# Experts say it may be time for grocery stores to ban customers from coming inside



## Panina (Apr 19, 2020)

Experts say it may be time for grocery stores to ban customers from coming inside
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/19/business/grocery-stores-coronavirus-pickup-delivery/index.html


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## x3 skier (Apr 19, 2020)

I searched for a health “expert” in the article. Several worker “experts” and grocery owners. I may have missed it. 

Cheers


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## Panina (Apr 19, 2020)

x3 skier said:


> I searched for a health “expert” in the article. Several worker “experts” and grocery owners. I may have missed it.
> 
> Cheers


No you didn’t.  I took notice of union leaders, protecting workers, minimizing risk.


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## Rolltydr (Apr 19, 2020)

Panina said:


> No you didn’t.  I took notice of union leaders, protecting workers, minimizing risk.


Why do I feel this would be a contentious social issue?


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 19, 2020)

I have become accustomed to curbside and delivery. However they would have to massively ramp up people to support this since we have discussed in other forums how everyone is having a terrible time securing delivery slots.


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## Brett (Apr 19, 2020)

Rolltydr said:


> Why do I feel this would be a contentious social issue?


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## Rolltydr (Apr 19, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I have become accustomed to curbside and delivery. However they would have to massively ramp up people to support this since we have discussed in other forums how everyone is having a terrible time securing delivery slots.


We’ve been using Instacart for the past couple of weeks and we like it. I just know that a lot of people would be very upset if they weren’t allowed to go into the grocery store.

We often got takeout from restaurants before the SAH so that isn’t a big deal. I do miss going to eat in restaurants but I know they’ll open eventually.


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## amycurl (Apr 19, 2020)

I'm not sure why me being in the store is less safe than an Instacart person being in the store. One person is one person. It's just outsourcing the risk to someone who feels they need the money, vs. being able to stay at home. The risk is the same; the difference is the socio-economic status of the person fulfilling the task. Unless there is something I'm missing....


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## Rolltydr (Apr 19, 2020)

amycurl said:


> I'm not sure why me being in the store is less safe than an Instacart person being in the store. One person is one person. It's just outsourcing the risk to someone who feels they need the money, vs. being able to stay at home. The risk is the same; the difference is the socio-economic status of the person fulfilling the task. Unless there is something I'm missing....



We use it because it is safer for us. It reduces the number of people we come into contact with. You’re correct that it probably doesn’t make it any safer for the employees.


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## CO skier (Apr 19, 2020)

Panina said:


> Experts say it may be time for grocery stores to ban customers from coming inside
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/19/business/grocery-stores-coronavirus-pickup-delivery/index.html


As has been posted many times in other threads, "consider the source of information."

The media has only the attention span of the latest, preferably controversial, sound bite or "study."

This is going from the ridiculous to the absurd.


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## Passepartout (Apr 19, 2020)

I think that if the money and volunteers for the charities giving out boxes of food to layed-off out of workers, dries up, we're in deep do-do. In some places Nat'l Guard are helping. Churches are risking their parishioner's lives building food boxes. Places like NYC and San Francisco, close to 30% of 1st responders are sick. You can't keep homeless people separated forever.

Oh, never mind. I'm just venting. 

Jim


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## CO skier (Apr 19, 2020)

amycurl said:


> I'm not sure why me being in the store is less safe than an Instacart person being in the store. One person is one person. It's just outsourcing the risk to someone who feels they need the money, vs. being able to stay at home. The risk is the same; the difference is the socio-economic status of the person fulfilling the task. Unless there is something I'm missing....


Your point is made in the second half of the article.  Titles for articles are usually authored by editors, not the writer/reporter.  Sensationalism sells.

Any thinking person who reads the entire article and understands how unworkable banning "regular customers" from grocery stores in favor of "gig" shoppers is, and it gains nothing.  It is extremely difficult to book a slot for grocery pick-up as it currently stands.

The editor who composed the sensational title for this backwater article either never read the entire article, or just cherry-picked the first half for sensationalism.

This is just one more example why people are becoming more educated and cynical about the "media" in general.


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## pedro47 (Apr 20, 2020)

IMHO, if  you want a panic / riots in America just try to ban American from going to the grocery and hardware stores.

Is my post over the top?????????. It may be deleted. no problem. No hurt feeling.


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## beejaybeeohio (Apr 20, 2020)

We've tried ordering our groceries online for delivery. It's usually a week out for a slot and we've timed out before we can place our order. So we do go in person @ every 10 days or so.  Heinen's, which is a Cleveland chain, has had to close two stores temporarily due to an employee being diagnosed with Covid-19. After deep sanitizing they reopen.

With the protests that have sprung up in the last week over "stay-at-home" restrictions, adding groceries and hardware stores would lead to increased demonstrations as Pedro47 has posted.

[political commentary removed]


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## jimf41 (Apr 20, 2020)

$1.00 says this thread is closed by days end.


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## WVBaker (Apr 20, 2020)

jimf41 said:


> $1.00 says this thread is closed by days end.



I believe you may be right but, we'll see.


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## Talent312 (Apr 20, 2020)

Let's avoid politics, shall we?

Trips to Walmart and the grocery are the highlight of our lives.
Most of our debates center around who gets to go and when.
The only other exciting thing in our lives is the mail delivery.


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## 1Kflyerguy (Apr 20, 2020)

I am not aware of any of the grocery stores near me having a pre-order / pickup option.  I have tried to schedule delivery multiple times, but so far have not found an available delivery slots.  Similar to Talent312, i enjoy going to the stores, so it does not really bother me that much.

The lack of available delivery slots just shows that the stores don't have the ability to staff up and offer this in major way.  Then if you ban customers from entering the stores, you would also stop 3rd party delivery services like Instacart, and the capacity is reduced even more.  If you add in the fact that some people don't have computer access or need to pay cash due to credit issues i don't see this happening anytime soon.


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## am1 (Apr 20, 2020)

Why even have grocery stores. Just deliver right from warehouses.  That has to be cheaper then having someone shop for you.


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## geekette (Apr 20, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> IMHO, if  you want a panic / riots in America just try to ban American from going to the grocery and hardware stores.


haven't we already seen the stampedes for TP and meat??

If this story came out yesterday, I would expect to see on my local news, again, masses trying to cram into stores today.


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## R.J.C. (Apr 20, 2020)

Panina said:


> Experts say it may be time for grocery stores to ban customers from coming inside
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/19/business/grocery-stores-coronavirus-pickup-delivery/index.html



"Experts" also said 2,000,000 people would die from this virus in the US alone. I don't trust a thing the "experts" say.


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## Beachclubmum (Apr 20, 2020)

Talent312 said:


> Let's avoid politics, shall we?
> 
> Trips to Walmart and the grocery are the highlight of our lives.
> Most of our debates center around who gets to go and when.
> The only other exciting thing in our lives is the mail delivery.



Don’t underestimate the excitement of (my personal weekly highlight) trash day!!


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## geekette (Apr 20, 2020)

I don't think one would have to be "an expert" to understand how bad this has gotten for grocery workers.   I think part of the problem is that it has been "an allowed" activity so many people have increased their number of trips, not decreased.   Then, management in some places not allowing masks, not supplying hand sanitizer, etc.   It became far too late to protect the front line workers and/or put requirements on customers (limit number in store, require masks, one person per cart...).  

I called them as the new petri dish after cruise ships docked.  I definitely did not have to have any credentials in retail management to see it.  Footage of lines around the Costco to get in were a telling indicator.


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## heathpack (Apr 20, 2020)

amycurl said:


> I'm not sure why me being in the store is less safe than an Instacart person being in the store. One person is one person. It's just outsourcing the risk to someone who feels they need the money, vs. being able to stay at home. The risk is the same; the difference is the socio-economic status of the person fulfilling the task. Unless there is something I'm missing....



What about our local restaurant owners?  Many are open for business, seem to really want people to come in and pick up takeout.  Of course that brings them into contact with others- coworkers, customers, delivery services- multiple times per day.

Is it a negative to patronize our local restaurants because other than the restaurant owners' and workers' socioeconomic status resulting in them needing the income, they could just stay home?

Or is it a positive to patronize our local restaurants to help them stay afloat right now, and keep the paydays happening?

I think most of us who seek to earn a paycheck do so because of our socioeconomic status- if I were independently wealthy, I probably would not hold a regular paycheck type of job myself.  I personally do not feel exploited by my work, even though it brings me into contact with many more people than I'd be in contact with if I stayed home.  Instead, I feel really lucky to have a steady paycheck.  

I've given some thought to exactly the point you've made, because I've been using Instacart lately.  My reason for avoiding a grocery store is not concern that I'll personally be infected but instead its concern that I have contact with too many people at work so I can't justify having any other contact with folks outside my own household right now, lest I be a source of exposure to others.  I agree with you the logic of decreasing the number of human exposures breaks down at some point.  But Instacart and grocery chains could/do work on minimizing risk to their employees and exactly how they conduct business is outside of my control.  All I can do is control my own variables while not being blind to the impact on others.


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## bogey21 (Apr 20, 2020)

Panina said:


> Experts say it may be time for grocery stores to ban customers from coming inside.



It's not going to happen...


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## Sugarcubesea (Apr 20, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I have become accustomed to curbside and delivery. However they would have to massively ramp up people to support this since we have discussed in other forums how everyone is having a terrible time securing delivery slots.



I have tried multiple times to have home delivery. I order with a delivery date 7-14 days out and then as the day approaches, the order is either cancelled or half of what I order is not available.  I now go out every 2 weeks during senior hour and get my groceries and have been able to purchase everything on my list.


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## heathpack (Apr 20, 2020)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I have tried multiple times to have home delivery. I order with a delivery date 7-14 days out and then as the day approaches, the order is either cancelled or half of what I order is not available.  I now go out every 2 weeks during senior hour and get my groceries and have been able to purchase everything on my list.



So interesting because I've had 4 Instacart orders so far.

The first two I chose an option called Fast and Flexible, which is a non-specific time for delivery within the next 5 days.  Both times I got my orders within 2-3 days.

Then I joined Instacart as a paid member and when I went to put my orders in, I was given lots of options for times starting the next day and extending a few days into the future.  I placed my orders on Thursday and chose a Sat delivery for one store (Aldi) and Sunday for the other (Costco).  But I could have had Friday deliveries if I wanted.  And both times, my shoppers were early.  My sense is that with both Fast and Flexible and scheduled deliveries, there's some degree of eagerness of the shoppers to grab my order.  But it really seems like signing up for a paid membership opened up earlier and more delivery times.

I've gotten around 90% of the items of my shopping list with each Instacart order so far.  I do list multiple alternatives sometimes and I'm flexible about what I can be flexible about.  But I've also had friends use Instacart quite successfully like I've done so far and then have them get a total dud of an order, one in which they get very few items on their list.  So I expect that will happen to me too at some point...


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## Panina (Apr 20, 2020)

heathpack said:


> So interesting because I've had 4 Instacart orders so far.
> 
> The first two I chose an option called Fast and Flexible, which is a non-specific time for delivery within the next 5 days.  Both times I got my orders within 2-3 days.
> 
> ...


I am finding now more slots opening.  I am a member. I am finding a 20% tip gets it so much faster.

Moms order in NYC was scheduled Wednesday. This morning a 5 hour slot opened and I changed it, within 5 minutes her order started. She got everything, a first.


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## geekette (Apr 20, 2020)

Panina said:


> I am finding now more slots opening.  I am a member. *I am finding a 20% tip gets it so much faster.*
> 
> Moms order in NYC was scheduled Wednesday. This morning a 5 hour slot opened and I changed in, within 5 minutes her order started. She got everything, a first.


Good on you!!!!

Also happy that your Mom is getting what she needs.   I'm sure that is a relief to you.


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## Panina (Apr 20, 2020)

bogey21 said:


> It's not going to happen...


Agree.  I thought no way too when I saw the article but thought it was interesting that it was even published at this point.


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## Old Hickory (Apr 20, 2020)

x3 skier said:


> I searched for a health “expert” in the article. Several worker “experts” and grocery owners. I may have missed it.
> 
> Cheers



When any sentence starts with "experts say..."


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## geekette (Apr 20, 2020)

Panina said:


> Agree.  I thought no way too when I saw the article but thought it was interesting that it was even published at this point.



Well, it's "content".


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## Panina (Apr 20, 2020)

geekette said:


> Good on you!!!!
> 
> Also happy that your Mom is getting what she needs.   I'm sure that is a relief to you.


She still wants to go to the stores.  Don’t know how much longer she will listen.  Says one way or another she will die.  

At 86 next week she says I am not going to stay in another year or two waiting for a vaccine. Staying in will kill me too. She has a good point. At her age mobility is important, deterioration happens without movement. No easy answers.

Complains she is alone but refuses to come stay with me.  I offered again to come get her.


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## heathpack (Apr 20, 2020)

Panina said:


> I am finding now more slots opening.  I am a member. I am finding a 20% tip gets it so much faster.
> 
> Moms order in NYC was scheduled Wednesday. This morning a 5 hour slot opened and I changed it, within 5 minutes her order started. She got everything, a first.



Can I order groceries for my Mom in NY with my membership?

I've been doing the 20% tip too.  I feel like they really deserve it and I assume they are shopping because they could really use the $ right now.


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## Panina (Apr 20, 2020)

heathpack said:


> Can I order groceries for my Mom in NY with my membership?
> 
> I've been doing the 20% tip too.  I feel like they really deserve it and I assume they are shopping because they could really use the $ right now.


Yes you can add an address or multiple to your membership.  I was actually surprised it let me.


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## WVBaker (Apr 20, 2020)

Panina said:


> She still wants to go to the stores.  Don’t know how much longer she will listen.  Says one way or another she will die.
> 
> At 86 next week she says I am not going to stay in another year or two waiting for a vaccine. Staying in will kill me too. She has a good point. At her age mobility is important, deterioration happens without movement. No easy answers.
> 
> Complains she is alone but refuses to come stay with me.  I offered again to come get her.



She sounds like a strong willed, independent woman and I wish her well. You're right, there are no easy answers.


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## "Roger" (Apr 20, 2020)

Just a quick reminder that in large areas of the country (mine included) Insticart is not available. Nor are the local stores geared up for curbside pickup.


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## Cornell (Apr 20, 2020)

I’m curious about something. If masks are as important as we have been told , why aren’t grocery workers or food preparers in restaurants required by departments of public health?


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## Mongoose (Apr 20, 2020)

I think the "New Normal" is going to look like everything getting back to normal for the 80% that are below the age of 60 and without chronic health conditions.  For these 80% this is really no different that the common seasonal flu.  New studies are showing that 25-50% of people with COVID-19 are asymptomatic and recover without any indicatations of illness.  The big change is going to be for the 20% that are in a high risk category.  For these individuals life is going to change dramatically unless they have proven immunity.  Its still not know if you can develop immunity to this from prior COVID-19 illness.  People wearing masks in public are going to be common place going forward.  Even in the workplace, unless they adapt to WAH.  We will also probably see free delivery of groceries for these folks.  I think we will be back to the new normal in 4-6 months.  Things will never be truly normal until a viable and safe vaccine is available.


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## Mongoose (Apr 20, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I’m curious about something. If masks are as important as we have been told , why aren’t grocery workers or food preparers in restaurants required by departments of public health?


They should.  It varries by company.  I think its now mandaotry for Kroger, at least it is for their CIty Market chanin in Western CO.  The N95 masks are true respirators and designed to protect the user.  All other masks are basically designed to protect everyone else from the Wearer.


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## tschwa2 (Apr 20, 2020)

I wish that they would limit shoppers to 2 with very few exceptions if you have 1 adult and multiple children with the understanding that the "group" needs to stay close together.  I see many 2 adult families be they mother and grandmother plus children or 2 partners plus children.  One adult should stay with the children either at home or in the car.  I don't think they mean to violate the 6 ft rule but with one adult in front of the cart and one in the back and children around this single group is taking up a lot of space and in almost every case invading others 6 ft bubble.  The children may or may not be wearing gloves but they often touch way more than what is being bought.  

A lot of older teens and twenties shop in groups of 2-4 spreading out as well.  Again I just think they don't realize how much space the group takes up.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 20, 2020)

tschwa2 said:


> The children may or may not be wearing gloves but they often touch way more than what is being bought.


Perhaps instead of a "You break it, you bought it" rule, we need one that is "You touched it, you bought it"


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## heathpack (Apr 20, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I’m curious about something. If masks are as important as we have been told , why aren’t grocery workers or food preparers in restaurants required by departments of public health?



They are in LA County


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## pedro47 (Apr 20, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I’m curious about something. If masks are as important as we have been told , why aren’t grocery workers or food preparers in restaurants required by departments of public health?


Thanks you,  not all employees in Lowes, Home Depot,  Walmart,  BJ Warehouse
KROGER,  and Food Lions were wearing face mask for their protection.  Now this was  as this past Saturday.


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## TravelTime (Apr 20, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I’m curious about something. If masks are as important as we have been told , why aren’t grocery workers or food preparers in restaurants required by departments of public health?



At our local market in Placer County, no one was wearing masks this week. I haven’t been in a big grocery store or retail store so I do not know about the rest.


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 20, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I’m curious about something. If masks are as important as we have been told , why aren’t grocery workers or food preparers in restaurants required by departments of public health?



They are in the SF Bay Area


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## Sea Six (Apr 20, 2020)

Our Publix is making up the rules as they go.  Started with the tape on the floor to mark off 6 ft spaces.  Then they said you have to wear a mask, which maybe half the people do.  Now they put arrows on the floor with blue tape to try and make the aisles one-way.   Nobody even notices the arrows, let alone go one way.  Chaos!


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## TravelTime (Apr 20, 2020)

I just heard this news about Safeway. This warehouse serves a huge region.









						At Safeway’s huge Tracy warehouse, 51 workers have coronavirus and one is dead
					

Three percent of the 1,700 workers at Safeway’s huge distribution hub have been...




					www.sfchronicle.com


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 20, 2020)

Sad to hear the news about so many sickened. We just learned the hard way about Safeway. We had a curbside order in for a week. Only got a few items on the list. The trip to the store was a waste.


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## presley (Apr 20, 2020)

Cornell said:


> I’m curious about something. If masks are as important as we have been told , why aren’t grocery workers or food preparers in restaurants required by departments of public health?


Required in all of San Diego County for all of them.


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## Bucky (Apr 20, 2020)

This pandemic is changing our everyday life’s in many many ways. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least bit to see grocery stores closed to the public except for pick up or delivery. Think about it? What logical reason is there to go into a grocery store now that they have their personal shoppers that will do everything for us. All they really have to do is increase their shopping assistants and cold/dry storage areas to store item pre delivery! For those without transportation or medical limitations they could use the delivery services that have sprung up since this all started what seems like ages ago but in fact has really only been 6-7 weeks ago! Years ago people couldn’t visualize retail stores and shopping centers going away but they are dropping everyday.


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## bbodb1 (Apr 20, 2020)

Bucky said:


> This pandemic is changing our everyday life’s in many many ways. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least bit to see grocery stores closed to the public except for pick up or delivery. Think about it? What logical reason is there to go into a grocery store now that they have their personal shoppers that will do everything for us. All they really have to do is increase their shopping assistants and cold/dry storage areas to store item pre delivery! For those without transportation or medical limitations they could use the delivery services that have sprung up since this all started what seems like ages ago but in fact has really only been 6-7 weeks ago! Years ago people couldn’t visualize retail stores and shopping centers going away but they are dropping everyday.



Given that your location is a quite large metropolitan area, changes like these might be possible (perhaps even practical) in your area.  In a more rural setting, restricting grocery stores in this manner will not work.  But to directly answer this question:



> ...What logical reason is there to go into a grocery store now that they have their personal shoppers that will do everything for us.


I still want as few people as possible touching/handling what I purchase.  I have the time and I still prefer to make the selections on what cans to select, produce looks best, etc.


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 20, 2020)

Unless they get curbside running smoothly and without delays. Many people will avoid the cost of delivery services which have higher grocery prices, delivery fees, tips. Instacart adds roughly 18% to my order in tips and fees that can be $18 on top of a $100 grocery bill. It's a premium people will pay now but not when this is over. People will still go to the store.


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## TravelTime (Apr 20, 2020)

After reading about all the problems with Instacart, I prefer to go into the grocery store and safely get what we need. If all the grocery stores stopped allowing people inside, Instacart would be completely overwhelmed and getting groceries would take a lot longer than a week. People would probably starve because not everyone can afford to make big grocery purchases all at once plus the delivery fee and 20% tip. It would cause a greater socioeconomic discrepancy as people with more means can afford to tip more, and shoppers will choose their orders first. Going to the grocery store allows people to bargain shop and make choices and trade offs that they can’t make with a shopper. I guess the grocery stores could start their own delivery services but I suspect they would be slammed too and they might need to charge more than Instacart since delivery is not their core business. I just do not see closing grocery stores to be a viable option. Curbside pickup might be a better option with no tip or delivery fee required. This would still cause issues with grocery stores needing to hire shoppers but it would be more democratic for the customers so the poor and lower middle class are not discriminated against by the extra costs. Frankly, even the middle class might be unable to to pay delivery fees and tips on top of the cost of groceries.


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## Cornell (Apr 20, 2020)

Yeah -  I put this in the same category as "organic food" - great if you have the financial means, but not everyone does.  Especially w/the current economic conditions.


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## pedro47 (Apr 20, 2020)

If you have a change please observe a personal shopper in your local grocery store. They just pick up the items. They do not check the expiration dates, check for damage cans or the quality of meats. IMO.


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## Cornell (Apr 20, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> If you have a change please observe a personal shopper in your local grocery store. They just pick up the items. They do not check the expiration dates, check for damage cans or the quality of meats. IMO.


That's not true.  My daughter is a grocery store shopper and her management trains them very well to look for all of these things.  The store management wants customers to be happy.


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## heathpack (Apr 20, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> If you have a change please observe a personal shopper in your local grocery store. They just pick up the items. They do not check the expiration dates, check for damage cans or the quality of meats. IMO.



Well I've had zero issues, all four of the shoppers Ive had have done a great job.

Perhaps they are motivated by the fact that you rate their performance after the fact, and you can change their tip after the fact.

But I haven't personally gotten any rotten produce, expired milk, dented cans etc.


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 20, 2020)

+1 Expiration dates and produce were my initial concerns however our shoppers have done a fantastic job. You can add comments to each item such as "Romaine with lots of dark leafy greens." They also will text you with substitutions for you to approve.

We ordered a roast chicken from Costco and it was still hot.

I am starting to see more delivery slots too.


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## heathpack (Apr 20, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> +1 Expiration dates and produce were my initial concerns however our shoppers have done a fantastic job. You can add comments to each item such as "Romaine with lots of dark leafy greens." They also will text you with substitutions for you to approve.
> 
> We even received a roast chicken from Costco and it was still hot.
> 
> I am starting to see more delivery slots too.



I’m sure you know this because you’ve used Instacart but for others who haven’t: you can also preselect acceptable substitutes in advance.  For example, I wanted plain nonfat Greek yogurt in my Aldi order but I was able to tell my shopper in advance what to substitute if that was unavailable, or to sub nothing at all.  So I listed the alternative item of plain whole milk Greek yogurt and that’s what I got.

It’s easy to do and they text you in real time so if you don’t like their substitute you can modify on the fly.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 20, 2020)

I would lose it if not being able to go to a grocery or hardware store.

Thankfully we still have farmers stores/markets opened here also, though I have not been to them yet. Was at a smaller hardware store today to buy paint and supplies to paint for my entry door.


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## Brett (Apr 20, 2020)

yeah, I have to see the produce and meats  before buying 
(don't believe the 'experts' !)


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## 1Kflyerguy (Apr 20, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> I just heard this news about Safeway. This warehouse serves a huge region.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Believe this warehouse serves the Safeway i shop at.  When i went to the store last Friday, the produce and dairy departments we almost completely bare...  I have never seen so little produce available.  Ultimately i had to make a second trip to a different chain.


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## pedro47 (Apr 20, 2020)

Ok, I asked for giveness about the personal grocery shopper's . Maybe it are the ones in our local stores,


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## amycurl (Apr 20, 2020)

There's also an equity issue here. Will we become a two-tier society where only the wealthy get to stay healthy because they can have their groceries delivered, and those that need the money, and take these jobs are thus are exposed more regularly to the virus because there is an increased demand for delivery services? As I've mentioned in other threads, my mother doesn't believe in outsourcing the risk to someone else, just because they need the work, and she doesn't. It's a justice issue for her.


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## TravelTime (Apr 20, 2020)

amycurl said:


> There's also an equity issue here. Will we become a two-tier society where only the wealthy get to stay healthy because they can have their groceries delivered, and those that need the money, and take these jobs are thus are exposed more regularly to the virus because there is an increased demand for delivery services? As I've mentioned in other threads, my mother doesn't believe in outsourcing the risk to someone else, just because they need the work, and she doesn't. It's a justice issue for her.



This is a big concern of mine. I think it is very cozy for people to stay at home and outsource the risk, while low paid workers do their shopping. Covid-19 is definitely showing we have a class system. Frankly, I prefer to go out and get my groceries and risk my own health than sit at home perfectly safe and risk someone else’s health.


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## Panina (Apr 20, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> This is a big concern of mine. I think it is very cozy for people to stay at home and outsource the risk, while low paid workers do their shopping. Covid-19 is definitely showing we have a class system. Frankly, I prefer to go out and get my groceries and risk my own health than sit at home perfectly safe and risk someone else’s health.


The reality is the shoppers decided to work most  probably because they need the money.  The only way there will be no shoppers is if no one orders that way.  Meanwhile generosity should be extremely high in tipping if you can afford it.  I tip generously because my take is they are working because they need the money.


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## Beachclubmum (Apr 20, 2020)

I work as a liaison with legal refugees in my city. Many get WIC and a very strict requirement is that you shop in person in order to use (and endorse) the coupons. Both the stores and the recipients will get in trouble if this rule isn’t followed.


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## TravelTime (Apr 20, 2020)

Panina said:


> The reality is the shoppers decided to work most  probably because they need the money.  The only way there will be no shoppers is if no one orders that way.  Meanwhile generosity should be extremely high in tipping if you can afford it.  I tip generously because my take is they are working because they need the money.



I agree, If you are going to outsource your shopping and your risk, then give a generous tip. At least 20%. More is even better.


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## Rolltydr (Apr 20, 2020)

heathpack said:


> Well I've had zero issues, all four of the shoppers Ive had have done a great job.
> 
> Perhaps they are motivated by the fact that you rate their performance after the fact, and you can change their tip after the fact.
> 
> But I haven't personally gotten any rotten produce, expired milk, dented cans etc.



I think we’ve used them 4 times now. The first time delivery took about 5 hours. The last three have been delivered in less than 2. We received one in less than an hour. We are very pleased. We have told them which substitute we wanted if our selection was not available and a couple of items that we did not want a substitute. I think once or twice they got a brand that we would not have selected but nothing we couldn’t live with. We live in suburban Birmingham and had never even thought about delivery so I’m not sure how prevalent it was here before the coronavirus SAH order. 

It’s not something we would use if we were able to go to the store but it’s nice to know the option is available if we need it due to illness or whatever.


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## Chrispee (Apr 20, 2020)

There will definitely be some interesting epidemiology to come with regards to socioeconomic status, political affiliation, religious affiliation etc.


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## Panina (Apr 20, 2020)

Beachclubmum said:


> I work as a liaison with legal refugees in my city. Many get WIC and a very strict requirement is that you shop in person in order to use (and endorse) the coupons. Both the stores and the recipients will get in trouble if this rule isn’t followed.


Same with the SNAP program which many seniors are on. NY tells them to stay home but you have to go in person to use it If one of the stores on the electronic program does not deliver in your area. No exceptions are being made for either program.  They should allow the stores to take the info on the phone At this time.


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## wackymother (Apr 20, 2020)

I would love if the groceries near me had curbside pickup. We're now relying on our little local grocery, which always did delivery anyway, and fortunately is fantastic. They're very used to picking and packing orders and then delivering them. I'm also very picky about my produce and meat and fish, but I've been able to just accept what they choose for me--it's all been excellent. The store itself is quite tight inside, so I'm not sure that it would be possible to maintain social distancing--although it is open for customers right now.


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## Rolltydr (Apr 20, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> This is a big concern of mine. I think it is very cozy for people to stay at home and outsource the risk, while low paid workers do their shopping. Covid-19 is definitely showing we have a class system. Frankly, I prefer to go out and get my groceries and risk my own health than sit at home perfectly safe and risk someone else’s health.



My wife and I are both in the at risk group. All of our deliveries have been by people who looked to be in their twenties. I have no way of knowing, but I assume they need the money or they wouldn’t be shopping and delivering groceries to people. I do tip generously, so they are making the money they need and my wife and I are able to stay at home as the medical experts and the governor are telling us to. I do not feel that we are contributing to a class system any more than anyone else that pays someone for personal services such as restaurant workers, hair stylists, manicurists, etc.


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## VacationForever (Apr 20, 2020)

amycurl said:


> There's also an equity issue here. Will we become a two-tier society where only the wealthy get to stay healthy because they can have their groceries delivered, and those that need the money, and take these jobs are thus are exposed more regularly to the virus because there is an increased demand for delivery services? As I've mentioned in other threads, my mother doesn't believe in outsourcing the risk to someone else, just because they need the work, and she doesn't. It's a justice issue for her.


This is a very good observation.  I was just thinking that since COVID-19 SIP, we pay significantly more for not-so-good produce and meat from online companies.  We have been told by our PCP that we are very risk and we must stay home.  We feel safer with our method of getting food and we can do so because we can afford to.  If we do not have the financial means, it means that we would have to go to the stores and increase risk of getting exposed to COVID-19.  But isn't that true of society?  Unless you live in a communist country where everyone's wealth is taken away and everyone gets equal ration except if you are part of the communist party then there are extra privileges, much like Animal Farm by George Orwell.


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## MrockStar (Apr 20, 2020)

amycurl said:


> There's also an equity issue here. Will we become a two-tier society where only the wealthy get to stay healthy because they can have their groceries delivered, and those that need the money, and take these jobs are thus are exposed more regularly to the virus because there is an increased demand for delivery services? As I've mentioned in other threads, my mother doesn't believe in outsourcing the risk to someone else, just because they need the work, and she doesn't. It's a justice issue  her.


Its possible, in the movie solent green only the wealthy could afford cigarettes booze and fresh strawberries , all considered luxury goods.


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## TravelTime (Apr 20, 2020)

While I agree that outsourcing groceries is a luxury and puts the shoppers at greater health risk, in reality, it is not that different than outsourcing other tasks. I already outsource cleaning my house, gardening and yard work, and pool work. If people need to work, then it is not a social justice issue to hire them. Otherwise they would be unemployed. We need some people to pay other people for services. This is what make the economy flourish In normal times.


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## Chrispee (Apr 20, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> While I agree that outsourcing groceries is a luxury and puts the shoppers at greater health risk, in reality, it is not that different than outsourcing other tasks.



The difference is that on any given regular day your houskeepers and landscapers aren't knowingly putting themselves at additional risk.  Although I agree that outsourcing grocery selection/delivery isn't a particularly egregious social justice issue, part of that is because those hungry enough to accept that work are generally younger and therefore at minimal risk for this particular pandemic.  Consider if the Covid-19 death rate were the same for 20 year olds as it is for 70 year olds.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had to stop and reflect on my privilege during the pandemic;  not living alone, having a reasonably sized house and yard, only losing a small percentage of my income, having plentiful outdoor nature experiences within walking distance, not having to take public transit, being young(ish) and in good mental and physical health etc.


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## TravelTime (Apr 20, 2020)

Chrispee said:


> The difference is that on any given regular day your houskeepers and landscapers aren't knowingly putting themselves at additional risk.  Although I agree that outsourcing grocery selection/delivery isn't a particularly egregious social justice issue, part of that is because those hungry enough to accept that work are generally younger and therefore at minimal risk for this particular pandemic.  Consider if the Covid-19 death rate were the same for 20 year olds as it is for 70 year olds.
> 
> I can't tell you the number of times I've had to stop and reflect on my privilege during the pandemic;  not living alone, having a reasonably sized house and yard, only losing a small percentage of my income, having plentiful outdoor nature experiences within walking distance, not having to take public transit, being young(ish) and in good mental and physical health etc.



Yes, we are privileged too. We are very lucky and blessed with many good things. Personally, I do not outsource groceries and I agree it is putting shoppers at greater health risk right now. I can also see that many people, myself included, are willing to take a health risk to keep working. I have shut down my office because it is the right thing to do but I would have no problem working right now in my office if it were allowed. My house cleaners, Gardner and pool guy are still working because they need the income. I am willing to keep paying them. It seems okay with me since I would do this under normal circumstances too.


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## Mongoose (Apr 20, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> Thanks you,  not all employees in Lowes, Home Depot,  Walmart,  BJ Warehouse
> KROGER,  and Food Lions were wearing face mask for their protection.  Now this was  as this past Saturday.


It may be a regional thing based on trends in community spread.  

Kroger’s Atlanta Division, which includes Georgia, Eastern Alabama and South Carolina, is adding new safety measures to help protect associates, including mandatory facial mask requirements.

The company says it has a supply of surgical masks in stock for associates to use.

Additionally, certain stores in the Atlanta Division will start pilot testing mandatory temperature checks at the start of each shift. The pilot tests will begin once the infrared thermometers, which are currently being shipped, arrive in the stores.


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## Bucky (Apr 22, 2020)

bogey21 said:


> It's not going to happen...



Its already happening! I just watched a clip on ABC where they were interviewing a Kroger exec. He said they are testing this concept in one store right now. It has been closed down for everything except pick up and delivery!

If they are able to get great personal shoppers and be able to deliver on demand, not just at certain time slots many days in advance, at no additional charge to us for pickup or a very low delivery charge, why does one need to go to a grocery store? Just because that’s the way we’ve always done it isn’t a good excuse.

i wouldn’t be surprised in the least bit In 20 yrs to see a grandfather telling his 5yr old GC about the good 9ld days of actually shopping in the stores! Life evolves.


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## WVBaker (Apr 22, 2020)

Welcome to "life" in the 21st century.

First, you have an "expert" with an estimate of over 260,000 deaths from Covid-19. Who later admits he may have been a bit wrong.

And now you have this.









						Coronavirus could have a deadlier second wave later this year, CDC director warns
					

The head of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is warning that a second wave of coronavirus could coincide with the start of flu season, proving to be even more devastating than the enduring COVID-19 pandemic.




					www.foxnews.com
				




Welcome to your world and have a good stay. While you can of course.


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## Cornell (Apr 22, 2020)

@WVBaker Love the air quotes around "life".


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## TravelTime (Apr 22, 2020)

If grocery stores start delivery, will full service gas make a comeback? I am not saying I want this to happen, just saying if no one wants to touch the gas pumps, maybe it will come back next. Maybe people will now be willing to pay more for gasoline so they can outsource the risk to someone else.


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## Cornell (Apr 22, 2020)

Perhaps we just all wear scuba gear full time so that our breathing is fully contained?


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## WVBaker (Apr 22, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Perhaps we just all wear scuba gear full time so that our breathing is fully contained?


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## Cornell (Apr 22, 2020)

@WVBaker See?!  My idea isn't so far-fetched after all!


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## Panina (Apr 22, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> If grocery stores start delivery, will full service gas make a comeback? I am not saying I want this to happen, just saying if no one wants to touch the gas pumps, maybe it will come back next. Maybe people will now be willing to pay more for gasoline so they can outsource the risk to someone else.


I always loved full service and would pay extra for it.  It would employ people.

I do not find pumping gas myself too risky, I  just put on gloves and throw away when finished.


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## Passepartout (Apr 22, 2020)

A little humor: Here in Salt Lake City, they put "DO NOT TOUCH" stickers on the 'Walk' buttons at intersections. People stole the stickers so they're replacing them.


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## Cornell (Apr 22, 2020)

Passepartout said:


> A little humor: Here in Salt Lake City, they put "DO NOT TOUCH" stickers on the 'Walk' buttons at intersections. People stole the stickers so they're replacing them.


The other humorous thing is the messages that Bill de Blasio's got on his  social distancing "reporting app".  You can google if you'd like (in the NY Post).  I won't put the link b/c I don't feel like getting my hand-slapped for the content of the article.


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## bbodb1 (Apr 22, 2020)

Cornell said:


> The other humorous thing is the messages that Bill de Blasio's got on his  social distancing "reporting app".  You can google if you'd like (in the NY Post).  I won't put the link b/c I don't feel like getting my hand-slapped for the content of the article.



Well, I have to admit that "dropping the groundhog" was attention grabbing.....


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## Brett (Apr 22, 2020)

Cornell said:


> The other humorous thing is the messages that Bill de Blasio's got on his  social distancing "reporting app".  You can google if you'd like (in the NY Post).  I won't put the link b/c I don't feel like getting my hand-slapped for the content of the article.



it's probably google and apple
https://www.wired.com/story/apple-google-social-distancing-maps-privacy/

for people to avoid crowds  .... or maybe those that dislike social distancing head in the opposite direction


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## "Roger" (Apr 22, 2020)

There is a bit of back to the future in this for me. When I grew up in a fairly rural area, supermarkets were just beginning. My mother would do most of her shopping at a local grocery store. About half of the time, she would call in an order and it would be delivered sometime that day. Never thought that I would see that again.


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## geoand (Apr 22, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Perhaps we just all wear scuba gear full time so that our breathing is fully contained?


It’s been over 40 years since I scubad. One tank was good for around 1/2 hour AND the tank was heavy


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## Cornell (Apr 22, 2020)

@geoand Well, so much for my brilliant idea!!!!!! I guess I won't be saving the world, after all.


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## bogey21 (Apr 22, 2020)

Bucky said:


> Its already happening! I just watched a clip on ABC where they were interviewing a Kroger exec. He said they are testing this concept in one store right now. It has been closed down for everything except pick up and delivery!



A test at one Kroger Store during the current emergency is no where near implementation nationwide once the current situation is behind us...

Just think of lost sales on all the impulse items people buy...

George


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 22, 2020)

In rural America, there are few chains of grocery stores, like near me. There simply is no delivery, and, no pickup available at these smaller stores. I suppose there could be, just saying it's not even an option. Certainly no "fancy" online ordering. I can't imagine how long it would take them to offer that service. So, we have to go into the store. We simply go when there is no one else there, here, that's "senior hour". Where we live, there's almost no one in the store at 7AM. that's the best we can do. I could drive a long way and eventually get to a place that offers pickup. But then one may need to purchase gas, etc. while traveling.

We did senior hour at Walgreens yesterday for some supplies we needed, and, there was 1 worker and no one else in the store.


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## PigsDad (Apr 22, 2020)

bogey21 said:


> A test at one Kroger Store during the current emergency is no where near implementation nationwide once the current situation is behind us...
> 
> Just think of lost sales on all the impulse items people buy...


I agree.  Also, think of all the additional staff each store would need to employ.  When you think about the average number of people that are in the store at a given time, the grocery store staff would have to duplicate the same amount of effort each shopper does.  Yes, they would be a bit more efficient, but the staff would need to be huge.  Add the cost of that labor to the price of the groceries, and that would put an even bigger strain on the lower income families.

Ideas like this seem to come from the privileged with no thought to the common person.

Kurt


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## Sea Six (Apr 22, 2020)

Maybe the stores will bring back the milk-man (among other things)


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## Luanne (Apr 22, 2020)

Sea Six said:


> Maybe the stores will bring back the milk-man (among other things)


I remember having milk delivered to our door in glass bottles.  I think I also remember that my mom would put the empty glass bottles out for them to pick up and re use.  We also got bread delivered.  The Helms Bakery truck would come by (don't remember how often).  Mom would buy their whole wheat bread, and for a treat sometimes she'd get their oatmeal cookies.


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## bbodb1 (Apr 22, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> I agree.  Also, think of all the additional staff each store would need to employ.  When you think about the average number of people that are in the store at a given time, the grocery store staff would have to duplicate the same amount of effort each shopper does.  Yes, they would be a bit more efficient, but the staff would need to be huge.  Add the cost of that labor to the price of the groceries, and that would put an even bigger strain on the lower income families.
> 
> Ideas like this seem to come from the privileged with no thought to the common person.
> 
> Kurt


...or perhaps the heavily urban forgets about the rest of the country...


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## Sea Six (Apr 22, 2020)

There are so many regular staples we could have delivered besides just milk.  Given the right neighborhood!


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## Sea Six (Apr 22, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> ...or perhaps the heavily urban forgets about the rest of the country...


Can't please everybody.


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## bbodb1 (Apr 22, 2020)

Luanne said:


> I remember having milk delivered to our door in glass bottles.  I think I also remember that my mom would put the empty glass bottles out for them to pick up and re use.  We also got bread delivered.  The Helms Bakery truck would come by (don't remember how often).  Mom would buy their whole wheat bread, and for a treat sometimes she'd get their oatmeal cookies.


And, ohhhh the smell from the bakery in the morning as they started baking their goods for the day......

Oh my.  There are few things in life more pleasurable than the smell of a bakery..


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## Luanne (Apr 22, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> And, ohhhh the smell from the bakery in the morning as they started baking their goods for the day......
> 
> Oh my.  There are few things in life more pleasurable than the smell of a bakery..


I fondly remember one of my school field trips in elementary school was to that bakery.  I was so hoping we'd get a sample at the end of the tour.  Nope.

In the San Francisco Bay Area I used to take a route to work (or somewhere) and pass by a large commercial bakery.  If you timed it right you could smell the bread baking.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 22, 2020)

I don't know why grocery stores would do this, when we are getting to the end of the virus for now.  I am thinking this is a bit like closing the barn door after the horse escaped.


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## Luanne (Apr 22, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I don't know why grocery stores would do this, when we are getting to the end of the virus for now.  I am thinking this is a bit like closing the barn door after the horse escaped.


What makes you think we are getting to the end of the virus?  Our governor just extended our stay at home order through May 15.  I do know that Colorado is going to start opening up businesses, and I still question why nail and hair salons and tattoo parlors are among the first to open up.


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## MrockStar (Apr 22, 2020)

Luanne said:


> What makes you think we are getting to the end of the virus?  Our governor just extended our stay at home order through May 15.  I do know that Colorado is going to start opening up businesses, and I still question why nail and hair salons and tattoo parlors are among the first to open up.


Because you want to look your best on your way the hospital.


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## louisianab (Apr 22, 2020)

Our local, small, family owned rural market- mostly fresh veggies and a meat counter had zero online ordering or phone ordering or pickup 1 month ago. Now they have online, curbside, pickup, phone orders and are expanding every day. They are absolutely rolling with this and learning new things every day. They are not the only store in town, but they cannot compete with Walmart or Meijer. Hopefully others can do the same. Resilience is a great American trait. I'm proud to see it. 

As far as shoppers go, it is also something to ponder - Walmart employees do the "walmart grocery pickup" so they are already in the store working and hopefully are benefit eligible employees. Grocery stores that use Shipt or Instacart as the instore branded store pickup are using independent contractors who rely on tips (and presumptively 1099 forms for their taxes).


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## Sea Six (Apr 22, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I don't know why grocery stores would do this, when we are getting to the end of the virus for now.  I am thinking this is a bit like closing the barn door after the horse escaped.


The grocery stores don't have to do it.  There are already several services offering delivery.  Go on line, order your stuff, here it comes


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## BJRSanDiego (Apr 22, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Perhaps we just all wear scuba gear full time so that our breathing is fully contained?



First, I admit that even the experts differ with their opinions of the modes of transmission.  There is a lot that is not yet known.

But something that I had read earlier was that SARS transmitted in some cases through diarrhea as an aerosol.  Yeah, I know that this is pretty gross.  Yesterday I read a somewhat humorous article of transmission through passing gas or flatulence.  I don't know if it was meant to just be humor or was serious.  But that made me think that anything that we smell comes from molecules or particles.  The concept that when we smell something that we are actually taking in airborne molecules or particles from other people or objects.  This was drilled into me when I was wearing an N95 mask while sanding a piece of aromatic red cedar.  I was creating a lot of fine dust but I couldn't smell the cedar (I have an allergy to some wood dust including cedar).  Then when I was finished for the day and took off the respirator/mask, the odor really hit me.  I was shocked that the N95 mask/respirator was that effective.  Also, it made me think about the size of the particles that created the smell.  So, the mask was keeping me from smelling the majority of the particles even though the mask is most effective on particles over 1/2 micron.  Covid-19 virus is supposedly a bit smaller (perhaps 0.2 microns IIRC) and may go through an N95 respirator/mask.  So, even a mask might not protect us from another person's flatulence.


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## Bucky (Apr 23, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> I agree.  Also, think of all the additional staff each store would need to employ.  When you think about the average number of people that are in the store at a given time, the grocery store staff would have to duplicate the same amount of effort each shopper does.  Yes, they would be a bit more efficient, but the staff would need to be huge.  Add the cost of that labor to the price of the groceries, and that would put an even bigger strain on the lower income families.
> 
> Ideas like this seem to come from the privileged with no thought to the common person.
> 
> Kurt



i think you are wrong on the additional staff needed. First of all you wouldn’t need cashiers since the personal shopper in our stores also ring up their carts. How many people are in the store on a daily basis doing nothing but stocking shelves and produce and meat, etc? All of these people could be directed to doing nothing but filling orders from the warehouse. No stocking of shelves needed. Current shelving area could be turned into more warehouse and cold storage area. Many ways to make this work and save the company money.

The one thing I am certain of is that there will always be change. This concept will probably  happen at some point in time. Probably not in my lifetime but one never knows. The concept of leaving things like they are will not last. CEO’s are always looking at cost cutting measures and to a lesser extent how to create additional sales.

i don’t see a connection between this and the privileged at all. That thought alone is scary. It’s called evolution of a business concept. People that don’t have their heads buried in the ground will understand. They may not like it. I don’t like it. But, they will understand that things change. There have been tons of things that have changed in my 70 years but I never blamed them on the privileged!


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## WVBaker (Apr 23, 2020)

Sea Six said:


> Can't please everybody.


It's funny how so few words, say so much about a person.


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## bbodb1 (Apr 23, 2020)

@Bucky - I was thinking about your post a bit.  Let's assume for a moment a grocery store did indeed close to walk in customers and turn entirely to the personal shopper model of order fulfillment. In that case, let's look a bit further at the following:   



Bucky said:


> i think you are wrong on the additional staff needed. First of all you wouldn’t need cashiers since the personal shopper in our stores also ring up their carts. How many people are in the store on a daily basis doing nothing but stocking shelves and produce and meat, etc? All of these people could be directed to doing nothing but filling orders from the warehouse. *No stocking of shelves needed. Current shelving area could be turned into more warehouse and cold storage area. Many ways to make this work and save the company money.*



I see your point and would hope any grocer (or company) would find ways to reuse existing employees.  But the thought that crossed my mind is the (re)stocking function would still be needed IF the grocer continued to offer the same (or nearly the same) items for sale they did prior to such a conversion.  Thinking about all of the items a grocer currently stocks and how many of those items take up very little shelf space, where and how do you hold these items for sale and how do you keep your held items in an order where they can quickly and easily be accessed?  The current method of stocking would have to be continued for a good number of items I would think for quick and efficient retrieval when purchased.    

Extending this a bit further, I think it might be reasonable to conclude a grocer would want to trim the variety of items offered for this very reason.



Bucky said:


> The one thing I am certain of is that there will always be change. This concept will probably happen at some point in time. Probably not in my lifetime but one never knows. The concept of leaving things like they are will not last. CEO’s are always looking at cost cutting measures and to a lesser extent how to create additional sales.



Absolutely agreed on this - change is a constant.  Even in grocery stores where there has been very little change in how merchandise is staged for sale, there have been considerable changes at the register / check out, the departments offered within a store and space allocation (use) within a store.   



Bucky said:


> i don’t see a connection between this and the privileged at all. That thought alone is scary. It’s called evolution of a business concept. People that don’t have their heads buried in the ground will understand. They may not like it. I don’t like it. But, they will understand that things change. There have been tons of things that have changed in my 70 years but I never blamed them on the privileged!



I do think IF this approach takes root it will most likely happen in heavily urban area primarily.  When I reread the article, there seemed to be more of a futuristic (that might be happening now) POV to me.  

Interesting points and thoughts to consider here (especially since I do the grocery shopping).


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## dioxide45 (Apr 23, 2020)

In the end, we really shouldn't BAN anything. If it makes economic sense for a store to go to delivery/pickup only and it helps increase their bottom line, it should be their decision to do so. If they decide that it is safer for their employees, they can choose to do so, but they better be prepared to make sure that they can still be competitive against the grocer across the street that still allows customers to come in and browse. In a free marketplace, the only person mandating anything should the customer. There may be stores that go to delivery/pickup only and others that don't. Customers that like one over the other will shop accordingly.


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## TravelTime (Apr 23, 2020)

This coronavirus health crisis will end at some point in the not too distant future. I do not see grocery stores completely redoing their business model for a short term crisis. The reason I think delivery is for people with extra disposable income because it costs a lot more money between the delivery fee and the tip of up to 15%-20%. Any lower tip seems inappropriate and shoppers will not want your order. I do not see grocery stores offering delivery for free. This is a labor intensive service and requires cars and driving and a lot of time to do the shopping and then drive back and forth from the grocery store. I suspect their total costs would go up if they added delivery services instead of outsourcing it to Instacart. They still need to stock the shelves. They still need cashiers to ring up the orders. Plus they will need to hire shoppers and possibly purchase cars if these are employees and not independent contractors. Worker's comp goes way up when you have employees working outside of the business. Right now, they are mostly outsourcing it to Instacart. I can see grocery stores continuing to offer delivery as a service option in the future (just like they offered it before the pandemic) but I do not envision grocery stores closing permanently to the public. Some people will want the delivery service and be willing to pay extra. Others prefer to do their shopping in person.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 23, 2020)

Luanne said:


> What makes you think we are getting to the end of the virus?  Our governor just extended our stay at home order through May 15.  I do know that Colorado is going to start opening up businesses, and I still question why nail and hair salons and tattoo parlors are among the first to open up.


I question that too.  Maybe our governor has relatives with these businesses.  Tattoo parlors hardly seem like necessary services.  

We have flattened the curve.  I watch the news.  The country has to open up soon; otherwise, we are going to have far more suicides than virus victims.  I feel certain this was not as bad as it seemed.   Is the cure worse than the disease?


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## Panina (Apr 23, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> This coronavirus health crisis will end at some point in the not too distant future. I do not see grocery stores completely redoing their business model for a short term crisis. The reason I think delivery is for the wealthier folks is because it costs a lot more money between the delivery fee and the tip of up to 15%-20%. Any lower tip seems inappropriate and shoppers will not want your order. I do not see grocery stores offering delivery for free. This is a labor intensive service and requires cars and driving and a lot of time to do the shopping and then drive back and forth from the grocery store. I suspect their total costs would go up if they added delivery services instead of outsourcing it to Instacart. They still need to stock the shelves. They still need cashiers to ring up the orders. Plus they will need to hire shoppers and possibly purchase cars if these are employees and not independent contractors. Worker's comp goes way up when you have employees working outside of the business. Right now, they are mostly outsourcing it to Instacart. I can see grocery stores continuing to offer delivery as a service option in the future (just like they offered it before the pandemic) but I do not envision grocery stores closing permanently to the public. Some people will want the delivery service and be willing to pay extra. Others prefer to do their shopping in person.


I am not sure if it just for the wealthier folks as I am not wealthy and will probably keep ordering this way.  Why?  Because I have no impulse buys and thus do not buy unhealthy foods that I should not be eating anyway, keeping my bill lower then if I went to the store.  This more then covers the additional costs in hiring and tipping the shopper and someone will have a job.


----------



## TravelTime (Apr 23, 2020)

Panina said:


> I am not sure if it just for the wealthier folks as I am not wealthy and will probably keep ordering this way.  Why?  Because I have no impulse buys and thus do not buy unhealthy foods that I should not be eating anyway, keeping my bill lower then if I went to the store.  This more then covers the additional costs in hiring and tipping the shopper and someone will have a job.



Yes, I am sure there are some folks who will value the delivery service and continue to use it longer term. 

I did not mean wealthy. I said "wealthier," meaning not the low income or lower middle class folks. Even some middle class and upper middle class folks will not want to pay up to 20% extra for groceries. Maybe I will update that word in my post so it does not imply the rich.


----------



## Luanne (Apr 23, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I question that too.  Maybe our governor has relatives with these businesses.  Tattoo parlors hardly seem like necessary services.
> 
> We have flattened the curve.  I watch the news.  The country has to open up soon; otherwise, we are going to have far more suicides than virus victims.  I feel certain this was not as bad as it seemed.   Is the cure worse than the disease?


The country will open up again.  I guess "soon" is relative.  And when it opens it will hopefully be in a phased approach.  New Mexico is flattening the curve, we've done better than many other neighboring states, but our governor is still being cautious.  Not everyone is happy about that. But some of us are very glad for what she's done.

When you say it's "not as bad as it seemed" I question that.  I have friends who had family members die alone as no family could be with them.  The disease spread rapidly, and currently there is no vaccine.  Maybe the numbers aren't what were originally projected, but it's still very, very bad.


----------



## Rolltydr (Apr 23, 2020)

W


TravelTime said:


> This coronavirus health crisis will end at some point in the not too distant future. I do not see grocery stores completely redoing their business model for a short term crisis. The reason I think delivery is for people with extra disposable income because it costs a lot more money between the delivery fee and the tip of up to 15%-20%. Any lower tip seems inappropriate and shoppers will not want your order. I do not see grocery stores offering delivery for free. This is a labor intensive service and requires cars and driving and a lot of time to do the shopping and then drive back and forth from the grocery store. I suspect their total costs would go up if they added delivery services instead of outsourcing it to Instacart. They still need to stock the shelves. They still need cashiers to ring up the orders. Plus they will need to hire shoppers and possibly purchase cars if these are employees and not independent contractors. Worker's comp goes way up when you have employees working outside of the business. Right now, they are mostly outsourcing it to Instacart. I can see grocery stores continuing to offer delivery as a service option in the future (just like they offered it before the pandemic) but I do not envision grocery stores closing permanently to the public. Some people will want the delivery service and be willing to pay extra. Others prefer to do their shopping in person.


What do you define as the “not too distant future”? The scientific and medical consensus seems to be that since there are no proven medications for treatment and a vaccine is at least 12-18 months away, we could be in some form of social distancing for several more months. It seems to me that most of their warnings since January have been pretty much in line with what has happened. In the grand scheme of history, 12-18 months is short-term, but it is long enough to bring about some pretty drastic changes moving forward.


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## TravelTime (Apr 23, 2020)

Rolltydr said:


> W
> 
> What do you define as the “not too distant future”? The scientific and medical consensus seems to be that since there are no proven medications for treatment and a vaccine is at least 12-18 months away, we could be in some form of social distancing for several more months. It seems to me that most of their warnings since January have been pretty much in line with what has happened. In the grand scheme of history, 12-18 months is short-term, but it is long enough to bring about some pretty drastic changes moving forward.



I was thinking a maximum of 12-18 months for things to start to return to normal. That is short term to me. But remember we will not be completely shut down for 12-18 months. In the next few months, non-essential businesses will gradually start re-opening. With social distancing, you can still go out to almost every place. It is the shut downs that are the problem.


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## Brett (Apr 23, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I question that too.  Maybe our governor has relatives with these businesses.  Tattoo parlors hardly seem like necessary services.
> 
> We have flattened the curve.  I watch the news.  The country has to open up soon; otherwise, we are going to have far more suicides than virus victims.  I feel certain this was not as bad as it seemed.   Is the cure worse than the disease?



"cure worse than the disease"  
"more suicides than virus victims"  .... where I have I heard those phrases?  

But sure, every day in lock down prolongs the recession


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## DaveNV (Apr 23, 2020)

A friend who lives in Puerto Vallarta says they're limiting shoppers in grocery stores to one person now. Couples can't enter together.  I guess they're taking the social distancing thing very seriously.

Dave


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## TravelTime (Apr 23, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I question that too.  Maybe our governor has relatives with these businesses.  Tattoo parlors hardly seem like necessary services.
> 
> We have flattened the curve.  I watch the news.  The country has to open up soon; otherwise, we are going to have far more suicides than virus victims.  I feel certain this was not as bad as it seemed.   Is the cure worse than the disease?



Tattoo parlors are probably more essential than world wrestling.


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## geekette (Apr 23, 2020)

Are these curve-flattenings based on hospitalizations, intubations, or deaths?  If you live in an area without widespread testing, case count is meaningless.  Suddenly, 'the peak' we allegedly had more than a week ago is projected for the future.  Sure, our case trajectory is down, but that is a function of less testing.  Our daily deaths continue to increase.


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## JanT (Apr 23, 2020)

Yep, I remember that very clearly myself.  Also, they had the best glazed donuts EVER!  I miss those days!



Luanne said:


> I remember having milk delivered to our door in glass bottles.  I think I also remember that my mom would put the empty glass bottles out for them to pick up and re use.  We also got bread delivered.  The Helms Bakery truck would come by (don't remember how often).  Mom would buy their whole wheat bread, and for a treat sometimes she'd get their oatmeal cookies.


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## geekette (Apr 23, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> Tattoo parlors are probably more essential than world wrestling.


Heck, I won't even have an invasive procedure in a doctor's office or hospital right now.  Cannot imagine trotting down to the strip mall to enjoy needling.

At least with wrestling, it's 2 people sweating and breathing on each other.  If those 2 people are ok with it, I won't object.   But the trainers and refs, I can't imagine they want to be involved.  

I can only hope that enough people Just Say No to prevent unnecessarily risky stuff from happening.  But, money is a powerful motivator for some.  Powerful enough to get over their fear of death.


----------



## Brett (Apr 23, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> Tattoo parlors are probably more essential than world wrestling.



maybe,  I don't know if my friends and neighbors wrestle -  I'm not into wrestling


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## Old Hickory (Apr 23, 2020)

The annual cold and flu have no proven medications nor vaccines.   Cold/Flu medicines are to treat your conditions and do not cure the viruses.    There is no scientific and medical consensus related to C-19, that is why they are using models to predict.   The early models using data from China are now proven to be false.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 23, 2020)

If you all think not having a job is not a determiner of mental health, you aren't seeing the devastation this is causing to others.  Try to think of the human factor a bit.  Retired people still get their checks, but working people need theirs.  Printing money isn't going to fix anything.  A job gives people self esteem.  Once a person loses that job, self esteem suffers.  Dr. Phil has been vocal about this issue.   

Landlords cannot evict people for not paying rent, yet landlords have payments to make.  I feel for everyone, including those who have lost family members to this disease.  

Agree with Old Hickory.  the data from China was not accurate.


----------



## Old Hickory (Apr 23, 2020)

geekette said:


> I can only hope that enough people Just Say No to prevent unnecessarily risky stuff from happening.  But, money is a powerful motivator for some.  Powerful enough to get over their fear of death.



What you might be calling unnecessarily risky stuff just might be someone's livelihood.   We all live unnecessarily risky lives in order to stay alive.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 23, 2020)

Old Hickory said:


> What you might be calling unnecessarily risky stuff just might be someone's livelihood.   We all live unnecessarily risky lives in order to stay alive.


Firefighters walk into burning buildings; cops walk up to car windows without knowing who they pulled over; paramedics show up to help the afflicted.  I agree with the above post.  Being a crane operator is scary and dangerous, running machinery is dangerous, and getting behind the wheel of a car can often be the most dangerous thing you do that day, depending on weather or drunks on the road.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 23, 2020)

geekette said:


> Are these curve-flattenings based on hospitalizations, intubations, or deaths?  If you live in an area without widespread testing, case count is meaningless.  Suddenly, 'the peak' we allegedly had more than a week ago is projected for the future.  Sure, our case trajectory is down, but that is a function of less testing.  Our daily deaths continue to increase.


What I am now noticing is a narrative that is trending away from just flattening the curve more to eliminating any and all risk of spreading the virus. It now isn't enough to just flatten the curve. At the beginning social distancing was to flatten the curve so not to overwhelm the healthcare system. In many parts of the country, they got nowhere near maxing out the capacity of the system. So it worked, but was it too much? Because social distancing is working, now it seems that we need to continue on the same path or even more restrictions to prevent any and all spread. We can't even comprehend to open up now until there is a vaccine. There is no guarantee that will even be 100% effective and widespread use is probably 18 months away. Shouldn't they slowly loosen restrictions to get to a point where the healthcare isn't overwhelmed? It seems social distancing works to prevent spread, but it has drawbacks in that it draws out the economic hardship so much longer.


----------



## TravelTime (Apr 23, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> If you all think not having a job is not a determiner of mental health, you aren't seeing the devastation this is causing to others.  Try to think of the human factor a bit.  Retired people still get their checks, but working people need theirs.  Printing money isn't going to fix anything.  A job gives people self esteem.  Once a person loses that job, self esteem suffers.  Dr. Phil has been vocal about this issue.
> 
> Landlords cannot evict people for not paying rent, yet landlords have payments to make.  I feel for everyone, including those who have lost family members to this disease.
> 
> Agree with Old Hickory.  the data from China was not accurate.



I totally agree with you about jobs being a huge factor for mental health. I have been voicing my concerns about unemployment and bankruptcies for the past 6 weeks since the SIP started in California. However, talking about the economic impact has been criticized by some as insensitive and putting profits before lives. I do not see it that way. I think both are equally important due to the human factor. They both are devastating. I feel for everyone who has lost their family members to Covid as well as the people who have lost their jobs, livelihood and small businesses. I feel a little less bad about the big companies but I still feel bad for their employees who are suffering as a result of this crisis.


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## TravelTime (Apr 23, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> What I am now noticing is a narrative that is trending away from just flattening the curve more to eliminating any and all risk of spreading the virus. It now isn't enough to just flatten the curve. At the beginning social distancing was to flatten the curve so not to overwhelm the healthcare system. In many parts of the country, they got nowhere near maxing out the capacity of the system. So it worked, but was it too much? Because social distancing is working, now it seems that we need to continue on the same path or even more restrictions to prevent any and all spread. We can't even comprehend to open up now until there is a vaccine. There is no guarantee that will even be 100% and widespread use is probably 18 months away. Shouldn't they slowly loosen restrictions to get to a point where the healthcare isn't overwhelmed? It seems social distancing works to prevent spread, but it has drawbacks in that it draws out the economic hardship so much longer.



If the government loosens the restrictions too non-chalantly, then it is like them saying they were wrong about the near total shut down of the economy. The politicians now have a self interest in this being really bad and looking like the heroes because SIP/SAH saved millions of lives.


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## Rolltydr (Apr 23, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> I was thinking a maximum of 12-18 months for things to start to return to normal. That is short term to me. But remember we will not be completely shut down for 12-18 months. In the next few months, non-essential businesses will gradually start re-opening. With social distancing, you can still go out to almost every place. It is the shut downs that are the problem.


I agree to some extent, but many of those businesses will be operating in a different way.

I understand wanting to feel safe in the known rather than anxious in the unknown. However, it surprises me that so many want to get back to “business as usual” rather than adapting to the new circumstances and improving how we make, distribute, sell, and deliver products and services. We Americans talk about American ingenuity, and we are seeing some of it during this pandemic, but we have some very loud voices wanting to get back to the same way we were doing it before. Imho, those that adapt, innovate, and change will lead us out of this recession/depression.


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## DaveNV (Apr 23, 2020)

geekette said:


> I can only hope that enough people Just Say No to prevent unnecessarily risky stuff from happening.  But, money is a powerful motivator for some.  Powerful enough to get over their fear of death.



Don't discount the immortal mentality of "It can't happen to me" or "I won't get it." Some people are convinced they're immune, at least, until they catch it. 

Dave


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## TravelTime (Apr 23, 2020)

Rolltydr said:


> I agree to some extent, but many of those businesses will be operating in a different way.
> 
> I understand wanting to feel safe in the known rather than anxious in the unknown. However, it surprises me that so many want to get back to “business as usual” rather than adapting to the new circumstances and improving how we make, distribute, sell, and deliver products and services. We Americans talk about American ingenuity, and we are seeing some of it during this pandemic, but we have some very loud voices wanting to get back to the same way we were doing it before. Imho, those that adapt, innovate, and change will lead us out of this recession/depression.



I do not see grocery delivery service to be an innovation. It existed for many years before now. It is not new. People are only using it due to fear of going outside of their homes. If the risk and fear go away, why not go back to in person grocery shopping. The vast majority of people are still going into the grocery stores themselves anyway. If grocery stores did not shut down during the SIP/SAH orders, then why would they need to do it when the risk lessens?

On the other hand, I do think many changes will be better and some may remain. That is being discussed in the predictions of change thread.


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## geekette (Apr 23, 2020)

Old Hickory said:


> What you might be calling unnecessarily risky stuff just might be someone's livelihood.   We all live unnecessarily risky lives in order to stay alive.


Sure, but professions that are inherently risky, are inherently risky, and those taking those jobs understand it.  The dude stocking shelves at the grocery store never imagined his life would be threated by an invisible threat on the job.  His was not a risky job.  Until it became one with the pandemic and cohorts get sick and die.  

My office job would no longer be safe with all the people crammed into cubes in a small space.  Suddenly, that job becomes risky by showing up for it.  

We aren't talking about the same things.  Driving a car has a certain amount of risk, but right now, if I add one person not from my household, the risks increase.   It doesn't really matter if the crap doesn't kill me, being laid out for 3 weeks is bad for anyone.   If it's another 2 weeks on a vent plus time in ICU, well, I don't like that risk.  Even if odds are, that won't be me, the risk remains that it could be me.  I don't feel lucky enough to be sure to dodge death in this.  Any of us could be a stat.  

My identity is not tied up in my work.  One would hope that those home with family would realize that their people are more important than their jobs.  but, it's an individual thing.  We aren't all defined by the widgets we produce.


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## Cornell (Apr 23, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> If you all think not having a job is not a determiner of mental health, you aren't seeing the devastation this is causing to others.  Try to think of the human factor a bit.  Retired people still get their checks, but working people need theirs.  Printing money isn't going to fix anything.  A job gives people self esteem.  Once a person loses that job, self esteem suffers.  Dr. Phil has been vocal about this issue.
> 
> Landlords cannot evict people for not paying rent, yet landlords have payments to make.  I feel for everyone, including those who have lost family members to this disease.
> 
> Agree with Old Hickory.  the data from China was not accurate.


A job is about so much more than money.  So much more.


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## LMD (Apr 23, 2020)

I have been on one store (with a mask) in the past  5 weeks. Curbside pick up is awesome!! Why put myself at any unnecessary risk if I don't have to?


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## LMD (Apr 23, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I have become accustomed to curbside and delivery. However they would have to massively ramp up people to support this since we have discussed in other forums how everyone is having a terrible time securing delivery slots.


I have been doing curbside with Walmart. The secret.....slots open up late at night and early in the morning. Just keep checking back. I have been able to get same day pick-up or usually within 1-2 days.


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## Rolltydr (Apr 23, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> I do not see grocery delivery service to be an innovation. It existed for many years before now. It is not new. People are only using it due to fear of going outside of their homes. If the risk and fear go away, why not go back to in person grocery shopping. The vast majority of people are still going into the grocery stores themselves anyway. If grocery stores did not shut down during the SIP/SAH orders, then why would they need to do it when the risk lessens?
> 
> On the other hand, I do think many changes will be better and some may remain. That is being discussed in the predictions of change thread.


My post was intended to be much more expansive than just grocery shopping, although I think you would have to agree that it’s use has increased greatly in the past month or so. At least it has in the area of the country where I live.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 23, 2020)

Cornell said:


> A job is about so much more than money.  So much more.


A thousand times yes!


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## Cornell (Apr 23, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> A thousand times yes!


My 17 yo daughter has been really , really struggling during all of this .  I encouraged to try to find a job since she has so much extra time on her hands and is just miserable being isolated all day.  She got a job @ a local grocery store and it has been the best thing for her.  She's interacting w/people.  Her day has a purpose.  She's accountable to management.  She has a reason to wake up each day at a normal hour and get dressed.  OH, and she's making money.

It has turned things around for her completely-- in the positive direction.

A few people in my life gave me their unsolicited concern:    "Are you sure this is safe?"....the level of concern was ridiculous to me.  Her mental health and  emotional development are a big priority right now.


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## clifffaith (Apr 23, 2020)

heathpack said:


> I’m sure you know this because you’ve used Instacart but for others who haven’t: you can also preselect acceptable substitutes in advance.  For example, I wanted plain nonfat Greek yogurt in my Aldi order but I was able to tell my shopper in advance what to substitute if that was unavailable, or to sub nothing at all.  So I listed the alternative item of plain whole milk Greek yogurt and that’s what I got.
> 
> It’s easy to do and they text you in real time so if you don’t like their substitute you can modify on the fly.



Just wanted to comment that using non-concierge type shopping and delivery, like ordering from Vons, is a whole different experience. My parents ordered from Vons for about 10 months before this crisis. "No substitutions" is routinely ignored. They can't handle half gallons (too heavy and hard to grip) so order quarts. They routinely get the larger items delivered. She does not like Vons store brand cheese, she orders Tillamook or Cracker Barrel but they send her store brand. I've begged her or my sister to call to voice their complaints, they tell me there is no one "in charge". Of course this is them, and I had 30 years of making my concerns about service known to my suppliers, so I suspect they give up too easily.


----------



## Steve Fatula (Apr 23, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> What I am now noticing is a narrative that is trending away from just flattening the curve more to eliminating any and all risk of spreading the virus. It now isn't enough to just flatten the curve. At the beginning social distancing was to flatten the curve so not to overwhelm the healthcare system. In many parts of the country, they got nowhere near maxing out the capacity of the system. So it worked, but was it too much? Because social distancing is working, now it seems that we need to continue on the same path or even more restrictions to prevent any and all spread. We can't even comprehend to open up now until there is a vaccine. There is no guarantee that will even be 100% effective and widespread use is probably 18 months away. Shouldn't they slowly loosen restrictions to get to a point where the healthcare isn't overwhelmed? It seems social distancing works to prevent spread, but it has drawbacks in that it draws out the economic hardship so much longer.



Totally agree, so many now going beyond the original goal of the distancing. You will *not* eliminate the virus by keeping people at home. You will reduce the spread in some ways. In other ways, you will almost guarantee if one household member gets it, they all will. How many stories of entire families dying. Gee, I wonder why. It's the same effect as we saw with nursing homes. So, if you have a family of 5, do you really want all 5 to get it if one does? Even doctors are not going home as they know they will likely infect their family. I am sure those self isolating try their best, but obviously it's not very easy to keep from infecting others in close quarters. Forcing people to stay home has other impacts, far beyond work and money. Even NY governor decided that if he were to do it again, SIP was not the best idea. You could indeed totally eliminate the virus by having everyone stay home. of course, everyone would die too.

I know in our state, we never came remotely close to hospital capacity. I suppose some will say that's good, see it worked. Sure, but now I may actually lose an arm as I was not able to get needed surgery. I've seen news stories of people who died from not being able to get treated for what they call "elective" surgery. I am sure that currently more likely would have died from the virus than those of us affected because of the rules.

To be fair, could any predict the numbers that would result, how many would comply, etc.? No, not really. My point is merely we've done pretty good, and I think it's time for some risk.

For those who want to stay at home until *all* risk is gone, or virtually all.... At what point is unemployment too high a cost? 25%? 40%? 70%? 100%? Surely there is a limit to the pain before you would admit that the pain is worse. We can make the great depression look like a boom if we keep going down that road. Many of those jobs already lost, will NEVER come back. Even if we "opened" most things today, there will be a lot of unemployment. Many restaurants around where we live are permanently gone as well as many other types of businesses, they will not reopen. I don't mind the social distancing at all, seems very effective. But locking people up at home and sentencing them to death when someone has the virus, that's a different story. It seems to me for many types of businesses, there are smarter ways of doing business than what was there before. To just say, nah, we know better, keep em all closed.... Every week that goes on, the economic devastation will increase.

The economy even if opened today nationwide is not going to be anywhere near what it was. Do you really think the travel industry will be as it was any time soon? All those workers. Airlines? Movies / Hollywood? What about sports, any time soon? Those food vendors? People who make things for those industries? Airports? Yes, many of those would have problems even without stay at home, but, when you stay at home, and lose your business, and, have to get rid of your employees, and, can't get unemployment, and, can't look for more work (unless online), not very good. So many people in horrible shape around us, horrible. I want to do what I can to help them. But they need income. And that simply isn't going to happen staying home. If they still have a home. I see so many moving in with relatives right now. And wherever they moved from, those have no income now (apts, rent, house, whatever).

I am very tired of the narrative direction. The original goal, based on the best guess (some might call them generously models), made sense. Many states are seeing decreases in daily new cases and have not come close to hospital capacity. Obviously, some areas are far worse than others, so, one size does not fit all. I look forward to phased re-openings with new policies and procedures.

Back to the OP, even if there was close by pickup for groceries, I wouldn't use it if I could still go in store. I do not like at all people picking my produce, and certain other products than we are picky about. Not convinced at all that there is less risk with pickup.


----------



## bbodb1 (Apr 23, 2020)

While I understand the points you are making here, it is this one:



rickandcindy23 said:


> If you all think not having a job is not a determiner of mental health, you aren't seeing the devastation this is causing to others.  Try to think of the human factor a bit.  Retired people still get their checks, but working people need theirs.  Printing money isn't going to fix anything.  *A job gives people self esteem.  Once a person loses that job, self esteem suffers*.  Dr. Phil has been vocal about this issue.
> 
> Landlords cannot evict people for not paying rent, yet landlords have payments to make.  I feel for everyone, including those who have lost family members to this disease.
> 
> Agree with Old Hickory.  the data from China was not accurate.



..that sends up red flags for me.  Show me a person's whose self esteem is tied to the job they hold, and I will show you a person does not have self esteem.  
Now, I realize you are NOT saying ALL self esteem comes from one's job but in a time when staff is primarily considered an expense to be minimized as opposed to viewing staff as assets to be developed, a person's job simply cannot be a source of self esteem.


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 23, 2020)

geekette said:


> Heck, I won't even have an invasive procedure in a doctor's office or hospital right now.  Cannot imagine trotting down to the strip mall to enjoy needling.
> 
> At least with wrestling, it's 2 people sweating and breathing on each other.  If those 2 people are ok with it, I won't object.   But the trainers and refs, I can't imagine they want to be involved.



I believe the wrestling comment was referring to the WWE... Not actual wrestling.

Some of us badly needed invasive surgery and would gladly have done it. But instead, our hospital sits idle, doctors out of work as elective procedures (that in some cases save lives and limbs) are banned.


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## clifffaith (Apr 23, 2020)

JanT said:


> Yep, I remember that very clearly myself.  Also, they had the best glazed donuts EVER!  I miss those days!



Helms had cookies that were very much like Pepperidge Farm's Milanos. I loved those! And I have great memories of stepping into the truck and watching the Helm's man slide his wooden drawers full of donuts and other goodies out for us kids to peruse.


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## "Roger" (Apr 23, 2020)

Cornell said:


> A job is about so much more than money.  So much more.


I agree with you, but I also have to smile a bit.

When Marx said "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" the insipid response has always been, "Why would anyone work if their needs will automatically be fulfilled?" The answer is that Marx considered meaningful work a fundamental psychological need. So have you gone communist on us? 

For the record, I am not a communist, and, this post is meant to be somewhat of a tease. On a serious note, I do value the importance of meaningful work. I wish that everyone could have jobs that they considered fulfilling.


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## bbodb1 (Apr 23, 2020)

"Roger" said:


> I agree with you, but I also have to smile a bit.
> 
> When Marx said "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" the insipid response has always been, "Why would anyone work if their needs will automatically be fulfilled?" The answer is that Marx considered meaningful work a fundamental psychological need. So have you gone communist on us?
> 
> For the record, I am not a communist, and, this post is meant to be somewhat of a tease. On a serious note, I do value the importance of meaningful work. *I wish that everyone could have jobs that they considered fulfilling*.



From somewhere beyond, you've just made Max Weber's day. 
The ideal type.....


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## TravelTime (Apr 23, 2020)

THESE ARE THE STATES THAT HAVE FLATTENED THE CORONAVIRUS CURVE

According to the data provided by IHME, states including Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Hawaii, Idaho, Iowa, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Minnesota, Mississippi, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Vermont, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin, have all flattened the coronavirus curve.









						U.S. States That Have Flattened the Coronavirus Curve
					

Amid the coronavirus pandemic in the U.S., a number of different states have already flattened the curve.




					www.newsweek.com


----------



## WVBaker (Apr 23, 2020)

geekette said:


> Heck, I won't even have an invasive procedure in a doctor's office or hospital right now.  Cannot imagine trotting down to the strip mall to enjoy needling.
> 
> At least with wrestling, it's 2 people sweating and breathing on each other.  If those 2 people are ok with it, I won't object.   But the trainers and refs, I can't imagine they want to be involved.
> 
> I can only hope that enough people Just Say No to prevent unnecessarily risky stuff from happening.  But, money is a powerful motivator for some.  Powerful enough to get over their fear of death.



You never get over your fear of death, until you're dead.


----------



## bbodb1 (Apr 23, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> You never get over your fear of death, until you're dead.


...but what if you're only...._mostly_ dead?  

And then.....


----------



## Cornell (Apr 23, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> THESE ARE THE STATES THAT HAVE FLATTENED THE CORONAVIRUS CURVE
> 
> According to the data provided by IHME, states including Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Hawaii, Idaho, Iowa, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Minnesota, Mississippi, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Vermont, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin, have all flattened the coronavirus curve.
> 
> ...


So has IL but our governor refuses to accept the data presented to him


----------



## bogey21 (Apr 23, 2020)

Luanne said:


> I remember having milk delivered to our door in glass bottles.  I think I also remember that my mom would put the empty glass bottles out for them to pick up and re use.  We also got bread delivered.


I remember this too.  Back in Philadelphia in 1943 when I was 8 years old the milkman came by in a horse drawn wagon.  He would sometimes let me sit on the horse while he made his deliveries...


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## Luanne (Apr 23, 2020)

bogey21 said:


> I remember this too.  Back in Philadelphia in 1943 when I was 8 years old the milkman came by in a horse drawn wagon.  He would sometimes let me sit on the horse while he made his deliveries...


I don't think I was ever up early enough to see what our milkman used for delivery.


----------



## pedro47 (Apr 23, 2020)

A local milkman with his vintage milk truck can out of retirement to delivery foods to seniors in the 757 area.

His helper was a young whipped snacker.


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## Rolltydr (Apr 23, 2020)

Cornell said:


> So has IL but our governor refuses to accept the data presented to him


The AL governor is accepting the data shown to her because it does show the curve is flattening due to the steps taken, but also that the curve will arc severely again if those steps are abandoned too early without enough testing and safeguards in place.


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## Luanne (Apr 23, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> A local milkman with his vintage milk truck can out of retirement to delivery foods to seniors in the 757 area.
> 
> His helper was a* young whipped snacker*.


 Auto correct?  For some reason I think you meant young whipper snapper.


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## Brett (Apr 23, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Auto correct?  For some reason I think you meant young whipper snapper.




another snacker whipped !

some dairies still deliver milk to your house
https://www.oberweis.com/about-home-delivery


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## geekette (Apr 23, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> You never get over your fear of death, until you're dead.


I don't fear death, I fear suffering while alive.


----------



## TravelTime (Apr 23, 2020)

Here’s a story of small business despair by a couple of hair salons in Auburn, CA, which is 10 minutes from where I live. These businesses are breaking the SIP order to work because they need to feed the family and pay the bills. One person said she does not qualify for unemployment and was denied the application for the small business loan program. This is really sad. If things do not start opening up soon, people are going to take matters in their own hands to try to survive.









						Two hair salon owners in Auburn defy stay-at-home orders, both reopen to pay bills
					

AUBURN, Calif. (KTXL) — Hair salons and barbershops across the state have been closed since March under the state’s stay-at-home order. After more than a month without income, two …




					fox40.com


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## Cornell (Apr 23, 2020)

@TravelTime i personally know hair dressers, manicurists, vet techs, and gym owners who are working “underground” right now. Risking their licenses etc. bc they need $ . This will only get bigger and more widespread. And our greedy local governments are not getting tax revenue on these transactions.


----------



## Luanne (Apr 23, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> Here’s a story of small business despair by a couple of hair salons in Auburn, CA, which is 10 minutes from where I live. These businesses are breaking the SIP order to work because they need to feed the family and pay the bills. One person said she does not qualify for unemployment and was denied the application for the small business loan program. This is really sad. If things do not start opening up soon, people are going to take matters in their own hands to try to survive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is sad.  I was talking to the guy who cuts our hair to ask if we could get gift certificates or pay ahead.  He thanked us but said he'd learned way back that with the job he has he needed to have money set aside.  I know that's hard for many people to do.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Apr 23, 2020)

Self esteem comes from having your kids' bellies full, having a roof over the family's head (and seeing those smiling faces at the end of the day), and having enough money to pay for basic necessities.  A job provides all of that.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Apr 23, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> Here’s a story of small business despair by a couple of hair salons in Auburn, CA, which is 10 minutes from where I live. These businesses are breaking the SIP order to work because they need to feed the family and pay the bills. One person said she does not qualify for unemployment and was denied the application for the small business loan program. This is really sad. If things do not start opening up soon, people are going to take matters in their own hands to try to survive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very sad.  I don't know how small businesses and the people who work for the small businesses are going to make it.  Our son may have to lay off his four employees next month, if re-financing his house doesn't go through to continue paying them.


----------



## Luanne (Apr 23, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Very sad.  I don't know how small businesses and the people who work for the small businesses are going to make it.  Our son may have to lay off his four employees next month, if re-financing his house doesn't go through to continue paying them.


Some will and some won't.  My nephew and his wife own a wedding venue in MO.  They have been busy cancelling, moving dates doing all they can for their clients.  My sister (his mom) said he was able to either get a small business loan (or else it was the loan he already had) with 6 months forgiveness, meaning he won't have to make those payments for 6 months and they won't be tacked onto his loan.  He also qualified for mortgage assistance.  She thinks they will be okay.  The local gym I go to (it's a stand alone not part of a chain) got their Payroll Assistance and were able to pay out their workers for two months.  They closed down early, even before our stay at home order went in as they didn't want to be "that place" where anyone got infected.  I'm sure they will be cautious opening up again.


----------



## geekette (Apr 23, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Self esteem comes from having your kids' bellies full, having a roof over the family's head (and seeing those smiling faces at the end of the day), and having enough money to pay for basic necessities.  A job provides all of that.


While that may be where some find their self-esteem, others do not.  It is apparently not sourced the same way universally.


----------



## Luanne (Apr 23, 2020)

clifffaith said:


> Helms had cookies that were very much like Pepperidge Farm's Milanos. I loved those! And I have great memories of stepping into the truck and watching the Helm's man slide his wooden drawers full of donuts and other goodies out for us kids to peruse.


I don't remember those cookies, only the oatmeal.  Maybe it's because the oatmeal were the only ones we were allowed to have.  And I do remember the drawers.  Such fond memories.


----------



## PigsDad (Apr 23, 2020)

Rolltydr said:


> The AL governor is accepting the data shown to her because it does show the curve is flattening due to the steps taken, but also that *the curve will arc severely again if those steps are abandoned too early without enough testing and safeguards in place.*


And you know this for a fact because why?

Kurt


----------



## Luanne (Apr 23, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> And you know this for a fact because why?
> 
> Kurt


I think because thing like that have happened in the past.


----------



## Sea Six (Apr 23, 2020)

Cornell said:


> @TravelTime i personally know hair dressers, manicurists, vet techs, and gym owners who are working “underground” right now. Risking their licenses etc. bc they need $ . This will only get bigger and more widespread. And our greedy local governments are not getting tax revenue on these transactions.


I need a dog groomer!  Our mutt is getting SHAGGY!  I think those that work out of their van can maintain distance and keep safe.


----------



## PigsDad (Apr 23, 2020)

Luanne said:


> I think because thing like that have happened in the past.


So you are saying there have been other states or countries that have had SIP orders lifted after they flattened the curve, and then the curve "arced severely" (using Rolltydr's words) after lifting those orders?  Please cite your reference for this "fact".

This is a new virus, and we really don't know exactly what will happen, and certainly not as a "fact", is all I am saying.

Kurt


----------



## Sea Six (Apr 23, 2020)

Luanne said:


> I think because thing like that have happened in the past.


You're right.  There is a post going around about Philly letting their people out a little too early from quarantine for a parade, and 5 days later the hospitals were CRAMMED!  It was a war victory parade, early 1800's, forget which one.


----------



## Luanne (Apr 23, 2020)

Sea Six said:


> You're right.  There is a post going around about Philly letting their people out a little too early from quarantine for a parade, and 5 days later the hospitals were CRAMMED!  It was a war victory parade, early 1800's, forget which one.


Also there is information from the Spanish flu that showed a second round.


----------



## Luanne (Apr 23, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> So you are saying there have been other states or countries that have had SIP orders lifted after they flattened the curve, and then the curve "arced severely" (using Rolltydr's words) after lifting those orders?  Please cite your reference for this "fact".
> 
> Kurt


You don't have to be so confrontational.  I have seen and heard some comparisons to the Spanish flu.  Here is one article, although it may not contain the "facts" you are looking for.

https://www.history.com/news/spanish-flu-second-wave-resurgence


----------



## Sea Six (Apr 23, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Also there is information from the Spanish flu that showed a second round.


I think that's the one I saw.


----------



## Rolltydr (Apr 23, 2020)

geekette said:


> While that may be where some find their self-esteem, others do not.  It is apparently not sourced the same way universally.


I’ve always found it fascinating that when someone asks, ”What do you do?”, the response is always your job description. I read this quote from someone a few days ago, “My job is what I do, not who I am.” I know a lot of people love their jobs and some are even passionate about them. That is absolutely wonderful if you feel that way and I’m very happy for you. Truly, I am.  There are many, many people who have to work at any job they can get. Then there are others who start a job, start a family, get all the bills that go with it and can’t afford to leave for something they might like better, even if they can find it.

For example, I worked with a company that paid pretty well and I ended up working on 3rd shift in what at that time was called data processing. When I accepted the job, I was told I would work nights for a couple of years and then would be able to move to days. The couple of years turned into 9 and while the work itself wasn’t hard, the hours were killing me. I was extremely unhappy because I was tired, sleepy and irritable all the time. I couldn’t sleep well during the day and even when I did, due to my biorhythms, I wasn’t as rested as when I was able to sleep at night. But, I had a wife, a child, a house, and all the other bills that go along with those things and couldn’t afford to take a cut in pay to change jobs. Fortunately, I did finally get to move to days and, eventually, I even got to do a couple of jobs that I really did love before I retired. But, even then, I enjoyed my hours and days away from the job more than I loved the job. My job was what I did, not who I was.


----------



## PigsDad (Apr 23, 2020)

Luanne said:


> You don't have to be so confrontational.  I have seen and heard some comparisons to the Spanish flu.  Here is one article, although it may not contain the "facts" you are looking for.


And there is no need for you to be so condescending.  Since this was in reference to states starting to open back up, let's revisit this in a few weeks and see if any of the curves are "arcing severely", ok?

Kurt


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## Luanne (Apr 23, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> And there is no need for you to be so condescending.  Since this was in reference to states starting to open back up, let's revisit this in a few weeks and see if any of the curves are "arcing severely", ok?
> 
> Kurt


Sorry, I wasn't meaning to be condescending.  Just reacting to the tone of your post.  Here is another example.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/22/opin...LhY-pxDPJkuoTeJR2BL1e7eGjR_KptdM5MXxkuRw946ms


----------



## Old Hickory (Apr 23, 2020)

Cornell said:


> @TravelTime i personally know hair dressers, manicurists, vet techs, and gym owners who are working “underground” right now. Risking their licenses etc. bc they need $ . This will only get bigger and more widespread. And our greedy local governments are not getting tax revenue on these transactions.



Great point.  My state, Tennessee, has no income tax and relies on a 9.75% sales tax revenue.   My state's greediness is showing in our governor's "suggestion" to reopen these businesses as we border Kentucky, Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and Arkansas.  And a few miles from South Carolina and Missouri.  

Ya'll come!


----------



## Rolltydr (Apr 23, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> And there is no need for you to be so condescending.  Since this was in reference to states starting to open back up, let's revisit this in a few weeks and see if any of the curves are "arcing severely", ok?
> 
> Kurt


I’m old enough to remember when, in February, someone said something to the effect, “We only have 4 or 5 cases and it will be down to zero in a couple of days. And no deaths!” The medical experts were warning us of what was to come.

Current numbers are:
U.S.: Total confirmed cases as of 4:30 p.m. ET: 856,209— Total deaths: 47,272 — Total recoveries — 78,339 — Total tested: 4,493,106  (Source Is axios.com)


----------



## Steve Fatula (Apr 23, 2020)

Rolltydr said:


> The medical experts were warning us of what was to come.



That statement doesn't necessarily mean anything. How many of them? i.e., after any event ever in the history of mankind, I can find people who were predicting it. Not difficult. Guaranteed actually. I also recall millions of deaths as a claim. And so on. The reality turned out to be a lot of asymptomatic cases, far more than anyone knew, and almost certainly earlier than anyone knew. I saw today that NY semi scientific tests come out with a statewide 14% infection rate, I doubt anyone would have predicted a number that high. And it likely is a little high, how much? No one currently knows.

Any governor of any state had the ability to shut their state down as they have now, not one did. Until March 23? Washington? If the facts were soooooo obvious, then, surely at least one governor of one state would have acted early on?

One of the problems I had early was the 'ol crying wolf syndrome. There have been around a dozen illnesses in the past 20 years or so that were going to "kill us all". But they didn't, and petered out. If you try and scare me 12 times, and you're right the 13th time, what are the odds I will believe you THIS time? Yes, "kill us all" was for dramatic effect as news often exaggerates anything any more. And this time, perhaps the news and predictions were correct. But it's not a very good track record.


----------



## Rolltydr (Apr 23, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> And you know this for a fact because why?
> 
> Kurt


See post #185.

Facts are things that have already happened or are always true. Like 2+2=4 is a fact. Covid-19 is a pandemic disease striking millions worldwide. That is a fact. Models, projections, guesses, predictions, etc. are not facts. It is a fact that the experts have been correct since January in their warnings that covid19 is a pandemic that has no treatment and will kill millions of people IF serious mitigation steps are not taken. It is not a fact that it is no worse than the flu and if we just ignore it, it will go away. That is wishful thinking.

Have a nice evening.


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## Rolltydr (Apr 23, 2020)

We’re most likely not reading and listening to the same things. The media I was reading in January and February had statements from the medical and scientific communities warning of millions of cases and, perhaps, millions of deaths IF (please note the IF) nothing was done to mitigate the spread of the virus. They then ran many different models with many different inputs and assumptions to come up with different projections. They have been much more accurate than those who said it’s just going to disappear. Fortunately, most countries, including us finally, undertook serious steps to mitigate the spread and the numbers, at this still early stage, are not looking as bad as they did a couple of weeks ago. Of course, we can still screw that up by going back to business as usual.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 23, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Sorry, I wasn't meaning to be condescending.  Just reacting to the tone of your post.  Here is another example.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/22/opin...LhY-pxDPJkuoTeJR2BL1e7eGjR_KptdM5MXxkuRw946ms


I don't think for a minute that anyone is suggesting that we all go out and whoop it up in huge celebrations and parades? No one is even suggesting a 100% return to normal.


----------



## Luanne (Apr 23, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think for a minute that anyone is suggesting that we all go out and whoop it up in huge celebrations and parades? No one is even suggesting a 100% return to normal.


I was responding to post #176.  Take my comment as you like.


----------



## dioxide45 (Apr 23, 2020)

Luanne said:


> I was responding to post #176.  Take my comment as you like.


What I am saying is that the two items referenced here from the 1918 pandemic mentioning lifting restrictions and people going out for huge celebrations and parades as a means to justify not lifting any restrictions are bad examples. No one is suggesting we go out and gather in large groups, shoot not even in groups more than 5-10. So the two examples cited; the one in your link and the one in post #177 aren't the best examples to use in this context. If new infections are on a downward trend and most areas are already well under 100% resource utilization, it means that we are likely far too restrictive. The idea was to flatten the curve, we can't prevent 100% of all infections. The narrative is now that just flattening the curve isn't enough.


----------



## Luanne (Apr 23, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> What I am saying is that the two items referenced here from the 1918 pandemic mentioning lifting restrictions and people going out for huge celebrations and parades as a means to justify not lifting any restrictions are bad examples. No one is suggesting we go out and gather in large groups, shoot not even in groups more than 5-10. So the two examples cited; the one in your link and the one in post #177 aren't the best examples to use in this context. If new infections are on a downward trend and most areas are already well under 100% resource utilization, it means that we are likely far too restrictive. The idea was to flatten the curve, we can't prevent 100% of all infections. The narrative is now that just flattening the curve isn't enough.


And what I'm saying is someone asked for "facts" showing that lifting restrictions could cause a phase two, or whatever.  I'm done with this conversation.  Not directed at you personally.


----------



## Rolltydr (Apr 23, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> *No one* is suggesting we go out and *gather in large groups*, shoot not even in groups more than 5-10.


Ummm, I haven’t looked to see where you live, but I listen to sports radio in Birmingham, AL and there are A LOT of people saying we need to start sports back, right now! Not to mention the churches. And if football doesn’t start in September, I’m pretty sure I won’t want to live here.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 23, 2020)

Rolltydr said:


> Ummm, I haven’t looked to see where you live, but I listen to sports radio in Birmingham, AL and there are A LOT of people saying we need to start sports back, right now! Not to mention the churches. And if football doesn’t start in September, I’m pretty sure I won’t want to live here.


By "no one", I was referring to those commenting on this forum. Though I really shouldn't speak for others.


----------



## geekette (Apr 23, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> By "no one", I was referring to those commenting on this forum. Though I really shouldn't speak for others.


Understood.   I was thinking that the protesters have no problem going out and whooping it up in groups.  It alarmed me, but, made me even more determined to not leave home for at least another 2 weeks.  We had only a couple hundred protesters, definitely not spaced, most not masked (based on local news feed vs personal observation).  

I think that for some people, if they don't yet know anyone touched by this severely, they don't see the problem.  Literally, not seeing it.


----------



## geekette (Apr 23, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> ... If new infections are on a downward trend and most areas are already well under 100% resource utilization, it means that we are likely far too restrictive. The idea was to flatten the curve, we can't prevent 100% of all infections. The narrative is now that just flattening the curve isn't enough.


IF new infections are on a downward trend....   a massive IF.   Here, our testing has fallen off (lack of supplies) and we never opened it up for everyone to be tested, we are still limited to first responders (all essential employees now) and their households, nursing homes, and those presenting to a hospital.  We don't actually know the level of infection, only how many tests come back positive.  It will look like less new cases, because there will not be many tests happening, but that does not mean that infections are decreasing, just that we aren't looking for them.  

If we lift restrictions (I am talking here, where I live), we could have spikes in infections that we cannot see.  We are still under 1% of population tested, so I am far from ready to lift restrictions.  

If your population is well tested, then, sure, maybe you can see infection trends and continue to monitor.


----------



## dioxide45 (Apr 23, 2020)

geekette said:


> IF new infections are on a downward trend....   a massive IF.   Here, our testing has fallen off (lack of supplies) and we never opened it up for everyone to be tested, we are still limited to first responders (all essential employees now) and their households, nursing homes, and those presenting to a hospital.  We don't actually know the level of infection, only how many tests come back positive.  It will look like less new cases, because there will not be many tests happening, but that does not mean that infections are decreasing, just that we aren't looking for them.
> 
> If we lift restrictions (I am talking here, where I live), we could have spikes in infections that we cannot see.  We are still under 1% of population tested, so I am far from ready to lift restrictions.
> 
> If your population is well tested, then, sure, maybe you can see infection trends and continue to monitor.


While we can't see infections (without adequate testing), we certainly see hospitalizations. Since you never share where you live, we don't know what level of resources your area has utilized. Unless you are in New York, Chicago, Miami, Detroit or some other locations around the country with high levels of infection, chances are your area hasn't got anywhere close to 100% or even 50% of resource utilization. If they did loosen some restrictions (again not all), there doesn't seem to be an indication that it would get close to 100% of resource utilization. It was about flattening the curve, not eliminating all infection. I am not suggesting areas with resource utilization close to or over 100% should remove any restrictions.


----------



## Steve Fatula (Apr 23, 2020)

We're sitting at around 15-20% utilization (at peak) in my state and hospitals are actually closing up and going out of business since all the procedures they would be able to do are banned. Yes, they really are. Mostly rural ones. And the doctors, nurses, janitors, whomever are unemployed, etc. Communities (rural) are therefore in hard times, much moreso than urban areas. So, I suppose they (doctors and nurses) can at least relocate and get a job elsewhere, but, what happens down the line if infections spread in all those rural areas? More deaths of course. So, the strategy people keep touting is *terrible* in these areas. When you have 1 case in a county (and 0 in many more), it's not exactly the same as New York City. It's absurd to think it is. Things have indeed gone *way* overboard in some areas. And yes, I am quite angry that I can't have needed "elective" surgery to save a limb. All because *a* person has the virus. And I am not alone, I am sure there are many people far worse off. I'm staying home for now, my wife is very very high risk, however, there is no good reason to prevent me from getting needed surgery in my area. Because they have a patient!?

There are many sides to this story. What applies to New York most certainly (in general) does not apply here. The same reaction is not needed. It's easy to have a simplistic keep everyone home strategy. But the affects are wide ranging and not always positive.

Dioxide has it correct. The intent was to flatten the curve, which in many areas (far from all) has occurred.

I would certainly not agree we should start sports back "right now" or any time soon. No way. Or concerts, etc. At least in the traditional sense. But there is a huge economic impact to that as well. At some point, one does have to balance life vs economics, sorry. You cannot have 100% unemployment. or anywhere remotely close. The latest unemployment numbers are unbelievable. Maybe it's hard for the average timeshare owner to imagine the hardships so many have right now? The food lines are massive! The self employed are in really really bad shape in many cases.

The latest from New York antibody testing is 14% statewide infection rate, and, .5% death rate. As low as .5% sounds, it's still high assuming their numbers are not inflated due to who they tested. And they may be. So, I am certainly not saying the risk is minimal. It is not. The fact someone may be against shelter in place does not mean they are the same ones protesting. Too many lumping of people into buckets.

This whole testing thing makes some sense, but not as much as it first seems, to me. So, test everyone, go ahead. So, today, I test negative, and tomorrow I go to work (if I wasn't retired). Maybe I am infected now, maybe I got it at a store, neighbor, who knows what. Are you going to test all Americans every day then? I don't think that is feasible without a new tech than what is currently being used. My view is life isn't safe, and, one can indeed go overboard on safety. Just as one could also go overboard on lack of safety. Yes, there are some going overboard both ways.

And yes, the media did report some models that had many millions of deaths assuming no action. Which may or may not have occurred, who knows as we still don't know the actual death rate. It was an educated guess at best. And then a later model came out that most are using now, like the covid19 site. And that turned out to be overly pessimistic. It could well be more people followed the guidelines than they expected, don't know. However, all that being said, not ONE governor of ANY US State took action. I would think if the scientists were pretty sure they were right, they should have been able to provoke *one* state into serious action. IF the data was that solid and obvious. Since that did not happen, I conclude it either was not, or, they did a terrible job trying to communicate the risk. Since the governors have maintained they decide (and they are right), it's quite amazing none took action. There's a problem there. I find it hard to believe all of them are bad. But maybe so.

I am on the side of opening things up in stages, with some logic (unlike a certain state) in those areas where it makes sense and the curve has flattened. SIP has caused way too widespread family deaths and increased infection rates in some cases. We needed a different strategy than keeping people at home when infected. 

And please, don't try and ban going into a grocery store.


----------



## Rolltydr (Apr 23, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> We're sitting at around 15-20% utilization (at peak) in my state and hospitals are actually closing up and going out of business since all the procedures they would be able to do are banned. Yes, they really are. Mostly rural ones. And the doctors, nurses, janitors, whomever are unemployed, etc. Communities (rural) are therefore in hard times, much moreso than urban areas. So, I suppose they (doctors and nurses) can at least relocate and get a job elsewhere, but, what happens down the line if infections spread in all those rural areas? More deaths of course. So, the strategy people keep touting is *terrible* in these areas. When you have 1 case in a county (and 0 in many more), it's not exactly the same as New York City. It's absurd to think it is. Things have indeed gone *way* overboard in some areas. And yes, I am quite angry that I can't have needed "elective" surgery to save a limb. All because *a* person has the virus. And I am not alone, I am sure there are many people far worse off. I'm staying home for now, my wife is very very high risk, however, there is no good reason to prevent me from getting needed surgery in my area. Because they have a patient!?
> 
> There are many sides to this story. What applies to New York most certainly (in general) does not apply here. The same reaction is not needed. It's easy to have a simplistic keep everyone home strategy. But the affects are wide ranging and not always positive.
> 
> ...


I’m very sorry for your situation and hope you will be able to have your surgery soon. Godspeed to you!

Oklahoma has also refused to expand Medicaid, right? So has Alabama. Seven rural hospitals have closed in this state because of that decision and 17 more are listed as vulnerable. That has occurred over the last 10 years. Rural hospitals have it tough, anyway. While the current restrictions certainly don’t help, it is probably decisions over a number of years that lead to the closures.


----------



## amycurl (Apr 23, 2020)

Until a community is testing at least 25% of the population, I'm not trusting rates of infection.

47,000 people have died or more than 20 times the number of people that died on 9/11. Yet, there is no call to undo the safety protocols we put in place nearly 20 years ago to allegedly keep more people from dying. But some people are asking to undo safety protocols that were put in place maybe six weeks ago (or less, in some states) to keep more people from dying.

I will say that I was impressed by our Gov today who laid out very specific trend metrics that would need to be met to "open up" in three different phases. But not until mid-May at the earliest.


----------



## Panina (Apr 23, 2020)

amycurl said:


> Until a community is testing at least 25% of the population, I'm not trusting rates of infection.
> 
> 47,000 people have died or more than 20 times the number of people that died on 9/11. Yet, there is no call to undo the safety protocols we put in place nearly 20 years ago to allegedly keep more people from dying. But some people are asking to undo safety protocols that were put in place maybe six weeks ago (or less, in some states) to keep more people from dying.
> 
> I will say that I was impressed by our Gov today who laid out very specific trend metrics that would need to be met to "open up" in three different phases. But not until mid-May at the earliest.


And our governor  (SC) from your bordering state is at least moving slowly.  I haven’t been out to see if any retail stores actually opened.  With a limit of  occupancy to five customers per 1,000 square feet, or 20% of posted occupancy, whichever is lower, it is limited.   It will be interesting how many cars will come over the border from NC.


----------



## Steve Fatula (Apr 24, 2020)

Rolltydr said:


> I’m very sorry for your situation and hope you will be able to have your surgery soon. Godspeed to you!
> 
> Oklahoma has also refused to expand Medicaid, right? So has Alabama. Seven rural hospitals have closed in this state because of that decision and 17 more are listed as vulnerable. That has occurred over the last 10 years. Rural hospitals have it tough, anyway. While the current restrictions certainly don’t help, it is probably decisions over a number of years that lead to the closures.



Thank you for the kind words. Yes, no Medicaid expansion. There are obviously many factors. Another one is the ever declining reimbursement rates they get. But you can imagine a hospital not allowed to do virtually any procedure, and no COVID patients either. What are they supposed to do if they were already in bad shape? Added to all the other challenges. It's really hit this year though. 

I just don't get why no procedures when the hospitals have few patients! I get it if cases were ramping up and hospitals were overburdened as was predicted to happen (say NYC), I would be first in line to give up my appt if that was going on. We were supposed to exceed our intensive care beds as a state. Never came close. Since it's just educated guesses, why not allow them until some trigger is hit? Heck, I couldn't even finally get my Rheumatologist appt I waited 3 MONTHS to get to, have severe pain issues due to the needed surgery among other things. Not open. Great, so, now what, I am sure it will end up rescheduled and another 3 months. Fortunately, I can take pain but it's really bad. Just one example of many that people feel. This is my first hand experience example of the insanity of what we are doing. I've heard dozens and dozens are similarly stupid examples. And I don't have my stimulus check yet. Quite honestly, I don't need it. I am retired, and supposed to stay home (and nothing is opened anyway). How would I even spend it? I actually have more money as we were travelling a lot. I'm one of the last people who need a check. I suppose we'll come up with something, or a family member. 

I do get the protests. I am not a protester, never have, never will. I don't get the unsafe protests however. But I do understand the pain and suffering going on and why they might be protesting.. I just suspect many Tuggers are far better off. I live around many poorer people and just see a lot of what is occurring. Meanwhile, the news focuses on tit for tat and ignores the reality for the most part. I'd far prefer people in power (at all levels) focusing on how to get out of this mess than blaming. One can blame later. Life is important. But you cannot remove all risk. We're not going to get to 0 cases, sorry. And maybe no one is saying that, but it's sure starting to look that way the way I see it. Which is what Dioxide was saying.


----------



## geekette (Apr 24, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> While we can't see infections (without adequate testing), we certainly see hospitalizations. Since you never share where you live, we don't know what level of resources your area has utilized. Unless you are in New York, Chicago, Miami, Detroit or some other locations around the country with high levels of infection, chances are your area hasn't got anywhere close to 100% or even 50% of resource utilization. If they did loosen some restrictions (again not all), there doesn't seem to be an indication that it would get close to 100% of resource utilization. It was about flattening the curve, not eliminating all infection. I am not suggesting areas with resource utilization close to or over 100% should remove any restrictions.


Yeah, it definitely matters where you are, and it is about medical ability to handle it.   It could be years to make it to zero infection, if ever.

I can't get county hospitalization data, only state level, IN, and that matters, too.    We could be underutilized at a state level, yet hammered in a county.  We haven't hit peak yet, we are still climbing.  I tune into local news here and there and while we are not overrun, we are far too busy still, docs still pleading with us to stay home.  Indy has a massive amount of health care facilities, I would be very sure that we are admitting many more than our own county residents.  Our "donut counties" (the ones around the big city) are a mixed bag as far as hospitals.  Those are the ones I worry about.  Like other states, our nursing homes are in bad shape.  We have Chicago-area as well, but I have no visibility into what's happening up there on our side of the border.   Cases per county is just not that helpful.

If your area is past peak, deaths and hospitalizations have trickled, then why not lobby your board of health to advocate for surgeries to open again?  I can't imagine how awful this is for you, the waiting, the seriously bad timing.  There may not be much you can do about it, but make some noise, you might not be the only one making that noise.  Call your doctor, too, they might help that lobbying.  

Good luck to you.  I'm sorry you are already in medical distress.   I hope for fast resolution for you.


----------



## Old Hickory (Apr 24, 2020)

Does anyone know if private surgical centers, which are for elective surgery, are open vs. hospitals?   Or are they even a thing, now?   I've had two elective surgeries (sports injuries) and neither was at a hospital.  

I got a tooth crowned over the past two weeks.  My dentist was seeing one patient at a time with one assistant and one front desk administrator.   They were all in PPP but I was wide open (literally). So it was strictly my decision to have the procedure.  I can chew comfortably, again.


----------



## VacationForever (Apr 24, 2020)

Old Hickory said:


> Does anyone know if private surgical centers, which are for elective surgery, are open vs. hospitals?   Or are they even a thing, now?   I've had two elective surgeries (sports injuries) and neither was at a hospital.
> 
> I got a tooth crowned over the past two weeks.  My dentist was seeing one patient at a time with one assistant and one front desk administrator.   They were all in PPP but I was wide open (literally). So it was strictly my decision to have the procedure.  I can chew comfortably, again.


We live in a different state from you.  Since surgeons here perform both elective and emergency surgeries, it is up to the surgeon whether he/she wants to perform an elective surgery on the patient if the patient elects to go ahead with it.  My specialists/surgeons are still open for business.


----------



## TravelTime (Apr 24, 2020)

I live in Placer County, California (between Sacramento and Lake Tahoe). The doctors here still seem to be working. I had to get a blood test today in advance of my PCP appointment next week. The clinic was very empty but still operating. My appointment next week will be via video. I have had a bunch of medical appointments since the SIP. That surprises me given that non essential medical visits and procedures are supposed to be canceled.


----------



## Luanne (Apr 24, 2020)

VacationForever said:


> We live in a different state from you.  Since surgeons here perform both elective and emergency surgeries, it is up to the surgeon whether he/she wants to perform an elective surgery on the patient if the patient elects to go ahead with it.  My specialists/surgeons are still open for business.


Dh had an elective procedure that was supposed to be on March 24.  It was cancelled and now re-scheduled for September.  It was going to be done at a hospital, not a surgical center.


----------



## VacationForever (Apr 24, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Dh had an elective procedure that was supposed to be on March 24.  It was cancelled and now re-scheduled for September.  It was going to be done at a hospital, not a surgical center.


My GI specialist has his own surgical center and maybe that's why he has full control.


----------



## Sea Six (Apr 24, 2020)

Old Hickory said:


> Does anyone know if private surgical centers, which are for elective surgery, are open vs. hospitals?   Or are they even a thing, now?   I've had two elective surgeries (sports injuries) and neither was at a hospital.



Yup, there's one in our county.  No sick people allowed - just ortho.  My wife had a shoulder replacement.  Knees, hips, etc


----------



## geist1223 (Apr 25, 2020)

Back to the title. We are not doing delivery or curbside pickup. We go into the grocery store and pick out what we want. We always go with a grocery list. I doubt we will ever convert to having groceries delivered or curbside pickup.


----------



## Talent312 (Apr 25, 2020)

geist1223 said:


> Back to the title....I doubt we will ever convert to having groceries delivered or curbside pickup.



Same here. I am now the instacart delivery service for my house.
If you don't go in, you miss choosing your steaks, picking fresh veggies,
and more importantly, exchanging pleasantries with the cashier + bagger.


----------



## Rolltydr (Apr 25, 2020)

Talent312 said:


> Same here. I am now the instacart delivery service for my house.
> If you don't go in, you miss choosing your steaks, picking fresh veggies,
> and more importantly, exchanging pleasantries with the cashier + bagger.


We exchange pleasantries with the delivery person, through the glass door, of course.


----------



## presley (Apr 25, 2020)

geist1223 said:


> Back to the title. We are not doing delivery or curbside pickup. We go into the grocery store and pick out what we want. We always go with a grocery list. I doubt we will ever convert to having groceries delivered or curbside pickup.


Thanks for putting it back on topic. I was reading posts and wondering why I clicked on this thread since it seemed like the kind of thing I wouldn't want to read. Totally forgot what it was about until your post. I am interested in the changes at the grocery stores.

I went to the grocery store yesterday. It was pretty crazy, but I think it was because it was a Friday afternoon. I'm glad I only one more day of online classes. I'll hopefully be able to get out when it's a slower time, if there is a slower time.


----------



## Monykalyn (Apr 25, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> Curbside pickup might be a better option with no tip or delivery fee required.


 Would still be a challenge for the economically challenged and on public transport.


Beachclubmum said:


> I work as a liaison with legal refugees in my city. Many get WIC and a very strict requirement is that you shop in person in order to use (and endorse) the coupons. Both the stores and the recipients will get in trouble if this rule isn’t followed.


 And doing it online/phone opens up to fraud or misuse.



Sea Six said:


> Maybe the stores will bring back the milk-man (among other things)


 Part of the reason why I have to go in is I get local dairy milk in glass jars-that I have to return to get deposit back. It's not even an option for online. Plus sometimes the expiration dates aren't checked closely when restocking-not taking a milk that expires that day!


rickandcindy23 said:


> Tattoo parlors hardly seem like necessary services.


 But they are individually owned and are likely struggling. Plus-good ones are VERY sanitary and the artist routinely wears a mask and gloves while working anyway, and has very good sanitation practices. At least in my experience 


bbodb1 said:


> but what if you're only...._mostly_ dead?


 Props on the Princess Bride reference! One of my all time favorite movies!


Rolltydr said:


> It is a fact that the experts have been correct since January in their warnings that covid19 is a pandemic that has no treatment and *will kill millions of people IF serious mitigation steps are not taken*


 bolded NOT a fact.  https://www.cato.org/blog/how-one-model-simulated-22-million-us-deaths-covid-19  Interesting piece. 

And we need to STOP comparing to 2nd wave of Spanish flu-too many things are different-including better testing, communication, medicine (antibiotics for secondary bacterial infections, better meds/vents) sanitation, better trained HC workers, and the 2nd wave was much more lethal mutated virus.


Steve Fatula said:


> And yes, I am quite angry that I can't have needed "elective" surgery to save a limb.


 I am so sorry! Hope you do get that surgery and soon!!


----------



## Rolltydr (Apr 25, 2020)

Monykalyn said:


> Would still be a challenge for the economically challenged and on public transport.
> And doing it online/phone opens up to fraud or misuse.
> 
> Part of the reason why I have to go in is I get local dairy milk in glass jars-that I have to return to get deposit back. It's not even an option for online. Plus sometimes the expiration dates aren't checked closely when restocking-not taking a milk that expires that day!
> ...



Cato Institute? Seriously? Once again, an opinion agreeing with your opinion does not make that opinion a fact.


----------



## Sea Six (Apr 25, 2020)

Even in the old days the delivery person could manage deposits and expiration dates.


----------



## Polly Metallic (Apr 25, 2020)

I would really hate a delivery-only or pickup-only system. We buy 90% the same items from week to week, but the other 10% are things that strike our fancy at the time, and those kinds of purchases would be impossible without walking through the store ourselves.


----------



## TravelTime (Apr 25, 2020)

I would hate delivery only or curbside pick up only. I like to go into the store and pick what I want. Also, I am cheap and would not want to pay extra for this service. It is not worth it to me.


----------



## bbodb1 (Apr 25, 2020)

Polly Metallic said:


> I would really hate a delivery-only or pickup-only system. We buy 90% the same items from week to week, but the other 10% are things that strike our fancy at the time, and those kinds of purchases would be impossible without walking through the store ourselves.



Even today, with the social distancing guidelines, I too would miss seeing what's new in the store or perhaps seeing an option I had not considered.  My perspective on shopping is that while it is a necessary chore, it does not need to be viewed with such disdain if one takes their time to do it with an end goal in mind.  I do try to structure each trip to the store such that I will not need to come back for at least a week (hopefully two).  Over the years I've learned what amount of fresh produce and vegetables we can eat in a time period so if there is usually an item or two that makes a trip needed earlier than two weeks it will be one of those.  

To be fair, I am nowhere as busy in the last few years as I used to be but even then I enjoyed store trips for the reasons mentioned above.  Obviously, we won't all see this same way but that's how I view this..


----------



## TravelTime (Apr 25, 2020)

Reopening the U.S. Economy Even if the Pandemic Endures
It’s not true that the only way to improve public health is by shutting down the economy and the only way to improve the economy is by sacrificing public health.

As the Covid-19 shutdown enters its second month, policy makers and commentators have emphasized that we’re not yet out of the woods. Deaths and hospitalizations are continuing to rise, albeit more slowly than before. The flattening curves have encouraged some people to talk about reopening the economy, and others to rise in protest against ongoing restrictions, but most Americans remain cautious. We’ve been willing to endure the staggering economic damage because we’re convinced that it’s necessary for public health—and that the lockdowns won’t last too long.

Indeed, a kind of conventional wisdom has emerged among public health officials and policy experts. We’re told that life will go back to normal just as soon as we’ve reached a series of public health milestones: near-universal testing, the development of effective treatments, the emergence of herd immunity and, ultimately, approval of a vaccine.

But this conventional wisdom has a critical flaw. We’ve taken for granted that our ingenuity can solve almost any problem. But what if, in this case, it can’t? What if we can’t scale up coronavirus testing as quickly as we need to? What if it takes us six or 12 months, instead of three, to identify an effective treatment for Covid-19? What if those who recover from the disease fail to gain immunity and are therefore susceptible to getting reinfected? And what if it takes us years to develop a vaccine?

Once we start asking these questions, a terrible truth becomes clear: The scenario in which we meet all the public health milestones, and then return to our regularly scheduled economic programming, is highly optimistic. A more realistic scenario is that we will fail to reach one or more of the milestones. If that happens, do we prolong the economic shutdown for six months or longer? Do we impose a series of on-and-off stay-at-home orders that could go on for years?....

.....The same issue may make it hard for biotech companies to develop an effective vaccine. Vaccines are hard enough to develop in normal circumstances. After decades of trying, we still don’t have vaccines against HIV or hepatitis C. The fastest vaccine ever developed for a viral infection is the Ebola vaccine, which took five years. And yet many commentators talk about developing a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine within 12 to 18 months, as if it were a piece of cake......









						Reopening the U.S. Economy Even if the Pandemic Endures
					

It’s not true that the only way to improve public health is by shutting down the economy and the only way to improve the economy is by sacrificing public health.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## Sea Six (Apr 25, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> I would hate delivery only or curbside pick up only. I like to go into the store and pick what I want. Also, I am cheap and would not want to pay extra for this service. It is not worth it to me.


If you ever get put on mandatory quarantine after being released from the hospital with symptoms,  you won't have much choice.  You will not be allowed in the store.


----------



## TravelTime (Apr 25, 2020)

Sea Six said:


> If you ever get put on mandatory quarantine after being released from the hospital with symptoms,  you won't have much choice.  You will not be allowed in the store.



That is why I hope grocery stores will still offer delivery services as an option but not make it the only way to shop. People need choices.


----------



## Bucky (Apr 26, 2020)

I too would miss roaming the aisles and rooting out new things I want to try.

But, if you never had that option you wouldn’t miss it. As far as added cost I would imagine the pick up charge would go away (probably just rolled into item pricing). Most cases even tipping would go away. If the store is closed and pickup is the only option they will figure ways to cut costs even further. Wouldnt be surprised to see robotic personal shoppers someday. imagine Something like the bomb squads rover they currently use roaming the aisles and squeezing your tomatoes! LOL


----------



## Monykalyn (Apr 26, 2020)

Rolltydr said:


> Cato Institute? Seriously? Once again, an opinion agreeing with your opinion does not make that opinion a fact.


  The source definitely has a leaning, doesn't make the questions it raises less valid.  No one dares question Imperial College models even though they've been wildly inaccurate and outdated. Gloom and doom sell stories though!!


TravelTime said:


> After decades of trying, we still don’t have vaccines against HIV or hepatitis C.


Those aren't good examples and I wish the reporters would stop the copy paste syndrome - HIV attacks immune system itself and hides there-what they fail to point out is we have developed really good treatments (albeit took a long time r/t politics). Hep C is difficult because of the multiple distinct genotypes and multiple subtypes under those-making a global vaccine difficult. Covid 19 doesn't appear to have any of those characteristics, but media loves to report doomsday stuff don't they?


----------



## TravelTime (Apr 26, 2020)

Monykalyn said:


> The source definitely has a leaning, doesn't make the questions it raises less valid.  No one dares question Imperial College models even though they've been wildly inaccurate and outdated. Gloom and doom sell stories though!!
> 
> Those aren't good examples and I wish the reporters would stop the copy paste syndrome - HIV attacks immune system itself and hides there-what they fail to point out is we have developed really good treatments (albeit took a long time r/t politics). Hep C is difficult because of the multiple distinct genotypes and multiple subtypes under those-making a global vaccine difficult. Covid 19 doesn't appear to have any of those characteristics, but media loves to report doomsday stuff don't they?



The reporter’s point was just that it may take longer than 12-18 months to develop an effective vaccine. I wonder how long it took to develop the flu vaccine?


----------



## Polly Metallic (Apr 26, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> The reporter’s point was just that it may take longer than 12-18 months to develop an effective vaccine. I wonder how long it took to develop the flu vaccine?



There are already a number of potential vaccines being tested, but they may not be approved and available for at least a year. Still, that’s encouraging.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Apr 26, 2020)

Sweden is a country touted by a lot of people as an ideal place to live.  They do a lot of things very well, including recycling, my friend and pastor was just so impressed with the small amount of garbage each family has compared to the US.  Managing their health care system as a government entity (taxes are on everything you buy) is another reason people love Sweden so much.  They didn't shut down anything, and their population is getting immunity naturally.  I just saw a report on this and wondered why that is not something we could have done.  We will see in the end if they under-reacted or were too late to react.



			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?


----------



## WVBaker (Apr 26, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Sweden is a country touted by a lot of people as an ideal place to live.  They do a lot of things very well, including recycling, my friend and pastor was just so impressed with the small amount of garbage each family has compared to the US.  Managing their health care system as a government entity (taxes are on everything you buy) is another reason people love Sweden so much.  They didn't shut down anything, and their population is getting immunity naturally.  I just saw a report on this and wondered why that is not something we could have done.  We will see in the end if they under-reacted or were too late to react.
> 
> 
> 
> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?



But Swedes are frustrated over their universal healthcare, one of the main pillars of their cherished welfare state, with long waiting queues due to a shortage of nurses and available doctors in some areas.

Swedish law stipulates patients should wait no more than 90 days to undergo surgery or see a specialist. Yet every third patient waits longer, according to government figures.

Swedes also complain about not being able to see their own regular general practitioner—and the ensuing lack of continuity—as a growing number of doctors and nurses are temporary hires employed by staffing companies.

In Solleftea, the premier's northern hometown with nearly 20,000 residents, the only maternity ward was shut down last year to save money.










						Swedes enjoy world-class healthcare—when they get it
					

Asia Nader didn't know whether to worry more about being diagnosed with a hole in her heart at the age of 21, or having to wait a year for Swedish doctors to fix it.




					medicalxpress.com


----------



## TravelTime (Apr 26, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> But Swedes are frustrated over their universal healthcare, one of the main pillars of their cherished welfare state, with long waiting queues due to a shortage of nurses and available doctors in some areas.
> 
> Swedish law stipulates patients should wait no more than 90 days to undergo surgery or see a specialist. Yet every third patient waits longer, according to government figures.
> 
> ...



I have heard this is a problem in many countries with government-run universal health care. Another problem with universal health care is rationing of services. This is a big problem in Japan.


----------



## isisdave (Apr 26, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Sweden is a country touted by a lot of people as an ideal place to live.  They do a lot of things very well, including recycling, my friend and pastor was just so impressed with the small amount of garbage each family has compared to the US.  Managing their health care system as a government entity (taxes are on everything you buy) is another reason people love Sweden so much.  They didn't shut down anything, and their population is getting immunity naturally.  I just saw a report on this and wondered why that is not something we could have done.  We will see in the end if they under-reacted or were too late to react.
> 
> 
> 
> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?



As of today, Sweden's had 2211 deaths in a population of 10 million. Neighboring Finland, where they sheltered early and continue to do so, has 175 in 5.5 million. That is, Sweden's death rate ... so far ... is almost 7 times that of Finland.

So I hope their experiment's results improve.  You might expect the same number to die eventually in each country, but the point of flattening is to allow time to get resources (PPE, beds, health care staff) prepared; not to overwhelm the workers with sharp rates of disease that contribute to their own infection; time to observe early cases to better understand the disease; time to come up with better treatment modalities; and finally time to develop a vaccine.


----------



## VacationForever (Apr 26, 2020)

I have not walked into a store in 6 weeks and have not missed it.  As long as I can order what I need online and get items shipped to me, I am fine sitting out until there is a vaccine or effective treatment.  In the past 6 weeks I have only used curbside pickup once for eggs, a box of butter and mozarella cheese from a restaurant.  I have not needed Instacart or Shipt type delivery yet and probably won't.

I am starting to grow a limited set of vegetables hydroponically indoor next week as several units of Aerogarden hydroponic system are being delivered.  That reduces our dependency on produce needs from farms and stores.  We will be growing tomatoes, bell peppers, jalapenos, leafy vegetables like romaine, bak choy, baby greens, napa cabbage, mustard greens and swiss chard, and herbs.


----------



## TravelTime (Apr 26, 2020)

isisdave said:


> As of today, Sweden's had 2211 deaths in a population of 10 million. Neighboring Finland, where they sheltered early and continue to do so, has 175 in 5.5 million. That is, Sweden's death rate ... so far ... is almost 7 times that of Finland.
> 
> So I hope their experiment's results improve.  You might expect the same number to die eventually in each country, but the point of flattening is to allow time to get resources (PPE, beds, health care staff) prepared; not to overwhelm the workers with sharp rates of disease that contribute to their own infection; time to observe early cases to better understand the disease; time to come up with better treatment modalities; and finally time to develop a vaccine.



A more accurate way to compare is to rank the countries by deaths per 1M Population. Looking at it this way, Sweden is 217 vs US is 165. Sweden is pretty high on the rankings but it is not the highest and it may not be so much worse off than we are. When this crisis is over, we will have a better idea of what strategies worked best. It is still to soon to assess.









						Coronavirus Update (Live): 126,033,763 Cases and 2,766,299 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer
					

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## Panina (Apr 26, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> A more accurate way to compare is to rank the countries by deaths per 1M Population. Looking at it this way, Sweden is 217 vs US is 165. Sweden is pretty high on the rankings but it is not the highest and it may not be so much worse off than we are. When this crisis is over, we will have a better idea of what strategies worked best. It is still to soon to assess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another aspect that we are not considering with comparing Sweden to the USA, our population is larger and even if we did not allow other countries to travel to us, we have lots of interstate traveling.

I think of Sweden as one state,  so if their problem is manageable that does not mean ours is.  New Yorkers could bring it to SC, Georgia to Florida, etc. It is different.  It is like comparing apples to oranges.


----------



## TravelTime (Apr 26, 2020)

Panina said:


> Another aspect that we are not considering with comparing Sweden to the USA, our population is larger and even if we did not allow other countries to travel to us, we have lots of interstate traveling.
> 
> I think of Sweden as one state,  so if their problem is manageable that does not mean ours is.  New Yorkers could bring it to SC, Georgia to Florida, etc. It is different.  It is like comparing apples to oranges.



@Panina Yes, every country has a unique situation. So when the experts compare country responses later on, they will need to look at differences and similarities to assess what worked best and why.


----------



## CO skier (Apr 27, 2020)

My wife is the grocery czar.  She scans the sales and knows exactly what she wants.

Overheard her say to my daugherter, "I am stressed-out by grocery shopping."  A while later (maybe a day) I asked her why she said she was "stressed" by grocery shopping and did it have anything to do with Covid-19.  She said, "Yes."  My reply was, "Why don't you let me do the shopping then?"  (I have zero stress about Covid-19 hysteria.)

After a day of thinking about it, she decided I should do the grocery shopping.  Yeah, a two-hour adventure at two grocery stores today, but zero stress on me.  (I kind of liked getting out of the house on a mission.)


----------



## "Roger" (Apr 27, 2020)

I have been following Sweden reading both the pro and con articles. When you look at the numbers below, you need to know that Sweden has a different ultimate goal. They are willing to let more people die hoping to establish herd immunity. Maybe that will work, maybe not. Anyone who says that they already now whether this strategy will work is blowing smoke. Only time will tell.

If it does work, success? Maybe from the point of pure statistics, but there is the human element. If some of those to die were your wife, your daughter in law, your grandchild's favorite teacher, then? I am not taking sides, just trying to state both sides.

The numbers:

Sweden:

Today's total new cases: 286
Cases per 1m: 1874
Deaths per 1m: 225

Denmark:

Today's total new cases: 123
Cases per 1m: 1502
Deaths per 1m: 73

Norway:

Today's total new cases: 34 (day old)
Cases per 1m: 1388
Deaths per 1m: 37

Finland:

Today's total new cases: 119
Cases per 1m: 847
Deaths per 1m: 34

A country that doesn't really belong in the comparison group, but I have been following is the Czech Republic, partly because the were one of the first to take extreme measures, but mostly because I got a kick out of the fact that they had a local controversy in that they allowed nudists to take to their lake beaches, but told them that they had to wear face masks.

Today's total new cases: 4
Cases per 1m: 692
Deaths per 1m: 21


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## PigsDad (Apr 27, 2020)

"Roger" said:


> I have been following Sweden reading both the pro and con articles. When you look at the numbers below, you need to know that Sweden has a different ultimate goal. *They are willing to let more people die hoping to establish herd immunity. *Maybe that will work, maybe not.


Not sure if that is their goal.  With the "flattening the curve" strategy, the curve is not as high and lengthened out, but the area under the curve (i.e. number of people infected) is the same.  The idea behind flattening was so the medical facilities would not be overrun and people would not be able to get the medical attention they needed and cause unnecessary deaths.  In Sweden, even though the curve was not flattened as much as in other places, the medical facilities have not been overrun, so that would indicate there has been no unnecessary deaths (some people will die from CV-18 even w/ medical attention).

So if flattening the curve doesn't change the number of people who will get infected, it means that it just changes *when* people will get infected.  It would make sense that we would see more cases earlier on in Sweden, but the total number of cases when this is all over may be the same as if they flattened the curve.  We really can't have an apples to apples comparison w/ the Sweden "experiment" until this is over.



> Anyone who says that they already now whether this strategy will work is blowing smoke. Only time will tell.



Exactly.  It will be interesting to see the data in the end.  Of course, by then this will be old news and the media probably won't even cover it as it won't provide any "shock factor" they seem to thrive on.

Kurt


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## geekette (Apr 27, 2020)

I have been watching "The Swedish Experiment" myself.  I wonder what happens when the old folks or otherwise-compromised people come out of hiding?  I am not sure how long herd immunity takes, something like 80% of the population?  But what if this nasty disease does not actually leave one immune?  I am not sure about mutating strains, either.  Will (hopefully) immune people that got Strain A maintain immunity against Strain B?    

I still feel like we are living in a gruesome sci fi with no clue how many more chapters are coming.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 27, 2020)

I don't know that Sweden was willing to just let people die.  That sounds harsh, but I do think people with underlying health conditions should still self-isolate as best as they can.  It's become obvious over the last 40 days that this virus has not reached the crazy numbers of deaths that were talked about early on. 

It may have been a mistake to shut down our country for this virus.  So much more damage is being done.  We have to get back to life as normal sooner rather than later.

Grocery shopping is something Rick has been doing mostly.  We decided only one of us should go to the store.  I am content to be at home.


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## TravelTime (Apr 27, 2020)

Sweden did not have a do nothing approach. They recommended social distancing for everyone, that people who can should work from home, that older people and at risk people self-isolate, that businesses implement social distancing and that groups above 50 not gather. What they did not do is order mass shutdowns of businesses and schools or ask all people to stay home 24/7. The government says that if they feel their approach is not working, then they will order stricter measures.


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## MrockStar (Apr 27, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Sweden is a country touted by a lot of people as an ideal place to live.  They do a lot of things very well, including recycling, my friend and pastor was just so impressed with the small amount of garbage each family has compared to the US.  Managing their health care system as a government entity (taxes are on everything you buy) is another reason people love Sweden so much.  They didn't shut down anything, and their population is getting immunity naturally.  I just saw a report on this and wondered why that is not something we could have done.  We will see in the end if they under-reacted or were too late to react.
> 
> 
> 
> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?


We did, 1968 Hong Cong Flu pandemic 100,000 Americans lost there lives it was a really bad year Too! Vietnam war, Democratic convention Riots, Protest: But somehow we made it through and kept working.


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