# Open Season Rates Changes for 2020



## alwysonvac (Dec 3, 2019)

ski_sierra said:


> 2020 Club Reference Guide Link:
> https://d1m2ucn09z2f8d.cloudfront.n...0e66335f38/2020-HGV-Points-Open-Season-R6.pdf


Thanks for posting 

*2020 Open Season rates changes *

Rates have increased or decreased based on location.
Some rates are now based on unit size and season only (excluding unit type)
Some have lower rate difference between weekday (Sun - Thurs) vs weekend (Fri-Sun) stays. 

*For example a week stay during Platinum Season in the Orlando’s Tuscany Village*
Studios was $847 (decreased to $679)
One bedroom was $1019 (decreased to $841)
Two bedroom was $1415 (decreased to $1333)
Three bedroom was $1937 (decreased to $1807)

*For example a week stay during Platinum Season in the Oahu’s Lagoon Tower*
Studios was $1004 (increased to $1102)
One bedroom was $1222 to $1415 (increased to $1509 across all unit types)
Two bedroom was $1415 to $1884 (*increased to $2237 *across all unit types)
Three bedroom was $2442 (*increased to $4809*)


*2019 Open Season for the Tuscany Village*




*
2020 Open Season for the Tuscany Village*





*2019 Open Season for the Lagoon Tower*



​*2020 Open Season for the Lagoon Tower*


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 3, 2019)

alwysonvac said:


> Thanks for posting
> 
> *2020 Open Season rates changes *
> 
> ...



Yes, I think they finally did it.  Made Open Season in Honolulu not cost effective!!  I believe that is because the cost of Hotel 
Rooms has gone up there so they raise the Open Season rates knowing that if HGVC members don't book them they can rent them on HHonors for even more!  

This makes our recent purchase of whole property in Honolulu more beneficial since at times we did use Open Season to extend our stays before or after a long timeshare stay.  Now we will not need to deal with the booking and high cost circus.  In addition, as long people we know want to visit Honolulu give us enough notice we will be able to put them up in a timeshare using our large point balance right across the street from our condo using our large point balance before we sell off some of our timeshares.


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## alwysonvac (Dec 3, 2019)

*Other locations took a big hit as well. 
Here’s Valdoro Mountain Lodge.*

2019 Platinum Season weekly rates ranged from $946 to $1740.
*2020 Platinum Season weekly rates now ranges from $1308 to $3148*


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## ski_sierra (Dec 3, 2019)

Wow. I had not paid any attention to the open season rates as we rarely make last-minute plans. But this looks like a terrible devaluation. It's always good to have the option to add units to your plans if friends/family decide to join last minute.

Who controls these costs and where does this revenue end up?


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## GT75 (Dec 3, 2019)

alwysonvac said:


> Valdoro Mountain Lodge.



Wow, I actually used OS at Valdoro this year.    I know that @PigsDad has also used that in the past.    And the past looks like that is what it is going to be too.


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## SmithOp (Dec 3, 2019)

Not surprising for a public traded company, its all about shareholder value now, not owner satisfaction.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Talent312 (Dec 3, 2019)

ski_sierra said:


> ...[W]here does this revenue end up?



The pockets of the HGVC executives, as Christmas bonuses.
.


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## jestme (Dec 3, 2019)

alwysonvac said:


> Thanks for posting
> 
> *2020 Open Season rates changes *
> 
> ...


I'm trying to think of any other business, in any other industry, anywhere on the planet, who raises prices by 25-50% in a year. I cannot think of any. This will be my last year using Open Season. It's the benefit I originally bought HGVC for, and now, it is 100% useless. My ownership has been severely downgraded to the point where I'm considering dropping HGVC altogther. I was willing to pay the high MF's and high buy in price when I got Open Season rooms at a large discount, but even a 25% hike in rates is unacceptable. 
If any of the money came back to the resort providing the service to offset the increased overhead costs of Open Season, that might help. But they do not. It might make the MF's at the more popular resorts lower if they did. Instead, they are 100% kept at HGVC. So as an owner, I pay for the extra cleaning, electricity, wear and tear, etc. for people who give nothing to my resort at all. Then HGVC want to charge me for these ridiculous Open Season increases! 
What is this based on? Hotel pricing? There is no comparison with a hotel, that has 3PM check in instead of 4, 11AM checkout instead of 10. Daily room cleaning, Hhonors point eligibility, booking capability a year in advance, no restrictions based on "point availability", no maintenance fees, no limit to who can stay in a room without paying for a "guest certificate", etc. 
End of rant.....


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 3, 2019)

Unfortunately it appears that this benefit has devalued and is going the way of HHonors conversions, and cruises...dodo bird...

We only used open season rates once so not much loss. Although my preference is to see the revenue accrue to the property and support the cost of additional rentals, perhaps beefing up HGVC's financial results in this way is not so bad if it staves off predators such as Diamond/Apollo.


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## brp (Dec 3, 2019)

SmithOp said:


> Not surprising for a public traded company, its all about shareholder value now, not owner satisfaction.



As it should be, from a legal and ethical standpoint. Or, another way:

We can keep our prices well below market rates in order to make our owners (people who are already part of our system) happy, or we can raise rates closer to market and maximize shareholder value, which is something we have a fiduciary responsibility to do.

Not sure why they should really do anything differently. They're not in the business of "making owners happy at the expense of the bottom line." They're a business that should look our for the business and the shareholders. Anyone who bought thinking that the relationship was somehow different than that did so under a misconception.

I see the same sorts of things on a DVC board I read as well as on airline FF boards in the discussion about the companies' "loyalty" to the members.

Cheers.


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## SteelerGal (Dec 3, 2019)

Wow.  This puts our qtrly trips to San Diego out of our budget.


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## jestme (Dec 3, 2019)

brp said:


> As it should be, from a legal and ethical standpoint. Or, another way:
> 
> We can keep our prices well below market rates in order to make our owners (people who are already part of our system) happy, or we can raise rates closer to market and maximize shareholder value, which is something we have a fiduciary responsibility to do.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind, in most resorts, (especially Hawaii) HGVC does not own any of these units they are renting out. They are owned units that are currently not being used by their owners. I don't buy their "traded in points" nonsense. If that were the case, then the Club Season points would all be in full week blocks when they come available. We, as the owners, are allowing them to rent out our unused units, to other members of the club and they are taking advantage of other members because of our generosity.
BTW, I understand the concept of shareholder value, and their commitment to it. However, shareholder value should be seen as a long term thing, not a short term one. When Open Season revenue becomes obsolete due to overpricing, revenue will go down, and the management can explain it then. When it affects sales, they can explain that as well. "The wrong inventory mix" is an excuse they are currently using, as they wouldn't admit it could be a sign of harder sales opportunities due to the lessening of benefits.


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## brp (Dec 3, 2019)

jestme said:


> BTW, I understand the concept of shareholder value, and their commitment to it. However, shareholder value should be seen as a long term thing, not a short term one. When Open Season revenue becomes obsolete due to overpricing, revenue will go down, and the management can explain it then. When it affects sales, they can explain that as well. "The wrong inventory mix" is an excuse they are currently using, as they wouldn't admit it could be a sign of harder sales opportunities due to the lessening of benefits.



The question is: even though it is getting higher for us than it used to be, how does it compare to rates at equivalent hotels in the area? Because that's the point at which it becomes an obsolete concept due to overpricing. And I'm not as familiar with room rates in these areas, so I can't say where they are on that spectrum (and I also wouldn't put it past them to overprice despite what I said ). But just raising prices is not enough to obsolete the model. It needs context.

CHeers.


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## jestme (Dec 3, 2019)

Sorry, but as I said in my first post, you cannot compare a hotel room with all the advantages it has over a timeshare. With all the timeshare booking limitations, it's up front capital expense, the inability to book your Open Season vacation more than 30 days out, etc. When I boutght, the Open season rates were 1/5 of the rate of a "hotel room", if you do want to compare. Not any more. In Vegas, you can now get a timeshare room on Expedia for cheaper than Open Season rates, months in advance, no capital expense, no point limitations, etc. It has been that way for years. In Hawaii, they are about 65% of a hotel room rate,  ignoring the constant "Hilton Honors special rate" promotions I get weekly for $199 / night which with the other benefits of the hotel room, make it a wash. In addition, Open Season in Hawaii is next to impossible to get, unless you are willing to move every two days to a different unit in a different building and be "homeless" during moving day. It usually means a number of nights getting up just before midnight 30 days in advance to hope you can find something. I've been there. 
My point was Open Season used to be a sales and owner advantage. It is no longer. Over the past 5 years, they have killed the golden goose. As they continue to lessen the brand, sales get harder, the excuses at the annual shareholder meetings get larger, and the business model collapses. That isn't good for shareholder value.


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## brp (Dec 3, 2019)

jestme said:


> Sorry, but as I said in my first post, you cannot compare a hotel room with all the advantages it has over a timeshare. With all the timeshare booking limitations, it's up front capital expense, the inability to book your Open Season vacation more than 30 days out, etc.



I'm not trying to compare them, and was not looking at the model where OS was a actual reason to buy (although maybe it was for some). My view was that one bought a TS to use the TS. OS was an additional non-point benefit, so would compare to a hotel room. Not sure I am aware of "all the advantages" of the hotel room over the timeshare. Hotels are more likely, for example, to have parking charges and resort fees, so I see an advantage for OS there (assuming that they don't do that here, but I'm not sure of that).

Cheers.


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## alwysonvac (Dec 3, 2019)

I can understand a slight increase in open season rates (10% to 15%) but some of these increases are absolutely ridiculous. They’re simply cherry picking the higher demand locations and unit sizes.

*The Lagoon Tower two bedroom weekday nightly rate increased 64%  (from $191/night to $314/night).
The Lagoon Tower three bedroom weekday nightly rate increased 108%  (from $328/night to $684/night).*

Honestly you have to ask yourself where does the price gouging end? How will HGVC boost their numbers in 2021? Will they increase the resale transfer fees by 200%, increase the annual Club dues by 150%, increase the reservation fee by 75% and/or add new fees (perhaps reservation change fee)?

When do owners stop being the gift that keeps on giving? Who is looking at the longer term impacts? As prices rise across the board who is going to own these weeks?



alwysonvac said:


> The following is from their December 2018 Investor Presentation.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Dec 4, 2019)

Boy, am I glad I bought Bay Club. Since I bought it to use, none of those extra fees affect me.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 4, 2019)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Boy, am I glad I bought Bay Club. Since I bought it to use, none of those extra fees affect me.



Well that depends are you a member of the HGVC?  If not you are correct and have none of the benefits or cost increases of the Club effect you.  If so, the cost of Open Season has gone up in prime locations.  So if you do go to the Bay Club using your week or 2 weeks and want to extend your vacation another few days either before or after to get lower cost flights, which is what we have done in Honolulu, you now will pay additional for this benefit just like everyone else.


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## brp (Dec 4, 2019)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Boy, am I glad I bought Bay Club. Since I bought it to use, none of those extra fees affect me.



I'm not sure I understand this. We bought Vegas to use at Bay Club, so we get to use points there at lower MFs. Unless we also want to book more days using OS rates, these changes don't affect us either.

Cheers.


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## fernow (Dec 4, 2019)

brp said:


> Unless we also want to book more days using OS rates, these changes don't affect us either.



First they came for the ... open season.

Ok, bit dramatic but jestme and alwaysonvac make some good points.  Getting nice rooms for significantly less than market because you paid to be part of the "club" was a real benefit used by some club members.  Now that benefit of club membership is gone.

What benefit will they come after next?  We love using our HGVC timeshare points and at some point plan to sell them when we get too old to travel.  The more benefits taken away, the harder our units will be to sell.

So, they came for the open season and since I don't use open season I said nothing.  Then they came for the... ???


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## brp (Dec 4, 2019)

fernow said:


> First they came for the ... open season.
> 
> Ok, bit dramatic but jestme and alwaysonvac make some good points.  Getting nice rooms for significantly less than market because you paid to be part of the "club" was a real benefit used by some club members.  Now that benefit of club membership is gone.
> 
> ...



I guess you (and some others) and I see this differently. As far as I can tell, they have not "come for" the Open Season. It is still there, same as ever. They have just increased the rates. But the program is untouched.

Each year they raise MFs. We get to do the same things with our points each year, but we pay more to do so. However, hotel rates typically go up, so we are still coming out ahead. Same program, increased rates.

Also, while they can rejigger the points in a given property to some degree among seasons/days of week, the overall has to stay the same, as far as I know. So they can't really devalue that much, if at all. I guess they could limit folks to Home Resort only as I believe that booking other resorts is not part of the defined contract. But they're not realistically going to do that.

So, not sure what there is to "come after," especially as I feel that they have not "come after" OS in any significant way expect, perhaps, to make it less of a good deal.

Of course...Apollo...we shall see 

Cheers.


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## fernow (Dec 4, 2019)

brp said:


> ... But they're not realistically going to do that.
> 
> Cheers.



You have more faith then I do!  I sure hope you are right.  You seem to know a lot about HGVC.  I, like you, own in Vegas but mostly travel to the BI and mostly stay at the Bay Club.  Take that away and... well, I don't see me using my Vegas home week too much!

The only constant is change.


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## jonevans (Dec 4, 2019)

Yes open season is costing way more on HGVC    Not my usual do it alot.....  but now JOKE     dam TUG did it here also   Now $800 dollars for last call......    are we seeing a pattern around the world    Things cost more    I need a raise at work to take a vacation


Yes hgvc owner   
Yes tug saved me a lot $$$   
Yes know my 2 properties were bought at good resale price and i have desire of selling at some value, but my purchase moneys were invested with out expectations of returning any value


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## CaliGirl08 (Dec 4, 2019)

I just became an HGVC owner in September.  To raise open season so much is bad for owners.  I used it once and liked the low prices.  If I wanted to pay hotel prices, I didn't need to buy a timeshare.  It's nice with a kitchen but I do not use it every vacation.  I just like the 2-3 bdrms w/ living room concept for my big family.


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## escanoe (Dec 4, 2019)

jonevans said:


> Yes know my 2 properties were bought at good resale price and i have desire of selling at some value, but my purchase moneys were invested with out expectations of returning any value



I have a huge expectation of my resale time shares returning value to me and my family. That is what I bought them for. Do I expect to eventually sell them at a financial profit over what I paid? No.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 4, 2019)

fernow said:


> You have more faith then I do!  I sure hope you are right.  You seem to know a lot about HGVC.  I, like you, own in Vegas but mostly travel to the BI and mostly stay at the Bay Club.  Take that away and... well, I don't see me using my Vegas home week too much!
> 
> The only constant is change.



Well I have some faith.  I was the one who initially found the first large increase in open season rates the HGVC tried to double the rates.  It was in December a number of years ago when I was trying to book 2 nights in early January, a Thursday and Friday at the Hokolani in a 1 BR+, before our previously booked vacation in the Lagoon Tower.  The rate at the time was about $150/night for Thursday and $170/night for Friday.  When I went to confirm the reservation for the 2 nights it came to almost $600.  At that point I stopped and waited to talk with the call center the next morning.  The call center people were totally caught off guard and had no idea what was going on.  They had an executive call me later that morning and told me that she understood the problem and would bring it to her boss the Vice President of Member Services.  As you can see the rates were eventually lowered back and I was able to book the 2 nights at the previous years rates.  Since then the Open Season rates have gone up but not nearly as high as that December day.  

I totally agree with you, that if they take away the ability to exchange to other resort within the HGVC system I am out also.


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## alwysonvac (Dec 4, 2019)

*For those who don't know the history*

In December 2014, HGVC provided their 2015 Open Season rates to the following which brought on the protest:

*Studio were raised to $60 - $290* *(from $60 to $145)*
*One Bedroom were raised to $80 - $580* *(from $80 to $290)*
*Two Bedroom were raised to $105 - $750* (*from $105 to $375)*
*Three Bedroom were raised to $160 - $860* *(from $160 to $430)*

* *​
The table below shows the rates each year leading up to this event in late 2014. We started with a very simple flat rate based on unit size only. It has morphed into all sort of increases based on unit type (standard, plus, premium, etc), day of week (weekday vs weekend), season (platinum, etc) and now locations.






*Folks weren't happy with the earlier rate increases but the rate hike for 2015 simply pushed folks over the edge. **It seems like we're going down that path again with this huge spike as they try to get rates closer to what they charge the public.*

Here's HGVC's December 2014 canned reply on social media:



JenMuse said:


> Sent a tweet - was redirected to a reply to a similar complaint on Facebook...
> 
> Pasting reply here for those who have no desire to go to fb.
> 
> ...


​After lots of complaints, HGVC changed their position in January 2015 and posted the following on social media. I was a very proud TUGGER that day .



Great3 said:


> *I finally took a look at their facebook page....*
> 
> I finally decided to take a look at their facebook page, and I see the following posted by HGVC:
> 
> ...


​
The  TUG threads from Dec 2014 & January 2015
- https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...k-action-we-stood-together-hgvc-acted.221714/
- https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...ke-action-stand-together-and-be-heard.221136/
- https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/open-season-rates-no-longer-a-good-deal.220231/

The *original* 2015 Open Season Rates - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?attachments/2015-hgvclub-fee-schedule-pdf.5225/
The *revised* 2015 Open Season Rates - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?attachments/2fees-eng-rev010715-pdf.5226/


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 5, 2019)

Thanks for providing the precise details for what I recollect from memory.  With the help of the information you provided I found the tread that I started.  From there TUG members wrote to HGVC to complain and the rates were brought back to the 2014 rates for 2015.  

*Open Season Rates no longer a good deal!!*
Discussion in 'Hilton Grand Vacations Club / HGVC' started by Tamaradarann, Dec 4, 2014.


I tried to book an open season reservation for January 1st in a Platinum Season Resort. The rate for a 1 BR+ was $270 for a week night, and $290 for a weekend night. That is ridiculous. I called and wrote to HGVC to complain and tell them that they destroyed a very valuable benefit for HGVC membership. I hope they change their thought on this.


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## alwysonvac (Dec 5, 2019)

I’ll also update my post to make the dates clearer.



Tamaradarann said:


> Thanks for providing the precise details for what I recollect from memory.  With the help of the information you provided I found the tread that I started.  From there TUG members wrote to HGVC to complain and the rates were brought back to the 2014 rates for 2015.
> 
> *Open Season Rates no longer a good deal!!*
> Discussion in 'Hilton Grand Vacations Club / HGVC' started by Tamaradarann, Dec 4, 2014.
> ...



The larger units are taking the biggest hit in the 2020 Open Season rates.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 5, 2019)

I think what is probably happening here is HGVC is simply just re-balancing their price/demand inventory algorithms to better reflect relative demand. Tuscany Village probably went down because there is so much capacity in Orlando, they need to keep the prices cheap to fill as many rooms as possible. But at Lagoon Tower, it makes absolutely no sense to rent something Open Season at $191/night if that same unit rents on Hilton.com for $500-$600 per night or more. That low price creates artificial demand because that rate is so far below the market. By raising the price substantially - but still staying below market - HGV simply manages demand better and still provides an owner a discount. The higher price reduces demand so there are fewer people chasing the few available Open Season Units, and the price better reflects a reasonable discount off the true market. It's all about revenue optimization, so they are probably just doing a better job of analyzing and tweaking their algorithms to optimize the revenue per room night.



jestme said:


> In addition, Open Season in Hawaii is next to impossible to get, unless you are willing to move every two days to a different unit in a different building and be "homeless" during moving day. It usually means a number of nights getting up just before midnight 30 days in advance to hope you can find something...My point was Open Season used to be a sales and owner advantage. It is no longer. Over the past 5 years, they have killed the golden goose.



With the higher prices, maybe now this will be a bit easier to book, and Open Season will still provide a significant discount. @alwysonvac noted above that the 2020 2BR One Season rate at Lagoon Tower comes out to $314/night. By contrast, looking out 30 days on Hilton.com, 2BR units at Lagoon Tower are going for $500 to $800 per night before taxes and fees. So Open Season is still a good deal if you can get it.

I will also add that over the last two years or so my impression has been hotel rates in general have had a big spike up. This is a sample of one, so should be considered anecdotal, not scientific - but over the last two years, I've paid for more $400-$500 hotel nights than in my previous six decades combined. It seems like rates have really spiked.


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## brp (Dec 5, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I think what is probably happening here is HGVC is simply just re-balancing their price/demand inventory algorithms to better reflect relative demand. Tuscany Village probably went down because there is so much capacity in Orlando, they need to keep the prices cheap to fill as many rooms as possible. But at Lagoon Tower, it makes absolutely no sense to rent something Open Season at $191/night if that same unit rents on Hilton.com for $500-$600 per night or more. That low price creates artificial demand because that rate is so far below the market. By raising the price substantially - but still staying below market - HGV simply manages demand better and still provides an owner a discount. The higher price reduces demand so there are fewer people chasing the few available Open Season Units, and the price better reflects a reasonable discount off the true market. It's all about revenue optimization, so they are probably just doing a better job of analyzing and tweaking their algorithms to optimize the revenue per room night.



Exactly, and amplifies what was stated above. The rates are still competitive with market, just not a steal. And, as you say, this better manages demand. So, it would seem that the sky is not falling after all. We're just getting a good deal rather than a ridiculously good deal.

Cheers.


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 5, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I think what is probably happening here is HGVC is simply just re-balancing their price/demand inventory algorithms to better reflect relative demand. Tuscany Village probably went down because there is so much capacity in Orlando, they need to keep the prices cheap to fill as many rooms as possible. But at Lagoon Tower, it makes absolutely no sense to rent something Open Season at $191/night if that same unit rents on Hilton.com for $500-$600 per night or more. That low price creates artificial demand because that rate is so far below the market. By raising the price substantially - but still staying below market - HGV simply manages demand better and still provides an owner a discount. The higher price reduces demand so there are fewer people chasing the few available Open Season Units, and the price better reflects a reasonable discount off the true market. It's all about revenue optimization, so they are probably just doing a better job of analyzing and tweaking their algorithms to optimize the revenue per room night.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



While I generally agree, here are two additional thoughts:

1) With 95% occupancy, I doubt there is much open season availability at Lagoon Tower so whether it's $190 or $340 may be moot unless you are booking the bottom of season for a day here or there and it happens to add onto your travel schedule. It would be next to impossible to find 5 consecutive days at Lagoon during OS.

2) Although hotel prices have spiked, I doubt these fees will go down commensurately when we hit a downturn and hotel fees plummet.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Dec 5, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> Well that depends are you a member of the HGVC?  If not you are correct and have none of the benefits or cost increases of the Club effect you.  If so, the cost of Open Season has gone up in prime locations.  So if you do go to the Bay Club using your week or 2 weeks and want to extend your vacation another few days either before or after to get lower cost flights, which is what we have done in Honolulu, you now will pay additional for this benefit just like everyone else.



I am not a member of HGVC - by choice. Nor do I seek to get the lowest possible airfares. (I often fly the top US class - First or Business, as you wish. No bargains there.) What I pay for is best access to the weeks I want. (A Penthouse, winter high season, in a block.)

Yes, I could have gone the cheaper Vegas swap route, but then I'd be in the main pack for reservations. (And at the rate all the fees keep going up, it may not end much cheaper.)


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## jestme (Dec 5, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I think what is probably happening here is HGVC is simply just re-balancing their price/demand inventory algorithms to better reflect relative demand. Tuscany Village probably went down because there is so much capacity in Orlando, they need to keep the prices cheap to fill as many rooms as possible. But at Lagoon Tower, it makes absolutely no sense to rent something Open Season at $191/night if that same unit rents on Hilton.com for $500-$600 per night or more.


Keep in mind, Hilton.com no longer has anything to do with HGVC. Also, Hilton owns the hotel rooms on Hilton.com whereas HGVC is simply acting as an agent for the real HGVC owners of the unused rooms they are renting out in Open Season. The Lagoon Tower is 100% sold out, has been for years. If they had those rooms as part of an exchange, they would be renting them out on Hilton.com or Expedia, not Open Season. But they can't. They don't own them. Also, hotels can be booked a year in advance, so if they want to match pricing to hotel prices, they need to match them to the discounted rates available right near check-in dates, not the "rack rate" that no one pays 8 months in advance. The also need to provide daily room service and other hotel room advantages as well. In addition, the local hotel gets revenue from the Hilton.com rental, as they have the direct expenses for the stay, whereas the HOA of the timeshare does not.


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## fernow (Dec 6, 2019)

So they substantially devalued one of your benefits of membership. No big deal.
Wow.
Just... wow.


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 6, 2019)

This seems to be an industry trend - especially with the hotels separating from the timeshare groups.

Over on the MVC forum there are owners who said they purchased MVC in the 1990s and could book several weeks at Marriott Hotels and were sold on funding their retirement travel with just one week. Remember Travel 401ks? Now they are lucky if their week converts to a few nights at a Courtyard hotel. Nice retirement, eh?

None of the TS companies have changed their conversion rates even though the hotel points have devalued significantly. Marriott now charges resort fees on award nights turning the concept of a "free" credit card night on it's head with a devaluation. Even as I look on HHonors. We used to be able to get a top hotel for 80 - 90k a night. Now that has skyrocketed.


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## alwysonvac (Dec 6, 2019)

*Increases are one sided.*

As an owner, my annual cost are increasing as well.

Maintenance Fees
Annual Club Dues
Transaction Fees
HGVC offers owners a fix rate exchange for Hilton Honor Points and Club Partner exchanges that DO NOT INCREASE.

However on the flip side, HGVC continues to increase Open Season Rates which allows them to make more than what they are providing in exchange.

And we get to pay for this “_Club Member benefit_” every year via our increasing annual Club dues. How is this a benefit?

For my Lagoon Tower week, I rather have the option of opting out of the Club.
Yeah, I know no ClubPoints (home week only) but also no annual Club Dues and no transaction fees. The minimal additional cost now is approaching the $300 mark ($182 for 2020 Club Dues + $67 for 2019 Club reservation fee).


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## JIMinNC (Dec 6, 2019)

jestme said:


> Keep in mind, Hilton.com no longer has anything to do with HGVC. Also, Hilton owns the hotel rooms on Hilton.com whereas HGVC is simply acting as an agent for the real HGVC owners of the unused rooms they are renting out in Open Season. The Lagoon Tower is 100% sold out, has been for years. If they had those rooms as part of an exchange, they would be renting them out on Hilton.com or Expedia, not Open Season. But they can't. They don't own them. Also, hotels can be booked a year in advance, so if they want to match pricing to hotel prices, they need to match them to the discounted rates available right near check-in dates, not the "rack rate" that no one pays 8 months in advance. The also need to provide daily room service and other hotel room advantages as well. In addition, the local hotel gets revenue from the Hilton.com rental, as they have the direct expenses for the stay, whereas the HOA of the timeshare does not.



This is not correct. HGV absolutely can, and does, rent inventory controlled by HGV on Hilton.com. You can rent most, if not all, HGV properties on Hilton.com. Here are several categories of units for rent in early January at Lagoon Tower and Kalia, for example:





These are the actual rates, roughly 30 days out (just like Open Season). As you can see, Open Season is still a better deal.

When someone rents an HGV unit on Hilton.com, they get the same benefits as they would with a hotel, like daily room cleaning, even though it is a timeshare unit. And in most cases, Hilton does not own the hotel rooms they rent out on Hilton.com either. The Hilton hotels themselves are almost always owned by REITs, investment firms, etc. Hilton Hotels Corp just acts as the property manager and/or reservation agent. It's similar for the Hilton Grand Vacations units that are listed on Hilton.com. Those are rented out on Hilton.com by virtue of the marketing agreements that HGV has with Hilton Hotels Corp.

While you are correct that a property like Lagoon Tower is largely sold out, HGV still winds up controlling inventory at virtually all of their resorts - when owners convert their week to Hilton Honors points, when sold units are reacquired through owner upgrades, ROFR, or foreclosure (until resold), etc. etc. That's how they get inventory to rent on Hilton.com.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 6, 2019)

alwysonvac said:


> *Increases are one sided.*
> 
> As an owner, my annual cost are increasing as well.
> 
> ...



Companies like HGV are in business to make a profit. Investors want to see profits grow so the value of their stock ownership will grow. Companies can grow profits by either increasing revenue or reducing costs. I don't own HGV stock, but I do want all of the companies I do own to grow. As a result, I expect the price of everything I spend money on to go up over time, especially during a strong economic cycle when consumer demand is strong, and with high-quality brands like HGV. That's a main reason why companies invest so much in building their brand identity - a powerful brand gives them pricing power over weaker brands.


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## brp (Dec 6, 2019)

fernow said:


> So they substantially devalued one of your benefits of membership. No big deal.
> Wow.
> Just... wow.



If it's a benefit I don't use then, yeah, no big deal.
Also, since it's still cheaper than equivalent hotel rates, it's still a benefit should I choose to use it.

Cheers.


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 6, 2019)

The problem is that the price increases defy physics...i.e. what goes up, will *never *come down.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 6, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The problem is that the price increases defy physics...i.e. what goes up, will *never *come down.



That's true for most all prices, over time. See below.


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## alwysonvac (Dec 6, 2019)

Silly me, what was I think ... they need to make a profit!

In 2021, they should eliminate Open Season rates all together and raise annual Club dues and transaction fees by 100% each year. 
In 2022, they should raise their HOA management fees by 150% each year.
In 2023, they should raise transfer fees and enrollment/activation fees by 200% each year.
In 2024, they should start charging us ... daily resort fees! 
In 2025, they should start charging us a resort check-in fee.

Sorry, just having a little fun.


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 6, 2019)

@alwysonvac LOL. Don't give them any ideas.

Seriously, If this happens they will see a lot of abandonments on their hands. Timeshares are only as good as they compare to the rental market. Right now the rental market is robust. However when the next downturn ensues, hotel rates will plummet putting MF upside down. Sadly this is what happened to Diamond after their relentless greed drove them to raise fees beyond market conditions. Biggest difference is that they raised rates and MF so high that they are still upside down in a *robust* market. 

(Stupid management move...Diamond now has the lowest percentage of new sales in the industry (25% vs 49%), unhappy owners, and Apollo has a billion dollar albatross around their neck that they cannot sell but allowed this to happen...)


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## JIMinNC (Dec 6, 2019)

alwysonvac said:


> Silly me, what was I think ... they need to make a profit!
> 
> In 2021, they should eliminate Open Season rates all together and raise annual Club dues and transaction fees by 100% each year.
> In 2022, they should raise their HOA management fees by 150% each year.
> ...



Clearly, increases like that would have major customer blow-back. I recognize your post was in jest, but the reality is, that is always the balancing act companies have to make when raising prices/adding fees - how much will the market bear before the larger business is negatively impacted. Quite a few years ago, I worked in product management for a large bank, and when rate spreads narrowed, we had a major push to increase fee-based income to offset the reduced net interest income. Through research, as well as trial and error, we found the fees that our customers were most willing to pay. That's how we started charging fees to use ATMs that used to always be free - we found our customers were willing to pay much more than we ever thought they would for the convenience of using off-site ATMs. 

The baggage fees, premium seat upcharges, and other a la carte fees now charged by airlines are another example of companies finding creative ways to grow revenue. Those fees now represent a key area of positive revenue growth for that industry.

Finally, be careful about what you say in jest - those increases you hypothesized sound a lot like some of the increases we experienced during our sad years as a Diamond owner. With the Apollo/HGV rumors still not having been put to rest, that possibility strikes a little too close to home!


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## alwysonvac (Dec 6, 2019)

And an old TUG poll showed that 50% of our peers bought from the developer.
Thankfully, TUG most likely saved the other remaining half 

For some, buying from the developer meant losing tens of thousands and for others it’s in the hundreds of thousands. But every resale week starts off as a developer week. *The money owners gave up front to the developer was supposed to be for these so called Club Benefits (aka Savings). The only valuable club benefit left is Open Season rates.*

HGVC developer prices are extremely high. Folks have reported the following this year :

14,400 points for $129,900 or monthly mortgage payments of $1800 for ten years.
8400 points for $60,000
7000 points for $60,000

I’ve only used Open Season three or four times during my 10+ years ownership so this is not a devastating blow for me. I’m just pissed based on principle. I don’t expect Open Season rental rates to stay frozen and I know eventually the savings will decrease over time but I also don’t expect ridiculous spikes to get us there quicker.


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## frank808 (Dec 6, 2019)

Never have used OS in about 10 years of HGVC ownership.  While no loss to me I am still appalled that HGVC does this.  I though OS rooms at Lagoon tower belong to the owners of the deed.  These are days that owners did not use and HGVC is renting out as breakage to line their bottom lines.  They do not own the unit or even pay the MF as the owners have.  Pretty good racket, I can make money off of someone else paying for the upkeep and not even giving something back to at least the HOA.  Total profit for no expense and I even got paid by the HOA to do this via the management fee.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 7, 2019)

alwysonvac said:


> And an old TUG poll showed that 50% of our peers bought from the developer.
> Thankfully, TUG most likely saved the other remaining half
> 
> For some, buying from the developer meant losing tens of thousands and for others it’s in the hundreds of thousands. But every resale week starts off as a developer week. *The money owners gave up front to the developer was supposed to be for these so called Club Benefits (aka Savings). The only valuable club benefit left is Open Season rates.*
> ...



I agree that excessive Open Season rates take away a benefit that HGVC owners should have.  My previous posts illustrate my negative reaction to that 2015 ridiculous increase that they eventually walked back.  While the recent increases are very annoying they are much less than that initial walked back increase and it is 5 years later so hotel costs have increased significantly in those 5 years.  We all know that the developer sales pitch that buying timeshares locks in your costs of vacation forever is another one of their lies.  In your last few posts you have pointed out some extreme examples of the possible increases that timeshare companies can and do implement to make timesharing not worth it.  Hopefully, none of what you put out there really happens, and we only have to deal with a significant but somewhat reasonable Open Season rate increase.


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 7, 2019)

frank808 said:


> Never have used OS in about 10 years of HGVC ownership.  While no loss to me I am still appalled that HGVC does this.  I though OS rooms at Lagoon tower belong to the owners of the deed.  These are days that owners did not use and HGVC is renting out as breakage to line their bottom lines.  They do not own the unit or even pay the MF as the owners have.  Pretty good racket, I can make money off of someone else paying for the upkeep and not even giving something back to at least the HOA.  Total profit for no expense and I even got paid by the HOA to do this via the management fee.



I wonder if pressure from Apollo/Diamond and other acquirers is causing them to do this to increase their quarterly results to extract a higher selling price.


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## tombanjo (Dec 7, 2019)

i doubt it as open season is probably a very small part of revenue, and might belong to the developer in many cases


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## SteelerGal (Dec 7, 2019)

Before we sold our MarBrisa, I used OS at least 3x/yr.  Since MarBrisa is connected to Legoland, OS is an excellent deal.


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## jestme (Dec 7, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> This is not correct. HGV absolutely can, and does, rent inventory controlled by HGV on Hilton.com. You can rent most, if not all, HGV properties on Hilton.com. Here are several categories of units for rent in early January at Lagoon Tower and Kalia, for example:
> 
> View attachment 15331
> 
> ...


 

The units you see on Hilton.com are in fact from owners who have traded their HGVC units and points in to HIlton for some other benefit. A cruise, an RCI exchange, etc. Yes, those prices reflect pricing in the hotel world. However, Open Season would be a last resort for them to use that inventory on, as they control it and can make far more on the retail market.
The rest of the inventory you see as Open Season is merely HGVC Owners Weeks, which are not booked by an HGVC member at the 30 day out level. Similar to Club Season, which are rooms that are not booked by owners in the Home Season. They have not been exchanged for anything, so Hilton does not "own" or "control" them, they are just weeks that are not being used. HGVC are merely acting as a agent for other HGVC owners to rent those rooms for points during (plus a reservation fee) Club Season, or cash during Open Season that would not otherwise be utilized in the next 30 days.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 7, 2019)

jestme said:


> The units you see on Hilton.com are in fact from owners who have traded their HGVC units and points in to HIlton for some other benefit. A cruise, an RCI exchange, etc. Yes, those prices reflect pricing in the hotel world. However, Open Season would be a last resort for them to use that inventory on, as they control it and can make far more on the retail market.
> The rest of the inventory you see as Open Season is merely HGVC Owners Weeks, which are not booked by an HGVC member at the 30 day out level. Similar to Club Season, which are rooms that are not booked by owners in the Home Season. They have not been exchanged for anything, so Hilton does not "own" or "control" them, they are just weeks that are not being used. HGVC are merely acting as a agent for other HGVC owners to rent those rooms for points during (plus a reservation fee) Club Season, or cash during Open Season that would not otherwise be utilized in the next 30 days.



Correct. But when an owner exchanges their week or HGV points for Honors points, cruises, etc., or the days go otherwise unused by the time Open Season rolls around, HGV does obtain defacto “control” of those dates. If they were acting as an agent for the owner as you suggest, then the revenue from the Open Season rental would go to the owner, but any Open Season revenue goes to HGV. So when an owner uses an alternative benefit, or once it goes unused at Open Season, control effectively reverts to HGV.


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## bevans (Dec 7, 2019)

I gave up on Open Season after 2015 because I did the math and using points was far more economical plus being able to reserve and cancel much farther out. I bought another 7000 point at Flamingo on the secondary market and am quite happy with the using it instead of OS.  I did not use RCI for years because of fees but have been using Last Call of late and is better than OS by far. I am retired so more flexible than people working still so it might not work for all but is does for us. Curt


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## jehb2 (Dec 8, 2019)

brp said:


> The question is: even though it is getting higher for us than it used to be, how does it compare to rates at equivalent hotels in the area? Because that's the point at which it becomes an obsolete concept due to overpricing. And I'm not as familiar with room rates in these areas, so I can't say where they are on that spectrum (and I also wouldn't put it past them to overprice despite what I said ). But just raising prices is not enough to obsolete the model. It needs context.



I know this much. 20 years ago before we had kids were able to travel at anytime and at the late minute.  We paid $60.00 a night (open season) and stayed in Lagoon Tower, South Beach, and a couple of other locations.  $60.00 was waaaaay cheaper than the out-of-pocket costs for a hotel in Waikiki.  And this was before all the extra “resort fees” that hotels now charge.


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## alwysonvac (Dec 8, 2019)

Hawaii hotel performance

SOURCE - https://www.hawaiisenatemajority.co...performance-report-through-third-quarter-2019





SOURCE - https://www.hawaiitourismauthority.org/research/infrastructure-research/


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## alwysonvac (Dec 8, 2019)

*Open Season Rates changes from 2015 to 2020*

I basically selected a single resort for each destination.
For each resort location, the lowest unit type for each unit size and the single highest unit type/size overall were include. 

_NOTE:_
_In 2015, there was a separate Open Season chart for NY. The remaining locations used a single default table (gray shaded cells)_
_In 2016, there were separate Open Season charts for FL, LV, HI, NY. The remaining locations used a single default table (gray shaded cells)_
_In 2017, there were separate Open Season charts for FL, LV, HI, NY, SC, DC. The remaining locations used a single default table_


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## alwysonvac (Dec 8, 2019)

From HGV 10-Q On October 31, 2019 - https://investors.hgv.com/financial-reporting/sec-filings


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## dougp26364 (Dec 8, 2019)

This is a GREAT example of why you should NEVER base a timeshare purchase on a benefit that is not guaranteed or, at the very least, can be modified at managements discretion.

I've had salesmen from several companies get steamed when I point out the benefits they’re selling today are not guaranteed for tomorrow. The first back stab came when DRI changed its quite private owners lounge atop Polo Towers into a loud public dance club and then turned into private office space. When they were selling that resort they made certain to parade potential buyers through it promoting as a benefit of owners for owners only.
Marriott use to sell weeks for their conversion to hotel rewards points and being a Marriott Rewards Millionaire.
Sunterra use to sell points and tell prospects they could reserve and rent for a profit, then later enforced the rule against it.
I remember HGVC selling the open season as a benefit worthy of becoming an owner. So glad that benefit wasn’t a reason for us to become owners.


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## alwysonvac (Dec 8, 2019)

dougp26364 said:


> This is a GREAT example of why you should NEVER base a timeshare purchase on a benefit that is not guaranteed or, at the very least, can be modified at managements discretion...



But sadly, almost everything about the program can be modified at management’s discretion.

From the 2019 Club Rule (page 20)

_*Program Changes.* Club program use options, fees and rules, including but not limited to, the RCI Exchange Program, special exchanges, nightly point values, reservation windows, __the Hilton Honors program, ClubPoint Saving, RCI Depositing, Borrowing, Converting, and ClubPartner Perks that may be offered from time to time, are subject to change, adjustment, suspension or discontinuation without notice . Any such changes will not apply to transactions confirmed prior to the effective date of any such change . In the event the point values for accommodations are adjusted, such adjustments shall not disturb the one-to-one purchaser to accommodation ratio, or a Club Member’s ability to reserve their Home Week ._​


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## frank808 (Dec 8, 2019)

jehb2 said:


> I know this much. 20 years ago before we had kids were able to travel at anytime and at the late minute.  We paid $60.00 a night (open season) and stayed in Lagoon Tower, South Beach, and a couple of other locations.  $60.00 was waaaaay cheaper than the out-of-pocket costs for a hotel in Waikiki.  And this was before all the extra “resort fees” that hotels now charge.


I thought south beach Mcalpin Ocean Plaza was added to HGVC within he past 8 years or so?  Thanks

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## alwysonvac (Dec 8, 2019)

frank808 said:


> I thought south beach Mcalpin Ocean Plaza was added to HGVC within he past 8 years or so?  Thanks
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



It originally opened in 1998 as Hilton Grand Vacations Club at South Beach - Miami


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## frank808 (Dec 8, 2019)

alwysonvac said:


> It originally opened in 1998 as Hilton Grand Vacations Club at South Beach - Miami


Thanks for the info.  Were both buildings back then part of HGVC also?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## alwysonvac (Dec 9, 2019)

frank808 said:


> Thanks for the info.  Were both buildings back then part of HGVC also?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Yes both buildings (McAlpin & Ocean Plaza) were part of HGVC. 
See this old 2007 thread - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/hgvc-south-beach-miami-question.48350/

In 2014, HGVC changed the name of several resorts. HGVC at South Beach was included. 
See this old thread - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/3-resorts-change-their-name-for-2014.203814/


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## dougp26364 (Dec 9, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> I can't imagine electric cars taking off until (1) there are more convenient easy to find charging stations; (2) batteries are developed that hold their charges longer; and (3) batteries are developed that can be charged in a whole lot less time...
> 
> George





alwysonvac said:


> But sadly, almost everything about the program can be modified at management’s discretion.
> 
> From the 2019 Club Rule (page 20)
> 
> _*Program Changes.* Club program use options, fees and rules, including but not limited to, the RCI Exchange Program, special exchanges, nightly point values, reservation windows, __the Hilton Honors program, ClubPoint Saving, RCI Depositing, Borrowing, Converting, and ClubPartner Perks that may be offered from time to time, are subject to change, adjustment, suspension or discontinuation without notice . Any such changes will not apply to transactions confirmed prior to the effective date of any such change . In the event the point values for accommodations are adjusted, such adjustments shall not disturb the one-to-one purchaser to accommodation ratio, or a Club Member’s ability to reserve their Home Week ._​




While this is true, some things, like open season rates, are much easier to modify without an owner revolt, like, say, revising existing points requirements to reserve specific units. Plus, they would have a problem if they were to Jack the rates on a 2 bedroom standard unit with giving those owners a corresponding increase in allotted points, this keeping things reasonably equal.

My point being you should buy a timeshare to use as a timeshare, not based on extra benefits such as hotel rewards points, owner bonus usage, getaways or extra vacations with II or RCI or even the ability to get great trades with II or RCI.

MANY things have changed since we started with timeshare. Floating weeks, points, trust based ownership et..... But the basic usage rights has remained fairly consistent were as the “extras” have changed frequently. When a salesman ventures into the quicksand of extras, the presentation is over. I didn’t but HGVC for open season and we didn’t buy into Marriott to become Marriott Millionaires with trading units for hotel rewards points. We bought to use and, while there have been notable modifications, the basic right to use has remained reasonably stable


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## alwysonvac (Dec 9, 2019)

dougp26364 said:


> ...My point being you should buy a timeshare to use as a timeshare, not based on extra benefits such as hotel rewards points, owner bonus usage, getaways or extra vacations with II or RCI or even the ability to get great trades with II or RCI.



oh, I agree and there are a few of us that caution folks that come back from a presentation looking to buy.

Sadly, they’re still highlighting all of these benefits in order to get the sale. The following was posted from a person who attended a timeshare presentation in March 2019 (link)


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## dougp26364 (Dec 9, 2019)

alwysonvac said:


> oh, I agree and there are a few of us that caution folks that come back from a presentation looking to buy.
> 
> Sadly, they’re still highlighting all of these benefits in order to get the sale. The following was posted from a person who attended a timeshare presentation in March 2019 (link)



All I can say is wow. It’s been so long since we’ve taken a “newbie” tour (it’s all been owner updates within the systems we own) I didn’t know they were still shoveling that much shit. 

We stopped taking tours outside our own systems because my wife was afraid I’d get my butt whipped by the sales staff for calling them out on their lies, half truths or pointing out most of what they were selling wasn’t guaranteed and subject to change at any minute. At least with the owners updates I can keep my mouth shut when they try to sell me on the benefits of elite status, which have level changes and benefit changes every time the direction of the wind changes.


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## GeorgeJ. (Dec 9, 2019)

alwysonvac said:


> Silly me, what was I think ... they need to make a profit!
> 
> In 2021, they should eliminate Open Season rates all together and raise annual Club dues and transaction fees by 100% each year.
> In 2022, they should raise their HOA management fees by 150% each year.
> ...


The Las Vegas HGVC resorts (I believe that Trump is still an exception to this) already charge a daily resort fee if you trade in through RCI... so seriously, what's to stop them from charging a resort fee to owners if you book through HGVC...


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 9, 2019)

GeorgeJ. said:


> The Las Vegas HGVC resorts (I believe that Trump is still an exception to this) already charge a daily resort fee if you trade in through RCI... so seriously, what's to stop them from charging a resort fee to owners if you book through HGVC...



Owners walking...


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## dayooper (Dec 9, 2019)

GeorgeJ. said:


> The Las Vegas HGVC resorts (I believe that Trump is still an exception to this) already charge a daily resort fee if you trade in through RCI... so seriously, what's to stop them from charging a resort fee to owners if you book through HGVC...





CalGalTraveler said:


> Owners walking...



DRI is a great example of this. When they jacked up their fees, they had very few new sales and owners just walking. Their name is so damaged within the business.


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 9, 2019)

dayooper said:


> DRI is a great example of this. When they jacked up their fees, they had very few new sales and owners just walking. Their name is so damaged within the business.



I have spent some time lurking on the DRI board since the HGVC bid. Diamond is not a formula for success in this business. Unlike HGVC, my observation is that there are very few people wanting to join the Diamond system, and many existing owners hanging in there but questioning their ownership and thus planning for an exit at an opportune time, or owners who want out and Diamond making draconian moves to limit them. More outflow than inflow.

I hear owners like the variety of locations and a number of the properties are nice, but I don't hear many, who rave about the program. The biggest complaint being about the excessive MF cost and fees of the program relative to simply renting hotel rooms and condos in the areas they serve.

I hope HGVC is not headed down this path.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 10, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I have spent some time lurking on the DRI board since the HGVC bid. Diamond is not a formula for success in this business. Unlike HGVC, my observation is that there are very few people wanting to join the Diamond system, and many existing owners hanging in there but questioning their ownership and thus planning for an exit at an opportune time, or owners who want out and Diamond making draconian moves to limit them. More outflow than inflow.
> 
> I hear owners like the variety of locations and a number of the properties are nice, but I don't hear many, who rave about the program. The biggest complaint being about the excessive MF cost and fees of the program relative to simply renting hotel rooms and condos in the areas they serve.
> 
> I hope HGVC is not headed down this path.



DRI would be a decent system except they jacked their management fees to damn high. 

They use to try to get deeded owners to convert their weeks to trust points, but no one would because the trust management fees were to high. When we enrolled our weeks into THE Club (keep your deed but can participate in points) it was a flat management fee of $135, which was reasonable. Then when owners wouldn’t convert deeds to trust points, they changed the fee structure and THE Club management fee went to $545 for us..... with approx 5% yearly increases and without any significant benefits added. Just bend over and take it or change your deeds to trust points. We choose to vote with our feet and walk. One of the best decisions I ever made.


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## jehb2 (Dec 11, 2019)

frank808 said:


> I thought south beach Mcalpin Ocean Plaza was added to HGVC within he past 8 years or so?  Thanks
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



The last time we stayed at HGVC South Beach we went clubbing around midnight (still to early for South Beach) and I wore a mini skirt. Yeah, that was definitely close to 20 years ago.


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## GeorgeJ. (Dec 11, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Owners walking...


Since it's HGVC and not RCI that are charging the resort fees in Las Vegas, it would be easy enough for HGVC to exempt HGVC owners (owners of any HGVC resort) from the resort fee. I have no idea what the percentage would be of RCI exchanges by HGVC owners into HGVC resorts, but I would expect that it's a small number. It would be no big deal for them to exempt HGVC owners from the resort fee.
I believe that HGVC Strip charges for parking if you rent through Hilton.com or exchange in through RCI. But they exempt HGVC owners who trade in. I don't recall them charging me the parking fee when I have rented there through Hilton.com either since I'm an HGVC owner...
We have not used Open Season since the old rates ($60 and $80) started being jacked up by HGVC. So much for that "benefit"...


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## magmue (Dec 11, 2019)

> It would be no big deal for them to exempt HGVC owners from the resort fee.


But HGVC probably makes more money if HGVC owners use their HGVC points to book other HGVC resorts. Anything that makes booking HGVC through RCI less appealing adds to their bottom line, I would guess.


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## alwysonvac (Dec 13, 2019)

alwysonvac said:


> *Open Season Rates changes from 2015 to 2020*
> 
> I basically selected a single resort for each destination.
> For each resort location, the lowest unit type for each unit size and the single highest unit type/size overall were include.
> ...



Just reporting this information again so it can be seen clearly.

I created this spreadsheet to
#1 show that rates between 2015 and 2019 have been inreasing at a reasonable rate for the most part
#2 show which destinations and unit sizes got hit hardest for 2020


*Open Season Rates changes from 2015 to 2020*

I basically selected a single resort for each destination since the rates are similar.
To keep it simple, for each resort location, I selected the lowest unit type for each unit size and the single highest unit type/size overall was also included.

_NOTE:_
_In 2015, HGVC had a separate Open Season chart for NY. The remaining locations used a single default table (gray shaded cells)_
_In 2016, HGVC created separate Open Season charts for FL, LV, HI, NY. The remaining locations used a single default table (gray shaded cells)_
_In 2017, HGVC created separate Open Season charts for FL, LV, HI, NY, SC, DC. The remaining locations used a single default table_
_In 2018 and beyond, HGVC created separate Open Season charts for each individual resort._


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 13, 2019)

Wow. A platinum weekend one bedroom at W57 in OS is cheaper than 2015 rates $302 vs. $440/night in 2015. If I were local this would be great but with airfare from Calif, it's hard to get good fares on such short notice. Especially since SWA abandoned EWR.


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## win555 (Jun 21, 2020)

What happens to unsold inventory? Does the club rent it out to general public and share a portion of that revenue with the HOA at the individual resort?


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## SmithOp (Jun 21, 2020)

win555 said:


> What happens to unsold inventory? Does the club rent it out to general public and share a portion of that revenue with the HOA at the individual resort?



The developer owns it and can do whatever they wish with it. The HOA/Club gets no share.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## win555 (Jun 21, 2020)

SmithOp said:


> The developer owns it and can do whatever they wish with it. The HOA/Club gets no share.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


This is a huge conflict of interest. I posted my follow up thoughts in this thread.









						Implications of new high points resorts and high open season rates
					

As I was doing some reading in a few threads, I came up with a hypothesis. I don't have any data to test the hypothesis but I'm posting it for discussion.  Hypothesis: HGVC is introducing high points resorts and high open season rates to benefit their own bottom line at the expense of new and...




					tugbbs.com


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## GT75 (Jun 21, 2020)

win555 said:


> This is a huge conflict of interest.


I don't agree because the developer is the owner of the unsold inventory.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 21, 2020)

If I were to rent my unit, I wouldn't be expected to share my profits with the HOA. HGV owns those units and pay MF on them, why different?


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## win555 (Jun 21, 2020)

My bad. I meant unbooked inventory and not unsold inventory. Some of the dates available to book could be from owners who didn't book for whatever reason. So the unbooked inventory is used by deverloper for their own financial benefit but the but owners lost the inventory (through their own negligence).


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## SmithOp (Jun 22, 2020)

win555 said:


> My bad. I meant unbooked inventory and not unsold inventory. Some of the dates available to book could be from owners who didn't book for whatever reason. So the unbooked inventory is used by deverloper for their own financial benefit but the but owners lost the inventory (through their own negligence).



Its clearly stated in the Club Rules document every year, can’t really fault HGV for owners negligence in not using what they paid for. 

Use of Accommodations by HGV. 

Beginning the first day of the Open Season reservation window, Hilton Grand Vacations reserves the right to utilize accommodations for its own purposes including for exchange, inspection visits, promotions, rentals, special programs, or any other purposes in Hilton Grand Vacations’ sole discretion . Additionally, when a Member exchanges their ClubPoints for benefits or services other than Affiliated Resort accommodations, such as ClubPartner Perk reservations or Honors points, Hilton Grand Vacations must pay the third party for the Member’s use thereof . As such, Hilton Grand Vacations, in its sole discretion, may rent or otherwise use the accommodations relinquished by that Member or other unused inventory to cover the cost of such third party benefits and services . 

In renting accommodations as described herein, HGV may use historical reservation data for the property to forecast the accommodations projected to remain unused by Club Members or to be used by Club Members for other benefits and services requiring monetization by HGVC and rent such accommodations prior to the start of the Open Season reservation window in order to maximize occupancy levels at the property .

Additionally, inventory owned by a developer or an affiliated resort and not yet sold, may be made available for reservation by Members or used by the developer for any purpose including but not limited to, exchange, rental, Elite privileges and promotional purposes .




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## Sandy VDH (Jun 22, 2020)

Having a single OS rate, based on unit size alone, was kind of crazy as one size does NOT fit all. 

Having the same price in Orlando, the most overly populated timeshare location, to say Oahu.  This is not an apples to apples comparison.  So those OS deals were great for those higher urban and tropical locations, like Hawaii. 

Well they did an adjustment that dealt with the inequality.  Did they price Hawaii out of the great deal and into something top close to public rates, yes, they did, in my opinion.

But in my 25 years of HGVC ownership, I have used OS in Hawaii only once, but I scored and Lagoon Oceanfront 2 BR.  I have also only used an additional week in Vegas in a 2 BR Elara.  So if I don't use it all that much in the future, then so be it.  

I looked at how stupid some rates are, like Crane, Barbados, like there was even availability via HGVC.  But if the resort actually rents the unit CHEAPER than the OS rate, what exactly is the point. 

Like everything change is inevitable.  Grip about and then get on with the adjust to how you work it.


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## win555 (Jun 22, 2020)

Sandy VDH said:


> I looked at how stupid some rates are, like Crane, Barbados, like there was even availability via HGVC.  But if the resort actually rents the unit CHEAPER than the OS rate, what exactly is the point.


The point is it is an intentional manipulation by HGV so that owners don't book the OS rates. Because if owners book the OS rates, then they won't have available inventory to rent out and make money off of.

Compare this with Marriott where they give you a 25 or 35% discount on whatever rates are available on Marriott.com


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## ljmiii (Jun 22, 2020)

win555 said:


> Compare this with Marriott where they give you a 25 or 35% discount on whatever rates are available on Marriott.com


Yeah...but in over a decade of MVCI ownership and trying 3-4 times a year I have NEVER seen availability on that discounted rate. Maybe if I was trying for Orlando low season...but not where/when we travel.


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## win555 (Jun 22, 2020)

ljmiii said:


> Yeah...but in over a decade of MVCI ownership and trying 3-4 times a year I have NEVER seen availability on that discounted rate. Maybe if I was trying for Orlando low season...but not where/when we travel.



Interesting.. I should have expected some level of scummy behavior on Marriott's part. After all they sells timeshares so they can't be trusted.


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## ljmiii (Jun 22, 2020)

win555 said:


> Interesting.. I should have expected some level of scummy behavior on Marriott's part. After all they sells timeshares so they can't be trusted.


I don't think it's scummy at all. The discount is a way to fill unwanted villas...nothing more or less. We just never travel where/when few people want to go.


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