# It's Official PerryM is now an Enrolled Member of the New Destination Club!



## PerryM (Jul 7, 2010)

Woo-Hoo!

I enrolled our one Gold Summit Watch .... on 7/6/10!

So we are now part of the great new Marriott Vacation Destinations Club or is it Marriott Vacation Club Destinations?

I can't wait to abuse it and of course all the cat-calls for doing so - hey Marriott has now 2 set of rules to abuse - double the fun.

I am disappointed in Marriott for only being able to integrate but 1 out of 4 week owners but it sounds like that's the best they could do.  This, of course, is not good news for someone selling an eBook on the topic but we will see.

For those of you who decided to enroll, please share your abuse of the new program - I will.  (As someone who frequently gets a lot of heat, it is fun to abuse, I must admit)

Folks, this is just a business decision and if your blood pressure is elevated you've made it a personal decision and you are up against Marriott who only makes business decisions.  My advice is to dump the emotions, stop following the TUG lynch mob against Marriott and make this a cool and calm decision.

Well to all of my fellow enrollees congratulations on your decision.  To those who haven't pulled the trigger there really isn't a crushing time limit to worry about - learn and at the worst you don't have to do a thing and use your Marriott week(s) like you always have.

Let's see what I want to abuse first......


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## 5infam (Jul 7, 2010)

Since I asked you this question the other day "why haven't you joined" - it is nice to see that you followed through on your beliefs. So far, I can't see how this program can benefit me (or how I can "exploit it"), but I will be reading the E-Book you sent me to learn more about it. Glad it works for you!


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## dougp26364 (Jul 7, 2010)

I hope your correct in your decision but, I really think you allowed Marriott to create that sense of urgency to buy now. I hope you haven't jumped in before knowing all the facts or how this program is really going to work.

My personal opinion is to wait. There does not appear to be any need to rush into this desision. You, the timeshare expert should know this rule better than any other yet, once again I've watched you jump to a conclusion. I hope this one works out better than the last time. 

Of course, I have nothing to sell and no reason to join other than for personal use. My hope is you're not playing the role of the Pied Piper with E-books and Webinars.


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## PerryM (Jul 7, 2010)

5infam said:


> Since I asked you this question the other day "why haven't you joined" - it is nice to see that you followed through on your beliefs. So far, I can't see how this program can benefit me (or how I can "exploit it"), but I will be reading the E-Book you sent me to learn more about it. Glad it works for you!



I really expect Marriott to stop being a timeshare company and move beyond all that into "The whole package" - Marriott to supply unbelievable destination vacations where they are totally involved all the way except the ride to and from the airport.

I can't wait to see where they will take us...


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## PerryM (Jul 7, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I hope your correct in your decision but, I really think you allowed Marriott to create that sense of urgency to buy now. I hope you haven't jumped in before knowing all the facts or how this program is really going to work.
> 
> My personal opinion is to wait. There does not appear to be any need to rush into this desision. You, the timeshare expert should know this rule better than any other yet, once again I've watched you jump to a conclusion. I hope this one works out better than the last time.
> 
> Of course, I have nothing to sell and no reason to join other than for personal use. My hope is you're not playing the role of the Pied Piper with E-books and Webinars.



Hey, I bent over backwards to give my knowledge away - its up to each Marriott owner to make their decision and my book isn't needed by many of them.

I am planning the start of the abuse on July 26, 2010 when the computer programs come on line - I would not be surprised if I get a reservation that we would never have gotten with the Gold week by itself.

But time will tell...


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## buzzy (Jul 7, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Hey, I bent over backwards to give my knowledge away - its up to each Marriott owner to make their decision and my book isn't needed by many of them.
> 
> I am planning the start of the abuse on July 26, 2010 when the computer programs come on line - I would not be surprised if I get a reservation that we would never have gotten with the Gold week by itself.
> 
> But time will tell...



Is your theory that if you had a good trader prior to the new program, it will "hold its own" afterward but for those who had a gold or semi weak trader would be the most to benefit from the program?


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## PerryM (Jul 7, 2010)

buzzy said:


> Is your theory that if you had a good trader prior to the new program, it will "hold its own" afterward but for those who had a gold or semi weak trader would be the most to benefit from the program?



Everyone's case is different - I can't give a blanket answer here.

If you bought resale, and a bunch of them, and are looking for 10+ years of enjoyment from those weeks then enrolling sure sounds good to me - but it might not be.

I know that many Bronze Summit Watch owners, who get ZERO (0) Points, join just for the savings in fees - so that's a case where the Point system doesn't even work for them but enrolling is worth while.

P.S.
Like I said, so much to abuse, where to start first....


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## dougp26364 (Jul 7, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Hey, I bent over backwards to give my knowledge away - its up to each Marriott owner to make their decision and my book isn't needed by many of them.
> 
> I am planning the start of the abuse on July 26, 2010 when the computer programs come on line - I would not be surprised if I get a reservation that we would never have gotten with the Gold week by itself.
> 
> But time will tell...



Knowledge or opinion? There is a vast difference between the two. 

Again, Marriott's offer is on the table until Dec. 31st. They've left that offer in such a way as to create a sense of urgency. Something you've bought hook, line and sinker. It's the oldest game in the salemans pack of useful tools. An experienced timeshare purchaser like yourself should have seen that trick.

But I guess I should say thank you. After all, it's better to learn from someone else's mistakes than to learn from my own. If joining was a mistake, I have no doubt you'll let us all know soon enough. Either that or you'll disappear for a long time again until something else trips your trigger.


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## Whirl (Jul 7, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I am planning the start of the abuse on July 26, 2010 when the computer programs come on line - I would not be surprised if I get a reservation that we would never have gotten with the Gold week by itself.
> 
> But time will tell...



Timing  is my dilemma. I have decided at this point that I will enroll.  I  believe that as an early adopter, there will be some great opportunities as well. 

On the other hand , I am travelling to Crystal Shores in a few weeks and I am tempted to see if it is worth getting a few extra MRPs  to tolerate listening the spiel...as I write this, I realize I am crazy....I will be on vacation and spending precious time with my kids...I dont want to waste it cozied up with a salesman. I am sure I know more and have been exposed to more here on TUG than I would ever encounter in a presentation..

One thing I certainly agree with, Perry, is that there really is no use lamenting the past. Change is here, so you can dig your heels in and fight a futile fight, or use it to your advantage, if you can.

I think I am fortunate enough to be able to use it to my advantage. The lack of flexibility is the thing I have always liked the least about timesharing...and now, albeit at a bit of a premium, I potentially have it. 

Might turn out to be wrong, but my efforts are better served trying to make this plan work for me, rather than fight against it. 

.....Race you to the best points trade!



I think signing up now is the way to go....Hoping to get some great early exchanges..... On your mark, get set...go.


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## PerryM (Jul 7, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Knowledge or opinion? There is a vast difference between the two.
> 
> Again, Marriott's offer is on the table until Dec. 31st. *They've left that offer in such a way as to create a sense of urgency*. Something you've bought hook, line and sinker. It's the oldest game in the salemans pack of useful tools. An experienced timeshare purchaser like yourself should have seen that trick.
> 
> But I guess I should say thank you. After all, it's better to learn from someone else's mistakes than to learn from my own. If joining was a mistake, I have no doubt you'll let us all know soon enough. Either that or you'll disappear for a long time again until something else trips your trigger.



Well, they are a Destination Club and that's what DCs do - instill a reason to buy for may reasons.

Marriott can raise the fees anytime they want - there is no definitive ruling from them that I know of.

They can stop the Week integration anytime they want (continue those that signed up of course) - I don't see where they must have week folks along on their new venture.

I still think this was a very dangerous time to do this but Marriott did it and all we can do is follow their rules - which they can change if they want.

I know that week owners have a leg up on Ma and Pa who walk into the Marriott Sales Gallery and buy Beneficial Interests.  We have 2 sets of rules to exploit and abuse to our benefit.

I believe the $10 ($9.20 - $9.40 in promos at the moment) is way too low and it won't ever get cheaper but will do the normal price increase as new owners buy in.

So yes Marriott is doing what every business does in a free market - apply pressure to buy sooner versus later.


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## AceValenta (Jul 7, 2010)

I joined...Why not?! I read the posts here and decided not to comment but to absorb the information and digest. 

I own two resale weeks and it made sense to me. I got two new options for my weeks and I will no longer have the scarlet letter "R" associated with my weeks. 

I even went ahead and purchased 1,000 more points in the system. I can either combine them with my weeks or carry them over and total them up for another vacation. 

While many will say that this was the wrong decision, my wife and I are happy with it. I think in the end that is all that matters! 

We are looking forward to having more options with our vacations. Weeks for Weeks is great but now we have the option to trade for Marriott Rewards Points, Destination Points or just reserve our weeks and trade the way we were accustomed. 

Some will want the new program and some will not......Free Will is a marvelous thing!


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## Fredm (Jul 7, 2010)

AceValenta said:


> While many will say that this was the wrong decision, *my wife and I are happy with it. I think in the end that is all that matters! *
> 
> We are looking forward to having more options with our vacations. Weeks for Weeks is great but now we have the option to trade for Marriott Rewards Points, Destination Points or just reserve our weeks and trade the way we were accustomed.
> 
> Some will want the new program and some will not......Free Will is a marvelous thing!



Amen! Congrats.


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## PerryM (Jul 7, 2010)

AceValenta said:


> I joined...*Why not?!* I read the posts here and decided not to comment but to absorb the information and digest.
> 
> I own two resale weeks and it made sense to me. I got two new options for my weeks and I will no longer have the scarlet letter "R" associated with my weeks.
> 
> ...



Congratulations on your decision - either way; and you have decided to not only enroll your weeks but buy 1,000 Vacation Points (4 Beneficial Interests, the min for a Marriott owner).

I'm happy for you and your wife!  Now let's start to figure out how to maximize your investment (Can I say that word here on TUG?  Investment)


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## dougp26364 (Jul 7, 2010)

AceValenta said:


> I joined...Why not?! I read the posts here and decided not to comment but to absorb the information and digest.
> 
> I own two resale weeks and it made sense to me. I got two new options for my weeks and I will no longer have the scarlet letter "R" associated with my weeks.
> 
> ...



I've said before that I believe the program looks good.

Why not? Because none of us really know how this program works yet. I just don't see the urgency to jump in other than the irrational fear that Marriott will increase prices before Dec. 31st.


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## PerryM (Jul 7, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I've said before that I believe the program looks good.
> 
> Why not? Because none of us really know how this program works yet. I just don't see the urgency to jump in other than the irrational fear that Marriott will increase prices before Dec. 31st.



July 26, 2010 the reservation system goes live and you can use all the new rules to exploit vacations that you can't with weeks.

So no pressure from Marriott but just greed to beat fellow Marriott owners to some fantastic vacations that week folks can only dream about...


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## PerryM (Jul 7, 2010)

*Why not let new members revel in their decision?*

TUG is so negative about this new Marriott Program.

Why not let us have one thread devoted to folks who put their money where their mouth is and let us congratulate them.

There are a zillion other threads devoted to bashing the hell out of Marriott, and Starwood, and Westgate, and WorldMark...


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## SueDonJ (Jul 7, 2010)

SueDonJ congratulates PerryM on embarking on his Most Excellent Adventure!

(Sorry, Perry, couldn't resist.  But I am glad you're happy even if the "PerryM says" stuff does sound a bit pompous.)


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## AceValenta (Jul 7, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I'm happy for you and your wife!  Now let's start to figure out how to maximize your investment (Can I say that word here on TUG?  Investment)



I have been looking at the Destinations Points Chart and the calculation system...I think I can figure something out. I think flexibility is the key to this system, and the more you are the better you will do. That is why Legacy owners have the added advantage of keeping their weeks each year or converting to the Destination Points. 

If you are used to selecting one or two specific weeks, then you will have problems. 

Life is a journey....Enjoy it!


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## PerryM (Jul 7, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> SueDonJ congratulates PerryM on embarking on his Most Excellent Adventure!
> 
> (Sorry, Perry, couldn't resist.  But I am glad you're happy even if the "PerryM says" stuff does sound a bit pompous.)



Gee - there are plenty of threads, over the years, by others that use my name in the thread - I don't remember folks getting upset then...

But thanks for the congratulation.


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## PerryM (Jul 7, 2010)

AceValenta said:


> I have been looking at the Destinations Points Chart and the calculation system...I think I can figure something out. *I think flexibility is the key to this system*, and the more you are the better you will do. That is why Legacy owners have the added advantage of keeping their weeks each year or converting to the Destination Points.
> 
> If you are used to selecting one or two specific weeks, then you will have problems.
> 
> Life is a journey....Enjoy it!



Flexibility is king with a Point system but Marriott went way beyond that in what they offered us.

Like I said before, on the night of June 21 at 12:05 AM when they released the new program and I read about owners being allowed to exchange Points among themselves for no cost, I knew Marriott had created a very owner friendly system begging to be used to the maximum.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 7, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Gee - there are plenty of threads, over the years, by others that use my name in the thread - I don't remember folks getting upset then...
> 
> But thanks for the congratulation.



Not upset, Perry, just noticing for the first time, probably since it was pointed out, the first- (or third-?) person way you're posting these days.  No big deal, no insult intended, just having fun.

And I am sincerely happy for you - we joined too, thinking that it's another option that can make our weeks' usage even more valuable.


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## laurac260 (Jul 7, 2010)

whew!  I can't tell you how relieved I am about this.  Now maybe the board can go back to what it is originally supposed to be about, "Marriott Resorts".  I was starting to think someone had changed the name to "Perry's Board--all Perry, all the time".  But then I remembered there is already a website dedicated to Perry, just see the bottom of his posts if you want to go THERE.   Personally, I'd like to talk about RESORTS!!


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## PerryM (Jul 7, 2010)

*Warning: Pirates ahead captain...*



SueDonJ said:


> Not upset, Perry, just noticing for the first time, probably since it was pointed out, the first- (or third-?) person way you're posting these days.  No big deal, no insult intended, just having fun.
> 
> And I am sincerely happy for you - we joined too, thinking that it's another option that can make our weeks' usage even more valuable.



Thank you Sue.

I almost feel like building a Pirate Ship where we can sneak in, under the cover of ignorance, and pillage Marriott and hapless owners - oh what a thought....


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## LAX Mom (Jul 7, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I believe the $10 ($9.20 - $9.40 in promos at the moment) is way too low and it won't ever get cheaper but will do the normal price increase as new owners buy in.



Perry,
How can you say that $10 is way too low? When you compare the prices Marriott was charging for a week at Newport Coast, Ko'Olina, Maui, etc. just recently then $10 per point seems extremely high to me. 

If you figure out the points required to make a platinum reservation using points it costs much more to buy the points at $10 per point than it did to purchase a week from Marriott.


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## RBERR1 (Jul 7, 2010)

AceValenta said:


> I joined...Why not?! I read the posts here and decided not to comment but to absorb the information and digest.
> 
> I own two resale weeks and it made sense to me. I got two new options for my weeks and I will no longer have the scarlet letter "R" associated with my weeks.
> 
> ...



Curious what your two resale weeks were and how many points you had before purchasing.  
Did they tell you that the minimum you could buy was 250 or 1000?  They have given me mixed info on this and it makes it very confusing.


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## eileenpat (Jul 7, 2010)

*Positive and Negative*

Good luck to all who have made a decision. We envy you!  However, to date, I have received one piece of mail from Marriott with respect to the program.  So, I do appreciate many of the debates.  Information is power and even when in contact with the three owner boards at resorts we own, there seems to be very little consistent information.  Hopefully, those who have enrolled in the program and will be using it may be able to give us a "real" feel for it!
Thank you for your input. It will help us to make an informed, economic decision.


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## PerryM (Jul 7, 2010)

LAX Mom said:


> Perry,
> How can you say that $10 is way too low? When you compare the prices Marriott was charging for a week at Newport Coast, Ko'Olina, Maui, etc. just recently then $10 per point seems extremely high to me.
> 
> If you figure out the points required to make a platinum reservation using points it costs much more to buy the points at $10 per point than it did to purchase a week from Marriott.



Well why stop at $10, why not just proclaim that Marriott should be charging $1 a Point.

Does anyone here think Marriott will be slashing the price for their new DC from $10 to $5?  Of course not.

Marriott will increase the price as needed and 5 years from now $10 will be fondly thought of as something "those lucky dogs" got today.

These are typical Marriott pre-construction prices that they offer on every new project they develop - this is NO different.


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## PerryM (Jul 7, 2010)

RBERR1 said:


> Curious what your two resale weeks were and how many points you had before purchasing.
> Did they tell you that the minimum you could buy was 250 or 1000?  They have given me mixed info on this and it makes it very confusing.



Marriott does NOT sell Points - they sell Beneficial Interests (BI) that each year generate 250 Vacation Points and the minimum number of BI in a current Marriott Owner's account is 4, or 1,000 Vacation Points generated annually on your Anniversary Date.

Ma and Pa walking in the front door must buy 6 BIs if they don't own a Marriott week now (1,500 Vacation Points)

So guys, you don't have to put up $1 to buy a BI in order to use and abuse their new Point System - how much is that worth?  Is it worth the price of "skimming?" Hmmmmmmm


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## DanCali (Jul 7, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I believe the $10 ($9.20 - $9.40 in promos at the moment) is way too low and it won't ever get cheaper but will do the normal price increase as new owners buy in.



You lost any form of credibility by saying this...

So someone who wants to go to Maui every year (forget banking) in the summer and get an OV needs to spend $70K + $2800 a year in MFs for 1 week of vacation... 

...and you call that low? Why ? Because "rack rates" say it's $6K per week? And you conveniently ignore the opportunity cost of keeping the $70K in a CD earning 3% ($2K+ a year) rather than losing it all to depreciation by the developer 7 days after you buy?


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## DanCali (Jul 7, 2010)

LAX Mom said:


> Perry,
> How can you say that $10 is way too low? When you compare the prices Marriott was charging for a week at Newport Coast, Ko'Olina, Maui, etc. just recently then $10 per point seems extremely high to me.
> 
> If you figure out the points required to make a platinum reservation using points it costs much more to buy the points at $10 per point than it did to purchase a week from Marriott.



Actually, they adjusted the prices of weeks "post mortem" to make them commensurate with the points you get...

My NCV Platinum got 3475 points - last price in their sheets is $36K... As of 3 months ago, that was the price of a PP week 26 (before the 20% discount).

Your points is still very valid though. You still need 4700 points for a summer week, so now it takes $47K (+ $1900 in MFs) to buy that amount.


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## PerryM (Jul 7, 2010)

DanCali said:


> You lost any form of credibility by saying this...
> 
> So someone who wants to go to Maui every year (forget banking) in the summer and get an OV needs to spend $70K + $2800 a year in MFs for 1 week of vacation...
> 
> ...and you call that low? Why ? Because "rack rates" say it's $6K per week? And you conveniently ignore the opportunity cost of keeping the $70K in a CD earning 3% ($2K+ a year) rather than losing it all to depreciation by the developer 7 days after you buy?



Banking and borrowing are key attributes of a Point system - you can't leave them out.

My Gold Summit Watch generates 2,150 Points a year - unless I see something that makes my knees wobble we will bank those Points forward and the next year easily be able to stay at the MOC - hell I can do that with 2,150 Points if I see a few days open in the middle of the week.

Guys, if you want to look at this new Point System hobbled with week concepts you miss out on huge opportunities to vacation in ways that weeks will never be able to snag.


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## thadius65 (Jul 7, 2010)

Perry,

Quick question.

I own 1 gold week at aruba surf club.  It is a 2bdrm oceanside.  Previously others have traded well into Hawaii.  Now due to what appears to be devaluation, I cannot with points.  Example:

I get 3075 for my "week" if enrolled.  To get into Maui, it is nearly double for like size now, which was previously a fairly getable II trade.

So I am struggling with paying $1500 for a resale week where I have lost "Flexibility" (seems to be a catch phrase at presenations).

Help?  What am I missing?

Thanks for your help - and not jumping on negative bandwagon until I have ALL the facts I can acquire.

Ted


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## LAX Mom (Jul 7, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I know that many Bronze Summit Watch owners, who get ZERO (0) Points, join just for the savings in fees - so that's a case where the Point system doesn't even work for them but enrolling is worth while.



Perry, 

I've been told by Marriott (several times, the most recent being yesterday) that my Summit Watch bronze not only gets 0 points, but also that it isn't eligible for enrollment. They said this was a decision made by Summit Watch (makes no sense to me). Anyway, I've been told I can enroll my Summit Watch silver and receive 1,400 points should I exchange for points, but the bronze week cannot be enrolled. 

I see no reason to pay MF's of almost $1,100 for an option that only gets me 1,400 points. I'll stay with II and if those great Marriott exchanges during Flexchange are no longer available I'll just sell my weeks on ebay. I have no interest in enrolling with Marriott when I know I'll continue to use II for my exchanges. I know I'd save on lock-off fees & exchange fees, but it would take 10+ years to break even. 

Congrats to you on your enrollment. Hope the points system works for you. It will be interesting to see what inventory is available on July 26. Good luck!


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## DanCali (Jul 7, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Banking and borrowing are key attributes of a Point system - you can't leave them out.
> 
> My Gold Summit Watch generates 2,150 Points a year - unless I see something that makes my knees wobble we will bank those Points forward and the next year easily be able to stay at the MOC - hell I can do that with 2,150 Points if I see a few days open in the middle of the week.
> 
> Guys, if you want to look at this new Point System hobbled with week concepts you miss out on huge opportunities to vacation in ways that weeks will never be able to snag.



But I want Maui every year! How is $10/point cheap with that objective in mind...?


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## LAX Mom (Jul 7, 2010)

DanCali said:


> My NCV Platinum got 3475 points - last price in their sheets is $36K... As of 3 months ago, that was the price of a PP week 26 (before the 20% discount).
> 
> Your points is still very valid though. You still need 4700 points for a summer week, so now it takes $47K (+ $1900 in MFs) to buy that amount.



Exactly, Marriott has given us big price increases with this new points system. Just 3 months ago you could purchase a week 26 for $36K (minus a 20% "discount"). Now if you want to buy the points for that same week it will cost you $47K with almost double the MF. 

In this economy Marriott thinks they can sell this new program to the public?


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## DanCali (Jul 7, 2010)

LAX Mom said:


> Exactly, Marriott has given us big price increases with this new points system. Just 3 months ago you could purchase a week 26 for $36K (minus a 20% "discount"). Now if you want to buy the points for that same week it will cost you $47K with almost double the MF.
> 
> In this economy Marriott thinks they can sell this new program to the public?



Almost... it's 4700 for July and August weeks but 5675 points for week 26...  But what's $56,750 + $2300 in MFs if you get to spend 4th of July every year at NCV? (incidentally - RedWeek July 4 rentals are less than $2300, and no need to spend $57K upfront). Still, apparently $10/point is a bargain...

On a separate note - at least the owners of those week 26 VOIs got more than 3475 points...

Perry - I truly don't mean to hijack your thread, but saying $10/point is cheap because you can bank and borrow and go once every 3 years to where you want to go is a stretch... First off, you vacation once every 3 years and second, you know very well the system will not be sold that way to the average Joe. They will sell him on 7000 points if they can. And that is a ripoff.


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## LAX Mom (Jul 7, 2010)

DanCali said:


> But I want Maui every year! How is $10/point cheap with that objective in mind...?



It's not, it will cost you lots of $$$.
If you use Perry's idea of banking points then you're paying double the MF for a Maui stay. Still not a bad option at $2,200 (2 years MF at Summit Watch), but what if you need 4 or 5 times your point allowance to book a week at Maui? It's too expensive using points when we are used to II exchanges.


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## GregT (Jul 7, 2010)

*Companion Systems?*

All,

There may be a role for a companion system (like Worldmark and Wyndham) to accompany your Marriott points (if you choose to enroll and redeem your property).

Example (Perry I hope you don't mind my using you as an example):

Imagine Perry redeems his Summit Watch for 2,150 points and banks those points and has 4,300 to work with.

Perry could book a 1BR OV at MOC in a shoulder season for 11 days (Mon thru Thurs) for 5,900 points (he will need to rent 1,600 points from someone for $800).   Therefore he could be satisfied with a 1BR OV for 11 days for $800.

However, Perry wants a 2BR for his 11 day MOC adventure.  He then submits exchange requests thru II (using his companion system of Worldmark, at 4,000 credits apiece) for each of two weeks.   He'll need to rent those 8,000 credits for $440 from some WM owner since he doesn't own the credits (note: he might need to use more credits since MOC may be a tougher trade than Ko Olina, but I have no problem getting KOL studio's for 4,000 credits, so this may be a KOL strategy).

He calls MOC and has them bolt the studios onto the 1BR so he's created a 2BR for 11 days at MOC (and has 3 throw away days in a studio).  He keeps canceling any exchanges until he gets Ocean View category studios.

He can book airfare now with Monday and Thursday flight days.

His cost is:

MFs for Summit Watch for 2 years $2,000  ("sunk cost")
Marriott points rental:  $800   ("true out of pocket")
WM points rental:  $440  ("true out of pocket")
II trades (for WM's):  $300 ("true out of pocket")

He spent $3,540 for his 11 day 2BR OV at MOC.  For comparison, assume he just booked a 2BR OV straight using Marriott points for 11 days:  requires 8,850 points -- and he has 4,300 to work with.  

Renting the other 4,500 points will cost him $2,250, so a total cost of $4,250 including his MFs (as compared to his $3,540).

It's seems like a lot of work to do this, but saving $700 is not insignificant.  It should be easy for Perry to get those trades for his WM -- but the possibility of this is due to having a companion trader.  Of course, if he hadn't been skimmed in the first place he wouldn't have had to do all this crap...........................(sorry)

Alternatively, Perry could use his WM to book into Kaanapali Beach Club (easy trade for WM) and then use his points for 4-5 nights at MOC.    

The Marriott points can also be used to extend other trips that are possible from companion systems.

Interesting to think about.

Good luck to all,

Greg


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## dougp26364 (Jul 7, 2010)

PerryM said:


> July 26, 2010 the reservation system goes live and you can use all the new rules to exploit vacations that you can't with weeks.
> 
> So no pressure from Marriott but just greed to beat fellow Marriott owners to some fantastic vacations that week folks can only dream about...



You're sounding more and more like a salesman all the time. Those same great vacations will be there in another six months. There is no hurry and no need to jump. Whipping people into a frenzy when none of us have seen the real results is foolhardy at best.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 7, 2010)

PerryM said:


> TUG is so negative about this new Marriott Program.
> 
> Why not let us have one thread devoted to folks who put their money where their mouth is and let us congratulate them.
> 
> There are a zillion other threads devoted to bashing the hell out of Marriott, and Starwood, and Westgate, and WorldMark...



There is a diffrerence between negativity (have you read some of your old posts lately?) and being cautious. There are many points programs out there. This one appears to be the compilation of Marriott closing the loop holes that exist in other programs. It's more restrictive than many programs out there and, for many legacy week owners, doesn't always represent a good value.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 7, 2010)

Oceans said:


> Good luck to all who have made a decision. We envy you!  However, to date, I have received one piece of mail from Marriott with respect to the program.  So, I do appreciate many of the debates.  Information is power and even when in contact with the three owner boards at resorts we own, there seems to be very little consistent information.  Hopefully, those who have enrolled in the program and will be using it may be able to give us a "real" feel for it!
> Thank you for your input. It will help us to make an informed, economic decision.



This is the #1 reason I urge caution, there may be danger ahead. 

I've seen the result of Perry jumping to conclusions, proclaiming a project the #1 timeshare in the world, making statements experienced TUGGERS knew weren't true then seeing Perry errase all his posts to cover his tracks. 

This very well could be a good program. I see opportunities that I can use but, I'm a multiple week owner who pays a good chunk of change with Marriott's ala carte pricing. On the flip side, I see very little efficient usage if I convert my points to weeks. There are times when coverting to points makes sense either with selection of a specific unit view or for shoulder season exchanges but, those opportunities are few and far between. Purchasing more points permanetly marrys me to a program in in infancy and to a program no one knows for sure how it's going to work out.

If this is the right thing for Perry to do then I'm happy for him. I'm just wondering where he's going to be standing on this program in another year. This one will probably work out better than his last proclamation. He's dealing with a little better name in timesharing this time around. But there are still unknowns and there is plenty of time to ponder the possibilities before signing up and handing over the cash.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 7, 2010)

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> There may be a role for a companion system (like Worldmark and Wyndham) to accompany your Marriott points (if you choose to enroll and redeem your property).
> 
> ...



This is so complicated that it's not worth even attempting.  There are so many easier ways to accomplish a similar result.

The idea of companion systems is correct.  The convoluted approach you suggest is typical Perry and is something I absolutely reject for the average timesharing person.


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## MALC9990 (Jul 7, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Thank you Sue.
> 
> I almost feel like building a Pirate Ship where we can sneak in, under the cover of ignorance, and pillage Marriott and hapless owners - oh what a thought....



Perry - here is a question for you. I am a Marriott owner with both developer and resale weeks. However none of my resorts are in the USA and so we are excluded from the new Marriott points system.

Whilst I can continue to use my weeks at my home rersorts in Spain and Thailand, I also use II to get some great exchanges into other Marriott and non-Marriott resorts around the world.

So my question is - how is this new system going to impact me. If I want to exchange my weeks in Spain or Thailand for weeks at a Marriott in the USA through II - what is the likely impact on availability?

My weeks are all high season (Gold and Platinum) and so far I have had 100% success in my exchange requests through II.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 7, 2010)

DanCali said:


> You lost any form of credibility by saying this...
> 
> So someone who wants to go to Maui every year (forget banking) in the summer and get an OV needs to spend $70K + $2800 a year in MFs for 1 week of vacation...
> 
> ...and you call that low? Why ? Because "rack rates" say it's $6K per week? And you conveniently ignore the opportunity cost of keeping the $70K in a CD earning 3% ($2K+ a year) rather than losing it all to depreciation by the developer 7 days after you buy?



Perry is on the record as considering timeshare purchases a luxury item whose upfront costs should have absolutely no bearing on cost of vacationing.

When he said that about 5 years ago, I knew his analytical skills were suspect.


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## GregT (Jul 7, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> This is so complicated that it's not worth even attempting.  *There are so many easier ways to accomplish a similar result.*
> 
> The idea of companion systems is correct.  The convoluted approach you suggest is typical Perry and is something I absolutely reject for the average timesharing person.




Come on Boca!!  What are they?  Please share  !


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## timeos2 (Jul 7, 2010)

*There is no rush*



dougp26364 said:


> This is the #1 reason I urge caution, there may be danger ahead.
> 
> I've seen the result of Perry jumping to conclusions, proclaiming a project the #1 timeshare in the world, making statements experienced TUGGERS knew weren't true then seeing Perry errase all his posts to cover his tracks.
> 
> ...



Oh boy, here you go using facts rather than good old exciting speculation and hype!  If you're not careful you too can be on the list of those ever so desperately trying to bring some temperance into the "excitement" of this roll out of yet another fairly pedestrian points system, long overdue, from a big player. There is nothing that requires a frenzied evaluation and / or action from any current owner. Those possibly interested should take their time, read carefully (but don't waste you time/effort on the way overblown threads that got posted pre-June 20), look at the offer(s) and decide do you want what you bought or is an option for another way to trade a value for the price to YOU.  

I know Doug thinks these things through and makes the best choices for his situation. If every timeshare owner was half as careful there would far less problems. Trying to follow the latest "greatest thing" or convoluted plan is usually way beyond the average timeshare owner / potential owner and few want/will put the type of time and effort required to milk the last possible nickle of value out of what they own. For most the best bet is buy where you want to go and into system(s) that give you the best bang for the dollar when you wish to trade.  Beyond that it gets dicey and is best used by those that can suffer some financial losses and or an investment in time & money few make.  Timeshare is best viewed as a vacation option - not much more and easily less.    

Slow down, read & learn and do what will fit your style best.


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## sdtugger (Jul 7, 2010)

LAX Mom said:


> Perry,
> 
> I've been told by Marriott (several times, the most recent being yesterday) that my Summit Watch bronze not only gets 0 points, but also that it isn't eligible for enrollment. They said this was a decision made by Summit Watch (makes no sense to me).



I asked the same question and was told that I would get 0 points for a SW bronze week.  However, I was told that I could still ENROLL a SW bronze week into the points system and trade it using a corporate II account under the one MVCI annual fee.  This is a HUGE distinction.  My membership rep. double checked with a supervisor so I believe that it is true.  The other supporting fact is that the SW bronze week is available to enroll as an "internal" enrollment on my MVCI page.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 7, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Banking and borrowing are key attributes of a Point system - you can't leave them out.
> 
> My Gold Summit Watch generates 2,150 Points a year - unless I see something that makes my knees wobble we will bank those Points forward and the next year easily be able to stay at the MOC - hell I can do that with 2,150 Points if I see a few days open in the middle of the week.
> 
> Guys, if you want to look at this new Point System hobbled with week concepts you miss out on huge opportunities to vacation in ways that weeks will never be able to snag.



Banking and borrowing are very fine things indeed. It will allow a dog to trade into a penthouse. You have to remember one very important item and be willing to pay the price. With banking/borrowing, you're turning an every year ownership into a bi-annual or even tri-annual ownership, but you still get to pay MF's every year.

Prior to the magic of points, one had to deposit, wait and pray or, utilize flex change but, your annual ownership was still an annual ownership to be paid on and used every year. 

There's nothing wrong with banking/borrowing so long as you're willing to turn every year usage into EOY or every three year usage. For some that's worth it but, it's hardly the greatest thing since sliced bread.

For owners who bought a low season week and then decided they wanted to move up but, didn't want to do an equity trade or buy another week, points may make sense to them. It's a way to move up without buying another week or, buy the few points needed to move up without buying a new week. 

There are angles to be worked but one has to also understand there is a cost and the pitfalls of doing these things. I still stand the ground that there is no rush. Each owner should take their time, analyze the values and cost and then make their decision based on rational thought and not the impulse to be the first or get the best trades. Getting the best trades will never be about being the first to join this program. A year from now, no one will care who was first or who had the first opportunity. It will be a relatively level playing field.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 7, 2010)

LAX Mom said:


> It's not, it will cost you lots of $$$.
> If you use Perry's idea of banking points then you're paying double the MF for a Maui stay. Still not a bad option at $2,200 (2 years MF at Summit Watch), but what if you need 4 or 5 times your point allowance to book a week at Maui? It's too expensive using points when we are used to II exchanges.



Rational thoughts and analysis lead to informed decisions. Banking/borrowing is fine but, it has a cost. 

I own a 2 bedroom standard view unit with HGVC at the LV Strip. A few years later they were offering penthouse views that we fell in love with. They refused to do an equity exchange and wanted us to buy a another unit. We refused. Instead, when we want to stay in a Penthouse unit, we bank/borrow points to do it. We know what we're giving up but, it was a considerably cheaper option the buying a new unit with a price tag north of $40,000. You should have seen the look on the sales managers face when I laid out my options of bank/borrow rather than buy an additional unit. 

The cost is I can't do this every year but, I can do it often enough to satisfy our vacation needs. In this situation it was the only reasonable option and works for us. For some Marriott owners banking/borrowing will work as well.

Take the Ocean Pointe owner who years ago purchased an OS unit when they really wanted an OF unit. Things have changed but, the prices went up or, Marriott didn't want to do a reasonable equity trade to allow them to move up. 

Now comes the points plan and a new opportunity opens up. Now they can join the points plan bank/borrow and move up to the OF view. Or, they can buy enough additional points to reserve the OF view at Ocean Pointe or, maybe they wanted to trade up to Oceana Palms but it was to expensive. Now they can convert, buy enough points to move up to reserve an Oceana Palms OF unit and NEVER have to pay full price to get what they want. 

Flexiblity is a fine thing and points plans often offer flexablity. There are prices to be paid and terms to be understood. It would be a good thing for everyone to slow down, examine where they're at and examine their vacation needs before jumping on the band wagon. At this point we're all still sifting though this thing. That includes Perry. There are no experts and there won't be until we all have a chance to see how this thing runs.


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## bw3 (Jul 7, 2010)

I don't believe $9.20 is a good price for points.  Maintenance fees at $.40 per point may be more fair than the prior system because you pay less for lower demand time but I don't like that either.  And the Marriott reps will tell you that the point cost will never be lower.  So I was not a big fan of the system when I first read the details.  I told the Marriott sales rep that we had plenty of points and I would not be buying any more.

However, the system works well when trading "down" for lack of a better term.  Suppose I want to trade a Grande Ocean Gold for 3,325 points.  I could trade "down" to a Monarch summer week (2,675).  Or I could trade 3 for 2 at Heritage (1,950) if I prefer golf in May or October.  Or I could trade 3 for 1 (almost) to play golf in November (1,175).  Under the II weeks trade, I would only get one week for each week surrendered.  If my vacationing needs change, I can easily triple my weeks for the same MF.  The skimming bothers me but it is not too bad on Grande Ocean gold so I can live with it.

I can see the value in the flexibility.


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## LAX Mom (Jul 7, 2010)

sdtugger said:


> I asked the same question and was told that I would get 0 points for a SW bronze week.  However, I was told that I could still ENROLL a SW bronze week into the points system and trade it using a corporate II account under the one MVCI annual fee.  This is a HUGE distinction.  My membership rep. double checked with a supervisor so I believe that it is true.  The other supporting fact is that the SW bronze week is available to enroll as an "internal" enrollment on my MVCI page.



Interesting, because I called yesterday and after being put on hold several times to check with a supervisor, the rep informed me that they will not enroll my Summit Watch bronze. It was the 3rd time I've been told that! I wish Marriott would train their employees so they could give accurate information about this new points program!


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## pwrshift (Jul 7, 2010)

Don't you mean the Pied Piper ... follow me, follow me.... Pretty grimm 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pied_Piper_of_Hamelin

Brian




dougp26364 said:


> You're sounding more and more like a salesman all the time.


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## pwrshift (Jul 7, 2010)

I think he wanted to show everyone just how complicated it really is to use points, especially when most of us feel cheated by Marriott on the valuations of our ownership units.

This points booking process will make calling Marriott at 9 am 13 and 12 months ahead for your reservations seem like grade school.  

Talk about stress of booking.  The points booking as illustrated will be considerably worse IMO.

Brian



BocaBum99 said:


> ...This is so complicated that it's not worth even attempting.
> 
> ...The convoluted approach you suggest is typical Perry and is something I absolutely reject for the average timesharing person.


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## GregT (Jul 7, 2010)

pwrshift said:


> I think he wanted to show everyone just how complicated it really is to use points, especially when most of us feel cheated by Marriott on the valuations of our ownership units.
> 
> This points booking process will make calling Marriott at 9 am 13 and 12 months ahead for your reservations seem like grade school.
> 
> ...




Sorry all, I really wasn't trying to be cute/clever/confusing -- I'm trying to find ways to maximize the points system opportunity.  Yes what I laid out was very complicated, but I stated that in the post.

I welcome other simpler alternatives but I don't yet see them.   I started a whole different thread on ways to stretch points, but it didn't go anywhere.

So......using points as laid out by Marriott is very very easy, but it's expensive because we are paid wholesale in points for our weeks redemption but we are paying retail when using those points.  

I'm just really trying to find alternative ways to maximize points to help all of us here.  

Best to all,

Greg


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## RedDogSD (Jul 7, 2010)

I can't believe we are even debating the prospect of banking 2 years at a Marriott property and paying cash to rent some points just to get a week to 10 days at a Marriott Hawaii property.

No Thanks.  I prefer the method that Dani and I have talked about extensively on other threads.  I will take my 2 bedroom Lock off, lock it, deposit it, pay the silly fees and get 4-6 weeks (depending upon how many AC's I get) of vacation from Interval from it.  That is 28-42 nights of vacation from my one week of owership.  

If, for some reason that I do not believe, Marriott inventory dries up in Interval....oh well.  There are plenty of nice timeshares just about everywhere.  I love Westin's, Hilton's, Wyhdham's, Hyatts, 4 Seasons, etc.  Also, Marriott inventory is not going to dry up, but that is for another discussion that I have already had ad nauseum.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 7, 2010)

The value of this program is not in week-for-a-week exchanges; but rather, the value comes from what will likely happen in the future.  

This is the best it will likely ever get for resale owners who purchased prior to June 20, 2010.  Before I understood the program, I thought it would be in Marriott's interest to remove the restrictions placed upon resale owners being able to join the system.  Now, I think it does not matter to them.  I suspect they will be content with just leaving the big R on the foreheads (as it were) of resale owners.  Points exchangers can still get the weeks of resale owners that are exchanged via II.  So, there is little extra value in having them trade their weeks for points.

I'm also not particularly displeased that only about 20% of existing owners will join (from posts I have seen).  I believe it will be an advantage to enrolled members who choose to exchange if less people join.  It will be less competition for the Trust inventory.

I personally don't see these pro-points threads adding much value to the topic.  They just give people more chances to flame the program and express their anger.  It would be better in my opinion to just answer peoples' legitimate questions as best as one can.  

The Destination Points program is almost certainly here to stay.


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## Bear1980 (Jul 7, 2010)

I have two Maui deeds, one for each year, and I don't think I'm really interested in converting since I really don't exchange much, and use my weeks.

I think for me, sticking with the legacy system is very simple, and I know what I am getting with a week here, and a week there.  Points are complicated, and since I hold Maui as a home resort, I just don't think I'm gaining anything.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 7, 2010)

LAX Mom said:


> Interesting, because I called yesterday and after being put on hold several times to check with a supervisor, the rep informed me that they will not enroll my Summit Watch bronze. It was the 3rd time I've been told that! I wish Marriott would train their employees so they could give accurate information about this new points program!



Have you gone through the motion of attempting to enroll online? If the online system will allow you to enroll then you should be able to enroll. If Marriott is trying to elimate Bronze week owners from the system, then that should tell you something about Marriott.

It's sort of funny to think there were those who thought Marriott would populate the new system with low value weeks and make it less attractive for high value weeks to join. Now we have people with Bronze weeks being told by Marriott employee's they don't want you. Shame on Marriott.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 7, 2010)

bw3 said:


> I don't believe $9.20 is a good price for points.  Maintenance fees at $.40 per point may be more fair than the prior system because you pay less for lower demand time but I don't like that either.  And the Marriott reps will tell you that the point cost will never be lower.  So I was not a big fan of the system when I first read the details.  I told the Marriott sales rep that we had plenty of points and I would not be buying any more.
> 
> However, the system works well when trading "down" for lack of a better term.  Suppose I want to trade a Grande Ocean Gold for 3,325 points.  I could trade "down" to a Monarch summer week (2,675).  Or I could trade 3 for 2 at Heritage (1,950) if I prefer golf in May or October.  Or I could trade 3 for 1 (almost) to play golf in November (1,175).  Under the II weeks trade, I would only get one week for each week surrendered.  If my vacationing needs change, I can easily triple my weeks for the same MF.  The skimming bothers me but it is not too bad on Grande Ocean gold so I can live with it.
> 
> I can see the value in the flexibility.



$9.20/point is a horrible price IMHO. The weeks I took a look at, it's an unprecedented increase in pricing. This coming on the heals of Marriott offering 20% discounts just to move weeks.

If this doesn't tell you something about the wisdom of buying additional points I don't know what does. People weren't buying weeks at a discount just before the change. Some were even advising against it. Now the advice of some is that $9.20 is a great buy.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 7, 2010)

pwrshift said:


> I think he wanted to show everyone just how complicated it really is to use points, especially when most of us feel cheated by Marriott on the valuations of our ownership units.
> 
> This points booking process will make calling Marriott at 9 am 13 and 12 months ahead for your reservations seem like grade school.
> 
> ...



The system isn't all that difficult so much as it's complex. There are area's that can be an advantage but, overall, on the surface it's not such a hot deal. There's a reason why Marriott's gues of 20% enrollment was 20% and not 80%. The vast majority of current owners won't benefit under the new points based system. Even Marriott acknowledge's that with their estimations.

Think about it. Marriott itself estimates only 20% will join yet, Perry's selling this thing like it's the greatest program on Earth. That alone should make one step back from the table and think just a little.

I see two very specialized groups that stand to benefit. 

1. Mult. week owners who spend a lot of money on ala carte pricing and exchanges.

2. Owners who want to move up in unit size view but never wanted to buy another unit.

Mult. week owners benefit from the $199 covers all fee's. Owners who bought a low season parking lot view but can now afford the full ocean front view but don't want a second week can buy just enough points to reserve the unit they want.

A third group, those that have very high value non-lockoff units may benefit because they can efficiently use points when they want to exchange out. IMHO that's probably a very small percentage of owners. 

An even smaller fourth group would be those that own several low value weeks but would exchange them all (they can be combined in points) to get one higher value week. In Perry's case he can combine up to three years of ownership with his Gold Summit Watch week to trade for a premium week somewhere. While Perry might think this is great most owners of Gold weeks aren't going to be thrilled about giving up three years for one year when they were trading up into some of those units just a couple of weeks ago. Flexchange can trump saving/borrowing points very easily as far as value is concerned unless you're not flexible enough to take advantage of that situation.  

There's always the resale buyer who thinks that being able to exchange for Marriot Rewards points is worth plunking down another $1,500. Why not? They paid far less than developer pricing. IMO MR points have been devalued so much that they're not worth exchanging for based on current MF's at most of the resort. Perhaps resorts like Manor Club or Willow Ridge where the cost of MF to MR Rewards points is still decent but, not for the typical owner. 


Then we have those that bought a timeshare but have never used it. The impulse buyers. Even though the new program might allow them to actually get some use out of their timeshare, as soon as Marriott askes them for more money they'll probably shut down. Most of that group feels they've been lied to already and won't be looking to spend more money. After all, they didn't think it through when they made the impulse purchase, I doubt they'll think about it again when Marriott comes around with it's hand out and a new offer.

From what I've looked at, most single week owners stand to lose more than they gain with this program. It might be worth it to lock in the flexibility now but, that's a pretty high price to pay for potential future usage. Marriott skims points in most cases (not all but the majority) making using points costly. All but the very high value week owners will get less exchanging points than exchanging straight weeks. If you have a single non-lockoff week then you savings to exchange is $109 but the cost is $595 plus $199/year. There is NO economic sense to make that move.

Owners who always use their week see no benefit at all. They don't get enough points to reserve a week in their own season most of the time. There is very few instances where joining the system, converting to points and reserving in your home resort makes sense. Trading down in season maybe or, trading into an undesirable week (September weeks are less than what Marriott gives me in my case) might work. The vast majority of points trades for legacy owners are very expensive and not worth paying a joiner fee plus membership fee.


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## DanCali (Jul 7, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> The value of this program is not in week-for-a-week exchanges; but rather, the value comes from what will likely happen in the future.



You said the same thing yesterday I believe.

Can you elaborate on what you think MAY happen in the future.

If it took them 4-5 years to come up with what they just unveiled, I'm not really holding my breath for Phase 2... Either way, the way I understand things the window to enroll is not shutting down on Dec 31, just the window on the 800 bonus points. Why join something you are not happy with with the hope that they will make it better?


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## BocaBoy (Jul 7, 2010)

$10 per point is very close to what Marriott was selling their Hawaii resorts for before the change.  $10 per point is less than they were selling Sabal Palms.


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## DanCali (Jul 7, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> $10 per point is very close to what Marriott was selling their Hawaii resorts for before the change.  $10 per point is less than they were selling Sabal Palms.



And how did those prices work out for them in the past 2-3 years when they were selling weeks?


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## hotcoffee (Jul 7, 2010)

DanCali said:


> You said the same thing yesterday I believe.
> 
> Can you elaborate on what you think MAY happen in the future.



Sure.  That opinion is based upon several exchanges with my rep.  He has noted on more than one occasion that Marriott plans to purchase some facilities (for lack of a better word) in locations that big resorts are impractical to build.  Once purchased, these facilities would be brought up to Marriott standards.  One such place is cities.  He specifically mentioned New York, but also mentioned Paris, London, Rome and some of the other European cities.  We also talked about places where Marriott seems to not have much presence like islands of the Pacific and Caribbean.  He also mentioned Australia.

I agree that he is certainly not speaking for Marriott corporate.  But, these types of places make sense.  It seems logical that Marriott will need to create some facilities that are both cheaper to build and cost less points than the existing big resorts.  Otherwise, the new points purchasers will have no place to go with their limited number of points.  They do have the Explorer program that they are now advertising, but I look for more in the way of condos or single family vacation villas to pop up down the road.  They are cheaper to build and operate.  There will be less amenities, but I suspect that many vacationers don't use all of the amenities of the big resorts anyway.



DanCali said:


> If it took them 4-5 years to come up with what they just unveiled, I'm not really holding my breath for Phase 2... Either way, the way I understand things the window to enroll is not shutting down on Dec 31, just the window on the 800 bonus points. Why join something you are not happy with with the hope that they will make it better?



I believe I have read that December 31st also closes out the window of opportunity of current resale owners to join.  (If you have heard different, feel free to set the record straight.)  Most of my comments have been directed at resale owners because they stand the most to gain from the new program.  A retail owner will be able to join anytime they want - probably at a higher cost;  but, they will still be able to get in.  Access to the MRP program and any new programs down the road is what is to be gained.  I do not think that exchanging in itself will be a big gain (unless they buy more points and/or II inventory begins to dry up over time).  However, I suspect Marriott is serious about closing the door on resale owners getting in.  There seems to be a negativity within Marriott toward resale owners that is not diminishing any time soon.  So, to summarize, resale owners gain MRP, some trading advantage if they have the points, access to the Explorer program now, and access to new programs and facilities down the road.


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## JimIg23 (Jul 7, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Almost... it's 4700 for July and August weeks but 5675 points for week 26...  But what's $56,750 + $2300 in MFs if you get to spend 4th of July every year at NCV? (incidentally - RedWeek July 4 rentals are less than $2300, and no need to spend $57K upfront). Still, apparently $10/point is a bargain...
> .



As an NCV owner, in the beginning I was upset with this.  But after thinking about it more, I am happy.  

I like going EOY to NCV in the summer (It was a complete fluke I had to deposit my summer NCV this year...)  With the cost of points so high, I am hoping most point owners do NOT want to spend the amount of points to go there in the summer.  Therefore, I am not competing with points and week owners for the same weeks.  Now, before anyone says "Separate Inventory" it is per season, not per week, so there could be a larger number of points owners in a specific part of the season (say summer) as oppose to another (say fall), than week owners, all still adding up to the correct inventory pools...

As far as buy in, I have to say I also signed up yesterday.  I am a resaler.  In a year, after I am sure my II account access will be the same and I use my deposits, it will be the same amount of money I spend now, maybe a bit less as I lock off MHZ and trade for Marriotts.  I was also told I was eligible for 110k MRP per year that I never could do before, but I don’t see myself using that.  

The biggest fact for me was the future of resales and future use.  There are a lot of unknowns about resale values in the future, how people will be able to sell their deeds, can the point options transfer, etc.  No one can give a definitive answer.  Also, no one knows what will happen with points or II trades 5 years from now.  However, as a resale owner, the $1495 was worth it to me to protect my investment.  Will 5 years from now we will find out it was a waste of money?  Maybe, but it was worth the risk for me now.


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## Bear1980 (Jul 7, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Owners who always use their week see no benefit at all. They don't get enough points to reserve a week in their own season most of the time. There is very few instances where joining the system, converting to points and reserving in your home resort makes sense.




This is where I'm at.  I finally got the deeds that I wanted, and I plan to use them.  The only time I plan to exchange is with my even year deed into possibly a different resort through II, but my baby is the odd ocean front in Maui.  I have no plans to exchange it.


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## DanCali (Jul 7, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Sure.  That opinion is based upon several exchanges with my rep.  He has noted on more than one occasion that Marriott plans to purchase some facilities (for lack of a better word) in locations that big resorts are impractical to build.  Once purchased, these facilities would be brought up to Marriott standards.  One such place is cities.  He specifically mentioned New York, but also mentioned Paris, London, Rome and some of the other European cities.  We also talked about places where Marriott seems to not have much presence like islands of the Pacific and Caribbean.  He also mentioned Australia.
> 
> I agree that he is certainly not speaking for Marriott corporate.  But, these types of places make sense.  It seems logical that Marriott will need to create some facilities that are both cheaper to build and cost less points than the existing big resorts.  Otherwise, the new points purchasers will have no place to go with their limited number of points.  They do have the Explorer program that they are now advertising, but I look for more in the way of condos or single family vacation villas to pop up down the road.  They are cheaper to build and operate.  There will be less amenities, but I suspect that many vacationers don't use all of the amenities of the big resorts anyway.



Even if there is any truth to this, this is a 10 year horizon thing. if this is where the value of the program will come from, they could have launched it in 10 years. And you used the works this will "likely happen in the future". Seems like a big leap of faith based on something one rep said which is not even in the marketing brochures.




hotcoffee said:


> I believe I have read that December 31st also closes out the window of opportunity of current resale owners to join.  (If you have heard different, feel free to set the record straight.)



This is just my interpretation based on what I read:

When you click on the enrollment link and go to the enrollment module there is a statement saying:



> For a limited time, you can enroll, into the Exchange Program, your first week purchased directly from Marriott Vacation Club International for only $595 or $695 for one and a half or more weeks.



Then, in the points FAQs:



> Will I receive anything for enrolling?
> 
> If you enroll in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program by December 31, 2010, you'll receive 800 Vacation Club PlusPoints! These PlusPoints are valid for 2 to 5 additional nights at any Marriott Vacation Club resort depending on the resort, room type and season. PlusPoints expire if not used, so be sure to ask your salesperson for details.



So my interpretation is there is no deadline to enroll and if you enroll by December 31 you get 800 points. I've heard about tuggers hearing about deadlines to enroll from Marriott salespeople ranging from "10 days" to December 31. I have not seen an actual deadline to enroll in writing other than a "limited time".

Personally I intend to rent and/or exchange my two 2011 weeks and in the unlikely event I do choose to enroll I wouldn't do it before 2012 usage. The 800 points are meaningless to me, especially since they are not transferable so I can't sell them to offset enrollment cost/

Why do you think there is a deadline to enroll?


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## AceValenta (Jul 7, 2010)

RBERR1 said:


> Curious what your two resale weeks were and how many points you had before purchasing.
> Did they tell you that the minimum you could buy was 250 or 1000?  They have given me mixed info on this and it makes it very confusing.



My Royal Palms was 1675 and Harbor Lakes was 1950. 

When you purchase more Destination Points, you have to purchase a minimum of 4 blocks of 250 Destination Points for a total of 1000. After that, you can purchase a minimum of 1 block of 250 points. 

If you convert and purchase more Destination points, they will waive up to the first $695 dollars of your conversion points. For Marriott direct owners, it would net out to $0 for conversions and resale your conversion nets out to $1300 plus the cost of Destination points.


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## DanCali (Jul 7, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> The biggest fact for me was the future of resales and future use.  There are a lot of unknowns about resale values in the future, how people will be able to sell their deeds, can the point options transfer, etc.  No one can give a definitive answer.  Also, no one knows what will happen with points or II trades 5 years from now.  However, as a resale owner, the $1495 was worth it to me to protect my investment.  Will 5 years from now we will find out it was a waste of money?  Maybe, but it was worth the risk for me now.



I am not sure how it "protects your investment" since I am pretty sure that when you sell your buyer will not be able to enroll in points, but it sounds like you gave it some thought and decided it fits your needs. 

Congratulations on your decision.


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## tlwmkw (Jul 7, 2010)

Where is this talk about single condos and villas coming from?  My VOA laughed when I mentioned this and said that it wouldn't happen- and that she's heard nothing about this.  I have to say that I can see that the economies of scale just wouldn't work.  How would they oversee a single condo, who would maintain it, who would clean and turn it over after people stay?  The costs would be enormous and they would have a very hard time keeping the standard up.  I wish it was true- esp if they had apartments with kitchens in the major European cities but I really doubt that this will happen.  Look at the Park Street Marriott- the costs are huge.

tlwmkw


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## hotcoffee (Jul 7, 2010)

DanCali said:


> . . . So my interpretation is there is no deadline to enroll and if you enroll by December 31 you get 800 points. I've heard about tuggers hearing about deadlines to enroll from Marriott salespeople ranging from "10 days" to December 31. I have not seen an actual deadline to enroll in writing other than a "limited time".
> 
> Personally I intend to rent and/or exchange my two 2011 weeks and in the unlikely event I do choose to enroll I wouldn't do it before 2012 usage. The 800 points are meaningless to me, especially since they are not transferable so I can't sell them to offset enrollment cost
> 
> Why do you think there is a deadline to enroll?



Well after you asked, I began to think about it.  Then, I remembered that it was a Marriott rep I talked to early on - the first time I had called them - shortly after the program went live.  This woman (not the person I am now dealing with) told me that resale owners would only be able to reserve at 10 months and must enroll before 31 December.  I had not asked that question of my current rep.  So, I called again tonight, and the person I talked to tonight said that there is no deadline.  So, I guess that was bad information.  It appears that there is no deadline for resale owners purchasing prior to June 20.  So, I take all the deadline comments back.

As far as the other advantages, I think they exist.  I don't think it will take 10 years for Marriott to bring new programs online.  They will likely, at least in the beginning, buy existing facitlities and bring them up to Marriott standards.  They cannot afford for it to take 10 years.  They are trying to sell points now, and they need more than just the Explorer program to make the experience worthwhile for people who are unlikely to purchase enough points to exchange into many of the existing resorts for the full seven days.


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## vacationmama (Jul 7, 2010)

Where do you find the points chart for the destination club? Just got our first letter from Marriott but no information. Where is the full information?


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## LAX Mom (Jul 7, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Have you gone through the motion of attempting to enroll online? If the online system will allow you to enroll then you should be able to enroll. If Marriott is trying to elimate Bronze week owners from the system, then that should tell you something about Marriott.
> 
> It's sort of funny to think there were those who thought Marriott would populate the new system with low value weeks and make it less attractive for high value weeks to join. Now we have people with Bronze weeks being told by Marriott employee's they don't want you. Shame on Marriott.



Doug, 

Thanks for the idea. I just tried the enrollment process online and it looks like it will let me enroll the bronze Summit Watch week for $595. It's eligible for 0 (zero) points (thanks Marriott, I do pay a MF of $1,100 per year, equal to the platinum MF at Summit Watch!).

But if I wanted to get into the points system then I could enroll my bronze Summit Watch and rent points from other members. Then I pay $169 per year in fees and save the lock-off fee ($75) and 2 exchange fees ($109 + $109). 

I think the reason 3 different reps told me I couldn't enroll the week was because of the 0 points being offered. It must have thrown them when they saw the week wasn't offered any points by Marriott. They figured if it's worth no points it couldn't be enrolled.  

I was almost positive I wouldn't enroll but this does give me an option to think about. This points program has lots of options to consider, but I still think I prefer exchanging with II.


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## pwrshift (Jul 7, 2010)

The only deadlines I've heard mentioned is that the 1000 point price goes to $10 mid July.  I told them not to hold their breath as I wouldn't buy them if they were $5 a point.    

Brian


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## timeos2 (Jul 7, 2010)

LAX Mom said:


> I think the reason 3 different reps told me I couldn't enroll the week was because of the 0 points being offered. It must have thrown them when they saw the week wasn't offered any points by Marriott. They figured if it's worth no points it couldn't be enrolled.



Wow - a timeshare company that sells a week for a good amount only to turn around and say it's worthless to them for any type of trade. First iI've ever heard of that.  I'd feel more than a bit taken if I had purchased that time.


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## m61376 (Jul 7, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> As an NCV owner, in the beginning I was upset with this.  But after thinking about it more, I am happy.
> 
> I like going EOY to NCV in the summer (It was a complete fluke I had to deposit my summer NCV this year...)  With the cost of points so high, I am hoping most point owners do NOT want to spend the amount of points to go there in the summer.  Therefore, I am not competing with points and week owners for the same weeks.  Now, before anyone says "Separate Inventory" it is per season, not per week, so there could be a larger number of points owners in a specific part of the season (say summer) as oppose to another (say fall), than week owners, all still adding up to the correct inventory pools...
> 
> ...


While I, too, have been debating about the second part of your comments, I disagree with the first part. First of all, Marriott has not stated that the inventory pools would be divided on a per season versus a per week basis. It would make sense for it to be pro-prated by percentage of ownership evenly per week/reservation period, or the potential competition for premium weeks would be fierce. If 20% of the units are in the point system, but they did not limit point reservations to 20% per week, there could be huge competition for those summer NCV weeks, from point owners and owners elsewhere converting to points for the year. I am sure NCV week owners would be up in arms if they only had access to 50% of the summer weeks because although the units in the point inventory comprised only 20% of the total for the season, 50% of the summer weeks were reserved by points owners. 

I know Marriott adjusted the point cost so as to partially even out demand, but my guess is that demand for those summer weeks will be high nevertheless. Platinum weeks are the most expensive, yet the first to sell out systemwide. People who need school vacation weeks will still reserve them, regardless of the point cost, so I think you will still see a huge demand.

The uncertainty about resales and future value/possible changes is always in the background, and I do agree that, while I'm not sure if it really matters, it might be worth the 2K more as an insurance policy than anything else. Or it might be a waste of 2K; I'm not sure.


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## DanCali (Jul 7, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Well after you asked, I began to think about it.  Then, I remembered that it was a Marriott rep I talked to early on - the first time I had called them - shortly after the program went live.  This woman (not the person I am now dealing with) told me that resale owners would only be able to reserve at 10 months and must enroll before 31 December.  I had not asked that question of my current rep.  So, I called again tonight, and the person I talked to tonight said that there is no deadline.  So, I guess that was bad information.  It appears that there is no deadline for resale owners purchasing prior to June 20.  So, I take all the deadline comments back.



I also gave them a call today after our exchange and talked to a VOA about the program for about 15 minutes. I also asked about a deadline both for retail and resale buyers and was told there is no deadline for either, only that if I enroll next year for 2012 usage I would not get the 800 points. I can live with that, especially if I get to observe for 12-15 months and make a more informed decision... 

I am also not buying into the "fees will go up" and "pre construction prices" talk... $2K is a lot of money to shell out in this economy, especially if one already has plans for 2011 usage. I will at least give Marriott credit for not pressuring us to enroll (not sure I can say the same about some individual sales reps, as reported here)


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## DanCali (Jul 7, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> Wow - a timeshare company that sells a week for a good amount only to turn around and say it's worthless to them for any type of trade. First iI've ever heard of that.  I'd feel more than a bit taken if I had purchased that time.



 John, you are staring to sound like me...!


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## DanCali (Jul 7, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> As far as the other advantages, I think they exist.  I don't think it will take 10 years for Marriott to bring new programs online.  They will likely, at least in the beginning, buy existing facitlities and bring them up to Marriott standards.  They cannot afford for it to take 10 years.  They are trying to sell points now, and they need more than just the Explorer program to make the experience worthwhile for people who are unlikely to purchase enough points to exchange into many of the existing resorts for the full seven days.



I just don't see what reason they would have to do this. In fact, one of the things I would be least concerned with if I joined the system is that new resorts will require more points. I just don't think there will be new resorts for a very long time.

Marroitt took all the excess inventory from various resorts and created 42 million of points. If they sell 4200 on each sale ($42K a sale), they need 10,000 customers to sell out. Until they are close to selling out those points, which may take many years at $10/point, why have any capital outlays? After the Marco Island episode, if you were in charge of MVCI would you spend tens of millions of dollars on acquiring (or building) new properies if you don't need the inevntory (points)? I wouldn't...


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## bw3 (Jul 7, 2010)

Certainly $9.20 is a huge increase over recent prices especially when you factor in the drop in all other vacation home prices.  Because of the bargain basement resales, I was able to get Hilton Head oceanside weeks at $2.40 per point and that is below the $3.50 I paid in 1992 when Grande Ocean broke ground.  Marriott seems to be oblivious to this point.

My point was that I can still make existing weeks work with the point system.  I have no intention of purchasing more.  I just don't know what the availability will be for beneficial trades.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Well after you asked, I began to think about it.  Then, I remembered that it was a Marriott rep I talked to early on - the first time I had called them - shortly after the program went live.  This woman (not the person I am now dealing with) told me that resale owners would only be able to reserve at 10 months and must enroll before 31 December.  I had not asked that question of my current rep.  So, I called again tonight, and the person I talked to tonight said that there is no deadline.  So, I guess that was bad information.  It appears that there is no deadline for resale owners purchasing prior to June 20.  So, I take all the deadline comments back.
> 
> As far as the other advantages, I think they exist.  I don't think it will take 10 years for Marriott to bring new programs online.  They will likely, at least in the beginning, buy existing facitlities and bring them up to Marriott standards.  They cannot afford for it to take 10 years.  They are trying to sell points now, and they need more than just the Explorer program to make the experience worthwhile for people who are unlikely to purchase enough points to exchange into many of the existing resorts for the full seven days.



There has been a good amount of bad information coming out of Marriott not-so-well trained employee's. The roll out for this plan has to have been one of the worst in timeshare history. No one with Marriott seems to have a grip on how the program really works.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

LAX Mom said:


> Doug,
> 
> Thanks for the idea. I just tried the enrollment process online and it looks like it will let me enroll the bronze Summit Watch week for $595. It's eligible for 0 (zero) points (thanks Marriott, I do pay a MF of $1,100 per year, equal to the platinum MF at Summit Watch!).
> 
> ...



For the most part, the only thing points will do for me is get me premier status. My plans, should I enroll, is to continue using my weeks as I always have but take advantage of the one membership fee rather than the ala carte pricing. In order to recover my initial start up fee's a little more quickly, I'll probably exchange both the master suite and lock-off suite at Grand Chateau in 2012 and 2013. Vegas is great but, I have a total of 4 home resort weeks in Vegas. Getting a great room in a location we want isn't a problem when we go to Vegas. Grand Chateau might be our favorite but, we're fine with either HGVC or DRI resorts.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> Wow - a timeshare company that sells a week for a good amount only to turn around and say it's worthless to them for any type of trade. First iI've ever heard of that.  I'd feel more than a bit taken if I had purchased that time.



You would have thought that they'd at least have given bronze owners 500 points, just to make them feel good and hope you could get a few of them to buy additional points. By giving them 0 points you manage to slap them in the face AND remove any incentive for them to buy more points, all at the same time. 

Marriott's made more bad moves on this program than I would have ever imagined. Before June 20th, I was convinced Marriott would present a program that would rival the best of the best in points based programs. After June 20th I'm convinced that this is the weakest points program for existing owners. 

For new owners it's nothing special but, it's not a bad program either. For new owners it compares favorably with most other programs I've seen. Why Marriott decided to stick it to 400,000 existing and mostly loyal owners is beyond me. I fear their estimations of 20% for existing owners to join is correct. Obviously, they new this was a program for new customers and they knew what they were doing to existing customers. Sort of makes on lose that warm fuzzy feeling we use to have about Marriott and how Marriott cared about it's owners.


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## m61376 (Jul 8, 2010)

Doug-
I agree with what you've said- but by making it less attractive to current owners- isn't it bad in a sense for point owners because of inventory? And, I'm guessing that the majority of enrollees (or at least a substantial potion of them) will still use their weeks as weeks- so Marriott may only see 10% of the weeks into their points inventory. At many resorts which are near sold out, and in which Platinum weeks are either sold out or virtually sold out, I think that's going to be a big issue.

For example- I look at Aruba, which frankly commands a much higher rental rate from Marriott than the point allocation would reflect. That also means it's a good buy for a new points owner. Except Plat. weeks are pretty close to being sold out (I believe certain views are sold out, but I am not sure). Anyway, because Plat. owners there weren't awarded enough points to book any week in the Plat. season and because of the very high trade power of a week there, it frankly makes sense to use the week as a week. That means that the point inventory will be restricted though.

So, I would have thought attracting more current owners into the program would have been a priority to get the inventory of the better weeks, because it is the higher seasons which have been the first to sell out.


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## tombo (Jul 8, 2010)

PerryM said:


> TUG is so negative about this new Marriott Program.
> 
> Why not let us have one thread devoted to folks who put their money where their mouth is and let us congratulate them.
> 
> There are a zillion other threads devoted to bashing the hell out of Marriott, and Starwood, and Westgate, and WorldMark...



That was tried with DC's. Several DC cheerleaders wanted all who posted negative posts banned from that site, remember? Hot air william blasted myself and others for posting negative comments on the Destination Club thread warning all about the pitfalls and bad situations regarding DC's. Every person who would have joined a destination club but decided not to from hearing negatives (rather than only the positives) saved themselves 10's to 100's of thousands of dollars since almost all DC's have since gone belly up. to have a thread only for posting Marriott positives would be a Marriott infomercial, much like your posts and website are IMO. 

Please don't expect to congratulate all who convert as enlightened buyers who made the right decision because many of us feel it is the worst decision for all. As people convert to points, all weeks owners will lose access to exchange inventory and give up more control to Marriott as they limit voting rights while extorting money from people WHO ALREADY BOUGHT MARRIOTT"S PRODUCT! We do not have a book to sell, a website to promote, we simply tell the facts as we see them to help warn all to not joibn, not give up their voting rights, to not allow Marriott to skim points on EVERY points deposit and exchange, and to not allow Marriott to make a lot of money threatening current owners that they will convert or lose their exchanging ability. 

We all know that the majority of prime inventory is currently owned by weeks owners. Marriott estimated 20% or less would convert, yet you inflate it to 25%. Hopefully the final tally will be less than 20% of all weeks owners converting leaving you to get exchanges on that 20% of Marriott total points inventory composed of weeks conversions, while the week owners keep 80% of the PRIME inventory in the weeks pool. Enjoy being on the outside of the majority of inventory looking in, and enjoy the pitiful number of points your personal week is assigned. No good trades with your points, unless you consider a studio a good trade for a 2 bed room week.

I will tell all that converting to points is not good for anyone but Marriott and possibly Perry's commercial ventures (people who don't convert don't need what you sell so your posts are not impartial).  Many of us felt DC's were a bad idea and warned all against them. Many here would NEVER recommend buying a week RETAIL for $100,000 in any timeshare ANYWHERE (especially not in overbuilt Vegas), and  the condotels and sailing clubs were touted by you as WONDERFUL while may here dissented. Your past predictions followed by total flip flops on your position when it goes bad have been well documented. In fact because you changed your own posts long after posting them to change your predictions to not be total failures,TUG had to change their policy to their current policy allowing you to only edit their personal posts for 2 days (one could call it the Perry rule). 

So now once again Perry has jumped on the Marriott band wagon way too early. Please anyone who is considering converting read LOTS of posts before converting, not just Perry's because his past track record of recommending Condotels, cruise clubs, destination Clubs, Planet hollywood timeshares, touting the fact that ROFR at marriott would assure that bottom feeders would never own a Marriott, and more predictions were all shown to be wrong over time. Listen at your own peril. If you want a sure bet, bet against whatever Perry tells you to do and you should be fine. Do not convert to points, it is good for no one but Marriott and possibly sales of Perry's Mariott infomercials.


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## AwayWeGo (Jul 8, 2010)

*That's Not Bashing -- That's Just Being Factual.*




tombo said:


> Your past predictions followed by total flip flops on your position when it goes bad have been well documented. In fact because you changed your own posts long after posting them to change your predictions to not be total failures,TUG had to change their policy to their current policy allowing you to only change posts for 2 days (one could call it the Perry rule).


You are correct, sir. 

To your outstanding summation, I would just add that PerryM is unique among TUG-BBS denizens in that he single-handedly induced the Grand Pro to institute our current 48-hour limit for editing & revising & erasing BBS entries.  

There are lots & lots of influential TUG-BBS participants, but PerryM is the only 1 can think of who all on his own brought about a lasting procedural change for the better. 

Is this a great web site or what ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## mtnpilot (Jul 8, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I know that many Bronze Summit Watch owners, who get ZERO (0) Points, join just for the savings in fees - so that's a case where the Point system doesn't even work for them but enrolling is worth while.



Wow, you sound just like a Marriott salesperson!   Hmmmm....


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

mtnpilot said:


> Wow, you sound just like a Marriott salesperson!   Hmmmm....



Well, he at least sounds like a salesman.


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## Bear1980 (Jul 8, 2010)

One of the things that drew me into Marriott was that they didn't have a point system.  It was cut and dry.  You had weeks.

Points may be the answer for people who want shorter stays, but isn't that possible now in the old system?  You can just break up your stay into two shorter trips?


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## Fredm (Jul 8, 2010)

Bear1980 said:


> One of the things that drew me into Marriott was that they didn't have a point system.  It was cut and dry.  You had weeks.
> 
> Points may be the answer for people who want shorter stays, but isn't that possible now in the old system?  You can just break up your stay into two shorter trips?



You can split a week at your home resort. Not in trade.
And, you cannot split-week a lockout.


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## tombo (Jul 8, 2010)

Bear1980 said:


> One of the things that drew me into Marriott was that they didn't have a point system.  It was cut and dry.  You had weeks.
> 
> Points may be the answer for people who want shorter stays, but isn't that possible now in the old system?  You can just break up your stay into two shorter trips?



Hey under points not only are shorter stays possible, in many cases they are your only option! After Marriott skims their points off of the top you won't have near enough points to stay a whole week at a resort valued the same as what you deposited.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 8, 2010)

tombo said:


> ... If you want a sure bet, bet against whatever Perry tells you to do and you should be fine. Do not convert to points, it is good for no one but Marriott and possibly sales of Perry's Mariott infomercials.



I don't understand why it's BAD to listen to Perry's over-the-top ravings about Marriott's new system, but it's GOOD to listen to your over-the-top rantings about it.  What?  Perry's blanket statements are false but yours are true?

There is good and bad in this new Points system, and the major consideration for how it will work for any individual owner is what s/he owns.   You can't say definitively that "it is good for no one" any more than Perry can say that it's a slam-dunk winner for everyone.

Geeeze, all these TUGgers who are crowning themselves Points Experts based on their own Week(s) ... I don't get it.  How about we let folks make their own decisions?  Anybody who is reading here anyway and sees Perry's DO-IT! and your DON'T-DO-IT!, already knows the questions to ask themselves.


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## Bear1980 (Jul 8, 2010)

tombo said:


> Hey under points not only are shorter stays possible, in many cases they are your only option! After Marriott skims their points off of the top you won't have near enough points to stay a whole week at a resort valued the same as what you deposited.



Can you help an old dummy like me understand the skimming process?

Are you saying that if I have 1 week at MOC, ocean front for 2 bedrooms, and it's valued at X amount of points...you're saying that X amount of points I have for that week won't be enough to stay for 2 bedroom ocean front at MOC?


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 8, 2010)

I am one of those Marriott Summit Watch Bronze owners who will be converting into the program even though I will get 0 points.

It's only $595.  I don't really care about the savings on fees, although that will probably justify the conversion costs by itself.  And, I will rent points from other owners to use points.

I am joining because of the options value.   By being a Points member, I have the greatest chance of finding where the inventory actually exists and capitalize on where Marriott puts it.

Do I realize this gives Marriott control of my votes.   I do.  They were going to get control whether or not I joined.  That is always what I assumed they would get.

Now, I don't have to wait for a resale and purchase a small package later along with the MF of it.


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## Bear1980 (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> I don't understand why it's BAD to listen to Perry's over-the-top ravings about Marriott's new system, but it's GOOD to listen to your over-the-top rantings about it.  What?  Perry's blanket statements are false but yours are true?
> 
> There is good and bad in this new Points system, and the major consideration for how it will work for any individual owner is what s/he owns.   You can't say definitively that "it is good for no one" any more than Perry can say that it's a slam-dunk winner for everyone.
> 
> Geeeze, all these TUGgers who are crowning themselves Points Experts based on their own Week(s) ... I don't get it.  How about we let folks make their own decisions?  Anybody who is reading here anyway and sees Perry's DO-IT! and your DON'T-DO-IT!, already knows the questions to ask themselves.



Nothing wrong with the conversation.  It's good to get it all out there so people know all the angles.

A dummy like me benefits from the "DO IT!" and "DON'T DO IT!" posts.  It helps form somewhat of a conclusion.

Currently, I'm leaning towards "DON'T DO IT!" since I know I have great deeds in Maui.  I stay at my home resort at least every other year, and always plan to go there.  I am looking to unload one of them though at some point (the even year 1 bedroom ocean view) because last year I upgraded my odd to ocean front which is the cream of the crop.  It's plenty for me, and easy for me to get to Maui EOY.  My plan was to rent that even or dangle it in an exchange with II to go to nice places anywhere.  I hope I can still do it.  However, long term, if I decide to sell that even year, I'd like to try to do it when there isn't so much damn inventory...maybe when the economy improves.  It's not killing me to have it now, it's paid for, and at the very least, I can rent it.  But now this points system throws a bit of unknown into that whole process.  Will Marriott be looking to gain inventory and want to buy the deed I'd be willing to sell?  Dunno...


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## SueDonJ (Jul 8, 2010)

Bear1980 said:


> Can you help an old dummy like me understand the skimming process?
> 
> Are you saying that if I have 1 week at MOC, ocean front for 2 bedrooms, and it's valued at X amount of points...you're saying that X amount of points I have for that week won't be enough to stay for 2 bedroom ocean front at MOC?



That's most likely true, Bear, because most Week(s) have not been allocated the number of Points it would take to exchange back into the home resorts in the same weeks/units.  BUT for home resort use you do not need to use the Points, you would use your Weeks to reserve the same way you always have.

This TUG post from Davidvel links to all of the new system's documents including the usage Points Charts, and if you sign in to your my-vacationclub.com account you can begin the Enrollment process (without completing it) to find out how many Points your Week(s) have been allocated.


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## timeos2 (Jul 8, 2010)

*Take your time and pick your path very carefully*



SueDonJ said:


> I don't understand why it's BAD to listen to Perry's over-the-top ravings about Marriott's new system, but it's GOOD to listen to your over-the-top rantings about it.  What?  Perry's blanket statements are false but yours are true?
> 
> There is good and bad in this new Points system, and the major consideration for how it will work for any individual owner is what s/he owns.   You can't say definitively that "it is good for no one" any more than Perry can say that it's a slam-dunk winner for everyone.
> 
> Geeeze, all these TUGgers who are crowning themselves Points Experts based on their own Week(s) ... I don't get it.  How about we let folks make their own decisions?  Anybody who is reading here anyway and sees Perry's DO-IT! and your DON'T-DO-IT!, already knows the questions to ask themselves.



Excellent advice Sue. Every owner or potential buyer into Marriott should look carefully at the many options and don't exclude simply renting as perhaps the best approach of all. In no case should anyone be rushing to decide what they want to do as there is no need and that alone may lead to a big mistake. 

Take your time. Evaluate the many options. Look at YOUR travel process and needs. Take the route that appears to match best to your style for the least amount of up front money and on going expense. Don't get caught up in the rush rush or fall for the old traps like "you must meet ROFR minimum" or there's a Marriott priority to trade in II - it's a new world and those things are gone. There are tremendous bargains to be had IF they fit your needs. But do not rush in. They will still be there - maybe even better - next week. Be aware of those that have any stake in things - and that can be sort of hidden like the plan to resell so they want people to think prices are far higher (using eBay asking rather than sale prices as one obvious example) than they actually are. Anything you decide to try to buy go LOW price. You may be amazed at what that will get you with just a very small amount of waiting & a few tries. Overpaying in this environment is a big mistake as it is a buyers market like no other that has ever existed.  

Take your time.


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## tombo (Jul 8, 2010)

Bear1980 said:


> Can you help an old dummy like me understand the skimming process?
> 
> Are you saying that if I have 1 week at MOC, ocean front for 2 bedrooms, and it's valued at X amount of points...you're saying that X amount of points I have for that week won't be enough to stay for 2 bedroom ocean front at MOC?



Call you marriott rep and ask them how many points you will get for your week each year if you convert. After finding out how many points they will give you for your week, ask them how many points it takes to reserve your week if owners at another resort feel like reserving what you deposited. You can determine how much they skim from you after finding out how many points they allocate to your week if you convert.

For example if your week is platinum ocean front and Marriott charges others 5800 points to reserve your week when you deposit it, Marriott in this example will only give you 5400 points each year (ignore the 800 one time points offer). So Marriott is keeping 400 points between what you receive for your week and what Marriott charges another owner to stay in your week. If you want to trade for another "like resort" which also is valued at 5800 points, you will not be able to trade like for like weeks since you only get 5400 points.

 If it is a lock-off marriott gets even more skimmed points. They give the owner 5400 points, then they charge points members 4200 points for the one side week and another points member is charged 2200 points for the studio. Marriott gets a total of 6400 points for a week they only gave the owner 5400 points for, keeping 1000 points they skimmed. 

Marriott claims no fees for lock-offs or exchanges, but when they skim points off of every deposit, they are charging hidden fees using points. Many owners do not get enough points to reserve any week in their season, and some don't even get enough points to stay at their own resort. the worst example I have heard of is Summitt Watch bronze owners who would get zero points to deposit their week. I bet you can't book a bronze week there for zero points.


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## Bear1980 (Jul 8, 2010)

tombo said:


> Call you marriott rep and ask them how many points you will get for your week each year if you convert. After finding out how many points they will give you for your week, ask them how many points it takes to reserve your week if owners at another resort feel like reserving what you deposited. You can determine how much they skim from you after finding out how many points they allocate to your week if you convert.
> 
> For example if your week is platinum ocean front and Marriott charges others 5800 points to reserve your week when you deposit it, Marriott in this example will only give you 5400 points each year (ignore the 800 one time points offer). So Marriott is keeping 400 points between what you receive for your week and what Marriott charges another owner to stay in your week. If you want to trade for another "like resort" which also is valued at 5800 points, you will not be able to trade like for like weeks since you only get 5400 points.
> 
> ...



Good explanation.  Thanks for clearing that up.

I just looked at what my weeks are valued at.

My MOC Ocean Front is valued at 6,450, and my MOC Ocean View is listed at 3,900.  Both deeds are EOY, so therefore annually I would earn 5,175 points per year.

What makes it wacky is if I look at the point chart.  Based on points for trading into my own home resort, by points for ocean front 6,450 is only enough to stay at my own home resort for very select dates.  Most of the time for better weeks, the amount of points required for my accommodations is 7,800.  This trading system is just wacky.


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## tombo (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> I don't understand why it's BAD to listen to Perry's over-the-top ravings about Marriott's new system, but it's GOOD to listen to your over-the-top rantings about it.  What?  Perry's blanket statements are false but yours are true?
> 
> There is good and bad in this new Points system, and the major consideration for how it will work for any individual owner is what s/he owns.   You can't say definitively that "it is good for no one" any more than Perry can say that it's a slam-dunk winner for everyone.
> 
> Geeeze, all these TUGgers who are crowning themselves Points Experts based on their own Week(s) ... I don't get it.  How about we let folks make their own decisions?  Anybody who is reading here anyway and sees Perry's DO-IT! and your DON'T-DO-IT!, already knows the questions to ask themselves.



Is it bad for everyone? I assume some will benefit although the per cent who benefit over the long haul will be minimal IMO. I think all will be forced to buy more points down the road or have their points become worthless as Marriott devalues and tweeks their program to increase point sales.

 Susan, you love marriott and defend them no matter what they do. You had your mind made up that it was going to be great before they even launched it because finally you would get enough points to trade for 3 bed rooms rather than having to trade for 2 bed rooms. You found out that you only got enough points to trade for 2 bed room units at some resorts and one bed rooms at others, yet you still love it. You had to finally admit that they skim points and that you can't trade your 3 bed room for a like rated resort using points, but you still love it. You agree there is loss of voting rights, but still love it. you can't find anywhere in writing where they assure you that the value of your week/season/resort can't be changed at any time for any reason, yet you still defend them. If any weeks owner calls Marriott sales and complains about the skim they can't and won't even try to defend their actions, they tell you that the program isn't for you because you caught us with our hands in the cookie jar, but still you love it. for the few occassions where someone might come out ahead converting, overall it will be bad for the far majority.

As for blanket statements of course there will always be exceptions. Heck Paris hilton has gotten rich(er) by partying all night and getting drunk. She now gets paid several $100,000 to show up at a party and stay for a while. I could say that partying all night and drinkin all the time is bad for all and be correct, but as in everything you can find an exception if you look hard enough.


If you look hard enough you can find things that are good for certain owners if they convert, but who wants to join a program that takes that much effort to find the good things?


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## DanCali (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> That's most likely true, Bear, because most Week(s) have not been allocated the number of Points it would take to exchange back into the home resorts in the same weeks/units.  BUT for home resort use you do not need to use the Points, you would use your Weeks to reserve the same way you always have.
> 
> This TUG post from Davidvel links to all of the new system's documents including the usage Points Charts, and if you sign in to your my-vacationclub.com account you can begin the Enrollment process (without completing it) to find out how many Points your Week(s) have been allocated.



Not only is it "most likely true"... that is an understatement. As far as we know, it is 100% true that EVERY owner at EVERY resort and EVERY season got less than the average points required to trade into their season. Therefore there will be many weeks in your season where you do not have enough points to trade into your own resort (in fact, at resorts with even demand year round like MGC for example, some owners don't have enough points to trade into any weeks at their home resort). This creates a situation where the aggregate points required to trade into your season is greater than the aggregate points allocated to owners in that season. That excess is referred to as "skim" and all owners who convert to points in a given year contribute some points towards it. Where it goes? We don't know, but I suspect Marriott will be happy to rent you your skimmed points back or rent those weeks for itself on marriott.com. The written docs are mysteriously silent on this issue.

As some point system advocates are quick to point out, Marriott was kind enough to preserve your deeded/legal right to reserve any week in your season at your home resort. This is true - you do not have to use points for that. Does that mean there is no skim? Of course it's still there... it's just affects your ability to do like for like exchanges using points.

Imagine an identical resort on a neighboring island, call it MOC2 with the same point requirements as your own. Now there will be many weeks at that resort where you don't have enough points to trade into a unit of similar size and view. 

While points allocations for MOC were relatively high (because the requirements to get in are even higher) this may not affect you for most resorts. In many cases, you may be able to use points and still have a few left over. That doesn't mean that the skim is not there.... Had they given you the average points required to trade into your season, you'd have more points left over when you traded using points. The difference between what you go and the average points required to trade into your season is the skim...

If I were you, I'd first calculate the average points required to trade into my season and compare to what I got (see this example). This will give you an idea of how much you are shortchanged each time you convert to points. Next look at some other resorts that are "expensive" (e.g. Waiohai OV requires 5875 points or more many weeks of the year - will your Maui OV get you there? Do you consider it like for like?) and see if you are happy with what your points get you. Then decide if points is for you.

It's important to realize that even if points suits your travel need and you can get your exchanges with points (maybe even some low demand weeks at your home resort) the skim is always there. 100% likely. If you happen to have a lot of timeshares and/or points you may not care that much but it's there...


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## tombo (Jul 8, 2010)

Bear1980 said:


> Good explanation.  Thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> I just looked at what my weeks are valued at.
> 
> ...



Not wacky, a skim making money for marriott. If you used cash it would be a brokers fee. If you can book a week at your home resort that marriott can rent to others for $7800, yet they only give you $6450 for it when you give it to Marriott to rent, they would make $1350 on the transaction. So now to reserve a week that rents for the same money as what you gave marriott, you owe the $6450 they gave you and another $1350 in cash out of pocket. You give them a week worth $7800, yet you only get $6450, so you can only afford to reserve a lesser resort/season/unit or pay more to stay in a week equivalent to what you already own and have payed your MF's on. 

However unlike money you get points that are only good with marriott. Now you have 6450 points in exchange for your 7800 point week you gave them. You can't reach into your pocket for more points, you have to BORROW more points from the future (not possible EOY I don't believe unless one is even and one odd), or you have to settle for a lesser wee/season/resort, or you have to BUY more marriott points. It is a way to make more money on what you already own. Now in weeks you can trade up, trade down, or trade like for like. if you convert to points and use points all you can do is trade down.

What a deal, for marriott that is.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 8, 2010)

tombo said:


> Is it bad for everyone? I assume some will benefit although the per cent who benefit over the long haul will be minimal IMO. I think all will be forced to buy more points down the road or have their points become worthless as Marriott devalues and tweeks their program to increase point sales.
> 
> Susan, you love marriott and defend them no matter what they do. You had your mind made up that it was going to be great before they even launched it because finally you would get enough points to trade for 3 bed rooms rather than having to trade for 2 bed rooms. You found out that you only got enough points to trade for 2 bed room units at like resorts, yet you still love it. You had to finally admit that they skim points and that you can't trade your 3 bed room for a like rated resort using points, but you still love it. You agree there is loss of voting rights, but still love it. you can't find anywhere in writing where they assure you that the value of your week/season/resort can't be changed at any time for any reason, yet you still defend them. If any weeks owner calls Marriott sales and complains about the skim they can't and won't even try to defend their actions, they tell you that the program isn't for you because you caught us with our hands in the cookie jar, but still you love it. for the few occassions where someone might come out ahead converting, overall it will be bad for the far majority.
> 
> ...



You say defending, I say taking a realistic look at what they can and cannot do and then determining if enrolling in Points fits my needs better than staying in the Weeks system would. 

I don't see any purpose to getting all up in arms over skimming or point devaluation or the vote power Marriott already holds or will gain in the future or resale devaluation - that stuff has always been beyond my control and it doesn't make any sense to let it raise my blood pressure or get in the way of evaluating whether this new system works for me better than the old.

Before it was rolled out I said that I'd be happy with an overlay exchange system with flexibility similar to DVC's that gives me more for my weeks than II does.  Well, that's what it turned out to be - why wouldn't I like it?  Whereas before in II my exchanges were consistent down-trades to 2BR for my 3BR, with Marriott's DC Program my 3BRs are getting me in the same season a 2BR at a similar South Carolina resort with Points left over.  Do you want me to demand that my HHI 3BR weeks should get me 3BR weeks at Hawaii?  Or any trade value guarantee with future resorts?  That's not what I could expect from II, why would I be entitled to it with Points?

I've already told you - my weeks give me good usage value and a Premier Plus designation in Points.  And I know that sounds terrible, like I'm boasting or something, but that's not my intent.  "It is what it is" and I'm fortunate that this has worked out to my advantage.  I completely understand that others are not as fortunate, but I'm not trying to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't do here.  I'm just trying to show that it IS possible to make this new thing work in certain situations, that saying "it is good for no one" is simply not correct.

Heck, maybe I am a Marriott cheerleader.  I'm very happy with my ownership, have consistently been able to use the Weeks system as my sales rep led me to believe I could, and am looking forward to using the Points system in ways they're telling me I can now.  As far as I'm concerned, based on my own experiences Marriott doesn't need any defending.  YMMV.


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## ccpinternational (Jul 8, 2010)

I will join the new program this month. For us resale owner, there are nothing to lose but$2000 and we gain the right to trade for MRP (I am not sure how valuable that is, seems to be a big deal for a lot of people here). 

Marriott: if you pay $2000, you are not my adopt son anymore.


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## DanCali (Jul 8, 2010)

ccpinternational said:


> I will join the new program this month. For us resale owner, there are nothing to lose but$2000 and we gain the right to trade for MRP (I am not sure how valuable that is, seems to be a big deal for a lot of people here).
> 
> Marriott: if you pay $2000, you are not my adopt son anymore.



The MRP option stopped being valuable for most people when points were devalues a few years ago. You can still extract some value out of those points if you travel to Europe and stay in hotels there since (i) hotels there are expensive and (ii) the U.S. dollar is weak (this too may change if the Euro collapses).

If I enroll, I can convert my Platinum Marriott for 110,000 MRP. That gets me 5 nights in a Category 5 hotel. but how often would I want to downgrade from a 2BR to a hotel studio? I won't do that very often... Also, people will ask themselves are the 5 hotel nights worth my $1000 in MFs? That's the wrong question to ask if you can do a lot better by renting out the week for $1800 or more and paying for the 5 hotel nights yourself (that doesn't require MRP).

YMMV - whatever you decide, make an informed decision.


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## RedDogSD (Jul 8, 2010)

ccpinternational said:


> For us resale owner, there are nothing to lose but$2000 .



I only paid $2000 for my Marriott Platinum week, so $2000 is nothing to balk at.   It would take twice as long to realize my ROI.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 8, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I just don't see what reason they would have to do this. In fact, one of the things I would be least concerned with if I joined the system is that new resorts will require more points. I just don't think there will be new resorts for a very long time.
> 
> Marroitt took all the excess inventory from various resorts and created 42 million of points. If they sell 4200 on each sale ($42K a sale), they need 10,000 customers to sell out. Until they are close to selling out those points, which may take many years at $10/point, why have any capital outlays? After the Marco Island episode, if you were in charge of MVCI would you spend tens of millions of dollars on acquiring (or building) new properies if you don't need the inevntory (points)? I wouldn't...



I think they will be forced to acquire more (and cheaper) property.  I cannot see new buyers in this economy purchasing the thousands of points it will take to be able to reserve a full week in the most desireable resorts.  They can reserve less than a full week, but to do that they will have to wait for the Priority 3 reservation period (10 months or less) to reserve.  By that time, they might not be able to get the days they want.  The best resorts in the inventory (as of February) were in Hawaii.  I guess there are enough weeks there to last a while, but I don't know how many people will want to go all the way to Hawaii for just a 3-day vacation.


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## cruisin (Jul 8, 2010)

tombo said:


> Is it bad for everyone? I assume some will benefit although the per cent who benefit over the long haul will be minimal IMO. I think all will be forced to buy more points down the road or have their points become worthless as Marriott devalues and tweeks their program to increase point sales.
> 
> Susan, you love marriott and defend them no matter what they do. You had your mind made up that it was going to be great before they even launched it because finally you would get enough points to trade for 3 bed rooms rather than having to trade for 2 bed rooms. You found out that you only got enough points to trade for 2 bed room units at some resorts and one bed rooms at others, yet you still love it. You had to finally admit that they skim points and that you can't trade your 3 bed room for a like rated resort using points, but you still love it. You agree there is loss of voting rights, but still love it. you can't find anywhere in writing where they assure you that the value of your week/season/resort can't be changed at any time for any reason, yet you still defend them. If any weeks owner calls Marriott sales and complains about the skim they can't and won't even try to defend their actions, they tell you that the program isn't for you because you caught us with our hands in the cookie jar, but still you love it. for the few occassions where someone might come out ahead converting, overall it will be bad for the far majority.
> 
> ...




The new system is clearly not good to owners in general, it hurt the value of owning Marriott. Marriott is now in the position of making what you have become worthless so that you will be compelled to join. Very few are super excited about the new program. I know some owners who are considering joining for this very reason. 

One thing I have not heard from the few Marriott friends that I do have is the desire to purchase points directly into the new system, they see no value in that at all. Marriott might be successful in getting new people to buy points, but it is a weird situation that their own family  sees little value in actually owning new points.


I bet new points owners will hate the value after trying to use the new system, Marriott better use ROFR, or you will see Wyndham Resale prices. Maybe this will be the finest example of whether ROFR works or not 

I Also think Boca has absolutely nailed the fact of a need for bonus time or open season, without it new owners will absolutely hate what they bought. (this by far  could be the best reason of all to Joinif and when it comes online) Seems like this would be the only true value they could put into the new program. It is the only reason I am considering an HGVC purchase, and it is compelling!

Points will also create a whole new demographic of people who can join Marriott at a lower buy in than before.

It will be interesting.


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## DanCali (Jul 8, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> I think they will be forced to acquire more (and cheaper) property.




I agree with everything you said below. My disconnect is that I don't see how that "forces" Marriott to do anything, let alone rush and buy new property, especially since you are saying they will do it just to increase vacation options. If they are not doing it to sell more points (because they still have points inventory in the trust) then where is their ROI coming from? If they won't see a quick return on their investment it won't happen. 

Marriott is done with new resorts for a long time - whether it's building them or buying them. Joining a points system because you don't like it but see the main benefit in this type of future, when you heard about it from just one sales rep is a bit hasty IMO. 

Marriott started points to milk existing owners for more cash... there is not a big future in new developments.



hotcoffee said:


> I cannot see new buyers in this economy purchasing the thousands of points it will take to be able to reserve a full week in the most desireable resorts.  They can reserve less than a full week, but to do that they will have to wait for the Priority 3 reservation period (10 months or less) to reserve.  By that time, they might not be able to get the days they want.  The best resorts in the inventory (as of February) were in Hawaii.  I guess there are enough weeks there to last a while, but I don't know how many people will want to go all the way to Hawaii for just a 3-day vacation.


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## tombo (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> You say defending, I say taking a realistic look at what they can and cannot do
> 
> Before it was rolled out I said that I'd be happy with an overlay exchange system with flexibility similar to DVC's that gives me more for my weeks than II does.  Well, that's what it turned out to be - why wouldn't I like it?  Whereas before in II my exchanges were consistent down-trades to 2BR for my 3BR, with Marriott's DC Program my 3BRs are getting me in the same season a 2BR at a similar South Carolina resort with Points left over.  Do you want me to demand that my HHI 3BR weeks should get me 3BR weeks at Hawaii?  Or any trade value guarantee with future resorts?  That's not what I could expect from II, why would I be entitled to it with Points?
> 
> ...



Ok, so you like the points program better because all II trades were down trades and now you can trade your 3 bed room for a 2 bed room in South Carolina with points left over. Wow, you get a few points left over that won't reserve a long weekend, but you give up any chance to reserve many resorts/seasons/weeks that you could exchange for in the past. That is not an upgrade.

Now please be honest with us, marriott, and yourself. I guarantee you that you have traded your 3 bed room unit in the past for resorts that you will  NOT get enough points to reserve anymore if you convert and use points. Everyone here who has traded through II for years has exchanged for weeks in the past that are now out of reach using points. If you used to be able to trade your 3bed room unit for 2 bed room Maui and Kaui weeks that you no longer have enough points to trade for, then you have lost exchanging power with your 3 bed rooms over what you had with II and Marriott's original program. Please explain the joy of losing access to numerous resorts thanks to Marriott skimming points on your deposits and inequitably assigning points between different resorts.

Please go back through exchanges you made in the past using II and see how many of those resorts you can no longer trade for using the points they give you when you deposit your 3 bed unit into the points program. Look at how many resorts you could see and could have exchanged for in weeks using II that are now out of reach looking at the points Marriott requires to book those weeks. Don't look at all of your points and what they will get you, just the points you get from your 3 bed room or 2 bed room units. If you look at all of your points and using whatever amount is needed to get your trade, then you are giving them your whole 3 bed unit and part of another week to get prime weeks/seasons/resorts that you used to be able to get using only your 3 bed unit, or one of your 2 bed units. You had access to more weeks/ resorts/ seasons using your 3 bed room in the past than you will with your annual points allocation, and losing access to weeks you were able to trade for in the past can't be construed as an enhancement.

Since your your 3 bed week will not get enough points to trade for resorts you used to be able to trade for, or any resort which is valued at the same number of points as your 3 bed unit takes to rent, now Marriott is really showing you what it means to have to down trade, and they are showing you that courtesy of their points program.


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## Bear1980 (Jul 8, 2010)

tombo said:


> Ok, so you like the points program better because all II trades were down trades and now you can trade your 3 bed room for a 2 bed room in South Carolina with points left over. Wow, you get a few points left over that won't reserve a long weekend, but you give up any chance to reserve many resorts/seasons/weeks that you could exchange for in the past. That is not an upgrade.
> 
> Now please be honest with us, marriott, and yourself. I guarantee you that you have traded your 3 bed room unit in the past for resorts that you will  NOT get enough points to reserve anymore. Everyone here who has traded through II for years has exchanged for weeks in the past that are now out of reach using points. If you used to be able to trade your 3bed room unit for 2 bed room Maui and Kaui weeks that you no longer have enough points to trade for, then you have lost exchanging power with your 3 bed rooms over what you had with II and Marriott's original program. Please explain the joy of losing access to numerous resorts thanks to Marriott skimming points on your deposits and inequitably assigning points between different resorts.
> 
> ...



Good post!


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## DanCali (Jul 8, 2010)

tombo said:


> Ok, so you like the points program better because all II trades were down trades and now you can trade your 3 bed room for a 2 bed room in South Carolina with points left over. Wow, you get a few points left over that won't reserve a long weekend, but you give up any chance to reserve many resorts/seasons/weeks that you could exchange for in the past. That is not an upgrade.






Bear1980 said:


> Good post!



I agree - just he forgot to mention that those 3Br to 2Br "downtrades" in II come with the option of either (i) an extra week for $149 in a unit as big as the one deposited with restrictions on location, or (i) an extra week for $149 in a unit a 1BR or studio (compensation for size downgrade) with no restrictions on location...When you factor this in, II leaves the points system in the dust in terms of pure value. 

The fact that of the tuggers who are joining so many are joining just for fee savings but hardly intend to actually use points speaks volumes of what you can do with points...


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## RedDogSD (Jul 8, 2010)

That is exactly the point.  Go through your II trades and see how you did.  

This is what I sent to my Marriott Sales Rep in an email conversation.

_I will consider joining.....but I am one of those people who REALLY knows how to work the Interval system and take advantage.  I get Accomodation Certificates, and know how to use their 2 for 1 promotions.

Just for an example, here is what I did with 1 2 bedroom unit using Interval:

Lockoff side traded into Marriott Desert Springs I (2 Bedroom) for the first week in February.  This is prime Platinum season and costs 4225 points.
1 Bedroom Side traded into Marriott Newport Coast Villas during April, 2011.  This is semi-prime season and costs 2900 points

Using Interval 2 for 1 system, my Studio deposit got another week at Marriott Desert Springs in a Studio for this November.  This Studio week costs 1500 points.
Using Interval 2 for 1 system, my 1 bedroom deposit got another week in a 1 bedroom at Westin Kierland Villas in Scottsdale in December.  This is the best resort in Scottsdale.  I cannot give it a points total, but the closest Marriott is Marriott Canyon Villas in Phoenix and this week in a 1 bedroom would have cost 1450 points for the week.

Interval also gave me an A/C which got me a week in Vegas at the Marriott Grand Chateau in May, 2011 in a 1 bedroom.  This week would have cost me 2225 points.

So, from one 2 bedroom unit, I got 12,300 points worth of value.  At $9.20/point, I would have to buy 9075 more points ($83,490), and add $3630/year in Maintenance Fees.  I just don't see how I can justify that.  I am sure that there is the possibility that the Interval inventory will dry up, but I don't believe that.  Even if 50% of owners take their weeks into the points program, there will still be plenty of weeks for us weeks owners in the Interval pool.  If not, there are lots of other nice resorts in the Interval system.

If you disagree, let me know.  However, if you are honest with me, and not just trying to get a sales prospect, you would probably admit that I am right on this one. _


* Of course, she did not agree.  She tried the usual sales lines *


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> I don't understand why it's BAD to listen to Perry's over-the-top ravings about Marriott's new system, but it's GOOD to listen to your over-the-top rantings about it.  What?  Perry's blanket statements are false but yours are true?
> 
> There is good and bad in this new Points system, and the major consideration for how it will work for any individual owner is what s/he owns.   You can't say definitively that "it is good for no one" any more than Perry can say that it's a slam-dunk winner for everyone.
> 
> Geeeze, all these TUGgers who are crowning themselves Points Experts based on their own Week(s) ... I don't get it.  How about we let folks make their own decisions?  Anybody who is reading here anyway and sees Perry's DO-IT! and your DON'T-DO-IT!, already knows the questions to ask themselves.



Counter balance.

There are NO experts. Not myself, not Perry, no one. It's a shame that after such a short time, one TUGGER thinks enough of his analytical skills so as to begin doing webinars and selling E-books. Especially when the last great proclamation ended with the rules for editing being permanently changed on these forums because he errased all the evidence. And don't mention that debacle because that will only mean he's won the debate! 

Don't post negatives about the new program? Why not? Everyone needs to know that there are good and bad things about this program. At this moment, we're all figuring this thing out one small step at a time. By everyone posting their opinion we can take those small steps a little more quickly.

What would happen if only the positives were posted? You know, only the happy cheery picture was presented? All you have to do is go to a sales presentation to get an idea of what that would be like.

No, we need counter balance in this debate.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> I am one of those Marriott Summit Watch Bronze owners who will be converting into the program even though I will get 0 points.
> 
> It's only $595.  I don't really care about the savings on fees, although that will probably justify the conversion costs by itself.  And, I will rent points from other owners to use points.
> 
> ...



As to control of the votes I'm not 100% convinced this is the major issue we make it out to be. Essentially, it states you don't vote against the interests of the DC. If you belong to the DC, would you really want to vote against it? Another aspect everyone overlooks is the ability to non-renew your membership in the DC. If Marriott goes to far legacy weeks owners (remember, it took 25 year to reach 400,000 owners of individual weeks), legacy owners can always quit and vote however the desire.

I'm not thrilled with the term but, I don't think the way it's worded indicates you give you vote to Marriott. It's only that if you're a member of the club, you don't bite the hand the feeds you by voting against it.


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## DanCali (Jul 8, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> We need counter balance in this debate.



This is especially true for Perry's comments.

His touting of $10/point as "pre-construction pricing" in widely disseminated eBooks could really hurt some less-experienced people financially...


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## GeNioS (Jul 8, 2010)

tombo said:


> Please go back through exchanges you made in the past using II and see how many of those resorts you can no longer trade for using the points they give you when you deposit your 3 bed unit into the points program. Look at how many resorts you could see and could have exchanged for in weeks using II that are now out of reach looking at the points Marriott requires to book those weeks. Don't look at all of your points and what they will get you, just the points you get from your 3 bed room or 2 bed room units. If you look at all of your points and using whatever amount is needed to get your trade, then you are giving them your whole 3 bed unit and part of another week to get prime weeks/seasons/resorts that you used to be able to get using only your 3 bed unit, or one of your 2 bed units. You had access to more weeks/ resorts/ seasons using your 3 bed room in the past than you will with your annual points allocation, and losing access to weeks you were able to trade for in the past can't be construed as an enhancement.



Especially when one of the biggest pitches they made when I was buying the weeks was exactly this access you're mentioning.  That not only could I have access to better weeks than I own now if I was flexible, but I might be able to get to those weeks with only the lock-off side of the unit.

In the points system, not only could I not get a whole week with the lockoff, my week falls into one of these (i'm guessing the vast majority), that wouldn't reserve itself 1:1.  My gold week at Summit Watch can reserve a week in July.  It would get me 2150 points according to the education website.  According to the points chart, it would take 3900 points to reserve a week Jul1 - Jul 28, 2011.  Skimming?  That's not the word I would use when my week valued at 2150 point week costs another owner 3900 points.  I don't know what the word is, but it is sure isn't "good."

(Sorry...been lurking for a while.....now back to your regularly scheduled thread.)


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

tombo said:


> Is it bad for everyone? I assume some will benefit although the per cent who benefit over the long haul will be minimal IMO. I think all will be forced to buy more points down the road or have their points become worthless as Marriott devalues and tweeks their program to increase point sales.
> 
> Susan, you love marriott and defend them no matter what they do. You had your mind made up that it was going to be great before they even launched it because finally you would get enough points to trade for 3 bed rooms rather than having to trade for 2 bed rooms. You found out that you only got enough points to trade for 2 bed room units at some resorts and one bed rooms at others, yet you still love it. You had to finally admit that they skim points and that you can't trade your 3 bed room for a like rated resort using points, but you still love it. You agree there is loss of voting rights, but still love it. you can't find anywhere in writing where they assure you that the value of your week/season/resort can't be changed at any time for any reason, yet you still defend them. If any weeks owner calls Marriott sales and complains about the skim they can't and won't even try to defend their actions, they tell you that the program isn't for you because you caught us with our hands in the cookie jar, but still you love it. for the few occassions where someone might come out ahead converting, overall it will be bad for the far majority.
> 
> ...



It's not that hard to find the good things. At issue is that the good things are different for everyone. 

1. Weeks owners wanting ala carte pricing

2. Owners who want to move up in unit size/view but not buy an entire additional week.

3. Owners who MUST have specific weeks but have been locked out because everyone wants to reserve those weeks to rent or trade vs use.

4. Owners who's lifesyle has changed and can use smaller units but own larger units to fit the entire family, which has grown up and have lives of their own.

5. Owners who have changed jobs, lost most of their vacation time but can take weekend trips.

6. Owners who have discovered cruising or escorted tours as a vacation option but, can't take them without sacraficing a timeshare week. 

I can go on and I'm doing this without really thinking about it. It's not that hard to find advantages to the new program if you think about it. Whether or not any of the good things are good things to each member is another matter. Marriott has estimated that 80% won't find enough advantage in the program to want to pay the joiner fee.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Not only is it "most likely true"... that is an understatement. As far as we know, it is 100% true that EVERY owner at EVERY resort and EVERY season got less than the average points required to trade into their season. Therefore there will be many weeks in your season where you do not have enough points to trade into your own resort (in fact, at resorts with even demand year round like MGC for example, some owners don't have enough points to trade into any weeks at their home resort). This creates a situation where the aggregate points required to trade into your season is greater than the aggregate points allocated to owners in that season. That excess is referred to as "skim" and all owners who convert to points in a given year contribute some points towards it. Where it goes? We don't know, but I suspect Marriott will be happy to rent you your skimmed points back or rent those weeks for itself on marriott.com. The written docs are mysteriously silent on this issue.
> 
> As some point system advocates are quick to point out, Marriott was kind enough to preserve your deeded/legal right to reserve any week in your season at your home resort. This is true - you do not have to use points for that. Does that mean there is no skim? Of course it's still there... it's just affects your ability to do like for like exchanges using points.
> 
> ...



While I won't debate the fact there is a skim (and there IS a skim), you have to realize that to some people, it doesn't matter. If it's easier for them to secure their desired week they'll pay the price. 

I could change the oil in my car for example but I don't. I prefer to pay someone to do that for me. Some people choose to have a maid service come in and clean their house. Some install sprinkler systems to automatically water their yards.

Personally, I resent the skim and look at it as an underhanded hidden expense of the DC. Others will look at it as an expense their willing to pay for the flexiblity. Who am I to argue with how one is willing to spend their money or vacation ownership?


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## timeos2 (Jul 8, 2010)

*It can be for other things as well*



dougp26364 said:


> As to control of the votes I'm not 100% convinced this is the major issue we make it out to be. Essentially, it states you don't vote against the interests of the DC. If you belong to the DC, would you really want to vote against it? Another aspect everyone overlooks is the ability to non-renew your membership in the DC. If Marriott goes to far legacy weeks owners (remember, it took 25 year to reach 400,000 owners of individual weeks), legacy owners can always quit and vote however the desire.
> 
> I'm not thrilled with the term but, I don't think the way it's worded indicates you give you vote to Marriott. It's only that if you're a member of the club, you don't bite the hand the feeds you by voting against it.



It's not voting against the DC club that would be the problem. It is the "need", simply not true, to have Marriott as the MANAGEMENT that being unable to vote could end up working against you. Many resorts/systems are successfully run where the management is NOT the developer/system operator and, in my experience, the outcome is far more positive for the owners than the places where one organization holds all those roles. To me taking the vote away is just another way they are trying to ensure that they hold the powerful and lucrative management contracts.  More padding of the Marriott corporate pockets from the owners.


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## tombo (Jul 8, 2010)

RedDogSD said:


> That is exactly the point.  Go through your II trades and see how you did.
> 
> This is what I sent to my Marriott Sales Rep in an email conversation.
> 
> ...



So if you convert you would get 3225 points annually which wouldn't be enough points to get you the 2 bed room platinum season at desert springs, and would instead only get you the one bed room in April at Newport Coast Villas with 325 points left over. The 325 remaining points wouldn't be enough to book the studio week at desert springs in November or the Westin in Scottsdale in November (not available with marriott points), and not enough to book your one bed room at the Grand Chateau in May. 


Using II and weeks you received 4 weeks for your 2 bed room deposit. If you enhance your options and upgrade to points 3 of the weeks you received using II will be out of reach using your annual points allocation, and you will only get to exchange your 2 bed room unit for a one bed room week with 325 points left over. What a great upgrade points would be for you.

What a fantastic real life example of what could be done using II that will not be possible using points. The worst part of your example is that no matter how savvy you are, you won't be able to deposit your 2 bed room unit for points and be able to reserve even the 2 bed unit you received through II, the best you can do using points is the one bed unit out of your 4 weeks you got in II exchanges for the same 2 bed week. 

If others go over their past exchanges and look at the Marriott point charts, they will be surprised at how many thing will now be out of reach if they convert and use points.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

tombo said:


> Not wacky, a skim making money for marriott. If you used cash it would be a brokers fee. If you can book a week at your home resort that marriott can rent to others for $7800, yet they only give you $6450 for it when you give it to Marriott to rent, they would make $1350 on the transaction. So now to reserve a week that rents for the same money as what you gave marriott, you owe the $6450 they gave you and another $1350 in cash out of pocket. You give them a week worth $7800, yet you only get $6450, so you can only afford to reserve a lesser resort/season/unit or pay more to stay in a week equivalent to what you already own and have payed your MF's on.
> 
> However unlike money you get points that are only good with marriott. Now you have 6450 points in exchange for your 7800 point week you gave them. You can't reach into your pocket for more points, you have to BORROW more points from the future (not possible EOY I don't believe unless one is even and one odd), or you have to settle for a lesser wee/season/resort, or you have to BUY more marriott points. It is a way to make more money on what you already own. Now in weeks you can trade up, trade down, or trade like for like. if you convert to points and use points all you can do is trade down.
> 
> What a deal, for marriott that is.



This is why I don't like the way Marriott has done it. If you're not paying attention, it's a hidden cost. Up to 80% will see this hidden cost and decide not to join. Of the 20 % Marriott estimates will join, some won't realize it until they convert to points and then want to book a week at their home resort (probably a very small percentage). Others will never realize it because they always trade out. Some like myself will see it but are enticed by the one fee to cover all the old ala carte fee's.

Personally, I believe I'd rather Marriott would have been upfront and open about the fee's. I can't think of another points based program where you're not given the same amount of points as they require to book the unit/season you originally purchased. In timeshare world, I believe this is a unique feature. 

For Marriott, this feature ONLY exists for legacy owners. New buyers into the program will simply buy enough points for the vacations they want at the time they want to travel. I'm wondering how much breakage there will be when people buy high numbers of points for premium weeks, then decide one year to vacation during a lower point week. Say someone buys 13,000 points to stay in a large unit on NYE, can't get that week because, well, it's at a legacy resort and no one turned loose of that week, then spends 6,000 on another week but can't get a second week off from their employer.

Sure they can save the points but, and I hate to paraphrase Perry but here goes, Marriott sold the dream of staying NYE at a sold our resort and that week just doesn't exist. So the next year they have those 13,000 points PLUS 7,000 saved points and now they can't get that promise that Marriott sold them because, it's a sold out week and legacy owners didn't turn loose of any of those weeks. Now they're booking a week for maybe 8,000 poits or, burning points for a cruise vacation or, burning points for a guided tour vacation. 

So, how much breakage do we think Marriott is calculating into the grand scheme of things. People who buy enough points for a Presidents week ski week at a Colorado resort, only to find those weeks don't exist in the points program and now they own to many points.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> It's not voting against the DC club that would be the problem. It is the "need", simply not true, to have Marriott as the MANAGEMENT that being unable to vote could end up working against you. Many resorts/systems are successfully run where the management is NOT the developer/system operator and, in my experience, the outcome is far more positive for the owners than the places where one organization holds all those roles. To me taking the vote away is just another way they are trying to ensure that they hold the powerful and lucrative management contracts.  More padding of the Marriott corporate pockets from the owners.



My point would be that, if you don't want Marriott managing your resort, you probably don't want to belong to Marriott's DC either. At that point legacy weeks owners have the right to non-renew their membership and vote Marriott out of their management roll at the resort. 

It does not lock owners into a position where Marriott HAS to be the management at your resort. It does lock owners who want to belong to the DC into agreeing to continue to allow Marriott to manage you're resort so long as you want to belong to the DC.

I agree that this is a way for Marriott to attempt to hold onto the management contracts at resorts. They're trying to make themselves the best option. However I don't see that one is locked into voting strictly for Marriott. You can always leave the DC and vote against Marriott. Marriott just isn't going to allow for two masters.


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## RedDogSD (Jul 8, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> This is why I don't like the way Marriott has done it. If you're not paying attention, it's a hidden cost. Up to 80% will see this hidden cost and decide not to join. Of the 20 % Marriott estimates will join, some won't realize it until they convert to points and then want to book a week at their home resort (probably a very small percentage). Others will never realize it because they always trade out. Some like myself will see it but are enticed by the one fee to cover all the old ala carte fee's.
> 
> Personally, I believe I'd rather Marriott would have been upfront and open about the fee's. I can't think of another points based program where you're not given the same amount of points as they require to book the unit/season you originally purchased. In timeshare world, I believe this is a unique feature.
> 
> ...



I agree with your sentiment, but I don't see that happening.  Very few resorts sold so much fixed week inventory that Marriott cannot reserve any week they want using whatever weeks are turned in for MR points or Vacation Club Points.  Those who buy enough points for Presidents Week at a Ski resort will probably have a crack at it.  I don't think that they will all be able to get it, but the fact that it is so many points should curtail demand enough to hopefully match up the right number of requesters with the number of weeks that they can manage.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 8, 2010)

tombo said:


> Ok, so you like the points program better because all II trades were down trades and now you can trade your 3 bed room for a 2 bed room in South Carolina with points left over. Wow, you get a few points left over that won't reserve a long weekend, but you give up any chance to reserve many resorts/seasons/weeks that you could exchange for in the past. That is not an upgrade.



We've been through this already.  With the 4625 Points for my SW 3BR Gold OV or 5740 Points for my SW 3BR Plat OS, I can get a 2BR at the comparable OceanWatch resort at Myrtle Beach during Plat season for between 3450 and 4675 Points depending on view.  Considering that exchangers in II generally are lower on the Priority List for OF units, my Plat 3BR gets me a 2BR in the same season at a comparable resort with more than enough Points left over for at least a long weekend somewhere.  If you're not able to see how that's an upgrade from the straight 3BR to a 2BR that I get from II, then I'm at a loss to try to explain it.



tombo said:


> Now please be honest with us, marriott, and yourself. I guarantee you that you have traded your 3 bed room unit in the past for resorts that you will  NOT get enough points to reserve anymore if you convert and use points. Everyone here who has traded through II for years has exchanged for weeks in the past that are now out of reach using points. If you used to be able to trade your 3bed room unit for 2 bed room Maui and Kaui weeks that you no longer have enough points to trade for, then you have lost exchanging power with your 3 bed rooms over what you had with II and Marriott's original program. Please explain the joy of losing access to numerous resorts thanks to Marriott skimming points on your deposits and inequitably assigning points between different resorts.
> 
> Please go back through exchanges you made in the past using II and see how many of those resorts you can no longer trade for using the points they give you when you deposit your 3 bed unit into the points program. Look at how many resorts you could see and could have exchanged for in weeks using II that are now out of reach looking at the points Marriott requires to book those weeks. Don't look at all of your points and what they will get you, just the points you get from your 3 bed room or 2 bed room units. If you look at all of your points and using whatever amount is needed to get your trade, then you are giving them your whole 3 bed unit and part of another week to get prime weeks/seasons/resorts that you used to be able to get using only your 3 bed unit, or one of your 2 bed units. You had access to more weeks/ resorts/ seasons using your 3 bed room in the past than you will with your annual points allocation, and losing access to weeks you were able to trade for in the past can't be construed as an enhancement.
> 
> Since your your 3 bed week will not get enough points to trade for resorts you used to be able to trade for, or any resort which is valued at the same number of points as your 3 bed unit takes to rent, now Marriott is really showing you what it means to have to down trade, and they are showing you that courtesy of their points program.



Here's my recent exchange history:

May, 2008 - 4 2BR units at Waiohai (2 for each of 2 weeks), using three Weeks from two years and an AC:
- MAW IslandView is 4225 and OceanView is 5025; we had two of each which would be a total of 18500 Points. We used two SW 3BR Plat OS (5740 points each) and one SW 3BR Gold OV (4625 points) plus an AC.  That's a total of 16105 which is 2395 short of what we'd need.  BUT considering that for the past two years we've not been offered AC's for these weeks from II, if we were going to try do the same exchange to MAW with Weeks, we'd have to use four of our weeks instead of three.  With Points using the four weeks necessary would again leave us with a surplus.

Nov, 2010 - 2BR Gulfside at Crystal Shores, which would be 3450 Points.  We used the SW 3BR Gold OV which is 4625 Points.  Again, a smaller unit during an off-season that works out to a better value using Points instead of Weeks.

Just this past May we used our SW 3BR Plat OS (5740) to exchange for a SW 3BR Gold OS (4675) which we matched up for friends to our week in the SW Gold OV.  There again, a similar exchange with Points would leave us with a surplus AND we had to pay TWO exchange fees to II because originally they matched us to a 2BR and I called for the 3BR when I saw it on the TUG Sightings board a few weeks before the trip.

Now, Tombo, please stop talking to me like I'm an idiot and haven't considered everything that's relevant to whether this system is good for me or not.  I have.  You know I have because in the discussions we've had you've pushed me to look at everything that isn't working for you.

Geez-oh-Pete, you're getting on my last nerve.  If you're not going to be satisfied until I've thrown in the towel and am willing to cut off my nose to spite my face, which is what you said you were willing to do, then tell me now so I can stop trying to have a rational discussion with you about all this.  I've done my homework, this works for me, I'm not thrilled that it doesn't work for everyone, but it's not up to me to make it better for everyone either.


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## Mamianka (Jul 8, 2010)

We have also enrolled.  We do not plan to exchange our properties for Vacation Club points for at least 2 years - other plans - but like losing the fees.  Husband has already worked out several scenarios where we could do VERY well with all this.  Altho trading a week for a week is the slickest way to go (other than occupying your home resort), we tend to get antsy - five days in fine for us, and sometimes even four.  So - we like this new way.  Since we live in NY, splitting our 2 BR Chateau the *old* way left us with two oddities - not worth the airfare for short stays, we only want 1 BR at a time, etc.  So we are cool with the new way - and have plenty of time to think before we pull the trigger.  This coming year, took all Rewards points (health issues - playing it safe) - and now are seeing places that have great hotels, but not timeshares.  Best for us - and have the flex to do it.

Anybody who exchanges their home resort for Club points, and then decide to use those points to go BACK to their home resort and pay MORE points, is just a poor planner - and deserves to pay a *here's your sign* fee, as the Redneck Comedy guy says.  The idea is to work the system for your own benefit - and leave nothing on the table.  Like General Patton used to say "Patriotism is *not* dying for your country - it's making sure some *other* SOB dies for HIS country."  If you love Marriott - work the system, and spread the word.  If you HATE Marriott - work the system, and tell everybody you know.http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/images/smilies/whoopie.gif


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

RedDogSD said:


> I agree with your sentiment, but I don't see that happening.  Very few resorts sold so much fixed week inventory that Marriott cannot reserve any week they want using whatever weeks are turned in for MR points or Vacation Club Points.  Those who buy enough points for Presidents Week at a Ski resort will probably have a crack at it.  I don't think that they will all be able to get it, but the fact that it is so many points should curtail demand enough to hopefully match up the right number of requesters with the number of weeks that they can manage.



To be honest, I don't have a clue whether Marriott sold any fixed weeks at the CO resorts. It was more of a hypothetical scenario than anything else. The CO resorts are sold out. That would mean any high point total weeks that might have been sold as fixed weeks would be sold out. Those owners typically are smart enough to either use or rent those weeks. Marriott can now resell those weeks in the points system but, they really aren't available, which could give Marriott some breakage.

I had thought about using Grand Chateau, which does have a fixed week NYE but, it's a new enough resort with two towers yet to be built. It wouldn't have made a good real life example. 

Perry pointed out some potential bad things about the program in the speculation thread. This is one of the potential bad things for new buyers (it won't really affect legacy week owners who don't buy more points) that I do see as true. It's a great thing for Marriott sale reps and not such a great thing for unsuspecting prospects who come in off the street for the free gift.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> We've been through this already.  With the 4625 Points for my SW 3BR Gold OV or 5740 Points for my SW 3BR Plat OS, I can get a 2BR at the comparable OceanWatch resort at Myrtle Beach during Plat season for between 3450 and 4675 Points depending on view.  Considering that exchangers in II generally are lower on the Priority List for OF units, my Plat 3BR gets me a 2BR in the same season at a comparable resort with more than enough Points left over for at least a long weekend somewhere.  If you're not able to see how that's an upgrade from the straight 3BR to a 2BR that I get from II, then I'm at a loss to try to explain it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looking at your past history of usage, then comparing it to what it would have been like in the new program is one of the best ways to determine if the new program will work for you and, how much time it will take to recover the costs of joining. This is what I do and what I encourage everyone else to do as well.

My other point, and I've made this before, is that there is no hurry to jump into the new program at this time. Unless of course you have planning issues and not joining causes you to lose benefits. I'll probably join but, I want to see this puppy taken for a test drive first. I'm afraid there's going to be a few more potholes in the road I'm not seeing yet. Maybe even a few more benefits I haven't considered.


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## DanCali (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> We've been through this already.  With the 4625 Points for my SW 3BR Gold OV or 5740 Points for my SW 3BR Plat OS, I can get a 2BR at the comparable OceanWatch resort at Myrtle Beach during Plat season for between 3450 and 4675 Points depending on view.  Considering that exchangers in II generally are lower on the Priority List for OF units, my Plat 3BR gets me a 2BR in the same season at a comparable resort with more than enough Points left over for at least a long weekend somewhere.  If you're not able to see how that's an upgrade from the straight 3BR to a 2BR that I get from II, then I'm at a loss to try to explain it.



As I said above those 3Br to 2Br "downtrades" in II come with the option of either (i) an extra week for $149 in a unit as big as the one deposited with restrictions on location, or (i) an extra week for $149 in a unit a 1BR or studio (compensation for size downgrade) with no restrictions on location...

When you factor these 2 for 1 deals from II for an extra $149, the points system is NOT an upgrade. Just look at what RedDogSD did with these XYZ Promos.




SueDonJ said:


> May, 2008 - 4 2BR units at Waiohai (2 for each of 2 weeks), using three Weeks from two years and an AC:
> - MAW IslandView is 4225 and OceanView is 5025; we had two of each which would be a total of 18500 Points. We used two SW 3BR Plat OS (5740 points each) and one SW 3BR Gold OV (4625 points) plus an AC. That's a total of 16105 which is 2395 short of what we'd need. BUT considering that for the past two years we've not been offered AC's for these weeks from II, if we were going to try do the same exchange to MAW with Weeks, we'd have to use four of our weeks instead of three. With Points using the four weeks necessary would again leave us with a surplus.



This would have entitled you to 3 additional weeks in units up to 3BR in size in places like Orlando, Palm Springs, Vegas etc. Or 3 additional weeks in units up to 1BR with less geographic restrictions. All you had to do was call and ask and pay $149 per week.



SueDonJ said:


> Nov, 2010 - 2BR Gulfside at Crystal Shores, which would be 3450 Points. We used the SW 3BR Gold OV which is 4625 Points. Again, a smaller unit during an off-season that works out to a better value using Points instead of Weeks.



This would have entitled you to 1 additional week in units up to 3BR in size in places like Orlando, Palm Springs, Vegas etc or a 1BR at Crystal Shores to compensate for size. All you had to do was call and ask and pay $149.



SueDonJ said:


> I've done my homework



I realize II is not as transparent as points but it sounds like you haven't made the most of it.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 8, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Looking at your past history of usage, then comparing it to what it would have been like in the new program is one of the best ways to determine if the new program will work for you and, how much time it will take to recover the costs of joining. This is what I do and what I encourage everyone else to do as well.
> 
> My other point, and I've made this before, is that there is no hurry to jump into the new program at this time. Unless of course you have planning issues and not joining causes you to lose benefits. I'll probably join but, I want to see this puppy taken for a test drive first. I'm afraid there's going to be a few more potholes in the road I'm not seeing yet. Maybe even a few more benefits I haven't considered.



I also don't see anyone having a NEED to jump into this until they've considered all that's important to them.  But neither do I see a reason to wait if somebody is certain that the decision to enroll is right for them.  The reason you gave, planning issues, is the reason I did enroll sooner rather than later.  We're sitting on a week that I want to try to exchange for next year and the 7/26 Opening Day timing for using Points might get me the chance to book what I want immediately (it's into one of the 11 resorts that had inventory conveyed to the Trust) instead of waiting for II to come through with something less than I can get with Points.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 8, 2010)

DanCali said:


> As I said above those 3Br to 2Br "downtrades" in II come with the option of either (i) an extra week for $149 in a unit as big as the one deposited with restrictions on location, or (i) an extra week for $149 in a unit a 1BR or studio (compensation for size downgrade) with no restrictions on location...
> 
> When you factor these 2 for 1 deals from II for an extra $149, the points system is NOT an upgrade. Just look at what RedDogSD did with these XYZ Promos.
> 
> ...



These 2-for-1 deals haven't always been available in II, or if they have I missed them somehow in my constant TUG reading.  The first I'd heard of them was when mention was made just a couple months ago of the SuperSecret II Agent who's apparently the only II rep able to do it.  And like any other "extra" option, they're as apt to be discontinued as continued.  I'd rather risk the known factors than the unknowns.


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## tombo (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Here's my recent exchange history:
> 
> May, 2008 - 4 2BR units at Waiohai (2 for each of 2 weeks), using three Weeks from two years and an AC:
> - MAW IslandView is 4225 and OceanView is 5025; we had two of each which would be a total of 18500 Points. We used two SW 3BR Plat OS (5740 points each) and one SW 3BR Gold OV (4625 points) plus an AC.  That's a total of 16105 which is 2395 short of what we'd need.  .
> ...



You made my point for me using your own experience. Using an AC which you won't get with points you will be 2395 points short of what you need using points. No AC's with points, no downtrades as Dancali stated "3Br to 2Br "downtrades" in II come with the option of either (i) an extra week for $149 in a unit as big as the one deposited with restrictions on location, or (i) an extra week for $149 in a unit a 1BR or studio (compensation for size downgrade) with no restrictions on location...", and so it is a losing situation. In II you got 4 weeks for depositing 3 weeks. Using points it would take 4 weeks deposited to get the same 4 exchange weeks which is loss of exchange power pure and simple.

In addition you don't mention any resorts that require more than the 4625 points you get annually for your gold 3 bed room that you have gotten in the past using your 3 bed gold week for exchange with II. MAW ocean view is 5025 points. You could exchange for it using your gold 3 bed room in II, but you won't have enough points to exchange for it after converting since you will only get 4625 a year. I feel sure that you have received exchanges in the past to resorts/weeks/views exchanging hrough II that are now unattainable because they cost more than 4625 points. If you could get them before, but you can no longer exchange your 3 bed for those weeks, you have lost trading power pure and simple. 

The prime weeks/views/resorts are what everyone joined Marriott to get, not off season, poor locations. The fact that some weeks are cheaper is not a selling point. I never sat through a sales presentation where the rep pointed out all the less popular resorts and seasons I could exchange for if I purchased, only the top resorts and seasons. Those top resorts/seasons were possible for me to get in the past, but using points they are now impossible because they cost more points than I would get. 

Not trying to make you cut off your nose, just pointing out the obvious. If what you owned would get you week 6 at xyz resort in the past, but exchanging that same week for points will not get you enough points to exchange for the week you could exchange for before, the new system is not an upgrade over what you got with II.


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## DanCali (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> These 2-for-1 deals haven't always been available in II, or if they have I missed them somehow in my constant TUG reading.  The first I'd heard of them was when mention was made just a couple months ago of the SuperSecret II Agent who's apparently the only II rep able to do it.  And like any other "extra" option, they're as apt to be discontinued as continued.  I'd rather risk the known factors than the unknowns.



II will always have surplus and will look for ways to dump it... I was looking at this:



> Nov, 2010 - 2BR Gulfside at Crystal Shores, which would be 3450 Points. We used the SW 3BR Gold OV which is 4625 Points. Again, a smaller unit during an off-season that works out to a better value using Points instead of Weeks.



Nov 2010 hasn't passed yet so you should be able to get your $149 XYZ for this. Either a 1BR as compensation for size pretty much anywhere there is inventory (Crystal Shores?) or up to a 3BR in the overbuilt areas.

You don't need the secret II agent. Give the Marriott desk a call and tell them you wanted to get an XYZ for this exchange. If the agent doesn't know there are two types of XYZs you should call and speak to another or ask for a supervisor...

Let us know if you had any success...


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## tombo (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> These 2-for-1 deals haven't always been available in II, or if they have I missed them somehow in my constant TUG reading.  The first I'd heard of them was when mention was made just a couple months ago of the SuperSecret II Agent who's apparently the only II rep able to do it.  And like any other "extra" option, they're as apt to be discontinued as continued.  I'd rather risk the known factors than the unknowns.



II can discontinue AC's, 2 for ones, etc. Marriott can also change point values at any time for any reason. Both are unknowns. Next year your 3 bed gold  week might only be worth 3500 points if Marriott decides that is all it is worth based on demand or for any other reason.


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## pipet (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> I'd be happy with an overlay exchange system with flexibility similar to DVC's that gives me more for my weeks than II does.  Well, that's what it turned out to be - why wouldn't I like it?  Whereas before in II my exchanges were consistent down-trades to 2BR for my 3BR, with Marriott's DC Program my 3BRs are getting me in the same season a 2BR at a similar South Carolina resort with Points left over.  Do you want me to demand that my HHI 3BR weeks should get me 3BR weeks at Hawaii? .



I can understand feeling the pain of a downgrade when you have a 3BR and only get a 2BR in exchange, but the XYZ downgrade bonus mitigates that!  When I first looked at the points, _I was excited to see that I would get compensated for "downgrade" trades, but then I realized my compensation is less than if I use II to the fullest_.  Yeah, on II, people who paid less for their TS (assuming developer prices for "value") can get the same thing I do: an XYZ, often an AC, and a trade into HI, the only difference being that I am guaranteed my HI resort.  As a "stars in the eyes* HI buyer, I didn't think about that, but 1) not doing research before I bought is my own fault and 2) I love my home resort so there is always that comfort.  Buying a 3BR when there aren't many 3 BRs to trade in II is kinda like buying HI; you're not going to get as much value as "lesser" weeks.  

The points system can give you a cozy feeling of getting more for your week than other people get for smaller units or less expensive properties.   If people trade for points, there no longer is the ability to uptrade, but I also get less, too.  The new "fairness" of that aspect of the program seems to me to be a bit like biting off your nose to spite your face... 

I also agree that someone with a less expensive week perhaps shouldn't _expect_ to get HI with their week, but a lot of people did buy developer and were sold on that ability.  Since you brought up HI, _as a HI owner, I do expect my 2BR to get me into a 2BR_! But if I want to trade to Ko Olina, certainly a resort of similar pricing, my week will only get me the least popular weeks (so much for Hawaii trading power when it comes to points).  I have an OV, but I can NEVER afford an OV in Maui (and I'm just talking MOC, not the newer, more expensive MM1). _If I had a 2BR island view, I could NEVER afford a 2BR of any type on Maui at all_.  Please tell me the positive in that?  As someone who did purchase directly from Marriott,_ I was sold on being able to easily do Marriott island-to-island exchanges_ with my Hawaii trading power.  Mind you, I realize that I can still trade on II or privately, but _if I choose to convert to points in any year, I will get less than I was sold_.  I understand the points system will incur increased expenses, but if you don't make multiple, short stays, the loss in points is IMO a significant subsidy to the program & Marriott.

While I appreciate people trying to see the positive in things, I want to face reality, too.  _I don't care if people love or hate Marriott; I want to know the bottom line to my wallet._  The actual _points transactions_ don't help most people's wallets.  If you can travel only on off-season, etc, you might find some value to the points system, but I would bet that only a small percentage get more with points than with II or just using getaways/renting.  

That's not to say the program doesn't have some value.  Many if not most multiple week owners who trade can save on fees (and never convert to points), and even single week owners who trade frequently (4/5 years) can save on fees.  A few resorts/seasons have such a low MF/point ratio that their cost/point may mitigate any "skim," and they might be able to rent their points at a tidy profit.  If you truly do need flexibility in traveling 3 days here, 2 days there, this program answers that need.  I'd just have preferred Marriott ensured I truly could exchange like-for-like and recoup the increased expenses with the program elsewhere (like maybe a tidy fee for short stays, etc).

As for the Premier Plus designation, it may be worth it for some.  If you had priority in week exchanges, you still have it (so no net gain), but if you didn't have priority in the old system, you only have it with points (at least from what I understand), which means you have to take the loss/skim in point conversion; in my mind that means it certainly isn't free even if you qualify for it.

Anyway, the debate on this has been really useful for me to make a good bottom-line decision for me, and it's hard for me to say some people are being too negative when you can't trade like-for-like in the new system.  To me that's a significant issue.  Fortunately, for many who don't like the points aspect, buying into the new program doesn't force you to convert, so at least it can benefit some people.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 8, 2010)

DanCali said:


> II will always have surplus and will look for ways to dump it... I was looking at this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whoops, sorry, that trip was November, 2009.


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## JimIg23 (Jul 8, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> My other point, and I've made this before, is that there is no hurry to jump into the new program at this time. Unless of course you have planning issues and not joining causes you to lose benefits. I'll probably join but, I want to see this puppy taken for a test drive first. I'm afraid there's going to be a few more potholes in the road I'm not seeing yet. Maybe even a few more benefits I haven't considered.



There are two factors that may impact:
1) for resale people: Marriott does not have to continue to allow resale owers (pre-June 20) to join.  Will they stop allowing resalers?

2) How about cost to join?  Will they raise their prices to join?  What does other TS company that convert to points charge?


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> These 2-for-1 deals haven't always been available in II, or if they have I missed them somehow in my constant TUG reading.  The first I'd heard of them was when mention was made just a couple months ago of the SuperSecret II Agent who's apparently the only II rep able to do it.  And like any other "extra" option, they're as apt to be discontinued as continued.  I'd rather risk the known factors than the unknowns.



AC's have been available since we first purchased in 1998 with DRI. If you've missed it it's only because those threads weren't of interest to you. In fact I just recieved a mailing from Interval today offering us an AC if we deposited our Villa's at Polo Towers week by August 10th of this year. No super secrete agent involved. Just a routine offer from Interval to encourage us to deposit our week. I assume it's a week they can use plus, if I deposit it, they know I'll be exchange money to find another week.....or two. 

This option has been there most of the time for this particular week. We have another week that use to recieve the same offer but, for the last two years has not. Like you've stated, such offers can be discontinued. For that matter, there isn't anything about exchanging that's forever. The rules are always prone to change. One reason I don't advocate that the typical timeshare owner buy strictly to exchange. You never know when or how the rules will change and how they will impact your ownership.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> These 2-for-1 deals haven't always been available in II, or if they have I missed them somehow in my constant TUG reading.  The first I'd heard of them was when mention was made just a couple months ago of the SuperSecret II Agent who's apparently the only II rep able to do it.  And like any other "extra" option, they're as apt to be discontinued as continued.  I'd rather risk the known factors than the unknowns.



The 2-four-1 downgrade XYZ is a fairly well known, yet not published benefit in II. If you were to complain to II how you were regularly giving up a 3BR unit for a 2BR more times than not, a well apt II agent should have mentioned this to you. The only problem with that offer is you have to know both weeks you want to exchange in to and book weeks that add up to the same unit size as the unit you are giving up. Two exchange fees need to be paid, but this is the same as what a lock off owner is doing also.

The "super secret II agent" program is far more restrictive to only off season weeks of locations with high supply and low demand times. It doesn't work of many people so it is not a good option for most. But the unit compensation XYZ program should be more flexible.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> There are two factors that may impact:
> 1) for resale people: Marriott does not have to continue to allow resale owers (pre-June 20) to join.  Will they stop allowing resalers?
> 
> 2) How about cost to join?  Will they raise their prices to join?  What does other TS company that convert to points charge?



On #1 Marriott likes to create a sense of ugrency to get people to jump. It's an old but very effective sales tool. To create that sense of urgency they have to make us guess. Marriott also doesn't have to continue to allow developer purchased weeks into the program either. It's just that it's in their best interest to do so. So long as Marriott believes it's in their best interest to allow resale buyers into the program that's what they'll do. At this time the one thing Marriott doesn't want to do is have a glut of people snatching up resale weeks at ultra cheap prices just to convert into the points program. That would provide to much compitition to overcome during the start up phase. Give it time and we may see Marriott open the door just a crack to let addtional resale buyers in. That will only happen if/when they feel it's in their best interests. 

On #2, I have a snail mailing that guarentee's they'll hold the price and bonus points until our next reservation. After that all bets are off. Again, create a sense of urgency. The mailing I have strongly urges us to sit down with a sales executive. Urgency AND onto the sales floor. A double whammy. Now, will they still offer the incentive of MR points or Marriott bucks to attend? I'm thinking they'll use this to get people onto the sales floor without having to gift them to get them there. In fact, they'll be getting people onto the sales floor AND getting some of them to pay Marriott rather than expecting a gift. Pretty slick if you ask me. 

Eventually they'll increase the price. The almost have to in order to maintaint the edge on that sense of urgency. They want to be able to show you that you missed out by not jumping when they said to jump! Ever have the saleman tell you to buy now, they're planning a price increase very soon.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 8, 2010)

tombo said:


> You made my point for me using your own experience. Using an AC which you won't get with points you will be 2395 points short of what you need using points. No AC's with points, no downtrades as Dancali stated "3Br to 2Br "downtrades" in II come with the option of either (i) an extra week for $149 in a unit as big as the one deposited with restrictions on location, or (i) an extra week for $149 in a unit a 1BR or studio (compensation for size downgrade) with no restrictions on location...", and so it is a losing situation. In II you got 4 weeks for depositing 3 weeks. Using points it would take 4 weeks deposited to get the same 4 exchange weeks which is loss of exchange power pure and simple.



If II does not offer me an AC for the deposit, which they've not done for the last two years, how do you propose I can get four weeks for three weeks of deposits?  I understand that AC's are a benefit that will give the Weeks system an advantage over Points, but they're worth absolutely nothing if they're not offered to you.  As I explained, if I had to use four Weeks then that's what I'd get from II - four weeks.  If I have to use Points for the same four weeks, I'll have a surplus of Points.  It's that simple.  As for XYZ, as far as I knew it wasn't available at the time of my past exchanges.  It is now, but in my situation it doesn't make any sense to me to not enroll based on the possibility that XYZ will always be available.



tombo said:


> In addition you don't mention any resorts that require more than the 4625 points you get annually for your gold 3 bed room that you have gotten in the past using your 3 bed gold week for exchange with II. MAW ocean view is 5025 points. You could exchange for it using your gold 3 bed room in II, but you won't have enough points to exchange for it after converting since you will only get 4625 a year. I feel sure that you have received exchanges in the past to resorts/weeks/views exchanging hrough II that are now unattainable because they cost more than 4625 points. If you could get them before, but you can no longer exchange your 3 bed for those weeks, you have lost trading power pure and simple.



Honest, Tombo, that's my exchange history right there in front of you.  No doubt there will be some exchanges that could possibly happen in II that will be unavailable with Points, but there's nothing else in my II exchange history to compare and contrast with Points.  As far as having no chance for certain resorts/weeks using Points, well, that was something I expected from the Points system before it was rolled out.  It's a factor that I've considered but I'm satisfied with knowing that if I want something out of range of a one-for-one trade, then I'll have to combine Points or bank/borrow to make it happen.  That's my choice, and I know it's not one that everyone wants to have to make. 



tombo said:


> The prime weeks/views/resorts are what everyone joined Marriott to get, not off season, poor locations. The fact that some weeks are cheaper is not a selling point. I never sat through a sales presentation where the rep pointed out all the less popular resorts and seasons I could exchange for if I purchased, only the top resorts and seasons. Those top resorts/seasons were possible for me to get in the past, but using points they are now impossible because they cost more points than I would get.



Actually, we like off-season or shoulder travel and bought the Plat week at SW because 1) it could be combined with one of our Gold weeks to use the 13-mo reservation window to book the two weeks straddling Memorial Day, and 2) it could be expected to get us a greater exchange value in II.  It does, but just like our sales rep told us, it doesn't guarantee a 3BR unit in return.  It just opens the door to resorts which may be rated more highly than most others - and that's exactly what its point value will do in the Points system.

As for your own usage and what you expect from the Points system, I don't blame you one bit for not enrolling.  It doesn't appear that you will get anywhere near the value that you've gotten from II.  If I was in the same situation then my decision would be different. 



tombo said:


> Not trying to make you cut off your nose, just pointing out the obvious. If what you owned would get you week 6 at xyz resort in the past, but exchanging that same week for points will not get you enough points to exchange for the week you could exchange for before, the new system is not an upgrade over what you got with II.



Agreed.  But as I've demonstrated, what I can conceivably get in Points is an upgrade over what I've gotten in the past from II.  That's the barometer you asked me to measure, isn't it?


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## SueDonJ (Jul 8, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> AC's have been available since we first purchased in 1998 with DRI. If you've missed it it's only because those threads weren't of interest to you. In fact I just recieved a mailing from Interval today offering us an AC if we deposited our Villa's at Polo Towers week by August 10th of this year. No super secrete agent involved. Just a routine offer from Interval to encourage us to deposit our week. I assume it's a week they can use plus, if I deposit it, they know I'll be exchange money to find another week.....or two.
> 
> This option has been there most of the time for this particular week. We have another week that use to recieve the same offer but, for the last two years has not. Like you've stated, such offers can be discontinued. For that matter, there isn't anything about exchanging that's forever. The rules are always prone to change. One reason I don't advocate that the typical timeshare owner buy strictly to exchange. You never know when or how the rules will change and how they will impact your ownership.





dioxide45 said:


> The 2-four-1 downgrade XYZ is a fairly well known, yet not published benefit in II. If you were to complain to II how you were regularly giving up a 3BR unit for a 2BR more times than not, a well apt II agent should have mentioned this to you. The only problem with that offer is you have to know both weeks you want to exchange in to and book weeks that add up to the same unit size as the unit you are giving up. Two exchange fees need to be paid, but this is the same as what a lock off owner is doing also.
> 
> The "super secret II agent" program is far more restrictive to only off season weeks of locations with high supply and low demand times. It doesn't work of many people so it is not a good option for most. But the unit compensation XYZ program should be more flexible.



We've gotten AC offers in the past, maybe four years running?  But nothing last year, and nothing so far this year.  I agree they're a big plus especially if you can use them during Flexchange which is what we did.  I hate that we're not getting them lately, that's for sure.

As far as XYZ, depending on how other enrolled folks make out with doing the same type of Weeks exchanges through the corporate II account, I'm considering keeping my individual II account open through the date we're paid up, July 2012.  That will give us another option for at least the next few years and if we end up exchanging that way then I'll definitely try for the XYZ.  If nothing else, at least I can make use of the Getaways inventory for the next few years, which is my favorite II usage anyway.  I'm hoping that the reports are true that Enrolled owners will have access to Getaways, but I won't be surprised if it goes away.


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## tombo (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Agreed.  But as I've demonstrated, what I can conceivably get in Points is an upgrade over what I've gotten in the past from II.  That's the barometer you asked me to measure, isn't it?



It is not an upgrade when you can trade for resorts that cost over 4625 points by depositing your week in II while not being able to trade for those same resorts using points. You don't even get enough points to trade for equally valued resorts, much less upgrades. Using II you can upgrade, downgrade, or do like for like exchanges. In points NO upgrades, NO like for like exchanges, only downgrades with some points given back as change.

You can exchange for all weeks using II that you can exchange for using points, but you can also trade for weeks/resorts using II that you can't exchange for using points, that makes points less valuable. The fact that you can get some points back on lesser weeks doesn't negate the fact that more weeks and resorts are available for a 2 bed room owner using II than you can get using the points you get for depositing your 3 bed unit.

As long as some resorts exist that you can't afford to trade for using your week's allocation of points that can be exchanged for using your same week deposited in II, points are less valuable and no way an upgrade. If Marriott sells you an upgrade you will have access to more inventory, not less.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 8, 2010)

I am interested to know what "values" Perry sees in this new system? Perhaps I should have attended a webinar or bought an ebook to get that though .

It seems Perry's main argument that he mentioned here was that they were permitting resale owners to get in to what full freight developer purchasers get for a what they paid for a resale unit. Meaning resale enrollees can now exchange for Marriott Rewards Points. However it has long been argued that the trade for points option is very often a poor use of a week. After paying MF and giving up your week, the number of points one gets is not usually worth giving up your use week.

So I go back to try and find out what benefit Perry sees in this other than the profit potential of selling something to 400K plus owners?


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> We've gotten AC offers in the past, maybe four years running?  But nothing last year, and nothing so far this year.  I agree they're a big plus especially if you can use them during Flexchange which is what we did.  I hate that we're not getting them lately, that's for sure.
> 
> As far as XYZ, depending on how other enrolled folks make out with doing the same type of Weeks exchanges through the corporate II account, I'm considering keeping my individual II account open through the date we're paid up, July 2012.  That will give us another option for at least the next few years and if we end up exchanging that way then I'll definitely try for the XYZ.  If nothing else, at least I can make use of the Getaways inventory for the next few years, which is my favorite II usage anyway.  I'm hoping that the reports are true that Enrolled owners will have access to Getaways, but I won't be surprised if it goes away.



I still have one non-Marriott week. It's not a high value week but, it's done very well for exchanges and, it's a week we can use if all else fails. It's sort of the best of both worlds. I can get good trades or use it for personal use and be happy.

One of the decisions I'll need to make is to hang onto this week, along with the personal I.I. account, or dump it and save the MF's and I.I. account fee's. At this point in time I believe I'll keep the week and leave the personal account open. Call it a security net in the event I'm not happy with Marriott's new program.

I believe that, in the end, we'll be happy with Marriott's program. It appears that it will work for the way we use our weeks. I tend to be cautious and try to set myself up to have a back up plan in place should things not go the way I plan. Right now I'm sitting in a pretty good position to maintain the vacations we enjoy.

Yours appears to be a case where you'll find value with your usage. If you own three bedroom and are tired of trading down to two bedroom units without compensation for that third bedroom, this could be a good move for your situation. Just make sure you look over the points you'll recieve and the exchanges you'd want to make. Understand that, even though the prices in points are listed, the weeks aren't guarenteed to be available. Understand how to save/borrow points and decide that, if you have excess points, how will you use them. Are short stays a possiblity for those points or are you satisfied if they end up being wasted so long as you get what you want.

The efficiency of points is well documented. The skim Marriott takes.....not so much. In the end the skim doesn't matter so long as you manage the economy of points to get the exchanges you want as efficienly as possible.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 8, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I am interested to know what "values" Perry sees in this new system? Perhaps I should have attended a webinar or bought an ebook to get that though .
> 
> It seems Perry's main argument that he mentioned here was that they were permitting resale owners to get in to what full freight developer purchasers get for a what they paid for a resale unit. Meaning resale enrollees can now exchange for Marriott Rewards Points. However it has long been argued that the trade for points option is very often a poor use of a week. After paying MF and giving up your week, the number of points one gets is not usually worth giving up your use week.
> 
> So I go back to try and find out what benefit Perry sees in this other than the profit potential of selling something to 400K plus owners?



On the one point he would be correct. Resale buyers are getting in on the cheap. But, just because you can get in cheaper than someone who purchaed at developer pricing does not make this a good deal. That's the same logic as buying something you don't need, just because you can get it at a great price. Even though it's a great price, it's still a waste of money.

Make sure the program will work for you before laying down unnecessary cash. Don't give into the impulse purchase or the sense of urgency a salesman creates. That's what gets most timeshare buyers into trouble in the first place. 

Once you have looked the program over, read the documents and are certain you can glean either savings and/or the exchanges you've never been able to get before, then it's time to make a move. The program might be a rose but there are still thorns to be aware of.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 8, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> On #2, I have a snail mailing that guarentee's they'll hold the price and bonus points until our next reservation. After that all bets are off. Again, create a sense of urgency. The mailing I have strongly urges us to sit down with a sales executive. Urgency AND onto the sales floor. A double whammy. Now, will they still offer the incentive of MR points or Marriott bucks to attend? I'm thinking they'll use this to get people onto the sales floor without having to gift them to get them there. In fact, they'll be getting people onto the sales floor AND getting some of them to pay Marriott rather than expecting a gift. Pretty slick if you ask me.



I think our snail mail letter is worded much the same as yours. Though I do think that the deadline to enroll is actually held to the date they mention of 12/31. Once they lay a date out I would take it to mean that even if I don't enroll when meeting with the sales executive in October I still have until 12/31 to enroll and still receive the promo 800 points and price guaranty.


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## Fredm (Jul 8, 2010)

tombo said:


> It is not an upgrade when you can trade for resorts that cost over 4625 points by depositing your week in II while not being able to trade for those same resorts using points for the same week. You don't even get enough points to trade for equally valued resorts, much less upgrades. Using II you can upgrade, downgrade, or do like for like exchanges. In points NO upgrades, NO like for like exchanges, only downgrades with some points given back as change.
> 
> You can exchange for all weeks using II that you can exchange for using points, but you can also trade for weeks/resorts using II that you can't exchange for using points, that makes points less valuable. The fact that you can get some points back on lesser weeks doesn't negate the fact that more weeks and resorts are available for a 2 bed room owner using II than you can get using the points you get for depositing your 3 bed unit.
> 
> As long as some resorts exist that you can't afford to trade for using your week's allocation of points that can be exchanged for using your same week deposited in II, points are less valuable and no way an upgrade. If Marriott sells you an upgrade you will have access to more inventory, not less.



tombo, everything you have said is true.
The part I do not understand about your argument is this:
What does SueDonJ lose by joining?
If everything can still be accomplished via I.I., what has been lost? Legacy members can choose to not use their points.

It seems to me that a legacy owner must only decide if the $1500-2000 investment is worth the added option of using points on those occasions that it benefits their plans.
It really isn't any more complicated than that.

As was aptly stated in an earlier post, there are no experts here on this program. But, it is not rocket science. I do believe most get the points being made (no pun intended).


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## SueDonJ (Jul 8, 2010)

tombo said:


> It is not an upgrade when you can trade for resorts that cost over 4625 points by depositing your week in II while not being able to trade for those same resorts using points for the same week. You don't even get enough points to trade for equally valued resorts, much less upgrades. Using II you can upgrade, downgrade, or do like for like exchanges. In points NO upgrades, NO like for like exchanges, only downgrades with some points given back as change.
> 
> You can exchange for all weeks using II that you can exchange for using points, but you can also trade for weeks/resorts using II that you can't exchange for using points, that makes points less valuable. The fact that you can get some points back on lesser weeks doesn't negate the fact that more weeks and resorts are available for a 2 bed room owner using II than you can get using the points you get for depositing your 3 bed unit.
> 
> As long as some resorts exist that you can't afford to trade for using your week's allocation of points that can be exchanged for using your same week deposited in II, points are less valuable and no way an upgrade. If Marriott sells you an upgrade you will have access to more inventory, not less.



I'm not following your train of thought at all.  You asked me to look at my past trade history and compare it to how the same exchanges would work in the Points system.  I took it one step further and compared it as as well to what could happen with II now considering they haven't offered me an AC for two years.  In every exchange but one I came out with a surplus of Points, and that was the one we used an AC which is no longer available for that deposit.  So for that one week we'd have to use another week to get the same four-week exchange, and using that fourth week would give us a Points surplus.  How do you figure that Points would not work better for me than Weeks if I tried to do the exact same exchanges that I've gotten in the past?

Now you're asking me to guess at what my future success could possibly look like in II compared to what the Points system could possibly look like then.  How am I supposed to do that?!  All I can do is look at both systems that are in place now and have to co-exist, and try to make an educated guess as to which will be more successful.  We've been through this - I think Marriott's focus will be on making a success of their Points program.  But by enrolling I will actually have access to both systems as they will exist in the future, and in my mind that's a better value than not enrolling, staying with Weeks, and hoping that Marriott will not devalue Weeks any further than they already have.  It's pretty much understood that the Program Manager for Points will be able to submit exchange requests to II when a Marriott internal exchange is not available, and that means the possibility exists for Weeks requests to be in competition with Points requests for the same II inventory.  How is that not a devaluation for Weeks?

You seem to be so determined to find some way to figure out why it doesn't make sense for me to enroll.  Yet you can't guarantee any level of success going forward with Weeks, any more than I can with Points.  You told me to, "... go back through exchanges you made in the past using II and see how many of those resorts you can no longer trade for using the points they give you when you deposit your 3 bed unit into the points program ..." and that's what I did.  If I tried to do ALL of my past exchanges in the Weeks system, it would cost me one more week for the AC which hasn't been made available for the last two years.  But if I tried to do ALL of my past exchanges with the Points system, it could be done AND it would give me a surplus of Points.  So what, now that my answers didn't work to prove your point, you're changing the questions?  Come on, Tombo.  If it bothers you that much to admit that there IS a possibility for even one Weeks owner to get usage value in the Points system, then just say that and be done.  Stop changing the rules to suit your game.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 8, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> On the one point he would be correct. Resale buyers are getting in on the cheap. But, just because you can get in cheaper than someone who purchaed at developer pricing does not make this a good deal. That's the same logic as buying something you don't need, just because you can get it at a great price. Even though it's a great price, it's still a waste of money.
> 
> Make sure the program will work for you before laying down unnecessary cash. Don't give into the impulse purchase or the sense of urgency a salesman creates. That's what gets most timeshare buyers into trouble in the first place.
> 
> Once you have looked the program over, read the documents and are certain you can glean either savings and/or the exchanges you've never been able to get before, then it's time to make a move. The program might be a rose but there are still thorns to be aware of.



We agree that it is best to wait this out. There is no sense of urgency. Which is surprising from any timeshare developer. I would have expected a shorter time frame on the "special offers" and price guarantees.

Given the deadline of 12/31, the July date for points reservations/usage, and the number of other Tuggers that have enrolled, I think waiting it out for several months is the best plan.

Since the only benefit I see that works for us is the consolidated fee, to see how the corporate II account functions and what one still has access to with it is very important. I doubt it will be as flexible as ones current individual account. Can one upgrade to gold, get short-stay exchanges, access to XYZ inventory, ease of exchanging up in unit size. This all remains to be answered.

The longer term issue I have a concern with is will Marriott pull a power play and force all enrollees to make deposits through Marriott rather than allow owners to reserve and deposit. I see this as a very high probability to happen in the next few years. If Marriott discovers that they are always having to trade for the high prime inventory they are watching owners deposit, they would likely make this switch. This would be one of the biggest hits if they did this and would cause me to regret any decision to enroll.


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## m61376 (Jul 8, 2010)

Will the Marriott Club account allow for AC's and the XYZ promo when depositing weeks into II?


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## SueDonJ (Jul 8, 2010)

Fredm said:


> tombo, everything you have said is true.
> The part I do not understand about your argument is this:
> What does SueDonJ lose by joining?
> If everything can still be accomplished via I.I., what has been lost? Legacy members can choose to not use their points.
> ...



Exactly!  An Enrolled Points owner has access to BOTH Weeks and Points systems.  (BTW, Fred, the initial investment for Points is lower than your $1500-2000 figure for developer-direct purchases.)


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## Fredm (Jul 8, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Exactly!  An Enrolled Points owner has access to BOTH Weeks and Points systems.  *(BTW, Fred, the initial investment for Points is lower than your $1500-2000 figure for developer-direct purchases.)*



I know. I just don't want to overstate the case. That is why I omitted the potential economic advantage of the bundled fee as well.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 8, 2010)

Susan, I think what tombo is trying to indicate is that you likely haven't been using the current II weeks system to it's fullest potential. Likely because you were not aware of current programs they make available for inequitable exchanges in unit size. Given that you tend to travel in off/shoulder season, the XYZ program seems like it would work in your situation.

In your situation you also have a cheaper buy in to enroll than those of us that bought resale. While we dis buy on the cheap, $1500-$2000 isn't something that many resale buyers may be willing to shell out. If the price was in the $600-$700 range, it would be an easier decision for us. Sure in the end resale buyers appear to be getting a great deal in that they can get what developer buyers paid higher price for, though $2K isn't something I am willing to part with lightly.

The points system that is offered may seem to be more of a sure thing, and it likely is. You then only have to deal with Marriott to get what you want. There is no uncertainty with II or XYZ. Marriott either has the inventory to reserve for you or they don't.

Changes can and will likely happen in points, and devaluation will likely happen in points just as it will continue to happen in weeks.

I have no problem with anyone's decision to enroll in points. We have decided that points exchanges won't give us near the same value that we have been able to get in weeks. So we will likely stick with weeks. I agree, as you have said that everyone's situation is different and points will work for some and it won't for others.


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## tombo (Jul 8, 2010)

Simple. With II exchanges a 2 bed Orlando deposit  can exchange for your 3 bed gold week, or another unit valued by Marriott to be worth the same number of points as your week. You on the other hand can't deposit your 3 bed room unit into points and exchange for any like week using points.  The 2 bed exchanger also can based on availability get AC's which points can't (which you have received 4 of the last 6 years), 2 for ones not available to points, lock-offs which points can't deposit separatelly, and II weeks deposits can trade up to units it would take you two weeks worth of points to reserve. 

If a 2 bed week deposited in II can exchange for multiple weeks at resorts/ seasons that you can't access using your 3 bed gold week (especially 2 bed units valued by Marriott as worth 2500 points or less exchanging for inventory you can't access with 4600 points), you are not getting more value than you did before, you are getting less. Many Orlando/Branson weeks have traded for multiple weeks and/or reosrts in the past that your points won't allow you to reserve, and they will continue to do so for the forseeable future.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 8, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Will the Marriott Club account allow for AC's and the XYZ promo when depositing weeks into II?



This is a question that remains to be answered and the only way I think we will get answers is from personal experiences from people here. XYZ is an unpublished offer and ACs are only made available to a limited number of owners and notified via a post card. So II won't make any announcements about this.


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## tombo (Jul 8, 2010)

Fredm said:


> tombo, everything you have said is true.
> The part I do not understand about your argument is this:
> What does SueDonJ lose by joining?
> If everything can still be accomplished via I.I., what has been lost? Legacy members can choose to not use their points.
> ...



First if you agree that the points exchanges aren't a good value, why join?  If you are going to continue to deposit in II and not use points why convert? You will lose voting rights, you will still have to maintain an II account if you have non Marriott weeks you would want to deposit and exchange, and probably now or in the near future if you want to retain access to extra vacations you will have to maintain a separate II account negating that savings. If you use points the skim is a fee when ever you exchange or reserve a lock-off negating the supposedly free exchange fees. I am still wating to see if all Marriott weeks exchanges through II will remain free in upcoming years for multiple weeks owners, but supposedly it is now which is a plus if true. 

One other problem is the wording where Marriott points members weeks are somehow controlled by Marriott. Does that mean that they can take them from II weeks deposits and dole them out to points redemptions unlike weeks owners deposited weeks? What extra rights does Marriott have to points members weeks deposited in II over weeks owner's deposits (if any). The fewer people that convert to points, the less access to prime inventory they will have leaving more with weeks owners. 

Plus why pay marriott to convert because they threaten you might be sorry if you don't rather than actually launching a program owners are lining up to join? When their biggest sales point is not the points program itself but threats of loss of exchange access in the future if you don't convert, that is not sales, that is extortion.


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## dannybaker (Jul 9, 2010)

*A/C every year at San Diego Country estates*

We own 2 weeks at San Diego Country Estates and every year we get a two for one from II. The resort is nice but in my opinion not as nice as Marriott resorts.  I do not understand why II give the certificates to certain resorts but not to other resorts.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 9, 2010)

tombo said:


> First if you agree that the points exchanges aren't a good value, why join?




Because this isn't JUST a points club. For those who own multiple weeks, lock those units off and exchange, the DC offers a cost savings. 

I can save the cost of my I.I. membership $89
I can save the cost of two lock off fee's $150
I can save the cost of 1 to 4 exchanges $109 to $436

The annual membership fee is $199. You do the math. 

If I have the same benefits with Marriott's corporate account as I do with my personal account, it wouldn't make sense not to join. 

Now if I only own one week, it's not a lock-off unit and I only make exchanges every so often, then the only reason I can see for joining is to lock in the price/option in case my situation changes. Personally, it wouldn't make sense in this scenario. 

But my scenario includes locking off two units every year and I know we'll make, at a minimum, two exchange per year. If we join I plan on making at least three exchanges per year. I'll recover our initial fee's in 3 years. 

All lthis and I'm NEVER converting my weeks to points. I'm not using points. Why not join?

As to losing voting rights, I lose the right to vote against the interest of the DC. So what? If I'm a member of the DC why would I want to vote against it. Should there come a time when the DC makes demands that require I vote against it, no problem. I just non-renew my membership and I'm out. I can vote however I want. I think we're making mountains out of mole hills on the voting issue.

The only thing the DC controls are the weeks owned by the trust. You still hold title to your deed, Marriott doesn't. You don't give your deed to Marriott. You keep it. You're only buying in to use the option of points in the DC and getting the benefits of Marriott's corporate account. 

Interval has clarified the situation about the DC obtaining weeks from Interval. The exchange manager has to do the same thing every other owner has to do. They have to make a like for like exchange. There's not going to be any weeks raiding from weeks owners via Interval. 

The only people that threaten "you might be sorry" is some sorry excuse of a sales person trying every trick in the book to figure out how to sell you more points. Marriott doesn't care. They've given existing owners until Dec. 31st to figure out whether this program is right for them or not. IMHO that's a rather generous amount of time to take to consider this option. I plan on using a majority of it to see how things really shake out. I've read the literature. I've read the posts. Now I'd like to see what those who have joined think about the program when they get the chance to take it for a spin.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 9, 2010)

dannybaker said:


> We own 2 weeks at San Diego Country Estates and every year we get a two for one from II. The resort is nice but in my opinion not as nice as Marriott resorts.  I do not understand why II give the certificates to certain resorts but not to other resorts.




Because some developers pay Interval a fee for those AC's. They use it as a sales tool to get people to buy. "This resort is in such high demand, Interval has to have your week so they'll give you an extra exchange week just so they can have it."

DRI does this in reverse if you look at the deals section with Interval. Book an exchange into a DRI resort during specified dates (usually shoulder or off season) and you'll get a AC. They do this to get timeshare owners into their resorts in hopes that a certain percentage will take the tour, see the benfit of owning with them and buy. 

Why do I believe some resort pay for the AC's? Because Polo Towers, a nice but older resort, get's an AC but the newer, nicer Marriott right next to it does not. Marriott doesn't have to buy AC's from Interval to sell their timeshares.


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## Fredm (Jul 9, 2010)

tombo said:


> First if you agree that the points exchanges aren't a good value, why join?  If you are going to continue to deposit in II and not use points why convert? You will lose voting rights, you will still have to maintain an II account if you have non Marriott weeks you would want to deposit and exchange, and probably now or in the near future if you want to retain access to extra vacations you will have to maintain a separate II account negating that savings. If you use points the skim is a fee when ever you exchange or reserve a lock-off negating the supposedly free exchange fees. I am still wating to see if all Marriott weeks exchanges through II will remain free in upcoming years for multiple weeks owners, but supposedly it is now which is a plus if true.
> 
> One other problem is the wording where Marriott points members weeks are somehow controlled by Marriott. Does that mean that they can take them from II weeks deposits and dole them out to points redemptions unlike weeks owners deposited weeks? What extra rights does Marriott have to points members weeks deposited in II over weeks owner's deposits (if any). The fewer people that convert to points, the less access to prime inventory they will have leaving more with weeks owners.
> 
> Plus why pay marriott to convert because they threaten you might be sorry if you don't rather than actually launching a program owners are lining up to join? When their biggest sales point is not the points program itself but threats of loss of exchange access in the future if you don't convert, that is not sales, that is extortion.



tombo, I don't know how else to say this.
Just because you are right about the facts you keep repeating, does not make someone else wrong if they decide the added flexibility is worth the price of admission.

I will add that you _may not_ be right about everything. Please consider the remote possibility that your perspective, or interpretations of language that have not been tested in use may, in part, be wrong.  But, for the sake of this discussion I am willing to say that you are right. So what?


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## tombo (Jul 9, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Because this isn't JUST a points club. For those who own multiple weeks, lock those units off and exchange, the DC offers a cost savings.
> 
> I can save the cost of my I.I. membership $89
> I can save the cost of two lock off fee's $150
> ...




If you own a non Marriott resort, you will still have to pay for an II membership or lose the ability to exchange non marriott weeks owned. If you own one week it will not be a cost savings. If you own 2 weeks and still have to pay for II to get access to extra vacations, 2 exchanges a year will be $218 saving a whopping $19 a year in exchange fees. To recover the $699 joining fee will take you a lifetime. If you have to pay $1999 to convert and trade 4 times a year it will take 10 years to break even, that is providing that Marriott doesn't sometime in the next 10 years decide to start charging for internal exchanges and assuming that the annual membership fee remains the same.





dougp26364 said:


> All lthis and I'm NEVER converting my weeks to points. I'm not using points. Why not join?
> 
> As to losing voting rights, I lose the right to vote against the interest of the DC. So what? If I'm a member of the DC why would I want to vote against it. Should there come a time when the DC makes demands that require I vote against it, no problem. I just non-renew my membership and I'm out. I can vote however I want. .



Please reread the voting clause. You CAN NOT vote against ANYTHING that Marriott feels will be detrimental to the system including but not limited to removing them as management of the resort. If Marriott feels that a new pool, a new sales office, a new anything they decide needs to be done you can't vote against it if tey feel in their infinite wisdom that to not build it would be detrimental. Any assessments they deem necessary, sorry just pay and shut up. They quadruple their mgt fees, assess you 3 years out of 4, raise your MF's 15% every year, no voting them out. They do a poor job, too bad you can't get rid of them. You have now told your employee that no matter what they do or don't do regarding their job you that you can't fire them. That is worse than most union contracts. 

Please re-read the contract because I think I read that once you give up those voting rights you don't get them back even if you quit the points program. I might have read it wrong, so feel free to look it up as I am late for work and don't have time to look for it now.



dougp26364 said:


> The only thing the DC controls are the weeks owned by the trust. You still hold title to your deed, Marriott doesn't. You don't give your deed to Marriott. You keep it. You're only buying in to use the option of points in the DC and getting the benefits of Marriott's corporate account.
> 
> Interval has clarified the situation about the DC obtaining weeks from Interval. The exchange manager has to do the same thing every other owner has to do. They have to make a like for like exchange. There's not going to be any weeks raiding from weeks owners via Interval. .



Marriott has the 13 month reservation advantage minimum (I assume they negotiated more but we will stick with that). II said that like weeks must be deposited for inventory taken. A lot of wiggle room there. Under the new points program Marriott can tell II it knows exactly what like deposits and withdrawals are using point values  An Ocean Front Maui week worth 5800 points can be removed while Marriott deposits five 1200 point Branson weeks. Heck Marriott took 5800 points out, but they put 6000 points in. At 12 months you will have access to all II inventory that remains, and what will remain is what Marriott didn't need for their points members. You should be able to visit branson, Vegas, and Orlando unlimited times each year with the inventory that will be left at 12 months.



dougp26364 said:


> The only people that threaten "you might be sorry" is some sorry excuse of a sales person trying every trick in the book to figure out how to sell you more points. Marriott doesn't care. They've given existing owners until Dec. 31st to figure out whether this program is right for them or not. IMHO that's a rather generous amount of time to take to consider this option. I plan on using a majority of it to see how things really shake out. I've read the literature. I've read the posts. Now I'd like to see what those who have joined think about the program when they get the chance to take it for a spin.



I hope it fails miserably because if few convert Marriott will have little need to raid weeks nventory for limited numbers of points members. The points are so expensive that those sales will be tough to come by, and the number of people buying enough points to get good trades should be small. I would think that waiting until others had joined and test driven the system would have always been the way to go since you had until dec 31'st minimum to enroll. Why rush? If anyone is on the fence, wait for the reviews. 

Of course the problem with the early reviews is that Marriott will absolutelly make sure everyone gets everything they want in the beginning so that people aren't laying by the pool complaining about limited inventory in points. The true test will be how the program works a couple of years down the road, which is why they are trying to get people enrolled now before owners start complaining about the points skimming and other issues most who don't read TUG have no knowledge of.


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## windje2000 (Jul 9, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Because this isn't JUST a points club. For those who own multiple weeks, lock those units off and exchange, the DC offers a cost savings.
> 
> I can save the cost of my I.I. membership $89
> I can save the cost of two lock off fee's $150
> ...



I'm exactly where you are.  

3 units of which one locks off for a total of four exchangeable weeks.  

Never been to the 'home' resorts - 100% trader

So the fee payback calculation for me is 4 exchanges, a lock-off fee and membership fee per year.  Plus whatever I can get with 800 one time points.

I agree with you that the voting stuff doesn't really matter - you're a minority owner and there's virtually no difference between having a voting interest and a non-voting interest.  Besides, based on the alleged ROFR insertion into Summitt Watch, sounds like MVCI will do whatever it wants whether it has the votes or not.  Do I like being disenfranchised?  In principle no, I don't like it at all.  In practice, there's not a lot of difference.  If it bothers me that much, I'm probably better off voting with my feet.

So if all else were equal, this is a no brainer.  But all else is not equal.  

The one key objection for me is the ability to 'browse' II exchanges availability.  The MVCI website seems to require one to know where and when they want to go.  

That's a sufficiently big minus to me that I would seriously consider paying the extra fees to be able to 'browse' II inventory.

I think MVCI is 'fixing' that.  We'll see.  Its astonishing to me that they know so little about how their customers use the product.


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## tombo (Jul 9, 2010)

Fredm said:


> tombo, I don't know how else to say this.
> Just because you are right about the facts you keep repeating, does not make someone else wrong if they decide the added flexibility is worth the price of admission.
> 
> I will add that you _may not_ be right about everything. Please consider the remote possibility that your interpretations of language that has not been tested in use may be wrong.  But, for the sake of this discussion I am willing to say that you are right. So what?



So DON"T JOIN!!!!!  I am not saying I am right on everything, but I am hopefully right on enough things to convince many people who read my posts to NOT CONVERT. Let this slap in the face of owners by Marriott to create a new revenue source die a miserable death. Don't join points allowing Marriott to change what they sold for over 2 decades just so they can make new sales. Don't let their scare tactics of future limited exchange access scare you. If 80% to 90% don't convert you will remain with plenty of access as you have in the past. 

DVC is not converting to weeks (please don't say that a couple of resorts have a few fixed weeks for sale, they are NOT converting point owners to weeks). DVC is staying true to their customers and continuing with the POINTS program they sold all members, not trying something new since the economy is bad and their sales slowed. 

Points are monopoly money changeable at any time for any reason which has no real value. I don't like points. I didn't buy points. No one here bought points, everyone bought weeks. Speak with your dollars and tell Marriott to forget trying to sell you some worthless points and to please keep operating the system that they sold all the current owners. The bells and whistles of free exchanges and $199 a year dues can be changed at any time they feel they have enough people enrolled in points. If they get a large percent enrlled and start dropping many of the perks, most will stay enrolled and they know it.

If the new points system fails and few convert, they will fold the tents and revert to weeks sales. There are plenty of points programs out there, but Marriott wasn't built, designed, or sold as one. I don't buy a minivan hoping one day it might become a convertible sports car. I didn't buy into a weeks program hoping it might one day become points.


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## Fredm (Jul 9, 2010)

tombo said:


> So DON"T JOIN!!!!!  I am not saying I am right on everything, but  am right on enough to hopefully convince most people who read my posts to NOT CONVERT. Let this slap in the face of owners by Marriott to create a new revenue source die a miserable death. Don't join points allowing Marriott to change what they sold for over 2 decades just so they can make new sales. Don't let their scare tactics of future limited exchange access scare you. If 80% to 90% don't convert you will remain with plenty of access as you have in the past.
> 
> DVC is not converting to weeks (please don't say that a couple of resorts have a few fixed weeks for sale, they are NOT converting point owners to weeks). I don't like points. I didn't buy points. No one here bought points, everyone bought weeks. Speak with your dollars and tell Marriott to forget trying to sell you some worthless points and to please keep operating the system that they sold all the current owners. The bells and whistles of free exchanges and $199 a year dues can be changed at any time they feel they have enough people enrolled in points. If they get a large percent enrlled and start dropping many of the perks, most will stay enrolled and they know it.
> 
> There are plenty of points programs out there, but Marriott wasn't built, designed, or sold as one. I don't buy a minivan hoping one day it might become a convertible sports car. I didn't buy into a weeks program hoping it might one day become points.



I think it admirable that you are trying to save people from themselves. You have stated your points clearly and well.
But, why argue with those who have already made an informed decision to join? Why not congratulate them and wish them well? Repeating yourself is not adding to the dialog, IMO.



> If the new points system fails and few convert, they will fold the tents and revert to weeks.



Ah! the nub of the matter. Your crusade to sink the ship is a waste of time. Never happen. It may be a venting channel for you. But, not a productive one. If I were you I would sell my Marriott timeshares, and get on with life. Clearly, Marriott has lost your confidence. Why would you want anything at all to do with them?


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## dougp26364 (Jul 9, 2010)

tombo said:


> So DON"T JOIN!!!!!  I am not saying I am right on everything, but I am hopefully right on enough things to convince many people who read my posts to NOT CONVERT. Let this slap in the face of owners by Marriott to create a new revenue source die a miserable death. Don't join points allowing Marriott to change what they sold for over 2 decades just so they can make new sales. Don't let their scare tactics of future limited exchange access scare you. If 80% to 90% don't convert you will remain with plenty of access as you have in the past.
> 
> DVC is not converting to weeks (please don't say that a couple of resorts have a few fixed weeks for sale, they are NOT converting point owners to weeks). DVC is staying true to their customers and continuing with the POINTS program they sold all members, not trying something new since the economy is bad and their sales slowed.
> 
> ...





You are so stuck on the points issue that you can't see the forrest for the tree's. You're failing to see the good points of the program that Marriott tossed in for legacy week owners. They could have cut weeks owners out completely or, they could have given us a balanced program where you were either in points or not in points. As it is, you can be in the DC and decide each year whether you want to trade in points or trade in weeks. I'm not certain there's another program out there that offers that twist on flexability.

I'll probably join but, I may never convert either of my weeks to points. I think the fear of other owners joining this program is about as irrational as the supersticions seen at a craps table in Vegas.

If you're waiting on the new points system to fail I fear you'll be waiting in vain. It's been three weeks and the program is already a success. After the first points were sold the program became permanent. The legal work has been done. The debts have been accumulated. Titles have already been transfered into the land trust. This puppy isn't going anywhere. If it fails it will bring down the entire Marriott system. Not just the DC but the entire timeshare system of Marriott. You had better hope they don't fail.


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## tombo (Jul 9, 2010)

Fredm said:


> I think it admirable that you are trying to save people from themselves. You have stated your points clearly and well.
> But, why argue with those who have already made an informed decision to join? Repeating yourself is not adding to the dialog, IMO.
> 
> 
> ...



I keep repeating myself because the pro points people keep repeating themselves. The only posts read are the most recent. To hope that people will read through 1000's of old posts is unrealistic.So unless you respond to positive posts with rebuttals showing the negatives, all TUGGERS will falsely appear to be for the new sysytem.

It is not futile. Marriott will not keep promoting points if the current owners do not convert in acceptable numbers and if sales to new customers are poor. It is pure profit to them, nothing more. If a lot of owners convert and sales of new customers are acceptable, yes points are here to stay. However if the sales and revenues from points are not acceptable they will fold the system. 

You assume it is a done deal. I assure you that Marriott will not continue to promote a points plan which is not profitable for them. Just see what they did with their weeks program when sales fell, they started points. If points sales and conversions are bad, they will abandon it too. Only owners can make it fail by refusing to convert. Plety of owners will not convert, by Marriott's own estimates 80%. Many companies predictions are on the high side. Perhaps only 15%, or 10%. Time will tell, but every owner who doesn't convert is another potential nail in the points system's coffin.

You are correct, I have no trust or faith in Marriott, but if the system remains the same I will still have access to the system and inventory I purchased and I will be able to use it to obtain the vacations I bought it to obtain. If points sales are profitable for Marriott and the majority of owners convert to points, I will sell because it no longer performs as it was purchased to do.


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## Fredm (Jul 9, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> You are so stuck on the points issue that you can't see the forrest for the tree's. You're failing to see the good points of the program that Marriott tossed in for legacy week owners. They could have cut weeks owners out completely or, they could have given us a balanced program where you were either in points or not in points. As it is, you can be in the DC and decide each year whether you want to trade in points or trade in weeks. I'm not certain there's another program out there that offers that twist on flexability.
> 
> I'll probably join but, I may never convert either of my weeks to points. I think the fear of other owners joining this program is about as irrational as the supersticions seen at a craps table in Vegas.
> 
> If you're waiting on the new points system to fail I fear you'll be waiting in vain. It's been three weeks and the program is already a success. *After the first points were sold the program became permanent. The legal work has been done. The debts have been accumulated. Titles have already been transfered into the land trust. This puppy isn't going anywhere. *If it fails it will bring down the entire Marriott system. Not just the DC but the entire timeshare system of Marriott. You had better hope they don't fail.



Well said.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 9, 2010)

tombo said:


> I keep repeating myself because the pro points people keep repeating themselves. The only posts read are the most recent. To hope that people will read through 1000's of old posts is unrealistic.So unless you respond to positive posts with rebuttals showing the negatives, all TUGGERS will falsely appear to be for the new sysytem.
> 
> It is not futile. Marriott will not keep promoting points if the current owners do not convert in acceptable numbers and if sales to new customers are poor. It is pure profit to them, nothing more. If a lot of owners convert and sales of new customers are acceptable, yes points are here to stay. However if the sales and revenues from points are not acceptable they will fold the system.
> 
> ...



What you purchased and have legal right to is 1/52 interest in a condo to use during a specified season. You don't own the buildings, the walls, the furniture, the pools or the landscaping. You own the right to occupy the space between a certain set of wall for a specified time.  Exchanging has never been guarenteed. Instead it's listed as an option and, I believe if you re-read your original papers, an option that can change almost any time. 

This is a problem with how timeshares are sold. We're not just sold on using the week we own. We're sold on the exchange system. The exchange system has always been and always will be a moving target.

You either own where you want to go or, own with the idea that you'll use a particular week for three to five years, sell it and jump to the next great thing for exchanging. 

Timesharing never stands still. It's a fluid product and it's going to keep changing. Several years down the road when Marriott decides to change this product, people will be complaining that they want the old points system back. Whatever is new won't be as good as the old DC points plan they had. After 12 years of timesharing the one thing I know is that tomorrow something else will change. It never stays the same.


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## windje2000 (Jul 9, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> You are so stuck on the points issue that you can't see the forrest for the tree's. You're failing to see the good points of the program that Marriott tossed in for legacy week owners. They could have cut weeks owners out completely or, they could have given us a balanced program where you were either in points or not in points. As it is, you can be in the DC and decide each year whether you want to trade in points or trade in weeks. I'm not certain there's another program out there that offers that twist on flexability.
> 
> I'll probably join but, I may never convert either of my weeks to points. I think the fear of other owners joining this program is about as irrational as the supersticions seen at a craps table in Vegas.
> 
> If you're waiting on the new points system to fail I fear you'll be waiting in vain. It's been three weeks and the program is already a success. After the first points were sold the program became permanent. The legal work has been done. The debts have been accumulated. Titles have already been transfered into the land trust. This puppy isn't going anywhere. If it fails it will bring down the entire Marriott system. Not just the DC but the entire timeshare system of Marriott. You had better hope they don't fail.



The more I thought about this new plan, the more I came to the realization that Marriott's first objective here is to sell written down inventory.  $700 million write-offs tend to get management attention.

Deeded product has not been selling, so they came up with the points system so they could sell the prospect of access to all the resorts.

That's not unlike an asset securitization, say for junk mortgages.  The supposed access to all the resorts for points buyers is like the AAA rating on junk mortgages.

So the sizzle they will try to sell is the prospect of inventory in 52 resorts to points buyers.  They get a talking point for new points sales by telling prospects how many deeded owners have signed up.  (Whether or not we exchange our weeks for points.)

If a robust and vibrant weeks exchange with existing priorities is preserved , I'm not sure there's downside to existing owners.  

Not ever exchanging your week for points is, practically speaking, the same as tombo's position to not join.  

You just get a break on fees.  For now.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

tombo said:


> I keep repeating myself because the pro points people keep repeating themselves. The only posts read are the most recent. To hope that people will read through 1000's of old posts is unrealistic.So unless you respond to positive posts with rebuttals showing the negatives, all TUGGERS will falsely appear to be for the new sysytem.
> 
> It is not futile. Marriott will not keep promoting points if the current owners do not convert in acceptable numbers and if sales to new customers are poor. It is pure profit to them, nothing more. If a lot of owners convert and sales of new customers are acceptable, yes points are here to stay. However if the sales and revenues from points are not acceptable they will fold the system.
> 
> ...



Tombo,

You are fighting a futile battle.  I am going to join and my weeks don't even get any points.  I will save money on annual fees as stated above.

And, I get the option of renting or trading points from other owners.

And, I will have access to all inventory Marriott makes available.  Whether or not the cost of that inventory is worth it, I will deal with on a case-by-case basis.

And, I will have access to all future features they make available such as a potential bonus time/open season/discounted points feature.

At $595/695, it's a no brainer.


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## RedDogSD (Jul 9, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> At $595/695, it's a no brainer.



I agree at that price point.  However, I think a much more careful analysis has to be done at the 1495/1995 price point.  The ROI is much longer using only the savings on II fees and until I see how the market for renting and using points shakes out, it is a gamble.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

RedDogSD said:


> I agree at that price point.  However, I think a much more careful analysis has to be done at the 1495/1995 price point.  The ROI is much longer using only the savings on II fees and until I see how the market for renting and using points shakes out, it is a gamble.



For me, the options value is worth the difference.  I bought my bronze weeks cheaply from Marriott.  So, I qualify for the lower rate.

I was going to join points anyway, but by looking for a cheap points resale.  Now, I can save that money and the maintenance fees on it.


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## tombo (Jul 9, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Tombo,
> 
> You are fighting a futile battle.  I am going to join and my weeks don't even get any points.  I will save money on annual fees as stated above.
> 
> ...





I am probably fighting a futile battle and I feel sure that I will sell. Not a problem. Exchanges were never guaranteed, but they were implied, promised, and a REALITY for decades. The access to trades is not changing on it's own, if it changes it changes because Marriott changed it. However I won't just say well Marriott screwed their current owners looking for future profits and there is nothing anyone can do about it. I will let others know the bad parts of the points program and kill any sale of points I can kill. Marriott said we are changing our focus from weeks owners to those who buy or convert to points. Good for them. I hope they lose billions on the new points program. Marriott forgot who brought them to the dance. I fortunatelly did not buy retail so the treatment rendered to my week is not at bad as those who bought retail ad were promised a LIFETIME of great exchanges, not just exchanges until the economy is bad and we change the system.

I would owe $1495 to convert, and that is a big deal compared to what I paid resale. I would not pay the extortion on principle even if I owned multiple weeks and even if I had purchased retail. 

Everything is subject to change. You are not guaranteed to be able to exchange or rent points from other owners. it is not guaranteed in writing that Marriott can never charge for exchnges. You are not guaranteed that the future features will be good features, the new features could be bad. Buying into a system that is not good today hoping it will get better is probably wishful thinking. I can't see buying into a POINTS system where most who are joining agree that the POINTS themselves aren't worth using. 

For those of us with 2 weeks or less the exchange savings aren't there, the points skim kills the points value, and the conversion fee is high if you bought resale, so no reason to convert. For some I understand the current savings,but the current advantages can be discontinued at any time  as more owners convert. If nough convert then Marriott has more leverage to exert for points members over weeks owners.  With the attitude of I am going to convert because whether I convert or not points is the future, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

It is not just Marriott who will treat all customers poorly if there is profit to be made, but I will complain anytime one of the companies treats me poorly and stop doing business with them. I just spent a week in a Hyatt Regency and they charged $13.95 a day for internet access. I took my computer , found out that after paying to stay at a Hyatt supposedly luxury resort that they do not provide the free wi fi access that burger King provides for a 99 cent Whopper Jr. My computer was never turned during my week's stay.  I asked for a manager and told them that it is sad that Motel 6 can somehow afford to give free internet access with a $50 room, but Hyatt can't provide the same amenity for over $200 a night. I told them I will only stay at hyatt's in the future if they are the cheapest or only hotel available for the dates I need. They gave me free breakfast vouchers which I used, but no free Wi-Fi. Did they change their policy? Nope. But if enough people complained rather than just paying for access or doing without would they offer free Wi-Fi? You bet they would if people stopped staying there. 




You have the right and ability to stop marriott and other big companies from treating you poorly if you don't lay down and let them. Will you win every battle? Nope, but if you refuse to fight you are assured defeat. I personally refuse to lay down.


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## RedDogSD (Jul 9, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Because some developers pay Interval a fee for those AC's. They use it as a sales tool to get people to buy. "This resort is in such high demand, Interval has to have your week so they'll give you an extra exchange week just so they can have it."
> 
> DRI does this in reverse if you look at the deals section with Interval. Book an exchange into a DRI resort during specified dates (usually shoulder or off season) and you'll get a AC. They do this to get timeshare owners into their resorts in hopes that a certain percentage will take the tour, see the benfit of owning with them and buy.
> 
> Why do I believe some resort pay for the AC's? Because Polo Towers, a nice but older resort, get's an AC but the newer, nicer Marriott right next to it does not. Marriott doesn't have to buy AC's from Interval to sell their timeshares.



Doug is right.  The AC's have more to do with developer negotiations than actual demand.  We got A/C's for our Hawaii location for 10 years, and then they stopped being automatic.  Now I have to find out if there are certain weeks they want and try to get one.  My Vegas week still gets it automatically even though the location is not nearly as much in demand as Hawaii.  It is purely because of the contract between the developer and II.  Some Marriott weeks are still getting them consistently, and some are not.  DSV I is an older resort, so they stopped giving them consistently.  You can always try to get one by talking to Interval about what they need and get it for them.  

If they are giving AC's for San Diego country estates for WINTER deposits (it is cold in Ramona in the winter), then it is a developer thing.  If they only give them for the warmer months, that would be demand based.  Southern Cal is high demand for April-Oct.


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## tombo (Jul 9, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> You either own where you want to go or, own with the idea that you'll use a particular week for three to five years, sell it and jump to the next great thing for exchanging.
> 
> Timesharing never stands still. It's a fluid product and it's going to keep changing.  After 12 years of timesharing the one thing I know is that tomorrow something else will change. It never stays the same.



Oh but it does stay the same if you don't buy floating weeks or points. 90% of my more than 20 timeshare weeks are FIXED weeks during times and at locations I actually like to use personally. Many of my resorts have swapped to points and try as they might the developers can't change my prime summer weeks, my guaranteed access to those weeks, or even in most cases my room number as long as I don't convert my deeded week to points. Nothing I have seen Marriott bring out in points is any different than the other resorts. Rather than a groundbreaking move marriott's points conversion program is more of a me too program.  

If/when I sell my Marriott week I will not buy anything but fixed deeded weeks if I ever feel inclined to buy any timeshare in the future. Fixed deeded weeks remain the same unless you let the developer trick you into giving it to them for some worthless monopoly points.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

tombo said:


> I am probably fighting a futile battle and I feel sure that I will sell. Not a problem. Exchanges were never guaranteed, but they were implied, promised, and a REALITY for decades. The access to trades is not changing on it's own, if it changes it changes because Marriott changed it. However I won't just say well Marriott screwed their current owners looking for future profits and there is nothing anyone can do about it. I will let others know the bad parts of the points program and kill any sale of points I can kill. Marriott said we are changing our focus from weeks owners to those who buy or convert to points. Good for them. I hope they lose billions on the new points program. Marriott forgot who brought them to the dance. I fortunatelly did not buy retail so the treatment rendered to my week is not at bad as those who bought retail ad were promised a LIFETIME of great exchanges, not just exchanges until the economy is bad and we change the system.
> 
> I would owe $1495 to convert, and that is a big deal compared to what I paid resale. I would not pay the extortion on principle even if I owned multiple weeks and even if I had purchased retail.
> 
> ...



I don't feel the companies are treating me unfairly.  I just expect them to act the way they do and I try to stay one step ahead of them.  They can skim as much as they want.  I will make my decisions expecting them to do that and I'll go to where I can get the best bang for my buck.

If you truly feel they way you do, I would just sell out all of my timeshares and move on to something else.  The whole system is corrupt in some way.  I mean the whole timesharing industry.

I know you like fixed weeks. Sure, why wouldn't you?  Prime fixed week owners have been subsidized by sub prime weeks owners since the beginning of timesharing.  You like the rules when they are in your favor.  But, once you lock that in, you get all indignant when it changes.

So, keep screaming your lungs off into the wind if it makes you happy.  I just think you are wasting your time.  But, it is yours to use anyway you like.


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## taffy19 (Jul 9, 2010)

tombo said:


> Oh but it does stay the same if you don't buy floating weeks or points. 90% of my more than 20 timeshare weeks are FIXED weeks during times and at locations I actually like to use personally. Many of my resorts have swapped to points and try as they might the developers can't change my prime summer weeks, my guaranteed access to those weeks, or even in most cases my room number as long as I don't convert my deeded week to points. Nothing I have seen Marriott bring out in points is any different than the other resorts. Rather than a groundbreaking move marriott's points conversion program is more of a me too program.
> 
> If/when I sell my Marriott week I will not buy anything but fixed deeded weeks if I ever feel inclined to buy any timeshare in the future. Fixed deeded weeks remain the same unless you let the developer trick you into giving it to them for some worthless monopoly points.


Boy, do I agree with you.  All our timeshares are fixed time/units too except at one resort. That one is hard enough to make reservations for but as long we still succeed we will keep it because it is our favorite place of all and it is half an hour away from home.


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## tombo (Jul 9, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> I
> I know you like fixed weeks. Sure, why wouldn't you?  Prime fixed week owners have been subsidized by sub prime weeks owners since the beginning of timesharing.  You like the rules when they are in your favor.  But, once you lock that in, you get all indignant when it changes.



I like what I buy to remain the SAME, not have it changed by the resort or developer on a whim or to make more sales or profit.

 I bought a floating week in the Marriott system where all but a few fixed weeks were floating weeks. I would like Marriott to continue operating the same system they sold, advertised, and operated under for decades. I bought a platinum season at a non lock-off resort which is not a popular location like Hawaii. That is what I bought. i do not expect my week to become able to be locked off because I didn't buy a lock-off. I don't expect my trading power to become equal to Hawaii owners in II. I have no problem with the fact that I usually can only trade my 2 bed room platinum week for a one bed Island view in Hawaii or Aruba because that is what I bought, a prime season in a non prime resort which does not have lock-off units. I payed lower resale price expecting lower trade value. I just want my week and Marriott's exchange sysytem to remain the same as when I bought it, nothing more.

When I buy a fixed week, I want it to remain fixed because that is what I purchased. The fact that other fixed week owners don't have prime fixed weeks is a moot point because I want them to continue to get what they bought too. If they bought a non prime week, that is what they should get each year, because it is what they purchased. However I don't want them to buy a feb beach week and suddenly be able to upgrade and have access to the summer fixed week I purchased because the developer has a clause in their contract allowing them to change the rules.

 If I bought points in a point system, I would like for it to remain points in perpetuity, not become weeks somewhere down the road. 

Weeks sold and implemented as weeks, points, or something else should remain as they were sold for the continuity of the program and to guarantee all who bought in the past will still have the same system to use in the future. 

To suggest that I only want things to remain the same if it benefits me is absurd and a low blow. I research before buying and I only  buy weeks/resorts/systems that I feel will work for me. If it changes it is not what I purchased and might very well become something I would not have purchased had I known it was going to change. Please find a single post where I made such an assertation that I only like it to remain the same if it benefits me or please stick to facts over your assumptions about my feelings.


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## Bear1980 (Jul 9, 2010)

tombo said:


> So DON"T JOIN!!!!!  I am not saying I am right on everything, but I am hopefully right on enough things to convince many people who read my posts to NOT CONVERT. Let this slap in the face of owners by Marriott to create a new revenue source die a miserable death. Don't join points allowing Marriott to change what they sold for over 2 decades just so they can make new sales. Don't let their scare tactics of future limited exchange access scare you. If 80% to 90% don't convert you will remain with plenty of access as you have in the past.
> 
> DVC is not converting to weeks (please don't say that a couple of resorts have a few fixed weeks for sale, they are NOT converting point owners to weeks). DVC is staying true to their customers and continuing with the POINTS program they sold all members, not trying something new since the economy is bad and their sales slowed.
> 
> ...



I like this post.  Best one yet!


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## dougp26364 (Jul 9, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> The more I thought about this new plan, the more I came to the realization that Marriott's first objective here is to sell written down inventory.  $700 million write-offs tend to get management attention.
> 
> Deeded product has not been selling, so they came up with the points system so they could sell the prospect of access to all the resorts.
> 
> ...



This whole project for Marriott is about sales, not legacy owners satisfaction. However legacy owners are an important part of referals and repeat sales (they already like the product). You have to toss the dog a bone when you make this change or the dog's going to bite back. We'll have to wait to see if the bone Marriott tossed it's 400,000 owners is enough. After spending nearly 3 weeks looking the plan over, I'd say it probably is. There are DEFINATELY things I don't like about the program. Skimming points is my biggest bone of contention. But there are twists on the flexiblity and, I can't argue with access to a corporate account and elimination of the ala carte pricing. Marriott has allowed me to join but, keep the benefits I'm accustimed to having, assuming that they get the online access for me to do my own searches when I'm wanting to exchange my lock-off weeks. 

Marriott HAD to come out with a points based internal reservation program to compete with the other major developers. Marriott is very late to this game. To be honest, I expected their program to mimick the successful programs already out there. I'm still not sure why they fealt the need to blaze a new path when there's a proven super highway they could have driven down.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 9, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Tombo,
> 
> You are fighting a futile battle.  I am going to join and my weeks don't even get any points.  I will save money on annual fees as stated above.
> 
> ...



At this point, the more I look at the program, the more I'm inclined to agree.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

Bear1980 said:


> I like this post.  Best one yet!



I take it you are anti-points.

The Marriott program will be successful.  It will be successful in making sales, in converting owners into exchange relationships and devaluing all ownerships.  It's just what all resort developers do.  

You can either to try to fight it, go along with it, or exit the game completely.

I'm not too worried about current owners.  I think there will always be tons of unconverted weeks into the point system.  That's just the way the history of weeks to points conversion programs have performed.

Screaming at the top of your lungs on a message board hoping to convert a meaningful number of owners one way or another is an exercise in futility and a total waste of time and energy.

I would just look at what the program offers and assess whether or not you see anything in it for you.

I do.  I'm converting.  And, I do so with eyes wide open knowing as much or more than most who read this message board.

For what it's worth, I think all 3 options are fine.  Pick one that suits you best and go forward with it and don't look back.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 9, 2010)

tombo said:


> I am probably fighting a futile battle and I feel sure that I will sell. Not a problem. Exchanges were never guaranteed, but they were implied, promised, and a REALITY for decades. The access to trades is not changing on it's own, if it changes it changes because Marriott changed it. However I won't just say well Marriott screwed their current owners looking for future profits and there is nothing anyone can do about it. I will let others know the bad parts of the points program and kill any sale of points I can kill. Marriott said we are changing our focus from weeks owners to those who buy or convert to points. Good for them. I hope they lose billions on the new points program. Marriott forgot who brought them to the dance. I fortunatelly did not buy retail so the treatment rendered to my week is not at bad as those who bought retail ad were promised a LIFETIME of great exchanges, not just exchanges until the economy is bad and we change the system.
> 
> I would owe $1495 to convert, and that is a big deal compared to what I paid resale. I would not pay the extortion on principle even if I owned multiple weeks and even if I had purchased retail.
> 
> ...



If you sell, I'm afraid you'll be cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you don't join, I doubt you'll see any major difference at the end of five years. If you do sell in this market you'll probably get soaked for a decent size loss. If you join, my bet is you'll find it's not quite as evil as you think it is. 

You're to hung up on the points. You don't have to ever convert any of your weeks to points. You can stay just like you are with the estimated 400,000 other Marriot owners and very likely won't ever seen the difference. 

Most people worry about things that will never happen. IMHO, that's what you're doing now.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 9, 2010)

tombo said:


> Oh but it does stay the same if you don't buy floating weeks or points. 90% of my more than 20 timeshare weeks are FIXED weeks during times and at locations I actually like to use personally. Many of my resorts have swapped to points and try as they might the developers can't change my prime summer weeks, my guaranteed access to those weeks, or even in most cases my room number as long as I don't convert my deeded week to points. Nothing I have seen Marriott bring out in points is any different than the other resorts. Rather than a groundbreaking move marriott's points conversion program is more of a me too program.
> 
> If/when I sell my Marriott week I will not buy anything but fixed deeded weeks if I ever feel inclined to buy any timeshare in the future. Fixed deeded weeks remain the same unless you let the developer trick you into giving it to them for some worthless monopoly points.



Sure there is. You can KEEP you fixed week when you join. You have to make the physical decision and notify Marriott each and every year you want to trade your week for DC points. It's just like with Marriott points. You week never automatically converts to Marriott Rewards points does it? Yet Marriott gives you that option. It's the same with the DC should you join. Your deeded week stays the same unless you call Marriott and tell them you want points this year. Next year, you still have your deeded week........unless YOU make the decision to request points.

You're missing one huge distinction. You can join the DC and keep you deeded fixed week exactly like it is. Marriott isn't even attempting to take that away from you.

Again I say, you are far to hung up on points to even look at the reality of this program. You saw the points chart and shut down. You need to take a deep breath and realize Marriott isn't trying to take anything away from you. They're only offering you another option.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

tombo said:


> To suggest that I only want things to remain the same if it benefits me is absurd and a low blow. I research before buying and I only  buy weeks/resorts/systems that I feel will work for me. If it changes it is not what I purchased and might very well become something I would not have purchased had I known it was going to change. Please find a single post where I made such an assertation that I only like it to remain the same if it benefits me or please stick to facts over your assumptions about my feelings.



It was meant to illustrate a point that you conveniently ignore.  Prime week owners are subsidized by sub prime week owners in a weeks based system.  That is patently unfair and always needed a future remedy at some point in time.  Of course, you don't agree with that point of view.  But, it is a valid one.  How convenient of you to not want to correct that injustice simply because the rules were set up as they were in the beginning.... wrongly.

In addition, had you done sufficient due diligence, you would have determined that part of the game of developers is to change the game whenever it is to their best advantage to do so.  They been doing it since the beginning of timesharing.  Whether you agree with it or not, it's just the way it is. So, you should have entered into your purchase criteria a risk factor that the game would change somehow not in your favor and build in some wiggle room to change your strategy and point of view for the system.
Well, that day has arrived.  So, it's not that the developer game has changed any.  It's the same.  The only difference is that its a game that you weren't playing and you finally realize it and it ticks you off.

So, I will say it once again.  You can either keep what you have, convert to points, or sell out.  All 3 options are valid ones.  Shouting out on message boards isn't going to change the ultimate outcome 1% either way.  It's doing to do what it's going to do.  You should as well.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 9, 2010)

tombo said:


> I like what I buy to remain the SAME, not have it changed by the resort or developer on a whim or to make more sales or profit.



Then what are you doing owning timeshare? Nothing stays the same in timesharing. We've owned since '98 and I've lost track of all the changes. I've gone over documents, rules and forms and timeshare is built to change. It's one of the best things about timeshare but it's also one of the most aggrivating things, all at the same time.

If you don't like change, I'd take Bocca's advise, sell out and just rent. The thing is, the rental game changes as well. Keep up or get left behind. The only thing constant in this life is change. If you have a cell phone compare it to the cell phones available 15 years ago. If you have a home with AC in it, compare it to a home from the '40's or '50's. Take a look at the car your driving. It probably costs more than the house you lived in during the '60's or even the 70's. 

Timeshare will ALWAYS change. You either change with it or......well, do like your doing now. Complain about the change.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Then what are you doing owning timeshare? Nothing stays the same in timesharing. We've owned since '98 and I've lost track of all the changes. I've gone over documents, rules and forms and timeshare is built to change. It's one of the best things about timeshare but it's also one of the most aggrivating things, all at the same time.
> 
> If you don't like change, I'd take Bocca's advise, sell out and just rent. The thing is, the rental game changes as well. Keep up or get left behind. The only thing constant in this life is change. If you have a cell phone compare it to the cell phones available 15 years ago. If you have a home with AC in it, compare it to a home from the '40's or '50's. Take a look at the car your driving. It probably costs more than the house you lived in during the '60's or even the 70's.
> 
> Timeshare will ALWAYS change. You either change with it or......well, do like your doing now. Complain about the change.



Wow.  I think we are in total agreement.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 9, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Wow.  I think we are in total agreement.



What can I say, it happens from time to time.


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## AwayWeGo (Jul 9, 2010)

*You Typed A Mouthful.*




dougp26364 said:


> Timeshare will ALWAYS change. You either change with it or......well, do like your doing now. Complain about the change.


I thought we were set for life on timeshares -- & we pretty much _are_ set, in that we don't want or need any more.

Yet things keep changing in the timeshare sphere, even for us, even though we have no Marriotts in our (pardon the expression) "portfolio" & thus we are not affected by all the recent kerfuffle over Marriott points, etc.

The Chief Of Staff thinks we should sell off 1 of my sentimental favorites, because we only rent it out & never go there except on _Last Call_ & _Instant Exchange_.  If she keeps working on me, I'll eventually come round.  (We'll see, eh?)

Our dinky points timeshare has become exorbitantly expensive for the paltry points allocation it gives us, so we're ready to deed it back to the resort -- & we already (as of last night) bought a replacement dinky points timeshare via eBay.

I'd rather not churn our timeshare holdings, but there's no sense standing pat when conditions change out there in the timeshare world. 

Nothing stays the same. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## dougp26364 (Jul 9, 2010)

AwayWeGo said:


> I thought we were set for life on timeshares -- & we pretty much _are_ set, in that we don't want or need any more.
> 
> Yet things keep changing in the timeshare sphere, even for us, even though we have no Marriotts in our (pardon the expression) "portfolio" & thus we are not affected by all the recent kerfuffle over Marriott points, etc.
> 
> ...



Unless you buying a timeshare for personal use, eventually you'll have to churn the portfolio. At the very least you'll need to find some way to change it to fit your needs. 

That's what happened with our Polo Towers ownerships. They were to the point where they were getting to expensive for the return they were providing. I was ready to dump them when DRI offered to buy them back. Then the crash came and the offer fell through. 

Next thing I know DRI has purchased Sunterra and they offered me access to their points program. What was old became new again and those two ownership gained new life. 

Our Marriott's we purchased to use and exchange within the Marriott system. I'm not happy about the points prospect but, the one fee vs ala carte pricing works for us. Our Marriott's hadn't become the burden that our Polo Towers units had become because we continue to use our Marriott weeks. This change really doesn't affect me all that much......for now. There are some advantages and, if nothing else, I probably need to position myself for the future. The cost to enroll is relatively small and should be recovered in ~3 years. Unless I uncover something I can't live with, we'll join on our next trip to our home resort in November.


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## tombo (Jul 9, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> If you sell, I'm afraid you'll be cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you don't join, I doubt you'll see any major difference at the end of five years. If you do sell in this market you'll probably get soaked for a decent size loss. If you join, my bet is you'll find it's not quite as evil as you think it is.
> 
> You're to hung up on the points. You don't have to ever convert any of your weeks to points. You can stay just like you are with the estimated 400,000 other Marriot owners and very likely won't ever seen the difference.
> 
> Most people worry about things that will never happen. IMHO, that's what you're doing now.



Points taking over a large per cent of marriott inventory in the long run and hurting weeks exchanges is a big concern. It might never happen, but being  complacent and assuming you have no control as an owner is surrendering to whatever marriott feels like doing IMO. Tell everyone at the pool, at the owner's meetings, tell everyone to not join and they might tell some more owners. There is no better or more effective way to inform others about the bad parts of a new program than word of mouth. Anyone who googles Marriott points will find TUG. Many will read and never post, but many might not join after reading the pitfalls. They will tell friends and family about the skim. It is the most effective way to tell the side of points that the salesmen will not tell.

Selling now is probably selling at the lowest point, so I agree that now is not the time. Also if weeks inventory does become limited due to points conversions and Marriott allocation of prime weeks to points instead of weeks, it will take a while to affect the majority of owners. 

So rather than sitting here hoping that the new program isn't bad for those who don't convert, I am proactivelly advocating that owners don't convert and giving many reasons why they shouldn't.  Most marriott owners do not own multiple weeks so exchange fee savings don't actually equal savings unless you own more than 2 weeks, and many will need to keep their own II acccount to trade non Marriott weeks they own and access extra vacations, so saving on II memberships will not be a savings for many either. 

Marriott has launched a POINTS program and you can hardly find one poster here on TUG who thinks the points are a good deal. Is that an advertisement for Marriott points or against Marriott points? Almost no one including you and Boca feel that actually depositing your week to exchange using points is a good idea. What kind of a points program is it when the best thing about the program is savings on exchange fees when you exchange your week through II?


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## taffy19 (Jul 9, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> It was meant to illustrate a point that you conveniently ignore. Prime week owners are subsidized by sub prime week owners in a weeks based system. That is patently unfair and always needed a future remedy at some point in time. Of course, you don't agree with that point of view. But, it is a valid one. How convenient of you to not want to correct that injustice simply because the rules were set up as they were in the beginning.... wrongly.
> 
> In addition, had you done sufficient due diligence, you would have determined that part of the game of developers is to change the game whenever it is to their best advantage to do so. They been doing it since the beginning of timesharing. Whether you agree with it or not, it's just the way it is. So, you should have entered into your purchase criteria a risk factor that the game would change somehow not in your favor and build in some wiggle room to change your strategy and point of view for the system.
> Well, that day has arrived. So, it's not that the developer game has changed any. It's the same. The only difference is that its a game that you weren't playing and you finally realize it and it ticks you off.
> ...


Jim, I mostly agree with you but not here. Prime fixed week/units were much more expensive to buy when they were first sold by the timeshare developers so you paid for it upfront. It wasn't given to you. They used to tell you that a blue, float week may give you a tiger trade one day but it was never guaranteed.

We paid dearly for our fixed week/unit at the MOC and now I can't even find a lock off unit when I searched II this morning. When you buy, they tell you how you can lock off your unit so you can stay twice as long for the same maintenance fees.

If there is no inventory in II, you almost have to enroll in the new program.  This is very unfair to the people who bought under the old plan. The inventory is with Marriott already and not with II. I agree with Tombo and DanCali that Marriott is fleecing their timeshare owners anyway they can. The new point system will guarantee that and if you do not enroll, your inventory for exchanges will dry up eventually or even sooner. That is one way to make you enroll. :annoyed:


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## taffy19 (Jul 9, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Sure there is. You can KEEP you fixed week when you join. You have to make the physical decision and notify Marriott each and every year you want to trade your week for DC points. It's just like with Marriott points. You week never automatically converts to Marriott Rewards points does it? Yet Marriott gives you that option. It's the same with the DC should you join. Your deeded week stays the same unless you call Marriott and tell them you want points this year. Next year, you still have your deeded week........unless YOU make the decision to request points.
> 
> You're missing one huge distinction. You can join the DC and keep you deeded fixed week exactly like it is. Marriott isn't even attempting to take that away from you.
> 
> Again I say, you are far to hung up on points to even look at the reality of this program. You saw the points chart and shut down. You need to take a deep breath and realize Marriott isn't trying to take anything away from you. They're only offering you another option.


Doug, I understand that you cannot do a request first so once you start the request for locking off your fixed week/condo, you have lost the whole condo. You will not get your fixed unit to use for either week. This is how I understand it and the same if you use points instead. A fixed unit is useless in the new program.


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## GregT (Jul 9, 2010)

iconnections said:


> Doug, I understand that you cannot do a request first so once you start the request for locking off your fixed week/condo, you have lost the whole condo. You will not get your fixed unit to use for either week. This is how I understand it and the same if you use points instead. A fixed unit is useless in the new program.



Emmy, I'm not following what's happening here?  I've routinely locked-off the studio from my fixed week and kept the 2BR piece for personal use in my same fixed week unit -- but I've then deposited the Studio and started searching with it (which does hit).  

Can you send me an email and describe the problem and I'll see if I can help?

All the best,

Greg


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## m61376 (Jul 9, 2010)

iconnections said:


> Doug, I understand that you cannot do a request first so once you start the request for locking off your fixed week/condo, you have lost the whole condo. You will not get your fixed unit to use for either week. This is how I understand it and the same if you use points instead. A fixed unit is useless in the new program.


My understanding that if you convert to points you have to convert the whole unit. However, whether in the program or not, you can still use your week, lock off and use one side and look for a trade in II, either with a request first or deposit first, of the lock off side. The only difference is now you don't have to pay the lock off fee or the trade if to another Marirott, in this case your home resort.

Very often there is no immediate inventory in II for a prime week. If you search often and early you will likely see them, or get it with an on-going search.

I really think Marriott, at least for now, is intent on not interfering with their legacy owner's exchanges. 

Something which I did not realize and was a bit surprised to hear- 50% of their business is generated from repeat customers- either from the customers themselves or from referrals. They want to keep us happy; they need to keep us happy. They are concerned about the negative publicity and are acutely aware that most of the posts here are limited to about 150 people, but that many people read without ever posting. There are a lot of things I don't like about the new program, but I do sense that Marriott will not overtly try to be underhanded by unfair reservation allotments, exerting undue influence with respect to II exchanges, etc. and that they will keep those commitments.


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## tombo (Jul 9, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Wow.  I think we are in total agreement.



I want to thank both you and Doug for posting 9 posts in a row, 7 of which were to inform me of the futility of posting repeatedly about things you can't change,  and one post was to explain to someone that agreed with one of my posts that they shouldn't fight it either, just simply accept it or sell. Gosh I feel special with al the attention.

I am just trying to make sure I understand things because it apparently takes repeated posts from multiple posters saying the identical thing for me to finally get it. So when I make posts against converting to points they are an act of futility, however when you two post nine times in a row as the Marriott points advocate tag team it is simply facts you both feel are worth hearing again, and again, and again? Just wanting to make sure I understand it.  Ok I think I got it now.

See I am such a newbie to timesharing and need so much wisdom to be imparted to me by nice posters like you who know soooo much more than me. I  have only owned over 30 different weeks at about 20 different resorts during the last 10 years and yet until you two came to my rescue I had no clue that things could change.  Thank you for telling me that ALL resorts/weeks/developers would change and I can either accept the changes, live with them and complain, or sell. I am so glad to know that my deeded  fixed weeks 26 and 27 both in room 505 are subject to change and that I better get ready because the last 10 years of usage was a fluke.  I sure thought I was guaranteed 4th of July week every year. Next year it might be changed to room 100 and room 400 for weeks 10 and 40. Gosh my deed says those weeks 26 and 27 are both mine but of course I know nothing. Thank you for enlightening me. My fixed week 22's in Aruba, Panama City,Destin, which are often Memorial day weeks are not for sure either. I am sooo upset that i didn't understand what I bought. :ignore: I guess my guaranteed summer weeks on the beach aren't guaranteed, my deeded units aren't actually mine, and there is nothing I can do but wait to see what change the timeshares developer will thrust on me next. 


All this time and all these weeks I bought and I somehow thought that timeshare resorts and timeshare salesmen were trustworthy, thrifty, and kind. Boy are my eyes now opened. Those people were trying to get one over on me. It is amazing that someone as uniformed and uneducated about the timeshare world as I was could somehow sit through so many timeshare presentations and yet was NEVER once be sold a retail week, or point, or sampler pkge. Whew was I lucky because it couldn't have been that I knew not to beleive them, not until tonight.

Now thanks to your posts I understand that even though I believed marriott to be a reputable company that was head and shoulders above most developers, that they are actually just as bad if not worse and I NEVER should have had any faith in them to watch out for owners or do what is morally right. I was stupid to expect them to do what is right and i should accept the lying, cheating, rule changing situation at marriott as simply the way they do business, just as all timeshare companies do. I think I am finally getting it now. You get screwed over by marriott and other resorts, but it is OK because you expected it? 

So now after finally giving me the V-8 moment where it finally sunk in that you both know that Marriott will screw owners any way they can to make a profit, you now tell me to convert to points and look forward to future changes. Really? You tell me things will change and the developers will  always come at you from new angles, but  go ahead and let them stick it to me and assume it will be for the best? You both admit the points are not a good deal, you both admit the skim makes it not worth actually depositing a week in points, you admit that the main reasons to convert are for savings on II fees and for hopes that future benefits MIGHT be beneficial to those who convert. This sage advice right now is to go with the new program which is bad so far hoping it will get better in the future.

Hmmm, maybe I am a little slower than I thought. I don't see why I should pay marriott extortion to join a points system where the points suck, where they get even more ability to change things with my loss of voting rights, where they can change points at any time for any reason, and still I should feel that it is worth joining and giving marriott more profit? Not a chance in Hell. 

You are both so jaded and so willing to accept that ALL timeshares will change things for their benefit. Perhaps I could help the two of you see that there are actually timeshare resorts where the developer is long gone, the HOA is totally composed of owners, places where MF's increase less than double digits each year,places where the mgt company can and will be fired if they don't maintain the resort for reasonable MF's, resorts where the rules haven't changed in decades, basically resorts you can trust. Since Marriott has proven themselves to not fit in the category of one you can trust, perhaps rather than saying "oh well" owners could tell sales reps and managers that they won't pay a dime for the crappy program Marriott is trying to force feed them. If more owners would raise hell like me rather than simply accept it or sell, then yes merriott would be forced to change. 


Now feel free to post 10 or 12 posts dissecting everything I posted to educate me further, because if I am supposed to simply roll over and take it when developers try to screw me over to make a profit, I must really must not understand timesharing at all.


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## Dave M (Jul 9, 2010)

*Moderator note*:
I am closing this thread. Recent posts don't relate to the original topic of this thread and the snide comments and personal attacks are in violation of the TUG BBS Be Courteous rule.

Those who continue to post in a manner not in keeping with the BBS Posting Rules can should expect that they will be suspended from posting. You may politely debate issues, but you may not attack other posters.

Dave M
BBS Moderator


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