# Just got my Wyndham 2011 Assessment--13% Increase



## regatta333 (Dec 17, 2010)

Wow!  I can't believe the assessment went up almost 13% from last year.  The highest I've ever seen since I've owned has been 6%--more than double.


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## jjmanthei05 (Dec 17, 2010)

Where was it for or is that across the board?

Jason


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## regatta333 (Dec 17, 2010)

jjmanthei05 said:


> Where was it for or is that across the board?
> 
> Jason


This was the average for the 4 Wyndham points properties that we own.


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## Timeshare Von (Dec 17, 2010)

Given Nashville appears to be in your portfolio, I'm wondering if that was part of the large increase.


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## ldw (Dec 19, 2010)

Ours went up 17% and with the RCI changes that really makes it hard to see the value in owning verses renting.


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 19, 2010)

ldw said:


> Ours went up 17% and with the RCI changes that really makes it hard to see the value in owning verses renting.



I was just last night talking to a guest at Wyndham who regularly rents from this Platimum VIP owner. He was smug about how he has nothing (not $1 dollar) tied up in timeshares either in purchase cost or ongoing MFs. He just calls up his "friend - the VIP Platimum owner", gets all the discounts of the Platimum membership, no hassle with the reservation system or rules, and just pays him for the rental at cost. Said the guy enjoys booking these vacations for him. 

Oh, he goes to the owners updates just to get the loot.

Wyndham won't ever convert this guy to becoming an owner or a Extra Vacation renter. And he said he would NEVER buy a TS.


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## timeos2 (Dec 19, 2010)

*One the weasels can't win*



vacationhopeful said:


> =
> 
> Oh, he goes to the owners updates just to get the loot.
> 
> Wyndham won't ever convert this guy to becoming an owner or a Extra Vacation renter. And he said he would NEVER buy a TS.



Wise man. Using the system completely to his benefit.  More power to him. While we still prefer holding ownership (=better control, given the right system/resort) there is a very strong case to be made for his approach. I especially enjoy the picture of the cocky Wyndham sales weasel pitching his usual line of misrepresentations and general FUD to a potential victim that just may play the game better than the professional.


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## bnoble (Dec 19, 2010)

> There have been many threads on whether they could raise the points in the point charts for existing, older Wyndham resorts. The consensus seems to be that that would be next to impossible for them to do.


For converted fixed weeks, it is not hard at all.  The conversion contract includes language that specifically allows it (though there are limits as to how far/fast it can change.)  My reading is that if they change what it costs to book a particular week, they must also change what they give to the owner who owns it, but change they could.  I don't think it has happened yet, but there are a couple of places where they probably should.  For example, Orlando has two different seasonal calendars, one for Bonnet Creek, and one for the three older ones.  (Reunion may have yet a third, I haven't looked.)  They should probably be the same; it is unlikely that there are strong differences between them.


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## regatta333 (Dec 19, 2010)

Timeshare Von said:


> Given Nashville appears to be in your portfolio, I'm wondering if that was part of the large increase.



No, that was in line with the other three.


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## regatta333 (Dec 20, 2010)

*Do not recall getting any of my Annual Proxies this year.*

Now that I think about it, I do not recall having received any proxies from the boards of my Wyndham properties this year, which show the annual budget, etc.

Guess I will need to contact the boards and find out what is going on.

Did any Wyndam owners received proxies this year?


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 20, 2010)

They are not the only business or industry who keeps their heads in a glass bubble.:annoyed: A knowledgeable manager of any business understands that the customer does have limits - just because you put a price tag on something for the amount of money _YOU_ think it is worth, does not make it so.

Some segments of business have a harder time understand that - sales is one. Some sales organizations price items too low for manufacturing, so as to easily make their sales quotas. Others price themselves out of the market, but use false promises to imply a better product with smoke and mirrors, etc. 

Timeshare systems seem to believe their own marketing hype. What worked 10 years ago, does not now. The internet, the employment status, morals of owners (i.e.walk-aways), vacationing modes - have been external changes to their business environment. US car manufacturers have been a prime example in the past 15-20 years of failure to adapt.

Yes, I have gotten proxies for my Wyndham units - Ocean Walk, Nashville, and the Pompano properties.


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## bnoble (Dec 20, 2010)

> Did any Wyndam owners received proxies this year?


I did for Sea Gardens.  I don't recall the exact number, but the increase in the budget (at Waterfalls) seemed reasonable.  I don't think it was double-digit percentages, but could be wrong.


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## richardm (Dec 20, 2010)

*Great comment...*



vacationhopeful said:


> They are not the only business or industry who keeps their heads in a glass bubble.:annoyed: A knowledgeable manager of any business understands that the customer does have limits - just because you put a price tag on something for the amount of money _YOU_ think it is worth, does not make it so.
> 
> Some segments of business have a harder time understand that - sales is one. Some sales organizations price items too low for manufacturing, so as to easily make their sales quotas. Others price themselves out of the market, but use false promises to imply a better product with smoke and mirrors, etc.
> 
> Timeshare systems seem to believe their own marketing hype. What worked 10 years ago, does not now. The internet, the employment status, morals of owners (i.e.walk-aways), vacationing modes - have been external changes to their business environment. US car manufacturers have been a prime example in the past 15-20 years of failure to adapt.



Great comments.. Thank you! 

As the industry aged, many of the players have simply become too large, too slow to react, and too resistant to change to survive.. They have either disappeared, or been swallowed up by the bigger fish.. 

The question now is whether or not the bigger fish can survive...


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## levatino (Dec 20, 2010)

*is $4.64 per thousand now a decent price for 336k points*

i used to be proud of my points/thousand rate  (3.95/thousand), however am wondering if it is now worth it in light ofthe mf increase...  

What do you think/how do we compare?

thanks,
Paul


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## bnoble (Dec 20, 2010)

Anything sub-$5 is pretty good, IMO.


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 20, 2010)

richardm said:


> The question now is whether or not the bigger fish can survive...



And bigger in the timeshare world only meant several years ago ACCESS to larger banking 'lines of credit'. These historic low, low interest rates will go away. When that happens, the timeshare giants cashflow issues most likely implode.

I, personally, find it highly unlikely that a sales-lead company would employ accountants who have practice conservative fiscal policies (ever!).


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## timeos2 (Dec 20, 2010)

*Do we have a new candidate to be worst of the worst in timeshare?*



regatta333 said:


> Now that I think about it, I do not recall having received any proxies from the boards of my Wyndham properties this year, which show the annual budget, etc.
> 
> Guess I will need to contact the boards and find out what is going on.
> 
> Did any Wyndam owners received proxies this year?



Got ours with the usual sham Wyndham employed or related candidates (and noticeably missing a couple well qualified owners I know put in candidate sheets. The explanation?  "We missed them". Yeah, right). 

We voted for the two that seemed least beholden to Wyndham but saw no results as we never can see any Board minutes or any other information we should have as owners.  Wyndham is doing it's level best to be the "new" Wastegate I'm convinced.


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## w.bob (Dec 20, 2010)

I am trying to understand the assessment letter I received. I own 231000 pts at Kona Hawaiian resort. I purchased resale last year and used it in Sept of this year. I am basically new to the Wyndham system and I want to be sure I am looking at the overall picture correctly.

This past September I received a bill titled CLUB WYNDHAM PLUS ASSESSMENT STATEMENT which was a bill due in Sept 20, 2010.

The HOA fee was $890.96, Program fee $131.67 which was based on .57 cents per 1000 points. The total due was $1022.63.  

I recently received a 2011 Annual CLUB WYNDHAM PLUS ASSESSMENT SUMMARY which is not a bill. The summary gave a more detailed breakdown of fees than the bill I received in Sept. 2010. 

The fees were listed as follows;
HOA Maintenance Fees $830.15
HOA Reserve Fund $149.47
Property Tax $32.93
Local Tax 39.98
Total $1052.53

Program Fee based on .51 cent per 1000 pts = $117.81 

Total of $1170.34

According to this summary the program fee has gone down from 2010. Is the program fee set by the resort you own through and every resort pays a different fee rate or is it set for all Wyndham Plus properties and everyone pays the .51 cents per 1000 pts?

Because I did not receive a 2010 summary and only a bill for 2010 I cannot compare the charges form 1010 to 2011, but it appears that the maint fees went down aprrox. $60.00 along with the program fee but there is now a $149.47 reserve fund charge added. Can any Kona Hawaiian Resort owners confirm this?

Now if I understand it correctly the Summary I received is what my 2011 bill will be based on even though I will not receive my bill until Sept 2011. Actually I am assuming my bill will come in Sept 2011 since I received last years in Sept 2010. None of this was explained when I purchased so I need to understand it.


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## Tia (Dec 20, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> ....  It is very apparent that Wyndham is going after every dollar they can. They have suddenly gone from virtually ignoring collections to a new, high intensity push along with some seriously hefty late fees and penalties....



So true as this benefits their bottom line, where the other was spread among all owners. Are you sure they were really paying their maint. fees anyway?


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## shaun401 (Dec 20, 2010)

w.bob said:


> According to this summary the program fee has gone down from 2010. Is the program fee set by the resort you own through and every resort pays a different fee rate or is it set for all Wyndham Plus properties and everyone pays the .51 cents per 1000 pts?



The program fee rate is based on the total number of points you own as well as whether you are part of the plus partners.  Don't know if this is changing for 2011, but here are the rates per point level for 2010 for non plus partners/plus partners:
<154k - flat fee 88.12/107.08
154,001 to 299,999 - .57/.69
300k and up - .51/.53


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## Rob&Carol Q (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm almost embarassed...Not only did Kingsgate send me a "no MF Increase" ltr but they also explain (very well, I would add) the $5 daily fee for users.

*AND*

They included an actual budget and a proposed 2011 budget.

Can't say I have the same feelings as most of the rest of the poster on this thread...


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## Conan (Dec 20, 2010)

I own at Seawatch (Myrtle Beach) and although it's one of the highest cost locations, there's very little increase from 2010 to 2011 (2% on one section of the property and 4/10ths of a percent on the other).  

Including the program fees, I'll be paying $5.68 per 1,000 points


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## WALLstAL (Dec 20, 2010)

Monarch Grand Vacations just went up 10%, where does this crap end, never.
They threaten you with ruining your Fico and liens.
3.90ct a point, I have 421 pt. Ouch !


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## hjtug (Dec 20, 2010)

shaun401 said:


> The program fee rate is based on the total number of points you own as well as whether you are part of the plus partners.  Don't know if this is changing for 2011, but here are the rates per point level for 2010 for non plus partners/plus partners:
> <154k - flat fee 88.12/107.08
> 154,001 to 299,999 - .57/.69
> 300k and up - .51/.53



We have contracts, without plus partners, for 105K every odd year and 128K every even year.  Last year we paid a total of .57 times (105+128)/2 = $66.41, which might be viewed as consistent with the second category you mention.  It would seem that for some reason they switched us for 2011 from the second to the third category, which I don't mind, and stopped dividing by 2, which I don't like.   If correct, our new fee will be exactly .51 times (105+128) = $118.83.  I have been wondering why some folks with an EOY contract have said that their fee has doubled while ours didn't increase quite that much.  Now I am thinking that perhaps Wyndham decided to stop dividing by 2 for EOY contracts but to use twice the number of points to determine the category.


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## bnoble (Dec 20, 2010)

> We have contracts, without plus partners, for 105K every odd year and 128K every even year.


Without knowing how anything works, I would assume that the correct fee is $88.12/year.  Your "annual" point total is (105+128)/2, or 116.5, which is less than 154K.


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## regatta333 (Dec 20, 2010)

*Star Island appears to be the culprit*

Just dug out my 2009 YE statement and compared contract by contract.  Three of the four contracts appear completely reasonable.  The HOA fees for Star Island have increased by 25%, 29% if I exclude the property tax component which only increased by 1.6%.


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## janej (Dec 20, 2010)

regatta333 said:


> Just dug out my 2009 YE statement and compared contract by contract.  Three of the four contracts appear completely reasonable.  The HOA fees for Star Island have increased by 25%, 29% if I exclude the property tax component which only increased by 1.6%.



I also own at the Star Island.  I am a little confused by the statement though.  I think I paid tax separately this year.  For my 168K EOY points, my current payment is 359.52, next year is $434.28.  I am pretty sure the current number does not include tax since I paid tax just recently.  If I take tax out of next year's payment, it is only $370.44, not much of an increase at all.   I read somewhere that Wyndham started to include tax in the monthly payment 2-3 years ago.  But that is not the case for me, at least not this year.


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## hjtug (Dec 20, 2010)

bnoble said:


> Without knowing how anything works, I would assume that the correct fee is $88.12/year.  Your "annual" point total is (105+128)/2, or 116.5, which is less than 154K.



It has been pointed out by Glenn on the Wyndham owners forum that they have not been dividing by two in previous years to determine his program fee rate category and that is what also seems to be true in my case.


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## bnoble (Dec 20, 2010)

> I don't recall the exact number, but the increase in the budget (at Waterfalls) seemed reasonable. I don't think it was double-digit percentages, but could be wrong.


I went back and double checked.  I was wrong; the increase was substantial.  I'll have to go back and re-read the proposed budget to figure out why.


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## regatta333 (Dec 20, 2010)

janej said:


> I also own at the Star Island.  I am a little confused by the statement though.  I think I paid tax separately this year.  For my 168K EOY points, my current payment is 359.52, next year is $434.28.  I am pretty sure the current number does not include tax since I paid tax just recently.  If I take tax out of next year's payment, it is only $370.44, not much of an increase at all.   I read somewhere that Wyndham started to include tax in the monthly payment 2-3 years ago.  But that is not the case for me, at least not this year.



My 2011 assessment includes property tax, which was not included in the 2010 statement, but billed separately.  If I exclude the property tax, 2010 assessment for 189,000 points was $735; for 2011, it is $949.38


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## janej (Dec 20, 2010)

regatta333 said:


> My 2011 assessment includes property tax, which was not included in the 2010 statement, but billed separately.  If I exclude the property tax, 2010 assessment for 189,000 points was $735; for 2011, it is $949.38



My ratio for 2010 was higher than yours and 2011 is lower than yours.  Does Star Island have different phases?


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## jjpdjr (Dec 20, 2010)

what is the reserve fund portion for?


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## DrBopp (Dec 20, 2010)

*Program Doubled*



hjtug said:


> It has been pointed out by Glenn on the Wyndham owners forum that they have not been dividing by two in previous years to determine his program fee rate category and that is what also seems to be true in my case.



My program fee doubled from $32.13 to $64.26 because Wyndham charges me for every year use on the program fee. That can't be legal! I get to use 126K points every even year. Wyndham's explanation is that they charge the $.51 on the total contract points, 280K. But since I have 126K EOY even, my contract total for 2011 would be 154K, not 280K. You can't can't charge me money on what I don't have. Now in the past, they have spread the cost over two years and that is ok. Or they could charge me one year and not the next. But they can't charge you for points you do not have. I can't see it.

I sent an email online and I am waiting to see what kind of response I get from them IN WRITING. Here it is:

 I just got my 2011 assesments and it is one part I do not understand. Although I am not happy with the rise in fees per thousand points, I do realize the need to keep cost in line with expenditures to insure a profitable run resort structure. However, I think that you are illegally charging EOY users Program Fees and here is why;
1) According to the letter I received that explains all of the charges, it states that the program fee is charged on total contract points. Since I have an Every Other Year Contract and the upcoming year 2011 is an odd year, the 126,000 points are not a part of my contract for this year. My letter states that my total contract is 280,000, which consists of 154,000 annual points + 126,000 EOY Even points. So the points I would receive for 2011 are 154, 000, not 280,000. If I use 2012 points in 2011, then in 2012 I would only have 154,000 points and not 280,000. There is no way I can have it both ways, so I can't legally be charged both ways. My total Contract points for 2011 is 154,000. I should be charge as such,
2) I am being penalized for having an EOY contract and having to pay twice as much or the same as a member who has 126,000 points every year. This memeber gets to use these points, deposit them into RCI or II and do anything they please. I only have half the capability, yet I have to pay the same fee. This is not right and needs to be revisited.
3)I have no idea what made the planners decide to penalize EOY members, but on the face of i, it is a poor strategy at best and an illegal action at  worse. I don't want to bear the burden with these unequitable charges. If this company needs funds, then the funds should come from all of the members equally and the cost distributed evenly depending on how many points a members has and not the type of points a member has.
 I hope that you would reconsider your actions(plans) concerning this matter and make for a more equitable situation. Thank you for any and all considerations.

Truly,
Gordon XXXXXXXXXX


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## massvacationer (Dec 21, 2010)

bnoble said:


> I went back and double checked.  I was wrong; the increase was substantial.  I'll have to go back and re-read the proposed budget to figure out why.




Brian

I was looking at possibly buying a Waterfalls contract last summer and I emailed the resort manager about upcoming assesments...he said they were planning a total renovation of waterfalls (they are doing most other areas of Sea Gardens as well)....he said the SA would be $400-$700 per unit

Dave


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## bnoble (Dec 21, 2010)

There hasn't been an assessment yet, just an increase.  Still not bad, around $4.35/K all told.

Honestly, the fees here have been low, and the units are probably in need of some refurbishing.  I would have preferred to have been paying a slightly higher amount for capital reserves rather than have an assessment, but all things considered this is not entirely unreasonable.  Perhaps that's why the amount has gone up as well.  I will have to dig out my budget info.


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## janej (Dec 21, 2010)

*Any action we can take?*

Is there some action we can take against Wyndham?  Wyndham clearly does not care about the members, so there is no point writing to them.  I am not talking about a lawsuit.  It is too costly.  Is the timeshare industry regulated?   Any consumer protection agency we can write to?   The calculation of EOY contract program fee is clearly documented in the Wyndham directory.  How could they just decide one day to double it from now on?  

I have a coworker who used the consumer protection agency in our county to complain about Macy and Best Buy for some disputes that were going nowhere.  Both cases were resolved within days.  I don't think it will be as easy to revert the policy changes.  But we have to do something or there will be no end to this trend.


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## bccash63 (Dec 21, 2010)

My fees for Pagosa increased from $652/182,000 pts to $803.  This is quite a substantial increase.


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## newenglandusa (Dec 21, 2010)

*Fees at Wyndham are not the only problem*

This is my 1st post on this site, I too own a Wyndham timeshare and two others (not Wyndham). I believe these fees affect EOY owners due to a billing change. It will come out to the same thing in the end. Given what I receive from Wyndham even with this increase they are giving me good value IMO. Based on what I own I am currently a Happy Owner the problem lies if you want out, they should have a program where owners could vote to convert these resorts into condos once again.  This would create a new market for all these points people want to sell. I believe if you take points off the market there will be more demand for them in the future. Every owner wants to be able to sell what they bought not have to pay someone else to take it from them. Hopefully 2011 will be the turnaround year for the economy this would be a big help. Best Wishes to All


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## rcletterly (Dec 21, 2010)

*Wyndham 2011 assessment fees*

Strange;  we had a slight increase this year.  We are Club Wyndham Access owners.  We own 287,000 points.

As for the years before:
2010 $5.76/yr increase or .38 %
2011 $5.64/yr increase or .33 %


We are Happy.


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## retire06 (Dec 21, 2010)

I agree that there must be some means of protesting the doubling of our EOY program fee.  When I asked the Owner Services rep for an address or name to write to, she did not comply and reiterated that the decision was made by the "Board" in conjunction with POAs.  I can't believe that every POA agreed to this and if so, where was the member's opportunity to contribute to that decision?
It is not substantial in amount, it is the principle of the thing I am wanting to protest somewhere, as well as the concern that if this fee is so easy to double, what will be next?


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## janej (Dec 21, 2010)

I found The Timeshare Consumer Protection web site has a few links for filing complain at BBB, Association of Consumer Agency Administrators  (NACAA), and FTC.  The problem is that most of the timeshare complains are handled by the real estate board of the State.  Where should we file complain about Wyndham?

I checked BBB and found report for Wyndham headquarter here.  



Here is their report summary.  It looks like they resolved most complaints.  We should all file complains for Billing issues.

Based on BBB files, *this business has a BBB Rating of F* on a scale from A+ to F.

Reasons for this rating include:
921 complaints filed against business
27 complaints filed against business that were not resolved.
25 serious complaints filed against business.


These complaints concerned :
+ 86		 regarding Advertising Issues 
+ 127		 regarding Billing or Collection Issues 
+ 99		 regarding Contract Issues 
+ 49		 regarding Customer Service Issues 
+ 8		 regarding Delivery Issues 
+ 1		 regarding Guarantee or Warranty Issues 
+ 2		 regarding Product Issues 
+ 77		 regarding Refund or Exchange Issues 
+ 2		 regarding Repair Issues 
+ 428		 regarding Sales Practice Issues 
+ 42		 regarding Service Issues 

These complaints were closed as:
+ 694		Resolved 
+ 27		Unresolved 
+ 200		Administratively Closed


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## carl2591 (Dec 21, 2010)

janej said:


> Based on BBB files, *this business has a BBB Rating of F* on a scale from A+ to F.



WOW theirs a shocker.. Wyndham rate an "F" for Failure.. another reason not to own at Wyndham.. 

man the hits just keep coming.. cant wait to hear/see the next round of things Wyndham does for it "owners"


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## Sandy VDH (Dec 21, 2010)

My guess would be that Reserve Fees are the source for bulk of the increases.  I think because they have been caught short on several properties that needed SA just to bring the resorts up to date, they are now taking on the cash in advance and are funding reserve funds better (or perhaps they are over funding reserves).

In general I don't think that reserves are are bad idea.   I just wish they were not no so aggresive.  I had 1 resort that went up 26%, and 24% of that was the reserve fund. This was for Sea Garden waterfall.  And now I read on this post they are talking about a SA on top of that.  That stinks, especially back to back.

Just in case you did not notice, the last line on the back side of the Annual Summary Notice Definitions and Explaination page, that is specific to Florida Property Owners.

"For your convenience, starting is 2011, FL Prop Taxes will be collected, as a seperate line time, with your monthly/annual dues."  You will no longer get a seperate bill for property tax in FL.


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## Timeshare Von (Dec 21, 2010)

I'm pretty happy with my fees at Myrtle Beach/Westwinds . . . which are overall pretty high as compared to other UDI contracts.  Here is the MF history since I acquired this 77k contract:

2007: MF $406.56 + $83.70 Prog Fee = $490.26
2008: MF $440.44 + $86.82 PF = $527.26
2009: MF $492.03 + $88.12 PF = $580.15
2010: MF $500.50 + $88.12 PF = $588.62
2011: MF $516.67 + $88.12 PF = $604.79 

For 2011's fees, here is the detail:

MF $4.95 = $381.15
Reserve Fund $1.42 = $109.34
PPTx $0.34 = $26.18 



Von


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## shaun401 (Dec 21, 2010)

Sandy Lovell said:


> Just in case you did not notice, the last line on the back side of the Annual Summary Notice Definitions and Explaination page, that is specific to Florida Property Owners.
> 
> "For your convenience, starting is 2011, FL Prop Taxes will be collected, as a seperate line time, with your monthly/annual dues."  You will no longer get a seperate bill for property tax in FL.



That's funny, I didn't get this note although one of the properties in my collection is in Florida.


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## joestein (Dec 22, 2010)

massvacationer said:


> Brian
> 
> I was looking at possibly buying a Waterfalls contract last summer and I emailed the resort manager about upcoming assesments...he said they were planning a total renovation of waterfalls (they are doing most other areas of Sea Gardens as well)....he said the SA would be $400-$700 per unit
> 
> Dave



I think that is where I own at Sea Gardens.  Oh well, as the other poster said, it doesn't seem unreasonable.

Joe


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## Sandy VDH (Dec 22, 2010)

shaun401 said:


> That's funny, I didn't get this note although one of the properties in my collection is in Florida.



It was not a note.  It was subtle inclusion in the annual assessment page that explained the new format.  I didn't notice it until I read the definitions and explainations for the third time.   Look at the last line of the definitions and explanations on the back side of the page.


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## massvacationer (Dec 22, 2010)

Sandy Lovell said:


> In general I don't think that reserves are are bad idea.   I just wish they were not no so aggressive.  I had 1 resort that went up 26%, and 24% of that was the reserve fund. This was for Sea Garden waterfall.  And now I read on this post they are talking about a SA on top of that.  That stinks, especially back to back.
> 
> JL.



Sandy

You should check as the increase in the reserve fund may (or may not) be used to pay for the renovations...so perhaps they are collecting the money for the renovations at Waterfalls over time via increased reserved funds and maybe you won't have a separate special assessment...i don't know but you may want to get some financials from the resort to see.


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## totalfarkuser (Dec 22, 2010)

*Screwed*

yup, I got screwed by their EOY "change" as well... so I am up around 25% over 2010 now too.  That combines with the "changes" to the II program where it takes nearly 3x the points to exchange into a studio low demand now... forget a few years ago we can't buy points from others anymore, I am disgusted and regret buying my contract, but what can you do?  Wyndham and its execs will get their own sometime (I am telling myself that to feel better, they will all get golden chutes like all execs do)... Thank GOD I bought resale, that is the ONLY good news since buying....


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## jjpdjr (Dec 22, 2010)

I'm at $5.09 per K.  Pretty soon my MF will be higher than what my vacation is worth.


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## HtownRose (Dec 23, 2010)

http://ethisphere.com/wme2010/

Need a good laugh?  Wyndham is now touting itself as winner of one of the world's most ethical companies!

See website above, I'm sure it's bought & paid for, but when I attended a weasel-fest, er owner update, in the Smoky Mountains TN this fall they were sooo proud LOL.


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## Carol C (Dec 23, 2010)

We went from $5.75 to $5.89 per 1K pts. Alas our El Cid contracts in Mexico are rolled into the entire Wyn pts package we pay for...and they have really high annual maint fees there (higher than our UDI at Wyn Old Town Alexandria, surprisingly enough). Labor's cheap in Mexico...so why are El Cid maint fees sky-high?!!   :annoyed:


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## am1 (Dec 23, 2010)

You must own a converted fixed week el cid contract in low season.


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## regatta333 (Dec 28, 2010)

jjmanthei05 said:


> I just got off the phone with Denise in the collections department at star island. She confirmed that the MF for a 2 bed lockoff was $895 with the break down of  $768 for the MF and $127 for taxes. So Wyndham is double billing us for the taxes as they have a separate line item for the 127 + the 895. Does anyone know who I would have to talk to to get this corrected?
> 
> Jason



It's actually $895 +55 that Wyndham added in so they wouldn't have to do a yearend building to collect the actual amount less the estimate.  Last year, that amount was $35.  So, they are expecting it to be 57% higher this year?  If the actual amount turns out be be less than the estimate, are they going to send everyone a check for the difference?


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## Merilyn (Dec 29, 2010)

I hope I didn't miss read my statement from Smoky Mountain. I think it only went up about a dollar a month for my 405000 points. I just bought this year so I have never seen a statement before. It was a single page, and it said monthly dues (or whatever it said) for 2011 was only about a dollar more. It did have the amounts for the maintenance and program fee separate. I really don't know what it said as I was just interested in the monthly payment.


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## jjmanthei05 (Dec 29, 2010)

I called Smoky mountains about my deed there and I think it only went up 3 or 4 cents per thousand so your $1\month sounds about right.

Jason


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## massvacationer (Dec 31, 2010)

*$70 too high????  a Mistake??*

I have a fixed week (at Glade) that has been converted to Wyndham points.  The resort POA sent me a letter that shows what the 2011 resort maintenance fees are.  But the club wyndham statment has them listed as higher by $72....

So, I called the reosrt POA and they were very nice and confirmed that the 2011 fees are correct on the letter that they sent....

I though maybe the $72 is a catch-up from 2010 as I know with fixed weeks that are converted to points, you sometimes have to pay a catch-up, if the actual costs are more than the amount that you have paid for a year....this is because points owners pay in advance and non-converted weeks pay in arears.....

So I asked the resort POA what the final 2010 fees were...they said they are the amount that I had paid for 2010....so no catch-up


So, then I called Club Wyndham Finance, and the rep gave me what sounded like  a canned response that they are "sorry for the confusion and that the amount on the 2011 Club Wyndham statemnet is correct"...she could not explain any more than that....

Anyway,  I don't know what is going on with this.   I have no idea why the Club wyndham statement is higher.   I encourage others to examine their statements closely.


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## regatta333 (Dec 31, 2010)

massvacationer said:


> I have a fixed week that has been converted to Wyndham points.  The resort POA sent me a letter that shows what the 2011 resort maintenance fees are.  But the club wyndham statment has them listed as higher by $72....
> 
> So, I called the reosrt POA and they were very nice and confirmed that the 2011 fees are correct on the letter that they sent....
> 
> ...



The person I had spoken to in the Finance dept, along with his manager, insisted that we are being billed for 2012, which does not make sense to me since the statement clearly says 2011.


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## massvacationer (Dec 31, 2010)

well they have rolled out a new statement format this year....so maybe they messed this up?  ......could the answer be as simple as they made some mistakes when creating the new statements ???  As far as 2012...how would they even know what to charge for 2012????

Honestly.... Wyndham resorts themselves tend to be very well-run, by high quality people...The resort POAs and resort management are always helpful to me...they answer questions honestly and really care about what they do....

but sometimes the communications that we get from the central wyndham corporate functions seems to be not as clear


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## bookworm (Dec 31, 2010)

I had a discrepancy with my Patriot's Place fixed week as well - only a few dollars. I called Wyndham finance to point it out and was also told I need to speak to the POA.  When I called I was trying to alert them to the error so they could check in with the resort and be sure they were correct. I assumed this might effect many owners. I was told they don't do that. They just charge what the resort tells them to. Huh? I find it troubling that they would not consider the possibility that there is a mistake and want to check if their records are correct. 

The other thing that was odd occured when I asked when she thought I would be billed for the difference. She said I would not be billed. What? So they will make up the $10 or so difference they think I still owe? This makes no sense. 

On the upside, neither my Patriot's Place nor Sapphire Valley had any fee increases this year (according to the POA of course).


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## siesta (Dec 31, 2010)

my MF remained the same


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## bnoble (Dec 31, 2010)

So, I have not yet called my home resort, but I have a couple of guesses as to what is going on.



> The person I had spoken to in the Finance dept, along with his manager, insisted that we are being billed for 2012, which does not make sense to me since the statement clearly says 2011.


Converted fixed weeks *do* pay one year in advance, spread out over the year.  So, the monthly payments you make in 2011 *are* for the 2012 use-year.  In contrast, UDI contracts pay during their use year.  So, for UDI contracts, the payments you make during 2011 are for the 2011 use year.




> also have no idea why the fees would be so much higher for a converted week. Other than the program fee, which is a separate charge, why would the maintenace be so much higher?


Normally, converted fixed week resorts are billed the amount one year prior.  So, during 2010, you paid the *2010* MF amount, rather than the (correct) 2011 amount, divided by 12, monthly.  Then, near the end of the year, or possibly early in the next year, we would get a separate bill for the difference between 2011 and 2010 MFs.  This is because, usually, most HOAs do not set the next year's MF amount until fairly late in the year prior.

So, I'm wondering---rather than billing us separately for the difference between 2010 and 2011---if the new monthly amount for 2011 includes both the usual increase from 2010 to 2011 MFs (for the estimated costs of 2012), *plus* the difference between 2011 and 2010 to account for the gap in the 2011 use year.  That would make sense---that way they don't have to do separate collections for everything, and could fold it all into the "standard" monthly payment.  And, it would actually be nicer for us; rather than paying the 2011-2010 deficit as a lump sum at the end of 2010, we can spread it out over 2011.

When I finally get my credit pool snafu straightened out (don't ask...) I will try to call my home resort and get the numbers for 2010 and 2011, to see if this holds water.


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## regatta333 (Dec 31, 2010)

bnoble said:


> Normally, converted fixed week resorts are billed the amount one year prior.  So, during 2010, you paid the *2010* MF amount, rather than the (correct) 2011 amount, divided by 12, monthly.  Then, near the end of the year, or possibly early in the next year, we would get a separate bill for the difference between 2011 and 2010 MFs.  This is because, usually, most HOAs do not set the next year's MF amount until fairly late in the year prior.
> 
> So, I'm wondering---rather than billing us separately for the difference between 2010 and 2011---if the new monthly amount for 2011 includes both the usual increase from 2010 to 2011 MFs (for the estimated costs of 2012), *plus* the difference between 2011 and 2010 to account for the gap in the 2011 use year.  That would make sense---that way they don't have to do separate collections for everything, and could fold it all into the "standard" monthly payment.  And, it would actually be nicer for us; rather than paying the 2011-2010 deficit as a lump sum at the end of 2010, we can spread it out over 2011.



The difference is just too large for this to be the source of the problem.  Last year, I had to pay a $35 overage.  I just got the 2011 budget from Star Island.  The property tax and reserves amounts match up.  According to their figures, the maintenance amount per interval should be $674, compared to the $849 Wyndham is billing me.  If I factor in the reserve amount and assume they are budgeting at 2010 amounts, that would mean I underpaid 2010 by $40.  Wyndham's bill is $175 higher.  Just doesn't make sense.


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## massvacationer (Jan 2, 2011)

*2012 = (2011 - 2010) + 2011 + (2.5% times 2011)*



bnoble said:


> So, I have not yet called my home resort, but I have a couple of guesses as to what is going on.
> 
> 
> Converted fixed weeks *do* pay one year in advance, spread out over the year.  So, the monthly payments you make in 2011 *are* for the 2012 use-year.  In contrast, UDI contracts pay during their use year.  So, for UDI contracts, the payments you make during 2011 are for the 2011 use year.
> ...



I think Brian may have figured this out.   I played around with this for my converted fixed week.

To create a 2012 forceasted maintenance fee for my converted fixed week (which is what I would pay during 2011), I took the difference between my 2011 (per my resort) and 2010 maintenance fees and add it to my 2011 maintenance fees (that my resort POA provided).  PLUS add 2.5% (I assume this is a forecasted increase based on inflation) of the total 2011 resort maintenance fee, I arrive exactly at the total number that Wyndham says they want to charge during 2011 (AKA the 2012 maint fees).

Does this work for other folks with converted fixed weeks?

-Dave


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## regatta333 (Jan 3, 2011)

massvacationer said:


> Does this work for other folks with converted fixed weeks?
> 
> -Dave



Not even close for Star Island.  The difference is just too big.  See my previous post.


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## massvacationer (Jan 3, 2011)

regatta333 said:


> Not even close for Star Island.  The difference is just too big.  See my previous post.



regatta:

Is the change in the way that they are handling Florida property taxes causing this?   

Is the increase roughly equal to 2 times the property taxes on your Star Island Unit ?


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## regatta333 (Jan 3, 2011)

massvacationer said:


> regatta:
> 
> Is the change in the way that they are handling Florida property taxes causing this?
> 
> Is the increase roughly equal to 2 times the property taxes on your Star Island Unit ?



Yes, in one of my previous posts, I indicated that I suspected they were doublecounting it, but can not get anyone to verify that or explain what justifies this type of increase, if if is correct.


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## Tia (Jan 3, 2011)

regatta333 said:


> Yes, in one of my previous posts, I indicated that I suspected they were doublecounting it, but can not get anyone to verify that or explain what justifies this type of increase, if if is correct.



Could it be they got caught with said hand in cookie jar? Collecting a year ahead on taxes?


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## massvacationer (Jan 3, 2011)

regatta333 said:


> Yes, in one of my previous posts, I indicated that I suspected they were doublecounting it, but can not get anyone to verify that or explain what justifies this type of increase, if if is correct.


 

Just a guess:
Perhaps, instead of sending you a separate tax bill for the latest tax-year, they are adding those taxes to the amount you are paying during 2011 - as well as including the projected taxes for the next fiscal year, in the amount you are paying during 2011......

this would not be double counting as they are just spreading your last tax bill over each month of next year as well as including the projected taxes for the next tax-year in the amount you will be paying during 2011......If this is the case, I would think that when you get to paying fees in 2012 you will be back to only paying taxes for one year

This is frustrating as the communications on this to us owners has been less than clear


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## Sandy VDH (Jan 4, 2011)

I am on the phone with them now, on hold, obviously.  They do not even know what they did.  I got a supervisor on the phone.  Pointed out two things that are wrong in their calculations, and I am not even gotten to my florida properties yet, and she had to put me on hold.

Back from talking to her again, and hopefully I am getting through to her about some of the issue with fixed weeks converted, and how they are calculating MFs.  At all of my fixed week converted resorts we get some revenue credit back against our MFs in the second to last or last line of the budgets.  Well Wyndham is just pulling out the numbers and plugging in certain numbers and ignoring the final calculation total.  There are ignoring the credits line completely.  They are also including property tax twice on non-florida properties.  

I had to ask them to get a copy of the budget so that they can see what I am talking about.  I am alas on hold again.

I think in the end we are getting shrewed this year with a double hit of both 2011 taxes and 2012 taxes, BUT ALSO for fixed week owners the added insult of both 2011 end of year adjustments (estimated and paid in 2010 and now known based on 2011 budgets) and 2012 end of year adjustments (estimated and paid in 2011 and still unknown as 2012 budgets are not created yet).

So fixed week owners are paying for 2 extra property taxes and 2 extra end of year adjustments, some of which are know and some of which are estimated.

Least they can do is account for those credits, and spare us a little.  At least fixed week owners might actually get a reduction in MFs next year, expecially with all the double counting this year.


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## Sandy VDH (Jan 9, 2011)

Along with the even/odd overpayments on MFs, has aznyone got a response back from finance.  Of course my 48 hour promised response did not happen.  It is now up to 96 hours and still no response.  I guess I will bug them again tomorrow.


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## Sandy VDH (Feb 8, 2011)

*2012 = (2011 - 2010) + 2011 + (2.5% times 2011)*



massvacationer said:


> I think Brian may have figured this out.   I played around with this for my converted fixed week.
> 
> To create a 2012 forceasted maintenance fee for my converted fixed week (which is what I would pay during 2011), I took the difference between my 2011 (per my resort) and 2010 maintenance fees and add it to my 2011 maintenance fees (that my resort POA provided).  PLUS add 2.5% (I assume this is a forecasted increase based on inflation) of the total 2011 resort maintenance fee, I arrive exactly at the total number that Wyndham says they want to charge during 2011 (AKA the 2012 maint fees).
> 
> ...



My 48 hour promised response has come a MONTH later.

I do concur that this is the basic adjustment to the calculation.  

However I have discovered another gotcha for FL fixed week converted properties.  Apparently the calculation is:

2012 = (2011 - 2010) + 2011 + (2.5% times 2011)  + 102.5% 2011 Taxes

So not only are you paying the difference between 2010 collected and 2011 bill, but you are paying 2 property taxes, the one listed on the line item breakout, but then another one WITH the 2.5% adjustment rolled into the MF line.)

I sure as heck expect a DECREASE for next years fees, given that I double dipping this year for BOTH year end true ups, and for property taxes.  I would expect a decrease of about $100 MF on my waterfall unit, and about $85 MF on my Oceanview unit, both a Sea Gardens.  Great just when I hear that WF units might have SAs.  Great.


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## jjmanthei05 (Feb 9, 2011)

Sandy,

Have you seen a tax bill for last year come separate? I haven't seen one for my Star island week, so I wonder if they are rolling the separate amount into the monthly fee instead of paying lump sum at the end of 2010. Is that maybe where the doubling is coming from?

Jason


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## Sandy VDH (Feb 9, 2011)

jjmanthei05 said:


> Sandy,
> 
> Have you seen a tax bill for last year come separate? I haven't seen one for my Star island week, so I wonder if they are rolling the separate amount into the monthly fee instead of paying lump sum at the end of 2010. Is that maybe where the doubling is coming from?
> 
> Jason



The plan is to NO longer send seperate bills EXCEPT for SAs.  So YES they are indeed rolling Taxes into the Monthly bills.

The Tax bill ususally shows up in the 1st Q of the year,so they are billing 2011 tax, which is the seperate line item on the Yr end billing report.  But for fixed week converted units they are wanting everything prepaid.  So in 2011 you prepay your 2012 fees.  So they are estimating 2012 tax as 2011 tax plus an additional 2.5% project increase.  They are then rolling all of that into the MFs.

So for Fixed Week converted units where Taxes are included in your MFS, you are paying a end of year adjustment for 2011 MF year, AND an estimated increase for 2012 MF year.

So for Fixed Week FLORIDA converted units (where taxes are NOT included in your MFs), you are paying a end of year adjustment for 2011 MF year, AND an estimated increase for 2012 MF year.  PLUS you are paying for actual 2011 taxes and an estimated 2012 taxes (with a estimated 2.5% increase). 

I actual expect a reduction in my MFs for my FL weeks next year.  Because the Tax is actually being paid twice, and I am paying 2 year end adjustments in THIS YEARs assessment.


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