# Coast Guard Searching for Helicopter Tour off Kauai Coast



## BDMX2 (Dec 27, 2019)

Scary, sad news this morning: https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/...issing-chopper-off-kauai-with-people-onboard/


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## slip (Dec 27, 2019)

I just saw this now when I got up for work.


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## clifffaith (Dec 27, 2019)

I saw this on the news this morning. Took me a minute to realize that the helicopter disappeared yesterday so that if there is any floating debris with survivors clinging to it they've been in the water over night. Doesn't look good.


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## BDMX2 (Dec 27, 2019)

clifffaith said:


> I saw this on the news this morning. Took me a minute to realize that the helicopter disappeared yesterday so that if there is any floating debris with survivors clinging to it they've been in the water over night. Doesn't look good.



Yeah, I'm trying to be hopeful and optimistic for a miraculous outcome, but it sure doesn't look terribly promising as time passes.


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## slip (Dec 27, 2019)

Sounds like they found the wreck.

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/...issing-chopper-off-kauai-with-people-onboard/


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## MOXJO7282 (Dec 27, 2019)

so sad they found the wreakage.


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## BDMX2 (Dec 27, 2019)

Sad update, thanks for posting the link @slip


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## tompalm (Dec 27, 2019)

BDMX2 said:


> Scary, sad news this morning: https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/...issing-chopper-off-kauai-with-people-onboard/



Here is the latest posted below. But the bottom line is, if the weather is bad, don’t go. It is still to early to say what happened. But most of the time in accidents like this, it is a result of aircraft flying low level through the clouds and hitting a mountain. It happens about once a year in Hawaii. Pilots think they know where they are, but with strong wind, the aircraft is pushed off course and they impact land.  Hopefully I am wrong, but I would never go up on days with bad weather.

from the link above
Petty Officer 1st Class Robert Cox, of Coast Guard Joint Rescue Command Center Honolulu, said weather conditions in the search area were “challenging" with low visibility and blustery winds.
————

Wreckage of tour helicopter carrying 7 found in Hawaii


Two of those aboard the helicopter are believed to be minors.


Wreckage from a missing tour helicopter carrying seven passengers has been found, police on the Hawaiian island of Kauai said Friday afternoon.


The wreckage was located in Kokee, near Nualolo, about 9:30 a.m., said Battalion Chief Solomon Kanoho of the Kauai County Fire Department. The remote area is along the north coast of the island.


"Our ground and air crews continue to search for survivors," he said. "We still hold up hope."


He said the passengers were connected to "two different sets of family members."


The U.S. Coast Guard had been searching Friday for the "overdue" tour helicopter carrying seven people, two believed to be minors, that went missing Thursday night off the coast of Hawaii.


The helicopter, which was touring Kauai's Napali Coast, had been due back at 5:21 p.m. Thursday.


Kanoho said 25-knot winds were blowing before the crash, but the cause of the crash was unknown. The National Transportation Safety Board was sending three investigators.


Gov. David Ige offered to deploy state resources for the search effort, and Kauai Mayor Derek S.K. Kawakami said in a statement that "we are doing everything we can at this time."


Kauai is an island west of Oahu, which is where Honolulu is located.


The aircraft was equipped with an electronic locator, but no signals had been received, according to the Coast Guard.


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## Carol C (Dec 27, 2019)

I've been to Kauai twice and was keen on the helicopter tour...but the last visit the weather was so bad we were socked in for most of the week. The tour company knew we wanted so badly to go, but they were erring on the side of caution. Toward the end of our timeshare week, the bad weather broke and we got on our copter tour and enjoyed it. I would never go during bad weather, only crystal clear conditions...and I think the tour companies are also cautious (but tourists can be very demanding, and $ could be offered as an extra "incentive" to go even in less than desirable flight conditions.) It's really too bad, this recent accident...so tragic, for all parties.


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## slip (Dec 27, 2019)

I just read that 6 of the 7’s remains were found.


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## Passepartout (Dec 27, 2019)

Far too early to assign blame. Accidents happen. This company has a flawless 30 year safety record and the pilot was highly experienced. May all the victims families find peace. R.I.P.


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## tompalm (Dec 27, 2019)

*Congressman calls for stricter regulations on tour helicopters amid third fatal crash this year    *
TOP STORIES
by: Jenn Boneza
Posted: Dec 27, 2019 / 05:39 PM HST        / Updated: Dec 27, 2019 / 06:16 PM HST


HONOLULU(KHON2)–Tour helicopters and small aircraft operations are downright dangerous according to Congressman Ed Case. He said the lack of regulation in the industry is causing deaths that could be prevented after the latest fatal crash on Kauai.
“The bottom line is tour helicopters and small aircraft are not safe,” Case said after the wreckage of the helicopter missing since Thursday evening was found in Koke’e on Kauai.
It’s the third fatal crash in Hawaii this year. 
Case said enough is enough.
“I’m angry about it because we just lost more lives.”
On April 29th, a tour helicopter crashed in a busy residential Kailua neighborhood killing the three passengers.
June 21st a skydiving plane went down in Mokuleia killing all 11 onboard.
There were seven people onboard the Safari Helicopter in Kauai that crashed Thursday.
“For us to just sit here and chalk these seven lives up to lives lost, 21 lives lost in Hawaii this year alone, and not think that something is dreadfully wrong–that’s just putting your head in the sand,” Case said.
Case introduced his Safe and Quiet Skies Act (HR 4547) in September in an effort to make the tour helicopter and small aircraft industry safer through stiffer regulation.
One of the things he is pushing for is the ‘sterile cockpit rule’, which requires pilots to focus only on flying.
Case said they should not be guiding a tour in the sky or operating video cameras while flying.
“I don’t think any pilot should be doing anything other than piloting the aircraft and assuring safety.”
And that’s just one concern of many according to Case. Another issue is the flight path of many tours.
“We have thousands of flights every year over hundreds of thousands of households throghout Hawaii by tour helicoters. They fly directly over our residential communities. Any one of those helicopters could drop out of the sky,” Case explained.
That is exactly what happened in the Kailua crash in April. The Robinson R-44 tour helicopter crashed on Oneawa Street, narrowly missing homes. Had the aircraft crashed just 30 minutes earlier it would have likely fallen on morning commuters in traffic trying to get to work or school.
“Nobody has the right to operate public airspace in a way that jeapardizes the folks on those flights and the folks on the ground.”
Case said his legislation is necessary to force the industry to shape up.
“I have absolutely no faith in this industry’s ability to recognize the real problem that they have created…They’ve shown no good faith effort whatsoever recognizing the problem or doing anything about it,” Case said.

In a statement the FAA said:
“Safety is the FAA’s top priority. The agency conducts random and regular surveillance on all Hawaii air tour operators, and ensures companies address any issues they may find. The FAA has not identified issues of concern that are applicable to the industry statewide. The FAA’s air tour regulations include requirements that are specific to Hawaii operations.  Please see Appendix A of this link: https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=8a05d92e27d189ba3bb7032d21a42302&mc=true&node=pt14.3.136&rgn=div5


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## tompalm (Dec 27, 2019)

FAA statement is sad. They don’t do anything until a major accident has occurred.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 29, 2019)

The FAA could elect to regulate smaller commercial operations to the same safety standards as a regular Part 121 airline, but then that segment of commercial aviation would likely be regulated out of existence. The three accidents the congressman references above will likely prove to have three separate and unrelated causes. While safety is the FAA’s top priority, they do have a statutory requirement to consider the economic impact of any regulations they promulgate.


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## tompalm (Dec 29, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> The FAA could elect to regulate smaller commercial operations to the same safety standards as a regular Part 121 airline, but then that segment of commercial aviation would likely be regulated out of existence. The three accidents the congressman references above will likely prove to have three separate and unrelated causes. While safety is the FAA’s top priority, they do have a statutory requirement to consider the economic impact of any regulations they promulgate.


They could be doing more, like pretending to be a passenger and going on flights when the weather is bad. Once they violate a couple pilots, the word will get out and pilots will follow the VFR rules.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 29, 2019)

tompalm said:


> They could be doing more, like pretending to be a passenger and going on flights when the weather is bad. Once they violate a couple pilots, the word will get out and pilots will follow the VFR rules.



I like that “secret shopper” idea, but the practical issue, particularly in a more remote location like Hawaii, would be protecting the identity of the FAA inspector. There are only so many qualified individuals in any locale, and it might not take that long for their identities to become known to local operators.


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## lifesabeach101 (Dec 29, 2019)

Carol C said:


> I've been to Kauai twice and was keen on the helicopter tour...but the last visit the weather was so bad we were socked in for most of the week. The tour company knew we wanted so badly to go, but they were erring on the side of caution. Toward the end of our timeshare week, the bad weather broke and we got on our copter tour and enjoyed it. I would never go during bad weather, only crystal clear conditions...and I think the tour companies are also cautious (but tourists can be very demanding, and $ could be offered as an extra "incentive" to go even in less than desirable flight conditions.) It's really too bad, this recent accident...so tragic, for all parties.


we went on a pontoon boat from Maui to Lanai and the weather got so bad it was scary.  all the people below deck were throwing up.  I located the lifejackets and stayed next to them just on case.  it was scarier staying above deck but I felt safer then below.

The  boat ended up turning around and going back to Maui.

The weather can turn very quickly.

The poor prople probally ran into some very bad weather on the helicopter.


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## NTP66 (Dec 30, 2019)

My wife and I went on a West Maui/Molokai helicopter tour back in 2011, I believe. Loved every part of it, especially flying over Molokai and seeing the bottom just drop out from under you. The following year, a different company doing the same tour - one which my friend was actually supposed to be on but backed out at the last minute - crashed, killing all on board. I wouldn't do another helicopter tour ever again, personally.


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## tompalm (Dec 30, 2019)

*Cause of Kauai helicopter crash still uncertain*
The cause of last Thursday's deadly helicopter crash on Kauai has yet to be determined. 
Monday, December 30th 2019, 5:35 PM HST by KITV Web Staff
The cause of last Thursday's deadly helicopter crash on Kauai has yet to be determined. 

Local pilot and aviation lawyer Richard Fried believes the training guidelines for helicopter pilots are not the issue.

"They have to have an initial ground training, they have to have a certified pilot, they actually have to fly over the specific area they’re going to fly," said Fried.

He also cites a Federal Aviation Administration document outlining specific guidelines for tour helicopter pilots in Hawaii. 


"Every island has very specific rules which these guys are supposed to follow," he explained. 

"People say [companies] are running around without guidance or control. That’s not accurate. The rules are there and if they’re followed there would be a significantly, in my view, less likelihood of crashes happening," Fried added.

Fried claims he's represented almost 50 victims of aircraft crashes in Hawaii in the past 50 years, including some on Kauai.

"I’ve had well over 6 helicopter crash cases involving this specific area. Almost all pilot error," Fried said.


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## tompalm (Dec 31, 2019)

Hawaii helicopter crash: Here are questions consumers should ask before booking a tour


7:00 pm EST Dec. 30, 2019


A tour helicopter that crashed in Hawaii last week may have been doomed by rugged terrain and rapidly changing weather conditions, a pilot and aviation attorney said.


The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating Thursday's crash, in a remote part of the island of Kauai. The pilot and six passengers were killed and recovery efforts have been suspended.


Ladd Sanger, a helicopter pilot and attorney who's worked on previous crashes of tour helicopters, said the area can pose challenges for even the most seasoned pilots.


"The topography is amazing," he said. "Really, the only way for a person to see it is from an airplane or a helicopter."


Though the scenery is breathtaking, viewing it comes at a risk. Sanger, who's flown the same tour of Kauai's Na Pali Coast State Wilderness Park, said the ruggedness of the terrain makes it all but impossible to make an emergency landing. 


"There is not a level surface that isn’t covered with vegetation," he said. 


Hawaii helicopter crash:   Police confirm pilot, six passengers died


He added that the weather conditions are all but impossible to know before taking off, and pilots may encounter unexpected clouds or winds. Making matters worse, conditions can change rapidly in just a few miles or in a difference of a few thousand feet of elevation.


"These clouds can form in no time at all," he said. "You don’t know that from the airport."


Sanger said that tour operators and pilots should have more discretion to cancel when the conditions aren't favorable. And if customers don't feel comfortable flying, they should voice their concerns to the tour operator.


"Consumers have a vote in this, too," he said. "Speak up. Say, 'I don’t want to continue.' "


The question you should ask before you fly


Sanger said customers should ask whether the company operates a single-engine or dual-engine helicopter. A dual-engine helicopter is better in an emergency, he said, since one can operate if the other fails. 


He added that if it's cloudy and windy, that might be a sign that it isn't safe to go.


Besides, he said, poor weather conditions can make tours less enjoyable.


"You want a smooth ride and you want to be able to see things," Sanger said. "For the customer, why even take the chance?


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## JIMinNC (Dec 31, 2019)

For what it's worth, I think it's important to point out that in both of the articles just above, the two experts - Fried and Sanger - are both aviation attorneys. Most of these folks make their living by suing aircraft manufacturers, aircraft operators, aircraft maintenance shops, and aircraft parts suppliers - whomever is deemed to have the deepest pockets - after accidents like the one on Kauai. So their commentary should be looked at in that context.

As an aviation-oriented journalist myself, after any high-profile accident, my inbox is peppered with emails from PR firms offering up their aviation attorney clients as "experts" to comment on the accident. Commenting as experts in news articles is one major way these guys build their brands and promote their litigation businesses. I'm not saying that makes their comments invalid, but I do think their comments should be read in the context of their role in the tort side of these accidents. Their focus is often more about "who to blame" than "what is the root cause."


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## Kapolei (Dec 31, 2019)

News report out today says pilot not instrument rated.

I am afraid that the NTSB will have one sentence that sums up the cause of the crash.  This will not be the first time this has happened.  Standards will need to be changed for tourist flights.  I will not go up in one of these.


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## klpca (Dec 31, 2019)

With respect to the topography and the visibility issues, we have hiked pretty extensively in Koke'e State Park, near the location of the crash. Especially along the coast, you can have amazing views one moment, and in just a few minutes see nothing but clouds. It happens surprisingly fast. I have videos where you just watch everything disappear. What a terrible tragedy to be flying in a helicopter when that happened.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 31, 2019)

Kapolei said:


> News report out today says pilot not instrument rated.
> 
> I am afraid that the NTSB will have one sentence that sums up the cause of the crash.  This will not be the first time this has happened.  Standards will need to be changed for tourist flights.  I will not go up in one of these.



Frankly, an instrument rating would be of little help for tour operations like these as they all must operate in Visual Flight Rules (VFR). Even if an instrument rated pilot was flying the helicopter and accidentally entered Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) - aka clouds - in the areas along the Napili coast you are operating so close to the terrain that operating under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) would be virtually impossible for even a skilled instrument rated pilot. In this type of operation, the ONLY safe course is to remain VFR at all times since the terrain is so close. I suspect that an instrument rated pilot would likely not have made much of a difference if the ultimate cause is proven to be VFR flight into IMC conditions and subsequent impact with terrain.

I will also point out that thousands of these air tour flights happen safely every year. I don't let fear of an automobile crash cause me to opt not to drive, so the low probability of a helicopter accident will not deter me from doing these tours in the future.


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## Kapolei (Dec 31, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Frankly, an instrument rating would be of little help for tour operations like these as they all must operate in Visual Flight Rules (VFR). Even if an instrument rated pilot was flying the helicopter and accidentally entered Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) - aka clouds - in the areas along the Napili coast you are operating so close to the terrain that operating under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) would be virtually impossible for even a skilled instrument rated pilot. In this type of operation, the ONLY safe course is to remain VFR at all times since the terrain is so close. I suspect that an instrument rated pilot would likely not have made much of a difference if the ultimate cause is proven to be VFR flight into IMC conditions and subsequent impact with terrain.
> 
> I will also point out that thousands of these air tour flights happen safely every year. I don't let fear of an automobile crash cause me to opt not to drive, so the low probability of a helicopter accident will not deter me from doing these tours in the future.



A local hiker in the area reported the sound of hovering, then impact.  I am not a helicopter pilot, but I suspect disorientation combined with a lack of lift due to weather conditions.  The bird was fully loaded.

Low probability of accident is found in commercial airliners.  Too many people die in general aviation and in these tourist flights for me to call it low probability.  But probability is a relative term.


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## JIMinNC (Dec 31, 2019)

Kapolei said:


> Low probability of accident is found in commercial airliners.  Too many people die in general aviation and in these tourist flights for me to call it low probability.  But probability is a relative term.



Probability is indeed a relative term. Commercial airlines certainly have very low (almost zero) accident probability, and general aviation certainly is not as good. The aircraft are not as sophisticated with the same level of redundancy, and in much of general aviation the pilots are not as experienced (plus airlines have two pilots on board and much of general aviation only one). Helicopters are also higher risk than fixed wing, but in any of these, the likelihood of dying in any aviation accident is still very small. According to the AOPA Air Safety Foundation, for the most recent year that final statistics are available (2016), there were 195 fatal general aviation accidents over almost 25 million flight hours. So, just because the risk is greater than something that has almost no risk doesn't mean it should be classified as "high" risk.

When I was researching that statistic above, I came across the following quote, which I think is relevant to this discussion:

"All life is the management of risk, not its elimination." -- Walter Wriston, former Chairman of Citibank


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## tompalm (Dec 31, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Frankly, an instrument rating would be of little help for tour operations like these as they all must operate in Visual Flight Rules (VFR). Even if an instrument rated pilot was flying the helicopter and accidentally entered Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) - aka clouds - in the areas along the Napili coast you are operating so close to the terrain that operating under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) would be virtually impossible for even a skilled instrument rated pilot. In this type of operation, the ONLY safe course is to remain VFR at all times since the terrain is so close. I suspect that an instrument rated pilot would likely not have made much of a difference if the ultimate cause is proven to be VFR flight into IMC conditions and subsequent impact with terrain.
> 
> I will also point out that thousands of these air tour flights happen safely every year. I don't let fear of an automobile crash cause me to opt not to drive, so the low probability of a helicopter accident will not deter me from doing these tours in the future.


Well said. I was going to post the newspaper article this morning, but agree that the article was not exactly correct and having an instrument rating would not matter.  The problem is, pilots fly through clouds everyday and get used to popping in one side and out the other a few seconds later.  When the cloud is larger than normal, it might take a couple minutes to get to a clear area on the other side.  By that time, the wind blows the aircraft off course and hitting a mountain is highly possible.  

The news just reported the helicopter impacted the mountain at the top of the ridge and slid down after that.  From all accounts, it appears it was moving forward very fast in transit at the time of impact.  It is the same thing that has happened many times before and will happen again until changes are made.


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## tompalm (Dec 31, 2019)

A Kauai tour helicopter that crashed and killed all seven people on board hit a ridge at an altitude of 2,900 feet then fell about 100 feet, the National Transportation Safety Board said today as investigators planned how to recover the wreckage from the remote and rugged crash site.

“A post-crash fire consumed much of the aircraft,” the NTSB said in an investigative update. “In the coming days the wreckage will be moved to a secure location where investigators will conduct a more thorough examination of the recovered evidence. Details and timing are still being worked out.”

The helicopter’s commercial pilot and six passengers were killed in Thursday’s crash. It was set to tour the Na Pali Coast, the picturesque and remote northern shoreline of Kauai that was featured in the film “Jurassic Park.”

The pilot, Paul Matero, did not have an instrument rating, which allows pilots to fly in bad weather, according to the Federal Aviation Administration.

“Most of the pilots that fly tour helicopters in Hawaii either don’t have an instrument rating or their instrument rating isn’t current,”said Ladd Sanger, a Texas-based aviation attorney and helicopter pilot who has handled Hawaii crash cases. “When you have dynamic weather conditions, where you have clouds and winds, it might be more prudent not to fly in those conditions.”

National Weather Service meteorologists said the agency was not releasing information on Thursday’s weather conditions on Kauai. Weather service reports from Thursday said late in the afternoon high pressure far northwest of the state would cause winds across Kauai to shift out of the northwest.

A team of investigators who arrived on Kauai will be looking at weather conditions, NTSB spokesman Eric Weiss said.


Investigator-In-Charge Brice Banning, from Alaska, flew over the crash site Monday to evaluate conditions and photograph the wreckage path, the NTSB update said.

The helicopter company, identified as Safari Helicopters, contacted the Coast Guard on Thursday evening after the tour did not return to the airport as scheduled. A search began but steep terrain, low visibility, choppy seas and rain complicated the search.

Company representatives didn’t immediately return phone and email messages Tuesday.


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## Kapolei (Dec 31, 2019)

tompalm said:


> The news just reported the helicopter impacted the mountain at the top of the ridge and slid down after that.  From all accounts, it appears it was moving forward very fast in transit at the time of impact.  It is the same thing that has happened many times before and will happen again until changes are made.



I don’t know what technology is in that helicopter or most helicopters... but it seems to me a simple screen with gps navigation would tell you that there is a mountain in front of you





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## JIMinNC (Jan 1, 2020)

Kapolei said:


> I don’t know what technology is in that helicopter or most helicopters... but it seems to me a simple screen with gps navigation would tell you that there is a mountain in front of you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When you are operating in as close proximity to mountainsides and terrain as tour helicopters do, you must use your eyes not your instruments. In that environment, the pilot must maintain visual contact with the terrain at all times. Eyes should be outside the cockpit, period. It’s likely the helicopter did have a GPS on board, but as close as those ridges are, avoiding terrain by instruments would be problematic at best.


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## Kapolei (Jan 1, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> When you are operating in as close proximity to mountainsides and terrain as tour helicopters do, you must use your eyes not your instruments. In that environment, the pilot must maintain visual contact with the terrain at all times. Eyes should be outside the cockpit, period. It’s likely the helicopter did have a GPS on board, but as close as those ridges are, avoiding terrain by instruments would be problematic at best.



Obviously this pilot lost contact with the terrain. It is reasonable to conclude that he did not intentionally get himself into that situation.

Tour helicopters in Hawaii should be required to have GPS terrain avoidance like the one that I linked to.  They should also be required to have a pilot and a co-pilot that are instrument rated.  These continued deaths are unacceptable.  Some in the aviation world might understand the risks, but these people that are enjoying their vacation don’t.  It has happened way too many times.  And I don’t care if it doubles the price of the tours.  There is a bunch of teenagers that would be mid-life now with families if they didn’t collide with a wall in Iao Valley some years back.  And there are many other stories.

note:  I believe there is a huge difference between risks people are willing to take on their own versus that which is offered to the public.  These are public endeavors that need to be well regulated and improved over time.


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## tompalm (Jan 1, 2020)

I agree that the helicopters have GPS but they are not reliable. Because the aircraft is too close to the mountains the signal is blocked or delayed. In 1999 an Air Ambulance flight crashed into the mountains while descending through the clouds for landing at Hilo. He was using his GPS and thought he was clear of terrain. But during descent  through the clouds, the wind pushed him closer to the mountain and he crashed into the mountain.

The GPWS or the proximity warning systems that commercial aircraft have are designed to provide signals anytime the aircraft gets close to train. But helicopters are always close to the train, so therefore the GPWS would be going off all the time and not be reliable either.

The only thing that helicopters can do when they see clouds in the mountains is remain over the ocean and fly along the beach until they return back to the airport.


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## Kapolei (Jan 1, 2020)

tompalm said:


> The only thing that helicopters can do when they see clouds in the mountains is remain over the ocean and fly along the beach until they return back to the airport.



I quick look at a map of the Island shows that remaining over the ocean could add a significant distance to return to the heliport.  Which leads me to question how much range is left on the helicopters at the end of the tours.  Is circling the Island to the south even a viable option if the mountains and the north are clouded over?  There could be a reluctance to want take it to the beach (if you find a suitable one) due to fuel issues.  I am sure local helicopter pilots know the answers here.  I have no doubt the NTSB will identify these additional issues if they are relevant.


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## JIMinNC (Jan 1, 2020)

Kapolei said:


> Obviously this pilot lost contact with the terrain. It is reasonable to conclude that he did not intentionally get himself into that situation.
> 
> Tour helicopters in Hawaii should be required to have GPS terrain avoidance like the one that I linked to.  They should also be required to have a pilot and a co-pilot that are instrument rated.  These continued deaths are unacceptable.  Some in the aviation world might understand the risks, but these people that are enjoying their vacation don’t.  It has happened way too many times.  And I don’t care if it doubles the price of the tours.  There is a bunch of teenagers that would be mid-life now with families if they didn’t collide with a wall in Iao Valley some years back.  And there are many other stories.
> 
> note:  I believe there is a huge difference between risks people are willing to take on their own versus that which is offered to the public.  These are public endeavors that need to be well regulated and improved over time.



As @tompalm said, the terrain warning features of GPS or GPWS are useless because the aircraft are operating constantly in close proximity to the ground. As he and I also pointed out above, requiring an instrument rating is pointless since these tour flights are not operating in IFR controlled airspace or on IFR flight plans. IFR flight requires clearances for specific point-to-point routes from air traffic control and strict minimum altitude and terrain clearance standards. IFR flight is what you would use for flying from point A to point B, but would be totally impractical for visual air tour flights. The flights must, at all cost, remain clear of clouds simply because they are operating so close to the terrain. There is no practical way for any pilot to fly in IFR conditions that close to terrain. Requiring two pilots is also overkill as these aircraft are 100% designed for single pilot operation. The second pilot would have nothing to do.

I'm all for any changes that could improve safety, but requiring instrument ratings and two-pilot operation are not changes that would improve safety of these operations. Establishing better training standards, company flight policies, and a culture that puts safe operation and remaining clear of clouds as the top priority over tour completion are about the only thing that can prevent accidents like this - policies and procedures that encourage good decision making and safety above all else.

The thousands of flights that are completed safely every day prove that these operations can be conducted safely the vast majority of the time. We don't know the cause of the Kauai accident, but if it proves to be flight into terrain caused by inadvertent flight into clouds, it will come back to the decisions made by the pilot in command. Maybe he thought he could get through an area without going into the clouds, but judged wrong. People are human and make mistakes. He may have inadvertently put himself in a position where flight into the clouds was unavoidable. Once that happened, no instrument rating or GPS would have likely prevented the accident that happened. 




Kapolei said:


> I quick look at a map of the Island shows that remaining over the ocean could add a significant distance to return to the heliport.  Which leads me to question how much range is left on the helicopters at the end of the tours.  Is circling the Island to the south even a viable option if the mountains and the north are clouded over?  There could be a reluctance to want take it to the beach (if you find a suitable one) due to fuel issues.  I am sure local helicopter pilots know the answers here.  I have no doubt the NTSB will identify these additional issues if they are relevant.



According to the Airbus website, the AStar helicopters flown by Safari have a maximum endurance of 4 hours and 30 minutes and a range of 340 nautical miles with standard fuel tanks. It is likely that with a full load of passengers, the tanks cannot be topped to the max for weight reasons, but I would not expect endurance to be an issue for the typical 30 to 60 minute Hawaii air tour.


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## Kapolei (Jan 1, 2020)

5,148-foot-tall Mount Waialeale receives more than 400 inches of rain annually.  

I don’t care if it is sunny in Lihue.  And I don’t care if only one VFR pilot is necessary because he can follow the terrain.  I ain’t going.  Period.


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## JIMinNC (Jan 1, 2020)

Kapolei said:


> 5,148-foot-tall Mount Waialeale receives more than 400 inches of rain annually.
> 
> I don’t care if it is sunny in Lihue.  And I don’t care if only one VFR pilot is necessary because he can follow the terrain.  I ain’t going.  Period.



Absolutely. No one should ever do something they aren’t comfortable with. I am comfortable flying in just about anything, and have flown aerobatics in vintage airplanes, high performance planes, and have ridden along through some aerobatics in a four ship jet formation where the jets were flying only about 5 or 6 feet apart and my pilot was a former USAF Thunderbird. But I would never ride a motorcycle, and driving down a narrow country road in a car with oncoming traffic just a few feet to my left makes me nervous. Different strokes for different folks.


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## Kapolei (Jan 1, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> Absolutely. No one should ever do something they aren’t comfortable with. I am comfortable flying in just about anything, and have flown aerobatics in vintage airplanes, high performance planes, and have ridden along through some aerobatics in a four ship jet formation where the jets were flying only about 5 or 6 feet apart and my pilot was a former USAF Thunderbird. But I would never ride a motorcycle, and driving down a narrow country road in a car with oncoming traffic just a few feet to my left makes me nervous. Different strokes for different folks.



I went up in a Bell Ranger by Hoover Dam with my son when he was six years old.  It was advertised by a billboard that said $29 helicopter ride.  I think we paid $40 each because we didn’t want to wait for other passengers.  The ride was about 5-10 minutes down to the lake in blue sky.  My son got to sit in the front.  That is my story about scratching helicopters off my bucket list.  My son is a teenager now.  Last trip we were shooting machine guns and a 50 cal sniper rifle.


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## JIMinNC (Jan 1, 2020)

Kapolei said:


> I went up in a Bell Ranger by Hoover Dam with my son when he was six years old.  It was advertised by a billboard that said $29 helicopter ride.  I think we paid $40 each because we didn’t want to wait for other passengers.  The ride was about 5-10 minutes down to the lake in blue sky.  My son got to sit in the front.  That is my story about scratching helicopters off my bucket list.  My son is a teenager now.  Last trip we were shooting machine guns and a 50 cal sniper rifle.


 
As I said different strokes for different folks; you won’t find a gun in my hands. The things have always given me the creeps for some reason.


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## tompalm (Jan 1, 2020)

Here’s another option if your aircraft flies into a cloud.  Add Max power and climb to 5500 feet.

Kawaikini Peak is Kauai's highest point at 5,148 feet and has been known as the wettest spot on Earth, with over 400 inches of rain per year. The most spectacular geographical landmarks on Kauai are the *Napali Coast* and the *Waimea Canyon* State Park.


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## Kapolei (Jan 1, 2020)

tompalm said:


> Here’s another option if your aircraft flies into a cloud.  Add Max power and climb to 5500 feet.
> 
> Kawaikini Peak is Kauai's highest point at 5,148 feet and has been known as the wettest spot on Earth, with over 400 inches of rain per year. The most spectacular geographical landmarks on Kauai are the *Napali Coast* and the *Waimea Canyon* State Park.



One of the news reports shows where he flew into the top of a ridge.  I think that ridge was 2700 feet.   There was a hiker in the area that heard hovering.  Lost and hovering or just heading home?  Either way he needed to be a few hundred feet higher.  And he should not be flying into clouds.  So maybe clouds weren’t there earlier? Maybe conditions were worse elsewhere?

These tourists have the right to expect the same level of care that they get from the commercial flights that bring them to Hawaii.  There have been too many of these.  Something needs to change.  If they stopped flying these because it is too expensive to do it right, so be it.  Those people should not be dead.


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## JIMinNC (Jan 2, 2020)

Kapolei said:


> These tourists have the right to expect the same level of care that they get from the commercial flights that bring them to Hawaii.  There have been too many of these.  Something needs to change.  If they stopped flying these because it is too expensive to do it right, so be it.  Those people should not be dead.



I agree that air tour customers should expect the operators, pilots, FAA, etc. to put their focus on safety just as much as the commercial airlines do, but the simple fact is, these kinds of operations will probably never have the same almost spotless safety record that the major airlines do. The aircraft are smaller and less sophisticated, and more importantly, these flights operate at lower altitudes in closer proximity to the terrain. While the chances of a safe air tour are still around 99.9%, there will always be somewhat greater risk in these types of operations compared to major airlines. In a similar vein, commercial busses have a better safety record than cars, and cars are safer than motorcycles. I do think most, if not all, tourists understand that air tours are different than airlines and accept the slightly higher, but still low, risk.

One interesting thing I did read was that while the overall air tour accident rate has improved substantially over what it was in the 1980s and 1990s, in Hawaii, the number of accidents caused by VFR flight into the clouds increased after a rule was passed that required the flights in Hawaii to fly no lower than 1,500 feet above ground (I think this rule was driven by noise concerns if I recall correctly). That rule had the unintended consequence of putting the aircraft closer to the clouds and increasing the chances of inadvertent flight into the clouds. That's one reason we have to be very careful about just enacting new restrictions - sometimes they have unintended consequences.

...and based on this new thread that was just posted on this board, it seems just going to a north shore beach on Kauai during high surf season can put your life at risk: 
Rogue Wave Hits Hanakapi'ai Beach

I go back to the quote from Walter Wriston that I posted above -- "All life is the management of risk, not its elimination."


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jan 2, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> ...and based on this new thread that was just posted on this board, it seems just going to a north shore beach on Kauai during high surf season can put your life at risk:
> Rogue Wave Hits Hanakapi'ai Beach
> 
> I go back to the quote from Walter Wriston that I posted above -- "All life is the management of risk, not its elimination."


In November a cousin (and close friend and ex-employee) of my BIL died at Secret Beach.  He was about 60 years old, and had just retired.  The trip to Hawaii was a retirement event for him and his wife.

He was familiar with Secret Beach. Family members mentioned that he had cautioned them about conditions there in previous trips.  He didn't go out far, but it was far enough for him to apparently get knocked off balance and carried out to sea by a rip current. Some surfers tried to rescue him. But he died before they could get him ashore.


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## Kapolei (Jan 2, 2020)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> In November a cousin (and close friend and ex-employee) of my BIL died at Secret Beach.  He was about 60 years old, and had just retired.  The trip to Hawaii was a retirement event for him and his wife.
> 
> He was familiar with Secret Beach. Family members mentioned that he had cautioned them about conditions there in previous trips.  He didn't go out far, but it was far enough for him to apparently get knocked off balance and carried out to sea by a rip current. Some surfers tried to rescue him. But he died before they could get him ashore.



Many are familiar with the Cessna Caravan crashing in the sea off Molokai through the vivid videos on YouTube.   The pilot did a terrific job.  Unfortunately, one life was lost largely as a result of the one passenger having the wrong life jacket (one for a child).  She did not appear to be in the best of shape for swimming or treading water in the open sea.

I love the ocean.  But I no longer venture out in rough seas.  The ocean can be enjoyed by walks along the shoreline.  And a nice swim in a calm lagoon.  Hawaii is no place to challenge yourself in the later years.


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## Kapolei (Jan 15, 2020)

NTSB prelim report out.  Pilot returning from 8th flight of day.  Maybe he wanted or needed a direct route home?


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## tompalm (Jan 18, 2020)

Kapolei said:


> NTSB prelim report out.  Pilot returning from 8th flight of day.  Maybe he wanted or needed a direct route home?


The wind was very strong that day and the clouds were heavy with lots of rain. Just flying a normal route would have changed from the wind blowing the aircraft off course while the aircraft was inside the clouds. That is the most likely event. If he was going direct, he would have climbed higher above the highest Peak in the area. It is possible that he changed his route, but unlikely because he had a lot of flight time in that area and knew the terrain.


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## pedro47 (Jan 18, 2020)

How do you select or choice a good and safe helicopter tour of the island ?


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## JIMinNC (Jan 18, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> How do you select or choice a good and safe helicopter tour of the island ?



All of the major companies like Safari, Blue Hawaiian, Maverick, etc. operate under the same FAA rules and fly similar A-Star and Eco-Star equipment. All offer similar tours and packages.

Accidents can and do happen, as is the case with anything in life, but all of the ones that operate the modern jet engine-powered Airbus-built helicopters are good safe companies. Most have had incidents over the years, but they are all rare, IMHO. As this discussion has shown, though, "safety" and "risk" tolerance are very different for different people. Are these helicopter tours as inherently safe as the Boeing 767, 777, or Airbus A321 you may have arrived from the mainland on? No. They operate in a totally different environment at lower altitudes. But are they "safe", and are your chances of a safe and successful flight greater than 99.5%? IMHO, Yes.

The only tours I might avoid would be some of the smaller, marginal operators that fly the piston-engine Robinson R-44 type helicopters. While I wouldn't call those "unsafe" by my definition, I would say they are less sophisticated helicopters with less redundancy and probably statistically are less "safe." But even there, your odds of a successful safe flight are incredibly high.


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## pedro47 (Jan 18, 2020)

JIMinNC, thanks I have saved and print your post.

God country is Carolina Blue.


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## Henry M. (Jan 24, 2020)

I've taken a Blue Hawaiian tour on Kauai and was satisfied. I would do it again in a heartbeat. I flew in a similar helicopter from Las Vegas to the Grand Canyon. 

Personally, I would be more concerned about a deadly highway accident driving to a big city airport than about a crash with a reputable tour company. Sure, an accident can happen, but life is full of risks everywhere you turn, and in the end you'll die no matter what you do. I would rather enjoy the ride while I'm on it.


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## artringwald (Jan 26, 2020)

Henry M. said:


> Sure, an accident can happen, but life is full of risks everywhere you turn, and in the end you'll die no matter what you do.



Shel Silverstein said it perfectly in this song performed by Bob Gibson.


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## Kapolei (Jan 27, 2020)

another crash into an obscured mountain


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## Henry M. (Jan 27, 2020)

Continued flight into IMC (instrument meteorological conditions) is never good. The explanation in the video makes sense. It was not something inherently unsafe in the flight characteristics of a helicopter, but rather misjudgment of the weather and terrain.


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## Kapolei (Jan 27, 2020)

I liked the part of the explanation about the helicopter needing forward speed for instrument flight.  A computer/autopilot can’t just save you from these messy circumstances.


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## tompalm (Jan 29, 2020)

This article has it right about why the pilot didn’t use his instrument rating. Because it is more work and takes more time.  Also sad that the FAA didn’t follow recommendations to put terrain warning equipment on aircraft with six people or more.  But feeling pressure to get a VIP to destination is a sorry excuse. 









						Kobe Bryant pilot 'may have felt pressured to get him to destination'
					

Kobe Bryant's pilot, Ara Zobayan (left), 50, may have felt pressure to get the NBA legend to his destination when he made the decision to fly through foggy conditions on Sunday, experts have said.




					flip.it


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## Kapolei (Jan 30, 2020)

tompalm said:


> .....feeling pressure to get a VIP to destination is a sorry excuse.



In the Kauai case, there may have been pressure to get home after the 8th flight of the day.  I wonder if they refuel on every trip.


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## JIMinNC (Jan 30, 2020)

Kapolei said:


> In the Kauai case, there may have been pressure to get home after the 8th flight of the day.  I wonder if they refuel on every trip.



My experience is they do not refuel after every trip. I've been on tours where we were delayed boarding until the fueling operation was complete, but on others we just boarded as soon as the previous tour unloaded. I would certainly expect any large operator like Safari would have operations procedures that dictate the minimum fuel levels/reserves needed for each tour. If those levels aren't met, then they refuel. All of the major tour operators, including Safari, are certified FAA Part 135 charter operations, so they must have operations manuals that define things like that. Could they violate their own procedures? Sure. But most of these companies try to operate responsibly.


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## Kapolei (Jan 31, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> My experience is they do not refuel after every trip. I've been on tours where we were delayed boarding until the fueling operation was complete, but on others we just boarded as soon as the previous tour unloaded. I would certainly expect any large operator like Safari would have operations procedures that dictate the minimum fuel levels/reserves needed for each tour. If those levels aren't met, then they refuel. All of the major tour operators, including Safari, are certified FAA Part 135 charter operations, so they must have operations manuals that define things like that. Could they violate their own procedures? Sure. But most of these companies try to operate responsibly.



The issue came up in my mind because I was comparing the distance between circumnavigating the island to return home versus flying back over the mountains. The distance is significant.

On the topic of the other crash, the latest news is that the operator was not certified for IFR operations.  Therefore, may of been some pressure on pilot to stay VFR or special VFR that day.  IFR flight plan not allowed.


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