# Is 2019 the 'Year of the Timeshare'? [Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt in the DC speculation]



## kds4

So, just returned from an enjoyable trip (prefer to not say where) and what I would consider to be the most beneficial 'owner update' I have been to. Very interesting discussion about the ILG acquisition and what changes are coming (or not coming) as a result. We talked about some important dates to remember, such as 2015 and October, 2019 (as examples). Told to expect a couple of significant emails this fall about DC changes coming that many owners have been wanting (as a result of the ILG acquisition). I realize that some folks may take the position that "if their lips were moving, don't believe it". That has often been my perspective as well during past presentations. However, I didn't just hear it, as it would take more than that to get me to buy more points (which I did). Stay tuned. This is about to get really interesting for MVCI owners.


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## pchung6

My perspective is I hope they will keep DC and VSN separated. If they really want to open and let DC points owners to reserve Westin/Sheraton, I hope it is at 6 months.  I’m very happy with all of my VSN ownerships, and there is no incentive to me to trade Westin to any Marriott. So I want the exclusive reservation window for VSN SOs owners until 6 months.

This information above will lead me to attend the next owner update and I will express my displeasure if Marriott tries to inflow DC points to compete with already very scarce Westin/Sheraton reservation slots.


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## JIMinNC

pchung6 said:


> My perspective is I hope they will keep DC and VSN separated. If they really want to open and let DC points owners to reserve Westin/Sheraton, I hope it is at 6 months.  I’m very happy with all of my VSN ownerships, and there is no incentive to me to trade Westin to any Marriott. So I want the exclusive reservation window for VSN SOs owners until 6 months.
> 
> This information above will lead me to attend the next owner update and I will express my displeasure if Marriott tries to inflow DC points to compete with already very scarce Westin/Sheraton reservation slots.



I would be surprised if they ever just opened up Westin/Sheraton to Marriott and vice versa. If they do something, I think it will likely be based on individual Vistana owners having to enroll their week in the DC, so will not be a blanket reciprocity. The only VSE intervals MVC owners would compete for are those that are enrolled.


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## pchung6

JIMinNC said:


> I would be surprised if they ever just opened up Westin?Sheraton to Marriott and vice versa. If they do something, I think it will likely be based on individual Vistana owners having to enroll their week in the DC, so will not be a blanket reciprocity. The only VSE intervals MVC owners would compete for are those that are enrolled.



That sounds much better. I am both VSN and Marriott owner, but I am totally fine with VSN reservation system. If individual VSN owner wants to enroll to MVC DC, that’s fine and it’s their right/choice. I just don’t want current VSN SOs to be affected, I’m good with current VSN and will not want to be substituted by anything from MVC DC, nothing. I’m really good and satisfied with just Westin/Sheraton in VSN now, Marriott can have their DC system separated and have different game whatever they want. Just leave us VSN owners alone, we don’t need MVC seriously and vice versa.


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## kds4

I wouldn't be surprised if unsold Starwood, Hyatt, or Westin inventory isn't opened up to the DC (after all, it was Marriott that bought them, not the other way around). Owners in the other systems could be required to make a minimum purchase from Marriott before being allowed to 'play' in the DC pool (regardless of what they own in their home system). That may seem unfairly tilted in favor of Marriott/DC, but to the victor (buyer) go the (not legally prohibited) spoils.


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## pchung6

kds4 said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if unsold Starwood, Hyatt, or Westin inventory isn't opened up to the DC (after all, it was Marriott that bought them, not the other way around). Owners in the other systems could be required to make a minimum purchase from Marriott before being allowed to 'play' in the DC pool (regardless of what they own in their home system). That may seem unfairly tilted in favor of Marriott/DC, but to the victor (buyer) go the (not legally prohibited) spoils.



I totally agree. Marriott can take all unsold weeks and put into DC. Just leave current VSN alone with all weeks were sold. I will definitely attend the next owner update and express my complaint. By the way, the victor should be VAC shareholders. If you mean DC owners is the victor at VSN owner’s expense, the management is not maximizing shareholder’s value, because probably half side of their customers are not happy. I would seriously doubt MVC would spend $3B to piss off these Vistana customers to just benefit MVC’s side of customers.


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## kds4

pchung6 said:


> I totally agree. Marriott can take all unsold weeks and put into DC. Just leave current VSN alone with all weeks were sold. I will definitely attend the next owner update and express my complaint. By the way, the victor should be VAC shareholders. If you mean DC owners is the victor at VSN owner’s expense, the management is not maximizing shareholder’s value, because probably half side of their customers are not happy.



I only meant allowing DC owners into these other programs inventory with no further cost while requiring owners of these other programs to purchase DC points (perhaps 4,000 minimum) to be able to utilize the value of their home program ownership in the Marriott pool.


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## dougp26364

You almost had me. I almost got sucked into the speculation..... again. 

The last update I was told June or July when they’ll release combined inventory. I didn’t ask the year, maybe it’s next year?

I am interested, even anxious, to see the merger results. I’m hoping for reasonable access to Sedona and maybe Key West. Increased options in Maui would be great but I’m happy with the access we have currently. Past that I doubt the merger will have such a strong effect on us that it will change much in our vacation patterns.


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## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> My perspective is I hope they will keep DC and VSN separated. If they really want to open and let DC points owners to reserve Westin/Sheraton, I hope it is at 6 months.  I’m very happy with all of my VSN ownerships, and there is no incentive to me to trade Westin to any Marriott. So I want the exclusive reservation window for VSN SOs owners until 6 months.
> 
> This information above will lead me to attend the next owner update and I will express my displeasure if Marriott tries to inflow DC points to compete with already very scarce Westin/Sheraton reservation slots.


I hope it’s not 6 months. Many times nothing opens even at 6 months then availability opens at 60 days due to cancellation restrictions. I say keep them separate and use II as the priority exchange. Allow us to declare if we want to deposit into a general fund of availability for all resorts in II or Deposit in a MVC/VSN exchange fund. Let the availibitly come from there


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## CPNY

kds4 said:


> I only meant allowing DC owners into these other programs inventory with no further cost while requiring owners of these other programs to purchase DC points (perhaps 4,000 minimum) to be able to utilize the value of their home program ownership in the Marriott pool.


Uhh no lol. That’s the fastest way to piss off a lot of people. A true bad PR move. Trust me, if you want into other properties you’ll have to pay as well. Nothing is free. You’re talking about people that sell timeshares for tens of thousands of dollars. They aren’t exactly the most honorable people here.


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## pchung6

kds4 said:


> I only meant allowing DC owners into these other programs inventory with no further cost while requiring owners of these other programs to purchase DC points (perhaps 4,000 minimum) to be able to utilize the value of their home program ownership in the Marriott pool.



Looks like your salesman just told you this and asked you to buy more DC points?  You wanna bet it won't be free for DC owners to reserve to VSN?


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## JIMinNC

In the end, it's all speculation until something formal is announced. The only thing that has been said officially that we can bank on is what the Marriott Vacations Worldwide CEO, Stephen Weisz, said in their last earnings conference call for investors:

"Looking ahead to 2020, we have begun focusing on product enhancements for the various brands. Specifically, we are working hard to develop an integrated product form that can be leveraged across the Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton brands enhancing the overall value proposition for our owners and customers. It will take time to finalize and roll out this new product form. However, we are very excited about the potential it will provide and we look forward to updating you in the future as this work evolves.”

I don't think they have announced the exact date of their second quarter earnings call, but it should be late July or early August. Maybe more info then; maybe not.


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## SmithOp

pchung6 said:


> Looks like your salesman just told you this and asked you to buy more DC points?  You wanna bet it won't be free for DC owners to reserve to VSN?



I thought the same thing when I read the OP, just a bunch of vague BS to make a sale.  No details provided whatsoever.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Sapper

kds4 said:


> ... "if their lips were moving, don't believe it". That has often been my perspective as well during past presentations. However, I didn't just hear it, as it would take more than that to get me to buy more points (*which I did*). ....



Full stop. You bought points from the developer. 

In anything that you signed, anywhere, was it written that by purchasing these points you would have full access to all of the other brands with out purchasing additional points or paying additional fees, or jumping through any other hoops?

No, it does not have some similar wording to that effect?  Are you still with in your recision period?  Yes?  Suggest you find that recision document, follow the instructions, send it in return receipt. Then come back and we can have all the speculative debate in the world. I like the speculative debate here, it can run for months, you don’t have months on the recision period. Please think about the recision instrument available to you right now.


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## CalGalTraveler

@kds4 can you please elaborate on what you learned? For example, what is the significance of 2015? You created a provacative title with vague comments. Need meat, otherwise this thread adds nothing new.


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## pchung6

I didn’t realize the OP bought additional DC points. Please go rescind now, then come back and we can keep talking about it. Your current deal will always be there or better when Marriott announces the integration plan. Marriott paid a couple billions for VSN, it’s not going to be free...


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## Dean

CPNY said:


> Uhh no lol. That’s the fastest way to piss off a lot of people. A true bad PR move. Trust me, if you want into other properties you’ll have to pay as well. Nothing is free. You’re talking about people that sell timeshares for tens of thousands of dollars. They aren’t exactly the most honorable people here.


I think some type of integration is likely at some point and it might be the DC option, for a fee in most cases.  Maybe buy points to just pay an enrollment fee like 2010.  If enrolled, the only inventory members would have access to would be any inventory brought into the trust and any inventory where the owners chose to take DC points.  It would not be the entire system if it were the DC system.  Or it could be some type of crossover where each side gets access at a time later than others.  We'll see, but I agree I would not have bought based on the assurances that this would happen.  And I am 100% certain there were no guarantees it would in writing and almost certainly the included legal paperwork said that verbal representations where not applicable and the that there were no guarantees of future resorts.


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## kds4

Sapper said:


> Full stop. You bought points from the developer.
> 
> In anything that you signed, anywhere, was it written that by purchasing these points you would have full access to all of the other brands with out purchasing additional points or paying additional fees, or jumping through any other hoops?
> 
> No, it does not have some similar wording to that effect?  Are you still with in your recision period?  Yes?  Suggest you find that recision document, follow the instructions, send it in return receipt. Then come back and we can have all the speculative debate in the world. I like the speculative debate here, it can run for months, you don’t have months on the recision period. Please think about the recision instrument available to you right now.



I only heard that free cross-program access is coming. Yes, we bought more points, but that wasn't why (since hearing wouldn't have met my threshold to act).


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## kds4

CalGalTraveler said:


> @kds4 can you please elaborate on what you learned? For example, what is the significance of 2015? You created a provacative title with vague comments. Need meat, otherwise this thread adds nothing new.



What if new restrictions were coming to the resale market that will affect use/access to benefits for resale points purchased on or after some date (maybe in 2015) despite paying the enrollment fee? What if purchase discounts are going away? What if minimum purchase requirements are going up significantly? What if an additional ownership level is coming with benefits currently not heard of? What if MVCI is implementing a 'buy-back' program for points? What if the Toronto Raptors win the NBA title? I am confident that one or more of these things have/are coming to pass in 2019.


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## kds4

SmithOp said:


> I thought the same thing when I read the OP, just a bunch of vague BS to make a sale.  No details provided whatsoever.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


.

I can understand your perspective. That has been me for quite a while. I always said I would never buy any more points (especially from the developer), yet I did. It takes more than hearing something to convince me to part with my money. Some things have to be seen to be believed. While my reasons for buying may or may not be the same as someone else's, I bought more points because I saw what I needed to see. Some knowledgeable person may want to start prowling around the applicable state regulatory agencies websites to keep an eye out for interesting recent/upcoming filings.


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## CPNY

kds4 said:


> .
> 
> I can understand your perspective. That has been me for quite a while. I always said I would never buy any more points (especially from the developer), yet I did. It takes more than hearing something to convince me to part with my money. Some things have to be seen to be believed. While my reasons for buying may or may not be the same as someone else's, I bought more points because I saw what I needed to see. Some knowledgeable person may want to start prowling around the applicable state regulatory agencies websites to keep an eye out for interesting recent/upcoming filings.


Until something is concrete I wouldn’t buy from the developer. Personally, I’m happy with the Vistana choices. I’ll exchange in II for other resorts as I’m not tied into school breaks for travel.


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## dougp26364

kds4 said:


> .
> 
> I can understand your perspective. That has been me for quite a while. I always said I would never buy any more points (especially from the developer), yet I did. It takes more than hearing something to convince me to part with my money. Some things have to be seen to be believed. While my reasons for buying may or may not be the same as someone else's, I bought more points because I saw what I needed to see. Some knowledgeable person may want to start prowling around the applicable state regulatory agencies websites to keep an eye out for interesting recent/upcoming filings.



We’re like you. After a few owners updates, a salesman finally listened to what we were saying and produced something that both fit our needs and budget, so we did something I never thought we’d do, purchase points from the developer. If not for the additional resale week (bundle package) at a resort we like and a destination we love at a price we considered reasonable with full MVC access and without restrictions, we would never have moved. 

Any residual benefit we might enjoy because of this purchase with the ILG merger or the fact we moved up a benefit level is simply extra gravy, although it would be nice if that’s the case.


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## kds4

dougp26364 said:


> We’re like you. After a few owners updates, a salesman finally listened to what we were saying and produced something that both fit our needs and budget, so we did something I never thought we’d do, purchase points from the developer. If not for the additional resale week (bundle package) at a resort we like and a destination we love at a price we considered reasonable with full MVC access and without restrictions, we would never have moved.
> 
> Any residual benefit we might enjoy because of this purchase with the ILG merger or the fact we moved up a benefit level is simply extra gravy, although it would be nice if that’s the case.



Marriott has grandfathered in the past as new levels were created. Hopefully that practice will continue.


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## kds4

CPNY said:


> Until something is concrete I wouldn’t buy from the developer. Personally, I’m happy with the Vistana choices. I’ll exchange in II for other resorts as I’m not tied into school breaks for travel.



Agreed. That's why just hearing about it was not enough for us to biuy.


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## dneveu

We


kds4 said:


> Marriott has grandfathered in the past as new levels were created. Hopefully that practice will continue.



We had a good presentation with a top salesman who seemed respectable a few months ago.  Very interesting discussion.   Seems new program rules are likely coming.  Got the sense a few more levels were coming, possibly 2 more with new benefits not in place today.   We got the sense maybe only chairman would be upgraded to the top level and no others, as all other levels would not change. 

While not discussed,  I could see MVC moving to new point purchase requirements and at the same time implementing a buyback program.  It    would make sense if they were adding more levels with higher point tiers.


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## Sapper

kds4 said:


> I only heard that free cross-program access is coming. Yes, we bought more points, but that wasn't why (since hearing wouldn't have met my threshold to act).





kds4 said:


> I can understand your perspective. That has been me for quite a while. I always said I would never buy any more points (especially from the developer), yet I did. It takes more than hearing something to convince me to part with my money. Some things have to be seen to be believed. While my reasons for buying may or may not be the same as someone else's, I bought more points because I saw what I needed to see. Some knowledgeable person may want to start prowling around the applicable state regulatory agencies websites to keep an eye out for interesting recent/upcoming filings.



Ok, so you purchased more points for a different reason. So, let’s discuss a little. 

What was it that you saw (hopefully you got it in writing) that made you want to buy more points?  What was so important that pushed an experienced tugger to buy from the developer?

In your initial post you stated there are two important dates. 2015 and OCT 2019. What is the importance of these dates?


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## csalter2

Boy, the speculation about what is going to happen with the merger is probably the biggest since we all wondered about what was coming before the Destinations Program was coming. Heck, and I knew that was coming without even knowing it was  coming. I sat through a focus group on it in Irvine and all of the current stuff of the DC program and the advertising were a part of the discussion for us.  Who knew a few years later that those discussions would lead to the DC program.  It took me a while to even realize that the DC Program was what we were discussing.  I believe everyone should just relax and see what comes out of this merger. Enjoy our memberships and I can see only good things coming.  What Marriott will do for certain is make sure that there are more opportunities to separate you from your money and make you feel good about doing it.


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## TheTimeTraveler

csalter2 said:


> Boy, the speculation about what is going to happen with the merger is probably the biggest since we all wondered about what was coming before the Destinations Program was coming. Heck, and I knew that was coming without even knowing it was  coming. I sat through a focus group on it in Irvine and all of the current stuff of the DC program and the advertising were a part of the discussion for us.  Who knew a few years later that those discussions would lead to the DC program.  It took me a while to even realize that the DC Program was what we were discussing.  I believe everyone should just relax and see what comes out of this merger. Enjoy our memberships and I can see only good things coming.  What Marriott will do for certain is make sure that there are more opportunities to separate you from your money and make you feel good about doing it.





Yes, fully agree......






.


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## jme

Not sure what's coming, but the hype is definitely there.

Hopefully it'll be beneficial for all Marriott owners, including Legacy.


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## bazzap

dneveu said:


> We
> 
> 
> We had a good presentation with a top salesman who seemed respectable a few months ago.  Very interesting discussion.   Seems new program rules are likely coming.  Got the sense a few more levels were coming, possibly 2 more with new benefits not in place today.   We got the sense maybe only chairman would be upgraded to the top level and no others, as all other levels would not change.
> 
> While not discussed,  I could see MVC moving to new point purchase requirements and at the same time implementing a buyback program.  It    would make sense if they were adding more levels with higher point tiers.


As ever though, there is absolutely no way that any salesman would be party now to the plans (if indeed there are any yet) by the MVC Executive team to introduce new program rules, add new owner levels and benefits...etc
That is not to say that it couldn’t happen, but it can only be pure speculation by them at this stage and no more likely to be accurate than the speculation by some TUGers here in this forum.


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## turkel

SmithOp said:


> I thought the same thing when I read the OP, just a bunch of vague BS to make a sale.  No details provided whatsoever.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


m

What he said. 

I will add that for me personally allowing Vistana owners any access to MVC or the other way around would not be acceptable. As a legacy owner I have no need of more owners cutting the line in front of me. Period.


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## bogey21

turkel said:


> I will add that for me personally allowing Vistana owners any access to MVC or the other way around would not be acceptable. As a legacy owner I have no need of more owners cutting the line in front of me. Period.



If those making the decisions at Marriott decide something is in the Corporate interest, it will happen whether acceptable to you or not.  This is not only Marriott but all the Corporate entities who run these operations will do the same thing...

George


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## turkel

bogey21 said:


> If those making the decisions at Marriott decide something is in the Corporate interest, it will happen whether acceptable to you or not.  This is not only Marriott but all the Corporate entities who run these operations will do the same thing...
> 
> George



True.

Doesn’t mean my opinion will change


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## jme

turkel said:


> Post #33.....True.  Doesn’t mean my opinion will change.
> 
> and Post #31...I will add that for me personally allowing Vistana owners any access to MVC or the other way around would not be acceptable. As a legacy owner I have no need of more owners cutting the line in front of me. Period.



I'm with you 100% regarding reciprocity as stated in your post #31 above.
I hope there is no harm done to Legacy owners, which I believe happens to be the largest segment of all Marriott owners.


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## pchung6

turkel said:


> m
> 
> What he said.
> 
> I will add that for me personally allowing Vistana owners any access to MVC or the other way around would not be acceptable. As a legacy owner I have no need of more owners cutting the line in front of me. Period.





jme said:


> I'm with you 100% regarding reciprocity as stated in your post #31 above.
> I hope there is no harm done to Legacy owners, which I believe happens to be the largest segment of all Marriott owners.



I agree with you all.  Letting VSN owners to access MVC is not acceptable or the other way MVC to VSN.  Each platform has enough people competing with very few slots.  I would be ok if they create a cross platform exchange (isn't II already doing this?), so DC points can exchange to SOs or vice versa.  Of course, owners will have to pay an upfront fee to enter this cross platform exchange.  This way, they don't have to upset any VSN/MVC owners and nothing will change.


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## kds4

CPNY said:


> Uhh no lol. That’s the fastest way to piss off a lot of people. A true bad PR move. Trust me, if you want into other properties you’ll have to pay as well. Nothing is free. You’re talking about people that sell timeshares for tens of thousands of dollars. They aren’t exactly the most honorable people here.



I understand why folks in these other programs would not like it, but MVCI's ultimate responsibility is to its shareholders. I believe they will come up with a way to 'value' in the DC levels of ownership what these other people's ownerships in these other systems are worth and place them accordingly (from the bottom level through Chairman's or higher). I believe they will still be able to exchange within their own systems as they always have. However, to play in the DC pool, I expect MVCI will require them to 'buy-in' at some minimal level of points (and it may be a few thousand points). People in these other systems won't like having to 'pay to play'. However, as said before, MVCI bought their companies. As long as they can continue to do what they have always done, their ownership has not been lessened. To play in the DC system represents an enhancement to their ownership that MVCI can rightly (in a purely business sense) charge them to get. If it was the other way around, their companies could certainly have done the same thing to MVCI owners (as part of their responsibility to their own shareholders). JMHO, as I only 'heard' this.


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## kds4

Sapper said:


> Full stop. You bought points from the developer.
> 
> In anything that you signed, anywhere, was it written that by purchasing these points you would have full access to all of the other brands with out purchasing additional points or paying additional fees, or jumping through any other hoops?
> 
> No, it does not have some similar wording to that effect?  Are you still with in your recision period?  Yes?  Suggest you find that recision document, follow the instructions, send it in return receipt. Then come back and we can have all the speculative debate in the world. I like the speculative debate here, it can run for months, you don’t have months on the recision period. Please think about the recision instrument available to you right now.



I have nothing in writing about the exchanging into other systems. I only heard that is coming (as reinforced by the post regarding the last investor call where a forthcoming integrated product was mentioned). While nice if/when it happens, it wasn't why we bought more points.


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## kds4

pchung6 said:


> I didn’t realize the OP bought additional DC points. Please go rescind now, then come back and we can keep talking about it. Your current deal will always be there or better when Marriott announces the integration plan. Marriott paid a couple billions for VSN, it’s not going to be free...



I appreciate the concern, but this isn't our first timeshare rodeo. The only reason we have ever bought developer points is to 'enroll' our weeks/points. With our previous points purchases, we got our weeks enrolled. With this last purchase, we got all of our weeks and points 'enrolled' for what is coming next. Anyone going to an owner's update in the next 90 days needs to be asking about what is coming next.


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## CPNY

kds4 said:


> I appreciate the concern, but this isn't our first timeshare rodeo. The only reason we have ever bought developer points is to 'enroll' our weeks/points. With our previous points purchases, we got our weeks enrolled. With this last purchase, we got all of our weeks and points 'enrolled' for what is coming next. Anyone going to an owner's update in the next 90 days needs to be asking about what is coming next.


They won’t be telling you what’s coming next if anything is even coming next. As I said before. Until something comes it comes. MVG owns MVC and VSE correct? I highly doubt they will just allow MVC owners to book into existing Vistana resorts “free of charge”.  Tbh as a Vistana owner I’m not happy about MVG buying us up. I don’t like MVG or MVC. I don’t think they ever did the right thing by their customers. They have only ever made things difficult. Not to mention the MVC resorts aren’t where I want to be, With the exception of Aruba. I’d much rather be at the Westin properties in Mexico, CO and Hawaii. I’ve stayed at the MVC in AZ and I wasn’t too impressed. They can charge me more to enroll my resale units into their program but I’d pass anyway. Here is food for thought though, at an owners update two years ago I was told “we were bought by Marriott , now you have access to all Marriott properties” lines of crapola is their MO. Lol


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## kds4

bazzap said:


> As ever though, there is absolutely no way that any salesman would be party now to the plans (if indeed there are any yet) by the MVC Executive team to introduce new program rules, add new owner levels and benefits...etc
> That is not to say that it couldn’t happen, but it can only be pure speculation by them at this stage and no more likely to be accurate than the speculation by some TUGers here in this forum.



New programs don't just roll-out over night. There are required regulatory filings (both before and after any changes). Also, plans, procedures, and even forms that will be given to purchasing owners post roll-out are just some examples of things that would be created well in advance.


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## bazzap

There really can be no possibility of an Owner Update in the near future providing tangible detail on any significant changes coming next.
As Stephen Weisz, MVW CEO said at an Investor Relations event just a few weeks ago
“Looking ahead to 2020, we have begun focusing on product enhancements for the various brands. Specifically, we are working hard to develop an integrated product form that can be leveraged across the Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton brands, enhancing the overall value proposition for our owners and customers. It will take time to finalize and roll out this new product form; however, we are very excited about the potential it will provide and we look forward to updating you in the future as this work evolves.”


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## kds4

CPNY said:


> They won’t be telling you what’s coming next if anything is even coming next. As I said before. Until something comes it comes. MVG owns MVC and VSE correct? I highly doubt they will just allow MVC owners to book into existing Vistana resorts “free of charge”.  Tbh as a Vistana owner I’m not happy about MVG buying us up. I don’t like MVG or MVC. I don’t think they ever did the right thing by their customers. They have only ever made things difficult. Not to mention the MVC resorts aren’t where I want to be, With the exception of Aruba. I’d much rather be at the Westin properties in Mexico, CO and Hawaii. I’ve stayed at the MVC in AZ and I wasn’t too impressed. They can charge me more to enroll my resale units into their program but I’d pass anyway. Here is food for thought though, at an owners update two years ago I was told “we were bought by Marriott , now you have access to all Marriott properties” lines of crapola is their MO. Lol



Everything will work itself out eventually. However, I wouldn't recommend purchasing any more resale points (at least until after these program changes formally roll out this fall).


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## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> I would be surprised if they ever just opened up Westin/Sheraton to Marriott and vice versa. If they do something, I think it will likely be based on individual Vistana owners having to enroll their week in the DC, so will not be a blanket reciprocity. The only VSE intervals MVC owners would compete for are those that are enrolled.


I simply don't see them allowing current enrolled DC and trust owners having an in to the system for free. I would expect any access to Vistana properties for Marriott owners to require some upgrading of their current ownership. Marriott ownership base is much larger and to try to make considerable income off the much smaller Vistana base probably won't fly to help pay for the big money they spent on the acquisition.


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## kds4

bazzap said:


> There really can be no possibility of an Owner Update in the near future providing tangible detail on any significant changes coming next.
> As Stephen Weisz, MVW CEO said at an Investor Relations event just a few weeks ago
> “Looking ahead to 2020, we have begun focusing on product enhancements for the various brands. Specifically, we are working hard to develop an integrated product form that can be leveraged across the Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton brands, enhancing the overall value proposition for our owners and customers. It will take time to finalize and roll out this new product form; however, we are very excited about the potential it will provide and we look forward to updating you in the future as this work evolves.”



Nothing I heard or saw during my meeting contradicts that. Product enhancements for DC owners are coming. An integrated product is coming.


----------



## CPNY

kds4 said:


> Everything will work itself out eventually. However, I wouldn't recommend purchasing any more resale points (at least until after these program changes formally roll out this fall).


I’d rather have resale units now to use in Vistana. I don’t care much for MVC properties. But I’m wondering, did you MVC sales person tell you “inside” information, and you better buy in now before something big comes and prices sky rocket? Cause that’s what mr Vistana man eluded to me when trying to sell me flex points. It’s not a smart move from a company stand point to be selling current deeds in Vistana only to tell those people two months later they got screwed and need to pay more. 

As far as buying more resale, buying mandatory deeds will be just fine as I only want to go to Vistana properties anyway. If I want Aruba ocean club with MVC I’ll deposit in interval and exchange. No kids so I’m flexible on travel dates


----------



## pchung6

kds4 said:


> Nothing I heard or saw during my meeting contradicts that. Product enhancements for DC owners are coming. An integrated product is coming.



Can you please let us know what you saw and heard in your meeting? You left some very provocative comments and did not have any concrete story to back it up. I understand you bought some points and might still in the denying mode. I’m very interested to know what you heard in the meeting.


----------



## bazzap

kds4 said:


> Nothing I heard or saw during my meeting contradicts that. Product enhancements for DC owners are coming. An integrated product is coming.


I am sure they will, and that is what Stephen Weisz said, but noone is going to find out anything about that from an Owner update in the next 90 days or any time this year and probably not until well into next year at the very earliest.


----------



## dioxide45

kds4 said:


> So, just returned from an enjoyable trip (prefer to not say where) and what I would consider to be the most beneficial 'owner update' I have been to. Very interesting discussion about the ILG acquisition and what changes are coming (or not coming) as a result. We talked about some important dates to remember, such as 2015 and October, 2019 (as examples). Told to expect a couple of significant emails this fall about DC changes coming that many owners have been wanting (as a result of the ILG acquisition). I realize that some folks may take the position that "if their lips were moving, don't believe it". That has often been my perspective as well during past presentations. *However, I didn't just hear it, *as it would take more than that to get me to buy more points (which I did). Stay tuned. This is about to get really interesting for MVCI owners.


So it seems you saw something in writing but are failing to provide details?


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> Tbh as a Vistana owner I’m not happy about MVG buying us up. I don’t like MVG or MVC. I don’t think they ever did the right thing by their customers. They have only ever made things difficult. Not to mention the MVC resorts aren’t where I want to be, With the exception of Aruba. I’d much rather be at the Westin properties in Mexico, CO and Hawaii. I’ve stayed at the MVC in AZ and I wasn’t too impressed. They can charge me more to enroll my resale units into their program but I’d pass anyway. Here is food for thought though, at an owners update two years ago I was told “we were bought by Marriott , now you have access to all Marriott properties” lines of crapola is their MO. Lol



That’s exactly how I feel. I own both Vistana and Marriott, but I would never want to trade any of my Vistana with Marriott. I just stay at Westin, any Westin is better. I do like Ko Olina and that’s it, I just exchange to it via II or use my ownership. In my next meeting, if sales tries to say we are bought by MVC so you have to buy more, we will have very serious talk and I might just walk out.


----------



## dioxide45

bazzap said:


> I am sure they will, and that is what Stephen Weisz said, but noone is going to find out anything about that from an Owner update in the next 90 days or any time this year and probably not until well into next year at the very earliest.


I see them lining up any enhancement with the 10 year anniversary of the DC program which would happen in June 2020.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> That’s exactly how I feel. I own both Vistana and Marriott, but I would never want to trade any of my Vistana with Marriott. I just stay at Westin, any Westin is better. I do like Ko Olina and that’s it, I just exchange to it via II or use my ownership. In my next meeting, if sales tries to say we are bought by MVC so you have to buy more, we will have very serious talk and I might just walk out.


I wouldn’t pay a developer fee to cross book anything in one major program. I actually am in the process of giving away my developer purchased unit. I’m sure they will disqualify resale purchases unless you re enroll them with another purchase lol. NOPE


----------



## jme

bazzap said:


> There really can be no possibility of an Owner Update in the near future providing tangible detail on any significant changes coming next.
> As Stephen Weisz, MVW CEO said at an Investor Relations event just a few weeks ago
> “Looking ahead to 2020, we have begun focusing on product enhancements for the various brands. Specifically, we are working hard to develop an integrated product form that can be leveraged across the Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton brands, enhancing the overall value proposition for our owners and customers. It will take time to finalize and roll out this new product form; however, we are very excited about the potential it will provide and we look forward to updating you in the future as this work evolves.”



Hmmmm....
Sounds very much like they're now developing, then soon selling, the new "integrated product" in the form of Monopoly Money,
which will not only be cute and colorful, but possess the ability to "buy" increments of time at any & all properties across the brands.
What a cool concept!


----------



## kds4

pchung6 said:


> Can you please let us know what you saw and heard in your meeting? You left some very provocative comments and did not have any concrete story to back it up. I understand you bought some points and might still in the denying mode. I’m very interested to know what you heard in the meeting.



I read owner documents that will be provided in the near future to anyone purchasing points that made us decide to purchase points immediately. I had to ask to see these documents, and not just rely on hearing about it. I don't spend money based on what I hear. Should I have been able to read what I reviewed, maybe not (yet). However, I made it clear that verbal representations wouldn't get me to purchase anything. So, my 'bluff' was called, and I'm glad it was. I have said plenty already regarding what is coming. However, I don't want to get this person in trouble, as I know Marriott monitors TUG. I didn't see any 'corporate' inside information. I only read owner documents that will be issued when these program changes are rolled out in the near future. I chose to believe my own 'lyin eyes'.

In short, I think most Marriott timeshare owners will be very happy with these enhancements, and I think many enrolled owners and pure points owners will seriously consider buying more points from the developer as a result. YMMV.


----------



## bazzap

dioxide45 said:


> I see them lining up any enhancement with the 10 year anniversary of the DC program which would happen in June 2020.


That would seem like a good target timeframe.
Let’s hope it will be well worth looking forward to.


----------



## pchung6

kds4 said:


> In short, I think most Marriott timeshare owners will be very happy with these enhancements, and I think many enrolled owners and pure points owners will seriously consider buying more points from the developer as a result. YMMV.



Ok, you still haven’t said why MVC owners will be happy and it is at VSN owners’ expense as it sounded like. Can you please tell us what document you read? No one will be in trouble, because if it is so good, everyone will rush to buy more points.  you will get VSN for free when MVC paid few billions to just let everyone to use. You also sound like all VSN people have to toss ownership up and need to buy 4000 points to use. Don’t you feel something don’t add up?


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> Ok, you still haven’t said why MVC owners will be happy and it is at VSN owners’ expense as it sounded like. Can you please tell us what document you read? No one will be in trouble, because if it is so good, so everyone will rush to buy more points.  you will get VSN for free when MVC paid few billions to just let everyone to use. You also sound like all VSN people have to toss it away and need to buy 4000 points to use. Don’t you feel something don’t add up?


Watch all the MVC owners who are Marriott snobs and look down on Vistana as red headed step children rush to book our resorts because imo theirs are garbage lol. I don’t believe that this guy was let in on some secret document just lying around. And if that’s the case maybe we should just show MVC the type of sales tactics their sales reps are doing. Also, maybe spread the word to would be flex buyers to NOT BUY IN because Vistana owners will get the shaft. I’m good with my Vistana resorts and will look to buy resale and use in network.


----------



## CPNY

@Ken555 maybe we need to buy into MVC DC points NOW lol.


----------



## CPNY

kds4 said:


> I read owner documents that will be provided in the near future to anyone purchasing points that made us decide to purchase points immediately. I had to ask to see these documents, and not just rely on hearing about it. I don't spend money based on what I hear. Should I have been able to read what I reviewed, maybe not (yet). However, I made it clear that verbal representations wouldn't get me to purchase anything. So, my 'bluff' was called, and I'm glad it was. I have said plenty already regarding what is coming. However, I don't want to get this person in trouble, as I know Marriott monitors TUG. I didn't see any 'corporate' inside information. I only read owner documents that will be issued when these program changes are rolled out in the near future. I chose to believe my own 'lyin eyes'.
> 
> In short, I think most Marriott timeshare owners will be very happy with these enhancements, and I think many enrolled owners and pure points owners will seriously consider buying more points from the developer as a result. YMMV.


So these documents, nothing said about flex programs in Vistana? Because this is the sales tactic they gave me. If it’s so great why can’t they just tell everyone what it’s going to be?


----------



## kds4

pchung6 said:


> Ok, you still haven’t said why MVC owners will be happy and it is at VSN owners’ expense as it sounded like. Can you please tell us what document you read? No one will be in trouble, because if it is so good, everyone will rush to buy more points.  you will get VSN for free when MVC paid few billions to just let everyone to use. You also sound like all VSN people have to toss it away and need to buy 4000 points to use. Don’t you feel something don’t add up?



None of what I saw involved anything outside Marriott ownerships. T'here was no mention of the ILG acquisition or VSN owners. It was strictly related to enhancements of existing Marriott ownerships (not involving exchanges/other brands). I did not mean to imply that these enhancements are at the expense of any other owners.


----------



## kds4

CPNY said:


> So these documents, nothing said about flex programs in Vistana? Because this is the sales tactic they gave me. If it’s so great why can’t they just tell everyone what it’s going to be?



The documents had nothing to do with the ILG acquisition.


----------



## CPNY

So wh


kds4 said:


> The documents had nothing to do with the ILG acquisition.



So why do you advice against buying resale Vistana resorts? You made it sound as though Vistana owners would not be granted the new benefits that only you know about. I would assume the documents you saw would have outlined that.


----------



## kds4

CPNY said:


> @Ken555 maybe we need to buy into MVC DC points NOW lol.



I have no idea if it is what you should or should not do. I will say, if it is something you have been thinking about, the next couple of months is when I would go to an update, ask hard questions, and then ask to see the documents to back-up what they tell you.


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> @Ken555 maybe we need to buy into MVC DC points NOW lol.



Nope. This thread is nothing more than another speculative waste of time without any proof things are changing. Welcome to the TUG: Reality? show.


----------



## kds4

CPNY said:


> So wh
> 
> 
> So why do you advice against buying resale Vistana resorts? You made it sound as though Vistana owners would not be granted the new benefits that only you know about. I would assume the documents you saw would have outlined that.



I am making no recommendations regarding Vistana. My recommendation was against buying resale (Marriott) points until after these program changes occur to ensure it is still worth doing.


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> Nope. This thread is nothing more than another speculative waste of time without any proof things are changing. Welcome to the TUG: Reality? show.


I’m starting to learn lol. Maybe I should cancel the sales contract I have on my developer purchase unit I’m selling. After all without a developer purchase I’m just a poor little timeshare owner lol. Seriously, the vistana folks tried telling me to “buy now before the prices go up when we reveal biiiig news”. Hey, if I’m wrong, oh well I’ll use my star options and continue to book excellent resorts  and be very happy.


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> I’m starting to learn lol. Maybe I should cancel the sales contract I have on my developer purchase unit I’m selling. After all without a developer purchase I’m just a poor little timeshare owner lol. Seriously, the vistana folks tried telling me to “buy now before the prices go up when we reveal biiiig news”. Hey, if I’m wrong, oh well I’ll use my star options and continue to book excellent resorts  and be very happy.



Yup, you're learning. Don't believe *anything* they say. I don't care how nice the sales guy is, only believe what's in writing. These threads are just a colossal waste of time.


----------



## CPNY

kds4 said:


> I am making no recommendations regarding Vistana. My recommendation was against buying resale (Marriott) points until after these program changes occur to ensure it is still worth doing.


Ok I stand corrected. The conversation mixed between a joint program and resales somewhere along the way. MVC resale was never ideal anyway since they were already restricted. Vistana has mandatory resorts that lets you book in network. I can deal with exchange for a MVC property


----------



## pchung6

kds4 said:


> The documents had nothing to do with the ILG acquisition.



What is this secret document? We all very interested to know. Or there is no such secret document but purely made up by your salesman?


----------



## Ken555

pchung6 said:


> What is this secret document? We all very interested to know. Or there is no such secret document but purely made up by your salesman?



There is no secret document. This is all *******.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> What is this secret document? We all very interested to know. Or there is no such secret document but purely made up by your salesman?


Haha photoshop. WordArt In Microsoft word LOL. “Insert jpg file name Marriott logo” haha


----------



## dioxide45

kds4 said:


> I read owner documents that will be provided in the near future to anyone purchasing points that made us decide to purchase points immediately. I had to ask to see these documents, and not just rely on hearing about it. I don't spend money based on what I hear. Should I have been able to read what I reviewed, maybe not (yet). However, I made it clear that verbal representations wouldn't get me to purchase anything. So, my 'bluff' was called, and I'm glad it was. I have said plenty already regarding what is coming. However, I don't want to get this person in trouble, as I know Marriott monitors TUG. I didn't see any 'corporate' inside information. I only read owner documents that will be issued when these program changes are rolled out in the near future. I chose to believe my own 'lyin eyes'.
> 
> In short, I think most Marriott timeshare owners will be very happy with these enhancements, and I think many enrolled owners and pure points owners will seriously consider buying more points from the developer as a result. YMMV.


Is what you saw written in to your contract?


----------



## kds4

Ken555 said:


> Nope. This thread is nothing more than another speculative waste of time without any proof things are changing. Welcome to the TUG: Reality? show.



No problem. I'm not connected to the Marriott organization in any way. I'm strictly a Marriott timeshare owner, same as many here on TUG. If I post something I 'heard' or that is my opinion, I say so. I don't 'make stuff up' because I neither need nor want 'attention'. My only intent was to share a positive owner update experience and pass on that from that meeting I know there are some good things ahead for existing/eligible enrolled owners and points owners (or even those who may be thinking about becoming owners). Also, because of these impending changes, I recommend waiting on buying any more resale points until after these changes/enhancements occur to ensure that buying resale points is still the best route for an individual owners needs/wants under the new terms/conditions. Lastly, I recommend anyone with an upcoming owner update, ask hard questions about what I have tried to generally describe in this thread, and then ask to see the documents to back up what they tell you.


----------



## CPNY

kds4 said:


> No problem. I'm not connected to the Marriott organization in any way. I'm strictly a Marriott timeshare owner, same as many here on TUG. If I post something I 'heard' or that is my opinion, I say so. I don't 'make stuff up' because I neither need nor want 'attention'. My only intent was to share a positive owner update experience and pass on that from that meeting I know there are some good things ahead for existing/eligible enrolled owners and points owners (or even those who may be thinking about becoming owners). Also, because of these impending changes, I recommend waiting on buying any more resale points until after these changes/enhancements occur to ensure that buying resale points is still the best route for an individual owners needs/wants under the new terms/conditions. Lastly, I recommend anyone with an upcoming owner update, ask hard questions about what I have tried to generally describe in this thread, and then ask to see the documents to back up what they tell you.


So wait, one clarification. They are going to further restrict those who already purchased resale? If they will restrict resale purchases post whatever changes you’re referring to that’s one thing, but retroactively restricting resale purchase is back punishment. Why would anyone want to do business with such a slimy company? Why spend all of that money upfront if you can’t even exit because no one will want to touch any resale going forward. Either that or they scared you away from buying resale or took away your power to say, I can buy them cheaper on resale. If they turn around and further restrict those who purchase resale units or points out of the blue then thankfully I never paid developer price into MVC.


----------



## Ken555

kds4 said:


> No problem. I'm not connected to the Marriott organization in any way. I'm strictly a Marriott timeshare owner, same as many here on TUG. If I post something I 'heard' or that is my opinion, I say so. I don't 'make stuff up' because I neither need nor want 'attention'. My only intent was to share a positive owner update experience and pass on that from that meeting I know there are some good things ahead for existing/eligible enrolled owners and points owners (or even those who may be thinking about becoming owners). Also, because of these impending changes, I recommend waiting on buying any more resale points until after these changes/enhancements occur to ensure that buying resale points is still the best route for an individual owners needs/wants under the new terms/conditions. Lastly, I recommend anyone with an upcoming owner update, ask hard questions about what I have tried to generally describe in this thread, and then ask to see the documents to back up what they tell you.



While I appreciate your desire to do right by TUG, none of this is new. It's been our general recommendation for at least the ~14 years I've been here to do everything you just wrote other than the holding off of buying resale. And, as we all know from the last round of Marriott changes (in 2011?) they had a date by which resale owners could buy in to the points program. This was mentioned numerous times on TUG ever since the Marriott/Vistana acquisition talk started, so again is nothing new. Sorry, but it really seems based on your earlier posts that you purposefully wrote misleading and dramatic posts in order to create interest in the thread or for some purpose. That may have not been your intention, but that's the way I read it, and it certainly seems others are feeling similar based on your incomplete answers to multiple questions.

This is a hot topic for obvious reasons, and I think we should all hold each other to a high standard of transparency and stop these speculative threads, at least without announcing them as speculation up front.


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> they scared you away from buying resale or took away your power to say, I can buy them cheaper on resale.



Yup, you're learning.


----------



## GregT

All,

Yes, this is definitely speculation and we will all learn in the coming months what the changes are to the system.   What KDS4 has posted is directionally consistent with what I've heard earlier in 2019.   I still expect to be happy with both my VSN and my MVC ownerships from the future changes and am curious to see what comes.

Thanks to all for the comments, have been interesting to follow.

Best,

Greg


----------



## GregT

From Feb 2019, which I posted at the time -- *and remains speculation*.   No recent updates or confirmation.



> News from our corp Sales Excellence Conf. with MVC VPs and a group of the worldwide sales team:
> 
> New vacation club in Costa Rica (Los Suenos) coming shorty.  Likely a small property.
> 
> 
> Integration of MVC and Vistana (+ St. Regis Residence clubs) should be announced in about 6 months.  First phase of integration will be a points overlay – ability to convert MVC vacation points/weeks to Vistana staroptions and vice versa for cross-booking purposes.
> 
> 
> Vistana weeks will likely be given a MVC Destinations enrollment value.  This may favor Scottsdale/Palm Desert weeks as they make have close to similar values to Hawaii weeks (since that is similar to StarOptions values).
> 
> 
> Vistana/St Regis owners will likely qualify for MVC loyalty levels (Exec/Pres./Chairmans)
> 
> 
> A level higher than Chairmans is not ruled out, but likely not coming very soon
> 
> 
> Hyatt clubs being kept separate for now – until current licensing agreement with Hyatt hotels expires.  Uncertain what happens after that.
> There’s a decent chance we do one more “amnesty enrollment” of post-2010 external weeks this summer before the integration.


----------



## kds4

CPNY said:


> So wait, one clarification. They are going to further restrict those who already purchased resale? If they will restrict resale purchases post whatever changes you’re referring to that’s one thing, but retroactively restricting resale purchase is back punishment. Why would anyone want to do business with such a slimy company? Why spend all of that money upfront if you can’t even exit because no one will want to touch any resale going forward. Either that or they scared you away from buying resale or took away your power to say, I can buy them cheaper on resale. If they turn around and further restrict those who purchase resale units or points out of the blue then thankfully I never paid developer price into MVC.



No new restrictions. The opposite actually. There will be new options to use Marriott Destination Points. Existing usage options for resale points remain unchanged, from what I read. However, to 'unlock' the new uses for existing enrolled weeks/points, you have to buy a minimal number of additional points. It is a spin on the buy points to enroll weeks we former legacy owners did years ago to have the conversion to points option for our weeks. Marriott's new options to use DPs and enrolled weeks requires a new developer points purchase, but everything else you already own (X enrolled weeks/ X number of DPs) will also be enrolled/eligible for the new usage option as a result. If you are strictly a legacy (weeks) owner, this will not apply. It is for enrolled owners/DP owners.


----------



## Fasttr

kds4 said:


> No new restrictions. The opposite actually. There will be new options to use Marriott Destination Points. Existing usage options for resale points remain unchanged, from what I read. However, to 'unlock' the new uses for existing enrolled weeks/points, you have to buy a minimal number of additional points. It is a spin on the buy points to enroll weeks we former legacy owners did years ago to have the conversion to points option for our weeks. Marriott's new options to use DPs and enrolled weeks requires a new developer points purchase, but everything else you already own (X enrolled weeks/ X number of DPs) will also be enrolled/eligible for the new usage option as a result. If you are strictly a legacy (weeks) owner, this will not apply. It is for enrolled owners/DP owners.


So you will have to buy more points to allow the points you just purchased to be “unlocked”???


----------



## bogey21

I'm no longer a Marriott Owner and am just opining from the peanut gallery.  But my guess (and it is only a guess) is that Marriott will create some sort of enhancement which you will have to buy into to take advantage of.   The way I see it is that what they are after is revenue enhancement which if true, leads me to believe whatever they offer will require a buy-in of some sort...

George


----------



## jme

I'M TIRED OF READING THESE INSANE SPECULATIVE POSTS......

WE'RE GETTING NOWHERE.

here's what I think....


----------



## kds4

dioxide45 said:


> Is what you saw written in to your contract?



In the Miscellaneous Section of my contract it reads: "I acknowledge that Marriott Vacation Club currently intends to provide a resignation/resale program for Vacation Club Points Owners who wish to exit the program in the future."


----------



## CPNY

They al


kds4 said:


> In the Miscellaneous Section of my contract it reads: "I acknowledge that Marriott Vacation Club currently intends to provide a resignation/resale program for Vacation Club Points Owners who wish to exit the program in the future."


They already have a deedback program and just started one with Vistana. We are seeing so many commercials now about getting out of your dreaded timeshare, no one is buying them anymore. Most if not 90% of purchases are from existing owners. All that is telling me they will take your points back and let you out. I mean, why not? They already got your tens of thousands of dollars for you to get in at “the right time”.


----------



## Dean

kds4 said:


> I read owner documents that will be provided in the near future to anyone purchasing points that made us decide to purchase points immediately. I had to ask to see these documents, and not just rely on hearing about it. I don't spend money based on what I hear. Should I have been able to read what I reviewed, maybe not (yet). However, I made it clear that verbal representations wouldn't get me to purchase anything. So, my 'bluff' was called, and I'm glad it was. I have said plenty already regarding what is coming. However, I don't want to get this person in trouble, as I know Marriott monitors TUG. I didn't see any 'corporate' inside information. I only read owner documents that will be issued when these program changes are rolled out in the near future. I chose to believe my own 'lyin eyes'.
> 
> In short, I think most Marriott timeshare owners will be very happy with these enhancements, and I think many enrolled owners and pure points owners will seriously consider buying more points from the developer as a result. YMMV.


I've seen sales agents product paperwork before that was either not true or at the least, misleading.  A salesman, even a supervisor, is not going to have such details until a program has been locked in legally and that means filings with the county/state.  Corporate doesn't give sales level people access until they're ready to proceed.  This alone makes me skeptical but we'll see.  Certainly things will change over time.  They've been adding options to the DC system over time, none of which are earth shattering and most of which aren't worth the paper they're written on like Cruise or event options.


----------



## dioxide45

GregT said:


> From Feb 2019, which I posted at the time -- *and remains speculation*.   No recent updates or confirmation.
> 
> 
> Hyatt clubs being kept separate for now – until current licensing agreement with Hyatt hotels expires. Uncertain what happens after that.


Greg, This one seems a little skeptical. Based on prior comments by Steve Weisz mentioned in this post, the acquisition of ILG by VAC triggered a change of control provision which means that VAC had to go to the negotiating table with Hyatt in order to retain the ability to license the Hyatt name. Not sure they would have to wait for it to expire, perhaps they could just take an out now?


----------



## dioxide45

jme said:


> I'M TIRED OF READING THESE INSANE SPECULATIVE POSTS......
> 
> WE'RE GETTING NOWHERE.
> 
> here's what I think....


Marty, This one deserves a million likes!


----------



## Prooney1

So I attended a presentation this morning at summit watch in park city.  They told us that all mvc members will get access to ILG resorts starting in December.  ILG members will need to purchase 2500  MVC points in order to gain access to the Marriott program.  The only other thing they mentioned is that all mvc owners will retain their current membership tier.  However, they will be increasing the minimum point thresholds moving forward to bump up to next level.  (For example instead of 7k points for executive, it will take 9k to move to this tier from select moving forward)


----------



## dioxide45

Prooney1 said:


> So I attended a presentation this morning at summit watch in park city.  They told us that all mvc members will get access to ILG resorts starting in December.  ILG members will need to purchase 2500  MVC points in order to gain access to the Marriott program.  The only other thing they mentioned is that all mvc owners will retain their current membership tier.  However, they will be increasing the minimum point thresholds moving forward to bump up to next level.  (For example instead of 7k points for executive, it will take 9k to move to this tier from select moving forward)


I suspect they would get very little buyin from Vistana owners. All current Marriott enrolled owners get free access and Vistana owners have to pay $25K+. That isn't going to fly.


----------



## CPNY

Prooney1 said:


> So I attended a presentation this morning at summit watch in park city.  They told us that all mvc members will get access to ILG resorts starting in December.  ILG members will need to purchase 2500  MVC points in order to gain access to the Marriott program.  The only other thing they mentioned is that all mvc owners will retain their current membership tier.  However, they will be increasing the minimum point thresholds moving forward to bump up to next level.  (For example instead of 7k points for executive, it will take 9k to move to this tier from select moving forward)


Excellent. I assume for only those who purchase through the developer at top pricing? I’ll just rent peoples units in Marriott for less than maint fees if I really wanna go to a crap resort like st Kitts. But in all seriousness, that’s amazing I really hope you listened and bought more to get a higher tier! MVC couldn’t give me 2500 points to be in the program. No thanks.


----------



## dougp26364

You have to love the swirling speculation from salesmen to TUG members. Just like before the DC became reality.

The consistency’s I see are: You’ll be grandfathered in at your current level and they want you to buy points now to reach that next level. It’s been they’re mantra at every owners update since the merger. Well, that and the Hyatt products will be the last added, which disappoints me greatly as I really want easier access to the Hyatt’s located in Sedona and Key West. I love the Westin product based on our stay in Kierland Villas, but the Westin’s aren’t in the new locations we covet.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect they would get very little buyin from Vistana owners. All current Marriott enrolled owners get free access and Vistana owners have to pay $25K+. That isn't going to fly.



If that’s what’s being said we need to spread the word to all would be flex buyers to not spend a dime at Vistana. I’m going to call the Vistana sales guy and ask him tomorrow. If he says I have to spent 1 billion dollars to get into “illustrious” Marriott properties I’ll do it!! How can you pass that up? Seriously though, I hate that MVG bought us. I never liked their program. It’s truly horrible, nothing was better than Starwood. This is why I’d never buy more points at a high price. Things only get worse, quality diminishes over time. If it’s crap now, imagine 10 years from now.


----------



## CPNY

dougp26364 said:


> You have to love the swirling speculation from salesmen to TUG members. Just like before the DC became reality.
> 
> The consistency’s I see are: You’ll be grandfathered in at your current level and they want you to buy points now to reach that next level. It’s been they’re mantra at every owners update since the merger. Well, that and the Hyatt products will be the last added, which disappoints me greatly as I really want easier access to the Hyatt’s located in Sedona and Key West. I love the Westin product based on our stay in Kierland Villas, but the Westin’s aren’t in the new locations we covet.



Agree I truly hope the MVC owners stay in their beloved Marriott properties lol.


----------



## mjm1

CPNY said:


> If that’s what’s being said we need to spread the word to all would be flex buyers to not spend a dime at Vistana. I’m going to call the Vistana sales guy and ask him tomorrow. If he says I have to spent 1 billion dollars to get into “illustrious” Marriott properties I’ll do it!! How can you pass that up? Seriously though, I hate that MVG bought us. I never liked their program. It’s truly horrible, nothing was better than Starwood. This is why I’d never buy more points at a high price. Things only get worse, quality diminishes over time. If it’s crap now, imagine 10 years from now.



I hope you are able to back off of the ledge that you appear to be on. Remember this is all speculation.

We love our Marriott resorts and our Vistana resorts and look forward to the stays we have have both. There are many others who own in both systems and love them too. Of course each has their pros and cons.

I still can’t believe the MVC bought ILG and all it owned to turn around and turn off a huge portion of the owners in Vistana and Hyatt. That just wouldn’t make business sense. They want to increase revenues and profits in both the short term and long term.

While it is fun to speculate here on TUG we shouldn’t take anything we here to seriously and we should anxiously await the release of facts, hopefully later this year. I am looking forward to it.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## CPNY

mjm1 said:


> I hope you are able to back off of the ledge that you appear to be on. Remember this is all speculation.
> 
> We love our Marriott resorts and our Vistana resorts and look forward to the stays we have have both. There are many others who own in both systems and love them too. Of course each has their pros and cons.
> 
> I still can’t believe the MVC bought ILG and all it owned to turn around and turn off a huge portion of the owners in Vistana and Hyatt. That just wouldn’t make business sense. They want to increase revenues and profits in both the short term and long term.
> 
> While it is fun to speculate here on TUG we shouldn’t take anything we here to seriously and we should anxiously await the release of facts, hopefully later this year. I am looking forward to it.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike


No ledge. Just speaking truths lol. I do feel for some MVC owners though if they are being lied to. According to another MVC owner who sat through a presentation yesterday, “we sat through one yesterday, in Maui, per our presentation MVC owners have an advantage over other types of owners. Marriott spent 5.9 billion they want other owners to purchase points to recoup that cost” so if that’s what’s being said at the Marriott owners updates, I do feel bad for MVC owners who buy into that. Especially when nothing has been set in stone. Much like the other guy who’s first rodeo it isn’t and saw a word document with his own eyes and bought more developer points lol. I’m just pointing out, I’ll never buy developer price again. Unless they start selling lower than resale lol


----------



## CPNY

I’ve noticed destination point resales have resort transfer fees upwards of 7500 bucks for say 2,500DP’s. Is that normal? Is that to discourage resales?


----------



## turkel

A fool and his money are soon parted.  Sorry, until PROVEN otherwise..........you fell for his lips are moving


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> We are seeing so many commercials now about getting out of your dreaded timeshare, no one is buying them anymore. Most if not 90% of purchases are from existing owners.



If it is true that 90% of all purchases are from existing owners, then how did Marriott Vacations Worldwide sell $990 million in timeshare interests in 2018? That compares to $757 million in 2017 and $623 million in 2016. Hilton Grand Vacations also sells a lot of developer inventory, not to mention all of the "non-branded" timeshares.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> If it is true that 90% of all purchases are from existing owners, then how did Marriott Vacations Worldwide sell $990 million in timeshare interests in 2018? That compares to $757 million in 2017 and $623 million in 2016. Hilton Grand Vacations also sells a lot of developer inventory, not to mention all of the "non-branded" timeshares.


It’s why I said “most if not 90%” not hard facts. Geez guy but seriously it’s around 60% average comes from existing owners, the few lucky new owners get to come here and learn to rescind. 

But you like my figures? I can be in timeshare sales......


----------



## JIMinNC

Ken555 said:


> It's been our general recommendation for at least the ~14 years I've been here to do everything you just wrote other than the holding off of buying resale.



It's absolutely true that for traditional weeks the long-time TUG admonition to always buy retail is still 100% true. There are a couple narrow exceptions to that rule, however, for Marriott Vacation Club points. It sounds like the OP may have taken advantage of one of those exceptions.

Since from your signature you appear to own only Vistana weeks, you may not know about some of the nuances of the MVC system, where some developer purchases can be very competitive with resale. Here are two:

1) Marriott no longer sells developer weeks and only sells DC Points from their MVC Trust now. However, if you know to ask or you don't bite on their offer of points for $10.50 to $12/point (after typical discounts), they will often offer to sell (brokered by their internal resale group) an enrolled resale week, plus an amount of Trust points that matches the point value of that resale week. For example, a week worth 2500 points, plus 2500 Trust points. The 2500 Trust points will be at their standard prices, so if they offer to sell you those at $11 each, that's $27,500. The resale week worth 2500 points might only cost $9,000, though (depends on what you buy, so this is just a theoretical example). So, for $36,500 you would get 5000 total points - an average cost of about $7.50 per point. MVC Trust points sell for around $4-$4.50/point on the secondary market, but then MVC requires the buyer to pay MVC a $3/point activation fee. So most resale points also cost in the $7 - $7.50 per point range. These are obviously only example numbers, but they are typical for these kinds of packages that have been bought by TUGgers (on TUG we call them hybrid bundles). Many TUGers have elected to take this approach because the cost is similar to resale, and by buying from Marriott, we have some protection of future benefits that pure resale points may not offer.

2) From time to time (about once per year for the last four years or so) MVC has allowed owners of externally-purchased resale weeks that were bought after June 2010 (the start of the DC Points program), weeks which are normally ineligible for points enrollment, to be enrolled if the owner purchases at least 3000 DC Trust points at standard $10-$12 discounted prices. If those resale weeks are point-rich weeks like Hawaii, Aruba, summer beach weeks, etc., the average net cost of the points added (the new trust points plus the enrolled points) can result in a very attractive cost per point, often below $6/point. For an owner who wants his/her resale weeks to be able to play in the points system, this can be very attractive.

So, there are a very few restrictive cases where a developer purchase could make sense for an owner who wants to fully participate in the DC Points program.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> It's absolutely true that for traditional weeks the long-time TUG admonition to always buy retail is still 100% true. There are a couple narrow exceptions to that rule, however, for Marriott Vacation Club points. It sounds like the OP may have taken advantage of one of those exceptions.
> 
> Since from your signature you appear to own only Vistana weeks, you may not know about some of the nuances of the MVC system, where some developer purchases can be very competitive with resale. Here are two:
> 
> 1) Marriott no longer sells developer weeks and only sells DC Points from their MVC Trust now. However, if you know to ask or you don't bite on their offer of points for $10.50 to $12/point (after typical discounts), they will often offer to sell (brokered by their internal resale group) an enrolled resale week, plus an amount of Trust points that matches the point value of that resale week. For example, a week worth 2500 points, plus 2500 Trust points. The 2500 Trust points will be at their standard prices, so if they offer to sell you those at $11 each, that's $27,500. The resale week worth 2500 points might only cost $9,000, though (depends on what you buy, so this is just a theoretical example). So, for $36,500 you would get 5000 total points - an average cost of about $7.50 per point. MVC Trust points sell for around $4-$4.50/point on the secondary market, but then MVC requires the buyer to pay MVC a $3/point activation fee. So most resale points also cost in the $7 - $7.50 per point range. These are obviously only example numbers, but they are typical for these kinds of packages that have been bought by TUGgers (on TUG we call them hybrid bundles). Many TUGers have elected to take this approach because the cost is similar to resale, and by buying from Marriott, we have some protection of future benefits that pure resale points may not offer.
> 
> 2) From time to time (about once per year for the last four years or so) MVC has allowed owners of externally-purchased resale weeks that were bought after June 2010 (the start of the DC Points program), weeks which are normally ineligible for points enrollment, to be enrolled if the owner purchases at least 3000 DC Trust points at standard $10-$12 discounted prices. If those resale weeks are point-rich weeks like Hawaii, Aruba, summer beach weeks, etc., the average net cost of the points added (the new trust points plus the enrolled points) can result in a very attractive cost per point, often below $6/point. For an owner who wants his/her resale weeks to be able to play in the points system, this can be very attractive.
> 
> So, there are a very few restrictive cases where a developer purchase could make sense for an owner who wants to fully participate in the DC Points program.



I noticed that resale points still costs upwards of 10K for say 2500 DC points. MVC has made sure that buying resale hurts the buyer unless they pay up. It’s why I prefer mandatory resorts in the Vistana network. Granted there aren’t as many resorts but the resorts that VSE does have are pretty spectacular. I can’t see myself worrying about booking in MVC, I’d rather just deposit and exchange for other resorts. I’d rather have 30K in my bank account than have it tied up with Marriott. You spend tHat much do they at least give to platinum elite status?


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> It’s why I said “most if not 90%” not hard facts. Geez guy but seriously it’s around 60% average comes from existing owners, the few lucky new owners get to come here and learn to rescind.
> 
> But you like my figures? I can be in timeshare sales......



I may have misinterpreted what you meant by your 90% figure. I thought you were saying that 90% of all timeshare sales were resales, as opposed to developer sales. That didn't make sense to me because everything I have ever read about the timeshare market says that the developer-sales market dwarfs the resale market, since most buyers don't even know the resale market exists when they go to a presentation. TUGgers know all about resale, but we are a tiny, tiny minority of all owners.

It is true that MVC says that 60% of all of their annual *developer sales* come from existing MVC owners, and 40% comes from new buyers. That is the only verifiable stat I've seen.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> I noticed that resale points still costs upwards of 10K for say 2500 DC points. MVC has made sure that buying resale hurts the buyer unless they pay up. It’s why I prefer mandatory resorts in the Vistana network. Granted there aren’t as many resorts but the resorts that VSE does have are pretty spectacular. I can’t see myself worrying about booking in MVC, I’d rather just deposit and exchange for other resorts. I’d rather have 30K in my bank account than have it tied up with Marriott. You spend tHat much do they at least give to platinum elite status?



No question that Marriott has been more aggressive than either HGVC or legacy-Vistana in trying to enact rules that make resales less attractive. Prior to the advent of the DC Points system, the only thing resale weeks really couldn't do was convert to Marriott Rewards (now Bonvoy) points, and that isn't a good swap. Resale DC points also function pretty much the same as developer points, but to get that full functionality, MVC requires that the new owner pay them $3/point as an activation fee. Not cheap. Also, they typically do not allow resale weeks bought after June 2010 to play in points, unless their owner takes advantage of one of their annual promotions I mentioned above and buys at least 3000 points. In other words, if you buy resale, you must still pay MVC (one way or another) to play in points.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> I may have misinterpreted what you meant by your 90% figure. I thought you were saying that 90% of all timeshare sales were resales, as opposed to developer sales. That didn't make sense to me because everything I have ever read about the timeshare market says that the developer-sales market dwarfs the resale market, since most buyers don't even know the resale market exists when they go to a presentation. TUGgers know all about resale, but we are a tiny, tiny minority of all owners.
> 
> It is true that MVC says that 60% of all of their annual *developer sales* come from existing MVC owners, and 40% comes from new buyers. That is the only verifiable stat I've seen.


My point is that most people are being pressured many times. We see the lucky ones who stumble here. How many of them always post, “they swore they wouldn’t look up reviews”. I believe they think that because they know deep down it was a bad purchase. So many just go on paying the bill while others get to rescind. You say the word timeshare and most people roll their eyes. Then to have to explain that you own in a good program and got in cheap and it works out well. But the vast majority associate timeshares with the word scam.... now with the increasing commercials we are seeing on tv with timeshare exit teams and companies getting you out of your unwanted TS, that view point from the non owner is seeing what they always believed. “It must be bad if they have dedicated companies to get people out of that monstrosity” (paraphrasing here). The point is, MVC having a deedback or putting in their contract they will take the unit back makes sense and should have always been in place. Not to say you get a refund.  You take out a mortgage you’re on the hook for that bill. But once it’s paid, sure we will take it back. They can sell it again and they doubled their money. One way to ensure the resale of that unit taken back is to control the resale market by forcing reactivation of the points sold on the resale market, so they make their money there as well. Revenue will go up but the future purchaser the millennial will be a harder sell.


----------



## kds4

CPNY said:


> I’ve noticed destination point resales have resort transfer fees upwards of 7500 bucks for say 2,500DP’s. Is that normal? Is that to discourage resales?



It is pure profit to compensate Marriott for the lost revenue as a result of not exercising ROFR to take the resale points back into their own inventory. There is no effort required on Marriott's part for the enrollment fees it collects off resale purchases ($500 for every 250 points bought on the resale market with a minimum fee of $3,000). I believe Marriott is killing several birds with one stone with the new benefits being added to existing owners later this year. They will be solidifying their ability to generate a steady stream of points for resale without the hassle of ROFR on a few points here and there while also significantly impacting the resale market that has been competing with their direct sales for some time. After all, why would anyone sell 3rd party if they can make more just selling their product back to the developer?


----------



## CPNY

kds4 said:


> I believe Marriott is killing several birds with one stone with the new benefits being added to existing owners later this year. They will be solidifying their ability to generate a steady After all, why would anyone sell 3rd party if they can make more just selling their product back to the developer?



Are you saying Marriott is going to pay you to take units back?


----------



## kds4

CPNY said:


> Are you saying Marriott is going to pay you to take units back?



That is what the language in my contract is referring to. It is a resale program for points, not unlike past developer resale programs for weeks.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> Are you saying Marriott is going to pay you to take units back?



Just one clarification...don't use the word "units" with Marriott today. Marriott no longer sells weeks at all (They haven't since June 2010). You are not buying a "unit" from MVC; you are buying a "beneficial interest" in a Trust that owns a bunch of timeshare weeks. So if they plan to offer to buy back something that they are selling now, they are buying back points/beneficial interests. It's sort of a nit-pick, but since you are a Vistana owner, you may not yet have a full understanding of how the MVC program is currently set up. It's more like the Vistana Flex programs than the weeks that have StarOptions associated with them. The weeks MVC sold prior to June 2010 do have point values assigned and can be enrolled in the DC points system, meaning they can be converted to points in any given year, in addition to the pre-existing options of using your home week or trading in II. If this is something you already knew, my apologies for assuming otherwise, but I just wanted to make sure you knew Marriott doesn't sell weeks/units any more.


----------



## pchung6

Based on what I've read here, kds4 and other MVC owners will be happy to have the access to VSN Westin/Sheraton pool.  VSN owners here don't care about MVC access, they just want to stay at their Westin/Sheraton resorts, not Marriott.  Westin/Sheraton is really better and that's why kds4 wants to have VSN access for free.


----------



## dioxide45

kds4 said:


> That is what the language in my contract is referring to. It is a resale program for points, not unlike past developer resale programs for weeks.


I am not sure that your contract promises much of anything. Here is what you said in the prior post about that;



kds4 said:


> In the Miscellaneous Section of my contract it reads: "I acknowledge that Marriott Vacation Club currently intends to provide a resignation/resale program for Vacation Club Points Owners who wish to exit the program in the future."



That doesn't promise anything, what they intend to do and what they do actually provide can be very different. They could simply provide a resignation program and no resale program. Resign your points for $0. Also a resale program may have a 50-60% commission, unlike the current 40% on weeks. Marriott won't want to create something that competes with their existing points product and they will want to have similar margins like they have now which with ROFR and reacquisition is probably around 60-70%

I am also not sure how what you quoted relating to resignation/resale has anything to do with a proposed integrated product. Is what you saw in writing about the promised integrated program in your contract, or was what you saw related to the integrated product just really about the resignation/resale program?


----------



## dioxide45

pchung6 said:


> Based on what I've read here, kds4 and other MVC owners will be happy to have the access to VSN Westin/Sheraton pool.  VSN owners here don't care about MVC access, they just want to stay at their Westin/Sheraton resorts, not Marriott.  Westin/Sheraton is really better and that's why kds4 wants to have VSN access for free.


Nothing will be free. While it is speculation, I would expect current owners to have to buy up to any integrated product. Perhaps existing DC Trust owners and Sheraton/Westin Flex owners will have access, but really without a combined underlying trust which I have found no evidence of yet, it would all have to be handled through a new exchange program that is exclusive to trust point owners (DC or Vistana).


----------



## JIMinNC

pchung6 said:


> Based on what I've read here, kds4 and other MVC owners will be happy to have the access to VSN Westin/Sheraton pool.  VSN owners here don't care about MVC access, they just want to stay at their Westin/Sheraton resorts, not Marriott.  Westin/Sheraton is really better and that's why kds4 wants to have VSN access for free.



Not necessarily. As far as geographic locations go, the only areas that VSN Westin/Sheraton adds for me as a Marriott owner are St John, Bahamas, and Mexico. I guess they also add the Princeville area on Kauai to Marriotts existing locations in Lihue and Poipu. 

So, as a Marriott owner, I'm really not sure how much we really would use any ability to book at the VSE locations. Granted, some of the Westin locations may be nicer than their corresponding MVC locations, but we're perfectly content with the MVC locations we've stayed at. We would certainly love to sample the VSE locations if there was an inexpensive option to do so (we do love Westin hotels and the Westin Los Cabos we've stayed at twice was incredibly nice), but I'm not sure we would pay significant money to do so. We briefly considered buying a Mandatory VSE resale a year or so ago, well prior to the merger, but ultimately decided that VSE didn't add enough things that we want to what we already have with Marriott and HGVC to justify even the low cost of a Vistana Orlando resale.

I do think MVC owners might have some rightful concern for VSE competition for the places MVC has that VSE doesn't:

Oahu-KoOlina
Kauai-Poipu
Kauai-Lihue
Big Island
Hilton Head Island, SC
Marco Island, FL
Newport Coast, California
Aruba
St Kitts
Paris
Marbella, Spain
Mallorca, Spain
Surfers Paradise, Australia
Bali
Phuket, Thailand
Boston
New York
San Francisco
Las Vegas
Miami/South Beach
Washington, D.C.
Williamsburg, VA
Lake Tahoe, California
San Diego
Park City, Utah


----------



## pchung6

JIMinNC said:


> Not necessarily. As far as geographic locations go, the only areas that VSN Westin/Sheraton adds for me as a Marriott owner are St John, Bahamas, and Mexico. I guess they also add the Princeville area on Kauai to Marriotts existing locations in Lihue and Poipu.
> 
> So, as a Marriott owner, I'm really not sure how much we really would use any ability to book at the VSE locations. Granted, some of the Westin locations may be nicer than their corresponding MVC locations, but we're perfectly content with the MVC locations we've stayed at. We would certainly love to sample the VSE locations if there was an inexpensive option to do so (we do love Westin hotels and the Westin Los Cabos we've stayed at twice was incredibly nice), but I'm not sure we would pay significant money to do so. We briefly considered buying a Mandatory VSE resale a year or so ago, well prior to the merger, but ultimately decided that VSE didn't add enough things that we want to what we already have with Marriott and HGVC to justify even the low cost of a Vistana Orlando resale.
> 
> I do think MVC owners might have some rightful concern for VSE competition for the places MVC has that VSE doesn't:
> 
> Oahu-KoOlina
> Kauai-Poipu
> Kauai-Lihue
> Big Island
> Hilton Head Island, SC
> Marco Island, FL
> Newport Coast, California
> Aruba
> St Kitts
> Paris
> Marbella, Spain
> Mallorca, Spain
> Surfers Paradise, Australia
> Bali
> Phuket, Thailand
> Boston
> New York
> San Francisco
> Las Vegas
> Miami/South Beach
> Washington, D.C.
> Williamsburg, VA
> Lake Tahoe, California
> San Diego
> Park City, Utah



Just to be honest, as both VSE owner and Marriott owner, beside Ko Olina I don't want any of these other Marriott garbage.  I'm fine with any of Westin, please just leave VSN alone. I'm speaking my opinion, any Westin is better.


----------



## JIMinNC

pchung6 said:


> Just to be honest, as both VSE owner and Marriott owner, beside Ko Olina I don't want any of these other Marriott garbage.  I'm fine with any of Westin, please just leave VSN alone. I'm speaking my opinion, any Westin is better.



Yep. We all have different goals and tastes.


----------



## bazzap

JIMinNC said:


> Not necessarily. As far as geographic locations go, the only areas that VSN Westin/Sheraton adds for me as a Marriott owner are St John, Bahamas, and Mexico. I guess they also add the Princeville area on Kauai to Marriotts existing locations in Lihue and Poipu.
> 
> So, as a Marriott owner, I'm really not sure how much we really would use any ability to book at the VSE locations. Granted, some of the Westin locations may be nicer than their corresponding MVC locations, but we're perfectly content with the MVC locations we've stayed at. We would certainly love to sample the VSE locations if there was an inexpensive option to do so (we do love Westin hotels and the Westin Los Cabos we've stayed at twice was incredibly nice), but I'm not sure we would pay significant money to do so. We briefly considered buying a Mandatory VSE resale a year or so ago, well prior to the merger, but ultimately decided that VSE didn't add enough things that we want to what we already have with Marriott and HGVC to justify even the low cost of a Vistana Orlando resale.
> 
> I do think MVC owners might have some rightful concern for VSE competition for the places MVC has that VSE doesn't:
> 
> Oahu-KoOlina
> Kauai-Poipu
> Kauai-Lihue
> Big Island
> Hilton Head Island, SC
> Marco Island, FL
> Newport Coast, California
> Aruba
> St Kitts
> Paris
> Marbella, Spain
> Mallorca, Spain
> Surfers Paradise, Australia
> Bali
> Phuket, Thailand
> Boston
> New York
> San Francisco
> Las Vegas
> Miami/South Beach
> Washington, D.C.
> Williamsburg, VA
> Lake Tahoe, California
> San Diego
> Park City, Utah


As a European resident MVC owner, the acquisition only really seems to offer me alternative long haul options.
So as an owner at 4 of these locations, if any changes results in VSE competition for the places MVC has that VSE doesn’t that might just encourage me to consider refocusing on using my home resort weeks rather than to elect them for points and face increased competition for use of those points.


----------



## Dean

CPNY said:


> They al
> 
> They already have a deedback program and just started one with Vistana. We are seeing so many commercials now about getting out of your dreaded timeshare, no one is buying them anymore. Most if not 90% of purchases are from existing owners. All that is telling me they will take your points back and let you out. I mean, why not? They already got your tens of thousands of dollars for you to get in at “the right time”.


In general timeshares are sold not bought and that's true for those who own already and those who it's their first purchase.  Most new buyers don't understand the product, won't use it appropriately (sometimes at all) and don't use it in such a way as to take advantage of its benefits.  The benefit is in using it to your advantage.  As I write this from Marriott's Grande Ocean with a group of 59 people with MVC making it possible for me to arrange, that's the best benefit for me.  I've been to most US & Caribbean Marriott's and some Westin's and Vistana locations in those areas as well.  What I've seen so far is that all have some properties that are helpful for me and I would stay at again.  Comparatively speaking, the Westin's and Marriott's I visit are comparable, the Vistana's just a notch below but nothing to complain about.  

The Timeshare Exit's of the world are in business because of what I stated above plus the facts that life happens and many (if not most) who buy timeshares simply can't afford them.  The reality is that the better you are at selling them, the more reasonable it is to get them back and sell again.


----------



## Fairwinds

Haven’t attended a presentation for years but this is what I may or may not have seen elsewhere:

                                                         TOP SECRET

                                NOT FOR PUBLIC RELEASE OUTSIDE SALES CENTER

Marriott Vacation Club to partner with SpaceX

   - vistana owners will pay more but are naturally excluded forever and under all circumstances

   - select and executive members refer to vistana clause above

   - presidential members included with additional purchase

   - chairman’s club members retain all previous sense of entitlement

This document is produced for the express purpose of selling timeshare or to provide levity and is not intended to represent reality. Nor does it represent the opinion of fairwinds


----------



## dougp26364

pchung6 said:


> Based on what I've read here, kds4 and other MVC owners will be happy to have the access to VSN Westin/Sheraton pool.  VSN owners here don't care about MVC access, they just want to stay at their Westin/Sheraton resorts, not Marriott.  Westin/Sheraton is really better and that's why kds4 wants to have VSN access for free.



I must stay I'm a little surprised at the posts by Westin/VSN owners on this thread. The recurring theme seems to be they prefer MVC owners stay out of their resorts. I guess we all have a little snobbery when it comes to our home system. Personally, I don't feel Westin/Sheraton has better quality resorts/units based on my limited personal experience with both, BUT, that's my personal experience. Just because the few Westin/SVN owners who have posted on this thread don't want expanded access offered by MVC locations doesn't mean the majority of Westin/SVN owners won't find value in the expanded options that will become available.  

Honestly, while I like and enjoy the Westin resorts, the only thing they have over the MVC resorts as far as I'm concerned are that their beds are more comfortable, and that's strictly a matter of opinion/preference. Past that this MVC owner is perfectly happy staying within the MVC system with the exception of new locations that may be more readily available due to the merger vs having to exchange into them thru I.I.

My problem is Westin/VSN doesn't have any locations that I have a great deal of interest in other than expanded options in Hawaii. More units should mean more opportunity to get the week and unit size I want if I'm not to picky about which resort we book. Other than that Hyatt has ONE location, that being Sedona, that really interests me. We love Sedona and have missed having easy access into Sedona since getting rid of or DRI ownership. Key West may be of interest but, maybe only once or twice, not as a regular trip.

I doubt VSN owners will really have to worry all that much the MVC owners will swamp their resorts. There's a lot of overlap and I'd imagine there's going to be a great deal of system preferences built into any internal exchange program to keep each systems owners happy and booking where they own. Purely speculation of course but I could see limitations such as booking 12 months out for your home system and maybe 9 or 10 months out for any other system in which you didn't buy direct. Maybe those windows close a bit at the higher Elite levels to where Chairman level (or higher if they add another level) can book any system week at 13 months regardless of which system they purchased.

I do know one thing, nearly every single thought I had before the DC was introduced was DEAD WRONG. This time around I'm strictly counting on what I already own and continued usage as I've had within the MVC system. I'm guessing I'll have more options in the future, but it will take time to figure out which, if any, of those options have value. If having to wait until 9 or 10 months to book a Westin/SVN/Hyatt resort in Hawaii is the restriction, I think I'll stick with my MVC ownership and it's 13 month booking window to reserve the week and unit size I want, thank you very much.

It's all about options for me. I think for most owners in systems it's all about options and that's what keeps us in one system and not another. We enjoy the options and quality of the systems we're in. For instance, we own and enjoy HGVC as well as MVC. The problem is, HGVC doesn't offer the locations MVC offers and, they keep introducing new products that require different ownerships within their own system. Not nearly as many options as MVC offers, thus we own 4 deeded week contracts and now trust points with MVC while owning only one week with HGVC. If not for Elara in Vegas, which we love because of it's location attached to Planet Hollywood and the magnificent floor to ceiling windows that make up the exterior walls, I'd consider bailing out of HGVC all together and consolidating even further into MVC.


----------



## pchung6

dougp26364 said:


> Purely speculation of course but I could see limitations such as booking 12 months out for your home system and maybe 9 or 10 months out for any other system in which you didn't buy direct.



I hope it is just your speculation. This will the problem for most VSN owners. Why MVC owners can access at 9-10 months out while VSN can only access at 8 months? Why MVC can book at 13 months at home resort while VSN owner can book at 12? It’s not going to fly for VSN owners.

Also for most VSN owners, most will say Westin/Sheraton is better and that’s why we bought this. I don’t care about any Marriott garbage, nothing is good I don’t want to stay at Marriott, period. it’s like MVC vs Diamond resorts. Just look at Westin Ka’anapali vs MOC or Westin St John vs St Thomas, it’s not even close. I agree there should be some kind of exchange across platform, but you need to respect the owners of the other system. We own this and it’s my home away home. I will have problem if someone from MVC can book WKORV at 13 months and I can only book at 12 as a deed owner, seriously problem. Same goes to 9-10 months.


----------



## CPNY

Can we just all agree that we are all happy with the programs we bought into, and we bought in for different reasons? I personally used to love my old home resort and still do although I sold that deed, I still book back in with options. Everyone travels differently. Personally speaking none of the destinations in MVC entice me with the exception of Aruba. I prefer the Caribbean being an east coaster, having Mexico in my network with VSN is also an added bonus if I ever decide to go. The pulse resorts don’t attract me because I’d rather stay in my favorite south beach hotel when I go, and I live in nyc soo there’s that. As far as Europe, Well airbnb does me fine every time. 

Whatever is going to happen will happen, if MVC members get access to VSN but VSN owners don’t get access so be it. The only thing for certain that I personally know for a FACT is, that I wouldn’t buy anymore developer purchases or MVC inflated resale purchases for a dual program. Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m about to figure out where my next trip is


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> I hope it is just your speculation. This will the problem for most VSN owners. Why MVC owners can access at 9-10 months out while VSN can only access at 8 months? Why MVC can book at 13 months at home resort while VSN owner can book at 12? It’s not going to fly for VSN owners.
> 
> Also for most VSN owners, most will say Westin/Sheraton is better and that’s why we bought this. I don’t care about any Marriott garbage, nothing is good I don’t want to stay at Marriott, period. it’s like MVC vs Diamond resorts. Just look at Westin Ka’anapali vs MOC or Westin St John vs St Thomas, it’s not even close. I agree there should be some kind of exchange across platform, but you need to respect the owners of the other system. I will have problem if someone from MVC can book WKORV at 13 months and I can only book at 12 as a deed owner, seriously problem. Same goes to 9-10 months.



Well it depends, if the inventory comes from a different trust, separate from VSN inventory then yes, they can put whatever booking window they please. I’d much rather them do something like this. Everyone has access with a cross booking fee of 299 bucks, sort of like an exchange fee we pay with interval now. You’ll get more people will to pay that way than spend thousands upfront which I doubt people will be running to do. I for one would never spend another 10K minimum with added increasing annual fees to book MVC units, I’d rather just rent on redweek. But I would on occasion pay a few hundred bucks every so often.

One way to ensure only developer purchasers have that right is for the rule to make sure the interest is enrolled in the bonvoy program. That eliminates resale purchasers and would make them add on to enjoy that benefit. I’d be ok with that. I still wouldn’t buy more to enroll but there ya have it. If they roll out a NEW program they can pretty much set whatever rules they want.


----------



## kds4

pchung6 said:


> Based on what I've read here, kds4 and other MVC owners will be happy to have the access to VSN Westin/Sheraton pool.  VSN owners here don't care about MVC access, they just want to stay at their Westin/Sheraton resorts, not Marriott.  Westin/Sheraton is really better and that's why kds4 wants to have VSN access for free.



I have never stayed at either a Westin or Sheraton vacation club property, so I have no idea if they are better. I also do not 'want to have VSN access for free' (since I don't even know if I will consider it better than a Marriott property if/when I do try one). All of my comments about the integrated product are only what I heard during the meeting. I didn't read anything about the ILG acquisition.


----------



## kds4

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure that your contract promises much of anything. Here is what you said in the prior post about that;
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't promise anything, what they intend to do and what they do actually provide can be very different. They could simply provide a resignation program and no resale program. Resign your points for $0. Also a resale program may have a 50-60% commission, unlike the current 40% on weeks. Marriott won't want to create something that competes with their existing points product and they will want to have similar margins like they have now which with ROFR and reacquisition is probably around 60-70%
> 
> I am also not sure how what you quoted relating to resignation/resale has anything to do with a proposed integrated product. Is what you saw in writing about the promised integrated program in your contract, or was what you saw related to the integrated product just really about the resignation/resale program?



The details of what I read had nothing to do with an integrated product or the ILG acquisition. Also, the commission is not in the range you describe.


----------



## turkel

Comical....we should respect owners while calling their ownership garbage.

I prefer my MVC ownerships and have no desire to access VSN, I have stayed at 2 and meh. Wouldn’t call em garbage....

Personally I also wouldn’t disparage VSN on the VSN board but hey that’s just me being civil.


----------



## grgs

I'm a Starwood/VSN owner, and I don't think Marriott is garbage.  When we bought our 1st timeshare in 2004, Marriott didn't have a points program, so that pushed us over to the Starwood side.  But we've enjoyed our stays at Marriott resorts, and I would be happy to vacation in more of them. Certainly Marriott has many more locations.  While I am generally satisfied by the location options I have now, if I had access to more locations, I would be interested in exploring them from time to time.

While I enjoy speculating as much as anyone (otherwise, I wouldn't read all these threads), it's hard for me to get too worked up before anything official comes out.


----------



## GregT

I also own both systems and have had tremendous experiences with both ownerships.   I love MOC, WKORV, WPORV, Ritz STT, Ko Olina, Grande Ocean (Hilton Head), Park City (both properties), Boston, Harborside, Aruba Ocean Club, and Lagunamar and have had mostly great experiences at any of my timeshares.   I think the quality is very good or better at all properties.  There are a couple (not listed) that I think are below that level, but that is the exception.

When DC was introduced, everyone was concerned it was going to kill the Interval trading experience.  It hasn’t killed it, but has made uptrading more rare.  I’ve continued to have good experience with Interval trades (with my preference).

I think StarOption traders will continue to experience success and I think I will continue to access WPORV with my StarOptions.  And those VSN owners who wish to participate will now be able to easily access Aruba/Hilton Head/Park City, or whatever location they choose that is dependent on II trades now.

From a speculation perspective, I think there will be an exchange ratio (30:1?) for StarOptions to/from DC points and then after the exchange the user still uses the existing systems rules (8 months out for VSN, etc).

In time, I speculate VSN weeks will be assigned a DC point total and be able to be redeemed directly for DC points.  We will see.

I think it will be a positive for both parties - access to new locations but respecting the existing rights (and experience) of current owners.

But all speculation at this point.  I do think Aruba in particular has appeal to VSN owners, who were disappointed when the Westin Aruba was canceled.  I am sure Marriott will heavily promote Aruba when trying to market to Starwood owners.

Interesting stuff.....

Best,

Greg


----------



## JIMinNC

kds4 said:


> The details of what I read had nothing to do with an integrated product or the ILG acquisition. Also, the commission is not in the range you describe.



Trying to get away from the "my resort is better than your garbage" discussion and back to your initial post.

I'm not sure I understand exactly which message you are trying to convey about what you were told. In different conversations in this thread it sounded like it could be either of the two following general messages:

1) Don't buy resale points now because changes are coming that could make those resale points less useful/more restricted.
2) Don't buy resale points now because changes are coming that will bring new and improved opportunities (presumably for developer purchases), so it may be better to wait and decide your options after those changes are announced. 

I understand that you may want to be careful what you say if you feel that you were told something that most weren't told, and you want to protect the people who told you; but can you clarify which of the above is the general message you were told and which you are trying to convey?


----------



## CPNY

GregT said:


> I also own both systems and have had tremendous experiences at both properties.   I love MOC, WKORV, WPORV, Ritz STT, Ko Olina, Grande Ocean (Hilton Head), Park City (both properties), Boston, Aruba Ocean Club, and Lagunamar have had mostly great experiences at any of my timeshares.   I think the quality is very good or better at all properties.  There are a couple that I think are below that level, but that is the exception.
> 
> When DC was introduced, everyone was concerned it was going to kill the Interval trading experience.  It hasn’t killed it, but has made uptrading more rare.  I’ve continued to have good experience with Interval trades (with my preference).
> 
> I think StarOption traders will continue to experience success and I think I will continue to access WPORV with my StarOptions.  And those VSN owners who wish to participate will now be able to easily access Aruba/Hilton Head/Park City, or whatever location they choose that is dependent on II trades now.
> 
> From a speculation perspective, I think there will be an exchange ratio (30:1?) for StarOptions to/from DC points and then after the exchange the user still uses the existing systems rules (8 months out for VSN, etc).
> 
> In time, I speculate VSN weeks will be assigned a DC point total and be able to be redeemed directly for DC points.  We will see.
> 
> I think it will be a positive for both parties - access to new locations but respecting the existing rights (and experience) or current owners.
> 
> But all speculation at this point.  I do think Aruba in particular has appeal to VSN owners, who were disappointed when the Westin Aruba was canceled.  I am sure Marriott will heavily promote Aruba when trying to market to Starwood owners.
> 
> Interesting stuff.....
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


I agree, with that you say. I was one who was not happy when Westin Aruba was cancelled. Bad timing or whatever the case was. At an update in Aruba they towed the line that many owners either defaulted in their units and they have plenty of inventory. I take that with a grain of salt. I have no desire to go to Cancun but if I did I’m sure I would enjoy the lagunmar


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> Trying to get away from the "my resort is better than your garbage" discussion and back to your initial post.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand exactly which message you are trying to convey about what you were told. In different conversations in this thread it sounded like it could be either of the two following general messages:
> 
> 1) Don't buy resale points now because changes are coming that could make those resale points less useful/more restricted.
> 2) Don't buy resale points now because changes are coming that will bring new and improved opportunities (presumably for developer purchases), so it may be better to wait and decide your options after those changes are announced.
> 
> I understand that you may want to be careful what you say if you feel that you were told something that most weren't told, and you want to protect the people who told you; but can you clarify which of the above is the general message you were told and which you are trying to convey?


Keep in mind...... he was told something or showed something by a sales guy who asked him to promise not to tell anyone, THEN he signed in the line to BUY MORE points. Bottom line is, he took the bait and is trying to justify that he knows something we all don’t and his purchase before prices went up was a smart move. That’s the bottom line.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> Keep in mind...... he was told something or showed something by a sales guy who asked him to promise not to tell anyone, THEN he signed in the line to BUY MORE points. Bottom line is, he took the bait and is trying to justify that he knows something we all don’t and his purchase before prices went up was a smart move. That’s the bottom line.



For sure it's prudent to take what is said in any sales presentation with a very large grain of salt but, from time-to-time in the past, TUGgers on this Marriott board have picked up hints of program changes from sales reps a few weeks or months ahead of the formal announcement. Sometimes these hints proved to be spot on, other times not so much. As a result, it's always interesting to read the info, but always to look at it in context of where it came from.

It's also important to understand the knowledge and experience level of the TUGger posting the information. Since you are a VSE owner, you may not be aware of who on the Marriott board are the more knowledgeable and experienced owners. The OP in this thread, kds4, is a long-time poster on this board and is an informed and knowledgeable owner. As I noted in post #99, there are a couple of situations where a developer points purchase from MVC can be price-competitive with resale MVC points, so just because someone "took the bait" doesn't mean they are a typical uninformed buyer. Based on my experience with the OP here on the Marriott board, I believe that kds4 is the type of owner who understands how the MVC system works, and who probably made an informed decision, based on more than just what they were told in the presentation.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

Speculation and discussion on this is very interesting (some great ideas!).

I think we can all agree that some type of change "may" be coming in the future.  What we can't agree on is how extensive these changes will be and exactly when they will be implemented.

It will be interesting to see what the future will bring to the affected owners!






.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> For sure it's prudent to take what is said in any sales presentation with a very large grain of salt, but from time-to-time in the past, TUGgers on this Marriott board have picked up hints of program changes from sales reps a few weeks or months ahead of the formal announcement. Sometimes these hints proved to be spot on, other times not so much. As a result, it's always interesting to read the info, but always to look at it in context of where it came from.
> 
> It's also important to understand the knowledge and experience level of the TUGger posting the information. Since you are a VSE owner, you may not be aware of who on the Marriott board are the more knowledgeable and experienced owners. The OP in this thread, kds4, is a long-time poster on this board and is an informed and knowledgeable owner. As I noted in post #99, there are a couple of situations where a developer points purchase from MVC can be price-competitive with resale MVC points, so just because someone "took the bait" doesn't mean they are a typical uninformed buyer. Based on my experience with the OP here on the Marriott board, I believe that kds4 is the type of owner who understands how the MVC system works, and who probably made an informed decision.



So you’re saying that MVC is informing their owners of new programs coming and to buy more now but the Vistana sales reps aren’t? I wonder if there are legal implications if the sales guys know what’s coming but isn’t telling everyone? Is that like withholding information? If the OP is savvy and most knowledgeable owners as all MVC owners are, and he was told as he said that only MVC owners will be able to book into all resorts but all VSN members won’t be able to I’d wonder if that’s fraudulent on the new sales on the other side? Making them buy more after signing on the dotted line on a new contract now to be enrolled. It’s apparent that if they all know what’s coming and one side would be “screwed” and have to buy more I’d say that’s a slimy company and one I wouldn’t want to give anymore money too lol. Once again, makes no difference to me as I don’t intend on booking any MVC property, since I tend to go back to my old home resort and occasionally ski in beaver creek.


----------



## rickandcindy23

The original post was vague.  I was at a presentation in Ko Olina early May.  I heard nothing to make me believe that there would be any mixing of the two systems.  But they got you to buy, so good on 'em.  I would have to get a smokin' deal with 0% interest to take advantage of anything they offered us in May.  

I can see II giving access to all preference of Vistana and Marriott to every owner.  That might be bad for both sides.  I bought Marriott specifically for Marriott preference in II.  I bought Sheraton for preference as well.


----------



## kds4

CPNY said:


> So you’re saying that MVC is informing their owners of new programs coming and to buy more now but the Vistana sales reps aren’t? I wonder if there are legal implications if the sales guys know what’s coming but isn’t telling everyone? Is that like withholding information? If the OP is savvy and most knowledgeable owners as all MVC owners are, and he was told as he said that only MVC owners will be able to book into all resorts but all VSN members won’t be able to I’d wonder if that’s fraudulent on the new sales on the other side? Making them buy more after signing on the dotted line on a new contract now to be enrolled. It’s apparent that if they all know what’s coming and one side would be “screwed” and have to buy more I’d say that’s a slimy company and one I wouldn’t want to give anymore money too lol. Once again, makes no difference to me as I don’t intend on booking any MVC property, since I tend to go back to my old home resort and occasionally ski in beaver creek.



What I'm saying is that Marriott is adding benefits to the ownership of those who own/enrolled in the Marriott Destination Points program. Any comments I have posted related to the ILG acquisition (and the companies acquired in it) is only speculation based solely on what I heard in the meeting.


----------



## CPNY

TheTimeTraveler said:


> Speculation and discussion on this is very interesting (some great ideas!).
> 
> I think we can all agree that some type of change "may" be coming in the future.  What we can't agree on is how extensive these changes will be and exactly when they will be implemented.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what the future will bring to the affected owners!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Apparently it’s not speculation and the OP who is most knowledgeable knows something. Which is apparently a fact. So, it’s being said that the facts are that MVC Points owners can book any resort they want whenever they want but all other owners will be forced to buy interests in the MVC points program to cross book.  

I’ll just say, any VSN owner who actually spends thousands of dollars more to occasionally book a Marriott resort is..........with the exception of those that don’t have star option capabilities. 

I’d rather rent and pay the equivalent to annual fees to visit other resorts. NOW, if MVC said you can book our new airbnb style program and get Airbnb’s for points maybe I’d think about it. Almost 70% of my travel these days is staying In airbnb’s And I’m starting to prefer that. Especially in cities. Beach vacations I prefer a TS villa.


----------



## GregT

CPNY said:


> So you’re saying that MVC is informing their owners of new programs coming and to buy more now but the Vistana sales reps aren’t? I wonder if there are legal implications if the sales guys know what’s coming but isn’t telling everyone? Is that like withholding information? If the OP is savvy and most knowledgeable owners as all MVC owners are, and he was told as he said that only MVC owners will be able to book into all resorts but all VSN members won’t be able to I’d wonder if that’s fraudulent on the new sales on the other side? Making them buy more after signing on the dotted line on a new contract now to be enrolled. It’s apparent that if they all know what’s coming and one side would be “screwed” and have to buy more I’d say that’s a slimy company and one I wouldn’t want to give anymore money too lol. Once again, makes no difference to me as I don’t intend on booking any MVC property, since I tend to go back to my old home resort and occasionally ski in beaver creek.


No that’s not what he said.

And it is also not being said that MVC owners can book whatever they want whenever they want.


----------



## CPNY

GregT said:


> No that’s not what he said.
> 
> And it is also not being said that MVC owners can book whatever they want whenever they want.





kds4 said:


> I understand why folks in these other programs would not like it, but MVCI's ultimate responsibility is to its shareholders. I believe they will come up with a way to 'value' in the DC levels of ownership what these other people's ownerships in these other systems are worth and place them accordingly (from the bottom level through Chairman's or higher). I believe they will still be able to exchange within their own systems as they always have. However, to play in the DC pool, I expect MVCI will require them to 'buy-in' at some minimal level of points (and it may be a few thousand points). People in these other systems won't like having to 'pay to play'. However, as said before, MVCI bought their companies. As long as they can continue to do what they have always done, their ownership has not been lessened. To play in the DC system represents an enhancement to their ownership that MVCI can rightly (in a purely business sense) charge them to get. If it was the other way around, their companies could certainly have done the same thing to MVCI owners (as part of their responsibility to their own shareholders). JMHO, as I only 'heard' this.



But it kinda is what he eluded to “hearing” or read in a document. However meaning that DC members will be able to book whatever resort they want. My issue here is, if he saw a document that propelled him to sign, why no say what he saw. Tell the rest of us so we can make an informed decision. Maybe buying now would be a smart idea if this program is going to be unbeatable. Why let people sit around if prices will double. Sounds like he may actually work for MVC. Think of your fellow tuggers. Hell, if I saw a document and I bought more. I’d tell ya this is what I read.... step 1 step 2 and step 3 was on the list. So I took a gamble because this may happen. “Eluding to” is iffy.

You can’t say I saw something in writing, and that you can’t say it for fear of getting people in trouble, but you saw with your own eyes, and then say “in my opinion” things will happen based on what I “heard” after saying you read it. 

It’s like knowing where to go get a a great car at a great price and when your friend needs a car and asks what kind of deal you got you just keep telling him about the great price you got, when he asks what dealership you don’t tell him because you don’t want to get the sales guy in trouble for giving you the discount.


----------



## bogey21

CPNY said:


> So, it’s being said that the facts are that MVC Points owners can book any resort they want whenever they want but all other owners will be forced to buy interests in the MVC points program to cross book.



Makes sense to me from Marriott Corporate's perspective...

George


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> But it kinda is what he eluded to “hearing” or read in a document. However meaning that DC members will be able to book whatever resort they want. My issue here is, if he saw a document that propelled him to sign, why no say what he saw. Tell the rest of us so we can make an informed decision. Maybe buying now would be a smart idea if this program is going to be unbeatable. Why let people sit around if prices will double. Sounds like he may actually work for MVC. Think of your fellow tuggers. Hell, if I saw a document and I bought more. I’d tell ya this is what I read.... step 1 step 2 and step 3 was on the list. So I took a gamble because this may happen. “Eluding to” is iffy.
> 
> You can’t say I saw something in writing, and that you can’t say it for fear of getting people in trouble, but you saw with your own eyes, and then say “in my opinion” things will happen based on what I “heard” after saying you read it.
> 
> It’s like knowing where to go get a a great car at a great price and when your friend needs a car and asks what kind of deal you got you just keep telling him about the great price you got, when he asks what dealership you don’t tell him because you don’t want to get the sales guy in trouble for giving you the discount.



It's one thing to tell a friend something one-on-one, quite another to post info on a public message board for all the world to see. If I was ever told something at a presentation that was presented as inside info - even if I thought it was probably BS - I would be reluctant to post it on a public forum just in case it was the real deal. I would hate to be responsible for getting someone fired.


----------



## CPNY

bogey21 said:


> Makes sense to me from Marriott Corporate's perspective...
> 
> George


LoL here is why it makes sense to you. If you own MVC you expect some level of “loyalty” but this day in age customer loyalty isn’t what It used to be. They give you just enough to make you feel like to have loyalty. In reality you see it quite often over the years. Look at all the points programs across all programs. Points get devalued. Airline miles aren’t what they used to be, hotel points etc. MVG owns it all now right? All customers in their network are now stakeholders, why would you allienate stakeholders? Everyone is a potential customer to buy more. I think you would see something a bit more fair that involved kicking in more money somehow someway.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> It's one thing to tell a friend something one-on-one, quite another to post info on a public message board for all the world to see. If I was ever told something at a presentation that was presented as inside info - even if I thought it was probably BS - I would be reluctant to post it on a public forum just in case it was the real deal. I would hate to be responsible for getting someone fired.



I know I’m new here but I missed the part of personal information being shared and now it can be traced back. I get what you’re saying. But the fact that he was shown a confidential document he wasn’t allowed to see is cause enough for termination of the sales rep. If not, why not show more people who ask? If they do show everyone who asks well then it will be harder to trace back to a single person or it’s not that confidential.


----------



## GregT

All,

Is anyone taking a sales presentation in the coming weeks?  If so, could you inquire on potential changes/introduction of a points buy-back program?

Marriott has been posturing that it’s coming for years now, and if it’s truly coming, it would be a factor in both the purchase of new points and the resale market, as OP has alluded to.  

This reminds me of the flurry of rumors before official announcement of other significant changes (implementation of Ritz DC, hybrid sales, ability to enroll post-2010 weeks) and a point buy-back program would be a logical addition for Marriott.   Lord knows they’ve been talking about it long enough. 

I will see what I can learn too but would appreciate if anyone is attending a sales meeting, and if this topic is addressed (officially or unofficially).   Thanks!

Best,

Greg


----------



## Ken555

JIMinNC said:


> For sure it's prudent to take what is said in any sales presentation with a very large grain of salt but, from time-to-time in the past, TUGgers on this Marriott board have picked up hints of program changes from sales reps a few weeks or months ahead of the formal announcement. Sometimes these hints proved to be spot on, other times not so much. As a result, it's always interesting to read the info, but always to look at it in context of where it came from.
> 
> It's also important to understand the knowledge and experience level of the TUGger posting the information. Since you are a VSE owner, you may not be aware of who on the Marriott board are the more knowledgeable and experienced owners. The OP in this thread, kds4, is a long-time poster on this board and is an informed and knowledgeable owner. As I noted in post #99, there are a couple of situations where a developer points purchase from MVC can be price-competitive with resale MVC points, so just because someone "took the bait" doesn't mean they are a typical uninformed buyer. Based on my experience with the OP here on the Marriott board, I believe that kds4 is the type of owner who understands how the MVC system works, and who probably made an informed decision, based on more than just what they were told in the presentation.



Context is key, and I appreciate it. As I appreciated your earlier explanation of a possible, very expensive, method for acquiring points from Marriott direct in a similar price range as resale.

However, based on kds4’s incomplete posts and many others obvious concern that we are not receiving the full story, one should question why he even posted at all. In the end this was just a “trust me, don’t buy right now but I can’t explain why other than everything is going to get so much better” message. Sorry, I consider that to be a total waste of time.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## pchung6

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> Is anyone taking a sales presentation in the coming weeks?  If so, could you inquire on potential changes/introduction of a points buy-back program?



I am going to Maui staying at Nanea next month.  Because of this thread made me very angry last night, I will attend and will provide everyone a concrete story of my meeting, unlike the OP. It will be more of VSN meeting, not sure your question will be relevant, but I will ask.


----------



## StevenTing

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> Is anyone taking a sales presentation in the coming weeks?  If so, could you inquire on potential changes/introduction of a points buy-back program?



It hasn’t been scheduled yet but I plan on taking one when I head to Grande Ocean in a month.


----------



## dioxide45

kds4 said:


> So, just returned from an enjoyable trip (prefer to not say where) and what I would consider to be the most beneficial 'owner update' I have been to. Very interesting discussion about the ILG acquisition and what changes are coming (or not coming) as a result. We talked about some important dates to remember, such as 2015 and October, 2019 (as examples). *Told to expect a couple of significant emails this fall about DC changes coming that many owners have been wanting (as a result of the ILG acquisition). I realize that some folks may take the position that "if their lips were moving, don't believe it". That has often been my perspective as well during past presentations. However, I didn't just hear it,* as it would take more than that to get me to buy more points (which I did). Stay tuned. This is about to get really interesting for MVCI owners.





kds4 said:


> What I'm saying is that Marriott is adding benefits to the ownership of those who own/enrolled in the Marriott Destination Points program. Any comments I have posted related to the ILG acquisition (and the companies acquired in it) is only speculation based solely on what I heard in the meeting.


Wait a minute, the first quote here is from the first post in this thread. You certainly were implying that you saw something in writing as it pertains to the integrated product. Now the only thing you saw was regarding a buyback/resignation program? So any integration discussion on your part is pure speculation based on "their lips are moving" and nothing in writing?

While a resale program of DC points would be good for owners, I just don't see it really ever happening. Back in the weeks days, Marriott would not even resell weeks at a resort if it was still in active sales. What incentive would they have to sell your DC points over their own unless the margin was close to what they would be making on their own product, which is about 50-60%?


----------



## dougp26364

pchung6 said:


> I am going to Maui staying at Nanea next month.  Because of this thread made me very angry last night, I will attend and will provide everyone a concrete story of my meeting, unlike the OP. It will be more of VSN meeting, not sure your question will be relevant, but I will ask.



Angry? Why?

I think you’re taking this discussion a little to seriously. No one has lost any benefits. No one has lost or gained any access. Westin/SVN Owner’s will undoubtedly retain all the rights they were initially granted when they purchased. It’s very hard to change, remove or do an end around of those rights without creating more headache than it’s worth. About all that will happen is Westin/VSN owners will gain access to several new resorts/locations while retaining their original rights as owners.

Please stop letting unfounded speculation make you angry. Salesmen tell us what we want to hear. We buy what we believe we need.

I guess it’s ironic that a speculative thread on TUG has you looking forward to attending a SALES presentation to verify speculation that undoubtedly won’t have much basis in fact. Maybe the sales weasels are even more weasely than we thought.


----------



## CPNY

dougp26364 said:


> Angry? Why?
> 
> I think you’re taking this discussion a little to seriously. No one has lost any benefits. No one has lost or gained any access. Westin/SVN Owner’s will undoubtedly retain all the rights they were initially granted when they purchased. It’s very hard to change, remove or do an end around of those rights without creating more headache than it’s worth. About all that will happen is Westin/VSN owners will gain access to several new resorts/locations while retaining their original rights as owners.
> 
> Please stop letting unfounded speculation make you angry. Salesmen tell us what we want to hear. We buy what we believe we need.
> 
> I guess it’s ironic that a speculative thread on TUG has you looking forward to attending a SALES presentation to verify speculation that undoubtedly won’t have much basis in fact. Maybe the sales weasels are even more weasely than we thought.


Weasels is a polite word.


----------



## dougp26364

CPNY said:


> Weasels is a polite word.



Oh there not all bad. There’s the occasional sales person that enjoys a nice 90 minute conversation with you before allowing you to collect your bounty.


----------



## CPNY

dougp26364 said:


> Angry? Why?
> 
> I think you’re taking this discussion a little to seriously. No one has lost any benefits. No one has lost or gained any access. Westin/SVN Owner’s will undoubtedly retain all the rights they were initially granted when they purchased. It’s very hard to change, remove or do an end around of those rights without creating more headache than it’s worth. About all that will happen is Westin/VSN owners will gain access to several new resorts/locations while retaining their original rights as owners.
> 
> Please stop letting unfounded speculation make you angry. Salesmen tell us what we want to hear. We buy what we believe we need.
> 
> I guess it’s ironic that a speculative thread on TUG has you looking forward to attending a SALES presentation to verify speculation that undoubtedly won’t have much basis in fact. Maybe the sales weasels are even more weasely than we thought.


Just call Vistana over the phone. I did. Spoke to sales. They offered me 22K to buy back my mandatory week to out toward the purchase of a flex program. They assured me no one knows what’s coming and everything you read is speculation. However they told me a new program is coming an to get in now before the prices go up! They made it sound like it would be a joint program and they can’t say what though because they were on a recorded line but I should read between the lines. I said I would never buy based on maybes and what ifs. But they tried hard to get me to get In now..... so to say that flex owners buying today wouldn’t be enrolled in a joint program but MVC owners automatically will get that right is absurd. If they crap on VSN owners like that, I think you’ll have a lot of angry customers who would not want to do business with MVG. BUT it seems that looking back on historical trends, MVC treated their owners like crap anyway. Especially when it came to resale owners. I’ll never buy into their new program if they make me


----------



## CPNY

dougp26364 said:


> Oh there not all bad. There’s the occasional sales person that enjoys a nice 90 minute conversation with you before allowing you to collect your bounty.


I generally go and try to stay as long as I can. I talk them in circles then throw their sales pitches back in their face.

Me: “ I love harborside resort”
Sales rep “ you know harborside is one of the Crown Jewels in the program, and you’ll have more options to go there with the new flex program”

10 min later
Sales rep” so we will buy back your Vistana deed and put 22k toward your new purchase”
Me: “how much to take back my harborside deed instead?”
Sales rep: “yeah, that will never happen, we aren’t touching those”
Me: “but why not? I thought it was the crown jewel?!?” “Why wouldn’t you want inventory to the crown jewel to put into your new joint program pool. I mean, it was the end all be all as of 10 min ago”

So on and so forth lol.


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## dougp26364

CPNY said:


> Just call Vistana over the phone. I did. Spoke to sales. They offered me 22K to buy back my mandatory week to out toward the purchase of a flex program. They assured me no one knows what’s coming and everything you read is speculation. However they told me a new program is coming an to get in now before the prices go up! They made it sound like it would be a joint program and they can’t say what though because they were on a recorded line but I should read between the lines. I said I would never buy based on maybes and what ifs. But they tried hard to get me to get In now..... so to say that flex owners buying today wouldn’t be enrolled in a joint program but MVC owners automatically will get that right is absurd. If they crap on VSN owners like that, I think you’ll have a lot of angry customers who would not want to do business with MVG. BUT it seems that looking back on historical trends, MVC treated their owners like crap anyway. Especially when it came to resale owners. I’ll never buy into their new program if they make me



Isn’t that what everyone has said? It’s ALL PURE SPECULATION until that put the program out and it’s in writing? Much ado about nothing.

Here’s what I’ll guarantee you. There will be new, different or improved benefits to entice new purchases. There will be some sort of co-branding and co-mingling of the products. Exactly what, when and how no one will know until it’s finalized. Any paper shown a prospective purchaser would be a preliminary proposal not yet finalized and not anything to count on when contemplating a developer purchase.

We recently purchased additional points plus a Marriott approved resale week through their resale dept. Not because of any future benefits we might receive (which, BTW, have been alluded too at every owners update we’ve attended), but because it fit our vacation wants/needs within the existing MVC program.


----------



## CPNY

dougp26364 said:


> Isn’t that what everyone has said? It’s ALL PURE SPECULATION until that put the program out and it’s in writing? Much ado about nothing.
> 
> Here’s what I’ll guarantee you. There will be new, different or improved benefits to entice new purchases. There will be some sort of co-branding and co-mingling of the products. Exactly what, when and how no one will know until it’s finalized. Any paper shown a prospective purchaser would be a preliminary proposal not yet finalized and not anything to count on when contemplating a developer purchase.
> 
> We recently purchased additional points plus a Marriott approved resale week through their resale dept. Not because of any future benefits we might receive (which, BTW, have been alluded too at every owners update we’ve attended), but because it fit our vacation wants/needs within the existing MVC program.


Yes that is what everyone has said. It’s all speculation. Except for the OP of this thread.... he has said he saw a document providing details of a program where MVC buyers will benefit and no one else will. Which is why he advised against buying resale right now.


----------



## CPNY

dougp26364 said:


> Isn’t that what everyone has said? It’s ALL PURE SPECULATION until that put the program out and it’s in writing? Much ado about nothing.
> 
> Here’s what I’ll guarantee you. There will be new, different or improved benefits to entice new purchases. There will be some sort of co-branding and co-mingling of the products. Exactly what, when and how no one will know until it’s finalized. Any paper shown a prospective purchaser would be a preliminary proposal not yet finalized and not anything to count on when contemplating a developer purchase.
> 
> We recently purchased additional points plus a Marriott approved resale week through their resale dept. Not because of any future benefits we might receive (which, BTW, have been alluded too at every owners update we’ve attended), but because it fit our vacation wants/needs within the existing MVC program.


Does Buying through their resale dept come with any restrictions?


----------



## dougp26364

CPNY said:


> Yes that is what everyone has said. It’s all speculation. Except for the OP of this thread.... he has said he saw a document providing details of a program where MVC buyers will benefit and no one else will. Which is why he advised against buying resale right now.



And maybe what the OP read was real, maybe it was just a proposal with tweaks yet to come or maybe it was a made up lie put on paper that he wasn’t allowed to photograph or copy. It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been shown something in writing I knew to be complete BS, just not at a Marriott presentation. EVERY sales room wants you to believe buying resale will leave you out in the cold.


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## dougp26364

CPNY said:


> Does Buying through their resale dept come with any restrictions?



If you buy your resale week thru Marriott, there are no restrictions, but I think you need to buy a corresponding number of trust points for the week to “qualify. I wanted a small amount of trust points to allow us to go when/where we wanted. They just hadn’t produced a package at a price I was willing to pay until this last time.

The package offered us a week at a resort we liked, during a season we could use and got the price/trust point below $8/point. Plus we bumped up an ownership level and now have more than enough points to book any week we want in any view category that suits our desire. No more having to work out a save/borrow strategy. No more having to accept a view category less than what we really want. No more having to book a “cheap” week to offset the higher points requirement of a week we really want to book. We go to Hawaii EOY and prefer to see the ocean instead of the less expensive island view, which could end up as a parking lot view. In the past when we’ve done that, I had to ration our points for another vacation to offset the high cost of the better view in Hawaii. Sure I could have done this cheaper but, this way gives us the most in flexibility and options. I like flexibility and options.


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## Ken555

dougp26364 said:


> And maybe what the OP read was real, maybe it was just a proposal with tweaks yet to come or maybe it was a made up lie put on paper that he wasn’t allowed to photograph or copy. It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been shown something in writing I knew to be complete BS, just not at a Marriott presentation. EVERY sales room wants you to believe buying resale will leave you out in the cold.



Yes. However, this doesn’t change the facts that he didn’t answer direct questions in detail, continued to suggest that he knew something he couldn’t discuss, saw paperwork which confirmed his belief that the new program would be better...blah blah blah... if I posted something like this, even though I’ve been around TUG for many years, I would expect all of you to jump on me and demand proof. I really can’t believe some of you are defending him.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CPNY

dougp26364 said:


> And maybe what the OP read was real, maybe it was just a proposal with tweaks yet to come or maybe it was a made up lie put on paper that he wasn’t allowed to photograph or copy. It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been shown something in writing I knew to be complete BS, just not at a Marriott presentation. EVERY sales room wants you to believe buying resale will leave you out in the cold.


Of course! But why would the sales dept have proposals to new programs that aren’t finalized yet? The risk of false representation and misleading sales tactics puts the company at risk. I think it was a complete BS made up word document in the back office. But that’s JMO. Who knows?! I just hope whatever happens I still have plenty of inventory to book my favorite resorts I currently utilize lol


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## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> Yes. However, this doesn’t change the facts that he didn’t answer direct questions in detail, continued to suggest that he knew something he couldn’t discuss, saw paperwork which confirmed his belief that the new program would be better...blah blah blah... if I posted something like this, even though I’ve been around TUG for many years, I would expect all of you to jump on me and demand proof. I really can’t believe some of you are defending him.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That’s why I’m still going at it..... people are defending him, it’s mind boggling lol. Defending the fact that he saw something but isn’t saying something. I’ll tell ya, I don’t want to be stuck on the subway with him and he’s the only one who sees a suspicious package. Ha.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I dont buy that there will be a one way access benefit for existing MVC owners. Does not fit their greedy MO. Why leave money on the table when they have an expensive acquisition to pay for?

The TS market is saturated and mature. New TS buyers are drying up as millennials go for alternatives such as AirBnb or hotel points program micro trips. With an abundance of properties, rental options offer less cost and risk than owning in many locations. The TS exit ads dont help either.

The only significant way for MVC to grow is to hit up their large owner base (MVC, Vistana,Hyatt) with upgrades to their points program for access to more properties. This is akin to what DVC is doing with their latest properties. Owners won't lose what they own now, but if you want more properties and flexibility, (or want guaranteed exit) then you need to buy developer.upgrade.


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## LUVourMarriotts

I was just at a presentation, and I asked about the plans related to the ILG purchase.  The salesman told me that MVC *Trust* owners will have booking access into the other properties, but the other properties will not have access into MVC properties, unless they buy DC points.  He said there was some executive meeting just a few weeks ago to finalize all of this, including how many points for each location/view/dates/size.  Supposedly all of this info will be released in the next 2-3 months.  Do I believe it, no.  Once I see proof, I will believe it.


----------



## CPNY

CalGalTraveler said:


> I dont buy that there will be a one way access benefit for existing MVC owners. Does not fit their greedy MO. Why leave money on the table when they have an expensive acquisition to pay for?
> 
> The TS market is saturated and mature. New TS buyers are drying up as millennials go for alternatives such as AirBnb or hotel points program micro trips. With an abundance of properties, rental options hold less cost and risk than owning in many locations. The TS exit ads dont help either.
> 
> The only significant way for MVC to grow is to hit up their large owner base (MVV, Vistana,Hyatt) with upgrades to their points program for access to more properties. This is akin to what DVC is doing with their latest properties. Owners won't lose what they own now, but if you want more properties and flexibility, (or want guaranteed exit) then you need to buy developer.upgrade.


That’s exactly what I’ve been saying but MVC owners don’t see it that way. The entitlement is thick. Why would MVG piss off Vistana owners and ONLY make them pay into a new program? It’s bad business and bad PR. MVC is already a greedy company, one I’m not happy to be part of. But the entitlement of the MVC snob has to end lol


----------



## CPNY

LUVourMarriotts said:


> I was just at a presentation, and I asked about the plans related to the ILG purchase.  The salesman told me that MVC *Trust* owners will have booking access into the other properties, but the other properties will not have access into MVC properties, unless they buy DC points.  He said there was some executive meeting just a few weeks ago to finalize all of this, including how many points for each location/view/dates/size.  Supposedly all of this info will be released in the next 2-3 months.  Do I believe it, no.  Once I see proof, I will believe it.


Omg!!! I wish I had that sales guy. I would have signed right then and there. I actually hope the MVC owner loves their beloved MVC so much they will stay in their resorts. Watch though, everyone who raves about St Kitts will never go back to that dump once they go to the Mexico and St John Properties.


----------



## Luvtoride

CalGalTraveler said:


> I dont buy that there will be a one way access benefit for existing MVC owners. Does not fit their greedy MO. Why leave money on the table when they have an expensive acquisition to pay for?
> 
> The TS market is saturated and mature. New TS buyers are drying up as millennials go for alternatives such as AirBnb or hotel points program micro trips. With an abundance of properties, rental options offer less cost and risk than owning in many locations. The TS exit ads dont help either.
> 
> The only significant way for MVC to grow is to hit up their large owner base (MVC, Vistana,Hyatt) with upgrades to their points program for access to more properties. This is akin to what DVC is doing with their latest properties. Owners won't lose what they own now, but if you want more properties and flexibility, (or want guaranteed exit) then you need to buy developer.upgrade.



CalGal, I think you hit the nail right on the head!  These salespeople (both systems) are between a rock and hard place now until more definitive information about HOW the programs are going to be intertwined come out.  They don't get a "break" from sales goals until the program combination/ changes are made public, they MUST continue to sell anyway they can.  Yes, MVC made this acquisition for the benefit of its shareholders and stakeholders, including all of us owners of both programs.  If the merger/ purchase is to work out for the price paid, they will need to show some significant growth in the coming quarters/ years. 

Having said that, I'm interested in how this will play out but not overly worried or concerned about it.  I think MVC has had a fine track record of expanding the usage options of its offerings beyond booking your week at your home resort or exchanging through Interval.  I've taken owners cruises, I'm doing a Collette tour this year and if in the future I can book another TS resort in a location that MVC doesn't have one, that will be great.  I don't expect any preferential treatment (Or detrimental treatment to Westin/ Sheraton owners) but there will always be those who are happy and unhappy (Do we need to rehash the Marriott/ Starwood loyalty program issues)?

If done properly with thought and market testing (yes, I participated in a market survey test of "Pulse" properties before they were unveiled) I'm sure that MVC/ ILG is capable of putting out a program that would be a win/win for all stakeholders involved and which would encourage current owners as well as new owners to get involved in the revamped vacation program.


----------



## billymach4

bogey21 said:


> I'm no longer a Marriott Owner and am just opining from the peanut gallery.  But my guess (and it is only a guess) is that Marriott will create some sort of enhancement which you will have to buy into to take advantage of.   The way I see it is that what they are after is revenue enhancement which if true, leads me to believe whatever they offer will require a buy-in of some sort...
> 
> George


Winner Winner .. Chicken Dinner!


----------



## dougp26364

Luvtoride said:


> CalGal, I think you hit the nail right on the head!  These salespeople (both systems) are between a rock and hard place now until more definitive information about HOW the programs are going to be intertwined come out.  They don't get a "break" from sales goals until the program combination/ changes are made public, they MUST continue to sell anyway they can.  Yes, MVC made this acquisition for the benefit of its shareholders and stakeholders, including all of us owners of both programs.  If the merger/ purchase is to work out for the price paid, they will need to show some significant growth in the coming quarters/ years.
> 
> Having said that, I'm interested in how this will play out but not overly worried or concerned about it.  I think MVC has had a fine track record of expanding the usage options of its offerings beyond booking your week at your home resort or exchanging through Interval.  I've taken owners cruises, I'm doing a Collette tour this year and if in the future I can book another TS resort in a location that MVC doesn't have one, that will be great.  I don't expect any preferential treatment (Or detrimental treatment to Westin/ Sheraton owners) but there will always be those who are happy and unhappy (Do we need to rehash the Marriott/ Starwood loyalty program issues)?
> 
> If done properly with thought and market testing (yes, I participated in a market survey test of "Pulse" properties before they were unveiled) I'm sure that MVC/ ILG is capable of putting out a program that would be a win/win for all stakeholders involved and which would encourage current owners as well as new owners to get involved in the revamped vacation program.



So here’s a thought. One of the underlying themes of the last few updates was that ALL owners (MVC and Westin/SVN/Hyatt) would need to buy points to play in both pools. They were using that to attempt to leverage me into buying additional MVC trust points, or I wouldn’t be able to book the Westin/SVN inventory.

If that’s what the OP was saying, you need to buy points direct instead of resale, it’s not exactly new news and it’s not exactly a big secrete. That’s news that has been out there for the last couple of years and it’s a stick (or enticement) they’ve been using as a scare tactic. Buy now or be left out.

It might be true, I don’t know or care. At that time my answer was I’m not spending thousands for access to the one resort I’m actually interested in with Hyatt. If the OP purchased on THAT piece of “information” instead of a personal need, we’ll, he got suckered.

If that’s what this thread has been about.... hahahahahahahaha.


----------



## JIMinNC

LUVourMarriotts said:


> I was just at a presentation, and I asked about the plans related to the ILG purchase.  The salesman told me that MVC *Trust* owners will have booking access into the other properties, but the other properties will not have access into MVC properties, unless they buy DC points.  He said there was some executive meeting just a few weeks ago to finalize all of this, including how many points for each location/view/dates/size.  Supposedly all of this info will be released in the next 2-3 months.  Do I believe it, no.  Once I see proof, I will believe it.



My personal opinion only, but my experience has been that MVC sales people often incorrectly use the phrase "Trust Owners" to describe the entire Destination Club Points system, which also includes Enrolled Owners. That happened to me once in a presentation and I stopped him and asked, "Wait, when you say only Trust Owners can do this, are you implying that someone with an enrolled week won't be able to do that?" His reply was something to the effect of, "Of course not. When someone enrolls their week and elects their week for points, those points go into the Trust, so they are the same as a Trust owner because their points are now in the Trust." We on TUG know that is technically not true, because those elected weeks actually go into the DC Exchange, not the Trust. For most owners that is a somewhat irrelevant nuance for most transactions, since the DC Exchange and the Trust work in virtually transparent concert with each other. But it also appears that sales reps also ignore that nuance/complexity in the way they describe the system. The optimist would say that is because they don't want to get into the weeds on the complexity of the system that would make most sales prospects' eyes glaze over. The cynic would say it's because they are selling Trust points and describing it the way they do makes the prospect think they *must* buy Trust points to get that benefit.

Given all that, what you were told doesn't seem to be all that inconsistent with the *speculation* here that the DC will be the vehicle used for any internal exchange. The only disconnect I have with that theory is it would require VSE owners to either buy Trust points or enroll their VSE week (presumably for a fee, as was the case for MVC weeks owners ever since 2010), but that would mean MVC owners would then get access to any VSE weeks that were enrolled by VSE owners without paying anything more for access to those new locations. I can't really see MVC doing something that one-sided. I would think they would want to extract new revenue from both sides of their expanded network.

I think continuing to hear how Sales spins the coming changes will be instructive to a degree, as far as the fact that sometimes they do get nuggets that turn out to be true. But we need to remember is all just rumor and speculation until we get the official word from MVC.


----------



## kds4

dioxide45 said:


> Wait a minute, the first quote here is from the first post in this thread. You certainly were implying that you saw something in writing as it pertains to the integrated product. Now the only thing you saw was regarding a buyback/resignation program? So any integration discussion on your part is pure speculation based on "their lips are moving" and nothing in writing?
> 
> While a resale program of DC points would be good for owners, I just don't see it really ever happening. Back in the weeks days, Marriott would not even resell weeks at a resort if it was still in active sales. What incentive would they have to sell your DC points over their own unless the margin was close to what they would be making on their own product, which is about 50-60%?



We had a discussion about the ILG acquisition and what some of the impacts on Marriott owners going forward will be. As it was a discussion only, everything I have said about the ILG deal is 'speculation'. We also had a discussion regarding upcoming internal changes to the Marriott Destination Points program, (which is why they encouraged me to buy more points as a condition of getting these new benefits). As part of that 2nd discussion, they told me these program changes/added benefits were already documented (for regulatory purposes) and should be formally announced as soon as October (when another points price increase is to also occur).

Since they told me documentation of these new ownership benefits existed, I asked to see proof before I would agree to buy anything because I would not just take their word for it. They agreed and I was shown and allowed to read some Marriott ownership documents that did detail some of the internal program changes/benefits they had been telling me about (and that are referenced generally in my sales contract). Since no one else on TUG has yet stated they have also seen any documentation, I accept my statements on these new owner benefits is speculation also for posting purposes (for now). However, having seen documents that back up what I was told, it's no longer speculation for me. I recommend any Marriott owner that does an owner update in the next couple of months ask about upcoming changes and/or new ownership benefits. Then ask to see documentation of what they tell you. It exists.

As far as why would they institute a buy-back program with lower profit margins, I can think of a few. First, it takes a large bite out of the resale market that has been competing against their direct sale program. Second, it creates a reliable pipeline to refill the points pool (which is finite, unless Marriott builds new properties or continues with an asset lite approach, which with what they have recently spent on acquisitions are both less likely IMHO). Third, it creates an additional new sales angle to sell retail points when owners can be guaranteed an x% return of their initial purchase price. Being able to pitch an exit strategy as part of the entry strategy is huge, again IMHO.


----------



## kds4

CalGalTraveler said:


> I dont buy that there will be a one way access benefit for existing MVC owners. Does not fit their greedy MO. Why leave money on the table when they have an expensive acquisition to pay for?
> 
> The TS market is saturated and mature. New TS buyers are drying up as millennials go for alternatives such as AirBnb or hotel points program micro trips. With an abundance of properties, rental options offer less cost and risk than owning in many locations. The TS exit ads dont help either.
> 
> The only significant way for MVC to grow is to hit up their large owner base (MVC, Vistana,Hyatt) with upgrades to their points program for access to more properties. This is akin to what DVC is doing with their latest properties. Owners won't lose what they own now, but if you want more properties and flexibility, (or want guaranteed exit) then you need to buy developer.upgrade.



Exactly.


----------



## kds4

LUVourMarriotts said:


> I was just at a presentation, and I asked about the plans related to the ILG purchase.  The salesman told me that MVC *Trust* owners will have booking access into the other properties, but the other properties will not have access into MVC properties, unless they buy DC points.  He said there was some executive meeting just a few weeks ago to finalize all of this, including how many points for each location/view/dates/size.  Supposedly all of this info will be released in the next 2-3 months.  Do I believe it, no.  Once I see proof, I will believe it.



This is consistent with what I was told as well, but I didn't see anything in writing about the ILG purchase.


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## pchung6

kds4 said:


> This is consistent with what I was told as well, but I didn't see anything in writing about the ILG purchase.



Please can you just do us a favor and tell us what exactly you saw on that secret document? You are still spinning the answer and not answer our concerns directly. come on man, this is wasting my time.


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## kds4

pchung6 said:


> Please can you just do us a favor and tell us what exactly you saw on that secret document? You are still spinning the answer and not answer our concerns directly. come on man, this is wasting my time.



There is a points buyback program coming for Marriott Destination Club owners.


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## Ken555

pchung6 said:


> Please can you just do us a favor and tell us what exactly you saw on that secret document? You are still spinning the answer and not answer our concerns directly. come on man, this is wasting my time.



The value of TUG went down with this thread. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## kds4

Ken555 said:


> The value of TUG went down with this thread.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



With respect, as a non-Marriott owner, this thread was never directed toward you. Hopefully, for the Marriott owners who are reading this thread (and affected by what it discussed, specifically new benefits for them), there will be some owners with upcoming owner updates that now have specific questions they can raise regarding their own Destination Club portfolios.


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## billymach4

As a Marriott Owner that detests and avoids these sales presentations find this thread equally offensive and full of propaganda. Sorry but that is the way I feel. I myself find that I am playing catch up with the news on Marriott. As stated in my recent posts my other life priorities have kept me away from TUG, timeshares, vacations for the recent past 2 to 3 years. Now I found time to resume timesharing. I will not attend any presentations due to the lies that are spun by the weasels.  My vacation time is not worth the Bull!@#. I have had some rather bad experiences when I confronted the weasels with the truth.

I see no point in your thread!


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## CPNY

kds4 said:


> With respect, as a non-Marriott owner, this thread was never directed toward you. Hopefully, for the Marriott owners who are reading this thread (and affected by what it discussed, specifically new benefits for them), there will be some owners with upcoming owner updates that now have specific questions they can raise regarding their own Destination Club portfolios.


Wellllll technically since you now own us little ole Vistana network, we are all part of the same program. You know the program, the one where you get everything and we have to buy the farm to go sit on a seaweed beach in st Kitts lol.


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## Ken555

kds4 said:


> With respect, as a non-Marriott owner, this thread was never directed toward you. Hopefully, for the Marriott owners who are reading this thread (and affected by what it discussed, specifically new benefits for them), there will be some owners with upcoming owner updates that now have specific questions they can raise regarding their own Destination Club portfolios.



With respect, I’ve stayed at many Marriotts, almost bought one, and now that our programs are combining in some fashion, or so we think, shouldn’t you be more welcoming? I think everyone should visit Vistana resorts, since I know many of them are fantastic and I’m sure you’ll enjoy them, too.

You have posted numerous incomplete posts, ignored questions, and generally encouraged discussion on nothing more than a rumor. As far as questions to ask during sales meetings...that assumes, incorrectly, that accurate information would be given about a future program during such meetings. We all know better than that, and though you’ve been here for a while and obviously know a lot about Marriott...you fell for a sales tactic. End of story. With this in mind, I’ll be the first in this thread to say...

You should rescind. Save your money and buy resale. 

Oh, and you are quite welcome to join us over at the Vistana forum anytime you want to learn about it. We don’t tolerate speculation easily over there, either, so keep that in mind.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Dean

I think it's unlikely to see a program that requires higher VIP levels to buy into.  I could see a change in the level requirements that could be used to entice lower level owners to add on.  Same for other points system owners, they could get credit for what they own but have to add on similar to a non enrolled MVC owner now.  If new qualifications are enacted, it's likely current owners will be grandfathered and unlikely that other system owners will be though it's possible.


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## pchung6

Dean said:


> I think it's unlikely to see a program that requires higher VIP levels to buy into.  I could see a change in the level requirements that could be used to entice lower level owners to add on.  Same for other points system owners, they could get credit for what they own but have to add on similar to a non enrolled MVC owner now.  If new qualifications are enacted, it's likely current owners will be grandfathered and unlikely that other system owners will be though it's possible.



Keep dreaming MVC will let you access VSN for free.  MVC paid few billions to let you in free while the other side has to pay?  This will be the worst PR nightmare and fastest way to offend half side of the customers.  I hope you know timeshare company makes most money from existing customers.  They let Marriott side in for free to access better Westin resorts while charging the Westin/Sheraton side who owns good hotel to access bad Marriott side?  If I'm the CEO, i fire the person came up this idea immediately.


----------



## Dean

pchung6 said:


> Keep dreaming MVC will let you access VSN for free.  MVC paid few billions to let you in free while the other side has to pay?  This will be the worst PR nightmare and fastest way to offend half side of the customers.  I hope you know timeshare company makes most money from existing customers.  They let Marriott side in for free to access better Westin resorts while charging the Westin/Sheraton side who owns good hotel to access bad Marriott side?  If I'm the CEO, i fire the person came up this idea immediately.


If a crossover system happens I think they will likely let higher level members access any hybrid system for free but they may raise the requirements to get there.  They'll likely grandfather those at those higher levels already.


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## JIMinNC

This thread has now hit eight pages in less than three days. I don't have a problem with speculation - it's what we do when we know a change may be coming but we don't know exactly what form that change may take. I also don't have a problem with basing some of that speculation on what is said in sales presentations, because while much of what is said there is designed to sell and create a sense of urgency, in the past, we have gotten some viable hints about what might be coming from what is said by sales. Just recognize it's all speculative until formally announced.

What does bother me about this thread though is the confrontational tone that some have used. I can't understand what is to be gained by coming onto the Marriott board and telling the owners here that our resorts are "garbage" or that the owners act "entitled", unless the real intention is just to raise a ruckus. Doesn't seem productive to me. Both systems have many nice resorts, with Westin maybe having an edge on furnishings, amenities, market positioning, etc. and Marriott having the edge in the number of and diversity of the geographic locations. When looked at in the context of the entire timeshare industry, both systems are top tier and among the best of the breed. I see no reason to be confrontational.

Yes, some Marriott owners have said they think that MVC might allow MVC owners to access VSE without a buy-in, while requiring VSE to buy-in to access MVC. But I didn't sense those opinions were based on any sense of entitlement, but were simply impressions that had been built by MVC salespeople who were trying to sell points and were using the old sales tactic of creating "fear of missing out." I personally expect that both sides will have some "buy-in" to deal with if they want access to the other system(s), but only time will tell the real outcome.

I'm all for speculating to our hearts' content. I would just hope we could find a way to keep it positive and civil and not devolve to the labeling and name calling that happens on some boards, but is so atypical on TUG.


----------



## pchung6

This is my last response to this thread and I am out of here.

I called Marriott gxxbxxx is directly responding to OP and someone consistently stating "we bought you, we are bigger brother, so it is not fair but you VSN people have to buy 4000 points." Also someone posted a list of 50 Marriott resorts and said we have these locations, you VSN people are benefiting from these places. To me, these 2 statements are offending.  It is like going to a cheap $5.99 buffet with 200 items and all taste.... you know or like a professional sport team finally signed a superstar and the next day they said we own you.

My stand is very simple, I own both Marriott and VSN and i do have my preference since I stay at both especially a lot at Marriott for work.  I just want my VSN ownership to be treated nicely and fairly.  In the end, I spent a lot money for these and  these are my home away from home.  Speculation is fine, but please stop hinting these statements above and we can debate whatever we want and as long as you wish.  Before that, I am out.


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## CPNY

Once again, OP agrees with above post from someone else that claims on an uodate they were told MVC owners would have access but VSE would not, OP STATES that is backed up in what he saw. So all of those who accused him of saying that and the rest who defended that he didn’t. We have been vindicated.


pchung6 said:


> This is my last response to this thread and I am out of here.
> 
> I called Marriott gxxbxxx is directly responding to OP and someone consistently stating "we bought you, we are bigger brother, so it is not fair but you VSN people have to buy 4000 points." Also someone posted a list of 50 Marriott resorts and said we have these locations, you VSN people are benefiting from these places. To me, these 2 statements are offending.  It is like going to a cheap $5.99 buffet with 200 items and all taste crap or like a professional sport team finally signed a superstar and the next day they said we own you.
> 
> My stand is very simple, I own both Marriott and VSN and i do have my preference since I stay at both especially a lot at Marriott for work.  I just want my VSN ownership to be treated nicely and fairly.  In the end, I spent a lot money for these and  these are my home away from home.  Speculation is fine, but please stop hinting these statements above and we can debate whatever we want and as long as you wish.  Before that, I am out.



EXACTLY! And yes, there are quite a few MVC who think they are entitled. For example, while giving away my harborside resort, I was asked “how can it trade into Marriott?” I said through II as an exchange, who knows about the future. Her response “good luck, we only stay At MVC, we are typical Marriott SNOBS, good luck” she got one thing right, she was def a snob lol. Her words not mine. Then when you hear things like “we bought Vistana, MVC SHOULD HAVE ACCESS. BUT VSN MUST PAY” you tell me who is entitled lol. (The image one exhibits, is the reality another perceives)


----------



## dougp26364

JIMinNC said:


> This thread has now hit eight pages in less than three days. I don't have a problem with speculation - it's what we do when we know a change may be coming but we don't know exactly what form that change may take. I also don't have a problem with basing some of that speculation on what is said in sales presentations, because while much of what is said there is designed to sell and create a sense of urgency, in the past, we have gotten some viable hints about what might be coming from what is said by sales. Just recognize it's all speculative until formally announced.
> 
> What does bother me about this thread though is the confrontational tone that some have used. I can't understand what is to be gained by coming onto the Marriott board and telling the owners here that our resorts are "garbage" or that the owners act "entitled", unless the real intention is just to raise a ruckus. Doesn't seem productive to me. Both systems have many nice resorts, with Westin maybe having an edge on furnishings, amenities, market positioning, etc. and Marriott having the edge in the number of and diversity of the geographic locations. When looked at in the context of the entire timeshare industry, both systems are top tier and among the best of the breed. I see no reason to be confrontational.
> 
> Yes, some Marriott owners have said they think that MVC might allow MVC owners to access VSE without a buy-in, while requiring VSE to buy-in to access MVC. But I didn't sense those opinions were based on any sense of entitlement, but were simply impressions that had been built by MVC salespeople who were trying to sell points and were using the old sales tactic of creating "fear of missing out." I personally expect that both sides will have some "buy-in" to deal with if they want access to the other system(s), but only time will tell the real outcome.
> 
> I'm all for speculating to our hearts' content. I would just hope we could find a way to keep it positive and civil and not devolve to the labeling and name calling that happens on some boards, but is so atypical on TUG.



I think it’s only one or two, and I suspect it’s anxiety created by going thru a first merger or maybe watching what DRI has done in the past. I understand but it’s unwarranted. 

We’ve taken maybe three tours since the acquisition. What’s been consistent has been the benefit levels will change and it’s best to “buy now” to be grandfathered when the points requirements go up. The other is it will take a “buy in” of trust points to access the Westin/VSN properties when they’re integrated. I’ve heard all sorts of timelines on announcements about the integration that I’ve grown weary of waiting. Every update has told us something different but all have been consistent that Hyatt would be the last piece integrated. Bummer for us because that’s really the only system we’re interested in.

So, how much of this is just sales speak to get existing owners to buy more and how much has a grain of truth to it I can’t say. But it’s really the only consistency thru all of the updates we’ve been too over the last couple of years (has it been that long?). Heck, I really can’t say if it’s been two or three updates since the merger. I think three. One to see what they had to say (nothing substantial) and two because we were traveling with friends and wanted the cash for extra spending on activities we wouldn’t have done otherwise.


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## dougp26364

How about we just stop worrying about requirements that aren’t finalized yet or who’s better? Geez, opinions differ. Both systems are great. Chances are we’ll ALL have an additional buy in to access both systems, MCV as well as SVN owners. That’s just how it goes with these things. I remember when DRI bought Sunterra. For us, as DRI Owner’s to play in the Sunterra pool, we had to pony up a $2,500 joiner fee. Doesn’t RCI require a joiner fee to play in their points program? Didn’t Marriott require weeks based owners pay a fee to “enroll” their weeks in the DC? Would it REALLY surprise anyone if MVC requires their owners and SVN owners to pay a fee or buy new trust points to play? Come on, they’re in this to make money. They think/know they have something owners want and they’re betting they pay for it.


----------



## dougp26364

CPNY said:


> Once again, OP agrees with above post from someone else that claims on an uodate they were told MVC owners would have access but VSE would not, OP STATES that is backed up in what he saw. So all of those who accused him of saying that and the rest who defended that he didn’t. We have been vindicated.
> 
> 
> EXACTLY! And yes, there are quite a few MVC who think they are entitled. For example, while giving away my harborside resort, I was asked “how can it trade into Marriott?” I said through II as an exchange, who knows about the future. Her response “good luck, we only stay At MVC, we are typical Marriott SNOBS, good luck” she got one thing right, she was def a snob lol. Her words not mine. Then when you hear things like “we bought Vistana, MVC SHOULD HAVE ACCESS. BUT VSN MUST PAY” you tell me who is entitled lol. (The image one exhibits, is the reality another perceives)



The OP is quoting, and believing, a SALESMAN for heavens sake. Possibly the LEAST reliable source of information. Stop tilting at windmills. Do you REALLY believe they’ll allow one group free access but charge another? If you do your as big a fool IMHO as anyone else who believes that thought. They’ll charge EVERYONE some sort of entrance fee, both MVC and SVN owners alike. At least it seems to me that’s how it’s always been done. They’ll also try to create a sense of urgency and anxiety to get owners to shell out more money. This is just an old sales ploy and it appears to be working. You seem more than a little anxious and protective about all of this. 

The one thing that “might” be true is that MVC owners who buy developer points post merger will already have paid that fee. I would assume SVN owners that have upgraded post merger would enjoy the same benefit but, not being an SVN owners myself I can’t say what’s being told in those updates. Let’s just say it wouldn’t surprise me if they were saying something similar.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> And yes, there are quite a few MVC who think they are entitled. For example, while giving away my harborside resort, I was asked “how can it trade into Marriott?” I said through II as an exchange, who knows about the future. Her response “good luck, we only stay At MVC, we are typical Marriott SNOBS, good luck” she got one thing right, she was def a snob lol. Her words not mine. Then when you hear things like “we bought Vistana, MVC SHOULD HAVE ACCESS. BUT VSN MUST PAY” you tell me who is entitled lol. (The image one exhibits, is the reality another perceives)



Of course. There are MVC entitled "snobs" who may choose to denigrate other systems and the owners in those systems, but there are also Westin snobs who denigrate other systems and the owners in those systems. That doesn't mean that either are right, and that those opinions represent most owners of that system. Both programs are fine systems with great owners, and while Westin fits some folks better, Marriott may fit others better.

As I said earlier in this thread, even though the Westin/Sheraton locations don't seem to add all that much to what we already have with MVC for our specific, personal travel patterns, I'm sure many, many MVC owners will see benefits and will love the opportunity to sample and stay at the great Westin/Sheraton locations if an internal booking system is developed. We actually would also love to have the _option_ to try some of the beautiful Westin locations too, it's just we probably wouldn't be inclined to pay all that much to do so at this point. And while a couple of the VSE posters in this thread have similarly opined that the additional MVC locations won't really add anything for their travel patterns, that's fine too. There are probably other VSE owners that have always wanted to be able to use their ownership for Aruba, Hilton Head, or one of the other markets where MVC has a presence and VSE doesn't. One size definitely does not fit all, and there's no need for either group of owners to trash the other system just because their own system fits them better. We should all be able to discuss this without resorting to denigrating the other systems/owners.


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## SueDonJ

If history teaches us anything, whenever changes are made in any timeshare system there will be owners who are over-the-moon deleriously happy, owners who walk away however they can all the while ranting and raving about being treated like ATM's, and, everything in between. And here on TUG, we'll dissect it to death in order to try to make whatever happens work for ALL OF US.

_*With my moderator crown on now:*_ If we can't be civil while discussing what MAY happen based on what's learned in a sales presentation from employees who are guaranteed NOT to be in the loop of future developments, the thread will have to be closed. Rein it in, please.


----------



## JIMinNC

dougp26364 said:


> We’ve taken maybe three tours since the acquisition. What’s been consistent has been the benefit levels will change and it’s best to “buy now” to be grandfathered when the points requirements go up. The other is it will take a “buy in” of trust points to access the Westin/VSN properties when they’re integrated. I’ve heard all sorts of timelines on announcements about the integration that I’ve grown weary of waiting. Every update has told us something different but all have been consistent that Hyatt would be the last piece integrated. Bummer for us because that’s really the only system we’re interested in.
> 
> So, how much of this is just sales speak to get existing owners to buy more and how much has a grain of truth to it I can’t say. But it’s really the only consistency thru all of the updates we’ve been too over the last couple of years (has it been that long?). Heck, I really can’t say if it’s been two or three updates since the merger. I think three. One to see what they had to say (nothing substantial) and two because we were traveling with friends and wanted the cash for extra spending on activities we wouldn’t have done otherwise.



Like you, we've been to a couple tours since the acquisition was announced - one Marriott (Hilton Head) and one Westin (Los Cabos). Both sales teams spun the merger in a way that fit their own goals:

Marriott: You need to buy more DC Points to be able to benefit from the expanded resort access.
Westin: You need to buy FlexOptions/StarOptions to access Westin resorts because, at most, there will be a small exchange program between VSE and MVC, with minimal cross-program inventory, and mainly off-season.

I really wouldn't have expected otherwise. Both teams have sales goals to meet until corporate decides whatever they decide to do and implement it. If you think it's tough on us as owners with the uncertainty, put yourselves in their shoes where your livelihood and your family's livelihood is dependent on being able to sell more product. It has to be difficult.


----------



## Ken555

JIMinNC said:


> Both teams have sales goals to meet until corporate decides whatever they decide to do and implement it. If you think it's tough on us as owners with the uncertainty, put yourselves in their shoes where your livelihood and your family's livelihood is dependent on being able to sell more product. It has to be difficult.



What you’re really saying here is the implicit understanding most of us have that the sales teams must lie in order to make a sale. We all know it happens and yet some here, including the OP, somehow think they were told the truth because he saw a paper that looked official. 

I have no illusions that some salespeople will go to extreme lengths to convince a prospect to buy. As we know, if it’s not in the contract it is meaningless. With this in mind, why so many long time TUG members encourage discussion based on what was learned in a sales meeting astounds me.

I am glad to see that many of you are now including the word speculation in your posts. Thank you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## JIMinNC

Ken555 said:


> I have no illusions that some salespeople will go to extreme lengths to convince a prospect to buy. As we know, if it’s not in the contract it is meaningless. With this in mind, why so many long time TUG members encourage discussion based on what was learned in a sales meeting astounds me.



As I've said in a couple of other posts, I think the reason we don't just automatically chalk up every comment about impending program changes that are made by a sales person as BS and not even discuss it is that, in past situations within the Marriott program where changes were coming, those changes have sometimes been hinted at and signaled by things owners have been told in sales presentations. So, I do think it's worthwhile/instructive for TUGgers who attend these presentations to report back about what was said. If we begin to see a consistent pattern at multiple sales offices saying the same thing, it does begin to lend at least some credence to what may be real versus pure speculation. In the end, it's all rumor and speculation until it's official, but sometimes some nuggets of truth do come from these threads, and Lord knows, TUGgers like to speculate about what might happen when we think change may be coming.


----------



## JIMinNC

I'll add one thought that just occurred to me before I go off for a while to do something more productive than speculating about timeshare programs...

The one thing we do know as a fact is what the Marriott Vacations Worldwide CEO said in their last earnings call - that is a factual, legally-binding statement to stock analysts. In that call, he said they were working on an integrated product form that could be leveraged across their different brands. Based on my past experience working in a large company with lots of offices and which also went through a lot of mergers and changes, if the CEO is saying something like that to stock analysts, it is very possible that the sales teams may be privy to a few more details about what might be coming. Those folks have lots of questions too, just like we do. Their questions impact their ability to sell, meet their goals, and feed their families. So, I suspect there is a lot of internal push from below up the management chain for information on what is going to happen. It's probably a stressful time. I would be surprised if they have been told very many details, but the sales teams may have a few more very general nuggets of information about what that "integrated product form" might look like than what was told to the analysts. So again, that's why hearing what owners are being told at different locations can indeed offer some clues as to what might happen. It has in the past.


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## billymach4

JIMinNC said:


> I'll add one thought that just occurred to me before I go off for a while to do something more productive than speculating about timeshare programs...
> 
> The one thing we do know as a fact is what the Marriott Vacations Worldwide CEO said in their last earnings call - that is a factual, legally-binding statement to stock analysts. In that call, he said they were working on an integrated product form that could be leveraged across their different brands. Based on my past experience working in a large company with lots of offices and which also went through a lot of mergers and changes, if the CEO is saying something like that to stock analysts, it is very possible that the sales teams may be privy to a few more details about what might be coming. Those folks have lots of questions too, just like we do. Their questions impact their ability to sell, meet their goals, and feed their families. So, I suspect there is a lot of internal push from below up the management chain for information on what is going to happen. It's probably a stressful time. I would be surprised if they have been told very many details, but the sales teams may have a few more very general nuggets of information about what that "integrated product form" might look like than what was told to the analysts. So again, that's why hearing what owners are being told at different locations can indeed offer some clues as to what might happen. It has in the past.


This sort of reminds me of the spring of 2010.


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## billymach4

I would have to say 2010 was the year of Marriott timeshares. Perhaps 2019 is the sequel.


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## SueDonJ

billymach4 said:


> This sort of reminds me of the spring of 2010.


It reminds me of the few years prior to 6/20/10 when TUG speculation ran the gamut from, "They're going to roll out Points and take our Weeks!" to, "Sales staff lie every time they open their mouths; nothing will happen with Points and we're idiots for giving them any credence at all!"

I'm with Jim here. Based on history AND the fact that tidbits appear in the earnings call, eventually everything under the MVW umbrella will be internally exchangeable to some extent, even if it's simply a preference period like what MVC owners have in II now. But the time to begin believing as gospel what the sales staff say (if ever) won't be until after official corporate statements are issued. In the meantime, put me in the camp of those who LOVE the speculation threads on TUG.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Once again, OP agrees with above post from someone else that claims on an uodate they were told MVC owners would have access but VSE would not, OP STATES that is backed up in what he saw. So all of those who accused him of saying that and the rest who defended that he didn’t. We have been vindicated.


The problem is, unlike it was implied in the first post, the OP saw absolutely nothing in writing about how an integrated program would work or function. It was all based on discussion with the sales rep. Apparently the only thing in writing was about the buyback/resignation/resale program for DC Trust Point and such was also put in their contract. All of which means nothing since the verbiage they quoted promises nothing. If the OP bought points based solely on a possible buyback/resignation/resale program, IMO that was probably not the best decision.



kds4 said:


> None of what I saw involved anything outside Marriott ownerships. T'here was no mention of the ILG acquisition or VSN owners. It was strictly related to enhancements of existing Marriott ownerships (not involving exchanges/other brands). I did not mean to imply that these enhancements are at the expense of any other owners.





kds4 said:


> The documents had nothing to do with the ILG acquisition.





kds4 said:


> In the Miscellaneous Section of my contract it reads: "I acknowledge that Marriott Vacation Club currently intends to provide a resignation/resale program for Vacation Club Points Owners who wish to exit the program in the future."



I am still not sure why in some posts the OP is still implying that they saw something in writing about impending changes?



kds4 said:


> We had a discussion about the ILG acquisition and what some of the impacts on Marriott owners going forward will be. As it was a discussion only, everything I have said about the ILG deal is 'speculation'. We also had a discussion regarding upcoming internal changes to the Marriott Destination Points program, (which is why they encouraged me to buy more points as a condition of getting these new benefits). As part of that 2nd discussion, they told me these program changes/added benefits were already documented (for regulatory purposes) and should be formally announced as soon as October (when another points price increase is to also occur).
> 
> Since they told me documentation of these new ownership benefits existed, I asked to see proof before I would agree to buy anything because I would not just take their word for it. They agreed and I was shown and allowed to read some Marriott ownership documents that did detail some of the internal program changes/benefits they had been telling me about (and that are referenced generally in my sales contract). Since no one else on TUG has yet stated they have also seen any documentation, I accept my statements on these new owner benefits is speculation also for posting purposes (for now). However, having seen documents that back up what I was told, it's no longer speculation for me. I recommend any Marriott owner that does an owner update in the next couple of months ask about upcoming changes and/or new ownership benefits. Then ask to see documentation of what they tell you. It exists.
> 
> As far as why would they institute a buy-back program with lower profit margins, I can think of a few. First, it takes a large bite out of the resale market that has been competing against their direct sale program. Second, it creates a reliable pipeline to refill the points pool (which is finite, unless Marriott builds new properties or continues with an asset lite approach, which with what they have recently spent on acquisitions are both less likely IMHO). Third, it creates an additional new sales angle to sell retail points when owners can be guaranteed an x% return of their initial purchase price. Being able to pitch an exit strategy as part of the entry strategy is huge, again IMHO.


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## dioxide45

@PerryM has to be among us here, no way he would miss a speculation thread like this.


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## billymach4

dioxide45 said:


> @PerryM has to be among us here, no way he would miss a speculation thread like this.


Yep I was thinking about that in the months leading up to and after 6/2010. We need PerryM to support the conspiracy theories.


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## billymach4

Suedonj thanks for keeping the peace on this topic!


----------



## Dean

Went to presentation today.  Told they had just had training and meetings about points charts and many of the points charts have been finalized.  Told to expect something 1st or 2nd quarter of 2020.  Stated that all current DC members would have access to any inventory that was made available without additional cost and that for other acquired systems would have to pay up to get access to DC.  Suggested Hyatt was the most difficult of the systems to work out and was the main holdup at this time.  I was shown some points charts but who knows if they're real or accurate.  Everyone seemed to be on the same page.  The salesperson was new and had just completed training so his information is likely more up to date than most and he likely hasn't learned much for bad habits that aren't directed by the system.  The ultimate info suggested each would keep it's own system and have the option of paying to participate in the DC if they wanted to ante up to do so.  Like 2010, if accurate, it could be the best of both worlds.  For Marriott back then (and now) weeks owners lose essentially nothing if they chose not to participate but have the options of the DC system if they qualify and chose.  As presented today each system would have that luxury as well.  As with the MVC weeks/points discussion, the only real issue where they are to where they are going (possibly) would be that of availability and inventory.  My sense was this is really going to happen but I think we have to not get too excited or worried at this point.  It was also suggested that the Hyatt's in Key West might be rebranded, possibly to MVC.  We'll see what does and does not happen.


----------



## Fasttr

Dean said:


> Went to presentation today.  Told they had just had training and meetings about points charts and many of the points charts have been finalized.  Told to expect something 1st or 2nd quarter of 2020.  Stated that all current DC members would have access to any inventory that was made available without additional cost and that for other acquired systems would have to pay up to get access to DC.  Suggested Hyatt was the most difficult of the systems to work out and was the main holdup at this time.  I was shown some points charts but who knows if they're real or accurate.  Everyone seemed to be on the same page.  The salesperson was new and had just completed training so his information is likely more up to date than most and he likely hasn't learned much for bad habits that aren't directed by the system.  The ultimate info suggested each would keep it's own system and have the option of paying to participate in the DC if they wanted to ante up to do so.  Like 2010, if accurate, it could be the best of both worlds.  For Marriott back then (and now) weeks owners lose essentially nothing if they chose not to participate but have the options of the DC system if they qualify and chose.  As presented today each system would have that luxury as well.  As with the MVC weeks/points discussion, the only real issue where they are to where they are going (possibly) would be that of availability and inventory.  My sense was this is really going to happen but I think we have to not get too excited or worried at this point.  It was also suggested that the Hyatt's in Key West might be rebranded, possibly to MVC.  We'll see what does and does not happen.


Curious if under this scenario, they will draw a new line in the sand to allow post 2010 weeks to be enrolled for a fee if acquired before a new line in the sand date?


----------



## Dean

Fasttr said:


> Curious if under this scenario, they will draw a new line in the sand to allow post 2010 weeks to be enrolled for a fee if acquired before a new line in the sand date?


Unknown, for what it’s worth, I was assured that there would be no additional qualifications to any DC owners to access the inventory that ends up crossing over. Who knows if that’s accurate but I suspect it is at least to some degree. It does make sense that for higher levels this would be the case.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

Fasttr said:


> Curious if under this scenario, they will draw a new line in the sand to allow post 2010 weeks to be enrolled for a fee if acquired before a new line in the sand date?





Well, if there's some money to somehow be made by mother Marriott I would bet you can count on it!




.


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## JIMinNC

Dean said:


> Went to presentation today.  Told they had just had training and meetings about points charts and many of the points charts have been finalized.  Told to expect something 1st or 2nd quarter of 2020.  Stated that all current DC members would have access to any inventory that was made available without additional cost and that for other acquired systems would have to pay up to get access to DC.  Suggested Hyatt was the most difficult of the systems to work out and was the main holdup at this time.  I was shown some points charts but who knows if they're real or accurate.  Everyone seemed to be on the same page.  The salesperson was new and had just completed training so his information is likely more up to date than most and he likely hasn't learned much for bad habits that aren't directed by the system.  The ultimate info suggested each would keep it's own system and have the option of paying to participate in the DC if they wanted to ante up to do so.  Like 2010, if accurate, it could be the best of both worlds.  For Marriott back then (and now) weeks owners lose essentially nothing if they chose not to participate but have the options of the DC system if they qualify and chose.  As presented today each system would have that luxury as well.  As with the MVC weeks/points discussion, the only real issue where they are to where they are going (possibly) would be that of availability and inventory.  My sense was this is really going to happen but I think we have to not get too excited or worried at this point.  It was also suggested that the Hyatt's in Key West might be rebranded, possibly to MVC.  We'll see what does and does not happen.



This absolutely would make some sense as you have described it, and might be the fairest way to move forward to put everyone on equal footing. Just speculation, of course, but if what you were told is actually true, here could be the result:

1) Marriott legacy weeks owners were given the opportunity in 2010 to enroll their week in the points system by paying a one-time fee. Both developer-purchased weeks and resale weeks bought prior to 6/20/2010 were extended this offer. Others who were MVC owners at that time will have to chime in with specifics, but somehow I remember reading it was $595 for a limited time and then it went up to a higher amount. They were also given the opportunity to buy DC Trust points at any time if they so choose. People who are new to Marriott since 2010 either paid full-boat to MVC to buy DC Points (or paid MVC the junk fees to activate their resale points), or if they bought post-2010 resale weeks, still remain outside of the DC unless they have subsequently bought DC points to enroll their week(s). So those newer DC members have either paid up already as well by buying developer points or paying MVC junk fees, or will not have access to VSE inventory since their weeks are not part of the DC.

2) It would thus make sense, and seem to be fair, to extend the same fee-based enrollment opportunity to Vistana Mandatory/Voluntary weeks owners for any week - developer or resale - bought prior to some cutoff point. I would expect that cutoff point would be some date close to the date the public announcement is finally made. Since the Mandatory/Voluntary distinction is specific to the VSN system, as long as that system remains in place for internal VSN exchanges, that distinction might not matter for DC enrollment, which would presumably be an overlay on top of VSN just as the DC is an overlay on top of the MVC legacy weeks system. Since it's been 10 years since the DC, I would expect the enrollment fees for VSE owners to be a little higher, adjusted for 10 years of price increases. Based on what you were told, it sounds like they might even want to include Hyatt in this if the thorny contract issues can be worked out with Hyatt Hotels. Of course, any VSE (or Hyatt) owner could buy DC Trust Points at any time to supplement their enrolled points if they chose to do so. Only weeks that VSE (and Hyatt) owners choose to enroll (and subsequently elect for points) and unsold developer inventory would be available to the DC for cross-program bookings.

3) They would have to figure out how to integrate the Westin, Sheraton, Aventuras, and Nanea Flex systems (which is a complexity they didn't have to deal with in 2010), but I assume that could be done through some FlexOptions-to-DC Points conversion ratio and a corresponding one-time enrollment fee for those programs. Just merging those Trust pools into the DC Trust would seem to maybe be simpler for the company, but I would suspect there are probably legal/program rules issues that might prevent that. Just a guess. The key question might be will they keep selling the various FlexOptions at the legacy VSE resorts or just put all unsold inventory into the DC Trust. If the latter, then the current legacy VSN systems would essentially become just like the current legacy MVC weeks program - programs that remain in place with all the previous rules and inventory, but with no new inventory being added and no more sales.

So, if this is indeed the approach they choose, then that might explain why it actually might make sense that MVC owners would not have to pay up again. MVC owners already *did* pay-up in 2010 or subsequently to enroll in the DC, so no need to pay again. VSE owners would just now be given the same enrollment opportunity for the same kind of fee.

In thinking about Fasttr's question just above, if they take this approach, I would not expect them to allow MVC post-6/2010 weeks to enroll without the current promotional requirement to buy a bucket of points. I would suspect their opinion would be that boat has already sailed for MVC owners, so either buy points or be content with an unenrolled week. I can't see a reason why they would go backwards and extend that option to MVC post-2010 resale owners - even though I would absolutely *love* it if they did.


----------



## SteelerGal

This has been an insightful thread.  Being a VSN/Hyatt owner, I am always looking for updates as well as studying the future possibilities how an overlay would be introduced.  Hopefully 1st Qtr 2020, the Speculation will be put to bed.  In the meantime, I will enjoy our planned 2019 vacations and continue planning for 2020.


----------



## GregT

Dean said:


> Stated that all current DC members would have access to any inventory that was made available without additional cost and that for other acquired systems would have to pay up to get access to DC.
> 
> Suggested Hyatt was the most difficult of the systems to work out and was the main holdup at this time.
> 
> Each would keep it's own system and have the option of paying to participate in the DC if they wanted to ante up to do so.



Dean,

Thank you for posting what you heard, I find it interesting and I've extracted the three key comments (to me, at least).  What you've described seems consistent with what we have speculated, and would not be harmful to VSN owners or MVC owners, as their existing systems remain intact (with current rules) and there becomes a (slow?) cross-pollination of the two systems.    I find the words "access to any inventory that was made available" to be interesting -- will be curious what availability really means.

I recall spending (wasting?) countless hours trying to figure how Marriott was loading the Exchange with inventory from the Trust and making it available to point reservations.   Maybe it's coming again?    

Thanks again for posting.

Best,

Greg


----------



## JIMinNC

GregT said:


> I find the words "access to any inventory that was made available" to be interesting -- will be curious what availability really means.



Greg,

I interpreted that phrase to mean inventory that VSN owners chose to enroll and then elect for DC Points. Meaning that DC owners would not have full access to VSN inventory, just that portion that is enrolled/elected. Same as DC owners don't have access to unenrolled/unelected weeks in the current MVC system. That's how I read it.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> Greg,
> 
> I interpreted that phrase to mean inventory that VSN owners chose to enroll and then elect for DC Points. Meaning that DC owners would not have full access to VSN inventory, just that portion that is enrolled/elected. Same as DC owners don't have access to unenrolled/unelected weeks in the current MVC system. That's how I read it.


Or possibly the inventory they are beginning to take back in order the sell their flex plans. It has been very recent that they started to a Vistana deedback program. They are only taking certain resorts it seems. It makes sense. I wouldn’t mind paying a small fee to enroll mandatory deeds into the program to cross book, and by a small fee I mean what they offered the MVC deeded weeks at the time you spoke of. I can’t see myself spending tens of thousands of dollars to enroll.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> This absolutely would make some sense as you have described it, and might be the fairest way to move forward to put everyone on equal footing. Just speculation, of course, but if what you were told is actually true, here could be the result:
> 
> 1) Marriott legacy weeks owners were given the opportunity in 2010 to enroll their week in the points system by paying a one-time fee. Both developer-purchased weeks and resale weeks bought prior to 6/20/2010 were extended this offer. Others who were MVC owners at that time will have to chime in with specifics, but somehow I remember reading it was $595 for a limited time and then it went up to a higher amount. They were also given the opportunity to buy DC Trust points at any time if they so choose. People who are new to Marriott since 2010 either paid full-boat to MVC to buy DC Points (or paid MVC the junk fees to activate their resale points), or if they bought post-2010 resale weeks, still remain outside of the DC unless they have subsequently bought DC points to enroll their week(s). So those newer DC members have either paid up already as well by buying developer points or paying MVC junk fees, or will not have access to VSE inventory since their weeks are not part of the DC.
> 
> 2) It would thus make sense, and seem to be fair, to extend the same fee-based enrollment opportunity to Vistana Mandatory/Voluntary weeks owners for any week - developer or resale - bought prior to some cutoff point. I would expect that cutoff point would be some date close to the date the public announcement is finally made. Since the Mandatory/Voluntary distinction is specific to the VSN system, as long as that system remains in place for internal VSN exchanges, that distinction might not matter for DC enrollment, which would presumably be an overlay on top of VSN just as the DC is an overlay on top of the MVC legacy weeks system. Since it's been 10 years since the DC, I would expect the enrollment fees for VSE owners to be a little higher, adjusted for 10 years of price increases. Based on what you were told, it sounds like they might even want to include Hyatt in this if the thorny contract issues can be worked out with Hyatt Hotels. Of course, any VSE (or Hyatt) owner could buy DC Trust Points at any time to supplement their enrolled points if they chose to do so. Only weeks that VSE (and Hyatt) owners choose to enroll (and subsequently elect for points) and unsold developer inventory would be available to the DC for cross-program bookings.
> 
> 3) They would have to figure out how to integrate the Westin, Sheraton, Aventuras, and Nanea Flex systems (which is a complexity they didn't have to deal with in 2010), but I assume that could be done through some FlexOptions-to-DC Points conversion ratio and a corresponding one-time enrollment fee for those programs. Just merging those Trust pools into the DC Trust would seem to maybe be simpler for the company, but I would suspect there are probably legal/program rules issues that might prevent that. Just a guess. The key question might be will they keep selling the various FlexOptions at the legacy VSE resorts or just put all unsold inventory into the DC Trust. If the latter, then the current legacy VSN systems would essentially become just like the current legacy MVC weeks program - programs that remain in place with all the previous rules and inventory, but with no new inventory being added and no more sales.
> 
> So, if this is indeed the approach they choose, then that might explain why it actually might make sense that MVC owners would not have to pay up again. MVC owners already *did* pay-up in 2010 or subsequently to enroll in the DC, so no need to pay again. VSE owners would just now be given the same enrollment opportunity for the same kind of fee.
> 
> In thinking about Fasttr's question just above, if they take this approach, I would not expect them to allow MVC post-6/2010 weeks to enroll without the current promotional requirement to buy a bucket of points. I would suspect their opinion would be that boat has already sailed for MVC owners, so either buy points or be content with an unenrolled week. I can't see a reason why they would go backwards and extend that option to MVC post-2010 resale owners - even though I would absolutely *love* it if they did.



They could also just extend the cross booking to those who are enrolled in the VSN but not through resale. They could always just put in the rules the week must be enrolled in the bonvoy conversion program which means it was a developer purchase, or those developer purchases enrolled would have a small fee to enroll much like the MVC owners had back then. If resale owners in a mandatory deed are not enrolled in bonvoy then they would have to buy more to make their deed retro back into the program. They do that now for voluntary resorts. There are plenty of VSN owners who own from resale and it’s an easy way to upsell. I’d consider it but not heavily.


----------



## ocdb8r

JIMinNC said:


> 3) They would have to figure out how to integrate the Westin, Sheraton, Aventuras, and Nanea Flex systems (which is a complexity they didn't have to deal with in 2010), but I assume that could be done through some FlexOptions-to-DC Points conversion ratio and a corresponding one-time enrollment fee for those programs. Just merging those Trust pools into the DC Trust would seem to maybe be simpler for the company, but I would suspect there are probably legal/program rules issues that might prevent that. Just a guess. The key question might be will they keep selling the various FlexOptions at the legacy VSE resorts or just put all unsold inventory into the DC Trust. If the latter, then the current legacy VSN systems would essentially become just like the current legacy MVC weeks program - programs that remain in place with all the previous rules and inventory, but with no new inventory being added and no more sales.



As a VSN owner, this is the big question mark.  We had an extensive conversation about this on the VSN forum and much centered around what sort of DC points we would be offered if we elected to turn in our week in any given year.  The issue with a FlexOptions-to-DC Points conversion ratio is that any fixed ratio poses a few possible problems: a) if the ratio is the same for both flexOption owners and weeks owners, you have a massive mismatch in values for resorts similar to MVC (i.e. the Arizona and CA desert resorts are effectively valued the same as the Hawaii and Caribbean resorts in VSN, whereas in DC the values were based on expected demand when the DC was introduced); b) if you treat weeks owners and flexOptions owners differently (say by offering flexOption owners a fixed exchange rate and weeks owners a rate based on the week owned) you end up with a very complex system with incredibly varied exchange rates (perhaps MVC can manage this, but I think it would possibly limit exchange activity); and c) the issue with placing unsold inventory in the DC system is that the CCRs of VSN "Mandatory Resorts" have the VSN written into their byelaws - meaning they MUST stay in VSN....I think it would be very tricky to also dump them into DC and legally/effectively manage inventory.

Bottom line, LOTS of complexity that I am very curious to see how MVC works out.  I have no doubt they will (or have) sorted something and (aside from skim) I am impressed with the relative simplicity with which MVC has managed the DC transition...but this is a much more complex tale.  SVN and Hyatt both have existing points overlays that create complexity that didn't exist when the DC was introduced.  I know some have said DC will just be another "option" for SVN and Hyatt owners and therefore MVC can make whatever rules they want.  However, MVC only makes money by getting people to actually participate (by exchanging) and by buying more points - that's only going to happen if the system is attractive to a large portion of owners.  Finally, I think the ILG portfolio has already extracted about as much as possible in "fees" - there are already many examples where using your own week or exchanging makes little economic sense compared to renting...tipping the scales even further with an additional set of exchange fees to pay may just be too much.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> They could also just extend the cross booking to those who are enrolled in the VSN but not through resale. They could always just put in the rules the week must be enrolled in the bonvoy conversion program which means it was a developer purchase, or those developer purchases enrolled would have a small fee to enroll much like the MVC owners had back then. If resale owners in a mandatory deed are not enrolled in bonvoy then they would have to buy more to make their deed retro back into the program. They do that now for voluntary resorts. There are plenty of VSN owners who own from resale and it’s an easy way to upsell. I’d consider it but not heavily.



I don't think Bonvoy will be involved at all since that is only relevant if you want to convert your timeshare points to hotel points. Based on what Dean and others have been told, this will be all about Destination Club points conversions, not Bonvoy.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> Or possibly the inventory they are beginning to take back in order the sell their flex plans. It has been very recent that they started to a Vistana deedback program. They are only taking certain resorts it seems. It makes sense. I wouldn’t mind paying a small fee to enroll mandatory deeds into the program to cross book, and by a small fee I mean what they offered the MVC deeded weeks at the time you spoke of. I can’t see myself spending tens of thousands of dollars to enroll.



I agree, deed backs could possibly come into play in addition to any enrolled weeks. I think the big unanswered question is whether they will continue to sell VSN Options or not. If they keep those sales active, I think they will need the buybacks to continue to populate the VSN Flex pools and may not automatically put those the the Destination Club Trust. But if they decide to sunset any new sales of VSN and move all sales offices to sales of DC Trust points, then I think any unsold inventory and buybacks would go into the DC Trust. Still a lot of unanswered questions to speculate about.

If they want to have any chance of getting VSN inventory into the DC, I think they absolutely have to offer a reasonable fee-based enrollment option like they offered in 2010. Otherwise, I think the cross-pollination will be so exceedingly slow as to be almost irrelevant.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> I don't think Bonvoy will be involved at all since that is only relevant if you want to convert your timeshare points to hotel points. Based on what Dean and others have been told, this will be all about Destination Club points conversions, not Bonvoy.


I understand that. But for VSN owners, if you are able to enroll your points into bonvoy it means you purchased through a developer. You lose that benefit on a resale, whether or not it’s a voluntary or mandatory deed, unless you retro that resale with an additional developer purchase. It would just be a way to offer full price payers a less expensive “buy in” on the VSE side. Essentially making resale VSE owners having to buy another developer purchase either in a flex program or Destination points. I think that’s fair, I purchased developer and I’d be miffed if i have to purchase another developer purchase rather than a smaller fee to enroll that unit. When it comes to my resale purchases I would expect to have to “retro” back in or enroll in the program with a developer purchase or resale paying their insane enrollment fees. I was suggesting just using the bonvoy enrollment as a caveat to getting “into” speculated program.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> I agree, deed backs could possibly come into play in addition to any enrolled weeks. I think the big unanswered question is whether they will continue to sell VSN Options or not. If they keep those sales active, I think they will need the buybacks to continue to populate the VSN Flex pools and may not automatically put those the the Destination Club Trust. But if they decide to sunset any new sales of VSN and move all sales offices to sales of DC Trust points, then I think any unsold inventory and buybacks would go into the DC Trust. Still a lot of unanswered questions to speculate about.


Good points. Who knows right? It’s all speculation they could continue to sell flex, offer lower priced to the entry level new owner who may find value in just a small selection of resorts, keep them at the sales table a bit longer so you can show them why it makes more sense to spend another 10K to get the whole Shabang lol


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> I understand that. But for VSN owners, if you are able to enroll your points into bonvoy it means you purchased through a developer. You lose that benefit on a resale, whether or not it’s a voluntary or mandatory deed, unless you retro that resale with an additional developer purchase. It would just be a way to offer full price payers a less expensive “buy in” on the VSE side. Essentially making resale VSE owners having to buy another developer purchase either in a flex program or Destination points. I think that’s fair, I purchased developer and I’d be miffed if i have to purchase another developer purchase rather than a smaller fee to enroll that unit. When it comes to my resale purchases I would expect to have to “retro” back in or enroll in the program with a developer purchase or resale paying their insane enrollment fees. I was suggesting just using the bonvoy enrollment as a caveat to getting “into” speculated program.





CPNY said:


> Good points. Who knows right? It’s all speculation they could continue to sell flex, offer lower priced to the entry level new owner who may find value in just a small selection of resorts, keep them at the sales table a bit longer so you can show them why it makes more sense to spend another 10K to get the whole Shabang lol



I think a lot of these questions come back to how motivated they are going to be to get cross-pollinated inventory into the system. In 2010, they were very motivated to get quality inventory into their new points system. At the outset, all they had were unsold MVC weeks (mainly not peak demand weeks). The initial high-season weeks in the DC were primarily limited to new resorts that had more recently started sales. So, they needed good inventory for the points system and made the decision to offer inexpensive fee-based enrollment to both developer-purchased and resale MVC weeks. As I recall reading (I wasn't an MVC owner in 2010), the fee for resale weeks was higher than developer weeks, but still reasonable. That was a fantastic deal for folks who owned a lot of cheap resale weeks. So, if they are equally motivated to get VSN inventory into the DC, I think they might make it easy for VSN owners to make that call. But, I agree that this time they could make the decision not to extend the cheap enrollment offer to resales and require that they buy a bucket of points, just like they require to enroll post-2010 MVC resale weeks. But as I said above, unless they offer a reasonable cost option to enroll, I think the cross-pollination will be very, very slow.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> I think a lot of these questions come back to how motivated they are going to be to get cross-pollinated inventory into the system. In 2010, they were very motivated to get quality inventory into their new points system. At the outset, all they had were unsold MVC weeks (mainly not peak demand weeks). The initial high-season weeks in the DC were primarily limited to new resorts that had more recently started sales. So, they needed good inventory for the points system and made the decision to offer inexpensive fee-based enrollment to both developer-purchased and resale MVC weeks. As I recall reading (I wasn't an MVC owner in 2010), the fee for resale weeks was higher than developer weeks, but still reasonable. That was a fantastic deal for folks who owned a lot of cheap resale weeks. So, if they are equally motivated to get VSN inventory into the DC, I think they might make it easy for VSN owners to make that call. But, I agree that this time they could make the decision not to extend the cheap enrollment offer to resales and require that they buy a bucket of points, just like they require to enroll post-2010 MVC resale weeks. But as I said above, unless they offer a reasonable cost option to enroll, I think the cross-pollination will be very, very slow.


Agree with you. Especially on the slow cross pollination if the buy in is higher. I can say they were offering me 22k for my  mandatory deed to buy into flex. Never heard that before. We shall see. I can’t see myself spending a ton to buy in. For what i would spend upfront, I can rent weeks on redweek anywhere and not be tied down to any program. It makes me wonder why I bother owning in the first place. I generally have my favorite resorts and tend to go back. I see rentals cheaper than my maint fees.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> I think a lot of these questions come back to how motivated they are going to be to get cross-pollinated inventory into the system. In 2010, they were very motivated to get quality inventory into their new points system. At the outset, all they had were unsold MVC weeks (mainly not peak demand weeks). The initial high-season weeks in the DC were primarily limited to new resorts that had more recently started sales. So, they needed good inventory for the points system and made the decision to offer inexpensive fee-based enrollment to both developer-purchased and resale MVC weeks. As I recall reading (I wasn't an MVC owner in 2010), the fee for resale weeks was higher than developer weeks, but still reasonable. That was a fantastic deal for folks who owned a lot of cheap resale weeks. So, if they are equally motivated to get VSN inventory into the DC, I think they might make it easy for VSN owners to make that call. But, I agree that this time they could make the decision not to extend the cheap enrollment offer to resales and require that they buy a bucket of points, just like they require to enroll post-2010 MVC resale weeks. But as I said above, unless they offer a reasonable cost option to enroll, I think the cross-pollination will be very, very slow.



We may see them allowing flex owners a much cheaper buy in than say a deeded developer purchase from years ago. Obviously there is a conversion to worry about. Unless they completely revamp the options and points and have one chart which makes this difficult and usually never equal imo. I’d like to see how that shakes out if they did that. Is 1000 DP worth 25,000 star options? If I have 100,000 staroptions do I get 4000DP? It’s going to be interesting to see how this works out


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> I think a lot of these questions come back to how motivated they are going to be to get cross-pollinated inventory into the system. In 2010, they were very motivated to get quality inventory into their new points system. At the outset, all they had were unsold MVC weeks (mainly not peak demand weeks). The initial high-season weeks in the DC were primarily limited to new resorts that had more recently started sales. So, they needed good inventory for the points system and made the decision to offer inexpensive fee-based enrollment to both developer-purchased and resale MVC weeks. As I recall reading (I wasn't an MVC owner in 2010), the fee for resale weeks was higher than developer weeks, but still reasonable. That was a fantastic deal for folks who owned a lot of cheap resale weeks. So, if they are equally motivated to get VSN inventory into the DC, I think they might make it easy for VSN owners to make that call. But, I agree that this time they could make the decision not to extend the cheap enrollment offer to resales and require that they buy a bucket of points, just like they require to enroll post-2010 MVC resale weeks. But as I said above, unless they offer a reasonable cost option to enroll, I think the cross-pollination will be very, very slow.


Just realized AA flying direct to Aruba year round from NYC, MAYBE I will rethink buying In for Aruba Ocean Club lol


----------



## MALC9990

kds4 said:


> No new restrictions. The opposite actually. There will be new options to use Marriott Destination Points. Existing usage options for resale points remain unchanged, from what I read. However, to 'unlock' the new uses for existing enrolled weeks/points, you have to buy a minimal number of additional points. It is a spin on the buy points to enroll weeks we former legacy owners did years ago to have the conversion to points option for our weeks. Marriott's new options to use DPs and enrolled weeks requires a new developer points purchase, but everything else you already own (X enrolled weeks/ X number of DPs) will also be enrolled/eligible for the new usage option as a result. If you are strictly a legacy (weeks) owner, this will not apply. It is for enrolled owners/DP owners.


----------



## GregT

I would speculate that there will be a reasonable fee, similar to 2010, to enroll.  I further speculate that voluntary VSN will be allowed to enroll, creating an incentive for WPORV, WLR, and Certain WSJ owners to have a reason to be attracted to DC.   Those are great properties and would help the cross-pollination process and Marriott wants those units accessible to DC.

Interestingly, I suspect Voluntary owners will be targeted for new point sales because they are the most similar to the pre-2010 Marriott owner in terms of existing alternatives (basically, use/II/rent).

Mandatory owners have less use for DC because StarOptions already rock.  I think I will always be able to book WPORV with SO’s because a lot of owners will never be interested in paying anything to Marriott.  I still meet Marriott owners who don’t want to talk about points and are firm they don’t want to give Marriott any money.

We will see - I think 30:1 will be the exchange ratio if it goes to a StarOptions/DC points exchange because it gives an 81K owner enough points to book a 1BR in Aruba and a 148.1K owner enough to book a 2BR - again, I think Aruba will be the Rosetta Stone.

All my speculation of course, but will be interesting to watch and I think will present attractive alternatives to both parties.

Best,

Greg


----------



## pchung6

As VSE owner, I see no incentive to enroll my WKORVN OF to DC points.  I just keep booking my resort at 12 months mark or I just rent it out.  For my SVV week, I might consider to enroll if the price is right.  If enrollment fee is not reasonable, I just keep using my SVV 81k SO points at Westin Maui or Westin Princeville, Westin Cancun, Westin St John, or low season Westin Palm Springs for 25k points/week as usual. I really don't need any Marriott resorts if their offer isn't right.


----------



## GregT

pchung6 said:


> As VSE owner, I see no incentive to enroll my WKORVN OF to DC points.  I just keep booking my resort at 12 months mark or I just rent it out.  For my SVV week, I might consider to enroll if the price is right.  If enrollment fee is not reasonable, I just keep using my SVV 81k SO points at Westin Maui or Westin Princeville, Westin Cancun, Westin St John, or low season Westin Palm Springs for 25k points/week as usual. I really don't need any Marriott resorts if their offer isn't right.



I agree -- you are at the top of the ladder with your WKORV OF -- I am the same with my Maui Ocean Club 3BR's -- I enrolled them but it is incredibly rare that I redeem even one of them for points -- they are much more valuable as rentals or personal use.

It also makes sense that your mandatory SVV may be more valuable within VSN than it is to DC and you may be able to satisfy all of your travel needs outside of DC.  However, Marriott is smart and knows that you don't need DC and I think they will offer you a "tolerable" fee to enroll -- something like $2K - $3K to enroll both weeks?  (total speculation -- but consistent with 2010 enrollment costs)

Enrolling has a value because even if you never redeem your own week, you can rent DC points from other owners and use their points to go wherever you want.   I've rented something like 25,000 points over the last 8 years and it is terrific.  This is perhaps my favorite thing about the entire DC system (and the primary reason I enrolled back in 2010).  I wish I could rent HGVC points or StarOptions, and love that I can rent Marriott points and Worldmark credits.

Will be interesting to see what comes from this.

Best,

Greg


----------



## JIMinNC

ocdb8r said:


> a) if the ratio is the same for both flexOption owners and weeks owners, you have a massive mismatch in values for resorts similar to MVC (i.e. the Arizona and CA desert resorts are effectively valued the same as the Hawaii and Caribbean resorts in VSN, whereas in DC the values were based on expected demand when the DC was introduced); b) if you treat weeks owners and flexOptions owners differently (say by offering flexOption owners a fixed exchange rate and weeks owners a rate based on the week owned) you end up with a very complex system with incredibly varied exchange rates (perhaps MVC can manage this, but I think it would possibly limit exchange activity);



If you look at the way MVC designed the DC, they have never shied away from complexity, so my bet would be their choice will be (b). I think the mis-match in value that you note in (a) might create too many exchange rate inequity issues, and might dissuade them from taking that approach. 



ocdb8r said:


> c) the issue with placing unsold inventory in the DC system is that the CCRs of VSN "Mandatory Resorts" have the VSN written into their byelaws - meaning they MUST stay in VSN....I think it would be very tricky to also dump them into DC and legally/effectively manage inventory.



This is a *very* important point. If all Mandatory Resorts must be in VSN by the CCRs, then I agree that they will probably have no option to put those weeks into the DC Trust. To be accessible by the DC, they would have to be co-mingled in the DC Exchange just like other enrolled weeks. Does VSE have the right in the CCRs to deposit unsold Mandatory weeks with II (thus taking them out of the VSN pool)? If so, they could probably designate the DC Exchange as another exchange program and thus have the right to designate some portion of their unsold inventory to VSN and another portion to the DC Exchange (and presumably maybe another portion to II). I will predict that if this is the case, there will be suspicion/complaints/screams that Marriott is taking inventory out of VSN and giving it to the DC, thus hurting VSN owners. That's what happened when the DC was first introduced - people were convinced MVC was manipulating inventory to benefit the DC at the expense of the legacy Weeks system.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

JIMinNC said:


> This absolutely would make some sense as you have described it, and might be the fairest way to move forward to put everyone on equal footing. Just speculation, of course, but if what you were told is actually true, here could be the result:
> 
> 1) Marriott legacy weeks owners were given the opportunity in 2010 to enroll their week in the points system by paying a one-time fee. Both developer-purchased weeks and resale weeks bought prior to 6/20/2010 were extended this offer. Others who were MVC owners at that time will have to chime in with specifics, but somehow I remember reading it was $595 for a limited time and then it went up to a higher amount. They were also given the opportunity to buy DC Trust points at any time if they so choose. People who are new to Marriott since 2010 either paid full-boat to MVC to buy DC Points (or paid MVC the junk fees to activate their resale points), or if they bought post-2010 resale weeks, still remain outside of the DC unless they have subsequently bought DC points to enroll their week(s). So those newer DC members have either paid up already as well by buying developer points or paying MVC junk fees, or will not have access to VSE inventory since their weeks are not part of the DC.
> 
> 2) It would thus make sense, and seem to be fair, to extend the same fee-based enrollment opportunity to Vistana Mandatory/Voluntary weeks owners for any week - developer or resale - bought prior to some cutoff point. I would expect that cutoff point would be some date close to the date the public announcement is finally made. Since the Mandatory/Voluntary distinction is specific to the VSN system, as long as that system remains in place for internal VSN exchanges, that distinction might not matter for DC enrollment, which would presumably be an overlay on top of VSN just as the DC is an overlay on top of the MVC legacy weeks system. Since it's been 10 years since the DC, I would expect the enrollment fees for VSE owners to be a little higher, adjusted for 10 years of price increases. Based on what you were told, it sounds like they might even want to include Hyatt in this if the thorny contract issues can be worked out with Hyatt Hotels. Of course, any VSE (or Hyatt) owner could buy DC Trust Points at any time to supplement their enrolled points if they chose to do so. Only weeks that VSE (and Hyatt) owners choose to enroll (and subsequently elect for points) and unsold developer inventory would be available to the DC for cross-program bookings.
> 
> 3) They would have to figure out how to integrate the Westin, Sheraton, Aventuras, and Nanea Flex systems (which is a complexity they didn't have to deal with in 2010), but I assume that could be done through some FlexOptions-to-DC Points conversion ratio and a corresponding one-time enrollment fee for those programs. Just merging those Trust pools into the DC Trust would seem to maybe be simpler for the company, but I would suspect there are probably legal/program rules issues that might prevent that. Just a guess. The key question might be will they keep selling the various FlexOptions at the legacy VSE resorts or just put all unsold inventory into the DC Trust. If the latter, then the current legacy VSN systems would essentially become just like the current legacy MVC weeks program - programs that remain in place with all the previous rules and inventory, but with no new inventory being added and no more sales.
> 
> So, if this is indeed the approach they choose, then that might explain why it actually might make sense that MVC owners would not have to pay up again. MVC owners already *did* pay-up in 2010 or subsequently to enroll in the DC, so no need to pay again. VSE owners would just now be given the same enrollment opportunity for the same kind of fee.
> 
> In thinking about Fasttr's question just above, if they take this approach, I would not expect them to allow MVC post-6/2010 weeks to enroll without the current promotional requirement to buy a bucket of points. I would suspect their opinion would be that boat has already sailed for MVC owners, so either buy points or be content with an unenrolled week. I can't see a reason why they would go backwards and extend that option to MVC post-2010 resale owners - even though I would absolutely *love* it if they did.


 
Interesting thoughts. If we think about the composition of the current DC trust it is all MVC today.  So:

1) Giving legacy enrolled MVC owners access does not buy them much (but sounds like a lot) because there would be little VSN in the trust initially - just the unsold inventory. And possibly the Flex programs. This will  delight MVC owners (even though they don't really get much) and they will have not a basis to complain because there is limited VSN inventory and they get access to this for free.  They are getting in on the ground floor.

2) Giving VSN access to the DC trust gives VSN owners access to a LOT of MVC inventory. This economic value (plus being equitable to MVC owners who paid to enroll) may be why they may charge VSN to access DC.  *However,* every VSN that enrolls will add to the MVC access pool and make that trust more valuable so they cannot make it too expensive or it will be a primarily MVC trust. So they may add targeted promos to provide a deeply discounted access to enroll desirable properties into the trust.

3) To monetize the MVC base they might make this access available only for a certain elite tier and above. This is how they will get everyone to buy developer.

IMHO...I don't think MVC will care if someone historically purchased VSN or Hyatt resale because that happened in a galaxy far far away and did not involve MVC.  It would complicate the program. However they may limit going forward via the elite tiers so everyone pays.


----------



## pchung6

GregT said:


> I agree -- you are at the top of the ladder with your WKORV OF -- I am the same with my Maui Ocean Club 3BR's -- I enrolled them but it is incredibly rare that I redeem even one of them for points -- they are much more valuable as rentals or personal use.
> 
> It also makes sense that your mandatory SVV may be more valuable within VSN than it is to DC and you may be able to satisfy all of your travel needs outside of DC.  However, Marriott is smart and knows that you don't need DC and I think they will offer you a "tolerable" fee to enroll -- something like $2K - $3K to enroll both weeks?  (total speculation -- but consistent with 2010 enrollment costs)



Now you are making me to think to acquire another WKORVN OF or WKV before they totally eliminate the SVN network one day.  I will be sad to see VSN go, this is such a good product.


----------



## JIMinNC

CalGalTraveler said:


> 3) To monetize the MVC base they might make this access available only for a certain elite tier and above. This is how they will get everyone to buy developer.
> 
> IMHO...I don't think MVC will care if someone historically purchased VSN or Hyatt resale because that happened in a galaxy far far away and did not involve MVC.  It would complicate the program. However they may limit going forward via the elite tiers so everyone pays.



Just remember in MVC, resale point purchases DO count for qualification for elite tiers (as long as the junk fees were paid, which they almost always are). So limiting some benefit to higher tiers does not automatically mandate a developer purchase in MVC.


----------



## JIMinNC

pchung6 said:


> Now you are making me to think to acquire another WKORVN OF or WKV before they totally eliminate the SVN network one day.  I will be sad to see VSN go, this is such a good product.



If SVN is legally a part of the Mandatory Week CCRs as others have said, wouldn't it be impossible for them to eliminate SVN entirely? Wouldn't it have to remain in some form, at least for Mandatory weeks? Could they mandate that the Voluntary weeks all play in the DC at some point?  If all of the Voluntary weeks came out of SVN, would that destroy the program and thus force Mandatory owners to convert?


----------



## pchung6

JIMinNC said:


> If SVN is legally a part of the Mandatory Week CCRs as others have said, wouldn't it be impossible for them to eliminate VSN entirely? Wouldn't it have to remain in some form, at least for Mandatory weeks? Could they mandate that the Voluntary weeks all play in the DC at some point?  If all of the Voluntary weeks came out of VSN, would that destroy the program and thus force Mandatory owners to convert?



Yes they can do whatever that and just be ready to face 200k+ angry customers and maybe class action.  Again same attitude, we own you we can do whatever we want, you VSN people have to pay.


----------



## JIMinNC

pchung6 said:


> Yes they can do whatever that and just be ready to face 200k+ angry customers and maybe class action.  Again same attitude, we own you we can do whatever we want, you VSN people have to pay.



Given their past M.O., I would not expect they would want to do that. They have tried to use the carrot more than the stick with the DC program, and I would expect that would continue with the current transition. But who knows? Sometimes strategies change. Sales reps have sometimes used fear of forced change like this as a way to try to motivate people to buy, but in actual practice, MVC has generally not been interested in forcing major change that would anger large, important parts of their customer base.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

JIMinNC said:


> Just remember in MVC, resale point purchases DO count for qualification for elite tiers (as long as the junk fees were paid, which they almost always are). So limiting some benefit to higher tiers does not automatically mandate a developer purchase in MVC.



True. Either way the money is just as green to MVC.


----------



## pchung6

JIMinNC said:


> Given their past M.O., I would not expect they would want to do that. They have tried to use the carrot more than the stick with the DC program, and I would expect that would continue with the current transition. But who knows? Sometimes strategies change. Sales reps have sometimes used fear of forced change like this as a way to try to motivate people to buy, but in actual practice, MVC has generally not been interested in forcing major change that would anger large, important parts of their customer base.



That's my hope too.  I don't think Marriott would be stupid enough to anger Vistana or Hyatt side of customer base.  I'm sure these customers considered and purchased SPG or Hyatt resorts as their life time vacation are Marriott doesn't want to mess around.  I see it as a slow and smooth transition until everyone is comfortable about the new combined system instead of suddenly 180 degree restructuring.  I won't be surprise it  will take 5-10 years.


----------



## ocdb8r

JIMinNC said:


> If you look at the way MVC designed the DC, they have never shied away from complexity, so my bet would be their choice will be (b). I think the mis-match in value that you note in (a) might create too many exchange rate inequity issues, and might dissuade them from taking that approach.



Agreed, but even approach b suffers from creating some problem.  flexOptions are based on on the SVN points charts.  This means they're stuck in a situation where any fixed exchange rate creates a problem - the flexOption trusts are made up of weeks valued at the SVN point rates in those charts.  Some sort of "skim" may give MVC flexibility in balancing those inherent mismatches (e.g. for flexOptions owners 81,000 flexOptions gets you 2000 DC points where for DC points owners it takes 2500 DC points to get 81,000 flexOptions - they skim some amount of points each way).  



JIMinNC said:


> This is a *very* important point. If all Mandatory Resorts must be in VSN by the CCRs, then I agree that they will probably have no option to put those weeks into the DC Trust. To be accessible by the DC, they would have to be co-mingled in the DC Exchange just like other enrolled weeks. Does VSE have the right in the CCRs to deposit unsold Mandatory weeks with II (thus taking them out of the VSN pool)? If so, they could probably designate the DC Exchange as another exchange program and thus have the right to designate some portion of their unsold inventory to VSN and another portion to the DC Exchange (and presumably maybe another portion to II). I will predict that if this is the case, there will be suspicion/complaints/screams that Marriott is taking inventory out of VSN and giving it to the DC, thus hurting VSN owners. That's what happened when the DC was first introduced - people were convinced MVC was manipulating inventory to benefit the DC at the expense of the legacy Weeks system.



Yes, VSE controls VSN and likely has the flexibility to introduce another "external" exchange option and could shoehorn DC in there.  However if they go this route, this means again they're stuck using the existing SVN points charts (i.e. whatever exchange rate they use, they're going to need to fix DC points to StarOptions in some way).  

Add to this the fact that SVN is already having to play some inventory management game between weeks owners (who can convert to StarOptions) and flexOptions owners who own part of a trust and you end up with a VERY complex inventory game being played:


MVC weeks <--> DC Trust
SVN weeks <--> 3 different flexOption trusts
multiple permutations of MVC weeks and DC trust <--> SVN weeks and 3 flexOption trusts
I have no idea how they make sure enough inventory is available to people who sign up for a larger program AND people wanting to trade in their old original program.  Someone is going to feel slighted and start digging into the details.



JIMinNC said:


> If SVN is legally a part of the Mandatory Week CCRs as others have said, wouldn't it be impossible for them to eliminate SVN entirely? Wouldn't it have to remain in some form, at least for Mandatory weeks? Could they mandate that the Voluntary weeks all play in the DC at some point?  If all of the Voluntary weeks came out of SVN, would that destroy the program and thus force Mandatory owners to convert?



I would never say "impossible" but very difficult and likely open to lots of legal challenges.  I don't think they could mandate that either Mandatory or Voluntary weeks have to play in the DC, but they could create a situation where if you elect to exchange your SVN week for DC points, it get's deposited into the DC pool and never goes to the SVN pool (this is kind of how II exchanges work).  However, I don't know where that leaves flexOption owners.

Some hybrid of the above might be the answer:

SVN weeks owners can choose to: a) use their home resort week, b) elect SVN Options (based on existing SVN chart) or c) elect DC points (based on a new DC chart disregarding SVN chart rates and based closer to actual resort demand like the DC charts).

flexOption owners can choose to: a) use a week in their "home trust" b) exchange via SVN Options or c) elect for DC point rates at a fixed exchange (just disregarding the fact that there will be a mismatch between what weeks owners and flexOption owners get).

The outcome of the above is likely that flexOption owners and owners of high value weeks are enticed to the DC while desert and Orlando weeks are enticed to try to use SVN...which will put pressure on SVN as "good" trades will be harder to come by.  Finally, it's unclear how ILG manages flexOption trust inventory exchanges (do they prioritize DC exchange requests or SVN exchange requests).


----------



## Dean

GregT said:


> Dean,
> 
> Thank you for posting what you heard, I find it interesting and I've extracted the three key comments (to me, at least).  What you've described seems consistent with what we have speculated, and would not be harmful to VSN owners or MVC owners, as their existing systems remain intact (with current rules) and there becomes a (slow?) cross-pollination of the two systems.    I find the words "access to any inventory that was made available" to be interesting -- will be curious what availability really means.
> 
> I recall spending (wasting?) countless hours trying to figure how Marriott was loading the Exchange with inventory from the Trust and making it available to point reservations.   Maybe it's coming again?
> 
> Thanks again for posting.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


I'm sure it'll hurt some and help others and there will be countless that feel harmed even if they are not.  The largest issues are likely to be access to the additional options, cost to do so and the likelihood that over time this will affect inventory for all systems.



JIMinNC said:


> Greg,
> 
> I interpreted that phrase to mean inventory that VSN owners chose to enroll and then elect for DC Points. Meaning that DC owners would not have full access to VSN inventory, just that portion that is enrolled/elected. Same as DC owners don't have access to unenrolled/unelected weeks in the current MVC system. That's how I read it.


That's the way it was presented other than that it was suggested that some of the resorts might be rebranded as MVC, esp Key West Hyatt's.  We'll see.  



CPNY said:


> I understand that. But for VSN owners, if you are able to enroll your points into bonvoy it means you purchased through a developer. You lose that benefit on a resale, whether or not it’s a voluntary or mandatory deed, unless you retro that resale with an additional developer purchase. It would just be a way to offer full price payers a less expensive “buy in” on the VSE side. Essentially making resale VSE owners having to buy another developer purchase either in a flex program or Destination points. I think that’s fair, I purchased developer and I’d be miffed if i have to purchase another developer purchase rather than a smaller fee to enroll that unit. When it comes to my resale purchases I would expect to have to “retro” back in or enroll in the program with a developer purchase or resale paying their insane enrollment fees. I was suggesting just using the bonvoy enrollment as a caveat to getting “into” speculated program.


Maybe but not necessarily.  I would tend to anticipate a relatively short opportunity to enroll for a modest fee for all.  If any are rebranded, they'll likely lose access to their native system but I wouldn't be surprised if they were able to enroll for a small fee or even free.  



pchung6 said:


> Yes they can do whatever that and just be ready to face 200k+ angry customers and maybe class action.  Again same attitude, we own you we can do whatever we want, you VSN people have to pay.


I suspect they'll do what's legal and what they see as the best overall.  I don't think they're going to worry too much about complaints or class action if they dot the I's and cross the T's legally.  I find the class action threat normally empty but any resort that wants would vote themselves out completely.


----------



## pchung6

ocdb8r said:


> Agreed, but even approach b suffers from creating some problem.  flexOptions are based on on the SVN points charts.  This means they're stuck in a situation where any fixed exchange rate creates a problem - the flexOption trusts are made up of weeks valued at the SVN point rates in those charts.  Some sort of "skim" may give MVC flexibility in balancing those inherent mismatches (e.g. for flexOptions owners 81,000 flexOptions gets you 2000 DC points where for DC points owners it takes 2500 DC points to get 81,000 flexOptions - they skim some amount of points each way).
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, VSE controls VSN and likely has the flexibility to introduce another "external" exchange option and could shoehorn DC in there.  However if they go this route, this means again they're stuck using the existing SVN points charts (i.e. whatever exchange rate they use, they're going to need to fix DC points to StarOptions in some way).
> 
> Add to this the fact that SVN is already having to play some inventory management game between weeks owners (who can convert to StarOptions) and flexOptions owners who own part of a trust and you end up with a VERY complex inventory game being played:
> 
> 
> MVC weeks <--> DC Trust
> SVN weeks <--> 3 different flexOption trusts
> multiple permutations of MVC weeks and DC trust <--> SVN weeks and 3 flexOption trusts
> I have no idea how they make sure enough inventory is available to people who sign up for a larger program AND people wanting to trade in their old original program.  Someone is going to feel slighted and start digging into the details.
> 
> 
> 
> I would never say "impossible" but very difficult and likely open to lots of legal challenges.  I don't think they could mandate that either Mandatory or Voluntary weeks have to play in the DC, but they could create a situation where if you elect to exchange your SVN week for DC points, it get's deposited into the DC pool and never goes to the SVN pool (this is kind of how II exchanges work).  However, I don't know where that leaves flexOption owners.
> 
> Some hybrid of the above might be the answer:
> 
> SVN weeks owners can choose to: a) use their home resort week, b) elect SVN Options (based on existing SVN chart) or c) elect DC points (based on a new DC chart disregarding SVN chart rates and based closer to actual resort demand like the DC charts).
> 
> flexOption owners can choose to: a) use a week in their "home trust" b) exchange via SVN Options or c) elect for DC point rates at a fixed exchange (just disregarding the fact that there will be a mismatch between what weeks owners and flexOption owners get).
> 
> The outcome of the above is likely that flexOption owners and owners of high value weeks are enticed to the DC while desert and Orlando weeks are enticed to try to use SVN...which will put pressure on SVN as "good" trades will be harder to come by.  Finally, it's unclear how ILG manages flexOption trust inventory exchanges (do they prioritize DC exchange requests or SVN exchange requests).



Excellent! Great analysis and one of the best posts in this thread.  All make sense, fair and logical.


----------



## JIMinNC

Dean said:


> That's the way it was presented other than that it was suggested that some of the resorts might be rebranded as MVC, esp Key West Hyatt's.  We'll see.



Some of the Hyatt timeshares are co-located with Hyatt Hotels, but it looks like all three in Key West are separate. One isn't too far away from The Key West Hyatt Hotel, but it appears to be separate based on a map on the Hyatt site. So, rebranding could be an option, but taking away access to the other Hyatt's could be unpopular with those owners. Would be a potential minefield for MVC unless they could rebrand all of the Hyatt's - and with some co-located, that could be problematic.


----------



## SteelerGal

JIMinNC said:


> Some of the Hyatt timeshares are co-located with Hyatt Hotels, but it looks like all three in Key West are separate. One isn't too far away from The Key West Hyatt Hotel, but it appears to be separate based on a map on the Hyatt site. So, rebranding could be an option, but taking away access to the other Hyatt's could be unpopular with those owners. Would be a potential minefield for MVC unless they could rebrand all of the Hyatt's - and with some co-located, that could be problematic.


Right now Hyatt owners at Florida aren’t too happy because of the selling of resort day passes(supposed to be for Hyatt hotel only).   Also staff has slowly been replaced w/ Marriott Staff who aren’t as attentive.


----------



## ocdb8r

JIMinNC said:


> Some of the Hyatt timeshares are co-located with Hyatt Hotels, but it looks like all three in Key West are separate. One isn't too far away from The Key West Hyatt Hotel, but it appears to be separate based on a map on the Hyatt site. So, rebranding could be an option, but taking away access to the other Hyatt's could be unpopular with those owners. Would be a potential minefield for MVC unless they could rebrand all of the Hyatt's - and with some co-located, that could be problematic.



There are three things that come into play with any re-brand discussion:

1) MVC's ability to negotiate a license agreement with Hyatt.  MVC has already made clear on investor relations calls that they are in the middle of this negotiation, which was triggered by the change of control provision in the existing Hyatt licensing contract.  If they can't get a license at an acceptable rate or on acceptable terms, MVC will lose the ability to use the Hyatt brand on any timeshare's they service;

2) MVC's strategic plans for a larger/combined timeshare portfolio.  They may not WANT to brand all or any of the timeshare's "Hyatt".  I think the fact they are in negotiations with Hyatt says they intend to keep at least some locations branded as Hyatt.

3) MVC's control (or lack thereof) of individual resort Boards.  Remember, each of the Hyatt resorts should have the ability to dismiss MVC and turn to another property management firm.  MVC may have sufficient control of certain Boards to prevent this and may also have other "provisions" in place to maintain "control" of most Hyatt resorts.  However, I can't imagine a full on re-brand to Marriott wouldn't require a majority of owners at any resort voting in favor. (Apologies as I don't have the energy to read into any of the Hyatt CCRs...but I may get to it this weekend).  

There are a few things not being talked about here though: 

a) Hyatt Vacation Club recently released their own point program (that from most reports is REALLY struggling to sell) and so you have a whole host of issues with yet again another "trust" having been set up (prior to the MVC purchase) with it's own set of governing documents that could complicate any rebranding effort; and

b) I have no idea what a "partial" rebranding achieves.  It doesn't alleviate them of the need to license the Hyatt name, rebranding alone doesn't solve the problem of how to actually incorporate the Hyatt resorts into the DC program, it risks alienating all Hyatt owners (both those being rebranded and those losing Hyatt locations from potential exchange opportunities) and finally it only adds another layer of complication to this whole process.  

I had always been under the impression MVC was going to try to sort the SVN harmonization first and deal with Hyatt properties later...however, perhaps the big flop of the Hyatt points program has pushed MVC management to do something drastic.


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> I'm sure it'll hurt some and help others and there will be countless that feel harmed even if they are not.  The largest issues are likely to be access to the additional options, cost to do so and the likelihood that over time this will affect inventory for all systems.
> 
> That's the way it was presented other than that it was suggested that some of the resorts might be rebranded as MVC, esp Key West Hyatt's.  We'll see.
> 
> Maybe but not necessarily.  I would tend to anticipate a relatively short opportunity to enroll for a modest fee for all.  If any are rebranded, they'll likely lose access to their native system but I wouldn't be surprised if they were able to enroll for a small fee or even free.
> 
> I suspect they'll do what's legal and what they see as the best overall.  I don't think they're going to worry too much about complaints or class action if they dot the I's and cross the T's legally.  I find the class action threat normally empty but any resort that wants would vote themselves out completely.


Really the fair way to have a joint program is to make EVERYONE pay, except for me. So I expect the announcement to go something like this, 

“We are pleased to announce that after a few years of becoming one family to provide our customers with the greatest choices in travel, we finally ready to announce our new joint vacation ownership experience, one where the customer can control where and when they want to vacation. To make this a fair and easy transition we are allowing all of our owners a way to join this program. Just pay a fee and each interest will be joined. To make it fair EVERYONE must pay..... WITH THE EXCEPTION OF CPNY FROM THE TUG FORUM, HE GETS IT ALL FOR FREE. DOESN'T HAVE TO PAY A CENT. AS A MATTER OF FACT, WE ARE ELIMINATING ALL IF HIS MAINT FEES GOING FORWARD”

That’s how I envision the announcement to go, paraphrasing of course.


----------



## JIMinNC

ocdb8r said:


> However, I can't imagine a full on re-brand to Marriott wouldn't require a majority of owners at any resort voting in favor. (Apologies as I don't have the energy to read into any of the Hyatt CCRs...but I may get to it this weekend).



The only experience I have with anything remotely similar was with my original timeshare ownership in the old Embassy Vacation Resort brand back in the late 1990s, before Hilton acquired the Embassy brand. The original Embassy Vacation Resort program consisted of five resorts if I recall correctly:

Embassy Vacation Resort at Kaanapali Beach (developed and managed by Sunterra)
Embassy Vacation Resort at Poipu Point (developed and managed by Sunterra)
Embassy Vacation Resort at Grand Beach (developed and managed by Sunterra)
Embassy Vacation Resort Myrtle Beach (developed and managed by Vistana [pre-Starwood])
Embassy Vacation Resort Scottsdale (developed and managed by Vistana [pre-Starwood])

After Hilton Hotels bought Embassy, they decided not to continue the timeshare affiliations with Sunterra and Vistana and the Embassy Vacation Resort brand went away at all five resorts. We lost the ability to do internal trades to Myrtle Beach and Scottsdale since they were managed by Vistana and we owned in Maui as part of the Sunterra-managed group. Vistana re-branded their two as Sheraton Vacation Resorts (I think that was when the Starwood affiliation began) and Sunterra made their three resorts part of their larger Club Sunterra group (which later was acquired by Diamond). As owners, we did not have to approve any rebranding.

If I recall correctly from our Marriott CCRs, the brand on the sign is not something that requires owner approval. I believe the property manager has no obligation to maintain a Marriott affiliation and the CCRs say the license is at the discretion of Marriott International. I would be surprised in Hyatt was much different.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> If SVN is legally a part of the Mandatory Week CCRs as others have said, wouldn't it be impossible for them to eliminate SVN entirely? Wouldn't it have to remain in some form, at least for Mandatory weeks? Could they mandate that the Voluntary weeks all play in the DC at some point?  If all of the Voluntary weeks came out of SVN, would that destroy the program and thus force Mandatory owners to convert?


Voluntary membership is a benefit unique to the original owner. All it means is it cannot be transferred. To my knowledge, if you purchased from the developer they can’t take that membership away from you and force you to buy more to have that benefit. Considering that is how the developer sold the unit. But I’m not 100% sure. I don’t know exactly what the contract says. I never owned a voluntary resort


----------



## bogey21

Dean said:


> That's the way it was presented other than that it was suggested that some of the resorts might be rebranded as MVC, esp Key West Hyatt's.



I could see that...

George


----------



## csalter2

pchung6 said:


> Excellent! Great analysis and one of the best posts in this thread.  All make sense, fair and logical, unlike few MVC owners here still thinking to find a way to take advantage for free of our great VSN system with "We own you, screw you" attitude.



 The fact is that for some reason your timeshare company has been bought! We are all speculating about the possibilities.  That’s both Marriott and Vistana owners.


----------



## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> The only experience I have with anything remotely similar was with my original timeshare ownership in the old Embassy Vacation Resort brand back in the late 1990s, before Hilton acquired the Embassy brand. The original Embassy Vacation Resort program consisted of five resorts if I recall correctly:
> 
> Embassy Vacation Resort at Kaanapali Beach (developed and managed by Sunterra)
> Embassy Vacation Resort at Poipu Point (developed and managed by Sunterra)
> Embassy Vacation Resort at Grand Beach (developed and managed by Sunterra)
> *Embassy Vacation Resort Myrtle Beach (developed and managed by Vistana [pre-Starwood])
> Embassy Vacation Resort Scottsdale (developed and managed by Vistana [pre-Starwood])*
> 
> After Hilton Hotels bought Embassy, they decided not to continue the timeshare affiliations with Sunterra and Vistana and the Embassy Vacation Resort brand went away at all five resorts. We lost the ability to do internal trades to Myrtle Beach and Scottsdale since they were managed by Vistana and we owned in Maui as part of the Sunterra-managed group. Vistana re-branded their two as Sheraton Vacation Resorts (I think that was when the Starwood affiliation began) and Sunterra made their three resorts part of their larger Club Sunterra group (which later was acquired by Diamond). As owners, we did not have to approve any rebranding.
> 
> If I recall correctly from our Marriott CCRs, the brand on the sign is not something that requires owner approval. I believe the property manager has no obligation to maintain a Marriott affiliation and the CCRs say the license is at the discretion of Marriott International. I would be surprised in Hyatt was much different.


I believe those last two on the list became Sheraton Broadway Plantation and Sheraton Desert Oasis? Starwood also picked up the other Vistana resorts at the time; Vistana Beach Club, Vistana Resort, Vistana PGA Resort and perhaps the early phase (Bella) at Vistana Villages.


----------



## CPNY

UNRELATED

So maybe 2019 is the year of the timeshare. Seems like hotels are getting a bad rep lol. Gotta love airbnb and VRBO

https://thepointsguy.com/news/marri..._content=19FE41EA-A28D-11E9-87B1-2D0B933C408C


----------



## csalter2

G


CPNY said:


> UNRELATED
> 
> So maybe 2019 is the year of the timeshare. Seems like hotels are getting a bad rep lol. Gotta love airbnb and VRBO
> 
> https://thepointsguy.com/news/marri..._content=19FE41EA-A28D-11E9-87B1-2D0B933C408C



I hate when hotels  do that. I was at a Hilton recently and they do the same thing. They learned it from the airlines.


----------



## CPNY

csalter2 said:


> G
> 
> 
> I hate when hotel do that. I was at a Hilton recently and they do the same thing. They learned it from the airlines.


It’s terrible! I think hotels sometimes are worse than airlines.


----------



## Dean

CPNY said:


> Really the fair way to have a joint program is to make EVERYONE pay, except for me. So I expect the announcement to go something like this,
> 
> “We are pleased to announce that after a few years of becoming one family to provide our customers with the greatest choices in travel, we finally ready to announce our new joint vacation ownership experience, one where the customer can control where and when they want to vacation. To make this a fair and easy transition we are allowing all of our owners a way to join this program. Just pay a fee and each interest will be joined. To make it fair EVERYONE must pay..... WITH THE EXCEPTION OF CPNY FROM THE TUG FORUM, HE GETS IT ALL FOR FREE. DOESN'T HAVE TO PAY A CENT. AS A MATTER OF FACT, WE ARE ELIMINATING ALL IF HIS MAINT FEES GOING FORWARD”
> 
> That’s how I envision the announcement to go, paraphrasing of course.


The reality is that all current members of the Destinations Club have already paid to be a member in one way or another and the others haven't.  That they are/were a member of a different program is somewhat irrelevant to the DC.  All owners should have their contractually guaranteed options, the rest is going to be up in the air.  We'll see what happens but I'd suspect a 3 tier system or some variation is likely early on with the middle tier phasing out to some degree or another over time.  But to say we were a member of XYZ and therefore we should get the same benefits as the current DC owners within the DC system is both unrealistic and unreasonable IMO.  If you're happy with your current system I suspect it'll survive to a degree and for a while, after that we'll see.  As was made clear to me at our presentation yesterday when I used the term merger, this was not a merger but an acquisition.  Think of it like the company you work for was bought by a bigger company.  Your position here would be the same as saying everyone should have a job with the new company and at the same salary.


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> It’s terrible! I think hotels sometimes are worse than airlines.



This is bad. I think few hotels are being sued by some states. I still remember I was charged $40 resort fee + $40 valet +tax per day last year in Maui


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> The reality is that all current members of the Destinations Club have already paid to be a member in one way or another and the others haven't.  That they are/were a member of a different program is somewhat irrelevant to the DC.  All owners should have their contractually guaranteed options, the rest is going to be up in the air.  We'll see what happens but I'd suspect a 3 tier system or some variation is likely early on with the middle tier phasing out to some degree or another over time.  But to say we were a member of XYZ and therefore we should get the same benefits as the current DC owners within the DC system is both unrealistic and unreasonable IMO.  If you're happy with your current system I suspect it'll survive to a degree and for a while, after that we'll see.  As was made clear to me at our presentation yesterday when I used the term merger, this was not a merger but an acquisition.  Think of it like the company you work for was bought by a bigger company.  Your position here would be the same as saying everyone should have a job with the new company and at the same salary.


 You realize I’m kidding? Clearly not. Lol uhhh was making a joke about everyone but me paying.


----------



## pchung6

csalter2 said:


> You have very negative and ugly responses throughout this thread. You really need to put that nonsense behind you and cut the negativity.  The fact is that for some reason your timeshare company has been bought! That’s not entitlement. It’s just pure fact. Accept it and move on. We are all speculating about the possibilities.  That’s both Marriott and Vistana owners. If you can’t participate and be civil and respectful then get off the forum. SueDonJ I’m sorry but I’ve had enough of this individual’s ridiculousness.


I’m sorry to let you feel this way. I am also as frustrating as you toward the response just right above my previous post against me. I changed my post with some removal and hope it makes you feel better. I also hope all of us to calm down and just keep the discussion straight to the topic without personal. Thanks.


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> I believe those last two on the list became Sheraton Broadway Plantation and Sheraton Desert Oasis? Starwood also picked up the other Vistana resorts at the time; Vistana Beach Club, Vistana Resort, Vistana PGA Resort and perhaps the early phase (Bella) at Vistana Villages.



Correct on Broadway Plantation and Desert Oasis.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> UNRELATED
> 
> So maybe 2019 is the year of the timeshare. Seems like hotels are getting a bad rep lol. Gotta love airbnb and VRBO
> 
> https://thepointsguy.com/news/marri..._content=19FE41EA-A28D-11E9-87B1-2D0B933C408C



Resort fees are so annoying. I think it’s deceptive pricing.  

Still can’t quite bring myself to use Airbnb or VRBO though. I still prefer the predictability of quality at a name brand hotel. I may consider trying Airbnb somewhere like smaller villages in Europe if there are no good name brand hotel options, so maybe I’ll like it when I try it, but I don’t like surprises, so despite the annoying fees I tend to gravitate to hotels when I can’t use our ownerships.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> Resort fees are so annoying. I think it’s deceptive pricing.
> 
> Still can’t quite bring myself to use Airbnb or VRBO though. I still prefer the predictability of quality at a name brand hotel. I may consider trying Airbnb somewhere like smaller villages in Europe if there are no good name brand hotel options, so maybe I’ll like it when I try it, but I don’t like surprises, so despite the annoying fees I tend to gravitate to hotels when I can’t use our ownerships.



I do plenty of research and read a lot of reviews for my airbnb. I’ve had amazing experiences with airbnb. Some have had horror stories. I also only book whole places. No shared rooms, that I cannot do. I was never the backpacker hostel type. But I’ve rented ski houses, flats in Europe (which are amazing) whole buildings in Amsterdam with roof tops it was insane! I was just in Sydney in feb and we had a great little house/2 bedroom apartment. The place was huge and you get a great sense of living in that city. I always recommend airbnb when I can. It’s great for cities. You should def try it out


----------



## Dean

CPNY said:


> You realize I’m kidding? Clearly not. Lol uhhh was making a joke about everyone but me paying.


Of course, but more sarcasm than humor it seems unless all your negative posts have been simply humor.  My response was outside that issue but more to your serious posts where you clearly believe it should be treated as a merger rather than a takeover.  I'm doubting it will work out that way but none of us know for sure.  Realistically expect some type of fee to participate in DC and for current DC members to have access without an addition fee to any inventory that ends up in the DC system but I'm guessing it'll be fairly light early and heavier later.


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> Of course, but more sarcasm than humor it seems unless all your negative posts have been simply humor.  My response was outside that issue but more to your serious posts where you clearly believe it should be treated as a merger rather than a takeover.  I'm doubting it will work out that way but none of us know for sure.  Realistically expect some type of fee to participate in DC and for current DC members to have access without an addition fee to any inventory that ends up in the DC system but I'm guessing it'll be fairly light early and heavier later.



Oh trust me, we know it wasn’t a merger, I don’t think many were happy when Marriott bought us. Personally I don’t care if there is a fee to buy back into Marriott. I likely wouldn’t do that. I’m very happy with my mandatory deeds and would continue to use them how I’ve been using them. With the exception of Aruba. I think you have more MVC owners wanting to get into the Westin properties than Westin owners wanting to visit a Marriott.


----------



## Dean

CPNY said:


> Oh trust me, we know it wasn’t a merger, I don’t think many were happy when Marriott bought us. Personally I don’t care if there is a fee to buy back into Marriott. I likely wouldn’t do that. I’m very happy with my mandatory deeds and would continue to use them how I’ve been using them. With the exception of Aruba. I think you have more MVC owners wanting to get into the Westin properties than Westin owners wanting to visit a Marriott.


We'll see, just the volume suggests the reverse but I suspect it depends largely on the final product.  At the sales presentation they stated they were reworking the points charts so that and the specifics of access to each will likely determine the activity and interest both ways.  It may also depend on how much of the previous systems survive.  Again, I think the contractual portion is something you can count on but nothing else.  Honestly I'm not versed well enough in Hyatt, Westin or Vistana legalities to know where the line must be drawn.  Regardless expect the sales staff to play up whatever situation ends up being the reality.  And expect the system to move over time toward the DC system.  An alternative is they could do away with the other points options and give others access to the DC directly but that would add any such inventory to the Trust/DC system immediately.  And we have another 6-9 months to go through this issue.  Reminds me of when the DC system came out.


----------



## pchung6

Dean said:


> Of course, but more sarcasm than humor it seems unless all your negative posts have been simply humor.  My response was outside that issue but more to your serious posts where you clearly believe it should be treated as a merger rather than a takeover.  I'm doubting it will work out that way but none of us know for sure.  Realistically expect some type of fee to participate in DC and for current DC members to have access without an addition fee to any inventory that ends up in the DC system but I'm guessing it'll be fairly light early and heavier later.



Let me be honest, and I don’t want to be called negativity when just speaking the truth. With fee or not, I really don’t care. I will keep enjoying my deed week at any Westin resorts. I won’t participate DC with or without fee. So it doesn’t matter to me and I think not many SVN owners will join either. So good luck with your DC inventory might be filled with unsold Palm Springs or Orlando. However maybe, I say maybe, there could a fee for MVC owner to join? Will you pay or not?


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> We'll see, just the volume suggests the reverse but I suspect it depends largely on the final product.  At the sales presentation they stated they were reworking the points charts so that and the specifics of access to each will likely determine the activity and interest both ways.  It may also depend on how much of the previous systems survive.  Again, I think the contractual portion is something you can count on but nothing else.  Honestly I'm not versed well enough in Hyatt, Westin or Vistana legalities to know where the line must be drawn.  Regardless expect the sales staff to play up whatever situation ends up being the reality.  And expect the system to move over time toward the DC system.  An alternative is they could do away with the other points options and give others access to the DC directly but that would add any such inventory to the Trust/DC system immediately.  And we have another 6-9 months to go through this issue.  Reminds me of when the DC system came out.


I think you’ll have a lot of hold outs but then you’ll have plenty on the Vistana side who have no clue what they have and will most likely “upgrade” I use that word loosely considering what they will make people pay. I don’t know the legalities either but I would  assume they can’t make drastic changes and reduce access to resorts in the network. Vistana’s program had the star options and being able to have your deeded week or home resort then booking within the network at 8 months without an exchange platform has been a huge benefit to this program. To my knowledge the old MVC deeded weeks never had that correct? It was all exchanged through the interval platform and the inventory came from exchanges and whatever inventory Marriott dumped in? I could have that wrong.


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> We'll see, just the volume suggests the reverse but I suspect it depends largely on the final product.  At the sales presentation they stated they were reworking the points charts so that and the specifics of access to each will likely determine the activity and interest both ways.  It may also depend on how much of the previous systems survive.  Again, I think the contractual portion is something you can count on but nothing else.  Honestly I'm not versed well enough in Hyatt, Westin or Vistana legalities to know where the line must be drawn.  Regardless expect the sales staff to play up whatever situation ends up being the reality.  And expect the system to move over time toward the DC system.  An alternative is they could do away with the other points options and give others access to the DC directly but that would add any such inventory to the Trust/DC system immediately.  And we have another 6-9 months to go through this issue.  Reminds me of when the DC system came out.


One thing is for certain, they are starting to deedback the Vistana resorts So I assume they are building the inventory for the DC program they may enroll the DC owners and the Sheraton flex and Westin flex owners and treat them the same as DC owners being that they are all buying into MVG currently. They are paying in as we speak. The existing deeded week owners on the Vistana side will have to pay to enroll and I can see that happening.


----------



## dioxide45

Vistana is still actively conveying inventory to their Flex trusts. They in fact just conveyed a bunch of unsold Nanea HomeOptions to the Westin Flex trust. So it seems that they expect these products to survive beyond any integrated product or they would be holding off with plans to just dump any unsold and reacquired inventory in to the DC trust.


----------



## Dean

pchung6 said:


> Let me be honest, and I don’t want to be called negativity when just speaking the truth. With fee or not, I really don’t care. I will keep enjoying my deed week at any Westin resorts. I won’t participate DC with or without fee. So it doesn’t matter to me and I think not many SVN owners will join either. So good luck with your DC inventory might be filled with unsold Palm Springs or Orlando. However maybe, I say maybe, there could a fee for MVC owner to join? Will you pay or not?


That assumes you have the exact same options as today which may or may not be the case short term and likely won't long term.



CPNY said:


> I think you’ll have a lot of hold outs but then you’ll have plenty on the Vistana side who have no clue what they have and will most likely “upgrade” I use that word loosely considering what they will make people pay. I don’t know the legalities either but I would  assume they can’t make drastic changes and reduce access to resorts in the network. Vistana’s program had the star options and being able to have your deeded week or home resort then booking within the network at 8 months without an exchange platform has been a huge benefit to this program. To my knowledge the old MVC deeded weeks never had that correct? It was all exchanged through the interval platform and the inventory came from exchanges and whatever inventory Marriott dumped in? I could have that wrong.


I suspect if you read the POS you'll find that the management company can make lot's of changes without input and that relatively little is guaranteed.  With Marriott weeks it's their home resort and season and only the ability to attempt to reserve.  With MVC Trust it'd be access to trust inventory only I believe.  Anyone who's overly concerned should read through their legal paperwork to see what protections they have and options Marriott has to make changes.  


CPNY said:


> One thing is for certain, they are starting to deedback the Vistana resorts So I assume they are building the inventory for the DC program they may enroll the DC owners and the Sheraton flex and Westin flex owners and treat them the same as DC owners being that they are all buying into MVG currently. They are paying in as we speak. The existing deeded week owners on the Vistana side will have to pay to enroll and I can see that happening.


It's difficult to say.  I could see a short term open enrollment or a heavy push with fees though I suspect all owners at the time of the acquisition will be treated as retail buyers for these purposes.  What I don't see is a voluntary and free option.  I'd suspect either they'll replace the current points system with the DC completely or a fee based system to access the other options though possibly with a phase in.


----------



## pchung6

Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex, Mexico Flex are still being sold today. Are you saying these just purchased Flex last week have to pay again?


----------



## sjsharkie

As I have mentioned on other threads, I do not believe they will combine the programs. They make far more money IMHO forcing owners to buy in separately into each program.

Why would they give existing DC owners access to Vistana and/or Hyatt properties for free?  They now have a captive audience to sell new timeshare products to when they visit their properties.

Ryan

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> That assumes you have the exact same options as today which may or may not be the case short term and likely won't long term.
> 
> I suspect if you read the POS you'll find that the management company can make lot's of changes without input and that relatively little is guaranteed.  With Marriott weeks it's their home resort and season and only the ability to attempt to reserve.  With MVC Trust it'd be access to trust inventory only I believe.  Anyone who's overly concerned should read through their legal paperwork to see what protections they have and options Marriott has to make changes.
> It's difficult to say.  I could see a short term open enrollment or a heavy push with fees though I suspect all owners at the time of the acquisition will be treated as retail buyers for these purposes.  What I don't see is a voluntary and free option.  I'd suspect either they'll replace the current points system with the DC completely or a fee based system to access the other options though possibly with a phase in.



They may also want to keep things somewhat separate. Just because sales is telling everyone that DC owners will have access and no one else will unless they pay is fine. But that doesn’t mean they will be doing away with the Vistana portion and Westin/Sheraton properties. It doesn’t have to be one type of ownership. They could have DC program along with the flex programs long term. Marriott before the merger had other brands in their portfolio. A successful company has different brands and to the naked eye they are separate companies. Converse is owned by Nike. Most people don’t know that. Nike didn’t rebrand converse to be nike chuck Taylor’s. DC owners will have access because they already paid in, flex owners could as well, others will have to enroll. But that doesn’t mean there will only be one program. There could be one program that has other programs running under or along side it. Facts are no one knows. In the meantime I’ll be wanting to go back to my original resort.


----------



## CPNY

sjsharkie said:


> As I have mentioned on other threads, I do not believe they will combine the programs. They make far more money IMHO forcing owners to buy in separately into each program.
> 
> Why would they give existing DC owners access to Vistana and/or Hyatt properties for free?  They now have a captive audience to sell new timeshare products to when they visit their properties.
> 
> Ryan
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Exactly! Charge everyone. Marriott isn’t in the business of caring about its customers. They are in the business of ripping them off. If they weren’t they wouldn’t be charging the price of a home in some areas to buy worthless points that have annual fees attached that aren’t that much less than booking on Expedia.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Facts are no one knows.


Someone knows, they just aren't allowed to officially tell us.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex, Mexico Flex are still being sold today. Are you saying these just purchased Flex last week have to pay again?



I think they would treat flex owners like DC owners if there was a combined program. These people are buying into the MVG portfolio so I don’t see them making them pay again. Contrary to what the MVC owners believe. The flex buyers today were not acquired they are paying mommy and daddy MVG just like DC owners did. Just because they are buying into Vistana they aren’t inferior. Which imo. Vistana is a better product anyway. But that’s what I say


----------



## csalter2

G


CPNY said:


> UNRELATED
> 
> So maybe 2019 is the year of the timeshare. Seems like hotels are getting a bad rep lol. Gotta love airbnb and VRBO
> 
> https://thepointsguy.com/news/marri..._content=19FE41EA-A28D-11E9-87B1-2D0B933C408C



I hate when hotel do that. I was at a Hilton recently and they do the same thing. They learned it from the airlines.


pchung6 said:


> I’m sorry to let you feel this way. I am also as frustrating as you toward the response just right above my previous post against me. I changed my post with some removal and hope it makes you feel better. I also hope all of us to calm down and just keep the discussion straight to the topic without personal. Thanks.



I appreciate it and I’ve altered my post as well.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> Someone knows, they just aren't allowed to officially tell us.


Let me rephrase. No one here that’s talking knows. And if YOU DO. PM ME lol


----------



## JIMinNC

sjsharkie said:


> As I have mentioned on other threads, I do not believe they will combine the programs. They make far more money IMHO forcing owners to buy in separately into each program.
> 
> Why would they give existing DC owners access to Vistana and/or Hyatt properties for free?  They now have a captive audience to sell new timeshare products to when they visit their properties.
> 
> Ryan
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk




They may not truly combine the programs, but they have announced they are developing an "integrated product form that can be leveraged across the Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton brands enhancing the overall value proposition for our owners and customers." That was what the CEO told stock analysts a couple months ago, talking about their plans for 2020. So, that is a fact we know for sure. We just don't know what form that new product will take or what the buy-in cost will be. Some of us are speculating here that it may resemble the fee-based buy-in approach that they used in 2010 when the DC was first created.


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> Vistana is still actively conveying inventory to their Flex trusts. They in fact just conveyed a bunch of unsold Nanea HomeOptions to the Westin Flex trust. So it seems that they expect these products to survive beyond any integrated product or they would be holding off with plans to just dump any unsold and reacquired inventory in to the DC trust.



That does make it seem that they expect those programs to survive for some considerable time. I wonder if they can merge Trusts? Could they merge the multiple trusts under VSE into one? VSE really created a mess it seems with all of their different variations.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> They may not truly combine the programs, but they have announced they are developing an "integrated product form that can be leveraged across the Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton brands enhancing the overall value proposition for our owners and customers." That was what the CEO told stock analysts a couple months ago, talking about their plans for 2020. So, that is a fact we know for sure. We just don't know what form that new product will take or what the buy-in cost will be. Some of us are speculating here that it may resemble the fee-based buy-in approach that they used in 2010 when the DC was first created.


I would love a straight fee for every booking. If I own Vistana I pay like interval charges, an exchange fee. But that’s what I want. Don’t think that would happen. THEY want me to pay thousands! But that isn’t happening.

I think you can have an integrated program and still sell DC/Sheraton/Westin flex program along side it. You would be selling different tiers giving more options to the customer.


----------



## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> That does make it seem that they expect those programs to survive for some considerable time. I wonder if they can merge Trusts? Could they merge the multiple trusts under VSE into one? VSE really created a mess it seems with all of their different variations.


I am sure they could combine the trusts, but not sure the legalities and if it would be worth it. Though it seems they can convey unsold points from one trust over to another, effectively combining them. Though there are still points over in the prior trust that owners within it would still have access to.


----------



## JIMinNC

Dean said:


> I suspect if you read the POS you'll find that the management company can make lot's of changes without input and that relatively little is guaranteed.  With Marriott weeks it's their home resort and season and only the ability to attempt to reserve.  With MVC Trust it'd be access to trust inventory only I believe.  Anyone who's overly concerned should read through their legal paperwork to see what protections they have and options Marriott has to make changes.



The VSE owners who are participating here can clarify better than I can, but my understanding is since VSE has had points for a long time, at least some of the Vistana deeds have the points system as a part of their deeds in some fashion, so MVW may not have as much flexibility as they did with the old Marriott Weeks system. In the MVC case, the only thing really guaranteed by the deed was usage at your home resort. I think VSE may be a little different. It's complex.


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> I would love a straight fee for every booking. If I own Vistana I pay like interval charges, an exchange fee. But that’s what I want. Don’t think that would happen. THEY want me to pay thousands! But that isn’t happening.



That’s not going to happen. They will want your $3000 today and find a way to charge you $100 each year.  This is my speculation as I said in another thread a while ago.  If you want go to Westin Cancun, you need to buy this add-on option for $3000. But if you add 1500 DC points to your portfolio for today only special $18000, we will waive $3000 add on option fee. Then you can book with DC-to-SO points for a booking fee of $99. Booking fee is waived for chairman level or above. Same goes to VSE owners.  Marriott will charge everyone.


----------



## sjsharkie

JIMinNC said:


> They may not truly combine the programs, but they have announced they are developing an "integrated product form that can be leveraged across the Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton brands enhancing the overall value proposition for our owners and customers." That was what the CEO told stock analysts a couple months ago, talking about their plans for 2020. So, that is a fact we know for sure. We just don't know what form that new product will take or what the buy-in cost will be. Some of us are speculating here that it may resemble the fee-based buy-in approach that they used in 2010 when the DC was first created.


Affiliate access with point conversions or a new program that combines access to Marriott/Vistana?  I can see this happening with a buy-in fee.  Integrated product can mean a lot of things, but I'd wager it does not include allowing existing DC owners access without some sort of fee.  IMHO that would not be extracting the most dollars out of the acquisition.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## pchung6

JIMinNC said:


> The VSE owners who are participating here can clarify better than I can, but my understanding is since VSE has had points for a long time, at least some of the Vistana deeds have the points system as a part of their deeds in some fashion, so MVW may not have as much flexibility as they did with the old Marriott Weeks system. In the MVC case, the only thing really guaranteed by the deed was usage at your home resort. I think VSE may be a little different. It's complex.



Yes, each VSN deed week bought from developer has points assigned to the owner each year or EOY. Only resale mandatory deed (5 resorts) has points attached to the ownership and it is written on the contract that no one can take it away. VSN resale voluntary week is similar to Marriott week, owner can only use the underlying week.


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## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> I think they would treat flex owners like DC owners if there was a combined program. These people are buying into the MVG portfolio so I don’t see them making them pay again. Contrary to what the MVC owners believe. The flex buyers today were not acquired they are paying mommy and daddy MVG just like DC owners did. Just because they are buying into Vistana they aren’t inferior. Which imo. Vistana is a better product anyway. But that’s what I say



I look at Flex owners almost just like VSE weeks owners, the only difference being the week owner has a specific Home Resort where they own a week/Options, whereas the Flex owner's Home Resort is a bundle of weeks/resorts rather than just one place. Weeks owners can book only at their Home Resort from 12-8 months, and its the same for Flex Owners, only they have a bundle of resorts where they can book from 12-8 months. All get access to all VSE resorts at 8 months. As a result, I don't see why they would require legacy VSE weeks owners to buy-into the DC but not require Flex to do the same. The DC is a separate program from VSN with different inventory, so I think both would have to pay a fee of between a few hundred and a couple thousand dollars to join if the DC is, in fact, what they use as the internal exchange mechanism.

The outstanding question is whether MVC owners would be required to also ante-up some additional cash to get access to the Vistana inventory that makes its way into the DC pool. Sales seems to be telling owners MVC won't have to pay again, but I guess that is still TBD. Since MVC will not be able to guarantee how much VSE inventory will wind up being enrolled in the DC (depends on the response from the VSE owners), it may be harder for them to justify a fee for MVC owners right now, whereas the VSE owners who "join" would seem to be getting immediate access to every week that exists in the DC already.


----------



## JIMinNC

pchung6 said:


> That’s not going to happen. They will want your $3000 today and find a way to charge you $100 each year.  This is my speculation as I said in another thread a while ago.  If you want go to Westin Cancun, you need to buy this add-on option for $3000. But if you add 1500 DC points to your portfolio for today only special $18000, we will waive $3000 add on option fee. Then you can book with DC-to-SO points for a booking fee of $99. Booking fee is waived for chairman level or above. Same goes to VSE owners.  Marriott will charge everyone.



*IF* Marriott uses the DC model, I don't see them charging booking fees, since that's a key piece of the DC today - all internal transaction fees are covered by the annual DC membership fee. No nickel and dime fees. I agree 100% that the model you suggest of an enrollment fee, possibly waived with a new points purchase is a likely strategy. That seems very much like an approach they would take.


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## JIMinNC

sjsharkie said:


> Affiliate access with point conversions or a new program that combines access to Marriott/Vistana?  I can see this happening with a buy-in fee.  Integrated product can mean a lot of things, but I'd wager it does not include allowing existing DC owners access without some sort of fee.  IMHO that would not be extracting the most dollars out of the acquisition.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk



See post #203 and a number of posts in the page or so after that one for some speculation on a framework.

I don't think most of us are speculating that there will be a new program that fully-merges the multiple systems, at least for a few years, maybe ever. The speculation seems to be centering on them using the DC as an exchange mechanism. Vistana owners would have the *option *to enroll their weeks/FlexOptions in the DC for a fee, and whenever they elect their week/FlexOptions for DC points, they could use those points to book MVC resorts. The entire MVC portfolio would be available to them. If the VSE owners decide not to elect for DC points, they will still use the VSN systems just as they do today (just like legacy MVC weeks owners can still use the old weeks system if they so choose).

The reason we are speculating that they will not charge a fee to MVC owners in this scenario is that the only Vistana inventory that will become available to MVC owners will be that portion that is represented by VSE owners who decide to enroll and then elect their VSE ownership for DC points. Marriott has no way to guarantee what the response will be from VSE owners in making the decision to enroll and then elect for points. Since VSE has a high quality, mature points/internal exchange system already, it may be much harder to get VSE owners to pay to join the DC than it was to get MVC owners to join back in 2010 when Marriott had no pre-existing point system or true internal exchange system. As result, it may take a lot longer to build Vistana inventory into the Exchange system, making it harder to justify charging MVC owners since they would be getting access to considerably less "new" inventory than VSE owners would be.

If the program they develop is not what we are speculating it might be, and if that eventual structure would result in more substantial VSE inventory being guaranteed as being made available to MVC owners, then I could see them also asking for a buy-in from MVC owners.

The reality is, we're just guessing, and basing those guesses on what the CEO has said plus some fairly consistent statements that sales reps have been telling owners in updates over the last few weeks at several different resorts. We may be way off base, and only time will tell the real story.


----------



## SMB1

CPNY said:


> I think they would treat flex owners like DC owners if there was a combined program. These people are buying into the MVG portfolio so I don’t see them making them pay again. Contrary to what the MVC owners believe. The flex buyers today were not acquired they are paying mommy and daddy MVG just like DC owners did. Just because they are buying into Vistana they aren’t inferior. Which imo. Vistana is a better product anyway. But that’s what I say



This might be the case.  If flex means that Vistana weeks owners paid an additional fee to be part of the flex program like MVC weeks owners did to participate in DC, I can see complimentary membership in DC.  MVC now owns Vistana and should treat them as valued owners.  Now, depending on the extent of integration, they may say that an additional fee won't be necessary if the owned Vistana weeks would now be part of the DC, forfeiting the use of the flex program.  This could be a way to gain a bunch of Vistana inventory quickly.  If the Vistana owner didn't want to forfeit membership in the flex program then an additional fee might be required to join the DC as well. 

It may be clear that I really don't know the the ins and outs of Vistana and this post doesn't make any sense at all.  My knowledge of Vistana is limited to what I have picked up reading this thread.  I don't understand mandatory weeks, voluntary weeks, flex.  But if it does make sense, I'd say Vistana owners shouldn't have to pay again, just like enrolled MVC owners shouldn't have to pay again to access Vistana inventory that makes its way into the DC.    

Vistana weeks owners who did not enroll in the flex program would have to pay a fee to join the DC just like Marriott weeks owners who have not yet enrolled would.  

I know MI and MVC are separate entities, but to make a comparison to the hotel merger/takeover, Marriott has integrated both loyalty programs completely so that both Starwood and Marriott owners are treated equally.  I know many Bonvoy members are not thrilled, but neither Marriott nor Starwood customers feel the other got the better end of the deal.


----------



## pchung6

JIMinNC said:


> Since VSE has a high quality, mature points/internal exchange system already, it may be much harder to get VSE owners to pay to join the DC than it was to get MVC owners to join back in 2010 when Marriott had no pre-existing point system or true internal exchange system. As result, it may take a lot longer to build Vistana inventory into the Exchange system, making it harder to justify charging MVC owners since they would be getting access to considerably less "new" inventory than VSE owners would be.



Thank you. That’s exactly what I have been trying to say in this thread. We, Vistana owners, already have a well established VSN system and very beautiful managed resorts. There is no incentive for me and most Vistana owners to enroll MVC DC. What’s the point for me to join if I only want Westin now? I personal preference is VSN is better system, just my personal view. If Marriott really asks Vistana people to pay to join, good luck with that inventory beside these unsold weeks dumping in. I don’t see many will forfeit better Westin hotel for Marriott. I still think Marriott will charge everyone. I will just stay at my Westin/Sheraton, no matter what.


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## taffy19

JIMinNC said:


> Resort fees are so annoying. I think it’s deceptive pricing.
> 
> *Still can’t quite bring myself to use Airbnb or VRBO though.* I still prefer the predictability of quality at a name brand hotel. I may consider trying Airbnb somewhere like smaller villages in Europe if there are no good name brand hotel options, so maybe I’ll like it when I try it, but I don’t like surprises, so despite the annoying fees I tend to gravitate to hotels when I can’t use our ownerships.


I agree with you because I have seen some pictures that our friends showed us while we were on vacation and met up with them.  They had to find something else at a much higher price during high season.  It was awful and quite different from the website pictures except for the location.

We have used an ILG website for many years for hotel rooms or private condos that they managed and that worked out very well.  We always ended up with the view we paid for but the daily resort fees do add up.

I happened to end up at Trading Places tonight and when you look at the bottom of the page, you’ll see their ‘Partner Sites’ and the one we used is showing here too.  Quite interesting!

From there, I ended up here and checked that website too.

https://www.lovehomeswap.com/


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## CalGalTraveler

FWIW...AirBnB and VRBOs are being significantly curtailed or outlawed in major cities and resort areas. For example in Manhattan you can legally rent a timeshare, however if you rent a separate apartment or flat on AirBnB the landlord is breaking the law and you could find yourself without a place to stay.

Severe restrictions are being added in resort areas such as Miami and South Lake Tahoe where renters can get a $2000 fine for any kind of infraction reported by nosy vigilant neighbors who don't want renters in their neighborhood. Infractions could include having too many cars in the driveway, parking on the street, making any noise or using a hot tub after 10pm, or having more people in the home than the license allows. https://www.rgj.com/story/money/bus...ahoe-airbnb-ban-measure-t-lawsuit/2549226002/


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## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> I look at Flex owners almost just like VSE weeks owners, the only difference being the week owner has a specific Home Resort where they own a week/Options, whereas the Flex owner's Home Resort is a bundle of weeks/resorts rather than just one place. Weeks owners can book only at their Home Resort from 12-8 months, and its the same for Flex Owners, only they have a bundle of resorts where they can book from 12-8 months. All get access to all VSE resorts at 8 months. As a result, I don't see why they would require legacy VSE weeks owners to buy-into the DC but not require Flex to do the same. The DC is a separate program from VSN with different inventory, so I think both would have to pay a fee of between a few hundred and a couple thousand dollars to join if the DC is, in fact, what they use as the internal exchange mechanism.
> 
> The outstanding question is whether MVC owners would be required to also ante-up some additional cash to get access to the Vistana inventory that makes its way into the DC pool. Sales seems to be telling owners MVC won't have to pay again, but I guess that is still TBD. Since MVC will not be able to guarantee how much VSE inventory will wind up being enrolled in the DC (depends on the response from the VSE owners), it may be harder for them to justify a fee for MVC owners right now, whereas the VSE owners who "join" would seem to be getting immediate access to every week that exists in the DC already.


You yourself can look at them that way, but they are funneling new money into MVG. Why on earth would the mother ship want to alienate new paying customers? Especially since some word is out that DC owners will have free access? I say that under the speculation of MVC owners having free reign of all Vistana properties. By your logic customer X books a trip on expedia and stays in westin Lagunamar in August, they visit a sales presentation and decide we love westin always have. They love the brand they buy into westin flex at 56 thousand dollars! Ff 10 days (so you can’t use the rescission tactic to say rescind and by new lol) it’s now September 10th, and MVG announces its new joint program. You’re telling me in order for customers X who just gave MVG $56,000, access to other resorts, would have to buy a brand new DC plan?! Yeah cause that’s not shit PR. My argument is they could very well treat flex owners the same as DC owners with the speculation of no additional costs to join a joint program


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## CPNY

SMB1 said:


> This might be the case.  If flex means that Vistana weeks owners paid an additional fee to be part of the flex program like MVC weeks owners did to participate in DC, I can see complimentary membership in DC.  MVC now owns Vistana and should treat them as valued owners.  Now, depending on the extent of integration, they may say that an additional fee won't be necessary if the owned Vistana weeks would now be part of the DC, forfeiting the use of the flex program.  This could be a way to gain a bunch of Vistana inventory quickly.  If the Vistana owner didn't want to forfeit membership in the flex program then an additional fee might be required to join the DC as well.
> 
> It may be clear that I really don't know the the ins and outs of Vistana and this post doesn't make any sense at all.  My knowledge of Vistana is limited to what I have picked up reading this thread.  I don't understand mandatory weeks, voluntary weeks, flex.  But if it does make sense, I'd say Vistana owners shouldn't have to pay again, just like enrolled MVC owners shouldn't have to pay again to access Vistana inventory that makes its way into the DC.
> 
> Vistana weeks owners who did not enroll in the flex program would have to pay a fee to join the DC just like Marriott weeks owners who have not yet enrolled would.
> 
> I know MI and MVC are separate entities, but to make a comparison to the hotel merger/takeover, Marriott has integrated both loyalty programs completely so that both Starwood and Marriott owners are treated equally.  I know many Bonvoy members are not thrilled, but neither Marriott nor Starwood customers feel the other got the better end of the deal.


Let me start with I think it’s difficult to compare a timeshare point system to one of a loyalty program where their points are gifts. They throw points at people to retain their business you’re at the mercy of the master in that case. Contracts weren’t signed and there’s is little to zero repercussions in program changes and devaluations.

Moving onto Vistana weeks and flex program. It wasn’t set up like DC. You never have to enroll your week or pay any fee. Mandatory means the resort you bought into HAS to be enrolled in the VSN with access to book any resort with the assigned star options your deed is worth. Think of it a hybrid week/DC kind of ownership. The mandatory means that if I sell my developer purchase to you for 100 bucks you get that same benefit because contractually, that week has to be a member in the network. It’s a coveted deed.

Voluntary means ONLY the developer purchase is enrolled. So once it’s a resale you are no longer a member in the VSN and your star option allotment is only able to be booked back into your home resort where you own. Now you have priority 12-8 months at check in or exchange in II. You can pick those up for free on the marketplace.

Flex ownership is fairly new. Extremely new for westin. The Sheraton flex a few years while Westin and Aventura flex is the newest. Think of those as mini DC programs but only using your points in each resort in each brand. Those are also “voluntary” interests. If you bought from developer you get priority booking in the resorts in the flex you bought into then at 8 months you can book any resort in the network. Essentially you’re deeded into every week in the season you buy at every resort in the flex, with booking all resorts at 8 months. But the buyer on resale loses the right to book other resorts. 

Now, people didn’t have to enroll their weeks into these flex programs. They gave back their deeds and Vistana was giving them “Monopoly money” toward the purchase of a new flex program, which = a new developer purchase. A savvy owner who owned a mandatory week would never do that. But An owner who doesn’t know much would, especially when high pressure sales guys are telling you they will give you money toward a new purchase the customer might think that’s a good buy. Keep in mind, many owners go on their “update” thinking that’s what it is, an actual update to the resort and are hoping to hear they are putting in a new racket ball court or new water slides. That’s never the case. It’s a sales pitch and people get suckered into buying more. I digress. 

However you could always retro your deeded week. say if you bought a voluntary deed on resale and wanted those staroptions to be a member in the VSN to be booked anywhere else, then you would have to make a minimum developer purchase and they would re enroll that voluntary deed you picked up on resale and brought it into the network.

As an owner of mandatory properties I got on resale cheap with the ability to book in VSN I’m pretty content and can’t see myself giving up what i have and then giving them possibly thousands more  to book a Marriott. I’ll just rent my week to cover maint fees then rent a MVC property on the marketplace. Then I will always have the availability I want as well 

Like I tell people, if you’re not gonna buy resale, just rent on the marketplace, join timeshare rental groups on social media, check eBay! Sometimes you pay less than MF.


----------



## Dean

pchung6 said:


> Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex, Mexico Flex are still being sold today. Are you saying these just purchased Flex last week have to pay again?


They'll want to sell today as much as they can so of course they'd proceed with sales.  So yes I'm saying it's very possible those new owners might buy now only to see a major change in less than a year.  Hopefully they read the paperwork, including the POS, and know for sure what's guaranteed and what's not.



CPNY said:


> They may also want to keep things somewhat separate. Just because sales is telling everyone that DC owners will have access and no one else will unless they pay is fine. But that doesn’t mean they will be doing away with the Vistana portion and Westin/Sheraton properties. It doesn’t have to be one type of ownership. They could have DC program along with the flex programs long term. Marriott before the merger had other brands in their portfolio. A successful company has different brands and to the naked eye they are separate companies. Converse is owned by Nike. Most people don’t know that. Nike didn’t rebrand converse to be nike chuck Taylor’s. DC owners will have access because they already paid in, flex owners could as well, others will have to enroll. But that doesn’t mean there will only be one program. There could be one program that has other programs running under or along side it. Facts are no one knows. In the meantime I’ll be wanting to go back to my original resort.


Of course but having disposable items cross linked is not necessary and if anything, it's counterproductive.  Having timeshares linked can help sales and while there may be a few that are aware and prefer the separate system, those are going to be few and far between, esp for those buying in new.  Looking at this from a company standpoint, I have to think what saves them the most dollars and gives them the most sales without violating contracts/laws and stays committed to their direction.  Ultimately that's cutting out as much duplication and getting everything under one umbrella as much as possible plus being able to tout as many options & locations as possible.  My guess is they'll do that with any thing they can and they likely will spin off anything that's too difficult to do so.  So rolling everything under just the Marriott name or possibly Marriott & Westin is likely the closest to this thought.  And doing away completely with all current systems except the DC is also the closest it seems to me.  Then the question is how or if they can get there, that comes back to the legal requirements.  The other variable is whether they want to commit to the system long term so one reason to keep them separate is if they think they might deal them off at some point.  

I predict that within 5 years not all of these systems and/or resorts will be with us under the Marriott umbrella, maybe Wyndham or Bluegreen will be where they end up.  



JIMinNC said:


> The VSE owners who are participating here can clarify better than I can, but my understanding is since VSE has had points for a long time, at least some of the Vistana deeds have the points system as a part of their deeds in some fashion, so MVW may not have as much flexibility as they did with the old Marriott Weeks system. In the MVC case, the only thing really guaranteed by the deed was usage at your home resort. I think VSE may be a little different. It's complex.


It would depend on the wording of the POS.  Normally the POS gives total control to the reservation system without input from the owners for all the systems where I'm aware of the legalities, as long as they don't violate the other provisions.  On the surface I'd say that owners at a primarily points resort are most at risk for being assimilate directly into the DC system but if they aren't given a choice I would expect no fee other than the yearly club fees so one might expect those to possibly increase.


----------



## JIMinNC

Dean said:


> It would depend on the wording of the POS.  Normally the POS gives total control to the reservation system without input from the owners for all the systems where I'm aware of the legalities, as long as they don't violate the other provisions.  On the surface I'd say that owners at a primarily points resort are most at risk for being assimilate directly into the DC system but if they aren't given a choice I would expect no fee other than the yearly club fees so one might expect those to possibly increase.



See posts #276 and #285. At least some Vistana deeds appear to have specifically-assigned points provisions. It appears to be written into the deed and is not just a term of the CCRs that can be easily changed.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> You yourself can look at them that way, but they are funneling new money into MVG. Why on earth would the mother ship want to alienate new paying customers? Especially since some word is out that DC owners will have free access? *I say that under the speculation of MVC owners having free reign of all Vistana properties.* By your logic customer X books a trip on expedia and stays in westin Lagunamar in August, they visit a sales presentation and decide we love westin always have. They love the brand they buy into westin flex at 56 thousand dollars! Ff 10 days (so you can’t use the rescission tactic to say rescind and by new lol) it’s now September 10th, and MVG announces its new joint program. You’re telling me in order for customers X who just gave MVG $56,000, access to other resorts, would have to buy a brand new DC plan?! Yeah cause that’s not shit PR. My argument is they could very well treat flex owners the same as DC owners with the speculation of no additional costs to join a joint program



That's just the point...if the system is set up the way we have been speculating here, MVC owners will *not* have free rein of all Vistana properties (but VSE owners would, under this scenario, have full access to all MVC inventory in the DC Trust and the DC Exchange). MVC owners will be limited only to the intervals that VSE owners *choose* to enroll in the DC and then subsequently choose to actually elect for DC points (rather than using their home resort or using the VSN system).There also may be some portion of the unsold Flex inventory that they may have the right to make available at some point into the DC. So, Vistana inventory may be very limited in the DC for quite a while, and Marriott has no idea how much inventory VSE owners will choose to enroll and how fast. I think it will be very hard to charge MVC owners for access that can't be predicted. If they come up with a way to seed the DC with significant VSE inventory, then yes, I think it is reasonable/likely that they will want to extract a fee from MVC owners as well.

As far as the issue of the guy who buys Vistana Flex, and then less than a month later, voila, here comes the exchange program with MVC, I think they had that same situation in June 2010 when the DC was created. Marriott stopped selling weeks when that program was announced, but sold them up until it was announced. June 20, 2010 was the day that everything changed. I wasn't an owner back then, so some of the veterans here who were around back then can probably add some details on how that was handled. I'm sure there were people who bought a $75,000 Maui Ocean Club Lahaina Villas week a few days/weeks prior to 6/20/2010. My perception has always been that those folks had to pay to join the DC just like everyone else, but maybe not. Someone whose knowledge dates back that long will have to fill in those blanks.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> That's just the point...if the system is set up the way we have been speculating here, MVC owners will *not* have free rein of all Vistana properties (but VSE owners would, under this scenario, have full access to all MVC inventory in the DC Trust and the DC Exchange). MVC owners will be limited only to the intervals that VSE owners *choose* to enroll in the DC and then subsequently choose to actually elect for DC points (rather than using their home resort or using the VSN system).There also may be some portion of the unsold Flex inventory that they may have the right to make available at some point into the DC. So, Vistana inventory may be very limited in the DC for quite a while, and Marriott has no idea how much inventory VSE owners will choose to enroll and how fast. I think it will be very hard to charge MVC owners for access that can't be predicted. If they come up with a way to seed the DC with significant VSE inventory, then yes, I think it is reasonable/likely that they will want to extract a fee from MVC owners as well.
> 
> As far as the issue of the guy who buys Vistana Flex, and then less than a month later, voila, here comes the exchange program with MVC, I think they had that same situation in June 2010 when the DC was created. Marriott stopped selling weeks when that program was announced, but sold them up until it was announced. June 20, 2010 was the day that everything changed. I wasn't an owner back then, so some of the veterans here who were around back then can probably add some details on how that was handled. I'm sure there were people who bought a $75,000 Maui Ocean Club Lahaina Villas week a few days/weeks prior to 6/20/2010. My perception has always been that those folks had to pay to join the DC just like everyone else, but maybe not. Someone whose knowledge dates back that long will have to fill in those blanks.



Wow. That would be a tactic by Marriott to make them pay in after buying a week or two before, that’s shoddy. I’ve always liked the Vistana set up with having a deeded week and star option bookings in the network. It was the best of both worlds. One other thing I mentioned earlier in speculation about enrolling Vistana owners in, could be a caveat that the week has to be eligible to convert to bonvoy points in order to get in. That would mean it was a developer purchase. Granted I know bonvoy has nothing to do with this but for VSE owners, if you can convert it means it was a developer purchase. Even with a mandatory deed, you lose bonvoy point conversion. That’s how they could flag who is eligible for any type of enrollment or charging a smaller enrollment fee. 

I think you have a lot of savvy VSE owners who would think twice about  MVC. Personally, I’d look at gains and loses. If I really only have one MVC resort I’d want to trade into once in a blue moon I wouldn’t change. There are plenty of VSN Westin resorts I’ve yet to visit. My travel has been changing lately.


----------



## Dean

JIMinNC said:


> See posts #276 and #285. At least some Vistana deeds appear to have specifically-assigned points provisions. It appears to be written into the deed and is not just a term of the CCRs that can be easily changed.


But I'm sure there's a way around it, possibly a conversion factor.  One would have to look at ALL the specifics including the options to make changes.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> Wow. That would be a tactic by Marriott to make them pay in after buying a week or two before, that’s shoddy. I’ve always liked the Vistana set up with having a deeded week and star option bookings in the network. It was the best of both worlds.



Marriott was late to the points party so they had to overlay their points product on top of a very mature weeks system. That created issues. With adding VSE it’s even tougher because they will have to overlay an exchange system on top of a mature points/weeks system.



> I think you have a lot of savvy VSE owners who would think twice about  MVC. Personally, I’d look at gains and loses. If I really only have one MVC resort I’d want to trade into once in a blue moon I wouldn’t change. There are plenty of VSN Westin resorts I’ve yet to visit. My travel has been changing lately.



If there does wind up being some buy-in required for MVC owners I will be in the same boat. A lot of great Westins, but not that many new places to go, so it would mean evaluating the cost vs the potential gains.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> Marriott was late to the points party so they had to overlay their points product on top of a very mature weeks system. That created issues. With adding VSE it’s even tougher because they will have to overlay an exchange system on top of a mature points/weeks system.
> 
> 
> 
> If there does wind up being some buy-in required for MVC owners I will be in the same boat. A lot of great Westins, but not that many new places to go, so it would mean evaluating the cost vs the potential gains.



Right. The destinations aren’t  that different with the exception of Mexico. Is it worth it to spend thousands more to go to Mexico? I think not. It’s why I don’t see making people spend thousands to be able to have access. Many won’t see the would I spend 199 or some fee if I wanted to convert options to DC points for that booking? Sure why not. More people would do that. You’re just generating money on top of bookings left and right. It’s easier. Then you can sell the multiple flex and DC programs at your presentations. You can appeal to more and more people. They will sell more to new customers while making a ton of money on bookings.


----------



## sjsharkie

JIMinNC said:


> The reason we are speculating that they will not charge a fee to MVC owners in this scenario is that the only Vistana inventory that will become available to MVC owners will be that portion that is represented by VSE owners who decide to enroll and then elect their VSE ownership for DC points. Marriott has no way to guarantee what the response will be from VSE owners in making the decision to enroll and then elect for points. Since VSE has a high quality, mature points/internal exchange system already, it may be much harder to get VSE owners to pay to join the DC than it was to get MVC owners to join back in 2010 when Marriott had no pre-existing point system or true internal exchange system. As result, it may take a lot longer to build Vistana inventory into the Exchange system, making it harder to justify charging MVC owners since they would be getting access to considerably less "new" inventory than VSE owners would be.


And this is where we disagree.

I don't think they will give existing MVC owners any new access for free -- any new product access (i.e. Vistana or Hyatt) would involve some buy-in fee IMHO.  Marriott is looking to monetize this new acquisition, and they have a set of MVCI owners that they can now resell other product to.  I don't see how they gain financially by annexing only the Vistana owners (which just by # of intervals available for ownership have to be a small fraction of MVCI) for a fee.  This doesn't make fiscal sense.

Of course, all speculation.

-ryan


----------



## SueDonJ

JIMinNC said:


> ... As far as the issue of the guy who buys Vistana Flex, and then less than a month later, voila, here comes the exchange program with MVC, I think they had that same situation in June 2010 when the DC was created. Marriott stopped selling weeks when that program was announced, but sold them up until it was announced. June 20, 2010 was the day that everything changed. I wasn't an owner back then, so some of the veterans here who were around back then can probably add some details on how that was handled. I'm sure there were people who bought a $75,000 Maui Ocean Club Lahaina Villas week a few days/weeks prior to 6/20/2010. My perception has always been that those folks had to pay to join the DC just like everyone else, but maybe not. Someone whose knowledge dates back that long will have to fill in those blanks.



A few basics for review, especially for Vistana/Hyatt folks who may be offered Destination Club Enrollment at some point in the future:

At the DC inception on 6/20/10, they stopped selling Weeks for the US resorts but continued to sell Weeks for Caribbean and Euro resorts. All US and Caribbean Weeks purchased prior to that date were eligible for enrollment with tiered enrollment pricing:
- $595 for a single Week purchased direct from MVC
- $695 for multiple Weeks purchased direct
- $1,495 for a single Week purchased externally
- $1,995 for multiple Weeks purchased externally

Enrollment was opened on 6/18/12 to all direct and external Euro Weeks purchased prior, and extended to all Caribbean Weeks purchased direct between 6/20/10 and 6/18/12.

_**I think current pricing is $2,395 for any/all eligible Weeks - please let me know if that's changed so the FAQ can be updated.**_

_**The Asia-Pacific segment of MVC has since been incorporated into the DC, not sure about specific dates or eligibility rules for if anyone wants to add here.**_

All Weeks that were purchased direct prior to the above dates remain eligible for enrollment at current enrollment pricing. All Weeks purchased direct from Marriott Resales as a component of "hybrid packages" of Weeks and Points are eligible for enrollment.

Occasionally they run special enrollment offers with specific begin/end dates, when any of the eligibility rules may be suspended, or, official pricing may be reduced or waived.

DC ENROLLMENT OF EXISTING WEEKS **IS NOT** A PERMANENT OWNERSHIP EXCHANGE OF WEEKS FOR DC POINTS! At its core it's simply membership in the points-based DC Exchange Company which like every other exchange company requires an additional annual membership fee. It's based on the number of Trust Points that have been purchased and/or the number of Exchange Points for which your enrolled Weeks are eligible. The current DC Annual Fees are:
- $205 Owners and Select Members
- $245 Executive and Presidential Member
- $270 Chairman's Club Members

The annual individual resort Maintenance Fees for enrolled Weeks are NOT based on the allotted number of DC Points for those Weeks. Every same-interval Weeks Owner pays the same MF's regardless of enrollment. The only owners who pay MF's based on Points are those who purchased Trust Points, and Trust Points weren't available to purchase until after the DC was introduced.

Owners who wish to use their allotment of Points from enrolled Weeks in the DC Exchange Company must elect conversion from Weeks to Points on an annual basis. If unelected the Weeks can be used as always for home resort usage, exchange via II, exchange for Bonvoy Points, etc. Upon enrollment a corporate II account (which works the same as individual II accounts) is established for the Weeks which have been enrolled. A major reason that many owners enrolled their Weeks without ever planning to convert them to DC Points is because the DC Annual Fee covers many of the II transaction fees in those accounts (provided those exchanges are limited to Marriott resorts.)

*********
I'm still not seeing anything that says MVW will do anything with the Vistana/Hyatt owners that's more substantial than allowing them to enroll their owned Weeks or Points in the DC in a similar fashion to the way that they allow Marriott owners to do. At the DC inception it was obvious that the DC Exchange Company component of the company's overhaul was set up deliberately to allow other non-Marriott branded timeshare companies to play in that sandbox. If that's where all this speculation leads, I agree with those who say that Marriott owners have already been charged the enrollment fees and shouldn't have to pay anything more just because Vistana and Hyatt owners are being allowed the option to play in the same sandbox. Consider, the only Vistana/Hyatt intervals that would be exchangeable (is that a word? I don't know if that's a word.) to Marriott owners/DC members are those which MVW effectively owns because they were unsold at the time of the merger, and, those which would be voluntarily designated for non-home usage by their owners.


----------



## ocdb8r

CPNY said:


> Wow. That would be a tactic by Marriott to make them pay in after buying a week or two before, that’s shoddy.



Let's be clear though - for people who bought weeks from MVC, the cost to enroll in the DC was very small (I think $595).  A small one time price to pay.  I also add that in SVN, even for mandatory weeks, there are fees involved.  If you're not already a member you pay an enrollment fee when you buy a week (even resale) and there is the yearly membership fee.  I don't see that MVC has historically reamed owners any more or less than Vistana.  In fact the cost to join the DC for non-developer purchases was higher but sure as hell a lot more reasonable than what Vistana offers for "retroing" non-developer voluntary weeks by throwing thousands down the drain for a developer purchase.



CPNY said:


> Right. The destinations aren’t  that different with the exception of Mexico. Is it worth it to spend thousands more to go to Mexico? I think not. It’s why I don’t see making people spend thousands to be able to have access.



I'm not sure which audience you're speaking about here.  For (us) SVN members, gaining access to the DC program would massively increase the number of resorts we can book at and add quite a few new domestic and international destinations.  On the MVC side, DC participants gain access to Mexico, Harborside and some good ski resorts (I think MVC's ski resorts outside Salt Lake are quite poor).  Hawaii, CA Deserts, AZ, Myrtle Beach and Orlando are a wash.  St. John and Vistana Beach are somewhat unique.


----------



## pchung6

Dean said:


> But I'm sure there's a way around it, possibly a conversion factor.  One would have to look at ALL the specifics including the options to make changes.



Really there is a way around it to change something on my WKORVN OF deed? Someone is ready to be sued? My deed is my deed is my house of what I own, I don’t think anyone can touch it

Marriott will ask everybody to pay and MVC DC will just be one of the systems under corporate management. All of the current systems, DC, Trust, VSN, Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex, Hyatt week, Hyatt points will continue to function just as today. Marriott will sell interested owners the option to cross booking for an enrollment fee. That’s it, they will want to keep all separated and sell different segment of buyers different products.  It would not surprise me one day they drop Marriott’s name and just rename the company to Vistana Vacation Club, and have many different brands within it.


----------



## SueDonJ

pchung6 said:


> Really there is a way around it to change something on my WKORVN OF deed? Someone is ready to be sued? My deed is my deed is my house of what I own, I don’t think anyone can touch it ...



If DC Enrollment is offered to Vistana and Hyatt owners as it was to Marriott owners, it will not affect the terms of your deed.



pchung6 said:


> Marriott will ask everybody to pay and MVC DC will just be one of the systems under corporate management. All of the current systems, DC, Trust, VSN, Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex, Hyatt week, Hyatt points will continue to function just as today. Marriott will sell interested owners the option to cross booking for an enrollment fee. That’s it, they will want to keep all separated and sell different segment of buyers different products.  It would not surprise me one day they drop Marriott’s name and just rename the company to Vistana Vacation Club, and have many different brands within it.



I would be very surprised if after all is said and done with Marriott's purchase of Vistana and Hyatt, their choice will be to drop the Marriott name in favor of Vistana. Very, very, VERY surprised. A name change, sure, that's always a possibility, but not to that of a former competitor which they've effectively absorbed.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Agree with @SueDonJ that the likelihood of using a former name is low. However I could envision a new corporate name with hotel named brand programs underneath because of pressure from Hyatt to remove Marriott from the corporate name.

There is nothing that entitles MVC points trust owners and VSN Flex/Deed owners access to more properties beyond what they initially paid for. To avoid lawsuits, the trend is to "rope off" legacy programs and require an upgrade to gain access to the newest properties in the portfolio. We see this in various forms at DVC (Riviera) and HGVC (bHC - major cities).  Why wouldn't MVC do the same and charge an upgrade for everyone?

Initially the buy-in may be low for all: MVC because of fewer VSN properties in the trust initially, however they will be getting in at "construction pricing" as the portfolio grows. For VSN they need to aggressively enroll VSN enrollment to build inventory in the trust. Even with a low buy-in the revenue impact may be huge because of volume.


----------



## pchung6

SueDonJ said:


> If DC Enrollment is offered to Vistana and Hyatt owners as it was to Marriott owners, it will not affect the terms of your deed.



Agree, DC enrollment has no affect to the deed as long as they continue to offer the mandatory VSN which is written on the deed.



SueDonJ said:


> I would be very surprised if after all is said and done with Marriott's purchase of Vistana and Hyatt, their choice will be to drop the Marriott name in favor of Vistana. Very, very, VERY surprised. A name change, sure, that's always a possibility, but not to that of a former competitor which they've effectively absorbed.



I really just don’t see they can keep Marriott if they still want to manage so many brands under including Hyatt and few Hawaiian brands.  One way is to sell Hyatt but looks like Hyatt wants to collect their licensing fee first.  Don’t forget just a while ago they dropped Starwood name in favor of Vistana too. Vistana is just a more neutral name that can help to eliminate unnecessary business challenges. Well, just my guessing and I still don’t see they will want to just let DC to absorb other systems, too big to manage? Too many problems with many unhappy owners? One size fits all? VSN is really just fine by itself if not better.


----------



## SueDonJ

CalGalTraveler said:


> Agree with @SueDonJ that the likelihood of using a former name is low. However I could envision a new corporate name with hotel named brand programs underneath because of pressure from Hyatt to remove Marriott from the corporate name. ...



I just don't see Marriott ever choosing to give up its name. That family is still involved, and still very proud of the company they've built. (Justified, in my opinion.)



CalGalTraveler said:


> There is nothing that entitles MVC points trust owners and VSN Flex/Deed owners access to more properties beyond what they paid for. To avoid lawsuits, the trend is to "rope off" legacy programs and require an upgrade to gain access to the newest properties. We see this in various forms at DVC (Riviera) and HGVC (bHC).  Why wouldn't MVC do the same?



But Marriott *offers* participation in the Destination Club exchange company to its owners subject to the stated eligibility and usage rules, and none of it requires forfeiture of any entitlements of the original ownerships. Why would they go through all the rigamarole of "roping off" this one's usage, that one's exclusivity, the other one's entitlements, etc when the simplest solution, which makes them bucketloads of money already, is to just offer enrollment in the exchange company that they own and manage? I really see all this speculation as a repeat of what Marriott owners were going through a decade ago, when in the end it turned out to be a relatively simple offer to join a new exchange company. It brings added usage value for many, others hate it, but it's not reinventing the wheel and it's not a forced change in ownership.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

SueDonJ said:


> But Marriott *offers* participation in the Destination Club exchange company to its owners subject to the stated eligibility and usage rules, and none of it requires forfeiture of any entitlements of the original ownerships. Why would they go through all the rigamarole of "roping off" this one's usage, that one's exclusivity, the other one's entitlements, etc when the simplest solution, which makes them bucketloads of money already, is to just offer enrollment in the exchange company that they own and manage? I really see all this speculation as a repeat of what Marriott owners were going through a decade ago, when in the end it turned out to be a relatively simple offer to join a new exchange company. It brings added usage value for many, others hate it, but it's not reinventing the wheel and it's not a forced change in ownership.



Because of legal complexities they may not be able to simply add VSN deeds or flex to the existing trust so may end up with several trust pools anyway. Offshore VSN such as Mexico, Bahamas and St. John (?) may have additional requirements similar to the international MVC properties for DC that were not included.

To the Super DC program user it may look like one pool via a reservation system overlay and additional legal paperwork.  This will cost money to develop and manage infrastructure and train staff. I don't think MVC will give this away for free to existing DC owners given the costs to develop this program and acquisition. It's not simple.

Existing DC owners will have access to the MVC properties in the trust they initially paid for but properties outside of MVC will be roped off.  Access to additional properties VSN, Hyatt etc. will cost more.  And they will charge all owners MVC, VSN, Hyatt to pay for these overlay costs.  Time will tell for sure.


----------



## pchung6

It seems there will be legal issue to add any VSN Westin Mexico resorts to MVC DC?


----------



## JIMinNC

sjsharkie said:


> And this is where we disagree.
> 
> I don't think they will give existing MVC owners any new access for free -- any new product access (i.e. Vistana or Hyatt) would involve some buy-in fee IMHO.  Marriott is looking to monetize this new acquisition, and they have a set of MVCI owners that they can now resell other product to.  I don't see how they gain financially by annexing only the Vistana owners (which just by # of intervals available for ownership have to be a small fraction of MVCI) for a fee.  This doesn't make fiscal sense.
> 
> Of course, all speculation.
> 
> -ryan



What you say makes perfect sense, but I don’t see how they can guarantee how much VSE inventory will be made available to MVC owners. So that makes it harder to charge for that. See SueDonJ’s post above. It explains the issue well.


----------



## Ken555

Well, that was a fun new 100 posts.

My wish is that whatever they do it will be simple to understand, fair, and respect existing ownerships. Of course, it’s Marriott, so I’m not too hopeful that will happen.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SueDonJ

CalGalTraveler said:


> Because of legal complexities they may not be able to simply add VSN deeds or flex to the existing trust so may end up with several trust pools anyway. To the Super DC (Elite level?) program user it may look like one pool via a reservation system overlay and additional legal paperwork.  This will cost money to develop and manage. I don't think MVC will give this away for free to existing DC owners given the costs.  Existing DC owners will have access to the trust they initially paid for but it will be roped off.  Additional properties VSN, Hyatt etc. will cost more.



Marriott's Destination Club has three components - the Trust to which Marriott-owned intervals can be conveyed, the Trust Points that correlate to those conveyances in 250-Point increments defined as "Beneficial Interests," and, the separate MVCD Exchange Company through which the vast majority of DC Points-based reservations are managed.

I agree with you that Marriott has to deal with legal issues that may require herculean efforts to overcome insofar as conveying existing unsold already-Trust-based Vistana/Hyatt intervals, that Marriott now owns as a result of the merger, to the DC Trust. But those issues don't impact owners of existing sold Vistana/Hyatt intervals, whether Weeks or Points, if what's ahead for them is a relatively simple offer to enroll their intervals in the DC Exchange Company. That's where my focus is, on how existing owners may be impacted. And I fail to see how or why Marriott owners who have already paid the enrollment fee to be members in that exchange company should pay additional fees just because owners in other-branded timeshares might be given the same option.

I guess I think of it in terms of what happened when the separate-company Ritz-Carlton-branded owners were offered the option to enroll in the DC and we MVC owners didn't have to pay a fee to gain access to that inventory, even though there had never been cross-pollination of the brands despite them both coming under the Marriott umbrella. For what it's worth, some of that inventory is available only to those with higher status in the DC, so I can definitely see Marriott placing a similar premium within the DC on the upper-tier Vistana and Hyatt inventory.


----------



## SueDonJ

pchung6 said:


> It seems there will be legal issue to add any VSN Westin Mexico resorts to MVC DC?


Could be, sure. It may well be that the international legalities will prevent the Mexico resorts from being rolled out as DC-eligible at the outset, or even preclude them ever being a component.


----------



## controller1

SueDonJ said:


> I just don't see Marriott ever choosing to give up its name. That family is still involved, and still very proud of the company they've built. (Justified, in my opinion.)



The name change previously referenced was pertaining to the timeshare company.  Is that what you're referencing and are stating the Marriott family is still involved with the timeshare company?


----------



## SueDonJ

Ken555 said:


> Well, that was a fun new 100 posts.
> 
> My wish is that whatever they do it will be simple to understand, fair, and respect existing ownerships. Of course, it’s Marriott, so I’m not too hopeful that will happen.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Consider yourself fortunate that you have the experience of Marriott folks to help you through it. We had YEARS of speculation based on some really whacked-out crazy stuff from sales presentations that culminated in Marriott dropping all the legal docs and turning our timeshare world upside-down overnight on 6/20/10. Stick with us - we're happy to help.


----------



## SueDonJ

controller1 said:


> The name change previously referenced was pertaining to the timeshare company.  Is that what you're referencing and are stating the Marriott family is still involved with the timeshare company?



Yes. Since it split in Nov '11, the formal name is now Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC on the exchange,) family members sit on its board, and executives from the former parent company, Marriott, Int'l (MAR) came over. It's still very much a "Marriott" baby.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@SueDonJ Thanks for clarifying that you were referring to DC enrollment as an exchange opportunity. Perhaps that makes it much simpler since no deeds or entitlements change hands. I hope any fees will be extremely low initially to get rapid enrollment by VSN owners. I would pay a nominal amount to enroll for the ability to rent trust points as we will rarely trade our Westin OF in Maui and would more likely rent it out for cash.

If they charge too much however, we will use VSN Staroptions/HGVC points/Interval/RCI as alternative exchange platforms as "good enough." (i.e. no incremental cost other than $239 exchange fee). We could also rent the occasional MVC property via II getaways or on Redweek/Tug. So we would have to look at the annual cost of enrolling compared to an occasional rental and see if enrolling is worth it compared these alternatives.


----------



## SueDonJ

CalGalTraveler said:


> @SueDonJ Thanks for clarifying that you were referring to DC enrollment as an exchange opportunity. Perhaps that makes it much simpler since no deeds or entitlements change hands. I hope any fees will be extremely low initially to get rapid enrollment by VSN owners. I would pay a nominal amount to enroll for the ability to rent trust points as we will rarely trade our Westin OF in Maui and would more likely rent it out for cash. If they charge too much however, we will use VSN Staroptions/HGVC points/Interval/RCI as alternative exchange platforms as "good enough."



You're welcome. I really meant what I said in my response to Ken, above. We know there's the potential for massive confusion, and we're happy to help. 

About DC Points rentals - it really is very convenient to be able to rent DC Points, have them deposited into your own account and thus have full control over them and any reservations made with them. But there is still the option of DC Members making reservations with their points and offering those reservations for rent. Keep it in mind if you're offered enrollment and decline it, but find yourself needing a res that's only available via the DC.


----------



## controller1

SueDonJ said:


> Yes. Since it split in Nov '11, the formal name is now Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC on the exchange,) family members sit on its board, and executives from the former parent company, Marriott, Int'l (MAR) came over. It's still very much a "Marriott" baby.



Not to quibble, but since Investor Relations was my former job, I've done some research.  Yes, the top two executives came from Marriott and also serve on VAC's board but it does not appear any current board member is a Marriott family member.

On another subject, thanks so much for your help in assisting us Vistana folks to understand the MVC system.


----------



## JIMinNC

SueDonJ said:


> Could be, sure. It may well be that the international legalities will prevent the Mexico resorts from being rolled out as DC-eligible at the outset, or even preclude them ever being a component.



I think the Mexico resorts will have to stay in a separate Trust, but I see no reason they can’t participate seamlessly in the Exchange Company just as the MVC resorts in Europe do.


----------



## Ken555

SueDonJ said:


> Consider yourself fortunate that you have the experience of Marriott folks to help you through it. We had YEARS of speculation based on some really whacked-out crazy stuff from sales presentations that culminated in Marriott dropping all the legal docs and turning our timeshare world upside-down overnight on 6/20/10. Stick with us - we're happy to help.



Appreciated. 

Of course, I’ve been on TUG since 2005 and was here during the Marriott year of confusion. I remember it, though obviously not all the details. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SueDonJ

controller1 said:


> Not to quibble, but since Investor Relations was my former job, I've done some research.  Yes, the top two executives came from Marriott and also serve on VAC's board but it does not appear any current board member is a Marriott family member.
> 
> On another subject, thanks so much for your help in assisting us Vistana folks to understand the MVC system.


Quibbling is okay; it sends me to google. 

Thanks for the correction. VAC started with at least one family member on the board, Deborah Marriott Harrison, but she's now on Bonvoy's board, I think? I couldn't find a simple historical chart of VAC board members but I know that during calls and other official forums the company still talks about a dedication to the business culture that the family started and represents. I really will be surprised if the company doesn't continue to keep the "Marriott" tag in its name, not least because they pay a decent hunk of money to the former parent company for licensing fees.


----------



## bazzap

SueDonJ said:


> Quibbling is okay; it sends me to google.
> 
> Thanks for the correction. VAC started with at least one family member on the board, Deborah Marriott Harrison, but she's now on Bonvoy's board, I think? I couldn't find a simple historical chart of VAC board members but I know that during calls and other official forums the company still talks about a dedication to the business culture that the family started and represents. I really will be surprised if the company doesn't continue to keep the "Marriott" tag in its name, not least because they pay a decent hunk of money to the former parent company for licensing fees.


I haven’t seen a recent update, but less than 2 years ago Bill Marriott Jr was still the largest individual shareholder of VAC.
So although the Marriott family have no representative on the Executive Leadership team, they still have a very significant direct interest in the company.


----------



## SteelerGal

Most large companies keep segmentation because of the value of a brand.  Also it’s easy to spin off a brand that no longer fits well in the portfolio.  
MVC is already consolidating the backroom. Calls to call centers are Marriott call centers. Title Department is Marriott’s.   Some of the Hyatt properties are seeing an increase of Marriott employees.  So once you have HR, AP, Purchasing, Sales, Marketing, etc under one vision, you now need to create the binding product of all divisions.  And that’s where we are at today.


----------



## bazzap

SueDonJ said:


> A few basics for review, especially for Vistana/Hyatt folks who may be offered Destination Club Enrollment at some point in the future:
> 
> At the DC inception on 6/20/10, they stopped selling Weeks for the US resorts but continued to sell Weeks for Caribbean and Euro resorts. All US and Caribbean Weeks purchased prior to that date were eligible for enrollment with tiered enrollment pricing:
> - $595 for a single Week purchased direct from MVC
> - $695 for multiple Weeks purchased direct
> - $1,495 for a single Week purchased externally
> - $1,995 for multiple Weeks purchased externally
> 
> Enrollment was opened on 6/18/12 to all direct and external Euro Weeks purchased prior, and extended to all Caribbean Weeks purchased direct between 6/20/10 and 6/18/12.
> 
> _**I think current pricing is $2,395 for any/all eligible Weeks - please let me know if that's changed so the FAQ can be updated.**_
> 
> _**The Asia-Pacific segment of MVC has since been incorporated into the DC, not sure about specific dates or eligibility rules for if anyone wants to add here.**_
> 
> All Weeks that were purchased direct prior to the above dates remain eligible for enrollment at current enrollment pricing. All Weeks purchased direct from Marriott Resales as a component of "hybrid packages" of Weeks and Points are eligible for enrollment.
> 
> Occasionally they run special enrollment offers with specific begin/end dates, when any of the eligibility rules may be suspended, or, official pricing may be reduced or waived.
> 
> DC ENROLLMENT OF EXISTING WEEKS **IS NOT** A PERMANENT OWNERSHIP EXCHANGE OF WEEKS FOR DC POINTS! At its core it's simply membership in the points-based DC Exchange Company which like every other exchange company requires an additional annual membership fee. It's based on the number of Trust Points that have been purchased and/or the number of Exchange Points for which your enrolled Weeks are eligible. The current DC Annual Fees are:
> - $205 Owners and Select Members
> - $245 Executive and Presidential Member
> - $270 Chairman's Club Members
> 
> The annual individual resort Maintenance Fees for enrolled Weeks are NOT based on the allotted number of DC Points for those Weeks. Every same-interval Weeks Owner pays the same MF's regardless of enrollment. The only owners who pay MF's based on Points are those who purchased Trust Points, and Trust Points weren't available to purchase until after the DC was introduced.
> 
> Owners who wish to use their allotment of Points from enrolled Weeks in the DC Exchange Company must elect conversion from Weeks to Points on an annual basis. If unelected the Weeks can be used as always for home resort usage, exchange via II, exchange for Bonvoy Points, etc. Upon enrollment a corporate II account (which works the same as individual II accounts) is established for the Weeks which have been enrolled. A major reason that many owners enrolled their Weeks without ever planning to convert them to DC Points is because the DC Annual Fee covers many of the II transaction fees in those accounts (provided those exchanges are limited to Marriott resorts.)
> 
> *********
> I'm still not seeing anything that says MVW will do anything with the Vistana/Hyatt owners that's more substantial than allowing them to enroll their owned Weeks or Points in the DC in a similar fashion to the way that they allow Marriott owners to do. At the DC inception it was obvious that the DC Exchange Company component of the company's overhaul was set up deliberately to allow other non-Marriott branded timeshare companies to play in that sandbox. If that's where all this speculation leads, I agree with those who say that Marriott owners have already been charged the enrollment fees and shouldn't have to pay anything more just because Vistana and Hyatt owners are being allowed the option to play in the same sandbox. Consider, the only Vistana/Hyatt intervals that would be exchangeable (is that a word? I don't know if that's a word.) to Marriott owners/DC members are those which MVW effectively owns because they were unsold at the time of the merger, and, those which would be voluntarily designated for non-home usage by their owners.


Re: the Asia-Pacific segment of MVC

I will have to check the exact date, but I believe that enrolment was opened in August 2016 to all direct and external Phuket Beach Club (PBC) Weeks purchased prior
(this was the only resort in the Region ever to be sold as weeks)
There was an introductory price to enrol for $595, which increased after 31st December  2016.
For those of us who already had weeks in the US / Europe enrolled, this fee was waived.

Totally separately, the Asia Pacific (AP) Points Programme preceded the DC Points Programme.
Others can comment on this far better than me, but for example
PBC weeks could be overlayed into the AP Points Programme
The AP Points had to be aligned with the DC Points Programme, as their value previously was in a 10:1 ratio
The AP and DC Points Programmes continue to run separately, but do now interwork and each or both can be used to book all MVC resorts.
There are also discretely identified Indonesia (Bali) and Australia Points Owners, but don’t even start to ask me about these complexities.


----------



## CPNY

ocdb8r said:


> Let's be clear though - for people who bought weeks from MVC, the cost to enroll in the DC was very small (I think $595).  A small one time price to pay.  I also add that in SVN, even for mandatory weeks, there are fees involved.  If you're not already a member you pay an enrollment fee when you buy a week (even resale) and there is the yearly membership fee.  I don't see that MVC has historically reamed owners any more or less than Vistana.  In fact the cost to join the DC for non-developer purchases was higher but sure as hell a lot more reasonable than what Vistana offers for "retroing" non-developer voluntary weeks by throwing thousands down the drain for a developer purchase.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure which audience you're speaking about here.  For (us) SVN members, gaining access to the DC program would massively increase the number of resorts we can book at and add quite a few new domestic and international destinations.  On the MVC side, DC participants gain access to Mexico, Harborside and some good ski resorts (I think MVC's ski resorts outside Salt Lake are quite poor).  Hawaii, CA Deserts, AZ, Myrtle Beach and Orlando are a wash.  St. John and Vistana Beach are somewhat unique.



MVC reemed their owners by booking other destination more difficult than VSN owners had it. Also, domestic locations like NJ? Really it’s Spain and Thailand. Neither place I would stay in a timeshare. Considering you can get 5 star resorts for less than you pay in annual fees in Thailand. 

As far as resale DC I saw one on eBay 2500 points, the buy in price of 3,000 + 7500 enrollment. How nice


----------



## controller1

bazzap said:


> I haven’t seen a recent update, but less than 2 years ago Bill Marriott Jr was still the largest individual shareholder of VAC.
> So although the Marriott family have no representative on the Executive Leadership team, they still have a very significant direct interest in the company.



Looks like Bill Marriott Jr has sold all of his shares.  As of mid-May (the latest reporting period) the six largest shareholders (both institutional and individual) with Marriott connections are:
David S Marriott
Juliana B Marriott Marital Trust
Avery Nicole Marriott
Stephen Blake Marriott
JWM Family Enterprises
Richard E Marriott

Together they own approximately 11.8 million shares which is over 26% of the outstanding shares.  So yes, @SueDonJ I would say the Marriotts do have a substantial interest in VAC!


----------



## TravelTime

Is this good news or bad news? How do you interpret it?


----------



## controller1

TravelTime said:


> Is this good news or bad news? How do you interpret it?



If your question is directed at the Marriott family ownership, it would be hard to say whether it is good or bad.  It is simply a statement that VAC's board members are always cognizant that over a quarter of their shareholders carry the name Marriott.


----------



## SueDonJ

controller1 said:


> Looks like Bill Marriott Jr has sold all of his shares.  As of mid-May (the latest reporting period) the six largest shareholders (both institutional and individual) with Marriott connections are:
> David S Marriott
> Juliana B Marriott Marital Trust
> Avery Nicole Marriott
> Stephen Blake Marriott
> JWM Family Enterprises
> Richard E Marriott
> 
> Together they own approximately 11.8 million shares which is over 26% of the outstanding shares.  So yes, @SueDonJ I would say the Marriotts do have a substantial interest in VAC!



I think they're all born with a "Protect the Brand!" gene! Thanks to Barry for mentioning the shareholder aspect - it never occurred to me.


----------



## CPNY

Hmm, I wonder if there is an enrollment that everyone talks about would you have to pay a yearly membership fee? Would I get hit with a VSN and a DC membership? I just it doesn’t make it so difficult or make my resale purchases useless or difficult to give away


----------



## TravelTime

I doubt we will get a $595 enrollment as this is 10 years later. The economy has gone up at least 3x since 2010 when we hit rock bottom. So I would except take 2010 enrollment fees x 3 per week. My guess is $1800 per week you want to enroll and possibly discounts to make it more cost effective if you want to enroll more weeks. I hope they also allow us to enroll some post-2010 weeks at the same time.


----------



## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> Hmm, I wonder if there is an enrollment that everyone talks about would you have to pay a yearly membership fee? Would I get hit with a VSN and a DC membership? I just it doesn’t make it so difficult or make my resale purchases useless or difficult to give away



From my post #294 above, yes, there is an annual fee for membership in the DC Exchange Company.

>>DC ENROLLMENT OF EXISTING WEEKS **IS NOT** A PERMANENT OWNERSHIP EXCHANGE OF WEEKS FOR DC POINTS! At its core it's simply membership in the points-based DC Exchange Company which like every other exchange company requires an additional annual membership fee. It's based on the number of Trust Points that have been purchased and/or the number of Exchange Points for which your enrolled Weeks are eligible. The current DC Annual Fees are:
- $205 Owners and Select Members
- $245 Executive and Presidential Member
- $270 Chairman's Club Members<<

Consider, that annual fee offsets many transaction fees if owners enroll their Weeks but continue using II as their exchange company, because owners aren't charged the basic II transaction fees if they exchange their enrolled Weeks to Marriott resorts via their DC-related corporate II accounts.

As for resale value, most Marriott owners were very concerned at the outset to learn that enrollment of their Weeks would NOT transfer to new owners upon resale, and many thought that the inability of new owners to re-enroll them (because they'd then be ineligible as external resales) would absolutely crater the Marriott external resale market. It's had some effect but not nearly the catastrophic disaster that was predicted, mainly because un-enrolled Marriott Weeks still have very good usage value and exchange value within II.


----------



## bazzap

CPNY said:


> MVC reemed their owners by booking other destination more difficult than VSN owners had it. Also, domestic locations like NJ? Really it’s Spain and Thailand. Neither place I would stay in a timeshare. Considering you can get 5 star resorts for less than you pay in annual fees in Thailand.
> 
> As far as resale DC I saw one on eBay 2500 points, the buy in price of 3,000 + 7500 enrollment. How nice


I would really like to know where in Phuket Thailand you can get a quality 2 Bedroom apartment, in a luxury 5 star resort, with all the facilities and amenities you might wish for, in extensive landscaped tropical gardens, on an 11 mile stretch of protected National Park beach for a little over $150 per night?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

In 2010 what was the enrollment fee for an EOY? The same? If so, that would double the cost for 1/2 a week annually.  Hope they reduce this for EOY owners.


----------



## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> ... As far as resale DC I saw one on eBay 2500 points, the buy in price of 3,000 + 7500 enrollment. How nice



Just to note, that would have been a resale of purchased Trust Points and not a Week enrolled in the DC. Trust Points are expensive to purchase and then require additional fees by the purchaser upon resale in order to gain access to every benefit. Marriott TUGgers will be the first to tell you that purchased Trust Points are an expensive timeshare option no matter how you buy them, but there is still somewhat of a discount resale v. direct and they're still worth the price if you're aware of all the fees and know how to get the best usage value out of them.

Again, enrollment of Weeks does NOT transfer upon resale, and the Week is then ineligible for enrollment because it's being purchased after the external resale cut-off date, so if somebody tells you they're selling you a Week that's enrolled in the DC, run away very far and very fast.


----------



## CPNY

bazzap said:


> View attachment 12818
> I would really like to know where in Phuket Thailand you can get a quality 2 Bedroom apartment, in a luxury 5 star resort, with all the facilities and amenities you might wish for, in extensive landscaped tropical gardens, on an 11 mile stretch of protected National Park beach for a little over $150 per night?


I wouldn’t stay in Phuket lol. So many other amazing places in Thailand and all of SE Asia that aren’t timeshares. But since you asked, there are plenty. Just do a google search. I wouldn’t fly to Thailand and spend a whole week in Phuket, 3-4 nights maybe, then move along. So many uninhabited islands in SE Asia that are better. Thailand doesn’t appeal to everyone, also I hear it’s difficult to book? Is it not in the DC program?


----------



## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> Just to note, that would have been a resale of purchased Trust Points and not a Week enrolled in the DC. Trust Points are expensive to purchase and then require additional fees by the purchaser upon resale in order to gain access to every benefit. Marriott TUGgers will be the first to tell you that purchased Trust Points are an expensive timeshare option no matter how you buy them, but there is still somewhat of a discount resale v. direct and they're still worth the price if you're aware of all the fees and know how to get the best usage value out of them.
> 
> Again, enrollment of Weeks does NOT transfer upon resale, and the Week is then ineligible for enrollment because it's being purchased after the external resale cut-off date, so if somebody tells you they're selling you a Week that's enrolled in the DC, run away very far and very fast.


So for the poster who talked about Vistana reeming owners to retro a voluntary week back into the network with a developer purchase, they failed to see that you can’t even enroll a deeded MVC week today. So the only advantage to buying a resale week from MVC would be if you really wanted to go back to that resort or exchange in II?


----------



## CPNY

bazzap said:


> View attachment 12818
> I would really like to know where in Phuket Thailand you can get a quality 2 Bedroom apartment, in a luxury 5 star resort, with all the facilities and amenities you might wish for, in extensive landscaped tropical gardens, on an 11 mile stretch of protected National Park beach for a little over $150 per night?



Your annual fees are only 1000 a year?


----------



## bazzap

CPNY said:


> I wouldn’t stay in Phuket lol. So many other amazing places in Thailand and all of SE Asia that aren’t timeshares. But since you asked, there are plenty. Just do a google search. I wouldn’t fly to Thailand and spend a whole week in Phuket, 3-4 nights maybe, then move along. So many uninhabited islands in SE Asia that are better. Thailand doesn’t appeal to everyone, also I hear it’s difficult to book? Is it not in the DC program?


I am not suggesting that Thailand does appeal to everyone and there are many other parts of SE Asia well worth visiting, but that wasn’t the question.
From my experience, it is not difficult to book. I book it every year with weeks, DC Points, Interval exchanges and getaways and Private Rentals.
It is in the DC Programme.
I don’t need to google search prices, as I regularly track 5 star resorts for extensions to our Phuket trips and I don’t find anywhere comparable at a similar price, which is why I asked.


----------



## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> So for the poster who talked about Vistana reeming owners to retro a voluntary week back into the network with a developer purchase, they failed to see that you can’t even enroll a deeded MVC week today. So the only advantage to buying a resale week from MVC would be if you really wanted to go back to that resort or exchange in II?



Marriott only sells DC Trust Points direct now. You can't buy a Week direct from MVW unless it's part of what's called a "hybrid package," i.e. a combo of Trust Points and a resale Week being brokered by Marriott Resales, and those Weeks ARE automatically DC-enrolled upon the purchase. (The hybrid packages, if you're interested, give buyers the most economical per-Point price of any resale option available.)

It's the Weeks being sold on the external resale market that aren't eligible under current eligibility rules for DC Enrollment, and like I said, many, many Marriott owners are very happy owning unenrolled Weeks for home usage and II exchanging via individual II accounts. In fact many original owners of Marriott Weeks are perfectly happy having evaluated and declined when DC Enrollment was first offered. Despite all the machinations and legal hurdles involved for corporate MVW in establishing the Trust after they'd been in Weeks for so long, and in figuring out how to incorporate existing owners of Weeks, for those of us who owned Weeks at the time they rolled out the DC it really is basically just another exchange option.


----------



## Dean

pchung6 said:


> Really there is a way around it to change something on my WKORVN OF deed? Someone is ready to be sued? My deed is my deed is my house of what I own, I don’t think anyone can touch it
> 
> Marriott will ask everybody to pay and MVC DC will just be one of the systems under corporate management. All of the current systems, DC, Trust, VSN, Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex, Hyatt week, Hyatt points will continue to function just as today. Marriott will sell interested owners the option to cross booking for an enrollment fee. That’s it, they will want to keep all separated and sell different segment of buyers different products.  It would not surprise me one day they drop Marriott’s name and just rename the company to Vistana Vacation Club, and have many different brands within it.


Having seen legal documents with many timeshares I would presume there are ways to make changes, lots of them.  The deed itself is likely fairly generic, you'd have to go back to the POS to see what options they have.  As a rule they can make a LOT of changes in the reservation arena of which this applies.  It sounds like you're making assumptions about what they can and can't do, as am I.  To discuss the details we'd have to do so around the POS wording, state laws and the like.


----------



## bazzap

CPNY said:


> Your annual fees are only 1000 a year?


Yes easily less than £1000 per year, higher in US$ although that in part is due to the significant rise in the value of the Thai Baht over the last year.


----------



## answeeney

Interesting thread albeit as is usual for TUG very US centric. Speaking as a poor European I have some questions/observations.

1. Whilst I welcome extra choice that the extra resorts might potentially bring if a DC overlay is introduced onto Vistana and Hyatt, it does seem a bit underwhelming for me. Mexico is the only real added destination and whilst it may be a cheap flight and all inclusive winner for you Yanks it does seem a bit like a very poor man’s Spain.
2. I’ve stayed in a few Vistana/Weston and Hyatt properties in the US but non that offer anything beyond a nice apartment attached to a hotel. Are there any proper resorts? Ones that incorporate a decent range of facilities, eg extensive and nicely maintained grounds, a choice of eating options, a gym, a choice of pools, a market place etc? Granted, not all of the non Europe/Asia Marriott properties offer this so it would be nice if a few of the newcomers did.
3. I really don’t understand the hostility from some angles about the possibility of Vistana and Hyatt inventory being made available in the DC system or why it might be objectionable for existing DC members to get access and non members to have to pay to join. SueDonJ has already nailed it in my opinion. It is an exchange system. Since it was established Marriott has already added quite a lot of new inventory - Pulse, Asian and Australian resorts to name some. They have not a asked existing members to pay extra to access this new inventory. Why should they do so now just because a resort has Weston or Vistana or Hyatt in its name?


----------



## kds4

sjsharkie said:


> And this is where we disagree.
> 
> I don't think they will give existing MVC owners any new access for free -- any new product access (i.e. Vistana or Hyatt) would involve some buy-in fee IMHO.  Marriott is looking to monetize this new acquisition, and they have a set of MVCI owners that they can now resell other product to.  I don't see how they gain financially by annexing only the Vistana owners (which just by # of intervals available for ownership have to be a small fraction of MVCI) for a fee.  This doesn't make fiscal sense.
> 
> Of course, all speculation.
> 
> -ryan



Might be a combination approach where top ownership levels (the minority of owners) get access for free (as multiple owners have already had pitched in different sales presentations at different resorts) while access is held out as a carrot for lower tier owners to 'buy-up' to that and other benefits by adding points to their portfolios.


----------



## Ken555

SueDonJ said:


> Consider, that annual fee offsets many transaction fees if owners enroll their Weeks but continue using II as their exchange company, because owners aren't charged the basic II transaction fees if they exchange their enrolled Weeks to Marriott resorts via their DC-related corporate II accounts.



That’s interesting. I wonder if they might offer the same for the VSN fee we now pay. This might be the single best benefit for joining I’ve read on this thread yet, at least for my SDO weeks which I always trade (these are voluntary weeks and have no StarOptions). If I paid a reasonable fee to enroll these weeks and one of the benefits is an included II account (saving ~$65 per year (I bought a five year membership last time)) and includes the trade fee (I pay ~$140 (I really don’t recall) for trades to other VSN properties and more for others) then it can make a lot of sense to join. 

But, if it’s ~$1800 or more to join, I’ll just start laughing. Or else they need to provide a lot more value to convince me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ken555

bazzap said:


> View attachment 12818
> I would really like to know where in Phuket Thailand you can get a quality 2 Bedroom apartment, in a luxury 5 star resort, with all the facilities and amenities you might wish for, in extensive landscaped tropical gardens, on an 11 mile stretch of protected National Park beach for a little over $150 per night?



FWIW, this Marriott resort always seems to be available for getaway or easy trades for many months of the year. If it’s so good, why is that?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SteelerGal

@Ken555.  That’s my reason to entertain enrolling.  I have non mandatory that I would love to save on and get priority trading.  The Flex programs didn’t appeal since I wouldn’t buy developer.


----------



## kds4

CPNY said:


> MVC reemed their owners by booking other destination more difficult than VSN owners had it. Also, domestic locations like NJ? Really it’s Spain and Thailand. Neither place I would stay in a timeshare. Considering you can get 5 star resorts for less than you pay in annual fees in Thailand.
> 
> As far as resale DC I saw one on eBay 2500 points, the buy in price of 3,000 + 7500 enrollment. How nice



Sounds nice, but only if it can get past ROFR at that price. 3k for 2500 points, I would question the likelihood of success. If it sounds too good to pass up to an individual buyer, it may also be too good for Marriott to pass up taking back as well.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> So for the poster who talked about Vistana reeming owners to retro a voluntary week back into the network with a developer purchase, they failed to see that you can’t even enroll a deeded MVC week today. So the only advantage to buying a resale week from MVC would be if you really wanted to go back to that resort or exchange in II?



That’s why we bought our two EOY weeks in Maui and Kauai - to use there. We have DC points to use for trips elsewhere in the MVC system. 

From time to time MVC will offer promotions that allow post-2010 resale weeks to be enrolled. But to do so requires the purchase of a points package of at least 3000 points.


----------



## kds4

TravelTime said:


> I doubt we will get a $595 enrollment as this is 10 years later. The economy has gone up at least 3x since 2010 when we hit rock bottom. So I would except take 2010 enrollment fees x 3 per week. My guess is $1800 per week you want to enroll and possibly discounts to make it more cost effective if you want to enroll more weeks. I hope they also allow us to enroll some post-2010 weeks at the same time.



They might allow post-2010 resale weeks (but I doubt they would drop the matching point requirement they have made so much money off of imposing).


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> FWIW, this Marriott resort always seems to be available for getaway or easy trades for many months of the year. If it’s so good, why is that?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Probably because there aren’t many owners in that part of the world, if you’re an MVC owner and you fly min 14 hours to Asia and stay in a Marriott timeshare for a week then great. But i have a feeling more US owners are going to the Caribbean, the pulses or Hawaii, etc. than flying that far for a week in their timeshare. At that point you’re traveling around staying in each place a few nights at a time.


kds4 said:


> Sounds nice, but only if it can get past ROFR at that price. 3k for 2500 points, I would question the likelihood of success. If it sounds too good to pass up to an individual buyer, it may also be too good for Marriott to pass up taking back as well.



It was that price along with the 7500 dollar enrollment fee. It’s cray cray


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> That’s why we bought our two EOY weeks in Maui and Kauai - to use there. We have DC points to use for trips elsewhere in the MVC system.
> 
> From time to time MVC will offer promotions that allow post-2010 resale weeks to be enrolled. But to do so requires the purchase of a points package of at least 3000 points.



So you can re enroll a resale ONLY if there is a promotion and that’s with a developer purchase? I forgot who posted but it was claimed that Vistana reemed their owners by making them buy developer to retro a resale voluntary unit. Yet MVW only allows it on a promotion from time to time? I’d rather the ability to always re enroll with a developer purchase. Not that i would, but the option to have would be nice if it were applicable to my VOI’s. 

All I know is it may be time to get a bunch of voluntary resales for free In the off shoot they allow a low re enrollment into a new program, and if not, I’ll give them away


----------



## kds4

CPNY said:


> Probably because there aren’t many owners in that part of the world, if you’re an MVC owner and you fly min 14 hours to Asia and stay in a Marriott timeshare for a week then great. But i have a feeling more US owners are going to the Caribbean, the pulses or Hawaii, etc. than flying that far for a week in their timeshare. At that point you’re traveling around staying in each place a few nights at a time.
> 
> 
> It was that price along with the 7500 dollar enrollment fee. It’s cray cray



The last reported resale points purchase that passed ROFR was at $3.50pp (which may have been an anomaly in itself). Applying that math to your resale listing example, that purchase price would have been $8,750 (points) + $7,500 (enrollment fee) + $1,000 or more in petty fees/closing costs = Approx. $18,000. Add another $1,450 if the current year's maintenance fees have to be paid by the buyer as well, and you are flirting with a near $20k resale points purchase that by itself will not get you much of anything in high season.


----------



## CPNY

kds4 said:


> The last reported resale points purchase that passed ROFR was at $3.50pp (which may have been an anomaly in itself). Using your resale listing example, that purchase price would have been $8750 (points) + $7,500 (enrollment fee) + $1,000 or more in petty fees/closing costs = Approx. $18,000 (for a points purchase that by itself will not get you much of anything in high season).



Yeah 7,895 transfer fee. Maybe the buy in was 5K. Wow that’s insanity. I’ll be more than happy with a westing kierland villas deeded week


----------



## pchung6

kds4 said:


> The last reported resale points purchase that passed ROFR was at $3.50pp (which may have been an anomaly in itself). Applying that math to your resale listing example, that purchase price would have been $8750 (points) + $7,500 (enrollment fee) + $1,000 or more in petty fees/closing costs = Approx. $18,000. Add another $1,450 if the current year's maintenance fees have to be paid by the buyer as well, and you are flirting with a near $20k resale points purchase that by itself will not get you much of anything in high season.



This is crazy. I can get almost 2 Westin Kierland deeds with that price that can get me 2 weeks at Maui with $1600 MF per week. or 4 weeks if I lock off.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> This is crazy. I can get almost 2 Westin Kierland deeds with that price that can get me 2 weeks at Maui with $1600 MF per week. or 4 weeks if I lock off.


And then you can enroll one in the new DC program everyone is speculating about LOL


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> And then you can enroll one in the new DC program everyone is speculating about LOL



Not if they want to charge me $7500 enrollment. I might consider if it’s $595, but only use it to borrow points to add few days to my stay.  MVC still won’t get my week.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> Not if they want to charge me $7500 enrollment. I might consider if it’s $595, but only use it to borrow points to add few days to my stay.  MVC still won’t get my week.


Exactly right. I will never give them my week and VSN star options booking. I will only elect to enroll for a small fee even then, I’d think twice about it. They will devalue staroptions so our two bedrooms = 2000 DC leaving us to buy more. Who knows


----------



## TravelTime

I have 4 weeks between Marriott, Westin and Hyatt that I hope to enroll when  MVC integrates the 3 systems. That will get me well past Chairman’s Club level.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I have 4 weeks between Marriott, Westin and Hyatt that I hope to enroll when  MVC integrates the 3 systems. That will get me well past Chairman’s Club level.


How do you get to chairman’s level in MVC


----------



## SueDonJ

pchung6 said:


> Not if they want to charge me $7500 enrollment. I might consider if it’s $595, but only use it to borrow points to add few days to my stay.  MVC still won’t get my week.



You're confusing the fees to essentially "requal" (in Vistana vernacular) an external resale of purchased DC Trust Points, a completely different animal from enrolling eligible owned Weeks in the DC Exchange Company. At the DC inception nine years ago those fees ranged between $595 and $1,995. Currently it's $2,395 across-the-board but there are occasional offers, with start/end dates, that substantially reduce or waive the fees. If this type of enrollment is what's ultimately offered to existing Vistana/Hyatt owners, I wouldn't expect MVW to charge them any more than the fee in effect at the time of the offer, and it's entirely possible that it may be less as an enticement.

I get why people might not be interested in the added usage options that DC enrollment offers, but I really don't understand using anything other than the facts *as we know them* to tear it down as a rip-off or useless. How does that help anybody facing all this uncertainty? We Marriott TUGgers who were around at the DC inception can tell you that probably half of the problems we had in trying to understand it were a result of people arguing against things that weren't ever on the table. Hopefully, if enrollment comes to fruition for you, you'll at least be spared that waste of time.


----------



## Fasttr

CPNY said:


> How do you get to chairman’s level in MVC


https://www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/common/cms/mvc/pdfs/owners/Owner-Benefit-Level.pdf


----------



## kds4

CPNY said:


> How do you get to chairman’s level in MVC



You must own a total of Destination Club (DC) points, or enrolled deeded weeks with a converted DC points value, or a combination of both weeks and points that is worth a total of 15,000 or more points.


----------



## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> How do you get to chairman’s level in MVC



From the DC Points FAQ in the TUG Marriott forum stickies, which by the way goes into far more detail than what's in these threads:
*
>>Status Tiers effective 4/30/15:*

*Owners* own/can convert enrolled Weeks to *up to 3,999 DC Points*.
*Select Members* own/can convert enrolled Weeks to *4,000 - 6,999 DC Points*.
*Executive Members* own/can convert enrolled Weeks to *7,000 - 9,999 DC Points*.
*Presidential Members* own/can convert enrolled Weeks to *10,000 - 14,999 DC Points*.
*Chairman's Club Members* own/can convert enrolled Weeks to *15,000+ DC Points*.<<
(You can see in the FAQ that there's been an adjustment in these tiers that resulted in certain ownerships being "grandfathered" to a higher tier. I deliberately left that out here because new enrollments aren't subject to that grandfathering.)

Each enrolled Week is allotted a specific amount of "DC Point Conversion" values based on resort/season/unit size/view. TUGger StevenTing hosts a doc that itemizes many owner-submitted values here: *http://historical.vacationpointexchange.com. *It's possible that some correlation could be made between these Marriott values and the anticipated values of similar intervals in the Vistana/Hyatt systems, but knowing Marriott I would never guarantee anything.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> All I know is it may be time to get a bunch of voluntary resales for free In the off shoot they allow a low re enrollment into a new program, and if not, I’ll give them away



As they say in the investment biz, past performance is no guarantee of future returns, but I do know that the folks who owned multiple resale weeks prior to June 20, 2010 got what is probably the best deal in the history of timesharing. Marriott allowed these resale weeks to be enrolled for $1495 for one week or $1995 for multiple weeks. I know some TUGgers who had 5 or 6 weeks and came out of that with 15,000 to 20,000+ points.  No guarantee they'll do the same for Vistana/Hyatt since the program is more mature now and they don't need to kick-start it like they did back then, but if they do it could be a really good deal for VSE owners who take advantage. Folks like me who became MVC owners after that point are jealous of all these folks' cheap points.


----------



## CPNY

Wo


JIMinNC said:


> As they say in the investment biz, past performance is no guarantee of future returns, but I do know that the folks who owned multiple resale weeks prior to June 20, 2010 got what is probably the best deal in the history of timesharing. Marriott allowed these resale weeks to be enrolled for $1495 for one week or $1995 for multiple weeks. I know some TUGgers who had 5 or 6 weeks and came out of that with 15,000 to 20,000+ points.  No guarantee they'll do the same for Vistana/Hyatt since the program is more mature now and they don't need to kick-start it like they did back then, but if they do it could be a really good deal for VSE owners who take advantage. Folks like me who became MVC owners after that point are jealous of all these folks' cheap points.


wow that’s amazing, I would enroll if and only if I can keep my star options booking separate from the DC program. If I get the best of both worlds then I’d pay up


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

For the folks that have been around on the Marriott site for at least nine years;  I wonder what Perry would have to say about these mergers (and all his speculations) ?


----------



## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> See posts #276 and #285. At least some Vistana deeds appear to have specifically-assigned points provisions. It appears to be written into the deed and is not just a term of the CCRs that can be easily changed.


It isn't written in to the deeds. It is in the CC&R document, which underly the deed. Those mandatory resort CC&R have the terms of the SVN (now VSN) written in to them. While they can change the terms of VSN, those changes would impact all mandatory owners as well as anyone that bought developer. Kill VSN? Everyone is out, not just those mandatory owners.



SueDonJ said:


> I would be very surprised if after all is said and done with Marriott's purchase of Vistana and Hyatt, their choice will be to drop the Marriott name in favor of Vistana. Very, very, VERY surprised. A name change, sure, that's always a possibility, but not to that of a former competitor which they've effectively absorbed.


When Starwood spun off the vacation segment, it got the new name of Vistana. That was the same name of the company that Starwood bought when it entered in to the vacation ownership fray. United airlines bought Continental, but continues to this day to use the Continental logo on their planes. So there is precedent to keeping the name of the company you acquire. Vistana is in fact one of the original timeshare companies and has a lot of history behind it. I could see them changing the name to something like Vistana Vacations Worldwide. Though I find it doubtful. The only thing that could force a name change would be their negotiations with Hyatt. If they want to continue to keep the Hyatt vacation ownership licensing agreement and Hyatt forces their hand, they could force a name change.


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> Wo
> 
> wow that’s amazing, I would enroll if and only if I can keep my star options booking separate from the DC program. If I get the best of both worlds then I’d pay up



I will enroll too only if I can keep my starpoints reservation. If I have to give SOs ability up, I won’t do it.


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> Could be, sure. It may well be that the international legalities will prevent the Mexico resorts from being rolled out as DC-eligible at the outset, or even preclude them ever being a component.


I expect Westin Aventuras to work much like Asia Pacific. It is a separate system that you can cross book utilizing the MVC Exchange Company.


----------



## Ken555

pchung6 said:


> I will enroll too only if I can keep my starpoints reservation. If I have to give SOs ability up, I won’t do it.



This assumes that StarOptions are still around. As was posted previously, they could kill the club altogether and if they do then there are no more StarOptions, no more internal trading, etc. I could see them doing this if they require a reasonable low cost payment to join a different network. We all knew we could lose our StarOptions...though if they don’t make people happy they’ll have a lot of angry owners and that won’t make for pleasant “updates”.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> That’s interesting. I wonder if they might offer the same for the VSN fee we now pay. This might be the single best benefit for joining I’ve read on this thread yet, at least for my SDO weeks which I always trade (these are voluntary weeks and have no StarOptions). If I paid a reasonable fee to enroll these weeks and one of the benefits is an included II account (saving ~$65 per year (I bought a five year membership last time)) and includes the trade fee (I pay ~$140 (I really don’t recall) for trades to other VSN properties and more for others) then it can make a lot of sense to join.
> 
> But, if it’s ~$1800 or more to join, I’ll just start laughing. Or else they need to provide a lot more value to convince me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Many Marriott owners enrolled only for the fee savings. We were one of those owners. We only converted to points one year way back because it worked better for where we were going (Kalanipu'u). It has saved us thousands of dollars in II fees.



TheTimeTraveler said:


> For the folks that have been around on the Marriott site for at least nine years;  I wonder what Perry would have to say about these mergers (and all his speculations) ?


----------



## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> This assumes that StarOptions are still around. As was posted previously, they could kill the club altogether and if they do then there are no more StarOptions, no more internal trading, etc. I could see them doing this if they require a reasonable low cost payment to join a different network. We all knew we could lose our StarOptions...though if they don’t make people happy they’ll have a lot of angry owners and that won’t make for pleasant “updates”.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I don't really see them killing the club altogether either. Many unhappy owners that used to be able to trade even steven from Scottsdale to Hawaii would now have to pony up perhaps 50-100% more points to get the same trade. I don't see them doing that.


----------



## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> I don't really see them killing the club altogether either. Many unhappy owners that used to be able to trade even steven from Scottsdale to Hawaii would now have to pony up perhaps 50-100% more points to get the same trade. I don't see them doing that.



Exactly. Still, it’s possible. And since this thread is all about speculation, and very little facts, it’s time to revisit the unlikely possibility of eliminating VSN internal trades altogether. Doing so would increase the number of weeks enrolled in whatever trading network they promote.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I don't really see them killing the club altogether either. Many unhappy owners that used to be able to trade even steven from Scottsdale to Hawaii would now have to pony up perhaps 50-100% more points to get the same trade. I don't see them doing that.


That would be terribly disastrous. And I’ll be going to Orlando too much lol


----------



## pchung6

Ken555 said:


> Exactly. Still, it’s possible. And since this thread is all about speculation, and very little facts, it’s time to revisit the unlikely possibility of eliminating VSN internal trades altogether. Doing so would increase the number of weeks enrolled in whatever trading network they promote.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Wow, kill VSN completely. That’s a good smart strategy and declare war to these Starwood customers they just spent billions to acquire.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> Wow, kill VSN completely. That’s a good smart strategy and declare war to these Starwood customers they just spent billions to acquire.



That would be the exit to my timeshare game. I’ll just rent


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> That would be terribly disastrous. And I’ll be going to Orlando too much lol



Got something against the mouse? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> Got something against the mouse?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


As of yesterday I have 5 bedrooms and trying to pick up another 2..... without VSN me and the mouse will be best friends for life! I need my star option booking


----------



## dioxide45

Here is another option that they could do; rename the Destinations Trust Points Program to Marriott Flex. You then have;


Marriott Flex
Westin Flex
Westin Aventuras
Sheraton Flex

Then they have a separate exchange company where if you own any one of those you can exchange your points through that company to one of the other properties. No enrollment possible. To allow an in, they go the current Vistana route of requiring you to deed your week back to them and you buy n number of points. Vistana is doing this pretty heavily now with Westin and Sheraton Flex. The only people that are members of the new "Trust Point Owners Exchange Company" are those that bought in to those trusts.

If I were them, I would want the long term goal to build up the trusts as much as possible and slowly reduce the number of individual weeks inside the system. One massive trust would be easier, but that ship sailed when Vistana initiated the HomeOption and Flex programs.

Like Vistana, Marriott could offer you 80% of the value of the last sales price of your week toward whatever new trust/flex points you are buying. Perhaps you need to come to the table with new money, I think right now with Vistana it is $10,000 regardless of how many weeks you turn back in. This allows them to build up the trust, gain overall control of the HOAs (though they pretty much have control already) and create a system for the long term. While Vistana did make a mistake going with separate trusts, they did have specific reasons for doing so, brand differentiation being one of them along with the legalities of Mexico. I think Vistana did go down a rabbit hole when they started up HomeOptions at specific resorts like WSJ and Nanea and it became messy. You or I may not be willing to deed our weeks back to the developer to buy in, but you would be surprised by the number of people deeding back WKORV N/S today to buy Nanea points. The average owner doesn't think like the average Tugger.

While most here are speculating that they want to keep DC long term as a single system, they may be thinking more the route that Vistana has vs how Marriott has been doing things. Over time they could slowly convert weeks based owners to trust points and slowly reclaim weeks like Vistana is doing today. The process seems to be reducing resale inventory, perhaps a side benefit of the program.

Just throwing this out there as a possibility because anything is of course possible. I am sure they have brainstormed so many options we aren't even considering and are narrowing down to the best options and perhaps pulling some things from each to create some type of combined system.


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> That would be the exit to my timeshare game. I’ll just rent



I will sell all of my weeks and move to Hilton and Disney. I’m sure someone will want your vacation money.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> wow that’s amazing, I would enroll if and only if I can keep my star options booking separate from the DC program. If I get the best of both worlds then I’d pay up





pchung6 said:


> I will enroll too only if I can keep my starpoints reservation. If I have to give SOs ability up, I won’t do it.



The best of both worlds is definitely what the pre-6/20/2010 MVC owners got.


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> Got something against the mouse?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Ever hear of timesharenation.com? They are giving away a Sheraton desert oasis. Is it worth it to use for trade


pchung6 said:


> I will sell all of my weeks and move to Hilton and Disney. I’m sure someone will want your vacation money.


DVC is too expensive, and I’m not a fan of HGVC destinations. Maybe Hyatt? Or I’ll just take my aunts deeded week in harborside since I am selling mine.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> The best of both worlds is definitely what the pre-6/20/2010 MVC owners got.


And still have it to this day? Hey, we could have best of both. Who knows how it shakes out. I just don’t want to be tripping over everyone for availability in my favorite resorts.


----------



## SueDonJ

TheTimeTraveler said:


> For the folks that have been around on the Marriott site for at least nine years;  I wonder what Perry would have to say about these mergers (and all his speculations) ?



If history is any indication he'd right now be ranting and raving against the Evil Marriott Machine for everything under the sun plus more, but the minute they roll out whatever they roll out for Vistana/Hyatt owners he'll proclaim it The Best Timeshare Product Ever Developed In The History Of Forever and start selling an information packet (that rips off Marriott copyrights and quotes Marriott documentation) on eBay.


----------



## billymach4

SueDonJ said:


> If history is any indication he'd right now be ranting and raving against the Evil Marriott Machine for everything under the sun plus more, but the minute they roll out whatever they roll out for Vistana/Hyatt owners he'll proclaim it The Best Timeshare Product Ever Developed In The History Of Forever and start selling an information packet (that rips off Marriott copyrights and quotes Marriott documentation) on eBay.



So that's who peddled that propaganda on EBay! Dang! The Orangefan user on Ebay. Claimed to be from CT!
He was selling info packets for $10 on EBay.


----------



## JIMinNC

As we've been talking here, I can foresee a few potential minefields for Marriott owners in some of the popular MVC locations where VSE has no presence - places like Aruba, Hilton Head, Newport Coast, etc.

For example, Aruba is already difficult to book in prime winter season in the DC because those locations are ineligible for the DC Trust, so the only inventory that shows up in the DC Exchange is inventory that Aruba owners have elected for points. There is no Trust inventory. Since VSE has no presence in Aruba, that will likely be one place a lot of VSN owners want to visit, increasing demand/competition for the already limited Aruba inventory. I don't think somewhere like Maui Ocean Club will be impacted much, since VSN has three resorts of their own there, so VSN owners wanting to go to Maui have less reason to choose to elect for DC points, whereas those wanting to go somewhere VSE is not will want to elect for DC points, putting more strain on those locations. I think the majority of the DC demand from VSN owners will gravitate to the popular locations where VSN is not.

The same thing could happen in reverse at the locations VSE has where Marriott is not - namely Mexico, St John, and Harborside - but if that inventory which is open to DC users is dependent upon VSN owners electing for DC points, it may take longer for the inventory crunch to happen at those locations.


----------



## dioxide45

billymach4 said:


> So that's who peddled that propaganda on EBay! Dang! The Orangefan user on Ebay. Claimed to be from CT!
> He was selling info packets for $10 on EBay.


I think Sue was referring to The Timeshare Wizard, he had his own forum and sold his ebook.


----------



## SueDonJ

billymach4 said:


> So that's who peddled that propaganda on EBay! Dang! The Orangefan user on Ebay. Claimed to be from CT!
> He was selling info packets for $10 on EBay.





dioxide45 said:


> I think Sue was referring to The Timeshare Wizard, he had his own forum and sold his ebook.



I don't know which was Perry's but there were a few who used eBay and their own websites to cash in. I don't know if we ever learned whether Marriott did anything about their copyrighted logos and docs being co-opted?


----------



## CPNY

Here is an excerpt from VSN Rules etc.. special exchange programs.... however, doesn’t mean anything since right above that they have the right to make an amendment of the network rules whenever they want.

8.3 Amendment of the Network Rules. Except as provided in the Resort Documents, Network Operator expressly reserves the right to amend the Network Rules, with respect to Network Resorts in all respects, in its sole discretion, from time to time, without the consent of Network Members, for any purpose, including permitting banking of Vacation Periods and creating Network tiers. Network Operator shall deliver notice of any amendment to each Primary Contact at the Primary Contact’s last known address. Notice of amendments may be made by newsletter, annual mailings, facsimile, or e-mail.

8.4 Special Exchange Programs. Network Operator reserves the right, from time to time, to enter into special exchange relationships with any entity other than an External Exchange Company pursuant to which Network Members will have access to selected non-Network resorts and non-Network owners will have access to Network accommodations after the Home Resort Reservation Period. *Any special exchange programs will be governed by reservation rules and regulations similar to those governing an External Exchange Program.
*
Could a joint program be considered an exchange program and inventory is based solely on who exchanges? So after the home resort reservation period, could mean MVC owners could book at 8 months. But again, similar rules to those governing an external exchange.


----------



## billymach4

dioxide45 said:


> I think Sue was referring to The Timeshare Wizard, he had his own forum and sold his ebook.



Yeah I remember that one as well


----------



## dioxide45

billymach4 said:


> Yeah I remember that one as well


He did some webinars too. Ran afoul of TUG rules by promoting it here.


----------



## billymach4

dioxide45 said:


> He did some webinars too. Ran afoul of TUG rules by promoting it here.



Sort of remember those as well. I thought  he just fell off the TUG radar.


----------



## vacationtime1

dioxide45 said:


> I don't really see them killing the club altogether either. Many unhappy owners that used to be able to trade even steven from Scottsdale to Hawaii would now have to pony up perhaps 50-100% more points to get the same trade. I don't see them doing that.





Ken555 said:


> Exactly. Still, it’s possible. And since this thread is all about speculation, and very little facts, it’s time to revisit the unlikely possibility of eliminating VSN internal trades
> altogether. Doing so would increase the number of weeks enrolled in whatever trading network they promote.



My concern is that MVC kills StarOption exchanges by killing the supply side.  Assume almost any of the methods of enrollment posted above. _* If *_Westin Maui, Westin Princeville, Harborside, etc. owners are _*sufficiently *_incentivized, they will elect DC points and relinquish their units to the DC trust rather than exchanging within the StarOptions pool.  That would reduce the high-end, target inventory that SVV, Kierland, etc. owners like me attempt to pick off at the eight month mark.  The result would be to push StarOption trading into a corner.  I hope not.

If MVC wants this to work, it will need to price* the target Westin resorts expensively -- to increase supply and to reduce demand.  The opposite for most of the Sheraton resorts; they will command relatively few DC points.

* assign lots of DC points


----------



## JIMinNC

vacationtime1 said:


> My concern is that MVC kills StarOption exchanges by killing the supply side.  Assume almost any of the methods of enrollment posted above. _* If *_Westin Maui, Westin Princeville, Harborside, etc. owners are _*sufficiently *_incentivized, they will elect DC points and relinquish their units to the DC trust rather than exchanging within the StarOptions pool.  That would reduce the high-end, target inventory that SVV, Kierland, etc. owners like me attempt to pick off at the eight month mark.  The result would be to push StarOption trading into a corner.  I hope not.
> 
> If MVC wants this to work, it will need to price* the target Westin resorts expensively -- to increase supply and to reduce demand.  The opposite for most of the Sheraton resorts; they will command relatively few DC points.
> 
> * assign lots of DC points



If the current MVC DC is any indication of what a new program might look like from a points standpoint, they will price the Westin resorts expensively. Here is how MVC priced 2BR units at Marriott Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina/Napili Towers, which is the closest thing to the Westins on Maui as far as accommodations, etc. Compared to that are a few MVC resorts in Orlando & Phoenix that might be comparable to the Sheraton properties:

Marriott's Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina and Napili Villas
2 Bedroom Island View - 4700 points or 5450 points depending on season
2 Bedroom Mtn/Gdn View - 5500 points or 6425 points depending on season
2 Bedroom Ocean View - 6650 points or 7625 points depending on season
2 Bedroom Ocean Front - 7450 points or 8650 points depending on season

Marriott's Cypress Harbour, Orlando
2 Bedroom - 1725 to 3225 points, depending on season

Marriott's Grande Vista, Orlando
2 Bedroom - 1900 to 3500 points, depending on season

Marriott's Harbour Lake, Orlando
2 Bedroom - 1725 to 3225 points, depending on season

Marriott's Canyon Villas, Phoenix
2 Bedroom - 1725 to 4175 points, depending on season

As you can see, Maui is very much "demand priced". I would certainly expect WKORV, WKORVN, and Nanea to be priced similarly to the Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili Villas in any notional VSE points charts for the DC.


----------



## pchung6

JIMinNC said:


> As you can see, Maui is very much "demand priced". I would certainly expect WKORV, WKORVN, and Nanea to be priced similarly to the Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili Villas in any notional VSE points charts for the DC.



Looks like DC will devalue Westin Maui Island View which currently has the same value as Oceanview at 148100 pts.  Also Westin Kierland will be devalued from the current 148100 pts (good for 2 br Maui with possible OV) to not even enough for Maui worst view.  These 2 groups (Maui IV and WKV) will continue to trade internally with VSN, so does SVV.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

So if you own a plat 2 bdrm EOY on Maui are the points half the value annually? Can you combine from multiple EOY years?

Or are the point values the same but EOY? Can you bank partial points to a future year but use partial points in current year?


----------



## vacationtime1

CalGalTraveler said:


> So if you own a plat 2 bdrm EOY on Maui are the points half the value annually? Can you combine from multiple EOY years?
> 
> Or are the point values the same but EOY? Can you bank partial points to a future year but use partial points in current year?



The point values are the same but EOY.  Points are points, so once elected, they can be used or banked for 1-2 years (depending on status level) in whole or in part.  And yes, points from different weeks and years can be combined.


----------



## ocdb8r

JIMinNC said:


> As they say in the investment biz, past performance is no guarantee of future returns, but I do know that the folks who owned multiple resale weeks prior to June 20, 2010 got what is probably the best deal in the history of timesharing. Marriott allowed these resale weeks to be enrolled for $1495 for one week or $1995 for multiple weeks. I know some TUGgers who had 5 or 6 weeks and came out of that with 15,000 to 20,000+ points.  No guarantee they'll do the same for Vistana/Hyatt since the program is more mature now and they don't need to kick-start it like they did back then, but if they do it could be a really good deal for VSE owners who take advantage. Folks like me who became MVC owners after that point are jealous of all these folks' cheap points.



I think this is a bit of a generous comment.  People who had bought their weeks directly from Marriott didn't get THAT stellar of a deal.  Those that had purchased resale got a decent deal, but given Marriott completely changed the game overnight, I think it was a fair tradeoff (keep in mind prior to the DC, resale weeks were getting quite generous trades in II).



TheTimeTraveler said:


> For the folks that have been around on the Marriott site for at least nine years;  I wonder what Perry would have to say about these mergers (and all his speculations) ?



PERRY!  I would LOVE to have Perry back to add some fun color to these threads.



dioxide45 said:


> I don't really see them killing the club altogether either. Many unhappy owners that used to be able to trade even steven from Scottsdale to Hawaii would now have to pony up perhaps 50-100% more points to get the same trade. I don't see them doing that.



I agree that I think it's unlikely (at least in the short term) that they get rid of SVN because it alienates many of the new owners they are hoping to court.  I however disagree that they care that Kierland owners might be marginalized because of their inability to trade even steven into Maui - the DC points charts make clear Marriott don't think this should be the case.


----------



## bazzap

Ou


JIMinNC said:


> As they say in the investment biz, past performance is no guarantee of future returns, but I do know that the folks who owned multiple resale weeks prior to June 20, 2010 got what is probably the best deal in the history of timesharing. Marriott allowed these resale weeks to be enrolled for $1495 for one week or $1995 for multiple weeks. I know some TUGgers who had 5 or 6 weeks and came out of that with 15,000 to 20,000+ points.  No guarantee they'll do the same for Vistana/Hyatt since the program is more mature now and they don't need to kick-start it like they did back then, but if they do it could be a really good deal for VSE owners who take advantage. Folks like me who became MVC owners after that point are jealous of all these folks' cheap points.


Our pre TUG developer week purchases were enrolled for $695.
Once in, future pre cut off date resale week purchases (2012 for Europe and 2016 for Phuket) could be enrolled without further payment, so we did not incur the $1995 resale enrolment fee, although of course we did have the cost of buying from Marriott initially.
This did give us 20000+ points though.


----------



## bazzap

Ken555 said:


> FWIW, this Marriott resort always seems to be available for getaway or easy trades for many months of the year. If it’s so good, why is that?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


There are 2 MVC resorts in Phuket, Phuket Beach Club (PBC) and Mai Khao Beach Resort (MKB)
PBC was sold as weeks, MKB was only ever available as AP points.
You may often find MKB available for getaways or easy trades, far less so PBC.
If you do find PBC available though, it may well be due to 2 factors
1) very long haul flights, especially from many parts of the US
2) they have a 6 month rainy season, roughly mid May to end October.
I suspect you may find availability at PBC during the dry season far more of a challenge.


----------



## ocdb8r

JIMinNC said:


> As we've been talking here, I can foresee a few potential minefields for Marriott owners in some of the popular MVC locations where VSE has no presence - places like Aruba, Hilton Head, Newport Coast, etc.
> 
> For example, Aruba is already difficult to book in prime winter season in the DC because those locations are ineligible for the DC Trust, so the only inventory that shows up in the DC Exchange is inventory that Aruba owners have elected for points. There is no Trust inventory. Since VSE has no presence in Aruba, that will likely be one place a lot of VSN owners want to visit, increasing demand/competition for the already limited Aruba inventory. I don't think somewhere like Maui Ocean Club will be impacted much, since VSN has three resorts of their own there, so VSN owners wanting to go to Maui have less reason to choose to elect for DC points, whereas those wanting to go somewhere VSE is not will want to elect for DC points, putting more strain on those locations. I think the majority of the DC demand from VSN owners will gravitate to the popular locations where VSN is not.
> 
> The same thing could happen in reverse at the locations VSE has where Marriott is not - namely Mexico, St John, and Harborside - but if that inventory which is open to DC users is dependent upon VSN owners electing for DC points, it may take longer for the inventory crunch to happen at those locations.



Theoretically your two scenarios should balance each other out a bit; an increase in alternatives should increase people exchanging for DC points in order to visit new locations (i.e. more Aruba people drop their weeks into the DC in order to gain access to Mexico, St. John and Harborside while more Mexico, St. John and Harborside owners drop their weeks into the DC to gain access to DC resorts).  However, what you point out is an inherent problem with the system: a) the DC trust owns no Aruba weeks (which you pointed out) and b) (more importantly) Aruba weeks were undervalued in DC points compared to their demand - Aruba owners are not incentivized sufficiently to turn their weeks in as in many cases they can't get enough points to travel to a comparable destination.


----------



## Dean

answeeney said:


> They have not a asked existing members to pay extra to access this new inventory. Why should they do so now just because a resort has Weston or Vistana or Hyatt in its name?


But they have asked members to ante up to participate in the DC and the non Marriott owners have not yet done so.  Anything they'd paid they paid to a different company and one way or another, Marriott will want their dollars where they can get them.  Obviously it's a balance and who knows what they'll do.  They may decide the inventory and participation is worth a low or no fee.  More likely there will be a fairly short period to time where a cheap enrollment is available.  



pchung6 said:


> This is crazy. I can get almost 2 Westin Kierland deeds with that price that can get me 2 weeks at Maui with $1600 MF per week. or 4 weeks if I lock off.





CPNY said:


> Exactly right. I will never give them my week and VSN star options booking. I will only elect to enroll for a small fee even then, I’d think twice about it. They will devalue staroptions so our two bedrooms = 2000 DC leaving us to buy more. Who knows


As noted, that assumes the programs stay the same.  I think it's close to 100% certainty that will not be the case long term, how much it'll be different is the question.  



dioxide45 said:


> I don't really see them killing the club altogether either.


Neither do I see them leaving those programs completely intact, best case scenario is likely that they stay intact other than volume as some are syphoned off for the DC.



pchung6 said:


> Wow, kill VSN completely. That’s a good smart strategy and declare war to these Starwood customers they just spent billions to acquire.





CPNY said:


> That would be the exit to my timeshare game. I’ll just rent


There will be some that will be better off and some worse off with whatever happens, this is the nature off the beast.  And some of those will decide to exit as it always the case.  Likely most will stay and most will pay dues with whatever system ends up.



CPNY said:


> Here is an excerpt from VSN Rules etc.. special exchange programs.... however, doesn’t mean anything since right above that they have the right to make an amendment of the network rules whenever they want.
> 
> 8.3 Amendment of the Network Rules. Except as provided in the Resort Documents, Network Operator expressly reserves the right to amend the Network Rules, with respect to Network Resorts in all respects, in its sole discretion, from time to time, without the consent of Network Members, for any purpose, including permitting banking of Vacation Periods and creating Network tiers. Network Operator shall deliver notice of any amendment to each Primary Contact at the Primary Contact’s last known address. Notice of amendments may be made by newsletter, annual mailings, facsimile, or e-mail.
> 
> 8.4 Special Exchange Programs. Network Operator reserves the right, from time to time, to enter into special exchange relationships with any entity other than an External Exchange Company pursuant to which Network Members will have access to selected non-Network resorts and non-Network owners will have access to Network accommodations after the Home Resort Reservation Period. *Any special exchange programs will be governed by reservation rules and regulations similar to those governing an External Exchange Program.
> *
> Could a joint program be considered an exchange program and inventory is based solely on who exchanges? So after the home resort reservation period, could mean MVC owners could book at 8 months. But again, similar rules to those governing an external exchange.


As I suspect and as noted in 8.3, it appears they have 100% control over the reservation procedures which normally includes points costs, reallocations, other resorts (which have less protection normally).  From a legal and contractual standpoint I suspect there are a LOT less protections than some think.


----------



## bazzap

ocdb8r said:


> Theoretically your two scenarios should balance each other out a bit; an increase in alternatives should increase people exchanging for DC points in order to visit new locations (i.e. more Aruba people drop their weeks into the DC in order to gain access to Mexico, St. John and Harborside while more Mexico, St. John and Harborside owners drop their weeks into the DC to gain access to DC resorts).  However, what you point out is an inherent problem with the system: a) the DC trust owns no Aruba weeks (which you pointed out) and b) (more importantly) Aruba weeks were undervalued in DC points compared to their demand - Aruba owners are not incentivized sufficiently to turn their weeks in as in many cases they can't get enough points to travel to a comparable destination.


And to an extent the impact of that undervaluation applies to all MVC Caribbean weeks.
So although our St Kitts weeks are enrolled, we will never elect them for DC points.
We either use them as home resort stays or they are great Interval exchangers, always our first to be confirmed.


----------



## bogey21

Hope I live long enough to see how all this plays out...

George


----------



## CPNY

bazzap said:


> And to an extent the impact of that undervaluation applies to all MVC Caribbean weeks.
> So although our St Kitts weeks are enrolled, we will never elect them for DC points.
> We either use them as home resort stays or they are great Interval exchangers, always our first to be confirmed.



Hmm it seems that they don’t value their Caribbean resorts? VSN Caribbean resorts are def much better. Harborside just for the fact you have access to the Atlantis. Im sure they will value that a decent resort. Although when I was there last, there were two gentlemen from MVG scouting the place.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

JIMinNC said:


> If the current MVC DC is any indication of what a new program might look like from a points standpoint, they will price the Westin resorts expensively. Here is how MVC priced 2BR units at Marriott Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina/Napili Towers, which is the closest thing to the Westins on Maui as far as accommodations, etc. Compared to that are a few MVC resorts in Orlando & Phoenix that might be comparable to the Sheraton properties:
> 
> Marriott's Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina and Napili Villas
> 2 Bedroom Island View - 4700 points or 5450 points depending on season
> 2 Bedroom Mtn/Gdn View - 5500 points or 6425 points depending on season
> 2 Bedroom Ocean View - 6650 points or 7625 points depending on season
> 2 Bedroom Ocean Front - 7450 points or 8650 points depending on season
> 
> 
> As you can see, Maui is very much "demand priced". I would certainly expect WKORV, WKORVN, and Nanea to be priced similarly to the Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili Villas in any notional VSE points charts for the DC.



What is the difference in season? I thought all of Maui was platinum 1 - 50 and event week (51 - 52) similar to Westin Kaanapali?  Is that the difference in point spread in your example?


----------



## ocdb8r

Dean said:


> As I suspect and as noted in 8.3, it appears they have 100% control over the reservation procedures which normally includes points costs, reallocations, other resorts (which have less protection normally).  From a legal and contractual standpoint I suspect there are a LOT less protections than some think.



As regards SVN, I think you're right on.  People here generally seem to overestimate the protections they have.  I generally think two things go into MVC's thinking (and honestly, to Vistana and ILG before them):

1) How do we orchestrate an exchange system that DOES comport with the actual deeded protections (which for floating week resorts generally says during a certain period - usually the home resort period - reservations are on a first-come first-served basis and without competition from non-home resort owners).  This may sound simple, but in practice the complications of a multi-trust/multi-brand overarching system, it's hard to manage inventory in a fluid way even respecting this basic principle.  Thus I suspect they try to create something that might technically violate this at times but generally ensures owners are happy and get reasonable access to their resort.  I have long suspected that if MVC or SVN reservation systems were audited, there would certainly be some technical violations of the specific requirements in deeds.

2) How do we orchestrate a system that doesn't marginalize or alienate any single group of owners (at a specific resort or within a specific system).  Basically, I do believe they are motivated to institute something that is (or at least can be "sold" as) fair.  Even if they have wide latitude to make big changes in existing systems or new systems, any short-term gain they can make by taking advantage of this latitude comes at the price of long-term gains.  Thus far I think MVC has kept this in mind and taken a pretty fair and balanced approach (certainly not perfect) to the DC.


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> How do you get to chairman’s level in MVC



At the moment, it is 15.000 DPs per year. I have the equivalent of 11, 700 per year.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

vacationtime1 said:


> The point values are the same but EOY.  Points are points, so once elected, they can be used or banked for 1-2 years (depending on status level) in whole or in part.  And yes, points from different weeks and years can be combined.



Thanks for clarifying. So if I enroll my EOY:

1) Will I have to pay the annual enrollment fee whether I elect to use it for points or not?
2) Can I rent points from others annually if I am EOY?
3) Can I rent out my points annually? i.e. in a banked year 1 - 2 years out as an EOY.
4) How much is a rental per point typically?

We only have a toe in the VSN/MVC market with one property that we will use on Maui more often than trade, so renting points with enrollment _might_ be worth it, but it still must pencil out to be less than occasionally renting MVC on the open market/getaway, or the occasional trade, otherwise, why obligate yourself to paying several hundred every year plus the up-front cost of enrollment?


----------



## kds4

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks for clarifying. So if I enroll my EOY:
> 
> 1) Will I have to pay the annual enrollment fee whether I elect to use it for points or not?
> 2) Can I rent points from others annually if I am EOY?
> 3) Can I rent out my points annually? i.e. in a banked year 1 - 2 years out as an EOY.
> 4) How much is a rental per point typically?
> 
> We only have a toe in the VSN/MVC market with one property that we will use on Maui more often than trade, so renting points with enrollment _might_ be worth it, but it still must pencil out to be less than occasionally renting MVC on the open market/getaway, or the occasional trade, otherwise, why obligate yourself to paying several hundred every year plus the up-front cost of enrollment?



From my experience in the program:

1. Yes (with the amount of annual 'dues' being based on your ownership level. The higher the level, the higher the dues. A breakdown was given in a previous post).
2. Yes (an enrolled owner is an enrolled owner. All have the ability to rent points).
3. Unsure, but probably. I don't have experience with EOY units.
4. Varies (but often around the maintenance fee cost of DC points. This year .58/pp, although sometimes owners will talk of renting out their points for more than this).


----------



## Fasttr

CalGalTraveler said:


> What is the difference in season? I thought all of Maui was platinum 1 - 50 and event week (51 - 52) similar to Westin Kaanapali?  Is that the difference in point spread in your example?


See pages 54-55 here...   http://vacationpointexchange.com/pointschart/points_charts_2019.pdf


----------



## JIMinNC

CalGalTraveler said:


> What is the difference in season? I thought all of Maui was platinum 1 - 50 and event week (51 - 52) similar to Westin Kaanapali?  Is that the difference in point spread in your example?



Hawaii is one season for the MVC legacy weeks system, but when they created the points system in 2010 they created two seasons in all of the Hawaii resorts.


----------



## JIMinNC

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks for clarifying. So if I enroll my EOY:
> 
> 1) Will I have to pay the annual enrollment fee whether I elect to use it for points or not?
> 2) Can I rent points from others annually if I am EOY?
> 3) Can I rent out my points annually? i.e. in a banked year 1 - 2 years out as an EOY.
> 4) How much is a rental per point typically?
> 
> We only have a toe in the VSN/MVC market with one property that we will use on Maui more often than trade, so renting points with enrollment _might_ be worth it, but it still must pencil out to be less than occasionally renting MVC on the open market/getaway, or the occasional trade, otherwise, why obligate yourself to paying several hundred every year plus the up-front cost of enrollment?



1) Yes. Once enrolled the annual membership fee is paid annually. 
2) Yes. You can rent points at any time. 
3) You cannot rent points that have been banked or borrowed. You can only rent your owned points in their original use year. So if you have even year points, you can only rent your even year allocations- 2020, 2022, etc. 
4) On VPE point rental ads range from $0.60 to $0.70.


----------



## pchung6

Dean said:


> As noted, that assumes the programs stay the same.  I think it's close to 100% certainty that will not be the case long term, how much it'll be different is the question.
> 
> Neither do I see them leaving those programs completely intact, best case scenario is likely that they stay intact other than volume as some are syphoned off for the DC.
> 
> There will be some that will be better off and some worse off with whatever happens, this is the nature off the beast.  And some of those will decide to exit as it always the case.  Likely most will stay and most will pay dues with whatever system ends up.
> 
> As I suspect and as noted in 8.3, it appears they have 100% control over the reservation procedures which normally includes points costs, reallocations, other resorts (which have less protection normally).  From a legal and contractual standpoint I suspect there are a LOT less protections than some think.



You are exactly right and thanks for pointing out for less protection than we think (we can sell as our last protection). Who knows what will happen in both programs, but in short term at least, our SVN owners will just continue to enjoy our great SVN program. The best scenario is to have the best of both systems, keep staroption reservation chart and the ability to use DC for a small fee. The worst scenario is they crack SVN down completely and face angry customers.  Of course anything can happen in between, and with TUG board, I will monitor it closely. I can always exit if things don't look right for Vistana program, so I think we are in perfectly spot with only something to gain. I'm excited about the future change.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Thanks all for the very helpful information.

*So if I understand the discussion so far, a basic formula to evaluate whether to enroll is this:
*

A) *If you plan to *_*Convert Points to Use for Trades  *_(edited/updated from feedback)
*
MF + $205 annual dues/# points* to convert = your annual cost per converted point

plus
*
Enrollment Fee/pt: *(Enrollment Fee ($?) divided by 10 or 20 year ownership horizon / your points

= *Your total cost per point.*

1) Multiply your cost per point by Points Required for desired trade (from MVC chart) = Cost per trade

2) Compare the trade cost to the Open Rental market Cost. If savings > 0 then keep

3) If savings < $0 then discard (you will rent on open market)

4) Add up the savings over 10 years of trades for each desired trade. If > 0 then enrolling may make sense but also look at alternatives SO/HGVC/RCI/II cost/hassle.

or

B) *If you plan to use your unit renting MVC Points Only*

*Cost of renting on open market *desired MVC properties over 10 years.  (# of properties * weekly rental from Redweek/Tug/getaways)
Minus
*Cost of renting enrolled points* (.65 avg * # of points for desired weeks over 10 years)
minus
*Enrollment Fees: *(Enrollment Fee ($?) + 10 years annual enrollment ($2050 ($205*10) + growth in fee)

*= Savings *If Savings > $0 then Enrolling may make sense but compare with alternatives e.g. using Staroptions/HGVC/II/RCI


Of course, many people would use a combination of A&B but one can build a spreadsheet to evaluate and customize to their personal situation.

*Bottom Line:* The decision to enroll will be bounded by your savings margin compared to the open rental market and cost of alternatives (using SOs/HGVC points/RCI/II).  The savings are driven by the:

cost of your underlying points based on MF at your property
desired trading resorts
how often you plan to rent or trade.


----------



## kds4

kds4 said:


> So, just returned from an enjoyable trip (prefer to not say where) and what I would consider to be the most beneficial 'owner update' I have been to. Very interesting discussion about the ILG acquisition and what changes are coming (or not coming) as a result. We talked about some important dates to remember, such as 2015 and October, 2019 (as examples). Told to expect a couple of significant emails this fall about DC changes coming that many owners have been wanting (as a result of the ILG acquisition). I realize that some folks may take the position that "if their lips were moving, don't believe it". That has often been my perspective as well during past presentations. However, I didn't just hear it, as it would take more than that to get me to buy more points (which I did). Stay tuned. This is about to get really interesting for MVCI owners.



Came across this post on Marriott Insiders last night from March 30, 2019 regarding the existence of a Marriott Destination Points buyback program. This post matches what I was told and the documents I reviewed regarding how the program operates for enrolled/trust points owners (whenever it is formally announced). I don't know how/where this person got their information, but it is another potential reference point. https://insiders.marriott.com/message/279664?commentID=279664#comment-279664. Scroll to the bottom of the thread to read the post.

_"Marriott does have a buy-back/resale program. Owners with resort weeks and Destination Points can convert their resort weeks to Destination Points. Then, sell back the combined Destination Points."_


----------



## pchung6

kds4 said:


> Came across this post on Marriott Insiders last night from March 30, 2019 regarding the existence of a Marriott Destination Points buyback program. This post matches what I was told and the documents I reviewed regarding how the program operates for enrolled/trust points owners (whenever it is formally announced). I don't know how/where this person got their information, but it is another potential reference point. https://insiders.marriott.com/message/279664?commentID=279664#comment-279664. Scroll to the bottom of the thread to read the post.
> 
> _"Marriott does have a buy-back/resale program. Owners with resort weeks and Destination Points can convert their resort weeks to Destination Points. Then, sell back the combined Destination Points."_



You are searching for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses.  This is called Confirmation Bias.  I hope you can listen and please RESCIND NOW.  You can always buy your points back after the announcement and price won't go up.


----------



## Fasttr

kds4 said:


> Came across this post on Marriott Insiders last night from March 30, 2019 regarding the existence of a Marriott Destination Points buyback program. This post matches what I was told and the documents I reviewed regarding how the program operates for enrolled/trust points owners (whenever it is formally announced). I don't know how/where this person got their information, but it is another potential reference point. https://insiders.marriott.com/message/279664?commentID=279664#comment-279664. Scroll to the bottom of the thread to read the post.
> 
> _"Marriott does have a buy-back/resale program. Owners with resort weeks and Destination Points can convert their resort weeks to Destination Points. Then, sell back the combined Destination Points."_


His comment about resale MF's in point 2 bullet 3 makes me believe he does not really know what is going on.


----------



## Fasttr

kds4 said:


> Came across this post on Marriott Insiders last night from March 30, 2019 regarding the existence of a Marriott Destination Points buyback program. This post matches what I was told and the documents I reviewed regarding how the program operates for enrolled/trust points owners (whenever it is formally announced).[/U][/I]


Curious if during your conversation, they hinted at what price the point buy backs would take place... or even a potential range.


----------



## JIMinNC

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks all for the very helpful information.
> 
> *So if I understand the discussion so far, a basic formula to evaluate whether to enroll is this:
> *
> 
> A) *If you plan to Convert Points to Use for Trades
> 
> MF/# points* to convert = your cost per point converted
> 
> plus
> *
> Enrollment Fee/pt: *(Enrollment Fee ($?) + 10 years annual enrollment ($2050 ($205*10) + growth in fee)/ your points value = Cost per point of enrollment fee
> 
> = *Your total cost per point.*
> 
> 1) Multiply your cost per point by Points Required for desired trade (from MVC chart) = Cost per trade
> 
> 2) Compare the trade cost to the Open Rental market Cost. If savings > 0 then keep
> 
> 3) If savings < $0 then discard (you will rent on open market)
> 
> 4) Add up the savings over 10 years of trades for each desired trade. If > 0 then enrolling may make sense but also look at alternatives SO/HGVC/RCI/II cost/hassle.



I'm not sure I understand why you are multiplying the $205 annual fee by 10 years? The annual fee is the annual membership dues, so it's paid annually in perpetuity just like a maintenance fee. If you want to understand your total cost/point then I think the proper formula would be would be *(MF+annual dues)/# points. *So, if you had a $1600 MF for 4500 points, your total cost would be (1600+205)/4500. That equals $0.40 per point.

Then if you see a reservation online that takes 3500 points (I think of them as reservations rather than trades, because you book it just like a hotel reservation rather than searching like you have to do for a trade), its $0.40 X 3500 = $1400 cost for that reservation booking. That is the cost you would compare to rental. So if rental costs $1800, your savings would be $400 on that booking.

You would also probably want to figure out how to handle the upfront cost of enrollment - the enrollment fee. In 2010 that ranged from $595 to $1995. So you would probably want to amortize that over 10-20 years. So if your enrollment cost was $1000, and if you decide to amortize over 15 years, then subtract $67 from your savings each year.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

JIMinNC said:


> I'm not sure I understand why you are multiplying the $205 annual fee by 10 years? The annual fee is the annual membership dues, so it's paid annually in perpetuity just like a maintenance fee. If you want to understand your total cost/point then I think the proper formula would be would be *(MF+annual dues)/# points. *So, if you had a $1600 MF for 4500 points, your total cost would be (1600+205)/4500. That equals $0.40 per point.
> 
> Then if you see a reservation online that takes 3500 points (I think of them as reservations rather than trades, because you book it just like a hotel reservation rather than searching like you have to do for a trade), its $0.40 X 3500 = $1400 cost for that reservation booking. That is the cost you would compare to rental. So if rental costs $1800, your savings would be $400 on that booking.
> 
> You would also probably want to figure out how to handle the upfront cost of enrollment - the enrollment fee. In 2010 that ranged from $595 to $1995. So you would probably want to amortize that over 10-20 years. So if your enrollment cost was $1000, and if you decide to amortize over 15 years, then subtract $67 from your savings each year.



Good points. I picked 10 years as arbitrary horizon and recognize that it could be 20 years or more. I will also edit the prior post to update for the annual dues which should be equivalent to MF in perpetuity per your guidance.


----------



## JIMinNC

CalGalTraveler said:


> Good points. I picked 10 years as arbitrary horizon and recognize that it could be 20 years or more. I will also edit the prior post to update for the annual dues which should be equivalent to MF in perpetuity per your guidance.



Saw your edits...one suggestion...I would label the $205 as annual dues, not annual enrollment fee, so as not to confuse with the upfront enrollment fee that you list right below that. The annual fee is dues; the upfront fee is for enrollment.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

So hypothetically for our situation with WKORVN OF:

$3110 ($2700 MF EOY +205 annual dues + 205 annual dues (off year)) divided by 7450 points (Low end Napili/Lahaina Towers point value) = *.417 cents per point cost
*
Now need to factor in the enrollment fee and amortize the cost of my unit over a time horizon.


----------



## kds4

Fasttr said:


> His comment about resale MF's in point 2 bullet 3 makes me believe he does not really know what is going on.


I noticed that too, but chalked it up to someone who may understand some aspects of something but not others. There are plenty of examples of that out there, not just in the timeshare world.


----------



## Ken555

CalGalTraveler said:


> So hypothetically for our situation with WKORVN OF:
> 
> $3110 ($2700 MF EOY +205 annual dues + 205 annual dues (off year)) divided by 7450 points (Low end Napili/Lahaina Towers point value) = *.417 cents per point cost
> *
> Now need to factor in the enrollment fee and amortize the cost of my unit over a time horizon.



Is it really $2700?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@Ken555 Sadly yes. II membership is included in that figure so it may decline a bit with the addition of annual dues.

However we bought this resale to stay there. Still a great deal if we use because if we lock it off we get 2 weeks Maui OF at $1350 a week. Compared to renting 2bdrm OF prime time is about $5000 / week plus we get top priority for view placement. During our last stay during peak season the front desk told us that were #1 in room priority because we were owners and booked exactly at midnight. We got one of the best rooms.

We've considered adding another week or a VSN trading unit but we also own 2 HGVC and use cash getaways and promo stays to stay elsewhere.  Currently we have more options than we need. But if we see a sweet VSN mandatory deal may pick one up.


----------



## JIMinNC

Fasttr said:


> His comment about resale MF's in point 2 bullet 3 makes me believe he does not really know what is going on.



Absolutely. Most of his counter arguments make no sense whatsoever. He also says that aftermarket resale weeks can only be used at that resort and can't be traded. Totally false. The comments are so slanted against aftermarket weeks, it makes me wonder if this guy is a sales rep.

Even in his first bullet, he says that owners with both weeks and points can convert their week to points and sell the combined points back to Marriott. That doesn't make sense. Why convert the week to points just to sell it back?

I do recall reading a couple posts in the last several months from posters on TUG saying Marriott offered to buy back their points. As I recall, the offers were somewhere around $2/point or a little more or less. I recall people saying a sure $2/point from Marriott might be a better deal than listing the points for $3.50 or $4 on the aftermarket and not knowing how long they would take to sell.


----------



## CPNY

_*Moderator Note*: content deleted. OP admits in later posts that it was fake. <--SueDonJ_


----------



## TXTortoise

_*Moderator Note*: quoted content deleted. OP admits in later posts that it was fake. <--SueDonJ_

Interesting...back link to source?


----------



## pchung6

_*Moderator Note*: quoted content deleted. OP admits in later posts that it was fake. <--SueDonJ_

Marriott is charging everyone just as we predicted earlier.


----------



## Fasttr

_*Moderator Note*: quoted content deleted. OP admits in later posts that it was fake. <--SueDonJ
_
Clearly more crap from those who don't understand the system.  DC Exchange, yes....DC Trust, no.  Fake News .


----------



## Dean

ocdb8r said:


> As regards SVN, I think you're right on.  People here generally seem to overestimate the protections they have.  I generally think two things go into MVC's thinking (and honestly, to Vistana and ILG before them):
> 
> 1) How do we orchestrate an exchange system that DOES comport with the actual deeded protections (which for floating week resorts generally says during a certain period - usually the home resort period - reservations are on a first-come first-served basis and without competition from non-home resort owners).  This may sound simple, but in practice the complications of a multi-trust/multi-brand overarching system, it's hard to manage inventory in a fluid way even respecting this basic principle.  Thus I suspect they try to create something that might technically violate this at times but generally ensures owners are happy and get reasonable access to their resort.  I have long suspected that if MVC or SVN reservation systems were audited, there would certainly be some technical violations of the specific requirements in deeds.
> 
> 2) How do we orchestrate a system that doesn't marginalize or alienate any single group of owners (at a specific resort or within a specific system).  Basically, I do believe they are motivated to institute something that is (or at least can be "sold" as) fair.  Even if they have wide latitude to make big changes in existing systems or new systems, any short-term gain they can make by taking advantage of this latitude comes at the price of long-term gains.  Thus far I think MVC has kept this in mind and taken a pretty fair and balanced approach (certainly not perfect) to the DC.


They certainly have a lot to balance with these systems.  I think it's clear they're not going to run them as separate entities which then raises the questions of how they will integrate them.  I'm sure they'd like to keep as many happy as possible and get as many as possible into the DC system over time.  Without knowing the intricacies of the legal documents, their ideal situation would be to do away with the respective points systems and just run it all with either the underlying week or the DC.  This may not be possible or it may not be possible for all of the resorts which might mean they do a hybrid like Asia Pacific or it might mean they move on some of the resorts.  I would be surprised if there were no provisions to exit a given resort from it's system and that's the least common denominator I suspect.  But as the salesman said at our presentation when I asked about this, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.  There will be a chunk of people who are not happy and a chunk of those that are vocal about it.  The next year or 2 should be very interesting and entertaining.  



pchung6 said:


> You are exactly right and thanks for pointing out for less protection than we think (we can sell as our last protection). Who knows what will happen in both programs, but in short term at least, our SVN owners will just continue to enjoy our great SVN program. The best scenario is to have the best of both systems, keep staroption reservation chart and the ability to use DC for a small fee. The worst scenario is they crack SVN down completely and face angry customers.  Of course anything can happen in between, and with TUG board, I will monitor it closely. I can always exit if things don't look right for Vistana program, so I think we are in perfectly spot with only something to gain. I'm excited about the future change.


I too see more positive than negative, I'll be interested in the responses here in a few months.


----------



## JIMinNC

_*Moderator Note*: quoted content deleted. OP admits in later posts that it was fake. <--SueDonJ_

Doesn't ring as legit for at least two reasons:

1) Owners can't deposit their units into the DC Trust. Only Marriott can deed weeks into the Trust; owners must deposit their weeks into the DC Exchange.
2) The use of "MVG". What is that? There is no such entity that I'm aware of with those initials. Marriott Vacation Club is MVC. The parent company is Marriott Vacations Worldwide (MVW). I've seen some posters here on TUG use the MVG acronym, but that would never show up in anything official.

I think the quoted post is an attempt at sarcasm back to the original post that stated this all...given the subsequent comments.


----------



## Fasttr

_*Moderator Note*: quoted content deleted. OP admits in later posts that it was fake. <--SueDonJ
_
Since we are using our senses.... I smell something, and it certainly doesn't smell like a PDF.  ;-)


----------



## JIMinNC

_*Moderator Note*: quoted content deleted. OP admits in later posts that it was fake. <--SueDonJ_

This discussion had moved way beyond the original post and some of the contentious comments that followed. It had actually evolved into a reasonable and informed discussion about what *might* happen in the months ahead - with honest evaluation of pros and cons. I see no value in re-litigating the OP. It risks causing this thread to degenerate again and receiving the wrath of the Moderators. Why dredge that up again?


----------



## TXTortoise

With a few exceptions I always felt that the Facebook Marriott groups were somewhat like high school, with a few folks having a clue while most are just typing to see their words and express their narrow understanding as gospel, even if well intentioned....while TUG was college level, with thoughtful, polite comments from folks that take time to listen for awhile and integrate with the group before they share their thoughts, and hopefully add value.

This thread almost got back to being valuable, but seems like the freshmen class keeps dragging everyone back down.  Did this happen back in 2010?


----------



## Ken555

TUG needs a dislike button.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SMB1

CPNY said:


> Let me start with I think it’s difficult to compare a timeshare point system to one of a loyalty program where their points are gifts. They throw points at people to retain their business you’re at the mercy of the master in that case. Contracts weren’t signed and there’s is little to zero repercussions in program changes and devaluations.
> 
> Moving onto Vistana weeks and flex program. It wasn’t set up like DC. You never have to enroll your week or pay any fee. Mandatory means the resort you bought into HAS to be enrolled in the VSN with access to book any resort with the assigned star options your deed is worth. Think of it a hybrid week/DC kind of ownership. The mandatory means that if I sell my developer purchase to you for 100 bucks you get that same benefit because contractually, that week has to be a member in the network. It’s a coveted deed.
> 
> Voluntary means ONLY the developer purchase is enrolled. So once it’s a resale you are no longer a member in the VSN and your star option allotment is only able to be booked back into your home resort where you own. Now you have priority 12-8 months at check in or exchange in II. You can pick those up for free on the marketplace.
> 
> Flex ownership is fairly new. Extremely new for westin. The Sheraton flex a few years while Westin and Aventura flex is the newest. Think of those as mini DC programs but only using your points in each resort in each brand. Those are also “voluntary” interests. If you bought from developer you get priority booking in the resorts in the flex you bought into then at 8 months you can book any resort in the network. Essentially you’re deeded into every week in the season you buy at every resort in the flex, with booking all resorts at 8 months. But the buyer on resale loses the right to book other resorts.
> 
> Now, people didn’t have to enroll their weeks into these flex programs. They gave back their deeds and Vistana was giving them “Monopoly money” toward the purchase of a new flex program, which = a new developer purchase. A savvy owner who owned a mandatory week would never do that. But An owner who doesn’t know much would, especially when high pressure sales guys are telling you they will give you money toward a new purchase the customer might think that’s a good buy. Keep in mind, many owners go on their “update” thinking that’s what it is, an actual update to the resort and are hoping to hear they are putting in a new racket ball court or new water slides. That’s never the case. It’s a sales pitch and people get suckered into buying more. I digress.
> 
> However you could always retro your deeded week. say if you bought a voluntary deed on resale and wanted those staroptions to be a member in the VSN to be booked anywhere else, then you would have to make a minimum developer purchase and they would re enroll that voluntary deed you picked up on resale and brought it into the network.
> 
> As an owner of mandatory properties I got on resale cheap with the ability to book in VSN I’m pretty content and can’t see myself giving up what i have and then giving them possibly thousands more  to book a Marriott. I’ll just rent my week to cover maint fees then rent a MVC property on the marketplace. Then I will always have the availability I want as well
> 
> Like I tell people, if you’re not gonna buy resale, just rent on the marketplace, join timeshare rental groups on social media, check eBay! Sometimes you pay less than MF.



Thanks for the lesson.  I have a better understanding, and sounds like mandatory properties are definitely the way to go in VSN.  I think I like the idea that I can keep my Marriott weeks and elect points if/when I want rather than having to give back the week and purchase DC like a voluntary VSN week.  But if you could enroll a mandatory week in DC for a low initial fee, gain the corporate II acount, and ability to keep your week, or elect DC points with it, IMO you would be wise to do so.  Best of both worlds.  



pchung6 said:


> This is crazy. I can get almost 2 Westin Kierland deeds with that price that can get me 2 weeks at Maui with $1600 MF per week. or 4 weeks if I lock off.





CPNY said:


> Yeah 7,895 transfer fee. Maybe the buy in was 5K. Wow that’s insanity. I’ll be more than happy with a westing kierland villas deeded week



You can do the same with a resale Marriott legacy week.  Doesn't have to be enrolled.  No $8,000 qualifying fee.  Just buy the week to use, trade, or rent like a VSN voluntary week.



CPNY said:


> And still have it to this day? Hey, we could have best of both. Who knows how it shakes out. I just don’t want to be tripping over everyone for availability in my favorite resorts.



Yes we still have the best of both worlds.  I wouldn't be too concerned about availability. I was very skeptical in the beginning of the DC as well. I thought all these people buying DC points, which effectively were for mud weeks at ski resorts or summer in the desert, would create tremendous competition for prime weeks. However I learned, that much like Wyndham, this flexibility allowed people to take one bedrooms or studios instead of two bedrooms if they didn't need them. It allowed them to book multiple weeks in the off-season instead of their one week in prime season. This allows the owner to stretch his or her points. And it allows others who may have had an island view unit or an off-season unit to book during prime season or ocean front or whatever. Although I was skeptical in 2010 after our first DC booking we have elected points every year. We haven't used II since 2010. We have been 100% happy with availability. And I'm a teacher, so we have to travel prime time all the time.We have even purchased trust points.  

I originally felt like many Marriott and VSN in owners have expressed in this thread, that I didn't want competition from VSN owners regarding access to the Marriott properties and that I didn't care much about the VSN properties. I guess I'm skeptical at first.  I'll never go to Mexico and Marriott has great properties most of the other places VSN does.  But I read somewhere here that VSN has superior ski resorts.  If so, I'd definitely take advantage of that.  Sounds like the Hawaii resorts are great.  I'd take advantage of that.   I'm sure there would be other benefits as well.

There are some Marriott owners who are not as happy with the DC as me and will never enroll, or have but will never elect.  Each to his own.  But I am 100% sure that, if VSN owners have the opportunity to join the DC (or comparable program) some/many, who are skeptical now, years down the road will wonder how they ever survived without the flexibility afforded by this option.  

Deposit, request, wait and see? Cross my fingers? Pay an exchange fee?  Pay a lockoff fee? An upgrade fee?  Guest certificate fee?  Never again.  Transaction fee?  Cancellation fee? Housekeeping credits?  I don't know about VSN, but I do know II and Wyndham nickel and dime with this fee and that fee.  None of this with Marriott...  though you might pay more up front.


----------



## StevenTing

I was 200 posts behind.  Just got caught up.  My brain hurts now.

But really, why worry about it until it happens?  I have what I have and I'm likely not going to change or purchase more.  Enjoy what you own.


----------



## CPNY

SMB1 said:


> Thanks for the lesson.  I have a better understanding, and sounds like mandatory properties are definitely the way to go in VSN.  I think I like the idea that I can keep my Marriott weeks and elect points if/when I want rather than having to give back the week and purchase DC like a voluntary VSN week.  But if you could enroll a mandatory week in DC for a low initial fee, gain the corporate II acount, and ability to keep your week, or elect DC points with it, IMO you would be wise to do so.  Best of both worlds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can do the same with a resale Marriott legacy week.  Doesn't have to be enrolled.  No $8,000 qualifying fee.  Just buy the week to use, trade, or rent like a VSN voluntary week.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes we still have the best of both worlds.  I wouldn't be too concerned about availability. I was very skeptical in the beginning of the DC as well. I thought all these people buying DC points, which effectively were for mud weeks at ski resorts or summer in the desert, would create tremendous competition for prime weeks. However I learned, that much like Wyndham, this flexibility allowed people to take one bedrooms or studios instead of two bedrooms if they didn't need them. It allowed them to book multiple weeks in the off-season instead of their one week in prime season. This allows the owner to stretch his or her points. And it allows others who may have had an island view unit or an off-season unit to book during prime season or ocean front or whatever. Although I was skeptical in 2010 after our first DC booking we have elected points every year. We haven't used II since 2010. We have been 100% happy with availability. And I'm a teacher, so we have to travel prime time all the time.We have even purchased trust points.
> 
> I originally felt like many Marriott and VSN in owners have expressed in this thread, that I didn't want competition from VSN owners regarding access to the Marriott properties and that I didn't care much about the VSN properties. I guess I'm skeptical at first.  I'll never go to Mexico and Marriott has great properties most of the other places VSN does.  But I read somewhere here that VSN has superior ski resorts.  If so, I'd definitely take advantage of that.  Sounds like the Hawaii resorts are great.  I'd take advantage of that.   I'm sure there would be other benefits as well.
> 
> There are some Marriott owners who are not as happy with the DC as me and will never enroll, or have but will never elect.  Each to his own.  But I am 100% sure that, if VSN owners have the opportunity to join the DC (or comparable program) some/many, who are skeptical now, years down the road will wonder how they ever survived without the flexibility afforded by this option.
> 
> Deposit, request, wait and see? Cross my fingers? Pay an exchange fee?  Pay a lockoff fee? An upgrade fee?  Guest certificate fee?  Never again.  Transaction fee?  Cancellation fee? Housekeeping credits?  I don't know about VSN, but I do know II and Wyndham nickel and dime with this fee and that fee.  None of this with Marriott...  though you might pay more up front.


Yeah I would enroll if I could keep best of both worlds, the kicker is which deeds do i keep? Also, if I enroll my mandatory if that’s what they require, would I lose the ability to be in the SVN if they keep it? I’d hope it wouldn’t add any restrictions to the ownership, since it would be harder to “exit”. But I would def have to see how the whole thing shakes out.


----------



## dioxide45

ocdb8r said:


> Theoretically your two scenarios should balance each other out a bit; an increase in alternatives should increase people exchanging for DC points in order to visit new locations (i.e. more Aruba people drop their weeks into the DC in order to gain access to Mexico, St. John and Harborside while more Mexico, St. John and Harborside owners drop their weeks into the DC to gain access to DC resorts).  However, what you point out is an inherent problem with the system: a) the DC trust owns no Aruba weeks (which you pointed out) and b) (more importantly) Aruba weeks were undervalued in DC points compared to their demand - Aruba owners are not incentivized sufficiently to turn their weeks in as in many cases they can't get enough points to travel to a comparable destination.


The problem with Aruba is the way that Marriott valued weeks when they rolled out DC back in 2010. Apparently they didn't really do it based on demand. They just looked at the last known sales price of the week and divided it by ten to get the DC point values. I am sure there were a few other factors involved, but many of the values, when you look at them, are pretty closely tied to the sales price of those weeks. They then setup the points chart to make a reservation based on demand. So Aruba didnt get very allocated very high point values.

This is where they have a problem with Vistana. Places like Westin Kierland Villas had a very high sales price as compared to Marriott resorts in the area. I think WKV Plat+ sold for close to $60K. The same is true for Lagunamar. That is much higher than Marriott sold Canyon Villas for. Vistana could command those higher prices because of how they setup their StarOption chart. A WKV Plat+ week could easily book in to a Hawaii week. So they were selling Hawaii in Scottsdale. Can they really give WKV week owners 5,000-6,000 DC points for their weeks when they would perhaps only charge 4,000 for the highest season week there? Not really because it would create a huge imbalance. People would convert to DC points and use those to book back in to WKV and have plenty of points leftover. Or they would book longer stays at WKV and people would effectively be locked out of booking back in because demand would be much higher than supply.

It will be intersting to see how they allocate these points and the vallues they assign to them along with how much they charge to book weeks at some of these properties.


----------



## dioxide45

ocdb8r said:


> As regards SVN, I think you're right on. People here generally seem to overestimate the protections they have. I generally think two things go into MVC's thinking (and honestly, to Vistana and ILG before them):


THere certainly are not a lot of protections. Vistana can change VSN or eliminate it at will. I think the challenge is the mandatory properties. If they simply say DC is the new VSN, you now have five resorts where resale weeks have an in to the DC program. We know Marriott has a huge hatred of resales. They lock out all post 6/20/2010 resale weeks from enrolling unless they pay uber cash to bring it in to the system with a new points purchase. They also charge huge initiation fees to resale DC points. So I can't see them just making DC the new VSN.

THey could eliminate VSN and start up DC and require Vistana owners to buy in or enroll to have access to the new system. This of course equals a third of your owner base that is POed. Or they could add an additional layer like many are speculating here. Only time will tell which path they follow.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> Yeah I would enroll if I could keep best of both worlds, the kicker is which deeds do i keep? Also, if I enroll my mandatory if that’s what they require, would I lose the ability to be in the SVN if they keep it? I’d hope it wouldn’t add any restrictions to the ownership, since it would be harder to “exit”. But I would def have to see how the whole thing shakes out.



Just remember, with the DC, enrollment DOES NOT mean you give up your deed. You still keep your deed and all the rights you have with that. The DC is an ADDED benefit on top of that. So, if they follow that same model going forward, then you will never have to give up your deed, and whatever system they devise will be on top of your basic deed rights.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> Just remember, with the DC, enrollment DOES NOT mean you give up your deed. You still keep your deed and all the rights you have with that. The DC is an ADDED benefit on top of that. So, if they follow that same model going forward, then you will never have to give up your deed, and whatever system they devise will be on top of your basic deed rights.


Well then, I’m all in if it’s a decent buy in! Just hope my resales I signed the contract with yesterday close in time


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> Well then, I’m all in if it’s a decent buy in! Just hope my resales I signed the contract with yesterday close in time



Based on the earnings call comments from Steve Weisz, the implication was it will be 2020 before any integrated product form is unveiled. So you should be good.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> Based on the earnings call comments from Steve Weisz, the implication was it will be 2020 before any integrated product form is unveiled. So you should be good.



Tell Steve to push it toward the end of 2020. Let the program go smoothly. We don’t want a disaster in system issues before booking for summer vacations lol. Think bonvoy haha. Plus I’ll have more time to pick up more units.


----------



## Ken555

If renting points is really at or just over MF, then why would any of us buy more than a single week unless we were certain we wanted to use these resorts every year onward?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Fasttr

Ken555 said:


> If renting points is really at or just over MF, then why would any of us buy more than a single week unless we were certain we wanted to use these resorts every year onward?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You are certainly not the first to point this out.   It does make you scratch your head.  Only potential issue with renting the points as your sole strategy is if MVC, at some point, puts restrictions on point transfers like some other systems have.  But that bridge can be crossed when/if it presents itself.  I am surprised the point renters don’t band together and drive the rental price up a bit,  but so far, it has yet to happen.


----------



## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> If renting points is really at or just over MF, then why would any of us buy more than a single week unless we were certain we wanted to use these resorts every year onward?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Rented points do have other restrictions though. You can't bank them or move them out of the year they are for. So if you have to cancel your stay you could be SOL. Renting can be a pain sometimes, you have to go out and find a renter, trust enough to hand over the dough and hope they transfer the points. While the risk is low, there is the possibility of scams. VPE has some protections against that, but nothing is foolproof.

Also consider that some people have weeks where their blended MF is in the $0.30-$0.40 pp range. Yours could be too. So renting at $0.70 is a pretty big price to pay if you need a lot of points.


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## Ken555

Fasttr said:


> You are certainly not the first to point this out.   It does make you scratch your head.  Only potential issue with renting the points as your sole strategy is if MVC, at some point, puts restrictions on point transfers like some other systems have.  But that bridge can be crossed when/if it presents itself.  I am surprised the point renters don’t band together and drive the rental price up a bit,  but so far, it has yet to happen.



Is there an official place to rent points? Can a rental be completed between two owners independently? Is there oversight performed by Marriott on the renting of points? 

I would suspect it was created primarily as a means to reimburse MFs during those years you cannot travel, so renting near MF cost makes sense from that perspective. Still, if it's as easy a transaction as this thread makes it seem to be it certainly should be another method for travel...and only require one week.


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## vacationtime1

Ken555 said:


> Is there an official place to rent points? Can a rental be completed between two owners independently? Is there oversight performed by Marriott on the renting of points?
> 
> I would suspect it was created primarily as a means to reimburse MFs during those years you cannot travel, so renting near MF cost makes sense from that perspective. Still, if it's as easy a transaction as this thread makes it seem to be it certainly should be another method for travel...and only require one week.



See www.vacationpointexchange.com -- moderated by our own Steven Ting


----------



## JIMinNC

Ken555 said:


> If renting points is really at or just over MF, then why would any of us buy more than a single week unless we were certain we wanted to use these resorts every year onward?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




Point rental costs are only slightly more than the MF cost of *TRUST* points. Trust Points MF is $0.58 and point rentals are listed in the $0.60 - $0.70 range.

The maintenance fees for *enrolled weeks* can be very different. The per point cost for an enrolled week depends on the MF of the week and how many points it yields. Here are some examples from toward the extremes, but there are many data points between these edge examples:

Grande Ocean, HHI, 2BR OF Platinum - MF of $1491 for 5075 points = $0.29
Maui Ocean Club 2BR OF Platinum - MF of $2296 for 6450 points = $0.37
Desert Springs Villas 2BR Blue - MF of $1627 for 1875 points = $0.87
Grande Ocean, HHI, 2BR OS Bronze - MF of $1491 for 775 points = $1.92

Obviously with GO Platinum and Maui, the high point allocation helps lower the cost per point, whereas with the Bronze Hilton Head Grande Ocean and Desert Springs examplea, its a Bronze (winter) week or Blue week worth few points, but it has the same maintenance fee as a peak season week, thus a high cost per point.


----------



## Fasttr

Ken555 said:


> Is there an official place to rent points? Can a rental be completed between two owners independently? Is there oversight performed by Marriott on the renting of points?
> 
> I would suspect it was created primarily as a means to reimburse MFs during those years you cannot travel, so renting near MF cost makes sense from that perspective. Still, if it's as easy a transaction as this thread makes it seem to be it certainly should be another method for travel...and only require one week.


www.vacationpointexchange.com and www.ownertrades.com both run by TUGgers.   Deal is totally between two individual parties.  Only need MVC to transfer the points between accounts.  They don’t care, or even ask, why you are transferring them.


----------



## JIMinNC

Ken555 said:


> Is there an official place to rent points? Can a rental be completed between two owners independently? Is there oversight performed by Marriott on the renting of points?
> 
> I would suspect it was created primarily as a means to reimburse MFs during those years you cannot travel, so renting near MF cost makes sense from that perspective. Still, if it's as easy a transaction as this thread makes it seem to be it certainly should be another method for travel...and only require one week.



All of the point rentals on VPE are between owners independently. No oversight by Marriott. Totally a person-to-person marketplace.

Renting only requires one enrolled week or a base interest (1500 points) in Trust points.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

.


Fasttr said:


> You are certainly not the first to point this out.   It does make you scratch your head.  Only potential issue with renting the points as your sole strategy is if MVC, at some point, puts restrictions on point transfers like some other systems have.  But that bridge can be crossed when/if it presents itself.  I am surprised the point renters don’t band together and drive the rental price up a bit,  but so far, it has yet to happen.





I think the rental price of points has not been driven too far up because I believe "a flood" of points are on the market (in my opinion).




.


----------



## SueDonJ

TXTortoise said:


> With a few exceptions I always felt that the Facebook Marriott groups were somewhat like high school, with a few folks having a clue while most are just typing to see their words and express their narrow understanding as gospel, even if well intentioned....while TUG was college level, with thoughtful, polite comments from folks that take time to listen for awhile and integrate with the group before they share their thoughts, and hopefully add value.
> 
> This thread almost got back to being valuable, but seems like the freshmen class keeps dragging everyone back down.  Did this happen back in 2010?


YES!

Granted, it was confusing for everyone because Marriott didn't drop anything but the actual legal documents at the outset and it took the combined knowledge of many long-time owners/TUGgers to parse through and come to an agreement of what most made sense.

But I'll admit and I'm sure many others will as well that it was absolutely infuriating to have to repeatedly push back against aspects that were completely misunderstood by people who appeared to only be looking for things that would justify their pre-conceived ideas. And I'm not talking about "misunderstood" based on opinions - some of the things that repeatedly came up as justification for hating the system simply couldn't and wouldn't pass the smell test based on the legal documents. I fear that if the same ridiculous pushback happens with whatever Marriott rolls out for Vistana/Hyatt, Marriott TUGgers will simply walk away from the discussions when they lose patience. Why would we continue, after all, when we've already been through it?


----------



## controller1

I realize there are "Marriott TUGgers" and Vistana TUGgers but I also believe when those terms are used it further punctuates we vs. them.  I wish we could all come together and be receptive to learning and not sounding accusatory.


----------



## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> Rented points do have other restrictions though. You can't bank them or move them out of the year they are for. So if you have to cancel your stay you could be SOL. Renting can be a pain sometimes, you have to go out and find a renter, trust enough to hand over the dough and hope they transfer the points. While the risk is low, there is the possibility of scams. VPE has some protections against that, but nothing is foolproof.



Okay, this seems to indicate that Marriott is not involved in the process of renting points. 



> Also consider that some people have weeks where their blended MF is in the $0.30-$0.40 pp range. Yours could be too. So renting at $0.70 is a pretty big price to pay if you need a lot of points.



Yes, of course. For myself, I track costs based on my per night cost each year per week. I use my WKV 148k StarOptions for internal trades typically in studio and 1-bed units, and this year am redeeming for 25 nights (which includes 11 nights in Kauai), so my cost is just under $73 per night (after the required housekeeping fees, which are assessed for all but the first two stays). Using 2019 average nightly cost of $73 (after HK) that would be ~850 Marriott points for a week. So... can I get a week in a 1-bed in the Marriott network most weeks of the year? I reviewed the MVC points PDF and it seems there are some undesirable locations over Dec and Jan (Hilton Head, etc) for <1000 points. I didn't review every resort cost but generally I doubt I would be able to keep my ~$73/night cost when renting points. And, there's no way I will stay at a Marriott studio since that's really just a hotel room (no washer/dryer, no kitchen (perhaps a microwave and dorm refrigerator), very small, and nothing like VSNs studios or small 1-bed units). With this in mind, I tend to doubt I would rent points other than when needed in exceptional situations.

Also, many of these less costly Marriott resorts seem to be available via II. Now that it's really one company I'm curious to see how they approach inventory availability via II vs Marriott vs whatever else they offer. My suspicion is that they will promote the network as the premiere method to obtain weeks but that they will also have some weeks available via II for those who simply won't pay more. This way Marriott gets all the money...


----------



## sjsharkie

dioxide45 said:


> This is where they have a problem with Vistana. Places like Westin Kierland Villas had a very high sales price as compared to Marriott resorts in the area. I think WKV Plat+ sold for close to $60K. The same is true for Lagunamar. That is much higher than Marriott sold Canyon Villas for. Vistana could command those higher prices because of how they setup their StarOption chart. A WKV Plat+ week could easily book in to a Hawaii week. So they were selling Hawaii in Scottsdale. Can they really give WKV week owners 5,000-6,000 DC points for their weeks when they would perhaps only charge 4,000 for the highest season week there? Not really because it would create a huge imbalance. People would convert to DC points and use those to book back in to WKV and have plenty of points leftover. Or they would book longer stays at WKV and people would effectively be locked out of booking back in because demand would be much higher than supply.


Dioxide makes a great point here.  WKV values continue to be inflated by the fact that it is (1) mandatory, and (2) plat plus season commands equal trade-in value to a week in Hawaii.  I will make the argument that I think it is has much nicer units and facilities than Canyon Villas IMHO as I have stayed at both, but not sure it would deserve a 25%-50% premium based on the numbers Dioxide shows.

Maybe that is why I foresee a program layered on top of the existing DC and VSN programs.  Marriott then collects a fee (either per transaction and/or one-time per unit enrollment and/or skim off of the conversion) for "affiliate access" to the other program(s).  Well, maybe that is my hope anyway since I own at WKV.

Time will tell I guess.

-ryan


----------



## Ken555

JIMinNC said:


> Point rental costs are only slightly more than the MF cost of *TRUST* points. Trust Points MF is $0.58 and point rentals are listed in the $0.60 - $0.70 range.
> 
> The maintenance fees for *enrolled weeks* can be very different. The per point cost for an enrolled week depends on the MF of the week and how many points it yields. Here are some examples from toward the extremes, but there are many data points between these two edge examples:
> 
> Grande Ocean, HHI, 2BR OF Platinum - MF of $1491 for 5075 points = $0.29
> Maui Ocean Club 2BR OF Platinum - MF of $2296 for 6450 points = $0.37
> Desert Springs Villas 2BR Blue - MF of $1627 for 1875 points = $0.87
> Grande Ocean, HHI, 2BR OS Bronze - MF of $1491 for 775 points = $1.92
> 
> Obviously with GO Platinum and Maui, the high point allocation helps lower the cost per point, whereas with the Bronze Hilton Head Grande Ocean and Desert Springs examplea, its a Bronze (winter) week or Blue week worth few points, but it has the same maintenance fee as a peak season week, thus a high cost per point.



Okay, so the baseline reference that points are at MF cost is referring to the cost of trust points. Gotcha. 

Based on these examples, it does seem foolish for me (I'm only talking about myself now...) to rent on the market, other than in exceptional situations. If I want to travel more then I would purchase another week with a low cost per point benefit. 

As for the difference in season value, we have the same exact issue with VSN and always have. This is why I bought a WKV Platinum Plus week and not a Bronze week.


----------



## SueDonJ

controller1 said:


> I realize there are "Marriott TUGgers" and Vistana TUGgers but I also believe when those terms are used it further punctuates we vs. them.  I wish we could all come together and be receptive to learning and not sounding accusatory.



I've always used the term "Marriott TUGgers" to talk about the longtime regulars on the TUG Marriott forum who've developed a reputation for being, as the saying goes, smarter than the average bear. In my mind there are also "Vistana TUGgers" and "Wyndham TUGgers" and "Resale TUGgers" and "Rental TUGgers" etc. Absolutely nothing derogatory is intended, and I apologize for coming across that way.


----------



## SueDonJ

Ken555 said:


> Okay, this seems to indicate that Marriott is not involved in the process of renting points. ...



Right. The governing docs explicitly allow Points transfers between member accounts, but MVW doesn't offer Points on a rental basis. It would be good if they did, even if it was on as limited a basis as Disney Vacation Club allows its members (I believe only a small amount can be rented each year, and they must correlate immediately to a reservation for which the member doesn't have other Points s/he can use?)


----------



## bazzap

SueDonJ said:


> I've always used the term "Marriott TUGgers" to talk about the longtime regulars on the TUG Marriott forum who've developed a reputation for being, as the saying goes, smarter than the average bear. In my mind there are also "Vistana TUGgers" and "Wyndham TUGgers" and "Resale TUGgers" and "Rental TUGgers" etc. Absolutely nothing derogatory is intended, and I apologize for coming across that way.


For me, this is an issue I hadn’t even considered before?
I do dip into other Forums, although this is definitely the one I primarily use.
I have only ever thought about and referenced “TUGgers”, so the idea of “XXXXX TUGgers” has never even crossed my mind.


----------



## CPNY

sjsharkie said:


> Dioxide makes a great point here.  WKV values continue to be inflated by the fact that it is (1) mandatory, and (2) plat plus season commands equal trade-in value to a week in Hawaii.  I will make the argument that I think it is has much nicer units and facilities than Canyon Villas IMHO as I have stayed at both, but not sure it would deserve a 25%-50% premium based on the numbers Dioxide shows.
> 
> Maybe that is why I foresee a program layered on top of the existing DC and VSN programs.  Marriott then collects a fee (either per transaction and/or one-time per unit enrollment and/or skim off of the conversion) for "affiliate access" to the other program(s).  Well, maybe that is my hope anyway since I own at WKV.
> 
> Time will tell I guess.
> 
> -ryan



I think a one Time enrollment per week/VOI for something like “affiliate access” + a per transaction booking could be a possibility. They could Assign a value similar to DC points to the VOI you own in Vistana just to keep it all uniform. If you drop you DC points in, you’ll only see VSN resorts and vice versa. OR VSN owners have to enroll their VOI’s into the DC program for a larger fee. It will be fun to see how this all turns out in the end.


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## vacationtime1

dioxide45 said:


> This is where they have a problem with Vistana. Places like Westin Kierland Villas had a very high sales price as compared to Marriott resorts in the area. I think WKV Plat+ sold for close to $60K. The same is true for Lagunamar. That is much higher than Marriott sold Canyon Villas for. Vistana could command those higher prices because of how they setup their StarOption chart. A WKV Plat+ week could easily book in to a Hawaii week. So they were selling Hawaii in Scottsdale. *Can they really give WKV week owners 5,000-6,000 DC points for their weeks when they would perhaps only charge 4,000 for the highest season week there? *Not really because it would create a huge imbalance. People would convert to DC points and use those to book back in to WKV and have plenty of points leftover. Or they would book longer stays at WKV and people would effectively be locked out of booking back in because demand would be much higher than supply.
> 
> It will be intersting to see how they allocate these points and the vallues they assign to them along with how much they charge to book weeks at some of these properties.



A two bedroom WKV rents for ~$3,700 during prime season (March).  So if they don't offer approx 6000 DC points (6000 DC points @ $0.60 = $3,600) , owners will find it more profitable to rent their weeks rather than to elect points and MVC will have no inventory.

Also, a DC cost of less than about 6000 DC points to reserve the unit would permit one to rent the unit for far less than its rental value by renting DC points @ ~ $0.60 (if the price were 4000 DC points, one could rent enough points for $2,400).


----------



## JIMinNC

Fasttr said:


> You are certainly not the first to point this out.   It does make you scratch your head.  Only potential issue with renting the points as your sole strategy is if MVC, at some point, puts restrictions on point transfers like some other systems have.  But that bridge can be crossed when/if it presents itself.  I am surprised the point renters don’t band together and drive the rental price up a bit,  but so far, it has yet to happen.



As I'm sure you know, collusion to set prices is illegal, so I would hope they would not do this. It's too small of a business to attract antitrust attention, but it would harm those of us who want to rent points. Hopefully there will also be enough small renters willing to cut prices that the mega-renters can't set the market price.


----------



## SueDonJ

[Deleted after realizing I fell for a colossal waste of time.]


----------



## SueDonJ

[Deleted after realizing I fell for a colossal waste of time.]


----------



## JIMinNC

SueDonJ said:


> Aspects of the II platform have been a back-channel component of the DC since its inception, with Marriott utilizing II systems and employees. I'd need to see official documentation in order to believe that eventually all of us under the MVW umbrella are working within the well-established II points system.



You may have missed the few posts to follow these you have quoted in posts #460 and 470 that uncovered that CPNY's post that started  "This just in...", plus the one you quoted in 470 was a spoof of the original post in this thread. As is often the term used now, it's just fake news designed as a humorous spoof.


----------



## SueDonJ

JIMinNC said:


> You may have missed the few posts to follow these you have quoted in posts #460 and 470 that uncovered that CPNY's post that started  "This just in..." was a spoof of the original post in this thread. As is often the term used now, it's just fake news designed as a humorous spoof.



GGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.  Did I really just waste a ridiculous amount of time responding to something FAKE?!


----------



## JIMinNC

SueDonJ said:


> GGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.  Did I really just waste a ridiculous amount of time responding to something FAKE?!



Read posts 430-435


----------



## sjsharkie

vacationtime1 said:


> A two bedroom WKV rents for ~$3,700 during prime season (March).  So if they don't offer approx 6000 DC points (6000 DC points @ $0.60 = $3,600) , owners will find it more profitable to rent their weeks rather than to elect points and MVC will have no inventory.
> 
> Also, a DC cost of less than about 6000 DC points to reserve the unit would permit one to rent the unit for far less than its rental value by renting DC points @ ~ $0.60 (if the price were 4000 DC points, one could rent enough points for $2,400).


But that is one month out of the year.  I own here, and rent out during that season -- I assure you that other weeks outside of prime spring training (3-4 weeks at best) do not rent for close to $3700.  Even weeks 51 and 52 do not regularly command that price.  (and I'll conjecture that Canyon Villas also rents for a premium during those same 3-4 weeks)

So yes, owners who nab those weeks may be able to rent, but there is not enough demand to satisfy everyone who wants to rent, and not everyone who owns wants to go through the hassle of renting.  While I see your argument, using a $3700 rental price is a bit flawed as there are only 3-4 weeks of inventory that will generate that type of income.  That would be like comparing Harborside which rents for a premium in weeks 51 and 52 and comparing it to other weeks in the platinum plus season.

That being said, I stand by my comment that WKV is much nicer than Canyon Villas (that pool is a zoo and over capacity when I stayed during the summer) and that it should command a premium over it -- how much is the question.

-ryan


----------



## SueDonJ

JIMinNC said:


> Read posts 430-435



In case you can't hear me, I'm cursing loudly. But you already know that. 

@CPNY, this kind of nonsense is exactly what I was talking about when I said that people who have been through this already could be driven away from the discussion. As a participant, I'm asking you to not waste any of our time and goodwill again. As a TUG moderator, I'm telling you that next time will be the last time.


----------



## sjsharkie

I can see that Canyon Villas on Redweek rents for about $2400-$2700ish during those same weeks.  So maybe a 25% to 50% is not far off per Dioxide's post.

-ryan


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

SueDonJ said:


> GGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.  Did I really just waste a ridiculous amount of time responding to something FAKE?!





Yes, you did spend a lot of time and effort in responding to a fake post and I for one am sorry that you had to do that.

Most of us (if not all of us) really appreciate the time and effort that you put in as a moderator.   I know it is endless, thankless job, and one that you are not compensated for.

Please keep up the good work!     




.


----------



## Ken555

sjsharkie said:


> That being said, I stand by my comment that WKV is much nicer than Canyon Villas (that pool is a zoo and over capacity when I stayed during the summer) and that it should command a premium over it -- how much is the question.



I've stayed at both resorts as well, and I completely agree. 

Of course, if VSN becomes less usable and we are forced by circumstance to use DP to trade to Maui or elsewhere, then I would obviously want to be able to trade WKV for WKORV at the same rate I am now no matter what point system is used. That's the baseline comparison I care about...will my 148,100 StarOptions get me the same number of nights (as I posted previously) in the future program as I can get now? If not, then the program has become devalued.


----------



## sjsharkie

Ken555 said:


> I've stayed at both resorts as well, and I completely agree.
> 
> Of course, if VSN becomes less usable and we are forced by circumstance to use DP to trade to Maui or elsewhere, then I would obviously want to be able to trade WKV for WKORV at the same rate I am now no matter what point system is used. That's the baseline comparison I care about...will my 148,100 StarOptions get me the same number of nights (as I posted previously) in the future program as I can get now? If not, then the program has become devalued.


Count me in your camp.   Decrease of SOs for non-Hawaii properties (unlikely) or inflation of Hawaii property SO values (possible) would absolutely devalue the program for me.


----------



## CPNY

sjsharkie said:


> Count me in your camp.   Decrease of SOs for non-Hawaii properties (unlikely) or inflation of Hawaii property SO values would absolutely devalue the program for me.



It wouldn’t shock me if Marriott devalued many resorts.


----------



## SueDonJ

TheTimeTraveler said:


> Yes, you did spend a lot of time and effort in responding to a fake post and I for one am sorry that you had to do that.
> 
> Most of us (if not all of us) really appreciate the time and effort that you put in as a moderator.   I know it is endless, thankless job, and one that you are not compensated for.
> 
> Please keep up the good work!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Thank you.


----------



## JIMinNC

Ken555 said:


> I've stayed at both resorts as well, and I completely agree.
> 
> Of course, if VSN becomes less usable and we are forced by circumstance to use DP to trade to Maui or elsewhere, then I would obviously want to be able to trade WKV for WKORV at the same rate I am now no matter what point system is used. That's the baseline comparison I care about...will my 148,100 StarOptions get me the same number of nights (as I posted previously) in the future program as I can get now? If not, then the program has become devalued.



In my opinion, this is the key challenge Marriott Vacations Worldwide will face in designing a cross-brand exchange system, and may be the single biggest impediment to ever completely abandoning VSN. When the DC was first developed, MVC owners had no pre-existing point system, so the only yardstick they could use to compare was the relative "black box" of the II exchange system. In II, a week exchanged for a week, and it was possible to exchange a lower demand location like Canyon Villas for a high demand place like Maui, but the whole value exchange process was closeted in secrecy and everyone knew exchanging was something of a crapshoot. So, the owner that swapped a shoulder season Canyon Villas for a week on Maui saw what they got as a great deal, but it wasn't "expected".

Contrast that to the situation now faced where they are absorbing another mature points system that set their point values very differently than MVC did for the DC. In VSN, Kierland Villas is equal to Maui, so those owners have a quantifiable measure of value that they have come to expect. They *know* and *expect* to have enough points from their WKV to book Maui. So the flatter, more consistent points system used by VSN is going to be hard for MVC to sort out, and may make it impossible to eliminate VSN without angering a huge segment of their owners. I personally don't think they are that dumb.

There is precedent in the DC for valuing one resort in an area differently from others in the same place. Look at these resorts in Orlando for same size and season:

Marriott Royal Palms 2BR Feb 22-Apr 11:  2450
Marriott Sabal Palms 2BR Feb 22-Apr 11: 2450
Marriott Harbour Lake 2BR Feb 22-Apr 11: 2900
Marriott Cypress Harbour 2BR Feb 22-Apr 11:  2900
Marriott Grande Vista 2BR Feb 22-Apr 11:  4225
Marriott Lakeshore Reserve 2BR Feb 22-Apr 11: 4500

So, they probably would value WKV more than Canyon Villas in the DC, but it probably won't be enough to book comparable space in Hawaii. If they valued WKV high enough to book Hawaii in the DC, that would be hard to rationalize with the other DC point values.

That situation is the best life insurance policy VSN probably has. As long as VSN owners can still get the same value as always in VSN, it doesn't matter as much if the exchange ratios into the DC are different for the MVC locations.


----------



## Ken555

JIMinNC said:


> In my opinion, this is the key challenge Marriott Vacations Worldwide will face in designing a cross-brand exchange system, and may be the single biggest impediment to ever completely abandoning VSN.



Agreed.



> I personally don't think they are that dumb.



Agreed.



> So, they probably would value WKV more than Canyon Villas in the DC, but it probably won't be enough to book comparable space in Hawaii. If they valued WKV high enough to book Hawaii in the DC, that would be hard to rationalize with the other DC point values.



Therein lies the problem.



> That situation is the best life insurance policy VSN probably has. As long as VSN owners can still get the same value as always in VSN, it doesn't matter as much if the exchange ratios into the DC are different for the MVC locations.



Yes. This also diminishes the value of enrolling my week into the DP program. On the other hand, I am very interested to discover what they offer for my SDO weeks, which I exclusively use now to trade in II (and SFX, but they haven't done as well).


----------



## sjsharkie

CPNY said:


> It wouldn’t shock me if Marriott devalued many resorts.


Devaluing through point inflation wouldn't shock me.  Devaluing through decrease in points would.

Ryan

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## CPNY

sjsharkie said:


> Devaluing through point inflation wouldn't shock me.  Devaluing through decrease in points would.
> 
> Ryan
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk



Do you mean changing the SVN point calendar value and increasing the amount of options to book resorts in Maui, thereby devaluing others or the way they may convert in the DC program, if as many are speculating the VSN resorts are rolled in? I Hope they would leave the star options chart alone.


----------



## SteelerGal

sjsharkie said:


> I can see that Canyon Villas on Redweek rents for about $2400-$2700ish during those same weeks.  So maybe a 25% to 50% is not far off per Dioxide's post.
> 
> -ryan


W/ it being Spring Training, it completely makes sense.  Even SDO rents for much higher.  Arz has soo many sporting and auto events, occupancy remains high.


----------



## JIMinNC

I have a couple questions for those folks who did the deep-dive into the Destination Club CCRs when it was announced almost 10 years ago...

1) I understand that the docs say something about the total number of points required to book can't change and that an increase in points required to book in one part of the point chart has to be offset by a decrease elsewhere. Can those adjustments be made *between* resorts or just *within* a given resort?
2) Since the points assigned to enrolled weeks are somewhat tied to the points required to book those weeks (the booking cost less the "Skim"), what freedom does Marriott Vacation Club have to change the points assigned to enrolled weeks? In other worlds, can they decide to change the election value of a Maui Ocean Club 2BR OV from 5825 points to 5200 or 6500? It would seem a change like that would trigger the need to adjust booking costs as well, which would then run into the restriction that increases in one part of the chart need to be offset elsewhere.

I ask this because the discussion a page or two earlier in this thread about the low point values assigned to Caribbean resorts, made me wonder to what extent MVC could use any re-do of the DC system (to incorporate participation by the Vistana/Hyatt networks) to also adjust or rectify any point value imbalances that may have been uncovered in the first decade of the DC?


----------



## Fasttr

JIMinNC said:


> I have a couple questions for those folks who did the deep-dive into the Destination Club CCRs when it was announced almost 10 years ago...
> 
> 1) I understand that the docs say something about the total number of points required to book can't change and that an increase in points required to book in one part of the point chart has to be offset by a decrease elsewhere. Can those adjustments be made *between* resorts or just *within* a given resort?
> 2) Since the points assigned to enrolled weeks are somewhat tied to the points required to book those weeks (the booking cost less the "Skim"), what freedom does Marriott Vacation Club have to change the points assigned to enrolled weeks? In other worlds, can they decide to change the election value of a Maui Ocean Club 2BR OV from 5825 points to 5200 or 6500? It would seem a change like that would trigger the need to adjust booking costs as well, which would then run into the restriction that increases in one part of the chart need to be offset elsewhere.
> 
> I ask this because the discussion a page or two earlier in this thread about the low point values assigned to Caribbean resorts, made me wonder to what extent MVC could use any re-do of the DC system (to incorporate participation by the Vistana/Hyatt networks) to also adjust or rectify any point value imbalances that may have been uncovered in the first decade of the DC?



The second paragraph of this excerpt from the Exchange Docs seems to apply to your second question.

_Exchange Members. Each calendar year, an Exchange Member may Deposit Use Periods associated with the Exchange Member’s Interest with the Exchange Company during the applicable Deposit Window. Exchange Members are required to Deposit Use Periods in 7-consecutive evening increments (in 3 526828-17 (eff. 10.31.17) accordance with the governing documents associated with the Exchange Member’s Component). Lock-off portions of an Accommodation are not eligible to be deposited. Deposits may only be made during the Deposit Window for the Use Period that the Exchange Member desires to Deposit. With respect to an Exchange Member who owns an alternate year Interest, unless the Exchange Member banks or borrows Exchange Points as may be permitted by these Exchange Procedures, such Exchange Member will be entitled to Deposit Use Periods associated with his or her Interest for usage of Exchange Points only during the calendar year in which such Exchange Member’s use rights occur, and will be required to use their Exchange Points during the same calendar year; provided, however, such Exchange Member will be assessed Exchange Company Dues on an annual basis (as applicable).

For administrative convenience in the operation of the Program and for determination of the respective rights of Exchange Members to enjoy the benefits of the Program, the Exchange Company will assign a Distribution of Exchange Points to each Exchange Member for Use Periods Deposited by the Exchange Member for exchange each Use Year. The number of Exchange Points in a Distribution for a particular Use Period is based on various factors such as relative daily and seasonal demand, Accommodation capacity, size, view, and furnishings, and other valuation parameters established by the Exchange Company and may vary periodically by such factors. The number of Exchange Points in a Distribution is not in any way intended to be reflective of the economic value of any Interest and may vary from year to year based on the forgoing factors._


----------



## kds4

JIMinNC said:


> I have a couple questions for those folks who did the deep-dive into the Destination Club CCRs when it was announced almost 10 years ago...
> 
> 1) I understand that the docs say something about the total number of points required to book can't change and that an increase in points required to book in one part of the point chart has to be offset by a decrease elsewhere. Can those adjustments be made *between* resorts or just *within* a given resort?
> 2) Since the points assigned to enrolled weeks are somewhat tied to the points required to book those weeks (the booking cost less the "Skim"), what freedom does Marriott Vacation Club have to change the points assigned to enrolled weeks? In other worlds, can they decide to change the election value of a Maui Ocean Club 2BR OV from 5825 points to 5200 or 6500? It would seem a change like that would trigger the need to adjust booking costs as well, which would then run into the restriction that increases in one part of the chart need to be offset elsewhere.
> 
> I ask this because the discussion a page or two earlier in this thread about the low point values assigned to Caribbean resorts, made me wonder to what extent MVC could use any re-do of the DC system (to incorporate participation by the Vistana/Hyatt networks) to also adjust or rectify any point value imbalances that may have been uncovered in the first decade of the DC?



Great question. I think we've been seeing this already based on how they have been adjusting point requirements for holiday weeks (with a supposed adjustment elsewhere on that resort's point calendar).


----------



## Fasttr

JIMinNC said:


> I have a couple questions for those folks who did the deep-dive into the Destination Club CCRs when it was announced almost 10 years ago...
> 
> 1) I understand that the docs say something about the total number of points required to book can't change and that an increase in points required to book in one part of the point chart has to be offset by a decrease elsewhere. Can those adjustments be made *between* resorts or just *within* a given resort?
> 2) Since the points assigned to enrolled weeks are somewhat tied to the points required to book those weeks (the booking cost less the "Skim"), what freedom does Marriott Vacation Club have to change the points assigned to enrolled weeks? In other worlds, can they decide to change the election value of a Maui Ocean Club 2BR OV from 5825 points to 5200 or 6500? It would seem a change like that would trigger the need to adjust booking costs as well, which would then run into the restriction that increases in one part of the chart need to be offset elsewhere.
> 
> I ask this because the discussion a page or two earlier in this thread about the low point values assigned to Caribbean resorts, made me wonder to what extent MVC could use any re-do of the DC system (to incorporate participation by the Vistana/Hyatt networks) to also adjust or rectify any point value imbalances that may have been uncovered in the first decade of the DC?



From the DC Trust POS, the following excerpts seems to apply to your first question.

_Demand Balancing. In establishing the Reservation Procedures, the Developer and Board have taken into account the location and anticipated relative use demand for each Accommodation and Component and each has used its best efforts, in good faith and based upon all reasonably available evidence under the circumstances, to further the best interests of the Beneficiaries as a whole with respect to their opportunity to use and enjoy the Trust Property. The Association Delegee will periodically make such adjustments or amendments to the Trust Reservation System and the Reservation Procedures in order to respond to actual Beneficiary use patterns and changes in Beneficiary demand for the Accommodations existing within the Trust, as well as other pertinent information. The Association Delegee will also take into consideration the demand for and the availability of existing Accommodations prior to making any additions, deletions, or substitutions of Accommodations.

And also....

Subject to the limited calendar adjustments described in this paragraph, any increase or decrease in the number of Points for Use required to reserve a designated Use Period pursuant to Association Delegee’s right to amend the Point Schedule as set forth above must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase to the Points for Use for other Use Period(s) occurring during the same year as the designated Use Period. Points for Use for a given calendar year will fluctuate from year to year as a result of the number of weekends that occur during that year, leap years, the occurrence of “Week 53” as defined in the Component Declarations, and which day of the week a holiday occurs. As a result of these fluctuating factors and differing demand which occurs because of the calendar permutations, the number of Points for Use may fluctuate for a given Use Period; provided, however, that the Points for Use for a Use Period in a specific calendar year that has the same factors as another specific calendar year, may only be increased or decreased pursuant to the preceding paragraph. Any modification to the Point Schedule shall not require approval by the Beneficiaries.
_
Where Use Period is defined as follows:

_Use Period means the time period(s) of a day or consecutive days during which each Beneficiary is afforded the opportunity to reserve and use an accommodation in accordance with the Trust Agreement, the Reservation Procedures, and the other Trust Plan Documents. _


----------



## JIMinNC

Fasttr said:


> From the DC Trust POS, the following excerpt seems to apply to your first question.
> 
> _Subject to the limited calendar adjustments described in this paragraph, any increase or decrease in the number of Points for Use required to reserve a designated Use Period pursuant to Association Delegee’s right to amend the Point Schedule as set forth above must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase to the Points for Use for other Use Period(s) occurring during the same year as the designated Use Period. Points for Use for a given calendar year will fluctuate from year to year as a result of the number of weekends that occur during that year, leap years, the occurrence of “Week 53” as defined in the Component Declarations, and which day of the week a holiday occurs. As a result of these fluctuating factors and differing demand which occurs because of the calendar permutations, the number of Points for Use may fluctuate for a given Use Period; provided, however, that the Points for Use for a Use Period in a specific calendar year that has the same factors as another specific calendar year, may only be increased or decreased pursuant to the preceding paragraph. Any modification to the Point Schedule shall not require approval by the Beneficiaries.
> _
> Where Use Period is defined as follows:
> 
> _Use Period means the time period(s) of a day or consecutive days during which each Beneficiary is afforded the opportunity to reserve and use an Accommodation in accordance with the Trust Agreement, the Reservation Procedures, and the other Trust Plan Documents._



I'm not sure I read where that clearly defines whether the Use Periods impacted by the increase/decrease and the offsetting increase/decrease have to be at the same resort or not.

I thought maybe by looking at the definition of "Accommodation" that might help answer and then the definition of "Component" inside that definition. Here is an abridged version:

_Accommodation means an accommodation, condominium unit, apartment...and that portion of the Component(s) or other similar real property interests that is subject to exclusive ownership or use by one or more persons.

Component means those Accommodations located in a specific geographic location under common management, which constitute in whole or in part, any portion of the Trust Property, and related amenities and recreation facilities. The Association Delegee retains the right to determine what constitutes a Component in the Association Delegee's sole discretion from time to time.
_
After reading all of that, I'm still not sure I understand...


----------



## Fasttr

JIMinNC said:


> I'm not sure I read where that clearly defines whether the Use Periods impacted by the increase/decrease and the offsetting increase/decrease have to be at the same resort or not.
> 
> I thought maybe by looking at the definition of "Accommodation" that might help answer and then the definition of "Component" inside that definition. Here is an abridged version:
> 
> _Accommodation means an accommodation, condominium unit, apartment...and that portion of the Component(s) or other similar real property interests that is subject to exclusive ownership or use by one or more persons.
> 
> Component means those Accommodations located in a specific geographic location under common management, which constitute in whole or in part, any portion of the Trust Property, and related amenities and recreation facilities. The Association Delegee retains the right to determine what constitutes a Component in the Association Delegee's sole discretion from time to time.
> _
> After reading all of that, I'm still not sure I understand...


I could not draw a conclusion either.  I would imagine it’s intentionally vague.


----------



## CPNY

Fasttr said:


> I could not draw a conclusion either.  I would imagine it’s intentionally vague.



Sounds like they can increase or decrease based on factors of what days of the week a holiday may fall on, how many weekends are in a calendar year etc. when there is an increase or decrease in a certain use period then there must be a decrease or increase in other use periods within the same calendar year, to match up? And the increase or decrease may only fluctuate to match increases and decreases in years that have had similar circumstances? Wow, that is confusing as heck. 
I would assume it’s a blanket across the board fluctuating point value for all resorts?

Is this why one of the line items on the eBay listing for DP resale had a line item of $300 education fee for new owners? The real estate company was charging to give education on how this system works? Kinda didn’t understand that.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> Is this why one of the line items on the eBay listing for DP resale had a line item of $300 education fee for new owners? The real estate company was charging to give education on how this system works? Kinda didn’t understand that.



The Education Fee is a fee Marriott charges on Trust point purchases for all new Destination Club members. It is not a fee you pay if you already own Trust points.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> The Education Fee is a fee Marriott charges on Trust point purchases for all new Destination Club members. It is not a fee you pay if you already own Trust points.


Makes sense, it said existing owners didn’t have to pay the fee.


----------



## dioxide45

TheTimeTraveler said:


> .I think the rental price of points has not been driven too far up because I believe "a flood" of points are on the market (in my opinion).



The main group probably keeping rental prices down are the mega renters that own Grand Residence and Perhaps also Ritz that enrolled their weeks. Their MF per point is quite low and they can flood the market with tens of thousands of points.



vacationtime1 said:


> A two bedroom WKV rents for ~$3,700 during prime season (March).  So if they don't offer approx 6000 DC points (6000 DC points @ $0.60 = $3,600) , owners will find it more profitable to rent their weeks rather than to elect points and MVC will have no inventory.
> 
> Also, a DC cost of less than about 6000 DC points to reserve the unit would permit one to rent the unit for far less than its rental value by renting DC points @ ~ $0.60 (if the price were 4000 DC points, one could rent enough points for $2,400).


I don't think Marriott will, in any way, be concerned about the rental value that an owner can get for their week. Perhaps if it will undercut their rental market, they may make some adjustments.



kds4 said:


> Great question. I think we've been seeing this already based on how they have been adjusting point requirements for holiday weeks (with a supposed adjustment elsewhere on that resort's point calendar).


Based on the last nine years, there are only a small handful of situations where Marriott has changed point values. None have ever been made that span across resorts, most within the same week when it came to holidays. There was a situation a while back at Ko'Olina where they increased the price of the individual 1BR and studio units but didn't change the point cost of the whole 2BR unit. Since there are no separately deeded 1BR and studio units at Ko'Olina, the didn't really run afoul of anything. Vistana can't really do that in VSN because they often sold off individual parts of the 2BR lock off units and now that they have conveyed these weeks to their Flex trusts, they have effectively locked in the point values of those weeks.


----------



## Ken555

JIMinNC said:


> The Education Fee is a fee Marriott charges on Trust point purchases for all new Destination Club members. It is not a fee you pay if you already own Trust points.



Wait, what? When you buy Trust you must pay a fee...for them to teach you about the program? I must be missing something, since that sounds absurd.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> In my opinion, this is the key challenge Marriott Vacations Worldwide will face in designing a cross-brand exchange system, and may be the single biggest impediment to ever completely abandoning VSN. When the DC was first developed, MVC owners had no pre-existing point system, so the only yardstick they could use to compare was the relative "black box" of the II exchange system. In II, a week exchanged for a week, and it was possible to exchange a lower demand location like Canyon Villas for a high demand place like Maui, but the whole value exchange process was closeted in secrecy and everyone knew exchanging was something of a crapshoot. So, the owner that swapped a shoulder season Canyon Villas for a week on Maui saw what they got as a great deal, but it wasn't "expected".


I think this may be why we end up seeing Marriott creating an overlay only for their pure trust point owners; Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex, Westin Aventuras and Marriott Trust Points (to be renamed Marriott Flex). These owners really have non pre-conceived value of the worth of a week. Marriott then sets up some kind of conversion ratio of DC points and HomeOptions. You can continue to book inside your own trust starting at 13/12 months depending on ownership level and trust and if you want to book across the systems you can do so at some other month mark (or perhaps still at 13/12 months). Perhaps you don't even have to elect your points, you just do a straight booking and you keep whatever leftover points in their original form. So say it is 20:1 and you own 6,000 DC points, you can perhaps use 2,200 to get to get 44,000 Options to book a 1BR in low season in Cancun for a week and have 3,800 DC points left for a Marriott booking or perhaps a later conversion to Options. Or you are a Vistana owner and want to book a peak 1BR in Boston, you use 63,000 Options and whatever you have left can be used for a Vistana reservation or future conversion to DC points. There may be bargains or bad conversions and 20:1 may not be the best ratio, but you get the idea.

The more I think about this and the problems they will have with what they sold certain Vistana weeks for and what they are really worth as compared to similar Marriott resorts in the same area, the more I think they will go with a conversion only for pure trust point owners. If us weeks owners want in, we have to buy in or perhaps trade in our weeks using "equity value" and buy in to one of the trusts. Marriott doesn't really owe any of us anything. Again though, it is all speculation and guessing or perhaps I just created their new program for them


----------



## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> Wait, what? When you buy Trust you must pay a fee...for them to teach you about the program? I must be missing something, since that sounds absurd.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Only if you buy the Trust points resale and only if you don't already own trust points. It is a junk fee and pure money grab.


----------



## SMB1

Ken555 said:


> Wait, what? When you buy Trust you must pay a fee...for them to teach you about the program? I must be missing something, since that sounds absurd.
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



This is one of the junk fees that have been discussed in many posts here.  I believe it is a one time $300 fee for first time owners of destination points when bought resale.


----------



## csalter2

I have read the many posts on this thread. Very interesting. I must say that the anxiety that Vistana and others who are now in the system are so much similar to what I heard when Diamond Resorts bought systems like Intrawest. Those owners were very testy and unhappy with Diamond Resorts acquiring them. They tried to sue and everything else. Diamond rebranded them as Embarq. Diamond has various collections of resorts that the points owners belong to. Each owner has a home collections. Some of the collections are named the US Collectin, Hawaii Collection, California Collection, etc.  Some of the Intrawest resorts were placed in the US Collection. One resort, Cabo Azul was made its own collection. Owners in their home collection have a 13 month advantage to make reservations. If you want to book a reservation outside of your collection, you have to wait 10 months.  

When Diamond acquires these systems, they give owners in these acquisitions a choice to keep what they currently have or convert to Diamond. Diamond does not care if you’re a owner of weeks or points in your system. They sell Diamond points. Some people keep their deeds and still buy Diamond points because they want access to all of the Diamond locations worldwide. Some just keep their deed or points that their system had. Sometimes it’s beneficial to keep the points you had in your system because Diamond takes the inventory that was unsold and gives it their own Diamond Resorts points value. If you buy into Diamond and leave your points system, it’s possible you can lose some power. For example, you may have been able to get a two bedroom unit during Christmas with your old ownership. However, when you look at the Diamond conversion, if you look at almost all weeks you will see that you can still get a 2 bedroom, but if you are not savvy to look at the entire calendar and points requirements, you may miss that the points conversion for Diamond does not give you enough points for July 4th, Christmas or New Years that you once could do with your original points contract.  So you have to be careful what you’re giving up to join.  

Veryone pays the same fees to enter Damond and maintenance fees are the same for all. There are no reservation fees because part of your fees are annual reservation and club fees.  All Diamond Club members have access to all of the inventory at 10 months our on a first come first serve basis.  All new acquisitions buy into the Club. If you are a Diamond owner in the Club, then you do NOT pay extra to have access to the new inventory of the recent acquisitions. However, they pay to become part of the Club if they desire. The other piece that is important is that for the newer acquisitions, particularly the nicer and high demand resorts,  Diamond does require significantly more points for them compared to others.

Now I know you may ask why does he bring this up?  Well, many of the Diamond executives are now at Marriott! When Marriott rolled out their point system in 2010. There were not a lot of differences that I saw between the two.  Because of that, there was really very little transition for me having been in the Diamond system for so many years.  

I foresee much of this happening with Marriott.  I believe that Vistana owners will have a choice. Their choice to have access to more locations or to just continue to do what they have always done with some variance or lost of some benefits that are at the discretion of Marriott.  Diamond either limited, deleted or altered some of the perks owners had because it was written into the contract that they could at any time. Just like with Marriott owners in which Marriott can stop the Destinations Program benefit levels at any time or stop bongos points or stop renting points.  These are all possibilities I have seen exercised. People sue, get angry and everything else, but as long as the contract is being honored, there is not a lot to say. 

Remember, this people on this site are a small minority. The public at large is not as aware as most of us on TUG.


----------



## bazzap

JIMinNC said:


> In the end, it's all speculation until something formal is announced. The only thing that has been said officially that we can bank on is what the Marriott Vacations Worldwide CEO, Stephen Weisz, said in their last earnings conference call for investors:
> 
> "Looking ahead to 2020, we have begun focusing on product enhancements for the various brands. Specifically, we are working hard to develop an integrated product form that can be leveraged across the Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton brands enhancing the overall value proposition for our owners and customers. It will take time to finalize and roll out this new product form. However, we are very excited about the potential it will provide and we look forward to updating you in the future as this work evolves.”
> 
> I don't think they have announced the exact date of their second quarter earnings call, but it should be late July or early August. Maybe more info then; maybe not.


Marriott Vacations Worldwide 2Q19 Earnings Call 
Aug 1, 2019 at 8:30 AM EDT


----------



## bazzap

JIMinNC said:


> I have a couple questions for those folks who did the deep-dive into the Destination Club CCRs when it was announced almost 10 years ago...
> 
> 1) I understand that the docs say something about the total number of points required to book can't change and that an increase in points required to book in one part of the point chart has to be offset by a decrease elsewhere. Can those adjustments be made *between* resorts or just *within* a given resort?
> 2) Since the points assigned to enrolled weeks are somewhat tied to the points required to book those weeks (the booking cost less the "Skim"), what freedom does Marriott Vacation Club have to change the points assigned to enrolled weeks? In other worlds, can they decide to change the election value of a Maui Ocean Club 2BR OV from 5825 points to 5200 or 6500? It would seem a change like that would trigger the need to adjust booking costs as well, which would then run into the restriction that increases in one part of the chart need to be offset elsewhere.
> 
> I ask this because the discussion a page or two earlier in this thread about the low point values assigned to Caribbean resorts, made me wonder to what extent MVC could use any re-do of the DC system (to incorporate participation by the Vistana/Hyatt networks) to also adjust or rectify any point value imbalances that may have been uncovered in the first decade of the DC?


Revaluation of the points for the Caribbean resorts would be my dream scenario.
I fear it will remain a dream though


----------



## ocdb8r

dioxide45 said:


> The more I think about this and the problems they will have with what they sold certain Vistana weeks for and what they are really worth as compared to similar Marriott resorts in the same area, the more I think they will go with a conversion only for pure trust point owners. If us weeks owners want in, we have to buy in or perhaps trade in our weeks using "equity value" and buy in to one of the trusts. Marriott doesn't really owe any of us anything. Again though, it is all speculation and guessing or perhaps I just created their new program for them



This poses several bigger problems to MVC though:

1) the current SVN trusts don't have enough inventory to make this very attractive to current DC owners (would make SVN resorts very hard to access and certain resorts like Harborside, unaccessable completely);

2) this would theoretically make DC point "add-ons" only attractive to current SVN owners in one of the flexOption programs (which is a relatively small slice of the SVN customer base) as weeks owners have nothing to add on to; and

3) most important - this doesn't relieve them of the problem of the SVN point chart. The various flexOption trusts are based on the same point chart as the rest of SVN.  That means if they go with an overall fixed ratio to exchange from flexOptions to DC points, the ratio back in will have to be similar (perhaps with some skim).  The result is somehow Marriott is going to have to get (nearly) the same number of DC points for WKORV as they do for Westin Mission Hills or Dessert Willow (in high season).  That doesn't nearly comport with the relative DC point values of similar MVC resorts in Maui and AZ/CA desert.

...just thinking a bit more as I write, what they could do is:

1) Use a different fixed exchange rate for each of the various flexOptions programs - say for Westin Flex you get 0.04 DC points for every Westin flexOption; for Sheraton Flex you get 0.03 DC points for every flexOption and for Westin Aventuras you get (who knows....perhaps 0.04, I have no idea how MVC will value Mexico).  This doesn't solve the inherent mismatch between Maui and AZ/CA desert in the Westin flex...but that is the worst of the issues and perhaps with some sort of skim MVC can manage it.  I think the mismatches between resort demand in the other trusts is much smaller.

2) for SVN weeks owners, they offer an option to enroll in the DC with your week being set at a fixed DC point value (completely unrelated to the SVN StarOptions value and based closer to similar MVC resort values), basically the same as what they did with MVC weeks owners when they launched the program.  Yes, weeks owners will see a mismatch between the value ascribed compared to (1) above, but I think MVC could explain it away.  Likely more in demand weeks/resorts (Maui. ski weeks...etc) will end up with a value higher than the fixed rate above and less in demand weeks/resorts (Orlando, mud weeks...etc) will end up with a value lower than the fixed rate above.  For non-trust resorts, they don't have a true way to compare...and most of these are likely to be in demand resorts which would get a decent DC point value offered.

I think the most marginalized in the above approach would be Platinum desert week owners (both CA and AZ) who would likely not receive nearly the same rate of DC points as Platinum Maui week owners (where in SVN they are on par).  However, this may be as good as can get and I suspect it marginalizes the smallest group of SVN owners.  MVC had to contend with some of the same concerns when they launched the DC program as many low value week owners were regularly getting high value trades in II.  While there was a lot of smoke the first year or so, over time things have settled down and most MVC owners have come to find value in the DC program.

Taken together, this approach also helps minimize the inherent mismatch in the SVN trusts.  If they get enough weeks owners on board, the trusts stay a relatively small portion of the overall DC-SVN interaction and (2) above pulls the whole system closer to being on par with relative MVC resort DC point values.



dioxide45 said:


> This is where they have a problem with Vistana. Places like Westin Kierland Villas had a very high sales price as compared to Marriott resorts in the area. I think WKV Plat+ sold for close to $60K. The same is true for Lagunamar. That is much higher than Marriott sold Canyon Villas for. Vistana could command those higher prices because of how they setup their StarOption chart. A WKV Plat+ week could easily book in to a Hawaii week. So they were selling Hawaii in Scottsdale. Can they really give WKV week owners 5,000-6,000 DC points for their weeks when they would perhaps only charge 4,000 for the highest season week there? Not really because it would create a huge imbalance. People would convert to DC points and use those to book back in to WKV and have plenty of points leftover. Or they would book longer stays at WKV and people would effectively be locked out of booking back in because demand would be much higher than supply.
> 
> It will be intersting to see how they allocate these points and the vallues they assign to them along with how much they charge to book weeks at some of these properties.



I think the past is in the past and actual sales prices for weeks played very little into how DC point values were set at launch....and again, at worst this marginalizes the Platinum desert weeks owners which is a relatively small group when looking at SVN as a whole.  No solution is going to make everyone happy, and I suspect this is the group that will lose out.  As the systems mingle I don't think it's reasonable for WKV Platinum week owners to expect things will always stay on par and that their weeks will always be as valuable as a Maui week.  I suspect they will continue to have SVN exchanges as an option to try to get those Maui weeks (but even there, this will become increasingly difficult over time if Maui week owners actually use DC points in any given year - thus taking the week out of the SVN pool that year).

ONE silver lining in all of this that I hope is in MVC's mind and may provide a tiny buffer.  The one clear advantage SVN desert weeks (and most SVN mainland resort weeks) has over similarly situated MVC properties is that our properties lock-off into two 1-bedrooms.  This should justify a bit of a premium in DC point value over MVC resorts and narrow the mismatch a bit.


----------



## bazzap

ocdb8r said:


> This poses several bigger problems to MVC though:
> 
> 1) the current SVN trusts don't have enough inventory to make this very attractive to current DC owners (would make SVN resorts very hard to access and certain resorts like Harborside, unaccessable completely);
> 
> 2) this would theoretically make DC point "add-ons" only attractive to current SVN owners in one of the flexOption programs (which is a relatively small slice of the SVN customer base) as weeks owners have nothing to add on to; and
> 
> 3) most important - this doesn't relieve them of the problem of the SVN point chart. The various flexOption trusts are based on the same point chart as the rest of SVN.  That means if they go with an overall fixed ratio to exchange from flexOptions to DC points, the ratio back in will have to be similar (perhaps with some skim).  The result is somehow Marriott is going to have to get (nearly) the same number of DC points for WKORV as they do for Westin Mission Hills or Dessert Willow (in high season).  That doesn't nearly comport with the relative DC point values of similar MVC resorts in Maui and AZ/CA desert.
> 
> ...just thinking a bit more as I write, what they could do is:
> 
> 1) Use a different fixed exchange rate for each of the various flexOptions programs - say for Westin Flex you get 0.04 DC points for every Westin flexOption; for Sheraton Flex you get 0.03 DC points for every flexOption and for Westin Aventuras you get (who knows....perhaps 0.04, I have no idea how MVC will value Mexico).  This doesn't solve the inherent mismatch between Maui and AZ/CA desert in the Westin flex...but that is the worst of the issues and perhaps with some sort of skim MVC can manage it.  I think the mismatches between resort demand in the other trusts is much smaller.
> 
> 2) for SVN weeks owners, they offer an option to enroll in the DC with your week being set at a fixed DC point value (completely unrelated to the SVN StarOptions value and based closer to similar MVC resort values), basically the same as what they did with MVC weeks owners when they launched the program.  Yes, weeks owners will see a mismatch between the value ascribed compared to (1) above, but I think MVC could explain it away.  Likely more in demand weeks/resorts (Maui. ski weeks...etc) will end up with a value higher than the fixed rate above and less in demand weeks/resorts (Orlando, mud weeks...etc) will end up with a value lower than the fixed rate above.  For non-trust resorts, they don't have a true way to compare...and most of these are likely to be in demand resorts which would get a decent DC point value offered.
> 
> I think the most marginalized in the above approach would be Platinum desert week owners (both CA and AZ) who would likely not receive nearly the same rate of DC points as Platinum Maui week owners (where in SVN they are on par).  However, this may be as good as can get and I suspect it marginalizes the smallest group of SVN owners.  MVC had to contend with some of the same concerns when they launched the DC program as many low value week owners were regularly getting high value trades in II.  While there was a lot of smoke the first year or so, over time things have settled down and most MVC owners have come to find value in the DC program.
> 
> Taken together, this approach also helps minimize the inherent mismatch in the SVN trusts.  If they get enough weeks owners on board, the trusts stay a relatively small portion of the overall DC-SVN interaction and (2) above pulls the whole system closer to being on par with relative MVC resort DC point values.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the past is in the past and actual sales prices for weeks played very little into how DC point values were set at launch....and again, at worst this marginalizes the Platinum desert weeks owners which is a relatively small group when looking at SVN as a whole.  No solution is going to make everyone happy, and I suspect this is the group that will lose out.  As the systems mingle I don't think it's reasonable for WKV Platinum week owners to expect things will always stay on par and that their weeks will always be as valuable as a Maui week.  I suspect they will continue to have SVN exchanges as an option to try to get those Maui weeks (but even there, this will become increasingly difficult over time if Maui week owners actually use DC points in any given year - thus taking the week out of the SVN pool that year).
> 
> ONE silver lining in all of this that I hope is in MVC's mind and may provide a tiny buffer.  The one clear advantage SVN desert weeks (and most SVN mainland resort weeks) has over similarly situated MVC properties is that our properties lock-off into two 1-bedrooms.  This should justify a bit of a premium in DC point value over MVC resorts and narrow the mismatch a bit.


I am not totally certain, as it was a long time ago now, but I don’t recall that when enrolling our MVC Lock off weeks we received any premium over non Lock off weeks?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

They will have to grandfather the mandatory resale feature if they want to attract owners of WKORV, WKORVN, Harborside, St John etc to enroll. If not, this will be a deal breaker for many owners like me, making SVN quite relevant for a very long time (i.e. keeping significant Maui inventory in SVN SO pool vs. the points trust).


----------



## ocdb8r

bazzap said:


> I am not totally certain, as it was a long time ago now, but I don’t recall that when enrolling our MVC Lock off weeks we received any premium over non Lock off weeks?



It's not the lock-off feature itself I think commands more points, its the fact a 2 bedroom is comprised of 2 units that each equate to a 1 bedroom....think of it this way, certainly the small 1 bedroom side of an SVN lock-off should be worth more than a studio.  Therefore the total for the full sized one bedroom and the small sized one bedroom (SVN mainland resorts) should command a premium over the total of a full sized one-bedroom plus a studio (MVC resorts).

One (not quite the same) example in DC is Marriott Grand Residence Club, Lake Tahoe - the larger 2 bedrooms (that sleep 6-8) command about a 10% point premium over the smaller 2 bedrooms (that sleep 4-6).  



CalGalTraveler said:


> They will have to grandfather the mandatory resale feature if they want to attract owners of WKORV, WKORVN, Harborside, St John etc to enroll. If not, this will be a deal breaker for many owners like me, making SVN quite relevant for a very long time (i.e. keeping significant Maui inventory in SVN SO pool vs. the points trust).



I'm not sure I follow - why would the mandatory resale feature affect owners choice to enroll in the DC (if the option was provided)?  If the enrollment fee is low, not sure why they would care if it transfers on ownership (to be clear, I have always assumed SVN as is will continue as it is alongside the DC, with the DC just as an additional option...I think too much work to wind SVN up).  While I think SVN will continue to be relevant, if Maui, St John and Harborside owners are offered attractive DC point values for electing their week in any give year, it could start to crunch SVN inventory when those owners choose to use DC Points.


----------



## bazzap

ocdb8r said:


> It's not the lock-off feature itself I think commands more points, its the fact a 2 bedroom is comprised of 2 units that each equate to a 1 bedroom....think of it this way, certainly the small 1 bedroom side of an SVN lock-off should be worth more than a studio.  Therefore the total for the full sized one bedroom and the small sized one bedroom (SVN mainland resorts) should command a premium over the total of a full sized one-bedroom plus a studio (MVC resorts).
> 
> One (not quite the same) example in DC is Marriott Grand Residence Club, Lake Tahoe - the larger 2 bedrooms (that sleep 6-8) command about a 10% point premium over the smaller 2 bedrooms (that sleep 4-6).
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I follow - why would the mandatory resale feature affect owners choice to enroll in the DC (if the option was provided)?  If the enrollment fee is low, not sure why they would care if it transfers on ownership (to be clear, I have always assumed SVN as is will continue as it is alongside the DC, with the DC just as an additional option...I think too much work to wind SVN up).  While I think SVN will continue to be relevant, if Maui, St John and Harborside owners are offered attractive DC point values for electing their week in any give year, it could start to crunch SVN inventory when those owners choose to use DC Points.


I understand that the points required to book the 1 Bed and the Studio separately in a lock off capable unit are more than for booking the Full unit.
I don’t believe though that the points allocated when enrolling that lock off capable unit were any higher than for the equivalent non lock off capable unit.


----------



## Dean

dioxide45 said:


> THere certainly are not a lot of protections. Vistana can change VSN or eliminate it at will. I think the challenge is the mandatory properties. If they simply say DC is the new VSN, you now have five resorts where resale weeks have an in to the DC program. We know Marriott has a huge hatred of resales. They lock out all post 6/20/2010 resale weeks from enrolling unless they pay uber cash to bring it in to the system with a new points purchase. They also charge huge initiation fees to resale DC points. So I can't see them just making DC the new VSN.
> 
> THey could eliminate VSN and start up DC and require Vistana owners to buy in or enroll to have access to the new system. This of course equals a third of your owner base that is POed. Or they could add an additional layer like many are speculating here. Only time will tell which path they follow.


What are the contractual options to change the mandatory status and situation.  Is the ability to exchange to similar HI locked in contractually and if so, can it be changed without a vote of the membership?  Do those resorts have ROFR?  Which could be a way to limit the access from that direction.  Of course they could spin those off and just not worry about it.  Plus I'm sure there's an out if other resorts are no longer in the same system.  Could they just rebrand those resorts as MVC?



CalGalTraveler said:


> They will have to grandfather the mandatory resale feature if they want to attract owners of WKORV, WKORVN, Harborside, St John etc to enroll. If not, this will be a deal breaker for many owners like me, making SVN quite relevant for a very long time (i.e. keeping significant Maui inventory in SVN SO pool vs. the points trust).


There is more than one way to coerce members to join.  The main ones include giving them more or taking away current options.  Even for contractual options they could offer an ultimatum of sign to change the contract or exit the system entirely.  As we've seen a number of posts assuming that they have to do this with kid gloves and try to keep everyone happy, I'm reminded of the discussions leading up to and immediately following when Marriott spun off a number of resorts years ago.  I can think of several ultimatums from Marriott and in some cases where the owners complied and were still let go.  I can think of issues between Aruba Ocean Club with Marriott and Beachplace Towers v Marriott where expulsion was discussed.  I'm sure Marriott knows that not everyone will be happy and some will be vocal and I'm certain they're OK with that.  It's not that they want to upset people I'm sure but if it stands in the way of having a variable and profitable future venture, I'm sure they will not hesitate to make some difficult decisions once they've weighed all their options.  This "I'll complain", "I'll sue" or the infamous "Class Action Lawsuit" are not going to affect them if they feel they are on solid legal ground.


----------



## Dean

bazzap said:


> I understand that the points required to book the 1 Bed and the Studio separately in a lock off capable unit are more than for booking the Full unit.
> I don’t believe though that the points allocated when enrolling that lock off capable unit were any higher than for the equivalent non lock off capable unit.


I'm pretty sure that the points for the lock off portions are not guaranteed and not protected by the reallocation rules.  Now if there are smaller dedicated units, that may give some vicarious protection.


----------



## SueDonJ

bazzap said:


> I understand that the points required to book the 1 Bed and the Studio separately in a lock off capable unit are more than for booking the Full unit.



Agree, within the DC Points Charts the total required to book a complete lock-off unit is most always less than the total to book the components separately.

While we're on the subject we may as well note here the tidbit, that enrolled Weeks with lockoff access must be elected for DC Points as a single unit. It is not possible for an Owner to reserve a component within the Weeks system and then exchange the remaining component(s) for DC Points.



bazzap said:


> I don’t believe though that the points allocated when enrolling that lock off capable unit were any higher than for the equivalent non lock off capable unit.



Where same-size lockoff and dedicated (non-lockoff) units are co-located within a single Marriott resort, the capability to book separate components of a lock-off unit wasn't a factor in the original Weeks purchase price because access to a lockoff unit is not guaranteed. Regardless of the footprint of the unit number that's specified in any particular deed, the docs specify that placement in any particular unit isn't guaranteed and that access to a desired lockoff-capable or dedicated unit is first-come-first-served by request at the time of reservation (which has always sounded to me like potential for a giant recurring nightmare but if you go by TUG over the years it seems to work with very few complaints, probably because locking-off incurs a transaction fee.) It stands to reason that minus the guaranteed access to a specified lockoff unit, there's no way Marriott could have differentiated DC Point allotments among all Weeks owners who have the ability to book one by request.

**This of course applies to the resorts with floating-unit ownerships - owners at any of the very few fixed-unit resorts can speak to whether there's a mix of same-size dedicated and lockoff-capable units at those resorts, and if so, whether DC allotments are differentiated. I've never seen anything to suggest it but anything's possible.


----------



## kds4

dioxide45 said:


> I think this may be why we end up seeing Marriott creating an overlay only for their pure trust point owners; Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex, Westin Aventuras and Marriott Trust Points (to be renamed Marriott Flex). These owners really have non pre-conceived value of the worth of a week. Marriott then sets up some kind of conversion ratio of DC points and HomeOptions. You can continue to book inside your own trust starting at 13/12 months depending on ownership level and trust and if you want to book across the systems you can do so at some other month mark (or perhaps still at 13/12 months). Perhaps you don't even have to elect your points, you just do a straight booking and you keep whatever leftover points in their original form. So say it is 20:1 and you own 6,000 DC points, you can perhaps use 2,200 to get to get 44,000 Options to book a 1BR in low season in Cancun for a week and have 3,800 DC points left for a Marriott booking or perhaps a later conversion to Options. Or you are a Vistana owner and want to book a peak 1BR in Boston, you use 63,000 Options and whatever you have left can be used for a Vistana reservation or future conversion to DC points. There may be bargains or bad conversions and 20:1 may not be the best ratio, but you get the idea.
> 
> The more I think about this and the problems they will have with what they sold certain Vistana weeks for and what they are really worth as compared to similar Marriott resorts in the same area, the more I think they will go with a conversion only for pure trust point owners. If us weeks owners want in, we have to buy in or perhaps trade in our weeks using "equity value" and buy in to one of the trusts. Marriott doesn't really owe any of us anything. Again though, it is all speculation and guessing or perhaps I just created their new program for them


Agreed. I think they will require you to be a points owner in some form (pure points or as an enrolled weeks owner) to get access to this. As far as valuation goes, an imperfect metric of the accuracy of any proposed integrated points exchange rate might be a comparison back to the points valuations of the underlying weeks in the system someone would be 'cross-exchanging' into?


----------



## Fasttr

JIMinNC said:


> I have a couple questions for those folks who did the deep-dive into the Destination Club CCRs when it was announced almost 10 years ago...
> 
> 1) I understand that the docs say something about the total number of points required to book can't change and that an increase in points required to book in one part of the point chart has to be offset by a decrease elsewhere. Can those adjustments be made *between* resorts or just *within* a given resort?
> 2) Since the points assigned to enrolled weeks are somewhat tied to the points required to book those weeks (the booking cost less the "Skim"), what freedom does Marriott Vacation Club have to change the points assigned to enrolled weeks? In other worlds, can they decide to change the election value of a Maui Ocean Club 2BR OV from 5825 points to 5200 or 6500? It would seem a change like that would trigger the need to adjust booking costs as well, which would then run into the restriction that increases in one part of the chart need to be offset elsewhere.
> 
> I ask this because the discussion a page or two earlier in this thread about the low point values assigned to Caribbean resorts, made me wonder to what extent MVC could use any re-do of the DC system (to incorporate participation by the Vistana/Hyatt networks) to also adjust or rectify any point value imbalances that may have been uncovered in the first decade of the DC?


Here are some more interesting tidbits associated with your first question.....

These are bullet points found on the last page of the full MVC Collection Points Chart they used to publish....example here.... https://www.marriottvacationsworldw...Tools/resorts/charts/pdfDisplay/2018_full.pdf

1. Unless otherwise permitted by applicable law, with respect to any accommodation, no change exceeding ten percent (10%) per annum in the manner in which point values may be used may be made without the assent of at least twenty-five percent (25%) of the voting power of the Association other than the developer.
2. No trust owner will be prevented from using the trust plan as a result of changes in the manner in which point values may be used.
3. In the event point values are changed, no trust owner will be prevented from using the accommodations in the same manner as was provided for under the original purchase contract.
4. Subject to the limitations in items 1 through 3 above, the Points requirements set forth on this Points Schedule are subject to change by the Program Manager at any time, in accordance with Article III of the Reservation Procedures for Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Program. For the most current Points Schedule, please refer to My-VacationClub.com.
5. This is the Points Schedule for MVC Trust.


And here is what the Exchange Docs say in Article III referenced above....  

All Program Members. The Exchange Points necessary to reserve a Use Period are identified on the Exchange Point Schedule. Exchange Company will review the Exchange Point Schedule at least annually and amend the Exchange Point Schedule as necessary to maintain an equitable distribution of the usage requirements based on various factors such as relative daily and seasonal demand, Accommodation capacity, size, view, and furnishings, and other valuation parameters established by Exchange Company or as might be required by law. Any such modification to the Exchange Point Schedule shall not require approval by the Program Members or amendment of these Exchange Procedures.


From my read, the ability to change the Point Schedule seems more restrictive for Trust Point Owners than it is for Exchange Point Owners, perhaps allowing the ability for there to be 2 Points Charts at some point in time???


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> What are the contractual options to change the mandatory status and situation.  Is the ability to exchange to similar HI locked in contractually and if so, can it be changed without a vote of the membership?  Do those resorts have ROFR?  Which could be a way to limit the access from that direction.  Of course they could spin those off and just not worry about it.  Plus I'm sure there's an out if other resorts are no longer in the same system.  Could they just rebrand those resorts as MVC?



Not all mandatory resorts have ROFR. Vistana Villages is one of them and don’t quote me but I believe WKV and St. John doesn’t as well. The question is, is the mandatory part of the deed for membership in “VSN only”, and if the program is done away with, do they get membership granted in another program? They would have to make many petty changes to start eliminating these resorts to ensure mandatory resorts are left out.

They could spin what off? The mandatory properties? I guess they could, but there are some desirable properties that are mandatory. Spin them off how exactly? Where would they go, their own program or the DC program? If So are you guaranteeing DC membership for owners of the deed? It transfers on resale, how would they get rid of that? What would be the point? But something tells me the answer to all of this is going to be much more simpler than everyone is speculating.


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## Beverley

CPNY said:


> Excellent. I assume for only those who purchase through the developer at top pricing? I’ll just rent peoples units in Marriott for less than maint fees if I really wanna go to a crap resort like st Kitts. But in all seriousness, that’s amazing I really hope you listened and bought more to get a higher tier! MVC couldn’t give me 2500 points to be in the program. No thanks.



Renting points can be an excellent idea as it helps both those like you that do not want to buy and owners that have an excess in a particular year. However, please keep in mind that there are many Marriott resorts that are excellent and very well liked by their owners an others who do not own.  Just as I do not hold a high regard for Vistana as a result of personal experiences, I would not insult those who like it by insulting the Marriott resorts. I’ve been to St Kitts and while it is certainly not St Johns it was really quite nice and far from a &$#@ resort.  Many on this board have their preferences on both sides of the house.


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## CPNY

Beverley said:


> Renting points can be an excellent idea as it helps both those like you that do not want to buy and owners that have an excess in a particular year. However, please keep in mind that there are many Marriott resorts that are excellent and very well liked by their owners an others who do not own.  Just as I do not hold a high regard for Vistana as a result of personal experiences, I would not insult those who like it by insulting the Marriott resorts. I’ve been to St Kitts and while it is certainly not St Johns it was really quite nice and far from a &$#@ resort.  Many on this board have their preferences on both sides of the house.



I’m only kidding I’ve been to plenty of Marriott properties I love, i really enjoyed canyon villas and enjoyed access to JW. St Kitts resort itself was really nice. I just am particular with my beach, Which to be fair isn’t the fault of Marriott and i shouldn’t take it out on the club lol. It was The seaweed that killed me. I actually would buy into Aruba Ocean Club but i understand the high maint fee and restrictions make it difficult to own resale, as it cannot be enrolled into DC correct?


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## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> I’m only kidding I’ve been to plenty of Marriott properties I love, i really enjoyed canyon villas and enjoyed access to JW. St Kitts resort itself was really nice. I just am particular with my beach, Which to be fair isn’t the fault of Marriott and i shouldn’t take it out on the club lol. It was The seaweed that killed me. I actually would buy into Aruba Ocean Club but i understand the high maint fee and restrictions make it difficult to own resale, as it cannot be enrolled into DC correct?



Aruba Weeks can be enrolled in the DC subject to the eligibility rules. Buy in via a direct-purchase hybrid Weeks/Points package that includes a Week brokered by Marriott Resales and the Week will be enrolled. Buy in via a Weeks purchase in the external resale market and it can't.


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## Fasttr

CPNY said:


> I actually would buy into Aruba Ocean Club but i understand the high maint fee and restrictions make it difficult to own resale, as it cannot be enrolled into DC correct?


Aruba weeks purchased direct via MVC can be enrolled in the DC.  An Aruba week purchased via resale market currently cannot be enrolled in the DC without a Trust points purchase (either via MVC via a hybrid bundle, or via one of the summer amnesty promotions.)


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## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> Aruba Weeks can be enrolled in the DC subject to the eligibility rules. Buy in via a direct-purchase hybrid Weeks/Points package that includes a Week brokered by Marriott Resales and the Week will be enrolled. Buy in via a Weeks purchase in the external resale market and it can't.


Interesting, I wonder if I did something like a hybrid through their resale might be a good option if the price was right. Then I’d have the best of all worlds!


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## CPNY

Fasttr said:


> Aruba weeks purchased direct via MVC can be enrolled in the DC.  An Aruba week purchased via resale market currently cannot be enrolled in the DC without a Trust points purchase (either via MVC via a hybrid bundle, or via one of the summer amnesty promotions.)


I heard the amnesty promo is back on, is the minimum 10K. With all the speculation I’m wondering if it’s best to wait and see what they offer or get in before they announce. The issue remains, closing in time to beat any cut off. They could announce now but begin in 2020. Would that affect any resale purchases? All of this can make ya crazy, when all I want to do is sit on a beach


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## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> Interesting, I wonder if I did something like a hybrid through their resale might be a good option if the price was right. Then I’d have the best of all worlds!



Be prepared for sticker shock - Marriott Resales has always priced Weeks equivalent or nearly to direct-purchase original Weeks, and the Trust Points cost of hybrid packages is still high. As has been said, hybrid packages may be the most economical way of buying direct because the Week somewhat alleviates the higher costs of straight Trust Points and associated MF's, but it's still not an inexpensive proposition.


----------



## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> Be prepared for sticker shock - Marriott Resales has always priced Weeks equivalent or nearly to direct-purchase original Weeks, and the Trust Points cost of hybrid packages is still high. As has been said, hybrid packages may be the most economical way of buying direct because the Week somewhat alleviates the higher costs of straight Trust Points and associated MF's, but it's still not an inexpensive proposition.


I prefer weeks for a resort I want to go to. Owning harborside was great for me but the rising MF’s and added VAT from the Bahamas made it difficult to own there. I was never able to get availability until after 8 months anyway so why bother? I have a limited amount of resorts that appeal to me these days. Caribbean being my want, so Aruba, St Thomas, St John and Harborside are the resorts I’m interested in. Certain ski resorts would be nice which is why i go back and forth on being in DC.  Hybrid sounds very appealing. It’s the sticker shock that worries me! 2 buck resales are attractive even as a trader in II. Thanks for the clarification.


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## Fasttr

CPNY said:


> I heard the amnesty promo is back on, is the minimum 10K. With all the speculation I’m wondering if it’s best to wait and see what they offer or get in before they announce. The issue remains, closing in time to beat any cut off. They could announce now but begin in 2020. Would that affect any resale purchases? All of this can make ya crazy, when all I want to do is sit on a beach


More like $33K+ on top of the whatever you pay for the resale Ocean Club.  Need to purchase 3000 Trust points to enroll one previously unenrollable week.  If it were me, I would wait and see how it all shakes out before making any moves.

Then again, they could draw a new line in the sand and allow previously unenrollable weeks into the plan with an enrollment fee... and in that case, having your resale Aruba Ocean Club waiting for that would be sweet.  Hard to plan when we don't know what they will roll out.


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## CPNY

Fasttr said:


> More like $33K+ on top of the whatever you pay for the resale Ocean Club.  Need to purchase 3000 Trust points to enroll one previously unenrollable week.  If it were me, I would wait and see how it all shakes out before making any moves.


Yeah I agree even though I just picked up more mandatory deeds in VSN. If it works out to be a bad move, what can ya do! I guess I’ll put my annual pass to universal Orlando to good use 3 weeks a year haha.


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## ocdb8r

bazzap said:


> I understand that the points required to book the 1 Bed and the Studio separately in a lock off capable unit are more than for booking the Full unit.
> I don’t believe though that the points allocated when enrolling that lock off capable unit were any higher than for the equivalent non lock off capable unit.



Sorry that I focused everyone on the "lock-off" capability; this wasn't my intention. 

Let me put it another way - a full 2 bedroom unit at (most) mainland SVn properties sleeps 8 people comfortably, with 2 bedrooms, 2 living rooms (both will full pullout sofa's) a full kitchen and a good sized kitchenette.  As in the Grand Tahoe example, MVC gave large 2 bedroom units there a point premium - I think that means it would be reasonable for an Westin Mission Hills 2-bedroom owner to expect a premium in DC points offered over and above a MVC Desert Springs owner.  There is simply more space and more amenities in the unit.

The larger point is that the increased size/amenities of these units gives MVC some flexibility in how they assign points such that they don't have to as closely match similar resorts in similar geographies (on mainland US) with existing DC resorts.  That in turn could minimize the delta (a bit) in what a Westin Kierland villas owner gets offered compared to a Westin Kaanapali owner compared to the current delta in DC points for resorts in these same geographic areas.


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## bazzap

CPNY said:


> I’m only kidding I’ve been to plenty of Marriott properties I love, i really enjoyed canyon villas and enjoyed access to JW. St Kitts resort itself was really nice. I just am particular with my beach, Which to be fair isn’t the fault of Marriott and i shouldn’t take it out on the club lol. It was The seaweed that killed me. I actually would buy into Aruba Ocean Club but i understand the high maint fee and restrictions make it difficult to own resale, as it cannot be enrolled into DC correct?


The seaweed in St Kitts seems to primarily be a Summer issue.
We have spent some 10+ weeks there in total over the years and never seen the problem.
I can understand though that it could be very unpleasant if there during your stay.
The Sargassum seaweed issue is by no means limited to St Kitts though, it has spread across the whole Atlantic from Africa to the Caribbean, Mexico, Florida...
http://weatherplus.blog.mypalmbeach...orida-during-worst-seaweed-assault-on-record/


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## CPNY

bazzap said:


> The seaweed in St Kitts seems to primarily be a Summer issue.
> We have spent some 10+ weeks there in total over the years and never seen the problem.
> I can understand though that it could be very unpleasant if there during your stay.
> The Sargassum seaweed issue is by no means limited to St Kitts though, it has spread across the whole Atlantic from Africa to the Caribbean, Mexico, Florida...
> http://weatherplus.blog.mypalmbeach...orida-during-worst-seaweed-assault-on-record/



True very true. I was there in the summer from what I remember. Hey, I went zip lining for the first time and it was great! But Aruba Ocean and Surf club was amazing. If the harborside didn’t have the Atlantis attached, I would never go there. Maaybeeee I was a little harsh on the st Kitts property.


----------



## SMB1

ocdb8r said:


> Sorry that I focused everyone on the "lock-off" capability; this wasn't my intention.
> 
> Let me put it another way - a full 2 bedroom unit at (most) mainland SVn properties sleeps 8 people comfortably, with 2 bedrooms, 2 living rooms (both will full pullout sofa's) a full kitchen and a good sized kitchenette.  As in the Grand Tahoe example, MVC gave large 2 bedroom units there a point premium - I think that means it would be reasonable for an Westin Mission Hills 2-bedroom owner to expect a premium in DC points offered over and above a MVC Desert Springs owner.  There is simply more space and more amenities in the unit.
> 
> The larger point is that the increased size/amenities of these units gives MVC some flexibility in how they assign points such that they don't have to as closely match similar resorts in similar geographies (on mainland US) with existing DC resorts.  That in turn could minimize the delta (a bit) in what a Westin Kierland villas owner gets offered compared to a Westin Kaanapali owner compared to the current delta in DC points for resorts in these same geographic areas.



You're probably right.  I'm not sure how they would differentiate valuations between different resorts, but Lakeshore Reserve has standard 2BR LOs and deluxe 2BR LOs.  The deluxe lock off into a standard 1BR and a smaller 1BR with everything but an oven.  The deluxe units are assigned a higher point value than the standard.


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## CalGalTraveler

ocdb8r said:


> I'm not sure I follow - why would the mandatory resale feature affect owners choice to enroll in the DC (if the option was provided)?  If the enrollment fee is low, not sure why they would care if it transfers on ownership (to be clear, I have always assumed SVN as is will continue as it is alongside the DC, with the DC just as an additional option...I think too much work to wind SVN up).  While I think SVN will continue to be relevant, if Maui, St John and Harborside owners are offered attractive DC point values for electing their week in any give year, it could start to crunch SVN inventory when those owners choose to use DC Points.



It sounds like MVC would be unlikely to touch existing provisions in SVN ownership for enrolling. This is good if the enrollment fee is nominal.

Mandatory designation affects property values. Mandatory Vistana deeds (WKORV, WKORVN > 2/3 of Maui, SVV (Key West, Bella), Harborside, WKV, and parts of St. John) provide automatic enrollment in the Staroption points program when the property is purchased by resale buyers. This value to automatically trade SOs is coveted by resale buyers vs. voluntary resorts that can only trade in II. VSN owners love and understand the SO program AND it requires zero incremental spend. Unless MVC uses significant incentives and waives enrollment fees, the adoption of MVC by mandatory owners will be slow so significant declines in VSN inventory will take a very long time. Maybe that's okay because they already have MOC and the properties in Mexico etc. are not mandatory and will have more incentive to enroll. Even if they enroll only a handful of mandatory owners, they can still list it as a destination on their marketing materials to attract retail buyers and enrollees.

Sheraton/Westin Flex required owners to give up their deeds (and their mandatory status) in order to participate.  As a result, Flex has experienced dismal adoption and resale values for Flex plummeted; that's why eliminating mandatory would be a deal breaker.



Dean said:


> What are the contractual options to change the mandatory status and situation.  Is the ability to exchange to similar HI locked in contractually and if so, can it be changed without a vote of the membership?  Do those resorts have ROFR?  Which could be a way to limit the access from that direction.  Of course they could spin those off and just not worry about it.  Plus I'm sure there's an out if other resorts are no longer in the same system.  Could they just rebrand those resorts as MVC?
> 
> There is more than one way to coerce members to join.  The main ones include giving them more or taking away current options.  Even for contractual options they could offer an ultimatum of sign to change the contract or exit the system entirely.  As we've seen a number of posts assuming that they have to do this with kid gloves and try to keep everyone happy, I'm reminded of the discussions leading up to and immediately following when Marriott spun off a number of resorts years ago.  I can think of several ultimatums from Marriott and in some cases where the owners complied and were still let go.  I can think of issues between Aruba Ocean Club with Marriott and Beachplace Towers v Marriott where expulsion was discussed.  I'm sure Marriott knows that not everyone will be happy and some will be vocal and I'm certain they're OK with that.  It's not that they want to upset people I'm sure but if it stands in the way of having a variable and profitable future venture, I'm sure they will not hesitate to make some difficult decisions once they've weighed all their options.  This "I'll complain", "I'll sue" or the infamous "Class Action Lawsuit" are not going to affect them if they feel they are on solid legal ground.



Although MVC is profit-driven, it doesn't seem that coercion and alienating owners of desirable properties to add to their portfolio would be prudent or in their MO. Especially for something as mundane as points program participation.

Can you provide more specifics on what issues led to the ultimatums with Aruba Ocean Club et al? Did it have to do with points enrollment? Or were there more severe issues involved?


----------



## rickandcindy23

The price for converting all of our weeks to DC will be outrageous.  We just own resale weeks.  I don't even want to hear the price they want for that.  I remember that $1.5 million the salesman talked about a few years ago, just to convert my weeks to SO's.  That was just a nasty offer.  

My concern is getting resorts up to the same quality as Marriott.  I think Marriott will consider SBP as a sub-standard resort, especially after I saw the remodel of the units at Cypress Harbour.  No way does SBP compete with the Marriott remodels. I think the exterior hallways need some work at SBP, too.  They aren't clean and shiny like Cypress Harbour.   The unit itself was nice, pretty comfortable.


----------



## SueDonJ

ocdb8r said:


> Sorry that I focused everyone on the "lock-off" capability; this wasn't my intention.
> 
> Let me put it another way - a full 2 bedroom unit at (most) mainland SVn properties sleeps 8 people comfortably, with 2 bedrooms, 2 living rooms (both will full pullout sofa's) a full kitchen and a good sized kitchenette.  As in the Grand Tahoe example, MVC gave large 2 bedroom units there a point premium - I think that means it would be reasonable for an Westin Mission Hills 2-bedroom owner to expect a premium in DC points offered over and above a MVC Desert Springs owner.  There is simply more space and more amenities in the unit.
> 
> The larger point is that the increased size/amenities of these units gives MVC some flexibility in how they assign points such that they don't have to as closely match similar resorts in similar geographies (on mainland US) with existing DC resorts.  That in turn could minimize the delta (a bit) in what a Westin Kierland villas owner gets offered compared to a Westin Kaanapali owner compared to the current delta in DC points for resorts in these same geographic areas.



Amenities are a factor, sure, both contained within the individual units and expanded to the common areas within a property footprint. Increased unit size is a factor insofar as the number of bedrooms, but a larger unit size by square footage might not be the factor you think it could be among units that have the same bedroom/head count. Consider the non-lockoff 2BR units across the eight Marriott resorts on Hilton Head Island - they all decreased in unit sqft and increased in common area amenities as each came online, yet Weeks at the newer/smaller-unit resorts have been allocated more DC Points than the older/larger. Marriott generally uses its own suppliers for furnishings/appliances/electronics and similarly outfits each unit during routine scheduled refurbs, the common/exterior areas less so but they try subject to constraints of the overall footprints. I'd guess the more important factor when they established DC Points allotments is that the newer resorts are in higher demand. (Just to note that two of these eight resorts also offer non-lockoff 3BR units which are allocated more DC Points than same-property 2BR's, as reasonably expected.)

I don't know how all that might relate to the specific Vistana properties you're citing?


----------



## SueDonJ

rickandcindy23 said:


> The price for converting all of our weeks to DC will be outrageous.  We just own resale weeks.  I don't even want to hear the price they want for that.  I remember that $1.5 million the salesman talked about a few years ago, just to convert my weeks to SO's.  That was just a nasty offer. ...



You may be pleasantly surprised.  The current Enrollment Fee is $2,395 no matter how many eligible Weeks you're enrolling. Even at the DC inception when the enrollment fees for multiple Weeks were based on how the units were purchased, i.e. $695 (direct-purchase) and $1,995 (external resale,) they were flat fees for a single account, not per Week.


----------



## JIMinNC

SueDonJ said:


> Be prepared for sticker shock - Marriott Resales has always priced Weeks equivalent or nearly to direct-purchase original Weeks, and the Trust Points cost of hybrid packages is still high. As has been said, hybrid packages may be the most economical way of buying direct because the Week somewhat alleviates the higher costs of straight Trust Points and associated MF's, but it's still not an inexpensive proposition.



I agree with the sticker shock since a hybrid bundle usually costs over $20K, but that sticker shock is mainly due to the price of the Trust points that are in the bundles. While Marriott Resales does charge higher prices for their resale weeks than the aftermarket, it's nowhere near typical developer pricing for resales, at least at US resorts. Our original entree into MVC in 2014 was via a hybrid bundle built around a Silver Barony week, and that week only cost $3300. The matching points added about $19K. When MVC Resales once listed their prices online, I believe you could buy a 3BR Platinum Grande Vista for about $12K, Maui Ocean Club 2BR OV weeks were around $20K (versus $16K on the third-party market), and I think I recall Grande Ocean 2BR OF Gold could be had for $18K or so.

Back when MVC was still selling developer weeks, resale pricing was virtually the same as developer, but after the advent of the DC, their resale pricing dropped dramatically, just not all the way to aftermarket levels.


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> I heard the amnesty promo is back on, is the minimum 10K. With all the speculation I’m wondering if it’s best to wait and see what they offer or get in before they announce. The issue remains, closing in time to beat any cut off. They could announce now but begin in 2020. Would that affect any resale purchases? All of this can make ya crazy, when all I want to do is sit on a beach



The amnesty promo for 2019 ran from sometime this spring (March or April, I recall) until July 7. Have you heard it has been extended beyond July 7?


----------



## SueDonJ

CalGalTraveler said:


> Can you provide more specifics on what issues led to the ultimatums with Aruba Ocean Club et al? Did it have to do with points enrollment? Or were there more severe issues involved?



It had nothing to do with the DC, dating all the way back to 2008. Owners were hit with a substantial multi-year Special Assessment for extensive damage to the resort resulting from a combination of poor construction, inferior products and a resort Board that hadn't been as fiscally responsible in funding the Reserves as they should have been. Marriott didn't build from the ground up, it acquired the property after construction had started and then completed the build before selling Weeks. Marriott assumed a portion of the costs that they could have justifiably (according to the governing docs) assessed to the owners, thereby lessening the amount of the owners' SA's. Despite that, a Board member spearheaded an effort to gain support for a class action suit misusing proprietary information he gleaned as a member, but it was a poorly-established and -run effort that was doomed to fail from its start.

That's the basics with a heavy dose of my negative opinion of that overall effort. I'm sure others will have a different take.


----------



## rickandcindy23

SueDonJ said:


> You may be pleasantly surprised.  The current Enrollment Fee is $2,395 no matter how many eligible Weeks you're enrolling. Even at the DC inception when the enrollment fees for multiple Weeks were based on how the units were purchased, i.e. $695 (direct-purchase) and $1,995 (external resale,) they were flat fees for a single account, not per Week.


That could be a nice surprise.  I bought all of our weeks resale, so I am sure that will be the consideration.  I got most for free, actually.  We bought Marriott's Willow Ridge resale after DC, and the offer to bring our weeks in was like $70K (for two weeks and a purchase at Ko Olina).


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> The amnesty promo for 2019 ran from sometime this spring (March or April, I recall) until July 7. Have you heard it has been extended beyond July 7?


Hearsay that there was a promo running in the summer but they could have been referencing the promo you say expired July 7th. It’s prob expired and they weren’t aware.


----------



## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> You may be pleasantly surprised.  The current Enrollment Fee is $2,395 no matter how many eligible Weeks you're enrolling. Even at the DC inception when the enrollment fees for multiple Weeks were based on how the units were purchased, i.e. $695 (direct-purchase) and $1,995 (external resale,) they were flat fees for a single account, not per Week.



$2,395 for multiple weeks isn’t bad at all. But would I keep my membership in the VSN and keep my star options in that trust? Or if I would be enrolled in and subject to DC trust inventory, booking back into VSN Resorts, that would make me think twice on enrolling. Then add in possibility of a dual membership fee one for DC and another for VSN if the week in enrolled in both.


----------



## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> $2,395 for multiple weeks isn’t bad at all. But would I keep my membership in the VSN and keep my star options in that trust? Or if I would be enrolled in and subject to DC trust inventory, booking back into VSN Resorts, that would make me think twice on enrolling. Then add in possibility of a dual membership fee one for DC and another for VSN if the week in enrolled in both.



All questions for which there can't be any answers until/unless something is rolled out officially.


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## SueDonJ

rickandcindy23 said:


> That could be a nice surprise.  I bought all of our weeks resale, so I am sure that will be the consideration.  I got most for free, actually.  We bought Marriott's Willow Ridge resale after DC, and the offer to bring our weeks in was like $70K (for two weeks and a purchase at Ko Olina).



You could get even more lucky and they'll let you enroll your officially-ineligible Marriott Weeks at the same time. There's nothing to say they will or that they won't allow it, and wouldn't that be nice?!


----------



## JIMinNC

rickandcindy23 said:


> We bought Marriott's Willow Ridge resale after DC, and the offer to bring our weeks in was like $70K (for two weeks and a purchase at Ko Olina).



That sounds like their standard amnesty promo for resale weeks bought *after* June 2010. When the DC first started, it was much cheaper to bring all your pre-6/2010 resale weeks in - a fee only, no points purchase required. The speculation in this thread has been that if they want to try to get a lot of Vistana inventory into any cross-program exchange, they will have to make a similarly attractive fee-based offer to Vistana owners like they did for pre-6/2010 legacy MVC weeks owners. Presumably they would say if you owned Vistana before X date, you qualify for the discounted pricing. But it's all really just us guessing.


----------



## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> All questions for which there can't be any answers until/unless something is rolled out officially.


I know lol I’m asking hypothetically. The suspense lol. Watch they roll out the easiest solution and we are all left to scratch our heads thinking, heh, that was easy lol.


----------



## JIMinNC

SueDonJ said:


> You could get even more lucky and they'll let you enroll your officially-ineligible Marriott Weeks at the same time. There's nothing to say they will or that they won't allow it, and wouldn't that be nice?!



That would be amazing, but I ain't holdin' my breath. 

Just based on how many TUGgers have taken advantage of those annual amnesty promotions that require you to shell out $33K or more, I suspect those promos have been very lucrative for MVW. I can't imagine them offering enrollment to pre-2010 owners that doesn't involve a points purchase. It would seem that would convert too many potential points sales to a one time fee.


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## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> I know lol I’m asking hypothetically. The suspense lol. Watch they roll out the easiest solution and we are all left to scratch our heads thinking, heh, that was easy lol.



Some parallels can be drawn and educated guesses made between what happens with Marriott Weeks and what may happen with Vistana/Hyatt ownerships, relative to the DC, but some things are just too complicated or present brand new challenges that we just can't even take a guess. It's not going out on a limb to say that if/when something is rolled out, a lot of the speculation will help things click into focus while a lot of it will be completely irrelevant.


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## SueDonJ

JIMinNC said:


> That would be amazing, but I ain't holdin' my breath.
> 
> Just based on how many TUGgers have taken advantage of those annual amnesty promotions that require you to shell out $33K or more, I suspect those promos have been very lucrative for MVW. I can't imagine them offering enrollment to pre-2010 owners that doesn't involve a points purchase. It would seem that would convert too many potential points sales to a one time fee.



I know, unlikely, but there's always a possibility ...


----------



## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> Some parallels can be drawn and educated guesses made between what happens with Marriott Weeks and what may happen with Vistana/Hyatt ownerships, relative to the DC, but some things are just too complicated or present brand new challenges that we just can't even take a guess. It's not going out on a limb to say that if/when something is rolled out, a lot of the speculation will help things click into focus while a lot of it will be completely irrelevant.



Oh I’m sure bits and pieces of the solution has already been laid out in all of these threads or maybe Marriott execs are on here reading and saying, “I like that idea” oh “that one looks good too” lol.


----------



## DannyTS

are there any arguments against enrolling Vistana weeks into their system? I will have to weigh pros and cons. Most of our weeks are platinum Lagunamar that we enjoy using for us, friends and close family (friends have to reimburse us the MF). You can also rent them to strangers for more than the MF. Given that on top of the MF, we already pay SVN fees and Interval annual/ exchange fees, paying few thousands to enroll plus DC annual fees plus God knows what other DC fees they come up with does make me think it won't be a no brainer. Unless the availability will dry up completely, i do not think that I will give up Interval trading anytime soon since it is the place where you can squeeze more value than anywhere else. We have been members for a year and we already exchanged for 2 bdr at Grand Solmar, Marriott Ko'olina, Renaissance Aruba and week 51 at Trapp in VT, all depositing just studios!


----------



## csalter2

SueDonJ said:


> You may be pleasantly surprised.  The current Enrollment Fee is $2,395 no matter how many eligible Weeks you're enrolling. Even at the DC inception when the enrollment fees for multiple Weeks were based on how the units were purchased, i.e. $695 (direct-purchase) and $1,995 (external resale,) they were flat fees for a single account, not per Week.



Plus, you got 800 bonus DC points when you enrolled when they first introduced the Destinations Club.


----------



## csalter2

JIMinNC said:


> The amnesty promo for 2019 ran from sometime this spring (March or April, I recall) until July 7. Have you heard it has been extended beyond July 7?



I just spoke to a salesman a couple of days ago. It’s on for another week.


----------



## CPNY

DannyTS said:


> are there any arguments against enrolling Vistana weeks into their system? I will have to weigh pros and cons. Most of our weeks are platinum Lagunamar that we enjoy using for us, friends and close family (friends have to reimburse us the MF). You can also rent them to strangers for more than the MF. Given that on top of the MF, we already pay SVN fees and Interval annual/ exchange fees, paying few thousands to enroll plus DC annual fees plus God knows what other DC fees they come up with does make me think it will not be a no brainier decision. Unless the availability will dry up completely, i do not think that I will give up Interval trading anytime soon since it is the place where you can squeeze more value than anywhere else. We have been members for a year and we already exchanged for 2 bdr at Grand Solmar, Marriott Ko'olina, Renaissance Aruba and week 51 at Trapp in VT, all depositing just studios!



It depends on what is rolled out, how much more they want for access, if that access is worth it (to the owner), what you may lose (if anything), etc. it all depends on how you use your VOI’s. It seems that everyone here travels at least 80% (solid guess, could be way off) using their VOI. For someone like me who has been traveling internationally and been loving doing the airbnb villa/flat route and using my VOI every other year or so, the burden of a huge expense isn’t worth it, for me. If you have kids and want more destinations then I think opening the destinations for Vistana owners to join the DC program could be an excellent option. DC owners on the other hand get access to a handful of new destinations. Tbh, they shouldn’t be charged anything, since in reality they are just getting access to a Westin named resort. They have so many destinations the Vistana owner doesn’t. As a VSN owner I just want my star options booking in the resorts I like. 

Some will have decisions to make whenever they roll out what they will roll out. Good luck to us all.


----------



## SueDonJ

It occurs to me, during the couple years preceding the DC rollout there were a few different "surveys" sent out by Marriott corporate to the timeshare owners asking about points-based products in the industry and whether/how Marriott owners could be enticed to participate in one if Marriott offered it, several of them discussed extensively on TUG. They included some vague commentary but also very detailed questions involving every aspect from cost to usage to positive/negative connotations, and everything in between. Those surveys REALLY ramped up the speculation that had already been in the TUG pipeline after a poster would report an occasional comment heard in sales presentations about upcoming changes. When it was rolled out some of what was delineated in those surveys came to fruition triggering light-bulb moments, some was completely irrelevant.

Have Vistana/Hyatt people gotten any surveys?


----------



## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> It occurs to me, during the couple years preceding the DC rollout there were a few different "surveys" sent out by Marriott corporate to the timeshare owners asking about points-based products in the industry and whether/how Marriott owners could be enticed to participate in one if Marriott offered it, several of them discussed extensively on TUG. They included some vague commentary but also very detailed questions involving every aspect from cost to usage to positive/negative connotations, and everything in between. Those surveys REALLY ramped up the speculation that had already been in the TUG pipeline after a poster would report an occasional comment heard in sales presentations about upcoming changes. When it was rolled out some of what was delineated in those surveys came to fruition triggering light-bulb moments, some was completely irrelevant.
> 
> Have Vistana/Hyatt people gotten any surveys?


Hmm not that I can remember. Just went back through email and didn’t see anything except for the letter outlining the acquisition was complete


I am pleased to share that the transaction is complete. Through this combination, we are excited to introduce new opportunities for Owners.


*Owners in the Vistana Signature Network can now use their ownership to access Marriott hotels and resorts worldwide through the SPG program. *

_Previously, hotel loyalty points received in connection with your vacation ownership were only eligible to be used at SPG-branded hotels. Now, you have even more choices at over 6,500 hotels and resorts across 29 unique brands in 127 countries, including Marriott-branded hotels — all while continuing to receive preferred status recognition as a Gold Elite member in the SPG program._

*Receive expanded and enhanced discounts at Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, and Marriott Vacation Club resorts.*

_All Owners will now receive 25% off available nightly rental rates, as well as exclusive discounts on certain food, beverage and activities at participating outlets, at Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, and Marriott Vacation Club resorts, subject to applicable terms and conditions. To make a reservation or learn more, log in to vistana.com and select Owner Exclusives on your Owner Dashboard. Additional information may be provided at time of check-in._


We are extremely excited about the future. We want to assure you that this is only the beginning as we continue to work hard to determine whether additional benefits and services could potentially be made available in the future from our newly combined company. Our goals remain consistent: to provide the highest-quality vacation experiences and greatest flexibility for our valued Owners.


----------



## Pamplemousse

.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

II is automatically bundled into the SVN SO annual fee so there probably will be some kind of offset for that in the offer so we don't have to pay that twice.


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## SteelerGal

Received the same. Plus now when you go into your Dashboard, it shows how many Bonvoy Pts your VOI can convert 2.


----------



## Dean

CPNY said:


> Not all mandatory resorts have ROFR. Vistana Villages is one of them and don’t quote me but I believe WKV and St. John doesn’t as well. The question is, is the mandatory part of the deed for membership in “VSN only”, and if the program is done away with, do they get membership granted in another program? They would have to make many petty changes to start eliminating these resorts to ensure mandatory resorts are left out.
> 
> They could spin what off? The mandatory properties? I guess they could, but there are some desirable properties that are mandatory. Spin them off how exactly? Where would they go, their own program or the DC program? If So are you guaranteeing DC membership for owners of the deed? It transfers on resale, how would they get rid of that? What would be the point? But something tells me the answer to all of this is going to be much more simpler than everyone is speculating.


I think if you'll read the POS critically you'll see there are options that would allow a lot of changes.  They could pick and chose what to spin off if they wanted or even sell of entire segments.  



ocdb8r said:


> Sorry that I focused everyone on the "lock-off" capability; this wasn't my intention.
> 
> Let me put it another way - a full 2 bedroom unit at (most) mainland SVn properties sleeps 8 people comfortably, with 2 bedrooms, 2 living rooms (both will full pullout sofa's) a full kitchen and a good sized kitchenette.  As in the Grand Tahoe example, MVC gave large 2 bedroom units there a point premium - I think that means it would be reasonable for an Westin Mission Hills 2-bedroom owner to expect a premium in DC points offered over and above a MVC Desert Springs owner.  There is simply more space and more amenities in the unit.
> 
> The larger point is that the increased size/amenities of these units gives MVC some flexibility in how they assign points such that they don't have to as closely match similar resorts in similar geographies (on mainland US) with existing DC resorts.  That in turn could minimize the delta (a bit) in what a Westin Kierland villas owner gets offered compared to a Westin Kaanapali owner compared to the current delta in DC points for resorts in these same geographic areas.


I don't think they'll use sq ft or sleeping capacity (6 vs 8) as part of the equation but rather desirability of the area and season compared to general unit size.



CalGalTraveler said:


> Sheraton/Westin Flex required owners to give up their deeds (and their mandatory status) in order to participate.  As a result, Flex has experienced dismal adoption and resale values for Flex plummeted; that's why eliminating mandatory would be a deal breaker.
> 
> 
> 
> Although MVC is profit-driven, it doesn't seem that coercion and alienating owners of desirable properties to add to their portfolio would be prudent or in their MO. Especially for something as mundane as points program participation.
> 
> Can you provide more specifics on what issues led to the ultimatums with Aruba Ocean Club et al? Did it have to do with points enrollment? Or were there more severe issues involved?


I don't think they care about resale prices.  I'm sure they'll strike a balance but I'm also sure that some will feel this way after what ever is announced.



rickandcindy23 said:


> The price for converting all of our weeks to DC will be outrageous.  We just own resale weeks.  I don't even want to hear the price they want for that.  I remember that $1.5 million the salesman talked about a few years ago, just to convert my weeks to SO's.  That was just a nasty offer.
> 
> My concern is getting resorts up to the same quality as Marriott.  I think Marriott will consider SBP as a sub-standard resort, especially after I saw the remodel of the units at Cypress Harbour.  No way does SBP compete with the Marriott remodels. I think the exterior hallways need some work at SBP, too.  They aren't clean and shiny like Cypress Harbour.   The unit itself was nice, pretty comfortable.


You can do up to 7 weeks (maybe 8 with a waiver) for $48K-$60K based on this years program.  Even if some of the resorts don't make sense to take points, getting them all enrolled gives you options an reduces some of the other fees potentially.  I'm sure some know more than I on the ultimatums and separation.  As I understand it MVC & the HOA for Beachplace went toe to toe with a compromise but a letter sent by MVC threatening separation.  For AOC there was a battle with the board and MVC about room repairs.  I know separation was threatened but not sure how far it got.


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> I think if you'll read the POS critically you'll see there are options that would allow a lot of changes.  They could pick and chose what to spin off if they wanted or even sell of entire segments.



I read they can make many changes. Essentially the POS means nothing when they put a line in that anything in the POS can be changed for any reason basically. I wasn’t questioning if they can do the spin off. I was questioning in what capacity? Where would it go? For what reason? Say Sheraton Vistana villages has XX amount of owners, why would they want to get rid of XX amount of owners that they have the potential to sell to each year?

If i owned at a resort that Marriott sold because they didn’t want to deal with a mandatory deed, I would never spend a dime with Marriott again. Last thing I would do is buy points from them. As far as Orlando is concerned. There are only two phases in Vistana villages that are mandatory and all of Sheraton resorts is voluntary. So they actually have a lot of owners to sell DC too, that own voluntary deeds. But geez, now you have me thinking they are going to sell Vistana villages haha thanks a lot lol


----------



## kds4

JIMinNC said:


> I agree with the sticker shock since a hybrid bundle usually costs over $20K, but that sticker shock is mainly due to the price of the Trust points that are in the bundles. While Marriott Resales does charge higher prices for their resale weeks than the aftermarket, it's nowhere near typical developer pricing for resales, at least at US resorts. Our original entree into MVC in 2014 was via a hybrid bundle built around a Silver Barony week, and that week only cost $3300. The matching points added about $19K. When MVC Resales once listed their prices online, I believe you could buy a 3BR Platinum Grande Vista for about $12K, Maui Ocean Club 2BR OV weeks were around $20K (versus $16K on the third-party market), and I think I recall Grande Ocean 2BR OF Gold could be had for $18K or so.
> 
> Back when MVC was still selling developer weeks, resale pricing was virtually the same as developer, but after the advent of the DC, their resale pricing dropped dramatically, just not all the way to aftermarket levels.



Definite post DC price-drop. That 3BR Platinum Grande Vista that became about $12k was pitched to us during our very first presentation in 2009 for $36k. We went external resale that same year and bought our first week (a 3BR Platinum at MGV for $11k). Since then, we have picked up other 3BR Gold and even Platinum MGV/MGR for under $4k each over the years. Not sure what 3BR Platinum MGV/MGR is currently going for external resale as we haven't bought any weeks in a few years.


----------



## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> I read they can make many changes. Essentially the POS means nothing when they put a line in that anything in the POS can be changed for any reason basically. I wasn’t questioning if they can do the spin off. I was questioning in what capacity? Where would it go? For what reason? Say Sheraton Vistana villages has XX amount of owners, why would they want to get rid of XX amount of owners that they have the potential to sell to each year?
> 
> If i owned at a resort that Marriott sold because they didn’t want to deal with a mandatory deed, I would never spend a dime with Marriott again. Last thing I would do is buy points from them. As far as Orlando is concerned. There are only two phases in Vistana villages that are mandatory and all of Sheraton resorts is voluntary. So they actually have a lot of owners to sell DC too, that own voluntary deeds. But geez, now you have me thinking they are going to sell Vistana villages haha thanks a lot lol



I'm not sure this makes sense? Vistana sold its control of your timeshares to a competitor yet you still talk about considering new purchases of Vistana-branded products?

As proven by TUG, savvy timeshare owners will buy into whatever system gives them the usage they want at whatever price they're willing to pay, whether that's the least expensive Week interval available on the external market or a unique developer product that comes at a heavy price, all the while knowing that change is inevitable. And many do not have a preference for one brand that keeps us from at least looking at the others.


----------



## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> I'm not sure this makes sense? Vistana sold its control of your timeshares to a competitor yet you still talk about considering new purchases of Vistana-branded products?
> 
> As proven by TUG, savvy timeshare owners will buy into whatever system gives them the usage they want at whatever price they're willing to pay, whether that's the least expensive Week interval available on the external market or a unique developer product that comes at a heavy price, all the while knowing that change is inevitable. And many do not have a preference for one brand that keeps us from at least looking at the others.



I’m not talking about purchasing a new product from Vistana, I’m saying to the point that was made, that Marriott can sell off my resort. If they did I wouldn’t go back to Marriott and buy, say DC points. It’s all hypothetical right, so if my resort was spun off or sold, I still own what i own. I wouldn’t turn around and buy a Marriott DC points at that time. I wouldn’t drop the amount of new purchase money they would be asking. I’d spend some time renting and looking to see if I wanted to get back in the game. Or to many points that have been made, pick up a good deeded week and play the interval exchange game. 

But My question was, why would Marriott want to sell off a resort they acquired? Why annex a base of customers that you can continually make money off of in the future? To your point, no I would never buy back into Vistana right now (the flex plan) not with the uncertainty on what’s coming on the horizon.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

kds4 said:


> Definite post DC price-drop. That 3BR Platinum Grande Vista that became about $12k was pitched to us during our very first presentation in 2009 for $36k. We went external resale that same year and bought our first week (a 3BR Platinum at MGV for $11k). Since then, we have picked up other 3BR Gold and even Platinum MGV/MGR for under $4k each over the years. Not sure what 3BR Platinum MGV/MGR is currently going for external resale as we haven't bought any weeks in a few years.





I think the price drops came about as a result of the bottoming out of the economy from 2008 to 2015 or so.  These lower prices were basically at every Marriott Resort, not just Grande Vista.




.


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> But My question was, why would Marriott want to sell off a resort they acquired? Why annex a base of customers that you can continually make money off of in the future? To your point, no I would never buy back into Vistana right now (the flex plan) not with the uncertainty on what’s coming on the horizon.



No, I don't think Marriott will spin off any Vistana resort.  Even with mandatory resorts, that are a lot mid class customers Marriott want to keep and making steady income with potential sale: DC products, retro resale, exchange fees, membership fee, yearly MF, travel spend at resorts, etc...  Marriott will keep you and find ways to make more from your pocket.


----------



## dioxide45

SMB1 said:


> You're probably right.  I'm not sure how they would differentiate valuations between different resorts, but Lakeshore Reserve has standard 2BR LOs and deluxe 2BR LOs.  The deluxe lock off into a standard 1BR and a smaller 1BR with everything but an oven.  The deluxe units are assigned a higher point value than the standard.


Lakeshore Reserve is the best example in the Marriott system as it would compare to the 2BR units within the Vistana system and most of the 2BR units in Marriott. I definitely expect them to allocate higher point allocations to Westin 2BR units than they did for Marriotts in the same areas (like Scottsdale).


----------



## dioxide45

ocdb8r said:


> I think the past is in the past and actual sales prices for weeks played very little into how DC point values were set at launch....


I can assure you that is most certainly did. THis was well discussed back when they rolled out the DC program. It probably wasn't the only factor, but for many of the weeks if you simply multiplied the DC points by 10, you got close to what the last sales price was for that week. They used that as a general guide and probably then moved certain resorts/seasons up or down a little to adjust. This is why Aruba ended up with a poor allocation compared to places like Hawaii.

However now when brining in Vistana weeks, they simply can't do that because a prime WKV week likely isn't worth 6,000 DC points when you compare it to the Marriott Resort in the area. The same is true in the Desert.


----------



## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> I’m not talking about purchasing a new product from Vistana, I’m saying to the point that was made, that Marriott can sell off my resort. If they did I wouldn’t go back to Marriott and buy, say DC points. It’s all hypothetical right, so if my resort was spun off or sold, I still own what i own. I wouldn’t turn around and buy a Marriott DC points at that time. I wouldn’t drop the amount of new purchase money they would be asking. I’d spend some time renting and looking to see if I wanted to get back in the game. Or to many points that have been made, pick up a good deeded week and play the interval exchange game.
> 
> But My question was, why would Marriott want to sell off a resort they acquired? Why annex a base of customers that you can continually make money off of in the future? To your point, no I would never buy back into Vistana right now (the flex plan) not with the uncertainty on what’s coming on the horizon.



Whole segments could get spun or sold off any time for a number of reasons, for example in these discussions people have mentioned that Marriott could let the Hyatt segment go if they can't resolve whatever issues appear to be insurmountable due to licensing. Under the Marriott umbrella, there have been resorts at which MVC failed to renew the management contract, and took the name off the properties, due to disputes between a large segment of the owners and Marriott as Manager. That hasn't stopped people who owned at those resorts at the time from keeping the other Marriott-branded timeshares in their portfolios, or even purchasing other Marriotts after the split. There've also been other resorts where issues came close to the point of Marriott separating itself as Manager but those issues were ultimately resolved without separation. It's business, you have to at least be aware that changes out of your control may happen.

I don't see anything right now that appears to be a predictor of Marriott selling off any Vistana-branded resorts. I get what you're saying, that if yours is and the new company doesn't change any of your usage options, you'll keep it, and I understand that a pure DC Trust Points purchase isn't what you want from Marriott. I just don't understand saying that Marriott would effectively be dead to you as a result of them selling off your resort because they're unable to keep it as is within their system. Again, it's business, and you just never know what your future needs will be or which company may best provide them.


----------



## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> Whole segments could get spun or sold off any time for a number of reasons, for example in these discussions people have mentioned that Marriott could let the Hyatt segment go if they can't resolve whatever issues appear to be insurmountable due to licensing. Under the Marriott umbrella, there have been resorts at which MVC failed to renew the management contract, and took the name off the properties, due to disputes between a large segment of the owners and Marriott as Manager. That hasn't stopped people who owned at those resorts at the time from keeping the other Marriott-branded timeshares in their portfolios, or even purchasing other Marriotts after the split. There've also been other resorts where issues came close to the point of Marriott separating itself as Manager but those issues were ultimately resolved without separation. It's business, you have to at least be aware that changes out of your control may happen.
> 
> I don't see anything right now that appears to be a predictor of Marriott selling off any Vistana-branded resorts. I get what you're saying, that if yours is and the new company doesn't change any of your usage options, you'll keep it, and I understand that a pure DC Trust Points purchase isn't what you want from Marriott. I just don't understand saying that Marriott would effectively be dead to you as a result of them selling off your resort because they're unable to keep it as is within their system. Again, it's business, and you just never know what your future needs will be or which company may best provide them.



I think that’s the beauty of being a consumer. I have the choice where my money goes. I’d purchase a resale deeded week in MVC Aruba and go through II Exchange for other resorts, or just rent and go where I want without the sticker shock price they are selling ownership for, that is all I’m saying. Marriott wouldn’t be dead to me from a usage stand point (renting)or resale ownership.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> No, I don't think Marriott will spin off any Vistana resort.  Even with mandatory resorts, that are a lot mid class customers Marriott want to keep and making steady income with potential sale: DC products, retro resale, exchange fees, membership fee, yearly MF, travel spend at resorts, etc...  Marriott will keep you and find ways to make more from your pocket.


That’s Exactly my point. Someone said they could spin off resorts in regards to mandatory properties, but that doesn’t make any sense


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> Amenities are a factor, sure, both contained within the individual units and expanded to the common areas within a property footprint. Increased unit size is a factor insofar as the number of bedrooms, but a larger unit size by square footage might not be the factor you think it could be among units that have the same bedroom/head count. Consider the non-lockoff 2BR units across the eight Marriott resorts on Hilton Head Island - they all decreased in unit sqft and increased in common area amenities as each came online, yet Weeks at the newer/smaller-unit resorts have been allocated more DC Points than the older/larger. Marriott generally uses its own suppliers for furnishings/appliances/electronics and similarly outfits each unit during routine scheduled refurbs, the common/exterior areas less so but they try subject to constraints of the overall footprints. I'd guess the more important factor when they established DC Points allotments is that the newer resorts are in higher demand. (Just to note that two of these eight resorts also offer non-lockoff 3BR units which are allocated more DC Points than same-property 2BR's, as reasonably expected.)
> 
> I don't know how all that might relate to the specific Vistana properties you're citing?


THe specific Vistana properties have 2BR units that lock of in to a large 1BR and a small 1BR unit. Not a 1BR unit and a studio like at most Marriott properties. In the cases of the Vistana properties, both units have in room laundry and much better kitchen facilities. The smaller 1BR will often have a full size fridge and cooktop. While square footage isn't a determining factor in the DC point allocation, the amenities in the unit are and two 1BR units are better than a 1BR and a studio. The 2BR deluxe units vs the 2BR standard at Lakeshore Reserve prove a higher point allocation for the 2BR units that lock off in to two 1BR units.



Dean said:


> I think if you'll read the POS critically you'll see there are options that would allow a lot of changes. They could pick and chose what to spin off if they wanted or even sell of entire segments.





CPNY said:


> If i owned at a resort that Marriott sold because they didn’t want to deal with a mandatory deed, I would never spend a dime with Marriott again. Last thing I would do is buy points from them. As far as Orlando is concerned. There are only two phases in Vistana villages that are mandatory and all of Sheraton resorts is voluntary. So they actually have a lot of owners to sell DC too, that own voluntary deeds. But geez, now you have me thinking they are going to sell Vistana villages haha thanks a lot lol


I highly doubt they will spin anything off. Now that they have conveyed all of the Vistana properties to one of their trusts, would they really want someone else managing resorts that they also own inside of the trusts? It isn't going to happen. Current customers are always your best customers. They want to be able to market to all the owners at Vistana resorts to sell them on the new trust products.


----------



## DannyTS

why do we think that we are such thorns (mandatory resale owners) in their eyes? I think the average is 90% retail/10% resale, I just do not think the number of resale owners justifies any major effort on their part.


----------



## DannyTS

Orlando is overbuilt for a reason: it attracts cohorts of stressed and excited parents carrying  2-3 kids around their necks, exquisitely marinated and ready for a timeshare presentation. Why would Marriott not want those resorts in their portfolio?


----------



## dioxide45

DannyTS said:


> why do we think that we are such thorns (mandatory resale owners) in their eyes? I think the average is 90% retail/10% resale, I just do not think the number of resale owners justifies any major effort on their part.


I don't think they see mandatory owners as thorns. THey see the mandatory weeks in general as thorns. If they wipe out VSN and make DC the new club, then perhaps they have opened up the DC program to allow resale weeks to get in on the cheap. The DC club could be considered the mandatory club that those mandatory weeks must be a part of. Marriott hates resales and I don't see them giving an in to the DC program through the mandatory resale weeks. Vistana shut down any new resorts being mandatory pretty early when they learned the error of their ways.


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think they see mandatory owners as thorns. THey see the mandatory weeks in general as thorns. If they wipe out VSN and make DC the new club, then perhaps they have opened up the DC program to allow resale weeks to get in on the cheap. The DC club could be considered the mandatory club that those mandatory weeks must be a part of. Marriott hates resales and I don't see them giving an in to the DC program through the mandatory resale weeks. Vistana shut down any new resorts being mandatory pretty early when they learned the error of their ways.



Any idea/guess as to what percentage of Vistana owners are owners at the Mandatory resorts? In other words, how many people would be impacted by whatever decision MVW might make regarding the Mandatory weeks?


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> THe specific Vistana properties have 2BR units that lock of in to a large 1BR and a small 1BR unit. Not a 1BR unit and a studio like at most Marriott properties. In the cases of the Vistana properties, both units have in room laundry and much better kitchen facilities. The smaller 1BR will often have a full size fridge and cooktop. While square footage isn't a determining factor in the DC point allocation, the amenities in the unit are and two 1BR units are better than a 1BR and a studio. The 2BR deluxe units vs the 2BR standard at Lakeshore Reserve prove a higher point allocation for the 2BR units that lock off in to two 1BR units.



Understood, it happens at the few Marriott resorts where lockoffs split to deluxe and standard 1BR units, as opposed to the Studio/1BR set-up that's prevalent in the Marriott system. If the DC Points Chart allows specific booking of standard v. deluxe 1BR's, as opposed to Studio v. 1BR, is that an indicator that the 1BR/1BR-type lockoff was originally sold at a premium above the Studio/1BR-type?

I'm sure you followed the train of thought but I wanted to make the case where a simple difference of square footage, all else being equal, wouldn't automatically translate to a higher DC Points allotment, and of course I'm not at all familiar with the Vistana properties so I didn't know how the ones mentioned were originally sold by Vistana.


----------



## pchung6

JIMinNC said:


> Any idea/guess as to what percentage of Vistana owners are owners at the Mandatory resorts? In other words, how many people would be impacted by whatever decision MVW might make regarding the Mandatory weeks?



Vistana and Marriott have been trying hard to get these mandatory weeks to deedback or buyback for Flex products these days.  If I'm the management, I wouldn't worry too much as mandatory ownership will gradually fade away. Spend too much time on this is just penny wise pound foolish.  Marriott should focus on getting the new consolidated DC/VSN product attractive to gain new customers or upgrade.  Shutting down VSN will be the first misstep to piss off people.


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## SueDonJ

DannyTS said:


> Orlando is overbuilt for a reason: it attracts cohorts of stressed and excited parents carrying  2-3 kids around their necks, exquisitely marinated and ready for a timeshare presentation. Why would Marriott not want those resorts in their portfolio?



What's the total count now of Orlando timeshares that come under the MVW umbrella? Between Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt they could probably incorporate their own little town!


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## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> Any idea/guess as to what percentage of Vistana owners are owners at the Mandatory resorts? In other words, how many people would be impacted by whatever decision MVW might make regarding the Mandatory weeks?


You can add the designated units listed in the documents for each resort but, you can’t rely on that because many were now sold back for flex plans or foreclosed, unsold, etc. 

Speaking of mandatory, Vistana sales were willing to sell me a deeded week In Westin St. John two weeks ago. I assume because it is not part of the Westin flex program but they were will to “get approval” and sell me a deed for a small price of 55K.


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## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> I think that’s the beauty of being a consumer. I have the choice where my money goes. I’d purchase a resale deeded week in MVC Aruba and go through II Exchange for other resorts, or just rent and go where I want without the sticker shock price they are selling ownership for, that is all I’m saying. Marriott wouldn’t be dead to me from a usage stand point (renting)or resale ownership.



Marriott collects at least 10% of the annual MF's of every single Week across all segments as profit, and I think a little bit higher percentage from at least one of the non-US segments. Losing your direct buy-in profits wouldn't amount to much compared to the sustained profit you'd be supporting by renting from an owner, or, giving them via the purchase of an external resale.


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## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I highly doubt they will spin anything off. Now that they have conveyed all of the Vistana properties to one of their trusts, would they really want someone else managing resorts that they also own inside of the trusts? It isn't going to happen. Current customers are always your best customers. They want to be able to market to all the owners at Vistana resorts to sell them on the new trust products.


 
Nor do I, it was all just a scenario thrown out by someone earlier, I was questioning what the purpose of that would be. It didn’t make any sense to spin off or sell resorts just to keep mandatory deeds out of a DC program.


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## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> Any idea/guess as to what percentage of Vistana owners are owners at the Mandatory resorts? In other words, how many people would be impacted by whatever decision MVW might make regarding the Mandatory weeks?


I would say it is probably less than 5% own a mandatory resale. Owners at mandatory resorts are much higher since some of their big ones (Two Hawaii, Harborside, some St John Kierland and SVV). But I don't think they are concerned about impacting or disenfranchising mandatory resale owners, I think the issue is that they really can't do it. They can't remove them from the club if the club exists. So if VSN remains, there is no change for the mandatory owners. If they simply kill VSN and say DC is the new VSN, then they perhaps open up DC to the mandatory owners and any future resale buyers at those mandatory resorts. I don't think Marriott wants to do that. Of course it would probably help the resale value of my SVV weeks.


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## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> Marriott collects at least 10% of the annual MF's of every single Week across all segments as profit, and I think a little bit higher percentage from at least one of the non-US segments. Losing your direct buy-in profits wouldn't amount to much compared to the sustained profit you'd be supporting by renting from an owner, or, giving them via the purchase of an external resale.



True! I’d much rather give a rental to an owner or a cheap resale and have 55K in my pocket . Then I’ll get to go to Aruba!! I already have deeds in my other favorite resort and I don’t see them getting rid of that one anytime soon so I’m ok lol...... for now


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## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> So if VSN remains, there is no change for the mandatory owners. If they simply kill VSN and say DC is the new VSN,* then they perhaps open up DC to the mandatory owners and any future resale buyers at those mandatory resorts.* I don't think Marriott wants to do that. *Of course it would probably help the resale value of my SVV weeks.*



I’m all for that!


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## bazzap

SueDonJ said:


> Marriott collects at least 10% of the annual MF's of every single Week across all segments as profit, and I think a little bit higher percentage from at least one of the non-US segments. Losing your direct buy-in profits wouldn't amount to much compared to the sustained profit you'd be supporting by renting from an owner, or, giving them via the purchase of an external resale.


Correct, Marriott takes 15% in Management Fees at Phuket Beach Club.


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## CalGalTraveler

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think they see mandatory owners as thorns. THey see the mandatory weeks in general as thorns. If they wipe out VSN and make DC the new club, then perhaps they have opened up the DC program to allow resale weeks to get in on the cheap. The DC club could be considered the mandatory club that those mandatory weeks must be a part of. Marriott hates resales and I don't see them giving an in to the DC program through the mandatory resale weeks. Vistana shut down any new resorts being mandatory pretty early when they learned the error of their ways.



If Vistana could have gotten rid of mandatory, they would have done it long ago. The best they could do was to grandfather and rope it off with new voluntary resorts.

+1 to the point that many of the mandatory owners tend to be high end buyers with discretionary income. Why alienate your next Presidents/Chairman's level prospects? Even if the number of resales are small the buying power is high. Some resale buyers paid up to $38k in cash out of pocket (no financing) to buy a resale OF on Maui.  They also pay hefty maint fees at many of the resorts.


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## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> If Vistana could have gotten rid of mandatory, they would have done it long ago. The best they could do was to grandfather and rope it off with new voluntary resorts.


I agree. THis is why I think they will create some type of overlay that runs along side VSN. They won't eliminate VSN, just add something else that the weeks/flex owners can utilize in addition to their StarOptions.


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## sjsharkie

pchung6 said:


> Vistana and Marriott have been trying hard to get these mandatory weeks to deedback or buyback for Flex products these days.  If I'm the management, I wouldn't worry too much as mandatory ownership will gradually fade away. Spend too much time on this is just penny wise pound foolish.  Marriott should focus on getting the new consolidated DC/VSN product attractive to gain new customers or upgrade.  Shutting down VSN will be the first misstep to piss off people.


Good luck getting rid of mandatory ownership on the Vistana side.  I don't think mandatory ownership will gradually fade away -- at least not for prime seasons.

Most of the Vistana mandatory properties do not have ROFR.  Take Kierland for example which has 3 seasons -- even Gold Plus weeks have value on resale.  So the majority of that property will never pass to Marriott unless someone defaults on their dues (i.e. death, etc.) and doesn't bother to resell.  And even then, I have heard of people bidding on the foreclosure auction for plat plus intervals when they come up from time to time.  So while lesser weeks in those mandatory properties may pass to Marriott, I don't see this happening over time unless they make an effort to incentivize buyback themselves.

I do agree shutting down VSN will piss people off, especially the larger customers that may have paid full developer prices.  I can't see them doing that -- but then again, who knows.

-ryan


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## kds4

dioxide45 said:


> Lakeshore Reserve is the best example in the Marriott system as it would compare to the 2BR units within the Vistana system and most of the 2BR units in Marriott. I definitely expect them to allocate higher point allocations to Westin 2BR units than they did for Marriotts in the same areas (like Scottsdale).



Agreed. A couple of years ago we stayed in one of the 2 bedroom deluxe units at Lakeshore that locks off as two 1 bedroom units. It was very nice to have a smaller, but fully functional, kitchen on the smaller lock-off side.


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## kds4

SueDonJ said:


> Whole segments could get spun or sold off any time for a number of reasons, for example in these discussions people have mentioned that Marriott could let the Hyatt segment go if they can't resolve whatever issues appear to be insurmountable due to licensing. Under the Marriott umbrella, there have been resorts at which MVC failed to renew the management contract, and took the name off the properties, due to disputes between a large segment of the owners and Marriott as Manager. That hasn't stopped people who owned at those resorts at the time from keeping the other Marriott-branded timeshares in their portfolios, or even purchasing other Marriotts after the split. There've also been other resorts where issues came close to the point of Marriott separating itself as Manager but those issues were ultimately resolved without separation. It's business, you have to at least be aware that changes out of your control may happen.
> 
> I don't see anything right now that appears to be a predictor of Marriott selling off any Vistana-branded resorts. I get what you're saying, that if yours is and the new company doesn't change any of your usage options, you'll keep it, and I understand that a pure DC Trust Points purchase isn't what you want from Marriott. I just don't understand saying that Marriott would effectively be dead to you as a result of them selling off your resort because they're unable to keep it as is within their system. Again, it's business, and you just never know what your future needs will be or which company may best provide them.



Kevin may not be the only shark in the water.


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## dioxide45

sjsharkie said:


> Good luck getting rid of mandatory ownership on the Vistana side. I don't think mandatory ownership will gradually fade away -- at least not for prime seasons.


Really, the only two resorts that are sought after for mandatory are SVV and WKV. I think the low season weeks are being absorbed back in to the flex trusts when Vistana convinces people to trade weeks back in to buy flex points. It is happening and people are doing it. People are even trading in prime season weeks in Hawaii and elsewhere for voluntary flex. So I think over time mandatory weeks will dwindle. We are seeing now far fewer prime 2BR SVV weeks out there on the resale market and prices are up.


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## Dean

CPNY said:


> I read they can make many changes. Essentially the POS means nothing when they put a line in that anything in the POS can be changed for any reason basically. I wasn’t questioning if they can do the spin off. I was questioning in what capacity? Where would it go? For what reason? Say Sheraton Vistana villages has XX amount of owners, why would they want to get rid of XX amount of owners that they have the potential to sell to each year?
> 
> If i owned at a resort that Marriott sold because they didn’t want to deal with a mandatory deed, I would never spend a dime with Marriott again. Last thing I would do is buy points from them. As far as Orlando is concerned. There are only two phases in Vistana villages that are mandatory and all of Sheraton resorts is voluntary. So they actually have a lot of owners to sell DC too, that own voluntary deeds. But geez, now you have me thinking they are going to sell Vistana villages haha thanks a lot lol


As I said before and in response to several posts.  Marriott will not hesitate ticking people off for the greater good, they've done it before and they'll do it again.  The idea that they can't and won't is simply wrong.  And the fact that some of those would be potential buyers is not sufficient to control the entire process.  I can bet you that some will be ticked no matter what product and options come out and Marriott knows this.  Those resorts they spun off years ago came with the same discussion here on TUG.  Statements were similar to what we see on this thread.  And some of those actually bought from Marriott directly and were still left out with no options within Marriott. Whatever product comes out will be spun to entice many to buy.  Obviously they want the upset group to be a minimum but it's inevitable to happen to some degree.  

As to where they could go, it really doesn't matter.  Bluegreen, Westgate, Worldmark, Wyndham or just stand alone resorts.  I think it's extremely unlike all of those new resorts will be with the system in 5 years.


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## dioxide45

Dean said:


> As I said before and in response to several posts.  Marriott will not hesitate ticking people off for the greater good, they've done it before and they'll do it again.  The idea that they can't and won't is simply wrong.  And the fact that some of those would be potential buyers is not sufficient to control the entire process.  I can bet you that some will be ticked no matter what product and options come out and Marriott knows this.  Those resorts they spun off years ago came with the same discussion here on TUG.  Statements were similar to what we see on this thread.  And some of those actually bought from Marriott directly and were still left out with no options within Marriott. Whatever product comes out will be spun to entice many to buy.  Obviously they want the upset group to be a minimum but it's inevitable to happen to some degree.
> 
> As to where they could go, it really doesn't matter.  Bluegreen, Westgate, Worldmark, Wyndham or just stand alone resorts.  I think it's extremely unlike all of those new resorts will be with the system in 5 years.


From a rough count, not including WSJ mandatory units, it looks like about 25% of all Vistana units are at a mandatory resort. That is pretty significant. They certainly wouldn't sell off management rights at all of them. I still find it doubtful that they would sell any of them and just live with mandatory weeks. They will find other ways to marginalize them in any new integrated system. The main inhibitor to all of these resorts is that they all have significant number of weeks conveyed to the flex trusts, with the exception of Harborside and the one phase at WSJ. Very few of the mandatory units are at those two resorts. If they were to sell management rights at SVV Bella and Key west to Bluegreen in your example, you would have Bluegreen owners using the same facilities as Marriott/Sheraton owners who booked in to those units that the trust owns. I am not saying there is anything wrong with Bluegreen owners, it is just that Marriott is offering a premium product and selling exclusivity. Will their ownership base really like that? 

It is possible that they get rid of WSJ and Harborside since those are still outside the trusts, but those are probably the two resorts most current Marriott owners would want to book in to within the Vistana system. So those probably won't go anywhere. I find it highly likely that in five years all of those five mandatory resorts are still with Marriott/Vistana and owners will still be able to book the just fine.


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## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> From a rough count, not including WSJ mandatory units, it looks like about 25% of all Vistana units are at a mandatory resort. That is pretty significant. They certainly wouldn't sell off management rights at all of them. I still find it doubtful that they would sell any of them and just live with mandatory weeks. They will find other ways to marginalize them in any new integrated system. The main inhibitor to all of these resorts is that they all have significant number of weeks conveyed to the flex trusts, with the exception of Harborside and the one phase at WSJ. Very few of the mandatory units are at those two resorts. If they were to sell management rights at SVV Bella and Key west to Bluegreen in your example, you would have Bluegreen owners using the same facilities as Marriott/Sheraton owners who booked in to those units that the trust owns. I am not saying there is anything wrong with Bluegreen owners, it is just that Marriott is offering a premium product and selling exclusivity. Will their ownership base really like that?
> 
> It is possible that they get rid of WSJ and Harborside since those are still outside the trusts, but those are probably the two resorts most current Marriott owners would want to book in to within the Vistana system. So those probably won't go anywhere. I find it highly likely that in five years all of those five mandatory resorts are still with Marriott/Vistana and owners will still be able to book the just fine.


Agreed. I can’t see them getting rid of harborside or WSJ. If they did, I’d go where they are. Those are the resorts I have most interest in. In the meanwhile, I’m going to snag more mandatory deeds. If the maint fees weren’t almost 2,000 for a one bedroom I’d get another harborside resort.


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## pchung6

Dean said:


> As I said before and in response to several posts.  Marriott will not hesitate ticking people off for the greater good, they've done it before and they'll do it again.  The idea that they can't and won't is simply wrong.  And the fact that some of those would be potential buyers is not sufficient to control the entire process.  I can bet you that some will be ticked no matter what product and options come out and Marriott knows this.  Those resorts they spun off years ago came with the same discussion here on TUG.  Statements were similar to what we see on this thread.  And some of those actually bought from Marriott directly and were still left out with no options within Marriott. Whatever product comes out will be spun to entice many to buy.  Obviously they want the upset group to be a minimum but it's inevitable to happen to some degree.
> 
> As to where they could go, it really doesn't matter.  Bluegreen, Westgate, Worldmark, Wyndham or just stand alone resorts.  I think it's extremely unlike all of those new resorts will be with the system in 5 years.



Do you wanna bet Marriott will want to keep Westin St John, Harborside, Westin Kierland and Westin Maui no matter what?  I can see the slightly higher possibility Marriott let Bella and Key West go because of mandatory.  Isn't a lot of these SVV deeds already within Sheraton flex?


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## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> Do you wanna bet Marriott will want to keep Westin St John, Harborside, Westin Kierland and Westin Maui no matter what?  I can see the slightly higher possibility Marriott let Bella and Key West go because of mandatory.  Isn't a lot of these SVV deeds already within Sheraton flex?



To @dioxide45 point. They wouldn’t let two phases go. Realistically they would have to let the whole resort go, or you will have two systems in the same resort? Are they going to let a resort go because of a few mandatory deeds? I think they have been successful in buying back SVV deeds and selling into flex as you said. Many people are not familiar with mandatory deeds. If they purchased in Orlando years ago in key west or Bella and haven’t purchased resale they probably have no clue what they actually own. I don’t see them cutting any resorts loose in 5 years.


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## chemteach

kds4 said:


> Agreed. A couple of years ago we stayed in one of the 2 bedroom deluxe units at Lakeshore that locks off as two 1 bedroom units. It was very nice to have a smaller, but fully functional, kitchen on the smaller lock-off side.


The Marriott Shadow Ridge 2 bedroom Deluxe units lock off into 2 one bedroom fully functional units.  They are worth a bit more in DC points than a MSR 2 bedroom that locks off into a studio and a 1 bedroom unit.


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## sjsharkie

dioxide45 said:


> Really, the only two resorts that are sought after for mandatory are SVV and WKV. I think the low season weeks are being absorbed back in to the flex trusts when Vistana convinces people to trade weeks back in to buy flex points. It is happening and people are doing it.


This we agree on.  As I said, low season weeks will likely go back to the developer.



dioxide45 said:


> People are even trading in prime season weeks in Hawaii and elsewhere for voluntary flex. So I think over time mandatory weeks will dwindle. We are seeing now far fewer prime 2BR SVV weeks out there on the resale market and prices are up.


This I don't believe -- where are you getting this information from?  For Hawaii -- yes; maybe from trade-ins but also because there is ROFR for the Hawaii properties so Marriott can always substitute for the seller.  But I was talking about WKV prime weeks specifically -- there is no ROFR there and I'd be surprised if you are seeing a large number of weeks transferred to the flex trusts.  People would be trading a prime week at WKV with lower maintenance fees for a flex product; you might dupe a few people, but I don't think many would bite.

The only mechanism Marriott has for non-ROFR properties is a buyback program where they will pay more than resale (which is possible) but not as foolproof as their ROFR process.  (Or changing WKV to ROFR which I don't see how this is possible unless the deed is sold directly from them and new terms are put in place -- but I see there is another thread on this.)


----------



## Dean

pchung6 said:


> Do you wanna bet Marriott will want to keep Westin St John, Harborside, Westin Kierland and Westin Maui no matter what?  I can see the slightly higher possibility Marriott let Bella and Key West go because of mandatory.  Isn't a lot of these SVV deeds already within Sheraton flex?


It's not a bet and I'm not saying they will get rid of specific resorts, there were lots of resorts in the acquisition.  But I am saying they have options and that it's unlikely they will keep ALL resorts long term.  But I'd also say that they will not look at one or 2 resorts as absolutes, event or those if they saw they were more trouble than they were worth, they could move them on.  And I suspect they have more options contractually than is being laid out here.  It all depends on the money to be made and the hassle factor keeping within the letter of the contracts.


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## dougp26364

Keep in mind that nearly ALL of the speculation over what MVC would do with the introduction of their Destination Club was not only wrong, but was way off the mark. They have their own agenda which doesn’t always match up with the owners agenda. Their agenda is more sales. Owners agenda is better vacations. Some will be happy, some will be ticked off. From the last experience I learned to moderate my expectations while I hope for the best.

Initially I was VERY dissatisfied with how MVC designed the destination club. All these years later I’ve learned, with the help of TUG, how to manipulate it to my advantage. We didn’t jump at their initial offer to sell us more points at the “unheard of low price of $9 something per point”. It didn’t fit our needs at the time. I only enrolled our weeks to protect our options. At the time I had no intention of ever using the product. To say I was pissed off about their offering would be an understatement.

All these years later, as multiple things have changed both in our lives and timesharing in general, we’ve made changes. We got rid of our Diamond Resort ownership and waited. Eventually MVC made us an offer of a hybrid package with an average cost per point of < $8/point. A better offer than what I recall their initial “you’ll never buy in any cheaper” offer. We’ve also learned how to manipulate or use our ownership to our advantage as things have changed. One of those changes has been the ever increasing cost of exchanges outside of internal programs and a noticeable dwindling ability to get acceptable instant exchanges. Some of this has been MVC’s changes and some driven by the state of timesharing in general. Changes like systems being developed whereby management companies control their inventory tighter, trying to force people to buy into their systems because its more difficult to exchange in. The principle of exclusivity or, if you want to stay with us you need to own with us.

Don’t believe what they tell you when the program is laid out as far as the NEED to buy more into the ownership. Initially I recall sales saying post DC resale weeks would NEVER be allowed into the DC. Once the initial sales push fizzled out, suddenly we could bring in resale weeks for a price (buy equivalent trust interests or something like that). Marriott will even SELL you a “qualified” resale week with a qualifying trust interest purchase, often less expensive than their original sales price.

As to MVC dropping or splitting resorts up. If memory serves me correctly, they had a disagreement with the Vail HOA’s over refurbishments and they spilt this resort, keeping some buildings and taking their name off others. They also threatened to take their name off Beach Place Towers when the HOA was challenging them over refurbishment costs and timelines. If we go way back, I think there are some HHI resorts that use to have the Marriott name that have been dropped, but I’m not certain about that one. Don’t discount MVC’s ability to “rearrange” resorts regardless of how owners feel about it.

I wish they’d role the program out. I know changes are coming and I hate not knowing. Because we plan our trips greater than a year out, it affects what we might want to do. I think I’m a little less anxious because the resorts we’re interested in are Hyatt’s and everything I’ve heard is they’ll be the last to be integrated. By then TUGGER’s will have had a chance to digest and pick the program apart.


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## pchung6

Dean said:


> It's not a bet and I'm not saying they will get rid of specific resorts, there were lots of resorts in the acquisition.  But I am saying they have options and that it's unlikely they will keep ALL resorts long term.  But I'd also say that they will not look at one or 2 resorts as absolutes, event or those if they saw they were more trouble than they were worth, they could move them on.  And I suspect they have more options contractually than is being laid out here.  It all depends on the money to be made and the hassle factor keeping within the letter of the contracts.



Marriott definitely has a lot options. How about this option for you? Marriott will spin off VIstana and leave VSN alone, and at the same time, MVC will sell itself to Diamond Resorts to provide MVC owners opportunity to go to 200 additional locations. I think you like this?


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## SueDonJ

dougp26364 said:


> ... Initially I was VERY dissatisfied with how MVC designed the destination club. All there years later I’ve learned, with the help of TUG, how to manipulate it to my advantage.



I'd say more people reacted to the DC rollout with an initial intense dislike/distrust than with relief/satisfaction. Very VERY few, you could probably count them on your hands and maybe one foot, genuinely liked it, were grateful it fit their ownerships and travel styles, and dived in right at the outset.

Some of that is just the nature of change, people don't react well to change. Some of it because it's not a system that marries well with some existing Weeks, i.e. those with lesser demand that had been picked up for a song on the external market primarily as II up-traders (which type of ownership, naturally, TUGgers love!) A great deal of the initial negativity, though, was Marriott's fault, and it could have been avoided if they'd rolled it out with user-friendly literature and staffed the phones with competent up-to-speed customer service reps. [Spoiler Alert: they didn't do that.] Overnight on 6/20/10 they just dropped the pages and pages and pages of legal docs, changed the interface in the owners' website, and tried a targeted simple, "Welcome!" email blast that appeared to miss more owners than hit. Hopefully, they learned a lesson and Vistana/Hyatt owners won't be subject to the same debacle.



dougp26364 said:


> Don’t believe what they tell you when the program is laid out as far as the NEED to buy more into the ownership. Initially I recall sales saying post DC resale weeks would NEVER be allowed into the DC. Once the initial sales push fizzled out, suddenly we could bring in resale weeks for a price (buy equivalent trust interests or something like that). Marriott will even SELL you a “qualified” resale week with a qualifying trust interest purchase, often less expensive than their original sales price. ...



Also, don't believe what anybody tells you when they say that you won't be able to use any future Marriott acquisitions if you don't buy DC Trust Points. The docs are set up so that could happen, but it hasn't yet. Since the DC inception every single new resort that they've brought online has been immediately made available through the DC Exchange Company via Trust AND Exchange Points, as well as having intervals deposited in II for Weeks exchanges.

A caveat here, there are some resort-specific restrictions based on DC status tiers. But again, none that use Trust v Exchange Points as a qualifier.  If it happens in the future, fine, revisit your ownership then. But don't let anybody send you into a panic that it's a foregone conclusion.



dougp26364 said:


> As to MVC dropping or splitting resorts up. If memory serves me correctly, they had a disagreement with the Vail HOA’s over refurbishments and they spilt this resort, keeping some buildings and taking their name off others. They also threatened to take their name off Beach Place Towers when the HOA was challenging them over refurbishment costs and timelines. If we go way back, I think there are some HHI resorts that use to have the Marriott name that have been dropped, but I’m not certain about that one. Don’t discount MVC’s ability to “rearrange” resorts regardless of how owners feel about it. ...



At Vail two of the five buildings lost the Marriott affiliation, the other three remain with the name on the door. It sounds odd, that a resort could be broken up that way, but it was and the owners who stayed with Marriott don't report any lasting negative effects.

At BeachPlace, at the same time that the brouhaha over refurb costs was happening, some owners were so completely indifferent that they were in danger of not reaching the required quorum for the Annual Meeting. According to the governing docs Marriott would have no choice but to reschedule it which would incur another whole set of related costs to be assumed by the ownership, so they had to send out notices to owners begging for their proxies. [The lesson here, ALWAYS vote your Annual Meeting proxy!] It's been several years since all that and it appears everything is stabilized now.

At Hilton Head, Swallowtail and Spicebush are the two resorts that used to be Marriotts. That affiliation ended a long time ago but the resorts are still there and still making their owners very happy. I don't know which of the management companies they're using now or if they've remained completely independent.


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## JIMinNC

pchung6 said:


> Marriott definitely has a lot options. How about this option for you? Marriott will spin off VIstana and leave VSN alone, and at the same time, MVC will sell itself to Diamond Resorts to provide MVC owners opportunity to go to 200 additional locations. I think you like this?



HaHa...if Diamond ever got involved I think you would see owners exiting in droves. I know we would. We had a few years under Diamond after they bought Sunterra (which wasn’t that great either); never again. We sold in 2014 to buy MVC. Marriott and Westin owners would be underwhelmed by those “200 additional locations.”


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## dougp26364

pchung6 said:


> Marriott definitely has a lot options. How about this option for you? Marriott will spin off VIstana and leave VSN alone, and at the same time, MVC will sell itself to Diamond Resorts to provide MVC owners opportunity to go to 200 additional locations. I think you like this?


.

Here’s an interesting tidbit for you. Marriott’s Grand Chateau was initially a Diamond Resorts project. Stephen J Cloobeck had decided to exit timeshare development and management at the time and sold the branding rights to Marriott but remained a silent partner via an agreement deemed Hard Carbon. Marriott sales finished selling out The Villas at Polo Towers and, for a little while, it was rumored Polo Towers would be rebranded as a Marriott property.

When SJC got back into timeshare management via the purchase of Sunterra, I would not have been surprised if he was trying to leverage a way to obtain control of Marriott via some back door through that silent partnership. So what you propose might have actually happened several years ago.

There are always a LOT of moving pieces most of us never see or hear about. 10 years ago, who would have guessed we’d be at the point we’ve reached today? What mother Marriott will do is anyone’s guess......but it’s just a guess. At this point there’s absolutely no need to get defensive or cranky about what they may, or may not, do. Owners, unfortunately, are just along for the ride.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

dougp26364 said:


> .
> 
> Here’s an interesting tidbit for you. Marriott’s Grand Chateau was initially a Diamond Resorts project. Stephen J Cloobeck had decided to exit timeshare development and management at the time and sold the branding rights to Marriott but remained a silent partner via an agreement deemed Hard Carbon. Marriott sales finished selling out The Villas at Polo Towers and, for a little while, it was rumored Polo Towers would be rebranded as a Marriott property.
> 
> When SJC got back into timeshare management via the purchase of Sunterra, I would not have been surprised if he was trying to leverage a way to obtain control of Marriott via some back door through that silent partnership. So what you propose might have actually happened several years ago.
> 
> There are always a LOT of moving pieces most of us never see or hear about. 10 years ago, who would have guessed we’d be at the point we’ve reached today? What mother Marriott will do is anyone’s guess......but it’s just a guess. At this point there’s absolutely no need to get defensive or cranky about what they may, or may not, do. Owners, unfortunately, are just along for the ride.






Interesting trivia;  and I remember thinking specifically of my distaste for Polo Towers.   I remember the top floor bar overlooking the strip, the pool on the roof, the dark/stuffy parking garage in the basement, and the sales model that Marriott built in the back yard to show folks what the new Grande Chateau units would look like....

Would never stay at Polo again, but wouldn't mind staying at the Chateau next time I visit Vegas.





.


----------



## CPNY

dougp26364 said:


> .
> *Owners, unfortunately, are just along for the ride.*



That pretty much sums it up. We are along for the ride!! Pay your fees, go on vacation and enjoy life.


----------



## controller1

CPNY said:


> That pretty much sums it up. We are along for the ride!! Pay your fees, go on vacation and enjoy life.



And with that, let's all stop predicting what the ride will be and wait to see what actually happens.  IMHO worry is such wasted energy.


----------



## Ken555

dougp26364 said:


> There are always a LOT of moving pieces most of us never see or hear about. 10 years ago, who would have guessed we’d be at the point we’ve reached today?



We had threads and discussions ~10+ years ago about a possible merger of SVN and Marriott. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SteelerGal

Agree to keep on keepin on.  I hope we hear something soon however it’s not going to change our vacation plans.  
It did affect our decision not to buy DSVII.  Instead I’ve ready this thread and others regarding the DC program; Incase it does open for our non mandatory.  If not, they were purchased for vacations.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

dougp26364 said:


> Keep in mind that nearly ALL of the speculation over what MVC would do with the introduction of their Destination Club was not only wrong, but was way off the mark. They have their own agenda which doesn’t always match up with the owners agenda. Their agenda is more sales. Owners agenda is better vacations. Some will be happy, some will be ticked off. From the last experience I learned to moderate my expectations while I hope for the best.



Exactly.

re: VSN points and Mandatory: Although MVC owners may feel such trades are unfair, why should MVC care about many of these issues e.g. Desert equal to Maui points in VSN, mandatory in a grandfathered VSN program. *These are only points and MVC gets their maintenance fees from the owners at each property no matter what - who cares how people apply their points - cash drives their decisions. *

For the reasons and legal complications discussed previously, I see no reason why they would eliminate VSN currently. There will always be loopholes and arbitrage in any program.  They will attempt to fix in an DC overlay which will drive some arbitrage to stay in VSN short term. Over time they can use carrots, and ROFR to transfer these properties to a new program, but it will happen over many many years. If they want to eliminate mandatory, they could easily ROFR many of the properties. Much less cost, hassle than upset customers and lawsuits.

re: Spinoffs. They will review the entire portfolio (not just VSN - MVC, VSN, Hyatt) and if some properties are not contributing to profitability, then those will either be targeted for turnaround or will be spun-off because they are dragging down earnings. It sounds like they may have too many properties in Orlando, so this may be an area for them to evaluate, but I wouldn't limit it to mandatory which IMO is not a sufficient reason. It will be a business decision for the entire Orlando portfolio, and we may see an older, less profitable MVC property get tossed.


----------



## DannyTS

I think I gave the example before.


CalGalTraveler said:


> Exactly.
> 
> re: Spinoffs. They will review the entire portfolio (not just VSN - MVC, VSN, Hyatt) and if some properties are not contributing to profitability, then those will either be targeted for turnaround or will be spun-off because they are dragging down earnings. It sounds like they may have too many properties in Orlando, so this may be an area for them to evaluate, but I wouldn't limit it to mandatory which IMO is not a sufficient reason. It will be a business decision for the entire Orlando portfolio, and we may see an older, less profitable MVC property get tossed.


How easy is to spin off resorts in a network? If you own resort A and the sale was predicated on the ability to book any resort in the system, how does the developer explain the owners that they are now on their own? I am not saying it is completely impossible but it creates all kind of problems. Not to mention, many Vistana owners own multiple resorts. How many upset owners at the remaining resorts in the system?

Moreover, are there any unprofitable resorts in the system? Whether the owners go there, deposit for exchanges, rent out or whatever, they still have to pay the maintenance fees and the developer gets a cut. I think that the owners see the resorts too much from the prospective of how difficult is to reserve or to trade there, not so sure the developers see them the exact same way.


----------



## pchung6

CalGalTraveler said:


> Exactly.
> 
> re: VSN points and Mandatory: Although MVC owners may feel such trades are unfair, why should MVC care about many of these issues e.g. Desert equal to Maui points in VSN, mandatory in a grandfathered VSN program. *These are only points and MVC gets their maintenance fees from the owners at each property no matter what - who cares how people apply their points - cash drives their decisions. *



It is not just mandatory issue.  How about these bought SDO or SMV or Sheraton Steamboat resale and retro later on?  These resorts have even lower MF than WKV or SVV and have equally Maui points?  They can completely change SVN points chart but will only piss people off. I see Marriott might try to reprice points at DC, but it will possible just open up another arbitrage loophole in DC.

I see the only viable solution is to create a cross platform exchange and keep Marriott Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club and Hyatt Vacation Club all separated with no change to existing system for good or bad.  If you want go somewhere out of your system, just pay up.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

DannyTS said:


> I think I gave the example before.
> 
> How easy is to spin off resorts in a network? If you own resort A and the sale was predicated on the ability to book any resort in the system, how does the developer explain the owners that they are now on their own? I am not saying it is completely impossible but it creates all kind of problems. Not to mention, many Vistana owners own multiple resorts. How many upset owners at the remaining resorts in the system?
> 
> Moreover, are there any unprofitable resorts in the system? Whether the owners go there, deposit for exchanges, rent out or whatever, they still have to pay the maintenance fees and the developer gets a cut. I think that the owners see the resorts too much from the prospective of how difficult is to reserve or to trade there, not so sure the developers see them the exact same way.



According to earlier posts and other Tug threads spin-offs have been done; just look at how VSN was acquired by MVC. The only rights that you have are at your deeded property so they can change the program at any time. No VSN HOA voted on the MVC acquisition.

Some properties have more defaults than others, or have less margin on maint fees due to excessive expense to upkeep (land rent, taxes, ability to increase maint fees, capital repair, regulatory compliance).  I am certain that they would have a spreadsheet with each property ranked in order of profitability.


----------



## DannyTS

CalGalTraveler said:


> According to earlier posts and other Tug threads spin-offs have been done. The only rights that you have are at your deeded property so they can change the program at any time.
> 
> Some properties have more defaults than others, or have less margin on maint fees due to excessive expense to upkeep (land rent, taxes, ability to increase maint fees, capital repair).  I am certain that they would have a spreadsheet with each property ranked in order of profitability.



I do not think that the defaults are alarming at any Vistana property, at least judging by the maintenance fees. And if they are at decent levels, why would the developer care much about defaults? Aren't the arrears shouldered by the rest of the owners? I am not even sure they do not actually rent those weeks while the rest of the owners pay for the maintenance fees


----------



## pchung6

I think these most of non performing resorts deeds are foreclosured and dumped into Flex.  I remember last time I checked, Sheraton Flex has a lot of low season deeds coupled with few good season deeds.  Same goes to Westin Flex with all low season 120 degree Palm Springs deeds with only very few Maui or Kauai for VSN marketing needs.


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## CalGalTraveler

MVC will be re-evaluating the entire team. Not just VSN. Whatever makes Wall St. happy.


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## DannyTS

and specifically about Sheraton V


pchung6 said:


> I think these most of non performing resorts deeds are foreclosured and dumped into Flex.  I remember last time I checked, Sheraton Flex has a lot of low season deeds coupled with few and significantly less high season deeds.  Same goes to Westin Flex with all low season Palm Springs deeds with only very few Maui or Kauai for VSN marketing needed.


The existence of the Flex programs probably makes it even more difficult to spin off resorts: what are you going to do with the trusts and with the owners of those trusts?


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## CalGalTraveler

These are not easy problems and will not be solved in the short term; they are nagging issues but not on fire.

I don't expect any action in the first pass other than to get a revenue generating program in place to gain upsell/cross-sell. I would expect this to be their highest priority because Wall St. will only give them a limited amount of time to monetize the acquisition and reduce cost through consolidation.


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## Ken555

Let's not forget there are many ways Marriott is able benefit by having additional resorts, even if they aren't in the same points program. Typical corporate consolidation benefits for their bottom line... It's not all about the product and sales opportunities.


----------



## SMB1

CPNY said:


> Hearsay that there was a promo running in the summer but they could have been referencing the promo you say expired July 7th. It’s prob expired and they weren’t aware.



I think they can pretty much do this whenever they want. I was at a presentation several months after I purchased a resale oceanwatch week. Going in it was my intention to buy points and enroll the resale week if they could get the price per point to a reasonable number. They were not offering a promotion at the time. When  I told him what I wanted to do and he knew he didn’t have to “hard sell” it was all about getting it done. He asked how I knew about the expired promotion and quickly answered for me that I received an email promoting it. I caught on and agreed. Then he said I see this is your first presentation since that time so since you didn’t have the opportunity to takes advantage I will still honor it. Price per point was reasonable and I essentially did my own little hybrid bundle.


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## CalGalTraveler

Providing more incentive, we are in a positive economic cycle. If they take too long to introduce the program, they may find it coming to market during an economic downturn with people shutting their discretionary wallets no matter how attractive the program.

As the saying goes,"Tell me how they are measured and I will tell you how they will act."


----------



## SteelerGal

I doubt Sheraton will go away.  We know from the last earnings call, they made changes to right the ship.  Plus Sheratons are an entry point for new buyers.  Reasonably priced.  MVC needs an entry point similarly to Wyndham/WorldMark.  Yes, we may not like their quality however I know personally more Wyndham owners than Westin/Marriott/Hyatt.
Consolidating the backroom and correcting financing programs were of most importance.  Now that they have reviewed the various programs, I am sure MVC already has the “overlay” program developed and making the final touches in regards to marketing.  I am sure it will be announced 1st qtr right when MFs are due.


----------



## JIMinNC

DannyTS said:


> I think I gave the example before.
> 
> How easy is to spin off resorts in a network? If you own resort A and the sale was predicated on the ability to book any resort in the system, how does the developer explain the owners that they are now on their own? I am not saying it is completely impossible but it creates all kind of problems. Not to mention, many Vistana owners own multiple resorts. How many upset owners at the remaining resorts in the system?



As I said in another post way back in this thread, not only is it very possible, it happened to me after Hilton bought Embassy Suites and decided not to retain the Embassy Vacation Resort timeshare brand. Three of the five EVR resorts were developed by Sunterra and the other two by Vistana (pre-Starwood). Ours was a Sunterra so we kept access to the two other Sunterras, but lost access to the two Vistana's (which became Sheraton Broadway Plantation and Sheraton Desert Oasis).

*EDIT:* I just remembered there was a fourth Sunterra EVR in Lake Tahoe, so six total, including the two Vistanas. The Vistana owners at SBP and SDO lost access to the Sunterra locations in Maui, Kauai, Orlando, and Lake Tahoe.


----------



## JIMinNC

CalGalTraveler said:


> Some properties have more defaults than others, or have less margin on maint fees due to excessive expense to upkeep (land rent, taxes, ability to increase maint fees, capital repair, regulatory compliance).  I am certain that they would have a spreadsheet with each property ranked in order of profitability.



I don't know how the VSE resorts work, but at MVC resorts, what Marriott gets as program manager is just their management fee. All of the other expenses that they collect for are straight pass throughs of expenses incurred by the HOA. In MVC, that management fee is set as a fixed percentage of expenses (maybe 10%?- I can't recall the exact percentage). So it's basically a cost-plus arrangement. Whether the HOA is cost efficient or not, Marriott gets their same percentage. They actually get *more* if expenses are higher. So each property's operation earns the same percentage profit margin.

Where the properties *do* differ is in the performance of their sales rooms. I would expect a property with a low-performing sales operation would be more in jeopardy of jettison than one with high operating expenses.


----------



## DannyTS

SteelerGal said:


> I doubt Sheraton will go away.  We know from the last earnings call, they made changes to right the ship.  Plus Sheratons are an entry point for new buyers.  Reasonably priced.  MVC needs an entry point similarly to Wyndham/WorldMark.  Yes, we may not like their quality however I know personally more Wyndham owners than Westin/Marriott/Hyatt.



Not to mention Wyndham has a market cap of 6 billion dollars vs Marriott Vacation Worlwide just 4.4 billion. 
@CalGalTraveler Yes, there have been spin-offs in the past but I think the name of the game in the industry is consolidation . The way i see it,  MVC owns over 100 resorts now. A 2% average default rate plus some cheap buybacks mean they get the equivalent of 2-3 resorts every year without putting a shovel in the ground. This is a great business, you want to own as many resorts as possible not less.


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## CalGalTraveler

.


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## Dean

pchung6 said:


> Marriott definitely has a lot options. How about this option for you? Marriott will spin off VIstana and leave VSN alone, and at the same time, MVC will sell itself to Diamond Resorts to provide MVC owners opportunity to go to 200 additional locations. I think you like this?


I know this is tongue in cheek but I could see VSN being spun off with the same issues in another system.  VRI is likely more at risk though.  Don't kid yourself that everything will remain the same, it almost certainly won't and likely wouldn't have without the acquisition.  



SueDonJ said:


> At Vail two of the five buildings lost the Marriott affiliation, the other three remain with the name on the door. It sounds odd, that a resort could be broken up that way, but it was and the owners who stayed with Marriott don't report any lasting negative effects.
> 
> At BeachPlace, at the same time that the brouhaha over refurb costs was happening, some owners were so completely indifferent that they were in danger of not reaching the required quorum for the Annual Meeting. According to the governing docs Marriott would have no choice but to reschedule it which would incur another whole set of related costs to be assumed by the ownership, so they had to send out notices to owners begging for their proxies. [The lesson here, ALWAYS vote your Annual Meeting proxy!] It's been several years since all that and it appears everything is stabilized now.
> 
> At Hilton Head, Swallowtail and Spicebush are the two resorts that used to be Marriotts. That affiliation ended a long time ago but the resorts are still there and still making their owners very happy. I don't know which of the management companies they're using now or if they've remained completely independent.


Add to that the Saturday Villas and Longboat Bay Club.  I know many bought Spicebush and swallowtail directly from the Marriott resale department with the intent of using them for trading, I almost did.  Also that HP came close to exiting as well.


----------



## pchung6

Dean said:


> I know this is tongue in cheek but I could see VSN being spun off with the same issues in another system.  VRI is likely more at risk though.  Don't kid yourself that everything will remain the same, it almost certainly won't and likely wouldn't have without the acquisition.
> 
> Add to that the Saturday Villas and Longboat Bay Club.  I know many bought Spicebush and swallowtail directly from the Marriott resale department with the intent of using them for trading, I almost did.  Also that HP came close to exiting as well.



We've been debating this topic for a while, but the true answer is who knows. Don't sound so jealous of what we are getting from SVN mandatory, things will change ok? I just enjoy the ride while I can until this really happens.  Just my last thought before I stop, if you are talking about spin off, i suspect these might first be few ran down Orlando resorts in DC instead of a very well managed SVV. Don't even think about Westin, Marriott wants these, ALL OF THEM, I promise Westin is just better.


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## Dean

pchung6 said:


> We've been debating this topic for a while, but the true answer is who knows. Don't sound so jealous of what we are getting from SVN mandatory, things will change ok? I just enjoy the ride while I can until this really happens.  Just my last thought before I stop, if you are talking about spin off, i suspect these might first be few ran down Orlando resorts in DC instead of a very well managed SVV. Don't even think about Westin, Marriott wants these, ALL OF THEM, I promise Westin is just better.


True none of us know but all options are on the table including the spin off of some of the Marriotts.  But don't kid yourself that there are any new resorts that are absolute though obviously some are more at risk than others.  For Hyatt's & Vistana (Sheraton), I think the risk are more to what changes will happen over time than being sold off.  And I could see a few Marriott's at risk as well.  I've been to several Westin's, stayed at a couple including Maui, not better than most Marriott's but very nice and in an inferior location IMO.


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## TheTimeTraveler

Folks;  Please keep in mind that it was in either 2006 or 2007 that Marriott began their work on establishing the Destination Club Points program, and it wasn't actually rolled out until June of 2010 (some 3 or 4 years later).

With that said, anticipated changes due to the merge may not actually occur until later than one may think....





.


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## controller1

TheTimeTraveler said:


> Folks;  Please keep in mind that it was in either 2006 or 2007 that Marriott began their work on establishing the Destination Club Points program, and it wasn't actually rolled out until June of 2010 (some 3 or 4 years later).
> 
> With that said, anticipated changes due to the merge may not actually occur until later than one may think....
> 
> .




OMG, if this speculation thread continues for another 3 or 4 years.................


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## Ken555

These tit for tat comments about Marriott vs Vistana is getting very tiring.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dougp26364

SteelerGal said:


> I doubt Sheraton will go away.  We know from the last earnings call, they made changes to right the ship.  Plus Sheratons are an entry point for new buyers.  Reasonably priced.  MVC needs an entry point similarly to Wyndham/WorldMark.  Yes, we may not like their quality however I know personally more Wyndham owners than Westin/Marriott/Hyatt.
> Consolidating the backroom and correcting financing programs were of most importance.  Now that they have reviewed the various programs, I am sure MVC already has the “overlay” program developed and making the final touches in regards to marketing.  I am sure it will be announced 1st qtr right when MFs are due.



Maybe, maybe not

Marriott stuck their toe into the entry level pool when they attempted to developer their Horizons  brand. There were two resorts started and later abandoned in Orlando and Branson. They had land in Gatlinburg but later sold it before breaking ground. They’ve since renamed those resorts and rebranded them as Marriott. The property in Branson was suppose to be rather extensive. As it sits now there are only three buildings and as far as I can tell they have no intention of adding more. The sales office in Branson has been closed down for a long time now.


----------



## Dean

dougp26364 said:


> Maybe, maybe not
> 
> Marriott stuck their toe into the entry level pool when they attempted to developer their Horizons  brand. There were two resorts started and later abandoned in Orlando and Branson. They had land in Gatlinburg but later sold it before breaking ground. They’ve since renamed those resorts and rebranded them as Marriott. The property in Branson was suppose to be rather extensive. As it sits now there are only three buildings and as far as I can tell they have no intention of adding more. The sales office in Branson has been closed down for a long time now.


Plus a fourth announced but not developed, ? MB. 


controller1 said:


> OMG, if this speculation thread continues for another 3 or 4 years.................


It could be fun.  Based on what I'm hearing I don't expect it to be that long before we have something specific to discuss but I do suspect things will change over a few years.  And thinking back to the thread's leading up to to and/or at the time of big events like the Horizon's resorts being incorporated into the MVC, the resorts that were dumped and the DC itself, those were quite interesting and entertaining as well.  Clearly some are taking this way too seriously at this point, it'll be interesting to see the posts in 6-9 months when there may be more to discuss.  I remember some saying that no way would Marriott drop XYZ resort but yet they did.


----------



## kds4

dougp26364 said:


> Maybe, maybe not
> 
> Marriott stuck their toe into the entry level pool when they attempted to developer their Horizons  brand. There were two resorts started and later abandoned in Orlando and Branson. They had land in Gatlinburg but later sold it before breaking ground. They’ve since renamed those resorts and rebranded them as Marriott. The property in Branson was suppose to be rather extensive. As it sits now there are only three buildings and as far as I can tell they have no intention of adding more. The sales office in Branson has been closed down for a long time now.



True. Another factor is Marriott's decision not to fully develop other currently in operation resorts. I believe both Harbor Lake and Lakeshore Reserve have construction options for additional buildings that will not be utilized. I seem to recall hearing recently that a decision was made to sell off the excess Harbor Lake property rather than develop it (and I think I heard something similar to this regarding Lakeshore a bit farther in the past)?


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

kds4 said:


> True. Another factor is Marriott's decision not to fully develop other currently in operation resorts. I believe both Harbor Lake and Lakeshore Reserve have construction options for additional buildings that will not be utilized. I seem to recall hearing recently that a decision was made to sell off the excess Harbor Lake property rather than develop it (and I think I heard something similar to this regarding Lakeshore a bit farther in the past)?





Marriott's Fairway Villas Resort in New Jersey still has land available for some additional buildings but I doubt it will ever be developed (especially since almost every state in the Country now has legalized gambling).   People can go to many other areas now instead if they want to use slot machines.

Marriott BeachPlace did have another plot of land to build a second tower, but those plans went down the tubes and that land was sold off.   Good thing too as the parking garage is a horror show!





.


----------



## JIMinNC

dougp26364 said:


> Maybe, maybe not
> 
> Marriott stuck their toe into the entry level pool when they attempted to developer their Horizons  brand. There were two resorts started and later abandoned in Orlando and Branson. They had land in Gatlinburg but later sold it before breaking ground. They’ve since renamed those resorts and rebranded them as Marriott. The property in Branson was suppose to be rather extensive. As it sits now there are only three buildings and as far as I can tell they have no intention of adding more. The sales office in Branson has been closed down for a long time now.



If they closed the sales office, I think that's a Marriott that could be at risk in any kind of "right-sizing" of the portfolio. Doesn't seem to fit with the other resorts. Closing the sales office would seem to mean they don't see adequate ROI from the prospects they got at that location.


----------



## dioxide45

controller1 said:


> And with that, let's all stop predicting what the ride will be and wait to see what actually happens.  IMHO worry is such wasted energy.


Then TUG should just close up shop. If all we did was post about verifiable facts, there would be far fewer threads around here.



TheTimeTraveler said:


> Folks;  Please keep in mind that it was in either 2006 or 2007 that Marriott began their work on establishing the Destination Club Points program, and it wasn't actually rolled out until June of 2010 (some 3 or 4 years later).
> 
> With that said, anticipated changes due to the merge may not actually occur until later than one may think....


I think the difference this time is that Marriott now has an established points system and should have a much better idea of how they want to integrate the programs than when they started out from scratch 13 years ago.



JIMinNC said:


> If they closed the sales office, I think that's a Marriott that could be at risk in any kind of "right-sizing" of the portfolio. Doesn't seem to fit with the other resorts. Closing the sales office would seem to mean they don't see adequate ROI from the prospects they got at that location.


Good points. I think resorts in established tourists areas drive traffic though too. The non beach resorts in HHI don't have dedicated sales offices but they drive traffic to the big office that is on HHI. I don't know if Marriott has sales offices at all of the Orlando properties, but they will shuttle you from any of them to the sales gallery in front of Grande Vista. They could perhaps expand that office and start routing Vistana Villages and Vistana Resort sales prospects there. Of course, operating those shuttles increases the marketing costs and both of those resorts are large enough to feed their own sales floors. Some properties, like Custom House really don't have a sales gallery. Yes there is a single sales person at Custom House, but when he retires or leaves, will anyone be there to step in to his spot?


----------



## Dean

dioxide45 said:


> I think the difference this time is that Marriott now has an established points system and should have a much better idea of how they want to integrate the programs than when they started out from scratch 13 years ago.


I suspect it's likely they had a pretty good plan in place up front for how this was going to work but the devil is in the details as they say.  But yes I think their previous experiences should help to some degree and hurt in others.  They've set up situations and expectations that they will be somewhat tied to.  And it's likely they'll change the seasons to some degree for any crossover or integration they come up with.  Then there's the skim issue.


----------



## dioxide45

I suspect any issues related to integration will be on the IT and technology side, not the design of the program. Their IT is awful.


----------



## dougp26364

JIMinNC said:


> If they closed the sales office, I think that's a Marriott that could be at risk in any kind of "right-sizing" of the portfolio. Doesn't seem to fit with the other resorts. Closing the sales office would seem to mean they don't see adequate ROI from the prospects they got at that location.



Well, that’s what I thought. But they’ve hung onto it long after the sales closed. In fact, the opposite occurred with the 2 Horizons branded resorts. Both have been renovated up to regular Marriott standards.

You just can’t guess which way they’ll go. It’s why speculation might be fun but  it’s futile

Keep in mind Marriott doesn’t staff a sales office at every resort. So the lack of a sales office means little


----------



## JIMinNC

dougp26364 said:


> Keep in mind Marriott doesn’t staff a sales office at every resort. So the lack of a sales office means little



Yeah, but are there any other places where they have no sales office even in the area? The nearest sales office to Branson would be 100s of miles away.


----------



## dougp26364

JIMinNC said:


> Yeah, but are there any other places where they have no sales office even in the area? The nearest sales office to Branson would be 100s of miles away.



I’m not sure. I don’t recall one in Park City when we were there, but maybe I was just good a dodging their sales staff


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## Fasttr

dougp26364 said:


> I’m not sure. I don’t recall one in Park City when we were there, but maybe I was just good a dodging their sales staff


There is one near MountainSide.


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## Sapper

All of this talk about possible properties that could be dropped / spun off reinforces what has been said repeatedly here on TUG “buy where you want to go because you never know what may happen”.


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## dioxide45

Sapper said:


> All of this talk about possible properties that could be dropped / spun off reinforces what has been said repeatedly here on TUG “buy where you want to go because you never know what may happen”.


But I don't want to keep going to just one place, so I take my chances...


----------



## Sapper

CalGalTraveler said:


> Providing more incentive, we are in a positive economic cycle. If they take too long to introduce the program, they may find it coming to market during an economic downturn with people shutting their discretionary wallets no matter how attractive the program.
> 
> As the saying goes,"Tell me how they are measured and I will tell you how they will act."



The Fed would not even be having a discussion of a rate cut if they didn’t see something concerning down the line. I’m not entirely sure what it may be. The markets seem to be ok, employment numbers are the best in decades (yes, decades). Possibly the trade issues with China causing a global economic slowdown.


----------



## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect any issues related to integration will be on the IT and technology side, not the design of the program. Their IT is awful.



Can it really be worse than VSN?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dougp26364

Fasttr said:


> There is one near MountainSide.


. 

Wow, must have been one of those rare occasions I was good at ducking the sales team or they didn’t think I looked like a prospect.


----------



## dougp26364

Ken555 said:


> Can it really be worse than VSN?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Yes


----------



## Sapper

dioxide45 said:


> But I don't want to keep going to just one place, so I take my chances...



Right, but what we tend to see time and time again are folks who really want to go to say Hawaii, but don’t want to spend the money to do it. So, will buy something else (which is inexpensive) in the system and leverage it to go to Hawaii. Then something happens, for example the system reconfigures the point values (or drops their property due to an acquisition), and now they can no longer leverage their unit in the same way. Had they bought where they wanted to go in the first place, it would not be an issue.


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## JIMinNC

Sapper said:


> The Fed would not even be having a discussion of a rate cut if they didn’t see something concerning down the line. I’m not entirely sure what it may be. The markets seem to be ok, employment numbers are the best in decades (yes, decades). Possibly the trade issues with China causing a global economic slowdown.



Powell said trade was a concern, but also general weakening in Europe and elsewhere. The global economy is interconnected, inflation is tame, and the Fed is concerned about getting too far out of step with other markets.


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## dougp26364

Sapper said:


> All of this talk about possible properties that could be dropped / spun off reinforces what has been said repeatedly here on TUG “buy where you want to go because you never know what may happen”.



Keep in mind that it’s highly unlikely any properties will be spun off. That’s only owner speculative anxiety speaking. The times Marriott has dumped properties had been rare and only under special circumstances, like the resort not being up to Marriott standards. 

Removal of resorts would be the least of my concerns with this merger. At the top of my list is how they’ll value each resort for internal exchanging and the booking window. I wouldn’t look for any earth shattering changes such as a few seem to think might happen


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## Ken555

Sapper said:


> Right, but what we tend to see time and time again are folks who really want to go to say Hawaii, but don’t want to spend the money to do it. So, will buy something else (which is inexpensive) in the system and leverage it to go to Hawaii. Then something happens, for example the system reconfigures the point values (or drops their property due to an acquisition), and now they can no longer leverage their unit in the same way. Had they bought where they wanted to go in the first place, it would not be an issue.



Either you trust the system, or you don’t. Either way, it seems shameful to blame the customer when the system changes. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Sapper

Ken555 said:


> Either you trust the system, or you don’t. Either way, it seems shameful to blame the customer when the system changes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Never said I blamed the customer.  However, you bring up a good point in that I don’t trust the system. The interest of the people who control the system and my interest are not the same thing. They want to maximize profit with the least output. I want the best vacation for my family at an economic value I can stomach.


----------



## CPNY

Sapper said:


> Never said I blamed the customer.  However, you bring up a good point in that I don’t trust the system. The interest of the people who control the system and my interest are not the same thing. They want to maximize profit with the least output. I want the best vacation for my family at an economic value I can stomach.



Yeah, you’ll never get an economic value purchasing through the developer. For me, if the harborside resort maint fees weren’t insanely high, I’d only own there, since it’s my favorite resort (Atlantis). Yet here I am, trying to figure out the best way to book back in at a reduced cost


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## Ken555

Sapper said:


> Never said I blamed the customer.  However, you bring up a good point in that I don’t trust the system. The interest of the people who control the system and my interest are not the same thing. They want to maximize profit with the least output. I want the best vacation for my family at an economic value I can stomach.



You absolutely blamed the customer. 

You wrote that there are buyers of cheaper resorts that buy there in order to go to Hawaii and then wrote:



> Had they bought where they wanted to go in the first place, it would not be an issue.



I bought Kierland without thinking I would go to Hawaii annually, but it turns out I sometimes do. I think it’s great that the system has this flexibility, and I absolutely resent anyone here telling me that I, and others like me, are at fault in any way by not buying where I want to travel. I’m not blaming you, and I’m not worried that my future travel options will be limited, but you’ve got your priorities all wrong. Perhaps you should just delete your earlier post... 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CalGalTraveler

Economic downturns are inevitable. It is not "if" but "when."  This bull market has been going on for an unusually long time. At some point, markets usually get overheated and fail.

A downturn will be our opportunity to negotiate hard to get what we want from MVC, or to pick up some incredible properties when people bail.

IMHO I am cautiously optimistic that MVC will offer something of value to VSN owners like me at a nominal cost. If not, we have very little to lose because we own in Maui and will simply continue to enjoy it. MVC points are a nice to have, not a must have item so we can wait it out for the right price or forgo the expense.


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## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> You absolutely blamed the customer.
> 
> You wrote that there are buyers of cheaper resorts that buy there in order to go to Hawaii and then wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I bought Kierland without thinking I would go to Hawaii annually, but it turns out I sometimes do. I think it’s great that the system has this flexibility, and I absolutely resent anyone here telling me that I, and others like me, are at fault in any way by not buying where I want to travel. I’m not blaming you, and I’m not worried that my future travel options will be limited, but you’ve got your priorities all wrong. Perhaps you should just delete your earlier post...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Considering this pitch “you can buy here and you never have to come back here, you can book in any resort in the network at 8 months with your star options”. Heard that at almost every VSN presentation I attended. So yeah, I complete agree with you. We are not at fault. We are just using the program the way it was intended to be used and the way it was sold to us. Can’t fault us for That.


----------



## Sapper

Ken555 said:


> You absolutely blamed the customer.
> 
> You wrote that there are buyers of cheaper resorts that buy there in order to go to Hawaii and then wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I bought Kierland without thinking I would go to Hawaii annually, but it turns out I sometimes do. I think it’s great that the system has this flexibility, and I absolutely resent anyone here telling me that I, and others like me, are at fault in any way by not buying where I want to travel. I’m not blaming you, and I’m not worried that my future travel options will be limited, but you’ve got your priorities all wrong. Perhaps you should just delete your earlier post...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I said buy where you want to go.  I did not assign blame, you did that for me. 

My priorities are fine, I bought where I wanted to go. I have been thrilled with the ability to trade, but because I have no faith that ability will always work for me (ie, can’t get the week I want, property I want, or even if points get reconfigured (which they have once)), I know I have a location where my family can have a nice vacation. 

You certainly sound like you are blaming me Ken, perhaps you should be the one deleting your post.


----------



## Sapper

CPNY said:


> Considering this pitch “you can buy here and you never have to come back here, you can book in any resort in the network at 8 months with your star options”. Heard that at almost every VSN presentation I attended. So yeah, I complete agree with you. We are not at fault. We are just using the program the way it was intended to be used and the way it was sold to us. Can’t fault us for That.



The sales weasels are at fault on this one. But it’s not just them, it took the developer to make slick marketing material and lawyers to leave out any trace of requiring the system be part of the contract.


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## dougp26364

Ken555 said:


> You absolutely blamed the customer.
> 
> You wrote that there are buyers of cheaper resorts that buy there in order to go to Hawaii and then wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I bought Kierland without thinking I would go to Hawaii annually, but it turns out I sometimes do. I think it’s great that the system has this flexibility, and I absolutely resent anyone here telling me that I, and others like me, are at fault in any way by not buying where I want to travel. I’m not blaming you, and I’m not worried that my future travel options will be limited, but you’ve got your priorities all wrong. Perhaps you should just delete your earlier post...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



At one point in time we owned 4 Las Vegas weeks and went to Las Vegas four times/year. Over time our needs changed and now we spend only 4 or 5 nights/year in Vegas. So owning in a system that allows us to travel outside our home resort is important. 

There’s a LOT of anxiety on this thread about Marriott dropping resorts. We really need to take s breath and step back from that idea. It’s highly unlikely to occur.


----------



## Ken555

Sapper said:


> I said buy where you want to go.  I did not assign blame, you did that for me.



Wrong again. You wrote:



> Had they bought where they wanted to go in the first place, it would not be an issue.



That is not a recommendation to “buy where you want to go”. It is a reason why something is “an issue”. Words matter.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CPNY

dougp26364 said:


> At one point in time we owned 4 Las Vegas weeks and went to Las Vegas four times/year. Over time our needs changed and now we spend only 4 or 5 nights/year in Vegas. So owning in a system that allows us to travel outside our home resort is important.
> 
> There’s a LOT of anxiety on this thread about Marriott dropping resorts. We really need to take s breath and step back from that idea. It’s highly unlikely to occur.



It seemed that someone threw out one hypothetical and it spread like wildfire. 

I’ll laugh when they don’t combine programs and they just have a simple offering like a affiliate type of exchange through interval, plus an exchange fee or an enrollment fee into the exchange. But i can count on someone here will tell me why that isn’t possible.


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## dougp26364

CPNY said:


> I’ll laugh when they don’t combine programs and they just have a simple offering like a affiliate type of exchange through interval, plus an exchange fee or an enrollment fee into the exchange. But i can count on someone here will tell me why that isn’t possible.



Possible, just not likely IMHO. Then again I was WAY off on my side speculation when they rolled out the DC.


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## dougp26364

Ken555 said:


> Wrong again. You wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> That is not a recommendation to “buy where you want to go”. It is a reason why something is “an issue”. Words matter.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


. 

FWIW, I’ve always recommended buy where you want to go. The problem is that’s changed over the years. Combined with the changes and expense of external exchanges, systems such as Marriott have become important to us. 

I’ve watched as timeshare has moved from individual resorts to groups of resorts to systems. Systems are hit. Systems are selling. Systems are what people are buying. That’s why I don’t believe Marriott plans to spin off, sell or disenfranchise any resorts in this merger at this time.


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## Dean

Ken555 said:


> Either you trust the system, or you don’t. Either way, it seems shameful to blame the customer when the system changes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I think there are times when the customer must accept responsibility for their choices, it you want to call it blame, so be it.  One needs to understand the product and risks involved and they include the likelihood that things will change and that often those changes are not positive for many people.  The changes for the companies acquired are likely to be beyond just a points reallocation long term.  If they don't understand those risks, they had the opportunity to.  By the same token I will not personally automatically assign blame to the system if it changes and is negative to a segment, it would depend on the specifics. 



dougp26364 said:


> At one point in time we owned 4 Las Vegas weeks and went to Las Vegas four times/year. Over time our needs changed and now we spend only 4 or 5 nights/year in Vegas. So owning in a system that allows us to travel outside our home resort is important.
> 
> There’s a LOT of anxiety on this thread about Marriott dropping resorts. We really need to take s breath and step back from that idea. It’s highly unlikely to occur.


No anxiety here but I do honestly believe there's a high likelihood not all of the resorts acquired will be with Marriott in 5 years. 



dougp26364 said:


> .
> 
> FWIW, I’ve always recommended buy where you want to go. The problem is that’s changed over the years. Combined with the changes and expense of external exchanges, systems such as Marriott have become important to us.
> 
> I’ve watched as timeshare has moved from individual resorts to groups of resorts to systems. Systems are hit. Systems are selling. Systems are what people are buying. That’s why I don’t believe Marriott plans to spin off, sell or disenfranchise any resorts in this merger at this time.


I tend to take a different approach.  I look at how I want to use them, the costs, the risks (personal and with the timeshare) and try to strike a balance.  For me personally I have resorts I own to use, those I own to trade and those I own with MVC for DC points.  I also own several systems which gives me "diversification" if you will.  Fortunately for me none of what I own come under this acquisition other than owning with Marriott and the risk of changes related to the DC itself and II exchange changes.  The bottom line is that timeshares always change.  So I buy what works for me and where the benefits outweigh the risks.  In the 90's I bought a unit from the resale department as my first purchase within Marriott.  I ended up buying HP but came fairly close to buying at Spicebush/Swallowtail.  Obviously I'm glad I didn't but it was luck to a degree.  A number of years ago I owned several fixed week/fixed unit options in Aruba and converted them to Bluegreen points by trading in those deeds.  In less than a year they announced a special assessment that would have been around $1K for each studio and each 1 BR, double for a lockoff.  In both cases there was some luck involved but my thought process at the time identified risks and situations that caused me to make the decisions made though less so with the Marriott resale purchase.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

CPNY said:


> It seemed that someone threw out one hypothetical and it spread like wildfire.
> 
> I’ll laugh when they don’t combine programs and they just have a simple offering like a affiliate type of exchange through interval, plus an exchange fee or an enrollment fee into the exchange. But i can count on someone here will tell me why that isn’t possible.



An Interval based program across all brands would certainly be the simplest to set up and administer. Minimal infrastructure investment required.

How would this differ from what you could do today in II via trades? Would there be some kind of preference similar to MVC preference?

Biggest question: How do you enable points only owners (DC, Flex) to trade across systems if you use II? Points programs are the sales trend. What will MVC sell if II is the only solution?


----------



## CPNY

CalGalTraveler said:


> An Interval based program across all brands would certainly be the easiest to set up and administer. Minimal infrastructure investment required.
> 
> How would this differ from what you could do today in II via trades? Would there be some kind of preference similar to MVC preference?
> 
> How do you enable points only owners (DC, Flex) to trade in each system if you use II? Points programs are the sales trend. What will MVC sell if II is the only solution?


I think many of the speculations about combining a program could be applied in this situation. But it’s one where you deposit your week, or convert your points whether it be your star options or DC points into a whole different set of points set up just for this exchange. But you have to give up what you have to swim in the affiliate exchange pool. It could come with an exchange fee or an enrollment fee, Who knows. They already have the II interface. Of course you could keep it separate from the inventory already there for the MVC preferential exchanges they have currently. Same with Vistana preferential exchanges. 

You might get some of those with desired resorts to play in the pool a bit more. Just a thought.


----------



## DannyTS

probably  Marriott employees that know what is coming follow forums like this and laugh their heads off knowing how far from what is to come most of us are in our predictions.


----------



## CPNY

DannyTS said:


> probably  Marriott employees that know what is coming follow forums like this and laugh their heads off knowing how far from what is to come most of us are in our predictions.


Yeah, they will announce MVC was sold to Motel 6. Don’t worry they’ll leave the light on for us.


----------



## bogey21

Dean said:


> I think there are times when the customer must accept responsibility for their choices, it you want to call it blame, so be it...



Agree 100%.  Monitor what you own.  If you see that you need to make a change, make it.  Don't procrastinate...

George


----------



## CalGalTraveler

DannyTS said:


> probably  Marriott employees that know what is coming follow forums like this and laugh their heads off knowing how far from what is to come most of us are in our predictions.



Are you kidding? This is where they get their best ideas...


----------



## SueDonJ

pchung6 said:


> ... I see the only viable solution is to *create a cross platform exchange *and keep Marriott Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, Sheraton Vacation Club and Hyatt Vacation Club all separated with no change to existing system for good or bad.  If you want go somewhere out of your system, just pay up.





SteelerGal said:


> ... I am sure *MVC already has the “overlay” program developed* and making the final touches in regards to marketing.





CPNY said:


> ... I’ll laugh when they don’t combine programs and they just have a *simple offering like a affiliate type of exchange through interval, plus an exchange fee or an enrollment fee* into the exchange.





CalGalTraveler said:


> *An Interval based program across all brands would certainly be the simplest to set up and administer. Minimal infrastructure investment required.*
> 
> How would this differ from what you could do today in II via trades? Would there be some kind of preference similar to MVC preference?
> 
> Biggest question: How do you enable points only owners (DC, Flex) to trade across systems if you use II? Points programs are the sales trend. What will MVC sell if II is the only solution?





CPNY said:


> I think many of the speculations about combining a program could be applied in this situation. But it’s one where *you deposit your week, or convert your points whether it be your star options or DC points into a whole different set of points set up just for this exchange. But you have to give up what you have to swim in the affiliate exchange pool*. It could come with an exchange fee or an enrollment fee, Who knows.



You all do realize that the type of program you're referencing is exactly what Marriott Vacations Worldwide has already developed and what Marriott owners have already been using?? The basics:

The points-based Destination Club consists of three basic components: the Trust to which MVW conveys MVW-held inventory, i.e. unsold, reacquired, foreclosed, etc; the Trust Points that correlate to those conveyances which are sold in 250-Point increments defined as, "Beneficial Interests;" and the Exchange Company through which ALL inventory can be managed and the vast majority of DC reservations are booked.

MVW doesn't sell original Weeks anymore, they sell the BI's. They also broker Weeks resales but as a component of hybrid packages which require a Points purchase.

Existing/sold Weeks may be DC-enrolled subject to eligibility rules and fees, which allows for a yearly election to exchange the Weeks for a specified allotment of Exchange/Enrolled Points.

Trust and Exchange/Enrolled Points can be used to book intervals according to the annually-released Points Charts, in which values are assigned to intervals based on resort/days and dates of desired stays/unit size and view type.

(These basics are fleshed out in much more detail in the TUG Marriott forum FAQ - MVC DESTINATIONS Points Program.)

Aside from all the issues that MVW has to deal with insofar as integrating the newly-acquired Vistana/Hyatt trust-based inventory into its own DC Trust, or brand licensing, or whatever else is on their back end, and focusing only on the easiest way for them to allow existing Vistana/Hyatt owners to integrate on the front end, they could do it in the exact same way they allowed existing Marriott Weeks owners to be integrated via DC enrollment! Why would they reinvent the wheel??

I do wonder, after the ILG acquisition, if there will be a consolidation of Interval International and the DC Exchange Company. It's possible, but just as likely is that they'll keep both - II as is for their owners to use for external exchanging as well as whatever financial gain they get as the parent company of an exchange company extensively used by non-MVW timeshare owners, and, the DC Exchange Company for their owners to use for internal exchanges across their Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt properties. Another thought is that we already know that Marriott utilizes some aspects of the II platform in managing the DC (but not the details of how/what,) so maybe there would be a consolidation that changes the corporate structure but doesn't impact us as users.

Interesting times, that's for sure.


----------



## SteelerGal

Since I am a Hyatt owner as well, I did research regarding their points program.  HPP was created by on of DC architects.  So the infrastructure is already there.  However HRC owners are not biting because it is a hybrid program that requires buying of points.  Min of 16k for resale.


----------



## SteelerGal

Check out the Hyatt HPP thread if interested.


----------



## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> Can it really be worse than VSN?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





dougp26364 said:


> Yes


Using both systems, I would much rather make a Vistana reservation vs trying to make a Marriott one. At least I can do just about everything online with Vistana; from making any reservation inside or outside home resort preference, adding names or guest certificates and even cancelling a reservation. With Marriott I can't do the last two at all and for the first, I have to call on the phone if I want to make a 13 month weeks reservation. I really hope the Vistana reservation system, even as bad as it is, survives the integration.



CalGalTraveler said:


> Economic downturns are inevitable. It is not "if" but "when."  This bull market has been going on for an unusually long time. At some point, markets usually get overheated and fail.
> 
> A downturn will be our opportunity to negotiate hard to get what we want from MVC, or to pick up some incredible properties when people bail.


That is unless you are the one that has to bail because the downturn impacted you personally. They say a recession is when other people are out of a job, a depression is when you are out of your job in a downturn.



Dean said:


> No anxiety here but I do honestly believe there's a high likelihood not all of the resorts acquired will be with Marriott in 5 years.


I am sure others may correct me but if you go back and look at the properties that were and are now no longer managed by Marriott, it has pretty much always been a BOD/owner decision to drop Marriott. Not Marriott pulling out of their end of the agreement. In those cases, the properties were not up to standard so Marriott tried to strongarm the HOA in to increasing fees or adding an assessment and improving the units and overall property to bring it up to the brand standard. The boards balked and voted to change management companies. Beachplace Towers is an example. It has long been an owner controlled board that managed the MF pretty well, but at a cost of the overall quality. Marriott wanted expensive LG or Sony televisions and the board wanted some lesser brand. Marriott wanted more extensive renovations with new cabinetry and the board thought just fixing up the existing would do the trick. Marriott wanted to offer free parking and the board didn't. In the end, Marriott fought to take more control of the board and ousted the president (who was an active TUG member) and in the end got the better unit standards they were demanding. The parking still isn't free but Marriott is still on the sign.

So while some properties like Willow Ridge may not have the same profit margins that other properties have. Their margins are lower likely because they don't have as much income from onsite food and beverage and lesser rental income. However, they have forced the property up to brand standard (from the lower end Horizons brand) and always walk away with their 10% since 100% of all other costs are covered by the owners (even back end accounting is picked up by the owners). I think it would have to take a lot more than margin outside of the management fee to make Marriott want to drop a property.

If you look at 2018 financial numbers, Marriott made $359MM from resort management and $920MM from cost reimbursement in their vacation ownership segment. Both of those numbers make up what is the annual maintenance fee. Dropping a resort is going to impact that revenue. They could possibly explain to Wall Street that they are reducing that revenue in order to increase margins, but lower revenue usually means a shrinking company. I would expect them to have to add more resorts in step with any that they drop to try to continue to make it look like revenue is growing.


----------



## GregT

All,

One thing I do prefer about the Marriott system to the Vistana system is that Marriott is actively trying to make inventory available at the 13 month and 12 month windows -- 10 months is whatever is left and there is no separate inventory release at 10 months (that I am aware of).

Vistana releases inventory at 12 months but at 8 months (when I can book with StarOptions), it is whatever is available.  Sometimes it's good, but it's variable availability for sure, and similar to the 10 month Marriott reservation experience, where the best reservations are gone.

So this is a key difference (IMO) between booking with StarOptions and booking with DC Points.  With DC Points, I think you have a much higher probability of reserving your target week because the inventory manager is trying to make inventory available to you.  More experienced Vistana owners may tell me that Vistana has similar incentive at the 8 month window, but I didn't think they were intentionally trying to make inventory available at 8 months out.

This is a problem for a possible StarOptions / DC Point overlay -- right now I can redeem a week for DC points at any time and take my chances on getting a DC point reservation when my booking window opens.   I don't think I would commit to a DC Points/StarOptions exchange in advance, because of the uncertainty of getting the reservation.   I assume therefore that it must be that I would be searching for inventory real time at the 8 month mark, and if it is there, I can book it with DC Points (which are converting to StarOptions).

It will be interesting to see what is rolled out and how the owners maximize it.

Best,

Greg


----------



## Dean

dioxide45 said:


> I am sure others may correct me but if you go back and look at the properties that were and are now no longer managed by Marriott, it has pretty much always been a BOD/owner decision to drop Marriott. Not Marriott pulling out of their end of the agreement. In those cases, the properties were not up to standard so Marriott tried to strongarm the HOA in to increasing fees or adding an assessment and improving the units and overall property to bring it up to the brand standard. The boards balked and voted to change management companies. Beachplace Towers is an example. It has long been an owner controlled board that managed the MF pretty well, but at a cost of the overall quality. Marriott wanted expensive LG or Sony televisions and the board wanted some lesser brand. Marriott wanted more extensive renovations with new cabinetry and the board thought just fixing up the existing would do the trick. Marriott wanted to offer free parking and the board didn't. In the end, Marriott fought to take more control of the board and ousted the president (who was an active TUG member) and in the end got the better unit standards they were demanding. The parking still isn't free but Marriott is still on the sign.
> 
> So while some properties like Willow Ridge may not have the same profit margins that other properties have. Their margins are lower likely because they don't have as much income from onsite food and beverage and lesser rental income. However, they have forced the property up to brand standard (from the lower end Horizons brand) and always walk away with their 10% since 100% of all other costs are covered by the owners (even back end accounting is picked up by the owners). I think it would have to take a lot more than margin outside of the management fee to make Marriott want to drop a property.
> 
> If you look at 2018 financial numbers, Marriott made $359MM from resort management and $920MM from cost reimbursement in their vacation ownership segment. Both of those numbers make up what is the annual maintenance fee. Dropping a resort is going to impact that revenue. They could possibly explain to Wall Street that they are reducing that revenue in order to increase margins, but lower revenue usually means a shrinking company. I would expect them to have to add more resorts in step with any that they drop to try to continue to make it look like revenue is growing.


It wasn't for any for the events I referenced.  In some cases it was an ultimatum where the board had a decision whether to meet the ultimatum or be put out.  It wasn't that they voted to leave but rather voted not to spend the money to keep them, we may be saying the same thing in those instances.  In terms of Spicebush or swallowtail, as I understand it, they largely met the ultimatum and were still expelled.  I don't think Longboat or Saturday Villas had any choice.  I don't disagree with the choices Marriott made but the point was there is a cutoff where they will cut their losses.  If they threatened Beachplace and Aruba Ocean Club, you know they're not going to worry much about Vistana or Vistana Villages as examples.


----------



## Sapper

Dean said:


> It wasn't for any for the events I referenced.  In some cases it was an ultimatum where the board had a decision whether to meet the ultimatum or be put out.  It wasn't that they voted to leave but rather voted not to spend the money to keep them, we may be saying the same thing in those instances.  In terms of Spicebush or swallowtail, as I understand it, they largely met the ultimatum and were still expelled.  I don't think Longboat or Saturday Villas had any choice.  I don't disagree with the choices Marriott made but the point was there is a cutoff where they will cut their losses.  If they threatened Beachplace and Aruba Ocean Club, you know they're not going to worry much about Vistana or Vistana Villages as examples.



Do y’all think it is “keeping to a Marriott standard” or is it Marriott ensuring they make a minimum profit by forcing upgrades that cost $$$, but at the same time increases their management fee as their 10% is tied to the total cost of operation?


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## SueDonJ

Sapper said:


> Do y’all think it is “keeping to a Marriott standard” or is it Marriott ensuring they make a minimum profit by forcing upgrades that cost $$$, but at the same time increases their management fee as their 10% is tied to the total cost of operation?



I think it's all of it: upholding a brand standard which sometimes means choosing higher-priced items over alternatives, and, protecting at least a baseline Management Fee profitability.

I've seen at my resorts where corporate has at times allowed the board to reject Marriott recommendations in favor of alternatives that cost less so I know that it's not only about Marriott's bottom line. It hasn't happened often, and certainly not with every proposal, but it's not unheard of. I like to mention it, though, because the drumbeat is that Marriott uses only high-priced goods solely for its own benefit of driving profit, and I know that's not the whole truth.

Also, as an owner, I like the brand's high standard and the fact that they do cyclical refurbs that (on the whole) allow the resorts to not ever appear run down. That's one of the reasons why I bought Marriott and not something else.


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## Ken555

dougp26364 said:


> FWIW, I’ve always recommended buy where you want to go. The problem is that’s changed over the years. Combined with the changes and expense of external exchanges, systems such as Marriott have become important to us.



I’ve written extensively on TUG about this topic over the years, just not in this forum. My posts were specific to the meaning of the previous posters sentences, while I think we all know that what he wrote was not what he meant. That was why I said “words matter”. 


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## dioxide45

Dean said:


> It wasn't for any for the events I referenced.  In some cases it was an ultimatum where the board had a decision whether to meet the ultimatum or be put out.  It wasn't that they voted to leave but rather voted not to spend the money to keep them, we may be saying the same thing in those instances.  In terms of Spicebush or swallowtail, as I understand it, they largely met the ultimatum and were still expelled.  I don't think Longboat or Saturday Villas had any choice.  I don't disagree with the choices Marriott made but the point was there is a cutoff where they will cut their losses.  If they threatened Beachplace and Aruba Ocean Club, you know they're not going to worry much about Vistana or Vistana Villages as examples.


I think one key difference with the Vistana resorts is that Vistana has much better developer control over the boards vs many of those older resorts you are referring to. Many were independant or smaller resorts that Marriott took on when first starting out and growing the vacation ownership segment. Many of the boards were owner controlled and they simply didn't want to spend the money. Based on my experience so far being to two BOD meetings at Grande Vista, while the boards are owner controlled, they tend to spend what Marriott wants them to spend. Not saying there isn't any pushback, but they usually fold in the end. Using the exterior floor tile at Grande Vista that they are installing it a good example. It looks great but I think I calculated the financial payback period to be something like 30-40 years over just continuing to repaint the exterior floors. THey are installing it anyway to the tune of millions of dollars. I would expect Vistana boards to simply do the same.


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## JIMinNC

Sapper said:


> However, you bring up a good point in that I don’t trust the system. The interest of the people who control the system and my interest are not the same thing. They want to maximize profit with the least output. I want the best vacation for my family at an economic value I can stomach.



Couldn't this same thing be said about virtually any for-profit business? A business is designed to make a profit for the owners (shareholders for a public corp). IMHO, maximizing profit should be the goal of every company that I own stock in (I don't own any VAC, by the way). But to truly maximize profit, a company *must* have happy customers, so in that sense the interests of the company and the customers *are* aligned. The corporate world is littered with failed companies who tried to maximize profits, but lost sight of their customers' interests and wound up with lots of unhappy customers. The best, most profitable companies in America generally have happy customers. Most surveys I've seen show the customer satisfaction for Marriott Vacation Club to be 95%+. TUGgers tend to be a little more critical, but we are more educated about the products than most others and we represent a tiny sliver of timeshare owners.


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## mjm1

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> One thing I do prefer about the Marriott system to the Vistana system is that Marriott is actively trying to make inventory available at the 13 month and 12 month windows -- 10 months is whatever is left and there is no separate inventory release at 10 months (that I am aware of).
> 
> Vistana releases inventory at 12 months but at 8 months (when I can book with StarOptions), it is whatever is available.  Sometimes it's good, but it's variable availability for sure, and similar to the 10 month Marriott reservation experience, where the best reservations are gone.
> 
> So this is a key difference (IMO) between booking with StarOptions and booking with DC Points.  With DC Points, I think you have a much higher probability of reserving your target week because the inventory manager is trying to make inventory available to you.  More experienced Vistana owners may tell me that Vistana has similar incentive at the 8 month window, but I didn't think they were intentionally trying to make inventory available at 8 months out.
> 
> This is a problem for a possible StarOptions / DC Point overlay -- right now I can redeem a week for DC points at any time and take my chances on getting a DC point reservation when my booking window opens.   I don't think I would commit to a DC Points/StarOptions exchange in advance, because of the uncertainty of getting the reservation.   I assume therefore that it must be that I would be searching for inventory real time at the 8 month mark, and if it is there, I can book it with DC Points (which are converting to StarOptions).
> 
> It will be interesting to see what is rolled out and how the owners maximize it.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Greg, I see your question/point about how the functionality could work. It would be better if the new integrated system would show any availability of Vistana units in the MVC system and you could reserve it using DC points without having to elect to convert DC points to SO’s. The same would be the case for Vistana owners reserving MVC units within the Vistana system and using SO’s without electing a conversion to DC points. Otherwise, like you say there would be a risk of converting and then not having availability. Time will tell.

Best regards.

Mike


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## Sapper

JIMinNC said:


> Couldn't this same thing be said about virtually any for-profit business? A business is designed to make a profit for the owners (shareholders for a public corp). IMHO, maximizing profit should be the goal of every company that I own stock in (I don't own any VAC, by the way). But to truly maximize profit, a company *must* have happy customers, so in that sense the interests of the company and the customers *are* aligned. The corporate world is littered with failed companies who tried to maximize profits, but lost sight of their customers' interests and wound up with lots of unhappy customers. The best, most profitable companies in America generally have happy customers. Most surveys I've seen show the customer satisfaction for Marriott Vacation Club to be 95%+. TUGgers tend to be a little more critical, but we are more educated about the products than most others and we represent a tiny sliver of timeshare owners.



I’d say that you are correct, however, a timeshare has a different barrier to exit than a half gallon of ice cream.


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## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> I’ll laugh when they don’t combine programs and they just have a simple offering like a affiliate type of exchange through interval, plus an exchange fee or an enrollment fee into the exchange. But i can count on someone here will tell me why that isn’t possible.





CalGalTraveler said:


> An Interval based program across all brands would certainly be the simplest to set up and administer. Minimal infrastructure investment required.
> 
> How would this differ from what you could do today in II via trades? Would there be some kind of preference similar to MVC preference?
> 
> Biggest question: How do you enable points only owners (DC, Flex) to trade across systems if you use II? Points programs are the sales trend. What will MVC sell if II is the only solution?



They could do this, but the reason I don't think they *will* is that both VSE and MVC had moved away from weeks-based exchanging into the flexibility of their respective points systems. To go backwards toward weeks-exchanging would be the opposite of their overall strategic direction. I think they see Interval as the vehicle for out-of-network vacations, but points are the present and the future for in-network. I could see them doing some sort of Interval-based solution where VSE owners got "Marriott Priority" and vice versa as an interim solution prior to a points-based solution, but if that was going to be their path, I think you would have already seen that rolled out, since I suspect that functionality would probably be fairly easy to build. Points are the future of the industry and what most customers want today.


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## JIMinNC

Sapper said:


> I’d say that you are correct, however, a timeshare has a different barrier to exit than a half gallon of ice cream.



It's not so much the relative difficulty of exit for timeshare as it is that 60% or so of MVW's annual sales of timeshare interests are to existing owners. If the owners are not happy, they won't buy more, so sales and the stock price would fall. As long as they are so dependent on repeat buyers to keep sales up, there will always be a connection between customer satisfaction and corporate success at MVW.


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## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> Beachplace Towers is an example. It has long been an owner controlled board that managed the MF pretty well, but at a cost of the overall quality. Marriott wanted expensive LG or Sony televisions and the board wanted some lesser brand. Marriott wanted more extensive renovations with new cabinetry and the board thought just fixing up the existing would do the trick. Marriott wanted to offer free parking and the board didn't. In the end, Marriott fought to take more control of the board and ousted the president (who was an active TUG member) and in the end got the better unit standards they were demanding. The parking still isn't free but Marriott is still on the sign.





Sapper said:


> Do y’all think it is “keeping to a Marriott standard” or is it Marriott ensuring they make a minimum profit by forcing upgrades that cost $$$, but at the same time increases their management fee as their 10% is tied to the total cost of operation?





SueDonJ said:


> I think it's all of it: upholding a brand standard which sometimes means choosing higher-priced items over alternatives, and, protecting at least a baseline Management Fee profitability.
> 
> Also, as an owner, I like the brand's high standard and the fact that they do cyclical refurbs that (on the whole) allow the resorts to not ever appear run down. That's one of the reasons why I bought Marriott and not something else.



I would think this is the same issue at the Westins. The Westin resorts are maintained to at least as high a standard as Marriott - and based on my one stay at a Westin - probably a little higher as far as furnishings, amenities, etc. And for me personally as an owner, maintaining those brand standards is the top priority. I don't want maintenance fees to run amok, but even more so, I don't want them pinching pennies and letting standards fall. If we were content with "Just OK", we wouldn't have bought Marriott.


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## Ken555

JIMinNC said:


> I would think this is the same issue at the Westins. The Westin resorts are maintained to at least as high a standard as Marriott - and based on my one stay at a Westin - probably a little higher as far as furnishings, amenities, etc. And for me personally as an owner, maintaining those brand standards is the top priority. I don't want maintenance fees to run amok, but even more so, I don't want them pinching pennies and letting standards fall. If we were content with "Just OK", we wouldn't have bought Marriott.



Did anyone suggest they are going to lower standards? As was posted earlier, they make money every time the HOAs perform an upgrade. There is every reason for them to make the resorts better, and I expect they will continue to do this without pause. Yes, this is one of those reasons why we bought into these programs vs any of the many others. 


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## JIMinNC

Ken555 said:


> Did anyone suggest they are going to lower standards? As was posted earlier, they make money every time the HOAs perform an upgrade. There is every reason for them to make the resorts better, and I expect they will continue to do this without pause. Yes, this is one of those reasons why we bought into these programs vs any of the many others.



No one suggested that at all. My point was that the HOAs at all of the branded resorts and MVW have a huge incentive to keep brand standards high and not cut corners that could result in losing the sign and causing dissatisfied owners that won't buy more product. I think that is the prime driver and not the fact that they can make a little more because of their 10% cut. The 10% does work in unison with that, but if they look at the big picture, keeping standards high and in keeping with the brand standard is probably job #1.


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## Ken555

JIMinNC said:


> No one suggested that at all. My point was that the HOAs at all of the branded resorts and MVW have a huge incentive to keep brand standards high and not cut corners that could result in losing the sign and causing dissatisfied owners that won't buy more product. I think that is the prime driver and not the fact that they can make a little more because of their 10% cut. The 10% does work in unison with that, but if they look at the big picture, keeping standards high and in keeping with the brand standard is probably job #1.



Yes, this has been my understanding since before I bought my first timeshare in 2005, and I don’t think it’s changed. 


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## JIMinNC

SueDonJ said:


> I do wonder, after the ILG acquisition, if there will be a consolidation of Interval International and the DC Exchange Company. It's possible, but just as likely is that they'll keep both - II as is for their owners to use for external exchanging as well as whatever financial gain they get as the parent company of an exchange company extensively used by non-MVW timeshare owners, and, the DC Exchange Company for their owners to use for internal exchanges across their Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt properties. Another thought is that we already know that Marriott utilizes some aspects of the II platform in managing the DC (but not the details of how/what,) so maybe there would be a consolidation that changes the corporate structure but doesn't impact us as users.



I recall someone posting (maybe in this thread, maybe another, but I'm not going to go through 28 pages to find it) that there had already been some push-back about MVW owning II now and concerns from other II member developers/property managers that they might manage II to the benefit of MVW owners and to the detriment of the other systems. I think if they decide to retain II long term, they probably want to keep II at arms length from their internal exchange mechanisms. Too much potential for other II member organizations to raise a stink.


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## Dean

Sapper said:


> Do y’all think it is “keeping to a Marriott standard” or is it Marriott ensuring they make a minimum profit by forcing upgrades that cost $$$, but at the same time increases their management fee as their 10% is tied to the total cost of operation?


As others said above, it is a mixture of the 2, they really are tied together and will function as a balance.



dioxide45 said:


> I think one key difference with the Vistana resorts is that Vistana has much better developer control over the boards vs many of those older resorts you are referring to. Many were independant or smaller resorts that Marriott took on when first starting out and growing the vacation ownership segment. Many of the boards were owner controlled and they simply didn't want to spend the money. Based on my experience so far being to two BOD meetings at Grande Vista, while the boards are owner controlled, they tend to spend what Marriott wants them to spend. Not saying there isn't any pushback, but they usually fold in the end. Using the exterior floor tile at Grande Vista that they are installing it a good example. It looks great but I think I calculated the financial payback period to be something like 30-40 years over just continuing to repaint the exterior floors. THey are installing it anyway to the tune of millions of dollars. I would expect Vistana boards to simply do the same.


Sure they're different but my point all along has been that there is a tipping point where they would move ANY resort and it's possible one or more of the resorts might vote Marriott out as management as well.  It's about profits, work, effort and risk.  Without seeing the docs for each resort I'm willing to bet that each and every one of them have guidelines in which the resort could exit the system.  One of them is likely that the controlling management company is no longer the manager for that resort.  This could happen if they are voted out which is difficult to do for such systems but it could also happen if the management contract were sold off for a given resort which likely is possible.  In spite of some's opinion, there are no resort that are going to be locked in, even resorts like Maui or Grande Ocean; but there are some resorts that more at risk than others.  And Marriott could easily sell off any or all of these systems for enough $$$.  I don't expect they will for Vistana/Sheraton or Westin but I could easily see that happening with VRI.  And I'd say any resort that would be rated lower than Harbour Pointe is definitely at risk, as is HP for that matter, IMO.

There were similar discussions and statements before the other resorts were let go.  Some said this would never happen, it did.  Some said they'd never split up Vail, they did.  Remember there was a previous round of resort expulsions many years ago and in those situations they gave owners options that had bought directly from Marriott, they didn't do that I don't believe with the latest round of expulsions.


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## JIMinNC

SueDonJ said:


> You all do realize that the type of program you're referencing is exactly what Marriott Vacations Worldwide has already developed and what Marriott owners have already been using?? The basics:
> 
> The points-based Destination Club consists of three basic components: the Trust to which MVW conveys MVW-held inventory, i.e. unsold, reacquired, foreclosed, etc; the Trust Points that correlate to those conveyances which are sold in 250-Point increments defined as, "Beneficial Interests;" and the Exchange Company through which ALL inventory can be managed and the vast majority of DC reservations are booked.
> 
> MVW doesn't sell original Weeks anymore, they sell the BI's. They also broker Weeks resales but as a component of hybrid packages which require a Points purchase.
> 
> Existing/sold Weeks may be DC-enrolled subject to eligibility rules and fees, which allows for a yearly election to exchange the Weeks for a specified allotment of Exchange/Enrolled Points.
> 
> Trust and Exchange/Enrolled Points can be used to book intervals according to the annually-released Points Charts, in which values are assigned to intervals based on resort/days and dates of desired stays/unit size and view type.
> 
> (These basics are fleshed out in much more detail in the TUG Marriott forum FAQ - MVC DESTINATIONS Points Program.)
> 
> Aside from all the issues that MVW has to deal with insofar as integrating the newly-acquired Vistana/Hyatt trust-based inventory into its own DC Trust, or brand licensing, or whatever else is on their back end, and focusing only on the easiest way for them to allow existing Vistana/Hyatt owners to integrate on the front end, they could do it in the exact same way they allowed existing Marriott Weeks owners to be integrated via DC enrollment! Why would they reinvent the wheel??



I think a picture is worth a thousand words, and given the complexity of the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations program, I thought some of the VSE owners mind find the attached diagram that I put together helpful.

The key point to understand is the difference between the DC Trust and the DC Exchange. Only Marriott as program manager can deposit inventory (weeks intervals) into the DC Trust (obtained by construction, acquisition, ROFR, etc). The Trust then becomes the source of the points, sold as Beneficial Interests in the Trust to Trust owners (the thick red line in the diagram).

Owners who have enrolled weeks, *do not* deposit their weeks into the Trust - they can't. They elect for points (as a third option in addition to home resort use and II deposit*) and Marriott then deposits that inventory into the DC Exchange. As a practical matter, Marriott also seems to deposit most of their DC Trust inventory into the DC Exchange as well, and that is the inventory pool from which almost all DC reservations are fulfilled (two parallel black lines). There have been reports from some TUGgers of Trust owners having an occasional reservation fulfilled direct from the Trust, but we think that is rare. That is represented by the thin red line in the diagram. I have shown the blocks for "Trust Owners" and "Enrolled Owners" as overlapping, signifying that many owners are in both blocks. The true overlap is likely much greater than the amount of overlap shown in the diagram.

Not explicitly shown is the legacy weeks system, but that system essentially would be represented by the green, yellow, and purple boxes on the left side of the diagram. In the legacy weeks system, the green box would consist of both Enrolled and Non-Enrolled weeks.

I hope this helps visualize what is a fairly complex system.

_* For simplicity I'm ignoring converting to Bonvoy points.




 _


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## Fasttr

^^^  Just a comment that the DC Exchange can also tap II as another source to fulfill DC Exchange ressie requests.


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## JIMinNC

Fasttr said:


> ^^^  Just a comment that the DC Exchange can also tap II as another source to fulfill DC Exchange ressie requests.



Valid point. Plus there are also the international resorts that can't go into the Trust. When Marriott reacquires them via ROFR, deed back, foreclosure, etc they become developer-owned inventory, but are separate from the Trust. Marriott probably puts some of those into the DC Exchange as well. I didn't include those less frequent scenarios, just to keep the diagram from getting more complex than it already is. I almost didn't include the Trust direct reservations either for the same reason.


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## dougp26364

JIMinNC said:


> They could do this, but the reason I don't think they *will* is that both VSE and MVC had moved away from weeks-based exchanging into the flexibility of their respective points systems. To go backwards toward weeks-exchanging would be the opposite of their overall strategic direction. I think they see Interval as the vehicle for out-of-network vacations, but points are the present and the future for in-network. I could see them doing some sort of Interval-based solution where VSE owners got "Marriott Priority" and vice versa as an interim solution prior to a points-based solution, but if that was going to be their path, I think you would have already seen that rolled out, since I suspect that functionality would probably be fairly easy to build. Points are the future of the industry and what most customers want today.



Juuuusssssttttt to throw a monkey wrench into this. 

How about if Marriott utilized interval Gold membership, which assigns points for your deposited week based on its value in the system? Internal exchanges could be “free” and outside of the system exchanges charged the regular exchange fee. Interval membership would be covered under a flat fee corporate account exclusive to Marriott/SVN owner/members?

This would satisfy all requirements of a “combined” system. Internal exchanges across brands, points assigned to weeks deposited and maintain separation of brands.

I can poke holes in this as easily as build it up. The issue is, none of us know exactly what Marriott is after by combining systems. My point is, it may not be as difficult as you think or such a long walk backwards.


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## Ken555

dougp26364 said:


> Juuuusssssttttt to throw a monkey wrench into this.
> 
> How about if Marriott utilized interval Gold membership, which assigns points for your deposited week based on its value in the system? Internal exchanges could be “free” and outside of the system exchanges charged the regular exchange fee. Interval membership would be covered under a flat fee corporate account exclusive to Marriott/SVN owner/members?
> 
> This would satisfy all requirements of a “combined” system. Internal exchanges across brands, points assigned to weeks deposited and maintain separation of brands.
> 
> I can poke holes in this as easily as build it up. The issue is, none of us know exactly what Marriott is after by combining systems. My point is, it may not be as difficult as you think or such a long walk backwards.



I thought we already discussed using the existing II framework to connect the Vistana and Marriott systems. If not, perhaps it’s part of the thread on the Vistana forum. But yes, obviously. It’s absolutely a possibility and one which would likely create the least disruption with existing systems.


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## dougp26364

Ken555 said:


> I thought we already discussed using the existing II framework to connect the Vistana and Marriott systems. If not, perhaps it’s part of the thread on the Vistana forum. But yes, obviously. It’s absolutely a possibility and one which would likely create the least disruption with existing systems.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Im slow. I think there are 2 pages of posts since I last read this thread. Believe it’s time to bow out as nothing in here is anything other than mild entertainment.


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## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> I think a picture is worth a thousand words, and given the complexity of the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations program, I thought some of the VSE owners mind find the attached diagram that I put together helpful.
> 
> The key point to understand is the difference between the DC Trust and the DC Exchange. Only Marriott as program manager can deposit inventory (weeks intervals) into the DC Trust (obtained by construction, acquisition, ROFR, etc). The Trust then becomes the source of the points, sold as Beneficial Interests in the Trust to Trust owners (the thick red line in the diagram).
> 
> Owners who have enrolled weeks, *do not* deposit their weeks into the Trust - they can't. They elect for points (as a third option in addition to home resort use and II deposit*) and Marriott then deposits that inventory into the DC Exchange. As a practical matter, Marriott also seems to deposit most of their DC Trust inventory into the DC Exchange as well, and that is the inventory pool from which almost all DC reservations are fulfilled (two parallel black lines). There have been reports from some TUGgers of Trust owners having an occasional reservation fulfilled direct from the Trust, but we think that is rare. That is represented by the thin red line in the diagram. I have shown the blocks for "Trust Owners" and "Enrolled Owners" as overlapping, signifying that many owners are in both blocks. The true overlap is likely much greater than the amount of overlap shown in the diagram.
> 
> Not explicitly shown is the legacy weeks system, but that system essentially would be represented by the green, yellow, and purple boxes on the left side of the diagram. In the legacy weeks system, the green box would consist of both Enrolled and Non-Enrolled weeks.
> 
> I hope this helps visualize what is a fairly complex system.
> 
> _* For simplicity I'm ignoring converting to Bonvoy points.
> 
> 
> View attachment 12874 _


Help me understand, so enrolled deeded weeks dump their weeks into the DC-E, MVC dumps all weeks they acquired through various channels (ROFR,New Resorts, deedbacks etc), then all those with DC trust ownership can book either direct in the DC Trust or Exchange but enrolled weeks that were converted can only book with inventory in the exchange? I may have that completely wrong, I literally looked at the diagram for 30 seconds.

So can’t MVC implement a conversion of star options to DC points and access the exchange? Anyone with a flex ownership converts SO to DC and can use inventory MVC now controls and thrown into the exchange. Anyone with a VSN deeded week can dump their week into the DC-E in exchange for DC points. I would think it would be a simple conversion value SO for DC and it wouldn’t matter what resort you own, since the star option chart is already in place. I think you can have inter program bookings and still run both DC and VSN program separate and not fully combining them and Not just in the short term. Or create a separate DC/VSN exchange a “3rd program” separate from the two, which is what i was eluding to in regards to an “exchange” using II platform. The inventory would limited and be dumped in from deeded week owners on both sides and what MVC controls on both sides through various channels.


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## CPNY

dougp26364 said:


> Juuuusssssttttt to throw a monkey wrench into this.
> 
> How about if Marriott utilized interval Gold membership, which assigns points for your deposited week based on its value in the system? Internal exchanges could be “free” and outside of the system exchanges charged the regular exchange fee. Interval membership would be covered under a flat fee corporate account exclusive to Marriott/SVN owner/members?
> 
> This would satisfy all requirements of a “combined” system. Internal exchanges across brands, points assigned to weeks deposited and maintain separation of brands.
> 
> I can poke holes in this as easily as build it up. The issue is, none of us know exactly what Marriott is after by combining systems. My point is, it may not be as difficult as you think or such a long walk backwards.


Yup


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## TXTortoise

JIMinNC said:


> I think a picture is worth a thousand words, and given the complexity of the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations program, I thought some of the VSE owners mind find the attached diagram that I put together helpful.
> 
> 
> _View attachment 12874 _



Jim, you need to put a credit line or © with your name, since that graphic is worth saving/sharing. And I expect it will change over the next year...and there has to be a variance of this at MVCI corporate.  ;-)


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## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> Help me understand, so enrolled deeded weeks dump their weeks into the DC-E, MVC dumps all weeks they acquired through various channels (ROFR,New Resorts, deedbacks etc), then all those with DC trust ownership can book either direct in the DC Trust or Exchange but enrolled weeks that were converted can only book with inventory in the exchange? I may have that completely wrong, I literally looked at the diagram for 30 seconds.



Basically correct, but the Trust owners don't choose whether to book direct with the Trust or through the Exchange. MVC makes that call in their system. Basically, here it is in words:

Weeks that Enrolled Owners elect for DC Points go into the DC Exchange
Weeks MVC acquires in various ways go into the DC Trust.
As best as we have been able to determine based on reservation confirmations (which show the source of the confirmation as either "Exchange" or "Trust"), virtually all MVC reservation confirmations come out of the Exchange. As a result, we believe that MVC must co-mingle most of their Trust inventory into the Exchange using some methodology that we can only guess at. There have been a few reports of confirmations for some pure-trust reservations coming from the Trust, but those are few and far between. Whether the reservation comes from the Trust or the Exchange is managed within Marriott's "Black Box" (the inner-workings of their system's inventory management), so it is totally transparent to the owner requesting the reservation. The owner just requests the booking they want, and it is fulfilled by Marriott - usually from the Exchange, but once in a while from the Trust (for Trust-point only reservations).
Only owners using their Trust points can book the inventory when it resides in the Trust. Once the inventory is co-mingled by Marriott into the DC Exchange, it can be booked by any DC member -- Trust owners, Enrolled owners, and owners who have both Trust points and Enrolled/elected points.
As I noted above, what we don't know is how or when MVC decides to fulfill a reservation out of the Trust for a Trust owner or just to fulfill it out of the Exchange.   



> can’t MVC implement a conversion of star options to DC points and access the exchange? Anyone with a flex ownership converts SO to DC and can use inventory MVC now controls and thrown into the exchange. Anyone with a VSN deeded week can dump their week into the DC-E in exchange for DC points. I would think it would be a simple conversion value SO for DC and it wouldn’t matter what resort you own, since the star option chart is already in place. I think you can have inter program bookings and still run both DC and VSN program separate and not fully combining them and Not just in the short term. Or create a separate DC/VSN exchange a “3rd program” separate from the two, which is what i was eluding to in regards to an “exchange” using II platform. The inventory would limited and be dumped in from deeded week owners on both sides and what MVC controls on both sides through various channels.



As we've said, they have many ways they could structure this. All have advantages and disadvantages. Time will tell.


----------



## JIMinNC

TXTortoise said:


> Jim, you need to put a credit line or © with your name, since that graphic is worth saving/sharing. And I expect it will change over the next year...and there has to be a variance of this at MVCI corporate.  ;-)



Can’t sell it, so why copyright it?


----------



## Dean

CPNY said:


> Help me understand, so enrolled deeded weeks dump their weeks into the DC-E, MVC dumps all weeks they acquired through various channels (ROFR,New Resorts, deedbacks etc), then all those with DC trust ownership can book either direct in the DC Trust or Exchange but enrolled weeks that were converted can only book with inventory in the exchange? I may have that completely wrong, I literally looked at the diagram for 30 seconds.
> 
> So can’t MVC implement a conversion of star options to DC points and access the exchange? Anyone with a flex ownership converts SO to DC and can use inventory MVC now controls and thrown into the exchange. Anyone with a VSN deeded week can dump their week into the DC-E in exchange for DC points. I would think it would be a simple conversion value SO for DC and it wouldn’t matter what resort you own, since the star option chart is already in place. I think you can have inter program bookings and still run both DC and VSN program separate and not fully combining them and Not just in the short term. Or create a separate DC/VSN exchange a “3rd program” separate from the two, which is what i was eluding to in regards to an “exchange” using II platform. The inventory would limited and be dumped in from deeded week owners on both sides and what MVC controls on both sides through various channels.


As noted, they have lots of options.  I know from your standpoint you want things to stay the same or at least to retain the same options with additional options.  Personally I'm doubting that'll happen fully but we'll see.  They're going to have one goal, to make as much money as possible and the way to do so is to sell the new members something and control/reduce costs.  Running multiple systems independently plus an additional crossover system almost certainly doesn't do that plus they have to not only maintain all of those systems but continually update them.  Their IT department has already been labeled in this thread as not good.  I know you and others have suggested you have to make everyone happy to sell but personally that's not how I see it.  The best way to sell to current owners is greed and a little fear.  You make them think they can cruise, stay at all then top properties, rent out, etc. and you make them fearful (real or imagined) that the options they currently have are being reduced.  Thus you target them to get them into a promotion to have the chance to do so.

Historically they've already tried to use II as their internal exchange option which is how we got to the DC anyway.  I don't see that happening, too inefficient and too risky.  And I don't see them developing an additional program completely separate to the DC other than one that flows into the DC.  But if they did it would likely not have equal access for a separate program and get leftovers much like the DVC BVTC system did.  I think the most you'd see would be to maintain the current non DC systems as they are and find a way to shrink them over time.  I could see them enrolling owners who have an underlying week and I could see them enrolling by creating a points grid for those that don't.  As a minimum this would decrease availability for those systems, esp if they're able to siphon off the best weeks for DC availability.


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> As noted, they have lots of options.  I know from your standpoint you want things to stay the same or at least to retain the same options with additional options.  Personally I'm doubting that'll happen fully but we'll see.  They're going to have one goal, to make as much money as possible and the way to do so is to sell the new members something and control/reduce costs.  Running multiple systems independently plus an additional crossover system almost certainly doesn't do that plus they have to not only maintain all of those systems but continually update them.  Their IT department has already been labeled in this thread as not good.  I know you and others have suggested you have to make everyone happy to sell but personally that's not how I see it.  The best way to sell to current owners is greed and a little fear.  You make them think they can cruise, stay at all then top properties, rent out, etc. and you make them fearful (real or imagined) that the options they currently have are being reduced.  Thus you target them to get them into a promotion to have the chance to do so.
> 
> Historically they've already tried to use II as their internal exchange option which is how we got to the DC anyway.  I don't see that happening, too inefficient and too risky.  And I don't see them developing an additional program completely separate to the DC other than one that flows into the DC.  But if they did it would likely not have equal access for a separate program and get leftovers much like the DVC BVTC system did.  I think the most you'd see would be to maintain the current non DC systems as they are and find a way to shrink them over time.  I could see them enrolling owners who have an underlying week and I could see them enrolling by creating a points grid for those that don't.  As a minimum this would decrease availability for those systems, esp if they're able to siphon off the best weeks for DC availability.


You got one thing def right, I want things to stay the same or at least retain the same options with additional options!


----------



## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> You got one thing def right, I want things to stay the same or at least retain the same options with additional options!



@JIMinNC's visual aid here is excellent! But those who know my TUG style know that it's impossible for me to make a point without using a million words, and since I know others like me who need a million words to understand, here you go. 

What you want is exactly what the existing Marriott Weeks owners got at the DC inception: all rights to their owned Weeks PLUS an offer to enroll them in the newly-developed Marriott-owned/managed DC Exchange Company.

Prior to the DC, with my direct-purchase Weeks I could on an annual basis:
- book them at the home resorts in the season/unit size/view type that was purchased, subject to booking windows and availability, for personal use or to give/rent to others;
- exchange them for the allotment of Marriott Rewards (now known as Bonvoy) Points that was specified in the purchase docs;
- ask Marriott if they want to rent it for me, which there's no guarantee they'll want it and no guarantee of any stipulated price;
- deposit them into the external exchange company with which Marriotts are affiliated, Interval International, to exchange into other Marriotts or non-Marriott timeshares, waiting and hoping that my exchange eventually comes through, that my 3BR non-lockoff unit size returns at least a 2BR at any of the resorts I request and if so, not knowing until the moment of check-in if the timeshare gods have conspired to place me in a unit with a premium view that's equivalent to what I own, the unit with the absolute worst view on property or something in-between, all subject to ever-increasing transaction and upgrade fees AND which II rules prohibit me renting out the intervals obtained from them
_** I'm not high on II - can you tell? **_ ;
- use any other unaffiliated exchange company that I choose to join;
- whatever else I might be missing right now, if anything.

By accepting the offer to enroll my Weeks in the DC via an agreement to pay a one-time Enrollment Fee and an annual DC Club Dues fee, I can now:
- do everything above the exact same way as I could before, including play in the II sandbox with some of those transaction fees waived because the Club Dues fee absorbs them;
OR,
- choose on an annual basis to exchange one or more of my Weeks for the amount of DC Exchange Points that was specified at the time of enrollment, allowing me to make immediate reservations via the DC Exchange Company at the resorts of my choice, for any dates I choose, for any number of days I choose, with the check-in day of the week that I choose, in the unit size I choose, in the unit view type that I choose, according to the DC Points Charts and subject to booking windows and availability, for personal use or to give/rent to others.

In the event an immediate reservation isn't available, I can utilize a Waitlist.

If I don't have enough Points for a desired reservation I can rent/receive as a gift what I need from other DC members, having their Points transferred into my DC account so I have complete control over the points and any reservations made with them.

If I find myself with a surplus I don't need, I can transfer them into other DC Members' accounts or, I can make a reservation with them and offer it to others regardless of whether or not they have a DC account, either option as a rental or gift, the same as could always be done in the Weeks system.

Plus the allotments can be banked/borrowed into other Use Years and used for unique experiences or as credits at some vendors local to certain resorts.

(An added bonus for those who enroll eligible Weeks in the DC that were purchased by them on the external resale market, is that the Marriott Rewards/Bonvoy Points exchange option that is denied to external resales is made available on an every-other-year basis.)

***********

I really do think that the simplest way for MVW to extend DC enrollment to the Vistana/Hyatt owners they picked up in the acquisition is in the same form: an annual option to elect a specified number of DC Exchange Points for use in the DC Exchange Company, as an additional alternative to any of the other options available to them.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@SueDonJ and @JIMinNC These are very helpful explanations. I hope you are right.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

FWIW I read another thread to educate myself on the MVC system. I found these summaries quite helpful:



GoldenVIKE said:


> As our second purchase, we ended up doing something similar to what GRCTahoe was describing.  We purchased a hybrid that ended up being around 30,000 electable points for $3.77/pt and average $0.22 annual MFs.  With what we originally purchased that gives us close to 40,000 total points now.  That's more than we can use until we retire (another 20 years probably!) but renting out excess points on www.vacationpointexchange.com, www.ownertrades.com, and TUG has been pretty easy.
> 
> Arguably had I known about this second type of package initially, I would have just done that and not bought the original hybrid package (4000 DC points + enrolled week = 7850 points for $6.81/pt plus $0.49 annual MFs)... but doing that type of thing as a first purchase is probably not realistic given it's over $100k up front, and I'm not sure if MVCI would even agree to do that for someone that hasn't established a baseline first.  (Good question for their SLC sales office)  As it is, we're likely going to sell our 4000 DC points back and take a loss of around $20k on that piece of it
> 
> Knowing what I know now, here'd be my advice to new MVCI buyers:
> 
> For people that want to spend < $40k, and stay at the same handful of place(s): buy resale weeks and use II to trade if needed.
> For people that want to spend < $40k and stay at many different places: buy resale points
> For people that want to spend > $40k and stay at many different places: buy hybrid package from MVCI
> For people willing to spend > $100k, stay different places, travel like a fiend, and justify ROI: call SLC office and inquire about the kind of thing GRCTahoe and I are describing.





GoldenVIKE said:


> And just to add to above, there are certainly other legit strategies of using MCVI too, which other posters have mentioned, like:
> 
> buy as few points as possible (like 1,000) and then just rent out more points from those points rental sites I mentioned
> don't buy anything at all, and just rent off of redweek.com or similar sites
> if you have lots of Marriott hotel points, just book MVC properties with those points and don't buy into MVCI
> All of these things have pros and cons when it comes to things like booking windows, ability to get in-demand resorts/times/units/views, cost commitment up front, cost commitment in annual dues, how much time and effort is needed to manage system, and how much flexibility to you have in choosing specific data and knowing well in advance when you'll be traveling.
> 
> All that said, I don't really see too many scenarios where buying as straight DC points package direct from MVCI is the BEST option for anyone.




I see the benefits of DC for an invested (or potential to invest) MVC owner, however we are already invested in timeshares in other systems (HGVC) so are reaching the saturation point as to what we can realistically use without having to consistently rent out our units.  Would love to enroll and rent points/trade occasionally for MVC, but if they require us to purchase more DC points or a hybrid, we will probably pass and just use what we own.

If we are able to enroll and rent points, or as @Quilter suggests, working with a Chairman level owner to occasionally rent an MVC unit  would be our favored approach.

Question: If you own a lock-off can you opt to put only one side into DC for the year?


----------



## Fasttr

CalGalTraveler said:


> Question: If you own a lock-off can you opt to put only one side into DC for the year? e.g. put our Maui OF studio in DC for points to get MVC Kauai or Ko Olina for a week. And use the other side of our Westin Maui the other week.


No. It’s all or nothing for each enrolled week.  Can’t just exchange part of a unit for DC points.


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## CalGalTraveler

So that's a downside of DC vs. SOs where you can deposit a lock-off without skim.  Today we can trade our OF studio side via 81,000 SOs for Westin Princeville or Poipu no skim. This gives us one week on Maui OF one bedroom side and one week on Kauai (studio side for a one bedroom!). Thats $1350 a week for all one bedrooms (with one being an OF one bedroom with top ownership view priority).  Can't rent for anywhere near that price during prime HI season.

But no Ko Olina options though.

(We also have options via HGVC for Waikoloa on the Big Island, Waikiki, and eventually Maui to extend a stay too.)


----------



## kds4

CalGalTraveler said:


> FWIW I read another thread to educate myself on the MVC system. I found these summaries quite helpful:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see the benefits of DC for an invested (or potential to invest) MVC owner, however we are already invested in timeshares in other systems (HGVC) so are reaching the saturation point as to what we can realistically use without having to consistently rent out our units.  Would love to enroll and rent points/trade occasionally for MVC, but if they require us to purchase more DC points or a hybrid, we will probably pass and just use what we own.
> 
> If we are able to enroll and rent points, or as @Quilter suggests, working with a Chairman level owner to occasionally rent the MVC unit we need would be our favored approach.
> 
> Question: If you own a lock-off can you opt to put only one side into DC for the year?



No. You don't have put your entire portfolio into DC points (if you own multiple weeks), but you do have to convert entire units (whether they are lock-offs or not).


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## SueDonJ

CalGalTraveler said:


> So that's a downside of DC vs. SOs where you can deposit a lock-off without skim.  Today we can trade our OF studio via 81,000 SOs for Westin Princeville or Poipu no skim. This gives us one week on Maui OF and one week on Kauai (studio) for $1350 a week. (but no Ko Olina)
> 
> (We also have options for HGVC for Waikoloa on the Big Island, Waikiki, and eventually Maui)



Just to note that DC Points allotments for lock-off units don't even stipulate amounts per component, only a single amount for the entire unit. Like Fasttr says, it's all or nothing, and there is specific wording in the governing docs to that extent.


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## Ken555

SueDonJ said:


> Just to note that DC Points allotments for lock-off units don't even stipulate amounts per component, only a single amount for the entire unit. Like Fasttr says, it's all or nothing, and there is specific wording in the governing docs to that extent.



If you opt to deposit in II, is there still a lock off fee? If so, that’s another charge we don’t have with Vistana.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SueDonJ

CalGalTraveler said:


> So that's a downside of DC vs. SOs where you can deposit a lock-off without skim.  Today we can trade our OF studio side via 81,000 SOs for Westin Princeville or Poipu no skim. This gives us one week on Maui OF one bedroom side and one week on Kauai (studio for a one bedroom!) for $1350 a week. (but no Ko Olina)
> 
> (We also have options for HGVC for Waikoloa on the Big Island, Waikiki, and eventually Maui to extend a stay.)



This is a basic question that's maybe getting ahead of the curve but, is your ownership in the form of a deeded Week which allows for an SO exchange benefit, or, is it specifically deeded as SO's with a home resort advantage?

The reason I ask could be the difference between a possible DC enrollment for you that's based on a Week->DC Points exchange or an SO's->DC Points exchange. If it's a Weeks-based deed then your election would be *either* to DC Points *or* to SO's, meaning your allotment would be based on the Week and maybe not on the equivalent value of its SO's. If it's an SO's-based ownership, the DC Points value could be per SO.

As for skim, it's inherent in the DC system. I'd expect it no matter what may be offered.


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## CalGalTraveler

@SueDonJ Hmm, difficult to definitively answer...we own a deeded week. It converts automatically at 8 months to 178,000 Staroptions (or 81k studio, 97,000 1 bdrm if partial conversion) in the SVN program if the home week is not used. I would presume that if we enrolled in DC and opted to convert that year the entire value of the week would convert - but would have 12 month reservations priority with skim(?) but lower view priority into my resort instead of 8 mos no skim to other islands, and 12 mo guaranteed owner OF view priority on Maui via lockoff.


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## TheTimeTraveler

Ken555 said:


> If you opt to deposit in II, is there still a lock off fee? If so, that’s another charge we don’t have with Vistana.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk






Enrolled weeks NO.   Unenrolled weeks YES.




.


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## SueDonJ

Ken555 said:


> If you opt to deposit in II, is there still a lock off fee? If so, that’s another charge we don’t have with Vistana.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



In the Marriott system there's a lock-off transaction fee for un-enrolled Weeks. If enrolled, that fee is absorbed by the DC Club Dues fee regardless of whether you use the components or deposit them into II.

A couple things to note about II: DC Members are assigned a corporate II account in addition to their existing individual II account. Its platform looks and functions exactly the same as that of the individual accounts, but only the enrolled Weeks can be exchanged via the new account, and the transaction fees are absorbed by the DC Club Dues fee only if exchanges are to same-branded timeshares. So if you have other non-DC-enrolled intervals for which you use II and you still want to take advantage of the fee waivers, you'll have to keep both your individual and corporate II accounts, paying the membership and per-transaction fees for any non-DC affiliated ownerships. And, if you exchange your enrolled Week via its corporate II account to other-branded timeshares, transaction fees will be assessed. (For everyone under the MVW umbrella, the question will be whether "other-branded" means anything other than the brand of each specific enrolled Week, or instead, any brand that doesn't come under the MVW umbrella.)


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## SueDonJ

CalGalTraveler said:


> @SueDonJ Hmm, difficult to definitively answer...we own a deeded week. It converts automatically at 8 months to 178,000 Staroptions (or 81k studio, 97,000 1 bdrm if partial conversion) in the SVN program if the home week is not used. I would presume that if we enrolled in DC and opted to convert that year the entire value of the week would convert - but would have 12 month reservations priority instead of 8 plus skim.


Again, thinking only in terms of simplicity and acknowledging that anybody else's guess is as good as mine,  , I would expect that any DC enrollment option offered to you will be based on exchanging the Week for DC Points with its SO value being irrelevant.


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## Dean

CPNY said:


> You got one thing def right, I want things to stay the same or at least retain the same options with additional options!


And I personally think that's very unlikely over time, it might be so early on, we'll see.


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## pchung6

SueDonJ said:


> Again, thinking only in terms of simplicity and acknowledging that anybody else's guess is as good as mine,  , I would expect that any DC enrollment option offered to you will be based on exchanging the Week for DC Points with its SO value being irrelevant.



After reading all these DC explanations you mentioned above, it confirms I just want to stay with VSN and have no piece of Marriott DC. I don't want anything from Marriott or DC points, only thing there I find attractive is probably only renting points for staying additional 1-2 nights. I can easily compliment this by using reward points booking or just do cash reservation.

Also there are just a handful of resorts I want to stay and that's all Westins, I don't need anything from Marriott. I do like MKO but I can go there using my ownership and that's it. I hope Marriott can leave VSN independent for as long as possible and I will be totally fine without DC.


----------



## Dean

pchung6 said:


> After reading all these DC explanations you mentioned above, it confirms I just want to stay with VSN and have no piece of Marriott DC. I don't want anything from Marriott or DC points, only thing there I find attractive is probably only renting points for staying additional 1-2 nights. I can easily compliment this by using reward points booking or just do cash reservation.
> 
> Also there are just a handful of resorts I want to stay and that's all Westins, I don't need anything from Marriott. I do like MKO but I can go there using my ownership and that's it. I hope Marriott can leave VSN independent for as long as possible and I will be totally fine without DC.


What if they separate Vistana and Westin so you can't book directly with the other?


----------



## SueDonJ

pchung6 said:


> After reading all these DC explanations you mentioned above, it confirms I just want to stay with VSN and have no piece of Marriott DC. I don't want anything from Marriott or DC points, only thing there I find attractive is probably only renting points for staying more 1-2 nights. I can easily compliment this by using reward points booking or just do cash reservation.
> 
> Also there are just a handful of resorts I want to stay and that's all Westins, I don't need anything from Marriott. I do like MKO but I can go there using my ownership and that's it. I hope Marriott can leave VSN independent for as long as possible and I will be totally fine without DC.



It's good you have the benefit of considering a whole mess of "what-ifs" before the fact.  But if there's a rollout of something new, keep an open mind then to how it works and whether it offers usage value specific to your intended needs. At the Marriott rollout there really was an immediate and visceral dislike by the overwhelming majority, followed slowly by many who came to understand that it worked better for them than previous exchange options had worked and/or that it offered ancillary benefits that were too good to pass up (like II transaction fee waivers and DC Points transfer/rental possibilities.) No doubt the DC still doesn't work for everybody and I'd never suggest that everybody should just jump in head-first without a moment's thought, but looking ahead with a bias either for or against might actually get in the way of what's best for you.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Dean said:


> What if they separate Vistana and Westin so you can't book directly with the other?



Do you mean separating Sheraton and Westin resorts? Why would they do that? Anyway wouldn't matter to us because we want to trade all Westins. Would never use our expensive Maui SO points on a Sheraton. Would affect the SVV buyers who arbitrage into Westins though.

Or do you mean taking away the SO program? That would present a host of legal problems as discussed earlier in this thread because the CC&Rs of the mandatory resorts (>25% of SVN - mostly Westins) require participation in a points program that can be passed onto resale buyers. I doubt MVC would encumber DC with that responsibility vs. grandfathering the SO program.  Even Diamond and Wyndham wouldn't pull a stunt like that with an acquisition.


----------



## pchung6

Dean said:


> What if they separate Vistana and Westin so you can't book directly with the other?



They can shut down VSN, then I'm done. I hope it is 10 years from now. Seriously I really don't see anything VSN owners can benefit from Marriott DC beside few owners might want go to Aruba.  I don't see these other offering such as Pulse or AP locations really appealing to VSN people, these just are not natural fit to SVN style. These resorts in Spain could be good, but I don't know too much about it.


----------



## pchung6

SueDonJ said:


> At the Marriott rollout there really was an immediate and visceral dislike by the overwhelming majority, followed slowly by many who came to understand that it worked better for them than previous exchange options had worked and/or that it offered ancillary benefits that were too good to pass up (like II transaction fee waivers and DC Points transfer/rental possibilities.)



Totally agreed with everything you said here since no one likes to change. I purchased my first timeshare from Starwood, very expensive, and later found out this site about resale.  That's how I started to understand timeshare and fell in love with Starwood timeshare.  Currently whatever I can do with my VSN membership and online account is exactly fitting my lifestyle, budget, and vacation needs. 100% satisfied. I live in a dream with my VSN account. It is very very difficult to alter my plan that has been working perfectly and adopt to new DC who knows what Marriott will bring to the table. 

Yes it is fear and uncertainty.


----------



## SueDonJ

pchung6 said:


> Totally agreed with everything you said here since no one likes to change. I purchased my first timeshare from Starwood, very expensive, and later found out this site about resale.  That's how I started to understand timeshare and fell in love with Starwood timeshare.  Currently whatever I can do with my VSN membership and online account is exactly fitting my lifestyle, budget, and vacation needs. 100% satisfied. I live in a dream with my VSN account. It is very very difficult to alter my plan that has been working perfectly and adopt to new DC who knows what Marriott will bring to the table.
> 
> Yes it is fear and uncertainty.



Completely understandable.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

The biggest difference between 2010 and now is that MVC owners had no point program alternatives so MVC could charge to enroll (even if it was nominal) because the value proposition was significant.

For SVN, a points program already exists with SOs and it may be superior to DC due to lack of skim, partial point lock-off capability, grandfathering mandatory resales, and relative property point valuations. The value proposition MVC offers will need to cross a high threshold and not take away owner rights in order to incent a broad base of owners to enroll beyond a few token units for their marketing literature. Of course, voluntary properties and those without lock-offs will have a lower threshold. 12 month reservations and ability to rent points are positive attributes of DC especially for VSN arbitragers.


----------



## pchung6

CalGalTraveler said:


> The biggest difference between 2010 and now is that MVC owners had no point program alternatives so MVC could charge to enroll (even if it was nominal) because the value proposition was significant.
> 
> For SVN, a points program already exists with SOs and it may be superior to DC due to lack of skim, partial point lock-off capability, grandfathering mandatory resales, and relative property point valuations. The value proposition MVC offers will need to cross a high threshold and not take away owner rights in order to incent a broad base of owners to enroll beyond a few token units for their marketing literature. Of course, voluntary properties and those without lock-offs will have a lower threshold.



Exactly. SVN SOs is already superior to DC for most owners, why break if it is working?  The only advantages I see are points renting and week-to-week free exchange, which I can live without.


----------



## ocdb8r

I'm really surprised at the lack of interest in gaining access to the DC points portfolio.  I, of course, expect everyone will make their own cost benefit analysis, but as an SVN owner, there are a number of MVC properties it would be nice to have access to (even if only for an occasional change of pace).  I would think places like:

Aruba
Newport Coast
St. Kitts
Spain
Italy (oops - confused with HGVC on this one; no MVC in Italy)
Thailand
Ko Olina
Hilton Head
Williamsburg
Park City
Las Vegas
All compliment our current SVN portfolio fairly well.  I am also not personally interested in the Pulse offering as I think hotel and AirBnB options are more attractive in city centers, but there's enough variety in the above locations that I'd probably be interested in electing for DC points every 3 years or so (and there are some sufficiently invested in timeshares that I suspect some would also welcome the ability to use their points at the urban Pulse locations).



CalGalTraveler said:


> The biggest difference between 2010 and now is that MVC owners had no point program alternatives so MVC could charge to enroll (even if it was nominal) because the value proposition was significant.



I also don't fully understand why there is a hang up about the potential enrollment cost.  When I purchased my first mandatory SVN week (resale) I had to pay a $399 SVN enrollment fee.  That's not terribly far off the $595 MVC charged developer purchased weeks to join the DC program.


----------



## JIMinNC

ocdb8r said:


> I'm really surprised at the lack of interest in gaining access to the DC points portfolio.  I, of course, expect everyone will make their own cost benefit analysis, but as an SVN owner, there are a number of MVC properties it would be nice to have access to (even if only for an occasional change of pace).  I would think places like:
> 
> Aruba
> Newport Coast
> St. Kitts
> Spain
> Italy
> Thailand
> Ko Olina
> Hilton Head
> Williamsburg
> Park City
> Las Vegas
> All compliment our current SVN portfolio fairly well.  I am also not personally interested in the Pulse offering as I think hotel and AirBnB options are more attractive in city centers, but there's enough variety in the above locations that I'd probably be interested in electing for DC points every 3 years or so (and there are some sufficiently invested in timeshares that I suspect some would also welcome the ability to use their points at the urban Pulse locations)



No MVC in Italy. There is one in Paris, near the Disney park.


----------



## bazzap

ocdb8r said:


> I'm really surprised at the lack of interest in gaining access to the DC points portfolio.  I, of course, expect everyone will make their own cost benefit analysis, but as an SVN owner, there are a number of MVC properties it would be nice to have access to (even if only for an occasional change of pace).  I would think places like:
> 
> Aruba
> Newport Coast
> St. Kitts
> Spain
> Italy
> Thailand
> Ko Olina
> Hilton Head
> Williamsburg
> Park City
> Las Vegas
> All compliment our current SVN portfolio fairly well.  I am also not personally interested in the Pulse offering as I think hotel and AirBnB options are more attractive in city centers, but there's enough variety in the above locations that I'd probably be interested in electing for DC points every 3 years or so (and there are some sufficiently invested in timeshares that I suspect some would also welcome the ability to use their points at the urban Pulse locations).
> 
> 
> 
> I also don't fully understand why there is a hang up about the potential enrollment cost.  When I purchased my first mandatory SVN week (resale) I had to pay a $399 SVN enrollment fee.  That's not terribly far off the $595 MVC charged developer purchased weeks to join the DC program.


A good choice of MVC properties haha
This includes all 5 of the home resorts we own at


----------



## CPNY

ocdb8r said:


> I'm really surprised at the lack of interest in gaining access to the DC points portfolio.  I, of course, expect everyone will make their own cost benefit analysis, but as an SVN owner, there are a number of MVC properties it would be nice to have access to (even if only for an occasional change of pace).  I would think places like:
> 
> Aruba
> Newport Coast
> St. Kitts
> Spain
> Italy (oops - confused with HGVC on this one; no MVC in Italy)
> Thailand
> Ko Olina
> Hilton Head
> Williamsburg
> Park City
> Las Vegas
> All compliment our current SVN portfolio fairly well.  I am also not personally interested in the Pulse offering as I think hotel and AirBnB options are more attractive in city centers, but there's enough variety in the above locations that I'd probably be interested in electing for DC points every 3 years or so (and there are some sufficiently invested in timeshares that I suspect some would also welcome the ability to use their points at the urban Pulse locations).
> 
> 
> 
> I also don't fully understand why there is a hang up about the potential enrollment cost.  When I purchased my first mandatory SVN week (resale) I had to pay a $399 SVN enrollment fee.  That's not terribly far off the $595 MVC charged developer purchased weeks to join the DC program.


Resorts in Thailand are pretty inexpensive. Spending a week in Phuket doesn’t seem appealing when there are amazing islands to explore. As far and Europe, I’d much rather an airbnb and be in the heart of the city, but that’s just me. The island of St Kitts doesn’t compare with Bahamas or St John. Park city would be great to go to as well as Aruba!!


----------



## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> It's good you have the benefit of considering a whole mess of "what-ifs" before the fact.  But if there's a rollout of something new, keep an open mind then to how it works and whether it offers usage value specific to your intended needs. At the Marriott rollout there really was an immediate and visceral dislike by the overwhelming majority, followed slowly by many who came to understand that it worked better for them than previous exchange options had worked and/or that it offered ancillary benefits that were too good to pass up (like II transaction fee waivers and DC Points transfer/rental possibilities.) No doubt the DC still doesn't work for everybody and I'd never suggest that everybody should just jump in head-first without a moment's thought, but looking ahead with a bias either for or against might actually get in the way of what's best for you.


Just heard from someone who went on another MVC owners update sales presentation. They said the rep said by the end of the year VSN would be incorporated but only available to chairman level only (not sure if I’m getting the status level right). Obviously that is most likely a sales scare tactic to get them to buy more now, which is sad considering it’s most likely a lie. However the Vistana reps were trying to sell me hard on achieving elite status. This joint program or incorporated access could be just for those who are at that level. Just a thought. I think (hope) they will keep both DC and VSN separate and keep a third combined access for those who pay up!


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> They can shut down VSN, then I'm done. I hope it is 10 years from now. Seriously I really don't see anything VSN owners can benefit from Marriott DC beside few owners might want go to Aruba.  I don't see these other offering such as Pulse or AP locations really appealing to VSN people, these just are not natural fit to SVN style. These resorts in Spain could be good, but I don't know too much about it.


I read on another thread that there are migrants sleeping on the beach chairs during the day in Spain and the staff does nothing about it. Wouldn’t shock me.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> After reading all these DC explanations you mentioned above, it confirms I just want to stay with VSN and have no piece of Marriott DC. I don't want anything from Marriott or DC points, only thing there I find attractive is probably only renting points for staying additional 1-2 nights. I can easily compliment this by using reward points booking or just do cash reservation.
> 
> Also there are just a handful of resorts I want to stay and that's all Westins, I don't need anything from Marriott. I do like MKO but I can go there using my ownership and that's it. I hope Marriott can leave VSN independent for as long as possible and I will be totally fine without DC.


I actually only care about the harborside resort. I go there 2-3 times a year if I can.


----------



## bazzap

CPNY said:


> I read on another thread that there are migrants sleeping on the beach chairs during the day in Spain and the staff does nothing about it. Wouldn’t shock me.


You really really don’t want to believe everything you read.
If as Europeans we did that, we would never dare go to most of the US or the Caribbean let alone Mexico for fear of our safety.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I wonder what % of SVN owners own only SVN? Such owners would likely value the additional DC locations much higher than people like us who also own HGVC or other points programs.

For example, If I overlay our interests and HGVC points program ownership there are lots of alternatives but some areas of interest in *Bold.*

*Aruba -* _Yes, but only will go there once given time zones so could rent_
Newport Coast - Maybe_, or at HGVC Carlsbad locations._
St. Kitts - _We could substitute Tradewinds Cruise via HGVC/RCI, St. John (Westin) or HGVC Barbados Crane_
*Ritz St. Thomas (added) *_Would love this but I don't think we will have enough points in DC to reserve with one SVN VOI._
*Spain -* _Yes  (HGVC has Algarve, Portugal with limited avail.)_
Italy (no MVC in Italy) - _HGVC Tuscany - been there. Lovely property._
Thailand - _Maybe._
*Ko Olina - *_*Yes, if they build an Atlantis next door *(would prefer HI instead of Bahamas from Calif.)_
Hilton Head - _No, Never from Calif_
Williamsburg - _No Never from Calif_
*Park City *- _Mountainside is nice but can also stay at HGVC Sunrise at Canyons. More short stay ski options good._
*Colorado ski weekends *_- These would be of interest. More options beyond Westin Avon, HGVC Breck options_
Las Vegas - _GC is fantastic but HGVC has more options e.g. Elara across the street, Blvd, Paradise, Trump plus cash getaways._
*San Francisco - *No HGVC announced yet. Can stay on hotel points.
Scotland, Japan ( HGVC has those)
NYC (HGVC will have 5 timeshare properties next year in the Big Apple = availability)
Mexico (Cabo, Cancun, PV) HGVC, SVN 

Plus Fiji, French Polynesia and Panama on Tradewinds Cruise (HGVC/RCI trade with great value)

I am hopeful that enrollment and annual fee will be a nominal incremental cost so we could just sign up and move on. If they try to charge more or require points/hybrid purchase then it will be a very high threshold to cross given alternatives.


----------



## pchung6

ocdb8r said:


> Aruba _- Good_
> Newport Coast _- Good resort, but I can go to Hawaii for the same points._
> St. Kitts _- I pass, no thank you_
> Spain _- I take different route if I vacation in Europe, not timeshare_
> Thailand _- You can book much better villas for less than $100/night. _
> Ko Olina _- Good_
> Hilton Head _- Isn't this always available with cheap AC or cheap Getaway?_
> Williamsburg _- Isn't this always available with cheap AC or cheap Getaway?_
> Park City _- Isn't this always available with cheap AC or cheap Getaway?_
> Las Vegas _- I always find good last minute deals on Interval including X'mas week._



My comments for these locations.


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## CPNY

bazzap said:


> You really really don’t want to believe everything you read.
> If as Europeans we did that, we would never dare go to most of the US or the Caribbean let alone Mexico for fear of our safety.


There are a 2 facts in my statement. 

1. I read it  
2. It wouldn’t shock me 

Whether or not it’s true, I’d have to see it with my own eyes.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> My comments for these locations.


I completely agree with you assessments 

One question, there is no way you can get a ski week on a getaway in park city, can you? I’ve never looked. I would assume that’s hard to get.


----------



## bazzap

CPNY said:


> Resorts in Thailand are pretty inexpensive. Spending a week in Phuket doesn’t seem appealing when there are amazing islands to explore. As far and Europe, I’d much rather an airbnb and be in the heart of the city, but that’s just me. The island of St Kitts doesn’t compare with Bahamas or St John. Park city would be great to go to as well as Aruba!!


Some resorts in Thailand are pretty inexpensive, most of the really good ones are definitely not.
By way of example, these are just in Phuket.
https://luxuryhotel.world/phuket/si...MIitm6lvm34wIVweF3Ch21TQepEAAYAiAAEgIQkfD_BwE
I absolutely loved St John, more so than the Bahamas and I far prefer the traditional and laid back  Caribbean feel of St Kitts to Aruba, but I guess it is good that we all have different preferences.


----------



## Ken555

SueDonJ said:


> In the Marriott system there's a lock-off transaction fee for un-enrolled Weeks. If enrolled, that fee is absorbed by the DC Club Dues fee regardless of whether you use the components or deposit them into II.
> 
> A couple things to note about II: DC Members are assigned a corporate II account in addition to their existing individual II account. Its platform looks and functions exactly the same as that of the individual accounts, but only the enrolled Weeks can be exchanged via the new account, and the transaction fees are absorbed by the DC Club Dues fee only if exchanges are to same-branded timeshares. So if you have other non-DC-enrolled intervals for which you use II and you still want to take advantage of the fee waivers, you'll have to keep both your individual and corporate II accounts, paying the membership and per-transaction fees for any non-DC affiliated ownerships. And, if you exchange your enrolled Week via its corporate II account to other-branded timeshares, transaction fees will be assessed. (For everyone under the MVW umbrella, the question will be whether "other-branded" means anything other than the brand of each specific enrolled Week, or instead, any brand that doesn't come under the MVW umbrella.)



I have two II accounts, one paid by Vistana for my WKV week and one I pay for with my SDO weeks. This is not too dissimilar to what we have now, though I believe we are assessed trade fees if we exchange via II of our “enrolled” weeks (I never do that since the value would be lower).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CPNY

bazzap said:


> Some resorts in Thailand are pretty inexpensive, most of the really good ones are definitely not.
> By way of example, these are just in Phuket.
> https://luxuryhotel.world/phuket/si...MIitm6lvm34wIVweF3Ch21TQepEAAYAiAAEgIQkfD_BwE
> I absolutely loved St John, more so than the Bahamas and I far prefer the traditional and laid back  Caribbean feel of St Kitts to Aruba, but I guess it is good that we all have different preferences.


I agree with laid back Caribbean. I prefer Exuma or eluthera to everything in the Caribbean. I only care for Bahamas because it’s a quick flight and getting to the Atlantis much cheaper than what people pay in a hotel there makes it that much better. 

When I do SE Asia I’m traveling around. Longest I’ve stayed in a place was 5 days in Chiang Mai. Lucked out with Na Nirand Boutique hotel. They opened a month earlier and I paid 650 for m-f. It’s quadruple that price now.


----------



## CPNY

some MVC resorts are def desirable. But can booking them be had cheaper than the DC buy in and maint fee?


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## CPNY

bazzap said:


> Some resorts in Thailand are pretty inexpensive, most of the really good ones are definitely not.
> By way of example, these are just in Phuket.
> https://luxuryhotel.world/phuket/si...MIitm6lvm34wIVweF3Ch21TQepEAAYAiAAEgIQkfD_BwE
> I absolutely loved St John, more so than the Bahamas and I far prefer the traditional and laid back  Caribbean feel of St Kitts to Aruba, but I guess it is good that we all have different preferences.



Just checked that link, some amazing resorts. Now I want to go back to Thailand! Phuket Marriott two bedroom pool villa $1,742  2/29-3/7 and $1,269 without plunge pool. 

Tell me, how many DC points it takes to get those dates in a two bedroom? Is the maint fee more or less than $1,269 for the same?


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## pchung6

CPNY said:


> I completely agree with you assessments
> 
> One question, there is no way you can get a ski week on a getaway in park city, can you? I’ve never looked. I would assume that’s hard to get.



I don't ski anymore.  If I do, I'm sorry but I pick Westin Riverfront instead of park city.  I'm sure it is more difficult to book than park city.


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## Ken555

My opinion on these locations below:


Aruba: been there once for a few days prior to departure on a Windstar transatlantic cruise. I don’t see any reason to return. Hawaii is closer and nicer.
Newport Coast: I live in LA, so have no interest in using points to go here. Besides, I’ve been able to trade into the Four Seasons nearby three times using a 1-bed SDO for a 2-bed Four Seasons. 
St. Kitts: I would like to visit here at least once, but there’s lots of availability in II and since I don’t travel during school holidays don’t see the reason to use points to get here.
Spain: like St Kitts, I see lots of availability in II.
Italy (oops - confused with HGVC on this one; no MVC in Italy): I get to Italy often in recent years, and two trips planned for later this year. No need for any timeshare in Italy.
Thailand: maybe...I’ve been there once and would like to return for a week, but I’ve seen the resorts (including the one in Bangkok) available for trades in II, and while it may not be during the best season, I’m okay with that.
Ko Olina: sure, at least once, but I’m very pleased with WKORV and WPV.
Hilton Head: II getaway...I wouldn’t even use a SDO 1-bed to trade unless I had extra weeks.
Williamsburg: II getaway... 
Park City: perhaps, though I’m not skiing as much as I used to. 
Las Vegas: are you kidding? I’ve stayed at the Marriott LV several times with SDO 1-bed exchange and as getaway. I don’t see any reason to use points here.

So...I don’t see much use of the Marriott program for me other than via II. Happy with Vistana, and hope my current exchange capability remains the same.



> I also don't fully understand why there is a hang up about the potential enrollment cost.  When I purchased my first mandatory SVN week (resale) I had to pay a $399 SVN enrollment fee.  That's not terribly far off the $595 MVC charged developer purchased weeks to join the DC program.



I don’t recall paying any fee, much less $399, to enroll my mandatory week. Are you sure you’re not confusing this with closing costs?




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## pchung6

CPNY said:


> Just checked that link, some amazing resorts. Now I want to go back to Thailand! Phuket Marriott two bedroom pool villa $1,742  2/29-3/7 and $1,269 without plunge pool.
> 
> Tell me, how many DC points it takes to get those dates in a two bedroom? Is the maint fee more or less than $1,269 for the same?



If you go to Thailand, you have to stay at local regional hotel chain like Anantara, don't do Marriott please.


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## CalGalTraveler

pchung6 said:


> If you go to Thailand, you have to stay at local regional hotel chain like Anantara, don't do Marriott please.



Anantara has (had?) an affiliate relationship with HGVC for Thailand, Bali and New Zealand so you could use your HGVC points to stay there. Not sure if they still have this relationship. The photos had beautiful suites with private plunge pools.


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## pchung6

Let me make another list to look at Vistana Sheraton/Westin Resorts that I copied from TUG.  I don't know, I just think this list is more attractive.

SVN Mandatory
WKORV – Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas
WKORVN – Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas North
WKV – Westin Kierland Villas
WSJ – Westin St. John, Virgin Grand
HRA – Harborside Resort at Atlantis
SVV – Sheraton Vistana Village

SVN Voluntary
WNA - The Westin Nanea Ocean Villas
WMH – Westin Mission Hills
SDO – Sheraton Desert Oasis
SVR – Sheraton Vistana Resort
SMV – Sheraton Mountain Vista
SBP – Sheraton Broadway Plantation
SPGA – Sheraton PGA Vacation Resort
LT – Lakeside Terrace
WLR – Westin Lagunamar Ocean Resort
WRSC - Westin Resort & Spa, Cancun
WX2 - Westin Los Cabos Resort Villas & Spa
WPV - Westin Resort & Spa, Puerto Vallarta
WPORV – Westin Princeville Ocean Resort Villas
WDW – Westin Desert Willow
WAV – Westin Aruba Ocean Villas (Palm Beach, Aruba) - indefinitely on hold
WRF - The Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas
VBC – Vistana's Beach Club


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## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> I don't ski anymore.  If I do, I'm sorry but I pick Westin Riverfront instead of park city.  I'm sure it is more difficult to book than park city.


Yeah, Westin Riverfront is really hard to get into ski week. I even looked for a deeded week but haven’t seen many on resale and the ones I have were very expensive. I almost bought Westin flex just for Westin riverfront ski week


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> If you go to Thailand, you have to stay at local regional hotel chain like Anantara, don't do Marriott please.


Of course I would stay in a place like anantara. They are amazing.


----------



## SGould

ocdb8r said:


> I'm really surprised at the lack of interest in gaining access to the DC points portfolio.  I, of course, expect everyone will make their own cost benefit analysis, but as an SVN owner, there are a number of MVC properties it would be nice to have access to (even if only for an occasional change of pace).  I would think places like:
> 
> Aruba
> Newport Coast
> St. Kitts
> Spain
> Italy (oops - confused with HGVC on this one; no MVC in Italy)
> Thailand
> Ko Olina
> Hilton Head
> Williamsburg
> Park City
> Las Vegas
> All compliment our current SVN portfolio fairly well.  I am also not personally interested in the Pulse offering as I think hotel and AirBnB options are more attractive in city centers, but there's enough variety in the above locations that I'd probably be interested in electing for DC points every 3 years or so (and there are some sufficiently invested in timeshares that I suspect some would also welcome the ability to use their points at the urban Pulse locations).



I agree I am very interested in expanded vacation choices.


----------



## sail27bill

I am also interested in expanded vacation choices, especially the east coast resorts.  I have stayed in a number of Marriotts (by exchange and getaways) and I have found their quality to be on par with Starwood--some even better!  My only concern is that with Marriott taking over, what changes will they bring. 

When they merged the hotel side with Starwood, suddenly it became much more expensive to book using reward points.  Also, they started incorporating black out periods.  I just tried to book a room using points and I couldn't even though rooms were available.  Under Starwood, there was no blackout periods, even during peak weeks.  Furthermore, Marriott point valuations went through the roof on some Westin hotels I regularly stay at.  Lack of competition truly hurts the consumer, and Vistana has a great timeshare system.  I hope it isn't impacted they way the hotel side was.

If the cost to enroll is fair, I will gladly pay it.  Although I have had great success with II, the waiting game isn't one that appeals to me.  If I can get confirmed through the DC, with fair point allocations and avoid II, I would gladly pay for the convenience.  I just hope that Vistana owners are given a fair shake.  I don't want to feel disappointed which is what I felt when the hotels merged.  Still great quality hotels, but more expensive to my wallet.  Hopefully, Marriott will do things right and make most everyone happy.  And do it fairly and cost effective. Only time will tell.  Staying positive.....

Anita


----------



## JIMinNC

pchung6 said:


> My comments for these locations.
> 
> 
> Aruba _- Good_
> Newport Coast _- Good resort, but I can go to Hawaii for the same points._
> St. Kitts _- I pass, no thank you_
> Spain _- I take different route if I vacation in Europe, not timeshare_
> Thailand _- You can book much better villas for less than $100/night. _
> Ko Olina _- Good_
> Hilton Head _- Isn't this always available with cheap AC or cheap Getaway?_
> Williamsburg _- Isn't this always available with cheap AC or cheap Getaway?_
> Park City _- Isn't this always available with cheap AC or cheap Getaway?_
> Las Vegas _- I always find good last minute deals on Interval including X'mas week._



Just a few comments as food for thought. Not to dispute your thoughts, because everyone has different preferences and likes/dislikes, but just some things to consider:

Spain - the Spain resorts are not designed to "see" Europe. They were located in a popular vacation area where Europeans vacationed back when MVC was trying to build a European network. Based on the comments made in the earnings calls, they have no interest in expanding in Europe now. These are more resorts/beach resorts like in other MVC locations. We would like to visit sometime as a base to see Gibraltar, Sevilla, and see what a European beach resort is like.
Hilton Head Island - You can get Hilton Head with a cheap Getaway in the winter when its cold, but good luck during spring/fall golf season or summer beach season. Summer in the Hilton Head Marriotts is one of the toughest things to book in all of MVC, and MVC has eight resorts there. Spring is a little easier, but still not "easy". You should also note that other than the brand new HGVC Ocean Oak (which is also a tough get in HGVC) the four ocean-facing Marriott's are the only quality timeshares in HHI on the beach. There is one so-so resort called Island Club that has beach access, but we've stayed there and weren't impressed. Not MVC or VSE quality by any stretch.  
Park City - I don't ski, but ski season in Park City is tough based on what I've read. Book early.
Las Vegas - the advantage of having points-based access in Vegas is you can go for 3-4 nights or less. A full week in Vegas seems like a lot.


----------



## pchung6

JIMinNC said:


> Hilton Head Island - You can get Hilton Head with a cheap Getaway in the winter when its cold, but good luck during spring/fall golf season or summer beach season. Summer in the Hilton Head Marriotts is one of the toughest things to book in all of MVC, and MVC has eight resorts there. Spring is a little easier, but still not "easy". You should also note that other than the brand new HGVC Ocean Oak (which is also a tough get in HGVC) the four ocean-facing Marriott's are the only quality timeshares in HHI on the beach. There is one so-so resort called Island Club that has beach access, but we've stayed there and weren't impressed. Not MVC or VSE quality by any stretch.



I've never been to Hilton Head Island, but it sounds like a fabulous place to visit.  I fly to Charlotte for work often, I might need to make a weekend stop at HHI next time.


----------



## JIMinNC

pchung6 said:


> Let me make another list to look at Vistana Sheraton/Westin Resorts that I copied from TUG.  I don't know, I just think this list is more attractive.
> 
> SVN Mandatory
> WKORV – Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas
> WKORVN – Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas North
> WKV – Westin Kierland Villas
> WSJ – Westin St. John, Virgin Grand
> HRA – Harborside Resort at Atlantis
> SVV – Sheraton Vistana Village
> 
> SVN Voluntary
> WNA - The Westin Nanea Ocean Villas
> WMH – Westin Mission Hills
> SDO – Sheraton Desert Oasis
> SVR – Sheraton Vistana Resort
> SMV – Sheraton Mountain Vista
> SBP – Sheraton Broadway Plantation
> SPGA – Sheraton PGA Vacation Resort
> LT – Lakeside Terrace
> WLR – Westin Lagunamar Ocean Resort
> WRSC - Westin Resort & Spa, Cancun
> WX2 - Westin Los Cabos Resort Villas & Spa
> WPV - Westin Resort & Spa, Puerto Vallarta
> WDW – Westin Desert Willow
> WAV – Westin Aruba Ocean Villas (Palm Beach, Aruba) - indefinitely on hold
> WRF - The Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas
> VBC – Vistana's Beach Club



It's nice list for sure, and there's a few places there we would love to try if and when we could use our MVC ownership to cross-book:

WKORVN – Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas/North -- _Would consider trying these out as a second Maui week to pair with our EOY Odd at Maui Ocean Club or as a separate trip in Even years, but we like MOC location on Kaanapali better_
WSJ – Westin St. John, Virgin Grand -- _Would love to stay here, but I've heard it's even tough to book in VSN if you don't own there; not holding my breath_
HRA – Harborside Resort at Atlantis -- _Would like to try this one, but not sure we would like what I perceive to be a theme-park like atmosphere at Atlantis; but would try it if we could get in as we might be surprised _
WNA - The Westin Nanea Ocean Villas --_ See WKORV/N above_
WX2 - Westin Los Cabos Resort Villas & Spa -- _The one place on the list we've stayed - twice (on sales pkgs); love it, but after staying at the Fiesta Americana with our HGVC points, the Westin (while nicer, newer accommodations) seemed to have less energy_

That's pretty much it for me in VSE, except that if we could cross book easily, I would be open to trying any of the others as alternatives to the MVC in the same area, I just am not willing to pay a lot for that right. But for our preferences, the big missing pieces in VSE are:

- No south shore Kauai, no Big Island (so we bought HGVC for Big Island)
- No Hilton Head
- No west coast of Florida
- No Aruba
- No SoCal coastal
- Plus some of the other places like Spain, Palm Beach, St Kitts, Vegas, Paris, and the Pulse locations are places it would be nice to go, although they don't drive our decisions/priorities

Bottom line, VSE owners tend to be VSE owners because the VSE network fits their needs best, and conversely, MVC owners tend to be MVC owners because the MVC network fits their needs best.


----------



## Dean

CalGalTraveler said:


> Do you mean separating Sheraton and Westin resorts? Why would they do that? Anyway wouldn't matter to us because we want to trade all Westins. Would never use our expensive Maui SO points on a Sheraton. Would affect the SVV buyers who arbitrage into Westins though.


Yes the comment was to separating Westin's and Vistana where you could only trade through the exchange company or the DC program for those that belong.  The reasons they might consider this are to simply the overall system and have less redundancy and to give them a sales incentive for additional points and DC enrollment.



> Or do you mean taking away the SO program? That would present a host of legal problems as discussed earlier in this thread because the CC&Rs of the mandatory resorts (>25% of SVN - mostly Westins) require participation in a points program that can be passed onto resale buyers. I doubt MVC would encumber DC with that responsibility vs. grandfathering the SO program.  Even Diamond and Wyndham wouldn't pull a stunt like that with an acquisition.


As I noted, without seeing the actual documents it's difficult to say much specifics but in general the developers give themselves LOTS of latitude in these areas plus reservation systems, of which the exchange is one, are usually written as complete control to the management company.  And I'd be willing to bet here are situations where one could back out or be removed from the current points system as well.  I don't know what will happen but I do know what they'd like to do and it's not to keep everything the same and add another layer on top.


----------



## DannyTS

JIMinNC said:


> Las Vegas - the advantage of having points-based access in Vegas is you can go for 3-4 nights or less. A full week in Vegas seems like a lot.


We went last year for the first time not knowing what to expect. To our surprise, we enjoyed it quite a bit but more for what you can do using LV as a base to visit fabulous places around it. The food is also outstanding in Vegas. We are not gamblers and our 5 dollar cap lasted about 15 seconds.


----------



## Dean

CalGalTraveler said:


> I wonder what % of SVN owners own only SVN? Such owners would likely value the additional DC locations much higher than people like us who also own HGVC or other points programs.
> 
> For example, If I overlay our interests and HGVC points program ownership there are lots of alternatives but some areas of interest in *Bold.*
> 
> *Aruba -* _Yes, but only will go there once given time zones so could rent_
> Newport Coast - Maybe_, or at HGVC Carlsbad locations._
> St. Kitts - _We could substitute Tradewinds Cruise via HGVC/RCI, St. John (Westin) or HGVC Barbados Crane_
> *Ritz St. Thomas (added) *_Would love this but I don't think we will have enough points in DC to reserve with one SVN VOI._
> *Spain -* _Yes  (HGVC has Algarve, Portugal with limited avail.)_
> Italy (no MVC in Italy) - _HGVC Tuscany - been there. Lovely property._
> Thailand - _Maybe._
> *Ko Olina - *_*Yes, if they build an Atlantis next door *(would prefer HI instead of Bahamas from Calif.)_
> Hilton Head - _No, Never from Calif_
> Williamsburg - _No Never from Calif_
> *Park City *- _Mountainside is nice but can also stay at HGVC Sunrise at Canyons. More short stay ski options good._
> *Colorado ski weekends *_- These would be of interest. More options beyond Westin Avon, HGVC Breck options_
> Las Vegas - _GC is fantastic but HGVC has more options e.g. Elara across the street, Blvd, Paradise, Trump plus cash getaways._
> *San Francisco - *No HGVC announced yet. Can stay on hotel points.
> Scotland, Japan ( HGVC has those)
> NYC (HGVC will have 5 timeshare properties next year in the Big Apple = availability)
> Mexico (Cabo, Cancun, PV) HGVC, SVN
> 
> Plus Fiji, French Polynesia and Panama on Tradewinds Cruise (HGVC/RCI trade with great value)
> 
> I am hopeful that enrollment and annual fee will be a nominal incremental cost so we could just sign up and move on. If they try to charge more or require points/hybrid purchase then it will be a very high threshold to cross given alternatives.


The are 2 on the list that IMO, don't add much.  They are Williamsburg and LV.  I say that because like Branson & Orlando, those are easy locations to trade into for good resorts even for peak times.  Won't Atlantis in HI be just a hotel thus no direct access using MVC?


----------



## JIMinNC

CalGalTraveler said:


> Hilton Head - _No, Never from Calif _



At the risk of coming across as a Hilton Head promoter, if you haven't been you should try it. I've run into quite a few folks from California on the island. Except that you have to change plans in CLT or ATL to get there, it's not really meaningfully farther than Hawaii is from California.    It's a really cool island, a very different beach experience - not a lot of commercial clutter, lots of trees, the retail and commercial is heavily landscaped and hidden, no buildings over 5 stories or so, lots of charm, and GREAT restaurants.


----------



## dioxide45

ocdb8r said:


> I also don't fully understand why there is a hang up about the potential enrollment cost.  When I purchased my first mandatory SVN week (resale) I had to pay a $399 SVN enrollment fee.  That's not terribly far off the $595 MVC charged developer purchased weeks to join the DC program.


What resort did you buy? I a not aware of any enrollment fee for mandatory Vistana resort resale purchases. I know those that owned Vistana Resort when Marriott acquired them were allowed in to the SVN program for a set fee. Is that maybe what you are referring to?



JIMinNC said:


> That's pretty much it for me in VSE, except that if we could cross book easily, I would be open to trying any of the others as alternatives to the MVC in the same area, I just am not willing to pay a lot for that right. But for our preferences, the big missing pieces in VSE are:
> 
> - N*o south shore Kauai, no Big Island (so we bought HGVC for Big Island)*
> - No Hilton Head
> - No west coast of Florida
> - No Aruba
> - No SoCal coastal
> - Plus some of the other places like Spain, Palm Beach, St Kitts, Vegas, Paris, and the Pulse locations are places it would be nice to go, although they don't drive our decisions/priorities
> 
> Bottom line, VSE owners tend to be VSE owners because the VSE network fits their needs best, and conversely, MVC owners tend to be MVC owners because the MVC network fits their needs best.



Vistana now has the Sheraton Kauai. @Ken555 did a detailed review of it over on the Vistana forum. Not the best value point wise because they gave it a premium point price for smaller rooms. I guess they figure newer is better.


----------



## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> At the risk of coming across as a Hilton Head promoter, if you haven't been you should try it. I've run into quite a few folks from California on the island. Except that you have to change plans in CLT or ATL to get there, it's not really meaningfully farther than Hawaii is from California.    It's a really cool island, a very different beach experience - not a lot of commercial clutter, lots of trees, the retail and commercial is heavily landscaped and hidden, no buildings over 5 stories or so, lots of charm, and GREAT restaurants.


Meh, it isn't for everyone.

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/i-guess-hilton-head-island-isnt-for-everyone.145854/


----------



## Ken555

JIMinNC said:


> But for our preferences, the big missing pieces in VSE are:
> 
> - No south shore Kauai



https://www.vistana.com/destinations/sheraton-kauai-resort/overview


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Dean

JIMinNC said:


> At the risk of coming across as a Hilton Head promoter, if you haven't been you should try it. I've run into quite a few folks from California on the island. Except that you have to change plans in CLT or ATL to get there, it's not really meaningfully farther than Hawaii is from California.    It's a really cool island, a very different beach experience - not a lot of commercial clutter, lots of trees, the retail and commercial is heavily landscaped and hidden, no buildings over 5 stories or so, lots of charm, and GREAT restaurants.


I can certainly see being reluctant to travel across the country but it does seem to have a unique mix of great qualities.  It has good beach, wide and where you can ride bikes but it's not the gulf coast white sand beach.  It has a ton of great mid priced restaurants.  As you say it's more green than sand, palms and spurs.  It has great golf courses and a lot of bike trails.  There are no neon signs (well one last I knew), everything is earth tones and tend to be hidden making it feel more secluded than it actually is.  There are a number of great timeshares and even more very good ones.  It is the number one island destination in the continental US https://www.hiltonheadchamber.org/hilton-head-island-number-one-continental-us/ .  Just last night my SIL was talking about how much he'd grown to love it (we just got back) and the balance.  Personally I want to go as a couple and spend a few weeks and eat our way through the island there are just so many great options to chose from.


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> The are 2 on the list that IMO, don't add much.  They are Williamsburg and LV.  I say that because like Branson & Orlando, those are easy locations to trade into for good resorts even for peak times.  Won't Atlantis in HI be just a hotel thus no direct access using MVC?


Atlantis has harborside resort which is part of the VSN. the name is contractually written that it will always have access to Atlantis. Of course owners pay for this in their maint fees


----------



## Dean

CPNY said:


> Atlantis has harborside resort which is part of the VSN. the name is contractually written that it will always have access to Atlantis. Of course owners pay for this in their maint fees


So you'd have access to the grounds at any and all Atlantis hotel even if not staying there?


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

DannyTS said:


> We went last year for the first time not knowing what to expect. To our surprise, we enjoyed it quite a bit but more for what you can do using LV as a base to visit fabulous places around it. The food is also outstanding in Vegas. We are not gamblers and our 5 dollar cap lasted about 15 seconds.





I hope you had a chance to visit the Hoover Dam while you were there;  it is really quite an engineering accomplishment.




.


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> So you'd have access to the grounds at any and all Atlantis hotel even if not staying there?


What do you mean not staying there? If you’re staying at harborside resort then you’re staying at the Atlantis. You’re an Atlantis guest and you charge everything back to your room. When sol kerzner owned Atlantis, he developed the timeshare portion and partnered 50/50 with Starwood to operate the resort. Atlantis is owned by Brookfield management. So I believe wherever the Atlantis goes so does the harborside.

With that being said, I’m not sure how much MVC has in say when it comes to managing harborside resort. I’m sure there is plenty of legalities that I’ll admit don’t know too much about.


----------



## Ken555

Dean said:


> So you'd have access to the grounds at any and all Atlantis hotel even if not staying there?



Harborside is even on the official Atlantis website.

https://www.atlantisbahamas.com/rooms/harborsideresort


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## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> Harborside is even on the official Atlantis website.
> 
> https://www.atlantisbahamas.com/rooms/harborsideresort
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Correct, you can book rooms at harborside resort through Atlantis Bahamas website or through bonvoy. A portion of the inventory is managed by Marriott hotels on behalf of Brookfield assets.


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> So you'd have access to the grounds at any and all Atlantis hotel even if not staying there?


I don’t think many MVC owners would like harborside resort at all. It’s not up to your standards. You have to take shuttles around, and the decor isn’t the greatest. Don’t bother, Aruba is nicer.


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> I don’t think many MVC owners would like harborside resort at all. It’s not up to your standards. You have to take shuttles around, and the decor isn’t the greatest. Don’t bother, Aruba is nicer.



Why it is so difficult to book if it's not up to Marriott's standards? You think Marriott will spin it off? Also Harborside is no longer available via Interval, just like St John.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> Why it is so difficult to book if it's not up to Marriott's standards? You think Marriott will spin it off? Also Harborside is no longer available via Interval, just like St John.


Really? That’s odd, it exchanges through interval, you get automatic enrollment into interval as an owner. That seems odd tbh. I’m sure someone here can give a better explanation than me saying hmm that’s odd haha


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> Why it is so difficult to book if it's not up to Marriott's standards? You think Marriott will spin it off? Also Harborside is no longer available via Interval, just like St John.


I don’t know if they can spin it off I would assume they wouldn’t since 50% of the ownership belongs to Brookfield but is managed by Marriott hotels as an autograph hotel. I’d think they would want to keep it in their MVC portfolio. As to what they can do with the inventory is a different story. I wonder if harborside II exchange weeks will go back to MVC and thrown into the exchange? As well as St. John? Can they do that?


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## CalGalTraveler

Except for Hawaii where we could spend weeks, Vegas is a 3 - 5 night trip.  That's why HGVC points work well vs. getaways. I could envision visiting Hilton Head for a few days and then visiting the new HGVC Charleston location for a few more to make a week.  Same goes for Miami (HGVC or MVC) and Key West.

This short-stay travel style is where points programs shine over weeks programs. We get that with HGVC, SOs (and hopefully DC).


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> I don’t think many MVC owners would like harborside resort at all. It’s not up to your standards. You have to take shuttles around, and the decor isn’t the greatest. Don’t bother, Aruba is nicer.


Yup, a total dump when we were there last December!


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> Yup, a total dump when we were there last December!


Agreed. Speaking of dumps. Which is the best Orlando MVC? Damn interval getaways doesn’t do a great job listing 2 bedrooms. I need one of those rooms with 2 queen or 2 full beds. I know Vistana resorts has full in the second bedrooms. Anyway, harborside is a total dump. MVC owners shouldn’t even attempt to book it if they combine programs. It’s a nasty wretched place.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Agreed. Speaking of dumps. Which is the best Orlando MVC? Damn interval getaways doesn’t do a great job listing 2 bedrooms. I need one of those rooms with 2 queen or 2 full beds. I know Vistana resorts has full in the second bedrooms. Anyway, harborside is a total dump. MVC owners shouldn’t even attempt to book it if they combine programs. It’s a nasty wretched place.


Harbour Lake has the best chance of ending up with a 2BR with two queens in the second bedroom. Most of the units there are dedicated 2BR, so two queens in the second bedroom. Grande Vista also has dedicated 2BR units with two queens, but most of the 2BR units there lock off, so just a king and a sleeper sofa in the second bedroom. If you are confirmed to a lockoff 2BR through an exchange, you can make a request with the resort to have a dedicated 2BR with two queens.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> Harbour Lake has the best chance of ending up with a 2BR with two queens in the second bedroom. Most of the units there are dedicated 2BR, so two queens in the second bedroom. Grande Vista also has dedicated 2BR units with two queens, but most of the 2BR units there lock off, so just a king and a sleeper sofa in the second bedroom. If you are confirmed to a lockoff 2BR through an exchange, you can make a request with the resort to have a dedicated 2BR with two queens.


Perfect. On the getaways it does say if it’s two kings or maybe two queens so that might help narrow it down. Never stayed at the Marriotts and figured might as well try it out now!


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> Vistana now has the Sheraton Kauai. @Ken555 did a detailed review of it over on the Vistana forum. Not the best value point wise because they gave it a premium point price for smaller rooms. I guess they figure newer is better.





Ken555 said:


> https://www.vistana.com/destinations/sheraton-kauai-resort/overview



Forgot about that one since it wasn't on the list that I was quoting/using as a reference. Although aren't all the Villas still on the opposite side of a road from the ocean and the ocean-facing units are still just hotel units? Are they planning to eventually convert the ocean units as well?


----------



## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> Forgot about that one since it wasn't on the list that I was quoting/using as a reference. Although aren't all the Villas still on the opposite side of a road from the ocean and the ocean-facing units are still just hotel units? Are they planning to eventually convert the ocean units as well?


They are all on the opposite side of the road. Though they have converted them to studio, 1BR and 2BR units. THough the units are not great since they are hotel conversion. I don't think there are any plans to convert the rest of the hotel to timeshare.


----------



## Ken555

JIMinNC said:


> Are they planning to eventually convert the ocean units as well?



Let’s just ask Marriott... doubtful.


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## bazzap

pchung6 said:


> If you go to Thailand, you have to stay at local regional hotel chain like Anantara, don't do Marriott please.


Anantara certainly have some very good resorts across Asia.
I would hardly call it a local regional hotel chain though.
It is part of the Minor Group International corporation with resorts now all around the World. It is based in Asia, run by an American born entrepreneur living in Asia.
If you want “local” though you need to look elsewhere.
In Phuket specifically, the Anantara Vacation Club has some nice villas with plunge pools, most units though are in a less appealing high rise and the resort overall can’t compare with the MVC Phuket Beach Club resort - it is not even on the beach, has smaller less tropical grounds, fewer facilities and amenities...etc


----------



## bazzap

CPNY said:


> Just checked that link, some amazing resorts. Now I want to go back to Thailand! Phuket Marriott two bedroom pool villa $1,742  2/29-3/7 and $1,269 without plunge pool.
> 
> Tell me, how many DC points it takes to get those dates in a two bedroom? Is the maint fee more or less than $1,269 for the same?


I am not sure which Phuket Marriott you are looking at here?
The JW Marriott and Renaissance hotels offer plunge pool villas
With MVC, the Phuket Beach Club doesn’t, the Mai Khao Beach Resort does in the ground floor units.
Mai Khao Beach Resort though has the same issue for me as the Anantara Vacation Club- it is not on the beach and for me if I am travelling half way around the world on a trip unless it is spectacular I want to stay at a resort on the beach which is why we choose Phuket Beach Club.


----------



## Dean

CPNY said:


> What do you mean not staying there? If you’re staying at harborside resort then you’re staying at the Atlantis. You’re an Atlantis guest and you charge everything back to your room. When sol kerzner owned Atlantis, he developed the timeshare portion and partnered 50/50 with Starwood to operate the resort. Atlantis is owned by Brookfield management. So I believe wherever the Atlantis goes so does the harborside.
> 
> With that being said, I’m not sure how much MVC has in say when it comes to managing harborside resort. I’m sure there is plenty of legalities that I’ll admit don’t know too much about.





Ken555 said:


> Harborside is even on the official Atlantis website.
> 
> https://www.atlantisbahamas.com/rooms/harborsideresort
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


But the reference was to staying at Ko Olina if they built the Atlantis hotel next door.  Thus my question of why, do owners get access to ALL Atlantis hotels.  I am already aware that Harbourside gets access next door, as does Comfort suites I believe.



CPNY said:


> I don’t think many MVC owners would like harborside resort at all. It’s not up to your standards. You have to take shuttles around, and the decor isn’t the greatest. Don’t bother, Aruba is nicer.


I've been there, not a big fan of Atlantis in the Bahama's, Aruba is nicer.


----------



## SueDonJ

pchung6 said:


> I've never been to Hilton Head Island, but it sounds like a fabulous place to visit.  I fly to Charlotte for work often, I might need to make a weekend stop at HHI next time.



There is definitely *something* about it - we've loved it almost from the first moment driving over the bridge on our first visit, so much so that it's now our second home.


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> Meh, it isn't for everyone.
> 
> https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/i-guess-hilton-head-island-isnt-for-everyone.145854/



I always think of you when the HHI subject comes up.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Here is the Vistana Thread on Atlantis in HI. Apparently they purchased 3 plots of land next to Ko Olina. There is a discussion that there might be a timeshare component to the development similar to Harborside (but expect it to be offered to the highest bidding brand - not just Vistana).

I assume that the public could buy wristbands to use the water park and grounds that are staying next door at Disney or MVC? Is this possible with Atlantis Bahamas?

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/atlantis-in-hawaii-2019.250102/#post-1959262


----------



## kds4

CalGalTraveler said:


> Do you mean separating Sheraton and Westin resorts? Why would they do that? Anyway wouldn't matter to us because we want to trade all Westins. Would never use our expensive Maui SO points on a Sheraton. Would affect the SVV buyers who arbitrage into Westins though.
> 
> Or do you mean taking away the SO program? That would present a host of legal problems as discussed earlier in this thread because the CC&Rs of the mandatory resorts (>25% of SVN - mostly Westins) require participation in a points program that can be passed onto resale buyers. I doubt MVC would encumber DC with that responsibility vs. grandfathering the SO program.  Even Diamond and Wyndham wouldn't pull a stunt like that with an acquisition.





CalGalTraveler said:


> Here is the Vistana Thread on Atlantis in HI. Apparently they purchased 3 plots of land next to Ko Olina. There is a discussion that there might be a timeshare component to the development similar to Harborside (but expect it to be offered to the highest bidding brand - not just Vistana).
> 
> I assume that the public could buy wristbands to use the water park and grounds that are staying next door at Disney or MVC? Is this possible with Atlantis Bahamas?
> 
> https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/atlantis-in-hawaii-2019.250102/#post-1959262


They offer it for cruise ship passengers stopping in Nassau.


----------



## Ken555

kds4 said:


> They offer it for cruise ship passengers stopping in Nassau.



At high rates.


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## Ken555

Dean said:


> But the reference was to staying at Ko Olina if they built the Atlantis hotel next door.  Thus my question of why, do owners get access to ALL Atlantis hotels.  I am already aware that Harbourside gets access next door, as does Comfort suites I believe.
> 
> I've been there, not a big fan of Atlantis in the Bahama's, Aruba is nicer.



Why would they offer it to all Atlantis locations? That makes no sense, and is an unreasonable expectation. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Dean

Ken555 said:


> Why would they offer it to all Atlantis locations? That makes no sense, and is an unreasonable expectation.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I didn't know, the post I responded to on a thread talking about the various options suggesting they were only interested in Ko Olina if Atlantis were built next door made me wonder and ask.  The real question is why would it be that important if you had to pay for it daily.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Dean said:


> I didn't know, the post I responded to on a thread talking about the various options suggesting they were only interested in Ko Olina if Atlantis were built next door made me wonder and ask.  The real question is why would it be that important if you had to pay for it daily.



The question was which MVC locations posters believed added value over Vistana. Two reasons I am interested in Ko Olina for Atlantis:

1) A timeshare stay next to the new Atlantis amenities.

2) I figured that MVC Ko Olina would likely be set up as a certified partner to sell Atlantis tickets. In the Bahamas the general public doesn't have access so you must buy from certified hotel and cruise partners where you are staying.

Ko Olina is nice, but if this did not happen I would be happy with Westins on Maui/Kauai, or HGVC on Waikoloa and HHV Waikiki.


----------



## Dean

CalGalTraveler said:


> The question was which MVC locations posters believed added value over Vistana. Two reasons I am interested in Ko Olina for Atlantis:
> 
> 1) A timeshare stay close to the new resort
> 
> 2) I figured that MVC Ko Olina would likely be set up as a certified partner to sell Atlantis tickets. In the Bahamas the general public doesn't have access so you must buy from certified hotel and cruise partners where you are staying.
> 
> Although Ko Olina is very nice resort, if they don't build an Atlantis, then we would prefer to stay at a Westin on Maui/Kauai or HGVC Wakoaloa as those are nicer property locations and I wasn't impressed with the front desk staff or customer service at Ko Olina.


Staff changes, I never make a long term plan based on personnel other than upper management until it changes.  But that's why I asked, I didn't know what the link or focus was.


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> But the reference was to staying at Ko Olina if they built the Atlantis hotel next door.  Thus my question of why, do owners get access to ALL Atlantis hotels.  I am already aware that Harbourside gets access next door, as does Comfort suites I believe.
> 
> I've been there, not a big fan of Atlantis in the Bahama's, Aruba is nicer.


Yeah, Aruba water is cloudy. You can keep it. I know where to go in the Bahamas Atlantis so it works for me. I spend my time at the cove. TS owners aren’t allowed. 

No you don’t get access to Atlantis next to ko Olina because that Atlantis would be owned by sol kerzners group along with the Atlantis in Dubai. Brookfield owns Bahamas Atlantis and I’ve seen a huge decline since the Marriott management tbh.


----------



## pchung6

I need some MVC DC owner help. My Marriott weeks are currently not enrolled. Just in case if I enroll in the future, how many points will I receive from my Ko Olina OV week?  I just looked at the points chart and really got confused, do I have to reserve the week and exchange for points? Or I will get blended points for the week?


----------



## dioxide45

pchung6 said:


> I need some MVC DC owner help. My Marriott weeks are currently not enrolled. Just in case if I enroll in the future, how many points will I receive from my Ko Olina OV week?  I just looked at the points chart and really got confused, do I have to reserve the week and exchange for points? Or I will get blended points for the week?


https://historical.vacationpointexchange.com/


----------



## Dean

pchung6 said:


> I need some MVC DC owner help. My Marriott weeks are currently not enrolled. Just in case if I enroll in the future, how many points will I receive from my Ko Olina OV week?  I just looked at the points chart and really got confused, do I have to reserve the week and exchange for points? Or I will get blended points for the week?


Per the chart dioxide linked, it's 4950 for a Platinum OV 2 BR.  Willow Ridge is nothing from a points standpoint at 1850 Platinum.  You'll have the club costs but you'll potentially save in other areas.  You might be able to drop a personal II account, lockoff fees and Marriott to Marriott fees will be waived going forward (in the corporate account). So if you can enroll for free I'd do it, likely not if you have to pay significant dollars.  If you qualify to do it for free, I'd likely enroll what you can before other changes are announced but it's a gamble either way.


----------



## pchung6

Dean said:


> Per the chart dioxide linked, it's 4950 for a Platinum OV 2 BR.  Willow Ridge is nothing from a points standpoint at 1850 Platinum.  You'll have the club costs but you'll potentially save in other areas.  You might be able to drop a personal II account, lockoff fees and Marriott to Marriott fees will be waived going forward (in the corporate account). So if you can enroll for free I'd do it, likely not if you have to pay significant dollars.  If you qualify to do it for free, I'd likely enroll what you can before other changes are announced but it's a gamble either way.



So I receive 4950 pts from MKO OV and it will cost more to reserve the same week in the summer. That's is very interesting and arbitrage by Marriott. I do see the benefits to waive lockoff fees and M to M exchange fees. I can't drop my personal II since I still have resale Vistana week as trader. We will see in coming weeks, it will be fun.


----------



## SueDonJ

pchung6 said:


> So I receive 4950 pts from MKO OV and it will cost more to reserve the same week in the summer. That's is very interesting and arbitrage by Marriott. ...



That's what is called "skim" - most enrolled Marriott Weeks receive DC allotments that are less than the amount of DC Points required to book the same intervals via the DC Exchange Company. Not all, but most.

Some say it's irrelevant because if you want to use your Week as purchased, you simply don't elect to exchange it for DC Points, you just book it the same way you always have. Pushback on that argument is, but it might also mean that the DC Points allotment of my Week won't allow me to exchange into other intervals that I have gotten in II with their like-for-like metric. Pushback on that argument is, II has never given me like-for-like exchange value for my particular Weeks and the DC Points allotment gives me more than II does.

IF a DC Enrollment-type program is what's eventually offered, it's impossible to know if/how it will benefit you until you know what the DC Exchange Points value of what you own will be, and, how they can be used in the DC Points Charts as compared to the historical usage value you've gotten.


----------



## DannyTS

the skim is one of the reasons I think they will offer soon mass enrollment. It would be so profitable for them to have tens of thousand of new weeks to skim.


----------



## JIMinNC

DannyTS said:


> the skim is one of the reasons I think they will offer soon mass enrollment. It would be so profitable for them to have tens of thousand of new weeks to skim.



My suspicion is we overestimate how much profit is really in the skim. I'm sure there is some - they _*are*_ in business to make money after all - but I think most of the skim is Marriott's way of accounting for the "orphan" days that get created by broken weeks and short stays, and ensuring there are not more points than truly available inventory.


----------



## pchung6

SueDonJ said:


> That's what is called "skim" - most enrolled Marriott Weeks receive DC allotments that are less than the amount of DC Points required to book the same intervals via the DC Exchange Company. Not all, but most.



This is just ridiculous. Marriott makes a lot of money from our weekw by selling high and buy low. I think people will just enroll and use Interval for free exchange. I can get MKO 1-2 br using Branson week through II, and Branson week gets me nothing in DC.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Re: skim.I believe it is a moneymaker because the week is paid for by maint fees no matter whether it is used or not. They csn double dip by renting out excess skim inventory on Marriott.com. Since hotel guests tend to book close in they can cherry pick the inventory and charge a premium for the hotel stay.


----------



## pchung6

CalGalTraveler said:


> Re: skim.I believe it is a moneymaker because the week is paid for by maint fees no matter whether it is used or not. They csn double dip by renting out excess skim inventory on Marriott.com. Since hotel guests tend to book close in they can cherry pick the inventory and charge a premium for the hotel stay.



Not only that Marriott can buy low and sell high. Marriott also banks on the vacancy points we cannot use. Let's say I sold them my week at low 4950 pts and I can only use 4890 pts, Marriott will bank the 60 pts for their own benefits.


----------



## SueDonJ

pchung6 said:


> Not only that Marriott can buy low and sell high. Marriott also banks on the vacancy points we cannot use. Let's say I sold them my week at low 4950 pts and I can only use 4890 pts, Marriott will bank the 60 pts for their own benefits.



Just in this thread you have Marriott owners/DC members (I'm one of them) telling you how they manage to get MORE exchange value out of the DC than they'd ever gotten out of II, and still more telling you that they utilize a vibrant DC Points rental market to either off-load their excess or pick-up what they need so that they're not in the position of giving Marriott extra profit off their ownerships. And the participation numbers here in this thread are miniscule compared to the number of people who've learned over the last nine-plus years that the DC is an excellent option for the majority of people who come into it via enrollment of existing Weeks.

Again, I get the resistance-to-change dynamic that's naturally at work. And I know that the DC simply does not marry well with everyone's ownership.

I read you in this thread, though, and simply can't understand how you manage to not read, or worse, ignore, the people who are trying to give you a better understanding of the Marriott Destination Club than you apparently have. I just don't get why you have so much negativity towards something about which you appear to be confused, and which at this point none of us can know how it might or might not work for you specifically!


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## Ken555

SueDonJ said:


> Just in this thread you have Marriott owners/DC members (I'm one of them) telling you how they manage to get MORE exchange value out of the DC than they'd ever gotten out of II



Would you say the same for those who are very flexible when they travel? I have yet to see examples where the exchange value in DC is more than II. For instance, I’ve had years of success with my 1-bed SDO weeks (I have 3 each year, on average, with an EY and EOY) obtaining 1 and 2 bed units in some of the best places and not just other Vistana resorts (though obviously that’s a benefit). 

Are you really suggesting I will obtain more value from DC than II?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SueDonJ

CalGalTraveler said:


> Re: skim.I believe it is a moneymaker because the week is paid for by maint fees no matter whether it is used or not. They csn double dip by renting out excess skim inventory on Marriott.com. Since hotel guests tend to book close in they can cherry pick the inventory and charge a premium for the hotel stay.



This is absolutely no different than how things have always worked in the Marriott system. They have always been able to take unused inventory (specifically, as stipulated in the governing docs as "unbooked by owners X number of days [most commonly +/- 75] in advance of check-in") and offer it for rent on their platform with all profit going to them. I know TUGgers don't let their ownerships go unused, but throughout the industry it's actually very common.


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## SueDonJ

Ken555 said:


> Would you say the same for those who are very flexible when they travel? I have yet to see examples where the exchange value in DC is more than II. For instance, I’ve had years of success with my 1-bed SDO weeks (I have 3 each year, on average, with an EY and EOY) obtaining 1 and 2 bed units in some of the best places and not just other Vistana resorts (though obviously that’s a benefit).
> 
> Are you really suggesting I will obtain more value from DC than II?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I'd say more so for people who are flexible than for people who are constrained by school vacation schedules, sure, because they can take advantage of less-than-peak adjustments built into the DC Points Charts.

For people like you who own 1BR's, or lock-off units, who are used to up-trading in II, maybe not so much. But II has since the DC inception instituted up-sizing fees on top of exchange fees so the DC system might be a wash for some of those types of exchanges. When it comes to II not guaranteeing the view type of an exchange, some people who don't care about the view (so are comfortable with using II) will equalize that offset by using DC Points for a lesser view than what they own and would be otherwise depositing into II. Finally, many have found value in using their Weeks for II exchanges exactly as they always have, but are saving money by enrolling the Weeks and taking advantage of the waived II transaction fees in DC-related corporate II accounts.

Me personally, I own 3BR and 2BR non-lockoffs with premium views in high-demand resorts during peak seasons. During all the years I used II to exchange, I had NEVER gotten what I considered to be an equal exchange for my 3BR deposits, and I would sweat the unit placement right up to check-in. None of that reality was Marriott's fault - they told me that my Weeks would be excellent exchange bait that should return good exchanges, which they did, but that 3BR non-lockoff deposits to II are few and far between so they'd probably pull 2BR's or less, which they did. I know that when they rolled out the DC my decision was easy because of what I own specifically (and because I'd been wishing for a product that married my Marriott resorts with a Disney Vacation Club-like points usage since almost the day we bought!)

But I also know that if what you're facing turns out to be similar to what we Marriott owners faced, it will take some thinking, comparing and contrasting past use as well as intended future use, to figure out whether it will work for you as far as costs and usage value. And I really hope that threads like this one help more than hurt.


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## bazzap

Ken555 said:


> Would you say the same for those who are very flexible when they travel? I have yet to see examples where the exchange value in DC is more than II. For instance, I’ve had years of success with my 1-bed SDO weeks (I have 3 each year, on average, with an EY and EOY) obtaining 1 and 2 bed units in some of the best places and not just other Vistana resorts (though obviously that’s a benefit).
> 
> Are you really suggesting I will obtain more value from DC than II?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It varies by resort.
II can offer more value, e.g. when we get 2 for 1 exchanging our lock off weeks often with upgrades.
DC can offer more value, e.g. when we get perhaps 10 nights for our week electing our high points European weeks for low points Caribbean weeks.


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## JIMinNC

CalGalTraveler said:


> Re: skim.I believe it is a moneymaker because the week is paid for by maint fees no matter whether it is used or not. They csn double dip by renting out excess skim inventory on Marriott.com. Since hotel guests tend to book close in they can cherry pick the inventory and charge a premium for the hotel stay.



The excess inventory is not created by the skim. The unused inventory is created by broken weeks (created by short stays) where there are orphan days that go unused or un-rented. I believe the skim is Marriott's way of making sure that those orphan days don't cause the system to get out of balance. Other systems that still sell deeded weeks can probably use developer owned inventory to absorb this mismatch in points, but since all/most of MVC's unsold inventory goes into the Trust, they probably need to make sure the orphan days don't create imbalance of supply with demand. While they obviously rent out some of those orphan days, an isolated Wednesday on Maui (as an example) might have minimal cash marketability.


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## pchung6

SueDonJ said:


> Just in this thread you have Marriott owners/DC members (I'm one of them) telling you how they manage to get MORE exchange value out of the DC than they'd ever gotten out of II, and still more telling you that they utilize a vibrant DC Points rental market to either off-load their excess or pick-up what they need so that they're not in the position of giving Marriott extra profit off their ownerships.



I get that I can rent pts out. I would rent pts out too if I have hundreds pts. I was talking about these odd pts, in my case was 60 pts. Who will bother to rent out 60 pts for (60 x $0.60) $36 bucks? Marriott will just bank that $36 profit from owners when owners don't even want to deal with the rental for so few. Well, Vistana SOs is doing the same thing though. I am not bias toward DC and I am trying to understand the program. However, I do like the free exchange in II. But the more I find out the more I refuse. I know you are the moderator, so I just stop here before I get booted.


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## pchung6

bazzap said:


> DC can offer more value, e.g. when we get perhaps 10 nights for our week electing our high points European weeks for low points Caribbean weeks.



Got it, so the key is to exchange high value week for DC pts and exchange for low season of somewhere else. But isn't low season weeks usually very cheap in II Getaway?


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## SueDonJ

pchung6 said:


> I get that I can rent pts out. I would rent pts out too if I have hundreds pts. I was talking about these odd pts, in my case was 60 pts. Who will bother to rent out 60 pts for (60 x $0.60) $36 bucks? Marriott will just bank that $36 profit from owners when owners don't even want to deal with the rental for so few. Well, Vistana SOs is doing the same thing though. I am not bias toward DC and I am trying to understand the program. However, the more I find out the more I refuse. I know you are the moderator, so I just stop here before I get booted.



Just to say, I don't abuse being a mod by booting people who disagree with me. If EVER anybody thought that I did, I hope you'd all get @TUGBrian involved to boot ME off! Truthfully, the TUG discussions that get into the weeds and offer varying opinions are my favorite kind of discussion. 

I do, though, have a really good knowledge of Marriott's timeshare company and all of the products it offers, as a longtime owner but more so as a longtime voracious reader of this TUG forum. I'm happy to say when I don't know something, more than willing to admit when I get something wrong, and my mind's wide open to the fact that what I get from Marriott ownership is NOT everybody else's cup of tea.

Really, I'm here in this thread for the same reason all the other Marriott owners are, to try to help answer your questions. If it's not working, I'm sorry for whatever part I'm playing that's hurting. You can feel free to ask me to step away.


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## JIMinNC

Ken555 said:


> Would you say the same for those who are very flexible when they travel? I have yet to see examples where the exchange value in DC is more than II. For instance, I’ve had years of success with my 1-bed SDO weeks (I have 3 each year, on average, with an EY and EOY) obtaining 1 and 2 bed units in some of the best places and not just other Vistana resorts (though obviously that’s a benefit).
> 
> Are you really suggesting I will obtain more value from DC than II?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I agree with Sue's reply on this, but also want to add that it depends also on how one defines "value". Clearly for someone with high value weeks, it's hard to get value-for-value exchanges in II and the DC gives more points to high season/high demand locations. It ensures the high value week owners are treated fairly. Now for someone used to trading up all the time (like another poster who reported trading Branson for KoOlina) then II will probably often better value to them - as long as they aren't bothered by the basic process of trading.

Taking that last point about the trading process one step further, "value" can also be measured in non-financial terms. For us, avoiding the tedious and uncertain process of II trading is more important than squeezing every bit of monetary value out of our ownership. Our one enrolled week is a "low value" Silver Hilton Head week. We can probably often get much more monetary value out of that week in II than in the DC (it only elects for 1625 points). But after trying II trading for two years in 2017 and 2018, we have now resolved to *always* elect for points and avoid II if at all possible. We elected for 2019 and have already converted 2020 and 2021 to points as well. Our two "high value" Hawaii weeks are not enrolled in the DC (ineligible as post-2010 resales), but we don't even have an II account for them.


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## pchung6

Sorry I have just one more question about DC. If I elect DC pts for 4950 pts from my MKO week, then I reserve the MOC low season week. Am I eligible to rent the week out legally?


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## bazzap

pchung6 said:


> Got it, so the key is to exchange high value week for DC pts and exchange for low season of somewhere else. But isn't low season weeks usually very cheap in II Getaway?


It doesn’t need to be low season weeks you book with Elected Weeks DC points though.
The example I quoted was to get longer than a week in the same “Gold” season.


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## JIMinNC

pchung6 said:


> Got it, so the key is to exchange high value week for DC pts and exchange for low season of somewhere else. But isn't low season weeks usually very cheap in II Getaway?



Its not always low season. Some prime time Hawaii weeks and even some weeks at somewhere like Crystal Shores on Marco Island can elect for 5500-7500+ points, but top Caribbean high season weeks often can be booked for 5000-6000 points or less. Shoulder season offers even more value. Those weeks won't be there as Getaways.


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## SueDonJ

pchung6 said:


> Sorry I have just one more question about DC. If I elect DC pts for 4950 pts from my MKO week, then I reserve the MOC low season week. Am I eligible to rent the week out legally?



Yes. The same as with the Weeks system, there is no charge for you to contact Marriott and add their name to the reservation. They in turn will have to provide their own credit card number at check-in and if they have a Bonvoy Rewards account they can add that number at check-in, too.


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## pchung6

SueDonJ said:


> Yes. The same as with the Weeks system, there is no charge for you to contact Marriott and add their name to the reservation. They in turn will have to provide their own credit card number at check-in and if they have a Bonvoy Rewards account they can add that number at check-in, too.


Great. That's another good benefit from DC. It would be illegal to rent it out in Vistana and even you do it illegally, it will cost $59 to add third party guest's name.


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## SueDonJ

pchung6 said:


> Got it, so the key is to exchange high value week for DC pts and exchange for low season of somewhere else. But isn't low season weeks usually very cheap in II Getaway?





JIMinNC said:


> Its not always low season. Some prime time Hawaii weeks and even some weeks at somewhere like Crystal Shores on Marco Island can elect for 5500-7500+ points, but top Caribbean high season weeks often can be booked for 5000-6000 points or less. Shoulder season offers even more value. Those weeks won't be there as Getaways.



It's also not a matter of comparing DC value with the cash price of an II Getaway. The ideal is to get better exchange value in the DC than you get in II which many Weeks do. For example if I deposit my SurfWatch/3BR/Oceanside/Platinum week in II, it's practically guaranteed to exchange to any cheap II Getaways but at what I would consider a loss of value, or, to anything up to a prime Hawaii 2BR.  Exchanging it for DC Points, though, would give me the equivalent of a cheap II Getaway three-to-four times over, or, that prime Hawaii 2BR, or, anything in-between PLUS a points balance remaining. Who wouldn't choose the DC option in that case?


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## kds4

pchung6 said:


> Sorry I have just one more question about DC. If I elect DC pts for 4950 pts from my MKO week, then I reserve the MOC low season week. Am I eligible to rent the week out legally?



Yes. Unlike an II exchange (which is not supposed to be rented out by the exchanger), a DC points reservation is completely rentable. I (and others) have made reservations with points we could not use and then rented it out to someone who could use it.


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## SueDonJ

[Deleted - kds4 beat me to it.]


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## Dean

pchung6 said:


> So I receive 4950 pts from MKO OV and it will cost more to reserve the same week in the summer. That's is very interesting and arbitrage by Marriott. I do see the benefits to waive lockoff fees and M to M exchange fees. I can't drop my personal II since I still have resale Vistana week as trader. We will see in coming weeks, it will be fun.


A points system is inherently more inefficient than a weeks system so some amount of a points cushion is not only needed, but required.  But I think they went a little over in some cases.  IMO the realignment of seasons for the points over the weeks system is again, not only appropriate but necessary to reflect current demand.  Sure you could drop II but you may not want to.  I have another week that only trades officially through II but once I get past my current deposits I'm going to drop II and only trade that week through the independent exchange companies.  



DannyTS said:


> the skim is one of the reasons I think they will offer soon mass enrollment. It would be so profitable for them to have tens of thousand of new weeks to skim.


I personally doubt they make a ton on this, esp enough cause them to look at doing this specifically for that reason.  



Ken555 said:


> Would you say the same for those who are very flexible when they travel? I have yet to see examples where the exchange value in DC is more than II. For instance, I’ve had years of success with my 1-bed SDO weeks (I have 3 each year, on average, with an EY and EOY) obtaining 1 and 2 bed units in some of the best places and not just other Vistana resorts (though obviously that’s a benefit).
> 
> Are you really suggesting I will obtain more value from DC than II?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I think you will receive a different type of value.  Value is in the eye of the beholder and while I think $$$ is an important portion, it's not the only portion.  Having a locked in reservation in time to do airfare and having some control over view type is important.  And while there is generally not much if any priority for a point reservation over an exchange, this varies a little by resort and I personally expect it to change in the next few years.  DC points is better for non 6-7 day stays, for hard to exchange to locations, to lock in your time.  Heck I'll book DC points then try to get the exchange and cancel the points reservation in favor of other usage later.  I did this for almost all of our trip this past summer to HI where I started with a Maui studio on points, 3 Ko Olina 2BR (2 points, 1 owned) and 3 Waiohai weeks on points and ended with all but one Waiohai week as exchanges then used those points for Aruba and Grande Ocean.  Then I did the same in Aruba to a lessor degree.  



pchung6 said:


> Got it, so the key is to exchange high value week for DC pts and exchange for low season of somewhere else. But isn't low season weeks usually very cheap in II Getaway?


I think that's too simplistic.  IMO the value is best represented by options, control and timing.  I do all 3, use my weeks, use points and trade for points.  I have resorts I own just to trade (Willow Ridge Plat), those I use some and take points on otherwise (LE, HL, Ko Olina, Waiohai), those I only take points on (SW HHI) and those I never trade for points and only use (MGO).  You own 2 of those resorts and it appears those are your only Marriott's (WR, MKO) and I'd never recommend routine usage of WR for points, too low.  But for MKO it's make perfect sense to use it and take points when you weren't going to use it.  I actually own 2 WR platinum weeks so I further diversity often by locking off one and not the other.


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## chemteach

Owners of lower points value weeks will likely continue to do better with II exchanges so long as Marriott continues to deposit high point value weeks in II. Even with the exchange fee and upsize fees, II exchanging does well. I deposited a 2 BR and 1 BR at Grand Chateau. Would have been worth 4650 DC points. I exchanged for a 2 BR summer Waiohai week and a 2 BR spring break Aruba Surf Club week. My cost was $1900 in maintenance fees and about $430 in II fees. I definitely did better in II than I would have in the DC. I don’t get ocean views, I can plan way in advance. Different things work for different people. If you need ocean view, you need DC points. If you can plan in advance, II can be great. But II availability can always change...  The beauty of TUG is being able to read about what’s happening, keep abreast of changes, and figure out how to make time sharing work for your personal needs. I personally am grateful to everyone for posting their experiences!!


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## Videoguy75

CPNY said:


> No you don’t get access to Atlantis next to ko Olina because that Atlantis would be owned by sol kerzners group along with the Atlantis in Dubai. Brookfield owns Bahamas Atlantis and I’ve seen a huge decline since the Marriott management tbh.



Interesting the way this is shown on the property. A bit overwhelming the area:


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## TheTimeTraveler

Videoguy75 said:


> Interesting the way this is shown on the property. A bit overwhelming the area:
> View attachment 12938





It certainly won't be like it once was!




.


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## CalGalTraveler

It looks like a Star Trek spaceship landed in between Aulani and Ko Olina! I am surprised the city council would approve - and Aulani and condo next door may object to blocking their views. But perhaps the view from the street-side is not so overpowering.

They purposefully put the waterpark on the streetside. If open to the public, the waterpark could improve the city's coffers with daily visitors from Waikiki to local restaurants and attractions too. Just like they have the buses that regularly go to the outlet mall, I could envision buses to this attraction. Ko Olina may get much busier as a result.


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## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> and Aulani and condo next door may object to blocking their views. But perhaps the view from the street-side is not so overpowering.


I am not sure they would have much of a say. When they built there and owners bought, they knew there was an empty parcel of land that could and would at some day have something built on it.


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## TheTimeTraveler

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure they would have much of a say. When they built there and owners bought, they knew there was an empty parcel of land that could and would at some day have something built on it.





So true!   Marriott's mistake was not buying it when it was available for sale.....




.


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## Ken555

SueDonJ said:


> I'd say more so for people who are flexible than for people who are constrained by school vacation schedules, sure, because they can take advantage of less-than-peak adjustments built into the DC Points Charts.



Yes, that's understandable. I do that with Vistana. 



> For people like you who own 1BR's, or lock-off units, who are used to up-trading in II, maybe not so much.



Exactly.



> But II has since the DC inception instituted up-sizing fees on top of exchange fees so the DC system might be a wash for some of those types of exchanges.



This was annoying when it started, but now I simply consider it part of the cost. I also don't always upgrade. 



> When it comes to II not guaranteeing the view type of an exchange, some people who don't care about the view (so are comfortable with using II) will equalize that offset by using DC Points for a lesser view than what they own and would be otherwise depositing into II.



I usually don't care about the view. I'm most concerned about a quiet, clean unit. However, you're making the point that DC Points can be as affordable as an II exchange here...is that really accurate?



> Finally, many have found value in using their Weeks for II exchanges exactly as they always have, but are saving money by enrolling the Weeks and taking advantage of the waived II transaction fees in DC-related corporate II accounts.



Sure, saving money with II exchange fees is a good thing. Of course, if that's the primary benefit to enrolling, then it all comes down to how much they charge to enroll.



> Me personally, I own 3BR and 2BR non-lockoffs with premium views in high-demand resorts during peak seasons. During all the years I used II to exchange, I had NEVER gotten what I considered to be an equal exchange for my 3BR deposits, and I would sweat the unit placement right up to check-in. None of that reality was Marriott's fault - they told me that my Weeks would be excellent exchange bait that should return good exchanges, which they did, but that 3BR non-lockoff deposits to II are few and far between so they'd probably pull 2BR's or less, which they did. I know that when they rolled out the DC my decision was easy because of what I own specifically (and because I'd been wishing for a product that married my Marriott resorts with a Disney Vacation Club-like points usage since almost the day we bought!)



This is helpful, since now it's clear why you tend to support the points program more than II. Yes, you have great units which are not good for trading. 



bazzap said:


> It varies by resort.
> II can offer more value, e.g. when we get 2 for 1 exchanging our lock off weeks often with upgrades.
> DC can offer more value, e.g. when we get perhaps 10 nights for our week electing our high points European weeks for low points Caribbean weeks.



I've done the 2 for 1 (which I still think of as XYZ...) many times, though not in the last couple of years. It's a great value when it happens. 



JIMinNC said:


> I agree with Sue's reply on this, but also want to add that it depends also on how one defines "value".



Sorry, I used one of those bad words on TUG again which for some bizarre reason is hard to define without many, many sentences explaining my particular use of the word. Let's just say, as I wrote earlier in this thread, that I place value based on the number of nights I am able to obtain per ownership per year regardless of unit size (but no less than the equivalent of a Vistana studio/small 1-bed, so Marriott studios/hotel rooms don't count). 



> Clearly for someone with high value weeks, it's hard to get value-for-value exchanges in II and the DC gives more points to high season/high demand locations. It ensures the high value week owners are treated fairly. Now for someone used to trading up all the time (like another poster who reported trading Branson for KoOlina) then II will probably often better value to them - as long as they aren't bothered by the basic process of trading.



I always trade up with my SDO weeks. I always use my high-value WKV week via StarOptions for trading within the program. That's where I'm coming from...some of each...and I allocate value accordingly. 



> Taking that last point about the trading process one step further, "value" can also be measured in non-financial terms.



It could, but not for me.



> For us, avoiding the tedious and uncertain process of II trading is more important than squeezing every bit of monetary value out of our ownership.



I squeeze value out of my weeks. It's all part of the timeshare game. I'm not willing to pay a high(er) price per night for a timeshare when I could get a similarly great trip without any ownership requirement at all. 



> Our one enrolled week is a "low value" Silver Hilton Head week. We can probably often get much more monetary value out of that week in II than in the DC (it only elects for 1625 points). But after trying II trading for two years in 2017 and 2018, we have now resolved to *always* elect for points and avoid II if at all possible. We elected for 2019 and have already converted 2020 and 2021 to points as well. Our two "high value" Hawaii weeks are not enrolled in the DC (ineligible as post-2010 resales), but we don't even have an II account for them.



Well, it sounds like the value to you is not dealing with the trading game. You don't like it, like Sue. This helps us since you are both advocates for the points program, as you had poor experiences with II trading and find value in not spending time trying to make the program work for you. I get it. I appreciate it. I'm glad you found a solution that works for you. 



Dean said:


> I think you will receive a different type of value.  Value is in the eye of the beholder and while I think $$$ is an important portion, it's not the only portion.



See above re my definition of value. 



> Having a locked in reservation in time to do airfare and having some control over view type is important.



Huh? Typically my II exchanges are way before airfare is even available for booking. I've exchanged my SDO into WKORV multiple times over a year in advance. I've exchanged into ski weeks in Colorado 1.5-2 years in advance. 

I don't care about view, though I will enjoy one when I get it (which is often, even via II). I care about a quiet and clean unit.



> And while there is generally not much if any priority for a point reservation over an exchange, this varies a little by resort and I personally expect it to change in the next few years.  DC points is better for non 6-7 day stays, for hard to exchange to locations, to lock in your time.



I only obtain a week at a time in II, so non-weekly exchanges isn't relevant here. Obviously, not all resorts are available via II and for those then using the internal points exchange is the way to go. This is primarily why I use my WKV week via StarOptions for Hawaii, even though I've been quite successful obtaining Hawaii weeks via II (as recently as last December in a 2-bed at Nanea).



> Heck I'll book DC points then try to get the exchange and cancel the points reservation in favor of other usage later.  I did this for almost all of our trip this past summer to HI where I started with a Maui studio on points, 3 Ko Olina 2BR (2 points, 1 owned) and 3 Waiohai weeks on points and ended with all but one Waiohai week as exchanges then used those points for Aruba and Grande Ocean.  Then I did the same in Aruba to a lessor degree.



We can't do this with StarOptions, but good to know it's possible with DP.


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## bazzap

I don’t understand this?
II only introduced unit size upgrade fees (for MVC to MVC exchanges anyway) a few years ago, long after the inception of DC.


“But II has since the DC inception instituted up-sizing fees on top of exchange fees so the DC system might be a wash for some of those types of exchanges.”

“This was annoying when it started, but now I simply consider it part of the cost. I also don't always upgrade.”


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## Ken555

bazzap said:


> I don’t understand this?
> II only introduced unit size upgrade fees (for MVC to MVC exchanges anyway) a few years ago, long after the inception of DC.
> 
> 
> “But II has since the DC inception instituted up-sizing fees on top of exchange fees so the DC system might be a wash for some of those types of exchanges.”
> 
> “This was annoying when it started, but now I simply consider it part of the cost. I also don't always upgrade.”



I was referring to the II charge for obtaining a larger unit than the week deposited. I just did this a few minutes ago... I was able to exchange my SDO 1-bed into a Hawaii 2-bed for 2020 (see the sighting board for details). I was assessed a $59 charge for reserving a 2-bed. Until a few years ago, II did not charge extra for such exchanges.

This is a great example of how and why II continues to provide *value*.


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## JIMinNC

Ken555 said:


> Well, it sounds like the value to you is not dealing with the trading game. You don't like it, like Sue. This helps us since you are both advocates for the points program, as you had poor experiences with II trading and find value in not spending time trying to make the program work for you. I get it. I appreciate it. I'm glad you found a solution that works for you.



Exactly. I hate playing the trading game. I just want to book. 

Plus, we value view, so that’s another way points work so much better for us. We can lock in a view. Since you said view is not that important to you, I can see that trading will work better for you. 

Even though points often result in a per night cost that is higher than II trading, it still beats renting in most cases. But again there, I’m not comparing against rentals from other owners since we don’t care for that either. No flexibility and generally have to pay upfront. I have to pay MF up front too, but with points, outside of 60 days I can cancel/rebook for free. Owner rentals I’m locked in. 

For us, all of those things are more important measures of value than just the lowest cost.


----------



## bazzap

Ken555 said:


> I was referring to the II charge for obtaining a larger unit than the week deposited. I just did this a few minutes ago... I was able to exchange my SDO 1-bed into a Hawaii 2-bed for 2020 (see the sighting board for details). I was assessed a $59 charge for reserving a 2-bed. Until a few years ago, II did not charge extra for such exchanges.
> 
> This is a great example of how and why II continues to provide *value*.


Yes, perhaps I misunderstood - my comment was just that II did not charge for these until a few years ago, which is why I was surprised to read that 
“II since the DC inception instituted up-sizing fees” which I read as meaning these started in 2010?


----------



## Ken555

JIMinNC said:


> Exactly. I hate playing the trading game. I just want to book.
> 
> Plus, we value view, so that’s another way points work so much better for us. We can lock in a view. Since you said view is not that important to you, I can see that trading will work better for you.
> 
> Even though points often result in a per night cost that is higher than II trading, it still beats renting in most cases. But again there, I’m not comparing against rentals from other owners since we don’t care for that either. No flexibility and generally have to pay upfront. I have to pay MF up front too, but with points, outside of 60 days I can cancel/rebook for free. Owner rentals I’m locked in.
> 
> For us, all of those things are more important measures of value than just the lowest cost.



This is very helpful for us to know, since it obviously influences your perspective on the DC program vs II trading. I do both StarOptions internal network exchange and II trading, so I experience the benefits as well as the challenges. I've had very good *value* with my WKV week in the network, and also excellent results with my various non-StarOptions weeks (I used to have two SVR 2-bed non-LO weeks, but now have just SDO 2-bed LOs) including another great trade just this morning. If my 2020 calendar wasn't already fairly full I'd grab a couple more Hawaii weeks in II...plenty of time to book flights, etc. 

My goals when buying timeshares were very clear. I wanted to guarantee a reasonable (ie. low) cost per night travel experience in order to increase the number of nights traveling per year with the same budget I would otherwise spend for less time.


----------



## pchung6

Ken555 said:


> I was referring to the II charge for obtaining a larger unit than the week deposited. I just did this a few minutes ago... I was able to exchange my SDO 1-bed into a Hawaii 2-bed for 2020 (see the sighting board for details). I was assessed a $59 charge for reserving a 2-bed. Until a few years ago, II did not charge extra for such exchanges.
> 
> This is a great example of how and why II continues to provide *value*.



I just grabbed another 2 br Westin Nanea week using SBP 1 bed for 2020. This will make 3 weeks Hawaii vacation next year. Now, I need to adjust my OGS from my Branson 1 bed to 2021 and hope it can come through for Ko Olina.

I really love my Vistana SBP and Marriott WR weeks.


----------



## SueDonJ

bazzap said:


> Yes, perhaps I misunderstood - my comment was just that II did not charge for these until a few years ago, which is why I was surprised to read that
> “II since the DC inception instituted up-sizing fees” which I read as meaning these started in 2010?



No, I meant it as it's something that was introduced after the DC, meaning that while it wasn't something that would have been considered by those of us who were evaluating the DC at the DC introduction, it is now.


----------



## SueDonJ

Ken555 said:


> Yes, that's understandable. ...



I appreciate the long post you wrote, Ken. Obviously, you've put some thought into trying to understand what's being said here about how the DC works.

It's never been my aim - or the aim of most people on the Marriott forum - to tell anybody that the DC works for everyone. It obviously doesn't. I'm glad this thread helped you to decide that if it is offered to you, it doesn't appear to marry well with your ownership and how you use it. That's all that counts.


----------



## sjsharkie

Ken555 said:


> This is very helpful for us to know, since it obviously influences your perspective on the DC program vs II trading. I do both StarOptions internal network exchange and II trading, so I experience the benefits as well as the challenges. I've had very good *value* with my WKV week in the network, and also excellent results with my various non-StarOptions weeks (I used to have two SVR 2-bed non-LO weeks, but now have just SDO 2-bed LOs) including another great trade just this morning. If my 2020 calendar wasn't already fairly full I'd grab a couple more Hawaii weeks in II...plenty of time to book flights, etc.
> 
> My goals when buying timeshares were very clear. I wanted to guarantee a reasonable (ie. low) cost per night travel experience in order to increase the number of nights traveling per year with the same budget I would otherwise spend for less time.


Ditto on Ken's post.

I have multiple mandatory weeks plus I have voluntary weeks that I trade with II.  I am cost conscious, and rarely but will pay extra with SOs if I have the points to do so.

I just picked up 3 2BR Nanea weeks for an extended family vacation.  Cost per week with mf + trade + upgrade fees are below $1k each for an early August stay that will work with my school calendar.  If I have a view of the parking lot, it's ok with me at that price. The fact that these Hawaii weeks that were bulk banked today by Vistana were under preference is a smart move IMHO - it keeps resale and demand up for Vistana properties.

Full disclosure: I also own several Marriott weeks resale and do not have access to DC.  I have no desire to do so at the price they are asking to get resale weeks in.  For me, I have flexibility with Vistana and Hyatt and that works fine for me.

This is why I love the SVN program.  I suspect it will change over time, but I hope it doesnt.

Ryan

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> Great. That's another good benefit from DC. It would be illegal to rent it out in Vistana and even you do it illegally, it will cost $59 to add third party guest's name.


You can’t rent a week in a resort you don’t own in. However you can let as many uncles and aunts you want to go using star options.


----------



## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> No, I meant it as it's something that was introduced after the DC, meaning that while it wasn't something that would have been considered by those of us who were evaluating the DC at the DC introduction, it is now.


I was thinking of picking up a. Vistana voluntary or MVC resort for II trades. Any suggestions.


----------



## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> This is very helpful for us to know, since it obviously influences your perspective on the DC program vs II trading. I do both StarOptions internal network exchange and II trading, so I experience the benefits as well as the challenges. I've had very good *value* with my WKV week in the network, and also excellent results with my various non-StarOptions weeks (I used to have two SVR 2-bed non-LO weeks, but now have just SDO 2-bed LOs) including another great trade just this morning. If my 2020 calendar wasn't already fairly full I'd grab a couple more Hawaii weeks in II...plenty of time to book flights, etc.
> 
> My goals when buying timeshares were very clear. I wanted to guarantee a reasonable (ie. low) cost per night travel experience in order to increase the number of nights traveling per year with the same budget I would otherwise spend for less time.


The good thing is that when we enrolled our weeks in DC the single annual fee wipes out all the a-la-carte II fees. No more annual fee, no more exchange fees. And with Marriott, no more lock off fees. So for a single lock off owner, that $205 annual DC fee easily pays for itself even if you plan to continue to exchange weeks in II. If they extend enrollment to Vistana weeks, it will be something for voluntary owners to consider as it could still save them a lot of money even with no intention to ever play in points.


----------



## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> The good thing is that when we enrolled our weeks in DC the single annual fee wipes out all the a-la-carte II fees. No more annual fee, no more exchange fees. And with Marriott, no more lock off fees. So for a single lock off owner, that $205 annual DC fee easily pays for itself even if you plan to continue to exchange weeks in II. If they extend enrollment to Vistana weeks, it will be something for voluntary owners to consider as it could still save them a lot of money even with no intention to ever play in points.



I understand, and is why I wrote it all depends on the cost to enroll, all things considered. At that point it’s a simple calc to determine how many years of typical II costs to realize the ROI, and hopefully a benefit.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Dean

CPNY said:


> You can’t rent a week in a resort you don’t own in. However you can let as many uncles and aunts you want to go using star options.


Are you suggesting one lie about the rental?


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## DannyTS

one must have very thick skin to  rent SOs. I would not be able to sleep at night knowing that the resort can deny check in to the renter.


----------



## Ken555

DannyTS said:


> one must have very thick skin to  rent SOs. I would not be able to sleep at night knowing that the resort can deny check in to the renter.



The same is true for renting II exchanges, yet we all know it happens. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CPNY

DannyTS said:


> one must have very thick skin to  rent SOs. I would not be able to sleep at night knowing that the resort can deny check in to the renter.





Dean said:


> Are you suggesting one lie about the rental?


Who said it was a lie? I have friends and family members use my star options all the time. It’s how it was sold to me. How is that an issue?


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> Are you suggesting one lie about the rental?


So with my deeded harborside week, if I book a week that I can’t get available until the 8 month mark because of the way the deeded fixed/float week works with availability, the reservation is seen as a Vistana signature experiences reservation not a home resort reservation. Are you saying I’m not allowed to rent that reservation?


----------



## DannyTS

CPNY said:


> Who said it was a lie? I have friends and family members use my star options all the time. It’s how it was sold to me. How is that an issue?


to be clear, I was speaking in general, I was not speculating that you were renting your star options to strangers or friends for a profit.


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## pchung6

CPNY said:


> I was thinking of picking up a. Vistana voluntary or MVC resort for II trades. Any suggestions.



SDO for Vistana. Grand Vista or Grand Chateau for MVC.


----------



## DannyTS

CPNY said:


> So with my deeded harborside week, if I book a week that I can’t get available until the 8 month mark because of the way the deeded fixed/float week works with availability, the reservation is seen as a Vistana signature experiences reservation not a home resort reservation. Are you saying I’m not allowed to rent that reservation?


I think the rule is clear, no VSN rental.


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## Dean

CPNY said:


> Who said it was a lie? I have friends and family members use my star options all the time. It’s how it was sold to me. How is that an issue?


It’s simply depends on the situation. If they are truly family members then it’s appropriate but it simply depends on the situation. If they’re truly family members then that’s appropriate if not then it’s not appropriate. It’s a reflection on the individual not the salesman. Two wrongs don’t make a right.


----------



## CPNY

DannyTS said:


> I think the rule is clear, no VSN rental.


Not how that was sold to me so if someone wants to go and take my week they can go for free. That isn’t a rental then


----------



## sjsharkie

DannyTS said:


> I think the rule is clear, no VSN rental.


This is not my understanding.

You can rent out as many reservations as you have ownerships for.  So in this case, if you do not elect your home reservation, you can rent out 1 SO reservation for every interval you own at that resort (and for which you do not elect to rent out a home reservation)

I dont have anything to cite, so you will have to look it up yourself.

Ryan

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## DannyTS

you may be right. When you change the guest name of a SO reservation, the terms and conditions are:
"*Except for Vacation Periods reserved at the Home Resort*, Network Members are prohibited from renting to a third-party any accommodation reserved through the Network’s exchange program, including accommodations of the External Exchange Program."
It appears that when renting a week at a resort you own, same season or not, you are ok.


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## CPNY

DannyTS said:


> you may be right. When you change the guest name of a SO reservation, the terms and conditions are:
> "*Except for Vacation Periods reserved at the Home Resort*, Network Members are prohibited from renting to a third-party any accommodation reserved through the Network’s exchange program, including accommodations of the External Exchange Program."
> It appears that when renting a week at a resort you own, same season or not, you are ok.


Define renting though. Having friends go when I don’t use my weeks, I assume that’s ok? Or really they don’t care if you rent which is why they added the 59 dollar fee to capitalize on rentals


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## bazzap

Ken555 said:


> The same is true for renting II exchanges, yet we all know it happens.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


As we know though, with II rentals, just sometimes the renters are denied check in on arrival and the owners do have their II membership suspended or cancelled.


----------



## Dean

CPNY said:


> Define renting though. Having friends go when I don’t use my weeks, I assume that’s ok? Or really they don’t care if you rent which is why they added the 59 dollar fee to capitalize on rentals


I think the definition is very simple, accepting any form or any amount of payment specifically in exchange for the timeshare.  This includes barter (including another week but could be anything) and includes below market $$ payments.  The amounts are really irrelevant to the definition.  But these are company rules and they have the right to waive them if they are given the chance and so decide to.  For example, if you read RCI's rules they don't allow renting and officially don't make any exceptions but semi officially they will allow you to recoup the exchange fee and guest cert fee and be OK but not more.  II doesn't even allow that.  

In general and speaking to the principle not to you directly, I want to be clear.  What one does speaks to their character, that someone else lied or tricked does not make it right, or even reasonable, for me to do the same to "get even" or because of the situation it has put me in.  Whether it be renting when it's against the rules or going over occupancy, it is dishonest to knowingly violate those rules unilaterally.  If one notified the timeshare officially that X or Y was a rental and they said OK for that rental directly, that's on them.  Telling the pool boy as he walks by or having the discussion with a salesperson 1 or 10 years ago would not pass the test.  The truth is it often is costly and difficult to be honest.  Knowing that rentals happen and not stopping it when they can is not the same as allowing them and does not change these statement.  Integrity is how you act when people aren't looking.  I do not believe in situational ethics.  

Specific to your statement "However you can let as many uncles and aunts you want to go using star options" is a true statement but in context it seemed clear you were suggesting to rent and say they're a relative.  If I misread that please let me know.


----------



## Dean

The more I think about the possibility of consolidation with these other systems and DC, the more i wonder if they'll stick to the rules already in place.  For example if they allow direct enrollment, I suspect they'll use the June 20, 2010 cutoff for resales and otherwise charge similar amounts as they do now for MVC for post 2010 resale.  For any additional layer crossover above their current system, I doubt the same will apply and for that type of combination I would suspect one would have to have the resale recorded by the date of the announcement.  But I also doubt that such a system will give direct access to the DC system at the same time as higher level enrolled owners.


----------



## JIMinNC

Dean said:


> The more I think about the possibility of consolidation with these other systems and DC, the more i wonder if they'll stick to the rules already in place.  For example if they allow direct enrollment, I suspect they'll use the June 20, 2010 cutoff for resales and otherwise charge similar amounts as they do now for MVC for post 2010 resale.  For any additional layer crossover above their current system, I doubt the same will apply and for that type of combination I would suspect one would have to have the resale recorded by the date of the announcement.  But I also doubt that such a system will give direct access to the DC system at the same time as higher level enrolled owners.



With direct DC enrollment I would not expect the 6/20/2010 date to change for current MVC owners. But just as Caribbean and Europe MVC owners have a different cut off date than US owners, I would expect the cutoff for VSE and/or Hyatt to be the announcement date.


----------



## amycurl

I am intrigued by the earlier references to Longboat and Saturday Villas, and Google has failed me. Does someone have more info/ links to these resorts? Interested to know more about them and “where are they now.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## bazzap

CPNY said:


> Define renting though. Having friends go when I don’t use my weeks, I assume that’s ok? Or really they don’t care if you rent which is why they added the 59 dollar fee to capitalize on rentals


This is the II document which details the Ts & Cs prohibiting commercial rentals.

“Guest Certificates may only be obtained for personal or noncommercial purposes. Failure to secure a Guest Certificate where required for a guest of the Member when the Member does not plan to occupy the Host Accommodations (including instances where the Member has been issued Confirmations for multiple units having the same travel dates at the same Member Resort), or obtaining Guest Certificates that are used for commercial purposes may result in termination of the membership and cancellation of any existing Confirmations, including those with future travel dates. Guests of Members who arrive at a Host Resort without a Guest Certificate will be denied access to the accommodations until the Member has purchased a Guest Certificate from II.”

https://www.intervalworld.com/iimedia/pdf/iw/buyers-guide.pdf


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## Dean

amycurl said:


> I am intrigued by the earlier references to Longboat and Saturday Villas, and Google has failed me. Does someone have more info/ links to these resorts? Interested to know more about them and “where are they now.”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'm sure others will know some of the earlier information better than I but I'll give it a shot.  These links may be helpful https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriott_Vacation_Club#History  & https://advantagevacation.com/marriott-vacation-club-history-and-update/.  Marriott started early on with Harbour Point, Monarch, Spicebush and Swallowtail and the Saturday villas all on HHI plus Vail.  Monarch was in construction and HP was complete with an established owner base at the time Marriott took over.  Saturday Villas were condo units here and there in 5 different complexes IIRC in Sea Pines that all started on Saturday.  The reason that Monarch has fixed week/fixed units and season options is due to the transition as I'm told.  There were a couple of others early on that were long gone by the time I became aware of the system, one in the Caribbean and one at Loon Mt in NH both of which exited fairly early and I don't believe either are timeshares at all today.  Longboat Bay Club is a 15 unit timeshare on Longboat Key south of Tampa that Marriott managed for I believe one contract cycle but actually came on a fair amount later and it was eliminated at the same time as Spicebush, Swallowtail, part of Vail, Saturday Villas, etc.  I don't know the history of Vail as well but part of it was also not built by Marriott.  Early additions included Sunset Point, additional Vail buildings, Harbour Point, Heritage and the World Center Orlando resorts.

I've stayed or visited most of these and HP was my first purchase for Marriott.  I considered a week at SB, ST & HP all for internal trading and decided on HP though I no longer own it.  Being a week 35 & having the resort quality issues made it a poor trader for my purposes but obviously SB/ST would have been even worse.


----------



## JIMinNC

Dean said:


> Early additions included Sunset Point, additional Vail buildings, Harbour Point, Heritage and the World Golf Village resorts.



I assume you mean World Center instead of World Golf Village. The golf village is in St Augustine and no MVC


----------



## amycurl

Thanks for the background! I am fascinated by this kind of history-of-development type stuff. *pushes her metaphorical nerdy glasses up her nose*

Quick question: do you remember what the name of the "Saturday Villas" resort might have been/might be now? I was aware of the history of Swallowtail and Spicebush, and, of course, of the other HHI resorts, but have never heard of this resort name before.


----------



## Dean

JIMinNC said:


> I assume you mean World Center instead of World Golf Village. The golf village is in St Augustine and no MVC


Yes, sorry, Bluegreen and Marriott Rolling around my head.


----------



## Dean

amycurl said:


> Thanks for the background! I am fascinated by this kind of history-of-development type stuff. *pushes her metaphorical nerdy glasses up her nose*


Sure, maybe someone even better informed than I can add/correct any information.  IMO it's important to understand the history to judge future risks.  I'm willing to bet that not all the resorts we have now in any and all systems will be with the company in a few years (like 5-7) but that might include historical MVC resorts like the rest of Vail & HP.


----------



## Dean

Another tidbit for HHI.  There used to be a central check in for most of the resorts right as you get to the Sea Pines Circle on the right going in.  I'm pretty sure Marriott still owns it and I'm thinking they use it for administrative purposes.  At one time there was a dedicated II rep at this location who would often run informational meetings following owners meetings but would also meet individually. I'm not currently aware of anywhere that has such reps for II but others may know differently.  RCI still does this in some places I believe.


----------



## amycurl

Dean said:


> Another tidbit for HHI.  There used to be a central check in for most of the resorts right as you get to the Sea Pines Circle on the right going in.  I'm pretty sure Marriott still owns it and I'm thinking they use it for administrative purposes.  At one time there was a dedicated II rep at this location who would often run informational meetings following owners meetings but would also meet individually. I'm not currently aware of anywhere that has such reps for II but others may know differently.  RCI still does this in some places I believe.



I do remember the central check-in building (we used it for at least our first stay, New Year's Day week in 2000, and perhaps later ones as well.) The building is still there and still has a Marriott sign on it, so I agree that they most likely still own it and use it for something. 

Sorry for this random tangent off of this thread!


----------



## SueDonJ

Dean said:


> Another tidbit for HHI.  There used to be a central check in for most of the resorts right as you get to the Sea Pines Circle on the right going in.  I'm pretty sure Marriott still owns it and I'm thinking they use it for administrative purposes.  At one time there was a dedicated II rep at this location who would often run informational meetings following owners meetings but would also meet individually. I'm not currently aware of anywhere that has such reps for II but others may know differently.  RCI still does this in some places I believe.



I think there's still a local II rep who occasionally holds "workshops" at some of the HHI resorts, Grande Ocean and SurfWatch that I know of, maybe Barony?


----------



## Dean

SueDonJ said:


> I think there's still a local II rep who occasionally holds "workshops" at some of the HHI resorts, Grande Ocean and SurfWatch that I know of, maybe Barony?


Maybe I haven't seen evidence of them in a number of years though.


----------



## SueDonJ

Dean said:


> Maybe I haven't seen evidence of them in a number of years though.



Yeah, I don't think they're as common as they used to be, when they were at least a weekly thing on the Activities schedules.


----------



## jme

There is an Interval rep who has, and has had, a private office at Grande Ocean for years,
located in the building where the front desk/lobby is.
Her name is Katrina Brown, and she is quite helpful with anything related to Interval.
Because of the construction of the new Activities Center at GO
which is currently underway, she is not sure if she'll retain her same office
or if it will be moved.


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> I think the definition is very simple, accepting any form or any amount of payment specifically in exchange for the timeshare.  This includes barter (including another week but could be anything) and includes below market $$ payments.  The amounts are really irrelevant to the definition.  But these are company rules and they have the right to waive them if they are given the chance and so decide to.  For example, if you read RCI's rules they don't allow renting and officially don't make any exceptions but semi officially they will allow you to recoup the exchange fee and guest cert fee and be OK but not more.  II doesn't even allow that.
> 
> In general and speaking to the principle not to you directly, I want to be clear.  What one does speaks to their character, that someone else lied or tricked does not make it right, or even reasonable, for me to do the same to "get even" or because of the situation it has put me in.  Whether it be renting when it's against the rules or going over occupancy, it is dishonest to knowingly violate those rules unilaterally.  If one notified the timeshare officially that X or Y was a rental and they said OK for that rental directly, that's on them.  Telling the pool boy as he walks by or having the discussion with a salesperson 1 or 10 years ago would not pass the test.  The truth is it often is costly and difficult to be honest.  Knowing that rentals happen and not stopping it when they can is not the same as allowing them and does not change these statement.  Integrity is how you act when people aren't looking.  I do not believe in situational ethics.
> 
> Specific to your statement "However you can let as many uncles and aunts you want to go using star options" is a true statement but in context it seemed clear you were suggesting to rent and say they're a relative.  If I misread that please let me know.


Yeah if I’m not using my timeshare and I have a friend use my banked points, I see zero problem in having them pay my maint fees and using the timeshare I book for them. There have been times I haven’t gone for 4-5 years at a time, this year I’m using it 3 times. Next year I have so many banked points that I’m having friends go for spring break week. They will be back paying the maint fees on the points I saved to have enough for the unit size and week. Is that a problem or am I supposed to pay 4K for their vacation?


----------



## Dean

CPNY said:


> Yeah if I’m not using my timeshare and I have a friend use my banked points, I see zero problem in having them pay my maint fees and using the timeshare I book for them. There have been times I haven’t gone for 4-5 years at a time, this year I’m using it 3 times. Next year I have so many banked points that I’m having friends go for spring break week. They will be back paying the maint fees on the points I saved to have enough for the unit size and week. Is that a problem or am I supposed to pay 4K for their vacation?


It's not necessarily a problem, it depends, but it is a rental plain and simple.  As I noted, it's often expensive to be honest.


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> It's not necessarily a problem, it depends, but it is a rental plain and simple.  As I noted, it's often expensive to be honest.


Let’s be friends, I’ll totally use your timeshares when you don’t use them at any given time


----------



## Dean

CPNY said:


> Let’s be friends, I’ll totally use your timeshares when you don’t use them at any given time


Or maybe I should use your extra points, LOL.  In your previous note you made a passive aggressive statement worded as a question "Is that a problem or am I supposed to pay 4K for their vacation?".  I don't buy any of the underlying premises but to answer the question as asked, the answer is yes if it means unilaterally violating the inherent rules as being discussed here.


----------



## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> Let’s be friends, I’ll totally use your timeshares when you don’t use them at any given time



It would totally blow your mind if you knew that some Marriott people have actually offered usage for free to their friends on the TUG boards, wouldn't it?


----------



## Dean

SueDonJ said:


> It would totally blow your mind if you knew that some Marriott people have actually offered usage for free to their friends on the TUG boards, wouldn't it?


We just got back from HHI Grande Ocean with eleven 2 BR units for a week on our dime and I've given a number of people, friends and just acquaintances, free reservations.  One I felt so bad about because they did the timeshare tour and bought resale.  I hadn't warned them but I was able to let them know their options retail while in the cancelation timeframe and they decide not to cancel.  Their choice, not my decision.


----------



## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> It would totally blow your mind if you knew that some Marriott people have actually offered usage for free to their friends on the TUG boards, wouldn't it?


Yeah it would blow my mind. I’d only give away free vacations to family. Or invited friends I’m traveling with, I wouldn’t charge them anything naturally. But If I can’t use a week and am not banking it, my friends can cover the maint fee that year and go. Gee, I guess I’m a bad friend for not paying 1,500 bucks and giving the week away for free lol.


----------



## CPNY

Dean said:


> Or maybe I should use your extra points, LOL.  In your previous note you made a passive aggressive statement worded as a question "Is that a problem or am I supposed to pay 4K for their vacation?".  I don't buy any of the underlying premises but to answer the question as asked, the answer is yes if it means unilaterally violating the inherent rules as being discussed here.


Not passive aggressive at all, and I’m sorry you felt that way. If their rules are no rentals then they shouldn’t charge to change the name of the reservation. That is not ethical, what’s next? Adding booking fee to book a reservation using our points? (Not passive aggressive) so if I’m Giving away usage to my friends (free to them) after I book a week with my points, then I have to pay a fee to change the name on the reservation. Why is that? That’s not ethical on their part, since I’m not renting the unit and am just giving it away.


----------



## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> Yeah it would blow my mind. I’d only give away free vacations to family. Or invited friends I’m traveling with, I wouldn’t charge them anything naturally. But If I can’t use a week and am not banking it, my friends can cover the maint fee that year and go. Gee, I guess I’m a bad friend for not paying 1,500 bucks and giving the week away for free lol.



My intent wasn't to say you're a bad friend, and I think you know that.

Dean's points about what the rules say and how some people stretch them aren't his alone. Ideally we all manage our ownerships so that we don't end up losing any usage - but on the rare occasions when it's in danger of happening, breaking the rules isn't the only option.


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## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> Not passive aggressive at all, and I’m sorry you felt that way. If their rules are no rentals then they shouldn’t charge to change the name of the reservation. That is not ethical, what’s next? Adding booking fee to book a reservation using our points? (Not passive aggressive) so if I’m Giving away usage to my friends (free to them) after I book a week with my points, then I have to pay a fee to change the name on the reservation. Why is that? That’s not ethical on their part, since I’m not renting the unit and am just giving it away.



That's one of the reasons why I like Marriott - they don't charge a transaction fee to put a guest's name on an owner's reservation.


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## Dean

CPNY said:


> Not passive aggressive at all, and I’m sorry you felt that way. If their rules are no rentals then they shouldn’t charge to change the name of the reservation. That is not ethical, what’s next? Adding booking fee to book a reservation using our points? (Not passive aggressive) so if I’m Giving away usage to my friends (free to them) after I book a week with my points, then I have to pay a fee to change the name on the reservation. Why is that? That’s not ethical on their part, since I’m not renting the unit and am just giving it away.


I disagree, if it's against their rules AND YOU KNOW IT and they don't waive the rules, it's inappropriate to do it as a rental, not mater if below market rates.  You're only giving it if you give it if you charge them the fees.  I'd agree if they only pay direct and immediate costs, like the exchange fee, it's reasonable but not the main fees.


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## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> My intent wasn't to say you're a bad friend, and I think you know that.
> 
> Dean's points about what the rules say and how some people stretch them aren't his alone. Ideally we all manage our ownerships so that we don't end up losing any usage - but on the rare occasions when it happens, breaking the rules isn't the only option.


I know you didn’t mean that. I was totally making a joke lol. I’m still bad at the emoticon thing and usually add an lol heh. 
Trust me I totally get it. I’ve been victim of the rental thing when trying to rent out my home resort period which is within the rules but since my maint fee was so high at that resort I needed to set the rental at Maintfee price while we were all undercut by people with many points charging much less. The point I’m trying to make is, it’s one thing to do that and make money and another to just cover your bases when you can’t use your ownership. Travel changes, this year I’m using two weeks, next year I have 3 Europe trips planned outside the scope of my VOI usage. I plan on renting those to people to pay the maint fee for at least one week. I don’t see that as an issue. Had people buy. Multiple VOI,s to rent out year after year just for making money then that I don’t agree with. I bought mine with the intent to use them. On occasion I let people benefit from paying a low fee (maint fee) and go on vacation. Win win for all. These rules they put into place aren’t for the benefit of the owner, which is why Vistana added a 59 dollar charge to change the name. They are making plenty of money, which is why they do nothing about it.  I wouldn’t be surprised if MVC opens a rental program with inventory booked in the future.


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## CPNY

Dean said:


> I disagree, if it's against their rules AND YOU KNOW IT and they don't waive the rules, it's inappropriate to do it as a rental, not mater if below market rates.  You're only giving it if you give it if you charge them the fees.  I'd agree if they only pay direct and immediate costs, like the exchange fee, it's reasonable but not the main fees.



Well here we are. I don’t rent. I give reservations to people I know.


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## Dean

CPNY said:


> Well here we are. I don’t rent. I give reservations to people I know.


As long as it's a true gift then you're OK.  Otherwise you're not no matter the wording.


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## kds4

Dean said:


> We just got back from HHI Grande Ocean with eleven 2 BR units for a week on our dime and I've given a number of people, friends and just acquaintances, free reservations.  One I felt so bad about because they did the timeshare tour and bought resale.  I hadn't warned them but I was able to let them know their options retail while in the cancelation timeframe and they decide not to cancel.  Their choice, not my decision.



Ditto. We've given away points stays to family, and friends, and even co-workers in situations where we would be unable to otherwise use them. While no monetary value was gained, we did have the satisfaction of seeing the points enjoyed by someone as opposed to literally having money in MFs go down the drain.


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## chemteach

Dean said:


> It's not necessarily a problem, it depends, but it is a rental plain and simple.  As I noted, it's often expensive to be honest.


Having friends use your timeshare and paying your maintenance fees is not a “commercial” business. I disagree with your description of what is or is not allowed.


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## Dean

chemteach said:


> Having friends use your timeshare and paying your maintenance fees is not a “commercial” business. I disagree with your description of what is or is not allowed.


Commercial business and being a rental are different things.  Anything over them paying for the additional expenses for the costs to change it to their name is a rental 100% of the time, there is no way to define otherwise.


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## SMB1

CPNY said:


> I know you didn’t mean that. I was totally making a joke lol. I’m still bad at the emoticon thing and usually add an lol heh.
> Trust me I totally get it. I’ve been victim of the rental thing when trying to rent out my home resort period which is within the rules but since my maint fee was so high at that resort I needed to set the rental at Maintfee price while we were all undercut by people with many points charging much less. The point I’m trying to make is, it’s one thing to do that and make money and another to just cover your bases when you can’t use your ownership. Travel changes, this year I’m using two weeks, next year I have 3 Europe trips planned outside the scope of my VOI usage. I plan on renting those to people to pay the maint fee for at least one week. I don’t see that as an issue. Had people buy. Multiple VOI,s to rent out year after year just for making money then that I don’t agree with. I bought mine with the intent to use them. On occasion I let people benefit from paying a low fee (maint fee) and go on vacation. Win win for all. These rules they put into place aren’t for the benefit of the owner, which is why Vistana added a 59 dollar charge to change the name. They are making plenty of money, which is why they do nothing about it.  I wouldn’t be surprised if MVC opens a rental program with inventory booked in the future.


I really don’t see it as an issue either. Luckily the two companies I own with allow rentals. If not, I honestly don’t know what I’d do. I probably would own so many points.  But it isn’t a big deal to me that you are covering your fees. That’s all I try to do. 

I remember reading something here in the past week or so and I think it was with Marriott about if I have multiple weeks reserved At the same resort for the same week that only the unit then I am occupying should have my name on it. If this is correct it is news to me. But I don’t feel bad that I was in violation of that rule if I was.


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## CPNY

SMB1 said:


> I really don’t see it as an issue either. Luckily the two companies I own with allow rentals. If not, I honestly don’t know what I’d do. I probably would own so many points.  But it isn’t a big deal to me that you are covering your fees. That’s all I try to do.
> 
> I remember reading something here in the past week or so and I think it was with Marriott about if I have multiple weeks reserved At the same resort for the same week that only the unit then I am occupying should have my name on it. If this is correct it is news to me. But I don’t feel bad that I was in violation of that rule if I was.


So if you had multiple weeks at the same resort your occupying with you going you’re all set. Rent the other 4 lol.


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## Dean

SMB1 said:


> I really don’t see it as an issue either. Luckily the two companies I own with allow rentals. If not, I honestly don’t know what I’d do. I probably would own so many points.  But it isn’t a big deal to me that you are covering your fees. That’s all I try to do.
> 
> I remember reading something here in the past week or so and I think it was with Marriott about if I have multiple weeks reserved At the same resort for the same week that only the unit then I am occupying should have my name on it. If this is correct it is news to me. But I don’t feel bad that I was in violation of that rule if I was.


It varies with the resort but they don't give you nights for more than one unit for the week normally.  Some companies, like Wyndham, get very aggressive in this area.  For example Wyndham's rules say if you have multiple weeks in your name and you don't change the rest they will cancel all but one and they may charge to change the name in some cases.  If they are exchanges they will technically request guest certificates for the other weeks as does Marriott.  Actually II's rules say if you let someone else use it and don't get a guest certificate you are in violation and your membership could be canceled.


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## CPNY

Dean said:


> It varies with the resort but they don't give you nights for more than one unit for the week normally.  Some companies, like Wyndham, get very aggressive in this area.  For example Wyndham's rules say if you have multiple weeks in your name and you don't change the rest they will cancel all but one and they may charge to change the name in some cases.  If they are exchanges they will technically request guest certificates for the other weeks as does Marriott.  Actually II's rules say if you let someone else use it and don't get a guest certificate you are in violation and your membership could be canceled.


Wait, so multiple weeks? Or do you mean multiple rooms on the same week? Multiple weeks tells me you can book more than one trip at a time?


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## Dean

CPNY said:


> Wait, so multiple weeks? Or do you mean multiple rooms on the same week? Multiple weeks tells me you can book more than one trip at a time?


Multiple week exchanges or reservations that are the same time or overlap.


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## CPNY

Dean said:


> Multiple week exchanges or reservations that are the same time or overlap.



Ok, makes sense. I’d think they wouldn’t make you change it right away. I book multiple rooms in a given week or overlap at the same resort if traveling with big group. I guess same week under my name at different locations is a different story.


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## Dean

CPNY said:


> Ok, makes sense. I’d think they wouldn’t make you change it right away. I book multiple rooms in a given week or overlap at the same resort if traveling with big group. I guess same week under my name at different locations is a different story.


No and I don't know if they follow through on their threats.  For our 11 units 2 weeks ago at Grande ocean, my name and/or Kim's name stayed on each of them and also our CC.  They simply added the other names so they'd know who was where.  But I was the one paying for it and I was the one actually doing the check in.


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## dioxide45

The problem is that "commercial activity" is not defined in any of the documents by Vistana or MVC.


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## Dean

dioxide45 said:


> The problem is that "commercial activity" is not defined in any of the documents by Vistana or MVC.


I can't speak for Vistana but for MVC and DVC they expressly allow renting and they have bans on commercial renting.  DVC has drawn a line in the sand of 20 reservations in a running year before they look at it or a website.  I don't see how the amount of profit could be used because they have not way of knowing the amount even if they wanted to.  But the issue I was referencing earlier is clear cut.  If renting is specifically banned and you rent (for any amount), you're in violation.  RCI will allow you to recoup direct expenses of exchange fee and guest cert fee but even this is not in writing, II won't even allow that.  It all comes back to what the rules are and what they allow and if they want to waive their rules, their choice but not ours.  And a "I'll let my _uncle  _use it and he'll pay for my house payment" doesn't alter that.


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## Ken555

Ok, enough with the rental discussion. We know where you all stand by now and any additional posts, unless you have new info to add, is superfluous. Sorry, but this is getting out of hand.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## chemteach

Oops. Replied to something, then saw Ken’s post. Deleting my post.


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## Fasttr

Received this one sheeter listing all of the ILG resorts, locations, and # of units at each... during my recent "owners update" at Grande Ocean.  Figured it was a good resource for the MVC folks (like me) who may not know all of the ILG resorts.  They did not attempt to pontificate on how cross usage of the resorts will be accomplished, only offered that MVC leadership is working on it, and they are hopeful there will be some cross pollination announced in 2020.  When I asked for her opinion of how it will be done, my rep indicated she figured it would be done via the MVC DC Exchange Company, and they will offer enrollment for a fee to ILG owners.  Again, this was just her educated guess.  Here is the attachment....


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## jabberwocky

Fasttr said:


> Received this one sheeter listing all of the ILG resorts, locations, and # of units at each... during my recent "owners update" at Grande Ocean.  Figured it was a good resource for the MVC folks (like me) who may not know all of the ILG resorts.  They did not attempt to pontificate on how cross usage of the resorts will be accomplished, only offered that MVC leadership is working on it, and they are hopeful there will be some cross pollination announced in 2020.  When I asked for her opinion of how it will be done, my rep indicated she figured it would be done via the MVC DC Exchange Company, and they will offer enrollment for a fee to ILG owners.  Again, this was just her educated guess.  Here is the attachment....



Funny how they use a 3 year old info sheet...you'd think they would come up with something more recent as Nanea and Cabo are no longer under construction.


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## Fasttr

jabberwocky said:


> Funny how they use a 3 year old info sheet...you'd think they would come up with something more recent as Nanea and Cabo are no longer under construction.


I think it just goes to show that the sales folks don’t know any more than we do on this topic, and are not being provided with any tangible info or documents on how the future may look, so they try to put their hands on whatever they can to make prospective customers feel that the future is bright with all the new resorts that will be coming online soon.


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## controller1

jabberwocky said:


> Funny how they use a 3 year old info sheet...you'd think they would come up with something more recent as Nanea and Cabo are no longer under construction.



Additionally, the St. Regis Residence Club properties are not bookable through Vistana ownership.


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## Dean

Fasttr said:


> I think it just goes to show that the sales folks don’t know any more than we do on this topic, and are not being provided with any tangible info or documents on how the future may look, so they try to put their hands on whatever they can to make prospective customers feel that the future is bright with all the new resorts that will be coming online soon.


IMO it's usual that they know less than we do about the product itself and often FAR less.  Obviously there is info they will have that we don't, esp related to sales, but I suspect the average salesperson learns more from an educated person during a sales presentation than the member does.


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## Fasttr

kds4 said:


> We had a discussion about the ILG acquisition and what some of the impacts on Marriott owners going forward will be. As it was a discussion only, everything I have said about the ILG deal is 'speculation'. We also had a discussion regarding upcoming internal changes to the Marriott Destination Points program, (which is why they encouraged me to buy more points as a condition of getting these new benefits). As part of that 2nd discussion, they told me these program changes/added benefits were already documented (for regulatory purposes) and should be formally announced as soon as October (when another points price increase is to also occur).
> 
> Since they told me documentation of these new ownership benefits existed, I asked to see proof before I would agree to buy anything because I would not just take their word for it. They agreed and I was shown and allowed to read some Marriott ownership documents that did detail some of the internal program changes/benefits they had been telling me about (and that are referenced generally in my sales contract). Since no one else on TUG has yet stated they have also seen any documentation, I accept my statements on these new owner benefits is speculation also for posting purposes (for now). However, having seen documents that back up what I was told, it's no longer speculation for me.


@kds4.... I realize this thread, that you intended to be about changes coming to the existing MVC program structure, quickly got away from you and turned into Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt "system merger" speculation (and even the title of the thread got changed on you), but circling back to your original intent which I quoted above, we are now in the month of October, the month you indicated where changes were coming .....curious to see if any big announcement comes regarding changes to the existing MVC system as we know it today (not "system merger" related), including a formal points buy back program, enhanced offerings for retail purchased Trust points, etc.

Is it just coincidence that for the last 2 days, this link (the one linked via the MVC site) to Owner Benefits no longer works..... could it be in the process of being updated.... or is it more likely just the typical IT failures of MVC...  Hmmmmm.....  ;-)
https://www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/common/cms/mvc/pdfs/owners/Owner-Benefit-Level.pdf


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## VacationForever

We just attended 2 sales / owners update, last week at Hilton Head and this week at Myrtle Beach, and there is no new information on the merger and its impact to owners.


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## kds4

Fasttr said:


> @kds4.... I realize this thread, that you intended to be about changes coming to the existing MVC program structure, quickly got away from you and turned into Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt "system merger" speculation (and even the title of the thread got changed on you), but circling back to your original intent which I quoted above, we are now in the month of October, the month you indicated where changes were coming .....curious to see if any big announcement comes regarding changes to the existing MVC system as we know it today (not "system merger" related), including a formal points buy back program, enhanced offerings for retail purchased Trust points, etc.
> 
> Is it just coincidence that for the last 2 days, this link (the one linked via the MVC site) to Owner Benefits no longer works..... could it be in the process of being updated.... or is it more likely just the typical IT failures of MVC...  Hmmmmm.....  ;-)
> https://www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/common/cms/mvc/pdfs/owners/Owner-Benefit-Level.pdf



The rep told us owner emails about Destination Club changes/enhancements would be going out in October to existing MVC owners. The points buyback/exit strategy option was the main one. We'll have to wait and see if/when anything shows up. As far as any merger related changes, we'll have to see if the investor's call on 10/4 provides any insights.


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## Fasttr

kds4 said:


> The rep told us owner emails about Destination Club changes/enhancements would be going out in October to existing MVC owners. The points buyback/exit strategy option was the main one. We'll have to wait and see if/when anything shows up.


October is quickly slipping away.  Do you remain confident that what you were shown was legit, or are you starting to fear it was simply a sales tactic?  Your level of concern must be ramping up a bit.  I know mine would be.  Hopefully you are still at peace with your purchase even if what you were told/shown never comes to fruition.


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## kds4

Fasttr said:


> October is quickly slipping away.  Do you remain confident that what you were shown was legit, or are you starting to fear it was simply a sales tactic?  Your level of concern must be ramping up a bit.  I know mine would be.  Hopefully you are still at peace with your purchase even if what you were told/shown never comes to fruition.



We're at peace regardless. While we had contemplated moving to CC at some point anyway and didn't go into debt for this purchase, we would be disappointed if we were shown fraudulent documents by an MVCI salesperson. A points buyback program is the main benefit we are interested in and the sales contract from this purchase does reference MVCI's intent to establish/operate a "resignation/resale program for Vacation Club Points Owners" (which is a representation that was made to us and shown in greater detail on the documents we reviewed). I guess (as with many things), time will tell and as they say, YMMV.


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