# Deed Transfered with more points then available



## dgalati (Aug 18, 2017)

A 154000 annual point deed I sold finally transferred today. Instead of transferring the available 127,500 points, Wyndham transferred 154,000 points from my account total. New policy I have been told if you transfer a deed and have a ownership letter showing there is less points available they will disregard and transfer all points to new owner. This will lower your total balance of points under your membership number. I had this same situation play out last month with a different out come, 189000 point deed with only 122,000 points available, all 189,000 points transferred to new owner. Thankfully the 77,000 points were returned to my account from new buyers account. This is no longer a option I have been told?
So they are treating all points as a bucket. If you sell a deed and have points available in the bucket  points will transfer to a new owner even if your ownership summary letter show a balance of 0 for that deed. Points to be taken from other deeds with points available or existing reservations will be canceled!


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## dgalati (Aug 18, 2017)

3 plus hours on the phone speaking with title services and owner care. How do they transfer more points then the estoppel letter says are available. If you account doesn't have enough points existing reservations will be canceled to transfer points to new owner. SMH


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## ronparise (Aug 18, 2017)

You havent  given us all the facts

There are actually 472000 points to consider At this point in time there shouldn't be any 2019 points used so all of them ought to transfer but it's possible that all the 2018 points are in reservations and it's possible that all the 2017 points have been used

So in your case, what was  transferred?
And what did the estoppel say


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## spackler (Aug 18, 2017)

I may be going thru the same situation.

Were the 154,000 points taken from both 2017 and 2018?  Or just 2018?

I have a deed being transferred out with 0 available 2017 points - as was agreed to in our purchase agreement.  If they cancel my fall '17 reservations to be able to transfer points from me to the buyer I'm completely screwed.


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## dgalati (Aug 18, 2017)

2017 points only 127,5000 were available. Points that transferred 2017 154,000, 2018 154,0000 2019 154,000, All years transferred 154,000 points. Only 127,500 were available on this certain deed  for 2017 I have estoppel letter dated 8/16/2017 that verifies this to be correct. Estoppel actually states the following: Please note that due to the transfer of points related to this contract # all pending reservations on the sellers account are subject to cancelation upon completion of the transfer process


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## dgalati (Aug 18, 2017)

I had one transfer last month 189,000 point deed with only 122,000 available. They transferred 189,000 but were able to return 77,000 back to my account from the new owners. My question is how many owners have had points vanish from their accounts because of the new system. I spent hours on the phone earlier when they adjusted the dates of use years before new system was implemented.


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## spackler (Aug 18, 2017)

Did you have any pending reservations in 2017 that were left intact?  At this point that's my main concern.


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## bnoble (Aug 18, 2017)

This could be a side effect of the following new policy (from the most recent supplement):

"As a CLUB WYNDHAM Plus member, you receive specific benefits that are associated with your contract and membership type. Your points allow you to use your benefits, regardless of which contract they came from, and with our upcoming enhancements you will no longer have to worry about different point types and their eligibility."

So, there is no sense in which "Contract X" only has "Y of Z points remaining" in the new system. Contract X is entitled to Z points, and if you sell Contract X, Z points go with it, presuming you have at least Z points left. I have no idea what happens if you have fewer than Z points in that UY...


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## ronparise (Aug 18, 2017)

I get the new policy although I think the current year points ought to be prorated i.e. if the transfer was completed July 1 50% should stay in the sellers account

But I don't like it. I think the details should be agreed upon between buyer and seller and Wyndham should just make what's in the sales agreement happen

Now that I know what's going to happen I know what to do


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## ilya (Aug 18, 2017)

dgalati said:


> A 154000 annual point deed I sold finally transferred today. Instead of transferring the available 127,500 points, Wyndham transferred 154,000 points from my account total. New policy I have been told if you transfer a deed and have a ownership letter showing there is less points available they will disregard and transfer all points to new owner. This will lower your total balance of points under your membership number. I had this same situation play out last month with a different out come, 189000 point deed with only 122,000 points available, all 189,000 points transferred to new owner. Thankfully the 77,000 points were returned to my account from new buyers account. This is no longer a option I have been told?
> So they are treating all points as a bucket. If you sell a deed and have points available in the bucket  points will transfer to a new owner even if your ownership summary letter show a balance of 0 for that deed. Points to be taken from other deeds with points available or existing reservations will be canceled!




how long did it take for the transfer?


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## foundyoubyaccident (Aug 18, 2017)

WOW, someone was just  complaining they received a stripped contract.  I wonder if it is just hit or miss with Wyndham, seriously.  I have bought and received zero points when I should have had all, and then had some when it was and off year.  It really depends on if they want to do their job correctly the first time.


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## Braindead (Aug 18, 2017)

foundyoubyaccident said:


> WOW, someone was just  complaining they received a stripped contract.  I wonder if it is just hit or miss with Wyndham, seriously.  I have bought and received zero points when I should have had all, and then had some when it was and off year.  It really depends on if they want to do their job correctly the first time.


Nobody was complaining about a stripped contract. There's a listing on eBay that the seller states their not sure how many 2018 and 2019 points will transfer to the new buyer. They only guarantee that all 2020 points transfer


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## ronparise (Aug 18, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Nobody was complaining about a stripped contract. There's a listing on eBay that the seller states their not sure how many 2018 and 2019 points will transfer to the new buyer. They only guarantee that all 2020 points transfer


given the ops experience, that might be a good deal


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## nicemann (Aug 18, 2017)

Wow if they start cancelling reservations to transfer full points to the new owner that will be really interesting.  Guess we need to get more data points on it.


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## Braindead (Aug 18, 2017)

ronparise said:


> given the ops experience, that might be a good deal


Is Mr. Fumisuke advising a client to make an offer ? Seller claims to have several other contracts to possibly get points from.


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## dgalati (Aug 20, 2017)

Confirmed this with Wyndham to be new policy. If your account has points available and if a deed you sell has o points available for use in 2017 they will transfer the deed to new owner and deduct points from your account to transfer the deed with all points. Even if the Estoppel clearly states 0 for use in 2017. If you have no points available for use in your account Wyndham will cancel any and all existing reservations and transfer points from the canceled reservations to new owner. Request a Estoppel letter and it states it very clearly about canceling existing reservations. (Please note that due to the transfer of points related to this contract # all pending reservations on the sellers account are subject to cancelation upon completion of the transfer process.) The new clause was added this month August, was not in the estoppel letter I received in July. Here is a situation you have 2 deeded contracts  both with 154,000 annual points each. 1 has 0 points available for use the 2nd has all points available for use. You sell both but the one with 0 points transfers 1st. Very possible the contract with 0 points available transfers with all points and the 2nd contract with all points available transfers with 0.


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## dgalati (Aug 20, 2017)

nicemann said:


> Wow if they start cancelling reservations to transfer full points to the new owner that will be really interesting.  Guess we need to get more data points on it.


Request a estoppel letter and it states it very clear as of this month it reads as follows:
Please note that due to the transfer of points related to this contract # all pending reservations on the sellers account are subject to cancelation upon completion of the transfer process


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## dgalati (Aug 20, 2017)

ilya said:


> how long did it take for the transfer?


15 weeks from the date Wyndham received recorded deed and the $299 resort transfer fee.


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## dgalati (Aug 20, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I get the new policy although I think the current year points ought to be prorated i.e. if the transfer was completed July 1 50% should stay in the sellers account
> 
> But I don't like it. I think the details should be agreed upon between buyer and seller and Wyndham should just make what's in the sales agreement happen
> 
> Now that I know what's going to happen I know what to do


 Easy to change strategy going forward but I have 2 more contracts ready to transfer without all points available for use. Also have reservations that will be canceled to transfer all points to new buyers. Just thankful they were only 105,000 point deeds one with 0 points the other with 81,500 points available. Both deeds in Wyndham system waiting to transfer for 14 weeks now.


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## bnoble (Aug 20, 2017)

dgalati said:


> if a deed you sell has o points available for use in 2017


The point is: points are no longer associated with deeds, as of the new web site/directory supplement.


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## dgalati (Aug 20, 2017)

bnoble said:


> The point is: points are no longer associated with deeds, as of the new web site/directory supplement.


Point is taken, no pun intended.


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## kaljor (Aug 20, 2017)

So then when buying a contract an estoppel is worthless except for confirming the Maintenance fee.  It would also show a loan balance I guess, but I figure Wyndham wouldn't transfer a contract if it wasn't fully paid for, would they?


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## spackler (Aug 20, 2017)

This is an absurd policy, especially if transfers happen at the end of a use year.  

So basically, Wyndham doesn't care about the details of a purchase agreement nor their own estoppel?  How can this even be legal?


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## vacationhopeful (Aug 20, 2017)

Wyndham should ALSO refund all UDI points' MFs that the original owner paid for up to the date of transfer. Buyer gets points ... Buyer reimburses for the up to date MFs paid by older.

And for CONVERTED FIXED WEEK contracts, the 2017 MF of those points got paid in 2016. The MFs collected during 2017 should be reimbursed by Wyndham, as those are for the 2018 points.

"LAWYER" might be the right word ... CLASS ACTION would be nicer words.... double money for Converted Fixed Week owner; points paid during the use year ... a ratio paid for by owner who sold.


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## cayman01 (Aug 20, 2017)

And what happens if you used all your points for this year and then sell with a zero point balance? For example, say I used a 308k Bali Hai contract to go to Hawaii in January and then sell the contract in March?


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## Braindead (Aug 20, 2017)

This is beyond nuts and absurd. With that said.
It definitely passed Wyndhams legal team though. Guess Wyndham will claim the seller was notified with the terms in the estoppel.
Wyndham isn't going to have legal go through all resale sales agreements and make a legal determination on points and MFs.
If they did Wyndham will charge $1,000.00 to transfer instead of the current $299.00 and take twice as long
These point systems are great for flexibility. But I do understand they can be a pain for Wyndham or any point system to transfer


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## bnoble (Aug 21, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> And what happens if you used all your points for this year and then sell with a zero point balance? For example, say I used a 308k Bali Hai contract to go to Hawaii in January and then sell the contract in March?


I don't think anyone knows the answer to this yet.


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## Braindead (Aug 21, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> And what happens if you used all your points for this year and then sell with a zero point balance? For example, say I used a 308k Bali Hai contract to go to Hawaii in January and then sell the contract in March?


Sell in March. The transfer wouldn't happen till July or August at the earliest.
Knowing Wyndham they might hold off completing the transfer till January 1


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## Wolf&Sprite (Aug 21, 2017)

This might make turning a contract over to Ovations more appealing than selling it on the resale market.  What a happy "unintended" consequence for Wyndham.


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## Cyrus24 (Aug 21, 2017)

bnoble said:


> I don't think anyone knows the answer to this yet.


Caveat Venditor.  Seller Beware given the new rules!!!  The awful thing about this is that sales were in progress when this rule change kicked in.  Short term Chaos.  Sellers will account for this rule going forward.


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## cayman01 (Aug 21, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Sell in March. The transfer wouldn't happen till July or August at the earliest.
> Knowing Wyndham they might hold off completing the transfer till January 1



You misunderstood me I think. What happens if you already used all the points for a contract? I go to Hawaii in January then sell contract in March. And I have no other 
Points available. Does Wyndham cancel the sale? Could they?


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## Braindead (Aug 21, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> You misunderstood me I think. What happens if you already used all the points for a contract? I go to Hawaii in January then sell contract in March. And I have no other
> Points available. Does Wyndham cancel the sale? Could they?


I gotcha the first time. Funny you misunderstood me.
In January 2018 you used all of your 308,000 points going to Hawaii
In March you sell the contract. You have no points or reservations to cancel. I got that.
In July or August 2018 at the earliest Wyndham goes to transfer your contract to the new owner and realizes you have no points and no reservations to get points from.

That's when I meant knowing Wyndham they might just sit on the transfer to the new owner till January 2019

I've bought resale and be short points or MFs not prepaid like the purchase agreement stated when Wyndham completes the transfer.
Wyndham always gets stuck in the middle in the aftermath. Like it or not I can understand why Wyndham made this change.


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## foundyoubyaccident (Aug 21, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> Wyndham should ALSO refund all UDI points' MFs that the original owner paid for up to the date of transfer. Buyer gets points ... Buyer reimburses for the up to date MFs paid by older.
> 
> And for CONVERTED FIXED WEEK contracts, the 2017 MF of those points got paid in 2016. The MFs collected during 2017 should be reimbursed by Wyndham, as those are for the 2018 points.
> 
> "LAWYER" might be the right word ... CLASS ACTION would be nicer words.... double money for Converted Fixed Week owner; points paid during the use year ... a ratio paid for by owner who sold.



I am completely confused by this can you explain it better to me, converted fixed week contracts mf's are paid the year before they are actually due?  OR am I getting this correct?


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## Avislo (Aug 21, 2017)

People may be jumping the gun on this issue.  People that have more points transfer to a new owner than the estoppel letter indicates that do not include reservations made on the contract in question may want to give Title/Owner Care a call.  If points were not used after the date of the estoppel letter, they may be in for a pleasant surprise after their account/contract goes through a verification process.


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## Braindead (Aug 21, 2017)

foundyoubyaccident said:


> I am completely confused by this can you explain it better to me, converted fixed week contracts mf's are paid the year before they are actually due?  OR am I getting this correct?


On converted fixed weeks.
The $.57 per thousand points program fee is paid and kept current month to month. But yes you are paying the 2018 MFs on your deeded week in 2017.


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## dgalati (Aug 31, 2017)

Braindead said:


> I gotcha the first time. Funny you misunderstood me.
> In January 2018 you used all of your 308,000 points going to Hawaii
> In March you sell the contract. You have no points or reservations to cancel. I got that.
> In July or August 2018 at the earliest Wyndham goes to transfer your contract to the new owner and realizes you have no points and no reservations to get points from.
> ...


Another 105,000 annual point deed transferred today. No current reservations (I had to cancel existing reservation and deposit points to RCI not to lose points). After transfer of contract account showing -104,750. Looks like Wyndham transferred all 105,000 points when account only had 250 available for 2017. Not sure if this will carry over to next year or not. Wyndham new improved system still has many issues that need to be resolved.


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## Braindead (Aug 31, 2017)

dgalati said:


> Another 105,000 annual point deed transferred today. No current reservations (I had to cancel existing reservation and deposit points to RCI not to lose points). After transfer of contract account showing -104,750. Looks like Wyndham transferred all 105,000 points when account only had 250 available for 2017. Not sure if this will carry over to next year or not. Wyndham new improved system still has many issues that need to be resolved.


If your 2017 point bucket is allowed to expire at year end with a -104,740 point balance with no offset to 2018.
Welcome to CHAOS !!
This would help to explain the change in losing the credit pool and replacing with the point deposit feature. No longer allowing future years points being used now.
If Wyndham is going to start loading contracts with points that are not available from the seller they just opened the door to one of the biggest loopholes ever.

What will stop owners trading contracts back and forth in the last 6 months every year.


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## bizaro86 (Aug 31, 2017)

The fact that Wyndham already takes 3-4 months to transfer. If people start trying to game the system, it will take longer due to demand,  and 6 month transfers will close the loophole.


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## dgalati (Aug 31, 2017)

Braindead said:


> If your 2017 point bucket is allowed to expire at year end with a -104,740 point balance with no offset to 2018.
> Welcome to CHAOS !!
> This would help to explain the change in losing the credit pool and replacing with the point deposit feature. No longer allowing future years points being used now.
> If Wyndham is going to start loading contracts with points that are not available from the seller they just opened the door to one of the biggest loopholes ever.
> ...


 Moving forward the strategy changes.


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## spackler (Aug 31, 2017)

Yeah, I have negative housekeeping credits in one of my use years for some reason.  I have no idea why.


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## wjappraise (Aug 31, 2017)

Braindead said:


> If your 2017 point bucket is allowed to expire at year end with a -104,740 point balance with no offset to 2018.
> Welcome to CHAOS !!
> This would help to explain the change in losing the credit pool and replacing with the point deposit feature. No longer allowing future years points being used now.
> If Wyndham is going to start loading contracts with points that are not available from the seller they just opened the door to one of the biggest loopholes ever.
> ...



Excellent observation.   That's the case with my account.  Still show -4,000,000 points current use year.   But I can still make reservations.  Just not PR ones.  What a mess!  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dgalati (Aug 31, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> Excellent observation.   That's the case with my account.  Still show -4,000,000 points current use year.   But I can still make reservations.  Just not PR ones.  What a mess!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 What a mess is putting it nicely!


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## Braindead (Aug 31, 2017)

If the loaded points are not elegible for the points deposit or being transferred to RCI would close the loophole somewhat.
I hope this doesn't get exploited and abused.

I want to hear 55plus response on how Wyndham is screwing the buyers on this one!!


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## steve_solo (Aug 31, 2017)

I purchased an UDI EOYO contract for 168,000 points in Nov 2016. Only cost was the Wyndham fee. The transfer company (Midwest) had to jump thru hoops with Wyndham to get the deed/title straight so that Wyndham would accept it. Wyndham accepted in in June 2017 but I still don't have the points in my account.
According to what I see in this thread, I may have 2017 points (odd year) when this thing finally transfers. 
Does this mean the previous owner has paid maintenance fees for almost a year now with no use of points?
Why wouldn't anyone simply give their points back thru Ovation?
These were for Smokies so I assume Wyndham would have accepted them.


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## Roger830 (Aug 31, 2017)

steve_solo said:


> I purchased an UDI EOYO contract for 168,000 points in Nov 2016.
> Does this mean the previous owner has paid maintenance fees for almost a year now with no use of points?
> Why wouldn't anyone simply give their points back thru Ovation?
> .



I bought two eoy contracts with 11 and 12 months prepaid, that's a good advantange with those contracts.
I was able to credit pool one and booked a week 53 in south FL last year with the other.

I would think that some members aren't aware of ovation.


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## ronparise (Aug 31, 2017)

There are a mot of Wyndham timeshares that it the secondary market as "trade ins" 

A Wyndham owner visits another timeshare companies resort and the salesman convinces them to buy their product and to make the deal happen they agree to take the Wyndham off their hands as a "trade in"   They don't actually take it but they areange for a timeshare liquidation company to handle it

I'm not saying that that's what happened here or that that's Mid Wests business.  But it could be

The point is that there a lot of reasons why a timeshare shows up on the secondary market


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## wjappraise (Sep 1, 2017)

Braindead said:


> If the loaded points are not elegible for the points deposit or being transferred to RCI would close the loophole somewhat.
> I hope this doesn't get exploited and abused.
> 
> I want to hear 55plus response on how Wyndham is screwing the buyers on this one!!



They are screwing the sellers.  Either way it's an owner that's getting hosed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MaryBella7 (Sep 1, 2017)

If transfers take place in the last half of the year, they should not move points over that are not already anticipated or actually in that account IMO. I think it is reasonable for a buyer to anticipate not having points available that year as you get closer to the end of the year, and they actually may be harder to use anyway depending on location and occupation as far as getting time off.

  It is also a benefit to have the contract transferred in time to make some prime 10 month reservations. If sellers have to try to time sales to make sure the transfer doesn't happen until the new year, buyers will lose that jump on 10 month summer reservations and may end up with the leavings, or will have to do constant inventory searches hoping what they want comes available. 

Transfers at the end of the year with no points aren't really stripped contracts in the way the credit pool allowed to happen. We are talking a few months of perhaps trying to get last minute trips at best. And then losing ability to book ahead.


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## spackler (Sep 1, 2017)

I've been worried about a pending sale in my account & the possibility of Wyndham cancelling reservations as I'm well short of points to transfer.  (The buyer & I long ago agreed he would not be entitled to any 2017 points).  Wyndham received the recorded deed back in June.

I've called title services & they couldn't help me in terms of knowing *which* (if any) reservations might get cancelled; it sounds like a computer does it & you just wake up to surprise cancellations one day.  Title services referred me to Owner Care; but Owner Care referred me back to Title Services.

After telling them about a dozen times that surprise cancellations are simply not acceptable they agreed to delay the transfer for a couple months until the reservations are over.  I'll have to pay a few more months of MFs on that deed but that was a far better option than the alternative that WYN is imposing.

No word on if I'll have "negative" 2017 points after it's all said & done.


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## spackler (Nov 8, 2017)

spackler said:


> No word on if I'll have "negative" 2017 points after it's all said & done.



Well, transferred just happened & yes, I now have a large negative point balance for 2017.


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## Baby Jane (Nov 8, 2017)

dgalati said:


> Confirmed this with Wyndham to be new policy. If your account has points available and if a deed you sell has o points available for use in 2017 they will transfer the deed to new owner and deduct points from your account to transfer the deed with all points. Even if the Estoppel clearly states 0 for use in 2017. If you have no points available for use in your account Wyndham will cancel any and all existing reservations and transfer points from the canceled reservations to new owner. Request a Estoppel letter and it states it very clearly about canceling existing reservations. (Please note that due to the transfer of points related to this contract # all pending reservations on the sellers account are subject to cancelation upon completion of the transfer process.) The new clause was added this month August, was not in the estoppel letter I received in July. Here is a situation you have 2 deeded contracts  both with 154,000 annual points each. 1 has 0 points available for use the 2nd has all points available for use. You sell both but the one with 0 points transfers 1st. Very possible the contract with 0 points available transfers with all points and the 2nd contract with all points available transfers with 0.


That is funny (sarcasm) because everytime we upgraded with Wyndham even if we bought in July the new points were not available until the following use year


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## md8287 (Nov 8, 2017)

Just to add confusion to the situation, I just took on two contracts and both came short of 2017 points (were supposed to be fully loaded).  After working through with sellers and Wyndham (hours on the phone) an adjustment was made. Seems on the seller's point screen it showed all points leaving the account but on buyer's screen not all came over.
I wouldn't assume anything is systematic.


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## puppymommo (Nov 8, 2017)

md8287 said:


> I wouldn't assume anything is systematic.



I think this is one of Wyndham's biggest problems. There seems to be a total lack of consistency when applying rules/policies. The answer all depends on who you're talking to.


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## dgalati (Nov 9, 2017)

Points are missing on every transaction. I have spent hours on the phone having points adjusted to the correct amount. I wonder how many owners don't make the call and have been short changed on points?


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## spackler (Nov 9, 2017)

I was told the negative points will just disappear after 12/31 & not have any impact on 2018 points, but I don't believe that for a second.


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## dgalati (Nov 10, 2017)

Wyndham corrected the negative point balance for me. I had other contracts transferring in to my account before year end and didn't want the negative balance wiping out points coming in.


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