# Loss of Flexibility



## ecwinch (Nov 30, 2018)

In many of the threads here, we have posters who say they oppose new rules to curb commercial renting of WM units because they impact the "flexibility" of the Club.

So I would like to hear some real world accounts of how members have had their *personal usage* of the Club impacted by the rule changes the BoD has made to date.

Off the bat there are two rule changes that come to mind - closing the grouped reservations loophole that was being used to defeat the 13th month booking window. That rule change was designed to level the playing field, and made booking a grouped reservation more difficult - but still possible.

The 2nd change is obviously the introduction of the guest certificate. Which does not prevent guest usage, it just taxes it.

So I would like to get some indicator on how the rule changes have impacted your ownership.

If they have not - feel free to chime in so we can get a rough and wholly unscientific measure of the ratio of the impact.

The only caveat here is that I would ask that you limit it to actual impact, not theoretical.


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## bizaro86 (Nov 30, 2018)

One of my big usages of Worldmark has been at the Worldmark Canmore. Some time ago, I booked rooms for a weekend away for my extended family to celebrate my grandfather's 90the birthday. Everyone loved it, so we're going again this spring. (Booked prior to the GC changes)

Weekends are relatively expensive here, even in blue/white season. I expect to use my free GCs for my parents who come with us relatively often. Adding $99 USD to a 2 day stay in low season makes it cheaper for my extended family to stay in hotels, so I think we'll do that go forward (spring 2020+) for a bigger group.

These are stays that would be in WM, in rooms that would otherwise likely go empty. (Bonus time was available the day before check-in last year, 5+ rooms...)


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## rhonda (Nov 30, 2018)

For me, changes to both Grouped Reservations and Guest Certs has impacted my _ability_ and _willingness_ to book/host family gatherings.  Going forward, WM will be "mostly just about the two of us" and no longer about family.  (Sad)

My prior practices, before these changes, would use Grouped Reservations to book throw-away nights (usually a blue studio) to lead into a 4BR Penthouse unit over a key holiday at the earliest possible time, based on credits available.  I only needed the large unit for ~4 nights.  But now, I need to make sure that all segments are in red season ($$) and that all segments are w/in my 13-month booking window (often too late for the short stay in the desired unit).  So, farewell family holidays.  (I didn't mind the first round of changes to the Grouped Reservation requiring that all segments be named the same.  No big deal, I wasn't renting the truly throw-away portion.  I do not feel that using throw-away nights is an abuse to the system.  I'm paying the dues on those nights, even if they sit empty.)

Related to that same game, I'd book additional units (studio or 2BR units), generally using cash rates, for the holiday portion of the reservation.  These unit types did not require lead-in and could be booked inside the 10-month window.  I would book "a few" as I didn't know which family units might be joining.  I could easily (and prior to recent changes, _freely_) "name" the units as plans settled while keeping the entire collection in my own name until we were close to check-in.  The thing is, when booking 10-13 months out, with young adults/families in the mix, you never know if there might be weddings, babies, adoptions, or similar changes that come along before the actual date of travel.  I was booking the extra units to make sure everyone was "covered" ... using WM's generous cancellation policy as my safety net.  Simply based on principle, I will do everything in my world to avoid paying for a Guest Cert ... even if it means not using WM.

Frankly, I'd already been having trouble with Guest names from a prior change that required Guests to present a CC on check-in.  Eventually, I found that I could contact the resort directly and, with rounds of paperwork, submit my own CC in advance of the Guest's arrival.  A hassle, but at least there was a workaround.

Adding to these, I'm finding that the new Housekeeping Taxes are squishing my interest in booking cash rate reservations.  So, now that I'm not using my credits to host family gatherings ... I'm spending them on my short getaways when I would have previously used a cash rate.  So, fewer Monday Madness, Bonus Time, Inventory Specials (etc) in my future, I'm afraid.  Those taxes are a significant turn-off.

Bottom line for us:
a) We are glad we've enjoyed WM for so many years.
b) *We are glad that we kept our ownership fairly small / reasonable.*  We didn't upgrade to the point that "met our annual usage" but took advantage of transferring in credits (before that rule change ending the transfer of HKT) in large blocks to book big gatherings, booked LOTS of cash rate reservations, etc.
c) We are hugely grateful that we never upgraded to TravelShare or succumb to the sales pressure of trying to match our credits owned to our actual usage.


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## K2Quick (Nov 30, 2018)

We did Canmore and West Yellowstone back-to-back using a grouped reservation a couple years ago (Canmore was booked at the exact 13-month mark and the West Yellowstone portion was four days in advance of the 13-month mark and we were able to get a three bed unit).  That would be a pipe dream under the new rules.


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## breezez (Nov 30, 2018)

ecwinch said:


> In many of the threads here, we have posters who say they oppose new rules to curb commercial renting of WM units because they impact the "flexibility" of the Club.
> 
> So I would like to hear some real world accounts of how members have had their *personal usage* of the Club impacted by the rule changes the BoD has made to date.
> 
> ...



I had 3 WM account I combined a 6K account into a larger NHK account.   prior to combining I moved 12K points from this account to a 3rd account so as to not have HK points in my NHK account.   

I had 3HK tokens in the account I transferred from, and was not able to move 2 of them with points to the account I transferred points to so I lost them.   But will need to now pay HK when I use the points.   In the past I could have moved 2 of them.


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## breezez (Nov 30, 2018)

Guest Certificate is a money grab in my mind but it doesn’t really hurt me since I pretty much stay on my points.

I do feel that if you paid i.e with certificate or by fee if you want to change the guest name you shouldn’t have to pay a fee.

While not WM I find myself for the first time in situation where I need to rent two Wyndham reservations I have for next year.   Life happens,  We booked two 4 day stays for our family for spring break, and daughter told us she was pregnant and come to find out she’s due day one of first reservation.

It’s too late to Bank points and I have all my other stays booked.   So I’ll rent them.  But if I pay for the guest fee I shouldn’t have to pay if I need to change it.   Heck they should make it accessible to change online.


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## rhonda (Nov 30, 2018)

Yellowstone!  Yes, thanks for that reminder (above).  We've booked some great road trips using Grouped Reservations (here is the story of one). Like our Family Gatherings, we booked these _early_, starting at 13 months from the 1st check-in.   Although I haven't tried recently, I'm guessing this would be much more difficult if I had waited until entering the _last_ segment's 13-month window.


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## geist1223 (Nov 30, 2018)

We have previously Booked 3 to 4 units for family gatherings or gathering of friends. No one was ever charged for their room. It was our pleasure to Host them. Now we are limited to 2 Units if we do not want to use or pay for a GC.

The Change in the Group Reservation Rule has made it harder but not impossible to Book Road Trips it now takes a call every 3 to 4 days. We never used this technique to Book couple days in a Studio Blue Week to lead into a week in Hawaii or elsewhere. We used it to Book a road trip staying in every Resort in the chain.

Four  years ago in 1 fone call we Booked 2 days at Arrow Point, then 10 days at West Yellowstone,  and then 2 days at Arrow Point on the way home. It is too far to drive from Salem to West Yellowstone in one day. Can't do this today.


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## sue1947 (Nov 30, 2018)

I am very price conscious both by nature and financial situation.  The additional price of the GC means I won't be doing the same trips with friends I have done in the past.  
In addition to the ones you mentioned, the inability to transfer HK tokens has cost me money as has the limitation on how many credits I can transfer.  More money transferred from my pocket to Wyndham's.


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## CO skier (Dec 1, 2018)

rhonda said:


> My prior practices, before these changes, would use Grouped Reservations to book throw-away nights (usually a blue studio) to lead into a 4BR Penthouse unit over a key holiday at the earliest possible time, based on credits available.  I only needed the large unit for ~4 nights.  But now, I need to make sure that all segments are in red season ($$) and that all segments are w/in my 13-month booking window (often too late for the short stay in the desired unit).  So, farewell family holidays.  (I didn't mind the first round of changes to the Grouped Reservation requiring that all segments be named the same.  No big deal, I wasn't renting the truly throw-away portion.  I do not feel that using throw-away nights is an abuse to the system.  I'm paying the dues on those nights, even if they sit empty.)





K2Quick said:


> We did Canmore and West Yellowstone back-to-back using a grouped reservation a couple years ago (Canmore was booked at the exact 13-month mark and the West Yellowstone portion was four days in advance of the 13-month mark and we were able to get a three bed unit).  That would be a pipe dream under the new rules.


I am on the other side of the Grouped Reservation change.  Prior to the change, I was forced to book throwaway nights to reach the reservation that I wanted.  Now I can book those reservations directly at 13 months, and it saves me the credit$$$ that I was forced to throw away.  The WM Board president cited 4,000-something grouped reservations that violated the 13-month booking window, so the Board thought that booking lead-in nights (whether the owner stayed in the unit or left it vacant) was an abuse of the system.  There is no question that the 13-month booking window is a more level playing field for all 200,000+ owners now than before the rule change.

The original question is about flexibility.  The flexibility of Grouped Reservations is still available.  What has changed is the convenience of booking multiple high-demand destinations, and the competition has increased now that more owners can access high demand resorts at exactly 13 months.


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## CO skier (Dec 1, 2018)

geist1223 said:


> Four  years ago in 1 fone call we Booked 2 days at Arrow Point, then 10 days at West Yellowstone,  and then 2 days at Arrow Point on the way home. It is too far to drive from Salem to West Yellowstone in one day. Can't do this today.


The flexibility is still there.

Book the 10 days at West Yellowstone at 6 a.m.  Call in that same day when the reservation lines open and add the first two days at Arrow Point.  Call in exactly 13 months ahead of the second two days at Arrow Point and add those days. 

If Arrow Point is booking at 13 months, then put in waitlist requests.  Or, if you have credits to borrow (or rent some in -- that flexibility is still there, too), book both Arrow Point at each 13-month window as full weeks at 6 a.m.  Then in 1 fone call, group the first 2 nights of each Arrow Point reservation to the front and back of the West Yellowstone reservation.

A side benefit of this is the five nights dropped from both Arrow Point reservations will feed other owners' waitlist requests.  (Maybe some of them are looking for a couple of nights to group with their West Yellowstone reservation).

Is there any other timeshare that offers this kind of flexibility?


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## geist1223 (Dec 1, 2018)

Previously on trips to Victoria we had left Salem at about 6am to be in line for the just after lunch Ferry out of Port Angeles and have lunch in Port Angeles. In May 2017 we Booked a 1 night stay at Discovery Bay. This way we could leave Salem about noon, stay at Discovery Bay, sleep in, and still easily make the just after lunch Ferry from Port Angeles. The 1 day stay at Discovery Bay and the 1st day at Victoria were both within the 13 month window when we made the Reservation in May 2017. Our plan was to also make a 1 night stay at Discovery Bay on the way back. That way we could stay late in Victoria. But by them time we were able to make a 1 day Reservation Discovery Bay was gone. So we had to leave Victoria on the morning Ferry to make the drive back to Salem.


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## geist1223 (Dec 1, 2018)

CO skier said:


> The flexibility is still there.
> 
> Book the 10 days at West Yellowstone at 6 a.m.  Call in that same day when the reservation lines open and add the first two days at Arrow Point.  Call in exactly 13 months ahead of the second two days at Arrow Point and add those days.
> 
> ...



In my Posting I acknowledged you could still Book Road Trips. But it took multiple calls vice 1 call. Also at 13 months you have to Book 7 days so you have to make multiple calls adding days and dropping days. This creates a greater risk that some days/resorts may not be available.


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## CO skier (Dec 1, 2018)

geist1223 said:


> Previously on trips to Victoria we had left Salem at about 6am to be in line for the just after lunch Ferry out of Port Angeles and have lunch in Port Angeles. In May 2017 we Booked a 1 night stay at Discovery Bay. This way we could leave Salem about noon, stay at Discovery Bay, sleep in, and still easily make the just after lunch Ferry from Port Angeles. The 1 day stay at Discovery Bay and the 1st day at Victoria were both within the 13 month window when we made the Reservation in May 2017. Our plan was to also make a 1 night stay at Discovery Bay on the way back. That way we could stay late in Victoria. But by them time we were able to make a 1 day Reservation Discovery Bay was gone. So we had to leave Victoria on the morning Ferry to make the drive back to Salem.





geist1223 said:


> In my Posting I acknowledged you could still Book Road Trips. But it took multiple calls vice 1 call. Also at 13 months you have to Book 7 days so you have to make multiple calls adding days and dropping days. This creates a greater risk that some days/resorts may not be available.


1)  Did you use the flexibility of the waitlist to put in a request at 13 months for the one missing day at Discovery Bay?  You would be practically guaranteed of getting it.

2)  I showed how the same Arrow Point to West Yellowstone to Arrow Point grouped reservation could be made in only one call, if enough credits were available.  If not one call, then two calls.  Less convenience; same flexibility.


For both cases, there is nothing in the Guidelines that guarantees any certain reservation to any owner.  (People who want a guarantee should buy a fixed week timeshare.)  There is a rule for initiating reservations at WM resorts at 13-months.  The Grouped Reservation change closed the loophole and enforces the 13-month booking window.  The BOD could have eliminated Grouped Reservations altogether.  THAT would have been a loss flexibility.


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## CO skier (Dec 1, 2018)

The BOD could have eliminated owner-to-owner credit transfers, as was done in Club Wyndham years ago.  WorldMark owners, instead, have the flexibility of transferring in/out up to 2 times their annual allotment of credits.  A few owners abused the privilege; the restriction had to apply to all owners.  The majority of owners do not transfer credits, so the majority of owners experienced no change.

It seems to me that through all the rule changes, the BOD is trying to preserve as much flexibility as possible while improving availability for all Owners.


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## uscav8r (Dec 7, 2018)

If you recall, the first discussions about the Group Reservation change were based on the policy that all segments had to be within the 13 month window. Wyndham’s wording was extremely vague and implied that one could not group anything unless the final day was also within the window. 

This would have made it patently unfair for anyone who wished to make a grouped reservation as they could be forced to be 7 days behind everyone else. This was my primary complaint about the policy change. 

This was LATER clarified to mean that the first day of a given segment had to within the 13 month window and that the group would have to be built piece by piece. Okay, that’s not as big a deal, but Wyndham did not do itself any favors with the poor rollout. 

With respect to the new guest fee, it has affected my flexibility in ways no one could have anticipated.

Prior to the implementation, I had booked some ski weeks and put them in family members’ names. I had booked a few extra days to provide flexibility on check-in/out. 

After the fee was in place, I called in to shorten those reservations. Just changing them by a day incurred new fees! BTW, the VC failed to tell me I would be burning my “free” guest certificates so I was appalled when he asked me for credit card info to pay $129. 

So, yes, there is absolutely a loss of flexibility. 

Will I be able to adapt to this “any change means new guest certificate/fee” situation? Yes, but it is a PITA. At the very least, shortening a reservation should NOT incur a new fee and I have registered such feedback with Wyndham. 




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## CO skier (Dec 16, 2018)

uscav8r said:


> After the fee was in place, I called in to shorten those reservations. Just changing them by a day incurred new fees! BTW, the VC failed to tell me I would be burning my “free” guest certificates so I was appalled when he asked me for credit card info to pay $129.
> 
> So, yes, there is absolutely a loss of flexibility.
> 
> Will I be able to adapt to this “any change means new guest certificate/fee” situation? Yes, but it is a PITA. At the very least, shortening a reservation should NOT incur a new fee and I have registered such feedback with Wyndham.


Wait to put your guest/relative name on the reservation until the day before arrival.  Problem solved.  No loss in flexibility.


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## uscav8r (Dec 16, 2018)

CO skier said:


> Wait to put your guest/relative name on the reservation the day before arrival.  Problem solved.  No loss in flexibility.



As I said, I will adapt. This was for a reservation for which I added a guest name prior to the September 12th enactment of the guest fee. So there was absolutely a loss of flexibility in this case and for similar cases moving forward. 

Just wait for when they bring over the Club Wyndham rule of not having any overlapping reservations. 

EDIT: corrected the guest fee active date. 

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## CO skier (Dec 16, 2018)

uscav8r said:


> As I said, I will adapt. This was for a reservation for which I added a guest name prior to the October 20th enactment of the guest fee. So there was absolutely a loss of flexibility in this case and for similar cases moving forward.
> 
> Just wait for when they bring over the Club Wyndham rule of not having any overlapping reservations.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


1)  You would have had to put a guest name on sooner or later.  Sooner, before September 12, 2018 was free; later just cost you what you would have had to pay going forward adding the guest name the day before arrival -- free if you have guest certificates available or the $99 fee if no free GC are available.

2)  No overlapping reservations benefits owners' availability in Club Wyndham and would be a positive development in WorldMark.


The 48-hour rule on guest names in Club Wyndham would be a positive development in WorldMark, too.


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## geist1223 (Dec 17, 2018)

PLEASE NO MORE LOSS in flexibility.


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## chemteach (Dec 17, 2018)

Does Wyndham's "no overlapping reservations" policy mean you can't reserve 2 weeks at the same place?  That would be really bad.  I almost always travel with at least one additional family.


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## tschwa2 (Dec 17, 2018)

chemteach said:


> Does Wyndham's "no overlapping reservations" policy mean you can't reserve 2 weeks at the same place?  That would be really bad.  I almost always travel with at least one additional family.


It means that the second overlapping reservation would have to either have a different present owner to check into that unit or a guest certificate. 
These means that if you reserve multiple units, they can't be in a single name even if you really intend to use personally or for family that are present with you but in a different unit.  So if you can get a 3 BR unit and say have 8 family members staying with you no guest certificate required.  But if you have the same 8 family members travelling with you and only multiple smaller units are available say 2 studios and a 1 BR you would need to have 2 in a different name which may mean using guest certificates if you don't have a co-owner also traveling.  It also means if you book a week and then like to have an overlapping night because you want to check out late from resort 1 and then check into resort 2 early (hence the overlapping night) you would have to have the reservations in two different names.


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## ecwinch (Dec 18, 2018)

But under Club Wyndham you are not limited to only two members on an account. Big distinction there.


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## uscav8r (Dec 18, 2018)

CO skier said:


> 1)  You would have had to put a guest name on sooner or later.  Sooner, before September 12, 2018 was free; later just cost you what you would have had to pay going forward adding the guest name the day before arrival -- free if you have guest certificates available or the $99 fee if no free GC are available.
> 
> 2)  No overlapping reservations benefits owners' availability in Club Wyndham and would be a positive development in WorldMark.
> 
> ...



The overlapping reservation and 48-hour rule would be the death knell for WorldMark flexibility. 

Say one wants to go to Park City for Christmas but it is booked up, so a backup Christmas reservation is made for Lake Tahoe with one or more waitlists put in for Park City. 

After a few months, a couple days match at PC, but not the full week. Guess what? Need to use a non-refundable Guest Certificate for this partial stay at PC. 

Another night matches and you start to piece together your dream vacation. Guess what? By connecting the 2 PC segments into one reservation, you burn ANOTHER guest certificate. But you still don’t have that full Christmas week.

I could go on, but I think my point is made. 

Bringing these specific Club Wyndham polices to WordlMark makes the waitlist nearly useless and kills the flexibility we currently enjoy. 

Still think these are good for WM?


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## CO skier (Dec 19, 2018)

uscav8r said:


> The overlapping reservation and 48-hour rule would be the death knell for WorldMark flexibility.
> 
> Say one wants to go to Park City for Christmas but it is booked up, so a backup Christmas reservation is made for Lake Tahoe with one or more waitlists put in for Park City.
> 
> ...


That is a good point.

Like any change, it comes down to, "Does the change benefit far more owners than it affects?"  How many owners would benefit from the increased availability online versus captured by those owners who use the waitlist for overlapping reservations versus non-overlapping?

A few solutions to your example would be to book the waitlist matches in the name of a co-owner.  This would prioritize owner usage over non-owner usage, which I do not think is a bad thing, but owners with a lot of guest usage would not much care for it.  Or, just take the Lake Tahoe vacation and try for Park City the following year.  Or, put in the waitlist request for Park City, then reserve the following week at Lake Tahoe -- no overlap, so no Guest Certificates needed when piecing together Park City.  Seems flexible enough.


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