# Looking for MR, Fare buckets and Routing Rule mentor(s)



## John&Laurie (Apr 28, 2006)

One of my favorite sayings is "it is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt".  I completely enjoy TUG and I actually enjoy the newbie questions that seem to get asked over and over and over again.  I say this because the first time the question is asked I say wow what a great question.  The next time it is asked it helps clarify the answer from the first time.  About the 3rd or 4th time. I think gee I knew that answer, damn I am getting better at this timeshare stuff.

Unfortunately, not all message forums have the same patience as TUGers.  Ask any sort of question below the expert level and the response seems to be go read the stickies or use the search function, go away don't bother us.  Using the search function or reading the stickies from 1998 provides some historical insight.  However, the link title <what ever> located <where ever> on a webpage was long ago redesigned or relabeled doesn't help me much.

Quite a few people seem to use frequent travel awards for timeshare related travel.  This has made me sensitive to mileage accumulation and wanting to better understand the concept behind maximizing mileage and bonus miles.

I was hoping the next time someone put together or explored a potential MR they wouldn't mind sharing the specific steps with me so I could try and duplicate and understand them.  Thanks.

John


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## Dave M (Apr 28, 2006)

*Mileage runs, low fares and maximizing FF miles....*

The basics are actually quite straightforward.

My example is that I try to maximize my FF miles earned on United (“UA”). To do so, I have done the following:

1. I have a UA Visa card, which I use for everything. Routine bills, groceries, travel, everything.

2. I signed up at the UA website, as part of my UA Mileage Plus program profile, to get an e-mail for every offer, promotion, bonus or other mileage opportunity that might be available. 

3. I spend a fair amount of time reading the UA forum at FlyerTalk to find offers, promotions, bonuses or other opportunities that I might have missed or misunderstood.

4. I plan my travel many months ahead. Currently, I have tickets for 11 plane trips - all personal - between now and mid-September, with another 8-10 on the drawing boards between now and year-end. Planning for those trips involves a lot of fare watching and the use of a lot of fare tools. One simple example is Travelocity's Dream Maps, which identifies lowest fares from my city to other cities.

5. I try to plan trips around likely bonus opportunities. For example, in each of the past two years, UA has had a promotion offering double base miles that qualify for elite (or increased elite) status from October 25 through December 15. Thus, to take advantage of that opportunity if it's offered again this year, I have penciled in some UA air travel for that seven-week period that I might not otherwise have taken or might have taken at another time.

6. I normally plan my flights to take advantage of extra mileage earning opportunities. Example: I have a trip to Denver (from Boston) planned over Memorial Day weekend. On the return, I will fly from Denver to San Francisco and then back to Boston for the same fare as if I had simply flown nonstop from Denver to Boston. Similarly, on a trip to Dallas earlier this month, the fare was the same on the return by flying from Dallas to Los Angeles to Boston as if I had flown from Dallas directly to Boston. So why not do the extra flying if I have time! It takes a bit of creativity to find such opportunities at first, but eventually, it becomes as automatic as remembering how to ride a bicycle!

7. I hung around the Mileage Run forum at FlyerTalk for a while and eventually got enough courage to try a mileage run myself, following the suggestions on that forum, especially in some of the mileage run tools such as the Mileage Run Primer located in one of the sticky threads at the top of that forum. Note that a true mileage run is a trip for no other reason than to earn FF miles or additional status in an airline's FF program. Not a vacation or business trip. Thus the trip is to whatever city results in the most FF miles for the least cost. That’s where a tool like Dream Maps comes in very handy.

8. Even after I started thinking of myself as somewhat of an expert mileage runner, I attended one of the free mileage run seminars offered in another sticky thread at the top of that Mileage Run forum. I learned a lot. I expect to attend a more advanced version of that seminar this year. Because some of the mileage run techniques are .. er .. um .. not publicized (like TUGgers secrets for getting good timeshare exchanges), I also use techniques that I learned only at the seminar.

9. I find my lowest ticket prices in a number of different ways, utilizing the tools mentioned here, at Flyer Talk and in the seminar I attended. Then I go to UA's website and try to duplicate the fare, buying my ticket online to get the FF mileage bonus for buying my ticket at UA's website.

10. Thus, the secret is to take the time - and it takes quite a bit of time - to learn how to use the various tools to your advantage and to frequently check the sources for opportunities for lower fares and/or maximizing miles.


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## copper (Apr 29, 2006)

Great subject and already a post with valuable information from one of the most helpful tuggers. 

Since I live near a small city with very limited opportunities for affordable MRs, I look for opportunities when I travel. A recent meeting in DC allowed me to look for runs out of BWI and DCA. A vacation stay in Vegas 3 weeks ago was another opportunity as is upcoming trips into MCO, SEA, SAT and DSM. 

VPescado on Flyertalk has an excellent ink on how to start. I have yet to attend one of the seminars metioned by Dave but I do want to attend as I believe I could increase my FF miles accumulation substantially.


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## camachinist (Apr 29, 2006)

OK, John, you asked 

First, low fares....you appear to be close to CLT.

http://www.farecompare.com/search/myAirportCategoryMap?departure=CLT&category=Domestic

Then, once I identify a few routings that have potential low fare buckets, I refine them a bit with ExpertFlyer, a subscription service. There is also a free tool, called the KVS Availability Tool, that mileage runners use.

https://www.expertflyer.com/

Example:


```
Fare Details
 
Departing Airport 	CLT
Arriving Airport 	SFO
Departure Date 	05/06/06
 
Note:
The fares listed do not include airport and/or security fees.
 
Fare Basis 	Airline 	Booking Class 	Trip Type 	Fare 	Effective Date 	Expiration Date 	 
80 Fares Returned
K21X3V7N 	NW 	K 	Round-Trip 	152.00 (USD) 		06/14/06 	View Rules    View Routing
TSR0WKNN 	CO 	T 	Round-Trip 	269.00 (USD) 			View Rules    View Routing
LR0NR 	NW 	L 	Round-Trip 	298.00 (USD) 			View Rules    View Routing
SA7BSN 	CO 	S 	One-Way 	157.00 (USD) 		06/15/06 	View Rules    View Routing
WA7PZN 	CO 	W 	One-Way 	162.00 (USD) 		09/12/06 	View Rules    View Routing
QA3PNN 	CO 	Q 	One-Way 	182.00 (USD) 			View Rules    View Routing
QR7W1N 	NW 	Q 	Round-Trip 	398.00 (USD) 			View Rules    View Routing
```

I also pull up routing and fare rules on ExpertFlyer, to see what the limitations are, as well has how creative I can get with routing, as Dave mentioned (the extra segments).

With fare basis, carrier and some routing parameters in mind, I then go to ITA, where I work to construct detailed routings, using the information I've gleaned. Learning how to code ITA to search for specific flights/fares/routings takes time. I'm still learning. The site is free but you need to register to use it.

http://matrix.itasoftware.com/cvg/dispatch/prego

I generally construct multi-city trips, rather than round trips. There are some rules to be aware of when doing this, if the goal is maximizing miles/segments, and those are best learned in a seminar, like Dave likely has, or by experience/research.

Once I find segments which book into the fare basis and on the carrier I desire, I then proceed to the airline site to duplicate the results. Some folks use Expedia/Orbitz/Travelocity to make bookings, but I've always booked directly on the airline site.

IME, I have also come across fares on the airline sites which have not yet (if ever) been loaded to the wider reservation system. Some of my mileage runs have been the result of those finds. I also have a list I developed of lesser known airports which often have low fares O&D (origination and destination). Additionally, for mileage runs, the availability of cheap parking, airline lounges (free food/drink) and cheap hotels (if an overnight) come into play.

The best way to learn is by experience, or to attend one of the seminars that Dave talked about. He's right about many of the tricks being undiscussed. I've discussed the obvious stuff here. 

There is also a sub-culture of using other means, like credit cards, promos and partners to accumulate elite status and redeemable miles. That's a whole different topic . I would recommend, though, that you focus on one or two airlines which take you nearly everwhere you wish to go and do as good as you can on those airlines. Personally, I focus on UA, with AA being secondary. Star Alliance serves everywhere we wish to go, and I can fly UA to most every common destination I travel to. For example, last month, UA took us to Osaka-Tokyo, Sydney-Melbourne, New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles and (unfortunately re-scheduled due to a health problem) Dublin via London. This was all on UA metal (airplanes). IMO, it's being able to concentrate travel this way which pays off. My wife travels a myriad of airlines (AA, WN, UA, DL, HP) and has only minor status on UA and a smattering of miles across all carriers. I help her to maximize her holdings, but it still pales in comparison to what I achieve by concentrating on a couple of carriers.

Edited to add that, except for Japan, all other trips were true mileage runs, with no more than 24 hours at the destination, and averaged 3.5 cents per mile flown, based on elite qualifying miles (EQM's)... MEL was the highest, at 3.87.

Good luck and safe travels!

Pat


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## John&Laurie (Apr 29, 2006)

I have always enjoyed computer games and (MMORPG) massively multiplayer online role-playing games.  My New Year's resolution was to spend less time playing virtual online games (and spend more quality time with my wife Laurie.)  I have replaced MMORPG with TUG and Flyertalk and added a little gardening/ landscaping time with Laurie.

Dave M thanks for the overview of the basics, I had not considered the longer term focus necessary for successful trip planning.  Most of my travels have been short holiday family trips home to BOS.  Most airline always had dirt cheap fares immediately before the holidays.  While they may not have been the best flights or dates, they provided the excuse for the short visits home (ie wish I could have stayed longer but took the more affordable flights).

Cooper raises an interesting idea.  Rather than making only short holiday family trips home, create a MR originating in BOS or PVD.  Same idea might work with the inlaws in ATL.

Pat found the major piece that I was missing:



			
				camachinist said:
			
		

> Then, once I identify a few routings that have potential low fare buckets, I refine them a bit with ExpertFlyer, a subscription service. There is also a free tool, called the KVS Availability Tool, that mileage runners use.
> 
> K21X3V7N 	NW 	K 	Round-Trip 	152.00 (USD) 		06/14/06 	*View Rules    View Routing*



I did not relate "availability" with "Rules" and "Routing."  I downloaded the KVS Availability Tool as the next step. Hopefully, it will show the NW K fare buckets. If not, then I will subscribe to Expert Flyer.  Its monthly premium subscription is comparable to most MMORPG subscriptions.

My wife Laurie just started a new job which involves working two weekends per month and no vacation for the first six months.  I am hoping to find a mileage run seminar scheduled after September so we both can attend.

Thanks for the help.

John


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## camachinist (Apr 29, 2006)

> I did not relate "availability" with "Rules" and "Routing." I downloaded the KVS Availability Tool as the next step. Hopefully, it will show the NW K fare buckets.



Although individual preferences vary, my preferred method is:

1. Find the fare
2. Read the rules and routings
3. Check availability
4. Construct the routing
5. Book

KVS does look at availability as well as fare metrics; in fact, many mileage runners prefer it. I just find the interface and features at ExpertFlyer easier to use.

Only FF realm I have not pierced so far is the realm of mistake fares. I've done three trips now on mistake rates (hotels), but have yet to get in on an airfare deal. Maybe someday 

Pat


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## TerriJ (Apr 29, 2006)

Very intriguing....I may have to try it some day.  I do love to read and that could be an interesting way to earn miles.


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## Dana123me (May 2, 2006)

I am curious is it better to but tickets when they first come at(329 day window) or should you keep checking.  I am planning a ORD to MCO trip for Mar 2007 and prices are $300.  I did the same trip for under $200 in March 2006, and booked  in Sept.


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## camachinist (May 2, 2006)

I would book March in Sept-Nov, especially this year, since fuel prices are so high (bubbling, IMO). 

I've only rarely gotten smoking good deals more than 6-8 months out. A recent anomaly was the AA 135.00 transcons a bunch of us bought in August, 2004, which were good until end of schedule.

Pat


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## JillChang (May 3, 2006)

I agree with OP, those people in Flyertalk are MEAN and with attittudes, their airline status is everything... they are not nice as Tuggers.

I think there should be a section in TUG devoted to flying since most of us need to fly to our timeshares.


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## camachinist (May 3, 2006)

JillChang said:
			
		

> I agree with OP, those people in Flyertalk are MEAN and with attittudes, their airline status is everything... they are not nice as Tuggers.
> 
> I think there should be a section in TUG devoted to flying since most of us need to fly to our timeshares.


hehe, we're not all mean.... 

Since I post over there with the same username, my posting tone is pretty easy to guage. I'm also a mileage/status runner and seek out and pursue travel provider mistakes. I trend towards the "obsessive" end of the range.. 

I see FlyerTalk a lot like what I experience when I travel to NYC. People aren't rude there, just direct. Once I understood that, I came to really like New Yorkers..... I've met a good number of FlyerTalker's personally (most recently in Japan) and find them to be amongst the most intelligent and generous people I've met. Much like TUG'ers.

The real gift of FlyerTalk, as with TUG, is the depth of knowledge and experience contained within the pages. I read for a good two years before ever making a post. If you look hard enough, the answer to nearly every common travel question can be found, in depth.

Safe travels and enjoy GM!

Edited to add that I think the moderator had considered a sub-forum for fare/flight deals, but decided against it. Considering a lot of TUG'ers use FF miles (award tickets) to fly to their timeshares, I agree with you. Award flying is a science unto itself 

Pat


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## sfwilshire (May 3, 2006)

I agree that the tone is not as friendly at FlyerTalk, but there ARE some great people there. I posted a question last year regarding ff tickets. One individual in particular spent a lot of time emailing me with suggestions. I actually got four tickets exactly when I needed them. I never could have done it on my own.

This year, however, I posted a request for help in finding an affordable fare, and was scolded by a moderator with several comments about them not being a travel agency. He moved the post and nobody ever responded. I just thought that someone more experienced who likes to search (like I enjoy searching for exchanges to see what's out there) might come up with something for me.

Sheila


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## short (May 3, 2006)

Mileage runners clearly do this as a hobby, not because it is financially worthwhile.  Everytime I cost out a mileage run I am getting cost of of well above the cost of buying miles directly from UA for .025 cents per mile.  I am adding to the cost of a ticket $45 for mileage driving to the airport, $10 parking per day, $25 buying overpriced food at the airport while you are flying to all you stops and ? possible hotel room of you get stuck somewhere because of weather.  If I add the value of my time even working a minimum wage job, net after taxes I am finding why don't I just save the time and money of a MR and apply it to the next real trip buying a first class ticket outright.  Then I don't need to worry about what my status is or what airlines I fly or worrying about my place in line for and upgrade.  Let all those Plat. flyers sit in the back. 

The only worthwhile reason to be a Plat on an airline that I can see is perhaps better availability to use the FF you all are accumulating.

I was looking at NW frequent flyer search tools and noted that I could fly to HI HNL from LAX using FF saver awards almost any week in July.  I would, however, have to fly on tue or Wed.  My new hobby will be to find out what patterns of travel have the most FF saver tickets and see if I can fit my vacation travel to that.

Short


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## iiderman (May 3, 2006)

Before you start planning a career as a mileage runner, make sure your hard earned miles are worth something!  Here's an article you might want to read from USA Today's Travel Section (posted April 24):

THE FRIDAY-NIGHT FREQUENT FLIER MASSACRE

Big companies and politicians often bury bad news by releasing it on Friday because it means that the unhappy tidings first appear in the seldom-read Saturday newspapers. When they have particularly bad news, companies announce it after the New York markets close at 4 p.m. And when they have unbelievably rotten information to own up to, they release it on a Friday before a major holiday when they think no one at all is paying attention.

Earlier this month, United Airlines announced a new package of fees and higher award levels for its Mileage Plus frequent-flier program. At 5:10 p.m. on Good Friday.

Since we know what United thinks about the annoying new fees and jacked-up reward levels by the timing of its release, there's no reason for us to waste any space formulating an analysis of the specifics. As you can see for yourself in United's announcement, the changes are at least as horrible as the airline's tortured attempt to bury them would seem. 

We're better served by discussing what the changes say about United and Mileage Plus in particular and about the increasing devaluation of Big Six frequent-flier plans in general. Herewith some thoughts about those very topics.

The big airlines think you're gullible

With their total seat capacity down sharply since 9/11 and paid travel demand roughly back to year 2000 levels, the Big Six airlines have precious few seats available for frequent-flier redemption. And judging from the howls of protest from fliers who never quite realized that the Big Six were serious when they said the cheapest-priced awards were "restricted," the airlines are gearing up for a summer of discontent about restricted-award availability. But rather than own up to the shortfall, United Airlines said this in its Good Friday press release: "United has reserved a percentage of Saver Award [restricted] seats on every flight to every international and domestic destination."

What's the percentage? United doesn't say. How many seats on each flight are we talking about? Again, United is mum. But let's do a little math: A United Airbus A319 in domestic service is configured with 120 seats. If United reserves just two of those seats for restricted awards, that would be a "percentage" of 1.66. A United Boeing 747-400 in international service is configured with 347 seats. If United reserves just four of those seats for restricted awards, that's a "percentage" of 1.15. See how easy it is to manipulate the "reserve a percentage" game when you don't commit to something tangible?

Learned your lesson about 'mileage banks' now?

If you look at United's new award chart, which goes into effect on October 16, you'll see that most of the award levels have increased. An unrestricted first-class ticket to Hawaii, for example, will cost 190,000 miles, up from the current 160,000 miles. That's an increase of 18.75%. An unrestricted first-class award to Australia has jumped to 270,000 miles from 200,000 miles, an increase of 35%. An unrestricted domestic coach award will cost 50,000 miles, up from the current 40,000, or a 25% jump.

It's useless to try to compute the "average" Mileage Plus award cost increase because no one claims the "average" award. But one thing we can say: Any United miles you have in your Mileage Plus account are going to be devalued by around 20% when the new award charts become effective. So now do you understand why I've been telling you for years not to treat your frequent-flier accounts like bank accounts? There simply is no, er, "percentage" in allowing miles to sit unused in a Big Six frequent-flier account. Use them now or watch them continue to devalue like a third-world currency. 

What a difference 50 miles makes

United's Good Friday night massacre makes much of its so-called Short-Haul Saver Awards. Introduced by the Big Six for limited periods in recent years, these awards have typically required just 15,000 miles for a restricted roundtrip on routes of up to 750 miles each way. But in extending its program through 2006, United capped the applicable routes at just 700 miles. What purpose is served by looking petty and knocking 50 miles off the 15,000-mile award? Plenty. A slew of routes are no longer eligible for the "short-haul" award, including those from United's Chicago/O'Hare hub to New York/LaGuardia (731 miles), Newark (717), Montreal (745) and Winnipeg (706).

New surcharges spring up

Come October, United will charge a fee of $50 if you book an award seat less than 14 days before departure. Book within six days of departure and that fee jumps to $75. These surcharges won't apply to United's ultra-frequent customers (Mileage Plus 1Ks and Global Services members), but all other elite fliers and regular travelers will pay. What rationale can United have for these fees other than it is an opportunity to beat more revenue out of customers who have already paid for the right to claim the award?

Forget loyalty

Finally, this must be said: The new fees and award levels that United is imposing are not onerous if you compare them hypothetically to the fees and award levels charged by the other Big Six carriers. Mileage Plus award levels and fees starting in October will generally be in line with other big U.S. airlines. (And those huge new mileage increases for Australia awards are designed to put United on a par with what Qantas charges its frequent fliers for free seats.)

United has traditionally kept Mileage Plus somewhat richer and somewhat less expensive than the competition. But now the airline is sticking it to their best customers, the very flierss who stuck with them through the 2000 meltdown and the three-plus years of bankruptcy.


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## Dave M (May 3, 2006)

short said:
			
		

> Mileage runners clearly do this as a hobby, not because it is financially worthwhile.


I think most of us who do it would admit it's not financially worthwhile. However, just as some people decide to spend more for a car, more (or any amount) for tickets to a ball game or more for a particular vacation, so, too, do we choose to spend money on our hobby of  mileage running.  





> Everytime I cost out a mileage run I am getting cost of of well above the cost of buying miles directly from UA for .025 cents per mile.  I am adding to the cost of a ticket $45 for mileage driving to the airport, $10 parking per day, $25 buying overpriced food at the airport while you are flying to all you stops and ? possible hotel room of you get stuck somewhere because of weather.


Ah! That's the challenge! My better mileage runs cost less than one cent per mile. And I value those miles earned, based on the way I use them, at well over two cents per mile. 

I rarely eat in an airport. On longer mileage runs most or all of my meals are in the air. For example, on a typical three-day round trip between Boston and Singapore, I'll eat eight meals, all in the air: BOS-SFO 1, SFO-NRT (Tokyo) 2, NRT-SIN 1 and the same meals on the return flights. 

Yes, I might stay in a hotel, but for my Singapore run, as an example, it's an in-airport hotel, behind security, that costs only $37 for the night and gives me access to a workout room!  





> If I add the value of my time even working a minimum wage job....


I don't think that's an applicable comparison for any hobby, whether it's getting exercise, going to a ball game, vacationing or, in this case, mileage running. We do it because we enjoy it, not because we are trying to financially justify it.





> The only worthwhile reason to be a Plat on an airline that I can see is perhaps better availability to use the FF you all are accumulating.


Here are some more reasons that some of us believe to be worthwhile, particularly when considered together:
Early boarding to stow overhead bags
Frequent upgrades to first class or business class
Exemption from some fees, such as in-person or phone ticketing fee, award redemption handling fee and award cancellation or change fee
Priority standby for full flights
Priority for compensable bump opportunities
Lower membership fees for airline lounge club
Guaranteed opportunity to purchase seat on sold-out flights
Extra baggage allowance
Extra award seats available only to elite members
Extra FF miles earned for flying, based on status
Priority airport check-in lines
Free access to some airline lounges, especially when traveling internationally
No limit to the number of FF miles that can be earned annually with the airline's affinity credit card


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## camachinist (May 3, 2006)

The most concise answer I can think of here is the one Bill Rogers (or whoever developed TUG's pages) put on the front page....

"Knowledge is power"

Most people don't understand the concept of mileage running, just as they don't understand the concept of buying timeshares a half a world away to stay at a 5 star resort 5 hours away. It's all about the learning process, which does two things; firstly and foremostly, it expands one's mind to the possibilities, which is the biggest limitation I see in the "normal" traveling public. It also exercises one's mind, which research is beginning to support the concept of a longer-lived cognitive state, to match our increasingly longer-lived physical state.

FWIW, my travels in March cost ~$.035 per EQM and $.00857 per RDM. I pay for my RCC membership (free food and beverage) with RDM's and try to fly out of a couple of local airports which have free parking. Due to the mistake rates in Japan, our total hotel bill in Japan was under $100.00. Need I go on? 

I see it the same as TUG'ers relating their great exchange and purchase deals, which I know for a fact just don't "happen". They've worked hard for them and I admire their intelligence and work ethic. We all benefit from their hard work.

For the traveler who got snubbed while looking for a good fare, my apologies. You should know that FlyerTalk is mostly about the hows, rather than the actual numbers (the exception to this is the Mileage Runner forum, but that isn't what you were interested in), and everything you need to know of the "how" is contained in its pages, which can be searched either on-site r via Google. I'm still discovering how's that have been there all along. Just discovered one today, regarding a Hong Kong consolidator which has great fares both intra-Asia and Int'l, as an example; great for a nested MR when visiting Asia. 

For me, the biggest change in my travel experience since joining FlyerTalk (and TUG) is that the process is much smoother, I'm more relaxed, and I travel much more on less money than I ever did before. I don't include the "cost" of my education in that equation, since it is knowledge and technique that will last a lifetime. When I look at the chaos in the airports that I travel through, and the passengers yelling at airline employees, I can only be sympathetic. If they just knew there was another way 

Pat


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## JillChang (May 3, 2006)

ok, ok, I will keep reading flyertalk to learn more  

But before I work up another courage to post a question (got scolded last time), can anyone help me find a decent fare YYZ - ACA, march 10-17?  I have been searchin and couldn't find anything under $950 CAD.  

I have 4 choices:

1.  wait for a sale, which seems unlikely at the moment.
2.  get award seats, I need two, preferrably business clas, I belong to *A
3.  Skyauction has a "major US airline" business fare for $999 a person flying out of Buffalo, 2 hours from here.
4.  Another auction site offers 2 American Airline Business ticket out of Toronto for $999, but no miles.

What do u think?


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