# Updated Privileges Brochure



## Richelle (Feb 13, 2020)

There is not a ton of difference between old and new, but they did specify that Founders get 60% off last minute reservations as a “Rotating Benefit”. Old and new brochures attached. The new one is the attachment with only a single page. 



			https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_Privileges.pdf
		


View attachment CW_Privileges 2.pdfView attachment CW_Privileges.pdf


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## dgalati (Feb 13, 2020)

It would be nice to know how the rotating 60% Discount is going to work.


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## dgalati (Feb 13, 2020)

I have to assume when Wyndham discounts rooms to all non VIP owners they may let the 50% discount apply to the discounted rate? Today if rooms are discounted VIP owners only receive the 50% discount on normal points chart not on the discounted point rate..


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## 55plus (Feb 13, 2020)

After reading the wording in the attachments I believe we are in for more changes to VIP benefits in the next round of policy changes. One that stands out is the phase, 'Last Minute Discounts.' That is very vague and subjective statement. I expect to see a change to the 60 day discount window to less of a window based on the wording used.


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## cbyrne1174 (Feb 13, 2020)

They Kept Silver at 400,000, Gold at 700,000 and Platinum at 1M. Anything more than that was just ridiculous to PIC to VIP.


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## 55plus (Feb 13, 2020)

If I'm correct that VIP benefits are going to be weakened again in late 2020 policy change, my question to Wyndham is, what about those who buy into a VIP level between now and when the policy changes take effect? Hopefully I'm not correct benefits will be left alone.

And what happened to is Presidential Reserve? It's not mentioned in any of the material.


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## paxsarah (Feb 13, 2020)

55plus said:


> And what happened to is Presidential Reserve? It's not mentioned in any of the material.



PR isn’t a VIP level. It’s basically an overlay to VIP at this point and I don’t see why anything would change.


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## Eric B (Feb 13, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> They Kept Silver at 400,000, Gold at 700,000 and Platinum at 1M. Anything more than that was just ridiculous to PIC to VIP.



Actually, the new levels still have the higher points required.  They're listed lower on the sheet.


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## Manzana (Feb 13, 2020)

Curious to see what the Vacation sidekick is that says coming soon on another page of the hub.


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## Richelle (Feb 13, 2020)

Manzana said:


> Curious to see what the Vacation sidekick is that says coming soon on another page of the hub.



It’s Perks. I had the MyDeals app (the app for Wyndham perks) on my phone and got a pop up when I opened it.


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## HitchHiker71 (Feb 13, 2020)

dgalati said:


> It would be nice to know how the rotating 60% Discount is going to work.



It means that it will rotate on and off so that Wyndham can selectively control the overall cost of the VIP program. Founders will always have the same 50% discount that Legends has, but 60% windows will rotate in and out. This is what was discussed at the annual owners meeting last fall. Of course, everything is subject to change. 


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## Wolf&Sprite (Feb 14, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> PR isn’t a VIP level. It’s basically an overlay to VIP at this point and I don’t see why anything would change.



The new brochure does include PR as Founder level.


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## Richelle (Feb 14, 2020)

Wolf&Sprite said:


> The new brochure does include PR as Founder level.



It's saying that PR members will get Founders benefits.  PR minimum requirements are 1 million points.  Not the 1.4 million required for regular owners to be Founders.  It's just a clarification.  PR is not a VIP level like Silver, Gold, and Platinum, but they currently get Platinum benefits and will get Founders benefits, even if they do not have 1.4 million PR points.


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## WhiskeyJack (Feb 17, 2020)

Has anybody heard if existing VIP levels will be grandfathered in?  For example, somebody with exactly 1M VIP points today is Platinum, with 50% discount and 60 day upgrades.  Will that existing Platinum owner be downgraded to the Ambassador level, with 35% discount and 45 day upgrades, or will they be grandfathered into the Legend level?  Thanks


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## HitchHiker71 (Feb 17, 2020)

WhiskeyJack said:


> Has anybody heard if existing VIP levels will be grandfathered in? For example, somebody with exactly 1M VIP points today is Platinum, with 50% discount and 60 day upgrades. Will that existing Platinum owner be downgraded to the Ambassador level, with 35% discount and 45 day upgrades, or will they be grandfathered into the Legend level? Thanks



If you look at the brochure referenced at the start of this thread, it gives the answers to your question:






“Your new Privileges equivalent tier maintains your existent benefits that you know and love, including:”

The stacked columns clearly indicate that existing VIPS become Champion, VIPG become Ambassador, and VIPP become Legends. In other words - grandfathering will be honored. 


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## dgalati (Feb 17, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> If you look at the brochure referenced at the start of this thread, it gives the answers to your question:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Disclaimer: All programs subject to change!


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## WhiskeyJack (Feb 17, 2020)

Thank you for your reply.  I did see that sentence at the top of the brochure but guess i read it differently than you. What I read was Wyndham just telling us the new Privileges program will still have discounts, upgrades and unlimited housekeeping credits, just like the current program.  Otherwise they are not removing one of these three VIP benefits.  I did not read it to say your individual current discount % and upgrade window will stay the same as your current VIP level.  Thanks again.


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## dgalati (Feb 17, 2020)

WhiskeyJack said:


> Thank you for your reply.  I did see that sentence at the top of the brochure but guess i read it differently than you. What I read was Wyndham just telling us the new Privileges program will still have discounts, upgrades and unlimited housekeeping credits, just like the current program.  Otherwise they are not removing one of these three VIP benefits.  I did not read it to say your individual current discount % and upgrade window will stay the same as your current VIP level.  Thanks again.


As stated in the owners directory all subject to change.


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## Richelle (Feb 18, 2020)

dgalati said:


> As stated in the owners directory all subject to change.



The only thing that is consistent in this life, is that things will always change and we will all eventually leave this mortal realm. Everything else is subject to change.


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## 55plus (Feb 18, 2020)

dgalati said:


> As stated in the owners directory all subject to change.


I'd hate to be a new VIP owner/buyer today with specific benefits and find out those benefits have changed in late 2020, if in fact they do change.


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## HitchHiker71 (Feb 18, 2020)

55plus said:


> I'd hate to be a new VIP owner/buyer today with specific benefits and find out those benefits have changed in late 2020, if in fact they do change.



Every tiered membership program in existence that I’ve participated in is “subject to change” in the small print. From your airline frequent flier memberships all the way down to your warehouse (Costco) memberships - same verbiage is in place. It’s standard legal verbiage really - it shouldn’t surprise anyone. I poke fun at it too on occasion to be clear - so this isn’t me getting on my soapbox - just telling it like it is. 


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## Richelle (Feb 18, 2020)

55plus said:


> I'd hate to be a new VIP owner/buyer today with specific benefits and find out those benefits have changed in late 2020, if in fact they do change.



If someone didn’t read the fine print that says the program is subject to change, that’s on them. We should all know that the program is subject to change. It was written in the contract. This shouldn’t be a news flash to anyone. Until there is a reason to be concerned I’m not concerned. Nor am I going to try to make a mountain out of a mole hill over some legal jargon. I’m not sure why some insist on beating a dead horse, or trying to scare people. Leave it be, until there is more information. Otherwise you’re just wasting people’s time.


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## dgalati (Feb 18, 2020)

https://media1.tenor.com/images/4cde1190bfdbe320b32fdcd2f9e1782d/tenor.gif?itemid=3799565


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## 55plus (Feb 18, 2020)

My point is, the phase, 'Last Minute Discounts' in the new printed material is vauge. If someone in, let's say September, buys into a VIP level expecting point discounts within the two month mark and that changes to, let's say to 'within a one month' in November, I'd be pissed and would feel scammed and cheated. I'm just, saying...


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## Richelle (Feb 18, 2020)

55plus said:


> My point is, the phase, 'Last Minute Discounts' in the new printed material is vauge. If someone in, let's say September, buys into a VIP level expecting point discounts within the two month mark and that changes to, let's say to 'within a one month' in November, I'd be pissed and would feel scammed and cheated. I'm just, saying...



You might be, and that’s why you didn’t go VIP. If they read the fine print, they would know that could change. If that would have bothered them, they wouldn’t have bought in. If they didn’t read the fine print, then that’s on them.


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## 55plus (Feb 18, 2020)

Richelle said:


> You might be, and that’s why you didn’t go VIP. If they read the fine print, they would know that could change. If that would have bothered them, they wouldn’t have bought in. If they didn’t read the fine print, then that’s on them.


I am VIPP. It's was purchased in the mid '90s when points were new to the timeshare system and going for about $30/1000. It was Fairfield at the time.


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## Richelle (Feb 18, 2020)

55plus said:


> I am VIPP. It's was purchased in the mid '90s when points were new to the timeshare system and going for about $30/1000. It was Fairfield at the time.



Ok, but the comment read like you were saying if y ou were VIP. Not that you were. Either way it doesn’t matter. My point is still the same. I’m sure back in the Fairfield days, they had something similar regarding things being subject to change.


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## RedDragonofWales (Feb 19, 2020)

We checked into the Great Smokies last weekend and the parking pass attendant tried to get me to a sales presentation.  Part of his story was to educate me on the new privileges program that they were rolling out.  He mentioned that we had to opt in if we were to be part of the new program.  Not having a shred of interest in attending a presentation, I not so subtly refused.  Anyone hear of needing to 'opt in' with this new program or was this just a way to sell more points?


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## HitchHiker71 (Feb 20, 2020)

RedDragonofWales said:


> We checked into the Great Smokies last weekend and the parking pass attendant tried to get me to a sales presentation. Part of his story was to educate me on the new privileges program that they were rolling out. He mentioned that we had to opt in if we were to be part of the new program. Not having a shred of interest in attending a presentation, I not so subtly refused. Anyone hear of needing to 'opt in' with this new program or was this just a way to sell more points?



Typical BS to attempt to get you into a sales pitch...moving on...


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## Richelle (Feb 20, 2020)

RedDragonofWales said:


> We checked into the Great Smokies last weekend and the parking pass attendant tried to get me to a sales presentation. Part of his story was to educate me on the new privileges program that they were rolling out. He mentioned that we had to opt in if we were to be part of the new program. Not having a shred of interest in attending a presentation, I not so subtly refused. Anyone hear of needing to 'opt in' with this new program or was this just a way to sell more points?



At the Owners meeting in Austin, they said VIPs would be automatically enrolled. The attach slide from the presentation states that. Unfortunately, the word automatically got cut out but it says nothing about opting in.


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## Rolltydr (Feb 20, 2020)

RedDragonofWales said:


> We checked into the Great Smokies last weekend and the parking pass attendant tried to get me to a sales presentation.  Part of his story was to educate me on the new privileges program that they were rolling out.  He mentioned that we had to opt in if we were to be part of the new program.  Not having a shred of interest in attending a presentation, I not so subtly refused.  Anyone hear of needing to 'opt in' with this new program or was this just a way to sell more points?


Are you currently VIP? If not, technically, you would have to opt in by purchasing enough points to qualify.


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## epearsall (Jun 23, 2020)

Richelle said:


> It's saying that PR members will get Founders benefits.  PR minimum requirements are 1 million points.  Not the 1.4 million required for regular owners to be Founders.  It's just a clarification.  PR is not a VIP level like Silver, Gold, and Platinum, but they currently get Platinum benefits and will get Founders benefits, even if they do not have 1.4 million PR points.


We recently purchased an upgrade to 1.4 million points based on a lot of promises of what we could do with being a founders level owner.   We were disappointed that Founders will not be available until "late 2020," in spite of the sales presentation suggesting it would be January or Febuary, 2020.    I can find almost no details of the founders benefits.   We were sold that it would expand the cruise and air travel options to more cruiselines and that we could book MULTIPLE annual cruises with airfare with 1.4 million points.   That options does not exist with Platinum, only cruise was a week on Norweagan only with a week costing 1.35 million points and 254K each for airfare.  At this point we feel we have been hoodwinked, unless Founders turn out to be as sold to us.
Anyone have more info on Founders?


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## Eric B (Jun 23, 2020)

epearsall said:


> We recently purchased an upgrade to 1.4 million points based on a lot of promises of what we could do with being a founders level owner.   We were disappointed that Founders will not be available until "late 2020," in spite of the sales presentation suggesting it would be January or Febuary, 2020.    I can find almost no details of the founders benefits.   We were sold that it would expand the cruise and air travel options to more cruiselines and that we could book MULTIPLE annual cruises with airfare with 1.4 million points.   That options does not exist with Platinum, only cruise was a week on Norweagan only with a week costing 1.35 million points and 254K each for airfare.  At this point we feel we have been hoodwinked, unless Founders turn out to be as sold to us.
> Anyone have more info on Founders?



If you are within the recession period, you might want to strongly consider taking advantage of the opportunity.  In general I have observed that cruises and airfare are less expensive to buy with cash than they are with points; right now there are lots of discounted cruises available due to the COVID situation.  In any case, the privileges program has not yet been finalized; the current brochure for it is on the Wyndham sales hub at https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_Privileges.pdf.  They might include the ability to book multiple cruises, but I don't think they'll be as inexpensive as you've been lead to believe - the Plus Partners pamphlet athttps://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_PlusPartners_Brochure.pdf shows point costs for 7-day cruises around 720,000 and up.


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## Jan M. (Jun 23, 2020)

epearsall said:


> We recently purchased an upgrade to 1.4 million points based on a lot of promises of what we could do with being a founders level owner.   We were disappointed that Founders will not be available until "late 2020," in spite of the sales presentation suggesting it would be January or Febuary, 2020.    I can find almost no details of the founders benefits.   We were sold that it would expand the cruise and air travel options to more cruiselines and that we could book MULTIPLE annual cruises with airfare with 1.4 million points.   That options does not exist with Platinum, only cruise was a week on Norweagan only with a week costing 1.35 million points and 254K each for airfare.  At this point we feel we have been hoodwinked, unless Founders turn out to be as sold to us.
> Anyone have more info on Founders?



The Privileges benefits, if they've even been finalized at this time, haven't been announced yet. If you were already gold or platinum it wasn't a bad idea to buy enough points to be Founders when Privileges begins so don't be kicking yourself over it. Privileges was supposed to roll out in late 2020 and we haven't heard if Covid-19 will delay it.

You'll find the best deals on cruises on www.vacationstogo.com. Sign up for their emails. Using your Wyndham points for cruises, airfares, car rentals has always been a poor value and I'm not expecting that to change with Privileges. We live 20-25 minutes from the Pompano Beach resorts. You can fly into the Fort Lauderdale airport and stay at one of the resorts a night or two before or after a cruise. Doing that can sometimes save you a significant amount on your airfares.


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## Richelle (Jun 23, 2020)

Jan M. said:


> The Privileges benefits, if they've even been finalized at this time, haven't been announced yet. If you were already gold or platinum it wasn't a bad idea to buy enough points to be Founders when Privileges begins so don't be kicking yourself over it. Privileges was supposed to roll out in late 2020 and we haven't heard if Covid-19 will delay it.
> 
> You'll find the best deals on cruises on www.vacationstogo.com. Sign up for their emails. Using your Wyndham points for cruises, airfares, car rentals has always been a poor value and I'm not expecting that to change with Privileges. We live 20-25 minutes from the Pompano Beach resorts. You can fly into the Fort Lauderdale airport and stay at one of the resorts a night or two before or after a cruise. Doing that can sometimes save you a significant amount on your airfares.



The last time I spoke to Annie about this (a couple months ago), she said it wasn’t being delayed. A lot has changed since then, so who knows if that is still the case. I would imagine all sales sites would have to be operational before they announce it to give all sales people the chance to capitalize on it.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 23, 2020)

Richelle said:


> The last time I spoke to Annie about this (a couple months ago), she said it wasn’t being delayed. A lot has changed since then, so who knows if that is still the case. I would imagine all sales sites would have to be operational before they announce it to give all sales people the chance to capitalize on it.



I could see it going either direction.  I could actually see Privileges either not being delayed or perhaps even being accelerated in an effort to boost short term sales to existing VIP owners who would otherwise have to purchase an additional 100k points if they were to wait until later.  Given how miserable VOI sales must be right now, the line of logic does make some sense.  Especially given we've seen some indications that the short term focus will be selling to the existing ownership base.  I do wonder aloud though, if this is a saturated market already.  If they really want to boost up sales for the remainder of 2020 - I would offer up either resale conversions and/or additional PIC plus contracts (beyond the limit of two) temporarily.  I think some existing owners might consider a net new retail purchase in these cases.


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## 55plus (Jun 23, 2020)

epearsall said:


> We recently purchased an upgrade to 1.4 million points based on a lot of promises of what we could do with being a founders level owner.   We were disappointed that Founders will not be available until "late 2020," in spite of the sales presentation suggesting it would be January or Febuary, 2020.    I can find almost no details of the founders benefits.   We were sold that it would expand the cruise and air travel options to more cruiselines and that we could book MULTIPLE annual cruises with airfare with 1.4 million points.   That options does not exist with Platinum, only cruise was a week on Norweagan only with a week costing 1.35 million points and 254K each for airfare.  At this point we feel we have been hoodwinked, unless Founders turn out to be as sold to us.
> Anyone have more info on Founders?


I don't know old you are, but unless Wyndham decreases the benefits you'll come out a head if you use it and keep it long enough. We've been owners since the early '90s when points were new to the system and cheap, and we used the hell out of our ownership every year. Our VIP Platinum ownership has paid for itself over and over again. Yours will to if you use it correctly, maximize point discounts and upgrades, and not use it for cruises and airfare. Pay cash for those and you'll come out ahead. The key is the points discount. Turn your 1.4M points into 2.8M points if you plan a head and are flexible. Good luck and happy timesharing.


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## Rich2699 (Jun 23, 2020)

I was called by Wyndham yesterday with an offer that I'm considering.

I'm VIP-Platinum now with 1,162K points including a 70K PIC.  Three CWA deeds (126/154/476), Sapphire valley (154) and Flagstaff (182).
The offer is to buy 238K CWA points that are supposedly foreclosures which would put me at exactly 1.4M to be Founders.  Cost of just over $30K which is $126.70/1000.

He also wanted to redo everything except Sapphire into a single CWA contract.  The maint. fees for CWA are a little higher than Flagstaff.
Is there any benefit to consolidating into a single deed for all of the CWA points?  Any disadvantages?

Thanks in advance.  Rich


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## cbyrne1174 (Jun 23, 2020)

Cant you just add another 254,000 PIC points by buying a 63k CWA contract and a low MF 3 bedroom PIC? Doing it that route would have a lower buy in cost as well as MF.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 23, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Cant you just add another 254,000 PIC points by buying a 63k CWA contract and a low MF 3 bedroom PIC? Doing it that route would have a lower buy in cost as well as MF.



Agreed, he could pick up a 254k 3 bedroom PIC along with a small retail contract for 10k all in. A third of the cost of what they are proposing.

The only possible advantage I see in converting your CWS contracts to CWA is that you would gain ARP to the 70+ CWA resort inventory slots for all of your non-PIC points. Do you use the ARP at either of your CWS deeded resorts today? Do you use ARP at all and if so, would having more ARP accessible points be of any value to you?


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## dgalati (Jun 23, 2020)

Rich2699 said:


> I was called by Wyndham yesterday with an offer that I'm considering.
> 
> I'm VIP-Platinum now with 1,162K points including a 70K PIC.  Three CWA deeds (126/154/476), Sapphire valley (154) and Flagstaff (182).
> The offer is to buy 238K CWA points that are supposedly foreclosures which would put me at exactly 1.4M to be Founders.  Cost of just over $30K which is $126.70/1000.
> ...


Rich the deal stinks and nothing is a benefit to you.  Why add a high cost maintenance fee CWA ownership? It is a horrible deal compared a PIC or to buying into other resorts with lower maintenance fees! Unless you need APR at all resorts I would pass on this deal. You could rent from a VIP for less then paying maintenance fees compared to owning a low cost Grand Desert Deed and paying maintenance fees.


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## cbyrne1174 (Jun 23, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Rich the deal stinks and nothing is a benefit to you.  Why add a high cost maintenance fee CWA ownership? It is a horrible deal compared to other resorts with lower maintenance fees! Unless you need APR at all resorts I would pass on this deal. You could rent from a VIP for less then paying maintenance fees compared to a low cost Grand Desert Deeds maintenance fees.


Yea but it's a pain to find someone who will constantly rent to you for that low. Owning Grand Desert resale really is a pretty good rate. Most of the time I book when inventory is 35% off anyways. I pay on average around $60-70 a night.


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## dgalati (Jun 23, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Yea but it's a pain to find someone who will constantly rent to you for that low. Owning Grand Desert resale really is a pretty good rate. Most of the time I book when inventory is 35% off anyways. I pay on average around $60-70 a night.


I never had a problem renting for less then paying maintenance fees in the 60 day discount window. Owning a resale Grand Desert deed is a good backup if rentals are not available.


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## Richelle (Jun 24, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Agreed, he could pick up a 254k 3 bedroom PIC along with a small retail contract for 10k all in. A third of the cost of what they are proposing.
> 
> The only possible advantage I see in converting your CWS contracts to CWA is that you would gain ARP to the 70+ CWA resort inventory slots for all of your non-PIC points. Do you use the ARP at either of your CWS deeded resorts today?
> 
> ...



The problem with that is, they are verifying ownership with the resorts now, so you have to wait for the PIC transfer process to complete.  It varies by the resort on how long that will take.  One person, it took 5 months.  Luckily, that was before they started doing verifications soon after they buy.


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## Rich2699 (Jun 24, 2020)

Thanks for the replies.  The reason that I'm considering this is to get the Founders benefits.  I have enough points so have no need to rent any additional points.  They have only offered me foreclosed CWA deeds, no PIC option.  However, wouldn't another PIC only last for 5 years since I already have one?  Thus, wouldn't the Founders benefits be temporary?


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 24, 2020)

Rich2699 said:


> Thanks for the replies. The reason that I'm considering this is to get the Founders benefits. I have enough points so have no need to rent any additional points. They have only offered me foreclosed CWA deeds, no PIC option. However, wouldn't another PIC only last for 5 years since I already have one? Thus, wouldn't the Founders benefits be temporary?



PIC Plus along with a small developer purchase has no time limit. PIC Express has a five year term. The only way you would lose the points benefits from the PIC Plus contract is if the underlying weeks based timeshare with RCI integration was:

1. Acquired by Wyndham (in which case you could most likely convert the weeks based contract to Wyndham points anyways and stay intact overall at then current VIP level)
2. The non-Wyndham resort moves away from RCI 
3. The non-Wyndham resort converts all weeks based contracts to points based contracts 


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## Braindead (Jun 24, 2020)

Rich2699 said:


> Thanks for the replies.  The reason that I'm considering this is to get the Founders benefits.  I have enough points so have no need to rent any additional points.  They have only offered me foreclosed CWA deeds, no PIC option.  However, wouldn't another PIC only last for 5 years since I already have one?  Thus, wouldn't the Founders benefits be temporary?


You’ve been given excellent options to consider. At the end of the day do what is right for you & ignore some of the advice you’ve been given.

1. CWA Direct for $126 per 1k points is an excellent deal not a horrible deal as one advised.
2. A lot of us here have purchased CWA contract from telesales. Why? Price per 1k points. Some say go buy at a low MF resort. But you’ll pay a minimum of $160 per 1k points. It’ll take 17 years to break even on the additional cost. 
3. PICs are not for everyone. There’s cons to PIC for example your PIC could lose its qualification anytime. Yes it’s happened to some here as well.
4. Buy CWA from Wyndham & low MF resorts resell.
5. If dgalati had his way Wyndham would never make a sale & go down financially, leaving us with an ownership that you could no longer enjoy.

Ponder the excellent options & don’t feel bad making that horrible deal as one said. It just might be the right one for you!!!!


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## dgalati (Jun 24, 2020)

Rich2699 said:


> Thanks for the replies.  The reason that I'm considering this is to get the Founders benefits.  I have enough points so have no need to rent any additional points.  They have only offered me foreclosed CWA deeds, no PIC option.  However, wouldn't another PIC only last for 5 years since I already have one?  Thus, wouldn't the Founders benefits be temporary?


There are two PIC programs PIC Plus and Pic Express..@Richelle may have more information on what amount of developer points are required to be purchased when enrolling a PIC Plus or PIC Express.








						PIC Express Contract
					

Are you a Club Wyndham owner? Learn more about Personal Interval Choice Express, which allows members to enroll non-Club Wyndham timeshare weeks to be applied their VIP status.




					clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
				











						PIC Plus Contract
					

Are you a Club Wyndham owner? Learn more about Personal Interval Choice Plus, which allows members to enroll non-Club Wyndham timeshare weeks to be applied their VIP status.




					clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
				






buckor said:


> To answer your questions:
> 
> 1. Most resellers will tell you what exchange their TS exchanges with. If not, just ask them.
> 
> ...





Braindead said:


> I have enrolled in the PIC program this year.
> 
> I bought my PIC weeks this year resale. Your weeks can be resale Wyndham doesn't care. I was told and would recommend buying or using 2 three bedrooms. Buy RCI gold crown resorts at high demand times and you would want to use yourself.
> Always check and make sure the weeks you are buying qualify for the program before purchase.
> ...


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## Sandy VDH (Jun 24, 2020)

You are allowed 2 PIC contracts.  I have 2 PIC Plus.  PIC express is not worth doing, unless you only plan to own for 5 years and then dump contracts.

Although I have 2 PIC, I do not EVER deposit them for points, I have them to get VIPP status perks.


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## dgalati (Jun 24, 2020)

Sandy VDH said:


> You are allowed 2 PIC contracts.  I have 2 PIC Plus.  PIC express is not worth doing, unless you only plan to own for 5 years and then dump contracts.
> 
> Although I have 2 PIC, I do not EVER deposit them for points, I have them to get VIPP status perks.


On PIC Express is there a developer purchase required?


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## Sandy VDH (Jun 24, 2020)

dgalati said:


> On PIC Express is there a developer purchase required?


no idea.  Perhaps someone with PIC Express can chime in.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 24, 2020)

dgalati said:


> On PIC Express is there a developer purchase required?



No, neither requires a developer purchase. PIC Express can be added using a fee based approach. A PIC Plus contract can also be added using a fee based approach, it’s called “Limited Membership” however this limited version also expires after five years. PIC Plus, when combined with a qualifying developer purchase, has no time limit in comparison. 


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## Richelle (Aug 26, 2020)

New information on the benefits.  It specifically says existing VPs keep unlimited housekeeping credits but otherwise, housekeeping is missing from the list, so I assume that means new VIPs will not get it.  A telesales rep on Facebook confirmed that.  I am not sure about mid-week clean and tidy or quiet season upgrades in RCI.  I will have to ask about that.  Personally I do not use either, but I know they are important to some.  Anything else missing that's important to you?  I know there are others missing, but they may or may not be important too you.  I want to confirm that existing VIPs will keep those existing benefits that are important to you, and they are not being phased out. 

Good news, everyone gets at least one RARP.  Gold and Platinum get 3 and 4 respectively which is one more then they get now.  Founders get 5.


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## troy12n (Aug 26, 2020)

Unlimited housekeeping credits was one of the few tangible benefits of VIP... especially at the lower levels, seems like a boneheaded thing to remove


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## JerseyDeb (Aug 26, 2020)

I am disappointed to see that Silver no longer has the opportunity for early check-in at 2 subject to availability. I thought there would be no changes to existing VIP.


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## Eric B (Aug 26, 2020)

Not seeing a heck of a lot that would motivate me to move up the VIP food chain....


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## comicbookman (Aug 26, 2020)

JerseyDeb said:


> I am disappointed to see that Silver no longer has the opportunity for early check-in at 2 subject to availability. I thought there would be no changes to existing VIP.



That trick hasn't wroked very well in my experience.


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## Richelle (Aug 26, 2020)

JerseyDeb said:


> I am disappointed to see that Silver no longer has the opportunity for early check-in at 2 subject to availability. I thought there would be no changes to existing VIP.



As mentioned in my post, existing VIPs keep unlimited housekeeping credits.  It also says it in the brochure below the tier names on the first page.  Existing silver VIP still gets to check in early.  New ones do not.  Any changes you see are supposed to be for new VIPS after the new program launches in November sometime.


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## Richelle (Aug 26, 2020)

comicbookman said:


> That trick hasn't wroked very well in my experience.


I've always been able to check-in at 2.  My room is not always ready, but we can check-in.  They will hold our luggage for us if we decide to go out and do something while we wait.


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## Richelle (Aug 26, 2020)

Eric B said:


> Not seeing a heck of a lot that would motivate me to move up the VIP food chain....



Agreed.  Maybe Platinum who are close to Founders may want to, but that's it.  I'm sure the salespeople will have a way of spinning it to make it look like the best thing on the planet, and people will fall for it.


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## 55plus (Aug 26, 2020)

I received an email about the new VIP program. The benefits listed don't show unlimited housekeeping credits. Are we getting screwed?


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## Richelle (Aug 26, 2020)

55plus said:


> I received an email about the new VIP program. The benefits listed don't show unlimited housekeeping credits. Are we getting screwed?


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 26, 2020)

Eric B said:


> Not seeing a heck of a lot that would motivate me to move up the VIP food chain....



From what I’ve ascertained Wyndham basically dropped back and punted. 

Any additional VIP program changes under consideration were dumped/delayed due to covid-19 and the generally uncertain business and economic climates particularly within the travel and leisure sectors for the foreseeable future.

Any potential cost increases associated with additional VIP benefits were therefore dismissed - both for Wyndham and for the owner based program fees. 


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## kaljor (Aug 27, 2020)

Even though I'm a resale only owner, I've had pretty good success checking in early.  I don't count on it or plan to arrive early deliberately, but I do always try to leave a big time buffer when I travel and sometimes I get to my Wyndham early.  I don't remember if I ever got in at 2PM, but I think I did once.  Most of the time when I get there an hour early or so, they have had a room ready for me. 

You can't count on it, but I can only remember once when I had to wait until 4 or a bit after.  So it's not all that valuable a benefit.


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## jwalk03 (Aug 27, 2020)

I have checked in early many times.  It just depends if your unit is ready or not.   (I am sure since its a VIP benefit they try to make sure the units that are reserved by VIPS are ready first if possible.) Heck I arrived at Panama City at 930am one time (after driving overnight so my kids would sleep) and they had a unit ready and let me check-in at 930AM!!


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## comicbookman (Aug 28, 2020)

jwalk03 said:


> I have checked in early many times.  It just depends if your unit is ready or not.   (I am sure since its a VIP benefit they try to make sure the units that are reserved by VIPS are ready first if possible.) Heck I arrived at Panama City at 930am one time (after driving overnight so my kids would sleep) and they had a unit ready and let me check-in at 930AM!!


It maybe resort dependant.  we most often go to Natl Harbour an get large units.  They are rarely ready early.  We are VIPP


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## Hiram357 (Aug 29, 2020)

Haven't seen anyone comment that everyone gets their various points discount at 60 days.  This is a loss of benefit to those of us that had the 60 day point discount before lower point VIPs at 45 or 30 days.


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## vv813 (Aug 29, 2020)

totally misssed what Hiram357 has referred to.  Even though people are getting a discount in that 60 day period more people will be competing for reservations


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## Manzana (Aug 29, 2020)

Hiram357 said:


> Haven't seen anyone comment that everyone gets their various points discount at 60 days.  This is a loss of benefit to those of us that had the 60 day point discount before lower point VIPs at 45 or 30 days.


The discount was always at 60 days it was the upgrades that came in at 60, 45, 30 days.  So I see no change in that.


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## Eric B (Aug 29, 2020)

Manzana said:


> The discount was always at 60 days it was the upgrades that came in at 60, 45, 30 days.  So I see no change in that.



That has been my understanding and experience as well.


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## Hiram357 (Aug 29, 2020)

My bad... I've been Platinum for a long time and didn't notice the change.  I don't have my old Fairfield Members Directory, but I recall silver and gold used to be at 30 and 45 days for the discount.


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## Richelle (Sep 1, 2020)

Hiram357 said:


> My bad... I've been Platinum for a long time and didn't notice the change. I don't have my old Fairfield Members Directory, but I recall silver and gold used to be at 30 and 45 days for the discount.



It hasn’t been Fairfield in about 13 or 14 years. I don’t think anyone has that directory anymore. I would be interested in seeing it if they do.


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## 55plus (Sep 1, 2020)

Richelle said:


> It hasn’t been Fairfield in about 13 or 14 years. I don’t think anyone has that directory anymore. I would be interested in seeing it if they do.


I do. I think I have all of them (Fairfield and Wyndham) somewhere going back 30 years. I’m not a packrat or hoarder, I just don’t trust developers and want a printed record of their policies so when they change something I’ll know. What do you need to know?


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## troy12n (Sep 1, 2020)

Hiram357 said:


> Haven't seen anyone comment that everyone gets their various points discount at 60 days.  This is a loss of benefit to those of us that had the 60 day point discount before lower point VIPs at 45 or 30 days.



Heaven forbid they throw a bone to lower level VIP's... 

But I think it has already been 60 days for a while


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## Jan M. (Sep 2, 2020)

55plus said:


> I do. I think I have all of them (Fairfield and Wyndham) somewhere going back 30 years. I’m not a packrat or hoarder, I just don’t trust developers and want a printed record of their policies so when they change something I’ll know. What do you need to know?



A few years ago I got rid of all our old directories and have regretted doing that so many times. 

It would be really interesting to quite a few of us to see the history of how the VIP program benefits have changed over the years.  We've only owned for 18 years and have seen a lot of changes to the program. I don't even know how far back the VIP program goes. Was there a VIP program back when you first bought?


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## Richelle (Sep 2, 2020)

55plus said:


> I do. I think I have all of them (Fairfield and Wyndham) somewhere going back 30 years. I’m not a packrat or hoarder, I just don’t trust developers and want a printed record of their policies so when they change something I’ll know. What do you need to know?



First, is there anyway you can think of to get them digitized? I would love to have digital copies for reference. Secondly, have the VIP benefits. It was mentioned above that the discount window wasn’t always 60 for all tiers. Is that true?


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## Richelle (Sep 2, 2020)

troy12n said:


> Heaven forbid they throw a bone to lower level VIP's...
> 
> But I think it has already been 60 days for a while



They are giving them two RARP to Silver and one to Bronze. That benefit was previously reserved for Gold and Platinum VIP.


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## 55plus (Sep 2, 2020)

Without going through all the directories, I recall Wyndham taking away unlimited guest confirmations for VIPP. VIP benefits have been around since we became owners about 30 years ago.


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## 55plus (Sep 2, 2020)

Richelle said:


> First, is there anyway you can think of to get them digitized? I would love to have digital copies for reference. Secondly, have the VIP benefits. It was mentioned above that the discount window wasn’t always 60 for all tiers. Is that true?


The only way would be to scan each page. From what I see, all VIP level discounts were at 60 days. Unit upgrades varied.


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## Richelle (Sep 2, 2020)

Hiram357 said:


> My bad... I've been Platinum for a long time and didn't notice the change. I don't have my old Fairfield Members Directory, but I recall silver and gold used to be at 30 and 45 days for the discount.



@55plus has directories dating back 30 years. Discounts have always been 60 days for all levels. It’s always been the upgrade window that varied.


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## Richelle (Sep 30, 2020)

I sent a bunch of questions about the new program to the VP of Owner and Club Services, Annie Roberts.  She is going to put @HitchHiker71 and I in touch with someone to answer those questions, next week.  I wanted to know if you guys had questions you wanted to ask regarding the new VIP program or wanted to provide feedback.   These were the questions I originally posed to her:


_1. Why was Gold left out of the RCI auto deposit? With unlimited reservation transaction credits, we couldn’t figure out why Gold might not be included. Is there any way we can request it get included?

2. What happens if (new) VIP owners don't have enough housekeeping credits when they are auto deposited in RCI? Are they charged for them when the RCI booking made, like they are when they make a Club Wyndham reservation?

3. We see where it says that existing owners will keep the benefits they "know and love". Does that include:

a. early check-in for Silver

b. Quiet season upgrades in RCI

c. midweek clean and tidy



4. Do you think there be new benefits added in the next year or two?

5. If someone who is currently VIP advances their status after the launch, will they lose their grandfathered benefits such as unlimited housekeeping?

6. If a VIP buys points after the launch, but they don’t get to the next level, will they lose their grandfather status? We’ve seen reports where grandfathered VIPs would lose their status when they bought more points, because they didn’t meet that current point level requirements. For example, a Gold owner with 500k points buys 105,000 points. That gives them 605,000 points which is less than the current 700k. Their status would be dropped to Silver instead of retaining Gold. Will that happen still?_

If you have anything you want me to add to the list, let me know.  Otherwise, I will report back when I have answers.


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## 55plus (Oct 1, 2020)

All good questions. Thanks for scrutinizing the new program.


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## Silverdollar (Oct 1, 2020)

Richelle said:


> I sent a bunch of questions about the new program to the VP of Owner and Club Services, Annie Roberts.  She is going to put @HitchHiker71 and I in touch with someone to answer those questions, next week.  I wanted to know if you guys had questions you wanted to ask regarding the new VIP program or wanted to provide feedback.   These were the questions I originally posed to her:
> 
> 
> _1. Why was Gold left out of the RCI auto deposit? With unlimited reservation transaction credits, we couldn’t figure out why Gold might not be included. Is there any way we can request it get included?
> ...


I have a question that could affect a lot VIP owners with PIC Plus. What happens if their PIC weeks are disqualified because they no longer meet the guidelines? For example, what if an owner is VIP Platinum with two PICs, but only have 750k developer points. Would they drop down from VIPP to VIPS, or could they purchase new qualifying PICs, and still be grandfathered at VIPP?


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## Richelle (Oct 1, 2020)

Silverdollar said:


> I have a question that could affect a lot VIP owners with PIC Plus. What happens if their PIC weeks are disqualified because they no longer meet the guidelines? For example, what if an owner is VIP Platinum with two PICs, but only have 750k developer points. Would they drop down from VIPP to VIPS, or could they purchase new qualifying PICs, and still be grandfathered at VIPP?


 If a week becomes ineligible, you would lose that contract and be dropped down.  The only time I've heard this happens is when a resort sold itself to Wyndham or a non-eligible system like Diamond or Bluegreen.  The resorts have owners meetings regarding things like that, so always keep an eye out for mailing from your PIC resort.  If they fall below a certain quality threshold, they could lose their affiliation, but I have not heard that happen.  You can enroll a new PIC, but you would likely have to make a new purchase.


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## Worker (Oct 3, 2020)

Silverdollar said:


> I have a question that could affect a lot VIP owners with PIC Plus. What happens if their PIC weeks are disqualified because they no longer meet the guidelines? For example, what if an owner is VIP Platinum with two PICs, but only have 750k developer points. Would they drop down from VIPP to VIPS, or could they purchase new qualifying PICs, and still be grandfathered at VIPP?



1) I am in process of inheriting a VIP Platinum PIC Plus account, from parents who have passed away.

2) Currently my sibling is listed on Wyndham portal as Executor. 

3) Currently we are recording Deeds to be in my name, Wyndham Kingsgate and Massanutten.

4) I will be making small Wyndham purchase to reactivate PIC Plus points.

5) Will I still have Platinum status? Does all this need to be completed before Nov. ?


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## Richelle (Oct 3, 2020)

Worker said:


> 1) I am in process of inheriting a VIP Platinum PIC Plus account, from parents who have passed away.
> 
> 2) Currently my sibling is listed on Wyndham portal as Executor.
> 
> ...



If you won’t have 1.1 million points after all that is done, it will have to be completed before November. If you will, you don’t have to worry about it. Since you’ll have to buy 49,000 points PER PIC week, you might be close to that 1.1 million. The new point requirement is 1.1 million points when the changes take effect. Are you using Wyndham Tribute to do the transfer?


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## Worker (Oct 4, 2020)

Won't have 1.1 million points. Currently, 746K points Wyndham Kingsgate and 254K points PIC Plus Massanutten.

Will call Tribute on Monday.


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## Worker (Oct 4, 2020)

Richelle said:


> If you won’t have 1.1 million points after all that is done, it will have to be completed before November. If you will, you don’t have to worry about it. Since you’ll have to buy 49,000 points PER PIC week, you might be close to that 1.1 million. The new point requirement is 1.1 million points when the changes take effect. Are you using Wyndham Tribute to do the transfer?



Won't have 1.1 million points, will have 1 million points. Currently, 746K points Wyndham Kingsgate and 254K points PIC Plus Massanutten.

Will call Tribute on Monday.


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## Richelle (Oct 4, 2020)

Worker said:


> Won't have 1.1 million points, will have 1 million points. Currently, 746K points Wyndham Kingsgate and 254K points PIC Plus Massanutten.
> 
> Will call Tribute on Monday.



PIC enrollments will not transfer but VIP will if you use tribute. You’ll still need to make that purchase to enroll the PIC and be Platinum. If you don’t make it in time, you’ll have to purchase 100,000 points to keep Platinum, however, if you don’t, you’ll still be Gold. The points sale and PIC enrollment itself won’t take long. It’s the ownership change of the timeshare that could take time. How long have you been doing this process?


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## Richelle (Nov 9, 2020)

Here are some answers to the questions I got on Facebook.  These answers came from one of the product developers and her manager.  We have another meeting scheduled.  Regarding the quiet season upgrade, I saw someone say on here that it was not utilized a lot because people didn't know how to utilize it.  I agree, so I emailed them with that feedback.  That's part of what we will discuss at our next meeting. I also heard a rumor they were going to give early check-in back to Silver owners, but that might be someone's wishful thinking.  


*Q. When is the release date for VIP by Wyndham?*

A. November 12th is the official launch date. The last day to purchase points to become VIP or advance your current VIP status under today’s rules is November 10th.  After that, if you want to advance your status or become VIP, you must buy enough points to reach the new level requirements.  For example, if you want to be Silver, you must have 500k points (if you want to be grandfathered into current VIP silver, you are only required to have 400k points by Nov 10th).    If you are not VIP and become VIP November 11th or later, you will not have unlimited housekeeping.  On November 11th, the website will go down so it can be updated.  The new benefits will start on November 12th. 



*Q. Why was gold left out of the RCI auto deposit benefit?  *

A. They felt they had to draw the line at Platinum and above for this benefit.  They may reconsider giving this benefit to Gold members later.



*Q. We see where it says that existing owners will keep the benefits, they "know and love". Does that include:*

a. early check-in for Silver

b. Quiet season upgrades in RCI

c. midweek clean and tidy



A. They will not be giving early check in for Silver owners, even if you are currently a Silver VIP.  Their reasoning is because they were seeing that the VIP line was getting long when the regular line was not.  They wanted to reduce the long line for VIP check in.  They are still working on finding a benefit to replace early check-in for Silver owners.  I suggested late check out.  She said that with the COVID cleaning measures, that might not be possible.  I also suggested the authorized user list.  That list would allow non-owners to book a reservation in their name without using a guest certificate.  So, let’s say you have parents that like to travel.  If they are on the authorized user list, you would choose their name from a drop-down box like you do with your bookings now.  No guest certificate needed. She said that was something they were already considering for the future.

B. They are doing away with quiet season upgrades in RCI.  They said it was not a benefit that was used a lot.  There were some that wanted to keep it, but it was eventually decided that it was a benefit that should be retired. 

C. Mid-week clean and Tidy will not be coming back anytime soon, if at all, due to the increased measures they must take to clean the room. 

* 

Q. Do you think they will add benefits in the next year or two?*



A. Possibly.  They are always looking for ways to improve the benefits.  I get the impression they do not want to wait another 15 years to update the benefits. 



*Q. If someone buys points to advance their status after the launch, will they lose their grandfathered benefits, such as unlimited housekeeping?  *

A. No.  They said they learned their lesson from the past where owners who bought points would lose their grandfather status if their total points did not get them to the new point requirements.  VIPs will not lose unlimited housekeeping if they advance their status or just buy more points.



*Q.  If I transfer my timeshare to my children, will they keep the grandfathered benefits such as unlimited housekeeping?*

A.  Yes.  If you transfer your timeshare to an immediate relative through Tribute, the grandfathered status and benefits will travel with it, to the new owner. "Immediate relative" is described on page 240 of the directory; which includes: Parents, spouses, domestic partners, sibling, children, and grandchildren.



*Q.  If someone buys points, but does not meet the new requirement level, will they lose their grandfather status?  For example, if a 300k point silver owner buys 105k points, will they lose their silver status because they do not have 500k points?*

A. No, they will not lose their status.  They keep their VIP grandfather status even if they do not have 500k points.  So, if you want to inch up to a new level, but don't want to buy all those points at once, you can do that without losing your status. 

* 

Q. What are examples of rotating benefits?*



A. Club pass reservation points discounts, all-inclusive vacations that you can buy with points (and not have to pay the all-inclusive fee), Vacation packages that you can buy with points (Similar to Wyndham adventures, except it's exclusive to VIP owners).



*Q. Can you confirm that owners who currently have Grandfather VIP status, will keep their status after the new launch?*



A. I did confirm that ALL VIPs will keep their status, including current grandfathered VIPs.



*Q. Will grandfather VIPs get all the new benefits.*



A. Yes, I confirmed they will get everything that is offered for their level in the new program.



*Q. If there are new benefits added in the future, will current grandfathered VIPs get those as well.*

A.  That is the plan.



*Q. Will adding a resale contract cause me to lose my grandfather status.*

A. No, it will not.  You will keep the grandfather status if you add a resale contract.  Like it is today, resale will not count towards VIP status, and will not elevate you to the next level.



*Q. When are we getting a new directory?*

A. There will be a supplement released on November 12th.  For those of you not familiar with what a supplement is, it is sort of like an amendment to a contract.  The last supplement was only a few pages and it focused only on the changes.  A completely new directory that will include the updated changes is due out June 1st of next year. 



*Q. Are they keeping the term “Grandfathered” or will it be changed to something else?*

A. They have discussed changing it for various reasons but have not settled on what term they would use.  One possibility was “Legacy”.


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 9, 2020)

Thanks, Richelle!

My 2 cents on a few items:

1) It doesn't matter to me personally, but I don't understand not allowing early checkin for silver.  To me in reality, anyone can pre-register, and we get in when the room is ready - could be noon, could be 5 or 6pm.    As platinum, if you give silver late checkout, I want it, too.  I don't see how an authorized user list relates to early checkin. Apples and oranges. Kind of cool benefit. But I wouldn't confuse it with early checkin.  I would assume all VIP levels would get it (so not really a replacement item for silver only).

2) Rotating benefits seem silly to me. I don't understand why they'd bother. Marketing ploy type stuff?

3) We all know what grandfathered means, why would we change it to another name?

Keep things simple - seems like a lot of overthinking and making things unnecessarily complicated.


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## chapjim (Nov 9, 2020)

Why do I care whether I'm checked in at the VIP counter or the other counter?

If I'm at the grocery store and there's a regular line open, I'm not going to stand in the line for 10 Items or Less.

A nice bennie for VIPP would be to allow overlapping reservations (with some limits).


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## Eric B (Nov 9, 2020)

Sandi Bo said:


> .... We all know what grandfathered means, why would we change it to another name?
> 
> Keep things simple - seems like a lot of overthinking and making things unnecessarily complicated.



... maybe it's part of their battle against ageism....


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## Richelle (Nov 9, 2020)

chapjim said:


> Why do I care whether I'm checked in at the VIP counter or the other counter?
> 
> If I'm at the grocery store and there's a regular line open, I'm not going to stand in the line for 10 Items or Less.
> 
> A nice bennie for VIPP would be to allow overlapping reservations (with some limits).


I was surprised at how many Silver VIP people were unhappy that was being taken away from them.  Maybe it's about principle for them.


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## Richelle (Nov 9, 2020)

Sandi Bo said:


> Thanks, Richelle!
> 
> My 2 cents on a few items:
> 
> ...




1. I didn't see a big loss here either  If they have the room ready, they are not going to deny them check-in.  If a silver member uses the VIP line, I don't think they are going to turn them away anyway.  I mentioned late check out would be a good replacement but I didn't mean just for silver.  I think the higher tiers would be pretty upset if Silver was the only one that got that.  I think that it would make silver owners a little less upset that they lost early check-in because late checkout is more useful in my opinion.  

The friends and family list isn't meant to relate to early check-in.  Again, a replacement benefit.  Take away one benefit, give them another that is hopefully better.  We mentioned friends and family list because it seemed kind of silly to use a guest certificate for your son or daughter.  Plus, silver and bronze have less GC.  They would value this option more than someone with 15 or more.

2.  Right now they don't have all-inclusive options that can be bought with just points.  You always had to pay an all-inclusive fee.  That said, I have no doubt the cash value of that package will be cheaper than the maintenance fees on those points they used.  Still, it's an additional option.  I think there may have been people asking for discounted Club Pass fees.  I've seen it mentioned more than once on Facebook groups.  Those were just a couple of examples they gave.  They may come up with better options later.

3.  Apparently "grandfatherED" has a negative connotation?  A lot of the stuff they do is based on feedback.  If we had more people leaving feedback, they might come up with better ideas.


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## Eric B (Nov 9, 2020)

Richelle said:


> 3.  Apparently "grandfatherED" has a negative connotation?  A lot of the stuff they do is based on feedback.  If we had more people leaving feedback, they might come up with better ideas.



I still think ageism is a more apt negative connotation than ED, though I suppose it could be that.


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## Richelle (Nov 9, 2020)

Alexa just told me a joke.  

How many developers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?  They actually prefer dark mode.


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## GRapuser (Nov 9, 2020)

"Grandfathered" is a term that is derived from slavery, or more specifically, "the grandfather clause" was a term that referred to who was eligible to vote in the 1800's based upon whether one's grandfather was able to vote. That is why the term is being phased out in many places.


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## kaljor (Nov 9, 2020)

Richelle said:


> I was surprised at how many Silver VIP people were unhappy that was being taken away from them.  Maybe it's about principle for them.



I think it's just human nature to not want to lose something arbitrarily, even if you rarely need it or use it.  From my experience, if your room is ready early, they give it to you early.  I almost always arrive earlier than 4PM and most of those times I'm able to check in even though I'm not a VIP.  Of course that was before Covid and the possibility that cleaning procedures take longer.


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## Rolltydr (Nov 10, 2020)

Richelle said:


> I was surprised at how many Silver VIP people were unhappy that was being taken away from them.  Maybe it's about principle for them.


I’m Silver VIP and I don’t like it. We usually try to checkin during that 2-4pm window. Of course, I have seen times when the VIP line was longer than the regular checkin line. And, like you said, I doubt they will refuse to check you in if you’re in that line.

I guess the thing that ticks me off is, I believe they used the words “more and better benefits”. For Silver VIP members, where are they?


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## Richelle (Nov 10, 2020)

Rolltydr said:


> I’m Silver VIP and I don’t like it. We usually try to checkin during that 2-4pm window. Of course, I have seen times when the VIP line was longer than the regular checkin line. And, like you said, I doubt they will refuse to check you in if you’re in that line.
> 
> I guess the thing that ticks me off is, I believe they used the words “more and better benefits”. For Silver VIP members, where are they?



There were a few benefits that were added, but the biggest benefit to Silver members is the addition of RARP.  This benefit was previously reserved for only Gold and Platinum members.  If you want to book a larger room during prime season, you will want to use this benefit.  For example, I used it to book the last four-bedroom presidential at Great Smokies lodge over 4th of July week.  RARP allows you to book outside your home resort(s) at the 11-month mark instead of having to wait until the 10-month mark.  You can book both deeded or CWA inventory at 11 months.  Non-VIP have to wait until the 10-month mark to have access to both.  This benefit will be especially helpful over the next few years because availability is going to be tighter than normal.  So while you might have previously been able to wait until 10 months from check in to book that 4 bedroom presidential, you might not be able to now because you will have more competition for that larger room at the 10-month mark.  People have points to burn, so they are going to try and book larger and/or more rooms.  The catch to this benefit is that not every resort participates.  Most Club Wyndham ones do, but some don't.  Resorts where VIP benefits do not apply, do not participate in RARP.  The other catch is you can only use that benefit a certain number of times per year.  In the case of Silver, that's twice a year.  If you cancel the RARP reservation, you don't get that RARP benefit back.


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## Rolltydr (Nov 10, 2020)

Richelle said:


> There were a few benefits that were added, but the biggest benefit to Silver members is the addition of RARP.  This benefit was previously reserved for only Gold and Platinum members.  If you want to book a larger room during prime season, you will want to use this benefit.  For example, I used it to book the last four-bedroom presidential at Great Smokies lodge over 4th of July week.  RARP allows you to book outside your home resort(s) at the 11-month mark instead of having to wait until the 10-month mark.  You can book both deeded or CWA inventory at 11 months.  Non-VIP have to wait until the 10-month mark to have access to both.  This benefit will be especially helpful over the next few years because availability is going to be tighter than normal.  So while you might have previously been able to wait until 10 months from check in to book that 4 bedroom presidential, you might not be able to now because you will have more competition for that larger room at the 10-month mark.  People have points to burn, so they are going to try and book larger and/or more rooms.  The catch to this benefit is that not every resort participates.  Most Club Wyndham ones do, but some don't.  Resorts where VIP benefits do not apply, do not participate in RARP.  The other catch is you can only use that benefit a certain number of times per year.  In the case of Silver, that's twice a year.  If you cancel the RARP reservation, you don't get that RARP benefit back.


I’m Silver VIP with CWA so I already have ARP at 13 months at all CWA resorts. RARP won’t  do much, if anything, for me. I know there are some resorts that don’t  have CWA inventory but most do. Am I missing something?


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## Richelle (Nov 10, 2020)

Rolltydr said:


> I’m Silver VIP with CWA so I already have ARP at 13 months at all CWA resorts. RARP won do much, if anything, for me. I know there are some resorts that don’t  have CWA inventory but most do. Am I missing something?


Your 13-month booking rights apply to CWA inventory only.  You do not have access to deeded inventory at those CWA participating resorts.  In the case of Canterbury, you have access to less than 1% of the inventory at 13 months. Bonnet Creek is 27% CWA.  National harbor is 18%.  The rest is deeded inventory.  For VIP, you get access to that deeded inventory at 11 months, instead of 10 months.  So you would have access to 100% of available inventory instead of a small percentage.  That gives you a one month advantage over regular owners.


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## Rolltydr (Nov 10, 2020)

Richelle said:


> Your 13-month booking rights apply to CWA inventory only.  You do not have access to deeded inventory at those CWA participating resorts.  In the case of Canterbury, you have access to less than 1% of the inventory at 13 months. Bonnet Creek is 27% CWA.  National harbor is 18%.  The rest is deeded inventory.  For VIP, you get access to that deeded inventory at 11 months, instead of 10 months.  So you would have access to 100% of available inventory instead of a small percentage.  That gives you a one month advantage over regular owners.


Okay. That makes sense. Thanks for the details.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 10, 2020)

Richelle said:


> Your 13-month booking rights apply to CWA inventory only.  You do not have access to deeded inventory at those CWA participating resorts.  In the case of Canterbury, you have access to less than 1% of the inventory at 13 months. Bonnet Creek is 27% CWA.  National harbor is 18%.  The rest is deeded inventory.  For VIP, you get access to that deeded inventory at 11 months, instead of 10 months.  So you would have access to 100% of available inventory instead of a small percentage.  That gives you a one month advantage over regular owners.



That reminds me - I need to get ahold of the most recent CWA POS to update the CWA ownership sheet.   Does anyone have a recent PDF version of the CWA POS by chance?  Like from H2 2019 or 2020?  Additionally, if you have an older CWA POS from before 2018 - I'd love to get ahold of the PDF.  The CWA POS is the big two inch book that they give you when you purchase CWA developer points during contract signing.  It's usually included on the tablet they give you with all of your documentation.


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## Richelle (Nov 10, 2020)

Rolltydr said:


> Okay. That makes sense. Thanks for the details.


Just to reiterate one of my comments, because it's very important to keep in mind.  VIPs can only do that a certain number of times a year.  So for Silver, you can book at 11 months twice a year.  Bronze gets 1.  Gold, Platinum, and Founders get 3,4, ad 5 respectively.  If you end up canceling your reservation, you don't get the RARP you used back.  So use them wisely.


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## dgalati (Nov 10, 2020)

Richelle said:


> Just to reiterate one of my comments, because it's very important to keep in mind.  VIPs can only do that a certain number of times a year.  So for Silver, you can book at 11 months twice a year.  Bronze gets 1.  Gold, Platinum, and Founders get 3,4, ad 5 respectively.  If you end up canceling your reservation, you don't get the RARP you used back.  So use them wisely.


A lot of strings attached to the benefit when canceling. They could charge another $159 for booking at 11 months and probably get it!


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## CCdad (Nov 10, 2020)

Richelle said:


> Your 13-month booking rights apply to CWA inventory only.  You do not have access to deeded inventory at those CWA participating resorts.  In the case of Canterbury, you have access to less than 1% of the inventory at 13 months. Bonnet Creek is 27% CWA.  National harbor is 18%.  The rest is deeded inventory.  For VIP, you get access to that deeded inventory at 11 months, instead of 10 months.  So you would have access to 100% of available inventory instead of a small percentage.  That gives you a one month advantage over regular owners.



Does anyone know if the CWA inventory that’s visible in the online system is a set aside or a block of days and/or unit types by Wyndham (either for ARP or otherwise)?  

One other issue I wonder about is that I understood that CWA’s a first come first served booking for that 1% at Canterbury vs 27% at Bonnet Creek.  So hypothetically, could snowbirds use up the CWA Bonnet Creek (or any Florida CWA) inventory via ARP in the 1Q of a given year, leaving little if any CWA resort inventory to be booked as ARP for the rest of the year?

How does the points are points at ten months affect whether the CWA inventory is ever made available to Select owners (if it’s a specific set aside of dates/unit types for CWA owners, but wasn’t booked before the ten month window)? Or can Wyndham decide to roll the CWA set aside of inventory?  

Just curious to better understand how CWA vs Select inventory is allocated to either ownership group.


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## schoolmarm (Nov 10, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> That reminds me - I need to get ahold of the most recent CWA POS to update the CWA ownership sheet.   Does anyone have a recent PDF version of the CWA POS by chance?  Like from H2 2019 or 2020?  Additionally, if you have an older CWA POS from before 2018 - I'd love to get ahold of the PDF.  The CWA POS is the big two inch book that they give you when you purchase CWA developer points during contract signing.  It's usually included on the tablet they give you with all of your documentation.



I just PICed my Massanutten week and should have that document in my files. I'll look in the morning... I think it was 400+ pages.


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## Rolltydr (Nov 11, 2020)

deleted


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 11, 2020)

schoolmarm said:


> I just PICed my Massanutten week and should have that document in my files. I'll look in the morning... I think it was 400+ pages.



Yep it’s a big document full of tables and tabular datasets. That’s what I source the CWA ownership sheet from. If you locate it please PM me the file. Many thanks! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Richelle (Nov 12, 2020)

New supplement.  No surprises at first glance.  Everything in there is stuff we already discussed here.



			https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_Resort_Directory_Supplement.pdf


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## cbyrne1174 (Nov 12, 2020)

Richelle said:


> New supplement.  No surprises at first glance.  Everything in there is stuff we already discussed here.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_Resort_Directory_Supplement.pdf



Bronze tier does actually look like it might be worth buying into with a 3 bedroom PIC. You get 1 extra HK token, 1 extra GC, 15% off, suite upgrades at 15 days, plus the extra savings in MF costs by PICing a really low MF 3 bedroom.


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## comicbookman (Nov 13, 2020)

If i read the eligibility section correctly, in order to maintain your tier you are only required to keep above your grandfathered required point total.  so if you are currently plat. and have say a little over 1.1 million points, you can give up the some points as long as you stay above 1 million ( the old level).  anyone read this differently?


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## CCdad (Nov 13, 2020)

comicbookman said:


> If i read the eligibility section correctly, in order to maintain your tier you are only required to keep above your grandfathered required point total. so if you are currently plat. and have say a little over 1.1 million points, you can give up the some points as long as you stay above 1 million ( the old level). anyone read this differently?



Yes., that’s how I interpret it from reading Page 6 of the November 2020 supplement.

The Legacy VIP by Wyndham Platinum tier should be maintained as long as you owned and retain at least 1Mn Legacy developer points ON AND AFTER Nov 10, 2020. 

For Legacy VIP by Wyndham Gold, it’s owned and retain either 500k Legacy developer as of 11/1/2012 OR 700k Legacy developer as of 11/10/2020. 

For Legacy VIP by Wyndham Silver, it’s either 300k Legacy developer as of 11/1/2012 OR 400k Legacy developer as of 11/10/2020.

To qualify for the Bronze tier, you must have at least 300k developer and had a/any Legacy developer purchase on or after May 2019. Those owners with a least 300k but less than 400k developer before May 2019 need to make another purchase to become a VIP.

Having a Bonus points award over either or both of these Legacy dates are a bit tricky.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## r4rab (Nov 13, 2020)

CCdad said:


> Yes., that’s how I interpret it from reading Page 6 of the November 2020 supplement.
> 
> The Legacy VIP by Wyndham Platinum tier should be maintained as long as you owned and retain at least 1Mn Legacy developer points ON AND AFTER Nov 10, 2020.
> 
> ...


Yeah, we're temporary VIPP, permanent VIPG with our bonus contract expiring in about 1 year when we should drop back to Legacy VIPG. I was more certain of this before reading the official verbiage but still expect it to work that way.


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## CO skier (Nov 13, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Bronze tier does actually look like it might be worth buying into with a 3 bedroom PIC. You get 1 extra HK token, 1 extra GC, 15% off, suite upgrades at 15 days, plus the extra savings in MF costs by PICing a really low MF 3 bedroom.


What little I know about buying into the VIP Program, I learned on TUG, so maybe I missed something.

1)  3 bedroom PIC is worth 254,000 points leaving minimum 46,000 to purchase (and I think that is the minimum allowed).

2)  Recall prices from $130/1000 (Flash sale price from telesales) to $263+/1000 at sales center.  With any administrative fees, about $6500-$12000 to purchase Bronze VIP.

3)  Not sure what the extra savings on a really low MF 3 bedroom PIC might be.  $200/year?

Compare this to an eBay purchase of 300,000 Club Wyndham Access or low MF deed which is easily acquired for under $1000 total:









						CLUB WYNDHAM ACCESS 300,000 POINTS ANNUALLY  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for CLUB WYNDHAM ACCESS 300,000 POINTS ANNUALLY at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				












						Wyndham Smokey Mountains, 300,000 Annual Points!!!  | eBay
					

Wyndham Smokey Mountains, 300,000 Annual Points. Please Click *READ MORE* For More Information.



					www.ebay.com
				




1)  Savings of $5500+ versus even lowball telesales PIC pricing ($6500-$1000=$5500).

2)  Cost saving of really low MF 3 bedroom PIC is largely or totally offset by the additional $150+/year VIP program fees plus the $89/year to convert PIC to points.

3)  Cost savings of 1 extra Guest Certificate = $99 times 10 years = $990 savings from Bronze VIP

4)  Cost savings of 1 extra HK = $159 times 10 years = $1590 savings from Bronze VIP

5)  So far after 10 years, the eBay purchase is still ahead by $2920  ($5500-$990-$1590).

6)  If _every_ reservation over 10 years receives the 15% discount, that would be worth 450,000 points.  At $5.63/1000 MF, that would be $2533 Bronze VIP savings.

7)  $2920 - $2533 = $387 advantage to the eBay CWA even after 10 years.


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## cbyrne1174 (Nov 13, 2020)

CO skier said:


> What little I know about buying into the VIP Program, I learned on TUG, so maybe I missed something.
> 
> 1)  3 bedroom PIC is worth 254,000 points leaving minimum 46,000 to purchase (and I think that is the minimum allowed).
> 
> ...







Smaller point packages cost more. Purchase price will be at least $150 x 49 = $7,350

Massenutten has 3 bedroom for $725/year.         (725+0.64*254+89)/254 = $3.85 per thousand for the 254,000 PIC points

CWA = $6.92 per thousand               $6.92 - $3.85 = $3.07 per thousand savings using PIC points vs. CWA

Using just 2020 MF, in 1 year you will save $779.78 by using the PIC points vs CWA points (3.07x254), so it will take about 10 years to break even just on the MF alone when compared to CWA.


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## CO skier (Nov 14, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Smaller point packages cost more. Purchase price will be at least $150 x 49 = $7,350
> 
> Massenutten has 3 bedroom for $725/year.         (725+0.64*254+89)/254 = $3.85 per thousand for the 254,000 PIC points
> 
> so it will take about 10 years to break even just on the MF alone when compared to CWA.


Minimum 10-year Return on Investment is where other VIP analyses in the past have led.

Except not really, considering that the $6,350 difference between a Bronze VIP purchase versus eBay purchase invested in the stock market instead would, on average, be worth more than $13,000 ten years from now, which would mean a Bronze VIP purchase would never be a better deal than an eBay purchase of CWA or most any other Club Wyndham deed.


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## dgalati (Nov 14, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Smaller point packages cost more. Purchase price will be at least $150 x 49 = $7,350
> 
> Massenutten has 3 bedroom for $725/year.         (725+0.64*254+89)/254 = $3.85 per thousand for the 254,000 PIC points
> 
> ...


What about the lost opportunity of investing the $7500 and doubling it over a 10 year time span with a 7% annual return. A 10 year pay back on the original investment is comparable to loaning money at 0%. It is a sunk cost that will never be returned. In a 10 year time frame a lot of unexpected can happen to change travel needs. IMHO your comment on buying a small 5000 point Worldmark account and using bonus time is a cheaper way to travel compared to the $7500 sunk cost of trying to PIC to bronze. If you are looking for discounts and free upgrades rent from a VIPP that will pass along the 50-60% savings.


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## Braindead (Nov 14, 2020)

CO skier said:


> Minimum 10-year Return on Investment is where other VIP analyses in the past have led.
> 
> Except not really, considering that the $6,350 difference between a Bronze VIP purchase versus eBay purchase invested in the stock market instead would, on average, be worth more than $13,000 ten years from now, which would mean a Bronze VIP purchase would never be a better deal than an eBay purchase of CWA or most any other Club Wyndham deed.





dgalati said:


> What about the lost opportunity of investing the $7500 and doubling it over a 10 year time span with a 7% annual return. A 10 year pay back on the original investment is comparable to loaning money at 0%. It is a sunk cost that will never be returned. In a 10 year time frame a lot of unexpected can happen to change travel needs. IMHO your comment on buying a small 5000 point Worldmark account and using bonus time is a cheaper way to travel compared to the $7500 sunk cost of trying to PIC to bronze. If you are looking for discounts and free upgrades rent from a VIPP that will pass along the 50-60% savings.


The Wyndham forum is so unbelievably to me!!
We’re talking about disposable income, is it really anyone’s business to demean, put down, insinuate a bad financial decision on ones choice of how they spend their disposables income.

Hell let’s put a cap on a wise car purchase. Is it $5,000 or $10,000 or $20,000?? Every new car sale should never happen, invest that $$
Let’s do the same for buying a house??

You can always find a cheaper way to travel. Stay at the cheapest hotel you can find. Why doesn’t everyone do that ??
Only use RCI last calls, that’s cheaper than renting from VIP!!

I don’t see this nonstop crap in the other TS forums. Why??

I for one have stopped telling or recommending TUG to other owners. If you’re a happy Wyndham VIP there isn’t enough helpful information here to offset the nonstop crap postings. I’ll just show them eBay & give them a list of resellers to buy from, they can call me anytime on a contract for sale.


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## Eric B (Nov 14, 2020)

Braindead said:


> ....
> 
> Hell let’s put a cap on a wise car purchase. Is it $5,000 or $10,000 or $20,000?? Every new car sale should never happen, invest that $$
> ....



A better idea would be to just find someone that only drives to work with their car and will let you use it while it would just be parked for the cost of the gas.  There's no good reason to buy your own car when you can just rely on someone else's driving privileges...!


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## chapjim (Nov 14, 2020)

For a day or two after the roll-out, a pop-up appeared when I logged in to the website.  It was "Welcome to Founders" or something like that.  I didn't have time to see what was there and now it doesn't appear anymore. 

What did I miss?


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## 55plus (Nov 14, 2020)

I had a pop up like that too. Didn’t pay much attention to it. Now it’s gone. My concern was making sure I was grandfathered, which I was.


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## spackler (Nov 14, 2020)

Braindead said:


> I don’t see this nonstop crap in the other TS forums. Why??



There's a few posters who repeat the same message hundreds (if not thousands) of times in this forum; just put them on "ignore" like the rest of us do.


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## Jan M. (Nov 14, 2020)

chapjim said:


> For a day or two after the roll-out, a pop-up appeared when I logged in to the website.  It was "Welcome to Founders" or something like that.  I didn't have time to see what was there and now it doesn't appear anymore.
> 
> What did I miss?



Nothing. It was just the formal announcement of the Founders benefits. We already knew what they were going to be and there were no surprises.


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## CO skier (Nov 14, 2020)

Braindead said:


> We’re talking about disposable income, is it really anyone’s business to demean, put down, insinuate a bad financial decision on ones choice of how they spend their disposables income.


My cost analysis posts were intended in the spirit of this:









						Hundreds of Timeshare Owners have found TUG & saved Millions of dollars cancelling timeshares!
					

This sticky will serve as a reference for threads from folks who found TUG in time to rescind their new Timeshare purchase and save thousands by discovering the resale market!  note these are just threads that CONFIRM a member has found TUG in time to rescind new purchase and save money buying...




					tugbbs.com
				




I am sorry you misunderstood the intent.

If someone decides Bronze VIP is a good deal, I have no objection.


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## chapjim (Nov 14, 2020)

Jan M. said:


> Nothing. It was just the formal announcement of the Founders benefits. We already knew what they were going to be and there were no surprises.



Okay, thanks!  I suspected as much.


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## Cyrus24 (Nov 14, 2020)

Braindead said:


> We’re talking about disposable income, is it really anyone’s business to demean, put down, insinuate a bad financial decision on ones choice of how they spend their disposables income.


Agree 100%, my money, my life, my choice.  I'm happy to be a VIPP owner and thankful that my entire family is getting some joy from the ownership.  I'm also happy that I sunk $100K cash into a new truck and travel trailer in 2019 as it let us travel, a lot, in 2020.  Practical, no, am I a happy camper, yes.  My money, my life, my choice.

Above said, I do appreciate the analysis being given to those who need to understand the true costs and true savings/benefits.  That's very valuable.


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## WyndhamBarter (Nov 14, 2020)

Jan M. said:


> no surprises



I'm not sure, but I think the popup contained a link to this page:

https://clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com/us/en/club-benefits/vip-by-wyndham

There was also an Email entitled "Your New Tier Is Here! Explore Your Benefits",
but for some reason mine didn't show up until Friday afternoon.

The Email had this table (and also a link to the above web page):


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## Braindead (Nov 14, 2020)

CO skier said:


> My cost analysis posts were intended in the spirit of this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Cyrus24 said:


> I do appreciate the analysis being given to those who need to understand the true costs and true savings/benefits.


I think it’s about impossible to cost analysis a Wyndham VIP ownership.
Here’s some reasons why:
As MFs go up the amount of dollars saved on discounts & upgrades go up every year. He has $0 factored in
What if cbyrne decides they want to PIC a second week for about the same cost? Now they’ll get bigger discounts on the first $$ spent. Again he has $0 factored.
What about upgrades?? Again $0 factored in.
cbyrne is young so their expected years of usage is decades.
Wyndham could raise fees that VIPs don’t pay.

Plus55 has posted they save more than enough $$ every year to pay what the inherited VIP ownership cost the parents.

Cost analysis never works for me regarding vacations. It’s what the individual is willing to spend enjoying the time away making lifelong memories with family & friends!!! Some think they can accomplish that never staying overnight by simply doing activities within a couples hours of home. While the rest of us wouldn’t do that or we wouldn‘t own or even rent from a VIP!!!


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## vv813 (Nov 14, 2020)

same as jan m, that I can't see what the new rules are-but I have something that concerns me and I haven't seen it brought up or can not find where I saw it.
It has been in the last few days but it was in regards to passing your timeshare on to children, grands etc. it stated that they had to already have something like 300,000 points already.-I can not find where I saw- maybe in the new supplement booklet (please tell me where I can find this) but can someone give me their read on this.  Wondering if this is for new people acquiring
vip status after to 10th or does it mean all (grandfathered or not) thanks.


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## CO skier (Nov 14, 2020)

Braindead said:


> Cost analysis never works for me regarding vacations. It’s what the individual is willing to spend enjoying the time away making lifelong memories with family & friends!!! Some think they can accomplish that never staying overnight by simply doing activities within a couples hours of home. While the rest of us wouldn’t do that or we wouldn‘t own or even rent from a VIP!!!


My cost analysis is not about whether to go on vacation or not.  Bronze VIP owner A and Resale owner B both own 300,000 points.  The "used" resale points get Owner B into the same vacation condos at the same times as the "new" points from the developer.  Both owners could take an annual trip to Bonnett Creek at Christmas.  (No VIP discount, room upgrade unlikely).  At the end of 10 years,
Owner A has 300,000 points and Bronze VIP status
Owner B has 300,000 points and money in the bank.

I do not see how Owner A comes out ahead, financially, even after 40 years, but if someone can get Bronze VIP to pencil out for their particular usage, more power to them.

One other important point is that to even get close requires relying on the PIC Program.  I am surprised that Michael Brown did not terminate that program with the introduction of Privileges.  Maybe he is not aware of the end run to VIP.  Will the PIC Program still be in effect 10 years from now?

This is déjà vu all over again.  Rather than spend any more time, again, anyone who wants to read around in circles may go here:









						Minimum VIP Platinum buy in cost
					

I want to use it because I live 45 min from clearwater, an hour from bonnet creek and reunion, and 2 hrs from ocean walk. Without VIP benefits, It's hard to book short stays at those locations because of housekeeping credits. I'm more worried about breaking even over time and still getting to...




					tugbbs.com


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## Rolltydr (Nov 14, 2020)

CO skier said:


> My cost analysis is not about whether to go on vacation or not.  Bronze VIP owner A and Resale owner B both own 300,000 points.  The "used" resale points get Owner B into the same vacation condos at the same times as the "new" points from the developer.  Both owners could take an annual trip to Bonnett Creek at Christmas.  (No VIP discount, room upgrade unlikely).  At the end of 10 years,
> Owner A has 300,000 points and Bronze VIP status
> Owner B has 300,000 points and money in the bank.
> 
> ...


What Braindead is saying, and you aren’t hearing, is that a timeshare and VIP ownership aren’t exclusively financial transactions for many of us. If that’s how you view them, then you shouldn’t purchase one. However, many of us place a higher satisfaction or happiness value on the time we are able to enjoy spending with friends and family in comfortable accommodations in beautiful and exciting locations. The money may be gone tomorrow. The memories will last forever.


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## dgalati (Nov 14, 2020)

CO skier said:


> My cost analysis is not about whether to go on vacation or not.  Bronze VIP owner A and Resale owner B both own 300,000 points.  The "used" resale points get Owner B into the same vacation condos at the same times as the "new" points from the developer.  Both owners could take an annual trip to Bonnett Creek at Christmas.  (No VIP discount, room upgrade unlikely).  At the end of 10 years,
> Owner A has 300,000 points and Bronze VIP status
> Owner B has 300,000 points and money in the bank.
> 
> ...



What about owner C who has 0 points and rents from a VIPP as needed?


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## Braindead (Nov 14, 2020)

dgalati said:


> What about owner C who has 0 points and rents from a VIPP as needed?


Wrong forum!!


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## dgalati (Nov 14, 2020)

Eric B said:


> A better idea would be to just find someone that only drives to work with their car and will let you use it while it would just be parked for the cost of the gas.  There's no good reason to buy your own car when you can just rely on someone else's driving privileges...!


Leasing or renting a car would never work for me. I drive to many miles per year and have found out its cheaper to own and sell between 80,000- 100,000 miles.  After the 100k mark the value of a car drops like a led Zeppelin along with unexpected repair or operating costs that sky rocket.


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## vv813 (Nov 14, 2020)

ok finally found supplement that i question.  it is on the interactive site.   page 6 explains passing it to family member.   if  i were to split my account and give some points to daughter who currently has no points but i give enough to have her qualify for vip im not sure i understand, but it says that they have to already own 300k.  am i just misunderstanding.  I thought if we/they wanted we could just pass it on


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## Eric B (Nov 14, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Leasing or renting a car would never work for me. I drive to (sic) many miles per year and have found out its cheaper to own and sell between 80,000- 100,000 miles.  After the 100k mark the value of a car drops like a led Zeppelin along with unexpected repair or operating costs that sky rocket.



To be clear, I'm not talking about paying for the use of the car, but instead just taking advantage of someone else's privileges of ownership.  It's a fungible concept that isn't limited to timeshare ownership/usage.  Just take advantage!  All is good!


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## CCdad (Nov 14, 2020)

vv813 said:


> ok finally found supplement that i question. it is on the interactive site. page 6 explains passing it to family member. if i were to split my account and give some points to daughter who currently has no points but i give enough to have her qualify for vip im not sure i understand, but it says that they have to already own 300k. am i just misunderstanding. I thought if we/they wanted we could just pass it on



You can have the title(s) to your developer purchased points put into the name(s) of qualifying family members to retain VIP. But you can’t choose to split up an amount of points to pass on to family members within a single deed to unless Wyndham changes the rules.

It may make sense to try to keep everything in one account if your family members can make it work.


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## cbyrne1174 (Nov 14, 2020)

CO skier said:


> My cost analysis posts were intended in the spirit of this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I was just pointing out it's a good deal with a $7,000-$8,000 buy in cost with a low MF PIC since it will only take 10 years to break even on MF alone. Most of the savings would come from last minute upgrades if you travel when the resort isn't at full occupancy. I personally would spend that money on a 1,500 point Marriott Destinations Club resale contract before I would buy into VIP Bronze. I was just pointing out if you want to only travel in the Wyndham system for a long time, it's a good deal. 

Me personally, I would rather have my resale Club Wyndham account + a minimum size Worldmark account + a minimum size Destinations Club account. Both Marriott and Worldmark let you rent points directly from other owners, which you can use to make your own reservations, so I see that as a better choice because I value flexibility and variety. For example, if you want to visit Maui, you need a Worldmark or Marriott membership because Club Wyndham doesn't have a resort there. You need Worldmark for the west coast, Fiji and Mexico and you need Marriott for Aruba, Thailand and Paris. If you are the type of person that likes to go to the same places year after year, then PICing to Bronze is a good deal in the long term. If you want a larger network of resorts to chose from, then owning resale in multiple systems is the way to go.


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## Richelle (Nov 14, 2020)

Braindead said:


> The Wyndham forum is so unbelievably to me!!
> We’re talking about disposable income, is it really anyone’s business to demean, put down, insinuate a bad financial decision on ones choice of how they spend their disposables income.
> 
> Hell let’s put a cap on a wise car purchase. Is it $5,000 or $10,000 or $20,000?? Every new car sale should never happen, invest that $$
> ...



Agreed 100%. I could have taken that $35k I spent to be VIP gold and throw it in an investment account. I could use the money I would be paying maintenance fees to rent from another owner, but you know what? It would be more responsible to invest that money instead. Why spend money renting from an owner when I can throw it into an investment account? A vacation is not a requirement. Time off is important to health, but that doesn’t mean we have to go to a beach or theme park. We can invest that money we would spend on airfare or gas money. We can invest that money we would spend eating out. The only thing that is required it a roof over your head, clothes on your back, food on the table and anything required to make those first 3 happen. Everything else is a luxury. So let’s just throw that money into an investment account. 

It’s ridiculous to tell someone how to spend the money THEY worked hard to get. It’s arrogant to think they know what’s best for them. They can worry about their money and I’ll worry about mine. I have my investment accounts and retirement accounts. I’m good. I don’t know what tomorrow will bring, so I would like to enjoy my money now. Between investments and pensions, we will be fine in retirement. Even if I wasn’t, it’s not their problem or business. 

Btw, Welcome back. Lol


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## CO skier (Nov 14, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> ... it will only take 10 years to break even on MF alone ...


I do not know what personal finance or business finance classes you may have taken, but "only 10 years to break even" would have made a good laugh for the rest of the class and the instructor.  Doubly so if they knew the average length of timeshare ownership is 9 years.









						Timeshare Industry Continues to Attract New Buyers According to ARDA
					

Washington, D.C. (PRWEB) April 26, 2017 --  According to the newly released 2016 U.S. Shared Vacation Ownership Consolidated Owners Report from the ARDA



					www.prweb.com
				



.

Spending the money, instead, on most any resale timeshare with Marriott, or WorldMark or Club Wyndham, as you suggest, and coming out ahead of "break even" on day 1 versus a developer purchase would put you at the head of the class.


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## CCdad (Nov 15, 2020)

CO skier said:


> I do not know what personal finance or business finance classes you may have taken, but "only 10 years to break even" would have made a good laugh for the rest of the class and the instructor. Doubly so if they knew the average length of timeshare ownership is 9 years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Except that cbyrne is intending to hold to enjoy her TS(s) for much longer than 9 years; that’s if you’ve bothered to pay attention to her posts.

You and dgalati need to get a life and stop making fun of those just wanting to enjoy their TS travels no matter what the cost.


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## Jan M. (Nov 15, 2020)

If the average length is 9 years then it's because of the people who buy a timeshare and shouldn't have. Because of finances. Because the resort or system they bought wasn't a good fit for them. Because they bought something with really high maintenance fees. Because they didn't understand how little time at the resorts what they bought would get them. Because they had no idea there would be additional expenses like transaction fees, housekeeping credits or guest fees associated with using it. I've seen a significant number of people who fall into some or all of those categories and they bought resale, very inexpensively to somewhat inexpensively compared to buying developer. 

With all the information available online I'm amazed at how often people dump what they bought for the various reasons. 

There are those of us who've owned since before all kinds of information was easily available online. A lot of us have no regrets for what we spent on our gold, platinum and now founders ownerships. DH and I say it's pure dumb luck that it's worked out so well for us. Especially considering that when we first started buying points all we knew about timeshares was that my sister and BIL owned one with another timeshare company for over 10 years and were very happy with it. We liked the points system and had no interest in owing a fixed week.


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## CO skier (Nov 15, 2020)

Geez.  All I can add is that, Wyndham VIPs are a "touchy bunch."  ... and highly defensive for no apparent reason.


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## CO skier (Nov 15, 2020)

CCdad said:


> that’s if you’ve bothered to pay attention to her posts.


Pay attention to the posts.  He/she recommended resale Marriott, WorldMark, even Wyndham over a developer purchase.


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## schoolmarm (Nov 15, 2020)

Just an FYI, the telesales price is now in the $160s per 1000 points. And they are only selling CWA. I got an equal number of bonus points for my Nov. 10th purchase to enroll my PIC. This was for 105K. The same price was quoted for a larger package. 

Hope this helps someone in planning a telesales purchase.


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## cbyrne1174 (Nov 15, 2020)

CO skier said:


> Pay attention to the posts.  He/she recommended resale Marriott, WorldMark, even Wyndham over a developer purchase.



I recommended resale in multiple systems for people who want variety, but if you plan on using your membership for 30-50 years and are okay with a smaller pool of resort options, a small purchase to get to Bronze doesn't seem like a bad trade off. At $160 per thousand, Bronze status only costs $7,840.

Also, 10 years is a good break even point when you're 31 years old.  Don't assume someone's age when they post on here. I have another 50 years of life left so 10 years to me doesn't mean the same as 10 years to you. 10 years from now I will still have young children seeing as I'm not even done having them yet. I would actually be able to use upgrades from 1 bedroom to 2 bedrooms at Oceanwalk, Bonnet Creek and Pompano beach during the summer when my kids are home. I'd just rather stay in studios in the Marriott system for the same price because I prefer variety over space.


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## Braindead (Nov 15, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I recommended resale in multiple systems for people who want variety, but if you plan on using your membership for 30-50 years and are okay with a smaller pool of resort options, a small purchase to get to Bronze doesn't seem like a bad trade off. At $160 per thousand, Bronze status only costs $7,840.
> 
> Also, 10 years is a good break even point when you're 31 years old.  Don't assume someone's age when they post on here. I have another 50 years of life left so 10 years to me doesn't mean the same as 10 years to you. 10 years from now I will still have young children seeing as I'm not even done having them yet. I would actually be able to use upgrades from 1 bedroom to 2 bedrooms at Oceanwalk, Bonnet Creek and Pompano beach during the summer when my kids are home. I'd just rather stay in studios in the Marriott system for the same price because I prefer variety over space.


You did give me a chuckle in your other post when you said “if you’re the type of person that wants to go back to the same places every year, then PICing to Bronze is a good deal” it almost sounded like a fixed week owner.lol  My family doesn’t feel like we’re going back to the “same places“ with the variety of Wyndham Resorts! I’m glad that you’ve found the good mix for you & your family.

But on that point I think when a newbie comes here looking for info on dipping their toe into timesharing they often end up dazed & confused by several posters here. Let’s keep it simple & help them buy a WYNDHAM timeshare. Wyndham is an excellent company when trying your first timeshare it’s very inexpensive to get in & out if needed. I think it would beneficial to save the multi company-renting etc advice farther down the road.

That’s one of my points on it only happens in the Wyndham forum. Why?? When I browse the other forums when a newbie is looking for info on buying the posters help them find a contract to buy in that TS co not multiple companies & they certainly don’t run down the TS company they own in!! I don’t get why that happens here!!!


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## Richelle (Nov 15, 2020)

CO skier said:


> Geez.  All I can add is that, Wyndham VIPs are a "touchy bunch."  ... and highly defensive for no apparent reason.


Not defensive.  Annoyed would be more accurate.  Annoyed that someone is arrogant enough to assume they know what's best for some stranger on the internet.  Annoyed that someone is arrogant enough to think they know what's best for their money, even though they didn't earn.  Annoyed that they are arrogant enough to think people want advice on what to do with their money, even though they never asked for it.

I really don't care if someone thinks I'm dumb for going into VIP.  I enjoy it, make good use of it, and can afford it.  That's what matters to me.  I often find that the people who bash VIP the most are the ones who are trying to convince themselves that it's a bad idea, even though they want it.  Those are the ones that come off as defensive to me.  Someone says they enjoy it, so they feel a need to bash it.  I'm really not concerned with them.  I know I made a good choice for my needs.  I have no reason to be defensive.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 15, 2020)

schoolmarm said:


> Just an FYI, the telesales price is now in the $160s per 1000 points. And they are only selling CWA. I got an equal number of bonus points for my Nov. 10th purchase to enroll my PIC. This was for 105K. The same price was quoted for a larger package.
> 
> Hope this helps someone in planning a telesales purchase.



It depends on the volume of points purchased. I received a telesales quote for 300k/300k points for $141/1000 CWA for example. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bendadin (Nov 15, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> It depends on the volume of points purchased. I received a telesales quote for 300k/300k points for $141/1000 CWA for example.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



$141 purchase in the 300s.
$140 purchase in the 400s.


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## schoolmarm (Nov 15, 2020)

bendadin said:


> $141 purchase in the 300s.
> $140 purchase in the 400s.




Yeah, I was hoping for THOSE prices on Nov. 10th. Didn't happen. One of the larger offers was around 300K pts. 
He knew that it was the last day to get the unlimited housekeeping and before the raise in points per level.  
Still, I'm glad I did it. Even at $160/1000.


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## Richelle (Nov 16, 2020)

schoolmarm said:


> Yeah, I was hoping for THOSE prices on Nov. 10th. Didn't happen. One of the larger offers was around 300K pts.
> He knew that it was the last day to get the unlimited housekeeping and before the raise in points per level.
> Still, I'm glad I did it. Even at $160/1000.


Depending on how many you bought, the $19 per 1,000 price difference isn't significant overall.  Depending on how long you have it, and how often you use it, you may make that difference back in housekeeping savings.  You'll never get an ROI on the whole thing, but I wouldn't sweat the higher price tag.


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## CO skier (Nov 17, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> but if you plan on using your membership for 30-50 years and are okay with a smaller pool of resort options, a small purchase to get to Bronze doesn't seem like a bad trade off.


Oh, now the "break even" for a minimum VIP purchase is 30-50 years.   and a smaller pool of resorts  (within 60 days).  ahahahaha!

Newbies reading this, buy something, anything resale Wyndham and forget about VIP.


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## CCdad (Nov 17, 2020)

CO skier said:


> Oh, now the "break even" is 30-50 years.   and a smaller pool of resorts  (within 60 days).  ahahahaha!
> 
> Newbies reading this, buy something, anything resale Wyndham and forget about VIP.



Dude, you need to learn to read her posts first in the context that they were written and then COMPREHEND what she wrote.  

In her earlier post(s), she described how she came up with the Bronze VIP breakeven of 10 years.  

Then she described her personal travel / ownership preferences - owning a combination of resale at Wyndham, Marriott and WM.  

If she was ok just being limited to the smaller Wyndham pool of resorts - the Bronze VIP breakeven is still 10 years.  If she or another owner were to be able to use their Bronze VIP for 30-50 years, it's a better return vs only holding to the 10 year breakeven.


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## 55plus (Nov 17, 2020)

if you keep your VIP ownership long enough it will pay for itself if you maximize the benefits. VIPP provides the fastest payback if used to its full potential, in my opinion.


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## dgalati (Nov 17, 2020)

55plus said:


> if you keep your VIP ownership long enough it will pay for itself if you maximize the benefits. VIPP provides the fastest payback if used to its full potential, in my opinion.


Inheriting a VIPP is the fastest payback unless you can find a VIPP to take you on as a co-owner.


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## 55plus (Nov 17, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Inheriting a VIPP is the fastest payback unless you can find a VIPP to take you on as a co-owner.


I met a guy earlier this year in Destin who is joining forces with two other couples to combine their ownerships to become VIP Platinum. I questioned liability and he said they have a contract drawn up to protect themselves. Something like this may not be spelled out in Wyndham’s policy, but I think this violates trust between Wyndham and its owners.


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## dgalati (Nov 17, 2020)

55plus said:


> I met a guy earlier this year in Destin who is joining forces with two other couples to combine their ownerships to become VIP Platinum. I questioned liability and he said they have a contract drawn up to protect themselves. Something like this may not be spelled out in Wyndham’s policy, but I think this violates trust between Wyndham and its owners.


Nothing wrong with playing by the rules and I agree with you 55PLUS but Renting  millions of resale points with VIP discount benefits is not spelled out either. Many VIP owners feel its OK and justify bending the rules to take advantage of this loophole. Cancel and re book was a non benefit also but many felt it was OK. When it was eliminated VIP owners blamed the Mega renters. We all know that VIP owners took advantage of this loophole and were also part of the problem.


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 17, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Nothing wrong with playing by the rules and I agree with you 55PLUS but Renting  millions of resale points with VIP discount benefits is not spelled out either. Many VIP owners feel its OK and justify bending the rules to take advantage of this loophole. Cancel and re book was a non benefit also but many felt it was OK. When it was eliminated VIP owners blamed the Mega renters. We all know that VIP owners took advantage of this loophole and were also part of the problem.


Cancel/rebook was not a loophole. And it was HUGELY used as a marketing tool.  And without full disclosure that there was risk of losing the unit in the cancel/rebook process. You could call and a VC would do the cancel/rebook for you. Really unfair to shame anyone for using it. 

Conversely, my sister for years went to Bentley Brook the week before President's week. A week that is never sold out and you can always get at 1/2 price of a studio and upgrade to a 2 bedroom.  For some reason Greenwich, CT, winter break is always the week before everyone else's. My father never, ever, cancel/rebooked. For gosh 10 years, my sister paid full points for that room. Just thinking there were alot of other VIP owners like my Dad.  Along those lines, they looked for a reservation once and if it wasn't there, never looked again. Thinking those are the type users that would complain about availability. Maybe not your common owner in 2020, but maybe still? (He was not on the do not sell list).


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## Richelle (Nov 17, 2020)

Sandi Bo said:


> Cancel/rebook was not a loophole. And it was HUGELY used as a marketing tool.  And without full disclosure that there was risk of losing the unit in the cancel/rebook process. You could call and a VC would do the cancel/rebook for you. Really unfair to shame anyone for using it.



I did see it as a loophole but didn't think any less of the average owner for using it, even if it wasn't used as a marketing tool.  Especially given how much they paid for their ownership.  However, I knew it was a loophole that would eventually be closed because common sense dictated that the discount was meant to encourage people to book in quiet times.  So when the sales guy tried to tell me it was a benefit, I didn't bite.  That was the same meeting the sales guy tried to tell us that PR members could get pizza delivery from NYC to Orlando if they wanted it.  Again, common sense dictated that the cost to get that pizza down there would be too much, not to mention it would taste terrible by the time it got there.  He obviously believed my husband and I were dumber than a box of rocks.  Needless to say, he didn't get a sale that day.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 17, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Nothing wrong with playing by the rules and I agree with you 55PLUS but Renting millions of resale points with VIP discount benefits is not spelled out either. Many VIP owners feel its OK and justify bending the rules to take advantage of this loophole. Cancel and re book was a non benefit also but many felt it was OK. When it was eliminated VIP owners blamed the Mega renters. We all know that VIP owners took advantage of this loophole and were also part of the problem.



I disagree with your assessment with respect to the characterization that VIP owners are somehow taking advantage of a loophole by also using resale points for VIP transactions. By any common definition, a loophole is a set of steps that can be leveraged to somehow work around the system in question to take unfair advantage. For example, a tax loophole is used to avoid paying higher tax rates on income, often by categorizing the revenue into a bucket that is in turn treated differently from a taxable standpoint. 

As a VIP owner I cannot choose to use resale points differently than developer points within the system. Nor can anyone at Wyndham via Owner Care on our behalf. I cannot even determine which points will be used when making a reservation. Wyndham has built the system to allow for VIP owners to use all points under ownership for VIP discounts. That includes resale points, PIC points, converted points, etc. That’s not a loophole - it’s the way the system works by design. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dgalati (Nov 17, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I disagree with your assessment with respect to the characterization that VIP owners are somehow taking advantage of a loophole by also using resale points for VIP transactions. By any common definition, a loophole is a set of steps that can be leveraged to somehow work around the system in question to take unfair advantage. For example, a tax loophole is used to avoid paying higher tax rates on income, often by categorizing the revenue into a bucket that is in turn treated differently from a taxable standpoint.
> 
> As a VIP owner I cannot choose to use resale points differently than developer points within the system. Nor can anyone at Wyndham via Owner Care on our behalf. I cannot even determine which points will be used when making a reservation. Wyndham has built the system to allow for VIP owners to use all points under ownership for VIP discounts. That includes resale points, PIC points, converted points, etc. That’s not a loophole - it’s the way the system works by design.
> 
> ...


I respect your opinion but Cancel and rebook also wasn't considered a loophole at one time but that was how the system worked back then also.


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## Braindead (Nov 17, 2020)

dgalati said:


> I respect your opinion but Cancel and rebook also wasn't considered a loophole at one time but that was how the system worked back then also.


Why don’t you get over your jealousy of Wyndham VIPs & move on!!!
Your so happy with your WM account so go over to the WM forum & be happy!!
Your only mission here is stir the pot trying turn VIPs on each other & your not happy if atleast half of every thread isn’t about you!!
From your post your not even a Wyndham owner so why do you care what goes on here if it’s not for ATTENTION!!!!


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## dgalati (Nov 17, 2020)

Sandi Bo said:


> Cancel/rebook was not a loophole. And it was HUGELY used as a marketing tool.  And without full disclosure that there was risk of losing the unit in the cancel/rebook process. You could call and a VC would do the cancel/rebook for you. Really unfair to shame anyone for using it.
> 
> Conversely, my sister for years went to Bentley Brook the week before President's week. A week that is never sold out and you can always get at 1/2 price of a studio and upgrade to a 2 bedroom.  For some reason Greenwich, CT, winter break is always the week before everyone else's. My father never, ever, cancel/rebooked. For gosh 10 years, my sister paid full points for that room. Just thinking there were alot of other VIP owners like my Dad.  Along those lines, they looked for a reservation once and if it wasn't there, never looked again. Thinking those are the type users that would complain about availability. Maybe not your common owner in 2020, but maybe still? (He was not on the do not sell list).


Intention was not to shame anyone and I don't blame anyone for taking what the system allows them to use to their advantage.


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 17, 2020)

Richelle said:


> I did see it as a loophole but didn't think any less of the average owner for using it, even if it wasn't used as a marketing tool.  Especially given how much they paid for their ownership.  However, I knew it was a loophole that would eventually be closed because common sense dictated that the discount was meant to encourage people to book in quiet times.  So when the sales guy tried to tell me it was a benefit, I didn't bite.  That was the same meeting the sales guy tried to tell us that PR members could get pizza delivery from NYC to Orlando if they wanted it.  Again, common sense dictated that the cost to get that pizza down there would be too much, not to mention it would taste terrible by the time it got there.  He obviously believed my husband and I were dumber than a box of rocks.  Needless to say, he didn't get a sale that day.


I think I first learned about cancel/rebook here, lol. TUG saved me (it definitely was where I came (drinking water through a fire hose)) when my Dad paid someone to take his VIPP off his hands). Then I had to convince my step-mother that cancelled points weren't dirty. Definitely a long road for me. I would agree the cancel/rebook was a loophole when the automated programs were running. With 1000% assuredness, they were cancelling and rebooking. Anyways, it's over, lol.  And I think we can both agree - common sense would tell you it would some day go away (I remember how dumbshocked I was to first learn of it, terrified when the VC's confirmed we could do it, and taking them up on it when they offered to do it all for me). The books we could write on what the salespeople have said or done.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 17, 2020)

dgalati said:


> I respect your opinion but Cancel and rebook also wasn't considered a loophole at one time but that was how the system worked back then also.



You missed a key point regarding the definition of a loophole. For any VIP owner to take advantage of the cancel/rebook loophole - they had to perform a certain set of steps to work the system to produce the resulting advantage - hence taking advantage of the loophole - actions were necessary to do so. 

If and when anyone can show me the specific set of steps that VIP owners can use to work the system to produce the advantage specific to resale points - then I will agree. But I know there is no set of steps - no actions that can be taken - because the system simply works as designed. 

I have no issues with VIP owners having this added benefit for all point types owned, including resale points. We paid dearly for the benefits we have compared to resale only owners. This is no different than investors who enjoy Accredited Investor status - and therefore have access to investments and benefits that ordinary non-accredited investors do not. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Richelle (Nov 17, 2020)

dgalati said:


> I respect your opinion but Cancel and rebook also wasn't considered a loophole at one time but that was how the system worked back then also.



The cancel rebook loophole is not the same thing as resale points getting VIP benefits. The first required someone to book two rooms. One big, one small. Then in the discount and upgrade window, they cancel both and then book the smaller one at a discount and upgrade to the bigger one. In other words, a series of steps like [mention]HitchHiker71 [/mention] described. The second is not a series of steps. It happens on its own. The owner does not do anything to make it happen and there is nothing they can do to stop it from happening. Since there are no specific steps the owner has to do to make it happen, you cannot call it a loophole. All they do is book the reservation in the discount window just like every other VIP. If Wyndham finds it benefits them to stop that, they will. 

I think what it really boils down to is, people are upset that they paid a ton of money on those points because they didn’t do their research. Had they don’t their research, they would have learned about resale. They are mad at themselves for not doing the research. It’s easier to say that someone else is the problem then admit to themselves they made a mistake. Had they figured it out beforehand, I suspect many of them would have bought resale like us and gotten the same “benefit” for less money.


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## CCdad (Nov 17, 2020)

Richelle said:


> The second is not a series of steps. It happens on its own. The owner does not do anything to make it happen and there is nothing they can do to stop it from happening. Since there are no specific steps the owner has to do to make it happen, you cannot call it a loophole.



Let the hair splitting begin.

The second series of steps occurs when 

1) an owner either has VIP status and chooses to add a resale points contract to their VIP account OR
2) they have a resale points account and choose to purchase a developer points contract(s) to have VIP privileges added.

Then they take advantage of VIP benefits on some or all of their resale acquired points (booking reservations in the VIP discount window, receiving upgraded units on full price or discounted reservations in the VIP upgrade window, making upgraded points deposits in RCI, etc).

While some of this does happen automatically by program design, an owner still has taken steps to enable those VIP benefits being applied to a resale points acquisition.


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## Eric B (Nov 18, 2020)

... so it’s somehow wrong for a VIP owner to buy resale contracts...?  That seems to be what this is evolving to.


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 18, 2020)

Eric B said:


> ... so it’s somehow wrong for a VIP owner to buy resale contracts...?  That seems to be what this is evolving to.


... however, it is perfectly fine to buy for $1 something someone paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 18, 2020)

CCdad said:


> While some of this does happen automatically by program design, an owner still has taken steps to enable those VIP benefits being applied to a resale points acquisition.



What steps did the VIP owner take to "enable those VIP benefits being applied to a resale points acquisition" exactly?  What did I as a VIP owner do to leverage a loophole?  The answer is there were no steps.  Explain to me how VIP benefits being applied to resale points is any different than VIP benefits being applied to PIC points.  PIC points are not developer points either, so using your same assumptions and assertions, VIP owners should also not be able to use PIC points for VIP discounts.  

Again, I see no issue with VIP owners having the added benefit of points discounts for points other than pure developer points in their accounts.  Perhaps there are a handful of VIP owners taking advantage of this benefit by adding millions of resale points to their accounts, but the vast majority of VIP owners don't fall into this bucket.  In the real world, we don't manage by exception, we manage by the rule (80/20), and the essential argument being made here, which really is unsupportable at the end of the day IMHO, is that we should manage by exception.  Obviously Wyndham is not managing by exception, they are managing by the rule, and I for one am glad they are doing exactly that.


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## CCdad (Nov 18, 2020)

I’ve done both - the PIC Plus enrollment and added resale contract points to my VIP account. I’m following the rules like others have and I’m not ashamed to have gotten my higher VIP tier using PIC Plus. 

The only point meant by my post is that the purchase(s) in either case was made with both full knowledge and intent that VIP benefits would apply to resale (or that the PIC contract enrollment piggy backed to the developer purchase). To suggest that it wasn’t a planned step is simply hair splitting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dgalati (Nov 18, 2020)

Sandi Bo said:


> ... however, it is perfectly fine to buy for $1 something someone paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for


Wyndham does this with Ovations so I guess its OK. Only difference between Wyndham and most resale buyers is resale buyers don't sell at 5 to 6 figures.


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 18, 2020)

CCdad said:


> I’ve done both - the PIC Plus enrollment and added resale contract points to my VIP account. I’m following the rules like others have and I’m not ashamed to have gotten my higher VIP tier using PIC Plus.
> 
> The only point meant by my post is that the purchase(s) in either case was made with both full knowledge and intent that VIP benefits would apply to resale (or that the PIC contract enrollment piggy backed to the developer purchase). To suggest that it wasn’t a planned step is simply hair splitting.
> 
> ...


And I'll add to that... if tomorrow, Wyndham changes the rules and VIP benefits do not apply to resale points, we should not be surprised.  Inheriting a VIPP is awesome, don't get me wrong, but the maintenance fees are on the high side. I've been able to balance those out purchasing resale at much lower MF's. It also leaves me with desirable contracts, regardless, even if the ability to apply VIP benefits goes away. 

I don't have any PICs, but could that benefit be taken away? Since Wyndham markets it the way they do, maybe the benefit would be grandfathered? I might be more upset were that benefit be taken away, but still, shouldn't one be ready for anything? 

The only thing constant with Wyndham is change. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. And enjoy it while it lasts.


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## Eric B (Nov 18, 2020)

IMHO, they would be less likely to take away the PIC privileges because you’re paying the program fees on those and they get to rent out the weeks if you PIC them.


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## Richelle (Nov 18, 2020)

CCdad said:


> I’ve done both - the PIC Plus enrollment and added resale contract points to my VIP account. I’m following the rules like others have and I’m not ashamed to have gotten my higher VIP tier using PIC Plus.
> 
> The only point meant by my post is that the purchase(s) in either case was made with both full knowledge and intent that VIP benefits would apply to resale (or that the PIC contract enrollment piggy backed to the developer purchase). To suggest that it wasn’t a planned step is simply hair splitting.
> 
> ...



You're assuming they know those benefits will be applied when they buy resale, or had resale and went VIP.  You are assuming all owners are as knowledgeable as Tug members.  Tug members are a tiny portion of their ownership.  I spend enough time on the Facebook groups to know there are a ton of people who know little to nothing about what they own.


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## Richelle (Nov 18, 2020)

Eric B said:


> IMHO, they would be less likely to take away the PIC privileges because you’re paying the program fees on those and they get to rent out the weeks if you PIC them.


You're paying the program fee on the resale points as well.  Wyndham claims that resale owners are a small portion of their ownership base.  If that's true, going through the trouble of reprogramming the system to be able to restrict a small subset of points like that might not be worth it.  Not worth the cost or not worth the risk of something going wrong.


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## Richelle (Nov 18, 2020)

Sandi Bo said:


> And I'll add to that... if tomorrow, Wyndham changes the rules and VIP benefits do not apply to resale points, we should not be surprised.  Inheriting a VIPP is awesome, don't get me wrong, but the maintenance fees are on the high side. I've been able to balance those out purchasing resale at much lower MF's. It also leaves me with desirable contracts, regardless, even if the ability to apply VIP benefits goes away.
> 
> I don't have any PICs, but could that benefit be taken away? Since Wyndham markets it the way they do, maybe the benefit would be grandfathered? I might be more upset were that benefit be taken away, but still, shouldn't one be ready for anything?
> 
> The only thing constant with Wyndham is change. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. And enjoy it while it lasts.



I think if they took away PIC, even if they didn't allow exchanges anymore, we'd still keep our VIP status.  At that point, there is no reason to keep the PIC week.  So I could unload it and still have VIP with fewer maintenance fees if I don't replace it with a points contract.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 18, 2020)

CCdad said:


> I’ve done both - the PIC Plus enrollment and added resale contract points to my VIP account. I’m following the rules like others have and I’m not ashamed to have gotten my higher VIP tier using PIC Plus.
> 
> The only point meant by my post is that the purchase(s) in either case was made with both full knowledge and intent that VIP benefits would apply to resale (or that the PIC contract enrollment piggy backed to the developer purchase). To suggest that it wasn’t a planned step is simply hair splitting.
> 
> ...



My resale points were acquired primarily for rentals to offset the overall cost of my ownership. I specifically targeted low MF resale contracts to maximize the delta between the $/1000 cost and the $7-10/1000 I typically charge for rentals. While I did know that my resale contracts would enjoy certain VIP benefits - I did not acquire the resale contracts for that reason. 

BTW, IME renting - the vast majority of rentals are not booked within the 60 day discount window - they are booked months in advance. The entire concept that somehow most VIP owners are booking rentals within the discount window is, again, the exception and not the rule. Most renters plan farther in advance IME. 

There appears to be a false narrative repeatedly parroted on TUG that somehow the vast majority of rentals occur within the discount window. This is not accurate based upon what I know. It is the exception not the rule. I have no idea why this false narrative is so popular on TUG. It makes me wonder aloud what the motives really are for anyone that tends to push this narrative repeatedly. 

The reality is that most people cannot vacation at the last minute on short notice - they have to plan in advance - especially when coordinating time off and availability with other friends and family members. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dgalati (Nov 18, 2020)

Richelle said:


> I spend enough time on the Facebook groups to know there are a ton of people who know little to nothing about what they own.


This is a understatement. Many owners are ignorant about what they bought resale or developer. No excuse for anyone to not be informed about what they purchased with the information available today on the internet.


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## CCdad (Nov 18, 2020)

dgalati said:


> This is a understatement. Many owners are ignorant about what they bought resale or developer. No excuse for anyone to not be informed about what they purchased with the information available today on the internet.



Unfortunately for the the non-internet savvy owners wanting to sell their VIP contracts, this lack of internet knowledge has caused the timeshare exit companies to thrive.

I was very disgusted when one shared how much they paid to TTG to unload a smaller contract.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dgalati (Nov 18, 2020)

CCdad said:


> Unfortunately for the the non-internet savvy owners wanting to sell their VIP contracts, this lack of internet knowledge has caused the timeshare exit companies to thrive.
> 
> I was very disgusted when one shared how much they paid to TUG to unload a smaller contract.
> 
> ...


Yes I could never figure out how Sumday Vacations could sell a Grand Desert deed for $100 with all closing costs paid by seller. That was until I called a seller I was buying from through Sumday but the deed would not transfer before Dec 31. I asked him if he could deposit 300,000 points into RCI before they expired at the end of the year and I could compensate him for these points. He was also unaware about Ovations and after talking to him he told me he paid 4k to unload this deed. That day I fully understood how shark infested the Timeshare industry was. It it is very common and happens to way to many older owners. Many of us have bought cheap resale deeds from third parties that receive the inventory from the exit companies without knowing it. A lot of these cheap deeds can be found on ebay or are resale companies that are highly recommended on TUG. I have to ask are we to blame and are we perpetuating the problem of Exit companies that prey on the unknowing when we purchase these cheap no cost deeds?.


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## chapjim (Nov 18, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> <snip>
> 
> BTW, IME renting - the vast majority of rentals are not booked within the 60 day discount window - they are booked months in advance. The entire concept that somehow most VIP owners are booking rentals within the discount window is, again, the exception and not the rule. Most renters plan farther in advance IME.
> 
> ...



My own account sees way more discounted and upgraded reservations.  As far as short notice is concerned, many families can't deal with it and they will pay full price.  But, there are enough people out there who can spot a bargain and are able to use it.  That's not working very well this year, by the way!

I do both -- book via ARP at the first possible moment and book starting at Day 60.  I end up canceling many of the reservations made 10-14 months before check-in either at Day 15 or so I can use the points for something I find while bottom feeding.

I did a quick look at my sheet for 2020, which does not show the dozens of reservations that I've canceled.  I have forty-three Wyndham reservations with a check-in date of November 14 or earlier (i.e., they were used or are in use).  Seven were not discounted or upgraded.  Three were 2BR units at Royal Vista, booked at full price outside the 60 day window and because there was nothing to upgrade from or upgrade to when Day 60 came around.  Two were Bike Week at Ocean Walk.  Two were Mardi Gras at La Belle Maison.  Same deal with those.

Obviously, 2020 is not a typical year.  I canceled all the reservations I had at Bonnet Creek for the weeks before and after Easter and a bunch in May and June.  Some would have been rented as undiscounted reservations with no upgrade.

For the rest of 2020, I have six reservations during the last three weeks in December, all of which were both discounted and upgraded.  One is rented and we'll use one.  If I don't find any more reservations and end up canceling the other four I have now, I'll roll 855,000 points into 2021.


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## Richelle (Nov 18, 2020)

dgalati said:


> This is a understatement. Many owners are ignorant about what they bought resale or developer. No excuse for anyone to not be informed about what they purchased with the information available today on the internet.





dgalati said:


> He was also unaware about Ovations and after talking to him he told me he paid 4k to unload this deed. That day I fully understood how shark infested the Timeshare industry was. It it is very common and happens to way to many older owners.



So the owner who didn't know about Ovation was uninformed despite the information that is available on the internet.  I do not think we are the problem.  The exit companies charging insane amounts of money to desperate owners, and those owners not taking 10 minutes to research their options, are the problem.    Timeshare exit companies take advantage of people's lack of knowledge.  Timeshare salespeople do the same.  Had the owner taken 10 minutes to research their options, or even call Wyndham to ask what their options were, they would not have paid thousands to exit their timeshare. 10 minutes would have saved them thousands.  Even if we all stopped buying resale, the timeshare exit companies will still continue to make false promises.  They would promise to take their timeshare off their hands.  Then they would take their money and run.  You don't need a resale market to run that scam.  The only thing we can do is buy from reputable sellers who facilitate sales between owner and buyer directly.  There is one broker on the Facebook groups that I have sold one of my contracts through.  He found the buyer within hours and it was off my account in less than 10 weeks.  Didn't cost me a dime.  In fact, I made $400.   I also purchased one from him.  The closing company worked directly with the owner.  Timeshare exit companies will still scam people.  They don't need me to buy resale contracts to do that.


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## dgalati (Nov 18, 2020)

Richelle said:


> So the owner who didn't know about Ovation was uninformed despite the information that is available on the internet.  I do not think we are the problem.  The exit companies charging insane amounts of money to desperate owners, and those owners not taking 10 minutes to research their options, are the problem.    Timeshare exit companies take advantage of people's lack of knowledge.  Timeshare salespeople do the same.  Had the owner taken 10 minutes to research their options, or even call Wyndham to ask what their options were, they would not have paid thousands to exit their timeshare. 10 minutes would have saved them thousands.  Even if we all stopped buying resale, the timeshare exit companies will still continue to make false promises.  They would promise to take their timeshare off their hands.  Then they would take their money and run.  You don't need a resale market to run that scam.  The only thing we can do is buy from reputable sellers who facilitate sales between owner and buyer directly.  There is one broker on the Facebook groups that I have sold one of my contracts through.  He found the buyer within hours and it was off my account in less than 10 weeks.  Didn't cost me a dime.  In fact, I made $400.   I also purchased one from him.  The closing company worked directly with the owner.  Timeshare exit companies will still scam people.  They don't need me to buy resale contracts to do that.


I agree but its troubling to know when buying from these exit companies I somehow enable the high fees they charge.


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## Richelle (Nov 18, 2020)

dgalati said:


> I agree but its troubling to know when buying from these exit companies I somehow enable the high fees they charge.



If you were not there to take it, the owner wouldn't be getting out of it.  The exit company would lie to them, telling them it's gone and to stop paying the fees and not answer the calls.  At least this way, you salvaged their credit score.


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## dgalati (Nov 18, 2020)

Richelle said:


> So the owner who didn't know about Ovation was uninformed despite the information that is available on the internet.  I do not think we are the problem.  The exit companies charging insane amounts of money to desperate owners, and those owners not taking 10 minutes to research their options, are the problem.    Timeshare exit companies take advantage of people's lack of knowledge.  Timeshare salespeople do the same.  Had the owner taken 10 minutes to research their options, or even call Wyndham to ask what their options were, they would not have paid thousands to exit their timeshare. 10 minutes would have saved them thousands.  Even if we all stopped buying resale, the timeshare exit companies will still continue to make false promises.  They would promise to take their timeshare off their hands.  Then they would take their money and run.  You don't need a resale market to run that scam.  The only thing we can do is buy from reputable sellers who facilitate sales between owner and buyer directly.  There is one broker on the Facebook groups that I have sold one of my contracts through.  He found the buyer within hours and it was off my account in less than 10 weeks.  Didn't cost me a dime.  In fact, I made $400.   I also purchased one from him.  The closing company worked directly with the owner.  Timeshare exit companies will still scam people.  They don't need me to buy resale contracts to do that.


I guess I can rationalize that its some how better then Ovations getting it for free then Wyndham fleecing another unsuspecting young couple into buying at 30k.


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## CCdad (Nov 18, 2020)

Wyndham could or should know and track the statistics of both the age range and the booking characteristics of their owner base. They could've advertised Ovations to the over 70 crowd that may have little or no internet experience. Perhaps they're the ones that have to call their VCs to make all reservations and likely don't follow up to see if VIP discounts and upgrades might be available within 30-60 days of check in. 

If they happen to have internet service, whose children or grandchildren have to come over and re-set the internet PW on their household devices when their cable modem flakes out due to a power loss.  Too old to know how to "cut the cord" and switch to streaming services. 

Both the timeshare exit companies and WD prey on those elderly.  

What an opportunity for WD to use data analytics to do a great customer service thing, selectively offering Ovations to feed their inventory pipeline while keeping some of that business away from the exit companies. 

And look at how many large contracts of all types are being offered on Ebay due to COVID-19; surely not all of those are coming from the mega-renters.


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## Richelle (Nov 18, 2020)

dgalati said:


> I guess I can rationalize that its some how better then Ovations getting it for free then Wyndham fleecing another unsuspecting young couple into buying at 30k.


At least Wyndham doesn't charge people $5k to get out.  They probably could charge for that service as other timeshare developers do, but they don't.  As far as them selling to some sorry sap for $30k, it's up to the buyer to be informed and protect themselves.  If they spend $30k on something they cannot afford, that's on them.  I'll give you that some prey on the elderly.  The elderly are victimized often because they make easy targets.   It's not just timeshare salespeople who take advantage of them either.  As for the rest of the buyers, most have no excuse.  They know impulse buys are bad ideas but they do it anyway.  Even worse, they don't take the time to read the flipping contract or learn the product.  I get that at signing they are breathing down their neck, but after they get out of there, they should take 20 minutes to read through the contract.  If they have time to sit in the sales office for hours, they have time to read a contract after they get out of there.  Sorry, I see this on Facebook and it irks me.  I have zero love for the salespeople, but people refuse to believe they had a role to play in that bad decision.  One of my biggest pet peeves is someone blaming others for their bad choices. Another is people who don't help themselves and expect others to help them.  So people will ask on Facebook what site they should go to, to book their reservations.  In the time it took them to make that Facebook post, they could have done a google search and had that answer.  People bewilder me sometimes.


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## Jan M. (Nov 18, 2020)

CCdad said:


> Wyndham could or should know and track the statistics of both the age range and the booking characteristics of their owner base. They could've advertised Ovations to the over 70 crowd that may have little or no internet experience. Perhaps they're the ones that have to call their VCs to make all reservations and likely don't follow up to see if VIP discounts and upgrades might be available within 30-60 days of check in.
> 
> If they happen to have internet service, whose children or grandchildren have to come over and re-set the internet PW on their household devices when their cable modem flakes out due to a power loss.  Too old to know how to "cut the cord" and switch to streaming services.
> 
> ...



There were times in 2019 that I added up over 9M points just in offerings of more than 500k CWA points on eBay. I didn't include the many listings of less than 500k CWA points.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 18, 2020)

CCdad said:


> Wyndham could or should know and track the statistics of both the age range and the booking characteristics of their owner base. They could've advertised Ovations to the over 70 crowd that may have little or no internet experience. Perhaps they're the ones that have to call their VCs to make all reservations and likely don't follow up to see if VIP discounts and upgrades might be available within 30-60 days of check in.



You know, I’ve seen many people post online about how they were upgraded upon resort check-in. This never made sense to me as I’ve literally never received an upgrade upon check-in. 

I had never connected the fact that there is a subset of owners who don’t use the website at all who are VIP and receive automatic upgrades. I wonder aloud if these owners are the same folks who don’t use the online system and therefore may not be aware of an upgraded reservation, so they don’t find out about their upgrade until they actually go to check-in at the resort? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Richelle (Nov 18, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> You know, I’ve seen many people post online about how they were upgraded upon resort check-in. This never made sense to me as I’ve literally never received an upgrade upon check-in.
> 
> I had never connected the fact that there is a subset of owners who don’t use the website at all who are VIP and receive automatic upgrades. I wonder aloud if these owners are the same folks who don’t use the online system and therefore may not be aware of an upgraded reservation, so they don’t find out about their upgrade until they actually go to check-in at the resort?
> 
> ...


I wonder how many of them don't realize they bought enough to be VIP.


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## erniecrews (Nov 18, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> You know, I’ve seen many people post online about how they were upgraded upon resort check-in. This never made sense to me as I’ve literally never received an upgrade upon check-in.
> 
> I had never connected the fact that there is a subset of owners who don’t use the website at all who are VIP and receive automatic upgrades. I wonder aloud if these owners are the same folks who don’t use the online system and therefore may not be aware of an upgraded reservation, so they don’t find out about their upgrade until they actually go to check-in at the resort?
> 
> ...


I have received many upgrades at checkin even after being upgraded via the web.  I have also been turned down a lot.  You have to ask.  I know how the system works.  Once recently I had already been upgraded to a 2 bdrm deluxe from a 1 bdrm, at checkin I asked if they had anything better and they gave me a 3 bdrm pres.


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## CO skier (Nov 19, 2020)

Richelle said:


> As far as them selling to some sorry sap for $30k, it's up to the buyer to be informed and protect themselves.


That is exactly the point of my cost analysis posts.  Don't be a sorry sap; be informed and buy resale to save thousands or tens of thousands.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 19, 2020)

erniecrews said:


> I have received many upgrades at checkin even after being upgraded via the web.  I have also been turned down a lot.  You have to ask.  I know how the system works.  Once recently I had already been upgraded to a 2 bdrm deluxe from a 1 bdrm, at checkin I asked if they had anything better and they gave me a 3 bdrm pres.



Thanks for this information.  Ask and we shall receive eh?  I will definitely start asking, worst they can say is no right?  I'm assuming when you make these asks, you don't ever get charged for the additional points associated with the upgrade at check-in?


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## dgalati (Nov 19, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Thanks for this information.  Ask and we shall receive eh?  I will definitely start asking, worst they can say is no right?  I'm assuming when you make these asks, you don't ever get charged for the additional points associated with the upgrade at check-in?


When I have asked for a room upgrade and there was availability slipping them a Jackson has never failed me.


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## erniecrews (Nov 19, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Thanks for this information.  Ask and we shall receive eh?  I will definitely start asking, worst they can say is no right?  I'm assuming when you make these asks, you don't ever get charged for the additional points associated with the upgrade at check-in?


No never have, It pays to be pleasant


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## Braindead (Nov 26, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> You know, I’ve seen many people post online about how they were upgraded upon resort check-in. This never made sense to me as I’ve literally never received an upgrade upon check-in.





Richelle said:


> I wonder how many of them don't realize they bought enough to be VIP.


Any word if & when we might see the Points Calculator back?? If we have it now I guess I’ve forgotten where to find it.
Points Calculator & MF pages were a couple of my favorites.


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## Richelle (Nov 30, 2020)

Braindead said:


> Any word if & when we might see the Points Calculator back?? If we have it now I guess I’ve forgotten where to find it.
> Points Calculator & MF pages were a couple of my favorites.


Nothing new as of recently 'll send an email asking for an update.


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## Richelle (Nov 30, 2020)

Braindead said:


> Any word if & when we might see the Points Calculator back?? If we have it now I guess I’ve forgotten where to find it.
> Points Calculator & MF pages were a couple of my favorites.



I got a response.  They said based on the fact that there wasn't much use of the calculator on the old site, and feedback from other owners, it's a low priority at the moment.


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