# How does DVC work - in a nutshell



## marinskas (Oct 24, 2013)

Forgive me if you are an expert but I know my way around HGVC club but clueless in DVC.

Can someone compare/contrast the two or direct me to the thread if there is one?

Also what benefits are there to purchase into DVC as opposed to purchasing HGVC and exchanging to DVC via RCI?

I am looking to purchase a timeshare at resale and not sure whether HGVC or DVC is the way to go....

Thank you!!


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## vacationhopeful (Oct 24, 2013)

marinskas said:


> ...
> I am looking to purchase a timeshare at resale and not sure whether HGVC or DVC is the way to go....
> 
> Thank you!!



DVC is expensive to buy - either resale or direct. 

I own DVC and rent my DVC points out. I have 90 points which is not enough to book more than a ST in mid season (unless I bank and borrow - use PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE points == 270 points) which gets me 1 DVC vacation every 3 years. Then it is barely worth getting a AP - have to go and stay off site.

I use my Wyndham points to exchange back in for 1bdr unit is mid season - for less money than my DVC studio. And as another poster stated, I am very flexible on my dates and resorts for my stays.

BUT if you want to go PRIME/HOLIDAY season, you need to buy the DVC POINTS needed at the resort your family WANTS.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 24, 2013)

It will cost about $13K to buy around 250 points on the resale market, and those points will have fees of about $1,250 year.  That will get a 2 bedroom unit during most seasons at a few of the resorts for a full week.  

I don't think of it as a huge buy-in cost because it's Disney.  

Cheaper annual passes is a good reason to buy DVC.  It's a great price, and sometimes they give an even better deal.  

Wish I would have purchased DVC back in 1991, our first trip ever.


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## chriskre (Oct 24, 2013)

marinskas said:


> Forgive me if you are an expert but I know my way around HGVC club but clueless in DVC.
> 
> Can someone compare/contrast the two or direct me to the thread if there is one?
> 
> ...



I own in both clubs and like them both.

DVC booking is free and you can change reservations as much as you want.
As you know HGVC is not free but you can change if you pay the upgrade fee or do it online.  

DVC has free guest certificates.  
HGVC charges $39 for this privilege.

DVC allows you to rent your points at any resort without a problem.
HGVC doesn't let you rent your points unless it's your home week.

DVC you can rent up to 25 points for $15 each if you are short a few points.
HGVC you cannot rent extra points if you are short.

DVC doesn't have Open Season but does do club hotel discounts.
HGVC has open season rentals.


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## frank808 (Oct 24, 2013)

chriskre said:


> I own in both clubs and like them both.
> 
> DVC booking is free and you can change reservations as much as you want.
> As you know HGVC is not free but you can change if you pay the upgrade fee or do it online.
> ...



DVC lets you bank points to the following year for free.
HGVC charges you $69 to rescue points.

DVC allows you to waitlist a resort.
HGVC you have to find the unit as there is no waitlist.

HGVC charges you a yearly club fee of $136 for 2014.

HGVC will nickle and dime you to death with all their fees.  The maintenance on 7000 points will be about 3/4 what DVC charges for an average 2br.  

Both are great systems and complement each other well for our travels.  Also the open season rates for HGVC can't be BEAT!


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## stanleyu (Oct 25, 2013)

The questions I would ask are how often do you plan on going to Disney World and how super-flexible can you be in your travel plans?. RickandCindy posted that it would cost you $13K to buy 250 points. Not so. Not at today's prices. More like $19K. But if you are happy with non-prime times and you don't have a large family, you might be able to get by with 120 points, rent a studio instead of a 2BR,  and save half the costs. If you buy DVC points there are three things you can do with them:
1. use them to get on-site rooms at Disney World (or Disneyland, Hawaii, Vero Beach, or Hilton Head).
2. rent them out, as one of the other posters mentioned.
3. Trade them in RCI for some other Time Share.
Of the three, #3 is your worst choice, because you are always trading a premium priced week for something of lesser value. If you rarely will go to Disney World I would highly recommend buying something else.

Now the other option is to trade into DVC through RCI. The main advantage in this as that it is MUCH cheaper than buying DVC points up front. In my case I have an RCI-affiliated timeshare and am in the process of purchasing DVC points. I have also owned DVC in the past. 

The main problem with trading into DVC is that it is much harder to do than if you own DVC. By owning DVC points you are able to reserve any DVC room from ANY DVC resort that is not already reserved. Through RCI you only have available to you those weeks that are deposited into RCI. This is a far smaller pool of rooms, and there is a very great ongoing demand for these rooms. Practically speaking, the best way to do this is to put in an ongoing search at least 7 months prior to your desired arrival date.

I personally have had pretty good success trading into DVC. But them, I am able to request far in advance and my travel plans are normally very flexible. By this I mean I usually have a six-week window and several resorts. But as said, I am also in the process of buying DVC points. That is because of late it has become much harder to trade into DVC, and I believe the extra up-front cost is worthwhile.

Hope this helps.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 25, 2013)

> RickandCindy posted that it would cost you $13K to buy 250 points. Not so. Not at today's prices.



Passed ROFR and closed on 250 points just a few weeks ago.  So not that crazy.  It was Saratoga Springs.


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## alwysonvac (Oct 25, 2013)

marinskas said:


> Can someone compare/contrast the two or direct me to the thread if there is one?



With HGVC, you purchase a week at a specific resort and your points are determined based on your deeded week (unit size/type and season).
For example, with HGVC you could own a one bedroom plus during platinum season at the Lagoon Tower in the Hilton Hawaiian Village which will give you 6,200 HGVC points

With DVC, your points are associated with specific resort and use year. The Use Year is simply the 12-month period which an owner can USE their points. DVC is a pure point based system therefore your points are not associated to a specific week. DVC is also a Right to Use (RTU) which means your DVC points are not good forever. They will expire in 2042, 2054, 2057 or 2060, depending on which resort you buy into. The minimum number of points you can own is 25 DVC points. 
For example, with DVC you could own 50 points with a March use year at Disney's Saratoga Springs and Spa and 100 points with a June use year at Disney's Vero Beach.

With HGVC, if you want more points, you have to purchase another deeded week. 
With DVC, you can simply purchase additional points (minimum of 25 DVC points).

Similar to HGVC, DVC has a home resort booking period (*11 months prior to checkout for DVC vs 12 months for HGVC*) then everything opens up for booking at any resort (*7 months prior to checkout DVC vs 9 months for HGVC*).

With HGVC, only points earned in the use year can be used during the home resort booking window. 
With DVC, borrowed and banked points associated with the same home resort can also be used during the home resort booking window.

*With DVC, there is no minimum night requirement. With DVC, you can book any number of nights at any time including the home resort booking period.*With HGVC, you have to reserve your full week during the home resort window (12 months before check-out), three night minimum during the Club Season (9 months before check-out) and a two night minimum during Open Season (1 month before check-out).

DVC doesn't offer nightly rental rates (like HGVC Open Season) however  DVC members can rent/sell DVC points from other members (one transfer in or out is allowed per use year). DVC members can also rent up to 25 additional DVC points directly from Disney in order to complete a DVC reservation. DVC members can sometimes get up to 25% off the rack rate at DVC resort only (NOTE: Disney decides when this offer is available).

HGVC MFs are lower than DVC however DVC MF is all inclusive. DVC's MFs are higher because it includes all administrative fees for reservations at the DVC resorts. With DVC, there are no additional club fee and no additional transaction fees (for making reservations at a DVC resort, changing/cancelling reservations, banking, borrowing, etc). The DVC's MFs are also higher because it covers the onsite operational and administrative support from the Walt DISNEY WORLD Resort (i.e. member benefits such as resort transportation, package delivery from the parks to the resort, etc).




marinskas said:


> Also what benefits are there to purchase into DVC as opposed to purchasing HGVC and exchanging to DVC via RCI?



There are lots of DVC deposits in both RCI Weeks and RCI Points. It's currently not hard to exchange into the DVC Resorts via RCI but the rules can change at anytime. RCI exchange fee will continue to rise (currently $199) and DVC resort fee (currently $95) may also rise.

There have been DVC deposits in RCI for all of the WDW resorts (including Bay Lake), Vero Beach, Hilton Head and Disneyland's Grand Californian. 
NOTE: Aulani deposits haven't been sighted yet.
TUG Members can search the TUG Sightings Forum for DVC sightings - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3

However if you have your heart set on a specific DVC resort/room category and/or if you're extremely limited in your travel dates, it's best to buy a small number of DVC points to have the flexibility to book exactly what you want.
NOTE: DVC provides a lot of flexibility. With DVC you can stay any number of nights and check-in any day of the week. You can also bank and borrow DVC points to go every two or three years.

Keep in mind that there is more RCI availability at DisneyWorld at Disney's Saratoga Springs Resort (SSR) and Disney's Old Key West (OKW) simply because these are the two largest DVC resorts. In addition, the Grand Californian at Disneyland is the smallest DVC Resort with least amount of available rooms (23 Dedicated 2BR villas, 23 Lockoffs and 2 Grand Villas for a total of 48 villas). So I won't expect to see a lot of RCI availability at the Grand Californian 

Number of villas at each DVC Resort - http://disboards.com/showthread.php?p=43063852 (see post #3)

Because of the high demand, you will not see DVC resorts available online in RCI for long. These are booked within minutes especially the two bedrooms & rare three bedrooms. So it's best to place an Ongoing Search Request with RCI to snag these units as soon as they become available. What's available online are the leftovers after all ongoing search request have been satisfied. 
NOTE: Ongoing Searches only apply to RCI Weeks inventory. A manual search is required for DVC deposits in RCI Points inventory.


Additional Information
DVC Point Charts for each resort - http://disboards.com/showpost.php?p=43063935&postcount=8
DVC Historical MF per point for each resort - http://disboards.com/showpost.php?p=43063839&postcount=2
Best source for questions about buying - http://www.mouseowners.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4
Current DVC Pricing & Promotions - http://dvcnews.com/index.php/dvc-program/financial/pricing-a-promotions
FAQ for DVC beginners -  http://dvcnews.com/index.php/dvc-for-beginners
Largest DVC Resale Agent - http://www.dvc-resales.com/dvclisting.cfm

Dedicated DVC forums 
Disboards - http://disboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7
Mouseowners - http://www.mouseowners.com/forums/
DVC News - http://dvcnews.com/forum/forum.php


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## chrisdu (Oct 27, 2013)

*Is DVC really expensive?*

I saw quite a few people on the tug saying DVC is expensive, but given the rentability and high resell value, they are probably among the best value for money in the timeshare world. Using rickandcindy's price as an example, initial purchase cost $13500, mf over 10 years $12500, rental income over 10 years $13750 (assuming you go to Disney every other year and rent the points out for the years you are not going $11*250 points * 5 years), after 10 years you sell your points for  $10000, so for the 5 years you go to Disney, your total cost is $2250, or $450 each trip. That's 2bedroom for a week in Disney! If you factor in the discount on AP, the flexibility you get and prime season you cant get through exchange, I seriously doubt any other timeshare purchase can beat that, provided you want to vacation in Disney. Of course there are variables to that simple calculation, such as mf increase, drop down in rental price and resell price after 10 years, but given it is disney and there are loads of people wanting to vacation in Disney, I don't see things change in a big way


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## SMHarman (Oct 28, 2013)

chrisdu said:


> I saw quite a few people on the tug saying DVC is expensive, but given the rentability and high resell value, they are probably among the best value for money in the timeshare world. Using rickandcindy's price as an example, initial purchase cost $13500, mf over 10 years $12500, rental income over 10 years $13750 (assuming you go to Disney every other year and rent the points out for the years you are not going $11*250 points * 5 years), after 10 years you sell your points for  $10000, so for the 5 years you go to Disney, your total cost is $2250, or $450 each trip. That's 2bedroom for a week in Disney! If you factor in the discount on AP, the flexibility you get and prime season you cant get through exchange, I seriously doubt any other timeshare purchase can beat that, provided you want to vacation in Disney. Of course there are variables to that simple calculation, such as mf increase, drop down in rental price and resell price after 10 years, but given it is disney and there are loads of people wanting to vacation in Disney, I don't see things change in a big way


I'll try another version of that and this time use the [enter key].
Your Math with a tweak...
Purchase Cost is $13500.  Closing is another $500.  So up front you are dropping $14,000.
If you left that $14,000 invested in the S&P 500 you would earn another $11,072 in returns (capital and coupon), so in 10 years time that $14k would be worth $25,072.

MF over 10 years $12,500
Rental income over 10 years$13,750
Sale $10k

So Cashflows of -13500-500-12500+13750-11072+10000=-13,822

Your Math had the weekly ownership cost of $450 each trip for 5 trips, if I add in the 11,072/5 = -2214 a week to your math that makes each week cost $2,664.  That is the number you should compare to renting.  Renting by your math is 11*250=$2,750.

Now using the Timeshare Cost of Ownership Comparison spreadsheet with the inputs of $14,000 to buy $1350MF, 2% increase in MF each year, 2% inflation, 6% investment return, $10k sale price, 10year ownership and $374 nightly ($2625 weekly) the calculation comes out $885 ahead (or about $86 per week you use) 6% ahead so buying is marginally better than renting (not accounting for parc discounts etc which improve that number) and sale transaction costs and sale price impact that $885 quickly.  If you sell for 9k then you are marginally down, sell for $11k then you are 1,885 up etc.  A conundrum with disney is that if you hold to maturity then the sale price is 0.

Renting
You can rent enough points for your 5 weeks over 10 years for $13750.
You still have $14,000 in the bank earning 6% or $11,072 over the 10 years.
You still have the $12,500 you don't need to pay in MF.

So you can pay for the 5 weeks of rental costing $13750 with the $12,500 you would have spent in MF and another $1,250 of the $11072 of investment return you did not forego.

At the end of the 10 years you don't need to find a buyer and you have $14000+$11072-$1250(13,750 to buy points - 12,500 you would have spent in MF)=$23822 in your investment account.
Of course this does not take into account the discounts you get by being in the DVC as mentioned in this thread, though does make your asset base more liquid.

My Thoughts
All this truly validates the concept of buying enough DVC for what you want, in this case instead of buying a 250 point contract and renting half, buy a 125 point contract and bank / borrow so every year you have enough points.  Your capital outlay is halved you have no headaches and commissions of renting points, you can buy points from DVC or another owner if you are running short.

Then you are getting a $7,250k buy in, $675 a year in MF (so $1350 per use), discounts at Disney etc and $6,750 in the investment account.


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## JimMIA (Oct 28, 2013)

stanleyu said:


> RickandCindy posted that it would cost you $13K to buy 250 points. Not so. Not at today's prices. More like $19K.


TODAY's prices might be more in the area of $16,000-$17,000.  Anybody who pays $76 for SSR is paying too much.  

But today's prices reflect a recent, and IMHO temporary, spike. Right now there is not as much inventory as there has been, and medium sized SSR contracts seem to be clearing ROFR in the $60-$65 pp range.  

Previously, they were clearing in the low 50's.  In time, I think they'll return to that level.


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## JimMIA (Oct 28, 2013)

Having owned DVC, and having made more than 30 DVC trips, I will say this:  DVC is a very good product...IF

You visit WDW at least every other year...*AND*
Staying offsite would seriously degrade the enjoyment of your vacation -- so you REALLY want to stay ONsite...*AND*
You plan to use your points only for DVC WDW stays (in the other destinations where DVC has resorts, there are other better, less-expensive, options).

The downsides to DVC are:

DVC IS expensive.  It is expensive to buy, it's expensive in terms of MF's, and the points costs at many DVC resorts are high to VERY high.
DVC is *EXTREMELY LIMITED*.  They will soon have 12 total resorts in their system, 11 open and a planned new one at Poly.  8 of the 12 are at WDW -- the others are at Vero Beach, FL zzz, Hilton Head Is, SC, Anaheim, CA rolleyes, and Ko Olina, Oahu, HI (HINT: wrong part of the wrong island).  That's it -- nothing more.
Well, there is a little bit more.  You can use RCI.  But it's not really RCI -- it's an RCI Lite thing.  No direct access to RCI; you have to go through Disney MS.  And you only have access to less than 600 of the more than 3,200 RCI resorts.  DVCers do find acceptable exchanges that way, but it's not real RCI.


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## JimMIA (Oct 28, 2013)

To give you a cost comparison, we are staying at DVC in December on a Wyndham/RCI exchange.

If I had used my former DVC OKW points (OKW is a low-acquisition, low-MF resort), the week would have cost me about *$1,670*...or a tiny bit more.

The Wyndham/RCI exchange cost me a little less than *$860* -- including the $199 RCI fee and the $95 "because-we-can" DVC fee.


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## chrisdu (Oct 28, 2013)

Interesting perspective, but unfortunately you misunderstood the example scenario and that lead to a different conclusion. That is, after I pay the upfront purchase cost, there is no out of pocket expenses for mf because the every other year rental income will cover the annual mf. In other words, over 10 year period, I only use $14k. And towards the end I have $10k in bank after i sell the points. If you count the small surplus from (rent - mf), I will have $11250 in the bank. Whereas in the rental scenario, every time you make a trip to disney you will have to withdraw from the fund of $14k, so it will never generate $11k interest as you suggested. Also depending on how you travel over the 10 years (evenly spaced over 10 years, or 3 years in a row to start and then twice over next 7 years), your balance will vary quite substantially. Best case if you make all 5 trips towards the end of 10 years, which allows you to generate max interest from the $14k, the rental scenario barely makes even with purchase (using 7% interest income no inflation considered)


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## SMHarman (Oct 28, 2013)

chrisdu said:


> Interesting perspective, but unfortunately you misunderstood the example scenario and that lead to a different conclusion. That is, after I pay the upfront purchase cost, there is no out of pocket expenses for mf because the every other year rental income will cover the annual mf. In other words, over 10 year period, I only use $14k. And towards the end I have $10k in bank after i sell the points. If you count the small surplus from (rent - mf), I will have $11250 in the bank. Whereas in the rental scenario, every time you make a trip to disney you will have to withdraw from the fund of $14k, so it will never generate $11k interest as you suggested. Also depending on how you travel over the 10 years (evenly spaced over 10 years, or 3 years in a row to start and then twice over next 7 years), your balance will vary quite substantially. Best case if you make all 5 trips towards the end of 10 years, which allows you to generate max interest from the $14k, the rental scenario barely makes even with purchase (using 7% interest income no inflation considered)


OK I see where you are coming from now but we are both shifting a lot of variables around.  Your math is better at 56 a point and 6% interest.  
Make that 65 a point and the ownership option is less appealing.  Increase the investment return and it is less appealing.  Increase the MF and it is less appealing.

In conclusion I'll agree with Miami Jim...



JimMIA said:


> Having owned DVC, and having made more than 30 DVC trips, I will say this:  DVC is a very good product...IF
> 
> You visit WDW at least every other year...*AND*
> *Staying offsite would seriously degrade the enjoyment of your vacation -- so you REALLY want to stay ONsite...**AND*
> ...


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## chrisdu (Oct 29, 2013)

Yes I agree with you there are lots of variables to the extent that only you can tell if DVC will be suitable to you and your family based on well researched information and careful calculation. I also agree with Miami Jim on his first 3 points. In the end if you don't give a rat about the mouse ^_^ all these cost comparisons are just meaningless. That being said, if you do want to stay on site, then IMHO DVC is a not so expensive option, at least not as many people thought. Yes the buy-in cost is high, mf is high,but it is backed up by a high demand in both rental and resale. It is so easy to rent or unload if you don't need the points for the year, or for good and all. I guess what I am trying to say is the total cost of ownership for dvc is still very reasonable compared to other options (such as purchase worldmark and exchange through RCI).


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## dundey (Oct 29, 2013)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Passed ROFR and closed on 250 points just a few weeks ago.  So not that crazy.  It was Saratoga Springs.



WOw, really!?  Where did you get that deal!
$52 / pt is unheard of right now, even at SSR


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## stanleyu (Oct 29, 2013)

dundey said:


> WOw, really!?  Where did you get that deal!
> $52 / pt is unheard of right now, even at SSR



I too find that hard to believe. I see nothing out there at that point value. Not unless you want to go with Hilton Head or Vero Beach. Also,the more points you buy, usually the less per point you have to pay.

I just went out and looked, and the cheapest listing I now see for SS with usage in 2014 is $70/point. Lots of them out there at $75-80/point. Also some at $69/point where the first usage is 2015.. But nothing even close to $52.


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## chriskre (Oct 29, 2013)

stanleyu said:


> I too find that hard to believe. I see nothing out there at that point value. Not unless you want to go with Hilton Head or Vero Beach. Also,the more points you buy, usually the less per point you have to pay.
> 
> I just went out and looked, and the cheapest listing I now see for SS with usage in 2014 is $70/point. Lots of them out there at $75-80/point. Also some at $69/point where the first usage is 2015.. But nothing even close to $52.



You won't see these deals on the websites.
You will need to work with a broker in order to find these deals.


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## SMHarman (Oct 29, 2013)

chrisdu said:


> Yes I agree with you there are lots of variables to the extent that only you can tell if DVC will be suitable to you and your family based on well researched information and careful calculation. I also agree with Miami Jim on his first 3 points. In the end if you don't give a rat about the mouse ^_^ all these cost comparisons are just meaningless. That being said, if you do want to stay on site, then IMHO DVC is a not so expensive option, at least not as many people thought. Yes the buy-in cost is high, mf is high,but it is backed up by a high demand in both rental and resale. It is so easy to rent or unload if you don't need the points for the year, or for good and all. I guess what I am trying to say is the total cost of ownership for dvc is still very reasonable compared to other options (such as purchase worldmark and exchange through RCI).





stanleyu said:


> I too find that hard to believe. I see nothing out there at that point value. Not unless you want to go with Hilton Head or Vero Beach. Also,the more points you buy, usually the less per point you have to pay.
> 
> I just went out and looked, and the cheapest listing I now see for SS with usage in 2014 is $70/point. Lots of them out there at $75-80/point. Also some at $69/point where the first usage is 2015.. But nothing even close to $52.



Which makes my math about the rent the points vs buy even more nuanced.

250 points at 70 each is $17500+500 closing = $18000 you are pulling out of investments.   This should be generating about $1080 in returns each year or $14235 over the duration.  

Your Rental income, which would now be your rental expense was $13,750 which means at the end you get to keep all $18k of the initial capital plus might even have a few $ left over (though probably not, as you note, you would struggle to get the full $14k of investment income due to the earlier withdrawals to pay for the vacations but when you consider that you were willing to see your 14k of investment drop to 10k so in this case the 18k of investment drop to $12780 that additional loss of $5,500 also does not occur.


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## JimMIA (Oct 29, 2013)

chrisdu said:


> Interesting perspective, but unfortunately you misunderstood the example scenario and that lead to a different conclusion. That is, after I pay the upfront purchase cost, there is no out of pocket expenses for mf because the every other year rental income will cover the annual mf. In other words, over 10 year period, I only use $14k. And towards the end I have $10k in bank after i sell the points. If you count the small surplus from (rent - mf), I will have $11250 in the bank. Whereas in the rental scenario, every time you make a trip to disney you will have to withdraw from the fund of $14k, so it will never generate $11k interest as you suggested. Also depending on how you travel over the 10 years (evenly spaced over 10 years, or 3 years in a row to start and then twice over next 7 years), your balance will vary quite substantially. Best case if you make all 5 trips towards the end of 10 years, which allows you to generate max interest from the $14k, the rental scenario barely makes even with purchase (using 7% interest income no inflation considered)


If I am allowed to make 379 assumptions, I can prove anything.  You know what happens when we ASS-U-ME...right?

What if you don't rent all the points?  (happens frequently) 

What if a big rental cancels at the last minute? (has happened)  

What if your renter trashes the villa and you end up with the bill? (has happened)  

What happens if the renter charges purchases to YOUR room and your account gets frozen? (has happened).  

What if DVC clamps down on renting? (has happened)

Ooops!


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## JimMIA (Oct 29, 2013)

dundey said:


> WOw, really!?  Where did you get that deal!
> $52 / pt is unheard of right now, even at SSR


I have no doubt chriskre got that price...nor that it cleared ROFR...nor that chriskre is a happy camper.  

What you _see_ ain't necessarily all that's out there.


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## chrisdu (Nov 1, 2013)

JimMIA said:


> If I am allowed to make 379 assumptions, I can prove anything.  You know what happens when we ASS-U-ME...right?
> 
> What if you don't rent all the points?  (happens frequently)
> 
> ...



There are risks with anything and everything. Its all about do the research, take the due dillegence, evaluate the benefits and risks,  and make an educated decision. In real life we are always making assumptions, explicitly or inexplicitly. We are assuming we are not gonna die tomorrow. When we buy a timeshare, we are assuming it will not bankrupt tomorrow. All the things you point out are valid and they are just something people have to consider when they make the decision. Again I just presented the way I look at it. Not trying to prove anything to anyone. You can take it or leave it.


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