# Moderator warning: Stay on topic re points! Limit debates!



## Dave M (Jul 10, 2010)

I have received numerous complaints about the endless debates in many, many threads over the same points issues. *Starting now, and for at least a couple of weeks, I will liberally delete posts that are not directly related to the topic of any points thread started after I post this. I have already started closing threads that go off track and will do more of that.* 

You may respond to a question, but no debating of the same old issues is permitted in such new threads. If you want to debate an issue that seems related to the topic, find an existing thread with a similar debate and suggest to others that they "meet you" in that thread. If you wish to disagree with a post that is directly related to the topic, you may respond *once* in the thread with a link to an earlier post that you might have made in another thread that explains your position and no more than one short sentence stating that you disagree (but not why). 

There are a relatively few people here who seem to have made it their goal in life to convince others of their position for or against the points system or about what Marriott will or won't do in certain situations. Although debating might be fun, it is making it extremely difficult for interested participants to find the info they need to make decisions about the points system. Thus, please find another activity that doesn't disrupt this forum.


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## Lawlar (Jul 10, 2010)

*We Need A Good Debate*

I hope this doesn’t mean that Dave M is going to delete posts that are unfavorable to Marriott’s program.  I admire the TUGGERS who have warned prospective timeshare buyers of the risks involved in buying timeshares from the developer (the advantages of buying resale, rising MFs, and detrimental changes to the program).

Marriott’s Points program is not all positive.  Some of us believe it threatens the value of the original system.   One person’s debate is another person’s discussion.  Our thrashing out the pros and cons of the point system will hopefully prove valuable to those who are considering Marriott’s offer to join its new system.

I don’t think we should drink the Marriott cool-aid without a strong debate of the pros and cons.


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## winger (Jul 10, 2010)

Lawlar said:


> I hope this doesn’t mean that Dave M is going to delete posts that are unfavorable to Marriott’s program.  I admire the TUGGERS who have warned prospective timeshare buyers of the risks involved in buying timeshares from the developer (the advantages of buying resale, rising MFs, and detrimental changes to the program).
> 
> Marriott’s Points program is not all positive.  Some of us believe it threatens the value of the original system.   One person’s debate is another person’s discussion.  Our thrashing out the pros and cons of the point system will hopefully prove valuable to those who are considering Marriott’s offer to join its new system.
> 
> I don’t think we should drink the Marriott cool-aid without a strong debate of the pros and cons.


Strong debate and dissemination of info and ideas is is wanted/welcomed, but repeats of the same points by the same people _to_ the same people and what was turning out to be grownups 'hissing' at one another was getting very tiresome. I am here trying to learn info about the new system, not watch re-runs of a soap opera.


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## Dave M (Jul 10, 2010)

I have no personal bias towards or against the new program. (As I have previously posted, I have not decided whether to enroll.) Thus, if I delete posts, they will be on both sides of issues. Normally, the first post in a thread to be deleted will be the first one in that fails to follow the above rule, no matter whether it is pro or con.

There is ample room for debate. But not at the expense of derailing threads, especially when the issue being debated has already been debated endlessly in other threads, usually by the some of the same people.


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## ondeadlin (Jul 10, 2010)

I'm really disappointed in this.

And, to be clear, I'm not involved in ANY of these debates.

But I feel like since this plan has been announced, Dave, you have acted to stifle debate, particularly debate you disagree with. You have really used your position in a way that I think is inappropriate. It's fine to have an opinion, but I think your opinion is really influencing your moderation.

I've never criticized a TUG moderator before. It's extremely disappointing.

I will probably have to take it up with the management at this point, of course.


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## tombo (Jul 10, 2010)

Dave M said:


> There is ample room for debate. But not at the expense of derailing threads, especially when the issue being debated has already been debated endlessly in other threads, usually by the some of the same people.



Using this criteria you can just lock all threads as soon as they start because marriott has not released any new information since June 20th, so new facts will not be presented. Everything being discussed on every marriott thread regarding points is simply a variation or regurgitation of another thread, topic, discussion, or debate that has already occurred. Why not just shut the whole Marriott forum and let everyone read the posts that already exist?


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 10, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> I'm really disappointed in this.
> 
> And, to be clear, I'm not involved in ANY of these debates.
> 
> ...



I don't know.  I think it's a no-win for the moderator of a board such as this one.

Either leave it alone and it becomes a free for all.  Or, you delete/modify posts and feelings get hurt.

I view it like anything else.  Dave's the moderator, he makes the calls.  If you don't like it, there are other message boards with different moderating rules or you can sign up to be moderator.

If there is one thing I know about DaveM, he will follow the rules religiously.  If he sets a rule, he's going to follow it to the letter and apply it consistently.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 10, 2010)

tombo said:


> Using this criteria you can just lock all threads as soon as they start because marriott has not released any new information since June 20th, so new facts will not be presented. Everything being discussed on every marriott thread regarding points is simply a variation or regurgitation of another thread, topic, discussion, or debate that has already occurred. Why not just shut the whole Marriott forum and let everyone read the posts that already exist?



I think what Dave is saying is that we can make an argument, but only make it once per thread and make sure it's relevant to the topic of the thread.  Seems reasonable to me.


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## ondeadlin (Jul 10, 2010)

Well, Boca, I'd debate your points, but ...

;-)


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## dioxide45 (Jul 10, 2010)

I thought the whole purpose was for discussion/debate? In the end most questions lead to the same basic pros/cons of the system. Whatever the topic of a thread, all threads ultimately lead to the same discussion.

I guess everyone on both sides of the fence just need to agree to disagree and all talk of points would end.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 10, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> Well, Boca, I'd debate your points, but ...
> 
> ;-)



LOL.  The key strategy now should be waiting for everyone to get their arguments out and then make your argument.  When you see your adversary repeat his argument, click on the !.


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## Clemson Fan (Jul 11, 2010)

I agree with DaveM.  Most of the threads nowadays are frankly getting hijacked and the same points/counterpoints are being debated ad nauseum.  It does seem like certain people are making it their new life's goal to lead a charge to convince everybody to boycott the new points system.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 11, 2010)

Clemson Fan said:


> I agree with DaveM.  Most of the threads nowadays are frankly getting hijacked and the same points/counterpoints are being debated ad nauseum.  It does seem like certain people are making it their new life's goal to lead a charge to convince everybody to boycott the new points system.



So it is only those against the system that are in the wrong? I hope and don't think that is what DaveM is saying.


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## Clemson Fan (Jul 11, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> So it is only those against the system that are in the wrong? I hope and don't think that is what DaveM is saying.



Nobody is in the "wrong", but it does seem like tombo in particular is crusading trying to convince everybody not to join the points program.  Nearly every thread that has anything to do with points contains many of these posts from tombo.


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## cruisin (Jul 11, 2010)

The new program and Marriott's new posture toward owners makes it pretty tough to not creep into all issues. Though I totally disagree with this type of modding, and AGAIN, ANOTHER BAD RESULT OF MARRIOTTS NEW POINT SYSTEM, IT IS EVEN CHANGING TUG  ( that was for you TOMBO) it will be fun to watch everybodys one shot in each thread, it will really hone our skills!!


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## dioxide45 (Jul 11, 2010)

Dave M said:


> There are a relatively few people here who seem to have made it their goal in life to convince others of their position for or against the points system or about what Marriott will or won't do in certain situations.



Why weren't these relative few delt with individually instead of a blanket statement that puts a negative cast over the entire board?

It seems too often that we blast everyone instead of dealing with the troublemakers. I see this in the workplace every day. Hold a meeting or send out an e-mail that only pertains to a few.


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## ondeadlin (Jul 11, 2010)

It's a message board. If Tombo annoys people, they'll stop responding to him. That's how message boards work.

Message boards that start deciding what is "approved" conversation usually become very boring very fast. Especially when one person's opinion is apparently the only criteria for what is, and is not, allowed.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)




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## DanCali (Jul 11, 2010)

Clemson Fan said:


> Nobody is in the "wrong", but it does seem like tombo in particular is crusading trying to convince everybody not to join the points program.  Nearly every thread that has anything to do with points contains many of these posts from tombo.



So every time someone suggests to join the points program to keep using weeks (because this is the best argument so far in favor of the Marriott points program... "join and use weeks") that's ok? But if someone feels that there will be a big cost to that strategy down the road they should not repeat themselves? If someone keeps saying that it's possible to skim points from Marriott that's ok, but is someone vehemently disagrees with that argument it's not ok to respond every time that comes up?

Tombo is repeating himself because other people are repeating themselves... I'm repeating myself because new threads keep popping up and/or the same arguments on the other side of the debate are posted over and over too. But as long as there are people who seek advice, why not let them hear both sides of the argument? If you are sick of hearing tombo (or me for that matter) you should know that TUG does have an ignore feature - if you use it you won't see any of our posts...


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## cruisin (Jul 11, 2010)

DanCali said:


> So every time someone suggests to join the points program to keep using weeks (because this is the best argument so far in favor of the Marriott points program... "join and use weeks") that's ok? But if someone feels that there will be a big cost to that strategy down the road they should not repeat themselves? If someone keeps saying that it's possible to skim points from Marriott that's ok, but is someone vehemently disagrees with that argument it's not ok to respond every time that comes up?
> 
> Tombo is repeating himself because other people are repeating themselves... I'm repeating myself because new threads keep popping up and/or the same arguments on the other side of the debate are posted over and over too. But as long as there are people who seek advice, why not let them hear both sides of the argument? If you are sick of hearing tombo (or me for that matter) you should know that TUG does have an ignore feature - if you use it you won't see any of our posts...



Now you will only get 1 shot, a lot like that 1 time marriott deal only good for today if you buy points right now.


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## brigechols (Jul 11, 2010)

DanCali said:


> you should know that TUG does have an ignore feature - if you use it you won't see any of our posts...



I agree and advocated this step in another thread.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=924343&highlight=ignore#post924343


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## Beverley (Jul 11, 2010)

Thanks, Dave.  Good call.  You have my support on this. 

Beverley


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## sernow (Jul 11, 2010)

Boo. I found TUG when I needed info the most and have always appreciated the free flow of information and vigorous debate, most of which is friendly. This is a huge issue that effects all Marriott owners greatly and the more debate, the better. 

I don't like the idea that it appears the supporters of Marriott's new points program have been able to stifle those who oppose the system using a method other than debate.


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## Dave M (Jul 11, 2010)

DanCali said:


> So every time someone suggests to join the points program to keep using weeks (because this is the best argument so far in favor of the Marriott points program... "join and use weeks") that's ok? But if someone feels that there will be a big cost to that strategy down the road they should not repeat themselves? If someone keeps saying that it's possible to skim points from Marriott that's ok, but is someone vehemently disagrees with that argument it's not ok to respond every time that comes up?


Good post, Dan. Neither is okay. It matters not which side of the fence you are on.





> Tombo is repeating himself because other people are repeating themselves... I'm repeating myself because new threads keep popping up and/or the same arguments on the other side of the debate are posted over and over too. But as long as there are people who seek advice, why not let them hear both sides of the argument?


Yes, they should be able to hear both sides. And because both sides have usually been debated numerous times, you can do them a service by providing a link to one or more of those debates.


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## windje2000 (Jul 11, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


>



  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM


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## jennifer 4 (Jul 11, 2010)

Dave, I support you in this.  There is enough information already posted for a person to be able to make up their own mind.  Even people who are for or against may actually change by the time they make their final decision.
I see no point in continually rehashing the same subject over and over.
Reading some of these postings was like being in the middle of a bad soap opera.

Life is going to go on whether you use points or not.  Most of us, unless we sell, will continue using our timeshares.  Life is too short; let us try to help each other by relaying any new helpful information we find.  That is why most of us joined TUG.


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## Janette (Jul 11, 2010)

Thanks Dave. It's time to enjoy our vacations, look at our own situation and stop worrying about what others are doing. Sorry you have had such a hard few weeks moderating.


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## Dave M (Jul 11, 2010)

sernow said:


> Boo. I found TUG when I needed info the most and have always appreciated the free flow of information and vigorous debate, most of which is friendly. This is a huge issue that effects all Marriott owners greatly and the more debate, the better.


Debate is healthy. But endless repetition is not useful at the expense of hijacking the useful flow of new information.  





> I don't like the idea that it appears the supporters of Marriott's new points program have been able to stifle those who oppose the system using a method other than debate.


See my most recent post in this thread. It's neither supporters nor opposers who are stifling debate. Debate can live on. (Please read my OP carefully.) 

Many will recall that we used to have some people who regularly derailed almost every thread dealing with resales into a debate over whether ROFR was a good or bad thing. So I set up a designated thread for debate on ROFR. Eventually, the ROFR debate moderated such that it was no longer necessary to limit debate to that one thread. I expect that will happen here, too.

Perhaps we need some similarly designated threads on a few of the most pressing issues as well as a general points debate thread. That way, those (such as Dan) who believe that a poster must hear all of the continuing arguments for and against a particular issue, whether the poster wants to or not, can link the poster to the designated thread.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 11, 2010)

Give it time. It will all settle down. Right now there's a bunch of unknowns and owners are a little wound up not knowing exactly how the change will affect them. This time next year we'll all know pretty much how, or if, we've been affected. I'm betting the short and long term affect won't be nearly as bad as some of us have speculated.


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## jlf58 (Jul 11, 2010)

I personally think Dave needs a man hug to get him through this  





dougp26364 said:


> Give it time. It will all settle down. Right now there's a bunch of unknowns and owners are a little wound up not knowing exactly how the change will affect them. This time next year we'll all know pretty much how, or if, we've been affected. I'm betting the short and long term affect won't be nearly as bad as some of us have speculated.


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## jennifer 4 (Jul 11, 2010)

OK, Everybody!!

1,2,3, Visualize a Big Group Hug!!!


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## m61376 (Jul 11, 2010)

How about 2 distinct threads- one for all the pros of the new program (and, I think most of us would agree that, despite the deficiencies and things we don't like, there are potentially many benefits) and one for the cons and less friendly aspects. That way, when someone looks here for help in making a decision, they can find all the positives and all the negatives, and use those threads to help make an informed decision.

Past that, something we all have to accept is this is what is. Let's get back to doing what Tuggers usually do best- help each other out to find the best ways to make this work and find the loopholes to work to our mutual benefit; that will likely help in the decision making process as well.


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## tombo (Jul 11, 2010)

Clemson Fan said:


> Nobody is in the "wrong", but it does seem like tombo in particular is crusading trying to convince everybody not to join the points program.  Nearly every thread that has anything to do with points contains many of these posts from tombo.



Every one of those threads also contain NUMEROUS posts from people advocating points such as Boca and Doug.Why not mention them by name?  90% of my posts are in response to someone else's post who is advocating conversion to points. How can you notice my posts and not the quote included in it I am reponding to? Many if not the majority of my posts are responding to someone who made a post directly to me or about one of my posts? Should I not respond?

Boca has responded with opposing opinions to 2 people who posted things he disagreed with (myself and ondeadline) and posted 4 times in this thread which asks people to limit debates.Why not mention him? I did not respond to Boca on this thread, and ondeadline only responded that he can't respond because it would be 2 posts. Those by Boca don't seem to bother you. In fact on one thread Dave locked yesterday Boca and Doug made 9 consecutive posts advocating conversion to points with no one else posting in between until I made one final post, then it was locked. Once again this didn't bother you? Only my repetitive posts are of concern, or is it only repetitive posts against Marriott points that are of concern? By the way, I am not mad at Doug or Boca, they are simply good examples of posters who express their opinions repeatedly too.

PS This is only my second post on this thread, and I wouldn't have posted it if not called out by name.


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## kedler (Jul 11, 2010)

Dave M said:


> Good post, Dan. Neither is okay. It matters not which side of the fence you are on.Yes, they should be able to hear both sides. And because both sides have usually been debated numerous times, you can do them a service by providing a link to one or more of those debates.



I still haven't figured out how to provide a link to a post or a thread would you please tell me how or provide a link to where the information is contained on TUG - I figured out how to insert a link to a web page but not to TUG posts/threads.


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## pedro47 (Jul 11, 2010)

Will Marriott in the future come out with a clearer understanding or guidelines of the new point program? To clear the air.

Please! I am not trying start to an argument.  I just need a clearer understanding of the program.

Please delete this post if this is going to start a unkind discussion.

I support Dave M decision on this topic.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

tombo said:


> Every one of those threads also contain NUMEROUS posts from people advocating points such as Boca and Doug. 90% of my posts are in response to someone else's post who is advocating conversion to points. How can you notice my posts and not the quote included in it I am reponding to? Many if not the majority of my posts are responding to someone who made a post directly to me or about one of my posts? Should I not respond?
> 
> Boca has responded with opposing opinions to 2 people who posted things he disagreed with (myself and ondeadline) and posted 4 times in this thread which asks people to limit debates.Why not mention him? I did not respond to Boca on this thread, and ondeadline only responded that he can't respond because it would be 2 posts. Those don't seem to bother you. In fact on one thread Dave closed Boca and Doug made 9 consecutive posts with no one else posting in between until I made one final post, then it was locked. Once again this didn't bother you? Only my repetitive posts are of concern, or is it only repetitive posts against Marriott points that are of concern? By the way, I am not mad at Doug or Boca, they are simply good examples of posters who express their opinions repeatedly too.
> 
> PS This is only my second post on this thread, and I wouldn't have posted it if not called out by name.



Tombo,

I think I am part of the problem.  I don't think that thread was closed exclusively because of you.  I think it was closed partly because of me as well for the reason you state.  

Actually, I am advocating that owners make their own decision and decide what they want to do based on what they read.  Owners who agree with you should not enroll into the program.  Owners who want to play the game the way I do, should consider doing it.


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## ondeadlin (Jul 11, 2010)

I've sent an e-mail to Brian because I'd like him to take a look at this decision.

If TUG is going to suddenly take a hard line on policing debate, it should do so with fairness to both sides. As I said yesterday, I don't think I've ever criticized a moderator or a moderator's decision before, but the last few weeks have really been a change in direction on this board. 

If you can't tolerate others' opinions due to your own personal affection for the Marriott system, or your own personal connections with Marriott insiders who provide you with information for this board, than perhaps you should take a step back from moderating.

And if it's just that you don't like disagreement, then ... well ... perhaps moderating a discussion board which depends on debate for a good deal of its traffic isn't the best fit. The simple answer to anyone complaining about opinions they disagree with is this: Use the ignore button or don't read the posts.

Edited to add: And the exclamation points bug me. They're not the sort of thing most moderators would tolerate from a regular poster, because they're the Internet  version of yelling, and thus disrespectful. You don't foster respect with disrespect.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 11, 2010)

It seems this whole thread was started to just stir more debate....:ignore::rofl:


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## FlyerBobcat (Jul 11, 2010)

kedler said:


> I still haven't figured out how to provide a link to a post or a thread would you please tell me how or provide a link to where the information is contained on TUG - I figured out how to insert a link to a web page but not to TUG posts/threads.



At the upper right corner of every post is a number (#x).  If you select that, a new window for that post will pop-up, and the URL can be copied from the top of that browser window.  Paste that link as you would for any web page in your new posting.

Also, at the top of that individual post page will be a "thread" link that can be selected ---- and then it will show the entire thread (or one of the pages of that thread.)


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## CMF (Jul 11, 2010)

FlyerBobcat said:


> At the upper right corner of every post is a number (#x).  If you select that, a new window for that post will pop-up, and the URL can be copied from the top of that browser window.  Paste that link as you would for any web page in your new posting.
> 
> Also, at the top of that individual post page will be a "thread" link that can be selected ---- and then it will show the entire thread (or one of the pages of that thread.)




Thanks for the tip!
Charles


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## m61376 (Jul 11, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Owners who want to play the game the way I do, should consider doing it.



and herein lies one of the best parts of this Board- learning from others how to do what might benefit us most- whether we elect to join or not, the rules have changed and collectively we can learn how to manipulate things in our best interests.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> I've sent an e-mail to Brian because I'd like him to take a look at this decision.
> 
> If TUG is going to suddenly take a hard line on policing debate, it should do so with fairness to both sides. As I said yesterday, I don't think I've ever criticized a moderator or a moderator's decision before, but the last few weeks have really been a change in direction on this board.
> 
> ...



I can go either way.  A total free for all, or a moderated approach. As long as I know what the rules are, I'll follow them.

If I were Brian, I would support DaveM.  He has done the most I've seen to create the best Marriott forum on the internet.  

If others think they can create a better one, I say go for it.  PerryM is trying.


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## jlf58 (Jul 11, 2010)

I have the utmost respect for Dave but censoring BBS threads is not what TUG should be about. 






BocaBum99 said:


> I can go either way.  A total free for all, or a moderated approach. As long as I know what the rules are, I'll follow them.
> 
> If I were Brian, I would support DaveM.  He has done the most I've seen to create the best Marriott forum on the internet.
> 
> If others think they can create a better one, I say go for it.  PerryM is trying.


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## ondeadlin (Jul 11, 2010)

Let me be clear that I also have considerable respect for Dave. He does what is essentially a thankless job.

But he has not "done the most" to create "the best Marriott forum on the Internet" - because without the core posters, there is no forum. Nobody is going to come here just to listen to any one person. You've created this forum, Boca, and Perry has, and Fletch has, and, of course, Dave has, and so on ... including people I don't agree with. It's that exchange of knowledge and viewpoints that has created "the best Marriott forum on the Internet."

But if you think that's not a fragile thing, consider how AOL once dominated the e-market and is now an afterthought.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> Let me be clear that I also have considerable respect for Dave. He does what is essentially a thankless job.
> 
> But he has not "done the most" to create "the best Marriott forum on the Internet" - because without the core posters, there is no forum. Nobody is going to come here just to listen to any one person. You've created this forum, Boca, and Perry has, and Fletch has, and, of course, Dave has, and so on ... including people I don't agree with. It's that exchange of knowledge and viewpoints that has created "the best Marriott forum on the Internet."
> 
> But if you think that's not a fragile thing, consider how AOL once dominated the e-market and is now an afterthought.



I didn't say he was the ONLY person who made this a great forum. I said he did the MOST to make this the best forum.  Please point out a single other person who has done more?


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

Fletch said:


> I have the utmost respect for Dave but censoring BBS threads is not what TUG should be about.



Most professional message boards have some type of moderation that includes modifying or deleting posts.  TUG has always had moderation rules.  In fact, when Brian came on, they were significantly relaxed.  

Timeshare Forums was created to have more liberal posting rules in part due to moderation rules on TUG.  So, there are choices out there for people who want more or less freedom to post what they want.

This forum is indeed the best Marriott forum on the internet and I give DaveM most of the credit.  I think we need to back off Dave and let him run it the way he wants.  He has earned the right to make that call.  I'll bet Brian supports that idea.


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## l2trade (Jul 11, 2010)

I prefer an approach to moderating a forum which relies on *warning* and *moving* posts to the appropriate thread versus *deleting* them.  I believe deletes should only happen to posts that are rude, vulgar, political, advertisement,  etc.  The standard stuff I've always expected from TUG forum rules.

I recognize that I am just a participant in these discussions.  I am not a moderator and this is not my forum.  TUG has every right to delete any of my posts.  I have every right not to like it when they do so in a way I feel stifles free speech.  I had a post deleted without warning on Jun 20th because I supposedly posted it in the wrong thread.   I took my time and energy to contribute what I thought was relevant explanations I was getting from Marriott about the point value differences.  Why delete that?  Why not move it or at least warn me ahead of time, so I can copy my comments and not lose my work when you do.  Because I was unhappy, I took a ~6 day self imposed break from posting on the Marriott forum.  I assumed stuff was settling down here, so I returned in a more limited way.  I am still NOT sharing here to the degree I would have otherwise.  I am not participating to the degree I did prior to Jun 20th when I researched and gave accurate facts about the upcoming points system BEFORE it was official.

Here's hoping Brian makes an inclusive decision to encourage the active board participation we see.  Deletes will stifle that free speech and free debate.  Yes, I have every right to seek exercise of my FREE SPEECH elsewhere.  If the stuff I write and read here gets deleted for the reasons promised earlier in this thread, I promise to leave the Marriott forum.  I can post or blog elsewhere about timeshares.  I choose TUG because it felt inviting and inclusive and diverse.  Let's please respect that diversity of ideas.  Let's give people a chance to talk about these topics as long as they feel a need or desire to.  It is having a place to go to discuss these topics ad nauseam which makes this place so unique and welcoming.  In the real world, L2Trade gets booted when he talks on and on and on about timesharing.  I thought TUG was a safe, virtual place I could visit and have the freedom to go on and on and on.  You can ignore me if you wish, anybody can ignore those they don't want to hear, but if you delete me you take away other people's freedom to listen.  :ignore:  

Maybe it is time for TUG to add a LIKE feature to help people who are so overwhelmed or offended by too much to read.  Maybe you only like taking the time to read some of what I have to say and prefer to ignore the rest.  With a LIKE feature, you could just set a filter to only read the most liked posts.  I will continue to read them all, all viewpoints, or else I will leave entirely if I lose my freedom to do so.


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## lovearuba (Jul 11, 2010)

*just wish the rules were consistent*

Its amazes me that the moderator is a Marriott owner and has a close friend in a high place at Marriott.  Given that bias, I would say Dave does as good a job as anyone in that position would have.  If it is not possible to have a moderator that is a non owner and not affiliated with Marriott then Dave is the best man for the job.


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## GeNioS (Jul 11, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> It's a message board. If Tombo annoys people, they'll stop responding to him. That's how message boards work.
> 
> Message boards that start deciding what is "approved" conversation usually become very boring very fast. Especially when one person's opinion is apparently the only criteria for what is, and is not, allowed.


This.  (I reserve the right to post one additional comment if I come up with something original.)


----------



## GeNioS (Jul 11, 2010)

Okay, fine....personally, I think the thread that has educated me the most on the points system was the one where two people were discussing one's exchange history and whether the points system would be beneficial to them.

One person said it would be and one was disagreeing.  And both were giving great opinions and showing real world examples to boot.  If either party gets tired of the discussion, stop responding....but that thread has been the single best (and impartial) informational source regarding the points system that I have found (in regards to how it will impact me).

Threads tend to migrate towards the issues people want to discuss, or isues which have no clear answer...how many threads ended up at ROFR (which apparently = ROFL? joke.  I'm NOT getting into that one....)

The interesting part of this, and what makes this different from most topics, is that people who do not join the points system will, in fact, be affected by those who do...and vice versa.  For that, both sides have a vested interest in making sure that they convey every point possible to show why they believe they are correct.

Certainly, if someone posts "DON'T JOIN THE POINTS SYSTEM" in the middle of a "Which Villa do I request at NCV" thread, it should be removed.  But if a thread is titled,"Does the points system work for me," someone should be able to post and repost and repost again as long as their is anyone willing to continue the discussion, argument, debate...whatever.

My two cents. (Which I believe is worth one now in the new Marriott point system.  Sorry, couldn't resist. I'll start another thread.)


----------



## Latravel (Jul 11, 2010)

I applaud this decision.  Can you imagine this board without a strong moderator?  It would be taken over by the same few people with very strong opinions.  

I personally have stopped reading the posts because they are long, boring and filled with wrong information. Thanks, Dave, and hopefully this will return the board to more interesting/intelligent conversation and I can start reading again.


----------



## taffy19 (Jul 11, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


>


 


windje2000 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM


This movie will make you laugh.:rofl: 

We need this to lighten up.


----------



## hotcoffee (Jul 11, 2010)

Latravel said:


> I applaud this decision.  Can you imagine this board without a strong moderator?  It would be taken over by the same few people with very strong opinions.
> 
> I personally have stopped reading the posts because they are long, boring and filled with wrong information. Thanks, Dave, and hopefully this will return the board to more interesting/intelligent conversation and I can start reading again.



I agree completely.  I have lost interest in most of the threads now.  They are too long with mostly two or three people debating one-another on issues that are largely speculative.


----------



## taffy19 (Jul 11, 2010)

jennifer4 said:


> OK, Everybody!!
> 
> 1,2,3, Visualize a Big Group Hug!!!


Thanks as this topic is very important to most of us.


----------



## DanCali (Jul 11, 2010)

Latravel said:


> I applaud this decision.  Can you imagine this board without a strong moderator?  It would be taken over by the same few people with very strong opinions.
> 
> I personally have stopped reading the posts because they are long, boring and filled with wrong information. Thanks, Dave, and hopefully this will return the board to more interesting/intelligent conversation and I can start reading again.



Well, you obviously haven't stopped reading all posts since you found this thread 

I have been avoiding posting in this thread because although I have a lot to say after getting my posts deleted and threads I posted in getting shut down (and I'm not the only one it happened to) I have been sent a PM by the moderator a couple of weeks ago that if I imply censorship directly or indirectly I may be banned from further posting on TUG. So other than this factual statement, which I think is important in the context on the thread, I'm done on this topic :ignore: 

I apologize to whose who miss the "good old days" when people were raving about Marriott resorts on this board all day long. But you know what...? I miss the Bush era and can't help that either. Just as the Bush era ended on January 20, 1010 I think the Marriott "good old days" on TUG ended on June 20, 2010. This is not a bunch of Tuggers hijacking the board. This is Marriott's doing by betraying their most loyal owners... I'm a relatively new Marriott owner and feel betrayed - I can't even begin imagine how people who have owned for 10-15 years feel. Should we pretend this fundamental change never happened and go back to singing Kumbaya all day long?


----------



## hotcoffee (Jul 11, 2010)

DanCali said:


> . . . I apologize to whose who miss the "good old days" when people were raving about Marriott resorts on this board all day long. But you know what...? I miss the Bush era and can't help that either. Just as the Bush era ended on January 20, 1010 I think the Marriott "good old days" on TUG ended on June 20, 2010. This is not a bunch of Tuggers hijacking the board. This is Marriott's doing by betraying their most loyal owners... I'm a relatively new Marriott owner and feel betrayed - I can't even begin imagine how people who have owned for 10-15 years feel. Should we pretend this fundamental change never happened and go back to singing Kumbaya all day long?



Well, where the posts on on topic and not degenerating into just two or three people going off on tangents, it is possible to learn something.

You have forced me on two occasions to go back and reread documents and talk to Marriott reps to clarify issues that were inaccurate.  That is useful.  

We can disagree on whether there is really anyone truly "betrayed" by the new program, but the forum still needs to stay focused on helping all of us gain useful and accurate information.


----------



## NboroGirl (Jul 11, 2010)

Fletch said:


> I have the utmost respect for Dave but censoring BBS threads is not what TUG should be about.



Good grief!  I did not read anything that said Dave is censoring BBS threads, only that he wants threads to REMAIN ON TOPIC.  Nothing wrong with that.  He said nothing about trying to abolish debates, only that these debates should be contained within the thread that pertains to them.

Like LaTravel, I stopped visiting this site for about a week because it seemed every thread turned into a debate between the same 6 individuals arguing the pros and cons of Marriott's new poinits system.  Just came back today, saw this thread, and had to add my 2 cents.


----------



## David10225 (Jul 11, 2010)

I'm just a daily reader but a nobody infrequent poster, but I'm kind of saddened by this.  It does seem like censorship to me.  I have no way of knowing what's in anyone's head, but that's how it feels to me.  My philosophy is to ignore any thread that seems off topic.

We had like what...almost 2000 posts before the program was announced, but I don't recall posts getting deleted for being off thread....but maybe I just missed it..


----------



## DanCali (Jul 11, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> You have forced me on two occasions to go back and reread documents and talk to Marriott reps to clarify issues that were inaccurate.  That is useful.



Thank you.


----------



## AwayWeGo (Jul 11, 2010)

*The Invisible Hand.*




David10225 said:


> I don't recall posts getting deleted for being off thread....but maybe I just missed it.


Hard to see the TUG-BBS entries after they've been deleted. 

( Just saying. )

However that may be, the Grand Pro has always got to back up the moderator, otherwise the moderator's authority is cut off at the knees.

By me, the moderators all do a fine job of keeping us unruly TUG-BBS participants in line, & I applaud them for the quality of their (volunteer) work.  

There are plenty of "anything goes" BBS web sites out there, & this 1 is way pleasanter than those, largely because of participants' willing adherence to the rules, plus some deftly applied course corrections from the moderator staff now & then.

Thanks, moderators.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia.​


----------



## laurac260 (Jul 11, 2010)

DanCali said:


> TUG does have an ignore feature - if you use it you won't see any of our posts...




ahhh yes, the ignore button.  I have  put it in place on one occasion since the points program rolled out.  

At this point I'd like to use the ignore button to ignore the points program itself!   

Seriously though, 20 days of bantering about the same info is getting to be overkill.  Like someone mentioned before, there has been NO new news since June 20th.  The other 3 million threads from day 2 till now have been, quite frankly, :deadhorse: At this point I'd like to see the points program moved to the points discussion section of TUG.  

Thanks Dave.  Perhaps we can get back to talking about timeshares now.


----------



## tombo (Jul 11, 2010)

Please read the following posts by Boca on a thread which main topic is to stay on topic and to limit debates. Is Boca limiting or creating debates?




ondeadline posed a post to dave, Boca had to answer for dave and give ondeadline his position rather than waiting for dave



BocaBum99 said:


> I view it like anything else.  Dave's the moderator, he makes the calls.  If you don't like it, there are other message boards with different moderating rules or you can sign up to be moderator.
> .


 
Then I posted to Dave, and again Boca had to rebutt and explain what dave said to me as though no one but Boca understood what Dave said. Boca let me explain my post to you. It was a truthful post laced with sarcasm. I understood what he said and unlike Oprah's audiences I really don't need to have things translated by you so I can understand.:



BocaBum99 said:


> I think what Dave is saying is that we can make an argument, but only make it once per thread and make sure it's relevant to the topic of the thread.  Seems reasonable to me.


 
Then I responded to Clemson Fan to which Boca had to answer and explain Dave' thread locking to me followed by ANOTHER time Boca said the same thing about how he feel about converting to points and playing the game on a thread designed to stop off topic debates.  



BocaBum99 said:


> Tombo,
> I think I am part of the problem.  I don't think that thread was closed exclusively because of you.  I think it was closed partly because of me as well for the reason you state.
> Actually, I am advocating that owners make their own decision and decide what they want to do based on what they read.  Owners who agree with you should not enroll into the program.  Owners who want to play the game the way I do, should consider doing it.


 
Then another post by Boca suggesting that Brian support Dave:



BocaBum99 said:


> I can go either way.  A total free for all, or a moderated approach. As long as I know what the rules are, I'll follow them.
> If I were Brian, I would support DaveM.  He has done the most I've seen to create the best Marriott forum on the internet.
> .


 
Then another confrontational post to ondeadlne which could easily be construed as argumentative. He challenges him to find someone better, and if ondeadline responds Boca will fire back. Hmmm, limit debates by creatng them?:



BocaBum99 said:


> I didn't say he was the ONLY person who made this a great forum. I said he did the MOST to make this the best forum.  Please point out a single other person who has done more?


 
Then a kind of demeaning response to Fletch basically treating him like a child and lecturing him on how message boards are run. Then in a backhanded way boca tells him to go to another forum if he doesn't like it here followed by more advice to brian to support Dave. Nice friendly post:



BocaBum99 said:


> Most professional message boards have some type of moderation that includes modifying or deleting posts.  TUG has always had moderation rules.  In fact, when Brian came on, they were significantly relaxed.
> Timeshare Forums was created to have more liberal posting rules in part due to moderation rules on TUG.  So, there are choices out there for people who want more or less freedom to post what they want.
> This forum is indeed the best Marriott forum on the internet and I give DaveM most of the credit.  I think we need to back off Dave and let him run it the way he wants.  He has earned the right to make that call.  I'll bet Brian supports that idea.




Boca please give us all a break. For goodness sake on a thread designed to limit debates, you have debated everyone who doesn't agree with you. You posted 6 or 7 threads berating me and telling me that I must not understand timesharing, I should sell since I don't know what I bought, that change happens and I should learn to accept it, etc, etc, etc. on a thread Friday between the time I left work Friday and when I arrived home. 

I bit my tongue long enough but just the posts on this thread where everyone is supposed to limit debates show everyone clearly where many unending debates start and continue., Boca (as he has done on MOST threads) stirs the pot, has to get the last word in, talks down to people he disagrees with like they are children, uneducated, or learning disabled, states the same points over and over again (Brian support Dave, join points to play the system like me, etc, etc),  Where are the Boca complaints? Tombo would not post near as many times if Tombo ddn't have to defend himself from posts by Boca. 

This is my third post on this whole thread where my name has been brought up many times. Boca has posted 8 times so far. Gosh perhaps even those who agree with Boca's posts will finally have to see the truth.


----------



## David10225 (Jul 11, 2010)

AwayWeGo said:


> Hard to see the TUG-BBS entries after they've been deleted.
> 
> ( Just saying. )




Sigh....that was meant to include people complaining about them....

Even here you get cut down...OK..I'm done with posting...back to read only mode...


----------



## SueDonJ (Jul 11, 2010)

(We're away this weekend, been to Niagara Falls and are now in Toronto.  Niagara Falls was much more impressive than I expected, and I'm thrilled the RedSox took two out of three to limp into the All Star Break.  Plus Marriott has treated us VERY well with upgrades on the cash stay at NF and the MR points stay here at the Toronto Ren, for those who keep track of those things.)

Um, I think Dave's TUG job is extremely difficult lately because Marriott, in its usual fashion, hasn't offered very much plainspeak here to help us figure things out.  One of the best things about TUG is that it's a relatively friendly, nice place to visit ... if a heavy moderating hand needs to be applied every once in a while, so be it.

Somebody mentioned instead of using a blanket approach, why not single out posters where individual instances of not-so-friendly posts happen?  And you know what?  Even as a recipient of one or two of those public reprimands that leave me embarrassed, I think a pointed, direct, private notice to an offender's TUG mailbox is not a bad thing.  Like I said, Dave has had to reign me in once or twice, but because of those times I'm never sure if he's referring to something I've done since in his blanket reprimands.

I'm not proud of having to be called out, believe me.  But certain personality traits don't just disappear with online communication.   I HATE to have my words misconstrued or ignored!  And I'm sure that is NO surprise to anybody who reads TUG on a regular basis.   

So, if anybody has been offended by my repeated posts to explain myself in enough ways to ensure that I'm understood with respect to this new Points system, I'm truly sorry.  I can't promise that I'll use less words as we all continue to figure this out, but I'll try very hard to use the nicest ones.  And Dave?  Can links to posts in the locked threads also be included where you've asked us to use them?


----------



## winger (Jul 11, 2010)

Fletch said:


> I personally think Dave needs a man hug to get him through this



From Winger's kids to DAVE - HUG HUG HUG


----------



## ondeadlin (Jul 11, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I have been sent a PM by the moderator a couple of weeks ago that if I imply censorship directly or indirectly I may be banned from further posting on TUG.



If that really happened, it's pretty darn disappointing and very, very unlike what TUG has historically been about.


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## jlf58 (Jul 11, 2010)

Tombo,

Now thats a great post 
remember, he deals with general managers ( the factious kind that MVCI doesn't have) so he must know more than us LOL 

Bottom line is I think only attacks and langauge should be deleted/modifed but Dave is the man here so either way I am fine with it. 



tombo said:


> Boca please give us all a break. For goodness sake on a thread designed to limit debates, you have debated everyone who doesn't agree with you. You posted 6 or 7 threads berating me and telling me that I must not understand timesharing, I should sell since I don't know what I bought, that change happens and I should learn to accept it, etc, etc, etc. on a thread Friday between the time I left work Friday and when I arrived home.
> 
> I bit my tongue long enough but just the posts on this thread where everyone is supposed to limit debates show everyone clearly where many unending debates start and continue., Boca (as he has done on MOST threads) stirs the pot, has to get the last word in, talks down to people he disagrees with like they are children, uneducated, or learning disabled, states the same points over and over again (Brian support Dave, join points to play the system like me, etc, etc),  Where are the Boca complaints? Tombo would not post near as many times if Tombo ddn't have to defend himself from posts by Boca.
> 
> This is my third post on this whole thread where my name has been brought up many times. Boca has posted 8 times so far. Gosh perhaps even those who agree with Boca's posts will finally have to see the truth.


----------



## dougp26364 (Jul 11, 2010)

iconnections said:


> :rofl:
> We need this to lighten up.



Yea, I've been there.


----------



## DanCali (Jul 11, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> If that really happened, it's pretty darn disappointing and very, very unlike what TUG has historically been about.



It was sent on June 28. I am not going to post the contents of that PM publicly but if my description of that PM was incorrect I am sure Dave will set the record straight...


----------



## DeniseM (Jul 11, 2010)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by DanCali View Post
> I have been sent a PM by the moderator a couple of weeks ago that if I imply censorship directly or indirectly I may be banned from further posting on TUG.





ondeadlin said:


> If that really happened, it's pretty darn disappointing and very, very unlike what TUG has historically been about.



I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'd just like to point out that complaining about moderating has always been a violation of the TUG rules:



> Honor changes entered by moderators
> You may not alter, edit, or delete any edits introduced into your message by a Moderator or Administrator. This is considered a serious offense and may result in loss of posting privileges.
> 
> In addition, do not enter complaints about moderation into BBS messages. Such posts will be considered off-topic and will be removed. Any such complaints or discussion should be communicated to the bbs staff directly via email or personal message.



Secondly - As to why Dave posted this, instead of dealing with individuals - It's a warning to those individuals so that they can't say they didn't know.  It's standard policy around here to post warnings (when possible) before action is taken.

3rdly - Any of you who have been around awhile know that Dave M has ALWAYS demonstrated the highest standards of ethical behavior on TUG.  He is clearly not trying to either defend or promote any particular position.  What he is trying to do is keep the Marriott forum a place where people can share info. in a respectful environment, without a million duplicate posts.

In a nutshell - I think some of you are reading too much into this warning.


----------



## jlf58 (Jul 11, 2010)

Denise,

I am not sure why but you scare me 





DeniseM said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'd just like to point out that complaining about moderating has always been a violation of the TUG rules:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ondeadlin (Jul 11, 2010)

Denise, there's a big difference between approaching things the way you just did, and (a) threatening to ban people for _implied_ criticism, and (b) yelling at the community - many of whom are happy to support TUG financially for years - with exclamation point-accented threatening posts, mostly because they disagree with you (IMO).

How we approach people often matters more than what we actually say.


----------



## RedDogSD (Jul 11, 2010)

I could care less about the moderation policies but I will say that the other TS board does not have lively discussion, arguments or anything interesting very often. So, I go there about once a week where I come to TUG daily. So, if the consequence of any policy results in a less lively and interesting discussion, that is a shame. Most of the interesting people will not come by very often. Boca, Sue, Doug, Perry, Tombo etc all have views on all different sides but at least it is interesting. There is only one person on the Marriott board who attacks everyone all of the time, but no one listens to that person any more.


----------



## DanCali (Jul 11, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'd just like to point out that complaining about moderating has always been a violation of the TUG rules:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Denise - I agree that one warning to one person by itself shouldn't be read too much into. 

But taking all the posts from several people that talk about deleting and/or closing quite a few posts and threads, while considering that the moderator has "close ties to people at Marriott" (in his own words) one could reach a different conclusion.

The reality is that in a heated debate there is a lot of room left for interpretation as to when someone is "out of line". And there is a lot of heated debate on this board since June 20.... A moderator has the discretion to delete any post almost at will in such circumstances under the excuse that someone is rude/impolite/repetitive/off topic etc. Closed thread fall to page 225 in the forum and deleted posts are never seen. As Alan said, it's hard to find the deleted posts to see which side of the debate they were on, but some people in this thread who are typically just readers and were not involved in the discussions have commented their thoughts on this issue.

The aforementioned comment I made re "censorship" regarding which Dave sent me that PM was in this post. I was reacting to a thread he closed down under the excuse that I quoted a previous post of mine verbatim. Yes, he was correct... it was easier to quote myself but I thought the topic of discussing the real costs of the points system merited a new thread. I don't see a reason to prevent people the benefit of discussing the costs of the system - but discretion was exercised and the original thread was shut down. I was persistent and opened a new thread which complied with TUG rules (aside from the censorship comment...). Others may have stopped posting altogether thus preventing that important discussion.


----------



## Dave M (Jul 11, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I have been sent a PM by the moderator a couple of weeks ago that if I imply censorship directly or indirectly I may be banned from further posting on TUG.


and....





> It was sent on June 28. I am not going to post the contents of that PM publicly but if my description of that PM was incorrect I am sure Dave will set the record straight...



Yes, I sent Dan a warning PM on June 28. However, he distorts the intent of that message. He had violated this part of the BBS Posting Rules on multiple occasions:





> ... do not enter complaints about moderation into BBS messages. Such posts will be considered off-topic and will be removed. Any such complaints or discussion should be communicated to the bbs staff directly via email or personal message.


Thus, I warned him that such discussion, including complaints of possible censorship, is out of order. Further, I did not warn him that he might be banned. I did warn him that he could expect to be suspended if he ignored the rule. A one or two week suspension is occasionally necessary (always approved by Brian Rogers) when people repeatedly ignore the Posting Rules.

(Obviously, I have been somewhat lenient with respect to the various accusations in this thread.)


----------



## TUGBrian (Jul 11, 2010)

Being a moderator here is certainly a thankless job.  no action taken by any moderator is ever 100% agreed upon by the masses.

you always upset someone while making someone else happy...tis the nature of the beast.

The discussion regarding the marriott points program has generated more threads in the past few weeks than anything else I can recall, its simply overwhelming for someone to keep up with everything.

Dave has, and always will have my support.  Hes and a handful of other volunteers are one of the main reasons TUG even exists in the first place.

If any of you feel that Dave is somehow "censoring" you using some underlying or devious motive...well....thats perhaps the most absurd thing ive heard in quite some time.

TUG moderators (at least the ones that spend any length of time here)...volunteer their time to help maintain the calm and peaceful nature of the forums and enforce the posting guidelines as they interpret them.  You would be sadly mistaken to think that any of them are "out to get you".

Quite frankly if you feel you are being constantly "moderated"....perhaps you should take some time to adjust your behavior here on the forums and it wouldnt happen as much.

The free exchange of ideas and discussion are what these forums are all about, however there are right...and wrong ways to go about doing that.

TUG guidelines are in place to ensure people follow the "right" ways (or at least TUG's interpretation of the right ways...and we've been doing it for awahile now)...because in the past (and currently for that matter)...people tend to feel they dont have to abide by the posting guidelines and or see how far they can bend the rules before someone steps in and takes action.

We dont have the ability to come to your house and smack you upside the head if you continue to break the rules...our only recourse is to "moderate" people...this starts with simple edits of posts that violate the posting guidelines...and if that isnt enough, entire posts get deleted as its simply not worth the time to go through and continually pick out snippets of posts from the same people over and over (you know who you are).

However, even as I finish typing this...im sure a large % of people will disagree with what ive said...and another % will agree with me.

Quite frankly I could hand out gold bricks on the corner and SOMEONE would complain...its just the nature of the beast.


----------



## Dave M (Jul 11, 2010)

For inquiring minds...

My "close ties" to a few people inside Marriott have been developed over the past ten years for only one purpose: to identify and confirm information that might be useful to those who post on this forum and to share that info here. 

Yes, I'm a happy Marriott owner - based on my historical experience in using my weeks - up until now. I'm reserving judgment as to whether I will continue to be a happy Marriott owner. 

Are those contacts and my knowledge of the Marriott system useful to posters on this forum? I think so. I'm not ashamed of my ownership or my contacts. But I'll stand tall against complaints that those two things might make me unfit to moderate this forum.


----------



## dioxide45 (Jul 11, 2010)

Dave M said:


> (Obviously, I have been somewhat lenient with respect to the various accusations in this thread.)



I commend you for this. This thread was something that needed to be discussed. Though, about 3/4th of the threads violate some type of TUG rule.


----------



## DanCali (Jul 11, 2010)

Dave M said:


> Yes, I sent Dan a warning PM on June 28. However, he distorts the intent of that message. He had violated this part of the BBS Posting Rules on multiple occasions



In the spirit of setting the record straight. I don't typically complain regarding moderators. At the time you sent that message I am pretty sure I had violated the stated policy just once (in the post linked in post #74 above) and not "multiple occasions". Also, until this current thread was opened, I have not complained publicly since then regarding moderators.


----------



## DeniseM (Jul 11, 2010)

Fletch said:


> Denise,
> 
> I am not sure why but you scare me



It's my "teacher voice."  :hysterical:


----------



## ace2000 (Jul 11, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> It's my "teacher voice." :hysterical:


 
Actually, I think Denise is the whole problem around here...

slyly trying to deflect the attention away from Dave...


----------



## DeniseM (Jul 11, 2010)

ace2000 said:


> Actually, I think Denise is the whole problem around here...
> 
> slyly trying to deflect the attention away from Dave...



Wow!  I feel so powerful!  I like it!  :rofl:


----------



## ace2000 (Jul 11, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Wow! I feel so powerful! I like it! :rofl:


 

Hey, what's the meaning of this... did I say something wrong???









:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:


----------



## DeniseM (Jul 11, 2010)

Folks, just so you know, Ace2000 will be taking a little vacation from TUG.


----------



## thunderbolt (Jul 11, 2010)

On many subjects, I look for Dave M's reply, because I regard him as the voice of reason. Keep up the good work Dave.
Doug


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## urple2 (Jul 11, 2010)

TUGBrian said:


> We dont have the ability to come to your house and smack you upside the head if you continue to break the rules...our only recourse is to "moderate" people...this starts with simple edits of posts that violate the posting guidelines...and if that isnt enough, entire posts get deleted as its simply not worth the time to go through and continually pick out snippets of posts from the same people over and over (you know who you are).  :hysterical:





Dave M said:


> For inquiring minds...
> 
> My "close ties" to a few people inside Marriott have been developed over the past ten years for only one purpose: to identify and confirm information that might be useful to those who post on this forum and to share that info here.



I certainly appreciate all this information. TUG is a great site. I appreciate it greatly!

(thanks denise for fixing my quotes...)


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## tombo (Jul 11, 2010)

ace2000 said:


> Hey, what's the meaning of this... did I say something wrong???
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It means they can't spell. You're banned would be correct. 

Denise as a teacher and a moderater I would have expected you to catch this.


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## jlf58 (Jul 11, 2010)

I think they should make you sell you Marriotts week and buy Disney and that would make it fair  



Dave M said:


> For inquiring minds...
> 
> My "close ties" to a few people inside Marriott have been developed over the past ten years for only one purpose: to identify and confirm information that might be useful to those who post on this forum and to share that info here.
> 
> ...


----------



## taffy19 (Jul 11, 2010)

Dave M said:


> For inquiring minds...
> 
> My "close ties" to a few people inside Marriott have been developed over the past ten years for only one purpose: to identify and confirm information that might be useful to those who post on this forum and to share that info here.
> 
> ...


Thank you Dave and all the volunteers who moderate the forums here.  Dave, your posts have been very much appreciated over the years by most of us. It's because of you that we found out about Marriott planning a brand new program several years ago so we knew that it was coming and now it is here, we can debate the pro and cons of the program.

Most people, outside of TUG, haven't even heard the news yet nor do they know what the consequences are and they may sign up blindly because they trust the Marriott.  One good thing is that we can back out of the program unless they take that away too. I hope not.  I still don't have the answer if our voting rights will get restored to what they were.  Nobody seems to know.  The resale department hadn't even heard of it when I asked the question there.


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## DeniseM (Jul 11, 2010)

tombo said:


> It means they can't spell. You're banned would be correct.
> 
> Denise as a teacher and a moderater I would have expected you to catch this.



*TOMBO!*  Are you *COMPLAINING* about my moderating????   :annoyed:


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## tombo (Jul 11, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> *TOMBO!*  Are you *COMPLAINING* about my moderating????   :annoyed:



No Mrs Denise. :ignore:


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## Latravel (Jul 11, 2010)

Dave M said:


> and....
> 
> Yes, I sent Dan a warning PM on June 28. However, he distorts the intent of that message. He had violated this part of the BBS Posting Rules on multiple occasions:Thus, I warned him that such discussion, including complaints of possible censorship, is out of order. Further, I did not warn him that he might be banned. I did warn him that he could expect to be suspended if he ignored the rule. A one or two week suspension is occasionally necessary (always approved by Brian Rogers) when people repeatedly ignore the Posting Rules.
> 
> (Obviously, I have been somewhat lenient with respect to the various accusations in this thread.)



Please don't be lenient.  The rules are the rules.  I think if people understood this point, they may change some of their behavior because there won't be a forum for their rants.


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## Carol C (Jul 11, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> I don't know.  I think it's a no-win for the moderator of a board such as this one.
> 
> Either leave it alone and it becomes a free for all.  Or, you delete/modify posts and feelings get hurt.
> 
> I view it like anything else.  Dave's the moderator, he makes the calls.  If you don't like it, there are other message boards with different moderating rules .



What are the rules like on TS4Ms? Dave M, you spend most of your time on that site, don't you? Are they also restricting debate of pros and cons of Marriott's new points system?


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## Carol C (Jul 11, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> It's a message board. If Tombo annoys people, they'll stop responding to him. That's how message boards work.
> 
> Message boards that start deciding what is "approved" conversation usually become very boring very fast. Especially when one person's opinion is apparently the only criteria for what is, and is not, allowed.



Well-stated!


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

Carol C said:


> What are the rules like on TS4Ms? Dave M, you spend most of your time on that site, don't you? Are they also restricting debate of pros and cons of Marriott's new points system?



No posts are deleted on TS4Ms unless it's spam.  Links are removed from posts that violate linkback rules.  You can pretty much say what you want.  However, if you start getting distasteful, the thread will be moved to another area.

There have been some extensive discussions on the moderator forum regarding posts and posters where people wanted to ban or delete posts and almost always free speech prevails.  It's interesting to watch.  Again, I believe it's up to the board management to create the type of board they want.

One of the things I do like about TUG is that it has been one of the more cordial forums in which I participate.  It's great to have at least one of them out there.


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## Carol C (Jul 11, 2010)

lovearuba said:


> Its amazes me that the moderator is a Marriott owner and has a close friend in a high place at Marriott.  Given that bias, I would say Dave does as good a job as anyone in that position would have.  If it is not possible to have a moderator that is a non owner and not affiliated with Marriott then Dave is the best man for the job.



Good idea to have a neutral moderator, one that's not well-placed with Marriott or for that matter a multiple-weeks Marriott owner. That sure would help eliminate moderator biases when there's no personal interest or gain at stake. Just a thought...in case there are volunteers waiting in the wings to moderate a TUG forum.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

tombo said:


> Please read the following posts by Boca on a thread which main topic is to stay on topic and to limit debates. Is Boca limiting or creating debates?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL.  You are selling past the close.  I already conceded that I was part of the problem.  Based on the length of your post, I'd say that you are, too.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

Fletch said:


> Tombo,
> 
> Now thats a great post
> remember, he deals with general managers ( the factious kind that MVCI doesn't have) so he must know more than us LOL
> ...



I just find it amusing that you didn't know that the general manager for the MVCI division was Stephen Weisz.

Ask him next time you see him if he thinks he can do most of the jobs in the organization.  He will laugh and say, "why do you ask that?   Nobody can do all the jobs."  Also, ask him if he views himself as the General Manager of the Vacation Ownership business.

You should take a look at this Harvard Business School Curriculum:  Harvard Business School General Management Program.  Do you think the Harvard Business School has a program for General Managers and the only jobs they qualify for has the words "general" and "manager" in the title?  They have a program for General Managers because a General Manager is the leader of a business.

For what it's worth, I think you know a lot about Marriott and I believe you are a really great sales guy.  That says a lot about you because timeshare salesmen are about the best salesmen in the world.  I just don't think you know a lot about how Big Companies actually work.


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## taffy19 (Jul 11, 2010)

I really appreciate the Marriott forum here and we only own one. It has to be even more valuable if you own more than one. I wished people would find the TUG forum before they go on timeshare presentations or in time to rescind the contract still. If enough people do, timeshare developers will have to find a better way to market their product as it is too expensive now. The point system is still going to be very expensive for the consumer (timeshare buyer).


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## DanCali (Jul 11, 2010)

Latravel said:


> Please don't be lenient.  The rules are the rules.  I think if people understood this point, they may change some of their behavior because there won't be a forum for their rants.



Yes... Let's boil the people who are against points in a hot steaming kettle of Beezle-Nut oil!! Then we can pretend like points never happened...


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## jlf58 (Jul 11, 2010)

Boca,

lesson #3, thanks but I think it's "talking" not selling 



BocaBum99 said:


> LOL.  You are selling past the close.  I already conceded that I was part of the problem.  Based on the length of your post, I'd say that you are, too.


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## taffy19 (Jul 11, 2010)

Carol C said:


> Good idea to have a neutral moderator, one that's not well-placed with Marriott or for that matter a multiple-weeks Marriott owner. That sure would help eliminate moderator biases when there's no personal interest or gain at stake. Just a thought...in case there are volunteers waiting in the wings to moderate a TUG forum.


I would say that Dave is pretty neutral.  He hasn't even decided yet if he will join or not and if he still likes the Marriott program after June 20.  The resorts are the same but the original plan, the way it was sold to most people, is not.  We can take it or leave it or will have to switch over sooner or later to the new program as the writing is on the wall unless you just want to occupy your unit at your home resort every year.  Then there is no change but it may get harder to get the week you want if you own a floating week.


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## DeniseM (Jul 11, 2010)

Carol C said:


> Good idea to have a neutral moderator, one that's not well-placed with Marriott or for that matter a multiple-weeks Marriott owner. That sure would help eliminate moderator biases when there's no personal interest or gain at stake. Just a thought...in case there are volunteers waiting in the wings to moderate a TUG forum.



Wow... I hope Dave his thicker skin than I do, because I would be both hurt and offended about now.    After Dave's years of dedicated service to TUG, I can't believe you are suggesting that he should be casually kicked to the curb.  

Fortunately, I can assure you that it won't happen.

I'm done here...


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## jlf58 (Jul 11, 2010)

Maybe you can just cut his pay in 1/2 ? 





DeniseM said:


> Wow... I hope Dave his thicker skin than I do, because I would be both hurt and offended about now.    After Dave's years of dedicated service to TUG, I can't believe you are suggesting that he should be casually kicked to the curb.
> 
> Fortunately, I can assure you that it won't happen.
> 
> I'm done here...


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## tombo (Jul 11, 2010)

My post was so lengthy because I wanted to address the numerous argumentative, demeaning, self agrandizing posts you made.  If you had posted less of those type posts , my response would have been shorter.In response you come back unchanged and post 2 more of the same type posts. You admit it is your fault, but finish by saying it is my fault too too. Get that last word in trying to start the fight. If you only knew how many PM's I got thanking me for pointing out your rude posts for all to see, you might be shocked.



BocaBum99 said:


> LOL.  You are selling past the close.  I already conceded that I was part of the problem.  Based on the length of your post, I'd say that you are, too.





Did you really feel it was necessary to demean and belittle Fletch again? 



BocaBum99 said:


> I just find it amusing that you didn't know that the general manager for the MVCI division was Stephen Weisz..



Amusing? Not amusing, rude. I have worked for large organizations and I didn't bother to memorize the names of home office people i didn't interact with. The fact that Fletch didn't know Stephen is probably because he never personally interacted with Stephen.



BocaBum99 said:


> I Ask him next time you see him if he thinks he can do most of the jobs in the organization.  He will laugh and say, "why do you ask that?   Nobody can do all the jobs."  Also, ask him if he views himself as the General Manager of the Vacation Ownership business.
> You should take a look at this Harvard Business School Curriculum:  Harvard Business School General Management Program.  Do you think the Harvard Business School has a program for General Managers and the only jobs they qualify for has the words "general" and "manager" in the title?  They have a program for General Managers because a General Manager is the leader of a business..



Let's stick the knife in and twist. You already made fun of his lack of knowledge of who Stephen is, now you make a dig about the next time he sees him knowing he never will. You also assume the role of Stephen and tell him what to ask Stephen and then inform him what Stephen would say. I would hope neither Stephen or you would actually be that pompous in real life because people who are that pompous might tote a butt whupping when talking to someone like that face to face. Follow that up with talking down to him about courses at Harvard and the meaning of titles like he was a child. I am sure that Fletch is appreciative of you schooling him because I am sure he thought that one person could do all jobs in a huge organization before you set him straight. Then you break the title general manager down into "general" and "manager" like he is a first grader. Could you not fit "See Spot Run" into your post to make it more demeaning? It is simply rude and unseemly no matter how you camoflauge your acerbic comments.

PS The leader of most large businesses are the Presidents, vice presidents, and/or the CEO if you want to be correct using titles, not the GM. Perhaps you missed class that day. To be correct Mr Weisz is President of Marriott Vacation Club International and would probably be offended to be called a GM. http://news.marriott.com/stephen-p-weisz.html




Finish it up with a backhanded compliment followed by your last word you always have to get in stating that he doesn't know a lot about how big businesses work. Cut him to the bone and hope he surrenders, or even better comes back at you so you can attempt to humiliate him even more. You are a very smart man from your posts, but being an intllectual bully is not an appropriate way to show everyone how intelligent and educated you are.



BocaBum99 said:


> I For what it's worth, I think you know a lot about Marriott and I believe you are a really great sales guy.  That says a lot about you because timeshare salesmen are about the best salesmen in the world.  I just don't think you know a lot about how Big Companies actually work.



I might not be the most popular person on TUG, I might debate too much, argue too much, and I absolutelly post too much about things I care about, but I never try to eviscerate someone, demean them, belittle them, or make them look like an idiot.I might disagree with someone's opinion but I try to do it respectfully. I don't have to leave them crying in the corner to feel good about myself.


You on the other hand aren't really happy unless you destroy your opponent. That might be a good strategy in business and sports, but it doesn't fit well in a friendly forum.


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## ondeadlin (Jul 11, 2010)

It does seem like some folks get a free pass, while others get special attention from the Mod.

As someone posted earlier, you can always find a TOS violation if you want to. But you have to want to ...


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

tombo said:


> My post was so lengthy because I wanted to address the numerous argumentative, demeaning, self agrandizing posts you made.  If you had posted less of those type posts , my response would have been shorter.In response you come back unchanged and post 2 more of the same type posts. You admit it is your fault, but finish by saying it is my fault too too. Get that last word in trying to start the fight. If you only knew how many PM's I got thanking me for pointing out your rude posts for all to see, you might be shocked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL.  I think you take these debates a bit too seriously.  By the way, what the saying about the pot and the kettle?

I think it will be better for both of us if I just put you on ignore.  It will save at least one of us from being banned.


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## brigechols (Jul 11, 2010)

I suggest locking this thread and passing out a few well deserved, hard earned  TUG time outs. In the meantime, I will just expand my Ignore list.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

This message is hidden because Fletch is on your ignore list.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 11, 2010)

I think most heated debates only for one reason, because people like to hear themselves talk. Many times what some people have to say really isn't that important. They just like to hear themselves talk and think people are listening.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I think most heated debates only for one reason, because people like to hear themselves talk. Many times what some people have to say really isn't that important. They just like to hear themselves talk and think people are listening.



That's true.  I also think that responses can be visceral reactions that impact a person's sensibilities.  Someone says something against a person's belief system and they are compelled to respond like scratching an itch.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

brigechols said:


> I suggest locking this thread and passing out a few well deserved, hard earned  TUG time outs. In the meantime, I will just expand my Ignore list.



I think your wish will be honored shortly.  If I am not here for a while, you'll know where I went.  LOL.


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## RedDogSD (Jul 11, 2010)

For the record, this thread was actually one of the more "on topic" threads I have seen, even if many rules were broken.


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## laurac260 (Jul 11, 2010)

actually Stephen Weisz's exact title is President, not General Manager.

...just sayin'


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> actually Stephen Weisz's exact title is President, not General Manager.
> 
> ...just sayin'



You are bad!


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