# Owner Update:  How we upgraded and got HGV Max



## JillAndrea (Apr 10, 2022)

Hi All!  

We are "newer" HGVC owners and just attended our owners update... and we bit! By newer I mean we purchased our first EOY HGVC deed in 2019, and then upgraded to an EY BHC deed six months later. I will share the details of our owners update which was primarily focused on HGV Max.  There are a few details that are important to understand, but perhaps it is different for every owner update presentation, depending on your current membership level, ownership, and your income/credit rating (just guessing).  I also do not know how financing changes things because we buy outright.

There are essentially two options to join the HGV Max tier:

*OPTION 1)* Make no changes to your current deed(s) and pay a 7K HGV Max initiation fee PLUS 1K for every HGVC deed you own.  If you own one deed, the HGV MAX initiation is 8K (7K+ 1K) and if you own four deeds the initiation fee is 11K (7K + 4K).   In most of the posts here I do not see mention of the 1K per deed additional cost, so if you own more than one deed it is an important detail. Buying into HGV Max does not cost 7K!​​*OPTION 2)* If you upgrade your current deed, or add a new deed to your account, you are automatically initiated into the HGV Max tier for free.​
We proceeded with Option 2 because the value of the upgrade that was presented to us was outstanding and we will now have access to the larger portfolio of resorts. The upgrade we purchased doubled our deeded point value from ~5k pts EY BHC Studio Premier to ~10K pts EY 1 Bedroom Premier. Our maintenance costs remained the same because we moved out of a BHC property (which we never used) back to a traditional HGVC Club property. The new deed is valued at ~47K but our trade-in deed was valued at ~30K so our new spend was ~17K, and included the HGV Max privileges. Additionally, we received 17K bonus points (one for every dollar spent in the upgrade) banked to begin in 2023, as we did not want to waste them this year.  Our new contract states that we have a 9 month booking window for all HGVC properties and a 6 month booking window for the newly acquired DRI properties. Also note that as an HGV Max member all reservation/booking fees are waived. Also we were told that HGV Max owners will have a unique website/app experience - HGV Max members will see the new HGV Max logo on the top left of homepage, and the site will have different access and features that traditional non-Max owners will not see.

It was also clearly explained that the availability of Diamond Resorts will be trickling in over time, because Hilton is upgrading/renovating them to be of the same quality as the existing HGVC portfolio (not just another RCI). The explanation provided about the DRI integration was this - there 92 DRI properties, overall, which have been acquired by HGV, most which are not up to HGV standards at this time. This is the reason they are not immediately available and will trickle in over time. HGV is investing several billion dollars to upgrade these resorts to HGV luxury and modernization standards. Currently, there are six US Diamond Resorts which will come online for HGV Max owners soon, and additional resorts will be added over time as they are upgraded. The six resorts include Orlando, Sedona, Scottsdale, Williamsburg, Virginia Beach, and Lake Tahoe.  Then a handful more will be added each month.  I have to imagine that the current supply chain issues will impact this roll-out.

I do not know if the DRI properties will remain available on RCI or not, but based on my experience, if they do, they will not be of the same quality as the rooms available using HGV points. 

In summary we spent ~17K to double our deed value/points from 5-10K EY, got 17K bonus points which begin in 2023, and we are now HGV Max tier owners.


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## letsgobobby (Apr 10, 2022)

Thanks for that info!

It's not clear if your original deed and/or bHC deed were resale or developer? That is, is Option 1 available to those who only own resale?


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## PigsDad (Apr 10, 2022)

The $7K fee is listed in the Club guide that was updated a few days ago online.  There was no mention of an additional $1K per deed fee, and this is the first time I have seen that fee reported.  Call me a skeptic, but why would HGV have updated documentation to include the one fee but not the other?  I strongly suspect the extra fee was just "embellishment" on the part of the sales person to make upgrading directly with him (aka, big commission $$$) look like the better option.

Kurt


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## escanoe (Apr 10, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> Hilton is upgrading/renovating them to be of the same quality as the existing HGVC portfolio (not just another RCI).





JillAndrea said:


> I do not know if the DRI properties will remain available on RCI or not, but based on my experience, if they do, they will not be of the same quality as the rooms available using HGV points.



I find this interesting. So they may just be upgrading the rooms that will be booked using HGV Max points and not the ones traded into via RCI???

I have traded into DRI resorts both for the NC Outer Banks Beachwoods and the Historic Powhattan at Williamsburg using RCI. I may not be getting the crème de la crème rooms using this approach but considering my family economics I am quite sure it is the right approach for us.

I am curious how much Virginia Beach summer inventory there will be available for beach season at the 6 months HGV Max mark.


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 10, 2022)

Thank you for sharing. This is very helpful.

I agree with the $1k/deed embellishment cited by @PigsDad. I will now go back to them and ask them where this is listed.

1) What sales office what this out of? 

2)  Including your prior purchases and upgrades how much have you spent all-in for your current 10k points? What resort did you end up buying?


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## dougp26364 (Apr 10, 2022)

If upgrading a deed makes sense, getting MAX thrown in as a bonus without charge may prove to be beneficial at some point. MAX isn’t enough to get us to drop several thousands more dollars on a deed upgrade when Hilton has nothing new to offer that’s of interest to us.


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## dayooper (Apr 10, 2022)

dougp26364 said:


> If upgrading a deed makes sense, getting MAX thrown in as a bonus without charge may prove to be beneficial at some point. MAX isn’t enough to get us to drop several thousands more dollars on a deed upgrade when Hilton has nothing new to offer that’s of interest to us.



This. As of right now, there isn’t enough offered with HGV Max to even have us consider upgrading or even attend a sales presentation.

If anyone sees value with an deed upgrade, then it’s the right choice.


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## JillAndrea (Apr 10, 2022)

letsgobobby said:


> Thanks for that info!
> 
> It's not clear if your original deed and/or bHC deed were resale or developer? That is, is Option 1 available to those who only own resale?



We purchased directly all three times.  My understanding is that HGV Max is not available for Resale Owners, however I did read on another forum that some people were given the option to upgrade/trade in their resale deed for a direct ownership deed and get HGV Max.  No clue what the cost would be.


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## dayooper (Apr 10, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> We purchased directly all three times.  My understanding is that HGV Max is not available for Resale Owners, however I did read on another forum that some people were given the option to upgrade/trade in their resale deed for a direct ownership deed and get HGV Max.  No clue what the cost would be.



The wording on the club rules page is very vague about resale.

Normally, when a resale is traded in, they use the cost the original owner paid when they bought it from HGVC.


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## JillAndrea (Apr 10, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thank you for sharing. This is very helpful.
> 
> I agree with the $1k/deed embellishment cited by @PigsDad. I will now go back to them and ask them where this is listed.
> 
> ...



Our owner update was out of The District in DC.  We worked directly with the Sales Manager from the start - according to him, he is actually the Sales Manager from the NYC sales office and was in DC for a few months to train their local sales staff.  I am not sure why we were assigned to him directly and not work through a level-1 sales rep, as there were lots of them sitting around with no clients.  We have a few guesses (we have paid cash twice before, we have a high credit rating, and apparently we were owners of a "BHC Trial" but we were not aware it was a trial).

We first purchased an EOY 3600pt deed in Parc Soliel, Orlando for ~15K + 8K bonus pts.  Then 6 months later we traded it in for an EY 3600pt BHC deed in The Central at 5th, NYC for another ~15K + 8K bonus pts.  This was apparently classified as a BHC trial because the deed was for less than a full week, even though the points were all we cared about. This is now worth 5760 points in the new points system. For our current purchase we have upgraded to an EY 10080pt HGVC deed at Ocean Tower in HI for 17k +17K bonus pts and HGV Max.  We are all in for ~47K, no financing and our maintenance fees have not changed.  We are not likely ever going to Hawaii, but were primarily after more points and more location flexibility- which is exactly what we got.


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## GT75 (Apr 10, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> The $7K fee is listed in the Club guide that was updated a few days ago online. There was no mention of an additional $1K per deed fee, and this is the first time I have seen that fee reported. Call me a skeptic, but why would HGV have updated documentation to include the one fee but not the other? I strongly suspect the extra fee was just "embellishment" on the part of the sales person to make upgrading directly with him (aka, big commission $$$) look like the better option.


I agree with @PigsDad.     Most of us don't see the benefit if it cost an additional $7K let alone an additional $7K+$1K/deed (also agree that that isn't stated on the website.   I would certainly think that is important information to have been left off.)   In addition, you talked about no booking fees (which is a plus) and also access to former DRI resorts.    But you didn't discuss the booking windows for these former DRI resorts.   Where do the former CI/Embarc resorts fall?  There are still many unanswered questions for me to even consider changing anything as it currently stands.   Basically, call me skeptical, but I want to see the booking rules first and then I will make my decision.


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## GMan82 (Apr 10, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> Our owner update was out of The District in DC.  We worked directly with the Sales Manager from the start - according to him, he is actually the Sales Manager from the NYC sales office and was in DC for a few months to train their local sales staff.  I am not sure why we were assigned to him directly …


Oh I had the same guy then early March. Big beard? Slick dude. See my owner update review for District. It’s probably on the first page of this forum still since it was revived a few days ago. Yeah he told me I was specially assigned to him because I’d been to many owner updates and not bought, and for the one I I’d buy, I had rescinded. So he made himself out to be “crème de la crème.” He wanted me to buy EOYO West 57th Gold 3750 pt old for $21500 and told me that would get my toes into BHC and I can then use my Elara points to book W57th and BHC within whatever special window I was given.

Well, he turned me onto BHC and I’m actively in a resale purchase now through Diane Nadeau. Still waiting to hear about ROFR and if the contract will pass through to me. Maybe then if they honor the underlying retail value during my next update, I can get one of those Studio premiers that are the apparent unicorn AND Max at a decent price.


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## JillAndrea (Apr 10, 2022)

GT75 said:


> ... In addition, you talked about no booking fees (which is a plus) and also access to former DRI resorts.    But you didn't discuss the booking windows for these former DRI resorts.   Where do the former CI/Embarc resorts fall?  There are still many unanswered questions for me to even consider changing anything as it currently stands.   Basically, call me skeptical, but I want to see the booking rules first and then I will make my decision.



I don't know all the details, but our contract states that all HGVC properties remain a 9 month booking window, and all DRI properties will have a 6 month booking window.  If Embarc and CI were owned and operated by Diamond Resorts then it is a 6 month booking window for HGV Owners.  The way I see it, the DRI owners seem to be getting the brunt of this acquisition, so they have to give them lead time on what they own.

For us that is not so critical.  Our travel style is very ad hoc... find a place that is available and either hop in the car or book a flight and go.  My husband and I both have flexible work situations and can work from anywhere as long as there is decent internet access). This is another reason why the offer was so appealing to us.... lots more northeast locations we can drive to.  I am looking forward to Quebec, Toronto, and Kennebunk resorts though they won't be among the first available.


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## JillAndrea (Apr 10, 2022)

GMan82 said:


> Oh I had the same guy then early March. Big beard? Slick dude. See my owner update review for District. It’s probably on the first page of this forum still since it was revived a few days ago. Yeah he told me I was specially assigned to him because I’d been to many owner updates and not bought, and for the one I I’d buy, I had rescinded. So he made himself out to be “crème de la crème.” He wanted me to buy EOYO West 57th Gold 3750 pt old for $21500 and told me that would get my toes into BHC and I can then use my Elara points to book W57th and BHC within whatever special window I was given.
> 
> Well, he turned me onto BHC and I’m actively in a resale purchase now through Diane Nadeau. Still waiting to hear about ROFR and if the contract will pass through to me. Maybe then if they honor the underlying retail value during my next update, I can get one of those Studio premiers that are the apparent unicorn AND Max at a decent price.


BHC is great if you are after NYC. The idea of an owners lounge in the city is appealing but we ended up never using it. I grew up there and still have local family, so it wasn't a good use of our points. We go to NYC about 4x per year and stay with and enjoy home-cooked meals with friends and family... and we still get our fill of Broadway shows.

And I did read your thread and knew it was the same sales manager.


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## JillAndrea (Apr 10, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> The $7K fee is listed in the Club guide that was updated a few days ago online.  There was no mention of an additional $1K per deed fee, and this is the first time I have seen that fee reported.  Call me a skeptic, but why would HGV have updated documentation to include the one fee but not the other?  I strongly suspect the extra fee was just "embellishment" on the part of the sales person to make upgrading directly with him (aka, big commission $$$) look like the better option.
> 
> Kurt





CalGalTraveler said:


> So the most cost effective options so far appear to be:
> 
> 1*) Do Nothing*. Enjoy HGV as  it is today (still wondering where Embarc will land...)
> 2) _(If you already own a developer unit)_ *Buy into HGV Max for $7000 plus fees t*o get 6 month reservations and Diamond version of Open Season. 0 additional MF. Could add more resale HGV to ownership points once enrolled. Easy to exit.
> ...



I copied this from another thread.  See #2 says "plus fees".... guessing this could be the 1k per deed?


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## Hobokie (Apr 10, 2022)

This has been a riveting read, ha! Thanks for sharing, everyone 

I got my EY Platinum Studio Plus Elara which gave me 3500 points previously (now 5600 after the recent conversion of 60% added) for a mere $147.50 off eBay and my MF excluding Club Dues was $676.61 (add $188 club dues for a total annual payment of $864.61 made December 2021.

@JillAndrea, curious as to why you would buy Hawaii if you don’t think you will be going there much or ever? I understand trading out of BHC if not using since more expensive MF, but Hawaii is probably the next most expensive MF…? (I mean, if you don’t plan on using… why not buy in Vegas, for example, with much lower MFs?)

I will probably go to an owners update on my next trip to hear alllllllll about this HGV Max  approaching now “timeshare pro” thanks to TUG, I don’t mind owner updates at all haha!


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## NiteMaire (Apr 10, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> It was also clearly explained that the availability of Diamond Resorts will be trickling in over time, because Hilton is upgrading/renovating them to be of the same quality as the existing HGVC portfolio (not just another RCI). The explanation provided about the DRI integration was this - there 92 DRI properties, overall, which have been acquired by HGV, most which are not up to HGV standards at this time. This is the reason they are not immediately available and will trickle in over time.


Color me skeptical, but I don't think that's the driving factor for availability/trickling. I buy the integration, but think it's more systems integration.  Sure, they may prioritize certain properties, but they have to have to integrate the 2 systems or create a new one.
Sales (and marketing) sure seem to focus the lack of quality with DRI resorts.  So much so, it almost makes me wonder why they purchased DRI.


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## LAMI (Apr 10, 2022)

We attended the "Owner Update" last month. We added the minimum amount we could to get the "limited time" grandfather-in offer to move all of our points to HGV Max. The subplot from the sales guy was that legacy HGV Elite memberships would start to loose privilege's we are accustomed to enjoying unless we upgraded to HGV MAX. We were told that there would be "exciting news" released on 4/4. So far I only hear crickets. No emails, No letters, Nothing on the HGV Website. The only changes we see so far with the HGV Max Program is that the credit card charge has cleared and our login access to the HGV site was stopped working this this afternoon. We were logged in when it suddenly told us that there were no contracts associated with our account. We have been owners since 2009 and this isn't the first time we have been subject to "website failures". I will be calling someone I know in the Florida corporate office tomorrow morning to find out about what is going on with the latest "MAX" treatment that we have received.


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## Hobokie (Apr 10, 2022)

NiteMaire said:


> Color me skeptical, but I don't think that's the driving factor for availability/trickling. I buy the integration, but think it's more systems integration.  Sure, they may prioritize certain properties, but they have to have to integrate the 2 systems or create a new one.
> Sales (and marketing) sure seem to focus the lack of quality with DRI resorts.  So much so, it almost makes me wonder why they purchased DRI.


I agree, I’m skeptical as well… I’ve only ever stayed at one  Diamond  property (Cabo Azul in Mexico) and it was by far the nicest timeshare I’ve ever stayed in… (for context, here’s my list so far… HGV Elara, HGV Marbrisa, HGV King’s Land, WM Marina Dunes, WM Angels Camp, WM Bass Lake, WM Windsor, Cabo Azul)


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## SmithOp (Apr 10, 2022)

It didn't take long for new HGV Max members to show up here, the Kool-aid must be tasty.

Another skeptic about billions in upgrades affecting limited availability as it's rolled out, surprised the creme de la creme sales guy didn't choke on that whopper.

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


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## JillAndrea (Apr 10, 2022)

Hobokie said:


> @JillAndrea, curious as to why you would buy Hawaii if you don’t think you will be going there much or ever? I understand trading out of BHC if not using since more expensive MF, but Hawaii is probably the next most expensive MF…? (I mean, if you don’t plan on using… why not buy in Vegas, for example, with much lower MFs?)



So this is going to sound like more convoluted BS, and maybe it is (!), but this was what was explained to us --- because we were in a BHC "trial" deed (we actually purchased 4 days at Central on 5th before it was built) we were eligible to trade it for a "price freeze rate" from 2019 on a deed for any property that was not yet available at the time we purchased the BHC NYC deed in 2019.  The Ocean Tower was not acquired until 2019, so were able to take advantage of this price freeze and got a lower price than what the current price would be.  We were able to choose from a few options at the Ocean Tower property, but the one we went with seemed to make the most sense.  We were also told that Hawaii may have better resale value in the future, but who knows if that is true.  I suppose it is possible that we may go to Hawaii one day, but it is not the top of our list right now.


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## WORLD TRAVELER (Apr 10, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> I copied this from another thread.  See #2 says "plus fees".... guessing this could be the 1k per deed?


Per the newly updated Member Guide on April 4th on page 26 the enrollment fee for Max is $7000 plus $199 per Contract Activation Fee.  If one owns 2 weeks, then the total to enroll both weeks should be $7398.


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## JillAndrea (Apr 10, 2022)

SmithOp said:


> It didn't take long for new HGV Max members to show up here, the Kool-aid must be tasty.
> 
> Another skeptic about billions in upgrades affecting limited availability as it's rolled out, surprised the creme de la creme sales guy didn't choke on that whopper.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


I wouldn't say we "drank the koolaide".  We were interested in expanding our HGV ownership. We got a good deal doubling our points and HGV Max was an unexpected bonus. And even better, we could afford what we purchased without financing (which never looks like a good deal to me!).  As dougp26364 stated earlier, if the ownership upgrade makes sense and HGV Max is included at no extra cost, then why not go forward?


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 10, 2022)

@JillAndrea Ha Ha you give me too much credit for "plus fees." I was referring to the fees below on the HGV Max Table
Increased club dues plus $199 activation fee + $450 ownership change fee = $649 in addition to the $7k Max.





Thanks for sharing your helpful story. If someone owns a retail and resale deed and buys a unit or upgrades to Max will the points associated with the resale work in DRI for MAX?


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## letsgobobby (Apr 10, 2022)

I don't know about 2019 prices, Max, or Kool aid. I do know OP has spent $47,000 for about 10,000 old annual points, which are available for about $10,000 or less in Vegas deeds with MF around $1500 total. Even with all the bonus points, that puts the cost of Max at ~$25,000. That's for six month access to DRI resorts, and six month access to DRI is of unknown-questionable-dubious value.

It seems like a lot. Not completely crazy, but high. I would want to know exactly what I was getting for my $25,000 - exactly what kind of availability at which resorts Max gets me - before upgrading to retail and then to Max.


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## SmithOp (Apr 10, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> I wouldn't say we "drank the koolaide". We were interested in expanding our HGV ownership. We got a good deal doubling our points and HGV Max was an unexpected bonus. And even better, we could afford what we purchased without financing (which never looks like a good deal to me!). As dougp26364 stated earlier, if the ownership upgrade makes sense and HGV Max is included at no extra cost, then why not go forward?


I too drank the Kool-aid over 20 years ago, paid cash also, so I don't mean it in an unkind way. Stick around and learn how to maximize what you own, and buy resale if you want more points.

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


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## frank808 (Apr 11, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> Hi All!
> 
> We are "newer" HGVC owners and just attended our owners update... and we bit! By newer I mean we purchased our first EOY HGVC deed in 2019, and then upgraded to an EY BHC deed six months later.
> 
> Also note that as an HGV Max member all reservation/booking fees are waived. Also we were told that HGV Max owners will have a unique website/app experience - HGV Max members will see the new HGV Max logo on the top left of homepage, and the site will have different access and features that traditional non-Max owners will not see.



I hope you knew that by owning a BHC property and paying the higher Club fees, that you already had reservation fees waived. You did not need to upgrade to max to get this.

Sent from my SM-T290 using Tapatalk


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## BingoBangoBongo (Apr 11, 2022)

letsgobobby said:


> I don't know about 2019 prices, Max, or Kool aid. I do know OP has spent $47,000 for *about 10,000 old annual points*, which are available for about $10,000 or less in Vegas deeds with MF around $1500 total. Even with all the bonus points, that puts the cost of Max at ~$25,000. That's for six month access to DRI resorts, and six month access to DRI is of unknown-questionable-dubious value.
> 
> It seems like a lot. Not completely crazy, but high. I would want to know exactly what I was getting for my $25,000 - exactly what kind of availability at which resorts Max gets me - before upgrading to retail and then to Max.



I believe the OP now has 10,080 new points, which would be 6300 old points.  It looks like it’s a Studio Premier in Gold Season.  OP corrected to a 1BR Premier in Gold.  With all the unknowns on what will actually be available at 6 months it seems like a leap of faith to me.


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 11, 2022)

frank808 said:


> I hope you knew that by owning a BHC property and paying the higher Club fees, that you already had reservation fees waived. You did not need to upgrade to max to get this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T290 using Tapatalk



Plus you get Honors Gold from bHC.

@JillAndrea Did they provide you with the ratio of new HGVC points to DRI points when you reserve DRI?  Is it 1:1? (I fear this is the case, since they just changed our points by 1.6x)

(for all) If the ratio is 1:1, a week at Point at Poipu in a 2 Bdrm during prime season runs 21,100 and Sedona 1 bdrms are about 15,000 in DRI points. Much more expensive than HGVC!  (15k - 20k vs. 11,200 (old 7000) points for a 2bdrm week). I am glad they are limiting DRI max to 6 months HGVC because DRI members will flood HGVC properties with all of their points because they will arbitrage into HGVC properties for more value. (I don't blame them, I would do the same.)

HGVC owners will need to reserve by 6 month or bHC by their resort to club deadline or they will not have access at all. What this also means is that higher point DRI properties such as P@P might become available at 6 months. Why stay one week in a  20,100 P@P when you can stay two weeks on the BI or Oahu for around 10k HGVC points for a 2bdrm in prime? These DRI properties are priced along the lines of the newer HGVC properties like Grand Islander and OT.

Perhaps this is by design to get everyone to buy more points.   Also, the lower point HGVCs tend to reserve first so perhaps it is intended that the remaining units at 6 months will be the higher point HGVC units that few reserve (goodbye Open Season Availability for these HGVC properties). However trading HGVC to DRI makes the HGVC Max value worse because all that are left are the relatively high point DRIs.

*The ratio of HGV points to DRI points for reservations is key to MAX.* If 1:1 is true, it is not worth blowing a year+ of points for a reservation on DRI when I can get 1 - 2 weeks in HGVC. Plus pay $7k for "the privilege" (and potentially not have access to the best DRI properties at 6 months).

I hope my analysis is wrong and the ratios are different. Please tell me otherwise.


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## JillAndrea (Apr 11, 2022)

frank808 said:


> I hope you knew that by owning a BHC property and paying the higher Club fees, that you already had reservation fees waived. You did not need to upgrade to max to get this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T290 using Tapatalk


We have always paid reservation fees, even after purchasing BHC.. $59 per booking. But we were not staying at our home property... perhaps that is why? Also keep in mind that we did not upgrade to Max for the waived reservation fees. The take-away for us was doubling our deed/point value and expanding the resort portfolio.


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## JillAndrea (Apr 11, 2022)

BingoBangoBongo said:


> I believe the OP now has 10,080 new points, which would be 6300 old points.  It looks like it’s a Studio Premier in Gold Season.  With all the unknowns on what will actually be available at 6 months it seems like a leap of faith to me.


We purchased a 1 bedroom king premier in gold season.


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## JillAndrea (Apr 11, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Plus you get Honors Gold from bHC.
> 
> @JillAndrea Did they provide you with the ratio of new HGVC points to DRI points when you reserve DRI?  Is it 1:1? (I fear this is the case, since they just changed our points by 1.6x)
> 
> ...


Yes, the ratio is 1:1.  This is the reason HGV recalibrate its point values +60%... so all properties would use the same point system.


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## dayooper (Apr 11, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> We have always paid reservation fees, even after purchasing BHC.. $59 per booking. But we were not staying at our home property... perhaps that is why? Also keep in mind that we did not upgrade to Max for the waived reservation fees. The take-away for us was doubling our deed/point value and expanding the resort portfolio.



With bHC, if you add on the All Inclusive fee option, you wouldn't have paid anything for your booking fees. 

My guess is the next sales presentation you attend, you will told this deed isn't very good or good enough for you so you will need to spend more and update. They will tell you that your membership is sub par until you achieve the next tier of status. It's why they keep upping the requirements with new tiers so they can keep selling those with an extreme amount of points the idea of achieving a greater status. The new level (Centium) is almost double the amount of points as previous high tier.


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 11, 2022)

If 1:1 then 1.6x is a significant devaluation of the HGVC points system relative to DRI because most Diamond owners will have 1.5x the number of points.  15,000 DRI 1 bdrm or 2 bdrm non peak vs. 11, 200 (old 7000)  or 15,360 (old 9600).

What is the average number of points owned by a DRI owner?

Max is sounding like a great deal for DRI (if they don't have significant buy-in price) and not so good deal for HGVC owners unless they have a lot of points to burn. This is all conjecture so need to learn more.


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## dayooper (Apr 11, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> *The ratio of HGV points to DRI points for reservations is key to MAX.* If 1:1 is true, it is not worth blowing a year+ of points for a reservation on DRI when I can get 1 - 2 weeks in HGVC. Plus pay $7k for "the privilege" (and potentially not have access to the best DRI properties at 6 months).



My guess is if someone wants to go to Kauai, Maui, Sedona, Tahoe or Virginia Beach on a regular basis, you might just want to purchase a resale deed there. The cost would be much less and you will have a better chance to get the exact date you want.


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## dayooper (Apr 11, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> If 1:1 then 1.6x is a significant devaluation of the HGVC points system relative to DRI because most Diamond owners will have almost 1.5x the number of points.  15,000 DRI 1 bdrm or 2 bdrm non peak vs. 11, 200 (old 7000)  or 15,360 (old 9600).



If you want to book DRI resorts, yes it is. Then again, I agree with many that HGV Max is just for marketing and sales. The ability to sell prospective buyers on the increased amount of resorts is key. Most won't realize how restrictive the 6 month window is when booking resorts they want. Maybe as more DRI resorts get added to the HGV Max listing, they will open up the window a bit, but I doubt it.


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 11, 2022)

@JillAndrea FWIW if it is not too late, I would rescind and buy Vegas resale 7k deed  for < $8k.  You could buy two of those for < $17k adding 14,000 old points for about $2000 MF. Add your existing 5k old and you now have 30,400 new points for $17k.

If you want Max just pay the $7k fee or trade these resales in for an upgrade in if you desire. You still own a retail deed so are eligible for the program.

Alternatively buy one old 7k Vegas Deed for $8k all in ($1000 MF) and Buy Max $7000 and for $15k you have 12,000 old points (7k + 5k) /19.200 new, plus Max. Then you could sell or give away your old property if you don't want the MF.

This would give you 11,200 new points (7000 old) at $1000 MF plus access to MAX.   More than your 5k points today, lower MF than today AND MAX for about $15k all in (a savings of $2000) Plus you can add more resales after you added MAX if you want more points.


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## BingoBangoBongo (Apr 11, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> We purchased a 1 bedroom king premier in gold season.



I didn't see those 1BR's when I looked at the chart.   I still think you have spent a lot of $ with still a lot of uncertainty around Max.  I agree with the advice CalGalTraveler posted abouve this and rescind if it's not too late.  Take a step back to see how this all shakes out.  You have spent a lot of $ and honestly don't have a ton of points to use.  Personally I think a 6 month booking window will be useless for hot locations.


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## Hobokie (Apr 11, 2022)

@CalGalTraveler & @BingoBangoBongo , the OP already told us she did this about a month ago and therefore she can't rescind...  But hopefully she understands the math we are trying to explain here and this can better inform her decision in the future, right @JillAndrea ?


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## Mongoose (Apr 11, 2022)

I'm also skeptical on how much actual product will be available inside of six months.  Seems like leftovers.  I wonder if they can put in requests 18 months out to get priority on cancelations?  To me, DRI just does not seem to be worth the MF premiums.


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## BingoBangoBongo (Apr 11, 2022)

Hobokie said:


> @CalGalTraveler & @BingoBangoBongo , the OP already told us she did this about a month ago and therefore she can't rescind...  But hopefully she understands the math we are trying to explain here and this can better inform her decision in the future, right @JillAndrea ?



The first sentence in the first post said "just attended".


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## Mongoose (Apr 11, 2022)

dayooper said:


> If you want to book DRI resorts, yes it is. Then again, I agree with many that HGV Max is just for marketing and sales. The ability to sell prospective buyers on the increased amount of resorts is key. Most won't realize how restrictive the 6 month window is when booking resorts they want. Maybe as more DRI resorts get added to the HGV Max listing, they will open up the window a bit, but I doubt it.


This entire thing sounds like a copy of TravelShare with Worldmark and Wyndham.  A very small minority that pay for it ever get any decent locations/times and based on the feedback they often get better options with RCI.


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## JillAndrea (Apr 11, 2022)

BingoBangoBongo said:


> I didn't see those 1BR's when I looked at the chart.   I still think you have spent a lot of $ with still a lot of uncertainty around Max.  I agree with the advice CalGalTraveler posted abouve this and rescind if it's not too late.  Take a step back to see how this all shakes out.  You have spent a lot of $ and honestly don't have a ton of points to use.  Personally I think a 6 month booking window will be useless for hot locations.


You have to scroll down.  There are 3 room types for 10080 pts in Gold.  Ours is the 1 Bedroom Premier Small.  In the contract it is listed as type VIII which is the King version (as opposed to 2 doubles).

We are not going to rescind.  I appreciate all the feedback, and I suppose we will learn as we go, but at this time we feel we got exactly what we were looking for.  Perhaps naive, but we will see!


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## JillAndrea (Apr 11, 2022)

BingoBangoBongo said:


> The first sentence in the first post said "just attended".


We attended on Friday, but we are not going to rescind.  We believe what we have now is better for us than what we had before.


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## Hobokie (Apr 11, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> We attended on Friday, but we are not going to rescind.  We believe what we have now is better for us than what we had before.


@JillAndrea not trying to be pushy, just doing what we do here on TUG (educating ourselves and each other!) on timeshare ownership... would you be open to someone explaining it to you with numbers/math in case you might reconsider?  There's no shame in this game, most owners here bought from the developer vs resale originally and learned the ropes only AFTER finding TUG.  I'm one of the lucky ones, but many on here were in a similar boat to yours! @SmithOp who replied to this thread is one example... 

If you're open to a detailed explanation with numbers on why you should rescind, let us know and someone can take a stab at explaining this at a very basic level so anyone can follow.


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## Nowaker (Apr 11, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> If 1:1 then 1.6x is a significant devaluation of the HGVC points system relative to DRI because most Diamond owners will have 1.5x the number of points. 15,000 DRI 1 bdrm or 2 bdrm non peak vs. 11, 200 (old 7000) or 15,360 (old 9600).



What is the MFpp in DRI? If they pay more MF and get more points, it all equals out.


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## Nowaker (Apr 11, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> We have always paid reservation fees, even after purchasing BHC.. $59 per booking. But we were not staying at our home property... perhaps that is why?



No, that's not why you paid it. You paid booking fees because you didn't enroll for all-inclusive booking fees - an option available to BHC owners only. Rather than pay $193 club fee, you'd pay a bit more ($300-ish), and you get free booking fees - but you have to enroll.


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 11, 2022)

@JillAndrea I am also an owner who paid retail and now have resales. I also enrolled in bHC AI and get all reservations for all properties free.

Would be happy to discuss the numbers I shared above. Your deal is not terrible - It's your money but you will get more bang for the buck with resale.


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## Shmiddy (Apr 11, 2022)

We went through the same high pressure sales pitch with a real sense of urgency - if we don't act now were going to lose bigtime. Her offer was the minimum to upgrade, $10k plus fees, for an additional 1500 points and HGV max. No thanks - we didn't bite and I feel like we dodged a bullet. Looks like decent properties won't be available for a few years - plus - if I read the rules correctly, access will be 6 months out. So only the left overs.


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## Mongoose (Apr 11, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> What is the MFpp in DRI? If they pay more MF and get more points, it all equals out.


In my observations they pay much higher MFs per equivalent stay.  I don't have the raw numbers, but it appears that they charge maybe 35% premium above HGVC for a week for the same room type.


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## Nowaker (Apr 11, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> We were also told that Hawaii may have better resale value in the future, but who knows if that is true.



Not true at all. The only resorts that could potentially have a better resale value in the future are 2 BRs (or larger) in ski resorts with Christmas/NYE fixed weeks, but it would take decades before the market value catches up with the overinflated retail price it's sold for. If you're paying a 3x premium for going retail, and assuming an average annual appreciation of 5%, that's 22 years to catch up. As of year 23, you'd technically sell for more than you paid, but don't forget about the inflation. At an average inflation rate of ~2.5%, that money is worth only 57% of what it was originally worth. So in reality, you're still far away from a goal of "better resale value". Your 5% appreciation in real estate must now catch up with the 2.5% inflation. Another 20 years before it breaks even.

x = resale value appreciation rate (assuming 1.05)
y = average inflation rate (assuming 1.025)
z = average appreciation without inflation (1.05 - 0.025 = 1.025)

r = resale market value
3r = retail price (assuming 3x the price of resale)

b = number of years to break even (the point after which "better resale value in the future" is true)

3r = rz^b
b = ln(3) / ln(z)

So, as expected, the resale value is eliminated from the equation.

b = ln(3) / ln(1.025) = 44.5 years.

It will take 44.5 years to break even. After that point, you will start realizing the promise of "better resale value in the future", at a 2.5% rate every year.

Now, be aware I assumed a very conservative 3x premium on paying a retail price. It's probably closer to 5x. ln(5) / ln(1.025) = 65 years, if it's 5x premium.


If you're interested in resale values, LEGO sets are a better investment, with an average appreciation value of 11% per year. The buy-in cost is your first year's appreciation (it will be spent on sales tax), year two and beyond is pure appreciation.


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## bogey21 (Apr 11, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> We attended on Friday, but we are not going to rescind.  We believe what we have now is better for us than what we had before.


If you are happy, that is all that matters...

George


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## natarajanv (Apr 11, 2022)

letsgobobby said:


> I don't know about 2019 prices, Max, or Kool aid. I do know OP has spent $47,000 for about *10,000 old annual points*, which are available for about $10,000 or less in Vegas deeds with MF around $1500 total. Even with all the bonus points, that puts the cost of Max at ~$25,000. That's for six month access to DRI resorts, and six month access to DRI is of unknown-questionable-dubious value.
> 
> It seems like a lot. Not completely crazy, but high. I would want to know exactly what I was getting for my $25,000 - exactly what kind of availability at which resorts Max gets me - before upgrading to retail and then to Max.



I believe it is 10080 new points (6300 old points)


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## Nowaker (Apr 11, 2022)

bogey21 said:


> If you are happy, that is all that matters...



Yes, totally agreed.

Just don't base your happiness on false promises. Know the facts and numbers. Because if you learn the facts and numbers later, happiness will shatter.


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## Hobokie (Apr 11, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> Yes, totally agreed.
> 
> Just don't base your happiness on false promises. Know the facts and numbers. Because if you learn the facts and numbers later, happiness will shatter.


Agree with @Nowaker and the OP still has time to rescind! Also agree with @bogey21 , but maybe the “happiness” is coming from a place of “we think we’re better off with this upgrade” when in fact, once the numbers are crunched the OP might realize she is not better off…


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## frank808 (Apr 11, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> We have always paid reservation fees, even after purchasing BHC.. $59 per booking. But we were not staying at our home property... perhaps that is why? Also keep in mind that we did not upgrade to Max for the waived reservation fees. The take-away for us was doubling our deed/point value and expanding the resort portfolio.


Hmm I added a bHC property just so that I would have the All Inclusive reservation fees. I have not paid a reservation fee for at least 2 years. It has been a great money saver for us. Plus I can cancel within 31 days and not loose my reservation fee.

We own around 62000 HGVC points and 12400 bHC points preconversion. Because we were spending $800+ in reservation fees annually, we acquired a bHC to save on that. All deeds are platinum except one gold bHC deed. We spent about $12K total to buy (includes closing and HGVC enrollment fees) these deeds. Last HGVC deed was purchased around 2010. While the bHC deeds were just acquired a couple years ago. If doing it again, I would buy at the Boulevard as the MF ratio is better than the Kohala properties we own now. I guess, what I am trying to say, not rush in and be methodical with a TS purchase. Especially when being promised some unknowns. 

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 11, 2022)

@JillAndrea Please consider rescinding while you have time. There is no rush to buy this upgrade* (Max and the upgrade will still be there if you buy a month or two from now)* but you have only ONE chance to rescind or be stuck with your decision.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to research your options. You can pull the trigger later if you still want this deal.

Take it from someone who has been there. We bought retail  on our first deal and augmented it with resales. I am still kicking myself after many years by how much we overpaid for retail. Our unit is worth pennies on the dollars we spent and it is prime real estate. *HGVC is doing nothing for ROFR to support the value*. I see Hawaiian resales at newer resorts going for a fraction of retail. They will do the same to you once they start their next project.

No doubt you can afford it (we can too) however once you realize the resale prices you will see why. If you go through with this you have effectively paid *$47k for a 10,000 deed plus access to a Max program with no benefits in writing.* You already have free reservations with your bHC (if you use your benefit and enroll) you already have Gold Honors status too. You can always buy MAX if you find value for DRI because you already qualify with your existing deed.

Of course this is your money. Some people pay a premium for cars some like 1 year dealer certified for the same car. YMMV as to what makes you happy and sleep at night. If you could buy that Mercedes for a fraction of the price wouldn't you want to at least evaluate that route before you buy?


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## escanoe (Apr 11, 2022)

@JillAndrea

Welcome to TUG! Some of us have strong feelings and are passionate about certain views or beliefs. I appreciate that diverse views are represented here and that not everyone sees everything the same way. While we may have some rough edges, this is one heck of a place to learn how to get the most out of any timeshare and to learn the ins and outs of the systems.


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 11, 2022)

@JillAndrea Did they disclose to you the fact that OT is being developed and the MF *May* be subsidized? Check their docs because the fees may increase dramatically once they sell out and move to their next project.

Recommend to take your time, rescind and research this.


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## youppi (Apr 11, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> If 1:1 then 1.6x is a significant devaluation of the HGVC points system relative to DRI because most Diamond owners will have 1.5x the number of points.  15,000 DRI 1 bdrm or 2 bdrm non peak vs. 11, 200 (old 7000)  or 15,360 (old 9600).
> 
> What is the average number of points owned by a DRI owner?
> 
> Max is sounding like a great deal for DRI (if they don't have significant buy-in price) and not so good deal for HGVC owners unless they have a lot of points to burn. This is all conjecture so need to learn more.


I don't know about other collections but in the HI Collection, the average was 20k points in 2019 as per the data I extracted from https://owners.diamondresorts.com/w..._25_CSH_Annual_Meeting_Presentation_final.pdf


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## Mongoose (Apr 11, 2022)

youppi said:


> I don't know about other collections but in the HI Collection, the average was 20k points in 2019 as per the data I extracted from https://owners.diamondresorts.com/w..._25_CSH_Annual_Meeting_Presentation_final.pdf
> View attachment 51495


That also means the average MFs are $3846, Yikes as of 2019.  More like $4,500 in 2022.


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## youppi (Apr 11, 2022)

Mongoose said:


> That also means the average MFs are $3846, Yikes as of 2019.  More like $4,500 in 2022.


Not $4,500. ~$4,000 in 2022 for 20k points
see https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...eK7b2lFwXV-U4W9W3hMcAiNbej8gAmOvP5YG/pubhtml#


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## Nowaker (Apr 11, 2022)

youppi said:


> ~$4,000 in 2022 for 20k points


Ooooowwww shit, $0.20 MFpp. That's not much better than Elara Studio Gold - at $0.26 MFpp, and equal to Elara Studio Platinum - $0.19 MFpp. Wow, that's really really bad. 

I'm sitting at an average of $0.102 across all my properties, and these all deeds cost me only $14,872.70 to acquire. Three of them were free - two only came with closing costs, and one had closing costs covered. (Overall, Platinum deeds are better, but if you acquire LV Gold packed with points for free, it pays for itself even with subpar MFpp. You can offload a deed at a later point anyway)


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## Mongoose (Apr 11, 2022)

youppi said:


> Not $4,500. ~$4,000 in 2022 for 20k points
> see https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...eK7b2lFwXV-U4W9W3hMcAiNbej8gAmOvP5YG/pubhtml#


I was avg 5% per year in increases.  Looks like they have managed better than that a few years.  Still I pay $.14 for HGVC Bay Club.  That's a 40%+ premium for DRI.


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 11, 2022)

@youppi Thanks for sharing. Wow! This floors me. (correct me if I am wrong) $4000/week in MF for 20k points to stay in 2 bdrm P@P in HI? That's close to rental rates but with the obligation.

It sounds like HGV opted to stabilize the costs across both communities making it slightly higher but not equal. This will incent DRI owners to swap for HGVC deeds in sales offices to get better MF/Pt value.

Unfortunately, this is a devaluation of HGV points. There is no way I would spend 20k HGVC points to go to DRI Hawaii in a 2 bdrm when I can spend 10500 -15,000 points with HGVC for same. (or $2800/week at our Westin Oceanfront next door to KBC.  $1400/week in OF Maui if we lock it off and stay 2 weeks.)

With 6 months DRI, plus we already have AI and Gold with bHC. I am questioning the value of MAX.


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## GT75 (Apr 11, 2022)

I agree with you @CalGalTraveler.   I already have no desire to spend the required large number of points for some of the newer HGVC resorts such as Crane, Las Pacifica, & Maui Bay Villas.


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## Nowaker (Apr 11, 2022)

GT75 said:


> spend the required large number of points for some of the newer HGVC resorts such as(...) Maui Bay Villas



That being said, 2 BR in Maui is pretty dope. Very spacious, great furniture, good location, and the best pool I've seen to date at any HGVC (see my pics and review: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/h...br-ada-unit-resort-pool-pics-56-total.335062/). For its 20,160 pts cost, it's still quite expensive, but it's definitely worth more than the "standard" 11,200 pts. I'd say 15,000-ish would be a fair value, and the +25% premium is for the only HGVC on Maui. I'm not expecting a lot of availability even after they've finished the whole project.


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## GT75 (Apr 11, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> For its 20,160 pts cost, it's still quite expensive, but it's definitely worth more than the "standard" 11,200 pts. I'd say 15,000-ish would be a fair value, and the +25% premium is for the only HGVC on Maui.


Here are my examples:




Maui Bay Villas




Sunrise Lodge


Now, you have been to Maui Bay Villas and I have seen your review.    I haven't so have only looked at the pics.   I am really not impressed.   I certainly can obviously be wrong but I don't understand the point requirements.   (btw, I have been to Sunrise Lodge many times).


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## letsgobobby (Apr 11, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> Ooooowwww shit, $0.20 MFpp. That's not much better than Elara Studio Gold - at $0.26 MFpp, and equal to Elara Studio Platinum - $0.19 MFpp. Wow, that's really really bad.
> 
> I'm sitting at an average of $0.102 across all my properties, and these all deeds cost me only $14,872.70 to acquire. Three of them were free - two only came with closing costs, and one had closing costs covered. (Overall, Platinum deeds are better, but if you acquire LV Gold packed with points for free, it pays for itself even with subpar MFpp. You can offload a deed at a later point anyway)
> 
> View attachment 51504


True but not an apples and apples comparison. It would be understandable if Hawaii properties had higher MF/point in DRI as they do in HGVC. Some of us are happy to pay those because we get first dibs on reservations during the home week booking window. 

Many HGVC HI are 15 cents/point. That's a great deal to me. Now DRI is 1/3 more than that but they have some locations HGVC doesn't, and what would that be worth? If I really wanted to go to Maui every year, 20 cents doesn't seem insane.


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 11, 2022)

To add to @GT75 points:  Assuming at 3 Bdrm Maui at .10 /pt that's $3840/week in points. That is not even Oceanfront (best is across the road). At .15/point (Vegas) that's $5760/week!

At  .10 still good value compared to renting but when you compare to the resale true Oceanfront Westins on Kaanapali up the island at $2400 - $2800/week MF for a 2 bdrm. It makes you wonder. Note Westins are only 2 bdrm units so smaller than 3 bdrm so would expect some difference but a big difference if your points cost basis higher.


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## Nowaker (Apr 12, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> At .15/point (Vegas) that's $5760/week!



MFpp of Vegas 2 BR Gold Blvd/Paradise, Studio Platinum Trump, or 1 BR Grand Elara deeds is $0.12. Whereas 2 BR Platinum is $0.10 (Flamingo) or a little lower than that (Paradise/Boulevard). $0.15 must be some subpar deeds that aren't even worth looking at, given 2 BR Gold Blvd/Paradise can be had for not much, often for free if you look around.


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## NiteMaire (Apr 12, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @youppi Thanks for sharing. Wow! This floors me. (correct me if I am wrong) $4000/week in MF for 20k points to stay in 2 bdrm P@P in HI? That's close to rental rates but with the obligation.


Or you can purchase 2BR LO at Sedona Summit and use DeX to trade into 2BR at P@P for 2 weeks with the following views:
Garden View/partial ocean view: $1478 total ($739/week)
Ocean View: $1928 total ($964/week)
Ocean Front: $2378 total ($1189/week)


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## SmithOp (Apr 12, 2022)

So I'm wondering if HGV will shut DRI resales out of DEX without a developer purchase like what is happening with HGX Max...

When discussing MFpp are we all using the new point values now? Mine has dropped down to 8 cents, but obviously it doesn't affect my weekly cost.

I was just looking at open season rates, there are a ton of Grand Islander nights available at decent rates compared to points, must be nice for Hawaii resident members...

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


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## Mongoose (Apr 12, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @youppi Thanks for sharing. Wow! This floors me. (correct me if I am wrong) $4000/week in MF for 20k points to stay in 2 bdrm P@P in HI? That's close to rental rates but with the obligation.
> 
> It sounds like HGV opted to stabilize the costs across both communities making it slightly higher but not equal. This will incent DRI owners to swap for HGVC deeds in sales offices to get better MF/Pt value.
> 
> ...


I’m not sure it devalues HGVC.  There won’t be much availability at 6 months.


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## Hobokie (Apr 12, 2022)

I think we lost the OP  @Grammarhero dow we only keep track of our wins (owners saved and having rescinded on time?)or do we also count “our failures”?


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 12, 2022)

Nowaker said:


> MFpp of Vegas 2 BR Gold Blvd/Paradise, Studio Platinum Trump, or 1 BR Grand Elara deeds is $0.12. Whereas 2 BR Platinum is $0.10 (Flamingo) or a little lower than that (Paradise/Boulevard). $0.15 must be some subpar deeds that aren't even worth looking at, given 2 BR Gold Blvd/Paradise can be had for not much, often for free if you look around.



Got it. I was calculating with old point values. New points are lower cost per point. Got to get my head around this 1.6x!


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## escanoe (Apr 12, 2022)

Hobokie said:


> I think we lost the OP  @Grammarhero dow we only keep track of our wins (owners saved and having rescinded on time?)or do we also count “our failures”?



And why is this a failure or worse a collective "our failure?" Someone was informed and got what they wanted. I say it was a success and thank you to the OP. Without developer sales, there would be no resale market.

I am pro-resale for my families' needs ..... but there is no reason for the TUG community to see our dogma not spreading to others as a wrong that must be corrected. The motto at TUG is "telling the truth about timeshares." We miss that goal every once in a while by mistake, but this thread hit the mark in my view.


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## dayooper (Apr 12, 2022)

escanoe said:


> And why is this a failure or worse a collective "our failure?" Somone was informed and got what they wanted. I say it was a success and thank you to the OP. Without developer sales, there would be no resale market.
> 
> I am pro-resale for my families' needs ..... but there is no reason for the TUG community to see our dogma not spreading to others as a wrong that must be corrected. The motto at TUG is "telling the truth about timeshares." We miss that goal every once in a while by mistake, this thread hit the mark in my view.



To add on, some people aren't just comfortable with buying resale. If they have been to a few sales presentations or have heard that resales aren't trustworthy, it would be harder to change their perception. I learned of HGVC from a friend who bought from the developer years ago, but suggested I look into resale so I never had the idea that resale is horrible like many have. Some people like the status of buying from the developer or like the idea of being elite. Just because I don't see the value of buying from the developer or earning elite status doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way I do.

If @JillAndrea feels that buying through the developer is best for them (and they can afford it), why not? @CalGalTraveler mentions about buying used over new cars above, we always buy new. We have an employee discount and like the security of a full warranty and if my car is not working, it will be fixed at no cost (at least for the first few years). They employee discount allows us to not research prices on new cars as my price is fixed. The used cars we have bought had issues and we feel that the extra cost of buying a new car is worth the money to avoid the hassle of researching prices and going over the car we will buy to avoid major issues.

This community is awesome and has allowed my family to take vacations we normally couldn't take. The collective wisdom has been great and I'm sure we all will find the best route for us with the new changes to our system.


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## Hobokie (Apr 12, 2022)

escanoe said:


> And why is this a failure or worse a collective "our failure?" Someone was informed and got what they wanted. I say it was a success and thank you to the OP. Without developer sales, there would be no resale market.
> 
> I am pro-resale for my families' needs ..... but there is no reason for the TUG community to see our dogma not spreading to others as a wrong that must be corrected. The motto at TUG is "telling the truth about timeshares." We miss that goal every once in a while by mistake, but this thread hit the mark in my view.


I was probably careless with my wording!  I merely mean we somehow failed to communicate the points that would even make someone second-guess/understand that possible additional research would be needed.  I agree with you though @escanoe , nothing "wrong" happened here. Everyone should do what makes them happy!


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 12, 2022)

I don't fault the OP for her choice. It is hers to make. Tug provides the entire set of options because she only had a one-sided view. 

Perhaps we sometimes beat the resale drum too hard (myself included). Some like the comfort and convenience of buying in a sales office.  That's why we bought our first retail sale. Buying resales takes time and risk. Some don't want to bother and have other priorities. If my DH bought timeshares he would have bought all retail and said "buy and move on. I don't have time to worry about this."

This also helps others (including myself) internalize MAX and retail upsales. It will help others with their decision too.  I am thankful she shared her perspective.


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## JillAndrea (Apr 12, 2022)

Hobokie said:


> I think we lost the OP  @Grammarhero dow we only keep track of our wins (owners saved and having rescinded on time?)or do we also count “our failures”?


You didn't lose me!  I work a lot, but I have been reading... taking it all in.  My husband will probably join the forum, he is interested in all the insights and feedback.

We did discuss all the input provided... and we are not rescinding what we purchased.  We'll play it out and see how it goes.

But thank you all for your comments! I appreciate the wealth of knowledge and passion!

Jill


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## Mongoose (Apr 12, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> You didn't lose me!  I work a lot, but I have been reading... taking it all in.  My husband will probably join the forum, he is interested in all the insights and feedback.
> 
> We did discuss all the input provided... and we are not rescinding what we purchased.  We'll play it out and see how it goes.
> 
> ...


I call that a Win.  I hope you stay and enjoy the forum.  Lots to learn on how to fully benefit from your timeshare.


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## Nomad420 (Apr 12, 2022)

frank808 said:


> I hope you knew that by owning a BHC property and paying the higher Club fees, that you already had reservation fees waived. You did not need to upgrade to max to get this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T290 using Tapatalk


My thoughts exactly being a BHC owner.


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## JillAndrea (Apr 12, 2022)

Nomad420 said:


> My thoughts exactly being a BHC owner.



Not sure if I mentioned that our BHC purchase was classified as a "trial" - I was always under the impression that it was because it was a 4-day deed (Tuesday-Saturday) in a property that had not yet been built.  At the time we just wanted to expand from an EOY deed to an EY deed and the points stayed the same, so we were not focusing much on the BHC aspect of property.  In retrospect I wonder if we were not eligible for the "no reservation fee" option because of the "trial" status?  Who knows.


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## letsgobobby (Apr 12, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I don't fault the OP for her choice. It is hers to make. Tug provides the entire set of options because she only had a one-sided view.
> 
> Perhaps we sometimes beat the resale drum too hard (myself included). Some like the comfort and convenience of buying in a sales office.  That's why we bought our first retail sale. Buying resales takes time and risk. Some don't want to bother and have other priorities. If my DH bought timeshares he would have bought all retail and said "buy and move on. I don't have time to worry about this."
> 
> This also helps others (including myself) internalize MAX and retail upsales. It will help others with their decision too.  I am thankful she shared her perspective.


My first HGVC was resale; but I researched for NINE years before taking the plunge! Not everybody - maybe nobody else - is willing to wait that long!


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## escanoe (Apr 12, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> Not sure if I mentioned that our BHC purchase was classified as a "trial" - I was always under the impression that it was because it was a 4-day deed (Tuesday-Saturday) in a property that had not yet been built.  At the time we just wanted to expand from an EOY deed to an EY deed and the points stayed the same, so we were not focusing much on the BHC aspect of property.  In retrospect I wonder if we were not eligible for the "no reservation fee" option because of the "trial" status?  Who knows.



There is a lot of nitpicking in this thread. You were eligible for the more expensive "no reservation fee" type of membership as a bHC owner. However, considering you had 5,000 points (going back to the original post) I seriously doubt you were making enough reservations in a year to have benefited from the increased membership fee.


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## BingoBangoBongo (Apr 12, 2022)

letsgobobby said:


> My first HGVC was resale; but* I researched for NINE* years before taking the plunge! Not everybody - maybe nobody else - is willing to wait that long!




Only took me five to get the math to work


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## Pathways (Apr 12, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> Not sure if I mentioned that our BHC purchase was classified as a "trial" - I was always under the impression that it was because it was a 4-day deed (Tuesday-Saturday) in a property that had not yet been built.  At the time we just wanted to expand from an EOY deed to an EY deed and the points stayed the same, so we were not focusing much on the BHC aspect of property.  In retrospect I wonder if we were not eligible for the "no reservation fee" option because of the "trial" status?  Who knows.


I have seen 1 or 2 others reference their short week purchase as a "trial'.  Reality is, it was a purchase exactly like everyone else, just a unique 'mini' deed sold in NY.

Sales just uses that term when they feel it will overcome some possible barriers to making a sale with their prospect. It also sets the stage to upsell the prospect the next time they attend a sales presentation.  'You just bought a 'trial', let's get you into a 'real' week - only another 15k!!


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## DRIless (Apr 12, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> I don't know all the details, but our contract states that all HGVC properties remain a 9 month booking window, and all DRI properties will have a 6 month booking window.  If Embarc and CI were owned and operated by Diamond Resorts then it is a 6 month booking window for HGV Owners.  The way I see it, the DRI owners seem to be getting the brunt of this acquisition, so they have to give them lead time on what they own.
> 
> For us that is not so critical.  Our travel style is very ad hoc... find a place that is available and either hop in the car or book a flight and go.  My husband and I both have flexible work situations and can work from anywhere as long as there is decent internet access). This is another reason why the offer was so appealing to us.... lots more northeast locations we can drive to.  I am looking forward to Quebec, Toronto, and Kennebunk resorts though they won't be among the first available.


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## Msb1102 (Apr 12, 2022)

Somebody has got to buy the deeds at retail so we can bail them out of their mistakes (at a 99% discount) 5 years later.

These new resorts and $200 gift cards for owner updates gotta get paid for some how.

You can only give so much advice. What they do with is up to them. If they come here and save, great. If they come and then decide to keep retail, also great (for us).


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## alwysonvac (Apr 12, 2022)

JillAndrea said:


> ….For our current purchase we have upgraded to an EY 10080pt HGVC deed at Ocean Tower in HI for 17k +17K bonus pts and HGV Max.  *We are all in for ~47K, *no financing and our maintenance fees have not changed.  We are not likely ever going to Hawaii, but were primarily *after more points and more location flexibility*- which is exactly what we got.



Rescind and research is always the preferred option since timeshare owners only have only one chance to rescind compared to endless opportunities to buy from the developer (if you still want to go down that path after your research  ).

You’re on your third purchase from the developer. Going from $30k in sunken cost to close to $50k with this most recent upgrade. The sales team will always come up with some new excuse on why you need to spend additional $$ (more points, higher status, lower maintenance fees, newest resort, new program, etc.). They‘re not looking out for your best interest, like any salesman they’re looking to make their commission.

*If you decide a week, month or year from now that you want out, you will be lucky to get back $6,300 ($1/point) for your one bedroom Gold week (originally 6300 points).*

Here’s the asking price for a one bedroom platinum resale from Redweek.com (link)




*More resorts might seems like a major enhancement but is it really at locations that are on your bucket list? 
Look at the map below. Would you really visit these new DRI locations more than once? Is it worth the extra cost?*


From HGVC March 2021 Presentation (link)​


*For some resort/locations/travel periods, demand will always be greater than the supply (peak ski season, summer beach weeks, major holidays/events, etc). *As a result, popular resorts/locations/unit types are immediately grabbed as soon as the booking window opens. These occurs in all timeshare systems. Opening up inventory several months later via HGVC MAX will only mean little to no availability especially during peak travel weeks and/or at high demand resorts/locations.

Some examples within HGVC








						Any updates on Ocean Oak
					

I know several people have noted the total lack of availability at Ocean Oak (Hilton Head) through the end of 2020.  Did anyone ever get an answer from HGV why this is the case?  (I've tried to read through the threads... I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere.)




					tugbbs.com
				










						HGVC Barbados at the Crane Availability
					

Has anyone booked a stay here at the 9 month window recently? Wondering what availability is like? I was thinking of booking for Presidents Day week in 2022. Should I start walking a reservation now? It’s particularly annoying to do that since this resort can not be booked on the app, and would...




					tugbbs.com
				










						Tips on booking Hilton Vilamoura during high season
					

We have checked for the past few years (minus this one) to try to get this property but, of course, we want to go in summer. Any non-owners ever have luck getting a unit in July? Just wondering if it is really possible!! Thanks in advance.




					tugbbs.com
				










						Question about walking reservations
					

Just a quick question on walking a reservation. Is it better to already have an existing reservation and change it or start a brand new reservation? Does the time you take entering your credit card for the transaction make it more difficult to book those popular resorts? When I walked a...




					tugbbs.com
				


​
*Beware of affiliated resorts within any timeshare system. It may mean limited availability depending on the arrangement.*

Some examples within HGVC









						HGCV Florida Gulf Coast
					

There are 17 resorts on Florida West Coast broken down into  9 on Captiva Island 3 on Sanibel Island 5 on Marco Island  Has anyone done a better analysis such as the most desirable locations or tips on how to book them?  They all appear to have limited availability and are hard to book.  I see a...




					tugbbs.com
				










						Why Reservations are Limited at Legacy Affiliates
					

We just returned from a stay at Plantation Beach Club - Indian River Plantation. While there I had an interesting conversation with the on-site HGVC sales-rep...  Amanda has been there 19 years and she's more a transfer + enrollment agent. There's no active sales operation, but she'll mention...




					tugbbs.com
				



Good Luck and Welcome to TUG


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## SmithOp (Apr 13, 2022)

thanks @alwysonvac I had forgotten that investor PowerPoint from the acquisition last year, interesting to compare now that Max is rolling out.

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


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## brp (Apr 13, 2022)

dayooper said:


> My guess is if someone wants to go to Kauai, Maui, Sedona, Tahoe or Virginia Beach on a regular basis, you might just want to purchase a resale deed there. The cost would be much less and you will have a better chance to get the exact date you want.



This is precisely what I have in mind for the future.

Cheers.


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## letsgobobby (Apr 13, 2022)

Assuming you mean buying through DRI, the downside is higher MF and having to learn a whole new system. Obviously earlier availability is a huge plus. The one advantage of Max is no added MF; but if it doesn't actually get you access to bookable reservations at six months then it would be overpriced even at $1.


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## dayooper (Apr 13, 2022)

letsgobobby said:


> Assuming you mean buying through DRI, the downside is higher MF and having to learn a whole new system. Obviously earlier availability is a huge plus. The one advantage of Max is no added MF; but if it doesn't actually get you access to bookable reservations at six months then it would be overpriced even at $1.



When you buy a resale deed, I believe it’s slightly cheaper as you don’t pay dues for The Club. I could be wrong here, but that’s how I remember it.


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## Bob from Upstate (Apr 13, 2022)

Wow. This is quite a thread. Let's just go forward from here and see how it goes. Looking forward to traveling soon.


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## Mongoose (Apr 13, 2022)

dayooper said:


> When you buy a resale deed, I believe it’s slightly cheaper as you don’t pay dues for The Club. I could be wrong here, but that’s how I remember it.


I purchased Bay Club which is an affiliate.  I don't have to Join the club, but if I do, the fees are $399 plus annual club fees of $193.  To make a reservation I have to work directly with the resort.  I believe if you have a HGVC resort you do have to join the club for around $695 plus annual club fee.


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