# [renting vs MF] While we're discussing things we don't understand...



## Luvstotravel (Mar 25, 2013)

I still consider myself fairly new to timesharing.  

I constantly read complaints here, from people who are bitter that the timeshare they own, could be rented, instead of owned, and the rental fees are less than the maintenance fees.  So, they're paying $$$ for a place that they could rent for $$.  We have 2 timeshares.  I don't want to say where they are, I want to keep what I hope you'll all agree are good deals to myself.  

One is a float week, and the fees are low, I think.  Have stayed the same for the 5 years we've owned it.  We can choose any week of the year.  There are only about 3 or 4 months that we DON'T really want to go there.  We pay our fees early enough to have plenty of selection of which week we'd like.  We bought it to go there, not to trade.   We have an option where we can stay there, with only 2 weeks notice, if there's any availability, for dirt-cheap rates, which we've done a few times.

We could book a room there for a week, if we didn't own there.  Our maintenance fees come to between $50-$70/night.  I checked their website, and I could book a room and pay 3x that per night.  If I'm not trading it with RCI or another company, I pay nothing but the maintenance fees-it's paid for completely.

The second one we own is also paid for, and the maintenance fees are twice as expensive.  It's a fixed week.  I checked their web site, and I could again book the room for the week that we own-for $265/night.  My fees have fluctuated a bit with this one, but the average fees come out to approximately $100-$125/night.  

So, it seems like both my timeshares are good deals.  We're very happy with them.  The best part, I think, is that we have to spend very little time planning.  Other than picking a week at the first one, we don't have to waste time tracking down the best price, comparing deals, checking reviews, etc.  

Am I missing something?  Did we just pick good timeshares?


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## DeniseM (Mar 25, 2013)

You should be checking the price to rent from another owner, or from an exchange company - it's usually a fraction of what the resort charges.  That's what people are talking about when they are talking about how renting is cheaper.


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## benyu2010 (Mar 25, 2013)

educated timeshare owners do not compare rack rates for saving, Only sales do. Happiness or bitterness is subjective and valuation is objective. The best thing about timeshare is the moment and memory it provides. I'm a newbie, too. I am happy of my developer purchase and more joyful of my resale deals all the good memories they have brought and will bring every year. Unless I lost my job and saving, and could not find a way of paying MF or unloading, I would not be bitter...


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## Luvstotravel (Mar 26, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> You should be checking the price to rent from another owner, or from an exchange company - it's usually a fraction of what the resort charges.  That's what people are talking about when they are talking about how renting is cheaper.



So, when a person says "renting is cheaper", is that after spending perhaps hours and hours poring over ads and sites to find a deal?  Ok, so I went to vrbo.com.  Found a similar condo as our second one, and the cheapest rental is _still _more expensive than my nightly rate.

I tried the town where our first one is, and the difference is even more obvious:  our timeshare is still a fraction of what owners are charging.  

Using a timeshare exchange means trying for last-minute deals, or no availability for mine.

I don't plan on wasting any more time trolling for better deals for these 2, but I'm curious:  if I want to go to other places where I can "rent cheaper than buying", where do these bitter owners find these deals?  I sure can't.


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## Luvstotravel (Mar 26, 2013)

benyu2010 said:


> educated timeshare owners do not compare rack rates for saving, Only sales do. Happiness or bitterness is subjective and valuation is objective. The best thing about timeshare is the moment and memory it provides. I'm a newbie, too. I am happy of my developer purchase and more joyful of my resale deals all the good memories they have brought and will bring every year. Unless I lost my job and saving, and could not find a way of paying MF or unloading, I would not be bitter...



That's a great attitude.  

This question has been bugging me for a long time, and I finally decided to find out what I'm missing.  It seems to me like I too, could spend hours and hours finding cheaper deals. Meanwhile, I enjoy knowing that there's a place I can return to, every year.  

Let other owners keep looking for ways that they think they've been "ripped off".  I'm going to keep looking for ways to enjoy my time at my timeshare!


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## glypnirsgirl (Mar 26, 2013)

I don't think you are missing anything. I think that you chose well and you are happy with your choice. And, you followed the first "rule" of timeshare ownership: "own where you want to stay."

I am happiest with the timeshare that I paid the most for. I purchased from the developer in 1994 and I regularly use my points. And when I don't use them, I rent them out for twice as much as the MFs. 

I am happy with all of my timeshare purchases. My family has had many great vacations that I would otherwise be unable to afford. 

Congratulations on your excellent choice!

elaine


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## Luvstotravel (Mar 26, 2013)

Thanks, Elaine. It still seems that many owners though, are saying they can rent cheaper than owning. I sure can't. Where are they finding these rentals so cheap?  I've tried rack rate, vrbo.com, and RCI. 

We've established that rack rate is expensive. In my opinion, vrbo isn't much cheaper. I've checked RCI's extra vacations, and my week at the fixed timeshare isn't available. We really, really like that week. A major holiday falls in that week, most years. 

I can find super-cheap deals for our floating timeshare, but they're all last-minute deals. Literally next week, or the week after!  I can not travel at such short notice. Where are owners seeing such cheap rentals?  I'd like to rent at other locations, and I also love a great price, but don't want to have to wait until the last-minute, or chance not finding any availability.


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## theo (Mar 26, 2013)

*Not criticizing or taking any sides, just observing "aloud"...*



Luvstotravel said:


> <snip> It still seems that many owners though, are saying they can rent cheaper than owning. I sure can't. Where are they finding these rentals so cheap?  I've tried rack rate, vrbo.com, and RCI. <snip> ...Where are owners seeing such cheap rentals?  I'd like to rent at other locations, and I also love a great price.



The "Rentals Offered" section right here on TUG has a maximum allowable price of $700 per week, albeit with maximum "45 days out" allowed. I know that a few of my own maintenance fees are that much --- and considerably more in several instances...

RedWeek and MyResortNetwork also often have rental listings for numbers right around the maintenance fee amount (...sometimes less), offered by owners who can't or don't want to use particular week(s) in a given year, and /or by owners who want to (...but can't) sell the advertised week and are just seeking to (...maybe) break even on their annual fees by renting the week(s) out  instead in the meantime.


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## timeos2 (Mar 26, 2013)

Luvstotravel said:


> Thanks, Elaine. It still seems that many owners though, are saying they can rent cheaper than owning. I sure can't. Where are they finding these rentals so cheap?  I've tried rack rate, vrbo.com, and RCI.
> 
> We've established that rack rate is expensive. In my opinion, vrbo isn't much cheaper. I've checked RCI's extra vacations, and my week at the fixed timeshare isn't available. We really, really like that week. A major holiday falls in that week, most years.
> 
> I can find super-cheap deals for our floating timeshare, but they're all last-minute deals. Literally next week, or the week after!  I can not travel at such short notice. Where are owners seeing such cheap rentals?  I'd like to rent at other locations, and I also love a great price, but don't want to have to wait until the last-minute, or chance not finding any availability.



I am among the strong proponents of renting - but not if you have a favorite resort / time you prefer. To try it out or for the occasional trip renting is far easier and often less expensive than owning or trading in. But especially if your use is prime time the nightly rate you will pay to plan a stay well in advance is usually far more than the average nightly rate for an owner. 

Owning to use is a strategy that is virtually guaranteed to mean a satisfied timeshare experience. Bought resale so the initial expense is usually reasonable and often attainable when you are ready to move on means the annual fees are almost the only ongoing costs (barring any special assessments) and you are assured of a resort you know you enjoy. 

We were multiple (9) week owners as we fell into the quite common situation where we liked an area, a system or resort and planned to return so we bought in. After finding the cost of all those fees and the need to schedule all that time - not to mention the ever increasing and frustrating exchange fees - we slowly cut back to just 2 ownerships we love to use. We now get our "trades" using rentals and it has worked out great. We can travel when we want and that lets us use off season or last minute discounts. But we also still search for and find prime times like school breaks and holidays. Even those are readily available at top resorts we had much harder times, not to mention more cost, trying to trade into. 

We remain believers in the timeshare system but feel a minimal ownership and selective renting returns the very best value for us. It may work for others but some will find their sweet spot with more ownership - some with less or none.  Finding what makes you happy and creates the best value is what it all comes down to in the end. Renting is one part, owning another - trades still another. Using a mix or owning everything you use - find what works and go for it.


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## ronparise (Mar 26, 2013)

I think it would be quite easy to rent for less than maintenance fees and I see two ways it can be done

1)  Find a so called mega renter and rent from them....I rent a number of the timeshare weeks I own and I make reservations with Wyndham points and rent them. My strategy is to make reservations at high demand times and at high demand locations; so called event weeks  and weekends. Examples are the Jazz Fest in New Orleans and of course Mardi Gras. Last year I made several reservations for the NCAA Final Four basketball games that were played in New Orleans....as well as the BCS championship game. This year I had several Superbowl reservations.   There are other examples, but you get the idea. I would guess every town and every resort has some weeks that a person could rent for far more than their maintenance fees. 

But the flip side of that is true too...Most weeks at most resorts are nothing special and I typically rent them for less than my maintenance fees, Consider Orlando. My fees for a 2 bedroom week at Bonnet Creek are over $1100 a week. Add a guest certificate for $100 and I have to charge a guest $1200 just to break even. Thats too much I think, In any case I cant do it... I would be happy to get $700.

At the end of the year I hope that my money makers made more than my money losers lost. But as you can probably imagine,  I rent a lot, for less than maintenance fees too

(Dont worry about the mega renters losing money. In the Wyndham system most get some sort of discount because of their VIP status. They can rent for less than maintenance fees and still make money)

2) The second source of low cost rentals are from folks that bought too many timeshares for their own use. Or perhaps an owners travel plans had to changeand they cant use the week they own...  Lets call them "the reluctant landlords" Either they are the victims of over eager timeshare salesmen or their travel habits have changed. In any case they have timeshares to rent and they are not profit motivated. They are happy to just get something toward their maintenance fees. And some of these folks get discounts too. so they are able to rent for less than a regular owners mf.. 

Check the ads on this and other timeshare forums and you will see ads from the so called mega renters and from regular guys where you can get vacation accommodations for less than mf


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## csxjohn (Mar 26, 2013)

Luvstotravel said:


> ... It still seems that many owners though, are saying they can rent cheaper than owning. I sure can't. Where are they finding these rentals so cheap?  I've tried rack rate, vrbo.com, and RCI.
> 
> ....



The complaints are not coming from people with desirable resorts that regularly rent for more than MFs.

The problems arise when you own a unit you are paying say $500 MFs a year.  You go to your resorts web site and look for rentals during your week and your size unit and see that you could rent it off the street for $350.

So I'd say you are looking at the problem many of us have from the wrong side of the street.  In the example I gave the numbers are very close to what I was experiencing in a unit I recently gave away.

You  bought well and are not in this situation.  I'm just trying to explain how it is for many of us.  Sure, we can't rent your unit for less than your MFs no matter how hard we look, but you could surely rent my former unit for less with just one visit to one web site, that of the resort itself.

That is is problem many of us face and why you read so much about it.


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## x3 skier (Mar 26, 2013)

I could rent my 12 weeks in Steamboat Springs during ski season and the week in London for more double my fees but I use them every year. The Raintree account I have no clue since I never bothered to check but I would almost certainly be below breakeven. The other 12 weeks in Steamboat, one week a month for every year, I leave in the hotel rental pool and average breakeven but get to use the excellent facilities while living in the other Steamboat units. 

So in my case, it all comes out in the wash, especially since I converted to Raintree 15. 

Life is good.

Cheers


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## Luvstotravel (Mar 26, 2013)

csxjohn said:


> The complaints are not coming from people with desirable resorts that regularly rent for more than MFs.
> 
> The problems arise when you own a unit you are paying say $500 MFs a year.  You go to your resorts web site and look for rentals during your week and your size unit and see that you could rent it off the street for $350...
> That is is problem many of us face and why you read so much about it.



So,  I spent some hours this morning, trying to find a week where I own, for less than my fees. I can find a rental at one of my timeshares, for the same week, and the same size, and yes it is less than our fees. I can either spend hours and hours looking all over the Internet for that deal, or it just isn't available, at most sites.

My time is worth more than that.  I'd rather pay extra to know that I don't have to spend hours looking for that "deal"!

Life IS good, isn't it?


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## Passepartout (Mar 26, 2013)

Luvstotravel said:


> Life IS good, isn't it?



Not perfect, but it sure beats the alternative!


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## VegasBella (Mar 26, 2013)

Luvstotravel said:


> My time is worth more than that.  I'd rather pay extra to know that I don't have to spend hours looking for that "deal"!



That's what it almost always comes down to in the end. You can pay with money or you can pay with time. It's up to you.


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## Luvstotravel (Mar 26, 2013)

theo said:


> The "Rentals Offered" section right here on TUG has a maximum allowable price of $700 per week, albeit with maximum "45 days out" allowed. I know that many of my own maintenance fees are that much --- and considerably more in several instances...



Once again I feel like I'm missing something painfully obvious. I looked at the Marketplace ads, and a great many rentals are over $700/week.  Is there another, secret marketplace?


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## csxjohn (Mar 26, 2013)

Luvstotravel said:


> So,  I spent some hours this morning, trying to find a week where I own, for less than my fees. I can find a rental at one of my timeshares, for the same week, and the same size, and yes it is less than our fees. I can either spend hours and hours looking all over the Internet for that deal, or it just isn't available, at most sites.
> 
> My time is worth more than that.  I'd rather pay extra to know that I don't have to spend hours looking for that "deal"!
> 
> Life IS good, isn't it?



I think you're missing my point.

Your TS is obviously in demand and it is a waste of time to try to find a deal that would cost less than your MFs.

We all did not buy as well as you did.

If you went to your resort's site and found you could rent your unit for $200 less than you pay for MFs, you too would be upset.

When I looked on my resorts site and found out how cheap the rental rate was compared to my MFs I immediately called to try to get them to take my deed back.  

No go.  Of course why would they when they have to rent the unit for less than some poor sucker of an owner (me) pays in MFs?  I then read all I could and did what I could and found someone who lives in the area that could take advantage of the day use privileges and gave it to her.

Looking for rentals for your unit won't show you what many of us are complaining about.

I laugh when I see the advice to never buy because it's cheaper to rent.  That may be true in many cases but try to find a beach unit in July for rent cheap.  Good luck with that.  That's why I just bought my unit at Tropic Shores that floats 50 weeks out of the year.  

If I want to go to Asheville NC in April, I'm pretty sure I can rent a unit for less than the owners pay in MFs.  I'm sure those owners are upset with that.

Comparing your apples to my lemons will not show you our frustration.


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## Rent_Share (Mar 26, 2013)

Last Minute Rentals

They're Chronological

http://tugbbs.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=45


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## Luvstotravel (Mar 26, 2013)

csxjohn said:


> I think you're missing my point.
> 
> Your TS is obviously in demand and it is a waste of time to try to find a deal that would cost less than your MFs.
> 
> ...



Thank you. I don't want anyone to think I'm rubbing salt in their wounds, I truly wondered if I was missing something. 


Rent_Share said:


> Last Minute Rentals
> 
> They're Chronological
> 
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=45


. Ahh!  Thank you!!  (Slapping my head in frustration)


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## DeniseM (Mar 26, 2013)

> My time is worth more than that. I'd rather pay extra to know that I don't have to spend hours looking for that "deal"!



Once you get a little experience looking at Ads, and knowing where to look, you can survey the available rentals for your dates in 10 min., because they are almost always listed by date.  It doesn't have to become a big job, unless you just enjoy browsing.  

VRBO is mainly for full-ownership vacation rentals, and not the best place for timeshare rentals.

I like TUG and www.redweek.com, because ALL advertisers must be paid and registered, which eliminates most of the scammers.  Craigslist is a good source for the brave of heart.  

However, at the most popular high end resorts (Disney, Hyatt, Marriott, Hilton, Starwood) you will seldom find rental rates that are less than maintenance fees.  At the high end resorts, rentals can be profitable.


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 26, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> ...However, at the most popular high end resorts (Disney, Hyatt, Marriott, Hilton, Starwood) you will seldom find rental rates that are less than maintenance fees.  At the high end resorts, rentals can be profitable.



While this is true, there are MANY other profitable rental resorts, places and times of the year.

March in PHX - Spring Training baseball, religous holiday season, school/college spring breaks, great golf time and a HOST of grandparents. 

Late June, all of July and Early August - if the resort is within sight of the Atlantic Ocean or the Gulf of Mexico.

Key West - except in Hurricane season.

Washington DC - July 4th week, Jan 20 week every 4 years, Late June- early August.

Some not very good resort locales or situations:
Las Vegas, Orlando, most buildings who were small motel rooms built before 1980, Branson, Nashville, Williamsburg, any beach location when the HIGH temperture is below 50 degrees, mud season in ski areas, resorts who have not changed the bedspreads in the last 5 years, etc. More than 75 miles from an airport with jets and at least 2 commerical airlines.

Just my humble rumblings ...

Added: if you are looking to buy in a very seasonal area, buy a FIXED WEEK verses a FLOAT week in Prime season. The RED-RED weeks are where the demand is, but the original developer needed to sell all 50+ weeks. The month of July at the beach is 4 weeks long, but Prime summer season was sold as  Last 2 weeks of MAY, JUNE & JULY & AUGUST & first 2 weeks of SEPT ( or Memorial Day thru Labor Day). I rather have the idea that Week 27 is mostly July 4th week,  but I know it will be a warm time with the leaves on the trees.


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## pacodemountainside (Mar 26, 2013)

Well put Linda.

For daily consumables one   cannot beat going to WalMart with its price match or Costco  if a large krewe. The savings in time from knowing way around store and savings in gas is a no  brainier.  

When spending thousands plus and making long term commitment then behooves one to  do home work preferably with  unbiased  expert advice be it a car, TS, home, insurance, stock,  mutual fund,  boat,  motor home,  etc.


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## JudyS (Mar 27, 2013)

If you want to see some weeks that rent for less than the MFs, take a look at RCI's or II's rentals, and then ask yourself how much the owners are paying in MFs. There are Marriott two-bedrooms on II that cost less than $500 to rent, and those weeks have MFs of $1000+. (There are probably some non-name brand resorts where the difference between the MFs and the rental rates are even greater.)



Luvstotravel said:


> ...  We have 2 timeshares.  I don't want to say where they are, I want to keep what I hope you'll all agree are good deals to myself. ...


I think we could answer your question better if you would say where you own. Since you already own your weeks, and bought them to use yourself, what "good deals" would you lose by saying where you own? 

I'm also curious about how much you spent for your weeks, even if you don't want to say where they are. Generally, weeks that rent for much more than the MFs cost real money, even on the resale market. 

There are a lot of timeshare weeks that rent for less than the MFs because they are in the off-season or in overbuilt areas. Before the economic downturn, it was often possible to give one of these weeks away to someone who wanted to get into timesharing at a low cost. Now, a *lot *of owners are stuck with these weeks. Also, for various reasons it has become more difficult and more expensive to exchange a week through II or RCI, and that makes it harder to give low-season weeks away, too.


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## ronparise (Mar 27, 2013)

Luvstotravel said:


> Once again I feel like I'm missing something painfully obvious. I looked at the Marketplace ads, and a great many rentals are over $700/week.  Is there another, secret marketplace?



So there are rentals at $700 a week, Do you know what the mf is at these resorts?  I suspect  thats a fact thats missing from your analysis

A two bedroom at the older Wyndham resorts is 154000 points which at my cost is $770 and if I rent one of these will cost an additional $100 guest confirmation...so I need to rent at $900 a week to break even

As CXJohn said..we can find examples all day of weeks that will rent for more than mf. I own several that Im able to rent for 3 and 4 times mf, but I own others where I struggle to break even and still others where Im happy to get anything...and Im pretty good at this. If you look you will see my ad in the market place where I offer rentals at less than my mf. Theres one there pretty much all the time

Again to repeat what CSXJohn said,  you wont here the folks like you that "bought right" complaining, and you wont hear me complaining either, but for every good rental where you can make some money there are several where you cant. and its  owners of these weeks that you hear complaining and these are the folks that will rent to you for less than mf. 

There are ads in the last minute rentals thread where you can get perfectly good resorts and a wonderful vacation experience for under $100 a night


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## VegasBella (Mar 27, 2013)

pacodemountainside said:


> When spending thousands plus and making long term commitment then behooves one to  do home work preferably with  unbiased  expert advice be it a car, TS, home, insurance, stock,  mutual fund,  boat,  motor home,  etc.


where do you find UNbiased EXPERT advice on timeshares? Serious question.


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 27, 2013)

VegasBella said:


> where do you find UNbiased EXPERT advice on timeshares? Serious question.



If I ain't selling you a timeshare, I own more than 10, I have been doing this longer than 5 years, I rent enough to clear my MFs, I talk about repositioning my portfolio (TS ownership), have a plan of ownership (limited area, resorts) and clearly am an expert on a niche ==>

I am mostly an expert and you can figure out if I have a biased opinion by reading 100+ of my older and varied posts & threads.

But you have to work at YOUR knowledge base and KNOW what you and your family LIKE and how you all vacation during the year. You ain't me and I can't walk in your family shoes.


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## ronparise (Mar 27, 2013)

VegasBella said:


> where do you find UNbiased EXPERT advice on timeshares? Serious question.



Right here on TUG


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## Rent_Share (Mar 27, 2013)

IMHO most people on Tug are BIASED *EXPERTS* as to what they eventually bought resale.

As well as EXPERTS ON WHAT they have divested

A new user has to balance all of the those biased opinions


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## Beefnot (Mar 27, 2013)

VegasBella said:


> where do you find UNbiased EXPERT advice on timeshares? Serious question.





ronparise said:


> Right here on TUG





Rent_Share said:


> IMHO most people on Tug are BIASED *EXPERTS* as to what they eventually bought resale.
> 
> As well as EXPERTS ON WHAT they have divested
> 
> A new user has to balance all of the those biased opinions



There is probably no such thing as a truly unbiased expert, but as ronparise and Rent_Share point out, there is much expert advice on TUG.  

There are many experts on TUG who will hammer "only buy where you want to go" into you until capitulate, others who will argue to only buy where rent is more than MFs, or others who assert that buying to exchange more cheaply than owning or renting is the way to go, among a myriad of other opinions.  Who is right?  There are pros and cons to everything.  We just have to evaluate the facts presented, and try to sift through the biases and make the best go if it we can.


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## DeniseM (Mar 27, 2013)

An important thing to remember with timesharing is that there is no "one-size-fits-all."  It's like asking what's the best flavor of ice cream or what's the best car to buy.  There is no correct answer, because everyone has different wants, needs, and incomes.  

Some people love to timeshare on the cheap and see how much they can get for their dollar (me!)  Others are quite proud of their Elite Status with the resort system they own, and were only to happy to shell out the big bucks to achieve that status.

Some people love big fancy resorts with all the bells and whistles and the status of owning there.  Some people are looking for THE view.  Others like a private condo experience.  Some are looking for nature, and others for high end shopping and night life, and still others for kid venues.

So it is virtually impossible to post a "definitive" answer about anything (except a few things like scams) because most of buying a timeshare is a matter of personal preference - not unbiased facts.


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## pacodemountainside (Mar 27, 2013)

*Unbiased Expert*



VegasBella said:


> where do you find UNbiased EXPERT advice on timeshares? Serious question.




Let's start with what Webster has to say!

Definition of BIAS
1

: a line diagonal to the grain of a fabric; especially : a line at a 45 degree angle to the selvage often utilized in the cutting of garments for smoother fit 


2

a : a peculiarity in the shape of a bowl that causes it to swerve when rolled on the green in lawn bowling 

b : the tendency of a bowl to swerve; also : the impulse causing this tendency 

c : the swerve of the bowl 

3

a : bent, tendency 

b : an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment : prejudice 

c : an instance of such prejudice 

d (1) : deviation of the expected value of a statistical estimate from the quantity it estimates (2) : systematic error introduced into sampling or testing by selecting or encouraging one outcome or answer over others 

4

a : a voltage applied to a device (as a transistor control electrode) to establish a reference level for operation 

b : a high-frequency voltage combined with an audio signal to reduce distortion in tape recording



Now Law Dictionary for "expert"  definition:



One having special knowledge not normally possessed by average person   derived  from study, education, experience , observation, etc.



I would say Florida AG, BBBs, personal finance advice columns in WSJ, Denver Post, etc. Money Magazine, Consumers Reports, etc. would qualify! In fact IMO they tend to hedge saying do  your homework  not  beware of pick pockets.

I would also include many TUG posters who based on their personal  experience, education, reading,  research, etc. are in a position to provide great information. I certainly agree there is a line   between   rational reasoning and becoming a fanatic.

I really don't think my opinion based on many personal experiences, research, being an active member of this Forum make me biased. My belief that most TS Developers are scammers and resellers should be boiled in oil are based on facts not that I dislike or have prejudice against certain people.

Like if one wants unbiased investment advice they will get from a fee paid   financial nplanner while a commission based one has to sell something to pay his bill!

I would bet the farm if TS people were salaried and could really only sell fairly priced  TSs to people who could afford and receive full bang for a buck vs starving commission hungry sales weasels who have to get the rent money any way they can short of robbing a bank, there would not be a problem.


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 4, 2013)

Luvstotravel -
I do not come to this forum often, but happened to see this.

I truly do not understand your reasoning for not sharing the specifics of the TS you own - without this info, trying to help/guide you is essentially useless.  If you already own, then you do not have to worry about someone stealing it away from you - and if it is truly the 'bargain' claimed - then this would only enhance the value of your TS. There is no downside other than not confirm the opinion you have already made (and defended).

So you withholding this info for the reasons you give in your 1st post makes absolutely no sense to me if you are looking for expert opinion, because you will only get advice that you want to hear and confirm your opinion, and dismiss the rest (human nature...).

One truth is... Experts on TUG are all biased (including me), and novices are uninformed (including me).


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## Beefnot (Apr 5, 2013)

I think she has a winter Vermont ski week and a summer Williamsburg week or something like that.


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## theo (Apr 5, 2013)

*My $0.02 worth...*



VegasBella said:


> where do you find UNbiased EXPERT advice on timeshares? Serious question.



"Unbiased" is truly a difficult criterion to *ever* meet in the (...often very strange) timeshare arena, since almost everyone has their own ideas, personal preferences, mindsets and orientations, based in large part upon their own personal experiences (...or, in some instances, on hidden personal or commercial agendas).

I'm always suspicious of alleged "experts" (...at least outside of the courtroom, where any claims of being an "expert" are always subject to open and intensive scrutiny). On the Internet, however.....not so much. 

Anyway, IMnsHO, in the strange world of timeshare the best course is to weigh and assess any and all "input" with a grain of salt, acknowledging that personal opinion or agenda is sometimes misrepresented as indisputable fact --- and realizing that *no one* is always "right" and that *no one* is truly an "expert". 

Certainly, the TUG community represents a whole lot of collective experience, but on TUG and / or elsewhere, I'd advise always being mindful of the very big difference between "experienced" and "expert".


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 5, 2013)

Luvstotravel said:


> I still consider myself fairly new to timesharing.
> 
> I constantly read complaints here, from people who are bitter that the timeshare they own, could be rented, instead of owned, and the rental fees are less than the maintenance fees.  So, they're paying $$$ for a place that they could rent for $$.  We have 2 timeshares.  *I don't want to say where they are, I want to keep what I hope you'll all agree are good deals to myself.  *
> 
> ...



So let me get this straight - you want everyone else on TUG to share information with you and to tell you the best deals and how to rent for lower than annual dues, BUT you want to keep YOUR own personal deal all to yourself???

Gee....that sounds pretty selfish to me....just sayin.





DavidnRobin said:


> I truly do not understand your reasoning for not sharing the specifics of the TS you own - without this info, trying to help/guide you is essentially useless.  If you already own, then you do not have to worry about someone stealing it away from you - and if it is truly the 'bargain' claimed - then this would only enhance the value of your TS. There is no downside other than not confirm the opinion you have already made (and defended).
> 
> So you withholding this info for the reasons you give in your 1st post makes absolutely no sense to me if you are looking for expert opinion, because you will only get advice that you want to hear and confirm your opinion, and dismiss the rest (human nature...).
> 
> One truth is... Experts on TUG are all biased (including me), and novices are uninformed (including me).



^^^^ I 100% agree...well said. 

The OP sounds pretty selfish to me and this tread should probably be closed.


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## VegasBella (Apr 5, 2013)

Wow to the comments above. My impression was just that the OP felt their TS was a good deal and was wondering why the default TUG advice almost always seems to be so negative and pessimistic, as though actual good deals don't exist. 

"Rescind, rescind!" is great advice for most new TS owners (who paid tens of thousands for offseason weeks at destinations they'll rarely return to) but it's kind of the TUG default. I posted a thread asking for people's opinions on a resale I bought and some tuggers who had no specific knowledge about the property, management company, etc gave that default advice. One even gave me unsolicited relationship advice. Very little of the advice seemed to come from a compassionate 'people helping people' place in their hearts, rather most of it felt like generic negativity. 

There's a definite bad vibe on these boards wherein a lot of people are suspicious and pessimistic and negative. Some here are particularly helpful by answering specific questions and providing useful info but some just like to whine. A lot.


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 5, 2013)

VegasBella said:


> Wow to the comments above. My impression was just that the OP felt their TS was a good deal and was wondering why the default TUG advice almost always seems to be so negative and pessimistic, as though actual good deals don't exist.
> 
> "Rescind, rescind!" is great advice for most new TS owners (who paid tens of thousands for offseason weeks at destinations they'll rarely return to) but it's kind of the TUG default. I posted a thread asking for people's opinions on a resale I bought and some tuggers who had no specific knowledge about the property, management company, etc gave that default advice. One even gave me unsolicited relationship advice. Very little of the advice seemed to come from a compassionate 'people helping people' place in their hearts, rather most of it felt like generic negativity.
> 
> There's a definite bad vibe on these boards wherein a lot of people are suspicious and pessimistic and negative. Some here are particularly helpful by answering specific questions and providing useful info but some just like to whine. A lot.



I am going to disagree (respectfully) - my point is that without adequate information, advice is incomplete as to be useless.  This is not the only poster that suffers from this.  In this case, there is zero harm in sharing the details so pro/con advice can be given.  Otherwise, human nature is to justify the purchase - which in the long run may be harmful.

I do not know if it is good or not - being able to rent to cover MFs is not the only determining factor in whether or not the TS week in question is a good/bad/neutal 'deal'.  Also, importantly, it is not a one-size-fits-all situation.  You could not pay me to go to certain resorts that others find valuable (and visa-versa).

But unless the OP wants to hear - "Wow! what a great TS and you sure got yourself a real bargain" - how can anyone really say one way or another with zero info (other than they can supposedly cover rent).  I agree - if you want a love circle singing 'Kumbaya' - TUG is not the place (nor should it be IMO) - a church would be a better place where faith/compassion plays a larger role.


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## Htoo0 (Apr 5, 2013)

I'm sure there are some good timeshare deals out there but 5 years isn't really enough time to judge. We loved ours for years even though we paid full freight. The price was actually cheap and so were the MF's. Eventually however, there were special assessments and MF's more than doubled. 15 years later resale prices are pretty much give-a-way and you can rent for MF's or less. But we love going and it is still a nice resort so we hang onto it. There are a lot of similar stories around and I would guess they are in the majority. I'm glad the OP and others love everything about the deals they have and I certainly don't get the impression most TUGGER's are unhappy with their choices. But I can definitely understand why many recommend not to pay developer prices, to rent first and do their homework before committing to actually owning.


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## VegasBella (Apr 5, 2013)

I'm not sure what the OP's intention is but I assumed the thread was about discussing how to evaluate a timeshare's value. The OP said:



Luvstotravel said:


> *I constantly read complaints here, from people who are bitter *that the timeshare they own, could be rented, instead of owned, and the rental fees are less than the maintenance fees.  [...]
> 
> it seems like both my timeshares are good deals.  *We're very happy *with them.  *The best part, I think, is that we have to spend very little time planning.  *Other than picking a week at the first one, we don't have to waste time tracking down the best price, comparing deals, checking reviews, etc.
> 
> Am I missing something?  Did we just pick good timeshares?



My interpretation is that the OP feels that their timeshares are valuable for two reasons:
- the MF is cheaper than renting directly from the resort 
- very little time spent planning those vacations

*To me, it seems that the OP is curious as to how others would evaluate a timeshare's worth. *

I don't think it's necessary for the OP to share what they own if they don't want to (some people are just more private than others). S/he may be cognizant that if they share the details the bubble might be burst and they won't be as happy with their timeshare... and that's OK._ It really is OK for some people to choose to live in a little financial denial_ (so long as it's not harming their longterm financial health). We all make poor financial decisions from time to time, but if we can afford it and it makes us happy, which it clearly does for the OP then what's the harm?

Anyway, it looks like the OP isn't going to share the details so why not turn the discussion into how to evaluate a timeshare? Why not discuss _something _rather than just be annoyed the OP isn't posting more info?


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## benyu2010 (Apr 5, 2013)

I think paint the members' opinion with one broad brush is not necessary, nor waranted. Folks come from all walks of life with diverse background and life experience. if there is a consensus among such group, such as 'R, R D P' then it must be some truth in it. Saying a developer purchase a bad deal is stating the truth. Why speaking the truth taken as negative tone, unless you find merits of developer purchase over resale?!


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## Beefnot (Apr 6, 2013)

VegasBella said:


> I'm not sure what the OP's intention is but I assumed the thread was about discussing how to evaluate a timeshare's value. The OP said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The OP asked a question:



> Am I missing something? Did we just pick good timeshares?



That to me is not asking how to evaluate a timeshare's worth. It is more along the lines of wanting validation for a self-congratulatory sentiment. If OP is not willing to reveal her ownerships, it is difficult to properly answer the question. If instead her question was rhetorical, then we can say "good for you" and send her on her way.

I completely understand one keeping one's ownerships to themselves. I do that, though I have pretty much given away where I own. However, I don't then start a thread seeking corroboration of what I feel were some fantastic purchases. I simply state as much with no questions


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## DeniseM (Apr 6, 2013)

I don't think Tuggers are negative - I think they are realists.  

Timesharing is a double-edged sword, and it would be a disservice to newbies if all we did was to paint a rosy picture.  

However, quite a few new posters come to TUG wanting to be told that they made a good decision, and they really don't want to hear the pros and cons.


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## VegasBella (Apr 7, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> I don't think Tuggers are negative - I think they are realists.
> 
> Timesharing is a double-edged sword, and it would be a disservice to newbies if all we did was to paint a rosy picture.
> 
> However, quite a few new posters come to TUG wanting to be told that they made a good decision, and they really don't want to hear the pros and cons.


Again...

Regardless of the OP's intent/ motive in starting this thread, there's no good reason to make the entire thread a complaint that can't be resolved. It's clear that the OP isn't coming back anytime soon to answer questions about which TS they own so tuggers should probably just drop it. Continuing to complain that many TS owners live in denial and wear rose-colored glasses is futile; it's 100% negative.

Rather than whine that the OP isn't posting more info, why not turn the discussion into something useful? I suggest discussing methods of evaluating a timeshare's economic value. That is, afterall, the direction the discussion would go if the OP shared the info about what resorts they own.


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## DeniseM (Apr 7, 2013)

VegasBella - Maybe TUG just isn't your cup of tea.  Although you have only been here a month, you are already advising people with *years of experience in timesharing* about how and what they should post.  That's probably not the best way to make friends and develop a good reputation as a newbie.

You also missed the point of the first question:  It's not about the economic value of a timeshare. The question was specifically about *renting vs owning*.  The OP wanted to know why so many people claim that *it's often cheaper to rent a timeshare, than to buy a timeshare*.  

Then she proceeded to tell us she was comparing prices on the resort's own website.  That's NOT the place to look for a low-priced rental, but without knowing what she owns, we can't provide an accurate response to her question.

That's like saying, "I bought a car, and I'm really happy with the car and the price, but I heard I could have leased it cheaper, but I'm not going to tell you what kind of car, or what I paid for it, or what it costs to lease it.  Do you think I got a good deal?" 

No one is "whining" here, and I can assure you that your repeated use of the word is not doing you any good on TUG.


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## bogey21 (Apr 7, 2013)

timeos2 said:


> Owning to use is a strategy that is virtually guaranteed to mean a satisfied timeshare experience. Bought resale so the initial expense is usually reasonable and often attainable when you are ready to move on means the annual fees are almost the only ongoing costs (barring any special assessments) and you are assured of a resort you know you enjoy.



This is pretty much what I figured out after a lot of forays into TS Ownership.  I ended up owning Fixed Weeks at Resorts that appealed to me for many different reasons:  a NASCAR race, horse racing, gambling, the beach, skiing, etc.  Knowing that I owned at HOA controlled Resorts (with reasonable MFs) convenient to these activities at a cost less than renting was a real plus.

George


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## VegasBella (Apr 7, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> VegasBella - Maybe TUG just isn't your cup of tea.  Although you have only been here a month, you are already advising people with *years of experience in timesharing* about how and what they should post.  That's probably not the best way to make friends and develop a good reputation as a newbie.


First off I'm not a member of this board to "make friends and develop a good reputation." I'm a member of this board to learn about timeshares and share what I've already learned with others. I strongly value open, honest communication. *I think transparency is the best way to make any industry less scandalous, more fair and equitable*. Those are my values.

But I don't need "timeshare friends" or a "good reputation on a timeshare forum." That literally has zero value to me. Those are your values that you're projecting onto me.

I believe your reaction here has more to do with our previous interactions than any of the content of my comments above. 

You and I had a negative interaction here on this board when:
- You wrongly assumed I had never lurked on TUG before posting.
- You wrongly assumed I wasn't a paid TUG member and that I hadn't researched the resort database.
- You gave me advice on my resale purchase of a timeshare of which you had no knowledge. Your advice was unhelpful because you were ignorant about the timeshare I was asking about. Instead of trying to answer any of my questions or provide me with useful info you said, and I quote: "too many unknowns".
Here is the thread: http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189251




DeniseM said:


> You also missed the point of the first question:  It's not about the economic value of a timeshare. The question was about *renting vs owning*.  The OP wanted to know why so many people claim that *it's often cheaper to rent a timeshare, than to buy a timeshare*.


That's just your interpretation. Seeing as how you misinterpreted my posts in other threads I don't think it's unreasonable to assume you might also misread some other people's posts from time to time.

I'll grant that my interpretaion might be wrong. But for the third time, I say what does it matter? If the OP won't share the details, why continue that line of discussion? Why not talk about something else?



DeniseM said:


> but without knowing what she owns, we can't provide an accurate response.


If that's your interpretation then why respond at all? I just don't get it. 
Send her a PM and ask her to chime in. Or just ignore the thread. But demanding that she share info she doesn't want to share is like banging your head against the wall. There's NO POINT. It's stupid and futile.

On the point of evaluating a timeshare's economic value I like this link to a spreadsheet (although you have to change the info in the yellow section for it to be helpful): http://www.tug2.net/advice/Timeshare_Ownership_Cost_Comparison.xls

When I evaluated the timeshares I was interested in buying I not only compared the cost of renting at that same resort, I also compared the cost of renting at nearby hotels/motels.


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 7, 2013)

"Demanding" - LOL - seriously.  Perhaps listening (reading comprehension) to what people are trying to politely tell you - if you choose not to accept that is on you.

All anyone is trying to say repeatedly to the OP is that without forthcoming info, no one will be able to accurately give feedback - this is true in many aspects of life.

btw - I do rent and do pay MFs - and I do not delude myself in those are the only indicators of my TS value - as it is multi-factorial and individualistic.  But I would certainly not come here and ask an open ended question w/o adequate info unless I was trying to justify my decision which is exactly the goal of a TS salespeople.

TUG exists for this very reason - perhaps after reading and listening for a bit - you will find TUG useful - we can only hope so.

Good luck.


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## JudyS (Apr 7, 2013)

VegasBella, I think what you are missing here is that the Original Poster came across as bragging. Now, I have no idea if that's what she intended to do, but that's how it came across to me and I suspect to a lot of other Tug members, too.

Due to the terrible economy of the past few years, many timeshare owners are stuck with weeks that are less than valueless -- they can't rent the weeks for the MFs, they can't give the weeks away, and they can't walk away without facing a huge hit to their credit rating and and possible legal action. 

Although most TUG members are very timeshare-savvy, the huge problems facing the timeshare industry have hit Tug members hard, too. Many of us here are struggling with weeks that we can't get rid of and can't rent for the MFs.

The Original Poster presumably knew that because she's been a member here for 18 months and has over 100 posts. Yet, she posts about how _her _ timeshares are so good and seemingly looks down on people who are stuck with things they don't want, calling such Tug members "bitter." Then, as the icing on the cake, she refuses to say where these good deals are. Perhaps this isn't how the OP meant to come across, but she rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. That is what's prompting the responses to her. 

Speaking of rubbing people the wrong way: when you first showed up here, you had questions about what to buy. That is fine -- that is what TUG is for. A lot of people here, including me, took time to set out your options and give you advice. It seems you took some of this advice and are now buying two SoCal weeks. That's fine, too. But for the past few weeks, you've spent most of your time here criticizing and belittling other members. And when that's pointed out to you, you say "making friends" has "zero value" to you. 

Well, guess what? This is a private forum. It's not like the Constitution gives you an inalienable right to come here and say TUG members are "suspicious, pessimistic, negative whiners" and that what they are doing is "stupid and futile." I can't speak for Denise, but I suspect her recent posts are intended to subtly warn you that you're about to be asked to leave. Personally, I'm willing to reimburse your $15 TUG member fee if you'll just go away.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 7, 2013)

Personalities who are "HOSTILE" or "SELF CENTERED" or "totally one-sided" remind me people who never visited the same small town diner more than twice. 

Why? Because small town waitresses REMEMBER the rude and self-centered who leave nothing.  

TUG is very much like a diner ... 

IGNORE button, please.


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## Timeshare Von (Apr 7, 2013)

Value is in the eyes of the beholder and not the peanut gallery!

I own a nice little TS in the Waikiki area of Honolulu.  MFs are now $455/year (they were only $289 when I bought it back in 2003).  I have stayed there often, rented quite a bit . . . and through 2015, have used it to barter week for week for four weeks of RV trade in Alaska.

Considering how much flexibility and use we've gotten out of this little gem, we're very happy even though some say the would not own there if it were given to them.  I don't get it . . . so to each their own.


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## Beefnot (Apr 8, 2013)

In some ways I can sympathize with VegasBella. My driving motivation was not necessarily to make friends.  Because I hate letting BS walk and because there are some TUGgers who get on my last good nerve with their attitudes or lecturing and whatnot, I find it difficult to bite my fingers tongue, and thus I do not enjoy the good graces of many.  That being said, a few other comments.

Although DeniseM can be a bit heavy-handed with her comments (which can take some getting used to), I think VegasBella was a bit skinsitive in her other thread when DeniseM rightly called her out for not doing her due diligence prior to her purchase.  Now, VegasBella may have stumbled into what may end up being a great purchase, but not because she had spent enough time researching.

Also, like I said, lord knows I've got into with folks over attitudes and lecturing.  However in this thread, I believe many of the responses were warranted for reasons previously stated by myself and others.

I hope VegasBella does not go away as JudyS stated, but that she try to be a little more holistic in her analysis of responses to a situation.


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## Laurie (Apr 11, 2013)

On the topic of whether it's cheaper to rent or own: I own only to trade, because I love to travel, not revisit the same place year after year. On the few occasions I do revisit the same location, I prefer to experience a different resort.

So for me, I have to add $200 to the MF, RCI's exchange fee - not to mention RCI membership costs ... and special assessments ... and cancelled confirmation losses ... etc.  So you can't just compare MF with rental rate.

However I'm still a fairly satisfied long-term multi-week owner, for lots of reasons:

1. I can often get multiple exchanges out of one ownership. 

2. We end up going more places and for longer periods of time - use it or lose it. This includes locations we've always dreamed of, as well as ones that hadn't even occurred to us or we'd never even heard of. We've now gone on at least 20 or 30 what most people would call "vacations of a lifetime" - how lucky are we?  We *never* would have done that (or been able to do that) without owning timeshares to trade.

In some cases the costs may average out to be about equal to renting at this point, certainly the difference has narrowed over the years. We don't always use timeshares. But the benefits (including financial) are still there for us, even with the exchange fees etc added in.


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## theo (Apr 11, 2013)

*A follow up question to a well-stated position...*



Laurie said:


> On the topic of whether it's cheaper to rent or own: I own only to trade, because I love to travel, not revisit the same place year after year. On the few occasions I do revisit the same location, I prefer to experience a different resort.
> 
> So for me, I have to add $200 to the MF, RCI's exchange fee - not to mention RCI membership costs ... and special assessments ... and cancelled confirmation losses ... etc.  So you can't just compare MF with rental rate.
> 
> ...



This is certainly a very well articulated and supported case and position. Thank you; much appreciated.

As a "non-exchanging" owner, I'm now prompted to wonder (...and overtly ask) how (...or if) your success rate and satisfaction has changed, specifically in the very recent past few years in which RCI has adopted its' "TPU" valuation system?

Just curious...


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## gnorth16 (Apr 11, 2013)

There once was a man who wanted his portfolio looked at and went into see an investment adviser.  When the adviser asked to see his investment portfolio, he passed him a paper that said 10000 shares in an oil company, 20000 shares in a bank and 30000 shares in a foreign multi-national.  The adviser asked for more information, but the man said he didn't want to give away any of his investment secrets...


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## theo (Apr 11, 2013)

*Howzzat???*



gnorth16 said:


> There once was a man who wanted his portfolio looked at and went into see an investment adviser.  When the adviser asked to see his investment portfolio, he passed him a paper that said 10000 shares in an oil company, 20000 shares in a bank and 30000 shares in a foreign multi-national.  The adviser asked for more information, but the man said he didn't want to give away any of his investment secrets...



An amusing anecdote certainly, but completely irrelevant and not applicable in any way to my question...

I don't exchange and I don't plan to in the future. I use what I own and I enjoy doing so. I don't belong to any exchange companies either, nor do I plan to do so in the future.  I didn't ask (...and I don't care a whit) what was traded out of and / or into.  Maybe I just didn't pose my question well, so I'll try it once again...

You (Laurie) have reported satisfaction and success in the past with exchanging. That's great and I'm happy for you. I am not asking (and I don't care) what you have ever exchanged out of and / or into. My question is very simple and very general, requesting *no* identification of *any* specifics regarding *any* exchanges. 
Are you O.K. with that (unnecessary) clarification, gnorth16? Good. Then here we go now....once again:

*Since RCI adopted it's new "TPU" valuation system a few years ago, has your level of "exchanging" success and satisfaction perceptibly changed for you --- for better or worse, or not at all?* 

Just (...still) curious.


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## DeniseM (Apr 11, 2013)

theo said:


> An amusing anecdote certainly, but completely irrelevant and not applicable in any way to my question...



I think gnorth's comment is directed to the OP...


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## Laurie (Apr 11, 2013)

theo said:


> As a "non-exchanging" owner, I'm now prompted to wonder (...and overtly ask) how (...or if) your success rate and satisfaction has changed, specifically in the very recent past few years in which RCI has adopted its' "TPU" valuation system?


Pre-TPU I was already pretty satisfied, happy and "successful", but had to sell and buy a few ownerships to get there. 

Since then I prefer the TPU system, because I can choose to get more than 1 exchange out of a deposit, whether a whole 'nother one or part of one, as well as combine to get something I couldn't get at all before.  So one of my lower-TPU ownerships is more useful now.  And I like it that I can sometimes choose to exchange for same resort a few weeks earlier or later, and spend fewer TPU's, when my schedule allows for it. More flexibility and transparency - and sometimes more vacations.


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## x3 skier (Apr 11, 2013)

With all the cross Q&A in this thread, I am reminded of Abbot and Costello and "Who's on First?" 

Cheers


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## theo (Apr 11, 2013)

*Not keeping up?*



x3 skier said:


> With all the cross Q&A in this thread, I am reminded of Abbot and Costello and "Who's on First?"



I respectfully recommend some Ginkgo Biloba. 
Are you being forced to read through this thread at gunpoint or something?  

This is, after all, the "Newbies Help" forum. It seems to me that any and all shared discussion and information from experienced people is potentially...well...*informative*, no?


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## JudyS (Apr 11, 2013)

theo said:


> ....
> *Since RCI adopted it's new "TPU" valuation system a few years ago, has your level of "exchanging" success and satisfaction perceptibly changed for you --- for better or worse, or not at all?*  ...


I'm not Laurie, but I feel the new TPU system is a great improvement. I love the transparency, being able to tell what a week really is worth or what it costs. The ability to combine weeks is a great advantage, even with the fees involved, and it provides a low-cost opportunity to extend expiring weeks. The ability to get "change" back from a deposit is even better -- you can get easy trades (in my case, that's usually off-season Orlando) without giving up an entire, more valuable, week.

Overall, I think the TPU system was the best thing to come out of the class-action lawsuit against RCI. 

I will note that using the new TPU system efficiently has required major changes in my timeshare portfolio. I used to own some "dog traders" that were worthwhile because their MFs were about the lowest I could find for, and it took a full week's deposit to trade even for something very easy, like a non-name brand resort in Orlando in September. But once the TPU system was implemented, these weeks weren't worth owning for me. If I wanted an easy trade, it was much more cost-effective to use a few TPUs from a stronger trader than to exchange an entire "dog week." Luckily, these "dog weeks" were also usable as low-cost II traders, where you still need to give a full week for a trade, so I found new homes from them.


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## x3 skier (Apr 11, 2013)

theo said:


> I respectfully recommend some Ginkgo Biloba.
> Are you being forced to read through this thread at gunpoint or something?



No, missed my Ritalin dose like half the people in the USA and got distracted.

Cheers


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## pacodemountainside (Apr 11, 2013)

Laurie said:


> Pre-TPU I was already pretty satisfied, happy and "successful", but had to sell and buy a few ownerships to get there.
> 
> Since then I prefer the TPU system, because I can choose to get more than 1 exchange out of a deposit, whether a whole 'nother one or part of one, as well as combine to get something I couldn't get at all before.  So one of my lower-TPU ownerships is more useful now.  And I like it that I can sometimes choose to exchange for same resort a few weeks earlier or later, and spend fewer TPU's, when my schedule allows for it. More flexibility and transparency - and sometimes more vacations.



To each his own. It depends whose ox got gored in 1/11/11 massacre.

Prior to that I deposited 154K split into   three 28s and a 70 which got me  a  "visual".  My 28s  regularly got me   154K-231K prime weeks.

Today 154K gets a  one BR  prime week.


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## regatta333 (Apr 11, 2013)

What about "Last Call" for RCI, "Getaways" for II, and the sell-off lists of the independent exchange companies?  The prices for many of these are probably well below the maintenance fees.


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## gnorth16 (Apr 11, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> I think gnorth's comment is directed to the OP...



Correct.  As for the TPU system, I like it for it's transparency and value based on what I deposit.  Some will and have disagreed, but it works for me based on where and when I vacation.  The fact that they charge Canadians more than Americans for the same exchange bugs me, but that is probably something I will never let go!!!

I look at trading like I manage my hockey and football pools.  It is always evolving, never stagnant because it is always changing with MF's, special assessments, TPU changes, fee increases etc.  Once it stops being fun, I will stop doing it, but I enjoy looking at RCI and II each day to see what is out there, even if I don't plan on booking a vacation.


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## JudyS (Apr 11, 2013)

pacodemountainside said:


> To each his own. It depends whose ox got gored in 1/11/11 massacre.
> 
> Prior to that I deposited 154K split into   three 28s and a 70 which got me  a  "visual".  My 28s  regularly got me   154K-231K prime weeks.
> 
> Today 154K gets a  one BR  prime week.


I don't recall what happened on 1/11/11. Is this "massacre" something specific to Wyndham points? 



gnorth16 said:


> .... The fact that they charge Canadians more than Americans for the same exchange bugs me, but that is probably something I will never let go!!!....


I thought the higher exchange fee was because Canada has a VAT tax and the US does not.


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## Beefnot (Apr 11, 2013)

JudyS said:


> I don't recall what happened on 1/11/11. Is this "massacre" something specific to Wyndham points?


 
That's when they did away with the 28k RCI deposits and moved the minimum to 74k.  That may have been the best value in all of timesharing that got obliterated by Wyndham.


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## JudyS (Apr 11, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> That's when they did away with the 28k RCI deposits and moved the minimum to 74k.  That may have been the best value in all of timesharing that got obliterated by Wyndham.


Thanks; I know about Wyndham getting rid of the "blue studio" trades in RCI; I just wasn't sure of the date.


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## pacodemountainside (Apr 11, 2013)

JudyS said:


> I don't recall what happened on 1/11/11. Is this "massacre" something specific to Wyndham points?



Wyndham had been promising a portal to RCI for may years   and finally delivered along with TPUs.

However, they exterminated  28K deposits which sales had promoted as special perk  for Wyndham owners and bumped  points requirements way up.

Beware VIPs,  documents they can and will  exterminate Developer   perks that get too expensive.

Since total Wyndham owners   remained about the same  around  523K  from 2011-2012 that $12 million  cash plus inventory for discounts has to be hurting!


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## timeos2 (Apr 11, 2013)

pacodemountainside said:


> Wyndham had been promising a portal to RCI for may years   and finally delivered along with TPUs.
> 
> However, they exterminated  28K deposits which sales had promoted as special perk  for Wyndham owners and bumped  points requirements way up.
> 
> ...



Anyone that depends on VIP (or worse PAID retail to get it!) got a royal shaft.  They have and will continue to reduce the piddling benefits it offers and the upfront money is gone.  

The only way to own Wyndham is resale & ignore VIP.  It can be a great value that way. And renting even better than owning I've found.


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## VegasBella (Apr 12, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> Although DeniseM can be a bit heavy-handed with her comments (which can take some getting used to), I think VegasBella was a bit skinsitive in her other thread when DeniseM rightly called her out for not doing her due diligence prior to her purchase.  Now, VegasBella may have stumbled into what may end up being a great purchase, but not because she had spent enough time researching.



Exactly what constitutes "enough researching"? How many weeks am I supposed to spend researching before I'm allowed to bid $53 in a nonbinding auction on eBay? Seriously.


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## SMHarman (Apr 13, 2013)

VegasBella said:


> Exactly what constitutes "enough researching"? How many weeks am I supposed to spend researching before I'm allowed to bid $53 in a nonbinding auction on eBay? Seriously.



It's the MF that gets ya, not the $53!


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## DeniseM (Apr 13, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> It's the MF that gets ya, not the $53!



And the possible difficulty of "getting rid of it" if it doesn't work out.


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## ronparise (Apr 13, 2013)

VegasBella said:


> Exactly what constitutes "enough researching"? How many weeks am I supposed to spend researching before I'm allowed to bid $53 in a nonbinding auction on eBay? Seriously.



Yes; Seriously


You seem to be saying that you will do your research sometime after you win an auction. 

I understand that ebay auctions are not binding, but the time to research your purchase is before you bid, not after...why would you bid on something you know very little about and perhaps have little interest in owning..

To answer your question directly. You can take as much time or as little time as you want learning about timeshares in general and the property you are bidding on in particular.  But the time it takes to research a purchase isnt the important thing.  What's important is to know that what you are buying will satisfy your needs and wants. And to have the confidence that a year from now you wont regret the decision


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## VegasBella (Apr 13, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> And the possible difficulty of "getting rid of it" if it doesn't work out.



As I explained elsewhere, I did the math and even factored in a budget of $2000 to get rid of it. And I ran a scenario where the MF quadrupled too. It still worked out to be cheaper than renting for about 7 years after the increase. And MF going up that high is unlikely, even with Diamond. So I've got plenty of time to exit if the MF drastically increase. I also read virtually all TUG has to offer on the resort. My research did not begin with that thread, it ended with that thread. 

But the bottom line is that telling someone to "do more research" simply isn't helpful unless that advice comes with specific resources to do more research. It's just rude, like calling someone stupid or ignorant. It's not helpful. It's mean.


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## DeniseM (Apr 13, 2013)

VegasBella said:


> But the bottom line is that telling someone to "do more research" simply isn't helpful unless that advice comes with specific resources to do more research. It's just rude, like calling someone stupid or ignorant. It's not helpful. It's mean.



VegasBella - Here's the deal - if you don't want people to ANSWER your questions, then don't ASK them.  Your on-going "Drama Queen" posts are childish.  Get over it.


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## VegasBella (Apr 13, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> VegasBella - Here's the deal - if you don't want people to ANSWER your questions, then don't ASK them.  Your on-going "Drama" posts are childish.  Get over it.


The thread was titled the name of the resort.You had never even been to that resort! You chimed in _without_ any answers to my questions! 

You simply came to that thread to tell me to read the TUG resort database, which I had already done. Then you continued with all these assumptions about me and my life and the resort, etc. You never answered any questions. Go back and re-read it yourself.


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## DeniseM (Apr 13, 2013)

VegasBella said:


> The thread was titled the name of the resort.You had never even been to that resort! You chimed in _without_ any answers to my questions!
> 
> You simply came to that thread to tell me to read the TUG resort database, which I had already done. Then you continued with all these assumptions about me and my life and the resort, etc. You never answered any questions. Go back and re-read it yourself.



So what - get over it.


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## Beefnot (Apr 13, 2013)

VegasBella said:


> The thread was titled the name of the resort.You had never even been to that resort! You chimed in _without_ any answers to my questions!
> 
> You simply came to that thread to tell me to read the TUG resort database, which I had already done. Then you continued with all these assumptions about me and my life and the resort, etc. You never answered any questions. Go back and re-read it yourself.



You also said it was a "semi-spontaneous" purchase, and you were not sure about the DRI ownership implications, which indicated that you had not done enough research. You asked for feedback and you received some informational feedback and some counsel as well. It appears that you appreciate information but candid counsel, not so much. You might want to do yourself a favor and next time only request information and do not ask "what should I do?" questions until your skin gets a little thicker.


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## VegasBella (Apr 13, 2013)

Beefnot said:


> It appears that you appreciate information but candid counsel, not so much. You might want to do yourself a favor and next time only request information and do not ask "what should I do?" questions until your skin gets a little thicker.



It's just Denise. I don't want what she "offers."
I do think an ignore feature would be useful. Most forums have that.


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## sue1947 (Apr 13, 2013)

VegasBella said:


> It's just Denise. I don't want what she "offers."
> I do think an ignore feature would be useful. Most forums have that.



Nope, it's you.  You posted asking for help and are now essentially yelling at Denise for offering that help.  Maybe you don't like her advice, but accept the idea that she was offering it with good intentions and move on.  This is an open forum where those more experienced than you will offer their help.  If you don't want that help don't ask.  Otherwise, selectively read just the advice you want, say thank you to all for the effort and move on.
Geesh!


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## brigechols (Apr 13, 2013)

VegasBella said:


> It's just Denise. I don't want what she "offers."
> I do think an ignore feature would be useful. Most forums have that.



This forum does have an Ignore feature; however, it does not permit you to ignore a board moderator.


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## Rent_Share (Apr 14, 2013)

VegasBella said:


> It's just Denise. I don't want what she "offers."
> I do think an ignore feature would be useful. Most forums have that.


 

To quote a moderator when your find yourself in a hole stop digging

Yes the ignore function is awkward - One has to go to another screen and add the party's user name, I am more than willing to do it to avoid your attitude. CYA 

I wish there was a thread ignore button so the next time Wyndham does something to impact the VIPs all 300 postings don't show up daily in my "new postings"


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## csxjohn (Apr 14, 2013)

Rent_Share said:


> To quote a moderator when your find yourself in a hole stop digging
> ...



:hysterical:  A great quote from DeniseM!


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## DazedandConfused (Apr 14, 2013)

brigechols said:


> This forum does have an Ignore feature; however, it does not permit you to ignore a board moderator.



When will someone invent a "real life" ignore button so I can enjoy my life without hearing about specific people such as the Kardashians, Justin Beaver, and anyone associated with shows like the Bachelor.


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## x3 skier (Apr 14, 2013)

DazedandConfused said:


> When will someone invent a "real life" ignore button so I can enjoy my life without hearing about specific people such as the Kardashians, Justin Beaver, and anyone associated with shows like the Bachelor.



I will be first in line to get one. 

I suspect that unfortunately there is a larger market for a "tune in" button. Wait! There's already one called Twitter. 

Cheers


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