# Wyndham salesman's lies to my friends



## rickandcindy23 (Jan 25, 2020)

We have friends that visted WDW, stayed at Caribbean Beach and loved staying there.  They have five kids but had their folks watch the kids for this trip.  It was kind of a romantic trip without the kids.

They went on a pitch for Wyndham at Bonnet Creek, and they were told by two salespeople that Bonnet Creek owners and guests get all of the Disney benefits of FP+ and Early Magic Hours.  That is not true, and I had a really tough time convincing my friends that the nice salesperson was lying.  I cannot believe I had to have such a strange conversation about obvious lies.  I told her to give me the name of the salesperson, so I could report him.  They were going to call back and buy!  Thank goodness they waited to talk to me, but even then, they didn't even believe what I was telling them.


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 25, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> We have friends that visted WDW, stayed at Caribbean Beach and loved staying there. They have five kids but had their folks watch the kids for this trip. It was kind of a romantic trip without the kids.
> 
> They went on a pitch for Wyndham at Bonnet Creek, and they were told by two salespeople that Bonnet Creek owners and guests get all of the Disney benefits of FP+ and Early Magic Hours. That is not true, and I had a really tough time convincing my friends that the nice salesperson was lying. I cannot believe I had to have such a strange conversation about obvious lies. I told her to give me the name of the salesperson, so I could report him. They were going to call back and buy! Thank goodness they waited to talk to me, but even then, they didn't even believe what I was telling them.



One must lie when they need to hose their victim.

Show your friends timesharenation.com where they can get a FREE timeshare. Maybe that will get them to hang up the phone.


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## CPNY (Jan 26, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> One must lie when they need to hose their victim.
> 
> Show your friends timesharenation.com where they can get a FREE timeshare. Maybe that will get them to hang up the phone.
> 
> ...


How are the Wyndham locations? High TPU in RCI?


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 26, 2020)

CPNY said:


> How are the Wyndham locations? High TPU in RCI?



Here’s a list of their current inventory. Just click by resort and look down at Wyndham. All free including closing and transfer. Some include free 2020 use.







						Bulk List Inventory - Google Drive
					






					docs.google.com
				





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## Jan M. (Jan 26, 2020)

If someone were to secretly record the Wyndham salespeople telling people they get the Disney benefits that might be enough to get the Disney lawyers talking to the Wyndham lawyers. I'm under the impression that Disney is very aggressive in protecting their name and products.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jan 26, 2020)

I don't know that Disney cares. They are really so above the fray. 

WorldMark has been telling people kind of the same things.  They keep saying they have a special in with Disney and if you buy WorldMark direct, you get exchanges ahead of others.  I see that with Lawrence Welk, as reported here on TUG, but I have never seen anyone post 2 bedrooms at Animal Kingdom, for example, with WorldMark 10K points.  So some systems (maybe just Welk) get that special benefit but not WorldMark owners.


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## paxsarah (Jan 26, 2020)

CPNY said:


> How are the Wyndham locations? High TPU in RCI?



If you’re asking the value of Wyndham locations for exchanging in RCI, Wyndham points are not in the TPU system. They trade according to a fixed grid based on season and unit size, which generally makes it a good deal to trade into “expensive” resorts (for example, DVC or Manhattan Club), but less of a value for average, run of the mill resorts. For instance, I've got an upcoming exchange at Disney's Saratoga Springs, but any 1BR at any Orlando resort would have cost me the same number of Wyndham points for that week - some of which are just as nice or nicer than Disney, many of which are not, and none of which have the location or on-site perks for a Disney parks vacation.


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## 55plus (Jan 26, 2020)

Sales Weasels get away with their lies because of the disclaimer buried in the contract that states in so many words, any promises, statements, etc., are null and void if not included in writing in the purchase contract. If it's not in print it's moot.


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## Braindead (Jan 26, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> Show your friends timesharenation.com where they can get a FREE timeshare. Maybe that will get them to hang up the phone





Fredflintstone said:


> Here’s a list of their current inventory. Just click by resort and look down at Wyndham. All free including closing and transfer. Some include free 2020 use.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A word of caution on free Wyndham timeshares & timesharenation.com
Free is not always the best deals. Often free contracts have high MFs & may not be taken back by Ovations if you want out in a few years.
If you pay $6 per 1k points to purchase a contract at a low MF resort with MFs of $3 per 1k less than a free contract, that contract pays for itself in 2 years. Also it will likely still have value in a few years or will be eligible for Ovations. Attached is an example of what can happen with a free or for little cost contract.
It can turn into a pay me now or pay me later proposition.


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## Xcalibur (Jan 26, 2020)

Braindead said:


> A word of caution on free Wyndham timeshares & timesharenation.com
> Free is not always the best deals. Often free contracts have high MFs & may not be taken back by Ovations if you want out in a few years.
> If you pay $6 per 1k points to purchase a contract at a low MF resort with MFs of $3 per 1k less than a free contract, that contract pays for itself in 2 years. Also it will likely still have value in a few years or will be eligible for Ovations. Attached is an example of what can happen with a free or for little cost contract.
> It can turn into a pay me now or pay me later proposition.
> View attachment 16747


Always a price to 'free'! 

Thanks!


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 26, 2020)

Braindead said:


> A word of caution on free Wyndham timeshares & timesharenation.com
> Free is not always the best deals. Often free contracts have high MFs & may not be taken back by Ovations if you want out in a few years.
> If you pay $6 per 1k points to purchase a contract at a low MF resort with MFs of $3 per 1k less than a free contract, that contract pays for itself in 2 years. Also it will likely still have value in a few years or will be eligible for Ovations. Attached is an example of what can happen with a free or for little cost contract.
> It can turn into a pay me now or pay me later proposition.
> View attachment 16747



From reviewing a few of them on the list, the MFs are the same amount as every other owner. There may be exceptions but I couldn’t find any.

Ovations? Well, if you think paying 20 k and up for a contract is worth that versus free, I suppose you can. Most timeshares lose 90 percent value plus right away. Free means zero percent loss. You can always give away your free timeshare too versus losing 20 k plus.

If you buy in California, Florida, South Carolina, Colorado, I am confident the resorts will be amicable on deed back because you do have other options if you wish to take them.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 26, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> From reviewing a few of them on the list, the MFs are the same amount as every other owner. There may be exceptions but I couldn’t find any.
> 
> Ovations? Well, if you think paying 20 k and up for a contract is worth that versus free, I suppose you can. Most timeshares lose 90 percent value plus right away. Free means zero percent loss. You can always give away your free timeshare too versus losing 20 k plus.
> 
> ...



Many of the listings on TSN have been static for months because they have high MFs when compared to lower MF contracts. Braindead’s point is valid. Occasionally a listing will show up on TSN that has lower MFs and it lasts for a day or so at most before it’s gone.

He never was comparing a retail purchase vs a resale purchase - he was simply saying what I agree with - be careful with many of the listings on TSN as many of their listings are “free” because they are higher MF resale contracts that are difficult to get rid of even for free. I’ve seen the same thing from other timeshare resale companies such as Sumday that have free listings. Difficult to even give high MF contracts away. I know many owners with high MF resale contracts who haven’t been able to find anyone to give it away to because there is very little demand for high MF contracts out there. 

Ovations will take back resale contracts as long as they are on the list of resorts that Wyndham wants back. It just won’t qualify for Ovation Limited Edition if it’s a resale contract. 


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 26, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Many of the listings on TSN have been static for months because they have high MFs when compared to lower MF contracts. Braindead’s point is valid. Occasionally a listing will show up on TSN that has lower MFs and it lasts for a day or so at most before it’s gone.
> 
> He never was comparing a retail purchase vs a resale purchase - he was simply saying what I agree with - be careful with many of the listings on TSN as many of their listings are “free” because they are higher MF resale contracts that are difficult to get rid of even for free. I’ve seen the same thing from other timeshare resale companies such as Sumday that have free listings. Difficult to even give high MF contracts away. I know many owners with high MF resale contracts who haven’t been able to find anyone to give it away to because there is very little demand for high MF contracts out there.
> 
> ...



I see your point and his and they do have validity. I suppose my point is that free is best. You are right, you want the lowest MF possible to garner the greatest value. Even paying 3 to 6 dollars per thousand can be avoided if you scour for a free one. No need to be in a hurry to hook up with a timeshare, time is your friend 

I totally agree you need to watch MF whether it’s retail, resale or free. 


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## pedro47 (Jan 26, 2020)

No you mean a timeshare sale person dId not tell the truth. His lips were moving and he never talked about maintenance fees or buying resell.
How dare that sell person.


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 26, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> No you mean a timeshare sale person do not tell the truth. His lips were moving and he never talked about maintenance fees or buying resell.
> How dare that sell person.



Just from the few presentations I have attended, they only talked price (that kept dropping with each no from me). I can’t ever recall them telling me of the MF, special assessments, etc. That are attached to owning a TS unless I specifically asked. Even then the answer was hazy.


I would not expect them to talk about the resale market but would expect them to be truthful on all financial obligations attached to the TS with potential customers. On my last presentation, the sales guy even told me all I pay was the price agreed. He blushed when I asked about MF.


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 26, 2020)

55plus said:


> Sales Weasels get away with their lies because of the disclaimer buried in the contract that states in so many words, any promises, statements, etc., are null and void if not included in writing in the purchase contract. If it's not in print it's moot.



Absolutely correct and here’s just one example (see bullet 2):







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## Timesharehater123! (Jan 26, 2020)

So, i have a weeks timeshare with Silverleaf Resorts.  What is the best way to get rid of it?  my monthly fees are 107.00 per month.


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## cbyrne1174 (Jan 26, 2020)

Timesharehater123! said:


> So, i have a weeks timeshare with Silverleaf Resorts.  What is the best way to get rid of it?  my monthly fees are 107.00 per month.




You're in the wrong section. This is for Wyndham. Your only choices are to default on it or find some sucker to take it. I don't think Silverleaf can be dumped very easily, it isn't a major brand so you're probably going to have to take a credit hit.


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 26, 2020)

Wyndham’s sales practices has been smacked before the Courts a few times.

This Court verdict is very revealing. 




			https://dolanlawfirm.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Order-On-Post-Trial-Motions-20170310.pdf
		



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## Richelle (Jan 26, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> You're in the wrong section. This is for Wyndham. Your only choices are to default on it or find some sucker to take it. I don't think Silverleaf can be dumped very easily, it isn't a major brand so you're probably going to have to take a credit hit.


They should call the resort first before walking away. Some resorts have deedback programs.    Walking away should only be done when there are no other options. The owners of that resort have to pay for the lawyers and debt collection agencies to try and get payment. When that fails, the owners pay for the lawyers to foreclose on the property. They pay all of this in the form of their maintenance fees increasing. This is especially costly for owners of the smaller resorts because there are fewer owners to split the costs.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 26, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> Wyndham’s sales practices has been smacked before the Courts a few times.
> 
> This Court verdict is very revealing.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the share. This court document all but proves IMHO what I’ve always said - plausible deniability is used to isolate the executive team - but they are all 100% aware of and indirectly - by doing nothing about any of it - approve of the miserable sales tactics employed. The case is dated March 2017 so it was a few years ago and certainly before the new CEO joined Wyndham - but old habits die hard. The ends still seem to justify the means.


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## Braindead (Jan 26, 2020)

Richelle said:


> The owners of that resort have to pay for the lawyers and debt collection agencies to try and get payment. When that fails, the owners pay for the lawyers to foreclose on the property. They pay all of this in the form of their maintenance fees increasing. This is especially costly for owners of the smaller resorts because there are fewer owners to split the costs.


Totally agree! Although a different poster in this thread has stated in other threads that the other owners do NOT pay.


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## Richelle (Jan 26, 2020)

Braindead said:


> Totally agree! Although a different poster in this thread has stated in other threads that the other owners do NOT pay.



My response to that person would be, are the lawyers working for free? The resort has to come up with funds to pay their fees. Where else will they get the money from? Are they running an illegal casino in the basement?


I don’t expect people to know how businesses function. Just know that the money comes from somewhere. It doesn’t just magically appear. Unless they are running a brothel in one of their buildings, their main source of income is the owners.


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## silentg (Jan 26, 2020)

Was your silver leaf resort bought by HICV? If so contact Holiday Inn CLub to see if they will do a deedback for you.


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## Timesharehater123! (Jan 26, 2020)

silentg said:


> Was your silver leaf resort bought by HICV? If so contact Holiday Inn CLub to see if they will do a deedback for you.


Yes, it was bought by HICV.  I saw them today.  they tried to get met convert to HICV for the mere price of $40,000 they will take my deed back and stick me with another one.  But i will call and see if they would just take it back.


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## silentg (Jan 26, 2020)

Timesharehater123! said:


> Yes, it was bought by HICV.  I saw them today.  they tried to get met convert to HICV for the mere price of $40,000 they will take my deed back and stick me with another one.  But i will call and see if they would just take it back.


Yes That is what I would do.


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 26, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Thanks for the share. This court document all but proves IMHO what I’ve always said - plausible deniability is used to isolate the executive team - but they are all 100% aware of and indirectly - by doing nothing about any of it - approve of the miserable sales tactics employed. The case is dated March 2017 so it was a few years ago and certainly before the new CEO joined Wyndham - but old habits die hard. The ends still seem to justify the means.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I appreciate your opinion. Here’s another one that (so far) is not going well for Wyndham. Who knows, things can turn as we progress.

Read this one, do you see a pattern?

And I could share another 360 more similar to this one that I know have been filed in 2019. Could be more...not sure...




			https://www.truthinadvertising.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Deneen-v-Wyndham-Vacation-Resorts-complaint.pdf
		



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## Fredflintstone (Jan 26, 2020)

Richelle said:


> My response to that person would be, are the lawyers working for free? The resort has to come up with funds to pay their fees. Where else will they get the money from? Are they running an illegal casino in the basement?
> 
> 
> I don’t expect people to know how businesses function. Just know that the money comes from somewhere. It doesn’t just magically appear. Unless they are running a brothel in one of their buildings, their main source of income is the owners.



Your points are well taken. The contracts signed by owners do bind them together. Please excuse the analogy but it reminds me of slaves chained together and marching to the work site. If some die off, the rest must put in extra efforts to drag the corpses to the site so they can be unchained from the group.

Sadly, IMO, that’s how I see ownership. All chained together and angry if some drop off leaving them to pull harder. The danger is too many die off resulting in the few left collapsing and dying of exhaustion.

Now, let’s say a few find a way to escape the chains and break free. Should they remain with the herd chained or escape to freedom? That’s a hard question and one that requires thought.

Should we criticize those trying to break free? Maybe, we should break free too? Some slaves do love slavery though because that’s all they know. Who knows, their master may show some kindness towards them. They are welcome to remain chained. However, they must drag the corpses as part of their choice to remain enslaved.

Sadly, the market is flooded with desperate folks trying hard to break free from their timeshare contracts. They try to get out by attempting to sell it for free and even pay transfer costs. The resort wants them to either remain chained or find a new owner to take their place. Some resorts, like kind masters, do allow freedom through deed back programs (yay). The rest dole out threatening letters crafted by the resort to demand payment like a master cracking the whip.

Timeshares are the very few things in the marketplace that are very hard to break free of. Thank God a few states have laws to allow folks to finally be free. People in the know can reach freedom through a few states who happens to be the master of all within that state. Almost the same as when slavery was abolished by the state. The master was no more even though they resented the change in law.

That’s why I now rent. I have the power to price compare. I can use the market to give me competitive prices. I can tell a resort to stick it and walk if they are out of line on pricing. In short, freedom.

Now, I do respect those who wish to be chained to the contract. Many say it’s benefitting them. They say they save tons and yes the resorts are beautiful places. But...they are chained to a contract and as such must carry the load no matter how heavy it may or may not get. This does include those who are trying to break free. That’s just a drawback of ownership that you must accept as an owner.

One thing to remember, non performing inventory is rented out (units with no Owner or MF attached to them) and many times those dollars EXCEED the MF. The master has ways to still make money without enslaving the rest. Oh, and those foreclosed units are sold (sometimes at a profit after costs of foreclosure) resulting in things stabilizing once again if the resort is on the ball.

Here are some links to justify my point by resorts themselves.









						Non-Performing Inventory: Make It Work for You | Grand Pacific Resorts
					

A robust rental program offers long-term self-sufficiency and financial health in addition to attracting potential new owners to your resort.



					grandpacificresorts.com
				












						Hanalei Bay Resort Rises from the Ashes | Grand Pacific Resorts
					

Thanks to the strong leadership and thoughtful collaboration of the AOAO and VOA, the resort’s new and long-time owners now have a beautiful piece of paradise to call home.



					grandpacificresorts.com
				











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## Braindead (Jan 26, 2020)

Richelle said:


> My response to that person would be, are the lawyers working for free? The resort has to come up with funds to pay their fees. Where else will they get the money from? Are they running an illegal casino in the basement?
> I don’t expect people to know how businesses function. Just know that the money comes from somewhere. It doesn’t just magically appear. Unless they are running a brothel in one of their buildings, their main source of income is the owners.


I was going to say, maybe I should change my screen name to a females name so the individual only likes my post as well instead of telling me I’m wrong.
I thought of Richelle2 or Jan M-180. Sorry Jan if that offended you but after adding the 1 I thought of M-180 after all I like to blast them at times.lol
But now I see I’m too late as they responded to Richelle as well


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 26, 2020)

Braindead said:


> I was going to say, maybe I should change my screen name to a females name so the individual only likes my post as well instead of telling me I’m wrong.
> I thought of Richelle2 or Jan M-180. Sorry Jan if that offended you but after adding the 1 I thought of M-180 after all I like to blast them at times.lol
> But now I see I’m too late as they responded to Richelle as well



Braindead can be male or female.

There are times I like your points and do acknowledge when your points have validity or I agree with them.

You do craft clever comments. 


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## LannyPC (Jan 26, 2020)

55plus said:


> Sales Weasels get away with their lies because...



...you can't prove that they lied.  It's just the marks' words against the sales people's.  And yes, the language and clauses in the contract are another reason.


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 26, 2020)

LannyPC said:


> ...you can't prove that they lied. It's just the marks' words against the sales people's. And yes, the language and clauses in the contract are another reason.



Great point.

One of the latest strategies being employed by some developers is to video record the entire signing process. I understand this has helped many a resort prove they are the ones being lied about.

I can see video recording on sign offs becoming the norm very soon. 


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## LannyPC (Jan 26, 2020)

Richelle said:


> They should call the resort first before walking away. Some resorts have deedback programs.    Walking away should only be done when there are no other options. The owners of that resort have to pay for the lawyers and debt collection agencies to try and get payment. When that fails, the owners pay for the lawyers to foreclose on the property. They pay all of this in the form of their maintenance fees increasing. This is especially costly for owners of the smaller resorts because there are fewer owners to split the costs.



Totally agree.  It's cheaper for the resort to take it back from an owner amicably than to go through the costs and rigours of foreclosure.  The resort's HOA might even get the owner to pay closing costs and the next MF.  That works out even better for the resort and HOA.


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 26, 2020)

LannyPC said:


> Totally agree. It's cheaper for the resort to take it back from an owner amicably than to go through the costs and rigours of foreclosure. The resort's HOA might even get the owner to pay closing costs and the next MF. That works out even better for the resort and HOA.



Deedbacks programs need to be applauded. I think if timeshares were easier to escape from, more folks may buy in and the resale values will go up too. The master-slave analogy would be broken with viable outs.

To the developers credit, they are starting to see deed backs as a solution and possibly profitable too. When I was reading the financials of WYND, I saw a line showing revenue from converting deed backs to retail pricing on new owners on some resorts. It’s like a gift that can keeps on giving.


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## LannyPC (Jan 26, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> One of the latest strategies being employed by some developers is to video record the entire signing process. I understand this has helped many a resort prove they are the ones being lied about.



Yeah, they might record the signing process which shows that the buyer(s) signed of their own free will, but the videos do not record the sales process which records all the skewed figures, omission of pertinent facts, half-truths, and outright lies that the sales people tell.

Although, it would be funny if it weren't so tragic, to have the signing process recorded with the buyers shown as angry, tired, hungry, and emotionally drained after a 4-hour sales presentation.


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 26, 2020)

LannyPC said:


> Yeah, they might record the signing process which shows that the buyer(s) signed of their own free will, but it the videos do not record the sales process which records all the skewed figures, omission of pertinent facts, half-truths, and outright lies that the sales people tell.
> 
> Although, it would be funny if it weren't so tragic, to have the signing process recorded with the buyers shown as angry, tired, hungry, and emotionally drained after a 4-hour sales presentation.



Yes recording would be selective for sure. I think they want to show that they reviewed recission and some key conditions. Perhaps just enough to prove an informed sign off. Im with you. Any dirty business will not be recorded. 


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## cman (Jan 27, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> Wyndham’s sales practices has been smacked before the Courts a few times.
> 
> This Court verdict is very revealing.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing that link. In the long run, I guess it's just more of what we already know. I'm a timeshare "user". I rent and have never owned. I just never could wrap my head around doing business with someone, where the expectation was that they would lie to me and misrepresent their product.


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 27, 2020)

cman said:


> Thanks for sharing that link. In the long run, I guess it's just more of what we already know. I'm a timeshare "user". I rent and have never owned. I just never could wrap my head around doing business with someone, where the expectation was that they would lie to me and misrepresent their product.



Im with you. 




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## paxsarah (Jan 27, 2020)

cman said:


> Thanks for sharing that link. In the long run, I guess it's just more of what we already know. I'm a timeshare "user". I rent and have never owned. I just never could wrap my head around doing business with someone, where the expectation was that they would lie to me and misrepresent their product.



As a resale owner, I’ve never done business with the sales staff and never heard the lies and misrepresentations firsthand. The resort and phone staff have been nothing but helpful and on the up-and-up, in my experience. I see it kind of like I don’t want to have to haggle with a used-car guy who doesn’t have my best interest at heart, so I buy at a set price through Carmax instead. Just because the sales guy might use high pressure tactics, the car itself is perfectly good.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Jan 27, 2020)

cman said:


> .... I'm a timeshare "user". I rent and have never owned. I just never could wrap my head around doing business with someone, where the expectation was
> that they would lie to me and misrepresent their product.





paxsarah said:


> ....... I see it kind of like I don’t want to have to haggle with a used-car guy who doesn’t have my best interest at heart, so I buy at a set price through Carmax instead. Just because the sales guy might use high pressure tactics, the car itself is perfectly good.



Volkswagen - comes to mind 
Their diesel testing / compliance “issue” - doesn’t mean Volkswagen’s aren’t good vehicles .


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 27, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> Deedbacks programs need to be applauded. I think if timeshares were easier to escape from, more folks may buy in and the resale values will go up too. The master-slave analogy would be broken with viable outs.
> 
> To the developers credit, they are starting to see deed backs as a solution and possibly profitable too. When I was reading the financials of WYND, I saw a line showing revenue from converting deed backs to retail pricing on new owners on some resorts. It’s like a gift that can keeps on giving.
> 
> ...



On a related note - one of the items that the COO specifically mentioned at the annual owners meeting in Austin is that they are seriously looking into time locked timeshare agreements - due mostly in part that their marketing research indicates that modern buyers from the two most recent generations (millennials and beyond) don't want to be timelocked into anything in perpetuity.  Wyndham is therefore looking at the viability of selling timelocked timeshare contracts - basically leases - instead of the permanent contracts sold today.  I actually see this as "advantage Wyndham" because - just like with vehicle leases - you effectively get to resell the same inventory at future - read higher - prices if people renew their timeshare lease.


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## 55plus (Jan 27, 2020)

LannyPC said:


> ...you can't prove that they lied.  It's just the marks' words against the sales people's.  And yes, the language and clauses in the contract are another reason.


They've lie to my face many times. The weasels don't like to be questioned and called out on their lies because I've done it. Is there anyone on TUG who wasn't lied to by a weasel? Very few if any.


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## LannyPC (Jan 27, 2020)

55plus said:


> They've lie to my face many times. The weasels don't like to be questioned and called out on their lies because I've done it. Is there anyone on TUG who wasn't lied to by a weasel?



I'm not saying they don't lie.  I've been lied to by these sales people before.  I'm saying that you have to prove that they lied. Unfortunately, your word against theirs is not going to hold up in court. Since the only proof that you have that they lied is telling what they said to you, the sales people can get away with lying.


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## 55plus (Jan 27, 2020)

LannyPC said:


> I'm not saying they don't lie.  I've been lied to by these sales people before.  I'm saying that you have to prove that they lied. Unfortunately, your word against theirs is not going to hold up in court. Since the only proof that you have that they lied is telling what they said to you, the sales people can get away with lying.


The disclaimer about promises being moot if not written into the contract prevents the 'he said, she said' from going to mediation or moving forward in the courts.


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 27, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> On a related note - one of the items that the COO specifically mentioned at the annual owners meeting in Austin is that they are seriously looking into time locked timeshare agreements - due mostly in part that their marketing research indicates that modern buyers from the two most recent generations (millennials and beyond) don't want to be timelocked into anything in perpetuity. Wyndham is therefore looking at the viability of selling timelocked timeshare contracts - basically leases - instead of the permanent contracts sold today. I actually see this as "advantage Wyndham" because - just like with vehicle leases - you effectively get to resell the same inventory at future - read higher - prices if people renew their timeshare lease.



That’s actually a cool idea for both owner and developer. This would give a viable out at some point for the owner. On the developers side, the plus is they can potentially scoop up more dollars on a renew. 

It would be interesting to see if all contracts were converted to leases. I am not sure if that would be possible. What the developer could do (maybe, but I would see court challenges) is jack up the MF on owners to force them to move to lease at a lower rate?

IMO, they should convert all TS to membership. One would pay an initiation fee (which could be the same as a retail cost) and then yearly membership fees. The member could choose to let the membership expire yearly, the resort keeps full control of the property and one would resell their membership. In my mind, this is more honest anyway as the “owner” is not really an owner in a sense. The resort can change hands. If you were a true owner, that would not happen without your expressed consent. You are more like a shareholder than an owner. 

Frankly, the only thing you “own” are the bills and some time.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jan 27, 2020)

@Timesharehater123! you just bought the wrong system and paid dearly for it.  All timeshares are not horrible.  If you owned something in the Vistana/ Marriott system, you would feel differently, I would think.  There are tens of thousands of happy owners on this site; otherwise, there would be no TUG, except maybe a few disgruntled people who are unhappy.  I am quite happy with my owned units.  There are only a few I would dump.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Jan 27, 2020)

Timesharehater123! said:


> So, i have a weeks timeshare with Silverleaf Resorts.  What is the best way to get rid of it?  my monthly fees are 107.00 per month.





Timesharehater123! said:


> Yes, it was bought by HICV.  I saw them today.  they tried to get met convert to HICV for the mere price of $40,000 they will take my deed back and stick me with another one.  But i will call and see if they would just take it back.



There are TUG threads about HICV buying Silverleaf in 2016 .
AND the sales pressure to convert from Silverleaf fixed weeks to HICV points .

The additional issue beyond the $ 40K is that some owners who did convert were not given full information on how much $$$ their MF would end up increasing.and that the Silverleaf last minute bonus time program would disappear upon converting . 

If it is fully paid for &you want out - contact them about deeding back . 
If HIVC won’t consider this - you could choose to stop paying & take the credit report hit .
There is anecdotal information on TUG that you can research .


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## Richelle (Jan 27, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> That’s actually a cool idea for both owner and developer. This would give a viable out at some point for the owner. On the developers side, the plus is they can potentially scoop up more dollars on a renew.
> 
> It would be interesting to see if all contracts were converted to leases. I am not sure if that would be possible. What the developer could do (maybe, but I would see court challenges) is jack up the MF on owners to force them to move to lease at a lower rate?
> 
> ...



First, no they cannot change the terms of the contract. Changing it to a lease would require them to re-record the deed with different terms. Specifically remove the in perpetuity part. That would require your permission and signature. Secondly, Wyndham does not set the maintenance fees. They set the program fee which is lumped in with the maintenance fee payment every month. To increase the HOA fees to a point people want out, they would have to talk the HOA into increasing the maintenance fees to a high enough level for that to happen. They would have to do that with many resorts. It’s unlikely they would try that, because no matter how hard they tried, it would get out that they were trying to force people out by jacking up the maintenance fees. That would not look good, and yes, create legal issues for them. Plus, the HOA’s would have to spend that money or pay tax on it. The HOA board members would have to agree to whatever it is they are spending money on. Many are NOT Wyndham employees and would blow the whistle on that type of behavior. So it’s very unlikely that scenario would occur. More likely, it will be a new product. A different ownership type. Like CWA is an ownership type, they may start a new ownership type that has an expiration. Maybe it gets set up similar to Discovery where there is no home resort. They just have points to use at participating resorts. Finally, I wouldn’t want them to convert to a lease. I paid for in perpetuity. If they want to give the owner the option to change, that’s fine, but they SHOULD’NT convert all contracts. 

Also, on my deeded contracts, I own a portion of the resort regardless of who’s name is on that building. The name on the building is who manages the resort. If it were not “real” ownership, we wouldn’t have to record a deed. It would be just an assumption agreement like CWA and Margaritaville.


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 27, 2020)

Richelle said:


> First, no they cannot change the terms of the contract. Changing it to a lease would require them to re-record the deed with different terms. Specifically remove the in perpetuity part. That would require your permission and signature. Secondly, Wyndham does not set the maintenance fees. They set the program fee which is lumped in with the maintenance fee payment every month. To increase the HOA fees to a point people want out, they would have to talk the HOA into increasing the maintenance fees to a high enough level for that to happen. They would have to do that with many resorts. It’s unlikely they would try that, because no matter how hard they tried, it would get out that they were trying to force people out by jacking up the maintenance fees. That would not look good, and yes, create legal issues for them. Plus, the HOA’s would have to spend that money or pay tax on it. The HOA board members would have to agree to whatever it is they are spending money on. Many are NOT Wyndham employees and would blow the whistle on that type of behavior. So it’s very unlikely that scenario would occur. More likely, it will be a new product. A different ownership type. Like CWA is an ownership type, they may start a new ownership type that has an expiration. Maybe it gets set up similar to Discovery where there is no home resort. They just have points to use at participating resorts. Finally, I wouldn’t want them to convert to a lease. I paid for in perpetuity. If they want to give the owner the option to change, that’s fine, but they SHOULD’NT convert all contracts.
> 
> Also, on my deeded contracts, I own a portion of the resort regardless of who’s name is on that building. The name on the building is who manages the resort. If it were not “real” ownership, we wouldn’t have to record a deed. It would be just an assumption agreement like CWA and Margaritaville.



Yes, I’m pretty sure you are right on changing ownership to leases. However, on other items, they can change point value and other terms with notice. Your trading power can be adjusted. Yes, you own 1/52 per deed normally. However, it is more like a shareholder scenario. You “own” a small fraction but have little say on what happens. You can outline your concerns to the BOD, but they are under no obligation to act on them. On points systems, you normally own a very small fraction of the total trust. Again, your share means you have little say (other than to communicate your concerns) on what happens. 

As for MF and other fees, they really do have the right to charge at will as per contracts. Every contract I have seen states this and that they can assign to anyone they want (however, you can not assign on your end).


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## Richelle (Jan 27, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> Yes, I’m pretty sure you are right on changing ownership to leases. However, on other items, they can change point value and other terms with notice. Your trading power can be adjusted. Yes, you own 1/52 per deed normally. However, it is more like a shareholder scenario. You “own” a small fraction but have little say on what happens. You can outline your concerns to the BOD, but they are under no obligation to act on them. On points systems, you normally own a very small fraction of the total trust. Again, your share means you have little say (other than to communicate your concerns) on what happens.
> 
> As for MF and other fees, they really do have the right to charge at will as per contracts. Every contract I have seen states this and that they can assign to anyone they want (however, you can not assign on your end).
> 
> ...



They cannot change point values of the resorts when they are set. If they add buildings to existing resorts, they can and do set different point values for them, but the existing ones stay the same. The fraction of ownership you own, does not change. If you bought when there was only building 1 and 2, and you bought enough points for a one bedroom, you will have enough points for a one bedroom in those two buildings. That will not change. If they add a third building, those values may be different, but your fractional ownership doesn’t not change. You still have the same ownership you did for buildings one and two. There is no trading power in Club Wyndham. That’s RCI you are thinking of and I cannot say if they change trading power. I’ve never seen it happen with our weeks. 

You are making broad statements on what HOAs can and cannot do, or what they will or will not do. Each HOA has its own bylaws. When there are certain changes made, they have rules they have to follow in the bylaws. Some are more restrictive then others. You cannot say that no one person has any say unless you know the bylaws of every single Wyndham resort. 

You’re right that “they” can set the budget, but “They” are the resort and NOT Wyndham. Wyndham does not set the maintenance fees of the resort. They cannot tell the resorts what to charge. The HOA’s decide the budget and what they will charge. Wyndham cannot dictate what they charge. You’re are claiming they have more control then they actually do. Wyndham can only control their fees, which in the case of your monthly payment, is the program fee.


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## Braindead (Jan 27, 2020)

All Wyndham has to do is put in the contract that if the buyers contract is paid off & in good standing. If the buyer wants to exit their ownership they’ll receive 3 years of points at no extra cost.
That would also be a selling point giving the buyer a guaranteed exit at no cost to the buyer. Sales could then also say if you buy resale there’s no guaranteed exit of the ownership. This might even cut down on resales availability after a few years.

Wyndham could use a version of the Discovery Package for 5 or 10 years. But there’s no way their coming after current owners. Could you imagine the chaos that would create rallying owners to vote on not allowing Wyndham to manage the individual resorts. Not to mention the legality & lawsuits that would follow

Richelle is right that they can’t change gross points at a resort to water down owners points


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## Fredflintstone (Jan 27, 2020)

Braindead said:


> All Wyndham has to do is put in the contract that if the buyers contract is paid off & in good standing. If the buyer wants to exit their ownership they’ll receive 3 years of points at no extra cost.
> That would also be a selling point giving the buyer a guaranteed exit at no cost to the buyer. Sales could then also say if you buy resale there’s no guaranteed exit of the ownership. This might even cut down on resales availability after a few years.
> 
> Wyndham could use a version of the Discovery Package for 5 or 10 years. But there’s no way their coming after current owners. Could you imagine the chaos that would create rallying owners to vote on not allowing Wyndham to manage the individual resorts. Not to mention the legality & lawsuits that would follow
> ...



I agree that they can not change point value on your contract. What i mean is the value of the points themselves can change. For example, your 120 k points can have less or more trading power. 


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## Richelle (Jan 27, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> I agree that they can not change point value on your contract. What i mean is the value of the points themselves can change. For example, your 120 k points can have less or more trading power.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



120,000 points spend the same across the system. If by “Trading power” you’re referring to the fact that at some resorts, 120,000 will get you a two bedroom on low season but only a studio in prime season, yes, it’s different. Just like you can get a hotel room for $200 a night in prime season, and $50 a night during low season. Or one hotel is $500 a night but a totally different hotel is $50 a night.


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## Jan M. (Jan 27, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> I agree that they can not change point value on your contract. What i mean is the value of the points themselves can change. For example, your 120 k points can have less or more trading power.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



No the value doesn't change! The very first points we bought in 2002 still get us exactly the same stays at every resort that was in the system at that time. We don't use any more points to book stays at those resorts than we did in 2002.

Over the years new resorts came into the system, each come their own point charts. Our points get us exactly the same stays now as they did when each of those resorts came into the system. Yes the resorts coming into the system now are varying amounts of higher points to book which is to be expected. I can't think of a single thing that costs the same 18 years later as it did in 2002. Well, except for someone's theoretical two cents worth. Lol.


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## spackler (Jan 27, 2020)

LannyPC said:


> Yeah, they might record the signing process which shows that the buyer(s) signed of their own free will, but the videos do not record the sales process which records all the skewed figures, omission of pertinent facts, half-truths, and outright lies that the sales people tell.



In certain states, it's perfectly legal for prospects to audio record the sales process, even without the salesman's knowledge.


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## 55plus (Jan 27, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> I agree that they can not change point value on your contract. What i mean is the value of the points themselves can change. For example, your 120 k points can have less or more trading power.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The million plus points my parents bought from Fairfield in the mid '90s has the same trading power today in the Wyndham system today. Older resorts require less points than the newer resorts. That's where the difference comes I to play.


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## 55plus (Jan 27, 2020)

55plus said:


> The million plus points my parents bought from Fairfield in the mid '90s has the same trading power today in the Wyndham system today. Older resorts require less points than the newer resorts. That's where the difference comes I to play.


To add to my post above, the million plus points (VIP Platinum) my parents purchased for around $30K in the mid '90s verse today's cost of well over $100K, one could stretch it to say trading power increased somewhat if you factor in the variables and not factor in the increase in the maintenance fees, something that everyone is subject to.


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## Braindead (Jan 27, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> I agree that they can not change point value on your contract. What i mean is the value of the points themselves can change. For example, your 120 k points can have less or more trading power.


Wyndham cannot change the points of owners contracts & they cannot change the percentage of ownership of the contract in relationship to the overall ownership of the resort. If they could that would be like a fixed weeks resort deciding that there’s now 60 weeks in a year. That cannot happen with weeks or a points ownership.

As for trading power at 10 months we’re exchanging our points for trading power in the Wyndham system.
We have the same trading power for our home resort at 10 months as our rights under ARP period meaning we use the same points chart at 10 months that we use for ARP reservations.  Trading power varies by resorts as others have pointed.


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## dgalati (Jan 28, 2020)

55plus said:


> To add to my post above, the million plus points (VIP Platinum) my parents purchased for around $30K in the mid '90s verse today's cost of well over $100K, one could stretch it to say trading power increased somewhat if you factor in the variables and not factor in the increase in the maintenance fees, something that everyone is subject to.


Not the Trading power that has increased it is the initial purchase price vs price that was paid  $/1000 or about 70% lower. Put aside the sunk cost and how much has the monthly maintenance cost risen over the last 25 years?


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## LannyPC (Jan 28, 2020)

spackler said:


> In certain states, it's perfectly legal for prospects to audio record the sales process, even without the salesman's knowledge.



That's good to know.  True as that may be, what are the chances that a prospect is going to walk into a presentation with recording equipment ready to record everything?  And anyone who does is probably familiar with the TS presentation process and knows not to buy at these presentations.  IOW, a person "green around the gills" about timesharing who goes into a presentation (the ones who seem to be the most susceptible to falling for the sales pitch) has no idea what he's getting into and, hence, won't think about cuing up recording equipment. 

Although, it would be interesting to see, if it went to court, what would happen if a person did record everything (including the lies), purchased, signed the contract including the clause that essentially states that the written contract is what counts, and then presented the recorded evidence.  What would win out?  What was said by the sales person or what is in the contract the buyer signed?


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## spackler (Jan 28, 2020)

You don't need "recording equipment", as 99% of our phones are perfectly capable of doing audio recordings.  Just tap "record" on your app & leave it on the table in front of you - no one would suspect anything. 

But yes, the type of people who fall for the timeshare pitch probably aren't going to think to do this.

Again, you'd have to do the research ahead of time to see if your state allows only one-party consent for audio recordings.  To my knowledge, Florida (a big TS destination) does NOT allow this.

Would it help from a legal standpoint?  I have no idea...but Wyndham (or whomever) might be more willing to work with you from a PR perspective.


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## dgalati (Jan 31, 2020)

Braindead said:


> All Wyndham has to do is put in the contract that if the buyers contract is paid off & in good standing. If the buyer wants to exit their ownership they’ll receive 3 years of points at no extra cost.
> That would also be a selling point giving the buyer a guaranteed exit at no cost to the buyer. Sales could then also say if you buy resale there’s no guaranteed exit of the ownership. This might even cut down on resales availability after a few years.
> 
> Wyndham could use a version of the Discovery Package for 5 or 10 years. But there’s no way their coming after current owners. Could you imagine the chaos that would create rallying owners to vote on not allowing Wyndham to manage the individual resorts. Not to mention the legality & lawsuits that would follow
> ...


Let me get this straight you would use Ovations or "The promise to take back a ownership for free" as a selling point? Its hard to believe the logic behind your statement. Wyndham should convince prospective buyers the ownership is worth 30k but then convince the buyer that after its paid off  Wyndham will pay $0 when buyer exits. The statement of "at no cost to buyer" is only correct if you don't consider the 30k sunk cost. Sounds like Wyndham math to me buy at 30k sell at $0 recieve 3 years of use without paying maintenance fees. 154,000 points can be rented at $6/1000 or $900 per year giving and a Total value of $2700 on exiting. Great deal for Wyndham only IMHO. It would be better off for many to buy resale at $100 all in then paying the developer price of 30K.


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## Braindead (Jan 31, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Let me get this straight you would use Ovations or "The promise to take back a ownership for free" as a selling point? Its hard to believe the logic behind your statement. Wyndham should convince prospective buyers the ownership is worth 30k but then convince the buyer that after its paid off  Wyndham will pay $0 when buyer exits. The statement of "at no cost to buyer" is only correct if you don't consider the 30k sunk cost. Sounds like Wyndham math to me buy at 30k sell at $0 recieve 3 years of use without paying maintenance fees. 154,000 points can be rented at $6/1000 or $900 per year giving and a Total value of $2700 on exiting. Great deal for Wyndham only IMHO. It would be better off for many to buy resale at $100 all in then paying the developer price of 30K.


My math is $2,700 to the owner exiting in YOUR OWN example is more than $0!!
You’re flat out saying dgalati math is $2,700 =$0. Your own math is so much worse than what you call Wyndham math.
I’d say dgalati math $2,700 =$0 is the ultimate DAZE & CONFUSE
Not only that many rent at more than $6 per 1k points
Many are worried if the current Wyndham exits will always be there.
My example takes care of that by guaranteeing exit with 3 years of points


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## SNA27 (Jan 31, 2020)

Braindead said:


> *All Wyndham has to do is put in the contract that if the buyers contract is paid off & in good standing. If the buyer wants to exit their ownership they’ll receive 3 years of points at no extra cost.
> That would also be a selling point giving the buyer a guaranteed exit at no cost to the buyer.* Sales could then also say if you buy resale there’s no guaranteed exit of the ownership. This might even cut down on resales availability after a few years.
> 
> Wyndham could use a version of the Discovery Package for 5 or 10 years. But there’s no way their coming after current owners. Could you imagine the chaos that would create rallying owners to vote on not allowing Wyndham to manage the individual resorts. Not to mention the legality & lawsuits that would follow
> ...





dgalati said:


> *Let me get this straight you would use Ovations or "The promise to take back a ownership for free" as a selling point? *Its hard to believe the logic behind your statement. Wyndham should convince prospective buyers the ownership is worth 30k but then convince the buyer that after its paid off  Wyndham will pay $0 when buyer exits. The statement of "at no cost to buyer" is only correct if you don't consider the 30k sunk cost. Sounds like Wyndham math to me buy at 30k sell at $0 recieve 3 years of use without paying maintenance fees. 154,000 points can be rented at $6/1000 or $900 per year giving and a Total value of $2700 on exiting. Great deal for Wyndham only IMHO. It would be better off for many to buy resale at $100 all in then paying the developer price of 30K.





Braindead said:


> My math is $2,700 to the owner exiting in YOUR OWN example is more than $0!!
> You’re flat out saying dgalati math is $2,700 =$0. Your own math is so much worse than what you call Wyndham math.
> I’d say dgalati math $2,700 =$0 is the ultimate DAZE & CONFUSE
> Not only that many rent at more than $6 per 1k points
> ...



I wish Wyndham had used Guaranteed Exit via Ovations line when they sold me! I would have made a guaranteed exit through the door and saved myself a ton of money!


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## SNA27 (Jan 31, 2020)

@dgalati is fundamentally right. 
It makes no sense to buy at developer prices with '_great foresight_' to turn it back into Ovations for $0 + 3 years of usage. 
Greater foresight would be to run to exit while stopping by at the gift desk to grab the reward.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 31, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Let me get this straight you would use Ovations or "The promise to take back a ownership for free" as a selling point? Its hard to believe the logic behind your statement. Wyndham should convince prospective buyers the ownership is worth 30k but then convince the buyer that after its paid off Wyndham will pay $0 when buyer exits. The statement of "at no cost to buyer" is only correct if you don't consider the 30k sunk cost. Sounds like Wyndham math to me buy at 30k sell at $0 recieve 3 years of use without paying maintenance fees. 154,000 points can be rented at $6/1000 or $900 per year giving and a Total value of $2700 on exiting. Great deal for Wyndham only IMHO. It would be better off for many to buy resale at $100 all in then paying the developer price of 30K.



Having a defined contractual exit strategy spelled out in advance is never a bad thing IMHO, so I disagree with your assessment here. You may not like the fact that timeshares are essentially worth nothing after a developer purchase (just like me), but having an exit clause would probably result in more developer sales for Wyndham since it’s essentially a risk mitigation strategy. The alternative is for owners to continue to be stuck with contracts in perpetuity just like they are today yes?

I will drop back and ask the same question I have asked before that has gone unanswered here. Is our goal to eliminate ALL developer purchases? If so, then our goal is to essentially bankrupt the timeshare companies in the process, at least as they are structured today. Perhaps this is the ultimate goal, but I remain suspect that this strategy will work out well for most owners. 

What will happen if resale continues to increase from a market share standpoint is that the timeshare firms will simply make it more painful to obtain resale contracts by using ROFR clauses (many already do), and putting more and more limits on resale contracts (which an increasing number of timeshare firms are doing). Let’s be careful what we wish for here. 




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## Braindead (Jan 31, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> I wish Wyndham had used Guaranteed Exit via Ovations line when they sold me! I would have made a guaranteed exit through the door and saved myself a ton of money!


You’d be surprised how many of us here that have purchased directly from Wyndham knowing full well what the resale value is & I’m one of them but along ways from being the only one.

I understand your response & you love polls. Do a poll on how many have purchased from Wyndham after knowing the resale value.
Include a group that have thought about it or are considering a purchase from Wyndham


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## SNA27 (Jan 31, 2020)

From the perspective of a salesperson, especially a weasel, it makes no sense at all to make full disclosure of the truth TS has no resale value.  
That would have woken up my addled brain from the VIP reverie of 'champagne dreams and caviar wishes'. I would've thought more clearly and found more economical ways to satisfy my vacation deprivation.


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## Braindead (Jan 31, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> @dgalati is fundamentally right.
> It makes no sense to buy at developer prices with '_great foresight_' to turn it back into Ovations for $0 + 3 years of usage.
> Greater foresight would be to run to exit while stopping by at the gift desk to grab the reward.


You say “it makes no sense” so what are implying about the ones that have made that purchase including myself.
This is not a factual matter only an opinion by you & others.
There are VIPs that have posted that it does make sense with actual numbers to backup a VIP purchase. Are they factually wrong??
I like some of the benefits that don’t have fixed $$ amounts attached like a later date to deposit points & room request as a couple of examples. How do you make blank statements that it doesn’t make sense when it obviously does to some knowing full well what the resale value is??


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## SNA27 (Jan 31, 2020)

Braindead said:


> You’d be surprised how many of us here that have purchased directly from Wyndham knowing full well what the resale value is & I’m one of them but along ways from being the only one.
> 
> I understand your response & you love polls. Do a poll on how many have purchased from Wyndham after knowing the resale value.
> Include a group that have thought about it or are considering a purchase from Wyndham



If I had been well informed as I am today and worked out numbers beforehand and performed a proper opportunity cost analysis, I would not have bought Wyndham TS. 
VIP status within the 60-day window or unlimited HK credits means days means nothing when resale owners can buy millions of points for a song relative to developer price.


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## Braindead (Jan 31, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> If I had been well informed as I am today and worked out numbers beforehand and performed a proper opportunity cost analysis, I would not have bought Wyndham TS.
> VIP status within the 60-day window or unlimited HK credits means days means nothing when resale owners can buy millions of points for a song relative to developer price.


Your missing the point. I don’t tell resale only owners “ it makes no sense to buy resale “. I think it makes total sense for many owners to buy resale.
Any owner with under 400k points might as well own 100% resale points.
Personal finances makes a huge difference in my opinion as another example if an individual should stay with all resale points


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## SNA27 (Jan 31, 2020)

Braindead said:


> You say “it makes no sense” so what are implying about the ones that have made that purchase including myself.
> This is not a factual matter only an opinion by you & others.
> There are VIPs that have posted that it does make sense with actual numbers to backup a VIP purchase. Are they factually wrong??
> I like some of the benefits that don’t have fixed $$ amounts attached like a later date to deposit points & room request as a couple of examples. How do you make blank statements that it doesn’t make sense when it obviously does to some knowing full well what the resale value is??



I imply nothing about you or me or anybody else. Please reread the complete statement as an abstraction without inserting yourself into it.

If I had the foresight to see the resale value is zero + 3 years of usage, l would have had reconsidered my purchase and  looked into how much 3 years usage would cost.

I bought VIPP and there's nothing I can do about it now. But I was only commenting on Wyndham having an epiphany and disclosing the truth about resale values. It will never happen!


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 31, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> From the perspective of a salesperson, especially a weasel, it makes no sense at all to make full disclosure of the truth TS has no resale value.
> That would have woken up my addled brain from the VIP reverie of 'champagne dreams and caviar wishes'. I would've thought more clearly and found more economical ways to satisfy my vacation deprivation.



From a sales weasel standpoint, they already lie and tell net new purchasers that they can return the timeshare if they don’t want it. This is an often asked question at the sales table which prompts an overly generic answer. People generally don’t ask for details and even when they do, the “daze and confuse” half truths approach is almost universally employed. 

From a risk mitigation perspective having an actual exit clause would help to bridge the gap from half truths and outright lies to a contractual reality - it’ll be buried in the legalese of the contract either way. Then at least Wyndham could hang their hat on “it’s in the contract that you signed.”


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 31, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> I wish Wyndham had used Guaranteed Exit via Ovations line when they sold me! I would have made a guaranteed exit through the door and saved myself a ton of money!



Wyndham also tried something similar to this in the past contractually, I believe it was called Pathways, but it only lasted for a relatively short period of time.


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## Braindead (Jan 31, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Wyndham also tried something similar to this in the past contractually, I believe it was called Pathways, but it only lasted for a relatively short period of time.


I believe owners get 20% of their purchase price back with Pathways. I believe it only lasted 2-3 years.

Here’s another shocker to dgalati & others, when I called Ovations they informed me that one of my contracts was sold with Pathways as an option for exit.
Ovations transferred to me to the appropriate department & of course I didn’t get the 20% as the contract was a resale.
The original owner could’ve received over $20,000 instead of paying an exit company thousands to get out, sad but true!!

My point is Ovations will point out Pathways 20% back even if the owner doesn’t inquire about Pathways.


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## SNA27 (Jan 31, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> From a sales weasel standpoint, they already lie and tell net new purchasers that they can return the timeshare if they don’t want it. This is an often asked question at the sales table which prompts an overly generic answer. People generally don’t ask for details and even when they do, the “daze and confuse” half truths approach is almost universally employed.
> 
> From a risk mitigation perspective having an actual exit clause would help to bridge the gap from half truths and outright lies to a contractual reality - it’ll be buried in the legalese of the contract either way. *Then at least Wyndham could hang their hat on “it’s in the contract that you signed.”*
> 
> ...



Ok, when QC has to read it aloud and ask me to initial it, that would be the wake-up call. 
What would be a better course of action for Wyndham, imo, is to cut all the sales shenanigans, tell the truth and look for ways to shore up resale values.
That would please a lot more customers who can afford to buy but are put off by their tactics.


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## SNA27 (Jan 31, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Having a defined contractual exit strategy spelled out in advance is never a bad thing IMHO, so I disagree with your assessment here. You may not like the fact that timeshares are essentially worth nothing after a developer purchase (just like me), but having an exit clause would probably result in more developer sales for Wyndham since it’s essentially a risk mitigation strategy. The alternative is for owners to continue to be stuck with contracts in perpetuity just like they are today yes?
> 
> I will drop back and ask the same question I have asked before that has gone unanswered here. Is our goal to eliminate ALL developer purchases? If so, then our goal is to essentially bankrupt the timeshare companies in the process, at least as they are structured today. Perhaps this is the ultimate goal, but I remain suspect that this strategy will work out well for most owners.
> 
> ...



What's wrong with that? Why isn't Wyndham doing all of that now to shore up resale values?


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## Jan M. (Jan 31, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> @dgalati is fundamentally right.
> It makes no sense to buy at developer prices with '_great foresight_' to turn it back into Ovations for $0 + 3 years of usage.
> Greater foresight would be to run to exit while stopping by at the gift desk to grab the reward.



A great deal of this discussion seems to be geared towards the people who buy their timeshare with no intent or interest in owning it for more than a few years to come. I'm sure there are plenty of people thinking who does that and why? Many of us who bought either developer or resale after going to the sales presentations or being a family member or friend's guest think of our timeshares as something we, our children and grandchildren will enjoy for many years to come. Hopefully after we are gone too. That was what sold us on timeshares being something we wanted regardless of how we bought in.

We all get to make our own choices about how we spend our money. Sometimes wisely and sometimes not, but our money, our choices. I could win the lottery tomorrow for mega millions and still wouldn't spend even $40,000 on a vehicle. If you look at my info you can see that we are Presidential Reserve owners so clearly we spent big bucks over the years starting back 18 years ago. We've made excellent use of our points. I didn't track what we did in the first half of the year for 2019 but we were only home 27 nights from July 18-December 19. Currently enjoying a 9 night stay at St. Thomas Margaritaville in our 2 bedroom presidential reserve unit with amazing views. So, so, so not sorry about the way we spent our money.



We hope that it won't ever come to our son or in time our two granddaughters being in a situation that they need to give up what we bought. We all like to know that we have a plan or an out if things in our lives don't go as we thought or hoped they would. But if that time came for our son or granddaughters and they could get three years use of the points I would still say that the wonderful times and memories were worth every penny we spent.

We would never have spent the money on hotels or even renting from other owners to stay as much as we have over the years. In 18 years we could easily spent more on cars, without ever buying an expensive car, than we did for our timeshares. For me cars are functional not something that brings me joy. Cars certainly aren't something that would have given us, our son and his family, both of our families and some friends so many good memories.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jan 31, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Ok, when QC has to read it aloud and ask me to initial it, that would be the wake-up call.
> What would be a better course of action for Wyndham, imo, is to cut all the sales shenanigans, tell the truth and look for ways to shore up resale values.
> That would please a lot more customers who can afford to buy but are put off by their tactics.



Resale values on timeshares are never going to be remotely close to what people pay the developers, with few exceptions. Disney timeshares AFAIK hold some value - and a few others that are more of a boutique brand do as well. Hilton, Marriott and Diamond have the same resale value issues that Wyndham does more or less. 

There is never going to be a “shoring up resale values” since there is no real legitimate secondary market for timeshare purchases, for the same reason that there is no legitimate mortgage refinance market for timeshares. Because they are basically a form of financing the future value of vacations discounted to present time, which is largely subjective IMHO, or what is often referred to as “perceived value” here in TUG and elsewhere with respect to timeshare purchases.

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## SNA27 (Jan 31, 2020)

Ok, let me synthesize my original comment to its essence. 
No sane salesperson would like to point out the incurable defects of a product he is selling. 
No sane buyer would buy a product after its incurable defects have been brought to light.


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## Braindead (Jan 31, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> No sane buyer would buy a product after its incurable defects have been brought to light.


You just dug yourself a deeper whole to get out of!! I can’t believe you just said that!! No further comment needed


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## SNA27 (Jan 31, 2020)

Braindead said:


> You just dug yourself a deeper whole to get out of!! I can’t believe you just said that!! No further comment needed


Nonsequitur! Obviously, no further nonsequiturs would make any more sense!


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## SNA27 (Jan 31, 2020)

Braindead said:


> You’d be surprised how many of us here that have purchased directly from Wyndham knowing full well what the resale value is & I’m one of them but along ways from being the only one.
> 
> I understand your response & you love polls. Do a poll on how many have purchased from Wyndham after knowing the resale value.
> Include a group that have thought about it or are considering a purchase from Wyndham



It's not that I love polls. TUGBBS has a polling feature and I played with it! As an incurable experimenter, I love to play with the toys I am handed and get maximum satisfaction testing the limits.  

You want a poll, you could set it up yourself. But I would be glad to help. Think about your polling questions and PM me and I will post a poll.


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## dgalati (Feb 1, 2020)

Braindead said:


> Your missing the point. I don’t tell resale only owners “ it makes no sense to buy resale “. I think it makes total sense for many owners to buy resale.
> Any owner with under 400k points might as well own 100% resale points.
> Personal finances makes a huge difference in my opinion as another example if an individual should stay with all resale points


Personal finace is not included in a developer sale. Wyndham finaces at 17% rates and above for a reason. It is unsecured debt no different then high interest credit card debt.  Wyndham Ovation stategy is a option that will help many I agree but What they sold as a 30k vacation ownership is worth $0 when exiting. Wyndham sets the resale $ bar so low and this benefits who the most?


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## dgalati (Feb 1, 2020)

Richelle said:


> My response to that person would be, are the lawyers working for free? The resort has to come up with funds to pay their fees. Where else will they get the money from? Are they running an illegal casino in the basement?
> 
> 
> I don’t expect people to know how businesses function. Just know that the money comes from somewhere. It doesn’t just magically appear. Unless they are running a brothel in one of their buildings, their main source of income is the owners.


Think about the income Wyndham recieves on the following at who's cost? Ovations will give 3 years of free use without paying maintenance fees to a owner who purchased through developer. Essentially it should be considered selling a stripped deed if Wyndham sells that deed to a new owner with all points available when deed is sold before the 3 years of free use.


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## Braindead (Feb 1, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I will drop back and ask the same question I have asked before that has gone unanswered here. Is our goal to eliminate ALL developer purchases? If so, then our goal is to essentially bankrupt the timeshare companies in the process, at least as they are structured today. Perhaps this is the ultimate goal, but I remain suspect that this strategy will work out well for most owners.
> 
> What will happen if resale continues to increase from a market share standpoint is that the timeshare firms will simply make it more painful to obtain resale contracts by using ROFR clauses (many already do), and putting more and more limits on resale contracts (which an increasing number of timeshare firms are doing). Let’s be careful what we wish for here.


Hope you’re not holding your breath waiting for @dgalati to answer your repeatedly asked question.


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## HitchHiker71 (Feb 1, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Ok, let me synthesize my original comment to its essence.
> No sane salesperson would like to point out the incurable defects of a product he is selling.
> No sane buyer would buy a product after its incurable defects have been brought to light.



Agreed that sales people are not likely to point out weaknesses or known defects in the products or services that they sell. Every sales team known to man is going to oversell the strong points and not mention or downplay the weak points. 

If Wyndham were to implement Ovations contractually, I’m 100% certain the marketing division would produce collateral that sells the strong points while avoiding the weak points, while providing talking points to the sales force to help mitigate the weak points - basically elevator speech talking points - to help address the weak points at the sales table when they are bought to light by prospective buyers. 

Just because you choose to perceive something as a weak point doesn’t mean that it is a weak point, it is a perception issue on some level. Just like most other things in life. One mans trash is another mans treasure. Not everything can be boiled down to binary answers when perception is taken into account.


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## Braindead (Feb 1, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> It's not that I love polls. TUGBBS has a polling feature and I played with it! As an incurable experimenter, I love to play with the toys I am handed and get maximum satisfaction testing the limits.
> 
> You want a poll, you could set it up yourself. But I would be glad to help. Think about your polling questions and PM me and I will post a poll.


I didn’t mean my poll comment as being a negative  comment.
I truly think you’d be surprised how many here have made purchases from Wyndham while knowing the resale value of the contracts they’re purchasing or are thinking of enrolling PICs with a purchase in the future to obtain a VIP account


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## SNA27 (Feb 3, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Having a defined contractual exit strategy spelled out in advance is never a bad thing IMHO, so I disagree with your assessment here. You may not like the fact that timeshares are essentially worth nothing after a developer purchase (just like me), but having an exit clause would probably result in more developer sales for Wyndham since it’s essentially a risk mitigation strategy. The alternative is for owners to continue to be stuck with contracts in perpetuity just like they are today yes?
> 
> *I will drop back and ask the same question I have asked before that has gone unanswered here. Is our goal to eliminate ALL developer purchases? If so, then our goal is to essentially bankrupt the timeshare companies in the process, at least as they are structured today.* Perhaps this is the ultimate goal, but I remain suspect that this strategy will work out well for most owners.
> 
> ...



I am very conflicted about the various takes on this subject.
I have heard resale owners claim that they're supporting Wyndham from collapsing by taking over MF dues. And that developer purchases don't really do anything for an existing resort which has sold all of its UDI. A resort is self-sustaining as long as its MFs are paid to sustain it. It's an irrefutable argument.
I used to think developer purchases funded new resorts. But there's much bigger capital chasing profits that can build new resorts if it made financial sense. So, developer purchases may just be funding extravagant executive pay and the unwholesome sales staff.
So, even as a VIPP owner with only developer purchases, I am unable to argue in favor of the hypothesis that Wyndham will collapse without retail purchase. They may collapse due to mismanagement and/or accounting fraud. If retail resale purchasers are helping pay the freight, it's hard to argue that they are the cause of any potential bankruptcy of a dubious and decrepit business model!

You can't blame the death on the scavenger, who's merely cleaning up the mess left behind!


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## SNA27 (Feb 3, 2020)

-- dupe --


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## Fredflintstone (Feb 3, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> From a sales weasel standpoint, they already lie and tell net new purchasers that they can return the timeshare if they don’t want it. This is an often asked question at the sales table which prompts an overly generic answer. People generally don’t ask for details and even when they do, the “daze and confuse” half truths approach is almost universally employed.
> 
> From a risk mitigation perspective having an actual exit clause would help to bridge the gap from half truths and outright lies to a contractual reality - it’ll be buried in the legalese of the contract either way. Then at least Wyndham could hang their hat on “it’s in the contract that you signed.”
> 
> ...



Good point. The key here is to read the contract before signing. If the salesperson tells you anything, it must be in the contract. Take your time reading each page regardless of how much pressure they give you to just sign and move on. IMO, if most folks did that, they would most likely push the paperwork back, grab their trinket and walk out the door.

Excellent point that point amount doesn’t change BUT MF and other fees do and always on the upside. So, in essence, they just jaci up the fees to compensate and leave the point amount alone.




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## SteelerGal (Feb 3, 2020)

I hope your friends decided not to go forward.  We are a family of 7 and just can’t afford to spend retail pricing for one vacation.  W/ resale, we now can take 4-5 trips for the cost of 1.  Plus in really nice TS.


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## LannyPC (Feb 3, 2020)

Braindead said:


> Do a poll on how many have purchased from Wyndham after knowing the resale value.



I didn't purchase retail from Wyndham, rather another company.  That being said, one of the selling points that the sales weasel convinced us of is that we could easily turn around and sell it for about the same price we paid.  We had no idea that, after the rescission period ended, the value would be around zero.


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## LannyPC (Feb 3, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> The key here is to read the contract before signing. If the salesperson tells you anything, it must be in the contract. Take your time reading each page regardless of how much pressure they give you to just sign and move on. IMO, if most folks did that, they would most likely push the paperwork back, grab their trinket and walk out the door.



True enough, but the reason people usually sign on the dotted line is not because it looks like a good deal.  They sign because they have been there for hours on end, are mentally worn down, and just want to get out of there.  They can't "grab their trinket and walk out the door" until the sales people sign off for it and the sales people won't do it until the buyers sign on the dotted line.

After dealing with sales people for hours, the last thing buyers are going to do is take time to read a 20-page contract.


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## dgalati (Feb 3, 2020)

SteelerGal said:


> I hope your friends decided not to go forward.  We are a family of 7 and just can’t afford to spend retail pricing for one vacation.  W/ resale, we now can take 4-5 trips for the cost of 1.  Plus in really nice TS.


You can also rent for less then paying maintenance fees in the 60 day booking window if your vacation plans are flexible.


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## SteelerGal (Feb 3, 2020)

dgalati said:


> You can also rent for less then paying maintenance fees in the 60 day booking window if your vacation plans are flexible.


Yes, that’s how we started.  Then we found out about RedWeek.


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## OutSkiing (Feb 3, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> I have heard resale owners claim that they're supporting Wyndham from collapsing by taking over MF dues. And that developer purchases don't really do anything for an existing resort which has sold all of its UDI. A resort is self-sustaining as long as its MFs are paid to sustain it. It's an irrefutable argument.



After all of a resort is sold out, there is still attrition.  I believe if the developer did not step in and do aggressive marketing,  over time the HOA could be stuck with un-owned units and they may have to increase maintenance fees for the remaining owners.  Take a read of what happened to Carriage Hill (re-posted today on this site here).  

As for where the money goes when 'used' contracts are re-sold at retail I do believe the majority goes to the Wyndham sales organization. It's a pretty big operation. Imagine setting up to sell a small resort of say 100 units when it is first developed. Each unit has to be sold 52 times adding up to 5200 sales! We're used to paying 6% commission on home sales but if my home had to be sold 52 times before it was really off my hands I'm sure the commission would be sky high.  Somehow that rate has carried over to the re-marketed units. You could make the case that re-marketed units should cost less.

Bob


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## Manedg (Oct 2, 2020)

Timesharehater123! said:


> So, i have a weeks timeshare with Silverleaf Resorts.  What is the best way to get rid of it?  my monthly fees are 107.00 per month.


Sorry if this is off topic, but I just got rid of my Silverleaf. I've paid it off , called their deeding department and told them they can have it back, They sent me a warranty deed, notarized it and sent it back. I am a free man now, yay.


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## pedro47 (Oct 2, 2020)

Manedg said:


> Sorry if this is off topic, but I just got rid of my Silverleaf. I've paid it off , called their deeding department and told them they can have it back, They sent me a warranty deed, notarized it and sent it back. I am a free man now, yay.


Your post is not off topic. Maybe, another owner at Silverleaf, can follow your suggestions. The key was your TS was paid off. IMHO.


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## dgalati (Oct 2, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> Your post is not off topic. Maybe, another owner at Silverleaf, can follow your suggestions. The key was your TS was paid off. IMHO.


@Grammarhero  Would this OP have been better off walking away and defaulting then paying off before giving back? @SNA27  I do miss his point of view.


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## Grammarhero (Oct 2, 2020)

dgalati said:


> @Grammarhero  Would this OP have been better off walking away and defaulting then paying off before giving back? @SNA27  I do miss his point of view.


Depends on how much he needs his high credit score and how low the TS loan balance.  If he is planning a large purchase or refi, he may have needed to pay back.


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## chaomandy (Oct 18, 2020)

Braindead said:


> A word of caution on free Wyndham timeshares & timesharenation.com
> Free is not always the best deals. Often free contracts have high MFs & may not be taken back by Ovations if you want out in a few years.
> If you pay $6 per 1k points to purchase a contract at a low MF resort with MFs of $3 per 1k less than a free contract, that contract pays for itself in 2 years. Also it will likely still have value in a few years or will be eligible for Ovations. Attached is an example of what can happen with a free or for little cost contract.
> It can turn into a pay me now or pay me later proposition.
> View attachment 16747


I apologize for my ignorance.  What do you do if the contract is not eligible for Ovations?  What are some resorts that have low MF?


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## Jan M. (Oct 18, 2020)

chaomandy said:


> I apologize for my ignorance.  What do you do if the contract is not eligible for Ovations?  What are some resorts that have low MF?



Even if it is eligible for Ovations some people would rather give what they have away than let Wyndham have it back for nothing. Sometimes they will ask the person to pay or split the $299 Wyndham transfer fee and the approximately $250 closing fee. Many of us use LT Transfers to do our closings. Take a look here on TUG in this forum.
*Buying, Selling & Renting Timeshares*

Free Timeshare Giveaways and Bargain Deals
Also look on the TUG Marketplace and on eBay.

For the resorts with the lowest maintenance fees you're not likely to find someone giving them away or even find them cheap as they go for a higher price. I typically recommend Grand Desert for people getting started acquiring points because although it doesn't have the lowest maintenance fees it does have lower end of average maintenance fees and you can usually find points at a decent price. Buildings 1 and 2 have slightly lower maintenance fees than building 3.

At the top of the Wyndham page you will see *Sticky - WYNDHAM INFORMATION and ADVICE ARTICLES*  in pink. Open it up and in the first post and you will see a link to the most recent directory, *2018-2019 Club Wyndham Plus Member's Directory.*  In the directory you will find the point charts for the various resorts.  Figure out where and when you want to go and how many points you will want/need before you start buying. Most people seriously underestimate how many points they will want/need. Most of us have been there, done that, lol! You will spend less in the long run if you buy more points right from the start.

HDiaz1 posted this attached spreadsheet in the 2020 maintenance fee sticky on 4/15/2020.


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## dgalati (Oct 18, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> From reviewing a few of them on the list, the MFs are the same amount as every other owner. There may be exceptions but I couldn’t find any.
> 
> Ovations? Well, if you think paying 20 k and up for a contract is worth that versus free, I suppose you can. Most timeshares lose 90 percent value plus right away. Free means zero percent loss. You can always give away your free timeshare too versus losing 20 k plus.
> 
> ...


I can only say some can justify the end to meet the means. I can tell you from past experience free deeds are available at National Harbor and Canterbury. Be Patience for the right deal to come along and you will be rewarded. Free deals on lower cost maintenance fee deeds are offered every day of the week. I picked up a 20k Worldmark $650 all in with 37k points available today. I also recieved a free 5K Worldmark from Timeshare nation.


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