# [2018] Slim pickings on resale



## Railman83 (Feb 9, 2018)

EBay, Redweek, and the usual suspects have very few low mf contracts of any size, and few small ones.   For a while there was a flood of CWA contracts, but even less of those. 

What is left is a few crap contracts that a year ago couldn’t be given away.

One wonders if this is all Ovation?


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## TUGBrian (Feb 9, 2018)

3 dozen or so packages right on TUG alone?

https://tug2.com/timeshare-classifi...True&AdTypePoints=True&PointsProgram=Wyndham&


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## kaljor (Feb 10, 2018)

It's funny, I skim eBay quite a bit to keep up with current sale prices, and I will say that most of what's listed does seem to be selling.  I also see a lot more auctions where there are no costs other that your winning bid.  As far as what is available, I see a fair amount of CWA, and it seems to be going for just under or just over a penny a point.  Obviously some of the contracts are too big for some shoppers and some are too small, but they do seem to be there. 

I haven't checked the TUG classified in a while, I will take a look right now.


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## kaljor (Feb 10, 2018)

Just glanced at the link posted, and he's correct.  You have to read every ad to get a feel, but if you want to pick up a contract without the uncertainty of an auction, it's a good idea.  There were some with lower MF's, and I assume that with these ads, the seller may be willing to negotiate a bit.  Unlike eBay.


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## Railman83 (Feb 10, 2018)

That is several months worth of ads on TUG, and you don’t see the National Harbors, Canterbury, La Belle, PCBs, and so forth either there or on EBay.  It used to be you’d see free contacts on bargain deals on mid sized mid mf contracts; these are less frequent.

I’ve been watching EBay and Tug daily for a couple of years and what I’m seeing is smaller contracts in general, contracts with middling to high mfs in general; in short, generally the less desirable stuff.   I don’t have it spreadsheeted out, but early in the year in 2016 and 2017, you had a much better selection of larger, more desirable contracts.






TUGBrian said:


> 3 dozen or so packages right on TUG alone?
> 
> https://tug2.com/timeshare-classifi...True&AdTypePoints=True&PointsProgram=Wyndham&


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## md8287 (Feb 10, 2018)

I agree, very few (especially reasonably priced) Wyndham contracts flowing through right now. Good for selling I suppose.


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## ilya (Feb 10, 2018)

Railman83 said:


> That is several months worth of ads on TUG, and you don’t see the National Harbors, Canterbury, La Belle, PCBs, and so forth either there or on EBay.  It used to be you’d see free contacts on bargain deals on mid sized mid mf contracts; these are less frequent.
> 
> I’ve been watching EBay and Tug daily for a couple of years and what I’m seeing is smaller contracts in general, contracts with middling to high mfs in general; in short, generally the less desirable stuff.   I don’t have it spreadsheeted out, but early in the year in 2016 and 2017, you had a much better selection of larger, more desirable contracts.




I agree as well. Has anyone bought from TUG recently. I wonder if the contracts are still available. This time last year there was a ton on Ebay.


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## TUGBrian (Feb 10, 2018)

Railman83 said:


> That is several months worth of ads on TUG, and you don’t see the National Harbors, Canterbury, La Belle, PCBs, and so forth either there or on EBay.  It used to be you’d see free contacts on bargain deals on mid sized mid mf contracts; these are less frequent.
> 
> I’ve been watching EBay and Tug daily for a couple of years and what I’m seeing is smaller contracts in general, contracts with middling to high mfs in general; in short, generally the less desirable stuff.   I don’t have it spreadsheeted out, but early in the year in 2016 and 2017, you had a much better selection of larger, more desirable contracts.



all ads on TUG have been posted or renewed within the last 90 days.

while I dont monitor ebay, based on our resale history page, there hasnt been a wyndam (or wyndham points) resort in the top 25 resales posted on TUG since 2014.


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## Arimaas (Feb 10, 2018)

So let me ask you veteran Wyndham folks then. I think I want to get into Wyndham (I've posted on this, so I won't bore you again with my reasoning and background), but thought it was a good idea to wait, see how my Hilton unit works out for awhile before committing to another Timeshare. However, with the resale market slowing down (from what you have reported) and the Ovation program being pushed (obviously to try and slow down the resale market), does it pay to grab a contract now? I'm looking at 154,000 points so that I can get a 1-BR basically wherever and whenever I want for a week. Maybe get an EOY contract to start?

Just asking the 2¢ of the Wyndham experts on here.


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## Railman83 (Feb 10, 2018)

There will always be something somewhere at 154 that is worth buying.  I’d actually recommend 238k because the program fee is $128 flat and like .56 per thousand whichever is higher.  So a 49k or 105k or a 154k will pay $128 until the .56 kicks in around 230 or so.   Think of it as a regressive tax on lower point owners.

A lot has been said about maintenance fees being the long run cost and that is true, but only becomes noticeable if you are building a sizable position (I have 1.5 million) and you plan on holding a long time. 

 For example if you have 154k and you have low mf of, say 5 per thousand that is $64 per month, mid mf of 6 or would be $77, high of say 7 is $89.   You can get the 6.5 or 7 for free usually with free transfer and closing which is about $600 or so.

So if you choice is to buy 154k at Grand Desert you might pay $750 plus $600 in closing costs to have those $64 per month fees.

If you bought 154 elsewhere at 6 you would pay $13 per month more but have saved $1350 initial cost.   So you would be ahead for 8.65 years, 11+ years if you count the interest on the $1350 you didn’t spend.

When you multiply by 10 or do and you are talking 1.5M and your time horizon is 25 years then the mf become more important.

I’m tied in at 5.5 with 11 contracts of mixed quality.   If I had to do over I’d have got 3-5 big contracts, but the upside for my portfolio is I can peal off contracts gradually is I get increasingly closer to death.  Some have worth, some are attractive free, a couple would be hard to give away (7-8) and I would have to pair with a larger nicer contract to make someone else’s math work out.

My advice is to look in the 5.5-6.25 range if you can get for $1000-1500 all in for a 231k.  I thought I overpaid for one on tug (1900 for 238k with mf of 4.56) but I’m now glad I did.

My second advice is to look a rental sites that have Wyndham properties.   Booking.com has a one bedroom for $729 and a two bedroom for $797 on a Friday two night stay at Nat harbor prime summer   Using points at my 5.6 rate would save $237 and $336 respectively for using 100k or 60K respectively.   Seldom are larger units at popular times available so another plus for owing.

Extrapolating our for your 154 intent you would save $500 to $610 off a retail price for those 154k.   You tend to save more with smaller units over retail so your mileage may vary.

One way to find a bargain is converted fixed week anomalies.   Essentially you look on EBay and it will be a resort widely known to be a high range mf, except the previous owner had converted a high demand fixed week and got more points for lower fees.  Hard to find and you should email seller for estoppel for sure, but a lot of “collectors” will pass because they assume the mfs are higher  like rest of resort and don’t bother to read ad.






Arimaas said:


> So let me ask you veteran Wyndham folks then. I think I want to get into Wyndham (I've posted on this, so I won't bore you again with my reasoning and background), but thought it was a good idea to wait, see how my Hilton unit works out for awhile before committing to another Timeshare. However, with the resale market slowing down (from what you have reported) and the Ovation program being pushed (obviously to try and slow down the resale market), does it pay to grab a contract now? I'm looking at 154,000 points so that I can get a 1-BR basically wherever and whenever I want for a week. Maybe get an EOY contract to start?
> 
> Just asking the 2¢ of the Wyndham experts on here.


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## Braindead (Feb 10, 2018)

Arimaas said:


> So let me ask you veteran Wyndham folks then. I think I want to get into Wyndham (I've posted on this, so I won't bore you again with my reasoning and background), but thought it was a good idea to wait, see how my Hilton unit works out for awhile before committing to another Timeshare. However, with the resale market slowing down (from what you have reported) and the Ovation program being pushed (obviously to try and slow down the resale market), does it pay to grab a contract now? I'm looking at 154,000 points so that I can get a 1-BR basically wherever and whenever I want for a week. Maybe get an EOY contract to start?.


None of us can predict what resale prices will be a year from now.
If Ovation gets more popular simple supply and demand would indicate prices could rise.
In simple math if you buy 154k points with MFs of $5 per thousand verses one that $6 per thousand MFs you will save $154.00 a year in MFs.
If you do the same on 1,500,000 points you would save $1,500.00 per year on MFs. So yes it adds up fast.
Only buy a high MF property if have to own there for ARP.
I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND anyone buying even resale if you plan on owning less than 5 years. This the only time I would recommend renting.
As long as you are in for 10 plus years buy low MF resorts and your more likely you will get your some of your money back.
You will also have a better chance that Wyndham will take it back through Ovation. Remember they can pick and choose which resales they will take back


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## Roger830 (Feb 10, 2018)

Arimaas said:


> I'm looking at 154,000 points so that I can get a 1-BR basically wherever and whenever I want for a week. Maybe get an EOY contract to start?



The EOY makes sense. I have two of the EOY Panama City 168,000 point contracts, which have very low MF. A big advantage of EOY is when it comes time to sell. Wyndham has been transferring current year points when contracts are sold. If I sell my odd year EOY today, there are no current year points.

154,000 won't get a 1-BR at all resorts.


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## Dave Landry (Feb 13, 2018)

ilya said:


> I agree as well. Has anyone bought from TUG recently. I wonder if the contracts are still available. This time last year there was a ton on Ebay.



Purchased Panama City from tug in October of last year. Still waiting on transfer.


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## spackler (Feb 14, 2018)

On eBay, I use the search string "wyndham (pts, points) -worldmark -access" as I'm not interested in CWA, and the numbers have steadily gone down over the past year or so.  Right now only 8 auctions fit that search, down from 50-60 last year.


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## needhelp (Feb 14, 2018)

spackler said:


> On eBay, I use the search string "wyndham (pts, points) -worldmark -access" as I'm not interested in CWA, and the numbers have steadily gone down over the past year or so.  Right now only 8 auctions fit that search, down from 50-60 last year.


I have a search for "wyndham timeshare Canterbury" and "wyndham timeshare south shore"; I never get any results


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## Dave Landry (Feb 14, 2018)

I was offered a 189k south Shore contract for 2000 if I also paid closing costs. Ended up passing and got a 259k Panama city for 2000 including all closing fees. Was afraid that I overpaid but haven't seen anything close yet unless I wanted to buy a million or more points.


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## scootr5 (Feb 14, 2018)

needhelp said:


> I have a search for "wyndham timeshare Canterbury" and "wyndham timeshare south shore"; I never get any results



I’ve only seen a resale South Shore twice. The second time was the one I purchased.


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## Dave Landry (Feb 15, 2018)

A 686000 National Harbour just sold for over 10.50/1000 on Ebay! Not seeing many bargains lately for sure.


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## CCdad (Feb 16, 2018)

Someone paid the Buy It Now (BIN) price of $4,200 + $450 closing costs + $299 transfer fee for the 500K National Harbor contract yesterday morning.  

The seller on that auction originally wanted $7,495 BIN plus costs, then relisted for it $4,995 BIN plus costs and finally dropped it to $4,200 BIN plus costs over the course of ten days or so.


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## Arimaas (Feb 16, 2018)

Where is the best place  to go for Wyndham resales? TUG? I through the question out there again, do you guys think the resale market is drying up? Have you seen this before? I was waiting to see what kind of tax return I get before diving in to a Wyndham contract.


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## Dave Landry (Feb 16, 2018)

Arimaas said:


> Where is the best place  to go for Wyndham resales? TUG? I through the question out there again, do you guys think the resale market is drying up? Have you seen this before? I was waiting to see what kind of tax return I get before diving in to a Wyndham contract.


I purchased here in the marketplace. I really don't think the resale market will ever dry up unless Wyndham starts massively purchasing contracts back. Once you decide to jump in just be patient and watch the ads. Sooner or later something will pop up that suits your needs. As members age or get tired of traveling they may not have family to pass it down to or have any who want it.


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## ronparise (Feb 16, 2018)

In the past most of the contracts on eBay came from the various timeshare relief companies (formerly known as “post card” companies)  If you don’t know, these companies will take your timeshares off your hands if you pay them a fee.

Since Wyndham will take back their product (and, in certain cases, buy it back),  there is no need to pay anyone to get rid of a Wyndham timeshare. As a result, the timeshare relief companies don’t get much Wyndham and Therefore very few Wyndham contracts show up on eBay

At least that’s this former owners analysis


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## Braindead (Feb 16, 2018)

ronparise said:


> In the past most of the contracts on eBay came from the various timeshare relief companies (formerly known as “post card” companies)  If you don’t know, these companies will take your timeshares off your hands if you pay them a fee.
> 
> Since Wyndham will take back their product (and, in certain cases, buy it back),  there is no need to pay anyone to get rid of a Wyndham timeshare. As a result, the timeshare relief companies don’t get much Wyndham and Therefore very few Wyndham contracts show up on eBay
> 
> At least that’s this former owners analysis


As supply goes down prices seem to be easing upward. Resales usually bottom in price between November-January. 
Are prices rebounding faster than what you’ve seen in past years ?  Prices seem to be going up fast lately


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## ronparise (Feb 16, 2018)

I not watching eBay any more so I can’t answer your question. I think you are right. There is a seasonal change in the supply/ demand relationship.  The bigger question is; why?  What causes the change in supply and demand?



In the past here’s what I think was happening; Prices  went up when Wyndham was buying (Ovation and other means)  eBay supply was downand 
And prices went down when Wyndham wasn’t buying (eBay supply was up)

I know of several big players that made a lot of money buying when prices were down and selling when prices were up.  I sold to some anonymous LLC that I think was a front for Wyndham The LLC  bought in the summer and didn’t buy in the winter


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## kukenan (Feb 17, 2018)

Only 3 Club Wyndham Access contracts selling on ebay right now, last year were lots (10, 20, 30) of contracs for sale. Very effective strategy for Wyn, they are selling good at developer prices, and buying for nothing (Ovation) or very cheap on eBay TUG, RedWeek, megarenters.

Maybe in the future will be hard to find a CWP or CWA resale contracts.


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## Braindead (Feb 17, 2018)

Prices are definitely very high for this time of year or anytime for that matter
282,000 point CWA contract on eBay 
$2,050.00 current bid
Plus $849.00 closing and transfer
$2,899.00 currently and auction doesn’t end until tomorrow night. Already over $10.00 per thousand points


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## md8287 (Feb 17, 2018)

A good time to sell it appears!


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## Railman83 (Feb 17, 2018)

md8287 said:


> A good time to sell it appears!



If you look close enough you can find some small contracts, but the big stuff appears to be gone.  

Disney takes back 7-8% rofl and the budget for it and will usually run out before end of fiscal year.   Ovation has lower outlays of course, but their budget is not unlimited, and the demand to unload is high, and they don’t want to carry more inventory than they could sell.   

I suspect that Ovation is a multi year program that will expand and contract in proportion to sales.

If, for example, we go into a resession, they would be overwhelmed with foreclosures and Ovation demand, and prices will drop.


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## Railman83 (Feb 18, 2018)

It has come to this:

Bought a 105k Midtown 45 for $500 Buy it now, and $450 closing.

The mfs work out to 5.27 or so, but even so a bit of a premium considering 105K ARP at midtown is so small as to be functionally worthless.

There are a couple of auctions that had promise but are already on a higher price trajectory.

Sigh.   I think I’m done buying until next recession.


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## dgalati (Feb 19, 2018)

The resale prices are still 10-20 times less then what Wyndham sells them for. Ovations sets the price at $0.00 If that's what they are willing to pay why would anyone else pay more?


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## dgalati (Feb 19, 2018)

Railman83 said:


> It has come to this:
> 
> Bought a 105k Midtown 45 for $500 Buy it now, and $450 closing.
> 
> ...


 I offered $500 with seller paying all closing. The seller was not real sure on the closing process and thought TUG would do closing for $150. The 5.27 MF was including the $131 program fee.


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## Braindead (Feb 19, 2018)

dgalati said:


> The resale prices are still 10-20 times less then what Wyndham sells them for. Ovations sets the price at $0.00 If that's what they are willing to pay why would anyone else pay more?


A CWA 282,000 point contract sold last night on eBay for almost $16.00 per thousand points.
Was Wyndham the end buyer ? Who knows.
If you have a contract bought from Wyndham and Wyndham gives you 3 years of points with no MFs
If your MFs were $5.00 per thousand points. Wyndham just paid you $15.00 per thousand points with no closing or transfer cost.
If you own a qualifying contract and will use the 3 years of points Ovation is almost always the way to go
Wyndham does pay more than $.00   What’s the max they are willing to pay ? Who knows?


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## Railman83 (Feb 19, 2018)

dgalati said:


> I offered $500 with seller paying all closing. The seller was not real sure on the closing process and thought TUG would do closing for $150. The 5.27 MF was including the $131 program fee.


Yes, not to sophisticated I told him I’d pay $500 and closing and $150 toward transfer and the recommended LT which will likely be $$75 more.

I had to go back and forth to determine she was including flat $131 program fee and had no other points; she was talking brackets and such to determine my cost would be about $553 vs $623.


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## dgalati (Feb 19, 2018)

Braindead said:


> A CWA 282,000 point contract sold last night on eBay for almost $16.00 per thousand points.
> Was Wyndham the end buyer ? Who knows.
> If you have a contract bought from Wyndham and Wyndham gives you 3 years of points with no MFs
> If your MFs were $5.00 per thousand points. Wyndham just paid you $15.00 per thousand points with no closing or transfer cost.
> ...


Yes you are correct Wyndham only offers the 3 years free use if you bought developer. Resale contracts they offer no free use and any existing reservations will be canceled.


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## Braindead (Feb 19, 2018)

dgalati said:


> Yes you are correct Wyndham only offers the 3 years free use if you bought developer. Resale contracts they offer no free use and any existing reservations will be canceled.


We shouldn’t kid ourselves on why Wyndham takes so long to transfer resale contracts.
Most resale sellers would be better off going through Ovation also to stop MFs quicker and no closing- transfer cost
Wyndham is trying to get even the scam upfront fee exit companies to just go through Ovation instead of selling on eBay.


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## Railman83 (Feb 19, 2018)

One of the sites I used to browse frequently was myresortnetwork because they had larger contracts and generally the prices matched reality.   Mostly realtors and timeshare disposal guys and a few individual.

By my estimation the inventory on that site (for desirable contracts) has dropped close to nothing, with zero inventory for resorts that used to have a dozen listings.   Perhaps they were doing spring cleaning of ads, but sure seems like it’s 90% gone.


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## dgalati (Feb 19, 2018)

Railman83 said:


> Yes, not to sophisticated I told him I’d pay $500 and closing and $150 toward transfer and the recommended LT which will likely be $$75 more.
> 
> I had to go back and forth to determine she was including flat $131 program fee and had no other points; she was talking brackets and such to determine my cost would be about $553 vs $623.





Braindead said:


> We shouldn’t kid ourselves on why Wyndham takes so long to transfer resale contracts.
> Most resale sellers would be better off going through Ovation also to stop MFs quicker and no closing- transfer cost
> Wyndham is trying to get even the scam upfront fee exit companies to just go through Ovation instead of selling on eBay.


Agreed Wyndham has made it harder anyone to buy and sell these deeds.


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## Braindead (Feb 27, 2018)

Wow! On eBay  a CWA 105k point contract over $21.00 per thousand points and doesn’t end until tomorrow afternoon
Current bid $1,375.00 plus $849.00 closing and transfer = $2,224.00
Glad I bought the last few years!!


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## kukenan (Feb 27, 2018)

dgalati said:


> Agreed Wyndham has made it harder anyone to buy and sell these deeds.



It's clever, and CWA is the perfect way to sell all those white/low season deeds, Wyndham is getting back almost everything through Ovation at $0 and creating points including everything into CWA.

Other chains only takes back or ROFR Platinum/Gold weeks because they know they can sell them at higher prices, Wyndham can sell whatever season weeks packed as CWA at developer prices.


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## CO skier (Feb 28, 2018)

Braindead said:


> Wow! On eBay  a CWA 105k point contract over $21.00 per thousand points and doesn’t end until tomorrow afternoon
> Current bid $1,375.00 plus $849.00 closing and transfer = $2,224.00
> Glad I bought the last few years!!


WOW!  On EBay 400,00 CWA points sold for $4/1000.  Closing costs Free!  Transfer costs paid by seller!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/400-000-PO...096485?hash=item4d6a12c3e5:g:eZYAAOSwjC9ZhLb3

Just as CWA has sold, on average, for at least the last 5 years. 

Welcome to EBay.


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## Braindead (Feb 28, 2018)

CO skier said:


> WOW!  On EBay 400,00 CWA points sold for $4/1000.  Closing costs Free!  Transfer costs paid by seller!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/400-000-PO...096485?hash=item4d6a12c3e5:g:eZYAAOSwjC9ZhLb3
> 
> ...


That was December 2017.
Something has been happening in the last 30-45 days. Wyndham buying ?
The seller makes a difference on price. I see that all the time.
When was the last time you seen a CWA contract sell for over $21.00 per thousand points on eBay.  They were always a dime a dozen and cheaper than low MF contracts. CWA selling for $4.00 per thousand was the normal or average price
Yea I’ll say WOW again because that is simply the highest priced CWA contract I’ve ever seen on eBay.


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## Dave Landry (Feb 28, 2018)

Braindead said:


> That was December 2017.
> Something has been happening in the last 30-45 days. Wyndham buying ?
> The seller makes a difference on price. I see that all the time.
> When was the last time you seen a CWA contract sell for over $21.00 per thousand points on eBay.  They were always a dime a dozen and cheaper than low MF contracts. CWA selling for $4.00 per thousand was the normal or average price
> Yea I’ll say WOW again because that is simply the highest priced CWA contract I’ve ever seen on eBay.


I noticed the rise in price start with the lower maintenance fee deeds when we started looking to purchase last year.  If prices are rising it's only good news to those who already own should they decide to get rid of them!


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## Roger830 (Feb 28, 2018)

Braindead said:


> Wow! On eBay  a CWA 105k point contract over $21.00 per thousand points and doesn’t end until tomorrow afternoon
> Current bid $1,375.00 plus $849.00 closing and transfer = $2,224.00
> Glad I bought the last few years!!



I can't find this one anymore, but last night when I looked at it, there were 5 bidders with about 64 bids.

The second bidder had many bids with only 2 feedbacks. The top bidder had one bid placed about a week ago with 0 feedbacks.

What happened to snipping? I suspect that those bidders don't have a clue on how ebay functions.


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## Braindead (Feb 28, 2018)

It’s the next Wyndham contract to end. I can still see it
Last night the bid was $1,375.00 today it’s upto $2,025.00 over $27.00 per thousand
It might very well be a couple of inexperienced buyers. Sure don’t think it’s insider bidding for the seller at that price.
Anything goes on eBay.


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## kukenan (Feb 28, 2018)

Roger830 said:


> I can't find this one anymore, but last night when I looked at it, there were 5 bidders with about 64 bids.
> 
> The second bidder had many bids with only 2 feedbacks. The top bidder had one bid placed about a week ago with 0 feedbacks.
> 
> What happened to snipping? I suspect that those bidders don't have a clue on how ebay functions.



Or just pushing the price up


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## Roger830 (Feb 28, 2018)

Braindead said:


> It’s the next Wyndham contract to end. I can still see it
> Last night the bid was $1,375.00 today it’s upto $2,025.00 over $27.00 per thousand
> It might very well be a couple of inexperienced buyers. Sure don’t think it’s insider bidding for the seller at that price.
> Anything goes on eBay.



I found it on my tablet, I couldn't find it on my desktop.

I see that 0 feedback had put in a week old bid at $2000 and we now have a new bidder with 3 feedbacks at $2025.

Apparently that's where the market is for them. I noticed that in the sold listings there was a 105,000 that went for over $1400 in a private auction recently.


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## Roger830 (Feb 28, 2018)

Looking through the sold listings, I noticed that two big National Harbor contracts went for less than $10 per thousand, so low mf might not be the driver. 

It seems that there might be increased interest in CWA by new players.

Last week at Sea Gardens, a fixed week resort, a few owners were complaining that there is less inventory at 10 months than in the past. 
Of course they were told that previously member owned units were now in CWA and they need CWA to book at 13 months.
Perhaps that type of thing has generated more demand for CWA than other types of contracts.

I can't book my converted fixed week online. It looks like the phones will be busy at 13 months for fixed week resorts.


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## Dave Landry (Feb 28, 2018)

Luckily for us we usually make last minute plans anyways so don't need ARP anywhere.

We had booked a room at Panama city Beach for the 3rd and 4th this weekend but....
Just scored a room starting this weekend in Daytona so we are going to extend our vacation. 

Now I am going to offer the Panama to friends on Facebook if I find any are interested or close enough


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## 55plus (Mar 2, 2018)

Checkout 710,000 Wyndham points on TUG Marketplace Bargain Basement: https://tug2.com/timeshare-classifi...&AdTypePoints=True&PriceMin=0.01&PriceMax=500


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## Arimaas (Mar 2, 2018)

55plus said:


> Checkout 710,000 Wyndham points on TUG Marketplace Bargain Basement: https://tug2.com/timeshare-classifi...&AdTypePoints=True&PriceMin=0.01&PriceMax=500


You know, for the amount of points, what little I know, those maintenance fees don’t look so bad. $0.61/1000 ?


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## north (Mar 2, 2018)

I think the maintenance fees are per month.


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## Jan M. (Mar 2, 2018)

Arimaas said:


> You know, for the amount of points, what little I know, those maintenance fees don’t look so bad. $0.61/1000 ?



Those maintenance fees of $431.32 a month come out to $5175.84 annually, $7.29 per thousand points. That is very high. Our maintenance fees of $5.02 per thousand are pretty good but not the lowest. That same amount of points, 710,000, costs us $1608.52 a year or $134.04 a month less.


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## Arimaas (Mar 2, 2018)

north said:


> I think the maintenance fees are per month.



Yes. No way it's annual at that rate. Still doesn't look too bad.


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## 55plus (Mar 2, 2018)

Arimaas said:


> Yes. No way it's annual at that rate. Still doesn't look too bad.


Total HOA: $4764.10 + Program Fee: $411.80 = Total Annual $5175.90  ($431.32 Monthly)


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## Arimaas (Mar 2, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> Those maintenance fees of $431.32 a month come out to $5175.84 annually, $7.29 per thousand points. That is very high. Our maintenance fees of $5.02 per thousand are pretty good but not the lowest. That same amount of points, 710,000, costs us $1608.52 a year or $134.04 a month less.


Guess my math is off. lol.  I guess Rutgers university should take back their engineering degree lol. 

I just got a 154k unit with $74 per month ($888 annual) fees. If my math is correct this time,  that’s $5.77 per thousand.  How does that pan out in Wyndham world? Decent? 

Also I’ve noticed that Atlantic City has high MFs. Any idea why that is? There doesn’t seem to be a lot of property there to take care of compared to say Bonet Creek? Could it be New Jersey property tax??


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## 55plus (Mar 2, 2018)

It's probably due to property tax and the Atlantic City Boardwalk location.


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## Arimaas (Mar 2, 2018)

55plus said:


> It's probably due to property tax and the Atlantic City Boardwalk location.



Has anyone actually stayed there for a week? Curious as to thoughts.  AC is pretty dumpy.


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## Roger830 (Mar 2, 2018)

I cancelled there after reading reviews on TripAdvisor.


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## 55plus (Mar 2, 2018)

I stayed there several times. Overall Atlantic City is dumpy like Las Vegas, but along the coast/boardwalk, it's really nice. Las Vegas has it's dumpy area, but the tourists areas are well kept. There are casinos, entertainment, shows, amusement rides, etc., on the boardwalk. The resort is right off the boardwalk. See: https://www.travelchannel.com/videos/atlantic-city-boardwalk-0187137 and 



 to get an idea. It's worth a trip.


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## Arimaas (Mar 2, 2018)

55plus said:


> I stayed there several times. Overall Atlantic City is dumpy like Las Vegas, but along the coast/boardwalk, it's really nice. Las Vegas has it's dumpy area, but the tourists areas are well kept. There are casinos, entertainment, shows, amusement rides, etc., on the boardwalk. The resort is right off the boardwalk. See: https://www.travelchannel.com/videos/atlantic-city-boardwalk-0187137 and
> 
> 
> 
> to get an idea. It's worth a trip.



I’ll keep it in the back of my mind next trip to ac. I used to go once a year and stay at harrahs by the marina.

Does Wyndham offer last minute cash deal like Hilton does (called “open season” in Hilton?) I think it’s cash booking within 30 days.  They actually aren’t so economical these days on the Hilton side.


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## Railman83 (Mar 3, 2018)

Arimaas said:


> Has anyone actually stayed there for a week? Curious as to thoughts.  AC is pretty dumpy.


It’s a nice place in an increasingly ugly city.


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## Railman83 (Mar 3, 2018)

Arimaas said:


> I’ll keep it in the back of my mind next trip to ac. I used to go once a year and stay at harrahs by the marina.
> 
> Does Wyndham offer last minute cash deal like Hilton does (called “open season” in Hilton?) I think it’s cash booking within 30 days.  They actually aren’t so economical these days on the Hilton side.


Rci has one last call deals and low priced extra vacations on AC and Jersey shore if you are flexible


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## OutSkiing (Mar 3, 2018)

Arimaas said:


> Has anyone actually stayed there for a week? Curious as to thoughts.  AC is pretty dumpy.


We stayed there and felt it the resort was pretty nice. AC is a little old fashioned .. boardwalk is like stepping back in time. Not your glitzy new resort area .. lots of little hot dog / pizza / gift shop like joints along the boardwalk.

Bob


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## Arimaas (Mar 3, 2018)

OutSkiing said:


> We stayed there and felt it the resort was pretty nice. AC is a little old fashioned .. boardwalk is like stepping back in time. Not your glitzy new resort area .. lots of little hot dog / pizza / gift shop like joints along the boardwalk.
> 
> Bob




Yeah. I guess the “boardwalk empire” days are long over


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## jlands (Mar 6, 2018)

Interesting trends on recent eBay auctions. Pretty rapid increase in prices. All of these are at Bali Hai:

Feb 13: 308k EEY for $2,074 ($1,775 bid + $299 transfer) = $13.5 per 1k

Mar 1: 325k annual for $5,124 ($3,756 bid + $718.98 for 6 months MF + $350 closing costs + $299 transfer fee) = $15.8 per 1k

Mar 5: 308k annual for $6,065 ($4,700 bid + $715.50 for 6 months MF + $350 closing costs + $299 transfer fee) = $19.7 per 1k


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 6, 2018)

I used to drive down and burn points at Skyline Towers. Even took my 89yo aunt there. She liked getting out of her senior building and she remembers AC at its PRIME. The building is nice, the hangtag staff likes me and the sales staff are the PIAs like every other Wyndham property. 
I prefer going up to Shawnee and using my owner's day priviledges ... all w/o the sales staff sweethearts... when I am in the area.

Shawnee is almost all converted fixed weeks. MFs per week are the same but when you overlay points and use those points value to divide into the MFs... PRIME season ratios are very good for those owners ... LOW season ratios are a BAD deal ... but that is one of the reasons Wyndham LOVES CWA ... it hides/buries that bad ratio in the fine print.


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## Railman83 (Mar 6, 2018)

jlands said:


> Interesting trends on recent eBay auctions. Pretty rapid increase in prices. All of these are at Bali Hai:
> 
> Feb 13: 308k EEY for $2,074 ($1,775 bid + $299 transfer) = $13.5 per 1k
> 
> ...



Shockingly, just a week ago I bought a Bali Hai 375K for $1000 plus $600 closing and transfer from A Timedhare Broker Inc as I was responding to another of their ads on TUG.   Good deal if it goes through.


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## Railman83 (Mar 10, 2018)

I see more inventory on EBay but the prices are very high.  A 210K Waikiki Beach walk for $1890 plus $850 in closing.


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## CO skier (May 26, 2018)

Going into the summer season, there is a fair amount of supply selling on EBay for some reasonable prices from a buyer's view.  There are quite a number of "Best Offers" accepted.

These are a few of the bargains at bid prices.

500,000 Club Access  $5.90/1000
https://www.ebay.com/itm/500-000-An...928826?hash=item1cabd4b77a:g:h0MAAOSwax5Y1ukc

506,000 Club Access  $3.90/1000 all in
https://www.ebay.com/itm/506-000-An...893093?hash=item441d82e2a5:g:heYAAOSw~6dayUu9

801,000 Club Access  $4.75 all in
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wyndham-Po...009787?hash=item1caba82cfb:g:cPwAAOSwb-tanIyx

154,000 Grand Desert  $3.25/1000
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-GRAND-DESERT-RESORT-154-000-POINTS-LAS-VEGAS-NEVADA-TIMESHARE-/183231854246?hash=item2aa97836a6:g:Q4gAAOSwAvJW-~lm&nma=true&si=YypFKrQ9XRhTftTb9%2Bv%2Br3v%2FKI4%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

126,000 Grand Desert $8.67/1000  (This shows how EBay pricing can be all over the map; "comps" don't mean much on EBay.  Someone overpaid, but maybe it was just what they wanted.)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-PO...448963?hash=item1cac19b043:g:VpsAAOSwpoNanIzE

154,000 Waikiki Beach  $14.25/1000  (Which is about average for low maintenance fee Hawaii resorts)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-WA...303082?hash=item3b0d5d84aa:g:ZIIAAOSwk-9Zf5nh

Royal Vista $5.20/1000 all in
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-RO...403028?hash=item3d6465df94:g:rk4AAOSwvHRa3TAb

Lots more, and this is different than years past.  Usually prices are headed up by this time of year.  Today is as good a time as any to snipe an auction and pick up a bargain.


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## Railman83 (May 26, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Going into the summer season, there is a fair amount of supply selling on EBay for some reasonable prices from a buyer's view.  There are quite a number of "Best Offers" accepted.
> 
> These are a few of the bargains at bid prices.
> 
> ...


I am officially out of market with one last 375k contract to close in 2 months or so for a total of 1850k at a rate of 5.4 per 1000.

Fourteen contacts in the last 18 months and I’ve only been delivered wrong in two cases:   Flagstaff 105 that cost $8 more per mo than advertised and a majestic sun that was delivered as a Club Destin (same fees) even though the estoppel letter was posted in EBay auction.

I also have 3 Solid weeks (Christmas) of 4br at Massanutten for trading and 240 DVC points for renting as cost offset.   So my net cost will be $1000 per month or about a luxury car payment.   For those who doubt the value of timeshares, this is what those points allow me to do:

In the next two years I’ll use half points for travel and half to point deposit forward to my retirement beginning at end of 2021.   I will work these off and push less and less forward, so starting Jan 2022, for two month winter I will be in Hawaii with stops before and after in So Cal and Vegas.   For two months July and August I will travel the eastern US. 

 I will always have at least a 1br with kitchen and can likely stretch both periods a week or two on either end with judicious trades or last calls.  My total cost will work out to about $90 per day. 

There is no other way this could be done.  I own a 2br vacation rental at a moderate resort in PCB and a summer week rents for $2000 all fees and tax.  A winter week is $800.   I am one of the lowest priced in my resort and the cost to rent the same weeks would be 25k, or about 2.5 times what it costs to stay at my choice of resorts at times of my choosing.

My conclusion is that timeshares, if done right, are an incredible value.  The engineering trade off for better and cheaper accommodations than other lodging options is that you have to be flexible and able to plan ahead.   In other words, you are earning a massive premium for your own time and effort.

My only advice for those seeking similar retirement is that a) you stay as much in one system as possible b) don’t buy anything you would have a problem giving away later, and c) buy in segments that you can pare off to match reduced travel.   I violated these rules a bit with some free contracts, but in net i own nothing that someone wouldn’t take, and if pressed I could rent for MFs or better.

In the meantime as I await retirement I can take a couple of weeks vacation a year and treat my posse to 3br weekends every month at Nat Harbor, Old Town, Massanutten, et al.

All of this is possible because of TUG.   The knowledge gained here is, by my estimation, worth about $15-20K per year in travel.   You might come here ignorant and behind curve with a bad purchase, but if you read TUG forums every day you will not leave here that way and can largely rehabilitate all but the worst situations.

My three best purchases were in TUG forums and I got three for free here.  EBay has been solid as well.   My big regret is my first $900 in resale purchases were before I got smart enough to buy right. 

This is a very, very, long way of saying that the $15 spent on TUG was the best $15 I’ve spent in my life.

So hat tip to TugBrian, we are all better for the community you have built!


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## bendadin (May 26, 2018)

Club Destin is an affiliate. I have an affiliate that is SO much cheaper MF (same area.) It might not be such a bad thing.

I've just started a new search. I am looking for WBC. Right not I'd take anything but in a perfect world, I am hoping that someone is ready to dump an odd year contract. Keeping up with EOY just takes too much thinking. lol


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## capital city (May 26, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Going into the summer season, there is a fair amount of supply selling on EBay for some reasonable prices from a buyer's view.  There are quite a number of "Best Offers" accepted.
> 
> These are a few of the bargains at bid prices.
> 
> ...



I ended with the 801,000 club access. After asking a couple of questions I was told all 801,000 points for 2018 are still available. With the Wyndham wait time I will probably only have 3 at most 4 monthly payments and all the points. As long as I can make good use of them I think I came out really well especially considering where we were 4 months ago with contract cost. Makes me start to believe the theory on Wyndham buying back contracts. Something or someone was driving up the price there for a few months.


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## ronparise (May 26, 2018)

capital city said:


> I ended with the 801,000 club access. After asking a couple of questions I was told all 801,000 points for 2018 are still available. With the Wyndham wait time I will probably only have 3 at most 4 monthly payments and all the points. As long as I can make good use of them I think I came out really well especially considering where we were 4 months ago with contract cost. Makes me start to believe the theory on Wyndham buying back contracts. Something or someone was driving up the price there for a few months.



Believe it  we used to buy on ebay and turn right around and sell to Wyndham at a profit.  There was a short time a few years ago when we drove prices up to $15/1000 points


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## Avislo (May 26, 2018)

OutSkiing said:


> We stayed there and felt it the resort was pretty nice. AC is a little old fashioned .. boardwalk is like stepping back in time. Not your glitzy new resort area .. lots of little hot dog / pizza / gift shop like joints along the boardwalk.
> 
> Bob



Wyndham Skyline Tower is a nice resort just off the ocean.  Some of the Casinos are nearby.  Have not been there is awhile, do not know if a few of them that closed up shop are re-opened by someone or what the buildings are currently used for.


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## CCdad (May 26, 2018)

Several were auctions listed by the same closing company that were bid up in the extreme.

Look up the insane price paid recently for a larger BHV points contract. Then check out the other auctions that had completed within a couple weeks of the BHV one. 

Someone ran up the bids and probably never won one Wyndham contract. Some of the closed contracts were later relisted.


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## CO skier (May 27, 2018)

capital city said:


> I ended with the 801,000 club access. After asking a couple of questions I was told all 801,000 points for 2018 are still available. With the Wyndham wait time I will probably only have 3 at most 4 monthly payments and all the points. As long as I can make good use of them I think I came out really well especially considering where we were 4 months ago with contract cost.


Killer deal, and there are still many more out there like it.



capital city said:


> Makes me start to believe the theory on Wyndham buying back contracts. Something or someone was driving up the price there for a few months.


Why?  EBay pricing for Wyndham points has been seasonally cyclical for the last 10 years.  If Ovation is having any effect, why are there so many reasonably priced Club Wyndham contracts available on EBay, TUG Marketplace, TUG bargain bin, and other sources?


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## CO skier (May 27, 2018)

ronparise said:


> Believe it  we used to buy on ebay and turn right around and sell to Wyndham at a profit.  There was a short time a few years ago when we drove prices up to $15/1000 points


When?  Certainly not on "everyday" contracts.

There have been $1 Wyndham UDI points timeshare available since 2008.  The low maintenance fee contracts have always sold at a premium, even up to $15-$20 per 1000, and they still sell in this range; there was no "driving up prices on these contracts" or any other contracts that I could see.  There are always outliers, as noted in post #69 , but this is not the "market".


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## chriskre (May 27, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Going into the summer season, there is a fair amount of supply selling on EBay for some reasonable prices from a buyer's view.  There are quite a number of "Best Offers" accepted.
> 
> These are a few of the bargains at bid prices.
> 
> ...



That royal vista was nice for $100 
Glad I didn’t see it!    


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ronparise (May 27, 2018)

CO skier said:


> When?  Certainly not on "everyday" contracts.
> 
> There have been $1 Wyndham UDI points timeshare available since 2008.  The low maintenance fee contracts have always sold at a premium, even up to $15-$20 per 1000, and they still sell in this range; there was no "driving up prices on these contracts" or any other contracts that I could see.  There are always outliers, as noted in post #69 , but this is not the "market".




I think thats a good point... You didnt see everything, and perhaps you saw nothing 

There were three years when I was buying and selling 20 million points a year.  I (along with a few others doing the same thing)  was the market.  When Wyndham was buying, prices went up, and when Wyndham stopped buying, prices went down.  The best example was when CWA contracts went up to $20/1000 and then crashed to the point you couldnt give them away. It all had to do with wyndham's repurchase program


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## Jan M. (May 27, 2018)

ronparise said:


> I think thats a good point... You didnt see everything, and perhaps you saw nothing
> 
> There were three years when I was buying and selling 20 million points a year.  I (along with a few others doing the same thing)  was the market.  When Wyndham was buying, prices went up, and when Wyndham stopped buying, prices went down.  The best example was when CWA contracts went up to $20/1000 and then crashed to the point you couldnt give them away. It all had to do with wyndham's repurchase program



You would be aware of some things very few other people, and probably no one else here on TUG, would because you were involved in it. You knew you had a market, what your buyer typically paid and what was a good price for you to pay when you were the buyer. Anyone who followed your story after August 2016 knows you are a shrewd businessman. Things may have changed in the year? you've no longer been a player in that game but you have the experience to know what you're seeing in the market, to still be able to make an accurate  assessment.


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## schoolmarm (May 28, 2018)

From "pool talk" with another owner at National Harbor this week...they said that their sales person said that Wyndham has a team of 6-8 people who are buying up the resales on eBay and other places. Same salesperson said that Wyndham has some resorts that have a "right of first refusal".  

Take the first statement with a grain of salt, as I do not believe the second statement is true.


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## Avislo (May 28, 2018)

How many resorts Wyndham has that have a right to first refusal, I do not know.  I have a Towers on Grove deeded that has a right of first refusal in it.  Thanks for passing on the information.


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## markb53 (May 28, 2018)

schoolmarm said:


> From "pool talk" with another owner at National Harbor this week...they said that their sales person said that Wyndham has a team of 6-8 people who are buying up the resales on eBay and other places. Same salesperson said that Wyndham has some resorts that have a "right of first refusal".
> 
> Take the first statement with a grain of salt, as I do not believe the second statement is true.



My CWA contract has a right of first refusal in it. I would assume all CWA do.


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## bendadin (May 28, 2018)

markb53 said:


> My CWA contract has a right of first refusal in it. I would assume all CWA do.



I got 400k CWA for $1. If any contract would have triggered ROFR, it would have been that one


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## markb53 (May 28, 2018)

bendadin said:


> I got 400k CWA for $1. If any contract would have triggered ROFR, it would have been that one



Doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Just means Wyndham wasn’t buying at the time. As Ron said they weren’t always in a buying mode. I remember hearing back a few few years that CWA could take longer to close even though there was no dead involved because it had to go through the ROFR process.


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## CO skier (May 30, 2018)

ronparise said:


> I think thats a good point... You didnt see everything, and perhaps you saw nothing
> 
> There were three years when I was buying and selling 20 million points a year.  I (along with a few others doing the same thing)  was the market.  When Wyndham was buying, prices went up, and when Wyndham stopped buying, prices went down.  The best example was when CWA contracts went up to $20/1000 and then crashed to the point you couldnt give them away. It all had to do with wyndham's repurchase program



I would be very interested to see any documentation of CWA contacts selling for $20/1000 on a regular basis – maybe a month or two during the height of the buying season, but for a year or more, I doubt it. That was certainly never the case on Ebay. Ebay is not the "market", but it is the most transparent and accessible market.


I do not follow Ebay Wyndham timeshare pricing on a regular basis, but whenever there is a post about a "Jump In Wyndham Prices" I look at the recent Ebay pricing history, and have never reached that conclusion. I never saw where CWA contracts were selling on Ebay for $20/1000 on a regular basis. I did see where CWA contracts were selling for $5/1000 to $10/1000 on a regular basis, and that continues today. It goes all the way back to 2013.

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/royal-vista-195k-udi-ebay-sale-up-tick-in-value.198191/

EBay pricing is not that much different now than it was then.


I followed the current "Slim pickings on [Wyndham] resale" post to see if anything has changed over the last 5 years, and now 3 months later, EBay pricing is back to the low end of the cyclical range, as posted in #69 and there is considerably more supply than 3 months ago. If Wyndham were (or is) buying, wouldn’t they be buying during the busy summer season to replace sold inventory? Why are prices headed lower versus 3 months ago?

I do not see everything, and I may see nothing, but I continue to see what I have seen for the last 5 years. If you don’t like the Wyndham pricing today, wait a few months, and you may find it for a few hundred or a few thousand dollars less.

Just in this thread, a CWA sale was noted at $16/1000 in post #32 well after the changes to the Wyndham guidelines. Does that one sale represent the "market" for Wyndham? I am sure that brokers regularly sell Wyndham contracts (and not just CWA contracts) for $30+/1000; is that the "market price"? Brokers are probably still selling at the same price, while EBay is at $3.90/1000 to $5.90/1000 for CWA and Best Offers for other contracts and $1 plus closing and transfer for others. Which pricing represents "the market"?

There is not a lot of transparency to determine the "market price" for Wyndham contracts, or to make determinations if prices are headed up, or not. For now looking at EBay sales, apparently not, just like in 2013 before Ovation.


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## ronparise (May 30, 2018)

CO skier said:


> I would be very interested to see any documentation of CWA contacts selling for $20/1000 on a regular basis – maybe a month or two during the height of the buying season, but for a year or more, I doubt it. That was certainly never the case on Ebay. Ebay is not the "market", but it is the most transparent and accessible market.
> 
> 
> I do not follow Ebay Wyndham timeshare pricing on a regular basis, but whenever there is a post about a "Jump In Wyndham Prices" I look at the recent Ebay pricing history, and have never reached that conclusion. I never saw where CWA contracts were selling on Ebay for $20/1000 on a regular basis. I did see where CWA contracts were selling for $5/1000 to $10/1000 on a regular basis, and that continues today. It goes all the way back to 2013.
> ...


Im sure you are right

What I remember is just that, a few months. Wyndham didnt often buy CWA contracts so when they did there was some comoetition for them...If not $20 it was $ 15.    I am getting older and my memory is not what it used to be.. what I remember most clearly was the swing in the other direction, because thats when I bought

You are missing the point Im trying to make here, and this is the first time Ive revealed this. And the actual price has nothing to do with it. and the point is this. 

Wyndham routinely bought back contracts, The usual criteria were, 300000 points or more, UDI contracts but sometimes we could get rid of CWA and converted fixed weeks. and smaller contracts,  Although I think the weeks and small contracts were just a concession, I dont remember ever getting paid for them. I never dealt directly with wyndham. I  knew a guy who worked with Wyndhams agents. so I never knew what exactly wyndham was paying.  There were two ahead of me getting paid for what I could deliver

I bought on ebay and the price I paid varied according to what wyndham was buying.... Thats a fact


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## chriskre (May 30, 2018)

ronparise said:


> Im sure you are right
> 
> What I remember is just that, a few months. Wyndham didnt often buy CWA contracts so when they did there was some comoetition for them...If not $20 it was $ 15.    I am getting older and my memory is not what it used to be.. what I remember most clearly was the swing in the other direction, because thats when I bought
> 
> ...



So you were bird dogging.  
Nice gig, right from your computer.
I like it.  That's the kind of real estate that's fun.  
Good for you to figure it all out.


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## Dave Landry (May 30, 2018)

I also wonder if prices might fluctuate because of a group of people who learn about resales at around the same time by seeing someone's Facebook post after having attended a meeting? Almost any bid on Ebay would seem like a bargain after being offered a contract for 148/1000 or more. Then again there may be no rhyme or reason to price fluctuations except for who is in the market to purchase and how much they are willing to pay. If I have been reading correctly what all of you have been stating over the past couple years in different posts, Wyndham has never really publicly announced they are buying back contracts except through the Ovations program. And they probably would not want to as they obviously would want to get them for as low a price as possible also. 

I am extremely grateful for this forum and all the great information in it. I am also very thankful of the help Ron has given me when I understood less than nothing about timeshares enabling me to purchase a small contract that I feel I got for a fair price and am happy with. I think the end game is won if you find something you are willing and able to pay for that works to your benefit! There are many with VIP status who are happy with their purchase and many who are happy with the bargains of resale! 

I am definitely watching the different sales venues lately and if the right deal comes along may purchase more.


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## Avislo (May 30, 2018)

Maybe the name of the contact and how to contact them would be useful to some.


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## Dave Landry (May 30, 2018)

Avislo said:


> Maybe the name of the contact and how to contact them would be useful to some.




From earlier posts I don't believe he is allowed to share any of that information.


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## Avislo (May 30, 2018)

Wyndham call center gave the name of Timeshare Broker Associates LLC, 877 624-6889 if someone wants to sell a timeshare.  Timeshare Broker Associates LLC indicates they are designated a preferred Wyndham re-seller by Wyndham.


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## ronparise (May 30, 2018)

Avislo said:


> Wyndham call center gave the name of Timeshare Broker Associates LLC, 877 624-6889 if someone wants to sell a timeshare.  Timeshare Broker Associates LLC indicates they are designated a preferred Wyndham re-seller by Wyndham.



Good information but it’s a so what. Here’s why

When I was doing this there were 3 brokers that identified themselves as preferred Wyndham resellers: 1) RPMI 2) Mike Murphy and 3) Judy Kosloski (I think) 


As I said in my post above I never dealt directly with the agent that represented Wyndham. I did talk  to each of the above three and they all denied that Wyndham was buying back. I had to deal with a middle man who prepared the new deeds to some LLC and paid me. As time went in I figured out that Wyndham was the ultimate buyer and I’m sure that RPMI was part of at least a few of the deals I did

And by the way I’m pretty sure wyndham is still doing this but through different brokers perhaps the one named in the post I quoted. But I don’t think you could do it on a grand scale. I’m almost positive  that I if I had something to sell to day I could sell it back to Wyndham. With a couple of phone calls I could figure out the current path back to the mother ship

But here’s the thing. When I was doing this I was paying as much as a $15/1000 points and selling for $0-$5/1000 points and I still made a profit because I had stripped 3 years of points from the contract  and paid as little as 3 months mf.  Turned out Wyndham didn’t like that, (in spite of the fact that they resold this stuff for as much as $200/1000 points) so they shut me down,  got new preferred resale brokers, they insist on all points being in the contract and they ended the points credit pool that made it all possible

So don’t anyone think that they can pick up where I left off


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## Avislo (May 30, 2018)

Thank-you for the information.  For anyone wanting to know the name of the LLC involved, it should be easy enough to find the owner of record.  Look at resorts Ron was known to have a interest in.  Check the county court house for Ron Parise and see who the buyer of record was and subsequent buyer of record


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## Braindead (May 30, 2018)

Avislo said:


> Thank-you for the information.  For anyone wanting to know the name of the LLC involved, it should be easy enough to find the owner of record.  Look at resorts Ron was known to have a interest in.  Check the county court house for Ron Parise and see who the buyer of record was and subsequent buyer of record


TUG now has a Private Investigator 
Avislo — Robert


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## ronparise (May 30, 2018)

If you want to sell back to Wyndham just call Ovation.  Unless you are a mega renter that they want to put out of business you won’t get paid


----------



## Railman83 (May 30, 2018)

The original post was a comment on the snapshot of availability at the time.   EBay has inventory now but other sites are still short.


----------



## Avislo (May 30, 2018)

The first poster stated "One wonders if this is all Ovation?"  It is my understanding of the program that it includes making a referral to their preferred Wyndham resellers.  I have seen very little on these re-sellers.  Ron's post was educational.  Hopefully others will pick up on this aspect and share info on these groups.


----------



## Railman83 (May 30, 2018)

Avislo said:


> The first poster stated "One wonders if this is all Ovation?"  It is my understanding of the program that it includes making a referral to their preferred Wyndham resellers.  I have seen very little on these re-sellers.  Ron's post was educational.  Hopefully others will pick up on this aspect and share info on these groups.


A big multiple dozens of ads seller on myresortnetwork is on Ron’s shortlist and they have no inventory anymore and haven’t for awhile


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## Avislo (May 31, 2018)

Thanks for the info.


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## CO skier (May 31, 2018)

ronparise said:


> Im sure you are right
> 
> What I remember is just that, a few months. Wyndham didnt often buy CWA contracts so when they did there was some comoetition for them...If not $20 it was $ 15.    I am getting older and my memory is not what it used to be.. what I remember most clearly was the swing in the other direction, because thats when I bought
> 
> ...



Confusing.



ronparise said:


> There were three years when I was buying and selling 20 million points a year.  I (along with a few others doing the same thing)  was the market.


Implies that you and others represented "the market" for at least three years.

Then it was a "few months" and for only CWA contracts.



ronparise said:


> Im sure you are right
> 
> What I remember is just that, a few months. Wyndham didnt often buy CWA contracts so when they did there was some comoetition for them...If not $20 it was $ 15.    I am getting older and my memory is not what it used to be.. what I remember most clearly was the swing in the other direction, because thats when I bought
> 
> ...



And more confusing is, "but so what?"  Wyndham is "buying" back through Ovation for zero dollars for resale contracts like yours.  And that is better than owners having to pay a PCC thousand$ to off-load the timeshare.


----------



## Jan M. (Jun 1, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Confusing.
> 
> Implies that you and others represented "the market" for at least three years.
> 
> ...



Not sure why you seem to want to discredit Ron on this or if you just have an issue with him in general. Have you followed his posts for the last several years? How many millions of points have you bought and sold in a year over a period of several years? I could see if you were saying things are different now with Ron and the other people doing what he did gone.

There has been a lot of discussion in the past about the fluctuations in the availability and cost of resale deeds and contracts. I can remember Ron and OP too advising people thinking of buying to wait when the prices were high and there wasn't much available. He had a pretty good idea based on experience what was likely to happen in the market. We have one TUG member who used to and still might track the Wyndham sales on eBay. Also if I'm remembering correctly when Ron was buying he had certain properties he would buy even at a little higher price because he had an excellent rental business going at those resorts. His other purchases were made to get large quantities of points by stripping the deeds/contracts, getting paid by point managers for the use of most of those points then dumping those deeds/contracts when they were no longer useful to him. There were others doing what Ron did including the person who mentored him and they made good enough money to make doing what they did worthwhile. And they had a contact or contacts in Wyndham who facilitated making what they did worth not only their while but also Wyndhams.

Before Wyndham had a good source of free deeds and contracts through Ovations it was sure convenient for them to have people like Ron and the others when Wyndham needed the deeds to get points to supply Club Wyndham Access and deeds at more resorts to grow Club Wyndham Access. I don't see it as a coincidence that once Ovations really took off Ron and the others doing what he did were eliminated. Wyndham no longer found them useful.


----------



## Avislo (Jun 1, 2018)

deleted.


----------



## Avislo (Jun 1, 2018)

The mega-renters are probably not gone.  Maybe some of the ones that upset Wyndham but not all.


----------



## paxsarah (Jun 1, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> Not sure why you seem to want to discredit Ron on this or if you just have an issue with him in general.



Even as a casual observer it’s been very clear over the past several years that CO has had a beef with Ron and seeks to discredit him at every turn. I won’t hazard a guess as to why, though.


----------



## CO skier (Jun 1, 2018)

paxsarah said:


> Even as a casual observer it’s been very clear over the past several years that CO has had a beef with Ron and seeks to discredit him at every turn. I won’t hazard a guess as to why, though.


Nothing against Ron Parise, personally.  I did not agree with his perspective regarding cancel/rebook in 2012 and years following or his trying to pass off stripped Wyndham contracts as bargains in 2015, or whenever it was.  It should be noted that eventually Wyndham did not agree with his perspective regarding cancel/rebook -- never thought I would see the day -- and TUG did not agree with his idea of what is a bargain.

Through it all, I had the general impression he did enjoy the banter.  Maybe it is just my perspective.


----------



## ronparise (Jun 1, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> Not sure why you seem to want to discredit Ron on this or if you just have an issue with him in general. Have you followed his posts for the last several years? How many millions of points have you bought and sold in a year over a period of several years? I could see if you were saying things are different now with Ron and the other people doing what he did gone.
> 
> There has been a lot of discussion in the past about the fluctuations in the availability and cost of resale deeds and contracts. I can remember Ron advising people thinking of buying to wait when the prices were high and there wasn't much available. He had a pretty good idea based on experience what was likely to happen in the market. We have one TUG member who used to and still might track the Wyndham sales on eBay. Also if I'm remembering correctly when Ron was buying he had certain properties he would buy even at a little higher price because he had an excellent rental business going at those resorts. His other purchases were made to get large quantities of points by stripping the deeds/contracts, getting paid by point managers for the use of those points then dumping those deeds/contracts when they were no longer useful to him. There were others doing what Ron did including the person who mentored him and they made good enough money to make doing what they did worthwhile. And they had a contact or contacts in Wyndham who facilitated making what they did worth not only their while but also Wyndhams.
> 
> Before Wyndham had a good source of free deeds and contracts through Ovations it was sure convenient for them to have people like Ron and the others when Wyndham needed the deeds to get points to supply Club Wyndham Access and deeds at more resorts to grow Club Wyndham Access. I don't see it as a coincidence that once Ovations really took off Ron and the others doing what he did were eliminated. Wyndham no longer found them useful.



Close

My “mentor” was big in another timeshare system, not Wyndham. Although I he did work with Wyndham before their previous attempt to control the megarenting  (when they stopped the owner to owner transfer of points)

Before Ovation most ebay inventory was the product of the post card companies. Wyndham owners were getting screwed by these companies, and title to lots of inventory was getting screwed up in the Viking ships. Coincidently building has slowed down and the economy had turned.  People could afford timeshares again and Wyndham didn’t have the inventory to satisfy them. The sales force needed inventory .  

What I was doing didn’t stop with Ovation . It started then. Wyndham was disappointed with the amount of inventory they got back with Ovation. So  they developed other ways to get low priced inventory. One was to appoint several preferred brokers and use them to buy back inventory.


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## wjappraise (Jun 1, 2018)

Ron shares facts.  CO shares opinions. 

I probably share more opinions than facts. 

Bottom line - Ron is a valued asset here. CO and myself - not so much.


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## chriskre (Jun 1, 2018)

ronparise said:


> What I was doing didn’t stop with Ovation . It started then. Wyndham was disappointed with the amount of inventory they got back with Ovation. So  they developed other ways to get low priced inventory. One was to appoint several preferred brokers and use them to buy back inventory.



And why were they disappointed considering how poorly they treat their owners over the years with the mandatory parking pass update crap and endless phone calls to set an appointment when you have told them no and no and no over and over again?

They wear down the average owner with updates and hoops that spoil a vacation so why would those owners just hand over what they believe was an expensive ownership for free to a company they feel has done them injustices year after year after year.  

I only own a small contract with them that I bought from a PCC on ebay in the crash of the market so for me I don't feel the pinch of being squeezed or tricked into a ridiculous scheme of overpriced vacations with never ending goal posts to get what I want.  I'm happy with my biennial and what comes with it which is to get me to Royal Vista and Bonnet Creek every year period.  

If I have no other option than to give it to Ovations in the future I don't feel like it's a big loss to me to give it back but I can understand why someone who paid $50K to Wyndham would feel like it was.  

If a TUGger wanted it then I'd be more inclined to give it to them instead if it passed ROFR.  Curious if they can take a deed from two owners giving it to each other with the current ROFR scheme they have in place?  I own at Las Cascadas.


----------



## chriskre (Jun 1, 2018)

wjappraise said:


> Ron shares facts.  CO shares opinions.
> 
> I probably share more opinions than facts.
> 
> Bottom line - Ron is a valued asset here. CO and myself are not.



Yes I agree Ron is definitely a valued asset here.
I don't get the beef with him either.

Maybe because some of his posts seems a bit egotistical but I knew his history as a real estate broker and many brokers are savvy to things that most regular folk don't understand because of their understanding of the real estate laws and also awareness of the creative real estate market.  I am just a real estate sales person but have educated myself in creative real estate financing.  I only dabble in true real estate as to me TS's have too much headache and risk and I don't like dealing with developers who set the rules and can change them at will hence my hesitation to own any large contracts with any of them.  

Keeping things manageable for me with a toe in this one and that one with biennials and small deeds works for my personal vacation needs.  I have no aspirations to be a mega renter or points broker.  Just to get me to the beach at the resorts that I want hopefully without having to exchange to get it.  I use a points broker for my DVC and I do rent my CMV UDI but that's the extent of renting that I want to deal with.  I want vacation time not more work.


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## CO skier (Jun 1, 2018)

wjappraise said:


> Ron shares facts.  CO shares opinions.


Perhaps.

But here are a couple of facts to share that weren't a few years ago

From Wyndham:

"VIP UPGRADE OPT-IN FEATURE

The VIP Unit Upgrade benefit is now improved! Save time and energy with our new opt-in feature and get back to the things that matter most.

When You confirm a reservation online, or with a Vacation Planning Guide, you can simply request that we search for your upgrade once the upgrade window opens."

http://pages.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/w...dham_plus_membersdirectory_supplement1718.pdf



and from TUG:

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/bargain-deals-forum-rules.81877/
*
"Summary added April 15, 2016:* 

-All timeshares offered in this forum should be offered for *free.* 

-You may ask the new owner to pay for the transfer fees. 

-You may not ask the new owner to pay the maintenance fee for a usage year that you are going to keep."


----------



## scootr5 (Jun 1, 2018)

chriskre said:


> If a TUGger wanted it then I'd be more inclined to give it to them instead if it passed ROFR.  Curious if they can take a deed from two owners giving it to each other with the current ROFR scheme they have in place?  I own at Las Cascadas.



I have heard that the CWA contracts (and perhaps a few deeded contracts) have a ROFR, but have no first-hand knowledge. Also, I have _never_ heard/read of Wyndham exercising ROFR on a transfer.


----------



## wjappraise (Jun 1, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> But here are a couple of facts to share that weren't a few years ago
> 
> ...



OMG.  You must be a Wyndham employee!!!

No one here believes the opt in works consistently and is an improvement over the prior upgrade system.  Except someone who is paid to believe that load of crap.


----------



## CO skier (Jun 1, 2018)

wjappraise said:


> OMG.  You must be a Wyndham employee!!!
> 
> No one here believes the opt in works consistently and is an improvement over the prior upgrade system.  Except someone who is paid to believe that load of crap.


You seem to be offering an opinion.

I just quoted what is written in the 2017 Supplement.  I offered no opinion on its workability.


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## chriskre (Jun 1, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> But here are a couple of facts to share that weren't a few years ago
> 
> ...




Loose lips sink ships and here is an example of what happens to owners when the loopholes are outed on public forums.  The ship crashes into the rocks and Wyndham builds a flashy resort with the shipwreck and respins it as a "benefit" for us.  Yeah well, whateverrrrrrrr.   Wyndham/RCI are out to keep anyone from profiting off of their product but them.  If Ron had revealed all his knowledge what would it have profited either the community nor himself.  Of course I would have done the exact same thing he did had I had the inside savvy of what was going on.  

There may or may not exist secret groups on these forums but unless you play nice you will never find out about even if they exist.  Not saying they do, but if they did I doubt you'll be invited to the party.  Especially since you do seem to be too much of a rah rah Wyndham defender.  

The reality is that these developers don't like competition and information being out there for all to google at will.  I have no beef with Wyndham because like I said I am a small time player in their resale ownership.   I have been slighted by sales people when they find out that I bought resale and have been removed from the "BIG" sales floor to a private room when that was discovered.  I imagine that's to keep others from overhearing how I acquired my ownership on ebay.  I'm not out to screw Wyndham but just to get my $100 gift card to go to Publix but obviously I make them nervous.  

Good for them for making money and making a system better that I have more options to choose from.  If people are stupid enough to fork over 50K without doing research on the resale market or any market for that matter then they deserve what they get.  In this day and age not much excuse for them unless they are old and not tech savvy.  I've had to get my Mom who is 80 out of a contract or two that she easily folded on with these developers "free" breakfast, so I get it, but at least I was there to save her.


----------



## ronparise (Jun 1, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> But here are a couple of facts to share that weren't a few years ago
> 
> ...




Wyndham knew about cancel and rebook  long before the August 2016 suspensions, but I don’t think they were aware of its scale.  They went looking for accounts that had more reservations in them than could be justified by the number of points owned. But they really didn’t know how that could happen. 
 When I was suspended I went to Orlando to meet with Wyndham to try to understand what they needed and to work things out. I learned in that meeting just how ignorant they were. They were completely unaware of how I was using the points credit pool. And they nearly fell out of their chairs when I told them who was buying my stripped contracts.  They asked a lot of questions but two that stood out regarding cancel and rebook were 1) do you use the technique called cancel and rebook to get discounts? Ans: yes, that’s the only way to make money renting this stuff and 2) are you a vip owner? Ans: I don’t know whether you really don’t know my vip status or whether you are playing a lawyers cross examining game asking the same questions over and over trying to catch me in a lie.  But you just asked me about discounts. You should know only vip owners get discounts

That ended our discussion and I asked that the next time someone calls me that it be someone  that knows something and who can make a decision

The point of this is that Wyndham had no idea of how we were exploiting the existing system until they audited our accounts.and cancel and rebook was a really small part of it (I gave my points to a manager for just enough to cover fees. Cancel and rebook wasn’t very important to me) (the credit pool was)

  I believe the only reason they instituted the new rules was to make life difficult for renters.  They really didn’t see cancel and rebook as as big a problem that you did.


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## bnoble (Jun 1, 2018)

chriskre said:


> They wear down the average owner with updates and hoops that spoil a vacation so why would those owners just hand over what they believe was an expensive ownership for free to a company they feel has done them injustices year after year after year.


While I too am a resale-only owner, and I avoid updates like the plague, I also am constantly impressed by the fact that everyone around the pool seems to genuinely enjoy their Wyndham ownerships purchased from the developer and added to over the years.

I used to tell them how great resale was, but in general they did not want to hear it. So, I've learned to smile and say something like: "Yes, I love owning too."


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## wjappraise (Jun 1, 2018)

bnoble said:


> While I too am a resale-only owner, and I avoid updates like the plague, I also am constantly impressed by the fact that everyone around the pool seems to genuinely enjoy their Wyndham ownerships purchased from the developer and added to over the years.
> 
> I used to tell them how great resale was, but in general they did not want to hear it. So, I've learned to smile and say something like: "Yes, I love owning too."



Well stated.  I am one who purchased developer points, and kept on adding to it for years.  Then I added resale points to the account and have a well rounded account now, albeit with a lot of money spent that will never be returned.  I have several family members and friends that use my ownership to stay at great places at great rates, as I can get the VIP discount.  However, there are a couple of friends who have absolutely insisted on purchasing their own Wyndham ownership, even though that required a large up-front cost, and they continue to pay more for their usage than they ever did when using mine.  They pay for reservation transactions, HK fees, and the like without getting even the smallest VIP discount they did until the the two-year false VIP blush wore off.  But, they insist they love having their own membership, even though they still call me to make larger reservations as they lack the sufficient points to do so.  

I usually tell friends that love the resorts and are curious about owning, that if I were to do it all over again, I would find someone like me that owned a large number of points, had full VIP perks, and rent from him.


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## chriskre (Jun 1, 2018)

bnoble said:


> While I too am a resale-only owner, and I avoid updates like the plague, I also am constantly impressed by the fact that everyone around the pool seems to genuinely enjoy their Wyndham ownerships purchased from the developer and added to over the years.
> 
> I used to tell them how great resale was, but in general they did not want to hear it. So, I've learned to smile and say something like: "Yes, I love owning too."



I agree that owners enjoying the resorts are probably in that camp but
the ones who come here to see how to get rid of their ownerships may
feel differently as do the groups on facebook who just want out.  

I've also learned that most people don't want to know about the resale
market and honestly I only bring it up if they seem the type that wants
to talk about it because I will tell them I exchanged in with an ownership
I have elsewhere.  I only use my points at specific Wyn resorts and the
rest of the stays at Wyn are with cheaper TPU's I get elsewhere or with
an RCI rental that's usually a bargain and not worth trading to get.


----------



## Jan M. (Jun 1, 2018)

CO skier said:


> You seem to be offering an opinion.
> 
> I just quoted what is written in the 2017 Supplement.  I offered no opinion on its workability.



I'm not sure what you point was of even bringing that up. From what I remember from your posts in the past your have a real problem with VIP owner benefits. The VIP owners paid a lot of money to get those benefits that you did not. Everyone knows you don't get a top of the line Lexus or BMW for the cost of a Chevy Aveo. You are offering no opinion because you have no first hand knowledge of its workability. The occasions it does work are infrequent enough to be laughable. You seem to follow the Wyndham threads so I'm guessing that just makes your day to see the VIP owners getting screwed by Wyndham.


----------



## wjappraise (Jun 1, 2018)

CO skier said:


> You seem to be offering an opinion.
> 
> I just quoted what is written in the 2017 Supplement.  I offered no opinion on its workability.



Here is what you said:  " But here are a couple of *facts *to share that weren't a few years ago

From Wyndham:   "VIP UPGRADE OPT-IN FEATURE   
*The VIP Unit Upgrade benefit is now improved!"*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, you clearly did offer an opinion, you said it was a "fact" that the upgrade was "now improved."  And we all know that is false.


----------



## Avislo (Jun 1, 2018)

The instant upgrade feature is working well for me overall, some minor exceptions.  The  automatic upgrade feature does work for me, not sure how well.


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## CO skier (Jun 5, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> From what I remember from your posts in the past your have a real problem with VIP owner benefits.



Maybe you missed this summary of my thinking.


CO skier said:


> VIP discounts within 60 days are a nice benefit.  I think the idea is fine when it is used to reserve genuinely unloved units within 60 days.



https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/account-review-email-accts-suspended.245656/page-12#post-1922056


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## CO skier (Jun 5, 2018)

wjappraise said:


> Here is what you said:  " But here are a couple of *facts *to share that weren't a few years ago
> 
> From Wyndham:   "VIP UPGRADE OPT-IN FEATURE
> *The VIP Unit Upgrade benefit is now improved!"*
> ...



Those are not my words; those are the words from someone at Wyndham. What do you think the phrase you quoted, "From Wyndham" means? Did you not open the link associated with the quote, so you do not know they are Wyndham’s words not mine? The fact is that Wyndham thought in 2017 that the VIP Unit Upgrade benefit is improved. Maybe they still do.


There are owners who were used to creating their own VIP upgrades. Attempts to imitate those upgrade paths are no longer predictable. Other VIP owners who did not know of the loophole, or did not spend hours online searching for upgrades, now receive some automatic upgrades with no effort on their part other than checking a box.

I have followed the commentary for a year, and there are two possibilities that I see, 1) the Wyndham IT department is as incompetent as some assert or 2) Wyndham intends to maintain a random and unpredictable VIP upgrade process.


----------



## scootr5 (Jun 5, 2018)

Just because they are words from Wyndham does not make them a "fact".


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## scootr5 (Jun 5, 2018)

CO skier said:


> I have followed the commentary for a year, and there are two possibilities that I see, 1) the Wyndham IT department is as incompetent as some assert or 2) Wyndham intends to maintain a random and unpredictable VIP upgrade process.



Or 3) Wyndham maintains a random and unpredictable VIP upgrade process because the Wyndham IT department is as incompetent as some assert.


----------



## wjappraise (Jun 5, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Those are not my words; those are the words from someone at Wyndham. What do you think the phrase you quoted, "From Wyndham" means? Did you not open the link associated with the quote, so you do not know they are Wyndham’s words not mine? The fact is that Wyndham thought in 2017 that the VIP Unit Upgrade benefit is improved. Maybe they still do.
> 
> 
> There are owners who were used to creating their own VIP upgrades. Attempts to imitate those upgrade paths are no longer predictable. Other VIP owners who did not know of the loophole, or did not spend hours online searching for upgrades, now receive some automatic upgrades with no effort on their part other than checking a box.
> ...



It was your use of the word “fact,” coupled with your longstanding support of Wyndham practices that unilaterally remove rights of ownership, that results in your opinions being discredited.  Add to that your open contempt for the most informative poster here, Ron Parise, and many of us question the accuracy and motivation for the posts.


----------



## chapjim (Jun 5, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> But here are a couple of facts to share that weren't a few years ago
> 
> ...



This is hardly a fact.  It is spin, puffery, at best highly misleading. 

It is true, I suppose, that we can request Wyndham to search for an upgrade when the upgrade window opens.  The implication is that upgrades, when available, will occur on a regular, consistent basis.  That is plain and simple not happening.


----------



## ecwinch (Jun 5, 2018)

[Mod reminder - while it would be a boring place to visit if everyone had the same opinion, I believe we can disagree without speculating that someone is a shill or a mole.]


----------



## Jan M. (Jun 5, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Nothing against Ron Parise, personally.  I did not agree with his perspective regarding cancel/rebook in 2012 and years following or his trying to pass off stripped Wyndham contracts as bargains in 2015, or whenever it was.  It should be noted that eventually Wyndham did not agree with his perspective regarding cancel/rebook -- never thought I would see the day -- and TUG did not agree with his idea of what is a bargain.
> 
> Through it all, I had the general impression he did enjoy the banter.  Maybe it is just my perspective.



I will speak up in your defense because you did have a very legitimate reason to resent some VIP owners. Try to look at it from the perspective of what is probably 94-97 per cent of VIP owners who weren't making a business out of renting using the book, cancel, rebook, upgrade strategy or stripping deeds. They had years of being able to use book, cancel, rebook and upgrade successfully a good majority of the time. They were coached in how to do it by the sales people and in many cases even by the VC's for so many years that it felt like something they were entitled to be able to do as long as they didn't mind taking the chance of losing an occasional reservation. Some of them wouldn't have bought enough points to be at the VIP level they are at and many now feel cheated. And why wouldn't they? Again I will use a car analogy. It's like being told if you buy from us for $100k-$200k every year you will get a top of the line Lincoln Town car or Cadillac and all you have to pay is this annual maintenance fee. For years you get that car then one day they tell you from now on we aren't going to do that anymore even though we've told you repeatedly for years we would and we did. You should be grateful for the Ford Focus we are now going to give you because it is so much better than a Ford Escort. And we can get away with that because regardless of how often and to how many people it was said and by how many of our people it was said, it wasn't put in writing, only a verbal thing. But we still get to take your money every year. Then they tell you how much they care and value you and that if you want out of paying them the annual fees, well, they care so much that they will graciously allow you to walk away with nothing.

It is easier for me to be objective about this than many VIP owners because as I've stated in previous posts I very, very rarely did the book, cancel, rebook, upgrade. It invariably turned out that there was no need to do it because when the discount period came there were reservations available, that I had tied up those points needlessly and then had to worry about having cancelled points left at the end of the use year. I've told how flexible my husband's work schedule always was but it was really only flexible within a shorter time period, several months, not a year or even six months out. Also for many of the years we've owned when I was working we could never go during holiday times and summers. But other than that I had flexibility too. We got so spoiled with the resorts being quieter that we still prefer not going during those busy times. The 60 day window to get the discounts and upgrades was and still is ideal for our needs. It also helps that we don't need the larger units either. Sometimes it might have taken me a few days and once in a great while even a week or so to be able to put together the stays we wanted but I never had to say we couldn't go because I couldn't find or piece together a reservation. That is until this new website and the changes. It makes me feel resentful that I who used the system like it was intended am finding difficult to get reservations now. There is absolutely no reason that people like us who are happy with the one and two bedroom units at non peak times should be having this problem.

There is no doubt in any VIP owner's mind that Wyndham has devalued what we own. Every corrective action that Wyndham has taken over the years has been at the expense of the VIP owners and has failed. However what is really important to realize is that Wyndham failed to keep the sharks away from all of us, lower point owners, resale owners and VIP owners. And now it is very much looking like Wyndham has used all of us to become Megladon. Wyndham could always have prevented all of the abuses but they chose not to because it benefited them. Everything they do is ultimately for their benefit, anything that trickles down to us is the scraps thrown on the floor for the dogs spun by them to make it sound like a feast for a king. Divide and conquer is a very basic strategy. When we allow them to pit us against each other, low point developer owners, VIP owners, resale owners, it is important for all of us to keep in mind who really wins.


----------



## Avislo (Jun 6, 2018)

Any inputs on the various Club Wyndham deeded contract sizes especially those under 154,000 points.


----------



## Avislo (Jun 7, 2018)

Wonder how mega renters want-a-bees are doing under the newly coined buy hold rent phrase?


----------



## ronparise (Jun 7, 2018)

Avislo said:


> Wonder how mega renters want-a-bees are doing under the newly coined buy hold rent phrase?



newly coined??

rear estate investors will tell you that there are two ways to invest
1) buy and hold... these investors will often look for a return on their investment until they sell. (hopefully at a profit)   Some will rent their property others might grow corn or soy beans 
2) buy and sell... (at a profit) you might call these guys "flippers"  

I met a guy recently that worked what he called the the BRRR strategy   Buy-Repair-Rent-Refinance-Repeat  this is a variation of the buy hold strategy

These are not newly coined phrases as you suggest; these are tried and true real estate investment strategies.


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## CO skier (Jun 7, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> Wyndham could always have prevented all of the abuses but they chose not to because it benefited them.


That may be true, but I doubt that is a fact – seems more like an opinion. If the VIP abuses benefited Wyndham, why did Wyndham do away with the VIP abuses through eliminating the Credit Pool and initiating the automatic VIP upgrades?


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## Avislo (Jun 7, 2018)

Thanks for the info on coined phrases.


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## ronparise (Jun 7, 2018)

CO skier said:


> That may be true, but I doubt that is a fact – seems more like an opinion. If the VIP abuses benefited Wyndham, why did Wyndham do away with the VIP abuses through eliminating the Credit Pool and initiating the automatic VIP upgrades?



You are absolutely right the so called abuses neither helped or hurt Wyndham (unless what we were doing hurt sales) at least that’s what they say

Wyndham says (at least the Wyndham attorney I work with) tells me that Wyndham has no problem with renting and renters or even the so called abuses. Their  issue is one of fairness. As manager and administrator of the trust they represent all owners and it is important that they are always able to say every owner has an equal chance to get any reservation.  Because they believe that the way I (and others) used the credit pool and the cancel rebook strategy gave us an unfair advantage when making reservations. And especially because they got complaints from folks like you. They felt the need to close loopholes and change rules.   It didn’t help my cause either, that I was able to make vip accounts at will, without ever visiting a Wyndham sales room

So they changed the rules to keep a level playing field.  At least that’s what they say

It is my personal belief that the most important complaints were from the sales managers.  That it was easy for folks to enjoy the Wyndham experience without a purchase was I think responsible for a lot of rejections and rescissions. Bottom line we megarenters hurt sales. And that was the reason for all the changes


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## Silverdollar (Jun 7, 2018)

ronparise said:


> You are absolutely right the so called abuses neither helped or hurt Wyndham (unless what we were doing hurt sales) at least that’s what they say
> 
> Wyndham says (at least the Wyndham attorney I work with) tells me that Wyndham has no problem with renting and renters or even the so called abuses. Their  issue is one of fairness. As manager and administrator of the trust they represent all owners and it is important that they are always able to say every owner has an equal chance to get any reservation.  Because they believe that the way I (and others) used the credit pool and the cancel rebook strategy gave us an unfair advantage when making reservations. And especially because they got complaints from folks like you. They felt the need to close loopholes and change rules.   It didn’t help my cause either, that I was able to make vip accounts at will, without ever visiting a Wyndham sales room
> 
> ...


You spoke of fairness and changing the rules to keep a level playing field. Could your last paragraph also apply to the purchase of resales versus developer points, such as when you said, "easy for folks to enjoy the Wyndham experience without a purchase . . . responsible for a lot of rejections and rescissions. Bottom line [resales] hurt sales. And that was the reason for all the changes".

If the most important complaints were from the sales managers (as you say), and it resulted in "all the changes", could Wyndham also decide to change the rules because of so many resale purchases for "pennies on the dollar" that has resulted in "a lot of rejections, rescissions and hurt sales"?

It seems to me that in the long run Wyndham will have to make an adequate number of sales of developer points to stay viable. Therefore, if resales cut too deep into profits then changes will have to be made in some way.


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## Avislo (Jun 7, 2018)

Wyndham did limit re-sales by requiring developer points for some of the programs.  Where Wyndham Destinations goes on this issue remains to be seen.


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## Braindead (Jun 7, 2018)

Wyndham did NOT limit resales available by requiring developer points for some of the programs.
They only made resales prices go down giving the informed buyer even more incentive to buy resale.


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## ronparise (Jun 8, 2018)

Silverdollar said:


> You spoke of fairness and changing the rules to keep a level playing field. Could your last paragraph also apply to the purchase of resales versus developer points, such as when you said, "easy for folks to enjoy the Wyndham experience without a purchase . . . responsible for a lot of rejections and rescissions. Bottom line [resales] hurt sales. And that was the reason for all the changes".
> 
> If the most important complaints were from the sales managers (as you say), and it resulted in "all the changes", could Wyndham also decide to change the rules because of so many resale purchases for "pennies on the dollar" that has resulted in "a lot of rejections, rescissions and hurt sales"?
> 
> It seems to me that in the long run Wyndham will have to make an adequate number of sales of developer points to stay viable. Therefore, if resales cut too deep into profits then changes will have to be made in some way.



Dont forget . every resale was originally a developer purchase
I dont see how a resale hurts profits

I agree that wyndham makes their money from sales. They make money managing the resorts and the club too, but the real money is in sales.The question posed in the article that started this discussion is... Can wyndham and the other timeshare companies continue to sell at the rate they have been given that young people dont seem to be moved by the forever nature of timeshares and the high upfront cost of them

Also sales related is the fact that wyndham has to provide product for the sales staff to sell.. Thats where the secondary market comes in.  Wyndham dosent want to stop secondary market transfers, (they cant)  but they can and do participate. Between Ovation and secondary market purchases that they make, Wyndham is able to keep their sales department supplied

The point Im trying to make here is that Wyndham has a Plan B that they are working on too, just in case the day comes when they can sell this stuff... And I think that plan includes rentals.


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## Avislo (Jun 8, 2018)

Can or cannot sell this stuff?


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## ronparise (Jun 8, 2018)

Avislo said:


> Can or cannot sell this stuff?


Can’t. 

 Just corrected it. Thanks


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## Avislo (Jun 8, 2018)

You are welcome.


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## Railman83 (Jun 8, 2018)

As the OP I note just how far the conversation has drifted from the original post about a shortage in inventory, which, btw, no longer seem to be the case.


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## Avislo (Jun 8, 2018)

Railman83 said:


> As the OP I note just how far the conversation has drifted from the original post about a shortage in inventory, which, btw, no longer seem to be the case.



The common main and supporting points on the thread have to do with slim pickings on re-sale.  It has overall been a very good thread.  Thanks for starting it.


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## Railman83 (Jun 8, 2018)

Avislo said:


> The common main and supporting points on the thread have to do with slim pickings on re-sale.  It has overall been a very good thread.  Thanks for starting it.


Thank you and understood.   

The thread was started based on a snapshot in time that suggested a trend that actually reversed itself very quickly, at least on EBay.

Were I to start the thread today it might be “increased prices on resale for the better stuff”


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## Jan M. (Jun 8, 2018)

Silverdollar said:


> You spoke of fairness and changing the rules to keep a level playing field. Could your last paragraph also apply to the purchase of resales versus developer points, such as when you said, "easy for folks to enjoy the Wyndham experience without a purchase . . . responsible for a lot of rejections and rescissions. Bottom line [resales] hurt sales. And that was the reason for all the changes".
> 
> If the most important complaints were from the sales managers (as you say), and it resulted in "all the changes", could Wyndham also decide to change the rules because of so many resale purchases for "pennies on the dollar" that has resulted in "a lot of rejections, rescissions and hurt sales"?
> 
> It seems to me that in the long run Wyndham will have to make an adequate number of sales of developer points to stay viable. Therefore, if resales cut too deep into profits then changes will have to be made in some way.



Instead of making changes to our detriment one critically important thing they could and should do is make a change to their business model.

I'm reminded of big chains that sold electronics and appliances that have gone under over the years. Like Sun TV, Circuit City, and most recently hhgregg. Best Buy has survived when the others didn't because they've changed their business model to keep pace with the times and market. Not only did they change it but they were the leaders in changing their business model. At one time their salespeople, like the salespeople at the other chains, worked on commission. Those Best Buy salespeople could make good money. Sound familiar? We know how good the money could be because a friend of my husband's left Best Buy after they dropped commission and he was no longer making the big bucks. Best Buy decided to get rid of commission and those employees either became hourly or salaried employees. Not sure exactly how long ago they made that change but I know it is more than 12 years ago because our son worked for Best Buy when he was in college. The point is that Best Buy survived just fine, prospered and continued to grow.

I've always said that Wyndham has a good product. When you have a good product word of mouth and satisfied customers/owners sell your product more than anything else. Especially now when anyone can easily read reviews posted on places like Trip Advisor, join discussion groups like TUG, Facebook, hear/read about the lawsuits and settlements that have hit the news, etc. Is it really in Wyndham's best interests to continue with a business model that only damages their reputation? They are their own worst enemy yet they still stick with this business model that only harms them. Will they be like Circuit City and hhgregg who tried to copy some but not all of Best Buy's business model? Will they allow their old school executives and board members to insist on clinging to these destructive and outdated business practices so they don't change what really needs changed?

When a company not just allows but actively encourages their sales people to lie, manipulate, engage in unethical sales practices they are in effect saying we don't have a product worth having so we have to do these things to sell our product. If Wyndham were to announce that they are doing away with commissioned sales people and thereby putting an end to the unacceptable and unethical sales tactics the positive publicity that would come out of that would be amazing! If they were to come out with a statement to the effect of: We know we have a good product and don't want anything to detract from people seeing that. Our ... (number) owners like being owners, enjoy the resorts. By making these changes we believe that Wyndham will move forward in a positive way so more people can have that same experience. Money can't buy the kind of positive publicity a move like that would bring.


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## capital city (Jun 8, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> Instead of making changes to our detriment one critically important thing they could and should do is make a change to their business model.
> 
> I'm reminded of big chains that sold electronics and appliances that have gone under over the years. Like Sun TV, Circuit City, and most recently hhgregg. Best Buy has survived when the others didn't because they've changed their business model to keep pace with the times and market. Not only did they change it but they were the leaders in changing their business model. At one time their salespeople, like the salespeople at the other chains, worked on commission. Those Best Buy salespeople could make good money. Sound familiar? We know how good the money could be because a friend of my husband's left Best Buy after they dropped commission and he was no longer making the big bucks. Best Buy decided to get rid of commission and those employees either became hourly or salaried employees. Not sure exactly how long ago they made that change but I know it is more than 12 years ago because our son worked for Best Buy when he was in college. The point is that Best Buy survived just fine, prospered and continued to grow.
> 
> ...



Completely agree and how much could Wyndham save by cutting the aggressive sales teams and high commissions. Just doing quick math I think they could sell a week - 150,000 points for 7k and still make a decent profit but instead want to charge what is it now 25k?


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## CCdad (Jun 8, 2018)

I wonder what the straight sales commission structure is in the TS industry? 

I thought years ago for new developments, people speculated that up to 25% was to recoup the cost to build, 25% was for the sales commissions and marketing costs and the remaining 50% was the developer's profit. Plus the unconscionable interest rates they'd charge to those without the means to pay cash or finance their developer purchase through other lending avenues.

Now with Ovations, Pathways and the resale market - perhaps the cost of acquisition is much less than 25%, so a larger developer's profit every time Wyndham can flip a new developer sale.


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## Silverdollar (Jun 8, 2018)

Are you saying that the numerous rescissions made by those who found this forum have not hurt profits? And what about those who attend future owner updates with this knowledge of the resale market? Does their refusal to ever make a developer purchase again hurt profits? It would seem to me that in both cases they do or would.

I agree that every resale was originally a developer purchase, but if John Doe makes a developer purchase and then rescinds and then turns around and purchases a resale, then Wyndham has lost a sale worth thousands$$$ that would have otherwise added to their bottom line.

Don't get me wrong. As long as the resale option of "pennies on the dollar" is available, I don't blame anyone for taking advantage of it. I'm just saying that at some point Wyndham might feel compelled to put additional limits on resale points to make developer purchases more attractive.


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## Silverdollar (Jun 8, 2018)

ronparise said:


> Dont forget . every resale was originally a developer purchase
> I dont see how a resale hurts profits
> 
> I agree that wyndham makes their money from sales. They make money managing the resorts and the club too, but the real money is in sales.The question posed in the article that started this discussion is... Can wyndham and the other timeshare companies continue to sell at the rate they have been given that young people dont seem to be moved by the forever nature of timeshares and the high upfront cost of them
> ...



Ron, I had intended to include your quote prior to my last post. Sorry.


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## CCdad (Jun 9, 2018)

Silverdollar said:


> Ron, I had intended to include your quote prior to my last post. Sorry.



I'd argue that if every developer purchaser didn't rescind, it would deplete Wyndham's retail inventory that much faster.

Wyndham would then have to enter the resale market to a greater extent and perhaps accept less desirable contracts via Ovation to keep their inventory pipeline full. That'd drive up resale prices even more, helping the sellers but not the resale buyers.

I also suspect that's why Salespeople keep trying to get developer equity trades between CWA & non-CWA. Every equity trade into CWA frees up a more desirable retail contract.

Just my two cents, but your mileage may vary.


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## ronparise (Jun 9, 2018)

CCdad said:


> I wonder what the straight sales commission structure is in the TS industry?
> 
> I thought years ago for new developments, people speculated that up to 25% was to recoup the cost to build, 25% was for the sales commissions and marketing costs and the remaining 50% was the developer's profit. Plus the unconscionable interest rates they'd charge to those without the means to pay cash or finance their developer purchase through other lending avenues.
> 
> Now with Ovations, Pathways and the resale market - perhaps the cost of acquisition is much less than 25%, so a larger developer's profit every time Wyndham can flip a new developer sale.


 you have the marketing and profits reversed


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## ronparise (Jun 9, 2018)

Silverdollar said:


> Are you saying that the numerous rescissions made by those who found this forum have not hurt profits? And what about those who attend future owner updates with this knowledge of the resale market? Does their refusal to ever make a developer purchase again hurt profits? It would seem to me that in both cases they do or would.
> 
> I agree that every resale was originally a developer purchase, but if John Doe makes a developer purchase and then rescinds and then turns around and purchases a resale, then Wyndham has lost a sale worth thousands$$$ that would have otherwise added to their bottom line.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. As long as the resale option of "pennies on the dollar" is available, I don't blame anyone for taking advantage of it. I'm just saying that at some point Wyndham might feel compelled to put additional limits on resale points to make developer purchases more attractive.



First of all I don’t think tug has any effect in sales.

There's a difference between profits that never were and and losses. As long as the total number of tours isn’t going down and as long as the sales force hits their goals (and they don’t count a sale until the rescission period is over) rescissions don’t matter  (obviously rescissions matter but a certain percentage are expected and accounted for)

Every salesman knows sales is a numbers game. Generate enough qualified prospects and the sales will follow. Wyndham has a target number of tours that they want to do and they know to expect a certain percentage  of no’s, rescissions and completed sales out of those tours. Since sales have been going up since after the Great Recession,  I don’t think they are looking any deeper than that.

Bottom line.  Wyndham accounts for rescissions and I don’t think rescissions have gone up. And as long as they can keep sales up and decrease the cost of goods sold they are happy

Regarding cost of goods sold, Wyndhams buy back programs have no doubt reduced their cost of goods sold. 

The big thing Ovation has done for them is to reduce the number of Wyndham contracts on eBay. The inventory there used to be mostly the inventory of the post card companies. Now folks are using Ovation or listing through brokers and hoping to get a few dollars rather than paying a post card company or giving it away

There is always going to be a secondary market. Wyndham can’t stop that unless tthey go to timeshares that simply expire. Ie instead of selling a lifetime of vacations they sell a set number of vacations. Or they gain control the secondary market and set prices


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## Braindead (Jun 9, 2018)

Agree that TUG has very little effect on first time purchases.
If a new owner comes hear looking they are already having second thoughts and looking for confirmation that they should rescind.

Tug may have more effect on owners making additional purchases. But even then it would be such small effect way less than percent.

All post here indicate the Facebook group congratulates new owners and repeat buyers.

On the average week 20-40 contracts are selling on eBay. Every resort is selling more contracts in a week than what sells on eBay and Wyndham is buying some of those on eBay.

I have been at smaller resorts that sold 8-10 contracts a day to existing owners. 

What sales on eBay is so minuscule compared to what Wyndham sales. 
Some here like to think TUG has a big impact on Wyndham sales but we don’t or resale prices would be closer to a 50% discount to Wyndham prices. When was the last time you have seen a contract sell on eBay for $100 per thousand points. SMTN and other websites are way over priced and sell way below asking price if at all or you would have people buying eBay contracts and listing on those sites making easy money. I asked a broker at SMTN if he ever buys and resells. Answer NO.


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## spackler (Jun 9, 2018)

By my count, there's 71 points-related Wyndham deeds up for sale on eBay right now, not including Access contracts.

That seems like a lot to me.  Most of them seem to be from the so-called "post card companies"...do sellers still not understand that Ovation even exists?  Why do people continue to pay others to get rid of these deeds?


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## ronparise (Jun 9, 2018)

spackler said:


> By my count, there's 71 points-related Wyndham deeds up for sale on eBay right now, not including Access contracts.
> 
> That seems like a lot to me.  Most of them seem to be from the so-called "post card companies"...do sellers still not understand that Ovation even exists?  Why do people continue to pay others to get rid of these deeds?




To answer your question first. I don’t know but they do. But they don’t do it as much today as when I was doing most of my buying

At one time I had a relationship with a small postcard company. They gave me anything Wyndham they got. They paid the closing companies fee and wyndhams transfer fee too. Ultimately they found someone like me but not as cheap. He agreed to pay transfer and closing and I was out.  Now they almost never get a wyndham. Why? Ovation. Three other outfits I bought from are now brokers getting listings  from owners that want to sell and make a few dollars rather than just feeding back to Wyndham. 

Make no mistake, Ovation has had a major impact on the secondary market and on the post card companies

There used to be pages and pages  of Wyndham stuff for sale on eBay. And a lot got re listed until the price went down to a dollar or less. If they didn’t sell they got loaded on a Viking ship and pushed out to sea. You don’t see that any more 

There used to be long threads here on tug talking about the postcard companies and Viking ships. The consensus was that if the developers  became  the buyers  of last resort. There would be no need for Viking ships. We argued about whether the developers should be required (by law) to buy back or not and no one knew what the small independent resorts could do. But we all pretty much agreed that the resorts would have to take  their inventory back if by no other means than foreclosure

Wyndham finally saw the light and introduced Ovation and a buy back program. They don’t yet have complete control of the secondary market, but i bet that one day they do

And as I’ve said here before I’m also betting that they create a new model for vacation “ownership” (5 or 10 year leases, or rentals or  condotels or perhaps  something like Hapimag


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## needhelp (Jun 9, 2018)

ronparise said:


> And as I’ve said here before I’m also betting that they create a new model for vacation “ownership” (5 or 10 year leases, or rentals or  condotels or perhaps  something like Hapimag


I do not see the benefit of the lease model, especially for 5 years. But it could work like a pre-paid program, you become a member to lock in the price of vacations for a certain amount of years.


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## Railman83 (Jun 9, 2018)

By lease do you mean an RTU?

I think the CWA is a pretty good product for them, if overpriced at retail prices of course. If it were priced reasonably, they could sell 5, 10, 15, 20, etc right to use and cycle inventory predictably. 

The problem is, of course that timeshares aren’t bought they have to be sold, at least that is the current model.   If they had a new sales model that didn’t have to support thousands of sales people, they could sell at prices that are churn and burn....very close to a rising resale market if they got control.

But what?   

I have no idea, but try this:

Have one guy simulcasting the pitch to people on a screen at 20 resorts, every potential customer sitting at a chair with an iPad to select from purchase options while minimum wage people deliver water and make sure people can log in?   

The deal would have to be good enough that people can do it in their head.   I can get X number of vacations for Y years for Z cost.

If instead of 25K for 154,000 CWA contract, what if it was, with reduced cost of sales $5000 for X years and put the whole thing on your credit card.   People could watch the pretty pictures of resorts, and on IPAD plug in X bedrooms at Y resort and see it is Z price.   

So the customer simulates two weeks they want at the 2 resorts in a two bedroom would Cost X points a year, and total cost with mfs would be some number.   That numbers is either cheaper than a hotel room or Vrbo or other option or it isn’t.   My guess is, the number would self evidently be lower because given enough time even deleloper points at inflated prices beat the other options.

Not saying this is the model, but they have to change the current one because the cost of sales is disproportionate to the point where the value of goods sold is diminished.  Business model works for now, but that’s what the said at Blockbuster.   Whether is us TUG or Google, I think counting on universal ignorance is going to work less and less.


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## wjappraise (Jun 9, 2018)

I’ve always wondered why Wyndham didn’t start a PIC style program using resale Wyndham contracts that an owner held.  

As an example, they could allow an owner to “adopt” a resale contract and have it count toward VIP status if the owner purchased a developer contract of the same number of points.  I’m of the opinion that many non-VIP owners would jump at the option, even some VIP owners who wanted to move up to Gold or Platinum.  They could do via direct emailing or direct snail mail.  They’d capture a lot of sales from current customers. 

Of course, one could allege that current VIP owners would cry foul about the fact that others were allowed to reach their status at half cost.  I would counter that Wyndham really does not care what current owners think, they are really only interested in potential owners thoughts, and what it takes to make them buy.  And Wyndham routinely changes the rules to benefit themselves.  

In just the time I’ve been a VIP owner, I’ve lost numerous rights of ownership:  Unlimited guest reservations, ability to cancel a reservation up to the day of check in, ability to transfer points to another owner, ability to reserve more than ten rooms at one resort, ability to reserve more than one room in my name, ability to use next year’s points this year, ability to “buy”points when I run out at $6/1,000 points (raised to $8 then $12) during my ownership tenure.  I’m sure there are more,  but my point is that even though thousands of owners cried foul over the changes, Wyndham ignored us. 

Bottom line, I think Wyndham is missing out on huge numbers of sales to its existing owners.   And I believe that speaks to a larger issue of how Wyndham is solely interested in NEW sales, that it largely ignores its current owners.


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## ronparise (Jun 9, 2018)

Railman83 said:


> By lease do you mean an RTU?
> 
> I think the CWA is a pretty good product for them, if overpriced at retail prices of course. If it were priced reasonably, they could sell 5, 10, 15, 20, etc right to use and cycle inventory predictably.
> 
> ...




You are on the right track I think, They are overpriced.  but its not just just the salesman's commissions though, its the entire marketing cost.....Its the same reason new cars lose so much value the minute you drive them off the lot

The condos at Reunion are selling for $325000.  Wyndhams condos are furnished so maybe they are worth $300000
a week at one of the wyndham condos is about 250000 points x50 = 12.5 million points a year.  At $200/1000 points (wyndhams selling price) thats  $2.5 million 

Worldmark has condos here too and they cost 17000 credits per week x 50 = 850000 credits a year, Wyndham sells this stuff at $3/credit so they sell each condo for $2.5 million too

so wyndham is selling a $300000 condo for $2,500,000 

Overpriced??...I think so


another way to look at this is to calculate the cost per a week vacation
Using the same example... If I buy 250000 points at $200/1000 thats $50000  and I have committed to about  $1500 mf per year
so if I anticipate a 20 year ownership, my cost per week for the first 20 years is  $4100/week.  I see the same condos for rent on VRBO for under $200/night

overpriced?.....I think so


We think timeshares are a great product, and that they should sell themselves.... the question is at what price that will happen

I think we have the answer on ebay. ie at about $10/1000 or less.. but thats not enough to give wyndham any profit at all. so they need a marketing dept which will add cost, and they need salesmen to sell it... 

I think the better question is... at what price can a salesman sell this stuff without resorting to lies and high pressure   And I dont have the answer to that one


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## bnoble (Jun 10, 2018)

You know, there is _some_ value in not having to buy the whole condo, and people _should _expect to pay a premium for that. This is sort of like the difference between buying the 2-roll pack of TP at the corner store vs. the case of it at Costco. Sure, the case costs less per roll, but you have to go get it, have a place to store it, etc. I live alone in a 1BR apartment without tons of storage space at the moment, so I'm not buying cases at a time, even though in the long run it is cheaper to do so. 

What that premium should be is another open question.


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## Railman83 (Jun 10, 2018)

The entire pitch is you get a bigger and better place for less than a hotel room.  

Somewhere on TUG or similar outlet, or maybe WSJ or CNBC, I’ve seen  someone do the math, and the breakeven was 20+ years. Most resales are fairly immediate.  It seems to me, at least with low cost of goods via Ovation and feedbacks that Wyndham could offer some kind of sales product purchases directly thru Wyndham (like Lexus certified preowned) that was priced between resale and developer cost.

Perhaps you could start with a direct purchase for existing owners who bought from developers, or maybe all existing owners.   The resale market is “scary” to some and people will pay some premium for safety.

I have a beachfront condo and I have to price significantly less that the resort when they rent my exact same unit.   Wyndham could get the same kind of trust premium and perhaps hit their margin marks.   

So list resale contracts on the owners website and allow Wyndham to finance.   Stick to CWA that would allow essentially automatic revert to Wyndham without foreclosure.  Or not.   If they want to control the resale market, then they could resell the resale at a trust premium and make additional money off low risk (for them) financing.


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## dgalati (Jul 19, 2021)

_[*Moderator Note*: There is no need to resurrect an old thread for the sole purpose of making a point that's already been made in a current thread. This thread is being locked.] <-- SueDonJ_


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