# Wyndham needs to clean house



## mcow2011 (Jun 26, 2012)

Wyndham needs to clean up its act, and sales practices. 

Look at Wyndham vs Marriott and Disney BBB ratings, F, A+, A. 

http://www.bbb.org/central-florida/...ham-vacation-ownership-in-orlando-fl-20000283 

http://www.bbb.org/central-florida/...iott-vacations-worldwide-in-orlando-fl-202116 

http://www.bbb.org/central-florida/...vacation-development-in-celebration-fl-102655


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## Cheryl20772 (Jun 26, 2012)

I do agree.  There is one caveat.  I think it's possible for companies to pay to have their records cleaned up at BBB.  It's possible W doesn't care enough to do anything about it.  At the least they would need to pay someone to attempt to contact and respond to any complaints posted there.


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## jjmanthei05 (Jun 26, 2012)

The only way they are going to clean up their act is if what they are doing now stops working. With them getting 8-10% increase in sales, there is no reason for them to change. 

Jason


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## mcow2011 (Jun 26, 2012)

Selling timeshares in an honest ethical manner will pay off more in the long run. 

Sad to see just how low of rating that WYN ot WM has compared to Marriott. I own both. 

WYN or Worldmark in particular is much easier to use than Marriott but aparantly WYN sales practice could use some DRASTIC improvement. Heads would roll if I were running that division of the company.


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## gravityrules (Jun 26, 2012)

mcow2011 said:


> Selling timeshares in an honest ethical manner will pay off more in the long run.   ...



"If something cannot go on forever, it will stop" - Herbert Stein

I think we agree that W's business model is not sustainable in the long run (unless P. T. Barnum was right).  On the other hand as John Maynard Keynes said "In the long-run we're all dead" ... perhaps this is W's philosophy about the 'long run'.  It amazes me how long it can take for poor practices and decisions to sink a company (or an economy).


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## mcow2011 (Jun 26, 2012)

gravityrules said:


> "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop" - Herbert Stein
> 
> I think we agree that W's business model is not sustainable in the long run (unless P. T. Barnum was right).  On the other hand as John Maynard Keynes said "In the long-run we're all dead" ... perhaps this is W's philosophy about the 'long run'.  It amazes me how long it can take for poor practices and decisions to sink a company (or an economy).



So true, you brought a smile to my face.:rofl:


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## pacodemountainside (Jun 26, 2012)

Last year's news!


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## simpsontruckdriver (Jun 26, 2012)

If you're talking about the phrase credited to P.T. Barnum, "There's a sucker born every minute", here's the fact about that one.

TS


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## ronparise (Jun 26, 2012)

a bbb rating means nothing, check the stock price

Im sure Wyndham management is quite pleased with themselves


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## mcow2011 (Jun 26, 2012)

ronparise said:


> a bbb rating means nothing, check the stock price
> 
> Im sure Wyndham management is quite pleased with themselves



Yes the stock is near its 52 week high and the overall corporation is doing well but that is no excuse for an F rating at the BBB for the sales division.

If they don't clean up their act this will come back to haunt them.

Imagine if they took the lead and cleaned up their sales tactics and also made money, WOW what a concept. Great product sold with honesty and followed up with excellent service.


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## pacodemountainside (Jun 26, 2012)

ronparise said:


> a bbb rating means nothing, check the stock price
> 
> Im sure Wyndham management is quite pleased with themselves



Ron:

This web site is mostly devoted to time shares.

http://www.motleyfool.com and Jim Crammer have all the good stuff about stocks

Yes,  I am sure all the Noblesse Obilge in Ivory Tower are intoxicated  from champagne  and cavier celebrating  stock increase from around  $4.00  around  3 and  1/2 years ago to $50+ today and BOD increasing dividend  which will cover mansions although no 90K sq. ft. like David Siegel who  owns Wesgate and uses Sedways to get around  in it.

They probably couldn't tell "F" fron an "A"!!!!

The mantra is "push the envelope" and make sure it is well lubricated with   diaharra BS!


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## pacodemountainside (Jun 26, 2012)

mcow2011 said:


> Yes the stock is near its 52 week high and the overall corporation is doing well but that is no excuse for an F rating at the BBB for the sales division.
> 
> If they don't clean up their act this will come back to haunt them.
> 
> Imagine if they took the lead and cleaned up their sales tactics and also made money, WOW what a concept. Great product sold with honesty and followed up with excellent service.



Since Fairfield morphed into Wyndham  around 6 years ago they have done nothing but run in the ground and rape. The best documentary on this is Bill Spearman article on page 34  of TimeSharing Today, April 2009.

Actually Disney and Marriot  have been doing for years. Even WorldMark which morphed from Trendwest,   Intervals have value. Trust  has frustrated Wyndham's efforts to rape.

For whatever reason Wyndham has chosen to go rogue route and like a rogue bear shooting is only solution


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## ronparise (Jun 26, 2012)

pacodemountainside said:


> Ron:
> 
> This web site is mostly devoted to time shares.
> 
> ...



My point is that Wyndham doesnt care about the BBB, and they dont seem to care about us. But they do care about their stockholders.

They will continue to sell like they have been selling until it doesnt work any more. I dont think a BBB rating will make any difference. 

To the ops point "Wyndham needs to clean up its act, and sales practices."....No they dont, as long as what they are doing works


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## am1 (Jun 26, 2012)

As long as people are buying why would they change it?  

It really is that simple.

Wyndham owes it to its stockholders to make as much money as possible for them.  

Just like bean counters who calculate risks and future payouts vs cost savings.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 26, 2012)

mcow2011 said:


> Selling timeshares in an honest ethical manner will pay off more in the long run.
> 
> Sad to see just how low of rating that WYN ot WM has compared to Marriott. I own both.
> 
> WYN or Worldmark in particular is much easier to use than Marriott but aparantly WYN sales practice could use some DRASTIC improvement. Heads would roll if I were running that division of the company.



Yeah, it would be your head that rolls.  Wyndham is so far superior to Marriott from a performance point of view that it isn't even close.  Marriott had to exit the business and spin off the timeshare division because they got into so much trouble.  In the mean time, Wyndham over took Marriott as the market share leader for timeshares.

Yeah, Wyndham sales team sucks.  The shareholders really don't care.


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## jjmanthei05 (Jun 26, 2012)

mcow2011 said:


> Yes the stock is near its 52 week high and the overall corporation is doing well but that is no excuse for an F rating at the BBB for the sales division.
> 
> If they don't clean up their act this will come back to haunt them.
> 
> Imagine if they took the lead and cleaned up their sales tactics and also made money, WOW what a concept. Great product sold with honesty and followed up with excellent service.



And what if it doesn't? Would management and stock holders accept "we aren't selling crap but at least people think we are nice about it..." I don't know about Marriott but Disney can get away with the nice routine because they exercise their ROFR. So they aren't competing with the exact same product at a 95% discount. It makes it much easier to be nice when you have someone held over a barrel and they have no choice. Do you honestly think that a better rating would do anything to Wyndham resale values? The salesman also can't just "give up" and tell all their customers to go the resale route, they need to sell to make a living so they do what they can to sell their product while being at a huge disadvantage. It would be like trying to win 100 yard dash when you have to start 200 yards away. 

Don't take this as me being in favor / condone what they do but look at it from a salesman's shoes. With current market conditions what would you/ could you do to sell Wyndham's product at retail prices?

Jason


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## jjmanthei05 (Jun 26, 2012)

From my perspective, I am happy with the performance of sales. Because of what they do, Wyndham keeps adding more inventory and getting new resorts for me to go to with my resale points. 

Jason


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## Cheryl20772 (Jun 26, 2012)

They need more than a clean house.  This was posted over on the Wyndham site by lwan98  Hope he doesn't mind me reposting it here as it fits very well in this thread.

On the Wyndham forum it's here http://forums.atozed.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11255&p=38921#p38921

and this is the pdf link

http://www.ftc.gov/os/caselist/1023142/120626wyndamhotelscmpt.pdf

I feel a bit nauseous after reading this one....


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## massvacationer (Jun 26, 2012)

jjmanthei05 said:


> From my perspective, I am happy with the performance of sales. Because of what they do, Wyndham keeps adding more inventory and getting new resorts for me to go to with my resale points.
> 
> Jason



I somewhat agree - I also think that their aggressive selling of the CWA product helps all owners, as they are successfully repackaging and  selling old unwanted contracts.  This helps the various POAs, by getting the contracts back into the hands of folks who will pay the maintenance fees.

That said, from reports here and on the Wyndham Owners Forum, the Sales Department crosses the line from aggressive selling to unethical misrepresentation too often.  I think they should draw a line and make sure their sales folks don't cross it.


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## gravityrules (Jun 26, 2012)

simpsontruckdriver said:


> If you're talking about the phrase credited to P.T. Barnum, "There's a sucker born every minute", here's the fact about that one.
> 
> TS



I had heard of the Cardiff Giant hoax but didn't know the tie-in with the quote.  I think the sentiment, if not the quote, is correctly associated with Barnum, even in this story.

Several posters have made the point that W is doing 'well' for their stakeholders while apparently having significant issues with some percentage of their customers.  Is this sustainable?  Can anyone name other businesses that 'do well' for their shareholders while that are considered 'bottom of the barrel' by the customer?  Perhaps there is a percentages game here ... if so, can a company merely be 'tolerated' but not respected (maybe even disliked) and still be successful?  Does that explain the current state of another company that begins with 'W'?


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## ronparise (Jun 27, 2012)

gravityrules said:


> I had heard of the Cardiff Giant hoax but didn't know the tie-in with the quote.  I think the sentiment, if not the quote, is correctly associated with Barnum, even in this story.
> 
> Several posters have made the point that W is doing 'well' for their stakeholders while apparently having significant issues with some percentage of their customers.  Is this sustainable?  Can anyone name other businesses that 'do well' for their shareholders while that are considered 'bottom of the barrel' by the customer?  Perhaps there is a percentages game here ... if so, can a company merely be 'tolerated' but not respected (maybe even disliked) and still be successful?  Does that explain the current state of another company that begins with 'W'?




I think we have to understand who Wyndhams real customer is. And heres a hint...its not us.   

This is an argument that real estate sales people used to talk about a lot. Who is our client?  Is it the guy that owns a home that he wants to sell and we contract to sell it for him....ie the guy that pays our commission, or is it the guy we sell it to? 

Its much the same with Wyndham sales, Im sure...Who are those salesmen working for, its not us, Their real customer is that other division within the company, that buys the land and and develops it

Who their customer is has become very clear with their move away from a "build it (or buy it) and sell it" model,  to becoming a fee for service company.


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## Rent_Share (Jun 27, 2012)

IMHO 

*Marriott* has been known to run a "Clean Timeshare" business, straight forward presentation, not known to spin heat or lies. Wall Street was less than impressed with the profit associated with the capital invested in the timeshare operation and Marriott spun it off with a licensing agreement for the name.

*DVC* Had a major fiasco with the Aluani project and axed the top three executives . . . . . IMHO the proportion of capital/profit associated to DVC is so small that cannot/will not impact the stock price

*Wyndham *has a track record of "rogue" sales managers independently violating "company policy" to make sales goals. Wall Street has rewarded this practice by record appreciation in market value. In the Boardroom, "It ain't broken, don't fix it"


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## ace2000 (Jun 27, 2012)

ronparise said:


> I think we have to understand who Wyndhams real customer is. And heres a hint...its not us.
> 
> This is an argument that real estate sales people used to talk about a lot. Who is our client?  Is it the guy that owns a home that he wants to sell and we contract to sell it for him....ie the guy that pays our commission, or is it the guy we sell it to?
> 
> ...


 
Instead of figuring out who the customer is, we need to define who the company is working for...  that would be the shareholders.  The bottom line is someone (or some group) has come to the conclusion that the company is better off the way it's going.  And if you look at the stock price, that only confirms their beliefs.  There really is no other factor at play here, all else is secondary.


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## ace2000 (Jun 27, 2012)

The top management of Wyndham is playing the game of squeezing the owners as much as possible, but not too much to make them leave.  It's a balancing act.  We know we're on the tightrope, because many of their ownerships cannot be given away even for free.  If it gets much worse, and the multitudes of people just quit paying thier fees because their ownership is not worth it, that will wake them up.  Not quite to that point yet, at least not enough.


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## jjmanthei05 (Jun 27, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> Instead of figuring out who the customer is, we need to define who the company is working for...  that would be the shareholders.  The bottom line is someone (or some group) has come to the conclusion that the company is better off the way it's going.  And if you look at the stock price, that only confirms their beliefs.  There really is no other factor at play here, all else is secondary.



This is the same for any company though. The employees are always working for the owners/shareholders. The great customer service companies have determined it is in the owners best interest to structure the company along that model. In the case of Wyndham they have a little of both. For current owners, I think the customer service portion of the business is fantastic. I have never had an issue with the call center and they have bent over backwards to help me do what I needed to. This keeps owners happy and staying in the system. Sales on the other hand doesn't see the benefits going that route because they have determined that is what is best for them. It is possible they have the very real idea that some of their customers will be "pushed" in sales presentations, become upset after rescission is over but learn that there is nothing they can do at this point and come to like the system after dealing with the VCs and visiting resorts and want to expand their portfolio to be able to travel more. 

Jason


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## ace2000 (Jun 27, 2012)

jjmanthei05 said:


> This is the same for any company though. The employees are always working for the owners/shareholders.



Sure it is... but many here don't get it.  They think Wyndham is going to change just because it's the right thing to do.  They might be right from a long term perspective, but for the short term, it's all playing out just fine.  What's the motivation for them to change?  

Want to see where some of their current profits are coming from?  Think back to all the changes and charges they implemented a few years ago and put on the owners backs.


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## jjmanthei05 (Jun 27, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> Sure it is... but many here don't get it.  They think Wyndham is going to change just because it's the right thing to do.  They might be right from a long term perspective, but for the short term, it's all playing out just fine.  What's the motivation for them to change?
> 
> Want to see where some of their current profits are coming from?  Think back to all the changes and charges they implemented a few years ago and put on the owners backs.



Wyndham will never implement or even consider a change that doesn't turn them more of a profit let alone costs them money overall. It just won't happen. I wouldn't let this happen in any of my businesses. 

Jason


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## mcow2011 (Jun 27, 2012)

Wyndham need to train their salespeople better and represent the product in a more honest and ethical manner, if they don't lawsuits will surely follow and then the profits will decline.

They can do this now or wait for the lawsuits. The number of complaints being filed is VERY high. If this mentality comes from the top shame on them.

Great companies have growing profits and treat their customers well. Flash in the pan companies have growth spurts then shaft so many peolpe that they eventually destroy themselves.


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## mcow2011 (Jun 27, 2012)

I find it rather Ironic that Wyndham supports cleaning house with timeshare resales but when it comes to cleaning up their own selling practices and raising their BBB rating from F well that is a different story?

ORLANDO, FL--(Marketwire -06/22/12)- Wyndham Vacation Ownership (WVO), the world's largest vacation ownership company and member of the Wyndham Worldwide family of companies (WYN), applauds the enactment of the Timeshare Resale Accountability Act. Florida Gov. Rick Scott will hold a ceremony in Orlando today officially signing into law this new bill aimed at tackling fraud by timeshare resale companies. 

"We remain committed to protecting our owners and the integrity of our industry at large. This new law will help to ensure deceptive companies can no longer take advantage of timeshare owners," said Franz Hanning, President and CEO of Wyndham Vacation Ownership. "I commend Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi and Gov. Rick Scott, along with bill sponsors Sen. Andy Gardiner (R-Orlando) and Rep. Eric Eisnaugle (R-Orlando), for aggressively pursuing action against the fraudulent and deceptive practices that have become commonplace among many timeshare resale companies." 

The Timeshare Resale Accountability Act was enacted to protect Florida consumers, and help put an end to deceptive marketing practices conducted by fraudulent timeshare resale companies that have been targeting consumers under the guise of offering a service to help sell their timeshare product. The new Act requires full and fair disclosure of the terms and conditions of services being offered, a reasonable rescission period for consumers to cancel a contract and penalties for those individuals and companies that engage in misleading and fraudulent practices. The bill will become effective July 1, 2012.


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## ace2000 (Jun 27, 2012)

mcow2011 said:


> Wyndham need to train their salespeople better and represent the product in a more honest and ethical manner, if they don't lawsuits will surely follow and then the profits will decline.
> 
> They can do this now or wait for the lawsuits.



There is nothing new going on now.  The same issues you're bringing up have been occurring for many years.  When do you think we're going to see that flood of lawsuits?


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## ace2000 (Jun 27, 2012)

mcow2011 said:


> If this mentality comes from the top shame on them.



It's doubtful you're going to find a written directive that clearly tells their salespeople to tell lies.  You're only going to find an environment that is conducive to the lies.  And that is hard to be successful in court on that front.


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## mcow2011 (Jun 27, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> It's doubtful you're going to find a written directive that clearly tells their salespeople to tell lies.  You're only going to find an environment that is conducive to the lies.  And that is hard to be successful in court on that front.



Sure would be nice to see them use better sales tactics on their own.

The stock has done very well with them buying back so many shares.

Here is a nice Motley Fool article for those that like to follow stocks.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2012/05/29/what-wyndham-worldwide-does-with-its-cash.aspx

I think buying the stock is better than buying the timeshare  

I really like my timeshare but it would be nice if they did a better job selling them.


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## ace2000 (Jun 27, 2012)

mcow2011 said:


> http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2012/05/29/what-wyndham-worldwide-does-with-its-cash.aspx
> 
> I think buying the stock is better than buying the timeshare



As long as they're creative and can invent new fees to soak the current owners you'd be alright buying their stock.  However, what else can they come up with?  I'm really afraid to ask that question.  But, this current earnings stream is constant now, but it's not really going to continue growing.  What else can they do to generate earnings growth in the way they've done over the last couple of years?  Those are the questions that need to be answered before you purchased their stock.


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## Hobo1 (Jun 27, 2012)

mcow2011 said:


> Wyndham need to train their salespeople better and represent the product in a more honest and ethical manner, if they don't lawsuits will surely follow and then the profits will decline.
> 
> They can do this now or wait for the lawsuits. The number of complaints being filed is VERY high. If this mentality comes from the top shame on them.
> 
> Great companies have growing profits and treat their customers well. Flash in the pan companies have growth spurts then shaft so many peolpe that they eventually destroy themselves.



Wyndham has a good product and as its been stated before, on this post and others, a very good customer service staff who goes out of their way to provide good service to their customers.

Retail sales, regardless of the product, is alway subjected to claims of unfair or misleading sales tactics. A prime example is automobile dealerships, new and used. As long as Wyndham provides a good product and customer support they will survive any complaints or legal fights concerning sales tactics. 

The bottom line is the buyer always has the choice to get up and walk out of any sales presentation without purchasing.

As far as ratings like BBB and others they are meaningless. That's what the head of Moody's said when he testified before Congress during the Lehman hearings.  

Wyndham management will look at its sales procedures when sales revenues begin to slide and their shareholders speak out. Until then, as a business, Wyndham has no reason to fix or change something that their financials tell them is not broke.


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## mcow2011 (Jun 27, 2012)

Hobo1 said:


> Wyndham has a good product and as its been stated before, on this post and others, a very good customer service staff who goes out of their way to provide good service to their customers.
> 
> Retail sales, regardless of the product, is alway subjected to claims of unfair or misleading sales tactics. A prime example is automobile dealerships, new and used. As long as Wyndham provides a good product and customer support they will survive any complaints or legal fights concerning sales tactics.
> 
> ...



The majority of their revenue growth did not come from the Timeshares division, but MOST of the complaints do.

Sleazy sales practices give timeshares a bad name. Sure would be nice if they cleaned up their own act as they want others to do in the resales arena.

More lawsuits will follow if they don't do this on their own.

Some have already started to lay the foundation for more suits. It would be a simple fix, it is called HONESTY and integrity in representing a product.

I enjoy my timeshare and don't want to see it ruined by bad management.

http://therealdeal.com/miami/blog/2...-requests-ags-investigate-wyndham-timeshares/


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## Cheryl20772 (Jun 27, 2012)

Hobo1 said:


> As long as Wyndham provides a good product and customer support they will survive any complaints or legal fights concerning sales tactics.


But do they really have a great product?  Or is it rotten at the core?
Did you read that PDF linked to in my previous post?  Wyndham apparently has no IT people.  Their internet security is so bad and their "We don't care" attitude so bad, that the FTC is having to sue them to make them fix their computer system to protect the other companies Wyndham does business with.  Do you really think they will win in this FTC suit?

How ironic, if like Al Capone, it's the government that stops them!


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## mcow2011 (Jun 27, 2012)

Cheryl20772 said:


> But do they really have a great product?  Or is it rotten at the core?
> Did you read that PDF linked to in my previous post?  Wyndham apparently has no IT people.  Their internet security is so bad and their "We don't care" attitude so bad, that the FTC is having to sue them to make them fix their computer system to protect the other companies Wyndham does business with.  Do you really think they will win in this FTC suit?
> 
> How ironic, if like Al Capone, it's the government that stops them!



They can police themselves or be forced to comply. 

Bad management is always expensive. If they don't fix the problems they compound and become very costly. Just as they did not fix their security issues now it will cost them money. 

*******
Wyndham Worldwide Corp. (WYN), the franchiser of Days Inn hotels and Super 8 motels, was sued by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission over security breaches that led to more than 500,000 credit cards being compromised.  

The data breaches led to fraudulent charges on customers’ accounts and the export of credit card information to an Internet domain address registered in Russia, the FTC said in a statement on its website today. 

“Wyndham’s privacy policy misrepresented the security measures that the company and its subsidiaries took to protect consumers’ personal information,” the FTC said in a complaint filed today in federal court in Arizona. The breaches led to more than $10.6 million in “fraud losses,” the FTC said. 
*******

Hopefully they will fix their misleading sales tactics before it costs them money and lowers our values.

The FL AGs office has recieved over 300 calls about Wyndham recenlty.

Best wishes to all of us. Hopefully Management gets their act together sooner rather than later. I will be calling them to address my concerns and encourage all owners to do the same. If enough people tell them to change their sales tactics maybe change will take place.


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## Hobo1 (Jun 27, 2012)

Cheryl20772 said:


> But do they really have a great product?  Or is it rotten at the core?
> Did you read that PDF linked to in my previous post?  Wyndham apparently has no IT people.  Their internet security is so bad and their "We don't care" attitude so bad, that the FTC is having to sue them to make them fix their computer system to protect the other companies Wyndham does business with.  Do you really think they will win in this FTC suit?
> 
> How ironic, if like Al Capone, it's the government that stops them!



No, they won't win but neither will the FTC or us. Unfortunetly, the FTC has been given a lot of power by Congress but no money to follow though on its actions.   Kind of like the cowardly lion in the Wizard of Oz, all roar but no bite.   

So in the end Wyndham will settle by agreeing to "fix" the problem and assume no blame and the FTC will collect a fine and go away.  :zzz:


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## massvacationer (Jun 27, 2012)

*I don't think Wyndham is "soaking" current owners*

I don't agree that Wyndham is "soaking" current owners with fees.  

Most of the POAs are well run - and maintenance fees within the Wyndham network of resorts tend to be moderate to a little higher than average (and certainly less than the other big name brand timeshare companies).  I think owners get a pretty good bang for their buck at most resort POAs. 

The VOA fees have not been raised in several years ( still at $0.51 per 1K points).  

I do agree that there have been increases in Guest Certificate Fees and Transfer Fees, but these have not really affected me at all.

I think existing owners are treated well and get good customer service - and have a good product to enjoy.

Wyndham does extract serious coin from most new retail buyers, but fortunately I don't fall into that category.


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## jjmanthei05 (Jun 27, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> As long as they're creative and can invent new fees to soak the current owners you'd be alright buying their stock.  However, what else can they come up with?  I'm really afraid to ask that question.  But, this current earnings stream is constant now, but it's not really going to continue growing.  What else can they do to generate earnings growth in the way they've done over the last couple of years?  Those are the questions that need to be answered before you purchased their stock.



I think they have already found their new stream for earnings growth with the adjustment in VIP levels. As I have stated in the past the new levels make it much easier for sales to move a new customer to platinum than the old system. If you can set up your structure to allow more internal growth then you will have sustainable growth going forward. 

Jason


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## ace2000 (Jun 27, 2012)

massvacationer said:


> I don't agree that Wyndham is "soaking" current owners with fees.


 
First, they took away the ability to 'rent' points to other owners, then it was the transaction fees, then it was the guest certificate fees, then we lost the ability to get anything for a RCI 28K deposit...  I'm sure I've left out some.  But, all of these happened within a few years time.

Anyway, a customer oriented company does not do that.  It'd be similar to Wal-mart charging you to use their shopping carts when you walk in the store.  They wouldn't be able to get away with that.  However, once you're on the Wyndham train, where else can you go?  They know they've got you.


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## rrlongwell (Jun 27, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> First, they took away the ability to 'rent' points to other owners, then it was the transaction fees, then it was the guest certificate fees, then we lost the ability to get anything for a RCI 28K deposit...  I'm sure I've left out some.  But, all of these happened within a few years time.
> 
> Anyway, a customer oriented company does not do that.  It'd be similar to Wal-mart charging you to use their shopping carts when you walk in the store.  They wouldn't be able to get away with that.  However, once you're on the Wyndham train, where else can you go?  They know they've got you.



The one you forgot to mention on a related tangent is the raising of the level for VIP Silver and Gold and what they say is a long term project to review PIC contracts with an eye towards eliminating them if the resort has gone with the RCI points system.


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## jjmanthei05 (Jun 27, 2012)

rrlongwell said:


> The one you forgot to mention on a related tangent is the raising of the level for VIP Silver and Gold and what they say is a long term project to review PIC contracts with an eye towards eliminating them if the resort has gone with the RCI points system.



I think your examples are off since they are grand fathering in current owner levels and if you pic contract doesn't conform to the rules why should you get the credit for those points. Is it Wyndham's fault your resort decided to change? 

Jason


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## rrlongwell (Jun 27, 2012)

jjmanthei05 said:


> I think your examples are off since they are grand fathering in current owner levels and if you pic contract doesn't conform to the rules why should you get the credit for those points. Is it Wyndham's fault your resort decided to change?
> 
> Jason



I am not in that situation, however, I would think so since Wyndham Worldwide owns RCI.  Also, the grandfathering in of existing VIP eligable points is misleading.  A lot of the contracts were sold under the existing point system under a incremental sales pitch strategy at the current point levels.  This aspect is not being grandfathered in.  Another words,  the existing contract was/were sold to buy one at a time.  The purchase being processed brings the person to the 300,000 level, the next one would go to 500,000.  Although pitched by sales, this process appears to not be honored and actually my hypothetical person now needs the higher level for Gold.


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## jjmanthei05 (Jun 27, 2012)

rrlongwell said:


> I am not in that situation, however, I would think so since Wyndham Worldwide owns RCI.



So your saying that it is a nefarious (i love using that word...) plot to try and sign up resorts to their points programs to affect a minuet number of owners who may own there and take away their PIC points? Also the "Wyndham owns RCI" needs to be clarified. Wyndham Worldwide owns both RCI and Wyndham vacation resorts. RCI is not a subsidiary of Wyndham Vacation Ownership. Those two companies are more like sister companies so WVO can't direct RCI to do anything.

Jason


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## rrlongwell (Jun 27, 2012)

jjmanthei05 said:


> So your saying that it is a nefarious (i love using that word...) plot to try and sign up resorts to their points programs to affect a minuet number of owners who may own there and take away their PIC points? Also the "Wyndham owns RCI" needs to be clarified. Wyndham Worldwide owns both RCI and Wyndham vacation resorts. RCI is not a subsidiary of Wyndham Vacation Ownership. Those two companies are more like sister companies so WVO can't direct RCI to do anything.
> 
> Jason



I am not saying that, but I would not put it past them.  By the way, I did say Wyndham Worldwide in my post and not just Wyndham.  Back in 2009, when I was looking at taking over Estate timeshares, I was discussing the PIC portion with Wyndham.  I was advised, at that time, that Wyndham was trying hard, over time, to reduce and eliminate it.  As I understand it, at one time, you could have four PIC contracts and that was reducted to two.


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## Beefnot (Jun 27, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> As long as they're creative and can invent new fees to soak the current owners you'd be alright buying their stock.  However, what else can they come up with?  I'm really afraid to ask that question.  But, this current earnings stream is constant now, but it's not really going to continue growing.  What else can they do to generate earnings growth in the way they've done over the last couple of years?  Those are the questions that need to be answered before you purchased their stock.



Can they start creating new early reservation fees?  Such as, even though you don't have ARP, for an additional $99, you can book at 12 months instead of 10 (and still allow 13 months for owners with ARP).  Or would that violate some sort of contracts or covenants already in place?


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## rrlongwell (Jun 27, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> Can they start creating new early reservation fees?  Such as, even though you don't have ARP, for an additional $99, you can book at 12 months instead of 10 (and still allow 13 months for owners with ARP).  Or would that violate some sort of contracts or covenants already in place?



As far as I know, they can do what you discussed.  They probably do not even have to exclude the ARP rights.  If you keep thinking like that, Wyndham Marketing may call and offer you a job.  One report I saw in the Internet did attribute a comment to a Senior Wyndham person observing that the call volume was higher than projected.  There is already precendent in the Wyndam System for having one fee for going through the computer and a higher fee if you have to call them.


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## pacodemountainside (Jun 27, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> Want to see where some of their current profits are coming from?  Think back to all the changes and charges they implemented a few years ago and put on the owners backs.



Curious, what changes? Only change I am aware of is WVO increaseing  transfer fee from $100 to $299 about 13 months ago!

The changes in  VOI  fees and  freebies   do not flow to Wyndham.  All the money stays in Trust and allows  3 Wyndham   appointed stooges running it to proclaim they are the greatest  because no  fee increase in many moons while HOAs have all gone up. 

Changes in way VIPs have to use points to make a reservation is pain for them  but cost is in their time. Their discounts have not changed!

The only thing Wyndham, actually its subsidary EH legally  steals  is 90% of  VOI inventory at 60 days which it has done since day of great flood.

Might want to read Bill Spearman article in April 2009 TimeSharing Today


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## pacodemountainside (Jun 27, 2012)

jjmanthei05 said:


> Wyndham will never implement or even consider a change that doesn't turn them more of a profit let alone costs them money overall. It just won't happen. I wouldn't let this happen in any of my businesses.
> 
> Jason



What are your thoughts on RCI changes. I  and many others used to deposit  say 154K points and get three  28K deposits and 70K visable.  VOI Trust had to cover deficit when I booked two BRs and  I then paid  4 exchange fees to use. Today I  and as I read posts  most others have stopped  using RCI especially for Wyndham  resorts.

How did this make RCI  any money? Sounds like  a loser to me!


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## pacodemountainside (Jun 27, 2012)

mcow2011 said:


> Wyndham need to train their salespeople better and represent the product in a more honest and ethical manner, if they don't lawsuits will surely follow and then the profits will decline.
> 
> They can do this now or wait for the lawsuits. The number of complaints being filed is VERY high. If this mentality comes from the top shame on them.
> 
> Great companies have growing profits and treat their customers well. Flash in the pan companies have growth spurts then shaft so many peolpe that they eventually destroy themselves.



Wyndham  has very formal training and puts it people  through it. They do not just hire used car sales people off the street.

www.mywyndhamlawsuit.com  documents quite well but unfortunately  it is off the air , rumor is  Wyndham shut it down.

If you go to post by Mad@Wyndham  dated  May 30, 2012 you will find link to  Fairfield 30 Rules of Conduct Dated  2006.  The very things  they proclaim as illegal and not allowed are the basis for  the BS   lies one hears at sales pitches.

I have personally heard lies about personal reps,  have to buy  now,  can rent for enough to pay MF,  deeded real estate in hot location has to go up in value,  resale no good,  you can't get gift until I finish my 5 hour  beating you into submission, at nausem at many,  many locations. These  rules are suggestions and what Wyndham attorneys  wave when sued and proclaim we are the greatest!

It does come from the top. Main Man  praisied his  troops for pushing  the envelope. Go to corporate web site and see what Main Man is telling securties analysts.

There is no basis for lawsuits. One sign away rights  when contract says this is it and specifically initals saleman did not do any of the no-nos! All the sales BS is null and void. They have been getting away with  since morphing from Cendant/Fairfield  some six years ago. Where are lawsuits?

Owners did file formal compaints with Arkansas AG about how VOI Trust was being run . He said it was fine and go hire your own attorney. Not my problem.


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## jjmanthei05 (Jun 27, 2012)

pacodemountainside said:


> What are your thoughts on RCI changes. I  and many others used to deposit  say 154K points and get three  28K deposits and 70K visable.  VOI Trust had to cover deficit when I booked two BRs and  I then paid  4 exchange fees to use. Today I  and as I read posts  most others have stopped  using RCI especially for Wyndham  resorts.
> 
> How did this make RCI  any money? Sounds like  a loser to me!



Wyndham loses less money. Before you could get a 10 - 15 TPU unit for a 28k deposit so in this scenario you are paying less than $10/TPU. This costs wyndham significant money. I would guess before the TPUs were disclosed (and probably still the same way now) is at the end of each month RCI would say "wyndham people used 4,322 TPUs Give us reservations that equal that amount. Now when you can only get 1 room instead of 8-10 rooms for the same points it cuts down significantly on what Wyndham has to pay RCI. Not a benefit for RCI but defiantly a benefit for Wyndham. 

Jason


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## learnalot (Jun 27, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> Can they start creating new early reservation fees?  Such as, even though you don't have ARP, for an additional $99, you can book at 12 months instead of 10 (and still allow 13 months for owners with ARP).  Or would that violate some sort of contracts or covenants already in place?



It would violate the ARP designations which are part of the contract documents.


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## pacodemountainside (Jun 27, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> As long as they're creative and can invent new fees to soak the current owners you'd be alright buying their stock.  However, what else can they come up with?  I'm really afraid to ask that question.  But, this current earnings stream is constant now, but it's not really going to continue growing.  What else can they do to generate earnings growth in the way they've done over the last couple of years?  Those are the questions that need to be answered before you purchased their stock.



The Main Man has  answer for your question.  "WAAM"


No money sunk in bricks  and sticks. Just provide management and sales services.

Leave Desert Blue in moth balls. So, we only opened two new resorts in last three years, no capital lock up nor bank loans.

Don't forget we have all those sweetheart  10% of CURRENT budget   resort management contracts that pretty much renew  until day of big fire.

  Shoot if those guys in Mexcico can charge  thousands  to allow/record  resale  change  of ownership, why not us?

VIP benefits are sales incentive, no reason we can't cut 10%  this year. They just reduce current profit!

However, as far as stock goes Smart Money for July, 2012 recommends  Interval Leisure (IILG) and Marriott(VAC)!


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## pacodemountainside (Jun 27, 2012)

jjmanthei05 said:


> Wyndham loses less money. Before you could get a 10 - 15 TPU unit for a 28k deposit so in this scenario you are paying less than $10/TPU. This costs wyndham significant money. I would guess before the TPUs were disclosed (and probably still the same way now) is at the end of each month RCI would say "wyndham people used 4,322 TPUs Give us reservations that equal that amount. Now when you can only get 1 room instead of 8-10 rooms for the same points it cuts down significantly on what Wyndham has to pay RCI. Not a benefit for RCI but defiantly a benefit for Wyndham.
> 
> Jason




As I understand it,   when one purchases a UDI contract  we get symbolic points  to be redeemed  via VOI Trust. WVO is not involved with what we do with our points unless a VIP and WVO has to replace  discounts we get with Developer inventory. Don't think Trust is involved in TPUs!

As far as RCI,  VOI has to dump/transfer/ move inventory to RCI when  Trust  members deposit points and start making reservations. WVO is not involved at all. So, if I stop depositing or just get 1 exchange for my 154K points then RCI has lost all that cash I would have paid for more exchanges.

In the 28K days VOI Trust always had some  extra points as some people just did not use, others had 5K-10K whatever  leftovers they could not use so  covered some of the deficit, but it appears the rest had to be  the  olde dreaded "no availabilty"!

We know people are procrastinators and tons of points were dumped on RCI at  2011 year end, yet the underlying inventory was   long gone. So VOI Trust had to steal tons of  2012 inventory to cover these points.

So WVO comes out neutral, RCI loses and VOI Trust ?????


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## am1 (Jun 27, 2012)

pacodemountainside said:


> The only thing Wyndham, actually its subsidary EH legally  steals  is 90% of  VOI inventory at 60 days which it has done since day of great flood.



Why do people think this to be true?

When should Wyndham be allowed to use their points?  I think waiting till 60 days is generous.


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## pacodemountainside (Jun 27, 2012)

am1 said:


> Why do people think this to be true?
> 
> When should Wyndham be allowed to use their points?  I think waiting till 60 days is generous.



You have lost me. 

The VOI inventory  is where  purchasers/owners  from Wyndham  have   converted their  UDI interest into symbolic points.

Most Wyndham Developer owned inventory is stored else where,  probably sales managers computer!

Suggest you read Trust to learn   how  Wyndham legally steals  VOI  inventory  at 60 day mark. Very clearly spelled out in  paragragh at end of  document.  Since Trust provides they are to pay reasonable  costs for stealing, how could it belong to Wyndham? Also, Bill Spearman covers in his  article in  April 2009 TimeSharingToday.

The only times Developer puts inventory  in VOI Trust are when VIPs use discounts,  cover  temporary bonus up to VIP , Discovery packages, executive use,  excess,  etc.





"11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use. In addition, to the extent more Points are available in the Plan than are allocated to Members other 
than Wyndham, Wyndham may sell or lease Points on such terms as Wyndham and the Trustee deem reasonable. The purchasers or lessees of such Points shall have such Membership rights as Wyndham and the Trustee deem appropriate. "


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## rrlongwell (Jun 27, 2012)

am1 said:


> Why do people think this to be true?
> 
> When should Wyndham be allowed to use their points?  I think waiting till 60 days is generous.



I do not know as a factual matter what Wyndam does with the points that were bought and paid for by members that they can take for their own uses at various points on the timeline going to the reservation.  But, I do not think that a thought process that the points are ultimately Wyndham's is the best thinking, however, under the take back provisions, a case can be so made.


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## jjmanthei05 (Jun 28, 2012)

pacodemountainside said:


> As I understand it,   when one purchases a UDI contract  we get symbolic points  to be redeemed  via VOI Trust. WVO is not involved with what we do with our points unless a VIP and WVO has to replace  discounts we get with Developer inventory. Don't think Trust is involved in TPUs!
> 
> As far as RCI,  VOI has to dump/transfer/ move inventory to RCI when  Trust  members deposit points and start making reservations. WVO is not involved at all. So, if I stop depositing or just get 1 exchange for my 154K points then RCI has lost all that cash I would have paid for more exchanges.
> 
> ...



Come on Paco! You have been around long enough to know how this works. The VOI is in charge to make sure points and rooms balance. The way they make that balance is through Wyndham's own points. When a VIP gets an upgrade and a 50% discount to balance out the trust, Wyndham has to pull the "discounted points" out of their own pile to balance back out the trust. Wyndham increases their point pool for their own rental use by people putting points into RCI. When you deposit 154K points into RCI they don't bank a reservation at that point, they bank a week once you make an exchange. It works the same for all the other points systems. That's why there is always bulk bankings. Wyndham benefits most by you putting your points into RCI and never use them. This is why it was so difficult back in the day to get a visible deposit because that required Wyndham to put a week in at the time you made the deposit. 

Jason


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## purson (Jun 28, 2012)

Wyndham/WorldMark is not only putting the squeeze on owners but especially on resale owners.  They have been trying to taint resale memberships and devalue them as much as possible. Eventually, if they feel they have the upper hand, I expect all resale owners to be dumped or marginalized.  They'd be nothing if not for the ability of owners to resell but they are too dumb to know that.


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## Cheryl20772 (Jun 28, 2012)

purson said:


> Wyndham/WorldMark is not only putting the squeeze on owners but especially on resale owners.  They have been trying to taint resale memberships and devalue them as much as possible. Eventually, if they feel they have the upper hand, I expect all resale owners to be dumped or marginalized.  They'd be nothing if not for the ability of owners to resell but they are too dumb to know that.


Apparently so!
As long as the retail market is ignorant to what Wyndham tries to do to those who own resale points, they'll keep doing what they do.  The day that ignorance is blasted, Wyndham will have to face the reality of what they are doing.


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## pacodemountainside (Jun 28, 2012)

Don't think it is going to happen in our lifetimes.   Think how Cendant(Fairfield ) morphed into Wyndham to get rid of taint. Wyndham has only been around about  six years and is biggest.


Take great GM circa 1960 who had something like 60% of world car market. What was good from GM was good for the country.  Gas guzzlers and fins.

When  reality finally caught up with them  a couple years ago the arrogant  to end  bosses headed  to Washington  in their private jets to ask for a  billion dollar bail  out, not selling them to   raise money.


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## jjmanthei05 (Jun 28, 2012)

purson said:


> Wyndham/WorldMark is not only putting the squeeze on owners but especially on resale owners.  They have been trying to taint resale memberships and devalue them as much as possible. Eventually, if they feel they have the upper hand, I expect all resale owners to be dumped or marginalized.  They'd be nothing if not for the ability of owners to resell but they are too dumb to know that.



I don't think wyndham would ever want to take on that burden. Also since most resale owners aren't part of club wyndham access, we have actual deeds giving us rights to the properties we own at. No way can they just "dump you". They would much rather increase fees than get rid of you.


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## rrlongwell (Jun 28, 2012)

jjmanthei05 said:


> I don't think wyndham would ever want to take on that burden. Also since most resale owners aren't part of club wyndham access, we have actual deeds giving us rights to the properties we own at. No way can they just "dump you". They would much rather increase fees than get rid of you.



To increase fees on the deeded owners would tend to increase fees for the Club Wyndham Access Members also and Wyndham owned inventory (excluding Wyndham controlled inventory owned by the POAs).  However, I think increases fees would tend to benifit the Management Company's revenues.  If Wyndham does not want the off season units, I am sure these are not a high priority for them to get, hense, the re-sale market would be a place for re-sale owners to have a permanate home in their system.


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