# Points presentation at MCV



## Ricci (Jul 11, 2010)

My husband and I went to a points presentation at Canyon Villas last week.
I won't repeat what's already been discussed in detail about the program.
I own at Harbour Point (silver week bought resale from Marriott) and Sunset Pointe (platinum week bought resale externally).  We were offered 1100 bonus points if we bought the minimum 1000 points for $9200.  We could enroll our weeks for an additional $800.  The point values given to my weeks are pitiful, and I also asked about the skimming of points.  I was told that Marriott gave this a lot of thought before point values were assigned and they know exactly what they are doing.
When I told the sales rep. I don't even have enough points to get back into my platinum season, she said that we've  had some really nice vacations in the last ten years, and now it's going to be more equitable for everyone.  Basically, the entire presentation had the undertone of now it's time for all the resale buyers to pay up.  
We don't exchange for points and we don't have lock-off fees.  Therefore, what we would be saving just by enrolling our weeks and paying the annual membership fee is minimal. We would still be trading our weeks through Interval. In our opinion,  this is just another revenue scheme for Marriott.  I love Marriott, but what do we get in return for our $900?   Hmmmm...I'm still thinking.

By the way, I also asked what happens if Marriott and the HOA decide to part ways down the road?  What then?  She said the only reason that's happened in the past is because the HOA didn't want to spend the money necessary to keep up to Marriott standards.  She said it woud be ridiculous for any HOA to vote in that direction. 
We politely declined.


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## Steve A (Jul 11, 2010)

We just had a presentation at the Ocean Club in Aruba July 2nd week. Good rep. Didn't push anything, and was in anyway insulting. Put it in context of buckets, which made it a little bit more understandable. We are interested in order to save money on trades and our lock-off. It would probably cost us a couple of hundred dollars a year less if we joined. However, we are not interested in the new points program, and intend to keep our deeded weeks. We got 15,000 Marriott points for attending the presentation. We'll do this again at the Monarch during Labor Day week; get another 15,000 points, and then join. We are major users of the points for the travel certificates.


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## wuv pooh (Jul 11, 2010)

Ricci said:


> We don't exchange for points and we don't have lock-off fees.  Therefore, what we would be saving just by enrolling our weeks and paying the annual membership fee is minimal. We would still be trading our weeks through Interval. In our opinion,  this is just another revenue scheme for Marriott.  I love Marriott, but what do we get in return for our $900?   Hmmmm...I'm still thinking.
> 
> By the way, I also asked what happens if Marriott and the HOA decide to part ways down the road?  What then?  She said the only reason that's happened in the past is because the HOA didn't want to spend the money necessary to keep up to Marriott standards.  She said it woud be ridiculous for any HOA to vote in that direction.
> We politely declined.



If that is your usage pattern for now and the future then it does not make sense for you to join.  Your only potential value is if you wish to take advantage of the new opportunity for stays less than 7 days.  You do not know how much it will cost to obtain this in the future, or if it will be offered.  If you are not concerned about that then there is no reason to enroll.

I agree with the rep about leaving.  That is exactly what happened at Streamside and the HOA delivered a special assessment, loss of Marriott exchange priority/benefits, and a resale value of $1.  I doubt that many other HOAs will follow that path.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 11, 2010)

Ricci said:


> . . . I own at Harbour Point (silver week bought resale from Marriott) and Sunset Pointe (platinum week bought resale externally).  We were offered 1100 bonus points if we bought the minimum 1000 points for $9200.  We could enroll our weeks for an additional $800.  The point values given to my weeks are pitiful, and I also asked about the skimming of points.  I was told that Marriott gave this a lot of thought before point values were assigned and they know exactly what they are doing.
> When I told the sales rep. I don't even have enough points to get back into my platinum season, she said that we've  had some really nice vacations in the last ten years, and now it's going to be more equitable for everyone.  Basically, the entire presentation had the undertone of now it's time for all the resale buyers to pay up. . . .



You ever get the impression that the Marriott sales people don't like us resale owners very much?  Hmmmm.  Where could I ever get an impression like that?  Wow.  Here is one good reason for enrolling: you get that big *R* off of your forehead!  Now, I won't have to feel like I should shout UNCLEAN! UNCLEAN! when I attend the presentations!!


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## EducatedConsumer (Jul 11, 2010)

Ricci said:


> My husband and I went to a points presentation at Canyon Villas last week.
> I won't repeat what's already been discussed in detail about the program.
> I own at Harbour Point (silver week bought resale from Marriott) and Sunset Pointe (platinum week bought resale externally).  We were offered 1100 bonus points if we bought the minimum 1000 points for $9200.  We could enroll our weeks for an additional $800.  The point values given to my weeks are pitiful, and I also asked about the skimming of points.  I was told that Marriott gave this a lot of thought before point values were assigned and they know exactly what they are doing.
> When I told the sales rep. I don't even have enough points to get back into my platinum season, she said that we've  had some really nice vacations in the last ten years, and now it's going to be more equitable for everyone.  Basically, the entire presentation had the undertone of now it's time for all the resale buyers to pay up.
> ...



How many points will Marriott give a Platinum Sunset Point week? Does Sunset Point have a Platinum Season or does Marriott call the summer season something else? I'd expect Marriott to put far less value on a Sunset Point summer week then a summer week at Grande Ocean, given that Sunset Point is a distance from the ocean.

Are you surprised that your silver Harbor Pointe week commands few points? 

I, personally, like the fact that Marriott has finally "weighted" their timeshare weeks, and has leveled the playing field. It made no sense to me that a winter season owner on Hilton Head had access to peak season inventory outside of flexchange.


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## sernow (Jul 11, 2010)

EducatedConsumer said:


> It made no sense to me that a winter season owner on Hilton Head had access to peak season inventory outside of flexchange.


 
Didn't make much sense to me either, but it seemed to make sense to the Marriott salesman because he made sure to emphasize it during my presentation some years ago at Surfwatch.


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## Cindala (Jul 11, 2010)

Steve A said:


> We got 15,000 Marriott points for attending the presentation. We'll do this again at the Monarch during Labor Day week; get another 15,000 points, and then join. We are major users of the points for the travel certificates.



15,000 points? We were only offered 10,000!


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## pwrshift (Jul 11, 2010)

I asked the Manor Club presenters if they were giving MR points to sit through a personal Points presentation and they just laughed and said no...unless I went for a complete tour, but as I already owned 3 of their plat weeks, I declined.

Brian


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## wa.mama (Jul 11, 2010)

Cindala said:


> 15,000 points? We were only offered 10,000!



20,000 given today at Marriott Kauai Lagoons.  The poor girl had to sit thru 2 hours of my questions though.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 11, 2010)

EducatedConsumer said:


> I, personally, like the fact that Marriott has finally "weighted" their timeshare weeks, and has leveled the playing field. It made no sense to me that a winter season owner on Hilton Head had access to peak season inventory outside of flexchange.



I still don't understand this mentality. I don't mean to direct that specifically to you as I see it in these boards a lot. It seems that a lot of people have issue with those of us that "traded up".

We own two gold Orlando week that gets about 2K points each. Those each won't get much in the new system. In the old system we were able to get larger units and trade week for week in to Hawaii and Ocean Pointe. That can't happen in points.

However in the II week for week system, I merely picked up weeks that no one else wanted. If you had a stronger trader and wanted them, you would have gotten those weeks instead of me. Since I got them, that meant you didn't want them, so why do you care that I got those "trade up" weeks?. They otherwise would have become breakage and sat empty or gone to someone during flexchange.

If II opted to give me those larger units or better season weeks then they have to feel that my week was worthy.

Understand I am not directing this at you directly, just trying to put my view in perspective.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 11, 2010)

Ricci said:


> My husband and I went to a points presentation at Canyon Villas last week.
> I won't repeat what's already been discussed in detail about the program.
> I own at Harbour Point (silver week bought resale from Marriott) and Sunset Pointe (platinum week bought resale externally).  We were offered 1100 bonus points if we bought the minimum 1000 points for $9200.  We could enroll our weeks for an additional $800.  The point values given to my weeks are pitiful, and I also asked about the skimming of points.  I was told that Marriott gave this a lot of thought before point values were assigned and they know exactly what they are doing.
> When I told the sales rep. I don't even have enough points to get back into my platinum season, she said that we've  had some really nice vacations in the last ten years, and now it's going to be more equitable for everyone.  Basically, the entire presentation had the undertone of now it's time for all the resale buyers to pay up.
> ...



Sounds to me like you're one of those 80% owners that Marriott calculated wouldn't be joining the program. There's going to be a good number of existing owners where this program just won't work.

As to the salesmen telling owner that Marriott is leveling the playing field, I don't see how that's going to help them convince someone to join. You've had great exchanges for years so now it's payback time? What sort of sales line is that?


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## puckmanfl (Jul 11, 2010)

good evening!!!

way to go Dioxide!!! well said!!!


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## kedler (Jul 12, 2010)

We went to a presentation at OceanWatch this past week and we were pleasantly surprised by a good rep and manager who didn't try to sell or gloss over our questions. We were intending on enrolling, but not at that moment; however, we genuinely liked the rep and felt like she was the best Marriott rep we'd come across so we enrolled with her. 

She told us that she was aware of what I referenced as Marriott skimming points and that it was her understanding that Marriott knew what it was doing. She said that as it had been explained to her Marriott was factoring in the costs of the new program and in particular the fact that the legacy weeks owners have a lower MF than the new points owners and we can still reserve our home weeks without the necessity of using the points so nothing is being taken away from us. 

When we asked questions - such as how the cruise points work if we want our kids to share a cabin or if the Marriott insurance plan we enrolled in shortly before the points program roll out - that she didn't know the answer to she said so and asked her manager who figured it out or told us he'd have to look into it. She did show us how the program worked and we had a discussion about whether it made sense for us to enroll and whether we should enroll some or all of our weeks. 

We received the following answers to questions we posed:


Cruises: What is the cost for 4 people? They thought that we'd be better off booking two cabins on points than trying to put 4 people in one because they've been told that their is no reduction for the 3rd & 4th person in the room
Insurance: If you enrolled in Marriott's ProtectMe insurance program your points reservations will be covered assuming that you enrolled at a level sufficient to cover your MFs for all your weeks and any points you buy which in our case they thought was the $175.
Multiple strategies: Can you mix using weeks reservations and points in the same year? You can do an internal (no fee except for Club dues) or external exchange (pay II fee) with one or more weeks and use points from another week to lengthen the internal reservation or use points to make another reservation and bank any left over points (except Plus Points which must be used by 12/31/11) and use those points the following year for other reservations or tone of the larger 
EOY Weeks: The points allocated to your week are split in half for determining your total yearly points for purposes of Premier and Premier Plus status because you can bank or borrow points - same reason you pay the Club Dues yearly even if you only own one EOY week.
 Waiving enrollment fees: If we enroll and purchase 1000 or more points Marriott will waive $695 of the enrollment fee but not the $1300 portion attributable to those resale weeks.

My husband and I looked at several ways to use the new program to meet our travel needs and we decided enrolling in the system worked for us. We exchange most of the time M to M and have two lockoff units plus our resale weeks will be grandfathered. Also we love to cruise and this option is much better than II's cruise exchange.

Additionally after looking at all the available options I think we are going to purchase the points needed to get us to Premier Status because it amounts to buying the other half of our EOY week, something we were unable to find on the resale market (which we can't enroll now even if we find it). As we'd only be purchasing slightly over the intro points package the MF isn't horrible and we feel we'll be covered for quite some time - even accounting for the inevitable changes to the points charts.


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## ldanna (Jul 12, 2010)

Ricci said:


> When I told the sales rep. I don't even have enough points to get back into my platinum season, she said that we've  had some really nice vacations in the last ten years, and now it's going to be more equitable for everyone.  Basically, the entire presentation had the undertone of now it's time for all the resale buyers to pay up.



Remember, skimming was for everyone, resales and developer.  

BTW, Dioxide, way to go. TUG is a very nice place with wonderful people, not a place for arrogance.


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## MikeM132 (Jul 12, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I still don't understand this mentality. I don't mean to direct that specifically to you as I see it in these boards a lot. It seems that a lot of people have issue with those of us that "traded up".
> 
> We own two gold Orlando week that gets about 2K points each...........



I'm in the same boat. I am just getting a feel for this new system and this is my take on it....Marriott's commanded a premium on II (and may still, depending on how much inventory II has down the road). I think Marriott is trying to "level the playing field" on Marriott to Marriott exchanges. I have a Grand Vista which has traded well (I try to reserve a good week). I also have 2 Hawaii units, which, so far have made me sick to exchange. Why? Because I am paying a HUGE maint. fee for them and they are in high demand. I am trading down for most vacations at a steep cost (both in maint and in buy-in price). Now it seems fairer for internal trades (although they seem to have taken away the potential advantage of booking a good week with points trades). However, I believe I can still book a good week, see what it might bring on II then later covert to points and drop that week. The potential problem for us without super high-demand resorts is how the new points system may reduce our chances of getting a Marriott exchange someplace else. The 199.00 fee, for me, is a sweet deal. I spend more than that every year on II dues and fees.


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## tiel (Jul 12, 2010)

*Pooints presentation tidbit*

We also attended a points presentation at MOW over the weekend, and most of the info I've seen discussed here was presented there.

HOWEVER, the new tidbit, which I either didn't comprehend before or which was never presented before here, is this:  if you are weeks owner and you enroll, then you convert one or more weeks to points, you may redeem those points ONLY for the following:  anything in the World Vacation Collection (like cruises and tours), and locations related to points deposited in the "points inventory bucket" by other weeks owners.

In other words, you will NOT have access to the "weeks" in the points inventory which came from the trust, like unsold weeks from Marco Island and Oceana Plams, and, of course, Kauai Lagoons and any other resorts yet to be built.  To get access to those resorts, you have to a buy a minimal number of points (currently 1000).  Then your points from any converted weeks can be redeemed for any resorts in the poiints inventory bucket.

Don't know if we just missed this nuance before, or if it was not brought up before, but this really opened our eyes.  We still didn't buy any points, but now we are considering it, which we weren't before.

Did we just miss this?  :zzz:


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## Chip (Jul 12, 2010)

Ricci said:


> We were offered 1100 bonus points if we bought the minimum 1000 points for $9200.



Is the $9200/1000 points the going rate for the new points system or does it change by resort/season?


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## FlyerBobcat (Jul 12, 2010)

tiel said:


> HOWEVER, the new tidbit, which I either didn't comprehend before or which was never presented before here, is this: if you are weeks owner and you enroll, then you convert one or more weeks to points, you may redeem those points ONLY for the following: anything in the World Vacation Collection (like cruises and tours), and locations related to points deposited in the "points inventory bucket" by other weeks owners.
> 
> In other words, you will NOT have access to the "weeks" in the points inventory which came from the trust, like unsold weeks from Marco Island and Oceana Plams, and, of course, Kauai Lagoons and any other resorts yet to be built. To get access to those resorts, you have to a buy a minimal number of points (currently 1000). Then your points from any converted weeks can be redeemed for any resorts in the poiints inventory bucket.
> Don't know if we just missed this nuance before, or if it was not brought up before, but this really opened our eyes.  We still didn't buy any points, but now we are considering it, which we weren't before.
> ...



Or... is this really true???


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## wuv pooh (Jul 12, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I still don't understand this mentality. I don't mean to direct that specifically to you as I see it in these boards a lot. It seems that a lot of people have issue with those of us that "traded up".
> 
> We own two gold Orlando week that gets about 2K points each. Those each won't get much in the new system. In the old system we were able to get larger units and trade week for week in to Hawaii and Ocean Pointe. That can't happen in points.
> 
> ...




I don't think anyone has an issue with trading up, but you have to be realistic about it.  Some people are screaming about the new system as if it is some kind of moral outrage and denial of their rights to trade their $10k week for a $40k week "like the salesman promised".

Although the points system directly negatively effects me, I think it is hypocritical to feel outraged.  The old system was used to benefit a small number of owners at the expense of the majority.  Whether it was through lack of understanding, flexibility, resourcefulness, etc.  does not really matter.  Every uptrade requires a downtrade.  It is a zero sum system.

When Marriott sold every week for approximately the same $$$ then the weeks were truly comparable.  When Marriott sold weeks during the real estate boom for 40, 50, even 80+k per week  then my Horizons gold is truly not comparable.

I understand why Marriott wants to take better control of its inventory and wants to reset trading on a more comparable basis.  They want to maximize the perceived 'fairness' for everyone, but especially for the people who spent the big bucks directly with them.  I believe the new points charts are a more direct relationship to the relative values of the week.

Tuggers have always know that July 4th was worth a lot more than Nov 3rd even though they are both Platinum.  We reaped that value from the other owners.  Now there is another system where the values are available for anyone to see.  This creates new opportunities, which is why I will enroll and keep my options open, but it is just a different way to distribute the value over more owners.  The weeks will now go to those willing to PAY for them, vs. those who get lucky or get an II rep who wants to earn a commission.  I believe that is why Marriott is doing it, not some evil scheme.


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## GrayFal (Jul 12, 2010)

Chip said:


> Is the $9200/1000 points the going rate for the new points system or does it change by resort/season?


There is no more resort/season. Points are in a trust and all have the same price/maint fee associated with it.


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## GrayFal (Jul 12, 2010)

MikeM132 said:


> The 199.00 fee, for me, is a sweet deal. I spend more than that every year on II dues and fees.


As I understand it, this will be a "corporate account" similar to Starwood, that can only be used for enrolled Marriott weeks - so if you have any other ownerships or un-enrolled Marriott weeks that trade thru II, you will still need a 'regular' II account.


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## Ricci (Jul 12, 2010)

I bought a resale from Marriott.....and now with the points system, I can't even book a different week into my OWN resort in my designated season.  How fair is that?  Marriott is a business and this a just another way to generate revenue.  Bottom line.  Fairness has nothing to do with it.


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## DB-Wis (Jul 12, 2010)

Ricci said:


> I bought a resale from Marriott.....and now with the points system, I can't even book a different week into my OWN resort in my designated season.  How fair is that?  Marriott is a business and this a just another way to generate revenue.  Bottom line.  Fairness has nothing to do with it.



Ricci, did you buy a fixed week?  If you own a floating week (as most Marriott time shares are), why would you use destination points to reserve your week at your home resort in your season?  You can get the week you were promised (subject to the availability issues that always existed) without using destination points.  

It's different, of course, if you own a fixed week.  But even there, you bought the right to that week -- not a right to any week in the season.


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## ckcover (Jul 12, 2010)

We attended 2 presentations when in Hawaii early last month. One at Kauai lagoons just ONE day before the switch over, and got the same old spiel about buying weeks, EXCEPT we had to do so today because the new system was going in place. Now, why would we buy, not knowing what comparison to make to the new system?? When we moved onto Koa Olina we were one of the first to hear about the new system. Basically, the same presentation as reported by others on this board.

We should have bought! They were offering 1 wk 2 BR around $45k with 2 daily rounds of golf. What a view!

Many questions linger about the new system, but here are some thoughts.

Look at Post #16. We were lead to believe, any new sales will be in "club" points (that's what they are calling them) Yes, Marco Island and Oceana Palms, as well as the new tower in Koa Olina, and Kauai lagoons will have to be in the new system. I think it will take a while before new inventory catches up with the old. I think you can try and trade into through II. Also, I was not aware that you had to purchase a min # of points to gain access to the new system. We were lead to believe that our existing properties would convert to the points in the new system.

They are selling the new system as a 4th dimension. Existing owners have all the same, except a new 4th option to use their vacation props. 

One question though, as an existing owner, I have a real estate deed on my 2Marriott properties and pay an annual maintenance fee that covers taxes, insurance, etc, etc. I understand this will continue. I assumed from the presentation I heard, that I would be given this 4th option to use as exchanging my existing units for the club points to use in the following year. Have to make choice by EOY on whether to exchange or not. Can anyone confirm this?

Club points convert to rewards points at a 32 X 1 ratio

Club points (which are really an interest in a real estate trust as we understand it) have an annual  maintenance fee of 40 cents on the dollar. 

Oh, one annual fee of $168 covers all the others (II annual fee, exchange fees, lockoff fees, cancel fees, etc) Apparently this is a big gripe of owners getting nickle and dimed on fees. 

Club points are sold at min 1,000 and in 250 increments thereafter. 

We have the impression that owners intend to use their trade a weekly blocks, it may make sense to wait and observe a bit before switching to the new system. I think it is a preference and how folks intend use their weeks. 

Regards


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## tlwmkw (Jul 12, 2010)

*Is post 16 above correct?*

I've been to a sales presentation and they said legacy weeks trading for points have the same access to all resorts (now and even future ones to be built) that the new points buyers have.  The sales man said "points are points" and there would be not difference.  Now Tiel in the above post says that that isn't true- has anyone else heard this?  If it is true then that would be a big negative for legacy owners who convert.  I have to say that I think this was just a sales person spinning things a bit but wonder if others have heard this too.

tlwmkw


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## dbbk94404 (Jul 12, 2010)

tlwmkw said:


> I've been to a sales presentation and they said legacy weeks trading for points have the same access to all resorts (now and even future ones to be built) that the new points buyers have.  The sales man said "points are points" and there would be not difference.  Now Tiel in the above post says that that isn't true- has anyone else heard this?  If it is true then that would be a big negative for legacy owners who convert.  I have to say that I think this was just a sales person spinning things a bit but wonder if others have heard this too.
> 
> tlwmkw



This is what I was told at the sales presentation (don't really know anymore on what and who to believe  ) that legacy owners would have to "reload" (buy more points) if they wanted the full benefits of the new system i.e. access to the new resorts.


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## hipslo (Jul 12, 2010)

tiel said:


> We also attended a points presentation at MOW over the weekend, and most of the info I've seen discussed here was presented there.
> 
> HOWEVER, the new tidbit, which I either didn't comprehend before or which was never presented before here, is this:  if you are weeks owner and you enroll, then you convert one or more weeks to points, you may redeem those points ONLY for the following:  anything in the World Vacation Collection (like cruises and tours), and locations related to points deposited in the "points inventory bucket" by other weeks owners.
> 
> ...



this is inconsistent with marriott's own description of the program on its website, and the legal documentation.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Jul 12, 2010)

tlwmkw said:


> I've been to a sales presentation and they said legacy weeks trading for points have the same access to all resorts (now and even future ones to be built) that the new points buyers have.  The sales man said "points are points" and there would be not difference.  Now Tiel in the above post says that that isn't true- has anyone else heard this?  If it is true then that would be a big negative for legacy owners who convert.  I have to say that I think this was just a sales person spinning things a bit but wonder if others have heard this too.
> 
> tlwmkw





Maybe DaveM can comment on this for the benefit of all of us......


.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 12, 2010)

kedler said:


> . . . [*] Waiving enrollment fees: If we enroll and purchase 1000 or more points Marriott will waive $695 of the enrollment fee but not the $1300 portion attributable to those resale weeks.
> . . .



I'm not sure I understand this statement.  I own a resale week, and Marriott waived the enrollment fee for me because I purchased extra points.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 12, 2010)

tiel said:


> . . . HOWEVER, the new tidbit, which I either didn't comprehend before or which was never presented before here, is this:  if you are weeks owner and you enroll, then you convert one or more weeks to points, you may redeem those points ONLY for the following:  anything in the World Vacation Collection (like cruises and tours), and locations related to points deposited in the "points inventory bucket" by other weeks owners.
> 
> In other words, you will NOT have access to the "weeks" in the points inventory which came from the trust, like unsold weeks from Marco Island and Oceana Plams, and, of course, Kauai Lagoons and any other resorts yet to be built.  To get access to those resorts, you have to a buy a minimal number of points (currently 1000).  Then your points from any converted weeks can be redeemed for any resorts in the poiints inventory bucket. . . .



I'm pretty sure this information is false.  If you enroll and trade your week(s) for points, you have access to any inventory in the Trust, plus any inventory traded for points by other enrolled members, plus any inventory exchanged for MRP, plus any II inventory that matches a search put in by the Club Program Manager on your behalf.


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## DanCali (Jul 12, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> I'm not sure I understand this statement.  I own a resale week, and Marriott waived the enrollment fee for me because I purchased extra points.



I believe their policy is to waive only up to $695 if you buy the 1000 points (i.e., whatever the cost to enroll is for retail owners). If they waived the full $1995 for you then you may have gotten lucky...


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## hotcoffee (Jul 12, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I believe their policy is to waive only up to $695 if you buy the 1000 points (i.e., whatever the cost to enroll is for retail owners). If they waived the full $1995 for you then you may have gotten lucky...



I paid no enrollment fee at all.


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## DanCali (Jul 12, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> I paid no enrollment fee at all.



My guess is that you bought very soon after the program launched and the person who processed your paperwork was not that well informed on the policy... 

I was also told in a presentation that they waive only up to the retail enrollment fee if you buy points. It could be that this was changed since then, but I doubt it.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 12, 2010)

DanCali said:


> My guess is that you bought very soon after the program launched and the person who processed your paperwork was not that well informed on the policy...
> 
> I was also told in a presentation that they waive only up to the retail enrollment fee if you buy points. It could be that this was changed since then, but I doubt it.



Well, if the rep made a mistake, it's too late now.  The papers are all signed.


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## MikeM132 (Jul 12, 2010)

This salesman saying you have to buy in to see points inventory seems to conflict with everything on Marriotts site. Call my cynical, but this sounds like another sales tactic. 
Now that they won't have resale buyers to pick on (like saying you'll be left out in the cold under the new system, which turned out to be false) they have to pressure the rest of us to buy some points so we can be full members, too. They already got 3 commissions from me. I guess that Lexus needs replacement.


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## BocaBoy (Jul 12, 2010)

Post #16 is totally INCORRECT.  It is contrary to what I have heard from all Marriott people I have talked to and also contrary to everything on the subject that has been published by Marriott.  This is simply fact, but think about it.  If Post #16 were true, those trust resorts would be largely empty.


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## tlwmkw (Jul 12, 2010)

Sounds like we weren't alone in hearing that the tidbit in post 16 was false.  Would like to hear this confirmed though.  I can't talk to anymore of these Marriott people because I'm sure they'll just give more misinformation. So Dave M.  If you see this please ask about the information in post 16 above that was submitted by Tiel.  Perhaps your sources will be more reliable.

Hope it's just more sales spin to sell more of the new points.

tlwmkw


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## tiel (Jul 12, 2010)

We want what we were told to be false!  That's why we posted what we were told here, so we could get to the bottom of this.  It seemed to contradict what we understood previously, but that doesn't count for much in this new program!  Every time we think we've got it, some new quirk seems to pop up.  

Also, we were told the 1100 pluspoints you get for buying 1000 club points assumes you have NOT yet enrolled.  So, if you have already enrolled when you buy your points, you will get only 300 pluspoints for your purchase, for a total of 1100 points for enrolling and purchasing.  And the closing costs for purchasing range roughly between $415 and 500(??), depending on whether you finace your purchase thru Marriott or not.

Anyway, I hope DaveM or some other knowledgable TUGger can get to the bottom of this conversion/"limited" access issue for us.  It seems wrong, but...


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## kedler (Jul 13, 2010)

tiel said:


> We want what we were told to be false!  That's why we posted what we were told here, so we could get to the bottom of this.  It seemed to contradict what we understood previously, but that doesn't count for much in this new program!  Every time we think we've got it, some new quirk seems to pop up.
> 
> Also, we were told the 1100 pluspoints you get for buying 1000 club points assumes you have NOT yet enrolled.  So, if you have already enrolled when you buy your points, you will get only 300 pluspoints for your purchase, for a total of 1100 points for enrolling and purchasing.  And the closing costs for purchasing range roughly between $415 and 500(??), depending on whether you finace your purchase thru Marriott or not.
> 
> Anyway, I hope DaveM or some other knowledgable TUGger can get to the bottom of this conversion/"limited" access issue for us.  It seems wrong, but...


It is false. Here is the information from the Enrollment Agreement which you can get by logging on to your online Marriott account:



> 3.	For administrative convenience, MVCEC has assigned each of the allocated weekly Use Periods in each of the Accommodations at the Resort symbolic units of use comparison ("Exchange Points") _which will enable Exchange Members to reserve use of Accommodations in other MVCEC-affiliated resorts._ Owner will be eligible to submit one or more of the entire use weeks associated with the Timeshare Interest with MVCEC at such time as MVCEC begins accepting submissions as determined by MVCEC, in MVCEC's sole and absolute discretion, and ending September 30.
> All submissions must be in whole week increments. _When Owner elects to submit a use week with MVCEC, Owner will receive a Distribution consisting of Exchange Points associated with such use week, so that Owner can use such Exchange Points to make a reservation of Accommodations at MVCEC-affiliated resorts, subject to availability. _Once an Exchange Member elects to submit a use week with MVCEC, the election is final and such Exchange Member will relinquish the Exchange Member's use week for the given year (e.g., the Exchange Member can not convert the Distribution back to the submitted use week). Use of Exchange Points is subject to the terms and conditions of the Exchange Procedures. The Program is operated by MVCEC on a space available, first come, first served basis. MVCEC CANNOT GUARANTEE THAT A SPECIFIC RESERVATION REQUEST WILL BE CONFIRMED.


 [emphasis supplied]

I think the first thing the sales people should have done was read all the documents!


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## hotcoffee (Jul 13, 2010)

I also re-scanned all of the Public Offering documents, and I could find no distinctions regarding reserving Marriott inventory for enrolled members versus those who own only points.  In a couple of places they are called "Trust Members" for points owners and "Exchange Members" for enrolled weeks owners.  But, when it came to reservations, it just said "members" without making any distinction.


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## dbbk94404 (Jul 13, 2010)

I could be wrong and please correct me if I am, but I think, the key words are "MVCEC affilated resorts" for exchange members (enrolled only). And for trust members (bought points), there is no mention of "affilated resorts" when it comes to what you can exchange into (unless I missed it somewhere). Since MVCEC stands for Marriott Vacation Club Exchange Company and is not the the trust itself, it is possible to have a property in the trust and not be affilated. So, the $9,200 + MF question is "are all resorts going to be affilated?" Or am I thinking WAY too much into this and have too much time on my hands?


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## wa.mama (Jul 13, 2010)

tiel said:


> In other words, you will NOT have access to the "weeks" in the points inventory which came from the trust, like unsold weeks from Marco Island and Oceana Plams, and, of course, Kauai Lagoons and any other resorts yet to be built.  To get access to those resorts, you have to a buy a minimal number of points (currently 1000).  Then your points from any converted weeks can be redeemed for any resorts in the poiints inventory bucket.
> 
> Don't know if we just missed this nuance before, or if it was not brought up before, but this really opened our eyes.  We still didn't buy any points, but now we are considering it, which we weren't before.
> 
> Did we just miss this?  :zzz:



From our recent presentation, I think this info may be incorrect.  Trust owners will be treating the Trust properties as their "home" resorts.  They get some kind of internal preference in booking, and we "legacy" owners can use destination points to trade into the Trust properties but at a lower priority than the new owners.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 13, 2010)

wa.mama said:


> From our recent presentation, I think this info may be incorrect.  Trust owners will be treating the Trust properties as their "home" resorts.  They get some kind of internal preference in booking, and we "legacy" owners can use destination points to trade into the Trust properties but at a lower priority than the new owners.



It is difficult for me to imagine this "priority".  If a points-only owner and an enrolled member using points both request a 1 BR OV Ko Olina at the same exact instant in time (and assuming they both have enough points), then maybe the priority would take effect.  But what are the odds of that happening (given that presumably the reservation system is computerized)?  I assume that as reservation requests are received, they are processed.  Since there is a lot of Ko Olina inventory in the Trust, I would assume that both requests would be filled in the order received (unless some type of percentage rule precludes one or both of them from getting their request filled).


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## Cindala (Jul 13, 2010)

wuv pooh said:


> The weeks will now go to those willing to PAY for them, vs. those who get lucky or get an II rep who wants to earn a commission.  I believe that is why Marriott is doing it, not some evil scheme.



#1...Haven't we already PAID for our weeks? It's basically the weeks will go to those who are willing to pay more money on top of their original purchase.

#2...The II reps earn a commission for completing an exchange? This is an interesting revelation for me.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 13, 2010)

Cindala said:


> #1...Haven't we already PAID for our weeks? It's basically the weeks will go to those who are willing to pay more money on top of their original purchase.
> 
> #2...The II reps earn a commission for completing an exchange? This is an interesting revelation for me.



There's a lot of paranoia about how the new system will affect those that elect to remain in the old system. Like so many things in life, I think this is more irrational fear than anything based in fact. Yes there is a change and change will likely affect the way.....or the options.....available for exchange. That's life in timesharing. I remember when the word on these forums was to buy a cheap South African week and use that week to exchange into the Marriott's of the timeshare world. Times have changed and, while that still works to some degree, you certainly don't see all the posts urging owners to take that particular route to great vacations. 

At this point, I see no hard evidence that the new system is going to have any drastic effect on the old system. Eventually this will certainly have some affect since a majority of the newest resorts will be in the land trust and any new builds will be 100% in the land trust. I believe the older resorts will remain primarily in the weeks exchange system, must as they've been all along.

While there will be an eventual shift in how we most efficiently obtain the exchanges we desire, I believe this will be a very slow process and nothing or real substance will be noticable to the typical owner for over 5 years. Even the legacy owners who join won't be putting 100% of those weeks into the points program. While we intend on joining, as it stands now, we'll rarely use the points option and, when we do, it will only be with our Las Vegas ownership.

If you really want to see the affect a points system has on existing timeshares, all you have to do is look at the AP programs effect on the Hawaiian and Las Vegas inventory. Most (if not all) of those resorts have been participating in the Asian Pacific points progam for a number of years. Grand Chateau in Vegas has been a member of the AP program since the begining. My bet is that, if you look for exchanges into Grand Chateau via I.I., you'll find plenty of availability throughout the year. In fact, I KNOW you will because I follow my home resorts to some small degree. 

You have paid for you week. Marriott is not taking any options available to you before June 20th, 2010 away. They are simply adding an option. That option will be attractive to some for various reasons. Some will want/need the points due to changes in how they can vacation. Some will use it as a less expensive way to upgrade their ownership (buying enough points for the OF view rather than OS or island/garden view. Some, like myself, will use it for the one fee vs ala carte pricing. In the end there will be more options and new ways to maximize your ownership should your particular needs change but, I don't believe that anyone is going to lose anything they paid for with their original purchase.


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## puckmanfl (Jul 14, 2010)

good morning all...

This post is for Tiel and the answer to post #16...  The news ain't pretty.


I just finished my phone call with advocacy department after learning this from my guru...
It works as follows.  
There are 2 separate pols of "points" inventory.

Pool #1 consists of points generated from all of the "deeds" placed in the trust on 6/20/10 + points generated from 'deeds" on  newly acquired properties or resorts.

Pool #2  consists of points that enrolled or non enrolled legacy owners convert to MR points, points from units that enrolled owners convert to Destination Club points and points generated from units that are in delinquencies...

on the opening day of trading (7/26) Trust owners (new points purchasers) have access to BOTH pools #1 and #2,  Exchange owners (legacy owners that have enrolled and converted to points) have access to only Pool #2.  

Here is where it gets tricky!!!  If and ONLY if a Trust owner grabs a reservation from Pool #2, then a reservation becomes available to an Exchange owner from Pool #1.  Legacy point users have to wait until Trust owners make moves before Legacy point users get access to Trust inventory...

In English, at first Legacy owners using points only have access to units turned in by other owners for DC or MR points or delinquencies.  Trust owners have access to ALL inventory in POINTS (pools 1 and 2)

Tombo and Dan, you can now proceed with the "I told you so's"....

Let the games begin...

I now join the enrollees. that will play in II and will hope to recoup my fees by saving on lock offs etc.  In 2012 I will unenroll and just play as before...


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## windje2000 (Jul 14, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning all...
> 
> This post is for Tiel and the answer to post #16...  The news ain't pretty.
> 
> ...



This is new news

You should start a new thread with this post.


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## puckmanfl (Jul 14, 2010)

good morning....

I have no idea how to start a new thread...

Perhaps Denise, DaveM or yourself can help...

This is news....


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## puckmanfl (Jul 14, 2010)

good morning...

It gets better...

I convert my GV week to 3775 points.  MVCD then rents it for an average of 4100 pts (my season avg).  After getting "skimmed", which I am told is my fee for the privilege of flexibility, definite travel days and short stays.  I then find out that as a "legacy" owner" my points aren't as "good" as the poor sap who paid a bunch more yesterday for the same points... !!!!

Bring it on Tombo and Dan, I eat my humble pie...You guys were correct!!!


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## pwrshift (Jul 14, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> ...I now join the enrollees. that will play in II and will hope to recoup my fees by saving on lock offs etc. In 2012 I will unenroll and just play as before...


 
Can you not 'unenroll' right now?  The program hasn't even started yet.

Brian


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## puckmanfl (Jul 14, 2010)

good morning....

don't know....  electronically signed my paperwork...

still can't find anything in the documents that says this is how it works!!!!

Am I the only TUGGER remotely concerned regarding this!!!!  I feel llike there really is a black helicopter coming!!!!


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## windje2000 (Jul 14, 2010)

deleted - rethinking


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## Whirl (Jul 14, 2010)

*Times change and so must we. Its not personal.*



wuv pooh said:


> I don't think anyone has an issue with trading up, but you have to be realistic about it.  Some people are screaming about the new system as if it is some kind of moral outrage and denial of their rights to trade their $10k week for a $40k week "like the salesman promised".
> 
> Although the points system directly negatively effects me, I think it is hypocritical to feel outraged.  The old system was used to benefit a small number of owners at the expense of the majority.  Whether it was through lack of understanding, flexibility, resourcefulness, etc.  does not really matter.  Every uptrade requires a downtrade.  It is a zero sum system.
> 
> ...



Well, well written post. Especially from someone who even feels that the system negatively impacts them. Objectivity is the key and realizing what Marriott did and did not promise us 

We have been able to exploit the system for years. Through both RCI and II,  I have had cheap resale weeks and have gotten some phenomenal trades, but I was working a system with some inherent inequities that were only exploitable by a small minority ( most probably here on TUG!).  For every great up-trade I got, some-one else who paid retail and had high maintanence fees and doesn't know the system as well, had to settle for something less than they wanted and less than the value of what they gave up. Even after I initially bought resale I bought direct from Marriot and ahve never regretted. Now as time has gone on, my Marriott weeks are the ones I rely on the most for my families' vacations. The others I own are jsut supplementa;.rentals, or because I have some inexplicable sentimental attachment to them.

Now the system is being updated to be more equitable and provide greater flexibilty to the majority and is really as it should always have been. Marriott never promised us anything other than access to our week and season and view purchased. That's it and that hasn't changed. 

The Marriott Vacation Club program docs state that the affiliation with Interval is subject to change and that they have the right to leave interval and create their own exchange system...that is written right in the program documents when we bought our Barony week in 1999 ( or was it 2000?)...just read them last night again.  So...its here now.


The timeshare industry has been in a state of continual evolution and I have had to change my  timesharing and vacationing strategies and holdings over the years as a result. 

Same thing now. It's another change.  I have 2 choices: I can embrace it and make it work for me or carry a grudge the rest of my vacationing days....no thanks on the latter. 

MArriott never promised to run these resorts that we love to visit in perpetuity ( Barony docs say 5 renewable 5 year terms and then they will reassess after that) or if the business wasn't viable. Timeshare owners are only on of several different stakeholders to whom they must cater, first and foremost their equity and bond holders that provide capital for their businesses. 

Their timeshare model has been heavily linked to the real estate market and we all know what happed there. As as result, like so many individuals ( maybe even some of out beloved TUGgers) that find themselves underwater and facing forecosure, they have to think creatively about how to stay afloat and keep their  multitude of stakeholders happy. 

As such, they will do their best to cater to the most important and the majority of interested parties. Even if you never join the points program and you are not among those who can or are willing to make it work, you don't want Marriott to fail or we will ALL be sitting on some pretty worthless timeshare weeks or face being sold off to another survivor in the industry...and there really are not too many, from my vantage point, that I want to be involved with...I have owned my fair share of varied ownerships and programs over the years and Marriott suits me best.  So I don't see that there is any choice but to roll with it.

Keep vacationing folks. The landscape is changing, its just business....find a way to enjoy the view!


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## Ricci (Jul 14, 2010)

WOW....isn't it amazing they didn't mention that in my points presentation?  How convenient.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 14, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning all...
> 
> This post is for Tiel and the answer to post #16...  The news ain't pretty.
> 
> ...



Up until this post we were all so worried that all Points owners would be able to swoop in and take all the "best" Weeks, right?  That for certain high-demand intervals, the availability would be diluted for Weeks owners?

And now today we're going to start worrying that IF Purchased Points owners DON'T swoop in and take all those Weeks, then Enrolled Weeks owners will find no availability of the intervals conveyed to the Trust?

Is there a reason to think now that Purchased Points owners will NOT be looking to stay at the existing resorts which have had no intervals conveyed to the Trust?  If so, then there's a reason to worry.  If not ...


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## jimf41 (Jul 14, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> In English, at first Legacy owners using points only have access to units turned in by other owners for DC or MR points or delinquencies.  Trust owners have access to ALL inventory in POINTS (pools 1 and 2)



If this is true then there will be four pools of inventory.

Pool #1 Inventory deposited into the trust by Marriott. Available only to trust members, initially.

Pool #2 Inventory obtained from enrolled members converting their weeks to points. Available to trust members and enrolled members who convert their weeks to points.

Pool #3 Inventory owned by weeks owners. Available to non-enrolled owners and enrolled owners using their week as a week.

Pool #4 Same as pool #1 but now it's available to trust members and enrolled members to the extent that enrolled members convert as in pool #2.

I remember a Star Trek episode where Capt. Kirk invented a card game called Furbin that had similar rules.

If this is in fact true I think it will be a similar policy to that of the MRP's associated as a bonus for buying a TS direct from MVCI. These points were not allowed to be used for redemption in an MVCI TS, only in the hotels. In actuality this was impossible to keep track of for people who generated a lot of points from other means and was not enforced as far as my usage. When I used points to stay in Marbella a few years ago I asked the rep if I had enough non TS bonus points to make the reservation and he said that while MR did have that policy they did not track in any way and that he would have no idea what points were being used for hotel stays and what points were used for TS stays. AS long as I had the total I could use them any way I wanted.


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## Whirl (Jul 14, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning....
> 
> don't know....  electronically signed my paperwork...
> 
> ...



I would be concerned about it as well. But still unconfirmed, so I am not going to jump off any buildings over it at this ( or any ) point.  There have been more misinformation than good reliable information imparted on calls with Marriott and sales presentations ( that has never changed)...so I think we just have to wait for something reliable to come out somehow. 

I do have to say thank you for your digging and the tenacity of  so many here on TUG to seek knowledge and truth. Despite much emotion and sometimes irrational debates, that is what TUG is here for... It has helped me shape and maximize my vacationing for well over a decade!


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## puckmanfl (Jul 14, 2010)

good morning

Sue ...

the concern is that Trust owners CAN swoop in and take good legacy weeks AND take trust inventory but a legacy point player cannot swoop in and take 'trust" inventory...

Hypothetically, an owner returns a park city ski week for DC points.  Now a trust owner AND a legacy points player can go after it.  The legacy points player is more likely to go after this primo week, because they cannot go into "trust" inventory!!!!

I believe it was the understanding in TUG land that points (exchange and trust) players had access to ALL points inventory. Now you have 2 distinct pools of point inventory!!!

There is good inventory in both pools.  I believe this system will lead to a decrease in legacy owners(even enrollees) converting their weeks to points, bringing the system to gridlock!!!

MVCD is stating that a trust point is more valuable then a legacy point.  This is after getting skimmed 5% to do it...


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## aka Julie (Jul 14, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> If this is true then there will be four pools of inventory.
> 
> Pool #1 Inventory deposited into the trust by Marriott. Available only to trust members, initially.
> 
> ...



Can they make it any more complicated?  The Average Joe/Jane who is not a TUGGer will have no clue.


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## windje2000 (Jul 14, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Up until this post we were all so worried that all Points owners would be able to swoop in and take all the "best" Weeks, right?  That for certain high-demand intervals, the availability would be diluted for Weeks owners?
> 
> And now today we're going to start worrying that IF Purchased Points owners DON'T swoop in and take all those Weeks, then Enrolled Weeks owners will find no availability of the intervals conveyed to the Trust?
> 
> Is there a reason to think now that Purchased Points owners will NOT be looking to stay at the existing resorts which have had no intervals conveyed to the Trust?  If so, then there's a reason to worry.  If not ...



Actually Sue, I think the problems here are that 

1.  Getting complete and accurate information with which to analyze the new system has been like peeling an onion, and 

2.  given the first impression the skim sends most people, they expect the worst.  

Those issues and their effect on customer attitudes rest squarely on Marriott's doorstep.


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## Cindala (Jul 14, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning....
> 
> I have no idea how to start a new thread...
> 
> ...




Definitely news that deserves it's own thread.  Log into Tug and copy your original post. Then at the top of the Marriott Resort System page, click on the New Thread button (top left).  Paste your original post and give it a title. Then you are good to go.


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## Ricci (Jul 14, 2010)

Unless potential enrollees read this thread, I don't believe they will realize they don't have access to the trust pool without buying points.  It was never mentioned in my presentation.  I was told if I enrolled my weeks(which I didn't), and converted them to points, I would have access to all point inventory.


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## DanCali (Jul 14, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> Tombo and Dan, you can now proceed with the "I told you so's"....



While I am sure there will be more than enough opportunities for "I told you so's" in the next few months, I am skeptical this is one of them.

What you describe is so bad that I am just speechless... In fact, I'd venture to say it's more likely that your guru is wrong rather than this being correct. Otherwise, the points system is truly pointless (pun intended).


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## puckmanfl (Jul 14, 2010)

good morning

Dan...

I ran this up the chain at customer advocacy.  I can't imagine anyone in corporate would confirm such craziness unless it was true!!!!

I gave my guru 3 days to run this up the chain of command and "say it aint so" but no such luck...

please start the I told you so's...


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## windje2000 (Jul 14, 2010)

DanCali said:


> While I am sure there will be more than enough opportunities for "I told you so's" in the next few months, I am skeptical this is one of them.
> 
> What you describe is so bad that I am just speechless... In fact, I'd venture to say it's more likely that your guru is wrong rather than this being correct. Otherwise, the points system is truly pointless (pun intended).



Pointless?  That's the problem!!! 

Buy some points! Get full access!  

That's the point D) of the program.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 14, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning
> 
> Sue ...
> 
> ...



Hi Puck!

I would expect the gridlock that you mention ONLY if Trust owners DON'T exchange out of the Trust intervals and into the Legacy intervals.  Like I said, yesterday we were all so worried that Trust owners would dilute our Weeks inventory by doing exactly that - why are we now worrying that they WON'T?

Going back to all those months of speculation, I guess I just always figured that MVCI's future would be tied to whatever new system they implemented and that purchasers of the new system would be the darlings of the ownership pool.  Now it turns out that it's a Trust system and Weeks owners have been given the option to enroll for certain exchange opportunities.  But I have no doubt that we've been invited only because Marriott needs our intervals in order to open up the existing Weeks inventory to Trust owners - it doesn't surprise me that we're not on equal footing.  Marriott has a history of differentiating owner pools - direct purchasers got MRP exchange value, external resales did not - and now they've done it again.

Like Whirl says, all of this is unconfirmed and we really will have no idea how the buckets and pools and what-all else will impact Trust/Enrolled/Weeks owners until the system has been implemented and runs for a while.  If it appears you'll be able to get some good usage out of the new system, then enroll and test drive it.  If it works, great.  If it doesn't, then just don't pay the annual fee next time it's due and continue on with the Weeks system as it exists now (not as it existed prior to June 20th, remember.)  But it's too soon yet for any of us to be absolutely positively 100% surebet certain that whatever decision we make today will be the correct one two years from now.

And also like Whirl said, you're doing a great job gathering info from your guru and posting it to TUG so that we can all think.  Thank you.


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## Fredm (Jul 14, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning all...
> 
> 
> Pool #1 consists of points generated from all of the "deeds" placed in the trust on 6/20/10 + points generated from 'deeds" on  newly acquired properties or resorts.
> ...



Legacy owners are joining an EXCHANGE system.
Not buying the trust.

You don't expect to have the same advantage as a home resort owner when you make an I.I. exchange request. This is no different. Someone must deposit what you want to fill the exchange request.

The trust at large is the "home resort" of trust owners.
If they fill an exchange request with weeks inventory, an exchange member has access to the trust inventory. 

Want to be a trust owner? It costs $10/point.

Want the added flexibility and potential fee savings of the new exchange?  $695, without surrendering existing functionality.

Like what you have always enjoyed. $0.

Personally, I will take the $0 option. But to each their own.


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## siberiavol (Jul 14, 2010)

DanCali said:


> While I am sure there will be more than enough opportunities for "I told you so's" in the next few months, I am skeptical this is one of them.
> 
> What you describe is so bad that I am just speechless... In fact, I'd venture to say it's more likely that your guru is wrong rather than this being correct. Otherwise, the points system is truly pointless (pun intended).



I with you  on this Dan. If NONE of the new resorts are available to enrolled owners immediately then people looking on the calendar on July 26 will see virtually nothing as many enrolled owners have made no or limited deposits at this point in time. I doubt even Marriott would be unaware of the negative consequences to the new program moving forward. 

I think we will see trust properties from day one. Truthfully Marriott can't sell enough new points to dent their inventory for a long time. They won't let their properties sit empty.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 14, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Actually Sue, I think the problems here are that
> 
> 1.  Getting complete and accurate information with which to analyze the new system has been like peeling an onion, and
> 
> ...



This is the one area where I am in complete agreement with every other TUGger - Marriott should have expected an onslaught of questions pertaining to every aspect of enrollment in this new system from educated, savvy owners, and should have prepared a dedicated, select group of reps to deal with every question in a uniform manner.  ALL other Marriott reps, including the sales reps who apparently have only been trained on selling new Points and NOT on enrolling Weeks owners, who were contacted with questions should have been ordered to transfer enrollment-related calls to one of those dedicated reps in order to stop all the misinformation and prevent all this nonsense.

I understand why they released the legal documents first, why the website doesn't contain much more than "Hey!  An enhancement for you!" gibberish, why every owner wasn't contacted immediately - if all owners were notified on Day One with information overload, then the amount of immediate calls would have crippled Marriott's call-center system to the point where no one could get any answers.  But I completely agree that the way they're allowing information to be gleaned now is not helping them any because too many of their reps are providing misinformation, and that naturally causes suspicion and doubt of even the correct information.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 14, 2010)

siberiavol said:


> I with you  on this Dan. If NONE of the new resorts are available to enrolled owners immediately then people looking on the calendar on July 26 will see virtually nothing as many enrolled owners have made no or limited deposits at this point in time. I doubt even Marriott would be unaware of the negative consequences to the new program moving forward.
> 
> I think we will see trust properties from day one. Truthfully Marriott can't sell enough new points to dent their inventory for a long time. They won't let their properties sit empty.



I don't know.  I think it's quite possible that Puck's guru is correct here and the Trust owners will have access to Trust inventory that Legacy owners may not.  But in addition to the fact that Trust owners will open up that access to Legacy owners each and every time they reserve a Legacy interval, aren't we forgetting that Marriott holds developer inventory still which has not been conveyed to the Trust?  Where does that inventory fit, which pool is it in?


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## Beverley (Jul 14, 2010)

tiel said:


> HOWEVER, the new tidbit, which I either didn't comprehend before or which was never presented before here, is this:  if you are weeks owner and you enroll, then you convert one or more weeks to points, you may redeem those points ONLY for the following:  anything in the World Vacation Collection (like cruises and tours), and locations related to points deposited in the "points inventory bucket" by other weeks owners.
> 
> In other words, you will NOT have access to the "weeks" in the points inventory which came from the trust, like unsold weeks from Marco Island and Oceana Plams, and, of course, Kauai Lagoons and any other resorts yet to be built.  To get access to those resorts, you have to a buy a minimal number of points (currently 1000).  Then your points from any converted weeks can be redeemed for any resorts in the points inventory bucket.



Are you about this or could it be "salesman hype" as we were told differently from our destinations club rep.  We were told that the points bucket would have in it points from unsold inventory, inventory deposited by owners for points, inventory from weeks exchanged for Marriott Reward points, and even points from weeks currently in unsold resale inventory.  I can not see this system working if it depended only on the points from owners that converted their weeks.  At least, not at first.  After it gets off the ground it is likely their will be less unsold inventory (just as happened with weeks resorts as they sold out trades became very difficult without those developer weeks dropped into II), however, there will be many more points owners looking to use their points in different ways (such as cruises, air, etc).

Beverley


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## siberiavol (Jul 14, 2010)

We might be forgetting that Marriott Corp probably still owns 95% of trust at this point in time. They have the same right to turn in a week into new program as an enrolled member. Marriott as an owner has to do something with those weeks. They are not going to sit on them waiting for the 5% of the trust owners who are new point buyers to make up their mind on what they want.

They will wear their owner hat and deposit into points pool as requests come in. I had assumed they would be most of their inventory  but I can't see it being none of their inventory. The likely worst case is they release it more gradually to give new point buyers a better opportunity to see trust properties.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 14, 2010)

siberiavol said:


> We might be forgetting that Marriott Corp probably still owns 95% of trust at this point in time. They have the same right to turn in a week into new program as an enrolled member. Marriott as an owner has to do something with those weeks. They are not going to sit on them waiting for the 5% of the trust owners who are new point buyers to make up their mind on what they want.
> 
> They will wear their owner hat and deposit into points pool as requests come in. I had assumed they would be most of their inventory  but I can't see it being none of their inventory. The likely worst case is they release it more gradually to give new point buyers a better opportunity to see trust properties.



Ah, another good point.


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## tlwmkw (Jul 14, 2010)

If this is true then it is really a slap in the face for all of us who bought from Marriott in the past.  People have talked about the removal of the dreaded "R" from resale weeks but now I guess all of the legacy owners will have  an "L" or "E" for legacy or enrollee and it won't matter if you bought resale or direct- we'll all be the new second class.  And they expect folks to trust them with purchasing the new points?  My fear now is that in a few years they'll rework the system and the points will become the second class system and whatever "new flavor" is popular in TS'ing and will make them more $$$ will become the new first class.  If this is true Marriott is really hurting themselves with all the old owners who have been loyal to them.  Perhaps the Marriott people need to visit the Disney institute and learn about customer relations creating good-will and future sales/stable business.  This is all about making $$$ in the short term with no regard for the future.  Not a good plan in the hotel business.

Hopefully this isn't true and my rant was all for nothing.  We shall see.  When we went to the sales presentation they told us that "points are points" and that whatever is available in the trust is available to all.

tlwmkw


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## puckmanfl (Jul 14, 2010)

good morning....

my pleasure to get info and post it.  When I first heard about this it sounded so "cooky" that I could not post until I had double and triple confirmation.  Then I saw Tiel's post #16  ( a completely independent source). At this time I realized that two Tuggers could not independently come up with this, thus I pushed on to get confirmation...

I don't mind playing by any game as long as I know the rules.  Can any other TUGGER out there review the documents and lead me to the part where it even remotely hints or implies that Legacy "points" are  less valuable than trust "points".  This system was sold as the "best of all worlds".  For legacy owners it is actually the worst of both worlds.  II inventory by definition has to diminish from current levels (as unsold units now goes to trust in contrast to rental, getaways or II exchange and MVCD is now an exchange competitor) and the legacy points game plays second "fiddle" to trust owners.

Tuggers are very smart and play every angle. In all of the speculation thread (all 2700) posts even Perry never even considered this!!!! 

I would not have minded If I was given the option of returning my deeds to the trust and becoming a "trust" player with my allotted points (with or without the skim).

For some of you TUGGERS (dougp) that have been through a system where weeks were converted to points I ask this???  Were your converted points less valuable than newly purchased points???


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## puckmanfl (Jul 14, 2010)

good afternoon

tlwmkw...

As you know, I am one of the few TUGGERS that supported this at first.  I have booked all of my 2011 weeks the old fashioned way (with the exception of 1)  I was discussing how on 7/26 I was going to convert this week to points (3775) and add my 800 for a total of 4550 and book some sun-thurs stays at trust resorts within driving distance.  I was told not to count on availability of "trust" inventory. I stated that you can't possibly be sold out yet!!!  This is when the legacy points/trust points dichotomy was brought to my attention!!!

they mentioned it to me without "prodding", as it dot appear I knew the rules...

now I do...

I am sure trust inventory will be made available to us legacy drones, but is the principle of playing second fiddle that is irritating...


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## Cindala (Jul 14, 2010)

If it is true that Legacy "points" are less valuable than trust "points", it doesn't surprise me and fits in with a "for profit" business model. 

Marriott doesn't want the nickel and dime $595 fee from converting Legacy owners if they are not buying points. What money is there to be made in that, especially if they don't convert to points, but just keep using their weeks?

They want the big bucks that come from selling points!!! That's where they make their money. 

So, $595 vs. $9200. What would you want if you wanted to pull a profit?


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## puckmanfl (Jul 14, 2010)

Good afternoon

You would have to be nuts to buy points at these prices.  Most of the units can be rented on red week.com for just a smudge above the mf's for the points required by a trust owner.

The ski week that requires 5500 pts. (2200 mf) is up for rent for $3000. This is without the 50k outlay....

I wish them well


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## GregT (Jul 14, 2010)

All,

I think Siberiavol was on point in saying that Marriott owns 100% of the Trust right now, and with 42M points to sell, it will be awhile before that number meaningfully drops.

Accordingly, as the owner of those points/weeks, they can and will exchange those in the Enrollee Points pool even if it turns out to be true that the points pools are separated -- this may be a technicality to the legal structure of the inventory.  However, I can hear the sales pitch -- "as a points purchaser, you have first access to our new/best properties, but can still get to the legacy system........"

One of our good TUGgers is running the test case, and trying to exchange two Waiohai weeks for a 3BR at Kauai Lagoons -- if that goes through without a hitch (and I mean, *right away*, there's a ton of KL inventory), then we know the points are functionally co-mingled.  

I want to point out (for anyone from Marriott reading this thread) -- you are absolutely killing your brand.   The skim was the first outrage and now the suggestion that enrolled points will be a second tier user is almost as damaging (but The Skim remains in first place, in my view).   

Good luck to all,

Greg


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## GregT (Jul 14, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> Good afternoon
> 
> You would have to be nuts to buy points at these prices.  Most of the units can be rented on red week.com for just a smudge above the mf's for the points required by a trust owner.
> 
> ...



Puck, this is a great point and applies to other properties as well.  A 1BR at Ko Olina requires 3,725 points -- or $1,490 in MFs.  You can rent a 1BR at Ko Olina for $1,500.

The MFs alone closely correlate to the rental cost at the properties I monitor.   It is incredibly difficult to find an argument for someone to write the check for $9.20/point and then pay the full weekly rental cost for the unit.

Nice find on the dual inventory by the way, although I believe they will be functionally co-mingled.  Agree on your point about the principle of accepting being a second tier user -- sad how we have to rationalize getting over these things (The Skim/Second Tier) to actually use the points system.  

Best,

Greg


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## puckmanfl (Jul 14, 2010)

Good afternoon

Greg

I am the nutty Tugger doing the test case on7/26.  This is how this started.  My guru said you won't see Kauai Lagoons on points as A legacy points player on 7/26.....

I asked Why???? The rest is history....

I plan on listening to my good friend Sue and continuing my test drive on 7/26 ... It is all good as I already have my ski exchange and Hawaii booked the old way for2011.  I will be the official Tug test driver on 7/26 and report Immediately


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## aka Julie (Jul 14, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> I plan on listening to my good friend Sue and continuing my test drive on 7/26 ... It is all good as I already have my ski exchange and Hawaii booked the old way for2011.  I will be the official Tug test driver on 7/26 and report Immediately



Gentlemen/women, start your engines!


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## Luckybee (Jul 14, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> Good afternoon
> 
> Greg
> 
> ...



If Marriott is watching Tug, as I suspect they are then you probably will be rewarded for all your work . They'd be very foolish to not get you what you want if available Puckman


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## GregT (Jul 14, 2010)

Luckybee said:


> If Marriott is watching Tug, as I suspect they are then you probably will be rewarded for all your work . They'd be very foolish to not get you what you want if available Puckman



I agree -- I can see the Marriott rep now calling the Exchange Department and saying "get that guy from Florida his trade before Tibbitts writes another rant and before LauraC goes postal".

Good luck and let us know -- we'll be curious!!


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## DanCali (Jul 14, 2010)

GregT said:


> Puck, this is a great point and applies to other properties as well.  A 1BR at Ko Olina requires 3,725 points -- or $1,490 in MFs.  You can rent a 1BR at Ko Olina for $1,500.



Same with NCV summer... 4700 points = about $1900 in MFs (not to mention the $45K capital outlay). 

I rented out my 2010 August week for slightly less than that...


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## windje2000 (Jul 14, 2010)

So there will be how many classes of owners?

1.  Deeded resale

2.  Deeded developer

3.  Deeded enrolled resale (they have to keep the asterisk in case you quit)

4.  Deeded enrolled developer

5.  Deeded enrolled resale w/point purchase (do you lose the asterisk?)

6.  Deeded enrolled developer w/point purchase

7.  Point purchaser 


And they are going to prioritize/match how many classes of inventory?

Class A Dpoints 
Class B Dpoints

Class A Weeks
Class B Weeks
Class A weeks that became available to Class B

Class A Weekend days
Class B Weekend days
Class A weekend days that became available to Class B

Class A Week days
Class B Week days
Class A week days that became available to Class B

MRP

edited to add:  And somehow their interface with II comes into play as well.

Have I missed any?

Oh, what a tangled web we weave . . . 

Do I sense this being outsourced to India in the near future?


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## DanCali (Jul 14, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> So there will be how many classes of owners?
> 
> 1.  Deeded resale
> 
> ...




Now I understand post 52!


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## pwrshift (Jul 14, 2010)

When you think about it, why did Marriott give the Legacy member the promise that everything would be the same ... *what's in it for Marriott if you don't convert to points?*

I think I'm going to stay outside, at least until all the dust settles and those that do join can tell the rest of us the pros and cons...*IF* they can be objective.

Marriott seems like a sinking ship right now and the Captain isn't saying anything.

Brian



windje2000 said:


> Pointless? That's the problem!!!
> 
> Buy some points! Get full access!
> 
> That's the point D) of the program.


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## windje2000 (Jul 14, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Now I understand post 52!



Yup!  This is giving me a headache.


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## puckmanfl (Jul 14, 2010)

Good afternoon

I loyally purchased 85k worth of product from the developer.  I banked all my incentive points and got tons of great info from my guru!!!! I pAy my mf's on time.

All I want for Xmas is a fair set of understandable rules to play by!!!!!

Will let you know how it goes on 7/26

Off to lakeshore Friday in one of those 3 bedroom town homes off an old fashioned upgrade from a 2 bedroom grand vista trade...


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## SueDonJ (Jul 14, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> Good afternoon
> 
> Greg
> 
> ...



Oh no!  You can't blame anything that happens on me!  :hysterical: 

I'll be doing a test drive that day, too, comparing what can be done with Points and II.  But first I need to figure out exactly where and when we want to go next year ...

What I really like about Points, although I don't know how much it will be in effect at the outset because of all these inventory pool questions, is the ability to make an instant exchange and know exactly what you're getting.  Eventually when the pools have all intermingled enough and the kinks are worked out, we'll be able to know at the end of a phone call where we're going, when, and what kind of unit/view we'll be enjoying.  That will pacify my "hate to wait" gene, and also prevent those surprises at check-in when you find that an owner exchanging through II back into a home resort has bumped you from your oceanfront unit to a gardenview.  (I was the owner exchanging back in twice on Getaways who got bumped up from GV to that OF unit, and once was bumped down as a non-owner on an exchange, so I know it happens.)


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## siberiavol (Jul 14, 2010)

We might be forgetting that Marriott Corp probably still owns 95% of trust at this point in time. They have the same right to turn in a week into new program as an enrolled member. Marriott as an owner has to do something with those weeks. They are not going to sit on them waiting for the 5% of the trust owners who are new point buyers to make up their mind on what they want.

They will wear their owner hat and deposit into points pool as requests come in. I had assumed they would be most of their inventory  but I can't see it being none of their inventory. The likely worst case is they release it more gradually to give new point buyers a better opportunity to see trust properties.


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## travelplanner70 (Jul 14, 2010)

When I was at BPT two weeks ago, the sales rep made it seem like points are points, and that I would have access to Marriott's inventory in the trust.  (Of course, they gave me such few points that I do not think I could ever go there - unless I am willing to use my 2 units for 1 week at those high-end properties.  Then one might start to think that it would be cheaper to rent.  I am giving up 4 weeks vacation - because I have lock-offs - in the old system to stay one week on Marco Island!)

I agree that knowing whether legacy owners have access to trust inventory is crucial in decision-making about joining Destination Points Program.

Maybe someone can confirm.

Thanks.


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## windje2000 (Jul 14, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> good afternoon
> 
> tlwmkw...
> 
> ...



This behavior tells you the sales people know exactly what the plan is all about and exactly what they're doing . . . which is not disclosing material information.

At some point, this goes beyond being a contract of adhesion and becomes fraud in the inducement.

IANAL, but I can sure see why they want you to waive your right to a jury trial when you sign up for this.


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## jimf41 (Jul 14, 2010)

I just made a couple of phone calls to MVCI reference this heretofore unannounced two party system. Both times I was transferred to points specialist. The first call went well. The rep put me on hold for about 30 seconds or so while she checked with her supervisor. When she came back on she allayed my concerns with the statement"..Points are points, no matter where they came from". As soon as she said this a power outage occurred at my end and we were disconnected.

The second phone call didn't go as well. Again I was transferred to a points specialist and she put me on hold for about 3-4 minutes while she talked to her supervisor. She did indeed confirm everything that Puckman had put out in his original post on this topic. I was stunned.  Legacy week owners can only use their points at resorts where other legacy week owners have handed over their weeks for points. We will have no access to the points in the beneficial trust. Not now, not ever.

As I had just enrolled last night I asked her to un-enroll me. She transferred me again to someone who tried to satisfy me by saying that I could still get a week in the beneficial trust if a beneficial owner deposited with II. I told her that wasn't worth $700 to join and $200 a year as I can do that already with II. I just received my cancellation notice back via E-mail.


As requested, the following inventories have been un-enrolled from the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations program. 
 then it lists my resorts followed by;

If you have already elected your ownership week for Vacation Club Points, your Vacation Club Points will still be available for your use. The option to continue to elect your ownership week to Vacation Club Points will no longer be available.

If you purchased your ownership week outside of Marriott Vacation Club, your benefit of trading your Marriott Vacation Week for Marriott Rewards Points will also end with your un-enrollment in the program.

All I can say is I'm stunned by this development. I've been a fairly strong supporter of Marriott on this board but now I'm completely disillusioned.


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## rickxylon (Jul 14, 2010)

*A rep just told me ALL Points are available*

Rick : If I enroll in the new program, convert my weeks for points and then look for exchanges, do I have access to ALL points inventories?
Sadie B.: You have access to all the Marriott Vacation Club Timeshare inventory traded by owners.
Rick : Does that mean I do NOT have access to the inventory in the trust?
Sadie B.: The trust program is part of the program and yes you will have access to that inventory.
Rick : So I have access to those weeks traded by legacy weeks owners who also enrolled and exchanged their weeks for points as well as any weeks available in the trust. Is that correct?
Sadie B.: That is correct.
Rick : Thanks
Sadie B.: You're welcome


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## SueDonJ (Jul 14, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> This behavior tells you the sales people know exactly what the plan is all about and exactly what they're doing . . . which is not disclosing material information.
> 
> At some point, this goes beyond being a contract of adhesion and becomes fraud in the inducement.
> 
> IANAL, but I can sure see why they want you to waive your right to a jury trial when you sign up for this.



FWIW, there's language in the Weeks docs also pertaining to waiving rights to a jury trial.


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## puckmanfl (Jul 14, 2010)

good afternoon

Jim... 

it isn't as bleak as it looks. If I convert my legacy GV week to points AND points trust owner grabs it,  The equivalent point value from the trust is made available to a legacy points player!!!

I asked if the point value made available is before or after the "skim",  In other words if I convert my GV week for 3775 pts.  Is 4100 or 3775 pys made available to a legacy owner waiting for his turn at lunch!!!

It still is pretty bad form.. Can anyone find anything in the documents that remotely hints at such a thing....

I would not mind as much, if trust owners were not able to grab point units created from the legacy weeks. These weeks are NOT or ever will be in the trust (the deeds belong to us).  

still, am stunned!!!


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## m61376 (Jul 14, 2010)

rickxylon- I am assuming that was an on-line chat transcript. If so, it isn't worth the space it is posted on. Online reps have notoriously been giving out the wrong info. Two weeks ago I asked 4 people the same question and literally got 4 variations on the answer. The guys at Customer Advocacy, which seems to be where this info. is coming from, are the ones in the know or at least responsible enough to verify information.


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## tiel (Jul 14, 2010)

*Could this be the key?*



dbbk94404 said:


> I could be wrong and please correct me if I am, but I think, *the key words are "MVCEC affilated resorts" for exchange members (enrolled only*). And for trust members (bought points), there is no mention of "affilated resorts" when it comes to what you can exchange into (unless I missed it somewhere). Since MVCEC stands for Marriott Vacation Club Exchange Company and is not the the trust itself, it is possible to have a property in the trust and not be affilated. So, the $9,200 + MF question is "are all resorts going to be affilated?" Or am I thinking WAY too much into this and have too much time on my hands?



We are not at home, and do not have easy access to everything now, but we are wondering if dbbk hasn't hit this squarely on the head!  Could this be where the limitations come in for legacy owners?  

We don't know any body in Marriott, so we don't have any sources to contact about this mess...but we are going to keep looking into it.  If makes a big difference to us whether we have full or partial access to all the properties of MVCD...


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## windje2000 (Jul 14, 2010)

tiel said:


> We are not at home, and do not have easy access to everything now, but we are wondering if dbbk hasn't hit this squarely on the head!  Could this be where the limitations come in for legacy owners?
> 
> We don't know any body in Marriott, so we don't have any sources to contact about this mess...but we are going to keep looking into it.  If makes a big difference to us whether we have full or partial access to all the properties of MVCD...



Tiel - Big thanks for your original post #16- you are the Magellan of this topic


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## JoeZuke (Jul 18, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Tiel - Big thanks for your original post #16- you are the Magellan of this topic



I just returned from our OceanWatch vacation and was looking for a post that dealt with this very topic.  Thanks to Tiel for starting it and Puckman for the additional research and everyone else’s comments.  Here is what I heard.

Our sales rep pitched the same concept regarding the purchasing of the additional 1,000 to become a “Point Owner” status.  With this status we would have access to all available Enrolled Owner and Trust Owner inventory.

To validate what the sales rep told us I had discussions with sales managers and they confirmed.  There will be multiple pools of inventory.  Trust Owners will have priority access to both pools of inventory (1. weeks deposited by Legacy Enrolled Owners,  2. Trust Owners, MRP and future properties put into the Trust Inventory).  When inventory is pulled from the Legacy Enrolled Owners pool by a Point Owner, the system will move inventory from the Trust  to the Enrolled to satisfy Legacy Enrolled Owners requests.

We purchased the 1,000 points with the option to cancel within 10 days after doing the additional research.  The sales managers believe there will be enough inventory moving between the two pools to satisfy the Legacy Enrolled Owners requests.  They recommend I look at the additional 1,000 points as a compliment to my current week’s inventory rather than as a way to get priority status.

I am still on the fence at this time about having that priority Point Owner status.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 18, 2010)

JoeZuke said:


> To validate what the sales rep told us I had discussions with sales managers and they confirmed.  There will be multiple pools of inventory.  Trust Owners will have priority access to both pools of inventory (1. weeks deposited by Legacy Enrolled Owners,  2. Trust Owners, MRP and future properties put into the Trust Inventory).  When inventory is pulled from the Legacy Enrolled Owners pool by a Point Owner, the system will move inventory from the Trust  to the Enrolled to satisfy Legacy Enrolled Owners requests. . . .



I do not thing this is going to turn out to be true.  The Disclosure Guide (paragraph VIII) does not make any distinction between which type of members can pull from affiliate inventories.  And that is a legal document that they have to abide by.  What I think will probably turn out to be true is that Trust Members will have priority over inventory in the Trust at the percentage of the number of points that have been sold.  Since the Trust is an affiliate and is on the same level with all other resorts participating in the program, any inventory that "is owned" by the Trust Owners will be unavailable to exchangers in the same manner as at the resorts.  If they have sold 100,000 points on July 26, they will probably have to keep back 100,000 points worth of inventory in the Trust to account for the Trust Members who "own" that much inventory.


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## kedler (Jul 18, 2010)

JoeZuke said:


> I just returned from our OceanWatch vacation and was looking for a post that dealt with this very topic.  Thanks to Tiel for starting it and Puckman for the additional research and everyone else’s comments.  Here is what I heard.
> 
> Our sales rep pitched the same concept regarding the purchasing of the additional 1,000 to become a “Point Owner” status.  With this status we would have access to all available Enrolled Owner and Trust Owner inventory.
> 
> ...


We also did the presentation at OceanWatch and purchased points. We decided that it made no sense just to purchase 1000 points because that put us close to but not quite at the 6500 mark so we thought if we were doing it we might as well add the extra to hit the 6500 mark which in our case is also what we need to ensure that we can vacation the way we want using points, weeks or a combination of both. We will like and will use some of the Explorer Collection in the near future. We also fell in love with OceanWatch and want to be able to go back in the summer as we are stuck with school schedules for the immediate future.

The Rep started out showing us a much bigger package of points but as soon as I said I had a child going to college in 2 years she said then forget it. We started going over the numbers to see what made sense for us going forward and what we could afford and finally decided to buy. 

We've looked at the weeks/points numbers since we came home as we have until tomorrow to back out and our conclusion is we think it will give us what we need for the next few years. I've read the majority of the helpful/informational posts on TUG and all the documents so we understand the pros and cons. We like the idea of having the 13 month window but we didn't buy to get that window as we know that Marriot can change that status level in the future. For now we see it as an added perk. 

Additionally we have two resale weeks - both bronze - that I bought to trade in Flexchange last fall and I paid under $500 for each. The way I look at it, even with what I call the resale enrollment fee ($1300), and the low points given I'm still way ahead. We are getting 1275 points between the two which would have cost us $11,730., but, including the $1300, we paid a total of $2005 for those points. Savings of $9,725. plus no fees to exchange M to M and the option for MR points on one of the weeks. The MF's much higher though because its two weeks but we still have the option to trade in flexchange as we have done in the past. 

Basically I like having all these options and the ability (in theory) to book vacations for both longer and shorter periods of time than 7 days. July 26 is around the corner so I guess we'll soon see how it actually works.

I hope this helps your thought process.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 18, 2010)

kedler said:


> We also did the presentation at OceanWatch and purchased points. We decided that it made no sense just to purchase 1000 points because that put us close to but not quite at the 6500 mark so we thought if we were doing it we might as well add the extra to hit the 6500 mark which in our case is also what we need to ensure that we can vacation the way we want using points, weeks or a combination of both. We will like and will use some of the Explorer Collection in the near future. We also fell in love with OceanWatch and want to be able to go back in the summer as we are stuck with school schedules for the immediate future. . . .



It is interesting that I did basically the same thing as I think you are saying.  I only had the one week, but it gave me 5150 points.  That put me within striking distance of 6500.  So, even though I have the same college expense issues that you have (in fact, I have two kids), I decided that being Premier would make my existing week much more valuable than just the 5150 points that they were going to give me, which given the skim, was substantially reduced in value.  If indeed Trust Members really did have the priority to everything, I would be in great shape, since I will be a Trust Member.  But, I don't think it is so, based upon the Disclosure Guide.  It looks to me that Trust Members and Exchange Members are on an equal footing.


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## pipet (Jul 18, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> The Disclosure Guide (paragraph VIII) does not make any distinction between which type of members can pull from affiliate inventories.  And that is a legal document that they have to abide by.



They don't need to make a distinction.  All they have to do is say they will confirm your request if it is available.  *There is no section in the documents exactly and specifically outlining how they decide inventory becomes available*, and that is part of the problem evidenced by this thread!  *Legally they actually defined very little for them to abide by. *

IMO, a lot would have trusted Marriott to do the right thing by whatever procedures it deems necessary.  By enrolling in the program, you are indeed giving Marriott a lot of trust because I can't count how many times it says they can change anything without notification or approval.  The problem is, with skim, they have created a lot of trust issues!

One hopes at the end of all this they do have a relatively seamless point exchange operation because they need it to work!  I'd like to think that Marriott isn't stupid enough to sink their business, but this roll out ranks high up there on the incompetence list.


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## DanCali (Jul 18, 2010)

JoeZuke said:


> Our sales rep pitched the same concept regarding the purchasing of the additional 1,000 to become a “Point Owner” status.  With this status we would have access to all available Enrolled Owner and Trust Owner inventory.
> 
> To validate what the sales rep told us I had discussions with sales managers and they confirmed.  There will be multiple pools of inventory.  Trust Owners will have priority access to both pools of inventory (1. weeks deposited by Legacy Enrolled Owners,  2. Trust Owners, MRP and future properties put into the Trust Inventory).  When inventory is pulled from the Legacy Enrolled Owners pool by a Point Owner, the system will move inventory from the Trust  to the Enrolled to satisfy Legacy Enrolled Owners requests.
> 
> We purchased the 1,000 points with the option to cancel within 10 days after doing the additional research.



Just so you know, in the latest thread on this topic the current assessment is that you will not be able to combine trust points and legacy points to search trust invntory. If this legal structure of separation of trust and legacy points turns out to be true (all signs point to "yes"), this actually makes sense... the fact that you buy 1000 trust points can't magically turn your exchanged legacy week points into trust points. You will get “Point Owner” status but only for 1000 points, not the 10K+ points you were led to believe.

My guess is that you were told what you were told because it helped close the sale. I would rescind now (both the 1000 point purchase and enrollment to points) and wait to find out the real answer after people report experiences. You will always be able to buy 1000 points anytime in the future but you can only get a refund for a week or so (and I don't think you need to worry about point prices going up next week). 

It it turns out they lied to you to close the sale, you should reconsider how much you want to do business with a company that operates in this manner.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 18, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Just so you know, in the latest thread on this topic the current assessment is that you will not be able to combine trust points and legacy points to search trust invntory. If this legal structure of separation of trust and legacy points turns out to be true (all signs point to "yes"), this actually makes sense... the fact that you buy 1000 trust points can't magically turn your exchanged legacy week points into trust points. You will get “Point Owner” status but only for 1000 points, not the 10K+ points you were led to believe. . . .



Dan, what do you do with this statement in Section III, B, 1, of the document

EXCHANGE PROCEDURES FOR MARRIOTT VACATION CLUB DESTINATIONS EXCHANGE PROGRAM?

"Currently, the conversion of Affiliate Program points into Exchange Points is one-to-one; . . ."

That sure sound like Trust Members can convert their points to Destination Points to me.  Destination Points are Destination Points regardless of how you get them.


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## DanCali (Jul 18, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Dan, what do you do with this statement in Section III, B, 1, of the document
> 
> EXCHANGE PROCEDURES FOR MARRIOTT VACATION CLUB DESTINATIONS EXCHANGE PROGRAM?
> 
> ...



Maybe I wasn't clear so I'll try to explain better wat I meant.

JoeZuke said he heard this:



JoeZuke said:


> To validate what the sales rep told us I had discussions with sales managers and they confirmed.  There will be multiple pools of inventory.  Trust Owners will have priority access to both pools of inventory (1. weeks deposited by Legacy Enrolled Owners,  2. Trust Owners, MRP and future properties put into the Trust Inventory).  When inventory is pulled from the Legacy Enrolled Owners pool by a Point Owner, the system will move inventory from the Trust  to the Enrolled to satisfy Legacy Enrolled Owners requests.




It goes back to the topic that Trust Points > Legacy Points. It basically means that Trust owners can search trust inventory AND Marriott Exchange Co inventory and Converted weeks  can only search Marriott Exchange Co inventory. I know you disagree that this is actually the legal structure of things, but for purposes of the discussion let's assume it holds (and it's also what the person I was replying to heard).

My point was that if I own an NCV week and convert to 3475 points next year and also bought 1000 points, I can only search trust inventory with 1000 points and NOT 4475 points. Buying 1000 points doesn't turn my 3475 points into Trust points... I believe Dave M is working on getting an answer from his contacts on this.

If he bought 1000 points thinking all his Exchange Company points get access to all trust inventory I think it's prudent to hold off on the purchase for now.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 18, 2010)

DanCali said:


> My point was that if I own an NCV week and convert to 3475 points next year and also bought 1000 points, I can only search trust inventory with 1000 points and NOT 4475 points. Buying 1000 points doesn't turn my 3475 points into Trust points... I believe Dave M is working on getting an answer from his contacts on this.
> 
> If he bought 1000 points thinking all his Exchange Company points get access to all trust inventory I think it's prudent to hold off on the purchase for now.



You are correct about not agreeing on the availability of all inventory.   I think they have to abide by what they wrote.  And they wrote that all members can reserve accomodations at affiliates that are a part of the program.  Since the Trust is an affiliate that is part of the program (as are all of the resorts), any inventory at any of the resorts as well as that in the Trust that is not "owned" (either via points or via deed) will be available to any member who wants to exchange his points for an accomodation (with the understanding that Marriott can load balance demand as they see fit).

On the issue of whether the 1000 extra points can be combined with enrolled points, it is clear from the exchange document that Trust points can be converted to exchange points.  That makes both sets of points the same.  Then the combined points can be used to search available inventory.


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## DanCali (Jul 18, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> You are correct about not agreeing on the availability of all inventory.   I think they have to abide by what they wrote.  And they wrote that all members can reserve accomodations at affiliates that are a part of the program.  Since the Trust is an affiliate that is part of the program (as are all of the resorts), any inventory at any of the resorts as well as that in the Trust that is not "owned" (either via points or via deed) will be available to any member who wants to exchange his points for an accomodation (with the understanding that Marriott can load balance demand as they see fit).
> 
> On the issue of whether the 1000 extra points can be combined with enrolled points, it is clear from the exchange document that Trust points can be converted to exchange points.  That makes both sets of points the same.  Then the combined points can be used to search available inventory.



Well - since you also believe that converted week points can search trust inventory in general, I am not surprised you reached this conclusion. 

However, since many (if not most) of us reading this board these days are inclined to believe otherwise, I think it was prudent to let him know that the 1000 points might not be combinable with "legacy" points. Especially since his own sales rep told him specifically that converted week points CANNOT search trust inventory (unless of course he spends $9K...)

As for the documents, are you a lawyer? Because there are several here on TUG who have remained silent on the interpretation of what you point to. To me, the working is too vague to mean anything...


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## MikeZ (Jul 18, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Dan, what do you do with this statement in Section III, B, 1, of the document
> 
> EXCHANGE PROCEDURES FOR MARRIOTT VACATION CLUB DESTINATIONS EXCHANGE PROGRAM?
> 
> ...



There is substantial debate as to whether or not you are interpreting this as it will be executed.  Most who have done research have come to the conclusion that DP are NOT DP, regardless of how you get them.  

To *JoeZuke* I would advise taking a step back and watching how this plays out over the next couple months.  There is no cost to do so!  If you rescind now, you can make that same deal after watching the early adopters work the system.  The issue of trust points vs. Legacy points may be a small deal, over the long run, or it may be a very big deal.  If you wait a little longer, I am confident you will get much more of a clear picture.


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## m61376 (Jul 18, 2010)

hotcoffee- Just because they wrote that all members can reserve accommodations at affiliates that are a part of the program doesn't mean that the opportunity to make the reservation will be available. It is no different that being told a Bronze week can trade for Christmas or New Years weeks in Aruba, Maui, a ski week, etc.- it can happen, it has happened, but we all know that outside of Flexchange the stars have to be aligned for it to realistically happen. 

As others have pointed out, we still do not know the answers of whether legacy points are < or = trust points and, assuming the former, if adding 1000+ trust points will allow you access to trust inventory with anything other than the 1000 points you just bought.

That said, since there is no rush to lay out ~10K and commit to an additional $400 a year in MF's, I think JoeZuke would be better off rescinding, see what pans out at least over the next few days (as Dave M hopefully will have an official response to this) and perhaps the next several weeks to see what other questions crop up. Joe, if you rescind and hold off you have nothing to lose, but if you go forward and things don't turn out like you were told you may be one annoyed owner.


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## JoeZuke (Jul 18, 2010)

m61376 said:


> hotcoffee- Just because they wrote that all members can reserve accommodations at affiliates that are a part of the program doesn't mean that the opportunity to make the reservation will be available. It is no different that being told a Bronze week can trade for Christmas or New Years weeks in Aruba, Maui, a ski week, etc.- it can happen, it has happened, but we all know that outside of Flexchange the stars have to be aligned for it to realistically happen.
> 
> As others have pointed out, we still do not know the answers of whether legacy points are < or = trust points and, assuming the former, if adding 1000+ trust points will allow you access to trust inventory with anything other than the 1000 points you just bought.
> 
> That said, since there is no rush to lay out ~10K and commit to an additional $400 a year in MF's, I think JoeZuke would be better off rescinding, see what pans out at least over the next few days (as Dave M hopefully will have an official response to this) and perhaps the next several weeks to see what other questions crop up. Joe, if you rescind and hold off you have nothing to lose, but if you go forward and things don't turn out like you were told you may be one annoyed owner.




Thanks everyone for your recommendations.  I'll look forward to Dave M's offical response.  Great that we have each other to bounce these issues off of.


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