# For those who think points are no big deal



## pacheco18 (Oct 12, 2007)

I am fortunate to have a ton of points from purchases, referrals of friends and my Marriott credit card and I just booked a trip to Romania and Hungary for next year using points.

270k points got me the Marriotts in Bucharest and Budapest (i had to get a package plus because of the splt between the 2 countries) and 100k Delta miles (I need 90K miles for each business class ticket).  I added my own Delta miles to the deal (luckily I have tons of those too) and I now have two business class tickets -- which cost $8000 each!  I also have the option of a open jaw -- stopping anywhere else in Europe on the way home or on the way there.

I understand the benefits of buying resale and for most people it makes sense.  But if you want to travel outside the timeshare world from time to time and you want to travel in style, then all those points are a really wonderful option.


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## pwrshift (Oct 12, 2007)

Couldn't agree with you more.  There comes a time in life when you want to do some travel that you might not have been able to do while raising a family and it becomes payback time.  And for that, I don't mean sitting back in the economy section with some stranger snoring on my neck.  

The best bargain on a cost/value basis of FF miles is with business class air (on a two class airline) which sometimes costs 5 times more than an economy fare -- but only about 60% more than the economy FF miles needed.  And for that, you get admission to their lounges, priority baggage handling, considerably more comfortable seating, better meals and a nicer environment.  

Brian




pacheco18 said:


> ... if you want to travel outside the timeshare world from time to time and you want to travel in style, then all those points are a really wonderful option.


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## Dave M (Oct 12, 2007)

Absolutely! Marriott Rewards points are a huge deal. The challenge, for those of us who want to accumulate and use them in the way you have related, is finding the most economical way to obtain them. Sometimes that means buying a timeshare from Marriott. Often it involves buying points directly from Marriott.


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## Bill4728 (Oct 12, 2007)

Dave M said:


> Sometimes that means buying a timeshare from Marriott. Often it involves buying points directly from Marriott.



Remember that anyone can buy reward points direct from Marriott at a $625/ 50,000 points/year. This is without owning a Marriott TS or giving up use of your TS.


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## jerseyfinn (Oct 12, 2007)

MRPs are not for everyone. But for folks who enjoy destination travel and who possess a flexible, relativistic world view, those MRPs are a gift from the travel gods waiting to be accumulated and utilized.

Actually our TS ownership and the learning curve of Marriott TS and travel in general gave my wife and I an enlightened view of destination travel. In addition to our TS travels, we began doing long weekend runs to London and elsewhere in Europe to build up FF miles and elite status with an airline. The miles pile up and the MRPs accumulate as we roll all of it into one big string of destination trips each year enjoying the perks of an elite FFer. And along the way we do a few travel packages to enhance our travel.

I don't sit down and calculate cost per point or per mile. It's about what we can do with the points in the aggregate. It may not be everyone's defintion of how to travel, but it damned sure works for us. Presently sitting on 2.5 mil MRPs. The only reason we don't tap them at present is we're so wrapped up in our present travel schemes (and we work full time ) that we don't have the time to work the points into our travels. But we're patient folks and we will indeed use those points one day.

In the mean time, we keep on doing our travel thing. At present this means two TS trips to Spain each year ( just finishing up 2 weeks in Costa del Sol, our second visit of the year ) along with those long weekend trips which this year took us to London twice and once to Barcelona. Also throw in some time at Ocean Pointe. If there's a negative, it's that we couldn't stay at a Marriott in BCN. But we're piling up MRPs as well as scads of FF miles. As Brian suggests, business seats are the way to go (or miles for UGs ).

But it all began with Marriott TS. So Pacheco, you have yourself a great time enjoying the fruits of your ownership and your travels. Marriott TS can work any way you want it to.

Barry


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## short (Oct 12, 2007)

*You can also buy miles directly from airlines.*



Bill4728 said:


> Remember that anyone can buy reward points direct from Marriott at a $625/ 50,000 points/year. This is without owning a Marriott TS or giving up use of your TS.



You can also buy miles directly from airlines.  Annual purchase quantities are limited but a regular purchase program will get you to the same place.  90,000 miles for a BC ticket at 2.5 cents per mile on the average makes a BC seat worth about $2,250.  If you have to double down to get a full fare changeable ticket it still would be $4,500 max.  Valuing airtravel and hotels at rack rate overstates the value of Marriott reward packages.  That is not to say Marriott reward packages do not have value but just that most folks overstate the value.

I just returned from Oslo/Stockholm to LAX on a business class ticket for $3,500.  A 7 night stay in a nice room at the Radisson Royal Viking averaged $250 per night including breakfast with AAA rates and varying room rates.  Less for Sat. night and gradually increasing by Tue. night.

So if this were a package deal it would be $250 * 7 = $1750 plus 2 BC tickets at $2250 each for $4500 for airfare.  Total value would have been $6,250 for a package such as this would be a more appropriate valuation.

If you buy a timeshare for $25000 the lost interest at 5 percent($1250) plus maint. fees ($1250) plus deprec.(????) means you shoud get trip like this with 2 years worth of points for it to be a average value.  If you are spending more Marriott points than 2 years worth than that it starts to look like a poor value.

Short


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## winger (Oct 12, 2007)

after much thinking and reading and TUG advice, my wife and I purchased directly from Marriott just for the concept of flexibility with points.  Stories from the likes of Master Powershift and others was the deciding point to spend the extra cash now to buy us more flexibility later.  The only thing that is disturbing is the depreciation of points where Marriott does not increase the amt of pts a exchanged when you give up your annual TS week as they increase amt of pts required to stay at their hotels (by form of increasing hotel's category levels).


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## Kagehitokiri (Oct 12, 2007)

while i personally only care about starwood points, marriott is the only program that comes close to starwood in terms of earning airline miles from hotel stays.

you can also redeem for stays at ritz carlton and other partners.

and i think its also the second largest chain after intercontinental.

definitely some great features.


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## billymach4 (Oct 12, 2007)

To the OP congratulations 

However earned you in one shape or form have had to pay for those points. They are a form of currency in the form of Marriott points as we all well know. So long as you are comfortable with this concept I applaud you for leveraging these points into your well deserved vacation!


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## Transit (Oct 12, 2007)

Clever usage of points will get you some good values even with recent devalualtions.It's a statagey game.I love playing


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## tim (Oct 13, 2007)

Transit said:


> Clever usage of points will get you some good values even with recent devalualtions.It's a statagey game.I love playing



I have played the "game" for several years now and also love it as we save big bucks.  Unfortunately, I never get to fly business class as I am trying to get 5 free airline tickets for my entire family.  To maximize our value, we always try to do a 3 legged trip.  For example, one summer we flew from Chicago to Sweden (for 1 week) then to Germany (for two weeks) then back to Chicago.  That 3 stop ticket would have cost us $1800 per person.  I could never had paid $9000 for my family just in transportation costs.  Indeed, we would not have gone on the trip but for the free miles from Marriott.  I ended up using about 460,000 Marriott points, but got the free 5 airline tickets and two rooms at a nice Marriott property in Germany for a week (about a $3000 value).  Considering what we spent to acquire the Marriott points, the trip turned out to be a great deal for us.


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## pacheco18 (Oct 13, 2007)

Bill4728 said:


> Remember that anyone can buy reward points direct from Marriott at a $625/ 50,000 points/year. This is without owning a Marriott TS or giving up use of your TS.



FYi -- 50k points does not get you much in the way of miles on Delta (eg).  You need about 120k points to get 50k miles and then you need to add 40k miles to it to get a business class ticket to Europe.   I am almost convinced that it might be worth exchanging a timeshare for points one year, get the 120k points and use the 50k miles that would give me toward another business class ticket.  Even with MFs at $1000, if the exchange helps me get an $8000 ticket I am still ahead of the "game."


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## Cobra1950 (Oct 14, 2007)

Just got back from travelling in China for two weeks.  The better part of the stay was in Marriotts, including the brand new Renaissance in Shanghai.  Using points, cost for lodging was $0 in one of the nicest hotels I have been in.


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## pwrshift (Oct 14, 2007)

People seem to forget that it takes a while to 'earn' 110,000 MR points with hotel stays and credit card purchases ... and you need 250k-270k MR points for a Cat6 or 7 pkg with 120,000 FF miles. For Europe on biz class you really need 2 pkgs for 2 weeks and biz class for two ... thus 500k to 540k MR points. Getting that many points takes some planning and a couple of years or more for most people. But the rewards are worth patience.

Forgetting elite bonus points, at 2000 MR points for a $200 a night hotel stay, to 'earn' 540k MR points takes 270 stays, say over 2 years...pretty tough to do for non-business travel. If you have 2 weeks you can turn in for 110k MR points a year you'll still need to 'earn' 100,000 more MR points (540-440) over those two years ... or to buying them from Marriott. That's a lot of points pretty quickly but there's a cost for sure -- 4 maint/taxes, fees, and loss of use (although you do get 2 luxury hotel weeks back for your Cat 7 certificate stays) and the cost of any points you might buy.

The balancing factor is not figuring out what 'free' trips you get, but what 'value' you get for your investment. If economy flights to Italy cost $1000 and biz class costs $4000 you can see the difference in value, comfort, prestige, etc. If you would stay in a 3 star hotel to save money but could stay in a 5 star on points you see another 'value' and savings over what cash it would take to do so.

That's why I have 2 of my 6 weeks traded in for points EY to replenish points I've used and at the same time still have more weeks for TS travel than I can personally use, especially with AC's from II. It was part of my plan to maximize the use of MR points and IMO a true benefit of the Marriott direct purchase plan for me. And that plan doesn't include staying in a Residence Inn on points for a couple of nights and/or not trading points for air/hotel pkgs where the best value comes.

Everyone has different holiday objectives -- early in life we do it all for our kids but when they leave the nest it's often time for a change, and the Marriott program provides that - not free, for sure, but by maximizing value you can travel in a way you might never have believed possible if paying 'cash'.  Special occasions, honeymoons, anniversaries, graduations, etc., would cost a ton of money otherwise - to the point many people will economize instead.

Brian


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## luv2vacation (Oct 14, 2007)

I have followed this thread avidly.  I am new to TUG (only a month) but have been timesharing for over 10 years.  I love staying in TS, but now that my kids are grown, I would like to branch out.  We have found that the last couple of years, we stay exclusively at Marriotts (TS & hotels -Hubby is very brand loyal).  I was looking to buy another Marriott week and since finding TUG, decided to go resale -since I have never traded my OP for points, thus saw the great value in resale.  

However, since reading this thread, I am starting to rethink this position and might buy another developer week - something that would get me an AC and has good trading power for when I trade with II and something with low MF and a high points value for when I trade to Marriott for points.  

I like to stay in very nice hotels, usually eat out when on vacation (for dinner anyway), and am looking to travel all over US and Carribbean (still trying to talk Hubby into overseas - but might never get there.  

So I have a question for the experienced point users:  Do you think that, wanting to travel this way (just domestic and islands), it would make sense to spend the extra $12-13K for someplace like Manor Club sequel?  (I'm only in my forties so have lots of years to build those points still!)


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## pacheco18 (Oct 14, 2007)

Depends On A Couple Of Things -- Especially The Difference Between Resale And Developer Price -- Which Varies From Ts To Ts

Also Consider Whether Traveling Business Class To Europe Is Important To You -- It Is To Us -- When Each Ticket Is Worth Around 7k - 8k And You Get An Open Jaw And Add A City --  You Can Do The Math For Yourself And See If It's Worth It.  Planning And Using Points Is Always Easier If You Have Ff Miles Of Your Own To Couple With The Points Deals.

I'm Sure Other Points Users Will Chime In On This


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## brp (Oct 25, 2007)

jerseyfinn said:


> Actually our TS ownership and the learning curve of Marriott TS and travel in general gave my wife and I an enlightened view of destination travel. In addition to our TS travels, we began doing long weekend runs to London and elsewhere in Europe to build up FF miles and elite status with an airline. The miles pile up and the MRPs accumulate as we roll all of it into one big string of destination trips each year enjoying the perks of an elite FFer. And along the way we do a few travel packages to enhance our travel.



We are in precisely the same situation. We fly American Airlines and maintain top status. Part of this is by taking long weekends to Europe, South America or the Caribbean, coupled with regular domestic weekends. As we pay for these flights to maintain status (and employ the tricks to get good deals and upgrades) we would use the MRPs for the hotels. We currently have Starwood points (and a Starwood CC for me) and have used those to offset 450-550 €/night hotels in Italy, for example). In this case, it may be worth the extra cost to buy from a developer with EY points exchange privilege...provided that the upfront points package is good as well.

Cheers.


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## pwrshift (Oct 25, 2007)

If you are buying to build points I would consider buying MMC rather than MSE (price difference) or Legend's Edge -- if they both still have the points EY deal that was in some other thread a while back.  That way you get the lowest priced MF and the max number of points.  I'm guessing the price was just under $20k with bonus points upfront and EY trading...so it's not really another $12k over resale.

Trading a resort like OP for points is not as good a deal as the annual MF is too high and you enjoy using the resort every year.  I have the same thing with BP now as its MF is too high to make trading for points worthwhile.  Over time, because the amount of points you can get that way is fixed and the MF is not, they will all become less advantageous for trading for points ... other than it's a nice option if you need to cancel for some reason (illness) and can someday use the MR points.  If I traded all my weeks in one year I'd get almost 600,000 MR points for about $5000 in MF.  In return, I could get a biz class trip for two to Europe for two weeks in Cat 7 hotels which would certainly cost more than that.  Europe iis where you'd see the greatest cost/benefit value cash vs points, more than the islands or domestic, but there are still good savings either way.

I guess what I'm saying is that the MR point system is a nice benefit now if you use it but it might not be as good a benefit in 20 years time, and there will over time be a devaluation of the points for sure.  Live for today.

Brian



luv2vacation said:


> ...However, since reading this thread, I am starting to rethink this position and might buy another developer week - something that would get me an AC and has good trading power for when I trade with II and something with low MF and a high points value for when I trade to Marriott for points.
> 
> I like to stay in very nice hotels, usually eat out when on vacation (for dinner anyway), and am looking to travel all over US and Carribbean (still trying to talk Hubby into overseas - but might never get there.
> 
> So I have a question for the experienced point users: Do you think that, wanting to travel this way (just domestic and islands), it would make sense to spend the extra $12-13K for someplace like Manor Club sequel? (I'm only in my forties so have lots of years to build those points still!)


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## winger (Oct 25, 2007)

beside cost diff between msc and mmc, mmc gives more pts I think. 

note it's been reported MMC MF jumped 18.5% for 2008. this on top another double digit increast for 2007. Looking like trading in MMC for pts is beginnging to look 'not too attractive' very fast


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## Big Matt (Oct 25, 2007)

Where was this reported?  

Was there any rationale for the increase?



winger said:


> note it's been reported MMC MF jumped 18.5% for 2008.


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## KathyPet (Oct 25, 2007)

We have found great pleasure in our points over the last few years.  our only child is on her own now and my husband and I are much more interested in traveling to other countries for vacations.We want to stay in the major cities not in a T/S 45 miles away.  Our points allow us to do that.  Also we are now just reaching retirement age.  I can no longer deal with flights of 6 hours or more stuffed into a coach class seat.  Our points allow us to go business class (does anyone have any idea how much a business class ticket costs to purchase it outright?  They are very expensive.)  Our points allow us to do that.  Those nosayers who see no value in points always trot out their examples of how much it would cost to pay cash for the vacations people take using points but they always calculate the costs using coach tickets and then try to convince people that the points are not worth the extra costs of buying from Marriott.  Those who buy resale better be sure that they are always going to want to stay in a timeshare no matter where they go or what age they reach.    As for me give me my points!


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## Transit (Oct 25, 2007)

pwrshift said:


> I guess what I'm saying is that the MR point system is a nice benefit now if you use it but it might not be as good a benefit in 20 years time, and there will over time be a devaluation of the points for sure.  Live for today.



This is a realistic veiw on any hotel based TS point system. I veiw these points as side benefit to my ownership week and credit card use I don't think I would go out and buy a developer unit simply for the points benefit. During lean times (or anytime they please) airlines and hotels could devaluate these points to uselessness.


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## brp (Oct 25, 2007)

In using he points for airline award tickets, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Business class tickets are quite a bit more to purchase than coach.

For some (us included), we buy coach tickets and receive free upgrade certificates from American Airlines based on our status. Thus, we get to Business that way.

Then the question becomes- does the value of the points outweigh the cost of the MF, and some amortized value of the property purchase price, i.e. would it have been cheaper to pay for the hotel than the MF + property cost fraction? I think that creative use of the points can make this be the case- use them in high cost places such as Europe, and not for cheaper places where more points can be accumulated. But I don't think it's a given.

Then there is the point mentioned above about points devaluation. As points-based hotel programs change, it can require more points in the future to stay at the same place. The points awarded for the TS trade, though, are fixed. And the MF increase. So, it is costing more per point, and they are potentially less valuable.

Not disagreeing with your basic point at all...just something to think about.

Cheers.


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## winger (Oct 25, 2007)

Big Matt said:


> Where was this reported?
> 
> Was there any rationale for the increase?


see this thread http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56948 towards bottom of first page.

Not 100% sure on accuracy but a Tugger reported it.  I know last Fri, MVCI did not have these figures. I do not know the breakdown


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## wuv pooh (Oct 25, 2007)

winger said:


> see this thread http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56948 towards bottom of first page.
> 
> Not 100% sure on accuracy but a Tugger reported it.  I know last Fri, MVCI did not have these figures. I do not know the breakdown



It is published on the vacation club website.  No detailed breakdown, but $845.  That is a 33% increase in 2 years   

The GM will have some explaining to do when I arrive next week.


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## rsackett (Oct 25, 2007)

winger said:


> see this thread http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56948 towards bottom of first page.
> 
> Not 100% sure on accuracy but a Tugger reported it.  I know last Fri, MVCI did not have these figures. I do not know the breakdown



I checked on vacationclub.com and the amount is correct!  No breakdown was given on the website.  I am VERY disapointed in this increase! 

Ray


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## winger (Oct 25, 2007)

wuv pooh said:


> It is published on the vacation club website.  No detailed breakdown, but $845.  That is a 33% increase in 2 years
> 
> The GM will have some explaining to do when I arrive next week.


Seek out the HOA officers, not the GM if you can. also see if you can post the minutes from the latest board mtg and the breakdown of the MF.

See if u can also get your hands on MMC owner contact info, phone #, email, addys, etc. Maybe we can do something about ousting board members if we are not satisfied with reasons behind the 33% increase


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## johnmfaeth (Oct 25, 2007)

Not to discourage Marriott points but if you have the Amex Platinum card and buy one business class ticket through the Amex travel agency, the companion ticket is free.

The wife had a week long business trip to Basel Switzerland a few years back. I tagged along with a free business class roundtrip and free lodging. We spent the next 9 days exploring Switzerland together. Those 9 extra days only cost us a rental car (with corporate discount), food, and (highly discounted) corporate hotel rates at 5 star hotels. One of the best vacations of my life. 

Planned correctly, it's a great way for anyone who does business travel to bring along the DH - in my case


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## thinze3 (Oct 25, 2007)

American Express runs specials every now and then to promote their Cards. This is not an ongoing thing. Now they are offering 50% bonus for converting Amex points to certain Hotels points, like Hhonors and others. This one is good through November. Sometimes you buy a Amex travel card or a Travel & Liesure subscription and get a companion ticket. 

There is still no deal like getting a great Marriott branded room for about half price using reward points. IMO





johnmfaeth said:


> Not to discourage Marriott points but if you have the Amex Platinum card and buy one business class ticket through the Amex travel agency, the companion ticket is free.
> 
> The wife had a week long business trip to Basel Switzerland a few years back. I tagged along with a free business class roundtrip and free lodging. We spent the next 9 days exploring Switzerland together. Those 9 extra days only cost us a rental car (with corporate discount), food, and (highly discounted) corporate hotel rates at 5 star hotels. One of the best vacations of my life.
> 
> Planned correctly, it's a great way for anyone who does business travel to bring along the DH - in my case


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## BocaBum99 (Oct 25, 2007)

Under what scenarios does it make sense economically to have these Marriott Reward points.  It seems to me that saving the money upfront, investing it and paying cash for airline tickets or cheap hotels would be a much better value.


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## Transit (Oct 25, 2007)

BocaBum99 said:


> Under what scenarios does it make sense economically to have these Marriott Reward points.  It seems to me that saving the money upfront, investing it and paying cash for airline tickets or cheap hotels would be a much better value.



If you own a hotel based TS you get an addition option besides internal trade and exchange companies of exchanging your week for  points for hotel and airfare travel .Points can also be obtained by credit card spending with bonuses for using the brands card at thier resorts and business partners. My yearly spending average use gets me usually a 5 night stay in a hotel room that costs approximently 300-600 a night.I normaly would not spend this much on a room but with points you can splurge a little and if you wanted to be economical you can get more nights by using a lower catagory hotel.I applied for the Marriott Rewards Vista card simply because I can earn a few nights a year and get discounted rooms when I need them by being in their program. For me this complements my Starwood account which uses Amex. Any avid traveler should be involved with some kind of points program.As for paying cash for airline tickets or cheap hotels most only take cards now so you might as well earn some free travel.


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## BocaBum99 (Oct 26, 2007)

short said:


> You can also buy miles directly from airlines.  Annual purchase quantities are limited but a regular purchase program will get you to the same place.  90,000 miles for a BC ticket at 2.5 cents per mile on the average makes a BC seat worth about $2,250.  If you have to double down to get a full fare changeable ticket it still would be $4,500 max.  Valuing airtravel and hotels at rack rate overstates the value of Marriott reward packages.  That is not to say Marriott reward packages do not have value but just that most folks overstate the value.
> 
> I just returned from Oslo/Stockholm to LAX on a business class ticket for $3,500.  A 7 night stay in a nice room at the Radisson Royal Viking averaged $250 per night including breakfast with AAA rates and varying room rates.  Less for Sat. night and gradually increasing by Tue. night.
> 
> ...



I agree with this analysis.  I think people who justify purchasing from the developer due to the points they get and can convert to hotel rooms and airline tickets are overinflating the value they are actually receiving.

If someone is valuing a hotel room at $300-$600 per night, then the Villa they turned in should be valued at $900-$1800 per night.

I don't see how points for airline tickets makes sense.  The hotel chain needs to purchase the tickets from the airline.  So, unless they are getting a huge discount for buying in volume, I don't see the value there.  On the hotel side, it could make sense since the hotel has excess capacity that it can use to offer to certain owners at a discount rate.  However, priceline or such services can probably yield a worthwhile discount as well.  If there are black out dates, then what owners are getting is spare capcity.  Good deal, yes, but I doubt a real apples to apples comparison will prove in.


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## brp (Oct 26, 2007)

BocaBum99 said:


> If someone is valuing a hotel room at $300-$600 per night, then the Villa they turned in should be valued at $900-$1800 per night.



I'm not sure where your numbers come from. I see it like this:

Let's say the MF is $1000/year. Let's also say that the unit costs $20,000 (to have round numbers). Let's amortize this over 20 years of travel. In this case, the time share costs $2000/year. So, if the points can net a week's stay worth at least $285/night, that's a break even. If the hotel room would cost more, it's a net plus.

Of course, this is very much simplified as the MF will surely rise, and the same number of points may yield less value in the future...but I think the basic idea is sound.

Cheers.


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## Hoc (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, you can go to some pretty interesting places with points.  The question is whether the purchase of a new Marriott Timeshare plus annual fees plus trading costs plus the time spent finding and planning the trip winds up costing more than it would have cost you to get the same trip in another manner.

As a disclaimer, I bought close to a million MRPs when Marriott was selling them for a penny a point, because that is my estimate of their approximate value.

But here is an example of a trip I just booked another way for probably about the same or less than it would have cost you to get those points:

One week at the Allen House in London From July 12-19;
One week at the Hotel Napoleon in Paris (about a block from the Arc de Triomphe) from July 19-26;
One week in Barcelona at the Hotel Palacete Continental (tentative - will change if I find a better deal and place) from July 26-August 1.

Round trip, first class air on Alaska (LAX-Vancouver), then British Air (Vancouver-London, London-Paris), then American Air (Barcelona-London-LAX).  Still debating on whether to take a low-cost carrier from Paris-Barcelona or the night train with a sleeper car.

Cost: 
Allen House: about $800 in annual fees; plus another $180 as one-tenth of my purchase price;
Hotel Napoleon: about $1,000 for annual fees and purchase of additional RHC points to get booking (purchase price of original points package is negligible -- about $90 a year spread over 10 years, including cost of transfer of ownership);
Hotel Continental Palacete: about $500, including a 24-hour, all-you-can-eat hot and cold buffet (so, like an all-inclusive, but probably will be used for breakfasts and fast lunches only, since food in Spain is so amazing that I couldn't see eating at the hotel all the time).

Airfare: used miles accumulated at an average of 1 cent a mile, so $2,500 for the two first class tickets, plus taxes of $139 each.  And I tend to accumulate miles at a rate of about 200,000 a year through credit card purchases, flights, restaurant dining through rewardsnetwork, and bonuses, so it's not difficult to accumulate more.

So, total cost for a three-week trip during peak season in London, Paris and Barcelona, plus First Class Round Trip Air is $5,258 for two.  An additional $78 for the two of us if we fly Ryanair or EasyJet from Paris to Barcelona, or an additional $290 for the two of us ($356 fare, less $70 for the night in Barcelona) if we choose to take a sleeper car on the night train instead. 

Now, Brian's analysis shows that his use of MRPs would cost $5,000 for only two weeks and business class.  So, my use of cash and a little creative use of timeshares and points/miles means I save probably about a third over the cost of using MRPs.

Not that use of MRPs is not at times valuable.  They can be useful.  It's just important not to oversell their value.  If I were to look at rack rates for my trip next summer, the value of what I got for $5,258 is $32,500, so I saved more than $27,000 by buying resale and using cash, rather than buying through Marriott and using points.

But the truth is that, if you are just a bit resourceful, you can get a good deal in many ways.


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## Big Matt (Oct 26, 2007)

The break even will rise also because the hotel prices will rise over time.



brp said:


> Of course, this is very much simplified as the MF will surely rise, and the same number of points may yield less value in the future...but I think the basic idea is sound.
> 
> Cheers.


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## Zac495 (Oct 26, 2007)

luv2vacation said:


> I have followed this thread avidly.  I am new to TUG (only a month) but have been timesharing for over 10 years.  I love staying in TS, but now that my kids are grown, I would like to branch out.  We have found that the last couple of years, we stay exclusively at Marriotts (TS & hotels -Hubby is very brand loyal).  I was looking to buy another Marriott week and since finding TUG, decided to go resale -since I have never traded my OP for points, thus saw the great value in resale.
> 
> However, since reading this thread, I am starting to rethink this position and might buy another developer week - something that would get me an AC and has good trading power for when I trade with II and something with low MF and a high points value for when I trade to Marriott for points.
> 
> ...




I'm new to the point game - but if you already own Marriott - you can get a deal from the developer. I  got Manor Club EY 110,000 pts for 19,500. I got a lot of incentive points. I also own Aruba (resale purchase) and Hilton (resale). Hilton you can buy resale and use points anyway (just hotel). 

I am very happy we bought our one developer purchase - can't wait to use it in 2010. Doing Spain and Aruba for 2 years with the resale ARuba, and will have tons of miles by then .

We "finance." Not via Marriott - sheesh - 13% though I HAD to finance with them for 3 months. But we use a line of credit rather than pull from IRA funds etc. My line of credit is 4%. Yes, I have the money to pay it off immediately should the interest go up. Maybe we should just pay - but for us it makes sense to pay a little per month - kind of like saving for the vacations.


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## Cathyb (Oct 26, 2007)

bocabum: I have to put my 2 cents in:  When using points to stay in international chains of Marriott and Westin, you avoid the horrendous extra charges that usually apply and also avoid the 'weak dollar syndrome'.


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## thinze3 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Zac495*

We did the exact same thing as you. We owned two resale timeshares and decided to buy Legends Edge for an occasional use, but mainly for the Marriott Rewards Points program. We were already active MR points users.

I wanted to take it to the next level, i.e., first class air and wonderful hotels at huge discounts. I have yet to do this, but with the help of reading posts of tuggers like *pwrshift, RLG *and others, I plan on taking a very expensive trip soon enough using MR points.


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## mjs (Oct 26, 2007)

When Marriott was recently selling points for a penny a point, I hesitantly bought points just prior to the deadline.  I was not sure how or when I would use them.
This week I booked Paris Marriott Hotel Champs-Elysees for an anniversary celebration without the kids.  Standard room rack rate was over $800 per night.  
Reserved direct flights to Paris.
I only wish I had bought MORE points.  All of my Marriotts are resale.
Mark


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## brp (Oct 26, 2007)

Hoc said:


> Yes, you can go to some pretty interesting places with points.  The question is whether the purchase of a new Marriott Timeshare plus annual fees plus trading costs plus the time spent finding and planning the trip winds up costing more than it would have cost you to get the same trip in another manner.
> 
> As a disclaimer, I bought close to a million MRPs when Marriott was selling them for a penny a point, because that is my estimate of their approximate value.
> 
> ...



The actual use of the timeshares themselves works well if one travels in weeks. We, for example, travel in long weekends. Some home timeshares do allow splitting the week, but the traded ones typically do not.

For travel in smaller chunks, the points approach may be the most viable way to go.

Cheers.


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## brp (Oct 26, 2007)

mjs said:


> When Marriott was recently selling points for a penny a point...



Is this something that they do often/periodically...or was it a one-time thing?

Cheers.


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## MikeM132 (Oct 26, 2007)

Hey, all you Manor Club owners have been bragging about your low maint fees for so long....Marriott must have read this and jacked them up to comparable levels.


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## winger (Oct 26, 2007)

MikeM132 said:


> Hey, all you Manor Club owners have been bragging about your low maint fees for so long....Marriott must have read this and jacked them up to comparable levels.


MF's are supposed to be controlled by HOA (and the Board).  Now if members of the HOA board of directors are Marriott's B*&$%@'s, then we cannot do anything. But owners do have control who is voted onto the Board.

It will be nice to check the 'comparables' after all 2008 MF's are in - in terms of how Manor compares relative to everyone else in 2008 vs. prior years.

For example, if Manor's 2007 MF was 15% below resort A's 2007 MF, how does it compare for 2008 MF's.


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## Hoc (Oct 26, 2007)

brp said:


> Is this something that they do often/periodically...or was it a one-time thing?



Most likely a one-time thing.  Anyway, I assumed it was.  That's why I bought so many.  Also gave me the opportunity to buy my way up to Lifetime status with AA, using the Marriott package, at about 1.2 cents a mile.

My calculations were: $2,500 for 250,000 points= 120k miles plus 1 week at a cat. 6 hotel.  Value of a cat. 6 hotel for a week is about $1,050.  Thus, $1,450 for 120,000 AA miles.  Just about 1.2 cents per mile.


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## Hoc (Oct 26, 2007)

brp said:


> The actual use of the timeshares themselves works well if one travels in weeks.



Yes, but at the cost you pay for Marriott points, it is often just as inexpensive, or more so, to book an entire week at a weeks timeshare, and only stay some of the nights, then book another week elsewhere and stay some of the nights.  If I had wanted, I could have flown into Barcelona, say, July 12, up to London on July 16, over to Paris on July 19, and out on July 22, at the same $5,258, and still gotten the first class tickets.  thus, a 2-week vacation plus first class at about the same as the cost of a 2-week vacation using Marriott points, and only flying business class.  And 3 cities instead of 2.

That does not take into account the fact that I could have booked partial weeks at Hotel Napoleon in Paris for less using my timeshare, fewer days at the hotel in Barcelona at a lower price and I think I do have the ability to split my Allen House week.

In other words, MRP are useful, but they are not a panacea and getting and using them does tend to cost more than many want to believe.


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## brp (Oct 26, 2007)

Hoc said:


> Most likely a one-time thing.  Anyway, I assumed it was.  That's why I bought so many.  Also gave me the opportunity to buy my way up to Lifetime status with AA, using the Marriott package, at about 1.2 cents a mile.
> 
> My calculations were: $2,500 for 250,000 points= 120k miles plus 1 week at a cat. 6 hotel.  Value of a cat. 6 hotel for a week is about $1,050.  Thus, $1,450 for 120,000 AA miles.  Just about 1.2 cents per mile.



You should be flying for that status...and spending more time on FT 

Cheers.


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## pwrshift (Oct 26, 2007)

The 1 cent per point was a very short lived chance, and I think a mistake that was quickly eliminated.

However, even MMC at $845 MF and 104 fee still gives you those 110,000 points for about 1 cent each.  So for now, it's still a good deal - just not as good as deal as last year -- or the year before.  

Hoc .. good to see you contesting points again.  When I'm away, I find my 'wants' are different from timesharing.  I confess to enjoy not having to make my bed, having a turn-down chocolates, ordering room service, taking an elevator to the major attractions and restaurants right in the centre of world class cities, etc.  Guess I'm spoiled.  

Brian


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## Hoc (Oct 26, 2007)

pwrshift said:


> However, even MMC at $845 MF and 104 fee still gives you those 110,000 points for about 1 cent each.  So for now, it's still a good deal - just not as good as deal as last year -- or the year before.



That eliminates consideration of the purchase price of the timeshare from the developer.



pwrshift said:


> Hoc .. good to see you contesting points again.  When I'm away, I find my 'wants' are different from timesharing.  I confess to enjoy not having to make my bed, having a turn-down chocolates, ordering room service, taking an elevator to the major attractions and restaurants right in the centre of world class cities, etc.  Guess I'm spoiled.



Brian--

I do think that points have their place.  Just a little lower place than you do.  Remember that I still get turn-down chocolates, room service, elevators and steps to major attractions in the center of the city, etc. with many of my timeshares (like the Paris one above).

And, of course, I've still been pretty handy at finding top-notch hotels for less than $150 a night all over the world.  Last year, it was the Intercontinental Hotels, many of which ran 2-for-1 specials for most of the year.  I stayed at the Intercontinental in Vienna for $150/night, in Bangkok for $125/night, had the opportunity to stay at the Intercontinental in Prague for $78 a night (but went really cheap and stayed at an apartment for much less -- probably should have opted for the Intercontinental), all on the Executive floor which included breakfast, high tea, cocktails and horsd'oeurves, as well as all-day snacks, turndown, chocolates, and a lot of the other top-notch amenities.

This year, Diamond status at the Hiltons always gets me upgraded to suites, even at the lowest rates, along with free food and amenities.

In addition, the occasional Priceline Hotel bargain still exists, and I do take advantage of them.

So, my whole trip to London, Prague and Vienna last fall, which was a combination of Priceline, Intercontinental, Hilton, etc., involved quite a bit of luxury, and still wound up costing around $3,000 for 2 1/2 weeks, including airfare (paid for coach and upgraded to business with certificates):
London: Thistle Marble Arch Hotel: 4 nights@$48/night via Priceline
Prague: Hilton for first night@ ~$162 (stayed on Executive level and included breakfast, etc.); Fox Apartments: 5 nights@$46/nt.
Vienna: Intercontinental Vienna: 6 nights@$150/nt.

1-night Stopover in Boston on Return (for the fall colors): Boston Hilton Financial District@$62/nt. via Priceline

Total round trip airfare: $542 + certificates for upgrade.

So, the out-of-pocket cash for the trip (excluding some meals) was $2,088.  

Even if you ascribe a $500 each value to the upgrade certificates (I got them for free for crossing the 1 million mile mark on AA), the total cost is still around $3,000.

And this was all luxury, all the way (except for the 5 nights in Prague).

I know that you could have done the same type of trip with MRPs, but probably at the same cost or higher.

So, I don't contest points.  Just that they are a particularly good deal.  They are one of many ways to get some very nice trips, but not the cheapest way to do it and not the only way to do it at that price.


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## thinze3 (Oct 28, 2007)

*Hoc*

WOW!

Here's the only thing I see wrong with your trip:
Priceline
Diamond status at Hilton
Stopover in Boston
Fox Apartments in Prague
Certs for business/first upgrades

Everything else seems just fine.


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## Hoc (Oct 29, 2007)

thinze3 said:


> WOW!
> 
> Here's the only thing I see wrong with your trip:
> Priceline
> ...



Yes, it's true.  If you compare points with rack rate on airfares and hotel rooms, points will seem like a great bargain.  But the point is that it is an unfair comparison.  There are so many other ways to get great deals out there, and compared to points, those other ways often involve as much or more luxury at the same or lower prices.  Without having to front $40k for a timeshare and wait 2-6 years for enough points to use them in that way.


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## JimIg23 (Oct 29, 2007)

mjs said:


> When Marriott was recently selling points for a penny a point, I hesitantly bought points just prior to the deadline.  I was not sure how or when I would use them.
> This week I booked Paris Marriott Hotel Champs-Elysees for an anniversary celebration without the kids.  Standard room rack rate was over $800 per night.
> Reserved direct flights to Paris.
> I only wish I had bought MORE points.  All of my Marriotts are resale.
> Mark




This is exactly what we plan to do.  If you dont mind answering, what month did you reserve?  We are planning for next September and wont have the points to book until Dec.


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## mjs (Oct 29, 2007)

JimIg23 said:


> This is exactly what we plan to do.  If you dont mind answering, what month did you reserve?  We are planning for next September and wont have the points to book until Dec.



I booked the end of July 2008. They became available for points about 9 1/2 months prior to the date.
You do NOT need to have all the points to book the room.   You will just need the points available just prior to check in.

Mark


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## JimIg23 (Oct 29, 2007)

mjs said:


> I booked the end of July 2008. They became available for points about 9 1/2 months prior to the date.
> You do NOT need to have all the points to book the room.   You will just need the points available just prior to check in.
> 
> Mark



Thanks Mark!


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## Dave M (Oct 29, 2007)

mjs said:


> You do NOT need to have all the points to book the room.   You will just need the points available just prior to check in.


That's true. But in that case, you can't book at Marriott.com using points. You need to call Marriott to make the reservation.


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## mjs (Oct 29, 2007)

Dave M said:


> That's true. But in that case, you can't book at Marriott.com using points. You need to call Marriott to make the reservation.


Here is what was posted on the website.   ...

Please note that some of the rewards listed below exceed your point balance. 

You may reserve these rooms, but you will need to earn or purchase additional points prior to check-in to redeem these hotel rewards. 

It seemed as though I could reserve on the website, But I  did not follow through with the additional steps needed to see.
Mark


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## Dave M (Oct 29, 2007)

I believe that info is outdated - as of about two weeks ago.

There are a couple of new rules.

First, if you order a stand-alone hotel Reward or a Travel Package Reward, you must make a hotel reservation in connection with that Reward. See post #10 (by "Marriott Concierge", the official Marriott rep to FlyerTalk) in this FlyerTalk thread. 

The second is as I indicated above, plus some related changes. See post #9 by Marriott Concierge in this FlyerTalk thread and see this entire recent TUG thread, especially the first two posts.


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