# [ 2017 ] New Westin Flex



## Markus

Just heard from a Corporate rep that Vistana will be launching a third points based product, the Westin Flex. This will be in addition to the Sheraton Flex and Aventuras programs. It is expected to go into active sales on January 4th, and will include 6 resorts; the 2 in California, 3 in Hawaii, and 1ski property. Pricing is not currently available. Something to watch for early in the New Year.

Markus


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## dsmrp

Thanks for the heads up.


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## bizaro86

Interesting. I'm curious what the ski property would be. I thought westin riverfront was sold out, and there are no other ski resorts where they have the right to develop Westin branded timeshares, so they would have to negotiate with Marriott International to add anything new.

Maybe it'll just be a few weeks at riverfront...


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## Helios

Interesting.  This could be appealing with 12 month access to HI and a Westin Ski property (whatever that means).


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## bizaro86

I wonder if their were legal reasons they couldn't include the Mexican and US inventory in one trust. A westin flex that included 2x Mexico, 3x Hawaii, 2x Palm Springs and 1x ski seems like a potentially killer product.


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## Markus

I think it will be an apealing product. Makes one wonder though about VSN as a network, when all these properties are being sold bundled, almost like mini-networks.

Markus


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## cubigbird

Sounds like Vistana needs more inventory to sell.  With new resort inventory not coming online fast enough and most resorts sold out they have to create something to sell.  Hence the birth of these flex programs.  It's just a churning of an existing product, telling the weeks owners what they own is inferior and trying to sell it all over again.


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## cubigbird

Markus said:


> I think it will be an apealing product. Makes one wonder though about VSN as a network, when all these properties are being sold bundled, almost like mini-networks.
> 
> Markus


 
If it's anything like Sheraton Flex and Aventuras, I'm sure it will be expensive, voluntary, and of little value.  Get ready for the owners update to devalue what you have in attempt to get you to buy what you own again.  You can get access to all the resorts now with Staroptions.


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## vacationtime1

Markus said:


> Just heard from a Corporate rep that Vistana will be launching a third points based product, the Westin Flex. This will be in addition to the Sheraton Flex and Aventuras programs. It is expected to go into active sales on January 4th, and will include 6 resorts; the 2 in California, 3 in Hawaii, and 1ski property. Pricing is not currently available. Something to watch for early in the New Year.
> 
> Markus



Vistana will be selling this as flexible holidays at Vail and Maui, but most of the weeks that will be owned by the "Westin Flex Trust" (or whatever they will call it) will likely be in Palm Desert and probably not be prime weeks.

I agree with the prior posts: this is a bad deal all around -- except for Vistana whose business plan is apparently to re-package old goods, add some sizzle, and sell for a multiple of its intrinsic value.

My major regret is that I foresee WPORV exchanges through both Interval and StarOptions becoming more difficult.  Vistana controls Interval deposits and will make sure Westin Flex has WPORV inventory if at all possible.


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## DeniseM

I'm not surprised - since they made Nanea a Flex resort, it was only a matter of time before they created a new group.

This is a way for VSE to repackage Westin Mission Hills which is struggling as a voluntary resort with high maintenance fees. 

During the 12-8 month owner's priority period, Flex owners will only be able to exchange for reservations _in the flex pool_ - not the deeded weeks inventory that already belongs to owners. 

From the start, this will really impact Nanea, because all Nanea reservations will be available to everyone in this group during the owner's reservation period.  But at least to begin with, it shouldn't impact the other 3 Hawaii resorts as much.  But eventually, as more and more deeds are sucked into the Flex pool inventory, there will be less and less Staroption availability.

(If I was a Nanea owner, I would be be po'd about this!)

It will probably mean that after Jan. 4th, you will only be able to buy FlexOptions from the developer at the 6 resorts in this group, but you can still buy deeded weeks on the resale market.  However, it may mean that VSE will actively pursue more resales, or exercise ROFR more often, to acquire inventory for the Flex Pool.

As Robert said, this is a bad deal for owners/buyers, and a good deal for VSE.


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## dsmrp

vacationtime1 said:


> My major regret is that I foresee WPORV exchanges through both Interval and StarOptions becoming more difficult.  Vistana controls Interval deposits and will make sure Westin Flex has WPORV inventory if at all possible.



Why just WPORV? Do you just regret not buying at WPORV?


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## vacationtime1

dsmrp said:


> Why just WPORV? Do you just regret not buying at WPORV?



My assumption is that WPORV (not Nanea) will be the third Hawaii resort in the rumored Westin Flex group.

Zero regrets about not buying Princeville.  It's a beautiful resort -- we have stayed there several times -- but it has very high MF's (about $2,800, iirc).  To date it has been an easy StarOptions exchange and it has not been a difficult exchange through Interval if one has a Vistana preference unit.  I think exchanging into Princeville could become more difficult.


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## darius

vacationtime1 said:


> My assumption is that WPORV (not Nanea) will be the third Hawaii resort in the rumored Westin Flex group.
> 
> Zero regrets about not buying Princeville.  It's a beautiful resort -- we have stayed there several times -- but it has very high MF's (about $2,800, iirc).  To date it has been an easy StarOptions exchange and it has not been a difficult exchange through Interval if one has a Vistana preference unit.  I think exchanging into Princeville could become more difficult.



I spoke with a corporate sales person today about this.   Apparently, it is going to include WKORV, WKORV-N and WPORV for Hawaii.  (Nanea is NOT included in this offering...).  Also,  there will be no ocean front units included in the weeks - so if you want that premium view, this package will not offer it.     The costs and fees are expected to be higher than the existing Flex products as well.


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## alohakevin

DeniseM said:


> I'm not surprised - since they made Nanea a Flex resort, it was only a matter of time before they created a new group.
> 
> This is a way for VSE to repackage Westin Mission Hills which is struggling as a voluntary resort with high maintenance fees.
> 
> During the 12-8 month owner's priority period, Flex owners will only be able to exchange for reservations _in the flex pool_ - not the deeded weeks inventory that already belongs to owners.
> 
> From the start, this will really impact Nanea, because all Nanea reservations will be available to everyone in this group during the owner's reservation period.  But at least to begin with, it shouldn't impact the other 3 Hawaii resorts as much.  But eventually, as more and more deeds are sucked into the Flex pool inventory, there will be less and less Staroption availability.
> 
> (If I was a Nanea owner, I would be be po'd about this!)
> 
> It will probably mean that after Jan. 4th, you will only be able to buy FlexOptions from the developer at the 6 resorts in this group, but you can still buy deeded weeks on the resale market.  However, it may mean that VSE will actively pursue more resales, or exercise ROFR more often, to acquire inventory for the Flex Pool.
> 
> As Robert said, this is a bad deal for owners/buyers, and a good deal for VSE.




Does this mean WKORV and ORVN will be partially mandatory ( deeded) and partially voluntary ( flex)?

How will they determine what inventory is dedicated to deeded and which to flex. Given the fact it is to their advantage to have deeded owners sell their deeded weeks and they control inventory seems fraught with potential slight of hand. Not trying to be a cynic just not sure I fully trust Vistana.


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## alohakevin

darius said:


> I spoke with a corporate sales person today about this.   Apparently, it is going to include WKORV, WKORV-N and WPORV for Hawaii.  (Nanea is NOT included in this offering...).  Also,  there will be no ocean front units included in the weeks - so if you want that premium view, this package will not offer it.     The costs and fees are expected to be higher than the existing Flex products as well.



To keep things even wouldnt they have to increase options necessary in flex to reserve in order to charge more in maintenance fees for the same deeded unit. Can they charge different maintenance fees depending on what program you are with on the same property. This will make for interesting pool conversation.


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## DeniseM

With Flex Options, you don't own a deeded unit - you only own Flex Options, and the maintenance fee is based on the number of Flex Options that you own, and yes, it's different that owning a deed.  This is already happening with the other Flex programs at other resorts.



> How will they determine what inventory is dedicated to deeded and which to flex.



Only inventory that has been converted to Flex Options will be in the Flex pool.  Vistana will acquire this inventory by 1) convincing owners to convert their deeded weeks to Flex, 2) buying resales, 3) foreclosures.  This inventory will be segregated in the computer reservation system.

I actually know an owner who owned mulitiple ocean front units and converted them to Sheraton Flex - OUCH!


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## lizap

This sounds eerily similar to what ILG has done with Hyatt and the Pure Points Program. It is believed Hyatt is having trouble acquiring enough units for the program. They can acquire units by ROFR, getting current owners to convert, or by adding new units by building them. Unlike Hyatt, Westin does not have ROFR at every resort. It is believed that Hyatt is having trouble getting current owners to convert as the price to convert is very high (unlike the nominal price Marriott owners had to pay). The conclusion that many Hyatt owners have come to is that it will be a long time before this affects us. I suspect it will be the same for us Westin legacy owners as well.


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## Moparman42

I have been looking into this, and what pisses me off about it is, (as an owner at Nanea), I get to place my home reservations at Nanea at 8-12 months, now these 'flex' owners can reserve at any of the flex resorts at 8-12 months.  we both get the same 8 month treatment.  so this tells me that their points are more valuable than mine, but something ALSO tells me that MY maintenance fees will be higher.  I am disappointed in Vistana in regards to this program.  I will be doing an owners update later in 2018 when I stay at WKORV and will be drilling them hard on this one. (they REALLY don't like me when I go in with questions)..    I feel like they are devaluing my deeded week and giving a lot more people access to my home resort at 12 months.   so, play it safe and book early!


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## okwiater

@Moparman42 It's not really a de-valuation. The Flex owners are able to reserve units with deeds that are in the Flex pool. They're not able to reserve units backed by deeded ownerships outside the Flex pool until 8 months, same as you.


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## Moparman42

okwiater said:


> @Moparman42 It's not really a de-valuation. The Flex owners are able to reserve units with deeds that are in the Flex pool. They're not able to reserve units backed by deeded ownerships outside the Flex pool until 8 months, same as you.



I see you're an owner in the Sheraton Flex.   what ar ethe maintenance fees like?    I am actually looking at growing my portfolio, and do you think the flex program is any better than a deeded ownership, dollar for dollar?   and I hope that you are correct about the pools of rooms, but I almost always book a year out and for not terribly busy seasons, so I should never have an issue.


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## okwiater

Moparman42 said:


> I see you're an owner in the Sheraton Flex.   what ar ethe maintenance fees like?    I am actually looking at growing my portfolio, and do you think the flex program is any better than a deeded ownership, dollar for dollar?   and I hope that you are correct about the pools of rooms, but I almost always book a year out and for not terribly busy seasons, so I should never have an issue.



I prefer my deeded ownerships. My main reason for owning Flex was a very low "new money" threshold to perform a requal and become 5*.


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## Markus

okwiater said:


> I prefer my deeded ownerships. My main reason for owning Flex was a very low "new money" threshold to perform a requal and become 5*.


I 100% agree with you okwiater! The deeded weeks are best, but they have become very expensive to buy from the developper.

Markus


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## lizap

okwiater said:


> @Moparman42 It's not really a de-valuation. The Flex owners are able to reserve units with deeds that are in the Flex pool. They're not able to reserve units backed by deeded ownerships outside the Flex pool until 8 months, same as you.



 We are currently at a Hyatt in FL and they are being very aggressive with current owners to try to get them to convert to PP (similar to FLEX). ILG has seriously underestimated how much legacy owners are willing to pay to convert. Without a significant number of us who convert, they are going to have a product with little inventory for PP ( and FLEX for Westin).. My belief is that as soon as they realize they are not going to have enough inventory, the price to convert will be lowered to something similar to what Marriott offered legacy owners.


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## Sea Six

DeniseM said:


> During the 12-8 month owner's priority period, Flex owners will only be able to exchange for reservations _in the flex pool_ - not the deeded weeks inventory that already belongs to owners.



I hope they are as honest as you suggest here.  My concern is they are just selling Flex Options in sold out resorts just to raise money.  Kind of like airlines selling seats on sold out flights, knowing there will always be unexpected space.  Then the Flex owners get to book at 8-12 out, and the non-owners with StarOptions get less and less chance.  The traders eventually get squeezed out completely.


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## jlp879

lizap said:


> We are currently at a Hyatt in FL and they are being very aggressive with current owners to try to get them to convert to PP (similar to FLEX). ILG has seriously underestimated how much legacy owners are willing to pay to convert.



What is the current price to convert to Hyatt Pure Points?


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## lizap

jlp879 said:


> What is the current price to convert to Hyatt Pure Points?



Meant to say they've 'overestimated' how much current owners are willing to pay. 
Has been reported over on the Hyatt subforum, the minimum buy-in is 700 points at $20 per point, roughly $14k. Quite a difference from the nominal cost Marriott offered legacy owners.. what you have is a mature product that ILG is trying to re-invent to make money off of. I don't see this a successful venture since I don't think they will be able to convince a significant number of owners to convert at this cost..


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## lizap

Sea Six said:


> I hope they are as honest as you suggest here.  My concern is they are just selling Flex Options in sold out resorts just to raise money.  Kind of like airlines selling seats on sold out flights, knowing there will always be unexpected space.  Then the Flex owners get to book at 8-12 out, and the non-owners with StarOptions get less and less chance.  The traders eventually get squeezed out completely.



FOs will come from different inventory. I see this as more of a situation where FLEX owners may have trouble booking a particular resort for some time to come, since there will ONLY be FLEX inventory from newly built unit's, from those who buy into FLEX, and those poor souls that Westin is able to convince to pay ridiculous amounts to convert.. There have been reports that Marriott is considering a purchase of ILG. I almost wish this would happen since there's a leadership void at ILG.. maybe they could straighten this mess out.


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## lizap

jlp879 said:


> What is the current price to convert to Hyatt Pure Points
> 
> Deleted


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## cubigbird

I’m wondering if we will see WSJ eventually also be included in this???


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## cubigbird

bizaro86 said:


> Interesting. I'm curious what the ski property would be. I thought westin riverfront was sold out, and there are no other ski resorts where they have the right to develop Westin branded timeshares, so they would have to negotiate with Marriott International to add anything new.
> 
> Maybe it'll just be a few weeks at riverfront...



There is empty land next door to the Westin Riverfront hotel — opposite side from where the villas are.  I was told in a past meeting that it was eventually the goal to expand Riverfront Villas.  I’m wondering if that could be it???


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## bizaro86

cubigbird said:


> I’m wondering if we will see WSJ eventually also be included in this???



On one of the conference calls they mentioned that Nanea and WSJ were premium products and they didn't anticipate putting them in a flex structure.


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## VacationForever

Thanks to Vistana / II, more fractured offerings.  A cheapo resale mandatory SVV is still the way to go...


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## vacationtime1

Fractured offerings, indeed.  Just think, for Vistana's four Hawaii properties (WKORV, WKORVN, WPORV, and Nanea) we will have four different classifications with four different and often inconsistent sets of rules:  VSE mandatory, VSE voluntary, HomeOptions, and the rumored Westin Flex.  

I suppose if/when they build timeshares in the Sheraton Kauai (Poipu), we will have a fifth classification, probably Sheraton Flex.


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## darius

vacationtime1 said:


> Fractured offerings, indeed.  Just think, for Vistana's four Hawaii properties (WKORV, WKORVN, WPORV, and Nanea) we will have four different classifications with four different and often inconsistent sets of rules:  VSE mandatory, VSE voluntary, HomeOptions, and the rumored Westin Flex.
> 
> I suppose if/when they build timeshares in the Sheraton Kauai (Poipu), we will have a fifth classification, probably Sheraton Flex.



Sales stated  the Sheraton Kauai would get added to the original Flex offering.   I agree, very fractured - and buy where you want to stay.   They do have some wonderful resorts though!


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## dioxide45

Moparman42 said:


> I have been looking into this, and what pisses me off about it is, (as an owner at Nanea), I get to place my home reservations at Nanea at 8-12 months, now these 'flex' owners can reserve at any of the flex resorts at 8-12 months.  we both get the same 8 month treatment.  so this tells me that their points are more valuable than mine, but something ALSO tells me that MY maintenance fees will be higher.  I am disappointed in Vistana in regards to this program.  I will be doing an owners update later in 2018 when I stay at WKORV and will be drilling them hard on this one. (they REALLY don't like me when I go in with questions)..    I feel like they are devaluing my deeded week and giving a lot more people access to my home resort at 12 months.   so, play it safe and book early!


Your assumption is incorrect. Other flex owners won't be able to reserve in to Nanea at the 12-8 month mark. Only those that own in the Nanea flex product can reserve inventory in Nanea Flex during the preference period of 12-8 months. Owners in any of the separate flex products can only reserve inventory in that program 12-8 months out. So if I own in Westin Flex, I can only reserve inventory in Westin Flex 12-8 months out. I can't cross over and reserve Nanea Flex or Aventuras Flex at 12-8 months. I can only cross programs at the 8 month mark.

This is one area where Vistana was very sloppy. Their myriad of different flex programs is messy. Different flex programs in Hawaii, St John and Sheraton. They even have separate use plans in these programs. For Nanea they have Ocean Front use plan and Resort View use plan. They really needed a separate 1BR use plan due to the limited number of 1BR units at Nanea. Aventuras is unique and for legal purposes couldn't be combined with the others as all of the USA based flex programs are land trusts recorded in the US. Sheraton Flex is all recorded in Orange County Florida.

Vistana should have gone the way of Marriott and setup a single flex program. Dumped all their inventory in there and sold a single product with access to all the resorts.


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## vacationtime1

darius said:


> Sales stated  the Sheraton Kauai would get added to the original Flex offering.   I agree, very fractured - and buy where you want to stay.   They do have some wonderful resorts though!



So if all of our information is correct, Nanea will be a stand-alone resort (the only one with HomeOptions), Sheraton Kauai will be packaged with some older Atlantic coast resorts and a ski resort as Sheraton Flex, and the "legacy" Hawaii properties (WKORV, WKORVN, and WPORV) will be in the Westin Flex group.  Makes no sense at all.


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## dioxide45

vacationtime1 said:


> So if all of our information is correct, Nanea will be a stand-alone resort (the only one with HomeOptions), Sheraton Kauai will be packaged with some older Atlantic coast resorts and a ski resort as Sheraton Flex, and the "legacy" Hawaii properties (WKORV, WKORVN, and WPORV) will be in the Westin Flex group.  Makes no sense at all.


Don't some phases at WSJ also have Home Options? If so, they are also stand-alone resorts with home options.


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## tschwa2

dioxide45 said:


> Don't some phases at WSJ also have Home Options? If so, they are also stand-alone resorts with home options.


I think they are just float weeks.


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## dioxide45

I recall Coral Vista being HomeOptions? It is this thread that makes me think that.


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## DavidnRobin

Is this correct? (based on speculative discussion)
An WMH Owner will be able to convert to Westin Flex Points (ie. using their VOI with new money), and then reserve WKORV/N-WPORV during the HomeResort period (8-12 months) - thus competing with deeded owners. How would that work? Wouldn't that be equivalent to selling more than they own? Or, can they only come in at the 8-month mark?

As to WSJ - both Coral Vista and Sunset Bay phases use HomeOptions which are only different from StarOptions during the HomeResort period.

The Sheraton Flex system did help alleviate an inherent problem with the established VSE system for low value/season TS weeks due to MFs being equal for low-season and high-season weeks (leading to delinquent MFs for low-value owners that the HOA needs to pick up...).   A flawed system, but at least offering more vacation flexibility - spreads the pain.  WSJ-CV and WSJ-SB phases did the same in similar manner (that WSJ-VGV  suffers from).  IMO


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## DeniseM

> Is this correct? (based on speculative discussion)
> An WMH Owner will be able to convert to Westin Flex Points (ie. using their VOI with new money), and then reserve WKORV/N-WPORV during the HomeResort period (8-12 months) - thus competing with deeded owners.



Dave - Flexoption owners won't be competing with _deeded week owners_.  The deeded weeks wil be in one pool, and the flexoption weeks will be in another pool.  The flexoption pool will consist of inventory that deeded week owners have converted to flexoptions and inventory that VSE buys or forecloses on, and then sells as Westin flexoptions.

It sounds crazy that Hawaii owners will be willing to convert to flex options, but as I wrote above, I know an owner who converted multiple ocean front Maui deeds to _Sheraton_ Flex.    I am afraid that some vulnerable owners will fall for the sales pitch.


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## Helios

lizap said:


> There have been reports that Marriott is considering a purchase of ILG. I almost wish this would happen...


I totally agree, things are getting too messy.


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## Helios

bizaro86 said:


> On one of the conference calls they mentioned that Nanea and WSJ were premium products and they didn't anticipate putting them in a flex structure.


So, they don’t consider the other Maui resorts premium?


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## bizaro86

Helios said:


> So, they don’t consider the other Maui resorts premium?



The question was about Nanea and the new phase at WSJ specifically, so I wouldn't read that into it.

Also, I get the sense they like the flexibility if selling options, and it's too late to deed WKORV and WKORVN as home options.


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## Helios

bizaro86 said:


> The question was about Nanea and the new phase at WSJ specifically, so I wouldn't read that into it.
> 
> Also, I get the sense they like the flexibility if selling options, and it's too late to deed WKORV and WKORVN as home options.


It really comes down to them making money, again, for something they already sold.  

What I don’t get is why they would exclude OF as it was stated above.  They need to acquire inventory anyway, so way not entice people with OF units also...


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## DeniseM

> Also, I get the sense they like the flexibility if selling options, and it's too late to deed WKORV and WKORVN as home options.



Yes and no - they can't _arbitrarily_ convert all the deeded weeks to Westin Flex options, because that is not what owners bought.  

But they absolutely can try to lure owners into choosing to convert their deeded weeks into flex options.  I know someone who has already done it.


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## lizap

DeniseM said:


> Dave - Flexoption owners won't be competing with _deeded week owners_.  The deeded weeks wil be in one pool, and the flexoption weeks will be in another pool.  The flexoption pool will consist of inventory that deeded week owners have converted to flexoptions and inventory that VSE buys or forecloses on, and then sells as Westin flexoptions.
> 
> It sounds crazy that Hawaii owners will be willing to convert to flex options, but as I wrote above, I know an owner who converted multiple ocean front Maui deeds to _Sheraton_ Flex.    I am afraid that some vulnerable owners will fall for the sales pitch.



Denise, I agree-there will be some who fall
for this. But I think it will be quite some time before it affects the inventory that people use SOs to reserve.


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## DeniseM

We probably won't see an immediate impact, but because Vistana can also acquire inventory by buying it on the resale market and foreclosures, it will slowly take inventory out of the deeded weeks side, and put it on the flex options side. 

Also - I don't know what the rules are for Vistana to "confiscate" unreserved flexoption inventory for their own use - I'm sure the terms are liberal and benefit Vistana.


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## bizaro86

Helios said:


> It really comes down to them making money, again, for something they already sold.
> 
> What I don’t get is why they would exclude OF as it was stated above.  They need to acquire inventory anyway, so way not entice people with OF units also...



They probably resell the OF weeks they acquire at such high prices that selling 176k westin flex options would be a big downgrade for them.

If you want to trade maui OF for Westin Flex they will take it, but if you have Westin Flex there won't be any maui oceanfront deeds in the trust to book at 12 months.


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## cubigbird

It sounds like it will slowly over time become harder to book weeks with deeded weeks because they will migrate over to Flex and deeded week inventory will decline.  I can see that being and angle for sales. “Don’t like availability, here buy points.”


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## youppi

dioxide45 said:


> Vistana should have gone the way of Marriott and setup a single flex program. Dumped all their inventory in there and sold a single product with access to all the resorts.


Yes but to do that they must revise the number of SO at each resort to reflect the MF of each resort. Otherwise people in the flex could have access to Hawaii at 12 months way too low or way too high compared to deeded Hawaii week owners. If they revise, some people would not be happy to see their platinum+ season going down and not be able to get Hawaii at 8 months. Look at the number of points for Hawaii in the Marriott's system vs others areas. Don't forget the skim done by Marriott's to enrolled weeks.


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## Markus

Let’s all remind ourselves of the objective of the Flex products. Inially designed to package unsold low season weeks, ( after years of active sales at resorts). To compensate for low season weeks, additional resorts were added to the trust to make the package more attractive and to try and smooth MFs over many products. This is a creative approach to selling out these less attractive weeks.

I can understand this approach for the Sheraton Flex. The Aventuras product however, includes resorts just going into active sales. Why not sell the attractive weeks first, then bundle the remainder in a trust product like the other flex? I think that this product offers the best availability in prime weeks given the way it was designed.

Then there is the new Westin Flex. This will resemble more the Sheraton Flex with unsold weeks.

Bottom line is I think it will take some time for these products to affect deeded week availability in VSN. The number of deeded weeks out there is significant, and the balance of power in terms of weeks available to deeded owners is high. This of course hold true as long as the pools of weeks are properly accounted for, which legally, Vistana must do.

Markus


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## dioxide45

youppi said:


> Yes but to do that they must revise the number of SO at each resort to reflect the MF of each resort. Otherwise people in the flex could have access to Hawaii at 12 months way too low or way too high compared to deeded Hawaii week owners. If they revise, some people would not be happy to see their platinum+ season going down and not be able to get Hawaii at 8 months. Look at the number of points for Hawaii in the Marriott's system vs others areas. Don't forget the skim done by Marriott's to enrolled weeks.


When they put the weeks in to the trust, the MFs adjust themselves. The platinum season weeks at a resort in their trust are the same as the MF in gold season. Once put in the trust, they then set the MF based on each SO. Marriott is no different. There are resorts where the enrolled MF per point is very high where others that it is very low.


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## VacationForever

cubigbird said:


> It sounds like it will slowly over time become harder to book weeks with deeded weeks because they will migrate over to Flex and deeded week inventory will decline.  I can see that being and angle for sales. “Don’t like availability, here buy points.”


Maybe like in 50 years' time?   I doubt many people will be willing to "migrate" over to Flex, which is like paying more to get less.


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## DeniseM

> It sounds like it will slowly over time become harder to book weeks with deeded weeks because they will migrate over to Flex and deeded week inventory will decline.



Yes, but, the number of people who are trying to reserve deeded weeks in the home owners reservation period _will decrease at the same rate as deeds leave the pool_.  For every deed that goes into the flex pool, there will be one less owner competing for deeded weeks.  Then those owners can only reserve inventory in the flex pool.


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## bizaro86

cubigbird said:


> It sounds like it will slowly over time become harder to book weeks with deeded weeks because they will migrate over to Flex and deeded week inventory will decline.  I can see that being and angle for sales. “Don’t like availability, here buy points.”



Availability for hard to get reservations should always be better for weeks owners.

Even if all of wkorv


DeniseM said:


> Yes, but, the number of people who are trying to reserve deeded weeks in the home owners reservation period _will decrease at the same rate as deeds leave the pool_.  For every deed that goes into the flex pool, there will be one less owner competing for deeded weeks.  Then those owners can only reserve inventory in the flex pool.



Right. And the number of owners in the flex pool will probably grow faster than the number of Hawaii deeds in the pool. It will be easier for them to get owners of off season weeks to convert wkorv/n owners.


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## jabberwocky

cubigbird said:


> It sounds like it will slowly over time become harder to book weeks with deeded weeks because they will migrate over to Flex and deeded week inventory will decline.  I can see that being and angle for sales. “Don’t like availability, here buy points.”



We did an owners update at SVR this morning and they are already starting to use that line. 

I did ask about the Westin Flex rumour and he confirmed that they will start selling January 4.  Over time he said we won’t be able to book anything as everything will be in the flex system.   Also asked why they didn’t do one large system like Marriott and he said the Westin flex homeoptions will be much more expensive than the Sheraton flex product so they didn’t want to combine. 

I must say it was the most pleasant update we’ve been to recently. Salesperson was pretty straightforward and didn’t try to push us too hard - he agreed that what we had already met our needs. He also said he’s been selling Vistana for just over one year and we were the most informed prospects he had talked to. 

Only “improvement” he suggested was to sell us 100k flex options for $35k to get us to elite and requal our SDO plat. (No thanks).




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## Smithsingeneva

jabberwocky said:


> Over time he said we won’t be able to book anything as everything will be in the flex system.



I assume he means booking through StarOptions, as there should be corresponding inventory for 12-8 months on home resort reservations.


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## cubigbird

DeniseM said:


> Yes, but, the number of people who are trying to reserve deeded weeks in the home owners reservation period _will decrease at the same rate as deeds leave the pool_.  For every deed that goes into the flex pool, there will be one less owner competing for deeded weeks.  Then those owners can only reserve inventory in the flex pool.



I’m sure deeded week capability will never go away completely.  Not everyone is willing to pay 20-30k to move to Flex, no matter how hard they position it.  There will forever have to be “an old system.”  I plan to stay with what own as I own where I want to go.  That can’t be taken away with this new Flex.

On another note, there can only be so far they can churn.  What happens when inventory dries up in Flex, or essentially they’ve moved what they can to the Flex??


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## DavidnRobin

Nothing to book because everything will be in Flex...
LOLOLOLOL

How do you know a TS salesperson is lying?


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## VacationForever

DavidnRobin said:


> How do you know a TS salesperson is lying?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The lips are moving!


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## dioxide45

Marriott's program and DC trust has been going for seven and a half years. Marriott has been acquiring weeks from ROFR, buyback and foreclosure to dump in to their trust. They have been more aggressive than Vistana ever could be because Vistana has very few properties with ROFR. Owners in Marriott weeks aren't having any more issues reserving home resort weeks now than they did before. Yes, prime home resort reservations are hard, but they were before 2010.

As long as you own a week, they have to guaranty you a week in your season at your home resort. So you will always get that. Will you always get the exact week you want, perhaps not. But that is how a floating weeks system works. StarOptions won't change much, it may actually make it easier. People owning flex options may be more slack in reserving what they want and then at eight months it still goes to the VSN system for anyone to reserve.


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## canesfan

Although it’s supposed t


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## vistana101

jabberwocky said:


> Also asked why they didn’t do one large system like Marriott and he said the Westin flex homeoptions will be much more expensive than the Sheraton flex product so they didn’t want to combine.



See I don't understand this. Couldn't you just make the Westin properties require more options, like the internal system works and how Marriott works?


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## Helios

bizaro86 said:


> They probably resell the OF weeks they acquire at such high prices that selling 176k westin flex options would be a big downgrade for them.
> 
> If you want to trade maui OF for Westin Flex they will take it, but if you have Westin Flex there won't be any maui oceanfront deeds in the trust to book at 12 months.


I see your point, don't get me wrong.  

But, they would also have a good selling argument if they try to sell Westin flex which includes OF units.  Perhaps i see it from my stand point only, i would consider upgrading sheraton weeks to westin flex (knowing i will need to put new money) if OF is included.  If it not, they are not getting my new money.

So, some people will fall for it.  And some sales people will lie and say OF is included.


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## Helios

vistana101 said:


> See I don't understand this. Couldn't you just make the Westin properties require more options, like the internal system works and how Marriott works?


I like this idea.  They are not assigning a different value, but they are further segregating the units.


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## pathways25

DeniseM said:


> Dave - Flexoption owners won't be competing with _deeded week owners_.  The deeded weeks wil be in one pool, and the flexoption weeks will be in another pool.  The flexoption pool will consist of inventory that deeded week owners have converted to flexoptions and inventory that VSE buys or forecloses on, and then sells as Westin flexoptions.
> 
> It sounds crazy that Hawaii owners will be willing to convert to flex options, but as I wrote above, I know an owner who converted multiple ocean front Maui deeds to _Sheraton_ Flex.    I am afraid that some vulnerable owners will fall for the sales pitch.



The big difference for Westin Flex is that Hawaii only has one season so there's no segregation of low and high season deeds.  Lets for the sake of discussion say that the trust owns 3000 WKORV and WKORVN VOI's.  In theory, all of that inventory could be fighting for the same "high" season times at WKORV and WKORVN (namely, President's Day, Easter and summer).  Before, there would have been 3000 individual owners that might be trying for those reservations, now with flex owners also able to come in through those 3000 VOI's, there might be many more flex owners trying for those same reservations.  The total possible number of reservations would still be 3000, but many more individual owners would be fighting to get that space during popular weeks.

I think that as the number of Westin Flex owners grows, it will become harder for weeks owners to get the most popular times at the Hawaii resorts.


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## VacationForever

pathways25 said:


> The big difference for Westin Flex is that Hawaii only has one season so there's no segregation of low and high season deeds.  Lets for the sake of discussion say that the trust owns 3000 WKORV and WKORVN VOI's.  In theory, all of that inventory could be fighting for the same "high" season times at WKORV and WKORVN (namely, President's Day, Easter and summer).  Before, there would have been 3000 individual owners that might be trying for those reservations, now with flex owners also able to come in through those 3000 VOI's, there might be many more flex owners trying for those same reservations.  The total possible number of reservations would still be 3000, but many more individual owners would be fighting to get that space during popular weeks.
> 
> I think that as the number of Westin Flex owners grows, it will become harder for weeks owners to get the most popular times at the Hawaii resorts.


They would belong to 2 separate inventory pools.  Flex owners cannot book inventory from weeks pool.


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## youppi

VacationForever said:


> They would belong to 2 separate inventory pools.  Flex owners cannot book inventory from weeks pool.


Yes but who decide which Hawaii weeks are in each pool ?
Hawaii deeded weeks are they fix or float ?
If they are float then VSE could decide that all weeks in the flex pool are in whale season and summer and in this case deeded weeks owners could have difficulty to get a week in those seasons.


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## VacationForever

youppi said:


> Yes but who decide which Hawaii weeks are in each pool ?
> Hawaii deeded weeks are they fix or float ?
> If they are float then VSE could decide that all weeks in the flex pool are in whale season and summer and in this case deeded weeks owners could have difficulty to get a week in those seasons.



There is always going to be suspicion from the owners but when you look at Marriott, they have kept inventory pools separate and there are no issues with having access to weeks in prime season anymore so than in the past.


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## DeniseM

> If they are float then VSE could decide that all weeks in the flex pool


  I believe that would be a serious violation of the contractual terms which state that floating week owners can reserve weeks 1-50.


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## vacationtime1

DeniseM said:


> I believe that would be a serious violation of the contractual terms which state that floating week owners can reserve weeks 1-50.



We don't know what happens behind the curtain.

But we do know that in the area of Interval deposits, Vistana controls what gets deposited and guess what, few if any WKORV/WKORVN summer weeks go into Interval.  The weeks available for Interval exchanges tend towards lower demand weeks.  In other words, Vistana already "enriches" and "depletes" the more desirable inventory available for different classes of users (owners, StarOption exchanges, Interval exchanges, renters, etc.).  They can do the same for the Westin Flex trust if it is in their interest to do so. 

Of course many summer, holiday, and other high demand weeks will remain available for owners.  But whether or not the number of prime weeks available to Westin Flex owners is proportionate to Westin Flex's fractional ownership will be impossible to determine; that curtain will be opaque.


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## pathways25

vacationtime1 said:


> Of course many summer, holiday, and other high demand weeks will remain available for owners.  But whether or not the number of prime weeks available to Westin Flex owners is proportionate to Westin Flex's fractional ownership will be impossible to determine; that curtain will be opaque.



I don't think the Westin Flex inventory pool will be under any obligation to maintain a proportional fraction of each week in the year.  The deeds in the trust have the same rights as any other weeks deed owned by any individual owner.  Flex owners accessing the Hawaii resorts using those trust weeks can reserve any week that any individual weeks owner can reserve so long as the total number of room nights / weeks does not exceed the number of deeds owned at each of the resorts.  This was the point I was trying to make a few posts back.


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## dioxide45

There is always suspicion among owners in Marriott if Marriott is somehow skimming the better weeks for their DC program away from weeks owners. One area where Marriott differs is that they better demand balance their points charts across the system. In Hawaii Vistana charges the same SOs whether you go in October or you go in February. With higher points requirements for higher demand times, it helps to balance the demand better since it will cost someone more points to reserve that higher demand time. With Vistana, that doesn't exist and it creates big problems with Vistana trying to create a single system.

Perhaps if Marriott buys ILG, they could start adding Vistana properties to their DC trust and allocate them new point values in the DC system. That is really the only easy way that Vistana could create a new system across their different brands.


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## tschwa2

Vistana does have a historical precedent for separate buckets for the same type of inventory for SVN owners at voluntary resorts and non SVN deeded float week owners.  As an owner of a non SVN week at SBP that floats weeks 9-47 with the most desired weeks being 26-32, availability usually favors SVN home week owners vs non SVN although occasionally I have seen availability for a non SVN home week when it didn't show availability for staroptions with the late available to me as a SVN non SBP owner.


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## YYJMSP

cubigbird said:


> It sounds like it will slowly over time become harder to book weeks with deeded weeks because they will migrate over to Flex and deeded week inventory will decline.  I can see that being and angle for sales. “Don’t like availability, here buy points.”



should be a wash, as the number of deeded owners will decrease at the same rates as deeded inventory decreases, and number of flex owners will increase at the same rate as flex inventory increases.

the problem for single-season resorts will be a potential imbalance for high demand weeks between the two inventories, as what's to prevent VSE from saying those high demand bookings weren't first filled by flex reservations vs deeded reservations, as there us no real way to keep the exact inventories separate, as they all float equally...


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## duke

I think a key reason for this program is "to kill the resale market".  Instead of building units, the developer gobbles up all the resales and has a viable vehicle to dispose of them at a good profit. (Developer selling FLEX is much easier than selling deeded units).  The profit pays for the sales office and commissions but the real benefit is that it removes the resale market.  WKORV OV resales are approx. $15,000 and WPORV resales are less.  Remove these and you own the business again.


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## Tucsonadventurer

Will it be that marketable? It seems like the MFs are always significantly higher with the flex programs.


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## dioxide45

duke said:


> I think a key reason for this program is "to kill the resale market".  Instead of building units, the developer gobbles up all the resales and has a viable vehicle to dispose of them at a good profit. (Developer selling FLEX is much easier than selling deeded units).  The profit pays for the sales office and commissions but the real benefit is that it removes the resale market.  WKORV OV resales are approx. $15,000 and WPORV resales are less.  Remove these and you own the business again.


Good point. They can pull in mandatory weeks from the resale market and put them in to a voluntary flex system. The only problem that Vistana has here is that they don't have ROFR on many of their properties. So this would probably only work at WKORV N/S.


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## cubigbird

Down the road, a long time from now, what happens when they run out of points to sell?  They can only sell points for deeds that are deposited into the trust and can’t sell more points than weeks.  I’m sure they will be selling points way faster than new inventory coming online.


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## dioxide45

cubigbird said:


> Down the road, a long time from now, what happens when they run out of points to sell?  They can only sell points for deeds that are deposited into the trust and can’t sell more points than weeks.  I’m sure they will be selling points way faster than new inventory coming online.


They will have to start building new resorts to bring online to feed the sales. They can't feed sales from ROFR and foreclosures alone. They won't have any other options except to bring new properties online or complete others that are unfinished (SVV).


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## cubigbird

Can VSE amend the docs to include a ROFR in all the resorts that don’t have it??  Historically they have sold weeks (and points) much much faster than new inventory has come online.  They can’t sell more points in Flex than what deeds are deposited.  Eventually they will run into the same issue and have to somehow flip again?


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## duke

There don't have to be an equal number of weeks in the pool of the "good" resorts.  So, they will just buy resales on the open market or take back from owners who no longer want the weeks of the crappy resorts/seasons.  They then have flex weeks to sell but you don't know that they are made from weeks that you don't want.  So every thing balances until you go to make a reservation and the resorts or time periods or views are not available.  For example.  They buy up all the summer weeks at WMH and sell flex weeks to you thinking you are going to get into Hawaii.  In the meantime you are paying maintenance fees to support the summer months at WMH.  Or maybe they go on the open market and buy up all the Island View at WKORV.  You make reservations but you look at the parking lots.  The Goal for Vistana is to get you to pay maintenance fees for weeks no one wants and to kill the resale market (raise prices) so you will be glad to buy deeded view time units.


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## VacationForever

I think someone mentioned on this board recently that they managed to deedback to Vistana.  That is another way to add inventory to their flex programs.


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## dsmrp

VacationForever said:


> I think someone mentioned on this board recently that they managed to deedback to Vistana.  That is another way to add inventory to their flex programs.



Yes I was going to mention that, but then thought, maybe we're giving Vistana the free benefit of our owners' perspective in this discussion??  Sure they have loads of people and lawyers to consult, but they're coming at it from their business sales side of things


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## Helios

cubigbird said:


> Can VSE amend the docs to include a ROFR in all the resorts that don’t have it??  Historically they have sold weeks (and points) much much faster than new inventory has come online.  They can’t sell more points in Flex than what deeds are deposited.  Eventually they will run into the same issue and have to somehow flip again?


I was going to ask this.  If they add ROFR to Flex then they create an endless loop of inventory only controlled by people selling their units and them excercising ROFR.


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## youppi

There is many things they can do to acquire more points to sell or force people to convert or deed back

Increase the number of SO at many weeks/seasons/resorts.
Promote some weeks from lower season to an higher season like they did recently at some Hyatt resorts.
Add an hefty fee per SO attached to weeks like DRI do for enrolled weeks in THE Club (when the fee is too high to own then people deed back their weeks for a fee).
Remove the II 3 Weeks priority VSE to VSE exchange or remove the II VSE to VSE exchange like Hyatt do for weeks with attached SO.
Skim the number of SO for weeks owners like Marriott's do for enrolled weeks.
Add other kind of fees or increase existing fees for weeks owners.
Increase pressure and lies during presentation like many brands do to convince people to switch to Westin Flex.
Create a deed back program like DRI did ($250 to pay to DRI per contract to deed back if no loan/due to pay).
With their different flex programs, it looks like they follow DRI with their collections or SVC.
10 years ago, the DRI Hawaii collection was owning 11.9% at KBC (Maui) and 4.5% at P@P.
Now, the DRI Hawaii collection owns 54.9% at KBC and 58.7% at P@P.
If DRI was able to do it then there is no reason why ILG would not able to do it too.


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## dioxide45

youppi said:


> There is many things they can do to acquire more points to sell or force people to convert or deed back
> 
> Increase the number of SO at many weeks/seasons/resorts.
> Promote some weeks from lower season to an higher season like they did recently at some Hyatt resorts.
> Add an hefty fee per SO attached to weeks like DRI do for enrolled weeks in THE Club (when the fee is too high to own then people deed back their weeks for a fee).
> Remove the II 3 Weeks priority VSE to VSE exchange or remove the II VSE to VSE exchange like Hyatt do for weeks with attached SO.
> Skim the number of SO for weeks owners like Marriott's do for enrolled weeks.
> Add other kind of fees or increase existing fees for weeks owners.
> Increase pressure and lies during presentation like many brands do to convince people to switch to Westin Flex.
> Create a deed back program like DRI did ($250 to pay to DRI per contract to deed back if no loan/due to pay).
> With their different flex programs, it looks like they follow DRI with their collections or SVC.
> 10 years ago, the DRI Hawaii collection was owning 11.9% at KBC (Maui) and 4.5% at P@P.
> Now, the DRI Hawaii collection owns 54.9% at KBC and 58.7% at P@P.
> If DRI was able to do it then there is no reason why ILG would not able to do it too.


The problem with the first two are that once these are set,it is not easy to change the amounts. FOr the second one. The weeks in a season are part of the underlying condominium documents. Changes to these not only require a super majority to change but also a large number of votes just to reach a quorum. Even with the developer voting, chances of reaching the quorum or super majority are slim.

The first item is easier to change, they have done it before for Ocean Front weeks in Hawaii and at the Westin in St John. The only issue however is once they deed weeks to the trust at a set number of points and sell points against them, changing the number of SOs for any week that has weeks conveyed is not easy. Marriott has had their system for seven years and have yet to change the number of points associated with base weeks conveyed to the trust. I would say it is near impossible if not illegal to make this kind of change, once their is inventory in a trust where they have sold points against. They likely can't legally manufacture new points out of a trust to sell more.


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## bizaro86

dioxide45 said:


> The problem with the first two are that once these are set,it is not easy to change the amounts. FOr the second one. The weeks in a season are part of the underlying condominium documents. Changes to these not only require a super majority to change but also a large number of votes just to reach a quorum. Even with the developer voting, chances of reaching the quorum or super majority are slim.
> 
> The first item is easier to change, they have done it before for Ocean Front weeks in Hawaii and at the Westin in St John. The only issue however is once they deed weeks to the trust at a set number of points and sell points against them, changing the number of SOs for any week that has weeks conveyed is not easy. Marriott has had their system for seven years and have yet to change the number of points associated with base weeks conveyed to the trust. I would say it is near impossible if not illegal to make this kind of change, once their is inventory in a trust where they have sold points against. They likely can't legally manufacture new points out of a trust to sell more.



I think it's possible that if they changed the number of points owned by the trust, they may have to change the number of points held by each trust owner. My understanding is that these are land trusts,  where you own a  specific fraction. If the size of the pie changes, and your fraction remains the same,  they hold adjust your piece (up or down). I doubt they'd be very interested in doing that for many reasons (complexity, lawsuits, etc).


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## blondietink

I don't know if Vistana is similar to DVC, but a few years ago DVC adjusted how many points needed per day while keeping the amount needed per week the same. Too many people were just staying on cheaper point days (Sunday through Thursday)  and not staying in on the higher point per night Friday and Saturday.  Many people were upset at the change because they had only purchased enough points to stay Monday through Thursday and with the change they did not have enough points for a five day stay.


----------



## dioxide45

bizaro86 said:


> I think it's possible that if they changed the number of points owned by the trust, they may have to change the number of points held by each trust owner. My understanding is that these are land trusts,  where you own a  specific fraction. If the size of the pie changes, and your fraction remains the same,  they hold adjust your piece (up or down). I doubt they'd be very interested in doing that for many reasons (complexity, lawsuits, etc).


The problem is that the number of points is deeded. SO each person is deeded x number of points. It would be very difficult and costly to change the number of deeded points. I suspect once the trust is setup and the conveyances recorded, changing the number of points for the underlying inventory is not an option.



blondietink said:


> I don't know if Vistana is similar to DVC, but a few years ago DVC adjusted how many points needed per day while keeping the amount needed per week the same. Too many people were just staying on cheaper point days (Sunday through Thursday)  and not staying in on the higher point per night Friday and Saturday.  Many people were upset at the change because they had only purchased enough points to stay Monday through Thursday and with the change they did not have enough points for a five day stay.


Marriott has done something similar with Ko'Olina in Hawaii. They increased the number of points for the 1BR and studio portions of the lockoff 2BR, but they kept the 2BR point requirements the same. So they didn't change the points allocated to the underlying inventory. It isn't good for those that may have bought just enough trust points for a stay in a 1BR unit.


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## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> The problem is that the number of points is deeded. SO each person is deeded x number of points. It would be very difficult and costly to change the number of deeded points. I suspect once the trust is setup and the conveyances recorded, changing the number of points for the underlying inventory is not an option.



Starwood (former name for Vistana) did make an adjustment once for Sheraton Vistana Resort Cascade and Lakes phases.  I own a 2BR L/O week at the Lakes phase and when SOs were first assigned, it was 81K SO for the week.  They then increased it to 90K a few years later, followed by bumping it up to 95.7K.  SOs were not deeded for this resort as Starwood bought over the resort from Vistana and then later introduced SVN a couple of years later.


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> Starwood (former name for Vistana) did make an adjustment once for Sheraton Vistana Resort Cascade and Lakes phases.  I own a 2BR L/O week at the Lakes phase and when SOs were first assigned, it was 81K SO for the week.  They then increased it to 90K a few years later, followed by bumping it up to 95.7K.  SOs were not deeded for this resort as Starwood bought over the resort from Vistana and then later introduced SVN a couple of years later.


True, but now that SVR is deeded to the trust at x number of points per week and each of those deeds from the trust to owners has x number of points allocated to them, they really can't change it now. In the past, SOs were never deeded and strictly part of the VSN where Vistana could change them on a whim. I doubt we will be seeing much more of that now that they have these flex trusts setup.


----------



## GregT

In the Marriott system, an owner can enroll their week in the point system, and them redeem their week (temporarily) and receive the points assigned to that week.  This is not a permanent election, and each year the owner can decide whether to use their week, deposit it into Interval, or redeem it for points.

It sounds like for Sheraton Flex at least, that owners have made a permanent decision to trade their week and receive Flex Points instead.   It would be preferable if Starwood were allowing the Westin owners the same option that Marriott gives its owners.  This could particularly benefit the resale purchaser of a voluntary resort, who then would have access to a point system.

I don't expect much difference for the week owner, who will still compete for the prime reservations, only to find at 2 minutes after the hour, that the weeks are all gone.   I think Starwood will need to become more aggressive where it can ROFR and also in introducing a voluntary buy-back program.

Since I am a StarOptions user, I will be curious to see how the available inventory is impacted and I can argue either way about potential impact.   Time will tell...

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

GregT said:


> It sounds like for Sheraton Flex at least, that owners have made a permanent decision to trade their week and receive Flex Points instead. It would be preferable if Starwood were allowing the Westin owners the same option that Marriott gives its owners. This could particularly benefit the resale purchaser of a voluntary resort, who then would have access to a point system.


Greg, With Vistana, the only real owners that would benefit with enrollment would be voluntary resale owners. Everyone else is already enrolled with VSN. So there really is no reason for Vistana to offer any kind of enrollment just like there isn't really an reason for Marriott to offer post 6/2010 resale owners enrollment.

Vistana Voluntary = Marriott Post 6/2010 Resale.

They seem to really only allow them in to their programs with large direct purchases.


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## duke

Per Owners Update this past weekend:
1.  No information out yet on Westin Flex.
2.  Maintenance fees to be on par with Hawaii ($2,800).
3.  No real reasons for current owners who participate in VSN to be in a Flex program......


----------



## darius

I was able to get some pricing information that I thought other readers might find useful...  

148,100 SOs go for $51,835
176,700 SOs go for $61,845   

Annual fees are $2,697 for the 148,100 SOs
For 176,700 SOs they were (i did not write down the exact number 3200-3200 per year).   

The resorts are the two Westin's in CA (Desert Willow and Mission Hills)
The resort Colorado is Westin Riverfront
The resorts in Hawaii,  WKORV, WKORV-N and Princeville.   There is no oceanfront category bookable by home options (to us this is a deal killer). 

Essentially, it's the same exact purchase price as the Aventuras (Mexico Flex), but the annual fees are much higher with the Westin Flex.   

This could be attractive for someone who does not care about booking ocean front view categories at the two Maui properties.      

Darius


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## cubigbird

Wow that’s really maintenance fee expensive!  At what point do people just stop buying???  My WSJ-SB MF is quite a bit cheaper than that and those SB Villas are oceanfront!!!


----------



## GregT

darius said:


> I was able to get some pricing information that I thought other readers might find useful...
> 
> 148,100 SOs go for $51,835
> 176,700 SOs go for $61,845
> 
> Annual fees are $2,697 for the 148,100 SOs
> For 176,700 SOs they were (i did not write down the exact number 3200-3200 per year).
> 
> The resorts are the two Westin's in CA (Desert Willow and Mission Hills)
> The resort Colorado is Westin Riverfront
> The resorts in Hawaii,  WKORV, WKORV-N and Princeville.   There is no oceanfront category bookable by home options (to us this is a deal killer).
> 
> Essentially, it's the same exact purchase price as the Aventuras (Mexico Flex), but the annual fees are much higher with the Westin Flex.
> 
> This could be attractive for someone who does not care about booking ocean front view categories at the two Maui properties.
> 
> Darius



I don't know if this is a useful comparator, but someone willing to pay $51,000 could buy 4,250 Marriott points (assume $12/point).   There are cheaper ways to do it, but that's a reasonable estimate.

For 4,250 Marriott points, the person could book:

6, almost 7, nights in a 1BR OV at Maui Ocean Club (original tower)
6, almost 7, nights in a 2BR MG at Ko Olina (Oahu)
6 nights in a 2BR at Waiohai (Kauai)
7, almost 8, nights in a 2BR at Shadow Ridge (Palm Desert)
6, almost 7, nights in a 1BR at Mountainside (Park City)

I think all this does is prove that Westin knows the pricing of the competition.   But Westin benefits from a more simplistic underlying point structure, ensuring 7 nights in a 2BR for any of the Flex properties.    I remain curious how Starwood is going to obtain the required inventory to support the underlying demand.   They would be smart to allow owners (especially resale owners) to trade their weeks for Westin Flex points.

There must be an imbalance between the demand and the available deeded weeks that support the reservations.  Interesting.

Best,

Greg


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## VacationForever

GregT said:


> I don't know if this is a useful comparator, but someone willing to pay $51,000 could buy 4,250 Marriott points (assume $12/point).   There are cheaper ways to do it, but that's a reasonable estimate.
> 
> For 4,250 Marriott points, the person could book:
> 
> 6, almost 7, nights in a 1BR OV at Maui Ocean Club (original tower)
> 6, almost 7, nights in a 2BR MG at Ko Olina (Oahu)
> 6 nights in a 2BR at Waiohai (Kauai)
> 7, almost 8, nights in a 2BR at Shadow Ridge (Palm Desert)
> 6, almost 7, nights in a 1BR at Mountainside (Park City)
> 
> I think all this does is prove that Westin knows the pricing of the competition.   But Westin benefits from a more simplistic underlying point structure, ensuring 7 nights in a 2BR for any of the Flex properties.    I remain curious how Starwood is going to obtain the required inventory to support the underlying demand.   They would be smart to allow owners (especially resale owners) to trade their weeks for Westin Flex points.
> 
> There must be an imbalance between the demand and the available deeded weeks that support the reservations.  Interesting.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


... and I am thinking that for $61K of Westin Flex purchase of 176K SO, it is along way to go before a buyer hits 600K+ to get 5 star elite, where most want to get there to get SPG Platinum.  Makes purchase of Marriott a much less expensive path to Marriott and SPG platinum.  I think I spent a tad under 70K to get to Presidential level (Platinum) but I got a streak of luck(?) in getting my post-2010 purchases enrolled.


----------



## Westnick

darius said:


> I was able to get some pricing information that I thought other readers might find useful...
> 
> 148,100 SOs go for $51,835
> 176,700 SOs go for $61,845
> 
> Annual fees are $2,697 for the 148,100 SOs
> For 176,700 SOs they were (i did not write down the exact number 3200-3200 per year).
> 
> The resorts are the two Westin's in CA (Desert Willow and Mission Hills)
> The resort Colorado is Westin Riverfront
> The resorts in Hawaii,  WKORV, WKORV-N and Princeville.   There is no oceanfront category bookable by home options (to us this is a deal killer).
> 
> Essentially, it's the same exact purchase price as the Aventuras (Mexico Flex), but the annual fees are much higher with the Westin Flex.
> 
> This could be attractive for someone who does not care about booking ocean front view categories at the two Maui properties.
> 
> Darius


----------



## Westnick

darius said:


> I was able to get some pricing information that I thought other readers might find useful...
> 
> 148,100 SOs go for $51,835
> 176,700 SOs go for $61,845
> 
> Annual fees are $2,697 for the 148,100 SOs
> For 176,700 SOs they were (i did not write down the exact number 3200-3200 per year).
> 
> The resorts are the two Westin's in CA (Desert Willow and Mission Hills)
> The resort Colorado is Westin Riverfront
> The resorts in Hawaii,  WKORV, WKORV-N and Princeville.   There is no oceanfront category bookable by home options (to us this is a deal killer).
> 
> Essentially, it's the same exact purchase price as the Aventuras (Mexico Flex), but the annual fees are much higher with the Westin Flex.
> 
> This could be attractive for someone who does not care about booking ocean front view categories at the two Maui properties.
> 
> Darius


Last 2 years that I was at riverfront they never tryed to sell me a unit there. They said they were completely sold out except for a few shoulder seasons. They were pushing the Sheraton flex program.  The pool for the flex at riverfront has to be very small. I don’t see how anyone that buys the flex program would ever be able to book there.  Combine that with no oceanfront in Hawaii, does not seem to be a good deal.


----------



## dioxide45

Here are the underlying trust documents for the new Westin Flex, legally referred to as Flex Collection LLC. It looks like they just legally set this up on December 18th 2017.

*Trust Document*
20170692043
20170692054

*Conveyances of Inventory*
Desert Willow Resort Condominium: 20170689862
River Mountain Villas Condominium: 20170689863
Ocean Resort Villas North: 20170689864
Ocean Resort Villas: 20170689865
Princeville Ocean Resort Villas: 20170689866


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## Westnick

Am I reading this correctly? Ski season at riverfront is not included in the flex program.


----------



## dioxide45

Westnick said:


> Am I reading this correctly? Ski season at riverfront is not included in the flex program.


It would look that way. Nothing conveyed with weeks prior to week 16.


----------



## pathways25

It looks like all of the intervals conveyed for WKORV and WKORVN are Island View.

I guess that solves the problem of how to allocate reservations between OV and IV when they both cost the same number of options.


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## lizap

And many of the WDW units are in the summer/fall. Hmm..


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## dioxide45

With ROFR at the Hawaii properties, I wonder if they will ramp up on exercising on these resales? One thing that flex does let them do is convert mandatory weeks to voluntary. Over time this may kill off mandatory resales if Vistana somehow finds a way to acquire inventory from the mandatory properties where they don't have ROFR (SVV, WKV).


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## dioxide45

Westnick said:


> Am I reading this correctly? Ski season at riverfront is not included in the flex program.





lizap said:


> And many of the WDW units are in the summer. Hmm..


I suspect this is possibly made up of mostly unsold inventory? So perhaps that explains why the undesirable season conveyed so far.


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## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect this is possibly made up of mostly unsold inventory? So perhaps that explains why the undesirable season conveyed so far.


WOW is all I can say.  So they sell people their products and when owners try to use them, no winter/peak season weeks in the Desert, no Oceanview/Ocean Front at Kanaapali, no ski weeks at Riverfront.  We know that they market 176K Flex Options on the premise of using that to book 2BR Ocean Front in Maui.


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## tschwa2

So far they really are putting lipstick on a pig.  I would imagine they hope to add to it with some better weeks in the future.


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## darius

When speaking with Vistana sales, they tell you you'll only get Island View Maui or maybe Ocean View.  To be fair, they specifically disclosed that Ocean Front is not available in the Flex program.   They did allude to the ability to get ski weeks at Riverfront though.  

Does anyone have a way to get the same data for the Adventuras (Mexican flex) program?


----------



## bizaro86

darius said:


> When speaking with Vistana sales, they tell you you'll only get Island View Maui or maybe Ocean View.  To be fair, they specifically disclosed that Ocean Front is not available in the Flex program.   They did allude to the ability to get ski weeks at Riverfront though.
> 
> Does anyone have a way to get the same data for the Adventuras (Mexican flex) program?


The one thing about the Mexican resorts is that Cabo (and the future Westin Cancun) are new and never had week sales. So the entire resort probably gets deeded to the trust, which should make peak seasons easier to get. 

No wonder westin flex MF are so high if it's all off season weeks.


----------



## dioxide45

bizaro86 said:


> No wonder westin flex MF are so high if it's all off season weeks.


Those low season all have a pretty high MF to SO ratio. The same is true for most of the Sheraton properties in Sheraton Flex. So this does drive up the MF on flex. They really need to try to get some peak season weeks in there. They may have a hard time without ROFR at many of their properties.


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## bizaro86

I think they have more phases to build at Westin Desert willow, which would add some peak weeks (although also add off season weeks).

The peak weeks at the California properties aren't that expensive, open market buys would definitely be possible I would think.


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## DavidnRobin

For WKORV - the Flex villas are essentially all the B4 IV VOIs.
How do they put all of these B4 IV VOIs in the Flex when they do not own all of these VOIs?
(certainly lots of IV deeded owners still around)


----------



## bizaro86

DavidnRobin said:


> For WKORV - the Flex villas are essentially all the B4 IV VOIs.
> How do they put all of these B4 IV VOIs in the Flex when they do not own all of these VOIs?
> (certainly lots of IV deeded owners still around)


I suspect B4 IV owners (especially deluxe) are good targets for an upgrade pitch to trade in for Nanea.


----------



## DavidnRobin

No doubt.
Sure glad we own OF, and own where we go (or can go easily like WKV). I think the overall impact for VSN usage (for us) is negative for Maui access. We’ll see...

Haven’t looked at WPORV locations closely - didn’t see any B6 or B7 - but did see B3 (could be wrong)


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## ragdoll

DavidnRobin said:


> No doubt.
> Sure glad we own OF, and own where we go (or can go easily like WKV). I think the overall impact for VSN usage (for us) is negative for Maui access. We’ll see...
> 
> Haven’t looked at WPORV locations closely - didn’t see any B6 or B7 - but did see B3 (could be wrong)



I didn't see any of those either. But a lot of B3 is in there which has always been our favorite building to stay in. How will this affect us from now on? Are the pools of rooms completely separate inventories and not overlapping? If we requested B3, would we be able to get it?


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## okwiater

Keep in mind, the deeded specs of the units in Flex don't matter any more than they do for personally owned units. Just because a deed is in building 4 doesn't mean its usage rights are limited to units in building 4, any more than that would be the case if you personally bought such a unit.


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## dioxide45

okwiater said:


> Keep in mind, the deeded specs of the units in Flex don't matter any more than they do for personally owned units. Just because a deed is in building 4 doesn't mean its usage rights are limited to units in building 4, any more than that would be the case if you personally bought such a unit.


Correct. The flex units are just as subject to "floating unit" as a weeks owner. So a flex reservation can be placed in to any of the unit it floats in, just as an owner can be placed in any such unit. However, when it comes to StarOption reservation, it is all Vistana's game.


----------



## VacationForever

But whatever seasons that they are deeded for still holds.  So no ski weeks at Riverfront, no red weeks in the desert, no oceanfront at Maui.


----------



## Helios

VacationForever said:


> But whatever seasons that they are deeded for still holds.  So no ski weeks at Riverfront, no red weeks in the desert, no oceanfront at Maui.


That is terrible.  Not sure why someone would go for this with no OF and no WRF ski weeks.  But, I bet some will...


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## VacationForever

Helios said:


> That is terrible.  Not sure why someone would go for this with no OF and no WRF ski weeks.  But, I bet some will...


... because the salespeople do not tell the the truth as to what weeks are in them, except that they were island view in Maui as reported by the OP.


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## dioxide45

As new resorts and phases come online, I would expect Vistana to put those units in to the trust. So as someone pointed out, It seems that there is still more build at Riverfront? If so, ski weeks will be added and become available. Unless Vistana decides to sell those off separately at a huge profit.


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## lizap

dioxide45 said:


> As new resorts and phases come online, I would expect Vistana to put those units in to the trust. So as someone pointed out, It seems that there is still more build at Riverfront? If so, ski weeks will be added and become available. Unless Vistana decides to sell those off separately at a huge profit.



There is clearly a leadership void at Vistana/II. My guess is II will end up selling Vistana and Hyatt when it figures out FLEX and PPP at Hyatt are not working. II is learning how problematic it can be when a corporation strays too far from its core business.


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## cubigbird

dioxide45 said:


> As new resorts and phases come online, I would expect Vistana to put those units in to the trust. So as someone pointed out, It seems that there is still more build at Riverfront? If so, ski weeks will be added and become available. Unless Vistana decides to sell those off separately at a huge profit.



Yes at Riverfront there an open field on the other side of the hotel from the timeshare that they own.  I suspect at some point that will be developed.


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## DavidnRobin

Like personally owned VOIs - they must account for each one owned and sold.  They are listing villas they do not own based on feeders.  Are they switching deed numbers with owners of those deeds?


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## cubigbird

With this new Westin Flex, this is a great example of "own where you want to go."  Everything is subject to availability.  I am thankful for my current week VOIs and that that I don't have to fight with anyone for inventory.


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## dioxide45

DavidnRobin said:


> Like personally owned VOIs - they must account for each one owned and sold.  They are listing villas they do not own based on feeders.  Are they switching deed numbers with owners of those deeds?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not sure what you are exactly asking? Vistana can only convey to the trust deeds that they actually own. If they "upgrade" an owner to Nanea or Flex then they acquire the deed that was upgraded and they can convey that Flex Collection LLC trust.


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## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> Correct. The flex units are just as subject to "floating unit" as a weeks owner. So a flex reservation can be placed in to any of the unit it floats in, just as an owner can be placed in any such unit. However, when it comes to StarOption reservation, it is all Vistana's game.



So here is an interesting thought experiment for me - I understand the weeks float within the seasons (Hawaii excepted as it essentially has only the one season), but is it possible that if the trust and/or Vistana doesn't actually own the underlying deeded week that they could make that available to Flex owners in the 8-12 month period?  

For example let's say that the trust doesn't acquire any WKORV-N deeded week 9 units.  Could a Flex owner book week 9 even if the trust doesn't legally own it - that is - does the week stay in the original "pool" rather than going into the flex inventory pool or is it all mixed together.  I know this is highly unlikely to happen, but would be interested to know how this would work.


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## VacationForever

jabberwocky said:


> So here is an interesting thought experiment for me - I understand the weeks float within the seasons (Hawaii excepted as it essentially has only the one season), but is it possible that if the trust and/or Vistana doesn't actually own the underlying deeded week that they could make that available to Flex owners in the 8-12 month period?
> 
> For example let's say that the trust doesn't acquire any WKORV-N deeded week 9 units.  Could a Flex owner book week 9 even if the trust doesn't legally own it - that is - does the week stay in the original "pool" rather than going into the flex inventory pool or is it all mixed together.  I know this is highly unlikely to happen, but would be interested to know how this would work.


As long as week 9 is not an event week that is sold as such, using Westin Flex can certainly book week 9 units.  Is this your question or are you asking something different?


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## blondietink

I think what he is asking is that if there are no week 9 units in the Flex program, can a Flex owner book a week 9 unit?


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## YYJMSP

Since the "deeded week 9 unit" was only assigned that week number for inventory recording purposes, it shouldn't be any different than every other week since they're all floating in the same season.

There has to be some way of fairly allocating some proportion of times of the year across the various pools.  If the total inventory is split 60% weeks and 40% flex, then at any given time the inventory for a particular week should be split the same way, so neither pool can take a disproportionate piece of the pie -- otherwise, let's say there are 500 physical units, and the trust has 5000 floating weeks, and the trust has some way to prioritize their requests over other pools, it could reserve them all over the same weeks, effectively completely saturating say the 10 weeks of high demand times of the year, leaving the less desirable times of the year for the other pools...


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## VacationForever

Don't forget the unit number and week number is just for deeding purpose.  Unless it is a fixed week deed, it is meaningless.  Certainly Flex owners can book Week 9.


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## canesfan

Yes, because it floats. Vistana has to stay in the season it owns. Since Hawaii doesn’t have a season it can be anytime. It works just the same as deeded weeks 12-8 mo reservations. Except they will have more resorts as their ‘home’.

To answer David’s question you can see how much Vistana actually owns of Bldg 4. It shows the percentage of ownership. If you spent the time you could see exactly how many weeks of each unit they own but it certainly doesn’t look like every week.


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## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> Here are the underlying trust documents for the new Westin Flex, legally referred to as Flex Collection LLC. It looks like they just legally set this up on December 18th 2017.
> 
> *Trust Document*
> 20170692043
> 20170692054
> 
> *Conveyances of Inventory*
> Desert Willow Resort Condominium: 20170689862
> River Mountain Villas Condominium: 20170689863
> Ocean Resort Villas North: 20170689864
> Ocean Resort Villas: 20170689865
> Princeville Ocean Resort Villas: 20170689866



Dioxide,

Nice find here -- much more Hawaii inventory here from a StarOptions perspective in Hawaii (125M StarOptions) versus the other two (10M at most?).  I agree that ROFR/buy-backs of Hawaii inventory is probable in the coming years.

Will be interesting to track going forward.

Best,

Greg

Edited: StarOptions in Millions, not Thousands...


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## pathways25

YYJMSP said:


> There has to be some way of fairly allocating some proportion of times of the year across the various pools.  If the total inventory is split 60% weeks and 40% flex, then at any given time the inventory for a particular week should be split the same way, so neither pool can take a disproportionate piece of the pie -- otherwise, let's say there are 500 physical units, and the trust has 5000 floating weeks, and the trust has some way to prioritize their requests over other pools, it could reserve them all over the same weeks, effectively completely saturating say the 10 weeks of high demand times of the year, leaving the less desirable times of the year for the other pools...



But why?  If the trust owns 5000 floating weeks, then all 5000 should be able to reserve the same 10 high demand weeks that regular weeks owners could reserve.  Those 5000 trust weeks have the same ownership rights as if they were owned by 5000 individual owners who for the most part would likely be fighting for the same 10 high demand weeks.  The only caveat that I see would be if a flex owner made (for example) a Wednesday to Monday reservation (which they can do during the Home Reservation Period).  Such a reservation should consume two trust weeks since a weeks owner would not be allowed to make such a reservation with a single week.  That reservation would leave behind a Saturday to Tuesday remainder from the first week and a Tuesday to Friday remainder for the second week which would be available for booking by other flex owners, but not by weeks owners.  As long as flex owners do not make reservations that would use more than the equivalent of 5000 weeks reservations, they should be allowed to book any week that a regular individual floating week owner could book (weeks 1-50) on a first come first served basis, even if it exhausts the inventory of high demand weeks.

Eventually, there will be more active flex owners (> 5000) fighting for those 10 high demand weeks than if the 5000 trust weeks were in the hands of individual owners (= 5000) so I believe in the future it will be harder to get the high demand weeks if you're an individual weeks owner.  Luckily, the trust only owns IV weeks so if you own OV or OF, you'll have no new competition.  If you own IV, I think eventually, you'll be worse off as an individual owner.


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## DavidnRobin

Yikes... that took off. It looked to me that almost every IV (non- OV) B4 villa number was captured in listing - or did I read correctly?  If there are - I doubt they own all of these (or even close) specific deeds that account for the weeks/villa that have ability to float.

There were no B2 or B3 VOIs listed. Only B4


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## okwiater

DavidnRobin said:


> Yikes... that took off. It looked to me that almost every IV (non- OV) B4 villa number was captured in listing - or did I read correctly?  If there are - I doubt they own all of these (or even close) specific deeds that account for the weeks/villa that have ability to float.
> 
> There were no B2 or B3 VOIs listed. Only B4



Are you suggesting that Vistana might be conveying deeds for which it does not hold proper title? That seems unlikely to me.

It seems more likely that a block of B4 units had always been retained by Vistana to support the hotel operation. Now that Vistana has separated from Starwood, they've determined that it's more beneficial to bundle their existing "hotel" inventory into a Flex program than to continue marketing those units through SPG or Marriott.


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## Westnick

VacationForever said:


> Don't forget the unit number and week number is just for deeding purpose.  Unless it is a fixed week deed, it is meaningless.  Certainly Flex owners can book Week 9.


If this is true,then if there are 2 pools they are only seperated by views. If flex owners can book week 9 even though they don’t own a deed for that week that are taking it from the other pool. They could also reserve any week 1-15 at riverfront even though they don’t own any units in that season. Right?


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## VacationForever

Westnick said:


> If this is true,then if there are 2 pools they are only seperated by views. If flex owners can book week 9 even though they don’t own a deed for that week that are taking it from the other pool. They could also reserve any week 1-15 at riverfront even though they don’t own any units in that season. Right?


Yes but restricted by seasons.  There are separate inventories: Flex, SO at 8 months and weeks.


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## bizaro86

blondietink said:


> I think what he is asking is that if there are no week 9 units in the Flex program, can a Flex owner book a week 9 unit?


For Hawaii yes, because there is really no such thing as


Westnick said:


> If this is true,then if there are 2 pools they are only seperated by views. If flex owners can book week 9 even though they don’t own a deed for that week that are taking it from the other pool. They could also reserve any week 1-15 at riverfront even though they don’t own any units in that season. Right?



Not with respect to Riverfront. If there are no ski season weeks in the trust, trust owners will only be able to get ski weeks at 8 months, just like other folks with star option's.


----------



## duke

duke said:


> There don't have to be an equal number of weeks in the pool of the "good" resorts.  So, they will just buy resales on the open market or take back from owners who no longer want the weeks of the crappy resorts/seasons.  They then have flex weeks to sell but you don't know that they are made from weeks that you don't want.  So every thing balances until you go to make a reservation and the resorts or time periods or views are not available.  For example.  They buy up all the summer weeks at WMH and sell flex weeks to you thinking you are going to get into Hawaii.  In the meantime you are paying maintenance fees to support the summer months at WMH.  Or maybe they go on the open market and buy up all the Island View at WKORV.  You make reservations but you look at the parking lots.  The Goal for Vistana is to get you to pay maintenance fees for weeks no one wants and to kill the resale market (raise prices) so you will be glad to buy deeded view time units.



Told you so, however this may only be the "initial" allocation necessary to form the pool of units.  Over time, they will buy up cheap resales and increase the pool.  These exist for WPORV, WKORV OV, WMH, etc.  all it good seasons.  They kill the cheap resales and then sell developer units easier.


----------



## dioxide45

Westnick said:


> If this is true,then if there are 2 pools they are only seperated by views. If flex owners can book week 9 even though they don’t own a deed for that week that are taking it from the other pool. They could also reserve any week 1-15 at riverfront even though they don’t own any units in that season. Right?


They can only do that if they own some units that have deeded weeks 1-15. If they don't then they can't reserve those weeks.


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## dioxide45

I would expect at some time that they will add WSJ to the trust. Probably the lower season weeks. Which will of course drive up the MF in Flex. It took Marriott two years after they created their Destinations Club trust to add Frenchman's Cove. I suspect extra legal and regulatory steps that they probably need to take in order to convey weeks to the trust. Probably additional time just recording the deeds over to the trust in the USVI takes extra time.


----------



## tschwa2

It is also possible that Vistana has developer owned weeks that they have chosen not to deposit into the trust but may choose to make available to flex owners for the first several years and then continue to do so, or they could convey those weeks to the trust or they could stop making those weeks available.


----------



## cubigbird

dioxide45 said:


> I would expect at some time that they will add WSJ to the trust. Probably the lower season weeks. Which will of course drive up the MF in Flex. It took Marriott two years after they created their Destinations Club trust to add Frenchman's Cove. I suspect extra legal and regulatory steps that they probably need to take in order to convey weeks to the trust. Probably additional time just recording the deeds over to the trust in the USVI takes extra time.



I hope they don’t add WSJ.  It will make it even harder to book.  Plus, it seems like the MF for Westin Flex are rediculously high and are very unattractive. How much higher can it go??


----------



## bizaro86

cubigbird said:


> I hope they don’t add WSJ.  It will make it even harder to book.  Plus, it seems like the MF for Westin Flex are rediculously high and are very unattractive. How much higher can it go??



They will probably want to wait until they put a full resort/phase (Ie new phase at desert willow or riverfront) into the trust before adding off season wsj because that would help balance off the fees.

Also, it makes sense to wait for marketing purposes. If they wait another year or two, it will give them something else 'new' to pitch for owners updates.


----------



## Helios

I would not want them to add WSJ as I share @tschwa2 standpoint.  

On the flip side, if they wait too long they won’t have WSJ inventory.


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## SandyPGravel

I really haven't paid much attention to the Flex programs.  So my questions might be really dumb, but here goes.  If they add WSJ to Flex would it only be weeks in the voluntary sections?  Obviously Vistana owns some of the low season weeks in VGV.  VGV is mostly fixed week fixed unit right?  Vistana doesn't own too much high season VGV.  I asked for a very specific week/unit and nothing was available during my update in May.  Are the Hawaii weeks in Flex only at the voluntary resorts or are the mandatory resorts part of the flex deal?  As for inventory at the rest of WSJ, with the $25/night environmental tax, a lot more low season weeks might show up.  If the MF for the Westin Flex are already high, then add on the extra $175 to stay at WSJ, not so appealing.


----------



## dioxide45

SandyPGravel said:


> I really haven't paid much attention to the Flex programs.  So my questions might be really dumb, but here goes.  If they add WSJ to Flex would it only be weeks in the voluntary sections?  Obviously Vistana owns some of the low season weeks in VGV.  VGV is mostly fixed week fixed unit right?  Vistana doesn't own too much high season VGV.  I asked for a very specific week/unit and nothing was available during my update in May.  Are the Hawaii weeks in Flex only at the voluntary resorts or are the mandatory resorts part of the flex deal?  As for inventory at the rest of WSJ, with the $25/night environmental tax, a lot more low season weeks might show up.  If the MF for the Westin Flex are already high, then add on the extra $175 to stay at WSJ, not so appealing.


Two of the three resorts in Hawaii are mandatory. They have conveyed both mandatory and voluntary weeks to the Flex trust. They could do the same in WSJ. Once in the trust, Vistana grants the new owners access to the trust inventory from 12-8 months and then they can use VSN at 8 months.


----------



## SandyPGravel

I thought maybe the only Nanea and Princeville were in Flex from Hawaii. At least the fixed week fixed unit owners at WSJ are covered until the 10 month mark is WSJ gets thrown into the mix.


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## skibummer

I think one of the main problems of the flex programs (Westin and Sheraton) is the resale value for the unknown ease of access to the unknown season of voluntary properties of what the Flex Trust actually owns (they could be comprised of mainly low season weeks, but sold as access to prime weeks that don't exist). Too many "unknowns" in the above sentence (pun intended).

An annual Sheraton Flex for 81,000 HomeOptions just sold on eBay this week for $1 (one dollar) with annual MFs of $1287 (high). It was likely sold from the developer for over $20,000.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SHERATON-FLEX-81-000-H-O-ANNUAL-POINTS-TIMESHARE-FOR-SALE-/332502031115?
ul_noapp=true&nma=true&si=S26u6q%252FvT21FrLbjhrBLH42DPRI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

No thanks. I will take my resale mandatory resorts with StarOptions or buying a resale voluntary resort at a place I desire in the season I want to use vs. the "black box" of the various flex programs.

Caveat Emptor


----------



## VacationForever

skibummer said:


> No thanks. I will take my resale mandatory resorts with StarOptions or buying a resale voluntary resort at a place I desire in the season I want to use vs. the "black box" of the various flex programs.



I think you nailed it.  A mandatory resale can use SOs to book at all resorts.  It trumps any of these fragmented voluntary Flex systems as resale value trends to 0.


----------



## okwiater

I think Vistana should have just created a Flex program that combined access to all the resorts, instead of just some. This would have undermined the availability in VSN to some degree, but would have benefitted the developer sales schtick and may have even helped preserve some resale value.


----------



## VacationForever

okwiater said:


> I think Vistana should have just created a Flex program that combined access to all the resorts, instead of just some. This would have undermined the availability in VSN to some degree, but would have benefitted the developer sales schtick and may have even helped preserve some resale value.


+1


----------



## cubigbird

okwiater said:


> I think Vistana should have just created a Flex program that combined access to all the resorts, instead of just some. This would have undermined the availability in VSN to some degree, but would have benefitted the developer sales schtick and may have even helped preserve some resale value.



Just you wait, that’s probably the next product once these Flex systems run their course.  Can’t you imagine sales pitching “why own just Mexico (or the Sheratons) when you can book 12 months out everywhere!”

I agree, that’s the way they should have gone if they wanted a true points system.


----------



## DanZale2000

cubigbird said:


> Just you wait, that’s probably the next product once these Flex systems run their course.  Can’t you imagine sales pitching “why own just Mexico (or the Sheratons) when you can book 12 months out everywhere!”



This is what Diamond Resorts has been doing for quite some time. They have nine trust fund based subsystems called "collections" (these are trust fund deed pools similar to the flex systems). Then they have a propriety exchange system that sits on top to these. People buy points in one of the Diamond collections, and they gain access to other collections through the exchange club. Of course only developer purchased points have this "privilege;" it doesn't transfer with the sale of the points. Diamond can also charge a (very large) fee to join the exchange system (deeded owners at DRI resorts can do this, and resale point owners can do this (a bit like re-qualifying a deed in VSN)). Also, all the DRI loyalty benefits are offered through this framework. I'm not seeing any reason why ILG can't do something similar, maybe even including the new Hyatt point system.


----------



## cubigbird

What would it looks like for Nanea and WSJ (CV and SB) if they are added to Flex since they are already HomeOptions programs??


----------



## bizaro86

DanZale2000 said:


> This is what Diamond Resorts has been doing for quite some time. They have nine trust fund based subsystems called "collections" (these are trust fund deed pools similar to the flex systems). Then they have a propriety exchange system that site on top to these. People buy points in one of the Diamond collections, and they gain access to other collections through the exchange club. Of course only developer purchased points have this "privilege;" it doesn't transfer with the sale of the points. Diamond can also charge a (very large) fee to join the exchange system (deeded owners at DRI resorts can do this, and resale point owners can do this (a bit like re-qualifying a deed in VSN)). Also, all the DRI loyalty benefits are offered through this framework. I'm not seeing any reason why ILG can't do something similar, maybe even including the new Hyatt point system.



They basically already have done this. You can buy Sheraton,  Westin or Mexico flex, but if you want VSN access (just like THE Club) you need to buy developer. That access (just like THE Club) allows you to book from the other flex choices.


----------



## YYJMSP

DavidnRobin said:


> Yikes... that took off. It looked to me that almost every IV (non- OV) B4 villa number was captured in listing - or did I read correctly?  If there are - I doubt they own all of these (or even close) specific deeds that account for the weeks/villa that have ability to float.
> 
> There were no B2 or B3 VOIs listed. Only B4
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




if I read the unit numbers right, they included some corner deluxe units.  

how are they going to differentiate those from the regular units at 12-8mos, as deeded owners are limited to only being able to book that very specific inventory and don't have access to regular units until 8mos?

will flex owners have random access to those corner deluxe units, or will they charge a premium?  will deeded owners get access to less inventory than they should proportionally based on deeded vs flex pools?


----------



## Helios

cubigbird said:


> Just you wait, that’s probably the next product once these Flex systems run their course.  Can’t you imagine sales pitching “why own just Mexico (or the Sheratons) when you can book 12 months out everywhere!”
> 
> I agree, that’s the way they should have gone if they wanted a true points system.


I agree this is coming.  If it happens, how many rounds of selling the same unit will they get?


----------



## Helios

bizaro86 said:


> They basically already have done this. You can buy Sheraton,  Westin or Mexico flex, but if you want VSN access (just like THE Club) you need to buy developer. That access (just like THE Club) allows you to book from the other flex choices.


But this new overall flex would be better, it would let you book all resorts at 12 months vs 8 months at non home resorts...


----------



## ValleyGirl

Moparman42 said:


> I have been looking into this, and what pisses me off about it is, (as an owner at Nanea), I get to place my home reservations at Nanea at 8-12 months, now these 'flex' owners can reserve at any of the flex resorts at 8-12 months.  we both get the same 8 month treatment.  so this tells me that their points are more valuable than mine, but something ALSO tells me that MY maintenance fees will be higher.  I am disappointed in Vistana in regards to this program.  I will be doing an owners update later in 2018 when I stay at WKORV and will be drilling them hard on this one. (they REALLY don't like me when I go in with questions)..    I feel like they are devaluing my deeded week and giving a lot more people access to my home resort at 12 months.   so, play it safe and book early!


See post #13


----------



## bizaro86

Helios said:


> But this new overall flex would be better, it would let you book all resorts at 12 months vs 8 months at non home resorts...


OK then. $20k in new money enough?


----------



## Helios

bizaro86 said:


> OK then. $20k in new money enough?


It will be so good that $20K is a deal...of course, I am being sarcastic.  

Realistically, without endorsing anything, I think they would charge more.  They charge $20K to retro.  I know there are tricks to lower the amount, but the base is about (or was) about $20K depending on the location where you are purchasing the new VOI.


----------



## bizaro86

Helios said:


> It will be so good that $20K is a deal...of course, I am being sarcastic.
> 
> Realistically, without endorsing anything, I think they would charge more.  They charge $20K to retro.  I know there are tricks to lower the amount, but the base is about (or was) about $20K depending on the location where you are purchasing the new VOI.



I was also just kidding. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years they offer to trade sheraton flex units for a "whole Vistana flex" at a $20k pricepoint for the same number of options.


----------



## Helios

bizaro86 said:


> I was also just kidding. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years they offer to trade sheraton flex units for a "whole Vistana flex" at a $20k pricepoint for the same number of options.


I would’t be either.  The sad part is that people will fall...


----------



## vistana101

It's interesting. It seems they are creating a very fragmented product that will likely confuse consumers. You have regular deeded weeks, Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex, Westin Aventuras, and the "HomeOptions" product in St. John and Nanea. I think it's odd that they didn't take the time to combine these programs into something a bit more cohesive. I get their reasoning about how their pricing can be more flexible if the programs are separate, but on the other hand, I look at Marriott, which frankly has a much more cohesive, usable product, that encompasses all of their properties. The points requirements change based on the location and caliber of the resort, which all correspond directly to both your buy-in price and your maintenance fees. If Marriott, who has far more properties and usage options (they've done cruises for a while and also have other excursions and even rental houses), could create a simpler, more unified program that's dynamically priced, why can't Vistana?

That being said, the big issue I see with Marriott is that the points requirement is quite high for many properties, resulting in a high-buy in and MFs. (Think $50,000 buy-in and $1,600 MF for a 2 bedroom in semi-prime season in Orlando.)


----------



## VacationForever

vistana101 said:


> It's interesting. It seems they are creating a very fragmented product that will likely confuse consumers. You have regular deeded weeks, Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex, Westin Aventuras, and the "HomeOptions" product in St. John and Nanea. I think it's odd that they didn't take the time to combine these programs into something a bit more cohesive. I get their reasoning about how their pricing can be more flexible if the programs are separate, but on the other hand, I look at Marriott, which frankly has a much more cohesive, usable product, that encompasses all of their properties. The points requirements change based on the location and caliber of the resort, which all correspond directly to both your buy-in price and your maintenance fees. If Marriott, who has far more properties and usage options (they've done cruises for a while and also have other excursions and even rental houses), could create a simpler, more unified program that's dynamically priced, why can't Vistana?
> 
> That being said, the big issue I see with Marriott is that the points requirement is quite high for many properties, resulting in a high-buy in and MFs. (Think $50,000 buy-in and $1,600 MF for a 2 bedroom in semi-prime season in Orlando.)


That is why we changed route this year when our Marriott weeks got enrolled and decided to increase our Marriott timeshare holdings.  We have discussed about totally getting out of Vistana but we could use SOs to book at Westin Mission Hills.  We enjoy their daily golf clinics and also we could spend time with our neighbors who have lots of Vistana, all developer bought, and have joint vacations together.


----------



## gdstuart

lizap said:


> We are currently at a Hyatt in FL and they are being very aggressive with current owners to try to get them to convert to PP (similar to FLEX). ILG has seriously underestimated how much legacy owners are willing to pay to convert. Without a significant number of us who convert, they are going to have a product with little inventory for PP ( and FLEX for Westin).. My belief is that as soon as they realize they are not going to have enough inventory, the price to convert will be lowered to something similar to what Marriott offered legacy owners.


PMJI but Marriott finally lowered that price to 0, so I converted my Marriott Monarch week to 1900 DC points.  As long as your Marriott week was purchased prior to Dec. 2017, you can exercise this conversion.  Altho this post seems to be in the wrong forum, I just wanted to reply here since I'm sitting at Princeville for 3 nights (booked with StarPoints, not Star Options) and considering if I want to dip my toe into the Westin product.  I'm getting the impression that it might be better to sit back and observe what transpires with (1) the Marriott tender offer for ILG and (2) how this FLexPoints program plays out, before starting to shop for a Westin resale week or a bucket of StarPoints.


----------



## alexadeparis

vistana101 said:


> It's interesting. It seems they are creating a very fragmented product that will likely confuse consumers. You have regular deeded weeks, Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex, Westin Aventuras, and the "HomeOptions" product in St. John and Nanea. I think it's odd that they didn't take the time to combine these programs into something a bit more cohesive. I get their reasoning about how their pricing can be more flexible if the programs are separate, but on the other hand, I look at Marriott, which frankly has a much more cohesive, usable product, that encompasses all of their properties. The points requirements change based on the location and caliber of the resort, which all correspond directly to both your buy-in price and your maintenance fees. If Marriott, who has far more properties and usage options (they've done cruises for a while and also have other excursions and even rental houses), could create a simpler, more unified program that's dynamically priced, why can't Vistana?
> 
> That being said, the big issue I see with Marriott is that the points requirement is quite high for many properties, resulting in a high-buy in and MFs. (Think $50,000 buy-in and $1,600 MF for a 2 bedroom in semi-prime season in Orlando.)




I mean, didn't they pretty much have this with the original SVN that most of us belong to?
All the resorts belong to the original VSN and depending on your home interval, your MFs could vary widely for the same number of SOS. If you want a better 12 mo reservation you buy the better resort, if you don't care, you buy SVV for better buy in price.


----------



## Helios

gdstuart said:


> PMJI but Marriott finally lowered that price to 0, so I converted my Marriott Monarch week to 1900 DC points.  As long as your Marriott week was purchased prior to Dec. 2017, you can exercise this conversion.



Are you saying that now pre 12/17 can be enrolled by simply electing and without buying points?


----------



## dioxide45

Helios said:


> Are you saying that now pre 12/17 can be enrolled by simply electing and without buying points?


I was wondering the same thing...


----------



## VacationForever

... and I am wondering the same.


----------



## Helios

dioxide45 said:


> I was wondering the same thing...


I may have to check out this tomorrow AM.  Too hard to do in the phone screen.


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> I was wondering the same thing...


Reading other posts by gdstuart, his Monarch week was bought in 2006 through Marriott resales.


----------



## gdstuart

Helios said:


> Are you saying that now pre 12/17 can be enrolled by simply electing and without buying points?


Yes.  As long as you bought from the developer or from Marriott Resale, which I did.


----------



## vistana101

alexadeparis said:


> I mean, didn't they pretty much have this with the original SVN that most of us belong to?
> All the resorts belong to the original VSN and depending on your home interval, your MFs could vary widely for the same number of SOS. If you want a better 12 mo reservation you buy the better resort, if you don't care, you buy SVV for better buy in price.



That's true. I guess Vistana was relatively innovative in creating that system of a home resort and internal points trading right off the bat. 

These new programs give Vistana a great opportunity to create more inventory to sell with existing resorts/units, but I just wonder if they could have made it a bit simpler from the start, as now you have several different programs and purchasing methods for a single timeshare company.


----------



## dioxide45

gdstuart said:


> As long as your Marriott week was purchased prior to Dec. 2017, you can exercise this conversion.





gdstuart said:


> Yes.  As long as you bought from the developer or from Marriott Resale, which I did.


So the rule hasn't changed. The purchased prior to date is not December 2017, it is June 2010. As long as one purchased an external resale week prior to June 2010 or purchased a true developer week (not a Marriott Resales week) you can enroll the week in the Destinations Club program. Not necessarily sure why December 2017 was mentioned as that date really has no relevance on if you can enroll or not. Marriott has been offering some deals lately where people can enroll for varying fees or often for free with a presentation or Encore Package purchase.


----------



## Helios

dioxide45 said:


> So the rule hasn't changed. The purchased prior to date is not December 2017, it is June 2010. As long as one purchased an external resale week prior to June 2010 or purchased a true developer week (not a Marriott Resales week) you can enroll the week in the Destinations Club program. Not necessarily sure why December 2017 was mentioned as that date really has no relevance on if you can enroll or not. Marriott has been offering some deals lately where people can enroll for varying fees or often for free with a presentation or Encore Package purchase.


Just checked, rule has not changed...too bad...I actually got excited to potentially enroll my post 2010 resale KoOlina 2BROV.


----------



## Anne&Jim

Ok, so we just exited our owner update while staying on an Explorer package at the Westin Riverfront.  Here’s the scoop:

There are 6 properties included in Westin Flex:  WKOR, WKORN, WPR, WMH, WDW, WRF.

Yes, they are planning on building a new Westin Flex building on the opposite side of the WRF hotel from the current villas, but they don’t yet have all the approvals, so it will be a while before they can break ground.  Until then, the Westin Flex program will only have access to the units they have been able to gather (they would not say how many, but there are only 36 total, so the chance of getting a ski week in Flex will probably be difficult.)

As for the other properties, they would not say how much of the total Flex pool was at any resort, nor what seasons, only that they were required by Florida law to have “all seasons available.”  You can read between the lines that means they have units in the summer in Palm Desert, which no one in their right mind would think were as valuable as Hawaii or even Colorado.  In fact, I asked them outright, “why would I trade a week on Hawaii for the chance to get Hawaii, or more likely, summer in Palm Springs since we all know that’s probably what you have the most of.”  Our sales person was pretty direct and basically said he saw my point.  I thought it was interesting that they latched on to one of our Hawaii weeks as the unit they encouraged us to “upgrade”.  When I asked him why not upgrade our Christmas week at WMH instead (we would not have done that either) he said, “oh, you don’t want to do that — you got too good a price on that week!”  In other words, they aren’t interested in our WMH week — they probably have more of those than anything else.

Here’s what surprised me.  They only keep the deeded and the flex units separate between the 8-12 month reservation window.  After 8 months, they all go into a pool together, along with Nanea and every other property.  So if you don’t use your owner 8-12 month window, any flex owner  as well as all deeded owners share the same chance of booking.  I guess that’s no different from what happens today, but it was good to hear it straight from the developer.

They are offering an owner “discount” of something less than 10% of a cost they recently made up for this program, so hard to know if it’s worth anything at all:  $51,835 for 148,100 WF options, or $61,845 for 176,700 WF options.

So, it’s substantially more expensive than the weeks we already own, and probably more than buying a deeded property for the options, based on what I’ve seen on TUG.


----------



## Anne&Jim

One more thing I forgot to mention.  They confirmed that zero ocean front villas in Hawaii are in the Westin Flex program, nor “event weeks”.  They are reselling those as deeded weeks for a premium price.


----------



## GregT

Anne&Jim said:


> Here’s what surprised me.  They only keep the deeded and the flex units separate between the 8-12 month reservation window.  After 8 months, they all go into a pool together, along with Nanea and every other property.  So if you don’t use your owner 8-12 month window, any flex owner  as well as all deeded owners share the same chance of booking.  I guess that’s no different from what happens today, but it was good to hear it straight from the developer.
> 
> They are offering an owner “discount” of something less than 10% of a cost they recently made up for this program, so hard to know if it’s worth anything at all:  $51,835 for 148,100 WF options, or $61,845 for 176,700 WF options.



Interesting indeed.  I still have difficulty figuring out if this is going to impact the way we use our StarOptions today.  So they are selling mandatory StarOptions effectively and we will compete with those owners at the 8 month mark.  

I prefer that to the worst case where they would provide some preference to the WF Owner at 8 months out, but that would disenfranchise existing owners. 

Interesting stuff.   Thanks for posting!

Best,

Greg


----------



## Anne&Jim

I think it can’t help but increase the pressure at the 8 month mark.  Instead of having summer WMH and WDW owners without enough points to compete for Hawaii, those new WF owners will be trading 1:1 for Hawaii and elsewhere.


----------



## DavidnRobin

I think that for those that reserve exactly at 8 months - this will not be an issue.  Of course there will be increase in competition for location. From my experience with VSE Owners (non-Tuggers) - most do not plan far enough ahead (important aspect of VSE Ownership).


----------



## dioxide45

Anne&Jim said:


> Here’s what surprised me. They only keep the deeded and the flex units separate between the 8-12 month reservation window. After 8 months, they all go into a pool together, along with Nanea and every other property. So if you don’t use your owner 8-12 month window, any flex owner as well as all deeded owners share the same chance of booking. I guess that’s no different from what happens today, but it was good to hear it straight from the developer.


What about the resale voluntary flex owners? I would suspect that they may have to hold back some inventory for them after the eight month mark since they don't have access to SO reservations?


----------



## bizaro86

dioxide45 said:


> What about the resale voluntary flex owners? I would suspect that they may have to hold back some inventory for them after the eight month mark since they don't have access to SO reservations?



I suspect there will be lots of California summer inventory left for any resale owners who don't book soon enough...


----------



## VacationForever

I still think the Westin Flex price is crazy and won't have many takers.


----------



## bizaro86

VacationForever said:


> I still think the Westin Flex price is crazy and won't have many takers.



Seems like they are able to sell lots of Sheraton Flex, and this will have the "Hawaii access at 12 months" to upsell to existing owners.


----------



## cubigbird

VacationForever said:


> I still think the Westin Flex price is crazy and won't have many takers.



I agree and think that the upfront pricing is a huge turnoff.  I guess this is the result of what happens when you have to repackage what’s already expensive - WMH and WDW weeks. At what point do people catch on and it ultimately hurts sales??  Unfortunately there will be a lot of sugar in the meetings.  Hopefully this doesn’t breed much harder sales.....


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> I still think the Westin Flex price is crazy and won't have many takers.





bizaro86 said:


> Seems like they are able to sell lots of Sheraton Flex, and this will have the "Hawaii access at 12 months" to upsell to existing owners.





cubigbird said:


> I agree and think that the upfront pricing is a huge turnoff.  I guess this is the result of what happens when you have to repackage what’s already expensive - WMH and WDW weeks. At what points do people catch on and it ultimately hurts sales.  Unfortunately there will be a lot of sugar in the meetings.  Hopefully this doesn’t breed much harder sales.....



It really is no different than Marriott's DC program. When it first came out it was much more expensive than buying weeks. MFs were also much higher. Just the same. Marriott hasn't had issue selling their points and their stock price is soaring. I suspect that Vistana will have similar experiences selling their flex products.


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> It really is no different than Marriott's DC program. When it first came out it was much more expensive than buying weeks. MFs were also much higher. Just the same. Marriott hasn't had issue selling their points and their stock price is soaring. I suspect that Vistana will have similar experiences selling their flex products.


Maybe I am putting my blinders on but it feels that Marriott has a better value proposition than Vistana.  As you know I did not balk at buying from Marriott directly but have a real issue with the Westin Flex price.


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> It really is no different than Marriott's DC program. When it first came out it was much more expensive than buying weeks. MFs were also much higher. Just the same. Marriott hasn't had issue selling their points and their stock price is soaring. I suspect that Vistana will have similar experiences selling their flex products.



I generally agree with this, and remain puzzled where Vistana is going to get the inventory needed to satisfy demand.

Marriott did the brilliant thing of allowing existing owners to enroll and give up their rights to the critically needed weeks (and at a discount, no less).

I wonder how Vistana is going to satisfy the Flex Owner who wants to go to Hawaii - Maui first, then Kauai when Maui isn’t available.

The owners of the underlying weeks aren’t incentivized to give up their usage.  They are already in (Direct or Mandatory) and they aren’t getting a premium of points to spend on the other properties to entice them to give up control (Marriott Hawaii owners got tons of points for their week) and the Westin portfolio has a limited number of properties.  And why doesn’t it include all Westin properties (Kierland would be cool to add)?

It’s an odd system. I remain curious to see how it matures.

Best,

Greg


----------



## VacationForever

GregT said:


> I generally agree with this, and remain puzzled where Vistana is going to get the inventory needed to satisfy demand.
> 
> Marriott did the brilliant thing of allowing existing owners to enroll and give up their rights to the critically needed weeks (and at a discount, no less).
> 
> I wonder how Vistana is going to satisfy the Flex Owner who wants to go to Hawaii - Maui first, then Kauai.
> 
> The owners of the underlying weeks aren’t incentivized to give up their usage.  They are already in (Direct or Mandatory) and they aren’t getting a premium of points to spend on the other properties.  And the portfolio has a limited number of properties.
> 
> It’s an odd system. I remain curious to see how it matures.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


I think Vistana is getting inventory filled through ROFR.


----------



## bizaro86

GregT said:


> I generally agree with this, and remain puzzled where Vistana is going to get the inventory needed to satisfy demand.
> 
> Marriott did the brilliant thing of allowing existing owners to enroll and give up their rights to the critically needed weeks (and at a discount, no less).
> 
> I wonder how Vistana is going to satisfy the Flex Owner who wants to go to Hawaii - Maui first, then Kauai when Maui isn’t available.
> 
> The owners of the underlying weeks aren’t incentivized to give up their usage.  They are already in (Direct or Mandatory) and they aren’t getting a premium of points to spend on the other properties to entice them to give up control (Marriott Hawaii owners got tons of points for their week) and the Westin portfolio has a limited number of properties.  And why doesn’t it include all Westin properties (Kierland would be cool to add)?
> 
> It’s an odd system. I remain curious to see how it matures.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


Vistana has the advantage of already having a point system in place. Because flex owners get access to everything available at 8 months, there is less of a need for them to have the trust "full" to start with. Thus, they probably concluded it was more lucrative to get less sign ups from existing owners at very high prices than to get most people to sign up at lower prices.


----------



## Bird01

A sales agent told me that Westin Kierland Villas (WKV) is coming into the Flex Program. Anyone know anything about that. Also, can anyone confirm the annual fees for the 148,100 properties under Flex. I saw the one post earlier.


----------



## okwiater

Bird01 said:


> A sales agent told me that Westin Kierland Villas (WKV) is coming into the Flex Program. Anyone know anything about that. Also, can anyone confirm the annual fees for the 148,100 properties under Flex. I saw the one post earlier.



I’ve heard the same thing and would not be surprised to see it happen. However, it may not be Platinum Plus season.


----------



## cdirik

We have recently gone through a sales pitch for Vistana Flex and Aventuras. We already own SO from Westin Desert Willow. We were first offered more SO through Flex program (as an add-on). As a follow up offer, they agreed to take back our current ownership and replace it with Flex or Aventuras. There is definitely a push by Vistana to sell more Flex and/or Aventuras. Details of the packages are very fuzzy and confusing.


----------



## DavidnRobin

There is a 2Bd WKV (low season) sitting on RedWeek for $900. If WKV is going into Flex (and no ROFR), wouldn't this be quickly snapped up by VSE? Or are they waiting until $0?


----------



## okwiater

DavidnRobin said:


> There is a 2Bd WKV (low season) sitting on RedWeek for $900. If WKV is going into Flex (and no ROFR), wouldn't this be quickly snapped up by VSE? Or are they waiting until $0?



Are there any confirmed instances of VSE purchasing weeks on the open market? I've only heard of ROFR and "upgrade" transactions.


----------



## cdirik

Newbie here, so sorry about this question.
What is ROFR in this context?


----------



## nuwermj

cdirik said:


> Newbie here, so sorry about this question.
> What is ROFR in this context?



ROFR = "In its simplest term, ROFR is the concept of a resort matching a resale offer of a timeshare themselves instead of letting the interval get sold to another owner for an extremely low price."
http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/what_does_ROFR_mean_for_timeshares.html

If I make an offer to buy the WKV Redweek listing and the owner accepts the offer, and if the deed contains a ROFR clause, then Vistana has the right to replace me as the buyer. They pay the same I am offering. If Vistana refuses to buy the deed, then I get it. 

In this context, Vistana needs inventory for their new Flex system. Exercising a ROFR on all or many resale market deals is one way they can obtain that inventory, and then deposit it into the Flex trust fund. After deposited into the trust, Vistana has FlexOptions it can sell.


----------



## VacationForever

nuwermj said:


> ROFR = "In its simplest term, ROFR is the concept of a resort matching a resale offer of a timeshare themselves instead of letting the interval get sold to another owner for an extremely low price."
> http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/what_does_ROFR_mean_for_timeshares.html
> 
> If I make an offer to buy the WKV Redweek listing and the owner accepts the offer, and if the deed contains a ROFR clause, then Vistana has the right to replace me as the buyer. They pay the same I am offering. If Vistana refuses to buy the deed, then I get it.
> 
> In this context, Vistana needs inventory for their new Flex system. Exercising a ROFR on all or many resale market deals is one way they can obtain that inventory, and then deposit it into the Flex trust fund. After deposited into the trust, Vistana has FlexOptions it can sell.


...and most of Vistana resorts do not have ROFR.


----------



## dioxide45

DavidnRobin said:


> There is a 2Bd WKV (low season) sitting on RedWeek for $900. If WKV is going into Flex (and no ROFR), wouldn't this be quickly snapped up by VSE? Or are they waiting until $0?





okwiater said:


> Are there any confirmed instances of VSE purchasing weeks on the open market? I've only heard of ROFR and "upgrade" transactions.


I agree with okwiater here. I don't think Vistana goes out on the open market to purchase resale weeks. They rely on buybacks (from the HOA from foreclosure) and ROFR where applicable. I am not aware of any developer that actively goes out to buy on the secondary market other than offering buybacks to existing owners. They don't really like the middle man involved.


----------



## Mulege

Which Vistana resorts have ROFR?


----------



## Mulege

I just got back from Laguna Mar and went to an owner update. Here was their Adventuras offer.

Take back my EOY 2BR Gold season
Enroll my 2BR Ocean Front Good Season resale I purchased into the program
Add this offer with my current 3 Star Elite to make me 5 Star Elite
$19,500 price.

I only go to Cancun and rent out my WORV and exchange WMH for renting. Not interseted in going to the other resorts.  Been there and done them. 5 Star has no benefit to me.  No pressure from the closer.  Walked out in 90 minutes and got my $125 resort credit.


----------



## VacationForever

Bobw said:


> Exchange WMH for renting.



??? You are not allowed to rent an exchange, whether it is through II or using Star Options to book.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Directly from the VSE/VSN Reservation Confirmations:
*"Rental of units reserved using StarOptions (other than a vacation period at your Home Resort) is prohibited. Violation may result in the suspension of an Owner’s right to reserve within Vistana™ Signature Network until compliant."*


----------



## Mulege

DavidnRobin said:


> Directly from the VSE/VSN Reservation Confirmations:
> *"Rental of units reserved using StarOptions (other than a vacation period at your Home Resort) is prohibited. Violation may result in the suspension of an Owner’s right to reserve within Vistana™ Signature Network until compliant."*



You are correct. I own MH so I should have been clearer. No options used, Home Resort. 
Thanks.


----------



## controller1

Bobw said:


> I just got back from Laguna Mar and went to an owner update. Here was their Adventuras offer.
> 
> Take back my EOY 2BR Gold season
> Enroll my 2BR Ocean Front Good Season resale I purchased into the program
> Add this offer with my current 3 Star Elite to make me 5 Star Elite
> $19,500 price.
> 
> I only go to Cancun and rent out my WORV and exchange WMH for renting. Not interseted in going to the other resorts.  Been there and done them. 5 Star has no benefit to me.  No pressure from the closer.  Walked out in 90 minutes and got my $125 resort credit.



I'm not sure the math works out for this.

If you are currently 3-Star Elite, the maximum number of StarOptions you have is 358,999 while the minimum number of StarOptions required for 5-Star Elite is 649,000.  How does the above transaction qualify for at least an additional 290,001 StarOptions?


----------



## DavidnRobin

Agree - especially giving back SOs (which had to go to 3*) - Adventuras ain’t that cheap... $19,500 for 300K+ SOs?  From VSE?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mulege

DavidnRobin said:


> Agree - especially giving back SOs (which had to go to 3*) - Adventuras ain’t that cheap... $19,500 for 300K+ SOs?  From VSE?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Math aside making me 5 star was part of th


----------



## Mulege

Bobw said:


> Math aside making me 5 star was part of th



Their offer. They were taking my 2br ocean front resale which had no SO and bringing it Into the Adventuras system now giving me additional SO. Just as if I had bought it from Starwood. If the math isn’t there they were using 5 star as an incentive to close I guess as they said I was close based on my ownership. Since I don’t care about Elite status I didn’t do the math. I just wanted to get out and collect my $125. If they fudge it is their company. I’m just trying to tell you all my experience.


----------



## iqmavin

DeniseM said:


> I'm not surprised - since they made Nanea a Flex resort, it was only a matter of time before they created a new group.
> 
> This is a way for VSE to repackage Westin Mission Hills which is struggling as a voluntary resort with high maintenance fees.
> 
> During the 12-8 month owner's priority period, Flex owners will only be able to exchange for reservations _in the flex pool_ - not the deeded weeks inventory that already belongs to owners.
> 
> From the start, this will really impact Nanea, because all Nanea reservations will be available to everyone in this group during the owner's reservation period.  But at least to begin with, it shouldn't impact the other 3 Hawaii resorts as much.  But eventually, as more and more deeds are sucked into the Flex pool inventory, there will be less and less Staroption availability.
> 
> (If I was a Nanea owner, I would be be po'd about this!)
> 
> It will probably mean that after Jan. 4th, you will only be able to buy FlexOptions from the developer at the 6 resorts in this group, but you can still buy deeded weeks on the resale market.  However, it may mean that VSE will actively pursue more resales, or exercise ROFR more often, to acquire inventory for the Flex Pool.
> 
> As Robert said, this is a bad deal for owners/buyers, and a good deal for VSE.




It seems to me that since Vistana merged w Marriott they've diluted the value of their options and are restricting access to non-owners. Still too soon to tell but I sat through one of those repackage deals and almost bought because the Rep was so easy going. Note I Almost bought. Thank you all you tigers' for keeping it real.


----------



## DeniseM

Vistana and Marriott have not merged...

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk


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## DavidnRobin

Bobw said:


> Their offer. They were taking my 2br ocean front resale which had no SO and bringing it Into the Adventuras system now giving me additional SO. Just as if I had bought it from Starwood. If the math isn’t there they were using 5 star as an incentive to close I guess as they said I was close based on my ownership. Since I don’t care about Elite status I didn’t do the math. I just wanted to get out and collect my $125. If they fudge it is their company. I’m just trying to tell you all my experience.



So... you are buying/getting enough SOs to get from 3* to 5* (290,000 plus - more likely more) for ~$20K - is that correct? Even after trading back OF resale.
What is "my 2br ocean front' mean? What resort?  Resale SOs at V resorts can't be used for VSN, but they do have SOs associated with them.
Your details are too light in description... but, you are claiming getting a lot of SOs for only ~$20K.


----------



## bizaro86

I took that to me they offered to requal a 148k 2 bedroom ocean 'front' at LagunaMar, plus traded in a eoy gold lagunamar for credit toward the new Aventura flex.


----------



## hawaii gal

iqmavin said:


> It seems to me that since Vistana merged w Marriott they've diluted the value of their options and are restricting access to non-owners. Still too soon to tell but I sat through one of those repackage deals and almost bought because the Rep was so easy going. Note I Almost bought. Thank you all you tigers' for keeping it real.



Just received a pitch for flex while at Kierland. Own OF (Kaanapali north) and OV (Kaanapali south). Will not sell OF, but thinking of turning OV into Flex because we have never been able to get to SW US properties during winter months cause can't get in. My gut tells me that 'giving up' the deeded owner status at Hawaii to join a larger pool of folks trying to get in is not a good idea. Also, now concerned that as FLEX pool grows that OWNERS pool of units will diminish and we won't get good unit location despite calling 12 months in advance. NEED feedback from others before I make a decision!


----------



## hawaii gal

DeniseM said:


> I'm not surprised - since they made Nanea a Flex resort, it was only a matter of time before they created a new group.
> 
> This is a way for VSE to repackage Westin Mission Hills which is struggling as a voluntary resort with high maintenance fees.
> 
> During the 12-8 month owner's priority period, Flex owners will only be able to exchange for reservations _in the flex pool_ - not the deeded weeks inventory that already belongs to owners.
> 
> From the start, this will really impact Nanea, because all Nanea reservations will be available to everyone in this group during the owner's reservation period.  But at least to begin with, it shouldn't impact the other 3 Hawaii resorts as much.  But eventually, as more and more deeds are sucked into the Flex pool inventory, there will be less and less Staroption availability.
> 
> (If I was a Nanea owner, I would be be po'd about this!)
> 
> It will probably mean that after Jan. 4th, you will only be able to buy FlexOptions from the developer at the 6 resorts in this group, but you can still buy deeded weeks on the resale market.  However, it may mean that VSE will actively pursue more resales, or exercise ROFR more often, to acquire inventory for the Flex Pool.
> 
> As Robert said, this is a bad deal for owners/buyers, and a good deal for VSE.



I just posted at the very end of this thread concerns about converting an every year OV at Kaanapali South to Flex that would cost more in initial offer AND MF's.  Would very much like feedback.


----------



## vacationtime1

hawaii gal said:


> Just received a pitch for flex while at Kierland. Own OF (Kaanapali north) and OV (Kaanapali south). Will not sell OF, but thinking of turning OV into Flex because we have never been able to get to SW US properties during winter months cause can't get in. *My gut tells me that 'giving up' the deeded owner status at Hawaii to join a larger pool of folks trying to get in is not a good idea.* Also, now concerned that as FLEX pool grows that OWNERS pool of units will diminish and we won't get good unit location despite calling 12 months in advance. NEED feedback from others before I make a decision!



Go with your gut.

My initial reaction when I heard that Vistana was asking for people to relinquish their WKORV deeds and accept FlexOptions in their place was how much Vistana was paying them to accept a lesser class of ownership (and one without any resale value).


----------



## hawaii gal

They were quite insistent that the new flex option was in fact deeded. But based on your comment, I would lose any resale value? That all by itself is enough not to do this. Can't help but wonder as well, that if they can convince enough owners to do this, that the pool of original deeded owners will shrink so much that we lose any leverage at all.


----------



## dioxide45

hawaii gal said:


> They were quite insistent that the new flex option was in fact deeded. But based on your comment, I would lose any resale value? That all by itself is enough not to do this. Can't help but wonder as well, that if they can convince enough owners to do this, that the pool of original deeded owners will shrink so much that we lose any leverage at all.


Flex is a deeded interest in a real estate trust. You don't own a week and don't have any home resort priority. As for the loss of resale value, it is because Flex is voluntary VSN. Meaning the StarOptions don't transfer on resale, so they are not as desirable to own. That may change if the weeks in the trust pool get better and booking in trust is easier. The problem is if you own a resale Westin Flex, you can't book Sheraton properties with points. If you own Sheraton Flex resale, you can't book Westin properties with StarOptions.


----------



## hawaii gal

Really appreciating these comments. If anyone has additional points of view on why...or why not... sell/convert my yearly OV WKORV to flex; it would be helpful.


----------



## controller1

dioxide45 said:


> Flex is a deeded interest in a real estate trust. *You* don't own a week and *don't have any home resort priority*. As for the loss of resale value, it is because Flex is voluntary VSN. Meaning the StarOptions don't transfer on resale, so they are not as desirable to own. That may change if the weeks in the trust pool get better and booking in trust is easier. The problem is if you own a resale Westin Flex, you can't book Sheraton properties with points. If you own Sheraton Flex resale, you can't book Westin properties with StarOptions.



Could you give more info on what I've highlighted?  Are you saying a Flex owner would not have a Home Resort Period for reservations?


----------



## vacationtime1

hawaii gal said:


> Really appreciating these comments. If anyone has additional points of view on why...or why not... sell/convert my yearly OV WKORV to flex; it would be helpful.



You would be giving up your WKORV-OV week (which has resale value) plus cash (which has immediate value) for something with no resale value.  What's that -- $25 -35K? 

What do you get in return?  The chance to reserve whatever properties are in the trust at the twelve month mark (rather than at eight months, which you can already do with your WKORV StarOptions).  How do you know that Kierland or Mission Hills will be available at the eight month mark (do *not *rely on the salesman's representation)?

If you want to reserve Kierland during platinum season, buy a platinum Kierland week for $14-16K (which will be worth about that much should you decide to sell it).


----------



## bizaro86

controller1 said:


> Could you give more info on what I've highlighted?  Are you saying a Flex owner would not have a Home Resort Period for reservations?



Flex owners only have home resort priority for the deeds that are in the trust, not everything at a given resort. And I think the trust is mostly off season weeks.


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## DeniseM

I absolutely would not do it - it will tremendously devalue your timeshare.  

Right now you own a deeded week that has Staroptions if you resale it - the Staroptions add significantly to it's resale value.

If you convert to Flex, and want to sell it later, *the Staroptions will not transfer to the buyer*, and that will really hurt the resale value.

This is a bad deal for you!


----------



## hawaii gal

vacationtime1 said:


> You would be giving up your WKORV-OV week (which has resale value) plus cash (which has immediate value) for something with no resale value.  What's that -- $25 -35K?
> 
> What do you get in return?  The chance to reserve whatever properties are in the trust at the twelve month mark (rather than at eight months, which you can already do with your WKORV StarOptions).  How do you know that Kierland or Mission Hills will be available at the eight month mark (do *not *rely on the salesman's representation)?
> 
> If you want to reserve Kierland during platinum season, buy a platinum Kierland week for $14-16K (which will be worth about that much should you decide to sell it).



I think the most impactful thing you have said is to spend the same amount of $ as the additional cash we would have to spend for the conversion and just buy a platinum week at Kierland! I am assuming this would be on the resale market as it has been my understanding that they have been 'sold out' for some time.


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## DeniseM

Yes - you will save tens of thousand of dollars buying resale.


----------



## hawaii gal

So does anyone know this...once reservations are made (lets say WKORV Ocean View) who is going to get priority on 'location of lockoff'...a 3 star deeded OWNER...or a 3 star FLEX? This is one of the points that keeps coming into our discussions....


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## DeniseM

This shouldn't change - it will be based on how early you make the reservation.  Your Elite Status doesn't change that.


----------



## hawaii gal

DeniseM said:


> This shouldn't change - it will be based on how early you make the reservation.  Your Elite Status doesn't change that.


I think we were wondering more if 'owner' had more leverage than 'flex' if reservation timing was same. Also, we were pitched that if we upgraded to 4star then preference would occur.


----------



## hawaii gal

Can anyone explain what the real motivation is for creating the Flex program? Seems to me that it ultimately creates more owners with access to the premier properties (Hawaii)?


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## DeniseM

Their real motivation is to make more money.  Nothing more.


----------



## dioxide45

hawaii gal said:


> Can anyone explain what the real motivation is for creating the Flex program? Seems to me that it ultimately creates more owners with access to the premier properties (Hawaii)?


It seems to be an easier product to sell when all you were left with was low/shoulder season weeks with perhaps a few high season. Selling more weeks does the same thing as you are describing. More owners competing against each other for prime reservations, especially in Hawaii where the entire season is platinum and there are only perhaps about a dozen high season weeks that most people really want.


----------



## bizaro86

hawaii gal said:


> Can anyone explain what the real motivation is for creating the Flex program? Seems to me that it ultimately creates more owners with access to the premier properties (Hawaii)?



They can tell people who are buying a box of mostly low season weeks that they can (theoretically) book high season weeks/Hawaii. It makes it way easier to sell something nobody wants.


----------



## vacationtime1

hawaii gal said:


> I think we were wondering more if 'owner' had more leverage than 'flex' if reservation timing was same. Also,* we were pitched that if we upgraded to 4star then preference would occur*.



This is a lie.

If it were true, a 5* owner could make a reservation months after an ordinary owner and receive the better view.  We know that does not happen; view priority is set by timestamp (reservation number).

Stop trusting your salesperson (or demand that such promises be put into writing because you are relying on them in making this purchase; see how fast they back off).


----------



## DeniseM

To add to what Robert said - sales people lie - they will tell you what ever it takes to make a sell.


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## DavidnRobin

I have always made my reservations exactly at window opening - even before online reservations.  I have always had excellent locations. Small statistic overall, but appears that Timestamp rules. YMMV


----------



## Markus

bizaro86 said:


> They can tell people who are buying a box of mostly low season weeks that they can (theoretically) book high season weeks/Hawaii. It makes it way easier to sell something nobody wants.


I think we need to clarify a point made here. The Hawaii weeks that are in the trust are all high season weeks. There are no low season weeks in Hawaii. Also the Westin Deset Willow weeks are comprised of inventory of new buildings where deeds were never initially sold. These represent 4 properties in the trust. I am not aware of the make up of the other properties but Vistana needed to ensure that all seasons were represented, so there are floating weeks in every period. In terms of Kierland, the inventory is very small, and likely made up of the last association sale.

In owning this product you have home resort priority (12 month reservation window) at all 6 resorts. So while not as good as StarOptions on resale, still there are 6 resorts in this mini network.

I am considering a purchase. For $10K, and two voluntary eoy deeds, I get 100,000 annual home options, use an explorer towards the purchase, get a bunch of SPG points, and retro a platinum plus 3 bed in St John.

Markus


----------



## dioxide45

Markus said:


> There are no low season weeks in Hawaii. Also the Westin Deset Willow weeks are comprised of inventory of new buildings where deeds were never initially sold. These represent 4 properties in the trust.


I don't think Nanea is in Westin Flex. It has its own trusts. So wouldn't this only represent three properties?


----------



## hawaii gal

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think Nanea is in Westin Flex. It has its own trusts. So wouldn't this only represent three properties?


Westin Flex as it was presented to us... includes both Kaanapali's, Kierland, Desert Willow, Kauai, Mission Hills and Riverfront. The one question we keep asking that does has an evasive answer is that despite being able to make a reservation at all of the properties now at 12-8 months out...what will be availability....

But...if we would consider purchasing more 'options' that would move us to 4 star then....

All seems too squishy. Considering what I already own (all Hawaii) I most like Robert's suggestion of spending the same amount of $ and just buying a Premium Plus at Kierland.


----------



## blondietink

Also I think people are forgetting the higher yearly maintenance fees associated with the trust products vs. the deeded weeks people already own.  We went to the presentation in both Hawaii and Mexico.  Both of those trust products were presented to us and they both had higher yearly fees for virtually the same amount of options that we already own.


----------



## Markus

The fees in the Westin Flex will be lower than Hawaii because they are averaged down by the weight of the other properties in the trust outside of Hawaii. This is the vase because the fees are lower at the non Hawaii properties.

Markus


----------



## hawaii gal

Markus said:


> I think we need to clarify a point made here. The Hawaii weeks that are in the trust are all high season weeks. There are no low season weeks in Hawaii. Also the Westin Deset Willow weeks are comprised of inventory of new buildings where deeds were never initially sold. These represent 4 properties in the trust. I am not aware of the make up of the other properties but Vistana needed to ensure that all seasons were represented, so there are floating weeks in every period. In terms of Kierland, the inventory is very small, and likely made up of the last association sale.
> 
> In owning this product you have home resort priority (12 month reservation window) at all 6 resorts. So while not as good as StarOptions on resale, still there are 6 resorts in this mini network.
> 
> I am considering a purchase. For $10K, and two voluntary eoy deeds, I get 100,000 annual home options, use an explorer towards the purchase, get a bunch of SPG points, and retro a platinum plus 3 bed in St John.
> 
> Markus


Need to clarify...when seeking a reservation...available units are determined with the added filter that only flex units are available for flex owners and deeded units to deeded owners?


----------



## vacationtime1

hawaii gal said:


> Need to clarify...when seeking a reservation...available units are determined with the added filter that only flex units are available for flex owners and deeded units to deeded owners?



Theoretically, yes.  

In Marriott-land, they "exchange" units between the Destination Club and its Exchange Club.  This is all done behind an opaque curtain and we don't get to know what is actually exchanged for what.  But for eight years, it has worked fairly smoothly and weeks owners have not felt shortchanged.  I don't know whether Vistana plans something similar for Flex.


----------



## JIMinNC

Markus said:


> I think we need to clarify a point made here. The Hawaii weeks that are in the trust are all high season weeks. There are no low season weeks in Hawaii.



True, but not all Hawaii high season weeks are created equal. While all weeks are "high season", April-May and September to Mid-December in Hawaii have less demand than summer and January-March. That's why when Marriott Vacation Club created their trust point schedule they set up a two-tier points structure for Hawaii vs the old single Platinum season used in their old Weeks system. The interesting thing to know about Westin Flex would be how many of those "high season" Hawaii weeks are in the *true* high season in summer and winter?


----------



## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> True, but not all Hawaii high season weeks are created equal. While all weeks are "high season", April-May and September to Mid-December in Hawaii have less demand than summer and January-March. That's why when Marriott Vacation Club created their trust point schedule they set up a two-tier points structure for Hawaii vs the old single Platinum season used in their old Weeks system. The interesting thing to know about Westin Flex would be how many of those "high season" Hawaii weeks are in the *true* high season in summer and winter?


It shouldn't matter since those Hawaii weeks are for the most part, floating.


----------



## tschwa2

Markus said:


> The fees in the Westin Flex will be lower than Hawaii because they are averaged down by the weight of the other properties in the trust outside of  Hawaii. This is the vase because the fees are lower at the non Hawaii properties.
> 
> Markus



Yes but you are also throwing in some low season,low option weeks that have the same MF as the platinum weeks.
How much is MF for 148,100 westin flex?

Found it on page 4:  Annual fees are $2,697 for the 148,100 SOs (2018)


----------



## VacationForever

tschwa2 said:


> Yes but you are also throwing in some low season,low option weeks that have the same MF as the platinum weeks.
> How much is MF for 148,100 westin flex?
> 
> Found it on page 4:  Annual fees are $2,697 for the 148,100 SOs (2018)


OUCH.


----------



## vacationtime1

tschwa2 said:


> Yes but you are also throwing in some low season,low option weeks that have the same MF as the platinum weeks.
> How much is MF for 148,100 westin flex?
> 
> Found it on page 4:  Annual fees are $2,697 for the 148,100 SOs (2018)



About the same as WKORVN.  Almost $400 more than WKORV.  Nearly a thousand more than WMH.  $1,100 more than Kierland.  (in each case for a 2bd annual with 148100 SO's)

Looks like a windfall for Vistana.


----------



## tschwa2

vacationtime1 said:


> About the same as WKORVN.  Almost $400 more than WKORV.  Nearly a thousand more than WMH.  $1,100 more than Kierland.  (in each case for a 2bd annual with 148100 SO's)
> 
> Looks like a windfall for Vistana.


Not really.  Not everyone owns platinum.  There are WMH owners that pay $1600 and only get 56, 300 options.  In the new system they could sell 60,000 options with a MF of $1095.  

I think it is a terrible deal but there is ways that Vistana can spin it to make it look way more attractive than it is.


----------



## hawaii gal

tschwa2 said:


> Not really.  Not everyone owns platinum.  There are WMH owners that pay $1600 and only get 56, 300 options.  In the new system they could sell 60,000 options with a MF of $1095.
> 
> I think it is a terrible deal but there is ways that Vistana can spin it to make it look way more attractive than it is.



Can't tell you how much my eyes have been opened by this conversation. Still irritated at how much emphasis sales team put on us, that if we upgraded to 4 or 5 star tier that it would definitely influence location at resort. But that's a whole other conversation...based on how much many spend on multiple weeks, I still can't wrap my head around any significant benefit that justifies that much $$.


----------



## tschwa2

hawaii gal said:


> Can't tell you how much my eyes have been opened by this conversation. Still irritated at how much emphasis sales team put on us, that if we upgraded to 4 or 5 star tier that it would definitely influence location at resort. But that's a whole other conversation...based on how much many spend on multiple weeks, I still can't wrap my head around any significant benefit that justifies that much $$.



There isn't really any advantage for 98%+ of potential buyers.  It is just a way to repackage what they were having difficulty selling along with trade ins and new inventory and a new hook or imaginary reason for current owners to "upgrade"- which for many would actually be a down grade.  But that is the point of sales.  I have been at the car rental counter with a full size where they tried to get me to pay more for the luxury model.  When I declined they tried to get me to "upgrade" to a more gas efficient (non hybrid) compact car -which I could have originally booked for less.  Sales is the art of selling ice to an Eskimo.  It doesn't matter what it is, it is something new for them to sell you on all the sizzle while glossing over or failing to mention all of the down sides.   If everything else where equal about 2 owners booking (same time, same resort , same dates, etc) the higher level elite would have a leg up.  So what they are saying is true but is it ever going to come down to 2 owners booking at the exact same time, for the exact same property and size and date? The implication is that the 4 star elite would have the same leg up if the bookings were made days, weeks or even months apart with the 4 star booking later and still getting the choice placement but that is not necessarily what was said.


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> It shouldn't matter since those Hawaii weeks are for the most part, floating.



Valid point. I failed to consider that. A October Hawaii floating week would have the same right to book February or July as any other. I guess the only real variable would then be view. What views are in the Flex? Are they all the lesser views?


----------



## hawaii gal

JIMinNC said:


> Valid point. I failed to consider that. A October Hawaii floating week would have the same right to book February or July as any other. I guess the only real variable would then be view. What views are in the Flex? Are they all the lesser views?



When we go to Hawaii, view and location in building makes a big difference for us. (to the degree that our next purchase was an OF) So, I told them that one of my major concerns about giving up the WKORV with OV for flex and still called at 12 months was there ever a chance due to occupancy (we typically go Feb-March) that I could potentially end up with garden view? I was told it was 'unlikely' because they would see I was a 3 star. It was not a convincing answer to my question.


----------



## dioxide45

hawaii gal said:


> When we go to Hawaii, view and location in building makes a big difference for us. (to the degree that our next purchase was an OF) So, I told them that one of my major concerns about giving up the WKORV with OV for flex and still called at 12 months was there ever a chance due to occupancy (we typically go Feb-March) that I could potentially end up with garden view? I was told it was 'unlikely' because they would see I was a 3 star. It was not a convincing answer to my question.


Since OV at the Hawaii properties have a higher SO cost, those units have to be available at time of booking. Not available, then you are out of luck. Regardless of whatever elite status level you are. Now, with higher elite levels, you can waitlist but it has been reported that waitlist doesn't work very well.


----------



## duke

Hey hawaii gal:  I think everyone here is recommending that you 1) should believe the salesperson, 2) that going from 3* to 4* will get you a better view, 3) should trade your WKORV OV deeded unit for the Flex basket of low demand weeks, and 4) pay extra cash out of your pocket so Vistana can give higher commissions to it's staff.


----------



## hawaii gal

duke said:


> Hey hawaii gal:  I think everyone here is recommending that you 1) should believe the salesperson, 2) that going from 3* to 4* will get you a better view, 3) should trade your WKORV OV deeded unit for the Flex basket of low demand weeks, and 4) pay extra cash out of your pocket so Vistana can give higher commissions to it's staff.



totally


----------



## dioxide45

vacationtime1 said:


> Looks like a windfall for Vistana.


Not necessarily. The MFs for the trust go to pay the MFs for the underlying deeded weeks. The inherent problem with trusts is that built in the MFs is a management fee and other bloat. Then there is bloat and fees associated with operating a trust. You have a BOD at each HOA as well as a board that oversee the trust. So it is bloat on top of bloat. That is why the MFs in these kinds of trusts gets so out of hand.


----------



## controller1

dioxide45 said:


> Since OV at the Hawaii properties have a higher SO cost, those units have to be available at time of booking. Not available, then you are out of luck. Regardless of whatever elite status level you are. Now, with higher elite levels, you can waitlist but it has been reported that waitlist doesn't work very well.



OV does not have a higher SO cost.  OF (Ocean Front) has a higher SO cost.

The Hawaii properties are marketed as Ocean Front, Ocean View, Island View.  Ocean View and Island View have the same StarOption requirements.


----------



## DavidnRobin

controller1 said:


> OV does not have a higher SO cost.  OF (Ocean Front) has a higher SO cost.
> 
> The Hawaii properties are marketed as Ocean Front, Ocean View, Island View.  Ocean View and Island View have the same StarOption requirements.



For WKORVN - the MF/SO is greater for IV and OV than OF since the MFs are the same, but OV/IV has less SOs associated versus OF.

Same is true for WKORV but there are both Deluxe and Premium villa types.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## controller1

DavidnRobin said:


> For WKORVN - the MF/SO is greater for IV and OV than OF since the MFs are the same, but OV/IV has less SOs associated versus OF.
> 
> Same is true for WKORV but there are both Deluxe and Premium villa types.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



So semantics.  The cost/StarOption is greater while the cost in StarOptions is less.  As always, one can prove and disprove any argument with the same set of facts!


----------



## DavidnRobin

controller1 said:


> So semantics.  The cost/StarOption is greater while the cost in StarOptions is less.  As always, one can prove and disprove any argument with the same set of facts!



You wrote:
_“OV does not have a higher SO cost. OF (Ocean Front) has a higher SO cost_”

I was just trying to clarify what was being said as it wasn’t. The SO cost is less for OF than OV - not higher (when compared to the MF).


----------



## controller1

DavidnRobin said:


> You wrote:
> _“OV does not have a higher SO cost. OF (Ocean Front) has a higher SO cost_”
> 
> I was just trying to clarify what was being said as it wasn’t. The SO cost is less for OF than OV - not higher (when compared to the MF).



Understand. Got it.


----------



## DannyTS

how flexible is Westin Flex? can one book at 12 months for any number of nights, any check in day?


----------



## dioxide45

DannyTS said:


> how flexible is Westin Flex? can one book at 12 months for any number of nights, any check in day?


Yes


----------



## DannyTS

wouldn't that represent a major advantage? In this case Westin flex owners would be able to start booking a day or 2. before week owners just by booking a vacation starting Wednesday or Thursday.


----------



## VacationForever

DannyTS said:


> wouldn't that represent a major advantage? In this case Westin flex owners would be able to start booking a day or 2. before week owners just by booking a vacation starting Wednesday or Thursday.


Different inventory pool.


----------



## vacationtime1

I don't think any of the Sheraton Flex properties are (or will be) difficult to reserve with the exception of Steamboat (and I hope no one buys Sheraton Flex with the expectation of being able to reserve a ski week at Steamboat on a regular basis -- although I'm sure the sales staff pushes exactly that).


----------



## DannyTS

if the Westin flex pool is not large enough booking any number of days can make it very inefficient with terrible availability. I wonder how they manage that.


----------



## VacationForever

DannyTS said:


> if the Westin flex pool is not large enough booking any number of days can make it very inefficient with terrible availability. I wonder how they manage that.


Vistana acquires inventory through asking owners to trade in their timeshare weeks for points and collecting more $.  They kill 2 birds with one stone that way.  Until the Flex pools get large and diverse enough there will be availability issues.

Marriott does that currently with their point systems.  So far what I see on MVC point systems I have no complaints.


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> Vistana acquires inventory through asking owners to trade in their timeshare weeks for points and collecting more $.  They kill 2 birds with one stone that way.  Until the Flex pools get large and diverse enough there will be availability issues.
> 
> Marriott does that currently with their point systems.  So far what I see on MVC point systems I have no complaints.


Of course, Flex owners have the added option at eight months to also book with SOs. So even if they can't get it from the trust they may be able to still get it from the network. Of course, this won't work for those super peak weeks.


----------



## DannyTS

VacationForever said:


> Vistana acquires inventory through asking owners to trade in their timeshare weeks for points and collecting more $.  They kill 2 birds with one stone that way.  Until the Flex pools get large and diverse enough there will be availability issues.
> 
> Marriott does that currently with their point systems.  So far what I see on MVC point systems I have no complaints.


I think I read in the annual report that the main source was repossessions which also allows them to get new owners into the system.


----------



## hawaii gal

Anyone know if there are going to be any guidelines about volume of flex versus week owners at each resort? I ask because it seems obvious that as more and more flex are sold, that the 'pool' of week based reservation availability will shrink.


----------



## mig1

Just got back from an owner update at WMH.  We went in with the mindset that we were only there for the StarPoints which we are using to visit our son in college later in the year.  I was upfront about the fact that "we were only here for the points."

As you would expect, the bulk of the presentation was Westin Flex and how it was a much better option than our current ownership which is a Platinum week at WKORV.   Because we live in LA, we seldom use our ownership in Maui; mostly we find ourselves using it at WMH or WDW with an occasional KV trip.  Our salesperson told us that we would be better off "trading in" our Maui property in on the current "Flex" program because moving forward, ONLY "Flex" is being offered at WDW so if we wanted to continue to come to the desert availability would be severely restricted because all of the new owners would have access to make reservations at 12 months out.

When I raised the issue that capacity issues moving forward are speculative at best as this program is so new, that was met with a rather surly response.  Because "Flex" comes with a lot of "versatility" in that it has 12 month reservation window, short stay accommodations, more trade value with II (not an issue as we don't use II), as well as trading our week would allow an upgrade to 3*.

I was well prepared for this presentation as I studied this thread to get a sense of what the experts here seem to feel about this new "flex" program.  

We walked out declining this as well as the explorer package offered for 1895 which would have given us 80,000 SO's as well as another 3 nights at WDW, and the cost applied to a developer purchase.

After 15 years as an owner and a fairly good basic understanding of how to use our ownership to suit us best......is there really NO advantage to "flex?"  I wasn't excited about paying another $25,000 for the luxury when I know that I could likely find a mandatory property on the resale market for that price that would at least allow me to make reservations inside the VSE network.  Granted the move up to 3* has a bit of appeal, but the increase in annual MF's balances that out.  

But I have to say that everytime I attend one of these updates, the sales people make it sound so elegant and seamless with respect to how many different ways you can use your ownership.  However, in my reality, I have never found it as easy as they make it seem.  It's one thing to show me a screenshot of an EXPEDIA site that shows a one week reservation at a resort for 5 or 10K....but it's entirely different when I try to rent it for that much.  Plus, for all I know, they could be showing me screen shots of rack rates several years ago that have absolutely no relation to the market today.

All negativity aside.......is there NO reason, no advantage for me to consider FLEX?  They told me that I could buy FLEX and then just rent out my room over the Coachella Music Festival every year and pay my MF's and over time pay for the entire cost of the ownership itself.  While that MAY be true to a degree it just seems like a very expensive "leap of faith."

So, with all of that said......I put it to you experts who have a much deeper understanding of this than I do......is Flex simply NOT worth it on any level, or is this worthy of me taking a serious look at? 

Thanks for all of your insight!!


----------



## lizap

mig1 said:


> Just got back from an owner update at WMH.  We went in with the mindset that we were only there for the StarPoints which we are using to visit our son in college later in the year.  I was upfront about the fact that "we were only here for the points."
> 
> As you would expect, the bulk of the presentation was Westin Flex and how it was a much better option than our current ownership which is a Platinum week at WKORV.   Because we live in LA, we seldom use our ownership in Maui; mostly we find ourselves using it at WMH or WDW with an occasional KV trip.  Our salesperson told us that we would be better off "trading in" our Maui property in on the current "Flex" program because moving forward, ONLY "Flex" is being offered at WDW so if we wanted to continue to come to the desert availability would be severely restricted because all of the new owners would have access to make reservations at 12 months out.
> 
> When I raised the issue that capacity issues moving forward are speculative at best as this program is so new, that was met with a rather surly response.  Because "Flex" comes with a lot of "versatility" in that it has 12 month reservation window, short stay accommodations, more trade value with II (not an issue as we don't use II), as well as trading our week would allow an upgrade to 3*.
> 
> I was well prepared for this presentation as I studied this thread to get a sense of what the experts here seem to feel about this new "flex" program.
> 
> We walked out declining this as well as the explorer package offered for 1895 which would have given us 80,000 SO's as well as another 3 nights at WDW, and the cost applied to a developer purchase.
> 
> After 15 years as an owner and a fairly good basic understanding of how to use our ownership to suit us best......is there really NO advantage to "flex?"  I wasn't excited about paying another $25,000 for the luxury when I know that I could likely find a mandatory property on the resale market for that price that would at least allow me to make reservations inside the VSE network.  Granted the move up to 3* has a bit of appeal, but the increase in annual MF's balances that out.
> 
> But I have to say that everytime I attend one of these updates, the sales people make it sound so elegant and seamless with respect to how many different ways you can use your ownership.  However, in my reality, I have never found it as easy as they make it seem.  It's one thing to show me a screenshot of an EXPEDIA site that shows a one week reservation at a resort for 5 or 10K....but it's entirely different when I try to rent it for that much.  Plus, for all I know, they could be showing me screen shots of rack rates several years ago that have absolutely no relation to the market today.
> 
> All negativity aside.......is there NO reason, no advantage for me to consider FLEX?  They told me that I could buy FLEX and then just rent out my room over the Coachella Music Festival every year and pay my MF's and over time pay for the entire cost of the ownership itself.  While that MAY be true to a degree it just seems like a very expensive "leap of faith."
> 
> So, with all of that said......I put it to you experts who have a much deeper understanding of this than I do......is Flex simply NOT worth it on any level, or is this worthy of me taking a serious look at?
> 
> Thanks for all of your insight!!



Remember, these guys are just trying to make a living.  There's no telling what Marriott will do with FLEX.


----------



## Anne&Jim

mig1 said:


> Just got back from an owner update at WMH.  We went in with the mindset that we were only there for the StarPoints which we are using to visit our son in college later in the year.  I was upfront about the fact that "we were only here for the points."
> 
> As you would expect, the bulk of the presentation was Westin Flex and how it was a much better option than our current ownership which is a Platinum week at WKORV.   Because we live in LA, we seldom use our ownership in Maui; mostly we find ourselves using it at WMH or WDW with an occasional KV trip.  Our salesperson told us that we would be better off "trading in" our Maui property in on the current "Flex" program because moving forward, ONLY "Flex" is being offered at WDW so if we wanted to continue to come to the desert availability would be severely restricted because all of the new owners would have access to make reservations at 12 months out.
> 
> When I raised the issue that capacity issues moving forward are speculative at best as this program is so new, that was met with a rather surly response.  Because "Flex" comes with a lot of "versatility" in that it has 12 month reservation window, short stay accommodations, more trade value with II (not an issue as we don't use II), as well as trading our week would allow an upgrade to 3*.
> 
> I was well prepared for this presentation as I studied this thread to get a sense of what the experts here seem to feel about this new "flex" program.
> 
> We walked out declining this as well as the explorer package offered for 1895 which would have given us 80,000 SO's as well as another 3 nights at WDW, and the cost applied to a developer purchase.
> 
> After 15 years as an owner and a fairly good basic understanding of how to use our ownership to suit us best......is there really NO advantage to "flex?"  I wasn't excited about paying another $25,000 for the luxury when I know that I could likely find a mandatory property on the resale market for that price that would at least allow me to make reservations inside the VSE network.  Granted the move up to 3* has a bit of appeal, but the increase in annual MF's balances that out.
> 
> But I have to say that everytime I attend one of these updates, the sales people make it sound so elegant and seamless with respect to how many different ways you can use your ownership.  However, in my reality, I have never found it as easy as they make it seem.  It's one thing to show me a screenshot of an EXPEDIA site that shows a one week reservation at a resort for 5 or 10K....but it's entirely different when I try to rent it for that much.  Plus, for all I know, they could be showing me screen shots of rack rates several years ago that have absolutely no relation to the market today.
> 
> All negativity aside.......is there NO reason, no advantage for me to consider FLEX?  They told me that I could buy FLEX and then just rent out my room over the Coachella Music Festival every year and pay my MF's and over time pay for the entire cost of the ownership itself.  While that MAY be true to a degree it just seems like a very expensive "leap of faith."
> 
> So, with all of that said......I put it to you experts who have a much deeper understanding of this than I do......is Flex simply NOT worth it on any level, or is this worthy of me taking a serious look at?
> 
> Thanks for all of your insight!!



Honestly, no one knows what the flex availability will be, now or later, but we all know the desert properties are in the flex program because of the difficulty in keeping owners of the low season weeks.  Assuming it’s a mix of seasons, and that most people will prefer the higher seasons, SOMEONE in flex will be making do with low season (hot summer).

If you mainly use the desert properties, you might want to consider selling your Hawaii week (on TUG or Redweek) and buying a RESALE desert property for the lower MFs.  Whether or not that makes any sense for you depends on how many future trips you think you will make and when the MF difference catches up with resale price you pay minus the resale price you get from your Hawaii week (you will probably get more for your Hawaii week than you spend for your desert week, making the MF savings immediate.)

Anyone who owns the season can try to make a reservation to rent Coachella week — that is true with or without flex.  Also, why would you make a purchase just to try to rent it?  Purchase to use, and rent only if you cannot use it.

I would not consider flex because of the additional upfront cost, but mostly because you are not guaranteed a season — IMNSHO.  If you wanted a low season week, you could get one for free on TUG — why pay flex prices?  As for 3* — you would have to decide if the cost to get there is worth the benefit.  For people who use the hotels a lot, it may be worth it.  But if all you want is the best price for your guaranteed season in the desert, buy that (resale) and be happy!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## cubigbird

In my opinion the Westin Flex “premium” is not worth the non-guarantees.  As previously highlighted, you aren’t guaranteed a week in any season.  Everything is subject to availability.  If I own a TS, I better have a guarantee, as I paid for it.  Not the case here.

Sales will always put lipstick on whatever “inventory” they are selling.  I remember when sales proclaimed WSJ-CV was the greatest thing since sliced bread, then it became something else.  Sales will always tell you that whatever they are selling is superior to whatever you own.

Back to the old addage of owning where you want to go, I can’t see a benefit of Flex given the cost and it isn’t guaranteed to show availability where you want to go. It seems to be nothing more than a repackage of old inventory with lipstick on it.  Without the introduction of a large amount of new inventory, we may still see these churns in order fuel the sales department.


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## DannyTS

Anne&Jim said:


> Anyone who owns the season can try to make a reservation to rent Coachella week — that is true with or without flex.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I am starting to think that the flex programs may have  a big advantage in booking the best weeks since they do not need to wait until 12 months before the Fr or the Sa of the week, they can make a reservation that starts Th, We or even Tu.
Because of the floating Vistana system, a trust that owns 20% of the inventory can have an unfair advantage in getting the best deals.


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## Anne&Jim

DannyTS said:


> I am starting to think that the flex programs may have  a big advantage in booking the best weeks since they do not need to wait until 12 months before the Fr or the Sa of the week, they can make a reservation that starts Th, We or even Tu.
> Because of the floating Vistana system, a trust that owns 20% of the inventory can have an unfair advantage in getting the best deals.



Hmmm, that’s an interesting thought.  Can you please explain how a Flex owner might be able to book a Coachella weekend earlier than a weeks owner?  I’m not understanding that.  Also, please explain your reasoning for how “a trust that owns 20% of the inventory can have an unfair advantage in getting the best deals”?  Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DannyTS

Anne&Jim said:


> Hmmm, that’s an interesting thought.  Can you please explain how a Flex owner might be able to book a Coachella weekend earlier than a weeks owner?  I’m not understanding that.  Also, please explain your reasoning for how “a trust that owns 20% of the inventory can have an unfair advantage in getting the best deals”?  Thanks!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Say you have a resort with 10 condos and the year is 10 weeks long (to simplify it). So, you have a total of 100 weeks (or owners if they own just one). Say Flex owns 20% of the inventory (20 weeks) while the week owners have 80 weeks.

Say the best week of the year is WEEK #3 and the check in is only Friday (for regular week owners)

EXACTLY  10 weeks before the Friday of WEEK #3 (the year has 10 weeks)  regular week owners will try to make a reservation for that week, right?

Except that the day before, on Thursday, 10 Flex owners booked (Thu-Thu)  ALL the rooms of WEEK #3 (remember the resort only has 10 condos) leaving  NONE for the regular week owners. So a group  that owns only 20% of the inventory can book ALL condos of the best week of the year, #3.

Am I wrong here? I do not own any Flex by the way.


----------



## Anne&Jim

DannyTS said:


> Say you have a resort with 10 condos and the year is 10 weeks long (to simplify it). So, you have a total of 100 weeks (or owners if they own just one). Say Flex owns 20% of the inventory (20 weeks) while the week owners have 80 weeks.
> 
> Say the best week of the year is WEEK #3 and all the check in is only Friday (for regular week owners)
> 
> EXACTLY  10 weeks before the Friday of WEEK #3 (the year has 10 weeks)  regular week owners will try to make a reservation for that week, right?
> 
> Except that the day before, on Thursday, 10 Flex owners booked (Thu-Thu)  ALL the rooms of WEEK #3 (remember the resort only has 10 condos) leaving  NONE for the regular week owners. So a group  that owns only 20% of the inventory can book ALL condos of the best week of the year, #3.
> 
> Am I wrong here? I do not own any Flex by the way.



Are weeks owners limited to only Friday, Saturday or Sunday check-in dates?  I could have sworn I’ve seen the ability to have Wednesday or Thursday when I’ve been reserving over 8 months out...am I remembering that incorrectly?  What I think Flex owners get at 12 months out is the ability to make shorter than 7 night reservations, which could help people trying to rent Coachella, since it’s on two consecutive weekends, if I recall correctly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DannyTS

Anne&Jim said:


> Are weeks owners limited to only Friday, Saturday or Sunday check-in dates?  I could have sworn I’ve seen the ability to have Wednesday or Thursday when I’ve been reserving over 8 months out...am I remembering that incorrectly?  What I think Flex owners get at 12 months out is the ability to make shorter than 7 night reservations, which could help people trying to rent Coachella, since it’s on two consecutive weekends, if I recall correctly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, week owners can only reserve (in my example) Friday. The Flex owners can reserve 1 year before (like the week owners) but they can start a day or 2 before because they are not bound by the end of the week check in. Do not mix Flex home reservations (1 year in advance) with Staroptions reservation (8 months)


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## dioxide45

I had read in this thread that Coachella wasn't really a great week for renting. So it seems that those claims by a sales rep may be overblown. It seems that the crowd; the Instagram and millennial generation, aren't really considering timeshare for their rental needs?


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## hawaii gal

DannyTS said:


> Yes, week owners can only reserve (in my example) Friday. The Flex owners can reserve 1 year before (like the week owners) but they can start a day or 2 before because they are not bound by the end of the week check in. Do not mix Flex home reservations (1 year in advance) with Staroptions reservation (8 months)


and that is our very real concern....that as more people convert or purchase FLEX that the 'pool' of designated availability for deeded owners will shrink


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## vacationtime1

hawaii gal said:


> and that is our very real concern....that as more people convert or purchase FLEX that the 'pool' of designated availability for deeded owners will shrink



It is true that the "pool" of units for deeded owners will shrink over time, but it is also true that the number of weeks owned by deed (rather than by Flex) will also shrink over time -- and in exactly the same proportion.  The number of weeks available for each deeded week always remains the same:  1:1.


----------



## duke

dioxide45 said:


> I had read in this thread that Coachella wasn't really a great week for renting. So it seems that those claims by a sales rep may be overblown. It seems that the crowd; the Instagram and millennial generation, aren't really considering timeshare for their rental needs?


Dioxide is Correct.  Coachella rentals don't happen.  People who go to Coachella don't have the cash to rent.  They are cheap and unreliable.  Reservations for that week are not difficult to make as well.  The Classic Rock bands are long gone and with them went people who have a job and can pay their bills without living with their parents.


----------



## bigbillf

I went back and forth with Vistana on Sheraton Flex.  How flex hurts deeded Owners is that all Flex owners step in as Home Resort Reservation owners at any Flex Resort as long as they have enough options to cover the reservation.  So at 12 months out all Flex owners can make a reservation, not restricted to 7 days or Fri/Sat/Sun check in, at any of the Flex resorts.  As for deeded owners, only those owners at the Resort that own the same type villa in the same season can make a Home Resort Reservation and they are restricted to 7 days with Fri/Sat/Sun check in.  So as long as there are unallocated units at a particular resort in the Flex trust, then they can make a reservation in the 12 - 9 month period.  I am so against flex programs as Vistana is profiting by depleting the available inventory that is available to deeded owners and diluting deeded Owners Home Reservation rights, a right by deed, without compensating deeded Owners.


----------



## VacationForever

bigbillf said:


> I went back and forth with Vistana on Sheraton Flex.  How flex hurts deeded Owners is that all Flex owners step in as Home Resort Reservation owners at any Flex Resort as long as they have enough options to cover the reservation.  So at 12 months out all Flex owners can make a reservation, not restricted to 7 days or Fri/Sat/Sun check in, at any of the Flex resorts.  As for deeded owners, only those owners at the Resort that own the same type villa in the same season can make a Home Resort Reservation and they are restricted to 7 days with Fri/Sat/Sun check in.  So as long as there are unallocated units at a particular resort in the Flex trust, then they can make a reservation in the 12 - 9 month period.  I am so against flex programs as Vistana is profiting by depleting the available inventory that is available to deeded owners and diluting deeded Owners Home Reservation rights, a right by deed, without compensating deeded Owners.


They are all in separate inventory buckets.


----------



## vacationtime1

bigbillf said:


> I went back and forth with Vistana on Sheraton Flex.  How flex hurts deeded Owners is that all Flex owners step in as Home Resort Reservation owners at any Flex Resort as long as they have enough options to cover the reservation.  So at 12 months out all Flex owners can make a reservation, not restricted to 7 days or Fri/Sat/Sun check in, at any of the Flex resorts.  As for deeded owners, only those owners at the Resort that own the same type villa in the same season can make a Home Resort Reservation and they are restricted to 7 days with Fri/Sat/Sun check in.  So as long as there are unallocated units at a particular resort in the Flex trust, then they can make a reservation in the 12 - 9 month period.  I am so against flex programs as Vistana is profiting by depleting the available inventory that is available to deeded owners and diluting deeded Owners Home Reservation rights, a right by deed, without compensating deeded Owners.



Nothing new here.  Weeks owners may make reservations from the weeks "pool" and Flex owners may make reservations from the Flex "pool".  *Flex owners may not reserve from the weeks pool because the Flex trust does not own those units.  *Anything the sales staff said to the contrary is simply wrong.


----------



## DannyTS

vacationtime1 said:


> Nothing new here.  Weeks owners may make reservations from the weeks "pool" and Flex owners may make reservations from the Flex "pool".  *Flex owners may not reserve from the weeks pool because the Flex trust does not own those units.  *Anything the sales staff said to the contrary is simply wrong.


I know some people are not happy with what may be baseless speculation. On the flip side, why would people defend Vistana without any inside information about how the reservation system works? Not in theory, but testing in real time the actual reservations from all groups of owners. Programming the beast can be rather complicated if not done properly. Who the heck knows what the reality is?


----------



## VacationForever

DannyTS said:


> I know some people are not happy with what may be baseless speculation. On the flip side, why would people defend Vistana without any inside information about how the reservation system works? Not in theory, but testing in real time the actual reservations from all groups of owners. Programming the beast can be rather complicated if not done properly. Who the heck knows what the reality is?


Because we long time owners have found no evidence to support the paranoia that Vistana is playing dirty with the inventories.  You are just spinning with your wheels causing unnecessary angst.  If you don't trust Vistana then you should not have bought it.


----------



## DannyTS

VacationForever said:


> Because we long time owners have found no evidence to support the paranoia that Vistana is playing dirty with the inventories.  You are just spinning with your wheels causing unnecessary angst.  If you don't trust Vistana then you should not have bought it.



Let me just say that i have nothing but respect for veteran TUGgers as well as for Vistana so far.

My questions arise solely from other TUGgers reporting that in the last couple of years they  could not book for example weeks 51 or 52 at Lagunamar. They said they were doing the same as before and midnight reservation did not work for them at all. I also read comments (by veteran owners and TUGgers like yourself) saying that there was plenty of empirical evidence that there are certain problems. 

If this is creating unnecessary angst, Vistana should clarify it. Asking questions keeps them honest, sorry i do not agree that we should always just assume that everything is ok.


----------



## VacationForever

DannyTS said:


> Let me just say that i have nothing but respect for veteran TUGgers as well as for Vistana so far.
> 
> My questions arise solely from other TUGgers reporting that in the last couple of years could not book for example weeks 51 or 52 at Lagunamar. They said they were doing the same as before and midnight reservation did not work for them at all. If this is creating unnecessary angst, Vistana should clarify it. Asking questions keeps them honest, sorry i do not agree that we should always just assume that everything is ok.


Westin Lagunamar's popularity has increased significantly through the past few years.  I was probably one of the first ones on TUG that said it was and still is my favorite Starwood (Vistana) resort.  Many anti-Mexico TUGgers challenged my posts back then.  We used to be able to trade into WLR in II through most parts of the year and they were regularly deposited into II.  Increasing difficulty in booking Weeks 51 and 52 is directly related to the increasing popularity of WLR.  I remember asking one of the moderators here who runs a rental on the side when I indicated that I wanted to buy a fixed W52 at WLR and she said Mexico properties carried low rental.  If you look at the rental market now, WLR commands good rental $.  The desirability has changed in WLR and that is a fact.


----------



## canesfan

DannyTS said:


> Let me just say that i have nothing but respect for veteran TUGgers as well as for Vistana so far.
> 
> My questions arise solely from other TUGgers reporting that in the last couple of years they  could not book for example weeks 51 or 52 at Lagunamar. They said they were doing the same as before and midnight reservation did not work for them at all. I also read comments (by veteran owners and TUGgers like yourself) saying that there was plenty of empirical evidence that there are certain problems.
> 
> If this is creating unnecessary angst, Vistana should clarify it. Asking questions keeps them honest, sorry i do not agree that we should always just assume that everything is ok.



What you are reporting about week 51 & 52 at WLR has absolutely nothing to do with Flex. The Mexico Flex product hasn’t been around for the “last couple of years” to be affecting it. This year would be the first year that reservations for 51 & 52 might be impacted. The fact of the matter is Lagunamar has become more popular and the economy is doing better with people traveling. That’s why reservations at more popular times are harder to get, but not impossible. Also remember TUGers are a small sample of owners.


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## DannyTS

VacationForever said:


> Westin Lagunamar's popularity has increased significantly through the past few years.  I was probably one of the first ones on TUG that said it was and still is my favorite Starwood (Vistana) resort.  Many anti-Mexico TUGgers challenged my posts back then.  We used to be able to trade into WLR in II through most parts of the year and they were regularly deposited into II.  Increasing difficulty in booking Weeks 51 and 52 is directly related to the increasing popularity of WLR.  I remember asking one of the moderators here who runs a rental on the side when I indicated that I wanted to buy a fixed W52 at WLR and she said Mexico properties carried low rental.  If you look at the rental market now, WLR commands good rental $.  The desirability has changed in WLR and that is a fact.


We love it, we just bought 2 platinum weeks @WLR (and a Bella). I hope you are right. Personally I am not even sure i really want to go 51-52 and fight with the chair hoggers (is this the official expression now lol?). At the same time people want to feel like they are treated fairly.


----------



## VacationForever

DannyTS said:


> We love it, we just bought 2 platinum weeks @WLR (and a Bella). I hope you are right. Personally I am not even sure i really want to go 51-52 and fight with the chair hoggers (is this the official expression now lol?). At the same time people want to feel like they are treated fairly.


I suspect many of the people who book 51-52 to rent them out because they fetch great rental price.  Competition for the same weeks is what is causing the difficulty in booking them.

Like you, we just absolutely love the color of the water, incredible infinity pools, and the hospitality of the locals.  We never had bad service at Oceano where we ate most of our breakfast or restaurants around the resort, we always enjoyed our stays.


----------



## DannyTS

VacationForever said:


> I suspect many of the people who book 51-52 to rent them out because they fetch great rental price.  Competition for the same weeks is what is causing the difficulty in booking them.
> 
> Like you, we just absolutely love the color of the water, incredible infinity pools, and the hospitality of the locals.  We never had bad service at Oceano where we ate most of our breakfast or restaurants around the resort, we always enjoyed our stays.



I would add: a great location (arguably the best in Cancun for a non all inclusive) across the La isla mall and near so many restaurants, good wifi throuout the resort (even on the beach on spots relatively far from the hotel), a great layout (not too cramped, not too spread out), most condos have great OV, relatively inexpensive peso, I can go on and on.


----------



## blondietink

Count us in as happy Lagunamar owners, but we would never want to go there weeks 51=52 or spring break times.  We just aren't into those kinds of crowds anywhere.  I suspect, and could be wrong, that as the Cancun resort conversion comes online, some of the difficulty booking Lagunamar might subside.  However, the location of the Cancun Resort is not in their favor as it is far away from everything where Lagunamar is in the middle of everything . Again, just my opinion.  I would like to try the ocean/cove swimming at the Cancun resort, though, so might book a few days there on our next visit unless there is some reciprocal benefits between the resorts.


----------



## canesfan

Personally I think booking any of our properties for weeks 51 & 52 is a gamble. They are high demand and at the end of the year. You risk passing up reserving other weeks to book the end of the year to possibly not get the prime week. One year (long ago) I tried to do it for WSJ. Never again! We like to do WSJ in the winter months and I let all those months go by where I could’ve reserved to wait for that holiday week reservation that I didn’t get. It had absolutely nothing to do with Flex as it wasn’t created then.


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## iqmavin

DeniseM said:


> I'm not surprised - since they made Nanea a Flex resort, it was only a matter of time before they created a new group.
> 
> This is a way for VSE to repackage Westin Mission Hills which is struggling as a voluntary resort with high maintenance fees.
> 
> During the 12-8 month owner's priority period, Flex owners will only be able to exchange for reservations _in the flex pool_ - not the deeded weeks inventory that already belongs to owners.
> 
> From the start, this will really impact Nanea, because all Nanea reservations will be available to everyone in this group during the owner's reservation period.  But at least to begin with, it shouldn't impact the other 3 Hawaii resorts as much.  But eventually, as more and more deeds are sucked into the Flex pool inventory, there will be less and less Staroption availability.
> 
> (If I was a Nanea owner, I would be be po'd about this!)
> 
> It will probably mean that after Jan. 4th, you will only be able to buy FlexOptions from the developer at the 6 resorts in this group, but you can still buy deeded weeks on the resale market.  However, it may mean that VSE will actively pursue more resales, or exercise ROFR more often, to acquire inventory for the Flex Pool.
> 
> As Robert said, this is a bad deal for owners/buyers, and a good deal for VSE.


----------



## iqmavin

Aloha

your advice has been helpful in the past.  Thought I’d impose on you again.

I just sat through an update at desert willows. We own off peak 56000 options.  We also own St Johns that we purchased after market at a very low price for 196900.  Today’s offer is for 15k new money we up our options at desert willow to 68000 flex and they grand father or WSJ into network. They also will give us 36000 options.  Like the idea of getting St John into network.  First time in awhile we’ve actually considered spending new money.

‘also like the idea of being able to buy hotel points at a discounted rate 330000 for 2275.  Sitting on the fence on this.  Insights?


----------



## taterhed

mig1 said:


> Just got back from an owner update at WMH.  ............
> Thanks for all of your insight!!



Don't forget:  Marriotts in the area (if you also like the desert Marriotts) are also very inexpensive, trade with II preference, can be locked-off and 2 for 1 on exchange, etc.....Yeah, the MF's are not great, but for what they can trade to...it's a bargain on lock-off and retrade.  IMHO.

Resale legacy Marriott weeks are great traders that will get you great trades when others won't (get the Marriotts on preference).

Buying cheap for SO's (bella) I understand.  Buying for the desert (WDW) because that's the only place you want to be....I get it.
Flex?

Not so much.


----------



## jabberwocky

Not really sure how a flex discussion ended up talking about MVC. 

I just talked my BIL out of doing exactly this. He was going to buy a fixed Marriott desert week. It would have had great trading power and he could have easily locked off for two weeks exchange. 

He usually likes to go to the CA desert in summer so would have been trading for those. When I showed him the II getaway rates for a 2BR in summer he  decided not to go ahead.  After exchange fees + MF he is better off by around $800-1000 to go the getaway route. 



taterhed said:


> Don't forget:  Marriotts in the area (if you also like the desert Marriotts) are also very inexpensive, trade with II preference, can be locked-off and 2 for 1 on exchange, etc.....Yeah, the MF's are not great, but for what they can trade to...it's a bargain on lock-off and retrade.  IMHO.
> 
> Resale legacy Marriott weeks are great traders that will get you great trades when others won't (get the Marriotts on preference).
> 
> Buying cheap for SO's (bella) I understand.  Buying for the desert (WDW) because that's the only place you want to be....I get it.
> Flex?
> 
> Not so much.


----------



## jabberwocky

What phase do you own at WSJ?  

Assuming it isn’t mandatory I don’t really see much value in bringing it into VSN as it has a high MF/SO ratio so not really great for trading unless you are wanting Maui. 

I’m assuming you have a 2BR WDW worth 56.3k options which is a gold (low season) week. As such it will have a high MF/SO ratio of over $0.03/SO. 

Flex would be around $0.02/Option and would give you access to Hawaii as well. So over time this could make sense depending on how you will use it (additional flexibility) and how much future runway you have for vacations. 

a couple of suggestions:

- you could lower your purchase price slightly by going to 67,100 options - 68,000 is an awkward number and doesn’t really align with most weeks in the calendar so you might have a few options wasted each year. 

- if you are paying $15k this would allow you to retro in another voluntary property in addition to your WSJ. You could take a look at picking up a cheap MF/SO property that would also be a good trader. I don’t know if you have future plans for increasing your SO but it might be something to consider. 



iqmavin said:


> Aloha
> 
> your advice has been helpful in the past.  Thought I’d impose on you again.
> 
> I just sat through an update at desert willows. We own off peak 56000 options.  We also own St Johns that we purchased after market at a very low price for 196900.  Today’s offer is for 15k new money we up our options at desert willow to 68000 flex and they grand father or WSJ into network. They also will give us 36000 options.  Like the idea of getting St John into network.  First time in awhile we’ve actually considered spending new money.
> 
> ‘also like the idea of being able to buy hotel points at a discounted rate 330000 for 2275.  Sitting on the fence on this.  Insights?


----------



## taterhed

mig1 said:


> Just got back from an owner update at WMH.  We went in with the mindset that we were only there for the StarPoints which we are using to visit our son in college later in the year.  I was upfront about the fact that "we were only here for the points."
> 
> As you would expect, the bulk of the presentation was Westin Flex and how it was a much better option than our current ownership which is a Platinum week at WKORV.   _*Because we live in LA, we seldom use our ownership in Maui; mostly we find ourselves using it at WMH or WDW with an occasional KV trip. *_ Our salesperson told us that we would be better off "trading in" our Maui property in on the current "Flex" program because moving forward, ONLY "Flex" is being offered at WDW so if we wanted to continue to come to the desert availability would be severely restricted because all of the new owners would have access to make reservations at 12 months out.
> 
> When I raised the issue that capacity issues moving forward are speculative at best as this program is so new, that was met with a rather surly response.  Because "Flex" comes with a lot of "versatility" in that it has 12 month reservation window, short stay accommodations, more trade value with II (not an issue as we don't use II), as well as trading our week would allow an upgrade to 3*.
> 
> I was well prepared for this presentation as I studied this thread to get a sense of what the experts here seem to feel about this new "flex" program.
> 
> We walked out declining this as well as the explorer package offered for 1895 which would have given us 80,000 SO's as well as another 3 nights at WDW, and the cost applied to a developer purchase.
> 
> After 15 years as an owner and a fairly good basic understanding of how to use our ownership to suit us best......is there really NO advantage to "flex?"  I wasn't excited about paying another $25,000 for the luxury when I know that _*I could likely find a mandatory property on the resale market for that price that would at least allow me to make reservations inside the VSE network.*_  Granted the move up to 3* has a bit of appeal, but the increase in annual MF's balances that out.
> 
> But I have to say that every time I attend one of these updates, the sales people make it sound so elegant and seamless with respect to how many different ways you can use your ownership.  However, in my reality, I have never found it as easy as they make it seem.  It's one thing to show me a screenshot of an EXPEDIA site that shows a one week reservation at a resort for 5 or 10K....but it's entirely different when I try to rent it for that much.  Plus, for all I know, they could be showing me screen shots of rack rates several years ago that have absolutely no relation to the market today.
> 
> All negativity aside.......is there NO reason, no advantage for me to consider FLEX?  They told me that I could buy FLEX and then just rent out my room over the Coachella Music Festival every year and pay my MF's and over time pay for the entire cost of the ownership itself.  While that MAY be true to a degree it just seems like a very expensive "leap of faith."
> 
> So, with all of that said......I put it to you experts who have a much deeper understanding of this than I do......is Flex simply NOT worth it on any level, or is this worthy of me taking a serious look at?
> 
> Thanks for all of your insight!!





jabberwocky said:


> _*Not really sure how a flex discussion ended up talking about MVC. *_
> 
> I just talked my BIL out of doing exactly this. He was going to buy a fixed Marriott desert week. It would have had great trading power and he could have easily locked off for two weeks exchange.
> 
> He usually likes to go to the CA desert in summer so would have been trading for those. When I showed him the II getaway rates for a 2BR in summer he  decided not to go ahead.  After exchange fees + MF he is better off by around $800-1000 to go the getaway route.



@jabberwocky 
@mig1


The OP discussed buying a mandatory Westin to access the resorts they like in those areas.
I was suggesting that a Marriott purchase might provide the same ability to use/trade within the MVC legacy network--just as an alternative to a Westin Mandatory; with a much larger network.
Both Mandatory SO trading and Marriott preference Interval trading would be good options for the California/Arizona/Hawaii areas.

Both are much better than FLEX. IMO

I'm quite sure that ANYBODY can trade just about anything into the dessert 'hell weeks.'  I'm sure the Getaways are scary cheap.  If that's your bag....go for it on Getaway heaven.

I'm a Marriott/Westin owner.  Great combo for the 3*++ timeshares.


----------



## iqmavin

jabberwocky said:


> What phase do you own at WSJ?
> 
> Assuming it isn’t mandatory I don’t really see much value in bringing it into VSN as it has a high MF/SO ratio so not really great for trading unless you are wanting Maui.
> 
> I’m assuming you have a 2BR WDW worth 56.3k options which is a gold (low season) week. As such it will have a high MF/SO ratio of over $0.03/SO.
> 
> Flex would be around $0.02/Option and would give you access to Hawaii as well. So over time this could make sense depending on how you will use it (additional flexibility) and how much future runway you have for vacations.
> 
> a couple of suggestions:
> 
> - you could lower your purchase price slightly by going to 67,100 options - 68,000 is an awkward number and doesn’t really align with most weeks in the calendar so you might have a few options wasted each year.
> 
> - if you are paying $15k this would allow you to retro in another voluntary property in addition to your WSJ. You could take a look at picking up a cheap MF/SO property that would also be a good trader. I don’t know if you have future plans for increasing your SO but it might be something to consider.


I appreciate your insights. The WSJ is a mandatory property at 196900 SO that convert to 318000 BP.


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## DavidnRobin

VSE Sales is no longer taking back WSJ to convert to Westin Flex.  They were in Sept.
They are still taking back WKORV/N, WKV, and WPORV (and others?), but not WSJ.
The squeeze is on folks. Why take them back when they will be getting them back in foreclosures?


----------



## dioxide45

DavidnRobin said:


> VSE Sales is no longer taking back WSJ to convert to Westin Flex.  They were in Sept.
> They are still taking back WKORV/N, WKV, and WPORV (and others?), but not WSJ.
> The squeeze is on folks. Why take them back when they will be getting them back in foreclosures?


Is WSJ even in Westin Flex yet? I wasn't aware that they had conveyed any USVI weeks to the Flex trust. It would also be more expensive to take weeks back via foreclosure than it would through deedback, so that doesn't make any sense.


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## DavidnRobin

dioxide45 said:


> Is WSJ even in Westin Flex yet? I wasn't aware that they had conveyed any USVI weeks to the Flex trust. It would also be more expensive to take weeks back via foreclosure than it would through deedback, so that doesn't make any sense.



In 2 separate Owners Updates they offered to take back any of our VSE VOIs (actually one would  not take back our WKORV OFD) including WSJ-VGV (for ~$14K per week), with new money, and convert to Westin Flex.  I was curious what their current offer was (research), and was informed that they now would take back any except WSJ-VGV.

I never said it was a good deal or idea, just looking at my options (using, renting, selling, conversion...).  I found it interesting that WSJ-VGV was now off the table, but our WKORV OFD (that is also not in Flex) could be converted to Westin Flex.  They were willing to take back our WKORV-OFD for $65K at one time, but would need to bring in $20K (iirc).

I believe they are not taking WSJ deedbacks either based on Brian’s thread.


----------



## dioxide45

DavidnRobin said:


> In 2 separate Owners Updates they offered to take back any of our VSE VOIs (actually one would  not take back our WKORV OFD) including WSJ-VGV (for ~$14K per week), with new money, and convert to Westin Flex.  I was curious what their current offer was (research), and was informed that they now would take back any except WSJ-VGV.
> 
> I never said it was a good deal or idea, just looking at my options (using, renting, selling, conversion...).  I found it interesting that WSJ-VGV was now off the table, but our WKORV OFD (that is also not in Flex) could be converted to Westin Flex.  They were willing to take back our WKORV-OFD for $65K at one time, but would need to bring in $20K (iirc).
> 
> I believe they are not taking WSJ deedbacks either based on Brian’s thread.


From what I understand, they aren't really doing any trade ins anymore. Based on our last presentation at SVV, they will only retro resale weeks. For Sheraton Flex, $10K new money to retro the first week and then $5K for every week thereafter. Is it that they won't retro WSJ weeks or that they won't take them as a full trade in?


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## DavidnRobin

dioxide45 said:


> From what I understand, they aren't really doing any trade ins anymore. Based on our last presentation at SVV, they will only retro resale weeks. For Sheraton Flex, $10K new money to retro the first week and then $5K for every week thereafter. Is it that they won't retro WSJ weeks or that they won't take them as a full trade in?



Won’t take them as a trade in.
It was offered before (75% of purchase price) toward Westin Flex.


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## johnnymavrik

Stupid (me) question. We bought 67,100 options at Nanea 2 years ago while at the Westin in Princeville (don't ask, we thought we were getting a suite for a week but they ended up not building any suites at Nanea). So now we are stuck with 5 nights only at Nanea 12 months out or a week at most 8 months out.

At the owners update this past week, they tried to upsell us into more days and we passed and took the 30k in points and ran. When we called the Interval number (about what to do with our remaining options this year - another issue is we didn't know about the July 1 deadline to bank the options) they said they can move us into the Flex program and sell us an additional 28,600 options + 100k bonvoy points for about $12k. This would give us 8 nights in a 1br that we can reserve 12 months out at Nanea and other properties.

So what am I missing? I don't get the conversion from Nanea only to the Flex program. Am i missing the huge downside?


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## CalGalTraveler

Another consideration is a black swan event if severe market downturn or personal health or financial distress: The Calif Desert deeded properties (MVC and SVN) are protected legally if something catastrophic happened and you are forced to walk and give up the timeshare deed. You may take a hit to credit but if this happens this will not be a major concern. Flex being a points trust with property deeds in multiple states may not provide such protection (it hasn't been tested legally) and they could go after your other assets if you live in the U.S.

Some people value sleep at night.

Look at the Buying Thread Stickies under legal plans by state. I am considering only deeds for free / low priced properties in certain states that offer anti-deficiency legal protection against creditors for TS in case I cannot sell or give it away.  With that said, I am less concerned by high value properties in non-anti-deficiency protection states such as WKORV/N Hawaii and NYC and desirable high point/low MF generators those will hold some value or will be desirable give-aways.


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## jabberwocky

Welcome to TUG @johnnymavrik! 

Sorry to hear the experience with Nanea hasn't worked out and don't feel stupid - most of us here bought developer at the beginning and we've all overpaid for something at some point.  The key is to now set yourself up to get the most out of what you have.  Take your time and learn exactly what the best option for your usage case is.  There is usually no need to rush a new purchase.

This is one instance where I think a Flex package would definitely be a better option for you if you are wanting at least one week.  How much did you pay for your Nanea?  I would not just buy another small package to add onto Nanea - instead I would want them to take back the Nanea package and replace it with a new Flex package (is this what they meant by move you into the Flex program?).  What you have now is some very expensive SO's.

IMO Westin Flex is better than Nanea.  You'll get 8-12 month booking priority at 8 of the Westin resorts (including Nanea and the other three Hawaii properties).  At 8 months the Home Options become StarOptions to trade into anywhere else in the VSN system.

I'd recommend an 81k Flex package as this would get you what you want.  I'm not sure about going to a 95.7 package because there are no 1BR Oceanfronts in Flex (actually no Oceanfront).  The 95.7 package will only be useful if you want extra days or a 1BR summer week at Westin Riverfront in CO.  Also - be sure you are buying Westin Flex.  There has been some confusion since there is also a Sheraton Flex - a much inferior product since it excludes the Westin's on resale and can only book into Hawaii at the 8 month mark.

Another possibility would be to just buy a resale week at WKORV OV for much less than the price of the proposed Flex package and then use the existing Nanea options to add a few days onto the trip (this would mean moving resorts unfortunately).

Another thing to consider is that if you are going to make a >$10k purchase and you would like even more vacation time would you benefit by picking up a voluntary resort (that currently has no SO) for cheap with a good MF/SO ratio.  Vistana would then let you bring that into the network so you would have SO's to use.  But this is advanced Timeshare Ninja stuff.


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## johnnymavrik

Thanks jabber. We paid about 26k for the 67,100 options at Nanea 2 years ago. It came with 125k SPG points and a couple of other bennies.

And yes they'd be swapping out or crediting our Nanea purchase for the Westin (confirmed) Flex purchase, hence the $12k cost for the extra 28,600 options. That was the least amount of options they would quote as we asked about just getting to 81k options.

Just wanted to ensure I wasn't be stupid about adding more options, as staying up to 8 nights vs the 5 now at Nanea in a 1BR seems ideal.

As an aside..are Bonvoy points the same as SPG points now?


----------



## jabberwocky

johnnymavrik said:


> Thanks jabber. We paid about 26k for the 67,100 options at Nanea 2 years ago. It came with 125k SPG points and a couple of other bennies.
> 
> And yes they'd be swapping out or crediting our Nanea purchase for the Westin (confirmed) Flex purchase, hence the $12k cost for the extra 28,600 options. That was the least amount of options they would quote as we asked about just getting to 81k options.
> 
> Just wanted to ensure I wasn't be stupid about adding more options, as staying up to 8 nights vs the 5 now at Nanea in a 1BR seems ideal.
> 
> As an aside..are Bonvoy points the same as SPG points now?



Yes - Bonvoy replaced the SPG points.  

Overall it's not the worst deal I've seen considering your situation.  I think there is something about Vistana getting to a minimum purchase of $12k rather than a specific point number.  Flex is good if you value flexbility in booking outside of the standard one week interval period (plus the any check-in day of the week is a nice feature).

The purchase would do what you want it to do.  You could probably improve it a bit but that depends on how much you value your time and are willing to hunt for a good resale deal. Others will chime in here and have valuable insights as well.

Bottom line I think it is better to pay a bit more to have something you will be happy with and can use rather than something that isn't useful at all.


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## johnnymavrik

Again, much appreciated. I hate spending the dollars but we go to Maui every year for the past 10 and 2 yrs ago this made sense to finally give in and purchase long term. Wish it had been for the correct amount of options to begin with (still bummed they sold us a week of a suite at a location that didn't have any - again, mea culpa) but getting to a week + a day and not losing too much I guess makes sense.

We just added the Bonvoy Amex card so I guess getting (?) the 6x points on the purchase will help too.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

johnnymavrik said:


> Again, much appreciated. I hate spending the dollars but we go to Maui every year for the past 10 and 2 yrs ago this made sense to finally give in and purchase long term. Wish it had been for the correct amount of options to begin with (still bummed they sold us a week of a suite at a location that didn't have any - again, mea culpa) but getting to a week + a day and not losing too much I guess makes sense.
> 
> We just added the Bonvoy Amex card so I guess getting (?) the 6x points on the purchase will help too.



Hindsight is always 20/20. If you had purchased resale 6 years ago you would be past the breakeven threshold by now. We purchased WKORVN/OF resale and calculate that we will push past the rental breakeven point after our 3rd visit. Faster if we lock-off the unit and stay two weeks, or rent out one side of the unit.


----------



## capjak

I think you have a lot of options.

One would be since you go to Maui every year would be to add a EOY WKORV-North or South, use it for 2 weeks in Maui (EOY) and bank your Nanea options to the next year and then use those the following year (67K with home priority and 67K at 8 months at WKORV-N, South, Nanea).   EOY WKORV North Oceanview ($8,000).  If you do not care about the view than purchase Sheraton Vistana Villiages (Mandatory only) or Westin Kierland (Mandatory).


----------



## DavidnRobin

^^^^^ This ^^^^^


----------



## CPNY

capjak said:


> I think you have a lot of options.
> 
> One would be since you go to Maui every year would be to add a EOY WKORV-North or South, use it for 2 weeks in Maui (EOY) and bank your Nanea options to the next year and then use those the following year (67K with home priority and 67K at 8 months at WKORV-N, South, Nanea).   EOY WKORV North Oceanview ($8,000).  If you do not care about the view than purchase Sheraton Vistana Villiages (Mandatory only) or Westin Kierland (Mandatory).


Depending on when you go to Maui you can still get oceanfront rooms with a star options booking at 8 months. I’ve booked on two separate occasions for family members and was able to use my SVV SO to get oceanfront villas at WKORV-N not sure if that was luck since it was the only two times I ever tried booking Maui and yes it was the off season which is why I say if you’re not tied to a specific time of year (holiday/school break). Again, maybe I just got lucky.


----------



## ValleyGirl

Only 10% of Nanea Resort View is in the Flex pool.  0% of Oceanfront & of course fixed weeks fixed rooms are not.


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## jabberwocky

ValleyGirl said:


> Only 10% of Nanea Resort View is in the Flex pool.  0% of Oceanfront & of course fixed weeks fixed rooms are not.



Source?  I don't think it's a surprise on the OF or fixed weeks.

I've started doing some test searches for 2021 with my small EOYO WFlex package (will be publishing my first set of results after March). 

From what I can see after only three days in Flex is horrible for availability - no one should buy this


----------



## ValleyGirl

jabberwocky said:


> Source?  I don't think it's a surprise on the OF or fixed weeks.
> 
> I've started doing some test searches for 2021 with my small EOYO WFlex package (will be publishing my first set of results after March).
> 
> From what I can only three days in Flex is horrible for availability - no one should buy this


Yes just like Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex has combined a lot of low demand weeks and unused inventory along with a small % of units at Premium Resorts.  The result of all this is that Flex owners find it hard to get "High Demand" weeks or locations.
The flex program is oversold and underdelivered, no one should buy these programs but buy aftermarket deeded weeks.  We bought some weeks from the developer because they have stopped upgrades in a booming economy and people will pay!


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## byeloe

I am pretty sure Jabberwocky was being sarcastic with the winky face.


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## SGould

ValleyGirl said:


> Yes just like Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex has combined a lot of low demand weeks and unused inventory along with a small % of units at Premium Resorts.  The result of all this is that Flex owners find it hard to get "High Demand" weeks or locations.
> The flex program is oversold and underdelivered, no one should buy these programs but buy aftermarket deeded weeks.  We bought some weeks from the developer because they have stopped upgrades in a booming economy and people will pay!


I haven’t had an issue with Hawaii availability as a Flex owner.  I even got a one bedroom at Nanea over Thanksgiving.


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## controller1

SGould said:


> I haven’t had an issue with Hawaii availability as a Flex owner.  I even got a one bedroom at Nanea over Thanksgiving.



I use Westin Flex to add a few days to the front- or back-end of my weeks at WKORV-N and I've also had no problems in getting the days I need even during peak periods.


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## celica7101

Does this mean that there is no 3BR availability in Westin Flex?  AFAIK those are all oceanfront.


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## controller1

celica7101 said:


> Does this mean that there is no 3BR availability in Westin Flex?  AFAIK those are all oceanfront.



It does mean that for Nanea. However, there are usually 3-BR OF available at 8 months exclusive of some peak periods. Of course YMMV.


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## celica7101

controller1 said:


> It does mean that for Nanea. However, there are usually 3-BR OF available at 8 months exclusive of some peak periods. Of course YMMV.




Sorry, yes, I was referring to Nanea, which I had in my head but didn't type out specifically.  I think that only matters insofar as someone wanting to buy 250k Westin Flexpoints to get a 3BR oceanfront room, but not finding it available.


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## cubigbird

I’m curious....We don’t see much Westin Flex on the resale market.  Is it due to it being a fairly new product or is there actually value here?  It seemed with Sheraton Flex we started to resales on the market not too long after it’s launch.


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## dioxide45

cubigbird said:


> I’m curious....We don’t see much Westin Flex on the resale market.  Is it due to it being a fairly new product or is there actually value here?  It seemed with Sheraton Flex we started to resales on the market not too long after it’s launch.


I think it is two fold. Westin Flex is new and perhaps the demographic that Sheraton Flex targets vs Westin Flex. Vistana has two huge sales centers in Orlando selling Sheraton Flex. Likely mostly selling to young families and probably people that shouldn't be buying the product. Westin Flex is targeting a higher income level demographic and they likely aren't as eager to get out from under MFs as those buying Sheraton Flex.


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## wjarcher

Westin Flex has quite a few Maui resorts and I can also see it appealing to folks who want the flexibility (and do not necessarily want to bother with StarOption trading)


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## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> I think it is two fold. Westin Flex is new and perhaps the demographic that Sheraton Flex targets vs Westin Flex. Vistana has two huge sales centers in Orlando selling Sheraton Flex. Likely mostly selling to young families and probably people that shouldn't be buying the product. Westin Flex is targeting a higher income level demographic and they likely aren't as eager to get out from under MFs as those buying Sheraton Flex.



I think you’re right. The minimum buy-in for SFlex is lower than WFlex and the purchase price per SO is also less. I’m surprised at how many small (And really unusable) SFlex packages have come to the market. 

WFlex buyers are likely more financially established.  I have seen a few WFlex on RedWeek - and they seem to have gone at prices that were higher than I was expecting. 



wjarcher said:


> Westin Flex has quite a few Maui resorts and I can also see it appealing to folks who want the flexibility (and do not necessarily want to bother with StarOption trading)


There is a lot of Nanea in WFlex as well as the other Maui resorts and WPORV. These seem to be the resorts that most people want to use SO to trade into. 

WFlex even on resale gives you access to these resorts at the 12 month mark. In this sense, a resale WFlex package is better than buying a mandatory WKV or SVV week to use for SO trading into Maui. Yes, the MF/SO isn’t as good compared to the mainland resorts, but it’s not bad compared to some of the island properties.

If you want to go spend a week in Maui during peak season, you're still better off with actually owning one of those weeks. 

If you want to add a few days to a Maui stay or want a bit more flexibility on check-in day, without playing the SO lotto, then a resale WFlex may be part of a healthy TS portfolio.


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## Ckhawaii

Is Westin Flex sold at a higher price per option by the developer then Sheraton ? I know it has a higher MF.


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## jabberwocky

Ckhawaii said:


> Is Westin Flex sold at a higher price per option by the developer then Sheraton ? I know it has a higher MF.


When they first introduced it I think they were both the same. $0.37/HO. 

Not sure on current pricing, but we purchased last August there was about a 10% premium for WFlex over SFlex in the purchase price after considering discounts. They offered a higher discount on SFlex to us vs. WFlex.


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## jabberwocky

Can anyone confirm if resale Flex HomeOptions can be traded like developer Flex Homeoptions in II? This was just pulled with my Flex unit. Unfortunately it’s for November 13th this year (not going to plan anything to Hawaii this year), but 67,100 points for a MKO 2BR is pretty good. 

I can also see this with the the smaller 1BR SDO (plat) and my SVR 2BR. I’m actually pretty impressed with this SDO in II - trading power is very good. I’ve never traded in II (only getaways) - but I might have to try it out.


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## MICROZE

jabberwocky said:


> Can anyone confirm if resale Flex HomeOptions can be traded like developer Flex Homeoptions in II? This was just pulled with my Flex unit. Unfortunately it’s for November 13th this year (not going to plan anything to Hawaii this year), but 67,100 points for a MKO 2BR is pretty good.
> 
> I can also see this with the the smaller 1BR SDO (plat) and my SVR 2BR. I’m actually pretty impressed with this SDO in II - trading power is very good. I’ve never traded in II (only getaways) - but I might have to try it out.
> 
> View attachment 24994


This year is not a good indication of Trading-Power.
Due to COVID [Hawaii Restrictions], even Low-Power weeks are able to pull 2BR/3BR Marriott/Westin Hawaii weeks for Sep thru Dec 2020.


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## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> Can anyone confirm if resale Flex HomeOptions can be traded like developer Flex Homeoptions in II? This was just pulled with my Flex unit. Unfortunately it’s for November 13th this year (not going to plan anything to Hawaii this year), but 67,100 points for a MKO 2BR is pretty good.
> 
> I can also see this with the the smaller 1BR SDO (plat) and my SVR 2BR. I’m actually pretty impressed with this SDO in II - trading power is very good. I’ve never traded in II (only getaways) - but I might have to try it out.
> 
> View attachment 24994


I see it with my SVV 1Bedroom deluxe (44k SO) I see every week from September through 11/15/2020 so far.


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## jabberwocky

Ah - okay. That makes sense. Here I was thinking it was just the regular TDI chart they were using.


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## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> Ah - okay. That makes sense. Here I was thinking it was just the regular TDI chart they were using.


According to Covid everything is a great trader this year! I suggest booking 2021 travel ASAP. Once people are more stir crazed and comfortable with traveling, inventory is going to be taken quickly. Especially with everyone’s banked and 2021 weeks


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## Eric B

cubigbird said:


> I’m curious....We don’t see much Westin Flex on the resale market.  Is it due to it being a fairly new product or is there actually value here?  It seemed with Sheraton Flex we started to resales on the market not too long after it’s launch.



One just popped up on eBay.









						Westin Flex, 65,000 Points, Annual Usage!!!  | eBay
					

Yes, the two most common forms of usage are Annual (every year) and Biennial (every other year). Choices make vacations fun. What are Points?. - Reoccurring point value is what you will receive. Points, Floating Week, and  Fixed Week.



					www.ebay.com


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## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> One just popped up on eBay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Westin Flex, 65,000 Points, Annual Usage!!!  | eBay
> 
> 
> Yes, the two most common forms of usage are Annual (every year) and Biennial (every other year). Choices make vacations fun. What are Points?. - Reoccurring point value is what you will receive. Points, Floating Week, and  Fixed Week.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


Pretty high MF for the amount of points. Though does that amount on the listing possibly include the VSN fee?


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## wjarcher

dioxide45 said:


> Pretty high MF for the amount of points. Though does that amount on the listing possibly include the VSN fee?


MF for flex is a little over 2 cents per point, so a little over $1300 for this eBay listing plus SVN fees

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## jabberwocky

wjarcher said:


> MF for flex is a little over 2 cents per point, so a little over $1300 for this eBay listing plus SVN fees
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


No SVN on resale. It’s voluntary.


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## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> No SVN on resale. It’s voluntary.


I understand that, I am trying to figure out if the MF listed in the auction includes the VSN fee, and it looks like it does.


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## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> Pretty high MF for the amount of points. Though does that amount on the listing possibly include the VSN fee?


It does include the SVN fees.

My problem with this is the package is slightly too small. You need 67,100 for 1 week in a small 1BR on Maui or 66,650 to extend for three days Saturday-Tuesday in a 2BR. Not really worth doing a retro to bring it into SVN. 

There have also been reported issues with the seller have there not?

Regardless, will be interesting to see where this on ends up.


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## Eric B

The 65K Westin FLEX was just listed on Timeshare Nation, so if anyone is interested they could get it there without having to pay for the closing and transfer costs as opposed to going through the eBay listing.


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## CPNY

Eric B said:


> The 65K Westin FLEX was just listed on Timeshare Nation, so if anyone is interested they could get it there without having to pay for the closing and transfer costs as opposed to going through the eBay listing.


That doesn’t get you much of anything in platinum weeks


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## Eric B

Might be worth it for someone who already owns Westin FLEX.  Otherwise it seems like an odd amount for someone to have bought in the first place.


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## jabberwocky

I wonder if they would give you developer credit towards the purchase of a larger package and allow you to retro in some units at the same time?  I'm guessing the original purchase price for this was around $24k.


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## ndang3

jabberwocky said:


> I wonder if they would give you developer credit towards the purchase of a larger package and allow you to retro in some units at the same time?  I'm guessing the original purchase price for this was around $24k.


Yes, we have done so twice.


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## cubigbird

ndang3 said:


> Yes, we have done so twice.


I wouldn’t mind picking up some Westin Flex on the resale market to help with extensions on my weeks but I rarely see any on the market.


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## jabberwocky

cubigbird said:


> I wouldn’t mind picking up some Westin Flex on the resale market to help with extensions on my weeks but I rarely see any on the market.


A few have been popping up on RedWeek. I’d like to see them cheaper given the price you pay for a mandatory SVV.


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## Venter

cubigbird said:


> I wouldn’t mind picking up some Westin Flex on the resale market to help with extensions on my weeks but I rarely see any on the market.


There is one on eBay but it's a very small package and probably not worth it unless you already own some.


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## cubigbird

Venter said:


> There is one on eBay but it's a very small package and probably not worth it unless you already own some.


What’s a good resale value per point?  I see listings on RedWeek at $.07/point and others on SMTN with sellers asking for delusional prices.  Agree with others, resale prices seem high.  Also given MF bills due I haven’t seen them hit the resale market.  Obviously Sheraton Flex has no resale value but does Westin Flex have resale value?


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## dioxide45

cubigbird said:


> What’s a good resale value per point?  I see listings on RedWeek at $.07/point and others on SMTN with sellers asking for delusional prices.  Agree with others, resale prices seem high.  Also given MF bills due I haven’t seen them hit the resale market.  Obviously Sheraton Flex has no resale value but dues Westin Flex have resale value?


I think it is still too early to tell. We don't really have enough comps to compare. I think Westin Flex will have some value over Sheraton. It has a lot of great resorts that you can book at 12 months. Though unfortunately no oceanfront in Maui and no Mexico. It may retain value for Maui alone. How much value is anyone's guess.


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## jabberwocky

I agree that it is early to see what the value is, but those hoping for SFlex prices (giveaways) will probably be disappointed.  

The way I think about it is the MF are about the same as a WPORV or Maui week (roughly), but you get more flexibility to use within the WFlex "mini-system" relative to a voluntary WPORV week, and you also get to book earlier into other WFlex resorts than a mandatory Maui week via SO.  The downside is you don't get to bank HO as you can with SO.

$0.07/HO would put a value of around $10k on a 148,100 package.  I think this is high relative to both WPORV and Maui resales.  I think a fair price is probably around the $0.03-0.5/HO range.  To me, larger packages will be more valuable as they can also be requalified in the future.

My first choice would still be a WKORV-N OF week to balance the initial outlay cost with a view guarantee.  But for a person who doesn't want to invest a whole lot up front and can handle slightly higher MF (and doesn't mind potential IV or OV assignment), a cheap resale Flex package may work. 

We also don't know what will pass ROFR...


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## CPNY

I would only want WFlex for westin riverfront ski weeks. I’ve been able to get Maui oceanfront during the times I would travel there


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## alexadeparis

As the MF for Westin Flex is approaching $3k+ for a 148,100 Ish amount Of points, is it better to target a high MF mandatory that has full star options Instead of hunting down a Westin flex? You lose the multiple home resort advantage of the flex but can still go outside the tiny flex group when you wish. Just thinking out loud.


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## controller1

alexadeparis said:


> As the MF for Westin Flex is approaching $3k+ for a 148,100 Ish amount Of points, is it better to target a high MF mandatory that has full star options Instead of hunting down a Westin flex? You lose the multiple home resort advantage of the flex but can still go outside the tiny flex group when you wish. Just thinking out loud.



Why would you target a high MF mandatory instead of a lower MF mandatory?


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## jabberwocky

alexadeparis said:


> As the MF for Westin Flex is approaching $3k+ for a 148,100 Ish amount Of points, is it better to target a high MF mandatory that has full star options Instead of hunting down a Westin flex? You lose the multiple home resort advantage of the flex but can still go outside the tiny flex group when you wish. Just thinking out loud.


I'm not sure I would buy a high MF mandatory unit as a SO generator to get into one of the Sheraton, Mexican or WSJ resorts.  You'd be better off paying $15k for a WKV Plat unit than $20K + for a WKORV-N OF.  You've got lower MF/SO with WKV.  You buy the WKORV-N for resort priority access, not for SO.


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## alexadeparis

controller1 said:


> Why would you target a high MF mandatory instead of a lower MF mandatory?


Of course, There’s always a tradeoff between purchase price and MF. Preference is always for a low MF Unit like a WKV, but I am just asking. So clearly, the WKV is the better buy In general, and saves half the MF each year. Competition for them are always fierce. I’m NOT talking about those. These units are Literally snapped up as soon as one comes along at a decent cost.

The Few Westin flex resale Packages I have seen have Prices that are in line with the low MF mandatory units like WKV But at double the MF. At $300 or so difference between Westin flex MF and let’s say, HRA MF - as devil’s advocate- would it be worth buying an HRA at $1,000 (As an example) vs a similar Westin flex package for $10k? It would take Roughly 20 years to break even at a very low purchase point Vs. paying $10k upfront. Less competition maybe, probably lower buy In. Plus you would have Full star options and not home options. I just think it makes the Westin flex look even worse overall as far as value.


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## vacationtime1

The benefit of the Westin Flex trust is that it owns multiple resorts where owners can reserve at twelve months.  Owning an HRA allows twelve month reservations at HRA only; unless you always want to stay at HRA, you will be making all of your reservations eight months out.  Owning a Kierland unit has the same problem, although the MF's are much lower.

My own concern about the Westin Flex trust is whether it owns enough Hawaii weeks, ski weeks, and winter desert weeks to meet owners' expectations (people don't buy Westin Flex for summer desert weeks, but the trust undoubtedly owns many of them).


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## CPNY

HRA for 1000 is actually $2500 when it’s all said and done. Actually $4000 when you add in the “offer to pay lawyer fee of 1500” when you beg someone to take it from you.


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## jabberwocky

vacationtime1 said:


> The benefit of the Westin Flex trust is that it owns multiple resorts where owners can reserve at twelve months.  Owning an HRA allows twelve month reservations at HRA only; unless you always want to stay at HRA, you will be making all of your reservations eight months out.  Owning a Kierland unit has the same problem, although the MF's are much lower.
> 
> My own concern about the Westin Flex trust is whether it owns enough Hawaii weeks, ski weeks, and winter desert weeks to meet owners' expectations (people don't buy Westin Flex for summer desert weeks, but the trust undoubtedly owns many of them).


Flexibility is the key here, and people do value that.  Being able to reserve some of the most demanded resorts in the system at 12 months (and start any day of the week) has several advantages in specific situations.  We use our small Flex package to add a few days to our regular WKORV-N week without having to wait for the 8-month mark to play the SO lotto; particularly at peak times.  7 days on Maui is always a bit too short, and 14 days is too long.  Our school district spring break is 10-12 days long depending on the year, so adding 3-4 days works perfectly for us.  Later when the kids are older (we have four) - I imagine we may want to use our HO to add a studio to run consecutive to our booking so everyone has a bit more space (or we can invite friends/family).  

This year I grabbed a spring break week in March with our WKORV-N unit, and then added three days (which returning on a Tuesday instead of a Saturday or Sunday saved us $300 in airfare per person -$1800 total - more than our MF for the package).  I've recently cancelled that due to uncertainty over reopening, and picked up an early August WKORV-N week, also adding four days with the Flex.  Availability was good.

In general, I've been fairly pleased with availability.  It isn't all summer desert weeks.  Right now I can book a 4th of July week at Nanea or Princeville in a 2BR (July 2 or 3rd check-in).  There is a studio available at WKORV.  Keep in mind we're nearly two months into the booking window and I can't see Maui with my WKORV-N home week at this point.  There is no 2BR SO availability for Nanea at that time and low availability listed for WKORV-N.  

The one thing that I have noticed that is lacking is 2BR ski and summer weeks at WRMV (I do see the occassional 1BR), so I wouldn't buy into flex if that is something you must have.  Winter weeks at WKV (Feb.-Mar.) go fast, but they are there at the 12 month mark.  WMH and WDW seem to have availaility pretty much any-time during the priority booking period for Feb.-Mar.

I was skeptical of the WFlex system at first. But the more I have seen and used the WFlex program, the more I am appreciating it.  It's not for everyone and I would continue to recommend a mandatory resale week if you want Maui for 7 days, but to augment your Vistana portfolio it's not a terrible thing.


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## alexadeparis

vacationtime1 said:


> The benefit of the Westin Flex trust is that it owns multiple resorts where owners can reserve at twelve months.  Owning an HRA allows twelve month reservations at HRA only; unless you always want to stay at HRA, you will be making all of your reservations eight months out.  Owning a Kierland unit has the same problem, although the MF's are much lower.
> 
> My own concern about the Westin Flex trust is whether it owns enough Hawaii weeks, ski weeks, and winter desert weeks to meet owners' expectations (people don't buy Westin Flex for summer desert weeks, but the trust undoubtedly owns many of them).



I would have the same concern with inventory in flex Too. I own SVR units, developer purchased VERY cheaply by using a trade in that I got for free. I have never stayed there. I have SVV Resale I bought for $100, again, never stayed. The only one I always plan to stay at is WSJ, which I got for $1700, Which of course commands about $3200 in MF for my 3 bed pool villa. I haven’t so far had any problems making any SO ressies with my SVR/SVV units and I personally would probably seek out SVV units if I were looking to add more points To my collection. As of right now I am $16,000 all in purchase price wise for 245,000 SOs. MF annuals are $5k. Most of that is my pool villa.

it just seems to me going forward that mandatory units may begin to dry up due to deed backs, that then get transferred into flex inventory, that we as Tuggers May have to revise our thinking And strategy at some point.  if the market forces drive the plat plus WKVs north of $20k, I think some folks might rethink the general MO. In my opinion, of course.


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## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> Flexibility is the key here, and people do value that.  Being able to reserve some of the most demanded resorts in the system at 12 months (and start any day of the week) has several advantages in specific situations.  We use our small Flex package to add a few days to our regular WKORV-N week without having to wait for the 8-month mark to play the SO lotto; particularly at peak times.  7 days on Maui is always a bit too short, and 14 days is too long.  Our school district spring break is 10-12 days long depending on the year, so adding 3-4 days works perfectly for us.  Later when the kids are older (we have four) - I imagine we may want to use our HO to add a studio to run consecutive to our booking so everyone has a bit more space (or we can invite friends/family).
> 
> This year I grabbed a spring break week in March with our WKORV-N unit, and then added three days (which returning on a Tuesday instead of a Saturday or Sunday saved us $300 in airfare per person -$1800 total - more than our MF for the package).  I've recently cancelled that due to uncertainty over reopening, and picked up an early August WKORV-N week, also adding four days with the Flex.  Availability was good.
> 
> In general, I've been fairly pleased with availability.  It isn't all summer desert weeks.  Right now I can book a 4th of July week at Nanea or Princeville in a 2BR (July 2 or 3rd check-in).  There is a studio available at WKORV.  Keep in mind we're nearly two months into the booking window and I can't see Maui with my WKORV-N home week at this point.  There is no 2BR SO availability for Nanea at that time and low availability listed for WKORV-N.
> 
> The one thing that I have noticed that is lacking is 2BR ski and summer weeks at WRMV (I do see the occassional 1BR), so I wouldn't buy into flex if that is something you must have.  Winter weeks at WKV (Feb.-Mar.) go fast, but they are there at the 12 month mark.  WMH and WDW seem to have availaility pretty much any-time during the priority booking period for Feb.-Mar.
> 
> I was skeptical of the WFlex system at first. But the more I have seen and used the WFlex program, the more I am appreciating it.  It's not for everyone and I would continue to recommend a mandatory resale week if you want Maui for 7 days, but to augment your Vistana portfolio it's not a terrible thing.


I looked into Westin flex but after reading here that ski weeks at Westin riverfront are nonexistent it didn’t make sense for me.


----------

