# HICV Questions



## shoelace (Mar 18, 2018)

So last spring, I was "suckered" into taking a TS presentation at the smokey mountain resort.  I had a great vacation but, as many have, spent way too much time in the presentation.  Ultimately, that ended with me purchasing a place with 94k points every other year for $11k.  After getting home, waiting for the website to allow me in (my rescind period passed) I quickly realized that 94k points really didn't get me much of anything. I purchased on price, which was wrong.

Later, there was a follow up meeting they requested for new owners.  I chose to do this at Orange Lake.  There, the presenter was really an ass, really arrogant.  In any event I knew I had to do something as the 94k points every other year were basically worthless.  After asking how I could unload the TS, they told me that my only option, with them, would be to completely pay off the "deed" and then gift it back to them.  Of course, like many others, I am not willing to just throw $11k out the window.  My other option, would be to sell it on the market.  After reading on here, it appears that if I did that, my point setup would be changed to just the "week" which removes the "value" for potential buyers - if I am reading the other threads properly.

I felt I had to do something to fix the mess that I was already in.  So, they presented me with a 2 bdrm place in the east village with 166k points.  Their rate was $0.18/pt or nearly $30k.  They honored the previous 11k so the new bill wasn't 30+11, just 30.  Now that I am looking to use my points, I am finding fee after fee.  I really hope I didn't spend good $ after bad...

My annual fees are about $1,000 annually.  Plus fees for transferring / using points, just to use a week, it will be $1100-1300/yr.  Last night I was looking on expedia and found reservations were available for about the same price at orange lake - without the 30k off the top.  What am I missing?  What is the value of being a TS owner if you can get into the same place for virtually the same weekly place?  I get sick to my stomach thinking about potentially throwing away 30k without much benefit.


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## Bmatrose (Mar 19, 2018)

I suggest reading the member guide.  The biggest way to stretch your points is to stay Sunday thru Friday instead of the week.  That way you can get 10 days of vacation instead of 7.  Also travel off season and smaller units will stretch your points out further.  166K should get you two decent vacations a year if your willing to be flexible.  Your correct in saying one week at OL can be rented for less then maintenance fees.   Owners regularly can rent out week long stays for less than $1000


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## LannyPC (Mar 19, 2018)

shoelace said:


> What am I missing?  What is the value of being a TS owner if you can get into the same place for virtually the same weekly place?



I think you summed it up in your first sentence where you said "suckered".  Unfortunately many people are "suckered" into purchasing these TSs or vacation memberships based on the lies and half-truths, along with omission of important pertinent facts, that these sales people tell.

Sadly the sales person either "forgot" to mention that "you can get into the same place for virtually the same weekly [price]" or exaggerated that getting into the same place using another source would cost you scads of money more.


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## shoelace (Mar 19, 2018)

So, am I correct in my thoughts that I could goto the same place, for virtually the same annual prices - without the extra 30k entrance fee?  Trying to figure out what the best option is for me here.  I am struggling to see why I should pay 30k when I could get virtually the same thing for the annual cost - which I have regardless.


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## LannyPC (Mar 19, 2018)

If it's not too late, I would rescind the purchase you made at Orange Lake.  You have 10 days to do so in Florida.


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## Pathways (Mar 19, 2018)

shoelace said:


> So, am I correct in my thoughts that I could go to the same place, for virtually the same annual prices - without the extra 30k entrance fee?  Trying to figure out what the best option is for me here.  I am struggling to see why I should pay 30k when I could get virtually the same thing for the annual cost - which I have regardless.



You are absolutely correct, you can go there for the same price - without paying the 30k. 

_What am I missing? What is the value of being a TS owner if you can get into the same place for virtually the same weekly place?_

There are many reasons we here enjoy being timeshare 'owners', and some paid the '30k' like you did before finding out they could buy the same product for $500 or less.  Just like any purchase we make and find a store down the street selling it for less, except: This is a $30k purchase and there are no returns! (other than during the very short rescission period).

Assuming you are past the rescission date for your second purchase, you will need to stop thinking about the purchase price, and focus on the initial value you must have seen in the product. Learn the system and try to utilize it the best that you can.  Ask questions here and read the threads.

And welcome to TUG


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## shoelace (Mar 19, 2018)

Thanks for the responses.  I wish I would have found this site a year ago!  Now I feel like I need to find a way out of this...  I did find a site that say they can, but not sure if it works or  not.  

What is the "value" for me to remain an owner?  Initially I purchased it thinking all of the "big" trips that I would like to do would total around 30k so thats how I justified it.  However, now I am finding, those trips will cost even more with all the fees and such.  Some of my "big" trips would be to Europe, Africa, Australia and a few in the states.  I talked to RCI and they stated the fees for their resorts are several hundred, plus I believe I have fees from HICV to transfer my points to RCI, plus my annual fees - all of which tally perhaps more than it would be if I never purchased this TS.

I will continue to explore this site and build my education.  Thanks for all the replys!


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## shoelace (Mar 19, 2018)

Is it true that if I sell this property, the points will be wiped out and the TS will result in a"pointless" setup?  Only way to get into the point system is to purchase directly from HICV?  To weight my options, what are the best sources to list the property if I choose to go that route?  What is the typical "hit" on selling these properties?


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## Tank (Mar 20, 2018)

Your Gatlinburg resort had a resale value, not much but did stay points to the buyer. 

Your Orange lake purchase will resort back to a weeks only unit, no points when you resale it making it just about worthless sorry to say.


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## Bmatrose (Mar 20, 2018)

I second "Tank" comment....The OL unit is virtually worthless


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## jwalk03 (Mar 20, 2018)

If you are paying a loan on the 30k- the option to get out would be to default on the loan and their will be a foreclosure eventually.  There will likely be negative credit consequences, but its an option.  You just have to determine if the potential negative credit consequences outweigh the 30k (+interest) debt.


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## tschwa2 (Mar 20, 2018)

Tank said:


> Your Gatlinburg resort had a resale value, not much but did stay points to the buyer.
> 
> Your Orange lake purchase will resort back to a weeks only unit, no points when you resale it making it just about worthless sorry to say.


It is a little simplistic to say Gatlinburg has resale value and OL does not because of the points transfer (or lack of upon resale).

There are 1 br off season Gatlinburg and Myrtle Beach weeks that still have no resale value because of the point to MF's ratio is not good.  On the other hand there is a 4 br river island week 51 on ebay right now that is over $3000 with a lot of bidding.  True it includes a free week in 2018 with the seller paying all the transfer cost but and it is a particularly good week but there are some weeks at OL and other resorts in the system that do not transfer as points but have some resale value.

I don't think a $30,000 week would have been one of those so the OP probably is still with the majority of weeks with no resale value.


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## shoelace (Mar 20, 2018)

What are the options to get out?  Finn Law?  Time-share Answers?  I think the avenue that I want to pursue is to get out of this "deal"...


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## Mosescan (Mar 21, 2018)

If you still owe money on it then you will never sell it. No one will buy it. Anyone who tells you they can get you out if you pay them up front is FOS! Your only option would be to default in the loan and let it go to collections or pay it off and give it away.


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## shoelace (Mar 21, 2018)

I called several locations, one was timeshare answers - this is a scam.  When I told them I didn't want to deal with them, they started sounding like a timeshare company themselves!  

I called Finn law group and they stated the can get me out 100%, they MAY be able to recoup the money that I spent, including their 5500 fee.  Their fee, of course is also upfront.  Which, for a law firm, I understand that more than these other companies.  Still trying to figure out what path I should take.

I did find out that in 2015 HUD changed the law, where timeshares, while deeded, are not to be considered the same as a home incase of a default or foreclosure.  They are to be considered as an installment loan, similar to auto loan.  This is a big deal as, if one defaults on an auto-loan, it hurts your credit but not like it would with a home default / foreclosure...


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## tschwa2 (Mar 21, 2018)

[


shoelace said:


> I called several locations, one was timeshare answers - this is a scam.  When I told them I didn't want to deal with them, they started sounding like a timeshare company themselves!
> 
> I called Finn law group and they stated the can get me out 100%, they MAY be able to recoup the money that I spent, including their 5500 fee.  Their fee, of course is also upfront.  Which, for a law firm, I understand that more than these other companies.  Still trying to figure out what path I should take.
> 
> I did find out that in 2015 HUD changed the law, where timeshares, while deeded, are not to be considered the same as a home incase of a default or foreclosure.  They are to be considered as an installment loan, similar to auto loan.  This is a big deal as, if one defaults on an auto-loan, it hurts your credit but not like it would with a home default / foreclosure...


You have to decide then if it is worth another $5500 to get you out and maybe recover some or possibly all of the money spent.  On the other hand the 100% may end up with you defaulting and taking the hit on your credit and being out the money you spent thus far on the timeshare and the $5500 to the law firm.


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## shoelace (Mar 21, 2018)

Right, that is my dilemma.  I need to stop the bleeding, but have never been through anything like this.  Other than the credit hit, could they sue and go after my assets / wage garnishment etc?


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## simpsontruckdriver (Mar 21, 2018)

No, they can't go after any of your assets. It's just like a credit card collection agency. They'll call, send letters, etc. Still, *DO NOT* pay for any of these alleged timeshare "relief" scams. Either use the resort, getting advice here how to do it best, or go into default.

TS


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## shoelace (Mar 21, 2018)

Is there any benefit to talking to the resort on trying to cancel the contract?  I assume thats a big fat no, but have to ask.  I want to get out as I don't see the value in the purchase being able to get into the same place for the same or less annual fee with no BIG down payment and no obligation.

if I default, what are the negative effects?  Credit score hit, ok but how much and for how long? is it possible to get into wage garnishment?


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## LannyPC (Mar 21, 2018)

shoelace said:


> if I default, what are the negative effects?  Credit score hit, ok but how much and for how long? is it possible to get into wage garnishment?



Wage garnishment is highly unlikely.  That would have to go through courts.  Besides, I have yet to hear of someone here on TUG who suffered wage garnishment after defaulting on a TS loan or MFs.  And as for the credit score hits, not too many have reported that either here on TUG.  I'm not saying it won't happen.  I'm just saying I haven't heard of it yet.

But if you want to talk to the resort and ask if it will take your TS back, then contact the Homeowners' Association and explain your story.  You can also mention very firmly that you do not intend to pay any more money in MFs.  So taking your TS back would be a lot easier for the resort than to go through foreclosure procedures.

Are you up to date on the MFs?  Do you still owe on the TS loan?  If you don't owe anything on either of those, you can also try the free giveaway method here on TUG:

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/how-can-i-give-away-my-timeshare-on-tug.132509/

But this bears repeating:  Do *not* go seeking the help of these law firms or rescue/exit/relief companies who claim they can cancel your TS or your mortgage.  They will charge you a large upfront fee and might not even accomplish what you paid them to do.


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## shoelace (Mar 21, 2018)

Lanny, Thanks I haven't contracted anyone.  Well, actually I did but rescinded within 24hrs after waking up.  The guy started to sound like the TS salesman!  It was ridicules.  In Florida the Rescind period is 3 days for most transactions (contracts).  For TS's they are of course 10 days which I surpassed as I didn't have access to anything at that point (another gimmick).

Property was purchased Dec 30, 2017.  I do not have any maintenance fees delinquent and am current on my TS payments.  I owe around $25k, with the initial contract @ $32k.


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## shoelace (Mar 23, 2018)

Well, I have called the resort.  After being pushed around to person after person, they vehemently state the loan must be paid in full else after 120 days of delinquency they will start foreclosure proceedings.  The guy from Finn law called me back and stated that there are many people who do go through wage garnishment due to failure to pay and at that stage they are unable to help.  But swears he can help right now to the tune of 5500 up front.  He also said there are only 3 lawyers in Florida who practice in the timeshare contracts.  I did confirm that Finn is a legit attny in florida and in Michigan.

I have never been in a situation like this before and certainly appreciate all the comments.  Not sure what avenue to take here.  Would be awesome if I just stop paying and their "threats" have no teeth, however, I also know their "threats" could turn into a bigger problem.  Not sure which way to turn here......


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## LannyPC (Mar 23, 2018)

shoelace said:


> But swears he can help right now to the tune of 5500 up front.



The big question I have is (although you probably do not know the exact answer as of yet) What exactly will FLG do for you if you pay them $5500?  I am usually one to state not to go seeking the help of law firms or other companies that claim they can magically make your timeshare or loan/mortgage associated with it disappear.

One problem that I see is that the loan/mortgage is probably through a third-party (maybe you can confirm or refute that).  Who is the lender for the $25,000 that you owe?  The answer could have a bearing on what route you should take.

I just wonder if the person from the law firm telling you that many people do undergo wage garnishment is just using that as a scare tactic.  If it is, then just defaulting on the loan and kissing the $7000 you already sank into it goodbye.  That would be a lot more sensible than paying an additional $25,000 to salvage something that is worth about zero dollars.  It's would be a big gamble to take so I won't tell you what to do in this situation.


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## shoelace (Mar 23, 2018)

The loan is through a 3rd party, Wilson lending or something like that.  FLG stated they would be going after every dime that I spent, including attny fees and that it would be a toss up if I get it, but they could certainly terminate my contract and prevent my credit from being impacted.

I put feelers out to two other law firms, one is calling me in the morning.  Need to hear what she has to say.  The resounding message that I am hearing from everyone is that these resorts don't want to goto court for any potential paper trail.  If that is true, then there is no way to get a wage garnishment nor asset collection.  However, being a contracted installment loan, they do have the right to do that - I just don't know if they will or will not.  From talking to the resort today, they stated it would take about 120 days for them to get to a point of foreclosure.  Meaning I would have well into the summer before I need to worry about that, so I have time to figure this out, but of course I am impatient right now and just want this behind me!


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## LannyPC (Mar 23, 2018)

shoelace said:


> The loan is through a 3rd party, Wilson lending or something like that.
> 
> The resounding message that I am hearing from everyone is that these resorts don't want to go to court for any potential paper trail.  If that is true, then there is no way to get a wage garnishment nor asset collection.  However, being a contracted installment loan, they do have the right to do that - I just don't know if they will or will not.



So since the loan is through a third party, i don't think the resort is too worried about the loan because it (or more technically, the developer) already got its money.  If you want to give your TS back, you can contact the resort and mention that it would be easier for the resort's Homeowners' Association (HOA) to take it back rather than go through the costs and rigours of foreclosure.  Since your maintenance fees are paid up, the HOA and resort would probably comply.  The HOA might ask you to pay closing costs and perhaps the next MF.

I think your biggest concern right now is with the lender, Wilson since you owe them $25,000.  I just have a hard time imagining that a law firm is going to somehow wipe out that debt if you pay the firm $5500.  Before forking over $5500, I would ask the law firm what exactly it is going to do that would somehow wipe out that debt and "prevent [your] credit from being impacted".  Could you ask the law firm for details?


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## tschwa2 (Mar 23, 2018)

The Wilsons are the original developers of OL and still have a large stake (perhaps not majority in HICV but probably still at Orange Lake). They may technically be a third party but they are a very interested third party.


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## shoelace (Mar 23, 2018)

They are going after the lies that I was told.  I was told after my initial purchase that I could use my TS anywhere and get into a 2 bdrm place without issue.  Well, at 94k points every other year, this isn't true.  I was told that I could bank points in RCI, and keep them forever, this is not true.  I was told that my points are easily used anywhere anytime at any RCI resort, but I don't have enough and after all of the fees, its like I am paying 2xs for the vacation!  I was told that it was a tremendous "value" to purchase and get exclusivity to these resorts which isn't true etc etc.... That is the angle the attny would be looking to pursue to relieve the debt.

From what I can find is that Wilson Resort Finance is part of the Orange lake resort.  Another interesting tid-bit is that its been very hard to find any testimonials that are recent (in the last 3-4 years) of folks that are looking to do what I am trying to do.  Which I find hard to believe


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## tschwa2 (Mar 24, 2018)

shoelace said:


> They are going after the lies that I was told.  I was told after my initial purchase that I could use my TS anywhere and get into a 2 bdrm place without issue.  Well, at 94k points every other year, this isn't true.  I was told that I could bank points in RCI, and keep them forever, this is not true.  I was told that my points are easily used anywhere anytime at any RCI resort, but I don't have enough and after all of the fees, its like I am paying 2xs for the vacation!  I was told that it was a tremendous "value" to purchase and get exclusivity to these resorts which isn't true etc etc.... That is the angle the attny would be looking to pursue to relieve the debt.
> 
> From what I can find is that Wilson Resort Finance is part of the Orange lake resort.  Another interesting tid-bit is that its been very hard to find any testimonials that are recent (in the last 3-4 years) of folks that are looking to do what I am trying to do.  Which I find hard to believe


You mean testimonials of people successfully getting out of a contract with a timeshare  company.  The ones that do likely have to sign a non disclosure document so they can't talk about it.

Proving what you were told is going to be near impossible because it is all he said, she said hear say.  You don't have any proof. Timeshare sales people also imply a lot without actually saying the words you thought they said.  On the other hand HICV has the contract as proof that you were willing to sign the contract as written.  

On the other hand there are disclosure items that developers would have to release if they case were to go to court which they do not want made public record.  They would have to see how compelling your argument is and will then decide if they think you would be willing to take it to court.  They will likely offer some kind of settlement but it may not be complete debt forgiveness.  If you don't accept that one they may offer a better settlement or they may just sent everything to default and you would have to continue to pursue a case you likely won't win, while HICV uses delay tactics to avoid court to see if you just cave instead of paying additional money to your lawyers.  The Finn group is going to be trying for the best settlement they can get for you because they likely know as well that you have almost no chance of winning in court.


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## Mosescan (Mar 24, 2018)

LannyPC said:


> So since the loan is through a third party, i don't think the resort is too worried about the loan because it (or more technically, the developer) already got its money.  If you want to give your TS back, you can contact the resort and mention that it would be easier for the resort's Homeowners' Association (HOA) to take it back rather than go through the costs and rigours of foreclosure.  Since your maintenance fees are paid up, the HOA and resort would probably comply.  The HOA might ask you to pay closing costs and perhaps the next MF.
> 
> I think your biggest concern right now is with the lender, Wilson since you owe them $25,000.  I just have a hard time imagining that a law firm is going to somehow wipe out that debt if you pay the firm $5500.  Before forking over $5500, I would ask the law firm what exactly it is going to do that would somehow wipe out that debt and "prevent [your] credit from being impacted".  Could you ask the law firm for details?


That’s easy, the law firm will take his $5500 and then tell him to declare bankruptcy. Job done!


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## shoelace (Mar 27, 2018)

After doing some research, I hired an attorney.  6-18 months it appears and I will likely be out of this nightmare.  Granted, its like I just burned the cash, but.... its better than continuing to loose tens of thousands.  Crossing my fingers they can get me out.

Some pertinent information that I found, since there are so many damn scammers out there looking to dip their hands in my pockets is the following:

- As repeatedly stated here, don't pay upfront (hard not to if its an attny though)
- Search AVVO.com for legit attorney reviews
- Find your proposed attorney on the respective state bar website and verify if they are in good standing - do your research
- Shop around, don't make knee jerk decisions
- Don't hire "document preparation services" as the timeshare companies know them and don't like them (some of these guys are former TS salesman)
- You are in a legal binding document - best way out is via the courts (as I see it)
- Keep an eye on your credit, HUD changed the law in 2015 to show the timeshare "mortgage" is an installment loan, but some timeshare companies will report it to the credit bureau as a real-estate mortgage and will stick with you for 7-10 yrs if you default
- If you do purchase during one of the timeshare sales meetings (which, from reading here is highly ill advised - and I agree) make sure that you keep all of the papers they write on
- Know that your timeshare contract may still come due even in the event you have died! Your estate will be responsible for payment
- If you default, the timeshare company can absolutely go after wage garnishment and asset collection to "make them whole" through a judgement against you. They will seek this if you don't have representation; why wouldn't they, unless you are capable to represent yourself in a court, you aren't a threat to them
- There are no laws to prevent these "scams" we call timeshare sales presentations since its a multi-billion dollar industry and the gov has their fingers in the pot as well (taxes)

If nothing else, hopefully my experience loosing over $10,000 in real cash money, will prevent someone else from doing the same.  Not sure where my journey will take me.... time will tell!


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## Momonvacation (Dec 28, 2018)

jwalk03 said:


> If you are paying a loan on the 30k- the option to get out would be to default on the loan and their will be a foreclosure eventually.  There will likely be negative credit consequences, but its an option.  You just have to determine if the potential negative credit consequences outweigh the 30k (+interest) debt.


If you do this can’t you be sued for it?


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## Momonvacation (Dec 28, 2018)

shoelace said:


> The loan is through a 3rd party, Wilson lending or something like that.  FLG stated they would be going after every dime that I spent, including attny fees and that it would be a toss up if I get it, but they could certainly terminate my contract and prevent my credit from being impacted.
> 
> I put feelers out to two other law firms, one is calling me in the morning.  Need to hear what she has to say.  The resounding message that I am hearing from everyone is that these resorts don't want to goto court for any potential paper trail.  If that is true, then there is no way to get a wage garnishment nor asset collection.  However, being a contracted installment loan, they do have the right to do that - I just don't know if they will or will not.  From talking to the resort today, they stated it would take about 120 days for them to get to a point of foreclosure.  Meaning I would have well into the summer before I need to worry about that, so I have time to figure this out, but of course I am impatient right now and just want this behind me!


Hey shoelace what did you end up doing?


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## Momonvacation (Dec 28, 2018)

simpsontruckdriver said:


> No, they can't go after any of your assets. It's just like a credit card collection agency. They'll call, send letters, etc. Still, *DO NOT* pay for any of these alleged timeshare "relief" scams. Either use the resort, getting advice here how to do it best, or go into default.
> 
> TS


How can I verify that we can’t get assets seized


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## dayooper (Dec 28, 2018)

Last post was March 2018 and was last logged in on April 10, 2018. Not sure if they will respond.


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## silentg (Dec 30, 2018)

The deal with OL was $30,000? Did they subtract the $11,000 you already paid? That would mean $19,000? Even if this is what they offered it’s a awful deal.
Try to rescind, you were mislead. Good Luck
Silentg


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## DrQ (Dec 30, 2018)

I'm not sure if shoelace will respond, but this is a lesson for other newbies.

Cardinal Rule: When you are in a hole - STOP DIGGING.

It's easy to say, but it is hard to do. You need to start researching at this point and not to trust the same sharks that suckered you in the first place.


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