# [ 2012 ] Adult children who won't grow up.



## LynnMarie828 (Feb 2, 2012)

Anyone have an adult child that doesn't seem to get the idea of responsibility in the real world?  In other words, ___won't grow up. We have been helping to raise our 2 year old grandson since he was 7 days old.  And that is just part of this "she doesn't get it!" situation.


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## natasha5687 (Feb 2, 2012)

It's truly unfortuante that many grandparents get stuck raising their grandchildren because their adult children refuse to grow up.  I'm in my early 30's but have had to distance myself from some friends for this same exact reason.  What I have found is that most times the parents have a really hard time putting a foot down and when they attempt to it seems as if the words/actions fall on deaf ears. To further complicate a difficult situation, grandparents develop really tight bonds and attachments to the grand kids.  It's almost like a catch 22!  I think the first thing you have to understand is that if you allow it to continue, it will continue.  The next thing is that you are going to have to stand firm, even if you havent stood your ground prior.  Do not be intimidated because once you turn the tables and are ready to stand firm, you are going to be perceived as the bad guy (you arent).  Another thing I have seen/found is that addictions, negative influences, and/or emotional instability is usually the culprit.  Dont be afraid to explore these especially if you suspect that any of the above are factors.  Hopefully you child will not threaten to not allow you to see your grandchild but be prepared for it and dont let that stop you from standing firm.  You have built an unbreakable bond with your grandchild and nobody will be able to come in between you...more often than not it's just talk out of anger.  Last but not least, you cannot enable and expect change.  If you babysit so your child can go out STOP.  If you financially support your child STOP.  You want your adult child to grow up but you cant want something for someone more than they do!  Change comes from within!


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 2, 2012)

*You are the enabler. Change what you are doing. That is the ONLY person who you can change, is YOURSELF*. 

If you want her to raise the grandkid, go get a job and NOT be available. If she is going out for the evening, leave first. Empty the house of food - after all you have money, to buy food for yourself. Cancel the cable and her cell phones. Disconnect the landline and internet (the library). Have no soap for the clothes washer machine. If you have a car you are letting her drive, SELL IT. Do not insure her car under your policy. 

Why should she grow up? Because she had a baby you are raising? 

Put the house up for sale and MOVE to a over 55 community which restricts the number of nights visitors under 18 can stay over.

Yes there are a number of things you can and should do. Never said it was going to be pleasant removing adult leeches.


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## ronparise (Feb 2, 2012)

I knew my wife and I had done a good job when, after our daughter graduated from college we suggested she might come back home until she found a job and a place of her own......her answer...I dont want to live with you people

I know an 83 year old woman that has her two 50 yo sons still living at home, one with a wife,..no rent is being paid,  Their Mom is their sole support..

I blame the Mom as much as the sons for this sad situation


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## pjrose (Feb 2, 2012)

My 19 year old thinks she is grown up and wants to be on her own and wants to get pregnant.  She doesn't "get" that she needs to be able to support herself before she thinks of supporting a child.  She has medical issues, hasn't finished school, and might not be about to get or keep a job due to the medical issues.  She doesn't "get" that even if she does have a job, who's going to care for the child while she's working?  She doesn't "get" that what she wants isn't the most important thing, the child is.  

She sees friends and acquaintances with babies, usually without husbands, and somehow they manage and the babies are so cute....but she doesn't see the struggles and bills and crummy jobs.


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## Passepartout (Feb 2, 2012)

We see waaaay too many of these situations. DW is a family law attorney, so deals with grandparents raising children, adult kids on drugs (usually meth) and functionally disabled. I agree on one level about 'enabling', but you can't turn your back and watch innocent kids who have no part in their parents' illness (that's what it is) suffer and fall behind. There a hundred levels at which this situation is just plain wrong!

All the best to you LynnMarie for stepping up.

Jim Ricks


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## ampaholic (Feb 2, 2012)

vacationhopeful said:


> *You are the enabler. Change what you are doing. That is the ONLY person who you can change, is YOURSELF*.
> 
> If you want her to raise the grandkid, go get a job and NOT be available. If she is going out for the evening, leave first. Empty the house of food - after all you have money, to buy food for yourself. Cancel the cable and her cell phones. Disconnect the landline and internet (the library). Have no soap for the clothes washer machine. If you have a car you are letting her drive, SELL IT. Do not insure her car under your policy.
> 
> ...



Is this what you did to your kids? 

I'm not saying it's wrong or right - I just want to understand the background.


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## geekette (Feb 2, 2012)

You don't mention how old she is, if she is in school or working, or what her deal is beyond her pawningoff the baby.  Doesn't really matter.  that is appalling in itself.  unless she is on drugs, in which case it's best that you have the baby.  But I don't get the sense that your daughter is on drugs.  Prob'ly just immature and irresponsible. 

You're getting a big wallop of tough love, so I hope you are hanging tough.  Maybe you already knew you had to quit being so darned supportive?  

The thing is, you did your job, you raised your kids.  They need to take it from there.  So you really do have to do the tough love thing.

If she calls you for help in the advisory way ("Mom, what's the best way to clean the sippy cups when they get gooey?") you of course offer your wisdom, because that is your role as mother.  

As grandmother, you get to visit with the kids, spoil them rotten, and hand them back to their parents.  She should be his main provider of Everything.  Not that you can't help, Some, but do less than you are now. WAAAAY less.

You don't have to be brutal, you can taper off.  I get the feeling that you are quite warm-hearted and couldn't go cold turkey because you know how hard it will be for her.  Tough crap for her.  Raising kids IS hard, and she had better learn that NOW.  You don' tplan to raise the child and his mother for the next 16 years do you?

Turn the tables, gently if you must.  But get to the point where you call her when you want to see him/them vs providing care for the child on a regular basis.  

She does need to figure it out for herself, so start making tracks in the other direction.  more vacations, more hobbies, more time to yourself.  you have earned that.  Do not allow her to monopolize your time.  You have nothing to feel guilty about.  It's on her to honor her responsibilities.  

Consider family counselling so she can learn from an objective observer that she is not acting like a mature adult and certainly not like the mother her son needs.  And maybe she will continue counselling on her own as she finds out it isn't so easy to be an adult.

Good luck!


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 2, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> Is this what you did to your kids?
> 
> I'm not saying it's wrong or right - I just want to understand the background.



No, but I have dealt with alcoholics and druggies in my business and personal life. And as I tell people who ask, my job is to make people homeless. Otherwise, I am just a bookkeeper and file clerk.

OP is unhappy and wants the adult child to grow up and change. 

As Passepartout posted, there are legal means to assure that a grandchild gets a better life from a caring and mature family member. 

But until OP realizes that SHE has to change first and be strong about it, her adult child will see NO REASON to change her life or to be a parent.

How does that prayer go? Give me the strength to change what I can, the knowledge to know what I can not change, and the wisdom to know the difference.


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## gpurtz (Feb 2, 2012)

Until a person is forced to bear the consequences of a poor decision, he/she will continue to make poor decisions.


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## ampaholic (Feb 2, 2012)

vacationhopeful said:


> No, but I have dealt with alcoholics and druggies in my business and personal life. And as I tell people who ask, my job is to make people homeless. Otherwise, I am just a bookkeeper and file clerk.
> 
> OP is unhappy and wants the adult child to grow up and change.
> 
> ...



I think solving this has a lot to do with compassion, empathy and in general the ability to think yourself into another person’s shoes, if you so desire. 

It also helps to get through this type of situation to work to develop and cultivate empathy. 

The famous proverb might apply here: “before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes"

-or as it was best said:

“You never really know a man until you understand things from his point of view, until you climb into his skin and walk around in it.”

Harper Lee. To Kill a Mockingbird. 1960


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## ampaholic (Feb 2, 2012)

I think the OP wants to retain a loving relationship with the adult child as well as get her to "grow up". 

A very fine line.

- oh --- Welcome to TUG !!!!


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## Chrisky (Feb 2, 2012)

LynnMarie828 said:


> Anyone have an adult child that doesn't seem to get the idea of responsibility in the real world?  In other words, ___won't grow up. We have been helping to raise our 2 year old grandson since he was 7 days old.  And that is just part of this "she doesn't get it!" situation.



I don't envy you one bit, but not knowing your entire situation, I think a little tough love is in order.  Plus, you have to change and stop enabling your adult child.  I also recommend you check out this site, they are extremely helpful women, some in your similar situation.  
http://www.wisewomenunite.com/index.php


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## Phydeaux (Feb 2, 2012)

LynnMarie828 said:


> Anyone have an adult child that doesn't seem to get the idea of responsibility in the real world?  In other words, ___won't grow up. We have been helping to raise our 2 year old grandson since he was 7 days old.  And that is just part of this "she doesn't get it!" situation.



IMHO, not enough information offered here to render an opinion or advice. There are always three sides to every story.




All I can offer is this: our children enter this world conceived and born from us. We raise them. They have no *zero* preconceived notions, prejudices, etc. etc. We do our best in raising them the best we know how, in their formative years, then turn them over to themselves.


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## AwayWeGo (Feb 2, 2012)

*You Typed A Mouthful.*




gpurtz said:


> Until a person is forced to bear the consequences of a poor decision, he/she will continue to make poor decisions.


That's about the size of it. 

Trouble is, seeing the teen & adult offspring mess themselves up via bad decisions terribly grieves the hearts of the mothers & fathers. 

Knowing that, the problem teens & young adults sometimes deliberately play on parental emotions in manipulative ways. 

Parents sometimes respond in ways that tend to enable the kids' unacceptable immature behavior. 

It is a tough situation for all involved. 

Some practical guidance on the subject is available in a 1985 book titled Getting Tough On Gateway Drugs, by Robert L. Dupont MD. 

Good luck. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## spirits (Feb 2, 2012)

*Dealing with manipulation*

What a great community we have at TUG.  I have been reading the posts and no wonder I love this forum.  
I have dealt with manipulative behavior from my students all my life and they can be masters at getting what they want. This has the smell of manipulation all over it.  It sounds like the daughter is using her child to get parents to do what she wants. Why not? It worked for a long time.  Why work for things if you don't have to? And if both sides of the generation divide are getting their needs met that is no business of anyone else. However she is crossing the line when she uses her child as a pawn.  The parents need to stop this crazy dance they are involved in.  They need to educate themselves about what they can do to protect their grandchild.  It is not about a spoiled child anymore.  It is about a parent teaching their adult child right from wrong. Period.  Nothing but nothing should trump the safety of a child.  If the child is in any danger social services should be contacted.  Believe me this is a cry for help.  Someone needs to get some sense in this situation. If it is not the grandparents, then who will look after the grandchild?  Help is there.  Contact social services.  They see this everyday and will give you their informed advice.


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## geekette (Feb 3, 2012)

Phydeaux said:


> IMHO, not enough information offered here to render an opinion or advice. There are always three sides to every story.
> 
> .... *We do our best in raising them the best we know how, in their formative years, then turn them over to themselves*.



Agree.  we don't know.

Bolded what I think is an excellent statement.


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## dumbydee (Feb 3, 2012)

This is a situation I hoped to never be in... A little history

My older brother, now 56 years old, is still living with my 75 year old mother.  He is a drug addict as well as an alcoholic.  He never held a job for more than a year at a time.  Now he is on disability because of his mental issues.  Yes my mom is an enabler but she does not see it that way.  My brother fathered three girls and my older sister raised them.  NOW one of his daughters moved in with my mother a year ago with her 7 year old son.  So now my mom has two dead beats living with her.  My neice is trying to do better and is in school for nursing BUT she never helps mom with any of the housework or even her own child.  My mom works 36 hours a week and then has to deal with this crap at home.  BUT there is nothing I can do to help her because she WILL not help herself.  I have offered for my mom to move in with me and let them fend for themselves but she will not do it.  

NOW on to me.  I have a 23 year old son who is in college.  He lives with my ex, his father.  I pay most of his extra bills such as cell phone, insurance, and cable/internet bill.  I told him I am willing to keep this up till he graduates at the end of this year.  God give me the strength to use that tough love on him if he does not get out and get a job and start taking care of himself.  My son does have anxiety issues and it has been a struggle getting him this far in college but PLEASE let him be able to function and GROW UP. 

I have a 21 year old that works and goes to school.  I do not have to do anything for him although I do still pay the same bills for him (so as to be fair).  He has grown up to be a wonderful young man and has a 4.0 in school.  

Where did I go wrong?  They are 17 months apart and were raised the same way.  

SO OP I feel your pain.  It is easy to say what you would do but until you are in the situation you do not really know what you would do.  I have told my mom many of times I would kick my sorry a&& brother out on the street but I sort of know how she feels as I may be facing the same thing.

HOPE YOUR SITUATION GETS BETTER.


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 3, 2012)

dumbydee said:


> ...Where did I go wrong?  They are 17 months apart and were raised the same way...



_All kids are VERY different_. My sister has 3 boys. None is a clone of the other, but the youngest had driven his parents NUTS since he was 6 months old (did not like clothes on or diapers changed). Our parents (their maternal grandparents) were elderly, in nursing homes, and passed away before the youngest was 2.5 yo which is why I have so much contact with him. Yes, there is anxiety, additive personalities (alcohol and gambling), ADHD, and control issues in our (maternal) family - being aware of those issues when they are younger allows them to start to control these issues and themselves.

The older 2 have been far away more compliant than the youngest - who was less than 5 when *he decided* he was staying with me. My sister is now trying VERY HARD to have me go on the cruise with them - realizing a balcony in the room and cruise do NOT go together with him. Actually, cruise and him and them is not a good idea. Made my plane reservation yesterday.

To those Tuggers who have met my nephew, YES, that is him.


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## Htoo0 (Feb 3, 2012)

Maybe it was because I was the oldest and in high school when the youngest two siblings were born but whatever the reason, I chose not to have children and married someone who wanted a career. Therefore I have no advice to offer. I have watched quite a number of nieces and nephews being raised however as well as a good many friends raising their own. Some seem to 'get it' while some don't, often in the same families and to varying degrees. Unfortunately by the time some figure it out they've already made mistakes which will affect them the rest of their lives. Grandparents raising children seems to be a growing phenomenon. There needs to be some easy answers but I haven't found them. Every situation seems to have it's 'subtle' differences. There certainly is a case for 'tough love' but sometimes that means legal action to protect the minor grandchild/niece/nephew/'etc and 'writing off' the wayward child. Maybe that wakes them up and maybe it means you have to raise the minor yourself. Seeking advice is probably a good start, perhaps professional advice would be good too but in the end you have to choose what you believe will work best in your situation. I don't think anyone  can answer that for another. (Kind of like - "Is time-sharing right for you?" ) Hope you can find the solution for your dilemma.


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## Talent312 (Feb 3, 2012)

vacationhopeful said:


> How does that prayer go? Give me the strength to change what I can, the knowledge to know what I can not change, and the wisdom to know the difference.



As a step-father to my wife's two boys in their late 20's
(a/k/a blood-suckers), adept at getting their "needs" met,
I find that this version of the "Serenity Prayer" works better for me:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I cannot accept,
And the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people
I had to kill today because they pissed me off.

And also, help me to be careful of the toes I step on today
As they may be connected to the ass that I have to kiss tomorrow...

And help me to remember
When I'm having a really bad day,
And it seems that people are trying to piss me off,
That it takes 42 muscles to frown
And only 4 to extend my middle finger and tell them to bite me.


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## Passepartout (Feb 3, 2012)

gpurtz said:


> Until a person is forced to bear the consequences of a poor decision, he/she will continue to make poor decisions.



At the risk of changing the direction and raising the temperature of this thread, our jails are full of people bearing the consequences of making poor decisions. Drug and alcohol use and mental illness by parents have placed their kids in the guardianship of grandparents- or worse, foster families. 

Rather than offer treatment, our country has chosen to adopt the 'enable and look the other way' attitude until the user oversteps the line of social acceptance and lands in jail- or homeless and on the street- or cared for at home by loved ones.

Some of the posts here have seemed to indicate that the renegade parent/child/sibling should just 'wake up', 'shake it off', straighten up and fly right', 'fit in' with societies mores. Many times this is just not possible. We are dealing with illness here, and it just cannot be shaken off, awakened from and the 'offender' become June or Ward Cleaver.

I offer no solutions. I am simply an observer of the situation.

I wish all who are faced with these difficulties, peace.

Jim


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## gpurtz (Feb 3, 2012)

I certainly didn't get the impression that the conduct of the OP's adult child was criminal.  It seems that the question is: How can we get our children to act responsibly?  Enabling them to act irresponsibly is not an answer.  How to deal with children who have crossed the line and act illegally is a different topic (IMHO).  Gary


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## spirits (Feb 3, 2012)

*How to stop enabling*

A few years ago someone very close to me fell into alcohol addiction.  I was at a terrible time in my life.  I loved them dearly but was helpless as I watched them go from a wonderful, strong person to someone who put an addiction before everything else.  Unless you have been there it is hard for anyone to understand.  I just want to say that I was so lost, their addiction not only was stealing their lives but I had become powerless to stop the addiction from destroying my life as well.  A wonderful friend suggested I go to Alanon.  I really did not want to go but I respected my friends advice.  I was not able to view myself objectively but she was able to see that I was losing control over my life and helped by pointing me towards a source of help.  At Alanon I learned that addiction not only affects the addict but also the people around them.  What was so amazing was I learned that I had become very ill.  No one told me what to do in Alanon.  No one had the answers for me. But what happened was by telling me their stories I was able to piece together a way to help myself.  Only then would the dynamics of the relationship change.  Helping myself escape the disease of addiction (by not being the helper or enabler) that was the catalyst for change.  I might not have liked the outcome of the change, that was out of my control, but it helped me escape and was the only way to get my addict to seek recovery.
I encourage anyone seeking a way out to make contact with others who have found recovery.  There are many groups there.  All it takes is the courage to change and to want what they have.  Please give it a try and go to one meeting. After all nothing changes if nothing changes.  It turned around my life for the better and I am a grateful member


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## DebBrown (Feb 3, 2012)

I've been in the situation and want to emphasize that there is a fine line between being supportive and being taken advantage of.  It is very hard for parents.  My daughter came home from college pregnant at 19.  To make a long story short, they lived with us until DD finished school and became a teacher.  DD learned how to be a wonderful mother and my granddaughter is a delight to us all.

I did not try to be the mother for this child.  I babysat as needed but definitely stood aside and let the two of them be a family.  There is no "one size fits all" advice.  Each person reacts differently.  For my DD, having a child helped her mature and grow into a very responsible adult.  Without the baby, I suspect she would have floundered around for a few more years.  Maybe the secret is making sure the parent/child actually becomes the parent and accepts responsibility.  Easier said than done.

Deb


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## Passepartout (Feb 3, 2012)

I had no intention of singling out any individual, or making anyone feel that there is automatically criminal activity involved. There is a huge spectrum of human behavior. Some of it is more acceptable than other. Whether it's 'so and so' won't grow up, or 'so and so' hangs out with the wrong crowd or can't keep a job. 

I have two nieces who have each had 2 kids by different men, can't/won't hold jobs and somehow feel there is entitlement to life's better things astounds me. I know their parents weren't raised to think that way.

We all follow different paths down life's road. Some are more direct and some wander. I can only hope that all eventually come to peace and satisfaction.

Jim


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## ampaholic (Feb 3, 2012)

Passepartout said:


> ... and somehow feel there is entitlement to life's better things astounds me.



I have also met astounding leeches  

I would wish the OP would come back and clarify the situation.

Are there drugs / alcohol involved? 

Is there an enabler boyfriend (ie dirtbag) involved?


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## geekette (Feb 3, 2012)

I agree, Jim, in the extreme cases.  

But I think there is also a lot of simple immaturity, irresponsibility around.  I am floored by the number of grandparents raising their grandkids when it isn't a situation of drug abuse nor physical/mental illness.  In which case, being forced to deal with their decisions, situations, consequences is indeed that first step.


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## Paumavista (Feb 3, 2012)

Passepartout said:


> At the risk of changing the direction and raising the temperature of this thread, our jails are full of people bearing the consequences of making poor decisions. Drug and alcohol use and mental illness by parents have placed their kids in the guardianship of grandparents- or worse, foster families.  Jim
> 
> Hey, wait a minute...we resemble that "foster family" comment  Our kids (most of the 30 or so; so far) are doing pretty darn good.  And we provide a loving, nurturing, stable family experience - the first many have had.  DH & I have both retired early so we are "there for them" and we love it – along with our grandchildren & our own youngest who are still in Middle School.
> 
> And all of them seem to pretty quickly develop our passion for timeshare vacations and cruises :whoopie:


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## geekette (Feb 3, 2012)

Passepartout said:


> ...somehow feel there is entitlement to life's better things ...



oh boy, that's a huge one right there.  "I am the most special person there ever was..."   and "the world owes me a living".

yikes.


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## Passepartout (Feb 3, 2012)

Paumavista

There is a world of difference between foster parents who feel a 'calling' to improve the lot of those they have the opportunity to help, and those who feel it is an obligation.

I can see that you are the former. Bless you.

Jim


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## BevL (Feb 3, 2012)

*When it's your grandchildren . . .*

In the interests of disclosure, we've had our share of difficulties with our two children, that's for sure.  Our son became a father a few months before his 19th birthday.  At one point, issues between our grandson's mother and himself led to Children and Family Services involvement.

I can tell you that when we got a call from a social worker asking that if it was found necessary to remove the child, would we be willing to take him, there was no thought of, "This is my son's problem, let him deal with it."  We were not willing to stand by and allow our grandbaby to be placed in a situation that might have serious consequences to him.  He was completely the innocent victim - and he's our grandson.  

I'm not saying that the OP was in that situation, it's not really clear.  But I can't imagine a grandparent opting to teach their child a lesson over ensuring the safety and wellbeing of their grandchild.

For the record, our grandbaby was not removed.  Our grandson's mother just got married last month to a wonderful man who treats our grandson like his own child.  She is happy and we are happy for her.  Our son is in a stable relationship and is planning to marry his partner once he finishes his fourth year of university, a year from now.  He is an active and involved father - basically shared custody between the two parents.  

There just isn't one right answer.


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## pjrose (Feb 3, 2012)

*Let's get practical*

Awhile ago (a few years?) on TUG there was a discussion of something along these lines, family members who seemed to be taking advantage of others..... If I recall correctly, there were some practical suggestions there of how to deal with it.

I believe those suggestions involved sitting down and mapping out expectations as well as ways to deal with them and a timetable for dealing with them.  This set a plan for a transition toward responsibility.  

The agreed on expectations need to be written down with everyone's signature or initials indicating acceptance (if not agreement).  There also should be some leeway recognizing that the items are subject to change with everyone's agreement.  

For example, 

You are legally an adult, and have created a child who is your responsibility.

You will need to have a job for at least xx hours a week. While you are working, I will care for the child.  Otherwise, the child is your responsibility.  If you are planning to go out in the evening you may pay a babysitter; I might (or might not) be that babysitter.  

Day care costs about $xxx per week.  You will need to contribute $yy toward the cost of day care in my house.

I will provide a home for you and the child, however as you are 1/3 (or whatever) of this family, I expect you to contribute toward 1/3 of the cost of running the household.  (or 1/3 of your pay etc.)  This will help cover costs of utilities, food, rent/mortgage, etc.

I expect you to pay the costs of your and your child's medical expenses, clothes, and personal items.  If there is no father or child support in the picture, I will help you find the appropriate agency(ies) to get child support.  That child  support is for the child's support, and will go to the costs of food, clothing, etc for the child.

I will baby sit for xx hours a week if you are in school or working.  The rest of the time you are responsible for your child or you may pay for a babysitter or day care center.   

etc etc....gas, car, phone, internet, cable.....

You will need to figure out a budget.  I will help you with this; there are online sites we can use.

You will need to start looking for an apartment.  I will help.....​
Let's work toward this as an approximate timetable:

You should be able to be on your own by (3 months? 6 months?)

You should apply for xxx jobs per day, with the goal of having a job by yyy

Once you have a job, you will need to look for zzz apartments per day, with the goal of.....​etc.

PJ


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## Liz Wolf-Spada (Feb 3, 2012)

My son, who is almost 30 with a master's in journalism is working about 10 hours a week at Banana Republic trying to find a job in journalism. I do end up helping him a lot and still pay his car insurance and health insurance and renter's insurance. One of the jobs he really wanted, but didn't get, paid the huge sum of $24,000 a year. The job market is really tough out there, but he's really trying. I really feel for grandparents raising grandkids. I don't think I could do it. Regarding the two kids in college, one so very independent and one not, kids are different and you said he had anxiety issues. Read the book, Highly Sensitive People, for some interesting takes on people who are very reactive to stress.
Liz


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## jlr10 (Feb 3, 2012)

gpurtz said:


> Until a person is forced to bear the consequences of a poor decision, he/she will continue to make poor decisions.



I fully agree with this.  DH & I have a large family tree of people who want us to take care of them so they can sit around all day watching TV, while we go to work every day.    

If there are mental or health issues involved, or because their is an unexpected situation that come up, I am all for helping people.  But not when they only need help because they refuse to do anything to look after their own needs and feel that their needs should be met by everyone else,and they should be bailed out time and time again.  

I am a big believer of teaching a person to fish rather than give them a fish.  If they don't want to do that then they will have to go hungry around me.


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## easyrider (Feb 3, 2012)

Why are kids less responsible today ? Most of you tuggers already know. 

1. When I was growing up I had a regular jobs that included working with tools and equipment and I had to show up on time and work. Some times working for 12 hours a day. For this I was paid minimum wage and overtime.

Now a child can not work in many occupations and is limited to 4 hours per day until 17. Until 18 this person can not be included in many jobs requiring the use of tools or equipment.

2. Growing up I did not have a Playstation or 300 chanels. We spent time outdoors riding bike, motorcycles, fishing, hunting, throwing frisbee and all kinds of activities.

Today a kid has so many distractions. Computer , cell phones, dvd games and tv take up alot of their time. How can anyone compete with technology, especially a teacher.

3. When I grew up there was only one winner or one winning team, one first place trophy and it was an accomplishment to have earned it.

Now all the kids are winners. Why even keep score !!

So these kids that never had a job will apply and tell of their vast experience at age 20. They usually have very limited job skills but feel they should be paid journeyman wages.

So it is really everybody's fault that most young adults needs extra time to gain a work ethic. As a parent there is a need to make that child work at something and feel accomplishment for a task well done. 

The old trick of doing a bad job so the kid won't be asked to do it again can be crushed with perseverance of the parent. My kids played that game until they realized it was far easier on them to just do a good job off the get go.


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## pianodinosaur (Feb 3, 2012)

LynnMarie828 said:


> Anyone have an adult child that doesn't seem to get the idea of responsibility in the real world?  In other words, ___won't grow up. We have been helping to raise our 2 year old grandson since he was 7 days old.  And that is just part of this "she doesn't get it!" situation.



I understand your problem all too well.  I have a sister in her 50s who is married and had 5 children of her own.  My father has been supporting my sister, her husband, the five grandchildren and now a great grandchild for the past 25 years.  She uses the grandchildren as weapon to extort money from my father.  My father does not understand why my other sisters and I don't want to have anything to do with her or her progeny.

I suggest you nip this in the bud right now.


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## pjrose (Feb 3, 2012)

pianodinosaur said:


> I understand your problem all too well.  I have a sister in her 50s who is married and had 5 children of her own.  *My father has been supporting my sister, her husband, the five grandchildren and now a great grandchild for the past 25 years.  *She uses the grandchildren as weapon to extort money from my father.  My father does not understand why my other sisters and I don't want to have anything to do with her or her progeny.
> 
> I suggest you nip this in the bud right now.



Wow.  I am speechless.


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## Htoo0 (Feb 3, 2012)

As a kid when I wanted to stay up past my bedtime I was told, "OK but you'll be tired in the morning and that will just be too bad".  When I turned 16 and was given a car (not even close to new however), I pretty much never got home before 4 AM. Still got up and went to school though. I refused to play sports because I didn't like the rules, didn't have a job until my senior year and took a year off just hanging around before moving on to college after HS graduation. Still, although I ran with some questionable people, I didn't get into drugs or alcohol, got a job, got married and worked at improving myself beyond the life I lived. A number of brothers and sisters have striven to do the same. But one still lives with our mom and has raised two kids. One of those is doing quite well while the other is going nowhere and probably will remain there. Why do some turn out so much differently than others even when raised substantially under the same conditions? Someday maybe they'll be able to run a test for some gene or chemical or something but until then I think we just need to examine all the options at our disposal, try to figure out which works best for the situation and do what we can. I don't envy those with problem family. I just wonder who is going to decide when it's time to stick me some place when the time comes.


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## Phydeaux (Feb 3, 2012)

Phydeaux said:


> IMHO, not enough information offered here to render an opinion or advice. There are always three sides to every story.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've read every reply. Can't help but come right back to my first post.....Not enough information.. Many people commenting on something that they have only been provided with !a miniscule sliver of information. Hope you folks don't serve on a jury!

Op, comment? More background? Drive by post?


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## ausman (Feb 4, 2012)

Phydeaux,

Don't think you are right on this.

The OP may read the replies and never come back, but take the replies to heart.

People have responded on the information available, what was said and unsaid.

Lots of experience here on TUG with life's issues outside of Time-shares.


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## Icc5 (Feb 4, 2012)

*Agree with this and more*



easyrider said:


> Why are kids less responsible today ? Most of you tuggers already know.
> 
> 1. When I was growing up I had a regular jobs that included working with tools and equipment and I had to show up on time and work. Some times working for 12 hours a day. For this I was paid minimum wage and overtime.
> 
> ...



Every situation is different.  In our case we have two adult children that took two different directions.  One moved out at an early age and struggles in life but she knew it was her choice.  We talk, we listen, and so far she makes it but has a hard time.
The younger one lives at home (he is 21) which is fine for now.  He works a job and has also started his own business.  We are here for support and direction when asked (to a point).  He will do fine in the future.
Two kids, two directions and thankfully neither one has ever been in trouble or really troubled.  I like to believe it is the standards we set and the support we've given without overstepping being good parents.
Bart


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## AwayWeGo (Feb 4, 2012)

*What's The Matter With Kids Today ?*

Click here for a musical version of this vexing question. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## sfwilshire (Feb 5, 2012)

LynnMarie828 said:


> Anyone have an adult child that doesn't seem to get the idea of responsibility in the real world?



Does anyone have an adult child who HAS?   

Sheila


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## teepeeca (Feb 6, 2012)

sfwilshire said:


> Does anyone have an adult child who HAS?
> 
> Sheila



Pam and I have TWO WONDERFUL (adult) children !!!  Both went to "university"---daughter graduated in biochemistry, and is now a nephrologist (kidney doctor) and our son graduated in chemistry, has now had three "mini" careers---chemical; intel; and now police officer (his real "love").

Our son wanted to "be on his own" after college, and get an apartment "closer" to his chemical job---10 miles closer from his/our home.  Rent, at that time, was a bit over $800 per month, plus all utlities, etc.  I "convinced him" to live at home (for the first year, at least), and save the apartment rent in an account, so he could buy a home --- would have $$$ for a down payment for it.

He DID listen to "mom and me"--- did what we suggested--- and has owned a home "of much more value" than what we own for over 15 years.

Maybe our children had a more mature upbringing, since I was "in the military", and expected "things" from them, BUT, everything worked out "fine" --- everybody is happy.

Tony


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## SOS8260456 (Feb 6, 2012)

Not to make light of a very serious subject, especially when I can relate in some ways right now, but....

for some strange reason my children always feel like they are entitled to a yearly vacation and NEVER in a hotel room.  For some strange reason, they now always expect their own bedrooms, jacuzzi tubs, balconies, full refrig for lots of snacks, flat screen tv's, heated swimming pools, game rooms, etc.  A hotel room or even a 1 bedroom is considered slumming.  I can't figure it out.  

Anyway, this thread has been interesting reading.  My 2 older children are 11 months apart and now 18 and 17 and they are so different.  The 18 year old is currently throwing the "I'm 18 and can do what I want" attitude constantly.  She will graduate HS in June.  She does work and it seems like she cares about stuff with everyone else.  But to us, it's just "I don't care" and "I can do what I want" and just constant overall disrespect.  We are at our wit's end.  I made the comment that if she feels that way she can move out, but deep down scared stiff that she will and then get hurt somehow.


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## MommaBear (Feb 6, 2012)

sfwilshire said:


> Does anyone have an adult child who HAS?
> 
> Sheila



I have three children who are responsible adults with jobs and come to their father and me for advice, support and short term loans. (And for fun- we still have a great time together.)

Daughter #1 was into sex, drugs and rock and roll as a teenager, lived on the streets her last semester high school (long story, punchline is, "It's tough, love") got a degree in english and now at 32 is finishing up her nursing degree, getting married and is still a character. Loved her throughout, didn't put up with her illegal/counter culture BS. Daughter #2 has taken longer to grow up but was much less rebellious and less dramatic. She also has a college degree and a job (with benefits!) and still taps us for loans to meet her budget shortfalls. She really does not understand that shoes are NOT an emergency. In return, she dog sits when we are gone on vacation and makes us gourmet meals for our freezer. She is having trouble figuring out why at 29 she doesn't have the life her father and I enjoy. She doesn't understand that we didn't have it at 29 either! Our son, the youngest, makes more than DH and me combined, took all 6 (including his wife who came back after leaving him for a year.) of us to London for Christmas. (DD #1 paid for some of the lodging.) His struggle has been to understand why people are the way they are and has taken longest to figure out that his father and I are intelligent rational human beings. 

Because we do not have grandchildren, we have been able to do the tough love thing when it was needed. DH and I have often discussed how our decisions would have been different at different points if we had had grandchildren, because our focus would have been on making sure they were safe and secure, rather than having their parents/our children learn their life lessons. The decisions are never easy, you make them based on the best information you have and eveyone has a different comfort level and a different understanding of what is best for them, their children and their family.


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## AwayWeGo (Feb 6, 2012)

*I Won't Grow Up.*

Click here for another musical take on the subject. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## SOS8260456 (Feb 6, 2012)

Alan,
Love your musical takes!

Lisa


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## Tia (Feb 6, 2012)

SOS8260456 said:


> ...The 18 year old is currently throwing the "I'm 18 and can do what I want" attitude constantly.  ....



Some of that is no doubt the growing away from parents that they need to do to be independent.


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## AwayWeGo (Feb 6, 2012)

*The 18-Year-Old Is Correct.*




SOS8260456 said:


> The 18 year old is currently throwing the "I'm 18 and can do what I want" attitude constantly.


Yep.  She's 18, so she can do whatever she wants -- just so she pays for everything herself & obeys all the rules & regulations & requirements & restrictions of wherever it is that she's living. 

It's the _Golden Rule_.  

The person that has the _Gold *. . .* Rules_. 

When my younger son turned 18, I had a little heart-to-heart conversation with him along the following lines. 

"Well, son, now that you're 18 the rules around here are going to be much more strict than they were when you were legally a minor & I was required to take care of you no matter what.  Before, there wasn't much I could do if you stayed out too late, spoke disrespectfully to your mother, did not keep your room & your possessions neat & tidy, and so forth.  Now that you are no longer a minor in the eyes of society & the law, I am no longer required to tolerate any such undesirable behavior within my own home.  I love you & I am glad for you to be part of our household.  But the conditions for continuing that, now that you are 18, involve conforming your behavior to our standards.  Otherwise, if that is not acceptable to you, then as a young adult, you are free to leave here & go anywhere you want that you can afford & make your own way -- & best of luck to you in all things if you decide to do that, now that you have reached age 18.  I hope you will stay in touch." 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## pianodinosaur (Feb 6, 2012)

SOS8260456 said:


> Not to make light of a very serious subject, especially when I can relate in some ways right now, but....
> 
> for some strange reason my children always feel like they are entitled to a yearly vacation and NEVER in a hotel room.  For some strange reason, they now always expect their own bedrooms, jacuzzi tubs, balconies, full refrig for lots of snacks, flat screen tv's, heated swimming pools, game rooms, etc.  A hotel room or even a 1 bedroom is considered slumming.  I can't figure it out.
> 
> Anyway, this thread has been interesting reading.  My 2 older children are 11 months apart and now 18 and 17 and they are so different.  The 18 year old is currently throwing the "I'm 18 and can do what I want" attitude constantly.  She will graduate HS in June.  She does work and it seems like she cares about stuff with everyone else.  But to us, it's just "I don't care" and "I can do what I want" and just constant overall disrespect.  We are at our wit's end.  I made the comment that if she feels that way she can move out, but deep down scared stiff that she will and then get hurt somehow.



Treat her like an adult.  Don't buy her anything.  If she wants something, she can buy it herself with the money she has earned.  Do not pay for college.  As an independent adult, she can pay for that herself.  Charge her rent until she graduates High School.  After all, most adults do pay rent.  Then kick her out to fly on her own. This may or may not result in an attitude adjustment but I think it will solve your immediate problem.


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## ciscogizmo1 (Feb 6, 2012)

Be careful for what you wish for as you just might get it...

I do think your situation is very difficult as there is a child involved.   

My story line would be what do we do with those parents that don't want to grow up.  It is a wonder I came out normal so, I have no idea how we are wired.  Anyways, my family is beyond disfunctional it is not even funny.  But I set out to do differently and so far I have.  I worked throughout college, got a BS and MBA (all on my own), didn't have children until I was ready, and I love them.   It had gotten so bad with my Mom that I had to cut all contact off with her.   She is an alcholic and it was proving to be difficult to answer the phone, visit, etc... In fact, I had my wedding earlier in the day so, I didn't have to deal with her drinking (how sad is that).  Anyways, we haven't spoken in 8 years and I just can't bring myself to.  We had a situation that involved my children and it was the last straw for me.  As far as I know she is still an alcoholic but functioning.  But I did learn I was an enabler and that the outcome would not be favorable. But I had to do what was best for me.  Am I sad?  Yes, I don't have the kind of relationship I long for that my friends have.  My parents will never have that grandparent relationship.  They don't have the extended immediate family I wish they had.  But you know, you gotta do what you gotta do.    Now, what I did 8 years ago took me 14 years of my adult life to decide to do.  It is a tough situation.  Basically, no matter what you decide to do, it won't be easy.


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 6, 2012)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> ...the kind of relationship I long for that my friends have.  My parents will never have that grandparent relationship.  .... the extended immediate family .....



My youngest sister has her 3 sons - the oldest 2 were under 5 for their grandmother's funeral and the youngest made his 2nd birthday before his grandfather's funeral. There is a lost for both you and grandkids.

I do many things with the nephews - dyeing Easter eggs every Easter. Bringing down a birthday cake from that special bakery for each of their b-days (plus taking them out to a dine-in restrauant for the b-day breakfast). Watching sci fi TV shows and movies. Taking them on solo timeshare vacation trips. Helping them cook quiches EVERY Christmas morning at 7AM for breakfast while their parents sleep in (since the oldest were 2 & 4 yo.) Taking a tour of their college choice. Rarely giving them money and never video games (or even playing the games). Looking over old family photos (like the 1st year Disney World opened) and drinking coffee from those 40th Anniversity cups. Telling those stories of walking 2 miles thru the snow to go to school .

I know my sister's feelings of loss; I am much more involved than a regular aunt; I value my relationship with her entire family ...


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## geekette (Feb 6, 2012)

I barely have memories of my grandparents.  Death is part of life.  If you never had 'the extended family', you don't miss not having it.  A 5 year old is not likely to grow up moaning about no gparents.  Nice of other family members to be there, but not having lots of family is not a terrible thing.  kids only know what is "normal" For Them.  

Sometimes, that death is not final, the person just becomes "dead to you."  In which case, good for you for protecting the children from a terrible influence, maybe even terrible person.  Far better to not have grandparents than to have a toxic one.  

My mother says her father was an alcoholic, so, maybe it's best that he passed while I was young.  Something I will never know, it was just normal to not have a grandfather.  No gparents at my graduations, wedding, etc.  Normal.  I cannot imagine anyone feeling sorry for me for that?  It's a small detail in a large world.  

You can't miss what you never had.  Not particularly close to my 2 aunts nor 2 uncles, either.   Normal for me, possibly unthinkable in another family.


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## dumbydee (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestion for the book Highly Sensitive People.  I ordered it and plan to share with my son in hopes it will give us some insight.  



Liz Wolf-Spada said:


> My son, who is almost 30 with a master's in journalism is working about 10 hours a week at Banana Republic trying to find a job in journalism. I do end up helping him a lot and still pay his car insurance and health insurance and renter's insurance. One of the jobs he really wanted, but didn't get, paid the huge sum of $24,000 a year. The job market is really tough out there, but he's really trying. I really feel for grandparents raising grandkids. I don't think I could do it. Regarding the two kids in college, one so very independent and one not, kids are different and you said he had anxiety issues. Read the book, Highly Sensitive People, for some interesting takes on people who are very reactive to stress.
> Liz


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## ciscogizmo1 (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks... I'm happy that some people do take their aunt duties very responsibly.  I think it is awesome.  

Part of the problem with my girls is that I do have aunts that take care of me.  However, because of their busy lives they don't have time for my children nor would I expect them to.   They have their own grandchildren now and as an adult I see less of them.   My children do not have any aunts/uncles/cousins to bond with while have 20 aunts and uncles and over 50 cousins so, my situation is different.  They desperately wish they did.  I know it won't ruin their lives but they know how it can be.


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## geekette (Feb 7, 2012)

With my family spread out, there are people that I consider family that I am not related to.  

Started with my "holiday orphans" dinners.  I would invite friends that either had no family or were unable to be with them at the holidays.  My folks would go to my sister's every Christmas because she had their grandkids.  It was rare I could make that trip so began my own traditions.

Blood is only one of many ways to determine who "your family" is.  

I hate to hear of estrangements, but, I do recognize that it is sometimes necessary.  One must do what they need to do to survive and thrive. Sometimes, distancing or severing the relationship is necessary.  Especially when looking to protect the young from people that do not/cannot/will not have the child's best interests in mind. 

Sorry, I have deviated far from the topic ...


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## Phil Strawberry (Sep 19, 2016)

*bkljn*

Thanks a lot for sharing. http://bigessaywriter.com/blog/how-technology-can-change-the-way-children-grow-up This article is for you if you like to read something to decent.


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## VegasBella (Sep 19, 2016)

Just gonna throw this on the fire...

For mos of human history people did not live in self-supporting nuclear families. Most families spanned generations and the old adage that "it takes a village to raise a child" was absolutely accepted. 

It's one thing to want your own children to become more self-sufficient. It's quite another to penalize your minor grandchildren as a result of this desire.


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## Patri (Sep 19, 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHPfgsTVTjA

Love this guy.


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## VacationForever (Sep 19, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> Just gonna throw this on the fire...
> 
> For mos of human history people did not live in self-supporting nuclear families. Most families spanned generations and the old adage that "it takes a village to raise a child" was absolutely accepted.
> 
> It's one thing to want your own children to become more self-sufficient. It's quite another to penalize your minor grandchildren as a result of this desire.



I did not read this original thread in 2012 but I can really relate to this response.  I grew up in a culture where adult children do not leave home until they get married.  We are forcing a physical separation now with my son as we will be moving out of state.  I am undergoing a mix of guilt and relief that he will be forced to live independently and make independent decisions.  Excellent kid, holds a full time job, hard worker, does not do drugs, drink or smoke.  He just does not want a partner and we hope this will encourage him to find a partner. He bought a house and I promised him I will visit him at least a couple of times a year.  I am undergoing anxiety.


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## Phydeaux (Sep 19, 2016)

ampaholic said:


> Is this what you did to your kids?
> 
> I'm not saying it's wrong or right - I just want to understand the background.




I happen to agree with this poster. Parenting begins day 1. The behavior of the adult child is indicative of their up bringing.


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## DeniseM (Sep 19, 2016)

Please note - this thread is from 2012, and it was brought out of mothballs by a first time poster, in post #59 - this post is being reviewed.


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## Finntastic (Sep 20, 2016)

Interesting that this thread was revived after more than a 4 year hiatus, but as I have a 17, 20 and 11 I found this thread interesting. Entitlement is such a huge issue with this generation.  I notice it much more in my 20 yr then in my 17 year old. Fortunately he does work 50 hours a week but wants the best of everything!    My son in doing an apprenticeship but is impatient and compares himself to his friends earning more than him but in jobs my son would suffocate in!!  This is a tricky age. Give my a 5 year old any time!:rofl:


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## rapmarks (Oct 11, 2016)

I could write plenty. 
My friends are raising their grandchildren after her son died of an overdose in rehab.  He was 70 when they took in a two and a three year old.  They are terrific.
My daughter made a bad choice with the father of her three children.  Long story but is basically hiding out after death threats and one attempt to kill her.  He is a drug and alcohol abuser, gives no child support, works on the road, fights for custody, lawyers fees have eaten up close to fifty thousand.  Loss on house she fled literally in middle of night under order of protection was another fifty thousand, with us paying mortgage for almost a year to get it sold.  She tried to buy near us, only to discover he has run up thirty thousand in debt with her name still on it.  We ended up buying the house, mortgage will be paid off when my husband hits his 105th birthday.  I spend as much time as possible with boys, who all witnesses and were part of a lot of violence and rage.  The four year old has been particularly affected.   My daughter routinely works twelve hour days and cannot make enough to pay bills, despite having a professional job, two masters degrees and four licenses.  Our health is declining, we certainly don't need this stress.  Until two years ago, I had responsibility for two elderly aunts, my mother lived til 94. We don't need any more stress in our lives.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Tia (Oct 11, 2016)

Wow, nothing I can do except acknowledge your very tough situation and pray there is some relief in the near future for your  situation. 

Hope others see the need to keep a close eye on your credit and maybe even put a lock on it when you have let someone into your life that wants to hurt you



rapmarks said:


> I could write plenty.
> My friends are raising their grandchildren after her son died of an overdose in rehab.  He was 70 when they took in a two and a three year old.  They are terrific.
> My daughter made a bad choice with the father of her three children.  Long story but is basically hiding out after death threats and one attempt to kill her.  He is a drug and alcohol abuser, gives no child support, works on the road, fights for custody, lawyers fees have eaten up close to fifty thousand.  Loss on house she fled literally in middle of night under order of protection was another fifty thousand, with us paying mortgage for almost a year to get it sold.  She tried to buy near us, only to discover he has run up thirty thousand in debt with her name still on it.  We ended up buying the house, mortgage will be paid off when my husband hits his 105th birthday.  I spend as much time as possible with boys, who all witnesses and were part of a lot of violence and rage.  The four year old has been particularly affected.   My daughter routinely works twelve hour days and cannot make enough to pay bills, despite having a professional job, two masters degrees and four licenses.  Our health is declining, we certainly don't need this stress.  Until two years ago, I had responsibility for two elderly aunts, my mother lived til 94. We don't need any more stress in our lives.
> 
> ...


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