# I was lied to - should I sue?



## griffir1 (Aug 11, 2015)

A couple of years ago I had 156,000 points at Nashville and purchased a Wyndham OVP contract for 203,000 points in Kauai.  They set up a PIC for 156,000 points for my Westgate timeshare in Orlando and I became a Gold VIP member (grandfathered before they raised the points needed to be Gold VIP).  But I had a problem with the way the PIC went down because I later found out that Wyndham set up the PIC for a property and week that was not mine.  Why?  I don't know.  But I thought it was kind of shady and wanted to keep my Gold VIP status but not have to use the PIC.  So, last December when a sales person made me an offer I said if you can set it up so that by purchasing those points I could retain my Gold VIP status and lose the requirement to have the PIC I will make the purchase.  After bringing the manager in they said they could make that happen so I signed the contract.  I was informed a couple months later that I had to keep the PIC in my ownership profile.  I called Customer Service and, after spending a week researching the situation, they told me I had to keep the PIC.  I readdressed the issue by escalating it but was told the same thing even though they said it was clear that I was promised the PIC would not be required  after the purchase.  Why did they not honor the promise the sales people made?  Because it was not in the contract.  My question is, do I have grounds to sue to have the contract reversed and my money paid back to me?


----------



## csxjohn (Aug 11, 2015)

griffir1 said:


> A couple of years ago I had 156,000 points at Nashville and purchased a Wyndham OVP contract for 203,000 points in Kauai.  They set up a PIC for 156,000 points for my Westgate timeshare in Orlando and I became a Gold VIP member (grandfathered before they raised the points needed to be Gold VIP).  But I had a problem with the way the PIC went down because I later found out that Wyndham set up the PIC for a property and week that was not mine.  Why?  I don't know.  But I thought it was kind of shady and wanted to keep my Gold VIP status but not have to use the PIC.  So, last December when a sales person made me an offer I said if you can set it up so that by purchasing those points I could retain my Gold VIP status and lose the requirement to have the PIC I will make the purchase.  After bringing the manager in they said they could make that happen so I signed the contract.  I was informed a couple months later that I had to keep the PIC in my ownership profile.  I called Customer Service and, after spending a week researching the situation, they told me I had to keep the PIC.  I readdressed the issue by escalating it but was told the same thing even though they said it was clear that I was promised the PIC would not be required  after the purchase - because it was not in the contract.  My question is, do I have grounds to sue to have the contract reversed and my money paid back to me?



Was the guarantee that you could drop the PIC week written in the contract?  It sounds like it wasn't so you don't have much to stand on.  That's not to say you don't have grounds but what do you have as proof?

I'm not an attorney, just asking a few questions that popped in my mind when reading your post.


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 11, 2015)

Unfortunately, verbal promises are not legally binding, and your contract states that, because sales people are infamous for "saying" anything to make a sale.


----------



## griffir1 (Aug 12, 2015)

csxjohn said:


> Was the guarantee that you could drop the PIC week written in the contract?  It sounds like it wasn't so you don't have much to stand on.  That's not to say you don't have grounds but what do you have as proof?
> 
> I'm not an attorney, just asking a few questions that popped in my mind when reading your post.



All I have as proof is a document of my intent that states that I made the purchase based on the promise of losing the PIC as a condition of the sale.  I was told by Wyndham that even though that was my intent all that matters is what is in the contract.


----------



## Jason245 (Aug 12, 2015)

griffir1 said:


> All I have as proof is a document of my intent that states that I made the purchase based on the promise of losing the PIC as a condition of the sale.  I was told by Wyndham that even though that was my intent all that matters is what is in the contract.


Unfortunately,  you should have made sure it was written in the final sales contract.  That is what governs the transaction legally speaking  (although you can probably speak to a attorney ).

General rule is don't sign any contracts unless all the provisions you want are in them. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## griffir1 (Aug 12, 2015)

Jason245 said:


> Unfortunately,  you should have made sure it was written in the final sales contract.  That is what governs the transaction legally speaking  (although you can probably speak to a attorney ).
> 
> General rule is don't sign any contracts unless all the provisions you want are in them.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



Wow.  So I was chumped and I couldn't find out until months later so it was too late to rescind.  And the only recourse I have is to sue - where can I find a lawyer?


----------



## Jason245 (Aug 12, 2015)

Contact your local bar association. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## uscav8r (Aug 12, 2015)

griffir1 said:


> A couple of years ago I had 156,000 points at Nashville and purchased a Wyndham OVP contract for 203,000 points in Kauai.  They set up a PIC for 156,000 points for my Westgate timeshare in Orlando and I became a Gold VIP member (grandfathered before they raised the points needed to be Gold VIP).  But I had a problem with the way the PIC went down because I later found out that Wyndham set up the PIC for a property and week that was not mine.  Why?  I don't know.  But I thought it was kind of shady and wanted to keep my Gold VIP status but not have to use the PIC.  So, last December when a sales person made me an offer I said if you can set it up so that by purchasing those points I could retain my Gold VIP status and lose the requirement to have the PIC I will make the purchase.  After bringing the manager in they said they could make that happen so I signed the contract.  I was informed a couple months later that I had to keep the PIC in my ownership profile.  I called Customer Service and, after spending a week researching the situation, they told me I had to keep the PIC.  I readdressed the issue by escalating it but was told the same thing even though they said it was clear that I was promised the PIC would not be required  after the purchase.  Why did they not honor the promise the sales people made?  Because it was not in the contract.  My question is, do I have grounds to sue to have the contract reversed and my money paid back to me?


How many points do you have now, with and without PIC? It sounds like you made an additional developer purchase with the recent December contract that makes you GOLD VIP without PIC. This implies to me that the December contract was at least 341,000 points (it is subject to the raised VIP limits). A timeline of what was bought when would help (it sounds like everything was a developer purchase).

So what is the practical issue with the PIC in your profile? Even if the PIC was for the correct property, you don't actually have to deposit it every year. This only gives you the option to PIC for points. You can still use your Westgate normally, but others have reported being able to retain the VIP status in that year. If it is for the wrong property still, is it costing you any fees? Were you getting Gold VIP benefits the entire time the PIC was for the wrong property?

What does your original PIC paperwork say? Did it specify the Westgate details? Or did the contract identify something you don't own? I'm not a lawyer, but if they did not deliver what was promised in the original PIC contract, then you _may _have grounds to get out of that particular contract... Or you may be able to force Wyndham to PIC the correct timeshare. 

The recent December contract is a completely different issue (i.e. you may be stuck with it), and seems ancillary to your original gripe.


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 12, 2015)

griffir1 said:


> Wow.  So I was chumped and I couldn't find out until months later so it was too late to rescind.  And the only recourse I have is to sue - where can I find a lawyer?



What happened to you, *happens every day in timeshare sales* - timeshare sales people LIE.  

That's why they have iron clad contracts that state that *any verbal promises are not binding.* 

It would be a waste of money to sue - because you signed the contract, and agreed to these terms.


----------



## Beaglemom3 (Aug 12, 2015)

Forget suing, but seek legal advice :

Notify the Attorney General's office  (consumer affairs) in the state where you believe the fraud originated/was committed. 
I cannot tell from your post and without the docs - I am not requesting this info, but you should have all pertinent papers ready when speaking or emailing the AG's office. Make your case clear, concise and in chronological order. Have names, dates and places ready.

If you're not sure, contact you own AG's office and ask for direction.

Many AG's offices have a timeshare division within the consumer affairs dept. Florida is particularly robust in investigating reported fraud.

Google for contact info.


"Get it in writing" - Judge Judy


=


----------



## rubbub (Aug 13, 2015)

Don't throw good money after bad.  There are unscrupulous lawyers out there who might say you have a great shot at winning (knowing full well it's a lost cause) just so they can rack up billable time.  If you think you actually do have a case talk to several to see if they agree.


----------



## griffir1 (Aug 13, 2015)

uscav8r said:


> How many points do you have now, with and without PIC? It sounds like you made an additional developer purchase with the recent December contract that makes you GOLD VIP without PIC. This implies to me that the December contract was at least 341,000 points (it is subject to the raised VIP limits). A timeline of what was bought when would help (it sounds like everything was a developer purchase).
> 
> So what is the practical issue with the PIC in your profile? Even if the PIC was for the correct property, you don't actually have to deposit it every year. This only gives you the option to PIC for points. You can still use your Westgate normally, but others have reported being able to retain the VIP status in that year. If it is for the wrong property still, is it costing you any fees? Were you getting Gold VIP benefits the entire time the PIC was for the wrong property?
> 
> ...



With the addition of the Kauai property and the PIC to my original purchase in Nashville I was granted Gold VIP status which became grandfathered when they upped the amount of points needed for Gold VIP from 500,000 to 700,000.  The problem was I was constantly being told that if the PIC was for a property that lost it's status on the list of allowed properties for PICs I would lose my Gold VIP status.  In retrospect I can see that was used to market me to buy more points.  When their Access program came out I rolled my Nashville property into a contract with additional points and my status as grandfathered Gold was retained without any problem.  But salesmen kept pinging me with the notion that I could lose my grandfathered Gold status if my PIC went away.  I bought into the concept and when I was offered another upgraded Access contract (434,000 points).  I told them I was only interested in purchasing if they could keep my status as grandfathered Gold VIP and lose the PIC (which costs $89 a year).  They made a big  deal out of "researching to see if it could be done" and came to me saying they had verified it could be done.  They even had me sign a document releasing the PIC.  I did not find out until months later they had baited me with a lie and was told to go to Customer Care to resolve the issue.  I've addressed it with them and escalated it but to no avail.  It is clear from the documentation I have (the expectation paper and the PIC release) that I was told I was going to retain my Gold VIP status and lose the PIC if I made the purchase.  I feel I was sucker punched with a bait and switch scam and would sue if I could find a lawyer that would work on a contingency fee but from what is being said I doubt that will happen.


----------



## griffir1 (Aug 13, 2015)

*regrets*

I used to tout Wyndham as being an ethical company that  was respectful and fair.  I now see that is not the case and it has left a very bitter taste in my mouth.  I will continue to go to presentations but now see anything they say as a lie - it is an expensive lesson in how timeshare really works.  This experience will make it easy to say no and I now have joined the ranks of those warning people about buying direct from the developer.


----------



## griffir1 (Aug 13, 2015)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Forget suing, but seek legal advice :
> 
> Notify the Attorney General's office  (consumer affairs) in the state where you believe the fraud originated/was committed.
> I cannot tell from your post and without the docs - I am not requesting this info, but you should have all pertinent papers ready when speaking or emailing the AG's office. Make your case clear, concise and in chronological order. Have names, dates and places ready.
> ...



Great advice thanks - I will follow up on this...


----------



## am1 (Aug 13, 2015)

griffir1 said:


> I feel I was sucker punched with a bait and switch scam and would sue if I could find a lawyer that would work on a contingency fee but from what is being said I doubt that will happen.



There is doubt about that at all.


----------



## NHTraveler (Aug 13, 2015)

griffir1 said:


> I used to tout Wyndham as being an ethical company that  was respectful and fair.  I now see that is not the case and it has left a very bitter taste in my mouth.  I will continue to go to presentations but now see anything they say as a lie - it is an expensive lesson in how timeshare really works.  This experience will make it easy to say no and I now have joined the ranks of those warning people about buying direct from the developer.



We didn't find TUG in time for our past mistakes either.  We have the same bitter taste but we signed the contract and we paid the price.  Part of the blame is on us, but we learned our lesson.  Now, if we are somewhere and there is a rain day, we go to the presentation and get the gift (only if it is $100-$150 Amex) and give them a rash of crap for 60 minutes.  :rofl:

We have decided to use the system as much as we can to make it worth something.


----------



## Passepartout (Aug 13, 2015)

griffir1 said:


> I used to tout Wyndham as being an ethical company that  was respectful and fair.  I now see that is not the case and it has left a very bitter taste in my mouth.  I will continue to go to presentations but now see anything they say as a lie - it is an expensive lesson in how timeshare really works.  *This experience will make it easy to say no and I now have joined the ranks of those warning people about buying direct from the developer*.



And *THAT*, my friend, is a goodly chunk of TUG's mission. Buy RESALE, save Thou$and$!

Jim


----------



## jancpa (Aug 13, 2015)

Buy a "Buy Resale" TUG T shirt for the next presentation!


----------



## ronparise (Aug 13, 2015)

What am I missing?

156 + 203 + 434 = 793 which is gold

I dont see the need for the 154 PIC


----------



## raygo123 (Aug 13, 2015)

I have package sent last week to the NY ATTN general everyone should overwhelm them with all the complaints

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ty1on (Aug 13, 2015)

ronparise said:


> What am I missing?
> 
> 156 + 203 + 434 = 793 which is gold
> 
> I dont see the need for the 154 PIC



-156 trade-in of Nashville when CWA purchased.  637.


----------



## griffir1 (Aug 15, 2015)

Ty1on said:


> -156 trade-in of Nashville when CWA purchased.  637.



Correct - I am prepared to have the sales people try to scare/cajole/trick me into buying another 63,000 points - I will just say no!  I'm young enough, I may just be able to get my revenge $100/$150 at a time ;-).  And I have the documentation and will report them to an AG.


----------



## raygo123 (Aug 15, 2015)

My issue is more their pricing.  2013=$130/1000.  May this year $130/1000, one month later $151/1000.  Complained to corporate and told I should have gone to branard mo. To get that price.  Selling same product at two different prices. Both cwa points.  Illegal in my opinion.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## uscav8r (Aug 15, 2015)

raygo123 said:


> My issue is more their pricing.  2013=$130/1000.  May this year $130/1000, one month later $151/1000.  Complained to corporate and told I should have gone to branard mo. To get that price.  Selling same product at two different prices. Both cwa points.  Illegal in my opinion.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk




Why is this illegal? You don't get the same price for a car with same exact options at different dealers. It's called negotiation and no one is forcing you to buy at a given price. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uscav8r (Aug 15, 2015)

griffir1 said:


> Correct - I am prepared to have the sales people try to scare/cajole/trick me into buying another 63,000 points - I will just say no!  I'm young enough, I may just be able to get my revenge $100/$150 at a time ;-).  And I have the documentation and will report them to an AG.




So do you have Gold or not? It sounds like you have 637 + 154 including the PIC (if it was set up correctly). If you kill the PIC there is no way to retain Gold. I don't understand why you don't force their hand to accept the correct PIC and keep the Gold status, as opposed to trying to fight a battle to remove the PIC from the latest purchase. You did that purchase to retain Gold, and that goal has somehow been obscured in this thread. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## csxjohn (Aug 15, 2015)

griffir1 said:


> ....  But I had a problem with the way the PIC went down because I later found out that Wyndham set up the PIC for a property and week that was not mine.  Why?  I don't know.  ....?



Exactly, this is your problem, find out why and get it fixed.


----------



## raygo123 (Aug 15, 2015)

There are no options or difference in points and its all the same company. I can't ask hiton to sell me Windham pionts.  No distinguished advantages, no deeds etc

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## bnoble (Aug 15, 2015)

OP, I'm going to put this as nicely as possible.

The salesman lied to you.  But, you are also at fault here, and your further reactions suggest you are at best naive. There is nothing illegal in selling exactly the same thing to two different people at two different prices, and it happens in the travel industry all the time. If a willing buyer and seller agree on a price, that's the price, and the agreement can differ from buyer to buyer.

Spend less time plotting your revenge, and more time learning what you have (or don't have) with the PIC arrangement, and we will help you as best we can. In the meantime, I strongly recommend avoiding all sales presentations for the foreseeable future.


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 15, 2015)

This is good advice - going to more presentations is a waste of time and they are going to make offers to you to "fix your problem" and line their pockets - don't go to anymore sales presentations.



bnoble said:


> Spend less time plotting your revenge, and more time learning what you have (or don't have) with the PIC arrangement, and we will help you as best we can. In the meantime, I strongly recommend avoiding all sales presentations for the foreseeable future.


----------



## griffir1 (Aug 29, 2015)

I put in a complaint with Pam Bondi the Florida Attorney General and they are looking into my bait and switch fraud claim.  Who knows maybe others have had similar problems and they will go after Wyndham.  It just happened in New York.


----------

