# RCI Points vs. Wyndham



## TS_Fan (Jan 3, 2011)

Hello all,

I lurked here for several months before signing up and we made our first TS purchase (Shell Vacation Club - Hawaii) after we returned from a trip to Hawaii in November where we went to their presentation (bought resale on eBay for $1.00).  I am seriously excited to be a timeshare owner.

We went to Vegas for Christmas and went to the Grandview TS presentation and learned all about RCI points while we were there...and now I want to buy RCI points as well.  I have read many threads regarding RCI points (including the recent changes to the last minute bookings).  I want to use the RCI points for my wife to spend 4 weeks in Arizona in January or February each year (escape from gray and gloom of WA state) and maybe a couple of last minute trips.  When we visited the Grandview the rep showed us their points chart for AZ and said that a 1-BR silver crown was around 22,000 per week...so I am thinking that 100K - 120K would be a good level of points for us.

I have several questions:

Are RCI points still worth owning even with the change to the last minute bookings?
For the purpose of spending a few weeks in AZ, does anyone know if RCI points a good way to accomplish this?
Does it matter from what resort your RCI points come if you have no intention of ever staying there?  Isn't the important thing the amount of points per $MF?
I really liked the Grandview in Las Vegas, is there a reason that their MF are SOO low as compared to others?  Also, why is Parkway significantly lower?
The best deals that I am seeing for around 100,000 RCI points is about $720 MF on eBay, is there a better/cheaper way to get these?
Are RCI points better or worse than Wyndham points?

I just want to thank all of you for your INVALUABLE input before we bought our first TS a few months ago.  I really LOVE TUG and want to thank all of you for your wonderful advice.

Thanks!

Chester Baldwin


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## chriskre (Jan 3, 2011)

TS_Fan said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I lurked here for several months before signing up and we made our first TS purchase (Shell Vacation Club - Hawaii) after we returned from a trip to Hawaii in November where we went to their presentation (bought resale on eBay for $1.00).  I am seriously excited to be a timeshare owner.
> 
> ...



Chester.  Congrats on your first purchase.   

I own at VV Parkway.  I believe the MF's are lower at this resort and Grandview because they are still in active sales.  They have a vested interest in keeping fees low to encourage sales.

I've never stayed in my home resort and have done lots of great trades with my very small package of 25K a year which is a triennial unit.  Hopefully it will continue but as you are probably already aware from reading, everything in RCI is subject to change.  :annoyed: 

I've been very happy with my points exchanges so far.  I just did a great exchange on Dec. 30th with my RCI points so it's still providing me nice value.  

I also own Wyndham points and it's a great system as well, with lots of options.  I use my RCI points for resorts outside of the Wyndham family and Wyndham points for Wyndhams.  Alot is changing in Wyndham so it remains to be seen if we are going to be happy going forward or not.  I'm glad I own both so no regrets so far.


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## fishingguy (Jan 4, 2011)

*sorry for the long post*

TS-Fan,
You asked some interesting questions. I'll take a whack at them. Sorry for the long post!

1. Are RCI points still worth owning even with the change to the last minute bookings?
They still work well for us, but we are retired and like to go to areas that offer plenty of inventory in the central-US or south. We plan serious vacations at ~18months, and start keeping an eye open for last minute good deals at ~3 or less. 

Bear in mind there other advantages to points, and mileage may vary dependant on user needs/preference/etc. Also remember that you can get access to weeks vacations that show up in an RCI weeks account, by calling an RCI points rep. Of course you'd need a unit you can deposit into that weeks account to search with; but there is no charge for the account if you already have a points account.

2. For the purpose of spending a few weeks in AZ, does anyone know if RCI points a good way to accomplish this?
I'm not so sure that going with points [or even TPU weeks] for last minute getaways is best for AZ, you'd need to decide. But here are the results of some points searches I did this morning; it looks severely limited to me compared to most other areas, but I admit that I haven't watched for them and they may have already been picked over(?):
RCI Points Arizona Resorts - Jan 11-Feb 9, 2011 CK/In - 7 days min
-----------------------------------
Wyndham Flagstaff (#0759) - 1BR 4(2) and 2 BR 8/(6) - 2 units 27K-59K points
Havasu Dunes (#2478) - 2BR 6(4) Full Kitchen - 10 units - 6.5K - 24K points
Sedona Pines (#4968) - 1BR 3(2) Full Kitchen - 30 units - 6.5K-35K points

RCI Weeks (in points) Arizona Resorts - Jan 11-Jan 31, 2011 CK/In - 7 days min
-----------------------------------
The Ridge on Sedona Golf Resort  (#4061)  -  Studio 4(2) Partial Kitchen - 6 units - 7.5K points
Sedona Vacation Club/Los Abrigados  (#2026) - 1BR 4(2) Partial Kitchen - 1 unit - 7.5K points
Sedona Summit  (#4038) - Studio 4(2) Partial Kitchen - 15 units - 7.5K points
Roundhouse Resort  (#0262)  - Studio 4(2) Partial and 1BR 6(4) Full Kitchen - 15 units - 7.5K points
Kohl's Ranch Lodge  (#3986) - Hotel 2(2) No Kitchen - 2 units - 7.5K points

As you can see, not all of these resorts discount into the ideal 6-9K points [or 2-5 TPU].  But, maybe another member who's more familiar with the AZ getaway inventory, will have more insight.

3. Does it matter from what resort your RCI points come if you have no intention of ever staying there? Isn't the important thing the amount of points per $MF?
No it doesn't matter, but there may be some subtle advantages and influences that you want to consider beyond just the MF $$$$:
- The stability of the MF over a long period of time and a good reserve fund which is part of that MF (less potential for a special assessment),
- The up-front costs to get an ownership. Large Grandview resale packages have gotten grossly-expensive here lately; as word of the good value has leaked out and owners are switching from RCI weeks due to the latest changes. They can go upwards of 1K$ on eBay +closing costs; which is obscene -- and actually increases the cost of the underlying points.  [I don't believe getting a points package at $.005/point is worth it if you have to pay 2K$ resale costs IMO. Which rules out some of the TX points packages you'll periodically see offered for sale from certain sellers.]
- A larger group priority as already pointed out by Chris. However remember, group priority does not factor into last minute getaways anyway,
- Some resorts do not have larger units [2BR or 3BR LO's], and that's where you can get a nice sized point package at a low MF. The MF is generally proportionally less with these units when compared to a standard 1BR, 2BR or 3BR unit, and
- The really cheapest points packages don't come up that often and are being sought out by _"RCI Pointers"_ right now.  So you'll need to resist the temptation to jump on the first thing that looks OK, and wait for the better opportunity. The problem is many are jumping into points right now, since they didn't fair very well with the recent TPU changes on the weeks side; that is driving up the cost and making units harder to find!!!!

4. I really liked the Grandview in Las Vegas, is there a reason that their MF are SOO low as compared to others? Also, why is Parkway significantly lower?
As Chris pointed out, both are subsidized ~$50-60/year(?) by the developer. Someday when they get done building *and* marketing the unsold units, the MF can go up.... However, bear in mind that people have been saying that about these 2 resorts for many-many years now; in the meantime the points owners have reaped a very low point-cost over that period.

5. The best deals that I am seeing for around 100,000 RCI points is about $720 MF on eBay, is there a better/cheaper way to get these?
You can look for people willing to rent points; I've seen them on a few other sites for as low as $.005/point that expire in less than a year.  However, most of the time they go for ~$.0075/point that expire in less than a year, to ~$.011/point that expire in less than 2 years.  Of course you'd need to already have a points account to accept a transfer, but you might find a good point rent deal privately if you ask in the wanted-rental section of the forum.

You might have better luck finding a smaller conversion package, or may get a decent cost/point with a bi or tri annual.  I'll leave that to you to decide for yourself. But the big conversions seem to be getting more and more expensive each day given the current status of things, and harder to find.

There are other resorts that at one time offered good points packages besides the 2 you mentioned (if you can get a converted larger unit). You just need to be patient and watch for them to come up -- and have a calculator handy to figure things out. Some RCI Points resorts that have historically low MF's that might yield very good $/point if you get the right conversion includes Sunrise Ridge, Table Rock Landing, Tree Tops, and even Branson French Quarter]. By the way: some resorts are really getting hit with foreclosures which are driving up MF. So you need to do lots of homework to stay on top of things!

Don't forget the PFD side of things. You might find some early or late red season 2BR, 3BR and 4BR LO's with low MF, that PFD into some nice $/point even after seperate PFD fees.  [If you can find them with the right kitchen instead of a studio side, so much the better.]  By the way, they might not give the best TPU on the weeks side because of supply-demand considerations; but remember supply-demand is not a real factor on the points side. [Hint: Think mid-south, south or mid-west, and look for late-march or just the right fall red weeks. They come up much more often than a prime high-TPU week in mid-summer or XMAS, and you can get them for next to nothing. Do your homework on the unit and resort, and verify how the units actually lock-off.] Reminder: You'll already need an RCI Points account to PFD, and the unit you select must not be from an RCI points resort to PFD.

Oh by the way, I just did a PFD on a 2BR LO that delivered 77K @ $.0069/point, that was about to expire in early-April. Remember PFDs must be done >90 day out to get 100% of the gridded points!  You won't get much more from me now, because I'm always on the lookout for good PFD bargains.  :ignore: 

6. Are RCI points better or worse than Wyndham points?
I don't think the recent changes and the higher MF on the Wyndham side help in this regard.  Besides, I try to stay away from the big chains anyway; they have way to much sway to do whatever they want -- and lately that doesn't seem to be in the interest of the owners IMO.

I sure hope that this made sense and flowed. I was inerupted numerous times as I was putting it together....


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## Conan (Jan 4, 2011)

My quick two cents:

RCI Points is looking to me like a niche product - - the niche(s) being RCI Weeks reservations in low demand/off season locations, and a few popular and expensive Points locations that can be had reliably at 10 months out (sometimes for less than a full week).  Also last-minute bargains on the Weeks side but I almost never find these useful.

Wyndham is a good product, but its usefulness in RCI Weeks is mostly a thing of the past, so it only makes sense if you're looking to stay at Wyndham locations and you're satisfied to pay whatever your home resort charges for maintenance (plus dues).

The new RCI Weeks I think is the winner.  It's transparent and you get change back if your deposit is more valuable than the vacation you choose.


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## siesta (Jan 4, 2011)

Conan said:


> Wyndham is a good product, but its usefulness in RCI Weeks is mostly a thing of the past


Not sure if this is accurate, and it might be prudent to wait for the change in January before making these types of statements.  If everything works as they say (which may be a big if), wyndham owners will enjoy exchanges for less or about the same price (MF) as HGVC owners, without all the upfront cost.  (HGvC will start yielding better deals @ ~$200 less at 7000+ point packages)


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## siesta (Jan 4, 2011)

*here is my math*

_If an HGVC owner and a Wyndham owner book the same exchange who got the better deal?

Wyndham owner would pay 143k points for a 1br prime thru rci, and typical contracts are ~$5 per thousand points, so approx. 143X$5=$715 in MF

A HGVC owner would have to pay 3400 points for a 1br prime thru rci, now the cost will matter if one has a 3500, 5000, 7000 point contract due to the way MF are billed. On ebay I see a 3500 point contract at Hilton Karen, is $960, that's out. I see a I-Drive with MF of $795, that's out too. 

Moving on to 5000 point. I see a hilton vegas blvd for ~$850. That is about $578 for the exchange week. A difference of $137. A seaworld 5000 point contract is ~$1000, that is $680 for the exchanged week, so a diff of $35

Now to a 7000 point contract with MF of around ~$1000 would give you the week for around $485. A difference of $230.

My point is, the luckiest of hgvc owners are paying thousands of dollars for a resale on ebay, unless they get lucky with a property in vegas without ROFR. And they will either get a worse deal, a $137 deal, or a $230 deal. 

Considering I got my contract for a $1 with free closing, I would say these cheaply acquired points are holding their own quite well. This is my opinion of course, and obviously my numbers above may not represent the best deals you can get for either system MF wise, but it was to show a general point._


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## Conan (Jan 4, 2011)

143K Wyndham points in maintenance, Wyndham dues, and RCI exchange fee for me is nearly $1,000 and that's the price for 1-BR.  I call that not very useful, compared to using the points in Wyndham and not having to pay an RCI fee.

No doubt I'm spoiled.  My last three Wyndham exchanges into RCI before the change were: 

28,000 points for a week at Hotel Deutschmeister, Vienna ($350 including exchange fee), 

28,000 points for a 1-BR in late summer at a highly rated resort in Greece ($350 including exchange fee), and 

70,000 points for a 2-BR in Umbria, Italy ($580 including exchange fee).


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## siesta (Jan 4, 2011)

yes, indeed the days of 28k trades are over.  And even though soon you can trade without a glass ceiling, you will have to pay more for that ability.  These are undoubtedly the facts, some may prefer it, some may not.  But to imply that exchanging wyndham points in RCI weeks is obsolete, doesn't seem to be a very fair analysis.


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## TS_Fan (Jan 4, 2011)

Thank you all for your replies regarding the RCI points and fishingguy, thank you VERY much for taking the time to look up that information on Arizona.  There is SOO much to learn about these points based systems that I feel like I have no grasp on any of it.  I'll try to just keep learning.

Thanks again.


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## chriskre (Jan 4, 2011)

TS_Fan said:


> Thank you all for your replies regarding the RCI points and fishingguy, thank you VERY much for taking the time to look up that information on Arizona.  There is SOO much to learn about these points based systems that I feel like I have no grasp on any of it.  I'll try to just keep learning.
> 
> Thanks again.



Stick around and keep studying.
Don't rush into anything.
Timeshares aren't going anywhere.  
Ask lots of questions here.
We love Newbies.  

And as Fishingguy said, PFD (points for deposit) is a great benefit to supplement a small points contract.  I just did one with a resort that I use every other year and do a PFD every other year.  It's truly the best of both worlds in terms of value for me.


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## TS_Fan (Jan 4, 2011)

*PFD?*

I hate to sound like an idiot, but what is PFD?


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## chriskre (Jan 4, 2011)

TS_Fan said:


> I hate to sound like an idiot, but what is PFD?



Sorry about that.
PFD = Points for Deposit.
It's when you deposit a week at a non points resort and RCI gives you some RCI points.   They will only give you RCI points if the resort does NOT sell RCI points.  If they do sell them then you can't do it.  Must be some kind of developer agreement with the resorts and RCI.


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## fishingguy (Jan 4, 2011)

*pfd info*

TS_Fan,
You can search the forum to get more info on PFD.  You can also search for the latest conversion grid that identifies how the various units at a resort will convert to PFD points.

Here's an article and a post to get you started:
http://www.tug2.net/advice/tugrcipoints.html
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23848


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## Rent_Share (Jan 5, 2011)

chriskre said:


> Stick around and keep studying.
> Don't rush into anything.
> Timeshares aren't going anywhere.


 
But MF's (Maintenance Fees) are sure to rise, and are forever until you can legitimately transfer the deed/contract out of your name, or die.


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## Tacoma (Jan 10, 2011)

TS Fan

I was wondering if you have looked at owning worldmark?  Living in Washington if you can afford the higher upfront costs you would then have access to around 60 resorts with no exchange fees.  It also trades well in Interval  and has been my "must have timeshare" for about 5 years.  Finally bought it a year ago and love everything about it.  Especially the ability to split a week into 2 resorts with only an extra cleaninfg fee.

Joan


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## TS_Fan (Jan 11, 2011)

Hi Joan,

I don't really know anything abut Worldmark (I am really new to all of this) but am interested in learning more...especially if they have resorts in the Northwest and West Coast.  Can you tell me more about it and how you can split a week into two resorts?  Is Worldmark affiliated with II for exchanges or is it RCI?  Also, what are the MF like?

Thanks,

Chet


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## Tacoma (Jan 12, 2011)

Sorry I don't really know how to link you to the site but google Worldmark the club and you will find the site.  Look at the 60 locations that they have.  Many are very close to you.  You buy a package of points, common numbers are 6,000 and 10,000.  I bought a 10,000 points package since most 2 bedrooms are 10.000 and I have 2 teenagers. When you check out the site you can look at individual resorts.  Scroll down to the bottom and you will see how many points it takes to book each of their room types for a week in red, white and blue seasons.

 You can book 13 months in advance and the most popular resorts do get booked out early.  For red season you must book 7 days minimum (until 3 months ahead I think) unless when you are searching there are days that you want that do not make up an entire week.  Worldmark also has a superb wait list system, you ask to be put on a list and they contact you when it becomes available.  Last week I waitlisted for 2 days in a 2 bedroom at Cabo (front building only) over New Year's and it already came through. People say that often only a day or two at a time for your waitlist will come up but you take them and then stay on the waitlist for the other days. Since there are no fees for booking and cancelling up to 30 days before a reservation many people book more than they need and cancel.

Worldmark trades in both II and RCI so you can join one or both.  It is apparently a great trader in both systems.  In II you can either do a request first or deposit first.  I requested Christmas week in Hawaii or Kaui on Saturday last weekend and matched already on Sunday.  I should have been pickier I guess I got a 1 bedroom in a middle of the road resort right on the beach(Pona Kai).  I am slightly unhappy that it costs 9,000 points for a 1 bedroom exchange, 10,000 points for a 2 bedroom exchange and 12,000 points for a 3 bedroom.  Knowing that now I will not likely do a request first for a 1 bedroom but live and learn.  I do have Christmas week in Hawaii a full year out and only 1 day after searching. (You may have guessed Cabo was my backup in case Hawaii didn't come through so I have already cancelled my week in Cabo)

Things I love like I said next summer I am spending 3 nights in Vancouver and then 4 nights in Victoria.  That meets the requirement of booking a full week in red season but I don't have to stay in one resort.  This is called a grouped booking and you have to call in you can't book it on line.  The only extra charge is the extra cleaning fee.  They have bonus time, inventory specials and Monday madness all of which let you book rooms without using your points.  They make it very easy to book for friends there are no extra charges and once again you can cancel up to 30 days out.  If you run out of points early (like me) you can arrange to rent points from another owner for around 5-6 cents a point.  People also rent housekeeping tokens usually for around $55-$60.

Maintenance fees are based on the number of points you have and this year they were 474.25 for 6,000 points, 584.81 for 10,000 points, and 1027.05 for 20,000 points.  So you can see it gets a little cheaper per point as you have a larger account.  The best part is they can only raise the maintenance fees a maximum of 5% per year.  2011's fees are going up by 4%.

Read up and let me know what you think.

Joan

The best places to learn about worldmark is their site for locations here by doing a search or at worldmark by owners a site very much like TUG  but only for worldmark owners.


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## chriskre (Jan 12, 2011)

Rent_Share said:


> But MF's (Maintenance Fees) are sure to rise, and are forever until you can legitimately transfer the deed/contract out of your name, or die.



Forever?  Are you gonna live forever?  
I don't think I'm gonna live forever so I truly don't care what happens to it after I'm long gone.  I'll let the resort worry about that.  I just won't leave it to anyone when I die so they don't have to worry about it.  

Last I checked, dead people aren't paying MF's.


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## ambrosij (Jan 23, 2011)

BUMP this could really use a sticky


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## vamsee (Jan 23, 2011)

Thanks for explaining this. If a resort does not sell RCI points and says on their website that they exchange with II does that mean that they can't be deposited into RCI Weeks? That is, does the resort need an agreement with RCI weeks before owners can deposit to RCI weeks?



chriskre said:


> Sorry about that.
> PFD = Points for Deposit.
> It's when you deposit a week at a non points resort and RCI gives you some RCI points.   They will only give you RCI points if the resort does NOT sell RCI points.  If they do sell them then you can't do it.  Must be some kind of developer agreement with the resorts and RCI.


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## vacationhopeful (Jan 23, 2011)

vamsee said:


> If a resort does not sell RCI points and says on their website that they exchange with II does that mean that they can't be deposited into RCI Weeks?  YES. That is, does the resort need an agreement with RCI weeks before owners can deposit to RCI weeks? YES



Sorry, if your resort is only II affiliated, it can not be converted to RCI Points or PFD to get more RCI Points.


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## Tommart (Jan 23, 2011)

*Vacation Village Resorts*



TS_Fan said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I lurked here for several months before signing up and we made our first TS purchase (Shell Vacation Club - Hawaii)........
> 
> ...


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## Tommart (Jan 23, 2011)

*Learning at a Timeshare Presentation -- an Oxymoran*



TS_Fan said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I lurked here for several months before signing up and we made our first TS purchase (Shell Vacation Club - Hawaii) after we returned from a trip to Hawaii in November where we went to their presentation (bought resale on eBay for $1.00).



Chester,
In 2009, we stayed at a Shell resort in Hawaii and went through the presentation.  I liked the Shell product. 

I still go to presentations because I think I learn from them.

In September, went to a presentation at Woodstone (yea, I already own two lockouts at Woodstone.  The second I bought through resale.)  I asked questions about the RCI Points system, and the salesman told me that I should buy a Weeks resort.  With RCI Points, there's more complexity, extra fees and you're not guaranteed a specific week.  (I should have asked why then are many of the newer VV resorts RCI Points.)

More recently, I attended a presentation at Orange Lake in Orlando.  The salesman told that I needed to buy at a RCI Points resort before RCI Weeks dies and because I would have more resorts available to exchange.  I asked questions about RCI Points and the Holidaty Inn Vacation Club system, but never got clear answers. The HIVC is a complicated system that I still don't understand.

So what have I learned from attending these presentations?  I've learned that I need to go to places like TUG to learn about timeshares and not from salesmen.  

Next planned vacation, Hilton at Flamingo, in Las Vegas.  I'll probably attend their presentation as well.   

Tom


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