# Defaulting on Worldmark The Club



## bikertrash2007 (Feb 8, 2020)

Hello all,
this is an update. Around March 2018 I posted for advice about getting out of my timeshare. I tried giving back my credits but WM will only take them back if they are paid off.  I had contacted various exit companies, but the resale value was too low to cover the debt. I owed for 70,000 credits/points. Besides the enormous fees exit companies charged and my lack of trust, I decided to default instead in October 2018. I had been called and mailed numerous times to make a payment plan. At one glimmer of hope, I was sent a letter around May 2019 that suggested I call WM for an exit strategy.  I called about 10 times, left 4 messages and did not receive a single response.
So I gave up. 
In June 2019, WM updated 2 out of 3 credit bureaus that they repossessed the property.  February 2020 I received a 1099-A for repossession of personal property.  They put the value at double of what I owe.  After discussing it with my tax lady and her top tax consultants and owner, we made a "wash" of it on my joint tax return. For 2019, it won't affect me.  For 2020, I might take a hit if they cancel the debt with a 1099-C. If they do that, then I have to file a separate tax return from my husband and/or file BK. 
Holding my breath that WM will no longer come after me.  This is the reason I will not add my name to our home.  Don't need a lien hanging over my head :/

So those of you considering defaulting, this is something to keep in the back of your mind.  I will update if more info comes my way.


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## FunnyFarm (Feb 8, 2020)

Seems very weird that a club/points membership could be considered property that can be repossessed.


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## bikertrash2007 (Feb 8, 2020)

*Form 1099-A, Acquisition or Abandonment of Secured Property*

My argument is that its a club and you purchase points. Doesn't matter because WM says otherwise.


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## cbyrne1174 (Feb 8, 2020)

Considering 70,000 points is only worth about $10,000, it's still better than paying off the loan.


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## easyrider (Feb 8, 2020)

Wyndham is the company that handles all of the defaults. Not Worldmark. The reason that it seems like they are doubling the amount owed on the repossessed points is because there are other costs Wyndham owed Worldmark on the contract that Wyndham is obligated to pay.

Bill


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## VacationForever (Feb 8, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Considering 70,000 points is only worth about $10,000, it's still better than paying off the loan.


More like $20K to $30K at 30 cents to 40 cents a point?


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## bikertrash2007 (Feb 8, 2020)

WM claims the value is over $130,000


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## VacationForever (Feb 8, 2020)

bikertrash2007 said:


> WM claims the value is over $130,000


I know.  The true market value = resale market will bear is between $20K to $30K for a 70,000 points WM contract.


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## cbyrne1174 (Feb 8, 2020)

I've seen the prices go down to $0.15-0.20 per point on Ebay for larger contracts. That's why I haven't bought any resale points. Every year the MF have been going up and the resale prices have been going down.


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## Iggyearl (Feb 8, 2020)

At Tax Time, A Final Kiss Goodbye From Your Former Timeshare Developer
					

At Tax Time, A Final Kiss Goodbye From Your Former Timeshare Developer. Timeshare Attorneys at Finn Law Group can help you with Timeshare Exits & Cancellation. Call Today!




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I don't know your tax lady, or how you handled the 2019  return, but here is an interesting article published by a well known Florida attorney.  He mentions a number of IRS forms, and states a pretty good argument as to why the event should be non-taxable.  However, he states more than once that he is not an accountant, and to do your own due diligence.  Like the author states, it seems incredible that you can pay on a timeshare contract, loose the use of the timeshare - then be liable for forgiven debt.  You ended up with nothing, and they resold your timeshare.  Go figure........


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## Eric B (Feb 9, 2020)

If they do their accounting on an accrual basis, which is likely, they reported the sale as income when it took place.  The mortgage income from the interest would be more income on an ongoing basis as it accrues, though for a different business unit.  Once there is a default, they have to write it off, which the IRS would allow and use the loss to reduce the corporation’s taxes.  When they do that, they have to point to who defaulted so that Uncle Sam doesn’t get stiffed.  If they didn’t act this way, they wouldn’t be doing right by their shareholders like @Fredflintstone.  Might be a good reason to follow his lead and just buy stock in Wyndham and vacation using the dividends instead of buying a TS.


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## talkamotta (Mar 18, 2020)

Thank you for telling us your experience.  It amazes me that people sign for a timeshare without doing their due dilligence.  I bought my first one from the developer, so I'm guilty of this, too.  Mine was $5000 but it was many years ago.  Would we buy a car without doing some research first?  I wanted to kick myself when I saw the same thing I owned, for $900 on ebay, now I don't know if I could give it away.  I learned fast....I do own worldmark but I bought my 41,000 credits almost fully loaded for $5000, no closing costs.  I bought my wyndham 230k points with last year's usage free and no closing costs for $1.  You still have to know how much mfs you can afford, knowing they will increase every year.


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## dgalati (Apr 2, 2020)

Eric B said:


> If they do their accounting on an accrual basis, which is likely, they reported the sale as income when it took place.  The mortgage income from the interest would be more income on an ongoing basis as it accrues, though for a different business unit.  Once there is a default, they have to write it off, which the IRS would allow and use the loss to reduce the corporation’s taxes.  When they do that, they have to point to who defaulted so that Uncle Sam doesn’t get stiffed.  If they didn’t act this way, they wouldn’t be doing right by their shareholders like @Fredflintstone.  Might be a good reason to follow his lead and just buy stock in Wyndham and vacation using the dividends instead of buying a TS.


Nows a good time to pickup some cheap shares.


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## dgalati (Apr 2, 2020)

talkamotta said:


> Thank you for telling us your experience.  It amazes me that people sign for a timeshare without doing their due dilligence.  I bought my first one from the developer, so I'm guilty of this, too.  Mine was $5000 but it was many years ago.  Would we buy a car without doing some research first?  I wanted to kick myself when I saw the same thing I owned, for $900 on ebay, now I don't know if I could give it away.  I learned fast....I do own worldmark but I bought my 41,000 credits almost fully loaded for $5000, no closing costs.  I bought my wyndham 230k points with last year's usage free and no closing costs for $1.  You still have to know how much mfs you can afford, knowing they will increase every year.


Even if the purchase price is $0 I have found it cheaper to rent vs paying maintenance fees.


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## RX8 (Apr 2, 2020)

@Grammarhero , I know you have been keeping track of defaults/credit bureau impact but I don’t see your name anywhere on this thread so notifying you just in case.


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## dagger1 (Apr 2, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Even if the purchase price is $0 I have found it cheaper to rent vs paying maintenance fees.


That’s great renting works for you.  Really good for last minute vacations. The places we want to go to (locations, size units, view, time of year) are almost never available, or rent for significantly higher than MF’s.  That’s why we bought TS’s:  to go where we want, when we want, in the unit size/view we want.


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## dgalati (Apr 2, 2020)

dagger1 said:


> That’s great renting works for you.  Really good for last minute vacations. The places we want to go to (locations, size units, view, time of year) are almost never available, or rent for significantly higher than MF’s.  That’s why we bought TS’s:  to go where we want, when we want, in the unit size/view we want.


I get the way it works for me may not work for all. Try to be open minded what works for you may not be cost effective for everyone. I just don't want the commitment of maintenance fees or being locked into one timeshare program. @Fredflintstone has another way to travel for less and it works for him.


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## dagger1 (Apr 2, 2020)

dgalati said:


> I get the way it works for me may not work for all. Try to be open minded what works for you may not be cost effective for everyone. I just don't want the commitment of maintenance fees or being locked into one timeshare program. @Fredflintstone has another way to travel for less and it works for him.


Yes, I completely understand.  Renting definitely works for some.  For others, those who want to travel every year and need more certainty, TS’s are not only a more consistent method but also a more cost effective way to travel.  Since this is a Timeshare forum, most here have weighed the options and decided owning is more beneficial to them.  We enjoy prepaying our lodgings and planning our trips, knowing well in advance where/when we are going and what size/view our units are going to be.


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## dgalati (Apr 2, 2020)

VacationForever said:


> More like $20K to $30K at 30 cents to 40 cents a point?


I just bought 5k for free all closing and transfer included


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## VacationForever (Apr 2, 2020)

dgalati said:


> I just bought 5k for free all closing and transfer included


How many credits? On eBay?


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## Eric B (Apr 2, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Even if the purchase price is $0 I have found it cheaper to rent vs paying maintenance fees.





dgalati said:


> I just bought 5k for free all closing and transfer included



Some might note an internal inconsistency, but if it works for you....

When you're done with the 5k account and want to get rid of it, let me know.  That would put me at an even 30K for the long term.  Thanks!


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## dgalati (Apr 2, 2020)

VacationForever said:


> How many credits? On eBay?


5000 credits Timeshare Nation


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## dgalati (Apr 2, 2020)

Eric B said:


> Some might note an internal inconsistency, but if it works for you....
> 
> When you're done with the 5k account and want to get rid of it, let me know.  That would put me at an even 30K for the long term.  Thanks!


What do I have to lose? It was free with low maintenance fees. I figured why not see what World Mark has to offer. I will let  you know if I sell it. I will use all credits for this year and next year before I get rid of it. It is a July use year.


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## dagger1 (Apr 3, 2020)

dgalati said:


> What do I have to lose? It was free with low maintenance fees. I figured why not see what World Mark has to offer. I will let  you know if I sell it. I will use all credits for this year and next year before I get rid of it. It is a July use year.


You are going to like it.  Enjoy!


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## dgalati (Apr 3, 2020)

dagger1 said:


> You are going to like it.  Enjoy!


Thanks, I"m looking forward to seeing how it all works. Looks like the program is a little different then Wyndham's.  What do you think WorldMark has to offer over Wyndham?


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## dagger1 (Apr 3, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Thanks, I"m looking forward to seeing how it all works. Looks like the program is a little different then Wyndham's.  What do you think WorldMark has to offer over Wyndham?


I like many of their resorts better.


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## cbyrne1174 (Apr 3, 2020)

It's the Bonus Time that makes the difference. You can book short last minute stays without running out of housekeeping credits. I never see free WM accounts on TS nation.


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## Grammarhero (Apr 4, 2020)

I jotted down this tale on spreadsheet.


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## talkamotta (Apr 8, 2020)

I bought 41k almost fully loaded for $5k  last year, no closing costs.   To the post about a person who would rather rent than buy,  Im really glad everyone is different.  Isnt it wonderful that we have so many choices.  Life is good.


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## easyrider (Apr 11, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Thanks, I"m looking forward to seeing how it all works. Looks like the program is a little different then Wyndham's.  What do you think WorldMark has to offer over Wyndham?



West Coast inventory. 

Bill


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## Rjbeach2003 (Apr 12, 2020)

I often read that it is cheaper to rent than MF.  I periodically check, but you have to check apples to apples.  I think probably all timeshares rent open weeks directly or thru one of the sites like expedia.  When I have checked on ours, the price has always been higher than the MF.  Hotel rentals have to pay tax, which in Hawaii, where ours are, 13.5%.  Plus there are usually other costs.  
Perhaps if I was will to stay in a less desirable location or unit it might be cheaper.


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## cbyrne1174 (Apr 17, 2020)

The trick if you're going to rent WM is to actually own a 5,000 credit account and rent the POINTS from another owner on wmowners.com.
The way WM has MF structured is the more points you own, the less you pay per thousand. That leads to a lot of people with high point accounts having extra points that they need to sell. If you own a 5,000 point contract, you owe $569 a year, or $114 per thousand a year and get 1 HK token and access to bonus time and inventory specials. When you need to more points, you can rent them for $60-70 per thousand from another owner and make your own reservation with your own account in your name. If you are going to use WM more than once a year outside of inventory specials and bonus time, that's when you want a bigger account for extra housekeeping credits. Also when times are tough you are only liable for the $569 a year.

For us Club Wyndham owners, it pairs perfectly if you vacation in areas with both WM and Club Wyndham properties. For example, when I go to Ocean Walk, I want to use WM because their point chart actually lets you pick your view, plus the cost is lower. Out of the 3 times I've gone with my Club Wyndham points, I've only gotten ocean front once out of the 3 times I requested it. If I only want to rent a 3 bedroom at Reunion for 2 nights for a quick family get together with my sister and parents, I would run out of housekeeping credits because the reservation costs around 45,000 points but 140 housekeeping credits. The alternative is to just use bonus time for around $250 and not run out of housekeeping.

There is another way I can get my view request and unlimited housekeeping with owning 100% Club Wyndham, but that has a $27,000 minimum purchase price. No thanks, I'm going to go with the free WM account (whenever I can get my hands on one once this crisis passes).


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## dgalati (Apr 17, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> The trick if you're going to rent WM is to actually own a 5,000 credit account and rent the POINTS from another owner on wmowners.com.
> The way WM has MF structured is the more points you own, the less you pay per thousand. That leads to a lot of people with high point accounts having extra points that they need to sell. If you own a 5,000 point contract, you owe $569 a year, or $114 per thousand a year and get 1 HK token and access to bonus time and inventory specials. When you need to more points, you can rent them for $60-70 per thousand from another owner and make your own reservation with your own account in your name. If you are going to use WM more than once a year outside of inventory specials and bonus time, that's when you want a bigger account for extra housekeeping credits. Also when times are tough you are only liable for the $569 a year.
> 
> For us Club Wyndham owners, it pairs perfectly if you vacation in areas with both WM and Club Wyndham properties. For example, when I go to Ocean Walk, I want to use WM because their point chart actually lets you pick your view, plus the cost is lower. Out of the 3 times I've gone with my Club Wyndham points, I've only gotten ocean front once out of the 3 times I requested it. If I only want to rent a 3 bedroom at Reunion for 2 nights for a quick family get together with my sister and parents, I would run out of housekeeping credits because the reservation costs around 45,000 points but 140 housekeeping credits. The alternative is to just use bonus time for around $250 and not run out of housekeeping.
> ...


If my recent Worldmark purchase dosen't work out as I plan you will be the first one I offer it to for free.


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## Eric B (Apr 18, 2020)

dgalati said:


> If my recent Worldmark purchase dosen't work out as I plan you will be the one I offer it to for free.



That could very well happen.  Almost all of the eBay listings I see for WorldMark include the disclaimer that anyone who has used Ovations  for a Wyndham or WorldMark ownership in the past would be ineligible to purchase; that likely would apply to a transfer from Timeshare Nation as well.  I'll be interested to see if it happens to you.


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## dgalati (Apr 18, 2020)

Eric B said:


> That could very well happen.  Almost all of the eBay listings I see for WorldMark include the disclaimer that anyone who has used Ovations  for a Wyndham or WorldMark ownership in the past would be ineligible to purchase; that likely would apply to a transfer from Timeshare Nation as well.  I'll be interested to see if it happens to you.


I have talked to Ovations about this. Wyndham will not let you buy developer but you can buy resale. I have never used Ovations. They would not take back my deeds because I didn't own them for a year. Sold the 4 deeds back to Wyndham through a third party using Wyndham's preferred resaled broker. Sounds nuts but it happened last year. The transfer time from start to finish was 5 weeks on first 2 then 4 weeks on last 2 deeds.  I assume they must have needed Grand Desert inventory. Purchase agreement stated buyers first year of use 2020 as I already used all 616,000 points for current use year.


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