# College woes



## puppymommo (Dec 19, 2011)

Tried to talk to DD (17 next week) about her choice of college (state university, rooming with a best friend) for next year.  Earlier in the year she had planned to also apply to Northwestern and Washington University in St. Louis.  I was interested in her process of choosing, concerned that it was mostly financially related.  Her response to my question: "I'm the one going to college, not you!"  Door slam.

We did talk a little more calmly later on.  It appears that some (perhaps many) of her friends are second guessing her college choice.  She has the grades and ACT score to be competitive at a school like Northwestern.

I'm disappointed that she is not even applying to Northwestern to see if she gets in and see what kind of financial aid package she would get.  But I respect her decision.  As she says, she is the one who has to live with it.

I sincerely believe she will have a good experience at the state university. I went to a University of California school and had a wonderful experience. They (state university) have an honors college and she will be able to take many classes at an honors level. Plus they have a strong study abroad program.  But it will be a very different experience than she would have at Northwestern.

I'm very proud of her.  She has worked extremely hard in high school and is graduating in the top 3% of her class of over 500 students.  

Sometimes I just wish she was more open to hearing my point of view!


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## pjrose (Dec 19, 2011)

puppymommo said:


> *Tried to talk to DD (17 next week) . . . Door slam.*
> 
> I'm very proud of her.  She has worked extremely hard in high school and is graduating in the top 3% of her class of over 500 students.
> 
> *Sometimes I just wish she was more open to hearing my point of view!*



Almost anyone who has parented - or tried to parent - a teen girl is with you - I know I am!   Gotta wonder why they were invented and how the species has survived.

{HUGS} {HUGS} {HUGS} {HUGS} {HUGS} {HUGS}


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 19, 2011)

Peer pressure is a parent's nightmare when trying to rationally discuss important, lifelong issues with a teenager. Have you talked with the parents of her peer group? Is she a senior or a junior?

My sister started talking to her HS junior's friends' parents in elementary school (like in first grade). As she has a boy 2 years older, she is pusher in that group. 

It is a terribly confusing time for a teen ... clinging to the safe school and her lifelong buddy of "6 minutes" always seems better than walking into the dark and unknown. 

And remember, she will not be the only college student who transfers after a semester or two.


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## Pens_Fan (Dec 19, 2011)

Just think of the money that she will be saving you/herself.


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## Zac495 (Dec 19, 2011)

We're doing the college tours now - started summer of my son's junior year. He's a junior now. He fell in love with a couple places. Have you visited? This is so important!

Are you helping to finance college? If so - you have the right to say, "In the end it's your choice, but during the process of deciding, we as parents have a say in what your choices will be - we ARE visiting X and Y." If certain colleges have the same application as others - easy enough. Some may require tough essays and if she's resistant, you're stuck. But at least VISIT!!!

Good luck! Keep us posted.


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## MommaBear (Dec 19, 2011)

Oh, I feel your pain. The hardest thing we can do as parents is to let our children make decisions on their own, knowing that those may not be the best decisions for them. However, it is the only way they learn. My eldest daughter was going to go as far away as she could to get away from  dumb old us and boring Maine. Applied from NY to Texas (cost us a bunch in applications) panicked about going away and ended up at the state university. I loved it when she turned 18, I suddenly got much smarter and she was able to say with a twinkle in her eye "What a coincidence- you were right again" Even if your daughter acts like she doesn't hear you or doesn't want to hear you, she is processing the information you are giving her. Pushing the issue only makes teenage daughters dig in their heels (especially with their mothers) but giving them the info they need and letting them stew about it often has them saying later "I have decided to do ____ " as if it was their own idea. Whatever decision your daughter makes will be the right decision for her at the time and she can always transfer later if she wants something more. Sounds like she has done extremely well up to now!


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## Talent312 (Dec 19, 2011)

When I choose a college, my principal criteria was distance.
I wanted to be far enuff from home that contact would be minimal,
and yet still be within a one-day's drive for major holidays.

A neighbor friend of the family, noting my obstinency,
would refer to me as, "- - -, you miserable child."
Yet, somehow I turned out normal, more or less.


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## heathpack (Dec 19, 2011)

I would be pretty concerned that she is either: 1. Choosing the comfortable option (staying relatively close to home & everything she knows, living with friend) -OR- 2. Trying to fulfill a promise she made to go to school with and live with the friend.  Maybe both.

If she has suddenly taken an irrational fear of leaving home, I think you should push a little more.  It's your judgement on that- if she's not mature enough or capable enough to go away, let her decision ride.  But if she's perfectly capable of going and is having a teenage girl freak out, I would try to save her from herself.  Encourage her to at least _apply_.  She doesn't have to go if she doesn't want to, but the application won't hurt anything.  Cajole, bribe, demand, whatever makes sense for her.  Maybe convince her just going through the application process will be helpful- like if she decides to go to grad school, she will have had this application process as practice.

She will likely lose credits if she transfers, not the end of the world but not as easy as everyone thinks.  The more options she has now, the better.  

H


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 19, 2011)

I vote for bribing ...


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## ronparise (Dec 19, 2011)

Remember that part of any financial aid will no doubt be some student loans...Your daughter will have to live with these for a long time..I think the kid is thinking right

Sure the Ivy league  would be nice, but i suspect a lot of that is for mom and dad

You need to have serious conversation about this,  (no door slamming) but you need to listen to her, as much as she needs to listen to you.  It really is her life

My daughter went to a California State College and it served her well...Nothing wrong with San Jose State (in the Silicon valley) on a resume


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## suesam (Dec 19, 2011)

Wow do I feel for you! My boys were very uncomfortable and nervous about discussing college choices and basically refused as well. What we did was stood our ground and made them do their research. Yes, it was their decision but they had to make a decision well informed. We did our visits and I bought them books comparing colleges etc. We visited several schools, often with them not being the most delightful of travel partners. I believe that was all due to nerves. They chose completely different types of colleges....University of Notre Dame and Iowa State University. Yes...one is going to have debt and one is going to be debt free. However....they both picked the college PERFECT for them. We were very very lucky in that....but I firmly believe the amount of knowledge they had prior to the decision was essential. They both not only visited many colleges but they also went to week long camps at various colleges during the summers leading up to college so they could get a taste of what the college was like. 

Stand your ground! She will thank you later. Sounds like the best friend influence is probably a factor........ewwwww.

Sue


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## elaine (Dec 19, 2011)

bottom line--a (non-premier rated) state school can hinder her ability to obtain a top job. BUT, a student like that is likely to pursue more than a 4 year degree. If she does well at the state school and well on LSAT, GMAT, MCAT, etc., she can get into most any grad, med, law school. And at 21, she is likely to value the "name" of a school at that point. 
A resume that has State U and then Northwestern Law School or State U and Georgetown Med School will get the same job opportunities as one with an ivy league in undergrad.
College has a lot of challenges---if she does not have "ownership" of her decision and school, she might not have the same attitude overcoming those challenges.


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## lprstn (Dec 19, 2011)

Your kid is lucky to have choices. My kids don't have many. I tell them the budget, we look at the schools and it's a joint decision. College is a priveledge and not a right. Thankfully, my son is very interested in my help and guidance. I also had him interview students in his program of study as well as professionals with the hope that he can hear from someone besides myself what the opportunities are that are available to him. So far so good. Now for my other high schooler, she wants to go to a very expensive private college - I told her it's not in our budget and I prefer for her to graduate without debt. So I told her that she could take college classes while in high school and can get her preliminary courses out of the way. The counselor at the college she wants to go to suggested that as an option. 

I graduated from college with student loan debt and I just want my kids to be a bit more frugal and graduate debt free. As far as some majors go, it doesn't matter where the student get their degree just that they have one.


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## Elan (Dec 19, 2011)

ronparise said:


> Remember that part of any financial aid will no doubt be some student loans...Your daughter will have to live with these for a long time..I think the kid is thinking right
> 
> Sure the Ivy league  would be nice, but i suspect a lot of that is for mom and dad
> 
> ...



  Agree completely.

  I'm always amazed at how much emphasis parents put on college choice.  A motivated student will do fantastic at State U. and an unmotivated student will do poorly at Ivy U.  It's not about the institution, it's about the student's desire to succeed.  

  I got my degree from a state university whose electrical engineering program had only recently gained accreditation.  Hasn't seemed to hurt me any.  I work with grads from Stanford, Ga Tech, MIT, RPI, etc.  We're peers.  They have nothing on me, or me on them.  None of us would even know or care where the others went to school if it didn't come up in non-work related conversations (usually about college football or basketball).  Our boss?  A Chico State grad.

  Be happy that your kids want to go to college.  Support their choices.


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## LisaH (Dec 19, 2011)

Have you talked to her guidance counselor? Sometimes I believe kids will listen to anyone but the parents. They do change eventually though.


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## davhu1 (Dec 19, 2011)

We took our kids for college visits before even discussing where to apply.  We combined them with vacation in the spring of their junior year and summer; and day trip for nearby schools.  We must have visited at least some 20 colleges; different sizes (large univ, medium size, small liberal arts), locations (city vs suburb); reach/match/safety.  Some of the schools visited was based on when they think they like to go and other are just random for comparison.

We have a very good state colleges.  Our only criteria was that they need to justify the cost differential.  

Selective and location of the college are very important, specially with current economy and limited travel budget.  Some school are not being recruited.  Graduate school and professional schools knows the caliber of the schools from certain colleges.  Top students with good MCAT may be be placed in a medical school (Colleague's kid graduated top of her class with good MACT from low tier school rejected from ~15 medical school and only 1 interview.)  

puppymommo: Your D is a top student and should be able to make intelligent decision.  Rather than ask her to apply to a certain college.  Discuss why she is applying to certain school and not others.  Choosing a school based on where friends apply are never a good decision.  That friend may change her mind and not attend or she may attend, not do well and transfer.  Give her all the pros and cons, then let her make the decision; but set up your criteria early.  It may be her decision, but it your dime.  

Good luck with college.


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## emilyarnette (Dec 19, 2011)

When I was going through school, I too was in the same position your daughter was in.  However, all of my friends were going to Ivy League and schools where I knew were better than the state college.  However, in all reality, my friends that went away to ivy league and expensive out-of-state schools returned after a few semesters for various reasons (homesick, trouble making friends, etc.)...whereas I finished my degree in four years and graduated with honors.  So this may be a blessing in disguise!


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## e.bram (Dec 19, 2011)

Ivy League(also MIT, Caltech, Stanford) is good for one's self esteem , if nothing else.


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## emilyarnette (Dec 19, 2011)

e.bram said:


> Ivy League(also MIT, Caltech, Stanford) is good for one's self esteem , if nothing else.



Very true.  I received just as good of an education at my state college, and feel as though I am equally as successful as I would have been at an Ivy League.  In today's job market, an Ivy League may look good a on a resume, but a resume filled with relative experience looks much better.


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## Tia (Dec 19, 2011)

Friends of ours had their hs dtr getting remarks from her friends about her college choice because it was in a very small town with little party life. It's hard being 17-18 yo and being able to see what really matters.


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## jme (Dec 19, 2011)

I am a professional and work for myself. We have two children, girl and boy. Both went to different colleges for different reasons.  One to the state university, where she was near top of her class, adored the big university life and has made life-long friends. It's been awesome. She's now a senior, graduating in May. After high school the decision was ALL HERS.  I knew she was mature enough to handle it. She was just accepted to *Dental School* last week, one of the first students accepted. Her life is set. 

The other was wanting a smaller school, so he went to a private university. He fell in love with it after visiting. It, too, was his choice. He got a business degree, continued and got his *MBA*, and now is in his first year of *Law School*. His life is set too. 

Kids are different, and I strongly feel that the college they attend should be THEIR choice. (Mine was.) If anyone else's, they will forever hold that against "someone". It's like trying to tell them who to marry. They have to accept whatever consequences come.  But a college choice isn't THAT BIG of a dilemma, really. I'm sure she will have similar choices of careers regardless of where she goes. State universities have lots of programs and endless major options. If she feels strongly about that, let her choose. If you cannot afford her choice, that's another problem, and it too can be dealt with. 

In the end, she must be happy from the start. If not, she never will be happy, and it will affect her performance, and i sincerely believe that. 

Best advice now is VISIT them all!  All. All.  Take a good day for each. Schedule interviews with people there, also do an official tour, and then visit students too. She might surprise you and end up with a totally different viewpoint. But remember, it should be her choice. DO NOT say much at all during the process. Trust me, she has a mind.  Sometimes she'll do the opposite of what you say, "just because". So what, that's normal.  Good luck, not to you, but to her....it's a daunting decision.


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## thinze3 (Dec 19, 2011)

My oldest DD went to a private university and received no scholarship.  The only thing offered were loans. OUCH!

My second DD is now a senior at a very good state school.  I actually smile when I have to pay that tuition because of what I spent on the private tuition.

We found no difference in the quality of the education and the state school has been a much better experience with less peer pressure than the private school.  The private school had way to much emphasis on status and looks - body build, clothing, cars and sorority ranking, etc... 

The private school also set my retirement back a few years.  

We are not giving our 3rd DD a choice.  She will attend a state school in two years.

but...

If your child does not receive major scholarship money and you don't have a problem with $50-60K a year and/or major college debt, maybe private school is the way to go.  In that case, do what Ellen suggests and do a thorough college visit - maybe even one that you stay on campus over night.  That's what we did, and my DD was convinced.


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## Elan (Dec 19, 2011)

e.bram said:


> Ivy League(also MIT, Caltech, Stanford) is good for one's self esteem , if nothing else.



  Those that derive self-esteem from their college choice have bigger fish to fry.


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## klpca (Dec 19, 2011)

There's nothing wrong with state universities. That's where all three of our daughters went because that's what we could afford. The oldest two were accepted into fully funded master's programs, and both found them via the contacts that they made in undergraduate school. Our third daughter is a junior in school so no word on grad school funding yet. 

Btw, I went to a private university and loved it, but we just couldn't afford the $45k per year  We didn't qualify for any financial aid and would have had to take out loans. Some kids these days graduate with loans the size of a mortgage. I can't imagine saddling someone with an obligation like tat.


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## Pens_Fan (Dec 19, 2011)

When I went to college, my parents told me that they would pay for the cost of a public school and that it was my choice as to where I would go.

I chose to go to a private university, and was responsible for the rest of the cost.  I did have scholarships, but I also took student loans.  Thankfully, they have been paid off for quite some time.

I will offer my son the same deal when it is his turn to go to college.


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## AKE (Dec 19, 2011)

Little does she realize that her `friends` who are influencing her in the choice of a collegewill disappear over the next four years, probably rarely to be seen or heard from again.  If you are not contributing financially to her going to college then she will have to learn and live by her mistakes; if you are assisting then withdraw the assistance and let her make the mistakes on her own.  She will learn soon enough (they all do).


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## puppymommo (Dec 19, 2011)

I guess what bugs me is she is not even applying to any other schools.  I think if she got accepted into Northwestern she would get a good financial aid package that might even turn out better than what the state school can offer.  I would just like to see what they have to offer.

I do think a state university can offer a good, even excellent education.  DD does plan to go to graduate school (psychology).  She is a senior.  We did do the college visit thing last year, so she has visited the school where  she has been accepted. One of the things that sold her is that they have a good honors college to challenge the top students.

The school she is planning to attend is large, 17 thousand undergrads. The honors college is the top 9%.  

The other advantage of the state school over Northwestern is they will give credit for more of her AP/IB (International Baccalaurate) classes. She will get at least a full semester's worth of credit.  This is some of the flack she is getting from friends: why did you take the IB (extremely rigorous hs curriculum) just to go to a state university?

Another reason she gave for wanting to go to the state university is that her high school experience has been so intense she would like to go somewhere that is challening but isn't such a pressure cooker environment.

To me what it all boils down to is whatever school she attends, her college experience will be what she makes of it.  And knowing her, I think she will make the most of wherever she goes.


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## klpca (Dec 19, 2011)

puppymommo said:


> I guess what bugs me is she is not even applying to any other schools.  I think if she got accepted into Northwestern she would get a good financial aid package that might even turn out better than what the state school can offer.  I would just like to see what they have to offer.
> 
> I do think a state university can offer a good, even excellent education.  DD does plan to go to graduate school (psychology).  She is a senior.  We did do the college visit thing last year, so she has visited the school where  she has been accepted. One of the things that sold her is that they have a good honors college to challenge the top students.
> 
> ...



Actually, I think your daughter sounds like a pretty smart cookie.

Getting a semester of credit for her IB classes is golden and probably saves $8-10k between tuition and living expenses. And since she is planning on grad school, the money saved by attending a state university instead of a private university will go a long way towards grad school tuition. Of course if Northwestern (after financial aid) would cost less than a state school, it would clearly be a viable option that she should consider.

My middle kid was the one that had a lot of opportunities due to her academic and athletic success. I strongly encouraged her to apply to many schools, she was accepted by all but one, and still wound up at school about 10 miles from home. In retrospect, all I did was waste about $500 in application fees, and of course the time that she spent writing essays and gathering letters of recommendation.


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 19, 2011)

My oldest nephew had 44 college credits when he started college this Fall. AP tests, AP courses and cooperative courses between his HS and the local college.

His 2 roommates had 8AM classes every morning. His first class of the day was noon - after all, he is NOT a Freshman, but a sophmore.  PS. These boys all live in the Scholars Dorm at College Park, U of Maryland.


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## puppymommo (Dec 19, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> PS. These boys all live in the Scholars Dorm at College Park, U of Maryland.



I had to smile at this.  DD is eligible to live in the Scholars Dorm but she doesn't want to!  She said, "I'll be taking classes with those people, I don't have to live with them."  She may change her mind after a semester on a "regular" dorm.   

PS: She is a pretty smart cookie!


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## DebBrown (Dec 19, 2011)

What state school?  Are you in Illinois?  University of Illinois is a terrific school and I think its a good choice for anyone except those who do better at a small college environment.

I have a little experience with sending four kids to college.  My oldest spent two years at Washington University in St. Louis before dropping out.  He still had to pay the student loans back. Right now he is working as a bartender but will quit at the end of the year to focus on finishing his book.  Hope he is successful!

My other three kids went to state schools and actual graduated (the youngest this year).  None of them are disappointed with their education or experience.

My nephew is at Northwestern right now.  He did get a financial aid package but the family is struggling.  Instead of becoming a rocket scientist, he is majoring in German.  I'm not sure if a Northwestern degree in German is worth the price tag.

Try not to stress too much.  Definitely encourage your daughter to apply to a few schools.  Sometimes there are unexpected disappointments and sometimes kids change their minds.  It's good to have options.

Deb


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 19, 2011)

Dorm space at U of Maryland - College Park is very limited. Residents who live in the Scholar's dorm are promised 2 years in those dorms. If he had higher test scores and better grades, the Presidential Scholars get 4 years of their dorm space.

But he dislikes the food, the long walk to the cafeteria and sharing a room with 2 others - he has lost a lot of weight and goes home most weekends to sleep. But his dorm is real close to the football stadium.  

Sounds like a normal first year of college. :hysterical:


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## AKE (Dec 19, 2011)

I think that too much is made as to what school one attends.  As long as she graduates then there will be many opportunities, regardless of whether she attends a no-name school or Ivy League.  Too many parents think that the name of the school will be the key to the future.  A name-brand school may open doors but it will also close as many as a good portion of employers don't want the whiz-kid who had the money (or scholarships) to attend a top-tier school as these kids are not necessarily the best-rounded from a life experience perspective.  As well, once you have a job then it is your performance on the job that will determine your future.  You may have a degree from an Ivy League school but this is no guarantee to success anymore than a degree from a regular, run-of-the-mill school.


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## Mosca (Dec 19, 2011)

the value in the "higher" schools is in the connections made. They connect with people with money and influence.


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## pjrose (Dec 19, 2011)

Mosca said:


> the value in the "higher" schools is in the connections made. They connect with people with money and influence.



And especially for graduate work, I think it makes a difference.


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## wauhob3 (Dec 19, 2011)

Pens_Fan said:


> Just think of the money that she will be saving you/herself.



Often private schools offer more financial aid. My daughter had a hard time choosing in between a good private school and the large state school rated well and in the end even though the full price tuition is double at the private it was less expensive for her to go to the private school due to the larger scholarship and financial award given to her. She had her choice in between either and chose the private school. She chose the private as a better fit for her after agonizing for a while since many of her friends were going to a state school. She can apply for many now and then visit her top choices within affordable means.    

She needs to go visit a lot of campuses. She should get a fair amount of scholarships with her stats and advise her not to limit her opportunities and give herself choices before all the scholarships are given away. She can always decline. My daughter was accepted to 14 schools and in the end three were within two thousand of each other, all good schools very different each other. It then took her a couple of months to finally decide.


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## csalter2 (Dec 20, 2011)

*Don't Worry!*

Ivy or state is not going to make a difference. It's what you learn in either institution. I have seen kids go to state universities here in California and private schools and both can have great success. There is nothing wrong here in California if kids go to our state schools like UCLA, UC Berkeley/Cal, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo or several of the other schools. 

I find that mostly parents want to have bragging rights so they can say, "My child whose at Harvard blah, blah, blah, blah. This is certainly not in the best interest of the kid. I work in education. Believe me, I see this very often.


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## pianodinosaur (Dec 20, 2011)

I went to Northwestern as an undergraduate.  I went to Creighton University for Medical School and did my residency at The University of Chicago.

The being said, there is more than one person can possibly learn at any major university. The educational opportunities at any of the Texas state universities or colleges are amazing.  My niece graduated from The University of Chicago and is now at The University of Virginia working on her Ph.D.

The main issue, the way I see it, is if your daughter is going to think for herself or listen to her friends.  I have had nothing to do with the people with whom I attended high school in over 40 years. This is a very difficult concept for a 17 year old to grasp.  However, I have seen numerous young people listen to their screwball friends and never complete college. This is also a very difficult concept for a 17 year old to grasp. Fortunately, your daughter has a mother with some wisdom. 

When I was 15 years old my father told me that the most mental exercise I got was jumping to conclusions.  He was quite correct.  I hope that I have outgrown that.


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## Mel (Dec 20, 2011)

You really need to find out why she doesn't want to apply to any other schools.  If it is the money, she needs to understand that she may in fact be better off at one of the private schools.  I don't have a link, but I recently read an article listing the top 10 schools in terms of meeting aid.  Princeton was the top school, with the average graduate leaving with an average of less than $10,000 of debt.  

If it's because of pressure from her peers, you may need to turn her own words back to her.  She is the one going to college - not her friends (they are, but her experience will not be theirs).  At a big state school, she is less likely to have any classes with them, and they are likely to grow apart.  My DD is a junior, as we have been visiting the local college open houses, to get a feel for different types of schools (though she already has her own short list).  She has already decided she will apply to one of the state schools as a safety school, but will only attend if she gets into the honors program, and can live in the honors dorm.  Yes, she will already be spending her days with those same students, but she knows a regular dorm could be a distraction to her.  

I would encourage her to apply to at least one of the "reach" schools, and hold off on the final decision.  She has her acceptance at the state school, and that option will remain open, unless she participated in an early decision program.  It's better to keep her options open, and let her know that the final decision is hers - just make sure it is a truly informed decision.  The only way I would allow my DD to apply to just one school is if she fell in love with that school and was accepted early.

I found the article, or one like it: 10 top colleges with lowest graduating debt
http://portal.kiplinger.com/slideshow/lowest-debt-private-colleges/7.html#top


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## Clemson Fan (Dec 20, 2011)

When I applied to college, my parents could only afford a state school.  So, I had the choice of going to a state school or a more expensive private school only if I received significant scholarship money or joined ROTC.  I didn't care because I wanted to go to a state school (Clemson) anyway and I actually got a scholarship that paid for most of it.

When I went to medical school (University of Chicago), I had the choice of joining the military and having them pay for it or being up to my eyeballs in student loans.  I chose the Army and didn't owe any money, but instead paid back my debt with 8 years of active service.

I don't think my choice of going to a state school impacted my chances of getting into medical school at all.  In fact, I think it probably helped me.  There are a lot of great state schools.


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## Clemson Fan (Dec 20, 2011)

Mel said:


> You really need to find out why she doesn't want to apply to any other schools. If it is the money, she needs to understand that she may in fact be better off at one of the private schools. I don't have a link, but I recently read an article listing the top 10 schools in terms of meeting aid. Princeton was the top school, with the average graduate leaving with an average of less than $10,000 of debt.
> 
> If it's because of pressure from her peers, you may need to turn her own words back to her. She is the one going to college - not her friends (they are, but her experience will not be theirs). At a big state school, she is less likely to have any classes with them, and they are likely to grow apart. My DD is a junior, as we have been visiting the local college open houses, to get a feel for different types of schools (though she already has her own short list). She has already decided she will apply to one of the state schools as a safety school, but will only attend if she gets into the honors program, and can live in the honors dorm. Yes, she will already be spending her days with those same students, but she knows a regular dorm could be a distraction to her.
> 
> ...


 
In the article you quote only about 30% of the students borrow, yet the average debt at graduation is only around 10k for a 50k a year school.  That just tells me that a lot of the kids who go to those schools have parents that can afford to pay for it.  

So, if money is a concern, this article wouldn't alleviate those concerns and if it were me it would just heighten them.


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## tompalm (Dec 20, 2011)

LisaH said:


> Have you talked to her guidance counselor? Sometimes I believe kids will listen to anyone but the parents. They do change eventually though.



100 percent correct on this.  I think some will listen to a stranger on the street before their parents.  

Don't push your kids too hard.  Someone we know, sent their son to Washington State and he didn't want to go.  He kept calling and said that he wanted to come home, but they said no.  About the end of the fist semester, the parents got a phone call that their son jumped off a tall building.  He lived, but spent the next three months in the hospital.  He got to come home after that.


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## 3kids4me (Dec 20, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> Dorm space at U of Maryland - College Park is very limited. Residents who live in the Scholar's dorm are promised 2 years in those dorms. If he had higher test scores and better grades, the Presidential Scholars get 4 years of their dorm space.
> 
> But he dislikes the food, the long walk to the cafeteria and sharing a room with 2 others - he has lost a lot of weight and goes home most weekends to sleep. But his dorm is real close to the football stadium.
> 
> Sounds like a normal first year of college. :hysterical:




Actually, current UMD students are guaranteed housing through junior year.  Next year, some seniors will also get housing.  Dorm space used to be much tighter there but they recently built a new, beautiful high rise dorm in North Campus which made more space.  

BTW, a lot of people don't actually want to live in the Scholars' dorms because they are in the Cambridge Community, which is far from many of the buildings on campus (although as you say, close to the stadium!).

P.S.  I was in an honors program at a state school and my husband went to Northwestern.  We both ended up in the same (very good) MBA program.


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## squeeze (Dec 21, 2011)

pjrose said:


> Almost anyone who has parented - or tried to parent - a teen girl is with you - I know I am!   Gotta wonder why they were invented and how the species has survived.
> 
> {HUGS} {HUGS} {HUGS} {HUGS} {HUGS} {HUGS}



good one PJ. :hysterical: 
Love IT!.

I'm with ya. Wow! what its like to be an 18 year old these days. :ignore:


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## wauhob3 (Dec 21, 2011)

Clemson Fan said:


> In the article you quote only about 30% of the students borrow, yet the average debt at graduation is only around 10k for a 50k a year school.  That just tells me that a lot of the kids who go to those schools have parents that can afford to pay for it.
> 
> So, if money is a concern, this article wouldn't alleviate those concerns and if it were me it would just heighten them.



Not necessarily if they meet 100% of need that would result in a much lower need to take out large students loans. As I stated we have personal experience in this even though my daughter's college cost twice as much as Purdue it was less expensive then Purdue after scholarships and grants were factored in for both schools. It depends on test scores and high school records with SAT or ACT scores being the primary factor we found. My daughter was offered more scholarships then her friends that had higher GPA's due to having higher test scores I believe. The thing is unless she applies she will not know. My daughter applied to 14 schools and at her reach school she was rejected. I'm glad she applied because I knew it was a school that is not known for giving significant financial aid but we took away the question of what if and a little rejection never hurts anyone. The 13 other schools accepted her and they all offered different amounts. Some she applied to as part of College Go week for free and didn't know much about. Others she thought she'd like and after visiting didn't "feel it". 

OP as a mother I would be concerned if you daughter is limiting herself due to social reasons that doesn't bode well for academics in college. As far as rooming one of the common threads in campus visits is high school friends who room together often don't end up being friends at the end. Probably because boundaries get crossed due to familarity. My daughter took Indiana University off her list early on because she believed from talking to others it develops into mini high school communities. She had a good high school experience but wanted new adventures. Its turned out well for her so far. However it was her choice in the end at least in between the three schools she liked that offered her packages making net cost to be a $2000 fluctuation. She chose the onFe in the middle. Try to sell your daughter on giving herself choices instead of locking herself out by waiting to long to apply to get the maximum scholarships that come with acceptance letters. Needs based comes after filing FAFSA.


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## Mel (Dec 21, 2011)

Clemson Fan said:


> In the article you quote only about 30% of the students borrow, yet the average debt at graduation is only around 10k for a 50k a year school.  That just tells me that a lot of the kids who go to those schools have parents that can afford to pay for it.
> 
> So, if money is a concern, this article wouldn't alleviate those concerns and if it were me it would just heighten them.



No, 30% borrowing doesn't mean that 70% could fully afford the school.  Some schools like Princeton don't include loans as part of the aid  package.  As a result, those 30% who borrow are doing so to cover the "family contribution" as determined by their FAFSA, or for other expenses (like that new computer).  They would still need to come up with that same money at the state school, unless they get merit based aid, and their aid package isn't reduced due to the merit aid.  In fact, most state schools include loans as part of their aid package, so would end up costing more.

Again, the best option is to keep doors open, and compare the aid offered by each school.  If she really wants to go to the state school, and it isn't about the money, that's great.  But you can't assume that a private college is going to be more expensive.


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## bogey21 (Dec 21, 2011)

AKE said:


> I think that too much is made as to what school one attends.



I tend to agree with this.  Because of transfers while working and tours in both the Army and Air Force I ended up attending 8 colleges before graduating.  Some of the schools were top tier and some nowhere near top tier.  I found both good and bad professors in all of the schools I attended.  I feel that where you graduate doesn't matter as much as having a degree in the field in which you intend to work.

George


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## Rob&Carol Q (Dec 21, 2011)

My deal with my kids is that I have the room and board...you figure out tuition.  That cures a lot of the out of state/private issues.  Nothing like a good cold dose of reality to cure some of the "I want to go to the University of Hawaii" cleverness my daughter had at one time.  She's now graduated from Ohio State, married, and employed.

Three kids into that college issue, three different solutions...go figure.  One more to go...

Personally, without the ROTC scholarship that I earned an eon ago, I'm not all that certain I would have attended college and met my eventual Bride.  Funny how those things work out...the oddest decision will have the most lasting impact on your life.


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## bogey21 (Dec 21, 2011)

I had a similar situation when my Daughter decided to go to grad school.  She decided on Tufts University, high cost, high cost of living and  lots of travel expenses to and from Texas.  I figure it would cost me well over $150,000 for the full two years.  So I cut a deal with my Daughter.  I agreed to put $50,000 into her Education Bank Account.  She would pick the school and would cover everything over the $50,000. If she could work it out where any money was left after she graduated, it was hers to keep.  Guess what.  She got herself a full ride to the University of Missouri.  The $50,000 more than covered living and travel expenses.  She ended up with her grad degree, money in the bank, and I saved myself mucho bucks!

George


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## e.bram (Dec 21, 2011)

Bogey21:
Suppose it was Harvard or MIT, would you feel the same way?


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## pjrose (Dec 21, 2011)

Rob&Carol Q said:


> . . .
> Personally, without the ROTC scholarship that I earned an eon ago,* I'm not all that certain I would have attended college and met my eventual Bride.  Funny how those things work out...the oddest decision will have the most lasting impact on your life.*



And if I hadn't wanted to skip swim practice so my hair wouldn't be wet for cheerleading tryouts, I wouldn't have talked to a particular college rep at my HS that day (the only legit excuse for skipping practice), and hence wouldn't have picked up the application and applied and then gone to the college where I met my DH second week of freshman year  

(And no, I didn't make cheerleading, even with my dry hair  .)


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## pjrose (Dec 21, 2011)

I've been to three types of colleges, and taught at them all as well: small private liberal arts, state university, and ivy league.  

Faculty at private liberal arts and ivy league probably have a lower course load than state, and class size will likely be smaller.  Hence faculty may spend more time with students (very likely at liberal arts) and/or research (very likely at ivy league).  

At a state school faculty likely have a higher course load and larger classes, so less time with students.  Similarly, students likely take more classes per semester.  

You can find wonderful and awful faculty in all three types.  But the faculty course load (usually 3 or 4 classes/semester, but could be lower if the particular prof has a reduction for committee work or research) and the class size are important to look at.  So is the "feel" of the faculty/student relationship - is it fairly common for faculty to involve students in their research?  To have students over to their house for an occasional pizza or taco night?  You'll find that at a small liberal arts college.  Or are a lot of the undergraduate courses taught by grad students?  You'll find that at ivy league and large state universities.  How many classes (NOT credits) do the students take per term?  Four is great - they can devote more time to those four (not that they necessarily will.....but for a top-notch student, this can make a difference).  

I wouldn't replace my small private liberal arts college undergrad AND teaching experience with anything.  Faculty-student relationships were great for me, DH, and DS who now goes to that type of school.  

As a grad student I started at a state university (not a huge one).  It was good, and the faculty and grad students generally worked well together.  then I went to an ivy league school to finish up my grad work.  It honestly was not as good a school for me or the undergrads as the other two.  Many faculty were too isolated with their research, and many courses were taught by grad students.  However, I have no doubt that that name on my fancy diploma, as opposed to the small state university, made a big difference in landing me several positions.


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## csalter2 (Dec 22, 2011)

*I agree...*



pjrose said:


> I've been to three types of colleges, and taught at them all as well: small private liberal arts, state university, and ivy league.
> 
> 
> Faculty at private liberal arts and ivy league probably have a lower course load than state, and class size will likely be smaller.  Hence faculty may spend more time with students (very likely at liberal arts) and/or research (very likely at ivy league).
> ...




PJROSE,
I went to a small private liberal arts college right in your backyard (Dickinson College) and found that to be a great experience for the reason you gave. The small class sizes and the student faculty relationships. I went there almost 30 years after I graduated and professors still remembered me. My wife was thoroughly impressed that they not only knew me but knew many specifics about me.  The education there has proved to be instrumental in my decision making and my ability to think utilizing the information/data available to me. I would not trade that experience for anything.


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## sheila (Dec 22, 2011)

A lot of my daughter's friends are second guessing her choice for going to a state school.  She tries to explain to them that she wants to graduate with no debt. (She has a college fund but if she goes to a private college she will have major debt) and then go to grad school.  I have talked to many college graduates and almost all of them who went to private colleges and have debt say if they had to do it all over again they wuold have gone to a state school.  This is a great articule on a state school and a private school

http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/cnn/


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## bogey21 (Dec 22, 2011)

e.bram said:


> Bogey21:
> Suppose it was Harvard or MIT, would you feel the same way?



I guess if my kid was a super intellect and had their head on straight, a school like Harvard or MIT would be a good choice.  In most other cases I don't think (within reason) where the degree comes from really matters.

George


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## Big Matt (Dec 22, 2011)

I was a top student in high school, went to a fairly prominent college (William and Mary) and went on to get an MBA.

In high school I learned how to take direction and work hard.  I got good grades.  I had no concept of college nor did I take my search very seriously.  I was a baseball player and selected my college based on that versus academics.  It was also in my home town so I knew the campus well.  

When I went to college I grew from a teenager into an adult.  This was the most important thing I got out of college.  I learned how to manage myself and take responsibility for managing my time and money.

I worked all the way through grad school and learned the value of education and how valuable it is to success in life.

The bottom line with education is that it is an evolution that only the student can own.  My parents never told me what to do, but steered me in the right directions so that I could make a thoughtful choice.  My son is a senior in high school now.  He's got his head all over the place.  I'm going to make sure that he picks a school where he has a good opportunity to be successful.  The good news is that his list includes those types of schools.


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## swift (Dec 22, 2011)

Also want to add a note about financial aide. Unless you are getting a full ride do not assume that the aide you are given in the Freshman year will be the same aide you will get the entire time. Many of my daughters friends had a tough time this year as tuition prices went up and the teaser offer to get them to attend the college was not as attractive.


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## wauhob3 (Dec 22, 2011)

You do have to be careful with scholarships and academic based grants that they are awarded all four years which is all my daughter was offered. Need based grants will change if your income changes. The particulars of the award should be there and the academic scholarships and grants usually have maintaining a certain GPA tied to them. If they fail to maintain the GPA tied to the award then they will lose it after the first year. I told my daughter she will be transferring to another college should that happen. The first semester she did well so I suspect that will continue.

As far as whether a name school matters or not in getting a good job largely depends  in what your major is. Some degrees it doesn't matter. If you want to go into business you will have a much better chance at getting an excellent position if you go to a name school that is known for business. It doesn't have to be Ivy League though. Notre Dame is the top business school in the USA. It also matters the contacts these schools provide. They generally have active alumni support that provides you contacts on top of the ones you make with peers in school. 

Faculty contact is also dramatically different as PJRose sited. My daughter already knows several professors well because classes are small enough to interact. They make themselves more available as well. Most have their terminal degrees. At her school no classes are taught by TA's. 

A good thing to do is to apply everywhere. Visit the schools, audit some classes and if possible do an overnight experience for those with the best offers.


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## Talent312 (Dec 22, 2011)

Big Matt said:


> When I went to college I grew from a teenager into an adult...



When I went to college, I had straight-A's my first term.
Then I discovered beer. College was much more fun after that.


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## Big Matt (Dec 23, 2011)

I discovered beer on my first day in college.  Our orientation aids took my freshman hall (all boys) out to the local pub and bought us pitchers.  I met a pretty hot girl that night and never looked back.  College was by far my favorite four year period in my life.



Talent312 said:


> When I went to college, I had straight-A's my first term.
> Then I discovered beer. College was much more fun after that.


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## MuranoJo (Dec 24, 2011)

Elan said:


> Agree completely.
> 
> I'm always amazed at how much emphasis parents put on college choice.  A motivated student will do fantastic at State U. and an unmotivated student will do poorly at Ivy U.  It's not about the institution, it's about the student's desire to succeed.
> 
> ...



Ditto.  I work with a diverse group of Ivy Leaguers and State U grads, MBAs and bachelors.  In a long career, I've not once heard anyone comparing notes in the hall about who went to what school. Once you're thrown into the pot, it's each man/woman for him/herself.  And I've seen State grads hold their own very well.

Real work experience  supplementing the degree can tip the scale in the applicant's favor.


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## wauhob3 (Dec 24, 2011)

muranojo said:


> Ditto.  I work with a diverse group of Ivy Leaguers and State U grads, MBAs and bachelors.  In a long career, I've not once heard anyone comparing notes in the hall about who went to what school. Once you're thrown into the pot, it's each man/woman for him/herself.  And I've seen State grads hold their own very well.
> 
> Real work experience  supplementing the degree can tip the scale in the applicant's favor.



I totally agree that after the first years of work is your work experience that is more important. Its just that in some fields depending on where you graduate from may mean a big difference in getting that first work experience.Some state schools would even be better in some fields. For example, a Purdue engineer may be more desireable then one from Harvard. Conversely a Harvard law degree would probably open doors a state school law degree. If you want to be a nurse it probably doesn't matter greatly where you go to school.


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## kewanee (Dec 26, 2011)

davhu1 said:


> We took our kids for college visits before even discussing where to apply.  We combined them with vacation in the spring of their junior year and summer; and day trip for nearby schools.  We must have visited at least some 20 colleges; different sizes (large univ, medium size, small liberal arts), locations (city vs suburb); reach/match/safety.  Some of the schools visited was based on when they think they like to go and other are just random for comparison.



Davhu1 or anyone else - can you elaborate on the college visits?  What do you look for?  Do you drive around the campus and then walk around?  or take organized tours?  Thank you.


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## geekette (Dec 27, 2011)

bogey21 said:


> I tend to agree with this.  Because of transfers while working and tours in both the Army and Air Force I ended up attending 8 colleges before graduating.  Some of the schools were top tier and some nowhere near top tier.  I found both good and bad professors in all of the schools I attended.  I feel that where you graduate doesn't matter as much as having a degree in the field in which you intend to work.
> 
> George



And I'd say that having a degree not match what you actually do for a living isn't that important either.

I never knew what I wanted to do, so got a good degree that could suit various purposes  - Indiana University Bloomington, school of business, specialized marketing/advertising.   [no, IU was not high school clique all over again, but, I didn't go seekign that, I was there for education, not social]

have not worked a day in marketing nor advertising.

In my recent job search, it was a point of amusement.  how does someone with a degree like that end up doing this for a living??  my experience was really what led them to call me, not the degree, nor even that I have a degree at all.   No one here gives a crap where my degree came from, nor what it's in.  They care that I can do the job and no alma matter credential can assure them of that, only I can.   Granted, I am not fresh out of school.  Fresh out of school, most any degree can open a door for you.  After that, it's up to the person.

A degree proves certain things but there is no guarantee of career success based on the school name printed.  I think it is far more important to be in an environment conducive to that student's sensibilities.

I went where I could afford, came out with credit and loan debt, paid it off, and moved on with life.


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## bogey21 (Dec 27, 2011)

For someone just starting out in the job market having a degree helps.  Some companies have a degree requirement.  Without one the newbie can't get an interview.  I agree that once someone has a track record of performance that having a degree is most often not a consideration.

George


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## esk444 (Dec 27, 2011)

wauhob3 said:


> You do have to be careful with scholarships and academic based grants that they are awarded all four years which is all my daughter was offered. Need based grants will change if your income changes. The particulars of the award should be there and the academic scholarships and grants usually have maintaining a certain GPA tied to them. If they fail to maintain the GPA tied to the award then they will lose it after the first year. I told my daughter she will be transferring to another college should that happen. The first semester she did well so I suspect that will continue.
> 
> As far as whether a name school matters or not in getting a good job largely depends  in what your major is. Some degrees it doesn't matter. If you want to go into business you will have a much better chance at getting an excellent position if you go to a name school that is known for business. It doesn't have to be Ivy League though. *Notre Dame is the top business school in the USA. * It also matters the contacts these schools provide. They generally have active alumni support that provides you contacts on top of the ones you make with peers in school.
> 
> ...



Off topic, but no one outside of ND alums or those from South Bend believes that.  I have a hard time believing most ND alums even believe that.


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## wauhob3 (Dec 27, 2011)

esk444 said:


> Off topic, but no one outside of ND alums or those from South Bend believes that.  I have a hard time believing most ND alums even believe that.



It is what some in the business community believes and that is what matters when it comes to getting a top business job. I realize these rankings can be subjective but Bloomberg is pretty reputable. Even if its not at the top of everyones list it is an excellent school bound to open more doors then many colleges.   

http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/rankings/


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## Zac495 (Dec 28, 2011)

kewanee said:


> Davhu1 or anyone else - can you elaborate on the college visits?  What do you look for?  Do you drive around the campus and then walk around?  or take organized tours?  Thank you.



This past summer, DS and I went to many schools. We made online reservations for tours. We also ate in the area.
My son still loves Pitt, but is beginning to think about Ivy Leagues based on his SAT scores. This is SO hard! Well, i guess one could have worse problems.


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## MuranoJo (Dec 29, 2011)

wauhob3 said:


> I totally agree that after the first years of work is your work experience that is more important. Its just that in some fields depending on where you graduate from may mean a big difference in getting that first work experience.Some state schools would even be better in some fields. For example, a Purdue engineer may be more desireable then one from Harvard. Conversely a Harvard law degree would probably open doors a state school law degree. If you want to be a nurse it probably doesn't matter greatly where you go to school.



Actually, what I was referring to was work experience before or while going to school (can positively influence a future employer vs. someone who has no work experience).


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## pjrose (Dec 29, 2011)

muranojo said:


> Actually, what I was referring to was work experience before or while going to school (can positively influence a future employer vs. someone who has no work experience).



And volunteer experience as well!


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