# Converting TS to SP may be good for Air Line Miledge junkee



## dabo_gc (Aug 20, 2009)

Hello folks,

Please give me your comments on my silly idea.

I don't own any starwoods TS but sometimes I feel I want to own some of them just for Starpoints.

Many folks say converting TS to Starpoints is not worth thousands of dollars, but for me, it looks GREAT idea.  

At SPG program, I can convert 1 SP to 1 Japan Air Lines Mile. If 20,000 SP at a time, I can get 5,000 bonus totally 25,000 JAL miles. I sometimes buy SP when I need additional miles. It costs US$0.035/SP and US$0.028/JALmile.

In April, I had a trip to Asia; Australia-Japan-HongKong-Japan-Australia, and to get the free air tickets I used only 70,000 JAL miles. They were EXECUTIVE CLASS and to buy them in cash, it might cost me around US$8,000 even in discounted price (50,000 JAL miles or around US$3,500 in economy class)(JAL conversion ratio of mile/ticket is VERY good). :whoopie: 

How much is the common MF/SP ratio ?

I found that WKV offers the best MF/SO. MF $1,252,76 gives me 148,100 SO which could be converted into 81,000 SP. Is this correct? If yes, the cost of a SP would be US$0.015466(US$0.035 if buying in cash). Since they could be converted to 101,250 JAL miles, one JALmile cost become US$0.01237(US$0.028 when buying SP in cash and convert in JALmile).    

Finally, MF $1,252,76 of 2BR WKV is worth me more than US$10,000 every other year.   If this calculation is correct, double MF is still acceptable. 

Buying 2 WKV TSes(resale) and another two cheap TSes from developer to retro WKVs and convert half of them every year (convert each of them every other year) seems VERY cost effective for me. 

Also, I'm interested in SPG Elite status. I don't know much about SPG Platinum but Intercontinental Royal Ambassador & Platinum which I am very pleased to keep and use. Every time I stay at hotels in Intercontinental hotel group, I reserve the cheapest room but they 80% assign me Jr. Suite or executive floor room (even free mini bar) which normally costs around two to three times of the room rate I pay. If SPG platinum is almost the same as Royal Ambassador & Platinum in Intercontinental Group, I would like to try it.

Is there anybody who ever calculated simulation to get SPG Platinum status (*5) in the cheapest way ? Which TSes to choose ? How much was total cost and MF ?

Can I convert two TS every year to SP, when I have four ?

How would you think about this kind of silly idea ? Or is my calculation incorrect? 

One big problem is nobody knows when they change their policy. :annoyed: 


Best regards,

dabo


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2009)

> Is there anybody who ever calculated simulation to get SPG Platinum status (*5) in the cheapest way ? Which TSes to choose ? How much was total cost and MF ?




There are 2 _extensive threads _on this topic in Starwood Owner Resources, at the top of the forum.


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## Joshadelic (Aug 20, 2009)

$8000 for a plane ticket?  I have some ocean front property in Nebraska I'd like to sell you!


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## K2Quick (Aug 20, 2009)

dabo_gc said:


> I found that WKV offers the best MF/SO. MF $1,252,76 gives me 148,100 SO which could be converted into 81,000 SP. Is this correct? If yes, the cost of a SP would be US$0.015466(US$0.035 if buying in cash). Since they could be converted to 101,250 JAL miles, one JALmile cost become US$0.01237(US$0.028 when buying SP in cash and convert in JALmile).



Not to rain on your parade, but you can't ignore the foregone income on the amount you have to spend to buy the timeshare.  Assuming you pay $15,000 for a WKV interest and can get a 5% return on your invested cash, you are also giving up $750 a year in foregone interest income.  That should be added to the MF of $1,253 for a total annual cost of about $2,000.  Your cost for those points is now about 2.5 cents each.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 20, 2009)

Hi dabo - problem (for me) is that it is just too confusing to follow the thread - sounds like you have already convinced yourself.  That should be your first sign that something is amiss.

Regardless... you can use fuzzy (timeshare) math to calculate the SO-SP conversion to an advantage (which is what the salespeople do), and there is certainly some advantage because of the flexibility of the SO-SP conversion - but that is mainly for people who are 5* Elite/Plat for Life since it has more value to them and they have more SOs than they know what to do with (in many cases)...

But to buy a SVO Timeshare from SVO for the sole purpose of converting SOs to SPs...!!!??? Really?  Please give me scenerio where this works out for you - and in that scenerio please consider the cost of the purchase and annual MFs.  In turn - I will give you many options (TS-wise) on a better use of money.

In order to get the ability for a SO-SP conversion you will need to buy from SVO. What current resort would you buy that give sufficient SOs with a good conversion rate - because WKV is not being sold by SVO - you can only get it resale, and resale SOs cannot be converted to SPs?  How about using Cancun (Laganamar) as an example? As it has one of the lowest prices with relatively lowest MFs.  It is going to cost >$20K to do this and get adequate SO to convert to SPs - and do not forget about the MFs...

And at the end of the day - the Lagunamar VOI will be worth less if it is ever to be resold (a loss of over 50% easy...).

If you are serious and want to proceed - then I suggest you get all the way to 5*/PFL by purchasing resale and requalifying with SVO purchases (as cheap as possible) - to get the most advantage. And it still would be be arguable that this is not worth it (unless money and vacation time is no object - then go for it).

added:  it is more valuable to requal a V resort than an M resort.

also - you discussion seems to hinge on what something is worth - not what you are willing to pay - the fuzzy math comes into play here.  I had a TS salesperson argue with me that us buying another EOY at WPORV that it would essentially pay for itself using the SO-SP conversion.  Their fuzzy math used us buying 2 1st class tickets to Rome and a 5 nite stay in a 7-star resort at a cost of $28,000! Problem is that I would never spend $28K for this - nor did they account for the cost of the WPORv VOI or the loss that occurs when it is attempted to be resold (which they would argue that they are nor intended on being resold) - also no mention of the MFs going up year after year.


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## jarta (Aug 20, 2009)

dabo_gc,   ...   US Air had a promotion in July where, if you deposited 1/1 hotel points from Starwood, US Air would add 50% to whatever was deposited.

I hate US Air and try to avoid flying that airline.  However, US Air is in the Star Alliance.

I needed 3 round trip business class (it's an 11+ hour flight!) tickets from Chicago to Istanbul next summer.  They sell for over $5K each at Turkish Airlines, another Star Alliance airline.  However, they can be had with 80K air miles (each) through Turkish Airlines' alliance partners.  I needed 240K air miles.

I set up a US Air miles account and registered for the promotion.  3 times I transferred out 60K Starpoints to US Air.  Starwood added its 20% bonus to the transfer and I deposited 225K miles in the US Air account.  US Air increased them to 327.5K air miles.

I bought the 3 round trip business class tickets ($15K value) with 240K air miles and have alot of air miles left over.  At times, being able to convert Staroptions to Starpoints makes good economic sense, although the Starpoints were already in my SPG account - mainly from earlier purchases.  But I guess, like anything else, you have to plan it all out.  My plan worked.  Pretty unusual result for me!  lol!

My cost to get to 5 Star Elite was about $140K.  But, I wanted to have a Platinum 3-br at Harborside in the mix and all my other weeks are Platinum 2-brs.  I think it can be done cheaper than $140K in this economy if you buy your non-developer weeks at voluntary resorts.  I like mandatory resorts in case I decide to sell the units later.  But, they are more expensive.   ...   eom


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## Captron (Aug 20, 2009)

The other comment in the calculation was "Cheap" developer units. In order to retro other units, assuming you can buy 148k units resale right now.... it takes $10k on the continent and $20k off to retro.... if you use Lagunamar that means you need to add at least $40k to your calculations plus about $30k for the platinum 148k units resale.That makes things a little less favorable in my eyes. 

How often would you be able to use the JAL leverage anyway? Things seem to hinge on that and unless you have family you want to see EVERY YEAR for the next 20......

I still think I would take the $190k and use it elsewhere....


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## calgarygary (Aug 20, 2009)

dabo, I don't want to burst that bubble of enthusiasm you have but there are some very knowledgeable posters here on TUG.  People who own timeshares with Starwood and also other systems.  Some, like jarta will occasionally come across a situation where a sp conversion makes economic sense and some who will do an sp conversion out of necessity to retain some value to their use year.  I have only been posting here on tug for a few years but I have yet to come across a single experienced starwood owner that buys from the developer for the sole purpose of sp conversion.  These starwood owners travel a lot, they have done the math many times over, take their advice and don't jump into svn for the sole purpose of sp conversion.  Finally, in your own words: *"One big problem is nobody knows when they change their policy."*  Some of these posters have learned the hard way about Starwood changing the rules without notice and that could certainly include converting sp's into miles.


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## jarta (Aug 20, 2009)

gary,   ...   Actually, it depends on where and how you want to travel.  I use Starwood timeshares for vacationing with friends and family in and close by the US.  However, once a year my wife and I like to go somewhere exotic for a cruise or just get far away from the US for 2-3 weeks.

To catch up to a boat that is in Istanbul, or Singapore, or Dubai, or Buenos Aires takes a long flight from the US and coach seats can get terribly uncomfortable, but business class is usually very expensive.  (Remember, I'm broke!  I spent all that money getting to 5 Star!  lol!)  Trading Starpoints for air miles, as I did this summer or using Starpoints for Level 5-7 Starwood hotels reduces that cost.  Of course, in Europe or other exotic places, the Starpoints have much more hotel value than in the US - even without the Elite upgrades.

We have many more people here on TUG who buy low and voluntary in Starwood, don't care about Elite privileges and trade wherever they want to go using II.  It's OK to do that.  I used II myself last year by making a reservation using "left over" Staroptions in late September, depositing a small Starwood 1-br in Shoulder Season and getting a larger 1-br next year in Platinum Season.  So, II works.

But, except for the two Four Seasons timeshares, Troon North and Aviara, there is not much else in that II book of timeshares that appeals to me to trade into - except other Starwood places.  But, that's me.

I *must* add something.  The information I got from TUG saved me at least $40K in getting to 5 Star Elite.  Thank you TUGGERS.  There is a lot of good and useful information posted on TUG.

Finally, we do have 5 Star Elites who post here on TUG.  And, they are not usually the ones making noise about how shabbily Starwood treats them.  That's because Starwood treats them very well and rewards the investment made with Starwood.  In the end, you have to decide how want to you vacation and act accordingly.  One size does not fit all.      ...   eom


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## dabo_gc (Aug 20, 2009)

Thank you very much for your comments.

I just think like this.

1 I need US$30,000 value of air tickets for two every year.
2 I can use miles for tickets US$15,000 equivalent.
3 How can I reduce cost of remaining US$15,000 worth tickets which I pay in cash every year ? Or what shall I do if we want to travel more ?

Please don't tell me to stay home and watch TV.  

Anyway, this is the start of my idea.

1 Using Japan Air Lines Mileage Program is very important part of my idea. Value of A mile is almost double compare with other air lines. For example, Australa-Japan round trip executive ticket costs me only 60,000 JAL miles but more than 120,000 in Qantas. If I buy discount ticket in cash, it costs more than AU$4,000 per person. 

2 I didn't know the resale price of WKV, nor developer price of cheap TS to retro WKV. Any way, if it is correct that I can get 81,000 SP from 1 WKV and MF is $1,252,76, it is worth me more than US$10,000 because of HIGH value of JAL mile. 

3 My investment portfolio gives me 7% anual. If I need to invest 150k to do this plan, interest I lose would be ONLY US$10,500. How many SP can I get from 150k TSes ? 300K ? 400K? Please don't forget that even 81K SP is worth me US$10,000. Actually, I don't think I need that much and get SPG platinum (*5), though.

Spending 200,000 miles per year is not so hard for me and my wife, but it is almost impossible for me to earn 200,000 miles every year by actual flight or using Credit Card.

So, if I could get large amount of SP, buying Starwood TSes for miles is NOT a joke for me. Instead, If I can buy air mile under US$0.03/mile, I am happy to buy 200,000 miles every year.

Can imagine that 240,000SP is enough for me to cover US$30,000 worth air fare ? For folks who says that SP is not worth, 240,00SP might be worth less than US$10,000, I guess.

My biggest problem is always air fare. If I can get $1,000 week at the best resort in Florida, I still have to pay around $15,000 air fare for two of us to get there. Or 120,000 SP is enough to get free tickets.

Even if my calculation is correct, I don't think I'm going to spend 150k just for this idea. I know this is not realistic and idiot to buy TSes just for miles. But it is hard for me to throw this idea out of my head.


dabo


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## RoshiGuy (Aug 20, 2009)

DavidnRobin said:


> But to buy a SVO Timeshare from SVO for the sole purpose of converting SOs to SPs...!!!??? Really?  Please give me scenerio where this works out for you - and in that scenerio please consider the cost of the purchase and annual MFs.  In turn - I will give you many options (TS-wise) on a better use of money.



The overwhelming feeling here on TUG is that converting to SPs makes no sense. What people are missing is that it depends on how you use SPs. Also, one cannot simply buy SPs from Starwood; this is limited to 20000/year. And getting a AMEX Starwood card can add to this but for most people it will not be a huge amount of SPs.

I have an upcoming trip to Aruba (Westin) where my SPs yield is 6c+ at current Starwood pre-paid rates. 40,000 SPs for 5 nights where the pre-paid room rate (incl. taxes) is over $2500. While I would not pay the $2500 rate, I'd pay $1600 (peak season) so my implied SP value is 4c. If you can use SPs to get international business class seats; hotels overseas or during peak periods, then yes, it can make sense to buy to convert. Again, it depends on how much value you extract/place in your SPs.

For example, a Plat SDO (resale) + an EOY WLM/WDW (developer) would cost approx. $25K. Developer SP incentives for the purchase bring down the real cost. I believe you can get ~100K SPs for the purchase plus the option to buy ~200K+ at discounted rates (2c/SP). Let's "assume" the value of SPs at 4c. YMMV ... but this is reasonable for people who are looking to maximize their SPs. So the $25K outlay is reduced by $8K - net cost of $17K.

Annual MF is ~$1600 plus assume 5% (carrying cost) on the $17K outlay ($850/year). Taking this a step further let's assume that the developer purchase loses half it's value and amortize this over a 10-year period ($1000/year). So the total annual cost is ~$3500 for 100K SPs which are worth $4000.

Does this work for a lot of people? Of course not. By the same token saying that buying to convert into SPs makes no sense is simply not right.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 20, 2009)

:rofl: 

what can i say - i tried

btw - i am about to use 225K SPs for a trip to Europe - (5 nites x 3; London-Park Lane; AMS-Hotel Pultizerand Paris-Westin - all with SP upgrades) - and I did this without SO-SP conversion.  In fact - I only have 1 EOY (WPORV) that can even be converted to SPs - as all the others I bought resale (Mandatory) and saved $10000s compared to SVO prices.

best of luck - buy away - someone need to support the SVO/SVN infrastructure


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## Joshadelic (Aug 21, 2009)

dabo_gc said:


> My biggest problem is always air fare. If I can get $1,000 week at the best resort in Florida, I still have to pay around $15,000 air fare for two of us to get there.



Why in the world would you pay that much for airfare.  You're getting ripped off.


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## DeniseM (Aug 21, 2009)

Joshadelic said:


> Why in the world would you pay that much for airfare.  You're getting ripped off.



See under his user name - he lives in Australia...


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## dabo_gc (Aug 21, 2009)

DavidnRobin,

If I had 225K SP, I could get almost US$30,000 worth air tickets from Japan Air Lines.


dabo


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## myip (Aug 21, 2009)

It can work for you... You just need to take time and patient to buy a unit an retro another unit in to get more staroptions -> convert to starpoints.
I spend a total $60K for being 5 stars elite.  My maintenance fees is $4500 per year.  I get around 270000 starpoints each year....  If I have to liquidate everything at current value, I probably will get around $20K to $25K... I will have a net loss of  $35K-$40K.  I figure that I will breakeven in a few years.  I used the starpoints for airline ticket and hotel.  It pay off pretty fast especially I used it for oversea travel.  I used the starpoints usually in peak season ie: Christmas/New year, summer, President Week where airline tickets are highest and the hotel are expensive.  The downside of it, sometimes it is hard to make the reservation for the time you want for the airline.  Also the maintenace fees can go up much more than you anticipate.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 21, 2009)

dabo_gc said:


> DavidnRobin,
> 
> If I had 225K SP, I could get almost US$30,000 worth air tickets from Japan Air Lines.
> 
> ...



That is 13.3 cents per SP... you can buy them for 3.5 cents per SP from SVO - what a deal.  Go for it - you can buy unlimited amount of TSs and just use the SPs and come out ahead - amazing.  Good luck. Watch out for the fuzzy math.  And you should get a job selling TSs (if you don't already...)


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## dabo_gc (Aug 21, 2009)

No, DavidnRobin.

I didn't mean I needed US$30,000 to get 225K SP.

225k SP can be converted to JAL miles and then I can get free tickets which cost US$30,000 in cash price.

Or as you wrote, value of 1SP is 13.3cents for me. How much is the cost to get 1 SP ? 

I know it costs 3.5cents/SP when bought from SPG. I have previously wrote that I sometimes buy SP from them when I need additional Air miles. But there is 80K limit for my family/year. 20K limit for 1 account/year. I use 4 accounts of my family members and convert to JAL miles and then combine into my JAL account. If there were no limit and if I could buy as much as I need. 3.5cents/SP is still good enough for me.

225,000SP = 281250JALmiles = 4 X Australia-Japan-HongKong-Japan-Australia business ticket(@70k miles) = US$32,000(Discount Price) (= US$6750 if bought at 3.5cents/SP)

I don't know how much I need for initial invest and MF to get 225K every year.

This is not fuzzy math. Please check my calculation carefully.

dabo


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## dabo_gc (Aug 21, 2009)

myip said:


> I spend a total $60K for being 5 stars elite.  My maintenance fees is $4500 per year.  I get around 270000 starpoints each year....  If I have to liquidate everything at current value, I probably will get around $20K to $25K... I will have a net loss of  $35K-$40K.



myip, could you please show me or PM the detail of your TSes, if you could ?

270k SP can be converted to 335.5K JALMiles. Wow! that's more than enough to cover all of my air fare. It is worth more than $30k for me.

As DavidnRobin wrote, SP value for me is 13.3cents/SP. You get 270k from MF $4500 means 1 SP = 1.66cents. Wow!! I've been thinking even 3.5cents/SP(bought from SPG) is cheap enough for me.

Just only $60K initial ? If I could buy same TSes, the initial cost would be amortized in two years !! Amazing !   

dabo


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## sml2181 (Aug 21, 2009)

If you would like to proceed - I would look at resales at the Sheraton Mountain Vista - the number of SPG points is a little higher than for WMH weeks and the mf's are a little lower. I think you get 85,800 SPG points for your week and WMH gets you 72K. Lakeside Terrace can be cheap but only gives 55K SPG points. 

I would want to make sure that the annual fees are as low as possible. (And of course the initial purchase price.)
I also would want to make sure you get at least the 4* elite status which allows you to get the 10% SPG points on top of the number you normally get. 
The 5* elite gives you SPG platinum for life. 
It is like the Intercontinental - you get lounge access when a lounge is actually available and most of the time they will upgrade to executive floor or junior suites and sometimes suites. Sometimes you get free breakfast if a lounge is not available but that is certainly not always the case. (If you want breakfast/lounge access, than you may want to look at the HH, but they don't have a good convertion rate to miles.) I wouldn't count too much on suite upgrades though - it really depends on where/when/how long. 

To me, the SPG conversion is absolutely worth it, and I bought for SPG points mainly but you really do need to make the calculation and you need to know/decide what to do with it.
My initial costs for getting 5* were a little under 90K, with mf's of 5K and I get something like 330K SPG points. But this includes 2 fixed ski weeks, so the purchase price could have been lower but I also wanted weeks I would be able to use myself in case the system would fall apart. 
I purchased some more after these first 4 weeks.


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## RoshiGuy (Aug 21, 2009)

DavidnRobin said:


> That is 13.3 cents per SP... you can buy them for 3.5 cents per SP from SVO - what a deal.  Go for it - you can buy unlimited amount of TSs and just use the SPs and come out ahead - amazing.  Good luck. Watch out for the fuzzy math.  And you should get a job selling TSs (if you don't already...)



You keep saying fuzzy math ... sell TS ... support developer sales. Why this dogmatic inability to see that it can make sense for some people?! For those that want to fly business class internationally using miles/points is a huge benefit. Especially if you have flexibility in when you travel, making the more likely you can actually get that seat.

FYI, I only have one SDO unit that I bought in Aug 2008 (resale) and thanks to TUG saved a lot of money; have benefited from the tips on II exchange; booking issues; etc. TUG has been awesome in the suggestions made.

If I had the time/flexibility to travel more I would go for 5* buying a mix of resale and developer (to retro - again fantastic suggestion on TUG). This can be done for $75K net and will yield approx. 300,000 SPs for about $5K in MF.

If you know how someone can buy more than 20,000 SPs from Starwood please share that here; in that case simply buying the SPs (at 3.5c) is better than buying TS to convert.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 21, 2009)

I am so wrong - I suggest that everyone reading this thread go out and buy as many SVO TSs as possible and convert those SOs to SPs in order to get those 1st class tickets to fabulous distinations - I mean... 13.3 cents per SP - how can anyone pass that up? and that doesn't even account for upgrades to superstar suites worth even more $$$!  How can anyone turn down such great deals? It is like SVO is giving away money. And if you act today - you will get a free SPG50 certificate (not valid in HI)...

sorry - lost control there for a sec...

tell me again what great deals SVO is offering in order to give buyers the opportunity (or should I say priviledge) to get SPs?

WDW? WLR? WPORV? SVV-Amelia? (added: I forgot WSJ-BV...)
...Aruba?  LOL


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## Joshadelic (Aug 21, 2009)

DeniseM said:


> See under his user name - he lives in Australia...



I know, but I just did a simple search for his Austrailia-Japan-Hong Kong-Japan-Austrailia trip and I came up with a fare of under $1500.  He somehow paid $8000.  Perhaps he needs a new travel agent.

Try www.kayak.com

I just hate to see people paying pre-information age prices for airline tickets.


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## Troopers (Aug 21, 2009)

Joshadelic said:


> I know, but I just did a simple search for his Austrailia-Japan-Hong Kong-Japan-Austrailia trip and I came up with a fare of under $1500.  He somehow paid $8000.  Perhaps he needs a new travel agent.
> 
> Try www.kayak.com
> 
> I just hate to see people paying pre-information age prices for airline tickets.



He's not flying economy.


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## dabo_gc (Aug 21, 2009)

Recently, I noticed that many folks just believe Star Point is no worth to convert. (sml2181, I am very happy to know that you are doing what I want to do. Thank you.) 

But one thing is clear for me, just like RoshiGuy and sml2181 wrote, that *Star Point is the only useful system in many hotel point programs when you redeem points especially to Air Miles and redeem again to get free air tickets in business or first class with long distance.* (Hotel/Air of Marriott seems OK, but can’t access with resale TSes)

There is no way to buy more than 20K/year Star Point from SPG. I buy 80K Star Points (cost $2800) every year by using four accounts, though. So if there is a way to get large amount of Star Points with TSes, we can say it is rare and big chance to reduce huge cost of airfare. I guess jarta, sml2181 and RoshiGuy are doing this and getting benefit.

I am paying $2800 just to get ONLY 80K Star Points almost every year. Is it better than owning TS ? How much did you invest to get 80K ? How much is the MF for 80K ? What shall I do if I need more than 80K ? Did you know I am still happy if I could get 300K StarPoint for $10,500(0.35cents/SP) ?  You might think I’m clazy, but they are what I have been thinking of for a long time. 

I believe that invest $190K just to get points is idiot. But as myip wrote, if $60K and $4500 MF is enough to get 270K, or as  sml2181 wrote, 75K, 5K MF to get 300K. It is worth me to consider getting involved. In the future, if SPG changes their policy or JAL changes the conversion ratio, I think I can afford to keep them. Or I could sell to get out from it. 

I would like to confirm that I could convert Star Option to Star Points only every other year, right? If I had four TSes, can I choose one by one to convert, or all or nothing? Any restriction to convert?

By the way, If you are interested in FFP (Frequent Flyers Program) and often travel internationally, please check Japan Air Lines in OneWorld Alliance or All Nippon Airways in Star Alliance. You don't need to fly with them but just use their account to keep and redeem miles to get free tickets you want.

Normally, airline companies such as AA, Delta or NW they calculate actual distance between cities when you redeem miles into free tickets. But JAL and ANA, they don't go by actual distance. So as far as you fly, you need fewer miles compare with actual distance. The difference from other airline companies is HUGE. But miles will expire in three years. I don’t think it’s a big problem though.

Many people including myself might be using Credit Card to get miles and every mileage program has different system, as you know, and the same time, there is a huge difference in value of 1 miles. Miles/ticket ratio of JAL and ANA is amazing! Also, it is interesting to know some tricks and tips just like even if you fly with Malaysian Air, keep miles in NW and redeem to get Malaysian Air tickets. Using JAL of ANA is something similar. You will find huge savings.

I would like to thank you all here. Every comment you post guide me to deeper understanding. I can’t imagine what I had been doing if I didn’t find TUG. 

Best regards,

dabo

P.S. I’m getting old and have some troubles with my body, so I need business class when I fly especially long distance.

I checked www.kayak.com and the airfare started from $9857 for business and $2219 for economy. If using Star Point and get free tickets from JAL, they cost me only 56000sp(value is 17.6cent/P. amazing! Right?) and 40000sp(5.69cent/p still good compare with the cost of 3.5cent/p from SPG if you buy from them) and there is no restriction to change date etc. Redeemed ticket is almost the same as 1 year open normal ticket(Japan Air Lines). Please remember that normal tickets cost more than double price of discounted tickets. This is one of many advantages.

Please see this example carefully. Even economy class, we'd better buy SP rather than air tickets.

Thank you,Joshadelic. Your misunderstanding lead me show all of you how Star Point are useful.


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## Troopers (Aug 21, 2009)

I fly frequently to Asia (mostly on Asiana or Eva) and can appreciate your efforts.  I’ve consider what you are doing but decided against it.

Purchasing a TS for any other reason than to stay at that TS is a bad idea, IMHO.  There’s a premium for the ability and flexibility to use a TS other than its primary use (i.e. to stay at that TS).  Also, there are too many variables in both the airline and the TS industry that constantly change.  This makes it too risky for me.


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## DeniseM (Aug 21, 2009)

Troopers said:


> are too many variables in both the airline and the TS industry that constantly change.  This makes it too risky for me.



Exactly - the right to convert to Starpoints and transfer Starpoints to an airline is not set in stone!  I think it's risky business to invest big buck$ in timeshares for the sole purpose of using them for FF miles.


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## Weez (Aug 21, 2009)

Joshadelic said:


> Why in the world would you pay that much for airfare.  You're getting ripped off.



Ripped off is a relative term. Totally depends on where you are traveling and what you expect. If I fly over 3 hours I almost always fly first. If my timing is right I can usually fly first to Hawaii from the east coast for $2K-$3K per R/T ticket, sometimes less but not often. Flying overseas (Europe) almost always starts at $5K per seat, $8K is alot but certainly not unheard of. Our airfare almost always costs as much as our trip (family of 4) Its part of enjoying your vacation. If you can fly coach or can use miles for first and you enjoy yourself then your ahead of the game. I personally cant on longer flights. I use miles when I can but at 150K miles per FC ticket they dont last long 

BTW: To the original poster. AMEX membership miles are one of the best mileage programs there are. You can "usually" transfer mile for mile into almost all the major airlines and you can buy up to 500K points per year. On tickets over $5k it almost ALWAYS makes sense to buy them from amex. For $12.5k you can get 500,000 miles on "most major airlines, this will get you at least 3 FC tickets and sometimes as many as 4.


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## dabo_gc (Aug 21, 2009)

RoshiGuy said:


> If you know how someone can buy more than 20,000 SPs from Starwood please share that here; in that case simply buying the SPs (at 3.5c) is better than buying TS to convert.



I don't know which FFP you are in, but if there is low level restriction to combine few accounts or transfer miles each other, make a few accounts at SPG and buy 20K/year/each then convert into miles (there is no conversion limit at SPG and airlines), then combine or transfer miles into your FFP account. I think that is the only one way.

At Japan Air Lines, we may open many accounts using names of family members such as dad & mam, grand dad & mam, sisters & brothers, children & grand children or may be dogs & cats - we don't need to give them any identification. Then we can combine all of them as one family and anybody in the family can use miles in the pool. So, may be we can get as much points as we need. I made four accounts for me, wife and two children though. So my limit is 80K/year/family.

SPG once had a program for cooperation to use points as incentive for customers or employees. The price/point was much cheaper than 3.5cents and you could buy as much as you want. But to receive those points, there were a limit. I don't remember how much it was. Maybe 100K/year/person.

Once I tried to use that system and applied to buy points. They seemed they didn't check much about my company and just gave me the right to get involved into the scheme. Then, when I was ready to buy points, the program ended. It was last October.

RoshiGuy, could you please explain why you believe that simply buying the SPs (at 3.5c) is better than buying TS to convert ?

dabo


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## dabo_gc (Aug 21, 2009)

Weez said:


> \
> BTW: To the original poster. AMEX membership miles are one of the best mileage programs there are. You can "usually" transfer mile for mile into almost all the major airlines and you can buy up to 500K points per year. On tickets over $5k it almost ALWAYS makes sense to buy them from amex. For $12.5k you can get 500,000 miles on "most major airlines, this will get you at least 3 FC tickets and sometimes as many as 4.



Thank you for you comment, Weez.

Unfortunately, AMEX in Australia doesn't offer such kind of program. The best program I know is just spend $1 and get 1mile. Most of them are worse such as spend $2 and get 1mile or spend more than $3000 and get 1mile/$ for exceeding amount.

I use JAL card issued in Japan which gives me 1mile/100yen.

I hope I could apply and use AMEX in the USA.


dabo


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## RoshiGuy (Aug 21, 2009)

dabo_gc said:


> RoshiGuy, could you please explain why you believe that simply buying the SPs (at 3.5c) is better than buying TS to convert ?
> 
> dabo



What I meant was that IF you can buy as many SP as you want at 3.5c then it does not make sense to buy TS and convert. Your actual cost of TS to SP conversion (taking all costs into account) will be pretty close to 3-3.5c. Might as well not lock into TS and simply buy the SP you need. But Starwood limits SP purchase to 20,000 per account so one cannot simply buy a large number of SPs.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 21, 2009)

I certainly agree that it is a benefit to use SPs and/or FF miles to fly and upgrade - and also that there is benefit in the SO-SP conversion under certain circumstances (especially for 5*/PFL).  Most folks here that support the buying from SVO and use the SO-SP conversion are 5*/PFL and became one while it could be done cheaply before the numerous rule changes and cost increases.

A few points to reiterate:
1) Most here would not recommend buying a SVO TS for the primary reason to use the SO-SP conversion for very good reasons (as already stated)
2) In today's SVO TS market and requirements to get to 5*/PFL - it cannot be done cheaply or made worthwhile w/o some serious bargaining (which includes requals and getting to 5*/PFL) - add in the ability for program rules to change, the MFs increasing ~5-10% per year, and the loss upon resale (since all active sales are for V resorts) - and it becomes very tough to justify under curent conditions

Currently - as stated above - all VOIs being sold by SVO are V resorts (WDW, WSJ-BV, WLR, SVV-A, WPORV).  Take any of these current VOIs being sold - and use the purchase price, the MFs (with the annual increases), and the loss upon resale (or not if you plan to hold forever) - and compare them to the SPs attained by SO conversion along with the purchase SP incentives - and show how that end up being a positive outcome (whether or not as a 5*/PFL) using a reasonable $/SP measure.

If you do this and clearly explain it - without too much fuzzy math - then go for it.

What is fuzzy math? That is the math that calculates that you can buy an WPORV at ~$50K w/ $2400 MFs that converts to 84K SPs (along with 120K SP purchase incentives) and then use those SPs to essentially have the TS pay for itself...


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## dabo_gc (Aug 21, 2009)

Troopers said:


> Also, there are too many variables in both the airline and the TS industry that constantly change.  This makes it too risky for me.



Yes, Toopers and Denise. That is a basic risk of buying TS just for points.

As I wrote, I don't think I can invest like 190K just to get points and *5. But as other folks wrote, 60-70K and 4500-5000mf which is enough to get 300Ksp is affordable.

TS is not for points, I know, but I hope TS is worth not only staying but also for something else. More reasons to own, more satisfaction I could have. If I wanted just points, I can convert only half of them every year, so of course I would like to enjoy staying at resorts. 

Anyway, I need to get points or miles from any source or I have to pay $30K for airfare/year. So I am ready to take risk to reduce that amount. If I don't need to pay that kind of amount for airfare, I'll never think about buying TS for points and never take such kind of risk. 

At the moment there are only three choices. Pay $30K/year for airfare or take risk or stay home and watch TV. What is your answer ?

Cost of buying and keeping TS plus risk which is converted in amount is less than $30K/year, it is worth trying for me.

And I always think about the basic risk which any timeshare has. I live in Australia now and moving to Malaysia soon, and then after 3-5 years I am going back to Japan. At the moment, I have only one TS at Las Vagas and I don't think I will visit there in my future. If had a chance to get to Las Vagas, I want to stay at much better resort.  

So when I think about increasing number of TS for me to own in the future, and location of TS make me headache. Nobody knows what will happen to RCI, resort, exchange system, trading power or change of MF which we have to accept.

The climate surrounding TS industries in Japan is the same as in USA. Even very high end TS's price dropped to 1/4-1/7. So I am planing to buy one of those for my trip I make surely at least once a year and for my far future.

I believe that we should buy TS where we really want to visit. This is basic of the basic. But.........

dabo


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## RoshiGuy (Aug 21, 2009)

Weez said:


> BTW: To the original poster. AMEX membership miles are one of the best mileage programs there are. You can "usually" transfer mile for mile into almost all the major airlines and you can buy up to 500K points per year. On tickets over $5k it almost ALWAYS makes sense to buy them from amex. For $12.5k you can get 500,000 miles on "most major airlines, this will get you at least 3 FC tickets and sometimes as many as 4.



This is a great tip! I've had an AMEX card for years and didn't realize one could buy 500K points. This actually turns out to be less expensive than buying TS to convert into SP (for miles) and you're not locked into TS ownership, etc. Thanks!


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## RoshiGuy (Aug 21, 2009)

DavidnRobin said:


> If you do this and clearly explain it - without too much fuzzy math - then go for it.
> 
> What is fuzzy math? That is the math that calculates that you can buy an WPORV at ~$50K w/ $2400 MFs that converts to 84K SPs (along with 120K SP purchase incentives) and then use those SPs to essentially have the TS pay for itself...



I posted an example above which I don't think is fuzzy math. If it is fuzzy please point that out; I regularly learn new stuff on TUG.

BTW, Weez's tip on purchasing MR points changes my perspective on buying TS for SPs. MR points are a less expensive way of getting the international business class seat and less restrictive than being locked into TS.


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## dabo_gc (Aug 21, 2009)

Thank you very much for your comment, DavidnRobin.

I think I understand what you are saying. That's why I am wondering.

At the moment there is only one thing is clear for me. SP is very useful and valuable. That's all.

Since there is a limitation to buy SP from SPG, I am looking for other way to get SP. Buying TS for SP is just a one way to get SP.

There are folks who bought TS for points or think it is worth to do. On the other hand, folks says don't do it. I am very pleased to listen to both opinions.

DavidnRobin, could you please give me an advice on this point as I wrote: At the moment there are only three choices. Pay $30K/year for airfare or take risk or stay home and watch TV. What is your answer ?

Regards,

dabo


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## DeniseM (Aug 21, 2009)

dabo - what if you spend a lot of money on timeshares, and then the program changes and you can no longer convert them to Starpoints and airline miles?  Because that is not guaranteed by any means.


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## Henry M. (Aug 21, 2009)

dabo_gc said:


> I would like to confirm that I could convert Star Option to Star Points only every other year, right? If I had four TSes, can I choose one by one to convert, or all or nothing? Any restriction to convert?



Once you are an Elite member, i.e. you have more than  159,000 StarOptions, you can convert your timeshare into Starpoints every single year. You don't ever have to use it.

To me Starpoints are just like dollars, except you can only use them for limited products (hotel stays or airline tickets). If you use those products a lot, Starpoints are a very good currency to have because you get much better discounts than you do if you pay with dollars. Now whether this is of value for an individual user depends on what type of hotels and airline seats the user wants to use. 

If you it gives you pleasure to know that you paid less than anybody on the plane for the seat you're in, even if it is a middle seat in the back of the plane, and in general you prefer camping out in nature over staying at luxury resorts, then Starpoints are a poor currency for you to have. Now if you frequently visit the figurative land where Starpoints are a valid currency, then they can be significantly more valuable than the dollars you saved by not buying a timeshare. It's kind of like any other foreign currency. If you never go where it is used, it is of no value to you. 

Obviously dabo_gc actually travels business or first now. His decision is to use cash or Starpoints to pay for something he is definitely using. It seems for his circumstances owning a TS to convert makes sense, although there is some risk involved. It is not fuzzy math. Even with the salesman story, if you actually do use the resorts that he talks about, his story makes sense.

I may not have the dollars to go to a St. Regis in a beautiful location. If I can get there with points it doesn't mean that my stay there is worth any less than the best rate I would have been able to find to pay with dollars. Starpoints may even enable a visit somewhere that I wouldn't have been able or willing to visit if I had had to use dollars. That doesn't mean that the visit is not worth whatever the going rate is. The going rate, of course, doesn't mean rack rate, but whatever rate you can find with some basic research.


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## Ken555 (Aug 21, 2009)

emuyshondt said:


> Obviously dabo_gc actually travels business or first now. His decision is to use cash or Starpoints to pay for something he is definitely using. It seems for his circumstances owning a TS to convert makes sense, although there is some risk involved. It is not fuzzy math. Even with the salesman story, if you actually do use the resorts that he talks about, his story makes sense.



Absolutely correct, and thanks to Emuyshondt for putting this thread in perspective. The OP is looking to make his current purchases less expensive by converting TS to SP, and not worrying about anything else.

There are obviously other considerations involved. For instance, we're talking about frequent flight awards, which are less available than buying with cash. The OP is currently redeeming airline points for tickets, so this may not be much of a factor.

I agree with others than TS purchases should primarily be purchased for use of the resort. But, they really do provide an alternative currency in the form of frequent flyer miles, and that's a valid option in this instance. 

I've posted in the past that converting to SPs don't often make sense to me. In this rare and unique instance, I think it does make sense. I haven't run all the numbers and don't plan to, but if the OP is convinced (and double checked all the numbers!) then it may be the least expensive method to obtain those first/biz seats he wants on JAL.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 21, 2009)

I understand the issue - just make sure one works out the numbers in today's TS market.  It is fuzzy math unless one actually purchases a 1st/Biz class ticket for $1000s since there are other ways to get to 1st/Biz class that is a lot cheaper than buying $10000s worth of TSs and getting stuck with increases in MFs every year - and >50% loss of original purchase value.

I am still waiting for someone to give a real life - current example - of what can be bought (even with a resale requal) to make this even close to reasonable.


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## tschwa2 (Aug 21, 2009)

*rule changes*

Several posts back someone warned about rule changes.  These happen all the time.  It could be JAL.  They could decide to stop participating completely or (more likely) limit the number of SP's that can be converted to JAL miles.  I could certainly see them limited the miles to 50,000 or 100,000 then you are stuck with more SO's and or SP's than you can use.


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## dabo_gc (Aug 21, 2009)

Thank you Denise.

Now I feel our conversation is something like this. There are government bond @3.5% and SMFG preferred Capital bond @14.00%. Which one to choose? Which is risky?  

I've been living in delivertive world for 20years, so taking risk is my job. Risk you are talking here is not so big for me. If I need to invest $100K to reduce expense of $30K/year to zero/year and there are some risks that $100K become zero or can't get any points nor miles in a few(?) years, my brain still tells me to go for it. I will cry if it happens next year, but if it lasts at least 4 years, that's good enough for me. Because I don't believe $100K become zero and resorts disappeared in 4 years. If this happen, I just shout, kick my chair and go to bed.  

It is much hard for me to plan nothing and just keep spending $30k/year for airfare. It is just like watching leaking water from a tap and doing nothing.

BUT, if cent/sp is not less than 3cent/sp, I better try some other tricks.

dabo


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## dabo_gc (Aug 21, 2009)

DavidnRobin said:


> I am still waiting for someone to give a real life - current example - of what can be bought (even with a resale requal) to make this even close to reasonable.



That's what I want to see.

Information I have now is only this. Thank you Denise, you wrote this one.

When you factor in the high MF at HRA, it's probably the worst resort to buy for a Staroption exchanger.

SVV is better than HRA, but WKV still has the best MF/SO ratio:

    Harborside Atlantis $2,433 - Staroptions - 148,100

    WKORV-N Westin Ka'anapali North $1,975.30 - Staroptions - 148,100

    WKORV:Westin Ka'anapali  $1,898.60 - Staroptions - 148,100

    WSJ: Hillside $2,466 - Staroptions - 148,100

    SVV:Vistana Villages Key West $1,321 - Staroptions - 95,700

    WKV:The Westin Kierland Villas $1,252,76 - Staroptions - 148,100

    SVV: Bella $1,232.00 - Staroptions - 95,700



dabo


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## dabo_gc (Aug 21, 2009)

tschwa2 said:


> Several posts back someone warned about rule changes.  These happen all the time.  It could be JAL.  They could decide to stop participating completely or (more likely) limit the number of SP's that can be converted to JAL miles.  I could certainly see them limited the miles to 50,000 or 100,000 then you are stuck with more SO's and or SP's than you can use.



It's not big problem for me if it happened.

I just change my thinking way and enjoy staying at the resorts or exchange at II just like most of us doing. :whoopie: 

And as I wrote previously that I use Intercontinental group and have Royal Ambassador & Platinum status. If the day comes and I can't get JAL miles, I just change my hotel program from Intercontinental to SPG. That's it.

At the moment I'm a hotel-oriented traveler (more than 60 nights/year including business trip). So as long as I can use SPG program, there is no problem. To stay at Intercontinental hotel, of course I have to pay the room rate. If I can get several ten thousands of starpoints, wow! I'll be very happy to spend those points to stay at SPG hotels free.

But if I can't convert SO to SP, it will be ...........

dabo


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## m61376 (Aug 21, 2009)

Interesting thread. I usually read/post on the Marriott Board, and there have been several heated discussions on this very topic. Only developer purchases can ever be traded for points; Marriott has no re-qualification system. That said, there are two opposite schools of thought- those that maintain it never makes sense to buy developer and pay large amounts of money extra and those who feel that the option to trade for points adds a huge dimension to their ownership and evaluate their travel packages according to airline list prices for business/first class seats and rack rates for category 7 and 8 properties.

There are also a small number of developer direct purchasers who only advocate doing so during initial pre-construction offerings and when the upfront point incentives are high enough; likewise, a small number of resale advocates agree that purchasing direct makes sense under the similar right set of circumstances.

The developer and resale advocates tend to evaluate the worth of the points very differently. Like David, I believe that the points are only worth what you normally would spend if you were to take a similar trip. Thus, if you normally purchase 30K in first class seats like Dabo appears to, then even though you or I might not do that, it is fair for him to assign a 30K value on the points and, in that case, he may be able to justify such a purchase (of course, hoping that the increase in MF's and reward program point devaluation don't outpace the return on his investment). 

On the other hand, if you wouldn't normally spend large amounts on whatever vacation plans you make using the points, the most rationale valuation would be what you would normally spend on such a trip. For example, we have flown overseas many times. Would I love to have flown BC or FC? Of course- but since I was too cheap to do so, then the value of those points is only what I would normally spend. If I assign the full value of BC or FC tickets, then I agree I would be using fuzzy logic to justify my purchase. Similarly, I have managed to stay in magnificent properties at far less than rack rate. It is only fair to use the published hotel rates if that's how I normally book my trips. 

Like David said, I think it is really important to evaluate the worth of points according to your typical expenditures. In Dabo's case, according to what he has outlined, it surprises me to think that it "might" actually make sense. Of course, he'd be gambling that the rules don't change, but it seems like his break-even point might be 4 years or so if he can buy/time things correctly. I actually never thought I'd see a scenario where trading for points actually worked out financially.


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## dabo_gc (Aug 21, 2009)

DavidnRobin said:


> since there are other ways to get to 1st/Biz class that is a lot cheaper than buying $10000s worth of TSs



I'm very interested in hearing your secrets.

From my experience, to get first(I never use them) or business air tickets, using airlines mileage is the best and cheapest way. To use mileage, get star points and convert to air miles is the cheapest way. I don't know if buying TSes is the most cost defective to get SP or not, though.

Please, please tell me other ways that you mentioned.

OK, for example, if I use Starpoints which I bought from SPG at 3.5cent/p. I need 70K miles(56K SP) to get award business tickets for Australia-Japan-HongKong-Japan-Australia. So, my *cost is 56K X 3.5 cent = $1970.00*

Do you think you can get same tickets cheaper than $1970? It is business class and not fix dated and can be changed to any date in 1 year. Even discount airfare seller www.kayak.com sells the same route of business ticket for starting price of $9857 when I checked. Even economy class, their price started from $2219.

Could you please show me your example?

dabo

P.S. The cost of 1SP bought from SPG is 3.5cent/p. MF of WKV is $1252.76 and you can get 81KSP (only 1.546cent/p). How much is WKV resale price? If we need to buy cheap TS from developer to retro WKV, how much is total initial cost, total MF, total SP and rate of cent/MF. etc.etc.  Though I still need to know many thing, I feel like I can see very interesting result here.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 21, 2009)

dabo_gc said:


> That's what I want to see.
> 
> Information I have now is only this. Thank you Denise, you wrote this one.
> 
> ...



Hi - many of these resorts are not being actively sold by SVO - so you must be talking resale and then requaling them with an SVO purchase.  And none of this has to do with SO-SP conversion - unless I am missing something.  I thought you were talking for SO-SP conversion and not for SO exchanging via SVN (big difference).

I think - if I recall correctly - that Lagunamar offers the best SVO value for converting to SPs (low cost, low MFs)

As to SO exchange - It would unwise (IMO) to buy HRA or WSJ other than to use that resort - the same could be said for WKORV/N and WPORV.  The best value as a SVN exchange is found with WKV and SVV (Mandatory sections).

As a requal - you will want to go with a V resort that has a good SO-SP conversion rate - and you can buy cheaply - then buy something like WLR and requal.

Regardless - in today's SVO TS world - this would be quite a stretch to get down cheaply enough.  I'll say it again - those using the SO-SP conversion benefit are those who are already 5*/PFL and can maximize their value since many did so cheaply - I am not sure it can be done cheaply now a days.

For us - who do not care so much about SPs - we bought our SVO VOIs to use or rent to offset MFs - 2 adjacent weeks at WSJ (for at least half the cost of what SVO sells them) which we love, a 2Bd LO WKORV OF which was a present to ourselves (and we saved $25K by rescinding OF at WKORVN) and we rent the studio side to offset the MFs - which we also love, 2 weeks of a WKV Plat-Prem (81K SOs each) to use a rental or SVN exchanger (I would buy another if I could find a bargain) - again for about half of what SVO sold them for, and an EOY WPORV that we actually bought from SVO but broke a few SVO rules (at the time) documented in the requal thread.  With the WPORV - we got about 225K SPs which we are using for Europe (in 3 days) - and we still have another 225K SPs from a SPG AMEX card.  I am getting about $7500 of usage - with just a little fuzzy math - out of these 225K SPs - and very happy do do so.

Good luck.

PS - read the rest of the post - your best value is to requal a V resort.

I have no secret for 1st/Biz class other than to use points via FF miles - I suggest FlyerTalk for the best approaches.  I know one thing - I would never spend $9K for a 1st/Biz class ticket when I can fly Economy-Plus for 1/10 of this... (which is what we are doing in a couple of days) - I do fly 1st/Biz for business - but that is their $ not mine.


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## sml2181 (Aug 21, 2009)

My "best buy" was a Lakeside Terrace fixed ski week which I bought for 4K.
It only gets 55K SPG points, but with the additional 10% for elites, that week still gets me 75K in miles or 50K in miles and 5 nights in a cat 3 hotel. Mf's are 800$ or so. Staroptions 129,800.
Best buy for me since this is a fixed ski week which we could actually use almost every year. Cheaper weeks can be had of course.

Sheraton Mountain Vista plat winter can be had for 10K or so, and the number of SPG points is 85K. Staroptions 148,100. Mf's were 1100$ including tax. 

I don't recall Orlando prices, as I wasn't interested in owning Orlando. 
I agree - don't buy Harborside, WSJ or Hawaii unless you also want to use it.
WMH gets less SPG points than Mountain Vista and taxes are higher so your annual expenses get higher. 
WKV - I would only buy WKV if you wanted to have the Staroptions when buying resale. 

I think Cancun may still be the better option to buy from Starwood. The rest of the resorts do not have a very good exchange rate in my opinion - considering mf's and such. Unless you would buy where you want to go.
Maybe Cancun has cheap resales already? I don't know. 
Riverfront has much higher mf's than Mountain Vista and gets less SPG points. 

I did buy when there were less Staroptions needed to get 5* elite - meaning that you may have to spend a little more. 

Having said all that - Please don't think that changes in the system will not occur. They will.
They really can tell you a few months after you bought your timeshares that you need double the number of points to get your desired flights. They can stop their partnership. They can and it happens. Just to make sure you really REALLY get that. Are there other airlines you could use to get what you want?
Like I said before, I am very happy with my points and it worked out well for me. I wish I started all this much earlier. But for many people it could be a huge disappointment too.

Also just wanted to add that Marriott can be very interesting too. I almost only use Marriott for work stays, because they are not there where visit during vacations - or Starwood/Hilton has the better locations. That's why we bought Marriott resale. However, many people here prefer Marriott - and I can see that it makes sense.


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## RoshiGuy (Aug 21, 2009)

DavidnRobin said:


> I am still waiting for someone to give a real life - current example - of what can be bought (even with a resale requal) to make this even close to reasonable.



I'll clarify the example I gave a few posts above. BTW, everything I'm saying here I've read about on TUG. Buy 2 units SDO 2-bed (True Plat) resale. They are not easy to find but available. Cost approx. $10,000. Buy 2 EOY units WLM/WDW from developer to requal the SDO units. Cost approx. $50,000. Total cost is therefore $60,000. Developer purchase will come with SP incentives; say ~100K SP for each unit or 200K SP total but let's ignore this for the moment.

The 2 SDO units plus the 2 EOY units will yield 200K SP/year for MF of $3200. Assume 5% opportunity cost on the $60K purchase which is $3000/year. Also assume that the developer units lose half their value overnight and this needs to be amortized. So $25K needs to be amortized over some period, say 20 years; therefore this adds $1250/year to the cost.

Net annual cost for 200K SPs is $3200 (MF) plus $3000 (opportunity cost) plus $1250 (amortization) for a total of ~$7500/year. This is equivalent to paying 3.75c per SP. Bottom line is that IF one can redeem for value yielding 4c/SP you come out ahead. And the 200K SP developer incentive which has been ignored in the calculations so far is worth $8K which reduces the upfront cost (and hence the opportunity cost and amortization estimates as well).

Two current examples of great value SP conversion. Westin Aruba during winter break in Feb has room rates of $450 plus tax. A 5-night stay will cost $2750 or 40000 SP. Each SP is yielding better than 6c. However, I would not pay $450 for the room; I'm willing to pay $350 (it is peak season). So my yield is still $1750/40000 or better than 4c/SP.

Discounted business class seat to Asia (from the East Coast) typically costs $4500. If available via miles this can be booked for 120K miles or less than $100K SP. Again, yield is better than 4.5c IF you would have bought this seat anyway.

Let me know if this is fuzzy math and I'll stand corrected.


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## dabo_gc (Aug 21, 2009)

I thought I have read all of threads on this topic in Starwood Owner Resources. But I found there was VERY important thread I have not read yet. It is ' SDKath's guide to 5* platinum '. 

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71543&highlight=II

I agree 100% with Katherine who is author of the thread. Especially this part;
--------------------------
2) I want to travel the world, I like the StarPoint system. Many folks here on TUG say this is a bad reason to go after 5* but I completely disagree. Using SPs to travel via the vast Starwood hotel network is a fantastic opportunity. You can stay as many days as you want, unlike the 7 day fix with TSing. You will be upgraded MOST of the time (no guarantees anymore) and some world class hotels are at your fingertip year after year. Europe is also well represented and going to Europe on US$ is not cheap these days! Plus, for every 20,000 SPs, you get 25,000 frequent flier miles. And as 5*, your SP conversion gets an automatic 10% bonus. That’s a great deal! In this case, get to 5* with the cheapest resorts possible (like me) and then convert to SPs or SOs. Look at the chart in the owner’s sticky of the current developer prices. It has the SPs listed. Some Orlando units come with very few SPs so try avoid those if this is your goal. I use the rule of thumb that about 20,000 SPs is one night of stay in a nice hotel. Some are more, some are less, but this is a good estimate.
--------------------------

I don't think I need to jump to *5 straight away, but I would like to follow her. To get Platinum status itself seems not so hard for me, if I keep my travel pattern with SPG instead of Intercontinental. So, I would like to set my first goal to 300K SP/year that will bring me 12 X Australia-Japan RT economy tickets or 7 X RT business tickets or two around the world business tickets which is worth more than $35K/year.

Risk? I am very happy to take risk to get into new world.

Well, let my simulation begin...


dabo


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## myip (Aug 22, 2009)

The best value is Lakeside Terrace or Sheraton Mountain Vista... I would buy either resorts (ski week) and retr'd upgrade with Sheraton Broadway Plantation...


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## dabo_gc (Aug 22, 2009)

Thank you very much for you recommendation. They are very helpful. 

When I checked TSes on eBay, I found that not every TS was SO assigned. Just like this. No SO information.

http://cgi.ebay.com/DISNEY-Sheraton...ares?hash=item2ea72c5613&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Some has SO information like this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SHERATON-VISTAN...ares?hash=item43998f6f9f&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

What shall I do?  Do I need to pick up the one with SO info? Or, once retroed SO be assigned? How can I check SO? Or is there any thread regarding this matter? I'm sorry but I couldn't find it.

Do I need to get only mandatory resorts?

I found Star Option Value Chart. Is that the one to check SO?
http://www.tug2.net/advice/svn_valuechart.pdf

Please help this beginner.

Regards,

dabo


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## Henry M. (Aug 22, 2009)

If you have no interest in exchanging within the SVN system, I would buy the units that give you the best return in terms of the cost per Starpoint (maintenance fee/Starpoint conversion). I would also look at the cost of the unit. If I understand you right, your main interest is in getting the Starpoints, not the location of the unit or the ability to use anything within the SVN system.

In general, voluntary units should be cheaper in the resale market. Since they don't come with exchange privileges until you retro them, they are not as attractive to buyers. If you buy them new you will lose more than if you buy a mandatory unit, but if you buy them resale you will have already paid a discounted price so you will not lose as much if you want to sell it.

I don't know where you can find a list of Starpoint conversion values for each resort. Perhaps in one of the owner resource stickies. In general you can convert yearly once you are an Elite member and you get 10% more Starpoints if you are 5* and convert to Starpoints. 

Is Hawaii a possibility for you to use? The units and maintenance fees there are expensive, but perhaps you like the location and it is close enough to you to actually go there. This would go against the grain of paying the least for what you want to accomplish, though.


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## pointsjunkie (Aug 22, 2009)

camp is over and i am back. hi all,

i am one of those who does convert so-sp at least  once a year. i find that part of the starwood program to be a real perk.

that option was the deal closer for my DH and myself when we first bought a timeshare.

we converted sp to usair this year when they had the 50% offer.

you get the best bang for your starpoint buck when you convert to airline points and then use them to fly first class. 

i got to 5* for $110000 and i am sure it will cost you much less now.

good luck.


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## dabo_gc (Aug 22, 2009)

emuyshondt, though my main reason is to get SP, I'm also interested in exchanging within SVN or II once in a while. But I don't think I will choose resorts where I really want to visit. I will choose cost effective ones.

Hawaii? Sounds good to me. But I don't think I need it. I don't travel in peak season, rather stay home and plan next trip. And what we need is Studio or 1BR, so I think exchanging is not so difficult. Also as we are hotel-oriented traveler at the moment, there is no problem to stay at hotel with SP.

pointsjunkie, I've read many of your comments in Katherine's thread and found that your thinking way is similar to mine. So I'm expecting many suggestion and help from you in the near future.　 

Well, which on to choose like question is not main object of this thread. So I will search other thread or open new thread when needed.

I always appreciate your comments, suggestions and recommendations. Also I would like to thank you for your efforts trying to pick up what I want to say from my poor English.

Best regards,


dabo


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## Ken555 (Aug 22, 2009)

dabo_gc said:


> Even discount airfare seller www.kayak.com sells the same route of business ticket for starting price of $9857 when I checked. Even economy class, their price started from $2219.



FYI, Kayak is not a discount seller. They simply show many (not all) current prices from the airlines in one view, similar (but not the same) as the large net agencies like Expedia, Travelocity, and Orbitz. I like Kayak (and their new iPhone app!!) as a quick way to get the bottom line on market prices for flights. It's been a huge help to me in planning trips.

Dabo, have you looked into consolidators? I know people who used to purchase business and first tickets routinely (for work and vacation), and consolidators were able to get the best price. These tickets didn't earn frequent flyer miles or any other perks, but they were inexpensive compared to market prices. I haven't looked into these types of tickets in many years, and I have no idea if they're offered in Australia.


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## dabo_gc (Aug 23, 2009)

Ken555 said:


> F
> Dabo, have you looked into consolidators?



Yes, I have checked few times but they couldn't beat JAL reward ticket which I received by using Star Points (3.5cent/p).


dabo


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## dabo_gc (Aug 23, 2009)

RoshiGuy said:


> What I meant was that IF you can buy as many SP as you want at 3.5c then it does not make sense to buy TS and convert. Your actual cost of TS to SP conversion (taking all costs into account) will be pretty close to 3-3.5c. Might as well not lock into TS and simply buy the SP you need. But Starwood limits SP purchase to 20,000 per account so one cannot simply buy a large number of SPs.



My simulation shows me the same result as yours.     

I included interest which I should lose from my investment portfolio if I paid large amount of initial cost to buy TSes.

I buy 80K starpoints every year by using four accounts of my family members and convert to air miles then combine all together into one family pool account at JAL. If I need more, may be I'd better ask another members of my family to use their names who don't care about mileage program.

dabo


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## Joshadelic (Aug 23, 2009)

dabo_gc said:


> Recently, I noticed that many folks just believe Star Point is no worth to convert. (sml2181, I am very happy to know that you are doing what I want to do. Thank you.)
> 
> But one thing is clear for me, just like RoshiGuy and sml2181 wrote, that *Star Point is the only useful system in many hotel point programs when you redeem points especially to Air Miles and redeem again to get free air tickets in business or first class with long distance.* (Hotel/Air of Marriott seems OK, but can’t access with resale TSes)
> 
> ...



It's not me who is misunderstanding anything.  There are children in the world who are starving to death, not being educated, clothed or provided with proper shelter.  I just think that people who HAVE TO fly first class or business class and pay these astronomical prices for airfare need to take a look at their priorities.

Furthermore, your math is off by quite a bit on what these Starpoints you're trying to earn are actually going to cost you.  Also, as someone else said, that program could cease at ANY MOMENT.  Then what will you do with your timeshare weeks that are worth WAY LESS than 1/2 of what you paid for them.  How much money would you have saved then?

Do yourself and the rest of the world a favor and fly coach once in a while.  Take that extra money you were going to spend and feed a starving family.  You'd be surprised how good it might make you feel.


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## dabo_gc (Aug 23, 2009)

Joshadelic said:


> It's not me who is misunderstanding anything.  There are children in the world who are starving to death, not being educated, clothed or provided with proper shelter.  I just think that people who HAVE TO fly first class or business class and pay these astronomical prices for airfare need to take a look at their priorities.
> 
> Furthermore, your math is off by quite a bit on what these Starpoints you're trying to earn are actually going to cost you.  Also, as someone else said, that program could cease at ANY MOMENT.  Then what will you do with your timeshare weeks that are worth WAY LESS than 1/2 of what you paid for them.  How much money would you have saved then?
> 
> Do yourself and the rest of the world a favor and fly coach once in a while.  Take that extra money you were going to spend and feed a starving family.  You'd be surprised how good it might make you feel.



You are still misunderstanding. I've never written that I paid that big amount to get business tickets. I pay less than economy to get business. That's why I've been looking for the way to keep my cost down. Also, I have written why I needed business. What you wrote is the same as to tell "go to grave! " to somebody in the hospital who is paying lot of money to fight to get well. Also If I want bigmac or $300 dinner, it is my business. I'll never ask you why you keep such expensive resorts like Sheraton Desert Oasis, Sheraton Vistana Villages.

And risk is risk, benefit is benefit. In salad bowl there are many things. When I wanted to talk about cucumber, I want to talk about cucumber, not tomato.

Thank you.

dabo


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## Joshadelic (Aug 23, 2009)

Now you're not even making the least bit of sense.  Go sell crazy somewhere else... We're all stocked up here!

Your scheme to convert your prospective Starwood weeks into airline miles is almost as bad as the idea you had to purchase a bottom-feeder resort in Las Vegas that you only asked what to do with AFTER you had already bought it.  Do yourself a favor and step back and think about what you're doing before you make another mistake.

P.S.  If you knew what I paid for my "expensive" Sheraton Desert Oasis and Vistana Villages weeks, then you would be walking away with your tail between your legs.  You're not going to win this argument, so I'd suggest not replying.


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## Ken555 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joshadelic said:


> It's not me who is misunderstanding anything.  There are children in the world who are starving to death, not being educated, clothed or provided with proper shelter.  I just think that people who HAVE TO fly first class or business class and pay these astronomical prices for airfare need to take a look at their priorities.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Josh, you're changing the topic and it's not appreciated.  This was an objective discussion on utilizing SVO properties to convert to SP in order to redeem for frequent flyer award tickets. Now you've twisted this thread into one about social responsibility. Your opinion on people who fly business or first has absolutely no place in this discussion.

You're making this personal.

If you want to discuss social, environmental, or economic reasons to fly coach start a thread in the TUG Lounge. It doesn't belong here.

FWIW, you have absolutely no knowledge of Dabo other than he wants to fly his family via business class each year and is seeking the least expensive method to obtain those tickets. For all we know, he contributes significantly to non-profits that feed families. I just don't understand why you would interject such a comment in this thread. It doesn't make sense to me.

I suggest that everyone just ignore Josh's post (yes, I'm guilty of not taking my own advice).


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## Ken555 (Aug 23, 2009)

dabo_gc said:


> I buy 80K starpoints every year by using four accounts of my family members and convert to air miles then combine all together into one family pool account at JAL. If I need more, may be I'd better ask another members of my family to use their names who don't care about mileage program.



This is probably your best option at this time. It gives you the relatively affordable ticket cost that you seek, and also provides extreme flexibility. No up-front investment, no worry about future special assessments on the properties, no long-term commitment.


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## dabo_gc (Aug 24, 2009)

Thank you very much for your comments, Ken.

Yes, I found that I'd better buy SP from SPG when I need miles.


Please let me show my simple simulation that made me not to go for it.


-----------------------------------------------
  (3 Resale X WKV) + (3 New X Lagunamar) Total 6 TSes

a.  Initial Total Cost $98700
b.  Total MF $5477.28/year 
c.  Total SP 343500sp/year (Mile 429375)(SO 645600)
d.  Carrying Cost @7%  $6909/year
e.  ( b + d ) / c = $0.036059

   Amortization 50% in 10years $4925/year then e = ( b + d + $4925 ) / c = $0.5039

   If no Carrying Cost & no amortization then e = b / c = $0.0159

-----------------------------------------------

This simple simulation shows that buying TSes only for miles is not cost effective for me compare with buying SP from SPG. They have limits, though.

I'll forget about this plan.

But I'm still interested in what Katherine is doing. Even without converting into miles, there are so many benefits and enjoyment as she mentioned in her thread.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthr...3&highlight=II

So I'll take time and think about it.

I would like to thank you all for your comments, suggestions and recommendations. And I am very pleased that I had luck to find TUG and see kind and knowledgeable people who lead me to wonderful TS world.


dabo


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## Weez (Aug 24, 2009)

Joshadelic said:


> Do yourself and the rest of the world a favor and fly coach once in a while.  Take that extra money you were going to spend and feed a starving family.  You'd be surprised how good it might make you feel.



Wow it took me a whole 3 seconds to decide I'll keep flying first and leave the charity work to you


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## Ken555 (Aug 24, 2009)

dabo_gc said:


> Please let me show my simple simulation that made me not to go for it.
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------
> (3 Resale X WKV) + (3 New X Lagunamar) Total 6 TSes




It's been suggested earlier in this thread not to buy WKV is you plan on requalifying them. You can purchase WMH or SDO platinum weeks for much, much less than WKR and requalify them with Lagunamar. Maybe I'm missing something, but there are less expensive ways to get enough weeks to convert for your SPs.


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## dabo_gc (Aug 26, 2009)

Ken555 said:


> It's been suggested earlier in this thread not to buy WKV is you plan on requalifying them. You can purchase WMH or SDO platinum weeks for much, much less than WKR and requalify them with Lagunamar. Maybe I'm missing something, but there are less expensive ways to get enough weeks to convert for your SPs.



Thank you, ken.

Even if I set initial cost of resale TSes to zero, final $/SP become 0.0439 (included carrying cost of 7% and amortization 50% of total initial in 10years), which is still higher than $0.035/SP bought directly from SPG in cash. 

The point is yes or not to include carrying cost and amortization. If buying TSes for original reason such as staying or exchange to enjoy, probably I don't need to include them.

Also, my simulation shows me that buying TSes for SPs to redeem for rooms is not cost effective as well. Most of the time, it is cheaper to pay cash to stay at SPG hotel. This is the result only for myself. If some one could get TSes much cheaper and/or his carrying cost was something like 3%, there would be another story.


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## LisaRex (Aug 26, 2009)

I think you're wise not to pursue this, dabo.  For anyone else thinking of pursing this, let me add some things missing from your analysis:

1) You've indicated MFs of $5477, but have not built in any increases.  With very few exceptions, TS MFs increase every year.  Starwood MFs as a whole have outpaced inflation the last few years. At WKORV, for instance, we've seen 10%+ increases each year.  So you need to build in, at a minimum, a modest increase each year.  

Building in just a 3% increase:

Year 1: $5477
Year 2: $5641
Year 3: $5810
Year 4: $5984
Year 5: $6163
Year 6: $6347
Year 7: $6537
Year 8: $6733
Year 9: $6934
Year 10: $7142

So over 10 years, the MFs increased $1665 or 27%.  

A more realistic 5% increase:

Year 1: 5477
Year 2: 5750
Year 3: 6038
Year 4: 6340
Year 5: 6657
Year 6: 6989
Year 7: 7339
Year 8: 7706
Year 9: 8092
Year 10: 8496

The delta here is $3019, or a whopping 55%, over 10 years.

Note that Starwood does not adjust SPs to keep up with MFs.  If your 2 bdrm unit converts to 80k SPs now, in 10 years, you'll still only get 80k SPs.  Ergo, as time passes, the value of exchanging to SPs WILL decrease as MFs increase.   Buying a TS for the purpose of exchanging to hotel points guarantees you a diminishing return. 

2) Redemption tables change all the time.  5 years ago, 70k SkyMiles would have gotten me a round-trip to Maui in first class.  Now unless I'm lucky to grab a low tier ticket, I'm looking at a minimum of 150k SkyMiles for the same trip.

Ditto with Starwood points.  Four years ago, Starwood revamped their redemption chart, significantly increasing the number of SPs needed for nights.  When SVO sold the original owners on their TS, their spiel was that they could convert to SPs and stay in a Level 7 hotel "anywhere in the world" including Paris and London.  Now those 80k SPs will only get TWO nights in a Category 7 and perhaps 5 days in a Category 6.   MFs are now $2,000 per year.  That's quite an expensive hotel room.


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## dabo_gc (Aug 27, 2009)

Thank you for your comment, Lisa.

I was going to add MF increase at second step of my simulation, and another risks at third step to consider. But I stopped at very first step and there was no need to go further, because $/SP is high enough at the first step.

Many folks mentioned about many risks during this discussion, but for me, most of risks seemed to be controllable or there should be alternative pass way for me to find another benefit besides getting miles. But I thought MF increase was different. It's uncontrollable in any way and it affects straight to the cost of SPs.

At the moment SPG sells SPs for $0.035/SP, there is a limit though. If the price goes double up in the future like $0.07/SP, I still need them. Because $0.07/SP would be still good for me, compare with buying tickets in cash and I have no idea to get air ticket cheaper than SP to mile conversion. 

There is a very big difference between SPs to Miles and Cash for me to get air ticket. As I wrote previously, the cost of above mentioned business ticket was* ONLY $1960*(cheaper than buying economy seat) using SP vs.  *$8000-$10000* in cash. 

If SPG didn’t sell SPs for cash, I would buy TSes for SPs and be happy to accept MF increase and other risk, even though it was gambling. It would be better than doing nothing and kept paying $8000-$10000 just for ONE ticket (I had to pay this amount if I couldn’t get SPs or miles).

Let me write why I need business seat. As I wrote previously, I am getting old and have some troubles with my body. In low season, I sometimes take economy when they give me three seats with no extra charge to lie down and to keep my back stretched, especially in long haul.

Please excuse me for my poor English.

dabo


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## califgal (Aug 27, 2009)

Hi Dabo,
I don't think you owe anyone an explanation of why you need a business class seat. Josh was way out of line.  Naturally as we get older or have physical ailments we need more comfort, expecially on long flights.  I can't imagine expecting my 87 year old father in law flying from South Africa to San Francisco in coach!


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## LisaRex (Aug 27, 2009)

dabo, if you haven't checked out FlyerTalk, I think you should.  Unfortunately, some of the best means of accumulating StarPoints (such as the SPG AMEX) might not be available outside of the United States, but there are tons of tricks out there for folks like you who want to get the most benefits for your buck. 

A few things you might consider:

Starwood does limit the number of SPs you can buy to 20k.  But you can buy 20k for someone else (e.g. your spouse or your parents), and I don't see a limit to the number of SPs you can RECEIVE (though it's worth a call to SPG to make sure).  So if you have a spouse and two children with SPG accounts, then you can each buy and/or be gifted 80k StarPoints per year.  And if you have friends, the number you could be gifted is theoretically endless.  Make it known to your friends that you'd LOVE StarPoints in lieu of gifts!

Another thing to consider:  Many, if not all, airlines will allow you to book an award ticket in someone else's name.  So if your child has an SPG account and a JAL account, simply mimic what you're already doing for your child's account but book the first class ticket in your name. 

Finally, explore ways of accumulating JAL miles directly.  For instance, I accumulate thousands of SkyMiles each year by using the Delta.com shopping portal to do my internet shopping.  I check FlyerTalk often for promotions.  I just earned 8k SkyMiles for participating in their Pile On the Miles promo.  My goal is to accumulate these miles for as little out of pocket cash as possible. 

Good luck to you.


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## Ken555 (Aug 27, 2009)

LisaRex said:


> Starwood does limit the number of SPs you can buy to 20k.  But you can buy 20k for someone else (e.g. your spouse or your parents), and I don't see a limit to the number of SPs you can RECEIVE (though it's worth a call to SPG to make sure).  So if you have a spouse and two children with SPG accounts, then you can each buy and/or be gifted 80k StarPoints per year.  And if you have friends, the number you could be gifted is theoretically endless.  Make it known to your friends that you'd LOVE StarPoints in lieu of gifts!



Lisa,

Dabo purchases 80k SPs annually now and is looking for ways to make that purchase less expensive and find ways to accumulate more.

From post #25:



> There is no way to buy more than 20K/year Star Point from SPG. I buy 80K Star Points (cost $2800) every year by using four accounts, though. So if there is a way to get large amount of Star Points with TSes, we can say it is rare and big chance to reduce huge cost of airfare.


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## LisaRex (Aug 27, 2009)

Ken555 said:


> Lisa, Dabo purchases 80k SPs annually now and is looking for ways to make that purchase less expensive and find ways to accumulate more.post #25:



I took his below post (bolding mine) to mean that he'd purchase more than 80k if he could find a way around the 20k per person limit.  That's why I explained that he could also receive them as gifts, with seemingly no limit.  



			
				dabo_gc said:
			
		

> This simple simulation shows that buying TSes only for miles is not cost efective for me compare with buying SP from SPG. *They have limits, though*.


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## pathways25 (Aug 27, 2009)

LisaRex said:


> I took his below post (bolding mine) to mean that he'd purchase more than 80k if he could find a way around the 20k per person limit.  That's why I explained that he could also receive them as gifts, with seemingly no limit.



There is a limit.  Otherwise it would be a pretty big loophole and render the 20K self purchase limit meaningless.

From the SPG.com FAQ:

How many Starpoints may I buy for others?

A Starwood Preferred Guest account may receive up to a maximum of 20,000 Starpoints per account per calendar year, whether purchased by the member him/herself or received as a gift from another member; therefore, you may not buy more than 20,000 points for any single Starwood Preferred Guest account. If your purchase for another account exceeds their 20,000 Starpoint purchase/gift maximum, the recipient will be unable to claim this gift until the next calendar year. There are no refunds in these instances.


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## Ken555 (Aug 27, 2009)

Yes the limit is 20k per Starwood account. Dabo gets around that (as we all could) by purchasing 20k for multiple accounts, then depositing those points into one JAL account.


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## Ken555 (Aug 27, 2009)

LisaRex said:


> I took his below post (bolding mine) to mean that he'd purchase more than 80k if he could find a way around the 20k per person limit.  That's why I explained that he could also receive them as gifts, with seemingly no limit.



No worries. Here's another of Dabo's posts on the topic:



> I buy 80K starpoints every year by using four accounts of my family members and convert to air miles then combine all together into one family pool account at JAL. If I need more, may be I'd better ask another members of my family to use their names who don't care about mileage program.


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## LisaRex (Aug 27, 2009)

jeromechen said:


> A Starwood Preferred Guest account may receive up to a maximum of 20,000 Starpoints per account per calendar year, whether purchased by the member him/herself or received as a gift from another member.



Ahh, good catch.  I glanced over the T&Cs on SPG.com but didn't see this.  It's too bad AMEX doesn't have an international version of the SPG Amex.


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## bizaro86 (Aug 28, 2009)

The part where the disconnect isn't that his math is wrong, because it isn't. It's just that one key assumption that he is making does not hold true for most people. If you would honestly and truly pay $15,000 for an airline ticket that you could get for free using points, it really makes sense to buy the points, and using a TS can be a reasonable way to do that. 

Is airfare a better value than using it for stays in a timeshare? Probably not, but if you wouldn't buy a stay in a TS, but would buy a business class ticket, why should that matter? The way most people use starpoints is it a good deal to convert your TS? Probably not. But $30,000 of annual airfare savings is a lot. 

There's an easy way to tell if this math applies to you. Ask yourself this question: Have I ever paid $10,000 or more for a single airline ticket? If your answer (like mine) is, "No, that's crazy" then the math doesn't apply to you. But that doesn't make it wrong.

Michael


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