# Are purchasers of resale timeshares about to loose a perk?



## geka (Mar 24, 2007)

Just came back from Orlando. Went to hear a presentation at Grande Vista.  Was told by the rep that the plan in the very near future is to take away the perk in regard to... Marriott owners 24 day preference in Interval on all Marriott deposits... from those who purchased resale instead of from Marriott directly.  The rep said that they want to give this perk exclusively to those who purchased Marriott directly from Marriott as those owners paid more for their timeshare.  Gotta give them something else besides the points. Has anyone else heard this?


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## pacheco18 (Mar 24, 2007)

Isn't it a preference set by II?

What a recordkeeping nightmare!

Now that sounds like a snake oil salesman!!!


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## irish (Mar 24, 2007)

don't believe everything you hear from  a salesperson. when notification is provided by marriot corporate then i'll believe it.


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## Kingwayne (Mar 24, 2007)

*marriot corporate*

 Sounds smart for marriott to do that more people will buy from developer and resale prices will go down then they ROFR all the resales
But it not good for owners who purchased  resale


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## ciscogizmo1 (Mar 24, 2007)

pacheco18 said:


> Isn't it a preference set by II?



I thought it was an agreement between II and Marriott because Marriott did not have an internal trading system like Westin, Worldmark, Disney, etc.  So this was one way to give an internal trading preference but only for 24 days.  Also, I think it can be easily done too by just having a separate resale code for those that buy resale.  Very easy to implement.  

Maybe this is a sign that Marriott is going to go to their own internal trading system.


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## pacheco18 (Mar 24, 2007)

Maybe Dave can tell us if there is any truth to this rumor.


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## Dave M (Mar 24, 2007)

I have no info either way, but I am quite skeptical of info first "announced" by an onsite salesperson, particularly when the info is designed to encourage the listener to buy from the developer.


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## swing4thefence (Mar 24, 2007)

*Shut it down*

I think you should call Owner Services, speak with a supervisor, give the name of that Sales Executive and get his candy ass fired.

Even better, ask the S.E. to write it down.


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## Dave M (Mar 24, 2007)

swing4thefence said:


> Even better, ask the S.E. to write it down.


That's the best advice. When it involves buying a timeshare, if something is not in writing, assume that it doesn't exist.


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## farmer (Mar 24, 2007)

I would think that Marriott is exploring ever possible way to discourage resales. Too many are going to the resale market and I am sure the numbers are growing each year. This is a huge amount of money that they are missing out on. They will figure something out in the near future to close the loop.


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## swing4thefence (Mar 24, 2007)

farmer said:


> I would think that Marriott is exploring ever possible way to discourage resales. Too many are going to the resale market and I am sure the numbers are growing each year. This is a huge amount of money that they are missing out on. They will figure something out in the near future to close the loop.



I disagree.
I think that resale purchases are a drop in the bucket compared to developer sales.
However the thing to remember is that salesperson you are speaking with doesn't get his commission if you buy on the resale market.  And if his manager isn't listening, he can promise you anything he wants to, because according to many contracts, "YOU AND THE SELLER AGREE THAT NO ONE HAS PROMISED ANYTHING, EXCEPT WHAT IS WRITTEN IN <the contract documents>"
That is from a friend's Canyon Villas contract. Page 4 Article 19.  It's actually all caps in the contract.
It's too bad that a few dirty SOB's ruin the reputation of all the honest S.E.'s that are hopefully out there.


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## hipslo (Mar 24, 2007)

farmer said:


> I would think that Marriott is exploring ever possible way to discourage resales. Too many are going to the resale market and I am sure the numbers are growing each year. This is a huge amount of money that they are missing out on. They will figure something out in the near future to close the loop.



I suspect this is correct.  The key question then becomes, would these changes, whatever they are, effect only resales that occur after they are implemented, or would they also apply to existing weeks that were purchased resale?  While I'd like to believe it would be the former, I must say if I were the betting type my money would be on the latter.  

One interesting question would be, I wonder whether they'd give any thought to allowing existing resale owners to pay some sort of a fee to be treated from then on as retail purchasers, sort of like an equity upgrade?  If I were Marriott, I would be seriously thinking about this.  If they kept such a fee within reasonable parameters, it could generate quite a windfall for them, without damaging goodwill among existing owners too seriously.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 24, 2007)

If they were to impliment this you would see resale prices drop dramaticly. While this may bennefit Marriott with the ROFR, Marriott is not in the business of buying resale and reselling. The bulk of their profits are generated by selling new inventory. I would think that the margin of profit is just not as good with buying resale. They don't want to end up holding on to inventory that they can not unload quickly. This is the same as with any business.


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## hipslo (Mar 24, 2007)

dioxide45 said:


> If they were to impliment this you would see resale prices drop dramaticly. While this may bennefit Marriott with the ROFR, Marriott is not in the business of buying resale and reselling. The bulk of their profits are generated by selling new inventory. I would think that the margin of profit is just not as good with buying resale. They don't want to end up holding on to inventory that they can not unload quickly. This is the same as with any business.



Yes, but, since rofr is optional, not mandatory, they could simply exercise only when there is a need to do so given the level of demand at a particular resort, same as now.  Only difference would be the price would be lower, and their profit would be higher.  So, there could be lots of bargains out there, if rofr is not exercised that often, even at lower prices.  However, if any new distinctions between retail and resale are really meaningful (which they'd have to be in order to cause resale prices to drop much from current levels), the "bargains" wouldnt really be bargains, they'd presumably be priced appropriately, given the bundle of rights associated with resale weeks at that point, at least if one believes in the efficiency of the marketplace.  (All of this purely hypothetical, of course, unless anyone has any hard info beyond rumor, speculation, wishful thinking of sales reps, etc).


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## Quilter (Mar 24, 2007)

My deeds are in the safe deposit box, so I can't check.   When ownership was transferred, wasn't the whole deed and the rights attached to that deed transferred?


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## littlestar (Mar 24, 2007)

Resorts need dues paying owners (even Marriott). It seems to me if they destroy the value of resales, they would be destroying the overall value of their whole vacation club. People have life changing events that make them need to sell a timeshare - divorce, death, old age (can't travel anymore), etc. If Marriott did something like this, I personally wouldn't want to have anything to do with their timeshares. Why buy something developer and know later on down the line if you needed to sell it, it might be pretty much worthless.

We bought developer from Disney and recently sold a couple of small contracts for a profit (only took one day to sell them). I'm sure those DVC contracts wouldn't have sold very easily if Disney had a bunch of rules that punished a resale buyer. 

If I find out Marriott is going to do this, I'll sell our Marriott while I can get out of it.


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## gmarine (Mar 24, 2007)

I dont think this will ever happen. 
First, Marriott isnt going to want to screw current owners, even though they bought resale. The bad press Marriott might receive would alone be prohibitive but these tens of thousands of owners also control the HOAs at resorts managed by Marriott.

Second, II wouldnt go for this. One of the perks that II members receive by depositing their Marriott weeks is the Marriott preference. Take that away and Marriott deposits to II will drop and many Marriott members may choose not to remain II members. In turn II will have less Marriott inventory to offer owners of other high quality resorts who in turn may not exchange and/or remain members. It is a big loss to II and they likely wouldnt go for it.

IMO, all the OP heard was another salesperson trying to make a sale any way he could. Like anything a timeshare salesperson says, take it with a grain of salt.


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## hipslo (Mar 24, 2007)

littlestar said:


> Resorts need dues paying owners (even Marriott). It seems to me if they destroy the value of resales, they would be destroying the overall value of their whole vacation club. People have life changing events that make them need to sell a timeshare - divorce, death, old age (can't travel anymore), etc. If Marriott did something like this, I personally wouldn't want to have anything to do with their timeshares. Why buy something developer and know later on down the line if you needed to sell it, it might be pretty much worthless.



They could institute some sort of program where you could sell it back to them for, say, 60% of what you paid them for it, and make this the only way to sell.  Or maybe even 60% of the current retail pricing.  If they were willing to do this, and guarantee that they'd always buy it back at 60% of current retail (which is roughly what resale prices are, typically), they could shut down the resale market right in its tracks.  Not to give them any ideas, but I suspect this has to be something they've at least thought about.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 24, 2007)

hipslo said:


> They could institute some sort of program where you could sell it back to them for, say, 60% of what you paid them for it, and make this the only way to sell.  Or maybe even 60% of the current retail pricing.  If they were willing to do this, and guarantee that they'd always buy it back at 60% of current retail (which is roughly what resale prices are, typically), they could shut down the resale market right in its tracks.  Not to give them any ideas, but I suspect this has to be something they've at least thought about.



The problem with this is that they wouldn't want to do this for an infinate period of time. The older the resort is the less likely that Marriott will be able to turn it over quickly. If they bought every resale unit that is available for resale, they would be holding a lot of old resort inventory. Once a resort is out of active sales (all units sold) what determines the retail value? Is there one?


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## hipslo (Mar 24, 2007)

dioxide45 said:


> The problem with this is that they wouldn't want to do this for an infinate period of time. The older the resort is the less likely that Marriott will be able to turn it over quickly. If they bought every resale unit that is available for resale, they would be holding a lot of old resort inventory. Once a resort is out of active sales (all units sold) what determines the retail value? Is there one?



Good questions, and I do not pretend to have the answers.  I suppose another similar way they could handle it would be that they would be required to be the exclusive broker for resales, and not permit owner sales without going through them.  Then they'd charge full freight developer prices to new buyers and charge a 40% or so commission. I believe there is already such a prgram in place, and it wouldnt take much, going forward, to make this the only way to sell a unit.  My only point is that, in an organization the size and sophistication of MVCI, I've got to believe that there is at least one person whose full time assignment, or close, must be to think through the various alternatives, and make some proprosals/ recommendations.  The above are just some examples that occur to me off the top of my head.  Whatever form it takes, it would not surprise me to see some changes in the future, though exactly what and when are anyone's guess.


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## hipslo (Mar 24, 2007)

Quilter said:


> My deeds are in the safe deposit box, so I can't check.   When ownership was transferred, wasn't the whole deed and the rights attached to that deed transferred?




Don't know the details on this, but I suspect MVCI's legal department does, in spades.  Including the ability to offer NEW programs only to retail buyers (as opposed to taking away EXISTING rights from resale buyers). A fine distinction, perhaps, but that may be all that is needed.


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## Steve (Mar 24, 2007)

hipslo said:


> I suppose another similar way they could handle it would be that they would be required to be the exclusive broker for resales, and not permit owner sales without going through them.  Then they'd charge full freight developer prices to new buyers and charge a 40% or so commission. I believe there is already such a prgram in place, and it wouldnt take much, going forward, to make this the only way to sell a unit.



I don't believe this is possible to implement for existing owners.  For current Marriott owners, Marriott is the management company.  A management company cannot mandate these types of policies.  There would need to be restrictions recorded with the deeds...or at least with the governing documents. 

Personally, I don't think Marriott wants the obligation or the hassle of dealing with this.  But even if they did...this is something that they would need to implement with new owners and/or new resorts.  This is not something that they could apply to current owners.  When a person owns deeded real estate, a management company can't just decide to take away or alter that owner's rights to sell his property. 

Steve


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## hipslo (Mar 24, 2007)

Steve said:


> this is something that they would need to implement with new owners and/or new resorts.  This is not something that they could apply to current owners.  When a person owns deeded real estate, a management company can't just decide to take away or alter that owner's rights to sell his property.



I agree.  However, if coupled with a system under which certain new "perks" (again, speaking purely hypothetically) would only be available to buyers who purchase from Marriott, if that has a major adverse effect on the prices that folks are willing to pay for directly purchased resale weeks, while not "required", this could be the better option for sellers, including existing owners, to use.   Just something to think about - the only lesson is not to get too complacent, as the only constant seems to be that "change happens".


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## PerryM (Mar 24, 2007)

*I smell a rookie...*

Here is a great wealth of timeshare stats: ARDA 

I would not lose a second of sleep over this one.  There are many things going for the status quo:

1)	The salesrep said it to begin with – no written documentation to back it up
2)	Only 7.2% of all timeshare sales are resale
3)	57% of all timeshare sales is thru the developer
4)	48% of all timeshare usage are exchanges
5)	80% of all timeshare owners are very satisfied or somewhat satisfied

Why would Marriott want to kick a hornet’s nest with the above numbers?

I can see Marriott creating their own internal exchange network and the result would be a drastic drop in Marriott reservations making it into II - there would be no need for a 24 day window.  This would be a sad day for me, but I’d probably then buy Marriotts since the internal exchange network will probably make Marriotts worth much much much more resale.  (Did I mention much more?)

I think what happened is a rookie salesrep is trying to frighten a sale out of the OP instead of using sales techniques that the Platinum/Diamond salesreps use – they don’t need to lie to make a sale.

P.S.
I always take a pair of those foam ear plugs with me to a sales presentation and have them in my pocket.  If the salesrep has some awards on the wall or on his business card, indicating that he is a top salesrep, I put in the ear plugs and just nod the whole time   Trust me you want to do the same, they are that good.


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## jesuis1837 (Mar 24, 2007)

PerryM said:


> 2)	Only 7.2% of all timeshare sales are resale
> 3)	57% of all timeshare sales is thru the developer
> 
> I always take a pair of those foam ear plugs with me to a sales presentation and have them in my pocket.  If the salesrep has some awards on the wall or on his business card, indicating that he is a top salesrep, I put in the ear plugs and just nod the whole time   Trust me you want to do the same, they are that good.




Sorry Perry but 57% +7%=64%... where do come the rest of the sales then?   I thought resale market was much higher than 7.2%. That is something new to me!  It is good to know anyhow...


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## JimC (Mar 24, 2007)

farmer said:


> I would think that Marriott is exploring ever possible way to discourage resales. Too many are going to the resale market and I am sure the numbers are growing each year. This is a huge amount of money that they are missing out on. They will figure something out in the near future to close the loop.



I'm not so sure.  An active resale market is vital to the timeshare industry.  Killing that might hurt a developer rather than help.


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## KenK (Mar 24, 2007)

jesuis1837 said:


> Sorry Perry but 57% +7%=64%... where do come the rest of the sales then?   I thought resale market was much higher than 7.2%. That is something new to me!  It is good to know anyhow...



Maybe Timeshare Reliefs' program skews the numbers?


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## JimC (Mar 24, 2007)

jesuis1837 said:


> Sorry Perry but 57% +7%=64%... where do come the rest of the sales then?   I thought resale market was much higher than 7.2%. That is something new to me!  It is good to know anyhow...



"57.4% of recent buyers purchased directly from a developer; 24.9% purchased from a home owners’ association; 10.5% acquired their timeshare as a gift, inheritance, or from some other source; 7.2%purchased from a pervious owner.

The average recent buyer attended 2.6 sales presentations before making a purchase."  -- ARDA


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## jesuis1837 (Mar 24, 2007)

Thanks !


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## PerryM (Mar 24, 2007)

*Follow the yellow brick road....*



jesuis1837 said:


> Sorry Perry but 57% +7%=64%... where do come the rest of the sales then?   I thought resale market was much higher than 7.2%. That is something new to me!  It is good to know anyhow...




Just Follow The Yellow Brick Road to timeshare land.

Sales from:
57% developer sales
25% property owner associations (Marriott has none of this)
10% Other (foreclosures, forced sales for taxes, etc)
7% resales
the rest is misc.

Notice that 91% of all timeshares are used by the owners in one way or the other only 9% go unused.

Any timeshare greater than 9% in unused usage is a sign of owner unrest.

P.S.
Oops Jim, didn't see your post before my fat finger clicked the mouse.

P.P.S.
That 7.2% resale figure from other owners is an interesting number.  You can use it to justify the developer supporting resales AND ignoring them.

Marriott and Disney are great examples of the developer involvement in active resales – supporting the resale price.  This can be viewed 2 ways too: 1) phony support of an artificial price 2) developer realizing an easy profit with very little risk.

I view resales as they are – the developer is making an easy profit and the owners benefit with higher resale values; both parties win.

Will the artificially supported resale price collapse?  Well, if anyone can answer that question they should easily be able to know if the DOW will open higher or lower on the next trading day's open – they will be zillionaires that put Bill Gates to shame.


On the other side:

Why bother with just 7% - just ignore the resale market and even make it a hostile target to destroy.  Just look at FairField’s 15% resale market price point and WorldMark’s 40% resale market price point as shining examples of the developer treating their owners as the enemy.


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## JimIg23 (Mar 24, 2007)

How did Sheraton do it with their internal trade system?  I thought they did something similar to what this suggests.


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## m61376 (Mar 24, 2007)

hipslo said:


> They could institute some sort of program where you could sell it back to them for, say, 60% of what you paid them for it, and make this the only way to sell.  Or maybe even 60% of the current retail pricing.  If they were willing to do this, and guarantee that they'd always buy it back at 60% of current retail (which is roughly what resale prices are, typically), they could shut down the resale market right in its tracks.  Not to give them any ideas, but I suspect this has to be something they've at least thought about.


If that was part of the offering, then they'd be admitting outright that as soon as the buyer signs on the dotted line they'd be losing 40% of their investment- I would think that would be bad for business.

Besides, they are expanding their properties and the best potential buyers are those that are happy with their product- repeat customers. Even resale buyers are buyers at initial offerings, so I doubt they'd want to alienate such a large pool of potential customers.

The bottom line is the bottom line- Marriott is in business to make money and undermining the resale value of their properties is not in their best interest.


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## geka (Mar 24, 2007)

Thanks for all the replies. The rep my husband and I spoke with is the same one we saw last year and he has risen in the ranks where he now has his own office upstairs and trains those below him.  He was telling us to make our reservations with our deposit with Interval soon as the perk would soon no longer be there. He sounded convincing. We had signed a contract with him last year to purchase at MGV but then cancelled it after I found this site and realized that there were resales out there...thanks to all of you.  At our meeting this year he was very friendly but knew we were not going to buy.  He didn't even try to sell to us. Told him we were there for the SeaWorld tickets.  Guess I am naive?  He sounded truthful but I have not had much experience with this type of sales.


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## potchak (Mar 24, 2007)

Guess he was trying to get back at you for not purchasing with him.


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## MikeM132 (Mar 25, 2007)

geka said:


> Just came back from Orlando. Went to hear a presentation at Grande Vista.  Was told by the rep that the plan in the very near future is to take away the perk in regard to... Marriott owners 24 day preference in Interval on all Marriott deposits... from those who purchased resale instead of from Marriott directly.  The rep said that they want to give this perk exclusively to those who purchased Marriott directly from Marriott as those owners paid more for their timeshare.  Gotta give them something else besides the points. Has anyone else heard this?


I own at GV, bought developer. I talked to a couple of folks at GV 2 weeks ago (was there for Spring Break) and suggested taking the tour from Marriott, then going 1 Block up I-Drive to the huge Timeshare Resale store. I have talked to them about Disney, and that store is pretty straight from my experience. I told the other couples they will probably pay about half what Marriott is asking. My guess would be Grande Vista, more than any other Marriott, is feeling the resale heat. Marriott has their main sales office for everywhere only 1/2 mile from one of the main resale sales offices in the US. It would seem to me salespeople from Marriott will, out of necessity, come up with some "creative" sales pitches under these circustances. 
That being said, there is a lot of talk about Marriott setting up their own trading system of some kind. Could they eliminate that 24 day window for resale? Sure. Does you salesman have advance knowledge of this....highly doubtful.


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## potchak (Mar 25, 2007)

When we were in Park City last year, we didn't take a tour per se at the Marriott, but we did take a quick look around with a sales guy. He said that Marriott was definitely looking into their own internal trading systems. I am kinda curious how it would work considering we bought Hawaii for the high trade value, but yet for our Hawaii week (Island View, Platinum 2 bd Waiohai) we would only get 85K pts from MR. Obviously I will never trade that week for points, but I am hoping that is not an indicator of how it would be valued in an internal system. I would hate to think that Grande Vista in Orlando, or Manor Club in Williamsburg would have the same value as my week in Hawaii. Should be interesting to see what they end up doing from an internal perspective.


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## camachinist (Mar 25, 2007)

When MR fully devalues points (not there yet), they'll have to do something to differentiate developer from resale, especially considering the inroads of eBay and the internet into spreading the resale word, not to mention all the resale brokers.

Most of our fellow boomer friends who own timeshares bought developer, but I don't see their kids following suit. They're just too information-savvy. Marriott is going to have to do something about that, especially in a softening  timeshare marketplace.

I could see changes in the exchange priority period, as well as reservation periods, to accomplish this differentiation.

As an example of such change, unless I'm happily wrong, our older NCV developer purchase only brings 110K points for surrender wheras a newer purchaser of the same interval (who paid more) gets 125K points for surrender and I believe it is now EY where ours is EOY. Same real estate, same ownership, same developer purchase, different benefits (if I'm right). Look for it (change in "perks") to happen more significantly for resale. 

Remember, Marriott makes their money on developing and managing. The most important thing to them is to sell out and then collect MF's. Scaling back their internal resale program (don't hear as much about trade-ins or sales anymore) and changing the rental program are two steps in that direction. Perhaps the next step will be that Marriott renting won't be available to resale owners. Interesting...

I'm not saying any of this is smart long-term, but it's just my instincts about where they're headed.

Pat


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## PerryM (Mar 25, 2007)

*Listen up Marriott... (Like they ever would)*

I personally think Marriott should just exchange MRP privileges for an Internal Exchange (IE) system.  They could just do away with MRPs overnight and everyone would rather have an internal exchange system – I favor a Point system myself.

Then after IE starts offer a 1 time fee of 20% of the current sales price the non-Marriott bought weeks or $2,500, which ever is greater, to join IE (per week).  After that one day, only developer sales will qualify for IE.

Simple solution to MRPs.


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## m61376 (Mar 25, 2007)

Perry- While your solution addresses grandfathering (so to speak- at least for a fee) current resale owners, don't you think that by excluding resale buyers from an IE system in the future it will basically collapse the resale market? People are willing to spend the big bucks for Marriott in part because they feel that, if their needs change down the road, there is inherent value and it can be sold. Despite hearing that timeshares are not an investment, I would venture to guess that many view them that way. At the very least, it is comforting to know there is some equity. 

Unless Marriott intends to buy back anything offered to them at 60% or so, which I don't think is their primary business, I would think that devaluating the resale market would not be to their benefit because it would also impinge upon new development sales. Personally, I would think a few times about laying out big $$'s, even pre-construction, if I knew that is was unlikely that, even a few years down the road, I would get anything approaching the purchase price. Most people who bought at pre-construction prices in the early 2000's could sell them today for at least what they paid, sometimes even a little more, on the resale market, and those early sales help get the projects off the ground. Marriott is one of the few timeshares (along with DVC and a few others) where the buyer can be confident of some equity value, esp. if bought at the opening of sales. If true, this would destroy that. It may be wishful thinking, but I can't see them going that route because it would be bad for business.


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## Steve (Mar 25, 2007)

potchak said:


> I would hate to think that Grande Vista in Orlando, or Manor Club in Williamsburg would have the same value as my week in Hawaii. Should be interesting to see what they end up doing from an internal perspective.



I can understand why you feel the way that you do.  However, I don't see how Marriott could value platinum weeks at certain resorts higher than platinum weeks at others without generating a firestorm of protests and possibly a class action lawsuit.  The reason I say this is that Marriott has sold buyers at Grande Vista, Manor Club, and everywhere else on a program whereby you can trade your platinum week for another platinum week at any other resort in the system.  

If suddenly it takes the equivalent of two of my platinum Manor Club weeks in order to exchange for one of your platinum Hawaii weeks...then my ownership has been seriously devalued.  In contrast, Hawaii buyers were never promised that their one platinum week could be exchanged for two platinum weeks in Orlando or Williamsburg.  You may feel...based on your purchase price...that this would be fair.  But Marriott never represented that this is or would be the case.

So, in creating an internal exchange system, Marriott is far more likely to have a platinum week at any resort trade for a platinum week at any other resort.  This maintains the trust and the promises that were made to buyers at all of the Marriott resorts.  To do otherwise would open Marriott up to a whole pandora's box of problems with their owners.

Steve


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## short (Mar 25, 2007)

*Like for like*



potchak said:


> When we were in Park City last year, we didn't take a tour per se at the Marriott, but we did take a quick look around with a sales guy. He said that Marriott was definitely looking into their own internal trading systems. I am kinda curious how it would work considering we bought Hawaii for the high trade value, but yet for our Hawaii week (Island View, Platinum 2 bd Waiohai) we would only get 85K pts from MR. Obviously I will never trade that week for points, but I am hoping that is not an indicator of how it would be valued in an internal system. I would hate to think that Grande Vista in Orlando, or Manor Club in Williamsburg would have the same value as my week in Hawaii. Should be interesting to see what they end up doing from an internal perspective.



Personnally I think they will give Plat 2 br MGV and Plat IV 2 br Waiohai the same basic value.  Waiohai plat plus or OV or OF might get higher value.  Unless they use some point value that makes sense based on past sales and representations for each I do not see that Marriott will want to totally annoy tons of Florida owners.

My guess is the values will be set on current season designations and size of units.  After that it will be first come first serve.  After that projected unused inventory will be deposited to II to pay for nonMarriott exchanges.  A Waiohai depositer to II could get credited with a MGV fringe Plat season deposit.  This is currently the way Westin works.

Second option is the way HGVC does which is use a negotiated fixed value for all HGVC exchanges into RCI based on a point value for season and size of unit.  This eliminates the ability to get trades up but also eliminates the differences in trade power for each deposit.

Marriotts biggest problem with setting up a internal exchange system is that they have a big ego.  They would not like to be seen copying other hotel based system  even though they really should take the best of each system to make their own.

Short


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## PerryM (Mar 25, 2007)

m61376 said:


> Perry- While your solution addresses grandfathering (so to speak- at least for a fee) current resale owners, *don't you think that by excluding resale buyers from an IE system in the future it will basically collapse the resale market?* People are willing to spend the big bucks for Marriott in part because they feel that, if their needs change down the road, there is inherent value and it can be sold. Despite hearing that timeshares are not an investment, I would venture to guess that many view them that way. At the very least, it is comforting to know there is some equity.
> 
> Unless Marriott intends to buy back anything offered to them at 60% or so, which I don't think is their primary business, I would think that devaluating the resale market would not be to their benefit because it would also impinge upon new development sales. Personally, I would think a few times about laying out big $$'s, even pre-construction, if I knew that is was unlikely that, even a few years down the road, I would get anything approaching the purchase price. Most people who bought at pre-construction prices in the early 2000's could sell them today for at least what they paid, sometimes even a little more, on the resale market, and those early sales help get the projects off the ground. Marriott is one of the few timeshares (along with DVC and a few others) where the buyer can be confident of some equity value, esp. if bought at the opening of sales. If true, this would destroy that. It may be wishful thinking, but I can't see them going that route because it would be bad for business.




Not at all.

There would be no requirement to join the IE and you could just exchange thru II like now – minus the 24 day window probably.

There are many folks who pay $2,500 to join RCI Points, and they do it.  Marriott could offer the same type of fee – one time to grandfather folks in.

There has to be something that the developer offers that resale weeks don’t – the IE would be perfect with the II alternative.  I think that MRPs are losing their purpose in life – to make developer bought weeks superior to resale bought weeks.

The trading power of Marriott weeks in II would probably skyrocket and thus a reason for resale prices to remain high.  I think it’s a win-win all around.

But, if Marriott doesn’t like this plan I have dozens of others….


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## Dave M (Mar 25, 2007)

It has taken a while, but....

I believe I can now confirm that Marriott has no current plans to differentiate resale timeshares and developer timeshares for purposes of the 24-day II priority exchange window. 

The subject has been discussed internally, at least among some salespeople. Some of those thoughts include (1) make a change for _future_ resale transactions or (2) make a change for future resale transactions but exempt those owners who own at least one timeshare purchased from Marriott.

However, as I stated, _there are no current plans to make a change_. As accurately stated in this thread, resale owners and a viable resale market are important to Marriott.


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## Quilter (Mar 25, 2007)

Dave M said:


> It has taken a while, but....
> 
> I believe I can now confirm that Marriott has no current plans to differentiate resale timeshares and developer timeshares for purposes of the 24-day II priority exchange window.
> 
> ...



This is good to hear.  I get so tired of hearing sour grapes come from salespeople who don't like the fact the resale market exists.  

As the program stands the only difference between developer and resale is the points system.   The point system was a very nice perk when we bought our original weeks but has taken a severe dip in value since then.    Why can't the clever people in the Marriott corportion come up with a new way to incent future buyers to pay the exhorbatant prices that are attached to current developer weeks?  Sure points vacations are nice but who in their right mind would pay the rumored prices coming out for the Marco property with point incentives that hardly compare to the ones given for weeks costing less than 1/2 those amounts?   

The salespeople shouldn't be ragging on the resale market for their lost sales, they should go after their own in Corporate and say "give us some decent incentives to go with these high prices!"

I was happy to be the purchaser of several developer weeks because the incentives made me feel it was worth it.


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## hipslo (Mar 25, 2007)

Quilter said:


> The salespeople shouldn't be ragging on the resale market for their lost sales, they should go after their own in Corporate and say "give us some decent incentives to go with these high prices!"



Sounds great - so long as its not something like, oh I dont know, some sort of special vip status entitling retail purchasers to get first crack at certain types of reservations, or something else that would have a directly adverse effect on resale owners (including existing resale owners).   Though the consensus on this thread appears to be that MVCI has no interest in doing something like that, which would render the resale market so much less attractive. Perhaps, though that is at least slightly counterintuitive, to me at least. Time will tell I suppose.


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## PerryM (Mar 25, 2007)

*My Treo to the rescue...*

I must admit that I could not become a timeshare salesrep for a major developer – the rejection would have me guzzle down hoards of Margaritas at the end of each sales day.

*The national sales average is 1 in 7 sales tours becomes a sale.*  (6 out of 7 sales tours ends in failure)  I suspect for Marriott it’s probably 1 in 4 and for the super salesreps making $200k+ per year it’s probably just 1 in 2.

It’s just human nature to blame failure on something else – and the resale market is right up there with:

1)	I have a headache today
2)	I have a toothache today
3)	I have a hangover today
4)	My dog is sick today and I can’t focus
5)	I don’t own a timeshare and this is all Greek to me

I now use my Treo cell phone all the time – it has a full web browser and I’m constantly looking up things on Google.  Type in “Timeshare” and you will get 13.8 M links; TUG is #6 and all the reset are resale organizations.  I can do this while the salesrep starts asking “How much did you spend on that small hotel room you probably are staying at?”.

Our salesrep has reason to worry about resales – the consumer has awesome tools at their disposal that will make the 1 in 7 closure rate become much wider.

This weekend I had an appointment to get 4 new tires for one of our cars.  I got to the Freestone dealer at 10 AM and the place was mobbed with folks – I waited 15 minutes and the one clerk behind the counter said it would be 10 minutes or more before I could turn over my keys; I guessed much longer.

I whipped out the Treo and brought up Google Maps, typed in my zip code and then Firestone.  It gave me 10 of the closest stores with distance to them and their phone numbers.  I simply clicked the phone number of the nearest store and they said they had my tires and I could get in promptly.  I walked out the door and headed to the next Firestone which was 10 minutes away.

I can’t tell you how great that felt.

So to all salesreps that are poor at their sales job – there are alternatives to your incompetence.  You can blame my little Treo for your inability to compete all you want – you need to stop relying on ignorant consumers to make your sale.  We are getting smarter by the day.

Conclusion:
The next time a Marriott salesrep starts talking about resales and 24 day windows, just whip out the Treo and hold this thread up to their nose; trust me, that will be the highlight of your vacation.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 25, 2007)

PerryM said:


> The national sales average is 1 in 7 sales tours becomes a sale.[/B]  (6 out of 7 sales tours ends in failure)



I actually would have thought that the average would have been much lower. More like 1 in 30 tours results in a sale. Back when we toured Grande Vista in 2005, the van driver and sales rep got in to a conversation about one of the sales reps who had sold eight weeks to one buyer, they made it sound like the commission alone covered that rep for several months worth of income. If each rep completes 4-6 tours each day, then they would be turning a sale every other day.


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## Quilter (Mar 26, 2007)

hipslo said:


> Sounds great - so long as its not something like, oh I dont know, some sort of special vip status entitling retail purchasers to get first crack at certain types of reservations, or something else that would have a directly adverse effect on resale owners (including existing resale owners).   Though the consensus on this thread appears to be that MVCI has no interest in doing something like that, which would render the resale market so much less attractive. Perhaps, though that is at least slightly counterintuitive, to me at least. Time will tell I suppose.



I hope a Marriott lurker is keeping tabs on this thread.  Whether we are developer or resale owners WE ARE STILL MARRIOTT CUSTOMERS!  We pay maintenance fees, use Marriott Rewards Visas, stay at their hotels, tip their housekeepers, eat at their restaurants, pay lock-out and change fees. . .on and on.  If the company wants to be nasty by taking away perks they once said were available then we can just inform the press about "The NEW Marriott Way".

Bad publicity--it's their choice.


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## Dave M (Mar 26, 2007)

No need for lurkers to take notice. I think they are probably laughing at the silliness of this thread. See my post #43.


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## Quilter (Mar 26, 2007)

Dave M said:


> No need for lurkers to take notice. I think they are probably laughing at the silliness of this thread. See my post #43.



If they're laughing they might as well aim it at themselves.  Look at post #1 and see where it all originated--from their own salesperson.


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## Dave M (Mar 26, 2007)

TS salespeople are noted for saying whatever will induce the prospect to buy. Marriott's reps do so less than many other timeshare sales operations, but it's impossible to control every word that every employee spouts.

Thus, to criticize Marriott in spite of their high level denouncement of the statement reported by the OP seems a bit unfair to me.


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## PerryM (Mar 26, 2007)

*The solution is simple - a swift kick in the ankle*

Our last visit to the Maui Marriott had us get our 30,000 MRPs with a seasoned Marriott sales rep.  He actually owned units there and at another Marriott location (I can’t remember where).  The salesrep never lied or even got close to a white lie.  Our rep rented units out and had a nice side business going on it seemed.  This guy was good.

The first question I ask the salesrep is “Do you own a timeshare?”  It used to be about 90% of the reps did not, I’d put that at 80% now.  I’ve found that if a salesrep actually owns a timeshare they seem to be more honest and know a hell of a lot more than a rep who doesn’t own a timeshare.

If a timeshare salesrep owns at the resort he/she is selling that says a lot about the developer and the salesrep.  Also, the awards on the wall say a lot too.  Since we just want some info and MRPs I always pray that our rep can’t spell Marriott, it’s the professionals who don’t lie are the ones that worry me – my wife always is at the ready with a kick in the ankle if I start to weaken.


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## tatmtr7 (Mar 26, 2007)

Perry, we too usually tour just for the information and of course the POINTS, but how do you get 30,000 for one tour?  We tour as a couple even though we have our own reward accounts.  Thanks


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## Quilter (Mar 26, 2007)

Dave M said:


> TS salespeople are noted for saying whatever will induce the prospect to buy. Marriott's reps do so less than many other timeshare sales operations, but it's impossible to control every word that every employee spouts.
> 
> Thus, to criticize Marriott in spite of their high level denouncement of the statement reported by the OP seems a bit unfair to me.



The criticism was aimed at the incinuation that Marriott can laugh at it's customers for being concerned about a rumor started by one of their own.  

It's one thing for owners to speculate about "what ifs" that they dream up themselves.  It's another to speculate about "what ifs" that come from the sales team.  Rumors abound as to what Marriott will do with the pesky resale owners.   And the rumors are being generated by their own. 

Control everything?  No.  But they sure could do better controling rumors that sound close to threats to those even contemplating a resale purchase.  A resale purchase, mind you, that is totally legal.  Marriott even transferred the deed.  

I don't care how high the level was who issued the denouncement.  We're Marriott customers now but there's many other hospitality companys out there to deal with.  If they don't like that I have a difference of opinion just write me a letter and I'll be on my way.  

My next room might just be located between the elevator and dumpster.


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## TomF (Mar 26, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Our last visit to the Maui Marriott had us get our 30,000 MRPs with a seasoned Marriott sales rep.  He actually owned units there and at another Marriott location (I can’t remember where).  The salesrep never lied or even got close to a white lie.  Our rep rented units out and had a nice side business going on it seemed.  This guy was good.
> 
> The first question I ask the salesrep is “Do you own a timeshare?”  It used to be about 90% of the reps did not, I’d put that at 80% now.  I’ve found that if a salesrep actually owns a timeshare they seem to be more honest and know a hell of a lot more than a rep who doesn’t own a timeshare.
> 
> If a timeshare salesrep owns at the resort he/she is selling that says a lot about the developer and the salesrep.  Also, the awards on the wall say a lot too.  Since we just want some info and MRPs I always pray that our rep can’t spell Marriott, it’s the professionals who don’t lie are the ones that worry me – my wife always is at the ready with a kick in the ankle if I start to weaken.


I've never had a timeshare salesrep NOT tell me that they owned at that resort and/or that they own X number of timeshare weeks at various resorts.  (Check out my sig to see how long I've been doing this.) As always, just because the salesrep said that they owned there doesn't mean he hasn't lied yet again.  I've just always assumed that claiming to own at their resort or others is just another sales ploy to establish a rapport with a potential customer.  Maybe there should be a requirement like there is for TV commercial spokespersons.  They can't hawk the product if they don't use it themselves!


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## PerryM (Mar 26, 2007)

tatmtr7 said:


> Perry, we too usually tour just for the information and of course the POINTS, but how do you get 30,000 for one tour?  We tour as a couple even though we have our own reward accounts.  Thanks



Unless I'm confused (Which does happen) our last 2 Maui Marriott visits got us 30k MRPs each.


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## LAX Mom (Mar 27, 2007)

Ko'Olina sales presentation this past Jan........15,000 Marriott Reward Points!


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## swing4thefence (Mar 27, 2007)

Quilter said:


> My next room might just be located between the elevator and dumpster.



Better overlooking the dumpster than in the dumpster.:hysterical: :hysterical: 

It is important to remember that we are dealing with Marriott, not big brother.
Unless it's in writing the Salesperson DOES NOT SPEAK FOR MARRIOTT.


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## PerryM (Mar 27, 2007)

*15k points was correct*

Well, the published rate is 15k MRPs per visit when we were in Maui.  There was this mistake.........

So 15,000 MRP is the correct answer per sales tour when we've been in Maui.

Forget I even mentioned that other figure... I have.


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## Quilter (Mar 28, 2007)

swing4thefence said:


> Better overlooking the dumpster than in the dumpster.:hysterical: :hysterical:
> 
> Unless it's in writing the Salesperson DOES NOT SPEAK FOR MARRIOTT.



You're so cute    Time will tell, I have a reservation in Washington next week.  Booked a Marriott property for a "girlfriend reunion" and then will be spending nearly the rest of the month of April at Marriott properties. 

It's an easy out to say the salesperson does not speak for Marriott when it gets down to determining what promises are binding and which ones aren't.   However, when you're in front of a salesperson, that person is an ambassador for and represents Marriott.  They go through extensive training to be able to represent Marriott.  

We've attended tours and will probably attend others.  I hesitate to do so since I haven't found anyone I'd like to buy from other than the person we originally dealt with and who we've made all of our developer purchases through.  In our opinion he is the best of the best.  We wouldn't mind doing more business with him, but unfortunately, we think "what the market will bear" has surpassed our level of the market.  

I believe the use of any sort of scare tactics, such as the one mentioned by the OP, is ugly.   When we attend a tour we try to be courteous and straightforward with the person we're dealing with and give them a chance to present us with what they have to offer.  While we know a bit from TUG and having purchased on the resale market, we're not into turning the 90 minutes into a defensive one-ups-manship.  With all of the extensive training these people go through, and with all the ongoing memos to the sales force, I hope I never have to endure a moment of a salesperson telling me lies.  

Not one moment.


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## camachinist (Mar 28, 2007)

I can say, without hesitation, that the salesman and closer whom we purchased from at NCV in 2004 made no material misrepresentations about their product at all, nor did they make any inflated claims or use "fear tactics". I remember some confusion (on my part) about how the incentives (points) worked out but that was resolved to my satisfaction. I guess I'll have to attend another sales meeting/tour when there this year to see if anything has changed. I won't be surprised if it has, given other changes I've seen in Marriott, but I will be a bit disappointed. It's hard to recommend a business to others when I have reservations about their ethics myself. Let's hope my concerns are misplaced 

Pat


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## PerryM (Mar 28, 2007)

*The salesrep IS the developer!*



Quilter said:


> <snip>
> It's an easy out to say the salesperson does not speak for Marriott when it gets down to determining what promises are binding and which ones aren't.   However, when you're in front of a salesperson, that person is an ambassador for and represents Marriott.  They go through extensive training to be able to represent Marriott.



I agree with Quilter – the salesrep DOES speak for the developer!

I have no doubt that the developer knows what’s going on in the sales pitches – microphones the size of a match head can be put under a table to record what’s being said (illegal but so what else is new?).

We assume that we are being recorded when the salesrep goes off and “Speak with my manager” – they want to hear what we are really thinking.  This goes for car dealers too.

It would be very easy for Marriott to have shoppers drop by and rate the sales pitch.  We did this for the Bass Pro Shop in St. Louis – got paid some big bucks to do this and we turned in a detailed report – I simply had my cell phone set to record.  I recorded the complete 20 minute sales pitch and we played it back later and transcribed the sales pitch.  So at least Bass Pro Shops care about the timeshare sales pitch that goes on in their stores.


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## swing4thefence (Mar 28, 2007)

PerryM said:


> It would be very easy for Marriott to have shoppers drop by and rate the sales pitch.  We did this for the Bass Pro Shop in St. Louis – got paid some big bucks to do this and we turned in a detailed report – I simply had my cell phone set to record.  I recorded the complete 20 minute sales pitch and we played it back later and transcribed the sales pitch.  So at least Bass Pro Shops care about the timeshare sales pitch that goes on in their stores.



    
How does one get involved with that?


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## PerryM (Mar 28, 2007)

*Very professional by RCI!*



swing4thefence said:


> How does one get involved with that?



I believe it was announced here on TUG - my wife actually signed us up and believe it or not is handled by our lovable RCI in Indiana.  I don't know the actual details.

The screening process was rigorous and they wanted folks who really know timeshares and have been to a lot of them and to timeshare sales tours.  Bass Pro Shops paid the entire bill which was quite substantial for our services.  We played the typical Ma and Pa wondering around the store and stumbled upon the timeshare booth.

I believe we went thru 4 phone interviews and were given detailed checklists of things we were to do and not do.  We were compensated for our time.  We were debriefed and the entire process was quite professional.

So the developers can use this service which RCI makes available to all developers.  I don't know what other developers use their service - I suspect few.


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## m61376 (Mar 28, 2007)

From my limited experience (and from talking with a few friends who did buy directly from Marriott) it was not a case of a salesperson lying so much as inferring and not exactly telling the truth. Ac's were dubbed "bonus weeks" and we were told that for $199 you could go anywhere except Hawaii or Colorado over the next year. We were told that if we wanted 2 units in a given year we could easily just give II our 2 BR (we were looking at Ko'Olina at the time), get a "bonus week" to use anywhere else that year and the following year just reserve 2 2-BR units for the same week. Did the salesman lie- not exactly...did he leave out some salient details that makes the transaction that he outlined a bit iffy- absolutely. 

I discovered Tug before signing anything so it is no big deal. Others haven't been so lucky (which is why timesharing and timeshare salespeople get such a bad rep).


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