# ROFR at WKORV



## Neil (Jan 17, 2013)

I won an eBay bid for an EOY 2Bedroom Lockout Unit (Ocean View) at WKORV for $6,700. This is way less than what I was willing to pay and now I'm concerned about ROFR. Can I increase the eBay winning bid to avoid Starwood's ROFR? Any advice what I should offer for this 6th floor ocean view?
Can you roll the escrow and selling costs into the purchase price or does Starwood look right through that?


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## LisaRex (Jan 17, 2013)

Are you sure it was a fixed 6th floor EOY 2 bdrm OV unit? If it's fixed, it also has a week attached to it. Otherwise it's float and there's no guarantee of the floor.  I looked on ebay and couldn't find it.

I wouldn't bid more to try and get past the ROFR because there's no way of knowing if they want or need an EOY unit right now.  I'd let it go through and see how it goes.


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## PamMo (Jan 17, 2013)

My bet is no way will it pass ROFR at that price, even with closing costs and first year MF's added in. The developer price is listed at $71,900 for an annual OV in a paper I picked up the other day. (We're at the resort now.) EOY is usually more than half the cost of an EY ownership. When I went to the owner update, they had limited inventory at both North and South, and people here on vacation are still buying at full retail prices.   I think Starwood would jump at $6,700 for "your" unit. (I DO hope I'm wrong, though, and that you get it! Good luck!)


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## mlpmd56 (Jan 17, 2013)

All I know is Starwood exercised ROFR on my 1 Bedroom EOY Ocean View at $4500 in OCTOBER.  I am the seller and they have still not sent me my money.  They have had staffing problems in that department, but really!  I have had multiple phone calls and emails with no resolution.  I did finally get an email confirming that I would not be responsible for 2013 maintenance fees.  They admit that they are the cause for 4-6 weeks of the delay.  It took them weeks to get me the initial paperwork, some of which was in the wrong names because of staffing issues.  I immediately returned the paperwork, where it did not get filed with the county for another month.    Starwood continues to unimpress with their poor treatment of their customers.  The main reason I sold was the outrageous maintenance fees, but I have to admit I have been treated much better by Marriott.  Marcy


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## pathways25 (Jan 17, 2013)

Actually, it's an EOY odd with usage beginning in 2015 (160953615555), floating week/floating unit.  The current owners have an EOY odd and an EOY even which were both sold on eBay.  (I happened to win the EOY even! )


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## LisaRex (Jan 17, 2013)

pathways25 said:


> Actually, it's an EOY odd with usage beginning in 2015 (160953615555), floating week/floating unit.  The current owners have an EOY odd and an EOY even which were both sold on eBay.  (I happened to win the EOY even! )



Thanks, pathways25.

OPer, if this is the only you purchased, note that what is listed on the deed as far as unit number goes is completely irrelevant.  You are NOT buying 6th floor.  You are buying a floating ownership, which means that you can be assigned any ocean view 2 bdrm lockoff on the south side.


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## Neil (Jan 17, 2013)

So if the unit number on the deed is 361618 that still means I could end up anywhere, any floor, with an ocean view?  So the 6th floor is not guaranteed?  Maybe I should just see if $6700 will pass ROFR.

As a buyer is there any potential to loose any fees in escrow if Starwood exercises it's ROFR?


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## Ken555 (Jan 17, 2013)

Kneiland said:


> So if the unit number on the deed is 361618 that still means I could end up anywhere, any floor, with an ocean view?  So the 6th floor is not guaranteed?



Correct. That's the way all floating units work. Each deed has a specific unit listed for legal purposes but have no impact on practical use of the week. You can get a first floor unit or a sixth floor unit, or any in between, and won't know until you arrive to checkin which you will get for any particular stay.


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## LisaRex (Jan 17, 2013)

Kneiland said:


> So if the unit number on the deed is 361618 that still means I could end up anywhere, any floor, with an ocean view?  So the 6th floor is not guaranteed?  Maybe I should just see if $6700 will pass ROFR.



It works the exact same way at WKORV-N, which is what you indicate you already own in your profile.  The only exception is if you buy a fixed week, fixed unit.


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## Neil (Jan 18, 2013)

LisaRex said:


> I'd let it go through and see how it goes.



Thank-you, I will take your advice.


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## Neil (Jan 18, 2013)

LisaRex said:


> It works the exact same way at WKORV-N, which is what you indicate you already own in your profile.



I just updated my profile. I prematurely listed WKORV-N in my profile a couple of months ago, when I purchased an OF unit at WKORV-N. However, the sale fell through when title problems popped up and the seller backed out.

Since then, I have been looking for a replacement unit to purchase. I have wanted to buy into WKORV for a long time. I have also sat through 3 timeshare presentations at WKORV over the past 8 years, but I never could bring myself to purchase from the developer. . . too expensive.

I'm positive that the timeshare salesmen have told me that unit location was important. I was told, "If you purchase 6th floor, you'll get 6th floor." or "You'll get your unit or something close to your unit." I guess I was led to believe that the unit # determined where you would stay, because they made a big deal of looking through their inventory to get your the best available unit. In my case, I wanted Ocean View. 

Here's what I now understand: There are 4 locations: 1. Ocean Front Center 2. Ocean Front Deluxe 3. Ocean View and 4. Island View. I'm a little disappointed that I could end up in an Ocean View unit on the first floor that really doesn't have an ocean view!

Thanks for all your great comments!


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## SMHarman (Jan 18, 2013)

This thread won't help calm your fears
http://69.16.236.4/~tugbbsc/forums/showthread.php?t=184684&highlight=ROFR


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## YYJMSP (Jan 18, 2013)

Kneiland said:


> I'm positive that the timeshare salesmen have told me that unit location was important. I was told, "If you purchase 6th floor, you'll get 6th floor." or "You'll get your unit or something close to your unit." I guess I was led to believe that the unit # determined where you would stay, because they made a big deal of looking through their inventory to get your the best available unit. In my case, I wanted Ocean View.



If you pay an extra 10% to the developer, you can fix the unit number or the week.  I'm not sure if one is required to get the other (i.e. you have to fix the week first for +10% before you can fix the unit number for another +10%).



Kneiland said:


> Here's what I now understand: There are 4 locations: 1. Ocean Front Center 2. Ocean Front Deluxe 3. Ocean View and 4. Island View. I'm a little disappointed that I could end up in an Ocean View unit on the first floor that really doesn't have an ocean view!



Actually 5 locations -- there's also an Island View Deluxe.

The views from each are subjective -- my experience has been that a couple of the high-floor IVD's have more ocean view than some low floor OV's.


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## pathways25 (Jan 18, 2013)

YYJMSP said:


> If you pay an extra 10% to the developer, you can fix the unit number or the week.  I'm not sure if one is required to get the other (i.e. you have to fix the week first for +10% before you can fix the unit number for another +10%).



Yes, you must fix the week (+10%) before you can fix the unit (another +10%).



YYJMSP said:


> Actually 5 locations -- there's also an Island View Deluxe.
> 
> The views from each are subjective -- my experience has been that a couple of the high-floor IVD's have more ocean view than some low floor OV's.



Actually, there are even more than that at WKORV (South):

Ocean Front Deluxe 2BR
Ocean View Deluxe 2BR
Island View Deluxe 2BR
Ocean Front Center 2BR
Ocean View 2BR
Island View 2BR
Ocean View 1BR (dedicated)


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## LisaRex (Jan 18, 2013)

I highly doubt that Starwood would allow a resale owner to fix their unit/week, so you have to add the 20% on top of the developer price.


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## LisaRex (Jan 18, 2013)

For WKORV or WKORV-N, you should know the following about the Vacation Ownership Interest (VOI) you are looking at buying: 1) Annual vs. EOY; 2) Type of ownership; 3) Season; 4) Size of unit; 5) View. 

This applies to WKORV and WKORV/N only:

1) Annual v EOY ownership:

There are three types:  annual, EOY Even, and EOY Odd.

2) Fixed vs Float  

"Fixed week/fixed unit" means that you are purchasing exclusive rights to a specific unit during a specific week (e.g. unit 8601/02 during week 27).  Fixed weeks and/or fixed units were sold at a premium over and above the regular purchase price, and Starwood limited the number of these that they sold.  

The vast majority of VOIs (Vacation Ownership Interest) were sold as "float" ownerships.  Float owners don't have the right to use a specific week or unit, but rather have the right to reserve any available week within your season, provided you book within the 8-12 month window.  

3) Season

All float VOIs were sold as "platinum plus" aka "high" or "red" season.  Platinum+ season at WKORV/N is basically any week of the year except the last 2 weeks of the year that encompass Christmas and New Year's. These weeks were sold separately, at a premium, and are all fixed week/fixed unit, to the best of my knowledge.  

4) Size

WKORV VOIs were sold as: 1 bdrm, 1 bdrm premium, 2 bdrm lockoff, and 2 bdrm premium.  ("Premium" aka "deluxe" are corner units and are about 25% larger that regular units.  The MFs on these units are also ~25% higher.)  

WKORV/N units were all sold as 2 bdrm lockoffs.

5) View 

Each deed is assigned a specific view.  

There are 4 views at WKORV:  Island view (IV), OV (Ocean View), OF (Ocean Front) and Ocean Front Center (OFC). 

There are 3 views at WKORVN - IV, OV, and OF. 

Your deeded view means that you WILL be assigned a villa in your view class, subject to availability, provided you call within the 8-12 month window.  If you call outside of that window, you lose your view. 

As you discovered, however, higher floors generally have better views than lower floors.  FYI, views are assigned via timestamp.  The person who calls at 12 months out will be assigned a higher floor closer to the ocean than the owner calling at 8 months out.   

Before you buy, familiarize yourself with the various views.  For instance, some units in building 4 were classified as OV.  As you can see from the map, Building 4 is set far back and overlooks a parking lot.  Some IV units on the south side face the highway or parking lot.  Some OF units on the north side are farther back than some OV units on the south side. 

If you aren't a planner, and able to call in at 12 months out, you will not be able to maximize your view. Also FYI, when you call, you are not given your unit number, so you won't know where you're placed until you arrive. 

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1266068&postcount=1

Hope this helps!


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## pathways25 (Jan 18, 2013)

LisaRex said:


> 4) Size
> 
> WKORV VOIs were sold as: 1 bdrm, 1 bdrm premium, 2 bdrm lockoff, and 2 bdrm premium.  ("Premium" aka "deluxe" are corner units and are about 25% larger that regular units.  The MFs on these units are also ~25% higher.)
> 
> ...



Just to clarify, at WKORV, there were 3 views and 3 unit types sold.  The views are Ocean Front, Ocean View and Island View.  The unit types sold were 2BR, 2BR deluxe and 1BR.  The deluxe units are the corner units on the ocean side of buildings 2 and 3 and all four corners of building 4.  Those units were only sold as 2BR and no deluxe 1BR units were sold.  The dedicated 1BR units that were sold are pretty much equivalent to the 1BR portion of the standard 2BR and occupy units 00/01/24/25 in buildings 2 and 3.  There were all Ocean View and there are no Ocean Front or Island View dedicated 1BR units.


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## larryallen (Jan 18, 2013)

That seems like a very good price. Good luck. If that goes through ROFR I think you did really well!


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 18, 2013)

LisaRex said:


> 4) Size
> 
> WKORV VOIs were sold as: 1 bdrm, 1 bdrm premium, 2 bdrm lockoff, and 2 bdrm premium.  ("Premium" aka "deluxe" are corner units and are about 25% larger that regular units.  The MFs on these units are also ~25% higher.)



At WKORV - the ratio between MFs and the villa size are not proportional.

The best MF/size are OFC villa (because the studio has a lanai, unlike the other non-OF premium villas), and the worst are the stand-alone 1Bd because there is a steep MF/size discount for the studio side for the 2Bd LOs.  The next worse are the 2Bd LO Dlx villas.  btw, the 1Bd stand-alone are slightly bigger that the 1Bd associated with the 2Bd LO because you gain the foyer area (~50sqft) with the 1Bd stand-alone.

Hope that makes sense - the villa sizes and their relation to the relative MFs are listed in the Owners' manual.

btw - IMO - only buy OF at WKORV...  and if you want a fantastic panoramic view and do not care about the associated MF premium - then buy OFD - otherwise buy OFC.

Here are the approx. $MF per sqft for 2012:
1Bd Prem	             = $1.74 ($1730 - 995 sqft)
2Bd LO Prem         = $1.39 ($2050 - 1475 sqft)
2Bd LO Prem (OF)	= $1.21 ($2050 - 1700 sqft)
2Bd LO Dlx	= $1.56 ($2825 - 1810 sqft)


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## Neil (Jan 18, 2013)

When reserving as a WKORV owner 12 months out, is it better to arrive on Fri, Sat, or Sun? In other words, do you have a better chance of getting a better view by arriving on a particular day? Also, does it make a difference if  you arrive early in the day, i.e. 1pm vs. later, i.e. 10pm?


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## gregb (Jan 18, 2013)

The units seem to be fairly evenly distributed between the three check-in days.  I don't know that asking for any one is better than another.  I suppose it depends on how many people ask for each day.

Greg


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## LisaRex (Jan 19, 2013)

Kneiland said:


> When reserving as a WKORV owner 12 months out, is it better to arrive on Fri, Sat, or Sun? In other words, do you have a better chance of getting a better view by arriving on a particular day? Also, does it make a difference if  you arrive early in the day, i.e. 1pm vs. later, i.e. 10pm?



I think that the vast majority of units change hands on Saturday.  Rooms are assigned the week or so before check-in, based on time stamp. So the best thing you can do to improve your view is to call in as early as possible once the reservation window opens.  You might be able to do some minor finagling (e.g. moving to 2nd floor instead of 1st) if you arrive right at check-in, but you shouldn't go with the expectation that you can move around at will.  

FWIW, I've been where you are before, and my best advice is to quit stressing about your room assignment.  Buy the best view you can afford, reserve as early as possible, then relax. If you get the worst view in your view class, you're still at an ocean front resort in Maui.


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## Syed (Jan 23, 2013)

Starwood recently exercised on a 2 Bed island villa annual for $12,500 at WKORVN
Waived a1 Bed ocean view annual for $12,000 at WKORV


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## larryallen (Jan 25, 2013)

Syed said:


> Starwood recently exercised on a 2 Bed island villa annual for $12,500 at WKORVN
> Waived a1 Bed ocean view annual for $12,000 at WKORV



Syed- Great info. Thank you.  For a 2 bedroom ocean view what's a reasonable guess at what amount will pass ROFR or not these days?  Is there a current hard line where they always exercise?


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## larryallen (Jan 25, 2013)

For example this 2 bedroom ocean view ended at $6,339. Any chance it passes ROFR? It seems super cheap.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370737329908&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:3160


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## PamMo (Jan 25, 2013)

Not a chance.


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## Fredm (Jan 26, 2013)

larryallen said:


> For example this 2 bedroom ocean view ended at $6,339. Any chance it passes ROFR? It seems super cheap.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370737329908&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:3160



Annual 2/2 OV have recently been exercised as high as $18,500. However, $17,500 seems to be the borderline that may pass in my experience. As always, nothing is cast in concrete.  

As Pam said, not a chance of an annual OV passing at $6,339 (if the ROFR submittal was not doctored).


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## pathways25 (Jan 26, 2013)

Fredm said:


> Annual 2/2 OV have recently been exercised as high as $18,500. However, $17,500 seems to be the borderline that may pass in my experience. As always, nothing is cast in concrete.
> 
> As Pam said, not a chance of an annual OV passing at $6,339 (if the ROFR submittal was not doctored).



Actually, it was a OV deluxe unit (in building 4).  Is Starwood taking those back aggressively as well?


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## larryallen (Jan 26, 2013)

Fredm said:


> Annual 2/2 OV have recently been exercised as high as $18,500. However, $17,500 seems to be the borderline that may pass in my experience. As always, nothing is cast in concrete.
> 
> As Pam said, not a chance of an annual OV passing at $6,339 (if the ROFR submittal was not doctored).



I guess then the question is why do the buyer and the seller bother going through the process!?  Seems like a waste of time in so many ways. Oh well....


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## Fredm (Jan 26, 2013)

larryallen said:


> I guess then the question is why do the buyer and the seller bother going through the process!?  Seems like a waste of time in so many ways. Oh well....



The seller is still sold. Starwood becomes the buyer. No doubt, the seller sold for less than they could have received if they had some patience, or were more aware of the marketplace. For all I know the owner may have paid CJ to take it off their hands. I have no idea how CJ acquired the timeshare.

OTOH, hope springs eternal with buyers. They figure they have nothing to lose by trying. Of course, most have no idea about what it will cost to actually own it. TUGers may know, but we are a small fraction of the timeshare population.


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## Fredm (Jan 27, 2013)

pathways25 said:


> Actually, it was a OV deluxe unit (in building 4).  Is Starwood taking those back aggressively as well?



I don't know how aggressive. I have not sold many that were not ocean front. 
The problem with 2/2 Deluxe are the fees.
They are slow to sell, unless it is an OFD. 

Starwood is being aggressive with OFD and OFC. 
Recent OFD was exercised at $31,000. Another passed at $33,000. So, 32k is the borderline these days.

Recent OFC passed at $31,500.


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## larryallen (Jan 27, 2013)

Interestingly the one I posted above sold for $6,300 and this one is at $15k with a day to go. They appear to be the same type unit, no?  The seller for the former had many more Ebay transactions. Strange!?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130836172838?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


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## PamMo (Jan 27, 2013)

Who really knows why eBay auctions go the way they do? The current auction is for a WKORVN _oceanfront _2BR villa. The bidding starts at $15,995, and there are zero bids so far. That's not too surprising as the seller has limited feedback, all his auctions are private, and the buyer will have to use the seller's undisclosed closing agent.


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## Fredm (Jan 27, 2013)

larryallen said:


> Interestingly the one I posted above sold for $6,300 and this one is at $15k with a day to go. They appear to be the same type unit, no?  The seller for the former had many more Ebay transactions. Strange!?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/130836172838?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649



That auction is for an Ocean Front at North.

Thus far, no bids.


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## larryallen (Jan 27, 2013)

Fredm said:


> That auction is for an Ocean Front at North.
> 
> Thus far, no bids.




Geez, what a rookie.   Thanks to you both for indicating the difference. Not sure how I missed it.  Or that it had no bids. I consider myself Ebay advanced. I guess not today.   Thanks.


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## Ken555 (Jan 27, 2013)

Fredm said:


> That auction is for an Ocean Front at North.
> 
> Thus far, no bids.



Yeah, those "ocean front" units at North must not be as valuable because they don't include the Heavenly bed as indicated in the other thread. Oh, and the fact that they're not really ocean front might have something to do with it, too.


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## larryallen (Jan 28, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> Yeah, those "ocean front" units at North must not be as valuable because they don't include the Heavenly bed as indicated in the other thread. Oh, and the fact that they're not really ocean front might have something to do with it, too.



I can't recall from my visit there. Are there not many true ocean "front" units on the north side?  What's the premium in sale price for a front v. a view on the north?


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## serendip7 (Jan 28, 2013)

*How to wiggle around ROFR*

One trick to try and get around the ROFR is to roll the maintenance in with the sale price.  For instance, if the seller hasn't paid his maintenance this year yet and wants to get rid of the TS before he has to pay then just roll the maintenance into the sale price and let the buyer use the property this year.  If the seller has already made his payment this year and hasn't used the property yet then ask him to raise the cost of the property by the maintenance cost and then let you stay at the place this year for free.

If you can do that little trick then you might be able to squeeze your way past ROFR.


Robert


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## LisaRex (Jan 28, 2013)

larryallen said:


> I can't recall from my visit there. Are there not many true ocean "front" units on the north side?  What's the premium in sale price for a front v. a view on the north?



A picture is worth a thousand words. The OF villas on the south side are only those perpendicular to the ocean, and if you look at the floor plan, you can see that there are only a dozen of them.  (Bldgs 2 and 3, villas 28 thru 31).  

The OF villas on the north side are angled, so that you're not getting the 180 degree view.  And the OF designations go back farther, beyond what I'd call true OF.  (Building 8 is designated all OF, and Building 5 villas 01 thru 16 are coded OF.)

To be fair, I've never been unhappy with my assignment (I got building 5, 6th floor, villa 3/4 the first time I booked) but I think Starwood played fast and loose on their OF designation on the north side.    

I think OFC (south side only) sells for about a $5k premium, but it appears to me that pricing between the two sides have about leveled out.  

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1266068&postcount=1


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## PamMo (Jan 28, 2013)

LisaRex said:


> ...I got building 5, 6th floor, villa 3/4 the first time I booked...



First time we booked our oceanfront week, we got Bldg 5, 3rd floor, villa 15/16 - which definitely did NOT feel like oceanfront! I'd agree that they played fast and loose with the oceanfront designation for North. The oceanfront villas at South are definitely worth a premium.


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## LisaRex (Jan 28, 2013)

PamMo said:


> First time we booked our oceanfront week, we got Bldg 5, 3rd floor, villa 15/16 - which definitely did NOT feel like oceanfront! I'd agree that they played fast and loose with the oceanfront designation for North. The oceanfront villas at South are definitely worth a premium.



Just curious, what have your assignments been since?  We've only stayed there twice since we bought (due to airfare and my stubborn refusal to give Maui my business after they screwed TS owners on the property taxes).  The second time we went, we were assigned something like 5301/02, which was also nice but not as nice as the south side OF.


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## psfcfa (Jan 28, 2013)

mlpmd56 said:


> All I know is Starwood exercised ROFR on my 1 Bedroom EOY Ocean View at $4500 in OCTOBER.  I am the seller and they have still not sent me my money.  They have had staffing problems in that department, but really!  I have had multiple phone calls and emails with no resolution.  I did finally get an email confirming that I would not be responsible for 2013 maintenance fees.  They admit that they are the cause for 4-6 weeks of the delay.  It took them weeks to get me the initial paperwork, some of which was in the wrong names because of staffing issues.  I immediately returned the paperwork, where it did not get filed with the county for another month.    Starwood continues to unimpress with their poor treatment of their customers.  The main reason I sold was the outrageous maintenance fees, but I have to admit I have been treated much better by Marriott.  Marcy



Sorry to hear this as I just did contract for an EOY 1 br at $4500 too.  Maybe they no longer want them...


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## Scott&Laura (Jan 31, 2013)

Is it possible for Sellers and Buyers to use a poison pill approach to selling

Such as that the transaction has to close in x days or additional are imposed of $10,000

In that way Starwood cannot exersize ROFR and sit on it.

Scott


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 31, 2013)

Scott&Laura said:


> Is it possible for Sellers and Buyers to use a poison pill approach to selling
> 
> Such as that the transaction has to close in x days or additional are imposed of $10,000
> 
> ...



Nope - the process per CCRs allows SVO a time-window to decide to act on a ROFR.


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## luv_maui (Jan 31, 2013)

DavidnRobin said:


> Nope - the process per CCRs allows SVO a time-window to decide to act on a ROFR.



But couldn't you include in the offer something that Starwood doesn't have?  For example, couldn't you offer say $10,000 dollars and an autographed baseball from some local college player?


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## DavidnRobin (Feb 1, 2013)

luv_maui said:


> But couldn't you include in the offer something that Starwood doesn't have?  For example, couldn't you offer say $10,000 dollars and an autographed baseball from some local college player?



This has been discussed - I'll leave it up to Salty to respond.
It had something to do with fraud.


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## luv_maui (Feb 1, 2013)

DavidnRobin said:


> This has been discussed - I'll leave it up to Salty to respond.
> It had something to do with fraud.



Ok, but I'm not talking about fraud.  I'm just taking about a legitimate offer which includes something that may not be convenient for someone else to offer.  We went to an nba game and got a player (not some star) to autograph some t-shirt no longer for sale.  Could have some potential value down the road, but just a memory of the game for us.  If included in an offer, Starwood couldn't conveniently match the exact offer if at all.

I'm not planning on an offer at this time nor anytime in the near future .  well......at least not till the kids are done with school.  Purely a theoretical thought on my thought.


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## DavidnRobin (Feb 1, 2013)

luv_maui said:


> Ok, but I'm not talking about fraud.  I'm just taking about a legitimate offer which includes something that may not be convenient for someone else to offer.  We went to an nba game and got a player (not some star) to autograph some t-shirt no longer for sale.  Could have some potential value down the road, but just a memory of the game for us.  If included in an offer, Starwood couldn't conveniently match the exact offer if at all.
> 
> I'm not planning on an offer at this time nor anytime in the near future .  well......at least not till the kids are done with school.  Purely a theoretical thought on my thought.



I has been previously discussed - I really wasn't paying attention.  It is not really of interest - I was just responding to the ROFR.  The have right of 1st refusal - regardless.


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## Fredm (Feb 3, 2013)

luv_maui said:


> Ok, but I'm not talking about fraud.  I'm just taking about a *legitimate offer *which includes something that may not be convenient for someone else to offer.  We went to an nba game and got a player (not some star) to autograph some t-shirt no longer for sale.  Could have some potential value down the road, but just a memory of the game for us.  If included in an offer, Starwood couldn't conveniently match the exact offer if at all.
> 
> I'm not planning on an offer at this time nor anytime in the near future .  well......at least not till the kids are done with school.  *Purely a theoretical thought *on my thought.



The answer is no. 
Other real estate sale contracts can include all kinds of sale terms. The car or golf cart in the garage, art work on the wall, etc.  But, they are not subject to a preemption right. The preemption right is for a tightly defined timeshare interval; not a timeshare interval and a collection of baseball cards or bottle caps. 
Terms/items that *are* intrinsic to the sale/purchase include payment of fees, who gets the use, payment of closing costs, etc.
Including extranious terms not related to the timeshare can rightfully be viewed as a blatant and frivelous attempt to thwart the developer's preemention right.
The developer will ignore them. In so doing, the transaction goes into limbo until the artifically created mess is cleared up. 

There are legitimate isolated cases of a timeshare transaction that make it difficult for the developer to consider a ROFR.     
Example: the parties agree to swap their deeds at different resorts. One party pays the other a cash kicker to equalize the value of the trade. The objective is the deed trade. Both deeds and the cash are put in escrow. The deed swap will actually record.  The developer will very likely move on to the next transaction overflowing their in-box, even though the cash portion of the transaction may be below the ROFR ceiling. 

Fraud aside, every scheme I have ever heard to circumvent an ROFR was concocted by a buyer. Not the seller. 
Why? Because the buyer wants to buy the timeshare for less than it may otherwise cost them to actually own it. No additional benefit accrues to the seller. In the process they want the seller to accept terms that potentially harm the seller. At the very least the sale will be stalled. Why would a seller accept such terms? 
In the real world the seller just wants to get it sold and collect their money. Not complicate the matter.

Buyers should simply offer what they are willing to pay in cash money, use, and closing terms. If the seller agrees the rest takes care of itself. The seller is sold. The buyer may, or may not, get to own it.  If the ROFR is exercised, the buyer can then move on with another offer, or not. Pretty simple.

There are legitimate ways to counter a ROFR. A *serious* buyer may, or may not, have to pay more to own it. But, it may also benefit the seller. That is not only fair, it will result in achieving the buyer's objective of owning the timeshare at the lowest possible price attainable at the time. A knowledgeable broker can oftentimes help in this regard.


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## mlpmd56 (Feb 4, 2013)

*Finally!*

Hello again Tuggers,
Finally, Saturday Feb 2nd, I got a check from Starwood.  I checked my old emails, and I sold this to a private party in SEPTEMBER.  Starwood exercised ROFR the first week of October, and then sat on my paperwork for MONTHS.  They really do NOT know how to treat their customers.  I loved WKORV, beautiful resort, but the escalating maintenance fees were just too much.  Luckily I bought this unit on ebay, and actually am only losing a few hundred dollars.  I am also trying to sell my Marriott as my husband just cannot travel very much, and I think it is interesting that Marriott actually has a department for buying back timeshares (they declined mine) or will broker it for you.  Marriott has been MUCH nicer to me overall than Starwood.  Anyway thought you all might be interested in how long Starwood drags their feet when THEY owe the customer money!
Marcy


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## Neil (Feb 10, 2013)

I didn't get the WKORV EOY 2 Bedroom Oceanview unit I won on eBay for $6,800. I was just notified that Westin is exercising its ROFR!


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## LisaRex (Feb 11, 2013)

That's a bummer, but not really a great surprise.  It's a no brainer to intervene when they can sell it to a new owner for tens of thousands of dollars.


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## larryallen (Apr 22, 2013)

I was hoping the annual two bedroom ocean view deluxe may sneak through for $6,400, that I got on EBay, but Westin ROFR'd me.   Back to the old drawing board!


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## SMHarman (Apr 22, 2013)

larryallen said:


> I was hoping the annual two bedroom ocean view deluxe may sneak through for $6,400, that I got on EBay, but Westin ROFR'd me.   Back to the old drawing board!


Why would someone put that on EBay?  That was highly unlikely to pass.  Starwood will offer that back to you for $100k!


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## larryallen (Apr 24, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> Why would someone put that on EBay?  That was highly unlikely to pass.  Starwood will offer that back to you for $100k!



I don't know but shows you how much they are really "worth" in my opinion. When multiple bidders bid, on an item, from a reputable seller, and that's all it gets to... that's the value. Timeshares are extremely interesting.


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## SMHarman (Apr 24, 2013)

larryallen said:


> I don't know but shows you how much they are really "worth" in my opinion. When multiple bidders bid, on an item, from a reputable seller, and that's all it gets to... that's the value. Timeshares are extremely interesting.


But clearly there is another silent bidder / sniper that can come in after the deal is done.  If you 'really' want one of those units resale then you need to second guess the ROFR process and bid a price that will pass ROFR as that is the floor price because Starwood consider it worth more.


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## Fredm (Apr 24, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> But clearly there is another silent bidder / sniper that can come in after the deal is done.  If you 'really' want one of those units resale then you need to second guess the ROFR process and bid a price that will pass ROFR as that is the floor price because Starwood consider it worth more.



Exactly. 

Currently Starwood considers a price below ~25% of their retail to be the floor, best I can tell.  Based on the recent past, it looks like it is going to 30%.
So, a serious buyer will have to settle for a 70-75% discount from retail to actually own it. Not bad when you think about it . Just have to come to terms with the reality of the matter.


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## DeniseM (Apr 24, 2013)

If someone "gifts" a Starwood TS to you, can Starwood exercise ROFR?


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## SMHarman (Apr 24, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> If someone "gifts" a Starwood TS to you, can Starwood exercise ROFR?


It would be problematic if it were a linked transaction.  These shenanegans seem to have been regularly discussed including the what if I added a signed baseball...  Starwood can't match the transaction.

I imagine Starwood have a cap on their desired inventory and I am surprised that some smart TS secondary market sales person has not set up a pile of strawman buyer transactions at / near ROFR price where people really want to get a WKORV(/N) off their hands.  It would increase their commission and the buyers return.

Based on what FredM just said, by putting that on ebay that seller probably just left about $15k on the table.  If the buyer and I had come to me and I had put an offer in for $22k, SVO would likely ROFR and the seller would have an extra 14k in their pocket!  If starwood did not ROFR I back out of the deal for some reason


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## Fredm (Apr 25, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> If someone "gifts" a Starwood TS to you, can Starwood exercise ROFR?



A "gift" or inheretence from an immediate family member is OK. 
Beyond that, I don't know. Never encountered one.

A charitable donation to a legitimate charity is another twist. Again, I don't know. Would Starwood value the donation as the tax benefit to the giver? Or, let the donation stand?

Starwood can do whatever they want. It's their judgement call.
Keep in mind that we are talking about the Hawaii resorts and WMH.
I can see a WMH Silver eoy owner giving it away. Starwood would probably  not exercise it anyway. But, the real test would be a Hawaii or WMH Platinum.

As to " gifting", if I was the owner I would not want to risk losing the timeshare, and get nothing, if the "real" deal was payment outside the terms of transfer.  I understand the buyer wanting to do this, but not the seller.


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## tillamookrn (Apr 25, 2013)

*WMH pending*

I am in the closing process on two EOY 2 bedroom lock-off weeks at WMH. One is a Silver week, and the other is a Gold week. I'll post the results once I hear back on the ROFR. I picked up both off EBay for next to nothing...
Fingers crossed they go through!


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## DeniseM (Apr 25, 2013)

What if I take over payments on someone's timeshare - but there is no cash exchanged?


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## SMHarman (Apr 25, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> What if I take over payments on someone's timeshare - but there is no cash exchanged?


You could even draft some operating agreement for such a transaction.
You would have 'control' but not 'ownership'.


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## Fredm (Apr 25, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> What if I take over payments on someone's timeshare - but there is no cash exchanged?



That is a "sale subject to existing financing".
The lender (Starwood) would likely approve of the transfer, unless the amount owed was so low that Starwood would exercise the sale and pay off the mortgage.


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## DeniseM (Apr 25, 2013)

How about $18,000 due?


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## Fredm (Apr 25, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> How about $18,000 due?



18k due on what?

If a KOR ocean front, Starwood would likely exercise and pay the 18k.

It all comes down to what it will cost Starwood to assume ownership.
Since there is no pre-payment penalty on the loan, the outstanding loan balance will likely be viewed as the ROFR review price.


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## DeniseM (Apr 25, 2013)

Yes - hypothetically, a WKORVN ocean front unit.


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## PamMo (Apr 25, 2013)

At a cost of $18K to assume ownership of a WKORVN oceanfront, I suspect Starwood would exercise ROFR, since they are excercising ROFR on sales higher than that. It would be interesting to find out, though.


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