# Dumping of timeshares is coming.....Prepare yourself for big maintenance fee increases and special a



## allsmiles2771 (Jun 9, 2019)

Dumping of timeshares is coming.....Prepare yourself for big maintenance fee increases and special assessments !!!!* The timeshare crisis is upon us where late Fall, Winter and early Spring weeks are not worth what you are paying in maintenance fees, special assessments and other excuses to separate you from your money. The more people that dump their timeshares the more your fees will go up. I am not telling you to dump your timeshares. If you own several timeshares and plan on dumping them I would consult a good attorney first to see if something can be negotiated. There are some legal options. The years of getting good benefit from timeshares is almost over with because of management companies aka "CROOKS" and BOARD MEMBERS  aka "CROOKS" who don't do their jobs and cause these outrageous increases in maintenance fees and special assessments above and beyond the cost of living increases. People with prime time Summer weeks are probably still getting a fairly good deal for their money. One day this will all end with a timeshare implosion. It is going to happen....it is just a matter of time. I don't think all Board members are crooks or all management companies are crooks but the proof is in the pudding after what I have seen with several complexes. Money is at the root of all this !!!!*


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## VacationForever (Jun 9, 2019)

What is the point of your post?  Your post sounds like one coming from a timeshare "relief" company.  

No, the sky is not falling.


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## Panina (Jun 9, 2019)

Ouch, sorry, seems your experiences have not been good.  Mine for the most part have been very good and many of my timeshares have great management.  Board members volunteer their time and most are looking out for owners interests.  Yes there are exceptions.


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## tonyg (Jun 9, 2019)

Sounds like somebody heard a fire and brimstone speech and applied it to timeshares. In 1998  the average timeshare maintenance fee was around $1,000 a week. It might be a good thing if a few resorts went belly up and resulted in charges being filed against board members and management. We survived the financial crisis in 2008, so I don't foresee the timesharing world collapsing without something far worse happening.


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## Passepartout (Jun 9, 2019)

THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!


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## DaveNV (Jun 9, 2019)

Whew!  Good thing I don't own any timeshares anymore!  I already dumped all mine.

Dave


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## RX8 (Jun 9, 2019)

oceanbreeze said:


> *but the proof is in the pudding after what I have seen with several complexes.*



What exactly have you seen?


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## Passepartout (Jun 9, 2019)

I tried to dump 'em, but they keep plugging the toilet!


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 9, 2019)

There have been and there will be implosions with certain older independent resorts. However you cannot treat these situations like peanut butter and spread it across the entire industry. I doubt the hotel branded timeshares will have issues.

If you believe otherwise, what is your evidence?


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## DavidnRobin (Jun 9, 2019)

Send me money and I won’t get rid of your timeshare for you - but claim I will.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bucky (Jun 10, 2019)

Sounds like a typical troll with nothing better to do!


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## dioxide45 (Jun 10, 2019)

A lot of speculation without any sort of citation or facts to back it up?


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## Roger830 (Jun 10, 2019)

oceanbreeze said:


> * late Fall, Winter and early Spring weeks are not worth what you are paying in maintenance fees *



South Florida in the winter has the highest resale prices of any season, then the summer, followed by the fall according to the county database.


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## tonyg (Jun 10, 2019)

After a night's sleep, there is no sudden problem happening. Off season weeks have always been a problem in places where there are low seasons. It is something HOAs and management have to constantly work at by keeping those weeks under ownership.When those weeks get foreclosed on or "dumped", it's the high season weeks that are affected by increased fees. It is also the reason why some summer spots have limited availability and little new resorts being built.

I also recall a time (2003-2004)when we had a poster here named "Chicken Little". It is also probably a good idea not to talk about his activities or actual identity tho.


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## allsmiles2771 (Jun 10, 2019)

Well I guess people did not read the whole post by some of the replies I got. No I would never work for one of those "get rid of your timeshare companies". Some of the comments were positive and some were personal attacks. The area I speak of is Atlantic Beach, North Carolina....the resorts are Peppertree Atlantic Beach, A Place at the Beach III and Sands Villa. I think Sands Villa is the best timeshare complex in that area. I used to feel that way about Peppertree AB but their maintenance fees have gone through the roof. APATB III can be good by being able to purchase units very cheaply if you know where to buy them but their maintenance fees keep climbing and there is no end in sight. I think I will soon be rid of most of my timeshares. I did consult legal help before starting the process.


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## RX8 (Jun 10, 2019)

oceanbreeze said:


> Well I guess people did not read the whole post by some of the replies I got. No I would never work for one of those "get rid of your timeshare companies". Some of the comments were positive and some were personal attacks. The area I speak of is Atlantic Beach, North Carolina....the resorts are Peppertree Atlantic Beach, A Place at the Beach III and Sands Villa. I think Sands Villa is the best timeshare complex in that area. I used to feel that way about Peppertree AB but their maintenance fees have gone through the roof. APATB III can be good by being able to purchase units very cheaply if you know where to buy them but their maintenance fees keep climbing and there is no end in sight. I think I will soon be rid of most of my timeshares. I did consult legal help before starting the process.



I am not  familiar with these timeshares.  Other than the MF increases, what else is happening there for you to think the rug is going to be pulled out from under everyone?

You consulted legal help before starting what process?

Edited - can see from your prior posts you were upset over noise at APATB III (an RCI exchange) and Peppertree AB's land lost in a BK purchase.


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## bogey21 (Jun 10, 2019)

I think we all know the problem.  It is the MFs for the off season Weeks that are not being paid.  This loss of income is being passed through to those with desirable Weeks increasing their MFs and decreasing their value....

George


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## easyrider (Jun 10, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> I tried to dump 'em, but they keep plugging the toilet!



Too funny.  I'm still grinning.

Bill


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## Tamaradarann (Jun 11, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> I think we all know the problem.  It is the MFs for the off season Weeks that are not being paid.  This loss of income is being passed through to those with desirable Weeks increasing their MFs and decreasing their value....
> 
> George


The point about "off season weeks" is very important to focus on.  The maintenance fees for "off season weeks" is the same as for prime weeks.  Many times "off season weeks" are during times when school is in session so that families can't go, or the weather is not desirable to vacation(off season).  With the original weeks exchange system if you had an off season week you had a difficult time exchanging into a prime week at any resort.  The points systems take that into consideration so that you get less points for purchasing an "off season week" and, therefore, you must use more points to exchange into a prime season week.  To exchange into a prime week you either have to bank your points and exchange next year, borrow from your next year points, or you could exchange your yearly points allocation for only say 5 prime time nights.  The new TPU system does the same type of thing.

Therefore, while the owner of the "off season week" purchased at a lower cost, they get less utility from their annual maintenance fee purchase.  Therefore, their ownership over time is less desirable causing a greater chance of maintenance fees not being paid and selling is more difficult.


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## bogey21 (Jun 11, 2019)

As much as I prefer Fixed Weeks/Fixed Units and continue to believe Fixed Weeks are the way to go for those who use their Week year after year, I have to admit that Points Systems are a better alternative for those who want the flexibility to exchange...

George


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## RX8 (Jun 11, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> As much as I prefer Fixed Weeks/Fixed Units and continue to believe Fixed Weeks are the way to go for those who use their Week year after year, I have to admit that Points Systems are a better alternative for those who want the flexibility to exchange...
> 
> George



I agree. Only after being in TUG for a long time did I finally purchase a timeshare. By that time I knew what I wanted and went looking for it. It provides the best of both worlds, IMHO.  It is a fixed summer week in CA that gives me the option to swap for HGVC points. The summer week has been perfect for our family for the last 7 years so we haven’t yet swapped for HGVC points. With the boys growing older we might start looking at the HGVC options for next year.

Even if we start using HGVC more in the future it is nice to know that we could always use the summer week any year we want, a place where we now have so many memories.


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## jhac007 (Jun 11, 2019)

oceanbreeze said:


> Dumping of timeshares is coming.....Prepare yourself for big maintenance fee increases and special assessments !!!!* The timeshare crisis is upon us where late Fall, Winter and early Spring weeks are not worth what you are paying in maintenance fees, special assessments and other excuses to separate you from your money. The more people that dump their timeshares the more your fees will go up. I am not telling you to dump your timeshares. If you own several timeshares and plan on dumping them I would consult a good attorney first to see if something can be negotiated. There are some legal options. The years of getting good benefit from timeshares is almost over with because of management companies aka "CROOKS" and BOARD MEMBERS  aka "CROOKS" who don't do their jobs and cause these outrageous increases in maintenance fees and special assessments above and beyond the cost of living increases. People with prime time Summer weeks are probably still getting a fairly good deal for their money. One day this will all end with a timeshare implosion. It is going to happen....it is just a matter of time. I don't think all Board members are crooks or all management companies are crooks but the proof is in the pudding after what I have seen with several complexes. Money is at the root of all this !!!!*



Ahhh yes, and the world will come to an end one day.........................


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## Tamaradarann (Jun 11, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> As much as I prefer Fixed Weeks/Fixed Units and continue to believe Fixed Weeks are the way to go for those who use their Week year after year, I have to admit that Points Systems are a better alternative for those who want the flexibility to exchange...
> 
> George


Points are the way to go from my experience.  I have owned an RCI Red Time and a number of Hilton Platinum points timeshares since 2006 and rarely stay in what I own using my points.  I usually exchange my points for some really great vacations totaling about 120 days a year.  I get the maximum amount of exchanging power from RCI Red Time and Hilton Platinum Points.  If I would own White or Blue RCI Time or Hilton Gold, Silver or Bronze Points I would be getting a lot less vacation for my maintenance dollars or I would have had to buy more timeshares to get the amount of vacation where and when we desire.


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## Panina (Jun 11, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> As much as I prefer Fixed Weeks/Fixed Units and continue to believe Fixed Weeks are the way to go for those who use their Week year after year, I have to admit that Points Systems are a better alternative for those who want the flexibility to exchange...
> 
> George





RX8 said:


> I agree. Only after being in TUG for a long time did I finally purchase a timeshare. By that time I knew what I wanted and went looking for it. It provides the best of both worlds, IMHO.  It is a fixed summer week in CA that gives me the option to swap for HGVC points. The summer week has been perfect for our family for the last 7 years so we haven’t yet swapped for HGVC points. With the boys growing older we might start looking at the HGVC options for next year.
> 
> Even if we start using HGVC more in the future it is nice to know that we could always use the summer week any year we want, a place where we now have so many memories.


I prefer my fixed weeks or flex weeks in resorts that are hard to trade into.  I am guaranteed with my pure fixed weeks where and when and with my flex where. All my timeshares have the guarantee including hgvc I own by getting affiliates or mandatory resorts with a guaranteed holiday week.  I still have the flexibility to trade within the hgvc point system, rci or II, the choices give me the best scenario.


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## OldGuy (Jun 11, 2019)

OB OP:

Bold, or italics, and especially italics, normally means the person is quoting something from somewhere else.  Since yours is not in italics, are you?

Or is your OP your own words?

When quoting someone else, is nice to know the source.

By the way, there is no timeshare crisis for those who don't want to get rid of their timeshares.  It's only the other 15% of owners.


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## allsmiles2771 (Jun 11, 2019)

I also prefer fixed weeks since I try to buy timeshares with a good view of ocean. I would never consider a Points system because I always want the view of the ocean. That is just my opinion but special assessments can ruin people that own several timeshares. I don't know the answer and I will soon be out of the timeshare ownership in the near future. Boards do not represent owners in some cases they represent the management companies for the power and perks in some cases,


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## allsmiles2771 (Jun 11, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> OB OP:
> 
> Bold, or italics, and especially italics, normally means the person is quoting something from somewhere else.  Since yours is not in italics, are you?
> 
> ...


I used bold print so it would be easier to read for me and others.


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## WVBaker (Jun 11, 2019)

What were we thinking! Beware the four Horsemen of the timeshare apocalypse! Quick, grab the beer!


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## OldGuy (Jun 11, 2019)

oceanbreeze said:


> I used bold print so it would be easier to read for me and others.



I use regular print mostly, to make it hard to read.


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## GetawaysRus (Jun 11, 2019)

jhac007 said:


> Ahhh yes, and the world will come to an end one day.........................



I think that's in about 7.5 billion years, give or take a few billion.

At the rate at which annual maintenance fees have been increasing, just think about what our MFs will be in a few billion years!!


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## OldGuy (Jun 11, 2019)

GetawaysRus said:


> I think that's in about 7.5 billion years, give or take a few billion.
> 
> At the rate at which annual maintenance fees have been increasing, just think about what our MFs will be in a few billion years!!



& I'll still be on craigslist, trying to get rid of ours


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## Tamaradarann (Jun 11, 2019)

oceanbreeze said:


> I also prefer fixed weeks since I try to buy timeshares with a good view of ocean. I would never consider a Points system because I always want the view of the ocean. That is just my opinion but special assessments can ruin people that own several timeshares. I don't know the answer and I will soon be out of the timeshare ownership in the near future. Boards do not represent owners in some cases they represent the management companies for the power and perks in some cases,



I understand your desire to have a good view of the ocean.  We don't own ANY timeshares with a view of the ocean.  In 2019 we have already spent 117 nights in Honolulu and Maui with nice views of the ocean.  We will have another 7 nights booked in late December in Honolulu with a nice view of the ocean.  We will be spending 8 nights in NYC in August, 3 nights near Zion National Park and 14 nights in Las Vegas in September-October without the possibility of ocean views.  In December we have 15 nights on Hawaii Island at resorts we have never stayed at before so I don't know the views we will get.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 11, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> OB OP:
> 
> Bold, or italics, and especially italics, normally means the person is quoting something from somewhere else.  Since yours is not in italics, are you?
> 
> ...


Delinquency rates on residential mortgages got as high as 11% during the financial crisis. Those 15% of owners could be a big problem if they were to all default at the same time.


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## PigsDad (Jun 12, 2019)

oceanbreeze said:


> I used bold print so it would be easier to read for me and others.


*Bold *or ALL CAPS usually indicates "shouting"; it doesn't make it easier to read for most.  What _would _have made your original post easier to read is a paragraph break occasionally.  Give it a try next time. 

Kurt


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## OldGuy (Jun 12, 2019)

Got confirmation today that we did, in fact, dump another one.  So, a teeny, tiny piece of sky fell.



&, oh, by the way, the dumping of timeshares started at least ten years ago.  A lot of factors involved, but they include the aging of early timeshare owners, and the economic speedbump.

Did the memo just get to you oceanbreeze?


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## OldGuy (Jun 12, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> *Bold *or ALL CAPS usually indicates "shouting"



I almost said that, but it's actually ALL CAPS that indicates shouting.

& it's _Italics _that indicates it's a quote.

So, I wasn't sure what *all bold* meant. 

There is the ever-reliable Urban Dictionary:

*bold font method*
_This is a form of studying where one *skims* through a text and simply memorizes/learns everything in bold or italicized.
Do you want to meet up cram for *tomorrow's Ochem* test?

Nah, I'm done studying.

Really? You must be really organized to be able to study ahead of time.

Nah, I used the *Bold Font Method*...if it's bold I memorized it. >70% of every test is based off bold font in books.
- - _
I made that all _Italics_ because it is a direct quote.
- -
Then there is this:

_*Bold* strongly stands out from regular *text*, and is often used to highlight keywords important to the *text's* content and allowing such words to be visually scanned with ease.
- - _
Again I used _Italics_ because it is a direct quote.

Of course, following that meaning, the OP contained a whole lot of *keywords*, so many so that all of them were highlighted, drawing an equal amount of attention to all of them, making none of them *keywords.*

I *guess.

*


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## silentg (Jun 12, 2019)

We find our timeshares a good value. If you were to rent a condo for a week at some resorts you would pay much more than your maintenance fee.
Did something happen at your resorts ( storm damage perhaps)?
We have been hit with assessment fees over the years but usually, for good reason. Updating remodeling or fixing roof etc.
At one time we had 7 timeshares but now we own 4. Making good use of our weeks most resales from TUG. 
Silentg


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## easyrider (Jun 12, 2019)

*I THINK I MADE CHANGES TO MY TIMESHARE PORTFOLIO QUITE A WHILE AGO. IF YOU ARE THINKING THAT DUMPING TIMESHARES HASN'T BEEN ONGOING FOR A LONG TIME, ESPECIALLY REGARDING THIS GROUP, YOU ARE LATE TO THE GAME. 
*
Bill


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## silentg (Jun 12, 2019)

I like to think I’ve rehoused my timeshare weeks.Everyone I’ve dealt with was happy to take them from me. I don’t stress about buying and selling them, of course if I didn’t have successful sales then I might be upset like the OP.
Silentg


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## OldGuy (Jun 12, 2019)

silentg said:


> If you were to rent a condo for a week at some resorts you would pay much more than your maintenance fee.



Except, of course, if you rent from RCI or from an owner trying to recover a portion of their maintenance fee, both of which I do regularly.


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## bogey21 (Jun 12, 2019)

I think a lot of what it comes down to is what one paid in the first place for what they own.  It didn't bother me to net about $1,000 when I divested by 6 Weeks after many years of use.  Why?  I only had a total of maybe invested $7,500 in them.  I know I would have felt a lot different if $3,500 is the most I could get for a Week that cost me $35,000...

George


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## silentg (Jun 12, 2019)

Never payed much for a timeshare


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## OldGuy (Jun 13, 2019)

silentg said:


> Never payed much for a timeshare



For many _used_ timeshares, _free _is too expensive, especially in the long run.


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## silentg (Jun 13, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> For many _used_ timeshares, _free _is too expensive, especially in the long run.


In some cases you are right, but right now I’m ok with what we have.


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## joestein (Jun 14, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> There have been and there will be implosions with certain older independent resorts. However you cannot treat these situations like peanut butter and spread it across the entire industry. I doubt the hotel branded timeshares will have issues.
> 
> If you believe otherwise, what is your evidence?



I am not sure what to make of that peanut butter line.


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## silentg (Jun 14, 2019)

I’ll make a


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## OldGuy (Jun 14, 2019)

silentg said:


> In some cases you are right, but right now I’m ok with what we have.



me too


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## 4Sunsets (Jun 14, 2019)

oceanbreeze said:


> Dumping of timeshares is coming.....Prepare yourself for big maintenance fee increases and special assessments !!!!* The timeshare crisis is upon us where late Fall, Winter and early Spring weeks are not worth what you are paying in maintenance fees, special assessments and other excuses to separate you from your money. The more people that dump their timeshares the more your fees will go up. I am not telling you to dump your timeshares. If you own several timeshares and plan on dumping them I would consult a good attorney first to see if something can be negotiated. There are some legal options. The years of getting good benefit from timeshares is almost over with because of management companies aka "CROOKS" and BOARD MEMBERS  aka "CROOKS" who don't do their jobs and cause these outrageous increases in maintenance fees and special assessments above and beyond the cost of living increases. People with prime time Summer weeks are probably still getting a fairly good deal for their money. One day this will all end with a timeshare implosion. It is going to happen....it is just a matter of time. I don't think all Board members are crooks or all management companies are crooks but the proof is in the pudding after what I have seen with several complexes. Money is at the root of all this !!!!*



Hi OceanBreeze,

I think you smell blood in the water  The TS industry is certainly in a shake up phase and the fallout from the financial crisis is catching up to everyone for sure. 

I *do* think a lot of smaller TS companies may get swept away once the final wave of the crisis catches up. As far as the big companies, MVC and Hilton and Wyndham seem to be holding their own.

Big shakeups have occurred (and are occurring) within MVC due to the merger. I do think there will be some shake up with regard to fees and assessments to catch up everything, especially for Vistana TS (westin/sheraton/etc) which were in limbo for a few years of ownership changes. 

I *do* think MF are a bit out of control. I've certainly posted bunches about that. MVC MF went up even when costs in the economy were going down, and meanwhile some others were able to hold MF steady.

Honest conversation about MF is necessary for sure, especially at the ts meetings/board. I *do* at times find it disheartening that our cost / day of stays has never truly gone down and that for the same amount of money ($608 per night right now if I remember correctly based on all paids ins) we could stay in some very posh suites instead. 

I *do* agree that it's disheartening that we could sometimes pay out of pocket and stay in the same places for 1/3 to 1/2 our total paid in cost. This for off season stays and what not.

But then I also remember the positives... So far TS owners don't have to pay hotel rate taxes for stays... So far TS owners at many locations don't have to pay daily resort and daily parking fees. These savings can actually be pretty huge, especially in Hawaii w 16.5-18% hotel tax and $30-40 daily parking and $25-35 daily resort fees. (YES I just defended TS )


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## bogey21 (Jun 14, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> .I doubt the hotel branded timeshares will have issues...If you believe otherwise, what is your evidence?



I have no evidence but my gut tells me MFs will increase faster at the hotel branded timeshares than at the HOA Controlled Independents.  If I am right. they will be in serious trouble 10-15 years down the road...

George


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jun 14, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> I have no evidence but my gut tells me MFs will increase faster at the hotel branded timeshares than at the HOA Controlled Independents.  If I am right. they will be in serious trouble 10-15 years down the road...
> 
> George


I think the hotel-branded operations will always want to funnel their frequent-staying members towards buying vacation ownership.  To do that, they have to be sure that the timeshare maintenance fees always offer a value proposition over staying on-site via direct booking. That creates a cap on how high they can go with maintenance fees.  

What the fees are at independent resorts won't matter much, because on the sales floor buyers aren't making that comparison.


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## PigsDad (Jun 14, 2019)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I think the hotel-branded operations will always want to funnel their frequent-staying members towards buying vacation ownership.  To do that, they have to be sure that the timeshare maintenance fees always offer a value proposition over staying on-site via direct booking. That creates a cap on how high they can go with maintenance fees.
> 
> What the fees are at independent resorts won't matter much, because on the sales floor buyers aren't making that comparison.


I would agree with that logic, and it seems to match my experience in owning hotel-branded timeshares for the last 15 years.  Very modest annual increases (2-4%), and no special assessments -- even though two of our timeshares took a direct hurricane hit that caused enough damage for them to be shut down for several weeks.

@bogey21:  George -- given that hotel-branded timeshares have been around for several decades, why to you think all of a sudden their MFs will start increasing to the point they will be "in serious trouble 10-15 years down the road"?  Years of past data certainly doesn't support that prediction.  What do you see changing?

On the contrary, the resorts that have gotten themselves into a death spiral of defaults that lead to higher MFs that lead to more defaults to higher MFs, etc., have almost always been smaller, independent timeshares.

Kurt


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jun 15, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> On the contrary, the resorts that have gotten themselves into a death spiral of defaults that lead to higher MFs that lead to more defaults to higher MFs, etc., have almost always been smaller, independent timeshares.


IMHO - many of the resorts that have gone into death spiral are properties that were marginal for timeshare to begin with, due to there being a large off-peak period where units have little value.  In many cases those are HOA managed, independent properties, because the developer sold the units and then moved on, having made their money.  That was common in the early days of timesharing. 

The hotel-branded timeshares are much savvier about only creating inventory in areas where there is reasonable year-round demand.  They are in the business of operating, not just building, so they know to pay attention to that.


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## Tamaradarann (Jun 15, 2019)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> IMHO - many of the resorts that have gone into death spiral are properties that were marginal for timeshare to begin with, due to there being a large off-peak period where unit have little value.  In many cases those are HOA managed, independent properties, because the developer sold the units and then moved on, having made their money.  That was common in the early days of timesharing.
> 
> The hotel-branded timeshares are much savvier about only creating inventory in areas where there is reasonable year-round demand.  They are in the business of operating, not just building, so they know to pay attention to that.



I totally agree with your thinking here.  That is one of the reasons that the Hilton Grand Vacation Club has such a great amount of inventory in Honolulu(5), Island of Hawaii(4), NYC(4), Las Vegas(4), and Orlando(4).  Many criticize them for continuous building and renovating in those areas and not branching out to a lot of other locations but they are cautious and have only dabbled in a few other select locations.


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## OldGuy (Jun 15, 2019)

For certain, if the market rental value of a week is not as much as the maintenance fee, which is true in many places many weeks, that could be a sign . . . .

After all, with Internet it is pretty easy for folks to rent for less that owners are paying.


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## SteelerGal (Jun 15, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> I totally agree with your thinking here.  That is one of the reasons that the Hilton Grand Vacation Club has such a great amount of inventory in Honolulu(5), Island of Hawaii(4), NYC(4), Las Vegas(4), and Orlando(4).  Many criticize them for continuous building and renovating in those areas and not branching out to a lot of other locations but they are cautious and have only dabbled in a few other select locations.


HGVC also has marketed successfully to foreign markets.


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## Tamaradarann (Jun 15, 2019)

SteelerGal said:


> HGVC also has marketed successfully to foreign markets.



Well you certainly see that in Honolulu.  They are so Japanese oriented that all of the Resort Managers are either of Japanese decent and/or speak Japanese fluently.  We love it including playing bilingual bingo on Wednesdays at 4:00 PM in the owners lounge in the Grand Waikikian.


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## Saskalta (Jun 16, 2019)

We have numerous timeshare weeks with Hawaiian Sun Holidays.  We bought them on the resale market and paid a reasonable price. Our maintenance fees are quite reasonable for Waikiki and are well below $600/week for a 1 bedroom.  Not the fanciest property, but very very decent and a great value.  If we didn't own our timeshare weeks, instead of going every year, we might only go every five years...  As the cost to rent a similar room during the peak season is double or triple what our timeshare maintenance fee is..  We are very happy with the current arrangement.. AND if we do decide to use RCI, it is a very good trader.. gets us almost 2 weeks in most RCI North American trade locations!! Couldn't be more pleased!


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## OldGuy (Jun 16, 2019)

There was a strong Japanese presence on Kauai 20 years ago, golf being a big reason.


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## silentg (Jun 16, 2019)

silentg said:


> I’ll make a


I put a sandwich emoji but it didn’t copy


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## OldGuy (Jun 21, 2019)

Using ARDA's always-accurate-and-never-biased figures , I wonder what would happen if all of the 15% of dissatisfied timeshare owners were suddenly let go?

Would timeshare resorts collapse, or would they thrive, having eliminated all that bad debt expense, be able to lower fees for the happy owners, and remove the angst from the industry?

Only the shadow knows.


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## buzglyd (Jun 21, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> I totally agree with your thinking here.  That is one of the reasons that the Hilton Grand Vacation Club has such a great amount of inventory in Honolulu(5), Island of Hawaii(4), NYC(4), Las Vegas(4), and Orlando(4).  Many criticize them for continuous building and renovating in those areas and not branching out to a lot of other locations but they are cautious and have only dabbled in a few other select locations.



Well they've got 4 in South Carolina now and that market is heavily seasonal.


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## Tamaradarann (Jun 21, 2019)

buzglyd said:


> Well they've got 4 in South Carolina now and that market is heavily seasonal.



I know.  That is one which you will need to ask HGVC about.  I have never been nor do I intend on go to South Carolina.


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## Panina (Jun 21, 2019)

buzglyd said:


> Well they've got 4 in South Carolina now and that market is heavily seasonal.


Very heavily school season but busy other times too.  Good Weather has a long season, Hilton Head a little warmer then Myrtle Beach.  April and October are my favorite times in Myrtle Beach.  It can also be warm in March and November depending on the weather flow.  Many northeners actually spend the winter in this region as winters are very mild.  Occasionally a very cold spell or snow/ice but gone in a few days.


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## bogey21 (Jun 21, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> George -- given that hotel-branded timeshares have been around for several decades, why to you think all of a sudden their MFs will start increasing to the point they will be "in serious trouble 10-15 years down the road"?  Years of past data certainly doesn't support that prediction.  What do you see changing?



MFs continue to increase every year; we hit a recession; travel slows; rental rates get cut to where they are substantially less than MFs.  Maybe this never happens but if it does the value of all TSs plummet including major brands, both points and Weeks...

George


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## OldGuy (Jun 21, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> MFs continue to increase every year; we hit a recession; travel slows; rental rates get cut to where they are substantially less than MFs.  Maybe this never happens but if it does the value of all TSs plummet including major brands, both points and Weeks...
> 
> George



I had to look to see if I said that.


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## PigsDad (Jun 21, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> MFs continue to increase every year; we hit a recession; travel slows; rental rates get cut to where they are substantially less than MFs.  Maybe this never happens but if it does the value of all TSs plummet including major brands, both points and Weeks...


Hmmm.  As I recall, that happened in '01-'02 and '07-'08, and we are still here and timeshare sales are increasing every year.  What happened?

Kurt


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## jme (Jun 21, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> Hmmm.  As I recall, that happened in '01-'02 and '07-'08, and we are still here and timeshare sales are increasing every year.  What happened?
> 
> Kurt



People still love to "get away".
Also, they may not be making as much as they would like, but they still love to dine out.
Seems to be a recession-proof business.

Travel? ditto.
Whatever the circumstances, people take to the road.





And......do you know of a city ANYWHERE where the restaurant business ISN'T thriving?  I don't.
Even in my home town in Georgia you have to make reservations early and expect waits at those (good) places
where they don't take reservations.

And take Hilton Head, for example, or Williamsburg, or Boston, or Orlando-----restaurants are killing it!!!!


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## bogey21 (Jun 21, 2019)

You all could be right.  All I know is that I bought Weeks at 4 different Marriott Resorts starting in the Mid 80s.  Almost immediatey they started changing the rules to my detriment.  Within 5 years or so it became apparent to me that what I owned was going to decline in value so I sold, at a small profit no less.  Today I would be lucky to get back 1/3 of my original purchase prices.  I have no idea what the transition from Weeks to Points did to the value of those holding onto their Weeks.  Maybe they benefited, maybe they got hurt.  You all know better than me.  But I continue to believe that the profit motive of the Marriotts, Hiltons, Wyndhams, etc. will result in continuing changes in their product to their benefit and to the detriment of their owners.  Hope I am wrong, but this is what I believe...

George


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## Panina (Jun 21, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> You all could be right.  All I know is that I bought Weeks at 4 different Marriott Resorts starting in the Mid 80s.  Almost immediatey they started changing the rules to my detriment.  Within 5 years or so it became apparent to me that what I owned was going to decline in value so I sold, at a small profit no less.  Today I would be lucky to get back 1/3 of my original purchase prices.  I have no idea what the transition from Weeks to Points did to the value of those holding onto their Weeks.  Maybe they benefited, maybe they got hurt.  You all know better than me.  But I continue to believe that the profit motive of the Marriotts, Hiltons, Wyndhams, etc. will result in continuing changes in their product to their benefit and to the detriment of their owners.  Hope I am wrong, but this is what I believe...
> 
> George


You point is valid.  Many of the systems made changes that were not beneficial to owners.   These changes were ways to sell something else and were profit driven.


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## OldGuy (Jun 21, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> Y  But I continue to believe that the profit motive of the Marriotts, Hiltons, Wyndhams, etc. will result in continuing changes in their product to their benefit and to the detriment of their owners.
> 
> George



"Cash Cows" comes to mind.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 22, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Using ARDA's always-accurate-and-never-biased figures , I wonder what would happen if all of the 15% of dissatisfied timeshare owners were suddenly let go?
> 
> Would timeshare resorts collapse, or would they thrive, having eliminated all that bad debt expense, be able to lower fees for the happy owners, and remove the angst from the industry?
> 
> Only the shadow knows.


Given how at the height of the financial crisis the default rate on mortgages was only a little over 10%, if 15% of timeshare owners defaulted it wouldn't be pretty. If they just were let go, who would pay their MFs? That would become bad debt or everyone else's fees would go up, not be lowered.


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## Tamaradarann (Jun 22, 2019)

Panina said:


> Very heavily school season but busy other times too.  Good Weather has a long season, Hilton Head a little warmer then Myrtle Beach.  April and October are my favorite times in Myrtle Beach.  It can also be warm in March and November depending on the weather flow.  Many northeners actually spend the winter in this region as winters are very mild.  Occasionally a very cold spell or snow/ice but gone in a few days.



What is warm is a matter of opinion.  We love the weather on Long Island from June - September, even though this June has been a little too cold.  The rest of the year it is too cold for us to enjoy.  We like daytimes in the 70's or above and nights no lower than 60.  Honolulu is our place, not South Carolina.


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## OldGuy (Jun 22, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> . . . if 15% of timeshare owners defaulted it wouldn't be pretty. If they just were let go, who would pay their MFs? That would become bad debt or everyone else's fees would go up, not be lowered.



But, we don't know that.

We don't know that if all the angst and litigation and bad debt expense ended, and all that was left was happy, happy, happy owners, fees would go up.

What we do know is that if the defaulters were no longer defaulting, there would be no bad dept expense, or very little.

But, since you mentioned the mortgage foreclosure debacle, did everything go to heck in a handbasket?  Did those paying their mortgages have to start paying extra fees?  Sure, there was a painful period, but did the defaulters get taken care of, and did things return pretty much to normal, over time?

And what caused the mortgage foreclosure debacle?  Predatory lending practices putting people in houses above their means, and a decline in the value of the entire housing market when it hit critical mass.

Artificial house prices and owners who should not be.

Not entirely unlike the collapse of the timeshare retail market when the number wanting to escape the timeshare trap hit critical mass.

So, maybe there needs to be purging, a sanitizing of the industry, and get it over with.

Like housing, *is there not a lower, real value in timeshare, where more people would find it attractive,* just as the thousands of foreclosed houses have found new owners at lower values?  At foreclosure ground zero, where there were once hundreds of foreclosures, with new ones every day, it's hard to find one now, and the values are much higher now.

Once the housing purge happened, and things settled back into real values, those values started increasing again, hopefully in a more sane manner.  The house we bought for $45,000 in 2011, and sold for $129,000 in 2015, is for sale now for $220,000.  Timeshare owners would be jumping for joy if something like that happened to timeshares, and there was virtually no defaults.

I am familiar with many older resorts where something close to that has happened, where they take back defaulting weeks and make them productive, and where there is real market value to timeshare weeks, much lower than developer values, but real, getting in and getting out.

Sometimes older and lesser is better.

Dollars and sense aside, *it's just sad that an industry has to rely on massive litigation of their customers as SOP.*

Wow!  I did not intend to go here when I started this post, but maybe a timeshare foreclosure crisis is what is needed . . . or, less painful, just letting the bad debt owners go.


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## Big Matt (Jun 22, 2019)

I could see some of the smaller independent timeshares just convert to condos, selling the units outright and establishing a subsequent condo association.  You could even just flip them into apartments and work with municipalities to get affordable housing designations for some/all of the units.  Most are going to be compliant already.


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## chapjim (Jun 22, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> I have never been nor do I intend on go to South Carolina.



Is there a reason?  I think a lot of people here would say you might be missing something.  SC has some wonderful areas and is a lot closer and cheaper to get to than Hawaii.


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## Sugarcubesea (Jun 22, 2019)

I'm fortunate I own at 2 independents, Pinestead Reef (HOA controlled by owners) and Quarter House and thus far my MF's have been reasonable. We have one special assessment coming up at Pinestead Reef, but its something that will help the resort long term and save on MF's in the future by making the resort more desirable in the winter...

I could not rent for less then what I pay in MF's in the weeks and area's my independents, are located at..

love what I own...


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## LannyPC (Jun 22, 2019)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I could not rent for less then what I pay in MF's in the weeks and area's my independents, are located at..
> 
> love what I own...



Good for you that you found something like that.  Unfortunately that describes a very small minority of the timeshares and intervals out there.  I don't have the stats to back this up and researching this to get accurate figures would be a very arduous process but, from observation, it appears that the majority of intervals out there fall into the category of MFs higher than what could easily be recouped in rentals.

If that is the case, then I can see the truth behind the OP's title of this thread.  I guess that also explains why there are so many timeshare exit/cancel/relief companies out there.  It would also explain why we get so many newcomers on these boards (seems like weekly) asking how to dump their TSs.


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## Tamaradarann (Jun 22, 2019)

chapjim said:


> Is there a reason?  I think a lot of people here would say you might be missing something.  SC has some wonderful areas and is a lot closer and cheaper to get to than Hawaii.



Without getting into a Political Discussion on the differences between South Carolina and Hawaii let me just say that when we vacation we are getting away from the cold months of November to April in New York.  
We like daytimes in the 70's or above and nights no lower than 60.  Honolulu is our place, not South Carolina.  Also, the direct flight from JFK to Honolulu takes about 10 hours.  We have been staying about 4 months for a number of years with plans on staying at least 6 months from this year forward.  After that amount of time you forget that it took 10 hours to get there and will be another 10 hours to return.


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## OldGuy (Jun 22, 2019)

LannyPC said:


> Good for you that you found something like that.  Unfortunately that describes a very small minority of the timeshares and intervals out there.  I don't have the stats to back this up and researching this to get accurate figures would be a very arduous process but, from observation, it appears that the majority of intervals out there fall into the category of MFs higher than what could easily be recouped in rentals.
> 
> If that is the case, then I can see the truth behind the OP's title of this thread.  I guess that also explains why there are so many timeshare exit/cancel/relief companies out there.  It would also explain why we get so many newcomers on these boards (seems like weekly) asking how to dump their TSs.



We own a 2-bedroom Gold Crown, peak summer (week 28) in a popular family vacation destination.  I have been renting it out for 10 years.  I have never been able to get as much as our annual fee.  Right now the fee is $800, and I can get it rented for $599, which I have to someone here this year.

At another resort we only had a $400 fee for a Spring Break ski week, and thru the ORP we have only been able to get less than $200 back, when they rent it.  I have about 20 years history there.  27 years history with a summer week there, which is also a peak season.

At a SW FL beachfront resort where we own a Week 1 Snowbird week where our fee is $503, we are able to get $700 thru the ORP, when they rent it.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jun 22, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> We own a 2-bedroom Gold Crown, peak summer (week 28) in a popular family vacation destination.  I have been renting it out for 10 years.  I have never been able to get as much as our annual fee.  Right now the fee is $800, and I can get it rented for $599, which I have to someone here this year.
> 
> At another resort we only had a $400 fee for a Spring Break ski week, and thru the ORP we have only been able to get less than $200 back, when they rent it.  I have about 20 years history there.  27 years history with a summer week there, which is also a peak season.
> 
> At a SW FL beachfront resort where we own a Week 1 Snowbird week where our fee is $503, we are able to get $700 thru the ORP, when they rent it.


With all resorts that we own, our annual fees are significantly less than what the nightly rates are at the resort on sites such as Expedia or hotels.com, or via direct booking at the resort. For a number of years I made a decent rate of return (~20% ROI) on my Raintree Vacation Clubs membership, using it for rentals, until the 2008 crash.

Of course, a rule of thumb is that if you are an owner doing rentals, you need to rent for less than the prices at such booking sites.  Otherwise, if the prices are the same, people are going to rent from the "known" entity.  So it's to be expected that there may be owners who put units up for rent at discounted rates.  But those will be isolated. 

The big change is the rise of AirBnB and the HomeAway network.  While specific resorts might show up occasionally -with specific check-in and check-out days -there are many people who offering their accommodations at cheaper rates. Even for ourselves, when we haven't been able to find accommodations via direct booking with our ownerships or timeshare exchange, we've booked using VRBO and AirBnB at very favorable rates - less than the MFs on weeks that we were trying to use for exchange.

We got involved in TS in 1999.  If AirBnB and HomeAway had existed then, we would not have bought timeshare.  And when we talk with our kids about whether they want us to pass any of our timeshares, their response always is to the effect of "Why, when we can use AirBnB and HomeAway?"


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## Talent312 (Jun 23, 2019)

Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!
Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...
The dead rising from the grave!
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!
-- "Ghostbusters" (1984) --


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## OldGuy (Jun 23, 2019)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> We got involved in TS in 1999.  If AirBnB and HomeAway had existed then, we would not have bought timeshare.  And when we talk with our kids about whether they want us to pass any of our timeshares, their response always is to the effect of "Why, when we can use AirBnB and HomeAway?"



Yeah, a lot more options since we got started, too.  The times they are a'changin'.

As I said recently, many millennials are adverse to owning and ongoing commitments, in favor of more options and choice.


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## OldGuy (Jun 23, 2019)

Back in the day, 2005, only one place was saying the sky is falling:

https://www.timesharetrap.com/

Now, the Internet is full of people saying the same thing.

But, as long as there's still some sky up there . . . .


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## Glynda (Jun 23, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> I know.  That is one which you will need to ask HGVC about.  I have never been nor do I intend on go to South Carolina.



Hilton is building a new one in Charleston, SC. The right time of year, Charleston is fabulous.


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## tonyg (Jun 24, 2019)

Nice to have my home resort at full occupancy during my week 23 stay. More owners need to get involved with resort management and management needs to innovate to keep or increase performing units. Deed back programs with a fee solve the problem of owners getting out of timesharing - get your resort to start one if they don't have one and have an in-house resale program. Find ways to get non-performing weeks back to performing. Somewhere along the line for one or many reasons we all will no longer need our timeshares and many of us knew this early on in the game. I bought several units at my home resort on EBAY for next to nothing, but I now see none being listed (only 1 in the past year). I think the cause is the deed back program and owners finally getting the message that there was such an out at the resort. Financial trouble does not hit all of a sudden, there will be many signs long before the sky falls in, if it ever does.


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## Tamaradarann (Jun 24, 2019)

tonyg said:


> Nice to have my home resort at full occupancy during my week 23 stay. More owners need to get involved with resort management and management needs to innovate to keep or increase performing units. Deed back programs with a fee solve the problem of owners getting out of timesharing - get your resort to start one if they don't have one and have an in-house resale program. Find ways to get non-performing weeks back to performing. Somewhere along the line for one or many reasons we all will no longer need our timeshares and many of us knew this early on in the game. I bought several units at my home resort on EBAY for next to nothing, but I now see none being listed (only 1 in the past year). I think the cause is the deed back program and owners finally getting the message that there was such an out at the resort. Financial trouble does not hit all of a sudden, there will be many signs long before the sky falls in, if it ever does.



Lifetime in Hawaii in Honolulu has a program for the units that they either bought back or reacquired due to foreclosure.  In order to get the weeks sold with maintenance fee paying owners, they are offering weeks at $1000 each.  If you buy 2 you get the 3rd for free.  That is 3 weeks of timeshare for $2,000 and the maintenance is less than $700/week.  These are floating weeks with no season.  Hawaii does have year round attraction so even if you can't reserve a summer or winter week the spring and the fall are also great for vacationing.  

I believe for locations that DON'T have year round attraction, the low value periods will always be a struggle to get anywhere near full occupancy.  I don't have any solution that can get people to go during those periods.


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## OldGuy (Jun 24, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> Lifetime in Hawaii in Honolulu has a program for the units that they either bought back or reacquired due to foreclosure.  In order to get the weeks sold with maintenance fee paying owners, they are offering weeks at $1000 each.  If you buy 2 you get the 3rd for free.  That is 3 weeks of timeshare for $2,000 and the maintenance is less than $700/week.  These are floating weeks with no season.  Hawaii does have year round attraction so even if you can't reserve a summer or winter week the spring and the fall are also great for vacationing.



Nice!

Retail resale weeks at our old resort that is proactive go for a pretty stable $1500-2000, but association-owned weeks go for $700.  They generally get $900 when they rent association-owned weeks (more than the $503 annual fee), $225 commission when they rent owners' weeks (on top of the $503 they already got, and offer association-owned weeks for rent to owners for $503.  All of that adds up to significant income, thus the fairly-low $503 annual fee.  When they rent owners' weeks, owners receive $700.

Several owners have a month or more in Snowbird season, and $2000/month is about half the going rate for beachfront in the area.

It helps that there are year-round day rights for local owners.

In a worst case scenario (like last year because of Red Tide) our Snowbird week did not get rented, so we got year-round beach access, swimming pool, hot tub, BBQ grills, etc. for $503.  The other "beach club" we are eligible for doesn't have anywhere near that, costs more, and has a waiting list.

I keep thinking I'll dig through and take a look at the last financial, and maybe I will, some day.

They could be a little more up-to-date when it comes to promotion and communication (no email or texting), but it is on the Internet, and there is a resale broker, too.


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## Panina (Jun 24, 2019)

I own at a southwest Florida resort where if you put you week up for sale for $500 through their sales department  and it doesn’t sell in 6 months, you can pay $375 and the association takes it back.  You can’t list it for less then $500.


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## OldGuy (Jun 24, 2019)

Panina said:


> I own at a southwest Florida resort where if you put you week up for sale for $500 through their sales department  and it doesn’t sell in 6 months, you can pay $375 and the association takes it back.  You can’t list it for less then $500.



Give me about 25 guesses and I will guess which one.


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## escanoe (Jun 24, 2019)

Panina said:


> I own at a southwest Florida resort where if you put you week up for sale for $500 through their sales department  and it doesn’t sell in 6 months, you can pay $375 and the association takes it back.  You can’t list it for less then $500.



I wonder is if they ever sell on eBay for $500 with a bonus prepaid Visa included?


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## CanuckTravlr (Jun 24, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> I know.  That is one which you will need to ask HGVC about.  I have never been nor do I intend on go to South Carolina.



That's OK, different options for different preferences.  We love spending time in South Carolina, especially in shoulder season.  And it is much closer to home than Florida, especially if we are driving.  Not that we don't love Hawaii, too!


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## bogey21 (Jun 25, 2019)

A lot of this could have been avoided a long time ago if things had been set up with differential MFs depending on the Season you bought; i.e low MFs for less desirable Weeks and higher MFs for more desirable Weeks...

George


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## OldGuy (Jun 25, 2019)

escanoe said:


> I wonder is if they ever sell on eBay for $500 with a bonus prepaid Visa included?



Even for the 40-year-old SW FL resorts, it's hard to imagine any of them having to _resort _ to that.

I can't speak for all of them, but for the ones I am familiar with, they have resale agents, some on-site, and/or a system of publicizing owners' weeks for sale, and owners who are looking for more weeks for themselves and friends/family.

Being where they are, in SW FL on or near the beach/water, is 90% of the draw.


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## Panina (Jun 25, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> A lot of this could have been avoided a long time ago if things had been set up with differential MFs depending on the Season you bought; i.e low MFs for less desirable Weeks and higher MFs for more desirable Weeks...
> 
> George


Those who have prime weeks paid more when they purchased. To maintain a unit costs the same no matter what the season.  What differs is taxes.  I own at a timeshare that my mf is higher in prime time because my taxes are higher


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## bogey21 (Jun 25, 2019)

I guess my point is that fewer Owners with undesirable Weeks would be walking away if their annual MFs were lower...

George


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## Panina (Jun 25, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> I guess my point is that fewer Owners with undesirable Weeks would be walking away if their annual MFs were lower...
> 
> George


I got the point but fairness is also a consideration.  How much lower could it be $100, $200 $300?  They probably would walk away too.

Some of my older resorts have set up a rental program for the hoa owned weeks successfully. Many people travel off season and having a timeshare unit instead of a hotel room is attractive to rent if at a competitive price.


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## rapmarks (Jun 25, 2019)

Panina said:


> Those who have prime weeks paid more when they purchased. To maintain a unit costs the same no matter what the season.  What differs is taxes.  I own at a timeshare that my mf is higher in prime time because my taxes are higher


How does this work, never heard of this.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jun 25, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> A lot of this could have been avoided a long time ago if things had been set up with differential MFs depending on the Season you bought; i.e low MFs for less desirable Weeks and higher MFs for more desirable Weeks...
> 
> George


That's one of the reasons that points systems work.  Own fewer points - pay less annual fee.


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## bluehende (Jun 25, 2019)

Panina said:


> I got the point but fairness is also a consideration.  How much lower could it be $100, $200 $300?  They probably would walk away too.
> 
> Some of my older resorts have set up a rental program for the hoa owned weeks successfully. Many people travel off season and having a timeshare unit instead of a hotel room is attractive to rent if at a competitive price.



Which side you fall under in this debate is whether you consider your MF as a cost of ownership or a cost of use.  The industry is set up as a cost of ownership in fact making it illegal to charge varying amounts in a lot of states.  My purchases have always been based on the value of use so feel that the rental rate is a better comparison.  There are not enough resorts that change varying fees depending on season to be able to do the experiment as to whether that would be healthier or not for the industry and resorts.  The advent of points does do this somewhat and I believe the general rule of thumb here is that most like points.  Of course there is no way to coax out if the advantage is more flexibility in destination as opposed to flexibility of season.


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## bluehende (Jun 25, 2019)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> That's one of the reasons that points systems work.  Own fewer points - pay less annual fee.



You beat me by a few seconds.


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## OldGuy (Jun 25, 2019)

bluehende said:


> My purchases have always been based on the value of use so feel that the rental rate is a better comparison.



Back in the day I used to contend that rental rates were a good tool to determine equal exchanges, so that a studio unit some places at some times was equivalent to a two-bedroom at some place some times . . . but there wasn't much support for that.


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## OldGuy (Jun 25, 2019)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Own fewer - pay less annual fee.


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## Panina (Jun 25, 2019)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> That's one of the reasons that points systems work.  Own fewer points - pay less annual fee.


No, not in HGVC.  You can have less points due to season and still pay the same maintenance fees.


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## rapmarks (Jun 25, 2019)

I added up my total cost of purchasing timeshares including closing costs.  I disposed of all my timeshares.  I did get one gifted this year that I use, don’t deposit.
I divided my total costs by number of times I used, exchanged or bought an extra vacation.  My cost amounted to under $10 per week I used.  I can’t complain.

Now that I refigured it, more like 6 or 7 dollars per week


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jun 25, 2019)

Panina said:


> No, not in HGVC.  You can have less points due to season and still pay the same maintenance fees.


Then that's not truly a points system.  In a points system you own points, and season is irrelevant. Use more points at peak time, use fewer points off-season.  And your mf is $/pt.


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## JohnPaul (Jun 25, 2019)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Then that's not truly a points system.  In a points system you own points, and season is irrelevant. Use more points at peak time, use fewer points off-season.  And your mf is $/pt.



Agree.  I call that a hybrid point system - points layered onto weeks.


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## Tamaradarann (Jun 25, 2019)

rapmarks said:


> I added up my total cost of purchasing timeshares including closing costs.  I disposed of all my timeshares.  I did get one gifted this year that I use, don’t deposit.
> I divided my total costs by number of times I used, exchanged or bought an extra vacation.  My cost amounted to under $10 per week I used.  I can’t complain.



That sounds almost unbelievable.  Could you detail some of your calculations?


bluehende said:


> Which side you fall under in this debate is whether you consider your MF as a cost of ownership or a cost of use.  The industry is set up as a cost of ownership in fact making it illegal to charge varying amounts in a lot of states.  My purchases have always been based on the value of use so feel that the rental rate is a better comparison.  There are not enough resorts that change varying fees depending on season to be able to do the experiment as to whether that would be healthier or not for the industry and resorts.  The advent of points does do this somewhat and I believe the general rule of thumb here is that most like points.  Of course there is no way to coax out if the advantage is more flexibility in destination as opposed to flexibility of season.



The fact that you pay the same maintenance for prime weeks as for off season weeks but more points or exchange power was never emphasized when you buy.  Particularly when you buy from the developer at the table.  They use the off season weeks to enable them to lower the price so you buy and think you getting a good deal since your getting the timeshare for less money.  I remember the one resort we did buy from the table the sales person emphasized that since we were buying a red season gold crown week that you never will be staying in gold crown resorts.  I remember the first time share we bought that we cancelled right away was an II VALUE week.  We didn't know what that meant, but when we found out that it was off season and we wanted to use the timeshare during prime season we couldn't cancel it quick enough.


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## rapmarks (Jun 25, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> That sounds almost unbelievable.  Could you detail some of your calculations?
> 
> 
> Two resale timeshares paid 1200 in 1991 used twenty years, sold for five hundred, and another udi timeshare I got for closing cost, used a year and a half, made 25 deposits with it, gave it back.  .  Over two hundred stays at home resort, trades and extra vacation from 1991 to 2019, equals ten or less cost of ownership per week I got out of being a timeshare owners.  In 1991 they were not giving timeshares away.  It wasn’t til a few years later I discovered I overpaid.  I am sure there are many here who sunk less into their timeshare acquisition.
> ...


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## dioxide45 (Jun 25, 2019)

rapmarks said:


> How does this work, never heard of this.


It is a Florida thing. The property tax allocated to each week is based on the season you own. So lesser seasons pay lower property tax on their unit/week. Some other states (like California or the USVI) bill property taxes separately and base it on valuation or purchase price.


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## Tamaradarann (Jun 26, 2019)

You are just calculating your cost of purchase and selling of the timeshares that you owned, not the Maintenance Costs, Exchange Costs, or Extra Vacation Costs.  Using just the cost of purchase the my HGVC timeshares that I purchased resale from 2006-2009 the cost would be less than $40/night and going down each year.  (since we stay as much as 4 months in one stay I can't calculate per stay).  I haven't sold them yet so I don't know what that might bring in to lower the initial purchase cost.  I usually don't think of my value of purchasing the timeshare in those terms.  I use the cost of the hotels if we needed to pay for those for all the nights we stay in a timeshare.   The cost over those years would be about $400,000.


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## rapmarks (Jun 26, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> You are just calculating your cost of purchase and selling of the timeshares that you owned, not the Maintenance Costs, Exchange Costs, or Extra Vacation Costs.  Using just the cost of purchase the my HGVC timeshares that I purchased resale from 2006-2009 the cost would be less than $40/night and going down each year.  (since we stay as much as 4 months in one stay I can't calculate per stay).  I haven't sold them yet so I don't know what that might bring in to lower the initial purchase cost.  I usually don't think of my value of purchasing the timeshare in those terms.  I use the cost of the hotels if we needed to pay for those for all the nights we stay in a timeshare.   The cost over those years would be about $400,000.


Right, I said I could add that to the cost.  I purchased when timeshares still had a resale value, and I am basically at the end of my timesharing.  My cost per trip would be artificially lower as exchange fee was lower and maintenance fee lower in the nineties.  But I am saying the cost of owning a timeshare worked out to be negligible by the time I got out.  And I think that there are many with lower sink costs than me.  
Back in 2002 and 2003 I only owned two weeks.  I received some rci special vacation certificates for $129 for a week.  I exchanged into New Orleans and Biloxi then did ten straight bonus weeks in sw Florida along the coast until we found our home.  Couldn’t do that now in terms of cost or availability.  I think people who purchased resale after 2007 probably will eventually exit with only the sunk cost of closing cost.  No one was giving away timeshares when we originally bought in.


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## rapmarks (Jun 26, 2019)

We have some friends we have invited many times to join us in key west, Marco island, siesta key, Palm beach, and other places.  They usually won’t come even though it is a short drive.  They insist timeshares are a big scam, there is no possible way they work financially.  They just laugh at me as if I were naive when I explain about the cost.  They don’t bother to listen to any details.


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## geist1223 (Jun 26, 2019)

rapmarks said:


> We have some friends we have invited many times to join us in key west, Marco island, siesta key, Palm beach, and other places.  They usually won’t come even though it is a short drive.  They insist timeshares are a big scam, there is no possible way they work financially.  They just laugh at me as if I were naive when I explain about the cost.  They don’t bother to listen to any details.



I remember when Patti and I first bought in to Timesharing together she contacted her Financial Advisor to have money transferred to her Checking Account to pay her half. Her Financial Advisor was very upset and down on timeshares. After a few years and a couple trips (Hawaii and Australia) with us she admitted she was wrong. She said we were using our timeshare to the Max and that for us it was a good purchase.


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## Tamaradarann (Jun 26, 2019)

geist1223 said:


> I remember when Patti and I first bought in to Timesharing together she contacted her Financial Advisor to have money transferred to her Checking Account to pay her half. Her Financial Advisor was very upset and down on timeshares. After a few years and a couple trips (Hawaii and Australia) with us she admitted she was wrong. She said we were using our timeshare to the Max and that for us it was a good purchase.



Whether timesharing is a good purchase depends on the life goals that you want with your purchase.  The cost of the timeshare and maintenance fees are obviously important.  However, some other things to consider are:  1.Where do you want to vacation?  2.How many weeks a year do you want to vacation?  3.How many people will be vacationing?  4.How long is the timeline ford you have to vacation.  5.What will you do with the timeshare after you no longer plan on vacationing?  6.If you are going to let your children inherit the timeshare, do they want it and will they pay the maintenance fee?  7. Can you sell them when you are finished vacationing:  

Our initial cost was about 60K.  Our maintenance is about 6K/year.  We have been able to use our timeshares to vacation in Hawaii for many months for the last 12 years which would have cost over $30,000/year if we didn't own timeshares.  Therefore, we feel we have been successful in accomplishing 1-4 in our list already.  As far as 5-7 since we don't have any takers in our family at this time, we hope to be able to sell them when we are through which is one of the concerns that we have with our purchase.


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## OldGuy (Jun 26, 2019)

All owners pay the same at our Florida resort, this year $503.


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## tonyg (Jun 27, 2019)

Does that fee include taxes and is it for all unit sizes - what unit size if there is more than one ? Sounds pretty good, but perhaps not any better than my resort.


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## OldGuy (Jun 27, 2019)

Both 1 and 2 bedroom units.


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## bogey21 (Jun 27, 2019)

I just finished reading 3 posts ahead of this one.  One was someone potentially losing their Wyndham pooled points; another was someone not knowing that Diamond could rent out their Week if they didn't confirm it; and a third was a discussion about the Marriott Points skim.  These all require staying on top of what you own.  The thought that crosses my mind  is how do non Tuggers manage all this stuff...

George


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## OldGuy (Jun 27, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> The thought that crosses my mind  is how do non Tuggers manage all this stuff...
> 
> George



_ignorance is bliss
phrase of ignorance
PROVERB
if you do not know about something, you do not worry about it._


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## tonyg (Jun 28, 2019)

Or as the prince in Mad Magazine said "What, Me Worry".


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## tonyg (Jun 29, 2019)

Well that's an odd wrinkle - same cost for one or two bedroom. You failed to mention if taxes were included and how much, if so. You also seem to be avoiding telling us what resort that you own - what is it ?


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## OldGuy (Jun 29, 2019)

Who, me?

$503 is it.

$503.

Period.

No more of anything.

It's a resort only it's mother would love, and the owners like it that way.

- - - - - -

Something interesting (to me) . . . I decided to take a look at the financial statements for the three resorts we owned at in 2018, to see how (if) their different management styles affected the finances.

The first, and most, interesting thing is that two of the resorts do not provide a financial statement, or a full budget, just a breakdown of the annual fee (how much goes for what), and one of the resorts doesn't even do that.

I'm shocked that any resort would not report the finances to owners.

The one that does, provides last year's budget, the coming year's budget, and a detailed breakdown of every penny from every account, a breakdown of the reserve schedule, and more, all of that coming as an annual audit from an outside firm.

It's too late to get into tonight, as I have an early and big day tomorrow.

So, how many of you get a financial statement, or budget, from your resort(s)?


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## missyrcrews (Jun 29, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Who, me?
> 
> $503 is it.
> 
> ...



I do.  It comes in our annual letter, is shown/discussed/voted upon at our annual meeting, and it's also available to owners online.  I could get the annual audit if I wanted a copy.  Pretty transparent...as it should be.


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## tonyg (Jun 30, 2019)

We vote on a proposed budget at our annual meeting or via snail mail. I don't know if a budget has ever been voted down - but I do remember voting against one. But, I think you are heading us off track and we should get back to the "coming" demise of timesharing. I can understand why you are reluctant to provide details.


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## Tamaradarann (Jun 30, 2019)

tonyg said:


> We vote on a proposed budget at our annual meeting or via snail mail. I don't know if a budget has ever been voted down - but I do remember voting against one. But, I think you are heading us off track and we should get back to the "coming" demise of timesharing. I can understand why you are reluctant to provide details.



Old Guy keeps talking about his resort having only $503 annual maintenance fees, but he won't tell us what resort it is.  I can't tell why he is not providing details.  However, when I read that tonyg said "I can understand why you are reluctant to provide details" I couldn't help but think about what Dana Carvey kept saying in a Saturday Night Live skit:  "Is it Satan"


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## SmithOp (Jun 30, 2019)

Well if only its mother could love it I imagine its Chateau Le Dump.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## OldGuy (Jun 30, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> I can't tell why he is not providing details.



1.  TUG Kiss of Death
2.  What does it matter?
3.  See 1.

We have owned 3 weeks since 1992 at one resort that does not provide a financial statement and as many as four weeks since 12 years ago at the other resort that does not provide a financial statement, and I never realized that they have never provided one.

I had a rough day at work, but I intend to take a look at exactly where the money's going on the two I have some information about, one being just a breakdown of the annual fee (which I've already noticed a little surprise).

This may seem a little off-topic, but all three resorts are independent, legacy resorts, and they go about running things differently, so it does work into the topic.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jun 30, 2019)

SmithOp said:


> Well if only its mother could love it I imagine its Chateau Le Dump.


or Mugwump Towers at Slimy Slough.


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## tonyg (Jun 30, 2019)

I miss Kurt Brown and boiled pizza too.


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