# If minimum wage goes up, will you change the way you tip?



## Passepartout (Feb 27, 2014)

This is a purely hypothetical question, of course, because it hasn't happened, and perhaps won't. 

But let's say that restaurant waitstaff suddenly get a more 'living wage' instead of the current minimum- or even less if meals are included.

Would you (A) continue to tip as you do now?
               (A-1) Do you consider tipping a responsibility because the cheapskate employer doesn't pay the help enough?
               (A-2) How about communal (on the counter) tip jars that theoretically get shared?

Would you (B) adjust your tip so as to genuinely reward exceptional service? 

Would you (C) not tip at all [it's their job, they're getting paid, if they want more let 'em get a better job]

How about maids? How much do you leave now? Daily? Or weekly? (in TS)

Thoughts?

Jim


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 27, 2014)

Certainly.  It would mean that what I am now leaving as tip would then be included in the base rate I am paying.  At that point, tipping the maid for service provided would be like tipping the employee at Oilchangers who changes my oil.   

Tips would then occur only for outstanding service.


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## geekette (Feb 27, 2014)

Won't change anything, like it hasn't changed over the past min wage hikes.  Maybe it will be passed along in food cost, and that's fine and expected and I'll tip how I normally do.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 27, 2014)

geekette said:


> Won't change anything, like it hasn't changed over the past min wage hikes.  Maybe it will be passed along in food cost, and that's fine and expected and I'll tip how I normally do.


Under current policy tip income is credited against the minimum wage, so the employer makes up the difference between tip income and minimum wage.

In the new $15/hour minimum wage laws that are gaining traction, my understanding is that the laws don't allow for the credit.  Thus employers would then be paying directly to employees the income that they are currently receiving via tip, plus whatever additional is required to reach the minimum wage.  Accordingly, employers will need to raise their rates to include the income that employees are currently receiving in tips.

With that change, for me tipping a housekeeper for making up the bed becomes the same as tipping the person who changes the oil in my car or the flight attendant on an airplane.


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## csxjohn (Feb 27, 2014)

My son in law recently visited Ireland and the bar tenders did not want to accept his tips.  They explained that they get good wages and should only be tipped for exceptional service.

He told them that they were giving exceptional service but they knew they weren't and only a few would accept his money.  He said he felt he was insulting them by offering them money.

I know in this country the servers do not get paid a living wage and depend on my tips for income and I oblige them.

In TSs I usually leave $10 if a one bedroom and $20 if it's a two bedroom if the room was in decent shape when we got there.

A resort I own has daily touch up maid service and when I let them in they get $5.

I know this isn't a lot of money but I'm sure it helps them out.


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## HatTrick (Feb 27, 2014)

I had the occasion to do some research on this subject last year. The figures presented below were correct in April, 2013. 

The current federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour. Some states (like California at $8.00) are higher, some (like Texas) are the same, and others (like Arkansas at $6.25) are lower.

The federal rate for tipped employees, however, is $2.13 per hour. (Apparently the National Restaurant Association lobbies quite hard to keep that rate where it is, even if the rate for those who don’t get tips goes up.)

Fortunately for tipped employees, most states allow more than $2.13, although in many cases it’s not much more:  Delaware, $2.23; Wisconsin, $2.33; Arkansas and Massachusetts, $2.63. 

In California, the $8.00 minimum wage applies to non-tipped and tipped employees alike.

In Nevada, tipped employees get $7.25 if the employer offers health insurance, $8.25 if not.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 27, 2014)

HatTrick said:


> I had the occasion to do some research on this subject last year. The figures presented below were correct in April, 2013.
> 
> The current federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour. Some states (like California at $8.00) are higher, some (like Texas) are the same, and others (like Arkansas at $6.25) are lower.
> 
> ...


As I indicated above, my understanding of the $15 minimum wage laws floating around in Washington, the employee keeps all tips and the employer must pay the minimum wage salary.


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## csxjohn (Feb 27, 2014)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> As I indicated above, my understanding of the $15 minimum wage laws floating around in Washington, the employee keeps all tips and the employer must pay the minimum wage salary.



That would change the way I tip at restaurants.  If the employer is suddenly paying 5 times what he did before, that cost is going to show up in the price of my meals and the server is doing OK without my help.


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## MommaBear (Feb 27, 2014)

csxjohn said:


> That would change the way I tip at restaurants.  If the employer is suddenly paying 5 times what he did before, that cost is going to show up in the price of my meals and the server is doing OK without my help.



I agree that restaurant prices would rise. I would still tip a bit, as $15 an hour still isn't great money.


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## rleigh (Feb 27, 2014)

I can't keep track of other people's wages. 

If menu prices go up, the tips will too.

For some reason when it comes to tipping waitstaff, the "accepted rule of thumb" doesn't understand the concept of percentages.

Way back when, standard tipping was 10%.  (15 was for extra special service.) That started to morph into 15 standard, 20 special. 10 became old school and it took the adults around me a few years to adjust to 15. (A few of them had even worked in industry themselves.) 

Lo and behold, in the last few years, 15 standard is morphing into 20.

A percentage is a percentage. When menu prices go up, so do the tips.

I'll always do 15-18% depending on service quality. 

As for jar tipping, I just don't get that. But I will throw something in if it's a very good experience.


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## Patri (Feb 27, 2014)

rleigh said:


> As for jar tipping, I just don't get that. But I will throw something in if it's a very good experience.



Some food places only have counter service, so not quite your own waitress/waiter. I know the employees who split those tips sure appreciate them. Depends on the number of people working that shift, but the money does add up. A young person's experience with this kind of job sure opened my eyes.


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## am1 (Feb 27, 2014)

Food prices will increase and 15%-%20 of those new prices will provide more tips. Service will go down as there will be less people working and getting a very good fixed wage.  

I believe that minimum wage should be a bare minimum wage and companies should reward employees with increases in their wage as their production increases.  

I do not think serving should be a career.  Just a way to get from one place to another.


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## ScoopKona (Feb 27, 2014)

am1 said:


> I do not think serving should be a career.  Just a way to get from one place to another.



I know servers in Las Vegas who make $100K per year. That's not a bad career if you ask me. For a lot of people, being a server is the best gig they can get. Now we get to decide what constitutes an acceptable career?


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## Passepartout (Feb 27, 2014)

[deleted by poster]


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## am1 (Feb 27, 2014)

ScoopLV said:


> I know servers in Las Vegas who make $100K per year. That's not a bad career if you ask me. For a lot of people, being a server is the best gig they can get. Now we get to decide what constitutes an acceptable career?



You are right it is now a career because the jobs can be very high paying.  How people would make a career out of it if it was not such a high paying job?  The pay should reflect that it is not a career but just a way to get from one place to another.


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 27, 2014)

I'm sorry --- if the server is making $15 per hour for every hour they are at work ... I will have to learn to cook at home better and more often.

A decent bottle of wine will make my at home evening more relaxing than being cranky about cold mashed potatoes, overcooked meat, tables so close my elbows touch my neighbor's all the while trying to get the wait-staff's attention due to fewer of them on the floor.

There is NOT enough profit except those ritzy $200+ per plate dining locales... food service's margins are just too tight... IMHO. Tables would be added, staff cut, timers with surcharges for lingering added and price increases/addons fee necessary.

And NO, I will not comment on if serving should be a career or if the minimum wage should be $15 per hour with full benefits.

I will comment that MONEY does not grow on trees for anyone. Costs will be passed on to EVERYONE.


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## geekette (Feb 27, 2014)

am1 said:


> Food prices will increase and 15%-%20 of those new prices will provide more tips. *Service will go down* as there will be less people working and getting a very good fixed wage.
> 
> I believe that minimum wage should be a bare minimum wage and companies should reward employees with increases in their wage as their production increases.
> 
> *I do not think serving should be a career*.  Just a way to get from one place to another.



There is no indication that service would go down.  I don't put less effort into my job when I get a raise.  why would someone else??

It's fine For You to not undertake serving as a career, but it's really not your place to decide what Should Be A Career for others.  I absolutely prefer career servers because they are Better!!!  Professionals that give a damn over 'this is just a job, who cares' teenager.

This is the land of the free with pursuit of happiness a right for all to enjoy.  Maybe there are those for whom serving fulfills the pursuit of happiness?  It's not for you to say "that shouldn't make you happy, you should be a lawyer" or librarian or whatever it is that YOU think people should do for a living.


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## SMHarman (Feb 27, 2014)

Yes, it would change the amount I tip.

If I compare the Europe to US model.

In Europe I get a menu and order a meal for EUR100.  At the end of the meal I get a bill for EUR100.  The server, and bus staff, and chef etc get a living wage and healthcare.

In the US I get a menu and order a $70 meal, add 10% sales tax and 20% tip and pay about $92 at the end.

These as the wage of the server goes up, the tip should go down and ultimately, if the server wage and health cover is at a living wage level the tip should be only for exceptional service and the cost of the staff falls to the restaurant owner.


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## ScoopKona (Feb 27, 2014)

vacationhopeful said:


> I'm sorry --- if the server is making $15 per hour for every hour they are at work ... I will have to learn to cook at home better and more often.
> 
> A decent bottle of wine will make my at home evening more relaxing than being cranky about cold mashed potatoes, overcooked meat, tables so close my elbows touch my neighbor's all the while trying to get the wait-staff's attention due to fewer of them on the floor.
> 
> ...



I'm in the restaurant industry. This post (not to pick on you) is chock full of the misconceptions that Americans (and to a lesser extent Canadians) have about the business.

1) Your server is probably averaging $15/hour or more. That's why they do it. The hours can be fairly flexible at the right place, which means that it's easier to juggle work and family. And even at a diner, the pay can be better than retail or similar.

2) You should learn to cook better and more often because home-cooked food is better for you. Restaurant cooks and chefs don't care if a dish is healthy. They want it to taste good so you keep coming back. That means lots of salt and fat in damned near anything. We salt our salads, for example. And then we load them with fattening croutons, bacon, heavy dressings and cheese. That's why they taste better.

3) If you're getting cold food, call over the restaurant manager. That is unacceptable even at the greasiest of greasy spoons.

4) As the check average increases, the profit margin DECREASES. The swanky $200 per plate restaurants need to sell a lot of wine to turn a profit. There is not much profit in fine dining because the raw materials cost so much, and they have to hire the best cooks and chefs in the business. People like me. I don't work cheap. The real money is made at chain restaurants and lower end restaurants.


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## rleigh (Feb 27, 2014)

rleigh said:


> [.......]
> As for jar tipping, I just don't get that. But I will throw something in if it's a very good experience.






Patri said:


> Some food places only have counter service, so not quite your own waitress/waiter.[.......]




Exactly. Tipping is (or was) supposed to be for when you're waited on. I think tip jars are ridiculous, insulting, and embarrassing. But they are here to stay.


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## am1 (Feb 27, 2014)

geekette said:


> There is no indication that service would go down.  I don't put less effort into my job when I get a raise.  why would someone else??



Less people working and more tables usually means lower service.  Also if I am paying more I expect service to be better or equal service to before would seem lower.


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## VegasBella (Feb 27, 2014)

No, won't change how I tip. Tipping is part of Vegas culture. Being a cheap tipper is like saying, "I'm a rude tourist."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SMHarman (Feb 27, 2014)

VegasBella said:


> No, won't change how I tip. Tipping is part of Vegas culture. Being a cheap tipper is like saying, "I'm a rude tourist."
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



But if, as is likely, paying a higher minimum wage to staff puts the cost of doing business up so now my hypothetical $70 meal is a $80 meal you will then pay another 10% tax on that so $88 and then tip 20% on that so $17 so now your $92.50 meal is a $105.60 meal.  Will you eat out less often or divert this money from another budget line item?


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## Passepartout (Feb 27, 2014)

It would be helpful if a restaurant bill will become like what is common in Europe, where the bill says "Service Included" (servicio incluido) so that any additional tip is for exceptional service, but the restauranteur is paying the waitstaff to serve his diners.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for this to happen.


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## easyrider (Feb 27, 2014)

I believe the new minimum wage for restaurant workers are directed at restaurants where tips are not part of the employee dealio. No one ever tips at McDonalds and places like this.

As for restaurant tips we use the sales tax doubled and round off to an even dollar and plan to keep on tipping this way.

Bill


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## VegasBella (Feb 27, 2014)

SMHarman, I don't tip based on the price of something. I tip a buck for coffee, $4-10 for valet, $10-20 for most meals at restaurants, $10-20 for housekeepers at home, $5 for motel/hotel maids per stay, 10-20 bucks for service people like plumbers and landscapers, etc etc etc.

Even if I did tip based on the bill, that would only change the price of restaurant meals and luckily for me an extra $20 a month wouldn't break my budget. If it did, I'd just go out to eat less often.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gnorth16 (Feb 27, 2014)

SMHarman said:


> But if, as is likely, paying a higher minimum wage to staff puts the cost of doing business up so now my hypothetical $70 meal is a $80 meal you will then pay another 10% tax on that so $88 and then tip 20% on that so $17 so now your $92.50 meal is a $105.60 meal.  Will you eat out less often or divert this money from another budget line item?



Good point.  I will eat out less or look to Groupon, Restaurant.com or local deals for restaurants that we might try.  I can't take the family out far a half decent meal for under $80 (one kids meal).  Add in the tax and tip, it's around $100.  You want something nice, Yikes!!!


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## gnorth16 (Feb 27, 2014)

VegasBella said:


> SMHarman, I don't tip based on the price of something. I tip a buck for coffee, $4-10 for valet, $10-20 for most meals at restaurants, $10-20 for housekeepers at home, $5 for motel/hotel maids per stay, 10-20 bucks for service people like plumbers and landscapers, etc etc etc.
> 
> Even if I did tip based on the bill, that would only change the price of restaurant meals and luckily for me an extra $20 a month wouldn't break my budget. If it did, I'd just go out to eat less often.
> 
> ...



Most people tip based on the bill.  When I served it was common that it was both taxes which was about 15%.  Now 15% is standard, 20% is good, 25% is exceptional.  Don't forget that the cost of everything goes up when minimum wage does as well.  You get dinged on the inflation of cost and tip.


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## Ron98GT (Feb 27, 2014)

*Tipped employees not subject to federal minimum wage*

Tipped employees, which includes restaurant workers and others that work for wages & tips, are not subject the the customary "federal minimum wage".
Instead, they have their own minimum wage, which is $2.13/hour.  When ever the customary non-tip minimum wage is increased, the tip minimum wage is not increased, that would have to specifically addressed. 

http://www.ehow.com/info_7761212_minimum-wage-restaurant-workers.html


So, for an 8 hour shift, the server would make $17.04 + any tips. So, for a 40 hour work week, a server would get $85.20 for the week, less withholding's. Ouch - 

Now, on top of all that, employers are cutting back on employee hours so that they don't have to pay them healthcare.   double ouch 


One good thing, some states, such as Nevada & California, have state minimum wages for tipped employees. 

http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm


Oh, to answer the question to this thread, "If minimum wage goes up, will you change the way you tip?": Absolutely, Unequivocally - NO!!!


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 27, 2014)

Ron98GT said:


> Tipped employees, which includes restaurant workers and others that work for wages & tips, are not subject the the customary "federal minimum wage".
> Instead, they have their own minimum wage, which is $2.13/hour.  When ever the customary non-tip minimum wage is increased, the tip minimum wage is not increased, that would have to specifically addressed.
> 
> http://www.ehow.com/info_7761212_minimum-wage-restaurant-workers.html
> ...


Would you continue to tip as you do, even if the situation were to change so that the tipped employees receive minimum wage, the same as any other employee,  and then retained all tip income on top of that?


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## am1 (Feb 27, 2014)

Even so the cost of meals will go up with the rise in minimum wage.  15%, %18, %20 of the meal will be a higher amount.  

Servers should not make much more than a fast food worker.  2-3 times at most on the high end.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 27, 2014)

am1 said:


> Even so the cost of meals will go up with the rise in minimum wage.  15%, %18, %20 of the meal will be a higher amount.
> 
> Servers should not make much more than a fast food worker.  2-3 times at most on the high end.



So if a fast food worker earns $15/hour (+ benefits), servers should be making $30/hr to $45/hr? At those rates, why would anyone bother with getting an advanced education?


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## ScoopKona (Feb 27, 2014)

am1 said:


> Servers should not make much more than a fast food worker.  2-3 times at most on the high end.




I'm sure glad you're not in charge. 

I think everyone should make as much money as their abilities can bring. Your comments about servers make it seem like you consider them a lower class of wage earner -- the servant class -- and are not entitled to a livable salary for some unknown reason.

That's how it reads on this computer, at least.



T_R_Oglodyte said:


> So if a fast food worker earns $15/hour (+ benefits), servers should be making $30/hr to $45/hr? *At those rates, why would anyone bother* with getting an advanced education?



Because an advanced education is the best insurance policy against a boring, hum-drum life? Also, since when is $30-45/hr a lot of money? That's only $60K at the low end for a 50-week work year.


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## Passepartout (Feb 27, 2014)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> So if a fast food worker earns $15/hour (+ benefits), servers should be making $30/hr to $45/hr? At those rates, why would anyone bother with getting an advanced education?



So they could afford to go out for a $150.00 meal at a Denney's? I hope I'm kidding here.


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## persia (Feb 27, 2014)

I am always so relieved when I get home to Australia and I don't have to worry about tipping.  Just pay people a living wage rather than under paying  them and expecting me to make up the difference.  It just a matter of respect.  The auto repair shop doesn't under pay the mechanic and expect me to tip him or her.  The whole notion is tipping is demeaning.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 27, 2014)

Hopefully this isn't seen as too political, but I simply don't see how increasing the minimum wage is going to help those in certain low level jobs. With increased minimum wage, prices go up to cover the additional costs. Those people that were just getting buy with $7.25 per hour are still scraping by because their new $10.10 barely covers the stuff they need to buy at the new higher prices.

The government seems to think that the companies will just absorb the higher profits in to their profit. Fat chance. Prices will rise, the customer pays for everything. They could make minimum wage $100 an hour and we would still be having the same discussion.


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## ScoopKona (Feb 27, 2014)

persia said:


> I am always so relieved when I get home to Australia and I don't have to worry about tipping.  Just pay people a living wage rather than under paying  them and expecting me to make up the difference.  It just a matter of respect.  The auto repair shop doesn't under pay the mechanic and expect me to tip him or her.  The whole notion is tipping is demeaning.



And yet, there are somewhere on the order of 100,000 illegal immigrants, all from the UK and Ireland, living in New York right now. Most of them work in the restaurant industry because the money is so good. (At least for the servers and bartenders -- the tipped positions.) 

The status quo allows the restaurant owner to hire as many servers and bartenders as he or she wants -- because none of them make anything on paper -- and let the customers pay their salary. I agree that your way is better. But that's why things are done this way in the United States. More profit for the restaurant owner, and more work for the servers/bartenders because there are more positions in the long run.

There are industry groups just SHOVELING money at the government to keep things the way they are.


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## Ken555 (Feb 27, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> The government seems to think that the companies will just absorb the higher profits in to their profit. Fat chance.




Is that really what the government has said?..


Sent from my iPad


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## cgeidl (Feb 27, 2014)

*Tip for service*

Seems to me a tip should be based on how much table service is given and
 how it is given. If you order  a steak and salad at two different restaurants where one price is twice the other should the wait staff get twice the tip? At present when we sit down it is my intention to tip 20% if excellent service is given. We usually eat as a couple and my pet peeve is when we order two meals and when delivered you are asked "who gets the...." I take 5. % off for that and tell the waiting staff they could gain a better tip if they knew who got what.


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## am1 (Feb 27, 2014)

2-3 times at most.  I consider $45 an hour to be a lot of money.  

If you think people should make as much money as their abilities allow then why have a minimum wage?

Yes the "unintended" consequences of raising minimum wage.  Inflation.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 27, 2014)

am1 said:


> 2-3 times at most.  I consider $45 an hour to be a lot of money.



Yep - my point exactly.  At a standard work year of 2080 hours per year, that equates to $90,000 per annum.  

So again, why bother with any kind of professional training to equip yourself to earn $25/hour ($50,000 per year), when you can pull in that amount or more as a server?


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## Ron98GT (Feb 27, 2014)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Would you continue to tip as you do, even if the situation were to change so that the tipped employees receive minimum wage, the same as any other employee,  and then retained all tip income on top of that?


Absolutely!


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## dioxide45 (Feb 27, 2014)

Ken555 said:


> Is that really what the government has said?..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad



Even if they didn't, how do they think this is the cure? While the workers are bringing in more money with the higher minimum wage, they are still paying more in new higher prices at places like fast food, restaurants and retail. The net is still the same.


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## theo (Feb 27, 2014)

Personally, I do not regard minimum wage (current or proposed) as being a viable *living* wage. I always overtip (except in instances of remarkably poor service) and I will continue to do, regardless of the sorry pittance known as "minimum wage", grateful to God above that I don't have to work in the "service" sector, attending to the needs and wants of the ungrateful and insensitive "entitled". YMMV.


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## SMHarman (Feb 27, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> Hopefully this isn't seen as too political, but I simply don't see how increasing the minimum wage is going to help those in certain low level jobs. With increased minimum wage, prices go up to cover the additional costs. Those people that were just getting buy with $7.25 per hour are still scraping by because their new $10.10 barely covers the stuff they need to buy at the new higher prices.
> 
> The government seems to think that the companies will just absorb the higher profits in to their profit. Fat chance. Prices will rise, the customer pays for everything. They could make minimum wage $100 an hour and we would still be having the same discussion.



I've seen the meme floating around that says you put minimum wage up to $15 and Walmart / Target have to increase the cost of a CD/DVD/BluRay by 1c to cover that.

The minimum wager now has an extra $3 in their pocket.  Inflation will not be rampant with this increase, income distribution would be better though.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 27, 2014)

Ron98GT said:


> > Originally Posted by T_R_Oglodyte View Post
> > Would you continue to tip as you do, even if the situation were to change so that the tipped employees receive minimum wage, the same as any other employee, and then retained all tip income on top of that?
> 
> 
> Absolutely!


Would you then tip the person who changes the oil in your car at the oil change place? Or the flight attendant when you get off the airplane?

If not, why not?  What would then be fundamentally different about the nature of the services provided so that you would tip servers but not the others?


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## Ron98GT (Feb 27, 2014)

am1 said:


> 2-3 times at most.  I consider $45 an hour to be a lot of money.
> 
> If you think people should make as much money as their abilities allow then why have a minimum wage?
> 
> Yes the "unintended" consequences of raising minimum wage.  Inflation.


Oh baloney! When Henry Ford decided to pay his workers a liveable wage, it didn't hurt his business or the economy. On the contrary, his workers bought Ford's and purchased other good's.  That's why Ford is considered the creator of the middle class: true trickle down economics.  Pay people a livable wage, create spendable income, and business will prosper. 

http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Henry-Ford-Created-A-Middle-Class-Through-His-Model-T-Brand&id=6369655

It's proven history, not an opinion or a theory.


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## VivianLynne (Feb 27, 2014)

I worked at a fast food chain while in HS - cashier and eventually, cook & store closer. I got no tips. I got just a quarter over minimum wage. 

But as far as tipping a person making $15 per hour (calling it a living wage), sorry .... they are making more than a person working at Home Depot or Target or phone call centers --- and thousands of other jobs.

And if that is the minimum wage for that job, I am sure a skilled and competent wait staff person, will command a higher wage.

Remember, many persons working jobs where tips provide a large majority of the income, are NOT REPORTING this income as honestly as they are required by the IRS. This allows them to qualify for assistance programs for food, heat, medical, housing, free lunch programs, transportation, college tuition, etc .....

This ripple effort COSTS all us citizens paying for these assistance programs --- but also, puts these worker in a position where an increase in reported income actually causes their standard of living to decrease. Why work harder? Why go to school? Why get a better job? And what is their retirement savings or contribution to even Social Security or Disability options? And what do their children learn? 

Remembered, occupations generally paid via a TIP from the customers included barbers, hair stylists, massage personal, exotic dancers, bartenders, valets, casino dealers, babysitters, etc....


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## ScoopKona (Feb 27, 2014)

SMHarman said:


> I've seen the meme floating around that says you put minimum wage up to $15 and Walmart / Target have to increase the cost of a CD/DVD/BluRay by 1c to cover that.
> 
> The minimum wager now has an extra $3 in their pocket.  Inflation will not be rampant with this increase, income distribution would be better though.



This is it, in a nutshell. The people at the bottom haven't had a meaningful wage increase in my lifetime. Their purchasing power has been slipping for decades. And most of the people who AREN'T on minimum wage are more concerned about the possible price increase on the dollar menu at the fast food joint.

It was once possible to provide for a family as a single wage earner, working in retail. Of course, this was back in the 1950s. But it could be done.


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## pedro47 (Feb 27, 2014)

No, I will tip based upon the server skills,  knowledge and service.  Probably,  10 to 15 percent indicated of the regular 18 to 20 percent.


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## gnorth16 (Feb 27, 2014)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Yep - my point exactly.  At a standard work year of 2080 hours per year, that equates to $90,000 per annum.
> 
> So again, why bother with any kind of professional training to equip yourself to earn $25/hour ($50,000 per year), when you can pull in that amount or more as a server?



I worked in restaurants for 10 years and rarely met someone who worked 40 hours per week at one place.  If you do, you work the afternoon filling sugars, peeling potatoes and mopping the floor - No tips AND it's usually one person. The best case is working split shits 11-2 and back at 5:30 to 10:30 five days per week which would be reserved for the most senior/best server, Or working lunch at one place and supper at another.

I made between $20-$25 an hour (5 hour shifts/6 days per week) and I got by and always had cash in my pocket.  Smelling like a restaurant, tired feet, no job security, no pension, dealing with some real $#%$#$'s, never having an evening or weekend off is why I pursued a higher education (at the same time).  I still eat where I used to work and three of the girls still work there.  Some of the hardest workers (and nicest people) I have ever met!!!


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## Ken555 (Feb 27, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> Even if they didn't, how do they think this is the cure? While the workers are bringing in more money with the higher minimum wage, they are still paying more in new higher prices at places like fast food, restaurants and retail. The net is still the same.




Thanks for admitting that your post was incorrect. Also, I didn't say anything about a cure. I'd really like to see opinions qualified as opinions, etc.

As for this issue, I'm not quite sure what to think. There is so much misinformation out there it's difficult to know the truth from the noise. I do know that I tend to tip 15-20% at restaurants and I expect good, if not superior service. At restaurants I frequent often I usually tip 20%, and the staff knows me and is quite good. At restaurants I don't go to often, or when I'm traveling, I base the tip on the quality of service, but can't remember the last time I left less than 15% - and anything less than 15% would mean that the staff did something egregious. 

I would prefer, as others have said, the system in place elsewhere. Restaurants should charge a fee for food AND service, not expecting tips. When I'm in Europe I usually round up the total and leave a little extra, but nothing like we do here. Sometimes I forget to leave anything at all since they don't expect it and when I pay in cash (especially at a pub after a drink or two...) I just pocket the change and leave, and then feel quite guilty when I realize I didn't leave anything extra. We would all be better off if tipping at restaurants no longer was common practice, as long as the staff provided a quality service and received a decent wage.

As for the minimum wage increase and how it affects restaurants...well, I'm not sure. I'm in California, so I know it's different than many other States, but I still tip 15-20% and that's common here. Even if the staff receives a higher hourly rate I doubt it would change how I tip.

The one part of restaurant charges I don't tip as high is on alcohol. When with a group, I just don't see why an expensive bar tab should mean as high, if not higher, tip than the meal when the work involved for the staff was so much less. Am I wrong in thinking this?


Sent from my iPad


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 27, 2014)

gnorth16 said:


> I worked in restaurants for 10 years and rarely met someone who worked 40 hours per week at one place.



I concur totally.  But it is totally relevant to compare hourly rates.

I might also add that working the professional services sector for over 25 years, it is rare to find a person making $90,000 salary who is putting in 2080 hours per year.  Most people at that level are putting in 3000 to 3500 hours per year, even if it doesn't appear on their time logs.

So in reality that $45/hour salary for a professional with a $90,000/yr salary becomes more like $30/hour in reality.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 27, 2014)

ScoopLV said:


> This is it, in a nutshell. The people at the bottom haven't had a meaningful wage increase in my lifetime. [/IMG]



I agree.  And I go back to basic supply and demand.  If there hasn't been a substantial increase in wages at the bottom of the pay scale that means that there is an oversupply of labor competing for those jobs, driving down the wages.  IMHO the best way to address that issue is to increase the demand for employees at that end of the pay scale so that the surplus turns into scarcity (which also conveniently increases the employment rate) in conjunction with taking other appropriate to reduce the size of that component of the workforce. 

When I look the current incentives laid before me as a independent business owner, I ask myself why would I ever be so stupid as to try to take on entry level employees to assist me with my work?  The few incentives I see to do so are totally overwhelmed by the problems I create for myself by adding employees.  When I need help, I address it using outside contractors, and all I care about is lowest cost that meets my quality expectations.  In a previous life I was a principal in a company that grew in seven years from six employees in one office to 150 employees in four offices.  During that time, when we faced with a labor shortage, hiring new more employees was always the last option we considered, simply because of the disincentives associated with adding more employees.

I care not one whit if a CAD technician quotes me $200 to do a job that I know will take 20 hours to do.  If he cuts his rate that low, that must mean that he has no other work and $200 is better than $0.  But as an independent contractor he is free to make that choice, and I would be doing myself and my clients a disservice by not taking advantage. Of course, if the labor conditions change such that there is a shortage of independent CAD techs, he might start quoting me $2000 to do that job.


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## persia (Feb 27, 2014)

The UK has a class system that embraces tipping.  Aussies don't.  There's a long history to that, Australia like America began it's modern existence as a place to dump criminals.  The less fortunate side of society.  There's a sense that all people are equal and tips don't fit that idea.  The whole concept of tipping makes me deeply uncomfortable.  You work for a living, I work for a living, just pay people a decent wage and be done with it.

There's a large American population in both the UK and Australia.   Who do you think watches the super bowl in those countries?  I have friends who are fourth generation Americans who became illegal immigrants to Norway.  The flow between Europe and America is two way nowadays.



ScoopLV said:


> And yet, there are somewhere on the order of 100,000 illegal immigrants, all from the UK and Ireland, living in New York right now. Most of them work in the restaurant industry because the money is so good. (At least for the servers and bartenders -- the tipped positions.)
> 
> The status quo allows the restaurant owner to hire as many servers and bartenders as he or she wants -- because none of them make anything on paper -- and let the customers pay their salary. I agree that your way is better. But that's why things are done this way in the United States. More profit for the restaurant owner, and more work for the servers/bartenders because there are more positions in the long run.
> 
> There are industry groups just SHOVELING money at the government to keep things the way they are.


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## isisdave (Feb 28, 2014)

There are two things about standard tipping practicws I don't follow.

I won't tip 3 times as much for a $35 bottle of wine as I would for a $12 one (getting hard to find those any more).  It costs no more and takes no more time to pour one than another. Same for expensive vs cheaper entrees.

But I'll tip about the same when I have a smaller meal, if I've lingered at the table longer than it takes to eat it. I've tied up the server's capital (his table) just as long as if I'd eaten more; he should get the same payment for that. He may have had to provide less service, but I've deprived him of the opportunity to serve someone else.

Also, I try to be aware of where the problem lies when service isn't good. If one server is having to handle too many tables, it's probably due to short-staffing, either due to no-show or management error. I won't ding the server for that, but I won't be back if it happens again. Same if the kitchen gets the order wrong.


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## ScoopKona (Feb 28, 2014)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I agree.  And I go back to basic supply and demand.  If there hasn't been a substantial increase in wages at the bottom of the pay scale that means that there is an oversupply of labor competing for those jobs, driving down the wages.  IMHO the best way to address that issue is to increase the demand for employees at that end of the pay scale so that the surplus turns into scarcity (which also conveniently increases the employment rate) in conjunction with taking other appropriate to reduce the size of that component of the workforce.



This isn't happening for several reasons. 

1) Despite Henry Ford's playbook, (and evidence that stores like Costco are outperforming their direct competitors in large part because they pay better), companies are incapable of looking past the bottom line. Intangibles like "employee satisfaction" don't enter into the equation.

2) Advocacy groups, working under the assumption that my first reason is the only thing keeping shareholders happy are shoveling money in the direction of K-Street in order to maintain the status quo.

3) For reasons I cannot fathom, the "bootstrapper crowd" believes that having a low-paying job is fitting punishment for not attending college, not pushing oneself to become a highly-paid professional, or at the very least not taking up a trade that pays reasonably well. Since apparently bootstrappers believe that everyone has the skills, intellect and opportunity to make something of themselves, those who do not deserve their low paying life of indentured debt servitude. It's a nice, Puritanical way of looking at things, I suppose.

What I don't hear ANYONE talking about is the fact that if the person behind the register isn't being paid enough to live on by WalMart/McDonald's/the-mom-and-pop then that person is going to turn to government assistance. So that means we are subsidizing these companies' decision not to pay their people enough to live on. I would much rather see assistance programs scaled back and wages increased. Either way, we're going to pay for it. I'd rather see fewer on public assistance. It's good for people's self esteem.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 28, 2014)

ScoopLV said:


> This isn't happening for several reasons.
> 
> 1) Despite Henry Ford's playbook, (and evidence that stores like Costco are outperforming their direct competitors in large part because they pay better), companies are incapable of looking past the bottom line. Intangibles like "employee satisfaction" don't enter into the equation.
> 
> ...


Nice straw arguments, Scoop.  Where did I ever mention anything about employee satisfaction???  Where did I ever insinuate that having a low paying job was punishment for not attending college??? I think my points have been totally mercenary.  Upthread you have been the one who raised the employee satisfaction in the your comment that "because an advanced education is the best insurance policy against a boring, hum-drum life?"  So if there is a point to be demolished here, it's your own point that you are attacking, not mine.

_"Insurance policy against a boring hum-drum life"_??? Personally, I find that to be a load of self-indulgent crap.  I went to college not so "I could be fulfilled" or "have a more meaningful job".  I went to college because I could make a better life for my family than I could going into a trade. I'm not self-absorbed. My internal radio is not tuned to WII-FM (What's In It - For Me). I watched my Dad come home from work for 20 years from a boring hum-drum job he hated, but he still appreciated the job because it put food on the table for his family. It wasn't a hum-drum life because he had a hum-drum job.  It was a good life, because he had a good family, and a hum-drum job was was a worthy price to pay for him to suport the family. Because the family was what was most important, not his personal satisfaction.  My mother worked as a maid in a motel for an extra $10/week so that we could have meat on the table for dinner six nights a week instead of four nights a week. And she never found it hum-drum or menial to be cleaning up the messes other people leave behind that they would never leave in their own homes, or throwing out the pornography men would leave behind in their rooms because they wouldn't take it with then when they went home. Because it helped advance the family, and if it did that it couldn't ever be hum-drum or meaningless.

In my mind, there is no such thing as a menial job.  All honest jobs carry value, because they support people.  Maybe that's a difference between you and me.  The only job that is not a valuable job is a job that steals from other people.   

*****

Personally, I think that Richard Nixon had the best solution when he  proposed the negative income tax. Then when someone's income comes up below the minimum amount the government sends the person a check to make up the difference between what they reported as income and what the identified minimum is.  Forget welfare, food stamps, government assistance and everything else.  Just guarantee everyone a basic minimum income and run it through the tax system instead of trying to back door it through myriad indirect laws and requirements.

Then there's no need to worry about what minimum wage is  or all kinds of other stuff.  We take from the rich and give to the poor to provide a baseline minimum income.  The lower income groups get money in their pockets that they can spend whatever way they want to to make their lives better as they see fit.


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## ScoopKona (Feb 28, 2014)

I don't know why you think you are being "attacked." I am commenting about why the minimum wage has been stuck (in regard to purchasing power) for these past few decades. Surely you can agree it is a mix of management practices and this oddball "they've got it coming" mentality society directs at low wage earners?



As for "boring, hum-drum life," I don't know about you but I have known more people who work an "angry 8" because they need the pay than people who work because they love their job. Furthermore, I'd hazard to guess that there are more people right now in this country who dread the start of their work week than who look forward to it.

Since so much of our adult lives is devoted to our careers, I can't imagine spending that much time doing something that I don't really enjoy. And that is why I attended school. (And also because I've always thought that education is a good thing in and of itself.) You can likely go to half the artisanal small businesses in North America and find someone who used to be a lawyer, broker or similar who is now baking bread or frosting cakes because they got sick of the rat race. It's not the labor that makes work "hum drum" -- the "hum drum" comes from the sense of being "stuck."


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 28, 2014)

ScoopLV said:


> Since so much of our adult lives is devoted to our careers, I can't imagine spending that much time doing something that I don't really enjoy. And that is why I attended school. (And also because I've always thought that education is a good thing in and of itself.) You can likely go to half the artisanal small businesses in North America and find someone who used to be a lawyer, broker or similar who is now baking bread or frosting cakes because they got sick of the rat race. It's not the labor that makes work "hum drum" -- the "hum drum" comes from the sense of being "stuck."


Actually I think it's a statement on how wealthy our country is that so many people can have the luxury of taking a lesser job just because they got sick of the job they had.  One hundred years ago the alternative to the job you had was usually no job at all.  

That's still the case in most of the world outside of our privileged first world lands. I think that's one reason why I enjoy traveling outside the US.  When I speak with the people in those areas, I get more of a sense that they like their job judy because it's a job, and that's better than the alternatives.


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## ScoopKona (Feb 28, 2014)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Actually I think it's a statement on how wealthy our country is that so many people can have the luxury of taking a lesser job just because they got sick of the job they had.  One hundred years ago the alternative to the job you had was usually no job at all.
> 
> That's still the case in most of the world outside of our privileged first world lands. I think that's one reason why I enjoy traveling outside the US.  When I speak with the people in those areas, I get more of a sense that they like their job judy because it's a job, and that's better than the alternatives.



It really depends on your yardstick, doesn't it? At least the baker makes bread which feeds people. The farmer grows/raises food that feeds people. The tailor clothes people. The brewer... well, where would we be without the brewer? Surely those are as noble (if not more) than the much higher-paid straw-man attorney who files a class action suit? I don't think that is "lesser" at all -- if the person doing the job can support the family without assistance, surely "enjoying one's work" is just as worthy as the paycheck. Hardly the "lesser job" if you ask me.

And as for the "privileged first world" -- why do you think so many of those people who aren't from the first world try to move there? Options. Nobody wants to feel "stuck." Some may cheerfully (or stoically) accept it because it's the best option they have.


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## ronparise (Feb 28, 2014)

ScoopLV said:


> I know servers in Las Vegas who make $100K per year. That's not a bad career if you ask me. For a lot of people, being a server is the best gig they can get. Now we get to decide what constitutes an acceptable career?



The best places to eat are the ones with a professional  wait staff, 

And of course it doesnt matter if waiting tables is a temporary gig or not...At least for the moment thats how the individual is supporting himself (herself) and often their family.

Consider this: 

If they cant make a living wage doing what they do, they will be at the local welfare office needing government benefits

And thats nothing but subsidizing McDonalds and Walmart with tax dollars


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 28, 2014)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> <snip>...
> Personally, I think that Richard Nixon had the best solution when he  proposed the negative income tax. Then when someone's income comes up below the minimum amount the government sends the person a check to make up the difference between what they reported as income and what the identified minimum is.  Forget welfare, food stamps, government assistance and everything else.  Just guarantee everyone a basic minimum income and run it through the tax system instead of trying to back door it through myriad indirect laws and requirements.
> 
> Then there's no need to worry about what minimum wage is  or all kinds of other stuff.  We take from the rich and give to the poor to provide a baseline minimum income.  The lower income groups get money in their pockets that they can spend whatever way they want to to make their lives better as they see fit.



Yee ... that has been around for YEARS and YEARS .... *called the EARNED INCOME TAX CREDIT *.... where a person with just 1 dependent receives a check for THOUSANDS of dollars they did NOT PAY INTO THE IRS .... I want you to understand, this is NOT A RETURN OF employer withheld income earned by the that TAXPAYER ... it is a negative income tax. Why do you THINK all those storefront chain tax prepares live in the lower income neighborhoods ... NOT for the $35 tax preparer fees, but the CASH ADVANCES off the EARNED INCOME TAX CREDIT (loans with high interest rates), CASHING FEES OF THOSE INCOME "REFUND" CHECKS which are mail/e-filed to the storefronts (and their banks).

But again, honest reporting of income MUST OCCUR ... there are MILLIONS of dollars going to all types of benefit programs to assist people who avoid reporting ALL/PART of their income; yet the people who are paid ONLY with reported income ARE truly being robbed.


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## geekette (Feb 28, 2014)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Yep - my point exactly.  At a standard work year of 2080 hours per year, that equates to $90,000 per annum.
> 
> So again, why bother with any kind of professional training to equip yourself to earn $25/hour ($50,000 per year), when you can pull in that amount or more as a server?



oh the many reasons = I've done food service, it's hard work, clothes smell, on the feet all the time, have to be nice to customers...  and the hours suck, depending ...

I like a nice clean office job vs physical labor with a customer service bent.


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## geekette (Feb 28, 2014)

theo said:


> Personally, I do not regard minimum wage (current or proposed) as being a viable *living* wage. I always overtip (except in instances of remarkably poor service) and I will continue to do, regardless of the sorry pittance known as "minimum wage", grateful to God above that I don't have to work in the "service" sector, attending to the needs and wants of the ungrateful and insensitive "entitled". YMMV.



Very Large Plus One.


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## geekette (Feb 28, 2014)

VivianLynne said:


> I worked at a fast food chain while in HS - cashier and eventually, cook & store closer. I got no tips. I got just a quarter over minimum wage.
> 
> But as far as tipping a person making $15 per hour (calling it a living wage), sorry .... they are making more than a person working at Home Depot or Target or phone call centers --- and thousands of other jobs.
> 
> ...


how dare you  ASSUME that MANY tipped persons cheat on their taxes.  Some people that aren't tipped individuals cheat on their taxes yet I see nothing here about what that costs us.

Some people have integrity, some don't.  What are you teaching your children??


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## SMHarman (Feb 28, 2014)

ScoopLV said:


> What I don't hear ANYONE talking about is the fact that if the person behind the register isn't being paid enough to live on by WalMart/McDonald's/the-mom-and-pop then that person is going to turn to government assistance. So that means we are subsidizing these companies' decision not to pay their people enough to live on. I would much rather see assistance programs scaled back and wages increased. Either way, we're going to pay for it. I'd rather see fewer on public assistance. It's good for people's self esteem.





T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Nice straw arguments, Scoop.



Not really a straw man here.  When McDonalds have (or had) a website for employees with advice on how to apply for benefits and SNAP and WalMart were giving out benefits applications along with application forms you can see why these companies lobby hard to keep minimum wage where it is and then have the government supplement that minimum wage.

CBO on What Really Happens When You Raise The Minimum Wage
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/02/18/3303201/cbo-minimum-wage/

Americans’ Views On Income Inequality 
http://thinkprogress.org/progress-report/gilded-age/

REPORT: American Workers Have Seen A ‘Lost Decade’ In Wage Growth
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/20...r-us-workers-underscores-need-for-wage-hikes/

Walmart 
A $10.10 Minimum Wage Would Make A DVD At Walmart Cost One Cent More
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/02/21/3317901/walmart-minimum-wage-prices/
Walmart’s Labor Practices Backfire
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/02/10/3271221/walmart-downgraded-understaffing/

McDonalds
McDonalds Tells Workers To Budget By Getting A Second Job And Turning Off Their Heat
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/07/15/2300321/mcdonalds-buget-low-wage/
McDonald’s Ditches Worker Advice Website Due To ‘Unwarranted Scrutiny’
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/12/26/3104431/mcdonalds-takes-advice-website/
Can McDonalds Make A Profit While Paying $15 An Hour?
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/20...onalds-make-a-profit-while-paying-15-an-hour/
Your Big Mac Would Only Cost $.68 More If McDonalds Doubled Its Pay
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/07/30/2378861/mcdonalds-wages-doubled/


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## SMHarman (Feb 28, 2014)

geekette said:


> how dare you  ASSUME that MANY tipped persons cheat on their taxes.  Some people that aren't tipped individuals cheat on their taxes yet I see nothing here about what that costs us.
> 
> Some people have integrity, some don't.  What are you teaching your children??



It's a reasonable assumption.  The IRS has semi official tables of what they expect a tipped employe to make.  It behoves the tipped employee and their tax accountant to report a number near that and near their peer group and pay taxes on that to keep the status quo.

And lets not get into the cases of tipped workers sueing their employers for stolen tips.
http://www.examiner.com/article/batali-settles-lawsuit-over-stealing-tips-to-tune-of-5-25-million
Were the employees also expected to pay tax on this 5.25m that never saw their pockets?

Better wages stops this happening as it is a lot harder to stiff someone out of a contractually driven number.


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## topmom101 (Feb 28, 2014)

Personally, I think that tipping a PERCENTAGE of the check is ridiculous because it does not require additional time or skill for a server to deliver a plate of food to a diner. Whether I order a $10 burger or a $60 steak should have no bearing on the kind of service I receive.  I think restaurants should charge a flat service fee as they do in Europe.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 28, 2014)

SMHarman said:


> Not really a straw man here.  ...



That's not the definition of a straw man. A straw man is when you impute to someone else an easily refutable argument that they didn't make, then proceed to knock down that straw man to advance your position.  

"Straw man" has nothing to do with the merits of the argument one way or the other. Straw man is a form of infallacy. From wikipedia:



> A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of the original topic of argument. To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.
> 
> The so called typical "attacking a straw man" implies an adversarial, polemic, or combative debate, and creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument, ("knock down a straw man,") instead of the original proposition.[3][4]


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 28, 2014)

geekette said:


> how dare you  ASSUME that MANY tipped persons cheat on their taxes.  Some people that aren't tipped individuals cheat on their taxes yet I see nothing here about what that costs us.
> 
> Some people have integrity, some don't.  What are you teaching your children??



Your right.Just like almost everyone reports as income the money they might receive for renting their timeshare.


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## geekette (Feb 28, 2014)

ScoopLV said:


> This isn't happening for several reasons.
> 
> 1) Despite Henry Ford's playbook, (and evidence that stores like Costco are outperforming their direct competitors in large part because they pay better), companies are incapable of looking past the bottom line. Intangibles like "employee satisfaction" don't enter into the equation.
> 
> ...



that's right, you and I are paying the lowest wage earners because their employers get away with not doing it.


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## Elan (Feb 28, 2014)

Let's not forget the effects of outsourcing many of the manufacturing jobs that used to be here.  The result is a surplus of low-skill labor for low-skill jobs.  What we save by buying cheap foreign-made goods we pay for in other ways.  In many ways, it's a zero sum game.


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## am1 (Feb 28, 2014)

With $15/hr minimum wage what happens to unemployment?  I believe it is better to have people working then receiving benefits.  The higher the minimum wage the more attractive working in the US becomes.  

An example I have heard before is even at todays minimum wage it is too high to have young people work at a mechanic shop and learn the trade.  That was an easy way to see if it is something they would like to continue doing long term.  

I would be happy to see minimum wage based off of unemployment rates and the goal of only having certain % of workers earning minimum wage.  

Henry Ford's system increased productivity and he could afford to pay higher wages and needed to do that to attract quality employees.  

I wish everyone the most success that they can achieve.  I think most people on here feel the same.  We just have different opinions on how to get there.


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## SMHarman (Feb 28, 2014)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Your right.Just like almost everyone reports as income the money they might receive for renting their timeshare.


However in that instance the calculation is often to zero.

Rental Income
Less MF
Less Advertising Cost
I'm sure a canny accountant could also throw in depreciation of the asset here.

Reportable income Less than Zero

Of course you shoud do the calc and report the zero but by not doing it you are hardly cheating on your taxes.


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 28, 2014)

Elan said:


> Let's not forget the effects of outsourcing many of the manufacturing jobs that used to be here.  The result is a surplus of low-skill labor for low-skill jobs.  What we save by buying cheap foreign-made goods we pay for in other ways.  In many ways, it's a zero sum game.



Elan,
That is the 1st level of job loss.

The next is already happening as our technical knowledge for the next round of manufacturing improves has been drained into the foreign manufacturers' engineering staffs and their colleges. 

The skills and products that the USA developed for the SPACE RACE then applied from transistors to circuit boards are NOW being developed by the local talent in faraway lands. This did not happen in the last 3 years - but as corporation more the manufacturing plants overseas.

Our Hippie and Green culture DID not get exported to many of these new and CHEAP manufacturing centers -- so we will just get the pollution via the air we breathe and the water in our oceans.

So those 'grunt' lower middle class jobs won't reappear until our technical base demands a new labor pool for some NEW GENSIS and better "mousetrap" product.

IMHO,


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## ScoopKona (Feb 28, 2014)

SMHarman said:


> It's a reasonable assumption.  The IRS has semi official tables of what they expect a tipped employe to make.




The IRS significantly raised those numbers last year. In addition, since most guest checks are paid with a credit card, the IRS knows exactly how much the server made in tips. (Unless the guest paid with a credit card and left cash as a tip.)

The "wink wink, nudge nudge" tax responsibilities of tipped positions are becoming significantly less "wink wink."


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## SMHarman (Feb 28, 2014)

am1 said:


> With $15/hr minimum wage what happens to unemployment?  I believe it is better to have people working then receiving benefits.  The higher the minimum wage the more attractive working in the US becomes.
> 
> An example I have heard before is even at todays minimum wage it is too high to have young people work at a mechanic shop and learn the trade.  That was an easy way to see if it is something they would like to continue doing long term.
> 
> ...


But at the current minimum wage there are many many people that are (or shuld be) recieving benefits and are getting EITC.  

It is not a clear delineation between unemployed and on benenfits and employed and off benefits with the current low minimum wage there is a level of grey in the middle which is employed and on benefits.  This means the employer can get away with paying less because the government is filling the gap.

On a targeted basis that makes sense, but usually as a direct credit back to the employer, employ a mechanics apprentice and the government reduces your payroll taxes or directly writes a check for that salary but at the moment there is this amorphous blob of benefits going back so WalMart and others can pay a cashier $8 an hour and then have the government top that up.  Now until we are all using self checkout WalMarts business model requires cashiers.  There should be no government subsidy for them having to hire cashers.


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## SMHarman (Feb 28, 2014)

ScoopLV said:


> The IRS significantly raised those numbers last year. In addition, since most guest checks are paid with a credit card, the IRS knows exactly how much the server made in tips. (Unless the guest paid with a credit card and left cash as a tip.)
> 
> The "wink wink, nudge nudge" tax responsibilities of tipped positions are becoming significantly less "wink wink."



The IRS knows what is paid by the customer, of course when the likes of Batali skim $5m out of that and don't pay it to the staff it is due to then there will clearly be a gap between the paid and the received.

Furthermore, tips are sliced and diced differently by different restaurants.  Hostess normally is salaried as is the shift manager (and this is where Batali was skimming tips to pay these staff), then tips are pooled and shares go to the wait staff, bussers, delivery staff, kitchen, bar etc.

Just because there was $20 on your check that Joe the server brought you does not put $20 in his pocket.


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## SmithOp (Feb 28, 2014)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Personally, I think that Richard Nixon had the best solution when he  proposed the negative income tax. Then when someone's income comes up below the minimum amount the government sends the person a check to make up the difference between what they reported as income and what the identified minimum is.  Forget welfare, food stamps, government assistance and everything else.  Just guarantee everyone a basic minimum income and run it through the tax system instead of trying to back door it through myriad indirect laws and requirements.



It's in the tax system, Earned Income Credit.  I like the way it's implemented because you need to have earned income (work) to qualify, it's not a handout.  

The problems I see as a tax preparer, for low income workers, is poor financial skills coupled with predatory lending practices.


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## ScoopKona (Feb 28, 2014)

ronparise said:


> Consider this:
> 
> If they cant make a living wage doing what they do, they will be at the local welfare office needing government benefits
> 
> And thats nothing but subsidizing McDonalds and Walmart with tax dollars




This is the part that I don't understand. Why aren't the two quoted sentences the main point driving the entire minimum wage debate? Government assistance programs are by their very nature bloated and inefficient because they're government managed. It seems to me that it should be a given that people need to support themselves (and family). If they cannot make the money through gainful employment, they will pick up the slack some other way -- assistance programs, moonlighting (legally or more illicit activities), whatever it takes.

[Following is the very definition of a _straw man_, played by a fictional "bootstrapper":]

"Well why don't they attend Harvard Business School and make something of themselves," is the cry of the bootstrapper. "I did it, so ANYONE should be able to do it. These people don't need our pity. They need an MBA and a job in financial securities." (Ridiculous hyperbole intentional -- the bootstrapper argument is always some variation of the above.)

Well, people don't need pity. They need enough to live on. If they're working an eight-hour day, that should be enough to put a roof over one's head, three decent meals a day, and put a little extra aside for savings and self improvement.

"WalMart register jockeys don't deserve a living," the puritancial bootstrapper will say. 

Well, deserve has nothing to do with it. They WILL turn to assistance programs, so we ARE subsidizing their income, much to Bentonville's delight.

[/straw-man off]

As for concerns about inflation, it's been shown over and over to not amount to much -- a few cents extra on a cheeseburger. Besides, a little inflation isn't a bad thing. It keep the economy going.


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## ScoopKona (Feb 28, 2014)

SMHarman said:


> The IRS knows what is paid by the customer, of course when the likes of Batali skim $5m out of that and don't pay it to the staff it is due to then there will clearly be a gap between the paid and the received.
> 
> Furthermore, tips are sliced and diced differently by different restaurants.  Hostess normally is salaried as is the shift manager (and this is where Batali was skimming tips to pay these staff), then tips are pooled and shares go to the wait staff, bussers, delivery staff, kitchen, bar etc.
> 
> Just because there was $20 on your check that Joe the server brought you does not put $20 in his pocket.



Absolutely. And the changes in IRS procedures last year are a direct result of cases like Batali's. (I'm amazed Batali hasn't been crucified in the court of public opinion over this.) Las Vegas is the pilot program for many of these IRS initiatives because so many people make so much money from tips.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 28, 2014)

vacationhopeful said:


> So those 'grunt' lower middle class jobs won't reappear until our technical base demands a new labor pool for some NEW GENSIS and better "mousetrap" product.
> 
> IMHO,



Another, IMHO.

My primary business right now is getting environmental permits for industries that provide those "grunt" lower middle class jobs. Factories, foundries, assembly plants, etc., that were the basis by which many people with a HS education earned a living wage, created opportunity for their kids to get even better jobs, moved into management positions if they had the talent, etc.

To say the environment for those facilities is hostile right now is putting it mildly.  What the public wants is jobs that create zero pollution.  That means what the public wants is no manufacturing, because you cannot manufacture anything without creating waste in some form or fashion.

I have some clients for whom the US is the last alternative they consider when locating a new manufacturing facility or doing an expansion.  And tha'ts not because of costs or wages.  In many cases the US is cost competitive.  

It's the fact that it can take six to nine months to get a permit.  And during that period of time they have to sit on their hands doing nothing.  They can't pour foundations.  They can't place purchase orders for equipment items, many of which might require six months to fabricate. They can't stockpile building materials so they can be ready to go as soon as the permit is issued (Those activities are all expressly prohibited the Clean Air Act until a permit is obtained.)

With those types of delays, they are looking at a minimum time of two years to be able to ship product from the new facility. When clients need the goods within nine months, the US simply is not a viable option for many of these types of facilities. Those project get built in locations where agencies allow permitting and construction to proceed in tandem, not in sequence.


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## geekette (Feb 28, 2014)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I concur totally.  But it is totally relevant to compare hourly rates.
> 
> I might also add that working the professional services sector for over 25 years, it is rare to find a person making $90,000 salary who is putting in 2080 hours per year.  Most people at that level are putting in 3000 to 3500 hours per year, even if it doesn't appear on their time logs.
> 
> So in reality that $45/hour salary for a professional with a $90,000/yr salary becomes more like $30/hour in reality.



I quite agree.  But this is why we are salaried so they aren't paying for the extra hours "at my normal rate."  Too bad, I'd probably clean up on shift differential, doing much of my work at night and wee morning hours.


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## Elan (Feb 28, 2014)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Another, IMHO.
> 
> My primary business right now is getting environmental permits for industries that provide those "grunt" lower middle class jobs. Factories, foundries, assembly plants, etc., that were the basis by which many people with a HS education earned a living wage, created opportunity for their kids to get even better jobs, moved into management positions if they had the talent, etc.
> 
> ...



  Yes, that's certainly part of the problem.  We shouldn't compromise our environmental standards, but we should expedite the approval process.

  There are many manufacturing jobs that are relatively "clean".  One example is electronics manufacturing.  Yet, large American companies (Apple, for instance) still opt to have their goods manufactured in Chinese sweat shops primarily because of low wages.  Obviously, they could easily afford to pay a living wage to domestic workers, they just choose not to.


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## ScoopKona (Feb 28, 2014)

Elan said:


> Obviously, they could easily afford to pay a living wage to domestic workers, they just choose not to.



On the flip side, the average consumer could easily buy "made in America" goods even though they cost a little more, they just choose not to.

Plenty of blame to spread around. Not that blame is going to fix anything.


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## Elan (Feb 28, 2014)

vacationhopeful said:


> So those 'grunt' lower middle class jobs won't reappear until our technical base demands a new labor pool for some NEW GENSIS and better "mousetrap" product.
> 
> IMHO,



  It won't happen until every third world country is exploited.  In the 70s it was Japan that we turned to for cheap goods.  In the 80s Taiwan, the 90s S Korea, and this century it's China, India, Malaysia, Vietnam, etc.


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## Elan (Feb 28, 2014)

ScoopLV said:


> On the flip side, the average consumer could easily buy "made in America" goods even though they cost a little more, they just choose not to.
> 
> Plenty of blame to spread around. Not that blame is going to fix anything.



  Agreed.  All of the parts are intertwined.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 28, 2014)

Elan said:


> There are many manufacturing jobs that are relatively "clean".  One example is electronics manufacturing.  Yet, large American companies (Apple, for instance) still opt to have their goods manufactured in Chinese sweat shops primarily because of low wages.  Obviously, they could easily afford to pay a living wage to domestic workers, they just choose not to.


It's a common misconception that electronics is a "clean" industry.  Electronics plants are by far the largest users of exotic and extremely toxic chemicals.  They are often among the most difficult companies to permit b because of the heavy toxic chemical use.  The actual mass quantities might be low, but that is more than compensated by the deadliness of many of the materials used.  There a reason why electronic waste is a huge global environmental health issue.  

Those nice clean looking electronics plants also do not provide a large number of entry level jobs for unskilled workers.  If you want to have manufacturing jobs that create work opportunities and upward mobility opportunities for unskilled industry, you need basic industries, like foundries, machining, food processing, etc., that don't demand a technical education.  

*******

I should also add that when I go out on the production floors for my basic industry clients, I see workforces that are very heavily minority.  When I go to electronics plants, not nearly so much. Squelching those basic industries has a big impact on population groups that have the highest unemployment rates.


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## Elan (Feb 28, 2014)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> It's a common misconception that electronics is a "clean" industry.  Electronics plants are by far the largest users of exotic and extremely toxic chemicals.  They are often among the most difficult companies to permit b because of the heavy toxic chemical use.  The actual mass quantities might be low, but that is more than compensated by the deadliness of many of the materials used.  There a reason why electronic waste is a huge global environmental health issue.
> 
> Those nice clean looking electronics plants also do not provide a large number of entry level jobs for unskilled workers.  If you want to have manufacturing jobs that create work opportunities and upward mobility opportunities for unskilled industry, you need basic industries, like foundries, machining, food processing, etc., that don't demand a technical education.
> 
> ...



  What types of "electronics plants"?  The type of jobs I cited are largely board level assembly, clean enough that I could do them in my home.  And the employees are almost exclusively unskilled or low-skilled labor.


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 28, 2014)

Elan said:


> What types of "electronics plants"?  ....



Like all those itty-bitty parts with plastic and wires with encase round things ... ceramics, lead soldier, tinny batteries, platinum, reducers, electronic uppers and too many connectors to count....

Even stamping out the circuit boards is a pollution generator ...


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## Elan (Feb 28, 2014)

vacationhopeful said:


> Like all those itty-bitty parts with plastic and wires with encase round things ... ceramics, lead soldier, tinny batteries, platinum, reducers, electronic uppers and too many connectors to count....
> 
> Even stamping out the circuit boards is a pollution generator ...



I didn't say all aspects are clean.

 I've worked at one of the world's largest  semiconductor manufacturers for many years.   Prior to outsourcing, there were far more  manufacturing jobs at our facility that were clean enough to do in my living room than there were jobs involving toxic chemicals.  If I had to guess a ratio, I'd say roughly 3 to 1.  Almost all of these jobs were filled by unskilled labor of all ethnicities.  Pay started at minimum wage and there was a shift differential.  

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 28, 2014)

Elan said:


> What types of "electronics plants"?  The type of jobs I cited are largely board level assembly, clean enough that I could do them in my home.  And the employees are almost exclusively unskilled or low-skilled labor.



All types of fabs.  Silane production. Silicon reactors. Assembly, maintenance and testing of electrical and electronic components.  PCB production.  Masking, etching, doping, stripping. Chemical milling.  Nanoplating.


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## ronparise (Feb 28, 2014)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Your right.Just like almost everyone reports as income the money they might receive for renting their timeshare.



Or not at all because there is no 1099 generated


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## Rose Pink (Mar 1, 2014)

Passepartout said:


> This is a purely hypothetical question, of course, because it hasn't happened, and perhaps won't.
> 
> But let's say that restaurant waitstaff suddenly get a more 'living wage' instead of the current minimum- or even less if meals are included.
> 
> ...



I usually tip 20% at sit down restaurants.  No tip at fast food drive-ins.  If I go into a fast food place and a tip jar is present, I may or may not dump in the change from the order or a dollar.

I tip hotel maids $5 a day.

If the minimum wage goes up to $10.10, I most likely will continue doing what I am currently doing.  If it went up to $15, I might cut back to 10-15%.  If it was a relatively decent $20, then I would not tip at all.  

Of course, changing habits is hard.  I might feel like a cheapskate if I cut back on tipping just because that's the way it has always been done.  It would be a major shift for Americans to change their tipping habits.  If the restaurants were to start adding a service fee (like they do for larger parties) on all checks, then it would be easier for patrons to cut back on tipping, knowing it was already included.

I find it irritating at all the people who need to be tipped.  I don't keep money at my door to tip the unexpected delivery of flowers, for example.  I don't expect (or want) the delivery person to stand at my door while I go find my purse.  So, delivery people don't get tipped at my house.  Except for the pizza deliverer.

I do not tip my mail carrier but my neighbor does.  I do not tip my lawn service company.  I do tip if I hire laborers through a landscape service, though.  I generally only give a dollar or two to the car valets--when they deliver my car not when I drop it off.

I tip my hairdresser and the day spa therapists (pedicures, massage therapy, facials) 20%.  I do not tip the receptionists--and they most likely are the ones with the lowest wages.

I was amazed when I was out of state at a military base that the grocery store bagger was tipped.  I was told tips are all they make.

It would be so much easier if we did away with the tipping culture and just paid people a living wage.  Culture change is difficult to do, however.   How do we change an entire culture?  It could start with eating establishments making the first move by charging a service fee (or simply increasing wages) and then having waitstaff refuse to accept cash tips.  Anyone see that happening?

------------------------------------------------

I do not understand the mindset that certain jobs or certain people deserve to be paid less than a living wage.  I worked in the healthcare industry.  Is the person who cleans the OR not worthy of respect and a living wage?  Sure, the surgeon has your life in his/her hands but so does the cleaning person.  Think about it.  I'm not saying to pay them as much as the surgeon (who has incurred major educational expense to get to that position) but the disparity in wages is immoral, IMO.

We need many jobs to make a society work.  If we were all CEOS, or doctors or bankers, who would do the other work of growing food, manufacturing, retail, service?  Are those jobs not needed?  Why does anyone think those jobs and the people who do them are somehow less?  

As to the mindset of "just get an education and a better job" I would ask where are the better jobs and who can afford the education these days?  My DD has a master's degree and the student loan debt to back it up.  Still, she is working the same job she had in high school (with more responsibilities but not much more in pay) because she cannot find a job that matches her education.  She is not lazy.  She has four jobs.  Still, she cannot afford to live on her own because almost all of her earnings go to pay down student debt and medical  bills.  She is in near constant misery and pain but still she soldiers on.  Why does she deserve less?  She works every bit as hard as the CEOs that make millions.  If the physical difficulty of a job counts, she works harder. If the customer interface means anything, she works harder.  She is intelligent, but she is not ruthless.  Maybe that is her downfall.  She is not willing to take advantage of others.  

Now, I am just getting angry.  I didn't start this post angry, but now I am.


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## Elan (Mar 1, 2014)

The whole tipping thing is weird, IMO.  I tip for the same services everyone else does, but mostly because it's the cultural norm.  I have no idea what type of income some of these service people generate.  

  For instance, I tip the gal that cuts my hair $5 (20%) every time, even though she's the owner and only employee of her salon, and it takes her all of about 20 minutes from the time I sit down until I'm done.  She's a great gal, but I certainly don't get exemplary service.  Based on what she charges me, she bills out at about $50/hr, so she'd gross $100K (+ tips) if she worked a 40 hour week.  Why do I tip her?


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## Icc5 (Mar 1, 2014)

*I tip but only because I can*

When I started my first job I made $2.23 per hour and was not allowed to accept tips (grocery bagger) while I was going to college.  I worked the hardest in my life and made the least.  
I also saw my son turn down Management at Starbucks because they don't get tips.  He made more because his tips were more then Mgmt. without tips.
Now, 42 years later I make more in retirement then when I worked and more then I made as a store Mgr.  I still don't understand how I tip but do it because I can afford it.  
I just wish tipping made some kind of sense.  
Bart


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