# [ 2013 ] Lagunamar Purchase - Sanity Check



## dioxide45 (Sep 16, 2013)

Hoping some Starwood pros can help me out. We are looking at possibly buying a Gold+ Lagunamar EOY odd studio week. We have traveled to Cancun for the past two of the past three years and are planning a third trip for 2014. We would most often be traveling the week of Memorial week or the week prior. So Gold + fits the bill.

Given that we own Marriott weeks, trading in to Lagunamar isn't a sure thing. We would most likely treat it as close to a fixed week as possible perhaps only doing something else with it once every 10 years or so. That may mean trying to trade it or perhaps rent it out, even if at a loss. Or give it to friends.

I think I have done my research, but want a sanity check and figured there is no better place to get it than here. I have read about other options for getting in to WLR; II exchange with a cheap Starwood trader, paying cash, trying to trade in with a non Starwood week. Plus there is something to be said about the assurance of booking a week 12 months out.

I have seen a few weeks on Ebay that are either free or almost free

Here are the options.

*Keep trying to get in with Marriott*
*Pros: *It is a cheaper option, but not the cheapest. II Exchange fee of $169 plus approximate cost $500 given our current MFs on our units and the fact I can get in with one half of one of our lock offs.
*Cons:* The unknown with II.

*Buy a Cheap Starwood Trader*
*Pros: *Cheaper on a per week basis if I buy a 2BR lock off somewhere and trade both weeks. But that commits us to another full 2BR MF that we really don't want.
*Cons:* The unknown with II.

*Buy Lagunamar*
*Pros: *Probably the cheapest option.
*Cons: *If for some reason we can't travel to Cancun, the costs of use go up for a rather poor trader.

Here is a cost comparison breakdown using 2012 MF numbers from the sticky. I couldn't find 2013 numbers. Though the actual numbers aren't important when comparing apples to apples. These are counting on buying an EOY in each option.

*SDO 2BR-LO*
$980.08 MF
$178.00 II Annual Fee. Given that we would have a 2BR, I would carry II membership EY.
$278.00 Exchange Fees when locked off.
$718.04 Total for each week of use.

*SDO 1BR-Premium*
$677.93 MF
$89.00 II Annual Fee.
$139.00 Exchange Fees.
$905.93 Total for one week of use.

*SDO 1BR-Small*
$575.21 MF
$89.00 II Annual Fee.
$139.00 Exchange Fees.
$803.21 Total for one week of use.

*SBP 1BR*
$637.32 MF
$89.00 II Annual Fee.
$139.00 Exchange Fees.
$865.32 Total for one week of use.

*WLR 2BR*
$1278.71 MF
$89.00 II Annual Fee. Probably would only use II in the odd years to exchange the other half.
$139.00 Exchange Fees.
$753.36 Total for each week of use.

*WLR 1BR*
$803.37 MF
$0.00 II Annual Fee.
$0.00 Exchange Fees.
$803.37 Total for one week of use.

*WLR Studio*
$475.34 MF
$0.00 II Annual Fee.
$0.00 Exchange Fees.
$475.34 Total for one week of use.

While I think a 1BR Lagunamar would be nice, I don't think I can justify almost double the maintenance fee for it. We don't cook when we go to Cancun. Usually just light breakfasts and some snacks and we dine out each evening. The studio has a washer and dryer which is the most important to us of the amenities. We wouldn't usually take friends or family and in the rare chance we did, we could then use our Marriott week to get a second unit.

I know that Cancun is a pretty easy trade and there are a lot of great resorts, though we love the location of Lagunamar. We had previously stayed at the Marriott hotel further down the strip and hated the location. WLR is much closer to a lot of shopping and restaurants and doesn't require using the bus as much.

So what do you think? Is it dumb to be considering a studio gold + purchase of Lagunamar?


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## czar (Sep 16, 2013)

My only concern would be the potential of dumping a studio later on. Maybe others with more experience can chime in, but I think it's easier to get rid of a larger unit down the line. 

I'm not familiar with Lagunamar but instead of exchanging, can you split it and rent 1/2 out instead of exchanging?  It seems like if you remove the II and exchange fee, you'd be closer to the studio unit. 

Finally, what's the rental cost for the week?  You didn't list that option, but since it's gold plus timeframe I can't imagine it's too much. You may want to see if any of the MF is currently being subsidized by Starwood. If so, it may make more sense to rent.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 16, 2013)

czar said:


> My only concern would be the potential of dumping a studio later on. Maybe others with more experience can chime in, but I think it's easier to get rid of a larger unit down the line.
> 
> I'm not familiar with Lagunamar but instead of exchanging, can you split it and rent 1/2 out instead of exchanging?  It seems like if you remove the II and exchange fee, you'd be closer to the studio unit.
> 
> Finally, what's the rental cost for the week?  You didn't list that option, but since it's gold plus timeframe I can't imagine it's too much. You may want to see if any of the MF is currently being subsidized by Starwood. If so, it may make more sense to rent.



Thanks. Given that the weeks are being unloaded for free or almost free now, it is a concern about being able to get rid of the week later if/when the need arises.

I have looked at rental rates. Looking at Memorial week 2014 on the Starwood site, rates are about $190 per night including taxes. So about $1330 for a week. Haven't looked at private rentals.


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## czar (Sep 16, 2013)

Looking at redweek, looks like the asking prices run $600-$1200+ depending on timeframe.


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## siesta (Sep 16, 2013)

I would buy a voluntary starwood trader.  WLR bulk banks, and has great availability even for holiday weeks.  Even if you only bought a 1br small side SDO, although you would get better value from the 2br, you would still be staying for cheaper than a WLR owner if you traded into a 2br, and would be staying for about the same price if you traded into a 1br.  Since WLR is voluntary as well, I see no advantage to buying there.

You could even consider a mandatory purchase like svv which will give you staroptions should you want to branch out to the other SVO resorts.


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## Ken555 (Sep 16, 2013)

While it's clear you are comfortable in a WLR Studio, I wonder if that will be true years from now as well. Could your travel requirements change over time? Personally, I think the small Starwood studios in Hawaii and Cancun are, well, too small. Even the 1-bed is smaller in the newer resorts, but at least there's room to maneuver. However, since you may be comparing the Starwood studio (ie real studio with amenities) to a Marriott studio (ie hotel room), I can understand why you may appreciate it more than I. 

If you think you may ever be interested in the other Starwood resorts you may want to consider the SDO 2BR option more seriously. Though past years cannot be a guarantee of future exchange possibilities, it's been rather consistent for at least ~8 years now that Starwood traders have been successful getting to WKORV, WPORV, WLR (of course), Harborside, and others, especially if your travel schedule is flexible. Keep in mind a SDO 1-bed (SDO 2-bed LO = 2, 1BDs, as you know) will likely pull a WLR 1 (or even 2) bed unit without difficulty. The incremental increase in cost for this may be worthwhile (it would be for me! see above ). Using your numbers, this would cost an additional $243. Then again, the difference between $718 and $803 may not be worth the time needed to watch for availability (or place an exchange request with II) vs making a reservation 12 months in advance nor the possible ability to obtain a 2-bed unit and invite friends/family at no additional cost.



> SDO 2BR-LO
> $980.08 MF
> $178.00 II Annual Fee. Given that we would have a 2BR, I would carry II membership EY.
> $278.00 Exchange Fees when locked off.
> $718.04 Total for two weeks of use.



I think you meant to write that $718.04 is the cost per week for the SDO 2BR-LO option, not total for two weeks.

I agree with Czar that it will be difficult to give away a WLR studio unit. It will likely be significantly easier to give away SDO.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 16, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> I think you meant to write that $718.04 is the cost per week for the SDO 2BR-LO option, not total for two weeks.
> 
> I agree with Czar that it will be difficult to give away a WLR studio unit. It will likely be significantly easier to give away SDO.



I did mean for each week. Trying to compare apples to apples. I updated my post.

I do agree that anything is possible and past travel patterns don't always translate in to future use. Though we have no children and don't plan on having any. So unless we take friends with us, we won't need a larger unit. I am enamored with the Westin studios over the paltry Marriott ones (by comparison). Though after a few years it could perhaps get old.

Given exchanging, how easy will it be 10 years down the road when WLR is sold out. Will bulk deposits slow down because of more owner/StarOption trades. We have noticed in Marriott that bulk deposits have dropped as Marriott more quickly unloaded inventory with their new DC program.


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## VacationForever (Sep 16, 2013)

If I were in your shoes, I would buy either at WLR or a mandatory resort.  In the recent bulk deposit while there were many weeks, in reality there were not that many choices.  My friends want my husband and I to take them to WLR and prefer a Sat check-in.  Instead of using an II trade to get a Sun check-in I went ahead and book using Staroptions.  Staroptions give you a lot more flexibility.  I have also been half seriously looking at WLR resale as we love the resort and that would take the guess work out of exchanging through II.  Although I would pick a 1BR or 2BR over a studio.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 17, 2013)

sptung said:


> If I were in your shoes, I would buy either at WLR or a mandatory resort.  In the recent bulk deposit while there were many weeks, in reality there were not that many choices.  My friends want my husband and I to take them to WLR and prefer a Sat check-in.  Instead of using an II trade to get a Sun check-in I went ahead and book using Staroptions.  Staroptions give you a lot more flexibility.  I have also been half seriously looking at WLR resale as we love the resort and that would take the guess work out of exchanging through II.  Although I would pick a 1BR or 2BR over a studio.



I had noticed that the II bulk was mostly Sun checkins. While that can usually work for us, it would be nice to have other options fairly far in advance.

My guess is that buying a mandatory resort will likely be much more expensive than buying Lagunamar? Given that we would want to return to Lagunamar every other year. An EOY WLR would be ideal. Buying a two bedroom would cost more upfront and be much more expensive MF wise than the studio or even 1BR. Also, with a mandatory resort, is there not an additional SVN fee? That would add to the annual costs of the week.

I also fear how much MFs will go up once the resort sells out. Though that would happen across the board. Adding $1250 MF now isn't too bad, but if those balloon to $1800 down the road, that would be bad. Even with a studio being small, even if MFs doubled, I probably wound't feel as ripped off even though it works out to the same in the end.

With Cancun flooded with inventory, I don't think renting out one half of the lock off is really a viable option if I went the 2BR route? Especially a gold + week?

I will probably keep my eyes out for either a studio or 1BR. Given that we want to go back to Lagunamar, I think the cheapest option is to actually buy there?


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## LisaRex (Sep 17, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> With Cancun flooded with inventory, I don't think renting out one half of the lock off is really a viable option if I went the 2BR route?



Since Cancun is flooded with inventory, I'd rent from an owner.  They usually rent for close to the cost of MFs, you can choose any resort (and there are reportedly some fabulous resorts in Cancun) and no commitment required.


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## jarta (Sep 17, 2013)

Staying for a week in a 450 sq. ft. studio which, at some resorts, has no balcony and a limited kitchen is not as comfortable as staying in an 800+ sq. ft. 1-br. that always has a balcony and a full kitchen.  Given the minimal resale cost and minimal MF differential (a fraction of the air fare to Cancun for 2), size does matter.

Buy where you want to go in the season you want to be there.  I don't think it matters much if you buy voluntary (LMR or SBP or SDO), rather than mandatory (WKV or Bella) - unless you desire an opportunity to obtain "better" weeks at WKORV/N, HRA, WSJ or Riverfront.  II is pretty effective for getting trades back into most SVO properties if you can be flexible.   However, the greater opportunity to obtain "better" weeks at those resorts using StarOptions at 8 months from arrival is worth the increased cost of buying a top-season, resale mandatory week.

It all depends on how you are going to use whatever you end up buying.  More flexibility of use costs more money.   Salty


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## heathpack (Sep 17, 2013)

I can't advise you too much on the purchase, other than my instinct without running the numbers would be to recommend a SBP or SDO 1BR.  But if you want Lagunamar, buying there is the surest bet and the best guarantee you'll get what you want.

However, we did have a 2BR unit when we were at Lagunamar recently.  The studio would have been 100% fine for us.  We are also a couple, no kids.  The cost to square ft ratio is very reasonable.  We typically eat breakfast in, then late lunch/happy hour by the pool, then we're done for the day.  We agree that the kitchen and LV are nice features but not really worth extra expenditure for us.

Good luck making your decision!

H


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## SMHarman (Sep 17, 2013)

What you want is currently listed on ebay ending in the next 4 hours.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Studio-Prem...51119717492?pt=Timeshares&hash=item232f6fe474
(Perhaps that is why you are asking)

As others have said, the exit strategy is something to consider and this is going to be a poor trader as it is a studio not a 1Br so will not see as much inventory in II etc.

Your plan ticks the box of buying what you need, where you want to go.

Chances are if you want a 1Br you could put a request first into II and trade your studio up to a 1Br for the exchange fee.

At current MF this gets you a week in a resort without an AI surcharge being thrown at you (which is what many other CUN resorts want) for $550 a week.  With an II retrade to get a 1Br it is still under $700 a week which is $100 a night.

The ebay week is a Plat+ which could make resale easier and improve trade value in II.

This should still trade adequately with Starwood in II so with a WLR plat+ studio you should see similar studio or small 1br stock in WKORV, or WKV or HRA so on a year you don't want to go you should have a use option somewhere else in the Starwood network.


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## VacationForever (Sep 17, 2013)

One TUGger reported picking up a 2BR WLR for $1 while another for $1000 inclusive of a free year's use.  I would have picked up the week if I had come across those deals but my other objective is for a possible retro candidate.   Sometimes I see studio or 1BR going for less than $500 on eBAY.  Obviously it is a personal preference as to whether you are happy with a studio.   

Regarding picking up a mandatory week, SVV goes for between $1000 to $3000. You can also pick up a WKV 2BR gold (worth 81K SO) for about 3K.  There is a SVN annual fee of about $125 or $130 (I have lost track).  The fee covers a free II account and free booking within the network.  I like using SOs as it takes the stress out of anticipating whether a week is going to be available for trade in II with a check-in date that you want.   Plus it opens up other options for you to trade into something else other than WLR.  I don't own at SVV or WKV but looking at past MFs, they have been rather stable.   But you are right, the ongoing MFs + SVN would be quite a bit more for these 2 options as compared with owning WLR.


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## tomandrobin (Sep 17, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> What you want is currently listed on ebay ending in the next 4 hours.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Studio-Prem...51119717492?pt=Timeshares&hash=item232f6fe474
> (Perhaps that is why you are asking)



Coincidence?  Or plain dumb luck?


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## tomandrobin (Sep 17, 2013)

Winning bid:
US $86.00


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## channimal (Sep 17, 2013)

did you get it dioxide45?


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## SMHarman (Sep 17, 2013)

tomandrobin said:


> Winning bid:
> US $86.00


EY Plat+2B is $37k retail from what I recall from the pitch?
EOY $19k guessing that the split is about 12k/7k for the 1Br/Studio so from
$7,000 to $86 in 24-48 months.  Whoosh.  Hope those bonus StarPoints were worth it!


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## margolism (Sep 17, 2013)

siesta said:


> I would buy a voluntary starwood trader.  WLR bulk banks, and has great availability even for holiday weeks.  Even if you only bought a 1br small side SDO, although you would get better value from the 2br, you would still be staying for cheaper than a WLR owner if you traded into a 2br, and would be staying for about the same price if you traded into a 1br.  Since WLR is voluntary as well, I see no advantage to buying there.
> 
> You could even consider a mandatory purchase like svv which will give you staroptions should you want to branch out to the other SVO resorts.



I recently made the decision to become a WLR owner, and I went through an exhaustive analysis.

The ONLY reason to buy at WLR right now is if you need to go during the most prime weeks of the year. (And remember, this is coming from a WLR owner.) 

If you are planning on traveling for less prime weeks (i.e., Gold Plus), or even Platinum weeks other than Christmas, New Year's, and President's week, it does not make sense to buy at Lagunamar.  From my research, Starwood has not bulk deposited into II for those weeks - they skip those three particular weeks - so you can only get those weeks using StarOptions, which requires getting a property with higher acquisition costs and higher maintenance fees than WLR.  Even the best II trader (Starwood or otherwise) would not get those uber-prime weeks, since Starwood doesn't make them available in II.  

The minimum I would get at WLR would be a 1BR Platinum Plus unit, since there is no different in maintenance between costs between Gold and Platinum, and a 1BR has better trade value than a studio.  Even if you only wanted to travel during Gold Plus season, you could easily trade the Platinum Plus unit for a Gold week.  I think the Gold week units will be hard to get rid of.    

As an FYI, I recently obtained a 2BR/2BA Platinum Plus lock off at Westin Lagunamar for nothing including closing costs (since 2013 usage was included) - and the ONLY reason I did this was because it would all but guarantee me usage during the most prime school vacation weeks.  (Sure enough, I have 2013 Christmas week booked and 2014 President's Week booked.)  If I needed ANY other week, I would have gotten a trader.  This will be our fourth year at WLR during President's Week.  

Having said that, if the current trends continue and more resorts become all inclusive mandatory, I think the Westin Lagunamar, given the combination of facilities, location, and non-AI status will become increasingly more desirable.  The AI costs required for many II trades into Cancun destroy the time share economics.


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## margolism (Sep 17, 2013)

sptung said:


> while another for $1000 inclusive of a free year's use.



That was me!  I would be happy to share my analysis which took into account acquisition costs, annual costs, and exit strategy.


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## SMHarman (Sep 17, 2013)

margolism said:


> As an FYI, I recently obtained a 2BR/2BA Platinum Plus lock off at Westin Lagunamar for nothing including closing costs (since 2013 usage was included) - and the ONLY reason I did this was because it would all but guarantee me usage during the most prime school vacation weeks.  (Sure enough, I have 2013 Christmas week booked and 2014 President's Week booked.)  If I needed ANY other week, I would have gotten a trader.  This will be our fourth year at WLR during President's Week.


Czar will be hunting you down for that one!


margolism said:


> Having said that, if the current trends continue and more resorts become all inclusive mandatory, I think the Westin Lagunamar, given the combination of facilities, location, and non-AI status will become increasingly more desirable.  The AI costs required for many II trades into Cancun destroy the time share economics.


I agree.  This makes trades into Cancun quite undesirable when you are shelling out $$$ per person per night for AI you don't want.


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## margolism (Sep 17, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> Czar will be hunting you down for that one!
> 
> I agree.  This makes trades into Cancun quite undesirable when you are shelling out $$$ per person per night for AI you don't want.



I would say $$$$$$$ - some of those AI rates are INSANE.  I don't think WLR will do something like that - haven't seen that at the big name (Marriott / Starwood / Hilton) time share resorts.


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## margolism (Sep 17, 2013)

One other comment on the mandatory properties - I had considered an Orlando mandatory property but felt that:

1.  Orlando was probably even more built up with timeshares than Cancun and thus did not seem it would be an improvement in trading power 

2.  The acquisition costs + MFs fees of a Starwood mandatory resort were not nearly as favorable as the WLR.  Would cost me $1500 a year in fees to have enough StarOptions for a 1BR at WLR.  (I pay $300 less for a year for a 2BR LO at WLR.)


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## dioxide45 (Sep 17, 2013)

heathpack said:


> I can't advise you too much on the purchase, other than my instinct without running the numbers would be to recommend a SBP or SDO 1BR.  But if you want Lagunamar, buying there is the surest bet and the best guarantee you'll get what you want.
> 
> However, we did have a 2BR unit when we were at Lagunamar recently.  The studio would have been 100% fine for us.  We are also a couple, no kids.  The cost to square ft ratio is very reasonable.  We typically eat breakfast in, then late lunch/happy hour by the pool, then we're done for the day.  We agree that the kitchen and LV are nice features but not really worth extra expenditure for us.
> 
> ...



I agree about the WLR studio. Amenity wise, it really doesn't have much over the 1BR. Both have one bathroom. Each have a bed, though the 1BR is a king. Both have a washer and dryer. There is also a diswasher and cooktop  in the studio. The 1BR has an advantage on square footage an oven and a full size fridge. We likely would never use the oven in Cancun and the fridge was more than sufficient. I am not sure I can justify MFs on a 1BR that are almost 70% higher than the studio for square footage alone.



SMHarman said:


> What you want is currently listed on ebay ending in the next 4 hours.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Studio-Prem...51119717492?pt=Timeshares&hash=item232f6fe474
> (Perhaps that is why you are asking)





tomandrobin said:


> Coincidence?  Or plain dumb luck?



I have my Ebay saved searches setup, so I did see this one, though it is Platinum + and wouldn't help us with wanting to book in Gold+ season. We would be stuck again exchanging through II trying to get the week we want.



channimal said:


> did you get it dioxide45?



I didn't, though I wasn't trying. At least not yet...



SMHarman said:


> EY Plat+2B is $37k retail from what I recall from the pitch?
> EOY $19k guessing that the split is about 12k/7k for the 1Br/Studio so from
> $7,000 to $86 in 24-48 months.  Whoosh.  Hope those bonus StarPoints were worth it!



I found these numbers from 2010.  It looks like that week sold for about $9000. It also doesn't look like (at least at the time) they were heavily incenting the purchase of Platinum+ weeks.



margolism said:


> I would say $$$$$$$ - some of those AI rates are INSANE.  I don't think WLR will do something like that - haven't seen that at the big name (Marriott / Starwood / Hilton) time share resorts.



This is a big concern of ours with Cancun. We don't want to go AI and I would think buying Lagunamar would protect us from that. We could always try to trade in to the Tri Royals, but they are much further down the strip than where we stayed at the Marriott. The Sands location is better, but AI for II exchangers.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 17, 2013)

margolism said:


> I recently made the decision to become a WLR owner, and I went through an exhaustive analysis.
> 
> The ONLY reason to buy at WLR right now is if you need to go during the most prime weeks of the year. (And remember, this is coming from a WLR owner.)
> 
> ...



Thanks for the great insight. You definitely did your homework. Something that I am trying to do now. We definitely don't need peak holiday weeks. Two things, we aren't tied to school schedules and we don't like paying high airfare that is tied to those peak weeks. We like to travel in the shoulder/off season but still usually tie it to one of the less peak holidays. Like Labor Day, Memorial Week or Thanksgiving. Still holiday weeks, but holidays when people are more apt to stay home.

As I mentioned in the prior post, we are attracted to the location and non AI of WLR. Since we are not looking for a 2BR unit, it seems that getting a 1BR at WLR or even elsewhere may be a cheaper option. Though if we end up being content with a studio only, WLR seems like the cheapest option.

When you see a fabulous resort, it is hard not to fall in love with it and not want to own there. There is something "magical" or romantic about owning a piece of it even when you can get (functionally) the same thing for all practical purposes for the same price or less.


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## tomandrobin (Sep 17, 2013)

For ST John and Harborside, we own gold weeks since we prefer and want to travel there during the summer.


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## PamMo (Sep 17, 2013)

Tomandrobin, I was sorely tempted by this! http://www.ebay.com/itm/390657748286?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 This was the second week offered by the seller - they had week 19, too.


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## tomandrobin (Sep 17, 2013)

PamMo said:


> Tomandrobin, I was sorely tempted by this! http://www.ebay.com/itm/390657748286?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 This was the second week offered by the seller - they had week 19, too.



Geez....$100 for a 2-bedroom.

I saw Bay Vista listed earlier today.

Would be perfect for a upgrade....


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## channimal (Sep 17, 2013)

tomandrobin said:


> Geez....$100 for a 2-bedroom.
> ..........



yeah, but this: Estimated Maintenance fee:  $3,140.00


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## tomandrobin (Sep 17, 2013)

channimal said:


> yeah, but this: Estimated Maintenance fee:  $3,140.00



2-Bd Premium: $2886.97 for 2013.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 17, 2013)

channimal said:


> yeah, but this: Estimated Maintenance fee:  $3,140.00





tomandrobin said:


> 2-Bd Premium: $2886.97 for 2013.



Don't think I want to pick one of those up to get in to Lagunamar


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## Quadmaniac (Sep 18, 2013)

Have you considered the bottom line dollar of the whole trip to Cancun ? With how cheap flight and resort packages are, even at the 5 star resorts, does it even make sense to trade into Cancun ? I'm sure its even cheaper in the US, but in Canada, we get all inclusive for $800-1200 depending on the time of year. Separately flight alone is sometimes $600-700. Adding up the costs, I'm not sure too many are further ahead buying flights separately, booking a timeshare vs going all inclusive 5* ?


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## dioxide45 (Sep 18, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> Have you considered the bottom line dollar of the whole trip to Cancun ? With how cheap flight and resort packages are, even at the 5 star resorts, does it even make sense to trade into Cancun ? I'm sure its even cheaper in the US, but in Canada, we get all inclusive for $800-1200 depending on the time of year. Separately flight alone is sometimes $600-700. Adding up the costs, I'm not sure too many are further ahead buying flights separately, booking a timeshare vs going all inclusive 5* ?



Are those all inclusive prices you mention per person based on double occupancy and include air? They could also be for a 4 or 5 night trip instead of 7. Either way, we wouldn't go AI in Cancun. We are not big drinkers and there are a tonne of great restaurants in Cancun. Being tied down to three or four options at an AI resort just isn't for us.


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## SMHarman (Sep 18, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> Have you considered the bottom line dollar of the whole trip to Cancun ? With how cheap flight and resort packages are, even at the 5 star resorts, does it even make sense to trade into Cancun ? I'm sure its even cheaper in the US, but in Canada, we get all inclusive for $800-1200 depending on the time of year. Separately flight alone is sometimes $600-700. Adding up the costs, I'm not sure too many are further ahead buying flights separately, booking a timeshare vs going all inclusive 5* ?


The UK and Canadian markets both do the 'package' far more than the US.
Those flights are often cheap as it is a chartered plane (esp out of the UK).
I think the more sprawling population of the US makes running charter airlines not work as well as the dozen or so departure points you can operate from in Canada or the UK.
The problem I find with AI is often it is 'kinda AI'.  The alcohol is $3 bottles of 'well' liquor, the food is buffet food and dining hall dining.  As a result I go buy my own better bottle of Rum to add to their mixers, or decide their mixers are so bad I am buying fresh pineapple and cream of coconut and getting the blender out.
Similarly 7 nights stir crazy on the same dining hall food I'm looking for something different.  There are some great restaurants in Cancun.


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## margolism (Sep 18, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> Are those all inclusive prices you mention per person based on double occupancy and include air? They could also be for a 4 or 5 night trip instead of 7. Either way, we wouldn't go AI in Cancun. We are not big drinkers and there are a tonne of great restaurants in Cancun. Being tied down to three or four options at an AI resort just isn't for us.



The AI packages I have seen (even those with air) for a stay of seven nights (or more) never came out cost effective.  If you want to only go for four nights, for two people, then in some instances it does.  With three or more people, for a week stay, or for holiday weeks, forget it.

BTW, if you want some additional "off the beaten path" restaurant recos in Cancun, from a foodie's perspective, let me know.


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## heathpack (Sep 18, 2013)

margolism said:


> The AI packages I have seen (even those with air) for a stay of seven nights (or more) never came out cost effective.  If you want to only go for four nights, for two people, then in some instances it does.  With three or more people, for a week stay, or for holiday weeks, forget it.
> 
> BTW, if you want some additional "off the beaten path" restaurant recos in Cancun, from a foodie's perspective, let me know.



Totally off topic but we should start a foodie thread!  The first question I have whenever we book a trip is "where are we going to eat?"

H


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## channimal (Sep 18, 2013)

heathpack said:


> Totally off topic but we should start a foodie thread!  The first question I have whenever we book a trip is "where are we going to eat?"
> 
> H



Absolutely agree, but maybe as a sticky in the respective regional forum, independent of ts system?


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## SMHarman (Sep 18, 2013)

heathpack said:


> Totally off topic but we should start a foodie thread!  The first question I have whenever we book a trip is "where are we going to eat?"
> 
> H



http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186217&highlight=cancun+dining


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## Quadmaniac (Sep 18, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> Are those all inclusive prices you mention per person based on double occupancy and include air? They could also be for a 4 or 5 night trip instead of 7. Either way, we wouldn't go AI in Cancun. We are not big drinkers and there are a tonne of great restaurants in Cancun. Being tied down to three or four options at an AI resort just isn't for us.



No these are for 7 day trips per person. For us here, if we are paying $700 for a flight and AI is $1200. For two, the flights would be $1400 plus $700 for timeshare equals $2100. AI for two is $2400. I am not a drinker either, but for the difference in price and what I am going to spend on food anyways, it does not make much sense. It does not prevent me from eating out elsewhere a few times, but I am not saving much doing it separately. 

Maybe flights are cheaper from the US, I don't know, but I know it is hard to beat the packages. I went to Mexico independently twice and after what I paid for accommodations and flights, I would have been better off buying a package than doing it all separately.

I haven't tried AI in Mexico, I know I did not like it in Jamaica as it was supposed to be 4.5* but really 3* and the food was pretty bad to be honest. From what others have said if you go 5* it is supposed to be pretty good.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 14, 2015)

*Resurrecting an old thread!*

Okay, I am resurrecting this old thread. I skimmed through it again. I am kind of glad that we didn't pull the trigger any buy anything back in 2013. It seems that if we had bought a non mandatory property other than WLR back then, we might not be able to easily get what we wanted. II deposits seem to have really slowed down for Starwood.

We are again perusing Ebay and some other sources for a potential week to pick up. A 1BR EOY week was recently offered up in the Bargain Basement that I unfortunately missed until it was too late. Though after looking at completed Ebay auctions, it doesn't look like Lagunamar Gold Plus weeks sell for very much. A 2BR annual ended with zero bids, though it has some hefty closing costs and with 2016 MFs of close to $1600 due soon. So I suspect that had a lot to do with it when there are a lot of auctions where the seller is paying closing.

The one new question I have in our new search is WLR vs mandatory. As I previously indicated, the only other property we would be at all interested in visiting would be the Westin St John. In my reading about St John, it seems like it is also a very hard exchange through SVN? Is that true?

We would probably visit Cancun two our of every 6 years (two out of three use periods). Buying Lagunamar probably makes the most sense with this in mind. If we had a 2BR we would probably either take friends or family along with us or if no one was going we would book two weeks in a row. If we go the WLR route, I have concluded that we probably want an an EOY 2BR or 1BR Gold Plus week and  Though if we bought WLR, we would probably end up going to WLR every use period because exchanging through II isn't going to give us many more options that our Marriott's offer. Plus, we wouldn't want to have to pay the additional membership and exchange fees. We wouldn't be buying WLR as an exchanger.

However, if St John is a possibility with StarOptions, I would be more inclined to give a mandatory property a much closer look. Perhaps it would be worth the little extra money to buy mandatory. So what does availability look like these days using StarOptions in St John?


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## DeniseM (Dec 14, 2015)

Personally, at this juncture, I would not buy anything, because there is no way to know how the acquisition of Starwood by II is going to impact availability.  I'd hold off until we know more about how Interval will manage the Starwood properties.


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 14, 2015)

How many are you traveling with?


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## dioxide45 (Dec 15, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> How many are you traveling with?



In most cases it would be either two or four adults. If two adults, we would lock off and stay two weeks. If four, then we would book the whole 2BR unit.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 15, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Personally, at this juncture, I would not buy anything, because there is no way to know how the acquisition of Starwood by II is going to impact availability.  I'd hold off until we know more about how Interval will manage the Starwood properties.



You're just too logical Denise, what fun is there in that?  It could be two or more years before we have any idea how the II/VSE merger will mean for II invetory. I want instant gratification!

Of course, I have waited two years already. Though, even if Starwood inventory does come back to II I was thinking that buying at Lagunamar would give me a sure thing since they really can't take away what I physically own. The next best thing would be to buy mandatory, but Starwood can of course change that game any time they wish.


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## Henry M. (Dec 15, 2015)

Only the Virgin Grand section of St. John is mandatory. The rest are like WLR. In the mandatory section you buy a fixed week and a fixed unit. There are no lock-offs. It is theoretically possible to float within your season, but practically, it is difficult to move your stay. Be sure you can commit to go a specific week if you buy there. Some people love the fixed week concept. It doesn't work for me. I need the flexibility to move my travel dates. I also really like the lock-off concept. It greatly adds flexibility to my plans. Too bad it is not offered in St. John.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 15, 2015)

emuyshondt said:


> Only the Virgin Grand section of St. John is mandatory. The rest are like WLR. In the mandatory section you buy a fixed week and a fixed unit. There are no lock-offs. It is theoretically possible to float within your season, but practically, it is difficult to move your stay. Be sure you can commit to go a specific week if you buy there. Some people love the fixed week concept. It doesn't work for me. I need the flexibility to move my travel dates. I also really like the lock-off concept. It greatly adds flexibility to my plans. Too bad it is not offered in St. John.



Thanks for the information. I wasn't necessarily looking to buy mandatory in St John. I was looking to possibly buy mandatory outside of St John and use the StarOptions to secure St John. So my question was, how hard is it to book St John using StarOptions eight months out? We don't travel high season, but certainly don't want to travel in peak hurricane season either. We usually tend to travel in April/May or late fall (mid Oct though early Dec).

I like the idea of just owning at Lagunamar, but if we bought non mandatory there, we would be tied to Lagunamar every use period. Not a bad thing, but would like other options if the need ever arises and ST John is the first place that would be our my list.


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## Henry M. (Dec 15, 2015)

I don't know how difficult it is to exchange in anymore. I exchanged in a few years ago, and then actually purchased there at Bay Vista. I like it a lot on St. John. It seems like the expansion of the resort and the availability of floating weeks in the new sections should make it easier to trade in, but it is not guaranteed.

I've always bought where I would want to go, so don't trade very much. I also don't worry too much about the upcoming changes. I'm pretty confident the locations I own will continue to be well kept, regardless of any splits or changes in management, and I will want to be visiting them for years to come. I would prefer mandatory properties too (though I did buy Bay Vista due to the floating weeks and nicer finish).


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## okwiater (Dec 15, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> Thanks for the information. I wasn't necessarily looking to buy mandatory in St John. I was looking to possibly buy mandatory outside of St John and use the StarOptions to secure St John. So my question was, how hard is it to book St John using StarOptions eight months out? We don't travel high season, but certainly don't want to travel in peak hurricane season either. We usually tend to travel in April/May or late fall (mid Oct though early Dec).
> 
> I like the idea of just owning at Lagunamar, but if we bought non mandatory there, we would be tied to Lagunamar every use period. Not a bad thing, but would like other options if the need ever arises and ST John is the first place that would be our my list.



Lagunamar (WLR) is a much easier trade than St. John (WSJ) at all times of the year. WSJ has been easier lately and will likely remain that way for a few years while the remaining hotel rooms are converted to [unsold] timeshare inventory. However, I expect that it will become more difficult.

The advantage to buying at WLR is that it appears to be your primary destination. You can almost never go wrong buying where you want to go, since everything else (II, SVN, etc.) can feasibly be taken away at some point in the future. In addition, it is a lockoff, so you can potentially trade 1 week for 2 weeks in II, although the value of doing so is diminished as compared to the 2011 timeframe.

The advantage to buying a mandatory property is of course access to the SVN. You would need to decide if it's important to you to be able to access other resorts within the network. If so, you can buy SVV, WKV, or WSJ-VGV.

Most of the folks here would tell you to buy either SVV or WKV by deciding between lower up-front purchase price and higher MFs (SVV Bella or Key West phases) and higher up-front purchase price and lower MFs (WKV Platinum Plus season). In your case, unless you are married to the idea of being able to split a lockoff to trade each side in II, I think purchasing WSJ Virgin Grand could be the best choice. Reason being, it guarantees you access to the resort no matter what happens with SVN availability, and also gives you a boatload of StarOptions for being able to trade into WLR. In fact, a WSJ Pool Villa in April (one of your preferred travel months) will yield 257,700 StarOptions which is easily enough to book 11 days at WLR in a 2-bedroom lockoff.

Anyway, food for thought...

_Editing for full disclosure: I own at all of the resorts mentioned -- WLR, WKV, WSJ, and SVV -- so I am speaking from experience._


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## SandyPGravel (Dec 15, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> So my question was, how hard is it to book St John using StarOptions eight months out? We don't travel high season, but certainly don't want to travel in peak hurricane season either. We usually tend to travel in April/May or late fall (mid Oct though early Dec).
> 
> .



I have been able to book St. John in Oct & Nov, but had to do it exactly 8 months out.  (Lots of businesses closed still in October though.)  We fell in love with St. John and bought resale.  Now we can go every year, in the dead of winter!!


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## margolism (Dec 15, 2015)

There always seems to be availability during the Gold Plus weeks, either directly through Starwood, or as rentals on Redweek.com.  They don't command super high prices since there is so much inventory during those weeks.  

I personally wouldn't purchase a WLR Gold Plus week.  

(I own a WLR PP resale week which we are extracting tremendous value from.)


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## RLS50 (Dec 15, 2015)

Normally I would never consider buying a timeshare in Mexico, and I am definitely not a fan of AI resorts.   

But interesting with WLR is that I have never seen it available for a Getaway in II, even going out the maximum time period (1+ year).  I also can't seem to trade into it, even a low demand offseason week.  We are using a good oceanfront week that allows us to trade into multiple places in Aruba, and many other properties in the Caribbean, but we can't ever find WLR.

So what is the deal with that?   In theory, trading into Mexico with what we have should be easy and we do have access to every other property in Mexico except for WLR.   

Is it because WLR is not AI and makes the demand for it unique?   Is it just that we don't already own a Starwood or Marriott week so we have no chance without that preference?

My experience might not be the norm, can't say.  We have only been stalking WLR for about 6 months or so.   This thread started in 2013 so we don't have the history with this resort most have.

We have got some good feedback from one existing owner, but curious to hear others thoughts or experiences?


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## Helios (Dec 15, 2015)

SandyPGravel said:


> I have been able to book St. John in Oct & Nov, but had to do it exactly 8 months out.  (Lots of businesses closed still in October though.)  We fell in love with St. John and bought resale.  Now we can go every year, in the dead of winter!!



I like late November at WSJ.  Weather is nice and the businesses are open.  It seems like Thanksgiving is hard to get even at 8 months but other November weeks are somewhat easy at 8 months...Just be ready to click at mid night EST.


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## jlp879 (Dec 15, 2015)

RLS50 said:


> ....But interesting with WLR is that I have never seen it available for a Getaway in II, even going out the maximum time period (1+ year).  I also can't seem to trade into it, even a low demand offseason week.  We are using a good oceanfront week that allows us to trade into multiple places in Aruba, and many other properties in the Caribbean, but we can't ever find WLR.



This spring I purchased an II getaway for WLR in a studio in April.  Lined it up to precede a one bedroom trade that I had got with the Starwood preference so I had two back to back weeks at WLR.  

I actually had seen WLR other times as an II getaway, usually in shoulder season.


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## Ken555 (Dec 15, 2015)

WLR used to be often available as a getaway and an easy trader. Not sure of last few years, though.

I applaud the concept of buying where you want to go. But, with so many choices in Cancun, it seems very likely that a nice resort will have a week available via getaway, if not via owner rental, to avoid having the need to buy a deed. It's going to be hard to sell WLR, especially a non prime week, so I'd consider renting as a solution instead.


Sent from my iPad


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## okwiater (Dec 15, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> It's going to be hard to sell WLR, especially a non prime week, so I'd consider renting as a solution instead.



Not exactly true. The low MFs have kept prices above $0 even for Gold Plus weeks. Platinum Plus fetches reasonable resale prices. (Still a huge discount as compared to developer pricing, though)


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## Ken555 (Dec 15, 2015)

okwiater said:


> Not exactly true. The low MFs have kept prices above $0 even for Gold Plus weeks. Platinum Plus fetches reasonable resale prices. (Still a huge discount as compared to developer pricing, though)




Thanks for the correction. I don't follow WLR closely, but it seems there's always a lot of inventory available whenever I look.


Sent from my iPad


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## margolism (Dec 15, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> WLR used to be often available as a getaway and an easy trader. Not sure of last few years, though.
> 
> I applaud the concept of buying where you want to go. But, with so many choices in Cancun, it seems very likely that a nice resort will have a week available via getaway, if not via owner rental, to avoid having the need to buy a deed. It's going to be hard to sell WLR, especially a non prime week, so I'd consider renting as a solution instead.
> 
> ...



A big issue with many timeshares in Cancun is the all-inclusive requirement.  There are a number of nice properties in Cancun, but many of them have all inclusive requirements, quickly limiting the number of viable choices (i.e., properties without an AI requirement.)


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## RLS50 (Dec 15, 2015)

jlp879 said:


> This spring I purchased an II getaway for WLR in a studio in April.  Lined it up to precede a one bedroom trade that I had got with the Starwood preference so I had two back to back weeks at WLR.
> 
> I actually had seen WLR other times as an II getaway, usually in shoulder season.


Thanks for that feedback.   It must just be timing.  For example right now in II it isn't showing WLR availability going all the way thru 6/14/2017.

By the way, how did you enjoy WLR?   We have never been but going in 2016.  Pretty excited to go and check it out.  We met a TUG member that owns there and been a few times.   The feedback and pictures they provided us were really outstanding.


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## RLS50 (Dec 15, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> WLR used to be often available as a getaway and an easy trader. Not sure of last few years, though.
> 
> I applaud the concept of buying where you want to go. But, with so many choices in Cancun, it seems very likely that a nice resort will have a week available via getaway, if not via owner rental, to avoid having the need to buy a deed. It's going to be hard to sell WLR, especially a non prime week, so I'd consider renting as a solution instead.
> 
> ...


As I mentioned previously we frequently see we have access to almost every property in Mexico almost the entire year except Week 51/52 when some properties are fully booked.   

But WLR?  Been impossible for us to find as Getaway or trade.   Sounds like some others have found a Getaway, but no luck for us.

Maybe a part of the reason is because as Margolism said it is one of the few non AI properties...and additionally it is high end and not a dive?    I don't know. 

It almost feels like in II the Travel Demand Index for Cancun might be 14, but for WLR it is 50 or something.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 15, 2015)

Thanks for all the responses. Definitely a lot of great information. My only concern with buying St John is the extra upfront acquisition cost along with what looks like an outrageous annual MF. With the plan to use it in Cancun most years, it seems like an expensive plan to only use it in St John once every six years or so.

It is good to know that St John has availability through SVN in shoulder season. So it looks like owning mandatory could get us to St John if we are able to plan exactly eight months out. Even if we made it there once, it would make us happy.

I have been searching the Sightings forum for II bulk banks for WLR and it doesn't look like they have dried up completely, but they do seem to be closer to checkin and there are very few 2BR units available. Owning WLR would give us the best flexibility and owning mandatory outside of there would be second best I suppose.


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## hunkyleebo (Dec 16, 2015)

We've bought 3 gold weeks at WLR for next to nothing.  They rent for more than MF if we don't need all 3.  We prefer gold because there are fewer kids due to school schedules.  You can't beat the location and the resort and its workers are incredible.


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## okwiater (Dec 16, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> Thanks for all the responses. Definitely a lot of great information. My only concern with buying St John is the extra upfront acquisition cost along with what looks like an outrageous annual MF. With the plan to use it in Cancun most years, it seems like an expensive plan to only use it in St John once every six years or so.
> 
> It is good to know that St John has availability through SVN in shoulder season. So it looks like owning mandatory could get us to St John if we are able to plan exactly eight months out. Even if we made it there once, it would make us happy.
> 
> I have been searching the Sightings forum for II bulk banks for WLR and it doesn't look like they have dried up completely, but they do seem to be closer to checkin and there are very few 2BR units available. Owning WLR would give us the best flexibility and owning mandatory outside of there would be second best I suppose.



Just to clarify, the 3-bedroom St. John pool villas have one of the lowest MF in the system, per StarOption. But they come with a ton of StarOptions (257,700), which makes the annual cost of about $3,000 quite a bit more than SVV or WKV. It just depends on how many StarOptions you want.

It sounds like the best plan for you might be to purchase at WLR, either annual or bi-annual, and use, rent, or trade it depending on your desired travel plans that year. If you really only want to go to WSJ once, you might just consider renting there from an owner.


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## suzannesimon (Dec 16, 2015)

I just closed today on Week 51 Platinum Plus at Lagunamar for all the reasons mentioned here - non-AI, beautiful resort, great price and low maintenance fees.  The fact there are no Star Options doesn't bother me.  I own 2 weeks at HRA and have never used Star Options - with those maintenance fees, it isn't worth it.  I use them or rent them.  I thought Lagunamar would be a good trader because no one knew until the Estoppel came in that it was a fixed week. Once I learned that, I probably won't be trading this one either.  I love fixed weeks - no drama.  Called them today to pay the maintenance fee and they had already booked Christmas week next year.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Dec 16, 2015)

*Congratulation Suzanne*



suzannesimon said:


> I just closed today on Week 51 Platinum Plus at Lagunamar for all the reasons mentioned here - non-AI, beautiful resort, great price and low maintenance fees.



I saw your post when you found out via the  estoppel was a fixed week 51

Sounded like a slam dunk winner .


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## margolism (Dec 16, 2015)

What size unit did you get?


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## suzannesimon (Dec 16, 2015)

margolism said:


> What size unit did you get?



It's a 2 bedroom.  Neither the agent nor the seller knew what they were selling - just dumb luck for me.  I thought it was a straight Platinum week.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 16, 2015)

okwiater said:


> Just to clarify, the 3-bedroom St. John pool villas have one of the lowest MF in the system, per StarOption. But they come with a ton of StarOptions (257,700), which makes the annual cost of about $3,000 quite a bit more than SVV or WKV. It just depends on how many StarOptions you want.
> 
> It sounds like the best plan for you might be to purchase at WLR, either annual or bi-annual, and use, rent, or trade it depending on your desired travel plans that year. If you really only want to go to WSJ once, you might just consider renting there from an owner.



Certainly the lowest MFs per StarOption, but would never be able to use all those StarOptions. There is just no way I can commit to that much of a MF each year, no matter how many options. I would be willing to pay more per StarOption to have a smaller MF per year.


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