# new purchase...is this a good deal?



## haras (Jun 16, 2020)

I'm able to purchase a 20k contract for $2000.  it comes with 18,000 points from 2019 and 20,000 will deposit at the end of this month.  I'd have to pay the fee to worldmark to be enrolled in their system.  The sellers will pay the monthly MF until it transfers to my name.  Do you think this is a good deal?  I would be using it mainly to exchange with interval.


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## haras (Jun 16, 2020)

I forgot to add that the MF are approximately $1670


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## Firepath (Jun 16, 2020)

Sounds good to me. I would buy it if you trust the seller, but others will know better.


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## RX8 (Jun 16, 2020)

I don’t own Worldmark but I did do a lot of research a few years back as I seriously considered purchasing. I seem to remember 30 cents per point was a fair resale price and you are at 10 cents per point so I would say a great deal, if the seller can deliver.


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## geist1223 (Jun 16, 2020)

There is no Fee to enroll in Worldmark. There is the $299 fee to Wyndham to transfer the Account into your name. You and the seller can do the transfer without a Title or Transfer Company by the both of you working with Wyndham Transfer/Title Office. The Transfer will take 3 to 6 months. With 20K Points/Credits you will get 2 HKC and 2 GC per year. You can have 2 people's names on the Account. HKC roll over just like Points/Credits. Not the same with the GC. Also the rules on using GC are very strict. Such as if you make a Reservation for a Guest and you make any changes (dates/name of Guest/etc) you lose the GC and have to use another. So the advice is to always wait until the last minute to place the Guest Name on the Reservation. You can cancel a Reservation up to 30 days before check-in and get all your Credits/Points back and any Lodging Taxes. In addition to Reservations with Credits/Points there are 3 main cash options: Bonus Time, Monday Madness, and Inventory Specials. Worldmark also has a very active Waitlist. You can have four pending Waitlist Requests. The Worldmark Reservation System opens at 6am West Coast time online and 8am for telephone. As a resell buyer you will not have access to Wyndham Club Pass or Wyndham SouthPacific.

Checkout www.wmowners.com/forum. This is by Worldmark Owners for Worldmark Owners. No fee to join. No involvement by Wyndham or Worldmark.


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## Eric B (Jun 16, 2020)

If you buy it, have the seller make a reservation about 10 months out to tie up the credits that are expiring at the end of the anniversary month.  You can cancel the reservation and book a new one or two with those credits after it transfers.


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## ski_sierra (Jun 16, 2020)

haras said:


> I'm able to purchase a 20k contract for $2000.  it comes with 18,000 points from 2019 and 20,000 will deposit at the end of this month.  I'd have to pay the fee to worldmark to be enrolled in their system.  The sellers will pay the monthly MF until it transfers to my name.  Do you think this is a good deal?  I would be using it mainly to exchange with interval.



looks good. Are you sure you need a large sized account for II exchanges?


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## haras (Jun 18, 2020)

ski_sierra said:


> looks good. Are you sure you need a large sized account for II exchanges?



this is probably my only worry is that I won’t need this


geist1223 said:


> There is no Fee to enroll in Worldmark. There is the $299 fee to Wyndham to transfer the Account into your name. You and the seller can do the transfer without a Title or Transfer Company by the both of you working with Wyndham Transfer/Title Office. The Transfer will take 3 to 6 months. With 20K Points/Credits you will get 2 HKC and 2 GC per year. You can have 2 people's names on the Account. HKC roll over just like Points/Credits. Not the same with the GC. Also the rules on using GC are very strict. Such as if you make a Reservation for a Guest and you make any changes (dates/name of Guest/etc) you lose the GC and have to use another. So the advice is to always wait until the last minute to place the Guest Name on the Reservation. You can cancel a Reservation up to 30 days before check-in and get all your Credits/Points back and any Lodging Taxes. In addition to Reservations with Credits/Points there are 3 main cash options: Bonus Time, Monday Madness, and Inventory Specials. Worldmark also has a very active Waitlist. You can have four pending Waitlist Requests. The Worldmark Reservation System opens at 6am West Coast time online and 8am for telephone. As a resell buyer you will not have access to Wyndham Club Pass or Wyndham SouthPacific.
> 
> Checkout www.wmowners.com/forum. This is by Worldmark Owners for Worldmark Owners. No fee to join. No involvement by Wyndham or Worldmark.





 With 20K Points/Credits you will get 2 HKC and 2 GC per year. 

can you explain to me what HKC an GC are.


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## ski_sierra (Jun 18, 2020)

Couple of things for you to think about.

How many exchanges do you plan to do? Can you do them < 60 days before check-in. Since you never know how things go with exchanges, it may not be worthwhile to commit to a big account.  A 10k account for example can rent in 20k credits. 30k credits can give you 3 exchanges in 2 BR (outside of 60 days). If within 60 days then you only need 4k credits. Rent in credits only when an exchange comes through so your liability is minimized. 

If you get the 20k account, you can also rent out excess credits if you don't find an exchange.  I think the risk is low.


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## NiteMaire (Jun 18, 2020)

haras said:


> can you explain to me what HKC an GC are.


Like @RX8 I don't own Worldmark, but I'm fairly certain they are HouseKeeping Credits and Guest Certificates (tokens).  Each stay requires X credits/tokens.  You either use your tokens/credits or pay $$.


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## turkel (Jun 18, 2020)

I would call it a very good deal. If you can afford the fees and would use it.


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## luv_maui (Jun 20, 2020)

ski_sierra said:


> Couple of things for you to think about.
> 
> How many exchanges do you plan to do? Can you do them < 60 days before check-in. Since you never know how things go with exchanges, it may not be worthwhile to commit to a big account.  A 10k account for example can rent in 20k credits. 30k credits can give you 3 exchanges in 2 BR (outside of 60 days). If within 60 days then you only need 4k credits. Rent in credits only when an exchange comes through so your liability is minimized.
> 
> If you get the 20k account, you can also rent out excess credits if you don't find an exchange.  I think the risk is low.


You’re probably right, but I’ve never rented or rented out credits, so something to consider.  Exchanges at full price can use credits up pretty quickly, so does one really need 2 full > 60 days out exchanges or can do 5 flexchanges ( less than 60 days before arrival).  alternatively, does one live near a lot of worldmarks, like west coast, for some bonus time, if lucky/persistent, and/or would utilize stays in worldmarks.  Can one only go to worldmark s on weekends?  If so, almost as much as a flexchange vs. 4 weekdays (Mon-Thurs) which are so much less expensive.  And those city worldmarks (Portland, Seattle, San Francisco) credit costs are very expensive.  we like our larger account and book weekends on the Oregon coast, although more credit costs than weekdays and uses up more housekeeping tokens if you don’t have a NHK account.


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## luv_maui (Jun 20, 2020)

But yes, 0.10/credit is great deal if it’s legit.  We purchased our credits at what I thought was a great price $0.80/credit a long time ago, well below developer price in $2-$3 credit range.  It’s been a long time, but we paid a slight premium to get a NHK and with our many weekend trips we’ve done, sometimes 8-12 reservations in a year, it has really helped save on HK fees.  This year with 11 II trades and maybe 5-6 worldmark stays, our NHK account will have saved us probably around $500-$1,000.  Also keep in mind you can borrow up to a year’s worth of credits so at some point a 20,000 point account could have access to up to 60,000 credits.  That’s a lot of credits. Would a smaller account still meet your needs and would you on average really use 20,000 credits each and every year?  But I know how a great price can be tempting!  I window shop all the time on interval international.


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## haras (Jun 20, 2020)

ski_sierra said:


> Couple of things for you to think about.
> 
> How many exchanges do you plan to do? Can you do them < 60 days before check-in. Since you never know how things go with exchanges, it may not be worthwhile to commit to a big account.  A 10k account for example can rent in 20k credits. 30k credits can give you 3 exchanges in 2 BR (outside of 60 days). If within 60 days then you only need 4k credits. Rent in credits only when an exchange comes through so your liability is minimized.
> 
> If you get the 20k account, you can also rent out excess credits if you don't find an exchange.  I think the risk is low.



I decided to proceed and open escrow. I sold two timeshares this year that I didn’t love so I can afford the MF. I’m located in Southern California and can do less than 59 day check ins so I think I’ll be able to take advantage of interval exchanges.


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## haras (Jun 20, 2020)

luv_maui said:


> But yes, 0.10/credit is great deal if it’s legit.  We purchased our credits at what I thought was a great price $0.80/credit a long time ago, well below developer price in $2-$3 credit range.  It’s been a long time, but we paid a slight premium to get a NHK and with our many weekend trips we’ve done, sometimes 8-12 reservations in a year, it has really helped save on HK fees.  This year with 11 II trades and maybe 5-6 worldmark stays, our NHK account will have saved us probably around $500-$1,000.  Also keep in mind you can borrow up to a year’s worth of credits so at some point a 20,000 point account could have access to up to 60,000 credits.  That’s a lot of credits. Would a smaller account still meet your needs and would you on average really use 20,000 credits each and every year?  But I know how a great price can be tempting!  I window shop all the time on interval international.



this account comes with two hk per year.  If you use them all, how much do you have to pay for housekeeping?  If you exchange with interval do you have to have hk credits ?


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## luv_maui (Jun 20, 2020)

haras said:


> this account comes with two hk per year.  If you use them all, how much do you have to pay for housekeeping?  If you exchange with interval do you have to have hk credits ?


Housekeeping effective 1/1/2020:

$74 studio
$98 1 br
$112 2 br
$123 2 br
$163 4 br

I believe you need 1 housekeeping for every exchange at II, but don’t quote me since we have a NHK account and it was never a consideration. But an extra 10 housekeepings would be $1,120 if they were all 2 bedrooms.  We knew we might have multiple reservations above and beyond our HK tokens and didn’t want to hesitate to make weekend reservations.


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## haamos (Aug 5, 2020)

So in this case an NHK account would cost an additional $.70 or $14,000 vs paying HK fee would be 12+ years to breakeven ?


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## ecwinch (Aug 7, 2020)

Close - but your ROI horizon would likely be longer and dependent on how many HK tokens you saved per year.  And with 20k in credits, unless you were doing single night stays the majority of the time,  you would burn thru your credits before you would get to 10 free HK tokens.

At $500 in HK token savings per year - and without doing some complex calculations involving opportunity expense, tax rates, inflation, etc. - I would say the ROI is closer to 20+ years.

The premium for NHK has floated between $10-15k in recent years.


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## sue1947 (Aug 7, 2020)

haamos said:


> So in this case an NHK account would cost an additional $.70 or $14,000 vs paying HK fee would be 12+ years to breakeven ?



The premium for a NHK account is a flat rate vs a per credit price.  
Eric has been on a rather irrational crusade against NHK accounts for many years.   His 'advise' on this needs to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt.  
In reality, the break even point will vary based on how YOU end up using the account.  My break even point turned out to be about half the time I estimated because it changes how you use your account.  Before, I didn't bother to even consider one night stays due to the cost of HK.  Now, I look for those 1-2 night options for a quick getaway or to bridge between 2 exchanges vs motels etc.   With the increase in the costs for the cash options like bonus time or Monday madness which include housekeeping but especially the increase in the minimum fee per night, booking with credits has become cheaper, regardless of type of account.  The NHK makes it even better.


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## geist1223 (Aug 7, 2020)

Question: If a person has a Traditionl NHK Account with 60K Points/Credits does Wyndhm deposit 6 HKC in your Account on your Anniversary Date?

I do not think Eric's position concerning Traditional NHK Accounts is irrational. I highly question the exhorbitant value people place on NHK Accounts. Part of it how a person uses an Account. We can not take off for a couple days on a whim. We have 3 pets and our pet sitter (during normal times) is hard to Book because she is in high demand.

But we have argue this point ad nauseam on wmowners.com.


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## ecwinch (Aug 9, 2020)

sue1947 said:


> The premium for a NHK account is a flat rate vs a per credit price.
> Eric has been on a rather irrational crusade against NHK accounts for many years.   His 'advise' on this needs to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt.
> In reality, the break even point will vary based on how YOU end up using the account.  My break even point turned out to be about half the time I estimated because it changes how you use your account.  Before, I didn't bother to even consider one night stays due to the cost of HK.  Now, I look for those 1-2 night options for a quick getaway or to bridge between 2 exchanges vs motels etc.   With the increase in the costs for the cash options like bonus time or Monday madness which include housekeeping but especially the increase in the minimum fee per night, booking with credits has become cheaper, regardless of type of account.  The NHK makes it even better.



Well Sue..... since you seem to want to fan the flames..... I jump back on my soapbox and deliver the "dark-side" of NHK, and why I personally - though I would love to be exempt from NHK fees - will not be buying one.

What many of those who own one do not want you to know about NHK's is that they were illegally created by the developer controlled BoD in the early days of the Club. Because in WMtC there is only one class of members - and we are all members of the same Club, pay dues on the same relative basis, and under CA corporate law - are supposed to receive the same benefits. Which we do - except for the 2000+ accounts that are exempt from HK charges simply based on a check box on their account. 

And who do you think bears the cost of Sue's free HK tokens? The rest of the members. Not the developer - who illegally created them - but the rest of the membership. 

The irony is this scenario is that many of the very people who complain endlessly about the unilateral abuses of the developer - have no problem taking advantage of the illegal actions of the developer when it benefits them. And at some point, the cost of those "free" tokens will continue to rise, and something will have to be done to protect the Club - which will result in the elimination of NHK or at a minimum to limit the transfer of NHK's and to only allow free HK tokens for the number of credits that the account originally was sold with.

That is what Sue is really concerned about. And thanks for the invite to explain the "rest of the story".


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## dgalati (Aug 9, 2020)

.


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## dgalati (Aug 9, 2020)

.


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## geist1223 (Aug 9, 2020)

Well Eric is wrong on one very important point. The Developer (years before Wyndham and back to the original creation of Worldmark) did not create a "Special Class" of no NHK Accounts vice all the regular Accounts. Originally all Accounts were NHK. The Developer/BOD discovered this was not sustainable financially. MF's could not pay for everything. So they decreed that all Accounts purchased after "X" date would have House Keeping Fees after they used all their House Keeping Tokens. So actually the illegal class is the regular accounts.


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## easyrider (Aug 9, 2020)

I have been watching loaded WM accounts being offered for sale for very little on facebook buy and sell WM groups and ebay. The covid sale is what I call it. Many people want out for one reason or another.

Bill


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## ecwinch (Aug 10, 2020)

geist1223 said:


> Well Eric is wrong on one very important point. The Developer (years before Wyndham and back to the original creation of Worldmark) did not create a "Special Class" of no NHK Accounts vice all the regular Accounts. Originally all Accounts were NHK. The Developer/BOD discovered this was not sustainable financially. MF's could not pay for everything. So they decreed that all Accounts purchased after "X" date would have House Keeping Fees after they used all their House Keeping Tokens. So actually the illegal class is the regular accounts.



Like so much of the rationalization that NHK account holders engage in, this is fastest path to ending NHK. It is a straight line to all accounts are NHK, ergo housekeeping fees are a fee that the BoD has no legal authority to impose on the members for reservations made with credits purchased from the Club's authorized agent. That punches a big hole in the WMtC budget that has to be filled somehow.


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## haras (Aug 12, 2020)

I’m almost close to closing escrow on my worldmark.  Can someone explain to me why the remaining dues are more than the annual maintenance fees?  I know worldmark prepared this document. I’m still confused.


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## ecwinch (Aug 12, 2020)

haras said:


> I’m almost close to closing escrow on my worldmark.  Can someone explain to me why the remaining dues are more than the annual maintenance fees?  I know worldmark prepared this document. I’m still confused.



I had something like this happen to me on my last resale purchase. Seller picked a date when they thought the sale would close, and only paid dues up thru that date. 

Where it impacts you is that they will not complete the transfer until someone pays that lingering balance. In my case it was a smaller amount, so I just paid it. As the seller was taking the position that I was the one who was getting that year's credits.


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## Eric B (Aug 13, 2020)

There's a 10,000 credit WM account listed on Timeshare Nation right now that would be free, including the transfer costs, if this one falls through for OP, @haras.  It will probably go quickly, though.


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## pharmacistking (Aug 13, 2020)

Eric B said:


> There's a 10,000 credit WM account listed on Timeshare Nation right now that would be free, including the transfer costs, if this one falls through for OP, @haras.  It will probably go quickly, though.


It's not available anymore. I asked yesterday


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## Eric B (Aug 13, 2020)

Yeah, they go quickly.  Hadn't noticed the update to the inventory until this morning.


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## haras (Oct 7, 2020)

Wanted to report that the transfer is complete.  I’m having a hard time logging into the account and have to call customer care again.  I can’t wait to use it in interval.


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## Mongoose (Oct 9, 2020)

haras said:


> Wanted to report that the transfer is complete.  I’m having a hard time logging into the account and have to call customer care again.  I can’t wait to use it in interval.


How long did it take to complete the transfer?


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## haras (Oct 10, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> How long did it take to complete the transfer?



3 months


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