# Would you keep your membership in RCI if they did not Rent?



## Walt (Feb 22, 2006)

It appears that RCI is renting more and more spacebanked weeks for whatever reason. Just check out the Extra Vacations. I don't want to get into another thread on rentals and the points programs.

It seems that more and more RCI members have drop their membership, are going to drop their membership in RCI, or are thinking about dropping their membership in RCI.

I have 2 questions.

Why have you or why will you be dropping your membership in RCI?

Would you drop your membership in RCI if they were only renting weeks in the 45 day window?  

Walt


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## michelle (Feb 22, 2006)

At this stage, I will not drop RCI due to rentals, as I am still getting exactly what I want through exchanges.

However, I am getting concerned about RCI costs: exchanges, cancellations, insurance, one-plus-ones, Last Minutes and Extra Vacations have all gone up lately!    I still have a few years to go on membership fees, so have no idea how much that is....


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## "Roger" (Feb 22, 2006)

Walt said:
			
		

> ...
> It seems that more and more RCI members have drop their membership, are going to drop their membership in RCI, or are thinking about dropping their membership in RCI....



I want to avoid the very debates that Walt does.  Contrary to what people might think, I have concerns about the ease of renting and the effects that this might have on the value of my timeshare.  (What I don't accept that renting and Points are a single word.  I don't believe for a second that we wouldn't see just as many Extra Vacations from resorts in the Weeks pool if Points had never existed.)

Responding to the sentiment of Walt's post, it doesn't bother me when I see stuff listed in Extra Vacations well in advance when I know that stuff will be available when check in dates approach.  I does bother me to see the stuff available to "outside venders" well in advance.

Putting all of that aside, one factual point.  

RCI membership, end of 2004
3,116,362

RCI membership, end of 2005
3,276,763

(As reported in SEC filings.  Cendant would be in HUGE trouble if these figures were inaccurate.)

In reporting these numbers, I don't mean to imply that the general public is happy with RCI or changes in how RCI operates.  On the other hand, one thing that I see as a created myth on this board is that timeshare owners used to be thrilled with RCI in the old days.  Perhaps it is another created myth on this board, but when I started TUG the going rumor was that about 25% of people who banked weeks never got an exchange at all.


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## Judy (Feb 22, 2006)

*Dropping RCI*

I will be letting my RCI membership expire in June because:
1. Their downward VEP restrictions prevent me from getting the exchanges and Last Chance vacations I want.
2. Their rental program.
3. Their Points program takes vacations out of the weeks exchange inventory.

I wouldn't keep my membership if RCI did away with their rental program unless they also revised their VEP restrictions and Points program so that I would have a fair chance of getting exchanges I want.


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## Dani (Feb 22, 2006)

Roger said:
			
		

> IPutting all of that aside, one factual point.
> 
> RCI membership, end of 2004
> 3,116,362
> ...



  Exactly,

       Contray to popular belief, membership in RCI has increased and not decreased.   

     There are only two reasons for which I would drop my RCI  membership.    First and foremost, its all about the exchanges that I am able to obtain. Period.   If the day comes when I am no longer able to make the exchanges that I feel are appropriate for the week and/or weeks that I own, I will drop my membership.   Thankfully, I continue to obtain the exchanges that I desire.  I would also drop RCI if the cost to exchange increased to the point where it was no longer cost effective to exchange through RCI.  I think that an ever-increasing fee structure is a much bigger danger to their long-term prognosis than rentals ever could be.


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## AwayWeGo (Feb 22, 2006)

*Without RCI, What Would I Do With My Overseas Week & My USA Points?*

In 2002, when we started taking timeshare tours (the 1 we took in Atlantic City in 1975 doesn't count), the sales people pushed RCI & exchanges & bonus weeks & all that.  

Later in 2002, when we actually bought a (resale) timeshare week, we picked a timeshare resort we really like in a location we know we'll be going to again & again for family vacations.  At the time we had no thought of doing timeshare exchanges, taking bonus weeks, or even joining RCI. 

What got us into timeshare exchanges is TUG -- actually, that little bit of insider wisdom tucked away in an obscure corner of the TUG advice section somewhere about how low-cost timeshares in certain overseas locations can trade like a tiger.  With so little money involved, we took a chance & bought 1.  Included with the purchase was several years of paid-up RCI membership.  The overseas timeshare we bought is so far away that it's highly unlikely we will ever vacation there ourselves.  For us, it's exclusively for exchanging into nice USA timeshares.  Without RCI we wouldn't get any use from it. 

Ditto timeshare points.  After absorbing more of the _Wisdom Of TUG_, we took the plunge into timeshare points in a small-time way last year.  Points-based timeshare exchanging, the kind we're into anyway, only works through RCI.  So without RCI, our use of our USA points-based timeshare would be highly restricted, in contrast to how it works now through RCI Points. 

Thus, from my limited perspective -- depending as I do on RCI to get advantageous use of my overseas timeshare & of my points-based USA timeshare -- it's in my interest for RCI to make lots of money so that it will not only still be around but also will remain in a financially robust condition so that it can keep on providing the services I use it for (points exchanges & weeks exchanges).  

Not only that, I like RCI _Last Call_ reservations -- luxury timeshare accommodations for way less than the cost of Motel 6 & Super 8 -- that don't even involve exchanging my timeshares.  However, I have to belong to RCI in order to take advantage of _Last Call_, & I have to own a timeshare that RCI knows about in order to remain a member of RCI. 

So, sure, I guess I'll stick with RCI as long as I'm interested in getting more use out of my RCI timeshares. 

What was the question again? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.


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## copper (Feb 22, 2006)

We own two RCI affiliated weeks at one resort but never joined RCI as we decided to use the weeks for the first few years. Our original plan was to join RCI in 2007 to take advantage RCI member benefits when we retire. I now see no membership benefits that I'm interested in pursuing.

In the current RCI rental environment we can obtain the use of rental weeks cheaper than what it costs us in annual maintenance fees at the resort we own at + RCI membership fees + RCI trade fees. If RCI cancels the rental on me I can dispute any payment with the CC company and get my money back where an RCI member with a canceled trade gets... squat.

RCI is not the type of company I'm looking to do business with as a timeshare owner but I will take advantage of RCI rentals if the price is right.


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## MusicMan (Feb 22, 2006)

I'm dropping my membership when it expires in two months.  (I've already had the discussion with RCI twice).  I'm doing it because:
1.  I'll be using my unit more often in the near future.
2. I can access all kinds of inventory via AFVClub, Skyauctions,DAE, etc.
3. I don't like the blatant inequity of "points gets weeks, but weeks don't get points"


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## Avery (Feb 22, 2006)

I have decided to keep my membership for the time being, but I am not depositing any dual-affiliated resorts with them. I will deposit one RCI-only week in order to have access to the few attractive exchanges (to me) available through them. I hate the 2 year in advance planning combined with excessive cancellation penalties (more in terms of diminished trade power than $, though the $ is not insignificant).


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 22, 2006)

I couldn't drop RCI even if I wanted to do so.  Many of the point systems charge you an annual fee which gets you a "free" RCI account.  So, I have about 5 of them.  I wonder how much of this forced membership is built into the numbers they report every year?


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## AwayWeGo (Feb 22, 2006)

*We Got "Points" With A "Week"*



			
				MusicMan (Formerly JP) said:
			
		

> "points gets weeks, but weeks don't get points"


In 2005 we got a 3BR reservation at HGVC Sea World by exchanging our banked 2BR standard-grade non-points overseas timeshare week. 

I thought it was a straight week-for-week timeshare exchange.  (At the time we had not yet taken the points plunge.) 

Later, I looked in the RCI book or maybe at the RCI web site & discovered that HGVC Sea World is a points resort -- & the 3BR week we got there on exchange was supposed to require lots & lots of points. 

Maybe it was a fluke, but at least that 1 reservation was a case of somebody in weeks raiding the points inventory. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.


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## 3Js (Feb 22, 2006)

I dropped my membership with RCI because:

1)  Other exchange companies charge less for annual fees & exchange fees
2)  I'm not able to search online with RCI
3)  RCI's website is always down (whenever I try to log on anyway)
4)  Don't like it that exchange availability is put on rentals exclusively


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## short (Feb 22, 2006)

*Opposite problem*



			
				Judy said:
			
		

> I will be letting my RCI membership expire in June because:
> 1. Their downward VEP restrictions prevent me from getting the exchanges and Last Chance vacations I want.
> 2. Their rental program.
> 3. Their Points program takes vacations out of the weeks exchange inventory.
> ...



Judy,

I have the opposite problem.  I have been block from exchanging into the exact week I wanted in Orlando because of upward VEP.  I have another week that would have the VEP to get this week but its trading power is significatly reduced because I cancelled an exchange at 2 1/2 weeks prior to check in.  I got the exact week on Extra Vacations for only slightly more than an exchange fee.

I've gotten some great bargains on EV and Last Call in the last year.  These are weeks I would have been willing to exchange a week for but they were not available to me for week exchanges or were so cheap it did not make sense to exchange a week.

I will likely keep my membership in RCI just for access to EV and LC but will likely not deposit another week for exchange.  All my resorts are Dual affiliated.

Short


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## ira g (Feb 22, 2006)

AwayWeGo said:
			
		

> In 2002, when we started taking timeshare tours (the 1 we took in Atlantic City in 1975 doesn't count), the sales people pushed RCI & exchanges & bonus weeks & all that.
> 
> Later in 2002, when we actually bought a (resale) timeshare week, we picked a timeshare resort we really like in a location we know we'll be going to again & again for family vacations.  At the time we had no thought of doing timeshare exchanges, taking bonus weeks, or even joining RCI.
> 
> ...


Alan- I spent the last half hour reading your posts and aside from some of the RCI issues that we all don't like and their increasing fees we are in agreement with you. In general RCI has been good to us. We have obtained trades to places that we have throughly enjoyed and would not have been able to take without them. As RCI's practices continually change we change with them. When their systems change to such a degree that we are unable to tolerate their practices then we will leave. This has not reached that level. Actually we want to applaud RCI for helping us in a situation in Nov of last year. We had checked into a resort and an emergency came up and we were only able to stay one day. We had to leave and travel to another area and granted we lost our exchange week and exchange fee. We called RCI and they were able to get us a last call at a substantially reduced fee from even the stated last call price. So  I will not throw stones at RCI until their practices are so intolerable as to make us want to leave. So far this is not the case and we have 4 weeks already booked for 2007 and look forward to many more years with RCI.


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## taffy19 (Feb 22, 2006)

We will not renew because we make so few exchanges but our main reason for dropping RCI is that RCI won't let you *request first*.

II gives us that feature so we have taken advantage of that and, if we can't get what we want, we use or rent our week instead. This has worked well for us. Why can't RCI do this too?

I am planning to try SFX with one of our weeks that trades with RCI now and if that works, use them instead.


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## regatta333 (Feb 22, 2006)

*Stuck with RCI*

Like Boca, I'm stuck with RCI because the membership is included in my Fairfield points assessment and they won't let me switch and won't let me use II, even if I pay for my own membership.  A real conflict there, with Cendant owning both FF and RCI.

I will not be giving RCI any more deposits, unless I can get what I want with a search-first.  They don't have what I want and my points go back to my FF account.  From what I have seen and read, I am reluctant to move to RCI points, since it seems like Cendant is continuously coming up with ways to get more of your money to "upgrade" your membership.  

I plan to start using DAE and SFX, or rent my weeks and use the proceeds to rent at exactly where I'd like to stay.


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## JLB (Feb 22, 2006)

*Wow!  Civility.*

I believe this is the most civil discussion of a volatile issue I have ever seen on TUG.

Give yourselves an attaboy or attagirl.    

I will keep our RCI membership because I do not have an Inside Guy at II.


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## Egret1986 (Feb 22, 2006)

*So far RCI is still working for me...*



			
				Dani said:
			
		

> There are only two reasons for which I would drop my RCI  membership.    First and foremost, its all about the exchanges that I am able to obtain. Period.   If the day comes when I am no longer able to make the exchanges that I feel are appropriate for the week and/or weeks that I own, I will drop my membership.   Thankfully, I continue to obtain the exchanges that I desire.  I would also drop RCI if the cost to exchange increased to the point where it was no longer cost effective to exchange through RCI.  I think that an ever-increasing fee structure is a much bigger danger to their long-term prognosis than rentals ever could be.



I agree, Dani.  "...able to make the exchanges...appropriate for the week that I own.."  I own 5 timeshares; (1) I rent (2) I consistently use and (2) I always exchange.  The two I exchange; (1) is summer Southern CA and (1) is a blue Outer Banks, NC.  I've been exchanging the blue week, except for maybe twice, for about 20 years.  I don't get the exchanges with it that I get with my summer Southern CA, but in 20 years I've only gotten one bad exchange (because TUG wasn't around for advice and reviews).  I would say almost every exchange has been above average to exceptional relative to the week I am exchanging.  I have to admit I get a little nervous each year when I'm looking for exchanges with this blue week, but then..bam..I get something I consider (and I think a lot of folks would consider) great.  This summer I'm going to a very, very low supply, high demand area in prime season at a highly rated and reviewed resort that I got with this week and tonight I'm going to confirm a week I have on hold for 2007 at a resort during the same timeframe that I traded into last year with a much stronger trader.  I do deposit 2 years in advance and start searching for exchanges at the first available opportunity.   I like to plan in advance (probably because I've been conditioned to do that because of RCI over the years).  When the exchanges stop coming through, then it will be no need to keep my RCI membership.  But I have never not been able to make an exchange that I wanted nor felt I simply settled for something in order to be able to use my exchange week.

I also agree about the fees.  I've been paid up through 2011 for a few years, so I don't see that yearly fee and won't for another 5 years.  Right now, I'm only dealing with the exchange fees and feel as Dani does that their ever-increasing fee structure could make it no longer cost effective to exchange.  At that point, I would have to look into the other options. 

I'm sorry...a little off the topic...each day (bit of an exaggeration) it seems I discover something new that is owned by Cendant.  Are they quietly taking over the world?


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## Sydney (Feb 22, 2006)

I'm stuck with RCI for the moment as am on a points contract. However, I have stopped depositing anything into my weeks account with them due to a number of reasons, one of which is their *extensive *rentals programme. I do not agree with it.

The second reason is their ever-increasing fees. They increased our exchange fee again in January this year by $10. This is on top of their increase last Jan of $20.

Thirdly, and most importantly for me, I just feel that they are completely unethical.
For exmample:
#They changed their terms & conditions to allow rentals yet never informed the membership of this significant change; you know, like the banks do.
#Another alarming practice is the cancellation of confirmed exchanges with bogus reasons.
#Then the fact that if they cancel by mistake they will not rectify the matter by returning the week to the original wronged party but rather let the second exchanger keep it in an unconscionable attempt at damage control and limiting the disaffected members - no regard whatsoever as to the ethical solution.
#They once overcharged me against my clear written instructions and took months to refund it, only after I kept ringing back many times.
# They have consistently given me incorrect info on the phone that are always to my detriment, never the other way around.
There are numerous other examples that have led me to feel that they are" shifty" which I won't go into. 

Overall, I still receive acceptable exchanges from RCI but no better than DAE to justify staying with RCI in the long term.


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## michaelsmalley (Feb 22, 2006)

*Make sure I've got it straight !!!*



			
				3Js said:
			
		

> I dropped my membership with RCI because:
> 
> 1)  Other exchange companies charge less for annual fees & exchange fees
> 2)  I'm not able to search online with RCI
> ...


 
I  keep reading posts from people complaining about RCI fees.  Lets see if I've got this straight.

You will pay thousands of dollars for a TS.  You will pay hundreds of dollars for MF.  You will pay hundreds of dollars for air fare to get there.  When you get there you will again pay hundreds (if not thousnds) of dollars to rent a car, go out to eat, go to theme parks, or chase a little white ball around a cow pasture.  At the same time you complain because RCI raises their fees by a few dollars or charges $29.95 for a PFD.

Just wanted to make sure I had it straight.  I think you will find RCI fees the cheapest part of your trip.  Thanks for clearing things up.

Mike S.


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 23, 2006)

michaelsmalley said:
			
		

> I  keep reading posts from people complaining about RCI fees.  Lets see if I've got this straight.
> 
> You will pay thousands of dollars for a TS.  You will pay hundreds of dollars for MF.  You will pay hundreds of dollars for air fare to get there.  When you get there you will again pay hundreds (if not thousnds) of dollars to rent a car, go out to eat, go to theme parks, or chase a little white ball around a cow pasture.  At the same time you complain because RCI raises their fees by a few dollars or charges $29.95 for a PFD.
> 
> ...



Mike,

I don't think you are viewing these fees correctly.  You need to view a charge by any company relative to the value they are adding in the process.  

If, for instance, RCI charged you $10 to send you a written confirmation, according to your logic you should ignore that fee because it is small relative to the cost of your overall vacation.  That $10 should be compared to the cost of a stamp which is $.39 in the US.  That is highway robbery.

The same can be applied to RCI's fees.  If someone owns only 1 week, RCI charges them $89 for the membership fee and $149 for an exchange.  That adds $238 to the cost of ownership for the year.  If your maintenance fee is $600, then that's a 40% surcharge.  Highway robbery for an equal trade.

Look at the alternatives.  First, the owner can rent their week for between $0-20 fee on an advertising site and then rent something in return.

They can belong to a point system that doesn't charge a reservation fee.  Those that do charge around $35-50.  RCI's fee of $238 is ridiculously high.

It ONLY makes sense to stay with RCI if you are able to get HUGE trade ups.  Otherwise, stop paying them annual fees and stop depositing your weeks because there are much better venues for your intervals.


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## Walt (Feb 23, 2006)

*Good Post!  It Makes One Think About Exchanges in a New Light!*



			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> I don't think you are viewing these fees correctly.  You need to view a charge by any company relative to the value they are adding in the process.
> 
> ...




I don't know if any Tugger ever pointed this out before.  I know I never looked at it this way.  But it sure makes one think about RCI's Fees and RCI's Exchanges in a new light. 

Thanks,

Walt


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## Sydney (Feb 23, 2006)

I agree completely with Boca. So true. Value for money is what people want, whether they are paying $10, $100, $1000 or $10 000. If people feel like they are getting their money's worth, they don't mind paying.


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 23, 2006)

Walt said:
			
		

> [/B]
> 
> I don't know if any Tugger ever pointed this out before.  I know I never looked at it this way.  But it sure makes one think about RCI's Fees and RCI's Exchanges in a new light.
> 
> ...



Walt,

This is exactly why I am in favor of a very strong RENTAL market for timeshares.  Because, if the market is strong and expanding, then renting will always be a venue for timeshare owners.  That will put a MUCH STRONGER restraint on RCI than anything else we or any attorney general could.

It's ironic, but the exact practice that many of us are concerned about, namely timeshare rentals, will end up being the comeuppance of RCI.  

The bottom line is that an exchange is nothing more than two owners renting their weeks to each other for the same amount of money.  If they use points, there is a differential value.  The fee for exchanging a week should be $50 or less.  Anything higher than that and owners should consider renting instead.

Unfortunately, the people who get hurt are those who don't know this information and blindly deposit into RCI and get trade downs or nothing for their deposit.  Now, those poor souls are paying $89 per year to get nothing for their timeshare week when they could just let it sit empty for nothing extra (above their MF that is).


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## bluehende (Feb 23, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> I don't think you are viewing these fees correctly.  You need to view a charge by any company relative to the value they are adding in the process.
> 
> ...



Very well put......

I may be a special case but I only own 1 timeshare with a total cost of 900 to purchase.  My maintenance fees run around 300 bucks.  My out of pocket expenses including time cost of money are around 350 dollars a year for our condo.   If I were to join RCI my increase in out of pocket would be about 60% higher.  For this I receive the equivalent of what I already have if I'm lucky.  Not a business model I will pursue.  I have joined DAE for 0 bucks and if I decide to exchange, my cost is less than a 30% increase in my out of pocket.  The only downside is that I may have less choices with DAE, but I cann't actually quantitate that at all.  As for now...Thank you TUG.....I own a condo (resale) I am very happy to visit every year for much less than I can guarantee a rental for.

Thanks
Wayne


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## Walt (Feb 23, 2006)

*Check Out Post to Ask RCI*



			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> The same can be applied to RCI's fees.  If someone owns only 1 week, RCI charges them $89 for the membership fee and $149 for an exchange.  That adds $238 to the cost of ownership for the year.  If your maintenance fee is $600, then that's a 40% surcharge.  Highway robbery for an equal trade.
> 
> ...





I would like to point out my post to Madge about Snap Travel using* OUR (RCI’s) VCs * *as travel agents for Snap Travel.* *It appears that we are paying (Yearly Fees and Exchange Fees) for the cost of Operation of Snap Travel. * 

As you know Madge said that Snap Travel is an Outside Vendor.

Walt   


http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18760


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## Babs from UK (Feb 23, 2006)

*Rentals*

I love BocaBum's idea. 

So, we take the weekly maintenance charge for our resort, knock off the cost of belonging to RCI plus the one week exchange fee.

Advertise the rental on a special site (TUG?) for the difference in cost.

Hopefully we can then pick up a cheap rental on the same site (optimistic aren't I?!) 

Advantages: Renting at less than RCI will charge to non-timeshare owners (hopefully)

Taking our hard-earned villas out of the RCI rental pool - sorry, exchange/points system.

Hmmmm..........


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 23, 2006)

Babs from UK said:
			
		

> I love BocaBum's idea.
> 
> So, we take the weekly maintenance charge for our resort, knock off the cost of belonging to RCI plus the one week exchange fee.
> 
> ...



Babs,

It's easier than you might think to do.  I just did what you said and got a nice 2 bedroom OceanFRONT unit at the Marriott Ocean Pointe resort for a platinum Holiday week.  Try getting one of those from an exchange company.


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## JLB (Feb 23, 2006)

Most here know that I am not a strong proponet of the Cendant RCI business model, the open-timeshare model, as opposed to the DeHaan Model.

Most here also know that no one else here, or likely anywhere, has studied and documented a specific area for a specific timeframe as long or as thoroughly as I have.  My study goes back to the advent of on-line transactions via RCI.com, 1997 I believe.

Nothing I have done, either externally or from within RCI, has been able to establish a link between RCI's business model and the disappearance of availability of prime resorts in prime months.  It just so happens that what I used to see and no longer can occurred during the timeframe when RCI has focused on, in fact highlighted, their rental programs.

More power to anyone who can establish the connection.


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 23, 2006)

JLB said:
			
		

> Most here know that I am not a strong proponet of the Cendant RCI business model, the open-timeshare model, as opposed to the DeHaan Model.
> 
> Most here also know that no one else here, or likely anywhere, has studied and documented a specific area for a specific timeframe as long or as thoroughly as I have.  My study goes back to the advent of on-line transactions via RCI.com, 1997 I believe.
> 
> ...



It could be just the opposite.  It could be that prime week owners just got tired of trading down in RCI, so they started depositing less and started using or renting instead.  RCI then figured that that was the way the market was going and decided to follow the trend.

It's obvious to me that the DeHaan model was flawed from the start and timesharing weeks exchangers benefited for over 30 years of trade ups at the expense of prime week owners taking the trade downs.  It took them a while, but they figured out that that was a bad idea and either moved to point alternatives, personal usage, rentals or just simply left timesharing completely to better meet their needs.


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## JLB (Feb 23, 2006)

[_Edited to delete message that violates BBS posting rules._ Dave M, BBS Administrator]


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## michaelsmalley (Feb 23, 2006)

*5 weeks for 1*



			
				Sydney said:
			
		

> I agree completely with Boca. So true. Value for money is what people want, whether they are paying $10, $100, $1000 or $10 000. If people feel like they are getting their money's worth, they don't mind paying.



I agree with Boca.  IF you are using your TS and not exchanging it or if you want to exchange 1 week for 1 week his comments make great sense.   In my case I will probably never use or go to the TS I own.  I use the points it generates to exchange for other places and almost always go for the 45 day window.  That fits my travel needs better and I end up with 4 or 5 weeks of vacation a year for my 1 week TS.  When I take my MF, the RCI membership, and the exchange fees and divide by 5 it makes the cost very attractive from a use standpoint.  RCI has a large selection for me to choose from and I have had very little trouble going where and when I want to, even on short notice.  Perhaps there are other exchange companies out there that have a large selection of last minute exchanges but if so, I haven't found them.  I am in the process of buying another TS (resale) to be used for PFD.  I will probably never visit there.  When I can purchase an inexpensive 3 br Lockoff for less than $1,000, with a MF of around $500 and get 91,600 points by using PFD the RCI charge of $29.95 doesn't bother me one bit when I spread it out over 6. 8. or even 10 weeks of usage.  There is no way I can rent 5 weeks of condos for anywhere near what I am paying for my current TS that generates about 40,000 points, even after I add in all the RCI fees.  Each week averages out far less than I would pay in a Motel 6.

Yes exchange fees are important.  However, if you think they are too high why cut off your nose to spite your face by dropping out of any system.  Instead figure out how to maximize your dollars and make the system work for you.  Has anyone out there actually cancelled their vacation plans because of a $189.00 exchange fee.  If I was going to cancel a vacation because of $189.00, I probably couldn't afford the vacation in the first place and shouldn't be going.

Mike S.


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## Walt (Feb 23, 2006)

*As Long as the Resorts keep Doing A Bulk Spacebank It Doesn't Matter*



			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> It could be just the opposite.  It could be that prime week owners just got tired of trading down in RCI, so they started depositing less and started using or renting instead.  RCI then figured that that was the way the market was going and decided to follow the trend.



As long as the resorts keep doing a Bulk Spacebank they don't need us for their Rental Programs.

There are many Prime weeks to rent in Hawaii because of the Bulk Spacebanking done by the Embassy Maui, the Embassy Kauai, all of the Pahio group, Mauna Loa Village and others.  This appears to be true in other area too.

Walt


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## CaliDave (Feb 23, 2006)

michaelsmalley said:
			
		

> I use the points it generates to exchange for other places and almost always go for the 45 day window.  That fits my travel needs better and I end up with 4 or 5 weeks of vacation a year for my 1 week TS.



Many timeshare owners cannot travel like this. 
We have to travel during school holiday's. We need 2bd units for the family.
Plane reservations cannot be made last minute.

If we dont fly.. and we drive to our favortite So Cal coastal locations for summer. You arent going to find anything in the 45 day window. 

Many people need to ask for time off work , months in advance. 

If you are retired and you have no commitments hold you back. You have the perfect system. For the rest of us, it doesn't work.


----------



## michaelsmalley (Feb 23, 2006)

*Lot of kids*



			
				CaliDave said:
			
		

> Many timeshare owners cannot travel like this.
> We have to travel during school holiday's. We need 2bd units for the family.
> Plane reservations cannot be made last minute.
> 
> ...



My wife and I are only semi retired (we own our own business) but we have 3 grown kids and 2 or 3 retired couples that we are good friends with.  So far it has worked out great.  They all watch the 45 day window and if they want to go, they pay the exchange fee and go.  That is the kids SOMETIMES pay the fee but you know how that is if you have kids.  The old "Pay ya later routine" but who cares.  I realize our system won't work for everybody but it works great for us.  Wife and I usually go 2 or 3 times a year and our 'private travel club' use the rest.

I'm not putting down anyone who has problems with RCI.  I'm just saying that for us and our situtation, RCI has done a wonderful job.  It's been a lot of fun for a lot of people at very little cost.

Mike S.


----------



## Sydney (Feb 23, 2006)

Michael, I'm glad that RCI is working out for you & your wife. I wished it works out for my family, but it's not. So I've decided to just stop throwing more money away in exchange for more frustrations and unpleasant experiences. I don't feel I would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

In line with Boca's suggestion of renting out your own units. We did just that to pay for our week in Paris last year. No way could we get a comfortable 2 br for 6 people through any exchange company. We rented through VRBO which is the way to go when a timeshare just willl not work.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Feb 23, 2006)

[_Edited to delete message that violates BBS posting rules._ Dave M, BBS Administrator]


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## Swarthog (Feb 24, 2006)

I'm not sure what I'm going to do in 2009 when my RCi membership expires. I have 3 SA weeks and in the past they have been great values. Even if I never get another trade it was money well spent. Unfortunately with rising RCI fees, higher levies, the weaker dollar, and less trade power the viabilty of exchanging is diminishing. To stay in RCI with just a single week doesn't seem prudent anymore. When I could get an instant exchange for 3,000 Worldmark Points it was good, but at 4,000 not so good. It really appears that for the most part buying only where you plan to go (or in a multi resort system) is the way to go.


----------



## artmanr (Feb 24, 2006)

THIS THREAD IS VERY INTERESTING:

However, I'm not sure I follow everything.  I gather others do not as well.  You all have an adanced knowledge of the workings of RCI and the various resorts.  It would be great is someone could condense this into one document and have a sticky posted on the bbs somewhere.  That being said...

Here is my list of complaints with RCI...

1.  RCI is too expensive for the service it provides.
2.  The website is poorly designed, slow and quirky.
3.  There seems to be too little inventory available.
4.  Reviews of resorts are stale and not helpful in making decisions
5.  Resort information is not complete enough, not enough pictures, etc.

From what I read here, it appears that the reasons for the lack of inventory are:

1. Bulk space banked weeks (not sure what that means)
2. Owners of Prime Red weeks choosing not to deposit/partake in RCI.  
3. A possible conspiracy amongst t/s resorts and RCI...

Is there a place where RCI posts the actual terms of service/contract with that controls the relationship with members?  If so, are they breaching that contract.  It would be very interesting to know what they promise and what they actually provide OR are they committing a conflict of interest by serving two masters...Members/Owners and the Resorts.  Hmmm...

AR


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## Dave M (Feb 24, 2006)

artmanr said:
			
		

> You all have an advanced knowledge of the workings of RCI....  It would be great if someone could condense this into one document and have a sticky posted on the bbs somewhere.


See the FAQs _sticky_ thread at the top of the list of topics for the Ask RCI forum.


----------



## Dave M (Feb 24, 2006)

artmanr said:
			
		

> Is there a place where RCI posts the actual terms of service/contract with that controls the relationship with members?  If so, are they breaching that contract.  It would be very interesting to know what they promise and what they actually provide OR are they committing a conflict of interest by serving two masters...Members/Owners and the Resorts.  Hmmm...


See the link for "Membership Terms and Conditions" at the bottom of many RCI website pages. Among other things, that document essentially gives RCI the right to do anything it wants with a week that a member deposits.


----------



## taffy19 (Feb 24, 2006)

Walt said:
			
		

> I have 2 questions.
> 
> Why have you or why will you be dropping your membership in RCI?
> 
> ...


Walt, the reason we are not renewing is that RCI doesn't have request first. We want to know what we can get for our week. II has this feature.    Emmy


----------



## Dani (Feb 25, 2006)

artmanr said:
			
		

> From what I read here, it appears that the reasons for the lack of inventory are:
> 
> 1. Bulk space banked weeks (not sure what that means)
> 2. Owners of Prime Red weeks choosing not to deposit/partake in RCI.
> ...



   What should be understood is that the reason why some claim a "lack of inventory" is because they do not have the required trade power to see the majority of the weeks in the space-bank.   I could search RCI right now and pick up nearly a hundered or more units in Hawaii on-line.  Similarly, I could search II right now and see exactly 2 or 3 weeks on-line...6 if I'm lucky.   Interestingly, few seem to care to investigate why that is and even fewer state the reasons listed above as the cause of this lack of inventory in II.  There is a perpetual double standard when it comes to RCI and II.

  BTW...I have no idea why bulk-spacebanking would have anything to do with the lack of inventory.


----------



## huestous (Feb 25, 2006)

Dani said:
			
		

> Interestingly, few seem to care to investigate why that is and even fewer state the reasons listed above as the cause of this lack of inventory in II.


When anecdotal data fits a preconceived idea, why look for more data?


----------



## Walt (Feb 25, 2006)

*Lets do Trade Test*



			
				Dani said:
			
		

> What should be understood is that the reason why some claim a "lack of inventory" is because they do not have the required trade power to see the majority of the weeks in the space-bank.  * I could search RCI right now and pick up nearly a hundered or more units in Hawaii on-line.*  Similarly, I could search II right now and see exactly 2 or 3 weeks on-line...6 if I'm lucky.   Interestingly, few seem to care to investigate why that is and even fewer state the reasons listed above as the cause of this lack of inventory in II.  There is a perpetual double standard when it comes to RCI and II.
> 
> BTW...I have no idea why bulk-spacebanking would have anything to do with the lack of inventory.



Hi Dani,

What you say might be true about you searching Hawaii on line and picking up *nearly 100 or more units with RCI*.  I know this is true with what is available for RCI's Rentals.

How about doing a *Trade Test * for RCI to see?  Do 3 ten week searches. Do one for *September and October, 2006*.  Another one for *Nov. and Dec., 2006.*.  And another one for *Jan. and Feb., 2007.*

We really only need 3 Tuggers to do the Test.  One with a* Low trade week. *  One with a *Medium Trade week*.  (I have one that has traded into the Embassys and the Pahio at the Shearwater but I believe is a medium week that is spacebanked 2 years out)  I will do the medium week.  And we need some one with the *Highest or Top Trader*.  Other are Welcome.

So what do you say?  Anyone willing to prove it?  I am open any week night next week.


we could also do the same for II if you would like.  I have a low trader for that one.

Walt


----------



## Walt (Feb 25, 2006)

*Here Is what I see today.*

*This Is What I See!!*


*Sept. and Oct., 2006*

The following 3 Resorts have availability during your requested time frame. 

Click on the resort name for detailed resort information. 



Resort Name Resort ID Location Max Occ Check-in Date Range 
PAHIO at Ka'Eo Kai 

See Reviews  1376 Princeville, HI, USA  6/2  09/07/2006 - 10/22/2006 
PAHIO at Kauai Beach Villas 

See Reviews  3681 Lihue, HI, USA  4/4  09/28/2006 - 09/28/2006 
Lawai Beach Resort 

See Reviews  5080 Koloa, HI, USA  6/4  10/06/2006 - 10/20/2006 

*Nov. and Dec., 2006 * 

The following 6 Resorts have availability during your requested time frame. 

Click on the resort name for detailed resort information. 


Resort Name Resort ID Location Max Occ Check-in Date Range 
Banyan Harbor 

See Reviews  0266 Lihue, HI, USA  6/4  12/15/2006 - 12/15/2006 
PAHIO at Ka'Eo Kai 

See Reviews  1376 Princeville, HI, USA  2/2  11/12/2006 - 11/12/2006 
Kahana Falls 

See Reviews  2788 Lahaina, HI, USA  2/2  11/11/2006 - 11/11/2006 
Embassy Vacation Resort Poipu Po 

See Reviews  3682 Koloa, HI, USA  6/6  12/12/2006 - 12/12/2006 
Lawai Beach Resort 

See Reviews  5080 Koloa, HI, USA  4/4  11/03/2006 - 11/03/2006 
Shell Vacations Club at Paniolo 

See Reviews  6092 Waikoloa, HI, USA  6/6  11/04/2006 - 11/04/2006 

*Jan. and Feb., 2007 * 

The following 9 Resorts have availability during your requested time frame. 

Click on the resort name for detailed resort information. 



Resort Name Resort ID Location Max Occ Check-in Date Range 
Celebrity Resorts Waikiki 

See Reviews  0245 Honolulu, HI, USA  4/2  01/28/2007 - 01/28/2007 
The Makai Club at Princeville 

See Reviews  1254 Princeville, HI, USA  4/4  01/05/2007 - 02/23/2007 
PAHIO at Ka'Eo Kai 

See Reviews  1376 Princeville, HI, USA  6/2  02/01/2007 - 02/24/2007 
The Makai Club Cottages 

 1580 Princeville, HI, USA  6/4  02/04/2007 - 02/25/2007 
Pono Kai Resort 

See Reviews  2491 Kapaa, HI, USA  4/4  02/03/2007 - 02/03/2007 
PAHIO at the Shearwater 

See Reviews  2638 Princeville, HI, USA  6/6  02/08/2007 - 02/08/2007 
Kahana Falls 

See Reviews  2788 Lahaina, HI, USA  2/2  01/12/2007 - 01/12/2007 
PAHIO at Bali Hai Villas 

See Reviews  3031 Princeville, HI, USA  4/4  02/11/2007 - 02/23/2007 
PAHIO at Kauai Beach Villas 

See Reviews  3681 Lihue, HI, USA  4/4  02/01/2007 - 02/01/2007 

Walt


----------



## Walt (Feb 25, 2006)

*Here Are The RCI Rentals for Dec. 2006*

*Here are the rentals for Dec. 2006*  


1)  Maui Sunset 

See Reviews  0192 Kihei, HI, USA  4/4  12/03/2006 - 12/03/2006 $1,120.99 

2)  Lifetime in Hawaii 

See Reviews  1138 Honolulu, HI, USA  4/2  12/02/2006 - 12/09/2006 $1,009.99 

3)  PAHIO at Ka'Eo Kai 

See Reviews  1376 Princeville, HI, USA  6/2  12/01/2006 - 01/07/2007 $1,009.99 

4)  Alii Kai Resort 

See Reviews  2201 Princeville, HI, USA  6/6  12/02/2006 - 12/30/2006 $1,159.99 

5)  Pono Kai Resort 

See Reviews  2491 Kapaa, HI, USA  4/4  12/02/2006 - 12/23/2006 $1,119.99 

6)  Imperial Hawaii Vacation Club 

See Reviews  2605 Honolulu, HI, USA  4/2  12/06/2006 - 01/03/2007 $1,009.99 

7)  PAHIO at Bali Hai Villas 

See Reviews  3031 Princeville, HI, USA  6/4  12/03/2006 - 01/05/2007 $1,119.99 

8)  PAHIO at Kauai Beach Villas 

See Reviews  3681 Lihue, HI, USA  6/4  12/02/2006 - 01/07/2007 $1,119.99 

9)  Embassy Vacation Resort Poipu Po 

See Reviews  3682 Koloa, HI, USA  6/6  12/01/2006 - 12/18/2006 $1,159.99 

10) Paniolo Greens 

See Reviews  3977 Waikoloa, HI, USA  6/6  12/02/2006 - 01/06/2007 $1,159.99 

11) Mauna Loa Village by the Sea 

See Reviews  4908 Kailua-Kona, HI, USA  6/4  12/01/2006 - 12/08/2006 $1,177.99 

12) Embassy Vacation Resort at Kaana 

See Reviews  4985 Lahaina, HI, USA  4/4  12/01/2006 - 01/06/2007 $1,119.99 

13) Fairfield Hawaii at Kona Hawaiia 

See Reviews  5971 Kailua-Kona, HI, USA  6/4  12/01/2006 - 12/08/2006 $1,994.99 

14) Aston Waikiki Beach Hotel - Holi 

 8496 Honolulu, HI, USA  4/2  12/02/2006 - 12/23/2006 $1,430.99 

15) Aston Kaanapali Shores - Holiday 

 8497 Lahaina, HI, USA  7/2  12/02/2006 - 12/23/2006 $1,097.99 

16) Aston Waikiki Sunset - Holiday N 

 8499 Honolulu, HI, USA  5/4  12/02/2006 - 12/23/2006 $1,124.99 

17) Maui Kaanapali Villas - Holiday 

 8503 Lahaina, HI, USA  4/2  12/02/2006 - 12/09/2006 $1,016.99 

Walt   

PS.  I would like to point out 3 things.

1) It has been said that Hawaii is the Hardest Exchange.  Could it be because of Rentals?   

2)  There are *resorts* on this list that I *never see on my searches*.  And I search Hawaii a lot.   

3)  As I understand it, the *Embassy Maui and Kauai*, both,  bulk spacebank 12 months out.  The weeks from 6 months out to 12 months is the time period that is open for Embassy owners only to exchange.  Embassy weeks should *not* be available for exchanges to anyone else.  I would also assume this should mean for *rentals too*.  Otherwise, what is the purpose of the owner's perk.  All the weeks could be rented out before an owner can exchange for a week.


----------



## Dani (Feb 25, 2006)

Walt said:
			
		

> Hi Dani,
> 
> What you say might be true about you searching Hawaii on line and picking up *nearly 100 or more units with RCI*.  I know this is true with what is available for RCI's Rentals.
> 
> ...




  Walt,

    I'm not sure it's necessary to conduct a trade test to prove the point.  Anyone with a strong trader within RCI can see that this is the case.  Any way you look at it, II pales in comparison to RCI  if one is using what one can see on-line to show a purported lack of available inventory.   When I cheked II last night, there were exactly ZERO weeks in Hawaii on-line in II.   ZERO.    This morning....there is one week on-line in Hawaii in II.

   Don't get me wrong, I am very, very happy with II.   I think that they are a wonderful exchange company.  The fact that they have fewer weeks on-line that RCI has absolutely nothing to do with my ability to pick up great trades with II.   Also, there are many reasons why this is the case within II, none of which have IMHO anything to do with a conspiracy or the rental of space-banked weeks.  I was just making a point.


----------



## Walt (Feb 25, 2006)

*I would really Like a strong RCI trader out there to look at these months!!*



			
				Dani said:
			
		

> Walt,
> 
> I'm not sure it's necessary to conduct a trade test to prove the point.  Anyone with a strong trader within RCI can see that this is the case.



Hi Dani,

It sure would nice for the rest of us to see what a Strong RCI Trader will pick up.  Anyone willing to do so?  It only takes a few minutes.

I think I give proof that RCI has more weeks available than II in Hawaii during this time period.

Walt


----------



## short (Feb 25, 2006)

*Weeks trading*

Walt,
This is a flaw in the weeks theory of trading.  Everyone agrees that in the weeks system there must be a system of equal for equal.  So trading power and VEP create a little group weeks that my week is eligable to trade into.  If a week has to high a quality or to high of trading power I will never see it.  If it sits on RCIs website for very long it becomes excess inventory and goes to the rentals.  RCI does not wait around for the rest of us to take it at the 45 day window.

If I want to go to Hawaii its not going to be with the week I have in the bank.  I'm not going to cry about it.  I'll get a better trading week or I'll rent an extra vacation.

As an aside, if I can find a extra vacation for $500 or less I'll go for it even without insurance.  At $500 or more I'm not so sure.  AT $1200 for a week in Hawaii I would not rent from RCI without some sort of vacation insurance.  Actually I would not rent at all for $1200, I would look for other options with less costly cancellation penalties and/or more flexability in checkin and checkout dates.

JMHO
Short


----------



## Dani (Feb 25, 2006)

Walt said:
			
		

> Hi Dani,
> 
> I think I give proof that RCI has more weeks available than II in Hawaii during this time period.
> 
> Walt



  Exactly Walt... you've already proved the point.   Even if there were not a single other week in RCI other than those you have listed, the point has been made.


----------



## Walt (Feb 25, 2006)

*I Don't Understanding The Bold Print Part*



			
				short said:
			
		

> Walt,
> This is a flaw in the weeks theory of trading.  Everyone agrees that in the weeks system there must be a system of equal for equal.  *So trading power and VEP create a little group weeks that my week is eligable to trade into.  If a week has to high a quality or to high of trading power I will never see it.  If it sits on RCIs website for very long it becomes excess inventory and goes to the rentals.  RCI does not wait around for the rest of us to take it at the 45 day window.*
> 
> If I want to go to Hawaii its not going to be with the week I have in the bank.  I'm not going to cry about it.  I'll get a better trading week or I'll rent an extra vacation.
> ...



I don't want to put my words in your mouth.  Could you explain the Bold Print part of your post?

As far as VEP, I have a question.  Does VEP help the membership or RCI?  Say I have a top trader and I am willing to go to any Resort that is available to me.  RCI should allow me to do so by showing me all of the available Resorts.  VEP trades should be my option.  I should be allowed to do an override.

As an example, Let us say, *I have a GC Resort in Hawaii that is a fixed week in Jan. and Feb.  And Let us say, I want to go to Ocean City, MD. in April. This seems like a really, really, dumb trade. * 

There are many Resorts available but because of VEP, I don't see them.  But, I can rent them from Snap Travel/RCI for $1000.  Who does this Help?  RCI or me, the RCI member?  RCI says they are only protecting me by not allowing me to see the exchanges that any low trader could see. They are judging what is best for me based on the VEP. 

let us talk more about this really, really, dumb trade in my example.

1)  How does RCI know that I can only take one vacation this year? 

2)  How does RCI know that I can not afford to fly to Hawaii this year?

3)  How does RCI I can not afford to spend $1000 for a week in Ocean City MD in April.

4)  How does RCI know that I have worked for 9 months on a Bird Carving for the Annual Ward World Championship Wildfowl Carving Competition show in April.  

5)  How can RCI know that I have a buyer for the Bird Carving if the carving places in the top 3 places.  And he is willing to pay me $20,000 for the carving?  And the award for being the top bird carving is another $20,000.

Now, none of the above is true. (except there is a Annual Ward World Championship Wildfowl Carving Competition in Ocean City MD in April)  

But, what right does RCI have to play BIG Brother and not allow me to take a trade down if it is in my best interest to do so?  Why should I allow RCI to judge what is best for me if they do not have all the facts.  RCI is telling me that a VEP trade is best for me.... I would rather be the judge what is best for me...Not RCI and their VEP.  I am over 21 and I should the right to decide for myself.

Walt


----------



## Walt (Feb 25, 2006)

*What do you think?*



			
				Dani said:
			
		

> Exactly Walt... you've already proved the point.   Even if there were not a single other week in RCI other than those you have listed, the point has been made.




Hi Dani,

I would like to see what you think and make of the following facts.

1)  While my search for *Exchanges* for November and December showed 6 Resorts, *only 2 were for December*.

2)  My search for RCI Extra Vacations *Rentals * showed *17 Resorts Available*.

Walt


----------



## Dani (Feb 26, 2006)

Walt said:
			
		

> Hi Dani,
> 
> I would like to see what you think and make of the following facts.
> 
> ...



  I think you pretty much know what I think.  Besides...I have no desire to have this discusssion yet again.    Maybe in a few weeks or months.


----------



## Judy (Feb 26, 2006)

short said:
			
		

> Walt,
> If a week has to high a quality or to high of trading power I will never see it.


Or too low a quality


----------



## Judy (Feb 26, 2006)

Walt said:
			
		

> Does VEP help the membership or RCI?  Say I have a top trader and I am willing to go to any Resort that is available to me.  RCI should allow me to do so by showing me all of the available Resorts.  VEP trades should be my option.  I should be allowed to do an override.


You can do an override.  First you have to call a VC.  Then you have to convince him/her and possibly the supervisor that you won't complain if you don't like the resort.  Then the VC can lift the VEP block and do a manual search for you.  If nothing comes up, you can call back a million times every day until you get your trade, unless members with ongoing searches get it first.  Or you can take your business elsewhere.  
IMHO, RCI benefits from the VEP restrictions because if you and other members can't see the exchange options you want, there's a better possibility that those weeks will be available for rental.



			
				Walt said:
			
		

> As an example, Let us say, *I have a GC Resort in Hawaii that is a fixed week in Jan. and Feb.  And Let us say, I want to go to Ocean City, MD. in April. This seems like a really, really, dumb trade. *
> There are many Resorts available but because of VEP, I don't see them.


  VEP shouldn't keep you from seeing off-season resorts.  It will keep you from seeing resorts that RCI thinks are too good or not good enough in quality for you.


----------



## short (Feb 26, 2006)

*Clarification*



			
				Walt said:
			
		

> I don't want to put my words in your mouth.  Could you explain the Bold Print part of your post?
> Walt



Walt,
My apologies.  I meant to say if my VEP is *to high or low * and my trading power is *to low*.

As an example I will offer my lower VEP week for Orlando for October 2006.  This week sees almost all of Orlando but not the HGVC on I drive.

I go to extra vacations all(at least I thing all) of the Orlando inventory for October is in Extra Vacations for $340. per week including HGVC I Drive.  I believe this is VEP restriction at work.  It has created excess inventory because I cannot trade into it.

As an example of trading power my lower trading power week does not see any of the HI weeks mentioned previously.  I as well as probobly lots of other weeks cannot get an HI week.  These weeks historically then become excess inventory and go on sale as extra vacations or Snap travel.

Right or wrong, the weeks system of protecting the trading power of Hawaii and high VEP weeks leaves some weeks out there to be rented.  Yes perhaps RCI should leave them for the 45 day window folks.  Yes perhaps RCI should have the weeks be more competatively priced.

As a point of clarification I have rented a week in EV that was clearly a points week.  I check and it was not available in weeks at all.  Other weeks I've rented on EV are clearly weeks exchanges moved to EV as excess inventory.  

Short


----------



## Walt (Feb 26, 2006)

*No Problem*



			
				Dani said:
			
		

> I think you pretty much know what I think.  Besides...I have no desire to have this discusssion yet again.    Maybe in a few weeks or months.



No Problem.  That seems fair. Anytime you want to talk about it you know where I am.

Walt


----------



## regatta333 (Feb 26, 2006)

*VEP restrictions with Ongoing Searches*

If I place an ongoing search against a specific resort that I am normally precluded from seeing due to VEP restrictions (requested resort has lower VEP), will this match if the resort becomes available?  Just curious as to whether a specific resort request on an ongoing search will automatically override VEP.


----------



## timeos2 (Feb 26, 2006)

*VEP is a weeks tool*



			
				Walt said:
			
		

> But, what right does RCI have to play BIG Brother and not allow me to take a trade down if it is in my best interest to do so?  Why should I allow RCI to judge what is best for me if they do not have all the facts.  RCI is telling me that a VEP trade is best for me.... I would rather be the judge what is best for me...Not RCI and their VEP.  I am over 21 and I should the right to decide for myself.
> 
> Walt


The whole idea of VEP is only necessary because week for week trades are almost never equal. It is easy to understand that since a weeks owner only gets one bite at the apple with their week they may, despite all protests to the contrary, complain when the week they get is far below the quality they gave up. RCI tries to avoid this by blocking them from such weeks.  How much better it is to simply make the lower quality unit/time just cost less thus leaving "change" for the exchanger. RCI Points accomplishes that.  If a points owner is willing to take a week with only some of their points then that time can't be rented as it was claimed through the exchange system.  It went to an owner, not an outsider.  And both sides - depositor and user - feel they are getting fair value.  It is the way things are supposed to work.


----------



## Judy (Feb 27, 2006)

regatta333 said:
			
		

> If I place an ongoing search against a specific resort that I am normally precluded from seeing due to VEP restrictions (requested resort has lower VEP), will this match if the resort becomes available?  Just curious as to whether a specific resort request on an ongoing search will automatically override VEP.


No.  Your search could run for years while hundreds of weeks at the resort you want become available and you will never match.  Even if you ask RCI to lift the VEP restriction for an ongoing search, they will not do it.  They claim their system can't.  Hello....somebody set up the system that way


----------



## Walt (Feb 27, 2006)

*Wow! Bill Rogers quote!*

Wow!

Even Bill is thinking Rentals!

Time-share rental "is one of the true travel bargains today," said Bill Rogers of the Timeshare Users Group at Tug2.net, which was created by time-share owners.

"If I were getting involved with time share again from the start, knowing what I do now, I would not buy a time share but rent from current owners instead," said Rogers. "Usually you can find great rental deals just about anywhere you want to go and at prices that are sometimes near the annual maintenance fees" that owners pay to their resorts.


http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=132901#post132901

Walt


----------



## Carolinian (Mar 2, 2006)

It is the number of exchanges being made that is decreasing rather than the number of members.  I believe that many are taking a wait and see attitude hoping that things will improve, or just waiting until their membership runs out.

As I have said before, RCI created the best timeshare exchange system that has ever been set up back in the days before rentals and points, and it is sad to see them fly it into the ground.  For me to stay with RCI, they will need to make some serious changes both in the rental scheme and in the interface between Weeks and Points.  While it is a long shot, I keep my fingers crossed that they will come to their senses at some point and get back to being the great exchange company they used to be, and so will keep my RCI membership until it runs out, but not renew it thereafter unless there are some major changes.  At the same time, I have substantially reduced the deposits I make with RCI, prefering to give them to independents.






			
				Dani said:
			
		

> Exactly,
> 
> Contray to popular belief, membership in RCI has increased and not decreased.
> 
> There are only two reasons for which I would drop my RCI  membership.    First and foremost, its all about the exchanges that I am able to obtain. Period.   If the day comes when I am no longer able to make the exchanges that I feel are appropriate for the week and/or weeks that I own, I will drop my membership.   Thankfully, I continue to obtain the exchanges that I desire.  I would also drop RCI if the cost to exchange increased to the point where it was no longer cost effective to exchange through RCI.  I think that an ever-increasing fee structure is a much bigger danger to their long-term prognosis than rentals ever could be.


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## Carolinian (Mar 2, 2006)

I think the only way that such facts are going to be established with direct evidence is through interrogatories and depostions in either class action or consumer protection lititation against RCI.  However, circumstantial evidence is sufficient to prevail in a civil matter (and even to convict in a criminal matter) and there seems to be an ever growing body of circumstantial evidence on this issue.






			
				JLB said:
			
		

> Most here know that I am not a strong proponet of the Cendant RCI business model, the open-timeshare model, as opposed to the DeHaan Model.
> 
> Most here also know that no one else here, or likely anywhere, has studied and documented a specific area for a specific timeframe as long or as thoroughly as I have.  My study goes back to the advent of on-line transactions via RCI.com, 1997 I believe.
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Mar 2, 2006)

The big problem is that Points often ignores or downplays, the most important factors in the relative value of t/s weeks, and that is, of course, LOCATION and supply vs. demand.   A Motel 6 conversion in central London will always be more valuable than a Platinum Crown in an overbuilt location like Orlando, Branson, or the Canary Islands.  VEP seems to be generally ignored, as it should be, when one is trading into an overbuilt area.




			
				timeos2 said:
			
		

> The whole idea of VEP is only necessary because week for week trades are almost never equal. It is easy to understand that since a weeks owner only gets one bite at the apple with their week they may, despite all protests to the contrary, complain when the week they get is far below the quality they gave up. RCI tries to avoid this by blocking them from such weeks.  How much better it is to simply make the lower quality unit/time just cost less thus leaving "change" for the exchanger. RCI Points accomplishes that.  If a points owner is willing to take a week with only some of their points then that time can't be rented as it was claimed through the exchange system.  It went to an owner, not an outsider.  And both sides - depositor and user - feel they are getting fair value.  It is the way things are supposed to work.


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## JeffV (Mar 2, 2006)

Most of us are quietly making good exchanges and happily enjoying life rather than bemoaning what used to be and threatening litigation at the drop of a hat.
I don't think things are going back to "the good old days" and if that is what you are waiting on, cut and run.


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## Joe M (Mar 2, 2006)

Carolinian said:
			
		

> It is the number of exchanges being made that is decreasing rather than the number of members.



I keep copies of old RCI Disclosure Guides in .pdf format for both Weeks and Points on my computer so that I can track exchange statistics. RCI and II are required to disclose their exchange statistics by statute. I have the last three reported annual figures for RCI:

2002>>2.49 million exchanges

2003>>2.53 million exchanges

2004>>2.61 million exchanges

I fail to see a drop in exchanges.


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## Carolinian (Mar 2, 2006)

Funny thing, that those disclosure statements don't track with some of the other disclosures that RCI is required to file, that have been discussed on these boards a number of times.


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## Joe M (Mar 2, 2006)

Carolinian said:
			
		

> Funny thing, that those disclosure statements don't track with some of the other disclosures that RCI is required to file, that have been discussed on these boards a number of times.



I can't follow what you are saying in your statement. If you are aware of other RCI disclosures that conflict with the above figures then please advise. A link to such disclosed statements by RCI would be helpful.


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## Carolinian (Mar 2, 2006)

Those statements have been discussed here on TUG quite a number of times, and are part of a Cendent filing with, as I recall, the SEC.


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## Joe M (Mar 2, 2006)

Carolinian said:
			
		

> Those statements have been discussed here on TUG quite a number of times, and are part of a Cendent filing with, as I recall, the SEC.



Thank you. The 2004 Cendant Form 10-K reported a drop in exchanges of 2%. That exactly matches the Disclosure Guide figures for RCI Weeks:

2003>>2.159 million Weeks exchanges

2004>>2.112 million Weeks exchanges

But the Disclosure Guide figures for RCI Points show:

2003>>.370 million Points exchanges

2004>>.496 million Points exchanges

so when the figures are combined there is an overall increase in exchanges.

I do not think the Disclosure Guide conflicts with the 10-K filing. The two documents refer to different parts of the exchange program.


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## Carolinian (Mar 3, 2006)

However, in the filing two years ago, there is very specific language that says that RCI had a loss of revenue from a decrease in the number of exchanges but made up for it by an increase in fees.  That language did not single out either program and obviously lumped both together.  Although that specific language does not seem to be in the most recent filing, common sense would indicate that, again, for purposes of that filing they must be lumped together.


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## Walt (Mar 3, 2006)

*How does RCI count Extra Vacations?*



			
				Joe M said:
			
		

> Thank you. The 2004 Cendant Form 10-K reported a drop in exchanges of 2%. That exactly matches the Disclosure Guide figures for RCI Weeks:
> 
> 2003>>2.159 million Weeks exchanges
> 
> ...



*Do they count rentals as exchanges in the above numbers?*


I have rented from II.  My history of rentals and exchanges shows the Rentals as Gateway and Exchanges as Exchanges.  

I have also rented from RCI.  RCI does not call it an Extra Vacation.  The Confirmation sheet is the SAME for Rentals and for Exchanges.  Below is part my my confimation sheet for my RCI Rental.  Please note they call it an Exchange.  WHY?

Could it be to hide their Rental practices from the Resorts?

Could it be to hide their Rental practices from the RCI membership?

Could it be to hide their Rental practices from the State and Local Tax departments?



So I ask all of the defenders of RCI this question.

Why would RCI not call it a Rental?


*ONLINE VACATION CONFIRMATION*

TERMS AND CONDITIONS
1.	Late Check-In: Please notify the resort in advance if you anticipate a late arrival.
2.	Transferring an *Exchange:* This confirmation is transferable only with an RCI Guest Certificate.
3.	Cancelling a Confirmed *Exchange*: Should your plans change, please notify RCI immediately. Cancelling early may enable you to retain a portion of your *exchange fee.* Please call RCI for details. Our Vacation Guides will be available to assist you.
	4.	Unit Assignments: The resort reserves the right to assign a different unit of the same size and occupancy as the unit confirmed above.
5.	Fees and Assessments: When you utilize the RCI *exchange* system, you warrant that you have paid, or will pay when due, all maintenance fees and other assessments with respect to the vacation time you own at your resort.
6.	Guest Certificates: The RCI member who has received the confirmed *exchange * is the only individual who may request a guest certificate.


Walt


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## "Roger" (Mar 3, 2006)

Walt said:
			
		

> *Do they count rentals as exchanges in the above numbers?*


No.  Here are the exact words...

_"Timeshare points *and* rental transaction revenue (*rentals of unused timeshare inventory*) grew $24 million (28%) driven principally by an 18% increase in points and rental transaction volume and a 14% increase in the average price per rental transaction. Revenue trends reflect the expected shift in the RCI timeshare membership base toward a greater mix of points members from traditional one-week timeshare members. Points transactions are those executed by points members for other than a standard, one-week stay at an RCI timeshare property. Rental transactions are rentals of unused timeshare inventory to RCI members and non-members."_

The bottom line is that any points for products transactions and points for partial weeks are not counted within the number of exchanges.  Nor do any of the Extra Vacation transactions.

I forget what the current number of Points owners is, but I am sure that it is now over 10%.  RCI has reported that about 30% of points are used for points for products.  That alone would account for a sizable _decrease_ in the number of standard exchanges.

These numbers and the passage above have been posted before.  In response, Carolinian argued that most of the Points people were using up their points on 9,000 point exchanges within the 45 day period.  (These would count as exchanges.)  Thus, he claimed that Points people are making at least as many if not more exchanges than what they would have prior.  So, his contention was still that the total number of exchanges is down.

I have no idea where he came up the numbers (or, his estimate) for this contention.  (They would be about the only avenue left to defend the claim that exchanges are down.)  If Carolinian's claim is true, however, this would mean Weeks owners have nothing to fear with regard to the plundering and pillaging of their system.  Apparently, points owners are doing almost nothing but exchanging for products, making some exchanges within the Points system (those who read only this board would be surprised how often Points owners say that they do this and nothing but this), and moping up the exhanges that Weeks owners have passed over. They wouldn't have any points left over for taking anything else out of the system.

Actually, I don't think this is what is happening.  I think when you take into account the shift toward points usage, which Cendant openly cites in the above statement, exhanges are actually up, but modestly.


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## Judy (Mar 3, 2006)

The exchange statistics don't take into account the members who took something they didn't really want, just to avoid losing their week.


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## "Roger" (Mar 3, 2006)

Absolutely correct.  But, I really doubt that this is a new development.  

When I first joined TUG, the going rumor on these boards was that about 25% of the depositors never got _anything_ for their deposits.  I find that a little hard to believe.  Still, when I talked to people about timesharing before I bought, I really couldn't find anyone satisfied with their exchanges -- that is, until I got onto TUG.  Those who found TUG had the inside information on how to come out ahead.  Those not on TUG seemed to have been left in the ditch.  (Admittedly, this is anecdotal information.)


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## Walt (Mar 3, 2006)

*Again:  Why not call it a Rental?*

Roger

Why Doesn't RCI call it a Rental on the Online Confirmation Sheet.  RCI does not call it an Extra Vacation.  RCI does not call it a rental.  They call it an *Exchange.*  Why would they do this?  

Walt


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## "Roger" (Mar 3, 2006)

Who knows?  Something that their marketing department decided upon? 

What they put on those slips means squat, however, when it comes to their SEC filings.  Any explanations they offer within those filings about which columns include what had better be correct when they report the numbers or they are in BIG trouble.  

No, they did not include their rentals of "leftover" inventory as exchanges.  End of story.


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## geekette (Mar 3, 2006)

Walt said:
			
		

> Roger
> 
> Why Doesn't RCI call it a Rental on the Online Confirmation Sheet.  RCI does not call it an Extra Vacation.  RCI does not call it a rental.  They call it an *Exchange.*  Why would they do this?
> 
> Walt



Perhaps that's the only text they can put there without hosing up the entire system.    

It's just semantics, it doesn't mean anything other than that you can prove you got the week from RCI.

I haven't been in the game long enuf to know how long they went without rentals (Last Call, EV, and plain ole vanilla rental) but I think this is a pretty minor issue that they have probably de-prioritized over the years because they have bigger fish to fry.


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## Walt (Mar 3, 2006)

*RCI(Cendant) is a large company that always has a reason.*



			
				geekette said:
			
		

> Perhaps that's the only text they can put there without hosing up the entire system.
> 
> It's just semantics, it doesn't mean anything other than that you can prove you got the week from RCI.
> 
> I haven't been in the game long enuf to know how long they went without rentals (Last Call, EV, and plain ole vanilla rental) but I think this is a pretty minor issue that they have probably de-prioritized over the years because they have bigger fish to fry.



I Believe that RCI(Cendant) is a large company that has a reason for everything they do.  

Walt


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