# Anyone else thinking about joining HCC before the 30th?



## DosMasCervesos (Nov 19, 2007)

I'm contemplating joining HCC before their rate hike in a week or so. My vacation schedule is booked pretty solid for the next year, so now isn't the ideal time. But the price hike is enough that I'm seriously considering joining now. I'd hate to be kicking myself in 12 months if I didn't do it. I also hate it when someone's marketing plan (buy now before it is too late) actually works on me.  I wish there was more competition in the entry-level DC market, but it looks like HCC is it. 

Anyone else recently join or thinking about it because of the price hike?

Regards,
Matt


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 19, 2007)

I have been very happy with HCC and think it is a great deal with the current prices.

Regarding the marketing plan, you have missed 3 or 4 price hikes over the past 2 years adn if you wait, the prices will be even higher in a year or two. Thus, it is not a gimmick as much as it is a schedule of regular price hikes as they add members.

One tip: You can ask HCC to freeze your membership for 6-12 months as you have probably booked mot of 2008 travel already. You will still have to pay the membership fee, but freeze the dues and useage until you are ready to travel.

For example, if the soonest you can travel is July 1, 2007, then join now (and pay the membership fee) and have your dues due when you are ready to travel. I beleive you can book a trip once you pay your membership fee.

Regarding competition, PE and DHH are the only real competitors in terms of memberhsip fees.


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## GOLFNBEACH (Nov 20, 2007)

DosMasCervesos said:


> Anyone else recently join or thinking about it because of the price hike?
> 
> Regards,
> Matt



I gave it serious consideration but I think I'm gonna pass.  I like the concept and pricing is attractice.  The main issue I have is time to travel.  We use our HGVC timeshare for one or two weeks, and we go to Europe for a summer holiday.  

I might kick myself for not joining, however it just doens't seem right for us at this time.


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 20, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> I might kick myself for not joining, however it just doens't seem right for us at this time.



You can always join at the Trial level (as this is the only plan that offers  a 100% return of your membership fee) and ask HCC to add a 3-year option for various upgrade prices into your contract if you decide to upgrade later.

That way you can play both sides of the fence without committing too much cash. If you don't like the club, you can resign and get your money back. If you like it (99% that you will) then you can upgrade your membership at today's prices as you would have locked in your option to upgrade.


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## tombo (Nov 20, 2007)

Jeez Bill, do you get commission off of everyone who joins? Your first response is it is a great deal and I am so glad I joined, then the poster says no. You then come back and say please join at the trial level while giving supposed advantages of doing so. You are a salesman for DC's here on TUG. I feel like I need a free meal and some cash for attending your sales presentation. Your statement: "If you like it (99% that you will) " is based on no facts. You need to pay TUG  for advertising because your posts are nothing but HCC marketing propaganda.

I say buy timeshares resale after researching your purchase to make sure it is a good deal for you. I never beg people to buy anything as I have no incentive to do so. I do warn them against blowing their money on a pyramid scheme called DC's. I warn them against giving their money blindly to a DC that they will never own and that they will  have no votes or ownership in. I do warn against trusting the owners of DC's blindly. I have no incentive to do so. I do it only to help warn people before they blow their hard earned money.


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## NeilGoBlue (Nov 20, 2007)

tombo said:


> Jeez Bill, do you get commission off of everyone who joins? Your first response is it is a great deal and I am so glad I joined, then the poster says no. You then come back and say please join at the trial level while giving supposed advantages of doing so. You are a salesman for DC's here on TUG. I feel like I need a free meal and some cash for attending your sales presentation. You need to pay TUG  for advertising because your posts are nothing but HCC marketing propaganda.
> 
> I say buy timeshares resale after researching your purchase to make sure it is a good deal for you. I never beg people to buy anything as I have no incentive to do so. I do warn them against blowing their money on a pyramid scheme called DC's. I warn them against giving their money blindly to a DC that they will never own and that they will  have no votes or ownership in. I do warn against trusting the owners of DC's blindly. I have no incentive to do so. I do it only to help warn people before they blow their hard earned money.




He's a happy member... what else would you expect him to say?  I tell all the people in my life about the business/services that I'm impressed with...

Also, not all DC's fit your criteria for a house of cards.  Both Bellehaven's and Crescendo offer equity protection.  Please don't lump these two DC's into your all encompassing statements.


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## Bourne (Nov 20, 2007)

The comment was made in good faith. 

I can understand the comment Golfnbeach made. I actually lost some sleep over the decision myself last year. It was not about the money but about the amount and type of usage. And the inability to 'rent out' unused days. 

To each his own.

HCC members join for better quality at high end timeshare prices. 
UR/PE members join for more properties and less perceived risk. 
Bellhavens members join for better quality than HCC/PE and equity. 
ER members just don't care. Have money. Will splurge.


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## tombo (Nov 20, 2007)

Not only are you prevented from renting your DC weeks, you have to pay really big bucks to have the right to let family stay there without you. The cheapest timeshare or points program allows you to rent or let family  or friends stay in your week you have paid for.

Bellhaven and crescendo might have equity protection, but this thread  is about HCC which doesn't have equity protection, or any protection to speak of.


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## Bourne (Nov 20, 2007)

To each his own.


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## travelguy (Nov 21, 2007)

tombo said:


> Jeez Bill, do you get commission off of everyone who joins? Your first response is it is a great deal and I am so glad I joined, then the poster says no. You then come back and say please join at the trial level while giving supposed advantages of doing so. You are a salesman for DC's here on TUG. I feel like I need a free meal and some cash for attending your sales presentation. Your statement: "If you like it (99% that you will) " is based on no facts. You need to pay TUG  for advertising because your posts are nothing but HCC marketing propaganda.
> 
> I say buy timeshares resale after researching your purchase to make sure it is a good deal for you. I never beg people to buy anything as I have no incentive to do so. I do warn them against blowing their money on a pyramid scheme called DC's. I warn them against giving their money blindly to a DC that they will never own and that they will  have no votes or ownership in. I do warn against trusting the owners of DC's blindly. I have no incentive to do so. I do it only to help warn people before they blow their hard earned money.



You're making an unjustified personal attack on a moderator of this forum!!  I'm amazed that Bill or one of the other moderators has not thrown you off the board.  

Personally, I am tired with your negative posts which usually include so much misinformation that it's not worth my time to respond.


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 21, 2007)

travelguy said:


> You're making an unjustified personal attack on a moderator of this forum!!  I'm amazed that Bill or one of the other moderators has not thrown you off the board.
> 
> Personally, I am tired with your negative posts which usually include so much misinformation that it's not worth my time to respond.



I think we need to identify this thread as getting infected by a "*TB Virus*" and simply consider it like spam. TUG wants me to give tombo a little latitude in my consideration of deleting his (or hers?) posts, thus I will let he/she put his/her foot in his/her mouth and let other TUGers call him/her out.

Let's review a few FACTS from my over 2,400 posts on TUG vs Tombos 150 posts:

1. I own over 1,000 DVC points and have posted hundreds of threads on why people should join DVC, in fact another TUG moderator has posted that I am clearly a DVC cheerleader. So far nobody has risen to my challenge of "Show me one timeshare (besides DVC) that you can buy "from the developer" and can expect to sell it for the same price or more after 3-5 years of ownership. I have bought ALL my DVC contracts (7 ) directly from Disney and have made several thousands $ in profit from selling some points and renting others. I also visit Disney a lot and use most of the points myself.

2. I have made dozens of posts on my LOVE of my Westgate Park City timeshare and people refer to Westgate as Wastegate and this is probably the #1 most hated timeshare on TUG. Yet, I am extremely please at my purchase (resale this time). I don't try to defend Westgate, only the Park City location (it is awesome).

3. I have posted dozens of threads about my love of my MMC Marriott purchase and think this is the best Marriott resale on the market ($8-10k). This opinion is sharred by many TUGers and nobody gives me grief for this opinion.

4. I own 3 condo-hotels in Whistler and have been unimpressed with the ROI of my investment. I have posted dozens of threads warning people about buying a condo-hotel. I have been accused of being a condo-hotel hater, but nobody (besides one possible Maui condo-hotel owner) can show me that they actually make money fro a condo-hotel investment. They all appear to be losers.

4. I joined HCC last year and came up with the idea for a separate DC, condo-hotel, fractional forum on TUG (which I am the moderator). I have volunteered hundreds of hours for free to share in some of my knowledge about DCs and learn from others. Quite simply I think HCC is the best DC bargain out there and there are about 15 HCC members that are on TUG.

5. If I had to choose only one of the above properties to keep it would be HCC as this offers me the most impressive properties and the best customer experience.

6. I have posted about 3 price increases at HCC over the past year and one more is coming in December. If you are SMART, you will take advantage of this offer. 

7. If you read my first two posts in this tread, I think I am offering great advice for a TUG member. I actually came up with the idea of post #4 after reading post #3. I am not 100% sure that HCC will agree to this as I am NOT a HCC owner, investor, or board member.

8. I am just a happy HCC owner, just like I am a happy DVC owner, happy Westgate (park city) owner, and happy Marriott (MMC) owner. I am now (finally) a happy condo-hotel owner (only because the condo is in Canada the the $CAD has increased about 40% vs the USD), thus I am finally in the profit zone.

I really wish we could stop the *TB Virus* from infecting the destination club threads and there is an option in your CP to ignore posts from a single poster, but as a moderator, I want to read all the good and bad posters.


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## jasfan (Nov 21, 2007)

*HCC purchase before November 30*

In response to the original post, I am seriously consdering HCC before the increase.  I have been reviewing many posts, articles, the product, the plan, etc.  I am 80% or more probable in joining.

Contrary to other opinions, I appreciate Bill's opinion, and Tombo's as well.  The reality is, you consider the source.  I have tracked Bill's postings throughout this site, and find him to be credible, knowledgable, and based on the properties he owns and the perspective he has, has probably influenced my decision a bit.  And I have no knowledge of who he is, have never talked with him, and have no affiliation with him.  I may attempt to contact him before my final decision, yet am clear on his opinion and rationale.

Simply put, there are others that post that provide input that is great entertainment bordering drama/trauma to baseline ignorance or limited thinking/intelligence.  They are interesting as well.

In both cases - with Bill and others - I simply practice what I learned a long time ago in business.  TRUST AND VERIFY - KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.  I would not be very wise to believe Bill's postings without verification.  I have spent countless hours verifying through other sources, research, my own financial analysis, etc.  In my opinion (another unknown poster that needs to be trusted and VERIFIED), Bill's on the mark with his postings.  With that and my other findings, I will most likely act before November 30.

So, to the original post, I find this to be a different product than TSs, althought there are similarities.  I will continue to TS, and then will use the HCC membership as well.  For me, TSs often include properties that have many people/families, etc.  They tend to be in high tourist destinations.

Although HCC has properties located in high tourist destinations, the properties and locations seem just a little more private.  A little more like a home.  And with a little more personality.  And there is more location variety with larger units - a nice added feature.  And I like the idea of a property without resident salespeople constantly touring people.  I like the subtle, low-key approach.

I travel to NYC often, and stay at a hotel across the street from the HCC property - I watched the HCC property being built.  My NYC travel alone is part of the justification.


So, HCC may pyramid me out of my money, raise my annual dues so I can no longer eat when I am at one of their properties, begin buying properties in destitute areas of undesirable parts of the world, and REFUSE my resignation from the club because they have to wait for new members, thus hold me hostage to traveling or wasting my days.  Dirty b*#^$*s!!!

And Marriott may no longer keep the properties I own in the Marriott system, killing the value completely, as the MFs become more expensive than those at my primary residence, as they continue to overbuild and oversell, destroying the limited resale value as well as the developers ability to sell units/weeks at all, creating a corporate garage sale at my home resort selling the appliances to raise cash to pay for the utilities.  Or maybe they will simply sell the TS operation to an amateur organization like HCC - could you imagine?  Dirty b*#^$*s!!!

To the original poster - it looks good to me.  I wish I hit it earlier.  I have to use HCC before my TSs because the window of time to use is smaller, and I know it.  I will continue to monitor membership and the business direction of HCC and the TS industry.  I will have some great vacations, and some less then.

I say go for it, as you can always exercise the 80% rule if they haven't taken the money and moved to an island off of the coast of South America.  We all have lost this kind of money in other areas of our lives...


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 21, 2007)

jasfan said:


> In response to the original post, I am seriously consdering HCC before the increase.  I have been reviewing many posts, articles, the product, the plan, etc.  I am 80% or more probable in joining.
> 
> Contrary to other opinions, I appreciate Bill's opinion, and Tombo's as well.  The reality is, you consider the source.  I have tracked Bill's postings throughout this site, and find him to be credible, knowledgable, and based on the properties he owns and the perspective he has, has probably influenced my decision a bit.  And I have no knowledge of who he is, have never talked with him, and have no affiliation with him.  I may attempt to contact him before my final decision, yet am clear on his opinion and rationale.
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting a note that you appreciate some of my analysis.

DCs are different than TS in one interesting aspect - The more members that join a DC, the more properties the DC has to buy to maintain the house:member ratio (usually 7:1 or so). This is unlike a timeshare where the more members that buy each 1/52 of the entire unit, the more competition there is for you to book the unit you want. Thus, buying a timeshare when it is new and not 100% sold out will allow a member to easily book a hot week, once it is sold out, getting weeks is MUCH harder. A DC always maintains the same ratio and HCC rotates the holidays so there is never overdemand for one particular week.

I am NOT saying HCC is perfect, I just like it WAY better than any timeshare and the cost is MUCH lower than any other DC.

Also, the last paragraph of your quote is slightly incorrect in that - once you join, your annual dues is LOCKED into a CPI +2% increase (max) per year. Compare this to my Marriott that has increased about 15% or more the past two years . Also, HCC is starting to buy in areas that is voted upon by its members. Thus, each member has a say in where the next property will be bought.

You can PM me or call me if you want to discuss HCC off-line.


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 21, 2007)

tombo said:


> Jeez Bill, do you get commission off of everyone who joins? Your first response is it is a great deal and I am so glad I joined, then the poster says no. You then come back and say please join at the trial level while giving supposed advantages of doing so. You are a salesman for DC's here on TUG. I feel like I need a free meal and some cash for attending your sales presentation. Your statement: "If you like it (99% that you will) " is based on no facts. You need to pay TUG  for advertising because your posts are nothing but HCC marketing propaganda.



I have NEVER received any financial commissions (cash) from HCC. 

In fairness, they did donate a free week to Turks and Caicos for a non-profit organization I am a member of for an auction event that sold for over $3,000.

HCC has also comped me a free (one night) at the Orlando property when I was at a trade show by myself and did not want to stay at a hotel. I booked the property 3 days before I went, thus it would have been empty anyway.

Regarding GolfnBeach - Obviously this person is on the fence about joining HCC and has some reservations. I offered an "idea" that may make it worthwhile for them to join. HCC offers trial members a 100% money back  plan. I was the person that "invented" this membership category for HCC as a marketing tool (I did this for free after Heath called me to ask if I had any ideas on how to grow membership). I was surprised they made it a permanent membership as I was hoping it would only be offered seasonally.

* Tombo Challenge *-> Show me one single timeshare that offers 100% money back after 1 year of membership (like HCC does) if you are not happy with your purchase! By the way, I never said "please join HCC" and I even offered readers to also check out PE and DHH. If you want to falsely accuse me of spreading HCC propaganda, then please also accuse me of spreading propaganda about DVC, Marriott, Westgate, condo-hotels, and warning people about SouthWest and Spirit airlines.

Correction -> The DC satisfaction rate is probably closer to 95% (not 99% as I quoted) according to Helium Report and SherpaReport. Either way, it is a quantum leap  improvement over timeshare satisfaction rates. I have been a moderator of this forum for about 1 year now and I have NOT see one legimate complaint about any DC from a current member.


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## jcjl1 (Nov 21, 2007)

*Why All DC Members Want More Members*

It is really a simple concept, not some sales hype.  The more members a dc has  equals the more properties a club can purchase.  Tombo, keep your personal attacks to yourself, Bill has always been open, honest and highly informative.

That being said, the pricing, quality and flexibility of HCC is extremely attractive to the higher-end timeshare owner.  Every person has a choice, due your due diligence, compare options and make your choice.  For me, DC membership is an extremely compelling option!


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## pwrshift (Nov 21, 2007)

At least twice Bill has tried to convince me that buying a DC is probably *not* the best choice for me as an empty nester, because for most trips I need only 1 bedroom and often stay 2-5 weeks in one location. 

And he knows that I'm itching to spend some 'good' Canadian dollars before they fall back to 65 cents. 

Even so, I'm still considering HCC right now and will probably go ahead because I think it's the best DC deal out there for me ... mainly because of the the 100% money back offer, I've got the money to risk and want to dabble in the market.

I have found the people on this forum a little defensive about DC criticism, but it's fun to poke them a little (but not with insults) and stir them up. But they all surely seem like happy campers, which is a positive sign IMO.

I'm a very happy camper with Marriott Rewards, but a lot of Tuggers are not. So when someone jumps all over the MR points program, I try to illustrate how I use them to give some 'balance' to the debate and perhaps offer another way to look at that benefit. 

Bill gave me both sides of the DC story and never promoted HCC over any other DC, but it was the balance I needed to make a better decision. Good solid advice that I appreciated. It bugs me to see anyone suggest he has a motive behind his thoughts and I feel that is totally unfair.

Brian


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 21, 2007)

pwrshift said:


> Bill gave me both sides of the DC story and never promoted HCC over any other DC, but it was the balance I needed to make a better decision. Good solid advice that I appreciated. It bugs me to see anyone suggest he has a motive behind his thoughts and I feel that is totally unfair.
> 
> Brian



Thanks Brian.......I am looking forward to meeting you at Hooters the next time you are in Fort Lauderdale.

Cheers!


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## tombo (Nov 21, 2007)

I didn't attack anyone in any way. Please feel free to show me where I did so. I simply asked Bill a question and he finally responded. I do  however feel that a moderator calling me or my posts a "tombo virus" and other quotes used against me in the past  (troll) do border on personal attacks on me. I see no one complaining about abusive terms used by Bill about me.

When I make statements here I am simply pointing out major potential financial problems with DC's when the discussion turns to convincing new people to buy a DC. If the people like the pro's espoused here better than my cons, then they can join as informed buyers. To buy without having the chance to hear both pro's and con's of DC's would be a disservice to TUG memebers. As jasfan said he likes to hear both sides to make a more informed decision.


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## tombo (Nov 21, 2007)

Bill you said:

"I have been a moderator of this forum for about 1 year now and I have NOT see one legimate complaint about any DC from a current member."


This is a response to you from RLG on another thread after you made the statement that Tanner members weren't hurt by the bankruptcy:

"You've made this inaccurate claim before. I only wish it were true, since I was a Private Retreats/Abercrombie & Kent/Tanner & Haley member.

Let me assure you that we are not better off than before the bankruptcy.

Previously Tanner members had a contractual right to get back their $250,000/$500,000/$1,000,000 deposit subject to X in 1 out. Now they don't. If they don't want to belong to the club anymore, they get zero. That's the same percentage loss as the Enron investors - 100%."



I believe this is an unhappy Tanner (DC) member who has numerous times informed you of the financial loss he and fellow Tanner and Haley members  have suffered.  This should qualify as a complaint. From what I have seen nothing is in place to prevent it from happening to current DC owners. This will of course be turned around into an attack on my part by people on this site. It is simply an example of a complaint, addressed to you by an owner in the past. It is also a concern anyone considering investing in a DC should consider. To say it can't happen to my DC would be putting ones head in the sand.


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## NeilGoBlue (Nov 21, 2007)

tombo said:


> I believe this is an unhappy Tanner (DC) member who has numerous times informed you of the financial loss he and fellow Tanner and Haley members  have suffered.  This should qualify as a complaint. From what I have seen nothing is in place to prevent it from happening to current DC owners. This will of course be turned around into an attack on my part by people on this site. It is simply an example of a complaint, addressed to you by an owner in the past. It is also a concern anyone considering investing in a DC should consider. To say it can't happen to my DC would be putting ones head in the sand.



Tombo,

There are many things in place to prevent that from happening.  (not saying it won't happen, because it still could, but there are many things in place).

1. DCA
2. Substantially less reliance on leased properties
3. No DC's making promises of 'anytime, anywhere' availability that got TH in trouble
4.  Financial audits by third party CPA firms that are released to members and prospective members.

and for me (as a Bellehavens member) the most important of all....

2 Equity clubs:  Crescendo and Bellehavens.

Bellehavens has no debt.  The properties are owned free and clear by the members. You, in theory, could lose a portion of the deposit, but whether you do or not is mainly tied to the overall real estate market (or luxury real estate market) and not to the mismanagement of the club.


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## Bourne (Nov 21, 2007)

tombo said:


> Bill you said:
> 
> This is a response to you from RLG on another thread after you made the statement that Tanner members weren't hurt by the bankruptcy:
> 
> ...



*Go back and read my post on that thread. Tanner members who joined UR did not lose everything. It was not a 100% loss. Far from it. 
*

Ultimate Resorts offer was...

Tanner & Haley members who join Ultimate Resort and remain in good standing for at least five years will be allowed to cancel their membership and redeem their deposit on a “three-in, one-out” basis. In other words, three new members must join the club before you are allowed to leave. The deposit redemption amounts are as follows: 

After 5 years of membership, 60% of the "then current membership fee"
After 6 years of membership, 70% of the "then current membership fee"
After 7 years of membership, 80% of the "then current membership fee"

Not looking at all facts before posting concerns is not taking one's head out of the sand.


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 21, 2007)

Here is something I don’t understand.

  I can’t afford a Gulfstream G550 private jet ($59.9m) or a Sunseeker 108 foot yacht ($12m), or a membership in Yellowstone Club World ($3m), yet I don’t go to internet sites and try to convince someone that flying JetBlue is better than buying a G550, buying a Boston Whaler is better than a Sunseeker, or joining HCC is better than joining Yellowstone Club World.

  I am happy that I can afford the things I have and I feel very fortunate.

  Why does a non-Destination Club member like TB constantly want to post so much false information on something they have ZERO first-hand knowledge of?

  PerryM is different than TB as he brings constructive and intelligent debate to the pros and cons of joining a DC.

  T&H is old news to anyone in the know and yes RLG was unhappy they lost money on that deal. Of the 4,679 posts on this forum, I forgot that there was one person that was unhappy with their decision to join a DC. I never got a clear answer from RLG why they did NOT take the UR offer like the other approximate 80% of T&H members did. 

  I am getting “sooooooo” tired of these viruses infecting our DC threads.


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 21, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I am getting “sooooooo” tired of these viruses infecting our DC threads.



 To configure TUGbbs to ignore a particular person’s posts, follow the following directions:

  1. Click on User CP at the top left of the screen

  2. Click on Buddy / Ignore Lists on the bottom left of the screen

  3. Add the offending person you want to ignore to the box for Ignore list and click save.

  Then you will see something like this when that person post a message:

  This message is hidden because *[FONT=&quot]*****[/FONT]* is on your ignore list.


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## Brian222golf (Nov 21, 2007)

I just wanted to say that Bill does not get paid.  He allowed me to call him and ask him questions about HCC and other clubs as well.  He did not try to sell me on HCC.  He gave the good points and the bad points as well.  

After picking his brain and doing a lot of research on my own - I decided to join HCC.  I am still waiting for my first trip.  

I can only say that this forum, Bill's advice, and HCC have been nothing but extremely helpful and professional.

I would not worry too much about tombo - he is angry, and is only here to puch the buttons of those of us who can.


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## tombo (Nov 22, 2007)

Bourne wants to tell RLG and me how great a shape financially RLG is in after Tanner filed Bankruptcy. He wants to tell RLG how he didn't lose 100% even though RLG who was a Tanner owner specifically states 100% loss if you don't want to belong to the club anymore. 

Bill said:
"Why does a non-Destination Club member like TB constantly want to post so much false information on something they have ZERO first-hand knowledge of?"

Why is it good for Bourne to tell me that I need to research more and that RLG is wrong. Bourne has " ZERO first hand knowledge" of what it was like to own at Tanner during bankruptcy and after. Shouldn't he be admonished too?



Bill said:
"I can’t afford a Gulfstream G550 private jet ($59.9m) or a Sunseeker 108 foot yacht ($12m), or a membership in Yellowstone Club World ($3m), yet I don’t go to internet sites and try to convince someone that flying JetBlue is better than buying a G550, buying a Boston Whaler is better than a Sunseeker, or joining HCC is better than joining Yellowstone Club World."

To compare buying anything (like a Gulfstream or a boat) to joining a DC that has no personal ownership whatsoever makes no sense. Compare the planes and boats to timeshares (which you do own )and a debate could be started.

Well I hate to tell you but I can afford some DC's like HCC easily, but I couldn't afford several of the high end DC's. I don't join because I think they are risky and based on trusting that the owners (the DC corp) do right things for the members. You pay a lot, own nothing, pay huge fees to rent what you purchased for the owner every year, and trust everything to go well because the owners are great businessmen like Donald Trump (who fleeced many investors in Atlantic City out of their money as he filed Bankruptcy). 

I am on this site because it is TIMESHARE USERS GROUP and I own many timeshares. Often in the buying section a DC owner will state that buying a timeshare is folly and DC is the only way to go. I read such a post and began researching to see if I wanted to join one. I feel the risk to reward is too great. I would hate for someone who isn't rich enough to throw away $75,000or more join a DC without knowing their is great risk and other potential problems. Many DC potential members can't afford to join as evidenced by the financing options for membership fees being offered on their web site.  If you have to finance a DC or a timeshare, you shouldn't join or buy. 

I also speak adamnently against buying Timeshares from the developers as the second you do you will lose half or more of your purchase price. The difference is that the advocates of buying timeshares from developers aren't so defensive, and don't respond so negativelly. They usually state why they feel it is better in their opinion rather than attacking me. I think that the obvious truths I speak here about DC's hit a nerve which is why I am attacked even by a moderator. Instead of lashing out, how about disputing my statements with rational counter arguments, or simply acknowleding them as the truth? 

I will make all of the people here a deal. If I don't see people attempting to recruit new DC owners on other traditional timeshare sites on TUG, I won't come back here with any posts on this alternative vacations TUG site. If you must post there, I must return here to warn the potential DC members of the facts that aren't as rosy as everyone here professes.


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## Tedpilot (Nov 22, 2007)

Tombo, you make some good points so maybe we could start a new thread of pros/cons of DCs vs timeshares vs fractionals vs renting (hotel, condo, resort, etc...).  Perhaps capture the sweetspot of each and then publish/post a synopsis/chart of which venue might be best for prospective buyers?  The problem and value in doing this is that each is significantly different in cost, risk, reward, usage, etc...  They don't easily compare and each persons tastes and risk tolerance would drive them to one genre of product vs another.  A little normalization between the different venues could be achieved.  Perhaps, template a three or four-week per year snapshot of each and then proceed from there.

Example:

                   DC       TS        Frac       Rent
Cost/night    300        ?           ?          150
Cost/sqft/nt  .15        ?           ?          .30
Cost/pp/nt    50        ?           ?            38
Avg size      2000'    1000'      3000'       500
Trade           N          Y         Some       no
Sell             Some      Y           Y          NA
Booking     Anytime    Lim         Lim     Anytime
Oblg debt      N          Y           Y          NA
Services        Y        Some       N           Y
Exit Strat     3:1       Sell         Sell        NA


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## tombo (Nov 22, 2007)

Ted, I think all of the factors you mention are valid when deciding whether a timeshare or DC is worth the outlay and annual fees. It would make sense to compare since despite their differences, all are just alternatives to renting or purchasing outright future vacation destinations.

I promise not to get my feelings hurt and lash out when negatives are posted about timeshares. I would hope fractionals and DC owners could do the same. There are pros for everything and cons for everything and you must be open minded or there is no reason to even discuss. If it looks good on paper could I even be convinced to join HCC before the price hike? I do doubt it but will listen with an open mind.

P.S. Since I promised not to post here anymore if no sales pitches for DC's are made on the traditional TS sites, the thread needs to be somehwere else as I would like to participate but won't do it here as promised. Sorry I did post here one more time but it was in response to a question by Ted for an interesting thread.


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 22, 2007)

tombo said:


> Ted, I think all of the factors you mention are valid when deciding whether a timeshare or DC is worth the outlay and annual fees. It would make sense to compare since despite their differences, all are just alternatives to renting or purchasing outright future vacation destinations.
> 
> I promise not to get my feelings hurt and lash out when negatives are posted about timeshares. I would hope fractionals and DC owners could do the same. There are pros for everything and cons for everything and you must be open minded or there is no reason to even discuss. If it looks good on paper could I even be convinced to join HCC before the price hike? I do doubt it but will listen with an open mind.
> 
> P.S. Since I promised not to post here anymore if no sales pitches for DC's are made on the traditional TS sites, the thread needs to be somehwere else as I would like to participate but won't do it here as promised. Sorry I did post here one more time but it was in response to a question by Ted for an interesting thread.



This is the smartest post you have made since you joined TUG (IMHO ).

Any discussions on DC, fractionals, condo-hotels should be posted here.  Discussions on VRBO can be posted here or elsewhere.

I can honestly say - I  never intended to  create any posts here or on the Buying, Selling, Renting forum that was meant to be a sales pitch for any DC (or DVC, Marriott, Westgate, etc).

I will post about DCs on rare occasions on the Buying, Selling, Renting forum as a courtesy to all TUGers as many of them never read the Non-traditional Interval Ownership forums and some of the DCs priceing options are very attractive and can actually be LESS than buying a timeshare week.

I never read the Wyndham Resorts or the Starwood Vacation Ownership forums, but I would read an occasional post on the  Buying, Selling, Renting forum if it interested me.

Constructive debate is always welcomed, it is the constant badgering from non-DC owners that myself (and others) are getting tired of reading.


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## WhiteSand (Nov 22, 2007)

I found this site while researching DCs  through a Google search, so I'm not a timeshare person and don't have much experience with them.  

That said, I think that the DC idea appeals to a different market than the timeshare, although in the case of HCC the price point may be similar. 

A major motivation for joining a DC for people I know who are members of ER, Lusso and HCC is convenience.  We are 2 working parents with no time to plan vacations, although we do make time to take them.  I don't want to spend hours of time trading a TS.  I also don't want to spend the time researching the destination, finding a hotel or villa, renting it, arrranging transportation from airport, groceries, etc... I just want to have nice places to go to that have been pre-screened for me with support and concierge services when I need it.  I'm willing to pay a premium to have that experience.  I hope I don't lose all the money, but if I do the HCC membership isn't high enough yet that the loss of it will ruin me.  

It seems that TS owners actually like the game of trading and beating the system and spending the time to do that.  I think the TS owners forget that the convenience and service a DC offers is part of what you are paying for and what is attractive to many DC members.  

In my opinion, its been worth it.  No more evenings online trying to find the perfect hotel somewhere--I know the HCC properties will be nice and I can book them in 5 minutes and i'm done with it.  Maybe I'm lazy and spoiled, (probably both,) but I can't imagine going back to the VRBO site...


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## vivalour (Nov 22, 2007)

Tombo,
IMHO, you've made your point -- more than once-- and I don't understand why you persist in repeatedly "warning" readers  -- ad nauseam -- of the potential follies of buying into a DC.  Frankly, as a possible DC purchaser, I find this to be highly patronizing. I can size up the risks myself and I'm sure that intelligent people can judge for themselves once they do their research BEYOND the posts on this TUG site. Most DC owners here have already told you that they looked very carefully into the advantages & risks and STILL chose to go ahead.  So why not move onto another topic???


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## CaliFam (Nov 26, 2007)

*Some questions*

I am seriously considering joining HCC by the end of this week but had a few questions you all may be able to answer.  We are a busy family with 4 children.  Do you recommend the 15 day or the 25 day membership?  I am afraid that with sports, boy scouts, school, etc, we will only have a limited time to use HCC and therefore like the 15 day membership, but it is not that much more to get the additional 10 days. Is everyone using all their days and do they wish they had more or less?  Second, many of the properties seem to be only 2 bedrooms. Could anyone with larger families weigh in and let me know your thoughts and if they had enough room for everyone.  Many thanks.


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 26, 2007)

CaliFam said:


> I am seriously considering joining HCC by the end of this week but had a few questions you all may be able to answer.  We are a busy family with 4 children.  Do you recommend the 15 day or the 25 day membership?  I am afraid that with sports, boy scouts, school, etc, we will only have a limited time to use HCC and therefore like the 15 day membership, but it is not that much more to get the additional 10 days. Is everyone using all their days and do they wish they had more or less?  Second, many of the properties seem to be only 2 bedrooms. Could anyone with larger families weigh in and let me know your thoughts and if they had enough room for everyone.  Many thanks.



I would recommend the 15 night plan with an option to upgrade to a 25 night plan in the future.

The average size of HCC properties is 3 bedrooms, with a range of 1-5 bedrooms. Only the units at expensive locations are 1-2 bedrooms (NYC, Turks, Tuscany), while many of the other properties have 3-5 bedrooms. Visit their web site and make a list of the 3-4 bedroom locations and see if these are areas you want to visit.

Either way, contact HCC before this Friday (November 30th) to get a contract sent to you with the current pricing as there is a HUGE increase on Saturday.

I am sure HCC will lock-in your price now and give you a week or two to sign the contract and get your finances in order. If you contact them after Saturday, they may not be so flexible.


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## travelguy (Nov 26, 2007)

CaliFam said:


> Is everyone using all their days and do they wish they had more or less?



Some of us with 45 days use all our days and need MORE!  

I'm still hoping to add another membership with the High Country Club timeshare trade-in program!


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 26, 2007)

travelguy said:


> Some of us with 45 days use all our days and need MORE!
> 
> I'm still hoping to add another membership with the High Country Club timeshare trade-in program!



I think you should change your screen name to "Lucky Dog" to better reflect your current lifestyle....congrats!


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## Laura7811 (Nov 26, 2007)

I just posted this on the new forum.. but will post again

We have decided to upgrade to Private Members we were going to do it 

anyway so why not right...We will probably have a bit more vaca time next.

we used all 25 days last year and could have used 1 more week. We will use

our family pass if we can't use all days.  If nothing else the family will be 

happy we upgraded... 

Laura


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## blackjack (Nov 28, 2007)

I am actually on the fence right now...I have a few questions for current members.  Is it hard to get a week at the most popular locations?  I am not very good at planning ahead and traveling as things seem to always pop up on me as a business owner.  So it is very rarely I can plan even 6 months ahead.

Also, is there daily house keeping?  how easy is the system to use to book vacations?


Also, my friends wants to talk me out of it and I keep trying to talk myself into it.  I am a single guy with no kids.  I don't really need the homes when I vacation.  Most likely a hotel room will do at this momment.  However, I am looking into the future and I want to be able to lock down on the prices of today.  However, say I waste a lot of weeks for the first 5 years of this membership...would it be better for me to just wait and buy in 5 years?  I know no one can predict the future but it is just a thought I try to figure out in my own head.

Also, does anyone have the Corp membership?  Do you guys think that one is worth it?  As I probably won't have 6 weeks of vacation to use until another 20 years, so I can gift these weeks to my parents or brothers...


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## Tedpilot (Nov 28, 2007)

Blackjack, 

- I have a Group/Corp plan and unused days go to my family as gifts.  That was purchased soley so that we could give away days if they went unused as there was not a family/friends upgrade at the time.
- Reservation system is super easy to use.
- Daily housekeeping is provided at a few locations (e.g., Playa Del Carmen).  If this is something you desire it can be arranged for an additional fee at any location.
- Availability...as a general rule the prime locations are booked for prime/holiday time periods well in advance.  Ex: Beaver Creek Vil Hall will be booked one year in advance for Xmas as would NYC for New Years.  Less popular places such as Rosemary Beach can be booked for major holidays with much less lead time.  However, there are some good deals to be had regardless...last year I booked Steamboat for Thanksgiving under 90 days and the following week at Beaver Creek Vil Hall.

Thought:  If you could not use all of the time for your plan and would be gifting to others then you could make it so they could book the long-term reservations and then you just book for locations 90-120 days out or less.

Today's prices vs the future:  Who knows?  If these last two years have been any indication of the future I'd expect rates for each plan to raise $15-25k/year.  If they expanded faster, possibly more increases or less but that is what I forsee happening.  HCC publicizes that they expect rates to breach $100k for a membership and they are well on their way.

The original Group/Corp rate in Nov 05' was $30k, $7200/year in fees as compared to today's rate of $70k and $9600.  Come next week, there will NOT be a Group/Corp rate, you'd have to combine a Private membership with Family/Friends upgrade that would cost you $80k, $10,800/yr with a reduction in the number of nights from 42 to 35.

Seems to be that sooner vs later would be a good choice if you are on the fence.  As for a snapshot of what you could book for a 90-120 day range you can ask HCC to provide you with such data.  I think you'll find good availability and might have to slide a week left/right for a particular property or change to another property for the specified week.  It all depends what you like and when.

Hope this helps with your decision!

Ted


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## jasfan (Nov 28, 2007)

Blackjack - I am in a similar situation.  Single, business owner.  Yet I am nearly certain I am going to take the leap at the 25-night Affiliate level.  I have multiple Marriott weeks and get ACs so I have many weeks yearly, so I gift what I don't use.  With HCC I will need to use the time with my involvement, yet it will open the options for me.  I can bring different friends or family, or limit guests with me in places like NY where there is a 1-bedroom.  I just know if I don't do it now, I will continue to have an excuse and miss the opportunity.  I delayed the Marriott TS for no reason for a few years and won't with this one.  I will post when I am inked.  jf


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## Brian222golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Blackjack,

I also purchased a corp. membership this past fall and it really has worked out well to this point.  I have given a week away and have a ski week in Stowe planned.  The main reason I purchased the membership is to share it with friends and family who are not in the same financial position that I am in.  I also agree with all of the comments of Ted.  

I thought about the future and how high the prices could go - i felt the price was hard to beat.

Good luck with your decision.


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## pwrshift (Nov 29, 2007)

Blackjack ... I'm a single guy of sorts too - call me an empty nester with grown children who have lives of their own now. In addition I have up to 10 weeks of Marriott timeshares with lockoff splits each year. I just don't need 3 or 4 bdrms offered by many DC's, so was kinda pleased to see that several HCC locations have less. I hate having to make beds in TS ... and it appears you have to do that with most DC's too unless you pay extra...same with personal chefs.

There was a time I stayed in Fairfield Inns, but times change. When I go away now, I really like room service,  valey parking, twice daily maid service, in upscale hotels that have bar/entertaiment in the middle of the action (or beachfront) instead of some remote DC house somewhere. 

It's also very unlikely I could get 4 weeks in a row from Pres Week to Spring Break beachfront in Fort Lauderdale (or anywhere) with a DC, so I'll have to keep the TS weeks to do that...as I have for the past 30 years or so. 

As a result, adding too many 'nights' with a DC to mix with my 10 TS weeks doesn't seem to make sense for me as it would really bug me to have to pay for something I didn't use. 

At the same time, an Associate Membership in HCC is about the price of a low priced Marriott timeshare week with a promise to give you 80% back if you resign (as long as you continue to pay your dues until your year ends). You wouldn't get that much back if you resold a Marriott TS if you purchased it direct - maybe only on resales.

I also hate one week trips unless I can drive to them and if there were more HCC locations available from Toronto I'm sure I could make use of their 3 and 4 night stays for quick mini-trips. 

As with anything you have to look at what you want from your vacation lifestyle - today and tomorrow. What you want tomorrow could be vastly different from your needs of today. Think it through.

Brian


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## DosMasCervesos (Nov 29, 2007)

*Our decision...*

After quite a bit of due diligence (getting financial information from HCC, talking to HCC and HCC members, reading this forum for months, etc.), it looks like we will be joining HCC. Thus far my experience dealing with HCC (mainly Heath) have been very positive and very low pressure.

I also did a bit of research on what it would cost to rent equivalent properties (inside furnishing/tweaks not taken into account) at some of the HCC locations. For some of the properties it was a wash, that is the HCC per night cost was about the rental cost. But for other properties HCC was clearly a much better deal.

I agree with some others that joining a DCC is more risky than owning a timeshare (we own a timeshare as well), with the exception being some of the pure equity DCCs that I have no chance of affording . But for us this increased risk is offset by the value proposition and higher quality properties.

Thanks to Bill and everyone else that has taken their time to talk to me and share their thoughts online.

Regards,
Matt


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## Tedpilot (Nov 29, 2007)

Congrats Matt and welcome aboard.


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## blackjack (Nov 29, 2007)

I think that is the toughest part for me.  I already have a fractional that gives me 5 weeks in November and a week in Big Bear, CA.  I already can't use them all as it is.  I have been very lucky and have been able to trade into wonderful weeks through Interval with my weeks since I am able to travel last minute.  I am extremely satisfied with the collection I have at this time.  BUT!!!  I am looking into the future.  I don't want to be priced out of HCC in 3 to 5 years down the line.  And I really don't see any other real good options for an entry level destination club.  The thought of being able to lock in the rate really is making this tough for me.  There isn't really enough time for me to make a decision so I think what I am going to do is pony up the 20k and have a WHOLE year to think about it doing the trial membership.  Thank you all for your input!!!  Happy Holidays!!!  I will post if I ink as well...


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 29, 2007)

I was going to suggest to Blackjack to join the 1 year trial with a 100% money back guarantee as the best option for him. Make sure that HCC locks-in the current rates if you decide to upgrade next year.

Everyone here knows I love HCC, but I am hesitant to make anything more than a 1 week membership reccomendation for you based upon your posts. Do NOT join HCC or any other DC just because you are concerned that you can't afford it in 5 years or so...worry about that then.

My other concern is about the 1 week plan, is that you are not going to be able to get the most popular HCC properties at the most popular times like you can with the other plans.


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## vivalour (Nov 30, 2007)

*We joined the Happy Campers Club yesterday...*

We finally sent in our $$ and are looking forward to our first trip to somewhere hot and sunny this winter. Best from the snowy north...


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## Bourne (Nov 30, 2007)

Companion $25,000 ($20,000*)  $2,100 ($1,750*)  7 nights  
Associate $40,000 ($30,000*)  $4,300 ($3,500*)  15 nights  
Affiliate $50,000 ($40,000*)  $6,600 ($5,400*)  25 nights  
Private $70,000 ($60,000*)  $9,000 ($8,400*)  35 nights (45 nights*) 

----------------------


If someone is planning on upgrading higher from a Companion or Associate level, now would be a good time. The the cost difference may be the same but the dues jump up higher. Over a period of time, it is the dues that skew the cost per night average.


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## Laura7811 (Dec 3, 2007)

Just want to say welcome to "The Club" to all the new memebers.  

Happy vacation planning,

Laura


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## steve b (Dec 4, 2007)

Congratulations on your purchase.  Nice to have another Texas HCC Member.
steve b


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