# Craigendarroch Lodges Purchase



## Lampshade (Aug 23, 2022)

Hi everyone,

I've been reading the posts on this message board for the last couple months and really appreciate all the great information available.  My wife and I have learned quite a bit about the HGVC program and, using information from all of you, have decided to make a purchase at Craigendarroch Lodges in Scotland through the official HGVC resale office there.

Before we complete the purchase (we're on day 19 of our 21 day "cooling off" period), I figured it would be worthwhile to have you look at our purchase to QA it.  I also figured this information would be useful to anyone else looking to purchase through the Scotland property since most of the posts about Craigendarroch are at least a year old at this point.

We're purchasing 5x contracts in various weeks, all of them platinum season and worth 11,200 HGVC points each.  This is a total of 56,000 HGVC points which qualifies us for Elite Premier status.  I double-checked this with Andrew at the Lodges and he confirmed that Craigendarroch does still qualify towards Elite statuses but that they will not at some time in the future.  They still didn't know when that would happen, but all previous purchases would be grandfathered into the program.

The total purchase price for the five contracts is GBP 24,000 plus closing costs of GBP 195 per contract for a total of GBP 24,975.  At the current exchange rate, that works out to about $29,500 or about $0.53/point.

We additionally had to pay for the initial HGVC membership fee which is GBP 298, but they were able to waive GBP 293 fee that would normally be applied to each contract if adding to an existing membership.  We didn't have to pay this since we are new members (saved us about $1700).

Maintenance fees are GBP 730/year ($860) per contract for a total of about $4,300 (about $.08/point).

So, in summary:

5x 2 BR Platinum contracts (56,000 total Club Points)$28,320Closing costs (total for 5 contracts)$1,150Initial HGVC membership fee$350Maintenance Fees per contract$860

From what I've seen on some of the various timeshare resale sites, these contracts are pretty competitive with the overall resale market.  That's before you take into account they are direct sales from HGVC and count towards Elite status.  I asked about HGVMax and was told that, officially, Craigendarroch sales don't count towards that program.  However, Andrew said that other owners have received emails welcoming them to HGVMax and I also received a similar email after we put in our purchase order.  We'll see what happens with that (we have not paid anything extra towards HGVMax).

My wife and I have been DVC owners for several years now and are pretty familiar with the timeshare experience.  We're looking forward to the additional locations that HGVC will bring, particularly Las Vegas (where we're from) and Orlando (where we visit frequently, hence the DVC ownership).

So, thoughts on this pending purchase?  I'm also happy to answer any questions people have regarding the purchasing process at Craigendarroch.  It's very straightforward, I did everything over email.  If you're interested, their website and contact info is www.craigendarroch.com/sales

Thanks!


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## HuskerATL (Aug 23, 2022)

It looks like you jumped in with both feet..  Welcome to the group.

That is a bit more per contract than we paid through Andrew.  Ours were about $2k each but were 1 bedroom platinum except one 2 bedroom.  We paid about 12k GBP for 46,400 points so our cost  was 0.259/point (without fees, just purchase price) and yours is 0.429. We already had other HGV weeks so this put us at EP. That is great that they could waive the 293 GBP to add the points to HGVC. I would verify that.  You can buy and use weeks at Craig without being in HGV but to be in HGV, you have to pay the 293 GBP fee per contract.  Andrew and Donna are very good so they would know but this surprises me.

Now, the good part about your purchase is that your MFs are just a little more than ours but you have 9,600 more points.  

Make sure to pay with the Hilton Aspire Amex so that it will count for 14x HH and you will get the $250 resort credit.   If you don't have this card, get it.  You will get the nice chunk of bonus HH points with this purchase plus the 14x.  Also, if any of them have 2022 points, you will need to pay the 2022 MFs when you pay for the purchase price, otherwise, you won't pay until December/January for 2023 points.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 23, 2022)

Just to add, once you are past the cooling off period and pay Donna, it will be a week or two before the points show up...well, for me it was but I had an account.  It may take a bit longer for you since you are new and HGV will need to set up the account.  These are auto booked so you will need to go into your account and cancel the reservation if you want the points. Also, Craig has the option to rent out your week so you can reach out to them to do that as well, https://www.craigendarroch.com/rental/ but you need to do that before  you cancel your week and get the points.  You can also cancel the week up to two years out and book in 2023 with 2024 points.  We have cancelled all of our 2023 and 2024 weeks except the back to back weeks that we have in the same lodge in 2024 for a potential trip there.


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## MattnTricia (Aug 23, 2022)

Lampshade said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've been reading the posts on this message board for the last couple months and really appreciate all the great information available.  My wife and I have learned quite a bit about the HGVC program and, using information from all of you, have decided to make a purchase at Craigendarroch Lodges in Scotland through the official HGVC resale office there.
> 
> ...


Well Done!!!!


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## Nowaker (Aug 23, 2022)

Lampshade said:


> So, thoughts on this pending purchase?



It's all good today. Just be aware a currency conversion can fluctuate and make these deeds cost you more than mediocre US deeds.

For example, when 1 GBP cost 1.50 USD 6 years ago, it would be $1290 MF per 11,200 pts, or $0.115 MFpp, in line with cheap Vegas deeds (e.g. Blvd 2 BR Gold, Trump STP, Elara 1 BR Grand Gold, etc.)
And when 1 GBP cost 2 USD 13 years ago, it would be $1720 MF per 11,200 pts, or $0.154 MFpp in line with expensive Orlando/Hawaiian deeds (e.g. Kohala or Bay Club 2 BR Platinum).

For this reason, I would myself diversify between different deeds. E.g. half UK half US. However, you're also getting Elite, which you wouldn't get with US resales. So there's that additional benefit you'd be giving up for better diversification.

So here's a question you need to answer for yourself: if crap hits the fan, and 1 GBP is worth 2 USD, can your Elite level justify MFpp going from $0.076 to $0.154?

Personally, I'd say "yes". No reservation fees - assuming 4x $59 a year - is $236 saved. So that covers 1/3 of your sudden MF increase. Added to $250 in annual Lyft credit from/to HGVC/airports makes 2/3 of the MF increase recouped. Effectively, making your MFpp not $0.154 but $0.10, which is in line with good US deeds like Flamingo 2 BR, and little worse than the best US deeds like Blvd 2 BR Platinum.

I'd get these 5 UK deeds to reach the highest Elite tier, and then add US resales on top in the future if need be.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 23, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> It's all good today. Just be aware a currency conversion can fluctuate and make these deeds cost you more than mediocre US deeds.
> 
> For example, when 1 GBP cost 1.50 USD 6 years ago, it would be $1290 MF per 11,200 pts, or $0.115 MFpp, in line with cheap Vegas deeds (e.g. Blvd 2 BR Gold, Trump STP, Elara 1 BR Grand Gold, etc.)
> And when 1 GBP cost 2 USD 13 years ago, it would be $1720 MF per 11,200 pts, or $0.154 MFpp in line with expensive Orlando/Hawaiian deeds (e.g. Kohala or Bay Club 2 BR Platinum).
> ...


And no guest cert fees, 30% discount on OS, conversion to HH isn't terrible since the MFs are currently cheap because of the exchange rate, and potential for unit upgrades...I have gotten some...


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## Nowaker (Aug 23, 2022)

Yeah, these could be a factor for some folks too. Not for me though:



HuskerATL said:


> And no guest cert fees


I'd have no use for this one given my kids are too young.



HuskerATL said:


> 30% discount on OS


I'd have no use for this one given my low UK/LV MFpp. 



HuskerATL said:


> conversion to HH isn't terrible


I'd have no use for this one given my HH pts balance of 1.1M points after draining Amex signup bonuses on 2x Surpass (wife and I), 2x Regular, 1x Aspire, 1x Business. There's still one more Aspire to apply for and drain 150K HH SUB from. 



HuskerATL said:


> potential for unit upgrades


That's something I'd definitely welcome if it happens.  I can see it doable in off-season Vegas (which always has vacancy) - it's nice to be upgraded from no view to great view, or nice shower rather than a tub with a curtain (as a European living in the US, I can't fathom how these half-tubs and curtains are a thing here... gross).


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## Lampshade (Aug 23, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> It looks like you jumped in with both feet..  Welcome to the group.
> 
> That is a bit more per contract than we paid through Andrew.  Ours were about $2k each but were 1 bedroom platinum except one 2 bedroom.  We paid about 12k GBP for 46,400 points so our cost  was 0.259/point (without fees, just purchase price) and yours is 0.429. We already had other HGV weeks so this put us at EP. That is great that they could waive the 293 GBP to add the points to HGVC. I would verify that.  You can buy and use weeks at Craig without being in HGV but to be in HGV, you have to pay the 293 GBP fee per contract.  Andrew and Donna are very good so they would know but this surprises me.
> 
> ...



Yes, Andrew said that if we were already HGVC members that we’d have to pay that additional fee per contract, but that since we weren’t they could add all of the contracts to the HGVC membership at the time of our joining for only the new member fee.  Pretty convenient.

Did you pay the listed price for your contracts when purchasing from Craigendarroch?  It seemed they were already very reasonable so we did not do any haggling.  I suppose we could have saved a few hundred dollars if we had, but like you said, our MFpp rate is pretty good.

We definitely do have the Amex Aspire card and I’ve already talked to Donna about paying with it.  That should net us about 420,000 HHonors points for “free.”

All of the contracts we are purchasing are already past the use week for 2022 so we won’t be able to use any of the points until next year.  But like you mentioned, that also means we don’t owe any MFs this year.  I assume that we should be able to borrow next year’s points for use this year if we wanted to make a reservation?  We already have a couple DVC trips coming up so we may not have the time anyway.


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## Lampshade (Aug 23, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> Just to add, once you are past the cooling off period and pay Donna, it will be a week or two before the points show up...well, for me it was but I had an account.  It may take a bit longer for you since you are new and HGV will need to set up the account.  These are auto booked so you will need to go into your account and cancel the reservation if you want the points. Also, Craig has the option to rent out your week so you can reach out to them to do that as well, https://www.craigendarroch.com/rental/ but you need to do that before  you cancel your week and get the points.  You can also cancel the week up to two years out and book in 2023 with 2024 points.  We have cancelled all of our 2023 and 2024 weeks except the back to back weeks that we have in the same lodge in 2024 for a potential trip there.



Andrew did go over the requirement to cancel the pre-booked weeks in order to convert them to Club Points but I didn’t realize you could do that up to two years in advance.  That’s great to know since we don’t plan on visiting Scotland in the near future, although we probably will at some point.  Thanks!


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## HuskerATL (Aug 23, 2022)

We have already used 4 guest certs this year for friends, been upgraded 4 times this year, bought one open season which was a pretty good deal with the 30% off. We have not converted to HH but could with the low MFs, at the moment, and wouldn't be a bad deal with 5th day free Hiltons when using points...  This would be a good approach for Europe though.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 23, 2022)

Lampshade said:


> I assume that we should be able to borrow next year’s points for use this year if we wanted to make a reservation


Definitely start to do this if you need to travel. Try to be in a point deficit. I am booking 2023 stays with 2024 points right now.  Borrowing is free but saving/converting costs.



Lampshade said:


> Did you pay the listed price for your contracts when purchasing from Craigendarroch?


Yes, I didn't haggle but it seems like the prices have gone up since we bought.  Normally, it is the other way around...further into the year, people reduce the prices to dump them before MFs are due. Another person that I know did offer less and the owners took it so you can do that.  We didn't.  Some of ours were less than $2k so I was okay with the price.  I figure these are cheap enough that I can just give them away if we decide we no longer want them.



Lampshade said:


> Andrew said that if we were already HGVC members that we’d have to pay that additional fee per contract


This will save you a ton. I had the 293 fee x 6....

We also had some current year points so had to pay the MFs for those.  The full bill will come at the end of the year.


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## Lampshade (Aug 23, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> It's all good today. Just be aware a currency conversion can fluctuate and make these deeds cost you more than mediocre US deeds.
> 
> For example, when 1 GBP cost 1.50 USD 6 years ago, it would be $1290 MF per 11,200 pts, or $0.115 MFpp, in line with cheap Vegas deeds (e.g. Blvd 2 BR Gold, Trump STP, Elara 1 BR Grand Gold, etc.)
> And when 1 GBP cost 2 USD 13 years ago, it would be $1720 MF per 11,200 pts, or $0.154 MFpp in line with expensive Orlando/Hawaiian deeds (e.g. Kohala or Bay Club 2 BR Platinum).
> ...



This is a great point to anyone considering purchasing in Scotland.  I definitely looked at the historic GBP to USD rate and agree that it’s definitely a good rate now.  As you mentioned, even if it goes back up to what it was a few years ago, that will only bring it equal to Las Vegas MF rates with the benefit of getting the Elite Premier status.  I hadn‘t done the math for if it went all the way to 2:1 GPB:USD, but with all the issues with Brexit, I don’t see that happening anytime soon.  Fingers crossed.

A big reason we decided to get so many points from Craigendarroch was so we could take advantage of the Elite Premier benefits.  Mainly, I didn’t want to pay extra every time we wanted to use our points.  We are used to DVC and the idea of having to pay fees to make reservations, bank points, or convert points to HHonors points would probably make us less inclined to use them.  Also, I was concerned that we would eventually not be able to buy points from Craigendarroch that were Elite eligible which is why we bought enough to get to Elite Premier right away.  We could have bought fewer now and just added more later, but if future purchases were no longer Elite eligible, our only option would be to purchase direct which would definitely not be worth the extra cost for the Elite benefits.


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## Lampshade (Aug 23, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> And no guest cert fees, 30% discount on OS, conversion to HH isn't terrible since the MFs are currently cheap because of the exchange rate, and potential for unit upgrades...I have gotten some...



Could you elaborate on some of these?  I’ve read the HGVC club rules and looked at the Elite Premier benefits, but apparently am not familiar with everything.  What’s the 30% discount on OS?  Does Elite Premier get a different conversion rate for HHonors points?  Thanks!


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## HuskerATL (Aug 23, 2022)

Lampshade said:


> This is a great point to anyone considering purchasing in Scotland.  I definitely looked at the historic GBP to USD rate and agree that it’s definitely a good rate now.  As you mentioned, even if it goes back up to what it was a few years ago, that will only bring it equal to Las Vegas MF rates with the benefit of getting the Elite Premier status.  I hadn‘t done the math for if it went all the way to 2:1 GPB:USD, but with all the issues with Brexit, I don’t see that happening anytime soon.  Fingers crossed.
> 
> A big reason we decided to get so many points from Craigendarroch was so we could take advantage of the Elite Premier benefits.  Mainly, I didn’t want to pay extra every time we wanted to use our points.  We are used to DVC and the idea of having to pay fees to make reservations, bank points, or convert points to HHonors points would probably make us less inclined to use them.  Also, I was concerned that we would eventually not be able to buy points from Craigendarroch that were Elite eligible which is why we bought enough to get to Elite Premier right away.  We could have bought fewer now and just added more later, but if future purchases were no longer Elite eligible, our only option would be to purchase direct which would definitely not be worth the extra cost for the Elite benefits.


I love the no fees.  I book, cancel, book, and play....no charge...this saves you each time.  The combination of a lot of points and free booking makes it much easier to play with your vacation calendar. Between no booking fees or guest certs it has saved me more than, at least, one week's MFs plus the unit upgrades have a cost as well since you didn't pay for it but received the benefit.  There is no guarantee for the upgrade though.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 23, 2022)

Lampshade said:


> Could you elaborate on some of these?  I’ve read the HGVC club rules and looked at the Elite Premier benefits, but apparently am not familiar with everything.  What’s the 30% discount on OS?  Does Elite Premier get a different conversion rate for HHonors points?  Thanks!


When you get access to the HGV portal, you will see them but here are the screen shots:


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## HuskerATL (Aug 23, 2022)

Lampshade said:


> Could you elaborate on some of these?  I’ve read the HGVC club rules and looked at the Elite Premier benefits, but apparently am not familiar with everything.  What’s the 30% discount on OS?  Does Elite Premier get a different conversion rate for HHonors points?  Thanks!


Elite Premier get a 30% discount on Open Season.  Open Season are reservation within the next 30 days and you pay cash versus points. When the cash price is listed for the rooms that you want to rent, the 30% is already deducted so you book it with the discount. Guest certificates are $79 each but EP gets them for free.  EP can convert HGV points to HH at a 1:16 ratio so to calculate the real value, you need to determine how much those points cost you, typically your MF cost/# of points and then how that translates into hotel stays. # of points required versus the cost of the room, then compare.  If you have left over points though, it can be a good place to dump them with no expiration date versus saving into the next year or dumping into RCI, which is good for 2 years there.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 23, 2022)

We head to Miami for Labor Day weekend and will use the Lyft credit to pick us up at the airport and drop us at McAlpin...for free as part of the $250 Lyft credit.  So, when looking at cheap MFs and elite status, you can add all of these up and compare to the MF cost.


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## Lampshade (Aug 23, 2022)

So are you saying that only Elite Plus and above are able to convert Club Points to HHonors points?  I thought there was a fee if you weren’t at least Elite Plus and was free otherwise.  Obviously not the best use of points, but we do a lot of cross country traveling where we’re already staying at Hilton hotels.  It would be handy to just use HHonors points for those instead of having to pay cash, even if it’s not the best use of Club Points once MFs are calculated.  Thanks!


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## Lampshade (Aug 23, 2022)

Also, is there still a better exchange rate if you decide to convert next year’s Club Points to HHonors points before Dec 31 of the previous year?  In the Club Rules, it mentions a 20:1 ratio if you convert them for use in the current year, and a 25:1 if you convert next year’s points before the start of that year, for use next year.

This was before the 1.6x points change so the ratios don’t apply, but did they get rid of that early decision bonus?


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## GT75 (Aug 23, 2022)

Lampshade said:


> Also, is there still a better exchange rate if you decide to convert next year’s Club Points to HHonors points before Dec 31 of the previous year? In the Club Rules, it mentions a 20:1 ratio if you convert them for use in the current year, and a 25:1 if you convert next year’s points before the start of that year, for use next year.
> 
> This was before the 1.6x points change so the ratios don’t apply, but did they get rid of that early decision bonus?


Since you will be elite premier, you can convert any number of points at any time (no fees) at 25:1 (old system).


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## HuskerATL (Aug 23, 2022)

GT75 said:


> Since you will be elite premier, you can convert any number of points at any time (no fees) at 25:1 (old system).


But now 16:1....current points.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 23, 2022)

Lampshade said:


> Andrew did go over the requirement to cancel the pre-booked weeks in order to convert them to Club Points but I didn’t realize you could do that up to two years in advance.  That’s great to know since we don’t plan on visiting Scotland in the near future, although we probably will at some point.  Thanks!


yes, some folks can't find that.  It is in your reservation list and just click the Cancel Reservation link for that week.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 23, 2022)

Lampshade said:


> We could have bought fewer now and just added more later, but if future purchases were no longer Elite eligible, our only option would be to purchase direct which would definitely not be worth the extra cost for the Elite benefits.


This is why we bought a lot when we did.  It was supposed to  have ended April 15th and then has been extended.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 23, 2022)

Lampshade said:


> Also, is there still a better exchange rate if you decide to convert next year’s Club Points to HHonors points before Dec 31 of the previous year?


Hilton Honors Conversion for Following Year Use. Prior to December 31, 11:59 PM ET of the current use year, eligible Members may convert any or all of the next year’s allotment of
ClubPoints into Hilton Honors points at the current ratio of 1 ClubPoint to 16 Hilton Honors points for a fee. For example, 5,000 ClubPoints = 80,000 Hilton Honors points. Converted points will be
deposited into the Member’s Hilton Honors account the first week of January of the following year. Except as described below, ClubPoints may be converted into Hilton Honors points on an every other year basis (including owners of biennial interests),

This applies to non-E+/EP members.  E+ and EP can convert any amount at anytime.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 23, 2022)

Lampshade said:


> I thought there was a fee if you weren’t at least Elite Plus and was free otherwise


 for non-E+/EP:


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## Lampshade (Aug 23, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> But now 16:1....current points.



Ok, that makes sense, thanks!


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## escanoe (Aug 23, 2022)

Lampshade said:


> ... I figured it would be worthwhile to have you look at our purchase to QA it.  I also figured this information would be useful to anyone else looking to purchase through the Scotland property since most of the posts about Craigendarroch are at least a year old at this point.



It might be helpful for the purposes you imagine. Or it might be helpful to the HGVC program integrity folks that look at TUG occasionally. Honestly, if anyone wants to buy Craigendarroch for elite status, they should jump on it now. I am shocked this approach is still around.


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## frank808 (Aug 24, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> Definitely start to do this if you need to travel. Try to be in a point deficit. I am booking 2023 stays with 2024 points right now. Borrowing is free but saving/converting costs.



Another benefit of EP status is you pay no banking fees until August to bank. Banking after August, I believe it is $75 or $80 for EP ownership level. 

Sent from my SM-T290 using Tapatalk


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## GT75 (Aug 24, 2022)

frank808 said:


> Banking after August, I believe it is $75 or $80 for EP ownership level.


No, it is no fees to save points.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 24, 2022)

Here is a nice breakdown of the fees by Elite level.   You can see the benefits of EP here.


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## amirh (Aug 24, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> …
> Make sure to pay with the Hilton Aspire Amex so that it will count for 14x HH and you will get the $*250* resort credit.   If you don't have this card, get it.  You will get the nice chunk of bonus HH points with this purchase plus the 14x.  Also, if any of them have 2022 points, you will need to pay the 2022 MFs when you pay for the purchase price, otherwise, you won't pay until December/January for 2023 points.



Unfortunately, the lodges are no longer eligible for the resort credit as of this year.  Paying MF with the Aspire did not trigger the credit as it did last year. I got enough value out of the card this year on my trip to Israel (room upgrades on point reservations, usually $500 a night) but might have to downgrade next year.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 24, 2022)

amirh said:


> Unfortunately, the lodges are no longer eligible for the resort credit as of this year.  Paying MF with the Aspire did not trigger the credit as it did last year. I got enough value out of the card this year on my trip to Israel (room upgrades on point reservations, usually $500 a night) but might have to downgrade next year.


It worked for me this summer with my lodge purchase.  We got the 14x and the $250 credit.  Did you pay them by phone?


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## frank808 (Aug 24, 2022)

GT75 said:


> No, it is no fees to save points.


Then for EP, there is not benefit to borrowing points. Either way I have been borrowing from future years for current years. Saves me the $109 for banking. 

If I had to do this again, I would buy from the Scotland properties to get EP for no extra cost. Though buying at the District did take care of the largest expense annually which is the club reservation fees.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## JimmyQ (Aug 30, 2022)

Lampshade said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've been reading the posts on this message board for the last couple months and really appreciate all the great information available.  My wife and I have learned quite a bit about the HGVC program and, using information from all of you, have decided to make a purchase at Craigendarroch Lodges in Scotland through the official HGVC resale office there.
> 
> ...




Is the elite status offered to all resale buyers or only when purchasing from Andrew? 

What does the Elite program offer now that MAX is coming out?


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## HuskerATL (Aug 30, 2022)

JimmyQ said:


> Is the elite status offered to all resale buyers or only when purchasing from Andrew?
> 
> What does the Elite program offer now that MAX is coming out?


There seems to have been exceptions at times but otherwise, you need to purchase from the HGV office at each of the resorts in Scotland to be elite eligible. So far, I have not heard of anything changing for HGVClub Legacy elite members. You can see all the benefits of the HGV Elite page.


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## JimmyQ (Aug 31, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> Elite Premier get a 30% discount on Open Season.  Open Season are reservation within the next 30 days and you pay cash versus points. When the cash price is listed for the rooms that you want to rent, the 30% is already deducted so you book it with the discount. Guest certificates are $79 each but EP gets them for free.  EP can convert HGV points to HH at a 1:16 ratio so to calculate the real value, you need to determine how much those points cost you, typically your MF cost/# of points and then how that translates into hotel stays. # of points required versus the cost of the room, then compare.  If you have left over points though, it can be a good place to dump them with no expiration date versus saving into the next year or dumping into RCI, which is good for 2 years there.



This has all been extremely helpful information and I’d like to extend my thanks for fantastic knowledge sharing here.  

I did notice that Craig is “managed” by Hilton and wasn’t developed by Hilton.  Is it possible that Hilton could no longer “manage” the Craig and it therefore no longer becomes a HGV property?  If that were to happen I don’t see how anyone purchasing contracts there would be “grandfathered” into the HGV program.  Would owners just be left with Craig contracts for use?  Appreciate any insight and thoughts around this.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 31, 2022)

JimmyQ said:


> This has all been extremely helpful information and I’d like to extend my thanks for fantastic knowledge sharing here.
> 
> I did notice that Craig is “managed” by Hilton and wasn’t developed by Hilton.  Is it possible that Hilton could no longer “manage” the Craig and it therefore no longer becomes a HGV property?  If that were to happen I don’t see how anyone purchasing contracts there would be “grandfathered” into the HGV program.  Would owners just be left with Craig contracts for use?  Appreciate any insight and thoughts around this.


3 of the 4 Scotland properties are managed by HGV. The fourth, Craigendarroch Suites,  is part of HGV. I guess it is possible that they could stop managing them and that is true of any of the affiliates, like SW FL, Bay Club, Marbrisa, etc... they could stop being part of HGV. I doubt it would happen but possible. You aren't required to be part of HGV when you own at those and many aren't so, if the relationship ended, you would just own that week there. You have other trading/renting options though.


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## alexinorlando (Aug 31, 2022)

JimmyQ said:


> This has all been extremely helpful information and I’d like to extend my thanks for fantastic knowledge sharing here.
> 
> I did notice that Craig is “managed” by Hilton and wasn’t developed by Hilton.  Is it possible that Hilton could no longer “manage” the Craig and it therefore no longer becomes a HGV property?  If that were to happen I don’t see how anyone purchasing contracts there would be “grandfathered” into the HGV program.  Would owners just be left with Craig contracts for use?  Appreciate any insight and thoughts around this.



Actually there is at least one precedent to this that I know of (possibly more).

One of the Marco Island resorts, Sunset Cove Resort was managed or affiliated with Hilton at one point. Ownership’s could be enrolled with Hilton. At some point the property was acquired or entered into a new management contract with Holiday Inn Vacation Club. So now ownerships there can be enrolled into that club.

People who were already enrolled with Hilton at this resort still can use with Hilton and other Hilton members can make reservations at this resort with club points (although not much availability anymore).

So it seems to me that even if a property is no longer managed and being sold by Hilton you can still use it within the HiltonGrand Vacation Club and other members can use their points to use at said resort.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 31, 2022)

alexinorlando said:


> Actually there is at least one precedent to this that I know of (possibly more).
> 
> One of the Marco Island resorts, Sunset Cove Resort was managed or affiliated with Hilton at one point. Ownership’s could be enrolled with Hilton. At some point the property was acquired or entered into a new management contract with Holiday Inn Vacation Club. So now ownerships there can be enrolled into that club.
> 
> ...


That is interesting.  I have never stayed at Sunset Cove but do see it listed in the HGVC portal for reservations.  It is all 3 bedrooms, which I also find interesting.  A quick scan through availability and it is very limited...just a couple days here and there.


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## dayooper (Aug 31, 2022)

alexinorlando said:


> Actually there is at least one precedent to this that I know of (possibly more).
> 
> One of the Marco Island resorts, Sunset Cove Resort was managed or affiliated with Hilton at one point. Ownership’s could be enrolled with Hilton. At some point the property was acquired or entered into a new management contract with Holiday Inn Vacation Club. So now ownerships there can be enrolled into that club.
> 
> ...



Shell Island Beach Club was also managed by HGVC, but was voted out. New resale owners can still enroll in the HGVC club.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 31, 2022)

dayooper said:


> New resale owners can still enroll in the HGVC club


I am curious how this works if they were voted out? Wouldn't they either be an affiliate or not and, if not, why would owners have the ability to use clubpoints or, at least, new owners?  I could see existing owners but why new owners if they are no longer part of HGV?


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## dayooper (Aug 31, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> I am curious how this works if they were voted out? Wouldn't they either be an affiliate or not and, if not, why would owners have the ability to use clubpoints or, at least, new owners?  I could see existing owners but why new owners if they are no longer part of HGV?



That was the thought up until a few years ago. HGVC will enroll weeks and they are sold as HGVC weeks. This thread has info to the process. 









						Shell Island Beach Club Sanibel
					

I have a specific question about Shell Island which is not managed by HGVC. I read on a thread elsewhere that when a unit there is sold there that it is no longer a HGVC unit. How do I know if a resale unit is an HGVC unit? Also, if I purchase a unit that is not HGVC can I get it back into HGVC...




					tugbbs.com
				




Anderson Ocean Club has a similar set up. It was originally a full ownership condo that contracted with HGVC to sell the remaining units as timeshare weeks. The entire complex is managed by Oceana. They are the rental management division of Wyndham Hotels.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 31, 2022)

dayooper said:


> Anderson Ocean Club has a similar set up


Thanks.  For the most part, there is always availability at Anderson and it isn't listed in HGV any differently than Ocean 22 or Enclave so I assumed it was the same as those.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 31, 2022)

dayooper said:


> This thread has info to the process.


Well....that was a confusing read....best that I could get from it is that Shell existing owners who were in HGVC, can still be in HGVC and new owners can exchange into HGVC.  If that is the case, then I guess it is their weeks that you see in the portal for reservations because there are a few 2 day availabilities here and there.

Also, here is an updated map of the one shown on that thread that may be of interest:


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## dayooper (Aug 31, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> Thanks.  For the most part, there is always availability at Anderson and it isn't listed in HGV any differently than Ocean 22 or Enclave so I assumed it was the same as those.



All of the SC properties were built and owned by a 3rd party, Strand Capitol. The partnership between HGVC and Strand link back to the Anderson deal. You can purchase a unit at Anderson from an owner, but they are pretty expensive.


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## HuskerATL (Aug 31, 2022)

dayooper said:


> All of the SC properties were built and owned by a 3rd party, Strand Capitol. The partnership between HGVC and Strand link back to the Anderson deal. You can purchase a unit at Anderson from an owner, but they are pretty expensive.


That is what I thought. So are you saying that Oceana manages pre-HGVC owners?


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## JimmyQ (Aug 31, 2022)

What is the difference between the Craigdarroch Lodges and Craigdarroch suites?


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## HuskerATL (Aug 31, 2022)

JimmyQ said:


> What is the difference between the Craigdarroch Lodges and Craigdarroch suites?


Just a different resort. The lodges are individual cabins, cheaper, and managed by HGV where the Suites are rooms like the resorts in the US, more expensive but part of HGV versus only being managed by HGV. You can compare them on the HGV website.


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## ksimm (Sep 1, 2022)

Lampshade said:


> From what I've seen on some of the various timeshare resale sites, these contracts are pretty competitive with the overall resale market.  That's before you take into account they are direct sales from HGVC and count towards Elite status.  I asked about HGVMax and was told that, officially, Craigendarroch sales don't count towards that program.  However, Andrew said that other owners have received emails welcoming them to HGVMax and I also received a similar email after we put in our purchase order.  We'll see what happens with that (we have not paid anything extra towards HGVMax).



 I'm curious, have you found out for sure if you're in Max yet or not? I just started the process of buying a 2 bedroom platinum from the Craig, I couldn't justify going all in like you did yet. I'm hoping that they will stay elite eligible for a while, because it would be nice to get that benefit eventually. I just don't have enough vacation time now to use up all those points!


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## dayooper (Sep 1, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> That is what I thought. So are you saying that Oceana manages pre-HGVC owners?



They manage the building for everybody. HGVC sells the weeks for Strand and enrolls them into the club. Oceana manages the checkin, room assignment and housekeeping for the entire building.


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## GT75 (Sep 1, 2022)

JimmyQ said:


> What is the difference between the Craigdarroch Lodges and Craigdarroch suites?


Both Craigdarroch lodges and suites are RTU (right to use) but lodges are in perpetuity (forever) and suites have an end date (like 50 years but I think can be extended).   Obviously, these aren't deeded properties which makes the transfer fees much less.


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## JimmyQ (Sep 1, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> And no guest cert fees, 30% discount on OS, conversion to HH isn't terrible since the MFs are currently cheap because of the exchange rate, and potential for unit upgrades...I have gotten some...



When you convert to HH do the HH points have an expiry, or do they just sit in your HH account until you use them on hotels?


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## HuskerATL (Sep 1, 2022)

JimmyQ said:


> When you convert to HH do the HH points have an expiry, or do they just sit in your HH account until you use them on hotels?


No expiration date, as long as the account stays active.


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## escanoe (Sep 1, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> No expiration date, as long as the account stays active.



It’s like a 401(v) vacation plan as the sales agents say!  And it is not protected from inflation/devaluation over time.


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## spdhanr (Sep 26, 2022)

Lampshade said:


> From what I've seen on some of the various timeshare resale sites, these contracts are pretty competitive with the overall resale market. That's before you take into account they are direct sales from HGVC and count towards Elite status. I asked about HGVMax and was told that, officially, Craigendarroch sales don't count towards that program. However, Andrew said that other owners have received emails welcoming them to HGVMax and I also received a similar email after we put in our purchase order. We'll see what happens with that (we have not paid anything extra towards HGVMax).



This is what I got from Andrew: 
Some Owners gained HGVMax earlier this year which was subsequently taken away as it was in error. Purchases at Craigendarroch count towards Elite, whatever tier you are (presuming you mean Premier rather than Platinum).


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## HuskerATL (Sep 26, 2022)

spdhanr said:


> This is what I got from Andrew:
> Some Owners gained HGVMax earlier this year which was subsequently taken away as it was in error. Purchases at Craigendarroch count towards Elite, whatever tier you are (presuming you mean Premier rather than Platinum).


This is correct. They don't count toward Max but do count toward elite status. We didn't get into Max with our purchase but are elite premier now.


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## spdhanr (Sep 26, 2022)

How do we get to Max from here then? Being in Calif, I see value in using these points into Diamond Resorts


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## HuskerATL (Sep 26, 2022)

spdhanr said:


> How do we get to Max from here then? Being in Calif, I see value in using these points into Diamond Resorts


You can either wait for the $7k fee to join, upgrade an existing deed with HGV, or buy a new retail deed.


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## Lodemia (Sep 27, 2022)

spdhanr said:


> How do we get to Max from here then? Being in Calif, I see value in using these points into Diamond Resorts


Or buy a resale deed from the diamond collection you want. They are given away for less than $500 regularly.


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## HuskerATL (Sep 27, 2022)

Lodemia said:


> Or buy a resale deed from the diamond collection you want. They are given away for less than $500 regularly.


The only problem with this is that you would end up with two buckets of points.


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## Lodemia (Sep 27, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> The only problem with this is that you would end up with two buckets of points.


True!


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## frank808 (Sep 27, 2022)

But save $6500.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## HuskerATL (Sep 27, 2022)

frank808 said:


> But save $6500


But you would need to have enough points in each bucket to be worth having


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## 1Kflyerguy (Sep 27, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> But you would need to have enough points in each bucket to be worth having



Exactly,  That does not seem like a good strategy for our needs.  It may work for others,  but I don't really really want to add an additional system to my portfolio..


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## HuskerATL (Sep 27, 2022)

1Kflyerguy said:


> Exactly,  That does not seem like a good strategy for our needs.  It may work for others,  but I don't really really want to add an additional system to my portfolio..


I like the idea of it and Corrina Chen has a lot of points in each bucket so she can work the system but for me, I would rather stick to  one bucket and wait and see what Max does.  So far, nothing too exciting until more properties are online and the system is live.


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## Lodemia (Sep 28, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> I like the idea of it and Corrina Chen has a lot of points in each bucket so she can work the system but for me, I would rather stick to  one bucket and wait and see what Max does.  So far, nothing too exciting until more properties are online and the system is live.


There was a diamond US collection on eBay like a week ago. If memory serves me, it was 26,000 pts at $2k maintenance fee.  It sold for $200. i decided to do a lot more education on diamond before I bit off on that one. I’m also considering other systems rather than being so invested in HGV.

Like anything in this resale game, it’s knowing exactly what you want and buying at an opportunistic time.  I personally think that resales are going to increase so now’s a time to be a buyer.


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## HuskerATL (Sep 28, 2022)

Lodemia said:


> 26,000 pts at $2k maintenance fee. It sold for $200.


That isn't bad.  I thought DRI MFs were higher than that.


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## 1Kflyerguy (Sep 28, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> I like the idea of it and Corrina Chen has a lot of points in each bucket so she can work the system but for me, I would rather stick to  one bucket and wait and see what Max does.  So far, nothing too exciting until more properties are online and the system is live.



No single solution is right for everyone... So far i have found a few locations / resorts that look interesting,  but don't think there are ennough with interest in repeat visits to merit adding a second bucket of points...

I would probably more open to the idea if I did not also own with Marriott.. Our primary destination remains Hawaii and between HGV and MVC they cover all the islands... We do travel to other locations, but we can use hotels or just rent / pay cash for T/S stay.


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## Lodemia (Sep 28, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> That isn't bad.  I thought DRI MFs were higher than that.





			eBay


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## CrazyAsian (Nov 13, 2022)

For those of you who have bought Craigendarroch - given what happened at Coylumbridge do you have any concerns?  I had a pending contract at Craigendarroch and wasn't sure if I should still go through with it.  Have you heard anything?


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## HuskerATL (Nov 13, 2022)

CrazyAsian said:


> For those of you who have bought Craigendarroch - given what happened at Coylumbridge do you have any concerns?  I had a pending contract at Craigendarroch and wasn't sure if I should still go through with it.  Have you heard anything?


We have some there and not worried..... At the moment. It sounds like this was an isolated incident, I think, Craig is a bit more shielded since there is also Craigendarroch Suites that are owned by HGV.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 13, 2022)

@CrazyAsian I own at Craig and visited last summer. I am also not worried for several reasons below.

1) At Craig there are Inter-dependencies. As stated above, HGVC owns the main hotel building where the Craig suites are located. There are shared common amenities for the hotel site and lodges with the indoor pool, fitness room, restaurant and game rooms in the HGVC Building and a tennis court in the middle of the lodges area which are available to suites hotel guests. The check-in desk is also in the building and shared. These common amenities spread the overhead costs across the lodges and suites. If the lodges were eliminated and the lodge owners opted to not pay for the amenities, the suite owners/HGVC would have much higher MF to maintain these amenities.

HVC/Coylumbridge did not have such synergies with the onsite hotel which is apparently in poor repair and not part of the Hilton or HGV brands. With only 8.5% of Lodge owners in the HVC, reported disagreements with the Coy ownership committee, reported issues with maintenance reserves, and no hotel ownership, one can see that there were few strategic reasons for HGVC to continue to manage this property.

2) Following is a note on the Craig owners website:

*From your Chairman*
_"It was announced by HGV on 1 November that it will end its management agreement with Coylumbridge with effect from 1 February. This note is to reassure owners that there is no cause for concern at Craigendarroch. The news arises from circumstances that are unique to Coylumbridge – which I understand – and does not affect or change HGV’s management relationship with other Scottish resorts.

I sought specific assurance on this from Neil Hutchinson, Senior Vice President at HGV, and he replied as follows: ‘Please rest assured that HGV is fully committed to continuing our relationship with Craigendarroch Lodges. We are pleased with the continued improvement in our working relationship with your committee and owners’.

Peter Drury
Chairman"_

Could something happen? Maybe, but in the meantime the dollar is strong, MF are really low because of it so I am ahead for now. If HGVC drops (unlikely for the reasons below), then we can trade Craig in Interval International. YMMV based on your appetite for risk.


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## bizaro86 (Nov 13, 2022)

CrazyAsian said:


> For those of you who have bought Craigendarroch - given what happened at Coylumbridge do you have any concerns?  I had a pending contract at Craigendarroch and wasn't sure if I should still go through with it.  Have you heard anything?



If it were me I'd cancel. The people who are staying with Craig have mostly already bought so don't really have a choice, for them worrying adds no value. For you, you can choose.

There are 2 possibilities:

1) nothing changes, and Craig remains in HGVC
----this is the best case scenario, and you won't lose by buying now. But if you're not in a rush you can almost certainly get the same deal later once a renewal or two has gone by.

2) Craig gets dropped 
-----in this case you'll have a big loss, as using it as an II trader it has a value of ~$0 imo. You can get similar quality II trading TS for free, so while that mitigates the loss of HGVC somewhat as a backup plan, losing hgvc would still be a big loss. 

If it was me I'd rescind. Lots of contracts are getting cancelled right now for Craig, so even if you do decide to go ahead in a couple of months you're likely to get a better deal by waiting.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 14, 2022)

bizaro86 said:


> If it were me I'd cancel. The people who are staying with Craig have mostly already bought so don't really have a choice, for them worrying adds no value. For you, you can choose.


I would say that you need to weigh your decision based on your need and acceptable level of risk.  I don't think Craig is going anywhere but, as we saw with Coy, it can.  If you are able to get a inexpensive  purchase with low MFs that meets your needs, then it is a lower risk since you make up the cost pretty quickly and can dump it later, if need be.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 14, 2022)

What II resort with trading power can be bought for $0?

There is no risk-free solution. Including buying resorts in the U.S. We own both.

Risk of waiting:

* The GPB per USD is at an all-time low. Even if prices decline, the actual cost may be the same or more if the dollar weakens. While MF will fluctuate, you only get one chance to lock in a purchase price. I don't know what the poster has offered but you can always go back and negotiate with the seller now to ease your perception of risk.  That's what I would do.

* My MF in Craig for a 2 Bdrm (with GBP to US conversion) is at least $250/year less than my "inexpensive" Vegas 2 bdrm. Count that up over 4 years and I have saved $1000 in MF. That's almost a quarter of the price of my Craig investment recouped vs. Vegas. Approx. one free Craig MF for every 3 years owning Vegas. Plus Vegas will have about $1000 - $1500 in closing fees that the RTU in Craig does not. And you will need to wait months to close your resale with a potentially risky seller.  In addition to II, one can rent out the Craig summer units for more than MF to recoup the remainder of the purchase price then move on. 

* The Elite benefit may be taken away from future purchases. Possibly with the next rule book in 2023. (We will be grandfathered as long as HGVC offers elite  benefits because it is written into our contract.)

* IMO these prices are already at or near rock bottom with < $6k US purchase. If potentially  losing this amount of money keeps you up at night you should not buy a timeshare (or play in the stock market. Have you looked at your stock portfolio recently?)

Just to compare: we lost 3x our Craig investment in a single developer retail purchase over the past 5 years - that's real dollars if we sold today resale. Now consider which of these option has less risk?

YMMV based on your tolerance for risk and financial situation.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 14, 2022)

Just to add also, we paid about $2k for each of our Craig purchases and have probably already come out ahead with our vacations.  Could this change in the future, of course, but that is true for any affiliate or even ones that are managed by HGV, like South Carolina. Will those?  I doubt it but Coy has show us that HGV will do what is best for them without considering their owners.


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## CrazyAsian (Nov 14, 2022)

$2K for how many points?


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## HuskerATL (Nov 14, 2022)

CrazyAsian said:


> $2K for how many points?


7680 for a 1 bedroom platinum but also about that for a 2 bedroom gold that is 8000


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## HuskerATL (Nov 14, 2022)

Here is the MF part to keep in mind also.


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## bizaro86 (Nov 14, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Just to compare: we lost 3x our Craig investment in a single developer retail purchase over the past 5 years - that's real dollars if we sold today resale. Now consider which of these option has less risk?



Obviously buying retail is a bad choice and has nothing to do with whether a Craig purchase is a good idea. How much you'd lose on a developer purchase is a comparison of apples to footballs. 



CalGalTraveler said:


> What II resort with trading power can be bought for $0?



As to what II resort can be bought for zero, the answer to that is plenty of them. I have a couple of sheraton Desert Oasis units that were free, and they have Craig level fees and lock off to 2x one bedrooms that trade very well in II, plus have Vistana and secondary Marriott preference. There are 4br lockoffs in the east coast, lower point Hyatt units, etc. Tons of choices. It isn't that Craig is a bad II trader, it's just that if that's what you want you can get something as good or better for essentially free, so why pay $6k for Craig.




CalGalTraveler said:


> * The GPB per USD is at an all-time low. Even if prices decline, the actual cost may be the same or more if the dollar weakens. While MF will fluctuate, you only get one chance to lock in a purchase price. I don't know what the poster has offered but you can always go back and negotiate with the seller now to ease your perception of risk.  That's what I would do.



The GBP is at a low level, which is a factor. That doesn't make it more likely to go up than go down, however. I do think prices are likely to go down so re-negotiating the deal to a lower price would be one way of easing the risk. I would comment that if you think the GBP is going to go way up, you're committing to ongoing fees in that currency, so it seems to me that would make Craig much less desirable for a US based purchaser as well. 



CalGalTraveler said:


> In addition to II, one can rent out the Craig summer units for more than MF to recoup the remainder of the purchase price then move on.
> 
> * The Elite benefit may be taken away from future purchases. Possibly with the next rule book in 2023. (We will be grandfathered as long as HGVC offers elite  benefits because it is written into our contract.)



Anyone buying to use or rent these units in the summer isn't affected at all and should go ahead. If they left it would probably up the bad debt to the association as some owners will default but probably not the end of the world. I wouldn't value the elite perks very highly, and think it's likely that they will get reduced over time anyway and moved to Max owners only as they try and sell the "latest and greatest" thing. If they slowly reduce the elite benefits to nothing and add new benefits to Max I wouldn't expect HGVC to give you that. 




CalGalTraveler said:


> * IMO these prices are already at or near rock bottom with < $6k US purchase. If potentially  losing this amount of money keeps you up at night you should not buy a timeshare (or play in the stock market. Have you looked at your stock portfolio recently?)



I have more money than I need because I don't waste it. Nobody said anything about being up at night over $6k, but a couple of people did ask for advice. Since most of the comments they got are from people who already own Craig and have a vested interested in pricing staying high I thought I'd chime in with an alternative opinion. Obviously I don't expect to change your mind (and as I mentioned for those who already own worrying adds no value at all).

Since we're on a complete aside, I'm up more than 15% year to date stock portfolio wise because I rotated into a decent portion of my portfolio into energy stocks (which were historically cheap) at the beginning of the year. That doesn't mean I'm correct about this, since it has absolutely nothing to do with whether it makes sense to buy Craig or not. 

Except for maybe by analogy - Warren Buffet has said there are no called strikes in investing, which means wait for an obvious fat pitch before you swing. I think timeshares are the same. It's never an emergency to buy one, they're a luxury good. So personally, I wait for things that are obviously a great deal for my family before I buy. The uncertainty around Craig excludes that from the list for me right now. YMMV.


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## HuskerATL (Nov 14, 2022)

bizaro86 said:


> I wouldn't value the elite perks very highly,


I would argue against this. With EP, you don't have any booking fee, free guest certs, and can get upgrades, which we have. This year I have booked 28 reservations ($59 each) but many I have cancelled since I can book for free as a place holder so being EP for that has saved us $1,652. We have used 6 guest certs ($79 each) so that is another $474 savings. Then toss in the upgrades which I don't have a price for but it is a nice perk. Also, add in the Lyft credit of $250 which will be used up with our Vegas trip in a week. Then there are the non-monetary perks like the wrist bands, dedicated customer service line, etc. You can add in the 30% discount on Open Season but we have not used that this year.


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## bizaro86 (Nov 14, 2022)

HuskerATL said:


> I would argue against this. With EP, you don't have any booking fee, free guest certs, and can get upgrades, which we have. This year I have booked 28 reservations ($59 each) but many I have cancelled since I can book for free as a place holder so being EP for that has saved us $1,652. We have bought used 6 guest certs ($79 each) so that is another $474 savings. Then toss in the upgrades which I don't have a price for but it is a nice perk. Also, add in the Lyft credit of $250 which will be used up with our Vegas trip in a week. Then there are the non-monetary perks like the wrist bands, dedicated customer service line, etc. You can add in the 30% discount on Open Season but we have not used that this year.



If you're booking that many reservations and have the top tier it definitely adds value.


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## GT75 (Nov 15, 2022)

I believe the safest decision when purchasing HGVC is to purchase the unit in the season at a resort that you would like to visit each year.  That way, if either HGVC rules change or the resort is no longer in HGVC, you can still enjoy either your deeded fixed week or Home Week each year.   This was always the advice that Tug user @Panina would give.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 15, 2022)

I think we can agree that both US and Scotland have pros/cons and risks. We own both.

In assessing affiliates such as Scotland, FL gulf, Bay Club etc. it is important to analyze the underlying structure of the HGVC/resort relationship. They are all different and you cannot look at them as simplistically the same. For example, Coy and Craig have significant ownership/structural differences which matters to assessing the risk of HGVC ceasing to manage.

If HGVC decided to leave Craig altogether, for the Suites they would need to sell the building whereas at Coy they simply needed to cancel a management contract. Selling the building would be akin to selling a USA property that HGVC owns. Unlikely unless the building is unprofitable and in need of great repair. AFAIK the Craig suites building appeared in good shape.

Unless the Craig lodge committee is unbearable and the lodges highly unprofitable (which I doubt), there is no financial incentive to remove managing the lodges because they would still need to remain and pay overhead to manage the Suites and main building that HGVC owns. i.e. they also would be unable to share the overhead costs of their building and pool amenities reducing profitability. A significant structural cost and customer experience synergy exists to remain with the Craig resort.

AFAIK the Florida affiliates aren't even managed by HGVC so the relationship is thin. But it makes for good sales candy even though there isn't much availability. OTOH, they could easily jettison many of those relationships if they decided it was below a revenue threshold to bother managing the relationship. They only need one resort the add a pinpoint to their sales chart.

YMMV...do your due diligence.


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## timsi (Nov 15, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> *What II resort with trading power can be bought for $0?*
> 
> There is no risk-free solution. Including buying resorts in the U.S. We own both.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said, there is no risk-free purchase. At the same time we do not know what the trading power would be if HGVC pulls out. Most American owners have purchased for HGVC so currently there are very few II deposits, and this makes them more valuable. If all those that use HGVC are forced to use Interval, the trading power may weaken significantly.  Also, it seems the Craig units are fixed but the HGVC calendar is pretty generous with the platinum season and not all the units bought for HGVC will have top trading power.  Additional deposits may also come from a slowing resale market. Yes, there are very few good traders for zero dollars, but they are not expensive either, they do not come with currency risk, and they may have priority that Craig does not have.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 15, 2022)

@timsi Good points. What I am describing is a worst-case fallback option vs. the II SDO strategy which is an upfront trader strategy (which could also risk trading power limitations by MVC since they own II to stop arbitragers and force developer purchases).  I would never buy Craig just for the II relationship, however it is a nice backup option if you own plat summer weeks.

There are only 201 former HGVC members at Coy so if they joined II (TBD if they can do so. Craig belongs to II) that would hardly flood the market compared to the large MVC and Vistana desert traders.


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## spdhanr (Nov 16, 2022)

Great discussion. Loved the read.

Does buying at Tuscany or Portugal make sense given the strong $ to get to the premium elite status?


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## PigsDad (Nov 16, 2022)

spdhanr said:


> Great discussion. Loved the read.
> 
> Does buying at Tuscany or Portugal make sense given the strong $ to get to the premium elite status?


To my knowledge, resales as Tuscany or Portugal do not count toward elite status.

Kurt


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 16, 2022)

Good question. When we visited Borgo, we attended a sales presentation that I thought was HGVC. That was 7 years ago so things may have changed. The resort was new we were new and Elite was not on our minds..


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## HuskerATL (Nov 16, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> To my knowledge, resales as Tuscany or Portugal do not count toward elite status.


This comes up often about which resale do count.  We know the Scotland do and the SW FL have in the past but I have heard they they may not now and they are not on the list in the reference guide, and I have heard that MarBrisa does. Do we have a list of those that currently count toward elite?  I know the reference guide has a list of Elite eligible resorts on page 14 but I am not sure which only count from retail sales versus resale. Borgo is on the list and so is Vilamoura but not sure if they are only elite eligible if they are retail.


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