has been a tough year for nearly everyone and the Adventure Club is no exception.  On the positive side, there have been some great additions to the Adventure Club this year and there are more to follow in 2010 and beyond.  We would like to take this opportunity to update you on these recent additions and inform you of some exciting future additions and some unfortunate changes that may not be as pleasant.
> Festiva Resorts has added four fantastic destinations for members to choose from.  All are not available for your next vacation with the Adventure Club.  From skiing in Maine to Mardi Gras in New Orleans, or from relaxing on the beach in one of America’s oldest cities to fall leaf watching in New England, the Adventure Club has made it available for you.
> •	Rangeley Lake Resort in Rangeley, Maine
> •	Frenchmen Orleans 519 in New Orleans, Louisiana
> •	Ocean Gate Resort in St. Augustine, Florida
> •	Southcape Resort & Club in Cape Cod, Massachusetts
> During 2009 we heard feedback from many of our members that were not happy with the $89 multiple reservation fee that was charged for any stay booked after the first reservation transaction.  We are happy to announce that effective immediately the $89 multiple reservation fee has been eliminated and there will be $0 charge for making multiple reservations.
> Festiva Resorts has added nearly 4,000 new members to the Adventure Club through its sales efforts in 2009, bringing total membership to nearly 16,000 members.
> We would also like to remind you that you may accelerate a future year’s allotment of points and/or rent additional points in order to complete any reservation.
> Unfortunately the Adventure Club has seen the effects of the economic recession just as it has impacted many other industries, businesses and individuals.  In 2009 we have seen an increase in delinquencies and defaults.  As a result the Adventure Club is facing some very large deficits in 2010.  In order to face those deficits head on and to ensure that the Adventure Club continues to fulfill its mission of providing superior products and services to its members, the maintenance fee structure is being adjusted to include nearly $1.7 million in expected bad debt and defaults.  To be straightforward, that will result in an increase in fees for everyone.  At this time the assessments have not been completed and we will not have the specific maintenance fees amounts available until immediately before your invoice is mailed.  The Owner Services department does not have this information at this time.
> Festiva Resorts passes this new along with sincere empathy as it has certainly felt the pain firsthand.  Festiva Resorts (while under no obligation to do so) has subsidized the Adventure Club’s bad debt in an amount approaching $1 million during 2009 and will again contribute and estimated $1 million in 2010.
> We mention the above contributions as we predict that the news of this increase could be met by accusations and rumors spread among members through various internet outlets or at the resorts.  The facts are that people have been hit pretty hard during 2009 and quite simply many of them can no longer afford their home or their car, let alone their Adventure Club membership. To lessen the impact of this deficit on all members Festiva Resorts is going above and beyond its obligations by contributing $2 million in subsidies by the end of 2010 that otherwise would have been used to further enhance the Club and its resorts.  We ask for your understanding and to come to terms with the fact that you the members and we the founders of the Adventure Club are in this together.  We know that these economic woes will eventually pass and we also know that in order to protect your investment and ours all parties involved must act responsibly and face this burden squarely and completely.
> We want to provide you with the facts and be as transparent as possible as you will be receiving your Maintenance Fee invoice by mail in the next few weeks.  Again, we appreciate your understanding and have confidence that the efforts of responsible members like you along with those of Festiva Resorts will help to continually improve the Adventure Club program and its family of resorts.  We look forward to servicing your vacation needs in 2010 and moving forward.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Festiva Resorts Adventure Club


Here's what a disgruntled new FAC member has to say:

*I never paid fees before since I'm a new owner, but my fees for a 2010 for a 3800 pt bi-annual was about $750.  I thought this was considerably more than we had been quoted when buying (we got suckered at a weekend thing but have since learned a great deal).  I told my husband I wasn't sure this was really going to end up saving us on our vacations every year and that we might be better off paying it off and donating or giving it back just to avoid paying this outstanding fee every other year.

I find it bad business to punish those of us who are in good standing for those that had to default.  Why didn't they just stream-line the maintenance or cut down on remodels for awhile until things picked back up?  I know they have to keep trying to sell in order to grow, but I have a feeling they are going to gain a lot more returns as a result of the maintenance fees cost - which in the long run is only going to make things worse for the company.  It's too bad too, I think they might have a decent thing going otherwise.*


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## Sou13

Here's another Festiva takeover discussion:
   Timeshare Forums > General Timeshare Topics > Horror Stories - Bad experiences at Timeshares  
Festiva goes to points and charges Thousands

Go to the bottom of the page and find "Refbacks" to the TUG discussions!


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## Sou13

*$10 for 2500 Festiva points?*

I had to submit the above post but then went on to the Timeshare Forums to read the latest posts.  I then went to the timeshares for sale and found a $10 bid for 2500 Festiva points with only 2 hours 17 minutes left to bid:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220523636269


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## Sou13

*MF for 2010*

A Southcape summer week owner who let the Outfield Marketer come to her home and fell for his scare tactics has now received her Festiva MF for 2010.  *She paid the $3185 and signed over her deeded week to Festiva* thinking she'd be escaping escalating Southcape MFs and the SAs that Festiva members are supposed to be avoiding.  In addition, instead of paying the Southcape MF of $593.88 for 2009, she had to pay Festiva $700 for 4800 points.  Yes, she avoided the $400 special assessment, but now her Festiva MF for 2010 is $828 for 4800 points while she'd be paying Southcape $595 MF for 2010 if she's given the sales rep his walking papers..  Is she happy with Festiva?  *NO!!!*


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## e.bram

Question. Do Festiva points owners have any home resort advantage(ARP) for the resort or specific unit and time advantage for early reservation ?


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## ChrisH

*?? Is this really an advantage?*

If you own a deeded fixed week (non Festiva) you are guaranteed that fixed week and unit every year.  If you change your plans at anytime - you may then deposit that week in whatever exchange system - RCI or II of which you are a member. 

If you give up your deed to become a Festiva Adventure Club member, you can use your fixed week and possibly your exact unit at your home resort- if you reserve that exact week at least 12 months in advance but not more than 13 months in advance.  If you miss that time window, there is no guaratee from FAC that you will get any reservation week at your resort. 

Festiva also has Platinum, Gold or some other kind of membership  upgrade (that you probably have to pay more bucks for) and then those people get precedence over all owners/members - isn't that special!


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## Sou13

What I really don't understand is what week you own if you convert a "float" week at Southcape.  I met an unhappy Festiva convert who discovered that in order to get the same week she had always been able to reserve as a "float" week owner, she had to pay Festiva additional money to buy enough points to get her that week.  But how can she ever get that week again?  Does Festiva reserve a week for FAC members and does she get first crack at it?

Here's what happens to "float" week owners.  If you reserve a week in November you have to reserve whatever is left over for the following year.  Is Festiva required to wait until that week has been used before being able to reserve a week for the next year?  Are "points" owners being held to the same requirements as deeded owners?

I know this doesn't make much sense to fixed weeks owners, but the facts are that Outfield Marketing has been targeting float week owners for a reason.  Go to the Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access and see for yourselves how many "float" week owners have been targeted and snared by Outfield Marketing.


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## Sou13

Nearly 1/2 of all the conversions to the FAC owned "float" weeks in Southcape I.  These "float" week owners could have exchanged through Interval International and many of them did.  They could also have rented out their weeks for cash, and many of them did.  But now their choice is to pay a higher MF to Festiva in addition to the $3185 they paid Outfield Marketing to dupe them out of their deeded weeks.

Yes, I do mean *dupe* them out of their deeded weeks.

I've also discovered at least two Sandcastle owners who somehow got their weeks deeded back to them.  Did they finally see the light?


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## e.bram

Float owners are particularly vulnerable to the NEVS Festiva complex. The conflict of interest could allow Festiva to reserve all the better weeks for their club leaving the weeks owners with the worst weeks. However, I believe this conflict of interest would allow those owners of negative value weeks to bail out with impunity. If the Festiva owners stop paying causing them to bulk bail out, this could be the coup d' grace for the TS.


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## ChrisH

*I think that's a little mixed up*

If you are a fixed week owner and don't join Festiva - they cannot give out your week to anyone, you own it, not FAC.

If you 'owned' a fixed week and did join FAC - you can reserve that same week if you notify FAC atleast 12 and not more than 13 months in advance, according to their POS.  However, it doesn't say you will get your regular 'unit' that week.  You may get a 'comparable' one. That is, if they follow their own script>  :hysterical:


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## e.bram

ChrisH:
I was referring to float weeks only.  A March or November week might be palatable, whereas a January week on the Cape is intolerable.


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## Carolinian

Sou13 said:


> A Southcape summer week owner who let the Outfield Marketer come to her home and fell for his scare tactics has now received her Festiva MF for 2010.  *She paid the $3185 and signed over her deeded week to Festiva* thinking she'd be escaping escalating Southcape MFs and the SAs that Festiva members are supposed to be avoiding.  In addition, instead of paying the Southcape MF of $593.88 for 2009, she had to pay Festiva $700 for 4800 points.  Yes, she avoided the $400 special assessment, but now her Festiva MF for 2010 is $828 for 4800 points while she'd be paying Southcape $595 MF for 2010 if she's given the sales rep his walking papers..  Is she happy with Festiva?  *NO!!!*



These people who were lied to by the Outfield / Festiva / NEVS slugs should file complaints with the state AG.  Enough complaints and this crowd should get the Missouri treatment, and they richly deserve it.  They give timesharing a bad name.


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## ChrisH

*Thanks for clarifying*



e.bram said:


> ChrisH:
> I was referring to float weeks only.  A March or November week might be palatable, whereas a January week on the Cape is intolerable.



Thanks, I guess I got that a little confused.
Chris


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## e.bram

*The good and the bad:*

The best thing about Festiva taking over some units is they mostly acquired dog non prime units and will have to pay MFs ans SAs for those units that some owners will eventually walk away from . 
The worst thing about FAC taking control of units will happen if many FAC club members bail(less of a moral issue here since it is an anonymous club not fellow owners). FAC either has to pay all the MFs or none(since one default can be imputed to all the FAC owned units). Losing all the MFs due by Festiva could inflict serious financial harm(perhaps fatal) to the TS.


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## Carolinian

e.bram said:


> The best thing about Festiva taking over some units is they mostly acquired dog non prime units and will have to pay MFs ans SAs for those units that some owners will eventually walk away from .
> The worst thing about FAC taking control of units will happen if many FAC club members bail(less of a moral issue here since it is an anonymous club not fellow owners). FAC either has to pay all the MFs or none(since one default can be imputed to all the FAC owned units). Losing all the MFs due by Festiva could inflict serious financial harm(perhaps fatal) to the TS.



That scenario did, in fact, happen to a Pennsylvania resort a few years ago.  One of the points operations simply refused to pay the m/f's for its collection of weeks and the impact on the resort's finances was so severe that it went belly up.  A points club in South Africa went belly up a few years before that and it nearly sank a number of timeshares where they had blocks of weeks.

This is just another of the many concerns about a group like Festiva acquiring a block of weeks.  Control of the HOA is, however, the biggie.  The poison pill used at Stouts Hill in the UK is the best way to avoid that.


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## e.bram

*and the ugly:*

The poor suckers who paid to surrender their deed and join a worthless(actually less than)club. They would have been better off paying a PCC to rid themselves of the burden of ownership.


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## Sou13

*Did they finally see the light?*



Sou13 said:


> Nearly 1/2 of all the conversions to the FAC owned "float" weeks in Southcape I.  These "float" week owners could have exchanged through Interval International and many of them did.  They could also have rented out their weeks for cash, and many of them did.  But now their choice is to pay a higher MF to Festiva in addition to the $3185 they paid Outfield Marketing to dupe them out of their deeded weeks.
> 
> Yes, I do mean *dupe* them out of their deeded weeks.
> 
> I've also discovered at least two Sandcastle owners who somehow got their weeks deeded back to them.  Did they finally see the light?


One of the two FAC "converts" whose week was deeded back to him has a current listed telephone number, so I gave him a call.  He was surprised to learn that Festiva has deeded his week back to him, wanted to know how I found out.  I told him how to access the Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access and put him in touch with a Sandcastle owner.  He has not yet reported back to me but I hope an update will be posted here.

The other FAC "convert" had 5 Sandcastle weeks deeded back to her on December 4 but doesn't have a telephone number listed.  I'm leaving it up to Sandcastle owners to contact her for her story.


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## Sou13

*Sandcastle owners, where are you?*

The Sandcastle owners haven't updated this puzzling registry entry, and Lois Martin in the AGO is interested.  Sandcastle owners, where are you?


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## Sou13

*Update*



Sou13 said:


> The Sandcastle owners haven't updated this puzzling registry entry, and Lois Martin in the AGO is interested.  Sandcastle owners, where are you?


The Sandcastle owner whose week was deeded back to him according to the Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access is supposed to be contacting Lois Martin today.  He thanked me for bringing this matter to his attention.

I've also updated my signature, which I never realized wasn't linking to the "Terms and Conditions" until now.  When you click on the "Thread" link at the top of the "View Single Post" page you are taken to the "_ff_" which couldn't be contained in a single post.


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## Carolinian

*More Festiva slime - from the Nassau Tribune*

http://www.tribune242.com/sports/01192010_Complain_business_Page1-2


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## Sou13

*Split weeks at Southcape Resort*

Today I found a publication dated "Summer 1983" which addresses float week reservations and split weeks at Southcape Resort, a practice which has been in place for more than a quarter of a century.  I will email anyone a copy of this publication upon request.


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## carl2591

SO i guess FestivaRep has flown the coop.. ?? have not seen a post since aug 09 or so.. 

hard to defend these guys all the time i guess.. oh well "another one bites the dust"  as the song goes..


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## ecwinch

In this post, she outlines that she will not be posting anymore.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=776993&postcount=1052

I would agree that the track record for industry reps participating on TUG is dismal.


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## carl2591

thanks.. seem like i missed that part..

i guess the kitchen got to hot for her to handle or the boss decided too much company laundry had been drug through the light and it was better to keep it in hiding..

they come on here thinking we are the same smucks they are sellling to everyday and will have there way...  

guess NOT..


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## FestivaRep

While it’s true that I’ve stopped being active on this forum, it’s not because of any of the reasons listed by Carl2591. 

Actually, I do periodically catch up on reading the postings here, as do several of our executives, but there are so many opinions constantly providing misinformation that we’ve found it best to resolve issues with individuals who will contact us directly so that we have clear communication.

Once again, we invite any Festiva owner or FAC member on this forum to contact us directly at comments@festiva.travel to begin a productive conversation that will resolve your issue or to schedule a visit to meet with us personally at our headquarters in Asheville.


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## FestivaRep

Tombo, 
If your primary issue is that phase 2 of BRV has Festiva employees on the board, then we can offer to trade your deed for one in phase 1 of BRV, which is an owner-controlled HOA. 

I've tried reaching out to you to resolve your issues directly to no avail, and if this is something you are interested in, please contact me directly at comments@festiva.travel.

Keep in mind that (1) Festiva employees only took places on the board at BRV-2 that were previously occupied by Wyndham when we acquired the resort and (2) the renovations in three buildings in phase 2 have been very well-received by owners and are nearing completion.

I hope to hear from you soon.



tombo said:


> Festiva owns 80 percent of the vote in phase 2 and votes their votes to place their own employees and officers as board members. Because the resort's board members are predominatelly Festiva employees, the board can vote to raise MF's, raise Mgt fees paid to Festiva, and they can vote to assess. There is nothing the fixed week owners (like myself) or Festiva members can do about it except pay the increased fees or sell. The board can't be voted off by fixed week owners because we don't have enough votes and the Festiva Club members don't own anything so they don't even get a vote. Festiva control everything at the resort because they control the HOA's.
> 
> That is how they can force their financial problems onto fixed week owners.


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## e.bram

*Responce from FestivaRep*

"The fees are determined based on setting a 'break -even' budget. The fees plus any additional revenue (rental income, etc.) must equal the sum of the club expenses. 

The per point fee for each member is designed to cover their share of the cost of the weeks in the club and the base fee is designed to cover the remaining operating expenses. The Club members do not have a say in how the fees are calculated."
"Originally Posted by FestivaRep 
There are 27 resorts within the Festiva network, and the maintenance fees vary between the different resorts and unit sizes, so it's possible that an Adventure Club maintenance fee could be more than certain resorts' fees, and less than others. 

Keep in mind that an Adventure Club membership is not bound to one particular resort, season or unit size as far as the members' usage goes. 

Because FAC members can make multiple reservations per year and have such flexibility with stay lengths, unit size, season and the resorts they visit, some administrative costs built into the club maintenance fees may be higher than those of resort weeks owners, but in return club members get more options and flexibility. 

A club membership vs. week ownership really comes down to the vacation habits/needs/desires of the individual owners and members, as some are quite happy returning to the same place during the same time year after year, but many enjoy the flexibility and variety of the club."

Need I say more? They can't even tell you the MFs. Suppose the Festiva execs take the Wall Street and bank route with their "bonuses".Members have nothing to say. Yag


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## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> Tombo,
> If your primary issue is that phase 2 of BRV has Festiva employees on the board, then we can offer to trade your deed for one in phase 1 of BRV, which is an owner-controlled HOA.
> 
> I've tried reaching out to you to resolve your issues directly to no avail, and if this is something you are interested in, please contact me directly at comments@festiva.travel.
> 
> Keep in mind that (1) Festiva employees only took places on the board at BRV-2 that were previously occupied by Wyndham when we acquired the resort and (2) the renovations in three buildings in phase 2 have been very well-received by owners and are nearing completion.
> 
> I hope to hear from you soon.



The owners have not been polled about whether they like the renovations or not, at least I haven't received any questionnaire asking what I liked and didn't like about the renovations. I also never received a questionnaire, poll, or vote on whether us owners even wanted to renovate, how much renovation if any we wanted, or how much we thought that we should be assessed or have our MF's increased to do any renovations. I am sure that many owners like the renovations (they are very nice), but how many would have voted for the renovations if given the facts, figures, and the chance to vote? Festiva voted to renovate, they voted to raise MF's, they voted to assess, and they voted that the owners pay for the renovations they didn't get to vote on. Remember the tea party? Taxation without representation caused that revolt.

Thanks for the offer but to exchange a Phase 2 unit for a phase one unit just because Festiva took over the Phase 2 board would be a bad trade for me and a good trade for Festiva. The offers I have seen Festiva make so far to owners are always a win for Festiva and a loss for the owners IMO, and this offer to give me a phase 1 week for a Phase 2 week I own is no exception. 

Another example of a Festiva win, owner lose offer is when Festiva offers a deeded owner a chance to swap the week he owns and a lot of cash for some points. Here is how this great deal works: Festiva wants to offer owners the chance to give up their deeded weeks that they own free and clear and $3500 of their personal cash for some festiva points which will not sell for $1 on ebay. After an owner accepts Festiva's offer Festiva will own the previous owner's week free and clear, the owner will no longer own anything, the owner will be a member of a "club" for 30 years (or until the club folds), the club member will be responsible for all Maintenance and upkeep on the week that festiva now owns, the club member will now be responsible for all assessments and upgrades that festiva wants to do, and at the end of 30 years the previous owner owns nothing and is no longer even a club member, and Festiva owns the week in perpetuity which has been maintained, upgraded for 30 years by the "member". Top that off with the fact that Festiva puts it's own mgt company in place to run the resort (with no bids on Mgt fees against other mgt companies ever taken) and Festiva gets to charge any Mgt fees they see fit to charge and make even more profit off of the "members" each and every year with no chance for the "members" to throw Festiva out as mgt company and hire a more efficient and fiscally conservative mgt company EVER. It is easy to see that everything about this deal is a win for festiva and a loss for the former owner.

I am sorry, I digressed, so back to your kind offer to me. Phase 2 units are newer than Phase one, and my phase 2 unit is one of the deluxe 2 bed rooms which is over 1400 square feet as opposed to a phase one 2 bed room which is older and smaller (I think about 1300 square feet). To swap to phase one would not make sense because I would be trading a larger newer unit for a smaller older unit. I understand why you would want me to trade, but I refuse to give up something of greater value to get something of lesser value. That would be like giving you a week I own and $3500 for some points. That reminds me of Jack giving up a valuable cow for some worthless magic beans. The beans did actually work in that fairy tale, but I am too old and wise to believe in fairy tales or that Festiva points will get me prime summer or winter weeks each and every year. I do know for sure that my FIXED weeks will get me what I want each and every year, no fairy tales or pixie dust, just pure old deeded ownership.

My primary issue is that Festiva does what it wants and does not care about owners wishes, wants, or needs. Festiva only cares about Festiva and Festiva profit from everything I have seen. Before Festiva came owners could list weeks for sale at the office, since Festiva took over the office said that they are not allowed to tell anyone about any owner weeks for sale anymore. Pre Festiva you could do internal swaps if there was availability, post Festiva the staff told me that they weren't supposed to do internal swaps anymore because Festiva doesn't like it. Pre Festiva the resort did maintenance and upgrades using the reserves from the annual MF's. Post Festiva assessments and MF increases are needed to upgrade and maintain the resort according to Festiva (Wyndham maintained the resort just fine within the buget and MF's we paid). Pre festiva we received detailed annual budgets in the mail each and every year, post Festiva nothing sent to owners showing where our money was spent or where it was going to be spent (Festiva claims that they are a club and not required to give out such things). Pre Festiva the owners had input and votes on expenditures, post festiva we get a bill in the mail. Pre Festiva no expansion plans for new buildings in the woods surrounding our resort, post festiva timeshare cabins in the woods will be built (if Festiva can sell them in this economy), and the new cabins will have access to our pools, lake, and other common areas crowding our existing facilites with no vote from us.  

Did festiva take a vote of the owners to see if the majority of owners wanted to upgrade to granite counter tops and other things that aren't needed at a RUSTIC mountain resort? Not a vote, not an informal survey, not anything other than an upgrade plan hatched and implemented by Festiva with little if any owner input. Has Festiva gotten several sealed bids from numerous contractors to do the renovations so the owners can get the best price and to prevent any hint of graft or kickbacks? Nope, Festiva set up a budget and hired contactors without bids as far as us owners know. Did Festiva come in and take over the common areas claiming that festiva not the owners owned them? Yes Festiva did and the phase one board had to hire a lawyer to reclaim our pool, tennis courts, lake, and club house as our own. Even after we got legal counsel to regain control over the common areas that always should have been ours, Festiva still has the whole upstairs of the club house for their sales office and I have never seen anything in writing where Festiva pays the owners rent for using OUR clubhouse. 

I do hate that Festiva controls the Phase 2 board, but I hate even more that thanks to Festiva's legal shenanigans that this resort will never be sold out and owner controlled. Festiva will always be involved unless(or until)Festiva goes bankrupt or broke.

It is nice to hear from you again Festiva rep, but I am afraid that I will have to turn down your offer to swap my larger newer unit for an older smaller unit. I also must turn down any offers to swap my prime fixed weeks that I own for some magical points that might or might not get me a prime summer week or a prime ski week in the future. Thanks again but I will pass on all of the Festiva offers I have seen so far.

P.S. While you are making offers, if you would like to offer to remove all Festiva employees from both boards and allow the owners and members who actually pay to maintain and upgrade the resort to be the board members who control the budget and decisions at BRV, that is an offer I will gladly accept.


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## Sou13

*Thank you for the reply!*

Thank you for your reply, tombo!  It was your discussion Festiva is now managing my resort, how bad is it going to get? that inspired me to put my time and effort into fighting the "hostile" takeover of Southcape Resort.  It was also your discussion of Festiva that inspired and invited FestivaRep to begin posting to TUG.

To date more than 270 Southcape weeks have been converted to Festiva points, most of them as a result of deceptive sales practices.  Southcape owners aren't running *to* Festiva, they're running *away* from the Festiva takeover of the resort.

The latest ploy at Southcape is to have an Outfield Marketing representative at a special desk as owners and guests are checking in.  After signing a  consent form acknowldeging that they've read and will abide by the pool use rules, and signing a check-in form giving their names and email addresses as well as the # of cars in their party, they are directed to bring the private address/email info form to "Mike" at the desk, so that he can give them their parking passes.  Mike then advises them to make an appointment for a 1/2 hour "informational" meeting with the "new owners" and adds that this is not a sales meeting.

Anyone who agrees to meet with the "new owners" soon finds out that it's *not* 1/2 hour and it *is* a sales meeting, and the records show that owners are continuing to surrender their deeds to InterCity Escrow Services in return for points in the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club.

It should be obvious to everyone checking in that handing their private info over to "Mike" is an invasion of the privacy that NEVMSLLC claims to be protecting by not turning over the names and addresses of owners as required by M.G.L. 183B*.  If a "parking pass" is necessary it can and should be included in the informational packet that guests receive at check-in, and that "Mike" should not be given the addresses and email addresses of owners and guests.  Unfortunately most guests (including myself) are too compliant to realize that they have just turned over their private info to a sales representative.

_*(b) The managing entity shall keep reasonably available for inspection and copying by any time-share owner all addresses, known to it or to the developer, of all the time-share owners with the principal permanent residence address of each indicated if known. The managing entity shall revise continually the list of addresses in the light of any information it obtains, and the developer shall keep the managing entity advised of any information he has or obtains._


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## tombo

I didn't see your post until just now. I am glad that you were educated a little bit about the take over strategies of Festiva by reading my posts, and I am glad that Festiva Rep visited us here, but to be honest there is only so much that Festiva Rep can say or do because after all Festiva Rep is a Festiva employee and as such has to follow the company line. I never expected her to say Festiva is usurping the authority of owners, using a takeover strategy at our resorts, overcharging owners for MF's and renovations, or say anything else that might be true but which she can't acknowledge because she is a company employee. It was nice to hear some of her insight and one sided arguments heavily slanted to Festiva's advantage, but I always considered the source and who pays the source's bills. If I was employed by Festiva I would not post negative posts about Festiva on TUG either unless I already had another job lined up.

I am glad that my posts helped you prevent some owners at your resort from converting to Festiva points and I often read your posts about all of the work you are doing at Southscape for owners. When I check in my resort I also am told that I must attend an owner's meeting where I will learn important information regarding the changes at the resort. I decline. They call the room hour after hour, day after day, until I finally answer the phone and say NO!. They tell me that I am missing out on information that is important to all owners and by missing out my week could become worthless, etc. I tell them that I am on vacation and please don't bother me again. When they don't take no for an answer I tell them that if I take time out from my vacation to come to the lobby it will be to explain to every owners I see that Festiva Points will get zero bids on e-bay when the starting price is $1, that the points are worthless, and that they will regret forever letting Festva have their paid for for deeded week and $3000 cash for some worthless Festiva points. They finally decide to write me down as a no when it reaches that point.

It isn't just your resort where they are tricking people into attending meetings through lies and half truths,  it occurs at every resort they become a part of as far as I know. They won't allow you to have access to the names, addresses, and phone numbers of the owners because they need the owners to be uninformed in order to have the best chance of getting them to swap their deeded weeks and cash for Festiva Points. If they gave you the addresses you could mail informative letters to the owners and all but kill their sales of point conversions at the resort. Of course they tell you that they can't give it to you because of privacy laws, but they give the names addresses, week(s) owned, etc to the sales force to prey upon the ill informed. The best you can do is warn all that you can before they screw up and convert a deeded week they can use into a points membership that might or might not get them a week that they can use each year.

Good luck and don't give up the fight. Every person you educate about deeded ownership at Southscape versus becoming a points member before it is too late, is a person that will undoubtably remain an owner at Southscape rather than a Festiva Points member, and they are someone who will owe you a great debt of gratitude for preventing them from making a horrible mistake. I know you have saved many so far, but there are many more to save. Not only are you saving individuals from making a horrible mistake, every owner who doesn't convert remains an owner and that is one less week owned by Festiva at your resort.

I hope you win your battles and that it doesn't take too much of your time and energy. I also hope that the owners appreciate what you have done and that they thank you profuselly for all of the hard work, time, and effort you have invested in Southscape for the good of all owners.


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## tombo

http://sandcastleowners.blogspot.com/

I was cleaning out my old e-mails and came across this blog from 2009 about Festiva backing down from illegally assessing the owners at the Atrium resort in St Maarten because they were sued by the owners. Here is a quote from the above blog: "Did you just understand what was written there? They had to be sued in order to behave legally". Rather than honor the contract that the owners had when they purchased their weeks, Festiva raised MF's more than the contract allowed and assessed at will as though the contracts didn't exist. The owners had to hire a lawyer to stop Festiva from doing what they knew they weren't supposed to do. The owners tried contacting Festiva to stop them from ilegally increasing their MF's, but in typical Festiva business model they do what is profitable for Festiva while ignoring the owner's wishes, and in this case while ignoring legal contracts too.

The Atrium was not an isolated or unusual occurrence where consumers had to sue to stop bad business practices. Festiva continued to market deceptivelly in Missouri after many complaints of deceptive marketing until the Missouri Attorney General sued them. They didn't stop because it was the right thing to do, they stopped because they were sued and it cost them money (http://www.legalnewsline.com/news/213804-time-share-company-agrees-to-pay-339000-settlement ) . Festiva raised MF's and assessed at the Atrium Resort while ignoring owner's complaints and while ignoring the legally binding contracts until the owner's sued.Once again Festiva does the right thing only after being sued. Currently at many other resorts (Southscape, Sandcastle, Church Street Inn, Blue Ridge Village, etc) they have owners up in arms about renovations, increases in MF's, and assessments with no vote or input by owners. All of these resort had control taken over by Festiva or else are in the process of being taken over by Festiva through the purchase of HOA owned weeks, developer weeks, and by converting deeded weeks to Festiva owned weeks by convincing the prior owners into giving up their deeded week and instead becoming a "points club member". When Festiva decides to do renovations at a resort after they gain control (whether owners want to renovate or not), no budgets are submitted to or approved by owners, and no bids are submitted by the contractors before being chosen to do the renovations from everything I have read and seen. They place themselves as the management company at the resort and charge whatever management fees they see fit to charge, the raise MF's to cover their expenses and renovations, and they take over the boards assuring that they can't be voted out as the mgt company. What a deal for Festiva and a disaster for the owners who have to pay all the bills and keep Festiva profitable through MF increases and assessments they don't get to vote on.

Why would anyone want to be a member of the Festiva Club when the company has showed again and again that they will charge owners ever increasing MF's and assessment after assessment until sued and forced to legally cease such actions? I assume that no informed consumer would buy Festiva points when given their past and current actions, and the comments below simply show more examples of why you shouldn't buy Festiva Points or convert your deeded week(s) to festiva points under any circumstance IMO.

Here is a Festiva complaints web site:
http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/festiva-resorts-c170519.html

Customer who was talked into giving up deeded week and $3000 for festiva Points:
http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/deed-with-misleading-tactics-c309342.html

And another person unhappy with the misleading sales tactics Festiva uses:
http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/phone-sales-tactics-c301098.html

Another customer tricked into swapping to Festiva points detailing their loss of use of a week they used to own:
http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/additional-reservation-charges-c241327.html

There are many more. Read them all and look very hard for any positive remarks about Festiva's marketing, Festiva's customer service, or Festiva points. 

Unfortunatelly barring a lawsuit that will cost Festiva money they seem to run over owners and do what they want while making the owners pay to upgrade the resorts that festiva owns more and more of each time some poor unsuspecting owner is tricked into giving festiva theur deeded week in exchange for some worthless points and $3000.

 Anyone reading this please DO NOT GIVE FESTIVA YOUR WEEK IN EXCHANGE FOR FESTIVA POINTS! IF YOU DO YOU WILL REGRET IT FOREVER!


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## Sou13

*FestivaRep*

I noticed that Festiva Rep has been replying to complaints on the complaintsboard! Thanks, tombo!


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## Fig

For anyone considering going with Festiva here is yet another fan page to consider. It seems to be updated on a regular basis with first person accounts of what happens when you "upgrade" to points. Buyer beware! http://festiva-resorts.pissedconsumer.com/


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## strandlover

Fig!  I think you saved my life!  I was looking at buying a TS at a Festiva resort in Myrtle Beach.  I used the pissedconsumer.com URL and lo and behold Peppertree in NMB is one of their's.

Thank you! Thank you!


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## tombo

strandlover said:


> Fig!  I think you saved my life!  I was looking at buying a TS at a Festiva resort in Myrtle Beach.  I used the pissedconsumer.com URL and lo and behold Peppertree in NMB is one of their's.
> 
> Thank you! Thank you!



You dodged a big bullet thanks to Fig's post. This is why we must continue to post here on TUG and other places to save unsuspecting, uninformed buyers from making a horrible mistake and buying Festiva points or swapping the deeded week they own for Festiva Points.

 Make no mistake, I have yet to visit a Festiva resort I didn't like (location, amenities, size of rooms, etc), but that is how they survive by selling worthless points at places you would like to vacation. The problem is that once you buy a membership and some "points" you rent but never own, you might never actually get to stay at that wonderful resort during a time of year that you would like to vacation. 

Many owners like myself own prime fixed weeks which we won't let Festiva get their hands on (not giving them a prime deeded week for some useless points), so many of the weeks Festiva owns at these resorts are off season weeks few people want to use. If you own 1 million Festiva points and Festiva doesn't own a 4th of July week at a resort you want to stay at for 4th of July (most prime weeks are owned by deeded owners who won't swap them for Festiva points), then you will never get to vaction there. If you buy and additional million Festiva points and Festiva doesn't own a 4th of July week at the resort, you will never stay there for the 4th of July week. If they actually own a few 4th of July weeks then you and everyone else who bought Festiva points from the salesman who promised that you could stay at any of their resorts easily anytime you want will be fighting for the limited prime weeks owned by Festiva.

Purchasing Festiva points (either retail or swapping your deeded weeks for points) is something I strongly recommend against. Read this thread from beginning to end and research across the web and you will see how bad of a move it would be. You will be obligated to pay Festiva's MF's for 30 years for some points that will not get you into the resort you want at the time of year you want to go. Once you own these points you can not sell them for $1 on e-bay (numerous auctions have ended with no bids), you can't vacation when you want or where you want, and you will be out a lot of money.

Congratulations to strandlover for saving themselves a lot of misery thanks to Fig. Now we must keep posting to save as many others as we can from making a huge mistake and becoming members of Festiva's adventure club. We are saving people one post at a time!


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## timeos2

*The title changed*

I'm still surprised that the title of this thread at some point got changed from "Festiva takes over resort - how bad will it get?"  to the less meaningful "Festiva takes over resort".  

It is a shame that any company is deemed to have "taken over" a resort that has been sold to individual owners and should be independent and worse that they then wage a war of misrepresentation to entice owners to pay more to get less. This isn't limited to Festiva by any means  but they are a prime example of the process.  All owners should be aware and not fall for this type of misleading and costly (to them) "opportunity" and make use of what they already own.  The takers depend on uninformed owners to make the scheme work.


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## tombo

timeos2 said:


> I'm still surprised that the title of this thread at some point got changed from "Festiva takes over resort - how bad will it get?"  to the less meaningful "Festiva takes over resort".
> 
> It is a shame that any company is deemed to have "taken over" a resort that has been sold to individual owners and should be independent and worse that they then wage a war of misrepresentation to entice owners to pay more to get less. This isn't limited to Festiva by any means  but they are a prime example of the process.  All owners should be aware and not fall for this type of misleading and costly (to them) "opportunity" and make use of what they already own.  The takers depend on uninformed owners to make the scheme work.



Someone decided that this thread should be in the eastern forum rather than in the points forum where I posted when I started it and they moved it. Festiva is a points sales organization with resorts in St Maarten, New Orleans, Branson, Gatlinburg, Northern Cancun,wisconsin Dells Wisconsin, and other places besides the east coast. They sell points at all of these locations whether they are on the east coast or not, and whether they are in the US or not. The correct place IMO to discuss this thread about Festiva and their takeover of resorts through the sale of mpoints is in the points forum.

I complained when it was originally moved and the title of the thread I started was changed and I would like to voice my complaint to TUG again. Why the censorship? Why change the title I started the thread with? It contains no offensive language. Why move my thread from the points forum where I put it to discuss the sale of Festiva points as a means to usurp control of the resorts away from the owners at ALL of their resorts, not just those in the eastern US? 

Would someone please explain to me how a points group like Festiva with resorts in many locations not associated with the east coast becomes relegated to the east coast forum. Don't you allow discussions of Mariott resorts in Orlando to be discussed in the Florida section even though there is also a Marriott section? If someone asks which resort in Orlando is the best should the whole thread be moved to Marriott once discussions turn to Marriott resorts (no because all discussion in the thread are not about Marriott)? Once Festiva's takeover at the Atrium in St Maarten was discussed should this thread have been move to the caribbean forum? If we discuss points sales by Festiva in Branson or New Orleans should the whole thread be moved to the central US forum? The main them of this thread is Festiva taking over resorts from owners by selling Festiva POINTS, and the best place to have this discussion is in the points forum.


This discussion is not focused on a specific resort like Sandcastle, Southscape, or some other eastern US resort whic actually have their own threads (rightfully so) discussing specific problems with Festiva and the sales companies selling Festiva at their resort. This is a discussion about the festiva organization taking over resorts all over the US and caribbean by selling and installing their POINTS system. If someone considering a purchase of Festiva Points in St Maarten looks in the carribbean forum they will not find this thread and neither will people considering new Orleans or Branson Festiva points if they look in the central US forum. These potential buyers will also not find any information about Festiva POINTS if they look for it in the points forum. Why in the world would they look in the eastern US forum to find out about points they are considering buying in St Maarten, New Orleans, Branson, etc?

Please move this thread back to the points forum under the original title. If people want to discuss east coast festiva resorts specificallly there are at least 2 other threads currently on the east coast forum. This thread is about Festiva selling points and taking over resorts all over the western hemisphere, so it needs to be discussed under the Points forum. I hope that you will move it back there under my original title.

Thanks,
Tombo


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## e.bram

*Just curious*

Does anybody what you tenure is vis a vis Festiva points. Cna you bail out and if not what is grip on you. Also, can you join Festiva as a LLS, corp or trust or do you have to be a natural person.


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## tombo

e.bram said:


> Does anybody what you tenure is vis a vis Festiva points. Cna you bail out and if not what is grip on you. Also, can you join Festiva as a LLS, corp or trust or do you have to be a natural person.



If you become a Festiva Points Club Member, you sign a contract for 30 years. The contract obligates you to pay any assessments and MF's that Festiva decides to charge it's members for the 30 year period or else you will be placed in collections just the same as if you owned. When you buy Festiva Points you get all of the expenses associated with ownership with none of the rights (you own nothing, no right to vote,no annual financial statements, no say in fees or assessments, no board members to represent you, etc, etc, etc). 

Do not buy Festiva points under any circumstances, and by all means do not let Festiva to swap you some of their worthless points for a deeded week you own, not even if they offer to do it for free. Heck I told the last slaesman that called me that I wouldn't give them my week and get Festiva points in exchange if they paid me $3000 cash. I said that I knew that I would be stuck as a Festiva Club member for 30 years and the MF's and assessments would eat up the $3000 they paid me long before I could get out of their "club". When Festiva calls and tries to sell you FAC Points, just say NO!!!!


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## Fig

strandlover said:


> Fig!  I think you saved my life!  I was looking at buying a TS at a Festiva resort in Myrtle Beach.  I used the pissedconsumer.com URL and lo and behold Peppertree in NMB is one of their's.
> 
> Thank you! Thank you!



These companies and their practices need to be known by more people. You will notice a Festiva Rep furiously posting to each complaint as if it the first and only of its kind and sometimes only a few hours pass and someone else chimes in with an amazingly similar story as these sales practices get revealed again and again and again. Ask yourself this, if as Festiva Rep asserts, these are exceptions, why do the same stories of scams and rip-offs get posted over several years on multiple boards by so many people? If you have not had the chance, you may also want to post to http://festiva-resorts.pissedconsumer.com/ and thank them, afterall, they did all the work...and paid dearly...I only posted a link. Keep the information flowing and maybe more people can be helped.


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## Fig

Sou13 said:


> I noticed that Festiva Rep has been replying to complaints on the complaintsboard! Thanks, tombo!



The poetic justice of Festiva Rep replying to complaints is that it creates more traffic to the site and ups the Google rating. I plugged in Festiva Resorts and I think this is like the number 4 site that comes up. http://festiva-resorts.pissedconsumer.com/ So....Festiva Rep monitoring the site like a hawk and posting just causes more traffic and relevance among the search engines and ensures that when people plug Festiva Resorts in a search they get some pretty shocking news. For the heck of it, why doesn't everyone reading  this post visit  http://festiva-resorts.pissedconsumer.com/ now and then, of course to keep up with Festiva's doings and if the byproduct is we boost the search ratings, so be it. Hey, Festiva Rep, visit us every now and then too...TUG can use the traffic!


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## Sou13

*There are two "Festiva" discussions that got moved*

There are two "Festiva" discussions that got moved from points system forums to this one.  The one started by tombo is Festiva is now managing my resort, how bad is it going to get? and was very helpful to me as I waged war against the Festiva takeover of Southcape Resort.

The title of this one got changed, and later the discussion was moved from the Point System Discussions forum to this one.  The former discussion was about Festiva taking over management of tombo's resort, while this one started out asking for specifics about the kinds of offers that were being made by Outfield Marketing in their campaign to convert deeded owners to the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club.

I have even tried contacting the administrator about the move, to no avail. I agree with tombo that neither of these discussions belong in this forum.


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## AwayWeGo

*OutField Marketing?  What Is Up With OutField Marketing?*




Sou13 said:


> The former discussion was about Festiva taking over management of tombo's resort, while this one started out asking for specifics about the kinds of offers that were being made by Outfield Marketing in their campaign to convert deeded owners to the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club.


Shux, according to a number of TUG-BBS entries the OutField Marketing people are also cold-calling DRI timeshare owners & flogging DRI points & DRI trusts & I don't know what-all. 

What is the connection between OutField Marketing & these various timeshare companies ? 

How did OutField get connected with Festiva ?

Did Festiva hire OutField ? 

Or are the OutField people simply free-lancing ? 

Aren't the Festiva suits concerned that OutField's shenanigans will damage the brand ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Fig

AwayWeGo said:


> Shux, according to a number of TUG-BBS entries the OutField Marketing people are also cold-calling DRI timeshare owners & flogging DRI points & DRI trusts & I don't know what-all.
> 
> What is the connection between OutField Marketing & these various timeshare companies ?
> 
> How did OutField get connected with Festiva ?
> 
> Did Festiva hire OutField ?
> 
> Or are the OutField people simply free-lancing ?
> 
> Aren't the Festiva suits concerned that OutField's shenanigans will damage the brand ?
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


You ask some good questions. Outfield Marketing is kind of murky. Their CEO, Thomas Franks,  has been cited by the FCC for marketing practices in the past. http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2002/EB-02-TC-256.html

Their legal address is supposed to be TX. But if you Google that address all you can see in Google street view is a bunch of run down shacks at 135 E Hickory Street in Denton TX. (Denton is pretty far from the CEO who lives on the East Coast.) When I asked Festiva Rep where their address was, she gave me the address of medical billing company on the same street. Cliff Hagberg, who uses Outfield to sell Festiva points, swore up and down that 135 E Hickory was not Outfield's address...yet he listed that under penalty of perjury on legal documents.

Steve Lamantia, an Outfield key player (identified as Festiva Rep in the post)  http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html was in MO around the time Festiva was being investigated by the AG, getting thrown out of houses for doing same old stuff people are complaining about years later...some things never change, but luckily through the internet a few more folks find out about them.


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## e.bram

Again. Can Festiva points membership be in the name of a LLC, corp or trust. You could buy them on ebay(for $1.00) and stiff them.(Ha, Ha)


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## licekwallion

Sounds cool..!! Will they provide all lot of conveyance for those or we should have our own lawyer ..!! :whoopie: 

Wallion..!!

.


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## tombo

Sorry Sou13, I posted on the wrong one by accident.


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## Sou13

*Wrong, tombo!*

No, tombo, this isn't the one started by you.  Please see my above reference to the one you started, which still exists, and please don't mess with this one, although I greatly appreciate your contributions to any and all discussions of the way Festiva moves in and takes over resorts!


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## Sou13

*Southcape Resort on YouTube*

Having Southcape Resort annexed into the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club family of resorts has resulted in this YouTube video.


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## Sou13

Sou13 said:


> Having Southcape Resort annexed into the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club family of resorts has resulted in this YouTube video.


It was working the day I posted it here, dunno why it's not working for me today tho.


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## Sou13

*"Happy" FAC members?*



Fig said:


> These companies and their practices need to be known by more people. You will notice a Festiva Rep furiously posting to each complaint as if it the first and only of its kind and sometimes only a few hours pass and someone else chimes in with an amazingly similar story as these sales practices get revealed again and again and again. Ask yourself this, if as Festiva Rep asserts, these are exceptions, why do the same stories of scams and rip-offs get posted over several years on multiple boards by so many people? If you have not had the chance, you may also want to post to http://festiva-resorts.pissedconsumer.com/ and thank them, afterall, they did all the work...and paid dearly...I only posted a link. Keep the information flowing and maybe more people can be helped.


Are there any "happy" FAC members?  Please post here!


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## Sou13

From an "unhappy" deeded owner whose resort has been taken over by Festiva:

Isn't it nice that they can make themselves the mgt team, raise the management fees the resort charges the owners, and no matter how expensive they get you can't shop for a more efficient mgt company and get rid of them because they control the board and the votes. Not only are they making money as the mgt company,  they are at the same time making money converting weeks to points, selling points, and renovating the resort (which they contract without sealed bids). They take over and make money everyway they can, and all of their profit comes on the backs of the current and future owners. Gee, why is Festiva so hated by owners?


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## e.bram

Time for sub-prime weeks owners to BAIL!!!


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## Sou13

How do you do that?


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## Holly

I think that he's suggesting that you stop paying maintenance and ruin your credit rating.  Advice worth about what you paid for it.


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## Sou13

An "unhappy" deeded Rangeley Lakes owner shared this about the Festiva takeover:

Rangeley purchased the inventory for pennies on the dollar.  And then they too were the management company adding more to the budget (of course if they get the delinquent units that is income for the resort)  We too had a very capable to say the least staff and although they have remained they are no longer employees of Rangeley Lake Resort but of Festiva Management, (we were not happy about that).  Kevin Blocker from Festiva has been at the past 2 homeowners meetings with us and has actually been very decent.  All that said we are very grateful we have a homeowners association with all owners on it.  Granted the president is the one who jumped into bed (so to speak) with Festiva.  I just don’t see the logic of Festiva Adventure Club.  You can use their resorts if you buy into the club and relinquish your deed but  they only have 30 resorts you can go online and see them.  If you currently do any exchanging  you will not be happy.  The maintenance fees are higher than what people currently pay.  Definitely worth listening to so you can inform others.  Some people are jumping without knowing what they are jumping into.


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## rickandcindy23

Just got an assessment for our Blue Ridge Village 2 bed week.  The assessment is $570, $190 per year for 3 years.  The place must be falling down! :annoyed:


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## Sou13

An "unhappy" Sandcastle Resort owner reported:

(His) father bought his one-bedroom and three studio deeds in the 1970s and used his weeks for family vacations. When he converted to Festiva, he paid a $2,000 sign-up fee and received 12,900 points. But when he now goes to Festiva to reserve a week at another resort, (he) says it costs 4,600 points for a two-bedroom unit. Under the previous system, owners could exchange their Sandcastle weeks for a larger unit than their deed called for if it was available.

“They charge about 4,600 for a two-bedroom. So in order to get an exchange, my father has to use up a good portion of his points. We’d be lucky to get three weeks,” (he) said about the Festiva system.http://www.wickedlocal.com/capecod/...re-owners-consider-new-resort-policies-unjust


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## tombo

rickandcindy23 said:


> Just got an assessment for our Blue Ridge Village 2 bed week.  The assessment is $570, $190 per year for 3 years.  The place must be falling down! :annoyed:



I have a good news bad news post for you. The bad news is that we were assessed. The good news is that this assessment is for Phase One units which are controlled by an owner controlled board and vote. Be glad you own in Phase one because Phase 2 is 70% to 80% controlled by Festiva. I own both Phase one and Phase two weeks, and Phase two is newer, but you have no say in what is done since Festiva controls everything. The Phase one Board had to sue Festiva (and won) to get the common areas back in the hands of the owners rather than in having Festiva claim ownership of all common areas. The phase one board doesn't lay down, they fight against festiva for owner's rights. The phase one is owner friendly and if you call the phone number on the letter you can talk to the president and he can explain any questions you might have. If you have lost the letter PM me and I will give you his name and phone number. He is a really nice guy.

By the way, there is more good news. I talked to the president of the Board and he explained the assessments are for renovations being done to all buildings on a building by building basis. After being renovated all units will have granite counter tops, new furniture, new curtains, new paint, new flooring, etc.


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## rickandcindy23

Great news, Tombo.  I don't mind assessments, as long as the board is in control, and not the management company.  I will happily pay this assessment and will hopefully get to see the renovations next year.  I don't plan to deposit our week.


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## Sou13

*Ponzi scheme?  Churning?*

Posted to *Southcape Resort* P. 52:

_*NEVS bought on 9.4.2008 and now is selling to Festiva all the timeshare weeks on Units 32 thru 36.  (5X52=260)  These include all the 'red' weeks for these units, as well as the offseason weeks.  In addition, they are selling an additional 290 timeshare weeks, mostly offseason, for a total inventory of 550 timeshare weeks. 

Festiva representatives attending Southcape Resort and Club Community Association, Inc. annual meeting on 5.15.10:  Rich Hartnett, Director of Sales operations, and Kevin Blockert, Director of Board Operations (the Timeshare Resort Operating Management) 

Rich told us that Festiva currently owns positions in 30 resorts worlwide, and considers any property located on Cape Cod, as an attractive target.  The aim of Festiva is to convert as many as possible of deeded timeshare weeks, into Festiva Resort Vacation Club Exchange Point membership.  The point system works on a first come first served basis;  those who register first, get a choice of the most desirable weeks.  As the inventory of available weeks declines each year, club members get less and less desirable weeks. 

There will be additional incentives for those who do not get desirable weeks;  an additional week or two for free during the offseason weeks. 

This enables the use of most of the offseason weeks, and solves a major problem for developers of deeded timeshare resorts.  Vacation Club members pay an upfront fee, and an annual fee for as long as they remain as members.  30 or more resorts enables the operators greater flexibility in operating the resorts. 

Every timeshare week owned by the Festiva Resort Vacation Club will pay the same maintenance paid by the other deeded timeshare owners.  

Major concerns:
1.  Rich said he expected that the deeded titles to timeshare weeks 'owned' by delinquent owners (those who have not paid the maintenance fees, the special assessment, and the penalties), approx. 650 owners, will become the property of Festiva, and will become part of the Festiva Resort Vacation Club Point System.  Those timeshare weeks are a part of the Southcape Resort and Club Community Association, Inc., and it definitely would not be in the best interest of the deeded timeshare owners to allow the current self-appointed Trustees, to vote for such action. This would give majority vote to Festiva, and is illegal as it does not represent the best interest of the deeded owners. 

2.  Kevin told us that management fees would rise from the current 10% (5% under Bob and Vince) of the operating budget, to 13%, excluding legal and accounting fees.  We are adding a layer of management to our very capable existing staff. 
*_
This doesn't make sense.  If Festiva wants weeks at Southcape, why underwrite a mortgage for twice what NEVS paid for Southcape and Sandcastle/Royal Coachman and enter into some sort of confidential contractual agreement with NEVMS and Outfield Marketing to sell conversions of deeded weeks to points?  Why not just offer to take deeded weeks off the hands of delinquent owners or owners who want out of their deeds?  I for one would have considered signing a quitclaim for $1 if Festiva wants my week badly enough to pay the registration fees.

Furthermore, by negotiating a "sale" of the 550 NEVS weeks, Festiva will have to pay not only the "sale" price but a State Excise Tax which in the case of the $1.2 million sale of the unsold Southcape and Sandcastle/Royal Coachman weeks was $6,840.00 and has been subject to a rate increase since then if I'm not mistaken!  

So now Festiva has paid New England Vacation Services *$1,000,000* for the 550 weeks and *6,120.00* Excise Tax as well as underwriting a $300,000 mortgage to NEVS!

BTW I was mistaken about the sale price of the 550 weeks.  I thought I heard $700,000 but that must have been in reference to something else.  NEVS paid *$1.2 million* for the unsold weeks at two resorts and was then able to sell off the 550 Southcape weeks for *$1 million*!  Furthermore, there was no need for a $2.5 million mortgage, since the $400 special assessment for renovations and upgrades was put on the backs of the deeded weeks owners, while Clifford Hagberg collected a tidy sum from both resorts for "administrative" fees!

So there you have it.  This is how Festiva takes over resorts, and how Clifford Hagberg operates.


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## tombo

rickandcindy23 said:


> Great news, Tombo.  I don't mind assessments, as long as the board is in control, and not the management company.  I will happily pay this assessment and will hopefully get to see the renovations next year.  I don't plan to deposit our week.



If you call the resort or the HOA president they can tell you which buildings are scheduled to be renovated by what dates. They are doing one bldg, then another, then another, until all are finished, and they have a schedule and timeframe that each bldg should be fnished by. If you contact the resort or Board president you should know whether your building/unit will be renovated by the time you arrive next year. I love this resort and area, I just dislike Festiva. 

If you have never been to Blue Ridge Village or have any questions about the area PM me and I will e-mail you a list I have compiled of things to do in the area. I love this area in the summer and winter, but summer here is my favorite. When it is a miserable 96 degrees here at home, the highs will typically be in the 70's in this area. It is a heat wave when it gets into the low 80's. You hike, picnic, swim, golf, do whatever outdoor activity you enjoy and you are comfortable, not passing out from the heat.If I was wealthy I would buy a summer home in the North Carolina high country and spend my  summers here, with breaks spent vacationing at the beach, however after a week or 2 at the beach I would be returning to the cool,comfortable High Country climate to spend the majority of my summer.


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## Sou13

Here is the link to the discussion of the changes at Blue Ridge Village:
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70318&page=12

*This* discussion (*Festiva takes over resort*) is about how Festiva takes over control.  The earlier one is about what happens when Festiva takes over the management, which is what happened at Blue Ridge Village.

The post you ignored is my earlier post about what has happened at Southcape Resort and will probably be happening at Sandcastle, and how it was accomplished.  Where does Festiva Development get the money to buy the unsold inventory at resorts that included Rangeley Lake in Maine and Southcape in MA?  From the "pool" who have no control over MF increases, that's where!


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## Sou13

*Happy Festiva takeover*

I've heard from a long-time Southcape deeded week owner who spent week 25, a fixed "red" week, at Southcape since Festiva paid New England Vacation Services $1 million for the 550 unsold weeks.  The price to convert to FAC has risen from $3185 to $5000 and the annual Club MF is $758 for a "red" week.

It is my understanding that the conversion cost is the same regardless of how many points your week is worth, but in the case of a "red" week it is worth 4300 points which is why the Club MF is higher than the MF for Southcape deeded weeks owners.

I checked the Town of Mashpee Assessor's Online Database to find out the assessed value of each of the 55 condo units (To do this, enter "950" in "LOC1" and "Falmouth" in "LOCATION").  If Festiva owns all of units 32-36 they paid $1 million for condo units assessed at $1.25 million, and that's not all they got for $1 million!

What remains to be seen is whether these units will be sold for points or year-round residence, which Barh and Woods had tried in the early 90s.


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## e.bram

Is Festiva paying MFs on these 550 units bought from NEVS?


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## Sou13

*Reply to e.bram*

Festiva claims to be responsible for maintenace fees and special assessments in all the weeks they own or have been converted to the FAC.  That may look good at first but is it really a good thing to have Festiva responsible for MFs for at least 825 weeks?  There should be no more special assessments if all those MFs are going to be paid, but now we'll have all kinds of FAC members staying at Southcape because they can't use their points anywhere else, and with all that money in the reserve account, we'll be looking at renovations, upgrades, and all kinds of new ideas that will soon lose their luster when the bills come in or they don't prove to be keeping a lid on the operating expenses.

We also have new people contacting deeded weeks owners, this time by telephone before they ever set foot on the resort.  It's still OK for Festiva to have the owners list that has been denied to owners who want to have a say in who has a say at Southcape!


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## e.bram

Sou13:
Better to have Festiva paying than NEVS not!!!! Nothing could be worse than not paying, bad as Festiva might be.


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## Sou13

*The Wrong Club is a “Strangler Fig”*

There's an article in the July/August issue of Timesharing Today that compares these "points" clubs to a "Strangler Fig":

The Wrong Club is a “Strangler Fig”  - 

A marketing group selling club memberships in your association can be very beneficial. In the beginning they can be small and unassuming. Yet if they continue to grow without any control, you may find they are choking the original membership out of what they once had. If you’re involved with a club concept in your association, there are ways to know if they are good supporters or if they have other self-serving interests. . ..... Read More... 

If you subscribe you get access to all previous online issues, which should give you access to this article by the next issue if not before.


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## Sou13

*"Concierge Services" now telemarketing for Festiva*

One evening this week while I was watching primetime TV I got a call from "Concierge Services" calling on behalf of "Festiva" whatever.  I said "No, thank you!" and hung up, not even giving the caller a chance to explain how he got my telephone #.  I later regretted that I hadn't given the caller the time of day (primetime TV) because I try to at least find out how the caller got my #.

This a.m. I was expecting a call from someone else but when the caller identified herself as "Concierge Services" I asked how she had gotten my telephone #.  She suggested that I may have attended a timeshare seminar in the past, and I acknowledged that I had.  She went on to try to interest me in a 3-day 2-night stay at a resort and free airfare to get there.  What was the cost of this "free" trip?  I'd have to book a 90-minute seminar at a resort at 950 Falmouth Road, Mashpee, MA.  I didn't get to the part about how soon I'd have to attend this seminar because I stopped her and asked what the requirements are for qualifying for the free trip.  She gave me the three requirements:

If I'm  married, my spouse must attend with me.  If I'm not married, someone in my household has to attend with me.

My household must have an income of at least $50,000 per year.

I must be between the ages of 25-70.

I didn't ask the name of the resort because I knew that I don't qualify.  But of course I recognized the address as that of Southcape Resort.

I tried to find out more about "Concierge Services" but that's too common a name to track down on the Internet.  One of the sites was "adult-only" content.

She also asked me whether I'd ever used the services of a company whose name has slipped my mind (my notes aren't here with me).  Having used that service was not one of the three requirements.

Has anyone else received a call from "Concierge Services"?  What's the catch?  Is it worth the trip to "Southcape Resort, a Festiva Resort" in Mashpee?


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## Fig

Sou13 said:


> One evening this week while I was watching primetime TV I got a call from "Concierge Services" calling on behalf of "Festiva" whatever.  I said "No, thank you!" and hung up, not even giving the caller a chance to explain how he got my telephone #.  I later regretted that I hadn't given the caller the time of day (primetime TV) because I try to at least find out how the caller got my #.
> 
> This a.m. I was expecting a call from someone else but when the caller identified herself as "Concierge Services" I asked how she had gotten my telephone #.  She suggested that I may have attended a timeshare seminar in the past, and I acknowledged that I had.  She went on to try to interest me in a 3-day 2-night stay at a resort and free airfare to get there.  What was the cost of this "free" trip?  I'd have to book a 90-minute seminar at a resort at 950 Falmouth Road, Mashpee, MA.  I didn't get to the part about how soon I'd have to attend this seminar because I stopped her and asked what the requirements are for qualifying for the free trip.  She gave me the three requirements:
> 
> If I'm  married, my spouse must attend with me.  If I'm not married, someone in my household has to attend with me.
> 
> My household must have an income of at least $50,000 per year.
> 
> I must be between the ages of 25-70.
> 
> I didn't ask the name of the resort because I knew that I don't qualify.  But of course I recognized the address as that of Southcape Resort.
> 
> I tried to find out more about "Concierge Services" but that's too common a name to track down on the Internet.  One of the sites was "adult-only" content.
> 
> She also asked me whether I'd ever used the services of a company whose name has slipped my mind (my notes aren't here with me).  Having used that service was not one of the three requirements.
> 
> Has anyone else received a call from "Concierge Services"?  What's the catch?  Is it worth the trip to "Southcape Resort, a Festiva Resort" in Mashpee?



Let's think this out...Festiva is going to pick up airfare and give away a free weekend for listening to a 90 minute pitch?

More likely than not they have "hired" a company to try and generate some leads for them. The company will dissolve if any legal suits come out of it and Festiva will claim "oh, that was not us...that was concierge...blah, blah" just like it can claim it was not them to blame at for defrauding owners at Southcape, it was NEVS and NEVS can claim it was improperly trained Outfield Marketing sales people...even though NEVS, Outfield and Festiva have been the key players in this game from the get go and most likely training the "sales" people.

I really hope some AG can connect the dots on this scam and hold people accountable before they decide to move their circus of mysterious relationships and companies that shift and dissolve overnight to other timeshares.

For a hint of how Festiva uses these outside companies check out this link. http://festiva-resorts.pissedconsumer.com/festiva-resorts-rip-off-20100806192761.html


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## Sou13

I checked my notes for the location of Concierge Services" which is Omaha, NE, but am still unable to locate this operation because of the ambiguity of the name.

The last question, whether I'd ever used the services of "Paradise Destinations" led me to three possibilities.

Here's another puzzler.  I've heard a rumor (supposedly from an "insider") that Festiva Resorts has declared bankruptcy and is now operating under the name of "Festiva Hospitality Group" but I'm unable to verify this.

The most pressing issue is whether Festiva club members are paying MF for the 102 weeks the Festiva Development Group is using Units 32 and 33 for "sales" which are not sales of the 540 weeks but of "conversions" of deeded weeks to points.


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## Sou13

*Update on WBZ-TV report*

_Festiva Resorts gave us a statement saying complaints at the Sandcastle are largely related to the actions of Cliff Hagberg and Outfield Marketing, not 
Festiva. The company did say, however, that it will return property deeds to any Sandcastle owners who feel they were pressured to join Festiva._ http://wbztv.com/local/time.share.investigation.2.1826266.html

Festiva has said that they did not get any of the $3000+ fees that people paid for Festiva points. Per Festiva this money went to Outfield Marketing. Cliff Hagberg (NEVMSLLC) has admitted that NEVS was the agent so if this is accurate, NEVS has profited a lot from shaking down owners. That's the kind of trustee that Southcape and Sandcastle owners could trust! Festiva now has 500 units at Sandcastle. At over $3000 per unit, that is $1.5 M. Members of the Sandcastle owner's advisory group have been asked to ask Cliff who got the proceeds from these sales. So far he has failed to answer the question. We know that NEVMSLLC has access to this site, so perhaps this will be the motivation he needs to answer the question.

Until he was confronted with paperwork at the Sandcastle owners meeting this April, NEVMSLLC kept saying that the companies were completely separate and he had nothing to do with the sales. When the paperwork was passed out at the annual meeting he was forced to admit that NEVS was an agent for Festiva.

Some major discrepancies with the paperwork used to transfer deeds to Festiva have been uncovered. Many were illegally notarized in Denton TX by a notary who swore that she witnessed the signatures. Several people have been identified who now believe that their paperwork may have been forged.

If you bought Festiva points, email:

ownerservices@festiva.travel 

and demand that they send you the documents that prove that you transferred your deed.

If you were surprised to find out that you relinquished your deed, this may explain why. The paperwork is very clear and anybody that legitimately signed it would know what they did. 

All of this has been communicated to the Attorney General.


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## e.bram

500 units: P.T. Barnum was right!


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## lefty88

*Yeah right*

How can you believe that Festiva didn't receive any portion of the $3000.00 that was paid for Festiva Points.  In all business transactions everyone receives a percentage.  Why would they agree to nothing and then have to pay Maintenance and Assessment Fees on 500 units. This is a typical push the blame game and your falling for it.


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## Sou13

*lefty88*,

I'm inclined to believe that Festiva contracted with Outfield Marketing to sell conversions and that is how they take over resorts.  They don't have to "develop" anything but a "club"!  The resort is fully developed and the deeded owners get assessed for upgrades so that "The Club" (FAC) gets upgraded without Festiva having to invest anything!  FAC members get the use of the weeks that are converted to points and the MF paid to the resort is actually lower than the FAC members' club dues except possibly in the case of the most undesireable off-season weeks which nobody wants. Eventually, though, FAC club members will have to use those undesireable weeks or not get to use their points for the year even though they have to pay the MF to "The Club"!

The $1.5 million that NEVS made from selling conversions at Sandcastle is less than 1/2 of the total they made on the deal.  At Southcape they made *more than* $1.5 million between the $1,000,000 Festiva paid NEVS for the 540 weeks and the more than $750,000 they made from selling conversions of deeded weeks to points without paying any MFs or SAs, not even for the two units they used for sales!  And NEVMSLLC raked in more than $100,000 per year for "managing" the Southcape Resort management!

If there's nothing illegal about this, there oughta be a law!


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## Sou13

I've been searching the Internet for the history of Don Clayton because of something I read about his history with the Equivest Vacation Club.  I found this article http://www.nxtbook.com/ygsreprints/ygs/g13153_ARDA_marchaprl10/index.php?startid=44#/46 which states the Clayton and Patrick philosophy as _rather than building properties from the ground up, Festiva's trend is to purchase resorts that may have fallen on hard times and then to improve them for renovations, new amenities, and above all, service._

My issue with Festiva is that deeded owners at the resorts in which Festiva acquires weeks are the ones who are assessed for the renovations, new amenities, etc. and that they have no say in these special assessments.

In 2009 Festiva had to raise the MF for Club members because of a shortfall in funds.  In just three years as a Club Festiva is already having difficulty collecting fees.  Southcape Resort had not fallen on hard times IMO but has indeed fallen on hard times *NOW* thanks to the philosophy of Clayton and Patrick.


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## Sou13

*Letter from Festiva*

Does anyone have a copy of the letter from Festiva to Club members?  I have a read-only copy that was emailed to me by a former Southcape owner who was misled into converting a summer week to FAC points.  Needless to say there's no joy in FestivaLand as members are getting hit in the stomach with this one!


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## Sou13

*Sock it to'em*

Dear Sir or Madam:

2010 has been a great year for the Festiva Adventure Club. The changes made to the club for 2010 have been a success both for the club's financial health as well as improved member usage and satisfaction. There has been a significant decrease in member delinquencies as compared with 2009 as well as a significant increase in rental revenues related to the rental of nreserved inventory that would otherwise go unused. Currently the positive signs and future indications are looking immeasurably better than this same time in 2009. 

We are excited to say that Festiva Hospitality Group will add more than 3,000 new members to the Adventure Club through its sales efforts by the end of 2010, bringing the total membership to more than 20,000 members. This net increase in members helps to ensure a healthy and vibrant club. 

As we discussed last year, the Festiva Adventure Club has also seen the effects of the economic recession as have many other industries, businesses and individuals. In 2009 there was an increase in delinquencies and defaults from 8% to 14%. As a result the Festiva Adventure Club faced some very large deficits heading into 2010 totaling nearly $900,000. In order to face those deficits head on and to ensure that the Festiva Adventure Club continued to fulfill its mission of providing superior products and services to its members, the maintenance fee structure was adjusted in 2010 to include nearly 15% expected bad debt and defaults by its members. Fortunately we can say with certainty at this point that delinquencies and defaults will not exceed 15% for 2010. We anticipate that your increase from 2010 to 2011 will be nominal. However, 2011 will also be the year in which the Festiva Adventure Club must assess its first (and it is hopefully its last) Special Assessment. 

The Festiva Adventure Club owns real estate at the resort locations that your membership entitles you to be able to use. Just as the Festiva Adventure Club has seen a rise in delinquencies and defaults as a result of the dire economic conditions, so too have nearly all of the resort locations. In order to make up for those delinquencies and defaults and to also ensure that timely renovations and improvements may continue to happen, many of the Boards of Directors at the resorts have made the difficult decision to special assess the owners of the resorts to raise the required capital funds. 

As a result of, the Festiva Adventure Club has been invoiced approximately $7.8 million by the various resorts. While this news may seem unpleasant, you as a Festiva Adventure Club member are receiving a substantial savings in comparison with an individual resort owner. While the average resort owner will see an average special assessment of more than $700, you as an Adventure Club member will only see a special assessment of $400 that will be payable in two annual installments of $200. This $200 special assessment will ensure that the resort locations where you spend your vacation time will be able to meet and exceed your expectations of quality for years and years to come despite these troubled economic times. 

• Page2 

September 2, 2010 

Festiva Hospitality Group passes this news along with sincere empathy as it has certainly felt the pain firsthand. As we mentioned last year, Festiva Hospitality Group (while under no obligation to do so) has subsidized the Adventure Club's bad debt in an amount approaching $1 million during 2009. We mention the above contribution as we predict that the news of this special assessment could be met by accusations and rumors spread among members through various internet outlets or at the resorts since there was such a large increase in maintenance fees in 2010. 

This special assessment will cover many things at many resorts. There will be exterior renovations to beautify certain resorts, complete renovations of the resort accommodations themselves at most resorts, and energy efficient replacements of outdated windows, roofs, cooling systems, hot water heaters, etc. While the timing may be inconvenient, we see this special assessment as an opportunity to take your vacation experience to the next level very quickly and in most cases permanently. 

In addition to the various resorts initiating extensive and sustainable renovations and upgrades, Festiva Hospitality Group and its subsidiaries will be reinvesting in the resorts alongside the resort members and Festiva Adventure Club. At no charge to any member, Festiva Hospitality Group and its subsidiaries will be funding special amenity improvements to be shared by all members. One such project will be to fund the installation of Wi-Fi access at every Festiva managed resort. Not only will Festiva Hospitality Group pay for the installation of the Wi-Fi access, it will also deliver it to you the member at no charge. There will also be special projects such as construction of sporting facilities, common area improvements and more. 

You will also see a new line item on your budget classified reserve expense totaling $50. This addition to your annual maintenance fee should ensure that the need to have a special assessment in the future will be very unlikely. Regardless of whether or not the resorts pass along assessments in the future, the establishment of this reserve fund will ensure there is always an "emergency fund" in place for the Festiva Adventure Club to meet those obligations without having to special assess you the member again. 

*As a gesture of appreciation for your continued support, you will also receive a gift from Festiva Hospitality Group in the form of a gift card for a Relaxing Retreat vacation valued at $500 as a thank you. This gift card can be used to reserve a Relaxing Retreat 7 night vacation at one of our resorts in 2011. You can use it yourself, give it as a gift to friends or family or donate it to charity.* 

We thank you sincerely for helping the Festiva Adventure Club continue to move forward and promise you we will do our absolute best to provide to you the highest quality resort and vacation experiences in the coming months and years! 

Sincerely, 
Festiva Adventure Club


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## e.bram

What or who is Festiva Holiday Group?(money sink)


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## Sou13

*More on the "money sink"*

It's the "Hospitality" Group not the "Holiday" Group but you got the "money sink" part right!

Today I heard from the Southcape-Festiva convert who provided the above letter which TUG users seem to be letting go by unnoticed.  Now Festiva is offering members a 3-day/2-night stay at Southcape for $79 if they are willing to meet with the developer and provide feedback on Festiva's plans to upgrade the resorts in the Club.  If they also attend a meeting to try to sell them more points, they'll get a $50 gift card, making the stay cost only $29,  transportation, and their valuable time.  This offer was made over the telephone, which is why I can't reproduce it here.

If anyone else gets such an offer, can you please post it here?  Thank you!


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## Sou13

*Another Festiva ploy*

Another Cape Cod timeshare owner found this promo at http://www.myresortnetwork.com/vacation-packages/Massachusetts/Cape-Cod Cape Cod Massachusetts Promotion:

2 Nights $99 or 3 Nights $149 or Includes $25 Visa Gift Card

Enjoy a piece of the Cultural Coast in Cape Cod. 2 night packages starting at $99. Cap Cod includes 15 distinctive towns, arts & culture, quaint shops, wooded bicycle paths, plentiful events & festivals,and endless array of land and sea activities. Visit countless historic sites and landmarks, each telling the proud role that Cape Cod has played in American history. 2 night packages starting at $99.



Hotel  2 Nights
3 Nights

Santuit Inn
$99.00 
$149.00 

Admiralty Inn
$99.00 
$149.00 



Santuit Inn
Immerse yourself in the quaint decor and stylish Cape Cod, Massachusetts ambience ever-present in the beautifully appointed accommodations. Enjoy casual comfort and convenience amidst gracious amenities and thoughtful service � just steps away from the waves of the Atlantic Ocean. At the Santuit Inn, having the ability to kick back and set your own pace is the greatest comfort of all. Enjoy your home away from home at the laid-back retreat.

Standard Double
A Standard Double is a newly renovated unit with two full sized beds. Designer pillows and linens make your stay with us comfortable. The furniture consists of a collection of end tables, five drawer bureaus, and an armoire. New air conditioning and heating units have been installed. Off of the bedroom is a bathroom with a stall shower. Wireless internet is available on property free of charge for your convenience. 

Santuit Inn Features:

•32 High Definition Flat Screen TVs 
•Complimentary Wireless Internet 
•New Individually Controlled Heat &Air-Conditioning Units 
•Designer Bedding and Mattresses 
•100% All Natural Fiber Linens 
•Refrigerator Rental ($10/night) 
•Hair dryer and Iron/ironing board (available for use at front desk free of charge) 
•Complementary Parking 
•Convenient location to everything on Cape Cod 
•Convenience Store, Ice Cream Parlor, Pizza & Sub Shop, Honeydew Donuts, Perseys Place (Cape Cods largest breakfast menu)and Wine & Liquor Store all in walking distance to the property
See Pictures


Admiralty Inn & Suites
The Admiralty Inn & Suites in Falmouth is a great Cape Cod hotel for your vacation destination and is conveniently located only minutes from both Falmouths busy downtown and beautiful beaches. The Free Continental Breakfast is great for our guests who are eager to quickly head to the beach. You can also check your e-mail fast with our Free High Speed Internet Access before heading out. The perfect spot for those who have opted to use Falmouth as their home base while they explore all that the Cape and Islands have to offer. You will also enjoy our outdoor pool (open from Memorial Day to Columbus Day) as well as the heated indoor pool with whirlpool spa.

Admiralty Inn & Suites Features:

•Free high-speed Internet Access
•Outdoor Pool
•Heated Indoor Pool with Whirlpool Spa
•Queen & King Beds
•Refrigerators
•Coffee Maker 
•Microwave
•Satellite TV with HBO
See Pictures




Qualifications, Requirements, Terms and Conditions: 

The Festiva Adventure Club was launched in the summer of 2006. It is a points-based vacation membership system that gives members increased flexibility in many aspects when making their vacation plans. Based on the number of points purchased, Adventure Club members can make reservations at any of our 27 resorts, stay in any size unit available, vacation any time of year available, take advantage of various stay lengths (3 and 4 night stays or 7 night stay), take multiple weeks of vacation, accelerate points from future usage years, defer unused points to the following year (by December 15 of current year), exchange a week long stay with any one of the thousands of Interval International affiliated resorts, and more.

Guests must meet the following Qualifications:
1) Attend a 90-120 minute presentation.
2) Married or co-habitating couples (no singles). Both partners/spouses are required to attend the presentation together. Co-habitating couples must provide matching IDs (must prove living together).
3) Between the ages 25-68.
4) Minimum combined income of $50,000.
5) Must present a valid drivers license AND major credit card or check book (no debit cards).
6) Must be US citizens and be able to speak and understand English.
7) Guest must have their own vehicle.
8) Guest cannot have toured with the host resort within the past 13 months or a Festiva Resort in the past 6 months or be a Festiva Owner.
9) No group travel. More than one (1) couple is considered group travel.
10) No bankruptcy within the past 3 years.
11) No pets.
*Note: Tours are not available on the day of arrival or departure. No tours Monday or Tuesday. No check-in Sunday or Monday for 2 night packages.

Promotions requiring attendance at a sales presentation are for the purpose of introducing the benefits of vacation ownership. As a result of various state registration requirements, guests may not be eligible to purchase a vacation ownership interest in the project where the sales presentation occurs. Sponsor reserves the right to change this offer prior to purchase without notice. Offer not not valid with any other promotional offer. THIS ADVERTISING MATERIAL IS BEING USED FOR THE PURPOSE OF SOLICITING SALES OF A VACATION OWNERSHIP PLAN (TIMESHARE). THE COMPLETE OFFERING TERMS ARE IN AN OFFERING PLAN AVAILABLE FROM THE SPONSOR. Prices of interests range from $8,000 - $100,000. Prices are subject to change.




Address: 
South Cape Resort - 950 Falmouth Rd. Mashpee, MA 02649
Santuit Inn - 6 Falmouth Road (MA Route 28) Mashpee, MA 02649
Admiralty Inn - 51 Teatickety Hwy East Falmouth, MA 02536






Cancellation and Refund Policy Details: 
There is a 15% cancellation fee for any cancellations requested up to 7 days prior to scheduled check-in. Any change or cancellation made within 7 days prior to check-in will incur an additional $99. No refunds for any cancellation made within 72 hours prior to scheduled check in and will be subject to full market rate for the package. Cancellations may be made via telephone at 877-376-0094. . 



call Toll Free 877-376-0094


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## Sou13

*Where Festiva is spending the money*

To find out how the Club members' money is being spent go to http://www.festiva.travel/FHG-mag/2010-fall-fhgmag/index.html


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## Sou13

*Takeover inefficiencies*

Since Festiva took over Southcape Resort, the financial information is no longer available at the resort, and the maintenance fee bills are being sent from Asheville, NC instead of from Mashpee, MA, for which we are being charged an additional 3% accounting fee.  The end result is that here we are in December 2010 and have yet to see our MF bills for 2011!  Now that's efficiency and cost-saving for you!


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## Sou13

Please see http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1044662&postcount=1380 if you are an unhappy Festiva member who signed away your Southcape or Sandcastle deed.


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## carl2591

*festiva takes over my resort, how bad can it get..*

glad to see you back.. gets kinda lonely out there without your TUG buddies. I know how you feel.. 

guess the kitchen cooled a bit so now its easy to stick around for a while and try to put out some Festiva fires


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