# Today is the day I hate Marriott Timeshares!



## jpc763 (Jan 16, 2012)

I paid my maintenance fees today  

$2609.45 for 2 weeks per year! :annoyed: 

When I bought in 1999 my first unit (Imperial Palms) the maintenance fees were $702.29.  Now, they are $1242.54 a 56.52% overall increase!  

I wish my 401k had that kind of return over the past 12 years!


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## Smooth Air (Jan 16, 2012)

I hate it too....almost $1400 per week! Ouch!


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## scrapngen (Jan 16, 2012)

Ugh! and it hits you right after the holidays...


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## PamMo (Jan 16, 2012)

jpc763 said:


> I paid my maintenance fees today
> 
> $2609.45 for 2 weeks per year! :annoyed:
> 
> ...



For what it's worth, over twelve years, that is roughly a compounded annual growth rate (CAGR) of 4.87% compared with the DJIA's anemic .48% CAGR since Jan 2000. (But frankly, I've had a lot more fun with my timeshares than with my investments over the last decade!)


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## EKniager (Jan 16, 2012)

PamMo beat me to the party but I will add that if you aren't making 5%/yr on your 401(k) you are too conservative!


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## Beefnot (Jan 16, 2012)

jpc763 said:


> I paid my maintenance fees today
> 
> $2609.45 for 2 weeks per year! :annoyed:
> 
> ...



Not to rub it in, but thatis a 76.9% increase.  Your MFs have increased by $540.23 since 1999. Divide that by the original $702.29 and...damn...a big a$$ increase in 13 years.


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## Beefnot (Jan 16, 2012)

EKniager said:


> PamMo beat me to the party but I will add that if you aren't making 5%/yr on your 401(k) you are too conservative!



Not necessarily true. The market has stagnated on average since 2000.  Market timing could have produced superior returns, but that requires luck or foresight.  More aggressive investing could well have produced far inferior returns.


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## EKniager (Jan 16, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> Not necessarily true. The market has stagnated on average since 2000.  Market timing could have produced superior returns, but that requires luck or foresight.  More aggressive investing could well have produced far inferior returns.



LOL, I know that's why I did not include a curve of the S&P for that period and included the


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## jpc763 (Jan 16, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> Not to rub it in, but thatis a 76.9% increase.  Your MFs have increased by $540.23 since 1999. Divide that by the original $702.29 and...damn...a big a$$ increase in 13 years.



Good point.  Math atrophy!


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## dougp26364 (Jan 16, 2012)

jpc763 said:


> I paid my maintenance fees today
> 
> $2609.45 for 2 weeks per year! :annoyed:
> 
> ...



It could be worse. You could be like me and own at two of the higher priced Marriott's, Grand Chateau and Ocean Pointe. We own two 3 bedroom silver season weeks and pay ~ $3,200 for both.

I think the highest price Marriott resort by sq. footage would have to be Mountain Valley Lodge. I believe the one bedroom units there are over $1,000/year in MF's.


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## Big Matt (Jan 16, 2012)

I only have one comment.

Imperial Palms Villas are a much better property now than when you bought.  Sure they are older, but they are upgraded with the most modern appliances and TVs and have granite and wonderful furniture.  Great use of reserve money IMO.


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## MOXJO7282 (Jan 16, 2012)

I know MFs are tough to handle but I feel for sure we're getting our monies worth. 

I never saw much value in the 1BDRM units quite honestly because MFs for the 2BDRMs were only slightly higher but a nice Marriott 2BDRM during prime time has and continues to be a good value to own for the most part.

For instance MOC MF is $1899. Yes pricey but for a 2BDRM OV/OF during prime time that $1899 is quite reasonable.

Same is true for 90% of Marriott 2 BDRMs plats I believe.


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## OldPantry (Jan 16, 2012)

dougp26364 said:


> It could be worse. You could be like me and own at two of the higher priced Marriott's, Grand Chateau and Ocean Pointe. We own two 3 bedroom silver season weeks and pay ~ $3,200 for both.
> 
> I think the highest price Marriott resort by sq. footage would have to be Mountain Valley Lodge. I believe the one bedroom units there are over $1,000/year in MF's.


If you really want to cry, try owning in Hawaii, particularly Kauai, Ko Olina or Maui.  Those MFs have risen hugely (over 70% for me at Ko Olina), and in many cases, rentals no longer cover them.  That's painful.


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## EKniager (Jan 17, 2012)

MOXJO7282 said:


> I know MFs are tough to handle but I feel for sure we're getting our monies worth.
> 
> I never saw much value in the 1BDRM units quite honestly because MFs for the 2BDRMs were only slightly higher but a nice Marriott 2BDRM during prime time has and continues to be a good value to own for the most part.
> 
> ...



It's not realistic to use these numbers without amortizing the upfront cost on top of them as well.  Even if you spread them out over 20 years, the developer pricing adds at least another $1,000/yr.

So, if I-
+ spead the $20K purchase over the life of my Surf Club usage, again let's say 20 years, and... 
+ rent out the lockoff to cover MF's annually, and 
+ assume a lost opportunity of 5% return on my capital (another $1K/yr)

... assuming the rental revenue for my "studio" unit keeps up with the MF's, over a 20 year period it will cost me a fixed $2K/yr to stay on the beach in a one bedroom condo (remember the lockoff bedroom is gone).  

In your words, that is definitely still more than "reasonable."


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## EKniager (Jan 17, 2012)

OldPantry said:


> If you really want to cry, try owning in Hawaii, particularly Kauai, Ko Olina or Maui.  Those MFs have risen hugely (over 70% for me at Ko Olina), and in many cases, rentals no longer cover them.  That's painful.



I think those are like the Four Seasons units.  People were paying >$40K to the developer for those units but due to the high MFs (>$2,500) they are being sold at huge discounts!


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## MOXJO7282 (Jan 17, 2012)

EKniager said:


> It's not realistic to use these numbers without amortizing the upfront cost on top of them as well.  Even if you spread them out over 20 years, the developer pricing adds at least another $1,000/yr.
> 
> So, if I-
> + spead the $20K purchase over the life of my Surf Club usage, again let's say 20 years, and...
> ...



In my case I don't "assume" any lost opportunity because I financed *ALL* my purchases from 0% credit cards for the last 10 years believe it or not.  We always had good credit with high limits and thankfully enough steady income to pay down the "loans" as we went. 

For years it was like taking candy from a baby because there were so many offers and no associated fees, so I would flip at times several $100k around every 12 months for free.  Over the lst 5 years they started to grandually introduce transfer fees but those are still manageable so I still pay the game successfully. 

The last one I still have a balance on is MOW. I start by using my MAR Visa to pay a large portion for the points and then used a 0% card to pay off. 

Incidentally my first 2 Mauis and Aruba Surf I paid full with MAR Visa first for big points but they stopped allowing full payment with MAR Visa a number of years ago.

I'm down to $1800 on the $25k I "borrowed" for the MOW.  I have paid some financing because of the fees but nothing close, probably 1-2% on some over the course of time, but nothing near 5%.

The fact is we do this with almost every major purchase because we still have great credit and very high limits because of what we did years ago opening up every card we could. We have one card with $95k credit limit and no annual fee. It does have a 3% fee but I can easily negotiate that into the cost of anything. 

For instance just put in nice vinyl fencing for $4200. Negotiatied with 4 suppliers. Did final negotiations with lowest and favored supplier who threw in removal of existing fence which lowered price by $400. I then used the 0% credit card and wrote him a check that I don't have to pay off for 12 months. 

We do this on every major purchase and it really allows us to manage our income and expenses very well and procure things we wouldn't be able to if we had to shell out for cost for the item upfront.

Even for my daughter's college costs that are on the horizon will be handled the same way.  I have one card with $10k limit and only 1% transfer fee that I have ready. I can't negotiate with the colleges but at 1% I'll be happy to float the money for 12 months instead of just paying in one shot.


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## jpc763 (Jan 17, 2012)

dougp26364 said:


> It could be worse. You could be like me and own at two of the higher priced Marriott's, Grand Chateau and Ocean Pointe. We own two 3 bedroom silver season weeks and pay ~ $3,200 for both.
> 
> I think the highest price Marriott resort by sq. footage would have to be Mountain Valley Lodge. I believe the one bedroom units there are over $1,000/year in MF's.



Don't get me wrong, I love my Marriott's the other 364 days of the year!   

I use my Ko Olina week every Even year (going for sprint break this year) and use my Shadow Ridge for Thanksgiving every Odd year.

These days, I always trade the Imperial Palms week mainly because we do not want to go to Orlando during Winter, Spring Break, Summer or Christmas time (Plat Season).  We need to follow the kids school schedule so for 2012, we traded a spring week for Thanksgiving week so will be able to check out what all of my Reserve Fees have been spent on.

Just grumbling about spending 2600.

J

Imperial Palms is a great property.  It is very convenient to Disney


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## jont (Jan 17, 2012)

MOXJO7282 said:


> In my case I don't "assume" any lost opportunity because I financed *ALL* my purchases from 0% credit cards for the last 10 years believe it or not.  We always had good credit with high limits and thankfully enough steady income to pay down the "loans" as we went.
> 
> For years it was like taking candy from a baby because there were so many offers and no associated fees, so I would flip at times several $100k around every 12 months for free.  Over the lst 5 years they started to grandually introduce transfer fees but those are still manageable so I still pay the game successfully.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing Joe.
That's an interesting way of approaching it. I'm not sure I would have the
will to try that but I admire your creatitivy and insight. 
Enjoy your upcomming trip to Maui.


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## EKniager (Jan 17, 2012)

MOXJO7282 said:


> In my case I don't "assume" any lost opportunity because I financed *ALL* my purchases from 0% credit cards for the last 10 years believe it or not.



The lost opportunity I was referring to was the money to be made on your capital.  That is, whether you borrowed it or paid in cash, the opportunity is to invest that money in something that appreciates.  (BTW, if you can borrow at 1% and get a guaranteed return of >1%, that's called printing money!) 

I'm not sure what the number is today, as I left "corporate America" a while ago, but before we would invest in anything we had to prove that the return was greater than the cost of capital, i.e., 10%. If you couldn't beat that, there was no reason to take on the risk.  

Every time I read a post here where someone says, "Ya we lost money but we have great memories," my jaw drops.  You can have great vacation memories without owning a timeshare property.  If the economics are not profitable to own them, rent them (or some other hotel room, condo, etc.) and invest the upfront money!


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## SueDonJ (Jan 17, 2012)

EKniager said:


> ... Every time I read a post here where someone says, "Ya we lost money but we have great memories," my jaw drops.  You can have great vacation memories without owning a timeshare property.  If the economics are not profitable to own them, rent them (or some other hotel room, condo, etc.) and invest the upfront money!



Obviously you're somebody who doesn't think your money is "working" for you unless it's making you more money.  I expect that if you feel so strongly about money invested in timesharing being wasted unless it couldn't have earned you more money elsewhere, you probably feel that way about all the money you invest in other "luxury" spending as well - eating in restaurants, driving any car but the lowest-priced brands, shopping for clothing at any place but consignment or discount houses, using electronic gadgets where cheaper alternatives are still available ...

I like the balance where anybody is free to choose how much of his money needs to be designated as "working" money and how much of it can be spent on indulgences that aren't meant to do anything other than please the purchaser in ways that make sense to him.  If I'm happy with the experiences that I've gotten from my timeshares and I haven't sacrificed or jeopardized my financial security by purchasing them, why are you induced to drop your jaw simply because I've chosen to pay a premium for the convenience of owning timeshares?  If I wanted to forever play the vacation rental game then I wouldn't have bought the timeshares.  If I wanted to vacation in structures/locations that aren't timeshares then I wouldn't have bought timeshares.

If I am not spending YOUR money, why do you feel a need to comment negatively on the way I'm spending?  It's one thing to say that you're not comfortable with purchasing timeshares unless certain conditions exist, but it's quite another to insinuate that anyone who buys under any conditions but the ones you accept is doing it wrong.  As far as I'm concerned, the ONLY timeshare purchase that's wrong is the one that puts the purchaser in a financial hole from which s/he can't recover.  Timeshares are no different in that way than any other luxury spending.


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## EKniager (Jan 17, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> Obviously you're somebody who doesn't think your money is "working" for you unless it's making you more money.  I expect that if you feel so strongly about money invested in timesharing being wasted unless it couldn't have earned you more money elsewhere, you probably feel that way about all the money you invest in other "luxury" spending as well - eating in restaurants, driving any car but the lowest-priced brands, shopping for clothing at any place but consignment or discount houses, using electronic gadgets where cheaper alternatives are still available ...



LOL, obviously I don't think all timeshare purchases are a waste of money, we own two weeks!  My comments are at the tail end of a longer conversation and I think taken a bit out of context, but... I'll apologize anyway to anyone who was offended by my last comment.


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## Beefnot (Jan 17, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> Obviously you're somebody who doesn't think your money is "working" for you unless it's making you more money.  I expect that if you feel so strongly about money invested in timesharing being wasted unless it couldn't have earned you more money elsewhere, you probably feel that way about all the money you invest in other "luxury" spending as well - eating in restaurants, driving any car but the lowest-priced brands, shopping for clothing at any place but consignment or discount houses, using electronic gadgets where cheaper alternatives are still available ...
> 
> I like the balance where anybody is free to choose how much of his money needs to be designated as "working" money and how much of it can be spent on indulgences that aren't meant to do anything other than please the purchaser in ways that make sense to him.  If I'm happy with the experiences that I've gotten from my timeshares and I haven't sacrificed or jeopardized my financial security by purchasing them, why are you induced to drop your jaw simply because I've chosen to pay a premium for the convenience of owning timeshares?  If I wanted to forever play the vacation rental game then I wouldn't have bought the timeshares.  If I wanted to vacation in structures/locations that aren't timeshares then I wouldn't have bought timeshares.
> 
> If I am not spending YOUR money, why do you feel a need to comment negatively on the way I'm spending?  It's one thing to say that you're not comfortable with purchasing timeshares unless certain conditions exist, but it's quite another to insinuate that anyone who buys under any conditions but the ones you accept is doing it wrong.  As far as I'm concerned, the ONLY timeshare purchase that's wrong is the one that puts the purchaser in a financial hole from which s/he can't recover.  Timeshares are no different in that way than any other luxury spending.



Zeesh, take a chill with the sensitivity and indignation.  You may disagree, but he still raises a fair point.  If, I'm saying _if_, it were possible to have the same (or very similar) vacations one has had by renting instead of owning, then most would choose to rent.  Also, if someone is saying that they are getting their money's worth (referencing a previous post), then it is legitimate to challenge someone's math.

Small counterpoint is that most do not do that assessment up front.  Hindsight is 20/20.  So now that the upfront cost paid to the developer is sunk, the "practical" math now comes down to the MFs.


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## jont (Jan 17, 2012)

Just my 2 cents worth
The majority of people buying timeshares are like me, I think. I did not buy as an investment but more like a consumable, something to be used and enjoyed.Although they can be much more expensive and have ongoing maintenance obligations,I think of them more like cars, appliances, electronics,clothing etc, something to enjoy and use frequently. I do not expect to get a return on my money.I just try to buy smart, pay a fair price and then move on. If i'm able to rent or trade up some times, even better.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 17, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> Zeesh, take a chill with the sensitivity and indignation.  You may disagree, but he still raises a fair point.  If, I'm saying _if_, it were possible to have the same (or very similar) vacations one has had by renting instead of owning, then most would choose to rent.  Also, if someone is saying that they are getting their money's worth (referencing a previous post), then it is legitimate to challenge someone's math.
> 
> Small counterpoint is that most do not do that assessment up front.  Hindsight is 20/20.  So now that the upfront cost paid to the developer is sunk, the "practical" math now comes down to the MFs.



Zeesh.  (I like that.)  Sure, it's a fair point that timesharing is frequently not the most financially beneficial way to vacation.  I just don't see anything wrong with countering his fair point with another that's just as valid and shared by many, that "money's worth" does not always pertain to the financials math.  That goes for timesharing as well as a whole host of other things in life.

(I think you read sensitivity and indignation into way too many of my posts, Beef, when I don't mean for it to be there.  I'm not a fragile flower, believe me.  None of this hurts my feelings.   )


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## SueDonJ (Jan 17, 2012)

EKniager said:


> LOL, obviously I don't think all timeshare purchases are a waste of money, we own two weeks!  My comments are at the tail end of a longer conversation and I think taken a bit out of context, but... I'll apologize anyway to anyone who was offended by my last comment.



Truthfully, I wasn't offended.  I do, however, feel as strongly about my opinion as you do about yours.

It seems to me that if the statement, "Ya we lost money but we have great memories," causes your jaw to drop every time you hear it, then you must feel very strongly about timeshare purchases not being financially sound unless they happen under a certain set of circumstances that you approve of (such as, the buyer must not be able to vacation in similar fashion for less money.)  I don't think it's wrong that you feel that way; there are many folks who feel exactly the same.

I just wanted to make the point that other folks do not feel the same way, but that does not make them wrong either.  And, your way of thinking does not make my jaw drop.


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## jpc763 (Jan 17, 2012)

Now that my original post has gone off into the weeds  

I own and vacation at Marriott Timeshares because I want to have quality control on my vacation experience.

I have rented off of VRBO and gotten some great looking places but once I showed up, it was a totally different story.  Place was pretty dumpy.  Bed had not been replaced in years, etc.

I do not plan to "sell" (give away) my Marriotts because I love the fact that I am guaranteed 2 fantastic weeks of vacationing a year!

We have owned since 1999 and have traded into 1 brand other than Marriott.  We stayed at the Royal Sands in Cancun.  All other trades have been into other Marriott properties.  EVERY Marriott I have ever traded into has been very well appointed and very well kept.

So it is about quality control for me and my wife.  Nice place or no place.


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## EKniager (Jan 17, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> Truthfully, I wasn't offended.  I do, however, feel as strongly about my opinion as you do about yours.
> 
> It seems to me that if the statement, "Ya we lost money but we have great memories," causes your jaw to drop every time you hear it, then you must feel very strongly about timeshare purchases not being financially sound unless they happen under a certain set of circumstances that you approve of (such as, the buyer must not be able to vacation in similar fashion for less money.)  I don't think it's wrong that you feel that way; there are many folks who feel exactly the same.
> 
> I just wanted to make the point that other folks do not feel the same way, but that does not make them wrong either.  And, your way of thinking does not make my jaw drop.



I think we are "good" and there are no hard feelings on my part.  

Again, I do think you should re-read the thread and follow the logic flow as it begins with MOXJO7282's comment about "getting our monies worth."

Whether investment is the right word or not, I don't know.  That seems to be a word folks are sensitive to.  At the very least it is an economic or financial decision that needs to make sense to me.  

Let's look at it another way.  If I could buy a car for $20K to use one week per year or have the option to rent it for that same period, I would certainly want to compare the two options.  Depending on the up front cost and the maintenance and insurance (= MF) versus the current rental fees and my forecast for future rental fees for the life of the car, I would determine if the economics work better one way than the other.  Maybe it's just me, but $20K is a sum I don't spend on too many items.


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## thinze3 (Jan 17, 2012)

Renting a $2000/wk timeshare would not have been an annual event for me.  Yes, I would have rented a condo every so often, but more times than not I would have ended up in a crowded hotel room at $1000 for 4-5 nights because it was cheaper.  

Marriott (through 2 resale weeks) has provided me and my family with some beautiful forced vacations. Whether it was a week in Florida on the beach or 2 weeks in Hawaii, the quality was always there. Even my kids are spoiled now.  

The consequence of buying one cheap points week from Marriott was a 10 night first class trip to Europe as a second honeymoon. Never would have done that trip because of its cost ($14K-$17K). With the EOY conversion to MR points and the purchase of a few more, we should be all set again buy 2015. Any suggestions?


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## Beefnot (Jan 17, 2012)

thinze3 said:


> The consequence of buying one cheap points week from Marriott was a 10 night first class trip to Europe as a second honeymoon. Never would have done that trip because of its cost ($14K-$17K). With the EOY conversion to MR points and the purchase of a few more, we should be all set again buy 2015. Any suggestions?



Marriott Grand Residences Tahoe from developer.  You'll likely get some fantastic perks that you wouldn't get by buying resale.


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## thinze3 (Jan 17, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> Marriott Grand Residences Tahoe from developer.  You'll likely get some fantastic perks that you wouldn't get by buying resale.



Haha, but by asking "Any suggestions?" I actually mean, "Where should we take our next luxury trip using our MR points?"


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## SueDonJ (Jan 17, 2012)

EKniager said:


> I think we are "good" and there are no hard feelings on my part.
> 
> Again, I do think you should re-read the thread and follow the logic flow as it begins with MOXJO7282's comment about "getting our monies worth."
> 
> ...



No worries, we're good.  I think we differ, though, in how we perceived "monies worth" when it was introduced in this thread - or maybe in how we perceive Joe's use of the term, "monies worth" in this thread?  To me the worth of money doesn't always mean the dollar/investment value of it; it can also mean the intangible values, or the experience, gained through spending it.  Although Joe owns more Weeks, I know from hanging out on TUG that he and I share a similar history with Marriott in that we both bought from the developer when the particular weeks we wanted may not have been available at significantly-discounted prices from other sources, and we both gained usage value from good developer incentives that existed when we bought but don't exist any longer.  So, when I saw him use "monies worth" in his post, I assumed that he was talking about the same intangible value/worth that I feel we got from our "investment" in timeshares, despite the fact that what we purchased in the past could be purchased for far fewer dollars today, and despite the fact that IF what we purchased was available during all these years through rentals (doubt it because they're all high owner-usage intervals) we probably would have paid less if we had rented and didn't buy.  All that to say, that's where you and I veered off onto different courses - where we differ on what "monies worth" might mean.  I think neither of us is wrong, but perhaps I'm using the term incorrectly and/or you would use a different term when trying to explain non-financial value.

I'm like all the others in this thread who are saying that if they hadn't purchased their timeshares they would not have put the same money or the effort into vacationing in a similar fashion.  That's true for me, too.  Don and I wouldn't be traveling on a routine basis to such nice places if we hadn't purchased what we did.

Jpc, now bringing it back around to your thread (sorry!) - I play mind games with the MF due dates by telling myself that they don't deserve enough significance to inspire hate.  Of course it doesn't work (self-delusion rarely does) but nobody ever has to know that.  :hysterical:   "What, MF's are due today?  Gee, I almost forgot, that's how much they don't bother me."


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## EKniager (Jan 17, 2012)

This is similar to the recent "points" sales pitch my wife and I sat through.  The sales rep, like during past "weeks" sales schtick, spelled out a somewhat-true-somewhat-false financial analysis to show us the savings of buying in.  When we questioned the assumptions in their economic model, they told us that we were too analytical and that we shouldn't look at this as a financial decision and that we should focus on all the future vacation memories.  LOL, obviously that plays to a high percentage of their target buying population.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 17, 2012)

EKniager said:


> This is similar to the recent "points" sales pitch my wife and I sat through.  The sales rep, like during past "weeks" sales schtick, spelled out a somewhat-true-somewhat-false financial analysis to show us the savings of buying in.  When we questioned the assumptions in their economic model, they told us that we were too analytical and that we shouldn't look at this as a financial decision and that we should focus on all the future vacation memories.  LOL, obviously that plays to a high percentage of their target buying population.



I'd say that the sales experience you had was better than most reported on TUG, where the reps all tried to pass off the purchase of a timeshare as a solid financial investment vehicle (despite all the legal disclosures in the paperwork which admonish a buyer that a timeshare should not be purchased for any other reason than its usage value, that an assumed financial value is not guaranteed.)  That's where 99.9% of the, "if a salesman's lips are moving he's LYING!" stuff originated!  I'm sort of glad to hear that your sales rep was at least honest about that one aspect of what he was selling - reading TUG you get the impression that there isn't a shred of honesty to be found anymore in the process.


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## Beefnot (Jan 17, 2012)

Vacation ownership is valuable, no question.  True, how someone defines their "money's worth" will vary.  Relatively speaking, however, what is universal is that spending $25,000 for the exact same memories $10,000 could have provided is of less worth.  No one will (or at least should) knowingly spend more than they necessary in order to maximize utility.

But what doubly sucks, and getting back to the original post, is folks who paid sky high developer (or pre-TS crash) prices while watching their MFs increase inordinately since that time.  Yes, the vacation memories are priceless, but it hurts to think of how much money was left on someone else's table to produce those memories.  Alas.  It is human nature to fight the feeling of regret.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 17, 2012)

I've regretted buying a $9,000 sewing machine - "that also embroiders!" - because the sales person lied when he said that it was user-intuitive and it would be a snap to learn all its functions.  The thing was a piece of crap and just like every other item that offers too many functions beyond what's reasonable, it didn't do any of them well and then it up and died long before any of my functional, serviceable, task-specific workhorse machines ever did.

I've regretted buying $250 outfits that say "Dry Clean Only" but when they went to the drycleaners they came back with damages that were the fault of the maker for either using fabrics that don't play nicely with dry cleaning solvents, or for not properly tagging the item with cleaning instructions.

Oh yeah, there was that $9 mascara that I regretted buying in junior high with my paper route money, too, because my sisters always "borrowed" my stuff and I should have known that a $9 mascara would disappear as easily as a $1 mascara would.  (To be fair, I "borrowed" an equal amount of stuff from my sisters - that's why I should have known better.  )

Fortunately, I don't regret the money we spent on our timeshare purchases because the usage we've gotten from them over the years would not have been possible if we didn't buy them at that time.  It's true that the same Weeks are NOW available at discounted prices but they weren't then, and if we waited until now to buy them then how could we have been using them in the interim?  Maybe we could have been renting from other owners, but I doubt that the consecutive Memorial Day holiday multi-weeks would have been as consistently available on the rental market as we were able to reserve them, especially while the resort was in its construction and infancy phases.  Plus I'm certain we simply would not have made the effort.

I actually think there are many people who are happy with their timeshare purchases and have no regrets.  Some of them could be oblivious to the overall financial picture of timeshares, sure.  But I think some of them are like me and learned about the market (here on TUG or somewhere else) before buying anything.  I'm content knowing that at the time we were able to get exactly what we wanted without spending outrageous money that we didn't need to spend, despite knowing that others who were in our same place may have chosen to purchase something else for less money.

I guess I just don't see the point of automatically assigning regret to any large purchase which carries a financial obligation and has lost whatever investment value the owner thought it would have.  It's like the upside/down mortgage holders in this crappy housing market - if you bought your house to be a home and you don't need or intend to sell it, why waste a minute worrying over what it's worth today?  But if you're upside/down and facing foreclosure because you didn't intend to stay in the property longterm and you can no longer afford to pay the spiffy variable-rate mortgage with a balloon payment coming due, then of course you regret the decision to purchase what you did.  With timeshares IMO it was always a mistake to assume a consistent ROI, so regretting a timeshare purchase because the purchase dollars are sunk is a foreign concept.


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## BocaBoy (Jan 17, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> I don't regret the money we spent on our timeshare purchases because the usage we've gotten from them over the years would not have been possible if we didn't buy them at that time.  It's true that the same Weeks are NOW available at discounted prices but they weren't then, and if we waited until now to buy them then how could we have been using them in the interim?  Maybe we could have been renting from other owners, but I doubt that the consecutive Memorial Day holiday multi-weeks would have been as consistently available on the rental market as we were able to reserve them, especially while the resort was in its construction and infancy phases.  Plus I'm certain we simply would not have made the effort.
> 
> I actually think there are many people who are happy with their timeshare purchases and have no regrets.


Very well said.  That applies to us as well.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 17, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> ... But what doubly sucks, and getting back to the original post, is folks who paid sky high developer (or pre-TS crash) prices while watching their MFs increase inordinately since that time. ...



To be fair, the OP never mentioned one word about the purchase price of his timeshare, if it even was a developer purchase, or its declining value.  He definitely talked about the increases in the MF's but not about whatever devaluation his original investment dollars may have suffered.  That slant wasn't introduced in the thread until MoxJo mentioned getting his "monies worth" from his MF's and EKniager told him that "monies worth" couldn't be figured correctly until the purchase price was included in the equation.


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## jimf41 (Jan 17, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> Fortunately, I don't regret the money we spent on our timeshare purchases because the usage we've gotten from them over the years would not have been possible if we didn't buy them at that time.  It's true that the same Weeks are NOW available at discounted prices but they weren't then, and if we waited until now to buy them then how could we have been using them in the interim?  Maybe we could have been renting from other owners, but I doubt that the consecutive Memorial Day holiday multi-weeks would have been as consistently available on the rental market as we were able to reserve them, especially while the resort was in its construction and infancy phases.  Plus I'm certain we simply would not have made the effort.
> 
> I actually think there are many people who are happy with their timeshare purchases and have no regrets.



This applies to us as well.


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## jpc763 (Jan 17, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> To be fair, the OP never mentioned one word about the purchase price of his timeshare, if it even was a developer purchase, or its declining value.  He definitely talked about the increases in the MF's but not about whatever devaluation his original investment dollars may have suffered.  That slant wasn't introduced in the thread until MoxJo mentioned getting his "monies worth" from his MF's and EKniager told him that "monies worth" couldn't be figured correctly until the purchase price was included in the equation.


For my first timeshare Imperial Palms, I bought Marriott resale which was about $14K.  Our second week is a split week at Ko Olina ($18K) and Shadow Ridge ($6K).  We paid developer prices for those.

So yes, our purchase has devalued much like a car.  But since my MF keep going up, I see that they continue to upgrade and keep up the units.  I do appreciate that and understand that I cannot expect the resort to stay 5 star if I don't help pay to keep it 5 star.


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## Beefnot (Jan 17, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> I actually think there are many people who are happy with their timeshare purchases and have no regrets.  Some of them could be oblivious to the overall financial picture of timeshares, sure.  But I think some of them are like me and learned about the market (here on TUG or somewhere else) before buying anything.  I'm content knowing that at the time we were able to get exactly what we wanted *without spending outrageous money that we didn't need to spend*, despite knowing that others who were in our same place may have chosen to purchase something else for less money.




Yep, you got your money's worth.  Good for you


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## dioxide45 (Jan 17, 2012)

Not sure I hate Marriott when I have to pay our MFs. I know that the money goes in to maintaining excellent resorts that we enjoy traveling to. Of course there the MFs are a profit center for Marriott, but that doesn't really bother me as much. Now if we were sinking $2000 a year in to resorts that were in poor shape, then I would be upset. The resorts however are always in top notch shape and units go through regular 5 year refurbishment cycles.


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## BocaBum99 (Jan 17, 2012)

I got rid of my 2 Marriott timeshares.  Their point system turned out to be much worse than I hoped and a robust rental market never materialized.  Too bad.  I have now joined the group of former owners who believe that Marriott sucks.


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## josh1231 (Jan 17, 2012)

BocaBum99 said:


> I got rid of my 2 Marriott timeshares.  Their point system turned out to be much worse than I hoped and a robust rental market never materialized.  Too bad.  I have now joined the group of former owners who believe that Marriott sucks.



Just out of curiosity, how did the point system influence your decision to sell? If you liked the program before the points system, it would seem that you could have simply kept your weeks out of the points system and continued to use them the way you were. I know exchanges have tightened slightly but I did trade for Paris, Marbella and St. Thomas in 2011 with Shadow Ridge Gold.


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## m61376 (Jan 18, 2012)

The sting of paying the MF's won't really happen until I have to pay my cc bill, which fortuitously will be after I return from another wonderful vacation. This time not only will my Mom be coming, but we have accommodations for two close friends (actually, 4- 2 couples), one in an exchange I was lucky enough to secure, still through II, and the other due to the generosity of a fellow Tugger. Somehow I think I'll be even smiling a little when I pay the bill this year  

In general, I belong to the same camp as many of the other posters. Although it sounds like sales-speak, I know that I wouldn't either bother to make the travel plans or would secure less expensive accommodations. One day goes into the next and it is easy to put off vacation plans, and harder to justify the expenditures. I think that's human nature, especially with hectic lifestyles and costs escalating everywhere else. For us, ownership is a lifestyle choice and forces us to periodically get off the merry-goround, so to speak. It's nice to recharge our batteries, and we've had memories along the way that have truly become priceless. We took an extra trip a few years back that we wouldn't have otherwise taken, and we sadly learned that life can have unexpected turns afterwards; although the loss of my Dad was devastating, I will always cherish the memories of him while we were away just the month before. 

Although hopefully not so tragic, I think most of us have memories just as poignant that offsets the "costs." So while today the prices are less than I paid (I bought initially at a time when resale prices were high and then subsequently when a bit lower, but not at today's levels), the money wouldn't give me the warm and fuzzies that I have from our family trips in the interim, so I don't feel I overpaid. I've enjoyed each and every trip, I enjoy the space and the amenities, and while I wish I could pay less for those amenities on an on-going basis, I know that if I want to feel like I am going to a 5 star resort I need to pay for the upkeep.


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## winger (Jan 18, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> ...
> Fortunately, I don't regret the money we spent on our timeshare purchases because the usage we've gotten from them over the years would not have been possible if we didn't buy them at that time.  It's true that the same Weeks are NOW available at discounted prices but they weren't then, *and if we waited until now to buy them then how could we have been using them in the interim? * Maybe we could have been renting from other owners, but I doubt that the consecutive Memorial Day holiday multi-weeks would have been as consistently available on the rental market as we were able to reserve them, especially while the resort was in its construction and infancy phases.  Plus I'm certain we simply would not have made the effort.....



IF we had waited until now (13+ years later) buy our first TS, hmmmm, maybe I would richer $$$, OR poorer (dang stock market), or maybe we would have done alot of camping trips, but for sure, we willl NOT be vacationing weeks each year in very nice location in upscale, roomy, comfortable accomodations.


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## kds4 (Jan 18, 2012)

jimf41 said:


> This applies to us as well.



+1. This is true for us as well.


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## gblotter (Jan 18, 2012)

I just paid my big maintenance fee bill today.  For one of my Maui Ocean Club units, I was able to rent it out for a modest $600 profit above what the maintenance fees cost me.  I look forward to using my other weeks this year.

Whether I rent them out or use them ... no, I don't hate my Marriott timeshares.


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## vacationtime1 (Jan 18, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> Not sure I hate Marriott when I have to pay our MFs. I know that the money goes in to maintaining excellent resorts that we enjoy traveling to. Of course there the MFs are a profit center for Marriott, but that doesn't really bother me as much. Now if we were sinking $2000 a year in to resorts that were in poor shape, then I would be upset. The resorts however are always in top notch shape and units go through regular 5 year refurbishment cycles.



+1.

MF's are not a surprise; they are a necessary evil.  Because they are predictable, they can be budgeted.  I associate paying the MF's with taking a vacation at the resort in question, so it is not unpleasant.  And the maintenance at the two Marriotts I own is top notch.

OTOH, a special assessment would drive me nuts.  That would be unplanned money spent without any incremental benefit.  Like an expensive car repair.


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## BocaBum99 (Jan 18, 2012)

josh1231 said:


> Just out of curiosity, how did the point system influence your decision to sell? If you liked the program before the points system, it would seem that you could have simply kept your weeks out of the points system and continued to use them the way you were. I know exchanges have tightened slightly but I did trade for Paris, Marbella and St. Thomas in 2011 with Shadow Ridge Gold.



I bought to trade up in flexchange.  It worked for several years.  I had 100% payback in 1 year, so I knew it was a good strategy.  I could always dump my  units when the time came.  The time came, so I dumped them.  When the point system was launched, the great exchanges to Hawaii resorts stopped being so plentiful.  I knew that would be the case, so I was not surprise by it.

In addition, I hoped a robust rental market would emerge.  If it did, I would convert my weeks into points and then rent points from other owners.  That didn't happen.  The economics of Marriott's are horrible.  So, I am out.  If I want to go to a Marriott, I'll either exchange into one or rent it.  I cannot find any economic reason to own it other than to flip when the market returns, if it returns.

Marriott totally blew it with their point program.  It really totally sucks.  If they copied any of the existing programs, it would have been better.  They had to go out and create a new one, screw it up and make it worse.  As I said at the outset.  Marriott sucks.


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## OldPantry (Jan 18, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> I've regretted buying a $9,000 sewing machine - "that also embroiders!"  But if you're upside/down and facing foreclosure because you didn't intend to stay in the property longterm and you can no longer afford to pay the spiffy variable-rate mortgage with a balloon payment coming due, then of course you regret the decision to purchase what you did.  With timeshares IMO it was always a mistake to assume a consistent ROI, so regretting a timeshare purchase because the purchase dollars are sunk is a foreign concept.


Hi Sue.
Wow, a $9000 sewing machine?  That must sting.  The timeshare observation, though, has a large whiff of hindsight.  Did you REALLY believe the money was gone the moment you bought the timeshare(s)?  Did you REALLY ignore the rosy future painted by the salesperson, which made future gains in your "deeded real estate" appear inevitable?  If so, I have to assume you'd do it all again right now, forking over those big bucks for beautiful future memories.  Would you really?

While your underwater mortgage point has merit from a no regrets point of view, there is also the entirely likely scenario that you will, in time, emerge above water.  In fact, it's guaranteed, as long a you keep making payments.  Can you realistically say the same about your timeshare?


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## SueDonJ (Jan 18, 2012)

OldPantry said:


> Hi Sue.
> Wow, a $9000 sewing machine?  That must sting.  The timeshare observation, though, has a large whiff of hindsight.  Did you REALLY believe the money was gone the moment you bought the timeshare(s)?  Did you REALLY ignore the rosy future painted by the salesperson, which made future gains in your "deeded real estate" appear inevitable?  If so, I have to assume you'd do it all again right now, forking over those big bucks for beautiful future memories.  Would you really?
> 
> While your underwater mortgage point has merit from a no regrets point of view, there is also the entirely likely scenario that you will, in time, emerge above water.  In fact, it's guaranteed, as long a you keep making payments.  Can you realistically say the same about your timeshare?



The sewing machine particularly stung because it's how I make my living.  Don't get me wrong - we don't have to survive on my living, but in my line of work reputation means everything and that piece of crap machine did nothing to further develop a good reputation!

Honestly, no lie, going in to our first Marriott sales presentation we were armed with a copy of the latest "Timeshare Resales" mag and we had the benefit of timeshare knowledge that I'd learned from reading the disboards, TUG and other sites for a few years.  Of course we couldn't have had any idea of just how much our investment dollars would devalue through the years, but when we bought we did know that there would be devaluation and virtually no chance of making money on the deal.

We luckily met with a sales rep who was knowledgeable and professional, and she didn't try to paint a rosy picture of ownership or financials.  We bought during SW's construction phase and she correctly told us that Marriott would be increasing the prices for the various intervals when the resort build-out was complete.  She had a chart that showed the prices for the different phases and build-out; SW's prices followed that chart as the years went on.  (Although, we understood that they may not have, and watching Crystal Shores' prices a few years later we saw how/why resort development and price predictions might not happen as scheduled.)  So at our sales presentation there was some variation of the old, "prices will only go up from here" sale hook, but it was true because it was the development phase.  She didn't use the hook the way I've seen it reported on TUG, where some folks were told that timeshares appreciate like any other real estate.  We asked about resale value and were told that Marriott isn't responsible for guaranteeing a particular value, and then shown where in the docs that's clearly spelled out.  We asked about the possibility of Marriott taking back our Weeks at some point in the future, we were told that Marriott had a resale program but she couldn't guarantee that they would take our Weeks or how much we'd get if they did.  The whole presentation was like that - we asked, she answered, she raved about her parents taking her and her siblings to Marriott timeshares when she was younger, we raved about how much we loved Hilton Head but didn't want to buy a vacation condo.

I swear, nothing was said in that meeting that has ever given me a reason to regret our purchases.  A year later we asked her to find us a particular Barony week through Marriott Resales and told her we'd be looking at external resales at the same time.  She called with one about six weeks later, the only resale I'd found in that time was about $1500 less.  That was a no-brainer, we bought the Marriott Resale for the added MR-exchange option (and then pretty much made up that difference when we enrolled the 3 direct Weeks in the DC for only $695 instead of $1995.)

Over the years I've posted all this on TUG in bits and pieces where it fit the threads.  I know I have this reputation here of being a Marriott apologist who will never, ever, EVER, NEVER NEVER NEVER! D - yes, that manically!) speak one bad word about Marriott.  That isn't entirely true - I don't like when any Marriott reps misrepresent the product or don't take every opportunity to clear up misrepresentations or misconceptions whenever they occur.  It drives me absolutely batty that Marriott doesn't allow an official TUG rep to participate on TUG, where it would be possible for them to put the product in the best possible light in front of folks who already love timeshares as well as folks who know nothing about them but are searching for info because they may be interested.  It makes me bonkers that Marriott thinks of TUG as a nuisance when so many of us here contribute to make it so much more than that.  But other than that, I will happily admit that I am and expect to remain a very happy Marriott timeshare owner.  We have gotten from our timeshares everything that we were led to expect - both good and bad.  I couldn't ask for more.

As far as buying in the future?  Prior to the DC I'd said many times that if only Marriott would develop a system consisting of a marriage of their resorts with a Points system similar to DVC's that offered flexible stays and banking/borrowing options, I'd be in timeshare heaven.  I enrolled in the DC because it gives my Weeks an option that closely resembles that DVC system.  We haven't at all considered buying any more Weeks because we simply don't have time to use them.  IF we ever get to the point where it might make sense to buy more, I will look closely at Marriott Trust Points.  But I really don't envision that we'll ever be at that point, and if we are, buying Points won't be a slamdunk (the way a Week would have been) because I just don't understand the system well enough to buy in.  I don't feel like it can be fully understood until we see how resale Trust Points are able to be transferred and used.  I guess the answer is, I'm not completely against another direct purchase but I don't know enough about the product to buy now.

Gah, writing another novel ... bet you didn't expect that.     Thanks for the chance, though, to rave about Marriott again.  It's easy for me.


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## OldPantry (Jan 18, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> Honestly, no lie, going in to our first Marriott sales presentation we were armed with a copy of the latest "Timeshare Resales" mag and we had the benefit of timeshare knowledge that I'd learned from reading the disboards, TUG and other sites for a few years.  Of course we couldn't have had any idea of just how much our investment dollars would devalue through the years, but when we bought we did know that there would be devaluation and virtually no chance of making money on the deal.
> 
> I know I have this reputation here of being a Marriott apologist who will never, ever, EVER, NEVER NEVER NEVER! D - yes, that manically!) speak one bad word about Marriott.  That isn't entirely true -



OK, white flag time!  I now believe you went into the deal with eyes wide open.  You were also the lucky beneficiary of a totally honest and candid sales presentation.  And, I assume, you've won the lottery a few times (kidding of course).  I think my experience was for more typical: a presentation that was an artful combination of fact, misdirection and overwhelming detail about points scenarios that are, in retrospect, absolutely laughable.  

If I had recorded the conversation, I'll bet they guy didn't actually "lie"; he just encouraged us to believe things that were, in retrospect, completely unrealistic.  He uttered the words "deeded real estate" at least 30 times; he warned us of the risk of rising (retail) prices, painted rosy pictures of our great-grandchildren frolicking in the tropical sun for nearly free, and actively pooh-poohed the risk of rising maintenance fees ("of course they could go up, but ... ").  It was our fault entirely, for hearing what we wanted to, and deep-sixing our normal skepticism.  I would have (and have) done far better buying cars, but got lured out of my depth by those fabulous lagoons.  All in all, though, I think a little resentment is justified.  

Still, my daughter is at Ko Olina as I write, and having a fabulous time strolling the lagoons.  So ... (insert consoling platitude here).


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## SueDonJ (Jan 18, 2012)

OldPantry said:


> OK, white flag time!  I now believe you went into the deal with eyes wide open.  You were also the lucky beneficiary of a totally honest and candid sales presentation.  And, I assume, you've won the lottery a few times (kidding of course).  I think my experience was for more typical: a presentation that was an artful combination of fact, misdirection and overwhelming detail about points scenarios that are, in retrospect, absolutely laughable.
> 
> If I had recorded the conversation, I'll bet they guy didn't actually "lie"; he just encouraged us to believe things that were, in retrospect, completely unrealistic.  He uttered the words "deeded real estate" at least 30 times; he warned us of the risk of rising (retail) prices, painted rosy pictures of our great-grandchildren frolicking in the tropical sun for nearly free, and actively pooh-poohed the risk of rising maintenance fees ("of course they could go up, but ... ").  It was our fault entirely, for hearing what we wanted to, and deep-sixing our normal skepticism.  I would have (and have) done far better buying cars, but got lured out of my depth by those fabulous lagoons.  All in all, though, I think a little resentment is justified.
> 
> Still, my daughter is at Ko Olina as I write, and having a fabulous time strolling the lagoons.  So ... (insert consoling platitude here).



The type of sales presentation you had?  If ours had started that way we would have walked out and never looked back.  I knew they could happen that way but it's amazing to me that so many of them do go that way.  They're exactly the kind of thing that I'm talking about when I say Marriott doesn't deserve any love when they behave a certain way.  I am glad, though, that you and your family are still enjoying your vacations, that you haven't allowed that crappy experience to color all of your dealings with Marriott.  We have that in common, at least, that we love our Marriott stays.

Now about the lottery ... I don't play it often but back when I worked in a local neighborhood office I'd stop on the way in a couple times a week to a convenience store for a cup of tea and a $5 scratch ticket.  One morning I hit for $500 yay! so at lunch I bought another $5 ticket and stuck it in my pocketbook.  After supper I remembered it was there and scratched it, yay! another $500 winner!  That was the luckiest day of my life (if you're only counting money winnings.)  But I held on to both tickets for about a week and it was the most nerve-wracking week - I thought for sure I'd lose them or somehow damage them or some other stupid thing would happen to make them not give me my winnings.  Really, I don't know how winners of the gigantic lotteries don't lose their minds to paranoia!  :hysterical: :hysterical:


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## OldPantry (Jan 18, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> Sorry, my edit, to clarifiy that I don't have great-grandchildren (or even grandchildren) yet caused a total dupe.  Unintentional.


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## m61376 (Jan 18, 2012)

It is interesting how divergent the pictures different salespeople paint can be. Our experience, also at Ko'Olina, was similar to OldPantry's. We received a detailed explanation how we would break even in costs in 10-20 years and then basically have free vacations. It was clearly a monetary driven presentation, replete with real estate appreciation and the like. We were shown online all the properties we could easily trade our studio unit for, insinuating the trades were available practically just for the asking. He constantly touted the thousands of dollars we'd be saving in the long run.

Looking back even a month afterwards- after a crash course in Timeshare 101 from Tug- I could see that most of what the salesman said on the face was kinda true, except that what he left out clearly changed the picture. Ultimately, the only fiscally based analysis which made any dollars and cents sense to us was to buy resale, which we ultimately chose to do.

In reality, the only really truthful part of his presentation, which is often mocked here on Tug, is that ownership forces one to take vacations and that time spent with family and friends does create priceless memories. It sounded kitchy when he said it, but that is the one part of his presentation that really does ring true.


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## EKniager (Jan 19, 2012)

Although I believe each sales rep has their own unique "style" and ethical line in the sand, my life experiences would cause me to believe that the buyers, i.e., us, listen and hear more differently than the disparity among sales pitches.  (Heck, just read the response to comments on TUG threads and you can see that everyone interprets the same words differently!)  Remember, they all get trained from the the same template and they are sensitive to breaking laws and getting sued.  Plus, if you are really unhappy and have a bad experience you are not referring friends, a key lead generator for them.

My wife and I spent 3+ hours with the rep before buying.  We had lots of questions and did lots of calculations.  Sure we got the cost-is-lower-than-staying-at-hotels-over-your-lifetime pitch and my wife is still convinced that that is true.  However, we never for a moment thought MFs would remain flat or that we could exchange and go to any other resort on the week we wanted every year.  (Although, owning an Aruba platinum week has worked out well in that regard.  The small locked off bedroom has, knock on wood, traded into larger units everytime so far!)  

And two things we thought were an absolute crock, okay, let me soften that, were of no value to us were:
+ the trading-for-Marriott-points option, and 
+ the lifetime of memories.  

With regard to the first point, the economics never made sense!  Why would we pay $1,000 in MF only to trade them for $500-600 worth of points?  And, wrt to the latter point, we were taking nice vacations every year and planned to continue doing so.  We made our own memories at nice hotels, resorts, or condos.  TS wouldn't add anything there other than to possibly steer us to go to locations that might not have come up on our radar right away.  Don't get me wrong, we have nice TS vacation memories, but lots of non-TS memories as well.

It had to come down to economics and the belief that hotel costs (and condo rentals) would continue to escalate over the next 20 years.  Ever check the cost of a room at the Marriott in Aruba for a night in February?  Certainly the math is better with lower resale pricing, but we were still TS novices and not aware of the secondary markets.  The KEY variable for us, and not having kids to vacation with, that made the TS work was... the LOCKOFF feature.  It allowed us to spread the costs over two weeks.

I am not defending the sales reps, just saying that I think it is the buyers responsibility to understand what they are paying for.


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## josh1231 (Jan 20, 2012)

I would agree that Hawaii resorts are not as plentiful, however given a wide enough window they're still not too difficult to get. This being said, it's difficult to really to determine how much the recovering economy is contributing to the lack of trades.

I have never owned a non-marriott timeshare, however if it is as easy trading into a Marriott as it is with a Mariott, then that sounds like a good plan.

I'm not holding my breath on a recovery of the timeshare market. In 2000, the average Marriott hotel rented for $149 per night, in 2010 it was $156, or a gain of 4.5% over 10 years. Maintenance fee's have went up at most resorts by over 4.5% per year, reducing the value of timeshares each and every year. 

Until Marriott becomes realistic with maintenance fee's, a recovery will not happen. In spite of all this, I'm still loving my Marriott.



BocaBum99 said:


> I bought to trade up in flexchange.  It worked for several years.  I had 100% payback in 1 year, so I knew it was a good strategy.  I could always dump my  units when the time came.  The time came, so I dumped them.  When the point system was launched, the great exchanges to Hawaii resorts stopped being so plentiful.  I knew that would be the case, so I was not surprise by it.
> 
> In addition, I hoped a robust rental market would emerge.  If it did, I would convert my weeks into points and then rent points from other owners.  That didn't happen.  The economics of Marriott's are horrible.  So, I am out.  If I want to go to a Marriott, I'll either exchange into one or rent it.  I cannot find any economic reason to own it other than to flip when the market returns, if it returns.
> 
> Marriott totally blew it with their point program.  It really totally sucks.  If they copied any of the existing programs, it would have been better.  They had to go out and create a new one, screw it up and make it worse.  As I said at the outset.  Marriott sucks.


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## m61376 (Jan 20, 2012)

josh1231 said:


> I'm not holding my breath on a recovery of the timeshare market. In 2000, the average Marriott hotel rented for $149 per night, in 2010 it was $156, or a gain of 4.5% over 10 years. Maintenance fee's have went up at most resorts by over 4.5% per year, reducing the value of timeshares each and every year.
> 
> Until Marriott becomes realistic with maintenance fee's, a recovery will not happen. In spite of all this, I'm still loving my Marriott.



That's certainly an interesting statistic. However, I'm not sure if comparing the average hotel rental rate across the board really gives a true picture. I'd be interested in the rental rate comparisons for key locations, where Marriott has also chosen to place their timeshare properties. In the last decade there have been many new Marriotts, including their lower priced lines (Residence Inn, Courtyard, etc.). What would be the real comparison is what the rate increases have been for JW's adjacent to timeshare properties.

IF there was such a small increase in the rental rates at comparable locations at the adjacent resorts, then this certainly would be food for thought.


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## m61376 (Jan 20, 2012)

EKniager said:


> I am not defending the sales reps, just saying that I think it is the buyers responsibility to understand what they are paying for.



Absolutely, but I do think that at least some of the reps (and thankfully not all, since Sue and others have had some very positive interactions) paint an overly rosy picture and it is easy for the novice buyer to take what they've been told at face value, especially when on the high of being on vacation.

Being the consummate shopper I didn't take the bait and found Tug before making any purchase, but I have to admit the salesman had my head spinning and was very, very tempting. While he didn't literally say you could trade into any resort any time of the year, he certainly proffered a somewhat skewed portrait of the trading process, going into his own II account and showing me all the weeks coming up that his lock-off could trade into, emphasizing that this was just what was available in the next few months and that there was so much more that he wasn't showing me. Not understanding the machinations of II, all those Flexchange exchanges really were impressive; the implication was that this was what trading was like and it was easy like that for any date you wanted to travel. So while ultimately it is the buyer's responsibility to check things out, at least some of the salespeople make it very easy to walk away with a skewed picture. Most people aren't like people on this board, and don't ask as many questions.


EKniager said:


> And two things we thought were an absolute crock, okay, let me soften that, were of no value to us were:
> + the trading-for-Marriott-points option, and
> + the lifetime of memories.


I agree with the former, but I have to say that I do think that the latter point simply isn't "sales-speak." We, too, have had lots of non-timeshare vacation memories. But I do think that timeshares help create a lifetime of memories. For many, it is an impetus to schedule a vacation and not find something else to do with the money, or not bother planning, or not taking time off, or one of any hundred of other excuses not to go away. Personally, while the kids were growing up and we had a school schedule to contend with, we almost had certain set times that we made sure to go away- President's week and the week before Labor Day were typically vacation times for many years. When the kids entered college things changed and we didn't have the set schedule and vacation planning took a back burner (and I was nervous to fly after 9/11, which became an easy excuse not to bother).

Anyway, I really do think ownership helps create enhanced vacation memories. Not only does it provide the impetus to actually take  vacation, but looking around during our trips I think it creates different types of vacations. While my kids were growing up I was fortunate to have two active and healthy parents, and they travelled all over with us, so extended family vacations were the norm for us. However, rarely did I see that while away and almost never within my circle of friends; in contrast, on any timeshare vacation I've gone on I've seen many extended families. Timeshares are more conducive to family and extended family vacations. Also, ownership has allowed me to invite friends along and share vacation time with people I care about. Many others here have also posted how nice it was to be able to extend invitations to family and friends who otherwise wouldn't have joined us, whether for financial or other reasons. I may be naive, but I truly think that sharing vacations with family and friends does help create a lifetime of memories that would otherwise likely not be enjoyed.


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## josh1231 (Jan 24, 2012)

Comparing rates across the board does give a true picture, what you are wanting is a look into certain markets that you consider key.

I don't know if there are any hard statistics showing what you're looking for. That being said, I have been traveling consistently during those 10 years and can personally vouch for the fact that hotel prices have been very flat in most of the Marriott timeshare markets, compared with maintenance fees that have been anything but flat, thus partly leading to the depressed prices the timeshares are experiencing. With the probable reduced trading power of weeks moving forward, as well as the large fee to sell points, I wouldn't bet on a recovery in timeshare prices.

That being said, if you are correctly looking at your timeshare not as an "investment", and instead comparing the numbers based upon the amount you would have paid for similar vacations, a Marriott can still be a great purchase.

I have paid $2500 in the last 2 years for 7 nights in Paris, 7 nights in Marbella, 7 nights in St. Thomas and 7 nights in las vegas (getaway), and have a 1-bedroom left. 

In spite of rising maintenance fees, like the OP, I still love my timeshare.




m61376 said:


> That's certainly an interesting statistic. However, I'm not sure if comparing the average hotel rental rate across the board really gives a true picture. I'd be interested in the rental rate comparisons for key locations, where Marriott has also chosen to place their timeshare properties. In the last decade there have been many new Marriotts, including their lower priced lines (Residence Inn, Courtyard, etc.). What would be the real comparison is what the rate increases have been for JW's adjacent to timeshare properties.
> 
> IF there was such a small increase in the rental rates at comparable locations at the adjacent resorts, then this certainly would be food for thought.


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