# Poll - Is TUG too negative?



## TUGBrian

So this recent post on our facebook page started an interesting "discussion"

https://www.facebook.com/TimeshareUsersGroup

While I firmly believe that if TUG isnt making folks that work for the Timeshare Industry unhappy, we probably arent doing a good job.

However I would like to see (or confirm) my opinion on the subject.

check out the comments on the thread about "worst timeshare sales presentations" and let me know your thoughts.


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## rhonda

Brian,

I don't have a Facebook account -- so I can't see any of the comments on the page you've linked above.  Might you post a snippet or paraphrase here so we can review for comment?
Thx!


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## TUGBrian

its essentially an individual (who works in the Timeshare Industry) who claims TUG does nothing but post negative comments about Timeshares to specifically drive down the resale prices...at some sort of profit to TUG.  His exact quote was "monetizing owners misery"

basically he was complaining that all TUG says is "developer sales are bad, timeshare salesmen are bad, HOAs are incompetent, etc etc" while never saying anything positive about Timeshares.

I personally consider every "I found TUG in time to rescind and buy resale" as an overwhelmingly positive success story, however being in the industry...he clearly does not.


It did however make me wonder if regular owners shared his opinion (I honestly could give two craps about how the industry views TUG)....my only concern is how owners view us =)

I firmly believe that anyone (owner, or looking to buy) should know every detail about ownership prior to making such a financial "investment".  noone will ever change that way of thinking for me, but perhaps im not expressing it in the best way and thus seemingly always negative?


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## TUGBrian

few of the choice comments from said individual:



> Does it not concern you that by constantly puking on timeshare that you're negatively affecting owners' resale values? Something to consider...





> ug, that's the problem. I'm been FB friends with your page for over a year, and so far, here's what I've learned: Developers are bad. Sales reps are bad. Timeshare has no resale value. Resale companies are bad. Finance companies are bad. HOA's are mismanaged. Owners are good. The problem with this thinking is that the whole industry is symbiotic i.e. if you don't have new sales, and if resale companies aren't selling, you have attrition and then skyrocketing maintenance fees. Voila...timeshare has no resale value. I'm only suggesting that you might want to consider putting out SOME positive info about the product because if I was considering timeshare, there's NO WAY that I would buy one (INCLUDING your $1.00 resale) after reading the consistently negative stuff on your page.





> You call it truth, I call it monetizing misery. Listen, if you weren't allegedly trying to help people sell their timeshares, your "education" angle would be a lot more palatable and believable. If, in fact, you ARE trying to assist people in their resale efforts, vomiting all over the product isn't doing anyone any favours...that's all I'm saying. What exactly do you think you've "educated" the public about? Take some time and review the body of posts from TUG from the last year...I can't recall a single post outlining ANY of the positive attributes of timeshare ownership. You may not be responsible for the crappy resale market (and you definitely aren't), but you're NOT helping your cause, and you're CERTAINLY not helping the cause of your members who are eagerly trying to sell.



then he started getting nasty/abrasive and tossing out insults...not that I was surprised.


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## rhonda

The most simply response:
_When I first joined TUG I had only one timeshare.  After a few years of steady participation on TUG I owned five different timeshare products._

For whatever reason, TUG seemed to increase my desire for Timeshare Ownership ... forming an addiction of sorts.  I think this addiction is supported by the Educational component as I've learned how to get the most use out of what I owned.


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## rickandcindy23

I see a lot of honesty on TUG from helpful folks who do love timeshare and don't appreciate the high prices developers charge.  

But I also know how many times people have said that developers are a good thing, because they build new timeshares, and if there were no developers, what timeshares would we buy on the resale market. 

It's the developers who devalue their own product by taking benefits away upon resale.  This hurts the developer purchaser because the loss of benefits devalues the product.  No one to blame but themselves: 

No Gold or Platinum benefits, not even Club Wyndham for resale Wyndham owners; no Staroptions from voluntary resorts will transfer in resale; no Travelshare with WorldMark to transfer; no parking privileges for Grand Peak 7 to resale buyers; no day use for resale buyers; No Destination Club conversion for resale buyers; no cruises for DVC resale buyers with their points; Shell has some benefit I don't care a bit for, which won't go to resale buyers.  The list goes on.  

<-------------------I love timeshare.  

The developers hate their own product.


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## TUGBrian

tis one of my bigger arguments as well.

on one hand, if TUG really had an impact on the market at all, developer sales woudl dry up overnight vs the 6 or so BILLION dollars a year they seem to do.

on the other, if there was actual resale value in the product, developers would be more than happy to take back all weeks to resell again to a willing owner. 

It doesnt matter a hill of beans whats said on TUG (IMO) until the fact that there are far more people looking to sell resale, than those looking to buy resale.


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## Passepartout

This one timeshare industry shill absolutely DOES NOT speak for the majority of timeshare owners. Add me to the list of people who was not a timeshare owner when I found TUG. I specifically joined TUG to educate myself BEFORE making my first TS purchase, and have gone on to make a total of 3. 

Does this sound like someone who says nothing positive about the attributes of timeshares? I don't think so.

That we (and I am certainly one of the more vocal) shout from the rooftops to 'BUY RESALE, SAVE THOUSANDS' is not bashing timeshare as a concept at all. What it's saying though is that the developers need to find a way to add value to the resale product. To use an automotive analogy, there HAS to be a trade-in value to timeshares to buoy up the prices on both ends of the ownership. You wouldn't go out and buy an Escalade, if the minute you drive it off the lot, it is worth exactly what a used '65 VW Bug is worth. ZERO. 

If developers want to see some equalization in prices, and a whole lot more support from TUGgers, buy back deeds from owners at, say, half of what people paid the original developer. Developers used the ruse of 'you can pass your ownership to your heirs' as a sales gimmick. Only they, through keeping BOD's and HOA's loaded with shills, wrote into the bylaws that MFs increase to a level that the timeshare is no longer an 'asset' to be passed to heirs, but a liability. An expense that can't be sold, because it has far more cost than value.

No, we don't bash timeshares, but we abhor the practices of the developers who lure the unwary into a sale they can't afford. Then they have the gall to rag on us for offering buyers the education that should have come from the salesman, rather than a good hoodwinking.

Jim Ricks


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## hypnotiq

Passepartout said:


> Add me to the list of people who was not a timeshare owner when I found TUG. I specifically joined TUG to educate myself BEFORE making my first TS purchase



This sums me up as well. I went on a tour @ PBSB when in Mexico. Afterwards, the concept interested me, so I did research and found TUG.
Lurked for a year+ before deciding to pull the trigger and try out the waters. Found the system I liked best and have been happy with the knowledge I've learned here in the process.


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## rickandcindy23

I think that is Michael Coley's story as well.  Maybe BocaBum99's story too.  Went to a timeshare presentation and became intrigued with the resale vs. developer price.


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## rickandcindy23

Ironically, when the developer devalues resale, *they hurt the original buyer who paid the high price to own. Their product is worth nearly $0*  No wonder we are cynical of the developer purchase.


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## DaveNV

I'm one more who didn't own before finding TUG.  I've since purchased six, (all resale), and sold four, (all via TUG), leaving me with the two I currently enjoy owning.  I had *ALWAYS* avoided anything related to timeshares, because I didn't understand how it all worked.  All I'd ever seen was the Developer pitchmen trying to get me to spend thousands on a "vacation property" I wasn't interested in owning. 

TUG came along, opened my eyes, helped me to see how I could dip my toe in the timeshare ownership waters without losing my foot, and I've enjoyed every minute of it since.  I have learned a TON here, and I can unequivocally state that if I hadn't found TUG, I'd never have bought anything.

Your FB guy is full of sour grapes because TUG is causing a dent in his wallet.

Dave


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## SMHarman

BMWguynw said:


> I'm one more who didn't own before finding TUG.  I've since purchased six, (all resale), and sold four, (all via TUG), leaving me with the two I currently enjoy owning.  I had *ALWAYS* avoided anything related to timeshares, because I didn't understand how it all worked.  All I'd ever seen was the Developer pitchmen trying to get me to spend thousands on a "vacation property" I wasn't interested in owning.
> 
> TUG came along, opened my eyes, helped me to see how I could dip my toe in the timeshare ownership waters without losing my foot, and I've enjoyed every minute of it since.  I have learned a TON here, and I can unequivocally state that if I hadn't found TUG, I'd never have bought anything.
> 
> Your FB guy is full of sour grapes because TUG is causing a dent in his wallet.
> 
> Dave


Exactly, and I jumped in rather than dipping a toe in spending 5 figures on the first resale unit at a resort where the developer has managed to not crucify the resale product as it still has value.
HOA keeping MF at the lower end of the SVO collection, mandatory SO etc.
The math of buying developer never really made much sense to me, even with the inflation proofing and so on it basically felt like a massive prepayment of future vacation.
I was directed to TUG by a family friend who owns at WKORV and learned then bought.
IMHO it would be great if SVO made the entire resale transactions mandatory.  It would give all current owners an equal product (would help their bottom line with all those extra SVO fees) and mean that resale values would increase.  That would hurt me (thinking of buying more), but this is from the altruistic place that is the developers hurt resale, not the new buyers.
Taking the escalade analogy further, the escalade can be taken back to the dealer, they can look at a price in the blue book and give you a trade in or a buy out.  Does not happen for a timeshare.
Actually if you could turn the timeshare resale market into something like the used car market that would be great.  You would have CPO timeshares coming from the developer, you would have car max style warehouses of no haggle blue book priced, you would have other dealers and you would have individual sales.  You would also have the different firms offering competition.  I'll buy you out of that Marriott TS if you want to get into this Westin StJohn Timeshare.


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## slip

Another non-owner until after I found a TUG. I heard about timeshares in the
Early '80's but couldn't afford anything then and could never see how it made
Financial sense. Fast forward 30 years, the kids are gone and we wanted to 
Travel more. Looked into timeshares and found TUG and resales. Researched the
Best fit and after a lot of questions and help from TUG members, I've been
Happy ever since. 

People don't like to hear the truth sometimes and they will do anything they
Can to downplay it.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

If I hadn't fount TUG I probably would be puking on timeshares every time I had the opportunity.

Because I found TUG I've bought more than I would have otherwise, sold others I bought, and have changed the mind of several others who were really sour on timeshares.  It's just my little corner of the world, but in the corner I've improved the image of timeshare.  

As to our developer friend, it's certainly in his interest to not have people coming into a sales presentation being more open to the benefits of timesharing.  That provides a better base on which he can try to sell his product than to have to spend most of the sales presentation trying to erase the negative preconceptions of timesharing.


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## Rascalsmom

I found TUG after purchasing a crummy Mexican timeshare.  TUGgers taught me that it really was crummy, but not completely unusable.   I'll be enjoying a week at DVC next month on an RCI trade for a couple of those weeks.  If I hadn't found TUG, I would have gotten very little value for that purchase, because it's at an all-inclusive resort, where it is very expensive to take my whole family.

TUG posts taught me how the systems work.   It became a fun hobby.  I picked up 3 weeks at smart prices, and when I realized I now had more vacation than I could use, gave one away to an appreciative TUGger.  He was nice enough to let me know he's already booked Sedona and Hawaii from the one freebie week I gave him.  What's not to like?

All I know is that the more I read TUG, the farther my vacation ownership stretches....


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## falmouth3

People on TUG are definitely not anti-timeshare.  We love our timeshare vacations and we exchange great information on how to maximize our usage.  We also share tips on how to plan a fantastic vacation.  No complaints here.


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## shoeie

I think this is preposterous!  I haven't even been here that long, and in my short time I've found that the vast majority of the folks here really enjoy owning their timeshares (myself included).  Some bought retail, some bought resale, some have some of everything, but this place has been a wealth of information.

W and I almost bought from a developer about 10 years ago in Virginia Beach.  We actually suffered through the presentation (all for an absurd $50 gift certificate to a restaurant), were totally sold at taking our kids (that we didn't have) on all these great vacations, but we said we wanted to think it over.  The salesman actually wrote down his cell number and the final price we agreed to.  A few hours later I went back down to the sales office to sign the contracts, and they said they made a mistake and the price was actually $3K more!  So, luckily I didn't need to rescind, because I stomped out right then.  :hysterical:

But the concept to TS intrigued me.  

Fast forward, a few years ago I purchased 2 MVC weeks resale and converted to the DC program (before I ever found TUG), by doing my own research about how much value there was in resale.  But I've learned more in a few weeks here than I learned in a year of doing my own research prior to purchasing my MVC!  

Knowledge is power.  Those that don't want you to have it only have their own self interest in mind.


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## alwysonvac

I think the OP was talking about the TUG Facebook page (not the TUG forums).

JMHO....I visited the TUG facebook site for the first time today. I can see how someone who *only* visits the TUG facebook page might view it as negative. However the TUG facebook page only provides a limited view of everything we discuss on the various forums. Since this guy works in the industry I won't take his comments to heart 


For those who don't have facebook access, here are the posts on the TUG facebook page from August & Sept ...

6 hours ago.Worst Timeshare Sales Presentation you have ever been to? http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196456

September 21.TUG saves 70+ Timeshare owners, roughly $700,000 dollars...and thats just those who post on the forums and tell us! http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196108

September 19.New owner finds TUG in time to cancel new Timeshare Purchase and save $32,000! http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196001

September 15.Bedbugs at your Timeshare? Bet all of you check your mattresses after reading this thread! http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195478

September 13.Is Exchanging your Timeshare for a Cruise worth it? It Depends! http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195764

September 11.Another member finds TUG in time to Cancel Timeshare purchase and save $30,000! http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190633

September 9.Lowball Timeshare Rental Offers? Insulting or not? http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195382

September 6.New Timeshare Advice Article: What is a Timeshare Shill? http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare_shills.html

September 4.Two TUGGERS save tens of thousands of dollars in a single post by finding TUG in time to buy resale! http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194688

September 2.Discussion and list of Timeshare Resorts that are geared towards children! http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194960

August 30.TUG lists the most rented and sold Timeshares each year since 2008! http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare_sales_rental_history.html

August 27.Westgate Timeshare Cancellation Nightmare, always know your rights - never believe what a salesman tells you without confirming! http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194569

August 26.Timeshare Resale Buyers Checklist! A must read article for all those considering buying a Resale Timeshare! http://www.tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare_purchase_checklist.html

August 23.New Timeshare owner finds TUG in time to cancel purchase and save $22,500! http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193914

August 21.TUG Member Testimonials! Helping Timeshare owners for nearly 20 years...sometimes they take some time and give their thanks back! http://www.tug2.net/comments.html

August 19.How do you rank or "Tier" Timeshare Resorts? http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194148

August 16.TUG Saves new owner $11,000 on new Timeshare purchase...the resale market strikes again! http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193176

August 13.Washington State goes after large Timeshare PCC/Viking Ship operation: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193384

August 11.VA Atty General finally warns residents about Timeshare Resale scams, better late than never! http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193732

August 6.TUGGER saves $18,000 on new Wyndham Timeshare purchase by finding TUG in time to discover the resale market! http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193201

August 3.Florida Cracking down on Timeshare Resale Scams! http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193365

August 1.Folks need to know about the resale market BEFORE going to Timeshare sales presentations so they arent taken by lies like this! http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192811


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## Sandy

*I found TUG long ago*

We bought our first timeshare in 1980, so we are "old heads." Nobody had ever heard of timesharing.  But we were lucky in the scheme of things.  We bought on a trip to the Bahamas, a regular, converted apartment, and joined RCI.  We began to trade. 

Our first trade was to HHI, next to the Outer Banks of NC.  While in the Outer banks, we bought a "blue week." Five hundred dollars or so.  Some of you may recall, those off season weeks that nobody wanted, but the developers had to sell.  The price was right, and we found out how to deposit early and get some amazing trades. 

We were hooked.  So far, we had not spent much money, although the first purchase was on a payment plan. 

Over the years, we found TUG, learned more, and bought more.  Sold/gave away some units to friends to get them into the game.  Still not much money spent.  We were lucky.

By joining and reading TUG, we learned about the first South African timeshare deals and added to that blue week and our original Bahama unit.  Never even went to the Bahama unit.  Wow, what an insight on supply and demand. With that little South African "hut" we were able to trade into fabulous gold crown RCI resorts on the cheap.  Now we were not just lucky, we were educated.

Next, also through TUG, we learned about the cheap points available in Australia (anyone remember that deal?). We jumped onto this and learned about RCI point system.

When we were in Hawaii, we saw a resale office and paid the most we EVER paid for a week, $6500.  Still, we were so far ahead of many others and for use timesharing never had a bad name. Other deals came along, and we benefited many times.

However, we fully realize that much of the bad rap on timesharing comes from folks who spend thousands of $$ they maybe cannot afford, to get monthly payments for years, and who never learn how to travel, enjoy, and exchange what they have. Heck, forget exchanging, we know people who never even USE their timeshares.

Our kids, upon going to a hotel for the first time after vacationing ONLY in timeshares, quipped,  "Where are OUR rooms? Where is the kitchen? Where is the washer/dryer?"  Spoiled? I don't think so.  They just got used to travelling as timesharing kids at a young age. 

Fast forward today. Everybody has heard about timesharing. But most who have heard have that negative opinion.  IMHO TUG has done a fabulous service, and many if not most Tuggers have multiple timesharing units.


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## ronparise

Not only is TUG not negative, I find it positively positive

This is a community of timeshare owners. We like this stuff and we use it and we encourage others to join with us...(just dont pay retail prices)


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## weasey31

What a fabulous place TUG has been to us. I have found myself to  be addicted to this site and have educated myself with some much real fact finding information about TS. 
Thanks to all the members that have helped me learn the truth about real vacationing and sharing your stories.
You do not need to pay $thousands of dollars under a high pressure sale when you can find the same thing on ebay!!!
Going to a TS presentation?? Stick with your gut and say Nooooooo and just walk away with the gifts.  You will feel good after it is all over instead of buyer's remorse settling in after the dust settles.


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## Luvtoride

*Yet Another reason NOT to be on Facebook*

I'm often chided by family and friends because I'm NOT on Facebook.  I have many reasons why I won't "join" FB, but  here is yet another one.  Apparently the FB "view" of TUG does not contain much of the GREAT and positive information and educational materials that TUG and the BBS contains.  Facebook seems to be like a Reader's Digest (no criticism of RD intended) for news and information.  There is only limited info on FB to whet the appetite as people don't spend much time reading posts and articles there.  
What prevented this TS industry salesperson from coming to the TUG website and BBS itself and checking it out?  If he were smart, he would pay the modest fee to become a member and REALLY learn and understand what Timeshare owners are thinking and learning about the industry!  
I wish I had found TUG sooner, but since I did, I have bought a resale week to go along with my Marriott purchases, which I am quite happy about, despite the higher price I paid.  
I constantly refer people I know and who are interested in my Timeshare experience and learning more about them to TUG!
Brian


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## TUGBrian

All I do on the facebook page is post articles from the newsletters...which are mostly if not all forum threads.


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## momeason

I found TUG right after I rescinded a timeshare purchase.I have purchased 2 and sold one since.     TUG is wonderful!


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## Beefnot

TUG changed my life. I have since bought several, sold one, still own two, and also own a boatload of points in one system. I can now travel in luxury and comfort with my family, and still have a pretty penny in my pocket from rental income after it is all said and done.  I love timeshares.

The only real negative tone I have seen on TUG is condescension by some against newbies for naively buying from the developer.


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## SmithOp

I'm the very appreciative TUGer that got the week from Rascalsmom, and when it is no longer a good fit for me you can bet I'll pass it on to another TUGer.  Of course,  she has right of first refusal taking it back. 

I drank the HGVC kool aid twice before finding TUG, and have since added two resale and the freebie.  I have learned so much from this community on how to best use not only my HGVC but several of the other developer systems.

Is it too negative?  No, it just reflects society, there are some TUGers that bang the same drum and become tiresome, but they go on my ignore list. Just put this Facebook tool on your ignore list Brian.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## PearlCity

Brian, I think you need to just delete and block that guy. Seriously.  Resale values are driven by market demand.  If timeshare developers put out a product that would maintain it's value, it wouldn't drop in value.  Tug has been amazing in teaching me how I can afford to go on amazing vacations with my family of 5 --of which would have been next to impossible because most HOTEL rooms only accomodate 4. and if they accomodate 5, it comes with a tiny little mini fridge that results in me running to the market to accomdate my kids hefty appetite for milk (They go through THREE GALLONS a week). 

The community here is extremely helpful and has been a great place for me to learn.  Since being active on tug, I've bought three resale weeks  at prices I never thought I could afford. Love TUG. That guy on Facebook just needs to go away.


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## MichaelColey

To me, TUG is overwhelmingly positive.  (And I mean that in a good way.)  Members are helpful, polite, and honest.  Many posts are questions (which are answered) and many of the others are relaying positive experiences and tips.  There are negative posts, but most are justified (and helpful and honest).  And the ones that aren't justified are pretty transparent and get called out. TUG is an incredible resource/community for timeshare owners.

I've been here a relatively short time, but I feel like I've made many true friends here, learned TONS, and given back a bit.

I can see how the perception might be different from someone within the industry, because quite honestly most developer purchases *are* bad, many timeshare salesmen *are* dishonest (at best), and some HOAs *are* incompetent.


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## ace2000

I think we need to forget about positive vs. negative and focus on the facts.  If I came to TUG asking for advice that's what I would want to hear.  I'd like to ask that guy what he would want to hear if he was the one seeking advice on purchasing a timeshare?


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## geekette

TUGBrian said:


> its essentially an individual (who works in the Timeshare Industry) who claims TUG does nothing but post negative comments about Timeshares to specifically drive down the resale prices...at some sort of profit to TUG.  His exact quote was "monetizing owners misery"
> 
> basically he was complaining that all TUG says is "developer sales are bad, timeshare salesmen are bad, HOAs are incompetent, etc etc" while never saying anything positive about Timeshares.
> 
> I personally consider every "I found TUG in time to rescind and buy resale" as an overwhelmingly positive success story, however being in the industry...he clearly does not.
> 
> 
> It did however make me wonder if regular owners shared his opinion (I honestly could give two craps about how the industry views TUG)....my only concern is how owners view us =)
> 
> I firmly believe that anyone (owner, or looking to buy) should know every detail about ownership prior to making such a financial "investment".  noone will ever change that way of thinking for me, but perhaps im not expressing it in the best way and thus seemingly always negative?



I share your viewpoint.

If Tug were The Market Maker, things would be much different for all of us.

Too negative?  NO!   Pro-Owner, Anti-Sleaze. That is POSITIVE!!


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## pedro47

Tug's is not to negative in my opinion.  The tone of the some of the poster's has change over the years.

I do missed the many posts by DaveM and Fern.


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## rhonda

Brian - how do we differentiate this question from "TUG Forums" (this site) vs "TUG's Facebook page"?  Conversations above seem to indicate that the noted concern may be focused on the FB page not this Forum?


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## gnorth16

I research everything I buy, so why would it be any different for a timeshare? 
If "the truth" is sugar coated, it really isn't the truth and members are doing a disservice to those coming here for information.  Be tactful, but honesty is always the best policy.


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## b2bailey

We bought two Marriott timeshares at full price BEFORE we found Tug. The reason they convinced us to buy the first one (Newport Coast, preconstruction) was the appeal of turning the week into Marriott Rewards points so we could use them 'anywhere' we wanted. Buying resale would not have given us the option of MR points. Was it a high price to pay? Yes. Would I do it again? No. Am I 'sorry' for doing it the first time? NO.


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## TUGBrian

Well, every post on the facebook page is a link to a popular forum thread (one that actually has conversation and discussion in it).


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## ace2000

TUGBrian said:


> Well, every post on the facebook page is a link to a popular forum thread (one that actually has conversation and discussion in it).


 
Ah, so you're the problem then.  Why are you only linking to the "negative" threads? 



kidding.


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## DaveNV

Brian, it seems the guy complaining is one of those social-media hangers on who doesn't have time to follow up with fact-checking, for example, by researching the full TUG site.  It's easier to browse down a selected list of posts on a FB page, and then complain about it, as if that was the last word on all things TUG does.  

Like so many others these days, they complain because they CAN, and not because they SHOULD.  If it cost them the time to write a snail mail letter, and pay for a stamp, they wouldn't say a word.  

If TUG was such a naysayer, and was such a bad influence, it wouldn't receive such high praise from unsolicited media sources, magazines, and TV news shows.  

Consider the source, and move on.

Dave


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## Carol C

ace2000 said:


> I think we need to forget about positive vs. negative and focus on the facts.  If I came to TUG asking for advice that's what I would want to hear.  I'd like to ask that guy what he would want to hear if he was the one seeking advice on purchasing a timeshare?



I'm not on FB but I'd like someone to also ask him how many timeshares he himself has bought from developers. Hopefully I won't "vomit" when I hear the answer to that! :rofl:


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## richardm

*Tug is simply a reflection of the industry..*

It's not surprising that resort employees and management also view Tug as dangerous.. The fact that Tug has survived and even thrived over the years is quite amazing! Other bulletin boards have been shut down by the industry- so I'm grateful every day that Tug is still a resource for timeshare owners!
Tug may at times read with a negative slant, but that is more a by-product of a tarnished industry than intentional sabotage.

Unfortunately- most timeshare upper management is top heavy with former sales weasels- individuals who have little respect for the product and even less for the consumers who buy it..   

On the front line sales- the working environment is not one of customer service but rather of fierce competition. It's a contest of wills for the salesperson to "make the sale"- not simply allow the merits of the product to sell itself.. [Disney is a notable exception!]...  This ultra-aggressive mentality is brought to the boardroom when these same sharks are promoted, which in turn impacts every facet of the industry.. 

It's also true that these same personalities often have a difficult time taking responsibility for failure. The super-ego of the sales weasel can't handle insecurity, so it's easier to blame any failures on an outside force..


----------



## Passepartout

The FaceBook complainer simply doesn't have the cojones to whine directly on TUG. He feels that FB is an 'independent' site where he doesn't have to register, and therefore has a feeling of a certain amount of anonymity. Like a CB 'flamer' of the past.

What it REALLY shows is that he's a coward who isn't strong enough in his convictions to defend them in open forum.

Do not lose a moment's sleep over this clown.

Jim


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## SueDonJ

I'm always uncomfortable with timeshare developers/salespeople and the folks who buy from them being labeled as, "liars, suckers, koolaid drinkers, sleaze," etc.  I think it makes for an environment which isn't welcoming or receptive at all to those in the industry, and sometimes only slightly more welcoming to folks who buy from them.  So, in that respect, I guess I agree with the timeshare guy who spoke up on FB to say that from his perspective TUG is a negative place.

I voted the second option because IMO this place is the best place hands-down to learn the "truth" about timeshares, definitely the best resource for timeshare owners.  But my answer really isn't a "no" answer because in fact there is a negative tone on TUG towards developers/salespeople.  And the third option is less applicable, because I don't think we could say any more positive things than we already do about the timeshares themselves.

Please don't take this the wrong way.    I honestly don't see how TUG could be positive towards both owners and those in the industry.  Our end results are at odds with each other for the most part, aren't they?  They want to make a business profit, we want to enjoy luxury vacations at the lowest prices possible.


----------



## Passepartout

OK, so Susan, when someone finds us and says they have just endured 6-8 hours of torture at a Westgate presentation and was browbeaten into buying something they don't understand and can't afford and isn't right for them, what should we say?

Gosh, newbie, that salesman has to eat, too. And his kids need shoes, just like yours do. So suck it up and get over it. Life isn't fair. Make those payments, and keep the economy going. It's up to you. You can do it, Rah, rah, rah! 

Just because they sell a product that you can buy for 5% or less than you paid, and the outfit you bought from has a less-than-F BBB rating, and they refuse to buy back resales at any price- including accepting those that owners want to give back FREE, they are REALLY nice guys.

Welcome to TUG!

I don't think so.......

Jim


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## SueDonJ

Passepartout said:


> OK, so Susan, when someone finds us and says they have just endured 6-8 hours of torture at a Westgate presentation and was browbeaten into buying something they don't understand and can't afford and isn't right for them, what should we say?
> 
> Gosh, newbie, that salesman has to eat, too. And his kids need shoes, just like yours do. So suck it up and get over it. Life isn't fair. Make those payments, and keep the economy going. It's up to you. You can do it, Rah, rah, rah!
> 
> Just because they sell a product that you can buy for 5% or less than you paid, and the outfit you bought from has a less-than-F BBB rating, and they refuse to buy back resales at any price- including accepting those that owners want to give back FREE, they are REALLY nice guys.
> 
> Welcome to TUG!
> 
> I don't think so.......
> 
> Jim



I don't think so either!  I'm right there in line with everyone else on TUG who answers those questions with, "Rescind while/if you can, stick around and learn what you need to know to make an informed decision, and welcome to TUG!"

I just don't understand why we have to denigrate the developers/salespeople at the same time for doing their jobs.  Not all developers are the Devil's Spawn, and not all salespeople lie to the heavens in order to make a sale.


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## TUGBrian

While i don't think anyone is foolish enough to think that all salesman should be painted with the same "slimeball" brush....it would be equally foolish to assume that the one you are talking to at any given time is a saint =)

This industry didn't earn its black eyes overnight...while I wont argue for a minute that things haven't changed for the better over the years at many resorts...there are still far too many stories we hear each and every week that would lead me to believe the shady tricks are still being used often enough to warn people about them!

People should have the information presented to them so they can make an informed decision.  I would much rather an owner know about these "controversial" issues and be able to say "wow, im glad someone warned me about that before I fell for it" or even  "man im glad my resort isnt like that" vs going around completely oblivious to the fact that it exists.


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## Passepartout

SueDonJ said:


> I just don't understand why we have to denigrate the developers/salespeople at the same time for doing their jobs.  Not all developers are the Devil's Spawn, and not all salespeople lie to the heavens in order to make a sale.



How do you tell the difference? If the developers would just follow the lead of auto makers and dealers, by accepting trades. Or resales. Or repo's. SOMEBODY needs to publish a 'Kelly Blue Book' of timeshares to give people an idea of a REAL resale value of what they own. We all know that timeshares are NOT 'Real Estate'. They depreciate. But they don't NEED to depreciate at 100% on the first day. Sure, all timeshare management companies are not created equal. Some are relatively honest, and sell the steak, while some just sell the sizzle. 

We accept the FACT that ALL timeshares are USED. The developers need to do the same. They are selling exactly the same thing as a reseller. Or an owner. The common denominator is the quality of the management company. If a property is well managed it should- and will- maintain it's value. Poorly managed, that is to say those who take the MF's to pay stockholders or BOD's salaries instead of making the properties attractive to owners need unscrupulous sales people to churn the inventory of units.

Until an honest and open resale market is developed, and it is controlled by desperate sellers and eBay viking ship marketing goes to jail, it won't change.

Just my $.02

Jim


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## ace2000

SueDonJ said:


> I don't think so either!  I'm right there in line with everyone else on TUG who answers those questions with, "Rescind while/if you can, stick around and learn what you need to know to make an informed decision, and welcome to TUG!"
> 
> I just don't understand why we have to denigrate the developers/salespeople at the same time for doing their jobs.  Not all developers are the Devil's Spawn, and not all salespeople lie to the heavens in order to make a sale.



The only problem I have with your logic is that you're referring to a salesman or saleslady who has purposely chosen to sell a product at a price that is most likely a total ripoff.  It takes a "special" type of person that can sleep well while working that type of job.  And how many of them are totally honest about the product they're selling?


----------



## SueDonJ

TUGBrian said:


> While i don't think anyone is foolish enough to think that all salesman should be painted with the same "slimeball" brush....it would be equally foolish to assume that the one you are talking to at any given time is a saint =)
> 
> This industry didn't earn its black eyes overnight...while I wont argue for a minute that things haven't changed for the better over the years at many resorts...there are still far too many stories we hear each and every week that would lead me to believe the shady tricks are still being used often enough to warn people about them!
> 
> People should have the information presented to them so they can make an informed decision.  I would much rather an owner know about these "controversial" issues and be able to say "wow, im glad someone warned me about that before I fell for it" or even  "man im glad my resort isnt like that" vs going around completely oblivious to the fact that it exists.



I agree.  But let me ask, at what point do we put the responsibility for a "bad" purchase on the person who makes it?  Buyer Beware has to come into the equation somewhere, and the mandated rescission policies are in place for that very reason.  Why do we put all the blame on the developers/salespeople when folks come here admitting that they just dumped a ton of money without doing due diligence, either before or directly after when they have the paperwork in their hands?

I'm not advocating that every person who comes here looking for help should be told, "too bad, so sad, you should have been more responsible" - not advocating such an insulting, dismissive attitude AT ALL!  I just wish that we could take at least a little care to consider the perspective of the folks on the other side of the transaction as we do those on this side.  Even if we can't say positive things about the developers/salespeople (and sometimes, those who buy from them,) do we have to always say negative things about them?  Why not stick with the nuts and bolts, "this is what it is, this is how you can be helped," and not so much the, "those $*&#%#&^ took complete advantage of you!"


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## SueDonJ

ace2000 said:


> The only problem I have with your logic is that you're referring to a salesman or saleslady who has purposely chosen to sell a product at a price that is most likely a total ripoff.  It takes a "special" type of person that can sleep well while working that type of job.  And how many of them are totally honest about the product they're selling?



I just don't get the animosity.  They're salespeople, doing an entry level job that's taught to them in a specific manner meant to generate sales.  Unless they own the product, and many don't, they have absolutely no reason to understand the product to the extent that owners should.  Heck, many owners don't understand the product even after years of owning it!

For what it's worth, I don't understand animosity towards tele-sales people or political robo-calls or overeager salespeople at car dealerships, either.  Salespeople sell things, that's what they do.  They don't develop the product or write the product warranties or research the related legislation or etc etc etc


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## TUGBrian

I think rescission policies should be much longer.  you dont even get to USE the product until the following year (in most cases).  Especially in states where the term is only a few days, a week sometimes isnt even enough especially when the resorts attempt to schedule the sales presentations on the first day or two of the stay!

I agree completely with you that when it comes down to it...the buyer should do as much research as possible before signing a contract that is such a large purchase.  After all, its not that the buyer generally wants out of the PRODUCT (admittedly that does happen, but far more rare)...but instead regrets the purchase price!

Perhaps there could be a staggered rescission period....say 7-10 days to cancel completely....and 30 days to price match a resale offer?

for instance...say im johnny q knowsnothing and buy a random timeshare for 25k.

Im clearly perfectly happy with the product, after all I just paid thousands of dollars for it!  But I get home a week later and find that SAME product on the resale market for $500 bucks.

While I am all about capitalism and free markets, and there is no reason there shouldnt be a profit involved for the sale of a timeshare at the resort, but in these cases there should be at least some sort of refund involved to the owner.

There is no way that salesman isnt perfectly aware that the product he just sold for thousands can be bought for pennies in the resale market.  While I agree that the cost of his salesmanship should earn him something, the goal for a resort is to have happy, maintenance fee paying owners....not rich salesmen.


anyway, thats just me rambling and thinking out loud.


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## ace2000

SueDonJ said:


> I just don't get the animosity.  They're salespeople, doing an entry level job that's taught to them in a specific manner meant to generate sales.  Unless they own the product, and many don't, they have absolutely no reason to understand the product to the extent that owners should.  Heck, many owners don't understand the product even after years of owning it!
> 
> For what it's worth, I don't understand animosity towards tele-sales people or political robo-calls or overeager salespeople at car dealerships, either.  Salespeople sell things, that's what they do.  They don't develop the product or write the product warranties or research the related legislation or etc etc etc



Yes, but in this industry, they have chosen to sell a product and apply high pressure tactics to many people that cannot afford it (including many elderly).  I'm not saying they deserve hatred and scorn, but lumping together with "other" salespeople as you have in your post, is pretty naive.


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## timeos2

SueDonJ said:


> I agree.  But let me ask, at what point do we put the responsibility for a "bad" purchase on the person who makes it?  Buyer Beware has to come into the equation somewhere, and the mandated rescission policies are in place for that very reason.  Why do we put all the blame on the developers/salespeople when folks come here admitting that they just dumped a ton of money without doing due diligence, either before or directly after when they have the paperwork in their hands?
> 
> I'm not advocating that every person who comes here looking for help should be told, "too bad, so sad, you should have been more responsible" - not advocating such an insulting, dismissive attitude AT ALL!  I just wish that we could take at least a little care to consider the perspective of the folks on the other side of the transaction as we do those on this side.  Even if we can't say positive things about the developers/salespeople (and sometimes, those who buy from them,) do we have to always say negative things about them?  Why not stick with the nuts and bolts, "this is what it is, this is how you can be helped," and not so much the, "those $*&#%#&^ took complete advantage of you!"



I have felt a bit of pity for those poor folks, especially those obviously new to it all and probably destined to never make a nickle at it, but they also had a choice NOT to represent an industry based on inflated prices and twisted if not outright untrue "facts" under high pressure and carefully scripted sales presentations that play on the naivety of uninformed buyers. Sure we may go in looking to get the $100+ in cash or gifts but we didn't create the model - they did! You can't paint every timeshare sales person as evil but there aren't many that aren't aware of just how badly they are misrepresenting the truth to buyers. And when you get to the level of the Corporate sponsors/owners there is no doubt they realize how sleazy the whole industry is and why resales represent such a great value cmpared to the outrageous prices of the retail process. 

We enjoy and believe in timesharing but the retail / developer side needs a serious cleanup and concept change to be what it really should have been all along. Sadly it is deteriorating not improving in the past decade.


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## channimal

With regards to being brutally honest on the TS industry and the developers who employ teams of morals-deficient salespeople... I'd say TUG is as honest as it needs to be.  It should be frank, stark and in your face to help people make an informed decision about their timeshare purchase.

Sometimes I cringe at posts in threads here of people who have been duped into buying at inflated developer prices and a few of the comments tend to be a "pile-on" of what a dumb decision versus a more empathetic response and suggestions on either rescission or how to make the best of a purchase.. but that's just me.  DW says I'm a 6'2, 260lb teddy bear :hysterical:


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## Quadmaniac

SueDonJ said:


> I just don't get the animosity.  They're salespeople, doing an entry level job that's taught to them in a specific manner meant to generate sales.  Unless they own the product, and many don't, they have absolutely no reason to understand the product to the extent that owners should.  Heck, many owners don't understand the product even after years of owning it!
> 
> For what it's worth, I don't understand animosity towards tele-sales people or political robo-calls or overeager salespeople at car dealerships, either.  Salespeople sell things, that's what they do.  They don't develop the product or write the product warranties or research the related legislation or etc etc etc



I don't think that there is anything wrong with being a salesperson BUT when they use heavy tactics to entice people to buy something they don't understand or can afford, I think that is very underhanded and taking advantage of people. If the the playing field was level, that is a completely different story but we all know that it is not and most people convinced to buy are at a disadvantage of not knowing all the facts. When it is that they lie to customers to get them to buy, promising them the ability to rent at a profit and the timeshare going up in value is just plain deceitful. I think this would describe the majority vs the minority of developer sales.


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## rickandcindy23

Timeshare salespeople have a job to do, and they do it with lies and half truths.  It's a sleazy profession, but it's a way some people make their living, and for the more pushy salesmen, it's a great living.  

Unfortunately, I don't think they have a conscience, or if they do have a conscience, they are not looking at the implications of the sale to the person who just bought the overpriced, over-hyped product.  

I feel differently about Marriott and a few others because there is almost a decent intrinsic value, but even still, resale is devalued for the original buyer who wants to see it stay the same or go up in a few years.  After all, it is real estate, and doesn't real estate mostly go up in value?  It's sold as real estate and inferred that it will go up in value.


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## Beefnot

Timeshare salespeople is no more sleazy than auto salespeople and attorneys.  They all lie for a living. They all do.  Hey, a defense attorney's job is to get his client off by creating reasonable doubt even if he believes his client is guilty (and perhaps he deliberately will not ask too many questions so that he can sleep at night).  Perhaps the degree of lying, half-truths, manipulation, and intellectual dishonesty may vary, but it's there plain as day.

Timeshares are "total ripoffs" only insofar as what the measuring stick is.  Measured against resale purchases, absolutely.  Against equivalent class hotel accommodations over a 25 to 40 year period, perhaps not.  There are ways to rationalize the degree of sleaziness, just as one would dealer salespeople or lawyers.


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## Passepartout

Beefnot said:


> Timeshare salespeople is no more sleazy than auto salespeople and attorneys.....<snip>......There are ways to rationalize the degree of sleaziness, just as one would dealer salespeople or lawyers.



I can't disagree more. Even the most sleazy car salesman provides a vehicle worth SOMETHING. A TS is worth ZERO or nearly so in a financial way the day after the purchase is completed. And in defense of my DW, who provides guidance for disabled people to get disability INSURANCE funds, that the person has paid the premium for. These are the most needy people you can imagine. She does not work on a contingency, her fee comes from the insurance on top of what the claimant gets.

Please beware of the width of the brush you paint people with. Broad strokes splatter on innocent victims.

Jim


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## Beefnot

Passepartout said:


> I can't disagree more. Even the most sleazy car salesman provides a vehicle worth SOMETHING. A TS is worth ZERO or nearly so in a financial way the day after the purchase is completed. And in defense of my DW, who provides guidance for disabled people to get disability INSURANCE funds, that the person has paid the premium for. These are the most needy people you can imagine. She does not work on a contingency, her fee comes from the insurance on top of what the claimant gets.
> 
> Please beware of the width of the brush you paint people with. Broad strokes splatter on innocent victims.
> 
> Jim


 
With respect to width of the brush, so are all timeshare salespeople sleazy or not? If yes, then your measuring stick is flawed. You are basing it on the relative resale value of the property. Okay, so how about Disney salespeople? There is significant resale value in those properties resale. Or is the degree of sleaziness dependent on the resale value of the property? So Jaguar salespeople are lying sacks of crap while Toyota salespeople are the gold standard in sales?

I'm not speaking about anyone's specific relative or friend or whoever, so don't want to get personal. But all many attorneys do lie or manipulate or mislead for a living. It's not their job to be truthful, it's their job to spin or play up/down facts and perception to their advantage, and let the system decide. But don't want to turn it into a debate about lawyers. Was simply calling out that there are other professions that have the same or similar degree of murky behavior.


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## vacationhopeful

TUG is a reference source on using this product called timeshares. Just like TV sets or cars, there are many different models with different functions and operating costs. Is the Blue Book for car values HATED by the car manufacturers? NO! Does Consumer Reports get blasted for rating a TV set as junk with high repair bills? NO!

Is TUG fostering a environment for picking and pricing of the timeshare product -- like Consumer Reports or the Blue Book for their field of products... YES.

The Timeshare "Professional" is tilting at windmills - the internet has changed their business model - either change or your career will not pay the bills in the future.


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## geekette

Passepartout said:


> The FaceBook complainer simply doesn't have the cojones to whine directly on TUG. He feels that FB is an 'independent' site where he doesn't have to register, and therefore has a feeling of a certain amount of anonymity. Like a CB 'flamer' of the past.
> 
> What it REALLY shows is that he's a coward who isn't strong enough in his convictions to defend them in open forum.
> 
> Do not lose a moment's sleep over this clown.
> 
> Jim



I don't do FB but my understanding is that You are You, no moniker or pet name or whatnot.  Am I wrong?  Seems to me that geekette here is far less anonymous than Mary Kay Smith there.


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## geekette

SueDonJ said:


> I agree.  But let me ask, at what point do we put the responsibility for a "bad" purchase on the person who makes it?  Buyer Beware has to come into the equation somewhere, and the mandated rescission policies are in place for that very reason.  Why do we put all the blame on the developers/salespeople when folks come here admitting that they just dumped a ton of money without doing due diligence, either before or directly after when they have the paperwork in their hands?
> 
> I'm not advocating that every person who comes here looking for help should be told, "too bad, so sad, you should have been more responsible" - not advocating such an insulting, dismissive attitude AT ALL!  I just wish that we could take at least a little care to consider the perspective of the folks on the other side of the transaction as we do those on this side.  Even if we can't say positive things about the developers/salespeople (and sometimes, those who buy from them,) do we have to always say negative things about them?  Why not stick with the nuts and bolts, "this is what it is, this is how you can be helped," and not so much the, "those $*&#%#&^ took complete advantage of you!"



I lose respect very quickly for those that lie or resort to other tricks to sell me.  It's not ethical and traps decent people.  Further, the buy now or never is completely false.  

Sure, too bad people don't know that's crap, but they don't know that's crap and rely on what they were told.  Sure, buyer beware, and around here, Buyer Beware Of TS Salesfolks.

It gets mighty hard to stomp out a stereotype when too many keep on doing the things that created it to start with.


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## pedro47

Why do t/s sale personnel pray on senior citizens.

Myth: A t/s saleperson would tell a senior citizen how much their time share is worth on the open market  ($10,000 - $20,000). 

But the true is you can not give your time share away for free many times.

I just wish some of the developer's would take back their timeshare units after the owner had paid off the timeshare, without incurring any new costs.

Tug's tell timeshare owners the trurth about buying from a developer.

This is my opinion only.


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## Carol C

Has anyone considered that maybe t/s salespeople get more aggressive, even bitter, because so many people attend sales presentations ONLY for the freebies and some very insensitive types might even make a mockery of the operation and/or salesperson whilst sitting at their table? Maybe "the game" as some TUGgers call it isn't worth it if the end result is an elderly or naive person gets caught by lies thrown out there by jaded and bitter salespeople. Perhaps greed begets greed? Imagine a world where folks on vacation ONLY attend a sales presentation if they truly have serious interest in the product...not just for freebie gifts.


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## Passepartout

Carol C said:


> Imagine a world where folks on vacation ONLY attend a sales presentation if they truly have serious interest in the product...not just for freebie gifts.



That isn't the model the developers have chosen- though I'm certain they would love it.

The reality is, NO ONE goes on vacation to buy a timeshare. NO ONE.


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## SueDonJ

I need to shop where you people shop because for sure when I walk into Fresh Market they don't tell me that my money will go further at Stop&Shop, at Jordan's Furniture they don't tell me that my money will go further at Bob's, at Macy's they don't tell me that my money will go further at Marshall's etc etc etc ... Honestly, it doesn't make any sense to me that salespeople are expected to let buyers know where they can get the same things cheaper.  It's my job as the consumer to learn what I need to know in order to make my money go as far as it can!

Again, not to put the complete blame on the buyer, but it's not a timeshare salesperson's job to save people from themselves!

I have very limited experience with timeshare salespeople - the one and only whom I've dealt with has been honest about the product, despite selling it in terms that obviously put it in the best possible light.  I wasn't ever told and it wasn't ever inferred that the product would be a good financial investment.  In fact, her presentation and the checklist we had to initial and sign made it very clear that timeshares are NOT financial investments.  So admittedly, my perspective is skewed.  But that's not to say that I don't believe that others have experienced sales experiences that were horror shows - of course those happen!

IMO the internet has worked remarkably well to get the word out that timeshare ownership is a legitimate vacation lifestyle despite its inherent risks.  And like I said, TUG is the best resource I know to both educate the world about timeshares and help owners make the most of what they own.  TUG can also be used to further consumer protections for owners, such as what's happening in Florida with timeshare scammers being identified and charged.  I love Brian's idea of extended rescission periods - his reasoning that you don't even use the product until a year after it's bought makes sense.  Maybe his words on TUG will spark a conversation among folks who are in a position to do something about it.

But I still think that the prevailing broadbrush TUG attitude of Timeshare-Salespeople-Are-Bad-And-Developer-Buyers-Are-Suckers fosters a negative vibe here, and have to agree with the guy on FB who looks at TUG from that perspective.  Just look at the irony in this thread - Brian started a poll asking if TUG is a negative place and as soon as I said that it is from a certain perspective, everybody started trashing everyone who looks at TUG from that perspective!  To some extent we're proving the FB guy's point, aren't we?


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## SueDonJ

Passepartout said:


> That isn't the model the developers have chosen- though I'm certain they would love it.
> 
> The reality is, NO ONE goes on vacation to buy a timeshare. NO ONE.



Not true.


----------



## timeos2

Carol C said:


> Has anyone considered that maybe t/s salespeople get more aggressive, even bitter, because so many people attend sales presentations ONLY for the freebies and some very insensitive types might even make a mockery of the operation and/or salesperson whilst sitting at their table? Maybe "the game" as some TUGgers call it isn't worth it if the end result is an elderly or naive person gets caught by lies thrown out there by jaded and bitter salespeople. Perhaps greed begets greed? Imagine a world where folks on vacation ONLY attend a sales presentation if they truly have serious interest in the product...not just for freebie gifts.



It would be great but which side of the equation is setting the trap? Is it the vacationer checking in to their accommodations and enjoying a week of relaxation or the Developers / Sales Weasels plotting the best way to entice them into the "update" knowing they want to pressure them to buy something they are likely unfamiliar with, have no intention of buying or owning and will be open to "free gifts" or cash when it's presented as a virtually no risk 90 minutes of their time with absolutely no obligation? 

Sorry but the pity meter fails to register on the Weasel side, in fact it tends to go into the red, while even if the marks are familiar with timeshare tricks and sales tactics the meter still warrant a good amount of green scale simply because they are tempted with gifts that are meant to lure them in.  It is up to the Developers to change the model as the guests never had a say in the first place.  TUG is just one of the ways a consumer has even a small chance to level the playing field. It makes the retail sales talk negative for certain but that just reflects the truth of what is going on. It is merely the messenger, not the cause.


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## Passepartout

SueDonJ said:


> So admittedly, my perspective is skewed.



Agreed. If all you've experienced is one salesperson at Marriott, you haven't partaken of the majority of TS presentations.

Walk a mile in the majority's moccasins. You'll see.


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## easyrider

TUG is the Ralph Nadar of the timeshare industry, imo. If there is a way to be positive about any product that depreciates as fast as a timeshare, the people at TUG are.

As far as TS sales staff go, Im not sure why anyone would group them all together. Most are good people that are selling a product that does have fundamental value. 

The top 20% of this group wouldn't complain about TUG or any other website that causes them to loose a sale but would use this experience as a learning tool. That might be why people that go to these presentations get ticked as a good sales person is going to explore ways to get your attention and see what makes you tic. These people don't see the lack of a sale as a failure but rather an investment in their sales process. 

Only a weak salesperson needs to lie to sell a product, imo. 


Bill


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## vacationhopeful

Some/MANY developers want you to met with them during your first morning - to lessen the internet time for your to research or even think, SHOULD I spend thousands of dollars on this? And by the time the majority of travellers have unpacked & washed clothes or mowed the grass or brought the fresh food for the refrigerator at home, the RESCIND PERIOD has lapsed! 

And if they can't get you the first morning, the second morning is almost as good.

Now, if they could just close the pool everyday but Friday and Saturday (the check in days) ... their world would be perfect. :ignore:


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## SueDonJ

Passepartout said:


> Agreed. If all you've experienced is one salesperson at Marriott, you haven't partaken of the majority of TS presentations.
> 
> Walk a mile in the majority's moccasins. You'll see.



"Walk a mile?"  Couldn't that be said to anyone taking part in this thread, that different perspectives influence thought processes?  That's my point, that the FB guy's perspective is different from that of most TUGgers, thus his opinion that TUG is a negative place is valid for him and others who share his perspective.


----------



## Passepartout

SueDonJ said:


> "Walk a mile?"  Couldn't that be said to anyone taking part in this thread, that different perspectives influence thought processes?  That's my point, that the* FB guy's perspective is different from that of most TUGgers, *thus his opinion that TUG is a negative place is valid for him and others who share his perspective.



Oh, sure. Different strokes and all that. Differing opinions are what makes the world an interesting place. That the FB guy feels that we (TUGgers) don't share his opinion, and we are 'negative' towards him isn't the slightest bit curious.

If Brian hadn't initiated this poll, I'd have never been aware of him or his views. Not that his views surprise me, and he shouldn't be all that surprised that by a HUGE majority, (approximately 97% to 3%) TUGgers don't share his opinions. Or give a great big rat's patootie.


----------



## richardm

*This isn't the case....*

I've spent time in a few front line sale offices, and the sales people are usually not the least bit concerned about the gifting. They understand that the gift is the hook used by the OPC's to bring people to the plate.  

Generally, nobody walks into a tour with the intention of buying. Every tour is a designed process to try and discover  what psychological buttons can be pushed to create an emotional purchase. 

The only real times you'll hear a competent timeshare salesperson complain is when they are forced to take an unqualified tour, which means that the prospect doesn't fit into a category for a likely buyer. They don't want a single man or a single woman. They want a couple, and preferably married. There are also normally income requirements, which have a direct relationship with the sale price of the product. When the prospect doesn't meet these criteria, the salesperson will normally ask that they be classified as an NQ (not qualified) which does not count against their closing percentage and often allows them to push through quickly to grab another prospect.

The developers place an incredible amount of pressure on these individuals to perform, and as such it is rare to find a sales person who has worked for a single developer for a complete year. (Again- the notable exception to this is Disney Vacation Club where cast members may be employed for year after year). 

Most work a few months, and when their numbers fall below the quota they are fired and simply move on to the next sales line that is hiring.  It makes no sense, but I've known several sales people that would simply back back and forth between three or four developers in Orlando- returning to the same line where they are fired a year or two prior for another tour of duty.

It's a brutal and aggressive environment, but one that normally pays very very well for what amounts to a few hours of work each week.  The individuals who can't work in that environment often migrate to telesales- where it is less combative. 




Carol C said:


> Has anyone considered that maybe t/s salespeople get more aggressive, even bitter, because so many people attend sales presentations ONLY for the freebies and some very insensitive types might even make a mockery of the operation and/or salesperson whilst sitting at their table? Maybe "the game" as some TUGgers call it isn't worth it if the end result is an elderly or naive person gets caught by lies thrown out there by jaded and bitter salespeople. Perhaps greed begets greed? Imagine a world where folks on vacation ONLY attend a sales presentation if they truly have serious interest in the product...not just for freebie gifts.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Richard, I agree with you.  We stopped going to presentations because we feel it's a waste of our time and the salesman's time.  It's still a way to make a living, and I feel it's wasting his/her time talking to us.  Nonetheless, I have told the people on the phone who call day after day: "I know timeshare resales very well.  I don't want whatever you are selling for an inflated price."  But they push any way, and if we give in and waste someone's time, and that someone makes a comment about it, I am quick to say, "I stopped the nagging from the person on the phone, who called me DAILY." 

They can get in my face all they want (and this has happened), but I gave in to the pressure and increasing incentives.  Marriott stopped calling us because I did finally go on one presentation a few years ago.  At first it was $80, then $100, then $125.  How could I resist? It was lies, lies and more lies.  

But these folks know what resale is, and they know the vast price difference between their prices and resale prices.  So lying is what they do.


----------



## thegeers

*LOVE me some TUG*

I love tug,

I am a former owner (never plan on owning again)
I have found great rental properties here for less than the maintenance fee I was paying for my own unit.
I keep dishing out the $30 every 3 years to keep this group around.
If I ever did buy one again, I would NEVER buy from the developer.


----------



## rcollinsny

*When speaking the truth, one is bound to upset someone!!*

TUG tells it like it is and that is the way it should be!! TUG is definitely good for the resale industry. When people find TUG and educate themselves, then they can buy resale and feel good about what they have done. Thus more buyers means more demand and maybe even better prices for some sellers.

We bought 2 Wyndham contracts from the developer before finding TUG. After educating ourselves, we decided to become timeshare renters and bought 19 more resale contracts to stock our rental warehouse. We are doing great in the rental business as well as traveling extensively on our own. We love our timesharing experiences and we owe it all to what we learned on TUG!!


----------



## GTStone

*Fair and Balanced ?*

Poor me ... I see both sides.

I think there is a lot of benefit to TUG and it has been well stated by people who talk about the information they receive.

I also think its good to let people know about the resale market.  However, I don't like the attitude expressed by many on the forum that if you pay more than a $1 you are getting ripped off.  In fact, I'm not fond of putting all developers in the same box, or saying those of us who investigated the options, made informed decisions, and purchased from a developer are fools.  I've heard that one before, and no amount of facts dissuades those people from being rude.

Perhaps the most overlooked point is that developing a property and marketing it is expensive.  Also, in our free market system it is the developer's right to ask whatever they want for a property.  No one is forced to buy a timeshare.

We tend to ignore personal responsibility on the part of  the buyer.  If they won't do their homework before seeking their free gift, then they can't blame it on a sales pitch.  I knew what a timeshare was before I went to my first presentation.  I knew what I wanted, what I was willing to spend, and set my limits.  We reached an agreement and I bought a property without any regrets.  The only free gift I wanted was lunch !  They paid for it.

Buyer's remorse is a fact of life with any high priced item.  Timeshares are no different.  It usually results when people simply don't make wise decisions or say NO.  Salespeople are the same in every industry.  I see it every day. Its the viewpoint of "promise anything, and later we'll do what we can deliver".  

The good of TUG is that its a great information resource on how timeshares and exchanges work, how you can get great deals on resales, how to handle specific problems that arise, and what facilities offer a great option for your interests.

When it fails is when some posters are so entrenched in their negativity that they just flail away rudely at anyone who doesn't agree with their point of view.  TUG doesn't need to change, but some people need to be more respectful in what they say.


----------



## nunzioescargot

*I suppose*

I can remember a "certain individual" be quoted in a national publication saying: anyone who bought or buys a new timeshare week is an idiot.(sounds somewhat negative). I considered it a slap in the face at the time. If it wasn't for people buying new timeshare weeks there wouldn't be any used timeshare weeks and without either, theoretically there wouldn't be any TUG. 


Been a timeshare owner for over 30 years and a member of TUG since the early days.


----------



## vacationhopeful

The timeshare developer sales method is based on multiple commissions to get a warm body in a chair in front of their salesperson who then gets YOU to buy their product.

Those callers on the phone get a commission to get you in for a 2 or 3 night vacation (usually a flat rate).

The hangtag personnel at each resort get a commission (call penetration rate) on getting you to go to a sales meeting AND a small bonus IF you buy. But, they also get a minimum amount to hand out parking passes. And all those coupons, those vendors PAY a fee if the coupon is used --- amounting to several hundred dollars in a good month.

The sales person who is a licensed real estate sales person in the state gets an agreed commission also - only source of payment until they meet their goal in sales volume - then a bonus).

The broker (and any in between "closer", involved) gets a commission check based on the value of the sale.

The VP of the area gets a performance bonus with a partial basis of sales volume completed (and/or over goal).

Yes, every person WANTS you to attend the timeshare presentation and then to buy. By not going and not buying, everyone HATES you. By going, only the hangtag girl gets something --- everyone else HATES you. YOU represent a lost opportunity to be paid MONEY (you are called a 'tour'); sometimes, the real estate sales person only gets 1 tour for the entire day.
And the best sales persons get the most tours - brokers like making money also.

I find that MY time is more valuable than being insulted by a bunch of real estate sales people WHO tell me I NEED more timeshares. 

So, go if you think you want to be abused or to waste 3-4 hours of your vacation morning or afternoon for chump change. I personally rather be floating in the pool or quietly reading a book.


----------



## overthehill

*TUG provides an independent resource not available anywhere else*

While I have seen a number of reviews over the years about resorts where my wife and I have stayed, I wonder when reading those reviews if we stayed at the same resort. Everyone has an opinion about resorts based on their expectations and what they found while staying at a resort. One has to take the reviews for what they are... one person's opinion. Reading thru a few of the recent reviews about a specific resort I believe the reader can get a sense/feel about what to expect at the resort. Yes, I believe TUG is not negative and provides a resource for it's members and future members. Keep up the good work. Thank you.


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## pedro47

Negativus is watching all the talk shows in the evening and that is not TUG.


----------



## number1brownsfan

*I'm basically positive, except about timeshares.*

The question is "Is TUG too negative?".  I am a member and I am basically a positive person until I talk to people about my timeshare experiences.  My mother-in-law bought a timeshare and my wife inherited it.  I now know that she could have refused to take ownership, but the probate attorney said that he could not advise her to not take ownership.  How can I be positive about a timeshare that was purchased for $1,500 that I can not give away without paying more money.  We have always paid the yearly fees and sometimes had good exchanges.  But usually we are pressured into listening to a sales pitch at those resorts.  We have become wiser and refuse to listen to any new sales pitches.  I could go on and on but why bother?


----------



## ronwaite

*tug is good*

I and my wife enjoyed being invited to our daughter/husbands time share at powhatan a number of times.  Later, their fortunes changed and they couldn't afford the fees.  My wife and I bought one timeshare from them and have had it for several years now.  We still enjoy taking a vacation there and are using it as a stopover on our way south each year.  That said, we have found that it's almost impossible to unload it, since I'm getting older we don't want to travel as much and it would be nice to get rid of the !@$% maintenance fees which keep rising each year.  Tug has alerted us to the "problems" of diamond resorts and the resort.  Each year we find that the maintenance on the units we have reserved has decreased, items that should be at least repaired have not been, light bulb wattages have been lowered, hot tubs are in the plan to be eliminated and so on.  We live in the northeast and it would be nice to visit the few resorts listed , when I go on line though I usually get a "there is no available-----"   You can try any date at several resorts and you get the same results.  Diamond has made arrangements with great wolf lodges but they are only family with small kids resorts and so not for us.  I have vented enough but this is my story, I like tug and feel they are doing a good job while the developers are not.


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## heathpack

Pre-TUG, all I knew is that timeshares were a joke, a rip off.  Then my cousin starting working for DVC and she bought DVC points.  What?!  We thought she had been ripped off but were too polite to say so.  We had no money so it didnt really matter, we couldn't afford a timeshare anyway.  Then little by little we found out more about DVC and then finally went to a sales presentation at Disneyland to get the $100 gift card.  We still thought it was probably a rip off but now were a little more established in life and could at least consider it.  In my research process, I found TUG.

TUG is what convinced me that a timeshare is not necessarily a rip-off.  So I would not say TUG is excessively negative.  You will just learn the good and the bad and how to avoid as much of the bad as possible.  Which is good, no?

We dipped out toes in the water with a Hyatt resale, then a tiny DVC resale contract, then an other small resale DVC contract.  Then a free Starwood unit from the Bargain Basement Board.  Now we're buying a resale Marriott.  We love timeshares and its all "TUG love."

No one on TUG has lied to me or willfully misrepresented facts or glossed over important details for personal gain.  I have, however, been outrageously lied to by a Marriott saleman, had the details spruced up a little but basically been told the truth by DVC and Hyatt saleswomen, and had some gentle but not entirely outrageous exaggerations from two different Starwood sales people.

Overall, I like timeshares better than I like TS salespeople and I am ok with but do not entirely trust the developers who run my TS.

H


----------



## SunSand

Tug has been overwhelmingly positive, the general group is very knowledgeable and quite helpful.  That said, I posted an honest review of our latest trip.  My account was less than glowing.  I was outright attacked for my honest assessment of a Wyndham property.  No one stopped the outright bulling.  So, it depends.  Most of the time the information is great and supportive.  In general its a great service to the consumer.  But I'm convinced, there are trolls who are timeshare marketing people here too.


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## dzayas

well I joined tug because I wanted to learn more about timeshares before I decided to purchase. tug helped me decide to purchase. I have learned lots from tug members and will continue to do so. I feel tug is awesome. I was not bombarded with people telling me not to buy. I love tug 

Dave


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## Bigrob

*Interesting responses!*

I've really enjoyed reading this thread and the different perspectives. I think how far one goes in the direction of "negative" classification of developers and TS salespeople is as a result of the different interactions we've had.

For some (like me), the interactions have been varying degrees of negative. From my first TS presentation in the late 80s, where the sales person in essence attacked me for "wasting her time", to a recent presentation where the TS salesperson told my wife she was "lying" about something... we have had some combative, overly aggressive sales approaches that I felt definitely crossed the line. Having said that, I also see the "plight" of the sales person tasked with the responsibility to attempt to sell something at a markup of MANY MANY multiples of true value. Perhaps that is what drives so much of the negativity... 

So on a whole do I think TUG is overly negative? No. I think it is a great informational resource. Do I think some/many TUGGERs use "shorthand" when referring to developers, TS salespeople, and their policies? Probably. Not every sales person is a "lying sales weasel". But we do have to remember that their job - how they get paid - is to sell something at a price MANY MANY times it's actual value. That type of sales challenge seems to attract a certain type of sales person and elicit certain types of sales tactics that most of us would categorize negatively.


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## Kaelyn

*Tug negative?*

There are days when I feel it's a *little* on the negative side. But, I'm THRILLED I found you guys.  I would have made a very expensive mistake without you, and I've learned a lot here.  Without what I've learned, I may have bought into a points system. While that's a great system for some, I've got friends who are having trouble with the "de-valuation" of points, and I'm glad I didn't go that way. 

Are there positive posts, yes. Are there lots of people here who love their timeshares, yes. The positive stuff i got here about navigating the timeshare world and how to pick what will work best for you is why i went ahead and bought, rather than being scared off the whole idea. The negative stuff has some good solid warnings about potential pitfalls and how to avoid them, and great ideas on how to get the most out of your timeshare. 

Would I like a little more positivity, sure, but I don't think we are too negative.


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## easyrider

Many products depreciate. Just because a timeshares resale value drops significantly doesn't really mean that its worthless. Look at cars and computers. I once bought a computer that was outdated the same month that I bought it. I once bought a car that lost 20% of its value as soon as I signed the paperwork. Both of these products served me well just like my timeshares. 

Out of all the products I have purchased over the years my timeshares are the only one that I can still get really excited about. Its really not about "how much you paid" but more about "having a great vacation at a great place". 

I would bet that percentage wise, the number of people that buy a new car that can't afford it are greater than the number of people that buy timeshares that can't afford it. 

I would also bet that the people with the timeshares are more satisfied with their product after 10 years that people buying other products like cars and computers, even if they paid developer price.

So yes, tug is kind of a negative place for the newbie timeshare owner that bought at full price. Tug members do post negatively about not buying resale and it does cause anxiety to some one that suddenly feels they have 0 value in a product they just purchased. 

I remember the first time I found tug. I was just looking for info on timeshares after buying one in Mexico. All of the posts were telling me I screwed up and if I couldn't cancel my contract I would need to learn to use my purchase. This caused me to loose sleep and feel bad but I did cancel, bought resale and learned how to use it. So tug worked out good for me. 

TUG can be viewed as positive or negative depending on a persons perspective. For the timeshare enthusiast like me it is a very positive place. For a TS sales person it could be seen as a negative to overcome.

Bill


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## Passepartout

easyrider said:


> For the timeshare enthusiast like me it is a very positive place. For a TS sales person it could be seen as a negative to overcome.



Not picking on you, Bill, just using your very handy quote.

Regarding the poll as the above quote refers to it: We are the *TIMESHARE USER'S GROUP*, not the Timeshare Seller's Group.

Thus, our opinion may be a bit- OK a whole lot- skewed-, but it is what it is.


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## timeos2

thegeers said:


> I love tug,
> 
> I am a former owner (never plan on owning again)
> I have found great rental properties here for less than the maintenance fee I was paying for my own unit.
> I keep dishing out the $30 every 3 years to keep this group around.
> If I ever did buy one again, I would NEVER buy from the developer.



As things stand today you have the right answer for many people. All I would add is that for those who absolutely love a specific resort - usually not a resort system - may still need to own to assure the ability to stay at that specific resort especially if a time of year or special unit/view is part of the requirements. For most systems (multi-resort clubs or points based groups of resorts) it isn't necessary to own as they have so much inventory they end up making great rental offers. Since they see those rental guests as potential owners they also tend to roll out the red carpet (as well as discounted price) to assure the "buyer" will be ready. If you go in knowing that, take advantage of the deals and (nicely) refuse to buy in you can really get some great resorts at hard to get tmes for deeply discounted pricing. 

Take advantage of the market and use the best "tool" for the job. In timesharing today that is often renting rather than owning as you seem to have discovered.


----------



## timeos2

easyrider said:


> I remember the first time I found tug. I was just looking for info on timeshares after buying one in Mexico. All of the posts were telling me I screwed up and if I couldn't cancel my contract I would need to learn to use my purchase. This caused me to loose sleep and feel bad but I did cancel, bought resale and learned how to use it. So tug worked out good for me.
> 
> 
> Bill



So a bit negative at the start that became a real positive. Nothing wrong with that and overall I'd give it a positive end rating.


----------



## Quiet Pine

gnorth16 said:


> I research everything I buy, so why would it be any different for a timeshare?


Me too. Others have used the word "overthink" about me. I lurked here for 6 (actually 8, but I hate to admit it) years before I bought a timeshare. I rented, I visited, I went on tours, I spent two weekends in Mexico. If it weren't for TUG and finding the right way (for me) to own a timeshare, I never would have bought. Did a salesperson make a commission? No. Am I a timeshare fan? Yes. Am I eager to have my children enjoy my timeshares? Yes. I think it's better that I willingly bought a timeshare than that an owner quit paying MF and saddled the HOA with the upkeep. There's lots of valuable information on TUG and I visit daily to soak it up.


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## TUGBrian

I guess my goal is to have TUG be a site that is a benefit for all Timeshare Owners who find it... or in other words, any timeshare owner would be better of at the very least discovering TUG....vs not knowing it exists.

As long as that remains the case, this site will keep on keepin on....positively or negatively =)


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## MichaelColey

easyrider said:


> Many products depreciate. Just because a timeshares resale value drops significantly doesn't really mean that its worthless. Look at cars and computers. I once bought a computer that was outdated the same month that I bought it. I once bought a car that lost 20% of its value as soon as I signed the paperwork. Both of these products served me well just like my timeshares.


Those are two extreme examples, but even they pale compared to timeshare depreciation.

If you buy a $30,000 developer unit at most timeshares and try to sell it the day after your rescission period, you might find that it has depreciated 90-99%.  NOTHING else does that.


----------



## leowis1

I was recently bludgeoned and mauled by our tuggs friends for buying from a developer.  I still think that mathematically my purchase makes sense. I wanted to buy into a points based system to add flexibility to my vacations as my lifestyle changes. So that means either buy from Starwood directly or buy an aftermarket resale mandatory resort. The mandatory resorts are mostly in Hawaii, Bahamas or VirginIslands.  The MF at these resorts is between $1000-$1500 more per year than my Mrytle Beach resort. So while I may have paid an extra $7,000 to $10,000 upfront cost, I'll recover that expense over 10yrs.

Nobody on that thread cared. They saw me getting mauled and participated in the mob.  Secondly, I repeated several times that I only take one nice vacation per year. The ability to recover some of of maintenance fees by converting to Starpoints was lost on this mob. I know I take a bath when converting, but it is an option to help pay for the other vacation. 

If you want Star Options and low maintenance fees, you pretty much have to buy from a developer.


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## Beefnot

leowis1 said:


> I was recently bludgeoned and mauled by our tuggs friends for buying from a developer. I still think that mathematically my purchase makes sense. I wanted to buy into a points based system to add flexibility to my vacations as my lifestyle changes. So that means either buy from Starwood directly or buy an aftermarket resale mandatory resort. The mandatory resorts are mostly in Hawaii, Bahamas or VirginIslands. The MF at these resorts is between $1000-$1500 more per year than my Mrytle Beach resort. So while I may have paid an extra $7,000 to $10,000 upfront cost, I'll recover that expense over 10yrs.
> 
> Nobody on that thread cared. They saw me getting mauled and participated in the mob. Secondly, I repeated several times that I only take one nice vacation per year. The ability to recover some of of maintenance fees by converting to Starpoints was lost on this mob. I know I take a bath when converting, but it is an option to help pay for the other vacation.
> 
> If you want Star Options and low maintenance fees, you pretty much have to buy from a developer.


 
You didn't get mauled because you bought from the developer; you got mauled because you refused to acknowledge that you could have accomplished virtually the same exact thing by spending far less resale. Reread the counterpoints in that thread again, not from the perspective of wanting to defend spending that type of money to the developer (versus vacationing to the Jersey Shore, which was somewhat of a non-sequitur), but from the perspective of "how could I have done what I aim to accomplish" much more cheaply.

I do not like when folks pile on because someone naively made a developer purchase, but I am not so sympathetic when they pile on because someone is stuck on...well, I'll leave it at that.


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## easyrider

MichaelColey said:


> Those are two extreme examples, but even they pale compared to timeshare depreciation.
> 
> If you buy a $30,000 developer unit at most timeshares and try to sell it the day after your rescission period, you might find that it has depreciated 90-99%.  NOTHING else does that.



Thats true enough. It would be impossible to buy from the developer and flip for profit. 
Unlike my car or cpu, my timeshares ( UVC and WM ) have been used for my enjoyment for the most part and will continue to do so for a long time. I really can't place a monetary value on making sandcastles, catching huge fish or any of the other activities our family and friends enjoy while staying in these fantastic resorts.  

Positively, without a doubt, Im very happy with my timeshares. This is what I tell the people that ask me about timeshares because its the truth. I stopped ragging on people who bought from the developer about 6 years back. If some one meets me in the hot tub and tells me they spent 60K on a factional I just say congratulations anymore for the most part. There are exceptions.

Bill


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## leowis1

> you got mauled because you refused to acknowledge that you could have accomplished virtually the same exact thing by spending far less resale.



Great point.  Paying an extra $1000 per year in extra MF with a mandatory resort is by far a better value then paying an extra $10,000 up front when I expect to keep the timeshare for 25yrs.


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## Beefnot

leowis1 said:


> Great point. Paying an extra $1000 per year in extra MF with a mandatory resort is by far a better value then paying an extra $10,000 up front when I expect to keep the timeshare for 25yrs.


 
The one person you cannot save someone from is himself. Especially if he is so blind that he refuses to read the posts in his own thread.

Does this constitute contributing to the TUG negativity?


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## SueDonJ

Beefnot said:


> The one person you cannot save someone from is himself. Especially if he is so blind that he refuses to read the posts in his own thread.
> 
> _Does this constitute contributing to the TUG negativity?_



IMO, yes.  (Hey, you asked.)


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## SmithOp

Beefnot said:


> The one person you cannot save someone from is himself. Especially if he is so blind that he refuses to read the posts in his own thread.
> 
> Does this constitute contributing to the TUG negativity?



Absolutely, he's been castigated in that thread now you bring it up again and expect him to go back and re-read it, then insult him again when he refuses.  Why can't some people on here state their opinion and move on, why does it have to be rubbed in every time he posts? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## TUGBrian

the job of TUG isnt to make someones mind up for them, its merely to present them with the information and let them make an educated decision.

I dont mind much if someone is given all the info and then makes his or her own decision.  What I do not want is for owners to make decisions when only hearing one side of the story and or missing out on some very important facts.


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## dioxide45

The issue the person had was with the threads that are referenced on the Facebook page. If someone frequents the Facebook page and reads only those threads, perhaps I can understand why they feel there is a negative vibe with TUG. If they never come by to read anything else they don't see any positive aspects.

TUG of course is very reseale centric and I can understand taking pride in helping save people tens of thousands of dollars. Isn't that something we all want to do whenever we can?


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## dioxide45

Passepartout said:


> That isn't the model the developers have chosen- though I'm certain they would love it.
> 
> The reality is, NO ONE goes on vacation to buy a timeshare. NO ONE.





SueDonJ said:


> Not true.



While you took Jim's comment very literally, perhaps the ALL CAPS didn't help, I took it rather loosely. Perhaps stated more like 1 in 100 people actually go in to a timeshare presentation with a plan to buy. The reality is that 1 in 5 or so walk out buying something. The developers use incentives to hook people in the door, make a compelling sell and are quite successful in their business model. They have no reason to change. How successful would they be if they only sold to the 1 in 100?


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## SmithOp

How else can you TAKE it when people USE all CAPS FOR EmPhASis?

It's like a virtual finger poke in the chest to me, they get put on my ignore list very quickly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Passepartout

Sorry if my caps were taken as YELLING, but I don't know of another way to portray emphasis in print. If I really were yelling it would look *LIKE THIS*.

Jim


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## Beefnot

SmithOp said:


> Absolutely, he's been castigated in that thread now you bring it up again and expect him to go back and re-read it, then insult him again when he refuses.  Why can't some people on here state their opinion and move on, why does it have to be rubbed in every time he posts?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



I didn't bring it up again, he did. If he didn 't want to get castigated again, he shouldn't rehash trying to get a sympathetic ear to co-sign tone deafness.


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## leowis1

Beef--I didn't start this thread. Do you see a connection between the thread topic and your insults?

I shared my experience which makes mathematical sense.  And I was destroyed. It is illogical to buy a mandatory resort aftermarket to only save $10k to $12k.  The mandatory MF will consume your savings in a few years. I made that point in the other thread and it didn't matter.

It was like you were a bunch of mindless bullies on a school bus terrorizing an innocent kid. Shame on you.


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## dioxide45

The thing is that there are very few people here that are unhappy with their timeshare ownership, whether they bought developer or resale. The majority of timeshare owners are also very happy with their ownership and the majority also bought from the developer. Timeshares are a great way to take great vacations that we otherwise wouldn't without timeshare. The fact that we do it with resale purchases doesn't make those that bought developer any less happy with their ownership.


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## Beefnot

leowis1 said:


> Beef--I didn't start this thread. Do you see a connection between the thread topic and your insults?
> 
> I shared my experience which makes mathematical sense.  And I was destroyed. It is illogical to buy a mandatory resort aftermarket to only save $10k to $12k.  The mandatory MF will consume your savings in a few years. I made that point in the other thread and it didn't matter.
> 
> It was like you were a bunch of mindless bullies on a school bus terrorizing an innocent kid. Shame on you.



I wasn't talking about you starting the thread. i wouldn't have thought twice about you had you not come into the thread rehashing your justifications for buying from the developer. As for your mathematical rationale, you still refuse to read, or at least comprehend, the two links that I pointed you too in your other thread that clearly outline how you could have gotten the same or more StarOptions for similar MF. 

If someone made a mistake and acknowledges it, I have been the first one to tell other TUGgers to lay off the heavy-handed lectures and condescension about why that person would spend all that money without researching first.  But I feel no such obligation for mercy when a person seeks to use faulty logic, murky math, or outright untruths....kinda like all those TS salespeople we TUGgers love to escoriate.


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## Passepartout

Play nice. No reason to open old wounds or rehash old arguments. This is not the time or place.


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## SmithOp

Beefnot said:


> I didn't bring it up again, he did. If he didn 't want to get castigated again, he shouldn't rehash trying to get a sympathetic ear to co-sign tone deafness.



You are an intelligent guy Beef, there is nothing to be gained by beating the lesser blessed into submission.  That's the negativity I see.  This is an opinion poll started by the owner, everyone should be allowed to express an opinion, even if it's based on faulty math.


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## laurac260

Is there negativity on TUG about timeshares?  Absolutely there is!  We see it every day.

BUT....   Before I found TUG it was my impression, and the impression of many, many folks, that only a sucker would be sucked into buying a timeshare.  

So, who's calling who negative anyway?


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## ampaholic

Well, if I hadn't found TUG I would not be a timeshare owner. TUG is what got me past the negativity in my mind that had built up from just investigating TS's a little, so thanks Brian.

We will see some negativity here on occasion as those who buy retail and then discover TUG bring their experiences here and flop them on the table - hoping we can steer them out of or around a sad, bad decision. Such things as "did I pay to much?" or "did I get ripped off?" will always be a part of TUG (I hope).

Tuggers are great for the most part - and even when we do disagree it's more like a sibling squabble where Denise (mom) has to tell us to knock it off


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## DaveNV

ampaholic said:


> Well, if I hadn't found TUG I would not be a timeshare owner. TUG is what got me past the negativity in my mind that had built up from just investigating TS's a little, so thanks Brian.
> 
> We will see some negativity here on occasion as those who buy retail and then discover TUG bring their experiences here and flop them on the table - hoping we can steer them out of or around a sad, bad decision. Such things as "did I pay to much?" or "did I get ripped off?" will always be a part of TUG (I hope).
> 
> Tuggers are great for the most part - and even when we do disagree it's more like a sibling squabble where Denise (mom) has to tell us to knock it off




Rick's comments are spot-on. And let's not forget, the OP was referencing a Facebook page that has selected posts on it. The guy complaining needs to spend some time on the full Tug site to get a larger view. 

Tug speaks the truth about the industry, based on real-world experiences, good or bad, that people encounter.  It is a fact that timeshare salespeople are commonly preying on the uninformed, and using undue pressure and lies to get people to sign.  If timeshare salespeople were more forthcoming with truthful information, there wouldn't be any negativity, and the overall industry would have a better image.

Dave


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## PamMo

TUG is the best source for information on timesharing, and has definitely made a positive impact on my timeshare and travel experiences. The vast amount of shared knowledge is invaluable for researching the purchase, sale, and use of timeshares. I'm very grateful to Brian for developing/maintaining this site, and all the Tuggers and guests who post questions, tips, reviews, recommendations, sightings, MarketPlace ads, etc. I can't count the ways I've benefited from TUG, as I'm always learning something useful.

I'll add that the negativity of some posters can get tiresome, though. Some posts seem to draw Pavlovian responses, which can go on and on in a condescending tone. A special thanks to the moderators who attempt to keep the conversation open and civil! (Another shout out to "moms" Denise and SueDonJ.)


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## Beefnot

PamMo said:


> I'll add that the negativity of some posters can get tiresome, though. Some posts seem to draw Pavlovian responses, which can go on and on in a condescending tone.


 
Yes, alas, my Achilles heel...


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## FL Guy

I am very glad I stumbled onto TUG in researching timeshares.  

My perspective of timeshares was always negative.  I only knew of a couple of timeshare owners in years past and their perspective and experience was 100% negative.  They always complained about being pressured into buying something they didn't understand and never being able to use it satisfactorily, yet having to pay the ongoing fees every year.  

About 6 years ago I went on a Marriott vacation at Myrtle Beach as the result of a cold call vacation offer I agreed to at a weak moment.  The treatment I received at the timeshare did not favorably enhance my opinion of timeshares.  Instead of the timeshare unit I was promised for my vacation, I was lodged in a hotel.  I went for the required presentation.  After I firmly told the salesperson I would not buy anything without having an opportunity to think it over and research it, they turned to belittling and demeaning me for taking up their time.  I actually was interested and saw the benefit of ownership, but the "buy now or never" made the "no" decision for me.  

After that Marriott presentation, I was now on the timeshare marketing call list and at least 3-4 times a year receive calls notifying me I have been upgraded to "platinum status" and eligible for a wonderful vacation  to XXXX.  I continued to decline the offers.  

Mid-year 2012 I received another marketing call offering a 4 night vacation stay at a discounted rate.  The spiel they used was atypical to ones I'd gotten previously and initially didn't realize it was for a timeshare.  But I continued to listen, say "no", them sweeten the offer, say "no", them sweeten the offer, etc. until I finally agreed.  It was a Bluegreen resort.  I stayed at The Fountains in Orlando and it is a beautiful property.  I "mostly" said "no" at the sales presentation.  I did not buy a timeshare, but bought a "sampler package".  The bonus timeshare week in Williamsburg I received for going to the presentation and the stays I booked in timeshares from that "sampler package" convinced me that timesharing was indeed a desirable means of vacationing for me, but I was not convinced the cost of the developer prices made sense.  After attending the sales presentation for Wyndham at Williamsburg, (and saying "no" yet again), I went back to the room and started looking for timeshares on Ebay to see what timeshares resold for.  I was amazed at the low prices and decided I needed to do further research to determine if timeshare ownership made sense for me.  That research eventually led me to TUG.  

I've read countless threads on TUG and have found a wealth of knowledge, for which I am extremely grateful.  I started watching Ebay auctions to get an idea of what was selling and for how much.  I narrowed my search to a couple of options and even (unsuccessfully) bid on 2-3 listings.  Then, voila!!  In checking the Marketplace Ads, I saw a listing for exactly one of the timeshares I had been watching on Ebay.  They were only asking for the closing costs and transfer fee to be paid.  I was/am so happy.  

Now that I am an owner, I joined TUG as a member and TUG remains an ongoing and excellent resource for information.  

In terms of the original query as to whether TUG is too negative.  Overall, I don't think so.  I'm sure timeshare sales people consider anything which sheds light on the very murky information world that is timeshares as negative and a threat.  Like others here, I am a little concerned at the "broad brush" usage for all sales people.  In the 5 presentations I have attended in my lifetime, I only have had one (the Marriott one) that I truly deem was an unpleasant experience.  (One that I went on with Bluegreen was a little "odd", but not really unpleasant.)  The sales people must make sales to keep their jobs.  Sadly, some, in the process of attempting to do that, cross the lines of truth and have become very adept at manipulative half-truths.  They are very skilled at extoling the positives of timeshare ownership and even more skilled at minimizing or negating the negative aspects.  

As far as the posters on TUG, I have found, by far, the majority to be very helpful and patient.  There a few, however, that seemingly post mostly negative or sarcastic or demeaning messages, especially toward "newbies" or others who post opinions contrary to theirs.  Just because someone has been a member/poster longer than someone else doesn't automatically make your opinion more valuable.  You know what they say about opinions.......

Keep up the good work Brian!!!    I hope TUG is around for a very long time as a resource for all those who have already discovered it and those who will discover it in the future.  

Rod


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