# #Ahmed



## VegasBella (Sep 17, 2015)

If you've been paying attention to the news you know this already, but for those who don't watch the news...

A freshman in high school wearing a NASA tshirt who had built a clock for an engineering class was arrested under the WRONG assumption the clock was a bomb. His name is Ahmed and now #Ahmed is trending as a pro-science, pro-engineering tag on twitter. 

Here's one of the news stories about it: http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/16/us/texas-student-ahmed-muslim-clock-bomb/


----------



## Patri (Sep 17, 2015)

President Obama has invited him to the White House, but I am pretty sure if Ahmed was standing in line to visit, the Secret Service would have been all over that device. He also did not build it for the class, but on his own. He was bringing it to school to show the teacher.
Would it have been okay if the school made the RIGHT assumption, as could have been the case with another student? Everyone needs to calm down.


----------



## DaveNV (Sep 17, 2015)

I won't comment on the politics of the situation, but I would like to commend the young man on his intelligence and ingenuity.  If he stays with it, he'll have a bright future career.  Counting POTUS and Mark Zuckerberg among your fans can't be a bad thing, for a 14 year old. 

Dave


----------



## Passepartout (Sep 17, 2015)

*Thumbs up to Ahmed. Thumbs down to his school.*

It was sort of understandable for the teacher to raise the  alarm when the alarm clock- that was after all just a circuit board with wires hanging loose off it- sounded the alarm.

What was inexcusable was the lack of apology by the teacher/principal/police after the clock was deemed harmless. They doubled down on their actions being from 'an abundance of caution'. Bull! When you overreact, have the guts to admit it.

Jim


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 17, 2015)

I once had a student who was in a school play, who accidentally come to class with a starter's pistol in his duffle bag from the previous night's rehearsal.  He came to me with a stricken look on his face when he realized it was still in the bag.  I discreetly locked it in my desk, and called security.  They came and got it after class, and the whole thing was handled very quietly.


----------



## Beaglemom3 (Sep 17, 2015)

As an officer of the court, I cannot understand why they cuffed this kid.












-


----------



## Ironwood (Sep 17, 2015)

Passepartout said:


> It was sort of understandable for the teacher to raise the  alarm when the alarm clock- that was after all just a circuit board with wires hanging loose off it- sounded the alarm.
> 
> What was inexcusable was the lack of apology by the teacher/principal/police after the clock was deemed harmless. They doubled down on their actions being from 'an abundance of caution'. Bull! When you overreact, have the guts to admit it.
> 
> Jim



I would agree entirely!


----------



## Elan (Sep 17, 2015)

How much intelligence was required to discern that it wasn't an explosive device?


----------



## PigsDad (Sep 17, 2015)

Elan said:


> How much intelligence was required to discern that it wasn't an explosive device?



Obviously more than the teacher had.   Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Kurt


----------



## heathpack (Sep 17, 2015)

Beaglemom3 said:


> As an officer of the court, I cannot understand why they cuffed this kid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is 100% my problem with this as well.  And additionally cuffed him in a location such that his sister was able to take a picture of the situation.  Take the kid to the principal's office, lock the door, have someone sit with him.  But handcuffs on a 14 year old boy seems over the top.


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 17, 2015)

Elan said:


> How much intelligence was required to discern that it wasn't an explosive device?



That's my thought. So it's a timer... but timer doesn't equal bomb. What about it looked explosive? I mean, seriously?


----------



## visor (Sep 17, 2015)

Some people have been watching too many Mission Impossible movies...


----------



## TUGBrian (Sep 17, 2015)

eh, were talking about a grade school here...far worse has happened to kids for far less in the past few years (what about the kid that got suspended for eating his pop tart in the shape of a gun).

while one can argue all day that the kid could be completely innocent (or know full well that many folks at first glance at that thing could easily mistake it as far more than it really is)....what I cant get my head around is how his parents didnt mention something along those lines when he decided to go to school with the briefcase.

even something like "hey there ahmed, why not clean up that presentation a bit and hide the wires before some people freak out when you whip that out in the middle of a classroom" would have gone a long way into preventing this ridiculous situation.

im just not buying that this wasnt at least on some level, intentional to get the reaction it did.


----------



## Ken555 (Sep 17, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> eh, were talking about a grade school here...far worse has happened to kids for far less in the past few years (what about the kid that got suspended for eating his pop tart in the shape of a gun).
> 
> while one can argue all day that the kid could be completely innocent (or know full well that many folks at first glance at that thing could easily mistake it as far more than it really is)....what I cant get my head around is how his parents didnt mention something along those lines when he decided to go to school with the briefcase.
> 
> ...




Did the parents even know he was taking it to school?


Sent from my iPad


----------



## Maple_Leaf (Sep 17, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> im just not buying that this wasnt at least on some level, intentional to get the reaction it did.



You may be onto something Brian.  I noticed this line in the referenced CNN article:


> Ahmed's father, Mohamed Elhassan Mohamed, who immigrated from Sudan and *has twice run for that country's presidency*


----------



## Beaglemom3 (Sep 17, 2015)

I am at a loss here as I don't understand why, if there was one iota of concern that this "thing" was an explosive device, the school wasn't evacuated.

-


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 17, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> eh, were talking about a grade school here...far worse has happened to kids for far less in the past few years (what about the kid that got suspended for eating his pop tart in the shape of a gun).


I think being arrested and then not being allowed to talk to your parents when you're a minor is actually worse than suspension. Just my opinion, but there it is. 

The fact that there's a disturbing pattern of teachers and administrators over-reacting to innocent children does not make any of these incidents acceptable. 

As to the rest of your post, the story I heard was that his Engineering teacher told him other teachers would not understand it and to keep it hidden. He had it in his backpack and the timer went off. He pulled it out to turn it off and that's when his English teacher noticed it and freaked out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/17/u...-investigation-for-building-a-clock.html?_r=0


----------



## Luanne (Sep 17, 2015)

The kid is 14, and in high school, not grade school.  How many of us always knew what our kids were taking to school?

Sounds like he's a normal 14 year old [male] who probably didn't think it through when he took the clock to school.  But it certainly could have been handled a whole lot better than cuffing him and leading him out of school.


----------



## TUGBrian (Sep 17, 2015)

pretty sure that most schools "zero tolerance" policy applies to hoaxes, and or other normally harmless items (replica guns, squirt guns, etc) where administrators and teachers are simply instructed to take action at anything that could be viewed as a potential deadly situation...and then let the cops sort it out.

one can debate wheter that rule/policy is ridiculous...as it clearly results in some absurd reactions to what would otherwise be perfectly normal situations as reported by the news...but how much more burden are we going to put on teachers these days?

While I wont speak for everyone, id certainly take a 2nd (or 3rd) glance at what appears in the pictures posted on the internet if someone were "fiddling" with it in my presence...and id have to say that "oh its just a clock" is not the first reaction id have.


----------



## CO skier (Sep 17, 2015)

visor said:


> Some people have been watching too many Mission Impossible movies...



Or a teacher has been watching the 6 o'clock national news and realizes what kind of a world we live in now.

I wonder what the reaction would be if these same circumstances occurred in a school in Israel.


----------



## Luanne (Sep 17, 2015)

Brian, he first showed it to his engineering teacher.  All that teacher said was not to show it to any of his other teachers.  If there was a concern shouldn't he have confiscated it?  Whatever the policy I still don't think handcuffs, and not allowing him to contact his parents, was they way it should have been handled.


----------



## TUGBrian (Sep 17, 2015)

clearly the original teacher had the same thoughts everyone else did when the kid showed it to him, otherwise he wouldn't have told the kid to hide it from everyone else.


that said, ive seen about a million different "reports" on this story...some even go so far as to say the kid refused to tell police exactly what the item was when asked...and only at that point did he get placed under arrest....who knows what to believe these days.

its amazing to watch inflammatory stories morph in the media from one day to the next...perhaps amazing isnt a good word....tragic would be a better one.


----------



## visor (Sep 17, 2015)

I'm surprised the SWAT team wasn't deployed...


----------



## Luanne (Sep 17, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> clearly the original teacher had the same thoughts everyone else did when the kid showed it to him, otherwise he wouldn't have told the kid to hide it from everyone else.



I don't understand what you mean by this.  If the original teacher had the same thoughts as everyone else, why wouldn't he have taken action?  If we thought there was any danger he should have taken it and reported the boy.


----------



## TUGBrian (Sep 17, 2015)

because he clearly didnt want to get the child in trouble should another teacher see him with said item and this exact situation would play out as he feared.

what I meant was, by the original teacher specifically telling the kid to hide the item...he knew perfectly well that someone could mistake said "clock" for something far worse.


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 18, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> what I meant was, by the original teacher specifically telling the kid to hide the item...he knew perfectly well that someone could mistake said "clock" for something far worse.



Warning kids about ignorant and hostile people does not excuse the ignorant and hostile.


----------



## TUGBrian (Sep 18, 2015)

what makes the english teacher ignorant and hostile?  he/she was doing as she was told...and merely reported the child and his "Device" to the principal.

now from there you can certainly argue that the principal shoulda/coulda/woulda handled it differently...but he/she was also probably following some rule made by the school board that forced them into calling the police....and while the police coulda/shoulda/woulda handled it differently...they were probably following some rule made by the city council that forced them to act the way they did.

damned if you do, damned if you dont when you are in positions like that these days.


----------



## DazedandConfused (Sep 18, 2015)

A few things don't smell right with this story.

First, schools are generally ZERO tolerance for guns, knives, bombs, etc. and although there have been cases of kids being suspended for chicken fingers in the shape of a gun, the fact is this clock was pretty sloppy and could in fact look like a bomb and kids are warned every year about bringing in anything like a weapon.

The school has every right to take him to the principal and even suspend him for the day, but I think they crossed the line when they handcuffed him and took him to JV. Once it was discovered to be a "clock" then just call the parents and send him home and they story would have ended there.

The police has said there are two sides of the story and they can't comment as he is a minor, so that tells me that perhaps the kid may have planned on this shock value or was not forthcoming to the police. I am not jumping to conclusions as it appears the school and police over-reacted, but the kid is certainly not innocent.

It is easy to assume this is racial profiling and perhaps it was, but it is better to overreact than to let another school shooting or bombing happen again.

Also, the clock looks pretty crappy. I am not an engineer, but seriously, this is some sloppy engineering to make a clock, even for a 14yo.


----------



## visor (Sep 18, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> going to go ahead and give you one warning for posting something that ignorant and inflammatory as a rebuttal.


Are you referring to my post or Luanne's?

And if it's mine, then really I am surprised that the SWAT team wasn't called in. Because why should the 14 yo be taken out in handcuffs?


----------



## TUGBrian (Sep 18, 2015)

no, it was a reply that was deleted by another party...sorry about that.

I went ahead and deleted my response as well since its clear the party in question got the message =)


----------



## easyrider (Sep 18, 2015)

Im sorry but the real story here is the boys father. To be a presidential candidate in Sudan, which is a very corrupt country full of Muslim extremists, that candidate would likely know very many corrupt people. 

Because the dad is a Sudanese presidential candidate the child was not arrested. The father is or was a member of CAIR ( Council of African Islamic Relations ) which was found to have ties with Hamas and other terrorist groups.

The clock looks very much like a detonator for an IED. I can't believe this kid has been invited to the White House. The only reason I can come up with is the father must be some what influential.

Could you imagine the head ache this device would cause at an airport ? TSA would be allover it. I feel the teachers took the appropriate action with this device. 

Bill


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 18, 2015)

DazedandConfused, do you see how one has an explosive component and the other doesn't? 

The issue at hand is NOT "Does it look like a clock?"
The issue is "Does it look like a weapon?"



...and the answer is,
No, it looks like computer parts.



This is a potato clock, a common science project. Does it "look like a clock?"


----------



## Beefnot (Sep 18, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> DazedandConfused, do you see how one has an explosive component and the other doesn't?
> 
> The issue at hand is NOT "Does it look like a clock?"
> The issue is "Does it look like a weapon?"
> ...





 But of course, teachers around the country should be able to distinguish a sloppily made clock from a detonation type of device. I mean like, duh, didn't they teach that in college what real timers on explosive devices look like? Or that explosives must be physically attached to the detonator and not remotely triggered? That is sooooooo basic!


----------



## Ken555 (Sep 18, 2015)

It seems there are some basic facts we might not know. In the absence of facts several seem compelled to increase fear with their comments...typical. I'm not in the police, I'm not an educator, and I haven't read everything about this incident (much of which appears to be just commentary about the event) but I'd like to think I have some common sense. To me, it seems that the school and the police didn't do what would normally occur if they really thought it was a bomb, so created a big deal about an item which they thought was a bomb...hmm... It's seems to me that if they did think it was a bomb, or could even be a bomb at all then they would:

- call the bomb squad
- evacuate the school
- run away from the bomb...

They wouldn't:

- put the bomb maker and the bomb in an office with teachers and staff to wait for police
- put the bomb in a police car 
- etc

Without putting on the all-to-common conspiracist hat, I'd have to say that they just wanted to humiliate a child because he's different than others (particularly those in charge) in Texas.

It's likely there's more going on than we know about, but the short video I watched of the 14yo seems quite compelling. I'm sorry there are those of you who instinctively think the worst of people.


Sent from my iPad


----------



## Elan (Sep 18, 2015)

Beefnot said:


> But of course, teachers around the country should be able to distinguish a sloppily made clock from a detonation type of device. I mean like, duh, didn't they teach that in college what real timers on explosive devices look like? Or that explosives must be physically attached to the detonator and not remotely triggered? That is sooooooo basic!


A bomb would contain explosive material.  A quick glance at that clock shows that obviously none is present.  If the concern is that it's a remote detonator, then I hope that the teachers are calling in authorities every time a kid walks into school with a cell phone, because they're far better suited to remote detonation than that kid's clock.  


Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mosca (Sep 18, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> It seems there are some basic facts we might not know. In the absence of facts several seem compelled to increase fear with their comments...typical. I'm not in the police, I'm not an educator, and I haven't read everything about this incident (much of which appears to be just commentary about the event) but I'd like to think I have some common sense. To me, it seems that the school and the police didn't do what would normally occur if they really thought it was a bomb, so created a big deal about an item which they thought was a bomb...hmm... It's seems to me that if they did think it was a bomb, or could even be a bomb at all then they would:
> 
> - call the bomb squad
> - evacuate the school
> ...



This. They didn't think it was a bomb, they just wanted to stuff a Muslim kid.


----------



## wackymother (Sep 18, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> It seems there are some basic facts we might not know. In the absence of facts several seem compelled to increase fear with their comments...typical. I'm not in the police, I'm not an educator, and I haven't read everything about this incident (much of which appears to be just commentary about the event) but I'd like to think I have some common sense. To me, it seems that the school and the police didn't do what would normally occur if they really thought it was a bomb, so created a big deal about an item which they thought was a bomb...hmm... It's seems to me that if they did think it was a bomb, or could even be a bomb at all then they would:
> 
> - call the bomb squad
> - evacuate the school
> ...



Exactly! If they thought it was a bomb, why didn't they act like they thought it was a bomb?


----------



## easyrider (Sep 18, 2015)

Kids at the public schools in our area are not allowed to wear certain colors because of gangs. Kids are not allowed to use hand gestures associated with gangs. Kids are not allowed to take weapons or contraband to school properties.

My point is that kids in our public schools are often detained for issues with the color of their clothing, a hand gesture and perceived contraband or weapons.

For a kid to show up at school, soon after the 9-11 anniversary, with a device that looks like something other than a clock, that kid should be questioned.

If this device was noticed by Fed Ex or UPS for air freight, it would be flagged.

The reality is this kid disassembled a clock and re-assembled it to make it look bomb like and put it in a brief case. This made his re-assembled clock look even more like a bomb, imo. 

As far as the teachers and police go,were they not just following protocol ?

Bill


----------



## TUGBrian (Sep 18, 2015)

the only flaw in your logic is that with zero tolerance policies...the item doesnt actually have to be dangerous to other kids to have school administrators sequester the child and call law enforcement.

you can go dig up plenty of articles where kids have been suspended for bringing cap guns, empty rifle casings, unloaded weapons, etc etc into schools (either accidentally or deliberately)...and similar outcomes have occurred...and none of those items posed any threat to anyone in the school.


----------



## SueDonJ (Sep 18, 2015)

Even if you see something in this story that leads you to believe that the overreaction by teachers and school staff can be excused, there's still nothing to justify questioning the 14YO by law enforcement without his parents being aware or present.  If you think that would be done on a routine basis to every 14YO kid  in America who does something similar, well, I simply disagree.

What I find interesting is that many of the people (not talking specifically about TUGgers) who think the school/police overreaction here is justified, are the same people who generally are in favor of under-reacting or not reacting at all to this country's overall culture of violence as well as specific incidents of home-grown violence.  Hmmmmmmm.

I still don't understand why the kid was suspended.  Once the police were called in and determined that it wasn't a weapon why didn't they just confiscate it, call the parents to come and get it, and let the kid go back to class?  It can't be that they determined that he meant for it to be a bomb hoax/threat because in that case they'd be justified in arresting him and they'd have enough for the arrest to stick.  It never would have blown up into Today's Twitter Cause because sane people recognize the need for bomb threats to be taken seriously regardless of whether the device is real or fake.  So why is he being punished at all?


----------



## SueDonJ (Sep 18, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> the only flaw in your logic is that with zero tolerance policies...the item doesnt actually have to be dangerous to other kids to have school administrators sequester the child and call law enforcement.
> 
> you can go dig up plenty of articles where kids have been suspended for bringing cap guns, empty rifle casings, unloaded weapons, etc etc into schools (either accidentally or deliberately)...and similar outcomes have occurred...and none of those items posed any threat to anyone in the school.



The Zero Tolerance school rules are clear and broad-scope - students cannot bring any weapons or weapon-like implements onto school property and students can't make any gestures that imply use of a weapon.  As stupid as the episode was with the kindergartner who fashioned a gun out of a chicken finger (which is probably the stupidest of all the examples,) his intent was to imply a weapon.  If the intent with this 14YO is the same then why aren't they telling us?  And why did they release him when they could still be holding/investigating him?


----------



## SueDonJ (Sep 18, 2015)

easyrider said:


> ... The father is or was a member of CAIR ( Council of African Islamic Relations ) which was found to have ties with Hamas and other terrorist groups. ...



If you dig deep enough you can find terrorist ties with every religious/cultural group that shares similarities with any terrorist groups.  It's because terrorists infiltrate and implicate these groups in order to deliberately spread suspicion over a wider swath so that law enforcement resources are spread thinly and unable to easily pinpoint actual terrorist groups.

And of course, it's also because they're useful recruitment bases.  But all reported "ties to terrorist groups" don't pan out to actual terrorist members or sympathizers.


----------



## easyrider (Sep 18, 2015)

> If the intent with this 14YO is the same then why aren't they telling us? And why did they release him when they could still be holding/investigating him?



Regarding intent, it may be that the boys father, a Sudanese immigrant who has been politically active in the USA with groups like CAIR and a two time presidential candidate of Sudan, is using this situation to bring light to Islamaphobia and Islamic relations. My guess is the boy is politically active.

The timing of this event shortly after the 9-11 anniversary may be insignificant, but it does raise eyebrows.

The police released him because they had no reason to actually hold him. I thought he was detained, not arrested. In one of our public high schools a kid brought a pellet gun to school and was detained along with a couple other kids. All three kids  were handcuffed and removed from school even though only one kid brought the pellet gun. 

I don't think that Ahmed was treated unfairly. He was treated like anyone else, imo.

Bill


----------



## easyrider (Sep 18, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> If you dig deep enough you can find terrorist ties with every religious/cultural group that shares similarities with any terrorist groups.  It's because terrorists infiltrate and implicate these groups in order to deliberately spread suspicion over a wider swath so that law enforcement resources are spread thinly and unable to easily pinpoint actual terrorist groups.
> 
> And of course, it's also because they're useful recruitment bases.  But all reported "ties to terrorist groups" don't pan out to actual terrorist members or sympathizers.



Your probably right but the groups associated with CAIR were proven in court to be associated with Hammas and other mid eastern terrorist groups. These are some of the groups, that currently, we as a country, are in conflict with.

Bill


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 18, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> there's still nothing to justify questioning the 14YO by law enforcement without his parents being aware or present.



In the school district that I worked for, there were city police officers assigned to every campus - in full uniform, with guns.   They literally worked at the high school every day - that was their job.  

When there was a serious problem, they did not wait for parents to show up or give permission.  Students were processed, and sometimes led off in cuffs - whether or not their parents showed up.

Many students were just questioned by the officer, and sent back to class, but their parents were not present.

I don't know if the law was followed in the specific case being debated here, but yes, it is standard procedure in high schools these days - at least in CA.


----------



## DazedandConfused (Sep 18, 2015)

This story reminds me of the 2009 Balloon Boy Hoax
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon_boy_hoax

Also, he DID NOT MAKE a clock, he took apart an existing digital clock and rearranged it in a case pretty sloppily - That is NOT INNOVATION.

In middle school, Ahmed said, he had been called "bombmaker" and a "terrorist."

According to Irving police, Ahmed’s case contained a digital clock that the student had taken apart and rearranged. Police said the student had the briefcase in his English class, where he plugged it into an electrical outlet and it started to make noise.

Ahmed told WFAA that his English teacher confiscated his case. A few hours later, the student said the principal and school resource officer pulled him out of class and questioned the high school freshman.

Officers said Ahmed was being “passive aggressive” in his answers to their questions, and didn’t have a “reasonable answer” as to what he was doing with the case.

Investigators said the student told them that it was just a clock that he was messing around with.

“We attempted to question the juvenile about what it was and he would simply only say it was a clock. He didn’t offer any explanation as to what it was for, why he created this device, why he brought it to school,” said James McLellan, Irving Police. 

Also his father has a interesting past

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/09/17/ahmed-mohamed-and-the-islamophobia-clock/

The New York Daily News reported this Wednesday about Ahmed Mohamed’s father, Mohamed ElHassan Mohamed:

One of the earliest instances of the standout citizen making national news was in 2011, when he sensationally stood up to an anti-Islamic pastor and defended the Koran as its defense attorney. That mock trial at a Florida church ended with the book’s burning, to ElHassan’s claimed shock. In an interview with the Washington Post at the time, the devoted Muslim said he’d take on Rev. Terry Jones’ challenge because the holy book teaches that Muslims should engage in peaceful dialogue with Christians.


----------



## davidvel (Sep 18, 2015)

wackymother said:


> Exactly! If they thought it was a bomb, why didn't they act like they thought it was a bomb?


You all are assuming that after looking at it they still thought it was a bomb. Per CNN article: 



> Irving Police Chief Larry Boyd said authorities were able to determine quickly that it wasn't a bomb, but they investigated Ahmed to determine whether he brought the device to school with the intention of creating alarm. It is against Texas law to use or possess a fake bomb with the intent to make someone believe that it is an explosive.



On another note, I am glad we have so many bomb experts here that can determine what is dangerous or not in an instant. We're all safe.

Funny:


----------



## davidvel (Sep 18, 2015)

DazedandConfused said:


> This story reminds me of the 2009 Balloon Boy Hoax
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon_boy_hoax
> 
> Also, he DID NOT MAKE a clock, he took apart an existing digital clock and rearranged it in a case pretty sloppily - That is NOT INNOVATION.
> ...


I think that your post illustrates that there are many facts we don't know, but likely will "leak" out over time to give a broader picture than the knee-jerk, "Everyone's racist and after the [insert group here]." 

I like that he didn't make the clock (Oh, poor more internet meme, the facts fail you again.)


----------



## Tia (Sep 18, 2015)

Our high schools and middle schools in a small city, county of 100K, have all had sheriff deputies as resource officers in them since my 24 yo was in 8th grade.


----------



## Beefnot (Sep 18, 2015)

I would not at all be surprised if when the facts all shake out, this hero Ahmed turns out to be less than noble in his intentions to bring a "clock" to school.


----------



## easyrider (Sep 18, 2015)

Beefnot said:


> I would not at all be surprised if when the facts all shake out, this hero Ahmed turns out to be less than noble in his intentions to bring a "clock" to school.




It turns out that Ahmed used a vintage radio shack alarm clock and removed the case and placed the guts of the alarm clock into a brief case shaped pencil box. For this he gets to visit the White House and MIT ? 

Bill

http://blogs.artvoice.com/techvoice...gineering-ahmed-mohameds-clock-and-ourselves/



> Ahmed Mohamad did not invent, nor build a clock. He took apart an existing clock, and transplanted the guts into a pencil box, and claimed it was his own creation.


----------



## DazedandConfused (Sep 18, 2015)

Bitcoin Foundation Exec Offers $250,000 Scholarship to Teen Arrested for Making Clock

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/0...cholarship-to-teen-arrested-for-making-clock/


----------



## DazedandConfused (Sep 18, 2015)

Here is the original clock he disassembled and reassembled to look like a bomb, oops, i mean clock in a case.






So there you have it folks, Ahmed Mohamad did not invent, nor build a clock. He took apart an existing clock, and transplanted the guts into a pencil box, and claimed it was his own creation. It all seems really fishy to me.


----------



## Ken555 (Sep 18, 2015)

Why should it matter if he built the clock or disassembled one? He was still mistreated, from what I can see.


Sent from my iPad


----------



## bogey21 (Sep 18, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> ......damned if you do, damned if you don't when you are in positions like that these days.



Agree.  I hear all the time the authorities saying "if you see something suspicious, call the police".  So if, as in this case, it turns out to be nothing, all Hell breaks loose.  If on the other hand it was a bomb and no one called the police, everyone who knew about the device would be criticized and probably have to go into hiding to avoid all the second guessers. 

George


----------



## Beefnot (Sep 18, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> Why should it matter if he built the clock or disassembled one? He was still mistreated, from what I can see.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad



Why does it matter? Because he is being represented as some sort of innocent inventor. If in fact he is a fraud, then the mistreatment was in disallowing him access to his parents. But mistreatment does not make one a hero.


----------



## DazedandConfused (Sep 18, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> Why should it matter if he built the clock or disassembled one? He was still mistreated, from what I can see.



Hmmm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States


----------



## Ken555 (Sep 18, 2015)

DazedandConfused said:


> Hmmm
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States




Though you only used one word in your post, I assume you are advocating humiliation and mistreatment as the first reaction, since that seems to be what happened in this instance.


Sent from my iPad


----------



## Ken555 (Sep 19, 2015)

Beefnot said:


> Why does it matter? Because he is being represented as some sort of innocent inventor. If in fact he is a fraud, then the mistreatment was in disallowing him access to his parents. But mistreatment does not make one a hero.




So if he's not a hero he doesn't deserve to be treated fairly? He should still have been suspended from class...for disassembling a clock? C'mon...


Sent from my iPad


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 19, 2015)

Aren't there 2 completely different issues here?

Was the student handled in a manner that was "legal," according to local law?  (Not "fair" - legal.)

Did the student bring the device with the intent to disrupt school, or was a an innocent mistake?

One does not cancel out the other.


----------



## Beefnot (Sep 19, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> So if he's not a hero he doesn't deserve to be treated fairly? He should still have been suspended from class...for disassembling a clock? C'mon...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad



Your first rhetorical question is just shadowboxing, debating a point that I never made.



DeniseM said:


> Aren't there 2 completely different issues here?
> 
> Was the student handled in a manner that was "legal," according to local law? (Not "fair" - legal.)
> 
> ...



Agree.


----------



## DazedandConfused (Sep 19, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> Though you only used one word in your post, I assume you are advocating humiliation and mistreatment as the first reaction, since that seems to be what happened in this instance.



You obviously have zero knowledge and experience with "zero tolerance policy" that is in place at most public schools

Here is a link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_tolerance_(schools)

A zero-tolerance policy in schools is a policy of punishing any infraction of a rule, regardless of accidental mistakes, ignorance, or extenuating circumstances. In schools, common zero-tolerance policies concern possession or use of illicit drugs or weapons. Students, and sometimes staff, parents, and other visitors, who possess a banned item for any reason are always (if the policy is followed) to be punished.

How was Ahmed mistreated and humiliated???

*THE FACT IS THAT AHMED BROUGHT A DEVICE THAT LOOKS LIKE A BOMB (to ordinary people) INTO A PUBLIC SCHOOL AND THAT IS A CRIME*

It is not up to the "English" teacher to dissect the device to determine if it had explosives or not, it is her job to report incidents. If this was a real bomb and she did not report it and kids were killed or injured, there would be tons of lawsuits and media attention as to how do school let this happen.

In addition, Ahmed was not completely transparent with the police and they made the decision to handcuff and take him to JV

* please note that I personally think there are lots of flaws with the zero tolerance policy and Ahmed should NOT have been placed in handcuffs, but that is only my opinion 


Media attention

Media attention has proven embarrassing to school officials, and the embarrassment has resulted in changes to state laws as well as to local school policies. One school board member gave this reason for changes his district made to their rigid policy: "We are doing this because we got egg on our face."[18]

    A Sandusky, Ohio high school student was suspended for 90 days and flunked, after school authorities searched him for drugs in September 1999, and found a broken pocketknife. He had used the knife to clean his golfing cleats.[19]
    After bringing a Cub Scouts dinner knife to school to eat his lunch, a six-year-old boy was ordered by Christina School District to attend an alternative school for students with behavioral problems for nine weeks. After a media uproar, the school board voted unanimously to reduce punishments for kindergartners and first-graders who take weapons to school to a 3-5 day mandatory suspension,[8][20] retaining the original definition of "weapons".[21]
    A third-grader, also in the Christina School District, was expelled for a year because her grandmother sent a birthday cake, and a knife for cutting the cake, to school. The teacher used the knife to cut the cake, and then reported her to the authorities as having a dangerous weapon. The expulsion was overturned and led to a state law that gave districts the ability to, "on a case-by-case basis, modify the terms of the expulsion."[22]
    Other cases in the Christina School District include a straight-A student who was ordered to attend "reform school" after a classmate dropped a pocket knife in his lap,[22] and in 2007, when a girl was expelled for using a utility knife to cut paper for a project.[22]
    Earlier in 2009, an Eagle scout was suspended for three weeks for having an emergency supply kit in his car, that included a pocket knife.
    A kindergartner was suspended in March 2010 for making a finger gun.[23]
    A kindergartner was suspended for 10 days in January, 2013 for referring to "shooting" a friend with a Hello Kitty bubble making gun.[24] The suspension was reduced to two days after the parent met with school officials.
    A second grader was suspended in March 2013 for biting a Pop-Tart into the shape of a mountain, which school officials mistook for a gun.[25][26][27][28][29]


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 19, 2015)

Ahmed was handcuffed. He was arrested. He wasn't merely suspended or sent to another school. He was arrested. 

Then he was denied access to his parents. He's a juvenile and has a right to have a parent or guardian present during police questioning. 

I feel like some of you have never met nerdy tinkerers. Whether the clock was a novel invention or a reworking of an existing clock doesn't matter at all. This kind of activity by engineering types is normal and usually innocent. 

I also really wonder about why so many people are so quick to claim it "looked like a bomb." I have virtually zero knowledge in weapons. I've never shot a gun and I've never seen a bomb. But BASIC common sense tells me there are two elements of a bomb: the explosive part and the trigger/timer/detonation part.  Ahmed's clock didn't have anything about it that appeared explosive. Nothing.  I mean I guess if you've never seen the inside of a computer, never tinkered, don't know anyone who does, never even installed a thermostat or broken an electronic device and seen inside... Maybe you just get confused when you see wires. But I really really don't understand the level of ignorance required for thinking Ahmed's clock was a bomb.


----------



## vacationhopeful (Sep 19, 2015)

VegasBella;1805703.....  I mean I guess if you've never seen the inside of a computer said:
			
		

> I taught my 2 nieces (age 5 and 7) HOW to take their parents' computers apart as the parents were less than willing to upgrade the kids' machines. It was sort of funny that when they went back home and were exploring all the computers at home ... they got NEW and better equipment for themselves after "explaining WHAT was inside the box."
> 
> Both parents were highly paid professionals then ... now both girls (under 27) have PhDs in medical fields - very computer smart.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ken555 (Sep 19, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> Ahmed was handcuffed. He was arrested. He wasn't merely suspended or sent to another school. He was arrested.
> 
> Then he was denied access to his parents. He's a juvenile and has a right to have a parent or guardian present during police questioning.
> 
> ...




Exactly.


Sent from my iPad


----------



## ondeadlin (Sep 19, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> Ahmed was handcuffed. He was arrested. He wasn't merely suspended or sent to another school. He was arrested.
> 
> Then he was denied access to his parents. He's a juvenile and has a right to have a parent or guardian present during police questioning.
> 
> I feel like some of you have never met nerdy tinkerers. Whether the clock was a novel invention or a reworking of an existing clock doesn't matter at all. This kind of activity by engineering types is normal and usually innocent.



This.  

Like America, TUG breaks down into two groups on this thread:  1. Those who recognize it's perfectly OK and understandable for the school to investigate the situation, but it went  way too far; 2. Those who are basically making up reasons to back the school and justify putting a 14-year-old in handcuffs despite the fact they already knew he represented no threat.

And if you're in the second group, sorry, you look like an Islamaphobe to me.

Which, you know, you should probably understand give that you're making your own nefarious conclusions with very little evidence.


----------



## TUGBrian (Sep 19, 2015)

Just so I am clear, despite not 1 but 2 of this kids teachers who both saw the device in person in the classroom either identified it as a possible bomb, or in the case of the science teacher could easily see how it could be identified as a bomb and specifically warned the child against carrying it around and or showing it to other people....that it requires some ridiculous level of ignorance (according to some here) for a normal person to misinterpret said device as a bomb...based on an out of focus far away picture of the device on the internet?  That is the sole basis for your expert bomb identification analysis?

Lets also not miss the point that it didnt actually have to BE a bomb to not only violate the school policy, but break state law...its been repeated a number of times now..not sure why it wont sink in.  Perhaps its just easier to ignore facts during a debate...*shrug

and lastly, 

1. the school didnt put him in handcuffs, the police did
2. the police didnt put him in handcuffs until after he refused to answer simple questions about what the device was, and what it was for.


----------



## ace2000 (Sep 19, 2015)

I think we all should lighten up a bit.  This is definitely not a story that interested me, but I think I'm more fascinated by the TUG discussion than the actual event that took place.  I'm not going to pass judgement on what the teachers and the other school officials thought about this device.  It looks more a bomb device than a clock to me.  Sorry, but I can definitely have understanding for a teacher in the classroom here.


----------



## DazedandConfused (Sep 19, 2015)

ondeadlin said:


> This.
> 
> Like America, TUG breaks down into two groups on this thread:  1. Those who recognize it's perfectly OK and understandable for the school to investigate the situation, but it went  way too far; 2. Those who are basically making up reasons to back the school and justify putting a 14-year-old in handcuffs despite the fact they already knew he represented no threat.
> 
> ...



I am of the opinion that we should provide safe learning environments for our kids and if someone does something to jeopardize that (even if it was a joke) then they deserve some form of punishment.

Anyone that is smart enough to build a clock, oops I mean disassemble an old radio Shack clock and reassemble it in a black brief case, oops I mean pencil box, should be smart enough to know that this creation would cause people to be concerned at school - and not to play the race card, but if this kid was bullied as a middle schooler and called a terrorist or bomber, then that is even more reason NOT to bring a clock, that looks like a bomb, into school. 

What do you think of these "nice boys"


----------



## Patri (Sep 19, 2015)

ondeadlin said:


> This.
> 
> Like America, TUG breaks down into two groups on this thread:  1. Those who recognize it's perfectly OK and understandable for the school to investigate the situation, but it went  way too far; 2. Those who are basically making up reasons to back the school and justify putting a 14-year-old in handcuffs despite the fact they already knew he represented no threat.
> 
> ...




I think it is the other way around. You have a phobia about people you THINK are Islamaphobes. Whenever I hear a kid brought a bomb or gun to school, my first thought is not that is it a Muslim child. Exactly the opposite. Most of the kids who have shot up a classroom or planted a bomb are white. Most of the kids who have been punished for just being kids in a crazy world, are white. 
If being put in handcuffs is the worst thing that ever happens to Ahmed in hopefully 80+ years of life, he is one lucky guy.


----------



## Conan (Sep 19, 2015)

"When 14-year-old Ahmed Mohamed, a high school student in Irving, Texas,  was pulled out of class Monday and into a room where four police  officers were waiting, this is how one of the officers responded to his  appearance: "Yup. That's who I thought it was." The officer reportedly  said this after taking one look at Mohamed, the Dallas Morning News reports. Mohamed said he and the officer had never seen each other before. "
http://mic.com/articles/125400/texa...amed-after-arrest-that-s-who-i-thought-it-was


----------



## DazedandConfused (Sep 19, 2015)

Nice haul Ahmed


----------



## Beefnot (Sep 20, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> Just so I am clear, despite not 1 but 2 of this kids teachers who both saw the device in person in the classroom either identified it as a possible bomb, or in the case of the science teacher could easily see how it could be identified as a bomb and specifically warned the child against carrying it around and or showing it to other people....that it requires some ridiculous level of ignorance (according to some here) for a normal person to misinterpret said device as a bomb...based on an out of focus far away picture of the device on the internet? That is the sole basis for your expert bomb identification analysis?
> 
> Lets also not miss the point that it didnt actually have to BE a bomb to not only violate the school policy, but break state law...its been repeated a number of times now..not sure why it wont sink in. Perhaps its just easier to ignore facts during a debate...*shrug
> 
> ...



Preach, brother. But you might want to stop trying confuse VeganBella and Ken555 with facts and logic and common sense.  It forces them to dig thru the internet that much harder to reinforce their obstinacy in finding likeminded hyper-PC veneration for a 14 year old who put together a super crude piece of highly suspicious looking crap.


----------



## Ken555 (Sep 20, 2015)

Beefnot said:


> Preach, brother. But you might want to stop trying confuse VeganBella and Ken555 with facts and logic and common sense.  It forces them to dig thru the internet that much harder to reinforce their obstinacy in finding likeminded hyper-PC veneration for a 14 year old who put together a super crude piece of highly suspicious looking crap.




That's really unnecessary, insulting, and belittles the opinions some of us have. We may not agree, but at least there's some respect for those who clearly don't agree...is it so hard for you to do the same in return? This is an especially silly post from you given my numerous previous posts on TUG about requiring facts before reaching conclusions. See my earlier posts on this topic and you'll find my comments that we don't have all the facts. FWIW, we still don't. Almost everything is still just conjecture, though there seems to be enough support of the belief that there was definitely wrong decisions made by the school and police. 

It certainly seems a lot of people are supporting the kid and while this doesn't mean anything regarding the actual facts of the event, it is rather telling that this particular incident generated this response. I'm also sure you're aware of the sensitivity surrounding this particular family, their religion, and the possible impact these facts may have had in their community and how they were viewed by others. I'm sure we will hear more about this in the coming weeks.

It's not mutually exclusive to believe in proper security for our schools and the ability for creativity and expression in myriad forms.


Sent from my iPad


----------



## Ken555 (Sep 20, 2015)

In reading more about this online it seems there is an opinion that while he did not make the clock completely he probably started with bought components and simply connected them. This is not the same as buying a clock and taking it apart. This isn't all that uncommon a process for anyone in learning how to create/assemble electronics. Any of you remember Heathkit? 

From the picture of the clock that I've seen online, it seems - to me - to be a real stretch to think it's a bomb. Some of you have stated that it's "highly suspicious" or similar and wondered how a teacher should be able to tell what it is, therefore the blame resides on the kid. The entire box is small (it apparently is this child's pencil box: http://www.amazon.com/Vaultz-Locking-Pencil-Inches-VZ01479/dp/B001BXZ28K) and the largest component is the digital time display. Where's the explosive? This reminds me of the time many thought WMD were easy to spot...


Sent from my iPad


----------



## ace2000 (Sep 20, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> From the picture of the clock that I've seen online, it seems - to me - to be a real stretch to think it's a bomb. Some of you have stated that it's "highly suspicious" or similar and wondered how a teacher should be able to tell what it is, therefore the blame resides on the kid. The entire box is small (it apparently is this child's pencil box: http://www.amazon.com/Vaultz-Locking-Pencil-Inches-VZ01479/dp/B001BXZ28K) and the largest component is the digital time display. Where's the explosive?



You describe the box as small - and it is.  Now take a look at the picture in post #68 above, and then think about all of the wires and components crammed into that 8" box.  How is a teacher going to know if the box contains an explosive or not?  It's definitely suspicious, that's for sure.  I don't even blame the school for calling the police.

What we really don't know for sure is how the kid responded to questioning.  Was he aggressive and belligerent with the police?  Was he cooperative?  We don't know those answers for sure and we may never know.


----------



## DazedandConfused (Sep 20, 2015)

How to bomb a school:

1. Take a perfectly good digital alarm clock apart
2. Cut up a perfectly good metal case
3. Mount the alarm clock guts in to the metal case
4. Make sure the alarm clock can activate the "alarm" function
5. Attach an explosive trigger to the alarm output
6. Set the alarm to go off in class
7. Put some sort of explosive in the case attached to the trigger
8. Go to school with contraption
9. Wait for alarm to go off.

What Ahmed did:

1. Take a perfectly good digital alarm clock apart
2. Cut up a perfectly good metal case
3. Mount the alarm clock guts in to the metal case
4. Make sure the alarm clock can activate the "alarm" function
5. x
6. Set the alarm to go off in class
7. x
8. Go to school with contraption
9. Wait for alarm to go off. 

According to Biil Mahr:
And if what it had been a bomb, he posited. “So the teacher’s just supposed to see something that looks like a bomb and be, ‘Oh, wait, this might just be my white privilege talking?’” Maher joked. “ ‘ I sure don’t want to be politically incorrect, so I’ll just let it go.’ ”

Maher, however, does not deny that the fact that Ahmed is Muslim played a role in escalating the incident. “It’s not the color of his skin,” he said. “For the last 30 years, it’s been one culture that has been blowing shit up over and over again.”

My favorite tweet so far is from FLAVOR FLAV:
‏@FlavorFlav Sep 17
#iStandWithAhmed ~ STOP Clock Blocking!!


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 20, 2015)

easyrider said:


> It turns out that Ahmed used a vintage radio shack alarm clock and removed the case and placed the guts of the alarm clock into a brief case shaped pencil box.


He may have or he may not have. That's one theory that seems to be making it's way around right wing news sources. That theory has not been promoted in mainstream news and the only evidence backing up the theory is one person's analysis of the photo (who, like me and many others, does not see anything explosive about the photo). For the record, it's the same photo that TugBrian here thinks is not a good enough photo for me to ask "if this looks like a bomb, which part of it looks explosive?" 



bogey21 said:


> Agree.  I hear all the time the authorities saying "if you see something suspicious, call the police".  So if, as in this case, it turns out to be nothing, all Hell breaks loose.  If on the other hand it was a bomb and no one called the police, everyone who knew about the device would be criticized and probably have to go into hiding to avoid all the second guessers.


Here's the thing though: They determined that it was not a bomb and they arrested Ahmed anyway. They arrested him saying he was doing a "bomb hoax." The problem with that is that he never claimed it was a bomb and never tried to joke with anyone about it. He maintained that it was a clock from the beginning.

Like others have pointed out, if they ever actually seriously thought it was a bomb they would have evacuated the school until experts analyzed it. That's how "suspicious items" are treated. That's NOT how this was treated. 




ondeadlin said:


> This.
> 
> Like America, TUG breaks down into two groups on this thread:  1. Those who recognize it's perfectly OK and understandable for the school to investigate the situation, but it went  way too far; 2. Those who are basically making up reasons to back the school and justify putting a 14-year-old in handcuffs despite the fact they already knew he represented no threat.
> 
> And if you're in the second group, sorry, you look like an Islamaphobe to me.


I agree. 
References to 9/11 in this thread point to just that. There was NOTHING substantial about this case that related to 9/11. It didn't happen on the anniversary of 9/11 and it wasn't an explosive or terrorist event. The ONLY thing that relates the two is Islamaphobia.

If you think you do not have some level of racist bias, please take some implicit bias tests conducted by Harvard. Take the ones about:
weapons
religion
race
Arab-Muslim
Here's the link to take the test: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html
And then please share your results here 



TUGBrian said:


> Jit didnt actually have to BE a bomb to not only violate the school policy, but break state law...its been repeated a number of times now..not sure why it wont sink in.  Perhaps its just easier to ignore facts during a debate...*shrug
> 
> and lastly,
> 
> ...


These school policies about weapons are about actual weapons or about children pretending something is a weapon when it isn't. It's about violence. 

So it's not about whether or not something looks like a weapon to a handful of people who don't know anything about that type of weapon; it's about whether the child is pretending it's a weapon. Ahmed repeatedly claimed it was a clock and that is all. He never claimed it was a bomb. He was not committing a bomb hoax. 

Do you see the difference between your golden poptart boy and Ahmed? Poptart boy was pretending to have a gun. He was playing in a violent manner. Ahmed however was tinkering. He made a clock. He never pretended it was a bomb. 

He never "refused to answer" questions. He simply answered them the way you would if you were innocent. *"Irving Police spokesman Officer James McLellan told the station, 'We attempted to question the juvenile about what it was and he would simply only tell us that it was a clock.'"* (link). If you were being asked "Why did you build a pretend bomb?" when you had only built a clock, how would you respond?


----------



## ace2000 (Sep 20, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> For the record, it's the same photo that TugBrian here thinks is not a good enough photo for me to ask "if this looks like a bomb, *which part of it looks explosive*?"



When you ask this question, you appear to be uninformed.  Would you answer this question - What would need to be added to that box - which was stuffed full of loose wires and a digital clock - would've proved to you that it was a bomb related device?  Have you ever seen what plastic explosives look like?  By your continued posts, you indicate that you haven't.  

Do you recall the story about the shoe bomber and how the explosives were in his shoe?  It's not a stretch to think that a stuffed box with visible wires and clock _may _contain explosive materials.


----------



## Luanne (Sep 20, 2015)

And I keep going back to, if they felt it even might be a bomb, why wasn't the school evacuated and the bomb squad called?


----------



## vacationhopeful (Sep 20, 2015)

Luanne said:


> And I keep going back to, if they felt it even might be a bomb, why wasn't the school evacuated and the bomb squad called?



Really does NOT take much to make a bomb ... the material causing the BOOM could have been anywheres including the janitor's cart in the hall, the locker he uses, the backpack/bookbag he was might have in his possession, in a desk slot or ANYWHERES in the room. But the TRIGGER mechacism could very well have been real ... only a real technician in a lab with gauges could offer MORE than a wild guess. The police caution on the SIDE of ERROR in dealing with a person they did NOT KNOW and who appear to "pooh pah" their questions.

They had him ... restrained and separated from his "Stuff" ... how fast could he blow up the world if he remained "loose"? I guess the police DID NOT WANT TO FIND OUT as they wanted to go home after work.

As for the picture of this boy with his LOOT PILE ... only two words comes to my mind .... FUTURE COPYCATS!


----------



## Tia (Sep 20, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> As for the picture of this boy with his LOOT PILE ... only two words comes to my mind .... FUTURE COPYCATS!




Couldn't agree more. 

Whole thing just does not feel right, the media reports inaccurately/incompletely all the time I expect. I will never forget the presidential election where my oldest (now 24) was coloring in states blue or red as they were announcing the winners on National TV. Of course as it turned out it was before the official count was in, so he had both colors on several when the real count came in. :annoyed:


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 20, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> As for the picture of this boy with his LOOT PILE ... only two words comes to my mind .... FUTURE COPYCATS!



Exactly, and this media circus is certainly not going to make schools more liberal about enforcing security rules.  If anything, it will make them even more security conscious.


----------



## Beefnot (Sep 20, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> That's really unnecessary, insulting, and belittles the opinions some of us have. We may not agree, but at least there's some respect for those who clearly don't agree...is it so hard for you to do the same in return? This is an especially silly post from you given my numerous previous posts on TUG about requiring facts before reaching conclusions.



Yes, it is admittedly difficult for me to respect another's opinion under certain circumstances. The call for facts did not preclude you from drawing conclusions based on ideological bias. 

 In any case, this supposedly innovative invention from this genius 14 year-old looked like a bomb or an attempt to resemble one. In either case, it was wholly appropriate for a teacher to report it. Up to this point, there should be no disagreement with my statement, none. 

I presume the police were called in, or at least the arrest part happened, because Ahmed, for whatever reason, did not give folks a warm and fuzzy feeling about the innocence of his handiwork. It is my presumption, possibly wrong. Maybe he had an attitude, maybe he would only say "it is just a clock" without providing additional explanation or context, or maybe I am giving too much credit to school officials or law enforcement. But irrespective, it is not unreasonable to see that even when it became clear that the contraption was not actually explosive, a person could still be in a lot of trouble.

What I do believe is that Ahmed's parents should have been called and interrogation conducted under their supervision.


----------



## Luanne (Sep 20, 2015)

They thought it was a bomb but didn't evacuate or call the bomb squad. They didn't think it was bomb, but handcuffed the boy and didn't let him call his parents. So, which was it? Thought it was a bomb, or not?


----------



## visor (Sep 20, 2015)

Luanne said:


> So, either they believed it might have been a bomb, and in that case the school should have been evacuated and the bomb squad called.  Or, they didn't think it was a bomb, but they called the police and took the boy out in handcuffs.  It just seems to have been handled wrong....to me.  Security in the schools is one thing, but this was just wrong.


They likely assessed that it wasn't a bomb, so didn't call for bomb squad... otherwise they wouldn't be sitting around the device on the table having a nice chat with Ahmed, the teachers, principal and the officers. 

Imho the officers and teachers just wanted to teach him a lesson about not bringing in such devices in the future scaring the school needlessly, but they went a tad too far.


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 20, 2015)

They don't have to think it's a real bomb to arrest him.  If they thought he was trying to _disrupt school_ with a device that looked like bomb - they could arrest him.

Now, 5 people are going to jump in and say he did it with intent, and 5 others are going to say he was an innocent victim - but the bottom line is that no one knows what his _intentions_ were.

Based on the responses in this thread, I thank many of you would be surprised by how many high school students get arrested every day.


----------



## Luanne (Sep 20, 2015)

visor said:


> They likely assessed that it wasn't a bomb, so didn't call for bomb squad... otherwise they wouldn't be sitting around the device on the table having a nice chat with Ahmed, the teachers, principal and the officers.
> 
> Imho the officers and teachers just wanted to teach him a lesson about not bringing in such devices in the future scaring the school needlessly, but they went a tad too far.



A tad too far?????    Handcuffed and taken out in view of other students.  Denied access to his parents.

What would they have done if they'd thought it actually was a bomb?


----------



## TUGBrian (Sep 20, 2015)

makes me curious as to what you feel the penalty for bringing a fake bomb to school should be?


----------



## Luanne (Sep 20, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> makes me curious as to what you feel the penalty for bringing a fake bomb to school should be?



Me?

First of all, it doesn't appear to be a fake bomb to everyone.  It wasn't presented that way, it doesn't appear he was trying to scare or intimidate anyone.  But, I don't know his intentions, and neither does anyone here.

Also, how do you tell a fake bomb from a real bomb?  Where were the experts who knew this?  No one from the bomb squad was called in to determine if it was fake.

So, we assume that the authorities in charge knew this clock, as Ahmed claimed it to be, was a fake bomb.  Again, questioning who made this determination?

Maybe his parents should have been contacted, and he should have been taken to the police station, but not questioned until his parents were present.

If they knew it was a fake bomb, and not a clock, handcuffs may have been appropriate.  But who, and when, was that decision made?


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 20, 2015)

Parents don't have to be present for a student to be questioned.  I know people keep saying that, but it's not true.  Police officers who work at high schools question kids all day, every day.


----------



## Luanne (Sep 20, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Parents don't have to be present for a student to be questioned.  I know people keep saying that, but it's not true.  Police officers who work at high schools question kids all day, every day.



Okay, I'll buy that.

One question. Was he arrested before he talked to his parents?  When were they contacted?  I'm having trouble finding an account of exactly what happened.


----------



## TUGBrian (Sep 20, 2015)

Luanne said:


> Me?
> 
> First of all, it doesn't appear to be a fake bomb to everyone.  It wasn't presented that way, it doesn't appear he was trying to scare or intimidate anyone.  But, I don't know his intentions, and neither does anyone here.
> 
> ...



not sure that answers my question....we werent there...but two of his teachers made it very clear that it could have been mistaken for a bomb.

I would just like to know for all the folks that think this was over the top, what punishment would you deem fit for a child bringing a fake bomb to school?


----------



## visor (Sep 20, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> not sure that answers my question....we werent there...but two of his teachers made it very clear that it could have been mistaken for a bomb.
> 
> I would just like to know for all the folks that think this was over the top, what punishment would you deem fit for a child bringing a fake bomb to school?


The intent should decide the punishment. There was absolutely no intent. There should be more grace in situations like this instead of a knee reflex that occurred like this.


----------



## Luanne (Sep 20, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> not sure that answers my question....we werent there...but two of his teachers made it very clear that it could have been mistaken for a bomb.
> 
> I would just like to know for all the folks that think this was over the top, what punishment would you deem fit for a child bringing a fake bomb to school?



If it were determined it was a fake bomb, and again I go back to WHO is making that determination?  A couple of teacher who thought it looked suspicious vs one teacher who didn't?  If the student says it wasn't a fake bomb but just a clock, do we not believe him?  This is where is gets tricky.  If it's a real bomb, that can be determined.  But if it's an assumption it's a fake bomb and not just someone's opinion?

So, if there was a determination made it was a fake bomb then the student should be detained.  Whether that be at the school or the police station, I don't know.  The parents, and possibly an attorney should be contacted at some point during the questioning.  After that, I'm not sure.

P.S.  How do you decide between fake bomb and not a fake bomb?


----------



## Ty1on (Sep 20, 2015)

visor said:


> The intent should decide the punishment. There was absolutely no intent. There should be more grace in situations like this instead of a knee reflex that occurred like this.



You are assuming there was no intent.  

Also, intent is a terrible thing to punish, because it can so easily be camouflaged.  imo, actions should be punished based on the face value of the actions themselves, not their intent or outcomes.


----------



## TUGBrian (Sep 20, 2015)

so if I bring a loaded gun to school, but have no intent to use it...I should see no penalty?

I dont think the zero tolerance policies have intent anywhere in them, as if they did by default they wouldnt actually be zero tolerance policies, but would be "somewhat tolerant" policies.

while some folks may continue to argue if he did or didnt deliberately make the device look like a bomb, and then bring it to school....that distinction has nothing to do with the school policy he violated.


----------



## Luanne (Sep 20, 2015)

Ty1on said:


> You are assuming there was no intent.
> 
> Also, intent is a terrible thing to punish, because it can so easily be camouflaged.  imo, actions should be punished based on the face value of the actions themselves, not their intent or outcomes.



And that's the thing.

Do you assume intent, or no intent?  That's the hard part to prove.

And if there was intent, what was it?  He showed it to a teacher, he didn't hide it.  He told that teacher it was a clock.


----------



## Luanne (Sep 20, 2015)

Needed to rewrite completely


----------



## visor (Sep 20, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> so if I bring a loaded gun to school, but have no intent to use it...I should see no penalty?
> .


He brought a clock, said it was a clock. 

It would be different if he brought a bomb and said it was a bomb, right?


----------



## Luanne (Sep 20, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> so if I bring a loaded gun to school, but have no intent to use it...I should see no penalty?



You don't see any difference between a loaded gun and a fake bomb?



> ....that distinction has nothing to do with the school policy he violated.



Exactly what school policy did he violate?


----------



## TUGBrian (Sep 20, 2015)

Luanne said:


> You don't see any difference between a loaded gun and a fake bomb?



according to the logic above, if there was no intent...the rules should be different no?

what if the gun wasnt loaded?  thus equally as harmless as the fake bomb/clock?




> Exactly what school policy did he violate?



are you really questioning if there is or isnt a school policy against bringing a fake bomb with you to class?

perhaps im just reading that wrong.


----------



## Luanne (Sep 20, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> according to the logic above, if there was no intent...the rules should be different no?
> 
> what if the gun wasnt loaded?  thus equally as harmless as the fake bomb/clock?


Really?






> are you really questioning if there is or isnt a school policy against bringing a fake bomb with you to class?
> 
> perhaps im just reading that wrong.



How do YOU know it was a fake bomb he brought to class.  He said it was a clock.  Do you have some inside knowledge?  Is there a school policy against bringing a clock?

I'm done.  Obviously I'm not explaining myself well.

There is a divide on how this was handled and all we do is go back and forth.


----------



## ace2000 (Sep 20, 2015)

Luanne said:


> How do YOU know it was a fake bomb he brought to class.  He said it was a clock.  Do you have some inside knowledge?  Is there a school policy against bringing a clock?



Let's just split the difference and call it a clock that happens to look like it could be a bomb.  Anyone disagree?   

Yes, there probably is a school policy against bringing a device that looks like a bomb to school.  If there isn't a policy, there should be.  Yes, the police may have been aggressive in taking him away in cuffs, but we have no idea how the exchange went with Ahmed and the police during the questioning.  Hopefully that clears it up for you.


----------



## Luanne (Sep 20, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> Let's just split the difference and call it a clock that happens to look like it could be a bomb.  Anyone disagree?
> 
> Yes, there probably is a school policy against bringing a device that looks like a bomb to school.  If there isn't a policy, there should be.  Yes, the police may have been aggressive in taking him away in cuffs, but we have no idea how the exchange went with Ahmed and the police during the questioning.  Hopefully that clears it up for you.



Nope not at all since I wasn't there.


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 20, 2015)

Regarding some people's assumption that there will be copycats, I kind of doubt it. Even if kids try it I would hope that teachers are going to be a bit more careful about assuming that a box of wires is a hoax bomb. 

HOWEVER, this was not the first time that a student's interested in science/techy stuff/tinkering has gotten them in trouble with school. Here's a case about a girl who made a volcano demonstration that was mistaken for a bomb: http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-gi...tances-ahmed-mohamed-advice/story?id=33838741

Regarding intent: The police statement on this matter says:
"Under Texas law, a person is guilty of possessing a hoax bomb if he possesses a device that is intended to cause anyone to be alarmed, or in reaction of any time by law enforcement officers. "
http://www.vox.com/2015/9/16/9339427/ahmed-arrest-irving-police

Sooo... intent matters. If Ahmed didn't intend for the clock to be a hoax bomb then it appears he cannot be guilty of that. Here is the law: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/PE/10/46/46.08
which clearly states that intention is necessary.



DeniseM said:


> Parents don't have to be present for a student to be questioned.  I know people keep saying that, but it's not true.  Police officers who work at high schools question kids all day, every day.


Yes, they can question students up to a point, but after a child has been arrested, the parents should be contacted and questioning should stop. 

I'm assuming this is correct:
"The juvenile’s parents are required to be promptly notified when a child is taken into custody under §52.02(b). The parent is also allowed to know the reason the child was taken into custody."
http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/juvenile-law--rights-of-parents

What I don't know is for exactly how long he was in custody before and after being handcuffed and transported to processing or when his parents were notified. It sounds like they weren't notified until he was at processing, which might technically qualify as "prompt" in the eyes of the law but I personally think is unreasonable. Kids who are caught with drugs, for example, in Vegas high schools have their parents called immediately - called from the school, not from processing or juvy.



TUGBrian said:


> not sure that answers my question....we werent there...but two of his teachers made it very clear that it could have been mistaken for a bomb.


Actually, one teacher simply said something akin to "don't show it to other teachers" which does NOT mean the same thing as "people will think that's a bomb."
The other teacher sent him to the principal where everything went down. So that's not exactly a "warning" that he could have acted upon.



TUGBrian said:


> I would just like to know for all the folks that think this was over the top, what punishment would you deem fit for a child bringing a fake bomb to school?



And I would like to know people's results to the implicit bias tests.



TUGBrian said:


> so if I bring a loaded gun to school, but have no intent to use it...I should see no penalty?


A loaded gun is inherently dangerous. 



TUGBrian said:


> what if the gun wasnt loaded?  thus equally as harmless as the fake bomb/clock?



Responsible gun handling requires that ALL guns be treated as if they were loaded. http://www.usacarry.com/no-such-thing-unloaded-firearm-ever/

The same is not true of all science experiments, computers, electrical engineering projects, or tinkering projects. 

---
For those of you interested in tinkering, Make Magazine has some clocks you can build:
http://makezine.com/2015/09/16/stand-with-ahmed-5-clocks-you-can-make/

as well as a diagram of Ahmed's clock:


----------



## ace2000 (Sep 20, 2015)

Luanne said:


> Nope not at all since I wasn't there.



Well, help us clear it up for you.  What part of my post do you disagree with?


----------



## davidvel (Sep 20, 2015)

There are apparently a number of bomb, suspicious device, harmless object, IED, inert device, electronic components device, bombsquad, arson, hazmat, and clock experts here that can spot and instantly determine from a picture of the device that it is not dangerous. 

If you truly believe that if this device was brought to an airport, courthouse, or the White House, and that the trained experts would instantly "know" its a clock and not dangerous, then you should sign up for the job as you are truly unique. 

I understand the arguments about handcuffs, and questioning the student, but accept that this was a reasonable procedure given he refused to answer questions about the device and suspicions that it was not "innocently" brought to school to show his brilliance.


----------



## Luanne (Sep 20, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> Well, help us clear it up for you.  What part of my post do you disagree with?



I just said it wasn't clear to me, not that I disagreed.  Sorry that wasn't clear.


----------



## Tia (Sep 20, 2015)

The intent has nothing to do with anything around here, a friends kid several years ago accidentally had something like a paintball gun under his car seat partially in view that got reported and he was suspended for a time from HS. The vehicle was parked in the school parking lot. No tolerance policy here is in effect



visor said:


> The intent should decide the punishment. There was absolutely no intent. There should be more grace in situations like this instead of a knee reflex that occurred like this.


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 20, 2015)

Another piece of the puzzle here, which explains why so many techie-types are pro-Ahmed, is that building things inside cases or even suit-cases is VERY common. 

I have a techie friend who went to MIT and he said he had an electrical engineering class where he was given a suitcase full of components and instructed to build something in the case. This is a common way to build things. 

In other words, the fact that Ahmed's clock was inside a pencil case is not at all odd to techies or tinkerers. It's actually kind of standard.

--
Also, related to "copycats" I had forgotten there's actually a trend of these cases. Lots of techies and tinkerers have gotten in trouble because people misunderstood their projects. 

http://tech.mit.edu/V127/N40/simpson.html

http://boingboing.net/2007/01/31/led-ad-campaign-igni.html


----------



## visor (Sep 20, 2015)

Tia said:


> The intent has nothing to do with anything around here, a friends kid several years ago accidentally had something like a paintball gun under his car seat partially in view that got reported and he was suspended for a time from HS. The vehicle was parked in the school parking lot. No tolerance policy here is in effect


I suppose I'm naive about these things because I'm in Canada. Not easy living in the States.


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 20, 2015)

davidvel said:


> There are apparently a number of bomb, suspicious device, harmless object, IED, inert device, electronic components device, bombsquad, arson, hazmat, and clock experts here that can spot and instantly determine from a picture of the device that it is not dangerous.
> 
> If you truly believe that if this device was brought to an airport, courthouse, or the White House, and that the trained experts would instantly "know" its a clock and not dangerous, then you should sign up for the job as you are truly unique.



He was at school. He brought it to show a teacher. He wasn't at the airport or a courthouse. Standards are different at those places and people have the expectation that they may be perceived as a threat regardless of any actual threat. School is a place to learn, to be creative and inventive and to explore and collaborate. 

We're not saying anyone needs to know it's a clock. We're saying that the assumption that it's a bomb or hoax bomb - that it's something other than what the kid said it was - is an unreasonable assumption. I can see why someone might want to take a closer look. I can't understand why someone would want to handcuff the kid and charge him with a crime when there's really no evidence he committed the crime you want to charge him with.


----------



## ace2000 (Sep 20, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> We're saying that the assumption that it's a bomb or hoax bomb - that it's something other than what the kid said it was - is an unreasonable assumption.



That's where we disagree.  The device looks like it could be a bomb... period.  

Just to get a feel for the situation, try openly displaying a device that looks like a gun onto an airplane or into a bank.


----------



## Elan (Sep 20, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> That's where we disagree.  The device looks like it could be a bomb... period.



  The inside of your coffee pot and toaster oven look similar -- loose wires, transformer, rectifier, control board, display, etc.  Want me to send the bomb squad to your house?


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 20, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> That's where we disagree.  The device looks like it could be a bomb... period.
> 
> Just to get a feel for the situation, try openly displaying a device that looks like a gun onto an airplane or into a bank.



If it's so obviously a hoax bomb, then why were the charges dropped? 
If this case is so clear-cut, why won't they go to court with it?




Elan said:


> The inside of your coffee pot and toaster oven look similar -- loose wires, transformer, rectifier, control board, display, etc.  Want me to send the bomb squad to your house?



Sadly, this is a thing. It's called "swatting". People call up 911 and claim that someone "has a bomb" and then the SWAT team comes out and destroys their home, sometimes causing serious injuries. 
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...for-victim-and-he-has-the-injury-to-prove-it/


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 20, 2015)

I found this amusing:  Apple Co-founder, Steve Wozniak, recently admitted on Facebook that when he was a student, he was *arrested and spent the night in juvenile detention* for building a pretend bomb and taking it to school.

[Clearly, this harsh treatment ruined him for life!   ]

I don't think Ahmed Mohammed is a hero or a criminal, and holding him up as one or the other is _giving him way too much credit_ for something that was probably just a case of immature decision making.

It will be interesting to see if he uses his notoriety in a positive way.

However, there is zero chance that this will cause schools to go easy on kids who bring stuff like this to school in the future.  Across America tonight, administrators are hoping and praying that some copy cat kid doesn't bring their homemade gizmo to school tomorrow.  

*Also - school districts do NOT want teachers trying to determine if a mysterious device that a student brings to school is a threat or not.  This is outside a teacher's job description and authority, and reporting it to Admin or student supervision is absolutely the correct procedure.


----------



## Talent312 (Sep 20, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> The device looks like it could be a bomb...



To me, it looks like some electronics and some wires.
But then, I have no training in what bombs look like, as you must...



Sent from my KFJWI using Tapatalk 2


----------



## ace2000 (Sep 20, 2015)

Talent312 said:


> To me, it looks like some electronics and some wires.
> 
> But then, I have no training in what bombs look like, as you must...
> Can you point out the explosive material?
> ...



Yes I have seen plastic explosives in my military career.  You obviously don't have a clue.  

The picture of the case displays the wires and several items spread around outside of the case.  If everything is packed in the case, you or the teacher involved have no idea if there were plastic explosives hidden underneath - especially someone with zero training.  Do you recall the shoe bomber story?  It doesn't require a whole lot of material.  The key to understanding between us is that it *might* have been a bomb.  It turned it out it wasn't, but there was no way to know for sure.  That's all I'm saying.


----------



## vacationhopeful (Sep 20, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> ....
> It will be interesting to see if he uses his notoriety in a positive way.
> ..
> 
> ...


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 20, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> It is already POSITIVE for his pile of loot ... and his free trips.



This is not the same as him using this experience in a positive way in the future.  Only time will tell.


----------



## Beefnot (Sep 21, 2015)

The pro-Ahmed crowd has become so entrenched that he could come right out and say "yeah I kinda knew it would get a reaction when I brought it in", and they would absolutely find ways to continue to defend him.  It is not about logical reasoning for this crowd.  Most of us on the other side are simply realists who find that  ideology and political correctness are clouding sound reasoning. When someone finds no irony or dissonance in saying "I am not an expert in explosives or electronics, but I could tell that it was not a bomb of any kind. You think it might resemble a bomb? Oh so now you are a bomb expert are you?", then that is a leading indicator that a reasoned discourse may be futile. They are too far gone to realize that they are so far gone.  And so it goes.


----------



## Ken555 (Sep 21, 2015)

Beefnot said:


> The pro-Ahmed crowd has become so entrenched that he could come right out and say "yeah I kinda knew it would get a reaction when I brought it in", and they would absolutely find ways to continue to defend him.  It is not about logical reasoning for this crowd.



I'm still reading today's posts on this thread, but I have to say this is simple utter nonsense. You believe that the other side is unreasonable, when I (I can only speak for myself) want facts, and have always said as much. There still isn't enough, at least from what I've read, to conclude anything other than it wasn't a bomb, the kid was cuffed and questioned, there was clear innuendo by the police that this was more than a simple situation (this leads to one of those forbidden topics on TUG), etc etc. 

Stop trying to simplify this incident. Stop trying to insinuate that the "other side" is illogical. You aren't helping your cause by lowering yourself to a new level. 

And now, I'm sure, you'll find yet another way to suddenly make this all my fault. 


Sent from my iPad


----------



## TUGBrian (Sep 21, 2015)

If a complete stranger on the internet feels they have a better grasp on the situation than two of the childs own teachers who both:

1. Were actually present for the event being discussed
2.  had up close and personal contact with the "Device"
3.  see and interact with the child every day
4. came to the conclusion that it had the potential to be a threat under the schools zero tolerance party.

then I dont feel that further argument is going to change your opinion on the matter.

shall just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Beefnot (Sep 21, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> I'm still reading today's posts on this thread, but I have to say this is simple utter nonsense. You believe that the other side is unreasonable, when I (I can only speak for myself) want facts, and have always said as much. There still isn't enough, at least from what I've read, to conclude anything other than it wasn't a bomb, the kid was cuffed and questioned, there was clear innuendo by the police that this was more than a simple situation (this leads to one of those forbidden topics on TUG), etc etc.
> 
> Stop trying to simplify this incident. Stop trying to insinuate that the "other side" is illogical. You aren't helping your cause by lowering yourself to a new level.
> 
> ...




 Your synthesis of my post thus embodies my post.



TUGBrian said:


> If a complete stranger on the internet feels they have a better grasp on the situation than two of the childs own teachers who both:
> 
> 1. Were actually present for the event being discussed
> 2. had up close and personal contact with the "Device"
> ...



 You are a smart guy.


----------



## Ty1on (Sep 21, 2015)

The danger, to me, isn't in copycats bringing in pencilcase clocks to try and get their 15 minutes, it's Daesh recruiting some kid to bring in a real IED with the expectation that school security would relax because of this backlash.


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 21, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> The key to understanding between us is that it *might* have been a bomb.  It turned it out it wasn't, but there was no way to know for sure.  That's all I'm saying.



Using that "logic" any electronic could be a bomb and thus any kid could be arrested and accused of possessing a hoax bomb. 

But this is the USA and we have a principle that people are innocent until PROVEN guilty. There is no proof. None.


----------



## Pens_Fan (Sep 21, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> Using that "logic" any electronic could be a bomb and thus any kid could be arrested and accused of possessing a hoax bomb.
> 
> But this is the USA and we have a principle that people are innocent until PROVEN guilty. There is no proof. None.



That's true.  Any kid could be arrested for doing that.

You don't have to be PROVEN guilty to be arrested, You have to be PROVEN guilty to be convicted.


----------



## ace2000 (Sep 21, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> Using that "logic" any electronic could be a bomb and thus any kid could be arrested and accused of possessing a hoax bomb.
> 
> But this is the USA and we have a principle that people are innocent until PROVEN guilty. There is no proof. None.



You're missing one major point.  It is against Texas law to use or possess a fake bomb with the intent to make someone believe that it is an explosive.  

That may have been why he was arrested.  He may have been belligerent during questioning, we don't know.


----------



## Roger830 (Sep 21, 2015)

Scientist Richard Dawkins labels junk looking clock in the box not an invention but a fraud.

"The scientist and writer slams Ahmed Mohamed for claiming the clock was his 'invention' and hits out at tech firms that have rushed to offer him invitations and freebies.
Dawkins also questions whether the teenager was, in fact, trying to get arrested.
'He disassembled & reassembled a clock (which is fine) & then claimed it was his "invention" (which is fraud),' Dawkins wrote on Twitter."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-Ahmed-Mohamed-claiming-clock-invention.html


----------



## DazedandConfused (Sep 21, 2015)

Notice that Ahmed has not been on any talk shows like the Tonight Show, etc or even any of the hard core news shows like the ones on Sunday morning where most people with this instant fame would gravitate. Heck, he did not even up on softball shows like The View.

This may be done to shield the kid from answering hard questions on his own.

Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban stated that when he talked on the phone Ahmed Mohamed, his sister was “giving him the answer” on Friday’s broadcast of HBO’s “Real Time.”

Cuban said, “I talked to the kid, he’s from Dallas, and I’ve talked to the people in the school district. The kid is super smart kid, science geek. We talked about science, but while I’m talking to him on the phone, as I ask him a question, ‘Tell me what happened,’ because I’m curious, right? His sister, over his shoulder, you could hear, listening to the question, giving him the answer.


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 21, 2015)

Pens_Fan said:


> You don't have to be PROVEN guilty to be arrested, You have to be PROVEN guilty to be convicted.


Which is probably why they dropped the charges, because there was no proof.

So why do so many of you want to argue that you knew this kid's state of mind? How are you so certain that he had the intent to scare people? Why do you want to judge him? Why do you want to punish him?




DazedandConfused said:


> Notice that Ahmed has not been on any talk shows like the Tonight Show, etc or even any of the hard core news shows like the ones on Sunday morning where most people with this instant fame would gravitate. Heck, he did not even up on softball shows like The View.
> 
> This may be done to shield the kid from answering hard questions on his own.



Why do you want to infer meaning from silence? There are so many possibilities.

Maybe his parents don't want this to go to his head so they aren't letting him talk. 

Maybe he just doesn't have much to say about it and just wants it all to be over. 

Maybe he doesn't feel comfortable or safe talking until he's signed up for his new school.

Maybe he's just following his lawyer's instructions (any lawyer worth their salt would probably say "stay quiet; don't talk about it").


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 21, 2015)

If you want to keep a low profile, you don't post pictures of your haul on the internet.  

It's more logical to think that his family and/or attorney are concerned about what he might _say_ in an unstructured conversation - a valid concern.  

Really bright kids often don't have good  social skills, and after all, he is only 14.  Have you met a 14 year old boy recently?  They are half-baked at that age.


----------



## davidvel (Sep 21, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> If you want to keep a low profile, you don't post pictures of your haul on the internet.
> 
> It's more logical to think that his family and/or attorney are concerned about what he might _say_ in an unstructured conversation - a valid concern.
> 
> Really bright kids often don't have good  social skills, and after all, he is only 14.  Have you met a 14 year old boy recently?  They are half-baked at that age.


And sometimes, fully baked.


----------



## vacationhopeful (Sep 21, 2015)

Well, that kid can NEVER go back to the "old country"! He is just too dang _Americanized_ .... as most kids from the OLD COUNTRY (from where ever he is from) would NEVER EVER display their "loot" like a half-baked "brain dead" "hip-hop" artist-ee ... who is front and forward in the photo.

Only thing missing is, Was the photo a selfie?


----------



## Beefnot (Sep 21, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> Which is probably why they dropped the charges, because there was no proof.



Agreed.  But subtly trying to change your position, nice try.



VegasBella said:


> Why do you want to infer meaning from silence? There are so many possibilities.
> 
> Maybe his parents don't want this to go to his head so they aren't letting him talk.
> 
> ...



All legitimate "maybes" too.  You err on the side of bloodletting from your heart.  Others are more skeptical under the circumstances.  But hey, if it comes out that Ahmed was extremely forthcoming throughout his interrogation, was respectful, not confrontational, truly had no idea that his "invention" could be perceived as provocative and/or his parents were unaware of it, then I will raise my hand and say my bad.  Until then, the Ahmed worship will continue to baffle me.


----------



## WinniWoman (Sep 22, 2015)

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/09/18/real-story-istandwithahmed/


----------



## WinniWoman (Sep 22, 2015)

Here is what I just posted on my FB page about this:Well, well! Just as I suspected from the beginning. The media again tells the wrong story. The President of the United States- again- his judgement totally wrong. Again, trying to make like the police did something wrong. AGAIN!! Creating an appearance that they are anti-Muslim.

 And, now it has also come out that this kid's parents have an interesting background. His father is a Sudanese activist and is involved with "Cair"- the Muslim Brotherhood organization. By the way, this kid didn't invent anything. He bought a clock at Radio Shack and reconfigured it into a suitcase. And- he was not assigned a project in the first place! He did this on his own to impress a teacher he said. The teacher said it was nice but told him not to take it to his other classes. He ignored her and took it anyway.It started to beep in another classroom!! Read the story!! This kid was used as a pawn by his own father! This was a SET UP!. Come on!!! Wouldn't a Muslim parent tell his son in this day and age not to take something like this to school? 

The kid is smart. He knew they would realize this wasn't an original invention. He used it for a fear factor- for attention. And it put the school district in a very difficult position. The family could sue now? You would think-ok- let them sue and the truth will come out- but- just as in the Pine Bush case, the school would be forced to settle since it would be so expensive. (Sound familiar Pine Bush?). With the settlement money, could use it to further their Cair organization causes. Just great! They won't need it for poor little innocent Ahmed's college education since the set up helped him to get a free scholarship to MIT! Can you imagine if one of any of our sons or daughters brought something like that to school? No free college tuition, I can tell you that! Would have been booted right out- there is a Zero Tolerance rule in these schools!!! Oh- I guess that is only for certain groups. 

And now there is a story coming out that his sister, who I think works at a TV station, says in the past she was arrested for a bomb threat by the same school! Really? Total bullshit!!!! The kid wouldn't answer questions the police asked, yet as soon as Care cameras came out he was talking non-stop. Can you imagine if something like this was brought to a Hillary Clinton campaign? You think the Secret Service wouldn't take that thing down immediately?! From the very beginning I knew this story stunk. And, of course, the media is nowhere to be found now that the truth has come out. Don't want to offend Muslims or make the President look bad!


----------



## WinniWoman (Sep 22, 2015)

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/09/...e-if-ahmed-mohameds-clock-was-purposeful-hoax


----------



## Talent312 (Sep 22, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> The President of the United States- again- his judgement_[sp]_ totally wrong... ... Don't want to offend Muslims or make the President look bad!



BTW... "In American English, 'judgement' is generally considered a misspelling of judgment for all uses of the word, notwithstanding individual preferences." -- The Grammarist

Otherwise, the post seems more like a political tirade and the later reference to Fox News being more revealing of a poster with an axe to grind, than informative.
.


----------



## Roger830 (Sep 22, 2015)

The prior posts by mpumilia confirm what was stated here earlier, that the clock in the box was not an invention.

What purpose would putting working clock components in a box be but to trigger a bomb or create hostility.


----------



## Roger830 (Sep 22, 2015)

Talent312 said:


> BTW... "In American English, 'judgement' is generally considered a misspelling of judgment for all uses of the word, notwithstanding individual preferences." -- The Grammarist
> 
> Otherwise, the post seems more like a political tirade and the later reference to Fox News being more revealing of a poster with an axe to grind, than informative.
> .



Apparently attacking the spelling and messenger invalidates message.


----------



## ace2000 (Sep 22, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/09/...e-if-ahmed-mohameds-clock-was-purposeful-hoax



So we now know some more "facts" and it appears that Ahmed took apart a clock and stuffed it into a pencil box and called it his "invention".  And still many feel it doesn't take the appearance of a potential bomb.  

Somehow he comes out of this with full college scholarship offers, all kinds of electronic toys, and his family has set up a gofundme account in the boys name and is collecting thousands of dollars as we speak.  

And there also appears to plenty of "duped" TUG members on this thread that now have egg on their face.  This has actually been one of the most entertaining threads I've seen in awhile.


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 22, 2015)

Beefnot said:


> if it comes out that Ahmed was extremely forthcoming throughout his interrogation, was respectful, not confrontational, truly had no idea that his "invention" could be perceived as provocative and/or his parents were unaware of it, then I will raise my hand and say my bad.



That is basically what has come out. The police's statement says " The student only would say it was a clock". None of the police or school admins have said he was "belligerent" or "confrontational" or "less than respectful." They said he wouldn't answer _why _he brought it to school, that's all.

The police's own press statement said:
*"there is no evidence to support the perception he intended to create alarm"*
http://cityofirving.org/DocumentCenter/View/16607


----------



## vacationhopeful (Sep 22, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> That is basically what has come out. The police's statement says " The student only would say it was a clock". None of the police or school admins have said he was "belligerent" or "confrontational" or "less than respectful." They said he wouldn't answer _why _he brought it to school, that's all. <snip>



Appears he was VERY well coached and this was NOT a spur of the moment act. It appears to have been *"planned" as a media event *by NON-SCHOOL unnamed person or persons. 

Expect more such crap.


----------



## ace2000 (Sep 22, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> The police's own press statement said:
> *"there is no evidence to support the perception he intended to create alarm"*
> http://cityofirving.org/DocumentCenter/View/16607



How come you didn't include this part of the release from your source?  


> The student only would say it was a clock and was not forthcoming at that time about any other details.
> Having no other information to go on, and taking into consideration the device’s suspicious appearance and the safety of the students and staff at MacArthur High School, the student was taken into custody for possessing a hoax bomb.


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 22, 2015)

Roger830 said:


> What purpose would putting working clock components in a box be but to trigger a bomb or create hostility.



You have obviously not met any tinkerers. For the record, MIT is a pretty conservative place. They are not bleeding-heart liberals. They and most of the other Ahmed supporters are simply people who recognize a tinkerer.  

The social/political aspect of this is about the culture of distrust and fear of things that are different, new, or misunderstood. It's about how so many people in power fear that which they don't understand. And it's about how these kinds of reactions to innocent behavior stifles innovation, creativity, and tinkering.






Here's an article about tinkerers that describes the essence of tinkering, for those of you who don't understand: http://fortune.com/2013/01/04/the-tinkerers-who-made-america-great/


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 22, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> Appears he was VERY well coached and this was NOT a spur of the moment act. It appears to have been *"planned" as a media event *by NON-SCHOOL unnamed person or persons.


This an absurd accusation. Where is your proof? 

Planning to pull a stunt of the nature you describe is incredibly dangerous and could have resulted in Ahmed's death. This was in Texas, after all, not New York or California. There is nothing about this event that makes me think it was planned.


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 22, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> How come you didn't include this part of the release from your source?



The important part is that the police never claimed he was confrontational or belligerent or any of the other claims people have made in this thread. *It sounds as though he was compliant and respectful* and simply didn't answer the question about why he brought it to school.

And I don't mean to belabor this point, but the police statement clarifies that *the police didn't have any evidence of a crime at the time that they arrested him. *


----------



## ace2000 (Sep 22, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> The important part is that the police never claimed he was confrontational or belligerent or any of the other claims people have made in this thread. *It sounds as though he was compliant and respectful* and simply didn't answer the question about why he brought it to school.
> 
> And I don't mean to belabor this point, but the police statement clarifies that *the police didn't have any evidence of a crime at the time that they arrested him. *



Just two things and I'm done.  You can't say he was being "compliant" and that he "simply didn't answer the question about why he brought it to school".  According to the report, he kept saying it was a clock and that is all he would answer in his replies to questioning.  That might  be construed as being non compliant by the police.  Just saying.  

And on your second point about having evidence... the police are not required to prove anything at the point of arrest - we keep telling you that and you keep saying the same thing again and again, so we have to keep replying with the same statement again and again.  

Let me provide to you why the police chose to take him into custody (one more time):


> The student only would say it was a clock and was not forthcoming at that time about any other details. Having no other information to go on, and taking into consideration the device’s suspicious appearance and the safety of the students and staff at MacArthur High School, the student was taken into custody for possessing a hoax bomb.


----------



## cgeidl (Sep 22, 2015)

*Nobody is to blame*

Why not treat this like a federal government problem and just say no one is responsible or to blame? The end result of this story may be the kid gets a free scholarship somewhere.


----------



## Tia (Sep 22, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> ....... and simply didn't answer the question about why he brought it to school.




imho That is exactly why one should really wonder why not??????????


----------



## Roger830 (Sep 22, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> You have obviously not met any tinkerers. For the record, MIT is a pretty conservative place. They are not bleeding-heart liberals. They and most of the other Ahmed supporters are simply people who recognize a tinkerer.
> 
> The social/political aspect of this is about the culture of distrust and fear of things that are different, new, or misunderstood. It's about how so many people in power fear that which they don't understand. And it's about how these kinds of reactions to innocent behavior stifles innovation, creativity, and tinkering.
> 
> ...



Just the opposite. I was brought up with erector and chemistry sets, model airplanes and model trains. Before I was 14, I had built a model layout in half of the attic of our house and wired by me to control two trains on the same track.

That's why I easily recognize this as something not very ingenuous or creative. In fact I suspect the child not above average IQ.


----------



## visor (Sep 22, 2015)

Tinkerers in this day and age are not these circuit builders or Lego masters, they are those 11-14 yr olds who are able to use computers to hack into govt websites just for fun.


----------



## WinniWoman (Sep 22, 2015)

Talent312 said:


> BTW... "In American English, 'judgement' is generally considered a misspelling of judgment for all uses of the word, notwithstanding individual preferences." -- The Grammarist
> 
> Otherwise, the post seems more like a political tirade and the later reference to Fox News being more revealing of a poster with an axe to grind, than informative.
> .



Sorry for the spelling issue. You are right. And yes, I was on a rant this morning. So what? And I want facts when reading/watching/listening to  news, not one sided subjective reporting, so I scan ALL the news, just not FOX.


----------



## WinniWoman (Sep 22, 2015)

All I know is the kid who chewed a pop tart into the shape of a gun never got a scholarship for his creativity or invited to the White House.


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 22, 2015)

A couple of thoughts:

mpumilia - a gentle suggestion:  I recommend that you go back to your post, click EDIT, and add paragraph breaks.

Vegas Bella - It would never have occurred to me to post a large picture of Tinkerbell to substantiate an argument.


----------



## vacationhopeful (Sep 22, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> Appears he was VERY well coached and this was NOT a spur of the moment act. It appears to have been *"planned" as a media event *by NON-SCHOOL unnamed person or persons.
> 
> Expect more such crap.





DazedandConfused said:


> Nice haul Ahmed





VegasBella said:


> This an absurd accusation. Where is your proof?
> 
> Planning to pull a stunt of the nature you describe is incredibly dangerous and could have resulted in Ahmed's death. This was in Texas, after all, not New York or California. There is nothing about this event that makes me think it was planned.




Really? In a developed state as Texas ... great schools, home of several Presidents, very large cities, corporate headquarters of many companies ... where his parents chose of ALL possible locations in USA to settle?

Well coached in words, actions, and then, look at that PHOTO (professional) ... well lighted, balance, artful display, news articles and just 2 days after your first post (HOW many days after the school "show & tell" of his "clock project"?). Does NOT his hair cut, dress code and scrubbed clean "look" not scream "PICTURE PERFECT" ... too perfect ... displaying loot that was gotten to him HOW - that fast, that complete, THAT QUICK?

Let's add into the mix ... which media outlets appear in Texas? And how soon? 

And where are HIS FRIENDS and HS buddies? 14 yo usually travel in packs of kids .. who would have ALL been ripping into the "loot" products .... every time the doorbell rang.

I have been around MULTIPLE 14 yo boys ... NONE of those genius (and YES, they are extremely smart and talented young men with 800 math SAT scores, top 5 US engineering university with HONOR grades (not telling as to not ID the boys), STEM HS programs, top 5% of HS class, etc. .... that boy is a media product.


----------



## Beefnot (Sep 22, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> Really? In a developed state as Texas ... great schools, home of several Presidents, very large cities, corporate headquarters of many companies ... where his parents chose of ALL possible locations in USA to settle?
> 
> Well coached in words, actions, and then, look at that PHOTO (professional) ... well lighted, balance, artful display, news articles and just 2 days after your first post (HOW many days after the school "show & tell" of his "clock project"?). Does NOT his hair cut, dress code and scrubbed clean "look" not scream "PICTURE PERFECT" ... too perfect ... displaying loot that was gotten to him HOW - that fast, that complete, THAT QUICK?
> 
> ...


 
Ok Linda, now please step away from the computer...




ace2000 said:


> Just two things and I'm done. You can't say he was being "compliant" and that he "simply didn't answer the question about why he brought it to school". According to the report, he kept saying it was a clock and that is all he would answer in his replies to questioning. That might be construed as being non compliant by the police. Just saying.
> 
> And on your second point about having evidence... the police are not required to prove anything at the point of arrest - we keep telling you that and you keep saying the same thing again and again, so we have to keep replying with the same statement again and again.
> 
> Let me provide to you why the police chose to take him into custody (one more time):


 
You are making too much sense. Please hammer don't hurt 'em....


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 22, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Vegas Bella - It would never have occurred to me to post a large picture of Tinkerbell to substantiate an argument.


It was posted for amusement and lightheartedness, not to substantiate anything. Geez...



mpumilia said:


> All I know is the kid who chewed a pop tart into the shape of a gun never got a scholarship for his creativity or invited to the White House.


Ummm, do you think he deserves one? 

And for the record, Ahmed got a scholarship to Space Camp, not college.


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 22, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> According to the report, he kept saying it was a clock and that is all he would answer in his replies to questioning.  That might  be construed as being non compliant by the police.



Actually, even children have the right to remain silent. Refusal to answer questions does not constitute noncompliance. Noncompliance is when someone refuses to comply with directions.


----------



## WinniWoman (Sep 22, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> It was posted for amusement and lightheartedness, not to substantiate anything. Geez...
> 
> 
> Ummm, do you think he deserves one?
> ...



Of course not! I was being sarcastic. neither of them do. But the pop tart kid REALLY did nothing wrong. The clock kid and his family used poor judgement in bringing something like that to school, which is against the rules of zero tolerance (and I am not completely for that rule). 

Sorry about the scholarship error. Was the space camp scholarship the MIT offer he got? I am on information overload.


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 22, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> It was posted for amusement and lightheartedness, not to substantiate anything. Geez...



OK - but "amusement and lightheartedness" is completely out of sync with your message and tone, so a picture of Tinkerbell is an odd choice.


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 22, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Sorry about the scholarship error. Was the space camp scholarship the MIT offer he got? I am on information overload.




He got an offer to tour MIT, something anyone can do. It wasn't really a prize, it was more a show of support. It was offered by one of the profs. 

Then also some students set up a large homemade clock on campus as another show of support. It was taken down, but carefully and respectfully.


----------



## Beefnot (Sep 22, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> Actually, even children have the right to remain silent. Refusal to answer questions does not constitute noncompliance. Noncompliance is when someone refuses to comply with directions.



Semantics, nice.  Also, everyone has the right to remain silent, no doubt. Everyone can also enjoy the privilege of getting arrested too if they choose to exercise that right. And let me stop you right there, please do not rehash the yadda yadda about innocent until proven guilty or related nonsense that is only relevant to judicial proceedings.


----------



## Beefnot (Sep 22, 2015)

We are seriously on borrowed time in this thread.


----------



## easyrider (Sep 22, 2015)

Yesterday, a suspicious item was left under a bridge. It was a small box. The bomb squad was called out to detonate this.

The definition of a suspicious package includes all of the components of Ahmeds clock. I believe the package was suspicious enough, especially at a school, for teachers and police to do exactly what they did.

https://emergency.ucmerced.edu/plan-procedures/suspicious-packages



> Things to Look For
> Suspicious packages might bear restricted endorsements such as "personal" or "private." This is important when the addressee does not normally receive personal mail at the office.
> The addressee's name and/ title might be inaccurate.
> Suspicious packages or articles might reflect distorted handwriting or the name and address might be prepared with homemade labels or cut-and-paste lettering.
> ...


----------



## Luanne (Sep 23, 2015)

easyrider said:


> Yesterday, a suspicious item was left under a bridge. It was a small box. The bomb squad was called out to detonate this.
> 
> The definition of a suspicious package includes all of the components of Ahmeds clock. I believe the package was suspicious enough, especially at a school, for teachers and police to do exactly what they did.
> 
> https://emergency.ucmerced.edu/plan-procedures/suspicious-packages



Yet they did not think it suspicious enough to call the bomb squad.


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 23, 2015)

A suspicious package is distinctly different from Ahmed's situation because a suspicious package, by definition, is not accompanied by the person who made it and who claims it's "just a clock."

Regarding beefnot's comments about the legality of the issue: the police needed "reasonable suspicion" that Ahmed possessed a hoax bomb in order to arrest him. IMO they didn't have that. 

Furthermore, something can be perfectly legal and still unjust. In fact, that's often how laws change.


----------



## davidvel (Sep 23, 2015)

The best quote I've found on this topic: 


> *"I think this wouldn't even be a question if his name wasn't Ahmed Mohamed*," said Alia Salem of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. (Cite)


100%, absolutely correct. 

Similar events happen to non-muslims every day at schools across this country with silly zero-tolerance policies. No one claims their arrests are due to their race, religion or country of origin. No tweets from government officals, or free (advertising) gear from game and toy makers.


----------



## easyrider (Sep 24, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> A suspicious package is distinctly different from Ahmed's situation because a suspicious package, by definition, is not accompanied by the person who made it and who claims it's "just a clock."
> 
> Regarding beefnot's comments about the legality of the issue: the police needed "reasonable suspicion" that Ahmed possessed a hoax bomb in order to arrest him. IMO they didn't have that.
> 
> Furthermore, something can be perfectly legal and still unjust. In fact, that's often how laws change.



Three years ago, in this very same school district, a girl maned Eyman Mohamed, the older sister of Ahmed Mohamed, was responsible for a bomb scare. This fact has been left out of the reasoning of Ahmed's clock which most agree, looks bombish.

Ahmed deliberately plugged his device into a wall outlet towards the end of the day, 6th period, intending to set the timer off after multiple teachers told him to "not show the device at school".




> The sister of the boy who brought a suspected hoax-bomb to his Texas high school said she was suspended from a school in a prior bomb scare. Her suspension occurred in 2009 while she was attending middle school in the same district.





Bill


----------



## wilma (Sep 24, 2015)

easyrider said:


> Three years ago, in this very same school district, a girl maned Eyman Mohamed, the older sister of Ahmed Mohamed, was responsible for a bomb scare. This fact has been left out of the reasoning of Ahmed's clock which most agree, looks bombish.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is there any credible source for this allegation?


----------



## Ty1on (Sep 24, 2015)

wilma said:


> Is there any credible source for this allegation?



http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/09/23/ahmeds-sister-admits-school-suspension-alleged-bomb-threat-3-years-earlier/


----------



## SmithOp (Sep 24, 2015)

wilma said:


> Is there any credible source for this allegation?




http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...med-moahmed-the-most-famous-boy-on-earth.html


Sent from my iPad using the strange new version of Tapatalk


----------



## SueDonJ (Sep 24, 2015)

Ty1on said:


> http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/09/23/ahmeds-sister-admits-school-suspension-alleged-bomb-threat-3-years-earlier/





SmithOp said:


> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...med-moahmed-the-most-famous-boy-on-earth.html ...



Both of those links contain the same quotes from Ahmed's sister, Eyman.  It looks like one is just repeating what's in the other:


> ... “I got suspended from school for three days from this stupid same district, from this girl saying I wanted to blow up the school, something I had nothing to do with.”
> 
> Eyman talks with the slightest lisp, almost imperceptible, but it becomes stronger as she gets emotional.
> 
> “I got suspended and I didn’t do anything about it and so when I heard about Ahmed, I was so mad because it happened to me and I didn’t get to stand up, so I’m making sure he’s standing up because it’s not right. So I’m not jealous, I’m kinda like—it’s like he’s standing for me.”



What she's saying has NOT been substantiated by any school or police officials so there's no "proof" that she was either unfairly targeted as a Muslim (as she says) or that she was actually involved in a bomb or hoax-bomb incident (as is being implied by those who believe that Ahmed is similarly involved.)

Neither one of the linked articles answered any of the questions.  Both lead to the assumption that it's as likely that Ahmed and his sister are victims of "terrorist profiling" as it is that they knowingly perpetrated bomb hoaxes.  In other words, the articles don't support or disprove Ahmed's intent.


----------



## wilma (Sep 24, 2015)

Ty1on said:


> http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/09/23/ahmeds-sister-admits-school-suspension-alleged-bomb-threat-3-years-earlier/



So, no credible source....


----------



## Ty1on (Sep 24, 2015)

wilma said:


> So, no credible source....



There is a Leftist source right below mine, if you find those more credible.


----------



## Ty1on (Sep 24, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> Both of those links contain the same quotes from Ahmed's sister, Eyman.  It looks like one is just repeating what's in the other:
> 
> 
> What she's saying has NOT been substantiated by any school or police officials so there's no "proof" that she was either unfairly targeted as a Muslim (as she says) or that she was actually involved in a bomb or hoax-bomb incident (as is being implied by those who believe that Ahmed is similarly involved.)
> ...



They can't be substantiated because the family refuses to sign a FERPA release.    Wouldn't you think if there were exonerating info, he would rush to sign that release?


----------



## SueDonJ (Sep 24, 2015)

Ty1on said:


> They can't be substantiated because the family refuses to sign a FERPA release.    Wouldn't you think if there were exonerating info, he would rush to sign that release?



No.  As a parent I wouldn't sign anything like that because I'd want to protect my children from any repercussions anytime down the road.  Even if it helps in one instance there's no telling if it will hurt in another.

In this particular case, also no.  It appears that these parents may have good reason to believe that their children are being singled out because of their religion/heritage, and, that they have maybe not received the protections that should have been afforded to them.  In their shoes I'd clam up, too.


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 24, 2015)

Side note:  If I was this kid's parents, this circus would drive me crazy!  I would send all the relatives home, lock the door, and turn off the phones.  Or maybe MOVE!


----------



## Ty1on (Sep 24, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> No.  As a parent I wouldn't sign anything like that because I'd want to protect my children from any repercussions anytime down the road.  Even if it helps in one instance there's no telling if it will hurt in another.
> 
> In this particular case, also no.  It appears that these parents may have good reason to believe that their children are being singled out because of their religion/heritage, and, that they have maybe not received the protections that should have been afforded to them.  In their shoes I'd clam up, too.



It appears more to me like they are milking this story for everything they can get.


----------



## SueDonJ (Sep 24, 2015)

Ty1on said:


> It appears more to me like they are milking this story for everything they can get.



It appears to me that they're taking everything they're being given without kowtowing to those who think that the onus is on them to prove their family member's innocence.  It's not, the onus is on the authorities to prove guilt.  And why shouldn't they take the loot - isn't that the American way?

How many here would suggest that allowing authorities to search our homes without a warrant is ever a good idea?  Or that signing a coerced confession in order to stop the process is ever a good idea?  Or that sacrificing our parental protections over our own children's well-being is ever a good idea?  None of us would, not if we're honest with ourselves and/or if we value our bestowed freedoms.

Ahmed is either guilty in which case it makes no sense that the charges were dropped, or he's innocent and the situation wasn't handled correctly.  Or, if you're willing to believe that sometimes prejudices really are at play, he's a victim of the "tell us, Mr. Smith, how long have you been abusing your wife?" system of justice in which the authorities say and do whatever it takes to imply guilt simply because they're in a position to do so.  This kid's parents are in a no-win situation - what's not known is whether the kid intended to put them there.


----------



## SueDonJ (Sep 24, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Side note:  If I was this kid's parents, this circus would drive me crazy!  I would send all the relatives home, lock the door, and turn off the phones.  Or maybe MOVE!



No kidding!  And I'd tell my kids to quit doing/saying whatever it is that they're doing and saying.  This situation is proving that the Kardashian tv shows and every other celebrity-worship medium in this country are harmful to our teenagers (who are already unable to function sanely most of the time!)


----------



## Ty1on (Sep 24, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> It appears to me that they're taking everything they're being given without kowtowing to those who think that the onus is on them to prove their family member's innocence.  It's not, the onus is on the authorities to prove guilt.  And why shouldn't they take the loot - isn't that the American way?
> 
> How many here would suggest that allowing authorities to search our homes without a warrant is ever a good idea?  Or that signing a coerced confession in order to stop the process is ever a good idea?  Or that sacrificing our parental protections over our own children's well-being is ever a good idea?  None of us would, not if we're honest with ourselves and/or if we value our bestowed freedoms.
> 
> Ahmed is either guilty in which case it makes no sense that the charges were dropped, or he's innocent and the situation wasn't handled correctly.  Or, if you're willing to believe that sometimes prejudices really are at play, he's a victim of the "tell us, Mr. Smith, how long have you been abusing your wife?" system of justice in which the authorities say and do whatever it takes to imply guilt simply because they're in a position to do so.  This kid's parents are in a no-win situation - what's not known is whether the kid intended to put them there.



Read the linked article below mine.  They are being advised how to maximize their gain from this.



> Abbas asks what the teenagers plan to do with all this exposure.
> 
> “What I’m saying is, like, scholarships and jobs can come from this, if you sit down and talk to the right people who have influence, that would be the best call. So you don’t wanna just ‘Oh, I wanna go on this show, and go on this show.’”


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 24, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> No kidding!  And I'd tell my kids to quit doing/saying whatever it is that they're doing and saying.  This situation is proving that the Kardashian tv shows and every other celebrity-worship medium in this country are harmful to our teenagers (who are already unable to function sanely most of the time!)



Agreed - I don't think this is a healthy situation for this young man, in the long run. 

And apparently he has been out of school for what, 2 weeks?

I don't think this circus is preparing this young man to fit in, and get along, and be successful at his new school.

14 year olds are very impressionable, and this one doesn't seem any more mature than the average 14 year old boy, so I don't think his extended 15 seconds of fame is going to serve him well in the long run.

The best thing his parents could do now, it shut it down, and get the family back to a normal life, and focus on getting him into a good school situation.


----------



## SueDonJ (Sep 24, 2015)

Ty1on said:


> Read the linked article below mine.  They are being advised how to maximize their gain from this.



Like I said, nothing wrong with taking whatever's offered, same with being picky and choosey about what they take and what they leave behind.  If things aren't offered they're in no position to make demands and will have no choices to make.


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 24, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> In their shoes I'd clam up, too.



Me too. 

No matter what you think Ahmed did, if you're a parent surely you can understand the desire to protect your child from harm of any kind. Staying silent/declining to sign disclosure waivers during legal troubles is exactly what any good parent should do.



DeniseM said:


> The best thing his parents could do now, it shut it down, and get the family back to a normal life, and focus on getting him into a good school situation.



There may be other things going on that we don't know about. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if they fear for Ahmed's safety at any school right now. He has probably received some threats. 

They say they're going to home school now. At first they were going to change schools but now they're going to home school. Perhaps the reason is that they genuinely fear for their children's safety.


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 24, 2015)

The issue with home schooling is whether or not there is an adult in the home who is qualified to home school a bright boy. 

A high quality independent study program, charter school, or internet school would be a better option for him.

I would fear for his safety too - and allowing the media circus to go on is not improving his security.


----------



## easyrider (Sep 24, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> Both of those links contain the same quotes from Ahmed's sister, Eyman.  It looks like one is just repeating what's in the other:
> 
> 
> What she's saying has NOT been substantiated by any school or police officials so there's no "proof" that she was either unfairly targeted as a Muslim (as she says) or that she was actually involved in a bomb or hoax-bomb incident (as is being implied by those who believe that Ahmed is similarly involved.)
> ...



His teachers said to put the device away. Ahmed turned the device on during 6th period. He disobeyed his teachers instructions and this resulted in his detainment. If he had chose to obey and put the stupid clock away none of this would have happened.

His intent was to be disruptive or he wouldn't have turned the device on at the end of the school day.

or... maybe he really is just an idiot. If he is an idiot, why is anyone interested in him in any way ? If this is the case, and Ahmed is not an idiot, then what would seem logical, is that he was being deliberately disruptive.

Bill


----------



## bogey21 (Sep 25, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> No matter what you think Ahmed did, if you're a parent surely you can understand the desire to protect your child from harm of any kind. Staying silent/declining to sign disclosure waivers during legal troubles *is exactly what any good parent should do*.



*I guess this makes me a bad parent*.  Facing a somewhat similar situation many years ago I pulled my Son out of the school and enrolled him in one of the Christian Schools.  My Daughter (who was still at the old school) liked the environment at his new school so much she asked to change too.  Best move I ever made.  It changed their lives in a very positive way.

George


----------



## VegasBella (Sep 25, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> The issue with home schooling is whether or not there is an adult in the home who is qualified to home school a bright boy.
> 
> A high quality independent study program, charter school, or internet school would be a better option for him.
> 
> I would fear for his safety too - and allowing the media circus to go on is not improving his security.



Agreed. But it is what it is. They said they're going to home school all three of their children. Personally, I think I'd rather move far away and restart than home school teen-agers. (I honestly can't think of many things much more difficult than home-schooling teens, haha.) But I can see maybe doing it short-term until we found the right location and school.

I'm not sure how much the parents can do to stop the media interest. I suppose they could be more silent on the matter. Perhaps that is what they should do. At the same time, they do believe an injustice has occurred and so they have to weigh righting an injustice against their children's best interests - the two goals may only conflict in the short-term and may sync up in the long-term. And obviously, the most difficult part is that there are likely varied best interests for the three children but they have to make a family decision about it all. Again, I think I would just move away if at all possible (but admittedly I have a pretty big bias against the south - I would never live there).



bogey21 said:


> *I guess this makes me a bad parent*.  Facing a somewhat similar situation many years ago I pulled my Son out of the school and enrolled him in one of the Christian Schools.  My Daughter (who was still at the old school) liked the environment at his new school so much she asked to change too.  Best move I ever made.  It changed their lives in a very positive way.
> 
> George


My comment about good parents wasn't about keeping them in a school or moving them, it was about how Ahmed's parents chose not sign the FERPA which would to allow the school to disclose confidential information to the press. I was saying that was a decision any good parent would make.


----------



## Beefnot (Sep 26, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> My comment about good parents wasn't about keeping them in a school or moving them, it was about how Ahmed's parents chose not sign the FERPA which would to allow the school to disclose confidential information to the press. I was saying that was a decision any good parent would make.



That is a bunch of malarkey. They are "good parents" for not signing the FERPA, while simultaneously pimping Ahmed and milking this thing as much as they can. I am sure you believe what you are saying, which is quite comical (or saddening).


----------



## Ironwood (Sep 26, 2015)

There is much speculation on the web suggesting the so called clock invention was a fraud.    Ahmed merely took apart an existing clock selling on eBay and put the guts in a pencil box.


----------



## DeniseM (Sep 26, 2015)

Ironwood said:


> There is much speculation on the web suggesting the so called clock invention was a fraud.    Ahmed merely took apart an existing clock selling on eBay and put the guts in a pencil box.



Yes - this info has been posted in this thread multiple times already...


----------



## SueDonJ (Sep 26, 2015)

Beefnot said:


> That is a bunch of malarkey. They are "good parents" for not signing the FERPA, while simultaneously pimping Ahmed and milking this thing as much as they can. I am sure you believe what you are saying, which is quite comical (or saddening).



I think it's understood that any one decision doesn't automatically qualify a parent as "good" or not.  Maybe a different wording gets this particular point across?  _"Not voluntarily signing away theirs or their children's rights or privacy protections is a good decision for any parents to make."_


----------



## Ironwood (Sep 26, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Yes - this info has been posted in this thread multiple times already...



DeniseM...yes, thanks!   I was following this thread when it first went up then picked it up again just reading the last two pages so I missed a good chunk of the conversation before posting.


----------



## Beefnot (Sep 26, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> I think it's understood that any one decision doesn't automatically qualify a parent as "good" or not. Maybe a different wording gets this particular point across? _"Not voluntarily signing away theirs or their children's rights or privacy protections is a good decision for any parents to make."_



Fair enough.


----------

