# Buy both resale and Westin Flex?



## Workcanwait (Sep 11, 2018)

My husband and I travel several times a year, generally 3-4 night trips to AZ, CA, Cabo, Carribean.   We have 4 kids but in teens and 20s so travel with us maybe once a year and getting less frequent.  Typically we like 4-5 star resorts and have decent flexible income.  Never have considered a timeshare until we went to Westin Kierland and heard about Flex program which intrigued us quite a bit.  

Have been researching quite a bit and understand concerns about buying from developer.  Is it ever a good option?   Considering buying resale Westin in HI and a Flex program through Westin - developer said they will retro the resale property and with explorer program and buying flex program can get around 600,000 SPG points.  

I’ve slways steered away from timeshares but now very intrigued about this and trying to make a smart decision.  Thanks in advance.


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## KevSki (Sep 11, 2018)

Vistana will retro a resale with a developer purchase, but you need to bring in $20,000 new money. One way to offset that 20K is to purchase resale mandatory resorts and trade them back to Vistana. Vistana will credit you 80% of the original purchase price. We did this several times  and found a few SVV units for $1 each. There's another similar thread floating around here with more opinions that you should read.


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## byeloe (Sep 11, 2018)

Don't buy flex.  Buy a mandatory resort, where you would like to travel if possible.  Then you can use your home resort or the staroptions when you don't go to your home resort.  If you buy resale in Maui then you would be better off renting out you unit instead of usingthe staroptions, since your maintenance fees are higher


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## DeniseM (Sep 11, 2018)

I would not buy Flex - it's more expensive, and it's voluntary, which kills the resale value.

"Voluntary" means that the deed loses it's Staroptions when you transfer it to a buyer.

As mentioned above, it's a much better value to buy resale - at a mandatory resort.  

"Mandatory" means that the deed retains it's Staroptions - even when purchased on the resale market.

There are 5 mandatory resorts, but only two of them are considered to be cost effective Staroption purchases, because the maintenance fee is too high on the other 3:

a. If a resort is *Staroption "Mandatory,"* it means that when the week is sold to a new owner (resale) the Staroption value of the week transfers to the new owner, and the new owner has the right to exchange his timeshare in the Starwood Vacation Network. These resorts are Staroption Mandatory:

* Harborside at Atlantis - _high maintenance fee & transfer fee_

** Vistana Villages (Bella and Key West phases only) - cheap or free to buy but higher MF that Kierland*

* Westin St. John (Virgin Grand - Hillside only)- _high maintenance fee & transfer fee_

* Westin Ka'anapali & Westin Ka'anapali-North- _high maintenance fee_

** Westin Kierland Villas - Lower maintenance fee than Vistana Villages, but higher buy-in.*​


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## vacationtime1 (Sep 11, 2018)

byeloe said:


> Don't buy flex.  Buy a mandatory resort, where you would like to travel if possible.  Then you can use your home resort or the staroptions when you don't go to your home resort.  If you buy resale in Maui then you would be better off renting out you unit instead of usingthe staroptions, since your maintenance fees are higher



+1

A mandatory resort such as Kierland will retain much of its value; Westin Flex loses 90+% of its value immediately.  Add to that that there is no reason to retro a Hawaii property; one uses or rents Hawaii properties because virtually every trade is a trade down.


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## okwiater (Sep 11, 2018)

Flex is not a bad product if you like and see yourself traveling to most of the resorts in the portfolio. The primary downsides are that you will pay a premium maintenance fee but will not have deeded ocean view or oceanfront in Hawaii, and the value of the ownership on the resale market will drop to about one tenth of the developer price. That said, if you want to travel to Palm Desert, Scottsdale, and Hawaii on a regular basis during the highest demand weeks (or for 3-4 night trips as stated), picking up a resale Westin Flex is not a bad move. I would not fork over $20k+ to the developer as part of a trade/purchase deal though.

For your stated goals, I don’t think it’s necessarily the wisest move. Note that the Cabo property is part of Westin Aventuras, not Flex. So you would not be able to get there with a resale Flex ownership.

If you’re somewhat flexible with your travel dates and can plan in advance, you might be best off with a mandatory resale ownership, something like Westin Kierland or Westin St. John Virgin Grand phase. This would give you access to AZ or the Caribbean on a deeded basis, and StarOptions to be able to use any of the other Vistana resorts.


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## okwiater (Sep 11, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> * Westin St. John (Virgin Grand - Hillside only)- _high maintenance fee & transfer fee_



DeniseM is mostly right, except with regard to the 3-bedroom pool villas at Westin St. John. They do not have high maintenance fees or transfer fees. In fact, their maintenance fee is comparable to that of Westin Kierland, with the main difference being that with Kierland you get the added flexibility of a lockoff and a floating week. St. John was sold as fixed weeks.


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## Workcanwait (Sep 11, 2018)

KevSki said:


> Vistana will retro a resale with a developer purchase, but you need to bring in $20,000 new money. One way to offset that 20K is to purchase resale mandatory resorts and trade them back to Vistana. Vistana will credit you 80% of the original purchase price. We did this several times  and found a few SVV units for $1 each. There's another similar thread floating around here with more opinions that you should read.




Thanks.  I will look for those threads.  Interesting concept.  Does trading back to Vistana go towards the $20k new money??


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## Workcanwait (Sep 11, 2018)

okwiater said:


> Flex is not a bad product if you like and see yourself traveling to most of the resorts in the portfolio. The primary downsides are that you will pay a premium maintenance fee but will not have deeded ocean view or oceanfront in Hawaii, and the value of the ownership on the resale market will drop to about one tenth of the developer price. That said, if you want to travel to Palm Desert, Scottsdale, and Hawaii on a regular basis during the highest demand weeks (or for 3-4 night trips as stated), picking up a resale Westin Flex is not a bad move. I would not fork over $20k+ to the developer as part of a trade/purchase deal though.
> 
> For your stated goals, I don’t think it’s necessarily the wisest move. Note that the Cabo property is part of Westin Aventuras, not Flex. So you would not be able to get there with a resale Flex ownership.
> 
> If you’re somewhat flexible with your travel dates and can plan in advance, you might be best off with a mandatory resale ownership, something like Westin Kierland or Westin St. John Virgin Grand phase. This would give you access to AZ or the Caribbean on a deeded basis, and StarOptions to be able to use any of the other Vistana resorts.




The reason flex seemed attractive was we could travel for specific days vs whole weeks based on our schedules.  I thought we could use the flex points to book Cabo, just 8 months out.  A lot of our travel tends to be planned 3-4 months out not 8-12 months.  However, I don’t think I understood the devaluation aspect.  A lot to think about. Thank you.


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## grab (Sep 11, 2018)

KevSki said:


> Vistana will retro a resale with a developer purchase, but you need to bring in $20,000 new money. One way to offset that 20K is to purchase resale mandatory resorts and trade them back to Vistana. Vistana will credit you 80% of the original purchase price. We did this several times  and found a few SVV units for $1 each. There's another similar thread floating around here with more opinions that you should read.


What’s the title of this other thread. Tia


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## DeniseM (Sep 12, 2018)

> Thanks. I will look for those threads. Interesting concept. Does trading back to Vistana go towards the $20k new money??



No - $20K out of pocket.

Just to clarify - If you buy a mandatory resort on the resale market you would have Staroptions to exchange for ALL Vistana resorts, 8-0 months before check-in.  You don't have to buy anything from the developer to do this.  This is essentially the same as making reservations with FlexOptions.

But just because you have Staroptions, or Flexoptions, doesn't mean that there will be *availability* 3-4 months out.  With timesharing, people plan as early as possible, to get the reservations that they want. 

I'm sure the sales people made it seem like you can just reserve whatever you want at 3-4 months before check-in, but it's simply not true.  The sales people will say whatever it takes to get you to buy - THEY LIE.

To be quite honest with you, I don't think you are a good candidate to buy a timeshare, unless you can plan at least 8 mos. out.  It will be frustrating to try and make reservations 3-4 month out - because the prime resorts and dates will be gone.


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## okwiater (Sep 12, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> To be quite honest with you, I don't think you are a good candidate to buy a timeshare, unless you can plan at least 8 mos. out.  It will be frustrating to try and make reservations 3-4 month out - because the prime resorts and dates will be gone.



I completely agree with this. People who can only plan 3-4 months out are not good candidates for timeshares, but especially not for a Flex ownership since you’re way past the point of booking home resort reservations by that point.


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## LobsterHunter (Sep 14, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> No - $20K out of pocket.



Denise,
I love how much you know, but this is not entirely true.  As I mentioned in the retro thread, we were able to retro in two 148,100 properties, trade in 2 developer purchases & 2 re-sale purchases (both purchased for $1), use an explorer package (110k SP) and purchase 2 (148,100) Westin Flex properties (+ two 50k SP purchase incentives).  Our *out of pocket* was "only" $16k for the entire transaction.  Our 2 developer purchases were WKORN (EY & EOY, both IV).

Again, I am *NOT *pushing WF, but we already made a 10 day WF reservation for March of 2019 at WKOR and it was a confirmed OV unit instead of the IV units we used to own, and we would only have been able to make a 1 week reservation....just a data point.  I am waiting to see if we will actually be able to book any good ski weeks at WRF & will post if we have success/failure.


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## okwiater (Sep 14, 2018)

LobsterHunter said:


> Denise,
> I love how much you know, but this is not entirely true.  As I mentioned in the retro thread, we were able to retro in two 148,100 properties, trade in 2 developer purchases & 2 re-sale purchases (both purchased for $1), use an explorer package (110k SP) and purchase 2 (148,100) Westin Flex properties (+ two 50k SP purchase incentives).  Our *out of pocket* was "only" $16k for the entire transaction.  Our 2 developer purchases were WKORN (EY & EOY, both IV).
> 
> Again, I am *NOT *pushing WF, but we already made a 10 day WF reservation for March of 2019 at WKOR and it was a confirmed OV unit instead of the IV units we used to own, and we would only have been able to make a 1 week reservation....just a data point.  I am waiting to see if we will actually be able to book any good ski weeks at WRF & will post if we have success/failure.



Congratulations on a great deal. I interpret DeniseM's guidance to be "general" in nature, that is to say, it's generally true but as the corporate guidelines evolve, there will occasionally be instances where better deals are offered. The "new money" threshold when we purchased Sheraton Flex was only $10K, for example. On the other hand, the new money threshold for a Nanea purchase was $40K. It just depends on the property and timing, but in general, $20K is the normal number.


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## LobsterHunter (Sep 14, 2018)

Yes, I agree, everything changes.  In reality, our "new money" was only $8k per (retro'd) unit.  We did everything through the corporate sales line in Orlando.  Just saying, it's worth a call to see what they will do.


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## pacman777 (Sep 14, 2018)

That’s a great deal for retro!  I would jump on that or something similar but given the whole MVC acquisition and the unknown, I’m waiting to see what is rolled out to better integrate the different brands and systems. If they allow Vistana to join and trade within the Destination Club points program then the whole value of Vistana’s staroption trading system gets reduced.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 14, 2018)

It seems they have loosened the retro requirements for Flex in order to try to gobble up as many weeks as possible. Some people have been able to sell back mandatory and voluntary weeks and retro in additional weeks for little cost. They seem to want to stock the trusts with as many weeks as they can.


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## bizaro86 (Sep 14, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> It seems they have loosened the retro requirements for Flex in order to try to gobble up as many weeks as possible. Some people have been able to sell back mandatory and voluntary weeks and retro in additional weeks for little cost. They seem to want to stock the trusts with as many weeks as they can.



Based only on second hand reports what you are trading in seems to matter. People trading in Maui deeds are reporting lower thresholds, for example.


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## GoToAgent (Mar 13, 2019)

vacationtime1 said:


> +1
> 
> A mandatory resort such as Kierland will retain much of its value; Westin Flex loses 90+% of its value immediately.  Add to that that there is no reason to retro a Hawaii property; one uses or rents Hawaii properties because virtually every trade is a trade down.


Why would Westin Flex lose so much value immediately?


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## byeloe (Mar 13, 2019)

Because the ability to use your options to go anywhere in the VSN network at the 8 month mark, does not transfer should you want to sell it


GoToAgent said:


> Why would Westin Flex lose so much value immediately?


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## Sicnarf (Mar 13, 2019)

Westin flex losing much value is pure speculation!  Having access to Wkorv, wkorvn or Wrf 1 year out is much more valuable than SOs at 8 months out.  Assuming that Westin flex inventory/ availability continue to grow of course.


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## vacation dreaming (Mar 13, 2019)

Many options and negotiations might be possible but the most important point here is that availability will be extremely limited 3-4 months out.  People book everything up by 8 months out except for low demand locations, and those you can probably rent directly cheaply.  For example, you could probably find desert in the summer 3-4 months out but you would never find desert in March available.


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## GoToAgent (Mar 21, 2019)

vacation dreaming said:


> Many options and negotiations might be possible but the most important point here is that availability will be extremely limited 3-4 months out.  People book everything up by 8 months out except for low demand locations, and those you can probably rent directly cheaply.  For example, you could probably find desert in the summer 3-4 months out but you would never find desert in March available.


But with Westin Flex you can book the Desert and Hawaii 12 months out, so if you plan, you should be OK - correct?


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## mikkey12601 (Mar 22, 2019)

GoToAgent said:


> But with Westin Flex you can book the Desert and Hawaii 12 months out, so if you plan, you should be OK - correct?


Same question. The Westin flex they claim you get 12 months at the 7 properties, which seemed too good to be true. Granted expensive buy in


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## vacationtime1 (Mar 22, 2019)

GoToAgent said:


> But with Westin Flex you can book the Desert and Hawaii 12 months out, so if you plan, you should be OK - correct?





mikkey12601 said:


> Same question. The Westin flex they claim you get 12 months at the 7 properties, which seemed too good to be true. Granted expensive buy in



The answer depends completely on what precise weeks the trust owns.  We know that the trust will own a mix of ski resort weeks (which won't all be ski weeks), Hawaii weeks, and desert weeks (including both winter and summer weeks).

If too many flex trust owners try to reserve the ski weeks, the March desert weeks, and the summer Hawaii weeks, there may not be enough of these prime weeks to go around and many flex trust owners will be disappointed.


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## mikkey12601 (Mar 22, 2019)

vacationtime1 said:


> The answer depends completely on what precise weeks the trust owns.  We know that the trust will own a mix of ski resort weeks (which won't all be ski weeks), Hawaii weeks, and desert weeks (including both winter and summer weeks).
> 
> If too many flex trust owners try to reserve the ski weeks, the March desert weeks, and the summer Hawaii weeks, there may not be enough of these prime weeks to go around and many flex trust owners will be disappointed.


That makes sense, so its a lot of leftover weeks from each of the prime resorts.


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## celica7101 (Mar 23, 2019)

vacationtime1 said:


> The answer depends completely on what precise weeks the trust owns.  We know that the trust will own a mix of ski resort weeks (which won't all be ski weeks), Hawaii weeks, and desert weeks (including both winter and summer weeks).
> 
> If too many flex trust owners try to reserve the ski weeks, the March desert weeks, and the summer Hawaii weeks, there may not be enough of these prime weeks to go around and many flex trust owners will be disappointed.



I'm curious to know what happens if you try to book immediately at 12AM eastern exactly a year out. Presumably you wouldn't run into any trouble?  Unless the week was already spoken for by another person a year out also, right?


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## controller1 (Mar 23, 2019)

celica7101 said:


> I'm curious to know what happens if you try to book immediately at 12AM eastern exactly a year out. Presumably you wouldn't run into any trouble?  Unless the week was already spoken for by another person a year out also, right?



One of the benefits of the Westin Flex system can also be a detriment to other Westin Flex owners.  For example, say you want a reservation for June 1 for seven nights and you sign on exactly at 12:00 am Eastern time 12 months earlier to reserve but find nothing.  The reason there is no availability may be three days earlier someone made a reservation for May 29 for ten nights (or even seven nights) which overlaps your requested dates and therefore the unit is not available for your entire stay.


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## celica7101 (Mar 23, 2019)

controller1 said:


> One of the benefits of the Westin Flex system can also be a detriment to other Westin Flex owners.  For example, say you want a reservation for June 1 for seven nights and you sign on exactly at 12:00 am Eastern time 12 months earlier to reserve but find nothing.  The reason there is no availability may be three days earlier someone made a reservation for May 29 for ten nights (or even seven nights) which overlaps your requested dates and therefore the unit is not available for your entire stay.



Are home resort bookings not obligated to stay for a week and start on a Friday or Saturday in Flex?


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## DavidnRobin (Mar 23, 2019)

Westin Flex cannot use non-Flex inventory (and visa-versa).
It will be interesting to see how many Flex Owners get shut out of WKORV/N and have to reserve somewhere else due to lack of inventory.


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## okwiater (Mar 23, 2019)

celica7101 said:


> Are home resort bookings not obligated to stay for a week and start on a Friday or Saturday in Flex?



Not in Flex. Any day, any length of stay is permitted.


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## celica7101 (Mar 23, 2019)

That’s the piece i was missing.


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## controller1 (Mar 26, 2019)

okwiater said:


> Not in Flex. Any day, any length of stay is permitted.



Any length of stay up to 14 nights.


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## controller1 (Mar 26, 2019)

DavidnRobin said:


> Westin Flex cannot use non-Flex inventory (and visa-versa).



Just for clarification for those new to Vistana, the above pertains only to Home Resort Reservations (those from 12-8 months prior to arrival).  Westin Flex owners are allowed to make StarOption reservations (those less than 8 months prior to arrival) for non-Flex inventory.


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## DannyTS (Mar 27, 2019)

controller1 said:


> Any length of stay up to 14 nights.


i did not know that. So theoretically a Flex owner can book both 51 and 52 with one reservation?


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## DavidnRobin (Mar 27, 2019)

controller1 said:


> Just for clarification for those new to Vistana, the above pertains only to Home Resort Reservations (those from 12-8 months prior to arrival).  Westin Flex owners are allowed to make StarOption reservations (those less than 8 months prior to arrival) for non-Flex inventory.



Correct, at 8-months they all turn in to SOs exchanges.

Westin Flex is picking up low season deeds (more so than high season and HI weeks) as those low season (non-HI) Owners bail on their deeds compared to high season or HI Owners. That creates an 8-12 month pool for Flex that will be skewed to have those low season (non-HI) weeks available as compared to HI weeks.  This will impact those Flex a Owners with hopes to convert their low season weeks into HI weeks since there are only so many HI weeks available in the Flex pool.

People buying Flex should be aware of this.


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## cubigbird (Mar 27, 2019)

DavidnRobin said:


> Westin Flex cannot use non-Flex inventory (and visa-versa).
> It will be interesting to see how many Flex Owners get shut out of WKORV/N and have to reserve somewhere else due to lack of inventory.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I assume it may get harder over time for home resort owners to book specific weeks as more non-flex owners get swindled over time to trade their week into the flex trust.  Essentially where one inventory decreases (home resort), the other (Flex) increases?

Are there any stats out there regarding what % of owners (at flex resorts) have traded into flex?


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## okwiater (Mar 28, 2019)

DavidnRobin said:


> Westin Flex is picking up low season deeds (more so than high season and HI weeks) as those low season (non-HI) Owners bail on their deeds compared to high season or HI Owners. That creates an 8-12 month pool for Flex that will be skewed to have those low season (non-HI) weeks



Is this a fact?


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## Markus (Mar 28, 2019)

Yes it is a fact. I have been able to see the trust documents showing the deeds conveyed and the majority, excluding Hawaii properties, are low season weeks. This also explains why the MFs are so high.

Markus.


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## DavidnRobin (Mar 29, 2019)

okwiater said:


> Is this a fact?



Based on logic and observation.

Flex solves an issue with the flaw in the original SVO system of having 3 seasons at non-HI resorts. The low season weeks are being defaulted at a much higher rate. Even though less upfront money to purchase - the MFs are the same (which in the long-run is what matters to Owners) for the low season owners. This in turn allows low season Owners to switch to Flex as compared to those Plat/+. Thus, more low season weeks in Flex.
(Logic)

From TUG of those reporting exchanging their weeks to Flex (bringing in additional cash), and during Owner updates and discussions with Owners at the resort considering the Flex program.
(Observation)

But, you are correct - not a fact as I do not work for VSE, and they do not share this info openly.

Using logic and observation in decision making is a common scientific approach in systems where only imperfect information is available.


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## CalGalTraveler (Mar 29, 2019)

What's is being traded into Flex is only one week of high season - not 1 room for the entire high season.

Therefore if someone in Flex reserves that high season room week in June at 12 months, there will be no availability for that room in July or Aug. at 12 months.

So  if my logic is correct, you would have to reserve early in the high season to get availability if there are a limited number high season deeds.


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## vacationtime1 (Mar 29, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> What's is being traded into Flex is only one week of high season - not 1 room for the entire high season.
> 
> Therefore if someone in Flex reserves that high season room week in June at 12 months, there will be no availability for that room in July or Aug. at 12 months.
> 
> So  if my logic is correct, you would have to reserve early in the high season to get availability if there are a limited number high season deeds.



Interesting idea.  By extension, one would have to reserve Hawaii for a week early in the year, lest they run out.

Flex could (should) solve this by apportioning the inventory so it gets "x"% of each week's availability.  Whether they will do this, and how we would know, are unknowable.


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## duke (Mar 29, 2019)

Markus said:


> Yes it is a fact. I have been able to see the trust documents showing the deeds conveyed and the majority, excluding Hawaii properties, are low season weeks. This also explains why the MFs are so high. Markus.



*Interesting:  SO the result is that if the low season owner defaults, the payment of the annual fee still is made as it is reallocated to the existing pool of owners in Flex.  Quite a brilliant solution (for the management company) as there is never a decline in total fees paid.  Clearly, this is a HUGE downside to Flex as the remaining owners becomes responsible for paying the fees of the defaulting owners.  And the group of remaining owners is not just one timeshare location …. it becomes all the locations who now have to support the one with the defaults.  OMG!*


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## DavidnRobin (Mar 29, 2019)

Those low season defaults affect both deeded ownership and Flex.

As mentioned, Flex attempts to fix a flaw in the original SVO design where low, medium and high seasons were created.  The low season owners pay less upfront and in turn get less SOs, but the same MFs.

As time goes by - the low season Owner forgets that their original purchase cost was less, but is now focused on going forward by paying the same MFs as high season owners with less SOs and/or rentability (e.g. WKV).  Thus, a higher default rate, and therefore a burden on the HOA with an increase in MFs to cover the delinquent owners.  As the default rate increases, this burden increases causing more too default.  I wrote about this years ago (pre-Flex) in regards to WSJ-VGV.  The WSJ-VGV HOA came up with auctioning off those defaulted Villas. Great idea.

With Flex (and point systems) - it partially solves this problem. But, if more low season weeks get picked up in Flex - it creates an imbalance that logically would lead to Flex Owners not on top of it getting shut out of Maui, and having to go to other resorts.  I believe this will show up as more Flex is purchased from the non-HI low season weeks.  IMO (note: ‘Opinion’)

Personally, I am keeping my deeds as I own where I want to go, or they are rentable. Also, reserving exactly 12 or 8 months ahead.  As more Flex Owners using SOs at the 8-month mark.  I also suspect that Maui VSN SO exchanges will have more competition.

This will probably force a merging of VSE and Marriott Timeshares as the only out is to give more choices.  IMO and pure speculation.

We shall see...


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## CalGalTraveler (Mar 30, 2019)

@DavidnRobin This makes total sense. MVC trust would have same issue except deeded weeks owners can enroll each year for points in trust which adds to prime inventory avail in trust. 

I expect that Flex will add deeded enrollment to fix this flaw. There might be two tiers for a fee:

Enroll in Flex (keep deeded week, low fee to fix flex) $
Enroll in MVC plus Flex $$$


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## okwiater (Mar 30, 2019)

DavidnRobin said:


> Based on logic and observation.



I wasn’t criticizing either your logic or observations, and I hope it didn’t come across that way. I was just curious if you had seen any hard stats to back it up or if you were making an educated guess.


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## TravelBee (May 4, 2019)

KevSki said:


> Vistana will retro a resale with a developer purchase, but you need to bring in $20,000 new money. One way to offset that 20K is to purchase resale mandatory resorts and trade them back to Vistana. Vistana will credit you 80% of the original purchase price. We did this several times  and found a few SVV units for $1 each. There's another similar thread floating around here with more opinions that you should read.


Hi. 

Can you elaborate? Does this mean you have to buy 2 resales? 1 mandatory to sell back and 1 non-mandatory (cheaper) to retro? 

Thanks


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## jabberwocky (May 4, 2019)

TravelBee said:


> Hi.
> 
> Can you elaborate? Does this mean you have to buy 2 resales? 1 mandatory to sell back and 1 non-mandatory (cheaper) to retro?
> 
> Thanks



No - you don’t have to buy 2 resales. You could simply retro in a non-mandatory with a minimum $20k flex purchase. If you have another deed that they want then they may take that as trade towards the minimum $20k; but there is a minimum amount of “new” cash they want to see come in addition to the trade-in - generally $10k. 

I would not buy a mandatory unit with the sole intent of trading it back to Vistana to retro.


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## KevSki (May 6, 2019)

TravelBee said:


> Hi.
> 
> Can you elaborate? Does this mean you have to buy 2 resales? 1 mandatory to sell back and 1 non-mandatory (cheaper) to retro?
> 
> Thanks


What we did was buy a non-mandatory where we wanted to stay (Sheraton Mountain Vista in prime winter season) and bought a mandatory Sheraton VV Key West for $1. We turned that into Vistana for $23000 (80% of original sales price), used that money for credit towards a new purchase and retroed SMV to bring it into the network and part of our portfolio.


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## celica7101 (May 8, 2019)

KevSki said:


> What we did was buy a non-mandatory where we wanted to stay (Sheraton Mountain Vista in prime winter season) and bought a mandatory Sheraton VV Key West for $1. We turned that into Vistana for $23000 (80% of original sales price), used that money for credit towards a new purchase and retroed SMV to bring it into the network and part of our portfolio.



This seems pretty ingenious.  

Did you actually have to pay anything in new money in this case?


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## dioxide45 (May 8, 2019)

celica7101 said:


> This seems pretty ingenious.
> 
> Did you actually have to pay anything in new money in this case?
> 
> ...


There will often be a new money requirement, you may be able to get it down to as little as ten thousand dollars.


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## TravelBee (May 15, 2019)

KevSki said:


> What we did was buy a non-mandatory where we wanted to stay (Sheraton Mountain Vista in prime winter season) and bought a mandatory Sheraton VV Key West for $1. We turned that into Vistana for $23000 (80% of original sales price), used that money for credit towards a new purchase and retroed SMV to bring it into the network and part of our portfolio.


Can you share the sales persons info?


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## CPNY (Jun 19, 2019)

pacman777 said:


> That’s a great deal for retro!  I would jump on that or something similar but given the whole MVC acquisition and the unknown, I’m waiting to see what is rolled out to better integrate the different brands and systems. If they allow Vistana to join and trade within the Destination Club points program then the whole value of Vistana’s staroption trading system gets reduced.


Why do you think the SO trading system would get reduced? Reduced in what way?


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## CPNY (Jun 19, 2019)

After speaking with VSE sales for the past two days they also offered me 22K for my SVVKW 2LO 95,700SO. My question is this: is it worth it to buy another mandatory resort on the resale market or maybe another two dirt cheap resorts and then sell both back for say 44K dollars Toward a new purchase? Would that help bring in any new voluntary resorts into the network that i picked up on the Resale Market? 

Can they restrict SO on any new resorts With mandatory resorts purchased on resale market in the future? Do you think they can keep resale purchases out of any joint program in the future?


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2019)

CPNY said:


> After speaking with VSE sales for the past two days they also offered me 22K for my SVVKW 2LO 95,700SO. My question is this: is it worth it to buy another mandatory resort on the resale market or maybe another two dirt cheap resorts and then sell both back for say 44K dollars Toward a new purchase? Would that help bring in any new voluntary resorts into the network that i picked up on the Resale Market?
> 
> Can they restrict SO on any new resorts With mandatory resorts purchased on resale market in the future? Do you think they can keep resale purchases out of any joint program in the future?


They really could do anything they want, within reason. No one knows how they will handle the new program. I wouldn't buy a mandatory resort with the plan to retro or trade it in. It rarely even makes sense to retro in a voluntary week unless you are aiming for 5*, but with the possible changes looming, I wouldn't try to strive for 5* because who knows what a new program could bring.


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## CPNY (Jun 19, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> They really could do anything they want, within reason. No one knows how they will handle the new program. I wouldn't buy a mandatory resort with the plan to retro or trade it in. It rarely even makes sense to retro in a voluntary week unless you are aiming for 5*, but with the possible changes looming, I wouldn't try to strive for 5* because who knows what a new program could bring.


Very true. I wouldn’t make 5. With the purchase of a resale and a small purchase to retro other resales would be for elite status. Personally I hope they keep everything separate but like everything else, once it gets too big and everything joins together, many owners will lose something.


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## CPNY (Jun 19, 2019)

W


dioxide45 said:


> They really could do anything they want, within reason. No one knows how they will handle the new program. I wouldn't buy a mandatory resort with the plan to retro or trade it in. It rarely even makes sense to retro in a voluntary week unless you are aiming for 5*, but with the possible changes looming, I wouldn't try to strive for 5* because who knows what a new program could bring.


would you pick up another resale for more SO or wait?


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2019)

CPNY said:


> W
> 
> would you pick up another resale for more SO or wait?


Based on how few SVV mandatory weeks that I see out there and how much those I see are selling for, people seem to be in the buying mood.


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## sjsharkie (Jun 19, 2019)

CPNY said:


> Very true. I wouldn’t make 5. With the purchase of a resale and a small purchase to retro other resales would be for elite status. Personally I hope they keep everything separate but like everything else, once it gets too big and everything joins together, many owners will lose something.


I think they keep everything separate (and that includes Hyatt in the conversation as well):

1.  What advantage do they gain by providing existing DC members access to Vistana properties for free?  I can see them providing affiliate access (with different rules) for a fee in the future, but you have basically ruined new sales for Sheraton and Westin Flex (plus pissed people off who bought into those programs at full boat).  Plus despite having rules that the club can change at any time, you open yourself to litigation I don't think they want (i.e. Salesman A said I could do X and Y for life and now I can't).

2.  I agree with your statement that "many owners will lose something".  A fraction of the members will be pissed at something (i.e. conversion rates between the two programs).  They don't want that headache.

Force people who want access to those properties to buy in separately to those programs or charge an additional fee to affiliate access to other portfolios.  To me, that is the logical way forward to make this most profitable and not piss off your existing customer base at the same time.

-ryan


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## pacman777 (Jun 19, 2019)

I think a brand new separate trading exchange platform where MVC and Vistana and even Hyatt owners can deposit their deeded weeks or respective club points into in order to exchange into each other’s resorts at 6 months out for a nominal deposit fee of ~$100 would be ideal and a win for all including Marriott. Each resort and week could have differing point value assigned a new trading currency for this new exchange platform.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2019)

sjsharkie said:


> 1. What advantage do they gain by providing existing DC members access to Vistana properties for free?


This is the biggest thing I see. I see no reason to give what is probably at least 60% of their owners free access to a new program. Trying to make money off only a small percentage of your base isn't going to grow revenue as they would hope.


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## sjsharkie (Jun 19, 2019)

pacman777 said:


> I think a brand new separate trading exchange platform where MVC and Vistana and even Hyatt owners can deposit their deeded weeks or respective club points into in order to exchange into each other’s resorts at 6 months out for a nominal deposit fee of ~$100 would be ideal and a win for all including Marriott. Each resort and week could have differing point value assigned a new trading currency for this new exchange platform.


$100?  I don't think so.  I was thinking more along the lines of pay us $500 per year (or $3,000 one time -- insert ridiculous number here), and you can have affiliate access to Vistana and Hyatt at 6 months out.

Honestly, Hyatt is the best program of all and I'd hate to see them change it or allow competition from DC members.  I trade a Pinon Point diamond week every year for three 4-night Tue to Sat ski week reservations at High Sierra every year and still have 240 points left over to book a 2 nighter somewhere else.  Yes, they nickel and dime you on transaction fees, but I can live with that.

Maybe it is wishful thinking, but I think they make far more money keeping the programs separate, and allowing affiliate access for a non-nominal fee (one-time or annually).  And even the affiliate access brings headaches of people complaining so maybe they keep it all separate and just force you buy in.

-ryan


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## CPNY (Jun 19, 2019)

sjsharkie said:


> I think they keep everything separate (and that includes Hyatt in the conversation as well):
> 
> 1.  What advantage do they gain by providing existing DC members access to Vistana properties for free?  I can see them providing affiliate access (with different rules) for a fee in the future, but you have basically ruined new sales for Sheraton and Westin Flex (plus pissed people off who bought into those programs at full boat).  Plus despite having rules that the club can change at any time, you open yourself to litigation I don't think they want (i.e. Salesman A said I could do X and Y for life and now I can't).
> 
> ...


I completely agree and that’s what I speculate what would happen. I just wish Vistana had more resorts in the Caribbean (not Mexico)


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## Ken555 (Jun 20, 2019)

CPNY said:


> I completely agree and that’s what I speculate what would happen. I just wish Vistana had more resorts in the Caribbean (not Mexico)



I think we can gauge the longevity of a thread based on when the location topic gets added to the discussion. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CPNY (Jun 20, 2019)

Too bad there are so many locations on the west coast. I like Caribbean water. If Vistana added more Caribbean destinations I wouldn’t care about MVC conversions. But considering the name of the thread is buy both Westin flex and resale the whole basis of the conversation is about what to buy and with that comes conversations about location. West coast locations and Mexico are blah destinations. MVC has MORE DESTINATIONS. DESTINATIONS LOCATION RESORTS LOCATION AND DESTINATION.


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## CPNY (Jun 20, 2019)

Ken555 said:


> I think we can gauge the longevity of a thread based on when the location topic gets added to the discussion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


When you think about it, the title of the threat is “buy Westin flex”. I would expect there to be discussions in LOCATION. Since you can’t use all of the Westin flex options in ALL Westin resorts. St John and Mexico Westin’s are not included. So yes, I would think a discussion on location in a thread on a blog that is ALL ABOUT TIMESHARES which has to do with vacation resort locations, is warranted.


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## Bird01 (Oct 21, 2019)

I enjoy these forums but am confused. If I buy a Mandatory Resort (e.g. Vistana Key West), can I book at another resort (e.g. Kierland, not my Home Resort) 12 months out using those StarOptions or do I need to wait until 8 months out. Everyone uses the word trade but you actually use the StarOptions to book at another place (not your Home Resort).


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## alohakevin (Oct 21, 2019)

pacman777 said:


> I think a brand new separate trading exchange platform where MVC and Vistana and even Hyatt owners can deposit their deeded weeks or respective club points into in order to exchange into each other’s resorts at 6 months out for a nominal deposit fee of ~$100 would be ideal and a win for all including Marriott. Each resort and week could have differing point value assigned a new trading currency for this new exchange platform.


Wouldnt this just be Interval 2?


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## YYJMSP (Oct 21, 2019)

Bird01 said:


> I enjoy these forums but am confused. If I buy a Mandatory Resort (e.g. Vistana Key West), can I book at another resort (e.g. Kierland, not my Home Resort) 12 months out using those StarOptions or do I need to wait until 8 months out. Everyone uses the word trade but you actually use the StarOptions to book at another place (not your Home Resort).



8mos out

12-8 is only at your home resort (or home resorts if you are talking about a flex ownership)


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## DannyTS (Oct 21, 2019)

CPNY said:


> Too bad there are so many locations on the west coast. I like Caribbean water. If Vistana added more Caribbean destinations I wouldn’t care about MVC conversions. But considering the name of the thread is buy both Westin flex and resale the whole basis of the conversation is about what to buy and with that comes conversations about location. West coast locations and Mexico are blah destinations. MVC has MORE DESTINATIONS. DESTINATIONS LOCATION RESORTS LOCATION AND DESTINATION.



Vistana has 700 units in the Caribbeans (including Cancun), MVC has 900. Given  that Marriott has twice as many owners as Vistana, I would say that Vistana is ahead actually. 

Too bad you have not tried the Mexican Vistana resorts yet, Westin Lagunamar Cancun and Westin Los Cabos have very high satisfaction rate.


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## CPNY (Oct 28, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> Vistana has 700 units in the Caribbeans (including Cancun), MVC has 900. Given  that Marriott has twice as many owners as Vistana, I would say that Vistana is ahead actually.
> 
> Too bad you have not tried the Mexican Vistana resorts yet, Westin Lagunamar Cancun and Westin Los Cabos have very high satisfaction rate.


I hear Great things about lagunamar. I next want to try St. John’s.


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