# Help rescinding Wyndham contract!



## Ladolora (Jul 17, 2014)

Hello everyone! First I want to thank in advance for your help.

At the moment my family and I are in TN, we are from VA and dont come back until Saturday; Yesterday we went to a presentation for a Wyndham resort vacation and unfortunately we signed the contract, when we got back to the hotel, we did some research and found this website and all the great info; We saw the paperwork and it says that we have 10 days to cancel, we've been reading the forums for info and we found a lot, but still have some questions:

What should we send back? Just the resigned letter or the whole paperwork?

They opened an bill me later account for us, Do We need to get in contact with them as well?

What type of mail should I use?

Does any of you guys know of an email or fax number i send it to just to be on the safe side?

Thanks again guys!!


----------



## vacationhopeful (Jul 17, 2014)

Ladolora said:


> ...have some questions:
> 
> What should we send back? Just the* resigned letter *or the whole paperwork? *RESCIND LETTER?*
> 
> ...



My Answers in BOLD and Underlined.

DO NOT WAIT. KEEP COPIES OF WHAT YOU SENT.

You know the old saying - "what would happen if you got into a car wreck and were laying in coma in the hospital for week?" You would OWN a full price timeshare and be paying for the next 15 years.


----------



## Passepartout (Jul 17, 2014)

I think the instructions are just above your signature on the last page. Follow them exactly. You should return the whole packet of stuff to them at some point, (add 'promotional materials to be returned under separate cover' to the letter) but for now, just the rescission letter and a copy of the contract showing your signatures. Whoever signed the contract should also sign the rescission letter. Send it USPS Certified w/return receipt. Not UPS, not FED-EX, not email, or carrier pigeon.

Best Wishes, and Welcome to TUG!

Jim


----------



## pacodemountainside (Jul 17, 2014)

Suggest you read this thread. It covers  several rescissions including Wyndham.

Should answer all your questions.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211383&page=2


----------



## carl2591 (Jul 21, 2014)

good luck and welcome to TUG.. it amazing how many people we see new here that went to timeshare tour and bought a 20K item with little or no research until after the deal is done. 

Lucky in most states there is a 7-10 day rescission period.. I remember in the late 80's it was like 3 days with the day you signed as day one.. talk about no time.. 

after you get the paper work stuff done check around here and ebay for cheap wyndham deals.. You will be amazed at the deal you can find on wyndham points contracts resale. 

If you are in the wyndham resort in cumberland gap area that is a nice place for sure.

PS check this deal out on wyndham points.. this is on tug marketplace

http://tug2.com/TimeshareMarketplac...tingGUID=c029d9ba-e083-409a-8a56-5d00ce793594


----------



## csxjohn (Jul 21, 2014)

Do not send your copies of the contract you signed.  Keep them for your records until this is done with.  

You will send a rescission letter referring to the contract number on the papers you signed.

Make sure everyone who signed that paper also signs the rescission letter.

And send it today!


----------



## uscav8r (Jul 21, 2014)

Ladolora said:


> Hello everyone! First I want to thank in advance for your help.
> 
> At the moment my family and I are in TN, we are from VA and dont come back until Saturday; Yesterday we went to a presentation for a Wyndham resort vacation and unfortunately we signed the contract, when we got back to the hotel, we did some research and found this website and all the great info; We saw the paperwork and it says that we have 10 days to cancel, we've been reading the forums for info and we found a lot, but still have some questions:
> 
> ...


Take this other current thread as a warning:
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652298&postcount=52

DO NOT DELAY just to get all the different ducks in a row (contract, Bill Me Later, etc.). The only important thing is the contract recission within the specified time frame, everything else can be handled after that.

Do NOT split hairs over language (business days vs. calendar days). Use the most restrictive (generally calendar days) and just get it done. 

Do the double-pronged approach and fax in addition to snail mail. You can buy yourself 1-2 days by faxing (24/7) and not having to wait for a post office to open. Even if you fax, follow up with the snail mail ASAP.

There is no such thing as being overzealous in this process.


----------



## loli (Jul 21, 2014)

uscav8r said:


> Take this other current thread as a warning:
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652298&postcount=52
> 
> DO NOT DELAY just to get all the different ducks in a row (contract, Bill Me Later, etc.). The only important thing is the contract recission within the specified time frame, everything else can be handled after that.
> ...



Wish I would have sent a fax for this on Saturday the 5th and did my mailing on the 7th.  

Do what everyone on here tells you to do.


----------



## Rent_Share (Jul 21, 2014)

If fax is not specified as a method of delivery, it is of no value, Having proof of mailing is all that matters


----------



## theo (Jul 22, 2014)

*Yessa!*



Rent_Share said:


> If fax is not specified as a method of delivery, it is of no value, Having proof of mailing is all that matters



+1 for this wise and highly relevant factual observation. 

Using *any* method other than those specified within the rescission instructions is a waste of time and effort and is plainly inadequate.


----------



## uscav8r (Jul 22, 2014)

theo said:


> +1 for this wise and highly relevant factual observation.
> 
> Using *any* method other than those specified within the rescission instructions is a waste of time and effort and is plainly inadequate.




Except for empirical reports to the contrary by Ron Parise amongst others. 

Fax may not be official in all cases, but are you saying taking 5-15 minutes to get something out overnight and then following up the next "government day" with certified snail mail is a complete waste of time? That nominal amount of time is low cost IMHO.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## theo (Jul 22, 2014)

*Howzzat now ???*



uscav8r said:


> ...are you saying taking 5-15 minutes to get something out overnight and then following up the next "government day" with certified snail mail is a complete waste of time? That nominal amount of time is low cost IMHO.



I don't believe that I stated or in any way even remotely implied any such thing. The straightforward bottom line here is that in the eyes of the law, *postmark* date is what ultimately matters. The use of certified mail obviously provides readily retrievable documentary proof of postmark date.  Other avenues (only very rarely identified within rescission instructions) are legally insufficient, unless specifically and overtly referenced as acceptable alternatives. Period, amen.

My +1 post (#10 above) agreed wholeheartedly (and still does) with the directly preceding post observing that *a fax just doesn't cut it for rescission notification* unless fax notification is overtly and specifically identified within the rescission instructions as being an acceptable means of cancellation notification. 

Any timeshare developer in the U.S. will acknowledge the validity of certified U.S. Mail and any and all U.S. courts routinely and consistently regard and accept the associated certified mail hand-date-stamped receipt as documentary proof of postmark date. If you have some "beef" with me on this, I don't see how or why.


----------



## TUGBrian (Jul 22, 2014)

welcome to TUG, you just saved thousands of dollars.


----------



## pacodemountainside (Jul 22, 2014)

theo said:


> I don't believe that I stated or in any way even remotely implied any such thing. In the eyes of the law, *postmark* date is what ultimately matters and the use of certified mail obviously provides documentary proof of postmark date.  Other avenues (others avenues are very rarely identified in rescission instructions) are simply legally insufficient, unless specifically referenced as acceptable alternatives.
> 
> My +1 post (#10 above) agreed wholeheartedly (still does) with the directly preceding post observing that *a fax just doesn't cut it for rescission notification* unless specifically identified within the rescission instructions as being an acceptable means of cancellation notification.
> 
> I am admittedly unclear on your "beef", but any and all timeshare developers in the U.S. obviously will (i.e., must) acknowledge the validity of certified U.S. Mail and any and all courts regard and accept the associated certified mail hand-date-stamped receipt as documentary proof of postmark date. If we have some point of disagreement here, I must admit that it escapes me completely.



I think  reference  is  to a posting I vaguely recall that  Ron made   awhile back.   Not quoting but going from memory he indicated he  had  faxed to  Vegas and a couple days  later called  and they said they were processing.

I think it is unanimous that  not precisely adhering  to  printed  instructions is   absolute  defense for  Developer to refuse/deny.

Maybe Wyndham guys  are a little  nicer than Westgate.

Hopefully Ron will chime in  and clarify.


----------



## uscav8r (Jul 22, 2014)

theo said:


> I don't believe that I stated or in any way even remotely implied any such thing. In the eyes of the law, *postmark* date is what ultimately matters and the use of certified mail obviously provides documentary proof of postmark date.  Other avenues (others avenues are very rarely identified in rescission instructions) are simply legally insufficient, unless specifically referenced as acceptable alternatives.
> 
> My +1 post (#10 above) agreed wholeheartedly (still does) with the directly preceding post observing that *a fax just doesn't cut it for rescission notification* unless specifically identified within the rescission instructions as being an acceptable means of cancellation notification.
> 
> I am admittedly unclear on the point you seek to make or argue, but any and all timeshare developers in the U.S. obviously will (i.e., must) acknowledge the validity of certified U.S. Mail and any and all courts regard and accept the associated certified mail date-stamped receipt as documentary proof of postmark date. If we have some point of disagreement here, it frankly escapes me completely.


Theo, I'm not saying (nor have I implied) to rely on the fax, and fax alone. *The default is always going to be snail mail*, and I am *not* claiming otherwise, and in fact, have helped beat the drum on this very point.

Call it a "peace of mind" tool as a part of a multi-pronged approach. Or consider it an "accelerator" that _could _get the ball rolling sooner in some cases (again as reported by Ron Parise in which he faxed a rescission to Wyndham, followed up with snail mail and a call, only to be pleasantly surprised to find they had acted on his fax).

My main point here is to NOT wait until the next day that a post office is open, especially if the buyer has waited to long to find TUG and has no other options to stay inside the window. 

I hope no newbie or other developer buyer reads this thread and gives up hope (and therefore does *nothing*) simply because they couldn't make it to a post office in time (or waits until the PO is open, but now has a late, and therefore invalid, rescission notification). That fax could save their bacon if it is the only avenue remaining.

I'm am only offering tools and the value of perseverance and being *proactive*. It is up to the reader to decide what action he/she needs to take.


----------



## uscav8r (Jul 22, 2014)

theo said:


> I am admittedly unclear on your "beef" here. Any and all timeshare developers in the U.S. obviously will (i.e., must) acknowledge the validity of certified U.S. Mail and any and all U.S. courts routinely and consistently regard and accept the associated certified mail hand-date-stamped receipt as documentary proof of postmark date.
> If you have some point of argument or disagreement with me on this, I must admit that your position escapes me completely.



No beef here... frankly I was surprised at the backlash to what I considered a "complete" rescission strategy. I'm the type to take every possible approach to get something done, even if it is somewhat unnecessary. It's my affinity for redundant systems and processes (it's never a good thing to lose an engine on your jet... hopefully you have a 2nd one to take up the slack! If that is not an option, hopefully one has an "alternate flying method" be it a parachute or ejection seat!  )


----------



## uscav8r (Jul 22, 2014)

Disagreements over the utility of fax aside, I have not heard anything from the group in this or other similar threads regarding rescission notices sent via UPS or FEDEX vice simply USPS.

You can usually find locations for UPS/FEDEX that accept parcels/letters well after the post office has closed, and can offer "proof" of mailing/acceptance by the delivering entity. Does this open up another option for the buyer "under the rescission gun?"

I suspect the answer(s) will be: "it depends" on how the contract is worded. What about cases in which the contract is silent on method of physical delivery?


----------



## theo (Jul 22, 2014)

*All is well...*



uscav8r said:


> No beef here... frankly I was surprised at the backlash to what I considered a "complete" (perhaps overly so) rescission strategy. I'm the type to take every possible approach to get something done, even if it is somewhat unnecessary. It's my affinity for redundant systems and processes (it's never a good thing to lose an engine on your jet... hopefully you have a 2nd one to take up the slack! If that is not an option, hopefully one has an "alternate flying method" be it a parachute or ejection seat!  )



No beef here either. I missed any "backlash". Belt and suspenders can't hurt, but the undeniable fact remains that *postmark date rules all* in the eyes of the law.

I am worried, for example, by someone firing off (legally meaningless) emails or sending unauthorized faxes to cancel --- or running off to the mailbox to make the mailman's pickup. In that last scenario, the "mailed" correspondence could be (and often is) postmarked a day or two (...or three) later. Those lost days can mean the difference between "whew, I made it" and "$hi+, I'm too late", since mailed and postmarked are most definitely *not* the same thing.     

Anyway, we can only hope that rescinding buyers will *read and follow precisely their rescission instructions* --- well before the applicable state law deadline passes.


----------



## Joe33426 (Jul 22, 2014)

Not to beat a dead horse  , but whenever I have something really important to send, I send the document both certified and first class mail.  I'm under the impression that there is no legal requirement for an entity or individual to accept service on a certified letter.  In other words, just because you send something certified doesn't mean it was delivered to your intended recipient.  

I put on the letter that I'm sending the letter via both first class mail and certified and put the certified number on the copy of the letter.  I mail both at the same time and buy the stamp for the first class letter at the same time as I pay for the certified letter, so that I have some "proof" of the first class mailing.  

If push really came to shove, and you had to go to court over a rescission and you never received the green card back, I'm not sure what the courts would say.  I would imagine it depends on the jurisdiction and the case law. 

As far as other means of service, I wouldn't dare use anything beside USPS unless the contract specifically authorized those methods.


----------



## theo (Jul 22, 2014)

uscav8r said:


> Disagreements over the utility of fax aside, I have not heard anything from the group in this or other similar threads regarding rescission notices sent via UPS or FEDEX vice simply USPS.
> 
> You can usually find locations for UPS/FEDEX that accept parcels/letters well after the post office has closed, and can offer "proof" of mailing/acceptance by the delivering entity. Does this open up another option for the buyer "under the rescission gun?"
> 
> I suspect the answer(s) will be: "it depends" on how the contract is worded. What about cases in which the contract is silent on method of physical delivery?



Your suspicions are right on the money.

The "problem" with UPS or Fed Ex is certainly not their hours or their performance reliability. The potential "problem" is that using them, if not specifically identified within the contract as an acceptable avenue of rescission delivery (...and frankly, I have never known either of them to be so identified) gives the developer a potential  "out" in regard to buyer rescission compliance. Why give the developer that opening? 

Could a buyer who used a "wrong" delivery method go after a rescission-refusing developer through the courts? Sure --- but at what cost and with what likelihood of success when, in the final analysis, the buyer failed to comply in the first place with the terms of contract documents which the buyer freely and willingly signed? 

Timely and precise compliance with the rescission instructions provided is surely both the best and easiest course of action in a contract rescission.  Pursuing innovative alternatives is (unnecessarily) dangerous territory. Westgate comes immediately to mind as one outfit which which most likely "go to the mats" over an improperly submitted rescission. Wyndham, I dunno...


----------



## theo (Jul 22, 2014)

Joe33426 said:


> I'm under the impression that there is no legal requirement for an entity or individual to accept service on a certified letter.  In other words, just because you send something certified doesn't mean it was delivered to your intended recipient.
> 
> *If push really came to shove, and you had to go to court over a rescission and you never received the green card back, I'm not sure what the courts would say.  I would imagine it depends on the jurisdiction and the case law. *



Oddly enough, that green return receipt card is not critically important or relevant in most instances. Yes, it provides the sender with peace of mind (and proof of receipt, although the date of receipt is completely irrelevant in a timeshare contract rescission), but the truly important piece in a date-contested timeshare rescission matter would be the hand-stamped / postmark-dated / counter-issued receipt provided to the sender. 

In almost any court anywhere, no large, long established business (Wyndham included) operating at a long-known address during normal  business days and hours could ever hope to defensibly employ refusing delivery of certified mail as a later explanation for failing to process a timely submitted rescission. Yes, anyone can surely refuse a certified mail delivery anytime (people on the receiving end of debt collection efforts certainly do so quite routinely), but the refusal itself (and any and all subsequent refusals) become their own documented matter of record, clearly providing proof of multiple good faith efforts to deliver. Anyway, enough of all this for me.:deadhorse: 
The short and sweet version for virtually every developer-direct timeshare buyer (including from Wyndham) is:

1. *READ* that multi-thousand dollar contract you signed, either the same day you signed it or very soon thereafter. Your contract includes written rescission rights and instructions and the applicable deadline to exercise your right of rescission. In some states, you actually have as few as 3 days to rescind!

2. Don't wait. Act promptly. Beat the aforementioned rescission deadline identified within your contract by as many days as possible.

3. Use *only* the rescission delivery mechanism(s) identified and specified within your contracts' rescission instructions.

4. After successfully completing steps 1 through 3 above, exhale. Relax. Enjoy a beverage of your choice. Sleep soundly. 

5. Go to the TUG web site. Learn about resales --- and stay *out* of those developer salesrooms so you won't have to go back to step 1. and repeat all over again.


----------



## vacationhopeful (Jul 22, 2014)

Joe33426 said:


> ....I put on the letter that I'm sending the letter via both first class mail and certified and put the certified number on the copy of the letter.  I mail both at the same time and buy the stamp for the first class letter at the same time as I pay for the certified letter, so that I have some "proof" of the first class mailing.
> 
> If push really came to shove, and you had to go to court over a rescission and you never received the green card back, I'm not sure what the courts would say.  I would imagine it depends on the jurisdiction and the case law.
> 
> As far as other means of service, I wouldn't dare use anything beside USPS unless the contract specifically authorized those methods.



Okay, I have been IN COURT in front of a REAL STATE JUDGE several times ... If a person DOES NOT CLAIM a certified letter within the time the USPS allows, it is RETURNED TO THE SENDER (that is ME). I have had to produce said RETURN CERTIFIED MAIL unopened to the JUDGE during the trials I have been involved in. It is entered into EVIDENCE (the envelope), the JUDGE opens the envelope, reviews the letter inside (including the bottom CC: REGULAR MAIL), notates he opened it and RULES IN MY FAVOR as that I properly documented the info to the PLANIFANT via the proper and legal method recognized in my state --- Certified Mail, Return Receipt AND another copy via Regular USPS Mail. 

Over the years I have been doing my particular business, I send out 10+ certified letter (RR receipt and regular mail) per month. But just not being ruled against me even ONCE in court, I have saved myself more than 10-20 FOLD my mailing costs over the years. And I have a legal mandate for the timing of each CERTIFIED LETTER to the receiver -- no more than 30 calendar days .... with absolutely no excuses: like it snowed, out of the country, sick kid, in hospital, a holiday .... I would bet EVEN DEATH would not get my estate off the hook.

PROOF of MAILING is also needed - it verifies that I did send THAT letter on the date, too. It is a 2nd verification from the Post Office. And if the SIGNED for the notice (the returned GREEN CARD) (or some person at the address of delivery sign), then it is the USPS professional delivery record AND the fact that the REGULAR MAIL was implied to also have been received.

Yes, court - my state court. With the trial heard by the same level of JUDGE who could send a person to prison for the rest of their life ... 

And I am NOT a lawyer. Just my personal experience.


----------



## pacodemountainside (Jul 22, 2014)

Agree with Linda. My experience has been same. What a mess our legal system would be if one  simply  ducked  certified mail.

Would certainly create a lot of jobs  for "process servers".

After  legal action has been  "joined   all that is required is affidavit of mailing  signed by third party.

Also, can track certified using  postal  tracking system and print out for Judge.


----------



## csxjohn (Jul 23, 2014)

vacationhopeful said:


> Okay, I have been IN COURT in front of a REAL STATE JUDGE several times ... If a person DOES NOT CLAIM a certified letter within the time the USPS allows, it is RETURNED TO THE SENDER (that is ME). I have had to produce said RETURN CERTIFIED MAIL unopened to the JUDGE during the trials I have been involved in. It is entered into EVIDENCE (the envelope), the JUDGE opens the envelope, reviews the letter inside (including the bottom CC: REGULAR MAIL), notates he opened it and RULES IN MY FAVOR as that I properly documented the info to the PLANIFANT via the proper and legal method recognized in my state --- Certified Mail, Return Receipt AND another copy via Regular USPS Mail.
> 
> Over the years I have been doing my particular business, I send out 10+ certified letter (RR receipt and regular mail) per month. But just not being ruled against me even ONCE in court, I have saved myself more than 10-20 FOLD my mailing costs over the years. And I have a legal mandate for the timing of each CERTIFIED LETTER to the receiver -- no more than 30 calendar days .... with absolutely no excuses: like it snowed, out of the country, sick kid, in hospital, a holiday .... I would bet EVEN DEATH would not get my estate off the hook.
> 
> ...



Great post!! I think it should be a Sticky somewhere for recission help.


----------

