# [Paypal Ordeal] [Update - HAPPY ENDING!]



## DeniseM (Jul 12, 2011)

*The situation has changed, so I changed my title.

On June 29th I sent a payment for a timeshare rental.

I sent it to the wrong email address - but I didn't know it.

2 days later the owner contacted me and said that she looked at my email and noticed that I had her Paypal email wrong.  

So I sent $1,200 to a complete stranger.

The same day, I filed a dispute with Paypal.

Today I received a canned email from Paypal saying that they were denying my claim - with no explanation!



> We have completed our investigation of your case and, as there is
> insufficient evidence in support of your claim, we have denied your
> Unauthorized Account Use Claim.



I could cry!     

Any suggestions?


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## NWL (Jul 12, 2011)

Can you look at your PayPal history to see the email that was sent to the wrong person?  Seems someone should have a "paper trail" of this.

Edit: was it payment by credit card or payment by bank transfer?

Good luck!

Cheers!


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## DeniseM (Jul 12, 2011)

Yes - the details are all there for Paypal to see.

I paid with the cash in my Paypal Acct.


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## tombo (Jul 12, 2011)

I assume the person you are/were renting from still wants their $1200.


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## DeniseM (Jul 12, 2011)

tombo said:


> I assume the person you are/were renting from still wants their $1200.



Yes - I'm obligated to pay them.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 12, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> On June 29th I sent a payment for a timeshare rental.
> 
> I sent it to the wrong email address - but I didn't know it.
> 
> ...



Yes.  You disputed the payment incorrectly.  You claimed that someone sent a payment from your account in an unauthorized fashion when you admit here that you actually sent the payment.

What you should do is dispute the charge that you did not receive the goods that you purchased.  If you sent a personal transaction to avoid paypal fees, then you have to have the owner reverse the payment.

As long as you did not send it as a personal transaction, the seller has to prove they sent you the goods or you have a claim against the seller.  Since the seller is not the correct one, you should win the dispute.


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## easyrider (Jul 12, 2011)

Boy o Boy oy oy oy oy. Thats messed up. 

Whats happens now ? 

I bet Boca Bum is right.


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## DeniseM (Jul 12, 2011)

I just got off the phone with Paypal and I spoke to a very nice young man.  He is going to call the stranger that I sent the money to tomorrow. 

Paypal sent the stranger 3 emails, but he did not respond.

I can't imagine that on that basis they decided against me.

BTW- I told Paypal the complete truth from the beginning - I told them upfront that I made a mistake on the email address.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 12, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> I just got off the phone with Paypal and I spoke to a very nice young man.  He is going to call the stranger that I sent the money to tomorrow.
> 
> Paypal sent the stranger 3 emails, but he did not respond.
> 
> ...



It's not a matter of whether or not you told the truth.  You did submit your charge back incorrectly.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 12, 2011)

Denise, I hope you get this straightened out.  

I accidentally sent a payment via Paypal to an email that didn't exist.  It all turned out okay.


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 12, 2011)

I had a renter that sent their payment to the wrong email address (but a valid one).  But they were able to retract the payment, because the recipient had not yet accepted it.  I take it you have tried to retract the payment and cannot?

I have found Paypal customer service to be very helpful in the past, sounds like you've got someone helping you, hope it works out for you.


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## Ken555 (Jul 13, 2011)

You'll get it, Denise! 

Though this brings up a good point, in that paypal isn't always "on your side". I had a dispute with them years ago which wasn't happy for any involved, but at the end it became clear to me that they didn't really believe in customer service. Now that they are owned by eBay for a while, I suspect things have gotten better. But, I have to say that there are so many restrictions and arbitrary outcomes that it is definitely the service of last resort for me and many other businesses I know.


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## l2trade (Jul 13, 2011)

I hope this gets reversed quickly in your favor Denise.  Paypal should correct what is an obvious mistake.  Like someone said earlier, you sent payment for services not received.


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## DeniseM (Jul 13, 2011)

Here is the weird part - I sent the email to a name that was similar to this - *I changed the names but you will get the idea.*

I sent it to kdobrien@aol. com (Kevin O'Brien)

But I should have sent it to kdobrien65@aol. com
*
*this is not the person's REAL name - it's a similar name to explain how close the names on the Acct. are.*

This is the weird thing - the unknown stranger has the same name!  Both the stranger, and the timeshare owner, are named Kevin O'Brien, so Kevin O'Brien came up on Paypal when I sent the money, and I thought it was the right person!


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## LisaH (Jul 13, 2011)

I wonder if it IS the same person? same name with AOL account which should not be too popular these days like Gmail or Yahoo? Hmmm...


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## glypnirsgirl (Jul 13, 2011)

That stinks! I think that their customer service has greatly improved because I used to get constant complaints about them and it has been more than 3 years since the last complaint.

Good Luck!

elaine


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## DeniseM (Jul 13, 2011)

LisaH said:


> I wonder if it IS the same person? same name with AOL account which should not be too popular these days like Gmail or Yahoo? Hmmm...



It's not the same person - definitely.  I actually know the person that I was trying to send the payment to, but their paypal email is different than their regular email.  The owner is actually a Tugger.


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## scrapngen (Jul 13, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear of your problem, Denise. 

Don't they realise how often you suggest using PayPal to readers for transactions because you can dispute them if there's a problem??? They should send you referral fees for all the business you send their way - not invalidate your trust in their system... :ignore:


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## isisdave (Jul 13, 2011)

I'm stunned that you actually found a phone number for PayPal and were able to talk to a human.  Last time I had a problem, their number was nowhere on their website and it was clear they didn't want to talk to anyone.


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## am1 (Jul 13, 2011)

google "paypal sucks"  and you will get the number.  

It will be resolved you just have to be patient and triple check next time that you are paying the correct e-mail and if that fails that you dispute the payment properly.


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## klynn (Jul 13, 2011)

I think it is always a good idea that before you send money to someone, they send you a PayPal invoice first.  That way you just pay the invoice and know that the funds go to the correct person.  Any time some one wants money through PayPal, I tell them to send me an invoice and I will pay immediately.


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## pkyorkbeach (Jul 13, 2011)

Good Luck...Hopefully it will all work out.  How quickly and simply something can happen.


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## Mel (Jul 13, 2011)

klynn said:


> I think it is always a good idea that before you send money to someone, they send you a PayPal invoice first.  That way you just pay the invoice and know that the funds go to the correct person.  Any time some one wants money through PayPal, I tell them to send me an invoice and I will pay immediately.


That's exactly my though - too easy to mix up email addresses with all the extra numbers and letters.

Obviously the person who received the payment jumped at the idea of "free money" and isn't going to reply to any emails from Paypal.  They money is already in their account (and they probably already removed or spent it).


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## 1st Class (Jul 13, 2011)

klynn said:


> *I think it is always a good idea that before you send money to someone, they send you a PayPal invoice first.  That way you just pay the invoice and know that the funds go to the correct person. * Any time some one wants money through PayPal, I tell them to send me an invoice and I will pay immediately.



Thanks for this suggestion -- it's a good piece of advice.  I'm new to Paypal and want to avoid issues like Denise is having.

Denise, everyone makes mistakes.  I hope this works out for you.


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## Weimaraner (Jul 13, 2011)

Yes good idea about invoice. My email address contains my last name and I get emails directed at another person with same last name about coaching. I always email back to let them know they got the wrong one. I don't get mysterious payments from Paypal just some spam that looks like it's from Paypal. Good luck Denise - I think Paypal will do the right thing here. Just a matter of time.


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## ampaholic (Jul 13, 2011)

Denise 

PayPal is regulated by banking laws - if you are having trouble with them resolving this simple human error - do contact the AG in both your state and the State you sent the payment in error to.

PayPal is not at fault for the human error - but they would be liable for a "cover up" if they attempt one. They have a fiduciary duty to you to ensure your money is properly handled.

Also if you can get the phone number of the person who *wrongly* accepted the payment - a call from your lawyer explaining the "ramifications" of accepting a payment intended for someone else may be in order.

Such "wrongly" accepting a payment may well be a crime - just as finding a wallet and failing to return it or turn it into police is a crime in many jurisdictions.

As a last resort - consider litigation against PayPal - they will likely want to settle rather than stir up "press" about how poor their performance is.


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## Pat H (Jul 13, 2011)

ampaholic said:


> Denise
> 
> PayPal is regulated by banking laws - if you are having trouble with them resolving this simple human error - do contact the AG in both your state and the State you sent the payment in error to.
> 
> ...



In PA there is a criminal statute.

§ 3924.  Theft of property lost, mislaid, or delivered by
                mistake.
        A person who comes into control of property of another that
     he knows to have been lost, mislaid, or delivered under a
     mistake as to the nature or amount of the property or the
     identity of the recipient is guilty of theft if, with intent to
     deprive the owner thereof, he fails to take reasonable measures
     to restore the property to a person entitled to have it.


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## nightnurse613 (Jul 13, 2011)

Over the course of many years I have seen electronic payments made in error sucked out of the accounts they were deposited in (sometimes weeks after they were deposited).  This can cause quite a problem with the bank for which the account owner will get little sympathy from the bank.  I personally had a transaction with PayPal a couple of years back where the seller clearly was defrauding - he used invisible typing to counter what the rest of the ad was saying!!--I have no idea where or how PayPal came up with the money but I got it back.


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## pjrose (Jul 13, 2011)

Maybe I missed this up above, but did you email the incorrect recipient to explain the error?  

PJ


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## DeniseM (Jul 13, 2011)

pjrose said:


> Maybe I missed this up above, but did you email the incorrect recipient to explain the error?
> 
> PJ



Yes - he accused me of being a scammer.  

He has not responded to any of Paypals inquiries by email - Paypal is calling him today.


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## ampaholic (Jul 13, 2011)

California penal code SECTION 484-502.9:

484 -snip-

485.  One who finds lost property under circumstances which give him
knowledge of or means of inquiry as to the true owner, and who
appropriates such property to his own use, or to the use of another
person not entitled thereto, without first making reasonable and just
efforts to find the owner and to restore the property to him, is
guilty of theft.



486.  Theft is divided into two degrees, the first of which is
termed grand theft; the second, petty theft.



487.  Grand theft is theft committed in any of the following cases:
   (a) When the money, labor, or real or personal property taken is
of a value exceeding nine hundred fifty dollars ($950),

-snip-

What state does the Thief reside in? 

If it is another state than Ca. you have "Interstate theft by electronic means" AKA "wire fraud" - please contact the Secret Service.


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## DeniseM (Jul 13, 2011)

The only info. I have about him is his name and email address.  A google search of his email address hasn't produced any info.  If he doesn't give me my money back, I will dig deeper.


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## chriskre (Jul 13, 2011)

Denise,

So sorry you're going thru this.   

As someone who does thousands of paypal transactions a year, I can tell you that I get a TON of phishing spam that all says it's from paypal.  I can see where the receipient is coming from with thinking you are a spammer.  I'd probably think the same and ignore this and just let paypal rectify the situation.  Paypal can and will freeze an account or the funds in question, if they have a problem they're investigating, so as the recipient they'd be at risk too.  

I agree with only paying invoices and not just sending money to an email address with paypal.  They kinda live by their own set of rules and they're technically not considered a bank.  They have to follow some of the banking laws but not all, since they're not a bank.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2011)

Update - I finally got a 2nd response from the person I sent the money to:



> My attorney is reviewing the documentation from paypal.
> 
> I am a very busy person and do not have time for this. I will let you know when I find an answer.
> 
> ...



What do you think?  Is this BS or an honest answer?

Note that his Paypal Acct. lists him as "Kevin" not "Keith"


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## Elan (Jul 14, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Update - I finally got a 2nd response from the person I sent the money to:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



   To me, the answer seems reasonable.  But the Kevin/Keith thing casts suspicion.  Perhaps he's just stalling hoping that you eventually give up.  

  One thing to keep in mind is that not everyone is on the internet as much as most of us.  So he may only read email once every 3 days or so.   Also, if he's truly swamped (work, personal issues, etc) I could see this not being near the top of his priority list and dragging on for awhile.

  Hopefully you get your money back soon.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 14, 2011)

This will come to a successful conclusion.  It will just be a royal PITA.  At this time, you have all the parties engaged in the process.

I do not believe he retained an attorney to resolve this matter.  There is no need to incur that expense.  He probably asked a friend for advice or is bluffing.  I would wait 2 more weeks and then start taking real action by getting an attorney of your own.  Your attorney can subpoena paypal and the ISP for the contact information for this guy.  Then, you can file a complaint in small claims court.  When he is served with the subpoena, he will return the money.

If you sent the payment as a personal transaction to avoid paypal fees, you learned exactly why this is a bad idea.  If you didn't, you should dispute the charge properly.


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## ace2000 (Jul 14, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Update - I finally got a 2nd response from the person I sent the money to:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
This would concern me quite a bit... you'll never know if he's actually working with an attorney or not;  or he might be trying to find out if he has any legal grounds to keep the money.  

In any case, he could be stating this line for a very long time.  Maybe he's stalling because he already spent the money and can't repay right now.  Who knows?  All speculation on my part.


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2011)

BocaBum99 - You are correct.  I sent the payment using the "personal" tab because I was renting from a Tugger, who I know personally.

With a stranger, I always use the other method to send or receive a payment.

Thanks for all your good advice.


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## ace2000 (Jul 14, 2011)

One more item... by stating that _he doesn't have time for this, _he's trying to brush you off.  In other words... don't call me, I'll call you.


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## ace2000 (Jul 14, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> I do not believe he retained an attorney to resolve this matter.  There is no need to incur that expense.  He probably asked a friend for advice or is bluffing.  I would wait 2 more weeks and then start taking real action by getting an attorney of your own.  Your attorney can subpoena paypal and the ISP for the contact information for this guy.  Then, you can file a complaint in small claims court.  When he is served with the subpoena, he will return the money.


 
Just curious... any idea on what the costs would be to hire an attorney for a process like this?


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2011)

ace2000 said:


> One more item... by stating that _he doesn't have time for this, _he's trying to brush you off.  In other words... don't call me, I'll call you.



Yeah - if he's so busy, you'd think he'd get this taken care of and get it over with, instead of letting it drag on!


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## sjuhawk_jd (Jul 14, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> BocaBum99 - You are correct.  I sent the payment using the "personal" tab because I was renting from a Tugger, who I know personally.
> 
> With a stranger, I always use the other method to send or receive a payment.
> 
> Thanks for all your good advice.



Denise, did you put a note (comments) when you sent the payment, explaining what the payment is for?


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## ace2000 (Jul 14, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Yeah - if he's so busy, you'd think he'd get this taken care of and get it over with, instead of letting it drag on!


 
That's the point... he does not want this to be over with and he does not want you to bother him about it.

There is no possible way that he doesn't know what is going on here.


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2011)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> Denise, did you put a note (comments) when you sent the payment, explaining what the payment is for?



No - I send that info in a separate email


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## Margariet (Jul 14, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> Yes.  You disputed the payment incorrectly.  You claimed that someone sent a payment from your account in an unauthorized fashion when you admit here that you actually sent the payment.
> 
> What you should do is dispute the charge that you did not receive the goods that you purchased.  If you sent a personal transaction to avoid paypal fees, then you have to have the owner reverse the payment.
> 
> As long as you did not send it as a personal transaction, the seller has to prove they sent you the goods or you have a claim against the seller.  Since the seller is not the correct one, you should win the dispute.



This is the correct answer. If you dispute the charge Paypal will freeze it on the account of the one you sent it to. You should do this immediately after the payment in which Paypal still can block it. I've had a similar experience and this worked out well.


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## ace2000 (Jul 14, 2011)

Margariet said:


> This is the correct answer. If you dispute the charge Paypal will freeze it on the account of the one you sent it to. You should do this immediately after the payment in which Paypal still can block it. I've had a similar experience and this worked out well.


 
I think you have to catch it early though.  At this point, it appears it's too late in the process for Denise to do that.  The payment is no longer pending.


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2011)

Margariet said:


> This is the correct answer. If you dispute the charge Paypal will freeze it on the account of the one you sent it to. You should do this immediately after the payment in which Paypal still can block it. I've had a similar experience and this worked out well.



I've already done all that - Paypal denied my claim.


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## ace2000 (Jul 14, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> I've already done all that - Paypal denied my claim.


 
Sorry, I was talking about cancelling the transaction.  

I'm going back to my corner now...


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2011)

I didn't find out that I'd used the wrong email address for more than 24 hours.


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## Margariet (Jul 14, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> I've already done all that - Paypal denied my claim.



Sorry to hear that. How awful. I really don't understand it was denied. I mean, you haven't received a product or service from this person. You have only sent him money. Isn't there a friendly attorney at law on this board who can advise you??


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2011)

I just called PP again - this time I talked to a supervisor.  She called the person who has my money, while I was on hold, but he did not answer.  She left a message for him.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 14, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> I just called PP again - this time I talked to a supervisor.  She called the person who has my money, while I was on hold, but he did not answer.  She left a message for him.



This is good.  So if the guy is at all honest, he will know you aren't trying to take something from him.  I think he is just trying to keep money that doesn't belong to him.


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## ada903 (Jul 14, 2011)

Found their email here:

[I deleted the info. your posted because the name I posted is not the real name, it is just an example of the similarity between the two names - sorry for the confusion!  DeniseM]


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## ada903 (Jul 14, 2011)

LOL Denise!  They searching Facebook with that email address, sometimes people come up that way, and maybe you can get their location and then further info that way.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 14, 2011)

The problem is that Denise sent this transaction as a personal transfer of funds.  Such transfers are NOT protected by Paypal merchant / seller rules.  So, it is not possible to dispute such a charge.

Remember, paypal makes money on each transaction and it provides payment assurance / buyer protection services as part of their services for a fee.  When you bypass Paypal fees, you are self insuring.  Denise learned the hard way that sending payments should only be via the standard paypal mechanisms unless you are really careful on what you do.  One mistake will cost you 10,0000 transactions worth of fees.

If you send a paypal transaction via normal methods and send it to the wrong email address.  Paypal will freeze the funds and return them if the person you sent the money to cannot prove they are entitled to it.


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## ampaholic (Jul 14, 2011)

I want to commend Denise for sharing her ordeal with us so we can all learn from it.

I have learned not to use my PayPal balance to pay someone and will endeavor to always use a credit card for such payments.


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## PigsDad (Jul 14, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Yeah - if he's so busy, you'd think he'd get this taken care of and get it over with, instead of letting it drag on!


The guy with your money has absolutely no incentive to resolve this quickly.  If I were in his shoes, I would tread slowly as well.  How would I know this is not an elaborate scam?  How would I know you did not get my phone number from some other means and call me up, saying you were from PayPal?

I'm sure you will get your money back, but I can certainly see his side of things and probably wanting to be very cautious.  And who knows?  Maybe he is really busy.  Maybe he is on vacation and has limited access to email.  There are just too many variables here to conclude that he is not an honest person and will, eventually, do the right thing.

Kurt


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## pjrose (Jul 14, 2011)

Denise, have you asked to speak to the PayPal people's supervisors or to have the matter escalated?  The head of customer service?  This should be such a simple matter - it was a simply typographical error, no big deal.  

Keith/Kevin and his comment sound pretty peculiar.  

I do understand why he may have thought it was a scam; I would have too at first.  I'm guessing that PayPal can't simply reverse it because he probably pulled the money out of his account right away.  His recent email sounds evasive.

I'm sure it'll be resolved in your favor eventually - but good grief it shouldn't take so much of a run-around.


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2011)

Yes - we have 2 threads going here, because someone started a follow-up thread but I talked to a supervisor today, she called him while I was on hold, and he did not answer the phone.  She left a message.  Paypal will not take the money back - he has to give it back.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 14, 2011)

pjrose said:


> Denise, have you asked to speak to the PayPal people's supervisors or to have the matter escalated?  The head of customer service?  This should be such a simple matter - it was a simply typographical error, no big deal.
> 
> Keith/Kevin and his comment sound pretty peculiar.
> 
> ...



It is a simple matter when you send a payment as a business transaction.


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## bogey21 (Jul 14, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> The problem is that Denise sent this transaction as a personal transfer of funds.  Such transfers are NOT protected by Paypal merchant / seller rules.  So, it is not possible to dispute such a charge................If you send a paypal transaction via normal methods and send it to the wrong email address.  Paypal will freeze the funds and return them if the person you sent the money to cannot prove they are entitled to it.



Are Personal Transfer of Funds exempt from PayPal fees?

George


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## slip (Jul 14, 2011)

As far as the person thinking they may be getting scammed,
Emails are one thing but emails and phone calls? All he
has to do is check his account and verify the
overage. Maybe he is out of town, but once he checks
it should be returned quickly.
Good Luck Denise.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 14, 2011)

bogey21 said:


> Are Personal Transfer of Funds exempt from PayPal fees?
> 
> George



Yes.  That's why people do them.  Unfortunately, they have not factored in all of the personal risks of doing so.  This thread highlights that risk.

I do believe Denise will get her money back mostly because it is a paypal verified account.  That means it is possible to find the person and sue them.  As is posted in this thread, there are laws against taking money that isn't yours especially when the rightful owner claims it.

An attorney will probably cost $500-1000 to retain.  I would try for 2 more weeks and then fire the nuclear option of an attorney.  One subpoena and a registered letter should do it.


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## Ridewithme38 (Jul 14, 2011)

We haven't asked the important question...Are you still going to be able to go on that vacation Denise?


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> We haven't asked the important question...Are you still going to be able to go on that vacation Denise?



Yes - that's not an issue.   I'd just like to not have to pay for it twice!


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## ace2000 (Jul 14, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Yes - we have 2 threads going here, because someone started a follow-up thread but I talked to a supervisor today, she called him while I was on hold, and he did not answer the phone.  She left a message.  Paypal will not take the money back - he has to give it back.


 
Denise, you're welcome to delete that other thread...


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## ace2000 (Jul 14, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> The problem is that Denise sent this transaction as a personal transfer of funds.  Such transfers are NOT protected by Paypal merchant / seller rules.  So, it is not possible to dispute such a charge.
> 
> Remember, paypal makes money on each transaction and it provides payment assurance / buyer protection services as part of their services for a fee.  When you bypass Paypal fees, you are self insuring.  Denise learned the hard way that sending payments should only be via the standard paypal mechanisms unless you are really careful on what you do.  One mistake will cost you 10,0000 transactions worth of fees.
> 
> If you send a paypal transaction via normal methods and send it to the wrong email address.  Paypal will freeze the funds and return them if the person you sent the money to cannot prove they are entitled to it.


 
I appreciate your very clear explanation about this.  I've definitely learned a lesson...


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## Elan (Jul 14, 2011)

PigsDad said:


> The guy with your money has absolutely no incentive to resolve this quickly.  If I were in his shoes, I would tread slowly as well.  How would I know this is not an elaborate scam?  How would I know you did not get my phone number from some other means and call me up, saying you were from PayPal?
> 
> I'm sure you will get your money back, but I can certainly see his side of things and probably wanting to be very cautious.  And who knows?  Maybe he is really busy.  Maybe he is on vacation and has limited access to email.  There are just too many variables here to conclude that he is not an honest person and will, eventually, do the right thing.
> 
> Kurt



  This is what I was thinking also.  Say this guys mom is in the hospital, or he's trying to hit a tight deadline at work.  Is he really going to have a sense of urgency in dealing with some random emails and phone calls, particularly given how often PayPal is linked to scams?  

  I certainly sympathize with Denise's situation, but I do think that it's too early in the process to assume any dishonesty on his part.


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2011)

Jim - He's had the money for 18 days, and he was contacted by PP and me, 16 days ago, and multiple times since then.  There is also a notice IN his Paypal Acct.  He could return it with 2 little clicks.


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## Elan (Jul 14, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Jim - He's had the money for 18 days, and he was contacted by PP and me, 16 days ago, and multiple times since then.  There is also a notice IN his Paypal Acct.  He could return it with 2 little clicks.



  Don't get me wrong.  I'm with you in that it seems like a case of dishonesty (at worst) or intentional foot dragging (at best).  I just tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and try to envision scenarios that might explain their actions.  Best of luck in your quest.


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2011)

Elan said:


> Don't get me wrong.  I'm with you in that it seems like a case of dishonesty (at worst) or intentional foot dragging (at best).  I just tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and try to envision scenarios that might explain their actions.  Best of luck in your quest.



I sure hope you are right!  I understand his reaction to me - but it would be so simple to confirm it with PP, that I am suspicious, because he doesn't seem to want to do that.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 14, 2011)

Denise,
Have you Google this guy to figure out what state he is in? 18 days is a long time to stall you in not returning this money.

As for using Keith vs Kevin, I do that all the time. It is not that I am dishonest or hiding things, I just rather not have my personal info out in cyber-space.


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2011)

I can't find any info. under his email address...


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## Ken555 (Jul 14, 2011)

http://www.paypalsucks.com/


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## glypnirsgirl (Jul 14, 2011)

Denise - You are in California. It is a CRIME for someone to keep the funds that do not belong to him.

It has been sufficient time for an honest person to have returned the money. With this delay, I believe that he is dishonest. It is time to call the police and make a complaint.

The perpetrator may respond with a greater sense of urgency to the police.

elaine


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## ada903 (Jul 14, 2011)

Can Paypal provide you with his personal contact info, since you transacted with him?  For example on eBay if you purchased an item, you can request the seller's info from eBay - like shipping addresss etc.


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## e.bram (Jul 14, 2011)

It is not Paypal's fault OP sent the money to the wrong person. Morally they should try to help get the money back, but they are not responsible to pay any claim against them. Hey, they(computer)did  what you asked.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 14, 2011)

e.bram said:


> It is not Paypal's fault OP sent the money to the wrong person. Morally they should try to help get the money back, but they are not responsible to pay any claim against them. Hey did whay you asked.


Always so helpful.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 14, 2011)

ada903 said:


> Can Paypal provide you with his personal contact info, since you transacted with him?  For example on eBay if you purchased an item, you can request the seller's info from eBay - like shipping addresss etc.



Probably not without a subpoena.  Definitely yes with one.


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## jme (Jul 14, 2011)

i use only a credit card with paypal , and that allows me to call the credit card company and reverse the charges anytime I want. I've done it a couple times without calling paypal first. they don't like it, but tough. it's my money. With cash from a bank acct, you're going to have a problem, but it still should get resolved.


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## e.bram (Jul 14, 2011)

I don't think they will let you make a personal transfer(no fee) from a CC. if he OP had used a transaction transfer(fee) she would have been covered.(a la Boca)


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## pjrose (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm thinking the person is definitely an opportunist - whether he's dishonest we don't know.  A windfall fell in his lap, and unlike many of us he didn't return it right away.  I would have been very skeptical at first, and feared that returning it would take the money out of my own CC or bank acct, and then if the windfall "bounced" I'd be out my own money.  

However, after all this time, it's ridiculous.

Denise, I suggest emailing him and offering him $100 or $200 that he can keep with no problem if he returns the rest, that by keeping it he may be engaging in theft, but you're willing to offer a reward for him cooperating with you rather than being charged with theft.


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2011)

PJ - I offered him a reward and he responded with the email that I posted.

He actively accepted the money within the first 24 hours it was in his acct., making it impossible for me to pull it back.  He didn't just leave it there untouched - preventing me from canceling the payment.


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## antjmar (Jul 14, 2011)

glypnirsgirl said:


> Denise - You are in California. It is a CRIME for someone to keep the funds that do not belong to him.
> 
> It has been sufficient time for an honest person to have returned the money. With this delay, I believe that he is dishonest. It is time to call the police and make a complaint.
> 
> ...


I agree maybe he will get scared if the PD call him or pay him a visit.
 Good luck to you.


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## Talent312 (Jul 14, 2011)

I would set a time by which this matter must be "resolved" or, regretfully,  you will have no choice but to make a complaint for theft to the "authorities."


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## ace2000 (Jul 14, 2011)

antjmar said:


> I agree maybe he will get scared if the PD call him or pay him a visit.
> Good luck to you.


 
Sad to say... but the Police rarely get involved in this type of stuff.


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## janej (Jul 14, 2011)

Denise,

Do you know if Paypal could at least provide you with the address and physical identity of the person?   Once you have the physical address, you can go after him in other ways.  I am not sure if Paypal could do that without violating their privacy agreement.  They might require you to show a court order.  

We once had a tenant taking off with extensive damage to our condo.  She actually works for the federal government and moved to a different state.  We had her SSN, but not her address.   We could not file a case against her in the court without her new address.  We went to to post office asking if we could have the forwarding address.  We were told we need a court order.  We gave up and took the loss.

Amazon has a pretty good dispute system for their market place sellers.   They always give you a deadline to respond.  I had two claims against me both filed after 30 days of transaction.  The buyers never wrote back after I responded.  So I won both cases.   I wonder if Paypal has any policy like that.  They almost have to.  They certainly can't act only based on your word, but if the other party never respond, they still should move the case forward at some point.  

Good luck,

Jane


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## ada903 (Jul 14, 2011)

That was my suggestion above too.  It seems logical to me that Paypal would owe you contact info for this person, since you have transacted with them and sent them money.  If you can find out where they live, who they are, you can make their life miserable enough to not be worth $1,200.  Including things like contacting their boss at work, etc.


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## am1 (Jul 14, 2011)

Paypal will not just give out contact info of someone you have sent money to.  If that was the case I could send money to anyone then get their contact info.  It would be another way to scam and stalk people.


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## ampaholic (Jul 14, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Jim - He's had the money for 18 days, and he was contacted by PP and me, 16 days ago, and multiple times since then.  There is also a notice IN his Paypal Acct.  He could return it with 2 little clicks.



*OMG *- if someone (anyone) had stolen $1200 of MY money and had it for even 3 days I would be _*HOUNDING *_the AG, the Secret Service, the FBI, the SFPD, The Highway Patrol and 18 other people from PayPal's CEO to the ISP provider for this thief.

The law is quite clear - how could this guy even attempt to tell the authorities "oh, I thought I could keep it"

I bet he thinks it like the community chest card "bank makes $200 error in your favor"

I bet you dollars to donuts one call that starts "This is Agent Roberts with the Secret Service .... " will _*wake him right up*_


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## pjrose (Jul 14, 2011)

See post 19 for another creep like yours:
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1141024&posted=1#post1141024


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## DeniseM (Jul 14, 2011)

ampaholic said:


> *OMG *- if someone (anyone) had stolen $1200 of MY money and had it for even 3 days I would be _*HOUNDING *_the AG, the Secret Service, the FBI, the SFPD, The Highway Patrol and 18 other people from PayPal's CEO to the ISP provider for this thief.



I was waiting for Paypal to make their decision on the dispute - they took 2 weeks.  I knew he didn't respond to any of their calls or emails, so I (foolishly) assumed PP would decide in my favor.  They didn't, and that was when I posted on on TUG, and went to Plan B.


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## ampaholic (Jul 15, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> I was waiting for Paypal to make their decision on the dispute - they took 2 weeks.  I knew he didn't respond to any of their calls or emails, so I (foolishly) assumed PP would decide in my favor.  They didn't, and that was when I posted on on TUG, and went to Plan B.



That's understandable that you would hope PayPal would come thru.

I hope "plan B" includes hounding the authorities into action - with those types the squeaky wheel gets the love.

Please keep us all informed.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 15, 2011)

ampaholic said:


> That's understandable that you would hope PayPal would come thru.
> 
> I hope "plan B" includes hounding the authorities into action - with those types the squeaky wheel gets the love.
> 
> Please keep us all informed.



There will be no authorities.   First thing that has to happen is Denise needs to find the address of the person who has her money.  At this point, only their ISP and Paypal have this information.  A subpoena is required.  I would google to see if I could find the process and paperwork for filing her own subpoena.  An attorney can do it, but then we are talking serious money.

Then, I would write a letter signed by an attorney threatening a small claims court lawsuit.  If you don't get a response, then sue them in small claims court and have someone serve the subpoena on a Sunday night.

This will work.


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## MuranoJo (Jul 15, 2011)

Denise,
Oh, Crap, so much misery for a typo.  Sheesh.
I wish you the best.  I've twice gone through pure hell with problems on PayPal (not the same as yours, but by using the wrong credit card).


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## ampaholic (Jul 15, 2011)

*beg to differ*



BocaBum99 said:


> There will be no authorities.



There will be no authorities *only if they aren't called* - I doubt they read TUG

The CHP, FBI, and Secret Service simply *LOVE* eBay and PayPal crime (chasing it down that is).


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 15, 2011)

ampaholic said:


> There will be no authorities *only if they aren't called* - I doubt they read TUG
> 
> The CHP, FBI, and Secret Service simply *LOVE* eBay and PayPal crime (chasing it down that is).



Why don't you help Denise make some calls and share the results here.


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## easyrider (Jul 15, 2011)

I think Boca Bum is right. If the issue is pressed it could end up in court. 

IMO, it would be too much effort and cost to find and prosecute this guy. 

Like I found out last month with my trespasser, being right is not enough to prevent you from getting screwed.


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## ampaholic (Jul 15, 2011)

Message deleted by moderator. 

Dave M


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## Sandi Bo (Jul 15, 2011)

Personally, I would not give this person any more time. He's had your money way too long already. Several posters have given some good legal info from their states, including California where you live.   If this were me... I would research exactly what Paypal's policy is on obtaining this person's personal info.  Without spending any additional money, yet, I would then craft a very informational/professional email to this person.  It would state how I was going to obtain his person information.  I would state the Caliornia law that someone posted above.  I would let him know he has 24 hours to respond or you are going to take action to 1) obtain his personal info and 2) prosecute him.   Let him know you mean business, presented with the facts, maybe he'll reconsider returning your money (include how he can return it via Paypal in the email as well). I'd be livid (as I'm sure you are), if I had to spend $1200 to get my $1200 back I would, just for the principle of the matter. (And hopefully not end up out $2400).


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## sjuhawk_jd (Jul 15, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> No - I send that info in a separate email



In my opinion, lack of any note with that payment also reduces the chance of any legal claim against this "jerk" for taking posession of lost/misplaced property. All he has to do is to say that Denise borrowed that money in cash from him and now she just returned it back through personal transaction.


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## glypnirsgirl (Jul 15, 2011)

PayPal is headquartered in San Jose, CA. If the CA authorities will not assist you, you can bring suit against John Doe and PayPal in order to obtain the information on "John Doe." 

PayPal has a duty to disclose this information to legal authorities or in response to discovery procedures. 

I did a preliminary search on lost and mislaid property statutes and found that these laws go back to Hadrian's law. There is a long history of statutes regarding the necessity to return property that has been lost or mislaid UNLESS it is found to be "treasure." And even in the few cases that I read where "treasure" was used as a defense, the property was restored to the owner. 

elaine


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## DeniseM (Jul 15, 2011)

Update - I emailed the person who has my money, and informed him that I have consulted with an attorney and they advised me to file a complaint against him with the local police.  (This it true - I did.)  I gave him 24 hours to return the funds before I took that action.

The email I received back from him was laced with profanity, which shed a little more light on this person's character.

Today, I received an email from PP saying that the person had finally contacted them, so it appears that I at least shook him up a little.  However, he told PP that he thought it was a scam.  He also told PP that he is having his attorney review the situation.  

I don't know if any of this is true, or if his is just scheming to keep the money, or if he is just not the sharpest tool in the shed.  Any attorney would advise him that he must return the funds, so I don't believe he's actually talked to an attorney.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 15, 2011)

> or if he is just not the sharpest tool in the shed.


Using profanity definitely makes him look ignorant.  

I think he wants to keep the money.  Paypal is telling him it's not a scam, it was a simple mistake, and he is still trying to figure out how to keep the windfall.  He is the scammer, and he needs to know it.  He is a thief!


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## ampaholic (Jul 15, 2011)

Likely I'm preaching to the choir - but be sure to keep a copy of his email - it is part of the "case" you may need to make with authorities.


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## DeniseM (Jul 15, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Using profanity definitely makes him look ignorant.
> 
> I think he wants to keep the money.  Paypal is telling him it's not a scam, it was a simple mistake, and he is still trying to figure out how to keep the windfall.  He is the scammer, and he needs to know it.  He is a thief!



I agree - an honest person would not have "accepted" the money, thereby blocking me from canceling the payment.  For those who don't use Paypal, when you are sent a personal payment, you have to click a link to actively accept it - once you do that, the sender can no longer cancel the payment.  It means that he made a conscious choice to keep the money.


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## e.bram (Jul 15, 2011)

Maybe he(she) considers it a "gift"(from a clandestine admired)    HE(she) considered it a gift(maybe it was his birthday) and spent it and now doesn't have it to return. 
Above would be a good defense for any criminal or civil legal complaint.


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## DeniseM (Jul 15, 2011)

e.bram said:


> Maybe he(she) considers it a "gift".



Except, he has received multiple emails and calls from Paypal informing him that the money was sent to his account in error.


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## bogey21 (Jul 15, 2011)

I have learned a lot from this escapade.  One thing I know for sure is that I will never send money to anyone as a "Personal Transfer of Funds".  Never!!

George


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## heathpack (Jul 15, 2011)

Denise, I think the profanity-laced email tells you the kind of person you are dealing with.  He likely does not have a personal or professional lawyer to consult.  ABSOLUTELY, if he does not resolve the matter within your 24 hour time limit, proceed as Elaine suggested.  Don't let this guy continue to drag things out.

I hope the police take this seriously.  Do you know any police officers?  Our boat neighbor was a police officer, he was of great help in telling us what to say to actually make the police come back when we lived in Hollywood and had a real problem with drunk drivers crashing on the curve in front of our house.  It was very helpful to know who to call and what to say.

Good luck.

H


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## DeniseM (Jul 15, 2011)

I don't really know anyone except our campus police officer at school, and I won't see him for another month.


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## e.bram (Jul 15, 2011)

Maybe he(she)considered it a gift for his birthday or other occasion( from a clandestine admirer) and he spent the money and doesn't have it to return.
This would be good defense for any criminal or civil action. After all, the gift was unsolicited.


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## ampaholic (Jul 15, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> I don't really know anyone except our campus police officer at school, and I won't see him for another month.



Not seeing him would not keep you from mentioning his name when you call the local authorities - "I pretty sure officer XYZ would want me to contact you about my being ripped off for $1200"

Police are people too - finding one who cares as much as you do about getting your money back may take "interviewing" a few.

If your purse had been snatched in front of the police station with $1200 in it - how would they respond? 

This guy (I'll bet it's a guy) is just as guilty as a purse snatcher.


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## ace2000 (Jul 15, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> I don't know if any of this is true, or if his is just scheming to keep the money, or if he is just not the sharpest tool in the shed.  Any attorney would advise him that he must return the funds, so I don't believe he's actually talked to an attorney.


 
All speculation... but, I'm willing to bet that he's trying very hard to keep the money by any means that he feels that he can get away with... or he may be stalling for time, because he's already spent the windfall and needs time to catch up financially.  Good luck and thanks for keeping us updated...


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## ace2000 (Jul 15, 2011)

ace2000 said:


> All speculation... but, I'm willing to bet that he's trying very hard to keep the money by any means that he feels that he can get away with... or he may be stalling for time, because he's already spent the windfall and needs time to catch up financially.  Good luck and thanks for keeping us updated...


 
The question is going to be how much time are you going to allow him to go down the 'working with my attorney' path?  He could be playing that one for awhile... the sad fact is that probably 75% of the population would have returned the money by now.  You got unlucky you sent it to this jerk.

Just tell him that you're a TUG VIP and that may frighten him into action...  :hysterical:


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## Ridewithme38 (Jul 15, 2011)

ampaholic said:


> This guy (I'll bet it's a guy) is just as guilty as a purse snatcher.



The kevin/keith thing kinda gave it away as a guy...But if that wasn't...i would have definantly assumed it was a women...the whole, computer scam thing, even after paypal has contacted him and denise privately, shows less experience online...men tend to have ALOT of online experience(We work/live/spend 'private time' on these things), not that women don't...but if you ask 10 men and 10 women common computer questions, 7 women will get it right and 9 men....

not to mention the fact that there is always a shoe sale to spend that $1200 on online...

Why would you have bet it was a guy?


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## DeniseM (Jul 15, 2011)

I know it's a guy - because PP called him "he."

Ride - the way you stereotype people is astounding...and insulting.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 15, 2011)

*Totally off-topic!*

I had a professor at college who named her daughter Kevin.  This was specifically so her daughter would not automatically be pigeon-holed as a woman when applying for a job.  

It's a great idea, because there are people like Ride.  Just kidding, because I think you were also kidding.

Kevin is a Gaelic girl's name, so still "appropriate," if there is such a thing as inappropriate names.


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## Pat H (Jul 15, 2011)

e.bram said:


> Maybe he(she)considered it a gift for his birthday or other occasion( from a clandestine admirer) and he spent the money and doesn't have it to return.
> This would be good defense for any criminal or civil action. After all, the gift was unsolicited.



That's ridiculous. It would not be a good defense at all. The lowlife would have to show some kind of proof of his defense and he has none.


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## jkkee (Jul 15, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Ride - the way you stereotype people is astounding...and insulting.



Totally insulting.  I'm female, have been working in the computer industry for a long time, for many years as a software developer, and more recently as a computer security analyst with a large company.  Maybe 15+ years ago I would have agreed with you as I was often one of only 2 or 3 females working in my area, but now, while still not the majority, I see many women working in this field.  And I'm just talking about people whose livelihood is with computers.  When you move on to people who use computers just in their daily lives I'd have to guess it's much more on par.  And in my household it's my husband who is more concerned with computer scams etc - and he works in the same line of work as I do, so it isn't just not knowing computers that makes him feel that way.

Denise, I hope your able to get this resolved soon.  What a horrible thing to have happened, and to have sent it to someone who apparently has no conscience makes it worse:-(


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## pjrose (Jul 15, 2011)

I agree about the insulting sexist post  

Re the purse-snatching analogy, I'm thinking purse-finding.  He found it, found the money in it, and kept it even after soon learning who it belonged to and how to return it.

The profanity says a lot.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 15, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> The kevin/keith thing kinda gave it away as a guy. ...


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## Ridewithme38 (Jul 15, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I had a professor at college who named her daughter Kevin.  This was specifically so her daughter would not automatically be pigeon-holed as a woman when applying for a job.
> 
> It's a great idea, because there are people like Ride.  Just kidding, because I think you were also kidding.
> 
> Kevin is a Gaelic girl's name, so still "appropriate," if there is such a thing as inappropriate names.



My daughters name is Kayden, her mothers irish and thought it was a cute name...I've seen it used as both a boys or a girls name...IMO the spelling differentiates the name from the boys names like Caden...but at my age, i still turn around worried my little one has gotten in trouble when i hear a parent yelling at their kids named Braydon or Hayden

BTW: When i make stereotypical posts like i did above...most of the time, its me responding to something i believe was an unfair attack on a man, with an equally rediculous statement...Fact is...beyond what Denise said about it being a guy...there is NOTHING that shows it was any more likely to be a man then a women in this case...


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## ace2000 (Jul 15, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> BTW: When i make stereotypical posts like i did above...most of the time, its me responding to something i believe was an unfair attack on a man, with an equally rediculous statement...Fact is...beyond what Denise said about it being a guy...there is NOTHING that shows it was any more likely to be a man then a women in this case...


 
LOL - Ride working on his backstroke technique!


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## e.bram (Jul 15, 2011)

[e.bram - if you want to give Ride relationship advice - please send him a PM. - DeniseM]

Sorry: your right.


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## pjrose (Jul 15, 2011)

C'mon peeps, play nice.  Ride was kinda sexist/sarcastic maybe joking, we've reacted, but let's not get a good thread closed by shooting back.


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## Margariet (Jul 15, 2011)

I don't know whether it is of any use for you since I live in another country with non-American law but I 've checked how it works over here. The bank or Paypal is not responsible for your mistake. However the person who receives by accident your money is not entitled to keep it but has to return it when he is asked to do so. It's not his money and you have proof that you paid the wrong one and did not receive anything in return. If he doesn't pay you back immediately you cannot go to court in my country because the amount is too low. However we use debt collectors - which I'm sure you have in the US - who go to collect the money from the debtor and who can confiscate his belongings and accounts to collect your money. Don't pay the person anything, that's ridiculous. make it into a legal case with anattorney - if you have one. No way he is allowed to keep it! If he doesn't cooperate I would simply publish all his personal info and all his e-mails online, on this website and on others, to show he's a criminal.


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## easyrider (Jul 15, 2011)

The thing I notice about people in general, is that many are willing to take advantage of other people when they can. Especially if they can remain anonymous.

The thing I notice about rules/laws is that it cost money to go after those who take advantage.


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## Larry6417 (Jul 15, 2011)

Denise, thank you for sharing your story. A while ago, I "unverified" my PayPal account so that it's linked to a credit card only. Your story reinforces that it was the right decision. I browsed the link to "PayPal sucks" up thread. It seems apparent that PP cares nothing about customer service. Unfortunately, PP and the scammer will have to be forced to do the right thing.


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## kaio (Jul 15, 2011)

My roomate in College once Sold a PS3 on ebay after they came out, he received an email from what he thought was paypal stating "you got money", so he shipped the PS3 out [to nigeria~ HAH!]... only later to find out that the email he received was a fake email and his paypal account never actually received money.  He was not the most intelligent seller and I suppose a Newbie, but lost the PS3 and never got money.  I was living abroad at the time and found out this happened to him when I returned, but with that little off topic PP horror story, I really hope you get your money back Denise, I see no way why you wouldn't... many people make mistakes in the email address when sending money via paypal, so this should be a common case for paypal.  I would fight it to the death until you get your $1200 back... which it sounds like you are doing.. so good job getting an attorney involved... the guy who is refusing to refund the money indeed sounds like an arrogant jerk and karma will hit him sooner hopefully than later.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 15, 2011)

Larry6417 said:


> Denise, thank you for sharing your story. A while ago, I "unverified" my PayPal account so that it's linked to a credit card only. Your story reinforces that it was the right decision. I browsed the link to "PayPal sucks" up thread. It seems apparent that PP cares nothing about customer service. Unfortunately, PP and the scammer will have to be forced to do the right thing.



The problem is not Paypal.   They are being unfairly attacked by the OP and by others on this thread.  The problem is that Denise used a personal transfer to the wrong email address.  That is her fault, not Paypal's.  When doing a personal transfer of funds, Paypal is not accountable for disputes in such a transaction.

The problem is with the transferee who is not sending the money back.

Paypal is going above and beyond their required response at this time.

What Paypal ought to do is put a warning message up after someone sends a personal transaction.  They should also say that they will charge $50/hour for any research provided to help out members with issues in such transactions.  This way, they will know the risk and act accordingly.


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## pjrose (Jul 15, 2011)

Larry6417 said:


> Denise, thank you for sharing your story. A while ago, I "unverified" my PayPal account so that it's linked to a credit card only. Your story reinforces that it was the right decision. I browsed the link to "PayPal sucks" up thread. It seems apparent that PP cares nothing about customer service. Unfortunately, PP and the scammer will have to be forced to do the right thing.



How does unverifying the PP account make it safer?  Because they can't pull from your bank account? Or ???


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## Conan (Jul 15, 2011)

ace2000 said:


> Sad to say... but the Police rarely get involved in this type of stuff.


 
The one time I had a problem with an Ebay seller (in a neighboring state) my local police were very helpful. 

I had bought a timeshare week on Ebay, and after cashing my check the private seller started ignoring my emails. I had her name and address but no phone number. I went to the police station and the officer listened to my story and then went to another room. On returning, he explained that he was able to access the phone number of the seller's father who lived in the same town, he'd called the father, and the father told the officer that while his daughter was having a difficult time, having recently divorced, he would talk to her and make sure she responded.

Hours later I had a somewhat sulky email from the daughter, and a few days later I got my deed.


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## ace2000 (Jul 15, 2011)

Conan said:


> The one time I had a problem with an Ebay seller (in a neighboring state) my local police were very helpful.
> 
> I had bought a timeshare week on Ebay, and after cashing my check the private seller started ignoring my emails. I had her name and address but no phone number. I went to the police station and the officer listened to my story and then went to another room. On returning, he explained that he was able to access the phone number of the seller's father who lived in the same town, he'd called the father, and the father told the officer that while his daughter was having a difficult time, having recently divorced, he would talk to her and make sure she responded.
> 
> Hours later I had a somewhat sulky email from the daughter, and a few days later I got my deed.


 
Conan, this sounds like an exception to the norm.  I'll share my story...  I had some fraudulent charges on my credit card a few years ago.  My card number was used to pay for cable service to Verizon in Kansas City.  Now, you would think that would be fairly easy to track down...  I called the police and they wanted nothing to do with it.  It was handled through my credit card company however.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 15, 2011)

Conan said:


> The one time I had a problem with an Ebay seller (in a neighboring state) my local police were very helpful.
> 
> I had bought a timeshare week on Ebay, and after cashing my check the private seller started ignoring my emails. I had her name and address but no phone number. I went to the police station and the officer listened to my story and then went to another room. On returning, he explained that he was able to access the phone number of the seller's father who lived in the same town, he'd called the father, and the father told the officer that while his daughter was having a difficult time, having recently divorced, he would talk to her and make sure she responded.
> 
> Hours later I had a somewhat sulky email from the daughter, and a few days later I got my deed.



You could have done that yourself with one reverse look up on the internet.  He basically opened the virtual phone book and gave you the phone number you could have found on your own.  He was indeed being helpful.  However, if he ran into anything that crossed the bounds of his jurisdiction, he would have stopped.  Guaranteed.

In this case, Denise does not have the address or phone number for the person in question.  To get that information, the ISP or Paypal needs to give it to Denise.  They will not do it unless they have a subpoena to do so.  I am sorry, but no local police, the FBI or any so-called "authority" is going to do that for Denise.  There has to be a crime and jurisdiction.  At this time, she cannot establish jurisdiction and neither can any of the authorities.  She can do it herself or have an attorney do it.   If the person with her money doesn't voluntarily give it back, I am afraid that legal action is her only recourse.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Jul 15, 2011)

I forgot, there is another way.  That is for someone to contact eBay on Denise's behalf and browbeat someone into giving up the telephone number.  However, that person would probably be fired for violating company policy for privacy protection of members.  If someone from Paypal gave up my personal information, that's the result I would want.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 15, 2011)

pjrose said:


> How does unverifying the PP account make it safer?  Because they can't pull from your bank account? Or ???



Because then all payments are made to the credit card.  If there is a problem with a transaction, then the account owner can dispute the charge with the credit card company.


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## e.bram (Jul 15, 2011)

Boca is right. It is wrong to use a courtesy service(no fee) and blame the service for your own mistake. PP has no knowledge of the situation away from one side (The OP). They cannot act as a judge and jury(neither can the police). That is what the courts are for.

No question, according to the OP's description of the events the receiver is a scumbag.


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## PigsDad (Jul 15, 2011)

Ok, I'm trying to put myself in this guy's shoes again.  He is probably hoping that by ignoring the requests to return the money, Denise will eventually give up and decide it is not worth it.  He might be thinking that in the worst case, he will eventually have to give back the $1200 and that would be the end of it (from his actions up to this point, he is "not the sharpest tool in the shed" as someone else noted).

How about this -- let him know that if you have to proceed further, it will cost him a lot more than just returning the $1200.  If you get to the point of small claims, you would certainly be able to go after him for the $1200 _plus _any attorney fees, etc.  Letting him know that, it just might light a fire under his ass and return the money.

Just a thought...

Kurt


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## Patri (Jul 15, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> Because then all payments are made to the credit card.  If there is a problem with a transaction, then the account owner can dispute the charge with the credit card company.



I've not been comfortable with PP having access to my bank account either. I believe I'll go unverified too. I don't use PP much anymore, but can explain to any buyer/seller that a cc protects both of us better.


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## stevedmatt (Jul 15, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> Because then all payments are made to the credit card.  If there is a problem with a transaction, then the account owner can dispute the charge with the credit card company.



But be careful with this concept. I had a credit card company refuse my dispute  on an ebay purchase and paypal payment stating they do not handle disputes when a 3rd party was used for payment. The item I received that was advertised as new came without the original box and never worked.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 15, 2011)

stevedmatt said:


> But be careful with this concept. I had a credit card company refuse my dispute  on an ebay purchase and paypal payment stating they do not handle disputes when a 3rd party was used for payment. The item I received that was advertised as new came without the original box and never worked.



I agree that this area is gray.  It depends on the credit card company what they will do.

There are many alternate payment companies sprouting up all over.  People should consider them.  My bank, Chase, has it's own email payment service.  I prefer paypal because I do a lot of business with them and have only had minor issues.

I am very familiar with Denise's situation because it happened to me once.  I was dealing with someone I knew and tried to send them a personal payment.  I sent it directly to his email which I copied and pasted into paypal.  It turns out that he does not own the paypal account which is tied to his email address.  It was a joint account held by his fiancee and him who have since broken up.  I did send an email to the ex-fiancee and she sent me back the money right away.  It was at that time that I learned the real risks and limits of recourse of such transactions.  I really do think that Paypal should put a warning label after someone tries to submit such a transaction.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 15, 2011)

Patri said:


> I've not been comfortable with PP having access to my bank account either. I believe I'll go unverified too. I don't use PP much anymore, but can explain to any buyer/seller that a cc protects both of us better.



I've done thousands and thousands of transactions with Paypal.  As long as you understand what you are doing on all transaction types, it is a great service.


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## am1 (Jul 15, 2011)

Are you even sure it is a US paypal account?  There are a not of unknowns where that need to answered before anything else can happen.  I have used personal transfers with great success.  Both sending and receiving.  Paypal should cough up the money as I am sure they will make back the $1200 on this incident.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 15, 2011)

am1 said:


> Are you even sure it is a US paypal account?  There are a not of unknowns where that need to answered before anything else can happen.  I have used personal transfers with great success.  Both sending and receiving.  Paypal should cough up the money as I am sure they will make back the $1200 on this incident.



You think paypal will cough up $1200 on this?  If they can't retrieve it, I believe they won't.


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## Larry6417 (Jul 15, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> The problem is not Paypal.   They are being unfairly attacked by the OP and by others on this thread.  The problem is that Denise used a personal transfer to the wrong email address.  That is her fault, not Paypal's.  When doing a personal transfer of funds, Paypal is not accountable for disputes in such a transaction.
> 
> The problem is with the transferee who is not sending the money back.
> 
> ...



We're going to have to agree to disagree. Sending the payment to the wrong email address is definitely *NOT* PayPal's fault, but...doing so is a common occurrence. PayPal's reaction after receiving Denise's complaint was sub-standard. 

No, PayPal may not be legally obligated to act as judge and jury, but that's not the question. The question is: did Denise receive good service after the complaint? The answer is absolutely "no."


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## ace2000 (Jul 15, 2011)

Larry6417 said:


> We're going to have to agree to disagree. Sending the payment to the wrong email address is definitely *NOT* PayPal's fault, but...doing so is a common occurrence. PayPal's reaction after receiving Denise's complaint was sub-standard.
> 
> No, PayPal may not be legally obligated to act as judge and jury, but that's not the question. The question is: did Denise receive good service after the complaint? The answer is absolutely "no."


 
Larry,  

Denise mentioned that Paypal tried to contact the guy several times, and eventually got a hold of him.  What more did you expect them to do?  Just fork over the $1200?  Then would you be happy with their customer service?  The problem is that they have no obligation to do that.


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## Larry6417 (Jul 15, 2011)

ace2000 said:


> Larry,
> 
> Denise mentioned that Paypal tried to contact the guy several times, and eventually got a hold of him.  What more did you expect them to do?  Just fork over the $1200?  Then would you be happy with their customer service?  The problem is that they have no obligation to do that.



Actually, Denise mentioned that PayPal denied the claim initially because the scammer couldn't be contacted. How about labelling a case "unresolved" or "open" if there isn't enough information available? Also, now that PayPal has contacted the recipient it knows that the payment was sent in error. The recipient claims he thought it was an attempt to scam him! 

PayPal has a history of poor customer service. One of the executives at PP admitted that the phone # was hidden to decrease the number of calls. Does that sound like an organization committed to good service?

I don't define good service as simply handing over $1200 without reason, but how about *after* the recipient says it wasn't for a service or personal payment?

Addendum: A while ago PayPal lowered the time available to launch a dispute over an eBay transaction. I emailed them because I buy timeshares on eBay, and the transaction often takes longer than the allotted time. PayPal's response? No response at all.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 15, 2011)

I guess I'm with Boca here.  This seems to me to be much the same as if I were to do an EFT payment to someone, but I give the bank the wrong routing number for the account that is to receive the payment.  The bank makes the payment, but I then discover that I gave the bank the wrong routing number.

Now I go back to the bank for help because I gave them the wrong number.

*****

I think if I were the bank, I would probably listen politely and might offer to correspond with the recipient about the mistake.  But I don't think I can do much more than that.  And I think it's untenable to expect me, as a banker, to decide on my own to debit from Person A's account in favor of Person B's account because Person B thinks I should, no matter how compelling Person B's argument.  Because assessing the legitimacy of such a claim is a matter for the legal system, not the banking system.


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## am1 (Jul 15, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> You think paypal will cough up $1200 on this?  If they can't retrieve it, I believe they won't.



Paypal would be hesitant to refund $20 if it would resolve the issue.  I am sure they will make more than the $1200 in increased fees now that people are aware about the downside of not paying the 3%.


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## ace2000 (Jul 15, 2011)

Larry6417 said:


> I don't define good service as simply handing over $1200 without reason, but how about *after* the recipient says it wasn't for a service or personal payment?


 
I think the terms of agreement between Denise and Paypal will trump what you believe should have happened...   

I doubt they're going to willingly hand over $1200 in a case like this, but maybe that's just me.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 15, 2011)

ace2000 said:


> I think the terms of agreement between Denise and Paypal will trump what you believe should have happened...
> 
> I doubt they're going to willingly hand over $1200 in a case like this, but maybe that's just me.


I agree.  They routed the money precisely as they were instructed to. They did not make the mistake; Denise did.  They might assist with problem resolution, but since they're bankers, not insurers, they're not going to put themselves in the situation of compensating people for those people's own mistakes.  

Whatever they do will be bound by whatever the applicable dispute resolution provisions are in the terms of agreement, and that's it.


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## Larry6417 (Jul 15, 2011)

ace2000 said:


> I think the terms of agreement between Denise and Paypal will trump what you believe should have happened...
> 
> I doubt they're going to willingly hand over $1200 in a case like this, but maybe that's just me.



I'm not disagreeing with you.   PayPal won't do anything unless it's forced to. I don't doubt that at all. I also don't doubt that PP's lawyers have crafted its service agreement to give itself outs. However, I would note that, unlike a bank, PayPal has promoted its services with claims of "dispute resolution" as part of its overall package. Again, I'm not saying that PayPal is legally obligated to give Denise $1200. I'm saying that its service, esp. its so-called "dispute resolution," is all sizzle, no steak.


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## bogey21 (Jul 15, 2011)

Larry6417 said:


> Sending the payment to the wrong email address is definitely *NOT* PayPal's fault, but...doing so is a common occurrence.



"a common occurrence".  Really?

George


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## Larry6417 (Jul 15, 2011)

bogey21 said:


> "a common occurrence".  Really?
> 
> George



You caught me!  I should have said that it's bound to happen at least sometimes with the number of transactions made.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 15, 2011)

Larry6417 said:


> I'm saying that its service, esp. its so-called "dispute resolution," is all sizzle, no steak.


But no matter what you might think about Paypal's "dispute resolution" procedures, they were not crafted or intended to deal with situations where payment was sent to the wrong account; they're designed for situations where there is a dispute between two parties where there is an acknowledged relationship.  For other transactions they're pretty much nothing but a money transfer service.

Trying to fault Paypal's dispute resolution in the current circumstance is a bit like complaining that you've got a crummy blender because when you tried to puree t-bone steaks in your blender the blades got hung up on the bones.

That doesn't say anything about whether or not the blender is a good blender.


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## Larry6417 (Jul 15, 2011)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I agree.  They routed the money precisely as they were instructed to. They did not make the mistake; Denise did.  They might assist with problem resolution, but since they're bankers...



Actually, PayPal is *NOT* a bank. PayPal's executives specifically state that the company is not a bank because it does not perform fractional reserve banking; it's a payment system only. If I were a cynical person, I might think that PayPal wanted to avoid the strictures placed on a bank.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 15, 2011)

Larry6417 said:


> You caught me!  I should have said that it's bound to happen at least sometimes with the number of transactions made.



Just as with Western Union it's inevitable that sometimes a transfer will be made to the wrong person.  Or with a bank, that cashiers check will be delivered to the wrong person. Or a USPS Money Order will be sent to the wrong party.

What are the "dispute resolution" policies for those organizations when that happens?


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 15, 2011)

Larry6417 said:


> Actually, PayPal is *NOT* a bank. PayPal's executives specifically state that the company is not a bank because it does not perform fractional reserve banking; it's a payment system only. If I were a cynical person, I might think that PayPal wanted to avoid the strictures placed on a bank.


You're correct.  They're a money transfer service, like Western Union. Describing them as bankers was careless on my part.

In any case, it's still inappropriate for them to decide that someone is not legally entitled to money that is in that person's account, and then attempt to recover that money on behalf of someone else who does claim to be legally entitled to that money.


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## Passepartout (Jul 15, 2011)

Sadly, but true. I think this thread is mis-titled. PayPal only did what Denise told them to do. The fact that the funds were sent to the wrong party is not PayPal's problem. They seem to have done what they can to help Denise rectify the mistake, but in the end, it comes down to the mistaken recipient returning what isn't his, and that may be largely voluntary. Feel free to be angry with PayPal, but the anger is directed at the wrong target.

Perhaps with PayPal's insistence that the guy's windfall was a mistake, he might be shamed into returning it, but after his profanity laced retort, and already calling Denise a scammer (while we all know who the REAL scammer is), I wouldn't bet the farm on the return of the funds.

Still hoping it works out....

Jim


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## DeniseM (Jul 15, 2011)

Update:  I got this email from the person with my money today:



> Your money has been sent back. Not because of your useless threat but because I am a nice person.
> 
> Unlike yourself who has been very rude!



Nice person - right!  :hysterical: 

Bad news - he hasn't sent the money.
Good news - it's still sitting in his Acct.

So I called Paypal again, and they are going to contact him again, and offer help with the refund.


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## Larry6417 (Jul 15, 2011)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> But no matter what you might think about Paypal's "dispute resolution" procedures, they were not crafted or intended to deal with situations where payment was sent to the wrong account; they're designed for situations where there is a dispute between two parties where there is an acknowledged relationship.  For other transactions they're pretty much nothing but a money transfer service.
> 
> Trying to fault Paypal's dispute resolution in the current circumstance is a bit like complaining that you've got a crummy blender because when you tried to puree t-bone steaks in your blender the blades got hung up on the bones.
> 
> That doesn't say anything about whether or not the blender is a good blender.



I look at the situation this way: does anyone here think that this is the first time that payment has been sent to the wrong person? Or the hundredth time? Or the thousandth? I don't doubt that PayPal's dispute resolution wasn't set up for this situation, but does a smart, service-oriented company ignore this sort of problem? 

At minimum, PayPal is not a smart organization for failing to have procedures for a situation like this.


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## Larry6417 (Jul 15, 2011)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Just as with Western Union it's inevitable that sometimes a transfer will be made to the wrong person.  Or with a bank, that cashiers check will be delivered to the wrong person. Or a USPS Money Order will be sent to the wrong party.
> 
> What are the "dispute resolution" policies for those organizations when that happens?



Do those organizations promise "dispute resolution" as part of their services? If not, they are under no obligation to do so. PayPal *DOES* advertise "dispute resolution" as part of its services. If PayPal does a bad job of doing so, then it's perfectly fair to criticize them for poor service.

Anyways, I didn't mean to hijack Denise's thread. Congratulations on the refund (hopefully)!


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## DeniseM (Jul 15, 2011)

> Feel free to be angry with PayPal, but the anger is directed at the wrong target.



Jim - I was really mad at Paypal when I wrote the first post, because they denied my claim:  
1) without even talking to me, and 
2) sent me a canned response, with no explanation.  
That's what upset me.

I have been a faithful Paypal member for more than 10 years, and have paid them a LOT of money, so that really ticked me off!  I still think, that based on my long association with them, and the large amount of money, that they should have called me.

However, after I called them, they have indeed been very helpful.

If/when this is resolved, I will update my title.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 15, 2011)

Larry6417 said:


> I look at the situation this way: does anyone here think that this is the first time that payment has been sent to the wrong person? Or the hundredth time? Or the thousandth? I don't doubt that PayPal's dispute resolution wasn't set up for this situation, but does a smart, service-oriented company ignore this sort of problem?
> 
> At minimum, PayPal is not a smart organization for failing to have procedures for a situation like this.





Larry6417 said:


> Do those organizations promise "dispute resolution" as part of their services? If not, they are under no obligation to do so. PayPal *DOES* advertise "dispute resolution" as part of its services. If PayPal does a bad job of doing so, then it's perfectly fair to criticize them for poor service.



Clearly you should be using another payment transfer option that provides superior dispute resolution services.


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## Larry6417 (Jul 15, 2011)

*Huh?*



T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Clearly you should be using another payment transfer option that provides superior dispute resolution services.



What's your point? As I've stated previously, I DO use PayPal but linked to a credit card only. I use PayPal because it's convenient, but.. cross my finger when doing so. If PayPal offered payment services only, then it would be unfair to criticize them for poor dispute resolution practices. Because PP does promote its brand with promises of "dispute resolution" (and, presumably, charges fees for the same), then it's fair to criticize. 

Anyways, I've taken up enough of Denise's thread. We're all entitled to our own opinions, and I'll leave it at that.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 15, 2011)

Larry6417 said:


> We're going to have to agree to disagree. Sending the payment to the wrong email address is definitely *NOT* PayPal's fault, but...doing so is a common occurrence. PayPal's reaction after receiving Denise's complaint was sub-standard.
> 
> No, PayPal may not be legally obligated to act as judge and jury, but that's not the question. The question is: did Denise receive good service after the complaint? The answer is absolutely "no."



You are quite simply wrong.  Denise tried to be smart by sending a personal transaction to her contact to bypass the paypal fee to save $35.  Let's face it.  That's why she did it.  What she did was the same as putting cash in the mail and addressed it to the wrong place.  Now, she is trying to blame to the post office because she misaddressed it.  You can spin it any way you want, but this is the truth.  She failed to pay the $35, now that she made a mistake, you expect the service provider to provide the service?  Why don't you require Denise to pay the $35 service fee?

Had Denise sent the payment via the normal method, she could have easily disputed the charge online, froze the payment and gotten her money back.  That's the no spin truth.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 15, 2011)

Larry6417 said:


> What's your point? As I've stated previously, I DO use PayPal but linked to a credit card only. I use PayPal because it's convenient, but.. cross my finger when doing so. If PayPal offered payment services only, then it would be unfair to criticize them for poor dispute resolution practices. Because PP does promote its brand with promises of "dispute resolution" (and, presumably, charges fees for the same), then it's fair to criticize.
> 
> Anyways, I've taken up enough of Denise's thread. We're all entitled to our own opinions, and I'll leave it at that.



You are entitled to your opinion, but you should inform your decision a bit more with some additional facts which should change your opinion.

Do you know that you can send personal transactions for ZERO fee that are NOT protected by Paypal's dispute resolution program?  

You CANNOT use a credit card for such transactions because there are no fees paid to Paypal.  It is a value-added service that Paypal provides to clients for money in their Paypal account.


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## DeniseM (Jul 15, 2011)

Update:  I sent the gentleman a brief email telling him that the funds (that he claimed to return today) had not been transferred to my Acct. and asked him to check on it -  got this response:



> Here I am doing you a favor and you are now ordering me to do things? If I were u I wld be kissing my a**.



I have no idea what his game is....


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## eal (Jul 15, 2011)

That's no "gentleman"!


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## ada903 (Jul 15, 2011)

Save that response, and provide it to Paypal to show that he admitted he owes you the money back!


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## DeniseM (Jul 15, 2011)

eal said:


> That's no "gentleman"!



What do you mean???  He told me that he is a nice person and I'm rude!


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## DeniseM (Jul 15, 2011)

ada903 said:


> Save that response, and provide it to Paypal to show that he admitted he owes you the money back!



Paypal knows he owes me the money - but they won't reverse the payment - he has to do it.


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## RX8 (Jul 15, 2011)

Let's recap - this guy gets $1200 deposited to his account in error.  He knows it isn't his money but has yet to return it.  There is a question as to whether or not he will ever return it.  How is this much different than this story?

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-lazarus-20110712,0,1818706.column

For those that don't want to take the time to read the story, social security funds were deposited to the wrong bank account.  The lady who received the funds in error made no attempt to contact the bank or return the funds to the rightful owner and she was ARRESTED for grand theft, sentenced to 90 days in jail and ordered to pay restitution.  

If this guy doesn't pony up the money in a reasonable amount of time, contact the police.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 15, 2011)

This man is just digging in deeper.  Stubborn guy!  I wonder why he wants to drag this out.  IF he is going to give the money back, he needs to just do it and stop the game.  Otherwise, he looks like an ignorant thief.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 15, 2011)

Great post, RX8!


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## wackymother (Jul 15, 2011)

Boca or anyone who knows--where on the PayPal site would I find the explanations of a "personal" versus a "business" payment? I'm about to pay for the bulk of a rental, and I would like to be protected. This is what I found on PayPal's Products and Services page.


How Much Does It Cost to Send Money in the US?

Sending Money to Friends and Family in the US:

    * FREE when you use your bank account or PayPal balance.

      When you use a credit or debit card, the cost is 2.9% of the total amount sent plus $0.30 USD per transaction. You choose whether you or the recipient covers this cost.

Paying for a Product or Service:

    * FREE when you send money to a merchant to pay for something you bought.


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## DeniseM (Jul 15, 2011)

If I send a Paypal invoice to someone else, for them to pay me for a timeshare rental, Paypal charges  ME (the seller) 2.9% + 30¢, when I collect the payment.

So - roughly $29 on a $1,000 rental.


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## pjrose (Jul 16, 2011)

He's doing YOU a favor?  Huh?


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## Ken555 (Jul 16, 2011)

Denise,

It seems you've made great progress so far with the admission that the money is to be refunded to you. Unfortunately, the guy is not fit for polite society (or business) with his attitude. It's to his advantage for this to be taken care of quickly and for you to agree the money has been refunded successfully, or else he will continue to spend time on this matter (in a progressively damaging and time consuming progress). I doubt he seriously realizes the implications of non action. 

My suggestion is to take the high road, stay polite and cordial, explain that you have not received the funds and simply ask for him to check his account again, etc. Consistently polite is the best solution for you in my opinion. He likely didn't like receiving calls from PayPal and his "lawyer" probably told him to refund the money. If this continues without satisfaction, in addition to the other steps suggested earlier you might also ask for his lawyers contact info (and his own) so that you may stop interrupting his "busy schedule" and instead speak directly with his attorney (or have your attorney call his).

However, no matter how you look at it, you've made great progress by getting him to admit he doesn't have any right to the $1200 and that he intends to return it to you.


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## DeniseM (Jul 16, 2011)

Ken - I agree with you.  This guy is just digging a deeper and deeper hole - and doesn't seem to be aware of it.  Hopefully, we are close to the point where he will just want to get it over with.

If there is no payment by Monday, I am going to make a police report and sent him the phone number, officer's name, and case number for his enlightenment.


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## Talent312 (Jul 16, 2011)

What boggles my mind is that there is not a more effective system for catching simple keyboard errors. The other day, I was paying a bill online and for the CC#, where I meant to type: 8919, I typed 9020.

Once, I somehow managed to reverse the travel dates on our airline tickets. I had us returning from our destination before our arrival. I had to pay the change fee for each.

_Fortunately, the CC# was rejected, but what if I'd managed to get the exp. date right? [They didn't ask for the CC's security code.]_


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## Beaglemom3 (Jul 16, 2011)

Denise, I've been reading this thread and have been doing some digging of my own.

Suggestion: Contact your state's and the recipient's AG Offices of Consumer Affairs and let him know that you've done this. 

Also, I Googled your scenario and PayPal doesn't look helpful at all, but there are many cases such as yours that have been resolved satisfactorily for the sender.


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## Elan (Jul 16, 2011)

Although you may ultimately have the law on your side, he can drag this out until the point where he has to pay it back or be charged.  I'm not sure I'd be trying to make any points about reasonable behavior in exchange for possibly dragging this on.  Be polite and non-threatening, apologize for taking up his time, thank him for his cooperation, get your money back ASAP and move on.  He doesn't seem like the type of person you want to antagonize as long as he _thinks_ he has leverage, which is obviously the case.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 16, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Ken - I agree with you.  This guy is just digging a deeper and deeper hole - and doesn't seem to be aware of it.  Hopefully, we are close to the point where he will just want to get it over with.
> 
> If there is no payment by Monday, I am going to make a police report and sent him the phone number, officer's name, and case number for his enlightenment.



That's a good idea.  I doubt the police will do anything.  But, the detail should demonstrate that you are serious.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 16, 2011)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Denise, I've been reading this thread and have been doing some digging of my own.
> 
> Suggestion: Contact your state's and the recipient's AG Offices of Consumer Affairs and let him know that you've done this.
> 
> Also, I Googled your scenario and PayPal doesn't look helpful at all, but there are many cases such as yours that have been resolved satisfactorily for the sender.



Why do you think contacting the AG office will be helpful?


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## pittle (Jul 16, 2011)

I know how frustrating it is. We recently purchased an item on eBay and paid with PayPal.  The seller then contacted us and told us that his son had posted the item with the wrong description so what we thought we were purchasing was not what we actually bought.  He offered to refund our money and while payment was processed immediately, it took nearly a week before we could redeposit the refund into our bank from our PayPal account.  The PayPal account showed that the refund transaction had occurred, but the money was not available for us to use. 

The same thing seems to happen with CC charges and credits.  You buy something and it shows up today, but return it and it takes a week or more to get the credit.

Good luck!


----------



## Beaglemom3 (Jul 16, 2011)

Glad you asked.

I am often asked where to start with these types of complaints.  Denise is seeking remedy here and the AG's Office of Consumer Affairs is always a good place to seek guidance. If one's consumer protection complaint has merit, filing may help to bring PayPal to bear pressure on the erroneous recepient.

And as you posted to DeniseM above, "But, the detail should demonstrate that you are serious"  applies here as well.



Examples:

http://www.law.com/jsp/law/LawArticleFriendly.jsp?id=900005463928

http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/pressroom/2006_09/20060928.html

Addendum:  http://www.ehow.com/facts_7634618_paypal-state-regulations.html


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## e.bram (Jul 16, 2011)

The OP does not have entirely clean hands. The transaction was supposed to  be personal(a gift or present), when in fact it was a commercial transaction(exchange for good or services) to avoid certain fees. This could be construed as fraud. PP may have an AG complaint of it's own.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 16, 2011)

e.bram said:


> The OP does not have entirely clean hands. The transaction was supposed to  be personal(a gift or present), when in fact it was a commercial transaction(exchange for good or services) to avoid certain fees. This could be construed as fraud. PP may have an AG complaint of it's own.


It was an honest mistake, a typo.  Your comments are rarely helpful, and this comment is so out of line for so many reasons.  What is your deal?  Why do you even post on TUG?


----------



## e.bram (Jul 16, 2011)

The mistake(typo) is how how OP got caught. The typo was an honest mistake. Avoiding fees are not.  I call them as I see them.


----------



## Larry6417 (Jul 16, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> You are quite simply wrong.  Denise tried to be smart by sending a personal transaction to her contact to bypass the paypal fee to save $35.  Let's face it.  That's why she did it.  What she did was the same as putting cash in the mail and addressed it to the wrong place.  Now, she is trying to blame to the post office because she misaddressed it.  You can spin it any way you want, but this is the truth.  She failed to pay the $35, now that she made a mistake, you expect the service provider to provide the service?  Why don't you require Denise to pay the $35 service fee?
> 
> Had Denise sent the payment via the normal method, she could have easily disputed the charge online, froze the payment and gotten her money back.  That's the no spin truth.



I’m a bit surprised by the prickly responses I’ve received to my posts. If I’ve offended anyone, I apologize. It was not my intention at all.

My first point, which you (BocaBum) do not address, is that PayPal provides bad service. My “facts” - PayPal deliberately obscures its phone # on its web site to decrease phone calls. Does that sound like a company aiming to provide great service? What about this case in particular? Denise opened the dispute, AND PayPal agreed to investigate. It just did a bad job investigating. PayPal sent out a canned response after failing to contact the recipient. Again, does this sound like a great service company, or does this sound like a company hoping the problem (and complainant) will just go away?

My second point: should payment services be involved in arbitrating disputes? Some say never. I say that it depends on the payment service. My credit card company does exactly that. A couple of times in the past I’ve had disputes. I disputed the charges, and, in both cases, the amounts were credited back to my card and retracted from the merchant. It appears my CC does offer “superior dispute resolution,” at least for me. Therefore, at least some payment services act as “judge and jury.” The question is: does PayPal do so? PayPal reserves the right to freeze or withdraw funds and has a dispute resolution centre. I’d say “yes.”

My third point: does the “dispute resolution” process apply in this case? All of the above can be true without any blame attached to PayPal...except that PayPal agreed to accept and investigate the complaint. Once it did so, something more than a cursory investigation would have been nice. If the problem were completely outside its bailiwick, then an acceptable (but not customer-friendly response) would be “That’s not covered by our service agreement.” A more friendly customer response would be “That’s not covered by our service agreement, but here are your options.” PayPal did neither. At least the latter would show that PayPal has thought about the problem. This cannot possibly be the first time this has happened. As I mentioned previously, a smart and service-oriented company would have some protocol for preventing and dealing with this problem even (especially!) if it didn’t want to act as “judge and jury.” It seems like PayPal is playing this by ear. You (BocaBum) have stated that PayPal needs better procedures. Do you think a lack of those procedures (the ones you argue for) is a sign of a great company?

Again, I apologize if I’ve offended anyone. I think reasonable people can disagree. We’re not discussing life and death folks. It’s just PayPal.


----------



## DeniseM (Jul 16, 2011)

e.bram said:


> The OP does not have entirely clean hands. The transaction was supposed to  be personal(a gift or present), when in fact it was a commercial transaction(exchange for good or services) to avoid certain fees. This could be construed as fraud. PP may have an AG complaint of it's own.



e.bram - you are quite mistaken - have you ever used PP, or are you just making it up as you go along?  Personal payments do NOT have to be "gifts" or "presents."  

When you send a Personal Payment, you are asked to select the type of transaction, and these are the options:



> This money is being sent as as a:
> 
> Gift
> Living expense
> ...



You do NOT have to stipulate that it is a gift - nor did I.


----------



## glypnirsgirl (Jul 16, 2011)

e.bram said:


> The OP does not have entirely clean hands. The transaction was supposed to  be personal(a gift or present), when in fact it was a commercial transaction(exchange for good or services) *to avoid certain fees*. This could be construed as fraud. PP may have an AG complaint of it's own.



How ironic...


----------



## DeniseM (Jul 16, 2011)

glypnirsgirl said:


> How ironic...



I've got it!  I will register my Paypal Acct. under an LLC!


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Jul 16, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> I've got it!  I will register my Paypal Acct. under an LLC!


A humorous moment in this awful mess is much appreciated. :rofl: 

I hope for a resolution to this very soon.


----------



## Mel (Jul 16, 2011)

wackymother said:


> Boca or anyone who knows--where on the PayPal site would I find the explanations of a "personal" versus a "business" payment? I'm about to pay for the bulk of a rental, and I would like to be protected. This is what I found on PayPal's Products and Services page.
> 
> 
> How Much Does It Cost to Send Money in the US?
> ...


The information you're looking for is pretty much just what you have posted.  Recipients classify their accounts as either personal or business (you can have both).  It used to be that personal accounts could not be set up to accept credit card payments, that has obviously changed.

For business accounts, there is a transaction fee, charged to the recipient - for ALL transactions, not just those using credit cards.  As a result many eBay sellers (and others) have 2 Paypal accounts - one merchant account that accepts credit cards, and another to accept other payment options.  You can only use a "merchant" account with eBay, if you accept Paypal, you have to accept credit cards, and live with the transaction fee.



e.bram said:


> The OP does not have entirely clean hands. The transaction was supposed to  be personal(a gift or present), when in fact it was a commercial transaction(exchange for good or services) to avoid certain fees. This could be construed as fraud. PP may have an AG complaint of it's own.



Not on Denise's part.  If she had used a credit card, it would have cost more through a "personal transfer" to a non-business paypal account.  It would not have cost HER anything to send credit card payment to the seller's commercial account, but would have cost the SELLER the credit card fees - so the seller would have increased his price.

Blame Paypal for setting up a system where those who don't use credit cards STILL have to pay the credit card transaction fee.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Jul 16, 2011)

Mel said:


> Blame Paypal for setting up a system where those who don't use credit cards STILL have to pay the credit card transaction fee.



Why should we blame them?  We should credit them for creating a service for sending proceeds account owners receive without a fee for personal transactions.  

The buyer is not charged a fee.  The seller is.  Sellers gain value from Paypal's services.  I know I do.  I used to only accept checks.  That was a pain.  Now, I gladly pay the paypal service fee for the account and quick cash turnaround and saving me from having to go to the bank all the time.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Jul 16, 2011)

Larry6417 said:


> I’m a bit surprised by the prickly responses I’ve received to my posts. If I’ve offended anyone, I apologize. It was not my intention at all.
> 
> My first point, which you (BocaBum) do not address, is that PayPal provides bad service. My “facts” - PayPal deliberately obscures its phone # on its web site to decrease phone calls. Does that sound like a company aiming to provide great service? What about this case in particular? Denise opened the dispute, AND PayPal agreed to investigate. It just did a bad job investigating. PayPal sent out a canned response after failing to contact the recipient. Again, does this sound like a great service company, or does this sound like a company hoping the problem (and complainant) will just go away?
> 
> ...



If so many people point out the fact that you are wrong, perhaps you should open your mind to the fact that it could actually be true.

Yes.  Paypal is a great company.  I process hundreds of transactions per month and they provide me with great service.  I rarely have a problem and when I do, I have a direct number I call because I do so many transactions.

The market believes Paypal is a great company which is why they are contributing so much toward eBay's earnings.

For individuals without a business, they can accept credit cards.  That is a huge service.  Just because Paypal cannot offer personalized hand holding services to clients who bypass their fees, doesn't preclude them from being a great company.  The market decides if they are a great service company.  And, given eBays results, the market has spoken.

If you believe you can provide a better payment service that provides direct toll free support, please do so.  You will be bankrupt within a month.  Paypal realizes that it is in business to support is clients.  They also realize that they can't make everyone happy.  So, they pick and choose carefully how they will handle support.  I doubt that clients with your expectations for service are high on their priority list.  If you can find a better service, please use them.


----------



## pjrose (Jul 16, 2011)

e.bram said:


> The OP does not have entirely clean hands. The transaction was supposed to  be personal(a gift or present), when in fact it was a commercial transaction(exchange for good or services) *to avoid certain fees. *This could be construed as fraud. PP may have an AG complaint of it's own.





glypnirsgirl said:


> How ironic...



It took me a sec, but I got it -


----------



## Larry6417 (Jul 16, 2011)

*Wow! Prickly...*



BocaBum99 said:


> If so many people point out the fact that you are wrong, perhaps you should open your mind to the fact that it could actually be true.



Have you read perused the PayPal sucks site? An awful lot of people disagree with *you*. 



BocaBum99 said:


> Yes.  Paypal is a great company.  I process hundreds of transactions per month and they provide me with great service.  I rarely have a problem and when I do, I have a direct number I call because I do so many transactions.



I'm glad that you've had a great experience, but not everyone shares that experience. You say you want facts. Richard Kyanka set up a charity for Katrina victims in 2005. PayPal automatically froze the account then refused to refund handling fees for donors. In 2010 PayPal automatically (and without warning) froze or reversed all personal transactions from India, which left many overdrawn on their accounts. 



BocaBum99 said:


> The market believes Paypal is a great company which is why they are contributing so much toward eBay's earnings...And, given eBays results, the market has spoken.



eBay's stock price hasn't increased substantially from 5 yrs ago. I'm not sure one could make the "market" argument. Also, if PayPal is the end-all and be-all, why are alternative payment systems soaring?





BocaBum99 said:


> I doubt that clients with your expectations for service are high on their priority list.  If you can find a better service, please use them.



Actually, I'm sure I'm not high on PayPal's priority list.   I use PayPal only occasionally, and linked to a credit card. I do have access to better payment systems, such as the email transfer service provided by my bank. Boca, you seem to have interpreted my disagreement with you as a personal attack. I assure you it is not. I don't expect that you share my opinion, but for some odd reason, you expect me to share yours.


----------



## Beaglemom3 (Jul 16, 2011)

Larry,

  Great points .
  This is why 28 AGs got involved and who watch PP very closely to this day.



   B.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 16, 2011)

Larry6417 said:


> Have you read perused the PayPal sucks site? An awful lot of people disagree with *you*.



Hence my recommendation to you that you would be better of using another payment transaction service that doesn't have the service you problems you bemoan about Paypal.

Really, Larry, if you that dissatisfied with Paypal, for Pete's sake, *quit using them*!!!  By continuing to use them you are continuing to support business practices you dislike.


----------



## Larry6417 (Jul 16, 2011)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Hence my recommendation to you that you would be better of using another payment transaction service that doesn't have the service you problems you bemoan about Paypal.
> 
> Really, Larry, if you that dissatisfied with Paypal, for Pete's sake, *quit using them*!!!  By continuing to use them you are continuing to support business practices you dislike.



That's what I've been doing! I still have a PayPal account that I set up several years ago though.


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## DeniseM (Jul 16, 2011)

I called Paypal again this morning to find out if the funds had been transferred to me - or if the person who had my money had requested it - he had not.  The Rep. put me on hold for a few minutes, and then came back and said that he (the Rep.) had just reversed the payment!  

Woo Hoo!  I thanked him PROFUSELY!  I know I dodged a bullet here!


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## pjrose (Jul 16, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> I called Paypal again this morning to find out if the funds had been transferred to me - or if the person who had my money had requested it - he had not.  The Rep. put me on hold for a few minutes, and then came back and said that he (the Rep.) had just reversed the payment!
> 
> Woo Hoo!  I thanked him PROFUSELY!  I know I dodged a bullet here!




Yay! 

(And not to put a cloud over your sunshine, but are you SURE it is in your account now?  Can you do something to lock your account so it can't leave again?)


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## Passepartout (Jul 16, 2011)

Congrats, Denise. What an ordeal- that we all learned from! Jim

P.S. The vacation you were paying for (nearly twice) will seem all the sweeter!


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## Beaglemom3 (Jul 16, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> I called Paypal again this morning to find out if the funds had been transferred to me - or if the person who had my money had requested it - he had not.  The Rep. put me on hold for a few minutes, and then came back and said that he (the Rep.) had just reversed the payment!
> 
> Woo Hoo!  I thanked him PROFUSELY!  I know I dodged a bullet here!




  Nice to see the good guys/gals win for a change.

  I do use PP when nothing else is accepted, but will remember what you've gone through.


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## Margariet (Jul 16, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> I called Paypal again this morning to find out if the funds had been transferred to me - or if the person who had my money had requested it - he had not.  The Rep. put me on hold for a few minutes, and then came back and said that he (the Rep.) had just reversed the payment!
> 
> Woo Hoo!  I thanked him PROFUSELY!  I know I dodged a bullet here!



I knew it was a special day! For me it is ... And I'm so glad it is a golden sunny day for you as well. Enjoy!


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## DeniseM (Jul 16, 2011)

pjrose said:


> Yay!
> 
> (And not to put a cloud over your sunshine, but are you SURE it is in your account now?  Can you do something to lock your account so it can't leave again?)



I transferred the money to my bank as soon as it hit the Acct.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 16, 2011)

Good. 

This was the best outcome, esp after 20 some days of drama and worry. I learned much.


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## ada903 (Jul 16, 2011)

I am so glad this was resolved!  I did learn a lot too, I am going to be a lot more cautious from now on!


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 16, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> I called Paypal again this morning to find out if the funds had been transferred to me - or if the person who had my money had requested it - he had not.  The Rep. put me on hold for a few minutes, and then came back and said that he (the Rep.) had just reversed the payment!
> 
> Woo Hoo!  I thanked him PROFUSELY!  I know I dodged a bullet here!



Congrats.  I knew it would come to a successful conclusion one way or another.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 16, 2011)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Larry,
> 
> Great points .
> This is why 28 AGs got involved and who watch PP very closely to this day.
> ...



28 AGs got involved probably because they found a legal way to bypass banking regulations.  Brilliant company.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Jul 16, 2011)

Larry6417 said:


> Have you read perused the PayPal sucks site? An awful lot of people disagree with *you*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All companies have customers who like and dislike them.  You dislike them.  That does nothing to dispute the claim that you are completely wrong on this topic.  

At this point, I think most people on this thread will agree that Paypal provided good customer service to Denise, including Denise.  You have an axe to grind with Paypal.  That is also the truth, but you can't seem to handle the truth.  So you keep changing the subject.


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## Sandy VDH (Jul 16, 2011)

Just wondering if you have a nasty email back the A** yet?


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 16, 2011)

Glad it worked out.  I really was watching this closely, and I think a lot of us were.  Yay for Paypal for stepping up and taking the money back from the thief.


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## am1 (Jul 16, 2011)

I think we can all agree that paypal offers poor customer service.  That is their business model.  That is how they are profitable.  

A lot of companies operate like that.  Think of all the projects where the lowest bidder wins.  There is a reason why they are the lowest bidder.  

It is great that the money was returned but I wonder under what grounds the rep was able to reverse the transaction.  

Maybe Denise is right that we should all get the money out of our paypal account and linked bank accounts as soon as possible.  As paypal will just do as they please.


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## Beaglemom3 (Jul 16, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> 28 AGs got involved probably because they found a legal way to bypass banking regulations.  Brilliant company.



......... and here's why:

Related StoriesLa. asks PayPal to halt service in state
Federal regulators' position that PayPal is not a bank boosts the company's contention that it shouldn't be regulated as one, but officials caution that theirs isn't the final word in the matter. 
In an advisory letter sent last month to PayPal concerning its use of customers' funds, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation said it does not consider the company to be a bank or savings association because it does not accept deposits as defined by federal law, which requires institutions to have a banking charter. PayPal doesn't have a charter, thus it is not a bank, the FDIC said. 

"PayPal does not physically handle or hold funds placed into the PayPal service," the FDIC said in its letter. 

PayPal representatives said the FDIC opinion should help the company stave off attempts by state and federal officials to regulate its business. 

"As long as we continue doing what we are doing today, we won't be subject to Federal banking laws," said PayPal Chief Executive Peter Thiel. 

But an FDIC official said state officials may still conclude that the company is acting as an unauthorized bank. 

"It's really a state issue," said the FDIC official. "I've been on the phone with several state regulators. I've indicated that federal law is not going to help them. They are going to have to come to their own determination under state law" about whether PayPal is acting as a bank. 

PayPal has come under increasing scrutiny from states such as New York and California, which have raised questions about whether the Palo Alto, Calif.-based company is operating an illegal banking service. 

State regulators have also begun to question whether PayPal is operating an unauthorized money transmitting service. Last month, Louisiana asked PayPal to cease offering its service to state residents until it secured a license from the state to transmit money. PayPal is in the process of applying for such a license, Thiel said. 

PayPal acknowledged that the FDIC opinion is not binding on state regulators, but argued that it could have a positive effect. 

The opinion "could be considered relevant by some state authorities in their review of whether PayPal is engaged in the business of banking under state law. Notwithstanding the opinion, PayPal will continue its applications for state money services licenses where appropriate," the company said in a statement. 

The FDIC's decision on PayPal's banking status came as part of an advisory opinion on balances left in PayPal customer accounts. 

As of this quarter, PayPal began depositing customer balances into FDIC-insured bank accounts. The company had asked for an opinion from the FDIC on whether it could pass the insurance protection on to its customers. In its advisory letter, the FDIC said the insurance protections--up to $100,000 per customer per bank--would extend to PayPal customers, even when PayPal deposited the funds for them, PayPal said. 



Read more: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1017-858264.html#ixzz1SItYhy57


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## DaveNV (Jul 16, 2011)

Hey Denise, do you happen to have $1200 I could borrow?  Paypal suddenly took money from my account to give to someone else...  :hysterical: 

Dave

P.S. Glad you got your money back.  And I'll wager next time you do this, you'll triple-check the address you're paying, right?


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 16, 2011)

am1 said:


> I think we can all agree that paypal offers poor customer service.  That is their business model.  That is how they are profitable.


No we don't all agree that PayPal offers poor customer service.

Good customer service does not mean handling any and all customer complaints well.  Good customer means providing service to the customer in accordance with the business model.  When client's have expectations for service that do not conform to the business model, it's actually poor customer service to try to placate those customers.

When a company hews to its business model and doesn't placate customers who don't fit the business model, accounts of poor customer service will appear on complaint board sites like a rash on a three-year old exposed to chicken pox.  But that doesn't necessarily mean the company provides poor customer service.

*****

Example - when Southwest first started flying, there were many complaints about how people couldn't select their own seats, about how they didn't serve food on the flight, etc.  But providing those "service improvments" would actually have been poor customer service, because the primary service that Southwest provided was cheaper prices. 

To me the complaints about PayPal are largely the product of people who want PayPal to be something that PayPal isn't.  Leaving those people frustrated is not necessarily an indication of "poor customer service".

As BocaBum points out, from his perspective and use, PayPal provides excellent service.  That comes directly from the situation that his interest in PayPal and PayPal's business model coincide.


----------



## DeniseM (Jul 16, 2011)

Sandy Lovell said:


> Just wondering if you have a nasty email back the A** yet?



No - I politely informed him that Paypal had refunded the money and he responded, "your welcome!"  Note that he did NOT refund my money - PP did - so I have nothing to thank him for, and I did not thank him.

I have his emails blocked now - I have had enough of his stupidity!


----------



## DeniseM (Jul 16, 2011)

Beaglemom3 said:


> In an advisory letter sent last month to PayPal concerning its use of customers' funds, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation said it does not consider the company to be a bank or savings association because it does not accept deposits as defined by federal law, which requires institutions to have a banking charter. PayPal doesn't have a charter, thus it is not a bank, the FDIC said. [/url]



Until a couple of weeks ago, you could open a Money Market Acct. with PP that paid interest on your deposit - they just ended that service - maybe this is why.


----------



## am1 (Jul 16, 2011)

Paypal is an excellent service.  Just customer service is not their priority.  

Hiding their number, generic reponses, etc do not help people in need but they do not care about those people.  They care about their 2.9%.  

I wonder what % they pay the credit card companies.  They have to be losing money on the people that are only paying 1.9% and only receive credit card payments. 

In regards to this story remember there are always 3 sides.  



T_R_Oglodyte said:


> No we don't all agree that PayPal offers poor customer service.
> 
> Good customer service does not mean handling any and all customer complaints well.  Good customer means providing service to the customer in accordance with the business model.  When client's have expectations for service that do not conform to the business model, it's actually poor customer service to try to placate those customers.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dave M (Jul 16, 2011)

Larry6417 said:


> eBay's stock price hasn't increased substantially from 5 yrs ago.


It has done well compared to the rest of the market. Over the past five years, eBay's stock price has increased 36% while the overall big company market (S&P 500) has increased only 3%. Such a performance is pretty good for almost any stock.


----------



## Larry6417 (Jul 16, 2011)

*Huh?*



BocaBum99 said:


> All companies have customers who like and dislike them.  You dislike them.  That does nothing to dispute the claim that you are completely wrong on this topic.
> 
> At this point, I think most people on this thread will agree that Paypal provided good customer service to Denise, including Denise.  You have an axe to grind with Paypal.  That is also the truth, but you can't seem to handle the truth.  So you keep changing the subject.



I have an axe to grind simply because I don't agree with you? You claim to want fact but conveniently ignore the ones that don't bolster your argument. As I've said previously, I still use PayPal but only in limited situations. For a man who claims to want facts, you offer a lot of opinions as "fact." You love PayPal. I don't. Both of those positions are *opinions*, not fact. You seem to miss the distinction. Honestly, Boca, why is it so important to you that I love PayPal as much as you do? Do you expect every person on every public forum to agree with you? If so, you'll be sorely disappointed. Leave it be, Boca. We both have our own *opinions*.


----------



## Larry6417 (Jul 16, 2011)

Dave M said:


> It has done well compared to the rest of the market. Over the past five years, eBay's stock price has increased 36% while the overall big company market (S&P 500) has increased only 3%. Such a performance is pretty good for almost any stock.



It's well below its all-time high still. See www.nasdaq.com/aspx/dynamic_charting.aspx?selected=EBAY&symbol=EBAY

Really, Boca, why is it so important that I agree with you? It's just...strange.


----------



## pjrose (Jul 16, 2011)

BMWguynw said:


> Hey Denise, do you happen to have $1200 I could borrow?  Paypal suddenly took money from my account to give to someone else...  :hysterical:
> 
> Dave
> 
> P.S. Glad you got your money back.  And I'll wager next time you do this, you'll triple-check the address you're paying, right?



:rofl: :rofl: 

And include a note saying that This $xxx is in payment of the ABC that we agreed.....  etc.


----------



## MichaelColey (Jul 16, 2011)

Thanks for updating the title, Denise!  I was wondering how things turned out, but didn't have time to follow all the posts.  Glad it worked out for you!


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## Beaglemom3 (Jul 16, 2011)

PayPal is, in theory, a good idea based on a business model, but as for customer service ?

I can't see how giving a Denise a canned denial that caused almost three weeks of stress & anxiety, nasty-grams from a stranger as well making her contact the police in order to retrieve her money equates to "good service".


----------



## jerseygirl (Jul 16, 2011)

I'm really glad this worked out for you Denise!!!


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## Patri (Jul 16, 2011)

Oh Denise, look what you started. 10 pages, 232 posts and counting.


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## cotraveller (Jul 16, 2011)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> No we don't all agree that PayPal offers poor customer service.
> 
> Good customer service does not mean handling any and all customer complaints well.  Good customer means providing service to the customer in accordance with the business model.  When client's have expectations for service that do not conform to the business model, it's actually poor customer service to try to placate those customers.
> 
> When a company hews to its business model and doesn't placate customers who don't fit the business model, accounts of poor customer service will appear on complaint board sites like a rash on a three-year old exposed to chicken pox.  But that doesn't necessarily mean the company provides poor customer service.



That is illustrated on this forum with regards to the timeshare developers who provide a product (timeshares) to their customers (owners) according to their (the developers) business model and who are subjected to a large rash of complaints for following that business model.



T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Example - when Southwest first started flying, there were many complaints about how people couldn't select their own seats, about how they didn't serve food on the flight, etc.  But providing those "service improvments" would actually have been poor customer service, because the primary service that Southwest provided was cheaper prices.


By now Southwest has recognized that customers will pay additional for preferred seating and offers the option to move towards the head of the line for an extra fee.  Their priority checkin for an extra $10 appears to be very popular.  Next they may adopt a portion of United's business model and offer reserved seating with extra leg room at the front of the plane.  For an additional fee or course.



T_R_Oglodyte said:


> To me the complaints about PayPal are largely the product of people who want PayPal to be something that PayPal isn't.  Leaving those people frustrated is not necessarily an indication of "poor customer service".
> 
> As BocaBum points out, from his perspective and use, PayPal provides excellent service.  That comes directly from the situation that his interest in PayPal and PayPal's business model coincide.



I would expect someone like Boca, who says he has processed "thousands and thousands of transactions with PayPal", to receive better service than my 3 or 4 transactions a year would get me.  That's RHIP, taking care of your good customers.

Glad to hear it all worked out for you Denise.  You can use the $1,200 for something special on the vacation it was intended to pay for.


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## am1 (Jul 16, 2011)

Beaglemom3 said:


> PayPal is, in theory, a good idea based on a business model, but as for customer service ?
> 
> I can't see how giving a Denise a canned denial that caused almost three weeks of stress & anxiety, nasty-grams from a stranger as well making her contact the police in order to retrieve her money equates to "good service".



After she clicked send or something similar it was no longer her money.


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## Beaglemom3 (Jul 16, 2011)

am1 said:


> After she clicked send or something similar it was no longer her money.



 How is that ?

  She still has rights and privileges as a consumer just as when I hand over money for services or goods.


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## Margariet (Jul 17, 2011)

am1 said:


> After she clicked send or something similar it was no longer her money.



No, that is totally incorrect! It's her money. The person she sent the money to by mistake owes her money. I know American law is different but not that different!


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## ondeadlin (Jul 17, 2011)

I think our expectations of customer service have changed radically in the Internet age.  Only 10 or 15 years ago, getting a mistake like this fixed in under a month would have been considered outstanding customer service. Now? Because we can see something go wrong in real time, we want it fixed in real time, and I'm not sure that's an unrealistic expectation, given that Paypal's business model is built on instant payments.

It's also a bit of a cautionary tale of how we send payments on Paypal.  I've done the same thing as Denise and obviously it's not in the spirit of the rules.  I'll have to reconsider that.

On the whole, I'm a big fan of Paypal.  Whatever their shortcomings, there are many things they do very well, better than anyone else, really.  But I think it's fair to say, as noted above, that they need to do a better job to get their customer service response to match their instant-payment model.


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## Ken555 (Jul 17, 2011)

Congrats, Denise! 

I'm curious why the last PP rep was willing to reverse the payment while the others were not. Do you know?


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## DeniseM (Jul 17, 2011)

Ken555 said:


> Congrats, Denise!
> 
> I'm curious why the last PP rep was willing to reverse the payment while the others were not. Do you know?



The Rep. said that he looked at my history and he could see that I had a previous history with the correct email address (i.e. a previous transaction) and that it was clear to him that this was simply an error, and he reversed it.

All the Reps I talked to subtly indicated that the person who had my money was being uncooperative, and did not understand the situation, and I think that helped my position.

I also know that some influential people made complaints on my behalf, and I'm very grateful for their support.


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## pjrose (Jul 17, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> The Rep. said that he looked at my history and he could see that I had a previous history with the correct email address (i.e. a previous transaction) and that it was clear to him that this was simply an error, and he reversed it.
> 
> All the Reps I talked to subtly indicated that the person who had my money was being uncooperative, and did not understand the situation, and I think that helped my position.
> 
> *I also know that some influential people made complaints on my behalf, and I'm very grateful for their support*.



Can you elaborate a bit on that? People who work for PayPal, or ???


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## DeniseM (Jul 17, 2011)

pjrose said:


> Can you elaborate a bit on that? People who work for PayPal, or ???



Tuggers and Tuggers who reached out to some of their connections for me.

I am very grateful for all the support I received - Tuggers are the best!


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## pjrose (Jul 17, 2011)

Go TUGgers!


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 17, 2011)

Oh, the politics of TUG! You can feel the love. DeniseM, I would suspect you got back some of the love and wisdom you have dispensed over all your posts and help as a moderator.

But the learning curve of this post should guide many others to consider checking email addresses 3X before sending a Paypal payment, typing all 300 characters on those transfer to spell out what the payment is for, and business is still business => and there is costs for doing business for a reason.

(And if it was a someone who I knew and had "traded" before with, I might have made it a personal transfer (like you did)).


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