# Devaluation of my timeshare weeks  (MR pts)



## ndonovan (Mar 22, 2015)

Has anyone ever tried to take Marriott to task for the continuing devaluatioin of our points and, as a result, our weeks?

When I bought Grande Vista in 1998 I could cash in my week for 125,000 points.  At that time 200,000 points would get you a week anywhere in the world, airfare and a car.  I can still cash in my week for 125,000 points and I recently used 35,000 points for one night in Washington DC.  Not only are my 400,000 points I have in my account decreasing in value but cashing in my unit for 125,000 points is not such a good deal either.

Has anyone tried a class action suit against Marriott to have them either increase the number of points our weeks are worth or give us a little more bang for the buck for the points we already have.


----------



## tschwa2 (Mar 22, 2015)

There was a similar discussion about this time last year:
Very dissatisfied owner...


----------



## cubigbird (Mar 22, 2015)

That's why you always buy where you ultimately want to end up going.  Companies can change anything they want about the internal network, but they can't change your week.


----------



## dougp26364 (Mar 22, 2015)

Class action? On what grounds? It clearly states in the Marriott Rewards literature that they can change, or even discontinue, the program at any time. That's always been our reason we've rejected sales attempts to sell us a week so we could become Marriott Rewards "millionaires". HGVC does the same dog and poney show FWIW.


----------



## bogey21 (Mar 22, 2015)

cubigbird said:


> That's why you always buy where you ultimately want to end up going.  Companies can change anything they want about the internal network, but they can't change your week.



The best move I ever made in TimeSharing was to sell my 4 "Big Boy" Weeks for $85,000 and using less than 1/10 of the proceeds to buy 6 Fixed Weeks at carefully selected Independent HOA controlled Resorts.

What many don't understand is that many of  the Independents will swap Weeks for Owners with a simple phone call to the Resort at no cost.  I was able to do this numerous times thus making my Fixed Week into a quasi Floater.

George


----------



## alchook (Mar 22, 2015)

ndonovan said:


> Not only are my 400,000 points I have in my account decreasing in value but cashing in my unit for 125,000 points is not such a good deal either.



I'm not sure how much value the points in your account are losing. True, you can't get as many nights for them as you could in the past. But the value of those nights has increased with the higher prices hotels are charging.

With that in mind, it would seem to be fair for Marriott to increase the points given for your unit. Still, trading for rewards points has always been a poor return for a week.


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 22, 2015)

With the constant devaluations in frequent flier and hotel point programs. It makes little sense to sit on points or miles. Use them as soon as you have enough points to go somewhere. We are currently saving for a travel package and will have enough points this fall and will convert as soon as we do so. We have also been sitting on a number of airline miles and just used a big chunk of them for three trips this year. They only lose value sitting in an account.


----------



## billymach4 (Mar 22, 2015)

Mother ship Marriott has the following priorities

1) Earn a profit annually

2) Return value, and dividends to the Street and shareholders

3) Sell products and services by way of their sales machine. In doing so they employ a Marketing team, Sales Team. The Sales Team in particular are conniving liars, and some are very good at it. I will add one disclaimer(There are a select few good honest hard working people, but most are liars)

4) Produce a good product and service. 

We as Timeshare owners like and swallow at number 4. 

I think you can see where we fall in the pecking order.


----------



## JIMinNC (Mar 22, 2015)

Hotel room rates are also rising rapidly it seems to me - so in that sense our $$$ are being "devalued" as well. It takes more $$$ to reserve a hotel room than it did a year or two ago, just like it takes more Rewards points, and hence more DC Points if you convert them to Rewards. 

As an example, we were hoping to celebrate a special anniversary next weekend in Charleston, SC, but a month or two ago when we went looking for hotel rooms for a couple of nights in the Charleston Historic District, we couldn't find anything for less than about $350/night except for properties that were outside of the core walkable areas - many were over $500 for a basic hotel room. We checked other weekends just to see if the prices were high only that one weekend, and most other Fri/Sat nights were in that same general ballpark. A couple of years ago, we stayed at the Charleston Mills House for less than $200/night.

I often read complaints about how Points are being devalued - meaning it takes more points to reserve the same thing - but the reality is dollars are being devalued as well. The economy has been doing well for many people, and those people are traveling, airlines and hotels are booking more seats/rooms, and the law of supply and demand means that as demand increases faster than the supply of seats/rooms prices go up - whether that's dollars or points.


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 22, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> Hotel room rates are also rising rapidly it seems to me - so in that sense our $$$ are being "devalued" as well. It takes more $$$ to reserve a hotel room than it did a year or two ago, just like it takes more Rewards points, and hence more DC Points if you convert them to Rewards.
> 
> As an example, we were hoping to celebrate a special anniversary next weekend in Charleston, SC, but a month or two ago when we went looking for hotel rooms for a couple of nights in the Charleston Historic District, we couldn't find anything for less than about $350/night except for properties that were outside of the core walkable areas - many were over $500 for a basic hotel room. We checked other weekends just to see if the prices were high only that one weekend, and most other Fri/Sat nights were in that same general ballpark. A couple of years ago, we stayed at the Charleston Mills House for less than $200/night.
> 
> I often read complaints about how Points are being devalued - meaning it takes more points to reserve the same thing - but the reality is dollars are being devalued as well. The economy has been doing well for many people, and those people are traveling, airlines and hotels are booking more seats/rooms, and the law of supply and demand means that as demand increases faster than the supply of seats/rooms prices go up - whether that's dollars or points.



I think the main concern isn't that the cost to book a certain room with points is going up. It is that one gets the same number of MR points for their week that they got 15 years ago. So for timeshare owners, it is a double whammy. The cost to book a room with points increases, but the cost of those points also increase as MFs increase.


----------



## JIMinNC (Mar 22, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> I think the main concern isn't that the cost to book a certain room with points is going up. It is that one gets the same number of MR points for their week that they got 15 years ago. So for timeshare owners, it is a double whammy. The cost to book a room with points increases, but the cost of those points also increase as MFs increase.



Good point. Didn't really think about that since conversion to Rewards Points isn't a priority for us. It would seem they really should adjust that conversion factor from time to time to account for point inflation.

That brings up an interesting thought though - the MFs are paid to the resort HOA, not Marriott. But when the week is converted to Rewards points, Marriott has to supply a free hotel room in exchange. How does the HOA reimburse Marriott for providing this benefit? Is it simply that Marriott gets that week to rent or use as they see fit? If that is the case, Marriott gets to charge the current market $$$ value for renting out that timeshare unit, but the owner gets the same Rewards points valuation as they did years ago when Marriott got a lot less for rooms. I'm not an attorney, but I will have to admit, there is a certain inequity there. Certainly class action suits have been brought and settled over much less...


----------



## tschwa2 (Mar 22, 2015)

And x years ago turning in a unit that had a MF's of around $600 could get you two business class tickets to Europe, a week long car rental, and 7 nights in a really nice hotel.

Now for $1200 in MF's you can get 5 nights in a nice hotel.

I didn't own then but it sounds really nice.  It doesn't sound sustainable.  Hope those that had it used it and enjoyed it. Maybe you even made back some of your "investment".  

I think a class action would be very expensive.  At best it may win a 1.25 increase and MVCI will just cover the cost for the additional MR's and the lawyer fees by adding in some kind of extra management fee/convenience fee/ conversion fee that owners have to pay.


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 22, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> Good point. Didn't really think about that since conversion to Rewards Points isn't a priority for us. It would seem they really should adjust that conversion factor from time to time to account for point inflation.
> 
> That brings up an interesting thought though - the MFs are paid to the resort HOA, not Marriott. But when the week is converted to Rewards points, Marriott has to supply a free hotel room in exchange. How does the HOA reimburse Marriott for providing this benefit? Is it simply that Marriott gets that week to rent or use as they see fit? If that is the case, Marriott gets to charge the current market $$$ value for renting out that timeshare unit, but the owner gets the same Rewards points valuation as they did years ago when Marriott got a lot less for rooms. I'm not an attorney, but I will have to admit, there is a certain inequity there. Certainly class action suits have been brought and settled over much less...



Weeks converted to MR points get put up for rent on Marriott.com. So, as you indicate, they are renting them out for the current market rate while still giving points based on a 15 year old valuation.


----------



## Quilter (Mar 22, 2015)

Please don't shoot the messenger. . .

I had a lengthy talk with someone in Marriott's Lakeland office on this subject about 2 years ago.   Was told they can't change the amount of MR points given for a year because the amount is written into the deed.

No, I did not go to my deed to confirm this.   

But I'm sure someone will. . .


----------



## BocaBoy (Mar 22, 2015)

tschwa2 said:


> There was a similar discussion about this time last year:
> Very dissatisfied owner...



I just went back and re-read last year's entire thread that you linked above.  It is an absolutely great discussion, even better than I remembered.  Everyone interested in this current thread should go read it.


----------



## BocaBoy (Mar 22, 2015)

Quilter said:


> Please don't shoot the messenger. . .
> 
> I had a lengthy talk with someone in *Marriott's Lakeland office* on this subject about 2 years ago.   Was told *they can't change the amount of MR points given for a year because the amount is written into the deed.*
> 
> ...



It is definitely NOT in the deed and they should know that at the corporate office in Lakeland.  It is in a supplemental disclosure that says the MR option is not guaranteed and can be changed by Marriott at any time.  Marriott clearly has the ability to unilaterally increase the MR exchange rate.


----------



## BocaBoy (Mar 22, 2015)

alchook said:


> I'm not sure how much value the points in your account are losing. True, you can't get as many nights for them as you could in the past. But the value of those nights has increased with the higher prices hotels are charging.
> 
> With that in mind, it would seem to be fair for Marriott to increase the points given for your unit. Still, *trading for rewards points has always been a poor return for a week*.



We keep hearing this false baloney.  It used to be a FANTASTIC value.  I have posted many times of what you could get for 110,000 points in the early days (when maintenance fees were under $400 annually).  110,000 points then would get you 8 nights in any Marriott hotel worldwide, 2 coach tickets anywhere in the world, and a free week's rental of a full-size car.  One year they also even included a 3 or 4 night cruise but that did not last long.  I would say that was a darn good return for a timeshare week.


----------



## Sunbum (Mar 22, 2015)

Ten years ago I spent 610,000 points for a *7 night* cert which could be split between two properties, as well as enough Air miles to fly my wife and I biz class round trip to Europe.

I just finished spending over 1,000,000 points to get a *5 night* cert, which can no longer be split between properties and enough points to fly us biz class as before.

So 400,000 more points for a 5 night stay instead of a 7 night. (a big difference in 10 short years)


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 22, 2015)

Sunbum said:


> Ten years ago I spent 610,000 points for a *7 night* cert which could be split between two properties, as well as enough Air miles to fly my wife and I biz class round trip to Europe.
> 
> I just finished spending over 1,000,000 points to get a *5 night* cert, which can no longer be split between properties and enough points to fly us biz class as before.
> 
> So 400,000 more points for a 5 night stay instead of a 7 night. (a big difference in 10 short years)



Do you have an extra zero on each of your numbers there? None of the travel packages are close to one million points or even 600,000 today.


----------



## MALC9990 (Mar 23, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> Good point. Didn't really think about that since conversion to Rewards Points isn't a priority for us. It would seem they really should adjust that conversion factor from time to time to account for point inflation.
> 
> That brings up an interesting thought though - the MFs are paid to the resort HOA, not Marriott. But when the week is converted to Rewards points, Marriott has to supply a free hotel room in exchange. How does the HOA reimburse Marriott for providing this benefit? Is it simply that Marriott gets that week to rent or use as they see fit? If that is the case, Marriott gets to charge the current market $$$ value for renting out that timeshare unit, but the owner gets the same Rewards points valuation as they did years ago when Marriott got a lot less for rooms. I'm not an attorney, but I will have to admit, there is a certain inequity there. Certainly class action suits have been brought and settled over much less...



Iniquitous it may be but illegal it certainly is not. So the message really is that exchanging a week for MR points is not a good use of the week.


----------



## MALC9990 (Mar 23, 2015)

Sunbum said:


> Ten years ago I spent 610,000 points for a *7 night* cert which could be split between two properties, as well as enough Air miles to fly my wife and I biz class round trip to Europe.
> 
> I just finished spending over 1,000,000 points to get a *5 night* cert, which can no longer be split between properties and enough points to fly us biz class as before.
> 
> So 400,000 more points for a 5 night stay instead of a 7 night. (a big difference in 10 short years)



I cannot work these figures out. I just booked a 5 night package with MR points for a stay at a Cat 8 hotel. It cost 300,000 MR points and placed 120,000 BA points in my BAEC FF account plus the reservation at the hotel. The big issue is that the 120,000 BAEC points is not enough for the airfare - but will help towards the airfare.


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 23, 2015)

BocaBoy said:


> It is definitely NOT in the deed and they should know that at the corporate office in Lakeland.  It is in a supplemental disclosure that says the MR option is not guaranteed and can be changed by Marriott at any time.  Marriott clearly has the ability to unilaterally increase the MR exchange rate.



I would agree. If it was in the deed, the option transfer upon resale. Which it doesn't.


----------



## Sunbum (Mar 23, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> Do you have an extra zero on each of your numbers there? None of the travel packages are close to one million points or even 600,000 today.



I had to buy multiple packages to get enough air miles to cover the flights. I think it was 4 packages.


----------



## jimf41 (Mar 23, 2015)

BocaBoy said:


> We keep hearing this false baloney.  It used to be a FANTASTIC value.  I have posted many times of what you could get for 110,000 points in the early days (when maintenance fees were under $400 annually).  110,000 points then would get you 8 nights in any Marriott hotel worldwide, 2 coach tickets anywhere in the world, and a free week's rental of a full-size car.  One year they also even included a 3 or 4 night cruise but that did not last long.  I would say that was a darn good return for a timeshare week.



How long ago was this and who do you know that actually got all those benefits for the purchase of one timeshare week? We bought two weeks at Ocean Pointe in 2002 and we got about 500,000 MRPs. That was 13 years ago. None of the weeks you list as owning were even for sale back then. I'm not aware of any TP that went for 8 nights but we did use one in 2001 in Aruba for 7 nights at 100,000 MRPs. While I know all those benefits were offered at one time, they weren't offered all together for one $20,000 timeshare purchase.

It's fun to reminisce about what used to be. When I first started flying back in the late sixties the refueling operators at most airports would give out Green Stamps with a fuel purchase. Do you have any idea how many Green Stamp books you get for a 200 gallon jet fuel purchase? That was just for a 2 hour flight, if you were going cross country you had to bring an extra suitcase with you. Of course a family of four could live on $6000 a year on Long Island in a nice area on the North Shore back then.

In the late eighties all the way through the nineties Marriott was trying to sell a product that had an absolutely terrible reputation in the US. In order to get folks to buy they had to offer tremendous incentives to entice buyers. As time went on people realized the product Marriott was selling was a lot better than all the negative hype associated with timeshares. Marriott didn't have to bribe folks as much as they used to in order to get them in the door so they gradually reduced the incentives. So no more coach tickets around the world, no more cruises for two and probably only enough MRPs to put you up in NYC for 5 or 6 days.

So you used to be able to turn in your unit for 100,000 MRPs and spend a week in Aruba instead of Ocean Pointe in the prime season. Now you can only get 2-3 days for that same swap. That doesn't mean it was a great deal then and it's a bad deal now. It was a terrible deal then and it's a horrendous deal now. Really folks a 2 bedroom 1200 sq ft apartment for a 300 sq ft hotel room both in beach front locations with nice grounds?

When you buy a timeshare or any other product you buy the product not the incentives. You don't buy a car because the dealer is offering free gas for a year and 0% financing. You buy a car because you want/need a car. Marriott never made an offer to anyone that said if you don't want your week just give it to us and we'll give you free R/T coach tickets anywhere in the world, seven nights in any of our hotels and a free cruise for two. They offered a specific number of MRPs and you assumed that what you could get for those points then would never change. They never told anyone that you could renegotiate if inflation reduced the value of the incentive they offered.


----------



## Mamianka (Mar 23, 2015)

Sunbum said:


> I had to buy multiple packages to get enough air miles to cover the flights. I think it was 4 packages.



When we bought a hole in the ground in 2004 (Grand Chateau 2BR) all the points, miles, etc. gave us a flight to London and a week in the Chancery Court.  I think the whole deal was 230,000 points.  We are now working on a free week plus first-class air to Paris for 2 years from now.  we looked at the packages, and found that it suited us better to do it ourselves.  We need 270,000 or 240,000 for the week in a hotel; yes, we threw in our BeachPlace for 90,000, but will easily make the rest on card spending.  For every 25K we spend on our Delta Amex card, we get a bonus of 10K.  Since we use our Delta and Marriott cards for almost everything, we can easily do this - we got a double bonus, last year, already hit one for this year, and might even make a triple this year, since we are charging a Tauck cruise.  Except for the cruise, this is NOT on luxury spending - it is on house bills, normal shopping, and now we can charge taxes (always could do state and Federal, but now can do municipal, too.)  Yes, prices/points increase on everything - but with no extra spending, and just some mart card management, we still feel that we are getting a decent deal.  No - not FREE - nothing in life is free - but we are OK.    Feel free to show me the error of our ways - always eager to learn (besides judging music competition here in NY, we gladly pay top coaches $$$ to tell US how to refine out skills.)  Fire away.  M


----------



## Swice (Mar 23, 2015)

*credit card*

I understand the rising costs per night of a hotel room...  

Trading timeshare week for Marriott Rewards points has never been the "best" value to begin with.    I've never done it, but figured that option was always there if I needed it as a safety net.

I actually am more upset that the Marriott Credit Card "free night" is only good for levels 1-5.     There are very few cat 5's anymore!


----------



## alchook (Mar 23, 2015)

BocaBoy said:


> 110,000 points then would get you 8 nights in any Marriott hotel worldwide, 2 coach tickets anywhere in the world, and a free week's rental of a full-size car.



I stand corrected.

Still, it would be a bit unfair to blame the loss of that kind of deal strictly on Marriott. On United, today two round trip coach tickets to Europe will cost at least 120,000 FFM if they were available, which they would likely not be. A domestic coach seat on Delta costs 40,000 miles.

For years selling FFM was the one profitable thing airlines were doing, so they sold a lot of them. They responded to the excess inventory with radical devaluations.


----------



## Saintsfanfl (Mar 23, 2015)

alchook said:


> Still, it would be a bit unfair to blame the loss of that kind of deal strictly on Marriott.



You can't blame United or Delta for Marriott's devaluations. Each company's decision is independent. Money being the motivation is obviously the same across the board but the decision to screw the most valuable customers solely lies with Marriott, or any other company making that decision. There isn't anyone else to blame.


----------



## ilene13 (Mar 23, 2015)

When we bought Grande Ocean in 1991 and it was a blueprint, they gave us a 200,000 point package as an incentive.  It covered airfare and a week at the Casa Magna in Cancun for 2 people.  I never heard of a 110,000 point package covering that.


----------



## jme (Mar 23, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> How long ago was this and who do you know that actually got all those benefits for the purchase of one timeshare week?



I did it.....twice.  took 150,000, but still a great value. One TS week plus a couple of tours. 

Went to Europe.....twice.  I remember adding a few Rewards Points to get it up to 150,000 points which qualified us for each "World Trip".

first trip ---17 nights------7 nights at London's County Hall, combined with 10 extra nights ---- a trade week at Wychnor Park Country Club villas, and 3 more Rewards nights back in London at Grosvenor Square Hotel......in year 2000.

In 2001, we went to Scotland ......first stayed again at London's County Hall for 2 nights, then spent a week on a trade at Cameron House cottages, then 5 nights at Edinburgh's Balmoral Hotel for cash, then a few more nights back in London at County Hall again. 

All of this included 2 airline tickets with Delta each time ....we added 2 additional airline tickets for our kids using other FF miles. They accompanied us both times, 2000 and 2001.

Awesome trips, cannot be repeated at those values.




.


----------



## jimf41 (Mar 23, 2015)

jme said:


> I did it.....twice.  took 150,000, but still a great value. One TS week plus a couple of tours.
> 
> Went to Europe.....twice.  I remember adding a few Rewards Points to get it up to 150,000 points which qualified us for each "World Trip".
> 
> ...



You got all that for buying one timeshare?


----------



## chunkygal (Mar 23, 2015)

We did that also and a week a Paris Vendome (two rooms cAuse in Europe everything is smaller but the price).
I used to think trading for mrp was a good deal. Oh and tow tix and a week in Hawaii at one time with the packages.


----------



## l0410z (Mar 23, 2015)

There are a number of reasons I purchased a summer resale week at the Monarch on HHI in 1995.  The most important was I enjoyed Sea Pines on  HHI but a close second was the ability to get 130,000 MR points every year.  

MR points expanded vacation travel from the 10 Marriott timeshare locations (do not remember actual number in 1995) to anywhere there was a Marriott hotel or partner location. 

Thinks about it, my MF in 1995 was about 650.  130K MR could get you any Marriott hotel in the world. About 200,000 travel package(maybe 220,000) could get you 2 round trip tickets to anywhere AA (or AA Partner)  flew plus 7 nights at a Marriott hotel and 7 days hertz car rental.  In 2001, about 400000 points funded a lot of a three week London, Paris, Madrid, Toledo and Málaga vacation  for my wife, 2 kids and myself. 

My current 1200 MF  gets me 130,000 points now. A Renaissance in  Chicago will cost me $137 a night next month using my IBM discount.  It would cost me  40,000 MR points for that same night. We are going for 3 nights so I am not using points.   130,000 points can get me 7 nights at a Fairfield Inn in Chicago if I wanted to stay 7 nights. 

The program is not the same.    The fact that Marriott timeshare and hotels are different companies, means the program will continue to get worse.   Quite frankly I even understand why the devaluation.  The 130,000 is a static number. There is no inflation or cost of living increase that goes with it.    As much as I do not like it, it is what is is. 

I purchased another Monarch and I did not do so through Marriott resale.  Switching to MR points offers zero value to me since the program changes. 

IMHO a DC points or Timeshare exchange for MR points under most circumstances is waste of money.


----------



## jme (Mar 23, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> You got all that for buying one timeshare?[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## bogey21 (Mar 23, 2015)

l0410z said:


> There are a number of reasons I purchased a summer resale week at the Monarch on HHI in 1995.  The most important was I enjoyed Sea Pines on  HHI but a close second was the ability to get 130,000 MR points every year.



I, too, bought a Monarch Week many years ago which I later sold.  I remember though that one of the "perks" with my Monarch Week was that it could be exchanged in MRP *every year*.  My recollection is that with most other Marriott properties the right to exchange for MRP was less than every year.  I also remember that I considered this a valuable "perk".

George


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 23, 2015)

Sunbum said:


> I had to buy multiple packages to get enough air miles to cover the flights. I think it was 4 packages.



So if you got four packages, you got 20 nights instead of the 5 nights that you stated. That is why I was confused. That seems to throw a lot of the math off after that...


----------



## BocaBoy (Mar 23, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> *How long ago was this and who do you know that actually got all those benefits for the purchase of one timeshare week?* We bought two weeks at Ocean Pointe in 2002 and we got about 500,000 MRPs. That was 13 years ago. None of the weeks you list as owning were even for sale back then. I'm not aware of any TP that went for 8 nights but we did use one in 2001 in Aruba for 7 nights at 100,000 MRPs. *While I know all those benefits were offered at one time, they weren't offered all together for one $20,000 timeshare purchase.*



This was in the late 1980's and very early 1990's.  And yes, I did all these things more than once for the 110,000 points we got for exchanging our single week.  I wish I had saved the award charts from that era because a lot of people who came in later don't seem to want to believe it.  We owned Sabal Palms back then, which we purchased pre-construction.  (We sold Sabal Palms when we bought in Hawaii in 2006-2007) and everything I said about the MR exchanges in the early days is 100% true.  A few years after we bought they "devalued" the program but also changed the airline portion to miles instead of buying you two coach tickets (which could not be upgraded).  Because we like to fly overseas in business class I did not consider these changes to be a takeaway for us because we got much better airline value.  That is when they introduced the 7-night travel packages for 200,000 - 270,000 points each, which was still a great value.  (Previously they had not been called travel packages, although that is waht they were in reality.)  It has been the devaluations of the past 10-15 years that have really hurt.

Since you bought in 2002, you came in after the best values and made the mistake of assuming that the previous offerings had been the same or similar.


----------



## BocaBoy (Mar 23, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> Marriott never made an offer to anyone that said if you don't want your week just give it to us and we'll give you free R/T coach tickets anywhere in the world, seven nights in any of our hotels and a free cruise for two. They offered a specific number of MRPs and you assumed that what you could get for those points then would never change.



Geez, that is simply NOT TRUE.  It is true they gave you 110,000 points back then but they had a chart that said you could use those points for 8 hotel nights worldwide in ANY Marriott hotel, 2 coach tickets worldwide, a free full size Hertz rental car week, AND a short cruise one year in addition.  That was the exchange.  You redeemed 110,000 points for that exact product.  You did not use the points to purchase ANY of the components separately based on an airline or hotel chart.  And that was the sales pitch.  It is not like today when you use some of your points for airline miles and get the flights that those miles will buy, etc.  You say they NEVER did this but you bought 15 years after the Marriott timeshare exchange program started and missed those years.  Believe me.


----------



## BocaBoy (Mar 23, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> In the late eighties all the way through the nineties Marriott was trying to sell a product that had an absolutely terrible reputation in the US. In order to get folks to buy they had to offer tremendous incentives to entice buyers. As time went on people realized the product Marriott was selling was a lot better than all the negative hype associated with timeshares. Marriott didn't have to bribe folks as much as they used to in order to get them in the door so they gradually reduced the incentives. So no more coach tickets around the world, no more cruises for two and probably only enough MRPs to put you up in NYC for 5 or 6 days.



This thread is not about incentives to get you in the door, or even the incentives to get you to purchase, but rather about the value of the exchange for MR points you could make after you had already bought.  I would actually like to agree with you on the purchase incentives, but those in the early days were much smaller and did not really get big until the 1990's.


----------



## Wally3433 (Mar 23, 2015)

BocaBoy said:


> Geez, that is simply NOT TRUE.  It is true they gave you 110,000 points back then but they had a chart that said you could use those points for 8 hotel nights worldwide in ANY Marriott hotel, 2 coach tickets worldwide, a free full size Hertz rental car week, AND a short cruise one year in addition.  That was the exchange.  You redeemed 110,000 points for that exact product.  You did not use the points to purchase ANY of the components separately based on an airline or hotel chart.  And that was the sales pitch.  It is not like today when you use some of your points for airline miles and get the flights that those miles will buy, etc.  You say they NEVER did this but you bought 15 years after the Marriott timeshare exchange program started and missed those years.  Believe me.



I agree with this.  I can vividly remember the chart that was placed in front of me showing these options.


----------



## jtdillian (Mar 23, 2015)

I'm surprised no one mentioned a huge indirect savings "hotel tax" aren't you all mad that since 1981 Marriott is still not charging any!!!! Do you know what 18 1/2% is on a room in NYC? But I guess everything is devalued.


----------



## l0410z (Mar 23, 2015)

jtdillian said:


> I'm surprised no one mentioned a huge indirect savings "hotel tax" aren't you all mad that since 1981 Marriott is still not charging any!!!! Do you know what 18 1/2% is on a room in NYC? But I guess everything is devalued.



No company in any industry makes tax policy.  If they are required to collect it and don't they are responsible to pay it  If they are not required to collect them and they do, it is illegal.  If they collected them in error, unless given one time permission to keep it, they need to give the taxes collected back. 

Are you suggesting/saying that in locations they are required to collect taxes they are paying them?


----------



## Sunbum (Mar 23, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> So if you got four packages, you got 20 nights instead of the 5 nights that you stated. That is why I was confused. That seems to throw a lot of the math off after that...



You are correct. I have extra rooms that have to be used in groups of 5 consecutive nights. I did not want these and I probably will not use them except for maybe 2 consecutive nights. So I have about 8 usable nights. 

Point being, I did not have to take all these extra nights 10 years ago. I was able to get what I needed without all the hassle and the extra 400,000 points.

Question: I believe the extra nights that I had to buy expire in one year. How many times, if any, can I get the expiry date extended? (I have been Platinum member for years, if it matters)


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 23, 2015)

Saintsfanfl said:


> You can't blame United or Delta for Marriott's devaluations. Each company's decision is independent. Money being the motivation is obviously the same across the board but the decision to screw the most valuable customers solely lies with Marriott, or any other company making that decision. There isn't anyone else to blame.



I think though that the devaluation is two fold. Marriott has devalued their program as well as the airlines devaluing theirs. So those 120,000 miles you get with a travel package don't go as far as they used to. Especially on international partner flights. The airlines massively devalued these last year by upping the mileage requirements to fly them.


----------



## Frisbeeace (Mar 24, 2015)

*Old same story*



dioxide45 said:


> I think the main concern isn't that the cost to book a certain room with points is going up. It is that one gets the same number of MR points for their week that they got 15 years ago. So for timeshare owners, it is a double whammy. The cost to book a room with points increases, but the cost of those points also increase as MFs increase.



Dioxide45 keeps it simple down to the core of this problem while most posts wander around nostalgic memories. It is not about all the lost benefits we got 15-20 years ago. I bought at Sabal Palms back in 1993 so I could also tell you about those times of generous travel packages when the top hotel category was 6.

This is basic economics. Hard facts are that I still get paid the same 110,000 MRP for my 7 nights while Marriott sells it now at 280,000 MRP or +$3,000 a week. So I get paid at 1993 rates while I my nights are sold at 2015 rates. The spread (or skimming) in MRP is now 154% so I wonder who owns the property? Marriott is squizing us and taking 60% of the profit of our properties. 

Nowadays with most hotels in categories 7-9 (which did not exist then), I can trade 7 weeks of a 2 bedroom villa which costs me $1,500 in MF for 2-3 nights at an average cost of $600 per night. Something is wrong here. So, what's the prospect 5-10 years down the road? Trading my week for one night at a category 12 hotel?

The MRP option must remain valid, current and fair for those owners who don't want or can't occupy their properties. 

Marriott it totally capable of making changes in the system and giving us owners a fair compensation for our weeks to keep up with the constant devaluation. My wife is a lawyer and she does find grounds for a class action. 

Easiest way out is to sell. Again Marriott commits abuse and offers me $3,800 per week less closing costs and taxes. I'll take it.


----------



## jimf41 (Mar 24, 2015)

BocaBoy said:


> Geez, that is simply NOT TRUE.  It is true they gave you 110,000 points back then but they had a chart that said you could use those points for 8 hotel nights worldwide in ANY Marriott hotel, 2 coach tickets worldwide, a free full size Hertz rental car week, AND a short cruise one year in addition.  That was the exchange.  You redeemed 110,000 points for that exact product.  You did not use the points to purchase ANY of the components separately based on an airline or hotel chart.  And that was the sales pitch.  It is not like today when you use some of your points for airline miles and get the flights that those miles will buy, etc.  You say they NEVER did this but you bought 15 years after the Marriott timeshare exchange program started and missed those years.  Believe me.



So was the offer 110,000 MRPs with a chart explaining what you could do with them or was was it 0 MRPs with 8 hotel nights, 2 R/T coach tickets, free 7 day car rental and a cruise. Seems odd that they would give you 7 days car rental and 8 nights in the hotel.

In any case this was almost 30 years ago and as I said before it's fun to reminisce. About that time I bought my wife a full size Chevy wagon with all the bells and whistles for about $10,000. You can't buy anything with that seating capacity and comfort level for less the $45,000 today.


----------



## l0410z (Mar 24, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> In any case this was almost 30 years ago and as I said before it's fun to reminisce. About that time I bought my wife a full size Chevy wagon with all the bells and whistles for about $10,000. You can't buy anything with that seating capacity and comfort level for less the $45,000 today.



I agree with you with the exception that you if purchased that same  exact car in 2015 that you did 30 years ago, would you pay 45,000.   Lets look at like value since that is the real comparison when you go away from cash.   3 nights in Chicago April 8th is 137 per night (IBM discounted) for 2 nights and 280 for the third or 120K points for the same 3 nights. (BTW without the IBM discount the first two nights are 195). My Monarch gets 130K points. Is like value 30 years later (Monarch is actually 30 years old), 3 nights in Chicago.  I do not think so.  This is why I am paying for the first two nights and using points for the 3rd.  

The devaluation sucks, no question about it.  As much as I dislike what is going on, Marriott never stated there would be periodic adjustments. There is no way to fund it.  The MF's are to run the property and unrelated to MR.   In order to increase the MR points over time it must be funded from somewhere.  Profits from MVCI...ha ha... it would need to be in the 10K report...shareholders would love that.. no way.  

I have no crystal ball, but fool me once... This is why I am skeptical of the straight DC point system (as opposed to using Legacy weeks or renting points). Let us ignore the new versus used and assume we are talking about used points.  Is this not the same argument for the devaluation of DC points over time?  The big difference is with weeks you have some portion of  free market dynamics.  With DC points MVCI is in 100% control.      MF fees are to run the properties and MVCI will control this.   MVCI controls the point exchange for units within MVCI,  the exchange rate for trading  II, the exchange rate for MR   and the exchange rate for all trips, cruises, etc...  No where is there a commitment that what you can get in 2015 using DC points is what you can get in the future.    

 The current properties are most likely a lock to stay the same since most are legacy weeks anyway and it is unlikely they will continue to  increase the amount to exchange into while keeping the current legacy point value the same.    New properties, exchange into II, MR or for outside vacations.. without a doubt MVCI is in complete control.  

Back on point... MVCI has done nothing wrong with the devaluation of MR but that is not the same as doing things right.


----------



## JIMinNC (Mar 24, 2015)

l0410z said:


> My Monarch gets 130K points...
> 
> ... Marriott never stated there would be periodic adjustments. There is no way to fund it.  The MF's are to run the property and unrelated to MR.   In order to increase the MR points over time it must be funded from somewhere.




True, they never promised to adjust the points awarded. But here's how the marketplace automatically provides the funding mechanism for an increase if Marriott had chosen to do so:

If you exchange your Monarch week for 130K Rewards points, Marriott Corp. gets your week to rent on Marriott.com. Today they probably would rent that summer week for $400 or $500 per night - so $2800 to $3500 for the week. Thirty years ago the rental revenue wouldn't have been anything close to that, but you would have still received the same 130K Rewards points. So today, Marriott is getting 2015 revenue from your week, but they are paying you for that week in 1985 "dollars" (Rewards points). Then, they also charge you 2015 Rewards points rates when you redeem your 1985 points. They are keeping their "costs" in 1985 dollars, but receiving 2015 revenue. The "funding" for increasing Rewards points allocations could have easily come from the inflation in room rates over time.

A great deal for Marriott; not so for owners.


----------



## Frisbeeace (Mar 24, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> True, they never promised to adjust the points awarded. But here's how the marketplace automatically provides the funding mechanism for an increase if Marriott had chosen to do so:
> 
> If you exchange your Monarch week for 130K Rewards points, Marriott Corp. gets your week to rent on Marriott.com. Today they probably would rent that summer week for $400 or $500 per night - so $2800 to $3500 for the week. Thirty years ago the rental revenue wouldn't have been anything close to that, but you would have still received the same 130K Rewards points. So today, Marriott is getting 2015 revenue from your week, but they are paying you for that week in 1985 "dollars" (Rewards points). Then, they also charge you 2015 Rewards points rates when you redeem your 1985 points. They are keeping their "costs" in 1985 dollars, but receiving 2015 revenue. The "funding" for increasing Rewards points allocations could have easily come from the inflation in room rates over time.
> 
> A great deal for Marriott; not so for owners.



Exactly. I wouldn't mind if a car costs 4x after 30 years if my salary also increased accordingly. But, for owners, our "salary" remains equal. Just crazy.


----------



## SueDonJ (Mar 24, 2015)

l0410z said:


> ... I have no crystal ball, but fool me once... This is why I am skeptical of the straight DC point system (as opposed to using Legacy weeks or renting points). Let us ignore the new versus used and assume we are talking about used points.  Is this not the same argument for the devaluation of DC points over time?  The big difference is with weeks you have some portion of  free market dynamics.  With DC points MVCI is in 100% control.      MF fees are to run the properties and MVCI will control this.   MVCI controls the point exchange for units within MVCI,  the exchange rate for trading  II, the exchange rate for MR   and the exchange rate for all trips, cruises, etc...  No where is there a commitment that what you can get in 2015 using DC points is what you can get in the future.
> 
> The current properties are most likely a lock to stay the same since most are legacy weeks anyway and it is unlikely they will continue to  increase the amount to exchange into while keeping the current legacy point value the same.    New properties, exchange into II, MR or for outside vacations.. without a doubt MVCI is in complete control. ...



Actually, DC Trust Points are more protected from the type of "inflationary" devaluations that occur with the Marriott Rewards Exchange program, than DC Exchange (from Enrolled Weeks) Points are.

There are only so many Trust Points as correlated to the intervals that have been conveyed to the Trust, and MVW is constrained by timeshare regulations so that they're not able to increase the amounts of Points required for a DC interval without offsetting such increases with decreases somewhere else in the yearly calendar/Points Chart.  In other words, they can't for example implement a 5% increase across the board for all intervals.

MVW has said that where increases are implemented they'll be offset within the same resort Points Chart, and that's how they've been done historically with the adjustments that we have seen related to holidays (as well as the more-involved adjustments we saw last year in the Ritz-Carlton Vail chart.)  But the documents don't exactly make it clear that offsets must occur within the same resort Points Chart, so some TUGgers think that there's a possibility for increases in the Points Charts of the highest-demand - or newer, as/if they come on line - resorts to be offset by decreases in the charts of lesser-demand/older resorts.  Again, that's not how any adjustments have been done since the DC was introduced, but we watch for the possibility.

The reason Exchange Points are more vulnerable to MRP program-like devaluations is, they're not correlated to Trust conveyances and not subject to the same regulations.  MVW is free to adjust the allotments for Enrolled Weeks based on demand or any other metric they choose, and the governing docs related to Weeks enrollment make it clear that the possibility exists.  As yet we haven't seen any such devaluations but that doesn't mean they can't happen.


----------



## Quilter (Mar 24, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> True, they never promised to adjust the points awarded. But here's how the marketplace automatically provides the funding mechanism for an increase if Marriott had chosen to do so:
> 
> If you exchange your Monarch week for 130K Rewards points, Marriott Corp. gets your week to rent on Marriott.com. Today they probably would rent that summer week for $400 or $500 per night - so $2800 to $3500 for the week. Thirty years ago the rental revenue wouldn't have been anything close to that, but you would have still received the same 130K Rewards points. So today, Marriott is getting 2015 revenue from your week, but they are paying you for that week in 1985 "dollars" (Rewards points). Then, they also charge you 2015 Rewards points rates when you redeem your 1985 points. They are keeping their "costs" in 1985 dollars, but receiving 2015 revenue. The "funding" for increasing Rewards points allocations could have easily come from the inflation in room rates over time.
> 
> A great deal for Marriott; not so for owners.



Don't forget to add (I'm sure it is mentioned in a previous post)  that the owner is also paying 2015 m/f's.   Our m/f's in '99 - ? were $500 - $600.   Now they are $1000 - $1400.


----------



## l0410z (Mar 24, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> Actually, DC Trust Points are more protected from the type of "inflationary" devaluations that occur with the Marriott Rewards Exchange program, than DC Exchange (from Enrolled Weeks) Points are.
> 
> There are only so many Trust Points as correlated to the intervals that have been conveyed to the Trust, and MVW is constrained by timeshare regulations so that they're not able to increase the amounts of Points required for a DC interval without offsetting such increases with decreases somewhere else in the yearly calendar/Points Chart.  In other words, they can't for example implement a 5% increase across the board for all intervals.
> 
> ...




I agree with you for existing inventory.  The DC point that can be sold is fixed by what was put into the trust.  As you increase from one place you must decrease from another.  

Your DC point ownership is fixed.   What is not fixed how many you need to give up for MR which is not fixed.    This ratio for the exchange can be changed.  The DC points required for II exchange can be changed.  The DC points required for cruises etc can be changed.  Each increase is a devaluation on what you current point allocation gets you.  Now look out 20 years.  Btw, my 130k MR points might get me a chair in the lobby.


----------



## SueDonJ (Mar 24, 2015)

l0410z said:


> I agree with you for existing inventory.  The DC point that can be sold is fixed by what was put into the trust.  As you increase from one place you must decrease from another. ...



Depends what you mean by "place" - MVW says all increases in the Points Charts will be offset by decreases in the same resorts' Points Charts, not within any other resorts' charts.  (But again, the governing docs aren't clear as to whether adjustments *must* be within the individual resort charts, regardless of what MVW says.) 



l0410z said:


> Your DC point ownership is fixed.   What is not fixed how many you need to give up for MR which is not fixed.    This ratio for the exchange can be changed.  The DC points required for II exchange can be changed.  The DC points required for cruises etc can be changed.  Each increase is a devaluation on what you current point allocation gets you.  Now look out 20 years.  Btw, my 130k MR points might get me a chair in the lobby.



If you purchase DC Points the number of Trust Points you own is fixed, agreed.  I also agree that the DC-related values for MRP/II/etc exchanges are not fixed.  But you don't say anything here about DC Points allotments for enrolled Weeks, and it's important in the overall discussion to be clear that those allotments of DC Exchange Points are also not fixed.


----------



## jimf41 (Mar 24, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> But you don't say anything here about DC Points allotments for enrolled Weeks, and it's important in the overall discussion to be clear that those allotments of DC Exchange Points are also not fixed.



That's a little misleading. The points required to book at a resort are fixed. They can adjust from season to season but the resort total is fixed. The amount that they allocate to a weeks owner hasn't been defined in any of the DOCs that I've seen other than what they've told each enrolled owner. I've seen nothing that says they can change that allotment in the future.


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 24, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> That's a little misleading. The points required to book at a resort are fixed. They can adjust from season to season but the resort total is fixed. The amount that they allocate to a weeks owner hasn't been defined in any of the DOCs that I've seen other than what they've told each enrolled owner. I've seen nothing that says they *can *change that allotment in the future.



Jim, Did you mean to say "can't"? If not, the same could be said that there is nothing that says they can't change that allotment in the future.


----------



## l0410z (Mar 24, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> If you purchase DC Points the number of Trust Points you own is fixed, agreed.  I also agree that the DC-related values for MRP/II/etc exchanges are not fixed.  But you don't say anything here about DC Points allotments for enrolled Weeks, and it's important in the overall discussion to be clear that those allotments of DC Exchange Points are also not fixed.




You are correct, all DC points are devalued including enrolled week. I did not mean to turn this into a comparison as if legacy has a DC point advantage.  It does not.  

I look at my exchange to the DC point program as a appreciated benefit that MVCI had to do to jump start program and get prime time inventory.  If I do not like the devalued exchange rate I can not participate.  MVCI has too much control on every aspect of the DC exchange rate and you have no options as a points only user.  I like the product (marriott timeshares) but understand the profits that drive the stock can only be achieved from a  captured customer set.


----------



## SueDonJ (Mar 24, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> That's a little misleading. The points required to book at a resort are fixed. They can adjust from season to season but the resort total is fixed. The amount that they allocate to a weeks owner hasn't been defined in any of the DOCs that I've seen other than what they've told each enrolled owner. I've seen nothing that says they can change that allotment in the future.



Here are a few things.  Note also that in our my-vacationclub.com accounts, the field for DC Point values of enrolled Weeks is notated as, "*Current* MVC Election Value" (bolding is mine.)

From the Enrollment Terms & Conditions:





> 5. Owner recognizes and acknowledges that:
> ...
> h. MVCEC reserves the right to adjust from time to time the quantity of Exchange Points received in exchange for enrollment or deposit of the use week associated with the Timeshare Interest, or necessary to reserve Accommodations, due to changes in demand in a specific market ...



From the "Owner Help" FAQ on my-vacationclub.com for Enrolled Owners:





> *How many Vacation Club Points are my Marriott Vacation Club weeks worth?*
> The number of Vacation Club Points you may receive for your enrolled week(s) in a given Use Year is based on various factors such as relative daily and seasonal demand, villa capacity, size, view, and furnishings, and other parameters established by the Exchange Company, and may vary periodically based on such factors.



From the DC "Exchange Procedures" document:





> ... III.B.2. For administrative convenience in the operation of the Program and for determination of the respective rights of Exchange Members to enjoy the benefits of the Program, the Exchange Company will assign a Distribution of Exchange Points to each Exchange Member for Use Periods Deposited by the Exchange Member for exchange each Use Year. The number of Exchange Points in a Distribution for a particular Use Period is based on various factors such as relative daily and seasonal demand, Accommodation capacity, size, view, and furnishings, and other valuation parameters established by the Exchange Company and may vary periodically by such factors. The number of Exchange Points in a Distribution is not in any way intended to be reflective of the economic value of any Interest.


----------



## SueDonJ (Mar 24, 2015)

l0410z said:


> You are correct, all DC points are devalued including enrolled week. I did not mean to turn this into a comparison as if legacy has a DC point advantage.  It does not.
> 
> I look at my exchange to the DC point program as a appreciated benefit that MVCI had to do to jump start program and get prime time inventory.  If I do not like the devalued exchange rate I can not participate.  MVCI has too much control on every aspect of the DC exchange rate and you have no options as a points only user.  I like the product (marriott timeshares) but understand the profits that drive the stock can only be achieved from a  captured customer set.



What I am trying to get across is that if you buy 2,000 DC Trust Points you will always own 2,000, but if you own an Enrolled Week that is today allotted 2,000 Points, it could be allotted more or less at any time in the future.  And, that although the MRP and II DC-exchange metrics could be devalued in the future in the same way that MRP metrics have been devalued in the Weeks System, such "inflationary" across-the-board devaluations cannot take place in the DC Points Charts.  There, every increase must be offset by a decrease so that the total remains constant (although, again, it's not clear from the documents that each individual resort chart must remain constant, which is the way MVW has implemented adjustments so far.)


----------



## Fasttr (Mar 24, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> What I am trying to get across is that if you buy 2,000 DC Trust Points you will always own 2,000, but if you own an Enrolled Week that is today allotted 2,000 Points, it could be allotted more or less at any time in the future.  And, that although the MRP and II DC-exchange metrics could be devalued in the future in the same way that MRP metrics have been devalued in the Weeks System, such "inflationary" across-the-board devaluations cannot take place in the DC Points Charts.  There, every increase must be offset by a decrease so that the total remains constant (although, again, it's not clear from the documents that each individual resort chart must remain constant, which is the way MVW has implemented adjustments so far.)



But...and its a Big But ....According to the Exchange Docs, even a Trust Point "value" in the DC can be changed for purposes of ressie's confirmed INSIDE the Exchange company (which as we all know, the vast majority of them are).  

Here is the excerpt that I am referring to....Bolding is mine.  



> B. Distribution.
> 1. Trust Members. For administrative convenience in the operation of the Program and for determination of the respective rights of Members to enjoy the benefits of the Program, each Member will be assigned a Distribution each Use Year. The Distribution represents the reservation rights of the Member’s Interests during a particular Use Year in relation to other Interests participating in the Program during that Use Year. A Member will be permitted to use his or her Affiliate Program points each Use Year to make a reservation for Accommodations that are part of the Member’s Affiliate Program or the Member may voluntarily participate in the Program by converting all or a portion of his or her Affiliate Program points into Exchange Points for the purpose of making a reservation through the Program. Unless otherwise provided by Exchange Company, Members may not convert his or her Affiliate Program points into Exchange Points except in connection with making a reservation through the Program. *Currently, the conversion of Affiliate Program points into Exchange Points is one-to-one; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to vary the conversion ratio in Exchange Company’s sole discretion*, including, but not limited to, on an Affiliate Program-by-Affiliate Program basis.


----------



## BocaBoy (Mar 24, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> But...and its a Big But ....According to the Exchange Docs, even a Trust Point "value" in the DC can be changed for purposes of ressie's confirmed INSIDE the Exchange company (which as we all know, the vast majority of them are).



I think the language you quote says that the legacy points of a trust owner can be changed.  Aren't "Affiliate Program" points the official name for legacy points?


----------



## SueDonJ (Mar 25, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> But...and its a Big But ....According to the Exchange Docs, even a Trust Point "value" in the DC can be changed for purposes of ressie's confirmed INSIDE the Exchange company (which as we all know, the vast majority of them are).
> 
> Here is the excerpt that I am referring to....Bolding is mine.



I think you're right.  Technically, Trust Members are affiliated members of the DC Exchange Company, just as Enrolled Weeks Owners are, and it appears that the one-to-one ratio of Trust Points to Exchange Points may not be fixed.

Hmmmmmm.  We're seeing that MVW is processing the overwhelming majority of DC reservations through the Exchange Company, right?  And we've been assuming that's because they need all of the inventory to be mingled in order for the program to be functionally successful.  So unless they enact more separation - allowing more intervals to be reserved direct from the Trust by Trust Members - then it seems in order to protect Trust Members' Points values they have to continue with the one-to-one ratio of Trust to Exchange Points.  I think?

There's a document mentioned in the Exchange Procedures that relates to Trust Points ownership, the "Affiliation Agreement," which isn't linked on the website.  The relationship and metrics are probably more fully defined in that.


----------



## SueDonJ (Mar 25, 2015)

BocaBoy said:


> I think the language you quote says that the legacy points of a trust owner can be changed.  Aren't "Affiliate Program" points the official name for legacy points?



"Exchange Points" is the defined term for Affiliate Program Points.  We've always known that Legacy Points are Exchange Points, that Enrolled Weeks Owners are Affiliate Members.  We've also known that the DC Trust is a separate entity from the DC Exchange Company, but I don't remember that we ever broke down the affiliation to the extent that Fasttr has done here.  Makes sense, though.  I think.


----------



## MALC9990 (Mar 25, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> "Exchange Points" is the defined term for Affiliate Program Points.  We've always known that Legacy Points are Exchange Points, that Enrolled Weeks Owners are Affiliate Members.  We've also known that the DC Trust is a separate entity from the DC Exchange Company, but I don't remember that we ever broke down the affiliation to the extent that Fasttr has done here.  Makes sense, though.  I think.



Here is my view of my relationship with the DC Points system. As an owner in Europe, there is no Trust inventory. So if  US based DC points members (enrolled or Trust) want to travel to European resorts then MVCI need myself and other enrolled owners in the European resorts to swap some of our weeks for DC points. Therefore, MVCI must keep myself and other European enrolled owners sweet and happy with the system. We do have a choice of electing our week(s) for DC points or not. So if the system is changed in ways that negatively affect my jsage options then I will not elect for points and will look at my other options for usage (home week usage, II exchange, rent out etc). The result could be a dearth of availability for DC point reservations in the European resorts if MVCI were to implement changes that negatively impact European enrolled owers.

Personally I am happy wth my enrollment and the options that the DC system has offered me so far but, and that is a BIG BUT, I have a choice and the coice is one that I would be happy to take, which is to simply use my home resort weeks. If that choice were to look like becoming a permanent one then there would come a point when I would have to question my annual membership dues. 

So I do not foresee significant negative changes that would push me to stop using DC points, that would not be in the interests of MVCI.


----------



## bazzap (Mar 25, 2015)

MALC9990 said:


> Here is my view of my relationship with the DC Points system. As an owner in Europe, there is no Trust inventory. So if  US based DC points members (enrolled or Trust) want to travel to European resorts then MVCI need myself and other enrolled owners in the European resorts to swap some of our weeks for DC points. Therefore, MVCI must keep myself and other European enrolled owners sweet and happy with the system. We do have a choice of electing our week(s) for DC points or not. So if the system is changed in ways that negatively affect my jsage options then I will not elect for points and will look at my other options for usage (home week usage, II exchange, rent out etc). The result could be a dearth of availability for DC point reservations in the European resorts if MVCI were to implement changes that negatively impact European enrolled owers.
> 
> Personally I am happy wth my enrollment and the options that the DC system has offered me so far but, and that is a BIG BUT, I have a choice and the coice is one that I would be happy to take, which is to simply use my home resort weeks. If that choice were to look like becoming a permanent one then there would come a point when I would have to question my annual membership dues.
> 
> So I do not foresee significant negative changes that would push me to stop using DC points, that would not be in the interests of MVCI.


I totally agree with all you say here Malcolm.
I guess MVCI could look at this in two ways though, 
either
- European resorts are less than 10% of all the resorts and a decreasing % as and when any new resorts open, so is it really that big a factor in their considerations
or
- European resorts are in demand for DC, they need the inventory and as you say they need to have enrolled owners here continue to elect for points, so they would keep the allocation relatively high to ensure we do this.
Hopefully, it would be the latter view they take.


----------



## jimf41 (Mar 25, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> Jim, Did you mean to say "can't"? If not, the same could be said that there is nothing that says they can't change that allotment in the future.



No I meant to say what I said. You raise a good point though. Since they never addressed changing an enrolled owners entitled point allocation it would seem to me that they never thought of ever changing it. Of course there are a lot of more skeptical owners who would argue that they didn't mention it on purpose so they could put the screws to us later.

So far in 13 years of ownership MVC has kept every agreement they've made with me. I've had some marginally knowledgeable sales reps at presentations over the years but the folks I bought from never told me anything that turned out to be false. The folks I've spoken with at HQ have been forthright and patient in handling and business I've had with them. I tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt until they show they don't deserve it. So far MVC has enhanced my ownership not detracted from it so when they omit something I'll just assume it's not because they are trying to pull a fast one on me.


----------



## jimf41 (Mar 25, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> Here are a few things.  Note also that in our my-vacationclub.com accounts, the field for DC Point values of enrolled Weeks is notated as, "*Current* MVC Election Value" (bolding is mine.)



I see nothing new here. This just says that they can adjust the points allocated to an owner the same way they can adjust the points required to book at a resort. The issue of changing the amount of points allocated to a specific resort was cleared up very soon after they started the DC program. They can change any point value any way they want to address demand but they can't change the total points allocated or required at any resort.


----------



## bogey21 (Mar 26, 2015)

Frisbeeace said:


> Easiest way out is to sell.



Exactly what I did many years ago as I saw the direction Marriott was going.  Note that Marriott quality was never the issue.  It was their unfair treatment of Owners that caused me to jump ship.  I'm surprised more aren't doing the same.

George


----------



## DB-Wis (Mar 26, 2015)

When I first bought my two weeks from Marriott 11 years again, the option of turning in a week for MR points seemed like a great idea.  But I almost immediately realized that the points I would get for turning in a two-bedroom villas were not close to being enough for a seven-night stay in a single room Residence Inn unit.  In other words, it was no nowhere close to being an "apples to apples" trade.  

After making that realization, I have never seriously considered exchanging a week for MR points.  I don't dispute that the value of MR points has decreased over the time I've been an owner (making the discrepancy in value even more pronounced), but it never made any sense to me to exchange for MR points.


----------



## JIMinNC (Mar 26, 2015)

bogey21 said:


> Exactly what I did many years ago as I saw the direction Marriott was going.  Note that Marriott quality was never the issue.  It was their unfair treatment of Owners that caused me to jump ship.  I'm surprised more aren't doing the same.
> 
> George



More aren't doing the same because the program is meeting their needs. 

We are recent converts to Marriott from another system and can say Marriott is way ahead of our old ownership in virtually every way. While some of the changes made over the years may have been a negative for more traditional timeshare owners, we became Marriott owners because of the flexibility offered by the new programs. We really have the best of both worlds now - the flexibility of the points system, but if we find a resort we want to visit annually, we can still buy a cost effective resale week at that Marriott resort.


----------



## Frisbeeace (Apr 4, 2015)

Some people remind me to this neighbor living in the ground floor of a building who doesn't care about the elevators condition. The trade for Marriott Rewards option must remain fully operational and fair for the minority (?) of owners who really need it regardless if you use it or not.


----------

