# Lowest annual fees?



## knotez1 (Oct 15, 2010)

So if one is looking to buy on the resale market additional Wyndham points:

Which states have the lowest property taxes?

Is there a chart somewhere that might show properties with the lowest annual fees, maintenance fees etc.?

Maybe we need a shout out thread where each Wyndham owner displays their actual annual costs/fees for comparison.

Thanks for your ideas and responses.


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## MichaelColey (Oct 15, 2010)

I went to a presentation at Wyndham Bali Hai, and they claimed that they had the second lowest maintenance fees within Wyndham.  I don't remember which resort was lower, but I think it was somewhere on the east coast.


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## BellaWyn (Oct 15, 2010)

There IS a very well-maintained WYN MF chart but you have to register on the site to get to it.  Florida property taxes are paid separate, and in addition to, the MF's.  Most all other locations in the Wyndham system roll up the PT's in the MF's.

In UDI-only contracts you're doing good if the base MF is $4/K or less.  These are getting to be almost (not quite) non-existent.  Most are in the $4.50/K - $5.50/K range. As of this posting the lowest UDI MF's in the Wyndham system are:

Canterbury (SF): Designated (PR-Only) $3.18/K, Standard $2.86/K, includes property taxes but not FSP program fees.

Panama City (FL): Designated $3.28/K (going up 20% in 2011), Standard $2.90/K (going up 7.5%), property taxes are $0.14/K, does not include FSP program fees.

Bali Hai (HI): Designated $3.34/K, Standard $2.88/K, includes PrptyTx but not FSP PF's

South Lake Tahoe (NV): $3.26/K + FSP PF's

King Cotton Villas (SC): $2.99/K - (all Designated) + FSP PF's

National Harbor (DC): Designated $3.29/K, Standard $3.22/K + FSP PF's

There is a high likelihood that 2011 will see MF's increases on all of the locations that have designated UDI points.  PCB is a good example of how that is going to shift for 2011.  A Designated deed generally exceeds 1MM points and was originally sold as part of the PR Program (roughly about 2.5K of 800K owners are PR).  Unlikely to find in the resale market but it could happen -- but why would you want it?

Try to stay low on the MF's chart when purchasing but also keep in mind that it's sometimes prudent to purchase where you will actually GO also.  Due diligence is important because there are still a lot of FW and Converted FW deeds on the resale market and those come with certain limitations.  Not bad deeds, but you need to understand what you're getting.

Hope this helps!


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## timeos2 (Oct 15, 2010)

*Low today may be too high tomorrow*



knotez1 said:


> Which states have the lowest property taxes?
> 
> Is there a chart somewhere that might show properties with the lowest annual fees, maintenance fees etc.?



Taxes aren't set by the resort and will apply to all resorts in the area so knowing which are high or low while interesting isn't likely to swing things.

As for the properties with the absolute lowest fees aiming to buy those may be a mistake long term.  That happens because those resorts with the lowest fees, often the newest, have a long and proven history of large increases and/or special assessments due to under funding - especially for reserve items. When the need for upgrades or just the normal unit refresh rolls around at the 5 to 7 year mark the funds haven't been collected slowly but are needed immediately and the only answer is a SA and fee increase. 

At the resorts that fall in the mid-range of annual fees things tend to be more in balance and it is far less likely they will be hit with unplanned assessments or sudden jumps in base fees. Every resort struggles with the balance between needs and the fees to pay for them. The trend is always up and trying to guess which resort(s) will do the best at holding fees down is not a science - usually it is an educated guess at the very best and often just shear luck.


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## Beefnot (Oct 21, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> Taxes As for the properties with the absolute lowest fees aiming to buy those may be a mistake long term.  That happens because those resorts with the lowest fees, often the newest, have a long and proven history of large increases and/or special assessments due to under funding - especially for reserve items. When the need for upgrades or just the normal unit refresh rolls around at the 5 to 7 year mark the funds haven't been collected slowly but are needed immediately and the only answer is a SA and fee increase.



Wouldn't it still make sense to try to buy a resort with the lowest maintenance fees today as long as one doesn't significantly overpay for those low MFs?  Even if something in the $4 per 1k range today will end up at $6 per 1k like many other properties in, say, 10 years, then the average MF cost per year of that low MF cost resort during that 10-yr time span could be substantially lower than buying in directly to a higher cost, more "stable" MF resort.

In my mind, the real issues seem to be (a) how much one should overpay for that low MF property and (b) the relative importance of "home resort" to the buyer.  As for (b) I really don't much care at this point.  For (a), I have bid and lost on a couple of very low MF cost resorts thus far because of an aversion toward overpaying, although I'm secondguessing the "overpayment threshold" I set for those auctions.


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## JimMIA (Oct 21, 2011)

BellaWyn said:


> Florida property taxes are paid separate, and in addition to, the MF's.  Most all other locations in the Wyndham system roll up the PT's in the MF's.


Didn't that *change* this year or last?  

We don't own in Florida, but I swear I've read that's been changed to the same system as all the other Wyndham resorts.

If I'm correct and you check the spreadsheet, it will look like the Florida resorts had a big increase last year -- but it's really just a reflection of the change I'm pretty sure happened last year.


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## timeos2 (Oct 21, 2011)

Beefnot said:


> Wouldn't it still make sense to try to buy a resort with the lowest maintenance fees today as long as one doesn't significantly overpay for those low MFs?  Even if something in the $4 per 1k range today will end up at $6 per 1k like many other properties in, say, 10 years, then the average MF cost per year of that low MF cost resort during that 10-yr time span could be substantially lower than buying in directly to a higher cost, more "stable" MF resort.
> 
> In my mind, the real issues seem to be (a) how much one should overpay for that low MF property and (b) the relative importance of "home resort" to the buyer.  As for (b) I really don't much care at this point.  For (a), I have bid and lost on a couple of very low MF cost resorts thus far because of an aversion toward overpaying, although I'm secondguessing the "overpayment threshold" I set for those auctions.



Paying any premium to get a "low maintenance fee" is likely an error because except for the current billing cycle you have zero idea of what the next billing will be or if, as is especially likely if fees are held low too long, there is a Special Assessment waiting to bite you in a few months.  

On the other hand a resort with a long history of relatively stable fees - no big jumps but good maintenance, regular upgrades and renovations over an extended period of years - has a very good chance of remaining reasonable and is unlikely, barring any natural disasters, to suffer a SA.  

Of course they are all a bet - but those are the histories of low and mid-range fee resorts.  Chances are good it will repeat itself going forward. So paying anything extra to get a low annual fee today is usually not a good plan longer term.


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## JimMIA (Oct 21, 2011)

Beefnot said:


> For (a), I have bid and lost on a couple of very low MF cost resorts thus far because of an aversion toward overpaying, although I'm secondguessing the "overpayment threshold" I set for those auctions.


Your aversion to overpaying is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.  It means you resisted the powerful urge, in eBay auctions, to bid too high.

There's another thread on eBay auctions here that may be of some help, but my guess is your conservative mindset is a strength, not a weakness.


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## Beefnot (Oct 21, 2011)

Thanks Jim.  Im going to post a comment on my [overly?]conservative approach on that other thread.


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## ronparise (Oct 21, 2011)

JimMIA said:


> Didn't that *change* this year or last?
> 
> We don't own in Florida, but I swear I've read that's been changed to the same system as all the other Wyndham resorts.
> 
> If I'm correct and you check the spreadsheet, it will look like the Florida resorts had a big increase last year -- but it's really just a reflection of the change I'm pretty sure happened last year.



It did change


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## ronparise (Oct 21, 2011)

Another way to get low cost points. if to buy the converted fixed weeks...Buy 3 bedrooms or lockoffs in prime season

There is a thread somewhere here on tug that talks about a Kingsgate lockoff converted to 230000 points with  mf of about $800 a year ($3.50/1000 points) I own two converted fixed weeks with mf under $5/100 points


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## Ridewithme38 (Nov 11, 2011)

ronparise said:


> Another way to get low cost points. if to buy the converted fixed weeks...Buy 3 bedrooms or lockoffs in prime season
> 
> There is a thread somewhere here on tug that talks about a Kingsgate lockoff converted to 230000 points with  mf of about $800 a year ($3.50/1000 points) I own two converted fixed weeks with mf under $5/100 points



a 3br with a MF of $767.80 converts to 238,000 or about $3.22....But they're not easy to find and there are extra fees once you do convert...$3.50 sounds about right

BUT! If you find one....i'll be bidding against you


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## Passepartout (Nov 11, 2011)

Hey Ride! Welcome back. Where the heck have you been for almost 3 months? Curious minds want to know. Not that it's any of our business.

Jim


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## learnalot (Nov 11, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> a 3br with a MF of $767.80 converts to 238,000 or about $3.22....But they're not easy to find and there are extra fees once you do convert...$3.50 sounds about right
> 
> BUT! If you find one....i'll be bidding against you



Ride,

Welcome back!  People were noticing that we hadn't heard from you in awhile.  Hope all is well.


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## vacationhopeful (Nov 11, 2011)

Someone even started a "where is Ride" thread.


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## Ridewithme38 (Nov 11, 2011)

Passepartout said:


> Hey Ride! Welcome back. Where the heck have you been for almost 3 months? Curious minds want to know. Not that it's any of our business.
> 
> Jim





learnalot said:


> Ride,
> 
> Welcome back!  People were noticing that we hadn't heard from you in awhile.  Hope all is well.





vacationhopeful said:


> Someone even started a "where is Ride" thread.



I had to leave for awhile, all the niceness and good spirited discussion that came to amicable conclusions was starting to get to me! :hysterical: 

Nah, but seriously, i'm a man with a very short attention span, in those three months, I've literally joined dozens of other forums on subjects from e-cigarettes to Foreign investment to how to properly care for a goldfish....

But even with all the people I've talked to and forums I've joined....You always seem to return to the forums that make a real impression on you, those that not only have a strong information base, but have a strong core group of members that seem more a family then just a random group of strangers with shared interests


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