# Schools reopening or not



## "Roger"

*Time out is over - play nice!  DeniseM*

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There has been some discussion about this in another thread, but there is so much bickering on that thread, I wonder if the discussion is getting lost as some people avoid the thread. It is such an important topic, I think it deserves its own thread.

For openers, I am posting two pieces from _The Washington Post_ below that discuss the matter. One is an anti opening piece, one is a fuller discussion of the pros and cons.

@Cornell, you will be happy to know that you convinced me that a full opening would be best. On the other hand, when I mention that to others, I get the negatives seen in the two articles thrown at me. To be honest, I don't think there is a good answer. No matter what, there will be big negatives.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/07/01/teacher-parents-need-go-work-does-not-stop-covid-19-school-entrance/
		




			https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-health-202/2020/07/02/the-health-202-to-open-schools-in-the-fall-or-not-that-is-one-pressing-coronavirus-question/5efcb571602ff10807193565/
		


I might mention one issue that has come up locally in my area. If some sort of hybred plan is adopted that allows for some social distancing, what to do about school busses. If they try to keep the number of kids on a bus down, there will not be enough busses available.


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## bbodb1

@Luanne had posted a resource developed by the New Mexico Dept of Ed on how that state was addressing this question:



Luanne said:


> New Mexico Dept of Education produced a 25 page document on schools.  It addresses a closed, hybrid and completely open scenarios.  If anyone is interested, here is the link.
> 
> https://webnew.ped.state.nm.us/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/20NMPED_ReentryGuide_Hybrid.pdf



...and that set up seems to be gaining traction around the country. 

Our district (at present) seems to be trying a similar approach.  Parents can opt to have their students attend school in person or virtually.  But one restriction that concerns me is our district is saying that once this choice is made, it can only be changed at semester break.  I understand why the district does not want to allow a back and forth (between in person and remote learning) to occur on a frequent basis, but the limit of changes made only at the semester break seems to restrictive.

Among the aspects of reopening that concern me at present, how will the district respond to Roger's question:


> ...I might mention one issue that has come up locally in my area. If some sort of hybred plan is adopted that allows for some social distancing, what to do about school busses. If they try to keep the number of kids on a bus down, there will not be enough busses available...



Our district (at this time) wants to keep bus schedules as they were previously.  Additionally, masks for students are recommended.  This is going to be a problem area.


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## missyrcrews

And if the parents choose to keep the child home, then there has to be some sort of accountability.  I agree that the semester is too far in for that.  Kids fell off the academic radar once parents were responsible.  Not good.  In so many instances...IN MY SCHOOL DISTRICT (can't speak for others)….the child is better off at school.  Emotionally, physically, mentally.


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## bbodb1

Not meaning to simply state the obvious here, but I think it is fairly universal that everyone believes all kids should be physically back in school for many reasons.  The issues on how to do this safely have become much more complex over the past 4 months.  Some students may need to be educated from home (i.e. remote learning) due to health concerns and schools need to be prepared for this BUT the reality is remote learning is inferior to physically being in school.

Schools need to reconfigure many of their environments in order to increase the likelihood of providing safe (healthy) environments.  My concern is many districts will not do this - in other words, students will still be crammed into the same classrooms they left last year, at the same numbers (meaning students per grade and students per classroom).


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## elaine

At our (upper middle class) school in VA/DC suburbs, my friend who subbed there and has a HS freshman said she's "400% sure that at least 50% of kids did not log onto school website at all this spring" and her kid only did it because she made a schedule, was home all day to monitor, and checked his work. If that's the course for a school with few low income students, I can't imagine the stats for those with no parent home during the day, not able to monitor, help, etc.? I fear "lost kids, lost year." 
Even with a parent checking, it's not the same. I had 2 kids in HS same time. 1 would have done bare minimum with me checking on him. The other would've been fine and done all work. I vote masks and school. American Academy of Pediatrics is advocating opening schools.


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## jackio

My district has just opened special ed summer school.  These are kids who are normally in 12:1:1 or 8:1:1 classes so they are able to socially distance.  They swapped out the tables for individual desks.  However they went with the buses as usual and encourage (not mandate) the wearing of masks.  Temps are taken for all children before entering the building (I question the value of this since many children are asymptomatic but it eases the parents' minds).  All staff are wearing masks, and some are wearing shields also. The staff members must answer the CDC survey when they arrive for work.  A 4th question has been added to see if any of the staff members recently traveled to any of the states on NY's quarantine list.  I believe that the district will use the outcome of this session to determine how we will open in September.  We are still waiting for guidance from the governor, but I think we will be opening without too many modifications.


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## Cornell

Thanks @"Roger" for starting this.  

I have a lot of random / assorted thoughts on this....

IL is requiring masks of students at all levels, even at the preschool level.  I know TUG is a very pro-mask group.  Fine.  But there are a lot of valid concerns about the role of  masks in schools.  Our phase 4 rules & regs here in IL will make "normal" high school impossible.  So our teens will not be going back to school per usual.  I am pretty upset about it.  To the point where I have considered having my daughter live with one of her aunts in another state to finish high school in a normal environment.  But increasingly, that is going to be hard to find no matter where you live.  I have a sister in Des Moines.  DM public schools released their plan this week - kids will be in school ONE day per week.  

My daughter, who will be in 12th grade, has lots of peers scrambling to re-arrange their schedules so that they can graduate after Semester 1 this year b/c the whole school situation is so awful. I frankly don't blame these kids & if my daughter could  pull it* off I'd encourage her to do the same.  

We should find out our school district's plan this week.  I really could give a *$% at this point b/c I know I won't like it.  

There was an article in the WSJ earlier this week that showed teens are the most affected cohort emotionally / mentally by what has happened these past few months.  

*One of the many sucker-punches that my daughter has gotten since March is that her local US high school is not giving her ANY credit for her Semester 2 course work this past year b/c she left her Swiss exchange high school mid-semester.  So she is now behind on credits through no fault of her own.  To make up for these credits she is taking two online classes (where you work at your own pace). She is learning nothing in these classes.  They are merely to "check a box" with the registrar to indicate a certain number of credits.  A complete waste of time for all involved.  

We are just of the mindset that we need to gut through this year (which is a long time for a teen) and focus on getting done w/HS and moving on.  

Thanks for reading my rant. 

(Oh -- I cannot imagine how difficult it will be if you are a working parent of elementary aged kids the won't be in school 5x a week.  A whole different set of challenges).


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## Cornell

One last  comment -- kids who are living in disadvantaged situations are going to be the MOST hurt by a lack of full reopening of schools.  Given the state of society right now, I believe giving our young people a good education, meals at school if needed, structure, mentoring, guidance etc, is possibly one of the best things we can do as a society to try to make our world a better place.


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## Ken555

One of my friends is a teacher at a well regarded public high school (he's one of those individuals who went to law school, didn't like practicing law, and loves teaching). He's on the committee for his school to determine how to reopen safely, and from what he's said it's extremely difficult to make any decisions. The news out of northern California about those 40 principals (https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/More-than-40-Bay-Area-school-principals-in-15381335.php) makes it worse. 

I sympathize with every parent (and child) about this issue, as the impact of a poorer education will be lasting. Considering many who attend public school are already suffering with subpar education, this is a double whammy that should have everyone concerned. We need well educated citizens and residents for many reasons.


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## bbodb1

Ken555 said:


> One of my friends is a teacher at a well regarded public high school (he's one of those individuals who went to law school, didn't like practicing law, and loves teaching). He's on the committee for his school to determine how to reopen safely, and from what he's said it's extremely difficult to make any decisions. The news out of northern California about those 40 principals (https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/More-than-40-Bay-Area-school-principals-in-15381335.php) makes it worse.
> 
> I sympathize with every parent (and child) about this issue, as the impact of a poorer education will be lasting. Considering many who attend public school are already suffering with subpar education, this is a double whammy that should have everyone concerned. *We need well educated citizens and residents for many reasons*.



You and I see many things differently, @Ken555 but I absolutely agree with you on this.


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## Ken555

bbodb1 said:


> You and I see many things differently, @Ken555 but I absolutely agree with you on this.



Common ground is always good to discover. I'm sure we agree on many issues. Contentious TUG posts are naturally isolated to extreme situations with strong opinions.


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## Cornell

"...*the AAP strongly advocates that all policy considerations for the coming school year should start with a goal of having students physically present in school. *The importance of in-person learning is well-documented, and there is already evidence of the negative impacts on children because of school closures in the spring of 2020. Lengthy time away from school and associated interruption of supportive services often results in social isolation, making it difficult for schools to identify and address important learning deficits as well as child and adolescent physical or sexual abuse, substance use, depression, and suicidal ideation. This, in turn, places children and adolescents at considerable risk of morbidity and, in some cases, mortality. Beyond the educational impact and social impact of school closures, there has been substantial impact on food security and physical activity for children and families."



			https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/clinical-guidance/covid-19-planning-considerations-return-to-in-person-education-in-schools/


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## isisdave

What about teachers and other staff? In particular, those at risk, over 60 etc.? SIL retired at 65 four years ago and has been subbing at least one day a week since then. But not this year. And she says that quite a few other subs -- the ones who can actually teach -- are similarly retired teachers.

It's been a long time, but I seem to recall that a lot of bus drivers were 55+ retirees from the military or fire department or such.

If classes are half size, will twice as many teachers be needed?

Has anyone checked to see if there'll be enough staff?


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## Ken555

isisdave said:


> What about teachers and other staff? In particular, those at risk, over 60 etc.? SIL retired at 65 four years ago and has been subbing at least one day a week since then. But not this year. And she says that quite a few other subs -- the ones who can actually teach -- are similarly retired teachers.
> 
> It's been a long time, but I seem to recall that a lot of bus drivers were 55+ retirees from the military or fire department or such.
> 
> If classes are half size, will twice as many teachers be needed?
> 
> Has anyone checked to see if there'll be enough staff?



The safety of teachers and staff is absolutely one of the issues those involved are considering.


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## DannyTS

Who cannot work remotely, at least not all the time? Who has been going to work?

Doctors? check
Nurses? check
Delivery? check
Police? check
Walmart workers? check
Costco workers? check
Restaurant staff? check
Hair dressers?  check
Construction workers? check
Many others? check

Teachers? NO, there is a safety issue, maybe in the fall, maybe in 2021 or 2022 if there is a vaccine.

Personal experience, I am a bit upset about this. Our gardener's daughter has been helping him since April with cutting grass, trimming etc. He told me the first day they came together: "she is a teacher" and his face expression meant: she has a lot of free time now so she can do this on the side. Or at least this is how I interpreted it.

Our part time help with the kids (in normal times) works in a school (administration). Her school is supposed to go back full time in the fall. The teachers were told to let the school know if there is a medical condition that would prevent them from returning to school. Do you know how many teachers claimed they had a medical condition? You guessed it right, 100%. Young and old, slim and not so slim, all of them. What are the odds?


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## bogey21

My Daughter's 3 kids all attend a relatively small Christian School in a city of about 125,000.  She tells me the school has made a lot of changes to make things safer but are contemplating all classes being taught on campus...

George


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## missyrcrews

DannyTS said:


> Who cannot work remotely, at least not all the time? Who has been going to work?
> 
> Doctors? check
> Nurses? check
> Delivery? check
> Police? check
> Walmart workers? check
> Costco workers? check
> Restaurant staff? check
> Hair dressers?  check
> Construction workers? check
> Many others? check
> 
> Teachers? NO, there is a safety issue, maybe in the fall, maybe in 2021 or 2022 if there is a vaccine.
> 
> Personal experience, I am a bit upset about this. Our gardener's daughter has been helping him since April with cutting grass, trimming etc. He told me the first day they came together: "she is a teacher" and his face expression meant: she has a lot of free time now so she can do this on the side. Or at least this is how I interpreted it.
> 
> Our part time help with the kids (in normal times) works in a school (administration). Her school is supposed to go back full time in the fall. The teachers were told to let the school know if there is a medical condition that would prevent them from returning to school. Do you know how many teachers claimed they had a medical condition? You guessed it right, 100%. Young and old, slim and not so slim, all of them. What are the odds?


I was expected to be available during normal school hours to my students.  I was available far more than that...they'd often still be up when I got home from my Target job (which I work outside of school hours even during non-Covid times) and so we'd work together at 10:30pm.  I'll teach whenever they will listen!  I know that there are teachers who are anxious about going back.  I've been out in it every day because of Target, so it's not a big deal for me, as long as common sense prevails.  But to each his/her own.


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## Cornell

Public school teachers have their interests well-represented by their powerful unions. 

And.... workers in grocery stores and big box retailers were working through this whole pandemic (even before masks became a “thing”) and there weren’t mass outbreaks among them.


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## MabelP

Missy Crew,
Thank you for all you do for students...you are one of the heroes.
I am the mother of a fifth grade teacher who works at a pub in the evenings. I personally taught for 37 years. We both feel that students need to be in school five days a week. We worry especially about the Special Ed kids and lower  socioeconomic children. My son teaches in Silicon Valley where computers are readily available. The parents were very cooperative and proactive with distance learning. The majority of them were working from home, and could monitor and help them with their studies. BUT, when June rolled around, they were very tired of teaching their children. Most importantly, besides the academics, these kids were missing out on social emotional skills. Let the kids be kids and listen to the pediatricians.


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## Luanne

Cornell said:


> Public school teachers have their interests well-represented by their powerful unions.


I guess that's why they get paid next to nothing for the job they do.


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## DannyTS

Luanne said:


> I guess that's why they get paid next to nothing for the job they do.


Teachers are generally underpaid and this is very sad. Our society does not have the right priorities at all.

But teachers also have powerful unions. The two statements are not necessarily contradictory. Maybe they just don't  use their strength to the best interest of their members.


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## Cornell

Luanne said:


> I guess that's why they get paid next to nothing for the job they do.


I disagree. Starting salaries are low for public school teachers but those with experience make a very nice living especially when you factor in their compensation package.... benefits and pensions that are unheard of in the private sector.


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## Luanne

Cornell said:


> I disagree. Starting salaries are low for public school teachers but those with experience make a very nice living especially when you factor in their compensation package.... benefits and pensions that are unheard of in the private sector.


Feel free to disagree but I feel all teachers are underpaid.  I'm sure my sister who taught 4th grade would argue with you about the benefits and pension.


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## MabelP

Unfortunately, long distance learning expectations were different from district to district and schools within districts. My son’s school had the teachers doing Zoom class meetings each morning, plus live lessons in Reader‘s Workshop, Writer‘s Workshop and Math. I watched my grandson five days a week as my son worked full days. As I stated previously, I worry about the socioeconomic disparities in distant learning.


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## Cornell

@MabelP -- Big time.  I agree. I think it will just create bigger disparities if we keep schools closed and that makes me sad.  Plus schools are a place where there are mandated reporters, etc.  Kids can easily be forgotten or overlooked if they are not at school and bad stuff is happening at home.


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## SteelerGal

Being a Special Needs Mom in CA, it’s imperative my 2 go back In person in the fall.  And I am thankful other parents in our SD agreed.  In July, we expect to find out if elementary will be FT in person. A virtual option will also be available for families.  Also masks will most likely not be required at elementary schools.  I do believe our SD is going w/ full opening because parents were quite vocal.  Plus it was understood, many would leave to local private schools which are opening in person. 
As fortunate as we are, others are not. I am part of group who is tracking how schools are opening in SoCal. We just learned some of the poorer SD are going full virtual. Some of the larger, LA and Long Beach, are choosing hybrid w/ 2-3 days max on elementary campus. Many are not segmenting special needs children or even those w/ IEPs.  It’s craziness to say the least.


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## jackio

Children need to go back to school.  Parents need to go back to work.  The key is to do it as safely as possible. Our governor still has not released the guidelines for reopening, so my district cannot begin to make a plan yet.


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## bogey21

Luanne said:


> Feel free to disagree but I feel all teachers are underpaid.  I'm sure my sister who taught 4th grade would argue with you about the benefits and pension.


Underpaid and Next to Nothing are not the same thing...

George


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## Luanne

bogey21 said:


> Underpaid and Next to Nothing are not the same thing...
> 
> George


In some cases they are.

P.S. I said "next to nothing *for the job they do*".


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## jehb2

More Than 40 School Principals Told to Quarantine After COVID-19 Exposure
					

More than 40 school principals in the South Bay have been told to quarantine after being exposed to COVID-19.




					www.nbcbayarea.com
				




More than 40 school principals in the South Bay were told to quarantine after being exposed to COVID-19 two weeks ago.

The exposure happened at an in-person meeting called by the Santa Clara Unified School District. An attendee who didn't have any symptoms at the meeting testing positive for the virus just days later.

Now many are asking why the district would have even called an in-person meeting at all.

“I'm mad, I’m disappointed, I’m concerned," said parent Bonnie Lieberman.

She has mixed emotions after dozens of school principals were exposed to COVID-19 at a face-to-face school district leadership meeting two weeks ago.

"There were over forty people in the room,” said Lieberman. “It doesn’t give me or any other parents much confidence that the district can make appropriate decisions about safety.”

Last week, the district superintendent confirmed the exposure during an online meeting with the school board, but says the district didn’t do anything wrong.


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## jehb2

121 University of Washington students test positive for Covid-19 | CNN
					

More than a hundred students at University of Washington fraternity houses in Seattle have tested positive for Covid-19, the university said Sunday.




					www.cnn.com


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## jehb2

[moved]


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## Glynda

My niece has a son who is medically fragile and a daughter who is special needs, but lower risk medically. She received, and gave, permission for these to be copied and shared. I edited out my niece’s name and wrestled with whether to edit what might be an offensive word or two, but did not. If a moderator chooses to, that’s OK.

My niece:

“Below is from a doctor at Duke. She works on the Covid unit. She wrote this as a way to express her feelings about schools opening based on the experience she has had first hand with Covid and from the perspective of a parent with two young children. She makes several points that people often don’t mention, but none more striking to me than the point on morbidity vs mortality. Her name has been erased to  protect her privacy.”


 ——————-

7/2: SCHOOL.  There has been much discussion and debate about what school will look like next year. Today, Wake county announced that they will have kids in a rotation of 1 week in person/ 2 weeks remote. I expect Chapel hill will shortly follow suit,

 Or have some similar hybrid plan. I  keep getting asked this question repeatedly from friends — “well, you are a  COVID Doctor. What do YOU think about sending your kids back to school”.   My answer is my own, deeply personal, and not reflective of my employer. And I recognize and appreciate that many of my colleagues in the same position as me have different views. BUT. Since so many keep asking me, here is my answer, as both a parent and a frontline covid doctor. Do with it as you choose:

My family is electing to remote school next year. The reasons for this are multi-factorial:

 -this disease scares the shit out of me.  After 4 months caring for covid patients, we certainly know a lot more. But a lot of it isn’t reassuring.  Covid is now known to cause lung, heart, kidney, brain, and clotting system complications.  And that’s just what we know about the immediate effects. We have no idea — NONE — what the longer term effects might be. I am not willling to risk the health and vitality of my kids to find out what those long term side effects might be

 -morbidity vs  mortality. I’ve talked about this in prior posts. Yes, very few  children actually die of covid. BUT many young people still get very very sick. Intubated. Put on ecmo. Pediatric multisystem inflammatory  syndrome. Kawasaki-like illness with coronary artery aneurysms. These are serious issues with long term effects.  Just because covid doesnt  kill you; it doesn’t mean you will ever be quite the same either.

-the teachers and staff. My god, how can we ask this of them?  After cautiously sheltering in place for months, we are now asking them to basically jump into the lions den and interact with hundreds of children with thousands of household contacts. The more exposure you have, the  more risk you have.  Trust me, we WILL see teachers and bus drivers and cafeteria workers and other staff — and their family members— who get  sick and die. 

 -I want to continue having my parents involved in my kids life. If we strictly isolate, I feel safe doing so. But If the kids go back to school and interact with dozens of kids from dozens of homes, the risk to my parents increases exponentially.  

 -I do strongly believe that since we CAN keep our kids home without significant detrimental effects, we SHOULD. There are so, so many people in our community whose lives and careers and finances will be  devastated by having to do remote learning.  We will not be.  We can do so for a year without undue harm to my kids or our careers or our finances.  I choose to keep my kids home so that families who absolutely  cannot do so have just a little bit more safety at school.

I  acknowledge that we are EXTREMELY privileged for me to only work part-time clinically and am able to do my non-clinical work remotely and help home school.  And my parents live here and are willing and fully  engaged to help us home school during the weeks I absolutely have to be in the hospital.

This seems like a goddamn nightmare for any family with a single parent, two working parents who cannot work from home, families with out extended family support, and families with ESL,  kids with IEPs, exceptional children, etc etc.

I have zero answers as to how to make it better. Zero. I don’t want kids falling behind disproportionally because their parents cannot afford to home school or hire tutors. I also don’t want to see kids sick from covid and dead teachers.

Any plan than is less than 100% not in-person seems doomed to only worsen and exacerbate the achievement gap between the haves/have nots.

But — Any plan that involves more in person time also puts kids and teachers more at risk. And these teachers quite frankly do not get paid enough to risk their and their families lives.

I have no answer. It is impossible.


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## TravelTime

Nationwide, the average teacher salary was $60,477 during the 2017-18 school year, according to the National Education Association, the national teachers union. So if two teachers are married, their average HH income would be approx $120K per year.

The median household income in America reached $61,937 in 2018, according to U.S. Census data.

Teachers earn about double the median annual household income in the US. 

So how is this underpaid?


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## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> Nationwide, the average teacher salary was $60,477 during the 2017-18 school year, according to the National Education Association, the national teachers union. So if two teachers are married, their average HH income would be approx $120K per year.
> 
> The median household income in America reached $61,937 in 2018, according to U.S. Census data.
> 
> Teachers earn about double the median annual household income in the US.
> 
> So how is this underpaid?


And that doesn't account for their total compensation package, which I maintain is far better than the typical employee in the private sector.


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## TravelTime

Interesting article on the myth that teachers are underpaid:









						The Truth about Teacher Pay
					

One of the most common beliefs about American education is that teaching is an underpaid profession. Think tanks purport to calculate the "teacher pay gap." The media run stories about teachers taking second and third jobs to pay the bills. Politicia...




					www.nationalaffairs.com


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## amycurl

Teachers have very powerful unions.....in some large, urban areas. But there are no teachers' unions anywhere in the south. That's a very broad statement.

From my understanding, the biggest hurdle is transportation, and how to do it equitably. There are no good options there.

The pandemic has highlighted and amplified every inequity that already existed in our system, including public education.


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## cman

TravelTime said:


> Nationwide, the average teacher salary was $60,477 during the 2017-18 school year, according to the National Education Association, the national teachers union. So if two teachers are married, their average HH income would be approx $120K per year.
> 
> The median household income in America reached $61,937 in 2018, according to U.S. Census data.
> 
> Teachers earn about double the median annual household income in the US.
> 
> So how is this underpaid?


It's dependent on where they live. Keep in mind that they all do the same job, but in several parts of the country, based on their educational level, they are grossly underpaid. 


			Teacher Pay by State 2022


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## TravelTime

cman said:


> It's dependent on where they live. In places like Texas, Oklahoma and West Virginia, it's a different story. Those are right to work states, the unions are not powerful, and they can't even negotiate pay. I've never met a teacher that was in it for the money.



Yes there are regional differences. This just reflects the average nationwide. However, keep in mind that in lower cost states, median HH income is also lower. The interesting thing about the article I posted is that they found when teachers leave the teaching profession for the private sector, they do not earn more money on average. This suggests that they are fairly paid for their qualifications. Otherwise, they would, on average, be getting higher pay elsewhere.


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## Luanne

TravelTime said:


> Interesting article on the myth that teachers are underpaid:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Truth about Teacher Pay
> 
> 
> One of the most common beliefs about American education is that teaching is an underpaid profession. Think tanks purport to calculate the "teacher pay gap." The media run stories about teachers taking second and third jobs to pay the bills. Politicia...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalaffairs.com


And I could find articles disputing this.  I can't post any right now as I'm on a tablet.

My sister taught both in California and then Missouri.  I don't think she ever felt like she was overpaid.  And I'm still wondering about this wonderful compensation package she supposedly received according to Cornell.


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## Cornell

amycurl said:


> Teachers have very powerful unions.....in some large, urban areas. But there are no teachers' unions anywhere in the south. That's a very broad statement.
> 
> From my understanding, the biggest hurdle is transportation, and how to do it equitably. There are no good options there.
> 
> The pandemic has highlighted and amplified every inequity that already existed in our system, including public education.


Was not aware of that  (about the unions) - thank you for setting me straight on that.


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## TravelTime

cman said:


> It's dependent on where they live. Keep in mind that they all do the same job, but in several parts of the country, based on their educational level, they are grossly underpaid.
> 
> 
> Teacher Pay by State 2022



The gap varies depending on how the data is measured. This Money magazine study found an overall 11% teacher pay gap compared to average weekly salary for similarly educated college graduates. (The pay gap takes benefits into account.)









						This Chart Shows How Much Money College Grads Are Giving Up by Working as Teachers
					

See the pay penalty in every state.




					money.com
				




IMHO, an 11% pay gap, on average, is not big enough to say that teachers as a profession are underpaid.


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## TravelTime

Luanne said:


> And I could find articles disputing this.  I can't post any right now as I'm on a tablet.
> 
> My sister taught both in California and then Missouri.  I don't think she ever felt like she was overpaid.  And I'm still wondering about this wonderful compensation package she supposedly received according to Cornell.



No one is saying teachers are overpaid. We are discussing whether teachers are fairly paid compared to other workers in the USA.

The Money magazine study I posted (which leans liberal and thus, supports the bias that teachers are underpaid), says that teachers’ benefit packages are  7% higher, on average, than other college educated workers.

From googling this topic, I am seeing a lot of data manipulation depending on what bias the source has and the point they want to make. The center left wants to increase teacher salaries so they say teachers are significantly underpaid. The center right pulls data that says it is a myth that teachers are underpaid. They are probably both wrong.

I am guessing the reality is that teacher salaries are somewhat lower on average than similarly college educated professionals and the same or higher than the average US worker salary. In terms of median household income, I suspect that teachers tend to live with another college educated professional so they probably do earn double or more than the average median household income.

IMO, teaching is a calling. My in-laws were both teachers. They owned their own home, raised two successful kids, traveled a lot, and retired with a nice pension.

I have a close friend who used to be a teacher in Hawaii. She left the profession to make more money. Initially she did not make much more actually. But then after about 10 years in the private sector, she got on the VP track in large corporations and  she eventually made a boatload more money than a teacher. But most teachers who leave teaching will not be on that track.


----------



## Glynda

I am assuming by the posts having followed mine that a couple of you jumped on the last sentence of the Duke COVID doctor’s response, thus your argument seems to be that teachers *are* paid enough to risk their and their families lives. 

As a mother and grandmother, I found these most compelling, “I am not willling to risk the health and vitality of my kids to find out what those long term side effects might be” and “Just because covid doesnt kill you; it doesn’t mean you will ever be quite the same either.*“ *


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## TravelTime

Glynda said:


> I am assuming by the posts having followed mine that a couple of you jumped on the last sentence of the Duke COVID doctor’s response, thus your argument seems to be that teachers *are* paid enough to risk their and their families lives.
> 
> As a mother and grandmother, I found these most compelling, “I am not willling to risk the health and vitality of my kids to find out what those long term side effects might be” and “Just because covid doesnt kill you; it doesn’t mean you will ever be quite the same either.*“ *



I am not sure what the point is here because I missed the posts you are referring to. Teachers are not paid to risk their lives. Most people are not in high risk jobs and are not paid to risk their lives. Anyone who works with the public now or who is an essential worker is in the unfortunate position of being more at risk of catching covid but their salaries are not based on Covid. This is hopefully a once in a lifetime situation and we will return to working in safer conditions soon.


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## bbodb1

I can tell you there are 2 teacher unions in Arkansas- one is the AEA (NEA) and the other is ASTA.  Despite the presence of two unions, neither is very strong and neither has many members.


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## mentalbreak

Our school released their fall plans with contingencies for everything from 100% virtual to hybrid to 100% in person with “new protocols”.

I am cautiously optimistic. The plans include a shift from 8 class periods in a semester to 4 classes per quarter.  With actual teaching and accountability for classroom (real or virtual) attendance across all models.

@Glynda thank you for posting your niece’s perspective.  I appreciate the insights.  And I agree - it is an impossible situation. The best we can do is try to do what works for our own circumstances.


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## TravelTime

I think the worst paid job in America is social worker. Social workers generally need a master’s degree and they get paid less than teachers with a bachelors degree. The conditions they work in are awful. There are some exceptions to this of course but it is rare. This is partly why mental health care in America is in the bad situation it is.


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## mentalbreak

@Cornell have you looked into any post-secondary credit opportunities for college credit also satisfying high school requirements?

I was peripherally researching just on the contingency that if the self-instruction model from the end of last year would continue, my student may as well earn basic college credits at the same time and perhaps receive better instruction from the community college.


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## Cornell

mentalbreak said:


> @Cornell have you looked into any post-secondary credit opportunities for college credit also satisfying high school requirements?
> 
> I was peripherally researching just on the contingency that if the self-instruction model from the end of last year would continue, my student may as well earn basic college credits at the same time and perhaps receive better instruction from the community college.


I actually have and she’s enrolled in 2 dual credit classes next year. 

BTW love your avatar. I have a set of Raygun coasters that I love . And one is your avatar.


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## mentalbreak

Cornell said:


> I actually have and she’s enrolled in 2 dual credit classes next year.
> 
> BTW love your avatar. I have a set of Raygun coasters that I love . And one is your avatar.


So sorry your daughter is caught in the imperfect storm of losing out on studying abroad, credits for graduation, and a normal senior year.  My boys are class of 2022 and 2023. I’m hoping there is some cadence of normalcy by then.  I was seriously considering how I could create a meaningful gap year for them (2020-21) if school was going to continue the way it was since March.

And Raygun is so fun! We have a few of their designs and always get comments.


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## Ken555

Saw this earlier today... 



> This is circulating... And oh, so true!
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> For those of you saying "If essential workers can work, teachers can work, and our kids need to be in school!" I get where you're coming from.  I want you to imagine the first day of school.
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> Kids will get on the bus.  They will be packed together, because my district (like many) has ruled that it is too expensive and time-consuming to do staggered bussing.  They will be excited to see their friends, and they will talk, share items, and do all the things they missed doing on the bus, and this will be great for their emotional health.  Eventually some of them will take off their masks, because one or two kids didn't come with one to begin with, and who's scared of this thing anyway?
> And so, before 10am, you have had your first super-spreader event in the district.  No, the kids may not all get sick, but a few of them will.  A few of those will die, as we've seen in news reports.   They probably won't be your child, so this does not matter to you.  It is a sacrifice you were prepared to make.
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> Kids will enter school.  If this is done in a staggered manner, we will lose significant instructional time.  Kids will sit at their desks, and if they are in a Title I school where most parents can not afford to stay home and support kids during Digital Learning, we will have at least 80% of the population in the classroom.  A classroom with truly socially distanced desks can seat about 8 people.  Realistically, we will have 25-30 children packed together.  Some of them will play with their masks or, if their parents are anti-mask, they will refuse to have those masks on.
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> A teacher will now have to teach in a classroom where they are no longer allowed to have group activities, so vital for young learners, unless they are in a contactless digital format. Hopefully the school will have enough computers for those students without their own devices.  Hopefully the teacher will be able to maneuver quickly enough to stop students from Snapchatting their friends, or logging on to any number of non-educational websites, so that they can do their lesson.
> A teacher will also have to choose between instructing effectively and protecting themselves and the people they may care for at home.  Proximity is key to classroom management.  Social distancing is not compatible with it.  Students who do not wear masks may see reduced teacher attention, because again, teachers are being asked to choose between their health and their effectiveness.
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> Time to change classes.  If students are the ones transitioning, instead of a teacher rotating between classrooms, we lose valuable instructional time to sanitizing.  Do we have enough wipes and sprays to sanitize four or more times a day?  Hopefully you donated some, because now a teacher may have to choose between their finances and *everyone's* health.
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> Novel study time.  Do we have enough books for 100+ middle schoolers?  Don't make me laugh.  Every student will need to sanitize before and after touching a book.  You won't pay for ebooks and you won't pay for physical books, but we hope you will donate hand sanitizer.
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> Now, let's talk about how things go after Day 1:
> A child tests positive for COVID-19.  The parents fear retaliation from peers and do not report it to the school; they just keep their child at home and hope it blows over.
> A child is sick with fever.  A parent gives them Tylenol and sends them to school.
> A child who interacted with the child whose parents did not report tests positive and parents report this.  Students and teachers that interacted with the child have to quarantine for 14 days.  That's 14 days of the Digital Learning we were trying to avoid in the first place.  In middle school, if a teacher tests positive, that will mean 100+ kids are staying home with parents, and all of their teachers, too.  This will happen again and again.  All of the promised consistency, routine, structure, everything you wanted for your children, is gone, and you are not prepared to help them with DL.
> A child in a community with high COVID-19 exposure becomes sick with MIS-C.  More children contract MIS-C.  This was a sacrifice you did not realize you were making, but it does not affect your child, so it does not concern you.
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> Now for the community spread.
> The virus will find many opportunities to flourish in a school, no matter how carefully the teachers and staff strive to curb it.  The resources simply are not being given to them.  Children will spread the virus to parents, siblings, grandparents (especially in multigenerational homes), and inevitably, people who shop and work outside of their homes.  The spike we see now, that began in June, will pale in comparison to what follows.
> 
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> And some teachers, nurses, custodians, and principals will die.  But that's a footnote to you; what about the learning outcomes?  The academic gains?
> Well?  What will those be?


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## bbodb1

This subject is about to get a lot of attention. 
As an example, see the current situation in Los Angeles:









						Teachers union calls for LAUSD campuses to remain closed when school starts
					

Leaders for the union representing LAUSD teachers are calling for campuses to remain closed when the new school year begins next month.




					abc7.com


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## Cornell

Chicago Teachers Union says most members don’t want to go back to school without clear safety precautions
					

The CTU conducted a survey that offers a glimpse into teachers’ anxiety as they’re faced with the prospect of returning to school.




					chicago.suntimes.com
				




Same here. 40 percent of Chicago teachers don’t want to return to classrooms. 

Our elementary schools are all rolling out their plans. Most parents seems fairly satisfied with the options. None of the high schools have announced yet. Due to the large population at these schools they are struggling to work with the regulations.


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## isisdave

My gut feeling is that back-to-physical-school is going to make Fourth-of-July-on-the-beach look mild.  I don't know that the kids are going to spread it or be symptomatic, but the adults will.

In the countries that have successfully sent kids back, the infection rate was reduced to almost nothing first, and tracing was put in place.  In many, if not most places, we're not in that position yet.

I think there will be a big shortage of teachers and staff.  Many are in an age or health category that will keep them home. The supply of substitutes will be smaller for the same reason, plus the fact that a LOT of them are retired teachers who teach because they like to; SIL retired a few years ago and she says "I'd have to be crazy to do that."

As I said, this isn't anything more than a guess based on what's happened so far. I don't want to be right. I agree that kids need to be in school for social and emotional reasons, and so that their parents can go to their jobs.  I sure hope I'm not right. But so far, pretty much nothing has gone better than expected.


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## Ken555

bbodb1 said:


> This subject is about to get a lot of attention.
> As an example, see the current situation in Los Angeles:
> 
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> Teachers union calls for LAUSD campuses to remain closed when school starts
> 
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> Leaders for the union representing LAUSD teachers are calling for campuses to remain closed when the new school year begins next month.
> 
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> 
> abc7.com



Yup. It's been already discussed at length on Facebook and elsewhere by others I know in LA, including a friend who is a teacher at a local high school and on the school's committee tasked with making their reopening plans. It's not easy for anyone.


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## DannyTS

isisdave said:


> My gut feeling is that back-to-physical-school is going to make Fourth-of-July-on-the-beach look mild.  I don't know that the kids are going to spread it or be symptomatic, but the adults will.
> 
> In the countries that have successfully sent kids back, the infection rate was reduced to almost nothing first, and tracing was put in place.  In many, if not most places, we're not in that position yet.


Both statements need revision IMO. Kids do not generally transmit the virus and the adults can be careful like all the other professions that have to work.
Most countries that reopened did it at a time when the new number of cases was the same or *higher* than the day they  closed. But most importantly, the number of cases continued to go down after opening which proves that schools are not a major factor in transmission.


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## CPNY

I don’t know how you guys feel but this whole COVID thing is starting to bug me just a tad!


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## Ken555

CPNY said:


> I don’t know how you guys feel but this whole COVID thing is starting to bug me just a tad!



It bothered me "a tad" back in Feb. Now it's just absurd, top to bottom (at least in the US).


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## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> It bothered me "a tad" back in Feb. Now it's just absurd, top to bottom (at least in the US).


Yeh, I hear ya, unfortunately I’m one of those “long haulers”. 5 months later and I still have days of “stuff”. I wish the thing was poof gone!


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## DannyTS

CPNY said:


> Yeh, I hear ya, unfortunately I’m one of those “long haulers”. 5 months later and I still have days of “stuff”. I wish the thing was poof gone!


I am not comparing but I had flues in the past with symptoms that lingered for a very long time. I did not even know if it was the same one or I started another one. Bronchitis usually shows symptoms for 3 months or longer. We were sick most of the winter when both my kids were together in daycare for the first time. Some days were better than others but I do not think we had two weeks back to back when we were perfectly fine. A long Canadian winter I should add.


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## CPNY

DannyTS said:


> I am not comparing but I had flues in the past with symptoms that lingered for a very long time. I did not even know if it was the same one or I started another one. Bronchitis usually shows symptoms for 3 months or longer. We were sick most of the winter when both my kids were together in daycare for the first time. Some days were better than others but I do not think we had two weeks back to back when we were perfectly fine. A long Canadian winter I should add.


Shortness of breath and odd chest pains I’ve never felt before COVID. Been reaching for air all day today. It comes and goes. There were times in Florida i was fine and then nights I nearly fell off the couch trying to get a breath. All last week I had the chest pains which were gone for over a month. I’ve taken 3 covid tests and all negative thankfully. I may get another this week just to be certain. But that’s just it, the symptoms in many people are lingering for months. From what I’ve been reading in a Facebook group I’m in, I’m actually not bad at all.....some people are banged up pretty badly 5 months in. They still get fevers, yikes.


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## bluehende

CPNY said:


> Shortness of breath and odd chest pains I’ve never felt before COVID. Been reaching for air all day today. It comes and goes. There were times in Florida i was fine and then nights I nearly fell off the couch trying to get a breath. All last week I had the chest pains which were gone for over a month. I’ve taken 3 covid tests and all negative thankfully. I may get another this week just to be certain. But that’s just it, the symptoms in many people are lingering for months. From what I’ve been reading in a Facebook group I’m in, I’m actually not bad at all.....some people are banged up pretty badly 5 months in. They still get fevers, yikes.


In my wide circle of people I know who have had covid 2 of 8 are like you.  One is young and is probably better off.  He exercised regularly and is still unable to exert himself at all.  The other is older and sounds just like you with ups and downs fairly extreme.  Sending good thoughts your way for your health and peace of mind.  I cann't imagine living with this that long.


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## CPNY

bluehende said:


> In my wide circle of people I know who have had covid 2 of 8 are like you.  One is young and is probably better off.  He exercised regularly and is still unable to exert himself at all.  The other is older and sounds just like you with ups and downs fairly extreme.  Sending good thoughts your way for your health and peace of mind.  I cann't imagine living with this that long.


Thank you. It’s amazing how you can be fine for a few days then spend a whole night huffing and puffing.


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## Cornell

As I mentioned above, here in IL the school districts are all rolling out their back to school plans.  Most of the elementary districts have done so. High schools are slower to follow.  

Most districts, too, have conducted surveys with parents to get the feel for what they want.  This is from one of the larger high school districts.  I'm stunned to see that 80% want full in-person learning (survey graphic got cut off, but that's what the blue means).  

From what I can tell, every district is presenting some sort of 100% e-learning from home option for those who want it.  However, once you make your choice for what you want for the upcoming you, your child is "locked in" -- there is no flipping around from option A to option B.


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## Luanne

This is a long, but good read, from a teacher's point of view.

https://mrsteacherlife.wordpress.co...3Pc5gZ0ImR9MV2ywGeMLOj7KkfLGJrpdMJP8LypfNe2wQ


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## TravelTime

Luanne said:


> This is a long, but good read, from a teacher's point of view.
> 
> https://mrsteacherlife.wordpress.co...3Pc5gZ0ImR9MV2ywGeMLOj7KkfLGJrpdMJP8LypfNe2wQ



I read this and it might make sense for younger grades to stay closed. However, it seems teachers of high school grades could easily social distance. I feel that school is an essential service. I am blown away that teachers do not want to return to the classroom and cite safety reasons. IMHO, even pre-Covid, teachers have not done a great job at teaching and Covid is showing how much they do not want to be in the classroom.


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## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> I am blown away that teachers do not want to return to the classroom and cite safety reasons.



Before I respond to this opinion, I want to confirm that this is really what you meant.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Luanne

Ken555 said:


> Before I respond to this opinion, I want to confirm that this is really what you meant.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I am questioning that as well.


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## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> Before I respond to this opinion, I want to confirm that this is really what you meant.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Yes this is what I really meant. I think school is an essential service. If grocery workers can work, why can’t teachers. I can understand elementary school teachers having trouble with social distancing but what about high school students? They do not run up to teachers and blow their noses.


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## Luanne

TravelTime said:


> Yes this is what I really meant. I think school is an essential service. If grocery workers can work, why can’t teachers. I can understand elementary school teachers having trouble with social distancing but what about high school students? They do not run up to teachers and blow their noses.


First of all the concern is for the students as well as the teacher.  Second, did the teacher say they were not going to return to the classroom?

Teaching can be done virtually.  Grocery shopping cannot.  And I'm betting that in BOTH professions there are people who are questioning going to work for safety and health concerns.

Maybe high school students don't run up to teacher and blow their noses, but high school students have been known to exhibit some pretty stupid behaviors.


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## Cornell

Luanne said:


> This is a long, but good read, from a teacher's point of view.
> 
> https://mrsteacherlife.wordpress.co...3Pc5gZ0ImR9MV2ywGeMLOj7KkfLGJrpdMJP8LypfNe2wQ


Completely political post. This author has an axe to grind with Betsy DeVos and POTUS.


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## Luanne

Cornell said:


> Completely political post. This author has an axe to grind with Betsy DeVos and POTUS.


Sorry, I didn't see it as political.  I saw this as a teacher, frustrated by the information coming from the top goes against what this teacher feels is unsafe.


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## Cornell

Right here towards the end....


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## Luanne

Cornell said:


> Right here towards the end....
> 
> View attachment 23517


Yes, I saw that.  Your point?  It doesn't have to be political.  It's a teacher railing against people WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN IN A CLASSROOM making decisions that affect teachers, staff and the students.


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## Cornell

Luanne said:


> Yes, I saw that.  Your point?  It doesn't have to be political.  It's a teacher railing against people WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN IN A CLASSROOM making decisions that affect teachers, staff and the students.


My point - it's political and we are supposed to keep politics off of TUG.


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## Cornell

And.....local school boards are making the bulk of the decisions of how schools are going to roll out this fall -- many members who have never been in a classroom either.


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## Luanne

Cornell said:


> My point - it's political and we are supposed to keep politics off of TUG.


Then please report the post so the moderators can remove it.


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## TravelTime

The teacher’s unions are very political and are left wing.


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## Luanne

TravelTime said:


> The teacher’s unions are very political and are left wing.


All of them?  Even the ones in the conservative states?  That's a pretty broad comment.


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## TravelTime

Teachers know what they are getting into before they become teachers. So why are they surprised when they become teachers that their salaries are lower than other comparable college educated professionals? Part of me thinks that many teachers go into teaching because they think it will be an easy career. Then they are in the classroom and find out how hard it is. The great teachers are passionate about teaching and do not go into teaching for money. These teachers stay in the field until they retire. I have known many great teachers and once they get seniority, the pay is not that bad. Also most teachers marry another college educated professional so their household income is quite high. It is nice that many people can do what they love while someone else pays the bills at home.

BTW my brother is a teacher. My father worked for a community college for 40 years. My in-laws were both teachers. So I am not commenting without any knowledge of teachers.

My father did not make a lot of money but he retired with a pension and other benefits. He was quite happy in retirement. My in laws also retired with a nice pension and were very comfortable in retirement.

My family members were great teachers. They never complained about money.


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## Luanne

TravelTime said:


> Teachers know what they are getting into before they become teachers. So why are they surprised when they become teachers that their salaries are lower than other comparable college educated professionals? Part of me thinks that many teachers go into teaching because they think it will be an easy career. Then they are in the classroom and find out how hard it is. The great teachers are passionate about teaching and do not go into teaching for money. These teachers stay in the field until they retire. I have known many great teachers and once they get seniority, the pay is not that bad. Also most teachers marry another college educated professional so their household income is quite high. It is nice that many people can do what they love while someone else pays the bills at home.


That's pretty disgusting.  I've had many teachers in my family and among my friends.  Easy career?  Do you know that many, if not most, teachers take on extra jobs during the summer due to their low salaries.  Are you aware they need to continue their own education?  I'm so glad you can generalize for the entire profession.  I think I'm done reading your posts.


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## TravelTime

Luanne said:


> That's pretty disgusting.  I've had many teachers in my family and among my friends.  Easy career?  Do you know that many, if not most, teachers take on extra jobs during the summer due to their low salaries.  Are you aware they need to continue their own education?  I'm so glad you can generalize for the entire profession.  I think I'm done reading your posts.



Yes I have many family members in teaching. I added a little more after this post. My family members never had to take on extra jobs to survive. They were passionate about teaching and did quite well on a teaching salary. My brother, who is about 40, is still in teaching and he loves it.


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## TravelTime

Luanne said:


> That's pretty disgusting.  I've had many teachers in my family and among my friends.  Easy career?  Do you know that many, if not most, teachers take on extra jobs during the summer due to their low salaries.  Are you aware they need to continue their own education?  I'm so glad you can generalize for the entire profession.  I think I'm done reading your posts.



Why is what I said disgusting? I think you are over reacting. No need to take comments about teaching so personal. It is well known that education in America is problematic. I have known great teachers and many bad teachers.

If teachers were really underpaid, then teachers would not go into the field and salaries would increase. It is supply and demand.


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## Luanne

TravelTime said:


> Why is what I said disgusting? I think you are over reacting. No need to take comments about teaching so personal. It is well known that education in America is problematic. I have known great teachers and many bad teachers.


Maybe I am overreacting.  What got me was the statement that many of them go into teaching because they think it will be an easy career.

Then the whole, most of them marry another college educated professional so their household income is quite high. It is nice that many people can do what they love while someone else pays the bills at home.   I'll tell that to my sister whose dh owned his own landscaping business.  My sister was the one with the steady income, the one who provided the medical insurance for the company.  Or I'll tell that to my single friends.  Or another friend whose dh is a teacher while she works contract jobs because her industry kind of shut down.  

You tend to generalize and make sweeping statements.  Maybe I'm taking down to far to the individual cases.


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## TravelTime

11 School Districts That Pay Teachers Six Figures
					

Yes, it's true. Teachers who've been on the job for several years can earn six figures in many states.




					www.weareteachers.com


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## TravelTime

Luanne said:


> Maybe I am overreacting.  What got me was the statement that many of them go into teaching because they think it will be an easy career.
> 
> Then the whole, most of them marry another college educated professional so their household income is quite high. It is nice that many people can do what they love while someone else pays the bills at home.   I'll tell that to my sister whose dh owned his own landscaping business.  My sister was the one with the steady income, the one who provided the medical insurance for the company.  Or I'll tell that to my single friends.  Or another friend whose dh is a teacher while she works contract jobs because her industry kind of shut down.
> 
> You tend to generalize and make sweeping statements.  Maybe I'm taking down to far to the individual cases.



Yes on TUG I could be prone to making generalized statements. My statements do not reflect every teacher’s situation. I have known many teachers who are married and do quite well with dual income. My brother, who is a teacher, is divorced and lives on one income and he has three kids. He lives in Miami which is an expensive place to live. I have known many teachers who are not all that well educated and went into teaching because it is an easy degree, relatively speaking. On the other hand, I also know teachers with masters degrees (like my brother and others).This does not mean that there aren't some great teachers or that my comments do not reflect all teachers. I am generalizing about the field. There are always exceptions of course. To be honest, I think the worst field to go into is social work. They earn less than teachers on average with much worse work conditions. Yet they tend to be passionate about their work and would not trade it.


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## DannyTS

I believe that teachers in general deserve higher pay. I do not compare them with the national average, I compare with many other professionals that make a lot more money with seemingly less effort or skills including people that work for various governments. With that being said, it is appalling anyone would call your comment disgusting, you probably deserve an apology.


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## amycurl

And please remember that in many states, teachers don't have a union AT ALL.

And, yes, in many places of the country, supply and demand, and salary--along with cuts to pensions and tenure, and increased accountability demands--HAS led to a teacher shortage. One that will be made worse if many experienced teachers decide to retire rather than face the outcomes of in-school teaching during a pandemic.

This is the reality: we're facing a choice between inequitable health outcomes vs. inequitable educational outcomes. There are NO winners here; it's a Sophie's choice. And it didn't have to be this way, if there had been more pro-active and creative leadership. But, instead, here we all are.

And we should ALL be outraged about the fact that these are our choices.


----------



## jackio

With the exception of healthcare workers, other essential workers' exposure time to one person is limited.  Teachers have a much longer length of exposure in the classroom.  Secondary teachers - 45 minutes 5x/day with a total of approx. 150 students daily.  Elementary teachers, 5 hours a day with 30 students.  I believe the risk is greater for teachers than for other essential workers such as store clerks, who have limited exposure time many more times a day. As a school nurse, I will see between 60 and 80 students a day, most of them for a limited time, but I will have to be close to them (listening to breath sounds, looking in throats, taking temps, dressing wounds).  Thankfully I have adequate PPE and I will put a mask on any student complaining of illness upon entering the clinic.  I am fairly comfortable with the current clinic situation, but we are currently running a program for 90 special ed students.  Talk to me again in September when, if we go to a full opening, I will have a school of 2800 daily.


----------



## TravelTime

Note that people want teachers to be paid more yet taxpayers complain when teachers are paid more.









						The Rise of the Six-Figure Teacher (Published 2005)
					

TEACHING has always been known as a noble calling, but as affluent parents and administrators strive to give their children every possible advantage, it has also become a better-paid profession than in the past, with thousands of public school teachers in the New York suburbs now earning more...




					www.nytimes.com
				




*The Rise of the Six-Figure Teacher*
By Ford Fessenden and Josh Barbanel

TEACHING has always been known as a noble calling, but as affluent parents and administrators strive to give their children every possible advantage, it has also become a better-paid profession than in the past, with thousands of public school teachers in the New York suburbs now earning more than $100,000 a year.
The salaries, among the highest in the country, are paid only to the most experienced teachers, with the most education, in an area where the cost of living is notoriously high. But they are high enough to have raised the ire of some taxpayers, who are making it an issue in budget votes on Tuesday....

Still, critics of the salaries as well as those who consider them necessary agree that the image of teaching as an altruistic, low-paid occupation is no longer the case in the suburbs. A family with two public school teachers can earn enough to put it in the top 4 percent of families on Long Island.....

“There are a lot of people out there who make a lot more than I do," said Patricia Daniello, 53, an East Islip teacher at the pinnacle of her profession -- 30 years' experience, a master's degree with 90 hours of additional credit, and a $116,772 salary. "Do I think my salary is high, based on what I do for children and the amount of education I have in my background? No, I do not."

But some taxpayers in her district disagree. Ms. Daniello is one of more than 100 teachers whose six-figure salaries appear on a list circulated to voters by the East Islip TaxPac, a group campaigning against the district's proposed 8.8-percent tax increase.

“We're trying to convince people that our teachers and teachers' union and administrators do not have the children's interest at heart," said Richard Graham, a member of the anti-tax group. "The people who couldn't do the engineering, and anything else that required some brain power, became teachers, and they now have $100,000 salaries."

The median salary for teachers in Great Neck is $85,007, and 24 percent make $100,000 or more, the fourth-highest percentage on the Island. The highest-paying district in the state is Scarsdale, where the median salary is just under $98,000, and 43 percent of teachers make six-figure salaries....

Our taxpayers are your average Joes who work two jobs to pay the mortgage," Ms. Camacho said. "We have wonderful teachers. But some are not wonderful, and they're making $115,000.".....


----------



## TravelTime

DannyTS said:


> I believe that teachers in general deserve higher pay. I do not compare them with the national average, I compare with many other professionals that make a lot more money with seemingly less effort or skills including people that work for various governments. With that being said, it is appalling anyone would call your comment disgusting, you probably deserve an apology.



I agree teachers should be paid more. I think we should all solicit our counties/states and ask for higher taxes to pay teachers more.


----------



## Cornell

@TravelTime I have a sister who works as a social worker.  Master's Degree.  PAY EXTREMELY LOW.  And she's at the sunset of her career.  I cannot reveal where she works b/c of the extreme sensitivity of her job and the potential of her personal exposure.  But she is dealing with stuff all day, every day that is unspeakable & horrific.  I don't know how she has managed to do this work as long as she has.  

There are certain occupations that are excellent to have in the family.  Social workers are one of them -- she has been a godsend navigating my mother's care.


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> @TravelTime I have a sister who works as a social worker.  Master's Degree.  PAY EXTREMELY LOW.  And she's at the sunset of her career.  I cannot reveal where she works b/c of the extreme sensitivity of her job and the potential of her personal exposure.  But she is dealing with stuff all day, every day that is unspeakable & horrific.  I don't know how she has managed to do this work as long as she has.
> 
> There are certain occupations that are excellent to have in the family.  Social workers are one of them -- she has been a godsend navigating my mother's care.



Thank you for mentioning this. Social workers are the unsung heros. Unlike teaching, social worker salaries do not increase with experience and the benefits are generally terrible. I know many counselors and social workers who are passionate about helping others and could care less about the pay. They knew going in that the pay would be poor yet they persevered anyway. Why can‘t teachers be like social workers?


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> Thank you for mentioning this. Social workers are the unsung heros. I work in the field of counseling so I know about this field. No one cares much about counselors and social workers. I am not a social worker so I am well paid. However, I know many counselors and social workers who are passionate about helping others and could care less about the pay. They knew going in that the pay would be poor yet they persevered anyway. Why can‘t teachers be like social workers?


When I hear about what she deals with I will ask her "how do you handle this all day"?  And she responds that she feels like she is truly helping people.

I feel that way about people who work in the juvenile court system -- how do you keep your sanity seeing this stuff day after day?


----------



## TravelTime

-


----------



## pedro47

Many, many, many years ago a high school teacher make more money than a professional baseball, basketball & football players.  Professional ball players worked part-time jobs to make  end meet. That was in sixties. Now every professional ball players makes six (6) just for signing a contract.. LOL..


----------



## DannyTS

jackio said:


> With the exception of healthcare workers, other essential workers' exposure time to one person is limited.  Teachers have a much longer length of exposure in the classroom.  Secondary teachers - 45 minutes 5x/day with a total of approx. 150 students daily.  Elementary teachers, 5 hours a day with 30 students.  I believe the risk is greater for teachers than for other essential workers such as store clerks, who have limited exposure time many more times a day.


I agree with you in theory, it is possible. But in practice, what do we know from Europe? How many teachers have been sick since the schools reopened? How many were gravely ill, how many died? In the absence of the information, because the Europeans do not seem to be worried at all, I assume that the studies showing that the kids are not a risk for transmission are actually true. CDC has never even recommended for the schools to be closed in the first place if I am not mistaken.
What is troubling to me, the teachers' unions do not seem to be interested in the actual science, they are asking questions that are seeking to manipulate into irrational fear rather than looking for answers that are known already in many cases. The unions have had almost 4 months to look at the science and they did nothing. They've  even had more than enough time to order and coordinate their own studies if they did not trust the scientific research that is already there.


----------



## cman

Here's an interesting article on this subject.








						How to Reopen Schools: What Science and Other Countries Teach Us (Published 2020)
					

The pressure to bring American students back to classrooms is intense, but the calculus is tricky with infections still out of control in many communities.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## cman

Here's the latest CDC guidance for reopening schools.
Considerations for Schools








						Community, Work, and School
					

Actions that communities can take to slow the spread of COVID-19.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## Cornell

And I see #RefuseToReturn is now trending on Twitter....


----------



## TravelTime

cman said:


> Here's the latest CDC guidance for reopening schools.
> Considerations for Schools
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Community, Work, and School
> 
> 
> Actions that communities can take to slow the spread of COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov



It sounds like the CDC is implying that schools should stay shut down.


----------



## cman

TravelTime said:


> It sounds like the CDC is implying that schools should stay shut down.


They changed their guidance a few day ago after someone complained. The previous guidance was even more stringent.


----------



## DannyTS

Oh yes, NYT is right and it is tricky; like all the other times when you want to stall something rather than just do it.


----------



## cman

I'm of the opinion that the reopening of schools should be a local decision, and based on local conditions. I live in Texas, one of the states that's currently trending in the wrong direction. Our state has decided that all schools should open in the fall. I expect they'll be walking back that decision pretty soon.

The reality in Texas is that the recent surge in new C19 cases can be attributed to Houston, Dallas, San Antonio and Austin. You can throw El Paso into the mix but their number are not near those of our other large cities. Given the fact that not only new cases are increasing in these areas, the positivity rate is also increasing. So, fully reopening schools in these areas, may not be the best course of action. However, some of the other 90% of our school districts live in counties that have had very few cases. Some have not recorded a single one since this thing started, and others have recorded less than 10 cases. It makes no sense for the districts with little to no C19 exposure to remain closed, and it makes no sense for a district with uncontrolled outbreaks to reopen. It should be based on local conditions, not mandated from a state or national level.


----------



## cman

DannyTS said:


> Oh yes, NYT is right and it is tricky; like all the other times when you want to stall something rather than just do it.


We're going to do it. Just hope we don't blow it like we did every other aspect of addressing this disaster.


----------



## cman

Cornell said:


> And I see #RefuseToReturn is now trending on Twitter....


I just saw that trend on Twitter. Looks like the teachers are doubling down. In all fairness, they do raise some valid concerns. They seem to be asking "how" they can safely return to the classroom and remain safe? Seems like several of the districts need to step up their communications plans to answer some of their teachers questions and include them in developing their reopening procedures. Schools have been reopened all over the world with good results. I'm confident we can do it here also, but we really need to give the teachers a seat at the table as we plan this out. We can't do it without them.


----------



## bbodb1

Luanne said:


> Maybe high school students don't run up to teacher and blow their noses, but high school students have been known to exhibit _*some*_ pretty stupid behaviors.



Understatement of the morning!


----------



## bbodb1

cman said:


> I just saw that trend on Twitter. Looks like the teachers are doubling down. In all fairness, they do raise some valid concerns. They seem to be asking "how" they can safely return to the classroom and remain safe? *Seems like several of the districts need to step up their communications plans to answer some of their teachers questions and include them in developing their reopening procedures*. Schools have been reopened all over the world with good results. I'm confident we can do it here also, but we really need to give the teachers a seat at the table as we plan this out. We can't do it without them.



With respect to this aspect, many districts took the approach of waiting for their respect state's DOE to issue reopening guidelines and procedures thinking it would be senseless to make local level policies that would likely have to be modified (if not completely revamped) when the DOE issues their guidelines and procedures. 

And when state DOE's finally issued something on this matter, the guidelines and procedures were feckless - at best.  

So now, with most of the summer essentially wasted, local school boards are now in a scramble mode to figure out what to do. 
How many students will be returning to school this fall? 
What does returning to school mean _*for each student specifically?  *_In class attendance?  Distance learning only?  
A few districts have issued cut off dates by which parents must declare 1) is/are their student/s returning this year and 2) in person or remote and 3) with the understanding this decision cannot be changed _*from *_remote _*to *_in-person until the semester break.

What happens to the student whose parent _*does not*_ reply to this deadline for a decision?
Can a school district deny that student admission to the district?  Should a district be able to deny a student admission to a district on this basis (allowing for reasonable exceptions - best example family moves)?

Even if such a policy were allowed, far too many school boards and superintendents only want to _*increase*_ student counts - by any manner available - to obtain more state and federal money.  

While I could continue on, let me point out what our state DOE should mandate but - thus far - has failed to issue *and that is a drastic cut in class sizes to increase social distancing. *

It CAN be done - but it will not be easy.  It will take money - and that money will need to comes from some place - but it can be done.  It will take some innovative thinking - which the education sector claims to be in favor of while concurrently being among the most restrictive environments in which to innovate. 

Here is a specific example (albeit limited to the elementary level).  
While these numbers might vary from state to state, in general the maximum number of students allowed per class is as follows:
Kindergarten: 20 students per class (22 with a 1/2 time aide)
1 - 3: district average 23 students per grade per class average with no more than 25 in any one classroom
     4: district average 25 students per grade per class average with no more than 28 in any one classroom

_*These numbers need to be reduced by at least one-third if social distancing in a classroom is to be achieved. *_

I have yet to see any state DOE mandate that.


----------



## Cornell

bbodb1 said:


> Understatement of the morning!


Speaking of teens, I spent a long weekend with 15  17& 18 year old kids.  These kids have gone to the same summer camp together for the past 8-10 years.  Camp was obviously cancelled this summer.   They organized this trip on their own -- I really had no part of it.  Found the place, brought all the food, organized meals, etc.  

I know it's easy to get down on the "young generations" but if the future is filled with kids like this we are in good hands.  They are resourceful, funny, intelligent, kind & caring.  And just like all of you -- THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR FUTURE.  Their world has been upended too.  None of them has a clue what their senior year of high school will be like.


----------



## bbodb1

Cornell said:


> Speaking of teens, I spent a long weekend with 15  17& 18 year old kids.  These kids have gone to the same summer camp together for the past 8-10 years.  Camp was obviously cancelled this summer.   They organized this trip on their own -- I really had no part of it.  Found the place, brought all the food, organized meals, etc.
> 
> I know it's easy to get down on the "young generations" but if the future is filled with kids like this we are in good hands.  They are resourceful, funny, intelligent, kind & caring.  And just like all of you -- THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR FUTURE.  Their world has been upended too.  None of them has a clue what their senior year of high school will be like.



So you survived the weekend, eh?  Congrats!  

Just about the time you get really down on them in general, a few kids manage to (somehow) remind you the future is not entirely without hope.....


----------



## DannyTS

*Quebec's experiment to open schools amid COVID-19 was successful, education experts say*
Quebec’s closely watched experiment reopening schools amid the COVID-19 pandemic winds down next week as the summer break begins, and the reviews are largely positive. The province was the first in the country to reopen schools after COVID-19 brought regular life to a standstill, with children outside the Montreal region heading back to class in mid-May. The federation representing administrators of the French school system outside Montreal says that about two-thirds of students returned to class once parents got comfortable with the idea. The federation’s president, Nicolas Prevost, said things went relatively smoothly in the schools, though maintaining physical distancing on school buses was a challenge. It will likely remain an issue in the fall — one that school boards across Canada have identified — if physical distancing requirements remain in place. 









						Quebec's experiment to open schools amid COVID-19 was successful, education experts say
					

The federation's president, Nicolas Prevost, said things went relatively smoothly in the schools, though maintaining physical distancing on school buses was a…




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Cornell

bbodb1 said:


> So you survived the weekend, eh?  Congrats!
> 
> Just about the time you get really down on them in general, a few kids manage to (somehow) remind you the future is not entirely without hope.....


I survived and as they say “time heals all wounds”. These are good kids.


----------



## WVBaker

Cornell said:


> I survived and as they say “time heals all wounds”. These are good kids.



"Youth offers the promise of happiness, but life offers the realities of grief."
Nicholas Sparks

Glad to see you made it.


----------



## cman

Here's how South Korea pulled it off. I wish we could be this organized but I doubt we could pull something like this off.
*The pictures say it all: How South Korean schools are reopening*


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/05/26/pictures-say-it-all-how-south-korean-schools-are-reopening/#comments-wrapper


----------



## amycurl

Here are some more specific questions that are being floated locally here via SM. All of these are incredibly valid. Remember, it didn't have to be this way. We all should have been planning for this SINCE MARCH. It shouldn't have to have been a choice between inequitable health outcomes, inequitable educational outcomes, and inequitable financial outcomes.


Questions for School Openings:

• If a teacher tests positive for COVID-19 are they required to quarantine for 2-3 weeks? Is their sick leave covered, paid?

• If that teacher has 5 classes a day with 30 students each, do all 150 of those students need to then stay home and quarantine for 14 days?

• Do all 150 of those students now have to get tested? Who pays for those tests? Are they happening at school? How are the parents being notified? Does everyone in each of those kids' families need to get tested? Who pays for that?

• What if someone who lives in the same house as a teacher tests positive? Does that teacher now need to take 14 days off of work to quarantine? Is that time off covered? Paid?

• Where is the district going to find a substitute teacher who will work in a classroom full of exposed, possibly infected students for substitute pay?

• Substitutes teach in multiple schools. What if they are diagnosed with COVID-19? Do all the kids in each school now have to quarantine and get tested? Who is going to pay for that?

• What if a student in your kid's class tests positive? What if your kid tests positive? Does every other student and teacher they have been around quarantine? Do we all get notified who is infected and when? Or because of HIPAA regulations are parents and teachers just going to get mysterious “may have been in contact” emails all year long?

• What is this stress going to do to our teachers? How does it affect their health and well-being? How does it affect their ability to teach? How does it affect the quality of education they are able to provide? What is it going to do to our kids? What are the long-term effects of consistently being stressed out?

• How will it affect students and faculty when the first teacher in their school dies from this? The first parent of a student who brought it home? The first kid?

• How many more people are going to die, that otherwise would not have if we had stayed home longer?

I think it would behoove all public officials to respond publicly and intentionally to these questions, even if the answer is "I don't know" or "We don't care."


----------



## bogey21

I'm not sure there are good answers to all these questions.  Is the alternative shutting down schools until next year...

George


----------



## WVBaker

cman said:


> Here's how South Korea pulled it off. I wish we could be this organized but I doubt we could pull something like this off.
> *The pictures say it all: How South Korean schools are reopening*
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/05/26/pictures-say-it-all-how-south-korean-schools-are-reopening/#comments-wrapper











						Spike in Coronavirus Cases Causes Hundreds of Schools in South Korea to Close After Reopening
					

South Korea began relaxing social distancing guidelines in May




					people.com


----------



## bbodb1

bogey21 said:


> I'm not sure there are good answers to all these questions.  Is the alternative shutting down schools until next year...
> 
> George


To answer your question, George - I do not think anyone is suggesting that schools be shut down until next year.  Rather, there are changes that need to be made now - that can be made now - that would help get kids back to school. 

Unfortunately, as Amy suggests earlier, districts and state BOE's have been sitting on their hands since March.  _*That is inexcusable. *_

So how would a safer school day look?

Max students in a classroom have to be cut substantially.
Bus routes are going to have to be redesigned - and perhaps run multiple times each morning and afternoon.
Classrooms need to become spartan designed - having only what is absolutely necessary.  No fru-fru, no decor. 
Desks arranged six feet apart in all directions.
Student schedules staggered - not just with respect to arrival / departure times but also throughout the school day.
Facial coverings required (and yes, that sound you just heard was @Ken555 keeling over......).  I'll address this at the end.
Student screenings every day.  All staff screened every day.
Schools may need to split their students and staff in an A/B fashion.  Some starting even earlier in the morning and dismissing earlier in the afternoon, other grades start later, end later.
_*Extra curricular activities for the fall should not occur this year.  *_If all goes well, perhaps restart with the winter extra curricular activities. 

All these things (and more) *can* be done if a school board or a state DOE wants them to occur. 
Let's watch to see how many are actually implemented.

Now that Ken has regained consciousness, *because we are going to be forced into a situation where social distancing will not be possible and/or will be frequently violated*, facial coverings are going to have to be required.  The very nature of school being what it is, the unavoidable environmental conditions demand it. 

Are you okay, Ken?


----------



## cman

WVBaker said:


> Spike in Coronavirus Cases Causes Hundreds of Schools in South Korea to Close After Reopening
> 
> 
> South Korea began relaxing social distancing guidelines in May
> 
> 
> 
> 
> people.com


What's interesting about their response is the spike in cases that caused them to delay the reopening of the schools was only 79 cases for the entire country. They took this thing seriously from the beginning.


----------



## bogey21

bbodb1 said:


> To answer your question, George - I do not think anyone is suggesting that schools be shut down until next year.  Rather, there are changes that need to be made now - that can be made now - that would help get kids back to school.



The problem will be getting School Districts to (1) agree what has to be done, (2) implementing what they finally decide on, and (3) getting parents to buy in.  IMO this will not be easy...

George


----------



## TravelTime

More articles of teachers making six figures. I like this pay for performance concept.









						Does It Pay To Pay Teachers $100,000?
					

Once all but unattainable, a six-figure salary is a reality for a growing number of teachers.




					www.npr.org
				












						Do More, Add More, Earn More
					

An examination of how 10 school districts are redesigning teacher compensation systems so the teachers who make a bigger difference get a bigger paycheck.




					www.americanprogress.org
				












						11 School Districts That Pay Teachers Six Figures
					

Yes, it's true. Teachers who've been on the job for several years can earn six figures in many states.




					www.weareteachers.com
				












						Do teachers really make $100,000 per year?
					

Answer (1 of 11): Hi, Anonymous.  You haven’t asked where do teachers make 100k per annum, and you haven’t asked for what level of schooling, or after how many years of experience.  So your question as presently phrased, is not too useful. But I can supply an answer for my region of Australia. Le...




					www.quora.com
				




San Jose School District Salary Schedule:




__





						Box
					






					sjusd.app.box.com
				




Chicago School District Salary Schedule


			https://www.ctulocal1.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/TeacherTablesforCTUvote2019-web.pdf
		


Palo Alto, CA School District Salary Schedule








						1920Salary_Teacher_Dec4.pdf
					






					drive.google.com
				




Washington DC School District Salary Schedule


			https://dcps.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dcps/publication/attachments/ET-15%20FY%2019%20Pay%20Schedule.pdf
		


Houston School District Salary Schedule


			https://www.houstonisd.org/cms/lib2/TX01001591/Centricity/Domain/16074/salary%20schedules/2019-2020%20salary%20schedules/2019-2020%20Initial%20Compensation%20Placement%20Tables.pdf
		


NYC School District Salary Schedule


			https://www.uft.org/your-rights/salary/doe-and-city-salary-schedules/teachers-salary-schedule
		


Nassau County, NY Teacher Salaries


			https://www.nyssba.org/clientuploads/nyssba_pdf/TeacherContractSurvey/2017/area-11.pdf
		


Los Angeles District Teacher Salary Schedule


			https://achieve.lausd.net/cms/lib/CA01000043/Centricity/Domain/280/Salary%20Tables/Salary%2019-20/T%20Table.pdf


----------



## geekette

the first thing we need to do is get the infection under control.  It has been the first thing we need to do since the start.


----------



## Brett

WVBaker said:


> Spike in Coronavirus Cases Causes Hundreds of Schools in South Korea to Close After Reopening
> 
> 
> South Korea began relaxing social distancing guidelines in May
> 
> 
> 
> 
> people.com



that's one way of getting the kids and teachers back to school - encased in the "cone of social distance" !


----------



## Ken555

L.A. Unified will not reopen campuses for start of school year amid coronavirus spike 









						L.A. Unified will not reopen campuses for start of school year amid coronavirus spike
					

Because of the spike in coronavirus cases, Los Angeles public school campuses will not reopen for classes Aug. 18 and will remain shut indefinitely.




					www.latimes.com
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555

cman said:


> What's interesting about their response is the spike in cases that caused them to delay the reopening of the schools was only 79 cases for the entire country. They took this thing seriously from the beginning.



Imagine that...letting science dictate reopening and not politicians. If only we were so lucky.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## bbodb1

There are a lot of school administrators who make > $100K per year - and that is where cuts need to start.


----------



## Ken555

Coronavirus Live Updates: Los Angeles and San Diego Schools Will Go Online-Only in the Fall









						A Record 5.4 Million Americans Have Lost Health Insurance, Study Finds (Published 2020)
					

California’s governor announced a sweeping rollback of the state’s reopening and Los Angeles and San Diego school districts will be online-only in the fall. Dr. Anthony Fauci returned to the White House.




					www.nytimes.com
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Cornell

Despite the fact that I have been shouting "schools need to reopen this fall", I am 95% sure that my daughter will be doing the online-only option this fall.  

This decision has zero to do with Covid concerns, rather, we (me & my daughter) are not happy with the protocols put in place for in-school learning and the type of social environment it's going to create.

We will hear all the specific details about our district's plans on Wednesday & we will make our final decision at that point, but I doubt it will change our minds.


----------



## bbodb1

Picking up on @Ken555  post above, here is the message from the superintendent:


----------



## Glynda

I spoke to my professor. The situation is still fluid but the plan for now is that she will be in class five days a week plus her office hours. No more than 10 students will be allowed in her classroom. Everyone must wear masks, including the instructor and social distance.  Since she only has 9 students her first class of the morning, they will meet the regular three days a week. Her larger classes of 22 students will be divided in three groups. Each group will alternate days in class and days at home where it is mandatory that they watch her teaching the class on Zoom/live streaming. Hopefully, I am going to be allowed to just do Zoom. The situation could change and go to all online by the end August.


----------



## Monykalyn

"Roger" said:


> To be honest, I don't think there is a good answer. No matter what, there will be big negatives.


 This kinda sums up the whole debate...




missyrcrews said:


> I've been out in it every day because of Target, so it's not a big deal for me, as long as common sense prevails


 THIS right here-far far far far too many started out and remained in a fear "bubble" and the longer you stay in your bubble the harder it is to break out. Opposite can be said as well-too many never felt that fear bubble and now refuse to acknowledge the risk at all. And so there can't be a consensus on what is reasonable to do.


TravelTime said:


> Anyone who works with the public now or who is an essential worker is in the unfortunate position of being more at risk of catching covid but their salaries are not based on Covid. This is hopefully a once in a lifetime situation and we will return to working in safer conditions soon.


 Good point. Why were restaurant workers considered essential???? and for minimum wage. Nursing home workers didn't sign up to be essential-yet they go to work every day in a high risk environment. Did anyone give up animal products to protect our meat packing plants? No?


CPNY said:


> Thank you. It’s amazing how you can be fine for a few days then spend a whole night huffing and puffing.


 Ugh that sucks, Hope you have more and more good days. I can empathize with the breathing - nasty virus (very covid like but wasn't) in December and the only times I felt like breathing was normal was when I was on steroids.  My PCP finally got me on a regular inhaled steroid beginning a couple weeks ago and it's definitely helping-so 6 month recovery time from that illness.


DannyTS said:


> What is troubling to me, the teachers' unions do not seem to be interested in the actual science, they are asking questions that are seeking to manipulate into irrational fear rather than looking for answers that are known already in many cases. The unions have had almost 4 months to look at the science and they did nothing. They've even had more than enough time to order and coordinate their own studies if they did not trust the scientific research that is already there


 No one did anything other than wring their hands...and the data is that younger kids transmit and get infected at far far far (there will always be outliers before people start spewing the articles on the outliers) due to their physiology.  Why is this a "novel" coronavirus that doesn't act like previous viruses and then make the comparison that young kids are "germ factories" and now want to point to CV behaving like the usual? Legitimate concern on making sure schools do have adequate funding to clean, teachers have N95/face shields as needed etc..


cman said:


> It makes no sense for the districts with little to no C19 exposure to remain closed, and it makes no sense for a district with uncontrolled outbreaks to reopen. It should be based on local conditions, not mandated from a state or national level.


 You...mean...use logic, data and common sense?????????? nope not gonna happen.


WVBaker said:


> Spike in Coronavirus Cases Causes Hundreds of Schools in South Korea to Close After Reopening
> 
> 
> South Korea began relaxing social distancing guidelines in May
> 
> 
> 
> 
> people.com


None of that had to do with schools spreading virus. and if Korea and Hong Kong insist on no cases ever again before things can stay open then they will never get to normal. Even  a hypothetical vaccine will not be a magical solution.

Yes there is a risk reopening schools. I am not sure why people think life didn't have risk before and therefore we should expect zero risk at all ever again. something will always bring a risk. Mitigate best you can, evaluate what works, adapt. And give the schools the MONEY to do so-this country really doesn't need another 25 billion dollar fighter jet!

Studies about viral loads and hopefully more details on risk of infection rates will be coming soon. That may also help. There is all this concern about "asymptomatic" transmission, but severity of cases correlated with high viral loads in the _susceptible_ person, so if a viral load is so low that no symptoms show-just how much virus particles are being put out there? The other key point is one needs to be _susceptible_ to the virus in first place. Starting to see some studies modeling that less than 40% of population is even susceptible although that is very very preliminary and I am always leary of statisticians trying to model a disease


----------



## DannyTS

*The Dangers of Keeping the Schools Closed*










						The Dangers of Keeping the Schools Closed
					

"Medical experts who support school closures more generally clarify that they are a tool to be considered at the beginning of a pandemic, not seven months in. COVID-19 poses a far lesser risk to children for both death and infection. Closing schools will probably spare some schoolchildren from...




					www.aier.org


----------



## Luanne

DannyTS said:


> *The Dangers of Keeping the Schools Closed*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Dangers of Keeping the Schools Closed
> 
> 
> "Medical experts who support school closures more generally clarify that they are a tool to be considered at the beginning of a pandemic, not seven months in. COVID-19 poses a far lesser risk to children for both death and infection. Closing schools will probably spare some schoolchildren from...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aier.org


The school districts are going to do what the school districts are going to do.  It doesn't matter what we post here.


----------



## DannyTS

Luanne said:


> The school districts are going to do what the school districts are going to do.  It doesn't matter what we post here.


???


----------



## mdurette

My 14YO DD will be entering 8th grade in September.   At this point, they are opening...they have been doing zoom meetings with parents throughout the summer updating the ever changing plan.  They are building 3 large outdoor pavilions for classroom use and lunch when the kids can't wear masks.   They are trying hard.     Things are different for us, she goes to a small private school that can get a handle on things better.   I could not even imagine the nightmare for administrators of trying to work around all of this with 1000s of kiddos or the worry a parent that has a kid with a compromised immune system has.   I feel fortunate.

I'm concerned that she will have more exposure.   Her distant learning structure was more than what I expected and gave her great structure to her day...but I know she needs the social aspect of being in school.   I have faith that administrators will do the absolute best they can to minimize risk.  

The only thing so far that they have said that I am not a fan of is they have no plan to take temps daily.   As a parent I have heard from good friends in the past "Johnny had a fever this morning, but I had a work conference, so I pumped him full of tylenol, what was a supposed to do?"   "Susie was vomiting last night, hope she makes it through the day"   Ugh, some parents don't have the common sense to keep their kids home and at least the fever check "MAY" weed out something.

This schools plans is to keep kids in pods.   If one test positive in the pod, the entire pod will go to distance learning for 2 weeks.   The school is also small enough to know that positive child may ride to school with a kid in another pod or have a sibling in another.  Then all the pods will go to distance learning.

For teachers that have to teach to multiple pods....they will do so via video.   Kids in class...teacher on a large large video monitor in front of the class.


----------



## Cornell

@mdurette Thanks for this info. I love hearing about how different schools are handling things.  Your situation sounds about as ideal as I've heard.


----------



## DannyTS

mdurette said:


> My 14YO DD will be entering 8th grade in September.   At this point, they are opening...they have been doing zoom meetings with parents throughout the summer updating the ever changing plan.  They are building 3 large outdoor pavilions for classroom use and lunch when the kids can't wear masks.   They are trying hard.     Things are different for us, she goes to a small private school that can get a handle on things better.   I could not even imagine the nightmare for administrators of trying to work around all of this with 1000s of kiddos or the worry a parent that has a kid with a compromised immune system has.   I feel fortunate.
> 
> I'm concerned that she will have more exposure.   Her distant learning structure was more than what I expected and gave her great structure to her day...but I know she needs the social aspect of being in school.   I have faith that administrators will do the absolute best they can to minimize risk.
> 
> The only thing so far that they have said is they have no plan to take temps daily.   As a parent I have heard from good friends in the past "Johnny had a fever this morning, but I had a work conference, so I pumped him full of tylenol, what was a supposed to do?"   "Susie was vomiting last night, hope she makes it through the day"   Ugh, some parents don't have the common sense to keep their kids home and at least the fever check "MAY" weed out something.
> 
> This schools plans is to keep kids in pods.   If one test positive in the pod, the entire pod will go to distance learning for 2 weeks.   The school is also small enough to know that positive child may ride to school with a kid in another pod or have a sibling in another.  Then all the pods will go to distance learning.
> 
> For teachers that have to teach to multiple pods....they will do so via video.   Kids in class...teacher on a large large video monitor in front of the class.


I have one of those infrared thermometers, I bought it to check the isolation of our home a couple of years ago. 

The problem is that they are very inaccurate, at least the one I have. You can point it to the same spot and get a different read every time. I looked it up, this company for example (not my brand) says that the accuracy is ± 3.5° F , certainly not good enough. 
I do not know if other models are better but if not, they are probably useless.


----------



## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> Imagine that...letting science dictate reopening and not politicians. If only we were so lucky.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Imagine letting the science and not the unions dictate reopening the schools... 
*Top Pediatricians Tell NBC They Back Reopening Schools: “Yes,” “Absolutely,” “Without A Hesitation”*


----------



## WVBaker

*Michigan girl sent to juvenile detention for not doing online schoolwork*

Judge Mary Ellen Brennan, the presiding judge of the Oakland County Family Court Division, ruled that Grace was “guilty on failure to submit to any schoolwork and getting up for school.” She also called Grace a “threat to (the) community," the report said.









						Michigan girl sent to juvenile detention for not doing online schoolwork: report
					

A Michigan girl was incarcerated in May after she allegedly failed to finish her online schoolwork, according to a report.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Brett

Arlington Public Schools in Northern Virginia switches to remote learning for fall, reversing course

"*citing a recent increase in coronavirus cases nationwide*  Arlington Public Schools is scrapping a plan to offer in-person and virtual learning this fall and will instead require its 28,000 students to start the school year 100 percent online."

*https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/arlington-public-schools-switches-to-remote-learning-for-fall-reversing-course/2020/07/14/aabe4d3c-c605-11ea-a99f-3bbdffb1af38_story.html*


----------



## amycurl

My daughter is headed to boarding school in the fall in PA. They are using a pod model as well for dorms (so that the kids can have as "normal" on-dorm/living situation as possible,) with mask use and limited class contacts. The boarding school is very old, so this is not their first pandemic, LOL! 

Initially, my daughter's first choice was a public, performing arts magnet less than a mile from our house. They will be all remote for at least the first five weeks of the year, with a re-evaluation every five weeks (!). I think we're both kind of glad that, while she got in via audition, that she didn't get in via the lottery that was required when budget cuts over the summer demanded that they offer slots to a fewer number of students than expected.


----------



## Cornell

amycurl said:


> My daughter is headed to boarding school in the fall in PA. They are using a pod model as well for dorms (so that the kids can have as "normal" on-dorm/living situation as possible,) with mask use and limited class contacts. The boarding school is very old, so this is not their first pandemic, LOL!
> 
> Initially, my daughter's first choice was a public, performing arts magnet less than a mile from our house. They will be all remote for at least the first five weeks of the year, with a re-evaluation every five weeks (!). I think we're both kind of glad that, while she got in via audition, that she didn't get in via the lottery that was required when budget cuts over the summer demanded that they offer slots to a fewer number of students than expected.


Good plan with your daughter.


----------



## DannyTS

*Bars are reopening before schools. That doesn’t make sense









						Globe editorial: Bars are reopening before schools. That doesn’t make sense
					

There are enormous costs to keeping kids out of the classroom, and the risk of community transmission in elementary schools appears to be lower




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				



*


----------



## Cornell

DannyTS said:


> *Bars are reopening before schools. That doesn’t make sense
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Globe editorial: Bars are reopening before schools. That doesn’t make sense
> 
> 
> There are enormous costs to keeping kids out of the classroom, and the risk of community transmission in elementary schools appears to be lower
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theglobeandmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


The biggest "this makes no sense" for me was back in March when the SIP/SAH was in full force, recreational marijuana dispensaries were allowed to stay open in IL ...deemed "essential", yet they were ILLEGAL just 3 months prior.  That immediately (and still) set the tone with my thinking of "what is really going on here?".


----------



## Brett

*North Carolina schools to have mix of online, in-person classes*

The guidelines from the Department of Health and Human Services allows in-person instruction if students, teachers and staff members wear face coverings and people remain 6 feet (2 meters) apart at school. The plan also lets families decide whether to opt-in for remote learning.

“We know schools will look a lot different this year,” Cooper said in an afternoon news conference. “They have to to be safe and effective.”

*https://www.dailypress.com/news/education/vp-nw-north-carolina-schools-reopening-20200714-wroez4eh5zgb5kjlnmbeetwbc4-story.html*


----------



## Cornell

@Brett Thanks for sharing.  Reading up on all the back to school plans has become my newest hobby.


----------



## DannyTS

It will be very hard for teachers that have kids in school. My son's teacher has three girls, one of them in elementary school, a classmate and good friend with my daughter. I understand from different common friends that she was really struggling to juggle her own kids and  to teach the online classes.


----------



## geekette

Cornell said:


> The biggest "this makes no sense" for me was back in March when the SIP/SAH was in full force, recreational marijuana dispensaries were allowed to stay open in IL ...deemed "essential", yet they were ILLEGAL just 3 months prior.  That immediately (and still) set the tone with my thinking of "what is really going on here?".


Please give a thought to the medicinal uses.   A war vet with PTSD could be as in-need as an alcoholic.   Sounds like hippie recreation to some, but pain reliever/sanity saver for others.


----------



## Cornell

geekette said:


> Please give a thought to the medicinal uses.   A war vet with PTSD could be as in-need as an alcoholic.   Sounds like hippie recreation to some, but pain reliever/sanity saver for others.


I'm specifically referring to recreational.  Illegal 12/31/19.  Essential in 2020.


----------



## bbodb1

Brett said:


> View attachment 23631
> 
> *North Carolina schools to have mix of online, in-person classes*
> 
> The guidelines from the Department of Health and Human Services allows in-person instruction if students, teachers and staff members wear face coverings and people remain 6 feet (2 meters) apart at school. The plan also lets families decide whether to opt-in for remote learning.
> 
> “We know schools will look a lot different this year,” Cooper said in an afternoon news conference. “They have to to be safe and effective.”
> 
> *https://www.dailypress.com/news/education/vp-nw-north-carolina-schools-reopening-20200714-wroez4eh5zgb5kjlnmbeetwbc4-story.html*



See, this is going to be part of the problem - what exactly does it mean to remain 6 feet apart in a school where:

such distancing is unlikely impossible within a classroom with existing staff and student numbers - will schools hire more staff?
what about the physical space requirements to conduct school by these guidelines - schools will likely need more space - where will they get that?
Will transportation via buses be subject to the distance minimum?  If so, where will the money and time come from in order to run more bus routes?  In a good number of districts, teachers are also bus drivers.....
How about in the cafeteria?  The lunch staff is about to have a longer serving day it would seem...
What about restrooms?  
To be clear, it seems very reasonable to want these standards but it is going to take money (and now) to get this done.  
Perhaps the next stimulus plan should be scrapped in favor of a school stimulus plan....


----------



## Cornell

bbodb1 said:


> See, this is going to be part of the problem - what exactly does it mean to remain 6 feet apart in a school where:
> 
> such distancing is unlikely impossible within a classroom with existing staff and student numbers - will schools hire more staff?
> what about the physical space requirements to conduct school by these guidelines - schools will likely need more space - where will they get that?
> Will transportation via buses be subject to the distance minimum?  If so, where will the money and time come from in order to run more bus routes?  In a good number of districts, teachers are also bus drivers.....
> How about in the cafeteria?  The lunch staff is about to have a longer serving day it would seem...
> What about restrooms?
> To be clear, it seems very reasonable to want these standards but it is going to take money (and now) to get this done.
> Perhaps the next stimulus plan should be scrapped in favor of a school stimulus plan....


@bbodb1 YUP.  I've been following the roll out of each school district in IL with how they are implementing these rules.  The devil is in the details.  Some high schools here have 3000 kids.  They can't pull off these social distancing regulations w/this many kids given their physical space. So they are doing things like setting up tents outside for lunch and kids have to sit 6' apart at lunch in assigned seats.  In high school.  Or some schools are having kids remain in a cohort that they have to be with all day as they progress through their school day.  This way, if there is a positive test there will be ease in contact tracing.  Bathroom doors need to remain open for supervision.  We've come a family decision that we are *opting out* of this.  Too much.  I cannot have my 17 year old treated like a 8 year old.


----------



## geekette

Cornell said:


> I'm specifically referring to recreational.  Illegal 12/31/19.  Essential in 2020.


Recreational would be along with liquor and cig sales, then.


----------



## queenofthehive

Brett said:


> View attachment 23631
> 
> *North Carolina schools to have mix of online, in-person classes*
> 
> The guidelines from the Department of Health and Human Services allows in-person instruction if students, teachers and staff members wear face coverings and people remain 6 feet (2 meters) apart at school. The plan also lets families decide whether to opt-in for remote learning.
> 
> “We know schools will look a lot different this year,” Cooper said in an afternoon news conference. “They have to to be safe and effective.”
> 
> *https://www.dailypress.com/news/education/vp-nw-north-carolina-schools-reopening-20200714-wroez4eh5zgb5kjlnmbeetwbc4-story.html*


We are in this boat. For my son’s school, the school board is having meeting tomorrow night and we will then know more details. They will then have a virtual town hall for all the parents next week for questions etc. Lots to think about...


----------



## PigsDad

DannyTS said:


> It will be very hard for teachers that have kids in school. My son's teacher has three girls, one of them in elementary school, a classmate and good friend with my daughter. I understand from different common friends that she was really struggling to juggle her own kids and  to teach the online classes.


I think this statement applies to all working parents, not just teachers, IMO.  Trying to juggle helping their own kids with their online classes and performing their regular jobs.

Kurt


----------



## wilma

Cornell said:


> @bbodb1 YUP.  I've been following the roll out of each school district in IL with how they are implementing these rules.  The devil is in the details.  Some high schools here have 3000 kids.  They can't pull off these social distancing regulations w/this many kids given their physical space. So they are doing things like setting up tents outside for lunch and kids have to sit 6' apart at lunch in assigned seats.  In high school.  Or some schools are having kids remain in a cohort that they have to be with all day as they progress through their school day.  This way, if there is a positive test there will be ease in contact tracing.  Bathroom doors need to remain open for supervision.  We've come a family decision that we are *opting out* of this.  Too much.  I cannot have my 17 year old treated like a 8 year old.


What would your plan for safely reopening high schools look like?


----------



## DannyTS

wilma said:


> What would your plan for safely reopening high schools look like?


It is not fair to ask her this.  Should she just copy/paste from the European models since they  opened their schools successfully? Do you want her to come with a comprehensive plan when there are (many) people paid to do that and who have had 4 months to come up with the details?


----------



## geekette

DannyTS said:


> It is not fair to ask her this.  Should she just copy/paste from the European models since they  opened their schools successfully? Do you want her to come with a comprehensive plan when there are (many) people paid to do that and who have had 4 months to come up with the details?


That's ridiculous.  Cornell is no dumb bell and has been studying this, by her own admission!  Nobody is asking for an official document.  Asking someone for their thoughts is not an insult.


----------



## bbodb1

wilma said:


> What would your plan for safely reopening high schools look like?


I'll jump in on this a little bit because it is what has _*not*_ been occurring that is troublesome. 
When they were closed back in March, local districts should have started the conversation about what it would take to return to school safely.  _*This is NOT to suggest they could have come up with all of the answers and no plan would likely have survived the battlefield.*_ But the largest issue is few districts started this discussion back in March and here we are in July with the same state of affairs. No discussion. No public opportunities to interact and get involved. Too many districts are waiting on state guidance. That same state guidance has frequently resulted in placing the responsibilty back on the shoulders of the district to make a decision.

I am NOT suggesting all districts should have known the problem was _*this*_ serious back in March, but it should not have been long after that where districts should have started identifying what needed to be done in order to safely return to school in the fall. 

That did not occur.


----------



## bbodb1

I should also add - far too many school districts do not want parent involvement in times like this for a variety of reasons but among them is the fact that school boards do not like outside attention.


----------



## Luanne

bbodb1 said:


> I should also add - far too many school districts do not want parent involvement in times like this for a variety of reasons but among them is the fact that school boards do not like outside attention.


I know in the Santa Fe School District they took a poll among teachers and staff, parents and students.  Not surprisingly the students rated the highest on wanting to go back to school, parents were second, teachers and staff third.  I know that is not really getting parents input on the HOW, but just finding out what they'd prefer. The state of New Mexico has come up with several scenarios from totally virtual to totally on site, with a hybrid in the middle.  I believe each school district can come up with their own plan, then that needs to be submitted to the governor.  Several school districts have already decided to go completely online in the Fall.


----------



## DannyTS

geekette said:


> That's ridiculous.  Cornell is no dumb bell and has been studying this, by her own admission!  Nobody is asking for an official document.  Asking someone for their thoughts is not an insult.


She does not need my permission to answer. But we all know that every school is different, every area is different, different ages, different everything. She can make general statements  but if you want a real plan you need a lot more than that. It is not her job.

If people who are in charge do not know where to start they should inquire the schools that opened successfully already, including in N. A.


----------



## wilma

DannyTS said:


> It is not fair to ask her this.  Should she just copy/paste from the European models since they  opened their schools successfully? Do you want her to come with a comprehensive plan when there are (many) people paid to do that and who have had 4 months to come up with the details?


Let’s let her answer the question...


----------



## bogey21

Has anyone considered just pulling their kids out of school for a year.  The rationale would be (1) to avoid the virus and (2) to avoid less than desirable learning .  While at home parents could get them involved with some Internet Instruction sites so all would not be lost.  Next year when they return to school it would be in the grade level they missed.  Yes, I know this would be radical but...

George


----------



## Luanne

bogey21 said:


> Has anyone considered just pulling their kids out of school for a year.  The rationale would be (1) to avoid the virus and (2) to avoid less than desirable learning .  While at home parents could get them involved with some Internet Instruction sites so all would not be lost.  Next year when they return to school it would be in the grade level they missed.  Yes, I know this would be radical but...
> 
> George


Could they do that?  Isn't there something in place requiring kids to be in school, or home schooled?  I don't have young kids so as I've said before I have no pony in the race, but I'm finding the discussions interesting. So, now I'm off to find out if someone could just pull their child out for a year.

And I'm back.  Looks like children are required to be in school until they are 16.

"Compulsory education laws require children to attend a public or state-accredited private school for a certain period of time. There are certain exceptions, most notably homeschooling, but virtually all states have mandates for when children must begin school and how old they must be before dropping out. Typically, children must start school by the age of six and remain enrolled until they are at least 16. "

https://education.findlaw.com/education-options/compulsory-education-laws-background.html


----------



## Glynda

Cornell said:


> The biggest "this makes no sense" for me was back in March when the SIP/SAH was in full force, recreational marijuana dispensaries were allowed to stay open in IL ...deemed "essential", yet they were ILLEGAL just 3 months prior.  That immediately (and still) set the tone with my thinking of "what is really going on here?".



Were liquor and wine stores open then too? They were deemed essential here. 

My biggest "this makes no sense" was when SC opened dining outside and then _just three days later, _opened inside dining and everything else. About ten days after that, our cases started rising and haven't stopped. Our local news last night said that hospitals in CHS are looking for places for additional needed ICU units and there is a limited quantity of the Remdesivir drug. SC had its first death of a child under age five and two cases of MIS-C in children last week. It wasn't fun reading our newspaper's front page headline this morning, "Downtown now virus hot-spot's epicenter."


----------



## Cornell

wilma said:


> What would your plan for safely reopening high schools look like?


I'm sure my idea of "safe" is different than many here on TUG because I am not particularly worried about C19 in regards to children (that does not mean I want to any children to get sick).  There is lots of evidence that children are at low risk of contracting C19, EXTREMELY low risk of dying from it, and unlikely to transmit to adults.  

Given that the schools have fully re-opened in Europe w/o any dire consequences, I'm all for fully  opening up.   Sure , there can be some adjustments like no assemblies, encourage more kids to take off campus lunch, etc.  

Schools are bending over backwards -- families that don't feel comfortable, choose the online only option.  

But these hybrid plans are not good , from my perspective.  They give the illusion of in person school, but the rules & regulations take away any ability for teens to have the social-emotional interaction that school should provide.  

And yes, I am aware that there are teachers and adults in the schools.  But there are adults working in all sorts of other professions, too , and those professions / industries  have figured out how to make it work.


----------



## Cornell

Glynda said:


> Were liquor and wine stores open then too? They were deemed essential here.
> 
> My biggest "this makes no sense" was when SC opened dining outside and then _just three days later, _opened inside dining and everything else. About ten days after that, our cases started rising and haven't stopped. Our local news last night said that hospitals in CHS are looking for places for additional needed ICU units and there is a limited quantity of the Remdesivir drug. SC had its first death of a child under age five and two cases of MIS-C in children last week. It wasn't fun reading our newspaper's front page headline this morning, "Downtown now virus hot-spot's epicenter."


Yes, liquor stores open too.  

I think there have been a lot of "head scratchers" along the way.  My new favorite one is that the restaurants cannot refill water glasses from a pitcher.


----------



## WinniWoman

Yes they should.


----------



## geekette

DannyTS said:


> She does not need my permission to answer. But we all know that every school is different, every area is different, different ages, different everything. She can make general statements  but if you want a real plan you need a lot more than that. It is not her job.
> 
> If people who are in charge do not know where to start they should inquire the schools that opened successfully already, including in N. A.


Nobody here needs your permission for anything.

Who said was her job ???  

Nobody asked her for "a real plan".    Do you think someone here is expecting to send their kids to their schools with her plan?? 

Not sure anyone here is in charge of crafting a plan with no idea where to start, but I'm sure they will heed your advice if they do happen to be on tug desperately seeking opening tips...


----------



## Cornell

geekette said:


> . Do you think someone here is expecting to send their kids to their schools with her plan??


Wait, what?  I am not in charge of education in this country?  Why wasn't I informed?    
I'm sure many on TUG are relieved of that.  

But seriously, all good!  I enjoy the discussions here & learning everyone's opinions.


----------



## geekette

Cornell said:


> Wait, what?  I am not in charge of education in this country?  Why wasn't I informed?
> I'm sure many on TUG are relieved of that.
> 
> But seriously, all good!  I enjoy the discussions here & learning everyone's opinions.


Well, it was supposed to be a surprise.   Since Danny went and said it wasn't your job (yet - I assume he is your agent, making sure you aren't on the job one minute before the paycheck starts - that's a good agent!), we might as well tell you, you are due in DC in 3 hours, and you better have that full plan done with 30 bound copies.   Congratulations!!!  

No shock to me that you're a good sport.  I would have been very surprised if you'd posted No, I'm Not Telling My Ideas!  

Seriously, people have different stakes and takes.  On all matters of life.  Tug has been around a long while, sorting pebbles from dirt, some liking pebbles, some liking dirt.  I didn't know it would somehow be rude to ask someone what they would do in X situation, how many times has that been done in Tug lounge??     I didn't at all think it was some kind of sinister question to you, and will go ahead and believe that being asked what you think is a compliment, not an insult.  That is apparently not universally true.  oh boy, learned something new...


----------



## cman

New York released a data driven plan that makes sense. It's based on the infection rate.





__





						Governor Cuomo Announces New Data-Driven Guidance for Reopening Schools
					

Governor Cuomo announced new, data-driven guidance for reopening schools in New York State.




					www.governor.ny.gov


----------



## Cornell

@geekette  you make me laugh . TY


----------



## geekette

Cornell said:


> @geekette  you make me laugh . TY


You are totally welcome!   I think we are about same place on the sarcasometer, as I have certainly enjoyed your wit.   I know there is a disaster raging out there, but not in my house, so I brew levity and pour some as necessary.


----------



## DannyTS

geekette said:


> Seriously, people have different stakes and takes.  On all matters of life.  Tug has been around a long while, sorting pebbles from dirt, some liking pebbles, some liking dirt.  I didn't know it would somehow be rude to ask someone what they would do in X situation, how many times has that been done in Tug lounge??     I didn't at all think it was some kind of sinister question to you, and will go ahead and believe that being asked what you think is a compliment, not an insult.  That is apparently not universally true.  oh boy, learned something new...


OK, you got your answers from Cornell and you attacked me, both missions accomplished. It is amusing to note how short some fuses are and how some people respond, that serves at sorting pebbles from mud too. 
Sinister question or not (did I say that or you said it?), but bbodb1's answer was gratified with an angry face. Kind of shows the intend and the group thinking regardless of what you say.


----------



## SteelerGal

So my County, OC, is all in the news because a OCDE Task Force decided to do go against CDC guidelines.  Many OC SD are still planning to go back in person in some form.  I wouldn’t be surprised if OC County doesn’t sue at some point.(The County has threatened a # of lawsuits for various reasons since Covid started).

Here’s my SD Reopening Plan:
In Person or Hybrid

Virtual Learning


In person, will require masks, temperature check , closed campus, some outside teaching, plexi glass tables, and pods.  No busing except for SN.(we subsidized the cost)

Hybrid is still being reviewed because teacher’s will be on campus. No remote teaching. Due to 40% of families utilize paid before/after care at elementary level, a # families have children at different grade levels, specialized SN programs, etc,it’s been tougher to accommodate the needs of many.

Virtual is for any family who choose.  It’s a yr commitment however if a change back to B&M can be accommodated, a student can go back to the regular program.  Virtual is completely separate from our HomeBound program.

Btw, our area has involved parents from Day 1.  There are many organizations involved and they have heard from parents, students, and teachers, we all want to go back in person.  And it means that there will be a budget shortfall so it’s likely we will be fundraising, donating until the end of time.


----------



## geekette

I have yet to attack.  I've been around here a long while, far longer than you, most people would not consider me to be An Attacker.

I called your post ridiculous.  I have not called you ridiculous.  I was honestly surprised by your "not her job!" post as it did seem an overreaction.  I have overreacted on occasion, myself.  Humans do that sometimes.   Humans also often disagree, and can do so nicely.  That is part of the long history of Tug. 

I did not use the word sinister, can't imagine in what context I would have.  I don't give a crap about group think, I have my own think going on.   I speak for Me only.  And I am the only one authorized to speak for me.

If you did not get a chuckle out of the you as Cornell's agent crack, I'm sorry.  I meant it to be funny, not mean or sinister.   If you felt it was an insult to you, I am sorry, that was definitely not intended, more like a compliment.   It reminded me of one of the contracts I worked long ago, where the site customer would "wonder what it would take to ..." and our PM would jump up and make damned sure none of us answered any questions without a PO.   It was his role, no ideas from the talent without pay.



eta....   I did indeed use the word sinister, as a modifier for "question".   sinister question.   

amuse your short fuse


----------



## billymach4

My 2 cents. School should NOT reopen. One of the individuals I know that has passed away from Covid is a teacher that contracted the virus from students in his school. He left a wife and 2 boys.


----------



## beejaybeeohio

Cornell said:


> @bbodb1 YUP.  I've been following the roll out of each school district in IL with how they are implementing these rules.  The devil is in the details.  Some high schools here have 3000 kids.  They can't pull off these social distancing regulations w/this many kids given their physical space. So they are doing things like setting up tents outside for lunch and kids have to sit 6' apart at lunch in assigned seats.  In high school.  Or some schools are having kids remain in a cohort that they have to be with all day as they progress through their school day.  This way, if there is a positive test there will be ease in contact tracing.  Bathroom doors need to remain open for supervision.  We've come a family decision that we are *opting out* of this.  Too much.  I cannot have my 17 year old treated like a 8 year old.



Guess your 17 year old doesn't go to a Catholic H.S.. If so there'd not be much difference pre/post Covid.

BTW, what does your 17 year old think of the options your school district is presenting?


----------



## Chrispee

Cornell said:


> Wait, what?  I am not in charge of education in this country?  Why wasn't I informed?
> I'm sure many on TUG are relieved of that.



I wouldn't sell yourself short @Cornell as you might actually have the necessary qualifications for the job at this point 

All joking aside, I'd like to share that I'm currently running in-person summer programs at a school with physically distanced students.  It's gratifying to be able to provide the social and emotional piece of education that the students have been missing, but it's a real challenge providing a safe environment.  We have groups of no more than 8 students with no shared workstations and still it's a constant battle maintaining 2m (6ft) physical distance.  We are essentially running at 20% capacity and I see major challenges with the facility going over 50% capacity.

In-person education is important in so many ways (the economy being a slice of that pie), but from my experience I can absolutely understand how there would be educators who feel vulnerable and are resisting the full opening of schools.  Employing a centralized and systematic approach to opening options based on science and common sense will be paramount to the successful partial or full reopening of schools.  In districts lacking strong administration and clear directives the return to school is likely to be a mess in my opinion.


----------



## DannyTS

Deleted. When I posted I only watched the video but I realize the article at the bottom is political indeed. Thanks Brett for pointing it out.


----------



## Brett

stuff deleted per the prior post  !

.
.


----------



## DannyTS

PigsDad said:


> I think this statement applies to all working parents, not just teachers, IMO.  Trying to juggle helping their own kids with their online classes and performing their regular jobs.
> 
> Kurt


I agree, we are among them. I am in contact with many of our friends who have kids, it is more difficult for some than for others. Some work but they have more flexible hours, others can work at different times than their spouses. I just do not see teachers having that flexibility.


----------



## Cornell

beejaybeeohio said:


> Guess your 17 year old doesn't go to a Catholic H.S.. If so there'd not be much difference pre/post Covid.
> 
> BTW, what does your 17 year old think of the options your school district is presenting?


I looked into the Catholic school route (she went to Cath school from K-8th grade).  But here they have to follow all the same rules & regs so it won't be much different than her public HS.

My 17 YO was the one who approached me about online-only learning.  Once she learned the only in school learning was going to be "hybrid", we started digging into the details and recognized how "prison-like" it's going to feel.  We both decided that the benefits of the time at school will be far outweighed by the negatives.  She doesn't want to be around the hyper covid-culture all day either.  I just have to have faith that the online learning will be a higher caliber than last spring.

I plan on renting her a spot at a co-working space.  She will enjoy being around working adults and by being in an "office" to work it will psychologically help her.

And to be clear @DannyTS comment didn't bother me at all.  I'm all good with him.


----------



## bogey21

My Daughter has kids 13, 11 and 8.  All attend a small Christian School (similar to the one she and her Brother attended).  I haven't discussed this in depth with her but my understanding is the the parents and the School administration sat down together and agreed on how they will handle all on campus classes.  I guess this is one of the benefits of small private schools...

George


----------



## DannyTS

Cornell said:


> I plan on renting her a spot at a co-working space.  She will enjoy being around working adults and by being in an "office" to work it will psychologically help her.


This is such a great idea. I hope she will enjoy the experience.


----------



## Cornell

I'm chuckling inside b/c all of these school plans use the phrase "grab & go" .  Add this to your phrase list for 2020 (along with "social distancing", "contact tracing", etc).  










						Lunch will be served, but how? Schools weigh options to crowded cafeterias
					

School-aged children already eating outdoors with their families on patios and sidewalks outside restaurants this summer may still be dining alfresco if and when they return to school buildings in the fall. Among the ways schools will try to keep students socially distant at lunchtime is by...




					www.dailyherald.com


----------



## bogey21

Cornell said:


> I plan on renting her a spot at a co-working space.  She will enjoy being around working adults and by being in an "office" to work it will psychologically help her.



I think this is a fabulous idea...

George


----------



## Cornell

bogey21 said:


> I think this is a fabulous idea...
> 
> George


You know what George? * I really appreciate your comment*. You seem like a wise man.  I'm going to admit, I'm really struggling right now.  As a single mom, raising my daughter has been absolutely an exhausting (and rewarding!) experience.  This upcoming year has thrown some major obstacles our way.  So getting some positive feedback right now really helps.  

My daughter is pretty independent & mature. I think a co-work setting will be a nice environment for her.  It will give her a peek, too, into her future as an adult.


----------



## ilene13

I am a retired high school mathematics teacher (27 years)  and high school principal (16 years).  I spent 43 years in Public eduction.  The countries in Europe that have opened schools have had very LOW virus counts.  Here is a scenario that has made me decide that I am thrilled that I am retired and that I don't have to stress over this:
 Schools open.  On a Monday a substitute is called into a building to sub for a teacher.  That sub has had contact with 130 students (high school) and multiple staff members.  That sub goes home and then goes to a different school on Tuesday and a different one each subsequent day.  On Friday the sub  is exhausted but chalks it up to working the full week.  On Saturday that person wakes up with a 103 temperature.  Goes to the ER and is tested for COVID.  Test is positive.  5 different schools with many students and staff members have now been exposed.  What do you do??
IMHO you keep schools on online learning until there is a major reduction in cases or a vaccine.


----------



## elaine

our VA county (DC suburbs)  just voted for 9 weeks all remote starting in Sept. except special ed and ESL, then possible hybrid with 2 days in person starting 2nd 9 weeks. Football flipped to spring (if at all). Head of school board is a physician.


----------



## Luanne

Santa Fe School district, along with several others in New Mexico, will start back to school 100% online.  The way the state proposal has been drawn up, how the schools start the school year can change to a hybrid, or fully open model as thing change.


----------



## pedro47

ilene13 said:


> I am a retired high school mathematics teacher (27 years)  and high school principal (16 years).  I spent 43 years in Public eduction.  The countries in Europe that have opened schools have had very LOW virus counts.  Here is a scenario that has made me decide that I am thrilled that I am retired and that I don't have to stress over this:
> Schools open.  On a Monday a substitute is called into a building to sub for a teacher.  That sub has had contact with 130 students (high school) and multiple staff members.  That sub goes home and then goes to a different school on Tuesday and a different one each subsequent day.  On Friday the sub  is exhausted but chalks it up to working the full week.  On Saturday that person wakes up with a 103 temperature.  Goes to the ER and is tested for COVID.  Test is positive.  5 different schools with many students and staff members have now been exposed.  What do you do??
> IMHO you keep schools on online learning until there is a major reduction in cases or a vaccine.


An expert in education has spoken with forty three (43) years of experience IMHO. Are we going to listen to an expert?


----------



## billymach4

pedro47 said:


> An expert in education has spoken with forty three (43) years of experience IMHO. Are we going to listen to an expert?


No why should anyone in the Proud and Free USA listen to any expert. We know how to handle everything and anything. USA! USA! USA! .. BTW we need a dead horse emoji?


----------



## bluehende

billymach4 said:


> Just read a headline
> *"Science should not stand in the way" of opening schools because it's "on our side"*
> 
> *Just search the news. SMH*


When you mix science and politics you get politics.

George Will


----------



## billymach4

bluehende said:


> When you mix science and politics you get politics.
> 
> George Will


Who mentioned anything about politics? Against the rules here? Isn't it?


----------



## needvaca

pedro47 said:


> An expert in education has spoken with forty three (43) years of experience IMHO. Are we going to listen to an expert?


So I have 4 kids in the public school system now. Spring elearning (aka no learning) was a disaster.  Why should I trust that the public schools can do remote learning right?


----------



## bluehende

billymach4 said:


> Who mentioned anything about politics? Against the rules here? Isn't it?


And now I have forced you to.  

We can pretend I mentioned science


----------



## billymach4

bluehende said:


> And now I have forced you to.
> 
> We can pretend I mentioned science


You something. This whole freakin subject is rife with that 800 lb Gorilla. Who are we kidding here. Everyone knows that. As long as we are polite everyone is happy. Just go on FB for the real deal.


----------



## jackio

NY has released their guidelines plus an additional document clarifying some points.
Each district must submit 3 plans : full in-person learning, full virtual learning, and a hybrid version.
Social distancing must be maintained.  In the event it cannot be maintained (like on a school bus), masks must be worn at all times.  
Fall sports will be delayed and played in the early spring.
Individuals with medical conditions that put them at increased risk (both students and staff) will have accommodations made.  
It will be interesting to see what the plans look like, and what we eventually end up doing.


----------



## mdurette

ilene13 said:


> Schools open.  On a Monday a substitute is called into a building to sub for a teacher.  That sub has had contact with 130 students (high school) and multiple staff members.  That sub goes home and then goes to a different school on Tuesday and a different one each subsequent day.  On Friday the sub  is exhausted but chalks it up to working the full week.  On Saturday that person wakes up with a 103 temperature.  Goes to the ER and is tested for COVID.  Test is positive.  5 different schools with many students and staff members have now been exposed.  What do you do??
> IMHO you keep schools on online learning until there is a major reduction in cases or a vaccine.



My DD's school (small private) have already announced they will not have subs this year.   (unless is it for something like long term medical like a teacher having a baby).    They will deal with daily subs with admin staff if needed.


----------



## Cornell

Our school district released their plans yesterday.  It's a district that serves 12,000 students across 6 high schools.

I was blown away by the ingenuity & creativity of the plan.  Complete thinking outside of the box by the people who put this together -- all while working within the guidelines that IDPH has given them.

It's very complex to describe here.  The high level summary: they have outfitted all of the classrooms with new audio systems.  EVERY day , in every class teachers will be streaming their classes live.  Students on any given day can choose to participate in class from home or go to school. There is no "hybrid" thing.  Students do not have to commit to a at home vs. online option -- they make the choice day by day.  

They have done some clever things with schedules and lunch to reduce the number of kids in the hallways and forming large groups at lunch.  Additionally, the schedule has been creatively re-jiggered so that kids who want to work from home have lots of opportunities to physically come into school for one-on-one help from a teacher or to book an appt with a teacher online. 

I have seen no other plan like this and I've been researching all of them!  Now let's see how this actually plays out this fall.


----------



## beejaybeeohio

ilene13 said:


> I am a retired high school mathematics teacher (27 years)  and high school principal (16 years).  I spent 43 years in Public eduction.  The countries in Europe that have opened schools have had very LOW virus counts.  Here is a scenario that has made me decide that I am thrilled that I am retired and that I don't have to stress over this:
> Schools open.  On a Monday a substitute is called into a building to sub for a teacher.  That sub has had contact with 130 students (high school) and multiple staff members.  That sub goes home and then goes to a different school on Tuesday and a different one each subsequent day.  On Friday the sub  is exhausted but chalks it up to working the full week.  On Saturday that person wakes up with a 103 temperature.  Goes to the ER and is tested for COVID.  Test is positive.  5 different schools with many students and staff members have now been exposed.  What do you do??
> IMHO you keep schools on online learning until there is a major reduction in cases or a vaccine.



Post-retirement from the public schools I have worked at for-profit charter elementary and high schools. Given that those schools did not hire subs, it might be a safer bet for parents to look into sending their kids to one of those.

During my long career in a public school system, substitute teachers seemed to be a dying breed. I suspect that the majority of teachers on the sub list would think long and hard before accepting an assignment due to Covid concerns.

I currently am 7 hours weekly at a hybrid high school (on-line classes with an in-person teacher) for 16-22 year olds, who are high risk for not graduating. The management company has provided extensive guidelines for the upcoming school year which including returning to closure should Covid emerge in students or staff. When our gov. closed schools in March, students were permitted to make appointments with their subject teachers to assist with any difficulties they encountered working online. This actually worked better for most students since they did not have the drama distractions of in-person attendance. 

However, many of our students are dropouts from wholly online schools. They've reported that it was too easy to put off logging in to class, help was not available when needed and, if on an IEP, it was not fully implemented.

While online learning is a sane solution for students and teachers during Covid, our priority as a country should be doing everything possible to be able to reopen our schools so there is minimal risk for contracting the illness.


----------



## bbodb1

mdurette said:


> My DD's school (small private) have already announced they will not have subs this year.   (unless is it for something like long term medical like a teacher having a baby).    They will deal with daily subs with admin staff if needed.


If this were a public school, I would give that about 3 weeks before some other plan is pursued.  Being a private school has many advantages but even private school administration can only sub so much before their effectiveness in their actual position(s) suffer.


----------



## bbodb1

jackio said:


> NY has released their guidelines plus an additional document clarifying some points.
> Each district must submit 3 plans : full in-person learning, full virtual learning, and a hybrid version.
> Social distancing must be maintained.  In the event it cannot be maintained (like on a school bus), masks must be worn at all times.
> *Fall sports will be delayed and played in the early spring*.
> Individuals with medical conditions that put them at increased risk (both students and staff) will have accommodations made.
> It will be interesting to see what the plans look like, and what we eventually end up doing.



I missed this in an earlier read - is NY the first state to formally push fall athletics to the spring?

If so, this is going to have some interesting side effects where fall and spring sports conflict for some athletes _*and especially in smaller schools.*_
It may be the case some smaller schools will not be able to field teams in the spring with so many sports offered concurrently.  
Hopefully this is only for one year......hopefully.


----------



## bbodb1

beejaybeeohio said:


> ..
> During my long career in a public school system, substitute teachers seemed to be a dying breed. I suspect that the majority of teachers on the sub list would think long and hard before accepting an assignment due to Covid concerns.
> ..



I worked three years as a substitute teacher and one thing I learned quickly was that if almost always said yes to a sub assignment, there were usually 2 or 3 more sub needs waiting right behind that one.  Although I was only on the sub list for one school district, once a a school and I made contact, it did not take long to fill up my calendar.  That was several years ago, before the tax law changes pretty much stopped local school districts from maintaining their own pool of substitutes.  

At present, substitute teachers are employed by a service bureau that contracts with schools for their services.  _*In brief, this system has been a failure from every possible point of view.*_ One of the main points of failure has been a lack of supply of substitutes - specifically, a teacher calls in sick that morning and the substitute service bureau is notified. If no substitute is available, the service bureau in essence says "Sorry, we do not have any available subs!" and the school is left scrambling.

The tax laws need to be revised so it is not so penal for school districts to employ their own substitute teachers...



beejaybeeohio said:


> ..
> While online learning is a sane solution for students and teachers during Covid, our priority as a country should be doing everything possible to be able to reopen our schools so there is minimal risk for contracting the illness.
> ..


Though I know the odds of this ever occurring are microscopically small, I would really like to see a complete revision of how we teach.  Online learning (and believing it can be effective) is among the greatest lies of the 21st century.  Yes, online learning can be valuable - as a means of curriculum reinforcement - but the process of learning is dulled by overuse of the online experience.  Teaching to the test has become a way of life in our public schools and that has to stop.  It literally kills student interest.  

I'd love to take a class of kids away from the classroom each day - and away from all electronic tethers to the outside world.  How many lessons could one teach from the act of planning for, planting and caring for a garden for example?  Our current education system has erred much too far toward lecturing and listening and away from doing.  It is sad.


----------



## Cornell

@bbodb1 Regarding HS sports - there was a discussion in my area to "flip" spring sports with fall sports this year.  The idea was that football could be moved to the spring--  as that is the sport which is most  struggling to pull off operating under the new restrictions.  

However, the backlash was swift and didn't go anywhere.  Football is "THE" sport around here.  Many are limit-up with the perception that the world revolves around the football programs.


----------



## Brett

bbodb1 said:


> I worked three years as a substitute teacher and one thing I learned quickly was that if almost always said yes to a sub assignment, there were usually 2 or 3 more sub needs waiting right behind that one.  Although I was only on the sub list for one school district, once a a school and I made contact, it did not take long to fill up my calendar.  That was several years ago, before the tax law changes pretty much stopped local school districts from maintaining their own pool of substitutes.
> 
> At present, substitute teachers are employed by a service bureau that contracts with schools for their services.  _*In brief, this system has been a failure from every possible point of view.*_ One of the main points of failure has been a lack of supply of substitutes - specifically, a teacher calls in sick that morning and the substitute service bureau is notified. If no substitute is available, the service bureau in essence says "Sorry, we do not have any available subs!" and the school is left scrambling.
> 
> The tax laws need to be revised so it is not so penal for school districts to employ their own substitute teachers...
> 
> 
> Though I know the odds of this ever occurring are microscopically small, I would really like to see a complete revision of how we teach.  Online learning (and believing it can be effective) is among the greatest lies of the 21st century.  Yes, online learning can be valuable - as a means of curriculum reinforcement - but the process of learning is dulled by overuse of the online experience.  Teaching to the test has become a way of life in our public schools and that has to stop.  It literally kills student interest.
> 
> I'd love to take a class of kids away from the classroom each day - and away from all electronic tethers to the outside world.  How many lessons could one teach from the act of planning for, planting and caring for a garden for example?  Our current education system has erred much too far toward lecturing and listening and away from doing.  It is sad.



I admit I'm not up to speed on substitute teachers
I thought it was the low pay of substitute teachers causing the shortage, not how they are taxed.


----------



## bbodb1

Brett said:


> I admit I'm not up to speed on substitute teachers
> I thought it was the low pay of substitute teachers causing the shortage, not how they are taxed.



I probably won't get this exactly correct here, @Brett but changes to the tax code (2015 - I think) made it much more costly for school districts to employ substitute teachers because the district had to incur more costs with respect to substitute teachers.  Essentially, the district had to provide the same benefits and incur the same costs for substitute teachers as they would for every day employees.  The result of that tax change gave reason for temporary agencies to enter the field (providing substitute teachers) because school districts were not going to incur these costs.

Think of it this way - if (somehow) a school district could operate using a very small number of substitute teachers, it might then make sense for the district to bear the extra costs since they would have (more) direct control with respect to assigning the substitute teacher(s) as needed.  But substitute teacher demand is rarely predictable and there are days a school district may need NO subs then followed by a day where a dozen or more was needed.

Under the tax law change, the cost to a district was much larger for each sub *if the school hired the sub.*  By contracting with a temp service, schools could theorteically have access to as many subs as they needed _*without incurring the benefit costs or tax obligation(s).*_  The down side (as you might guess) is when school demand is more than the temp service can provide.

Also, these temp services are unlikely to only provide service to one school so their assets may be available to multiple schools.  The temp service is a business after all so this makes sense, but in our experience it has been common for sub requests to the temp service to go unfilled because the temp service just does not have enough substitutes.  Then what does a school do?

As to your first point, substitute teachers are not paid well but prior to the tax change, most school districts were able to keep a dedicated pool of substitutes happy because they kept the substitute busy with one school district.  But in all fairness, the substitute teaching requirements vary wildly from state to state.  You'd be shocked at how little is required to be a substitute teacher in some states.

_Edit: I believe the following is still correct though some districts do have higher standards:






						How to Become a Substitute Teacher in Arkansas - Certification Map
					

The Arkansas Department of Education defines a substitute teacher as an individual who does not hold an Arkansas teaching license but is employed by a local school district to provide classroom teaching services on an occasional and/or temporary basis. The following documentation is required by...




					certificationmap.com
				



_


----------



## Brett

bbodb1 said:


> I probably won't get this exactly correct here, @Brett but changes to the tax code (2015 - I think) made it much more costly for school districts to employ substitute teachers because the district had to incur more costs with respect to substitute teachers.  Essentially, the district had to provide the same benefits and incur the same costs for substitute teachers as they would for every day employees.  The result of that tax change gave reason for temporary agencies to enter the field (providing substitute teachers) because school districts were not going to incur these costs.
> 
> Think of it this way - if (somehow) a school district could operate using a very small number of substitute teachers, it might then make sense for the district to bear the extra costs since they would have (more) direct control with respect to assigning the substitute teacher(s) as needed.  But substitute teacher demand is rarely predictable and there are days a school district may need NO subs then followed by a day where a dozen or more was needed.
> 
> Under the tax law change, the cost to a district was much larger for each sub *if the school hired the sub.*  By contracting with a temp service, schools could theorteically have access to as many subs as they needed _*without incurring the benefit costs or tax obligation(s).*_  The down side (as you might guess) is when school demand is more than the temp service can provide.
> 
> Also, these temp services are unlikely to only provide service to one school so their assets may be available to multiple schools.  The temp service is a business after all so this makes sense, but in our experience it has been common for sub requests to the temp service to go unfilled because the temp service just does not have enough substitutes.  Then what does a school do?
> 
> As to your first point, substitute teachers are not paid well but prior to the tax change, most school districts were able to keep a dedicated pool of substitutes happy because they kept the substitute busy with one school district.  But in all fairness, the substitute teaching requirements vary wildly from state to state.  You'd be shocked at how little is required to be a substitute teacher in some states.
> 
> _Edit: I believe the following is still correct though some districts do have higher standards:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How to Become a Substitute Teacher in Arkansas - Certification Map
> 
> 
> The Arkansas Department of Education defines a substitute teacher as an individual who does not hold an Arkansas teaching license but is employed by a local school district to provide classroom teaching services on an occasional and/or temporary basis. The following documentation is required by...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> certificationmap.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _



right, substitute teachers taxed similar to other contractors working for the government
but if substitute teachers were issued 1099's with no benefits or cash ---   a different 'tax' situation


----------



## Cornell

Because of our school development (my kid being able to be in school remotely as she sees fit) AND the fact that I can work remotely, too....I am turning lemons into LEMONADE.

This exhausted, beleaguered mother has made the executive decision that we (me, the teen, and the dog) are going to pack up the car this fall.  Rent a VRBO somewhere and work/school in a new location for a change of scenery.  We are usually not road trip type of girls, but could be fun!


----------



## elaine

Cornell, if kids can deside each day, how does school social distance? What if 25 kids all decide to show up for a class? Will there be a reservation system? Most of our HS classes Had 25-30 kids.


----------



## Cornell

elaine said:


> Cornell, if kids can deside each day, how does school social distance? What if 25 kids all decide to show up for a class? Will there be a reservation system? Most of our HS classes Had 25-30 kids.


Illinois rules are 50 or less are allowed per physical space


----------



## jackio

bbodb1 said:


> I missed this in an earlier read - is NY the first state to formally push fall athletics to the spring?
> 
> If so, this is going to have some interesting side effects where fall and spring sports conflict for some athletes _*and especially in smaller schools.*_
> It may be the case some smaller schools will not be able to field teams in the spring with so many sports offered concurrently.
> Hopefully this is only for one year......hopefully.



The newest guidance now states that the delay of fall sports will be until September 21st, with no championships to be played.  If the season has to be cancelled due to Covid considerations, they will play on a condensed schedule as follows:

The Condensed Season plan would entail the following, with the stipulated dates being tentative
 Season I (Winter Sports) 
Dates: Jan. 4-Mar. 13 (Week 27-36) 10 Weeks 
*Note: tentative dates Sports: basketball (girls & boys), bowling (girls & boys), gymnastics, ice hockey (girls & boys), indoor track & field (girls & boys), skiing (girls & boys), swimming (boys), *wrestling, *competitive cheer. * Because of high risk nature of wrestling and competitive cheer, sports may have to be moved to Season II or season III. 

Season II (Fall Sports) Dates: Mar. 1-May 8 (Week 35-44) 10 Weeks 
*Note: tentative dates Sports: football, cross country (girls & boys), field hockey, soccer (girls & boys), swimming (girls), volleyball (girls & boys), Unified bowling. 
Note: Weather will have an impact upon outdoor sports in some parts of the state in March and potentially early April. Girls Tennis moved to Season III. 

Season III (Spring Sports) Dates: Apr. 5-Jun. 12 (Week 40-49) 10 Weeks
 *Note: tentative dates Sports: baseball, softball, golf (girls & boys), lacrosse (girls & boys), tennis (girls & boys), outdoor track & field (girls & boys), Unified basketball.

Here is the link to the document:


			http://nysphsaa.org/Portals/0/COVID%2019/COVID%20Task%20Force%20Meeting%20PR%20071620%20FINAL.pdf


----------



## geekette

Cornell said:


> Because of our school development (my kid being able to be in school remotely as she sees fit) AND the fact that I can work remotely, too....I am turning lemons into LEMONADE.
> 
> This exhausted, beleaguered mother has made the executive decision that we (me, the teen, and the dog) are going to pack up the car this fall.  Rent a VRBO somewhere and work/school in a new location for a change of scenery.  We are usually not road trip type of girls, but could be fun!



You might find another family to swap with.  Before AirBnB, there was Home Exchange.  Could keep it on the cheap for both of you.  I don't know how likely, but, people don't seem to want to be where they've been for months.  

I think it would be a hoot to do periodic Zoom meets and see my own walls and furnishings...

I was very briefly tempted to get a job just to do the Barbados for a year thing...   would be somewhat of a 'study abroad' for your daughter.


----------



## bogey21

bbodb1 said:


> If so, this is going to have some interesting side effects where fall and spring sports conflict for some athletes _*and especially in smaller schools.*_



I went to a large HS and was able to participate in baseball and track concurrently.  But except working on relay exchanges I was able to pretty much train for track on my own.  If there was a conflict between a baseball game and a track meet, the agreement was that the track meet would have precedence.  When team sports overlapped like the end of the football season and the start of the basketball season we were required to stay with the sport that was finishing up...

George


----------



## beejaybeeohio

I just checked the website for the NE Ohio district where I spent most of my career. For substitue teachers, the daily rate is $105 which equates to $15/hour but after 51 days of subbing the rate goes up to $115!!

I wasn't aware of the tax situation that led to some districts/states resorting to contracted service providers as subs. That is a sorry way IMHO of staffing a classroom when the teacher is out - who knows what caliber educator will be sent to cover? When the district maintains a sub list, the absent teacher can request a specific sub (or request not to have a specific sub). If a sub doesn't meet muster, he will be ignored by the district. Much better for the students! As for the contracted sub, she will likely be walking in cold to most of her teaching situations depending on how the agency assigns its subs.


----------



## PigsDad

bogey21 said:


> I went to a large HS and was able to participate in baseball and track concurrently.  But except working on relay exchanges I was able to pretty much train for track on my own.  If there was a conflict between a baseball game and a track meet, the agreement was that the track meet would have precedence.  When team sports overlapped like the end of the football season and the start of the basketball season we were required to stay with the sport that was finishing up...


I'll tell you that things have changes since you and I went to HS, and it is sad.  Now, so many kids are pressured to really focus on a single sport.  Not a single sport _per season_, a single sport.  For example, if you want to play basketball, you are expected to play Club basketball in the summer at a minimum, then there are "optional" workouts / open court during the fall.  But of course they are not truly optional -- unless you are an absolutely exceptional player, all those who make the tryout cuts for winter basketball season are taken from the pool of those who attended the fall workouts / open courts.

It is similar for other sports.  And not just for traditional sports.  Take the case of my daughter:  her main sport is Fastpitch Softball.  In middle school, she enjoyed playing softball, basketball, and was in band.  When she moved to high school, softball season was in the fall but when she went to register for fall classes, she was told she had to choose between playing HS softball or *band*!  In her school, if you were in band, you were expected to be in marching band as well, and fall was the season for the marching band competitions.  Tried to talk to the director, but he would not budge.  She loved playing tuba, but had to give it up to play softball.  And then, of course, since she was playing softball in the fall, she couldn't attend the optional basketball workouts, so she was at a major disadvantage for basketball in the winter.

It is so sad how each coach expects kids to be completely dedicated to their sport, and _only _their sport these days.  Of course there are exceptions, but this is the major trend unfortunately.

Kurt


----------



## bogey21

You are absolutely correct.  My Son was excellent at both basketball and baseball.  He had to make a choice.  He chose basketball and was consumed by it year round.  Traveling with his AAU team took up his entire Summer.  If he had chosen baseball he would have had to play Winter baseball (we live in Texas).  We often wonder what would have happened if he had chosen baseball...

George


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## Ken555

I haven’t been keeping current with this, or other, threads (which, fwiw, is actually quite refreshing). 

The NYT has an article today about outdoor classes in the past. Has this been proposed for this year? If not, why not?









						Schools Beat Earlier Plagues With Outdoor Classes. We Should, Too. (Published 2020)
					

A century ago, children in New York City attended classes during a pandemic. It seemed to work.




					www.nytimes.com
				





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## ilene13

beejaybeeohio said:


> Post-retirement from the public schools I have worked at for-profit charter elementary and high schools. Given that those schools did not hire subs, it might be a safer bet for parents to look into sending their kids to one of those.
> 
> During my long career in a public school system, substitute teachers seemed to be a dying breed. I suspect that the majority of teachers on the sub list would think long and hard before accepting an assignment due to Covid concerns.
> 
> I currently am 7 hours weekly at a hybrid high school (on-line classes with an in-person teacher) for 16-22 year olds, who are high risk for not graduating. The management company has provided extensive guidelines for the upcoming school year which including returning to closure should Covid emerge in students or staff. When our gov. closed schools in March, students were permitted to make appointments with their subject teachers to assist with any difficulties they encountered working online. This actually worked better for most students since they did not have the drama distractions of in-person attendance.
> 
> However, many of our students are dropouts from wholly online schools. They've reported that it was too easy to put off logging in to class, help was not available when needed and, if on an IEP, it was not fully implemented.
> 
> While online learning is a sane solution for students and teachers during Covid, our priority as a country should be doing everything possible to be able to reopen our schools so there is minimal risk for contracting the illness.


I was in a district of 17 high schools and 68 elementary schools.  There are hundreds of subs called in daily--they are not a dying breed in NYS!!!  The charter schools in our area also use substitutes!


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## HudsHut

Hi Laura:
I read with interest your description of your school district's plan. I would love to see it, if you don't mind sharing it.
Our son will also be a senior this year. The school district  has stated that they will be starting off with online learning. They were leaning toward hybrid until our Governor ordered all schools to start online. I wasn't thrilled about hybrid (2 days in school), but I'd take it over full remote.

Cheers,
Maria
javanite {at} yahoo {dot} com


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## DeniseM

My county has the worst C19 infection rate in CA - more than twice the rate allowed to reopen schools. Wednesday the positive test rate was 47%, and the rolling 14 day rate is about 20%.  My daughter, who is a teacher, doesn't think they will be able to open all year. Our county's leadership has not been supportive of prevention methods, so I suspect she's right.


----------



## mdurette

Cornell said:


> Because of our school development (my kid being able to be in school remotely as she sees fit) AND the fact that I can work remotely, too....I am turning lemons into LEMONADE.
> 
> This exhausted, beleaguered mother has made the executive decision that we (me, the teen, and the dog) are going to pack up the car this fall.  Rent a VRBO somewhere and work/school in a new location for a change of scenery.  We are usually not road trip type of girls, but could be fun!




I caught this earlier this week, I can tell you there was a bit of day dreaming about the idea:    Basically Barbados is offering 12 month visa for people that can work from home.   









						Barbados offers remote workers 12-month visas
					

“There's nothing like waking up and seeing the sunshine," the Barbados prime minister told NBC News.




					www.nbcnews.com


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## Luanne

I just found out that the private schools in our area came up with their own plan for school openings.  It appears they planned to open fully next month. That was until the district they sit in announced they would be 100% online when schools open.  I don't know if this means private schools must comply with the local district, or if they're just taking another look.


----------



## Ken555

Ken555 said:


> I haven’t been keeping current with this, or other, threads (which, fwiw, is actually quite refreshing).
> 
> The NYT has an article today about outdoor classes in the past. Has this been proposed for this year? If not, why not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Schools Beat Earlier Plagues With Outdoor Classes. We Should, Too. (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> A century ago, children in New York City attended classes during a pandemic. It seemed to work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



Follow-up on my earlier post, today in California:



> Gov. Gavin Newsom said Monday that hair salons and barbershops could offer services outdoors during the COVID-19 pandemic.











						Need a trim? Newsom allows haircuts, salon services to resume outdoors amid coronavirus
					

California Gov. Gavin Newsom says salons and barbershops can offer personal cares services, as long as they do it outdoors.




					www.latimes.com
				




Again, why can't we do this for schools?


----------



## Brett

Ken555 said:


> Follow-up on my earlier post, today in California:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Need a trim? Newsom allows haircuts, salon services to resume outdoors amid coronavirus
> 
> 
> California Gov. Gavin Newsom says salons and barbershops can offer personal cares services, as long as they do it outdoors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.latimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, why can't we do this for schools?



probably could hold classes outside but it might get a little cold in the northern states


----------



## Ken555

Brett said:


> probably could hold classes outside but it might get a little cold in the northern states



Read the NYT article. View the pictures. Are we so lazy these days that we can't do what was done over 100 years ago...and use a blanket and jacket?

ETA: we could even setup open tents to protect again snow, etc.


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## bbodb1

Ken555 said:


> Again, why can't we do this for schools?



It's not that I am against the idea of outdoor learning (especially when it beats the alternative), but among the issues to address, these come to mind immediately:

Physical space - there may not be all that many areas that are practical for outdoor teaching.  Direct sun?  The elements?  The birds?  The bugs?  (Although science classes may be a lot more interesting...)
Rest rooms?  Moving kids back / forth to rest rooms..
Keeping kids physically in check (i.e. not wandering off).
Where / what to sit on?  How to do written work...
Essential communications within the school (office, nurse, etc)
Students who leave class for services - how to get them to / from those services?
I like the idea you are suggesting here and my points are _*not*_ meant to stop the idea, but there are definitely some things to consider (and I speak from an elementary school POV here). Middle school (and beyond) would have more security concerns I would think.


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## Ken555

bbodb1 said:


> It's not that I am against the idea of outdoor learning (especially when it beats the alternative), but among the issues to address, these come to mind immediately:
> 
> Physical space - there may not be all that many areas that are practical for outdoor teaching.  Direct sun?  The elements?  The birds?  The bugs?  (Although science classes may be a lot more interesting...)
> Rest rooms?  Moving kids back / forth to rest rooms..
> Keeping kids physically in check (i.e. not wandering off).
> Where / what to sit on?  How to do written work...
> Essential communications within the school (office, nurse, etc)
> Students who leave class for services - how to get them to / from those services?
> I like the idea you are suggesting here and my points are _*not*_ meant to stop the idea, but there are definitely some things to consider (and I speak from an elementary school POV here). Middle school (and beyond) would have more security concerns I would think.



Please read the NYT article. The pictures show how it was done over 100 years ago. I'm sure we can improve upon it. 

I'm just surprised that after 200+ posts in this thread alone this suggestion wasn't mentioned. If so, I missed it. Why can't we think outside the box (literally, in this case)?


----------



## geekette

Ken555 said:


> Read the NYT article. View the pictures. Are we so lazy these days that we can't do what was done over 100 years ago...and use a blanket and jacket?
> 
> ETA: we could even setup open tents to protect again snow, etc.


are we so lazy?  yes, probably.  Actually, I'd say we are "softer" than our ancestors.  We are accustomed to Comfort.  

I have to say that wearing jacket and blanket makes it hard to work.  I can say that from office dwelling with AC below my tolerance.  Once my hands are cold, I'm cold.   putting on a fleece jacket, putting a blanket over my legs, seems like a solution, but does not remove distraction of actually being cold.

The reverse problem, too, of way too hot.  Kids and teachers shouldn't have to risk heat stroke.   

that said, I do hope there will be innovative outdoor solutions.


----------



## Ken555

geekette said:


> are we so lazy? yes, probably. Actually, I'd say we are "softer" than our ancestors. We are accustomed to Comfort.
> 
> I have to say that wearing jacket and blanket makes it hard to work. I can say that from office dwelling with AC below my tolerance. Once my hands are cold, I'm cold. putting on a fleece jacket, putting a blanket over my legs, seems like a solution, but does not remove distraction of actually being cold.
> 
> The reverse problem, too, of way too hot. Kids and teachers shouldn't have to risk heat stroke.
> 
> that said, I do hope there will be innovative outdoor solutions.



These are all solvable issues. With all the noise and complaints about distance learning and closing of schools, I would have thought a reasonable solution like outdoor classes would be most welcome. 


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## bbodb1

Ken555 said:


> Read the NYT article. View the pictures. Are we so lazy these days that we can't do what was done over 100 years ago...and use a blanket and jacket?
> 
> ETA: we could even setup open tents to protect again snow, etc.


Well, right off I can see they are using a ferry boat as a classroom.  Not the worst idea, but I do not see any flotation devices on these kids.

Look, I don't want to sit here and just nit pick the idea to death.  Outdoor learning certainly could work but look at the differences in education and safety requirements some 100 years later.  Our schools need to be redesigned and rethought - I am in agreement with those thoughts. 

The best way to see if this works would be to implement in somewhere - in small scale - first.  Someone (well, some district) has to be the guinea pig here (so to speak).  Ideally, it should be a school (or district) in the north 1/3 of the U.S. in order to avoid heat (although this point gets back to something that infuriates me about school in the south - namely we start way too early - mid August - right in the middle of the worst heat of the year).


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## Ken555

bbodb1 said:


> Well, right off I can see they are using a ferry boat as a classroom. Not the worst idea, but I do not see any flotation devices on these kids.



Really? That’s your comment about this *example* of what was down over 100 years ago?



> Look, I don't want to sit here and just nit pick the idea to death.



Why should this thread be any different? 



> Outdoor learning certainly could work but look at the differences in education and safety requirements some 100 years later. Our schools need to be redesigned and rethought - I am in agreement with those thoughts.
> 
> The best way to see if this works would be to implement in somewhere - in small scale - first. Someone (well, some district) has to be the guinea pig here (so to speak). Ideally, it should be a school (or district) in the north 1/3 of the U.S. in order to avoid heat (although this point gets back to something that infuriates me about school in the south - namely we start way too early - mid August - right in the middle of the worst heat of the year).



Ok, good. So the CONCEPT is sound. You agree with it. Sure, there are issues to resolve. What is frustrating is that here we are months into this pandemic, it’s obvious that schools would be significantly impacted by this, and the decision by many is either to hope that one day the virus will magically disappear or that schools must be closed. There’s been almost no compromise, no innovative solution, nothing..that I’ve seen. 

I’m certain beyond doubt that we can find solutions to the issues of holding classes outdoors. I had numerous classes outdoors, and they were great (of course we didn’t do much when it was snowing...but we could put up tents...). Naturally we have some constraints due to the current situation, some of which have been mentioned, but really... my point was not so much why we aren’t doing this but why we haven’t been discussing it. 


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## Cornell

I'm back in this discussion.  My elation over our school district's plans has been taken away.  The teacher union's backlash was swift & opposed.  Here in IL , most of the announcements of the high school plans (hybrid or whatever) are now being walked back.  I think it is VERY unlikely that our high schools will be open in Aug.  The teachers unions are arguing that no in person learning is safe for them, no matter what protocols are put into place. It's extremely discouraging . 

My hope is that if school is done virtually that the teachers have to do their instruction from their classrooms, and not their kitchen counters.


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> My hope is that if school is done virtually that the teachers have to do their instruction from their classrooms, and not their kitchen counters.



Why?

If you can work from home, why can’t they?


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## Cornell

@Ken555 Because last spring my kid would be in class with some of her teachers with their kids in the background, making appearances on video, etc.  I think it's unprofessional and distracting.

I also think if the teacher is in the classroom it sets a certain tone for the student of "this is serious / we are in school".


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## Ken555

Cornell said:


> @Ken555 Because last spring my kid would be in class with some of her teachers with their kids in the background, making appearances on video, etc. I think it's unprofessional and distracting.
> 
> I also think if the teacher is in the classroom it sets a certain tone for the student of "this is serious / we are in school".



I interpret your comment as requesting that teachers be professional. I think that’s reasonable. That does not exclude their ability to performing their job from home just like many of us are doing these days.


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## geekette

Ken555 said:


> These are all solvable issues. With all the noise and complaints about distance learning and closing of schools, I would have thought a reasonable solution like outdoor classes would be most welcome.


Not crapping on your ideas.   I don't have a horse in this race.  Just feeling like if I didn't think it was something that I could do, I couldn't see kids being able to.  

Solving temperature issues is likely getting right back to enclosed space.  I just don't see herding kids into tents with inches  of snow on the ground.   There would need to be radiant heat or wet shoes would have cold wet feet all day.  I don't know how practical the grids under a floor would be, especially if a temp structure.   I'm not sure I'd want to use my laptop in a consistently humid space, either, another use of AC.   

We get tornadoes here, you can't leave kids in a tent for those.  Aside from driving rain entering the tent, it could blow away or collapse.  Regardless, it is no protection from the elements. Which vary around the country.  Consistently mild weather areas could pull it off far easier than those areas that have extreme temps or events.


----------



## geekette

Ken555 said:


> Really? That’s your comment about this *example* of what was down over 100 years ago?
> 
> 
> 
> Why should this thread be any different?
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, good. So the CONCEPT is sound. You agree with it. Sure, there are issues to resolve. What is frustrating is that here we are months into this pandemic, it’s obvious that schools would be significantly impacted by this, and the decision by many is either to hope that one day the virus will magically disappear or that schools must be closed. There’s been almost no compromise, no innovative solution, nothing..that I’ve seen.
> 
> I’m certain beyond doubt that we can find solutions to the issues of holding classes outdoors. I had numerous classes outdoors, and they were great (of course we didn’t do much when it was snowing...but we could put up tents...). Naturally we have some constraints due to the current situation, some of which have been mentioned, but really... my point was not so much why we aren’t doing this but why we haven’t been discussing it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I think it has been discussed.  Plenty.   One of the problems is , where do the schools get the money to do any of this?


----------



## Cornell

I can assure you that the teachers would never agree to teaching outdoors.


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## geekette

Ken555 said:


> I interpret your comment as requesting that teachers be professional. I think that’s reasonable. That does not exclude their ability to performing their job from home just like many of us are doing these days.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yeah.  Agreed.  Once you drag the teachers into buildings, you drag the others back in, too.  there is no reason that they must be in the classroom.  

We don't have ideal conditions, lack of professionalism is way down my list of big problems to solve.


----------



## Ken555

geekette said:


> I think it has been discussed. Plenty. One of the problems is , where do the schools get the money to do any of this?



Really? Sorry, I haven’t seen those comments. But as it previously wrote, I haven’t read this entire thread.


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## Luanne

Cornell said:


> I can assure you that the teachers would never agree to teaching outdoors.


I remember in college some professors holding classes outside.  But that wasn't an every day thing.

It would be interesting to see how actual teachers would feel about teaching outdoors.  There doesn't appear to be much, or any, information about that.


----------



## Ken555

Apparently Gov Newsom is open to the concept of outdoor classes.



> Asked about adjusting school guidelines that might allow for outdoor classrooms, Newsom said he was open to considering that in counties that come off the state’s watch list.











						California Coronavirus Update: Governor Gavin Newsom Relaxes Some Workplace Guidelines, Announces New Testing Method
					

California Governor Gavin Newsom said at his Monday press conference that the state was adjusting some of the workplace closure guidelines it issued last week, specifically those around hair salons and barbershops and the "personal care services industry." The governor said he had wanted to make...




					www.yahoo.com
				





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## Ken555

Luanne said:


> I remember in college some professors holding classes outside. But that wasn't an every day thing.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how actual teachers would feel about teaching outdoors. There doesn't appear to be much, or any, information about that.



Yup, my college also had some classes outdoors. And my high school. And my middle school... 


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## geekette

Ken555 said:


> Really? Sorry, I haven’t seen those comments. But as it previously wrote, I haven’t read this entire thread.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Oh, you're talking about Tug Board, vs what is happening in all of our communities.  I haven't followed all the tug school stuff closely, but certainly some posters have revealed their local plans.


----------



## geekette

Ken555 said:


> Yup, my college also had some classes outdoors. And my high school. And my middle school...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Not here ever.  It definitely depends on local conditions.  Ours isn't suitable except some days of the year, which aren't known until they are imminent.  

Perhaps there will be significant movement by a clever designer to accommodate the warm weather areas (the study pavillion!) but they would have to be extremely clever to deal with weather elsewhere.


----------



## Chrispee

My wife teaches grade 7 and when she returned to the classroom in June she went 100% outdoors. Her school is adjacent to a huge forest park with access to beaches as well so she was able to run a robust curriculum. We live in Vancouver, and our June weather is the definition of mild climate.

On the other hand I’m responsible for setting up summer programs at a school and quickly nixed the idea of running full outdoor programs. Just the mosquitos and sun exposure would have made it unfeasible.  November through February, forget about it. Tents for 500-2000?  May as well be inside. I guarantee most/all school boards considered this option and quickly ruled it out. Maybe California, New Mexico etc pondered it longer than others though?


----------



## bbodb1

Chrispee said:


> My wife teaches grade 7 and when she returned to the classroom in June she went 100% outdoors. Her school is adjacent to a huge forest park with access to beaches as well so she was able to run a robust curriculum. We live in Vancouver, and our June weather is the definition of mild climate.
> 
> On the other hand I’m responsible for setting up summer programs at a school and quickly nixed the idea of running full outdoor programs. Just the mosquitos and sun exposure would have made it unfeasible.  November through February, forget about it. Tents for 500-2000?  May as well be inside. I guarantee most/all school boards considered this option and quickly ruled it out. Maybe California, New Mexico etc pondered it longer than others though?



I believe a lot of valuable skills could be taught within the confines of Stanley Park.  What a treasure!


----------



## Chrispee

bbodb1 said:


> I believe a lot of valuable skills could be taught within the confines of Stanley Park.  What a treasure!



I agree!  Every subject ties into nature, and so many students are deprived of that experience and connection nowadays.


----------



## bbodb1

As I was thinking about this subject today (going back to school), it also is the case we now have a rare opportunity to break away from the Agrarian calendar that has very little applicability to an overwhelming majority of the citizens of this country.


----------



## WVBaker

Ken555 said:


> Yup, my college also had some classes outdoors. And my high school. And my middle school...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Why does this sound like the ever famous comment, kids today are so pampered, when I was a kid .....


----------



## Ken555

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## Cornell

Ken555 said:


> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Is this supposed to be funny ?


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> Is this supposed to be funny ?



Seems it hit a nerve, eh? If it’s not safe for the students, how can it be safe for the staff?


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## Luanne

Ken555 said:


> Seems it hit a nerve, eh? If it’s not safe for the students, how can it be safe for the staff?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I was listening to something today where they were talking about how it might be safer for younger kids to return to the classroom because they are not at as much risk as the older kids.  I kept thinking, what about the teachers and staff who are definitely older.


----------



## Cornell

Ken555 said:


> Seems it hit a nerve, eh? If it’s not safe for the students, how can it be safe for the staff?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I’m not going to debate that bc you and I won’t see eye to eye and that’s fine. 

What I find ridiculous is the implication that a grown adult has “mommy” interfering with their professional life.


----------



## Luanne

Cornell said:


> I’m not going to debate that bc you and I won’t see eye to eye and that’s fine.
> 
> What I find ridiculous is the implication that a grown adult has “mommy” interfering with their professional life.


I saw that posted on  FB.  I took it as humorous.


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> I’m not going to debate that bc you and I won’t see eye to eye and that’s fine.
> 
> What I find ridiculous is the implication that a grown adult has “mommy” interfering with their professional life.



This was obviously intended to provide a little humor, and simultaneously reinforce the serious issue of the staff returning to work. 


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----------



## DannyTS

Why people at Walmart and Costco have go to work and for a lot less money than teachers? Are they not at risk? I never heard you guys saying they should stay home.


----------



## geekette

DannyTS said:


> Why people at Walmart and Costco have go to work and for a lot less money than teachers? Are they not at risk? I never heard you guys saying they should stay home.


This thread is about schools.  Check the retail workers threads.


----------



## DannyTS

geekette said:


> This thread is about schools.  Check the retail workers threads.


Why, teachers are not shopping at Costco? I guess not, it is too risky.

I was talking to the owner of a pool maintenance company. He told me that the demand has been through the roof this year and that it started early. Some part time employees in previous years  were students. Now he was lucky, they are teachers and he could hire them full time because they were not working!


----------



## cman

The bottom line is that most schools will be fine with reopening. However, there are some that should not. If the infection rate and percent of those testing positive is increasing in a county, they shouldn't reopen. The good news is that for about 90% of the counties in the country, they don't fall into that category. Reopening schools should be a local decision based on science. I live in Texas. We're one of those hotspot states. The majority of our cases are in the metropolitan areas, but we also have some counties that have not recorded a single case. What since would it make for those counties to not reopen their schools? Now, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio and our other large metro areas is a different story. Cases are increasing in those areas. The state was pushing for all school districts to reopen, but the larger districts have successfully pushed back. Looks like the plan for them is to plan for in person instruction a month later in September.


----------



## bbodb1

Well, CNN seems to be throwing in the towel.









						Face it. Most kids are not going to school next month | CNN Politics
					

This might be the most obvious thing in the world, but parents need to come to grips with the fact that their kids probably aren't going to be in classrooms this fall.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## SteelerGal

After the CA announced that all schools would open VL only, on Mondays CA DOE webinar, we learned there is a elementary school waiver.   So we are waiting to see if our SD will apply for the waiver. We know private schools will and that will put our children at a disadvantage.  So many parents are creating Pandemic Pods or micro schools.  So I feel that CA SD who can open will try to.  Especially in those SD where parents can afford other options.
For my family, I will be more than willing to send my SN children and keep my GE kids home.  Right now  schools still do not know how to provide Services for children w/ IEPs.


----------



## Rolltydr

Luanne said:


> I saw that posted on  FB.  I took it as humorous.


Yes, because it is.


----------



## DannyTS

Can doctors and nurses opt out?


----------



## geekette

DannyTS said:


> Can doctors and nurses opt out?


of what?

anyone can quit their job, if that's what you mean?


----------



## DannyTS

I did not find any jokes about doctors or nurses opting out because of Covid so I am going to post what I found


----------



## Luanne

Since this is a thread about *schools* opening, I'm going to limit my posts to schools.  

Our governor announced today that all schools will be online only until Labor Day.  After that, they could go to a hybrid model.  She also mentioned a few exceptions, which was interesting as I hadn't heard about any exceptions.  These exceptions are one on one with special needs students and K-3 with a maximum of 5 students per teacher.  They are basing this on the success of the Early Childhood Education Program.  The children who would participate would be based on those who had the greatest need.  I haven't seen any details, just heard what the governor said.


----------



## GregT

All,

I may have missed this discussion already -- what has been the TUG view on Pandemic Pods?

We are considering one here -- hiring a private teacher to instruct a group of 6+ high school sophomores.  We are still working on details (is it a tutor to supplement the basically worthless distance learning, or is it true home schooling, which is challenging to ensure we meet the academic requirements.)  Not sure yet what we will do.

My primary concern for Jack is not the academic advancement, it is to prevent social deterioration.   Depression and anxiety have been issues for him historically and another year of distance learning can only exacerbate this.  We are also considering establishing a surrogate class room for his classmates and inviting a number of class mates to come (there are only 22 sophomores in the entire class -- it's a tiny school -- with outdoor classrooms -- in San Diego -- but it's shut down).  

I recognize that Jack has a significant advantage because we can do this -- and I read about people who believe Pandemic Pods exacerbate inequality, but I worry about my son's mental well-being and I have the means to do something about it.  Is that wrong??    

No good answers here....tough stuff....

Best,

Greg


----------



## geekette

...I worry about my son's mental well-being and I have the means to do something about it.  Is that wrong?? 

this is not wrong.  

I think pods can be very good.   An outdoor classroom could be most anywhere, including a park pavillion.   doesn't have to be the same place every time, either, and the session could start with 10 minutes of grounds exploration.   

Do what you can to help propel your kids into adulthood.  Crap is weird right now, help him manage that, and hopefully become strong enough in these pandemic days to easily handle most anything that life throws at him during his future decades.   It seems to me that the time to try unusual arrangements is right now, because nothing is unusual because everything is unusual.


----------



## Cornell

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> I may have missed this discussion already -- what has been the TUG view on Pandemic Pods?
> 
> We are considering one here -- hiring a private teacher to instruct a group of 6+ high school sophomores.  We are still working on details (is it a tutor to supplement the basically worthless distance learning, or is it true home schooling, which is challenging to ensure we meet the academic requirements.)  Not sure yet what we will do.
> 
> My primary concern for Jack is not the academic advancement, it is to prevent social deterioration.   Depression and anxiety have been issues for him historically and another year of distance learning can only exacerbate this.  We are also considering establishing a surrogate class room for his classmates and inviting a number of class mates to come (there are only 22 sophomores in the entire class -- it's a tiny school -- with outdoor classrooms -- in San Diego -- but it's shut down).
> 
> I recognize that Jack has a significant advantage because we can do this -- and I read about people who believe Pandemic Pods exacerbate inequality, but I worry about my son's mental well-being and I have the means to do something about it.  Is that wrong??
> 
> No good answers here....tough stuff....
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


It is NOT wrong.  I, too, am sick about how much the lack of schools are going to disproportionately hurt a swath of kids.

I have tossed around this "pod" idea too, but the problem we are having in IL is that the local school districts are screwing around so much with NOT making official decisions that we are in this awful holding pattern. And our governor keeps dangling over the public's heads that he might just decide to turn all school into remote learning at any point this fall.

It is a complete disaster.


----------



## DannyTS

They have to listen to the science. From the CDC guidance:

The best available evidence indicates if children become infected, they are far less likely to suffer severe symptoms.[1],[2],[3] Death rates among school-aged children are much lower than among adults. At the same time, the harms attributed to closed schools on the social, emotional, and behavioral health, economic well-being, and academic achievement of children, in both the short- and long-term, are well-known and significant.

*COVID-19 and Children*
The best available evidence indicates that COVID-19 poses relatively low risks to school-aged children.  Children appear to be at lower risk for contracting COVID-19 compared to adults.  To put this in perspective, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), as of July 17, 2020, the United States reported that children and adolescents under 18 years old account for under 7 percent of COVID-19 cases and less than 0.1 percent of COVID-19-related deaths.[5]  Although relatively rare, flu-related deaths in children occur every year. 

*Educational Instruction*
Extended school closure is harmful to children. 











						Communities, Schools, Workplaces, & Events
					

Cleaning and Disinfecting: Everyday steps, when someone is sick, and considerations for employers.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## elaine

My kids are now in college. If they were in HS we’d be doing a neighborhood pandemic pod Coop or homeschooling with neighbors joining: me teaching English/history, DH bio/chemistry, Kahn academy for math. We’d hire a foreign language teacher.  If I had a jr/Sr, I’d try to see about getting dual enrollment via online community college. 
My boss has 5/8 yr olds. Their neighbors are planning to hire a now online college student to tutor their pod.


----------



## WVBaker

*CDC emphasizes reopening schools in new guidance that contradicts past recommendations*

The Importance of Reopening America’s Schools this Fall









						Communities, Schools, Workplaces, & Events
					

Cleaning and Disinfecting: Everyday steps, when someone is sick, and considerations for employers.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## Cornell

We have now reached "comedy of the absurd" levels of school options this fall...

One of the elementary school districts hear me presented an all virtual learning plan.  Pushback from parents , especially those who have working parents and can't be home all day w/their child.  

So the latest plan:


School district encouraging any student who can stay home, to stay home
Teachers will teach from home, not from classroom
School will be OPEN for students who cannot be at home to do their "virtual learning" from school  - yet these are young children so they won't be at school alone, there will be adult supervision.


----------



## WVBaker

Perhaps when the experts flip the coin again, it'll change. I can see it now, you call it, no you call it, heads or tails?


----------



## Brett

over the past three weeks, there has been nothing but bad news in the region’s rising case numbers, positive test rates and hospitalizations, particularly among younger age groups. The recent trends are complicating school boards’ options as they face a deadline to finalize their fall plans.

In Hampton Roads, where the school year starts after Labor Day, most districts are still waiting to make their final decision. Only Chesapeake has announced a plan, with the school board saying earlier this month that families could choose between in-person or virtual instruction. But even that plan will still depend on how much on-campus instruction will be permitted by state health guidelines.

https://www.pilotonline.com/news/ed...0200717-5zvconxdozakpnqiw5gxo766ri-story.html


----------



## bbodb1

WVBaker said:


> Perhaps when the experts flip the coin again, it'll change. I can see it now, you call it, no you call it, heads or tails?



And it ends up like this:


----------



## Luanne

And I'll say it again.  It doesn't matter what WE post here, what studies are quoted.  The states, and individual school districts, are going to formulate their own plans.  Those with school age children are unhappy, teachers are unhappy, and those of us who aren't personally impacted are unhappy as well.


----------



## DannyTS

Luanne said:


> Since this is a thread about *schools* opening, I'm going to limit my posts to schools.




Although it was pretty obvious, just in case some will want to pretend it was not  clear to them, I was talking about doctors only to draw contrast to teachers. Many professions have gone back to work on site (or never stopped working like the doctors) but for the teachers' unions it is too "risky" despite the CDC recommendation. You can bet the teachers benefit (like everyone else) from all those businesses and services being open and you can meet them at Costco, Walmart and at the doctor's office. Some are even taking a second job on the side.

The schools should have opened in May like in many countries in Europe but they claimed it was "too soon". It was so predictable that  we were going to have the same discussion in the fall. I think the teachers are going to do a lot of damage to the previously good reputation of the education system and to the profession in particular. A lot of parents feel like they have no choice but to go to work and that the teachers are playing games.


----------



## WVBaker

Luanne said:


> And I'll say it again.  It doesn't matter what WE post here, what studies are quoted.  The states, and individual school districts, are going to formulate their own plans.  Those with school age children are unhappy, teachers are unhappy, and those of us who aren't personally impacted are unhappy as well.



That may be true but, it's always interesting to watch the minds of science, change their minds.


----------



## geekette

DannyTS said:


> Although it was pretty obvious, just in case some will want to pretend it was not  clear to them, I was talking about doctors only to draw contrast to teachers. Many professions have gone back to work on site (or never stopped working like the doctors) but for the teachers' unions it is too "risky" despite the CDC recommendation. You can bet the teachers benefit (like everyone else) from all those businesses and services being open and you can meet them at Costco, Walmart and at the doctor's office. Some are even taking a second job on the side.
> 
> The schools should have opened in May like in many countries in Europe but they claimed it was "too soon". It was so predictable that  we were going to have the same discussion in the fall. I think the teachers are going to do a lot of damage to the previously good reputation of the education system and to the profession in particular. A lot of parents feel like they have no choice but to go to work and that the teachers are playing games.


Are you a teacher?  Do you interact with hundreds of children every day in a confined space for your profession? 

A lot of people feel a lot of ways, but that lends no truth to "teachers are playing games".


----------



## Brett

.


----------



## DannyTS

geekette said:


> Are you a teacher?  Do you interact with hundreds of children every day in a confined space for your profession?
> 
> A lot of people feel a lot of ways, but that lends no truth to "teachers are playing games".


To which I will respond: are you a doctor? Do you work at Costo and interact with thousand of people? 

How can teachers in Europe do it? Is it not the same risk for them?


----------



## DannyTS

Brett said:


> View attachment 23964


Bret, based on your graphs are you saying the best time to start the schools was in May? They said it was too soon! It is never a good time for the teachers. Your graphs are wrong by the way, Swden for example did not even close them


----------



## Brett

DannyTS said:


> To which I will respond: are you a doctor? Do you work at Costo and interact with thousand of people?
> 
> How can teachers in Europe do it? Is it not the same risk for them?



how do they do it ................. something about a virus  and federal government responses







In the largest state of Bavaria, for example, schools only reopened for all children on June 15. But even then, some restrictions remained in place, according to the state's government. Students were still taught in smaller groups and classes are staggered, so not all students are physically present at the same time.
Most German schools are now shut for the summer holiday.  (removed link to political article)


----------



## bnoble

Our school district (Ann Arbor Public) announced this week that they believe an all-remote start is the right thing to do. The school board will be voting on it next week. Based on first reading, it is expected to pass (to the point that the district has started communication plans.)









						Ann Arbor Public Schools plans fully virtual start to new school year
					

When classes resume for Ann Arbor Public Schools at the end of August, they will be fully virtual.




					www.mlive.com


----------



## geekette

DannyTS said:


> To which I will respond: are you a doctor? Do you work at Costo and interact with thousand of people?
> 
> How can teachers in Europe do it? Is it not the same risk for them?


No, not at all the same risk in Europe as here.

my profession has nothing to do with it, you started that path, taking a swipe at teachers, thinking their job is like retail or every other job.  hint:  it's not.   They also are not the ones that get to call the shots.


----------



## DannyTS

geekette said:


> No, not at all the same risk in Europe as here.
> 
> my profession has nothing to do with it, you started that path, taking a swipe at teachers, thinking their job is like retail or every other job.  hint:  it's not.   They also are not the ones that get to call the shots.


hint: look at their polls, teachers do not want to go back to school


----------



## geekette

DannyTS said:


> hint: look at their polls, teachers do not want to go back to school


polls??   Yeah, I'm sure that districts are keenly following those ....


----------



## Luanne

geekette said:


> polls??   Yeah, I'm sure that districts are keenly following those ....


And I'm sure if you polled other professions many of them wouldn't have wanted to go back to work either.


----------



## DannyTS

Luanne said:


> And I'm sure if you polled other professions many of them wouldn't have wanted to go back to work either.


They did not poll any other professionals if I am not mistaken. That straightens my point.


----------



## Luanne

DannyTS said:


> They did not poll any other professionals if I am not mistaken. That straightens my point.


That is why I said "if".  Doesn't straighten your point at all, whatever that means.


----------



## pedro47

To reopen or not to reopen schools and colleges.

This is going to be a Mess.


----------



## Chrispee

Doctors are aware that treating the public with infectious diseases is part of their job description, teachers are not.  I will mention that I work in education and I am currently in a school with students in attendance, and I'm happy to be here because we have taken an abundance of safety measures and there is great value for the students that are currently here. 

I don't see how the parallel you are making between doctors and teachers has any merit; teachers should return to work when they are satisfied it will be in a safe enough environment, and because they find the risk acceptable when balanced against the value they are providing to the education and mental health of their students.


----------



## SmithOp

Well if California can allow summer camps I see no reason schools can't reopen.

I was at the beach yesterday and 3 yellow school busses pulled in full of kids to spend a day at surf camp. From Pasadena all the way down to Bolsa Chica.






Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## WVBaker

Chrispee said:


> ... teachers should return to work when they are satisfied it will be in a safe enough environment, and because they find the risk acceptable when balanced against the value they are providing to the education and mental health of their students.



Perhaps that should be the case however, will it ever be?


----------



## bbodb1

pedro47 said:


> To reopen or not to reopen schools and colleges.
> 
> This is going to be a Mess.


...requiring many a Mass...


----------



## Brett

SmithOp said:


> Well if California can allow summer camps I see no reason schools can't reopen.
> 
> I was at the beach yesterday and 3 yellow school busses pulled in full of kids to spend a day at surf camp. From Pasadena all the way down to Bolsa Chica.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk





Luanne said:


> That is why I said "if".  Doesn't straighten your point at all, whatever that means.




yes, schools will eventually re-open - straight or not


----------



## DannyTS

Luanne said:


> That is why I said "if".  Doesn't straighten your point at all, whatever that means.


I meant strengthens, sorry about that. Yes, for sure it does. Most other professions just went back to work. The teacher's unions used the poll both to see what position to take and then they released it to the public as a pressure tactic. If you  believe that this has nothing to do with the teachers and their unions not wanting to go back to school, you have a right to that opinion.


----------



## Ken555

SmithOp said:


> Well if California can allow summer camps I see no reason schools can't reopen.
> 
> I was at the beach yesterday and 3 yellow school busses pulled in full of kids to spend a day at surf camp. From Pasadena all the way down to Bolsa Chica.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk



I know of several camps in Southern California that were prevented from opening. It was my impression all camps in the area were instructed not to open, but I have friends report seeing buses and campers together (at least one report in a residential area). I’m not certain of the exact requirements right now, but it may be that day camps are still permitted (though that would surprise me).



			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
		



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> We have now reached "comedy of the absurd" levels



The true comedy of the absurd is the complete fiasco which got us to this point where we are forced as a nation to even have this discussion about schools.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## bbodb1

Ken555 said:


> The true comedy of the absurd is the complete fiasco which got us to this point where we are forced as a nation to even have this discussion about schools.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



And the source of that comedy is China.  
The comedy of errors that has happened since would reduce Dante' to insanity.  And yes, plenty of open space in those circles to hold all of those responsible.


----------



## jackio

DannyTS said:


> hint: look at their polls, teachers do not want to go back to school


I would not want to go back into a classroom with 30 children who may be asymptomatic carriers, in buildings that may have old and inadequate ventilation, for 6 hours a day.

I am, however, going back to work to see and attend to the needs of ill students and staff members.  I am relying on my precaution skills acquired over the past 30 years of nursing, in addition to PPE, and the support of my administration in trying to adhere to best practice.

I am more worried about the teachers than I am about myself.  And I am 61 years old with a husband who is high risk.


----------



## Brett

bbodb1 said:


> And the source of that comedy is China.
> The comedy of errors that has happened since would reduce Dante' to insanity.  And yes, plenty of open space in those circles to hold all of those responsible.



the "comedy from China" ... if only some people had recognized that the "comedy" was real and not a political hoax
and still believe it's some kind of hoax


----------



## bbodb1

jackio said:


> I would not want to go back into a classroom with 30 children who may be asymptomatic carriers, in buildings that may have old and inadequate ventilation, for 6 hours a day.
> 
> I am, however, going back to work to see and attend to the needs of ill students and staff members.  I am relying on my precaution skills acquired over the past 30 years of nursing, in addition to PPE, and the support of my administration in trying to adhere to best practice.
> 
> I am more worried about the teachers than I am about myself.  And I am 61 years old with a husband who is high risk.



Our school is implementing some preventative measures, but at present is NOT taking any measures to reduce class sizes.  That means social distancing in the classroom is not going to be possible.  Grrr.


----------



## Ken555

bbodb1 said:


> And the source of that comedy is China.
> The comedy of errors that has happened since would reduce Dante' to insanity. And yes, plenty of open space in those circles to hold all of those responsible.



This is how threads get locked. You just couldn’t let it go, eh?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## bbodb1

Ken555 said:


> This is how threads get locked. You just couldn’t let it go, eh?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


#306?


----------



## Ken555

bbodb1 said:


> #306?



Now that’s amusing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## bbodb1

Speaking of this:



jackio said:


> I would not want to go back into a classroom with 30 children who may be asymptomatic carriers, *in buildings that may have old and inadequate ventilation*, for 6 hours a day.



In our case, add to this list the fact that our ducts have not been cleaned since I started working at this location 12 years ago and I really have a bad feeling about this....


----------



## bbodb1

Ken555 said:


> Now that’s amusing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


What you say we just both refrain from going there?
(Unfortunately) there is plenty of other ground to cover around this topic...


----------



## Luanne

I read, or heard, something the other day.  It might have been from our governor's briefing, it might have been on a news show.  The bottom line was, yes kids need to be back in the classroom. But that doesn't mean they need to be back in the classroom right now.


----------



## SteelerGal

SmithOp said:


> Well if California can allow summer camps I see no reason schools can't reopen.
> 
> I was at the beach yesterday and 3 yellow school busses pulled in full of kids to spend a day at surf camp. From Pasadena all the way down to Bolsa Chica.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


This is common in my area.  We no longer go to the beach in Huntington because it’s a hotspot.


----------



## SteelerGal

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> I may have missed this discussion already -- what has been the TUG view on Pandemic Pods?
> 
> We are considering one here -- hiring a private teacher to instruct a group of 6+ high school sophomores.  We are still working on details (is it a tutor to supplement the basically worthless distance learning, or is it true home schooling, which is challenging to ensure we meet the academic requirements.)  Not sure yet what we will do.
> 
> My primary concern for Jack is not the academic advancement, it is to prevent social deterioration.   Depression and anxiety have been issues for him historically and another year of distance learning can only exacerbate this.  We are also considering establishing a surrogate class room for his classmates and inviting a number of class mates to come (there are only 22 sophomores in the entire class -- it's a tiny school -- with outdoor classrooms -- in San Diego -- but it's shut down).
> 
> I recognize that Jack has a significant advantage because we can do this -- and I read about people who believe Pandemic Pods exacerbate inequality, but I worry about my son's mental well-being and I have the means to do something about it.  Is that wrong??
> 
> No good answers here....tough stuff....
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


I am starting a POD because we have 4 elementary age.  DL was a disaster especially for SN children.  So we are actively pushing for our SD to request a waiver for this small subset as well as our most vulnerable children in need.


----------



## DannyTS

Luanne said:


> I read, or heard, something the other day.  It might have been from our governor's briefing, it might have been on a news show.  The bottom line was, yes kids need to be back in the classroom. But *that doesn't mean they need to be back in the classroom right now.*


When did I hear that before? Oh, I remember, it was April and May 2020


----------



## bbodb1

Brett said:


> that's it - bad ducts + Legionnaires' disease + coronavirus =
> schools will never re-open
> USA is doomed



You read _ahead_ in the book, didn't you, Brett!  

Seriously though, over the last several years, maintenance that should be periodically performed has often been reduced (to the point of elimination) as districts outsource their janitorial staffs to save a few dollars.  (Dollars that seem to end up in the pockets of administration making hyper-inflated salaries..)  Those of us in public schools can all relate to how fast a stomach bug or flu can move through a school and it seems as if this sort of thing was happening on an increasingly fast basis in the past few years.  

The point here being school districts have been very guilty of reducing the efforts and resources available to keep a reasonably clean environment for students and staff.  That certainly has not helped the current situation...


----------



## DannyTS

SteelerGal said:


> I am starting a POD because we have 4 elementary age.  DL was a disaster especially for SN children.  So we are actively pushing for our SD to request a waiver for this small subset as well as our most vulnerable children in need.


Where are you and GregT going to find a teacher for a POD?


----------



## bbodb1

SteelerGal said:


> I am starting a POD because we have 4 elementary age.  DL was a disaster especially for SN children.  So we are actively pushing for our SD to request a waiver for this small subset as well as our most vulnerable children in need.


Best of luck to you in this @SteelerGal - I can't speak for everyone here, but with as many TUG'gers as it seems having some connection to the education sector, please keep us updated on how this goes (perhaps even it's own thread??)  I'd be glad to point you toward some of the web based resources we are using if that would help....


----------



## WVBaker

bbodb1 said:


> #306?


#309?


----------



## SteelerGal

DannyTS said:


> Where are you and GregT going to find a teacher for a POD?


We are looking for tutors only.  But others are hiring teachers, be retired, on leave, laid off, new teachers, etc.
There’s a FB Group, Pandemic Pods/MicroSchooling, that is helping ppl connect.  Some organizations that help charter and private schools, are offering the same Services to parents.


----------



## SteelerGal

bbodb1 said:


> Best of luck to you in this @SteelerGal - I can't speak for everyone here, but with as many TUG'gers as it seems having some connection to the education sector, please keep us updated on how this goes (perhaps even it's own thread??)  I'd be glad to point you toward some of the web based resources we are using if that would help....


Thank you.  I would love it.  We are fortunate that we have the funds however I know many families who do not.


----------



## Cornell

WVBaker said:


> #309?


#318


----------



## Cornell

At this point I'm encouraging my daughter to:

1) Drop out; and/or
2) Get her GED


----------



## bbodb1

Cornell said:


> At this point I'm encouraging my daughter to:
> 
> 1) Drop out; and/or
> 2) Get her GED


You know what @Cornell...let's run with this for a moment.....

Now IF (and yes, this is a BIG if) your daughter is ready to be done with HS, why not go ahead and get her GED IF she is going to head on to college anyway?  

I'll be back in a bit to expand on this idea.....have to step away for a bit...


----------



## Cornell

bbodb1 said:


> You know what @Cornell...let's run with this for a moment.....
> 
> Now IF (and yes, this is a BIG if) your daughter is ready to be done with HS, why not go ahead and get her GED IF she is going to head on to college anyway?
> 
> I'll be back in a bit to expand on this idea.....have to step away for a bit...


You're an educator - help me with this.  Doesn't GED just scream "I was  a drop out"?  

And she's not ready to be done with high school -- she is being FORCED to be done with high school.


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## Luanne

Cornell said:


> You're an educator - help me with this.  Doesn't GED just scream "I was  a drop out"?
> 
> And she's not ready to be done with high school -- she is being FORCED to be done with high school.


I have a friend in Canada.  One of her dds dropped out of high school (so yes she was a drop out).  At some point she went back and got her GED (or whatever the equivalent is in Canada).  Last I heard she was working on, or had just gotten her PhD.  Of course her case is different than you dd.  She wasn't motivated to stick it through to graduation.  But she's certainly done well.


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## geekette

Cornell said:


> You're an educator - help me with this.  Doesn't GED just scream "I was  a drop out"?


Actually, I think a 2020 GED would scream "I dispensed with high school and moved on".   Her college degree would be quicker, too, so nobody would much care how she finished high school.  

These are funky times.  Since we don't actually know how long we're going to be in the throws of this crap, if it's even a thought to finish HS right now, freaking do it, why drag it on?  Move to next chapter.  

If it turns out to be an issue, well, that's what cover letters are for.   She will have completed high school so I can't imagine why anyone would care.


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## bbodb1

Cornell said:


> And she's not ready to be done with high school -- she is being FORCED to be done with high school.



I understand this - albeit from a different experience.  Allow me a moment for a story. 
After I completed my sophomore year of high school, my family moved over 1,000 miles to a new state due to a job change.  _*At the time, my mindset was pretty much this: *_Whether or not I had much input in that decision, I never really knew but the fact was that I had invested 10 years with a set of friends that I was being asked/forced to leave. The sense of loss with the move was bad enough (i.e. losing connection with those friends) - the sense of loss with respect to what might have been beyond that was even worse. We had some pretty decent teams in a few sports. What might we have won, how would we have done - questions like that were bad enough, but losing contact with those friends was even worse. Some relationships that might have been....who knows?

So we move, and the first year starts going by.  Late in the 1st semester, I realized I had an option I had not considered.  The academic requirements at my new school were much lower than the school I came from and if I took the proper classes in the back half of what was my junior year, I could graduate early.  I did this.  _*Because I really hadn't formed that many meaningful relationships in such a short time frame, I did not (and do not to this day) regret that decision.  *_

I'm sharing this story because I can empathize with the position your daughter now finds herself in - feeling as if something she has been building toward her whole life is suddenly being unfairly ripped away from her.  While the source of the problem for her is different today than mine was all those years ago (a move versus a pandemic), the end result is similar _*there will be a lack of closure, a sense of something started was not seen through to the end*_ that will be a part of her forever.  I wish I could offer her some words that would assuage these feeling but the two score years since this happened to me, I still find myself thinking about what might have been more often than I would thought I would all these years later.   

Something I did NOT realize in my youth was the fragility of relationships as we leave places.  We always have the best of intentions to keep in touch, to stay close but human nature is the longer we are apart from each other, the value of the relationship lessens over time (in most cases).  Might the two years I missed have made a difference?  Might I still be close to some of the friends in my youth I valued?  No one can know.  _*But I wish I had been given the opportunity to decide for myself whether to stay or move*_.

With that in mind, let's address the other part now: 


Cornell said:


> You're an educator - help me with this.  Doesn't GED just scream "I was  a drop out"?



My best answer to this question is as follows - getting a GED puts more weight on what you do next. High school diplomas really do not matter anymore.
And in this case, I think your daughter has a rare opportunity here _*if she wants to pursue the following path.*_

Does your daughter know what she wants to do _*after*_ high school?  
If going to college is what she wants to do _*and*_ she (and you) are convinced this year will be a waste (from the standpoint of not having any meaningful senior year experiences), why not suggest to your daughter to get her GED and start college _*in the fall?*_  If most of the learning is going to be remote this year anyway, why not go ahead and start earning college credit for that work?  If she does this, and graduates _*the college degree*_ becomes the important piece of paper (and it matters not whether she has a HS diploma or a GED).

At the same time - there might be some very good reasons _*NOT* _to pursue this idea.  For example, if there is a class (or two) she was really looking forward to this year OR she needs some additional high school course work to solidify her knowledge in a critical area _*these would be reasons NOT to pursue this idea.  *_Also, given her educational experiences from last year, she may feel this year might be a last chance to hang out with her HS friends (certainly another reason to consider NOT doing this).  And finally, are there any courses she was going to take this year that would allow her a look at a career she might want to pursue?     

I'm putting all of this out there because in this very bad time we are currently in, anything that would allow me to feel more in control of my future would be appreciated.  Your daughter may feel the same way...  

I'll pause there.


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## pedro47

IMHO air filters at home, nursing homes, on cruise ships, at your work place and schools should be change regularly once per months to reduce prolonged inhalation of germs..  This recommendation came from a friend; who was an EPA Specialist some 25 years ago; after a EPA study on the transmission on germs in the workplace. Was this study ever release to the public, I do not know the answer..

I do know that they found asbestos particles in schools ducts & air filters, classroom, cafeteria areas, auditoriums, on aboard naval ships, and in old office buildings. 
.


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## Cornell

@bbodb1 Thank you so much for your kind and thought-provoking words.  My daughter is in such a weird spot b/c it's looking like she will be graduating from a high school without spending the last two years actually there . It's just surreal.  

You make some great points about the GED.  She's so mentally exhausted , I don't know if she has it in her right now to "switch gears" and delve into college this fall.  I may discuss with her this weekend.  Something has happened with her in the past few weeks where I cannot really discuss school with her.  It's become an "off limits" topic and she just shuts down.


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## geekette

Cornell said:


> @bbodb1 Thank you so much for your kind and thought-provoking words.  My daughter is in such a weird spot b/c it's looking like she will be graduating from a high school without spending the last two years actually there . It's just surreal.
> 
> You make some great points about the GED.  She's so mentally exhausted , I don't know if she has it in her right now to "switch gears" and delve into college this fall.  I may discuss with her this weekend.  Something has happened with her in the past few weeks where I cannot really discuss school with her.  It's become an "off limits" topic and she just shuts down.


Don't shoot for fall college start (that's coming too fast!), go for midterm.   Knock off the GED, call HS done.  Go take your months' long trip, both of you decompress Somewhere Else.   

If she could have some time totally Free, the hs monkey off her back, I think that could be beneficial in immediate mental health, but also in taking a lot of time to determine next step.  I am one of those that can take a long time to make a big decision.  It can annoy other people.  However, once I make a decision, it is solid, I am no waffler.   It is easier to process items involved in a decision when my brain isn't cluttered with all that other stuff of life, like deadlines and work I don't want to do.  When things are simple, my gears turn better and faster.

The one thing I would ask if I were taking this leap with her, is find something productive to do.   Sure, loaf for 2 solid weeks.  Then, whatever it is, get started.   Begin a hobby.  Get certified to teach Pilates.  Study history of the area you're visiting.   Volunteer at a nonprofit.  Something.  Anything.  Her choice.  Switch it up as desired.  She could even audit college classes if she wanted to (I could do that free, not sure that is the case everywhere/any more?  I only mention that in case she thinks she isn't yet ready for college - she may find out, oh, this isn't rocket science!  Confidence boosts are always good when in a weird space of life).

This could also be something she could use to jump into college with GED.  Yes, I dropped out to graduate early, and immerse myself in ....   because it always interested me, and now I want to parlay that intense self-study into .... at your school's department of .....    I would of course use words like self development, personal growth, blah blah blah.   I don't honestly think the GED will be an issue, definitely not for a young lady that clearly has a lot going for her and did it strategically vs stupidity of youth that led to stereotypical dropout story.   

Mostly, I'm sorry to hear she is feeling out of sorts.  It's understandable, but I'm sure it's rough to see and not be able to instantly fix any of it.


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## GregT

@Cornell,

I’m so sorry that your daughter is going through this - that all of our children are going through this.   I wish you well and hope that she finds the right path.  You have a very creative idea and I don’t think anyone will consider this class to be a drop-out.    Caroline definitely feels the lack of closure mentioned above.  

Frustratingly, our government seems to favor the advice of epidemiologists and discounts (or ignores) the psychologists and counselors. Tough stuff for these kids - please let us know how it works out.

Best,

Greg


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## Ken555

Alcoa Middle School reports positive coronavirus test after three days of classes



			https://www.thedailytimes.com/news/alcoa-middle-school-reports-positive-coronavirus-test-after-three-days-of-classes/article_445fc610-5a93-5bd9-9f90-b85113d9c7c8.html
		



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Cornell

Ken555 said:


> Alcoa Middle School reports positive coronavirus test after three days of classes
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.thedailytimes.com/news/alcoa-middle-school-reports-positive-coronavirus-test-after-three-days-of-classes/article_445fc610-5a93-5bd9-9f90-b85113d9c7c8.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


....and?


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## Ken555

Alcoa thought they were prepared, too.

—-

Alcoa City Schools reopen on rotating schedule to limit class sizes









						Alcoa City Schools reopen on rotating schedule to limit class sizes
					

ALCOA, Tenn. (WATE) — The Alcoa City Schools District was among the first districts in the country to welcome students back Wednesday. For students with last names beginning with letters from…




					www.wate.com
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ken555

Cornell said:


> ....and?



Really? I need to spell it out for you?

Reopening schools at this time is inevitably going to lead to community spread of the disease.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Cornell

geekette said:


> Don't shoot for fall college start (that's coming too fast!), go for midterm.   Knock off the GED, call HS done.  Go take your months' long trip, both of you decompress Somewhere Else.
> 
> If she could have some time totally Free, the hs monkey off her back, I think that could be beneficial in immediate mental health, but also in taking a lot of time to determine next step.  I am one of those that can take a long time to make a big decision.  It can annoy other people.  However, once I make a decision, it is solid, I am no waffler.   It is easier to process items involved in a decision when my brain isn't cluttered with all that other stuff of life, like deadlines and work I don't want to do.  When things are simple, my gears turn better and faster.
> 
> The one thing I would ask if I were taking this leap with her, is find something productive to do.   Sure, loaf for 2 solid weeks.  Then, whatever it is, get started.   Begin a hobby.  Get certified to teach Pilates.  Study history of the area you're visiting.   Volunteer at a nonprofit.  Something.  Anything.  Her choice.  Switch it up as desired.  She could even audit college classes if she wanted to (I could do that free, not sure that is the case everywhere/any more?  I only mention that in case she thinks she isn't yet ready for college - she may find out, oh, this isn't rocket science!  Confidence boosts are always good when in a weird space of life).
> 
> This could also be something she could use to jump into college with GED.  Yes, I dropped out to graduate early, and immerse myself in ....   because it always interested me, and now I want to parlay that intense self-study into .... at your school's department of .....    I would of course use words like self development, personal growth, blah blah blah.   I don't honestly think the GED will be an issue, definitely not for a young lady that clearly has a lot going for her and did it strategically vs stupidity of youth that led to stereotypical dropout story.
> 
> Mostly, I'm sorry to hear she is feeling out of sorts.  It's understandable, but I'm sure it's rough to see and not be able to instantly fix any of it.


Thank you @geekette - great thoughts & ideas.  Unfortunately I cannot take a month to travel - I have a day job.  This single mom has to pay the bills.  

I am going to float some ideas to her this weekend and see what she has to say.


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## bbodb1

Ken555 said:


> Alcoa Middle School reports positive coronavirus test after three days of classes
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.thedailytimes.com/news/alcoa-middle-school-reports-positive-coronavirus-test-after-three-days-of-classes/article_445fc610-5a93-5bd9-9f90-b85113d9c7c8.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Interestingly enough, this occurred while the school was in the midst of a staggered start with only 20% of the students present.  But from the article:



> ... ACS policy requires children to quarantine for 14 days after exposure to someone with COVID-19, unless they provide a doctor's note or negative test result saying they may return earlier.  *Staff members may continue working in the schools after potential exposure to someone with the coronavirus if the employee has no symptoms, wears a face mask and follows other health protocol*...



That makes zero sense, and pretty much ensures the district is going to have more cases.

_Edit: and puts the at-risk staff members in even more danger..._


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## Ken555

bbodb1 said:


> Interestingly enough, this occurred while the school was in the midst of a staggered start with only 20% of the students present. But from the article:
> 
> 
> 
> That makes zero sense, and pretty much ensures the district is going to have more cases.
> 
> _Edit: and puts the at-risk staff members in even more danger..._



Yup. And this is what happens when the scientists aren’t in charge of medical matters. Expect more of this to occur in the near future.

It’s just sad.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## elaine

Cornell, if your Community college requires a HS diploma, and she can whip out GED requirements for the fall, then I'd do that and start the next semester with CC.  Or if she's in advanced classes now, you might have her get a GED book and study the areas she needs to and do a GED practice test ASAP. She might be able to pass the GED test and start CC in the fall. That is what I'd have done for DD.

Maybe also contact the HS and see if you can work out a deal to go to CC online and get regular HS diploma. Or if they'll set up Dual Enrollment credit for a few basic Cc online classes, and parents pay the CC tuition.
I don't think any employer/college/grad school will care about GED for those during Covid who continue to college and do well. And a simple explanatory sentence that HS during Covid was sabpar online should suffice.


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## Cornell

elaine said:


> Cornell, does your Community college require a HS diploma? And, how close is she to getting a GED? If you need HS diploma, and she can whip out GED requirements for the fall, then I'd do that and start the next semester with CC.
> Maybe also contact the HS and see if you can work out a deal to go to CC online and get regular HS diploma. Or if they'll set up Dual Enrollment credit for a few basic Cc online classes, and parents pay the CC tuition.
> I don't think any employer/college/grad school will care about GED for those during Covid who continue to college and do well. And a simple explanatory sentence that HS during Covid was sabpar online should suffice.


Thank you thank you -- great ideas that I may start looking into.

She has also started filling out the Common & Coalition apps for college and has noticed that they have a place at the beginning where you can indicate any hardships / special circumstances that you have faced b/c of Covid.  She will be utilizing this section of the application.  

She is behind the 8-ball, so to speak, credit wise.  She was an exchange student her junior year .  Should have been in Switzerland until June. Returned mid-march b/c of Covid.  However -- her local high school here in the US won't give her credit for 2nd semester classes b/c she left Switzerland early.  Yet all of her peers got full 2nd semester credit for doing basically nothing either.  She's really gotten a raw deal.


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## elaine

In that case, do the GED and get CC credit. I don't know that GED requires "credits" vs. passing the test. I'd find a practice test online or order a practice book ASAP to find out if just a week or two of studying might suffice for pass the test.
Be aware that some colleges count anyone with more than X credits as a transfer student, not new freshman applicant. I also don't know if classes currently taking when applying "count." I think 9 credits is usually "safe" to still be a freshman. But, check with each the college. It's usually listed online in the admission area.


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## Cornell

elaine said:


> I don't know that GED requires "credits" vs. passing the test. I'd find a practice test online or order a practice book ASAP to find out if just a week or two of studying might suffice for pass the test.


Awesome - I'm on it.

Last comment:  I'm going to a family function today.  My brother-in-law is the president of his teacher's union.  I adore him.  We just texted each other & said "let's not talk about schools today".


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## elaine

for CC, 2 semesters of freshman English is good to bang out at CC. For many colleges, it's essentially online, self-taught anyway (from our CC and also major university). Economics is not bad online either. Pick generic classes that will transfer to most colleges. Look on college website for "transfer equivalency" grid. 
feel free to pm me about best classes, how to use the grid, check professors, etc., if you decide to go that route. elaine


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## Cornell

@elaine i can’t thank you enough . You really have me thinking ... 

We live very close to an excellent comm college


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## geekette

Cornell said:


> Thank you @geekette - great thoughts & ideas.  Unfortunately I cannot take a month to travel - I have a day job.  This single mom has to pay the bills.
> 
> I am going to float some ideas to her this weekend and see what she has to say.


ohhhhh, I thought you were going to remote work from a different place for a while.  sorry about that!


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## Cornell

@geekette  I am going to remote work from a different location for a while . Not a month! And won’t have a ton of day time to explore. I’m super busy at work these days which I am SOOOO happy about. I work in survey research and all of our healthcare clients are doing huge studies to understand the impact of c19. Interesting stuff .


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## SteelerGal

I know our SD has many students who are enrolled in HS and at the local college.  It’s actually a different track and quite common I discovered.  SD created partnerships w/ local CC.


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## Luanne

SteelerGal said:


> I know our SD has many students who are enrolled in HS and at the local college.  It’s actually a different track and quite common I discovered.  SD created partnerships w/ local CC.


Same thing here in Santa Fe at the community college.  Dh had been taking pottery classes there and he said there were usually a couple of students in this program in his classes.  Also I have a friend, who son was not in this particular program, who took several classes at the community college (mostly PE classes) so that he could take more classes at his high school.


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## elaine

Going to CC early can have a lot of benefits. I went early 30+ years ago because I had enough credits to graduate HS and it was actually easier than the harder HS classes.  That semester plus a few summer CC classes allowed me to graduate From college a year early.
So, your DD might get some unexpected lemonade.


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## amycurl

Nothing prepares you better for college than college. 

I have a friend and colleague who runs a "sister" organization to mine in Shanghai. He's been stuck in the States with his family since coming to Atlanta for a work meeting in late Jan. JANUARY.  (He's an American citizen, and was visiting family after the business trip, but had no intention to stay months and months.) Here's what he has to say about the whole school situation, if you are looking for a wider perspective. This is from a FB post he made three days ago:

_Knowing many of my friends are waiting for news about school openings, I though I would post a few links to news/ research/ practices coming out of Asia, where schools began opening in June.

The first is the process that my son's school in Shanghai implemented. They were considered to be one of the best cases, and in the video link you will see what that looked like.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=271409884213971

Second is an article speaking to the fact that two weeks after schools in China opened, they were closed again. This article doesn't speak to the cases found in schools, but in addition to the 100 cases that came into Beijing, there were immediate cases found in the schools. Showing that masks, shields, pointing desks one way, staggering student schedules, and canceling all physical activities, were not enough.
https://www.msn.com/…/covid-19-spread-fastest-b…/ar-BB16V7xm

Next list if from Korea, where a recent study showed that teens/ tweens are more likely to spread the virus than kids under 10, and those over 18. This seems to be a preliminary finding, but if proven through further studies (which are ongoing in China / Hong Kong), then that does not bode well for the reopening of US/ EU schools.
https://www.foxnews.com/…/beijing-closing-schools-colleges-…...

The last is a recent report on the outbreak at the Kanakuk summer camp, in Missouri, where more than 80 kids and staff tested positive during 5 day/ night camp. I haven't seen any followup on the severity of cases, but this certainly speaks to the speed by which the virus is able to spread between students and adults.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/…/998e172e-c22a-11ea-b178-bb…

I know everyone is anxious for this time to pass, but rushing the kids into classrooms is the surest way for them to return to online learning full time. For those interested in some tips & tools of how I have adapted, or on how I am approaching the Sept-Dec term for my 8 year old, feel free to reach out.
I have researched it all!_


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## Cornell

@elaine @bbodb1 @geekette -- thank you all for your comments and thoughts.  You really got the wheels turning.

My daughter and I had a good conversation today.  We are THINKING and hoping that she could possibly pull off being done with high school after Sem 1 this year.  We analyzed her transcript and think it is possible.  A lot has to do with how much credit her high school registrar is going to give her for her Swiss classes.  Nonetheless, if she can pull it off, she will finish high school in December and then can take local classes at our CC this spring and even next summer.  We have a phone meeting scheduled with her HS counselor on Wednesday.  Let's hope this plan works.  If not, we may loop back to the GED idea. 

My daughter is just "done" with high school .  All the wind has been taken out of her sails about being a senior and what it entails.  She has shifted her mindset into "how can I get out of there so I can focus on college".  In a way, I think it's a healthy mindset.  It's better than wallowing in sadness.  I think her Swiss exchange has made her realize that life is so much more than high school.  

Looks like I'll be saving money on prom expense too


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## WinniWoman

elaine said:


> At our (upper middle class) school in VA/DC suburbs, my friend who subbed there and has a HS freshman said she's "400% sure that at least 50% of kids did not log onto school website at all this spring" and her kid only did it because she made a schedule, was home all day to monitor, and checked his work. If that's the course for a school with few low income students, I can't imagine the stats for those with no parent home during the day, not able to monitor, help, etc.? I fear "lost kids, lost year."
> Even with a parent checking, it's not the same. I had 2 kids in HS same time. 1 would have done bare minimum with me checking on him. The other would've been fine and done all work. I vote masks and school. American Academy of Pediatrics is advocating opening schools.




CDC also.


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## elaine

A lot has happened in the 3 weeks since I posted above. I don't know that in person is the best idea currently, given the dramatic rise in Covid. Our school is doing remote for 1st 9 weeks, then deciding. Our school board chair is a Dr. I think that's a wise approach. I think a county by county approach, depending on Covid rate is probably also a good approach. It's a very tough call for a tough issue. Hopefully, vaccine soon.


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## Cornell

Parents' Response To School System Dysfunction Can Usher In New Era Of Innovation
					

Parents are actively learning on their own about the amazing innovations that have been happening that they never knew existed, and that they can deploy themselves to make sure that their kids truly do go back to school, even if it’s different than what it once was.




					www.forbes.com


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## TravelTime

@Cornell If I had a teenager in their junior or senior year of high school, I would take the covid crisis as an opportunity to get into the college of their choice. Since many kids are deferring college and foreign students are not coming back, it should be an opportunity to get in more easily to competitive colleges. I have some friends with a child who is a junior and they see it as an opportunity. I would go with the flow and have them finish high school online and get in as much extracurricular activities and volunteer opportunities as possible so they have a strong college application. I work with teens and that is what they are doing. Don't let your daughter get down and check out of high school. This is too important for her future.


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## Luanne

TravelTime said:


> @Cornell If I had a teenager in their junior or senior year of high school, I would take the covid crisis as an opportunity to get into the college of their choice. Since many kids are deferring college and foreign students are not coming back, it should be an opportunity to get in more easily to competitive colleges. I have some friends with a child who is a junior and they see it as an opportunity. I would go with the flow and have them finish high school online and get in as much extracurricular activities and volunteer opportunities as possible so they have a strong college application. I work with teens and that is what they are doing. Don't let your daughter get down and check out of high school. This is too important for her future.


Are you sure foreign students aren't coming back?  There was talk that their visas would be denied if classes were online, but that decision was change from what I remember hearing. It's very possible that there will be foreign students that won't return, but I would imagine there are those who want to finish out their programs.


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## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> @Cornell If I had a teenager in their junior or senior year of high school, I would take the covid crisis as an opportunity to get into the college of their choice. Since many kids are deferring college and foreign students are not coming back, it should be an opportunity to get in more easily to competitive colleges. I have some friends with a child who is a junior and they see it as an opportunity. I would go with the flow and have them finish high school online and get in as much extracurricular activities and volunteer opportunities as possible so they have a strong college application. I work with teens and that is what they are doing. Don't let your daughter get down and check out of high school. This is too important for her future.



Great advice. I would add that the earlier suggestion of community college is also quite good. For many the college experience has changed dramatically in the last ~20-30 years and community college is now much more acceptable and recommended as the choice. In California, I believe it's still common for many to go to community college for the first two years and then transfer to a State (or UC) school. I'm not sure how it's done in Illinois.

I would try to look upon this as objectively as possible, though that may be very difficult to do at this time. It's a big decision to leave high school early, so take your time.

I studied abroad when I was in high school and, contrary to what I was promised by my local high school, upon my return I was unable to transfer all the credit I had earned. This forced me to make a difficult choice...take another year of high school or limit my college selection options to those who were willing to accept my unique status. I chose to take another year (at an out of state boarding school...), and I don't regret that decision (though I do regret the school I chose for that year). So I understand some of the issues @Cornell is struggling with since her daughter was unable to complete her spring courses and obtain the associated credit. After high school I went to an excellent college and, after taking extra classes and summer school, graduated early (the year I should have graduated had I received the overseas credit). When I look back at that decision, I now regret I rushed college and would have enjoyed another year (I wanted to graduate early for a variety of reasons, though primarily I was concerned about the high cost of school). I don't wish this experience on anyone, especially when it's sudden and without any planning. However, from what I've read so far in this thread there are many good choices and it's hard to go wrong pursuing any of them.


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## bbodb1

How is this going @Cornell?
And most importantly, what thoughts has your daughter expressed?


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## Cornell

Teachers Are Wary of Returning to Class, and Online Instruction Too (Published 2020)
					

Unions are threatening to strike if classrooms reopen, but are also pushing to limit live remote teaching. Their demands will shape pandemic education.




					www.nytimes.com


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## pedro47

To parents. teachers & students please be careful an eleven years old female from Hopewell, VA attended a church function last week in Northern Virginia. Monday she became ill and was tested as positive for COVID-19..


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## bogey21

As of now my Daughter's kids (13, 10 and 7) relatively small Christian School is scheduled for normal in person, on campus classroom school.  Texas is allowing religious affiliated schools to make their own decisions.  The school got the parents, teachers and administration together and they came up with how they plan to handle it...

George


----------



## Luanne




----------



## jackio

My district just released its plan for reopening in September, pending the governor’s approval.
Students will be divided into 2 groups by household. Group A will attend school on Monday and Tuesday. Group B will attend on Thursday and Friday. Virtual learning will be conducted the other 3 days. Wednesday will be for deep cleaning between the groups.
Special Ed students will be in 5 days a week.
With half classes, they can maintain social distancing. Children do not have to wear masks if they are 6 feet away from others. (At their desks)
However if they are 1:1 with the teacher, or in any common area, they must wear a mask. Masks are required on the school bus unless there is a documented medical reason why a mask cannot be worn.
Masks are mandatory for staff.
PE and music classes will have to be modified.
The plan will be re-evaluated each quarter and more frequently as needed.
It certainly isn’t perfect but it is a starting point. I believe many parents will not be comfortable sending their children back in the beginning.


----------



## Luanne

My bff who lives in Brevard County, Florida was telling me about how her two grandsons will be going back.  Their mom (her dd) had to fill out a bunch of paperwork and declare their intentions by the end of this month.  The older son, who is in high school is opting to go back part time as there are classes he will be taking that have to be done in person.  I think he'll be in school part time and at home part time.  The younger son who is 11 is the cautious one and has opted to be fully online.


----------



## Cornell

Well, it's official.  We are home-schooling for my daughter's senior year of HS. In my wildest dreams I never thought we'd be in this position. 

Our school district has yet to finalize their school plans and school starts in 3 weeks.  Families are in limbo. I've been monitoring the school situation closely in IL and practically all of the school districts are going 100% online, so I suspect ours will fall in line, too.  Also , our governor is sending all kinds of signals that he will force all schools to be online vs. leaving it up to the local school districts.

I had an upsetting conversation w/my daughter's school counselor this week.  It was apparent from this conversation that these schools are NOT prepared for online-learning.  I think it's going to be a repeat of spring '21 - which was an absolutely awful experience.

My daughter is now enrolled in a private, online HS (Indiana University HS for those interested) .  They have been teaching in the online space for years and I feel much more comfortable that they know how to execute this vs. our local HS.  I'm honestly mad that I am paying for "private" schooling b/c our local schools are failing (at least failing my standards). 

It's been an awful couple of weeks searching (and crying) for figure out how to get my kid educated & graduated.  I feel a sense of relief that we now have a plan.

Kids who don't have the $$ for this (or parents who will look for alternatives) are going to fall further & further behind.


----------



## Luanne

I wonder if this study will affect any school districts' plans.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/health/coronavirus-children.html


----------



## Cornell

Luanne said:


> I wonder if this study will affect any school districts' plans.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/health/coronavirus-children.html


Possibly.  In northern IL, the school online-only plans are be driven by the teachers unions.


----------



## Luanne

Cornell said:


> Possibly.  In northern IL, the school online-only plans are be driven by the teachers unions.


The plan in New Mexico right now is that public schools will be online until Labor Day.  Some school districts, like Santa Fe, have already planned to be online until October 15.  Then the plan when they go to hybrid was to bring the younger children back first.


----------



## Cornell

Some of our school districts are saying "online until Oct", or "online until X".  I don't believe those promises.


----------



## TravelTime

I read an article yesterday that said the unions do not want teachers to work their regular full day with online teaching. I am so sick of these unions. Teachers should be grateful to have a job during Covid. Now they are saying they do not want to teach a full day online. This is ridiculous. I do not see why teachers are so special compared to other essential workers.


----------



## Luanne

Deleted, not worth it.


----------



## Luanne

Cornell said:


> Some of our school districts are saying "online until Oct", or "online until X".  I don't believe those promises.


You don't believe the promise that online will be only until October or X?  At least our governor is stating that even if a date is given, they will re-evaluate.  There is no promise given for ANY firm date.


----------



## Cornell

Luanne said:


> You don't believe the promise that online will be only until October or X?  At least our governor is stating that even if a date is given, they will re-evaluate.  There is no promise given for ANY firm date.


I don't believe any of the dates that are being tossed around about when schools will reopen.  For instance, if we are told "School closed until Oct 15 and then we will re-evaluate", I feel confident that no "re-evaluation" is going to result in an OPENING of schools.

One of the teachers unions here is making the case that no school should be open if it's in a county that has had a positive C19 case in the past 14 days.  That is an impossible metric that can never be achieved.  And our gov't is such that they take their leads from the unions .


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> I read an article yesterday that said the unions do not want teachers to work their regular full day with online teaching. I am so sick of these unions. Teachers should be grateful to have a job during Covid. Now they are saying they do not want to teach a full day online. This is ridiculous. I do not see why teachers are so special compared to other essential workers.


Local unions here have gotten an elementary district to agree that teachers can not be instructing online for more than 2.5 hours per day.


----------



## Luanne

TravelTime said:


> I read an article yesterday that said the unions do not want teachers to work their regular full day with online teaching. I am so sick of these unions. Teachers should be grateful to have a job during Covid. Now they are saying they do not want to teach a full day online. This is ridiculous. I do not see why teachers are so special compared to other essential workers.


This may really upset you then.

https://www.santafenewmexican.com/n...cle_c3c0b826-d2ba-11ea-af65-07a38ed25f78.html


----------



## Country Roads

Cornell said:


> Local unions here have gotten an elementary district to agree that teachers can not be instructing online for more than 2.5 hours per day.



2.5 hours per day is not a bad deal, if you can get it.


----------



## bbodb1

Luanne said:


> Deleted, not worth it.


Oh darn, I missed the fun around here again .....


----------



## geekette

Cornell said:


> Some of our school districts are saying "online until Oct", or "online until X".  I don't believe those promises.


I would try to look at it as goal vs promise.  I don't think anyone can promise anything right now.  But, I take your point.  Relying on the inevitably unreliable is recipe for madness.


----------



## bbodb1

TravelTime said:


> I read an article yesterday that said the unions do not want teachers to work their regular full day with online teaching. I am so sick of these unions. Teachers should be grateful to have a job during Covid. Now they are saying they do not want to teach a full day online. This is ridiculous. I do not see why teachers are so special compared to other essential workers.


Well, now.  Maybe the 2nd act is about to begin....


----------



## geekette

TravelTime said:


> I read an article yesterday that said the unions do not want teachers to work their regular full day with online teaching. I am so sick of these unions. Teachers should be grateful to have a job during Covid. Now they are saying they do not want to teach a full day online. This is ridiculous. I do not see why teachers are so special compared to other essential workers.


Grateful?  I sure wouldn't be grateful to be in this unwinnable situation.  

Most other essential workers do not spend all day every day inside a room with children.  Nor are most other occupations being fought about like this one.   It's not about 'so special', it's about a situation with nuances that must be considered.  

The shortened work day ...  I don't get that, would want to see what they are saying as justification.   I could understand if someone wasn't a computer person and now stuck on a computer, but aren't we really talking about being in front of a camera?


----------



## Cornell

bbodb1 said:


> Well, now.  Maybe the 2nd act is about to begin....


I believe it has .


----------



## Rolltydr

geekette said:


> I would try to look at it as goal vs promise. I don't think anyone can promise anything right now. But, I take your point. Relying on the inevitably unreliable is recipe for madness.



Isn’t it rude of Covid19 not to tell us when it’s going away so we can plan better? The very nerve!


----------



## Cornell

Rolltydr said:


> Isn’t it rude of Covid19 not to tell us when it’s going away so we can plan better? The very nerve!


I get the sentiment of what you are both saying.  But what I see at a local level is that the decisions that are being made about schools aren't based on any "metrics" -- it is the unions flexing their muscles to get their demands met.  So these "delay school opening until X condition is met" is just a feel good statement to the parents. Perhaps it's not that way where you live,  but it sure is here.


----------



## TravelTime

Luanne said:


> This may really upset you then.
> 
> https://www.santafenewmexican.com/n...cle_c3c0b826-d2ba-11ea-af65-07a38ed25f78.html



I can see giving an exemption to those over 65 since they paid their dues by working this many years. But it is unfair to exempt unhealthy people. It is not fair to exempt people based on health conditions. It is penalizing healthy people. Very unfair to healthy people who take care of themselves.


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> I can see giving an exemption to those over 65 since they paid their dues by working this many years. But it is unfair to exempt unhealthy people. It is not fair to exempt people based on health conditions. It is penalizing healthy people. Very unfair to healthy people who take care of themselves.


Did you see there is an exemption for obesity !


----------



## TravelTime

BTW, a lot of parents are upset by the unions and the teachers who are refusing to even work a full day by video. I am not a parent but we are paying a ton in property taxes to educate kids who are not getting any education right now. I feel like our taxes are being wasted.


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> Did you see there is an exemption for obesity !



Ridiculous.


----------



## bogey21

Cornell said:


> Also , our governor is sending all kinds of signals that he will force all schools to be online vs. leaving it up to the local school districts.



Texas Attorney General ruled State Department of Health cannot make the decision and that it is up to local School Districts.   In addition Governor ruled that Private Schools with religious affiliation can decide what to do on their own...

George


----------



## TravelTime

geekette said:


> Grateful?  I sure wouldn't be grateful to be in this unwinnable situation.
> 
> Most other essential workers do not spend all day every day inside a room with children.  Nor are most other occupations being fought about like this one.   It's not about 'so special', it's about a situation with nuances that must be considered.
> 
> The shortened work day ...  I don't get that, would want to see what they are saying as justification.   I could understand if someone wasn't a computer person and now stuck on a computer, but aren't we really talking about being in front of a camera?



Most people who are lucky enough to have a job are grateful for it. I know me and my DH are grateful to have jobs. I think teachers should work and be grateful for it. My DH and I are working 8+ hours a day by video. Can’t teachers at least do a 5 or 6 hour day? Is that too much to ask? Once you get used to 8 hours of Zoom meetings, it is the same as in person. People who are claiming it is too hard are just plain lazy IMO.


----------



## TravelTime

Four in 10 pupils have had little contact with teachers during lockdown
					

Two separate studies raise fears that millions of children, particularly in state schools, have done almost no work at all




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## bbodb1

TravelTime said:


> Most people who are lucky enough to have a job are grateful for it. I know me and my DH are grateful to have jobs.* I think teachers should work and be grateful for it*. My DH and I are working 8+ hours a day by video. Can’t teachers at least do a 5 or 6 hour day? Is that too much to ask? Once you get used to 8 hours of Zoom meetings, it is the same as in person. People who are claiming it is too hard are just plain lazy IMO.


Doubling down?


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> BTW, a lot of parents are upset by the unions and the teachers who are refusing to even work a full day by video. I am not a parent but we are paying a ton in property taxes to educate kids who are not getting any education right now. I feel like our taxes are being wasted.


California is very much in the same boat as IL right now with the schools and teachers unions.  They (unions) are using this health crisis to get all kinds of non-pandemic demands met.  It's similar to adding "pork" to a legislative bill.  There is discussion now that there will be a teachers strike if the schools are open at all.  Trust me, I'm livid that I am having to pay out of pocket to get my kid the education I think she deserves b/c our public schools can't  seem to get their act together.  

I felt horrible for the class of '20 due to the fact that they did not have all of the traditions and accolades that they deserve, but at least they got their education completed, for the most part.  

The current juniors and seniors are facing a situation where there is absolutely going to be an education deficit for these kids.  At a critical time when they need to be getting ready for college.


----------



## TravelTime

3 things we’ve learnt about … teaching during lockdown - Teachwire
					

Keeping you up-to-date with the latest on education, including great teaching ideas and current issues in education.




					www.teachwire.net
				




Nearly three quarters found that the school closures and subsequent switch to distance learning have actually resulted in a reduction of their working hours.


----------



## bogey21

Cornell said:


> My daughter is now enrolled in a private, online HS (Indiana University HS for those interested) .  They have been teaching in the online space for years and I feel much more comfortable that they know how to execute this vs. our local HS.  I'm honestly mad that I am paying for "private" schooling b/c our local schools are failing (at least failing my standards).



I applaud you for doing this.  It makes eminent sense to me.  Yes, there is a cost but it is not nearly as much as it costs my Daughter and her Husband to send their  3 kids to a small Christian School. 

George


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> California is very much in the same boat as IL right now with the schools and teachers unions.  They (unions) are using this health crisis to get all kinds of non-pandemic demands met.  It's similar to adding "pork" to a legislative bill.  There is discussion now that there will be a teachers strike if the schools are open at all.  Trust me, I'm livid that I am having to pay out of pocket to get my kid the education I think she deserves b/c our public schools can't  seem to get their act together.
> 
> I felt horrible for the class of '20 due to the fact that they did not have all of the traditions and accolades that they deserve, but at least they got their education completed, for the most part.
> 
> The current juniors and seniors are facing a situation where there is absolutely going to be an education deficit for these kids.  At a critical time when they need to be getting ready for college.



Students in school now and graduating in the next few years will be at an educational disadvantage because they are not learning. The smart ones with well off parents will be fine but the vast majority of these kids will not be prepared for the real world in a few years.


----------



## bbodb1

Around here, there has been no discussion of 2.5 hour per day limits so I am going to have to read a bit on that.
But if only those of us who work in the public schools could limit our interaction to just students......


----------



## TravelTime

Majority of students 'not returning work to teachers amid lockdown'
					

The majority of students have not been returning work to teachers during the coronavirus lockdown, a report that lays bare the impact of school closures has found.




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## bbodb1

TravelTime said:


> Four in 10 pupils have had little contact with teachers during lockdown
> 
> 
> Two separate studies raise fears that millions of children, particularly in state schools, have done almost no work at all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


You do realize these observations are about the English school system....right?


----------



## TravelTime

Teachers Work Two Hours Less Per Day During COVID-19: 8 Key EdWeek Survey Findings
					

More than a quarter of the nation’s school district leaders said they haven’t yet done any planning at all for next school year, according to the survey.




					www.edweek.org


----------



## bbodb1

TravelTime said:


> Majority of students 'not returning work to teachers amid lockdown'
> 
> 
> The majority of students have not been returning work to teachers during the coronavirus lockdown, a report that lays bare the impact of school closures has found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk


And where are the parents????


----------



## Cornell

bogey21 said:


> I applaud you for doing this.  It makes eminent sense to me.  Yes, there is a cost but it is not nearly as much as it costs my Daughter and her husband to send their  3 kids to a small Christian School.
> 
> George


Thank you -- trust me, I looked seriously at some private schools around me. But at the end of the day, I feel in my gut that our governor is going to shut all of the schools down here (he can do that for privates, too) and I didn't want to have my daughter in caught up in that nonsense anymore.


----------



## TravelTime

bbodb1 said:


> You do realize these observations are about the English school system....right?



Yes and the UK school system is usually superior to ours.


----------



## TravelTime

bbodb1 said:


> And where are the parents????



They are trying to work to feed the family


----------



## dayooper

@TravelTime 

Please be careful when you make blanket statements like you have above. You are degrading thousands of people who aren’t lazy, like me.


----------



## TravelTime

Coronavirus: A third of pupils 'not engaging with work'
					

Teachers say pupils are not doing as much work as normal for this time of year, as lockdown goes on.



					www.bbc.com
				




This may be about the UK school system but it is not different here.


----------



## Cornell

bbodb1 said:


> Around here, there has been no discussion of 2.5 hour per day limits so I am going to have to read a bit on that.
> But if only those of us who work in the public schools could limit our interaction to just students......


District 25 here in Arlington Heights IL.  Elementary school district.  They will have only 2.5 of online learning PER day.  That's it !  Kids are on their own the rest of the day.


----------



## TravelTime

dayooper said:


> @TravelTime
> 
> Please be careful when you make blanket statements like you have above. You are degrading thousands of people who aren’t lazy, like me.



I said “People who are claiming it is too hard are just plain lazy IMO.“ Are you complaining about working online?


----------



## bbodb1

TravelTime said:


> They are trying to work to feed the family


so a child's education is exclusively the responsibility of the teacher.....got it!


----------



## Luanne

Cornell said:


> Did you see there is an exemption for obesity !


Yep, as defined by the CDC.   I notice you didn't point out any of the other conditions the CDC defines as high risk.

"All staff belonging to high-risk groups as defined by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention will be exempt from returning to campus this school year. That includes anyone over 65 as well as those with chronic kidney disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, a weakened immune system, obesity, cancer, serious heart conditions, sickle cell disease, type II diabetes or pregnancy."


----------



## TravelTime

bbodb1 said:


> so a child's education is exclusively the responsibility of the teacher.....got it!



I did not say that but I think teachers are not teaching now. One of my teen clients told me he Is just supposed to submit work and there is no teaching at all. He said there have been zero online lessons by teachers. And this is in a good school district in the SF Bay Area. I can only imagine what is happening in the rest of the country.


----------



## TravelTime

Luanne said:


> Yep, as defined by the CDC.   I notice you didn't point out any of the other conditions the CDC defines as high risk.
> 
> "All staff belonging to high-risk groups as defined by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention will be exempt from returning to campus this school year. That includes anyone over 65 as well as those with chronic kidney disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, a weakened immune system, obesity, cancer, serious heart conditions, sickle cell disease, type II diabetes or pregnancy."



This is not fair to healthy people.


----------



## Cornell

One more thing on my school rant -- in IL the state board of education requires 4 years of PE.  What an absolute waste of time for kids to be doing PE via Zoom calls.  Now that my kid is moving to the IUHS, that PE requirement is gone and she can spend her time focused on academic learning.


----------



## bbodb1

TravelTime said:


> I did not say that but I think teachers are not teaching now. One of my teen clients told me he Is just supposed to submit work and there is no teaching at all. He said there have been zero online lessons by teachers. And this is in a good school district in the SF Bay Area. I can only imagine what is happening in the rest of the country.


Now in this area, I can shed some light.  When our state public school systems switched to remote learning last March, we were told by the state DOE NOT to introduce or cover any new material.  I cannot defend that decision but I can say that I do not believe remote learning (as it is presently practiced) is effective to any meaningful degree.  Remote learning has a place - as a reinforcement mechanism - but NOT as a means of introducing new material.  

I believe the state understood this when the decision was made, but where they have failed is in the four months since.  No progress at all has been made in improving remote learning and yet (magically somehow) people seem to think remote learning can meaningfully instruct students.  It can not.  At least not in meaningful numbers.


----------



## dayooper

@TravelTime 

I just wrote a long, detailed post on what you might not be seeing. After reading more in this thread, I decided it is not worth my time to continue this discussion. It would be best if I bowed out before I say something that is not within my character. 

It’s my own fault for reading this thread. I need to treat education threads here on TUG as I do Covid threads. 

@Cornell 

I agree with you on the PE.


----------



## Cornell

bbodb1 said:


> Now in this area, I can shed some light.  When our state public school systems switched to remote learning last March, we were told by the state DOE NOT to introduce or cover any new material.  I cannot defend that decision but I can say that I do not believe remote learning (as it is presently practiced) is effective to any meaningful degree.  Remote learning has a place - as a reinforcement mechanism - but NOT as a means of introducing new material.
> 
> I believe the state understood this when the decision was made, but where they have failed is in the four months since.  No progress at all has been made in improving remote learning and yet (magically somehow) people seem to think remote learning can meaningfully instruct students.  It can not.  At least not in meaningful numbers.


I believe what happened in your state during the spring '20 was the experience in most places.  I can let that go - I think most parents can.  

But I've been watching what's going on from the sidelines since then and just don't feel confident that progress has been made in the past 4 months in regards to remote learning in our schools.  It's upsetting & frustrating.  This observation (among other things) has led to my decision to "opt out". 

I am now going into our new HS experience with a fresh & open mind.  I am cautiously optimistic that IU HS will excel at this education model since they've been doing it for many years.  One subject , in particular, is going to be my daughter's Achilles heel online.  We may get an in-person tutor for some one-to-one assistance if needed.  There are lots of teachers around here looking for a side hustle now !


----------



## TravelTime

bbodb1 said:


> Now in this area, I can shed some light.  When our state public school systems switched to remote learning last March, we were told by the state DOE NOT to introduce or cover any new material.  I cannot defend that decision but I can say that I do not believe remote learning (as it is presently practiced) is effective to any meaningful degree.  Remote learning has a place - as a reinforcement mechanism - but NOT as a means of introducing new material.
> 
> I believe the state understood this when the decision was made, but where they have failed is in the four months since.  No progress at all has been made in improving remote learning and yet (magically somehow) people seem to think remote learning can meaningfully instruct students.  It can not.  At least not in meaningful numbers.



Why did your state tell you not to introduce or cover any new material? That seems negligent.

I think remote learning can be just as good as in person learning if it is done even halfway well. It does not take a rocket scientist to teach online.

I am taking a lot of online classes right now that are normally only offered in person. So far, they are all fabulous. And this is by individuals (single persons) and nonprofit institutions that have a lot fewer resources than school districts.


----------



## geekette

TravelTime said:


> This is not fair to healthy people.


Healthy people have the option to become unhealthy in order to get an exemption.

I'm a little appalled that you seem to think that those already battling chronic disease should just go ahead and get exposed to COVID, to be "fair".

The virus isn't fair to unhealthy people.  Many unhealthy people did nothing to gain the illness.  I don't blame people with pancreatic cancer for having a pancreas, and I could have avoided breast cancer if only I would have pre-emptively had them removed when I grew them.


----------



## TravelTime

dayooper said:


> @TravelTime
> 
> I just wrote a long, detailed post on what you might not be seeing. After reading more in this thread, I decided it is not worth my time to continue this discussion. It would be best if I bowed out before I say something that is not within my character.
> 
> It’s my own fault for reading this thread. I need to treat education threads here on TUG as I do Covid threads.
> 
> @Cornell
> 
> I agree with you on the PE.



We all have our opinions. That is the beauty of the USA. We have the right to free speech and to call it as we see it. I am sick and tired of paying taxes for bad outcomes.


----------



## TravelTime

geekette said:


> Healthy people have the option to become unhealthy in order to get an exemption.
> 
> I'm a little appalled that you seem to think that those already battling chronic disease should just go ahead and get exposed to COVID, to be "fair".
> 
> The virus isn't fair to unhealthy people.  Many unhealthy people did nothing to gain the illness.  I don't blame people with pancreatic cancer for having a pancreas, and I could have avoided breast cancer if only I would have pre-emptively had them removed when I grew them.



No, all teachers should just stay home and teach online - healthy and unhealthy. It is not fair to allow healthy teachers to get exposed to Covid and die. For all we know the so-called "healthy" people may not be all that healthy so why should they be allowed to die?


----------



## Ken555

Congrats to Laura for finding a solution that works for her and her daughter. I suspect you'll end up pleased with the decision to not go the GED route and instead complete high school (online), and then handle college next year. Make the best of it! 

And yes, I agree there are likely many options for tutoring this year, especially via Zoom etc. You can find instructors from anywhere (I don't remember the name, but I believe there's at least one reputable site to find tutors).


----------



## bbodb1

TravelTime said:


> Why did your state tell you not to introduce or cover any new material? That seems negligent.
> 
> I think remote learning can be just as good as in person learning if it is done even halfway well. It does not take a rocket scientist to teach online.
> 
> I am taking a lot of online classes right now that are normally only offered in person. So far, they are all fabulous. *And this is by individuals (single persons) and nonprofit institutions that have a lot fewer resources than school districts.*


Now obviously I cannot speak for all school districts, but I can tell you the few I am familiar with are woefully under equipped for online learning.  Under equipped not only in terms of infrastructure (bandwidth, hardware) but also software (applications and websites) suitable for remote learning.

Our district thinks using the exact same set up for in class learning will work for remote learning - it does not.  Part of the reason for this is our software (applications and websites) simply do not introduce material in such a way that it reaches the many student learning styles.  Independent learners have the best chance to succeed in this environment but no so much other learners.  That is the issue with remote learning - it only reaches one learning style effectively.


----------



## mdurette

My 8th graders school (small private) came out with the plan.   Very well thought out and laid out.   If anyone is collecting info on small private school plans feel free to PM me and I will send.

In a nutshell....
All grades will be in their own pod.  Each pod has its own space within the building with its own bathroom, handwashing stations, entrance, kitchen needs and teachers.   The goal is that the grade level pods never mix.    If a person in the pod is positive, the entire pod goes into distance learning for the time needed.      

We received their supply list today.....some of the additions this show they are planning for more outdoors, limiting soft items and items that can easily be sanitized.
1.  All weather gear as they will be spending more time outside
2.  Lunch boxes made of hard plastic/vinyl for easier cleaning.
3.  Waterproof outdoor chair (like a stadium seat) that can be easily sanitized.
4.  One backpack with a laptop sleeve to minimize gear coming into the school (they use to carry a laptop bag and backpack)

Hygiene rules:   hand washing required:  when you enter school,  before/after lunch, after you sneeze cough, touch mask, before leave for the day.

She is going, from a psychological point of view she needs to be there.    I have full faith in the faculty and staff, I know they will do their best.   My biggest worry is irresponsible parents that will still send their kids to school sick because it fits their schedule.

My second concern is the poor kid that may catch Covid and shut down a pod.     Of course nobody is supposed to know who it is....but lets be real, it will end up getting around.   Will that kid be a target of ridicule of some sort???   I have no idea, but I wonder.


Our state public schools....well the teachers union and gov't have come to an agreement they can start 10 days later so the teachers/schools can work out a plan during that time.  So the kids will start mid Sept.   That has caused a bit of an uproar because most parents cannot understand why they need and will wait until then to formulate their final plan.


----------



## Glynda

It's been a long time since I taught high school. Then we were basically given a textbook and a manual, and were expected to come up with our own lesson plans, visual materials, activities and testing.  A good bit of preparation was done at our own expense and at home. If one taught the same subject, same grade, for four or five classes a day, year after year, he/she didn't have as much to prepare as a new teacher. 

Back to college last fall was eye-opening as to how educating has changed. Printed textbook companies saw their future demise and got into developing their own websites and a combination of printed and/or online textbooks, online materials and activities. Our  instructor taught using visual material from the developer, projected onto a large screen in the classroom and using a mouse to point, highlight, and write. Most assignments were written by the developer and completed by the student on the developer's web site....graded immediately by the software but one subjective assignment to be graded by the instructor. Students could submit a note to the instructor on each question.  Grades and instructor comments were found online. Each chapter had another episode of a entertaining "soap opera" video to watch. Also on the website were study aids like vocabulary lists, flash cards, articles of cultural interest, and a listening and speaking lab. All prepared and presented by the developer. Extra on paper written assignments and testing were given by the instructor but most likely found among the developer materials and printed along with answers.

Switching to online classes using Zoom was not a big problem. The instructor used the same materials. Lectured as usual except sitting at home in front of her computer.  We could be separated into small rooms/groups to do activities and she could pop in at any time. Homework was done, graded and posted as before. The only change came in test taking and how we turned in extra assignments. Sent, downloaded, typed upon, saved, and drug and dropped into her dropbox, of course!  Oral presentations were videoed  and submitted.

Three problems. Instructor stationary thus losing attention. Students' ability to turn off sound or video on their end requiring time for the instructor to track them down. Easy to cheat. 

Bottom line for me is that If school districts can purchase these type of materials, it should be as, or more, effective. The loss of in-face social element is important but not absolutely necessary.


----------



## Cornell

@Glynda If you don't mind me asking -- what are you taking in college?  I'm interested in your experience!


----------



## Glynda

Cornell said:


> @Glynda If you don't mind me asking -- what are you taking in college?  I'm interested in your experience!



I'll be starting second year Italian.


----------



## Cornell

Glynda said:


> I'll be starting second year Italian.


Good for you.  Love that you are doing this.  

Once my life calms down a bit, I'd love to take some community college classes.


----------



## geekette

TravelTime said:


> No, all teachers should just stay home and teach online - healthy and unhealthy. It is not fair to allow healthy teachers to get exposed to Covid and die. For all we know the so-called "healthy" people may not be all that healthy so why should they be allowed to die?


Thank you for clarification.  I didn't actually think you meant what I thought you meant.  It didn't sound right coming from you.  

Agree, I don't want anyone exposed, adult or kid, healthy or not.


----------



## TravelTime

bbodb1 said:


> Now obviously I cannot speak for all school districts, but I can tell you the few I am familiar with are woefully under equipped for online learning.  Under equipped not only in terms of infrastructure (bandwidth, hardware) but also software (applications and websites) suitable for remote learning.
> 
> Our district thinks using the exact same set up for in class learning will work for remote learning - it does not.  Part of the reason for this is our software (applications and websites) simply do not introduce material in such a way that it reaches the many student learning styles.  Independent learners have the best chance to succeed in this environment but no so much other learners.  That is the issue with remote learning - it only reaches one learning style effectively.



Kids, regardless of learning style, can spend hours online for gaming, talking to friends, going on social media, etc but they can’t learn online? It seems kids have learned how to do a lot online.


----------



## bbodb1

TravelTime said:


> Kids, regardless of learning style, can spend hours online for gaming, talking to friends, going on social media, etc but they can’t learn online? It seems kids have learned how to do a lot online.


Indeed they can learn many things  - the question becomes are they learning the academic material they are supposed to be responsible for or are they wasting time in non academic pursuits?

A vast amount of online time is spent on activities that have few (if any) connections to actual learning.  Computers have mainly become the means to keep students occupied - which is a waste of time.


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> Kids, regardless of learning style, can spend hours online for gaming, talking to friends, going on social media, etc but they can’t learn online? It seems kids have learned how to do a lot online.


We have four kids in school and our rule in the precovid world was that there was no screentime during the week and I also had YouTube locked down on our router. Weekends they could play. When our school went online in March that routine had to go out the window.

Now that YouTube isn’t blocked (because that’s where teachers post their videos) it creates an issue. As parents we can’t sit beside them for 6 hours per day ( in four different rooms) making sure the YouTube channel is from the school and not Dan TDM playing Minecraft.


----------



## SteelerGal

Well, our SD provided our daily K-12 schedule for Virtual and Hybrid.  Now waiting for how they will handle SPED because zero Services were provided.  
After reviewing the Kinder schedule(90min Instruction daily), I am seriously considering returning my son to pre-K.  Preschools are still in person and he needs the socialization.


----------



## SteelerGal

jabberwocky said:


> We have four kids in school and our rule in the precovid world was that there was no screentime during the week and I also had YouTube locked down on our router. Weekends they could play. When our school went online in March that routine had to go out the window.
> 
> Now that YouTube isn’t blocked (because that’s where teachers post their videos) it creates an issue. As parents we can’t sit beside them for 6 hours per day ( in four different rooms) making sure the YouTube channel is from the school and not Dan TDM playing Minecraft.


We have 5 and it’s maddening how much screen time kids are exposed to.  And now during the school year, we will be back to 4-6hrs/day because we will need to add tutoring.


----------



## rapmarks

My son is quasi administration in a big school district, they set up five scenarios for school return.  They had settled on a hybrid plan, but the teachers union is strongly opposing it.
baraboo Wisconsin is going back to school, but kids interviewed on tv last night were adamant that wearing a mask was a violation of their rights.
my daughter has three young boys, between kindergarten and fifth grade,  they really need to go back to school, this is very bad for students who don’t love school and don’t get a lot of help at home.  
It is terrible for any student who rely on school for food, emotional support, and the many other things that schools provide in addition to education


----------



## rapmarks

Cornell said:


> I disagree. Starting salaries are low for public school teachers but those with experience make a very nice living especially when you factor in their compensation package.... benefits and pensions that are unheard of in the private sector.


I am a retired Illinois school teacher.  They did take 12% of my salary all those years to pay for the pension I receive.  My salary was never very high, but my pension has grown, but I was told that the first twenty some years is a return of my own contribution.  And the school district never had to put in social security, and in older teachers medicare, and that is seldom taken into account.


----------



## Cornell

rapmarks said:


> I am a retired Illinois school teacher.  They did take 12% of my salary all those years to pay for the pension I receive.  My salary was never very high, but my pension has grown, but I was told that the first twenty some years is a return of my own contribution.  And the school district never had to put in social security, and in older teachers medicare, and that is seldom taken into account.


Totally get the whole IL teacher pension thing -- this topic is a passion of mine and I follow it closely.  Those of you who paid in absolutely should get what you were promised.  Unfortunately, the pension payouts are much bigger than the money going in.  Hence, why IL is teetering on bankruptcy.  It's a financial model that cannot be sustained.


----------



## Cornell

rapmarks said:


> My son is quasi administration in a big school district, they set up five scenarios for school return.  They had settled on a hybrid plan, but the teachers union is strongly opposing it.
> baraboo Wisconsin is going back to school, but kids interviewed on tv last night were adamant that wearing a mask was a violation of their rights.
> my daughter has three young boys, between kindergarten and fifth grade,  they really need to go back to school, this is very bad for students who don’t love school and don’t get a lot of help at home.
> It is terrible for any student who rely on school for food, emotional support, and the many other things that schools provide in addition to education


I feel for these school administrators.  They are  absolutely in a no-win situation here.  Tough, tough choices are being made.


----------



## bogey21

SteelerGal said:


> Well, our SD provided our daily K-12 schedule for Virtual and Hybrid.  Now waiting for how they will handle SPED because zero Services were provided.
> After reviewing the Kinder schedule(90min Instruction daily), *I am seriously considering returning my son to pre-K.*  Preschools are still in person and he needs the socialization.



Exactly what I would do.  Teach what you can at home.  Blow off this year and hopefully start for real next year.   So your Son will be a year older than his classmates going forward.  No big deal.  And if he turns out to be an athlete, it will be a plus...

George


----------



## geoand

I have no children that are school age. I am absolutely relieved that I don’t have to worry about this situation for myself. HOWEVER, I am concerned about the health of all the children that need schooling


----------



## Country Roads

Questions arise over plans for private tutoring by teachers in Fairfax County

FAIRFAX COUNTY, Va. (FOX 5 DC) - In Fairfax County, FOX 5 has discovered teachers are advertising paid tutoring services as school districts across the area prepare to start school via distance learning.

One parent said she finds it worrisome that teachers are looking to profit off of what she described as an inferior educational experience referring to virtual learning and once again we’re hearing this separates the haves from the have nots — families who can afford this and those who can’t.









						Questions arise over plans for private tutoring by teachers in Fairfax County
					

In Fairfax County, FOX 5 has discovered teachers are advertising paid tutoring services as school districts across our area prepare to start school via distance learning.




					www.fox5dc.com
				




An interesting concept.


----------



## Cornell

@Country Roads 
Yup , 100% parallel situation in IL.  This whole thing is creating such anger in the communities where I live.  Almost akin to the strife that teachers' strikes create.  

Additionally, I have already been told that I am contributing to "systemic racism" by pulling my daughter out of public schools and getting her an online curriculum.  I'm contributing to it because I'm furthering the divide of the haves vs have nots.


----------



## Country Roads

Cornell said:


> @Country Roads
> Yup , 100% parallel situation in IL.  This whole thing is creating such anger in the communities where I live.  Almost akin to the strife that teachers' strikes create.
> 
> Additionally, I have already been told that I am contributing to "systemic racism" by pulling my daughter out of public schools and getting her an online curriculum.  I'm contributing to it because I'm furthering the divide of the haves vs have nots.



How dare you do what's best for daughter, racist!


----------



## Brett

Fairfax County Public Schools in Virginia -  one of the country’s largest districts, is asking families to choose between 100 percent virtual learning or part-time in-person schooling next year, one of the first concrete plans for fall released by schools nationwide. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...acfe92-b62d-11ea-aca5-ebb63d27e1ff_story.html


----------



## Cornell

Country Roads said:


> How dare you do what's best for daughter, racist!


I was stunned.  This person is someone I personally know.  She sent me a DM via social media with an article making her case.  I didn't even know how to react.


----------



## rapmarks

mdurette said:


> My 8th graders school (small private) came out with the plan.   Very well thought out and laid out.   If anyone is collecting info on small private school plans feel free to PM me and I will send.
> 
> In a nutshell....
> All grades will be in their own pod.  Each pod has its own space within the building with its own bathroom, handwashing stations, entrance, kitchen needs and teachers.   The goal is that the grade level pods never mix.    If a person in the pod is positive, the entire pod goes into distance learning for the time needed.
> 
> We received their supply list today.....some of the additions this show they are planning for more outdoors, limiting soft items and items that can easily be sanitized.
> 1.  All weather gear as they will be spending more time outside
> 2.  Lunch boxes made of hard plastic/vinyl for easier cleaning.
> 3.  Waterproof outdoor chair (like a stadium seat) that can be easily sanitized.
> 4.  One backpack with a laptop sleeve to minimize gear coming into the school (they use to carry a laptop bag and backpack)
> 
> Hygiene rules:   hand washing required:  when you enter school,  before/after lunch, after you sneeze cough, touch mask, before leave for the day.
> 
> She is going, from a psychological point of view she needs to be there.    I have full faith in the faculty and staff, I know they will do their best.   My biggest worry is irresponsible parents that will still send their kids to school sick because it fits their schedule.
> 
> My second concern is the poor kid that may catch Covid and shut down a pod.     Of course nobody is supposed to know who it is....but lets be real, it will end up getting around.   Will that kid be a target of ridicule of some sort???   I have no idea, but I wonder.
> 
> 
> Our state public schools....well the teachers union and gov't have come to an agreement they can start 10 days later so the teachers/schools can work out a plan during that time.  So the kids will start mid Sept.   That has caused a bit of an uproar because most parents cannot understand why they need and will wait until then to formulate their final plan.


Yes, the plan should have been worked on all summer. 
sounds like a good plan, unless any student has a sibling.
how do they get to school?  Seems like they must come by car, again assumes not riding with sibling or car pooling.


----------



## rapmarks

Cornell said:


> @Country Roads
> Yup , 100% parallel situation in IL.  This whole thing is creating such anger in the communities where I live.  Almost akin to the strife that teachers' strikes create.
> 
> Additionally, I have already been told that I am contributing to "systemic racism" by pulling my daughter out of public schools and getting her an online curriculum.  I'm contributing to it because I'm furthering the divide of the haves vs have nots.


What bull


----------



## bogey21

Cornell said:


> @Country Roads
> Additionally, I have already been told that I am contributing to "systemic racism" by pulling my daughter out of public schools and getting her an online curriculum.  I'm contributing to it because I'm furthering the divide of the haves vs have nots.



The answer to the "divide" is for Districts that insist on Online Learning to give a stipend to Parents to use to help them pay for alternatives....

George


----------



## geekette

bogey21 said:


> The answer to the "divide" is for Districts that insist on Online Learning to give a stipend to Parents to use to help them pay for alternatives....
> 
> George


not sure they have that stipend to give.


----------



## PigsDad

geekette said:


> not sure they have that stipend to give.


If teachers only want to teach 2.5 hours a day, then cut their pay to match that effort and use the extra funds to help those students in need.  Of course that would never work for several reasons, but logically it make sense on a certain level.

On an even more radical note, if the school district is going 100% online, what if they furloughed all staff and used all of that money to pay for online instruction from a third party company (one that has experience in online instruction -- there are many) for all students?  Not sure how the dollars would match, but it is definitely a thinking-out-of-the-box idea!

Kurt


----------



## bbodb1

Cornell said:


> @Country Roads
> Additionally, I have already been told that I am contributing to "systemic racism" by pulling my daughter out of public schools and getting her an online curriculum.  I'm contributing to it because I'm furthering the divide of the haves vs have nots.


Further away.
When giving your children the best possible options you can is somehow construed as racism, that speaks volumes about the people casting the accusations.


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> @Country Roads
> Yup , 100% parallel situation in IL.  This whole thing is creating such anger in the communities where I live.  Almost akin to the strife that teachers' strikes create.
> 
> Additionally, I have already been told that I am contributing to "systemic racism" by pulling my daughter out of public schools and getting her an online curriculum.  I'm contributing to it because I'm furthering the divide of the haves vs have nots.



What kind of friends do you have who would even think to say this?

So in what way is giving your daughter less opportunity going to help those on the lower rung of the ladder move up?

Can you post what she shared with you? I am curious.


----------



## PigsDad

TravelTime said:


> What kind of friends do you have who would even think to say this?


I find it amazing the things you find out about your friends in these times.  Science deniers who I would have never guessed to be so, for example.  Crazy.

Kurt


----------



## Luanne

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/01/us/schools-reopening-indiana-coronavirus.html


----------



## LMD

PigsDad said:


> I find it amazing the things you find out about your friends in these times.  Science deniers who I would have never guessed to be so, for example.  Crazy.
> 
> Kurt


I agree....even some family members are surprising me!!


----------



## mdurette

rapmarks said:


> Yes, the plan should have been worked on all summer.
> sounds like a good plan, unless any student has a sibling.
> how do they get to school?  Seems like they must come by car, again assumes not riding with sibling or car pooling.



They addressed this in their plan too.....all car pools need to be registered with the school and they are asking everyone to wear mask while carpooling.   If someone in the car pool has an issue, all the pods associated with that car pool will go into distance learning.    Same concept with siblings.


----------



## Cornell

@TravelTime 
This was the article that my friend sent me . She is very woke / SJW.  In her message to me , she indicated that our public schools are just fine for my daughter this year and said that I should be using my $$ to assist the efforts in less advantaged communities.  









						On COVID-19 and Micro-schooling, Pods, and more | Integrated Schools
					

As school districts have started rolling out their plans for the Fall, parents across the country have started to react. In White and/or privileged communities, we have noticed  A LOT of chatter about learning pods, or small groups, or micro-schooling. It feels like with each announcement, more ...




					integratedschools.org


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> @TravelTime
> This was the article that my friend sent me . She is very woke / SJW.  In her message to me , she indicated that our public schools are just fine for my daughter this year and said that I should be using my $$ to assist the efforts in less advantaged communities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On COVID-19 and Micro-schooling, Pods, and more | Integrated Schools
> 
> 
> As school districts have started rolling out their plans for the Fall, parents across the country have started to react. In White and/or privileged communities, we have noticed  A LOT of chatter about learning pods, or small groups, or micro-schooling. It feels like with each announcement, more ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> integratedschools.org



Interesting article. I am not sure what to think. In principle, it sounds great. However, in reality, public schools (at least in California) are inherently unequal because they are based on neighborhoods. In wealthy neighborhoods, the public schools can be as good as the best private schools. I am thinking of school districts in the Silicon Valley like Palo Alto (near Stanford), Los Gatos/Saratoga, Cupertino, Fremont, etc. Parents are paying millions for their homes and the corresponding high property taxes to have the privilege of sending theIr children to the best public schools. Is it like thIs in other areas?

So how would you segregate schools when it is based on neighborhoods? The space is limited in many public schools. As a result, people do not want outsiders attending their schools bc there is barely enough space for the residents. In the top public schools in Silicon Valley, in order to register your children, you need to provide multiple forms of proof that you live in the district’s boundaries. There has been a lot of cheating by parents using a false address to enroll their kids so the districts have gotten smart and make sure enrolling students actually live in the district.


----------



## jabberwocky

Cornell said:


> @TravelTime
> This was the article that my friend sent me . She is very woke / SJW. In her message to me , she indicated that our public schools are just fine for my daughter this year and said that I should be using my $$ to assist the efforts in less advantaged communities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On COVID-19 and Micro-schooling, Pods, and more | Integrated Schools
> 
> 
> As school districts have started rolling out their plans for the Fall, parents across the country have started to react. In White and/or privileged communities, we have noticed  A LOT of chatter about learning pods, or small groups, or micro-schooling. It feels like with each announcement, more ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> integratedschools.org



[mention]Cornell [/mention] - don’t for one minute feel guilty. You are doing the best you can for your daughter under difficult circumstances. 

I’m a strong believer that education is one of the best ways to level the playing field and this is why I strongly think schools should be back in person.

Anyone who says a teacher is not an essential worker is devaluing the teaching profession. Sure, you might not get immediate results like you do with a nurse, doctor, firefighter etc., with teaching the results aren’t realized for sometimes 12-25 years but they do make a difference (I’m proof of that). 

I can think of nothing more critical than teaching young minds to be good citizens, and unfortunately most of those lessons cannot be taught online. 

Stay strong, you’ve got this!


----------



## geekette

Cornell said:


> This was the article that my friend sent me . She is very woke / SJW.  In her message to me , she indicated that our public schools are just fine for my daughter this year and said that *I should be using my $$* to assist the efforts in less advantaged communities.


How convenient, someone to tell you how to spend your money....


----------



## Cornell

@jabberwocky Thank you so much for your words - they really mean a lot to me and were just the "pep talk" I needed today.  

Everyone is screaming so loud with their opinions about everything these days.  It's often times hard not to get sucked into the insanity.  

I, too, highly value education -- that is why I follow what's going on with our schools so closely (it's becoming an obsession, hahahaha).  I need to trust my gut on this.  And my gut is that this year is NOT going to be a good one for our students where I live.  

And @geekette:  I hear 'ya.


----------



## Cornell

@TravelTime You bring up the many vast complexities of our education system.  I personally believe in vouchers and would love to see more free market competition going on. But I hesitated even typing these words as I know it verges on political.

Use my geographic region as a micro-example:  There are so many families really panicking about the school year.  Not all have the resources for alternatives.  IF there were vouchers, more people could do what I am:  remove their kids from the local schools and find an alternative.  If enough people did that, the public schools would feel a great threat by that and would have to up their game in order to survive or to keep their "rankings".  Education is big business, however, with powerful lobbyists.  This idea has never gotten a lot of traction over the years.


----------



## bbodb1

@Cornell - I'll offer a suggestion in kind.

Send the person who sent you that article a link to _The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism _by Max Weber.


----------



## Cornell

One more comment on this topic... our youth athletics have been (for the most part) shut down for the fall (at a minimum). This includes club , too. We now have a mini exodus of our top high school athletes. Several families announced they (or their child) are moving to different states for the school year so they can continue with their pursuits.


----------



## bbodb1

Cornell said:


> @TravelTime You bring up the many vast complexities of our education system.  I personally believe in vouchers and would love to see more free market competition going on. But I hesitated even typing these words as I know it verges on political.
> 
> Use my geographic region as a micro-example:  There are so many families really panicking about the school year.  Not all have the resources for alternatives.  IF there were vouchers, more people could do what I am:  remove their kids from the local schools and find an alternative.  If enough people did that, the public schools would feel a great threat by that and would have to up their game in order to survive or to keep their "rankings".  Education is big business, however, with powerful lobbyists.  This idea has never gotten a lot of traction over the years.



...and to extend this point in a somewhat different direction, as an employee of a public school district, I can tell you every district sells their soul to increase their student count because it means more money coming from the state.  The point here is that while education is indeed a big business, it is concurrently in a relationship where the school district plays the role of a drug addict while the state and federal governments are the suppliers.


----------



## Cornell

What Could School Be Like in the Fall? Summer School in Detroit Offers a Preview
					

When public schools in Detroit opened for summer school, protesters blocked buses and challenged the opening in a lawsuit. In-person learning was too risky, they said, amid the pandemic.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## Brett

*https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/alexandria-city-public-schools-should-start-the-fall-all-virtual-superintendent-says/2020/07/31/0b93787a-d34a-11ea-8d32-1ebf4e9d8e0d_story.html*


----------



## bogey21

Cornell said:


> I'm contributing to it because I'm furthering the divide of the haves vs have nots.


Back when I switched my kids from public to private school I was only a "have" in that I had the ability to borrow the money to cover their tuition.  And remember I was still paying Property Taxes, the majority of which went to cover the costs of the Public School System which we didn't use.  By the time my kids graduated from HS I was $50,000 in debt and then had to figure out how to cover the costs of college...

George


----------



## Ken555

LAUSD, teachers reach tentative deal for more predictable remote learning schedules for students 









						LAUSD, teachers reach tentative deal on remote learning
					

Students will have a more predictable learning schedule under an agreement between the teachers union and L.A. Unified amid the coronavirus outbreak.




					www.latimes.com
				






> Even though they will be at home, Los Angeles students will have a predictable learning schedule that resembles a regular school day when the fall semester starts in two weeks, under a tentative agreement over rules for instruction reached by teachers and the district.
> 
> The official school day would last from 9 a.m. until 2:15 p.m. Classroom teachers are expected to work an average of six hours per day, which means that some work is expected to take place outside of the set schedule.
> 
> The school day would include daily live online interaction, small group work and independent work as well as time to focus on the social and emotional needs of students. There is also time for office hours, during which students and families could connect with teachers.


----------



## Cornell

@Ken555 Thanks for sharing.  I see that nurses, librarians still have jobs under this arrangement.  I've been wondering how those types of staff members would be handled.


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> @Ken555 Thanks for sharing.  I see that nurses, librarians still have jobs under this arrangement.  I've been wondering how those types of staff members would be handled.



Yeah, it's a concern. I have a friend in Ohio who is a librarian specialist (I'm not exactly sure of her title) and she was let go in April or so along with many others. It was a shock, to be sure.


----------



## bbodb1

Ken555 said:


> Yeah, it's a concern. I have a friend in Ohio who is a librarian specialist (I'm not exactly sure of her title) and she was let go in April or so along with many others. It was a shock, to be sure.


In Arkansas, they are referred to as media specialists (I have no idea why, but then again, I am in Arkansas).....
Also in this state, teachers cannot be let go in the middle of their contract, but they can be told their contract will not be renewed for the upcoming school year.  I suspect every state has its own nuances when it comes to teacher contracts.  
Nurses would still be required for monitoring the health of anyone entering the school (staff included) - even if students were not present.  
Media specialists serve very different roles throughout a school district.  In my building, ours would be functioning pretty much as a librarian and handling the library activity classes.  Since we shut down in March, the librarian (media specialist) was expected to continue posting assignments similar to what was expected if school were conducted in person.  I cannot speak to the role this position plays at other grade levels.


----------



## travelpager

jabberwocky said:


> We have four kids in school and our rule in the precovid world was that there was no screentime during the week and I also had YouTube locked down on our router. Weekends they could play. When our school went online in March that routine had to go out the window.



I can relate to this. Or I could, until first one school and then the other segued into Google Classroom as a way to receive and upload assignments. Since middle school, neither kid can complete an assignment without internet access ... literally. It's maddening. Assignments involve virtual textbooks, video assignments, etc., and that was well before Covid19.

Today I have 2 kids in 2 different high schools. Each school will start the academic school year on the same day, Aug 19 (versus public school start date of Sept 8), but has otherwise taken different approaches. The smaller, parochial school (grades 9-12) will open for in-room instruction; a family nevertheless may opt for remote learning (min. commitment of one grading quarter). Today we rec'd pages of policy and protocol with flow charts (attached one - sorry it's hard to read) AND the form on which families must now commit to one option or the other by Aug 10. Happened to talk to Kid1's counselor this morning and, based on anecdotal knowledge, she predicts that about one-third will opt for remote learning. Kid2 attends a larger (K-12) private school that surveyed families last spring, drafted Plans A - E, then surveyed families again. The first week in July, that school announced that the start date would not change but all classes would be remote instruction (only) at least through Labor Day.

Both schools handled online instruction well enough last spring. Kid2's school never does ANYTHING halfway and clearly invested time this summer retooling instruction/curriculum. Kid2, a social kid who plays sports despite a history of asthma, does not like the current situation at all. I get that. Life is full of disappointments, many of which are generally preferable to death/lifelong impairment. Kid1, a "different learner" who does well in school but prefers machines to most humans, is on cloud 9 because I can't "force him to do people stuff" and "team/group assignments should never have left Hell in the first place" (he's being funny - we're not religious like that). As things stand right now (school plans + local infection/hospitalization rates + mayor/county health district declaring that existing resources cannot handle the spike that would follow classroom instruction throughout the nation's 6th largest school district + my dad just tested positive for one antibody and awaits further test results), both my kids will be home. If nothing else, I figure that, political will be d*mned, by Labor Day the numbers will have spiked high enough to disappoint the more determined optimists (current batting average is NOT GREAT) and resumption/continuation of in-person classes will be even less tenable. 

Finally, let me say that I would be FIRST (okay, maybe nineteenth) in line to protest the redistribution of funds from public schools to private schools. So much variation in schools and resources. Beyond the "official" public school supply lists for the district grade levels, most students are asked to bring two rolls of toilet paper (!!) and I can't find a teacher who has never spent out-of-pocket or maintained a "wish list" of items that were provided when I was in (public) school. Meanwhile, one of the schools described in the previous paragraph boasts an endowment larger than some small colleges and the less said about tuition, the better. I know for a fact that some families with kids in that school's elementary grades have organized their kids into groups who will share/meet with a tutor/proctor/helper who may or may not be a teacher attempting to supplement a household income recently decimated by a spouse's loss of employment or business. I am friends with the decisionmakers in some of those families and have never seen any of their account balances, dividend checks or investment returns (property tax expenses are public records in Texas, but what of the condo/2d home in Colorado/Bahamas?) but none of us should enjoy another night's sleep if we knowingly encourage the diversion of funds from public school districts to subsidize these endeavors or private school initiatives. My words don't mean much, but I'd better NOT hear that PrivateSchoolPaul accepted a DIME robbed from PublicSchoolPeter.


----------



## TravelTime

Pandemic Pods, an interesting idea for learning.

@Cornell The article talks about the learning divide. I guess this is becoming a debate. Maybe families can invite someone from a less advantaged background to participate in their learning pod. Just a thought.

_But many parents fear learning pods will only further segregate low-income children and families from the best education possible.

“What most families do is, they start from a place of self-interest. They say, ‘all right, I’ve got to figure out what’s best for my family, got to figure out what’s best for my child.’ And the families who have greater sets of resources usually use those resources to hoard educational opportunities,” Dr. L’Heureux Lewis-McCoy, a sociologist who studies educational inequality at New York University, told The Times. “The truth of the matter is, we’re staring down the barrel at something that is going to divide and widen the gaps between kids.”_

Read more here: https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article244687542.html?#storylink=cpy


----------



## bbodb1

Turning back now to address issues we will all have to deal with when school opens soon, in my district, administration is proving itself to be very good at sound bytes and not so good at addressing actual issues related to exceeding classroom capacity (surpassing social distancing requirements).  Despite the continued pleas from the CDC to ensure social distancing, our district (for the moment) appears to have no plan or intent to reduce class sizes this year.  When asked, the district's response to a question about their efforts to maintain social distancing was as follows: 



> ...Social distancing will be observed as much as possible during the school day.



Nothing else. 

Our district has had 5 months to prepare for the opening coming later this month.
There has been no increase in staff numbers.
There are no plans to make use of open space in buildings.
The district's plan is pretty much to continue on as they did before, except for enacting a few measures to restrict student movement throughout the buildings.  

We won't be in school very long this year either it appears.


----------



## Cornell

I just attended our local school board meeting. Huge turnout , so overflow crowd was placed in a theater , which was supposed to have audio and video simulcast.  They couldn't get the technology to work.  AND this week, our districts servers went down for 2 days.  And we are supposed to feel confident with virtual learning & somehow things will be different this fall?

The irony is amazing.  I'm sure the IT crowd is on thin ice right now as public speaker after speaker ripped on the technology issues at the meeting.


----------



## geekette

Cornell said:


> I just attended our local school board meeting. Huge turnout , so overflow crowd was placed in a theater , which was supposed to have audio and video simulcast.  They couldn't get the technology to work.  AND this week, our districts servers went down for 2 days.  And we are supposed to feel confident with virtual learning & somehow things will be different this fall?
> 
> The irony is amazing.  I'm sure the IT crowd is on thin ice right now as public speaker after speaker ripped on the technology issues at the meeting.


IT is always an easy target.   What were they given to work with?   Old overloaded servers with a lot more people on them at once than ever expected?  Incompatible piece parts?   Even the best home builder would have a problem building a shack from nothing but duct tape.  

My bet is that appropriate investments were not made in tech and it's just easier to blame the people trying to use duct tape and chewing gum to get it rolling.  

I can't tell you  how many times people blamed IT when they simply lacked knowledge of how to run their PowerPoint...


----------



## Cornell

@geekette I have no idea.  Not my problem.  But this gives me zero confidence that virtual school is going to work this fall.  We are supposed to be one of the most "cutting edge" districts in the nation.


----------



## bogey21

Clearly every parent has to fend for themselves.  The first step is to understand the competence of the local School Board and the direction they are heading.  If not satisfied, it has to be go to Plan B whatever that turns out to be...

George


----------



## bbodb1

geekette said:


> IT is always an easy target.   What were they given to work with?   Old overloaded servers with a lot more people on them at once than ever expected?  Incompatible piece parts?   Even the best home builder would have a problem building a shack from nothing but duct tape.
> 
> My bet is that appropriate investments were not made in tech and it's just easier to blame the people trying to use duct tape and chewing gum to get it rolling.



In general, school districts hate making investments in technology that is not directly seen in the classroom because the district loses the ability to show it off.  Server infrastructure within a school district is often woefully neglected and the personnel a school district can attract _*and retain*_ in the long term is another limiting factor.  All of this is to say, you usually are not getting the best or latest of the technology world when it comes to a public school district.  Here is a slightly different example:

A school district invests in Chromebooks for their students.  This becomes eye candy for the district because students touch the Chromebooks everyday and the district puffs its collective chest out to proclaim how modern the district is.  But in the process to purchase these Chromebooks, school districts either fail to properly estimate the wear and tear the students will inflict on the Chromebooks or desire to purchase the minimally required unit to meet current application or website needs in order to save money today.  

When decisions are made using these factors as primary guiding forces, the district has further shortened the expected useful life of these units.  School districts in our area expect _*staff workstations*_ to be viable for about 7 years and with that in mind have a rolling schedule of replacement within their budgets.  As many districts began purchasing Chromebooks, they initially used the same expectations for the effective life time for these units as well.  Under no circumstances will a Chromebook last through 7 years  of student use - not to mention how out of date the Chromebook will be in a much shorter time frame (likely about 3 years).  

Many districts in our area are indeed using Chromebooks - old, outdated (in terms of hardware, ports, and processing capability), and well worn (maybe even abused) units.  

The problem with unit abuse has not been dealt with properly at our school - administration is loathe to financially charge the parents / guardians of the little angels who intentionally damage units so you can image how quickly this becomes a problem.  

I know that story is not directly reflective of the I.T. department, but too many purchasing and strategic decisions made by school districts place I.T. in a position of failure before the decision can even be implemented.  

If you know of a district that the above does _*not *_accurately describe, that is a strong sign of a forward thinking district.



geekette said:


> I can't tell you  how many times people blamed IT when they simply lacked knowledge of how to run their PowerPoint...



Or any of a hundred (or more) things you would expect college graduates since the 90's to be proficient users of.... but the reality is they are teachers first and if they have a complete grasp of their content area and can effectively teach that knowledge, that's really all one can ask.


----------



## Cornell

bogey21 said:


> Clearly every parent has to fend for themselves.  The first step is to understand the competence of the local School Board and the direction they are heading.  If not satisfied, it has to be go to Plan B whatever that turns out to be...
> 
> George


I've already made my decision about my kid for the year.  But I spoke at  the school board meeting today b/c I'm very concerned by all of the kids.  It was cathartic to look them each in the eye to give them my opinion.  I am sure my words don't matter to them, but I know I tried .


----------



## bbodb1

Cornell said:


> I've already made my decision about my kid for the year.  But I spoke at  the school board meeting today b/c I'm very concerned by all of the kids.  It was cathartic to look them each in the eye to give them my opinion.  I am sure my words don't matter to them, but I know I tried .



But you did more than many will do - it is how government is supposed to work!


----------



## travelpager

MabelP said:


> Most importantly, besides the academics, these kids were missing out on social emotional skills. Let the kids be kids and listen to the pediatricians.



Agreed. Fwiw, I asked my pediatrician for her opinion. She answered that she will keep her asthmatic high schooler home and, of her 8 partners, the 5 who have school-age kids (mostly 8-15 y o, incl 1 on autism spectrum) with 60/40 public/private school, each has determined that the virus-associated risks outweigh health benefits at this time where we live. *Consistent with one of your points, this group is better able to "make do" than many others.* MY point is that, asked specifically about my kids, my pediatrician recommended to avoid groups (10+) of non-household members ("Lord, deliver us from these teens who have just '1 or 2' friends over," she said) at least until the city gets its act together on test availability & result turnaround time. She said, "The first month [of in-person school] will be a Grand Experiment. Body temps aren't the end-all measure and some of these schools don't even have a nurse. I'm going to watch what’s coming into clinic. If I see 5 grandmas bringing grandkids sent from school and 1 maybe 2 of those kids test positive, I'll be happily surprised. I say wait it out."


----------



## Brett

This Georgia elementary school just opened - then closed in two days

https://www.tribuneledgernews.com/l...cle_a0ac7bf2-d695-11ea-b1f9-7fbae1ea1b02.html


----------



## travelpager

Brett said:


> This Georgia elementary school just opened - then closed in two days
> 
> https://www.tribuneledgernews.com/l...cle_a0ac7bf2-d695-11ea-b1f9-7fbae1ea1b02.html



w o m p ,       w o m p


----------



## DeniseM

In California, your county has to be below an 8%, C19 infection rate to have kids on campus.  Our rolling 14 day rate is 25% - seriously.  Our schools will start with online instruction, and move to in-person instruction, if and when the county gets their rates down for 14 consecutive days.

I don't know if it can be done, because our local elected officials are less than enthusiastic about supporting preventitive measures.  Example: Recently, our chief of police had a big destination wedding to a woman employeed in city government and many of the local movers and shakers attended - no social distancing or masks.

Most districts are requiring teachers to work on campus, which means that teachers are still exposed to a lot of other people with shared bathrooms, offices, meetings, etc.  Also - those teachers' own children are at home because their schools are closed, so they don't have childcare.  There are a lot of teachers over 50, and with co-morbidities, so this is of grave concern.  Some districts are allowing teachers with children who are 12 or under to work from home.


----------



## geekette

....Or any of a hundred (or more) things you would expect college graduates since the 90's to be proficient users of.... but the reality is they are teachers first and if they have a complete grasp of their content area and can effectively teach that knowledge, that's really all one can ask. 

I Completely Agree.  My goal was always for tech to be a helpful tool and not the big scary burden between professional and performing their profession.  Things should just work, ideally.   I don't like people being stuck as troubleshooting is not their area of expertise, and it is incredibly frustrating for them.   My gut feel is they probably get little to no training, making it a ridiculous burden to figure it out themselves.  The sudden school closures were a pretty dramatic dump onto teachers.  

I hope that this pandemic brings a lot higher salaries and respect to teachers.   I don't know why it's not a better paid profession, given how critically important it is.


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> I just attended our local school board meeting. Huge turnout , so overflow crowd was placed in a theater , which was supposed to have audio and video simulcast.  They couldn't get the technology to work.  AND this week, our districts servers went down for 2 days.  And we are supposed to feel confident with virtual learning & somehow things will be different this fall?
> 
> The irony is amazing.  I'm sure the IT crowd is on thin ice right now as public speaker after speaker ripped on the technology issues at the meeting.



Did they do the meeting in person for this big group of people? That would be ironic since they are not allowing classes to be in person.


----------



## cman

I want our schools reopened. But this is not the way to do it. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...eorgia-school-reopening-photo-paulding-county


----------



## Cornell

@TravelTime Hi Laura!  No, the in person meeting was in a large room with everyone carefully socially distancing.  Chairs set up 6' apart . Because of this, this is why they needed overflow in the theater.

The more I reflect on this meeting, the more angry I've become.  The reasons that they are using to keep the schools closed are so ridiculous.  Just weak leadership.

What I'm really upset about now is this....Every time I push back on a "school person" , whether that's a teacher, board member, administrator and ask "How will this fall be any different than last spring?" , the answer I get is "Attendance will be taken online and the kids have to keep their cameras on".  That's it?  Really?  There has been zero effort or training in to figuring out how to adapt these curriculums and methods to a virtual setting.  You can't just use your traditional in-class methods and expect that they will work in a virtual setting.  

My rant is done. I'm so glad I've chosen to go a different route.


----------



## Cornell

One more thing....Many of the public school districts here are now using their schools for things like "Smart Start Camps" or "Virtual Learning Camps".  FAMILIES HAVE TO PAY FOR THIS.  School staff will be in the building so kids are supervised while they do their virtual learning from the school buildings.  

"School staff will provide supervision, help facilitate and supervise remote learning activities, provide snacks and movement breaks, social-emotional learning opportunities, and support students with homework".  

We have truly entered the twilight zone.


----------



## Luanne

In a survey sent out to parents in the Santa Fe School District over half are saying they would prefer online learning for the entire school year.


----------



## bbodb1

Luanne said:


> In a survey sent out to parents in the Santa Fe School District over half are saying they would prefer online learning for the entire school year.


That is very interesting.


----------



## Cornell

Luanne said:


> In a survey sent out to parents in the Santa Fe School District over half are saying they would prefer online learning for the entire school year.


Not according to this.  1/3 only want fully remote learning.  



			https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/coronavirus/sfps-survey-teachers-want-to-teach-remotely-parents-split-on-options-for-2020-21/article_4450b6f0-c51c-11ea-84da-578167b80a5b.html


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## Luanne

Cornell said:


> Not according to this.  1/3 only want fully remote learning.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/coronavirus/sfps-survey-teachers-want-to-teach-remotely-parents-split-on-options-for-2020-21/article_4450b6f0-c51c-11ea-84da-578167b80a5b.html


That article was dated July 13.  Another survey was sent out after that on July 29. I am going by an article in the Santa Fe New Mexican today.  You need to stay current. 

And I apologize.  I stated that more than half responded they wanted online for the school year.  As of today, it's 50%.

https://www.santafenewmexican.com/n...cle_385300c0-d76d-11ea-a6b6-97d4988be69d.html


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## bbodb1

nm.


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## Pathways

Cornell said:


> One more thing on my school rant -- in IL the state board of education requires 4 years of PE.  What an absolute waste of time for kids to be doing PE via Zoom calls.  Now that my kid is moving to the IUHS, that PE requirement is gone and she can spend her time focused on academic learning.



First day in a while I have had time to read lounge threads.

You/yours will have a great experience with IUHS.  Two of mine took senior classes there while attending their local HS as a junior so they could graduate a year early.   Great instructors and help available.  Ignore the naysayers.

All my kids left HS early to start their military training so they could be on campus at college with their original classmates from HS. (They used the military benefits to pay for all their college)

My oldest was in HS sports, so attended his senior year until the state championships in his sport, and then left for basic training the following week. In searching for my old IU High School emails, I found the letter he wrote to one of his teachers and classmates that he 'abandoned'. Thought you might enjoy. (Personal stuff deleted)


Mr XXX and Class

Greetings from Sheppard AFB, Texas

    The past twelve weeks have held the longest, most
horrific, and yet the most rewarding moments in my
entire life. I have been through so much that it feels
as though years have passed since I have seen the
familiar landscape of Indiana.
    The first week at basic training was the most alone I
have felt in my life, even with the forty eight other
trainees next to me at every moment. I happened to be
the youngest person by a year and most of the people I
met were married and had children. I have trained with
people from around the world: a father from Guam to an
LA police officer and so many in between,
    I have learned values I wouldn't have ever learned
without the pain of training. I know now that I
have taken for granted so many things and have a whole
new appreciation for family and the civilian world.
Your life flashes in front of your eyes many times
when you're stuck in a world without a way to talk to
anyone you know, without any of the things you’re used
to, and no news from the outside world. You're doing
what someone wants you to do, when they want you to do
it, and how they want you to do it.
    But it was worth it!
    I was awarded an “Honor Graduate*” ribbon at
graduation and am now halfway through training to
become a Munitions System Apprentice. My training
continues in xxxxxxx, IN starting the first week in
July, and I’ll be done and back in xxxxxxxx the first
week in August, in time to relax a couple of weeks
before starting at Indiana University.
    I have been granted leave for the weekend of high school
graduation, so I hope to see most of you and I hope
all of you are having a successful final semester of
high school!

Sincerely,

Airman First Class xxxxxxx   xxxxxx


----------



## TravelTime

Luanne said:


> That article was dated July 13.  Another survey was sent out after that on July 29. I am going by an article in the Santa Fe New Mexican today.  You need to stay current.
> 
> And I apologize.  I stated that more than half responded they wanted online for the school year.  As of today, it's 50%.
> 
> https://www.santafenewmexican.com/n...cle_385300c0-d76d-11ea-a6b6-97d4988be69d.html



And 50% do not want it.


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## easyrider

My grandson is enrolled at LaSalle High School and they are planning to open normally as scheduled. There is only 300 or so people enrolled for the 9th through 12th grades so class sizes are small enough to be safe I guess.

Our local public high schools will open as scheduled but will be on something they call stage A of reopening.

Our county is still in stage 1.5 which really is just stage 1 that allowed haircuts and other things.

Bill


----------



## Luanne

TravelTime said:


> And 50% do not want it.


Your point?  If you look at the numbers Cornell provided it went from 1/3 to 1/2 in less than a month.  And if you read the article the results for several schools was much higher than 50%.

What I was more interested in was that the parents were saying they wanted online for the entire school year, not just for opening.


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## Ken555

See post 492 above for more info on this story.

Simply incompetent. This should be criminal and those responsible prosecuted for putting students (and, indirectly, their families) at risk for the inevitable transmission of C19.

We simply do not learn. Ironic, eh?

—-

Two Students Say They Were Suspended From Their Georgia High School For Posting Photos Of Crowded Hallways
The images of students packed together in hallways went viral on Twitter as the school faces scrutiny from staff and students.



> She posted the above photo with the caption, "Day two at North Paulding High School. It is just as bad. We were stopped because it was jammed. We are close enough to the point where I got pushed multiple go to second block. This is not ok. Not to mention the 10% mask rate."











						Two Students Say They Were Suspended From Their Georgia High School For Posting Photos Of Crowded Hallways
					

The images of students packed together in hallways went viral on Twitter as the school faces scrutiny from staff and students.




					www.buzzfeednews.com
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Luanne

Ken555 said:


> See post 492 above for more info on this story.
> 
> Simply incompetent. This should be criminal and those responsible prosecuted for putting students (and, indirectly, their families) at risk for the inevitable transmission of C19.
> 
> We simply do not learn. Ironic, eh?
> 
> —-
> 
> Two Students Say They Were Suspended From Their Georgia High School For Posting Photos Of Crowded Hallways
> The images of students packed together in hallways went viral on Twitter as the school faces scrutiny from staff and students.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two Students Say They Were Suspended From Their Georgia High School For Posting Photos Of Crowded Hallways
> 
> 
> The images of students packed together in hallways went viral on Twitter as the school faces scrutiny from staff and students.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.buzzfeednews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I read somewhere that the school administrator was saying the photos were taken out of context.  Really?


----------



## Ken555

Luanne said:


> I read somewhere that the school administrator was saying the photos were taken out of context. Really?



I’d like to read that... sure, I’ll read it with an open mind, but yeah, it’s hard to believe there’s any acceptable excuse for these pictures and the first hand reports of the students. 

And now the Governor of Ohio is C19 positive... and schools are supposed to be safer than Governors? Yeah, sure.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Luanne

Ken555 said:


> I’d like to read that... sure, I’ll read it with an open mind, but yeah, it’s hard to believe there’s any acceptable excuse for these pictures and the first hand reports of the students.
> 
> And now the Governor of Ohio is C19 positive... and schools are supposed to be safer than Governors? Yeah, sure.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Here is the article.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/v...xt-superintendent-says/ar-BB17BPVk?li=BBnb7Kz


----------



## Ken555

Luanne said:


> Here is the article.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/v...xt-superintendent-says/ar-BB17BPVk?li=BBnb7Kz



Thanks. Seems like the all of Georgia is complicit with this utter failure. I feel bad for the staff, the students and their families, and their communities. We all know what the inevitable outcome of such stupidity will bring. We’ve seen it elsewhere, and We. Do. Not. Learn.

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

For a small percentage of people who get Covid, it is very dangerous. However, most people do not have symptoms and, for others, the symptoms are mild. Covid is not a death sentence. Most people who get it do recover just fine. I think parents and teachers are panicking like Covid means immediate death. I have heard teachers saying “I am not willing to die in the classroom.“ This is completely exaggerated. I feel bad for the students in last year’s classrooms and this year‘s who are not getting adequate schooling and will graduate with inferior skills compared to their peers a few years younger or older.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> For a small percentage of people who get Covid, it is very dangerous. However, most people do not have symptoms and, for others, the symptoms are mild. Covid is not a death sentence. Most people who get it do recover just fine. I think parents and teachers are panicking like Covid means immediate death. I have heard teachers saying “I am not willing to die in the classroom.“ This is completely exaggerated. I feel bad for the students in last year’s classrooms and this year‘s who are not getting adequate schooling and will graduate with inferior skills compared to their peers a few years younger or older.



This rationalization must stop. 

The issue for schools is that they cannot effectively adhere to the medical experts recommendations on how to prevent and slow the spread of the disease. Accepting the spread, as you are doing and have been doing on TUG, is simply unacceptable.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Luanne

TravelTime said:


> For a small percentage of people who get Covid, it is very dangerous. However, most people do not have symptoms and, for others, the symptoms are mild. Covid is not a death sentence. Most people who get it do recover just fine. I think parents and teachers are panicking like Covid means immediate death. I have heard teachers saying “I am not willing to die in the classroom.“ This is completely exaggerated. I feel bad for the students in last year’s classrooms and this year‘s who are not getting adequate schooling and will graduate with inferior skills compared to their peers a few years younger or older.


There are a lot of factors that are involved on why people are so concerned.  Every time this subject is brought up you take your position that it's no big deal.  I get it.  You, who don't have kids in school, or don't work in a school, are not concerned.


----------



## Pathways

Ken555 said:


> Simply incompetent. This should be criminal and those responsible prosecuted for putting students (and, indirectly, their families) at risk for the inevitable transmission of C19.






Ken555 said:


> Thanks. Seems like the all of Georgia is complicit with this utter failure. I feel bad for staff, the students, and their families. We all know what the inevitable outcome of such stupidity will bring. We’ve seen it elsewhere, and We. Do. Not. Learn.
> 
> Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.



But wait.....there's more.....it's not just Georgia -  Here in Indiana we will need to build whole new prisons in which to put all the terrible people..  

That's right, most of our schools have opened or are opening.  National news (reference in an earlier thread) that 'shocker here' a student tested positive on the first day.  Duh.  Many folks were heard discussing 'why is this big news' as we waited for our tables at Chili's. It is a non event here in flyover country. 

DIL is a teacher  - does her in-school classes, (HS age) and is also doing on-line for any who choose to stay at home.  Student's (parent's really) choice. She's glad to be back with them

Quote from our State Health Commissioner: "Having a case of COVID in a school should not be a cause for panic or a reason to close," she said. "It's a reason to take action to prevent an outbreak"

I have no issues with the strong opinions from the coasts, but many here in the Midwest look at things through a different set of glasses.  We say - You do it your way, just let us do it ours. 

Wife and I have been around numerous COVID  + people in the past few months.  Know many who have been sick, sadly, a couple of deaths.  Know one 26 days on vent, 6 weeks in the ICU, somehow came out of it alive.  Truly a miracle.

For those with high risk, isolate and FOLLOW PROPER PRECAUTIONS.  The rest need to also follow proper precautions. 

I can tell you the students I have talked to are beyond happy to be back in school.  For someone of my generation (60 +), those are words I never would have used as a youth!


----------



## Pathways

Ken555 said:


> Accepting the spread, as you are doing and have been doing on TUG, is simply unacceptable



Can't you disagree without being disagreeable?  More people are with Traveltime than you realize, they just are not frequently posting as there is no point in having others shout at them.


----------



## Luanne

Pathways said:


> But wait.....there's more.....it's not just Georgia -  Here in Indiana we will need to build whole new prisons in which to put all the terrible people..
> 
> That's right, most of our schools have opened or are opening.  National news (reference in an earlier thread) that 'shocker here' a student tested positive on the first day.  Duh.  Many folks were heard discussing 'why is this big news' as we waited for our tables at Chili's. It is a non event here in flyover country.
> 
> DIL is a teacher  - does her in-school classes, (HS age) and is also doing on-line for any who choose to stay at home.  Student's (parent's really) choice. She's glad to be back with them
> 
> Quote from our State Health Commissioner: "Having a case of COVID in a school should not be a cause for panic or a reason to close," she said. "It's a reason to take action to prevent an outbreak"
> 
> I have no issues with the strong opinions from the coasts, but many here in the Midwest look at things through a different set of glasses.  We say - You do it your way, just let us do it ours.
> 
> Wife and I have been around numerous COVID  + people in the past few months.  Know many who have been sick, sadly, a couple of deaths.  Know one 26 days on vent, 6 weeks in the ICU, somehow came out of it alive.  Truly a miracle.
> 
> For those with high risk, isolate and FOLLOW PROPER PRECAUTIONS.  The rest need to also follow proper precautions.
> 
> I can tell you the students I have talked to are beyond happy to be back in school.  For someone of my generation (60 +), those are words I never would have used as a youth!


Well gosh, I'm not on the coast but I will err on the side of caution, along with my governor.


----------



## Luanne

Pathways said:


> Can't you disagree without being disagreeable?  More people are with Traveltime than you realize, they just are not frequently posting as there is no point in having others shout at them.


I'm sorry to hear that.  Maybe I'm just more vocal, but I get tired of hearing (from her) how it's no big deal.  In Santa Fe, and a lot of New Mexico (and in other places I would think as well) there are multi-generational families living together. The child, who may not be in danger, can easily transmit the virus to family members.  If others aren't concerned, so be it, but for those of us who are, maybe we'll just keep on being "disagreeable" as you put it.  Parents I have talked to in Santa Fe are all pretty much of the opinion that the kids should be in school.......but not until it's safe, and that's not yet.


----------



## bbodb1

With nearly 5 months to prepare, how can schools not be prepared to avoid situations where crowds build.


----------



## TravelTime

I knew I would get yelled at and attacked for having my opinion. That’s fine. One day we will look back on this and see that people were hysterical about Covid. Way out of proportion to the actual risk.

BTW, I have worked in a school in the past. I do not have kids but I pay taxes for the kids to get educated so I have a vested interest in this topic.


----------



## Pathways

Luanne said:


> Your point?  If you look at the numbers Cornell provided it went from 1/3 to 1/2 in less than a month.  And if you read the article the results for several schools was much higher than 50%.
> 
> What I was more interested in was that the parents were saying they wanted online for the entire school year, not just for opening.



What is more interesting, ( notice I said interesting, not judging), Is to break down the numbers where the school concerns come from.  Urban areas around where I live (where the test scores are the lowest) most don't want to go back to in-person instruction.  Suburbs/rural (where the test scores are highest), it's hard to find a group big enough for a poker game who want the kids to stay at home.


----------



## TravelTime

Luanne said:


> I'm sorry to hear that.  Maybe I'm just more vocal, but I get tired of hearing (from her) how it's no big deal.  In Santa Fe, and a lot of New Mexico (and in other places I would think as well) there are multi-generational families living together. The child, who may not be in danger, can easily transmit the virus to family members.  If others aren't concerned, so be it, but for those of us who are, maybe we'll just keep on being "disagreeable" as you put it.  Parents I have talked to in Santa Fe are all pretty much of the opinion that the kids should be in school.......but not until it's safe, and that's not yet.



I did not say it is no big deal. That is your interpretation. I said the risk is exaggerated. People keep putting words in my mouth.


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> This rationalization must stop.
> 
> The issue for schools is that they cannot effectively adhere to the medical experts recommendations on how to prevent and slow the spread of the disease. Accepting the spread, as you are doing and have been doing on TUG, is simply unacceptable.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



It is not unacceptable. It is my opinion. I think education is very important. I am not the only person who has this opinion. Most parents I know would like their kids to do school in person, in spite of the virus being around.

TUG is becoming like a freedom of speech censorship. Aren’t people allowed to have their opinions anymore? I am not killing anyone with an opinion. Nothing is changing due to my opinion. It does not even change my behavior. I still stay home and wear a mask the few times I go out.

You should be attacking the people who are spreading the virus.


----------



## Luanne

TravelTime said:


> It is not unacceptable. It is my opinion. I think education is very important. I am not the only person who has this opinion. Most parents I know would like their kids to do school in person, in spite of the virus being around.


As I said, the parents I've talked to, both in Santa Fe and elsewhere, would desperately love for their kids to be back in the classroom.  BUT not at the expense of their child's health, their family's health, and the health of the school staff.  I am not the only one with THIS opinion.


----------



## Pathways

Luanne said:


> I'm sorry to hear that.  Maybe I'm just more vocal, but I get tired of hearing (from her) how it's no big deal.  In Santa Fe, and a lot of New Mexico (and in other places I would think as well) there are multi-generational families living together. The child, who may not be in danger, can easily transmit the virus to family members.  If others aren't concerned, so be it, but for those of us who are, maybe we'll just keep on being "disagreeable" as you put it.  Parents I have talked to in Santa Fe are all pretty much of the opinion that the kids should be in school.......but not until it's safe, and that's not yet.



That comment was meant for statements like I referenced.  For the record, I agree with most of your comments, especially taking into account your specific area.  Like I said, to each his own.  I don't care if another State totally shuts down. Each needs to do what they feel is best for their group.  But when someone tries to brow beat their opinion on others, that's when it becomes unacceptable and bullying.


----------



## bbodb1

TravelTime said:


> ...TUG is becoming like a freedom of speech censorship. Aren’t people allowed to have their opinions anymore? I am not killing anyone with an opinion. Nothing is changing due to my opinion...



Where is that standing ovation meme when I need it....


----------



## bbodb1

Pathways said:


> What is more interesting, ( notice I said interesting, not judging), Is to break down the numbers where the school concerns come from.  Urban areas around where I live (where the test scores are the lowest) most don't want to go back to in-person instruction.  Suburbs/rural (where the test scores are highest), it's hard to find a group big enough for a poker game who want the kids to stay at home.


I think _*in general*_ the concern is higher where the schools are more crowded.  And that usually means urban areas. 
As someone who is about to return to the front lines, I am concerned we have not done enough to be properly and thoroughly prepared.  We shall see soon.


----------



## bluehende

Pathways said:


> Can't you disagree without being disagreeable?  More people are with Traveltime than you realize, they just are not frequently posting as there is no point in having others shout at them.


Yet it was ok for the poster to call teachers panicky and over reacting when in fact millions of teachers are in the at risk category. As usual people are very quick to tell others their fears and concerns are unfounded when 160,000 people have died.  No one should be telling anyone else what risk they should take.


----------



## Ken555

Pathways said:


> Can't you disagree without being disagreeable?  More people are with Traveltime than you realize, they just are not frequently posting as there is no point in having others shout at them.



Your opinion is that my post was disagreeable... obviously not everyone agrees with you (since so far at least several others have liked it). Perhaps you should consider not making this personal and instead comment on the issue itself. 

I contend that there are those who are rationalizing the acceptance of Covid-19, which is not a good sign. Also, there are those who believe it's okay for schools to open without proper safeguards. The end result is obvious - more spread. Of course it's going to continue spreading here and there regardless, but why are we encouraging it in such stupid ways?


----------



## Pathways

bbodb1 said:


> think _*in general*_ the concern is higher where the schools are more crowded. And that usually means urban areas.
> As someone who is about to return to the front lines, I am concerned we have not done enough to be properly and thoroughly prepared. We shall see soon.



No disagreement here as I have no knowledge _*in general.*_ 

But in my state, just the opposite is true.  Urban areas are generally under 50% capacity. (They cry about needing more money but won't close schools that are like a ghost town).  In the suburbs, we are building a new elementary school every 4 years, and each one seems to be over capacity on the day it opens.  

Please be safe, and thank you for what you do!  Have you shared (sorry, I don't get on the lounge threads that much) at what level your skills are utilized?


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> It is not unacceptable. It is my opinion. I think education is very important. I am not the only person who has this opinion. Most parents I know would like their kids to do school in person, in spite of the virus being around.
> 
> TUG is becoming like a freedom of speech censorship. Aren’t people allowed to have their opinions anymore? I am not killing anyone with an opinion. Nothing is changing due to my opinion. It does not even change my behavior. I still stay home and wear a mask the few times I go out.
> 
> You should be attacking the people who are spreading the virus.


I am one of those parents.


----------



## Luanne

Cornell said:


> I am one of those parents.


I doubt if anyone disagrees that all/most parents want their kids to return to the classrooms.   But not all/most parents want them to return to the classrooms right now.

Even when your school district was going to allow students to return in person didn't you, and your daughter, decide that wasn't the correct place for her to be?


----------



## Pathways

bluehende said:


> No one should be telling anyone else what risk they should take.



Which is pretty much what I say in every post. Each needs to made the best decision based on their own circumstances.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> I knew I would get yelled at and attacked for having my opinion. That’s fine. One day we will look back on this and see that people were hysterical about Covid. Way out of proportion to the actual risk.



The word hysterical has been used on TUG previously in regards to those of us who believe in science and following the scientific recommendation on containing spread (and not politicians). Just so we're clear on the word you used here... see the definition below.

My posts today in this thread have been civil, restrained, and direct. Qualifying them as hysterical is wrong. 

As for "people"'s response to Covid being hysterical... I just don't get this. As of today, we have had over 162,000 deaths in America due to this disease. At what point will you consider adhering to scientific recommendations on slowing the spread appropriate? After 200,000 deaths? 300,000? Just because the majority of people who contract C19 don't die (though many are now experiencing heart and other issues...), it doesn't mean that our society shoudn't take this seriously and do everything possible to slow the spread.









						Definition of HYSTERICAL
					

of, relating to, or marked by hysteria; feeling or showing extreme and unrestrained emotion; very funny… See the full definition




					www.merriam-webster.com


----------



## Ken555

bbodb1 said:


> I think _*in general*_ the concern is higher where the schools are more crowded.  And that usually means urban areas.
> As someone who is about to return to the front lines, I am concerned we have not done enough to be properly and thoroughly prepared.  We shall see soon.



Are rural schools more able to adhere to social distancing? I haven't personally seen many rural schools, but my understanding is that schools generally are built to support the anticipated number of students, with the majority of schools having a similar number of students per classroom. So, just because there may be less total students at a rural school, they may not be more able (in fact, they may be less able) to accommodate social distancing requirements. Am I mistaken? (Please do correct me if wrong; unlike you, I have no direct education work experience).


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> You should be attacking the people who are spreading the virus.



Sorry, on TUG I find it very appropriate to respond to those who support misguided and obviously unsafe recommendations. 

This is not an attack. I don't attack. I comment. Word choice is important.


----------



## Pathways

Luanne said:


> I doubt if anyone disagrees that all/most parents want their kids to return to the classrooms.   But not all/most parents want them to return to the classrooms right now.



That's what great in my neck of the woods.  PARENTS are given the *choice*. The schools are in session, come if you want.  If you want because of (Insert literally any reason here) you can keep your student at home and we will provide instruction. 100% of students around my general area are provided with ipads/laptops included in their book rental.

The only thing the schools are limiting is a student going multiple times from in-person to remote and back


----------



## Pathways

Ken555 said:


> Your opinion is that my post was disagreeable



Actually, not your 'post' inclusive.  Just the last sentence


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> I am one of those parents.



We all feel for your personal issues over the last few months in regards to your daughter's schooling experience. Like many others, I was glad when you found a good outcome for the upcoming school year.

And like others, I am certain there are many parents who believe schools should open even during a pandemic. This seems contrary to the facts, given your own personal reviews of your local school preparedness, and the national, local news and other reports which support the belief that schools are simply unable to accommodate all the myriad of requirements to open safely (from social distancing to ventilation, windows, and more). 

We all should support objectivity as much as possible, especially during such a trying time as a pandemic. Objectivity is difficult even in the best of times, and sadly now is one of the worst times in American history for the majority to be objective.


----------



## Luanne

Pathways said:


> That's what great in my neck of the woods.  PARENTS are given the *choice*. The schools are in session, come if you want.  If you want because of (Insert literally any reason here) you can keep your student at home and we will provide instruction. 100% of students around my general area are provided with ipads/laptops included in their book rental.
> 
> The only thing the schools are limiting is a student going multiple times from in-person to remote and back


New Mexico put out a 25 page plan for schools.  It included everything from completely online to completely in person, with a hybrid version as well.  It also had what measurements needed to be in place for each of these scenarios.  In addition each school district needed to develop their own plan.  Where the state said all classes in public schools would be online until Labor Day, the Santa Fe School district said online until October 15.


----------



## Pathways

Luanne said:


> But not all/most parents want them to return to the classrooms right now.



Just in the interest of facts. (again, I'm not making a judgement on this)  I just checked with my DIL. At her high school, 84% of students are attending.  16% are remote for the first semester.


----------



## Luanne

Pathways said:


> Just in the interest of facts. (again, I'm not making a judgement on this)  I just checked with my DIL. At her high school, 84% of students are attending.  16% are remote for the first semester.


I would be interested in hearing, as time passes, how this is working out.


----------



## Cornell

Luanne said:


> I doubt if anyone disagrees that all/most parents want their kids to return to the classrooms.   But not all/most parents want them to return to the classrooms right now.
> 
> Even when your school district was going to allow students to return in person didn't you, and your daughter, decide that wasn't the correct place for her to be?


Yes - We had decided together to have her go to school.  Had nothing to do with concern over her getting C19.  Rather, being a teenager with assigned seating a lunch, put into a cohort for contact tracing, etc. etc is no way to live or to be educated.  

Perhaps where you live the majority of families don't want their kids back in school, but I can say confidently that is not the case here in the suburbs of Chicago.


----------



## Cornell

@Ken555 You seem to believe that you have supreme objectivity on this topic and the rest of us don't.


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> The word hysterical has been used on TUG previously in regards to those of us who believe in science and following the scientific recommendation on containing spread (and not politicians). Just so we're clear on the word you used here... see the definition below.
> 
> My posts today in this thread have been civil, restrained, and direct. Qualifying them as hysterical is wrong.
> 
> As for "people"'s response to Covid being hysterical... I just don't get this. As of today, we have had over 162,000 deaths in America due to this disease. At what point will you consider adhering to scientific recommendations on slowing the spread appropriate? After 200,000 deaths? 300,000? Just because the majority of people who contract C19 don't die (though many are now experiencing heart and other issues...), it doesn't mean that our society shoudn't take this seriously and do everything possible to slow the spread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Definition of HYSTERICAL
> 
> 
> of, relating to, or marked by hysteria; feeling or showing extreme and unrestrained emotion; very funny… See the full definition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.merriam-webster.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 24574



I think the word hysteria is accurate. I follow the recommended guidelines and encourage everyone to do so. That does not mean I think Covid is a guaranteed killer. Personally I am still not too concerned about my health but I understand that others are in a different situation than me and not as healthy and more at risk. I am just not prone to extreme health anxiety. I have other types of anxiety but health anxiety is not one of them.


----------



## Luanne

Cornell said:


> Yes - We had decided together to have her go to school.  Had nothing to do with concern over her getting C19.  Rather, being a teenager with assigned seating a lunch, put into a cohort for contact tracing, etc. etc is no way to live or to be educated.
> 
> Perhaps where you live the majority of families don't want their kids back in school, but I can say confidently that is not the case here in the suburbs of Chicago.


And that is all I was pointing out in my original post.  What the parents in the school district in my area were saying, and what their preferences [at this point in time] were.


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> Perhaps where you live the majority of families don't want their kids back in school, but I can say confidently that is not the case here in the suburbs of Chicago.



I'd like to see more info on this. A quick search showed this survey, but I question it's accuracy due to the low numbers.









						Chicago Parents' Biggest Back-to-School COVID Concerns - Chicago Parent
					

We asked parents their thoughts.




					www.chicagoparent.com


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> @Ken555 You seem to believe that you have supreme objectivity on this topic and the rest of us don't.



No, that's not it. I just constantly try to be objective about issues, especially difficult issues. I don't often see that in other posts on TUG.

ETA: this is often why I ask for links to articles or sources to support a particular position. I don't just want your opinion (which hopefully is objective), but I want the underlying source(s) so that I may learn more myself.


----------



## Cornell

@Ken555 Chicago Parent is hardly an authoritative publication.  It's a feel good publication that serves as a glorified advertiser for children's activities and facilities.


----------



## Luanne

Cornell said:


> @Ken555 Chicago Parent is hardly an authoritative publication.  It's a feel good publication that serves as a glorified advertiser for children's activities and facilities.


Do you have a link to a better source?  I'm curious, not trying to be adversarial.  Maybe something from your school board?


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> @Ken555 Chicago Parent is hardly an authoritative publication.  It's a feel good publication that serves as a glorified advertiser for children's activities and facilities.



Ah, ok. Let's ignore that. 

Do you have any other local publications that have done surveys on this issue? If so, please post. Alternatively, how to you support your contention that most people in the Chicago suburbs support students going to school?


----------



## Cornell

"Gradek’s optimism that her neighborhood schools would reopen this fall was also buoyed by the results of a recent School District 25 survey, which found that around 75% of parents supported either an in-person or hybrid plan, with remote learning trailing as the least popular option in third place. "



https://www.chicagotribune.com/coro...0200804-midvy4jisndm7oo2enuhsfwixq-story.html


----------



## Pathways

Ken555 said:


> Are rural schools more able to adhere to social distancing? I haven't personally seen many rural schools, but my understanding is that schools generally are built to support the anticipated number of students, with the majority of schools having a similar number of students per classroom. So, just because there may be less total students at a rural school, they may not be more able (in fact, they may be less able) to accommodate social distancing requirements. Am I mistaken? (Please do correct me if wrong; unlike you, I have no direct education work experience).



I will address some of this at least for my area as I serve on a building commission for a local district. (Remember, this stuff varies wildly as states fund their schools differently)

Most individual schools we build are sized for the numbers of students that a staff can handle.  IOW-Only one principle, one counselor, one media specialist etc at the lower grades.  Target classroom sizes of 20-26.  The expense is not in the building, it is in the staff.  More staff not directly in front of a student is dead weight.

As the student numbers build/decline, we build another school or re-district the students to maintain levels.

High school level is where all bets are off b/c of the expense of maintaining a high level curriculum. AP classes, IP diploma etc. The bricks/mortar is much more expensive at the HS level, plus, have you ever tried to redistrict high school students?  _Not happening_.  So the school board hires demographic experts to give 5, 10, and 15 yr outlooks, and you plan based on those numbers.  And trust me, they are normally *wildly* off.

In a truly rural district (Large area, one high school) the ease of SD will vary wildly from one town to another as one school may be overcrowded while the next has empty rooms


----------



## Cornell

Glenview, Northbrook district officials share tentative plans for a return to school in the fall
					

School officials are exploring their choices between in-person classes, remote learning and hybrid options for the fall.




					www.chicagotribune.com


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> "Gradek’s optimism that her neighborhood schools would reopen this fall was also buoyed by the results of a recent School District 25 survey, which found that around 75% of parents supported either an in-person or hybrid plan, with remote learning trailing as the least popular option in third place. "
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.chicagotribune.com/coro...0200804-midvy4jisndm7oo2enuhsfwixq-story.html



That's helpful, but lacks any specifics about the survey numbers. You work in that field, right? So you know in order to evaluate such reports we really should have more data.

And... the rest of the article is interesting, too. 



> Officials in District 25, Barrington District 220, Wheeling-based District 21, Plainfield District 202 and Stevenson and Evanston Township high schools, among others, have all reverted from in-person or hybrid plans to an all-remote start to the new year, deciding the risks of bringing students and teachers together are too high with COVID-19 still far from contained.


----------



## Luanne

Cornell said:


> "Gradek’s optimism that her neighborhood schools would reopen this fall was also buoyed by the results of a recent School District 25 survey, which found that around 75% of parents supported either an in-person or hybrid plan, with remote learning trailing as the least popular option in third place. "
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.chicagotribune.com/coro...0200804-midvy4jisndm7oo2enuhsfwixq-story.html


Thank you.


----------



## Ken555

Pathways said:


> I will address some of this at least for my area as I serve on a building commission for a local district. (Remember, this stuff varies wildly as states fund their schools differently)
> 
> Most individual schools we build are sized for the numbers of students that a staff can handle.  IOW-Only one principle, one counselor, one media specialist etc at the lower grades.  Target classroom sizes of 20-26.  The expense is not in the building, it is in the staff.  More staff not directly in front of a student is dead weight.
> 
> At the student numbers build/decline, we build another school or re-district the students to maintain levels.
> 
> High school level is where all bets are off b/c of the expense of maintaining a high level curriculum. AP classes, IP diploma etc. The bricks/mortar is much more expensive at the HS level, plus, have you ever tried to redistrict high school students?  _Not happening_.  So the school board hires demographic experts to give 5, 10, and 15 yr outlooks, and you plan based on those numbers.  And trust me, they are normally *wildly* off



Thanks for the comment. 

This simply reaffirms my belief that schools, even rural schools, may be unable to satisfactorily adhere to experts recommendations on social distancing, ventilation, and other concerns. If you disagree, please explain.


----------



## Cornell

Ken555 said:


> That's helpful, but lacks any specifics about the survey numbers. You work in that field, right? So you know in order to evaluate such reports we really should have more data.
> 
> And... the rest of the article is interesting, too.


Give me a break.  Just because the Tribune doesn't report the sample size doesn't mean the survey isn't valid.  They are a newspaper - not a scientific journal.


----------



## Pathways

bluehende said:


> Yet it was ok for the poster to call teachers panicky and over reacting when in fact millions of teachers are in the at risk category. As usual people are very quick to tell others their fears and concerns are unfounded when 160,000 people have died.  No one should be telling anyone else what risk they should take.



OK - you got me, I not following in depth ALL the posts.  Many I don't agree with also.  I should have included the one I was referencing when I said many agree. I shall endeavor to be more accurate.


----------



## bbodb1

Ken555 said:


> Are rural schools more able to adhere to social distancing? I haven't personally seen many rural schools, but my understanding is that schools generally are built to support the anticipated number of students, with the majority of schools having a similar number of students per classroom. So, just because there may be less total students at a rural school, they may not be more able (in fact, they may be less able) to accommodate social distancing requirements. Am I mistaken? (Please do correct me if wrong; unlike you, I have no direct education work experience).



Again, generally speaking, rural schools _tend_ to be less crowded mostly as a result of people (famalies) moving toward more urban areas over the past several years as our national population was pushing more toward the urban. In rural schools, there tends to be more hall space - more space (per student) in general as rural school student numbers have dipped in recent years (just mainly due to fewer folks living in rural areas, therefore fewer kids in school, more space to use on those buildings). It was (and is) not by some grand design....

You made a point a few weeks ago about space utilization (while looking back to how education was handled in the 1918 pandemic) and I was hoping our school would take advantage of some space (even indoor and temperature controlled) as part of an effort in being creative to reduce class sizes in existing rooms (and therefore, create more space per student).  Sadly, to date, they have not done this because of a lack of staff to cover the additional classes (and no willingness to increase staff numbers).  With almost 5 months to prepare for reopening, I would have hoped some districts in this area would have been proactive and added staff as part of an effort to reduce class sizes.  That has not occurred.

While I want reopening to be safe and to get back into the regular rhythm school brings, my hopes are not high.  
This does give me an idea for a different thread though....


----------



## needvaca

I’m a Chicago suburbs resident and I can attest that the majority of parents want our kids to go back to school. Our very large district just did a 2nd survey last week and results showed that 86% of district families responded and 85% of them want in person school for our kids. 
I cannot emphasize enough how “essential” I see in person education for my 4 kids. Elearning is/was horrible for young children. They NEED school for their educational, psychological, spiritual, well being.  I could list hundreds of reasons with lots of scientific support.  I fully understand the COVID risks, but school is that essential to my family (and most of my well-educated, reasonable, caring friends in town and neighboring suburbs. 
Having said that, we want strict adherence to our state’s mask mandate and social distance policy. We want testing and lots of rules and precautions. No exceptions. I will back teachers in the classroom 100% and plan on emailing them saying I will personally buy any materials they need/want to make their classroom as safe as possible.


----------



## Pathways

Ken555 said:


> Thanks for the comment.
> 
> This simply reaffirms my belief that schools, even rural schools, may be unable to satisfactorily adhere to experts recommendations on social distancing, ventilation, and other concerns. If you disagree, please explain.



Agree 1000%.   Key words, 'may'  'experts'  'recommendations' 'other concerns'

Every district in every state is different.  This is why I will not disagree with not opening schools in your area or anywhere except where I live.  

The 'experts' (here - the State Board of Heath)  in my state has been working all summer with school districts to advise and help plan for a safe reopening.  Binders full of studies and docs are used to 'hopefully' plan for every scenario.  IDK, haven't been involved with any of that.  I only hear from people I know in the system.  They are comfortable with the plans (Except for the teachers union - state level only, the local teachers union is happy)  and are teaching. 

I will withhold judgement until the end of the first semester.


----------



## Cornell

needvaca said:


> I’m a Chicago suburbs resident and I can attest that the majority of parents want our kids to go back to school. Our very large district just did a 2nd survey last week and results showed that 86% of district families responded and 85% of them want in person school for our kids.
> I cannot emphasize enough how “essential” I see in person education for my 4 kids. Elearning is/was horrible for young children. They NEED school for their educational, psychological, spiritual, well being.  I could list hundreds of reasons with lots of scientific support.  I fully understand the COVID risks, but school is that essential to my family (and most of my well-educated, reasonable, caring friends in town and neighboring suburbs.
> Having said that, we want strict adherence to our state’s mask mandate and social distance policy. We want testing and lots of rules and precautions. No exceptions. I will back teachers in the classroom 100% and plan on emailing them saying I will personally buy any materials they need/want to make their classroom as safe as possible.


I am very , very active in the "keep schools open" movement in the Chicago suburbs.  NO ONE that I know is fighting or opposing masks in school or thinks school should be "back to the old way" of doing things.


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> Give me a break.  Just because the Tribune doesn't report the sample size doesn't mean the survey isn't valid.  They are a newspaper - not a scientific journal.



So I shouldn't be critical and hold out for more details? Even newspapers tends to include the sample size normally, so I'm surprised they didn't in this case. Don't take this personally...


----------



## Ken555

bbodb1 said:


> Again, generally speaking, rural schools _tend_ to be less crowded mostly as a result of people (famalies) moving toward more urban areas over the past several years as our national population was pushing more toward the urban. In rural schools, there tends to be more hall space - more space (per student) in general as rural school student numbers have dipped in recent years (just mainly due to fewer folks living in rural areas, therefore fewer kids in school, more space to use on those buildings). It was (and is) not by some grand design....
> 
> You made a point a few weeks ago about space utilization (while looking back to how education was handled in the 1918 pandemic) and I was hoping our school would take advantage of some space (even indoor and temperature controlled) as part of an effort in being creative to reduce class sizes in existing rooms (and therefore, create more space per student).  Sadly, to date, they have not done this because of a lack of staff to cover the additional classes (and no willingness to increase staff numbers).  With almost 5 months to prepare for reopening, I would have hoped some districts in this area would have been proactive and added staff as part of an effort to reduce class sizes.  That has not occurred.
> 
> While I want reopening to be safe and to get back into the regular rhythm school brings, my hopes are not high.
> This does give me an idea for a different thread though....



Thanks for the details. Yes, more space would naturally be of help. We really should learn more from the experience of past epidemics.


----------



## Ken555

needvaca said:


> I’m a Chicago suburbs resident and I can attest that the majority of parents want our kids to go back to school. Our very large district just did a 2nd survey last week and results showed that 86% of district families responded and 85% of them want in person school for our kids.



Thanks. Did they report how many people responded to the survey(s)?


----------



## needvaca

Ken555 said:


> That's helpful, but lacks any specifics about the survey numbers. You work in that field, right? So you know in order to evaluate such reports we really should have more data.
> 
> And... the rest of the article is interesting, too.


I follow this very closely in Chicago. Districts are caving in because the teachers unions are fighting it so hard and threatening to strike. The teachers unions in IL are extremely strong. (I have some friends and family in them.)  
Nothing has changed in the underlying IL COVID data to cause the shift to remote.  The governor, CDC, etc still recommend in person learning if you meet certain criteria which IL does


----------



## Cornell

needvaca said:


> I follow this very closely in Chicago. Districts are caving in because the teachers unions are fighting it so hard and threatening to strike. The teachers unions in IL are extremely strong. (I have some friends and family in them.)
> Nothing has changed in the underlying IL COVID data to cause the shift to remote.  The governor, CDC, etc still recommend in person learning if you meet certain criteria which IL does


You are 100 percent spot on with your assessment


----------



## Ken555

needvaca said:


> I follow this very closely in Chicago. Districts are caving in because the teachers unions are fighting it so hard and threatening to strike. The teachers unions in IL are extremely strong. (I have some friends and family in them.)
> Nothing has changed in the underlying IL COVID data to cause the shift to remote.  The governor, CDC, etc still recommend in person learning if you meet certain criteria which IL does



Is this article accurate?



> IEA President Kathi Griffin said the change of heart came because there is no system to assess or enforce health and safety measures for districts' reopening plans.











						Illinois' largest teachers union sets up its own panel to judge school reopening safety
					

The state's largest teachers union is creating a medical review panel it says will judge whether individual school districts' reopening plans are safe.




					www.dailyherald.com


----------



## Luanne

Our governor is giving her weekly briefing this afternoon.  It will be interesting to see if she has any reaction to this survey in Santa Fe.


----------



## needvaca

Ken555 said:


> Thanks. Did they report how many people responded to the survey(s)?


Our district is 8000+ students, and 86% responded,  so parents of 6880+ students want in person


----------



## Pathways

needvaca said:


> I’m a Chicago suburbs resident and I can attest that the majority of parents want our kids to go back to school. Our very large district just did a 2nd survey last week and results showed that 86% of district families responded and 85% of them want in person school for our kids.



Ok, after I just noted that at my DIL's HS they have 84% in-person actually attending,  your numbers will be looked at as highly suspect! 

You better back those up!

Oops, I see you kinda just did


----------



## travelpager

TravelTime said:


> For a small percentage of people who get Covid, it is very dangerous. However, most people do not have symptoms and, for others, the symptoms are mild. Covid is not a death sentence. Most people who get it do recover just fine. I think parents and teachers are panicking like Covid means immediate death. I have heard teachers saying “I am not willing to die in the classroom.“ This is completely exaggerated. I feel bad for the students in last year’s classrooms and this year‘s who are not getting adequate schooling and will graduate with inferior skills compared to their peers a few years younger or older.



Oh, God, please stop.  I've lost 5 acquaintances nationwide in 5 months.  You should never know such loss. Unless (and even if) you've got the drop on who will live, who will die, and who will live with serious lifelong and/or financial (treatment ain't free) impairment, please forgive my inclination to honor my experience of personal loss, a baseline knowledge of high-school level biology, and recommendations of highly credentialed professionals over what I will interpret as your attempt to assuage (rather than inform).  Please, PLEASE link to sources that support the not-a-death-sentence-for-enough-people-to-matter suggestion (or any portion thereof).  Doesn't have to be peer-reviewed or show up on PubMed and I won't deny any first, second or third-hand experience you have had with the virus if you won't deny mine. Maybe you live somewhere where numbers reinforce your belief. What a blessing for you.  Thanks to C19, more than 200 Texans draw the "ultimate short straw" every day. Do me this favor, please: please check your crystal ball and let me know how my asthmatic son will fare so I can quit worrying. After that, can you check on my neighbors? She's a teacher and healthy; he works from home and is not particularly healthy but prefers not to die at this time. If you would, please give us some hint whether they can blow off all this C19 drama.

Apologies if I sound shrill or harsh, but you must understand how your statements play to those of us who have lost and/or who never realized that asthma or any of a number of otherwise manageable conditions would get them kicked to the curb if the alternative would mean so much bother.  If you don't know, you don't know.  If you DO know, do tell (I'll prep my list) so that we can more efficiently double down on protections where necessary and achieve your level of relaxation and peace.

P.S. Feel free to call me hysterical, etc. but know that, once calm, I WILL read whatever resources you provide to support your point. In fact, nothing would soothe me faster than credible evidence that C19 is nothing to worry about because it will only take out, oh, I don't know, only pedophiles, serial killers and whatever other lives might be construed as without value. Yeah, that's just the ticket. Finally, if it helps, anyone who knows me knows that, in person, I could and would convey every word at no more than moderate volume. Shouting is rude and generally counterproductive.


----------



## Pathways

needvaca said:


> Our district is 8000+ students, and 86% responded,  so parents of 6880+ students want in person



Actually, before others ding you, 6880 responded, 5848 was for in person. Correct?


----------



## needvaca

Ken555 said:


> Is this article accurate?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Illinois' largest teachers union sets up its own panel to judge school reopening safety
> 
> 
> The state's largest teachers union is creating a medical review panel it says will judge whether individual school districts' reopening plans are safe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailyherald.com


I don’t know. All I know is over the last month, everything in the Chicago news and all the facebook school parents pages and town groups are overrun with all the teachers unions making highly emotional pleas to keep schools closed. It makes good headlines so it’s all over the media here. 
Yet, neither they nor the ISBE, nor the schools are have any detailed plans on what remote learning will look like. Teachers admit they don’t know and haven’t been given any guidance yet. Our district is having 3 days of prof education  for teachers right before school opens for this. 3 days.  That’s it.


----------



## needvaca

Pathways said:


> Actually, before others ding you, 6880 responded, 5848 was for in person. Correct?


Guess so. I’m on my phone. Gotta go back to work now.


----------



## needvaca

Pathways said:


> Ok, after I just noted that at my DIL's HS they have 84% in-person actually attending,  your numbers will be looked at as highly suspect!
> 
> You better back those up!
> 
> Oops, I see you kinda just did



So many teachers, grandparents, outsiders, etc opining on back to school. 
You’re not hearing much from the PARENTS who really want to go back to school, because we’re all busy WORKING and trying to keep our jobs. We’ve been back in the work world for a couple months now. My office is open full time. 
Masks, distance, wash hands. 
Gotta go now


----------



## Ken555

needvaca said:


> I don’t know. All I know is over the last month, everything in the Chicago news and all the facebook school parents pages and town groups are overrun with all the teachers unions making highly emotional pleas to keep schools closed. It makes good headlines so it’s all over the media here.
> Yet, neither they nor the ISBE, nor the schools are have any detailed plans on what remote learning will look like. Teachers admit they don’t know and haven’t been given any guidance yet. Our district is having 3 days of prof education  for teachers right before school opens for this. 3 days.  That’s it.



Sounds incompetent. Yet more reason not to reopen.

But if the teachers union is accurate that "there is no system to assess or enforce health and safety measures for districts' reopening plans" then it's a valid concern. It would not surprise me to find school officials, in a month or two, saying that they regret reopening after significant spread occurred "because we were not monitoring close enough" or "there were many asymptomatic spreaders" or "we didn't realize how bad it could be". I'm just naturally pessimistic that we should trust schools to handle this correctly, and have yet to see any evidence to support the belief that they will do so correctly and consistently. The pictures from Georgia this week simply reinforce my current opinion that reopening will directly lead to more community spread. I really hope I'm wrong. I will be very glad if schools reopen safely, I'm just not expecting it.


----------



## Cornell

needvaca said:


> So many teachers, grandparents, outsiders, etc opining on back to school.
> You’re not hearing much from the PARENTS who really want to go back to school, because we’re all busy WORKING and trying to keep our jobs. We’ve been back in the work world for a couple months now. My office is open full time.
> Masks, distance, wash hands.
> Gotta go now


Yup . And my daughter and most of her peers are busy working in the public sector .


----------



## needvaca

Here’s a slide. I cutoff the school names for privacy. The schools with lowest percentages are the public preschool and transistor a program. 
Parents want school


----------



## geekette

....Yet, neither they nor the ISBE, nor the schools are have any detailed plans on what remote learning will look like. Teachers admit they don’t know and haven’t been given any guidance yet. Our district is having 3 days of prof education  for teachers right before school opens for this. 3 days.  That’s it. 


YIKES.

I would probably protest "get out there, it'll be fine!  just wing it!"


----------



## needvaca

Ken555 said:


> Sounds incompetent. Yet more reason not to reopen.
> 
> But if the teachers union is accurate that "there is no system to assess or enforce health and safety measures for districts' reopening plans" then it's a valid concern. It would not surprise me to find school officials, in a month or two, saying that they regret reopening after significant spread occurred "because we were not monitoring close enough" or "there were many asymptomatic spreaders" or "we didn't realize how bad it could be". I'm just naturally pessimistic that we should trust schools to handle this correctly, and have yet to see any evidence to support the belief that they will do so correctly and consistently. The pictures from Georgia this week simply reinforce my current opinion that reopening will directly lead to more community spread. I really hope I'm wrong. I will be very glad if schools reopen safely, I'm just not expecting it.


Georgia is not Illinois (thank God). Polar opposite really.


----------



## needvaca

geekette said:


> ....Yet, neither they nor the ISBE, nor the schools are have any detailed plans on what remote learning will look like. Teachers admit they don’t know and haven’t been given any guidance yet. Our district is having 3 days of prof education  for teachers right before school opens for this. 3 days.  That’s it.
> 
> 
> YIKES.
> 
> I would probably protest "get out there, it'll be fine!  just wing it!"


I mustn’t be explaining myself well
There only 3 days of REMOTE learning prep

I’m not worried about in person. The district published Over 100 pages of how that will work and safety standards. That is what they are ready for.  NOT remote learning


----------



## TravelTime

travelpager said:


> Oh, God, please stop.  I've lost 5 acquaintances nationwide in 5 months.  You should never know such loss. Unless (and even if) you've got the drop on who will live, who will die, and who will live with serious lifelong and/or financial (treatment ain't free) impairment, please forgive my inclination to honor my experience of personal loss, a baseline knowledge of high-school level biology, and recommendations of highly credentialed professionals over what I will interpret as your attempt to assuage (rather than inform).  Please, PLEASE link to sources that support the not-a-death-sentence statement.  Doesn't have to be peer-reviewed or show up on PubMed and I won't deny any first, second or third-hand experience you have had with the virus if you won't deny mine. Maybe you live somewhere where numbers reinforce your belief. What a blessing for you.  Thanks to C19, more than 200 Texans draw the "ultimate short straw" every day. Do me this favor, please: please check your crystal ball and let me know how my asthmatic son will fare so I can quit worrying. After that, can you check on my neighbors? She's a teacher and healthy; he works from home and is not particularly healthy but prefers not to die at this time. If you would, please give us some hint whether they can blow off all this C19 drama.
> 
> Apologies if I sound shrill or harsh, but you must understand how your statements play to those of us who have lost and/or who never realized that asthma or any of a number of otherwise manageable conditions would get them kicked to the curb if the alternative would mean so much bother.  If you don't know, you don't know.  If you DO know, do tell (I'll prep my list) so that we can more efficiently double down on protections where necessary and achieve your level of relaxation and peace.
> 
> P.S. Feel free to call me hysterical, etc. but know that, once calm, I WILL read whatever resources you provide to support your point. In fact, nothing would soothe me faster than credible evidence that C19 is nothing to worry about because it will only take out, oh, I don't know, only pedophiles, serial killers and whatever other lives might be construed as without value. Yeah, that's just the ticket.



Since you asked: 95% to 97% of people with Covid recover. Covid is not a death sentence. This is just one of many articles stating that Covid is not a death sentence. 









						Chief medical officer: COVID-19 is not a death sentence
					

A Mid-Michigan health official is clearing up some confusion about the recovery rate of COVID-19.




					www.wnem.com


----------



## travelpager

Pathways said:


> Can't you disagree without being disagreeable?  More people are with Traveltime than you realize, they just are not frequently posting as there is no point in having others shout at them.



Wait - what shouting? Help. Your post leads me to understand that disagreement is permissible. If nothing else, I truly believe that manners matter.  I just responded to a post that contained an honest opinion with which I happen to disagree quite passionately.  I typed nothing in all caps and tried to provide context for what might otherwise come across as undue emotion in my tone. I may fall short, but hope I never stop caring about falling short. 

What part constituted shouting? I mean no sarcasm or snark in this question. Where was the shouting?


----------



## Luanne

TravelTime said:


> Since you asked: 95% to 97% of people with Covid recover. Covid is not a death sentence. This is just one of many articles stating that Covid is not a death sentence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chief medical officer: COVID-19 is not a death sentence
> 
> 
> A Mid-Michigan health official is clearing up some confusion about the recovery rate of COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wnem.com


It's not a death sentence, except for those who die.  Did you read travelpager's post?  She has lost friends to Covid 19. So saying it's not a death sentence is a slap in the face.


----------



## Pathways

Luanne said:


> Parents I have talked to in Santa Fe are all pretty much of the opinion that the kids should be in school.......but not until it's safe, and that's not yet.



 I would hope that 100% of parents take this view.  Of course ask 1000 parents what 'it's safe' means and you will get 999 answers.

While most of my local districts are either open or opening, those decisions are made only after working with the state and determining that they have reached 'their' definition of 'it's safe'.  

I must mention that statewide, there are 31 districts where they have determined they CANNOT open safely, and will be remote only for the foreseeable future. So based on that I am cautiously optimistic that the powers that be are not simply being pressured into opening by parents who are not taking into account any of the risks, but in fact are prepared


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> Covid is not a death sentence


Please reference where anyone has said it is.  You would not like it if we now talked about you saying no one is dying.


----------



## Chrispee

I speak as an educator/administrator, and spouse to an educator, and both of us have been working with students in a school this summer.  There is absolutely no way to keep North American students safe and distanced in a full school reopening. Students here are used to freedoms and not regimented in a way that facilitates effective distancing or 100% mask usage.


----------



## geekette

needvaca said:


> I mustn’t be explaining myself well
> There only 3 days of REMOTE learning prep
> 
> I’m not worried about in person. The district published Over 100 pages of how that will work and safety standards. That is what they are ready for.  NOT remote learning


No, you did a good job, I worded wrong with 'get out there.'   I understood that teachers are not getting what they need to be effective remote teachers.  It's not fair to not be trained in tools and techniques like they were before entering the profession - this isn't in those old textbooks and lectures.   It's extra stress, and little crap that goes wrong here and there loses some of those remote viewers whose attention spans can't wait for ironed wrinkles.  Teachers are unlikely to have a production crew helping them along like work from home broadcasters.   
I think those wanting remote learning for their students want Effective remote learning.  It's putting teachers behind the 8 ball in delivering that to not fully prepare them.  It's actually  mean.


----------



## geekette

easyrider said:


> Our county is still in stage 1.5 which really is just stage 1 that allowed haircuts and other things.
> 
> Bill


It's going to be weird with people having only half a hair cut ...


----------



## Pathways

View attachment 24580


geekette said:


> It's going to be weird with people having only half a hair cut ...



Get half today, quarantine 14 days, then get the other half


----------



## Cornell

Pathways said:


> View attachment 24580
> 
> 
> Get half today, quarantine 14 days, then get the other half


Like a mullett!


----------



## TravelTime

bluehende said:


> Please reference where anyone has said it is.  You would not like it if we now talked about you saying no one is dying.



I am confused. I said it is not a death sentence. I did not say anyone else said it is. The other person asked me for an article supporting what I said.


----------



## TravelTime

Luanne said:


> It's not a death sentence, except for those who die.  Did you read travelpager's post?  She has lost friends to Covid 19. So saying it's not a death sentence is a slap in the face.



She asked me to respond to her. I did not seek her out to say this to her. I was responding to her question. Give me a break and stop attacking.


----------



## Country Roads

Cornell said:


> Like a mullett!



Are we bringing back the 80s again?


----------



## Cornell

Country Roads said:


> Are we bringing back the 80s again?


I'd welcome that .


----------



## geekette

Country Roads said:


> Are we bringing back the 80s again?


only if we stop at 80s music and mullets. I am not doing big hair or shoulder pads.


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> I am confused. I said it is not a death sentence. I did not say anyone else said it is. The other person asked me for an article supporting what I said.


I am asking you to defend this statement



TravelTime said:


> I think parents and teachers are panicking like Covid means immediate death


  You used the term death sentence in the sentence before.

This is belittling others fears.  1400 people died yesterday.  162000 have died to date in the US.   The sooner people lose the attitude that this is not a real problem, the sooner we can deal with it like we should.  The exact attitude you posted is why we cannot open many schools safely at this point.


----------



## bbodb1

geekette said:


> only if we stop at 80s music and mullets. I am not doing big hair or shoulder pads.



Oh come on, @geekette - there has to be a photo of you with big hair!
And while we are on the subject, include 70's cars.


----------



## Pathways

bbodb1 said:


> Oh come on, @geekette - there has to be a photo of you with big hair!
> And while we are on the subject, include 70's cars.


Oh please don't stray from the subject matter of us 'yelling' at each other, but is that a stock photo? or yours?


----------



## geekette

bbodb1 said:


> Oh come on, @geekette - there has to be a photo of you with big hair!
> And while we are on the subject, include 70's cars.


OK, bring back the cars, I am good with that.  Sweet Cutlas with t tops ...

I was a competitive swimmer.   Some school mates nicknamed me Phyllis (Diller) back in grade school based on my hair.  It has never held a style and I am not someone interested in spending time on my hair.  no pics of big hair.  I expect it would not have been possible.  No floofy peasant blouses with big shoulders,, either.  It has served me well to never be a trend follower.  the lack of photographic embarrassment alone has been worth it....


----------



## Country Roads




----------



## bbodb1

Pathways said:


> Oh please don't stray from the subject matter of us 'yelling' at each other, but is that a stock photo? or yours?


I wish it were @Pathways - cars back then had soul!  Just a stock photo I am sorry to say....


----------



## Country Roads

Pathways said:


> Oh please don't stray from the subject matter of us 'yelling' at each other, but is that a stock photo? or yours?



It was all Laura's fault. She derailed it with the infamous mullett.


----------



## travelpager

TravelTime said:


> Since you asked: 95% to 97% of people with Covid recover. Covid is not a death sentence. This is just one of many articles stating that Covid is not a death sentence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chief medical officer: COVID-19 is not a death sentence
> 
> 
> A Mid-Michigan health official is clearing up some confusion about the recovery rate of COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wnem.com



I did ask, thank you. I find the article credible and do appreciate the opportunity to remember that panic can be as counterproductive as shouting.  Now then ... which of us lives and which of us dies? I do not mean to suggest that the world stops for the unfortunate 2-3% any more than I believe that you mean to write off those lives (or the recovered-but-damaged) as unimportant.  The question is whether and to what extent one proceeds given relative certainty of 2-3% mortality (as well as the societal, economic and financial costs of the increase in morbidity rate) that will follow an increase in people-moving [citations available]?  And, given the ways in which asymptomatic/presymptomatic/mildly affected can shed the virus to others who may then stress finite healthcare resources at significant cost to us all (car wreck victims need beds too), what path forward best serves the shared objectives? Education, even classroom education, is an objective I recognize and accept.  I presume we might agree on "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" for all ... citizens(?). Within that context, does limiting the spread of a virus that costs as much as it has in lives, sick leave, personal finances, human capital, increased economic instability, and public hospital systems (incl staff) rank as another shared objective?  If so, then our differences lie in what we perceive as the better way forward in terms of balance. In all honesty, I prioritize the education and the physical health of a child over child happiness (forgive me - I have teenagers who seem developmentally programmed to be surly no matter what). How to balance child happiness and even parent happiness against the knowledge of certain harm (perhaps slight, perhaps lethal) and related costs is just a toughy. If only we could each do what we wanted without affecting anyone else, these questions would be moot. Only we can't, so what of the healthy teacher married to someone who is otherwise taking every precaution possible? If (note: hypothetical) stats available by Labor Day suggest that classroom teachers are at higher risk of contracting the virus ... does that matter? Is the presence of a qualified teacher vs Random Human secondary? If a qualified teacher is an essential part of the objective of educating happy children, then morbidity/mortality rates among healthcare clinicians [citations available] would suggest that teachers should be outfitted similarly, yes? If not, are we counting some percentage of lives lost/damaged solely through what I will call "teacher infection" as part of the cost of doing business? All other things being equal, how often would you be willing to act as substitute teacher in the class or school so affected ... or is this a fair question?  No doubt you are braver than I.  You, Herman Cain, Acquaintance #6 (42, CA, lawyer, survived virus in May w/lung & neurological damage, curr. in rehab) and probably many others may point to my cowardice and my inability to ignore the coming strain on any number of systems as the sticks in the mud. That's fine. If what you/y'all wanted would not definitely put others at increased risk of unknowable harm, I'd be quiet (but still bothered). That's not the current reality, so then maybe I need to better understand the principle underlying the position that the parent who wants his or her child to learn in a classroom from a qualified teacher who lacks the same equipment that mostly, but not always, protects clinicians from infection will get what that parent actually wants. If districts are increasing staff to offset faculty/staff absenteeism and turnover and/or we are ignoring the costs that will follow, say, 2-3% of faculty/staff/family/student/etc. infection, then I understand ... almost. Otherwise, I just don't see how starting in-person instruction in August 2020 is calculated to avoid (delay?) the disruptions that accompany higher morbidity rates, if not mortality rates. Or is the child learning in a stable setting not as important as, [what, exactly] the classroom, with or without class/teacher absenteeism?


----------



## DannyTS

I think I read that 60% of the parents want kids to return to school, and only 15% of teachers. Somehow parents and teachers seem to live on different planets.


----------



## Pathways

Cornell said:


> I'd welcome that .
> 
> View attachment 24581


Another classic screw up by the DOT. An exit for the 80's would require at least two lanes if not three


----------



## Pathways

DannyTS said:


> I think I read that 60% of the parents want kids to return to school, and only 15% of teachers. Somehow parents and teachers seem to live on different planets.


They do....One group wants to get their kids to school so they can go back to work with no day care and save $. The other group is taxpayer paid and is still getting paid no matter whether they are in school or not.


----------



## DannyTS

travelpager said:


> I did ask, thank you. I find the article credible and do appreciate the opportunity to remember that panic can be as counterproductive as shouting.  Now then ... which of us lives and which of us dies? I do not mean to suggest that the world stops for the unfortunate 2-3% any more than I believe that you mean to write off those lives (or the recovered-but-damaged) as unimportant.  The question is whether and to what extent one proceeds given relative certainty of 2-3% mortality (as well as the societal, economic and financial costs of the increase in morbidity rate) that will follow an increase in people-moving [citations available]?  And, given the ways in which asymptomatic/presymptomatic/mildly affected can shed the virus to others who may then stress finite healthcare resources at significant cost to us all (car wreck victims need beds too), what path forward best serves the shared objectives? Education, even classroom education, is an objective I recognize and accept.  I presume we might agree on "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" for all ... citizens(?). Within that context, does limiting the spread of a virus that costs as much as it has in lives, sick leave, personal finances, human capital, increased economic instability, and public hospital systems (incl staff) rank as another shared objective?  If so, then our differences lie in what we perceive as the better way forward in terms of balance. In all honesty, I prioritize the education and the physical health of a child over child happiness (forgive me - I have teenagers who seem developmentally programmed to be surly no matter what). How to balance child happiness and even parent happiness against the knowledge of certain harm (perhaps slight, perhaps lethal) and related costs is just a toughy. If only we could each do what we wanted without affecting anyone else, these questions would be moot. Only we can't, so what of the healthy teacher married to someone who is otherwise taking every precaution possible? If (note: hypothetical) stats available by Labor Day suggest that classroom teachers are at higher risk of contracting the virus ... does that matter? Is the presence of a qualified teacher vs Random Human secondary? If a qualified teacher is an essential part of the objective of educating happy children, then morbidity/mortality rates among healthcare clinicians [citations available] would suggest that teachers should be outfitted similarly, yes? If not, are we counting some percentage of lives lost/damaged solely through what I will call "teacher infection" as part of the cost of doing business? All other things being equal, how often would you be willing to act as substitute teacher in the class or school so affected ... or is this a fair question?  No doubt you are braver than I.  You, Herman Cain, Acquaintance #6 (42, CA, lawyer, survived virus in May w/lung & neurological damage, curr. in rehab) and probably many others may point to my cowardice and my inability to ignore the coming strain on any number of systems as the sticks in the mud. That's fine. If what you/y'all wanted would not definitely put others at increased risk of unknowable harm, I'd be quiet (but still bothered). That's not the current reality, so then maybe I need to better understand the principle underlying the position that the parent who wants his or her child to learn in a classroom from a qualified teacher who lacks the same equipment that mostly, but not always, protects clinicians from infection will get what that parent actually wants. If districts are increasing staff to offset faculty/staff absenteeism and turnover and/or we are ignoring the costs that will follow, say, 2-3% of faculty/staff/family/student/etc. infection, then I understand ... almost. Otherwise, I just don't see how starting in-person instruction in August 2020 is calculated to avoid (delay?) the disruptions that accompany higher morbidity rates, if not mortality rates.


The mortality rate for people under 65 is virtually the same as it is for the flue. How even  teachers under say 55 do not want to return in classes even if the mortality rate for them is negligible? This is ridiculous, and as WSJ put it, this is extortion plain and simple. 









						Opinion | School-Opening Extortion
					

Teachers unions are using Covid-19 as a political weapon.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## Cornell

Pathways said:


> They do....One group wants to get their kids to school so they can go back to work with no day care and save $. The other group is taxpayer paid and is still getting paid no matter whether they are in school or not.


With all due respect, parents sending their kids back to school is about getting them educated, not day care.


----------



## Brett

DannyTS said:


> The mortality rate for people under 65 is virtually the same as it is for the flue. How even  teachers under say 55 do not want to return in classes even if the mortality rate for them is negligible? This is ridiculous, and as WSJ put it, this is extortion plain and simple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion | School-Opening Extortion
> 
> 
> Teachers unions are using Covid-19 as a political weapon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com



another WSJ *opinion* article   ... it's extortion ... coronavirus is a hoax  !
(flu)


----------



## Pathways

Breaking news here: A family has retained a law firm and filed suit against a district that has not opened yet.  They say their son has a disability, and the school district is violating the Americans with Disabilities Act by not servicing their son in person at the school. The IEP the district worked out for remote learning doesn't fully meet his needs.

Gotta love this Country.  And lawyers


----------



## Pathways

Cornell said:


> With all due respect, parents sending their kids back to school is about getting them educated, not day care.



 hey - I thought we lightened the thread up.  Did I really need to add a 'wink'?


----------



## travelpager

DannyTS said:


> The mortality rate for people under 65 is virtually the same as it is for the flue. How even  teachers under say 55 do not want to return in classes even if the mortality rate for them is negligible? This is ridiculous, and as WSJ put it, this is extortion plain and simple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion | School-Opening Extortion
> 
> 
> Teachers unions are using Covid-19 as a political weapon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com



Okay, let me ask once more: if you are a healthy third-grade teacher in your early forties who happens to either live with a parent or have the misfortune to marry or birth someone without the same health status, please help me apply/understand who, in fact, faces extortion in this situation.


----------



## TravelTime

bluehende said:


> I am asking you to defend this statement
> 
> 
> You used the term death sentence in the sentence before.
> 
> This is belittling others fears.  1400 people died yesterday.  162000 have died to date in the US.   The sooner people lose the attitude that this is not a real problem, the sooner we can deal with it like we should.  The exact attitude you posted is why we cannot open many schools safely at this point.



You can read what she wrote. She asked me to reply.

The fact that Covid is not a death sentence is a positive thing. I do not understand why people get defensive and feel belittled by that statement. If someone I knew died from Covid, it would not change what I think bc what I think is based on facts. If 50% of Americans were getting Covid and 50% of them died, then I would change what I think and I would agree that Covid is a death sentence.

Would you feel better if I started telling everyone with Covid that they are going to die? Would that be more respectful? That is essentially what you are saying. You are saying the Covid is a death sentence.

You can believe whatever you want but do not belittle me for having an opinion. I feel very belittled by you and Luanne.


----------



## TravelTime

travelpager said:


> I did ask, thank you. I find the article credible and do appreciate the opportunity to remember that panic can be as counterproductive as shouting.  Now then ... which of us lives and which of us dies? I do not mean to suggest that the world stops for the unfortunate 2-3% any more than I believe that you mean to write off those lives (or the recovered-but-damaged) as unimportant.  The question is whether and to what extent one proceeds given relative certainty of 2-3% mortality (as well as the societal, economic and financial costs of the increase in morbidity rate) that will follow an increase in people-moving [citations available]?  And, given the ways in which asymptomatic/presymptomatic/mildly affected can shed the virus to others who may then stress finite healthcare resources at significant cost to us all (car wreck victims need beds too), what path forward best serves the shared objectives? Education, even classroom education, is an objective I recognize and accept.  I presume we might agree on "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" for all ... citizens(?). Within that context, does limiting the spread of a virus that costs as much as it has in lives, sick leave, personal finances, human capital, increased economic instability, and public hospital systems (incl staff) rank as another shared objective?  If so, then our differences lie in what we perceive as the better way forward in terms of balance. In all honesty, I prioritize the education and the physical health of a child over child happiness (forgive me - I have teenagers who seem developmentally programmed to be surly no matter what). How to balance child happiness and even parent happiness against the knowledge of certain harm (perhaps slight, perhaps lethal) and related costs is just a toughy. If only we could each do what we wanted without affecting anyone else, these questions would be moot. Only we can't, so what of the healthy teacher married to someone who is otherwise taking every precaution possible? If (note: hypothetical) stats available by Labor Day suggest that classroom teachers are at higher risk of contracting the virus ... does that matter? Is the presence of a qualified teacher vs Random Human secondary? If a qualified teacher is an essential part of the objective of educating happy children, then morbidity/mortality rates among healthcare clinicians [citations available] would suggest that teachers should be outfitted similarly, yes? If not, are we counting some percentage of lives lost/damaged solely through what I will call "teacher infection" as part of the cost of doing business? All other things being equal, how often would you be willing to act as substitute teacher in the class or school so affected ... or is this a fair question?  No doubt you are braver than I.  You, Herman Cain, Acquaintance #6 (42, CA, lawyer, survived virus in May w/lung & neurological damage, curr. in rehab) and probably many others may point to my cowardice and my inability to ignore the coming strain on any number of systems as the sticks in the mud. That's fine. If what you/y'all wanted would not definitely put others at increased risk of unknowable harm, I'd be quiet (but still bothered). That's not the current reality, so then maybe I need to better understand the principle underlying the position that the parent who wants his or her child to learn in a classroom from a qualified teacher who lacks the same equipment that mostly, but not always, protects clinicians from infection will get what that parent actually wants. If districts are increasing staff to offset faculty/staff absenteeism and turnover and/or we are ignoring the costs that will follow, say, 2-3% of faculty/staff/family/student/etc. infection, then I understand ... almost. Otherwise, I just don't see how starting in-person instruction in August 2020 is calculated to avoid (delay?) the disruptions that accompany higher morbidity rates, if not mortality rates. Or is the child learning in a stable setting not as important as, [what, exactly] the classroom, with or without class/teacher absenteeism?



Thank you for your calm and reasoned reply.


----------



## slip

travelpager said:


> Okay, let me ask once more: if you are a healthy third-grade teacher in your early forties who happens to either live with a parent or have the misfortune to marry or birth someone without the same health status, please help me apply/understand who, in fact, faces extortion in this situation.



Many Essential workers have been in that situation for months and they have found a way to do it. Why is it different for teachers?


----------



## DannyTS

travelpager said:


> Okay, let me ask once more: if you are a healthy third-grade teacher in your early forties who happens to either live with a parent or have the misfortune to marry or birth someone without the same health status, please help me apply/understand who, in fact, faces extortion in this situation.


let me ask you another question: how many teachers have friends that have been going to work in the last 4 months? How come their friends could but the teachers could not? But saying all teachers should stay at home because there might be some  who live with a person at risk is an insult to all those that have been working to keep  the society going.


----------



## TravelTime

bluehende said:


> Please reference where anyone has said it is.  You would not like it if we now talked about you saying no one is dying.



BTW, Covid is not a death sentence does not mean no one is dying. It means the majority of people with Covid are not dying. I think you much know this but the way you phrased your reply sounds like you do not.


----------



## DannyTS

Pathways said:


> They do....One group wants to get their kids to school so they can go back to work with no day care and save $. The other group is taxpayer paid and is still getting paid no matter whether they are in school or not.


If the teachers stopped being paid the poll would revers  in a split second.


----------



## travelpager

TravelTime said:


> You can read what she wrote. She asked me to reply.
> 
> The fact that Covid is not a death sentence is a positive thing. I do not understand why people get defensive and feel belittled by that statement. If someone I knew died from Covid, it would not change what I think bc what I think is based on facts. If 50% of Americans were getting Covid and 50% of them died, then I would change what I think and I would agree that Covid is a death sentence.
> 
> Would you feel better if I started telling everyone with Covid that they are going to die? Would that be more respectful? That is essentially what you are saying. You are saying the Covid is a death sentence.
> 
> You can believe whatever you want but do not belittle me for having an opinion. I feel very belittled by you and Luanne.



I did not feel belittled. I do get very defensive at the thought of Acquantance #2, a healthcare professional who died "in the line of duty" (NY) being relegated to that 2-3% "over there" who just don't number enough to justify this or that intervention.  For me, death by Covid 19 has a face - more than one. It's not just a number updated a few times each day.  Covid 19 kills and Covid 19 costs. Let me lose 5 acquaintances in 5 months to flu and I'ma rattle every chain as loudly as I can about flu shots every freakin day.  And anyone who tries to convince me that influenza is sure to respect the rights of an American to happiness and choice, etc. will get a lengthy dissertation on Typhoid Mary (different disease, similar principle) and a free ride to the nearest clinic, bondage optional.


----------



## Ken555

Brett said:


> another WSJ *opinion* article   ... it's extortion ... coronavirus is a hoax  !
> (flu)



Did someone actually post a comparison of C19 and the flu with the notion that they are similar? Again?!?! Give me a break. It's probably a good time to remind everyone that the CDC flu death numbers are estimates, and even those estimates are significantly less than the 162,000 deaths we have had so far this year from C19. Some people keep pushing their fringe beliefs...just sad.





__





						Estimated Flu-Related Illnesses, Medical visits, Hospitalizations, and Deaths in the United States — 2018–2019 Flu  Season | CDC
					

CDC calculates estimates of disease burden in the United States using surveillance data and modeling to adjust for sources of under-detection. Burden estimates for the 2018-2019 season found here.




					www.cdc.gov
				





> CDC estimates that influenza was associated with more than 35.5 million illnesses, more than 16.5 million medical visits, 490,600 hospitalizations, and 34,200 deaths during the 2018–2019 influenza season.


----------



## Pathways

travelpager said:


> Okay, let me ask once more: if you are a healthy third-grade teacher in your early forties who happens to either live with a parent or have the misfortune to marry or birth someone without the same health status, please help me apply/understand who, in fact, faces extortion in this situation.



Not sure the point of this question.  Anyone, not just the teacher you have described, but anyone who due to their living arrangements or personal health feels they are risk, should follow their heart (and hopefully their head too) and decide whether they want to teach, work at any other job, go to the store, or even leave their house.  

No school that I know of is requiring them to return.  If they are, then shame on them!


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> Did someone actually post a comparison of C19 and the flu with the notion that they are similar? Again?!?! Give me a break. It's probably a good time to remind everyone that the CDC flu death numbers are estimates, and even those estimates are significantly less than the 162,000 deaths we have had so far this year from C19. Some people keep pushing their fringe beliefs...just sad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Estimated Flu-Related Illnesses, Medical visits, Hospitalizations, and Deaths in the United States — 2018–2019 Flu  Season | CDC
> 
> 
> CDC calculates estimates of disease burden in the United States using surveillance data and modeling to adjust for sources of under-detection. Burden estimates for the 2018-2019 season found here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov



No one said that.


----------



## TravelTime

Most parents want a mix of online and in-person school.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/post-poll-schools-parents-covid-trump/2020/08/05/f04ae490-d722-11ea-9c3b-dfc394c03988_story.html


----------



## Ken555

Pathways said:


> Anyone, not just the teacher you have described, but anyone who due to their living arrangements or personal health feels they are risk, should follow their heart (and hopefully their head too) and decide whether they want to teach, work at any other job, go to the store, or even leave their house.



Wouldn't it be nice if our society worked together so that even the most disadvantaged amongst us were able to successfully combat this pandemic? Read about Norway's response to the pandemic, the concept of "dugnad", and how it can be applied. It requires a collective will to solve a problem, and that's what we do not have in America.



> What the United States and the rest of the world stand to learn from Norway when it comes to handling this global pandemic is this: when a community comes together under the pretense of creating a better reality for themselves and their neighbors, great things happen. And in this case, great things = saved lives.











						One Word Spared Norway From COVID-19 Disaster
					

And what other countries can learn from its example




					blog.usejournal.com


----------



## travelpager

Pathways said:


> Not sure the point of this question.  Anyone, not just the teacher you have described, but anyone who due to their living arrangements or personal health feels they are risk, should follow their heart (and hopefully their head too) and decide whether they want to teach, work at any other job, go to the store, or even leave their house.
> 
> No school that I know of is requiring them to return.  If they are, then shame on them!



Then perhaps we differ in what each of us would call extortion.
If you have built a career on a skillset
and
if that skillset is presumed to have value enough to demand your physical presence at a time when (a) the state declaration of a public health emergency, etc. remains in effect and (b) city/county officials (home rule? local control?) contends that limited healthcare capacity and public health data warrant more (not fewer) precautions and recommend avoiding groups in indoor spaces
and
if you happen to live with an aged parent or marry someone or birth a child with relevant health issues (before March, I guess, otherwise shame on you for poor planning)
and
you are directed to put yourself and/or your family at risk because kids gotta learn ... in a classroom, indoors, by golly,
OR ELSE
you should quit and/or join the 20+ million newly unemployed
AND IF
health/medical insurance in the US typically runs with employment,
and
given that all this has unfolded over *5 months* or, depending on where you live, 5 weeks of discussion with final decisions coming down now, in August,
then
I suggest to you that "extortion" might accurately describe your set of choices.  If not extortion based on extracting your time and perhaps health to perform despite available alternatives, then Sophie's choice (Hobson's / Hobbes's choice?  [I have to go look up exactly what I mean here.] "Your job/time or your/family member's life ... choose. Now." Sure, you get paid ... big, fat, juicy dollars that will come in mighty handy when/if medical bills arrive.  You telling me this choice is no big deal?  Or what, just bad luck or bad breaks that you didn't know that parent choice would override public health recommendations and/or school district resources?


----------



## Ken555

In regards to rural vs urban schools, I suggest everyone read this.



> This is my choice, but I’m starting to wish that it wasn’t. I don’t feel qualified. I’ve been a superintendent for 20 years, so I guess I should be used to making decisions, but I keep getting lost in my head. I’ll be in my office looking at a blank computer screen, and then all of the sudden I realize a whole hour’s gone by. I’m worried. I’m worried about everything. Each possibility I come up with is a bad one.
> 
> The governor has told us we have to open our schools to students on August 17th, or else we miss out on five percent of our funding. I run a high-needs district in middle-of-nowhere Arizona. We’re 90 percent Hispanic and more than 90 percent free-and-reduced lunch. These kids need every dollar we can get. But covid is spreading all over this area and hitting my staff, and now it feels like there’s a gun to my head. I already lost one teacher to this virus. Do I risk opening back up even if it’s going to cost us more lives? Or do we run school remotely and end up depriving these kids?
> 
> This is your classic one-horse town. Picture John Wayne riding through cactuses and all that. I’m superintendent, high school principal and sometimes the basketball referee during recess. This is a skeleton staff, and we pay an average salary of about 40,000 a year. I’ve got nothing to cut.





			https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/01/schools-reopening-coronavirus-arizona-superintendent/?arc404=true


----------



## Luanne

Ken555 said:


> In regards to rural vs urban schools, I suggest everyone read this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/01/schools-reopening-coronavirus-arizona-superintendent/?arc404=true


I can't read it without a subscription.  But from the headline I can get the gist of the article.


----------



## DannyTS

travelpager said:


> Then perhaps we differ in what each of us would call extortion.
> If you have built a career on a skillset
> and
> if that skillset is presumed to have value enough to demand your physical presence at a time when (a) the state declaration of a public health emergency, etc. remains in effect and (b) city/county officials (home rule? local control?) contends that limited healthcare capacity and public health data warrant more (not fewer) precautions and recommend avoiding groups in indoor spaces
> and
> if you happen to live with an aged parent or marry someone or birth a child with relevant health issues (before March, I guess, otherwise shame on you for poor planning)
> and
> you are directed to put yourself and/or your family at risk because kids gotta learn ... in a classroom, indoors, by golly,
> OR ELSE
> you should quit and/or join the 20+ million newly unemployed
> AND IF
> health/medical insurance in the US typically runs with employment,
> and
> given that all this has unfolded over *5 months* or, depending on where you live, 5 weeks of discussion with final decisions coming down now, in August,
> then
> I suggest to you that "extortion" might accurately describe your set of choices.  If not extortion based on extracting your time and perhaps health to perform despite available alternatives, then Sophie's choice (Hobson's / Hobbes's choice?  [I have to go look up exactly what I mean here.] "Your job/time or your/family member's life ... choose. Now." Sure, you get paid ... big, fat, juicy dollars that will come in mighty handy when/if medical bills arrive.  You telling me this choice is no big deal?  Or what, just bad luck or bad breaks that you didn't know that parent choice would override public health recommendations and/or school district resources?


Do you have any friends who are doctors? Does their thought process resembles to what you have just described? NO. The carried on their duties even when Covid was thought to be A LOT worse. Why are teachers so different than other professionals (except that they get paid regardless)? Give me a break. You meet them at restaurants and shopping malls, but when it comes to teaching, they are "afraid" to go to school. I would like to see the Google mobility graph just for teachers, I bet they did not stay barricaded inside.


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> In regards to rural vs urban schools, I suggest everyone read this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/01/schools-reopening-coronavirus-arizona-superintendent/?arc404=true



The safe thing and the politically correct thing to do right now is to keep schools closed. I think a hybrid model might be best but most schools seem to be going toward either opening or staying closed. I know many people who are doing learning pods. This seems to be the best middle road for those who can afford it.

BTW, I have a choice whether to open my office or not and I am keeping it closed. All those people attacking me for my opinion should look at my behavior. I feel like a little girl on these TUG boards where I am obeying my parents but still getting in trouble for what they say is "smart mouthing" them. I can express my opinion but still follow the guidelines of the CDC and other health professionals. Your time would be better spent shaming the people who are not following the guidelines and not wearing masks or social distancing. I have no guilt because I have been on my best behavior. I know with 100% certainty that I have not spread the virus and I suspect with 99% certainty that I will not do so in the future. (PS the little girl and parent stuff is an apology, please do not take it literally.)


----------



## travelpager

slip said:


> Many Essential workers have been in that situation for months and they have found a way to do it. Why is it different for teachers?



Point taken.  What's more, I don't know enough to compare salary/security/benefits between grocery store workers, bus drivers, nurses, nurse techs, etc. I guess my compassion is showing bc I'm in the camp that thinks hazard pay, etc. is in order.  Here's the thing, though: you can't drive a bus online or intubate a patient from your home.  Remote learning is an Actual Thing. Maybe not the Best Thing, perhaps, but undeniably not something I made up.  Online learning, if only for a set period, is a viable option that would not warrant a large-scale increase in people traffic leading to hours spent grouped indoors ... and we know why that matters, right?


----------



## TravelTime

DannyTS said:


> Do you have any friends who are doctors? Does their thought process resembles to what you have just described? NO. The carried on their duties even when Covid was thought to be A LOT worse. Why are teachers so different than other professionals (except that they get paid regardless)?



I agree with the gist of what you are saying but I would not compare teachers to doctors or anyone in the medical field. Many teachers would argue that they did not sign up to deal with pandemics and die (they tend to assume they will die if they go back into the classroom). One could argue that doctors and nurses have signed up for this. Therefore, I would compare teachers to other non-medical essential workers.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> The safe thing and the politically correct thing to do right now is to keep schools closed. I think a hybrid model might be best but most schools seem to be going toward either opening or staying closed. I know many people who are doing learning pods. This seems to be the best middle road for those who can afford it.



I’ve seen a lot of info about pods from friends and other sites. Why aren’t school districts endorsing this concept and organizing it, supporting it, and managing it? Likely because of worry they won’t receive their funding. 



> BTW, I have a choice whether to open my office or not and I am keeping it closed. All those people attacking me for my opinion should look at my behavior. I feel like a little girl on these TUG boards where I am obeying my parents but still getting in trouble for what they say is "smart mouthing" them. I can express my opinion but still follow the guidelines of the CDC and other health professionals. Your time would be better spend shaming the people who are not following the guidelines and not wearing masks or social distancing. I have no guilt because I have been on my best behavior. I know with 100% certainty that I have not spread the virus and I suspect with 99% certainty that I will not do so in the future.



You’ve said this previously, which is why it baffles me that you then post comments about how C19 isn’t so bad, very few die, etc etc. It’s as if you are saying do what I do, not what I say. Are you sure there’s not a second person occasionally posting from your account? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS

TravelTime said:


> I agree with the gist of what you are saying but I would not compare teachers to doctors or anyone in the medical field. *Many teachers would argue that they did not sign up to deal with pandemics *and die (they tend to assume they will die if they go back into the classroom). One could argue that doctors and nurses have signed up for this. Therefore, I would compare teachers to other non-medical essential workers.


I do not agree with that assumption, many doctors do not work in the hospital but in clinics and offices, their day to day life prior to Covid was not very different in terms of risk than a teacher or any other profession. But if you do not like the comparison, fine, just let's look at other essential workers.  I do not think that the Walmart cashiers signed up for anything before Covid but they continued to go to work even if  they get paid substantially less than the teachers.


----------



## travelpager

TravelTime said:


> Thank you for your calm and reasoned reply.





DannyTS said:


> Do you have any friends who are doctors? Does their thought process resembles to what you have just described? NO. The carried on their duties even when Covid was thought to be A LOT worse. Why are teachers so different than other professionals (except that they get paid regardless)? Give me a break. You meet them at restaurants and shopping malls, but when it comes to teaching, they are "afraid" to go to school. I would like to see the Google mobility graph just for teachers, I bet they did not stay barricaded inside.



Raised by one and married one (20+ years). Believe that neither would ever, ever argue that he faces the same set of choices as a public school teacher, not last year and certainly not now.


----------



## DannyTS

travelpager said:


> Raised by one and married one (20+ years). Believe that *neither would ever, ever argue that he faces the same set of choices as a public school teacher, not last year and certainly not now.*


Can you elaborate?


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> I’ve seen a lot of info about pods from friends and other sites. Why aren’t school districts endorsing this concept and organizing it, supporting it, and managing it? Likely because of worry they won’t receive their funding.
> 
> 
> 
> You’ve said this previously, which is why it baffles me that you then post comments about how C19 isn’t so bad, very few die, etc etc. It’s as if you are saying do what I do, not what I say. Are you sure there’s not a second person occasionally posting from your account?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



This was funny. It got a laugh out of me. I have not said that C-19 isn’t so bad or that very few die. I have said the vast majority of people do not get sick and die. I have said it is not a death sentence. That is not the same as what you are stating I said. I think there is a high level of anxiety about Covid that seems out of proportion to the real risk. There are so many preventable diseases that definitely kill, that are a death sentence, yet people do not protect their health against the definite killers. Now Covid is like a survival of the fittest...it is selecting the people who have not taken care of themselves, who are older and/or who have had the bad luck of having an underlying condition through no fault of their own. When the AIDS epidemic started, I was scared of that because, at the time, it was a definite killer. I am petrified of getting diabetes because that wrecks havoc on the body. I am not so worried about Covid based on what I read.


----------



## TravelTime

DannyTS said:


> I do not agree with that assumption, many doctors do not work in the hospital but in clinics and offices, their day to day life prior to Covid was not very different in terms of risk than a teacher or any other profession. But if you do not like the comparison, fine, just let's look at other essential workers.  I do not think that the Walmart cashiers signed up for anything before Covid but they continued to go to work even if  they get paid substantially less than the teachers.



I am agreeing with you. I think you missed the agreement.


----------



## DannyTS

TravelTime said:


> I am agreeing with you. I think you missed the agreement.


I know you agree with me but some people use the "this is what the doctors signed up for" as an argument for everything. Many wanted to be doctors to make people better and for saving lives not for getting sick themselves. I would argue that doctors getting sick would be   a very poor way of saving lives in the long run.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> This was funny. It got a laugh out of me. I have not said that C-19 isn’t so bad or that very few die. I have said the vast majority of people do not get sick and die. I have said it is not a death sentence. That is not the same as what you are stating I said. I think there is a high level of anxiety about Covid that seems out of proportion to the real risk. There are so many preventable diseases that definitely kill, that are a death sentence, yet people do not protect their health against the definite killers. Now Covid is like a survival of the fittest...it is selecting the people who have not taken care of themselves, who are older and/or who have had the bad luck of having an underlying condition through no fault of their own. When the AIDS epidemic started, I was scared of that because, at the time, it was a definite killer. I am petrified of getting diabetes because that wrecks havoc on the body. I am not so worried about Covid based on what I read.



Yeah, I meant “very few” %, which is what you said.

Now you’re back to rationalizing C19 in comparison with other diseases, in the hope that we will agree that it’s not so bad after all. 

If you think diabetes is worse than C19, I’ve got a great piece of land to sell you... 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jackio

My district's opening plan called for a hybrid program - students in 2x/week - M,T or Th,F with 3 days virtual learning. Wednesday staff reports and there will be deep cleaning of the classrooms.  Wed. is for the teachers to prepare their virtual lessons for the 3 days.  Special ed students in 8:1:1, 12:1:1 and 15:1:1 classes would attend 5 days a week.
 After the plan was submitted to the governor the parent survey went out.  Approx. 50% of the parents were planning on sending their children, 30 % were not and 20% were unsure.  The only other option was to apply for home schooling - on your own, no 3 days of virtual by the district.  Parents were pressuring the district to give them a 5-day virtual option, and it worked because today they announced that a full virtual option will be available.
Now parents are asking if their students can have a 5-day option for the days that will not be taken by the hybrid program students.  That is not an option at this point.


----------



## travelpager

DannyTS said:


> Can you elaborate?



Different expectations as far as purpose and time commitment, coupled with a compensation structure that, over time, may yield greater personal freedom as far as consequences or impact of, say, choosing early retirement.


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> Yeah, I meant “very few” %, which is what you said.
> 
> Now you’re back to rationalizing C19 in comparison with other diseases, in the hope that we will agree that it’s not so bad after all.
> 
> If you think diabetes is worse than C19, I’ve got a great piece of land to sell you...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



You missed my point again. I said I am scared of diabetes. I am not comparing it to Covid. I am just saying that AIDS and diabetes are my fears. There is a group of Tuggers who continually misinterpret what I say.

BTW, have you seen someone die from the complications of diabetes? It is a slow miserable death. Really scary. Even if you do not get that sick and die, who wants to inject themselves with insulin for the rest of their lives and constantly be measuring their blood sugar level. That is no way to live and I will not live that way because I know how bad it is and I have taken health precautions since I was a lot younger to make sure I do not get diabetes. It runs in my family but I will not get it. I would rather get Covid and be sick for a few weeks, than get diabetes and be sick for 20+ years and possibly die like a vegetable over many years.

We all have our diseases of choice.


----------



## Pathways

travelpager said:


> Different expectations as far as purpose and time commitment, coupled with a compensation structure that, over time, may yield greater personal freedom as far as consequences or impact of, say, choosing early retirement.



Guess I don't follow this either.  I am friends with numerous doctors and teachers.  All of the teachers retired early, all the doctors except one are still working.  (most are now in their 70's)  Is that what you meant?


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> You missed my point again. I said I am scared of diabetes. I am not comparing it to Covid. I am just saying that AIDS and diabetes are my fears. There is a group of Tuggers who continually misinterpret what I say.



Actually, I understood you perfectly. You choose to interpret my response incorrectly.

AIDS and diabetes = bad
Covid-19 = no big deal

Gotcha.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555

I find the entire premise that teachers and doctors are equal in regards to Covid-19 reopening to be rather disquieting.

I agree with this page:









						Stop Comparing Schools to Hospitals
					

More than one Facebook thread has started with “Doctors and nurses have been working this whole time, so what makes teachers different?”




					medium.com
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> Actually, I understood you perfectly. You choose to interpret my response incorrectly.
> 
> AIDS and diabetes = bad
> Covid-19 = no big deal
> 
> Gotcha.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



You missed it again. That is okay.

I would rather die of cancer than a heart attack. All I am saying is we all have our fears. Covid is just not my fear. It is very bad for many of those who get It and I am not saying it is not bad for the unlucky ones.


----------



## easyrider

geekette said:


> It's going to be weird with people having only half a hair cut ...



I managed to get a haircut but my sisters husband has a blood problem so she only cut a few family members hair to make sure she doesn't catch something and pass it along. Only one haircut this year for me. Its really long again and I kind of like it long  and I have no sales calls so I guess it doesn't matter.

Bill


----------



## slip

travelpager said:


> Point taken.  What's more, I don't know enough to compare salary/security/benefits between grocery store workers, bus drivers, nurses, nurse techs, etc. I guess my compassion is showing bc I'm in the camp that thinks hazard pay, etc. is in order.  Here's the thing, though: you can't drive a bus online or intubate a patient from your home.  Remote learning is an Actual Thing. Maybe not the Best Thing, perhaps, but undeniably not something I made up.  Online learning, if only for a set period, is a viable option that would not warrant a large-scale increase in people traffic leading to hours spent grouped indoors ... and we know why that matters, right?



My only point is that others have been out in similar situations everyday since this started.


----------



## Passepartout

4" of snow= Close the schools!
Worldwide deadly pandemic with hundreds of thousands dead= Don't miss the bus.

Now, seriously, I don't have a dog in the fight. No kids/grands in any school. But evidence shows that when schools open, it's only days and the students and teachers are quarantined. How long before the authorities notice?

Jim


----------



## easyrider

Cornell said:


> Like a mullett!



Business in the front, party in the back, lol.

Bill


----------



## DannyTS

travelpager said:


> Different expectations as far as purpose and time commitment, coupled with a compensation structure that, over time, may yield greater personal freedom as far as consequences or impact of, say, choosing early retirement.


Oh, I did not realize you made this about money. But if you do, you should acknowledge that teachers make a lot more that many essential workers, have generous pensions and benefits and a lot more vacation than virtually anybody else. Teachers have very high life expectancy, you will not convince me they have a difficult life. I have not heard of teachers enrolling to help Walmart cashiers this pandemic but I may have missed the news. I just feel that "we are all in this together" has not applied  to teachers at all.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> You missed it again. That is okay.
> 
> I would rather die of cancer than a heart attack. All I am saying is we all have our fears. Covid is just not my fear. It is very bad for many of those who get It and I am not saying it is not bad for the unlucky ones.



Hey, you can keep saying that all you want. I read what you wrote, and I understood it. But sure, I’m wrong. Whatever. Keep on posting that C19 isn’t that bad, as you have done today, and there are those of us who will keep shaking our heads and wondering what you’re smoking.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555

Passepartout said:


> 4" of snow= Close the schools!
> Worldwide deadly pandemic with hundreds or thousands dead= Don't miss the bus.
> 
> Now, seriously, I don't have a dog in the fight. No kids/grands in any school. But evidence shows that when schools open, it's only days and the students and teachers are quarantined. How long before the authorities notice?
> 
> Jim



Upside down priorities is fairly standard for America these days, isn’t it?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> Hey, you can keep saying that all you want. I read what you wrote, and I understood it. But sure, I’m wrong. Whatever. Keep on posting that C19 isn’t that bad, as you have done today, and there are those of us who will keep shaking our heads and wondering what you’re smoking.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Please re-quote where I said “Covid is not that bad.” Maybe I said that and do not remember. I do not smoke BTW. I purposely stay very healthy so when something like Covid comes along, I am at lower risk.

BTW, I have watched you and another male TUGGER who has attacked me on this thread fight with others and you guys get out of control with what you say. Often, you guys completely miss the point and misinterpret what people are saying. So it is not just with me.


----------



## needvaca

TravelTime said:


> Most parents want a mix of online and in-person school.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/post-poll-schools-parents-covid-trump/2020/08/05/f04ae490-d722-11ea-9c3b-dfc394c03988_story.html



Actually my district and the majority of IL suburban districts are doing hybrid for middle school and high school.  5 days for elementary only . Basically Monday Tuesday in school for group A, then Wednesday as a cleaning day and special needs only, then Thursday Friday for group B.  They say they guaranty 5 hours of school on the remote days, but don’t say if that will be live-streaming (which parents want) or just more YouTube’s and worksheets.


----------



## DannyTS

Passepartout said:


> 4" of snow= Close the schools!
> Worldwide deadly pandemic with hundreds or thousands dead= Don't miss the bus.
> 
> Now, seriously, I don't have a dog in the fight. No kids/grands in any school. But evidence shows that when schools open, it's only days and the students and teachers are quarantined. How long before the authorities notice?
> 
> Jim


evidence shows... except when the evidence does not show. Look at Sweden, they kept the schools open and there were virtually no problems because of that.


----------



## TravelTime

TravelTime said:


> For a small percentage of people who get Covid, it is very dangerous. However, most people do not have symptoms and, for others, the symptoms are mild. Covid is not a death sentence. Most people who get it do recover just fine. I think parents and teachers are panicking like Covid means immediate death. I have heard teachers saying “I am not willing to die in the classroom.“ This is completely exaggerated. I feel bad for the students in last year’s classrooms and this year‘s who are not getting adequate schooling and will graduate with inferior skills compared to their peers a few years younger or older.



This is what I said that started the attacks. I never said it is not bad. I actually said the opposite. I said for those who get it, it is very dangerous. So @Ken555  please stop saying you are accurately portraying my words. You are not.


----------



## TravelTime

If I had kids, I would set them up with a learning pod and a private tutor. This is going to further the divide with those who can’t afford this luxury.


----------



## TravelTime

So if the CDC supports re-opening schools, why is is not science-based to support it?

I just got this email from an assembly person.


Display errors? Click here to view in browser.





_I have received hundreds of questions from concerned families across the Assembly District regarding the reopening of schools this Fall. 

I fully support returning to in-person instruction as soon as possible in accordance with the guidance released by the state for the safe reopening of schools which can be found at the following link: __https://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/he/hn/coronavirus.asp_

*Data clearly supports the reopening of schools this fall, and even the CDC is urging reopening with in-person instruction: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/schools-childcare/reopening-schools.html*
_ 
It is imperative that parents speak out regarding this subject and let local and state decision-makers know that in-person instruction is necessary for your family and community. I urge you to contact your local school board to make your voice heard along with your County Public Health Officer. Now is the time for us to engage our representatives with data-driven facts about why returning to school is vital to our communities._

*An important piece of legislation to school reopening is AB 1384 (O’Donnell):*

This Bill will excempt schools from any liability having to do with COVID-19 transmission.
This is a primary aspect as to why many schools are deciding to remain closed for Fall.
This bill is still pending a hearing in the Senate Judiciary Committee. It will die in the Senate if the Chair of Senate Judiciary Committee (Senator Hannah-Beth Jackson) refuses to set the bill for hearing.
If you support this bill and schools reopening, please call the Senate Judiciary Committee and office of Hannah-Beth Jackson to urge that they set the bill for hearing.
Senator Jackson’s Capitol office can be contacted at (916) 651-4019.

_I recently released an op-ed explaining further why educational choice is essential in the era of COVID-19 you can read at this link: __https://www.lassennews.com/educational-choice-is-essential-in-the-era-of-covid-19/_

Please reach out to our office if you need any assistance. We are all in this together.



Assemblywoman Megan Dahle


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> Please re-quote where I said “Covid is not that bad.” Maybe I said that and do not remember. I do not smoke BTW. I purposely stay very healthy so when something like Covid comes along, I am at lower risk.
> 
> BTW, I have watched you and another male TUGGER who has attacked me on this thread fight with others and you guys get out of control with what you say. Often, you guys completely miss the point and misinterpret what people are saying. So it is not just with me.



Actually, I’m just responding to your posts. 

I am not attacking you. Again, as I posted earlier, I don’t attack. I comment.

You’re now saying I, and one other, misrepresent what you write. Worse, you’re saying that it’s consistent. I don’t see it that way.

I also don’t see anyone out of control.

And, you’re being sexist with your attack on me now - but I’ll let that slide, no worries, you’re forgiven.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> This is what I said that started the attacks. I never said it is not bad. I actually said the opposite. I said for those who get it, it is very dangerous. So @Ken555  please stop saying you are accurately portraying my words. You are not.


And since you brought me up please again defend this part

I think parents and teachers are panicking like Covid means immediate death. 

Call it an attack, belittling, whatever.....but please give your reasons for this exact comment and how that does not denegrate teachers and parents that disagree with you.  That is what I have asked all along.  If you type it defend it instead of getting defensive.


----------



## DannyTS

bluehende said:


> And since you brought me up please again defend this part
> 
> I think parents and teachers are panicking like Covid means immediate death.
> 
> Call it an attack, belittling, whatever.....but please give your reasons for this exact comment and how that does not denegrate teachers and parents that disagree with you.  That is what I have asked all along.  If you type it defend it instead of getting defensive.


There is a problem with your argument: a lot more teachers than parents do not want the school to start


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> Actually, I’m just responding to your posts.
> 
> I am not attacking you. Again, as I posted earlier, I don’t attack. I comment.
> 
> You’re now saying I, and one other, misrepresent what you write. Worse, you’re saying that it’s consistent. I don’t see it that way.
> 
> I also don’t see anyone out of control.
> 
> And, you’re being sexist with your attack on me now - but I’ll let that slide, no worries, you’re forgiven.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I only mentioned that other Tugger was male bc I do not want Luanne to think I am talking about her. Luanne never agrees with me but I think she is a fair person.


----------



## travelpager

Pathways said:


> Guess I don't follow this either.  I am friends with numerous doctors and teachers.  All of the teachers retired early, all the doctors except one are still working.  (most are now in their 70's)  Is that what you meant?



Without having actually taught in a classroom, the physicians to whom I refer would point to anything from 12 years of training to nights spent on call (year round) to compensation/benefit structures as evidence of two very necessary and challenging but very different skill sets (teaching 75+ teens geometry within defined time periods from Aug - June vs. emergency surgery? I'm I don't know which is harder). Each would be surprised to think that, faced with a sudden work/life choice deemed unacceptable, a teacher and a physician would have a fully comparable set of options. It's not about which job is more important or even whether the professions should be compensated equally, but instead whether one could say, "I love what I do, but this is bananas and/or _*not supported by health or science*_ [yeh? get that?] _*which, btw, is fundamental to my profession*_*,*" walk away and experience equal options and/or impact on finances.  Generalizations are dangerous -- circumstances can lead *anyone* to check-to-check subsistence or constant worry about overhead costs or a savings cushion. I am answering questions about the physicians I know and not even about the choices each made because each made choices based on differences in age, years of tenure/point in career, flexibility to limit exposure by assuming greater administrative responsibility esp during pandemic-related ban on non-essential procedures to free up hospital beds, etc. That's my best and final answer.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> I only mentioned that other Tugger was male bc I do not want Luanne to think I am talking about her. Luanne never agrees with me but I think she is a fair person.



Please note you have now made multiple personal posts in this thread, which are completely off topic.

I’ve tried to stay on topic, but it’s been quite difficult as I felt compelled to respond to some of your personal comments at times. However, my responses have all been in context of the issue. Yours have been attacking me for my multiple posts critical of your position. 

I understand what you wrote. I commented on it. You believe I misunderstood. I disagree. And instead of expanding on your comments in the hopes of correcting me, you simply repeat that I was wrong and oh yeah, so was someone else, and not only that but that we do it constantly...but not Luanne. And she’s fair, but the men are not. Oh, and that’s not sexist. Gotcha. Let’s move on.

In hopes of bringing us back on topic (though I think this thread is now doomed to be locked)...

You think concern about Covid-19 is overblown. Yes, it’s a health risk, but so are many other diseases. You think schools should open safely, but if you had to make this decision about your family you would put your kids in a pod. Is that correct? If not, please clarify. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

bluehende said:


> And since you brought me up please again defend this part
> 
> I think parents and teachers are panicking like Covid means immediate death.
> 
> Call it an attack, belittling, whatever.....but please give your reasons for this exact comment and how that does not denegrate teachers and parents that disagree with you.  That is what I have asked all along.  If you type it defend it instead of getting defensive.



I do not have any one source for this comment. It is an observation from reading many comments by teachers in op-eds and quotes in articles. It would be nearly impossible for me to back track all the articles I read daily in NYT, WSJ and WaPo.

However, I was able to track down a few articles just by typing a few keywords but, other than The Atlantic, these are not my usual sources of information. I just can‘t find any articles right now from my preferred sources.









						I teach public school. I love my students. I don't want to die | CNN
					

I am a public school teacher and I don't want to die. As the question of whether and how to reopen schools in the fall intensifies, with parents and especially politicians expressing their opinions, I want to ask: Has anyone asked what we want to do in the fall?




					www.cnn.com
				












						School reopening in Arizona will be a success until how many teachers (or others) die?
					

If in-person schooling begins Aug. 17, as Gov. Doug Ducey has aspired to, how many COVID-19 casualties are acceptable?



					www.azcentral.com
				












						In Defense of Our Teachers
					

When it comes to the daunting question of reopening schools, America’s educators deserve a plan, not a trap.




					www.theatlantic.com
				




This last article says: Teachers want to teach, not die, and we should support and protect them like the national treasures that they are. For without them, where would we be?

I think parents are panicking less and at least half or more of parents want their Kids back in school full time or they want a mix of virtual and in person school.


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> Please note you have now made multiple personal posts in this thread, which are completely off topic.
> 
> I’ve tried to stay on topic, but it’s been quite difficult as I felt compelled to respond to some of your personal comments at times. However, my responses have all been in context of the issue. Yours have been attacking me for my multiple posts critical of your position.
> 
> I understand what you wrote. I commented on it. You believe I misunderstood. I disagree. And instead of expanding on your comments in the hopes of correcting me, you simply repeat that I was wrong and oh yeah, so was someone else, and not only that but that we do it constantly...but not Luanne. And she’s fair, but the men are not. Oh, and that’s not sexist. Gotcha. Let’s move on.
> 
> In hopes of bringing us back on topic (though I think this thread is now doomed to be locked)...
> 
> You think concern about Covid-19 is overblown. Yes, it’s a health risk, but so are many other diseases. You think schools should open safely, but if you had to make this decision about your family you would put your kids in a pod. Is that correct? If not, please clarify.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I give up. No more replies. It is no win with you. You always are right and have the last word.


----------



## travelpager

TravelTime said:


> So if the CDC supports re-opening schools, why is is not science-based to support it?
> 
> I just got this email from an assembly person.
> 
> 
> Display errors? Click here to view in browser.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _I have received hundreds of questions from concerned families across the Assembly District regarding the reopening of schools this Fall.
> 
> I fully support returning to in-person instruction as soon as possible in accordance with the guidance released by the state for the safe reopening of schools which can be found at the following link: __https://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/he/hn/coronavirus.asp_
> 
> *Data clearly supports the reopening of schools this fall, and even the CDC is urging reopening with in-person instruction: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/schools-childcare/reopening-schools.html*
> _
> It is imperative that parents speak out regarding this subject and let local and state decision-makers know that in-person instruction is necessary for your family and community. I urge you to contact your local school board to make your voice heard along with your County Public Health Officer. Now is the time for us to engage our representatives with data-driven facts about why returning to school is vital to our communities._
> 
> *An important piece of legislation to school reopening is AB 1384 (O’Donnell):*
> 
> This Bill will excempt schools from any liability having to do with COVID-19 transmission.
> This is a primary aspect as to why many schools are deciding to remain closed for Fall.
> This bill is still pending a hearing in the Senate Judiciary Committee. It will die in the Senate if the Chair of Senate Judiciary Committee (Senator Hannah-Beth Jackson) refuses to set the bill for hearing.
> If you support this bill and schools reopening, please call the Senate Judiciary Committee and office of Hannah-Beth Jackson to urge that they set the bill for hearing.
> Senator Jackson’s Capitol office can be contacted at (916) 651-4019.
> 
> _I recently released an op-ed explaining further why educational choice is essential in the era of COVID-19 you can read at this link: __https://www.lassennews.com/educational-choice-is-essential-in-the-era-of-covid-19/_
> 
> Please reach out to our office if you need any assistance. We are all in this together.
> 
> View attachment 24585Assemblywoman Megan Dahle



You gotta be kidding me.   In-person learning is_ so safe_ that a legislative *exemption from liability* is in order? Grant school districts the kind of liability shield scored by meat-packing plants, for example?  If the risk is so negligible based on science and public health data, why is an exemption from liability be relevant to the discussion? Surely, surely, the issue won't even come up because nobody's going to get sick, right?  Any claim brought would fail for lack of evidence, right?  No jury would buy any such claim ... because the science/health data is so clear that there'd be no  -- anyone?  anyone?  -- evidence to support the claim?  Right? Anyone? Bueller?
I am done. Gn


----------



## geekette

....
I would rather get Covid and be sick for a few weeks, than get diabetes and be sick for 20+ years and possibly die like a vegetable over many years.

We all have our diseases of choice. 



Holy Moly.

I leave for a few hours and this is where we are???


No, NOBODY gets their disease Of Choice.  

COVIN has some vegetative implications as well.


----------



## geekette

....I am one of the few Tuggers who subscribes and reads these highly respected media sources. I know because when I post links without copying and pasting any text, many people say it is behind a paywall. 

You have no idea what you are talking about on this point.


----------



## geekette

travelpager said:


> You gotta be kidding me.  In-person learning is_ so safe_ that a legislative *exemption from liability* is in order? Grant school districts the kind of liability shield scored by meat-packing plants, for example?  If the risk is so negligible based on science and public health data, why is an exemption from liability be relevant to the discussion? Surely, surely, the issue won't even come up because nobody's going to get sick, right?  Any claim brought would fail for lack of evidence, right?  No jury would buy any such claim ... because the science/health data is so clear that there'd be no  -- anyone?  anyone?  -- evidence to support the claim?  Right? Anyone? Bueller?
> I am done. Gn


And where oh where is the instant testing?   

All this time when we shouldn't be in crowds, but, hey, they're just kids, let's see what really happens to them.   

People aren't lab rats, this is not ok.


----------



## TravelTime

travelpager said:


> You gotta be kidding me.   In-person learning is_ so safe_ that a legislative *exemption from liability* is in order? Grant school districts the kind of liability shield scored by meat-packing plants, for example?  If the risk is so negligible based on science and public health data, why is an exemption from liability be relevant to the discussion? Surely, surely, the issue won't even come up because nobody's going to get sick, right?  Any claim brought would fail for lack of evidence, right?  No jury would buy any such claim ... because the science/health data is so clear that there'd be no  -- anyone?  anyone?  -- evidence to support the claim?  Right? Anyone? Bueller?
> I am done. Gn



My question was why is the CDC saying kids should go back to school in person? I am just wondering. Not advocating either way.

There has been talk about greedy lawyers trying to sue people. This is probably why the schools do not want to open up. I would not be surprised if it is more about liability than health.

A big reason I do not re-open my office is due to liability. I do not want to get sued by an employee or client who claims they got Covid in my office.


----------



## TravelTime

geekette said:


> ....I am one of the few Tuggers who subscribes and reads these highly respected media sources. I know because when I post links without copying and pasting any text, many people say it is behind a paywall.
> 
> You have no idea what you are talking about on this point.



Can you explain what you mean and why I have no clue about what I am talking about?


----------



## DannyTS

travelpager said:


> You gotta be kidding me.  In-person learning is_ so safe_ that a legislative *exemption from liability* is in order? Grant school districts the kind of liability shield scored by meat-packing plants, for example?  If the risk is so negligible based on science and public health data, why is an exemption from liability be relevant to the discussion? Surely, surely, the issue won't even come up because nobody's going to get sick, right?  Any claim brought would fail for lack of evidence, right?  No jury would buy any such claim ... because the science/health data is so clear that there'd be no  -- anyone?  anyone?  -- evidence to support the claim?  Right? Anyone? Bueller?
> I am done. Gn


 You should not see it as a testimony of about safety or lack of. As we all know, there is not shortage of baristas that would file a suit about almost anything. The science IS very clear, you should look at the CDC recommendation which is to open the schools.


----------



## TravelTime

geekette said:


> ....
> I would rather get Covid and be sick for a few weeks, than get diabetes and be sick for 20+ years and possibly die like a vegetable over many years.
> 
> We all have our diseases of choice.
> 
> 
> 
> Holy Moly.
> 
> I leave for a few hours and this is where we are???
> 
> 
> No, NOBODY gets their disease Of Choice.
> 
> COVIN has some vegetative implications as well.



When I said we all have our diseases of choice, I mean that some of us are scared of one disease, other are scared of a different one. I am more scared of AIDS and diabetes than I am of Covid. This is the truth, not something I am making up or some farfetched theory.


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> I do not have any one source for this comment. It is an observation from reading many comments by teachers in op-eds and quotes in articles. It would be nearly impossible for me to back track all the articles I read daily in NYT, WSJ and WaPo. I am one of the few Tuggers who subscribes and reads these highly respected media sources. I know because when I post links without copying and pasting any text, many people say it is behind a paywall.
> 
> However, I was able to track down a few articles just by typing a few keywords but, other than The Atlantic, these are not my usual sources of information. I just can‘t find any articles right now from my preferred sources.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I teach public school. I love my students. I don't want to die | CNN
> 
> 
> I am a public school teacher and I don't want to die. As the question of whether and how to reopen schools in the fall intensifies, with parents and especially politicians expressing their opinions, I want to ask: Has anyone asked what we want to do in the fall?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> School reopening in Arizona will be a success until how many teachers (or others) die?
> 
> 
> If in-person schooling begins Aug. 17, as Gov. Doug Ducey has aspired to, how many COVID-19 casualties are acceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> www.azcentral.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Defense of Our Teachers
> 
> 
> When it comes to the daunting question of reopening schools, America’s educators deserve a plan, not a trap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This last article says: Teachers want to teach, not die, and we should support and protect them like the national treasures that they are. For without them, where would we be?
> 
> I think parents are panicking less and at least half or more of parents want their Kids back in school full time or they want a mix of virtual and in person school.


Not one of those articles states panic or any teacher talking about immediate death.  They are again opinion pieces and I have no problem with your opinion.  You are entitled to your opinion on risk vs reward of opening schools.   You are not entitled to refer to a different opinion as panicking and using obvious inflammatory speech of "meaning immediate death".  A lot of parents and teachers are agonizing over the decision on what to do this fall and a little empathy for those making any decision is needed.


----------



## DannyTS

All I can say is that many people will have a much lower esteem about teachers after this pandemic. Especially those that have been working all this time find it shameful. No more excuses, go back to work like most other people. You will have to find a way to make it work, it is not others' job to find solutions that you will keep on rejecting.


----------



## Ken555

This was published today. I believe it’s available at no charge but you need to create an account.



> Most American parents think it is unsafe to send their children back to school given the risks of the novel coronavirus, and more than 80 percent favor holding school at least partly online, according to a Washington Post-Schar School survey conducted by Ipsos. But parents also express serious concerns with online schooling and many are drawn to systems that mix the two. The mixed feelings reflect deep and widespread anxiety among parents as they approach the end of a summer break that has produced no national consensus on how to balance the risks of the virus against the academic, social and economic impacts of keeping schools closed.





			https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/post-poll-schools-parents-covid-trump/2020/08/05/f04ae490-d722-11ea-9c3b-dfc394c03988_story.html
		


This link is for the actual poll questions and results:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/cont...parents/f7552bde-6f87-4e1a-83a2-268953720ff5/ 







Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Pathways

DannyTS said:


> You should not see it as a testimony of about safety or lack of. As we all know, there is not shortage of baristas that would file a suit about almost anything. The science IS very clear, you should look at the CDC recommendation which is to open the schools.


Not sure if you read my earlier post:

_A family has retained a law firm and filed suit against a district that has not opened yet. They say their son has a disability, and the school district is violating the Americans with Disabilities Act by not servicing their son in person at the school. The IEP the district worked out for remote learning doesn't fully meet his needs. _

This was filed today. Who doesn't get why legislation is needed to eliminate liability?  The defense for stuff like this must be paid for by my and your tax dollars.


----------



## TravelTime

bluehende said:


> Not one of those articles states panic or any teacher talking about immediate death.  They are again opinion pieces and I have no problem with your opinion.  You are entitled to your opinion on risk vs reward of opening schools.   You are not entitled to refer to a different opinion as panicking and using obvious inflammatory speech of "meaning immediate death".  A lot of parents and teachers are agonizing over the decision on what to do this fall and a little empathy for those making any decision is needed.



I think Covid is a socially contentious issue and it is becoming a lose-lose proposition to discuss it anymore on TUG. I need to go back to minding my own business and not engaging in TUG discussions. Covid has become like discussing politics.


----------



## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> This was published today. I believe it’s available at no charge but you need to create an account.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/post-poll-schools-parents-covid-trump/2020/08/05/f04ae490-d722-11ea-9c3b-dfc394c03988_story.html
> 
> 
> 
> This link is for the actual poll questions and results:
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/cont...parents/f7552bde-6f87-4e1a-83a2-268953720ff5/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


in other words, 60% of the parents believe schools should open in person either full time or part time


----------



## TravelTime

DannyTS said:


> in other words, 60% of the parents believe schools should open in person either full time or part time



This is what I concluded too from the data.


----------



## travelpager

DannyTS said:


> You should not see it as a testimony of about safety or lack of. As we all know, there is not shortage of baristas that would file a suit about almost anything. The science IS very clear, you should look at the CDC recommendation which is to open the schools.



One literally cannot outline, much less discuss, the evolution of CDC recommendations on this subject without discussing politics. Can't be done and I won't try. 

Scurrilous lawyers exist and frivolous lawsuits are Bad Things. The fact remains that an exemption from liability implies a potential for legitimate claims against which the district should be shielded. Why exempt a broom manufacturer from liability based on claims that the broom caused you to sunburn every time you swept off the bench at lunchtime to enjoy the summer weather? No exemption necessary - the process exists to handle such folly. Else why not exempt everyone from everything? Suggesting that school districts need protection like what meat-packing plants received by dint of decree - the very idea implies predictions and anticipations that make my blood run cold. God bless public school staff, faculty, students and parents. I truly hope that I'm wrong, but this whole debacle may go a lot uglier than I first imagined.


----------



## DannyTS

Sorry, I am not buying the argument that the CDC changed its view based on political pressure. A lot of the initial recommendations were not practical and they had to come back to planet Earth. But to say that they recommended schools to open and kids, teachers, parents to die implicitly, based on politics, is slanderous. If they recommended it is because they see the risk to be extremely low.


----------



## geekette

TravelTime said:


> Can you explain what you mean and why I have no clue about what I am talking about?


You have declared that you are one of few who read some very specific sites and that you "know this because" sometimes someone posts that it is pay only. 

Extrapolating that to cover a large volume of people is ill-advised, especially when basing it on some posts of "hey, there's a pay wall."  

You don't know what I read.  You don't know what anyone reads.   You may have some incidental knowledge of this person or that not subscribing to certain sites, but it does not follow that you are "one of few".   I gotta call BS on that, unless you have access to viewing history for all the tuggers here and have deeply analyzed it to reach a conclusion.  I don't believe that to be the case.


----------



## geekette

TravelTime said:


> When I said we all have our diseases of choice, I mean that some of us are scared of one disease, other are scared of a different one. I am more scared of AIDS and diabetes than I am of Covid. This is the truth, not something I am making up or some farfetched theory.


Scared or not, if the crap gets ya, it gets ya!  Let's stop the damned epidemic instead of ranking who is more scared of what!   NOBODY needs this virus!  It kills, it maims.  There is significant proof of that all over the world.  

COVID doesn't care that you don't fear it.  COVID won't care if someone didn't fear it then suddenly does when they hear "we're going to have to put you to sleep to ventilate you...."   

Diabetes doesn't care about you, nor does AIDS.  Fear has absolutely zero to do with it.  this is a public health issue.  This virus is going to jump from host to host for as long as it can.   Some don't fear it and get to escape it, but some will not escape it and will be sorry they thought they would have a mild case, because they are healthy!


----------



## TravelTime

geekette said:


> You have declared that you are one of few who read some very specific sites and that you "know this because" sometimes someone posts that it is pay only.
> 
> Extrapolating that to cover a large volume of people is ill-advised, especially when basing it on some posts of "hey, there's a pay wall."
> 
> You don't know what I read.  You don't know what anyone reads.   You may have some incidental knowledge of this person or that not subscribing to certain sites, but it does not follow that you are "one of few".   I gotta call BS on that, unless you have access to viewing history for all the tuggers here and have deeply analyzed it to reach a conclusion.  I don't believe that to be the case.



Okay that is a fair observation. I deleted it from my post. I have been posting part of the content from the articles as a courtesy because when I just post a link, so many Tuggers have told me they can’t read it. I will stop doing this since, you are right, I do not know who reads what. For all I know, everyone here subscribes and reads a lot more than me. I suspect this is true of a lot of Tuggers given how much they post.


----------



## TravelTime

geekette said:


> Scared or not, if the crap gets ya, it gets ya!  Let's stop the damned epidemic instead of ranking who is more scared of what!   NOBODY needs this virus!  It kills, it maims.  There is significant proof of that all over the world.
> 
> COVID doesn't care that you don't fear it.  COVID won't care if someone didn't fear it then suddenly does when they hear "we're going to have to put you to sleep to ventilate you...."
> 
> Diabetes doesn't care about you, nor does AIDS.  Fear has absolutely zero to do with it.  this is a public health issue.  This virus is going to jump from host to host for as long as it can.   Some don't fear it and get to escape it, but some will not escape it and will be sorry they thought they would have a mild case, because they are healthy!



I am not saying that fear or lack of fear affects getting a disease. I was just commenting on myself. I know I can get Covid and I expect I will get it one day given how contagious it is.


----------



## bbodb1

As someone on the front line of education, I can state that I am not highly confident the procedures being implemented _*in the manner they are being implemented*_ are giving me much confidence that returning to school is likely to be successful.  But that feeling has to be balanced with an acknowledgement that we are facing a situation that none of us have previously experienced in our lifetimes.

There will not be any certainties with respect to returning to school.  
It can never be guaranteed that no one in and around a school will suffer - or even die - from COVID-19.  Or as a result of something else.  
But even in the face of this, we (collectively) have to find a way to get going again because the deviation from the normal (usual) routines of life are (eventually) just as problematic as the disease. 

The other hard fact COVID-19 has reaffirmed is the primary use of our education system has been (for quite some time) a daycare system first, with education concerns secondary.  Prior to COVID-19, when the subject of discussion was the quality of education provided by our primary and secondary schools, there was nowhere near this much attention on reforming and improving the quality of education.  Let's hope that changes.


----------



## SteelerGal

W/ less than 30 days away from the beginning of the school year, my primary focus is my 2 special needs children.  Because of the Gov mandate, we will start DL platform.  Hopefully if we reach the mandated positivity rate sooner or later, we will be granted an elementary waiver to return in person.  However, I will gladly keep my non SN children w/ DL learning if their SN siblings can return in person FT.  Although SN parents and SD are fighting to have the Gov approve a waiver for SN children, the request continues to be denied at this point.  Covid has shown how school reform is very much needed.  Especially for SN children.  Many families in my SD have received limited or zero Services since March.  Services that can not translate easily virtually.  Now these same families including myself, are required to choose a school path not based on educational factors but based on health factors.  This is why you will continue to see a # of lawsuits filed on the behalf of SN children and their families.  Unfortunately, lawsuits are the only way to ensure SN children receive FAPE.  

Side note, I am truly disgusted by the attacks of fellow parents who disagree w/ SD decision to hold traditional school programs for SN children.  Many SN parents would gladly send our children to quality specialized schools if they weren’t cost prohibitive.


----------



## bogey21

I struggle with the logic that part online, part in person is better than either all online or all in person...

George


----------



## Country Roads

bogey21 said:


> I struggle with the logic that part online, part in person is better than either all online or all in person...
> 
> George



George, were you ever a mediator or perhaps play one on T.V.?


----------



## bbodb1

Country Roads said:


> George, were you ever a mediator or perhaps play one on T.V.?



_Judge George?  _


----------



## TravelTime

Interesting...I did not think any schools were reopening in person.









						Trump Vows to Issue Executive Orders if Coronavirus Relief Talks Collapse (Published 2020)
					

New York’s governor said schools could reopen for in-person instruction, but he left the details up to the districts. Africa surpasses a million confirmed cases, though the real number may be higher.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## TravelTime

‘I Was a Little Scared’: Inside America’s Reopening Schools (Published 2020)
					

In their first week back, students have faced altered classrooms and emergency quarantines. Here’s what they say school is like in the age of Covid-19.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## TravelTime

A lot of Interesting articles today in NYT









						They’re Children at Risk of Abuse, and Their Caseworkers Are Stuck Home (Published 2020)
					

Scores of investigations into allegations of abuse or neglect have been delayed or sharply curtailed during the coronavirus pandemic, records and interviews show.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Ken555

bogey21 said:


> I struggle with the logic that part online, part in person is better than either all online or all in person...
> 
> George



I believe there was an article posted here a week or so ago re the use of two groups of students, one which would attend in person Monday and Tuesday and the other Thursday and Friday. On Wednesday the school would be thoroughly cleaned and disinfected, etc. Of all the partial in person plans I've read, it actually sounded the best to me. Of course, in practice who knows how it would go.


----------



## Cornell

bogey21 said:


> I struggle with the logic that part online, part in person is better than either all online or all in person...
> 
> George


George - a lot of critics of hybrid plans bring up the fact that children involved will then be cared for on their "non-school" days by places like YMCAs, daycares, etc. , which then brings up the issue that the children are being exposed to EVEN more people.


----------



## Ken555

Suspension Lifted of Georgia Student Who Posted Photos of Crowded Hal



> Although she agreed that she had breached the school’s policy, which prohibits filming students and posting their images to social media without their consent, Hannah said in an interview that she did not regret doing so as the images had shed light on the crowding and lack of social distancing in her school.
> 
> “My mom has always told me that she won’t get mad at us if we get in trouble as long as it’s ‘good trouble,’” Hannah said, invoking the famous phrase of Representative John Lewis, the civil rights leader who was laid to rest in Atlanta last week. “You’re bettering society and bettering the world, so those consequences don’t outweigh the end result.”











						Suspension Lifted of Georgia Student Who Posted Photos of Crowded Hall (Published 2020)
					

“The photo does not look good,” the district’s superintendent acknowledged in a letter to parents, but said wearing masks in school could not be mandated.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Ken555

A Mississippi town welcomed students back to school last week. Now 116 are home in quarantine.




> Last week, schools in Corinth, Miss., welcomed back hundreds of students. By Friday, one high-schooler tested positive for the novel coronavirus. By early this week, the count rose to six students and one staff member infected. Now, 116 students have been sent home to quarantine, a spokeswoman for the school district confirmed.
> 
> Despite the quick fallout, the district’s superintendent said he has no plans to change course.






			https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/06/school-coronavirus-outbreak-mississippi/


----------



## bbodb1

From the suspension article Ken cited above: 


> ...The district’s guidelines say staff members will do their best to require students to maintain social distancing, but note that it would “not be possible to enforce social distancing in classrooms or on school buses unless it is a class or a bus with fewer students.”...



This summarizes the problem in that most school districts will not make the effort to change policies and procedures they know to be dangerous in the midst of COVID-19 (and would be in the best health interest of all concerned) - most likely because they (the district) have been waiting for guidance from the state DOE while concurrently the state DOE leaves these decisions to local school boards.  It is a catch 22.

There is NO excuse for situations like this - solutions are out there. 

Yes, transitions between class changes are one of the high traffic congestion times.  Can it be mitigated - absolutely.  The use of class pods can work - even in high schools - and let the teachers swap rooms NOT the students.  And while there are some rooms (classes) where swapping is not practical (thinking about shop, P.E., band, etc) - pods can still be formed and those groups moved at staggered times to decrease hallway congestion. 

It CAN be improved.  Districts must take the initiative.


----------



## Ken555

bbodb1 said:


> There is NO excuse for situations like this - solutions are out there.



Exactly. This situation shows how unprepared we are for exceptional situations.



> Yes, transitions between class changes are one of the high traffic congestion times.  Can it be mitigated - absolutely.  The use of class pods can work - even in high schools - and let the teachers swap rooms NOT the students.



I discussed this exact concept with friends recently, and none of us understood why we didn't see reports of this being considered more often. I'm sure there are advocates for this concept. Sure, it would restrict and undoubtedly disappoint some students for not being able to choose their own classes, or even lose a particular class, but it's all about safety.



> And while there are some rooms (classes) where swapping is not practical (thinking about shop, P.E., band, etc) - pods can still be formed and those groups moved at staggered times to decrease hallway congestion.



I would think band or orchestra would only happen outside, which wouldn't always be possible. Many can't wear masks, and I'd be astonished if wind instruments didn't push the virus across the entire room in a second.



> It CAN be improved.  Districts must take the initiative.



Yeah, but will they? And, they shouldn't ultimately be responsible for solving this problem.


----------



## Pathways

Ken555 said:


> I would think band or orchestra would only happen outside, which wouldn't always be possible. Many can't wear masks, and I'd be astonished if wind instruments didn't push the virus across the entire room in a second.



So, do you think the choir teacher still has full classes?


----------



## Ken555

Pathways said:


> So, do you think the choir teacher still has full classes?



Of course they shouldn't. Do they? Well, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that some areas of the country still have it...

[Personal comment redacted]


----------



## Cornell

I'm sharing something that is becoming a regular thing in the Chicago suburbs.  Schools open for remote learning ONLY, but many of the schools are opening up their schools for "virtual learning camps" or some other name.  This just defies logic to me -- the schools can't be open for actual school, but they can be open , and staffed, for "virtual school".  

Here's a screenshot from one school district's offerings.  This is not a one-off -- it's happening all over the place. 

For context, District 62 is NOT a well-to-do area.  Many of the people living here are probably scraping to pay their property taxes, much less this supplemental fee to have their kids go to somewhere safe.


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> For context, District 62 is NOT a well-to-do area.  Many of the people living here are probably scraping to pay their property taxes, much less this supplemental fee to have their kids go to somewhere safe.



It states in the email that "the District will be subsidizing part of the cost of this program for families who are currently experiencing financial hardship."


----------



## Pathways

Ken555 said:


> Of course they shouldn't



Shouldn't? Seriously?  I'm for opening schools, but if choir is still on the class choice list, then I would have to take a look at the entire binder they used for 'safe school opening'

Of course, what do I know. (Not a choir person).  Someone will probably chime in and 'educate me' that there is a lot of textbook opportunities for choir.


----------



## Cornell

Ken555 said:


> It states in the email that "the District will be subsidizing part of the cost of this program for families who are currently experiencing financial hardship."


Sure , that's for people that are on the free lunch program .  But what about the typical middle class family that is getting taxed to death already - most of which is to pay for schools.  It's just flat out BS.  And again, it begs the question -- how is this safe, but in person school not?


----------



## Ken555

Pathways said:


> Shouldn't? Seriously?  I'm for opening schools, but if choir is still on the class choice list, then I would have to take a look at the entire binder they used for 'safe school opening'
> 
> Of course, what do I know. (Not a choir person).  Someone will probably chime in and 'educate me' that there is a lot of textbook opportunities for choir.



We are in agreement. Not sure why you put "seriously?" Based on what we've seen so far, I'm not sure why any school reopening would be considered safe.


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> Sure , that's for people that are on the free lunch program .  But what about the typical middle class family that is getting taxed to death already - most of which is to pay for schools.  It's just flat out BS.  And again, it begs the question -- how is this safe, but in person school not?



That's obviously an appropriate concern. It's probably all about the $$.


----------



## Cornell

Ken555 said:


> That's obviously an appropriate concern. It's probably all about the $$.


I"m also going to add that it says the district will provide the subsidy.  Where do those subsidies come from?  Thin air?  Tax payers - who have already paid for school!


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> I"m also going to add that it says the district will provide the subsidy.  Where do those subsidies come from?  Thin air?  Tax payers - who have already paid for school!



I would suggest that taxes is a separate topic from school reopening, and we shouldn't discuss it on TUG.


----------



## Cornell

Ken555 said:


> I would suggest that taxes is a separate topic from school reopening, and we shouldn't discuss it on TUG.


You are the one who brought up subsidies


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> You are the one who brought up subsidies



I did not mention taxes.

You posted the email with the subsidy info - not I. I simply quoted it, since you complained about the cost of the program for those who couldn't afford it.


----------



## Cornell

Ken555 said:


> I did not mention taxes.
> 
> You posted the email with the subsidy info - not I. I simply quoted it, since you complained about the cost of the program for those who couldn't afford it.


Sure , Ken


----------



## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> A Mississippi town welcomed students back to school last week. Now 116 are home in quarantine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/06/school-coronavirus-outbreak-mississippi/


*"Despite the quick fallout, the district’s superintendent said he has no plans to change course.*" Exactly, you do not keep millions of kids at home, you deal with the problems if and when they arise.


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> Sure , Ken



Laura, 

Please try to be fair. I know being objective is difficult, but all you have to do is read a few posts here... You like blaming me, so I get it, but this is a step too far re taxes.

Ken


----------



## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> Laura,
> 
> Please try to be fair. I know being objective is difficult, but all you have to do is read a few posts here... You like blaming me, so I get it, but this is a step too far re taxes.
> 
> Ken


no, it is not a step too far, it is at the core of the discussion. If the teachers had not gotten paid during the pandemic, they would be rallying to open up the schools ASAP.


----------



## Country Roads

*Montgomery Health Officials Rescind Order to Close Private Schools*

Montgomery County says private schools can hold in-person instruction after a struggle with the governor over their ability to reopen.

Montgomery County has been one of the hardest hit counties in the state by the coronavirus. There is a total of 18,139 confirmed cases and over 700 deaths, as of Friday. 

The county Health Officer Travis Gayles is walking back the initial order and an amended order aimed to force private schools to only meet online as the county saw a rise in cases.

The State Health Department then said on Thursday that *blanket closures of nonpublic schools were prohibited by county leaders.* 


"Pleased to see that Montgomery Co. has rescinded the blanket mandate closing private and parochial schools. As long as their plans follow CDC and state guidelines, they should have the same flexibility as public school systems & be empowered to do what’s best for their community."
Governor Larry Hogan









						Montgomery Health Officials Rescind Order to Close Private Schools
					

Montgomery County says private schools can hold in-person instruction after a struggle with the governor over their ability to reopen. The decision comes after several orders were issued a back and forth by the county and Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan about whether private and parochial schools...




					www.nbcwashington.com


----------



## cman

Cornell said:


> I'm sharing something that is becoming a regular thing in the Chicago suburbs.  Schools open for remote learning ONLY, but many of the schools are opening up their schools for "virtual learning camps" or some other name.  This just defies logic to me -- the schools can't be open for actual school, but they can be open , and staffed, for "virtual school".
> 
> Here's a screenshot from one school district's offerings.  This is not a one-off -- it's happening all over the place.
> 
> For context, District 62 is NOT a well-to-do area.  Many of the people living here are probably scraping to pay their property taxes, much less this supplemental fee to have their kids go to somewhere safe.
> 
> View attachment 24611


This is outrageous. How do they justify charging $25-$45 per day for this??? The money they're currently receiving from taxpayers should be covering the cost.


----------



## Cornell

@cman This is going on EVERYWHERE in my area.  Not just this particular school district.  And again, if this is "safe" , why can't we just have school?  I just don't understand.


----------



## bbodb1

Ken555 said:


> Suspension Lifted of Georgia Student Who Posted Photos of Crowded Hal


----------



## bbodb1

DannyTS said:


> no, it is not a step too far, it is at the core of the discussion. If the teachers had not gotten paid during the pandemic, they would be rallying to open up the schools ASAP.



I have to admit that when I heard we were closing due to the pandemic back in March, many thoughts went through my mind.  At some point though, the issue of whether or not we would get paid did indeed cross my mind.  In my case, which was _not_ a typical one, I found myself working more hours from home that I would have at school for about 4 (or so) weeks as one of my jobs was to help iron our remote access issues.  Once that had been accomplished, I really had very little to do.

I relate that because I do think schools could have opted to lay some people off while instructing remotely and no one would have noticed  - but I have to admit I never asked why our district did not.....


----------



## TravelTime

I was beat up on this thread yesterday by a small contingent of Tuggers - 3 in particular. However, my views are pretty mainstream. I am reading many Tuggers posts and I agree with many of them. Many Tuggers are more liberal than me when it comes to Covid. I see Tuggers doing riskier things than I do and having a more liberal attitude about Covid. None of us are conspiracy theorists, if that is what you are thinking. We are all responsible citizens who do not want to spread the virus. I am offended by people who accuse me of being part of the problem as to why the USA is having its problems. I am probably more responsible than others, despite my kicking and screaming about the CDC guidelines.


----------



## bbodb1

TravelTime said:


> I was beat up on this thread yesterday by a small contingent of Tuggers - 3 in particular. However, my views are pretty mainstream. I am reading many Tuggers posts and I agree with many of them. Many Tuggers are more liberal than me when it comes to Covid. I see Tuggers doing riskier things than I do and having a more liberal attitude about Covid. None of us are conspiracy theorists, if that is what you are thinking. We are all responsible citizens who do not want to spread the virus. I am offended by people who accuse me of being part of the problem as to why the USA is having its problems. I am probably more responsible than others, despite my kicking and screaming about the CDC guidelines.



When one takes a position that is very different from others, you do become a convenient target.  I was in a similar position with respect to the mask argument and it is true when many people take a similar stance on a topic, a sort of groupthink occurs.  The majority believes there is correctness in numbers but a majority conclusion is not exempt from being fallible.  Nonetheless, it does make your position harder when you have to defend it from so many.  But if we fail to consider all possible options, our conclusions are made on less than solid foundations.


----------



## bluehende

bbodb1 said:


> When one takes a position that is very different from others, you do become a convenient target.  I was in a similar position with respect to the mask argument and it is true when many people take a similar stance on a topic, a sort of groupthink occurs.  The majority believes there is correctness in numbers but a majority conclusion is not exempt from being fallible.  Nonetheless, it does make your position harder when you have to defend it from so many.  But if we fail to consider all possible options, our conclusions are made on less than solid foundations.


Or maybe it is the words like panicky and comments on their mental stability and thoughts that are the problem as opposed to the opinion.


----------



## Country Roads

bluehende said:


> Or maybe it is the words like panicky and comments on their mental stability and thoughts that are the problem as opposed to the opinion.


It seems that statement is true of many. Not just one side of the fence so to speak.


----------



## bluehende

Country Roads said:


> It seems that statement is true of many. Not just one side of the fence so to speak.


And if you look back I have "beaten up" both sides on this issue.


----------



## Brett

TravelTime said:


> I was beat up on this thread yesterday by a small contingent of Tuggers - 3 in particular. However, my views are pretty mainstream. I am reading many Tuggers posts and I agree with many of them. Many Tuggers are more liberal than me when it comes to Covid. I see Tuggers doing riskier things than I do and having a more liberal attitude about Covid. None of us are conspiracy theorists, if that is what you are thinking. We are all responsible citizens who do not want to spread the virus. I am offended by people who accuse me of being part of the problem as to why the USA is having its problems. I am probably more responsible than others, despite my kicking and screaming about the CDC guidelines.




I don't see school re-openings as a "liberal" or "conservative" issue although I understand some have politicized it that way

Yes, we are all responsible citizens who do not want to spread the virus.   And maybe you currently have children in school, I don't know.   But if my children were still in school I would certainly be concerned about their safety and quality of education.   In my school district there are currently two options for parents this fall -  "hybrid" and "fully virtual".
If my children were still in school I think I would choose the "hybrid" option -  but I'm glad I don't have to make that choice


----------



## jackio

Ken555 said:


> I believe there was an article posted here a week or so ago re the use of two groups of students, one which would attend in person Monday and Tuesday and the other Thursday and Friday. On Wednesday the school would be thoroughly cleaned and disinfected, etc. Of all the partial in person plans I've read, it actually sounded the best to me. Of course, in practice who knows how it would go.



That is my district, on Long Island.  However the special needs students will go all 5 days.
The parents weighed in, and now the district is also offering an all-virtual option for the parents who do not feel comfortable sending their children at all.

The district also, on Wednesday, announced that it would offer its employees who are not comfortable returning, a one-year leave of absence - unpaid and with no benefits, but keeping seniority.  Not just for teachers, but for every staff member.  It has yet to be seen how many people can or will take advantage of this.


----------



## Country Roads

bluehende said:


> And if you look back I have "beaten up" both sides on this issue.



It seems that, with 30 pages I just don't see that. You're certainly entitled to whatever opinion you may have and do agree with the others who disagree bbodb1 and others but please, don't claim the middle of the road. Should I be wrong let me know and point me to what you consider "beaten up".


----------



## bbodb1

Now that is an interesting development....


jackio said:


> The district also, on Wednesday, announced that it would offer its employees who are not comfortable returning, a one-year leave of absence - unpaid and with no benefits, but keeping seniority.  Not just for teachers, but for every staff member.  It has yet to be seen how many people can or will take advantage of this.


...as i am thinking this may cause some headcount overage in the '21-'22 school year.  @jackio - do you know if the district is offering just a one year contact (with no guarantee of return) to anyone hired to fill in this year?  Hard to imagine a great deal of demand for a position with a terminal contract date noted....

I will have to give the district credit for trying this approach though - leave no stone unturned.


----------



## TravelTime

bluehende said:


> Or maybe it is the words like panicky and comments on their mental stability and thoughts that are the problem as opposed to the opinion.



There we no comments on anyone’s mental stability. I do not see why a word like “panicky” would be offensive. There was an article in the WSJ this week describing the entire country as worried. It is true that many people are more anxious these days than normally. I do not find it offensive if someone would describe me as worried or anxious or even panicky if I were acting or thinking that way. I tend to have an anxious streak and my husband is always commenting on it. I am not offended by it at all.


----------



## TravelTime

Brett said:


> I don't see school re-openings as a "liberal" or "conservative" issue although I understand some have politicized it that way
> 
> Yes, we are all responsible citizens who do not want to spread the virus.   And maybe you currently have children in school, I don't know.   But if my children were still in school I would certainly be concerned about their safety and quality of education.   In my school district there are currently two options for parents this fall -  "hybrid" and "fully virtual".
> If my children were still in school I think I would choose the "hybrid" option -  but I'm glad I don't have to make that choice



I was not using these terms in a political sense. To me, it is liberal (in the common usage of the term) to want kids back in school 100% and conservative (in the common usage of the word) to want to keep kids home 100%. The hybrid model falls in between the two extremes.

If I had children in school, I would also choose the hybrid model. I would probably set up learning pods too. I am concerned that kids are not going to get a decent education if they go all virtual so I would supplement it with extra stuff.


----------



## Cornell

@jackio What your district is offering with the leave of absence seems pretty fair to me .


----------



## TravelTime

bluehende said:


> Not one of those articles states panic or any teacher talking about immediate death.  They are again opinion pieces and I have no problem with your opinion.  You are entitled to your opinion on risk vs reward of opening schools.   You are not entitled to refer to a different opinion as panicking and using obvious inflammatory speech of "meaning immediate death".  A lot of parents and teachers are agonizing over the decision on what to do this fall and a little empathy for those making any decision is needed.



If we are getting literal, then this is what I said: “I think parents and teachers are panicking like Covid means immediate death. I have heard teachers saying “I am not willing to die in the classroom.”

I never said I read an article where “immediate death“ was used. I used “I think” before describing my interpretation. Then I said that I have heard teachers say they do not want to die. The articles I posted all refer to not wanting to die due to teaching BUT these were not the articles I read before bc I can’t find them. All I did was a google search with this phrase “teacher do not want to die” and a bunch of articles popped up.

I almost did not post any articles because I knew you would discredit them anyway.


----------



## SmithOp

TravelTime said:


> I was not using these terms in a political sense. To me, it is liberal (in the common usage of the term) to want kids back in school 100% and conservative (in the common usage of the word) to want to keep kids home 100%. The hybrid model falls in between the two extremes.
> .



This is interesting, maybe its all interpretation of the definition, to my thinking liberal used as an adjective means open to alternative options for education and conservative means only considering traditional methods.

From the dictionary:

lib·er·al

adjective
1.
open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.
"they have more liberal views toward marriage and divorce than some people"
2.
(of education) concerned mainly with broadening a person's general knowledge and experience, rather than with technical or professional training.


versus 

con·serv·a·tive

adjective
holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## TravelTime

SmithOp said:


> This is interesting, maybe its all interpretation of the definition, to my thinking liberal used as an adjective means open to alternative options for education and conservative means only considering traditional methods.
> 
> From the dictionary:
> 
> lib·er·al
> 
> adjective
> 1.
> open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.
> "they have more liberal views toward marriage and divorce than some people"
> 2.
> (of education) concerned mainly with broadening a person's general knowledge and experience, rather than with technical or professional training.
> 
> 
> versus
> 
> con·serv·a·tive
> 
> adjective
> holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro



You are right. I was thinking that in how I was using the terms, that it is conservative to keeps kids home because then you reduce risk. So in that regard it is conservative. In common usage, people who are conservative do not like to take risks. So it meets the definition of being cautious. It is much safer to keep kids home 100%.

Right now, the liberals are conservative and the conservatives are liberal (if you know what I mean).


----------



## SmithOp

TravelTime said:


> You are right. I was thinking that in how I was using the terms, that it is conservative to keeps kids home because then you reduce risk. So in that regard it is conservative. In common usage, people who are conservative do not like to take risks. So it meets the definition of being cautious. It is much safer to keep kids home 100%.
> 
> Right now, the liberals are conservative and the conservatives are liberal (if you know what I mean).



Oh yes, I understood what you meant was in terms of the risk involved.

The world does seem upside down right now, people are polarized in their thinking.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Cornell

bluehende said:


> A lot of parents and teachers are agonizing over the decision on what to do this fall and a little empathy for those making any decision is needed.


Conversely -- a little empathy could be given to those parents and children where no choice has been given (e.g. only  virtural).  For those families, it's not just getting a sub-standard education but figuring out how this is going to work if you have working parents or are a single parent.  And then somehow scrounging up extra $$ to cover various expenses b/c kids aren't in school.


----------



## TravelTime

Bad WSJ, it says teachers are anxious.









						Teachers’ Coronavirus Back-to-School List: Masks, Face Shields, Scrubs
					

Many states and districts say they will provide protective equipment as U.S. schools reopen, but some teachers are anxious about when the gear will arrive and what it will be.




					www.wsj.com
				




“In a good year, teaching is one of the only professions where workers are forced to buy their own supplies to subsidize what should be a cost borne by the employer,” she said. Now, she added, “It’s become a *matter of life and death*.”

“A lot of the teachers that come in are buying because they’re not sure what they’ll be given,” he said. “*There’s a lot of anxiety.”*


----------



## bluehende

Cornell said:


> Conversely -- a little empathy could be given to those parents and children where no choice has been given (e.g. only  virtural).  For those families, it's not just getting a sub-standard education but figuring out how this is going to work if you have working parents or are a single parent.  And then somehow scrounging up extra $$ to cover various expenses b/c kids aren't in school.





bluehende said:


> I have no problem with your opinion.


----------



## Cornell




----------



## bluehende

1 in 4 teachers at risk for severe coronavirus infection, report finds
					

New data suggests 1.47 million education professionals could face serious cases of the virus if schools resume.




					thehill.com
				




New data from the Kaiser Family Foundation, however, may guide public health experts to an answer; a new report suggests that approximately 24 percent of teachers are at a greater risk for becoming infected with a serious coronavirus infection. 

Put differently, that figures accounts for almost 1.5 million teachers, or roughly 1 in 4.


----------



## jme

Myrtle Beach Clamping Down Again?
					

Buddy of mine says Myrtle Beach is "shutting down" again.  Any info?




					tugbbs.com
				












						Healthy Travel Information | Visit Myrtle Beach
					

The health and safety of visitors to the Myrtle Beach area is paramount, Visit Myrtle Beach is committed to providing travelers with accurate and timely information about traveling to the area safely. Learn more.



					www.visitmyrtlebeach.com
				




Per link above "Closures and Cancellations", *THIS* is the concerning part:
*SCHOOLS/COLLEGES*

*Coastal Carolina University* classes are taking place online and will resume on campus in fall 2020 coastal.edu
*Horry-Georgetown Technical College* classes are taking place online and will resume on campus in fall 2020 hgtc.edu
*All South Carolina K-12 Public Schools will remain closed through the end of the school year.* horrycountyschools.net/hcs

Addendum:
Thanks for the corrections bbodb1 & Country Roads....looks like '19-20 school year.


----------



## bbodb1

This


jme said:


> *All South Carolina K-12 Public Schools will remain closed through the end of the school year.* horrycountyschools.net/hcs



..I believe refers to the '19-'20 school year....not the '20-'21 school year.
But that web page is very poorly organized.....


----------



## Country Roads

jme said:


> Myrtle Beach Clamping Down Again?
> 
> 
> Buddy of mine says Myrtle Beach is "shutting down" again.  Any info?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Healthy Travel Information | Visit Myrtle Beach
> 
> 
> The health and safety of visitors to the Myrtle Beach area is paramount, Visit Myrtle Beach is committed to providing travelers with accurate and timely information about traveling to the area safely. Learn more.
> 
> 
> 
> www.visitmyrtlebeach.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Per link above "Closures and Cancellations", *THIS* is the concerning part:
> *SCHOOLS/COLLEGES*
> 
> *Coastal Carolina University* classes are taking place online and will resume on campus in fall 2020 coastal.edu
> *Horry-Georgetown Technical College* classes are taking place online and will resume on campus in fall 2020 hgtc.edu
> *All South Carolina K-12 Public Schools will remain closed through the end of the school year.* horrycountyschools.net/hcs



I think they were talking about the school year that has ended and not the upcoming year.

Longer school days among recommendations for reopening SC’s K-12 schools in the fall

South Carolina has published draft guidelines for schools to get students back into the classroom in the fall.

Read more here: https://www.thestate.com/news/local/education/article243431711.html#storylink=cpy


----------



## Country Roads

bbodb1 said:


> This
> 
> 
> ..I believe refers to the '19-'20 school year....not the '20-'21 school year.
> But that web page is very poorly organized.....


Sorry, didn't see yours.


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## bbodb1

No worries @Country Roads!


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## TravelTime

This is just one of many examples as to why I think the schools should stay closed until the legal issues are worked out. Many people are just waiting to sue. I have no idea why anyone would say there is not a mass level of anxiety about the probability of dying from Covid.

From Facebook:
“I swear, I think I'd respond with a legal document they had to sign that held them PERSONALLY as well as the school district accountable for all medical bills, healthcare for long-term effects of the virus, death benefit, and pain and suffering, should I or my child get COVID after I was exposed at the school before I'd go back to work! If they refused, I'd say, "So you want me to put my life and the life of my newborn at risk, but won't take any responsibility for that demand. Have I got that right?" and get that in writing or on video, too.”


----------



## Luanne

Deleted.


----------



## DannyTS

bluehende said:


> 1 in 4 teachers at risk for severe coronavirus infection, report finds
> 
> 
> New data suggests 1.47 million education professionals could face serious cases of the virus if schools resume.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thehill.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New data from the Kaiser Family Foundation, however, may guide public health experts to an answer; a new report suggests that approximately 24 percent of teachers are at a greater risk for becoming infected with a serious coronavirus infection.
> 
> Put differently, that figures accounts for almost 1.5 million teachers, or roughly 1 in 4.



Has the same foundation studied the essential workers' data to have a base for comparison?

The study was made by a foundation that contributes almost exclusively to one party and is probably very aligned politically with the teachers' unions. People under 60 have a very low chance of dying from Covid, it is virtually the same as from the flu. The data is hard to believe especially since many teachers retire early (so the average age cannot be that high), many are women (less at risk) and they usually have a healthier lifestyle. Like always, teachers want a preferential treatment ignoring that so many have gotten back to work already.


----------



## bluehende

KFF
					

Filling the need for trusted information on national health issues




					www.kff.org


----------



## Cornell

I’m curious.... are their public schools that are NOT providing a remote option ?


----------



## Theiggy

Cornell said:


> I’m curious.... are their public schools that are NOT providing a remote option ?



Yes. The district I work for is not giving a remote option. If you don’t send your child to school you have to sign them out and homeschool. This could change though.

The district where I live is giving an option for full time remote if we choose. 


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## Cornell

Theiggy said:


> Yes. The district I work for is not giving a remote option. If you don’t send your child to school you have to sign them out and homeschool. This could change though.
> 
> The district where I live is giving an option for full time remote if we choose.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you ! Would you mind sharing which state you are in ?


----------



## Theiggy

@jackio I think it’s awesome that your district is giving teachers that option. 

@bbodb1 I don’t think they would have a problem in Long Island hiring teachers even for one year. These positions are very sought after and lots of young teachers who would start out in a 1 year leave or move out from the city to work on Long Island.


----------



## TravelTime

Theiggy said:


> @jackio I think it’s awesome that your district is giving teachers that option.
> 
> @bbodb1 I don’t think they would have a problem in Long Island hiring teachers even for one year. These positions are very sought after and lots of young teachers who would start out in a 1 year leave or move out from the city to work on Long Island.



I read that teachers in Long Island make 6 figure incomes. If that is correct, it explains why it is a sought after job.


----------



## Theiggy

Cornell said:


> Thank you ! Would you mind sharing which state you are in ?



Long Island, NY


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## Theiggy

TravelTime said:


> I read that teachers in Long Island make 6 figure incomes. If that is correct, it explains why it is a sought after job.



Yes some do. We also have a very high COL and taxes off the charts! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jackio

Theiggy said:


> @jackio I think it’s awesome that your district is giving teachers that option.
> 
> Thank you.  I thought that it was a very compassionate gesture.  It's for all staff, not just teachers.
> 
> 
> @bbodb1 I don’t think they would have a problem in Long Island hiring teachers even for one year. These positions are very sought after and lots of young teachers who would start out in a 1 year leave or move out from the city to work on Long Island.



They will hire "leave replacements" which are given a 1 year contract with benefits, coming in on step 1, which is approx. 54K for a teacher with a master's degree.
Teachers who get their foot in the door as a leave replacement have a good chance of being hired when a permanent position opens up.

The custodians who will step in, however, will be on the frontlines of cleaning and disinfecting, will make about $32K.

We have one nurse who just had a baby and will opt out for the year (after her 12 week FMLA is over).  Her replacement will make $43 K, which is about one half of what hospital nurses make here on Long Island.
School nurses are not mandated in NY state, so they are paid much less than teachers and private sector nurses.  The reason schools can get nurses to work for that salary is the schedule.  No more nights/weekends/holidays.

NYS has legislation for a retirement incentive in committee now.  If the law passes, I think we will see several "at risk" employees retiring on short notice.  I am 11 months from retiring, so it would pay for me to ride out the school year.  I am 61 and, being the school nurse, will have direct close contact with ill students, so I will have to weigh my options should I be given the opportunity for an early out.


----------



## geekette

Theiggy said:


> Yes some do. We also have a very high COL and taxes off the charts!


It has been a while, but I thought I'd read that LI was the highest COL.


----------



## Theiggy

geekette said:


> It has been a while, but I thought I'd read that LI was the highest COL.



Yes I think Nassau County is or was #1. Just to clarify as Jackio said teachers don’t make $100k to start - more like between 50-68k depending on degree and varies by district. Just for perspective, my taxes on a 1700sq foot house are about 12k before any exemptions. 


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----------



## SteelerGal

Cornell said:


> I'm sharing something that is becoming a regular thing in the Chicago suburbs.  Schools open for remote learning ONLY, but many of the schools are opening up their schools for "virtual learning camps" or some other name.  This just defies logic to me -- the schools can't be open for actual school, but they can be open , and staffed, for "virtual school".
> 
> Here's a screenshot from one school district's offerings.  This is not a one-off -- it's happening all over the place.
> 
> For context, District 62 is NOT a well-to-do area.  Many of the people living here are probably scraping to pay their property taxes, much less this supplemental fee to have their kids go to somewhere safe.
> 
> View attachment 24611


In our area, our SD did open the afterschool program the following week after closures.  It was open for the remainder of the school year and then it reopened for Camp.  Camp will end the Friday before start of school and then it’s reopened for regular school year.
Our SD worked hard to ensure that the daycare program remains available after polling families.  Now it is not subsidized.  Parents are still paying full price.  And because school version is an expensive option, we are fortunate to have other local options as well: City run programs, YMCA, Tutoring Groups, Boys and Girls Club.  I know our SD doesn’t offer scholarships so thankfully there are other options available.  
Many of the subsidized programs are given $$$ from local businesses and/or via grants.  Many of the programs also do not have skilled tutors  who will help your child w/ school work.  Also many are licensed under a different entity so the requirements can be less restrictive than schools.(Our SD daycare mirrors school).


----------



## geekette

Theiggy said:


> Just for perspective, my taxes on a 1700sq foot house are about 12k before any exemptions.


<gulp>
I pay about $1500 a year for 3000 sq ft, usually we are near the 1 mark for COL index.


----------



## SteelerGal

Many SD are using school facilities as daycares since many daycare facilities closed due to Covid.  I am also a member of a local daycare provider group and many do not accept school age.  The only option is SD daycare.  
The #s of children are significantly less.  I believe they have 50/max day.  Pods of 10 w/ 1 adult(State daycare requirement).  Separated by grade group.  Fully masked.  They are together the entire day.  Daycare utilizes 4 classrooms max on campus.

The difference w/ our City option is they are in loose pods and outdoors all day.


----------



## Ken555

97,000 children reportedly test positive for coronavirus in two weeks as schools gear up for instruction









						97,000 children reportedly test positive for coronavirus in two weeks as schools gear up for instruction
					

Experts hope increased testing of children will help determine what role they play in transmission, as school districts around the country return to some form of school.




					www.cbsnews.com
				





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----------



## jackio

My daughter just received the plan from her children's district.  They are in for full days, 5 days a week.  Parents who choose virtual learning will have their kids follow the school day and hook in to the classroom via internet.  They will have the same lessons that the in-person children have.  She has not decided whether or not to send my granddaughter.
An interesting aspect - they say the classrooms can hold 20 students socially distancing, and they must wear masks at all times. Each class typically has around 25 students.   Should there be over 20 that show up for school that day, the extra students will be sent to an "overflow" area where they will watch the lessons onscreen, just as the virtual learning students so.  They said they will rotate who has to leave the classroom.  I find this rather distressing.  I think they are banking on many parents choosing the virtual learning option.


----------



## DannyTS

bluehende said:


> View attachment 24656
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KFF
> 
> 
> Filling the need for trusted information on national health issues
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kff.org


this is not a trustworthy poll, out of 1313 people interviewed, only 308 have children in school so the poll is as unscientific as it can get when it comes to what parents actually want


----------



## bluehende

DannyTS said:


> this is not a trustworthy poll, out of 1313 people interviewed, only 308 have children in school so the poll is as unscientific as it can get when it comes to what parents actually want
> View attachment 24669


LOL   title of poll is parents with kids who normally attend school.









						AP-NORC poll: Very few Americans back full school reopening
					

BOSTON (AP) — Virtual instruction. Mandated masks. Physical distancing. The start of school will look very different this year because of the <a href="https://apnews...




					apnews.com


----------



## Cornell

bluehende said:


> LOL   title of poll is parents with kids who normally attend school.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AP-NORC poll: Very few Americans back full school reopening
> 
> 
> BOSTON (AP) — Virtual instruction. Mandated masks. Physical distancing. The start of school will look very different this year because of the <a href="https://apnews...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com


I’d like to see these survey results filtered by adults with school age kids


----------



## bluehende

Cornell said:


> I’d like to see these survey results filtered by adults with school age kids


The first one I posted contrary to one persons opinion was.  The way I would like to see it is normalized by the amount of virus that is in the community.  My guess is this has more bearing on opinion than any other factor.  This has to be the toughest nut to crack in those whole pandemic.  My hope is that whatever school districts decide they have the resources needed and are willing to be nimble if conditions change.  As much as we would like a clear path forward there is none available.

edited to add this article with this poll









						Polls: Parents Are Hurting Without Child Care But In No Rush To Reopen Schools
					

In two new polls, a majority of parents say they prefer delaying in-person school reopening, despite the personal and economic toll.




					www.npr.org
				




The ParentsTogether poll surveyed more than 1,200 parents about reopening schools and child care needs and found similar results.



59% of respondents agreed that "schools should remain closed until they are certain there is no health risk, even if means students fall farther behind."
19% agreed that "schools should reopen as soon as possible so students don't fall too far behind and can receive the educational support they need." 
 

45% of parents said they were "not planning" or were "somewhat unlikely" to send their children back to school even if it opened, while another 22% were unsure.


----------



## DannyTS

bluehende said:


> LOL   title of poll is parents with kids who normally attend school.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AP-NORC poll: Very few Americans back full school reopening
> 
> 
> BOSTON (AP) — Virtual instruction. Mandated masks. Physical distancing. The start of school will look very different this year because of the <a href="https://apnews...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com


"lol" was completely misplaced. The first poll you posted has the number of parents spelled out in the methodology (if you cared to read) 308 out of  1310 people surveyed.  That is a very small sample especially since other factors seem to play a big role in how people answer. 








						KFF Health Tracking Poll – July 2020 - Methodology
					

This KFF Health Tracking Poll was designed and analyzed by public opinion researchers at the Kaiser Family Foundation (KFF). The survey was conducted July 14-19, 2020, among a nationally representa…




					www.kff.org
				




The second one you posted now shows that 69% of people want schools open one way or another. So I guess you can take back the "lol"


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> I’d like to see these survey results filtered by adults with school age kids





DannyTS said:


> "lol" was completely misplaced. The first poll you posted has the number of parents spelled out in the methodology (if you cared to read) 308 out of  1310 people surveyed.  That is a very small sample especially since other factors seem to play a big role in how people answer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KFF Health Tracking Poll – July 2020 - Methodology
> 
> 
> This KFF Health Tracking Poll was designed and analyzed by public opinion researchers at the Kaiser Family Foundation (KFF). The survey was conducted July 14-19, 2020, among a nationally representa…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kff.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second one you posted now shows that 69% of people want schools open one way or another. So I guess you can take back the "lol"



You are correct. One of the surveys shows 69% want schools open one way or another and only 31% said not at all. The title of that article is completely misleading. This is in contrast to the Kaiser poll. I guess polls are not so reliable. Look what happened in 2016.


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> You are correct. One of the surveys shows 69% want schools open one way or another and only 31% said not at all. The title of that article is completely misleading. This is in contrast to the Kaiser poll. I guess polls are not so reliable. Look what happened in 2016.


Two totally different samples for these polls so percentages aren’t comparable


----------



## bluehende

DannyTS said:


> oh, now you posted a third one... what do you know about how this poll was conducted? Nothing at all. You do not know if it was a representative sample or if just the most vocal people responded, you do not know anything about those that were polled. You do not even know what method was used (phone, internet, mail etc). The lack of info should make you pause before posting it.
> 
> What we do know however, is that the organization is political, they give themselves away right in this "survey":
> 
> *"Parents overwhelmingly oppose tying school funding to re-opening, a proposal favored by the President and Senate Republicans.  "*
> 
> Browsing through the other pages, I also see they were encouraging protests...
> 
> View attachment 24678
> 
> another one that show they are political activists:
> 
> View attachment 24679
> 
> 
> 
> and another one. I will stop here, it is just obvious this is another political hit job disguised as a parent organization
> 
> View attachment 24680


one was the ap.  Instead of denigrating please supply data to the contrary.


----------



## DannyTS

bluehende said:


> one was the ap.  Instead of denigrating please supply data to the contrary.


Why posting the obvious is denigrating? I do not have to supply any *more* data, even your own other poll  (AP) and Ken's showed about 2 out of 3 parents want kids to return to school either full time or hybrid.

I actually personally support a hybrid system but it has nothing to do with safety, I enjoy spending more time with them and if one of us can work from home once or twice a week, it would be great.


----------



## bluehende

@Cornell 

Here is an interesting one that breaks out total population and population with kids in school.  There does not seem to be a big difference.









						Poll: Teachers, Parents Wary of Returning to Schools Without COVID-19 Vaccine
					

Just 46 percent of those responding to a USA Today/Ipsos poll said they would support students and teachers returning to schools this fall before there is a vaccine against the virus.




					blogs.edweek.org


----------



## needvaca

bluehende said:


> one was the ap.  Instead of denigrating please supply data to the contrary.


I’m a parent. I posted a poll/Survey from my actual school district of 8000 students in this thread a few days ago. 85% of parents want to return to in person school. It’s real. Our schools are offering a remote option. The teachers union wants it. Parents want in school. We are at odds. 
My parent friends in other districts have surveys and have had similar results. All the local Chicago suburban schools are offering remote but parents and students want school!


----------



## DannyTS

bluehende said:


> Here is an interesting one that breaks out total population and population with kids in school.  There does not seem to be a big difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poll: Teachers, Parents Wary of Returning to Schools Without COVID-19 Vaccine
> 
> 
> Just 46 percent of those responding to a USA Today/Ipsos poll said they would support students and teachers returning to schools this fall before there is a vaccine against the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> blogs.edweek.org


did you see the date? It is almost 3 months old


----------



## Cornell

needvaca said:


> I’m a parent. I posted a poll/Survey from my actual school district of 8000 students in this thread a few days ago. 85% of parents want to return to in person school. It’s real. Our schools are offering a remote option. The teachers union wants it. Parents want in school. We are at odds.
> My parent friends in other districts have surveys and have had similar results. All the local Chicago suburban schools are offering remote but parents and students want school!


There is no doubt that we are being held hostage here in IL by the teachers unions . An exception is D28 in Northbrook. They are opening. And guess what ? They are one of the few school districts in our area that is non union .


----------



## needvaca

bluehende said:


> @Cornell
> 
> Here is an interesting one that breaks out total population and population with kids in school.  There does not seem to be a big difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poll: Teachers, Parents Wary of Returning to Schools Without COVID-19 Vaccine
> 
> 
> Just 46 percent of those responding to a USA Today/Ipsos poll said they would support students and teachers returning to schools this fall before there is a vaccine against the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> blogs.edweek.org


This is a teacher poll, not a parent poll. Teacher unions are fighting hard against going back to school and skewing information for their benefit. 
Taxpayers with schoolage kids want to go back to school


----------



## needvaca

Cornell said:


> There is no doubt that we are being held hostage here in IL by the teachers unions . An exception is D28 in Northbrook. They are opening. And guess what ? They are one of the few school districts in our area that is non union .


Held hostage is right. 
We just got a district email today that our schools likely won’t open as planned because they cannot get enough teachers to “commit to coming back to school”. I’m furious. Parents are furious


----------



## bluehende

needvaca said:


> This is a teacher poll, not a parent poll. Teacher unions are fighting hard against going back to school and skewing information for their benefit.
> Taxpayers with schoolage kids want to go back to school



from the study


Here are the results for *parents* and the overall public. "Total support" is the total of respondents who said they "strongly support" or "somewhat support" the measure in question.


----------



## Cornell

Ken555 said:


> Seems like it’s time to bash the unions... my, how this thread has evolved.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Calling it like I see it .


----------



## Ken555

Here’s another interesting poll.









						Fewer U.S. Parents Want Full-Time In-Person Fall Schooling
					

Since early summer, fewer parents of K-12 students now want full-time in-person instruction for their children, and more want full-time remote learning.




					news.gallup.com
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> Here’s another interesting poll.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fewer U.S. Parents Want Full-Time In-Person Fall Schooling
> 
> 
> Since early summer, fewer parents of K-12 students now want full-time in-person instruction for their children, and more want full-time remote learning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.gallup.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


so no matter how we slice it, most parents still want kids to return to school


----------



## Ken555

For Michigan...









						Poll: Half of Michigan says their schools aren’t safe during COVID-19 | Bridge Michigan
					

Despite planned safety protocols in schools, half of residents surveyed aren’t sold on the notion of returning children to classroom settings in the midst of a global pandemic. Thirty-six percent said schools would be safe, a drop since earlier polling.




					www.bridgemi.com
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> For Michigan...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poll: Half of Michigan says their schools aren’t safe during COVID-19 | Bridge Michigan
> 
> 
> Despite planned safety protocols in schools, half of residents surveyed aren’t sold on the notion of returning children to classroom settings in the midst of a global pandemic. Thirty-six percent said schools would be safe, a drop since earlier polling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bridgemi.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


this is also 2.5 months old and those polled were registered voters not parents


----------



## Ken555

DannyTS said:


> this is also 2.5 months old.



Sure, Danny. I must be imagining the date on the page and in the article re the poll dates.







Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Cornell

Ken555 said:


> For Michigan...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poll: Half of Michigan says their schools aren’t safe during COVID-19 | Bridge Michigan
> 
> 
> Despite planned safety protocols in schools, half of residents surveyed aren’t sold on the notion of returning children to classroom settings in the midst of a global pandemic. Thirty-six percent said schools would be safe, a drop since earlier polling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bridgemi.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Great, that’s MI . In Illinois , as @needvaca has pointed out, we want our schools open and survey after survey justify that.


----------



## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> Sure, Danny. I must be imagining the date on the page and in the article re the poll dates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


sorry, another linked opened... or maybe you changed it. Regardless, they did not poll parents but registered voters. Big difference.


----------



## Ken555

DannyTS said:


> so no matter how we slice it, most parents still want kids to return to school



Glad you changed your post, since you initially wrote that parents were 4x more likely to approve in school education, when it is the opposite. 

This poll doesn’t agree with you, but there are so many out there and so many with different criteria, number of respondents, etc, that is difficult to get a final result. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555

DannyTS said:


> sorry, another linked opened... or maybe you changed it. Regardless, they did not poll parents but registered voters



You know it. I control that news site and changed the date in five minutes so that you don’t appear to have made a mistake. Gotcha. 

Sure, Danny. Anything else I can change for you?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> Glad you changed your post, since you initially wrote that parents were 4x more likely to approve in school education, when it is the opposite.
> 
> This poll doesn’t agree with you, but there are so many out there and so many with different criteria, number of respondents, etc, that is difficult to get a final result.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It happens to the best of us  But still, almost 4 to 1 they favor returning to school so I am  not sure what you were trying to prove


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> Great, that’s MI . In Illinois , as @needvaca has pointed out, we want our schools open and survey after survey justify that.



What I found interesting was the comment in the Gallup article:



> Parents residing in the West (74%) are more worried about their children getting the coronavirus than parents in the Northeast (65%), South (62%) and Midwest (52%), with increases of between 14 and 25 percentage points since the prior survey in all regions.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> You know it. I control that news site and changed the date in five minutes so that you don’t appear to have made a mistake. Gotcha.
> 
> Sure, Danny. Anything else I can change for you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


you are good indeed, this is what opened at the time


			https://ssl2002.webhosting.comcast.net/epic-mra/press/Stwd_Survey_June2020_FreePress_Freq.pdf


----------



## Ken555

DannyTS said:


> It happens to the best of us  But still, almost 4 to 1 they favor returning to school so I am not sure what you were trying to prove



What am *I* trying to prove? You don’t even live in the country. What are *you* trying to prove? 

And it’s not 4:1. But you didn’t read the polls I just posted, so... 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555

DannyTS said:


> you are good indeed, this is what opened at the time
> 
> 
> https://ssl2002.webhosting.comcast.net/epic-mra/press/Stwd_Survey_June2020_FreePress_Freq.pdf



Don’t know where you found that. The links I posted are in text and TUG/Tapatalk converts them to URLs. I did not post the link you refer to here. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> What am *I* trying to prove? You don’t even live in the country. What are *you* trying to prove?
> 
> And it’s not 4:1. But you didn’t read the polls I just posted, so...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


If I do not live in the country it means I am more neutral? Ken, I thought you had blocked me. I see you cannot live without me though, I will take it as a compliment


----------



## Ken555

DannyTS said:


> If I do not live in the country it means I am more neutral



You have got to be kidding. What a joke.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> You have got to be kidding. What a joke.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


no, seriously, what is your point? Do *you* have kids in school? What is your skin in the game?


----------



## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> Sure, Danny. Keep trying to blame me. That’s what you’re good at. You’re a foreigner and somehow you think your opinion is more valuable than mine, and now question my right to contribute an opinion. Really sorry I saw the Tapatalk alert and had the time to unblock you so I could see the posts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Since you had blocked me, I was not posting for you. But I see we are going back and forth like in the good old days. At least you are leaving @Cornell and @TravelTime alone. For now.


----------



## Ken555

Someone please tell a mod to clean this page up. I just reread the last ten or so posts, and most are off topic and unnecessary. What a waste of time. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555

DannyTS said:


> Since you had blocked me, I was not posting for you. But I see we are going back and forth like in the good old days. At least you are leaving @Cornell and @TravelTime alone. For now.



Well, I’m going to block you again. You clearly haven’t changed.

Yet another personal attack. Wondering how many it takes for you to get banned from TUG.

ETA: Laura liked your post, so clearly she’s not objective in the least when it comes to personal attacks. And now TravelTime agreed. Yup, the usual suspects. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## travelhacker

I'm just going to try to bring this back on topic:

Here in the Denver Metro area, most of the school districts near us are planning on doing a hybrid model where they have a couple of days in person, and a couple of days online.

Over 80% of parents in our school district favored in person instruction. At our school something like 95% of parents plan on sending their kids back to school.

While I would LOVE our daughter to be able to attend school in person and we plan on sending her to her first day in 9 days, I think in person instruction will likely get shut down by October. It'll take just a few outbreaks at schools in the district for them to make a drastic decision.

It is a classic no win situation. I feel bad for parents, teachers, and especially students. I don't know what the right answer is....I desperately wish we could get kids back to school, but I think most parents also value safety for their children and teachers and when cases start coming in I think the tide will turn.....I am holding out hope that it can be done reasonably safely.


----------



## TravelTime

travelhacker said:


> I'm just going to try to bring in back on topic:
> 
> Here in the Denver Metro area, most of the school districts near us are planning on doing a hybrid model where they have a couple of days in person, and a couple of days online.
> 
> Over 80% of parents in our school district favored in person instruction. At our school something like 95% of parents plan on sending their kids back to school.
> 
> While I would LOVE our daughter to be able to attend school in person and we plan on sending her to her first day in 9 days, I think in person instruction will likely get shut down by October. It'll take just a few outbreaks at schools in the district for them to make a drastic decision.
> 
> It is a classic no win situation. I feel bad for parents, teachers, and especially students. I don't know what the right answer is....I desperately wish we could get kids back to school, but I think most parents also value safety for their children and teachers and when cases start coming in I think the tide will turn.....I am holding out hope that it can be done reasonably safely.



Glad you got this back on topic after someone derailed the conversation.


----------



## Ken555

travelhacker said:


> I'm just going to try to bring this back on topic:
> 
> Here in the Denver Metro area, most of the school districts near us are planning on doing a hybrid model where they have a couple of days in person, and a couple of days online.
> 
> Over 80% of parents in our school district favored in person instruction. At our school something like 95% of parents plan on sending their kids back to school.
> 
> While I would LOVE our daughter to be able to attend school in person and we plan on sending her to her first day in 9 days, I think in person instruction will likely get shut down by October. It'll take just a few outbreaks at schools in the district for them to make a drastic decision.
> 
> It is a classic no win situation. I feel bad for parents, teachers, and especially students. I don't know what the right answer is....I desperately wish we could get kids back to school, but I think most parents also value safety for their children and teachers and when cases start coming in I think the tide will turn.....I am holding out hope that it can be done reasonably safely.



Why do you think parents want in school instruction if they, like you, believe it is inevitable that it will be a source of infection and will get closed? We have seen it happen already in several other schools which opened in the last week or two. Are you personally not worried about your kids getting C19? I’m curious... 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> Glad you got this back on topic after someone derailed the conversation.



Yes. It would be nice to restrain all comments to the topic. Like the multiple articles and polls I posted today and which resulted in very few responses (other than the one which derailed us in the last hour). 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Cornell

Ken555 said:


> Why do you think parents want in school instruction if they, like you, believe it is inevitable that it will be a source of infection and will get closed? We have seen it happen already in several other schools which opened in the last week or two. Are you personally not worried about your kids getting C19? I’m curious...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I can speak for my own situation. I certainly don’t want my daughter to get c19 , but I’m not worried about it .


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> I can speak for my own situation. I certainly don’t want my daughter to get c19 , but I’m not worried about it .



Thanks. 

This fits with that earlier survey that showed the Midwest with the lowest concern. It could be why Chicago is having such an issue, as you and others have indicated in this thread. FWIW, I don’t see it in LA. Every other parent I’ve spoken with have told me they would keep their kids home even if school was opening but then we are experiencing a huge outbreak in LA and schools are closed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

The West is liberal politically. The liberals are more likely to want to do online school. This is when the liberals are conservative and the conservatives are liberal.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> The West is liberal politically. The liberals are more likely to want to do online school. This is when the liberals are conservative and the conservatives are liberal.



Well, if you are saying that the west believes in science and is more concerned with safety, then yes I would agree. This, of course, has nothing to do with politics... 

Read the Gallup poll I posted earlier.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## travelhacker

Ken555 said:


> Why do you think parents want in school instruction if they, like you, believe it is inevitable that it will be a source of infection and will get closed? We have seen it happen already in several other schools which opened in the last week or two. Are you personally not worried about your kids getting C19? I’m curious...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Like most stuff in life there is a risk / reward scale. While we don't want COVID-19 we don't have any of the risk factors that could complicate things for us. I think our opinion may be a bit different if we were living in an area where things were more out of control. 

The reward in this case is that we believe that her quality of education will be better in person. She unfortunately is a little behind and fell further behind with online instruction. When we finished out Kindergarten (half day), we probably spent 5 hours a day doing homework, but she didn't seem to be learning as much. She is very bright, but we aren't trained educators and would have a hard time identifying any potential learning issues and get early intervention. We also didn't grow up with Common Core which is very different from what we learned, so when we do online instruction we aren't able to help her in a way that the current education system is trying to teach her.


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> Well, if you are saying that the west believes in science and is more concerned with safety, then yes I would agree. This, of course, has nothing to do with politics...
> 
> Read the Gallup poll I posted earlier.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Maybe us Californians are just more anxious than the hardy Midwesterners.


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> Maybe us Californians are just more anxious than the hardy Midwesterners.


Yes, us Midwesterners believe a dirty child is a healthy child


----------



## dmbrand

Cornell said:


> Yes, us Midwesterners believe a dirty child is a healthy child


Yep, you nailed it.  I am sure not all of us share this mentality, but many of us have descended from farming families...going way, way back. No antibacterial stuff, no ultra clean home, raising kids with dogs, cats, horses, chickens, gerbils, rats, reptiles, etc.  And yes, we vaccinate our children. 

But to the original discussion....our northern WI school district begins after Labor Day, and per their website, it plans to remain open for daily student instruction with parent/child virtual option.  The bussing schedule has not changed. We don’t have school age children, so we remain supportive of each individual’s choice.


----------



## bluehende

I will try to square this circle.  I do not believe the two sides 'arguing" are again mutually exclusive.  If a survey goes out judging interest in in person schooling it will be overwhelming in favor of it.  The polls Ken and I have been posting get a little more specific about conditions under which parents, teachers, and the public in general are willing to send their kids back to school.  I believe we are all monolithic in wanting our kids in school.  We are very divided in sending our kids to school under current and various proposed scenarios.


----------



## DannyTS

Let's hope they do not have to


dmbrand said:


> Yep, you nailed it.  I am sure not all of us share this mentality, but many of us have descended from farming families...going way, way back. No antibacterial stuff, no ultra clean home, raising kids with dogs, cats, horses, chickens, gerbils, rats, reptiles, etc.  And yes, we vaccinate our children.
> 
> But to the original discussion....our northern WI school district begins after Labor Day, and per their website, it plans to remain open for daily student instruction with parent/child virtual option.  The bussing schedule has not changed. We don’t have school age children, so we remain supportive of each individual’s choice.


I am actually concerned that this pandemic is creating a culture of excessive fear that will have negative  effects to the immune system in the long run. 






						Allergy in Children in Hand Versus Machine Dishwashing
					

BACKGROUND AND OBJECTIVE:. The hygiene hypothesis stipulates that microbial exposure during early life induces immunologic tolerance via immune stimulation, and hence reduces the risk of allergy development. Several common lifestyle factors and household practices, such as dishwashing methods...




					pediatrics.aappublications.org


----------



## Brett

DannyTS said:


> Let's hope they do not have to
> 
> I am actually concerned that this pandemic is creating a culture of excessive fear that will have negative  effects to the immune system in the long run.



similar to the 1918 Flu pandemic and plagues in the 13th and 14th century
a *"culture of excessive fear" *created weak individuals unable to cope with modern society


----------



## bbodb1

bluehende said:


> I will try to square this circle.  I do not believe the two sides 'arguing" are again mutually exclusive.  If a survey goes out judging interest in in person schooling it will be overwhelming in favor of it.  The polls Ken and I have been posting get a little more specific about conditions under which parents, teachers, and the public in general are willing to send their kids back to school.  I believe we are all monolithic in wanting our kids in school.  We are very divided in sending our kids to school under current and various proposed scenarios.


----------



## bbodb1

DannyTS said:


> I am actually concerned that this pandemic is creating a *culture of excessive fear* that will have negative effects to the immune system in the long run.





DannyTS said:


> I am actually concerned that this pandemic is creating a culture of excessive fear that will have *negative effects to the immune system in the long run*.



There's some deep thoughts for a Sunday morning.....interesting, Danny.


----------



## Ken555

9 cases of COVID-19 reported at North Paulding High School









						North Paulding High remains closed a third day after COVID cases
					

The Georgia school that became infamous for hallways crowded with unmasked students reported a half-dozen students and three staffers with coronavirus.




					www.ajc.com
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS

bluehende said:


> I will try to square this circle.  I do not believe the two sides 'arguing" are again mutually exclusive.  If a survey goes out judging interest in in person schooling it will be overwhelming in favor of it.  The polls Ken and I have been posting get a little more specific about conditions under which parents, teachers, and the public in general are willing to send their kids back to school.  I believe we are all monolithic in wanting our kids in school.  We are very divided in sending our kids to school under current and various proposed scenarios.



I agree with you 100% but I do not think the polls can capture how strongly  parents feel about different  theoretical options. Interpreting the answers can be quite a challenge and used inappropriately. I am going to grade my personal preferences to exemplify.

- in school 4 days a week, 1 day at home: 10
- in school 5 days a week: 8 or 9
- in school 3 days a week, 2 days at home: 8 or 9
- in school 2 days a week, 3 days at home: 5-6
- online classes only: 1

As you can see I am strongly in the camp of learning in school. A simplified poll though would not make it clear how _against_ _online only_ I am.

In my area, it seems like teaching will be in classes 5 days a week. My kids have already been in a day camp for 5 weeks, next week will be their 6th. On our street kids that have both parents essential workers  have been going to daycare since the beginning of the pandemic.


----------



## DannyTS

bbodb1 said:


> There's some deep thoughts for a Sunday morning.....interesting, Danny.


It happens the second Sunday of every month so stay tuned .

It is known that we need  exposure to the environment to keep our immune system in a  top shape. The current culture may mean that some people, especially older ones may make it through Covid only to be wiped out by the next virus that would have otherwise not been very damaging. Unless one thinks we can vaccinate all the time against everything. Not to mention that vaccines are not 100% effective.  Dr Fauci said a couple of days ago that a C19 vaccine may not be more than 50% effective, the chances to be highly effective are "not good".


----------



## Cornell

DannyTS said:


> I agree with you 100% but I do not think the polls can capture how strongly  parents feel about different  theoretical options. Interpreting the answers can be quite a challenge and used inappropriately. I am going to grade my personal preferences to exemplify.
> 
> - in school 4 days a week, 1 day at home: 10
> - in school 5 days a week: 8 or a 9
> - in school 3 days a week, 2 days at home: 8 or 9
> - in school 2 days a week, 3 days at home: 5-6
> - online classes only: 1
> 
> As you can see I am strongly in the camp of learning in school. A simplified poll though would not make it clear how _against_ _online only_ I am.
> 
> In my area, it seems like teaching will be in classes 5 days a week. My kids have already been in a day camp for 5 weeks, next week will be their 6th. On our street kids that have both parents essential workers  have been going to daycare since the beginning of the pandemic.


A really good survey researcher could design a survey to get this


----------



## DannyTS

Cornell said:


> A really good survey researcher could design a survey to get this


Oh, I agree with you, they are just not designed to get this.  More questions mean more expensive plus the polls may reach conclusions not desired by those that order them so why bother


----------



## cman

Who would have guessed?

*9 people test positive for coronavirus at Georgia school that went viral for crowded photo*









						9 people test positive for coronavirus at Georgia school that went viral for crowded photo
					

A student was initially suspended for sharing the photo.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## DannyTS

cman said:


> *Who would have guessed?*
> 
> *9 people test positive for coronavirus at Georgia school that went viral for crowded photo*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9 people test positive for coronavirus at Georgia school that went viral for crowded photo
> 
> 
> A student was initially suspended for sharing the photo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com



The video was taken Tuesday, Friday 9 people reported  positive. Presumably the tests were done 1-3 days before so the kids could have been positive before Tuesday.
Can you please point out where it said in the article that they caught it in school?


----------



## DannyTS

in the UK:

*Schools are reopening in September - what does the guidance say?*
Prime Minister Boris Johnson has announced that all children – across nurseries, primary and secondary schools, and colleges – will be back at school from September "on a full-time plan".

His words echo Education Secretary Gavin Williamson's promise to get all children back to school by the start of the next term. 

The Government has released guidelines for the new measures to be introduced, including: classes arranged into "bubbles", strict behaviour regimes, banning choirs and assemblies and even overhauling the curriculum. 









						Schools are reopening in September - what does the guidance say?
					

Following the latest government guidance, we ask: when schools reopen to all year groups what special provisions will be made?




					www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## geekette

DannyTS said:


> The video was taken Tuesday, Friday 9 people reported  positive. Presumably the tests were done 1-3 days before.
> Can you please point out where it said in the article that they caught it in school?


What science is available to show exact moment of infection?


----------



## DannyTS

geekette said:


> What science is available to show exact moment of infection?


do not ask me, ask cman. He wrote "so predictable" suggesting he knows kids got it in school


----------



## geekette

DannyTS said:


> do not ask me, ask cman. He wrote "so predictable" suggesting he knows kids got it in school


No, that implies that an infected person showed up to school and infected others.  If the only place a kid has been is home and school, it gets very obvious as to point of infection.  Identifying Patient 0 is not so easy, and even if identified, we will not know their identity.


----------



## Country Roads

geekette said:


> What science is available to show exact moment of infection?



And therein lies the problem.   

Did they perhaps contract the virus at home? Can you retrace each students steps outside the school? Far to many questions concerning precise location where each student came into contact with the virus. Not only the case with these carriers, but with anyone. When you have a 1-14 day period, if they still stand by that, you virtually have no way whatsoever, to determine exactly when or how anyone contracted the virus.


----------



## Tia

I find it worrisome that they suspended the video taker and warned others not to share anything that's maybe seen as negative. It shows a failure and authorities responsible didn't like it



cman said:


> Who would have guessed?
> 
> *9 people test positive for coronavirus at Georgia school that went viral for crowded photo*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9 people test positive for coronavirus at Georgia school that went viral for crowded photo
> 
> 
> A student was initially suspended for sharing the photo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com


----------



## TravelTime

It doesn’t matter where they caught it because they were in the school when they had it. So that means they may have spread it in the school to other students. If they caught it in the school, then that means someone else brought it into the school. The virus was not sitting in the school by itself waiting to attack someone.


----------



## bbodb1

Tia said:


> I find it worrisome that they suspended the video taker and warned others not to share anything that's maybe seen as negative. It shows a failure and authorities responsible didn't like it



I understand where you are coming from BUT what if the pictures being shown had been of a child in the middle of a nasty custody fight where one party did not know where the estranged parent / child had moved to?  That is the sort of thing administration is always reminding staff about - and on that front they are correct.  
While the video helped make the student's point, it might have put another student in danger.  Her commentary (words) should have sufficed..


----------



## DannyTS

Tia said:


> I find it worrisome that they suspended the video taker and warned others not to share anything that's maybe seen as negative. It shows a failure and authorities responsible didn't like it


If you work for a private company do the same and see how it goes. Most schools and businesses have rules against recording and especially against posting the content online. If you have minor kids, do you want their images on the net posted by random people? That kid who recorded or his parents could have talked to the principle without violating rules and privacy but they chose to go online. A suspension was OK if it was indeed against the rules.


----------



## cman

TravelTime said:


> It doesn’t matter where they caught it because they were in the school when they had it. So that means they may have spread it in the school to other students.


One of the infected kid's father said the exact same thing in this article;

_“They sat in class all day long with no masks and not social distancing,” Franks said. “And I have no idea how many kids they came into contact with.”

https://www.ajc.com/education/9-cas...lding-high-school/OWH6MN7DZ5A2XDQMXX337AQEWI/ _


----------



## SueDonJ

DannyTS said:


> do not ask me, ask cman. He wrote "so predictable" suggesting he knows kids got it in school


No, he wrote, "who would have guessed?" The answer is that anybody paying attention can rightly guess that whenever schools open, statistical odds are that at least one person is going to bring the virus in.


----------



## Luanne

One school superintendent in Arizona's personal point of view.

https://dianeravitch.net/2020/08/09/arizona-superintendent-reopening-school-now-is-a-fantasy/


----------



## SueDonJ

bbodb1 said:


> I understand where you are coming from BUT what if the pictures being shown had been of a child in the middle of a nasty custody fight where one party did not know where the estranged parent / child had moved to?  That is the sort of thing administration is always reminding staff about - and on that front they are correct.
> While the video helped make the student's point, it might have put another student in danger.  Her commentary (words) should have sufficed..



In a perfect world her commentary would suffice. We're not in a perfect world. We're in a world where credentialed experts in the pandemic field are vilified and threatened when their commentary based on actual scientific facts is weaponized in the name of politics. We're in a world where everything is suspect, where people have to be whomped upside the head with images that completely contradict the narrative that politicians desperately need us to believe.

The student who posted the photo knew the same as we all do that if she didn't post a photo her commentary wouldn't be believed.


----------



## TravelTime

The student who took the photo was un-suspended. It made no sense to me to suspend her for posting a photo of what was happening in her school. It sounds like the student was a whistleblower. Good for her!









						Georgia student who posted photo of a crowded school hallway and called it 'good and necessary trouble' no longer suspended
					

The mother of a student who was suspended after posting a photo on Twitter that showed her high school's crowded hallways this week tells CNN that her daughter's suspension has been reversed.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Country Roads

SueDonJ said:


> In a perfect world her commentary would suffice. We're not in a perfect world. We're in a world where credentialed experts in the pandemic field are vilified and threatened when their commentary based on actual scientific facts is weaponized in the name of politics. We're in a world where everything is suspect, where people have to be whomped upside the head with images that completely contradict the narrative that politicians desperately need us to believe.
> 
> The student who posted the photo knew the same as we all do that if she didn't post a photo her commentary wouldn't be believed.



Could it be your comments are simply personal opinion and not based on actual occurrences? We all have our own opinions regarding what are or are not, "_experts in the pandemic field_" and if they have been, as you put it, "..._ vilified and threatened when their commentary based on actual scientific facts is weaponized in the name of politics._". Should those who may disagree with that assumption ask for actual proof or could that be just a bit political? Also, just what would be, "... _the narrative that politicians desperately need us to believe._"?

As for the other Moderators and Administrator please keep in mind, I didn't open this door. One shouldn't post a comment and not expect a response of some sort.


----------



## DannyTS

I hope  CDCwould want to know everything about this case.  Kids and teachers were in contact for 4-5 days, 9 of them infected. Where the kids in the same class? Did the infected teachers teach any of those infected students? When did they have symptoms (if any)? How many other students got infected (same class or not). Did their families get infected? How about their friends in their class and their neighborhood? I think we deserve a lot more answers from this incident.


----------



## SueDonJ

Country Roads said:


> Could it be your comments are simply personal opinion and not based on actual occurrences? We all have our own opinions regarding what are or are not, "_experts in the pandemic field_" and if they have been, as you put it, "..._ vilified and threatened when their commentary based on actual scientific facts is weaponized in the name of politics._". Should those who may disagree with that assumption ask for actual proof or could that be just a bit political? Also, just what would be, "... _the narrative that politicians desperately need us to believe._"?
> 
> As for the other Moderators and Administrator please keep in mind, I didn't open this door. One shouldn't post a comment and not expect a response of some sort.



With absolutely no expertise I don't decide for myself who are "credentialed experts in the pandemic field" - instead I let the people who have worked in the field for decades share their non-political opinions about who qualifies for that descriptor. And I think it's foolhardy at this point after all that's transpired to not acknowledge that here in this country, "playing politics" on all sides has infiltrated and inhibited a reasonable, scientifically-based response to the pandemic. That's why I phrased my post as I did, without singling out any politicians for either derision or praise.


----------



## cman

delete


----------



## DannyTS

cman said:


> I think these are the "actual occurrences" she's referring to.
> 
> *Fauci Reveals He Has Received Death Threats And His Daughters Have Been Harassed*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fauci Reveals He Has Received Death Threats And His Daughters Have Been Harassed
> 
> 
> During an online forum sponsored by Harvard, Dr. Anthony Fauci discusses how his high-profile position has affected his family personally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


Who in the public domain has NOT received threats? I do not think you can use this as an argument for anything.


----------



## cman

DannyTS said:


> Who in the public domain has NOT received threats? I do not think you can use this as an argument for anything.


Why do you think everything is an "argument"? Fauci has been in the public domain for decades. This is a first for him and his family.


----------



## Country Roads

SueDonJ said:


> With absolutely no expertise I don't decide for myself who are "credentialed experts in the pandemic field" - instead I let the people who have worked in the field for decades share their non-political opinions about who qualifies for that descriptor. And I think it's foolhardy at this point after all that's transpired to not acknowledge that here in this country, "playing politics" on all sides has infiltrated and inhibited a reasonable, scientifically-based response to the pandemic. That's why I phrased my post as I did, without singling out any politicians for either derision or praise.



Thanks for the explinition however, let's simply agree to disagree on whether the post in question is "political" or not. For the sake of me, I can't remember anywhere that mentions that one must name or point out a particular politician or political party in order for a post to be "political". But nonetheless, as they say, you can't fight city hall.


----------



## DannyTS

DannyTS said:


> Who in the public domain has NOT received threats? I do not think you can use this as an argument for anything.



You used  the alleged death threat to  make an argument but you and SueDonJ actually score a point  in  the opposite direction. If we live in a highly contentious world, even more reasons for that mother to try to talk first to the administrators of the school rather than be on twitter.  Also, I do not think she has done her daughter a favor in the long term. But does that matter? She got her minute of fame NOW. 

There is public domain and public domain.  A lot of politicians, sometimes actors or musicians  have received deaths threats because there are always people who are nuts and the notoriety makes it easier for them to fixate on you. Dr Fauci was known in some circles but he was just a regular public servant until few months ago (Google trends); John Lennon did not close down half of the country but he got shot, his assassin said that  that he was angered by Lennon's lifestyle and public statements (!?), go figure. 
The Swedish top doctor also  received death threats, this is unfortunately how it works. 








						Loved and loathed, Sweden's anti-lockdown architect is unrepentant
					

As the architect of Sweden's unorthodox response to the coronavirus pandemic, Anders Tegnell has got used to receiving death threats and being urged to resign.




					www.reuters.com
				




The doctor who prescribes and studies a certain drug also received death threats, the list is endless.  








						Esteemed French Dr. Didier Raoult Testifies Person Behind Death Threats He Received Is Top Doctor Linked to Gilead Pharmaceuticals
					

Way back in late March Laura Ingraham reported on the latest study by the French research team led by the renowned epidemiologist Dr. Didier Raoult that was able to repeat his findings from a previous study. This time Dr. Raoult administered hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin to 80 patients and...




					www.thegatewaypundit.com


----------



## DannyTS

Country Roads said:


> Thanks for the explinition however, let's simply agree to disagree on whether the post in question is "political" or not. For the sake of me, I can't remember anywhere that mentions that one must name or point out a particular politician or political party in order for a post to be "political". But nonetheless, as they say, you can't fight city hall.


You will see comments like: "if we  had a national policy", if we had smart leaders who listened to the science" and so on. Their intentions are clear.


----------



## Brett

DannyTS said:


> You will see comments like: "if we  had a national policy", if we had smart leaders who listened to the science" and so on. Their intentions are clear.



right, and 'they also say -  if only we lived in a socialist welfare state like Sweden where people have government run healthcare and high taxes and don't wear masks 
Their intentions are clear


----------



## DeniseM

Danny - Do you have a job, or a partner, or children, or hobbies? Friends? A pet? A book you're reading? Exercise you enjoy? Video games? TV? Music? Other social  media? A timeshare?  *Anything besides arguing about C19 on TUG?*


----------



## Country Roads

Brett said:


> right, and 'they also say -  if only we lived in a socialist welfare state like Sweden where people have government run healthcare and high taxes and don't wear masks
> Their intentions are clear


----------



## Country Roads

DeniseM said:


> Danny - Do you have a job, or a partner, or children, or hobbies? Friends? A pet? A book you're reading? Exercise you enjoy? Video games? TV? Music? Other social  media? A timeshare?  *Anything besides arguing about C19 on TUG?*



Would that also be true of those that argue with him?


----------



## bbodb1

SueDonJ said:


> In a perfect world her commentary would suffice. We're not in a perfect world. We're in a world where credentialed experts in the pandemic field are vilified and threatened when their commentary based on actual scientific facts is weaponized in the name of politics. We're in a world where everything is suspect, where people have to be whomped upside the head with images that completely contradict the narrative that politicians desperately need us to believe.
> 
> The student who posted the photo knew the same as we all do that if she didn't post a photo her commentary wouldn't be believed.



HOWEVER, did she check to make sure any students in her photos were on a do not publish list?  Each school has such a list which is supposed to be checked / verified prior to publishing anything that might be seen by the public for the reasons I mentioned above (and others).  *In this case*, I agree the ends justify the means but the rule about not publishing photos / videos of students does have some very valid reasons for existing. 

With respect to your point about credentialed experts being vilified, it seems like it wasn't all that long ago when credentialed experts could disagree and, as a result of the disagreement, find ways to further the knowledge in a field.  The problem today is this discourse takes place in view of the media, and the process of reconciling differences of opinion on issues (be they medical, financial, economic, social - anything) has become a siege mentality.  Much of the media has played a significant role in the race to the intellectual bottom of this process, but the experts and the lay public have not helped either. 

Finally, I'll pose this to you - if you (the public) are faced with two opposing points of view by the 'experts', what are you supposed to do?  Who do you believe?  How do you reconcile this?
If COVID-19 has taught us anything, it is that knowledge acquisition is a process - one that takes time to play out.  And that runs counter to our demand for knowing everything this instant.


----------



## DeniseM

> Would that also be true of those that argue with him?


In the past 1.5 days, Danny has posted 32 times about C19 - I don't see anyone else with that level of fascination with this topic.


----------



## DannyTS

DeniseM said:


> Danny - Do you have a job, or a partner, or children, or hobbies? Friends? A pet? A book you're reading? Exercise you enjoy? Video games? TV? Music? Other social  media? A timeshare?  *Anything besides arguing about C19 on TUG?*


No


----------



## TravelTime

DeniseM said:


> In the past 1.5 days, Danny has posted 32 times about C19 - I don't see anyone else with that level of fascination with this topic.



That’s it? I thought he posted a lot more than that about C-19 in the past 1.5 days.


----------



## DeniseM

OK - I'm starting a GoFundMe account to buy Danny a partner, children, hobbies, friends, a pet, a book, exercise equipment, video games, a TV,  music, social media, and a timeshare. If you will contribute a dollar please like this post. Or if you'd like to donate your partner or children, love this post!


----------



## Country Roads

DeniseM said:


> OK - I'm starting a GoFundMe account to buy Danny a partner, children, hobbies, friends, a pet, a book, exercise equipment, video games, a TV,  music, social media, and a timeshare. If you will contribute a dollar please like this post. Or if you'd like to donate your partner or children, love this post!



C'mon Denise, you're better than this. Try looking at your buddy Ken. 40 posts and that's only the first 21 pages! 

Remember, verify, verify, verify!


----------



## DeniseM

I actually haven't read this thread - the TUG C19 debates (and I use the word "debates" very loosely) have gotten to be deadly dull.  It's the same people, beating the same dead horses day after day.  The worst offenders are trying to dog whistle their political/social agendas - again, boring.


----------



## DannyTS

Denise, I guess you only count and rank the comments you do not agree with.

In any case, thank you for this, I assume you are serious, probably serious enough you may even match the contributions. Thank you. I will probably keep it up just to make sure the contributions reach a certain level, otherwise you know people have a short term memory and your little GoFundMe movement may be forgotten prematurely. The list is long as you said, I do not even know how much children can cost, maybe you can let us know. Thank you.


----------



## DeniseM

Children cost a fortune - for the best results, get the job, partner and video games first.

Ken has 18 posts on this topic in the last 1.5 days. Very sad; I used to know Ken before he went to the dark side.


----------



## DannyTS

DeniseM said:


> Children cost a fortune - for the best results, get the job, partner and video games first.
> 
> Ken has 18 posts on this topic in the last 1.5 days. Very sad; I used to know Ken before he went to the dark side.


I see he had 33 posts about Covid in the last 2 days (not only this thread) .  Probably in the last month he has had 3 times more posts about Covid (I was not "too" active at one point) but who cares. It does not matter, perception is reality.

On a more serious note though, I sympathize with the moderators who have to read endless comments about the same damn topic. Some you agree with and many you do not. But understand members as well. I would love to comment about a new restaurants at one of my timeshares, about a great II or RCI exchange or even complain about Vistana for increasing some network fees by 5 dollars a year. But none of that is happening, too many things revolve around the bloody Covid and we are stuck for a while.


----------



## Ken555

DeniseM said:


> OK - I'm starting a GoFundMe account to buy Danny a partner, children, hobbies, friends, a pet, a book, exercise equipment, video games, a TV,  music, social media, and a timeshare. If you will contribute a dollar please like this post. Or if you'd like to donate your partner or children, love this post!



I'd contribute a lot more than $1.


----------



## Ken555

DeniseM said:


> Children cost a fortune - for the best results, get the job, partner and video games first.
> 
> Ken has 18 posts on this topic in the last 1.5 days. Very sad; I used to know Ken before he went to the dark side.



My will got beaten down by all the misinformation, quotes out of context, right-wing influenced propaganda talking points, and the underlying belief that it's okay for some people to die if the economy (and schools) got going again. And I do like red lightsabers, so maybe the dark side ain't so bad after all. At least for a time.


----------



## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> My will got beaten down by all the misinformation, quotes out of context, right-wing influenced propaganda talking points, and the underlying belief that it's okay for some people to die if the economy (and schools) got going again. And I do like red lightsabers, so maybe the dark side ain't so bad after all. At least for a time.


Great job Ken, this is the true representation of my position, people should die so that the economy can move on. Propaganda, misinformation, talking points, dark side and all the rest. @Denise, now you see how we get to 32 comments fast and that  personal attacks are the weapon of choice for some people?


----------



## DeniseM

No, I don't see it at all - if you don't want to hear responses from people who don't agree with you, you should quit starting all these threads!

BTW - I'm going to start reverse hijacking - whenever one of these threads gets stupid, I'm going to hijack it!  I bet a lot of Tuggers will help me do it!


----------



## DeniseM

So Ken, tell me - have you always secretly liked Darth Vader better than Luke Skywalker?  Have you ever talked to anyone about this?


----------



## needvaca

How about limiting people to 10 posts per day?Anything more than that is usually garbage or clutter. Almost no one posts more than that, except Ken and Danny.


----------



## jabberwocky

DeniseM said:


> OK - I'm starting a GoFundMe account to buy Danny a partner, children, hobbies, friends, a pet, a book, exercise equipment, video games, a TV,  music, social media, and a timeshare. If you will contribute a dollar please like this post. Or if you'd like to donate your partner or children, love this post!


While we are at it, can we start a GoFundMe account to help Ken build a firewall to keep out all of the “foreigners” like me from TUG?  We need to make sure it is really tall.


----------



## DeniseM

jabberwocky - I had no idea that you are a foreigner! You have no accent at all!


----------



## DeniseM

OK Tuggers - When you see *HAPPY HIJACK* - that is the signal!


----------



## Country Roads

DeniseM said:


> jabberwocky - I had no idea that you are a foreigner! You have no accent at all!


Careful Denise, your post count is climbing.


----------



## jabberwocky

DeniseM said:


> jabberwocky - I had no idea that you are a foreigner! You have no accent at all!


LOL - Yep - everyone usually thinks I’m from Minnesota


----------



## DeniseM

OOOOOOOH - I see what you mean!


----------



## geekette

bbodb1 said:


> I understand where you are coming from BUT what if the pictures being shown had been of a child in the middle of a nasty custody fight where one party did not know where the estranged parent / child had moved to?  That is the sort of thing administration is always reminding staff about - and on that front they are correct.
> While the video helped make the student's point, it might have put another student in danger.  Her commentary (words) should have sufficed..


it was the back of heads.


----------



## DeniseM

Country Roads - That ship has sailed: I have more posts than anyone on TUG!


----------



## jabberwocky

Country Roads said:


> Careful Denise, your post count is climbing.


We don’t want her losing her lead to dioxide45! 

But what was this thread about again?


----------



## geekette

DannyTS said:


> I hope  CDCwould want to know everything about this case.  Kids and teachers were in contact for 4-5 days, 9 of them infected. Where the kids in the same class? Did the infected teachers teach any of those infected students? When did they have symptoms (if any)? How many other students got infected (same class or not). Did their families get infected? How about their friends in their class and their neighborhood? I think we deserve a lot more answers from this incident.


"we" deserve nothing.  If your kid was in that school, you have received the relevant info.  

I don't expect CDC is terribly interested in one of many schools with early outbreaks.  Why this one?  Outbreaks all over the country, this is low numbers.


----------



## Ken555

DeniseM said:


> So Ken, tell me - have you always secretly liked Darth Vader better than Luke Skywalker?  Have you ever talked to anyone about this?



It started a long, long time ago. Around May 2020.

I'm trying to resist, but it looks like so much fun on the dark side. I look at others here who have been fully engulfed by the dark side and see that they have no issues with advocating evil and insidious goals, and now look to them for guidance.


----------



## SueDonJ

bbodb1 said:


> HOWEVER, did she check to make sure any students in her photos were on a do not publish list?  Each school has such a list which is supposed to be checked / verified prior to publishing anything that might be seen by the public for the reasons I mentioned above (and others).  *In this case*, I agree the ends justify the means but the rule about not publishing photos / videos of students does have some very valid reasons for existing.



She acknowledged herself that the prohibition against posting pictures of classmates, teachers, administrators to social media earned her the suspension, and that the suspension was lifted before she registered an official complaint to have it rescinded. It was a calculated decision on her part; "good trouble," she called it, and I agree. My first thought when I saw the pic was that she was probably going to get disciplined for it, but at least it was taken from the back of the crowd instead of the front which would have put faces to all the students who weren't practicing social distancing and wearing masks.



bbodb1 said:


> ... With respect to your point about credentialed experts being vilified, it seems like it wasn't all that long ago when credentialed experts could disagree and, as a result of the disagreement, find ways to further the knowledge in a field.  The problem today is this discourse takes place in view of the media, and the process of reconciling differences of opinion on issues (be they medical, financial, economic, social - anything) has become a siege mentality.  Much of the media has played a significant role in the race to the intellectual bottom of this process, but the experts and the lay public have not helped either.



The problem I see today is less with the media and more with the people who are conveniently omitting from their opinions/discourse that differences of opinions and changes to the scientific responses are, and always have been, a natural progression of the scientific process. Fauci has been vilified *by every single elected/appointed official in the party which installed him in his position because of his expertise* simply because as the pandemic progressed it belied his first response that masks probably wouldn't help all that much, a response based on the science at the time that airborne transmission wasn't occurring. But that's what we all want, isn't it, for the experts to share science/fact-based opinions as the situation evolves, and for the politicians to let the experts do the *$Y*#&*(*& job that they're put in place to do?!?!



bbodb1 said:


> ... Finally, I'll pose this to you - if you (the public) are faced with two opposing points of view by the 'experts', what are you supposed to do?  Who do you believe?  How do you reconcile this?
> If COVID-19 has taught us anything, it is that knowledge acquisition is a process - one that takes time to play out.  And that runs counter to our demand for knowing everything this instant.



If credentialed experts are offering opposing opinions and suggestions, I expect to be able to hear/read their plain-spoken positions without any interference from politicians who ALWAYS have an agenda. Absent that, which is where we are today (and which is how in my opinion many have decided they want this ***show to play out,) scientists will, for the most part, be civil in their discourse with each other. And I will generally err on the side of caution, so if one tells me to mask up and limit social interactions while another tells me to go sixteen-deep at a bar and not worry about it, you'll find me on my deck with a cup of tea, my phone and a good book.


----------



## geekette

...
Finally, I'll pose this to you - if you (the public) are faced with two opposing points of view by the 'experts', what are you supposed to do?  Who do you believe?  How do you reconcile this?
If COVID-19 has taught us anything, it is that knowledge acquisition is a process - one that takes time to play out.  And that runs counter to our demand for knowing everything this instant. 

seek more info.   Like I do with anything.


----------



## bbodb1

jabberwocky said:


> LOL - Yep - everyone usually thinks I’m from Minnesota


_eh?_


----------



## DeniseM

Oh, Ken, you big silly!  But I'd stop wearing the black pointy hood if I were you!


----------



## Ken555

DeniseM said:


> Oh, Ken, you big silly!  But I'd stop wearing the black pointy hood if I were you!
> 
> View attachment 24736



Always two, there are. No more. No less. A Master and an apprentice.


----------



## bogey21

geekette said:


> Finally, I'll pose this to you - if you (the public) are faced with two opposing points of view by the 'experts', what are you supposed to do?  Who do you believe?  *How do you reconcile this?*



In my opinion you can't.  You just make the best decision you can based on your knowledge of the local situation...

George


----------



## SueDonJ

Brett said:


> right, and 'they also say -  if only we lived in a socialist welfare state like Sweden where people have government run healthcare and high taxes and don't wear masks
> Their intentions are clear



Newsflash: we do live in a "socialist welfare state." Our taxes pay for roads; public transportation; medical coverage for our seniors and others with debilitating conditions; housing and food for those who can't afford it themselves; schools and libraries; public defense - locally, statewide, nationally and internationally; the interest on the out-of-control national debt; etc etc etc. If you don't partake of any of that you can certainly feel free to insult the rest of us with your not-so-veiled derision of "welfare," but I'm pretty sure you do so you can save your derision.

As for Sweden, they're among the happiest people on Earth so they must be doing something right. Today, this minute? From where I sit there are far too many unhappy people in this country who could take a lesson from them, instead of choosing to spread their unhappiness as easily as they're spreading the plague.


----------



## cman

DannyTS said:


> You used  the alleged death threat to  make an argument but you and SueDonJ actually score a point  in  the opposite direction. If we live in a highly contentious world, even more reasons for that mother to try to talk first to the administrators of the school rather than be on twitter.  Also, I do not think she has done her daughter a favor in the long term. But does that matter? She got her minute of fame NOW.
> 
> There is public domain and public domain.  A lot of politicians, sometimes actors or musicians  have received deaths threats because there are always people who are nuts and the notoriety makes it easier for them to fixate on you. Dr Fauci was known in some circles but he was just a regular public servant until few months ago (Google trends); John Lennon did not close down half of the country but he got shot, his assassin said that  that he was angered by Lennon's lifestyle and public statements (!?), go figure.
> The Swedish top doctor also  received death threats, this is unfortunately how it works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loved and loathed, Sweden's anti-lockdown architect is unrepentant
> 
> 
> As the architect of Sweden's unorthodox response to the coronavirus pandemic, Anders Tegnell has got used to receiving death threats and being urged to resign.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The doctor who prescribes and studies a certain drug also received death threats, the list is endless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esteemed French Dr. Didier Raoult Testifies Person Behind Death Threats He Received Is Top Doctor Linked to Gilead Pharmaceuticals
> 
> 
> Way back in late March Laura Ingraham reported on the latest study by the French research team led by the renowned epidemiologist Dr. Didier Raoult that was able to repeat his findings from a previous study. This time Dr. Raoult administered hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin to 80 patients and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thegatewaypundit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 24722


Dude, don't take this the wrong way, but you're starting to come off a delusional. The constant references to "Sweden", the fact that you would spend so much time researching to counter a minimal point of another poster, is not normal behavior. My take on you is that you have arrived at some predetermined position, and will stand by it even in the face of actual facts. This Sweden thing you've been on is a perfect example. Sweden is not doing well. Every available metric clearly points that out. Even when provided with factual information, your tactic is to attack the presenters. Delusional people don't know that they're delusional. But my guess is that this is not the first time someone has described you in such terms.


----------



## DeniseM

cman - Would you like to contribute to Danny's GoFundMe Account?  We're going to help him.


----------



## Brett

SueDonJ said:


> Newsflash: we do live in a "socialist welfare state." Our taxes pay for roads; public transportation; medical coverage for our seniors and others with debilitating conditions; housing and food for those who can't afford it themselves; schools and libraries; public defense - locally, statewide, nationally and internationally; the interest on the out-of-control national debt; etc etc etc. If you don't partake of any of that you can certainly feel free to insult the rest of us with your not-so-veiled derision of "welfare," but I'm pretty sure you do so you can save your derision.
> 
> As for Sweden, they're among the happiest people on Earth so they must be doing something right. Today, this minute? From where I sit there are far too many unhappy people in this country who could take a lesson from them, instead of choosing to spread their unhappiness as easily as they're spreading the plague.







DeniseM said:


> OK Tuggers - When you see HAPPY HIJACK - that is the signal!




OK, I'll bite.  ----  definitely against my better judgement 

From the *official Sweden government*  website -









						Work–life balance | sweden.se
					

In Sweden, it's possible to combine career with family life. Gender-equal and family-friendly solutions help facilitate everyday life.



					sweden.se
				




*"*Everyone knows that Swedes pay a lot of taxes*"*  ... *why*?


----------



## Cornell

One of the few school districts in the Chicago area that is offering some form of in-person  school. I post this b/c ...
_*
"Last month, health officials said 73 people had tested positive for COVID-19 as part of a Lake Zurich-area outbreak that led to the cancellation of sports camps at Lake Zurich High School in early July."*_

Lots of school districts in the Chicago area used this ^^^ outbreak as a justification to keep schools closed this fall.  

Yet, the district is offering in person learning and only 28% of the high school students have chosen the fully remote option.









						Most Lake Zurich 95 students have signed up for in-person classes this fall
					

About two-thirds of students in Lake Zurich Unit School District 95 have chosen to spend at least part of their time in classrooms this fall.




					www.dailyherald.com


----------



## MULTIZ321

How widespread is COVID-19 in children? 
A look at the latest data as schools reopen.










						How widespread is COVID-19 in children? A look at the latest data as schools reopen
					

As schools across the country start to reopen, recent data shows that COVID-19 infection is on the rise in children.




					abcnews.go.com
				



.


Richard


----------



## TravelTime

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/schools-colleges-covid-reopen/2020/08/09/44a78044-d826-11ea-930e-d88518c57dcc_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-banner-main_schoolchaos610pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans
		


It’s going to be screen time all the time for kindergartners and graduate students alike. Teachers are threatening strikes. And students are already coming home with covid-19, the disease that has upended American education.

The 2020-2021 school year has dawned and it’s more chaotic than any before.

Plans are changing so fast that students and parents can hardly keep up. Districts that spent all summer planning hybrid systems, in which children would be in school part of the week, ditched them as coronavirus cases surged. Universities changed their teaching models, their start dates and their rules for housing, all with scant notice.......


----------



## TravelTime

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/in-college-towns-and-neighborhoods-permanent-residents-brace-for-students-return/2020/08/09/f4fdfc50-d760-11ea-9c3b-dfc394c03988_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-banner-main_collegevirus337pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans
		


Christy Dollymore is livid.

After a quiet summer spent in the seclusion of her College Park, Md., home, Dollymore is getting more neighbors. They’re students, enrolled at the University of Maryland’s flagship campus half a mile away, and they’re moving into the apartments and group homes that surround the school.

Dollymore, a 61-year-old retired critical care technician, lives on a tree-lined street in the suburbs. It’s not abnormal for her to have college-aged neighbors, but she has a compromised immune system. Her husband nearly died of influenza A, a type of flu, last year, and her 36-year-old daughter is recovering from malignant melanoma, she said.
“We have three highly compromised people in my house,” Dollymore said. “Where am I supposed to go to the grocery store?”

Although most — and in many cases, all — of their classes will be held online, students at District-area universities are still flocking to neighborhoods in and around the city, stoking fears — and questions — of permanent residents who are anxious about young people spreading the novel coronavirus.

“They’re already drinking, maskless, downtown. No one cares,” Dollymore said.........


----------



## TravelTime

I have 2 clients who are in college. One goes to school in the Bay Area and will be living with a bunch of friends in Tahoe to do online school. Another attends school in Boston and will be returning to live near school while he does online classes. He misses his friends and wants to get out of his house again.


----------



## bbodb1

SueDonJ said:


> The problem I see today is less with the media and more with the people who are conveniently omitting from their opinions/discourse that differences of opinions and changes to the scientific responses are, and always have been, a natural progression of the scientific process.



To this point, I would offer that the media plays a very significant role in the polarization process.  If the media were truly neutral in their approach to reporting, people might be more inclined to consume the news (or research) on a subject and think on their own.  Having said that, it has also become hard to trust research when the influences behind some research efforts want a certain observation, outcome or result produced.  The well of information has been poisoned. 



SueDonJ said:


> Fauci has been vilified *by every single elected/appointed official in the party which installed him in his position because of his expertise* simply because as the pandemic progressed it belied his first response that masks probably wouldn't help all that much, a response based on the science at the time that airborne transmission wasn't occurring.



This goes back to my earlier point on how we (the public in general but also government as well) want the information it wants, right now (if not yesterday), and it has to be absolutely spot on factual from the moment it is first uttered. This phenomena did not start recently.  It should also be noted this statement is not entirely correct because "by every single elected/appointed official in the party which installed him in his position because of his expertise" would include the Governor of Arkansas who has only spoken highly of Dr. Fauci. 

Nonetheless, the scientific process has been corrupted by political and corporate influences.  I don't see how that genie can easiily be put back in the bottle.



SueDonJ said:


> But that's what we all want, isn't it, for the experts to share science/fact-based opinions as the situation evolves, and for the politicians to let the experts do the *$Y*#&*(*& job that they're put in place to do?!?!



Yes, assuming the experts and the research process are free from bias.  But that, sadly, is an ideal type it seems. 



SueDonJ said:


> If credentialed experts are offering opposing opinions and suggestions, I expect to be able to hear/read their plain-spoken positions without any interference from politicians who ALWAYS have an agenda.



Agreed.  This is how it should be.  Science should only be limited by safety, ethical, and moral considerations.  It should be free from the influences mentioned above. 



SueDonJ said:


> Absent that, which is where we are today (and which is how in my opinion many have decided they want this ***show to play out,) scientists will, for the most part, be civil in their discourse with each other. And I will generally err on the side of caution, so if one tells me to mask up and limit social interactions while another tells me to go sixteen-deep at a bar and not worry about it, you'll find me on my deck with a cup of tea, my phone and a good book.



As things sit today, I have lost all confidence in politicians to do anything in the public interest _*unless*_ those efforts or decisions align with the wants and needs of the power elites. COVID-19 has (among other things) shined a bright light on the seedy under belly of politics. It isn't pretty.


----------



## DannyTS

cman said:


> Dude, don't take this the wrong way, but you're starting to come off a delusional. The constant references to "Sweden", the fact that you would spend so much time researching to counter a minimal point of another poster, is not normal behavior. My take on you is that you have arrived at some predetermined position, and will stand by it even in the face of actual facts. This Sweden thing you've been on is a perfect example. Sweden is not doing well. Every available metric clearly points that out. Even when provided with factual information, your tactic is to attack the presenters. Delusional people don't know that they're delusional. But my guess is that this is not the first time someone has described you in such terms.


Your message may come across as more coherent if you did not accuse me of attacking others while  viciously attacking me throughout  the exact same comment.  You used the word delusional 3 times, twice in the same sentence, that is very creative, I will have to admit it.

Yes, we do not agree on Sweden. My point is that they were served with a very bad hand but they have been doing  well overall  once you realize the worst part was right at the beginning and a lock down would have not changed much in the number of deaths in the first 2 months. I have presented the data to support it and people can judge for themselves. I think every time you hear the word Sweden your blood pressure goes up. Is it because the information I provided was wrong, as you claim? Or is it because deep inside your mind you just do not want them to do better than others that have taken draconian measures? In a way, my "obsession" with Sweden seems to be matched by and equal force from those that oppose their approach. Is that not obsession as well?

I keep on going back to Sweden not because I am obsessed with their meatballs, their canned reindeer meat or their chief epidemiologist but because we have a live example of what works and what does not work in a system that did not shut down the economy and kept the schools open and still managed to reduce the number of deaths constantly since their peak on April 9th. You are not curious about it. I get that. Does that justify calling names? No, I do not take it the _wrong_ way, I just read what you write. 

Bonus: you seem to like the word delusional quite a bit.


----------



## DannyTS

geekette said:


> it was the back of heads.


She posted a picture and a video. In the video you can see faces






			https://twitter.com/ihateiceman


----------



## cman

DannyTS said:


> Your message may come across as more coherent if you did not accuse me of attacking others while  viciously attacking me throughout  the exact same comment.  You used the word delusional 3 times, twice in the same sentence, that is very creative, I will have to admit it.
> 
> Yes, we do not agree on Sweden. My point is that they were served with a very bad hand but they have been doing  well overall  once you realize the worst part was right at the beginning and a lock down would have not changed much in the number of deaths in the first 2 months. I have presented the data to support it and people can judge for themselves. I think every time you hear the word Sweden your blood pressure goes up. Is it because the information I provided was wrong, as you claim? Or is it because deep inside your mind you just do not want them to do better than others that have taken draconian measures? In a way, my "obsession" with Sweden seems to be matched by and equal force from those that oppose their approach. Is that not obsession as well?
> 
> I keep on going back to Sweden not because I am obsessed with their meatballs, their canned reindeer meat or their chief epidemiologist but because we have a live example of what works and what does not work in a system that did not shut down the economy and kept the schools open and still managed to reduce the number of deaths constantly since their peak on April 9th. You are not curious about it. I get that. Does that justify calling names? No, I do not take it the _wrong_ way, I just read what you write.
> 
> Bonus: you seem to like the word delusional quite a bit.
> 
> View attachment 24765


Dude, this thread has nothing to do with Sweden. Most rational people realize that this is a thread about reopening schools in the USA. It's about the best way we can reopen our schools in OUR country. You and your fellow Canadians have a better grasp of the situation. We don't. I'd advise you to proceed with what's best for YOUR country. Not sure what's best for ours, but we've been through worse. We'll survive, and ensure Canada's security as well.


----------



## cman

DannyTS said:


> She posted a picture and a video. In the video you can see faces
> View attachment 24766
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/ihateiceman


The fact that you actually took the time to hunt this down concerns me. It should concern you also. Normal people don't do things like this. Dude, I'm gonna have to just block you. Something's not right here. This is not normal. My guess is that this is not the first time you've heard this. BLOCK, you're out.


----------



## DannyTS

cman said:


> Dude, this thread has nothing to do with Sweden. Most rational people realize that this is a thread about reopening schools in the USA. It's about the best way we can reopen our schools in OUR country. You and your fellow Canadians have a better grasp of the situation. We don't. I'd advise you to proceed with what's best for YOUR country. Not sure what's best for ours, but we've been through worse. We'll survive, and ensure Canada's security as well.


A welcome  change in tone but the condescension does not go away.

If I am not mistaken sir, we are not voting in any committee here on TUG to open schools or not, our discussion is purely theoretical. It is not that you do not want Canadians to comment on this, you just do not want those that disagree with you.


----------



## DannyTS

cman said:


> The fact that you actually took the time to hunt this down concerns me. It should concern you also. Normal people don't do things like this. Dude, I'm gonna have to just block you. Something's not right here. This is not normal. My guess is that this is not the first time you've heard this. BLOCK, you're out.


You make it sound like I crawled in dark basements through  cold water to get to this info. Have you heard of Google?  About something being normal or not...you just said it twice, I guess this is not the first time or place you have said it... probably those around you know it best.  Thank you for blocking me, I will not miss being called names.


----------



## MULTIZ321

97,000 children test positive for coronavirus in two weeks 









						97,000 children test positive for coronavirus in two weeks
					

At least 338,000 kids have tested positive since the pandemic began, study finds.




					www.axios.com
				



.


Richard


----------



## Brett

MULTIZ321 said:


> 97,000 children test positive for coronavirus in two weeks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 97,000 children test positive for coronavirus in two weeks
> 
> 
> At least 338,000 kids have tested positive since the pandemic began, study finds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.axios.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> Richard



Wall St Journal today
August 10  2020





https://www.wsj.com/articles/latest...carrying-transmitting-coronavirus-11596978001

"research indicates children might be carriers just as much as adults. Even
when experiencing only a mild or moderate case, children under the age of 5 might have anywhere between 10 to 100 times
as much of Covid-19’s genetic material, viral RNA, in their upper respiratory tracts as older
children and adults, according to a study published in July in the journal JAMA Pediatrics."


----------



## DannyTS

MULTIZ321 said:


> 97,000 children test positive for coronavirus in two weeks
> 
> 
> 
> Richard


Thank you for posting it. Here is the link to the study


			https://downloads.aap.org/AAP/PDF/AAP%20and%20CHA%20-%20Children%20and%20COVID-19%20State%20Data%20Report%207.30.20%20FINAL.pdf
		



The percent of children of total cases has risen constantly since the beginning of the chart, it has gone up 4.5 times since April 16th (why is the chart starting there?). My assumption is that the transmission rate in kids did not change much since April and it is still very low, it is just that the kids have taken little to no precautions and they have been exposed a lot more than adults lately.


----------



## DeniseM

Good morning everyone!  It's a beautiful cool morning here in sunny California!

Today's *Happy Hijack*:  Many of us are walking for exercise during the pandemic - *where do you like to walk?* We live on the edge of town in farm country and we are fortunate to have canal banks and ponds where we can  walk for exercise.  As an added bonus, there are lots of ducks and geese for watching:


----------



## Cornell

DeniseM said:


> Good morning everyone!  It's a beautiful cool morning here in sunny California!
> 
> Today's *Happy Hijack*:  Many of us are walking for exercise during the pandemic - *where do you like to walk?* We live on the edge of town in farm country and we are fortunate to have canal banks and ponds where we can  walk for exercise.  As an added bonus, there are lots of ducks and geese for watching:
> 
> View attachment 24778View attachment 24779


I'm not much of a walker (Well, my married name was "Walker" so I used to be one - hahahaha), but I am a fitness fanatic.  I spend lots of time in the gym(s) - I belong to two, which keeps me sane.  

Pretty pics and I love the ducklings.


----------



## TravelTime

To get this thread back on topic.

———————

Remote school is putting kids under toxic stress
Our pediatric patients are suffering. We need a way to open schools safely.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/08/10/remote-school-toxic-stress/?hpid=hp_save-opinions-float-right-4-0_opinion-card-a-right%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans
		


Written by two doctors:
Alice Kuo is professor of child health policy, chief of medicine-pediatrics and director of the UCLA Center of Excellence in Maternal and Child Health.
Casey Nagel is an Internist and preventive and public health physician who is focused on helping people of all ages live their healthiest life.


----------



## Ken555

Let’s agree that:

1. Everyone wants to reopen schools.

2. No one likes Covid.

3. We all expect more preparation from our schools so that students have an acceptable learning experience.

4. We want all students to avoid, and not spread, C19.

For myself, I don’t need to read any additional articles to know that remote learning is less good than in person education for a variety of reasons. I consider it better than no education at all, which may be the alternative for many.

What I am interested in is learning why:

1. We don’t have national education guidance on the proper method to solve these issues. Those I’ve seen have already been proven unsafe.

2. Schools have knowingly opened in an unsafe manner, such as the one in Georgia. Who is responsible?

3. Why parents should trust their schools to safeguard their children health at this time (and indirectly their own, due to community spread concerns).

4. How we can keep schools funded and provide out of the box education opportunities such as organizing and assisting with the education of students in small pods.

5. Why we don’t have creative solutions to the education problem. For instance, I posted info on how New York solved similar issues at the turn of the last century by simply holding classes outside, even in cold weather. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

#5 does not seem realistic. Holding classes in freezing cold and snow? How about in 100+ degree weather like here in the Sacramento region?


----------



## Brett

DeniseM said:


> Good morning everyone!  It's a beautiful cool morning here in sunny California!
> 
> Today's *Happy Hijack*:  Many of us are walking for exercise during the pandemic - *where do you like to walk?* We live on the edge of town in farm country and we are fortunate to have canal banks and ponds where we can  walk for exercise.  As an added bonus, there are lots of ducks and geese for watching:
> 
> View attachment 24778View attachment 24779



I also like to walk

a pair of Mandarin ducks at Sylvan Bird park - North Carolina


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> #5 does not seem realistic. Holding classes in freezing cold and snow? How about in 100+ degree weather like here in the Sacramento region?



This is simply an example of what is possible, and it may not be appropriate in certain regions for obvious reasons. But the picture I saw from New York over 100 years ago were of students with coats and blankets in winter.


----------



## TravelTime

This California school is open, ‘learning as we go.’ Is it a model or a mistake?









						This California school is open, 'learning as we go.' Is it a model or a mistake? — Los Angeles Times
					

Catholic schools in California are seeking waivers to open for in-person learning. In Nevada County, one has gone back to class.




					apple.news


----------



## DeniseM

Brett - Beautiful ducks!  We just have garden variety mallards with a few ecaped domestic ducks thrown in.  Today, there were lots of geese, too. 
Here I am in my mask, just like my avatar!


----------



## Cornell

I'm only sharing this article for interest purposes (as they say "retweets do not equal endorsements"). 
Swiss schools are back in session today for the new school year and this article discusses that they are dealing w/many of the same issues as we are in the US

*Swiss teachers have warned that the new school year will be heavily marked by the coronavirus. The key issues: masks, policing pupils' quarantine and what to do about the educational gap made worse by nationwide school closures earlier this year *










						How can schools best protect pupils during corona times?
					

The key issues: masks, policing pupils' quarantine and what to do about the educational gap made worse by the nationwide lockdown.




					www.swissinfo.ch


----------



## Luanne

Ken555 said:


> This is simply an example of what is possible, and it may not be appropriate in certain regions for obvious reasons. But the picture I saw from New York over 100 years ago were of students with coats and blankets in winter.


There was a segment on MSNBC this morning about how some schools, and school districts, are looking into doing classes outside.  One person's comment was "There is no bad weather, just bad clothing".  I prefer to think of ways things CAN be done rather than just assume they can't.


----------



## Country Roads

Ken555 said:


> This is simply an example of what is possible, and it may not be appropriate in certain regions for obvious reasons. But the picture I saw from New York over 100 years ago were of students with coats and blankets in winter.



100 years ago children were sturdier compared to today. Don't you remember the old, "back in my day" stories?


----------



## Cornell




----------



## Country Roads

DeniseM said:


> Brett - Beautiful ducks!  We just have garden variety mallards with a few ecaped domestic ducks thrown in.  Today, there were lots of geese, too.
> Here I am in my mask, just like my avatar!
> 
> View attachment 24789View attachment 24788



Denise, don't fight it. Come to the dark side.


----------



## Luanne

More info on the schools opening outside, even in some colder areas (and they are planning on being outside year round).

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/educat...ativess-remote-learning-move-classes-n1235809


----------



## Brett

schools were a lot tougher in the old days


----------



## Cornell

Brett said:


> schools were a lot tougher in the old days
> 
> View attachment 24794


and no vaccines!!!!!!!


----------



## DeniseM

Country Roads said:


> Denise, don't fight it. Come to the dark side.



Hey Country Roads, I am THERE!  I'm going to be your new best friend!  Where do you own a timeshare? Do you have a first name besides Country?


----------



## PamMo

DeniseM said:


> Brett - Beautiful ducks!  We just have garden variety mallards with a few ecaped domestic ducks thrown in.  Today, there were lots of geese, too.
> Here I am in my mask, just like my avatar!
> 
> View attachment 24789View attachment 24788


Denise, those canals just don't look natural without some 'gators!


----------



## DeniseM

PamMo said:


> Denise, those canals just don't look natural without some 'gators!



YIKES!  Thankfully we just have birds, fish and turtles!


----------



## TravelTime

It sounds like hijacking threads is allowed now.


----------



## DeniseM

There are no TUG rules against hijacking threads - as long as the topic itself doesn't break the rules - you know, like politics and controversial social issues.


----------



## Brett

I took this picture of a squirrel several days ago at a local park


----------



## TravelTime

More about the dark side 









						The True History of Vampires Is More Gruesome Than Anything You'll Find in Pop Culture — Oprah Daily
					

Our spooky obsession runs centuries deep.




					apple.news


----------



## DeniseM

Interesting article, but I'm talking about this dark side:


----------



## Luanne

DeniseM said:


> Interesting article, but I'm talking about this dark side:
> 
> View attachment 24804


And to remind us, there is good in most of us:

Darth Vader end

Unwilling to let his son die, *Vader* throws the Emperor down a reactor chute to his death, but is mortally wounded by his former master's lightning in the process. The redeemed Anakin Skywalker asks Luke to remove his mask, and admits that there was still good in him after all as he dies peacefully in his son's arms.


----------



## Country Roads

DeniseM said:


> Hey Country Roads, I am THERE!  I'm going to be your new best friend!  Where do you own a timeshare? Do you have a first name besides Country?



Actually four between Las Vegas and Orlando. As for the rest, I would tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.


----------



## Country Roads

TravelTime said:


> More about the dark side
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The True History of Vampires Is More Gruesome Than Anything You'll Find in Pop Culture — Oprah Daily
> 
> 
> Our spooky obsession runs centuries deep.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news



Vampires were so misunderstood.


----------



## DeniseM

Thanks Country! - first name?


----------



## SmithOp

We walk at the beach, seagulls and pelicans. Now when I play golf we have guinea hens and those damn Canadians pooping everywhere, can't get those geese to go home! I'd love to send them to Sweden.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## Cornell

Fairfax public schools wants you to know that they have concerns about parents educating their children when the schools aren't open...

*While FCPS doesn’t and can’t control these private tutoring groups, we do have concerns that they may widen the gap in educational access and equity for all students. Many parents cannot afford private instruction. Many working families can’t provide transportation to and from a tutoring pod, even if they could afford to pay for the service. *





__





						Message for Parents on Tutoring Pods | Fairfax County Public Schools
					






					www.fcps.edu


----------



## Brett

a little bunny in my back yard


----------



## cman

Cornell said:


> Fairfax public schools wants you to know that they have concerns about parents educating their children when the schools aren't open...
> 
> *While FCPS doesn’t and can’t control these private tutoring groups, we do have concerns that they may widen the gap in educational access and equity for all students. Many parents cannot afford private instruction. Many working families can’t provide transportation to and from a tutoring pod, even if they could afford to pay for the service. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Message for Parents on Tutoring Pods | Fairfax County Public Schools
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fcps.edu


Private tutoring groups and educational "pods" will widen the gap in educational access and equity. But the bottom line is that we as parents, have to utilize our resources for what's best for "our" children. I'm going to do what's best for my kids. You're going to do the same. That's what parents are supposed to do. Period.


----------



## Cornell

cman said:


> Private tutoring groups and educational "pods" will widen the gap in educational access and equity. But the bottom line is that we as parents, have to utilize our resources for what's best for "our" children. I'm going to do what's best for my kids. You're going to do the same. That's what parents are supposed to do. Period.


I agree, obviously, as I’ve indicated my plans for my daughter in TUG.

But I find it “interesting “ that these schools won’t open yet they now finger wag at parents who secure alternatives.


----------



## GregT

I am being considered to be the "parent" representative on the Dr. Phil show -- he is bringing in a panel of teachers/doctors/administrators and they need someone to represent parents who think schools should be open.  The interviewer talked to me for about 10 minutes and thought I would be a suitable candidate and asked me to send in a video summarizing my views.  She asked me to be "passionate" because I try to be a balanced and practical person.   I don't think I will be picked because I just couldn't bring myself to be "passionate".   I don't know who Dr. Phil is but my kids tell me that it typically becomes a sh-t show between ranting adults.  We will see....but I will let TUG know if they do...

Best,

Greg


----------



## Ken555

GregT said:


> I don't know who Dr. Phil is but my kids tell me that it typically becomes a sh-t show between ranting adults.



Run away! Fast! Save yourself!


----------



## Chrispee

Inequality and wealth distribution gap is a big reason why the USA will do worse than many other countries when it comes to school reopening. Having said that, I would definitely be looking at that option for my child if I lived in the States.


----------



## needvaca

GregT said:


> I am being considered to be the "parent" representative on the Dr. Phil show -- he is bringing in a panel of teachers/doctors/administrators and they need someone to represent parents who think schools should be open.  The interviewer talked to me for about 10 minutes and thought I would be a suitable candidate and asked me to send in a video summarizing my views.  She asked me to be "passionate" because I try to be a balanced and practical person.   I don't think I will be picked because I just couldn't bring myself to be "passionate".   I don't know who Dr. Phil is but my kids tell me that it typically becomes a sh-t show between ranting adults.  We will see....but I will let TUG know if they do...
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


Please please go on the show to be a voice of reason, logic and science!


----------



## bbodb1

DeniseM said:


> There are no TUG rules against hijacking threads - as long as the topic itself doesn't break the rules - you know, like politics and controversial social issues.


Except for moderators who think the rules don't apply to them...


----------



## Cornell

Montgomery County Public Schools:  Can't offer school, yet their buildings will be open AND staffed for "distance learning camps" for $1275 / month.









						Bar-T Distance Learning Hub - Bar-T
					

Kids Club is a before and after school programs for children in Montgomery and Frederick County where they choose which clubs they would most enjoy.




					www.bar-t.com


----------



## missyrcrews

@Cornell...what a mess.  Makes me glad I live here.  My parents talked to me about moving home when I was out there this summer.  (south of St. Louis about 90 miles.)  No way.  No how.


----------



## Glynda

TravelTime said:


> More about the dark side
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The True History of Vampires Is More Gruesome Than Anything You'll Find in Pop Culture — Oprah Daily
> 
> 
> Our spooky obsession runs centuries deep.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apple.news



I have been listening to a podcast, Phoebe Reads a Mystery. Phoebe Judge is her name.  Criminal, is another of her podcasts. Right now she's reading Dracula. There is a new chapter every day and I'm  reminded of when I was a child and my mother and I would rush to the only radio in the house to listen to a soap opera or some other show.


----------



## Brett

bbodb1 said:


> Except for moderators who think the rules don't apply to them...



the moderators make the rules 
(and can change them  )


----------



## bogey21

Cornell said:


> *While FCPS doesn’t and can’t control these private tutoring groups, we do have concerns that they may widen the gap in educational access and equity for all students. Many parents cannot afford private instruction. Many working families can’t provide transportation to and from a tutoring pod, even if they could afford to pay for the service. *



This is nuts.  It is like "if we can't handle it, your kids need to suffer too"...

George


----------



## Cornell

@bogey21 Yes it is nuts.  We have truly entered an era of the surreal when it comes to public schools.


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> Fairfax public schools wants you to know that they have concerns about parents educating their children when the schools aren't open...
> 
> *While FCPS doesn’t and can’t control these private tutoring groups, we do have concerns that they may widen the gap in educational access and equity for all students. Many parents cannot afford private instruction. Many working families can’t provide transportation to and from a tutoring pod, even if they could afford to pay for the service. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Message for Parents on Tutoring Pods | Fairfax County Public Schools
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fcps.edu



Maybe the public schools should use the learning pod model to provide instruction so all students get an equal education.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> Maybe the public schools should use the learning pod model to provide instruction so all students get an equal education.



Exactly. Why aren’t we seeing this type of proposal? Because the money is tied to school attendance.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555

In regards to higher ed...this is an interesting read.









						Keep Campus Closed - What Higher Ed is Too Afraid to Say | Inside Higher Ed
					

Anonymous higher ed pros share their dissatisfaction with having to reopen




					insidehighered.com
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Cornell

Ken555 said:


> Exactly. Why aren’t we seeing this type of proposal? Because the money is tied to school attendance.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


There were creative models  / approaches in school districts in the Chicago suburbs.  Bottom line - teachers unions in northern IL will not accept any option other than remote only.


----------



## Theiggy

Ken555 said:


> Exactly. Why aren’t we seeing this type of proposal? Because the money is tied to school attendance.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Lack of space and adequate staff. And of course the funds to pay for those. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Theiggy

Not a scientific study obviously (Scary Mommy), but this is the truth as I see it. 










						A Teacher’s Perspective: The Truth About What Your Kid Is Walking Into This Fall
					

Here's the reality that superintendents aren’t bragging about on social media, and parents really need to hear it as soon as possible: you’re being lied to.




					www.scarymommy.com
				





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS

Brett said:


> the moderators make the rules
> (and can change them  )


I thought that moderators were supposed to enforce the rules, not to break them. If they want to change them, fine, they can act according to the new rules in the future but if that is not the case and they break current rules, what is the point of having rules in the first place?


----------



## Ken555

Georgia School District Quarantines 800 People Amid Covid Outbreak
In all, 38 students and 12 staff members on campuses have tested positive for the virus









						Georgia School District Quarantines 800 People Amid Covid Outbreak — The Wall Street Journal
					

At least 800 students and staffers in a Georgia school district have been quarantined after coming into contact with dozens of others who tested positive for Covid-19, just one week into the new school year.




					apple.news
				




[Inadvertently, this link is behind a paywall, but it's all over the news, so don't sweat the small stuff - DeniseM]

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DeniseM

(3 posts redacted)

Now boys, we're all friends here on the dark side, so let's not bicker.  

*COUNTRY* - what was your first name again? My name is Denise!  I like country music, and I grew up in the country - on a farm, actually. We have a lot in common! I also listen to the online Country Roads music channel on my laptop.

----------------------------

I just got back from a lovely walk - it's cooler and breezy this morning in sunny California.  For the last week, there has been an abandoned bicycle on the walking path.  It's not new, but it's not junk either.  I wonder if I should report it to the police on the non-emergency line - maybe it's stolen.  Maybe some kid needs it to ride to school. What would you do?


----------



## Cornell

DeniseM said:


> I just got back from a lovely walk - it's cooler and breezy this morning in sunny California.  For the last week, there has been an abandoned bicycle on the walking path.  It's not new, but it's not junk either.  I wonder if I should report it to the police on the non-emergency line - maybe it's stolen.  Maybe some kid needs it to ride to school. What would you do?
> 
> View attachment 24829


I doubt a kid needs it to ride to school because schools aren't open in California, are they?


----------



## DeniseM

To make a long story short: If your county is under 8% positive testing rate for 14 days, your schools can open.  If it's over 8%, you have to do distance learning until it's under 8% for 14 days. Over 30 counties are doing distance learning.


----------



## Country Roads

Bond, James Bond.    And we both like country music.

Oh yea Ken, [redacted], that link seems to also take one to WSJ as well. Hey wait, I know, just give us your password and log info and we all can read it.


----------



## Cornell

Another day of resistance! August 15th!  









						DRAWING THE LINE
					

Teachers are drawing the line for what education can be. Join them.




					www.wearedrawingtheline.org


----------



## bogey21

If I were a Junior or Senior in college, I'd take the year off.  If I was a Freshman or Sophomore and needed a couple of core courses, I'd find a juco where I could take them remotely just to make some progress...

George


----------



## slip

DeniseM said:


> To make a long story short: If your county is under 8% positive testing rate for 14 days, your schools can open.  If it's over 8%, you have to do distance learning until it's under 8% for 14 days. Over 30 counties are doing distance learning.



Just for perspective, there are 58 counties in California.


----------



## Country Roads

bogey21 said:


> If I were a Junior or Senior in college, I'd take the year off.  If I was a Freshman or Sophomore and needed a couple of core courses, I'd find a juco where I could take them remotely just to make some progress...
> 
> George


That's very good advise. I understand that some schools still offer "gap" years.


----------



## Ken555

Country Roads said:


> Bond, James Bond.  And we both like country music.
> 
> Oh yea Ken, [redacted] that link seems to also take one to WSJ as well. Hey wait, I know, just give us your password and log info and we all can read it.



To quote another in this thread, I call it like I see it. It is what it is.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Cornell

bogey21 said:


> If I were a Junior or Senior in college, I'd take the year off.  If I was a Freshman or Sophomore and needed a couple of core courses, I'd find a juco where I could take them remotely just to make some progress...
> 
> George


You are not alone in your thinking.  This is why many think institutions of higher learning are going to have some financial distress after this year as so many Freshman / Sophomores are saying "no thanks" to what is being offered and using their junior colleges.  That will be my daughter's plan (or a gap year) if things don't get back on track by next fall.


----------



## DeniseM

Country Roads said:


> Bond, James Bond.    And we both like country music.



Great - glad to meet you James!  Since  we're country folks, can I call you Jimmy?


----------



## Country Roads

Ken555 said:


> To quote another in this thread, I call it like I see it. It is what it is.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Water under the bridge Ken and besides, I've been called worse by better. So, what about that log in and password info so we can all read that article you noted?


----------



## Country Roads

DeniseM said:


> Great - glad to meet you James!  Since  we're country folks, can I call you Jimmy?


Works for me.


----------



## Cornell

Country Roads said:


> Water under the bridge Ken and besides, I've been called worse by better. So, what about that log in and password info so we can all read that article you noted?


@Country Roads  I'm a WSJ subscriber.  Tell you what -- I will send you the article directly.  Look out for it!


----------



## DeniseM

Yeah!  Big Jimmy Jim-Jim is my new best friend here on the dark side!


----------



## DeniseM

I have to go do a little bit of work, but I will be back to check on you kids, so be good while I'm gone, and if you can't be good, click the REPORT post button!


----------



## Ken555

Country Roads said:


> Water under the bridge Ken and besides, I've been called worse by better. So, what about that log in and password info so we can all read that article you noted?



"by better"? LOL

You have difficulty using Google? As Denise said, this story is all over.


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> You are not alone in your thinking.  This is why many think institutions of higher learning are going to have some financial distress after this year as so many Freshman / Sophomores are saying "no thanks" to what is being offered and using their junior colleges.  That will be my daughter's plan (or a gap year) if things don't get back on track by next fall.



I heard yesterday that 20% of Harvard's freshman class is deferring for a year. I expect we'll hear soon that this is happening all over. I know friends who work at a college all reporting this informally. It will be a hard year or two for all schools in America.


----------



## SteelerGal

Cornell said:


> Montgomery County Public Schools:  Can't offer school, yet their buildings will be open AND staffed for "distance learning camps" for $1275 / month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bar-T Distance Learning Hub - Bar-T
> 
> 
> Kids Club is a before and after school programs for children in Montgomery and Frederick County where they choose which clubs they would most enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bar-t.com


This is common in our County.  Fortunately we can do weekly instead of monthly.
It burns me that only the wealthier SD are offering DL Camps.  I know many parents are looking to switch to private or homeschool.  I am hoping our County can possibly get a waiver or the State will loosen the standards for SN.


----------



## elaine

son's state college is doing hybrid. His biz classes are all online. College announced hybrid structure vs. all online for these reasons: 1. in person for science labs, performing arts and classes that really need in person, 2. to include international students, 3. if they closed the dorms, it would devastate the university financially for many years. They also released their "fall options" study with different options and revenue losses with closure of dorms.
I appreciated the candor and transparency. Son is going back to dorm for social contact with others his age.


----------



## Cornell

Class of '21 in Illinois are having to drive to different states to take the ACT or SAT b/c they can't take them here. 
It never ends. 

*"When it has come to getting a standardized test score during the onslaught of COVID-19, fate has been cruel to Illinois’ rising high school seniors. They weren’t able to take the SAT at their schools in April, and many ACT sittings were canceled over the spring and summer after test sites, mostly schools, closed their doors."*









						COVID-19 shutdowns create mad dash for ACT, SAT spots as college application season looms
					

Illinois’ rising high school seniors are in a mad dash for ACT and SAT spots as COVID-19 closes test sites and college applications loom.




					www.chicagotribune.com


----------



## Luanne

Cornell said:


> Class of '21 in Illinois are having to drive to different states to take the ACT or SAT b/c they can't take them here.
> It never ends.
> 
> *"When it has come to getting a standardized test score during the onslaught of COVID-19, fate has been cruel to Illinois’ rising high school seniors. They weren’t able to take the SAT at their schools in April, and many ACT sittings were canceled over the spring and summer after test sites, mostly schools, closed their doors."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 shutdowns create mad dash for ACT, SAT spots as college application season looms
> 
> 
> Illinois’ rising high school seniors are in a mad dash for ACT and SAT spots as COVID-19 closes test sites and college applications loom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chicagotribune.com


Are these students checking to see if the schools they want to apply to have waived the ACT/SAT scores.


----------



## Cornell

Luanne said:


> Are these students checking to see if the schools they want to apply to have waived the ACT/SAT scores.


Many have but it's not a great solution for many kids. Often time, merit aid is maximized by test scores. Additionally, some kids are really great test takers and want to have those test scores as part of their application. 

It's just another example where regionally, certain kids are now at a disadvantage.


----------



## travelpager

Ken555 said:


> "by better"? LOL
> 
> You have difficulty using Google? As Denise said, this story is all over.



Brought you this and also this. Or, are such postings now _verboten_?  If so, somebody let me know and I will remove.


----------



## TravelTime

I have a client who is creating a learning pod/private school for her kids and some other kids. They are forming an LLC for the school. There will be 10 kids in the school. They are hiring 2 teachers and an athletic coach for the 10 children. At least one of the teachers is coming from the local school district. They said they cherry picked the best teachers and athletic director for the kids.

Families with resources are doing everything they can to get real school for their children. It is a shame the public schools are not stepping up for the majority of families who can’t afford to pay for private teachers. 

Also, I have heard that enrollments are up at traditional private schools.


----------



## MULTIZ321

Florida Elementary School Student's Mother Shot and Killed During Zoom Class as Teacher Watches 









						Florida Elementary School Student's Mother Shot, Killed on Zoom Class
					

The 10-year-old girl's computer was hit by a bullet as she began her first day of school




					people.com
				





Richard


----------



## fillde

MULTIZ321 said:


> Florida Elementary School Student's Mother Shot and Killed During Zoom Class as Teacher Watches
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida Elementary School Student's Mother Shot, Killed on Zoom Class
> 
> 
> The 10-year-old girl's computer was hit by a bullet as she began her first day of school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> people.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Richard


 Death penalty in Florida.


----------



## Brett

MULTIZ321 said:


> Florida Elementary School Student's Mother Shot and Killed During Zoom Class as Teacher Watches
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida Elementary School Student's Mother Shot, Killed on Zoom Class
> 
> 
> The 10-year-old girl's computer was hit by a bullet as she began her first day of school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> people.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Richard





fillde said:


> Death penalty in Florida.



apparently the pandemic virtual remote learning can reduce mass school shootings  
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/corona...out-school-shooting-since-2002-united-states/


----------



## Cornell

Since so many teachers will be conducting classes from their homes or empty classrooms via Zoom, perhaps they, too, should also wear masks while doing so.

*“Also, wear your mask, even if you are home, to participate in a virtual meeting that involves being seen — such as on Zoom or another video-conferencing platform — by non-DNR staff,” Preston Cole said, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. “Set the safety example which shows you as a DNR public service employee care about the safety and health of others.”*

Read more here: https://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/national/article244861827.html#storylink=cpy



			https://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/national/article244861827.html


----------



## Country Roads

Cornell said:


> Since so many teachers will be conducting classes from their homes or empty classrooms via Zoom, perhaps they, too, should also wear masks while doing so.
> 
> *“Also, wear your mask, even if you are home, to participate in a virtual meeting that involves being seen — such as on Zoom or another video-conferencing platform — by non-DNR staff,” Preston Cole said, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. “Set the safety example which shows you as a DNR public service employee care about the safety and health of others.”*
> 
> Read more here: https://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/national/article244861827.html#storylink=cpy
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/national/article244861827.html



“Also, *wear your mask, even if you are home*, to participate in a virtual meeting that involves being seen..."

"Evers’ executive order said that face coverings are required to be worn whenever a person is in an enclosed space — *other than a private residence*."

"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention does not advise wearing a face mask while social distancing in your home except under certain conditions."

Okay, make up your mind Evers.


----------



## Country Roads

*No internet service creates panic for parents in rural Stafford County before start of virtual school year*

Dowdy said that time is running out for her kids and about 14 other families who reside on Flippo Road in the Griffis-Widewater District. She said the students don’t have a reliable internet source and lack cell service as well.

Dowdy explained that Comcast quoted her a *price tag of $39,000* for the internet provider to run cable internet just to their home. She said it would *cost nearly $90,000* to reach the homes of the other school-going kids who live toward the end of the same road.

Let me know if need further information regarding the story.


Oh well, there's a few that's bound to be left behind.


----------



## Cornell

@Country Roads Be careful -- your previous comment mentioned the name of a politician -- might went to edit that asap 

But in all seriousness, I bring up this mask-in-zoom-calls story because I am honestly waiting for this kind of thing to happen in our virtual schools. Nothing makes sense anymore.

And I have a friend that is a principal with kids in rural areas.   They had to use a school bus as a "remote access point" for getting wifi via a hotspot last spring.  Gee- that's super conducive to learning.


----------



## CPNY

The shut down was to not overload the health system not eradicate the virus. But somehow that shifted (SHOCKING). Some kids were disadvantaged before school closing, felt the effects even worse when they did. We must open the schools for them. Time to stop quarantines and get back to life. If not, we are doomed.


----------



## Country Roads

Cornell said:


> @Country Roads Be careful -- your previous comment mentioned the name of a politician -- might went to edit that asap
> 
> But in all seriousness, I bring up this mask-in-zoom-calls story because I am honestly waiting for this kind of thing to happen in our virtual schools. Nothing makes sense anymore.
> 
> And I have a friend that is a principal with kids in rural areas.   They had to use a school bus as a "remote access point" for getting wifi via a hotspot last spring.  Gee- that's super conducive to learning.



Thanks Cornell, nice catch.


----------



## bluehende

Cornell said:


> @Country Roads Be careful -- your previous comment mentioned the name of a politician -- might went to edit that asap
> 
> But in all seriousness, I bring up this mask-in-zoom-calls story because I am honestly waiting for this kind of thing to happen in our virtual schools. Nothing makes sense anymore.
> 
> And I have a friend that is a principal with kids in rural areas.   They had to use a school bus as a "remote access point" for getting wifi via a hotspot last spring.  Gee- that's super conducive to learning.


It is called modeling.  When dealing with young children you model the behavior you wish to enforce.  My wife the day care teacher does this on a daily basis.  It makes a lot of sense to model mask wearing in today's society.  While you can argue how important this is you can not say it does not make sense.


----------



## Cornell

bluehende said:


> It is called modeling.  When dealing with young children you model the behavior you wish to enforce.  My wife the day care teacher does this on a daily basis.  It makes a lot of sense to model mask wearing in today's society.  While you can argue how important this is you can not say it does not make sense.


Actually, I *can* argue that it does not make sense to wear a mask while sitting in a private home on a Zoom call.


----------



## elaine

Wearing a mask while making a short speech/talk to thousands online makes sense for modeling. Wearing one to teach for hours does not. As a teacher, one could start off the Zoom session talking about wearing a mask and then saying, "as we're all in our homes/empty classroom for her, we can take off our masks to learn now" would likely reinforce when to (and not) wear masks.


----------



## DannyTS

Modeling is very important but it also mean that a model should not be doing something that is borderline ridiculous because  it may have the opposite effect. Eleine's way makes sense to me, but anything more than that would be laughed at.


----------



## bluehende

Cornell said:


> Actually, I *can* argue that it does not make sense to wear a mask while sitting in a private home on a Zoom call.


Argue with the NEA


			NEA - Modeling Positive Behavior in the Classroom
		


Teachers are role models for their students all day, every day, so I take my actions and behavior very seriously. Modeling positive behavior— and discussing it with my students— helps me create a positive environment where students feel safe and cared for and where they can develop behavioral skills they will use the rest of their lives.

Or are you actually going to argue that teachers are not role models and do not need to show students positive behaviors.


----------



## Cornell

@bluehende I think it’s pretty obvious that any type of meeting, or teaching, that occurs through a platform like zoom is less effective than if that event was held in person. Add a mask to the speaker and the efficacy goes down even more. I don’t care what some government agency tells me about modeling, remote teaching is challenging enough without the teacher wearing a mask.

*** I'm going to edit my comments.  You didn't cite a gov't agency.  Rather you cited the NEA -- labor union & professional interest group.


----------



## Cornell

CPNY said:


> The shut down was to not overload the health system not eradicate the virus. But somehow that shifted (SHOCKING). Some kids were disadvantaged before school closing, felt the effects even worse when they did. We must open the schools for them. Time to stop quarantines and get back to life. If not, we are doomed.


On that point -- this is the latest talking point I see.  I live in Cook County.  Even with a vaccine, this will never happen.  Schools will never reopen by this metric.


----------



## Country Roads

bluehende said:


> Argue with the NEA
> 
> 
> NEA - Modeling Positive Behavior in the Classroom
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers are role models for their students all day, every day, so I take my actions and behavior very seriously. Modeling positive behavior— and discussing it with my students— helps me create a positive environment where students feel safe and cared for and where they can develop behavioral skills they will use the rest of their lives.
> 
> Or are you actually going to argue that teachers are not role models and do not need to show students positive behaviors.



Let's be very clear. Teachers can be positive role models and as we have seen, they can also be negative as well. They should and must show students positive behaviors in dealing with the world we live in however, I will offer this one caveat. As for their behavior in the home as a parent, that's my concern. Let me do the modeling.


----------



## CPNY

Cornell said:


> On that point -- this is the latest talking point I see.  I live in Cook County.  Even with a vaccine, this will never happen.  Schools will never reopen by this metric.
> 
> View attachment 24850


So we were lied to in the beginning? I love when our “leaders” lie. The virus has been here. The increase in cases was expected, not sure why people are shocked.


----------



## Cornell

Interest in homeschooling has 'exploded' amid pandemic
					

As parents nationwide prepare to help their children with more distance learning, a small but quickly growing number are deciding to take matters entirely into their own hands and begin homeschooling




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## bluehende

Cornell said:


> You didn't cite a gov't agency.  Rather you cited the NEA -- labor union & professional interest group.
> [/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Glad to see you will follow  gov't agencies like the state and local school boards and will support them in all decisions. :)


----------



## Cornell

@bluehende Why would I support local school boards in all decisions?


----------



## bluehende

Cornell said:


> @bluehende Why would I support local school boards in all decisions?


We will end this sidebar and get back to your article.

from your article

Evers’ executive order said that face coverings are required to be worn whenever a person is in an enclosed space — other than a private residence.


DNR spokeswoman Megan Sheridan spoke with McClatchy News and said that employees wearing masks while video conferencing with external partners sets a good example during the pandemic.

Nowhere does it say you are required to wear a mask for online teaching.  You could read this to say you have to when you are not at your home but would this not meet your state guidelines for mask wearing if the instruction is coming from a classroom or other enclosed space.  And since it again specifically says external partners it would probably not even mean then.  A little clarification for this would be easy to obtain but the order does not say that it is required.  It does specifically say they are not required at home.


----------



## Cornell

@bluehende Read my post from #990.  Never said masks are required for teaching.  Just pointing out that I wouldn't be surprised that this starts happening somewhere given what's going on with DNR in Wisco.


----------



## bluehende

Cornell said:


> @bluehende Read my post from #990.  Never said masks are required for teaching.  Just pointing out that I wouldn't be surprised that this starts happening somewhere given what's going on with DNR in Wisco.


So you are protesting a move that has not happened?   Don't we have enough problems to solve without adding problems that do not exist.


----------



## TravelTime

Isn't okay to hypothesize on TUG? Or is that against the rules now? If so, we need to shutdown many threads and posts.


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> Isn't okay to hypothesize on TUG? Or is that against the rules now? If so, we need to shutdown many threads and posts.


At least we should not deride people for decisions they did not make.


----------



## Cornell

bluehende said:


> At least we should not deride people for decisions they did not make.


I'm giving a forewarning that this is a legitimate possibility for what comes next in the bizarre world of remote school.


----------



## Theiggy

Dr. Sanjay Gupta: Why I am not sending my kids back to school | CNN
					

One of the questions I am getting more than any other: Am I going to send my children back to school? As a father of three teen and preteen girls, this has been a constant discussion in our household, and it hasn't been easy. My girls want to go back to school, and they are placing enormous...




					www.cnn.com
				





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cornell

Theiggy said:


> Dr. Sanjay Gupta: Why I am not sending my kids back to school | CNN
> 
> 
> One of the questions I am getting more than any other: Am I going to send my children back to school? As a father of three teen and preteen girls, this has been a constant discussion in our household, and it hasn't been easy. My girls want to go back to school, and they are placing enormous...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LOL -- I'm sure he has all the money that he needs to get the best education for his kids without sending them to "school", unlike the rest of us 99%ers.


----------



## travelpager

Today I heard an interview that led me to check my perspective on the subject of this thread. A NYC clinical physician recounted how she decided to return her young children to public school (hybrid model) and I listened. (https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/08/12/doctor-kids-school-pandemic ). Heard nothing to signal "heavy-duty effort required to hear past trope and tone," but that alone wasn't what held my attention.  Something she said stopped me in my tracks: New York's test positivity rate is below 1%.  One percent? For real? In the continental U.S.?!?  Did I know this? (I did not.) W O W. If I didn't know better, I'd wonder if such a magical place also has rainbows every day and free all-you-can-eat chocolate. 

All at once, I realized anew that we are some of us living in very different circumstances. Might not reach the same conclusion as the doctor, but my perspective would be very different. Instead, the same debate unfolds here amid local news (17% ... but I hear we's free)  as well as the latest from Georgia, Florida, Alabama (sigh) and regions of FootballLand ... and "progress" there is nothing if not newsworthy. I offer no comment here on whether certain decisions about school operation are better addressed by any particular level of the public sector (based on balance of information); what once would qualify as a legitimate question on an exam in high school Government or even a test in middle school Texas History, is now almost too political for polite conversation. Just ... this is How We Live Now? 

Congrats, NY, on reaping the fruits of sound policy, hard-wishing, leadership and/or pixie dust [take your pick - I won't engage on this point or, for that matter, whether the earth is round] that got your state's population where it is today. Moving forward, I resolve to remember that Everywhere Ain't Here.


----------



## Ken555

Country Roads said:


> *No internet service creates panic for parents in rural Stafford County before start of virtual school year*
> 
> Dowdy said that time is running out for her kids and about 14 other families who reside on Flippo Road in the Griffis-Widewater District. She said the students don’t have a reliable internet source and lack cell service as well.
> 
> Dowdy explained that Comcast quoted her a *price tag of $39,000* for the internet provider to run cable internet just to their home. She said it would *cost nearly $90,000* to reach the homes of the other school-going kids who live toward the end of the same road.
> 
> Let me know if need further information regarding the story.
> 
> 
> Oh well, there's a few that's bound to be left behind.



Got a link to that story?

It's too bad that we haven't prioritized internet access for all, but it's been an issue for a long time. None of us should be surprised that there are areas in the US without proper coverage. You should ask yourself why this has been allowed to happen.









						Internet/Broadband Fact Sheet
					

The internet represents a fundamental shift in how Americans connect with one another, gather information and conduct their day-to-day lives. Explore the patterns, trends and statistics of internet and home broadband adoption in the United States.




					www.pewresearch.org
				




FWIW, I know personally of one instance in the last ~5 years where the homeowner paid ~$80,000 to have the local cable company pull cable to his home so he could have faster Internet. He was able to justify (and afford) it, but it's rare. I mention this to validate the prices quoted above are not unreasonable, depending on the exact distance and difficulty of the specific installation(s).

Of course, I'd try even slow DSL or satellite coverage before paying lots for internet. ~$39-90k is really not the only options available. Satellite internet is not outrageously priced (though more than cable), but it may not be affordable to many. In the near future it's likely to get cheaper as more and more satellites are being deployed specifically for Internet coverage.


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> LOL -- I'm sure he has all the money that he needs to get the best education for his kids without sending them to "school", unlike the rest of us 99%ers.



The wealthy do not care whether school is online or not because they are creating options for their kids like learning pods, hiring teachers, hiring tutors, going to private school, even creating their own schools. So it costs them an extra $20K-$40K per child. That is not a lot for the top 1%.


----------



## SueDonJ

Cornell said:


> LOL -- I'm sure he has all the money that he needs to get the best education for his kids without sending them to "school", unlike the rest of us 99%ers.



I'm seeing this comment all over social media and all I can think is, whose fault is it that we collectively haven't risen up and DEMANDED that our elected officials in DC - every single one of them - come together and find the damned resources needed to ensure that every child in this country has what s/he needs to safely continue his/her education during the pandemic? Whether the regional statistics call for continued virtual learning or allow for schools to be re-opened, whether parents choose to teach their own children or join any of the "pods" that are springing up everywhere, whether we're each individually going to let the situation influence us at the voting booth or not. Why are we so complacent in the face of an utter failure of our children at every level?! Why are *we* allowing *them* to act in ways that guarantee this despicable divide *among our children* between the haves and have-nots?!

Yes, I know, the haves v. have-nots is an ages-old reality that will never go away. But this is a one-off situation and we owe our children so much more. Yet even here on TUG, where we generally don't engage the way we have been throughout this tragedy, it's obvious that we're so entrenched in finding any means possible to agree with those of a certain ideology as opposed to demanding that those of every ideology do what we sent them to DC to do. It's so discouraging, so sad, so dangerous. I hate this new normal.


----------



## MULTIZ321

School Reopenings Are Not Going Well.










						School Reopenings Are Not Going Well
					

Many districts that have resumed in-person classes are already seeing outbreaks.




					www.thecut.com
				



.


Richard


----------



## TravelTime

I agree with you @SueDonJ. The government was able to find $1200 per person and gave it to many people who did not need it. They did not look at need but just deposited money in bank accounts. Then they gave forgivable loans to lots of businesses who did not need it. What have they given to the public schools to educate America's children during the pandemic?


----------



## Cornell

@SueDonJ Great comments.  I have found the apathy on this matter in my local area to be astonishing.  Lots of people whining on social media but very few actually attending their school board meetings and letting their voice be heard.  I don't get it -- I really don't.  Lots of shoulder shrugging of acceptance.

When it comes to $$, yes, it's obvious that there are inequities when it comes to school and certain areas could benefit from more money during this.  But I don't think money is the necessary fix for many of the problems here.  The issue that I personally have (and I think many of my like-minded parents in IL) is that my definition of "safety" is very different than others.  It's an impasse that we can't get past and the teachers unions drive the bus here.

I also feel that the topic of school vouchers needs to be revisited.  I feel strongly that my public school isn't providing what they should, so give me my money back and let me use it how I see fit for my child .  I honestly think that some free market competition could be a good thing here.  In IL , private schools are opening.  So, as a parent, if I feel comfortable with their plan, let me have a voucher to send my kid to school there vs suffering through virtual learning that many feel is sub-standard.  Or -- I can use that money to educate my child in my home w/tutors or a pod if I feel more comfortable with that.


----------



## Brett

TravelTime said:


> I agree with you @SueDonJ. The government was able to find $1200 per person and gave it to many people who did not need it. They did not look at need but just deposited money in bank accounts. Then they gave forgivable loans to lots of businesses who did not need it. What have they given to the public schools to educate America's children during the pandemic?



seems similar to your argument in a previous thread that the federal government should fund national health insurance 
(government can "create' money !)


----------



## TravelTime

Brett said:


> seems similar to your argument in a previous thread that the federal government should fund national health insurance
> (government can "create' money !)



I said previously that the government seems to find money / make money when it is politically advantageous. For years, the leaders have said we have no money and the deficit is getting too large. Then suddenly this year, there is a massive relief program and it was very inefficiently distributed.  Look at all the Tuggers who got relief checks who did not have any losses. Look at all the big companies that got forgivable loans meant for small businesses on the brink of bankruptcy. I have never been a big government type of person so it really bothers me to see money going to people who do not need it. It is just inefficient and wasteful. So if the government can just print money, then why not print some money for healthcare and education?


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> @SueDonJ Great comments.  I have found the apathy on this matter in my local area to be astonishing.  Lots of people whining on social media but very few actually attending their school board meetings and letting their voice be heard.  I don't get it -- I really don't.  Lots of shoulder shrugging of acceptance.
> 
> When it comes to $$, yes, it's obvious that there are inequities when it comes to school and certain areas could benefit from more money during this.  But I don't think money is the necessary fix for many of the problems here.  The issue that I personally have (and I think many of my like-minded parents in IL) is that my definition of "safety" is very different than others.  It's an impasse that we can't get past and the teachers unions drive the bus here.
> 
> I also feel that the topic of school vouchers needs to be revisited.  I feel strongly that my public school isn't providing what they should, so give me my money back and let me use it how I see fit for my child .  I honestly think that some free market competition could be a good thing here.  In IL , private schools are opening.  So, as a parent, if I feel comfortable with their plan, let me have a voucher to send my kid to school there vs suffering through virtual learning that many feel is sub-standard.  Or -- I can use that money to educate my child in my home w/tutors or a pod if I feel more comfortable with that.



I do not support school vouchers because then you would be taking taxpayer money to fund private schools (most private school are not that great either) or home schooling (which may or may not be done well). If someone wants to send their child to a private school or home school them, then I think they should pay for it. I do not want my taxes being used to subsidize private companies.


----------



## grupp

TravelTime said:


> I do not want my taxes being used to subsidize private companies.


Hate to break it to you, but they already do.


----------



## SteelerGal

@Cornell CA has the 14day policy.  Our County was doing well until summer and now we have enclaves that ignore any medical advice.  So because of this, all of the County must suffer.  Our only option is the elementary waiver or to lower our positivity rate to the 8%.


----------



## Cornell

AB 5 causing confusion for tutors, parents
					

Assembly Bill 5 (AB 5) may pose a new threat in plans for at-home learning this fall.




					www.10news.com


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> AB 5 causing confusion for tutors, parents
> 
> 
> Assembly Bill 5 (AB 5) may pose a new threat in plans for at-home learning this fall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.10news.com



I guess it depends. Hiring a tutor that is officially self employed or employed by a company, who is working for other families and only works for you for a few hours a week may not cause a problem. The IRS criteria is pretty clear on what constitutes an employee vs an IC. However, I could see if the family is hiring a full time tutor or teacher. That would be like hiring a full time nanny. Then they should probably be an employee. I think many families have gotten in trouble for hiring full time nannies and not paying them properly or paying taxes for them. I am in an industry where many of my competitors are hiring ICs when they should not be. They are misclassifying employees. Tutors were allowed pre-Covid so the only difference I could see now is circumstances when a family hires a tutor for more hours than the government agencies would deem appropriate for a tutor to still be classified as an IC.


----------



## travelpager

grupp said:


> Hate to break it to you, but they already do.



I don't have a problem with this across the board. For example, I don't have problem with government subsidizing R&D for vaccines. Much depends on the objective, who/how many benefit, scope of losses, etc.


----------



## TravelTime

travelpager said:


> I don't have a problem with this across the board. For example, I don't have problem with government subsidizing R&D for vaccines. Much depends on the objective, who/how many benefit, scope of losses, etc.



I have read that companies underfund R&D so it is necessary for the government to step in for this. I do not mind the government paying for or subsidizing things for the common good. However, we are supposed to be paying for public schools, not private schools. I prefer using my taxes for public schools but the government needs to step up and improve the public school system.


----------



## bogey21

TravelTime said:


> The government needs to step up and improve the public school system.



Which Government, Federal, State or Local...

George


----------



## TravelTime

bogey21 said:


> Which Government, Federal, State or Local...
> 
> George



All of them. They all play a part in education is some way.


----------



## rapmarks

My grandsons just went in for registration and picture day. They start in person soon


----------



## bogey21

TravelTime said:


> All of them. They all play a part in education is some way.


Maybe that's part of the problem.  Too many cooks...

George


----------



## Cornell

rapmarks said:


> My grandsons just went in for registration and picture day. They start in person soon


Another bad thing about social media....My kid's peers are now seeing pics of their friends in other areas / states with back to school pics on social media and it's making the situation even worse (in terms of their attitude towards this).


----------



## TravelTime

bogey21 said:


> Maybe that's part of the problem.  Too many cooks...
> 
> George



Good point. We need one clear leader.


----------



## bbodb1

bogey21 said:


> Maybe that's part of the problem.  Too many cooks...
> 
> George


Too many entities to answer to...


----------



## travelpager

TravelTime said:


> I have read that companies underfund R&D so it is necessary for the government to step in for this. I do not mind the government paying for or subsidizing things for the common good. However, we are supposed to be paying for public schools, not private schools. I prefer using my taxes for public schools but the government needs to step up and improve the public school system.



(I agreed with your post, TravelTime)


----------



## rapmarks

Cornell said:


> Another bad thing about social media....My kid's peers are now seeing pics of their friends in other areas / states with back to school pics on social media and it's making the situation even worse (in terms of their attitude towards this).


They are young, kindergarten, third and fifth grade. Don’t know what high school is doing


----------



## DeniseM

Multiple  posts from the dark side deleted.


----------



## mdurette

TravelTime said:


> Also, I have heard that enrollments are up at traditional private schools.



I had a google Q&A with my DD private school last night (k-8) and they noted that they have restricted admission for their upcoming year due to Covid and trying to exceed requirements.   Example:  the "farmhouse' which hold PreK and K can handle 24 kids....they held enrollment this year at 16.

I must say as a parent of child there I was impressed hearing this as they easily could have gone for money (tuition) over safety and they didn't.


----------



## jehb2

Cornell said:


> Another bad thing about social media....My kid's peers are now seeing pics of their friends in other areas / states with back to school pics on social media and it's making the situation even worse (in terms of their attitude towards this).



At the end of the school year my daughter wanted to get together with friends and then this happened not too far from us.  She understands.









						Hundreds of teens at 'pong fest' party exposed to coronavirus, officials say | CNN
					

About 300 teens were exposed to Covid-19 at a "pong fest" party in Lakeway, Texas, on June 20, local officials say.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## TravelTime

Why Parents, With ‘No Good Choice’ This School Year, Are Blaming One Another (Published 2020)
					

Every choice on what to do about schooling amid a pandemic is potentially risky or unfair. Even if the problem is systemic, the angst is personal.




					www.nytimes.com
				




It’s the newest front in America’s parenting wars.

Parents, forced to figure out how to care for and educate their children in a pandemic, are being judged and criticized on message boards and in backyard meet-ups and virtual P.T.A. meetings. If parents send their children to schools that reopen, are they endangering them and their teachers? If they keep them home, are they pulling support from schools and depriving their children? If they keep working while schools are closed, are they neglecting their children in a time of need? If they hire someone to help with remote school, are they widening achievement gaps and contributing to inequality?.....

....In some places, schools have disavowed tutoring pods because they say they contribute to inequity....


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> Why Parents, With ‘No Good Choice’ This School Year, Are Blaming One Another (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> Every choice on what to do about schooling amid a pandemic is potentially risky or unfair. Even if the problem is systemic, the angst is personal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It’s the newest front in America’s parenting wars.
> 
> Parents, forced to figure out how to care for and educate their children in a pandemic, are being judged and criticized on message boards and in backyard meet-ups and virtual P.T.A. meetings. If parents send their children to schools that reopen, are they endangering them and their teachers? If they keep them home, are they pulling support from schools and depriving their children? If they keep working while schools are closed, are they neglecting their children in a time of need? If they hire someone to help with remote school, are they widening achievement gaps and contributing to inequality?.....
> 
> ....In some places, schools have disavowed tutoring pods because they say they contribute to inequity....


I attended yet another school board meeting tonight.  Incredibly divisive.  Everyone mad at each other.  It's not good.  Massive community divides.

My gut is telling me , too, that school will not be open in Illinois during '20-'21 at all.


----------



## Cornell

Another school district shaming parents for unenrolling children and finding alternatives to "virtual learning".  

This same district also uses similar talking points we are hearing in Illinois -- over time , students will be re-introduced into the school starting w/the most vulnerable.  Our board has been asked multiple times as to which metrics will be used to determine when students can return & they can never answer the question.  

*"For every student who unenrolls, the district loses approximately $10,600."*





__





						Board of Education Statement on ‘Learning Pods’ and Their Impact on the Community | Denver Public Schools
					






					www.dpsk12.org


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> I attended yet another school board meeting tonight.  Incredibly divisive.  Everyone mad at each other.  It's not good.  Massive community divides.
> 
> My gut is telling me , too, that school will not be open in Illinois during '20-'21 at all.



I think you are right. I can’t see schools opening until the virus disappears. I do not see that happening until at least late 2021.


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> I think you are right. I can’t see schools opening until the virus disappears. I do not see that happening until at least late 2021.


How will it ever "disappear"?


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> How will it ever "disappear"?



At some point, we will reach herd immunity or a vaccine will be available. Also with the new research on T cells, they are finding that many people already have some level of immunity so reaching herd immunity may happen with or without a vaccine. I am optimistic about the long run but I do not think we will have a solution in 2021 yet.


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> Another school district shaming parents for unenrolling children and finding alternatives to "virtual learning".
> 
> This same district also uses similar talking points we are hearing in Illinois -- over time , students will be re-introduced into the school starting w/the most vulnerable.  Our board has been asked multiple times as to which metrics will be used to determine when students can return & they can never answer the question.
> 
> *"For every student who unenrolls, the district loses approximately $10,600."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Board of Education Statement on ‘Learning Pods’ and Their Impact on the Community | Denver Public Schools
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dpsk12.org



I do not have kids but this makes me angry.


----------



## geoand

TravelTime said:


> Why Parents, With ‘No Good Choice’ This School Year, Are Blaming One Another (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> Every choice on what to do about schooling amid a pandemic is potentially risky or unfair. Even if the problem is systemic, the angst is personal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It’s the newest front in America’s parenting wars.
> 
> Parents, forced to figure out how to care for and educate their children in a pandemic, are being judged and criticized on message boards and in backyard meet-ups and virtual P.T.A. meetings. If parents send their children to schools that reopen, are they endangering them and their teachers? If they keep them home, are they pulling support from schools and depriving their children? If they keep working while schools are closed, are they neglecting their children in a time of need? If they hire someone to help with remote school, are they widening achievement gaps and contributing to inequality?.....
> 
> ....In some places, schools have disavowed tutoring pods because they say they contribute to inequity....


Parents dilemma. Darned if you do, darned if you don’t. I think you really got it right!


----------



## TravelTime

Families Priced Out of ‘Learning Pods’ Seek Alternatives (Published 2020)
					

Should public school systems provide teachers for small-group instruction?




					www.nytimes.com
				




.........Whatever one calls them — learning pods, pandemic pods or microschools — the hiring of teachers to supplement or even replace the virtual instruction offered by public schools has become an obsession among many parents of means. Practically overnight, a virtual cottage industry of companies and consultants has emerged to help families organize pods and pair them with instructors, many of whom are marketing themselves on Facebook pages and neighborhood listservs.

But the cost — often from $30 an hour per child to $100 or more — has put them out of reach for most families, generating concerns that the trend could make public education even more segregated and unequal.

“Hiring a tutor is expensive, even if it’s divvied up between a couple of families,” said Charese Paulson, 40, of Wilmington, Del., who lost her job as an accounts payable clerk during the pandemic. “Upper middle-class families can afford that, but most inner-city, lower-income families can’t afford an extra $200 to $300 a week. You’re talking anywhere between $800 and $1,200 a month — that’s some people’s rent.”........

.......Debates over nascent pods — some of which will be taught by parents who don’t need to work full time, instead of paid teachers or tutors — have consumed Facebook parents’ groups and online forums. They have created rifts among friends, sparked accusations of “opportunity hoarding” by affluent whites, and compelled some parents to ponder whether and how to include lower-income children in their pods......

.......Is it inequitable? A hundred thousand percent,” said Melissa Cohen, a pharmaceutical sales representative in Los Angeles who hired an experienced tutor to oversee distance learning for her two children, with nanny duties thrown in, at a salary of $600 a week plus benefits. “But here’s the thing: What am I supposed to do?”.......

......More useful, they say, would be if school districts or city governments created their own version of learning pods, especially for at-risk students or children of essential workers......


----------



## bogey21

TravelTime said:


> But the cost — often from $30 an hour per child to $100 or more — has put them out of reach for most families, generating concerns that the trend could make public education even more segregated and unequal.



But should the children those who have the money, whether they earned it, inherited it or whatever, be denied in the name of equality...

George


----------



## TravelTime

bogey21 said:


> But should the children those who have the money, whether they earned it, inherited it or whatever, be denied in the name of equality...
> 
> George



No of course not. I think we can admit there is inequality in our educational system while still not denying anyone. I would do the same thing if I had kids. I would set them up in learning pods to make sure they did not fall behind in their education. Frankly, I get mad when people shame wealthy parents for doing whatever they can to educate their kids. That is ridiculous IMO. I think the public schools should set up learning pods themselves. We are paying taxes for the public schools and they are not doing their job right now.


----------



## bluehende

bogey21 said:


> But should the children those who have the money, whether they earned it, inherited it or whatever, be denied in the name of equality...
> 
> George


No one has said that.  Helping people who have been denied opportunity for generations is not a zero sum game.  Helping someone does not mean some one has to be hurt.


----------



## Country Roads

needvaca said:


> Hey “country roads”, are you sure you’re not a troll?
> You joined a few months ago to post 162 times only on societal issues here. Not one post on timeshares. Do you even own one?  Or you just trying to stir the pot



Here's a hint, perhaps you can ask Denise. I probably own more timeshares than you. Not that it's any of your business I believe, unless we're now required to affirm our ownerships. Tell you what, if you have any issues whatsoever with any of my posts, report them. You do know about the infamous "ignore" option, don't you? If not, I'll be more than happy to help you with that. I am impressed that you're infatuated enough that you're tracking and counting my posts and the content of each.

We must do this again.


----------



## needvaca

Country Roads said:


> Here's a hint, perhaps you can ask Denise. I probably own more timeshares than you. Not that it's any of your business I believe, unless we're now required to affirm our ownerships. Tell you what, if you have any issues whatsoever with any of my posts, report them. You do know about the infamous "ignore" option, don't you? If not, I'll be more than happy to help you with that. I am impressed that you're infatuated enough that you're tracking and counting my posts and the content of each.
> 
> We must do this again.


You’re far too intriguing to ignore
And posts and status are listed with just a click on your username. Easy 
I get it now, you created a new user so you can share your real feelings.


----------



## Country Roads

needvaca said:


> You’re far too intriguing to ignore
> I get it now, you created a new user so you can share your real feelings.


Intriguing


----------



## Cornell

_*"How long they can hold the line on at-home learning is unclear. Even if coronavirus cases remain high, parents' tolerance for managing their children's education while trying to work from home may wane again. Will unions risk losing public support if they continue to advocate for virtual education?"*_









						Trump says open schools. Teachers say safety first. As cases rise, unions may win.
					

Unions are battling Trump, Betsy DeVos and GOP leaders on how schools reopen, leaving little time to negotiate how to improve online learning.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## cman

Interesting NYT interactive article on school reopening.








						Opinion | Should Schools in Your County Be Open? (Published 2020)
					

Enter your location to find out.



					www.nytimes.com


----------



## needvaca

Cornell said:


> _*"How long they can hold the line on at-home learning is unclear. Even if coronavirus cases remain high, parents' tolerance for managing their children's education while trying to work from home may wane again. Will unions risk losing public support if they continue to advocate for virtual education?"*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump says open schools. Teachers say safety first. As cases rise, unions may win.
> 
> 
> Unions are battling Trump, Betsy DeVos and GOP leaders on how schools reopen, leaving little time to negotiate how to improve online learning.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com


I agree this is an area where teachers unions have had too much power, by forcing schools to remain closed. But on the other hand, they are instrumental in making schools to get the PPE and other equipment they need to SAFELY reopen schools. I learned at my District Board meetings that our District/superintendent did almost nothing until late July to prepare classrooms and the school with new safety measures UNTIL the teachers union wrote a letter and brought the issue to the community’s attention. 
Unfortunately irresponsible Georgia has shown exactly how much COVID spreads in schools without masks and distance. So now the rest of the country is scared. I wish a responsible state would show how to do it the right way


----------



## Cornell

@needvaca My take from our board meeting last night is that every agency (IDPH, ISBE, Cook County Public Health) has their nose in this and it's a convenient excuse for our school boards to blame them vs. figuring out how to open.


----------



## cman

Country Roads said:


> We could debate the contents forever with well over 400 pages, including narrative.


Or we could get back on topic and discuss reopening schools.


----------



## needvaca

Cornell said:


> @needvaca My take from our board meeting last night is that every agency (IDPH, ISBE, Cook County Public Health) has their nose in this and it's a convenient excuse for our school boards to blame them vs. figuring out how to open.


Absolutely right. All excuses and no solutions!  I’m disgusted. 
I emailed several members of our Board days ago to offer help wherever possible. I said I’m an expert at logistics, planning, scheduling and problem solving  No response from them


----------



## Country Roads

cman said:


> Or we could get back on topic and discuss reopening schools.



Now if you take a look back at post# 1,068 you'll see we agree.


----------



## Cornell

needvaca said:


> Absolutely right. All excuses and no solutions!  I’m disgusted.
> I emailed several members of our Board days ago to offer help wherever possible. I said I’m an expert at logistics, planning, scheduling and problem solving  No response from them


Funny you bring this up.  Our district last night are now claims that some agency is requiring that cleaning crews are now being required to wear N95 masks (even when there is no positive C19 or suspected case in the school) and they can't get masks.  Really?  Some parent stood up and said "I'll buy the district the masks!  I work for a janitorial supply company".


----------



## Luanne

cman said:


> Interesting NYT interactive article on school reopening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion | Should Schools in Your County Be Open? (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> Enter your location to find out.
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


Gee I posted that awhile ago and my post was pulled for "political content".  However there were two articles I posted.  Maybe it was the other one that was objectionable. Glad you re-posted this one.


----------



## needvaca

Cornell said:


> Funny you bring this up.  Our district last night are now claims that some agency is requiring that cleaning crews are now being required to wear N95 masks (even when there is no positive C19 or suspected case in the school) and they can't get masks.  Really?  Some parent stood up and said "I'll buy the district the masks!  I work for a janitorial supply company".


Exactly!  I’m willing to write a check for $1000 to each of my kid’s teachers for any PPE, safety items they want. All my parent friends are willing to do the same. I will go into the school to help move, prepare, declutter, anything.
One excuse after another!  Our education system is so completely broken


----------



## needvaca

Country Roads said:


> Now if you take a look back at post# 1,068 you'll see we agree.


We are. Try to keep up;-)


----------



## Cornell

And now this ad is popping up in my social media....

Parents here in the Chicago area can send their kids to camp in Wisconsin to enjoy being a kid, while doing their remote learning since schools are shut down


----------



## Ken555

Dr. Sanjay Gupta: Why I am not sending my kids back to school









						Dr. Sanjay Gupta: Why I am not sending my kids back to school | CNN
					

One of the questions I am getting more than any other: Am I going to send my children back to school? As a father of three teen and preteen girls, this has been a constant discussion in our household, and it hasn't been easy. My girls want to go back to school, and they are placing enormous...




					www.cnn.com
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DeniseM

Hey Boys and Girls - I just deleted a whole bunch of post about racism.  Guess what: racism is a contentious social issue and any further posts on this subject will immediately shut down this thread. *There were a lot of posts to delete, and if I missed any, it was not intentional.  Don't lose your cool - just send me a warm and friendly message with a link to the post.


> *Avoid posting about politics, religion, or contentious social issues*
> Unless directly related to timesharing, such discussions are prohibited in these forums, including TUG Lounge. We've been down that road before, it was ugly, and we are not going there again.


----------



## Luanne

Ken555 said:


> Dr. Sanjay Gupta: Why I am not sending my kids back to school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Sanjay Gupta: Why I am not sending my kids back to school | CNN
> 
> 
> One of the questions I am getting more than any other: Am I going to send my children back to school? As a father of three teen and preteen girls, this has been a constant discussion in our household, and it hasn't been easy. My girls want to go back to school, and they are placing enormous...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I thought I had posted this article awhile ago (couldn't find it) and got a rather snarky reply.


----------



## Ken555

Luanne said:


> I thought I had posted this article awhile ago (couldn't find it) and got a rather snarky reply.



I don't recall, though anything is possible these days. This article was updated today. The links included are also quite interesting, including the part about why early indications were that children were not as adversely impacted by C19 as adults (which no longer is accepted, I believe).


----------



## needvaca

Ken555 said:


> Dr. Sanjay Gupta: Why I am not sending my kids back to school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Sanjay Gupta: Why I am not sending my kids back to school | CNN
> 
> 
> One of the questions I am getting more than any other: Am I going to send my children back to school? As a father of three teen and preteen girls, this has been a constant discussion in our household, and it hasn't been easy. My girls want to go back to school, and they are placing enormous...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I respect and follow Dr Gupta. He gives good advice. And I respect and understand his reasoning not to send his girls back to school. The biggest factors are:
- he lives in Georgia, where School Covid rates are soaring due wholly to NO Masks, distance, precautions.  Georgia is a horrible model. 
- his girls are older- look like high school, and remote learning may work for them. Gupta admits that younger elementary students need in person school


----------



## Luanne

needvaca said:


> I respect and follow Dr Gupta. He gives good advice. And I respect and understand his reasoning not to send his girls back to school. The biggest factors are:
> - he lives in Georgia, where School Covid rates are soaring due wholly to NO Masks, distance, precautions.  Georgia is a horrible model.
> - his girls are older- look like high school, and remote learning may work for them. *Gupta admits that younger elementary students need in person school
> *



I don't think anyone has ever debated that point.  In truth ALL students benefit from in person school.


----------



## Ken555

Surge in Covid cases among children fuels fears over US school reopenings

Experts challenge ‘myth’ that kids are not at risk as new study adds to worrying reports from schools and camps









						Surge in Covid cases among children fuels fears over US school reopenings — Guardian US
					

Experts challenge ‘myth’ that kids are not at risk as new study adds to worrying reports from schools and camps




					apple.news
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## bogey21

Cornell said:


> @needvaca My take from our board meeting last night is that every agency (IDPH, ISBE, Cook County Public Health) has their nose in this and it's a convenient excuse for our school boards to blame them vs. figuring out how to open.



Compare to how things were handled at the small Christian School my Daughter's 3 kids attend.  Parents, teachers and administration sat down together and decided how to proceed.  Unless something has changed the decision was teachers and kids in the classroom...

George


----------



## Luanne

bogey21 said:


> Compare to how things were handled at the small Christian School my Daughter's 3 kids attend.  Parents, teachers and administration sat down together and decided how to proceed.  Unless something has changed the decision was teachers and kids in the classroom...
> 
> George


With masks and social distancing?


----------



## SteelerGal

Our SD applied for an elementary waiver since our County is allowing for schools, private/public/religious, to apply.  Then today the Gov announced that SD can bring back special needs children who cannot access curriculum online.  I don’t know if my 2 boys class will be chosen however this is a huge win for SN children.


----------



## Cornell

SteelerGal said:


> Our SD applied for an elementary waiver since our County is allowing for schools, private/public/religious, to apply.  Then today the Gov announced that SD can bring back special needs children who cannot access curriculum online.  I don’t know if my 2 boys class will be chosen however this is a huge win for SN children.


Good . Really good. 

I found out at our last SB meeting that we have 200 homeless kids in our district.  My heart aches even more for these kids with the school closures.


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> Good . Really good.
> 
> I found out at our last SB meeting that we have 200 homeless kids in our district.  My heart aches even more for these kids with the school closures.



Wow, that is a lot for one school district. Very sad.


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> Wow, that is a lot for one school district. Very sad.


We have a huge district, not that it makes it any better.


----------



## DannyTS

How to interpret this?












						Infographic: Rate of COVID Infection in U.S. Children Rising
					

This chart shows the number of COVID-19 cases per 100,000 children and percentage of total cases between April 16 and Dec. 31.




					www.statista.com


----------



## bogey21

Luanne said:


> With masks and social distancing?


I don't know and don't want to assume...

George


----------



## jehb2

21 Things That Are Apparently Supposed To Keep Kids And Teachers Safe In School
					

Not sure how to feel about this.




					www.buzzfeed.com


----------



## Brett

https://www.wcax.com/2020/08/14/many-schools-turning-to-tents/


----------



## TravelTime

Brett said:


> View attachment 24914
> 
> https://www.wcax.com/2020/08/14/many-schools-turning-to-tents/



Good, the schools are finally getting creative. It’s 111 out here where I live in Northern Cal. I hope they have fans too.


----------



## jehb2

My brother asked me if this is what my kids school lunchroom looked like.  I told him the Virtual School cafeteria lady is protesting for better working conditions and until her demands are met she will be serving virtual food.


----------



## Cornell

Working Parents Are Hitting Their Coronavirus Breaking Point—and Paying for It
					

As the coronavirus pandemic drags on, more parents are in the market for child care. That means less money to spend, invest and save.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## MULTIZ321

More than 130 Manatee kids found with 
coronavirus in past two weeks. School starts 
Monday



			https://www.bradenton.com/news/coronavirus/article244983125.html
		

.


Richard


----------



## DannyTS

What if the sky does not fall when the schools open? That would be a horror scenario for the teachers' union. 
What are they going to  say  then?


----------



## TravelTime

DannyTS said:


> What if the sky does not fall when the schools open? That would be a horror scenario for the teachers' union.
> What are they going to  say  then?



It seems that very few schools are re-opening in person. I wonder what percentage of US schools are reopening in person. Do you know the stats?


----------



## DannyTS

TravelTime said:


> It seems that very few schools are re-opening in person. I wonder what percentage of US schools are reopening in person. Do you know the stats?


I do not know but probably the non-urban schools have a better chance of reopening.

In the more dense areas it may be more challenging but I am also wondering how easy is to create a learning pod in urban areas. Some people live in smaller apartments so even if they can afford to pay for a private teacher (a big if), it would still be more difficult to social distance.


----------



## SteelerGal

TravelTime said:


> It seems that very few schools are re-opening in person. I wonder what percentage of US schools are reopening in person. Do you know the stats?


You will have to separate the public from the private.  I have a friend in Iowa and they are reopening live because they are a rural County.  NY is.  Arz was pushed back.  Some Florida SD are fighting the state.  
In our County, we are the only SD who has applied for the waiver. Close 50 private/independent/religious schools have applied as well. In CA, LA, San Bern, Ventura and Riverside counties are not allowing schools to apply for the waiver. So some States aren’t even giving an option to at least reopen hybrid.


----------



## TravelTime

SteelerGal said:


> You will have to separate the public from the private.  I have a friend in Iowa and they are reopening live because they are a rural County.  NY is.  Arz was pushed back.  Some Florida SD are fighting the state.
> In our County, we are the only SD who has applied for the waiver. Close 50 private/independent/religious schools have applied as well. In CA, LA, San Bern, Ventura and Riverside counties are not allowing schools to apply for the waiver. So some States aren’t even giving an option to at least reopen hybrid.



I have not heard of any public schools going live in California.


----------



## Cornell

DannyTS said:


> What if the sky does not fall when the schools open? That would be a horror scenario for the teachers' union.
> What are they going to  say  then?


And @DannyTS  -- I still have yet to hear a legitimate argument why it's safe for YMCAs, camp organizations, etc to offer "virtual learning camps" in "closed" schools , supervised by staff members that are not teachers -- yet we can't actually open school to be, you know, school.


----------



## SteelerGal

TravelTime said:


> I have not heard of any public schools going live in California.


Our SD just requested a waiver so we will find out end of month.  I believe the others in our area will find out during the same time.


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> And @DannyTS  -- I still have yet to hear a legitimate argument why it's safe for YMCAs, camp organizations, etc to offer "virtual learning camps" in "closed" schools , supervised by staff members that are not teachers -- yet we can't actually open school to be, you know, school.



I haven't read much about these offerings, but what I have suggests that they are creating small pods of students that won't mix with others. It sounds very similar to the private pods some are creating, and doesn't appear to be operated like a regular school would be. Do you know otherwise? Your posts indicates that you believe these are run just like a school on school property, so if that's the case please post a link or two to them so we can all read it from the source. I'm very curious if your area is implementing this differently.


----------



## Luanne

And let's cue up the "teachers should be glad they have jobs".

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...Z7qCEyNrVzSjqSyxRnkLk7ynjVUdVbkxakHUGDN3dmrfU


----------



## TravelTime

Luanne said:


> And let's cue up the "teachers should be glad they have jobs".
> 
> https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...Z7qCEyNrVzSjqSyxRnkLk7ynjVUdVbkxakHUGDN3dmrfU



This part is concerning:
“Due to these insufficient staffing levels, schools will not be able to re-open on Monday as planned. *This means that all classes, including virtual learning, will be canceled.* At this time, we do not know the duration of these staff absences, and cannot yet confirm when in-person instruction may resume,” he said.


----------



## rapmarks

Massachusetts grandson, going on hybrid program. He is third grade.
Wisconsin grandchildren’s school district, leaving up to principal at each school. My boys attend a k thru 5 school, I guess about 30 to 35 at each grade level.  Two classes at each grade k thru 3, 4 and 5 have one class each.
for picture day the counselor was at gym door. He was masked and had every child wash hands, which he demonstrated the right way.
I imagine that some students have opted for online learning, there are two other elementary schools in district and parents were polled. So I would guess small class sizes.  

what is interesting is this school has a very high rate of families making very little money, I believe over 50%.   They are also a high achieving school, really using title 1 funds to get students up to grade level. The assessed valuation of the town of 2800 people is 2.8 billion , which seems like a lot of wealth to me.
I taught high school, and I have to say this school impresses me in the devotion of the teachers and the way they work together. I hope they can make this work. 
My grandsons really need to be in the classroom,  even my Massachusetts grandson who is in third grade now, but could probably do the math and reading of fifth grade


----------



## Cornell

Luanne said:


> And let's cue up the "teachers should be glad they have jobs".
> 
> https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...Z7qCEyNrVzSjqSyxRnkLk7ynjVUdVbkxakHUGDN3dmrfU


The kindergarten teacher referenced in this (Kelley Fisher) is a union leader who is proposing a nationwide "sick out".


----------



## Luanne

Cornell said:


> The kindergarten teacher referenced in this (Kelley Fisher) is a union leader who is proposing a nationwide "sick out".


If the local school districts or state education departments won't step up maybe the unions need to.


----------



## Cornell

Luanne said:


> If the local school districts or state education departments won't step up maybe the unions need to.


They already are - the teachers unions are completely the block to opening schools in IL.


----------



## Cornell

bluehende said:


> So you are protesting a move that has not happened?   Don't we have enough problems to solve without adding problems that do not exist.


So ... it’s happening ! Local school district here requiring teachers to wear masks while teaching remotely from empty classrooms .

Editing to add... it’s an IDPH regulation.


----------



## bogey21

Luanne said:


> With masks and social distancing?


I checked with my Daughter whose 3 kids are in the Grade 1-8 group.  I don't know how they handle Grades 9-12.  For Grades 1-8 he answer is yes and no.  Kids have been back in school for a week.  Masks required while on campus except (1) in the classroom; (2) when eating; and (3) during outdoor playtime in Grades 1 through 5.  Kids in Grades  1-5 do everything together and do not interface with other kids.  In Grades 6 through 8 masks are required in the classrooms of two specific teachers who are older and considered at risk.  Masks are also required in Choir and in the Lunch Room except when eating.  All kids have to option to wear masks in the classroom if they (or their parents) wish.  Sounds confusing but my Daughter tells me everyone knows the rules and it works well.  But remember this is a small Christian School where parents, teachers and administration sat down together and decided how to handle things...

George


----------



## DannyTS

Luanne said:


> And let's cue up the "teachers should be glad they have jobs".
> 
> https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...Z7qCEyNrVzSjqSyxRnkLk7ynjVUdVbkxakHUGDN3dmrfU


From the article you posted:

“It was great to see J.O. Combs school district came together and used their collective power,” Kelley Fisher, a Phoenix kindergarten teacher who has led protests, told Reuters. *“I’d love to see a nationwide sick out.”*

This is all one needs to know about this. If there was one person thinking this was not political, there should be none now.


----------



## Luanne

bogey21 said:


> I checked with my Daughter whose 3 kids are in the Grade 1-8 group.  I don't know how they handle Grades 9-12.  For Grades 1-8 he answer is yes and no.  Kids have been back in school for a week.  Masks required while on campus except (1) in the classroom; (2) when eating; and (3) during outdoor playtime in Grades 1 through 5.  Kids in Grades  1-5 do everything together and do not interface with other kids.  In Grades 6 through 8 masks are required in the classrooms of two specific teachers who are older and considered at risk.  Masks are also required in Choir and in the Lunch Room except when eating.  All kids have to option to wear masks in the classroom if they (or their parents) wish.  Sounds confusing but my Daughter tells me everyone knows the rules and it works well.  But remember this is a small Christian School where parents, teachers and administration sat down together and decided how to handle things...
> 
> George


I'll be interested to hear how it goes.

It sounds like they really aren't requiring masks on campus with all of those exceptions.


----------



## bbodb1

Cornell said:


> They already are - the teachers unions are completely the block to opening schools in IL.



I had mentioned our teacher unions in Arkansas previously and in comparison, they are among some of the weaker unions around the country given their low member numbers but as we near the start of school, they are trying to encourage teachers to not show up when school starts next Monday.  How effective they will or will not be remains to be seen.   









						Little Rock Education Association chief urges virtual teaching only
					

The president of the Little Rock Education Association on Friday called for teachers in the state’s capital city and throughout the state to teach only virtually starting Aug. 24, and refuse to teach students in person until covid-19 disease subsides significantly.




					www.arkansasonline.com


----------



## bbodb1

And on another front, some local schools are starting to announce the number of students who are opting for virtual education.  The 1st numbers published seem to be running around 20% of the students opting for virtual only education and for most districts, this choice cannot be changed until either the end of the 1st 9 weeks or the 1st semester.


----------



## DannyTS

bbodb1 said:


> And on another front, some local schools are starting to announce the number of students who are opting for virtual education.  *The 1st numbers published seem to be running around 20% of the students opting for virtual only education* and for most districts, this choice cannot be changed until either the end of the 1st 9 weeks or the 1st semester.



This seems to be consistent with the average percentage of parents who do not want the schools to open. I hope they will be able to accommodate  everyone but I am wondering what kind of resources ( financial, logistical and personnel) to make that happen and all for a (hopefully) limited amount of time. 

If I were in a position to decide, I would have opened a very small number of schools early and give them all the resources to function properly. It is easier to learn and improve constantly if you start that way, be more prepared when you open all the schools (which will eventually have to happen anyway). I am sure some parents would have not be happy though, they would have said that their kids are not guinea pigs.


----------



## Theiggy

Just wanted to add I have made the very difficult decision to keep my kids home (chose full time remote learning). I will be working full time, and my husband will try to wfh as much as he can. They will be in 8th and 10th grades. When asked, it’s what they preferred. Our numbers are very low here but I expect to see an increase once school starts. We can opt back in to in-person schooling (which is only every other day hybrid anyway) in January when the 2nd semester starts if we want. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## travelpager

TravelTime said:


> I think you are right. I can’t see schools opening until the virus disappears. I do not see that happening until at least late 2021.



Even if virus doesn't disappear,  different areas (states, countries) demonstrate that the virus can be managed through combination of repeated and rapid testing, quarantine, contact tracing, masks, social distancing. I could see school districts opening with less controversy all around in areas where (1) testing is extensive and positivity rates fall consistently below 5%, (2) hospital capacity is not under strain or threat, and (3) schools adopt protocols consistent with infection management protocols. Fwiw, I would send my kids.


----------



## Cornell

@Theiggy Congrats on making a decision.  I hope that your kids find it to be a good experience.

I know that when we were still presented with options (in person vs. remote) , my daughter wanted to go remote b/c all of the rules, regs, protocols, signage, floor markings, etc would have made her crazy.


----------



## Theiggy

Cornell said:


> @Theiggy Congrats on making a decision. I hope that your kids find it to be a good experience.
> 
> I know that when we were still presented with options (in person vs. remote) , my daughter wanted to go remote b/c all of the rules, regs, protocols, signage, floor markings, etc would have made her crazy.



Yes, my daughter didn’t want to wear a mask all day, they understood they would be sitting in one place most of the time and would be home every other day anyway. School will not be the same. 

My kids are also very good students. They have had school issued chrome books since 5th or 6th grade, and were comfortable with online learning in the spring. They are not the type of kids (or the age) that will suffer without 6 months of in person school. I also feel a sense of social responsibility. My kids staying home, means less kids in school. Many families can’t afford to have their kids stay home for several reasons. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MULTIZ321

Article: Nebraska school district cancels classes as staff catch coronavirus.










						Nebraska school district cancels classes as staff catch coronavirus
					

A Nebraska school district said on Saturday it had canceled classes after staff members tested positive for the new coronavirus, the latest state to see instruction disrupted after resuming in-person learning.




					www.reuters.com
				



.


Richard


----------



## Cornell

Theiggy said:


> Yes, my daughter didn’t want to wear a mask all day, they understood they would be sitting in one place most of the time and would be home every other day anyway. School will not be the same.
> 
> My kids are also very good students. They have had school issued chrome books since 5th or 6th grade, and were comfortable with online learning in the spring. They are not the type of kids (or the age) that will suffer without 6 months of in person school. I also feel a sense of social responsibility. My kids staying home, means less kids in school. Many families can’t afford to have their kids stay home for several reasons.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your comment about "6 months of in person school" is interesting to me.  Many of us in the Chicago suburbs feel pretty confident that school will not be reopening at all for this entire academic year.


----------



## Theiggy

Cornell said:


> Your comment about "6 months of in person school" is interesting to me. Many of us in the Chicago suburbs feel pretty confident that school will not be reopening at all for this entire academic year.



Well it’s “at least 6months”. Here on LI our numbers are below 1 percent so there is the possibility that I’m wrong and things do get better. As of now most kids on LI will return to school. Each individual district has their own plan. Most are hybrid plans. 

I am tending to think that an outbreak will happen fairly soon and school will close. This way my kids will already be home and no real change for them. Most things are already open here including indoor dining, hair salons, nail salons etc. So it would be surprising for schools not to open, but there are those that believe Governor Cuomo will not let schools open at the last minute. I don’t believe that unless we had a huge spike. NYC is a whole other issue with teachers and students taking public transport, less money and space for needed safety protocols etc. 

I will still be working full time in a school, but no choice about that. 

To me it’s all very sad. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## travelpager

Theiggy said:


> [...] Here on LI our numbers are below 1 percent so there is the possibility that I’m wrong and things do get better. As of now most kids on LI will return to school. Each individual district has their own plan. Most are hybrid plans.
> 
> I am tending to think that an outbreak will happen fairly soon and school will close. This way my kids will already be home and no real change for them.
> 
> To me it’s all very sad.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 
Wow. Your opinions and predictions echo my sentiments about situation here, except with local testing positivity rate 10%<.  As one of a few families in Kid1's small private high school to choose the remote learning option for the first quarter, I felt the judgment from the school's administration as we attended Back-to-School night last week (shrug). At this school, Remote Learning students may not participate in extracurricular activities. I take issue with this policy and underlying intent but I hold my peace because I expect the virus will disrupt in-person classes. Meanwhile, we (okay, I) work to get properly set up at home and investigate ways to shore up the activity gap.

More than anything, I agree that it's all very sad.


----------



## Cornell

@travelpager @Theiggy Feeling sad:  YUP.  Friday night I went to pick up my daughter's yearbook from last year (they hand them out in the fall).  As I drove away I just burst into tears, which is so unlike me.  Something about that yearbook just set me off.  I was thinking about this year's yearbook and was like "why bother?".  What can they possibly put in there?  I was sad, too, not just for my daughter, but for the parents.  Raising a child to the end of their schooling and we can't experience the "last" events with our peers.  

Prior to this I had just been feeling angry so these emotions just snuck up and surprised me.


----------



## pedro47

Before COVID-19 our educational system was falling behind the worlds educational systems in mathematics and the sciences.  How far have we now fallen in the world educational systems?.  IMHO.


----------



## Cornell

More school closures at the last minute here.  One district 90% of parents want some form of  in person learning; the other 85%.  '









						District 86 Now Going Entirely Remote
					

Officials cite changed guidance from state authorities for the district's reversal.




					patch.com


----------



## bbodb1

pedro47 said:


> Before COVID-19 our educational system was falling behind the worlds educational systems in mathematics and the sciences.  How far have we now fallen in the world educational systems?.  IMHO.



Until we revise the notion of everyone _deserves_ an education to everyone _has a right to earn_ their education, this will be a continuing decline.  Personal responsibility begins with the student, then extends to the family and then includes the teacher - not the opposite direction.  

The largest hurdles to overcome are the idea (still too commonly perpetuated) that all students should pursue college and the structure of our junior high and high schools does not match the needs of the current job market.  

We need a sensible return to old school.


----------



## bbodb1

Cornell said:


> More school closures at the last minute here.  One district 90% of parents want some form of  in person learning; the other 85%.  '
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> District 86 Now Going Entirely Remote
> 
> 
> Officials cite changed guidance from state authorities for the district's reversal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> patch.com



This situation would seem ripe for a virtual or blended approach.  I will give the Arkansas DOE some credit for pushing schools to ensure these option were offered by the local districts.  I am assuming Illinois is taking more of an all or nothing approach?  

Just to be clear, Arkansas options are currently

Virtual - student is committed to learning from home for either the 1st 9 weeks or 1st semester (can change then if desired).
Blended/In person - these students start the year attending school in person BUT if needed, these students can be switched to Virtual instruction should a school need to close for a period of time.  

How well this works remains to be seen, but it did at least address the concern of providing parents with choices.


----------



## pedro47

bbodb1 said:


> Until we revise the notion of everyone _deserves_ an education to everyone _has a right to earn_ their education, this will be a continuing decline.  Personal responsibility begins with the student, then extends to the family and then includes the teacher - not the opposite direction.
> 
> The largest hurdles to overcome are the idea (still too commonly perpetuated) that all students should pursue college and the structure of our junior high and high schools does not match the needs of the current job market.
> 
> We need a sensible return to old school.


All students should not pursue college and white collar jobs. We still need trade & technical schools to train students that do not want to attend college or to enter the military.
There are still some students that loved to work with their hands and they do not mind getting their hands dirty.  They loved to build things and there are other students that love to cook, to paint houses or automobiles, to lay bricks or cement blocks, cutting grass,  to work on computers, to work on trash trucks, they love to drive trucks,or working in a factory from 9 to 5. We still need  jobs that does no require skill workers. IMHO.


----------



## TravelTime

This is kind of over the top.

—————

*Space for School*

.......For families of school-age children, the pandemic has turned their homes into virtual classrooms. Now, with more remote learning on the horizon, many families are grappling with how to accommodate an entire year spent at home. Adam Potter and Tom Wallace, a married couple in Greenwich, Conn., looked at the first floor of their 5,000-square-foot home and saw an opportunity to turn the space into a schoolhouse for their daughters, ages 6 and 7, and both entering second grade in the fall.

“By the beginning of May, I recognized that this could continue for another year,” Mr. Potter, 52, who is a retired entrepreneur in the insurance industry, said of remote learning. “I don’t think that’s the right option for our girls.”

They hired a retired elementary schoolteacher, an aide, and invited six other girls to join them in what they describe as a home-schooling co-op. Mr. Potter and Mr. Wallace, 58, an actor and a director, named the school Willowmere Academy, after the name of their street, and made a school logo of a goose, printed on T-shirts. “We want our kids in a school without social distancing, without wearing masks,” Mr. Potter said. “We want to create this great school environment for them.”

In late July, they finished a *$60,000 renovation of the first floor*, which already had a family room. They added a half bath and renovated an unfinished room, installing recessed lighting and new flooring. If it hadn’t been for Covid-19, Mr. Potter said he would not have spent the money on the renovations. The other families in the school are not contributing to build-out costs, but *each family is paying $16,000 tuition per child*.

The house, a waterfront property on Greenwich Cove, is elevated, so the first floor has its own ground level entrance separate from the main entrance to the home. Mr. Potter envisions the teacher taking the children to the beach for marine biology lessons.

They plan to decorate the classroom space with tables, chairs, bookshelves, a white board and a desk for the teacher. “We’re making it fun,” Mr. Potter said. “We’re putting in bean bag chairs. We’ll have an art corner and a reading corner, so it will look like walking into a second-grade classroom.”......

Exerpt from this article:








						Renovating for a New Normal (Published 2020)
					

Working and schooling from home for the foreseeable future has prompted some homeowners to consider major home renovations.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Ken555

bbodb1 said:


> We need a sensible return to old school.



What does this mean?


----------



## Rolltydr

Ken555 said:


> What does this mean?


C’mon Ken. Don’t you want to go back to the old days when we had to walk to school. Uphill. Both ways. Not to mention all the other things that were “better” back then but now are “contentious”.


----------



## Ken555

Rolltydr said:


> C’mon Ken. Don’t you want to go back to the old days when we had to walk to school. Uphill. Both ways. Not to mention all the other things that were “better” back then but now are “contentious”.



Yeah, I remember that...and walking thru snow... I also remember stories my dad told me about his teacher throwing handballs at any student talking in class... I suppose those were the days. Where's Archie Bunker when we need him?


----------



## Luanne

Rolltydr said:


> C’mon Ken. Don’t you want to go back to the old days when we had to walk to school. Uphill. Both ways. Not to mention all the other things that were “better” back then but now are “contentious”.


According to dh he had to walk uphill, both ways, in the snow.


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> This is kind of over the top.
> 
> —————
> 
> *Space for School*
> 
> .......For families of school-age children, the pandemic has turned their homes into virtual classrooms. Now, with more remote learning on the horizon, many families are grappling with how to accommodate an entire year spent at home. Adam Potter and Tom Wallace, a married couple in Greenwich, Conn., looked at the first floor of their 5,000-square-foot home and saw an opportunity to turn the space into a schoolhouse for their daughters, ages 6 and 7, and both entering second grade in the fall.
> 
> “By the beginning of May, I recognized that this could continue for another year,” Mr. Potter, 52, who is a retired entrepreneur in the insurance industry, said of remote learning. “I don’t think that’s the right option for our girls.”
> 
> They hired a retired elementary schoolteacher, an aide, and invited six other girls to join them in what they describe as a home-schooling co-op. Mr. Potter and Mr. Wallace, 58, an actor and a director, named the school Willowmere Academy, after the name of their street, and made a school logo of a goose, printed on T-shirts. “We want our kids in a school without social distancing, without wearing masks,” Mr. Potter said. “We want to create this great school environment for them.”
> 
> In late July, they finished a *$60,000 renovation of the first floor*, which already had a family room. They added a half bath and renovated an unfinished room, installing recessed lighting and new flooring. If it hadn’t been for Covid-19, Mr. Potter said he would not have spent the money on the renovations. The other families in the school are not contributing to build-out costs, but *each family is paying $16,000 tuition per child*.
> 
> The house, a waterfront property on Greenwich Cove, is elevated, so the first floor has its own ground level entrance separate from the main entrance to the home. Mr. Potter envisions the teacher taking the children to the beach for marine biology lessons.
> 
> They plan to decorate the classroom space with tables, chairs, bookshelves, a white board and a desk for the teacher. “We’re making it fun,” Mr. Potter said. “We’re putting in bean bag chairs. We’ll have an art corner and a reading corner, so it will look like walking into a second-grade classroom.”......
> 
> Exerpt from this article:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Renovating for a New Normal (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> Working and schooling from home for the foreseeable future has prompted some homeowners to consider major home renovations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


If I had the $$$ and ability to do this , I don’t think I’d be sharing with the NYT


----------



## jabberwocky

Luanne said:


> According to dh he had to walk uphill, both ways, in the snow.


These days don’t they cancel school if there is snow?


----------



## Luanne

jabberwocky said:


> These days don’t they cancel school if there is snow?


I don't know.  I grew up in California.


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## Rolltydr

Ken555 said:


> Yeah, I remember that...and walking thru snow... I also remember stories my dad told me about his teacher throwing handballs at any student talking in class... I suppose those were the days. Where's Archie Bunker when we need him?


Well, where I grew up, Archie would have been in the school. However, Mr. Jefferson would not have been allowed until I was a sophomore.


----------



## bogey21

pedro47 said:


> All students should not pursue college and white collar jobs. We still need trade & technical schools to train students that do not want to attend college or to enter the military.



The High School I attended in  Suburban Philadelphia had an extensive Vocational Education Program.  My recollection is that the kids who took advantage of it spent mornings with reading, writing, arithmetic, etc and afternoons pursued auto mechanics, welding, drafting and whatever other trades they offered.  It was a such a large operation that the vocational instruction was in a separate building.  My fuzzy recollection (I graduated in 1953) was that about 25% of my graduating class was in College Prep; 25% in Vocational Ed; and the remaining 50% in (for lack of a better term) General Education...

George


----------



## geekette

bogey21 said:


> The High School I attended in  Suburban Philadelphia had an extensive Vocational Education Program.  My recollection is that the kids who took advantage of it spent mornings with reading, writing, arithmetic, etc and afternoons pursued auto mechanics, welding, drafting and whatever other trades they offered.  It was a such a large operation that the vocational instruction was in a separate building.  My fuzzy recollection (I graduated in 1953) was that about 25% of my graduating class was in College Prep; 25% in Vocational Ed; and the remaining 50% in (for lack of a better term) General Education...
> 
> George


this was one of those great programs that ended at my school right after I graduated (84).   It was called Vocational Education at my school, really gave some kids a head start right into a career.


----------



## mdurette

TravelTime said:


> This is kind of over the top.
> 
> —————
> 
> *Space for School*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Renovating for a New Normal (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> Working and schooling from home for the foreseeable future has prompted some homeowners to consider major home renovations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



This accidently happened for us.....but just for the cost of paint and some furniture.     We moved into this house when DD was 8, the spare bedroom was play room and by the time the spring rolled around it was a jam packed room full of dolls, stuffed animals and a whole lot of other stuff she had outgrown.  (she is now 14).     In March our travel plans got cancelled and she was off for 2 weeks from school.    We took the time to remodel the room into more of a teenage lounge.     It worked out very well, when she went back to remote learning, she had her own space to retreat to.


----------



## Cornell

I'm not sure what these school districts thought was going to happen.....you don't offer services, people are going to take their "business" elsewhere.

*FCCPS has seen a rise in families deciding to leave the system until we are either back in person or there is a vaccine to fight the virus. I respect each family's decision and also want to share some information and thinking. At our recent School Board meeting, I used the term “pandemic flight” in reference to families deciding to homeschool, pod and hire a face-to-face private instructor for homeschooled children, attend private schools, and/or look for other private solutions to make it all work. My family -- two full-time working parents and two school-aged children -- is facing many of the same challenges and empathize with the dilemmas you find yourself in. However, it is important that our community understands that these actions -- that is, disenrolling from FCCPS -- have consequences.  *

*FCCPS receives funding from the local Government, the State Government, and the Federal Government based on the numbers of students we have enrolled. If there is an exodus of students from FCCPS, the funding for our schools will decrease. As a consequence of the decrease in funding, we will need to make hard decisions with respect to our budget. A concrete example of the immediate impact is that we have frozen the hires of several teaching positions (vacated due to resignation or retirement) because we now don’t have the student population to support those positions.*









						The Road to Reopening - Aug 14, 2020
					

Dear FCCPS Families, Happy Friday, everyone. This was a big week for us in FCCPS as we welcomed our...




					www.fccps.org


----------



## TravelTime

mdurette said:


> This accidently happened for us.....but just for the cost of paint and some furniture.     We moved into this house when DD was 8, the spare bedroom was play room and by the time the spring rolled around it was a jam packed room full of dolls, stuffed animals and a whole lot of other stuff she had outgrown.  (she is now 14).     In March our travel plans got cancelled and she was off for 2 weeks from school.    We took the time to remodel the room into more of a teenage lounge.     It worked out very well, when she went back to remote learning, she had her own space to retreat to.



That sounds fine. In the article, I thought it was a little over the top to spend $60K to remodel the house and $16K a student for covid school. But I bet some people are spending even more. I know the private schools out here cost about $45K a student so $16K per student to pay a teacher and an assistant might be reasonable.


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> I'm not sure what these school districts thought was going to happen.....you don't offer services, people are going to take their "business" elsewhere.
> 
> *FCCPS has seen a rise in families deciding to leave the system until we are either back in person or there is a vaccine to fight the virus. I respect each family's decision and also want to share some information and thinking. At our recent School Board meeting, I used the term “pandemic flight” in reference to families deciding to homeschool, pod and hire a face-to-face private instructor for homeschooled children, attend private schools, and/or look for other private solutions to make it all work. My family -- two full-time working parents and two school-aged children -- is facing many of the same challenges and empathize with the dilemmas you find yourself in. However, it is important that our community understands that these actions -- that is, disenrolling from FCCPS -- have consequences.
> 
> FCCPS receives funding from the local Government, the State Government, and the Federal Government based on the numbers of students we have enrolled. If there is an exodus of students from FCCPS, the funding for our schools will decrease. As a consequence of the decrease in funding, we will need to make hard decisions with respect to our budget. A concrete example of the immediate impact is that we have frozen the hires of several teaching positions (vacated due to resignation or retirement) because we now don’t have the student population to support those positions.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Road to Reopening - Aug 14, 2020
> 
> 
> Dear FCCPS Families, Happy Friday, everyone. This was a big week for us in FCCPS as we welcomed our...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fccps.org



If people are taking their kids out of public school, then they have fewer students to teach so they would not need to replace the teachers leaving.


----------



## bbodb1

I don't want to use the word exodus to describe what is happening, but I can tell you a growing number of families are fed up with the rot and decay the public school education system finds itself in these days.  Over the years, increasing numbers of kids who are capable (or better) students being are pulled from the public school systems because of the lack of discipline in the system creating classrooms where learning is the exception .  Teachers are expected to spend ever increasing amounts of time correcting behaviors in the classroom _which collaterally means there will be less time spent on teaching.  _ Many families are rightfully at their wit's end.  COVID-19 has become (yet another) stressor on a system already with an oversupply of stress sources.  

Even if we look back to a time when public schools worked at their best, the American public school system has always served more than one purpose.  But the issue faced today is the "_school as daycare"_ function has far surpassed the _"school as a provider of knowledge" _function *and a growing number of people enter the school doors with this mindset*_.  _Yes, schools serve as the first environment in which large scale socialization with others occurs (and there is a value to that function) but this function has usurped what must always be the primary function - the pursuit and acquisition of knowledge. 

The ongoing destruction of the family unit has consequences that have been playing out in the hallways of our schools (and elsewhere).  Some may wish to be intentionally blind to this but the results are there for those who wish to see.


----------



## bbodb1

In the same article @Cornell references above is this quote:


> ...When we can come back to school face-to-face, if those who left (i.e., de-enrolled) decide to return to FCCPS, our class sizes will likely be larger than the community expectation because we won’t have the staff for the additional students. It isn’t as easy as just hiring an additional teacher. For example, if eight de-enrolled fourth-grade students re-enroll in FCCPS, we won’t hire another teacher for 8 students -- those students would be placed in classrooms with existing teachers who are at their max.
> 
> The alternative would be to hire a new teacher and move a segment of students to new classrooms, which would be very disruptive. Lastly, once the budget has been reduced by a certain number of teachers, it is very difficult to get those positions back through the budget process. It becomes a competing priority with staff compensation, growth of programs, etc....



In the first half of that quote, FCCPS has just publicly said it would knowingly and willingly violate state rules on the maximum number of students allowed in a classroom all because it cannot budget accordingly.  As if budgets cannot be changed.  

In a nutshell, this common administrative mindset sums up everything wrong with public school administration.  _*Cram the highest number of kids (and maybe then some) allowable in a classroom because we don't want to hire another teacher while at the same time your administration is filled with people having little or no impact in the classroom who collectively pull in the highest salaries in the district. *_When districts refuse to be innovative in their thinking (including budgeting) they resort to veiled threats such as the quote above.  The district's lack of desire to actively budget in a manner allowing for needed change speaks volumes about their lack of commitment to education and more toward their own (personal) preservation.


----------



## Cornell

bbodb1 said:


> I don't want to use the word exodus to describe what is happening


When I addressed our school board about this remote-only choice I discussed this very thing.  I framed my comments around the fact that many parents are going to seek alternatives this year and because of that, this could be the beginning of the end of public education as we know it -- and that the school boards and teachers unions are creating their own demise.


----------



## Cornell

bbodb1 said:


> they resort to veiled threats such as the quote above.


The chutzpah that we are now seeing in many of these school districts is beyond belief to me:  You aren't going to educate our kids properly , parents finally get fed up, and then you send us a veiled threat about our choices.


----------



## Cornell

*"My guess is that public school teachers and workers are suddenly realizing they’ve been advocating their own irrelevance. They are stuck in an awful situation, between that and risking their health; but that’s something that essential workers across the country have been dealing with for months. Public schools now risk being classified altogether as non-essential.   "*










						Kelly Evans: School's out for ever
					






					www.cnbc.com


----------



## PigsDad

Cornell said:


> Kelly Evans: School's out for ever
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Interesting article, and should be very sobering for all teachers, administrators and other staff at public schools.  I have often had the same thought as this quote from the article:


> *If you’re forced to learn remotely, why go with your local school’s online offerings when you can have your pick of curricula from the internet, and do it from anywhere?*



If I still had a kid in school, I would definitely be looking at alternatives to what my local school was offering.  After all, it makes sense that other companies who have specialized in remote learning would do a much better job than teachers who have been thrust into this situation by the pandemic.

And as has been mentioned here before, those with means will be the ones looking outside their local public school for better options, increasing the education gap between the economic classes.

Kurt


----------



## PamMo

To make things more confusing, some districts are offering tuition-based "Learning Centers" while everyone else is "Online Only" this school year. In Durham, NC, you can pay $140/wk to send your child *to a public school* for instruction. Exactly how does this make sense?






						DPS school board authorizes opening learning centers for children
					

The Durham Public Schools Board of Education authorized the opening of six learning centers.




					www.dpsnc.net


----------



## Cornell

PigsDad said:


> Interesting article, and should be very sobering for all teachers, administrators and other staff at public schools.  I have often had the same thought as this quote from the article:
> 
> 
> If I still had a kid in school, I would definitely be looking at alternatives to what my local school was offering.  After all, it makes sense that other companies who have specialized in remote learning would do a much better job than teachers who have been thrust into this situation by the pandemic.
> 
> And as has been mentioned here before, those with means will be the ones looking outside their local public school for better options, increasing the education gap between the economic classes.
> 
> Kurt


I'm preaching what I'm doing (online high school offered privately, not through public education) loudly to as many of my peers as possible.  There are much better remote learning opportunities than what 99% of parents are settling for right now.


----------



## Cornell

PamMo said:


> To make things more confusing, some districts are offering tuition-based "Learning Centers" while everyone else is "Online Only" this school year. In Durham, NC, you can pay $140/wk to send your child to a public school for instruction. Exactly how does this make sense?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DPS school board authorizes opening learning centers for children
> 
> 
> The Durham Public Schools Board of Education authorized the opening of six learning centers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dpsnc.net


I've commented this extensively in my comments above.  It defies logic and further undermines the "keep schools closed" side.


----------



## TravelTime

PamMo said:


> To make things more confusing, some districts are offering tuition-based "Learning Centers" while everyone else is "Online Only" this school year. In Durham, NC, you can pay $140/wk to send your child to a public school for instruction. Exactly how does this make sense?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DPS school board authorizes opening learning centers for children
> 
> 
> The Durham Public Schools Board of Education authorized the opening of six learning centers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dpsnc.net



Sounds like public school districts are helping to widen the economic divide.


----------



## Brett

bbodb1 said:


> I don't want to use the word exodus to describe what is happening, but I can tell you a growing number of families are fed up with the rot and decay the public school education system finds itself in these days.  Over the years, increasing numbers of kids who are capable (or better) students being are pulled from the public school systems because of the lack of discipline in the system creating classrooms where learning is the exception .  Teachers are expected to spend ever increasing amounts of time correcting behaviors in the classroom _which collaterally means there will be less time spent on teaching.  _ Many families are rightfully at their wit's end.  COVID-19 has become (yet another) stressor on a system already with an oversupply of stress sources.
> 
> Even if we look back to a time when public schools worked at their best, the American public school system has always served more than one purpose.  But the issue faced today is the "_school as daycare"_ function has far surpassed the _"school as a provider of knowledge" _function *and a growing number of people enter the school doors with this mindset*_.  _Yes, schools serve as the first environment in which large scale socialization with others occurs (and there is a value to that function) but this function has usurped what must always be the primary function - the pursuit and acquisition of knowledge.
> 
> The ongoing destruction of the family unit has consequences that have been playing out in the hallways of our schools (and elsewhere).  Some may wish to be intentionally blind to this but the results are there for those who wish to see.




"rotting and decay" -  lack of discipline - behavior problems, school as daycare
"destruction of family units"

I never realized schools were a dystopian nightmare !
Why are the best and brightest going to tech companies instead of teaching ......


----------



## bogey21

PamMo said:


> To make things more confusing, some districts are offering tuition-based "Learning Centers" while everyone else is "Online Only" this school year. In Durham, NC, you can pay $140/wk to send your child *to a public school* for instruction. Exactly how does this make sense?



Wow!!  A Private School within a Public School...

George


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## TravelTime

I do not think the problem is with the teachers. I think it is with the government and school administration and how they run public schools.


----------



## geekette

TravelTime said:


> I do not think the problem is with the teachers. I think it is with the government and school administration and how they run public schools.


Agreed.   teachers are employees.


----------



## jabberwocky

Brett said:


> I never realized schools were a dystopian nightmare !
> Why are the best and brightest going to tech companies instead of teaching ......


It’s very difficult to get an H1B visa to teach in a public school.


----------



## TravelTime

How parents can help shy and introverted kids through a particularly tough back-to-school season

We signed up my 7-year-old son for a socially distanced soccer camp, eager to give him some semblance of normalcy for the first time since our Oregon schools closed in mid-March.

As we approached the field, though, he pulled my hand back and started crying. “I’m nervous to be around other kids,” he wailed. “I just want to stay home with you.” We spent that week as we have the previous 15: at home.

Pre-pandemic, my son had often been slow to warm to new situations but after a few minutes generally became the friendly, loving kid we know him to be. But months at home seem to have turned his shyness into an overwhelming struggle.

I’m not alone in being concerned about how my kid will readjust to interacting with others as school starts up again, even if that interaction is solely online for the time being. Parents are fretting that their children are regressing, not just in academics but in social skills.......

Read more here:


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2020/08/17/how-parents-can-help-shy-introverted-kids-through-particularly-tough-back-to-school-season/?hpid=hp_lifestyle1-8-12_parenting-0817%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> How parents can help shy and introverted kids through a particularly tough back-to-school season
> 
> We signed up my 7-year-old son for a socially distanced soccer camp, eager to give him some semblance of normalcy for the first time since our Oregon schools closed in mid-March.
> 
> As we approached the field, though, he pulled my hand back and started crying. “I’m nervous to be around other kids,” he wailed. “I just want to stay home with you.” We spent that week as we have the previous 15: at home.
> 
> Pre-pandemic, my son had often been slow to warm to new situations but after a few minutes generally became the friendly, loving kid we know him to be. But months at home seem to have turned his shyness into an overwhelming struggle.
> 
> I’m not alone in being concerned about how my kid will readjust to interacting with others as school starts up again, even if that interaction is solely online for the time being. Parents are fretting that their children are regressing, not just in academics but in social skills.......
> 
> Read more here:
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2020/08/17/how-parents-can-help-shy-introverted-kids-through-particularly-tough-back-to-school-season/?hpid=hp_lifestyle1-8-12_parenting-0817%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans


I can't read the whole thing b/c of the paywall, but just what you've posted is enough to make me really , really sad.  It's just horrendous what it happening to kids.  I am seriously concerned about what this generation is going to be like down the line.


----------



## MULTIZ321

Cornell said:


> I can't read the whole thing b/c of the paywall, but just what you've posted is enough to make me really , really sad.  It's just horrendous what it happening to kids.  I am seriously concerned about what this generation is going to be like down the line.


If you have Amazon Prime, you can read the article by logging in via your Amazon Prime account.

Richard


----------



## TravelTime

MULTIZ321 said:


> If you have Amazon Prime, you can read the article by logging in via your Amazon Prime account.
> 
> Richard



I have Amazon Prime. Where do you go to read newspapers for free?


----------



## MULTIZ321

TravelTime said:


> I have Amazon Prime. Where do you go to read newspapers for free?


Click on "Log In" - one of the choices that will pop up willeither be Amazon and/or Gmail.

Richard


----------



## bbodb1

Brett said:


> "rotting and decay" -  lack of discipline - behavior problems, school as daycare
> "destruction of family units"
> 
> I never realized schools were a dystopian nightmare !
> Why are the best and brightest going to tech companies instead of teaching ......


Trying walking the halls of schools these days - a very eye opening experience.


----------



## Ken555

8 days into semester, Notre Dame halts in-person classes as 146 students get coronavirus

“The virus is a formidable foe,” Notre Dame's president said. Also on Tuesday, Michigan State University suspended plans for in-person classes on campus.









						8 days into semester, Notre Dame halts in-person classes as 146 students get coronavirus
					

“The virus is a formidable foe,” Notre Dame's president said. Also on Tuesday, Michigan State University suspended plans for in-person classes on campus.




					www.nbcnews.com
				





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## Cornell

The Chicago Teachers Union fought to keep schools remote this fall.  They got their wish.  Now they are filing a grievance b/c they don't like remote learning. 

*“Today, we filed the first in a series of grievances against CPS for issuing remote learning guidance that fails to provide our school communities with the instructional tools necessary to deliver proper instruction in a remote context required by the labor contract,” Sharkey said in a statement. “The Union is demanding that CPS provide educators and students with the infrastructure necessary to conduct remote learning, and the increase of professional development time to allow for training and collaboration with parents, caregivers and students on remote learning best practices.”*









						Chicago Public Schools’ new fall plan includes full days of remote and live learning, but prompts union grievance
					

The fall plan has a stricter structure and more accountability measures than last spring, when schools were suddenly forced to figure out remote learning when the coronavirus shifted learning online.




					www.chicagotribune.com


----------



## PigsDad

Ken555 said:


> 8 days into semester, Notre Dame halts in-person classes as 146 students get coronavirus
> 
> “The virus is a formidable foe,” Notre Dame's president said. Also on Tuesday, Michigan State University suspended plans for in-person classes on campus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8 days into semester, Notre Dame halts in-person classes as 146 students get coronavirus
> 
> 
> “The virus is a formidable foe,” Notre Dame's president said. Also on Tuesday, Michigan State University suspended plans for in-person classes on campus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com


From the article:


> *Most of those students were seniors living off-campus who contracted the disease at gatherings where social distancing rules were not followed and masks weren’t worn, the school said, citing a contact tracing analysis.*


So not really anything to do directly with in-person classes, but more a result of people not taking the pandemic seriously and not following guidelines while off-campus.


> *None of the students have been hospitalized and the school said it would implement remote learning for two weeks*.


No surprise, but now all students will have to pay for the acts of a few.

Kurt


----------



## Ken555

PigsDad said:


> From the article:
> 
> So not really anything to do directly with in-person classes, but more a result of people not taking the pandemic seriously and not following guidelines while off-campus.
> 
> No surprise, but now all students will have to pay for the acts of a few.
> 
> Kurt



Yes, but it doesn’t matter. Schools open. Students move. Students congregate. Students pass virus. 100% predictable.


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----------



## PigsDad

Ken555 said:


> Yes, but it doesn’t matter. Schools open. Students move. Students congregate. Students pass virus. 100% predictable.


Replace "students" with "people" in your sentence above, and it doesn't change much.

It's just a different set of people in a different setting.  Do you think that these young adults were not getting together with their friends when school was not in session?  These are the same people that were gathering with their non-university friends at bars, on the beach, etc.  There is nothing magic about school being in session -- it stated in the article you posted that neither the classrooms nor the campus was where the outbreak of these infections were happening.  Those who will not follow the guidelines will do so whether they are in their apartment by their university or whether they are living with their parents or whether they are out on their own.  The only difference is now they are part of a different, more trackable population (university students).

Kurt


----------



## Ken555

PigsDad said:


> Replace "students" with "people" in your sentence above, and it doesn't change much.
> 
> It's just a different set of people in a different setting. Do you think that these young adults were not getting together with their friends when school was not in session? These are the same people that were gathering with their non-university friends at bars, on the beach, etc. There is nothing magic about school being in session -- it stated in the article you posted that neither the classrooms nor the campus was where the outbreak of these infections were happening. Those who will not follow the guidelines will do so whether they are in their apartment at their university or whether they are living with their parents or whether they are out on their own. The only difference is now they are part of a different, more trackable population (university students).
> 
> Kurt



Do you expect me to disagree with you after I posted similarly for the last few months? 

To answer you in a word, obviously. And the sun rises from the East.

So why aren’t you upset with these schools even opening in the first place since it was completely predictable what the result would be? I am. Are you? This was a fiasco, in a year of major fiascos. Are we getting numb to so many obvious mistakes?


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----------



## PigsDad

Ken555 said:


> Do you expect me to disagree with you after I posted similarly for the last few months?
> 
> To answer you in a word, obviously. And the sun rises from the East.
> 
> So why aren’t you upset with these schools even opening in the first place since it was completely predictable what the result would be? I am. Are you? This was a fiasco, in a year of major fiascos. Are we getting numb to so many obvious mistakes?


Why are you putting the root cause on whether or not the university is open?  The article stated the infections were *not *from being on campus.  So if the university was just online (like they are going to be now), how would anything be different?  The *only *difference is that those same people who were careless while living close to the university would have been carless elsewhere.

No, I am not blaming the university for opening like you seem to be doing; I am putting the blame on the individuals.  The only reason this is a story is because the contact tracers were able to find a common link between these people.  If the common link was that they were all the same age and living near the university but not attending it, would you still be blaming the university?

Kurt


----------



## Ken555

PigsDad said:


> Why are you putting the blame on whether or not the university is open? The article stated the infections were *not *from being on campus. So if the university was just online (like they are going to be now), how would anything be different? The *only *difference is that those same people who were careless while living close to the university would have been carless elsewhere.
> 
> No, I am not blaming the university for opening like you seem to be doing; I am putting the blame on the individuals. The only reason this is a story is because the contact tracers were able to find a common link between these people. If the common link was that they were all the same age and living near the university but not attending it, would you still be blaming the university?
> 
> Kurt



Kurt,

This is pointless.

They are all to blame. 

Students. 

People.

Schools.

This was predictable. Yet they went ahead and opened school with the hope it wouldn’t cause a problem, and obviously didn’t do enough to prevent spread. They couldn’t. 

This is a prime example of why in person anything is dangerous right now. 

Blaming teachers, or really anyone other than those who could make a difference in solving the pandemic, is, in my opinion, entirely inappropriate. It’s simply not safe for them to be in schools.

For reference:









						Georgia college students throw massive party ahead of school year starting, ignoring COVID-19 guidelines
					

"We are disappointed that many of our students chose to ignore COVID-19 public health guidance by congregating in a large group without social distancing or face coverings," a UNG rep said in a statement.




					www.cbsnews.com
				












						A high school student in Oklahoma knowingly went to school with coronavirus
					

An Oklahoma high school student exposed 17 other students to coronavirus after attending school with a positive diagnosis.




					www.cnn.com
				












						Utah teacher resignations spike over coronavirus concerns ahead of first day of school
					

Teachers in Utah are resigning in droves over coronavirus safety concerns just days before the new school year is set to begin.




					www.foxnews.com
				












						School district cancels classes due to staff absences
					

A pandemic of the novel coronavirus has now killed more than 772,000 people worldwide.




					abcnews.go.com
				




Cheers,
Ken


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----------



## PigsDad

Ken555 said:


> Kurt,
> 
> This is pointless.
> 
> They are all to blame.
> 
> Students.
> 
> People.
> 
> Schools.
> 
> This was predictable. Yet they went ahead and opened school with the hope it wouldn’t cause a problem, and obviously didn’t do enough to prevent spread. They couldn’t.
> 
> This is a prime example of why in person anything is dangerous right now.
> 
> Blaming teachers, or really anyone other than those who could make a difference in solving the pandemic, is, in my opinion, entirely inappropriate. It’s simply not safe for them to be in schools.
> 
> For reference:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Georgia college students throw massive party ahead of school year starting, ignoring COVID-19 guidelines
> 
> 
> "We are disappointed that many of our students chose to ignore COVID-19 public health guidance by congregating in a large group without social distancing or face coverings," a UNG rep said in a statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbsnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A high school student in Oklahoma knowingly went to school with coronavirus
> 
> 
> An Oklahoma high school student exposed 17 other students to coronavirus after attending school with a positive diagnosis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Utah teacher resignations spike over coronavirus concerns ahead of first day of school
> 
> 
> Teachers in Utah are resigning in droves over coronavirus safety concerns just days before the new school year is set to begin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> School district cancels classes due to staff absences
> 
> 
> A pandemic of the novel coronavirus has now killed more than 772,000 people worldwide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Ken
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


All of those articles are talking about spreading the virus *in *the school.  That was not the case at Notre Dame.  So again, I'll ask you this (let's see if you will answer this time!):

*Ken: If the university was just online (like they are going to be now), how would anything be different? *

Additional information:  most of my daughter's friends who's university is starting out online are still living on/near campus.  I would imagine that is what the majority of students are doing this fall.

Kurt


----------



## Ken555

PigsDad said:


> No, I am not blaming the university for opening like you seem to be doing; I am putting the blame on the individuals.



The students seem to be blaming the school. Read this...

Editorial: We all saw this coming









						Editorial: We all saw this coming
					

"The administration continues to prove they have no shame, and the bar for basic decency keeps getting lower."




					www.dailytarheel.com
				





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----------



## Ken555

PigsDad said:


> All of those articles are talking about spreading the virus *in *the school. That was not the case at Notre Dame. So again, I'll ask you this (let's see if you will answer this time!):
> 
> *Ken: If the university was just online (like they are going to be now), how would anything be different? *
> 
> Kurt



Stop trying to bait me. I’ll answer what I want, just like others here who so disingenuously ignore my questions.

Of course, the answer to your question is obvious.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## PigsDad

Ken555 said:


> Stop trying to bait me. I’ll answer what I want, just like others here who so disingenuously ignore my questions.


So you admit nothing would be different.  Thank you for confirming.      

I do find it funny that you posted the article originally, and then seem to disagree with their conclusions.

Kurt

BTW, post another article that has nothing to do with the situation at Notre Dame -- it always helps prove your point.


----------



## Ken555

PigsDad said:


> So you admit nothing would be different. Thank you for confirming.
> 
> Kurt
> 
> BTW, post another article that has nothing to do with the situation at Notre Dame -- it always helps prove your point.



I don’t get this. You posted earlier and I agreed. Then you tried to paint me into a corner, when we agree, and now you laugh at me and insult me. 

This is what’s called a personal attack on TUG.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## PigsDad

Ken555 said:


> I don’t get this. You posted earlier and I agreed. Then you tried to paint me into a corner, when we agree, and now you laugh at me and insult me.
> 
> This is what’s called a personal attack on TUG.


Lighten up, Francis.    You were trying to place the blame on the school, which is clearly the wrong place for the blame.  I just called you on it.  I'm sorry you you felt it was a "personal attack", which it wasn't.

I'm signing off for the night.  Don't let this conversation raise you BP -- it seems like you are getting far too worked up about this.

Kurt


----------



## Ken555

PigsDad said:


> Lighten up, Francis.  You were trying to place the blame on the school, which is clearly the wrong place for the blame. I just called you on it. I'm sorry you you felt it was a "personal attack", which it wasn't.
> 
> I'm signing off for the night. Don't let this conversation raise you BP -- it seems like you are getting far too worked up about this.
> 
> Kurt



Actually, I’m quite calm. I’m just enjoying tv and responding to inane posts on TUG.

I posted an article. You drew erroneous conclusions about my beliefs about it, then you proceeded to berate me about my posts and that they didn’t directly answer your question. Then you got confused about the various schools the articles I posted referred to, ignored the post about the student editorial, etc.

Of course the schools are to blame. As are the students. As I wrote earlier. There’s “clearly” enough blame for all. Schools may do the best they can, but my point throughout this thread is that they simply don’t have enough resources or ways to minimize spread sufficiently so that there won’t be a problem. When I’ve posted similarly in the past, I’m challenged on specific instances and not the general problem. So sure, talk about one specific school if you wish, but the overall trend is crystal clear...schools simply cannot guarantee the safety of the students. And of course the students will toss caution to the wind. Read that editorial.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Cornell

Ken555 said:


> .schools simply cannot guarantee the safety of the students.


No institution can do this. Life has risks.


----------



## bluehende

Cornell said:


> No institution can do this. Life has risks.


That life will not be very long if you do not avoid risks though.


----------



## Cornell

bluehende said:


> That life will not be very long if you do not avoid risks though.


See -- here's the issue.  Your definition of "risk" is probably very different than mine.  I consider my child's contracting C19 on the low-risk-of-life spectrum for a 17 year old.  Yes, I'm sure that shocks some of you.


----------



## bluehende

Cornell said:


> See -- here's the issue.  Your definition of "risk" is probably very different than mine.  I consider my child's contracting C19 on the low-risk-of-life spectrum for a 17 year old.  Yes, I'm sure that shocks some of you.


Has been the issue from day 1.  If other peoples actions did not effect the community as a whole with this virus I would say have at it.  We need to get this virus under control or we will not be back to normal.


----------



## Cornell

This, in my opinion,  is a more concerning risk for young adults right now than C19







			https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6932a1-H.pdf


----------



## bluehende

Cornell said:


> This, in my opinion,  is a more concerning risk for young adults right now than C19
> 
> View attachment 25099
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6932a1-H.pdf


Was that survey done in 2019 too,

from 2017









						The rate of high school-aged youth considering and committing suicide continues to rise, particularly among female students - Child Trends
					





					www.childtrends.org
				







Seems it was much higher in 2017


----------



## Country Roads

Cornell said:


> See -- here's the issue.  Your definition of "risk" is probably very different than mine.  I consider my child's contracting C19 on the low-risk-of-life spectrum for a 17 year old.  Yes, I'm sure that shocks some of you.



For one and as a parent. I admire your outlook and understanding of raising a child. Life itself is a risk in so many ways and even we though we try our best, we simply can't protect our children from all dangers. Just as our parents couldn't protect us from all that was dangerous and somehow, here we are. Perhaps birth certificates need to come with a disclaimer making note that, under all that's good and wonderful, there lies a world that is evil and dangerous. Parents, regardless of all they do and as hard as they try, can only do so much to protect you but, nonetheless fate will play it's part.


----------



## Cornell

bluehende said:


> Was that survey done in 2019,
> 
> from 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The rate of high school-aged youth considering and committing suicide continues to rise, particularly among female students - Child Trends
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.childtrends.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 25100
> 
> Seems it was much higher in 2017


I posted the link as I knew you would clamor for it.  Survey dates:  June 24–30, 2020


----------



## Cornell

Country Roads said:


> For one and as a parent. I admire your outlook and understanding of raising a child. Life itself is a risk in so many ways and even we though we try our best, we simply can't protect our children from all dangers. Just as our parents couldn't protect us from all that was dangerous and somehow, here we are. Perhaps birth certificates need to come with a disclaimer making note that, under all that's good and wonderful, there lies a world that is evil and dangerous. Parents, regardless of all they do and as hard as they try, can only do so much to protect you but, nonetheless fate will play it's part.


Thank you.   When my daughter was born my wise dad gave me some parenting advice.  He RARELY provided advice when it came to my life once I "grew up", so I really listened.  He said "Each year on her (my daughter's) birthday, think about the year ahead and decide which new freedoms you will give her in the upcoming year.  Your job is to raise her to leave".  Those words were so impactful to me & I took them to heart.


----------



## DannyTS

Cornell said:


> No institution can do this. Life has risks.


Some make it sound like schools used to issue safety guarantee certificates *before* Covid and they can no longer do it now.!


----------



## Cornell

DannyTS said:


> Some make it sound like schools used to issue safety guarantee certificates *before* Covid and they can no longer do it now.!


The certificate would have to be wiped down with an anti-bacterial wipe prior to issuance.


----------



## louisianab

geekette said:


> this was one of those great programs that ended at my school right after I graduated (84).   It was called Vocational Education at my school, really gave some kids a head start right into a career.


Our high school currently has career paths and requires work or volunteering in the field of their choosing. They paid for 50% of my sister's cosmetology degree and counted it as school credit. There are similar paths for health careers, trades, etc.


----------



## bluehende

Cornell said:


> I posted the link as I knew you would clamor for it.  Survey dates:  June 24–30, 2020


the "clamor" was for the year before you know 2019 as I asked.  Instead of  snark maybe you could read the question and assume I can read also.

Or actually discuss the data I showed,  I am sure you understand that a number placed out there without context from the year before is meaningless in the discussion we are having.


----------



## Cornell

bluehende said:


> the "clamor" was for the year before you know 2019 as I asked.  Instead of  snark maybe you could read the question and assume I can read also.
> 
> Or actually discuss the data I showed,  I am sure you understand that a number placed out there without context from the year before is meaningless in the discussion we are having.


My deepest apologies -- your question was not clear to me in your prior post.


----------



## DannyTS

I am not sure the year is that important. Kids go through a lot of transformations at that age and mental health is a big issue. The lack of school can only add to their anxiety and destabilize them. To me this is a much bigger threat to their health and development than Covid.


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> No institution can do this. Life has risks.



Good morning! 

This is not an all or nothing proposition. We *KNOW* C19 will spread in schools. There's no confusion about that any longer, especially after multiple schools have reopened and within days had to close or drastically change their plans to accommodate the reality. This was predicted. Why did they do so anyway? They were "hoping" (as mentioned in several articles in recent weeks) they would be fine, and then reiterated the changes they have made to minimize risk of spread. 

After I read the articles yesterday, I did have to stop and consider why school educators - experts in their field - did not adequately predict and plan for students who wouldn't adhere to the social distancing and other restrictions. For anyone who knows ~15-21 year old students (in America), it should have been obvious that they simply cannot be trusted to abide by the restrictions. (Yes, they're not alone... there are many people who still think they won't get C19 and want to go to bars without masks...and then are surprised when they get sick). But school experts...professionals in their field...still opened schools without masks (Georgia and others). Were they pressured to reopen by their community against their better judgment? I'm sure this will be a topic of discussion for a long time, and hopefully we will learn more about specific schools and their reopening failures in future. At the moment, I think it's an indictment on the ability for schools to properly manage the health and safety of their students during an exceptional time, and I expect (when this is all over) we will simply excuse these failures as it would be difficult for anyone to know how to proceed (which simply means that we will be similarly unprepared for the next pandemic).

Of course life has risks. We take risks every time we go outside. But I won't take extreme risks, and I advocate that others not do so as well. I don't wish anyone contract C19, even if they are only asymptomatic, as we do not yet know the long-term implications of this disease (and some reports on this are troubling).

Now we have proof schools cannot open safely, yet that doesn't seem to matter to some of you. And yes, that's because - as you admit - you think that it's perfectly acceptable for your daughter to take the risk to contract C19 and that risk is less important to you than the ability to go to an in-person school experience. You keep blaming schools for not knowing the plan, closing, teachers not willing to teach in a school, etc. I assume you are also okay with the possibility that had your school opened your daughter may get C19 and pass it on to you at home. There are many immunocompromised parents or family members in high-risk categories, so I assume in those situations you would agree the students should not go to school.

My point has always been that we, as a society, need to lower the spread dramatically so that we can reopen safely. Other countries have done it, and when they experience an outbreak they immediately impose stringent restrictions in order to minimize it in a short time period. Some of you don't believe this is the best way forward (as noted in other threads on TUG) and think we should all be exposed and get it over with...well, that's not a popular solution in the general public (nor among scientists), but I think it influences comments in this thread about schools. 

Have a nice day, everyone! Stay safe. Wash your hands.


----------



## bluehende

COVID-19 and suicide
					

How the pandemic will affect suicide rates is still unknown, but there’s much psychologists can do to mitigate its impact.




					www.apa.org
				




from the article

But it will be a while before COVID-19’s actual impact on the nation’s suicide rate is known, says psychologist Jill Harkavy-Friedman, PhD, vice president of research at the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. “We’re two years away from having data,” she says. And it’s not a given that the pandemic will cause suicide rates to increase, emphasizes Harkavy-Friedman, who is also an associate professor of clinical psychology, in psychiatry, at Columbia University.


“One event can bring stress, but it’s not going to make someone suicidal out of the blue,” she says, explaining that it is typically a combination of biological, psychological, environmental and other factors that renders people vulnerable to suicide. Take the Great Recession of 2008, she points out. “About 4.8 million people lost their jobs, and the suicide rate didn’t skyrocket,” she says. “We’re much more resilient than we give people credit for.”


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> My deepest apologies -- your question was not clear to me in your prior post.



I am confused in this discussion. I do not see why the exact year is relevant (as long as it is recent) or why the data you posted needed more context. 25%+ of 18-24 year olds considering suicide is a huge number, regardless of what the data shows for the previous years. BTW, the two graphs posted are not comparable. You posted 18-24 year olds and older. The other graph is for high school students.


----------



## bluehende

Cornell said:


> My deepest apologies -- your question was not clear to me in your prior post.


Good now we can get down to the discussion.  I have seen 2 reports that I cannot verify through real research.  They say that during the school year therapists see a 3X increase in mental health issues from teens who have trouble with the stress of school.  Of course that is impossible to normalize with a new situation like what we have now.  Do you have any data that shows teen suicide is actually up?


----------



## TravelTime

Since Covid started, there have been many articles about how Covid is affecting mental health. It is a huge problem.


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> I am confused in this discussion. I do not see why the exact year is relevant (as long as it is recent) or why the data you posted needed more context. 25%+ of 18-24 year olds considering suicide is a huge number, regardless of what the data shows for the previous years. BTW, the two graphs posted are not comparable. You posted 18-24 year olds and older. The other graph is for high school students.


If you are blaming the current pandemic for increasing suicides don't you in fact have to show increased suicides.  Teen suicide is a problem.   For a lot of teens the stress of school is the leading symptom.  I am reading that the data is not there as to whether there is an increase.  Again from the article.

For some, the fight against the virus may even result in a sense of solidarity that protects them from thoughts of suicide. “Sometimes in periods of stress, people find strengths in themselves they didn’t know they had,” says Joan Asarnow, PhD, a professor of psychiatry and biobehavioral sciences at the David Geffen School of Medicine at the University of California, Los Angeles. “In World War II, for example, they were anticipating all kinds of problems during the Blitz, but it turned out people for the most part didn’t have any additional mental health symptoms.”


And for some populations, being stuck at home may even be a plus. Children, for example, are being more closely monitored by their parents, which can help prevent suicide. “We’ve actually seen quite a number of kids doing well without school and at home with their parents,” says Asarnow. “It’s not always a negative story.”


----------



## mentalbreak

Drake University sends 14 students home for violating COVID-19 guidelines
		


I guess the guidelines are enforceable rules at Drake.


----------



## TravelTime

bluehende said:


> If you are blaming the current pandemic for increasing suicides don't you in fact have to show increased suicides.  Teen suicide is a problem.   For a lot of teens the stress of school is the leading symptom.  I am reading that the data is not there as to whether there is an increase.  Again from the article.
> 
> For some, the fight against the virus may even result in a sense of solidarity that protects them from thoughts of suicide. “Sometimes in periods of stress, people find strengths in themselves they didn’t know they had,” says Joan Asarnow, PhD, a professor of psychiatry and biobehavioral sciences at the David Geffen School of Medicine at the University of California, Los Angeles. “In World War II, for example, they were anticipating all kinds of problems during the Blitz, but it turned out people for the most part didn’t have any additional mental health symptoms.”
> 
> 
> And for some populations, being stuck at home may even be a plus. Children, for example, are being more closely monitored by their parents, which can help prevent suicide. “We’ve actually seen quite a number of kids doing well without school and at home with their parents,” says Asarnow. “It’s not always a negative story.”



Did @Cornell blame the pandemic for increasing suicides? I took her comment to mean that she was concerned about her daughter's mental health. Many people's mental health is being affected right now. There have been numerous studies already done. I believe I posted some in the past. There has also been an increase in calls to suicide and crisis hotlines. I have been talking about the potential impact on mental health since Covid started even before there was any research supporting it. To me, it was obvious that the pandemic would impact mental health for many reasons. This is not just a physical heath pandemic. It is also a mental health problem.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> This is not just a physical heath pandemic. It is also a mental health problem.



No question about it. But then, we have had a serious mental health problem in America which has gone without sufficient attention for decades, as well.


----------



## DannyTS

I think parents are best positioned to see changes in their children's behavior. It can take months, sometimes years for a mental fragility to translate into a suicide and there are other consequences short of suicide that can be very bad. I hope nobody suggests to wait months or years for a study or claims that a lack of a study is proof there is nothing to see here.


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> Did @Cornell blame the pandemic for increasing suicides? I took her comment to mean that she was concerned about her daughter's mental health. Many people's mental health is being affected right now. There have been numerous studies already done. I believe I posted some in the past. There has also been an increase in calls to suicide and crisis hotlines. I have been talking about the potential impact on mental health since Covid started even before there was any research supporting it. To me, it was obvious that the pandemic would impact mental health for many reasons. This is not just a physical heath pandemic. It is also a mental health problem.


I did not bring up suicides.  When suicide data was put up for 2020 it begged the question what was it in 2019?  I did some actual research and found that the real data I can come up with does not show an increase in suicides or suicidal thoughts in teens.   In fact I have seen OPINIONS that going back to school may in fact hurt the mental health of teens considering the stress involved.    IMHO the data is not close to being conclusive.  But I do question the premise that sending kids back to school is helpful in this one issue.  If you have real data to show one way or the other I would welcome it.

Edited to add questions in my  mind.  

Are suicide rates going up significantly in either adolescents or adults?
Is the stress of no school greater than the stress normally associated with being in school?
How will teens react to the new normal and the stress of covid19?


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> No question about it. But then, we have had a serious mental health problem in America which has gone without sufficient attention for decades, as well.



I agree. It is getting worse with the pandemic and all its implications on people's lives from isolation to deaths to job losses and more.


----------



## TravelTime

bluehende said:


> I did not bring up suicides.  When suicide data was put up for 2020 it begged the question what was it in 2019?  I did some actual research and found that the real data I can come up with does not show an increase in suicides or suicidal thoughts in teens.   In fact I have seen OPINIONS that going back to school may in fact hurt the mental health of teens considering the stress involved.    IMHO the data is not close to being conclusive.  But I do question the premise that sending kids back to school is helpful in this one issue.  If you have real data to show one way or the other I would welcome it.
> 
> Edited to add questions in my  mind.
> 
> Are suicide rates going up significantly in either adolescents or adults?
> Is the stress of no school greater than the stress normally associated with being in school?
> How will teens react to the new normal and the stress of covid19?



I did not see that you posted any 2020 data. It is too soon to get any official data on suicide rates. There is a lag between when it happens and when the data is reported.









						Suicide statistics
					

Learn the latest statistics on suicide. Data on suicide are taken from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Data & Statistics Fatal Injury Report for 2018, as of March 1, 2020. Suicide rates listed are Age-Adjusted Rates.



					afsp.org
				




It sounds like you are trying to prove that Covid is not affecting the mental health of teens. I doubt this is true. You have brought up how Covid is beneficial to teens. I suspect Covid has more negatives than positives for everyone including teens.


----------



## beejaybeeohio

Cornell said:


> See -- here's the issue.  Your definition of "risk" is probably very different than mine.  I consider my child's contracting C19 on the low-risk-of-life spectrum for a 17 year old.  Yes, I'm sure that shocks some of you.



Yeah well, until your child does contract it as my Type 1 grandson did who has no idea where he might have picked it up. If your daughter should get the virus you will be hoping beyond hope that her case is mild with no future repercussions, and heartsick with worry after her positive text until she's out of the woods.

Not shocked you consider her low-risk at contracting the virus, but until you walk in the moccasins of a similar-minded parent/grandparent whose offspring did get it......


----------



## DannyTS

beejaybeeohio said:


> Yeah well until your child does contract it as my Type 1 grandson did.


Speedy recovery to your grandson, I hope he will be very well. 

I am not following though,  if he is diabetic, was he not extra cautious? When did he catch it, did he catch it in school? I thought those at high risk were encouraged to stay home.


----------



## Ken555

beejaybeeohio said:


> Yeah well until your child does contract it as my Type 1 grandson did.



So sorry to hear that. Though everyone’s circumstances are different, this is why we need community adherence to specific guidelines on how to proceed and have everyone follow them. Of course, that’s just not possible in America. 

Until it adversely impacts individuals many will simply think they will be fine. Then they’ll wake up and realize omg what did I do.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SueDonJ

I feel like we're still all living in separate Twilight Zones. Are we all not hearing the same reports? Children, teens and young adults who are perfectly healthy with no underlying health conditions can catch it, they can be asymptomatic carriers of it - in fact they can be asymptomatic and still carry adult-strength viral loads of it, they may suffer from a mysterious co-illness that wreaks havoc on their systems, they may suffer longterm heart-related ailments as a result of it. And that's just preliminary local reporting from studies being done at Boston-area pediatric hospitals since late July when children/teens started leaving the safety of quarantines that began when schools here shut down in March.

I get the push to open schools, honestly. A child's/teen's interaction with peers in both structured and unstructured settings is not an insignificant thing in their development. But I seriously wonder if the students who are having the most difficulty with not being in school are those whose parents are loudly decrying the temporary loss of that social development while downplaying the real risks of COVID-19 to children as well as the greater society.

I don't have children of school age (which I guess some will say disqualifies me from having an opinion.) But if I did I KNOW that my children would not be attending school under the current conditions, and neither would they be hearing me criticize or belittle the opinions of experts who are far more knowledgeable about what we all need to do in order to lower the risks for everyone. Children need positive reinforcement, not negative, even more so during times of crisis.

I do have thirty-something children. Looking back now it's my honest opinion that if they *and everyone else in their peer group* had lost a year of physically walking the halls of a school while the country tried to beat back a worldwide pandemic, it would not have caused the debilitating effects that parents of schoolchildren today are claiming will happen. The key, of course, would be that *every* child suffered the same - but every child would know that all their peers are in the same boat. It's nonsensical to me that during a very real crisis that is not going to go away with magical thinking, when we all should be pulling together, too many parents are teaching their children nothing but, "it's all about you, screw everybody else." This is all only getting worse, not better.


----------



## bogey21

As I posted earlier my Daughter's 3 kids (ages roughly 13, 11 and 8) are currently attending classes at a small Christian school.  I described the protocols the school is following  in an earlier post.  So it looks like I will have a real world situation to follow.  I'll try to post if anything extra ordinary happens...

George


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> I did not see that you posted any 2020 data. It is too soon to get any official data on suicide rates. There is a lag between when it happens and when the data is reported.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suicide statistics
> 
> 
> Learn the latest statistics on suicide. Data on suicide are taken from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Data & Statistics Fatal Injury Report for 2018, as of March 1, 2020. Suicide rates listed are Age-Adjusted Rates.
> 
> 
> 
> afsp.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like you are trying to prove that Covid is not affecting the mental health of teens. I doubt this is true. You have brought up how Covid is beneficial to teens. I suspect Covid has more negatives than positives for everyone including teens.


I was responding to someone else  posting that data not me.  


Where did I say that I am trying to prove that.  I even 
 said with this one specific issue of suicides.  Interesting that you change the subject to something I did not mention and was not talking about and then stated my position.   hmmmm

I will make it easy.  This pandemic is causing a lot of stress and the associated mental issues.  What I do not believe yet (not trying to prove anything}  is that the solution of schools opening is a panacea.  I have seen views lately that starting school will not help this.  It makes sense to me.  School is the number one stress generator for kids under normal conditions.  With the conditions now  the stress of school, the new strange procedures, possibly getting sick, and facing the very real possibility that a teacher could get sick and die could make it worse.
You can continue to pick away at a phrase or a word and place words in my mouth or we can discuss the possibility that if we go back to school under conditions in certain areas of this country that it will not be positive for a lot of kids.  There is a lot of hopeful thinking here that somehow just opening schools will solve all our problems.  Everyone wanted their parties, bars restaurants and refused to wear masks.  Well guess what?  That is why we are where we are.  If we had contained this virus like the rest of the industrialized world did we could be opening schools with little fear.


----------



## TravelTime

Coronavirus clusters have been linked to fraternities, sororities, and off-campus parties.









						Schools Briefing: University Outbreaks and Parental Angst (Published 2020)
					

Coronavirus clusters have been linked to fraternities, sororities, and off-campus parties.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## TravelTime

For anyone who is minimizing the effects of the pandemic on children, read this:



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/08/19/child-abuse-victims-plunge-pandemic/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_virus-childabuse-702pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans
		


Since the beginning of the coronavirus pandemic, advocates and educators have warned that the closures of schools would make it terrifyingly difficult to keep a watchful eye on children who are being abused.

Child abuse reports began to plummet across the country — not because it wasn’t happening, but because teachers, doctors and others had fewer ways of catching it. Now, a new survey of children’s advocacy centers across the country offers some of the clearest data yet on the scope of this gap in child abuse reporting.

The centers, which provide support for families and children as abuse cases move through the justice system, reported serving 40,000 fewer children nationwide between January and June of this year than the same period last year, from 192,367 children in 2019 down to 152,016 this year, a 21 percent drop, according to the National Children’s Alliance, an accrediting body for a network of 900 children’s advocacy centers.....


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> No question about it. But then, we have had a serious mental health problem in America which has gone without sufficient attention for decades, as well.



We think we have it bad. In Australia, there is a 6 to 12 month wait for mental health services.


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> For anyone who is minimizing the effects of the pandemic on children, read this:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/08/19/child-abuse-victims-plunge-pandemic/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_virus-childabuse-702pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans
> 
> 
> 
> Since the beginning of the coronavirus pandemic, advocates and educators have warned that the closures of schools would make it terrifyingly difficult to keep a watchful eye on children who are being abused.
> 
> Child abuse reports began to plummet across the country — not because it wasn’t happening, but because teachers, doctors and others had fewer ways of catching it. Now, a new survey of children’s advocacy centers across the country offers some of the clearest data yet on the scope of this gap in child abuse reporting.
> 
> The centers, which provide support for families and children as abuse cases move through the justice system, reported serving 40,000 fewer children nationwide between January and June of this year than the same period last year, from 192,367 children in 2019 down to 152,016 this year, a 21 percent drop, according to the National Children’s Alliance, an accrediting body for a network of 900 children’s advocacy centers.....


You are probably familiar with Gabriel Fernandez. His teacher , a mandated reporter, seemed to the only adult that noticed and cared about him.


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> For anyone who is minimizing the effects of the pandemic on children, read this


Glad no one here has to read this


----------



## Cornell

SueDonJ said:


> I feel like we're still all living in separate Twilight Zones. Are we all not hearing the same reports? Children, teens and young adults who are perfectly healthy with no underlying health conditions can catch it, they can be asymptomatic carriers of it - in fact they can be asymptomatic and still carry adult-strength viral loads of it, they may suffer from a mysterious co-illness that wreaks havoc on their systems, they may suffer longterm heart-related ailments as a result of it. And that's just preliminary local reporting from studies being done at Boston-area pediatric hospitals since late July when children/teens started leaving the safety of quarantines that began when schools here shut down in March.
> 
> I get the push to open schools, honestly. A child's/teen's interaction with peers in both structured and unstructured settings is not an insignificant thing in their development. But I seriously wonder if the students who are having the most difficulty with not being in school are those whose parents are loudly decrying the temporary loss of that social development while downplaying the real risks of COVID-19 to children as well as the greater society.
> 
> I don't have children of school age (which I guess some will say disqualifies me from having an opinion.) But if I did I KNOW that my children would not be attending school under the current conditions, and neither would they be hearing me criticize or belittle the opinions of experts who are far more knowledgeable about what we all need to do in order to lower the risks for everyone. Children need positive reinforcement, not negative, even more so during times of crisis.
> 
> I do have thirty-something children. Looking back now it's my honest opinion that if they *and everyone else in their peer group* had lost a year of physically walking the halls of a school while the country tried to beat back a worldwide pandemic, it would not have caused the debilitating effects that parents of schoolchildren today are claiming will happen. The key, of course, would be that *every* child suffered the same - but every child would know that all their peers are in the same boat. It's nonsensical to me that during a very real crisis that is not going to go away with magical thinking, when we all should be pulling together, too many parents are teaching their children nothing but, "it's all about you, screw everybody else." This is all only getting worse, not better.


Trust me -- I feel the same way. I often say that I am living in an alternate universe than many.  

I want to add my opinion here - I think many families in Illinois would agree with me that schools are not opening b/c of union pushback and political forces.  

And for today's kids -- Yes, this argument that they all "suffered together" was appropriate last spring when they were all in the boat.  But this school year,  (and yes , I mean "year" -- I feel the writing is on the wall that many kids will not return to school at all this year) when some kids can return to school, and others can't -- or some kids can take an SAT and others can't -- it becomes unequal and unfair.  And I'm not just going to put a smile on my face and "be positive" when I truly feel that my kid (and thousands more) is getting a raw deal.


----------



## TravelTime

Pandemic parents: Why can child-care open in schools that won’t allow classes?

Schools in Montgomery County won’t open for traditional classes in the fall, but hundreds, maybe thousands, of elementary schoolchildren may be taking part in “distance learning hubs” in the same buildings that were closed because of the coronavirus pandemic.

In programs run by child-care providers long based in county schools, students would take their Chromebooks to school daily and join small cohorts of their peers — akin to parent-organized “pandemic pods” that are popular across the country. Children ages 5 to 12 would follow online learning schedules and participate in activities during free time.

But while the idea may sound like a godsend to working parents, it is also sparking pointed questions about equity, health risks and priorities in the 166,500-student school system.

Above all, many ask: How can schools be safe for children in child-care if they are too risky for regular teaching and learning?.......

Read more here:


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/pandemic-parents-why-can-child-care-open-in-schools-that-wont-allow-classes/2020/08/18/fad0243c-dc9c-11ea-809e-b8be57ba616e_story.html?hpid=hp_local1-8-12_school-child-care-1055am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans


----------



## Cornell

Similarly , this was announced in our high school district yesterday & families are pissed off.  This just doesn't help the "keep schools closed! crowd" at all. 

_*We’ve created our innovative Remote Learning Lab to support your child’s online learning in a safe and nurturing environment during the Covid-19 era.
*_
*Your child will be placed in an age appropriate setting with their peers to support social-emotional well-being, while being supervised throughout the day by an expert Learning Coach who will be available to help with any issues that arise with their academics. In addition to the learning support in our classrooms, we will also organize fun brain-break activities throughout the day as well as outdoor time and a lunch break. The small group sizes of no more than 15 students in large classrooms will allow for social distancing while still getting some much needed socialization and support. Don’t struggle with a plan for student supervision, just leave it up to us!

Tuition Rates*
$249/week - 5-day rate (M-F)
$165/week - 3-day rate (M/W/F, pending space availability)
$110/week - 2-day rate (T/TH, pending space availability)
$75/week - early arrival fee
$100/week - late pick-up fee


This easily can top $1000 per month per child per family.  Imagine if you have more than one child.  This "Learning Lab" is located in one of the empty schools that are "too unsafe" to actually hold "school" in.  

The instructors*:  Our learning coaches are primarily D214 employees who are either certified substitute teachers within the district, or employed as Community Education instructors *
So apparently it's safe for substitute teachers to be in this setting but not "regular teachers".  Guess which ones are union vs not?

And the kicker -- THERE IS ZERO FINANCIAL AID FOR THOSE WITH NEED, even though our school district is 20% low income.  But if you are a District 214 employee -- you get a discount!








						Remote Learning Lab — District 214 Community Education
					






					www.ce.d214.org


----------



## Brett

yesterday in the Wall Street Journal


----------



## Cornell

Also from the WSJ

_*The UFT wants mandatory antibody or Covid-19 tests for all staff and students entering buildings before they reopen, and wants union representatives to be allowed to check each school for adherence to safety procedures, sufficient personal protective equipment and cleaning supplies. The union says any school that doesn’t meet its criteria must rely on remote learning. *_









						New York Teachers Union Threatens Strike if Schools Reopen Without Safety Measures
					

The president of the New York City teachers union said that if the union doesn’t believe a school is safe, it will take job actions rather than let staff enter.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## DannyTS

SueDonJ said:


> I feel like we're still all living in separate Twilight Zones. *Are we all not hearing the same reports*? Children, teens and young adults who are perfectly healthy with no underlying health conditions can catch it, they can be asymptomatic carriers of it - in fact they can be asymptomatic and still carry adult-strength viral loads of it, they may suffer from a mysterious co-illness that wreaks havoc on their systems, they may suffer longterm heart-related ailments as a result of it. And that's just preliminary local reporting from studies being done at Boston-area pediatric hospitals since late July when children/teens started leaving the safety of quarantines that began when schools here shut down in March.
> 
> I get the push to open schools, honestly. A child's/teen's interaction with peers in both structured and unstructured settings is not an insignificant thing in their development. But I seriously wonder if the students who are having the most difficulty with not being in school are those whose parents are loudly decrying the temporary loss of that social development while downplaying the real risks of COVID-19 to children as well as the greater society.
> 
> *I don't have children of school age (which I guess some will say disqualifies me from having an opinion.) *But if I did I KNOW that my children would not be attending school under the current conditions, and neither would they be hearing me criticize or belittle the opinions of experts who are far more knowledgeable about what we all need to do in order to lower the risks for everyone. *Children need positive reinforcement, not negative, even more so during times of crisis.*
> 
> I do have thirty-something children. Looking back now it's my honest opinion that if they *and everyone else in their peer group* had lost a year of physically walking the halls of a school while the country tried to beat back a worldwide pandemic, it would not have caused the debilitating effects that parents of schoolchildren today are claiming will happen. The key, of course, would be that *every* child suffered the same - but every child would know that all their peers are in the same boat. It's nonsensical to me that during a very real crisis that is not going to go away with magical thinking, when we all should be pulling together, too many parents are teaching their children nothing but, "it's all about you, screw everybody else." This is all only getting worse, not better.




-*Are we all not hearing the same reports? * No, we are not hearing the same reports because I have read yours but there are many other reports coming from Europe that have been virtually ignored by the media. As long as nobody in a household is at risk, kids can go to school and if infected, the chances of severe effects are *extremely low and* *not unlike other risks we take every day*. The same for the teachers under a certain age. Part of the problem I have with the reports you mention is that they do not acknowledge that kids have been going to the hospitals since forever, otherwise we would not even need pediatric hospitals. I also find far fetched  articles talking about long term consequences for a virus we have had for few months. They also forget to mention that those that are very sick from flu also suffer a lot of long term consequences. There is no baseline in these discussions.

- *I don't have children of school age (which I guess some will say disqualifies me from having an opinion.)* It does not disqualify you or anyone else from having an opinion, sometimes those not directly involved may  make better decisions. But probably you have, like anyone else, either friends or close relatives who are parents or teachers (or both) and I am sure you have those in mind as well.

- *Children need positive reinforcement, not negative, even more so during times of crisis.*
We all agree about that, it is part of why it is not working for some.
A : both parents are essential workers. I think it is obvious for everyone that their last few months have been pretty bad, they either had to pay a fortune for help or lose income if one parent stayed home.
B one parent essential worker, one working  from home or both working from home. They are working from home for God's sake they are not on vacation. How  easy is to keep a positive posture when say their  boss, their clients and associates call at the same time when their children want A, B, C... Z? How do you prioritize and how is it fair to any of them?

How do  essential workers feel about teachers saying it is dangerous for them? How come the teachers' union never advocated for the essential workers to stay home, even when we though the virus was a lot deadlier than we know today? They comment on all kind of things, why not a word about that?


----------



## Country Roads

TravelTime said:


> Pandemic parents: Why can child-care open in schools that won’t allow classes?
> 
> Schools in Montgomery County won’t open for traditional classes in the fall, but hundreds, maybe thousands, of elementary schoolchildren may be taking part in “distance learning hubs” in the same buildings that were closed because of the coronavirus pandemic.
> 
> In programs run by child-care providers long based in county schools, students would take their Chromebooks to school daily and join small cohorts of their peers — akin to parent-organized “pandemic pods” that are popular across the country. Children ages 5 to 12 would follow online learning schedules and participate in activities during free time.
> 
> But while the idea may sound like a godsend to working parents, it is also sparking pointed questions about equity, health risks and priorities in the 166,500-student school system.
> 
> Above all, many ask: How can schools be safe for children in child-care if they are too risky for regular teaching and learning?.......
> 
> Read more here:
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/pandemic-parents-why-can-child-care-open-in-schools-that-wont-allow-classes/2020/08/18/fad0243c-dc9c-11ea-809e-b8be57ba616e_story.html?hpid=hp_local1-8-12_school-child-care-1055am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans



Paywall


----------



## Cornell

DannyTS said:


> How do essential workers feel about teachers saying it is dangerous for them? How come the teachers' union never advocated for the essential workers to stay home, even when we though the virus was a lot deadlier than we know today? They comment on all kind of things, why not a word about that?


My daughter and her friends are all working in public facing jobs:  meal servers at retirement / assisted living facilities, grocery stores, restaurants, etc, so it's hard for many of them to reconcile why their teachers can't come into the classroom to work ,when they are all doing "essential work".


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> My daughter and her friends are all working in public facing jobs:  meal servers at retirement / assisted living facilities, grocery stores, restaurants, etc, so it's hard for many of them to reconcile why their teachers can't come into the classroom to work ,when they are all doing "essential work".



That's because teachers are non-essential.


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> That's because teachers are non-essential.


My kid is  the definition of a "hustler" -- she put an ad on one of the local facebook groups offering to tutor middle school students.  She undercut the hourly rate that the local teachers are charging and already has secured 3 jobs.


----------



## SueDonJ

DannyTS said:


> -*Are we all not hearing the same reports? * No, we are not hearing the same reports because I have read yours but there are many other reports coming from Europe that have been virtually ignored by the media. As long as nobody in a household is at risk, kids can go to school and if infected, the chances of severe effects are *extremely low and* *not unlike other risks we take every day*. The same for the teachers under a certain age. Part of the problem I have with the reports you mention is that they do not acknowledge that kids have been going to the hospitals since forever, otherwise we would not even need pediatric hospitals. I also find far fetched  articles talking about long term consequences for a virus we have had for few months. They also forget to mention that those that are very sick from flu also suffer a lot of long term consequences. There is no baseline in these discussions.


I don't understand the comment about children having been going to pediatric hospitals forever, what that has to do with anything? The reports I'm reading have made the point that when everything closed in March pretty much every child stayed home for months so it may be more that, and not so much a higher natural immunity, that skewed the risk factor for children. Now that quarantines are relaxing and more children are contracting the virus, whether they remain asymptomatic or develop symptoms, the experts are able to correct the data and their findings.

As for the virus' expected longterm effects in children, experts are saying that now that issues are being seen in children which were previously only seen in adults, it appears that the suppositions they've attributed to cases in adults can be conservatively applied to children. They're the scientists, I'm not, so if enough of them tell me that their scientific study lends credence to theory, I'm inclined to believe them rather than look for ways to discredit them.

The flu? Really? We're not past yet the ridiculousness of equating COVID-19 with the flu? Besides the fact that *no one* is trying to say that the flu doesn't cause longterm effects in some patients, the flu is a known risk for which vaccines, comprehensive treatment, tracing/tracking protocols and efficient warning systems have all been developed and are utilized routinely. You're absolutely correct that there is, "no baseline in these discussions" - because COVID-19 is a new virus for which none of the normal responses to a pandemic are being utilized in this country and no data ever existed.



DannyTS said:


> ... - *I don't have children of school age (which I guess some will say disqualifies me from having an opinion.)* It does not disqualify you or anyone else from having an opinion, sometimes those not directly involved may  make better decisions. But probably you have, like anyone else, either friends or close relatives who are parents or teachers (or both) and I am sure you have those in mind as well.



My daughter's a teacher but she's due to have her second child in September so will be out on maternity leave until January anyway. School here normally starts after Labor Day and I believe the opening in her district has been delayed at least two weeks after which a hybrid in-school and virtual schedule will start. If there isn't a backslide to another shutdown - which is a very real possibility looking at what's happening all over the country - then come January my daughter and her husband (an essential worker at a medical staffing firm) will have to face some hard decisions about both the risks in her job and the daycare issues you mention below.



DannyTS said:


> ... - *Children need positive reinforcement, not negative, even more so during times of crisis.*
> We all agree about that, it is part of why it is not working for some.
> A : both parents are essential workers. I think it is obvious for everyone that their last few months have been pretty bad, they either had to pay a fortune for help or lose income if one parent stayed home.
> B one parent essential worker, one working  from home or both working from home. They are working from home for God's sake they are not on vacation. How  easy is to keep a positive posture when say their  boss, their clients and associates call at the same time when their children want A, B, C... Z? How do you prioritize and how is it fair to any of them.
> 
> How do those essential workers feel about teachers saying it is dangerous for them? How come the teachers' union never advocated for the essential workers to stay home, even when we though the virus was a lot deadlier than we know today? They comment on all kind of things, why not a word about that?



I've written here before about my son and his wife - he's a nursing home administrator, she's an RN who's assigned to a COVID-19 unit in a Boston-area hospital. They lost their daycare for their 4YO daughter and 1YO son early on for a period of months during which Don and I alternated taking care of the kids with their other grandmother. At the beginning of July their daycare facility re-opened and so far, so good although it's a much more confining environment with masks and social distancing, but it's understood that it can and will shut down again if need be. They're fortunate because you're right, it is a huge problem for many that don't have access to that easy a solution, which I see as yet one more reason why we should be looking for more creative ways and more resources to provide care for children *for the duration* of the pandemic, care that doesn't involve forcing their already-overworked parents to provide their education OR forcing them to congregate in buildings that may as well be festering petri-dishes.

It's interesting how you ask what do the medical workers and teachers feel about each other. I don't know what it's like elsewhere but here in the northeast where there's a high concentration of medical facilities the nursing unions are generally supported by teachers, ironworkers, etc and vice versa. And then there's the little microcosm that's in my own family:

- After having seen what they've seen in their medical facilities my son and his wife think the teachers are correct that it's bonkers to send kids to school considering that the response to the virus in this country has been "so pisspoor" (their words, cleaned up a little) that they STILL do not have enough PPE or testing supplies for residents/patients and staff in their own facilities. They don't begrudge the teachers union their right to mobilize and stand strong for safer conditions for everyone who will be in school buildings, and they certainly don't expect anyone outside of their professions to assume the risks that should only be inherent in theirs. Do firefighters ever say that carpenters should grab a hose? Do police expect waitresses to apprehend murderers? No! Medical workers know the risks in their own professions and don't expect untrained others to do what they do!

- I and Don both think my son and his wife are heroes doing brave duty and we are worried sick over their immediate health but also over whatever PTSD-like issues they'll be forced to confront when the crisis is over and they have a minute to think about all they've seen. My daughter and her husband feel the exact same way, and in fact we do advocate for the medical professionals in whatever ways we can: community-sponsored events which have been held to thank and support medical workers, fund-raising to provide basic needs of medical professionals and their families, sewing mask after mask after mask after mask and donating them to local facilities, being a shoulder to cry on. It's not nearly as much as what they're doing for others, but they know they are not alone.


----------



## PigsDad

TravelTime said:


> Coronavirus clusters have been linked to fraternities, sororities, and off-campus parties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Schools Briefing: University Outbreaks and Parental Angst (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> Coronavirus clusters have been linked to fraternities, sororities, and off-campus parties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


I find it kind of sad that the schools' responses to these off-campus outbreaks in fraternities, sororities, etc. is almost always to move to more virtual classes.  What does that accomplish?  The students will end up spending more time at (you guessed it) the fraternities, sororities, etc.   At least on campus they are wearing masks.  

So far, I like what my daughter's small, private university is doing.  They are requiring masks to be worn everywhere on campus.  If you are outside of your car or outside of your dorm room, you are expected to wear a mask.  My daughter is a student-athlete, and they are being held to an even higher standard.  They have been instructed to try and limit interactions to only those in their "pods".  Initially, their pod it just 2-4 teammates, then after an interval of time (2+ weeks), a couple pods can be combined to form a larger pod to allow training/practicing together.  There are no athletic competitions this fall, but practices and training can take place.  All athletes at the school have been warned about attending off-campus parties.  Failure to follow these rules can result to athletic suspensions, missing a full season of play, and up to losing their scholarship for repeat offenders.

Kurt


----------



## SueDonJ

Cornell said:


> My daughter and her friends are all working in public facing jobs:  meal servers at retirement / assisted living facilities, grocery stores, restaurants, etc, so it's hard for many of them to reconcile why their teachers can't come into the classroom to work ,when they are all doing "essential work".



Adults in those positions have made the choice for themselves, though admittedly the choice for them is many times no choice at all between continuing to work or going broke and ending up homeless. Your daughter is a minor so presumably you have weighed the risks and made the determination that she can continue working at her public-facing job. Have you also enforced the divisive notion for her that teachers are shirking their duties while she is not?

There are plenty of teachers who, when the district makes the determination that schools will open, are marching in ready and willing to teach despite the knowledge that classrooms are and always have been de facto germ factories for every ailment under the sun. It's not unreasonable to me that they're advocating, prior to any of those determinations being made, that all options be on the table. Some districts are all-virtual with teachers working from home, some all-virtual with teachers in class and students at home, some hybrid with students at-school and virtual ... all the way through the spectrum to these idiot schools we've all seen that opened with absolutely zero protections and had to shut down again because they were idiots.

I don't understand bashing the teachers. It's just one more way that people are choosing to not come together and forge solutions that work for the greater good. It's so discouraging.


----------



## Cornell

SueDonJ said:


> Adults in those positions have made the choice for themselves, though admittedly the choice for them is many times no choice at all between continuing to work or going broke and ending up homeless. Your daughter is a minor so presumably you have weighed the risks and made the determination that she can continue working at her public-facing job. Have you also enforced the divisive notion for her that teachers are shirking their duties while she is not?
> 
> There are plenty of teachers who, when the district makes the determination that schools will open, are marching in ready and willing to teach despite the knowledge that classrooms are and always have been de facto germ factories for every ailment under the sun. It's not unreasonable to me that they're advocating, prior to any of those determinations being made, that all options be on the table. Some districts are all-virtual with teachers working from home, some all-virtual with teachers in class and students at home, some hybrid with students at-school and virtual ... all the way through the spectrum to these idiot schools we've all seen that opened with absolutely zero protections and had to shut down again because they were idiots.
> 
> I don't understand bashing the teachers. It's just one more way that people are choosing to not come together and forge solutions that work for the greater good. It's so discouraging.


I'm not bashing all teachers.  Far from it.  But I don't value someone *just because *of their occupation.  

It's hard for me to relate to teachers that I have seen at my local school board meetings that refuse to teach remotely from EMPTY CLASSROOMS.

I have attended every single one of my school district board meetings since May and I have yet to hear a single teacher in front of the board saying "we need to open up the school", but there have been plenty there advocating to keep the schools closed.  

It's pretty hard to take the "keep schools closed!" position seriously when my local school is OPEN, for paid "daycare" operated by substitute teachers.

And your judgement that MY opinions are divisive is "interesting" -- has it occurred to you that the union teachers themselves are divisive?


----------



## Cornell

SueDonJ said:


> Adults in those positions have made the choice for themselves, though admittedly the choice for them is many times no choice at all between continuing to work or going broke and ending up homeless. Your daughter is a minor so presumably you have weighed the risks and made the determination that she can continue working at her public-facing job. Have you also enforced the divisive notion for her that teachers are shirking their duties while she is not?
> 
> There are plenty of teachers who, when the district makes the determination that schools will open, are marching in ready and willing to teach despite the knowledge that classrooms are and always have been de facto germ factories for every ailment under the sun. It's not unreasonable to me that they're advocating, prior to any of those determinations being made, that all options be on the table. Some districts are all-virtual with teachers working from home, some all-virtual with teachers in class and students at home, some hybrid with students at-school and virtual ... all the way through the spectrum to these idiot schools we've all seen that opened with absolutely zero protections and had to shut down again because they were idiots.
> 
> I don't understand bashing the teachers. It's just one more way that people are choosing to not come together and forge solutions that work for the greater good. It's so discouraging.


How is this not divisive?  












						Teachers Are Making Their Own Gravestones and Coffins to Protest Going Back to School
					

“Children cannot focus on schoolwork if their family members or teachers are in the hospital or dying,” said one kindergarten teacher.




					www.vice.com


----------



## Glynda

[QUOTE="Cornell, post: 2494441, member: 89239...

And for today's kids -- Yes, this argument that they all "suffered together" was appropriate last spring when they were all in the boat.  But this school year,  (and yes , I mean "year" -- I feel the writing is on the wall that many kids will not return to school at all this year) when some kids can return to school, and others can't -- or some kids can take an SAT and others can't -- it becomes unequal and unfair.  And I'm not just going to put a smile on my face and "be positive" when I truly feel that my kid (and thousands more) is getting a raw deal.
[/QUOTE]

It’s a real conundrum.  Our morning paper said that 800 students are still missing since closing back in the Spring. Another article said that $73,000 worth of tech devices are missing.


----------



## rapmarks

My son who lives in Massachusetts says that a lot of teachers do not want to do in person school. He also said they are meeting at each grade level to determine what students did not learn last year and revamping curriculum to reteach that and determine what is must important to be taught if this year’s curriculum


----------



## TUGBrian




----------



## jabberwocky

Glynda said:


> It’s a real conundrum.  Our morning paper said that 800 students are still missing since closing back in the Spring. Another article said that $73,000 worth of tech devices are missing.


I just talked to my BIL who is a teacher for a major public school district in Southern California. He is teaching a fully remote middle school class. Kids in his school come from pretty normal middle class families - mix of working class and professional parents. Definitely not a ghetto nor Beverly Hills.  

His opinion: online teaching is going to be a disaster for kids. He is lucky if he has over 50% online attendance from those registered in the class. Kids aren’t doing homework. Completely different experience than what he is used to. He figures this year will be another lost year, but he’s afraid to say anything publicly because it goes against the union position.


----------



## Cornell

Detroit teachers authorize strike over safety fears
					

Detroit Public Schools Community District officials tweeted on Wednesday that teachers are not required to teach in person



					www.detroitnews.com


----------



## Ken555

Cornell said:


> I have attended every single one of my school district board meetings since May and I have yet to hear a single teacher in front of the board saying "we need to open up the school", but there have been plenty there advocating to keep the schools closed.



I suspect the teachers in favor of opening are staying quiet (and may not even attend those meetings) for a number of reasons.


----------



## Cornell

Ken555 said:


> I suspect the teachers in favor of opening are staying quiet (and may not even attend those meetings) for a number of reasons.


Completely agree with you -- so we have found common ground Ken!  

I have never been in a union , so it's hard for me to understand the dynamics.  I'm sure the pressures of that are part of it. 

Attending all of these SB meetings this summer has been really interesting and I have learned a lot along the way.


----------



## Cornell

jabberwocky said:


> I just talked to my BIL who is a teacher for a major public school district in Southern California. He is teaching a fully remote middle school class. Kids in his school come from pretty normal middle class families - mix of working class and professional parents. Definitely not a ghetto nor Beverly Hills.
> 
> His opinion: online teaching is going to be a disaster for kids. He is lucky if he has over 50% online attendance from those registered in the class. Kids aren’t doing homework. Completely different experience than what he is used to. He figures this year will be another lost year, but he’s afraid to say anything publicly because it goes against the union position.


Even though my own daughter is "doing her own thing" this year, she's still still hearing from all her friends that are at the "regular" high school.  The students have learned that they can cut class and get away with it by saying their internet is down.  This is week #1.


----------



## Glynda

jabberwocky said:


> I just talked to my BIL who is a teacher for a major public school district in Southern California. He is teaching a fully remote middle school class. Kids in his school come from pretty normal middle class families - mix of working class and professional parents. Definitely not a ghetto nor Beverly Hills.
> 
> His opinion: online teaching is going to be a disaster for kids. He is lucky if he has over 50% online attendance from those registered in the class. Kids aren’t doing homework. Completely different experience than what he is used to. He figures this year will be another lost year, but he’s afraid to say anything publicly because it goes against the union position.



That's a shame.  I thought the union was supposed to work_ for _him.


----------



## jabberwocky

Glynda said:


> That's a shame.  I thought the union was supposed to work_ for _him.


I agree. Not all voices are being heard. He’s been pro-union and was even the elected union rep for their school several years ago. This is making him quite bitter as he’s the kind of guy that really cares about the kids first.


----------



## DannyTS

SueDonJ said:


> I don't understand the comment about children having been going to pediatric hospitals forever, what that has to do with anything? The reports I'm reading have made the point that when everything closed in March pretty much every child stayed home for months so it may be more that, and not so much a higher natural immunity, that skewed the risk factor for children. Now that quarantines are relaxing and more children are contracting the virus, whether they remain asymptomatic or develop symptoms, the experts are able to correct the data and their findings.
> 
> As for the virus' expected longterm effects in children, experts are saying that now that issues are being seen in children which were previously only seen in adults, it appears that the suppositions they've attributed to cases in adults can be conservatively applied to children. They're the scientists, I'm not, so if enough of them tell me that their scientific study lends credence to theory, I'm inclined to believe them rather than look for ways to discredit them.
> 
> The flu? Really? We're not past yet the ridiculousness of equating COVID-19 with the flu? Besides the fact that *no one* is trying to say that the flu doesn't cause longterm effects in some patients, the flu is a known risk for which vaccines, comprehensive treatment, tracing/tracking protocols and efficient warning systems have all been developed and are utilized routinely. You're absolutely correct that there is, "no baseline in these discussions" - because COVID-19 is a new virus for which none of the normal responses to a pandemic are being utilized in this country and no data ever existed.
> 
> 
> 
> My daughter's a teacher but she's due to have her second child in September so will be out on maternity leave until January anyway. School here normally starts after Labor Day and I believe the opening in her district has been delayed at least two weeks after which a hybrid in-school and virtual schedule will start. If there isn't a backslide to another shutdown - which is a very real possibility looking at what's happening all over the country - then come January my daughter and her husband (an essential worker at a medical staffing firm) will have to face some hard decisions about both the risks in her job and the daycare issues you mention below.
> 
> 
> 
> I've written here before about my son and his wife - he's a nursing home administrator, she's an RN who's assigned to a COVID-19 unit in a Boston-area hospital. They lost their daycare for their 4YO daughter and 1YO son early on for a period of months during which Don and I alternated taking care of the kids with their other grandmother. At the beginning of July their daycare facility re-opened and so far, so good although it's a much more confining environment with masks and social distancing, but it's understood that it can and will shut down again if need be. They're fortunate because you're right, it is a huge problem for many that don't have access to that easy a solution, which I see as yet one more reason why we should be looking for more creative ways and more resources to provide care for children *for the duration* of the pandemic, care that doesn't involve forcing their already-overworked parents to provide their education OR forcing them to congregate in buildings that may as well be festering petri-dishes.
> 
> It's interesting how you ask what do the medical workers and teachers feel about each other. I don't know what it's like elsewhere but here in the northeast where there's a high concentration of medical facilities the nursing unions are generally supported by teachers, ironworkers, etc and vice versa. And then there's the little microcosm that's in my own family:
> 
> - After having seen what they've seen in their medical facilities my son and his wife think the teachers are correct that it's bonkers to send kids to school considering that the response to the virus in this country has been "so pisspoor" (their words, cleaned up a little) that they STILL do not have enough PPE or testing supplies for residents/patients and staff in their own facilities. They don't begrudge the teachers union their right to mobilize and stand strong for safer conditions for everyone who will be in school buildings, and they certainly don't expect anyone outside of their professions to assume the risks that should only be inherent in theirs. Do firefighters ever say that carpenters should grab a hose? Do police expect waitresses to apprehend murderers? No! Medical workers know the risks in their own professions and don't expect untrained others to do what they do!
> 
> - I and Don both think my son and his wife are heroes doing brave duty and we are worried sick over their immediate health but also over whatever PTSD-like issues they'll be forced to confront when the crisis is over and they have a minute to think about all they've seen. My daughter and her husband feel the exact same way, and in fact we do advocate for the medical professionals in whatever ways we can: community-sponsored events which have been held to thank and support medical workers, fund-raising to provide basic needs of medical professionals and their families, sewing mask after mask after mask after mask and donating them to local facilities, being a shoulder to cry on. It's not nearly as much as what they're doing for others, but they know they are not alone.



You seem to equate what the members and what the unions say. You can read the post #1235 if you want anecdotal evidence that it might not be true.

CDC said the mortality rate was  0.26-0.4% (best estimates 2 different times). You can choose your number from this article but you will come to the same conclusion, a bad year of flu will have a similar mortality rate. Since CDC is the one who estimates the flu mortality rate every year, for consistency I will listen to them and not to others.









						Fact check: CDC's estimates COVID-19 death rate around 0.26%, doesn't confirm it
					

Current CDC estimates put the "best estimate" for COVID-19 at 0.26%. The claim that CDC confirmed the coronavirus death rate is partly false.



					www.usatoday.com
				





Yes, we also need a baseline when it comes to kids

"To help decision making we have compiled information for parents, teachers, clinicians, and policy makers grappling with this quandary. We examined mortality data for 0-19 year olds, showing that across France, Germany, Italy, Korea, Spain, the United Kingdom, and the United States there were 44 deaths from covid-19 in 0-19 year olds (total population 135 691 226) up to 19 May 2020.34 Over a normal three month period, in *these countries*, published Global Burden of Disease *data estimate that more than 13 000 deaths would be expected from all causes in this age group, including over 1000 from unintentional injury and 308 from lower respiratory tract infection including influenza*.5 *Covid-19, by this estimate, was responsible for about 0.333% of deaths of 0-19 year olds*. Results were similar for each country. We are regularly updating a data table including deaths by age categories and country, and we welcome feedback (https://tinyurl.com/child-covid; this table and fuller details also in press6)."









						Risks to children during the covid-19 pandemic: some essential epidemiology
					

Difficult and varying decisions are being made worldwide about ways to protect children from covid-19. Green warns of the dangers of scarring a generation through curtailment of child protection systems during the pandemic.1  Given multiple unknowns, we think that caution from parents and carers...




					www.bmj.com
				






So I will turn back and ask: are we not reading the same reports?


----------



## DannyTS

SueDonJ said:


> I've written here before about my son and his wife - he's a nursing home administrator, she's an RN who's assigned to a COVID-19 unit in a Boston-area hospital. *They lost their daycare for their 4YO daughter and 1YO son early on for a period of months during which Don and I alternated taking care of the kids with their other grandmother. *At the beginning of July their daycare facility re-opened and so far, so good although it's a much more confining environment with masks and social distancing, but it's understood that it can and will shut down again if need be. They're fortunate because you're right, it is a huge problem for many that don't have access to that easy a solution, which I see as yet one more reason why we should be looking for more creative ways and more resources to provide care for children *for the duration* of the pandemic, care that doesn't involve forcing their already-overworked parents to provide their education OR forcing them to congregate in buildings that may as well be festering petri-dishes.


I think you are describing something that is not atypical. Desperate times call for desperate measures and the essential workers have to put their own senior family members at risk. If they get infected, 1, 2 or even  4 grand parents plus other family members can catch the virus. I am wondering how many people died this way.


----------



## TravelTime

Most people who are advocating for online school are probably thinking that this is just one year out of a student’s life. However, there are many experts saying covid may never go away and we might need to be prepared for annual outbreaks, even if there is a vaccine. If so, then online school could become permanent for this generation of students.


----------



## TravelTime

...Students who said they did not adapt well to remote learning also experienced higher levels of anxiety and depression compared to other subgroups, the report said....

Read more here: https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article245111930.html?#storylink=cpy



			https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article245111930.html?


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> Most people who are advocating for online school are probably thinking that this is just one year out of a student’s life. However, there are many experts saying covid may never go away and we might need to be prepared for annual outbreaks, even if there is a vaccine. If so, then online school could become permanent for this generation of students.



There is a huge difference between an initial year or so of a major change due to health concerns, and a long term plan of action. Those who believe online education is the smart overall decision does not mean those same people believe online is the way for the future. As seems to be so frequent on TUG, extreme assumptions are made and then assigned to others when in reality most of those people will probably have a different answer to a different question...such as this issue.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS

this is another study about the consequences that the Covid environment has on mental health

*CDC Details COVID-19's Massive Mental Health Impact*










						CDC Details COVID-19's Massive Mental Health Impact
					

Young adults, people of color, essential workers, and adult caregivers particularly affected




					www.medpagetoday.com


----------



## DannyTS

@SueDonJ  This is a poll showing people think the number of deaths for those under 24 is *40 times higher* than the real one. So I guess not everyone is hearing the same reports. 









*They Blinded Us from Science | Franklin Templeton*
Our Fixed Income CIO Sonal Desai unveils the first insights from the new Franklin Templeton–Gallup research project on the behavioral response to COVID-19.
us.beyondbullsandbears.com









						They Blinded Us from Science | Franklin Templeton
					

Our Fixed Income CIO Sonal Desai unveils the first insights from the new Franklin Templeton–Gallup research project on the behavioral response to COVID-19.



					us.beyondbullsandbears.com


----------



## mentalbreak

Absolutely unscientific, but I golfed with a funeral director last night. She was saying that they are seeing a huge increase in suicides in the last few months. She had 7 suicides in the last week. I asked if it was mostly a specific demographic, and she said yes - men age 30 to 55.


----------



## TravelTime

This is not a surprise.









						Why The Coronavirus is Triggering Mental Health Issues
					

This is not just about physical health! I think the damage from the coronavirus to mental health will be worse than the virus itself. Everyone is experiencing the issues below but only a small percentage of the population will get sick enough to warrant serious medical care.




					tugbbs.com
				




It is interesting no one commented on that post. I think mental health is being affected more than physical health.


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> This is not a surprise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why The Coronavirus is Triggering Mental Health Issues
> 
> 
> This is not just about physical health! I think the damage from the coronavirus to mental health will be worse than the virus itself. Everyone is experiencing the issues below but only a small percentage of the population will get sick enough to warrant serious medical care.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is interesting no one commented on that post. I think mental health is being affected more than physical health.


Of course it is.


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> How is this not divisive?  View attachment 25145
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers Are Making Their Own Gravestones and Coffins to Protest Going Back to School
> 
> 
> “Children cannot focus on schoolwork if their family members or teachers are in the hospital or dying,” said one kindergarten teacher.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vice.com



Teachers are providing quotes that are melodrama like this one: “Children cannot focus on schoolwork if their family members or teachers are in the hospital or dying,” Brooklyn kindergarten teacher Frankie Cook told the New York Post.

I would not want my kids to be taught by teachers like this. They are not focusing on the facts at all. No wonder the USA has fallen behind educationally.


----------



## Brett

"He has a cough. He’s running a fever. 
Oklahoma school superintendent is the first in the district to test positive for COVID 19 after he's been in every single classroom greeting students.
*https://kfor.com/health/coronavirus/coyle-public-schools-moving-to-virtual-learning-after-superintendent-tests-positive*


----------



## Cornell

Public Safety Announcement: Surge in Overdose and Suicide Deaths Review First 6 Months of 2020





__





						DuPage County IL
					

DuPage County IL Government Website with information about County Board officials, Elected Officials, 18th Judicial Circuit Court Information,  Property Tax Information, and Departments for Community Services, Homeland Security, Public Works, Stormwater, DOT, Convalescent Center, Supervisor of...




					www.dupageco.org


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> Public Safety Announcement: Surge in Overdose and Suicide Deaths Review First 6 Months of 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DuPage County IL
> 
> 
> DuPage County IL Government Website with information about County Board officials, Elected Officials, 18th Judicial Circuit Court Information,  Property Tax Information, and Departments for Community Services, Homeland Security, Public Works, Stormwater, DOT, Convalescent Center, Supervisor of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dupageco.org



Makes sense. Depression and anxiety are way up so suicides and overdoses usually follow. I still can’t believe anyone does not get this.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> I still can’t believe anyone does not get this.



Sorry, who doesn't get it? I think all of us here recognize this is a serious issue.


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> Sorry, who doesn't get it? I think all of us here recognize this is a serious issue.



I threw that phrase in to see who would reply. It was bait.


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> Makes sense. Depression and anxiety are way up so suicides and overdoses usually follow. I still can’t believe anyone does not get this.


Curious who are these people you speak of?????

No one anywhere at any time has said this.  You are very good at projecting all kinds of evil thoughts on people you cannot identify.  It is a classic straw man argument.

Let me try for the 10th time

No one wants schools closed
No one denies that this pandemic is hard on peoples mental health


Now please please please understand the nuance

All schools are not in a position to open fully.  Please again note that nowhere did I say all schools should stay closed.
Schools opening at this point will be stressful for a lot of kids and just for you I will add it will be GOOD , again will be GOOD. for a lot of kids.  See what I did.  
Teachers and staff have their right to either be concerned for their safety or not.  Neither view is evil.  Again see what I did there.  


Opening schools will not magically make all this stress go away.  The virus, the fear, the stress, and the mental issues will all still be here.  

I have chronicled in the past my youngest sons battle with depression during adolescence.  To imply that I or anyone denies what you say they deny  is frankly disgusting.

And I will get the normal hate and that I am lying...here is my setup to lie 2 yrs ago.








						The Secret Language of Teenage Texting
					

The Secret Language of Teenage Texting By Michael Rubino, PhD, MFT, Patch Mayor/ Kids & Family/ Patch/ patch.com  "This article discusses the issues involved with teenagers Texting and the codes they use.  The Secrets of Teenage Texting  As a psychotherapist who primarily treats teenagers, I am...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> I threw that phrase in to see who would reply. It was bait.


You got your answer.


----------



## TravelTime

bluehende said:


> Curious who are these people you speak of?????
> 
> No one anywhere at any time has said this.  You are very good at projecting all kinds of evil thoughts on people you cannot identify.  It is a classic straw man argument.
> 
> Let me try for the 10th time
> 
> No one wants schools closed
> No one denies that this pandemic is hard on peoples mental health
> 
> 
> Now please please please understand the nuance
> 
> All schools are not in a position to open fully.  Please again note that nowhere did I say all schools should stay closed.
> Schools opening at this point will be stressful for a lot of kids and just for you I will add it will be GOOD , again will be GOOD. for a lot of kids.  See what I did.
> Teachers and staff have their right to either be concerned for their safety or not.  Neither view is evil.  Again see what I did there.
> 
> 
> Opening schools will not magically make all this stress go away.  The virus, the fear, the stress, and the mental issues will all still be here.
> 
> I have chronicled in the past my youngest sons battle with depression during adolescence.  To imply that I or anyone denies what you say they deny  is frankly disgusting.
> 
> And I will get the normal hate and that I am lying...here is my setup to lie 2 yrs ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Secret Language of Teenage Texting
> 
> 
> The Secret Language of Teenage Texting By Michael Rubino, PhD, MFT, Patch Mayor/ Kids & Family/ Patch/ patch.com  "This article discusses the issues involved with teenagers Texting and the codes they use.  The Secrets of Teenage Texting  As a psychotherapist who primarily treats teenagers, I am...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com



You are also good at projecting your evil thoughts on others. Don’t take everything so personally. Take it easy! Relax.

I am flattered to be called “evil.” That is a first for me.


----------



## TravelTime

bluehende said:


> You got your answer.



Some people who I will not name are taking Tug too seriously. I often do not agree with what people say but I do not let it bother me. I learned this in 2016 or I would always be angry or irritated.


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> I threw that phrase in to see who would reply. It was bait.


You got your answer

Internet troll

In Internet slang, a *troll* is a person who starts  flame wars or intentionally upsets people on the Internet by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] either for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.


----------



## TravelTime

I told my DH that I was called “evil” and he said “TUG is getting mean.” So who is the evil one?


----------



## TravelTime

LOL, now I am a troll. First time I am called that. I am an evil troll.


----------



## TravelTime

So I guess you are a troll too because your current behavior also fits.


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> Some people who I will not name are taking Tug too seriously. I often do not agree with what people say but I do not let it bother me. I learned this in 2016 or I would always be angry or irritated.


I went through hell with my youngest.  Your troll was disgusting and you got what you wanted.  I will always take certain things serious.  You should be proud


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> So I guess you are a troll too because your current behavior also fits.


As usual no comment on the post that actually contained substance.


----------



## TravelTime

bluehende said:


> I went through hell with my youngest.  Your troll was disgusting and you got what you wanted.  I will always take certain things serious.  You should be proud



Oh come on. Such melodrama. All I said is I do not understand how some people do not take mental health seriously.


----------



## TravelTime

bluehende said:


> As usual no comment on the post that actually contained substance.



There was no substance. But you are good at insulting other people. You should stop it.


----------



## SmithOp

DannyTS said:


> @SueDonJ This is a poll showing people think the number of deaths for those under 24 is *40 times higher* than the real one. So I guess not everyone is hearing the same reports.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *They Blinded Us from Science | Franklin Templeton*
> Our Fixed Income CIO Sonal Desai unveils the first insights from the new Franklin Templeton–Gallup research project on the behavioral response to COVID-19.
> us.beyondbullsandbears.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They Blinded Us from Science | Franklin Templeton
> 
> 
> Our Fixed Income CIO Sonal Desai unveils the first insights from the new Franklin Templeton–Gallup research project on the behavioral response to COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> us.beyondbullsandbears.com



Here’s what I take from this chart, and it confirms my reason for isolating away from younger folks:

People under 55 are the super spreaders.
People over 55 are the super fatalities.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## TravelTime

My DH says: Covid has become a cultural divide.   Mention it, and it’s like throwing a bomb.


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> LOL, now I am a troll. First time I am called that. I am an evil troll.





TravelTime said:


> I threw that phrase in to see who would reply. It was bait.


----------



## TravelTime

The phase was not inflammatory in and of itself. It was the interpretation of certain people.


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> Oh come on. Such melodrama. All I said is I do not understand how some people do not take mental health seriously.





TravelTime said:


> I still can’t believe anyone does not get this.


----------



## TravelTime

The phase was not inflammatory in and of itself. It was the interpretation of certain people. Why don’t you include the phase again? It was nothing bad. Your posts are really mean.


----------



## TravelTime

And??? It is true that many people do not take mental health seriously.


----------



## TravelTime

A lot of what I say is misinterpreted and taken out of context by some people. I do not want to name people because that would be mean and cause conflict, which is never my intention unless someone comes after me by calling me an evil troll. I was just expressing an opinion. Opinions are not allowed on TUG. Unless it is not my opinion. Only certain people are allowed to have an opinion on TUG. The rest of us are called all kinds of names. This needs to stop. It is bullying.


----------



## TravelTime

bluehende said:


> I did not bring up suicides.  When suicide data was put up for 2020 it begged the question what was it in 2019?  I did some actual research and found that the real data I can come up with does not show an increase in suicides or suicidal thoughts in teens.   In fact I have seen OPINIONS that going back to school may in fact hurt the mental health of teens considering the stress involved.    IMHO the data is not close to being conclusive.  But I do question the premise that sending kids back to school is helpful in this one issue.  If you have real data to show one way or the other I would welcome it.
> 
> Edited to add questions in my  mind.
> 
> Are suicide rates going up significantly in either adolescents or adults?
> Is the stress of no school greater than the stress normally associated with being in school?
> How will teens react to the new normal and the stress of covid19?



This post came across as dismissive to mental health. Maybe that was not your intention but that is how it sounded to me.


----------



## DannyTS

TravelTime said:


> A lot of what I say is misinterpreted and taken out of context by some people. I do not want to name people because that would be mean and cause conflict, which is never my intention unless someone comes after me by calling me an evil troll. I was just expressing an opinion. Opinions are not allowed on TUG. Unless it is not my opinion. Only certain people are allowed to have an opinion on TUG. The rest of us are called all kinds of names. This needs to stop. It is bullying.


Do you remember the early days when we were told we were choosing the wallet instead of human lives? Few of us said that an extended lockdown would have a lot of unintended consequences including increased violence, mental problems, increased poverty and we were crucified for that


----------



## TravelTime

DannyTS said:


> Do you remember the early days when we were told we were choosing the wallet instead of human lives? Few of us said that an extended lockdown would have a lot of unintended consequences including increased violence and mental problems (and many others) and they were crucified for that.



Yes. I was also told I cared more about money than lives when that is not what I was saying. Certain people misinterpreted it and ran with it. I guess it is hard to be a visionary. We will get attacked for it. Let’s see what bad names they have for us now. This bullying needs to stop. It is against TUG rules. It is okay to disagree but not okay to name call.


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> This post came across as dismissive to mental health. Maybe that was not your intention but that is how it sounded to me.


So are we going back to substance.  Please show where going back to school will alleviate the problem and not exacerbate it.  I have asked 3 times now.  I have admitted three times I do not know the answer to this, and have shown another school of thought about sending kids to school.


----------



## Cornell

DannyTS said:


> Do you remember the early days when we were told we were choosing the wallet instead of human lives? Few of us said that an extended lockdown would have a lot of unintended consequences including increased violence, mental problems, increased poverty and we were crucified for that


Do you remember long ago that we were told the schools would be shut down for a few weeks, then the rest of the school year , just to keep our medical system from being overwhelmed?


----------



## TravelTime

bluehende said:


> So are we going back to substance.  Please show where going back to school will alleviate the problem and not exacerbate it.  I have asked 3 times now.  I have admitted three times I do not know the answer to this, and have shown another school of thought about sending kids to school.



I do not want to have discussions with you.


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> This post came across as dismissive to mental health. Maybe that was not your intention but that is how it sounded to me.





bluehende said:


> I will make it easy. This pandemic is causing a lot of stress and the associated mental issues.


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> Do you remember long ago that we were told the schools would be shut down for a few weeks, then the rest of the school year , just to keep our medical system from being overwhelmed?



Yes I remember that. Now school will probably be closed through the rest of the school year. I have a friend who lives in NYC. They rented a house in the Hamptons for the summer. Now they are looking for a house through next summer. I have a client who has set up a private school for the entire school year. Another client is spending the college school year in Tahoe. People do not think the schools will re-open and they are planning accordingly.


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> Yes I remember that. Now school will probably be closed through the rest of the school year. I have a friend who lives in NYC. They rented a house in the Hamptons for the summer. Now they are looking for a house through next summer. I have a client who has set up a private school for the entire school year. Another client is spending the college school year in Tahoe. People do not think the schools will re-open and they are planning accordingly.


Those of us who follow this topic closely agree- schools are most likely not opening this year.  It's a complete farce.  I'm reading post after post on my social media about how week #1 has gone here in IL and it's disturbing.  Let's see how everyone is doing come November, December at this rate.


----------



## geekette

TravelTime said:


> And??? It is true that many people do not take mental health seriously.


who?  name names.


----------



## DannyTS

Those who said that the concerns for the consequences of the shutdown were exaggerated. We know the 2 camps, we do not need to name names


----------



## geekette

DannyTS said:


> Those who said that the concerns for the consequences of the shutdown were exaggerated. We know the 2 camps, we do not need to name names


Who?  You do need to name names.  Who said that the concerns for the consequences of the shutdown were exaggerated?   Who?   Who said that?  Prove that anyone said that ever.


----------



## TravelTime

geekette said:


> Who?  You do need to name names.  Who said that the concerns for the consequences of the shutdown were exaggerated?   Who?   Who said that?  Prove that anyone said that ever.



He is right. I remember that.


----------



## TravelTime

TravelTime said:


> I threw that phrase in to see who would reply. It was bait.



@Ken555  I meant this as a joke. I was teasing you. I hope you did not misinterpret it. That is why I put a smiley face after it. Someone called me a troll for saying this. No sense of humor.


----------



## bluehende

TravelTime said:


> You are also good at projecting your evil thoughts on others. Don’t take everything so personally. Take it easy! Relax.
> 
> I am flattered to be called “evil.” That is a first for me.





bluehende said:


> You are very good at projecting all kinds of evil thoughts on people you cannot identify. It is a classic straw man argument.


----------



## TravelTime

There you go again. You’re still at it. I forgot about this a while ago and have moved on.


----------



## SteelerGal

Our CA SD is reopening elementary schools in a hybrid schedule.  We were just approved a waiver along w/ 24 other schools.   I am fine w/ it being hybrid for 3hrs/day until 2021.  It will be stressful but I have faith we will survive this together as a community.  Note: parents were allowed to choose VL.  Less than 10% decided to go full virtual. 

Now it’s a fight to get special needs back. 
W/out schools, SN children and adults are not receiving Services.  The Governor is supposedly announcing important changes today.


----------



## TravelTime

Posting this here because it is related to the mental health discussion. (Not that posts need to be related anymore now the hijacking is allowed)



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/08/21/locked-inside-nursing-facility-an-elderly-woman-was-slipping-away-so-her-daughter-brought-her-home/?arc404=true
		


_*A daughter’s choice: Her mom didn’t have covid-19. But isolation seemed to be killing her.*_

....._For approximately 2.5 million elderly Americans in long-term care, the threats posed by the coronavirus are twofold: rampant deaths and an unprecedented era of isolation.

Visitors were banned at long-term care facilities nationwide in mid-March, and communal dining and activities were mostly canceled. While those changes may have been necessary to slow the spread of the virus, medical experts say they proved devastating for the mental and physical health of residents, particularly the more than 40 percent who have Alzheimer’s or other forms of dementia at such facilities......_

......*‘**Dying of loneliness’*
_
There have been more than 70,000 deaths in long-term care facilitiessince March due to covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus — 41 percent of all virus-related deaths reported nationwide.

But experts say the true toll of the deadly pandemic on the elderly is much higher.

Geriatrician Michael Wasserman said cases of neglect and other issues have gone unnoticed because when visitors were barred, residents lost their most important watchdogs: families and the local ombudsmen, who are supposed to regularly visit long-term care facilities and investigate complaints. At the same time, the mass shutdown has created a deep social isolation that experts say has contributed to soaring rates of depression and anxiety and general loss of the will to live....._


----------



## TravelTime

This is old in terms of Covid time but it is a good summary of what happens with losing a few months of school. Now imagine what happens with losing 1.5 years of more. I am predicting that most schools will be closed this entire school year too.









						The Long-Term Effects Of Months-Long School Closures On U.S. Children
					

NPR's Mary Louise Kelly talks with former U.S. education secretary and current president of the Education Trust John King Jr. about the long-term effects of school closures on children in the U.S.




					www.npr.org


----------



## TravelTime

If the CDC is saying schools should reopen, why are they not?









						Communities, Schools, Workplaces, & Events
					

Cleaning and Disinfecting: Everyday steps, when someone is sick, and considerations for employers.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## Cornell

Source @ethicalSkeptic on Twitter


----------



## Brett

SteelerGal said:


> Our CA SD is reopening elementary schools in a hybrid schedule.  We were just approved a waiver along w/ 24 other schools.   I am fine w/ it being hybrid for 3hrs/day until 2021.  It will be stressful but I have faith we will survive this together as a community.  Note: parents were allowed to choose VL.  Less than 10% decided to go full virtual.
> 
> Now it’s a fight to get special needs back.
> W/out schools, SN children and adults are not receiving Services.  The Governor is supposedly announcing important changes today.



My city has several choices including the 'hybrid' schedule which I would probably choose if my children were still in school


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> Posting this here because it is related to the mental health discussion. (Not that posts need to be related anymore now the hijacking is allowed)
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/08/21/locked-inside-nursing-facility-an-elderly-woman-was-slipping-away-so-her-daughter-brought-her-home/?arc404=true
> 
> 
> 
> _*A daughter’s choice: Her mom didn’t have covid-19. But isolation seemed to be killing her.*_
> 
> ....._For approximately 2.5 million elderly Americans in long-term care, the threats posed by the coronavirus are twofold: rampant deaths and an unprecedented era of isolation.
> 
> Visitors were banned at long-term care facilities nationwide in mid-March, and communal dining and activities were mostly canceled. While those changes may have been necessary to slow the spread of the virus, medical experts say they proved devastating for the mental and physical health of residents, particularly the more than 40 percent who have Alzheimer’s or other forms of dementia at such facilities......_
> 
> ......*‘**Dying of loneliness’*
> 
> _There have been more than 70,000 deaths in long-term care facilitiessince March due to covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus — 41 percent of all virus-related deaths reported nationwide.
> 
> But experts say the true toll of the deadly pandemic on the elderly is much higher.
> 
> Geriatrician Michael Wasserman said cases of neglect and other issues have gone unnoticed because when visitors were barred, residents lost their most important watchdogs: families and the local ombudsmen, who are supposed to regularly visit long-term care facilities and investigate complaints. At the same time, the mass shutdown has created a deep social isolation that experts say has contributed to soaring rates of depression and anxiety and general loss of the will to live....._


This post is very timely.  My 87 YO mother lives in an assisted living facility . They did a great job keeping everyone healthy.  However, now that thing have loosened up , my family is very upset with the minimal visits (and how they are executed) with her.  We understand that the facility has to follow the IDPH guidelines (many of which seem really stupid) and we wouldn't dream of asking them to bend the rules.  But we feel that the facility can be doing a LOT more so we can have more family time.  We are consulting w/an elder care attorney now to figure out next steps.

I feel sick at the thought of the holidays.  Family is really the only thing my mom has left.

Currently we are only allowed outdoor visits.  Fall will be around the corner soon here in IL.


----------



## Brett

Cornell said:


> This post is very timely.  My 87 YO mother lives in an assisted living facility . They did a great job keeping everyone healthy.  However, now that thing have loosened up , my family is very upset with the minimal visits (and how they are executed) with her.  We understand that the facility has to follow the IDPH guidelines (many of which seem really stupid) and we wouldn't dream of asking them to bend the rules.  But we feel that the facility can be doing a LOT more so we can have more family time.  We are consulting w/an elder care attorney now to figure out next steps.
> 
> I feel sick at the thought of the holidays.  Family is really the only thing my mom has left.
> 
> Currently we are only allowed outdoor visits.  Fall will be around the corner soon here in IL.



you can choose another assisted living facility.     That's what we are doing with my mother


----------



## Cornell

Brett said:


> you can choose another assisted living facility.     That's what we are doing with my mother


That's an interesting thought - thank you.


----------



## Luanne

Brett said:


> you can choose another assisted living facility.     That's what we are doing with my mother


Are the assisted living facilities in your state allowed to choose the protocols they choose?  Here in New Mexico they are just starting to be opened up to more than window visits. But ALL of them have to follow the same guidelines. Outside visits only, once a month by appointment, wearing masks and staying 6 feet apart (or 12 feet if the resident can't wear a mask).  The facility must have no cases of Covid. And there are a few counties that cannot even do this at this point due to their rate of cases.


----------



## Brett

Cornell said:


> That's an interesting thought - thank you.



U R welcome.    
Each nursing home or assisted living facility has different rules.   For my mother it's more about moving to a location closer to family but the assisted living facility close to us has a more lenient visitation policy ... so they say


----------



## Brett

Luanne said:


> Are the assisted living facilities in your state allowed to choose the protocols they choose?  Here in New Mexico they are just starting to be opened up to more than window visits. But ALL of them have to follow the same guidelines. Outside visits only, once a month, wearing masks and staying 6 feet apart (or 12 feet if the resident can't wear a mask).  The facility must have no cases of Covid. And there are a few counties that cannot even do this at this point due to their rate of cases.



yes, apparently they can choose the "rules"  in Virginia.   But we haven't made the physical move yet, just completed the paperwork


----------



## Cornell

Luanne said:


> Are the assisted living facilities in your state allowed to choose the protocols they choose?  Here in New Mexico they are just starting to be opened up to more than window visits. But ALL of them have to follow the same guidelines. Outside visits only, once a month by appointment, wearing masks and staying 6 feet apart (or 12 feet if the resident can't wear a mask).  The facility must have no cases of Covid. And there are a few counties that cannot even do this at this point due to their rate of cases.


Yes they all have to use the same guidelines.  But our gripe is that the facility could be doing a lot more to have family access within the rules of the IDPH guidelines .


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> Yes they all have to use the same guidelines.  But our gripe is that the facility could be doing a lot more to have family access within the rules of the IDPH guidelines .



I think the way older people in nursing homes are being isolated is terrible. If I were in my 80s or 90s, I would rather see family than spend my last years all alone and die alone. The government needs to come up with a better solution for nursing care homes.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> @Ken555  I meant this as a joke. I was teasing you. I hope you did not misinterpret it. That is why I put a smiley face after it. Someone called me a troll for saying this. No sense of humor.



I have zero issues with your response. However, if your intent truly was that it was "bait" then that action was the very definition of being a troll. So... please don't do that again. Post what you truly think, or else be very clear that you are joking. It's sometimes good to try to lighten up a conversation when it gets too serious, but only when everyone knows and in this case it's obvious that wasn't the case. And, some of you may think it's funny that other TUG members took your post seriously and responded in kind, only to be entirely dismissed by you. That's not the type of civil discussions that engender respect. I'll add a smiley here, to lighten this up...


----------



## Ken555

Today's news from LA. This just an excerpt, but I thought it relevant to the topic of schools... 



> *Media Contact:* media@ph.lacounty.gov - (213) 240-8144
> 
> *For Immediate Release:*
> August 21, 2020
> 
> *Public Health Sees Increase in MIS-C Cases in L.A. County Children and 46 New Deaths and 1,759 New Cases of Confirmed COVID-19 in
> Los Angeles County*
> ​
> The Los Angeles County Department of Public Health (Public Health) is reporting nine additional cases of multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children (MIS-C). This brings the total cases of MIS-C in L.A. County to 25 children.
> 
> 
> 
> Twenty-eight percent of these cases were between the ages of 0 and 5 years old, 44% were between the ages of 6 and 12 years old, and 28% were between the ages of 13 and 20 years old. The majority of cases (68%) were Latino/Latinx.
> 
> 
> 
> No children with MIS-C in L.A. County have died.
> 
> 
> 
> MIS-C is a condition that affects children under 21 years old across the country who may have been exposed to COVID-19 or had COVID-19. Different body parts can become inflamed, including the heart, lungs, kidneys, brain, skin, eyes, or gastrointestinal organs and there can be lifelong health impacts.
> 
> 
> 
> Public Health advises physicians to consider for MIS-C in patient children under 21 years old and to notify the department immediately of any cases.
> 
> 
> 
> Today, Public Health has confirmed 46 new deaths and 1,759 new cases of COVID-19. Of the new cases reported by Public Health today (excluding Long Beach and Pasadena), 72% occurred in people under the age of 50 years old.
> 
> 
> 
> To date, Public Health has identified 229,054 positive cases of COVID-19 across all areas of L.A. County, and a total of 5,491 deaths. Testing results are available for nearly 2,154,000 individuals with 10% of all people testing positive.
> 
> 
> 
> Of the 46 new deaths reported today, 18 people that passed away (excluding Long Beach and Pasadena) were over the age of 80 years old, 15 people who died were between the ages of 65 and 79 years old, nine people who died were between the ages of 50 and 64 years old, two people who died were between the ages of 30 and 49 years old, and one person who died was between the ages of 18 and 29 years old. Thirty-five people had underlying health conditions including 14 people over the age of 80 years old, 13 people between the ages of 65 and 79 years old, six people between the ages of 50 and 64 years old, one person between the ages of 30 and 49 years old, and one person between the ages of 18 and 29 years old. One death was reported by the City of Long Beach.


----------



## cman

I'm in Dallas and I really like how our school superintendent has handled this.


DannyTS said:


> Do you remember the early days when we were told we were choosing the wallet instead of human lives? Few of us said that an extended lockdown would have a lot of unintended consequences including increased violence, mental problems, increased poverty and *we were crucified* for that


Dude, so you're a "victim" now? LOL


----------



## Luanne

TravelTime said:


> I think the way older people in nursing homes are being isolated is terrible. If I were in my 80s or 90s, I would rather see family than spend my last years all alone and die alone. The government needs to come up with a better solution for nursing care homes.


Seeing that a high number of case of Covid 19 have occurred in nursing homes, and this is a very vulnerable part of the population, what would you suggest the government do.


----------



## TravelTime

Luanne said:


> Seeing that a high number of case of Covid 19 have occurred in nursing homes, and this is a very vulnerable part of the population, what would you suggest the government do.



I am not an expert on public health obviously but it seems there are things that could be done to minimize risk. PPE for loved ones when they visit. Do the visits in a well ventilated area or outdoors. Stay 6+ feet apart during visits. Have the loved ones get a covid test before visiting. Saying no visitors at all for older people with few years left to live seems very extreme. Many of these folks may die alone due to Covid.


----------



## TravelTime

-


----------



## DannyTS

@ cman
No sir, I said it that to point out that some lack not only foresight but also character and that personal attacks were their modus operandi. Nothing has changed apparently.


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> I have zero issues with your response. However, if your intent truly was that it was "bait" then that action was the very definition of being a troll. So... please don't do that again. Post what you truly think, or else be very clear that you are joking. It's sometimes good to try to lighten up a conversation when it gets too serious, but only when everyone knows and in this case it's obvious that wasn't the case. And, some of you may think it's funny that other TUG members took your post seriously and responded in kind, only to be entirely dismissed by you. That's not the type of civil discussions that engender respect. I'll add a smiley here, to lighten this up...



I had a smiley face after the comment about bait. It was meant to be a joke. 

<sarcasm>Do you really think I am that clever to know how to bait people on purpose?<sarcasm>


----------



## geekette

TravelTime said:


> I am not an expert on public health obviously but it seems there are things that could be done to minimize risk. PPE for loved ones when they visit. Do the visits in a well ventilated area or outdoors. Stay 6+ feet apart during visits. Have the loved ones get a covid test before visiting. Saying no visitors at all for older people with few years left to live seems very extreme. Many of these folks may die alone due to Covid.


who pays for this PPE?   Visitors should bring their own.  How are people going to get tests before visiting??  Not sure what the deal is where you live, but I can't get a "just because" test.  I have to be sick or exposed to a known positive.  Both of these are costly and not a reasonable cost for facility to bear.  

Where do you draw the line between a facility keeping their residents alive and, eh, why not risk exposure for them??   I don't think they can ethically risk an outbreak.   They can't rely on general public to manage PPE effectively, stay away if symptomatic or too many contacts, nor trust that people actually tested negative moments before entry to facility.    None of this minimizes risks enough for residents.   

We are losing over a thousand people a day.  most everyone that dies of COVID dies alone. It is a very cruel disease.   

I think if someone doesn't like the rules for where their loved one is, they should make other arrangements.  isn't that what people are doing with schools, some people moving, others creating their own "school" or pod...


----------



## jabberwocky

Luanne said:


> Seeing that a high number of case of Covid 19 have occurred in nursing homes, and this is a very vulnerable part of the population, what would you suggest the government do.


Close them all down since these settings contribute to spread.  Residents of the homes could live with their families who would be responsible for their care.  Just think of how many lives we could save!


----------



## TravelTime

geekette said:


> who pays for this PPE?   Visitors should bring their own.  How are people going to get tests before visiting??  Not sure what the deal is where you live, but I can't get a "just because" test.  I have to be sick or exposed to a known positive.  Both of these are costly and not a reasonable cost for facility to bear.
> 
> Where do you draw the line between a facility keeping their residents alive and, eh, why not risk exposure for them??   I don't think they can ethically risk an outbreak.   They can't rely on general public to manage PPE effectively, stay away if symptomatic or too many contacts, nor trust that people actually tested negative moments before entry to facility.    None of this minimizes risks enough for residents.
> 
> We are losing over a thousand people a day.  most everyone that dies of COVID dies alone. It is a very cruel disease.
> 
> I think if someone doesn't like the rules for where their loved one is, they should make other arrangements.  isn't that what people are doing with schools, some people moving, others creating their own "school" or pod...



If it were me, I would take my loved one out of the nursing home and bring them home to live with me during the pandemic. I would hire some help to care for them at home to help me out. I would not want my loved one to suffer from loneliness during the pandemic and I would not trust that they nursing home staff is taking care of them properly without some oversight by family members. Even the best nursing homes need family members to check and make sure everything is functioning properly for their loved ones. I would not want my loved one to die alone in a nursing home because I am not allowed to visit. But this would be my personal solution because we have resources. Just like I would start a private learning pod and hire private tutors and teachers if I had kids. My personal solutions are not going to work for the majority. BTW, the solutions I mentioned for the majority are not my ideas. I have been reading about this subject and these are suggestions by those so-called infamous experts.

One another note, the elderly in nursing homes are going to die prematurely from loneliness:

_Doctors believe the disruption of routines and disappearance of familiar faces in many cases led to health declines among fragile nursing-home residents.

“There are public-health consequences of loneliness, isolation and loss of connection to a beloved person that may be equally devastating” as Covid-19, said Lisa Gwyther, an associate professor at the Duke University School of Medicine. For those with dementia, “the greatest fear is the fear of abandonment in a world that doesn’t make sense.”_


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> Close them all down since these settings contribute to spread.  Residents of the homes could live with their families who would be responsible for their care.  Just think of how many lives we could save!



Yes that is what I would do if I had a loved one in a nursing home. But many families do not have the capacity or desire to care for their loved ones for many reasons. I guess this is not all that different than closing the schools. Why are nursing homes staying open when 40% of deaths are occurring there while schools where children are low risk are not allowed to open?


----------



## DannyTS

"Dr. Véronique Groleau, a pediatric gastroenterologist at the Sainte-Justine hospital, said she is dealing with patients with chronic health issues, but most of them are able to attend school without compromising their health. "









						Doctors OK Quebec return-to-school plan as legal challenge launched against it
					

Constitutional lawyer Julius Grey is representing parents who are demanding an online schooling option for families




					montrealgazette.com


----------



## SteelerGal

Ken555 said:


> Today's news from LA. This just an excerpt, but I thought it relevant to the topic of schools...


LA is it’s own beast.  LAUSD is not remaining closed due to child safety.  It is dealing w/ the same issues as IL.  I would not be surprised if there was a large exodus out of LAUSD after this school year.  Then hopefully LAUSD is broken into multiply districts.


----------



## Cornell

James Dwyer is the same Harvard professor that has said “The reason parent-child relationships exist is because the State confers legal parenthood.” This quote was in the specific context of an argument against parents being able to educate their children at home.










						Will online schooling increase child abuse risks? - Harvard Law School
					

As more schools plan for remote learning, Elizabeth Bartholet and James Dwyer argue that school districts, child protective services, and other agencies across the nation must adopt new safeguards to prevent and respond to incidents of child maltreatment.




					today.law.harvard.edu


----------



## Cornell

Montgomery County:

Kids can work in the schools but they can't go to school there.

Similarly, my teen daughter can work at her grandmother's assisted living facility, but can't visit her grandmother.


----------



## Cornell

Dane County , WI (home of Madison "30 square miles surrounded by reality") decides Friday night to keep all schools closed,_* including private.*_  Many private schools there starting next week.









						Dane County schools must start grades 3-12 online this fall, public health officials say
					

Public Health Madison and Dane County issued the order shortly after 5 p.m. Friday due to the COVID-19 pandemic.




					madison.com


----------



## Cornell

Chicago Public Schools: While in-person learning is currently off limits, is looking at having what amounts to daycare. Note #2 “...will not be qualified to teach.”


----------



## DannyTS

Michigan College Will Digitally Track Students' Movements At All Times - Washington Free Beacon
					

A Michigan college is requiring students to download a phone application that tracks their location and private health data at all times.




					freebeacon.com


----------



## Cornell

Similarly, University of Illinois is requiring students to get tested twice a week. If you don't comply, the university turns off your "key card" so you don't have access to university buildings.  This goes on even if you have a 100% remote class schedule.

Additionally, the university has made these bold estimates of why they need all of this testing.  "models" - UGH.  

*Under Goldenfield’s models, about 200 of the 45,000 students arriving at the U. of I. this fall are expected to test positive. Those students were presumably infected before returning, Goldenfeld said.*
_*For the rest of the semester, Goldenfield said he predicts about 680 people will test positive on campus, accounting for non-perfect adherence to the school’s safety protocols. Without any interventions, Goldenfield said, the models predict that 30,000 students, faculty or staff would become infected.
While Goldenfeld’s model is based upon 45,000 returning students, the school expects only 35,000 to 40,000 to come back.*_









						U. of I. expects COVID-19 cases to multiply as students return but says it can stop the spread with new saliva test
					

The school's modeling suggests about 680 people will test positive on campus, but that would be 30,000 without public health interventions.




					www.chicagotribune.com


----------



## jabberwocky

many universities already have the capability to track student cell phones down the to the room they are in on campus - primarily through the universities wifi systems. 

This is taking it to a whole new level but at least the students are aware they are being tracked.


----------



## Cornell

jabberwocky said:


> many universities already have the capability to track student cell phones down the to the room they are in on campus - primarily through the universities wifi systems.
> 
> This is taking it to a whole new level but at least the students are aware they are being tracked.


I will be shepherding my daughter through college visits and applications this fall.  You better believe that I will be asking each college hard questions about these matters.


----------



## jabberwocky

Cornell said:


> I will be shepherding my daughter through college visits and applications this fall.  You better believe that I will be asking each college hard questions about these matters.


Good. Both you and your daughter should be comfortable with the campus environment. The wifi tracking is actually important as it can help with campus security incidents. For example, I’ve seen an instance where a student was reported by another student for making a bomb threat - campus security was able to immediately identify the class they were currently sitting in and meet them after the class was over for questioning.  

Also, you’re probably already doing this, but take a close look at the surrounding community for how safe that feels. Campus itself might be safe, but you don’t want to be walking through an unsafe neighborhood - most students want to venture around the community.


----------



## Cornell

jabberwocky said:


> Good. Both you and your daughter should be comfortable with the campus environment. The wifi tracking is actually important as it can help with campus security incidents. For example, I’ve seen an instance where a student was reported by another student for making a bomb threat - campus security was able to immediately identify the class they were currently sitting in and meet them after the class was over for questioning.
> 
> Also, you’re probably already doing this, but take a close look at the surrounding community for how safe that feels. Campus itself might be safe, but you don’t want to be walking through an unsafe neighborhood - most students want to venture around the community.


That’s why Univ of Chicago is a NO GO . It’s an island surrounded by crime.


----------



## jabberwocky

Cornell said:


> That’s why Univ of Chicago is a NO GO . It’s an island surrounded by crime.


Completely agree. Fantastic on the academic front, but I would not want to be there walking off campus after dark.

There are some other fantastic schools in the Midwest with great academics, campuses and surrounded by nice communities. You’re lucky - a lot of them are within driving (not commuting) distance of Chicago.


----------



## bogey21

bogey21 said:


> As I posted earlier my Daughter's 3 kids (ages roughly 13, 11 and 8) are currently attending classes at a small Christian school.  I described the protocols the school is following  in an earlier post.  So it looks like I will have a real world situation to follow.  I'll try to post if anything extra ordinary happens...



Update -- I just talked to my Daughter.  School has been open for two weeks and all is going well.  She said about 95% students and teachers  are following the rules to a "T".  She said the only problem is a couple of the parents who are complaining.  Her desired solution to this is to run them off...

George


----------



## DannyTS

bogey21 said:


> Update -- I just talked to my Daughter.  School has been open for two weeks and all is going well.  She said about 95% students and teachers  are following the rules to a "T".  She said the only problem is a couple of the parents who are complaining.  Her desired solution to this is to run them off...
> 
> George


what are they complaining about?


----------



## bogey21

DannyTS said:


> what are they complaining about?


Who knows?  Some people always find something to complain about....

George


----------



## TravelTime

Harvard researchers discover the easy behavioral trick to avoiding depression
					

The study’s focus on lifestyle factors that can you can easily modify make it particularly useful if you suffer from depression.




					www.fastcompany.com


----------



## bogey21

Cornell said:


> I will be shepherding my daughter through college visits and applications this fall.



I attended nine (yes nine) Universities before finally graduating from Southern Illinois University.  I was there about 15 months and loved it...

George


----------



## Ken555

bogey21 said:


> Who knows? Some people always find something to complain about....
> 
> George



Incredible! Who do these people think they are?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

The private schools in our county are open for in person school. I am researching it because we are considering adopting an older school age child. I think my first choice will be in person school and second choice will be a private learning pod with a teacher. I do not feel equipped to teach a child at home.


----------



## TravelTime

This is what one of our local private schools is doing to deal with Covid.

*10 REASONS TO CHOOSE SJCS AMID THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC*
1. LIMITED CLASS SIZES – Our smaller class sizes provide a superior pupil to teacher ratio for personal instruction and will be capped to ensure students have adequate room to be safely, physically-distanced and to maximize learning. Given social distancing and sanitizing requirements, the ample size of our classrooms accommodates the health and safety of our students. Our model also requires individual supplies and resources for each student with no sharing, thus providing an added layer of protection.

2. MONDAY - FRIDAY ON CAMPUS INSTRUCTION – Our school campus is open all day, so that parents can get back to work! All students in all grades start and finish at the same time and will follow the same calendar.

3. AFTER SCHOOL CARE AVAILABLE – We offer a quality, structured after-school program in a separate building adjacent to a multi-acre sports field surrounded by shade trees. Our Director supervises attendance, drop-off and pick-up, and sanitization of interior spaces. In addition, we provide nutritious snacks, organized outdoor activities, and quiet space for homework.

4. STUDENTS WORKING IN COHORTS - In the spirit of “reducing the denominator,” students are organized into discrete cohorts to minimize the spread of COVID-19 between groups.

5. LARGE OUTDOOR AREAS – Structure is provided whereby cohorts recess in separate areas, while still being afforded a Physical Education program and time for fun outdoor activities.

6. SECURE, GATED CAMPUS LIMITING PUBLIC EXPOSURE – Our entire school campus is gated, with a secure protocol for drop-off and pick-up of students. Visitors on campus are limited, and screenings are conducted prior to campus access.

7. INCREASED SANITATION – We have procedures in place for sanitizing throughout the day, giving special attention to commonly touched surfaces. Our site has alcohol-based hand sanitizers and cleaning products accessible throughout the workplace to disinfect frequently-touched objects and surfaces such as telephones and keyboards. The site custodial cleans all workspaces at their designated cleaning time.
Additionally, staff is trained in sanitation and hygiene instruction, and teachers routinely provide initial and recurrent instruction in social distancing and health practices to their students.

8. HEALTH CHECKS – All employees are required to conduct a self-screening of COVID-19 symptoms and pass a temperature screening upon campus entry.

9. 1:1 CHROMEBOOK RATIO – Technology is afforded a dominant place in the student curriculum, as Chromebooks provide connectivity to every student. This ensures safety of each student as they are only using their school provided Chromebook.

10. GOOGLE CLASSROOM PROFICIENCY – Campus-wide use of features limits touchpoints otherwise necessary for student-to-student or teacher-to-student interaction. Google Classroom is used for announcements, lesson material and assignments, as well as uploading of files, videos, images and links. Other features are available such as Google Stream, which allows students to post comments and ask questions, Google Docs, which allows file sharing, and Google Hangout, allowing forums with or without video.


----------



## Ken555

'I just can't do this': UI student who tested positive for COVID-19 recounts school response









						'I just can't do this': UI student who tested positive for COVID-19 recounts school response
					

Annie Gaughan's account went viral on social media this week. It began as a long thread posted to Instagram but migrated across platforms.



					www.desmoinesregister.com
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Brett

TravelTime said:


> This is what one of our local private schools is doing to deal with Covid.
> 
> *10 REASONS TO CHOOSE SJCS AMID THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC*
> 1. LIMITED CLASS SIZES – Our smaller class sizes provide a superior pupil to teacher ratio for personal instruction and will be capped to ensure students have adequate room to be safely, physically-distanced and to maximize learning. Given social distancing and sanitizing requirements, the ample size of our classrooms accommodates the health and safety of our students. Our model also requires individual supplies and resources for each student with no sharing, thus providing an added layer of protection.
> 
> 2. MONDAY - FRIDAY ON CAMPUS INSTRUCTION – Our school campus is open all day, so that parents can get back to work! All students in all grades start and finish at the same time and will follow the same calendar.
> 
> 3. AFTER SCHOOL CARE AVAILABLE – We offer a quality, structured after-school program in a separate building adjacent to a multi-acre sports field surrounded by shade trees. Our Director supervises attendance, drop-off and pick-up, and sanitization of interior spaces. In addition, we provide nutritious snacks, organized outdoor activities, and quiet space for homework.
> 
> 4. STUDENTS WORKING IN COHORTS - In the spirit of “reducing the denominator,” students are organized into discrete cohorts to minimize the spread of COVID-19 between groups.
> 
> 5. LARGE OUTDOOR AREAS – Structure is provided whereby cohorts recess in separate areas, while still being afforded a Physical Education program and time for fun outdoor activities.
> 
> 6. SECURE, GATED CAMPUS LIMITING PUBLIC EXPOSURE – Our entire school campus is gated, with a secure protocol for drop-off and pick-up of students. Visitors on campus are limited, and screenings are conducted prior to campus access.
> 
> 7. INCREASED SANITATION – We have procedures in place for sanitizing throughout the day, giving special attention to commonly touched surfaces. Our site has alcohol-based hand sanitizers and cleaning products accessible throughout the workplace to disinfect frequently-touched objects and surfaces such as telephones and keyboards. The site custodial cleans all workspaces at their designated cleaning time.
> Additionally, staff is trained in sanitation and hygiene instruction, and teachers routinely provide initial and recurrent instruction in social distancing and health practices to their students.
> 
> 8. HEALTH CHECKS – All employees are required to conduct a self-screening of COVID-19 symptoms and pass a temperature screening upon campus entry.
> 
> 9. 1:1 CHROMEBOOK RATIO – Technology is afforded a dominant place in the student curriculum, as Chromebooks provide connectivity to every student. This ensures safety of each student as they are only using their school provided Chromebook.
> 
> 10. GOOGLE CLASSROOM PROFICIENCY – Campus-wide use of features limits touchpoints otherwise necessary for student-to-student or teacher-to-student interaction. Google Classroom is used for announcements, lesson material and assignments, as well as uploading of files, videos, images and links. Other features are available such as Google Stream, which allows students to post comments and ask questions, Google Docs, which allows file sharing, and Google Hangout, allowing forums with or without video.



looks good -  they forgot to mention it cost $10,000 a year for that nice Catholic gated community school.  
 Fresh organic lunches delivered daily !


----------



## TravelTime

Brett said:


> looks good -  they forgot to mention it cost $10,000 a year



We already know that there is great inequity in education and who can access resources due to Covid. That is one of the reasons why I think the public schools should come up with a solution to re-open the schools so everyone has an equal chance of getting an education during Covid. The children of the well off are going to be much more prepared than everyone else. Once Covid is over, the parents and kids who were left behind will really be feeling it.


----------



## cman

TravelTime said:


> Once Covid is over, the parents and kids who were left behind will really be feeling it.


I think we're underestimating these kids. My father's education was interrupted by a war. He survived, came back to finish high school and went on to get his masters degree. I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but my guess is that these kids are going to step up and meet this challenge. If not, then we may need to reevaluate how we're raising them.


----------



## Cornell

cman said:


> I think we're underestimating these kids. My father's education was interrupted by a war. He survived, came back to finish high school and went on to get his masters degree. I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but my guess is that these kids are going to step up and meet this challenge. If not, then we may need to reevaluate how we're raising them.


The war analogy is a completely false equivalence that’s getting really tiresome

Maybe society needs to reevaluate  how they are treating children.


----------



## DannyTS

cman said:


> I think we're underestimating these kids. My father's education was interrupted by a war. He survived, came back to finish high school and went on to get his masters degree. I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but my guess is that these kids are going to step up and meet this challenge. If not, then we may need to reevaluate how we're raising them.



The war was probably an amazing experience for you father. If you want, you can see it as _part_ of his education.

Now, sitting around hoping for the schools to open and watching this circus might not be an equivalent experience.


----------



## TravelTime

cman said:


> I think we're underestimating these kids. My father's education was interrupted by a war. He survived, came back to finish high school and went on to get his masters degree. I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but my guess is that these kids are going to step up and meet this challenge. If not, then we may need to reevaluate how we're raising them.



There are always exceptions. I did not grow up with a focus on education and I have two master’s degrees. I suspect in the 1940s and even the 1950s and 1960s, things were very different than now so it might not be comparable. 

This country had education problems pre-Covid. It will be even worse for kids raised in families with less access to resources during and post-covid. There is a lot of research on what happens when kids do not go to school in the summer. The over achiever families I know send their kids to educational camps in the summer so they are well ahead when school starts again. I think there was definitely an education divide pre-Covid. Covid is just making it worse.


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> The war analogy is a completely false equivalence that’s getting really tiresome
> 
> Maybe society needs to reevaluate  how they are treating children.



BTW, if your father was in college during the war (I am assuming you mean WWII but maybe you mean a later war) then he was already privileged by the very fact of being in college. Neither of my parents went to college and they were college age during the Vietnam War. My father wanted to go to college but he had to work.


----------



## jabberwocky

Ken555 said:


> 'I just can't do this': UI student who tested positive for COVID-19 recounts school response
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'I just can't do this': UI student who tested positive for COVID-19 recounts school response
> 
> 
> Annie Gaughan's account went viral on social media this week. It began as a long thread posted to Instagram but migrated across platforms.
> 
> 
> 
> www.desmoinesregister.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Ah yes, the good old Iowa City Press-Citizen. You’d think they would have wanted to interview someone from the University for a balanced perspective. So many things going wrong here on the part of the student, parents, physician and university. 
The response time actually is pretty good (four hours for a non-emergency event given what has to go on in the background), but what was she doing out and about after taking the test and displaying symptoms? Usually they tell you to isolate yourself until the results arrive (at least here they do). 

Given she was new to campus, the RA should have communicated better and had someone walk her over to the new dorm, although the dorms are only on block apart and it is an extremely safe and well lighted part of campus (I’m extremely familiar with this particular street in Iowa City). Worst case scenario, there is a world class hospital across the river and the University students are treated very well. 

On a positive note, I am glad to see the Airliner is still in business!


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> BTW, if your father was in college during the war (I am assuming you mean WWII but maybe you mean a later war) then he was already privileged by the very fact of being in college. Neither of my parents went to college and they were college age during the Vietnam War. My father wanted to go to college but he had to work.


Back then you could get a good job with only a high school education. Today a bachelors degree is table stakes.


----------



## Cornell

@jabberwocky I thought the same thing about The Airliner in the UI article.

My question is why is this student taking a bus back to Chicago while sick with Covid ?


----------



## Ken555

jabberwocky said:


> Ah yes, the good old Iowa City Press-Citizen. You’d think they would have wanted to interview someone from the University for a balanced perspective. So many things going wrong here on the part of the student, parents, physician and university.
> The response time actually is pretty good (four hours for a non-emergency event given what has to go on in the background), but what was she doing out and about after taking the test and displaying symptoms? Usually they tell you to isolate yourself until the results arrive (at least here they do).
> 
> Given she was new to campus, the RA should have communicated better and had someone walk her over to the new dorm, although the dorms are only on block apart and it is an extremely safe and well lighted part of campus (I’m extremely familiar with this particular street in Iowa City). Worst case scenario, there is a world class hospital across the river and the University students are treated very well.
> 
> On a positive note, I am glad to see the Airliner is still in business!



Glad you found it worth reading. I had the same concerns as you. Failures all over. That’s what makes this a good example of what’s going on.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> Back then you could get a good job with only a high school education. Today a bachelors degree is table stakes.



Yes. And even now only about 35% of Americans have a basic college degree. It is still a privilege to go to college.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> Yes. And even now only about 35% of Americans have a basic college degree. It is still a privilege to go to college.



And not all undergraduate degrees are equal in education.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jabberwocky

Cornell said:


> @jabberwocky I thought the same thing about The Airliner in the UI article.
> 
> My question is why is this student taking a bus back to Chicago while sick with Covid ?


@Cornell  LOL - it seems like I lived on the Airliner hot wings for a few years when I was living there. A few of us grad students had a weekly lunch there for several years.

I didn’t see that part about taking the bus back to Chicago. Was it one of the bigger busses or one of the smaller “grey market” shuttle busses that frequently go back and forth to the Chicago suburbs? I know the busses are extremely popular transport option for undergrads from the Chicago area.


----------



## TravelTime

UI seems like it was a failure at handling a student with the virus. I think if the colleges are going to open, they need a plan or this will happen and then all students will suffer when they have to shut down. And this bad press gives all colleges a bad reputation and hurts the colleges that are opening responsibly.


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> @Cornell  LOL - it seems like I lived on the Airliner hot wings for a few years when I was living there. A few of us grad students had a weekly lunch there for several years.
> 
> I didn’t see that part about taking the bus back to Chicago. Was it one of the bigger busses or one of the smaller “grey market” shuttle busses that frequently go back and forth to the Chicago suburbs? I know the busses are extremely popular transport option for undergrads from the Chicago area.



The article says: “_She lugged some things to the bus stop and, 4 1/2 hours later, checked into the hotel room she's called home since. At this point, she's spent $700 between the bus ticket and the past few days in her hotel room. But, she said, she wasn't about to give the UI another night.”_

Overall, she sounds irresponsible. This is why Covid spreads and we can’t get it under control. People with Covid do not follow the rules. She probably gave it to so many people at school and on the bus.


----------



## Cornell

jabberwocky said:


> @Cornell  LOL - it seems like I lived on the Airliner hot wings for a few years when I was living there. A few of us grad students had a weekly lunch there for several years.
> 
> I didn’t see that part about taking the bus back to Chicago. Was it one of the bigger busses or one of the smaller “grey market” shuttle busses that frequently go back and forth to the Chicago suburbs? I know the busses are extremely popular transport option for undergrads from the Chicago area.


Towards the end of the article it said she took the bus back to the Chicago area after 3 days on campus bc she couldn’t get a Zipcar.


----------



## Cornell

Northeastern warns students: Don’t even think about parties - The Boston Globe
					

In an effort to preempt a COVID-19 outbreak among students this semester, Northeastern University on Friday sent stern e-mails to 115 freshmen and their parents warning them against partying, after a social media poll indicated those students planned to party when they arrived on campus.




					www.bostonglobe.com


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> UI seems like it was a failure at handling a student with the virus. I think if the colleges are going to open, they need a plan or this will happen and then all students will suffer when they have to shut down. And this bad press gives all colleges a bad reputation and hurts the colleges that are opening responsibly.


This is why I wish I could hear from the university. Knowing how these things work, my guess is that UI does have an established protocol and some sort of response team/committee that has to be informed of incidents like this and decide how to triage.  Given the University was informed later in the evening on a weekend it can be tough to get a call put together by such a response team. There is generally too much bureaucracy in a university setting to make quick decisions.

It looks like part of the dorm she was sent to after diagnosis is set aside for any Covid cases - so being able to have her reassigned within four hours shows there is some sort of plan in place. Whether it is a good one - I don’t know. Plans are usually just as good as the people implementing them and you have a (probably new) RA who probably hasn’t had to deal with a case of Covid before.


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> This is why I wish I could hear from the university. Knowing how these things work, my guess is that UI does have an established protocol and some sort of response team/committee that has to be informed of incidents like this and decide how to triage.  Given the University was informed later in the evening on a weekend it can be tough to get a call put together by such a response team. There is generally too much bureaucracy in a university setting to make quick decisions.
> 
> It looks like part of the dorm she was sent to after diagnosis is set aside for any Covid cases - so being able to have her reassigned within four hours shows there is some sort of plan in place. Whether it is a good one - I don’t know. Plans are usually just as good as the people implementing them and you have a (probably new) RA who probably hasn’t had to deal with a case of Covid before.



I agree. It sounds like they had a plan bc they had a place to send her. But if what the student says is true, the plan was not implemented well. UI should have someone on call for 24/7 execution of the plan. You can’t wait until 9 am on Monday to deal with Covid problems. The story probably has some holes in it. It makes for a good media story.


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> The article says: “_She lugged some things to the bus stop and, 4 1/2 hours later, checked into the hotel room she's called home since. At this point, she's spent $700 between the bus ticket and the past few days in her hotel room. But, she said, she wasn't about to give the UI another night.”_
> 
> Overall, she sounds irresponsible. This is why Covid spreads and we can’t get it under control. People with Covid do not follow the rules. She probably gave it to so many people at school and on the bus.


Thanks. For some reason the browser on my phone cut off the article. It shows up on my desktop browser. 

This shows an incredible amount of poor judgement.  She risked the health of too many people and she probably lied to check into her hotel. I thought her parents lived in Illinois - why didn’t she go there or have her parents pick her up in their car?


----------



## Cornell

jabberwocky said:


> Thanks. For some reason the browser on my phone cut off the article. It shows up on my desktop browser.
> 
> This shows an incredible amount of poor judgement.  She risked the health of too many people and she probably lied to check into her hotel. I thought her parents lived in Illinois - why didn’t she go there or have her parents pick her up in their car?


I am guessing it’s bc her parents are in CDC higher risk categories per the article.


----------



## jabberwocky

Ken555 said:


> Glad you found it worth reading. I had the same concerns as you. Failures all over. That’s what makes this a good example of what’s going on.


I agree. Unfortunately, it’s tough to regulate stupid.

 I think given her actions, expulsion from the university would be appropriate in this circumstance.  The university also needs much better media relations people.


----------



## Ken555

jabberwocky said:


> I agree. Unfortunately, it’s tough to regulate stupid.
> 
> I think given her actions, expulsion from the university would be appropriate in this circumstance. The university also needs much better media relations people.



Wow. Based on an article that you criticized, you’re okay reaching a judgment that she should be expelled? I doubt the article was completely accurate. 

And the U needs better PR, not better services? I agree four hours of an initial response is fine in most circumstances, but the dirty rooms? Cold food? Only 3 bottles of water per day for a sick student? C’mon.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> I agree. Unfortunately, it’s tough to regulate stupid.
> 
> I think given her actions, expulsion from the university would be appropriate in this circumstance.  The university also needs much better media relations people.



There is a lot of finger pointing going on now. Colleges are blaming students for partying and being irresponsible and students are starting to blame the universities for not have a good response plan. You are damned if you do and dammed if you don’t. It is a no win situation.

Student papers say administrators share blame for virus outbreaks: ‘Don’t make us write obituaries’


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/08/21/student-newspapers-coronavirus/


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> Wow. Based on an article that you criticized, you’re okay reaching a judgment that she should be expelled? I doubt the article was completely accurate.
> 
> And the U needs better PR, not better services? I agree four hours of an initial response is fine in most circumstances, but the dirty rooms? Cold food? Only 3 bottles of water per day for a sick student? C’mon.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



You said I should be careful how I reply to posts. I am not going to say more.


----------



## jabberwocky

TravelTime said:


> I agree. It sounds like they had a plan bc they had a place to send her. But if what the student says is true, the plan was not implemented well. UI should have someone on call for 24/7 execution of the plan. You can’t wait until 9 am on Monday to deal with Covid problems. The story probably has some holes in it. It makes for a good media story.


They probably do have people on call - standard procedure would be to have all cell phone numbers organized along with a list of deputy’s in place in case someone cannot be contacted.  They probably have to consult several individuals because no one individual wants to take responsibility.

My guess (without inside knowledge) is that a response team would include at a minimum:
- campus security
- student health
- campus residence services
- someone from the Office of the Provost
- general council
- risk management
- media relations

And probably others I could add to the list.

If this was a corporate environment there would be delegated authority and clear lines of authority. Modern university governance is the antithesis of this.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> You said I should be careful how I reply to posts. I am not going to say more.



If you have a problem with my post, please send me a PM. Don’t make a public comment that insinuates criticism.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> If you have a problem with my post, please send me a PM. Don’t make a public comment that insinuates criticism.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Then why did you publicly post criticism of me?


----------



## TravelTime

I just heard the saddest expression on the news. You know the expression “the rich get richer...” How about thIs new one drive by the pandemic “the rich get smarter...”?


----------



## jabberwocky

Ken555 said:


> Wow. Based on an article that you criticized, you’re okay reaching a judgment that she should be expelled? I doubt the article was completely accurate.
> 
> And the U needs better PR, not better services? I agree four hours of an initial response is fine in most circumstances, but the dirty rooms? Cold food? Only 3 bottles of water per day for a sick student? C’mon.



I’m not going to excuse the the university for their response or the accommodations. But there are better ways to deal with the situation that taking a public mode of transportation and checking into a hotel, both likely violations of public health orders and worse putting many people in known danger.  

I’m sure had the appropriate approach been made the food could have been remedied and the water situation improved (tap water in Iowa City is actually pretty good quality but does have a bit of iron in it).  

I do think the biggest failing is that the school should have immediately assigned her a student care coordinator who could advocate for her and help keep her in a stable mental health frame.  I don’t think she was necessarily thinking rationally.  

But it is clear from the article that options under the university policies were to either quarantine or go home to her parents. She did neither and as such breached the code of conduct for students. 

Realistically she would not be expelled (and yes my suggestion is extreme, but I’ve seen suspensions given out for much lower infractions (usually involving alcohol). She has a known case of covid and exposed others. If that doesn’t warrant a sanction, I don’t know what would.


----------



## Ken555

jabberwocky said:


> I’m not going to excuse the the university for their response or the accommodations. But there are better ways to deal with the situation that taking a public mode of transportation and checking into a hotel, both likely violations of public health orders and worse putting many people in known danger.
> 
> I’m sure had the appropriate approach been made the food could have been remedied and the water situation improved (tap water in Iowa City is actually pretty good quality but does have a bit of iron in it).
> 
> I do think the biggest failing is that the school should have immediately assigned her a student care coordinator who could advocate for her and help keep her in a stable mental health frame. I don’t think she was necessarily thinking rationally.
> 
> But it is clear from the article that options under the university policies were to either quarantine or go home to her parents. She did neither and as such breached the code of conduct for students.
> 
> Realistically she would not be expelled (and yes my suggestion is extreme, but I’ve seen suspensions given out for much lower infractions (usually involving alcohol). She has a known case of covid and exposed others. If that doesn’t warrant a sanction, I don’t know what would.



I have not, and will not, defend the students action. Similarly, I am not excusing the university. I’m glad we agree.

I’m not convinced the article is entirely accurate.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> I’m not going to excuse the the university for their response or the accommodations. But there are better ways to deal with the situation that taking a public mode of transportation and checking into a hotel, both likely violations of public health orders and worse putting many people in known danger.
> 
> I’m sure had the appropriate approach been made the food could have been remedied and the water situation improved (tap water in Iowa City is actually pretty good quality but does have a bit of iron in it).
> 
> I do think the biggest failing is that the school should have immediately assigned her a student care coordinator who could advocate for her and help keep her in a stable mental health frame.  I don’t think she was necessarily thinking rationally.
> 
> But it is clear from the article that options under the university policies were to either quarantine or go home to her parents. She did neither and as such breached the code of conduct for students.
> 
> Realistically she would not be expelled (and yes my suggestion is extreme, but I’ve seen suspensions given out for much lower infractions (usually involving alcohol). She has a known case of covid and exposed others. If that doesn’t warrant a sanction, I don’t know what would.



You could go to jail for what she did.


----------



## geekette

TravelTime said:


> Yes. And even now only about 35% of Americans have a basic college degree. It is still a privilege to go to college.


And even the privileged pull strings to get in (recent sentencing of famous rich people).

I'd like to see business pick up the tab for college vs taxpayer paid.  Business benefits from it and requires degree for jobs that don't need degrees.

My privilege was beginning work at age 15 and starting soph year hs, working full time.  which I did until I was sidelined by illness at age 53.   Others have the privilege of being good at sports or top grades.   

I was born into middle class, more privilege than some but wouldn't call it Privileged.


----------



## geekette

TravelTime said:


> Yes. And even now only about 35% of Americans have a basic college degree. It is still a privilege to go to college.


can you tell me where you found this stat?  I am very curious as to which Americans it is counting.   Many women of my mother's age did not go to school, it wasn't an option for them because they were female.  If the  stat is for all US citizens between age 25 and 55, it's quite disconcerting.  If it includes younger and older, well, ok, of course.


----------



## geekette

TravelTime said:


> The article says: “_She lugged some things to the bus stop and, 4 1/2 hours later, checked into the hotel room she's called home since. At this point, she's spent $700 between the bus ticket and the past few days in her hotel room. But, she said, she wasn't about to give the UI another night.”_
> 
> Overall, she sounds irresponsible. This is why Covid spreads and we can’t get it under control. People with Covid do not follow the rules. She probably gave it to so many people at school and on the bus.


she did what she was told and was put into a filthy place.   SHE was irresponsible?


----------



## geekette

jabberwocky said:


> This is why I wish I could hear from the university. Knowing how these things work, my guess is that UI does have an established protocol and some sort of response team/committee that has to be informed of incidents like this and decide how to triage.  Given the University was informed later in the evening on a weekend it can be tough to get a call put together by such a response team. There is generally too much bureaucracy in a university setting to make quick decisions.
> 
> It looks like part of the dorm she was sent to after diagnosis is set aside for any Covid cases - so being able to have her reassigned within four hours shows there is some sort of plan in place. Whether it is a good one - I don’t know. Plans are usually just as good as the people implementing them and you have a (probably new) RA who probably hasn’t had to deal with a case of Covid before.


If the plan includes feeding the quarantined cold rice, and a daily ration of 3 bottles of water, they do not have a good plan.


----------



## geekette

Ken555 said:


> Wow. Based on an article that you criticized, you’re okay reaching a judgment that she should be expelled? I doubt the article was completely accurate.
> 
> And the U needs better PR, not better services? I agree four hours of an initial response is fine in most circumstances, but the dirty rooms? Cold food? Only 3 bottles of water per day for a sick student? C’mon.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


schlep your stuff in the middle of the night would have been scary.    women get dead on campuses that way.   It was unreasonable to expect she could carry 14 days of whatever.   unassisted.  no cart, no nothing, on foot.


----------



## geekette

TravelTime said:


> You could go to jail for what she did.


what is the crime?


----------



## grupp

TravelTime said:


> You could go to jail for what she did.


So a young woman goes off to college and gets sick. She gets no support from her school or her family and is totally  alone and admitted makes some bad choices. So we blame her for the pandemic, expel her from school and put her in jail?

No wonder our country is in such a mess.


----------



## beejaybeeohio

Who needs Yahoo comments when we have TUG?


----------



## Cornell

grupp said:


> So a young woman goes off to college and gets sick. She gets no support from her school or her family and is totally  alone and admitted makes some bad choices. So we blame her for the pandemic, expel her from school and put her in jail?
> 
> No wonder our country is in such a mess.


Look at the official announcements of all these universities that are shutting down after “opening up” . Most lead with blaming the students.


----------



## DannyTS

*Coronavirus: Risk of car crash or seasonal flu greater to children than COVID-19 - expert*
Dr Jenny Harries told Sky News host Niall Paterson that *failing to bring pupils back to school in September would pose greater damage in the short, medium and long-term to children than the coronavirus*. Dr Harries added that no environment was completely risk free but that children faced a similar risk level pre-COVID-19 regarding the potential for road accidents to and from school.









						Coronavirus: Risk of road accident or seasonal flu greater to children
					

THE risk of seasonal flu or a road traffic accident poses a greater threat to children than COVID-19 according to the Deputy Chief Medical Officer for England.




					www.express.co.uk


----------



## DannyTS

The video does not seem to work in that article, it can be seen here


----------



## Cornell

My employer just scheduled a 5 hour online "workshop / conference" that I have to attend.  I immediately cringed at the email.  I cannot imagine doing this day after day after day .  This is what our students will be doing all year. 

Also, thinking of our youngest students (Ks & 1st graders).  Those early years are to foster a love of learning. It's not just about teaching reading and 1+1=2.   How can this possibly be accomplished being tethered to a desk all day staring at a computer screen?  The foundations of education are not being provided to our youngest.


----------



## Cornell

First day of school for many today and there is a .....GLOBAL ZOOM OUTAGE.


----------



## MULTIZ321

geekette said:


> can you tell me where you found this stat?  I am very curious as to which Americans it is counting.   Many women of my mother's age did not go to school, it wasn't an option for them because they were female.  If the  stat is for all US citizens between age 25 and 55, it's quite disconcerting.  If it includes younger and older, well, ok, of course.


Percentage of the U.S. population with a college degree, by gender 1940-2019.










						Percentage of the U.S. population with a college degree by gender 1940-2021 | Statista
					

In an impressive increase from years past, 39.1 percent of women in the United States had completed four years or more of college in 2021.




					www.statista.com
				





Richard


----------



## cman

Cornell said:


> First day of school for many today and there is a .....GLOBAL ZOOM OUTAGE.


LOL. I thought you were joking. My kids can't get on either.





__





						Zoom Status
					

Welcome to Zoom's home for real-time and historical data on system performance.




					status.zoom.us


----------



## Cornell

cman said:


> LOL. I thought you were joking. My kids can't get on either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zoom Status
> 
> 
> Welcome to Zoom's home for real-time and historical data on system performance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> status.zoom.us


No joke.  It's a FARCE!  I honestly don't understand why these schools are using Zoom.


----------



## TravelTime

geekette said:


> what is the crime?



Spreading Covid. She got on a bus knowing she had Covid and exposed a lot of people to it. It is not clear how many places she went on campus before getting on the bus.


----------



## TravelTime

geekette said:


> can you tell me where you found this stat?  I am very curious as to which Americans it is counting.   Many women of my mother's age did not go to school, it wasn't an option for them because they were female.  If the  stat is for all US citizens between age 25 and 55, it's quite disconcerting.  If it includes younger and older, well, ok, of course.











						Percentage of the U.S. population with a college degree by gender 1940-2021 | Statista
					

In an impressive increase from years past, 39.1 percent of women in the United States had completed four years or more of college in 2021.




					www.statista.com
				




It looks like it does not vary significantly by age.

_Younger Americans are more likely to have attained a four-year degree than older groups. Among Americans between the ages of 25 to 34, 37 percent have at least a bachelor’s degree. Among those 55 and older, just under 30 percent have a four-year degree._

It varies more by ethicity and race.

_Wide disparities in educational attainment still exist along racial lines, the Census shows. More than 37 percent of non-Hispanic white Americans have a college degree, while just 23 percent of African-Americans have reached the same level of formal education. Only 16.4 percent of Hispanic Americans have a college degree._









						Census: More Americans have college degrees than ever before
					

Just over a third of American adults have a four-year college degree, the highest level ever measured by the U.S. Census Bureau.In a report released Monday, the Census Bureau said 33.4 percent of A…




					thehill.com


----------



## TravelTime

​


grupp said:


> So a young woman goes off to college and gets sick. She gets no support from her school or her family and is totally  alone and admitted makes some bad choices. So we blame her for the pandemic, expel her from school and put her in jail?
> 
> No wonder our country is in such a mess.



In other TUG threads, people are saying those who spread Covid should be punished and held responsible. Now on this thread, people are saying differently. Maybe it is different people? Unless these people have schizophrenia. <joke>


----------



## needvaca

Cornell said:


> No joke.  It's a FARCE!  I honestly don't understand why these schools are using Zoom.


Yep. It’s our districts first day of school (and many other districts.) an hour in, we got an email from district on “ regional zoom outage”. 
Who didn’t see that coming?  Nothing could go wrong trying to have the whole country accessing one platform at the same time. 

Open the freaking schools!


----------



## TravelTime

grupp said:


> So a young woman goes off to college and gets sick. She gets no support from her school or her family and is totally  alone and admitted makes some bad choices. So we blame her for the pandemic, expel her from school and put her in jail?
> 
> No wonder our country is in such a mess.



BTW, I did not say she “should” go to jail. I said she “could” go to jail. Many people are saying that spreading Covid knowingly is a crime. If people know they have Covid and expose themselves to other people, many would consider this irresponsible regardless of the circumstances.

Frankly, I am more easy going about Covid and I do not personally judge her for not liking the dorm and finding a hotel. I am a prima donna too and I would have done the same exact thing. But if I had done what she did, I am sure many people would tell me I was irresponbile. I doubt I would get much sympathy.


----------



## Cornell

needvaca said:


> Yep. It’s our districts first day of school (and many other districts.) an hour in, we got an email from district on “ regional zoom outage”.
> Who didn’t see that coming?  Nothing could go wrong trying to have the whole country accessing one platform at the same time.
> 
> Open the freaking schools!


** THERE'S NOTHING TO SEE HERE !!!!  **

I know you are in the chicago suburbs . Have you seen the email from the Maine South principal that's going viral?


----------



## Ken555

This is making the rounds today on social media... serious issues in a humorous presentation (especially for you Hamilton fans!). Watch it.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1296603388235452416

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS

Cornell said:


> First day of school for many today and there is a .....GLOBAL ZOOM OUTAGE.


which means schools AND business are disrupted at the same time


----------



## Cornell

@DannyTS  - do businesses use Zoom?  Serious question , I don't know.


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> @DannyTS  - do businesses use Zoom?  Serious question , I don't know.



Yes, many businesses use Zoom. Prior to Covid, it was mostly used by businesses. We use Zoom in our business.


----------



## cman

Cornell said:


> @DannyTS  - do businesses use Zoom?  Serious question , I don't know.


Yes. We use it.


----------



## slip

Cornell said:


> @DannyTS  - do businesses use Zoom?  Serious question , I don't know.



We don’t where I work. We used WebEx for years and now recently switched over to Microsoft Teams.


----------



## Cornell

NEW CDC testing guidelines.














						Healthcare Workers
					

COVID-19 guidance, tools, and resources for healthcare workers.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## queenofthehive

At my work, we have used WebEx for years.


----------



## geekette

TravelTime said:


> Spreading Covid. She got on a bus knowing she had Covid and exposed a lot of people to it. It is not clear how many places she went on campus before getting on the bus.


Show me where that is illegal and who else has been charged with that crime.  The school told her to move about campus.   on foot.   with all her stuff.   True, that's before she decided to flee.

I would sooner charge school with negligence for not adequately seeing to a person known to be infected.


----------



## geekette

TravelTime said:


> BTW, I did not say she “should” go to jail. I said she “could” go to jail. Many people are saying that spreading Covid knowingly is a crime. If people know they have Covid and expose themselves to other people, many would consider this irresponsible regardless of the circumstances.
> 
> Frankly, I am more easy going about Covid and I do not personally judge her for not liking the dorm and finding a hotel. I am a prima donna too and I would have done the same exact thing. But if I had done what she did, I am sure many people would tell me I was irresponbile. I doubt I would get much sympathy.


the thing is, "many people are saying" does not make a law, cannot automatically result in criminal penalties.   We no longer accuse and burn witches.    

I don't think one would have to be a prima donna to ditch gross quarters.


----------



## geekette

One thing about this student story that we haven't dished about - telling her to Not tell her parents about being COVID positive.  

The young  lady contracts a deadly illness, and should not tell her parents?  I think whoever told her that should be fired.


----------



## geekette

queenofthehive said:


> At my work, we have used WebEx for years.


yes, WebEx for a really long time, never Zoom.


----------



## Cornell

The University of Iowa student appears in other Covid media stories....










						Students coming to the UI from Chicago share concerns about required travel quarantine
					

Some University of Iowa students from Illinois are worried about how Chicago’s mandatory quarantine on travelers will affect the people who plan to help them move to Iowa City. The Chicago Department of Health Commissioner Allison Arwady issued an Emergency Travel Order on July 2, requiring...




					dailyiowan.com
				




As an Iowa State graduate, I feel confident that the ISU would have handled this way better than UI.  Vet school vs. med school.


----------



## TravelTime

geekette said:


> the thing is, "many people are saying" does not make a law, cannot automatically result in criminal penalties.   We no longer accuse and burn witches.
> 
> I don't think one would have to be a prima donna to ditch gross quarters.



Okay, so maybe she should be burned like a witch. <joke to lighten this up>

The dorm sounds like my place in grad school in NYC. It had dirty water coming out of the faucets and roaches everywhere. When I walked to school in the early morning, I would pass by rats the size of small dogs bc I took a back entrance to school where there was a garbage dump. I had no choice but to stay there or quit school. I spent the entire semester on a list to move to a new apartment. I finally was granted it but the roaches followed me. LOL


----------



## geekette

TravelTime said:


> Okay, so maybe she should be burned like a witch. <joke to lighten this up>
> 
> The dorm sounds like my place in grad school in NYC. It had dirty water coming out of the faucets and roaches everywhere. When I walked to school in the early morning, I would pass by rats the size of small dogs bc I took a back entrance to school where there was a garbage dump. I had no choice but to stay there or quit school. I spent the entire semester on a list to move to a new apartment. I finally was granted it but the roaches followed me. LOL


ugh!   I lived in one seriously gross place when I was young and poor and at this point would choose my car instead.

yeah, roaches can follow.  best friend of my husband lived in an old beaten down trailer, roach infested.   the roaches were in the boxes he moved.  he was moving in with a lady that said his boxes stay outside.  he can go through them and clean every item before it enters the house.   

That ended up being a short term relationship, and I imagine there was roach encroach contributing to the downfall, as they aren't too respectful of patio vs interior rules.    

I had thought it normal that he always smelled like bug spray.  I mean, I'd be spraying for the creeps all the time if I couldn't move.  It was years before I found out that the smell was something he used on his hair.  He said it was aloe vera.   Perhaps I have never fully smelled aloe vera, and never will, if that's the aroma to expect.

I can understand how an apartment over a restaurant could be buggy, but student dorms should not be.   Paid student housing should be clean.   We saw the exterminator regularly.  smelled just like aloe vera ...  ; )


----------



## SmithOp

Cornell said:


> @DannyTS - do businesses use Zoom? Serious question , I don't know.



No, they use Cisco Webex.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## DannyTS

TravelTime said:


> Okay, so maybe she should be burned like a witch. <joke to lighten this up>
> 
> The dorm sounds like my place in grad school in NYC. It had dirty water coming out of the faucets and roaches everywhere. When I walked to school in the early morning, I would pass by rats the size of small dogs bc I took a back entrance to school where there was a garbage dump. I had no choice but to stay there or quit school. I spent the entire semester on a list to move to a new apartment. I finally was granted it but the roaches followed me. LOL


It seems the poor girl expected a Four Seasons experience. I think she was more upset about that than about Covid.


----------



## PigsDad

Cornell said:


> @DannyTS  - do businesses use Zoom?  Serious question , I don't know.


Yes, many do, but I think most larger businesses have alternative communication tools so they are not reliant on a single, outside-the-company, tool.  For example, my company has three different video conference tools that are all sanctioned tools (one of them being Zoom).  Some use company-owned servers (basically, our own "instance" of the tool, not relying on the outside company's servers), so we would not be affected by an outage by those companies.

Kurt


----------



## jabberwocky

Cornell said:


> No joke.  It's a FARCE!  I honestly don't understand why these schools are using Zoom.


If you have to teach online Zoom is probably the best platform currently available.  There is a high degree of control that the instructor has over the class and the breakout rooms are critical for getting some level of class interaction.  It's almost like they designed Zoom for online class delivery.


----------



## rosebud5

Isn't this a socially contentious issue. Why hasn't this been censored?


----------



## Cornell

DannyTS said:


> It seems the poor girl expected a Four Seasons experience. I think she was more upset about that than about Covid.


So I "know" this girl in the UI story.  I don't mean I know her personally but know the type.  There is a stereotype of Chicago suburban girls that go to Univ of Iowa.

And I'm allowed to poke a bit of fun @ her b/c I AM one --- Chicago suburban teenage girl that went to U of Iowa     (I had the sense to transfer hahahahaha)  

I belong to a group called Cyclone Nation (the Iowa Staters love to make fun of UI) and this story is getting analyzed up & down on there .


----------



## TravelTime

Cornell said:


> So I "know" this girl in the UI story.  I don't mean I know her personally but know the type.  There is a stereotype of Chicago suburban girls that go to Univ of Iowa.
> 
> And I'm allowed to poke a bit of fun @ her b/c I AM one --- Chicago suburban teenage girl that went to U of Iowa     (I had the sense to transfer hahahahaha)
> 
> I belong to a group called Cyclone Nation (the Iowa Staters love to make fun of UI) and this story is getting analyzed up & down on there .



What is the stereotype of a Chicago suburban girl that goes to UI? What is the Cyclone Nation saying about this story?


----------



## Cornell

@TravelTime The stereotype (I'm waiting for the haters to pile on , but remember TUGGERs -- I am one!) is those that aren't smart enough to go to Univ of Illinois.

Cyclone Nation is just making fun of the whole thing in a good natured, rivalry way.  Laughing at the fact that UI seemed so unprepared when they have a medical school there.


----------



## cman

I predict that things are not going to end well for the University of Iowa.









						Maskless students pack bars before University of Iowa classes resume
					

IOWA CITY – Just hours before University of Iowa students head back to class Monday for an unprecedented semester plagued …




					www.thegazette.com
				












						University of Iowa shares 111 self-reported cases of COVID-19
					

These numbers do not include data from UI Hospitals & Clinics.




					ktiv.com


----------



## Cornell

Young children frustrated and in tears over digital learning as parents try to adapt during coronavirus pandemic
					

The parents of young children across Georgia had a frustrating first day back to school as kids too young to understand the pandemic tried to learn online




					www.11alive.com


----------



## jabberwocky

I always thought the cutest girls at the U of Iowa came from the Chicago suburbs.  

But yes, there will always be a rivalry between the ‘clones and hawks. Personally, the debate is best settled on the football field.


----------



## cman

Cornell said:


> Young children frustrated and in tears over digital learning as parents try to adapt during coronavirus pandemic
> 
> 
> The parents of young children across Georgia had a frustrating first day back to school as kids too young to understand the pandemic tried to learn online
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.11alive.com


It is what it is. Parents and students are just going to have to adapt. My kids are frustrated as well with virtual learning. My goal as a parent is to get them to the point where they can maximize the tools available to them to achieve academic success. We can whine and complain about this forever, but the bottom line is that, many schools are not going to open for in person learning, and virtual learning is going to be the reality for many districts across the country. These kids are more resilient than we give them credit for. There are going to be a lot of kids who regress or are left behind, but most will rebound. Kid's have left school to fight wars. These kids are only being asked to study via the internet. They'll be fine.


----------



## Cornell

cman said:


> It is what it is. Parents and students are just going to have to adapt. My kids are frustrated as well with virtual learning. My goal as a parent is to get them to the point where they can maximize the tools available to them to achieve academic success. We can whine and complain about this forever, but the bottom line is that, many schools are not going to open for in person learning, and virtual learning is going to be the reality for many districts across the country. These kids are more resilient than we give them credit for. There are going to be a lot of kids who regress or are left behind, but most will rebound. Kid's have left school to fight wars. These kids are only being asked to study via the internet. They'll be fine.


I refuse to settle and accept the raw deal our kids are getting


----------



## Cornell

jabberwocky said:


> I always thought the cutest girls at the U of Iowa came from the Chicago suburbs.
> 
> But yes, there will always be a rivalry between the ‘clones and hawks. Personally, the debate is best settled on the football field.


My dad was the child of immigrants.  He managed to get himself through college at ISU through ROTC and a football scholarship.  He loved Iowa State so much b/c his scholarship gave him the opportunity to get a college education. 

Fast forward, I chose to go to UI and he just could not understand my choice.  (I transferred after a year).

I wound up going to Iowa State for grad school so it all came full circle.  ISU has been very good to my family.  And their football team broke my dad's heart many times over the years.


----------



## cman

Cornell said:


> I refuse to settle and accept the raw deal our kids are getting


It's a raw deal for those districts that closed with low infection rates, and a prudent decision for us that live in areas with a high infection rate. Regardless of the situation, the message to my kids is to do the best you can with the tools that you have. No need to whine about your situation, it's not going to make it better. Just use the tools that you have to do the best that you can. And again, these kids are much more resilient than we give them credit for. They're not going to be "damaged", my guess is that this thing will make them stronger.


----------



## jabberwocky

cman said:


> It's a raw deal for those districts that closed with low infection rates, and a prudent decision for us that live in areas with a high infection rate. Regardless of the situation, the message to my kids is to do the best you can with the tools that you have. No need to whine about your situation, it's not going to make it better. Just use the tools that you have to do the best that you can. And again, these kids are much more resilient than we give them credit for. They're not going to be "damaged", my guess is that this thing will make them stronger.


It is one thing to do the best with the tools you have, it is quite another thing to have tools actively taken away from you. Yes, kids are resilient and those that survive this will undoubtedly be stronger, the question is how many kids do we lose along the way.


----------



## cman

jabberwocky said:


> It is one thing to do the best with the tools you have, it is quite another thing to have tools actively taken away from you. Yes, kids are resilient and those that survive this will undoubtedly be stronger, the question is how many kids do we lose along the way.


If your tools are "actively taken away from you", then you do the best you can with the tools that you have. It's simple as that. We're in the midst of a pandemic. Never happened in my lifetime. My kids have never experienced anything like this either. So, we can gather up in a pity circle, give each other reassuring hugs, or we can get off our butts and do the best with what we have. The bottom line is that school is going to be virtual. That's the way it's going to be. So now your task is to figure out how you can get the best education with the tools provided to you. School started yesterday. The time to whine about it has passed.


----------



## Cornell

Chicago Public Schools charging $15K for VIRTUAL KINDERGARTEN.  Then you have to pay for "day care" on top of it.


_*CPS did not respond to a Tribune request for information related to tuition-based pre-K enrollment and what would happen to teachers who no longer have classes.*_










						CPS will charge thousands in tuition for virtual prekindergarten this fall — day care not included
					

CPS will charge about $1,500 a month for pre-kindergarten, but it's virtual this fall, so what do parents do about day care?




					www.chicagotribune.com


----------



## Cornell

This is great -- teens volunteering to help seniors in Montgomery County.

But if kids can have this physical proximity with our most vulnerable citizens, then why can't they be in school?


----------



## bluehende

Cornell said:


> This is great -- teens volunteering to help seniors in Montgomery County.
> 
> But if kids can have this physical proximity with our most vulnerable citizens, then why can't they be in school?
> 
> View attachment 25392


You honestly cannot see the difference between a grocery delivery and a school week?


----------



## Cornell

bluehende said:


> You honestly cannot see the difference between a grocery delivery and a school week?


Apparently I’m really stupid


----------



## bluehende

Cornell said:


> Apparently I’m really stupid


Playing the victim again but no comment on how a 2 minute contactless  delivery is the same as 30 hrs inside with close contact is the same thing.


----------



## Cornell

bluehende said:


> Playing the victim again but no comment on how a 2 minute contactless  delivery is the same as 30 hrs inside with close contact is the same thing.


Using condescension in your comments to me again .

Let's try this to illustrate the lack of logic in this whole situation:

>> My 17 year old daughter cannot visit her grandmother in her assisted living facility.  But she can work there as a meal server.

>> My school district is offering paid child care with district subs, 15 kids per classroom.  But no "actual school". 

This makes zero sense,  This isn't about public health anymore.


----------



## bluehende

Cornell said:


> Using condescension in your comments to me again .
> 
> Let's try this to illustrate the lack of logic in this whole situation:
> 
> >> My 17 year old daughter cannot visit her grandmother in her assisted living facility.  But she can work there as a meal server.
> 
> >> My school district is offering paid child care with district subs, 15 kids per classroom.  But no "actual school".
> 
> This makes zero sense,  This isn't about public health anymore.





bluehende said:


> but no comment on how a 2 minute contactless delivery is the same as 30 hrs inside with close contact is the same thing.


----------



## Cornell

'Pandemic pods' give kids space to learn, play
					

Monday marked the first day of school for thousands of students across the suburbs who are starting the new year the way they ended the last one: virtually. But rather than stay at home, a small number of them packed a lunch and brought their laptops and headphones to some of the new...




					www.dailyherald.com


----------



## Cornell

Can parents leave pre-teens home alone for remote learning?
					

SPRINGFIELD, Ill. (IRN) — More than 430,000 Illinois households with children under 14 may not have a parent who could stay home to supervise their online learning. For parents who decide their pre-teen is responsible enough to




					www.wjpf.com


----------



## rapmarks

Cornell said:


> Using condescension in your comments to me again .
> 
> Let's try this to illustrate the lack of logic in this whole situation:
> 
> >> My 17 year old daughter cannot visit her grandmother in her assisted living facility.  But she can work there as a meal server.
> 
> >> My school district is offering paid child care with district subs, 15 kids per classroom.  But no "actual school".
> 
> This makes zero sense,  This isn't about public health anymore.


Isn’t this the core of the problem. No sensible protocols


----------



## TravelTime

rapmarks said:


> Isn’t this the core of the problem. No sensible protocols



Yes I agree. There is no logic when it comes to Covid.


----------



## needvaca

Cornell said:


> Can parents leave pre-teens home alone for remote learning?
> 
> 
> SPRINGFIELD, Ill. (IRN) — More than 430,000 Illinois households with children under 14 may not have a parent who could stay home to supervise their online learning. For parents who decide their pre-teen is responsible enough to
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wjpf.com


No choice. Parents have to work. 
Schools should be open


----------



## Ken555

needvaca said:


> No choice. Parents have to work.
> Schools should be open



So school really is daycare, eh?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime

Interesting point of view from a parent.

———

_Until we actually know what’s happening, it’s impossible to make plans of any sort. I’m lucky enough to have some options, even if they are all terrible. I can move to the coronavirus hot spot where my retired parents live and get their help. I can go into debt to get my kids into learning pods, if I can find openings.

Yet when I lie in bed struggling to figure out how to balance physical risk, economic sustainability and emotional well-being, I can’t make the equation work. And if I can’t do it, I’m not sure how parents with far fewer resources are doing it either.

A friend who works in chronically underfunded city high schools pointed out that privileged parents like me are getting a taste of something that other urban parents have always gone through. No matter what I do — no matter how much futile energy I spend trying to think my way out of this — an adequate public education is now out of reach for my family, and I’m not quite sure how to secure a private one. I’m one of many relatively rich people experiencing what poor people experience all the time — total abandonment by our government.

Recently I ran into an acquaintance, a psychotherapist named Lesley Alderman, who told me that among her patients, those with young children were generally struggling the most. “Parents with young kids, they’re tearing their hair out,” she told me. Many of them, she said, “want their kids desperately to go back to school, and then there’s this kind of guilt: ‘Am I selfish for wanting this? Am I putting my kids in jeopardy? Are we putting the teachers in jeopardy?’”

These aren’t dilemmas that individuals should have to solve. “Why isn’t the government, particularly here in New York City, helping the schools, funding the schools properly, so that the schools can be a safe place where their kids can go?” asks Alderman. Though parents are blaming themselves for not being able to make their lives work, she said, “Someone failed them.”.

When safety and education are so profoundly privatized, when even the meager social supports America once offered to families simply disappear, panic and self-recrimination result. There are only two ways out of pandemic-driven insecurity: great personal wealth or a functioning government. Right now, many of us who’d thought we were insulated from American precarity are finding out just how frightening the world can be when you don’t have either._


----------



## needvaca

Ken555 said:


> So school really is daycare, eh?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Nope. “School” is an essential service. 
If School employees, aka teachers, were able to 100% serve their “customers” aka students age 5-13 in a remote way, then all would be fine. BUT THEY ARE NOT!  It requires another adult employee/IT director/parent/whoever to facilitate the learning. Hence, teachers are not doing their full job. 
If Other workers were not doing their full job, they would be fired. GET IT?
I’m taking one of my few PTO days today to help “teach my kids” in their first week of school. 
My kids will be home alone, and unfortunately  the remote setup is not even 50% conducive to them “learning” at home. 

Ken- do you have school age children at home?  
So many people have OPINIONS, with no school age kids


----------



## Cornell

needvaca said:


> Nope. “School” is an essential service.
> If School employees, aka teachers, were able to 100% serve their “customers” aka students age 5-13 in a remote way, then all would be fine. BUT THEY ARE NOT!  It requires another adult employee/IT director/parent/whoever to facilitate the learning. Hence, teachers are not doing their full job.
> If Other workers were not doing their full job, they would be fired. GET IT?
> I’m taking one of my few PTO days today to help “teach my kids” in their first week of school.
> My kids will be home alone, and unfortunately  the remote setup is not even 50% conducive to them “learning” at home.
> 
> Ken- do you have school age children at home?
> So many people have OPINIONS, with no school age kids


And remember -- kids don't have a "voice" in society whereas full blown adults do. 

And if I choose to advocate for children (because someone has to!) then I'm "whining".


----------



## geist1223

I am just so happy all my kids are out of college and my GKids are too young for school.


----------



## Ken555

needvaca said:


> Nope. “School” is an essential service.
> If School employees, aka teachers, were able to 100% serve their “customers” aka students age 5-13 in a remote way, then all would be fine. BUT THEY ARE NOT!  It requires another adult employee/IT director/parent/whoever to facilitate the learning. Hence, teachers are not doing their full job.
> If Other workers were not doing their full job, they would be fired.



What do you think we would have done had this pandemic hit in the 1980s, before the internet? I suspect we would have tried more of the tactics used in the early 1900s (outdoor lessons regardless of weather, small groups with distancing, etc). It could also have simply been a lost year or two, which obviously is seriously detrimental to learning growth...though it may happen this year for some, regardless how much we try to prevent it.



> GET IT?



Actually, I got it months ago, but I understand you're upset. That's reasonable.



> I’m taking one of my few PTO days today to help “teach my kids” in their first week of school.
> My kids will be home alone, and unfortunately  the remote setup is not even 50% conducive to them “learning” at home.



Not ideal.



> Ken- do you have school age children at home?
> So many people have OPINIONS, with no school age kids



No, I don't. And while I am sympathetic for the pain you and others are going through, trying to dismiss the vast majority of us who don't have kids at home who are trying to help in any way we can by even asking the question is inappropriate (and now "the haters" will undoubtedly attack me for writing this). I see both sides, and the outspoken parents in this thread *only* see their perspective, with occasional concern about the valid points from the teachers and others. Don't blame me for repeating the obvious... it's unsafe in most schools right now for a variety of reasons. No question people will continue to get sick (children and their families) if we have anything close to a "normal" school experience.

I wrote months ago that school issues and lack of education would be an inevitable outcome from an unprepared, unsupported, and even threatened education system without full governmental and community support. Here we are... it didn't take a rocket scientist to predict what is happening now, especially in regards to community spread in schools. It's really a shame. We could have done so much better.

I understand you're angry and upset, probably at the education system, your children's teachers, and many others. I am, too, though perhaps for different reasons. This isn't going to be easy for anyone and blaming each other for having an opinion isn't going to help. 

Still, it seems clear to me that for many, school is really little more than daycare, especially for working parents with young children. Those are the people I have the most sympathy for at the moment, since older children (middle/junior high and high school) should be fine with virtual education assuming they have the resources for it. Naturally, there are negative social implications for virtual learning.


----------



## bogey21

Cornell said:


> Pandemic-pods-give-kids-space-to-learn-play...



What is the cost?

George


----------



## TravelTime

People who call other people “haters” are showing their values. That is such a derogatory term.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> People who call other people “haters” are showing their values. That is such a derogatory term.



Perhaps you should have commented when you were mentioned in this earlier post, eh?



Cornell said:


> @TravelTime The stereotype (I'm waiting for the haters to pile on , but remember TUGGERs -- I am one!) is those that aren't smart enough to go to Univ of Illinois.


----------



## PigsDad

Ken555 said:


> *I see both sides, and the outspoken parents in this thread *only* see their perspective*, with occasional concern about the valid points from the teachers and others.


So you're perfect and see both sides.  Got it.  Thanks for clarifying that for the rest of us mouth-breathers.

Kurt


----------



## needvaca

needvaca said:


> Nope. “School” is an essential service.
> If School employees, aka teachers, were able to 100% serve their “customers” aka students age 5-13 in a remote way, then all would be fine. BUT THEY ARE NOT!  It requires another adult employee/IT director/parent/whoever to facilitate the learning. Hence, teachers are not doing their full job.
> If Other workers were not doing their full job, they would be fired. GET IT?
> I’m taking one of my few PTO days today to help “teach my kids” in their first week of school.
> My kids will be home alone, and unfortunately  the remote setup is not even 50% conducive to them “learning” at home.
> 
> Ken- do you have school age children at home?
> So many people have OPINIONS, with no school age kids
> [/QUO





Ken555 said:


> What do you think we would have done had this pandemic hit in the 1980s, before the internet? I suspect we would have tried more of the tactics used in the early 1900s (outdoor lessons regardless of weather, small groups with distancing, etc). It could also have simply been a lost year or two, which obviously is seriously detrimental to learning growth...though it may happen this year for some, regardless how much we try to prevent it.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I got it months ago, but I understand you're upset. That's reasonable.
> 
> 
> 
> Not ideal.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don't. And while I am sympathetic for the pain you and others are going through, trying to dismiss the vast majority of us who don't have kids at home who are trying to help in any way we can by even asking the question is inappropriate (and now "the haters" will undoubtedly attack me for writing this). I see both sides, and the outspoken parents in this thread *only* see their perspective, with occasional concern about the valid points from the teachers and others. Don't blame me for repeating the obvious... it's unsafe in most schools right now for a variety of reasons. No question people will continue to get sick (children and their families) if we have anything close to a "normal" school experience.
> 
> I wrote months ago that school issues and lack of education would be an inevitable outcome from an unprepared, unsupported, and even threatened education system without full governmental and community support. Here we are... it didn't take a rocket scientist to predict what is happening now, especially in regards to community spread in schools. It's really a shame. We could have done so much better.
> 
> I understand you're angry and upset, probably at the education system, your children's teachers, and many others. I am, too, though perhaps for different reasons. This isn't going to be easy for anyone and blaming each other for having an opinion isn't going to help.
> 
> Still, it seems clear to me that for many, school is really little more than daycare, especially for working parents with young children. Those are the people I have the most sympathy for at the moment, since older children (middle/junior high and high school) should be fine with virtual education assuming they have the resources for it. Naturally, there are negative social implications for virtual learning.


Not bashing you at all Ken. 
I was just trying to convey what parents and school kids are feeling, because our needs are being subverted entirely.  I have 4 kids, grade school, middle and high. And they are all suffering in multitudes of different ways. The mental/psychological impact is as important as physical, which is why we parents, who love our kids more than anything, need them back in "school" at least hybrid- 85% of us around Chicagoland, NY,, CT,  Arizona, Ohio, MD (I have many friends around the country and the % is similar in all metro areas.)
My middle kid is an introvert and about the easiest kid you'll ever encounter. With no complaints ever. She told me today (after a couple days in zoom school)  "I really really miss people"  
There are so many untried solutions- hybrid, outdoor classrooms, kids at desks with teachers moving classrooms, converting gyms/libraries/auditoriums etc to extra class space so kids can spread out. 
Why the heck didn't the US start school with outdoor classrooms for Aug, Sept,Oct?  
School districts are offering NO CREATIVE SOLUTIONS, because zoom is the easy, brainless answer.  Even my friends who are teachers say we should reopen. 

We need a US initiative to promote MASKS, MASKS, MASKS. 
Public service announcements on evening news, on Saturday cartoons, everywhere!


----------



## MULTIZ321

Nearly 9,000 Florida Children Diagnosed With Coronavirus in Two Weeks as Schools Reopen 



			https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-9000-florida-children-diagnosed-coronavirus-two-weeks-schools-reopen-1527587?utm_source=Flipboard&utm_medium=App&utm_campaign=Partnerships
		

.


Richard


----------



## Brett

needvaca said:


> Not bashing you at all Ken.
> 
> 
> *We need a US initiative to promote MASKS, MASKS, MASKS.*
> Public service announcements on evening news, on Saturday cartoons, everywhere!



*We need a US initiative to promote MASKS, MASKS, MASKS.*

I think that's been done ..


----------



## needvaca

MULTIZ321 said:


> Nearly 9,000 Florida Children Diagnosed With Coronavirus in Two Weeks as Schools Reopen
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-9000-florida-children-diagnosed-coronavirus-two-weeks-schools-reopen-1527587?utm_source=Flipboard&utm_medium=App&utm_campaign=Partnerships
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> Richard


Yep, infections were expected, because Florida, Georgia, TN, SC, other southern states have NO MASK MANDATE!!!  
They are like a different world from IL, NY.  

When are people gonna learn that there is direct correlation between No mask mandates and Covid outbreaks?


----------



## needvaca

Brett said:


> *We need a US initiative to promote MASKS, MASKS, MASKS.*
> 
> I think that's been done ..


No. No it hasn't, when top leadership isn't promoting it and states haven't required it. 
So many people STILL not wearing masks. Tell me why that is?  Am I missing something?


----------



## Brett

needvaca said:


> No. No it hasn't, when top leadership isn't promoting it and states haven't required it.
> So many people STILL not wearing masks. Tell me why that is?  Am I missing something?



in Virginia it seems everyone is wearing a mask (indoors)  but "top national leadership" -  maybe they aren't wearing masks in Sweden


----------



## Ken555

needvaca said:


> Not bashing you at all Ken.



No worries. I completely understand.



> There are so many untried solutions- hybrid, outdoor classrooms, kids at desks with teachers moving classrooms, converting gyms/libraries/auditoriums etc to extra class space so kids can spread out.
> 
> Why the heck didn't the US start school with outdoor classrooms for Aug, Sept,Oct?



I asked this question here months ago. IIRC, I even included a link to an article about what was done in the early 1900s during another epidemic and the response was that we can't do outdoor in the heat/cold/etc. I doubt I expressed myself sufficiently, but I was amazed that even during a pandemic it seems many are not able to comprehend that some discomfort (heat/cold/etc) may be necessary in order to have a safe educational environment.

FWIW, I know of at least one that setup outdoor tents.



> School districts are offering NO CREATIVE SOLUTIONS, because zoom is the easy, brainless answer.



I have no doubt there is some truth to this. However, it also provides what no other solution does - guaranteed safety against C19.



> Even my friends who are teachers say we should reopen.



We all know teachers who want to be in their classrooms. That goes without saying. But there are also a not so insignificant number of teachers who must be careful of their own health and simply cannot return to the classroom right now.



> We need a US initiative to promote MASKS, MASKS, MASKS.
> Public service announcements on evening news, on Saturday cartoons, everywhere!



Yes


----------



## Ken555

needvaca said:


> No. No it hasn't, when top leadership isn't promoting it and states haven't required it.
> So many people STILL not wearing masks. Tell me why that is?  Am I missing something?



You're not missing anything. It's representative of America in 2020...wearing masks became a political issue.


----------



## Cornell

@needvaca Your TUG handle could not be more appropriate right now. Sounds like you DO need a vacation .


----------



## Ken555

PigsDad said:


> So you're perfect and see both sides.  Got it.  Thanks for clarifying that for the rest of us mouth-breathers.
> 
> Kurt



I'm really not sure why you are so offensive, but you are. Was this post really necessary?


----------



## Ken555

needvaca said:


> Yep, infections were expected, because Florida, Georgia, TN, SC, other southern states have NO MASK MANDATE!!!
> They are like a different world from IL, NY.
> 
> When are people gonna learn that there is direct correlation between No mask mandates and Covid outbreaks?



It's really quite unbelievable that so many people dispute the benefits of wearing masks and adhering to social distancing.


----------



## TravelTime

Why Boys Might Be Weathering the Pandemic Better Than Girls
					

Online videogames have been a much-needed social outlet for many boys during the coronavirus shutdown, but how can parents tell if all that gaming is turning into a problem?




					www.wsj.com
				




_Videogame-playing has soared during the pandemic, with the major game developers reporting record sales. During a one-week period in March, after the coronavirus was declared a pandemic, U.S. videogame usage on Verizon networks increased by 75%, according to the telecom._


----------



## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> So school really is daycare, eh?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Frankly Ken, this is the worst question ever asked during this pandemic, you sound like you have not been around parents with kids in a very long time. Do you really think you understand both sides as you claim?


----------



## jabberwocky

cman said:


> If your tools are "actively taken away from you", then you do the best you can with the tools that you have. It's simple as that. We're in the midst of a pandemic. Never happened in my lifetime. My kids have never experienced anything like this either. So, we can gather up in a pity circle, give each other reassuring hugs, or we can get off our butts and do the best with what we have. The bottom line is that school is going to be virtual. That's the way it's going to be. So now your task is to figure out how you can get the best education with the tools provided to you. School started yesterday. The time to whine about it has passed.


Sorry. I don’t give up so easily and refuse to be a victim of circumstance.


----------



## PigsDad

Ken555 said:


> I'm really not sure why you are so offensive, but you are. Was this post really necessary?


How was that offensive?  I was just agreeing with _your words_ where you said you see both sides.  It was a complement if anything.  If you don't believe those words, why did you post them?

Kurt


----------



## Cornell

jabberwocky said:


> Sorry. I don’t give up so easily and refuse to be a victim of circumstance.


Exactly. My daughter and her education are worth fighting for. I’m not just going to accept this.


----------



## DeniseM

I'm going to try something new:  I'm going to give this thread a time-out until tomorrow.  I will reopen it tomorrow and maybe it will behave better after a cooling off period.  Please be aware that I am on the West Coast and my morning is later than your morning.  

*Look at it this way: Now you have the whole night to think of something to post that is deep and meaningful, and NICE!


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## DeniseM

Time out is over - can't wait for all of the deep, meaningful, and NICE posts!


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## Cornell

*The shortages will exacerbate inequality among well-off students and less advantaged ones, said Tammy Hershfield, founder and board chair of Computers 2 Kids, a San Diego nonprofit that provides refurbished computers free or at discounted prices to children and organizations in need. *

I am also hearing from my suburban mom-friends that inexpensive home printers are next to impossible to find.  









						Remote Learning Without a Laptop? Thousands Could Be Stuck Without Devices Due to Shortage
					

Tens of thousands of students across the U.S. are facing the prospect of starting school over the coming weeks without the computers needed for remote classes.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## TravelTime

I read that Germany is reopening schools in person and doing a good job so far. 









						Almost 500 Million Children Are Cut Off From School in Pandemic, Report Says (Published 2020)
					

The Justice Department is considering an investigation of nursing-home outbreaks in four Democratic-led states, including New York. California makes a deal to more than double testing capacity.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Luanne

Meanwhile in South Korea.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia...R0Z_iHgoYtAERpJu6kanTkktMFeMkrEAisoZQ1tVSlLi0


----------



## Luanne

And closer to home.....Florida.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-...DpU9BIuu-SRYNzCOM8DHnuWRR4eGMa3VWlj5tefJT-qZo


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## bogey21

Maybe smaller schools with small class sizes could reopen.  As I reported earlier my Daughter's 3 kids have been going to school on site for over 2 weeks now with no problems.  I'm not sure of the actual size of the school but it does cover kindergarten through 12th grade.  She tells me there are a lot of rules but that everyone understand and follow them.  So maybe small schools could reopen safely with large schools going remote.  Just a thought...

George


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## TravelTime

A lot of private schools are opening with small class size and a lot of rules.


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## Brett

Luanne said:


> Meanwhile in South Korea.
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53901707?at_custom4=AA597668-E6BD-11EA-B337-267D96E8478F&at_custom2=facebook_page&at_custom3=BBC+News&at_medium=custom7&at_custom1=[post+type]&at_campaign=64&fbclid=IwAR32d06wI0YpeLR0Z_iHgoYtAERpJu6kanTkktMFeMkrEAisoZQ1tVSlLi0




Meanwhile in New Zealand 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12359784


----------



## bnoble

bogey21 said:


> Maybe smaller schools with small class sizes could reopen.


My brother, who lives in the Boston suburbs, is moving one of his kids from an (all-online) public school to a private one that has a class size of 20 with two teachers, divided into two "pods" of 10 students plus one teacher. Each day, one pod is in the building while the other is online.


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## Cornell

__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## MULTIZ321

School Tells Parents in Late- Night Text That All 
Kindergarteners Must Quarantine for Two Weeks 



			https://www.newsweek.com/school-tells-parents-late-night-text-that-all-kindergarteners-must-quarantine-two-weeks-1528039?utm_source=Flipboard&utm_medium=App&utm_campaign=Partnerships
		

.

Richard


----------



## SteelerGal

We are reopening 9/8 hybrid for elementary.  If infections continue to lower, middle school and high school will reopen throughout Sept.  I believe Hybrid is our best option and now we need to get businesses to agree as well.  Working parents can not be uninvolved in our children’s schooling.  We are now required to be parent/teacher.


----------



## Cornell

Anti-Semitic hackers hijack NYC high school’s Zoom meeting
					

The principal of New Dorp High School was in the middle of an online presentation to roughly 300 parents at 3:10 pm when an intruder suddenly posted large swastikas across the screen.




					nypost.com


----------



## TravelTime

I was speaking to a parent today in the Bay Area. He said his kids are going to 6 hours of after school care every day (12-6) on the school campus. It is a program they pay extra for. It combines school and after school activities but it is not taught by teachers. His kids have three 30-min Zoom calls in the morning taught by teachers. He is concerned about his kids falling behind. He says it is very stressful to teach when he does not know how to teach. One of his boys (age 7 and 9) attends his video lessons in his underwear and does not get dressed until it is time to go to after school care. He said he would be willing to sign a Covid waiver so his kids could be back in regular school all day. He said it is worth the risk to him at this point. He said he was onboard with online school in the beginning but not anymore. He does not understand why they can have the after school program but not regular classes. I asked if the after school program is taught by teachers and he said no. I said that is why.


----------



## TravelTime

Another problem with school closings.









						Reopened Schools Find Health Risks in Water After Covid-19 Lockdowns (Published 2020)
					

A number of schools found the bacteria that causes Legionnaires’ disease in their water, and experts say more should expect to see it.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## PigsDad

TravelTime said:


> One of his boys (age 7 and 9) attends his video lessons in his underwear and does not get dressed until it is time to go to after school care.


Ok, that is purely a parenting issue, IMO.  A parent should set appropriate expectations for online school (getting dressed, having a set place to "work", etc.) and follow up to ensure the child is doing what is expected of them.

Kurt


----------



## WVBaker

Maryland Gov Larry Hogan authorizes all counties to reopen schools

"There is broad and overwhelming agreement that finding a way to begin safely returning children to classrooms must be a priority. *There is no substitute for in-person instruction"*









						Maryland Gov Larry Hogan authorizes all counties to reopen schools
					

Maryland Governor Larry Hogan announced on Thursday that all schools in the state had authorization to reopen.




					www.fox5dc.com


----------



## TravelTime

PigsDad said:


> Ok, that is purely a parenting issue, IMO.  A parent should set appropriate expectations for online school (getting dressed, having a set place to "work", etc.) and follow up to ensure the child is doing what is expected of them.
> 
> Kurt



I agree but I bet a lot of people are having "parenting" issues they did not have before when the kids had a routine and structure. For example, video game playing has soared during the pandemic.

P.S. I do not wear shoes for business calls and sometimes I wear my workout clothes (but look okay from the waist up). I do not dress the way I would dress if I were meeting clients in person. I would just wear underwear on the bottom but I am afraid I might stand up by mistake.


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## Cornell

This might be one of the most absurd / maddening examples of the school ridiculousness that I have seen. Local park district here in suburban Chicago charging $1000 / month / child for supervised remote learning.  But what's incredible is that the remote learning sites are *IN THE SCHOOLS THAT ARE CLOSED.  *
Students will be physically seated in common areas supervised by park district staff.  The teachers in these schools are teaching from empty classrooms in the same building. 

Isn't this awfully confusing to little Johnnie when he sees his Teacher X in the hallway or walking into the school, but he can't be physically near Teacher X who will be teaching him in a few mins?  But the other adults are ok to be physically near? How does 6 year old Johnnie reconcile this in his brain?  
It is honestly just the most absurd thing .  

Even though my daughter is not enrolled in public school any more (thank God) I will continue to go to school board meetings to go on the public record pressing them about these arrangements.  I am still a concerned citizen.


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## SteelerGal

TravelTime said:


> I was speaking to a parent today in the Bay Area. He said his kids are going to 6 hours of after school care every day (12-6) on the school campus. It is a program they pay extra for. It combines school and after school activities but it is not taught by teachers. His kids have three 30-min Zoom calls in the morning taught by teachers. He is concerned about his kids falling behind. He says it is very stressful to teach when he does not know how to teach. One of his boys (age 7 and 9) attends his video lessons in his underwear and does not get dressed until it is time to go to after school care. He said he would be willing to sign a Covid waiver so his kids could be back in regular school all day. He said it is worth the risk to him at this point. He said he was onboard with online school in the beginning but not anymore. He does not understand why they can have the after school program but not regular classes. I asked if the after school program is taught by teachers and he said no. I said that is why.


Depending on which County, the County decides if SD can apply for the Elementary waiver.  This is what our SD and now more in our County are applying even though we are close to getting off the list.  
I would be in the same situation but I decided to hire in a college student tutor.


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## SteelerGal

Cornell said:


> This might be one of the most absurd / maddening examples of the school ridiculousness that I have seen. Local park district here in suburban Chicago charging $1000 / month / child for supervised remote learning.  But what's incredible is that the remote learning sites are *IN THE SCHOOLS THAT ARE CLOSED.  *
> Students will be physically seated in common areas supervised by park district staff.  The teachers in these schools are teaching from empty classrooms in the same building.
> 
> Isn't this awfully confusing to little Johnnie when he sees his Teacher X in the hallway or walking into the school, but he can't be physically near Teacher X who will be teaching him in a few mins?  But the other adults are ok to be physically near? How does 6 year old Johnnie reconcile this in his brain?
> It is honestly just the most absurd thing .
> 
> Even though my daughter is not enrolled in public school any more (thank God) I will continue to go to school board meetings to go on the public record pressing them about these arrangements.  I am still a concerned citizen.
> 
> View attachment 25536


Most States have different requirements for daycare and daycare providers not being unionized, this is what you get.

My SD has had a District run program forever that often will employ teachers as well as IAs.  My daughters old BI also worked at the daycare program.


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## Cornell

SteelerGal said:


> Most States have different requirements for daycare and daycare providers are not unionized, this is what you get.


100% -- but the fact that this nonsense is occurring in the school building themselves is some incredible chutzpah.  I thought there were all kinds of dangers of the HVAC systems.  That's what the teachers keep maintaining here.  So if the HVAC systems are giant Covid transmitters, how is any of this safe?  And again, so confusing for young children.


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## Cornell

School Reopening Has Turned Political, And Teachers Feel The Pressure
					

Teachers who are concerned about returning for in-person school because of the health risks are being met with hostility by some parents.




					www.wbez.org


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## WVBaker

TravelTime said:


> I agree but I bet a lot of people are having "parenting" issues they did not have before when the kids had a routine and structure. For example, video game playing has soared during the pandemic.
> 
> P.S. I do not wear shoes for business calls and sometimes I wear my workout clothes (but look okay from the waist up). I do not dress the way I would dress if I were meeting clients in person. I would just wear underwear on the bottom but I am afraid I might stand up by mistake.



Just place an "R" rating prior to the call. You'll be fine.


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## Ken555

I’m a College Freshman Who Moved Into Campus. Now I Have COVID-19.
I lasted two weeks in the dorms.









						I’m a College Freshman Who Moved Into Campus. Now I Have COVID-19.
					

I lasted two weeks in the dorms.




					slate.com
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Cornell

Ken555 said:


> I’m a College Freshman Who Moved Into Campus. Now I Have COVID-19.
> I lasted two weeks in the dorms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’m a College Freshman Who Moved Into Campus. Now I Have COVID-19.
> 
> 
> I lasted two weeks in the dorms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> slate.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


College doesn't sound like a very good experience this year from the stories I"m hearing.


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## Ken555

Cornell said:


> College doesn't sound like a very good experience this year from the stories I"m hearing.



Sadly, yes. A friend told me her daughter could have written this article as it was a similar experience to her own. Within the first week or so it became apparent college wasn’t going to work out, so she made other plans, returned home, and is currently in isolation while taking classes online.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Brett

College is starting to look like fun --  and crazy 





Some college students will spend this semester in their childhood bedrooms. Others are taking their chances on campuses.

Then, there’s a third option: Rent a giant house with friends and take remote classes from a far-flung locale. It’s an adventure, it’s potentially cheaper than living in a college town and it’s more fun than Zooming from your parents’ basement.

The houses range from lavish mansions to budget-friendly solutions.
*https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/28/us/coronavirus-college-housing-legionella.html*


----------



## Cornell

Brett said:


> College is starting to look like fun --  and crazy
> 
> View attachment 25562
> 
> Some college students will spend this semester in their childhood bedrooms. Others are taking their chances on campuses.
> 
> Then, there’s a third option: Rent a giant house with friends and take remote classes from a far-flung locale. It’s an adventure, it’s potentially cheaper than living in a college town and it’s more fun than Zooming from your parents’ basement.
> 
> The houses range from lavish mansions to budget-friendly solutions.
> *https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/28/us/coronavirus-college-housing-legionella.html*


My friend's son is doing this.  When they found out that all classes would be remote , campus living seemed like a waste of time.  And the kids didn't want to be doing all the university testing and having movements tracked with an app.  Group of 8 rented a place in Breckenridge for a few months and are taking their classes from there.


----------



## bogey21

Cornell said:


> College doesn't sound like a very good experience this year from the stories I"m hearing.


Many weeks ago I said if I was a college student who had completed their core courses, I would sit out the year.  I feel that way now more than ever.  If I still needed some core courses, I would see if I could take them online at a Junior College.   IMO College is quasi worthless without personal interaction with both professors and fellow students.  I don't know how many times back in my college days when some of us would have difficulties of one kind or another in a class we would get together, sit down in a quiet place and work through it together....

George


----------



## Cornell

bogey21 said:


> Many weeks ago I said if I was a college student who had completed their core courses, I would sit out the year.  I feel that way now more than ever.  If I still needed some core courses, I would see if I could take them online at a Junior College.   IMO College is quasi worthless without personal interaction with both professors and fellow students.  I don't know how many times back in my college days when some of us would have difficulties of one kind or another in a class we would get together, sit down in a quiet place and work through it together....
> 
> George


Completely agree.  However, many families have felt a "bait & switch" happen w/the colleges.  Were led to believe it was going to be a fairly normal experience this fall but then a week or two before classes began the rug was pulled out from under them.  Secondly, if you are an upperclassmen, JUCO really isn't an option anymore.


----------



## bogey21

Cornell said:


> Secondly, if you are an upperclassmen, JUCO really isn't an option anymore.



That's why If I were an upperclassman and had completed all my core courses, I would sit out the year.  IMO the time off can be a plus...

Understand I'm coming at this based on my own quest for a degree.  Although I was an A- student it took me 15 years, 9 Universities and a lot of starts and stops along the way before getting my degree.  Missing months and years along the way not only didn't hurt but I believe the downtime actually helped.  For the record  I graduated from High School in 1953 and College in 1968...

George


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## jabberwocky

And just to make this thread even more exciting - here is a news article about the innovation in detecting coronavirus on campus: poop. (May be behind paywall).



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/28/arizona-coronavirus-wastewater-testing/?outputType=amp
		


“As 5,000 students prepared for move-in day at the University of Arizona this week, the school warned they would be tested periodically for the coronavirus. One test, though, doesn’t involve a nose swab. The university is regularly screening the sewage from each dorm, searching for traces of the virus.
On Thursday, officials said the technique worked — and possibly prevented a sizable outbreak on campus. When a wastewater sample from one dorm came back positive this week, the school quickly tested all 311 people who live and work there and found two asymptomatic students who tested positive. They were quickly quarantined.
“With this early detection, we jumped on it right away, tested those youngsters, and got them the appropriate isolation where they needed to be,” said Richard Carmona, a former U.S. surgeon general who is directing the school’s reentry task force, in a news conference.”


----------



## Monykalyn

Cornell said:


> This might be one of the most absurd / maddening examples of the school ridiculousness that I have seen. Local park district here in suburban Chicago charging $1000 / month / child for supervised remote learning.  But what's incredible is that the remote learning sites are *IN THE SCHOOLS THAT ARE CLOSED.  *
> Students will be physically seated in common areas supervised by park district staff.  The teachers in these schools are teaching from empty classrooms in the same building.
> 
> Isn't this awfully confusing to little Johnnie when he sees his Teacher X in the hallway or walking into the school, but he can't be physically near Teacher X who will be teaching him in a few mins?  But the other adults are ok to be physically near? How does 6 year old Johnnie reconcile this in his brain?
> It is honestly just the most absurd thing .
> 
> Even though my daughter is not enrolled in public school any more (thank God) I will continue to go to school board meetings to go on the public record pressing them about these arrangements.  I am still a concerned citizen.
> 
> View attachment 25536


What ? you mean a _financial incentive_ to NOT have classes back?? hmmm our "task force" to determine the school plan for fall (largest school district in state) was made up of CEO of the 2 hospitals, health commissioner, mayor, infectious disease doctors and _supposedly_ teachers. (Teachers actually got handed the "plan" 2 weeks prior to school starting). District wide polling of parents, who overwhelmingly wanted 5 days of seated classes. We got a STUPID hybrid instead. Oh-and a CEO of one of the hospitals is converting the employee rec center (which had been losing money for years) into a "school care center" for parents who work on days their elementary kid is doing their part of online classes. OF COURSE the employees will be charged for this "extraordinary effort the hospital is providing" to these parents. Same CEO who jumped onto opportunity to finish out a floor in a new tower for the "surge" of covid patients using "free" state money and very large business donations. A 51 bed unit that now IS being used due to "record numbers" of  covid patients being admitted.(yeah "record number because we've had so very few until now). Total of 90 patients between two major hospitals that serve a community with surrounding areas of nearly a million people. _SO OVERWHELMED!!_ 
Teacher friends (in my state and others) are exhausted already trying to do basically TWO FT jobs at once-preparing the online and grading online portion, while ALSO conducting in person classes 4 days a week and grading those PLUS being available to conferences as needed daily (one day is ALL virtual to allow for "deep cleaning"-because THAT is primary avenue of spread). 
My son has been done with his online assignments each day within an 1.5 hours. It is the first week. It has GOT to get better. IF this community is waiting until ZERO cases ever again then they are all complete and utter idiots.  We've actually got little community spread, hospitals are easily handling any "surges", we have a mask ordinance that seems to be working-why on EARTH can kids not go back 5 days a week?? oh-ALL the surrounding school districts are seated 5 days a week too. Zero common practical sense at all being displayed.


----------



## Cornell

On a Friday night, our high school district FINALLY released the metrics which would be used to open up the schools (even though we are two weeks into the school year).  For school to be fully opened there has to be less than 7 weekly cases per 100,000 people  in Cook Co., which has 5.5 million people.  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
I don't see this happening even with a vaccine.  So in other words, schools are not reopening, ever?


----------



## DannyTS

Cornell said:


> On a Friday night, our high school district FINALLY released the metrics which would be used to open up the schools (even though we are two weeks into the school year).  For school to be fully opened there has to be less than 7 weekly cases per 100,000 people  in Cook Co., which has 5.5 million people.  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
> I don't see this happening even with a vaccine.  So in other words, schools are not reopening, ever?


they are nuts


----------



## Cornell

DannyTS said:


> they are nuts


It's a sham.  This entire thing.  And they are basing there reco on the "Covid Act Now" model, which was one of those wildly inaccurate doomsday models.

This is a district of 12,000 students.


----------



## TravelTime

How about plastic bubbles in the classroom for teachers? Like the Boy in the Plastic Bubble.


----------



## Cornell

TravelTime said:


> How about plastic bubbles in the classroom for teachers? Like the Boy in the Plastic Bubble.


The union would find some issue with that.  BPA plastics or something.


----------



## DeniseM

Getting ugly again - maybe time for another timeout?


----------



## Ken555

7 per 100k is not out of line in certain circumstances. For example, today in California it was announced:









						Newsom unveils sweeping new coronavirus reopening rules for businesses in California
					

Newsom takes a more cautious and stringent four-tier approach than his first reopening effort. 'We're going to be more stubborn this time,' he says.




					www.latimes.com
				






> The criteria for each tier will be uniform for all 58 counties in California and a Newsom advisor said the new system takes effect on Monday. The vast majority of counties — including all those in Southern California except San Diego — will begin in the first and most restrictive tier.
> 
> *Tier 1, widespread transmission:* Most nonessential businesses must be closed. Counties in this tier have more than  seven new COVID cases per 100,000 people per day and a coronavirus test positivity rate of  more than 8%.
> *Tier 2, substantial transmission:* Some nonessential indoor businesses remain closed. Counties in this tier have between four to seven COVID cases per 100,000 people per day and a coronavirus test positivity rate of between 5%-8%.
> *Tier 3, moderate transmission:* Some businesses can open with modifications. Counties in this tier have 1-3.9 new COVID cases per 100,000 people per day and a coronavirus positivity rate of 2-4.9%.
> *Tier 4, minimal transmission:* Most businesses can reopen, with modifications. Counties in this tier have less than one new COVID case per 100,000 people per day and a coronavirus positivity rate of less than 2%.
> For example, restaurants in counties in Tier 1 will be allowed only to serve customers outdoors. Once a county moves into Tier 2, restaurants can serve customers indoors, but only at 25% capacity. At Tier 3, 50% capacity and at Tier 4 full capacity, as long as social distancing and other safeguards are in place.


----------



## DannyTS

Sure Denise, we are getting used to it.


----------



## TravelTime

DeniseM said:


> Getting ugly again - maybe time for another timeout?



Jokes are not allowed?


----------



## DeniseM

How do you think that Tuggers who are teachers or other school staff feel about this thread? It seems like some people are determined to make "others" the scapegoat.  I don't find that helpful.


----------



## DannyTS

TravelTime said:


> Jokes are not allowed?


They have to be approved.


----------



## Cornell

DannyTS said:


> They have to be approved.


by me.


----------



## TravelTime

Some people are showing their politics by putting this thread on time outs for no real reason other than not liking the content.


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## DeniseM

Thanks for confirming my concerns - this thread is now closed. Have a good evening!


----------

