# Obesity in America



## pgnewarkboy (May 20, 2012)

HBO has a great documentary series on obesity that provides a great deal of needed information on this important topic.  If you don't have HBO I am sure it will be on DVD in the not too distant future.


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## Htoo0 (May 21, 2012)

I'm fixing up the snack foods, sodas and getting the couch ready in anticipation!


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## csaohio (May 21, 2012)

*Obesity & Health issues*

Hippocrates once said:  "Let your food be your medicine and your medicine be your food" yet there is an average of just 23.9 hours of nutritional training required for a doctor to be licensed in this country.  If allopathic doctors truly believed that food is medicine they would stop prescribing medications at the alarming rate that they currently do and focus on proper diet and exercise.  

The reality is that obesity is the new face of malnourishment in this country as the diet that many Americans choose is one of processed and refined food which has little or no nutritional value and the human body was not designed to absorb such garbage and function.   You wouldn't put sugar in the gas tank of your car and expect it to run.  Without proper nutrition the human body does not run properly either.

I've seen trailers for this HBO special and thus far I don't see that they provide anything new...just more information that most will ignore and their 'doctors' will marginalize.


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## Zac495 (May 21, 2012)

csaohio said:


> Hippocrates once said:  "Let your food be your medicine and your medicine be your food" yet there is an average of just 23.9 hours of nutritional training required for a doctor to be licensed in this country.  If allopathic doctors truly believed that food is medicine they would stop prescribing medications at the alarming rate that they currently do and focus on proper diet and exercise.
> 
> The reality is that obesity is the new face of malnourishment in this country as the diet that many Americans choose is one of processed and refined food which has little or no nutritional value and the human body was not designed to absorb such garbage and function.   You wouldn't put sugar in the gas tank of your car and expect it to run.  Without proper nutrition the human body does not run properly either.
> 
> I've seen trailers for this HBO special and thus far I don't see that they provide anything new...just more information that most will ignore and their 'doctors' will marginalize.



I just finished my unit on Ancient Greece and we talked about Hippocrates. He didn't discover a new medicine,but was the first doctor (well recorded history anyway) to say eat and exercise in moderation. Do people realize that more people die of obesity RELATED deaths (not including car accidents).

And yes - people are eating McDonalds until they're 700 pounds (Dr. Phil show). It's cheap. Poor people are more likely to eat this garbage regularly for that reason. 

We've become a lazy society - we buy bags of processed food (I, too, am guilty) and it's cheaper than buying all fresh foods and cooking. We're too busy to cook like that.

And then a kid becomes 300 pounds and is so maltreated that he goes home with his food for comfort and turns 700 pounds.

It's a terrible thing.


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## BevL (May 21, 2012)

Interesting about how little training doctors get in nutrition.  Recent bloodwork showed that my fasting glucose was a bit high and my "bad" cholesterol is quite high - good is high too but still.  A bit frustrating as I've lost 50 pounds in the last year, my BMI is now 23 and I walk about three miles at a good clip at least five days a week.

What I found interesting is that my doctor was muttering about checking on these things in a few months and looking at "options" at that time, which in doctor speak means medication, I'd guess.  It was me who requested a referral to a dietician to see if there's anything I could do that I'm not doing to improve.  She did the referral but shouldn't that be the first thing suggested, especially for someone who she acknowledges doesn't seem to have other obvious reasons for these things?

If you want to see first hand some of the consequences of not managing your diet, especially if diabetes is an issue, stop by a dialysis unit.  As you can see by my avatar, kidney disease is something that personally impacts me and it's not something you want to even have your doctor mention.

And yes, I agree too that part of the problem is that it is much harder to eat well if funds are limited.  Suggestions for what to do about that will definitely bring down the political discussion hammer but it's something that needs to be addressed.


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## csxjohn (May 21, 2012)

csaohio said:


> Hippocrates once said:  "Let your food be your medicine and your medicine be your food" yet there is an average of just 23.9 hours of nutritional training required for a doctor to be licensed in this country.  .



So it's obvious that a doctor is not the go to person when you have nutrition questions.

When I asked my doctor for help to start eating right and keep my weight under control he refereed me to a book by a nutritionist.

Let's not be blaming the doctors for the poor choices people make when it comes to eating, smoking, or other things that affect our health.


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## ace2000 (May 21, 2012)

csxjohn said:


> So it's obvious that a doctor is not the go to person when you have nutrition questions.
> 
> When I asked my doctor for help to start eating right and keep my weight under control he refereed me to a book by a nutritionist.
> 
> Let's not be blaming the doctors for the poor choices people make when it comes to eating, smoking, or other things that affect our health.


 
Disagree.  People go to doctors to get well and healthy.  Many health issues can be solved by diet.  You'd think doctors would get more nutritional training, but they don't.  Guess there's not incentive since there's no profit.


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## csxjohn (May 21, 2012)

*And I disagree*



ace2000 said:


> Disagree.  People go to doctors to get well and healthy.  Many health issues can be solved by diet.  You'd think doctors would get more nutritional training, but they don't.  Guess there's not incentive since there's no profit.



Why would you go to a person who has less than 24 hrs. (not my figures) in nutritional training with nutrition related questions and problems?.

It's called specialization.  You can't expect a medical doctor to be an expert on everything.  That's why there are heart specialist and orthopedic specialists and on and on.

If you have nutrition questions go to someone trained in and who specializes in that field.


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## BevL (May 21, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> Disagree.  People go to doctors to get well and healthy.  Many health issues can be solved by diet.  You'd think doctors would get more nutritional training, but they don't.  Guess there's not incentive since there's no profit.



Where I live, I need a referral to go to an actual dietician.  If I go to someone who sort of hangs a shingle out as a "nutritionist, it comes out of my pocket.  And actually it was my doctor who called me in to discuss my blood test results.  It was me who had to suggest that perhaps I should go talk to somebody about an alternative strategy than, "Let's wait and see and then maybe prescribe you something."  

If people are motivated and that's a big if, to take control of their own health to the degree they can, give them the tools they need to do that first.  Got to be more cost effective in the long run, I'd guess.

It's a complicated issue.  I think many people just don't think of the consequences until they're being slapped in the face with them.  Even then, it's a struggle.  So many emotional issues can factor into overeating, body image, comfort, reward, etc.

And the comparison to drinking or smoking always confuses me.  You can live quite comfortably (and probably better) if you never touch a cigarette or never touch an alcoholic beverage.  But that's not the case at all with food.  So to me, controlling your diet is much harder than controlling other "vices".


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## zinger1457 (May 21, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> Disagree.  People go to doctors to get well and healthy.  Many health issues can be solved by diet.  You'd think doctors would get more nutritional training, but they don't.  Guess there's not incentive since there's no profit.



Most people go to doctors to treat the symptoms of their problem.  Few are willing to do the hard work (diet and exercise) to truly get healthy, they just want the easy fix.  High blood pressure, take a pill.  High cholesterol, take a pill.  High glucose, take a pill.  And so on......  One of the biggest problems with the health care system in America is that there is little incentive, for both patient and doctor, to use preventive treatments.  We had McDonalds and processed foods 30 years ago and the obesity rate was much lower.  To me the big difference is today's sedentary lifestyle (video games, TV, computers, cellphones, etc.).  People now get most of their entertainment sitting on their butts.


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## csxjohn (May 21, 2012)

*Just to clarify*



BevL said:


> Where I live, I need a referral to go to an actual dietician.



I never actually went to a dietitian, I bought a book written by Tanya Zuckerbrot, M.S., R.D. (don't know what the initial all mean after her name).  It made a lot of sense and worked very well for me.

I know there are other resources out there without actually going to see someone for a fee.

I guess maybe I'm lucky to have a doctor who doesn't have a big ego problem and was able to direct me to something that could actually help my overall health.


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## Tia (May 21, 2012)

csxjohn said:


> If you have nutrition questions go to someone trained in and who specializes in that field.



And that is why doctors should recommend resources to people. Doctors are trained to prescribe drugs. My doctors office this year gives out a print out, new software, with tips on healthier living based on weight/height.


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## csxjohn (May 21, 2012)

zinger1457 said:


> Most people go to doctors to treat the symptoms of their problem.  Few are willing to do the hard work (diet and exercise) to truly get healthy, they just want the easy fix.  High blood pressure, take a pill.  High cholesterol, take a pill.  High glucose, take a pill.  And so on......  One of the biggest problems with the health care system in America is that there is little incentive, for both patient and doctor, to use preventive treatments.  We had McDonalds and processed foods 30 years ago and the obesity rate was much lower.  To me the big difference is today's sedentary lifestyle (video games, TV, computers, cellphones, etc.).  People now get most of their entertainment sitting on their butts.



As I'm agreeing with your assessment, I'm sitting here on my computer instead of getting outside on this beautiful day in Northeast Ohio.


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## csxjohn (May 21, 2012)

Tia said:


> And that is why doctors should recommend resources to people. Doctors are trained to prescribe drugs. My doctors office this year gives out a print out, new software, with tips on healthier living based on weight/height.



Good for that office.
I think this will become the norm.  I imagine the doctors get pretty frustrated telling people how to stay healthy and have the advice ignored.


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## Rose Pink (May 21, 2012)

csxjohn said:


> I never actually went to a dietitian, I bought a book written by Tanya Zuckerbrot, M.S., R.D. (don't know what the initial all mean after her name).  It made a lot of sense and worked very well for me.
> 
> I know there are other resources out there without actually going to see someone for a fee.
> 
> I guess maybe I'm lucky to have a doctor who doesn't have a big ego problem and was able to direct me to something that could actually help my overall health.



M.S. means a Master's degree in a science field.  The R.D. means Registerd Dietitian.  It is a credential from the American Dietetic Association given to those with a minimum of a bachelor's degree, an internship or equivalent hours, and the successful passing of the registration exam given by the ADA.  To keep R.D. status one must successfully complete a minimum of 75 hours of continuing education every five years.

They are well worth the fee.  I am not aware of any who will see a patient without a doctors referral, though.  They want to see your lab results and assessment from the doc so they can properly assess your needs.  An R.D. will take into consideration your medical history, your food allergies, likes and dislikes as well as your social/family needs and economic restrictions in tailoring a meal plan specific to you.  Books are great if they are well-written and science-based but they are meant for the general public and may not be specifically helpful to an individual.


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## Rose Pink (May 21, 2012)

As for exercise/activity, I think if I just imitated everything my 19 month old grandson does, I think I could shed several pounds! He can't seem to sit still and does regular laps around the couch or the kitchen island.

Beautiful child.  I think there must have been a lot of ugly babies born on the same day he was born because he got all the cute given out that day!


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## csaohio (May 21, 2012)

*Doctors have little vested interest in health...*



ace2000 said:


> Disagree.  People go to doctors to get well and healthy.  Many health issues can be solved by diet.  You'd think doctors would get more nutritional training, but they don't.  Guess there's not incentive since there's no profit.



It may sound extreme but I STRONGLY believe that doctors have a vested interest in managing disease instead of promoting health.  Just count how many advertisements they have in their offices for the drug companies!

I use a chart which indicates which nutrients are depleted by taking many popular prescription medications yet many doctors will say supplementation is not necessary but taking chemically altered herbs (prescription medications) is necessary....


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## csaohio (May 21, 2012)

BevL said:


> Interesting about how little training doctors get in nutrition.  Recent bloodwork showed that my fasting glucose was a bit high and my "bad" cholesterol is quite high - good is high too but still.  A bit frustrating as I've lost 50 pounds in the last year, my BMI is now 23 and I walk about three miles at a good clip at least five days a week.
> 
> What I found interesting is that my doctor was muttering about checking on these things in a few months and looking at "options" at that time, which in doctor speak means medication, I'd guess.  It was me who requested a referral to a dietician to see if there's anything I could do that I'm not doing to improve.  She did the referral but shouldn't that be the first thing suggested, especially for someone who she acknowledges doesn't seem to have other obvious reasons for these things?
> 
> ...



My DH was diagnosed with CKD in 2005.  The nephrologist suggested a regimen which started with steroids, stage 2 chemo, dialysis and a kidney transplant.  Not having health insurance, we decided to go with dietary changes and an herbal and supplement regimen.  7 years later my husband still has CKD but it he has lost 90 lbs.  brought himself out of a pre-diabetic condition and is able to manage his health through a diet and supplements.  We may not be able to heal the kidneys 100% but by supporting his body with healthy nutrition our goal is to keep him off of dialysis and AWAY from steroids, etc.


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## csxjohn (May 21, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> M.S. means a Master's degree in a science field.  The R.D. means Registerd Dietitian.  It is a credential from the American Dietetic Association given to those with a minimum of a bachelor's degree, an internship or equivalent hours, and the successful passing of the registration exam given by the ADA.  To keep R.D. status one must successfully complete a minimum of 75 hours of continuing education every five years.
> 
> They are well worth the fee.  I am not aware of any who will see a patient without a doctors referral, though.  They want to see your lab results and assessment from the doc so they can properly assess your needs.  An R.D. will take into consideration your medical history, your food allergies, likes and dislikes as well as your social/family needs and economic restrictions in tailoring a meal plan specific to you.  Books are great if they are well-written and science-based but they are meant for the general public and may not be specifically helpful to an individual.



Thanks for filling me in on those qualifications.  

I wasn't suggesting that reading a book is a substitute for seeing a professional.  In my case I was about 25 lbs over where I should have been, so I needed a push in the right direction.

Her book, The F Factor Diet, was very helpful to me.  I did not try to follow all the steps and keep track of what I ate and how many carbs, fat, and protein I was ingesting but I used her knowledge of how different foods work together and how they affect weight gain and loss.

It's been about 3 years now and I keep the book on top of my desk and refer to it often, at least twice a month.

I have to thank my doctor for leading me to this helpful tool.


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## pgnewarkboy (May 21, 2012)

This HBO series is comprehensive and surely most people will find information that is new to them.  It is the best overall presentation on the topic of weight in America I have ever seen.  It covers genetics, food supply,cultural changes in the last 40 years, diets,exercise,bariatric surgery and much more.   I don't  have a weight problem but I have already changed some of my habits based on the information from this series.


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## laurac260 (May 21, 2012)

One of the healthiest foods on the planet is Kale.  I recognized it in the grocery store immediately when I went to buy it.  

It was the stuff we used to use to decorate the salad bar at the Wendy's I worked at, oh so many years ago.  We'd use it, and when it wilted, we'd throw it out.  

Go figure....


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## Rose Pink (May 21, 2012)

laurac260 said:


> One of the healthiest foods on the planet is Kale.  I recognized it in the grocery store immediately when I went to buy it.
> 
> It was the stuff we used to use to decorate the salad bar at the Wendy's I worked at, oh so many years ago.  We'd use it, and when it wilted, we'd throw it out.
> 
> Go figure....



I've had it deep fried or sautéd to a delicious crispness similar to a potato chip.  Sprinkled with garlic salt it is quite tasty. and this was seved at a cafe specializing in locally grown organic foods.  Gotta pay attention and trust no one.


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## "Roger" (May 21, 2012)

zinger1457 said:


> ...We had McDonalds and processed foods 30 years ago and the obesity rate was much lower.  To me the big difference is today's sedentary lifestyle (video games, TV, computers, cellphones, etc.).  People now get most of their entertainment sitting on their butts.


I pretty much agree with the beginning part of the quote (which I removed), especially the idea that what people are really hoping for is that they can solve obesity by just taking a pill.  (Huge industry and current pills are pretty much snake oil.)

Yes, McDonald's was around 30 years ago (and obesity was already taking hold), but the portions were much smaller.  ("Super size it" not to mention the standard size of fries is now what had been the large size back then.)  Food is much cheaper, especially sweetners due to High fructose corn syrup.  Back then, the 24 oz. soda would have been unheard of.

Exercise?  I am an absolute believer in it for health benefits to both the mind and body.  But, exercise does not burn off calories that effeciently.  (One manufacturer of diet pills takes advantage of this by pointing out how much a person would have to work out to burn off one pound a week.  The commercial is meant to induce a sense of helplessness with a pill being offered as the more reasonable alternative.)  

A speaker in one of the TED talks pointed out that while people used to have jobs that were less sedentary, the amount of calories that they burned off because of that was fairly minimal (at least when compared to the amount of calories added by the larger portions being served today at fast food restaurants.)  However, there was a less direct relationship between more active jobs and health.  Many jobs used to be strenuous enough that people did not dare allow themselves to become obese.  If they did,  they would not have been able to perform their jobs.

Again, there are tremendous health advantages to even a modest amount of exercise, but cheap food (allowing all kinds of restaurants, not just the fast food industry to increase proportions) has had a bigger impact on the girth of the nation.  IMHO


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## pgnewarkboy (May 21, 2012)

"Roger" said:


> I pretty much agree with the beginning part of the quote (which I removed), especially the idea that what people are really hoping for is that they can solve obesity by just taking a pill.  (Huge industry and current pills are pretty much snake oil.)
> 
> Yes, McDonald's was around 30 years ago (and obesity was already taking hold), but the portions were much smaller.  ("Super size it" not to mention the standard size of fries is now what had been the large size back then.)  Food is much cheaper, especially sweetners due to High fructose corn syrup.  Back then, the 24 oz. soda would have been unheard of.
> 
> ...



Experts in the HBO series say that exercise is best for maintaining weight once it is lost.  You simply cannot exercise your way to weight loss - you must eat less calories.  Supersizing meals, and a more sedentary life style are other causes of weight gain.  The experts say that although there are many causes of weight gain and obsesity,  sugary drinks are a major culprit.  Empty calories that the body simply turns into fat.  Sodas are not the only source of sugary drinks many products advertised as healthy such as Gatorade type energy drinks and fruit drinks.have a great deal of sugar.  They say that instead of drinking orange juiice you should eat an orange.


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## pjrose (May 21, 2012)

With me, it's a vicious relationship between insomnia and night-eating.  I stoke up the furnace in the hope that I'll be able to sleep and not wake up hungry, then wake up hungry and don't have the willpower or desire to resist ice cream or anything with sugar....I know this is a mess and need to break the cycle.  My sleep and eat times are completely out of whack.

A friend went cold turkey on white sugar (and other sugars?) a few weeks ago; she was at day five last time I talked to her.  I'd like to do that.....getting past those first days or weeks would be hell, but in the long run it'd sure help.  

I LIKE healthy foods, I LOVE veggies, I don't even like fried food or potatoes, but I've got that damn sugar and chocolate addiction.  

My name is PJ and I am a sugar addict.


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## vacationhopeful (May 21, 2012)

My friend was telling me at lunch today about his SIL who was hassled at Disney World for taking a handicap seat on a ride. The 500lb man wanted to sit there. The SIL while sitting on the ride with his cane after much insistance by Disney staff and the loud 500lb person, the SIL produced his ADA card, his driver's license and his doctor's card. Yes, he weighs 125lbs and he carries a cane - but he has M.S. and is truly unsteady on his feet.

The 500lb man still demanded the SIL seat. Disney staff looked at the paperwork, said "okay" and said SIL keeps the seat.

*My point is, there is no SHAME in being 500lbs.* Everyone else should move aside for my electric scooter, let me be first in line, give me the parking space near the door, and not ask me to pay for things that I break when I sit on them.

PS The Disney staff persons were so busying trying to chill Mr 500lbs, no one extended any curtesy to the SIL with M.S. who had been verbally browbeaten. After all, he was on his honeymoon.


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## MuranoJo (May 21, 2012)

When I went in for my first visit to a new doc to establish an annual physical regimen, my glucose, weight, cholesterol, were all great.  But I take vitamin supplements and at the time was a fairly serious low-carber/good-carber (meaning I avoided all sugar, white bread, white rice, mashed potatoes, etc.).  Instead of the processed foods and sugars, I loaded my plate with veggies and salads, and some nuts and fruits.

But as soon as I told my doc I was on a low-carb lifestyle, she immediately shunned it.  Well, I had lost 25 lbs. in the previous 6 mos. and was also exercising and felt great.

I like this doctor and have stayed with her for other reasons, but I also know once I quit my regimen, I gain the weight back.  Don't blindly follow everything your doctor says.  Get other opinions, do some research, and know what works for you.


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## MOXJO7282 (May 22, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> Disagree.  People go to doctors to get well and healthy.  Many health issues can be solved by diet.  You'd think doctors would get more nutritional training, but they don't.  Guess there's not incentive since there's no profit.



Agreed. Solved by diet and more activity. It amazes me how few are physically active. 

And its criminal that we allow our kids to be subjected to all the garbage that is marketed out there while at the same time schools are eliminating alot of physical activities.


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## MOXJO7282 (May 22, 2012)

muranojo said:


> When I went in for my first visit to a new doc to establish an annual physical regimen, my glucose, weight, cholesterol, were all great.  But I take vitamin supplements and at the time was a fairly serious low-carber/good-carber (meaning I avoided all sugar, white bread, white rice, mashed potatoes, etc.).  Instead of the processed foods and sugars, I loaded my plate with veggies and salads, and some nuts and fruits.
> 
> But as soon as I told my doc I was on a low-carb lifestyle, she immediately shunned it.  Well, I had lost 25 lbs. in the previous 6 mos. and was also exercising and felt great.
> 
> I like this doctor and have stayed with her for other reasons, but I also know once I quit my regimen, I gain the weight back.  Don't blindly follow everything your doctor says.  Get other opinions, do some research, and know what works for you.



I saw a doctor on Dr Oz that was promoting a low carb type diet. I'm also on one and really like the way it makes me feel. 

How could anyone say what you're doing is not healthy? That is ridculous.


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## MuranoJo (May 22, 2012)

It's amazing how there's still a large medical community that discredits the words 'low carb.'  Just mention Atkins, and many immediately dismiss it.
Yet, if you look closely at some of the follow-on diets, they are just another version of Atkins.  

People don't bother to read or understand the fundamentals...instead they proclaim low carb is all about eating bacon and hot dogs.


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## Rose Pink (May 22, 2012)

That's because it was originally promoted that way.  Those first low carb diets were very unhealthy and the term "low carb" is still associated with that unhealthy diet.  I suggest "low carb" not be used to describe a healthy diet-- at least not in a general sense.  "Balanced carb" would be a better term, IMO.


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## Rose Pink (May 22, 2012)

Low carb is a meaningless term, IMO.  What does it really mean?  Less than 100 grams per day?  Less than 50 grams?  Depending on how many calories an individual needs could make the same grams of carb represent vastly differing percentages for different people.  So, it would make more sense to give a percentage of total calories such as 40% carb.  Then, again, if a person chooses pure sugars instead of complex carbs the diet isn't going to be very healthy.  So, it isn't just grams or percentages but rather types of foods.  I believe if you choose whole foods to begin with, most people will not need to worry about carbs.


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## MuranoJo (May 22, 2012)

I agree, low carb is not a good name, because, after all, you really could eat all bacon and hot dogs and be low carb.  I prefer to call it 'good carb.'

But I have to tell you, I read the Atkins book and followed it, and I never ate just bacon and hot dogs.  That book opened my eyes to really understanding there are good carbs and bad carbs, and what the difference is.

And I really learned how to pay attention and read ingredient lists on foods--and what they meant.  This is something that should be taught in grade school, IMO.


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## Htoo0 (May 22, 2012)

muranojo said:


> This is something that should be taught in grade school, IMO.



Along with how to handle finances and a host of other things probably more useful than the actual date the Magna Carta was signed. But what do I know?


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## pgnewarkboy (May 22, 2012)

*Weight loss causes permanent physiological changes*

You can and will lose weight on ANY diet as long as you severely restrict calories intake.  The trick and the hard part is keeping the weight off.  Physiological changes take place when people lose weight.  A person who lost weight (probably more than a couple of pounds) to get to lets say 175 pounds must eat LESS CALORIES every day then a person who has maintained their weight at 175 without having to diet.  The experts say that this change is permanent.


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## Larry6417 (May 22, 2012)

I should stop being surprised that so many people think that science and medicine are controlled through conspiracy for nefarious purpose (There's a cure for cancer! It's being suppressed by the drug companies!). As already stated, weight loss can take place if calories are reduced irrespective of type of diet. See http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa0804748

So are all diets the same if weight loss is equivalent? There are still some concerns about the long-term effects of an Atkins-type diet. Does anyone here actually think a diet low in fruits and vegetables is healthy over several years? Short-term studies show impressive results, but after a year or more Atkin's diet results are the same as other diets'.  See http://www.webmd.com/diet/atkins-diet-what-it-is

Another study from NEJM looked at protein content and glycemic index for long-term weight maintenance. A moderate protein content (25% of total calories) + low glycemic index diet appeared to be the most successful. See http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1007137#t=articleMethods

Atkins is privately owned. If you believe everything it claims then you may as well believe everything your resort claims too. For example, many of the newer studies (as above) have looked at *moderate* protein consumption. Atkin's diet proponents are now using those results to claim they were right all along!


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## geekette (May 22, 2012)

Larry6417 said:


> I should stop being surprised that so many people think that science and medicine are controlled through conspiracy for nefarious purpose (There's a cure for cancer! It's being suppressed by the drug companies!). As already stated, weight loss can take place if calories are reduced irrespective of type of diet. See http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa0804748
> 
> So are all diets the same if weight loss is equivalent? There are still some concerns about the long-term effects of an Atkins-type diet. Does anyone here actually think a diet low in fruits and vegetables is healthy over several years? Short-term studies show impressive results, but after a year or more Atkin's diet results are the same as other diets'.  See http://www.webmd.com/diet/atkins-diet-what-it-is
> 
> ...



Atkin's absolutely scares me.  I'm not "a dieter" but it seems to me that anything that cuts out ALL of anything is not good for the body.  Carb deprivation is not for me.  

Balanced diet + exercise works for me.  If I start to feel a bit pudgy, smaller portions, but I know that deprivation does not work long term for me ("I can never again ..." is not feasible)  and I have concerns about the long term effects of Atkins on anyone's body.  

~~~~

There are a lot of things schools "should" teach but even food comes down to a family style, preference, tradition.  I fear Miss Brooks may be in for it when she corrects Junior about portion control and he takes that info home to the family.    

Does Home Ec even exist anymore??  Has it changed to cover more than baking muffins and sewing on buttons?  Does Health class cover any of this?

Like any other Life Skill, the roots are at home, that's where the education needs to be.  I don't agree that McDonald's is cheaper than making your own burgers + fixins.  Timewise it is less costly.

Getting kids hooked on baked sweet potato fries makes a whole lot more sense than getting them on the deep fried kind but I'm sure not going to be the one that tells Working Mother of 4 that she needs to be preparing a nutritious meal each night for her family.  Not my place, not my call, not my business.  Some people Don't Cook, some don't have time, some have created finicky eaters that get their way with McNumNums and Pop Tarts.  

~~~~

previous post about 500 pounder vs MS sufferer:  shame is definitely missing, but I wonder if we really need it back?  There are a lot of stigmas we can bring back that some of us might not like.   I'm rather against shaming people based on appearance and it doesn't matter how much it is proclaimed that, no, it's about better health!   because the Fat Kid that doesn't know any better is going to be a lot worse off carrying shame along with the weight. It's not going to feel like a health issue.   

he is rather helpless to change what teh parents buy and serve to start with and further eroding his self-confidence via shame does not increase the chances of better health.   Educate him, give him confidence, not body issues and food issues.  

Shaming a large person could simply result in their eating more unhealthy crap to shove down the bad feelings.  

IMO, Shame is not the way.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 22, 2012)

Let me just add, that a high BMI or being big doesn't always mean unhealthy, i have several friends over the 200+ who are in better health then most of the 165lbs people out there

Granted a 500lbs person would tend to be less healthy then the average person, but that doesn't mean that the average 265lbs-300lbs person is less healthy then the average 130-175lbs person

Genetics plays a HUGE roll in your long term health, weight is a small player, ALMOST Trivial compared to family history

My BMI is very slightly over 30(30.2) but i'll sit next to any of the 'healthy' people on here in a doctors office any day and compare numbers


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## theo (May 22, 2012)

*Good stuff ---thanks!*



pgnewarkboy said:


> HBO has a great documentary series on obesity that provides a great deal of needed information on this important topic.  If you don't have HBO I am sure it will be on DVD in the not too distant future.



Thank you for providing the info /  reference. I just watched the "children" episode while slogging along on my elliptical machine (pulled it up via HBO "on demand"). Some of the expert testimony and statements were quite striking and profound, particularly one pointing out in no uncertain terms that the current generation of U.S. children is solidly on track to become the first generation to not outlive their parents.  

It was also interesting (although hardly shocking) to see specific cited examples of how much fight the processed food industry has in them in their eternal quest to preserve the status quo and / or increase their profits --- and consumer health be damned.

I remember when Ronal Reagan proclaimed ketchup to be a vegetable. I guess it's deja vu all over again --- school pizza now somehow gets categorized as a vegetable because it wears some tomato sauce.   

I'll look forward to watching the other installments of the series. Good on 'ya, HBO.


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## csxjohn (May 22, 2012)

*Helloooo?*



pjrose said:


> With me, it's a vicious relationship between insomnia and night-eating.  I stoke up the furnace in the hope that I'll be able to sleep and not wake up hungry, then wake up hungry and don't have the willpower or desire to resist ice cream or anything with sugar....I know this is a mess and need to break the cycle.  My sleep and eat times are completely out of whack.
> 
> A friend went cold turkey on white sugar (and other sugars?) a few weeks ago; she was at day five last time I talked to her.  I'd like to do that.....getting past those first days or weeks would be hell, but in the long run it'd sure help.
> 
> ...



PJ, your private message folder is full, I was going to send you another message.


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## pgnewarkboy (May 22, 2012)

*Shame and Obesity and Biology and Stress*

There have been a few posts here concerning shame and obesity.  The experts state something that is I guess quite obvioius when you think about it.  Eating is a basic human drive.  We are biologically driven to eat. For virtually all of human history scarcity of food supply was a way of life.  Consequently humans are biologically driven to stock up on food in their system when there is an ample supply in order to survive the certain time when food will be scarce.  I know that when I see a buffet it is very hard not to overeat. My biology says eat all you can even though my modern mind says this is not a good idea.

The biological drive to eat is pretty much a 24/7 affair.  In an era in this country where food is bountiful and continuously on display through ads we are pretty much being driven to overeat all the time.  Shame will not eradicate the drive to eat.  In fact, it will likely drive up levels of stress.  When stress kicks in, our cells , say they experts, expand to retain more fat.  They do that automatically as a survival technique.  More energy must be stored to fight or to run - to survive.  Our biology does not distinguish between our earlier prevalent forms of stress needed for fight or flight and the new modern stresses caused by factors too numerous to mention.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 22, 2012)

pgnewarkboy said:


> Shame will not eradicate the drive to eat.  In fact, it will likely drive up levels of stress.  When stress kicks in, our cells , say they experts, expand to retain more fat.  They do that automatically as a survival technique.  More energy must be stored to fight or to run - to survive.  Our biology does not distinguish between our earlier prevalent forms of stress needed for fight or flight and the new modern stresses caused by factors too numerous to mention.



Interesting, i've never read this before, so then would it be fair to say that the skinny, are either, less Stressed in life, or are more brave?


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## pgnewarkboy (May 22, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Interesting, i've never read this before, so then would it be fair to say that the skinny, are either, less Stressed in life, or are more brave?



Stress is a natural reaction to certain situations.  It has nothing to do with bravery.  People who act bravely are still stressed by the situation that caused them to act bravely.  Stress tells your body that action of some sort must be taken.  Certain hormones are released in order to allow your body to react to these situations.   I don't know if skinny people are lessed stressed or not than obese people.  Once again, stress is only one factor related to weight gain.  There are many other factors.


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## MuranoJo (May 23, 2012)

As I said, low carb is not a good name because you do eat carbs, good carbs, like tons of veggies.  Some fruits, depending on probably what is now called the glycemic index.  

Obviously still a lot of misinformation or stigma out there about Atkins or similar 'low-carb' diets.  I eat more veggies on an Atkins-type diet than I ever did, and more than most people.  A dinner typically includes a nice salad, plus 2 large servings of veggies and a protein.  I simply replace bread, mashed potatoes, or white rice, for instance, with an extra helping of veggies.
To each his own.  I know when I feel good and what my blood work says.



Larry6417 said:


> There are still some concerns about the long-term effects of an Atkins-type diet. Does anyone here actually think a diet low in fruits and vegetables is healthy over several years? [/url]





geekette said:


> Atkin's absolutely scares me.  I'm not "a dieter" but it seems to me that anything that cuts out ALL of anything is not good for the body.  Carb deprivation is not for me.


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## Larry6417 (May 23, 2012)

muranojo said:


> As I said, low carb is not a good name because you do eat carbs, good carbs, like tons of veggies.  Some fruits, depending on probably what is now called the glycemic index.
> 
> Obviously still a lot of misinformation or stigma out there about Atkins or similar 'low-carb' diets.  I eat more veggies on an Atkins-type diet than I ever did, and more than most people.  A dinner typically includes a nice salad, plus 2 large servings of veggies and a protein.  I simply replace bread, mashed potatoes, or white rice, for instance, with an extra helping of veggies.
> To each his own.  I know when I feel good and what my blood work says.



The article on weight maintenance I cited used ~ 50% carbs (low GI) - far more than would be called for in a true Atkins diet. Having moderate protein, carbs, and fats is a perfectly reasonable approach, but that's not a true Atkins diet. The sine que non of a true Atkins diet is *ketosis* - not very likely when getting 50% calories from carbohydrates. Much of the misinformation is from the Atkins company itself!

P.S. Atkin's or _Atkin's-type _diets should not be confused with low glycemic index diets.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 23, 2012)

muranojo said:


> To each his own.  I know when I feel good and what my blood work says.



This is an important point to make in every thread about the 'health food epidemic' that is currently attacking American citizens!  Every BODY is different, while some may not be able to eat anything but grapes without going into a diabetic coma or suffering health issues, others can live on McDonalds, taco bell and Potato Chips and live a long happy life well into there 80's and 90's

This is an important thing to remember before you think of speaking to someone else about how they eat


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## Tia (May 23, 2012)

Dr. Phil has a morbidly obese woman on yesterday with her family, prob parts of the show online. DENIAL was the name of the game sadly...


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## pgnewarkboy (May 23, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> This is an important point to make in every thread about the 'health food epidemic' that is currently attacking American citizens!  Every BODY is different, while some may not be able to eat anything but grapes without going into a diabetic coma or suffering health issues, others can live on McDonalds, taco bell and Potato Chips and live a long happy life well into there 80's and 90's
> 
> This is an important thing to remember before you think of speaking to someone else about how they eat



"health food epidemic" ?   Don't think so.  Junk food epidemic?  Of course.  For every McDonalds, Arby's, Burger Kings,Wendy's,KFC's,Dunkin Donuts,Taco Bell,Fridays, Tuesdays,Cheesecake Factories,Olive Gardens,Outback Steakhouse,Subway,Dennys, etc. etc. there are how many health food restaurant chains? NONE.

How about the Supermarket.  How many health food aisles at the supermarket compared to the rest of the highly processed,sugary,and fatty items worth of aisles?

The FACTS ARE IN.  WE are a nation of overweight people sick from the diseases caused by being overweight includiing diabets, heart disease, and cancer.  It is costing us billions of dollars in medical care and billions more in lost productivity.


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## geekette (May 23, 2012)

pgnewarkboy said:


> "health food epidemic" ?   Don't think so.  Junk food epidemic?  Of course.  For every McDonalds, Arby's, Burger Kings,Wendy's,KFC's,Dunkin Donuts,Taco Bell,Fridays, Tuesdays,Cheesecake Factories,Olive Gardens,Outback Steakhouse,Subway,Dennys, etc. etc. there are how many health food restaurant chains? NONE.
> 
> How about the Supermarket.  How many health food aisles at the supermarket compared to the rest of the highly processed,sugary,and fatty items worth of aisles?
> 
> The FACTS ARE IN.  WE are a nation of overweight people sick from the diseases caused by being overweight includiing diabets, heart disease, and cancer.  It is costing us billions of dollars in medical care and billions more in lost productivity.



Some of the availability depends on where you live.  we have a lot of independent restaurants and A LOT of ethnic grocery stores and while I can't say the word "healthy" is in any of them, one can probably find what they seek since we seem to have something for every taste and interest.  No chains, you are right.  It is still a niche offering because the demand isn' t there and the restaurant business can be brutal.  Some are vegetarian, others are organic-only, some are local-grown only, others use no fat, etc., they all have "their schtick".  

We also have the variety in the stores.  And plenty of health food stores - Whole Foods, Wild Oats , and several indies.  

I agree you cannot find a Healthy Food Aisle in a regular grocery but that doesn't mean that better choices can't be made.  Our Marsh groceries that have the "lifestyle model" often contain a lot of interesting products that most groceries won't, and many are simply better products, health-wise.  If one stays in the regular aisles they may never find the more interesting offerings in the spokes but may have a faster shopping trip picking up their mainstream selections like they always have.   

Of course I don't think any of us believe that the problem is availability of good ingredients, it's the lack of motivation to buy good ingredients and prepare healthy meals from them.  

I had a Subway sandwich today.  tuna on multigrain with a pile of veggies on it.  I needed brain food, tuna works.  I didn't have a lot of time, Subway is close and fast and reasonably priced (yes, I can make my own tuna salad sandwich for a fraction of what I paid, but, I needed the convenience).  We could paint all fast food joint with the same brush, but I'd prefer we didn't.  even the worst offenders do offer some healthier selections.  It is up to the individual to make their selections.  No one is ever forced to buy the McArteryClogger, even if the voice in the clown's mouth asks if we'd like to try it today.   

I have never bought a parsnip but I'm pretty sure groceries have been offering them for years.   Do I blame the store for not putting them right beside something I do buy regularly?  No, I understand that it is my own lack of motivation to try a parsnip that prevents me from buying one.   

My point is, it remains up to each individual to make their own choices.  America is the land of plenty.  If you want something specific, you can probably find it.  If you are willing to settle for whatever is on the dollar menu at the drive thru, well, there you go.


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## Passepartout (May 23, 2012)

Tia said:


> Dr. Phil has a morbidly obese woman on yesterday with her family, prob parts of the show online. *DENIAL* was the name of the game sadly...



Shucks, I thought it was the name of a river in Egypt. 

Jim


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## Rose Pink (May 23, 2012)

It's my middle name.


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## Htoo0 (May 24, 2012)

Passepartout said:


> Shucks, I thought it was the name of a river in Egypt.
> 
> Jim



Then you would be de nile.


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## theo (May 24, 2012)

*It's worse than that...*



pgnewarkboy said:


> The FACTS ARE IN.  WE are a nation of overweight people sick from the diseases caused by being overweight includiing diabets, heart disease, and cancer.  It is costing us billions of dollars in medical care and billions more in lost productivity.



Having now watched another two installments of "Weight of the Nation", I think that you actually understate the impact of this (...ahem) "growing" problem.

At risk is the overloading of our medical system, too busily engaged in treating obesity-induced ailments. 
Our military currently has to reject a huge (...no pun intended) percentage of applicants who are just too overweight and too unfit to even be accepted for basic recruit training in the first place.

Ultimately, aside from the individual health risks, our preeminent status as a world power is also at stake. 
A nation of *68%* overweight or obese people, eating crap and waddling slowly about between episodes of "Dancing with the Stars" and "American Idol" is *not* one which will long retain its' place of power or influence (or respect) in the world and / or a global economy.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 24, 2012)

theo said:


> Having now watched another two installments of "Weight of the Nation", I think that you actually understate the impact of this (...ahem) "growing" problem.
> 
> At risk is the overloading of our medical system, too busily engaged in treating obesity-induced ailments.
> Our military currently has to reject a huge (...no pun intended) percentage of applicants who are just too overweight and too unfit to even be accepted for basic recruit training in the first place.
> ...



Our medical system is a mess, it has been for awhile, doctors and medical providers focus too much on 'cures' for problems, what they need to do, as they do in other nations is to focus on 'prevention' of problems.  While i agree that some overweight people are putting an undo strain on our medical system because of their lack of self control, I think if you start looking deep into family history you'll find that, while these problems are made worse by the weight, the weight isn't always the problem....the 'Obese' go to the doctor on average 3-5x more often then the average person, they actually GET the preventative advice, they catch the problems before they become major....The problem is those that only go to the Doctor AFTER a problem has occurred...these people wait until the problem is so major that they sap hundreds of thousands of dollars out of the insurance companies and months of medical procedures in one drop...The 'health nut' is the worst of the worst when it comes to this!  They think because they only eat twigs and berries and take the stairs to work that they can completely ignore how the human body and genetics actually work....I bet in about 20-30 years we will find out that all these 'diet fads' and 'health cult' tv shows are the worst thing that ever happened to this nation

As for our global standing....As long as we remain the largest Consumers in the world, we will be the most powerful nation in the world, we are the richest nation in the world, not on a per capita basis, but the majority of the worlds reserve currency is in US dollars, oil is sold and bought in dollars...If we go down, the WORLD goes down...Our Military has been misused for decades, don't get me wrong, i respect the solider, but, the 'wars' are a different story...America isn't respected because of our military movements, if anything we've lost respect on a global scale because of our take overs....our Elite Corporations are feared because of our military


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## Janette (May 24, 2012)

You don't have to eat twigs to be healthy. With a hubby with bad genetic coronary problems, we do try to eat healthy. We aren't nuts about it but try to eat with knowledge. I do not cook with recipes from my southern heritage as I know that diet has too much bad fat and salt. It is hard to believe that educated people don't know which foods or good or bad but yet I see members of my family heading toward problems. I think you are wrong about healthy people not seeing doctors. Most of my friends have regular wellness check-ups. We exercise but aren't obsessed and eat sensibily. If it is in ths house, I eat it. Shopping correctly is a big key and eating in. With good grocery shopping, we can have a good meal on the table in less than an hour. It just takes planning.


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## csxjohn (May 24, 2012)

*I disagree (imagine that)*



Ridewithme38 said:


> , the weight isn't always the problem....the 'Obese' go to the doctor on average 3-5x more often then the average person, they actually GET the preventative advice, they catch the problems before they become major...



I don't know where you get these figures, 3-5xmore?  

The flaw in your argument is that getting advice and taking the advice are two different things.

If people followed the medical advice of their doctors obesity and smoking in this country would be non-existent.  And we all know how that's working out.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 24, 2012)

Janette said:


> You don't have to eat twigs to be healthy. With a hubby with bad genetic coronary problems, we do try to eat healthy. We aren't nuts about it but try to eat with knowledge.



This is where the 'health nuts' and I disagree, while we both agree that the obese are unhealthy, we disagree on the cause of that unhealthiness...If you sit down with an overweight person and go through their family history, in most cases you will find, that the health problems that plague them now, have been in their family for generations, its beyond the 'you're ONLY sick because your obese' argument...Sure the weight can Cause an underlying family problem to hit a little harder...But that underlying problem is there no matter what you weight

Janette:  Its great that you and your husband are making moves to eat 'carefully' because of his underlying genetic issues, i don't want you to think i'm making light of this, our coronary system is pretty important and if there is(as you said there is in this case) an underlying problem, its best to 'tread lightly' and trying to 'prevent' anything that may cause it problems


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## Ridewithme38 (May 24, 2012)

csxjohn said:


> I don't know where you get these figures, 3-5xmore?
> 
> The flaw in your argument is that getting advice and taking the advice are two different things.
> 
> If people followed the medical advice of their doctors obesity and smoking in this country would be non-existent.  And we all know how that's working out.



That number is FMA

I still think the 'health cult' is going to cause major problems in the future....Your body isn't a trash compactor that you can just throw random things into like bark and roots and hope it'll chew it up and get used to it, its more like a car engine with a Learning ECU, My i can use Regular, Special, or Super gas in my car, my ECU adjusts timing and spark to compensate, but first it had to 'learn' (be programmed) to know how to compensate

EXTREME EXAMPLE: Think of it this way, if all you ever eat is....cherry tomato's, your body will learn ONLY how to run correctly off the the vitamins and nutrients in cherry tomato's, if you decide to go out to lunch and have...Green peppers, your body will have NO IDEA what to do with that fuel, its never been 'programmed' to use that fuel, you'll find yourself feeling drowzy and sick Real fast! Over a lifetime, this gets worse and worse and eventually gets passed on to your kids and their kids, until we end up with an entire generation that gets sick off anything but...cherry tomatos

This is what the 'health nuts' are doing to their bodies right now, they are only putting a select few things in their bodies, then when they 'cheat' on the 'diet fad' and eat real food, they start to feel tired all the time and sick....The bodies an amazing thing, limiting does nothing but put stress on and WILL lead to a sickly generation that is 'allergic' to anything but what the 'diet cult' tells them to eat


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## vacationhopeful (May 24, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> ...If you sit down with an overweight person and go through their family history, in most cases you will find, that the health problems that plague them now, have been in their family for generations, its beyond the 'you're ONLY sick because your obese' argument...Sure the weight can Cause an underlying family problem to hit a little harder...But that underlying problem is there no matter what you weight
> 
> .(clipped)



I won't say there isn't a thread of truth - but not to the extentant that 68% of the population is obese. It is mostly "learned" eating habits. 

My mother ate sugar on tomato slices. As kids, we ate sugar on tomato slices. Sugar tastes GOOD to me on tomato slices - but my mom had blood sugar over 300 and denied she had a problem with diabeties. She was skinny her whole life and died at 79 yo with her 5'9" frame carrying only 97lbs. The dementia destroyed her brain - she either stopped breathing or had a stroke. Diabeties is a very big cause of dementia. 

I stopped eating sugar on tomato slices when I was about 19. I don't drink many sodas (less than 3 a week) and most are caffine and sugar free. I limit my bread and potatoes (carbs) to 7-10 servings per week. My doctors tells me to do MORE - and I do try harder. I have lost weight yearly for the past 8 years - averages about 6 lbs per year (50lbs roughly). 

But my numbers were good enough to get the Preferred Discount OFF my longterm care insurance several years ago --- shock & awe for my health fanatic RN sister. 10% Discount rate, base rate, 10% surcharge rate, 20% surcharge rate, REJECTED applicates. And I was the only person of the salesman's applications who got the discount rate in that month --- he was bubbling with delight ---- as when he took my application, he too figured I was in the 10% surcharge class (and I told him straight up, I would not accept it and would apply again next year).

So while you state "NOT all fat people have bad health" - I believe the inverse is the correct status -- "NOT all skinny people are healthy". Particularily any persons who use the cornor as their pharmacy or who drink alcohol heavily or who smokes anything.

My opinions.


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## heathpack (May 24, 2012)

On average it costs $6600 more per year to care for persons with type II diabetes, which is a disease essentially CAUSED by a poor diet.

Currently, approximately 20 million Americans have type II diabetes.  That's about 130 million dollars PER YEAR in additional health care costs.

Obesity will indeed break the bank if the problem is not fixed.  Type II diabetes is just one metabolic disease caused by calorie excess.  When you tally up all the costs- diabtetes, heart disease, increased cancer incidence, renal failure/dialysis, fatty liver/liver transplant, cataracts, joint disease, lost productivity- it is absolutely unsustainable.  The problem simply must be addressed, or we will all suffer the consequences, thin or overweight.

That is the hard reality, denial does not unfortunately help anyone.

H


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## Ridewithme38 (May 24, 2012)

heathpack said:


> On average it costs $6600 more per year to care for persons with type II diabetes, which is a disease essentially CAUSED by a poor diet.
> 
> Currently, approximately 20 million Americans have type II diabetes.  That's about 130 million dollars PER YEAR in additional health care costs.
> 
> ...



Type II Diabetes is hard to dispute it's something like 85+% percentage caused by obesity(i don't know the exact number)...But then you bring up heart disease, cancer, liver issues, cataracts, joint disease....These are all equally genetic and environmental as caused by obesity...And Really? Loss of Productivity?? I mean you stop JUST SHORT of blaming global warming on weight gain!

It just seems like people are looking for a fall guy for an already failing system...Sure, Obese people aren't fun to look at, but neither are really scrawny people who live off bark and leaves and barely have enough strength to lift their 'Soy Latte's' in the morning


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## heathpack (May 24, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Type II Diabetes is hard to dispute it's something like 85+% percentage caused by obesity(i don't know the exact number)...But then you bring up heart disease, cancer, liver issues, cataracts, joint disease....These are all equally genetic and environmental as caused by obesity...And Really? Loss of Productivity?? I mean you stop JUST SHORT of blaming global warming on weight gain!
> 
> It just seems like people are looking for a fall guy for an already failing system...Sure, Obese people aren't fun to look at, but neither are really scrawny people who live off bark and leaves and barely have enough strength to lift their 'Soy Latte's' in the morning



It is a FACT that obesity increases the incidence of heart disease, cancer, renal failure, fatty liver/liver failure, joint disease, cataracts.  What I am referring to when I say obesity will break the bank is the increased incidence of these diseases.

Did you know, Ride, for example, obesity increases the likelihood of renal failure requiring dialysis by nearly 90%?  Do you appreciate how expensive dialysis is? Obesity-related renal failure is a preventable disease.

H


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## "Roger" (May 24, 2012)

Twigs and berries... that is one of the more insulting and misinformed statements that I have seen on TUG. I am sure that I qualify as a health nut.  Dinner last night... beef stroganoff with a combination of mushrooms served over rice with green beans on the side.  The night before ate out at a highly rated gourmet restaurant.  It was small plate night where I was able to eat multiple courses without taking a styrofoam box home because of gross proportions.  The night before chicken with curry sauce and jasmine rice. etc. etc. etc.

What is missing here?  No soda ... just water (or wine with dinner) and no desserts.  To call a varied diet with sensible proportions twigs and berries is ridiculous and demeaning.



Ridewithme38 said:


> ...Sure the weight can Cause an underlying family problem to hit a little harder...But that underlying problem is there no matter what you weight
> 
> ...


Yes, it is genetics and environment as you acknowledge, but passing off the current problems as just a family problem hitting a little harder is a case of that old Egyptian river coming to the fore.  The number of teenagers suffering from diabetes or prediabetes has tripled from just 1999-2000 to 2007-08 (recent NY Times article) and now stands at near 25%.  Sure the underlying problem would be there no matter what (as to most of the problems mentioned in this thread).  But if there is a typhoid epidemic, I would not brush it off as "well there is a genetic predisposition for people to catch typhoid and the underlying problem would be there no matter what."


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## Ridewithme38 (May 24, 2012)

heathpack said:


> It is a FACT that obesity increases the incidence of heart disease, cancer, renal failure, fatty liver/liver failure, joint disease, cataracts.  What I am referring to when I say obesity will break the bank is the increased incidence of these diseases.
> 
> Did you know, Ride, for example, obesity increases the likelihood of renal failure requiring dialysis by nearly 90%?  Do you appreciate how expensive dialysis is? Obesity-related renal failure is a preventable disease.
> 
> H



Your not looking at the Cause though Heath, why do YOU think people that tend to be in poor health, also have poor metabolisms and tend to put on weight easier then the rest of us...

It's genetics...I eat like a horse and eat almost nothing but fast food, i never work out and work a sedentary job at a desk 8-10hrs a day...I should be 400lbs and have died YEARS ago based on what the 'health cults' say....But i feel great, my blood pressure is fine, my sugar level is ok, i'm never sick...Its the same with my Parents and their parents before them...all lived to their upper 90's and ate anything put in front of them(Great grandma lived to be 106yrs old and used a pound of butter everytime she cooked)The 'health Cults' and 'health nuts' go crazy when they hear about the millions of people just like me, they say 'it'll catch up to you' then i point out my father, who's in his 60's eats what ever he wanted all his life and works in an office and the doctors can't find a thing wrong with him....You see, my family doesn't have an Genetic history of sicknesses, we don't have a genetic disposition for weight gain(although i'm a little over weight)

I wish i had the resources available to me to prove my theory that a genetic disposition towards illness goes hand in hand with a genetic disposition for weight gain, but unfortunately even if i did, the 'health cult' company's won't let it be released, heck they made over 40 billion dollars last year...Why would they want to tell the truth and wreak all that?


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## Mel (May 24, 2012)

Add to that the diet we all eat - and I don't mean the fats and sugars, and the overeating by that 68% who are obese.  What percentage of our diet is processed foods?  What percentage of kids today know what a truly fresh vegetable of fruit is?  Corn on the cob might seem fresher than that can of corn, but I honestly don't know which is healthier - I might know if I knew more about how the can of corn was processed.  I live in CT, where nothing local is fresh at the moment, yet people are tricked into believing they are eating "fresh" vegetables.  That corn was harvested on the west coast (or maybe even in another country), and trucked here, it say in a box in the warehouse for a day or two before making its way to the display at the store.  For many families, they purchased it sunday (mom and dad's day off) to serve for dinner tonight.  Sorry, that's not fresh!  Maybe natural, though I doubt that too, because the corn seed used to grow it was probably genetically manipulated to make it sweeter, and last longer.  The corn in the can probably was packed with preservatives - what are they doing to our bodies?

Perhap part of the reason those other countries are more healthy is because they by default eat fresh local foods.  Some schools are finally trying to do something about it, but it will take time to see an impact.


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## zinger1457 (May 24, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> It's genetics...I eat like a horse and eat almost nothing but fast food, i never work out and work a sedentary job at a desk 8-10hrs a day...I should be 400lbs and have died YEARS ago based on what the 'health cults' say....But i feel great, my blood pressure is fine, my sugar level is ok, i'm never sick...



So now it's the big 'health cult' conspiracy?  Using the same logic you could say because someone smoked 3 packs a day and never got cancer then smoking doesn't cause cancer.  The link between obesity and many illnesses are well proven no matter how you try and spin it.


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## pwrshift (May 24, 2012)

I think if we all eat Heath's mini pies we'd all be much happier.  Fatter, perhaps, but happy.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 24, 2012)

zinger1457 said:


> So now it's the big 'health cult' conspiracy?  Using the same logic you could say because someone smoked 3 packs a day and never got cancer then smoking doesn't cause cancer.  The link between obesity and many illnesses are well proven no matter how you try and spin it.



I think smoking causes cancer for those that are Prone to get cancer...if you have an underlying problem, doing unhealthy things makes those underlying problems worse....if you have a broken leg, walking on it makes the injury worse...I'm an basicly an ex-smoker...i went from cigarettes to Electronic Cigarettes about 2yrs ago

Cancers a tough thing, there are tons of different causes for each of the dozens of different types of cancer...you can't say that lung cancer is only caused by smoking any more then i can say it isn't caused by smoking...But NON-Smokers DO get lung cancer just like some smokers NEVER get lung cancer...the difference??  

Genetics...


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## talkamotta (May 25, 2012)

Zac495 said:


> I just finished my unit on Ancient Greece and we talked about Hippocrates. He didn't discover a new medicine,but was the first doctor (well recorded history anyway) to say eat and exercise in moderation. Do people realize that more people die of obesity RELATED deaths (not including car accidents).
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## "Roger" (May 25, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> ...But NON-Smokers DO get lung cancer just like some smokers NEVER get lung cancer...the difference??
> 
> Genetics...


Sorry, not the right conclusion (leading to some very bad advice).  (This is going  to be a long post.)

Let's start with something where genetics can be a very strong factor.  A modest majority of people (60%) have two copies of the APOE3 gene, but some have either one or two copies of the APOE2 or APOE4 gene.  Having one copy of the APOE4 gene increases your chances of contracting late onset (after the age of 65) Alzheimers by a factor of four.  Having two copies (one from each parent) increases the likelihood by a factor of 10.  But not everyone with two copies of APOE4 contracts Alzheimers and people with two copies of APOE3 still contract it (but in smaller numbers).  The difference?

Some forms of cancer are susceptible to genetic inheritance.  The most well studied is the relationship between different forms of the BRCA gene and breast cancer.  Still, having the worst forms does not guarantee breast cancer (not even to the extent of the APOE4 and Alzheimers) nor can having the best combination guarantee that you will not contract it.  The difference?

Now we can start discussing smoking and lung cancer.  Cancers are basically mutant genes.  Every body (or everybody) produces mutant genes continually and some survive.  Just having a large array of mutant genes (quite probabably even some cancerous ones) does not guarantee the onset of cancer.  

To draw an analogy, a single sperm cell can fertilize an egg, but if a male generates 100,000 sperm cells per milliliter, he can be considered effectively impotent.  (The normal concentration of sperm cells is a shifting figure.  It has been dropping for decades - a cause for some concern.)  Even at that seemingly high concentration, randomness rules against fertility.

As far as smoking and lung cancer go, there might possibly be a gene that makes smokers more susceptible to lung cancer, but I have not seen any report of it.  The standard explanation is that as we grow older, our bodies contain more and more mutant genes.  That is why older people are more susceptable to cancer, but, with bad luck, younger people can contract it too.  It is all a function of randomness with higher concentrations of mutant cells loading the  dice against you.

What smoking (an enviromental consideration) itself does is greatly increase the number of mutant cells in the lungs.  In this case,  an environmental factor simply increases the likelihood of randomness working against you.  A heavy smoker is seven times as likely to contract lung cancer as a non-smoker.

Finally (and this brings us back to the main topic of this entire thread) is that the biggest risk that smokers face is not lung cancer, but heart attacks.  Smoking increases the risk of a heart attack by two.  If only by two, why is this the biggest risk?  Not that many non-smokers contract lung cancer.  Multiplying a small number by seven still results in a fairly small number.  Lots of non-smokers suffer from heart disease.  Multiplying a very large number by two results in an even bigger number.  Expressed differently, the number of "excess deaths" (official term) that are the result of smoking and heart disease is much greater than the "excess deaths" that are the result of smoking and lung cancer.

The bottom line is that smoking, heart disease, etc. is not merely a matter of genetics, but a combination of genetics, environment, and randomness.  You can't control two of these factors, but can influence the third.

Giving up tobacco smoking is the single wisest thing that you could do.  Unfortunately, the after effects of smoking last about thirty years (gradually decreasing).  If you can do something more, not to do so is like leaving a second bullet in one of the chambers while playing Russian roulette.  It plays into the hands of randomness.

My suggestion... (here it comes), a varied diet (which is far tastier than simply "twigs and berries"), small portions (avoid obesity) and moderate exercise (good news here ... you don't have to be a workout warrior).  These are the things that you can control and give you the best chances.  Unfortunately, even doing your best, there are no guarantees in life.  People with two copies of APOE3 do contract Alzheimers, non-smokers do get lung cancer, and  ...  But why put that extra bullet in the second chamber?


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## csxjohn (May 25, 2012)

I can't wait to see Ride's answer to this, stay tuned.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 25, 2012)

csxjohn said:


> I can't wait to see Ride's answer to this, stay tuned.



Shh! I've got to pretend i didn't read it! It makes too much sense, i can't think of a way i can even pretend to disagree with most of it!

Especially this part, that sums it up well:

They are 





> not merely a matter of genetics, but a combination of genetics, environment, and randomness. You can't control two of these factors, but can influence the third.



I still believe that genetics is the #1 issue in most of these things, but he's right, its not something you can control....i guess not everyone comes from a perfect gene pool like i do  So for those lesser humans  (J/K!) i guess the best they can do to control their risks is to control their diet

I think you guys need to talk to your parents about your gene's though...you've been robbed :rofl:

I'm in a good mood, i'm leaving for Hershey in just a couple hours, sure its not Hawaii or the Carribean or even Mexico....But heck, every vacation is a great vacation!


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## theo (May 25, 2012)

*Tune in --- or tune out?*



csxjohn said:


> I can't wait to see Ride's answer to this, stay tuned.



Thanks just the same, but in this particular instance I much prefer to stay "tuned *out*" instead.

Gosh, how I love TUG's "ignore" function...


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## Tia (May 25, 2012)

http://www.nbc11news.com/home/headlines/Elementary_school_lunch_prices_increase_153922255.html

"The new mandate states that the kids have to take 50% of the tray has to be fresh fruits and vegetables there will be at least a half cup of fresh green tossed salad, other vegetables, along with a fresh fruit,” D51 nutrition services director Dan Sharp said.


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## csxjohn (May 25, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Shh! I've got to pretend i didn't read it! It makes too much sense, i can't think of a way i can even pretend to disagree with most of it!
> 
> Especially this part, that sums it up well:
> 
> ...



He did not disappoint!


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## Tia (May 25, 2012)

http://news.yahoo.com/obese-uk-woman-cut-house-173721642.html 
Sadly we are not alone in this problem


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## pwrshift (May 25, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> i'm leaving for Hershey in just a couple hours, sure its not Hawaii or the Carribean or even Mexico....But heck, every vacation is a great vacation!



Careful in Hershey...I believe they make chocolate there and it's as addictive as smoking.


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## CarolF (May 25, 2012)

*Also consider "Waist to Hip" and "Waist to Height" Ratios*

BMI measurement, which uses body mass and height, is an indirect measure of body fat and is certainly useful, however "Waist to Hip Ratio" assesses abdominal fat mass and "Central Obesity".  Body fat is often redistributed to the abdominal region during the ageing process and accumulation of fat in that area is considered particularly dangerous because of its location near vital organs and their blood supply.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waist-hip_ratio

Waist to Height ratio is currently being heavily promoted as a good measure to assess obesity.  Basically, your waist needs to be less than half your height.  

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/245352.php


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## CarolF (May 25, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Genetics plays a HUGE roll in your long term health, weight is a small player, ALMOST Trivial compared to family history
> 
> My BMI is very slightly over 30(30.2) but i'll sit next to any of the 'healthy' people on here in a doctors office any day and compare numbers



Whilst you may feel confident about your family and your own ability to remain healthy into old age, your child/children inherit from their mother and her family too.    

The idea that today's children may have shorter life expectancies than their parents has been discussed for years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/17/health/17obese.html


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## pjrose (May 25, 2012)

Ride, you're gonna be in Hershey?  Watch out, you can SMELL the chocolate as you drive through town!


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## Ridewithme38 (May 25, 2012)

pjrose said:


> Ride, you're gonna be in Hershey?  Watch out, you can SMELL the chocolate as you drive through town!



Unfortunately, one of my (very few) poor genetic traits is bad teeth...I've learned to avoid chocolate to keep the pain away...although, until recently i drank about 2ltrs of soda a day


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## Rose Pink (May 26, 2012)

We've mentioned how cheap junk foods cost compared to more nutritious foods.  Here is an article that states otherwise: http://news.yahoo.com/healthy-eating-cost-less-study-finds-180335611.html

I remember reading something more than a decade ago about grocery costs of a healthy meal plan vs one that is not.  The researchers stated that at first it may cost more to start buying fruits, vegetables, etc but as the consumer became more practiced they could actually save money.  Savings come by not buying soft drinks, chips, etc and by learning to buy wholesome foods in season and when on sale.

This is only based on the cost of food.  It does not take into consideration the even greater cost savings of being healthy--ie, less cost for diabetes, etc.


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## Rose Pink (May 26, 2012)

pjrose said:


> Ride, you're gonna be in Hershey?  Watch out, you can SMELL the chocolate as you drive through town!


We went to Hershey Park about 18 years ago.  We could smell the chocolate.  It smelled like brownies.  We all got cravings for brownies but could not find them anywhere in the park.  It was so frustrating!  They had all kinds of chocolate candy bars but no brownies.


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## csxjohn (May 26, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Unfortunately, one of my (very few) poor genetic traits is bad teeth...I've learned to avoid chocolate to keep the pain away...although, until recently i drank about 2ltrs of soda a day



I submit that it isn't a genetic flaw that your teeth are bad.  I'm pretty sure that if you had not drunk 2 liters of soda a day, and all the candy and what not, your teeth would be healthy today.

I think you just showed that eating habits contribute to bad health no matter the genetic make up of your body.

Now stay away from the computer and enjoy that vaca!


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## Zac495 (May 26, 2012)

Mel said:


> Some schools are finally trying to do something about it, but it will take time to see an impact.



My son lost 15 pounds in a month when he stopped eating the school lunches.


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## BevL (May 26, 2012)

CarolF said:


> BMI measurement, which uses body mass and height, is an indirect measure of body fat and is certainly useful, however "Waist to Hip Ratio" assesses abdominal fat mass and "Central Obesity".  Body fat is often redistributed to the abdominal region during the ageing process and accumulation of fat in that area is considered particularly dangerous because of its location near vital organs and their blood supply.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waist-hip_ratio
> 
> ...




This is where genetics comes in, IMHO.  I'm an apple shaped person, always have been, always will be.  Waist to Hip and Waist to Height are just over the "good" marks but I am never going to be low or below what they should be.  

All I can do with that one is keep walking and try some other exercise strategies to keep the weight off the middle.


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## Tia (May 26, 2012)

csxjohn said:


> ........
> 
> I think you just showed that eating habits contribute to bad health no matter the genetic make up of your body.
> 
> .......



After crowning teeth/extractions on  young children the dentist instructs parents -> oral hygiene  x3/day


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## Jaybee (May 26, 2012)

Hooray for you!  Good job!  I truly believe that proper nutrition can heal almost anything that ails us.  I wish I'd been aware of why the Standard American Diet spells S.A.D. a long time ago. I'd have raised my kids better, and we'd all have been smarter. 

As far as the opinion voiced by ...Zinger? that doctors shouldn't have to deal with a "specialty" like nutrition, what is more basic to our health than our diet?  So many doctors have become "drug pushers", and that's the first answer to every problem.  That and "Age-Related", another good way to avoid looking for a reason.

It seems that most doctors (Whatever happened to GP's?) serve the function of Triage. They keep track of lab results, and decide what specialist/s you need to see. Now, they're all "Internists", but don't seem to know a whole lot about what's inside us, or should be. Ohboy!  Off my soapbox.   




csaohio said:


> My DH was diagnosed with CKD in 2005.  The nephrologist suggested a regimen which started with steroids, stage 2 chemo, dialysis and a kidney transplant.  Not having health insurance, we decided to go with dietary changes and an herbal and supplement regimen.  7 years later my husband still has CKD but it he has lost 90 lbs.  brought himself out of a pre-diabetic condition and is able to manage his health through a diet and supplements.  We may not be able to heal the kidneys 100% but by supporting his body with healthy nutrition our goal is to keep him off of dialysis and AWAY from steroids, etc.


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## pgnewarkboy (May 26, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> We've mentioned how cheap junk foods cost compared to more nutritious foods.  Here is an article that states otherwise: http://news.yahoo.com/healthy-eating-cost-less-study-finds-180335611.html
> 
> I remember reading something more than a decade ago about grocery costs of a healthy meal plan vs one that is not.  The researchers stated that at first it may cost more to start buying fruits, vegetables, etc but as the consumer became more practiced they could actually save money.  Savings come by not buying soft drinks, chips, etc and by learning to buy wholesome foods in season and when on sale.
> 
> This is only based on the cost of food.  It does not take into consideration the even greater cost savings of being healthy--ie, less cost for diabetes, etc.




The HBO documentary states that there is much greater profit margin on junk food.  Consequently, the industry and the food markets make more money when they sell fatty, sugared, highly processed foods.  That is why these foods are marketed to the public.  That is why they are marketed to children - profit margin.  Marketing is a highly persuasive science.  It will take alot to combat all the ads and other marketing for unhealthy eating. McDonalds serves some kids meals with smaller amounts of french fries and milk.  Big deal.  French fries are bad for your health.  Chicken McNUggets are fatty also. McDonalds serves unhealthy fried burgers, unhealthy milkshakes, and other unhealthy meals. Yet they still want to look like they are trying to provide a healthier menu.   It is all marketing.  They want parents to buy something for the kids that seems healthier but really isn't.  Eating a cheeseburger and apple slices isn't going to do you much good.  Some say it is a start to offer apple slices.  I think it is simply deception.


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## CarolF (Jul 12, 2012)

*Not America but ...*

Just thought I'd share this article that made our news today.  Obese children are being taken from their parents' care.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-12/obese-kids-taken-from-parents-care/4125788


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## theo (Jul 12, 2012)

*The truth hurts...*



pgnewarkboy said:


> The HBO documentary states that there is much greater profit margin on junk food.  Consequently, the industry and the food markets make more money when they sell fatty, sugared, highly processed foods. <snip>



More specifically, it was overtly stated that the proft margin on most processed foods is about 90%, whereas the profit magin on fresh produce is, by comparison, generally about 10%.  
Guess which one the big processed food "manufacturers" prefer that we buy and eat... 

I enjoyed the four-part "Weight of the Nation" documentary, although it was certainly a bit depressing to see so very clearly presented in factual, objective, evidentiary fashion that the greatest nation on Earth is also the fattest, most unfit and obese --- yet apparently "working quite hard" at becoming even worse still...


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