# Water Softer: Is it necessary?



## LisaH (Oct 20, 2007)

We are at the piping stage for our new house and our contractor just asked us at the last minute if we would like to install a salt based water softer system. I did a quick search and results are quite mixed. Does any of you have such system installed? How do you feel about it? Or is there someone who looked into it and came out against installing such system? FYI, I live in Cupertino in the Bay area. I have not had much experience with hard water, but a friend of mine living in neighboring San Jose installed one after moving there because he noticed a ring forming around the cup after the tap water sitting on the table for a few hours.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 20, 2007)

you might want to review this thread.


----------



## "Roger" (Oct 20, 2007)

The place to start is to have your water tested for hardness.  (If your new house is to have city water and it isn't hooked up yet, see if you can get a sample from a neighbor.)  

In my area, the answer would be yes.  Without it, I would be going through hot water heaters, coffee makers, etc. like crazy.  On top of that, detergent would not be as effective.

If you do have the piping installed, I like the idea of having the cold water kitchen faucet not hooked up to the softner.  You can then drink that water without concern for residue sodium.


----------



## geekette (Oct 20, 2007)

We're on a well and have a Kinetico system that includes a drinking water filter - we have very good drinking water that way and that's what a I cook with, where the ice maker goes thru, etc.  

It didn't take long for me to get used to the softer water and using less of everything in the kitchen and bath.  We replaced the aging system that had not prevented staining.

I would not pop for it if I didn't need it, tho.  Hauling the salt down the basement stairs kinda sucks.  Mom, mid-70s with Lupus, has trouble refilling hers because of the heavy bags.


----------



## LUVourMarriotts (Oct 20, 2007)

I agree that a water test is needed to answer this question.  When we moved into our house, we noticed a green-blue tint around our bathtubs, toilets, sinks.  We had a few companies come in to see what we should do to remedy.  2 places said we needed water softeners, without doing a test.  We then heard about a place that our friends used, so we called them in.  We paid for a full water test ($75).  The results proved that we didn't need a water test, but we needed a different device (scuba tank looking thing) that takes the acidity out of the water.  The company also noticed slight sediment in our lines, so we added a "whole house filter".

End result, everything is great.

PS - you can buy a simple pool pH tester for an initial test too.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 20, 2007)

Don't know where in the Bay Area you are, but the hardness of the water varies widely.

Your best option is to contact your local water utility.  They will know what the hardness is in your area, and they can also tell you if it changes seasonally.  (Some areas are supplied by wells in the winter and from surface water in the summer.  That's especially the case in the Santa Clara Valley and the San Mateo County cities along Hwy 101. If your water comes from EBMUD, a water softener is a complete waste of money.

If you're connected to a city sewer system you should also find out if they will let you discharge the regeneration brine into the sewer system.  Some of them won't.


----------



## LisaH (Oct 20, 2007)

*Thanks Everyone!*

I took a water sample to Sears and it turns out our water hardness is medium level (7-8), not too bad. Therefore, we are now thinking about just to soften the hot water which will save us extra piping cost. If we have separate pipes for kitchen and leave kitchen water unsoftened, the extra piping cost will be around $500. Would it be worth it? We have until Monday to make a decision.


----------



## gsturtz (Oct 21, 2007)

I would leave it on all the hot water.   You get the benefit of the WS for Hand and dish washing when you use hot water,  and don't get any added sodium for drinking and cooking.

Personally I'd go one step further with the cold water in the kitchen.   Having used ALL types of filter methods, I would install a reverse osmosis filter for drinking water.  It really does (IMO) produce the best tasting water.


My $.02, FWIW (2 cents?)


----------



## "Roger" (Oct 21, 2007)

I would vote for having the hot water softened in the kitchen.  You can use that water in your coffee maker, tea will not have a layer of crud on top, if you do any canning (probably not but if you do), you canner will not always have a layer of scaling, etc. etc.

Given the hardness of your water, just doing the hot water seems like a good compromise.  Where I live, the hardness is from 25 to 30.  A softner is a necessity.


----------



## Liz Wolf-Spada (Oct 21, 2007)

Definitely go for the reverse osmosis filter under the sink. We have had our system for years and love it and use that water for cooking and drinking. We did have a system for the whole house installed and it has really helped. We have been here 14 years and not had to replace our water heater and we have very hard water.
Liz


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 21, 2007)

LisaH said:


> I took a water sample to Sears and it turns out our water hardness is medium level (7-8), not too bad. Therefore, we are now thinking about just to soften the hot water which will save us extra piping cost. If we have separate pipes for kitchen and leave kitchen water unsoftened, the extra piping cost will be around $500. Would it be worth it? We have until Monday to make a decision.



Again, I strongly, strongly, strongly suggest that you contact your local water utility for information on hardness.

There are many parts of the Bay Area where the local water supply varies widely from year to year and from season to season.  If you live in one of those areas, taking a water sample from your tap and getting it tested is a very *unreliable* way of assessing the hardness of your water.

FWIW - I spent ten years as a water supply engineer for the California Health Department, and did a LOT of work with SF Bay Area water suppliers. Probably about half my work involved issues of interchangeability of surface water and groundwater supplies, and the impacts of those changes on water delivered to customer taps. I've also done a bit of work for San Francisco and water quality issues related to the Hetch Hetchy project and how the quality of Hetch Hetchy supplies affect suburban customers of Hetch Hetchy.


----------



## philemer (Oct 21, 2007)

Steve,
Other than your local water co. is there an inexpensive place to get a full analysis of your water? Like less than $50?

Phil


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 21, 2007)

philemer said:


> Steve,
> full analysis of your water?
> Phil


Full analysis????  what do you have in mind?/

Let's say you want a general mineral analysis, heavy metals, total and fecal coliform and standard plate count bacteriology, general pesticides, volatile organic, acid and base-neutral extractables, and full radiologic.  That's pretty comprehensive and my guess it would cost you about $3000.  That doesn't include viruses, spores (such as cryptosporidium), cysts (such as giardia), specialized pesticides, and quite few other exotic compounds.

So, to answer the question, full analysis for less than $50?  Nope.  Add two zeroes, though, and you're in the ballpark.


----------



## LisaH (Oct 21, 2007)

Steve, I'll call San Jose Water Co tomorrow and see what I can find out. Thanks!


----------



## easyrider (Oct 22, 2007)

The Health Dept tests water for bacteria. You can test your own water with a hot tub water quality test(ph balance) or take some to a spa dealer and maybe for a more professional opinion call Culligan. We use a reverse osmosis unit for our drinking water. It cost alot less for reverse osmosis than bottled water. If I were building a house today I would buy an on demand tankless water heater. Water sofeners are kind of an extra hassel unless you really need it.


----------



## Don (Oct 22, 2007)

If you decide to get a water softener, and sodium is a health concern, you can use potassium chloride instead.  It's not as reactive as salt so you have to set the softener up a higher levels of softness to compensate.  The instruction book should tell you how.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 22, 2007)

easysider said:


> The Health Dept tests water for bacteria. You can test your own water with a hot tub water quality test(ph balance) or take some to a spa dealer and maybe for a more professional opinion call Culligan. We use a reverse osmosis unit for our drinking water. It cost alot less for reverse osmosis than bottled water. If I were building a house today I would buy an on demand tankless water heater. Water sofeners are kind of an extra hassel unless you really need it.



Not quite.  In most cases the water utility itself tests water quality; the frequency depends on the size of the system.  In a system such as San Jose, it's likely that samples are collected from various parts of the water system on a daily basis.

Chemical tests are conducted less often - testing schedules can vary widely with the water system.  But I would expect that San Jose probably tests some wells annually, with a rotation set up ensuring that all wells are tested at least every three years for most mineral constituents.

More frequent testing may be scheduled in response to specific situations.  For example, if a well were near a groundwater contamination area, the well might have more frequent testing.

Water sampling by the Health Department itself is infrequent and in most cases is conducted solely as a spot check.


----------



## philemer (Oct 22, 2007)

OK, Steve, is there an inexpensive to get my water hardness checked besides the do-it-yourself strips or the Water Co.? I've heard of people sending samples away & then a testing facility does & sends back the results (for less than $100). Ideas anyone?


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 22, 2007)

philemer said:


> OK, Steve, is there an inexpensive to get my water hardness checked besides the do-it-yourself strips or the Water Co.? I've heard of people sending samples away & then a testing facility does & sends back the results (for less than $100). Ideas anyone?



Find a high school student who likes chemistry and see if the student is interested in trying to do a special project in chem class.  

It's pretty simple wet chemistry, but it would be a good exercise for a student to set read the procedure, collect the equpment and reagents, and do the test.

Or send a sample to a local analytical lab.  Water labs should be listed in the yellow pages or an on-line directory. Most labs that do soils analysis for growers should be able to do a hardness.


----------



## philemer (Oct 22, 2007)

Mahalo, Steve. Not sure if I know any HS students.  I am a senior citizen, BTW.


----------



## LisaH (Oct 22, 2007)

I called the water company today and was told water in our area comes from imported source with hardness ranging from 4-10 gram/gal. That sounds high (maybe she meant mg) but she said anything below 12 is good. We probably will still install a water softner system for hot water for the entire house. My contractor said this would not cost extra for pipe installation.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 23, 2007)

LisaH said:


> I called the water company today and was told water in our area comes from imported source with hardness ranging from 4-10 gram/gal. That sounds high (maybe she meant mg) but she said anything below 12 is good. We probably will still install a water softner system for hot water for the entire house. My contractor said this would not cost extra for pipe installation.



That would be 4-10 grains per gallon. That classifies as soft to moderately hard.  It's in the range where I personally would probably not soften at all, and I certainly would not soften the whole house.

Since they say you're on an imported source, I surmise that the area you are in is served from the South Bay Aqueduct, which is part of the California Aqueduct. That hardness level is about what I would expect from the San Joaquin Delta water supplies.    If that's the case, your water is being taken from the San Joaquin delta at the Tracy Pumping Station.  Then it's being pumped again through a tunnel in the mountains west of I-5 for delivery into the southern Alameda County and northern Santa Clara County via Lake Del Valle.


----------



## LisaH (Oct 23, 2007)

Steve,

I really appreciate your expertly opinion! That's exactly what I hope to find on this website!


----------



## Don (Oct 23, 2007)

For about $10 or less you can buy a water hardness test kit from a pet store.  Mine was made by Aguarium Pharmaceuticals Inc. and is good for 75 tests.  Your results will be in parts per million (ppm), but the instructions tell you  how to convert to grains (ppm X .058).


----------



## Patri (Oct 23, 2007)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> If that's the case, your water is being taken from the San Joaquin delta at the Tracy Pumping Station.  Then it's being pumped again through a tunnel in the mountains west of I-5 for delivery into the southern Alameda County and northern Santa Clara County via Lake Del Valle.



All so that you can turn on your tap and take a drink. Aren't engineers nice?


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 23, 2007)

Patri said:


> All so that you can turn on your tap and take a drink. Aren't engineers nice?



So kiss an engineer today.


----------

