# Paying for "the best" college vs. the "affordable" one



## 3kids4me (Jun 27, 2015)

Hi all - LTNS!

Has anyone had the experience of deciding between the "affordable" college option and a much more highly ranked option that would come with a lot of loans?  I have a kid who will be a high school senior next year and will probably have this kind of decision to make.  (My other kids were not qualified for "top" schools so this was not an issue - they went to public schools and it worked out well for them, this one is a bit different and a large school may not be the best fit for her either, regardless of ranking.)

Would love to hear some stories about your decision process and how it worked out for your kids and/or for you.

Thanks!


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## puppymommo (Jun 27, 2015)

3kids4me said:


> Hi all - LTNS!
> 
> Has anyone had the experience of deciding between the "affordable" college option and a much more highly ranked option that would come with a lot of loans?  I have a kid who will be a high school senior next year and will probably have this kind of decision to make.  (My other kids were not qualified for "top" schools so this was not an issue - they went to public schools and it worked out well for them, this one is a bit different and a large school may not be the best fit for her either, regardless of ranking.)



DD went to a state university for a variety of reasons, cost being one. She  was shocked and dismayed to find that the courses were easier than what she had in high school. (She did the International Baccalaureate, which is sort of like taking 6 AP classes a semester for 2 years, plus a several hundred page research paper.) The rigor picked up in upper division courses but overall she has been disappointed. She has made up for it by carrying a heavier course load and being involved in many activities.

You probably already know that some of the Ivies (and probably other select schools as well) offer full tuition scholarship for students with a family income of under $60,000 a year. If your family fits in that category, these schools may be more affordable than you think.

I have heard/read that many extremely bright students do well at smaller liberal arts schools.

Another angle is whether or not your child plans to go to graduate school. It is a big burden to have debt from both undergraduate and graduate school. That is one  reason (I think) that DD (age 20, will be a senior this year) chose a state university. However, she did have one professor tell her that though her grades and experience qualify her for grad school, she wouldn't be able to get into any of the top schools because she attended a state school. I hope that's not true. She will begin applying in the fall.

I wish your student all the best in navigating these challenging waters!


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## Mosca (Jun 27, 2015)

Fill out all the forms and apply for financial aid. If he is smart enough he can get scholarship money, especially if he strikes high enough: what we found was, the higher the shot, the more scholarship money. That made the highest choice within three thousand of the lowest choice. If they want your son, they'll make sure he goes. In the end, scholarship money paid 60%, we paid 20%, and our daughter graduated from a top 20 school with about $28k in student loans, which in this day and age isn't too bad.


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## DeniseM (Jun 27, 2015)

I think you have to really look at what a student's major is.  For some majors, the school is very important - for others not so much.  One of my nieces went to an Ivy League School to become a kindergarten teacher.  She has massive student loans to pay off, on a low income, in a profession where no one knows or cares what school you went to.


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## bnoble (Jun 27, 2015)

I work in higher ed, so I'm not without bias, but my experience is that it is worth it to pay for a qualitatively better experience.  On the other hand, if the two schools are roughly comparable, it is not worth it to make fine-grained distinctions that carry a lot of cost.

For example, if you were a California resident, and your student got into Berkeley or UCLA, that's almost certainly the best "deal" unless some higher ranked school comes through with a great financial aid package.  These are both top-25 places, and you'll get a great education there, comparable to almost anywhere else in the US. It's probably not worth paying twice as much to go to a slightly higher ranked institution.

On the other hand, suppose I lived in a state with a flagship university that wasn't in the "public Ivy" set, or at least pretty close to it, and I had a student who could make it into a highly competitive school. In that situation, I'd be thinking hard about looking for a better experience, and I'd be willing to pay for it.  A top-quality education is a good investment---provided your student is ready and willing to take advantage of it. 

At least for our "market" (Michigan engineering), I usually do not see students making decisions between schools with significant differences in perceived quality.  Instead, they are choosing between us and other schools with strong national and international reputations for engineering. We sometimes see people picking between us and a smaller place, but even then they are thinking of the very best places---e.g. Mudd, Rose, or Olin---so it's still not really a cost vs. reputation tradeoff.


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## FLDVCFamily (Jun 27, 2015)

It depends on what the person is majoring in I think. If it's liberal arts, I really think anywhere is fine...don't take out tons of debt. If it's more profession-oriented like engineering, accounting, etc. I'd look carefully at each school's program and job-placement stats and go from there. In no case would I take out a mortgage-level amount to attend any college though.


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## lizap (Jun 27, 2015)

Depends on the major.  State regional universities are great for engineering, business, education, and nursing.  The one exception is that if you want to work on Wall Street, you are better off going to NYU, Wharton, etc...  If your child can get scholarships, by all means, an Ivy league school is great, but to go into massive debt to attend an Ivy League school or large research university is foolish, IMO.  Our daughter got her degree from a regional university and  started off making 75K (she is in the health care area).  Try to steer your child in the right direction regarding degree fields.  Some areas are very difficult to find jobs in, such as art, music, general studies..


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## Elan (Jun 27, 2015)

A motivated student with a State U degree will do just as well as a motivated student with a Snooty U degree.  I have a BSEE, work in cutting edge high tech (semiconductors), and have colleagues with degrees from all over the world, so I know this to be fact.
  Keep in mind that most of the college rankings are highly subjective, largely self-serving, and seldom broken down by field. In other words, they're pretty meaningless.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## bogey21 (Jun 27, 2015)

For a number of reasons, two tours in the military, transfers by my employer, night school, etc it took me 9 different colleges to finally get my degree.  The outside perspective of the colleges I went to were all over the map.  My observation is that every college has some excellent professors and all have some dismal ones.  One of the things I found (I was a business major) was that there were some gems at the colleges who used moonlighting businessmen to teach.

If anyone is interested, the colleges I attended were The University of North Carolina, Drexel University (Philadelphia), San Jose State, Temple, New York University, St Joseph's (Philadelphia), Washington University (St Louis, MO), The University of Houston, Southern Illinois University (where I graduated) and St Louis University Law School for a year.

I think the advice to pick a college based on the major being contemplated has merit.

George


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## taterhed (Jun 27, 2015)

My son attended a state college that was fantastic. It's rated one of the best values in the US. I can't imagine any college or university being any better all-around. That being said, there are fantastic opportunities for those with skills and financial need at both state and Ivy league (pardon) schools. Have you reviewed the US News college rankings? Many great state U's on the upper end. Also, you might check to see what groups or collectives your state 
Universities 
are aligned with. Some groups will allow in-state tuition rates for out-of-state schools for certain majors.

My friends daughter (who also applied to the state school) was offered an annual $30k stipend (or what ever they called it) per year to help with tuition at (Brown? Columbia? can't remember which one she chose) the 'rich' school. My friend has a good income, but also has 4 kids approaching the college years. So, my strong advice is this: apply to those schools yor really want to attend and review the offers when they come in. Can't hurt.

Every year, major 
Universities such as Harvard and Yale are reported to have unfilled positions with generous financial packages for 'selected recruiting groups.' I'm not sure if you fit that catagory (whatever it is....) but the message is clear: you can't attend if you don't apply.


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## 3kids4me (Jun 27, 2015)

Thank you for the ongoing feedback.

We probably will not qualify for much need-based financial aid - possibly a little bit but will still require loans, hence my question.



puppymommo said:


> However, she did have one professor tell her that though her grades and experience qualify her for grad school, she wouldn't be able to get into any of the top schools because she attended a state school. I hope that's not true. She will begin applying in the fall.



puppymommo - This would be very distressing.  Would you mind sharing where your daughter goes to college and what type of grad school program she is looking into?  This would be very valuable information.  

I myself went to a state school for financial reasons, did very well there, and ended up in a top-10 MBA program which has opened doors my whole life.  So I do know that, for a professional career in business or law (and perhaps some other professions), the grad school can make a difference.  But my state-school undergrad education did not prevent me from getting into the grad-school program back then and if that might be the case now, it was absolutely be good to know about it.  My daughter does not think she is interested in business (right now, for the summer, she is actually in Paraguay living in a remote village and teaching kids about hygiene), but let's face it, you really never know.  

Thank you again!


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## ilene13 (Jun 27, 2015)

My sons went to private universities, as did I.  Our older son went to GW and was a political science major.  He was a paid legislative aide to a congressman.  You can't get that kind of experience if you are not in DC.  Through his connections he got a job right out of school and he still holds it today--14 yrs later.  He is President and COO of the corporation which hired him in 2001.  Our younger son went to Tulane.  We do not qualify for need based aid, but he did exceptionally well on his SAT's an received an academic scholarship.  You never know.


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## brigechols (Jun 27, 2015)

3kids4me said:


> Hi all - LTNS!
> 
> Has anyone had the experience of deciding between the "affordable" college option and a much more highly ranked option that would come with a lot of loans?  I have a kid who will be a high school senior next year and will probably have this kind of decision to make.  (My other kids were not qualified for "top" schools so this was not an issue - they went to public schools and it worked out well for them, this one is a bit different and a large school may not be the best fit for her either, regardless of ranking.)
> 
> ...



Go with the affordable option.i was admitted to two top ten schools. The lower ranked school was a public university and offered  a full scholarship. The higher ranked university was Ivy League $$$$ and offered a partial scholarship requiring loans. I chose the lower ranked school with no regrets or debt. I know many people who attended that Ivy Leavye school for undergrad as well as grad school. They were constantly stressed about getting a job that paid enough so they could afford housing, food, transportation, and monthly loan payments of $800+.


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## brigechols (Jun 27, 2015)

puppymommo said:


> Another angle is whether or not your child plans to go to graduate school. It is a big burden to have debt from both undergraduate and graduate school. That is one  reason (I think) that DD (age 20, will be a senior this year) chose a state university. However, she did have one professor tell her that though her grades and experience qualify her for grad school, she wouldn't be able to get into any of the top schools because she attended a state school. I hope that's not true. She will begin applying in the fall.



Not true.There were TONS of people from state schools and small colleges in my grad school class. The professor should be called to task for making such a blatantly false statement.


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## bnoble (Jun 27, 2015)

> We probably will not qualify for much need-based financial aid - possibly a little bit but will still require loans, hence my question.


Most "competitive admission" schools---even the public ones---have significant resources for non-need-based aid.  The sticker price is just the sticker price.  Many people do not pay it.  So, don't rule out an option until you see the offer on the table.



> My son attended a state college that was fantastic.


Virginia has a couple of these, but many states have not made the same investments.



> i was admitted to two top ten schools. The lower ranked school was a public university and offered a full scholarship. The higher ranked university was Ivy League $$$$ and offered a partial scholarship requiring loans.


This is a great example of what I was saying above---for schools that are roughly comparable, there is no real reason to spend a ton to go to the "better" one.  And if your choice is #9 vs. #3 at twice the cost, #9 is a no-brainer. If you are comparing #150 with #15 at twice the cost, the conversation is different.



> If it's liberal arts, I really think anywhere is fine...


I'll disagree with this, despite being on an Engineering faculty. The courses you take are a small part of the overall experience, and the major can be less important to your overall career than you'd think. The important part is living with a talented, ambitious group of students during the formative years of your late teens/early 20s. The people around you set the standard to which you will hold yourself, and you want to find the very best group of such people to hang out with.

Mind you, there are lots of ways to surround yourself with awesome people---and they don't all involve pricey private institutions or even your state's flagship public school.  For example, Michigan State has a fantastic honors college. It's a smaller college-within-a-college that has a group of amazing students. They use it to recruit students that they otherwise probably could not get to enroll. If that's your environment, and you engage in it, you're going to have a great experience.

The bottom line is: you do NOT want to be the smartest kid in the room. Take care of that, and things will be fine.

Finally, all of this is playing the odds.  I can show you individuals who went to their regional state institution that had amazing careers. I can show you individuals who went to Prestige University and never made anything of themselves. But, _on average_, the quality of the place---by which I mostly mean the quality of the other students---has a big influence on your trajectory. And, because perceived reputation drives where great students enroll, perception becomes reality.


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## Elan (Jun 27, 2015)

I also attended a state university that was fantastic.  Why was it fantastic?  Because I was majoring in electrical engineering, and this particular school was in the center of a high tech hub.  So I was taught numerous subjects by adjunct professors who actually worked in the industry.  It was beyond refreshing to have a prof tell you the classic theory that was in every text book, and then proceed to tell you that nobody in industry did it that way.  Or that the way the text book described something would work theoretically, but not in practice.  This was the type of education one would never get at a stodgy university with a bunch of older tenured professors who weren't current with the field.

  As far as quality of students, many of the students in my classes were older "non-traditional" students who also worked in the electronics industry and were getting their EE's as they worked.  Really bright people, for the most part.  So, the notion that the quality students are only attracted to the "name" institutions is completely bunk.  There are a number of reasons why people end up at certain schools.  I'd put reputation or ranking very near the bottom.  

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## 3kids4me (Jun 27, 2015)

Our in-state public is the University of Connecticut. It's no top 10, but I guess it's not bad. My daughter would be in the honors program there and probably get a decent amount of money to attend. On the flip side, she could take out what could amount to a fair amount of loans and go to a more prestigious school that is unlikely to give her much money. That's the dilemma, in a nutshell. 

(I know there is a third option which is to attend a "lesser" private school that would give her lots of money, but neither of us see any benefit in this option at the moment.)


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## lizap (Jun 27, 2015)

Again it really depends on the major.  Do NOT underestimate the difference a major can make in getting a job and the initial salary and lifetime income.  If you are an engineering, nursing, or accounting major, the odds are very good that you are going to get a good paying job upon graduation from a regional state university.  All of these areas have very good demand; and in fact, many top firms recruit at these universities. The quality of instruction at large research universities, at least for the first two years, is usually inferior, since you are probably going to be taught in absurdly large classes (like 5-700 students), by GAs, many of which don't speak good English, and whose minds are on trying to pass their Ph.D courses.  If you are 'lucky' enough to get a 'professor', teaching for most of them is an afterthought as raises and tenure are based primarily on research and publications.  Turnover is usually high at large research universities as often, assistant professors don't receive tenure and go somewhere else.  I disagree with the idea that students' affiliation with 'superior' individuals at these institutions will have a more positive impact.  For example, I have a friend whose son went to a large research university in the South (similar to MSU), and majored in Engineering.  His professors were horrible.  This kid ended up getting on drugs and getting into fights with other guys in his fraternity.  He affiliated with very 'good' kids, came from a very good family, and went to an excellent private high school.  His parents vow that they would never make the same decision again (to provide financial support for this type of education)..






bnoble said:


> Most "competitive admission" schools---even the public ones---have significant resources for non-need-based aid.  The sticker price is just the sticker price.  Many people do not pay it.  So, don't rule out an option until you see the offer on the table.
> 
> 
> Virginia has a couple of these, but many states have not made the same investments.
> ...


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## tlwmkw (Jun 27, 2015)

I think the "feel" of the place for the attendee is also very important. I know of kids forced by parents to go to ivies but who didn't feel that they fit in there and weren't excited to be there and so they did poorly and wasted $$$$. On the other hand a friends son went to a smaller, less prestigious college and was excited to be there,and wanted to be there, and has done very well and gotten an excellent job (just graduated). He was frustrated by those who saw this as a "second best" choice and therefore didn't apply themselves and just wanted to transfer out. Bottom line is that the attitude and work ethic of the kid play a tremendous role in how well they do at the school and then later too. Whatever you choose make sure that the one attending is excited and feels it is a good fit for them.
tlwmkw


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 27, 2015)

My brother went to Princeton (yes, the Ivy one) and loved it. Goes back almost every year for the graduation parades with his class.

I went to the school everyone in my family nicknamed "the private Southern Finishing School" --- the female students wore dresses for the most part and the men held the doors for the women. I had unlimited freedom to choose my courses - and got permission to take my Junior year abroad at Rutgers University (while my roommate went to West Germany).

I came back with a completed major in Computer Science plus my ONLY gut easy course, Cost Accounting (NOT).. NONE of that year would have been allowed at any sane school .. I had almost (really) none of the REQUIRED classes for ANY of the courses I took. I returned to my Southern school for my last college semester (the Fall term) to take 1 course in my Math major, 2 more accounting courses (Tax & Intermediate) and a required religion class. 

The Southern school fostered the courage to do that Junior year ... my department head gave me the permission to TRY with a great letter of recommendation, my small college's registrar's signed the letter saying, "If I passed it, my home college would HONOR the grade & credit hours" and I never worried as to WHAT grade or if I passed anything ... I was just there to learn as much as possible in those 2 Summer years terms, 1 Fall term and 1 Spring term.

"Fear NOT as then FEAR can not effect you" ... it was my hardest year and my best year. And afterwards, it was the year I was MOST PROUD of and gave me the confidence in the real world.

Maybe I was just BIG, YOUNG and STUPID ... as I didn't know better!

But I know, that Rutgers would NEVER have been a good place for me as a Freshman  ... dang, that campus scared the crap out of my boyfriend after serving in the rice paddies of Vietnam (I was accepted there as a freshman but went to the Southern university).

And the song I hear when thinking about that experience is still "Oh, What a Year, it was late September back in '69.... "


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## VegasBella (Jun 28, 2015)

I went to an affordable school and learned plenty but didn't get a single job offer after school. I had to chase down every job I've had, work hard, get paid little.

My husband went to a top tier school and learned a little (barely attended classes) and got offer after offer after offer for very high paying jobs. 

He is adamant that our son should go to the best schools possible, not just for the high academic standards but also for the networking potential. We've both agreed that we will never say "No, you can't go to the university you want to go to because we can't afford it." We will find a way to afford it somehow.





(That said, he thinks the culture of some top tier schools is dangerous. So for that reason he doesn't want our son going to certain, high pressure schools. At least not the whole time. Transferring into a top tier after spending a year or two elsewhere is both cheaper and safer.)


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## lizap (Jun 28, 2015)

I think this strategy (transferring to a top tier school after spend the first 2 years somewhere else) makes a lot of sense.  I would be careful that he does not take a lot of courses that won't transfer.




VegasBella said:


> I went to an affordable school and learned plenty but didn't get a single job offer after school. I had to chase down every job I've had, work hard, get paid little.
> 
> My husband went to a top tier school and learned a little (barely attended classes) and got offer after offer after offer for very high paying jobs.
> 
> ...


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## Rene McDaniel (Jun 28, 2015)

3kids4me said:


> Hi all - LTNS!
> 
> Has anyone had the experience of deciding between the "affordable" college option and a much more highly ranked option that would come with a lot of loans?  I have a kid who will be a high school senior next year and will probably have this kind of decision to make.  Would love to hear some stories about your decision process and how it worked out for your kids and/or for you.
> Thanks!



Well, we had EXACTLY this delimma with my daughter 3 years ago, so I will share our experiences with you.  She was a straight-A student in high school, and set her sights on going to an ivy league college after being a part of the YMCA "Youth in Government" program in 10th grade, and being selected/recognized to attend the national program on the East Coast.  She met a lot of strong high school students (like her), who were headed off to Ivy's and prestigious colleges -- and she really enjoyed the bonding, conversations, and cameradie of being with the high flyers (for lack of a better term).  After her trip she kept in touch with her new friends who were seniors and ended up at UPenn, Cambridge, Stanford, Princeton, and Georgetown.

Her heart was REALLY set of getting into an ivy, so we read books on how to package yourself and build your high school resume to be attractive to the top colleges.  It really is a battle of the straight-A students, so the question becomes "Well, what ELSE have you done?" The best advice came from Elizabeth Wissner-Gross's book "What the High Schools Don't Tell You (and the other parents don't want you to know").  Wow! After reading this we realized that parents/students who are REALLY serious about getting into the top colleges, really start the process in 7th grade (taking the PSAT early to qualify for special summer programs).  My daughter had already missed a lot of great opportunities, but with a new focus & how-to guide, we tried our best to make up for lost time.  She was selected to attend an "Economics for Leaders" summer program at UCLA, also a Rotary program for high-achieving teens called RYLA, she called our local congressman and volunteered in his office 3 days/week during her junior year, she became president of the local Youth in Government chapter, she worked weekends at the Y, and she started a local program to help inner-city middle school girls, which she set up to meet weekly at the YMCA.  Once she had done those things, more good things followed. When it was time for the Girls State interviews (1 outstanding 11th grade girl and boy chosen per school), she was selected as the California Girls State representative for her high school.

By the fall of senior year when it was time to submit applications, she had developed a pretty strong resume of awards, recognitions, and leadership activities.  It was a very sticky subject at our house about exactly where she would apply.  She only wanted to apply to the very top schools and a couple of liberal arts colleges, but we made her apply to schools she had no interest in attending such as UCLA, UCBerkeley, UCDavis (for in-state tuition) and a small liberal arts womens college which offered excellent scholarships. 

Even though you don't hear back from most colleges until March 31st, by mid-February she had received a likely letter from the University of Pennsylvania, but no info on Financial Aid (FA) yet.  After that, she was invited to spend 3 days at the small women's college since she was a finalist for one of their scholarships.  She and a large group of seniors brought their sleeping bags, attended classes, toured, and got a feel for life on the campus.

The last week of March, a big envelope came from the small liberal arts womens college (Scripps College).  Full ride scholarship which covered:  4 years of tuition, 4 years room & board, 1 paid summer internship, and 3 airline flights home per year.  Dollar value:  $300,000.  Obviously, we the parents are doing the happy dance!!!!  The kid, not so much.  She REEEEEAAALLYY wants to go to an ivy.

Within the next couple of days, the FA letter comes from UPenn (worst FA ever, $45K/year), she is accepted at UCLA & UC Berkeley (but no FA) so cost will be $32K per year to attend. UC Davis offers her an academic scholarship, so $20K/yr to attend.  There are others, but nothing thrilling. All the private colleges would like us to pay $45-47,000 per year, and will offer her about $10,000/year in scholarships.  The very last day, March 31st -- a big envelope from Yale.  She has been accepted, but all the ivies do their FA based on income, there are no academic scholarships -- after all, all these kids are straight-A's and superstars, right?  But, Yale has deep pockets so they calculate everyone's FA a *little* more generously. Her cost to attend Yale would be EXACTLY the same amount as attending a UC in California - $32,000 per year.  So, that puts us at 50% FA (Yale= $64K year).

My daughter flew out to attend the 4-day admitted students day and fell head over heals in love with all things Yale. Plus, the place looks a lot like Hogwarts, so it is definitely her dream school.  It is clear that the opportunities at Yale will far exceed anything that she would experience at the small women's college.  So, with lots of gulping and sadness on the part of the parents, that August she packed her bags and headed to Yale and has never looked back.  It really has been an amazing experience for her.  I was the one who convinced her dad that we HAD to do this for her, because if the shoe was on the other foot --- I would want an opportunity to follow MY dreams -- not have them squashed, especially after she had worked so HARD, to get herself even admitted to an ivy. Luckily, we had a family member who said to us, "If you were able to SELL her admissions spot on ebay, do you realize there would be no shortage of people willing to pay a million dollars for that spot."  So, strangely enough, that helped us. "Hey, we're keeping this spot. We're not going to decline, and let some millionaire's kid get her place at Yale." 

She has just finished her 3rd year, heading into Senior year this fall, and I still feel that choosing Yale was the right decision.  Her 1st year was really tough since she was used to always being at the top of the heap -- but those days are over.  We thought she had a pretty good education, but public school educations aren't really in the same league as some of the top prep and private schools that a lot of her peers have come from. Writing papers at the level that was expected was tough, but she got help, stepped it up -- and is now able to handle the more rigorous workload. But she's had some amazing experiences that she would never have had at a smaller college or even at the UC's.  Many of her classes and seminars are small, she knows many of her professors on a first name basis, and some of them invite students over for dinner.  There are lots of opportunities for students to do research with their professors if they are interested.  Some is paid research, some is not.

She's attended small meet & greets, seminars, etc. with leading politicians, supreme court justices, broadcast journalists, and all the presidential candidates usually will usually stop by and speak at Yale.  Through some of her extra-curriculars she has become involved with the United Nations in NYC, and goes to a Women's conference there every year.  She's met a lot of her favorite women-organizers such as Elizabeth Warren, Gloria Steinem, Jane Fonda, Lilly Tomlin, Malala, etc.  Plus, I would say that Yale spends huge sums of money on their students, for extra-curriculars, guest speakers, trips to NYC to see symphonies, ballets, live theater, all kinds of things. Even on campus there are a constant stream of events, live performances, and special dinners.  There is definitely a level of pampering and hand-holding that I have never seen in a college before.

Yale fully-funded her for a summer abroad program in Paris last year (tuition+ room and board), and we only had to pay for her airfare. The other 2 summers she has applied and been accepted to Yale Bulldogs internship programs (20-30 Yale students are housed at a local university (free), while working at a 10-week internship with local companies & earning $2,500 for the summer, paid by the hiring employer).  So, she's now spent her summers in 2 different states and had some really good professional quality work experience.  The local Yale alumni in the area host dinners for them, introduce them to local business leaders & politicians and mentor them.  She has done all kinds of crazy things: rappeled down the side of a building, learned to paddleboard (loves it), canoe, learned to shoot guns at a gun range, taken boating trips, enjoyed box seats at sporting events, and enjoyed lots of dinners at nice restaurants.  This year they even arranged for someone to lend her a car for 10-weeks so she could drive herself back and forth to her internship.  

The career support for job placement is also extremely well organized.  When she returns in the fall, there will be lots of companies that will come to the school and pitch to the students.  She went to a couple of them last year.  She was able to spend a "day" in NYC shadowing a young female investment banker who researches companies becoming an expert on a certain niche. Kind of like bring your daughter to work day.  The woman was a little vague about her salary, but said she usually make $1.5 -$2 million most years. Sadly, no interest from my kid, who says she would never work on Wall Street.  But still, what a great experience.  I'd love to spend a day shadowing someone on wall street!

It is nice knowing that she already has so many career options already coming her way.  Her summer internship would like her to come back and work for them, so that is her fallback.  Along with continuing to work for the tech center at Yale, which she has done all 3 years -- but she could get one of the management slots after she graduates.  Her old boss now works at Box, and thinks she should come work there.  But all the Yale seniors will start having on-campus interviews in the Fall, and she says that usually by January everyone will already have their jobs all lined up, and contracts signed.  Okay.  Sounds great to me!  

Even without all the career help she will get from Yale (not to mention her lifelong connections through her sorority sisters, her residential college, and the secret society she now belongs to) -- she has had a really terrific educational experience at Yale.  I would say it has been worth it just for the quality of the education, alone.  Never mind the plethora of extra lifelong perks that there may-or may not- occur in the future. Some people advocate going to a local college for undergrad, then going to an ivy for grad school.  But I also think that for Yale, the time to be there is as an undergrad.  That's when there is the fun, the bonding, the dorm life, the growing up, all the good stuff and important life lessons that happens during the four years between 18 and 22.  

I really credit the 2 books by by Elizabeth Wissner-Gross for helping my daughter get all the great acceptances and scholarships that she received.  When my daughter went to the "accepted students day" at Yale and other schools, she kept running into girls she had met at Girls State, some that were choosing between Princeton, Harvard, and Yale. (wow)  So, we think that having the Girls State (or Boys State, like Bill Clinton) must be viewed very positively by the admissions committees.  Before reading that book, we had never even heard of it.  But once we did she asked the high school counselor all the hows, and when, and whats for being considered.

We also felt that her application was "more valued" by the East Coast colleges, because they are looking for students from the West Coast.  She was not accepted at Stanford, which at one time was her #1, but they get thousands and thousands of apps from Californians, and they are trying to bring in students from other places.  So, she felt she just didn't stand out enough amongst the crowd.  For the top tier colleges: no one from her high school got into Stanford that year, but 2 got into Berkeley, 3 into UCLA, 1 into M.I.T., and quite a few into UCSD which is very strong for pre-med and science.   

So glad to be done with all that, but wishing you and your family all the best!
--- Rene

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...ps&field-keywords=What+colleges+dont+tell+you


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## Rene McDaniel (Jun 28, 2015)

lizap said:


> I think this strategy (transferring to a top tier school after spend the first 2 years somewhere else) makes a lot of sense.  I would be careful that he does not take a lot of courses that won't transfer.



Okay, but it's important to know which top tier schools accept transfers, and how many students they accept. You really need to do some research and have a plan, because people get blind-sided all the time because of what they "assumed".

For example, in California the UC system is set up to take a lot of transfers from the community college system.  If your child is in 4 year college, the UC's are not so interested in taking them as transfers.  They often must give higher priority to students who have just finished at a 2-year community college because the UC's are a "designated path" for completing their 4-year degree.

Also, a friend's son ended up very, very unhappy at our local community college.  He had difficulty getting the classes he needed, he felt the professors were not as professional as they should have been, and was really very miserable. His family decided he would transfer out at the end of the year.  But, the problem was, he was no longer applying as a high school senior.  So college after college told the family that they were not eligible for scholarships.  To be eligible he could not have been in college.  I don't know exactly how they did it.  But they had to somehow get rid of his community college credit.  Then, he applied to a small midwestern liberal arts college as someone who took a "gap year" (finding yourself, but not in college).  He was accepted, and received a decent financial aid package, and off he went as a freshman with 4 years of college ahead of him.  His Mom says he loves it there and he doesn't care if he does have to go an extra year.  So, he dodged a bullet on that one.  There is no way they could have paid for 3 years at a private college with no financial aid. 

For ivies, the number of transfers they accept is only a handful, because they have average an 97-98% retention rate.  So, there might be 1,000+ transfer applications for only 25 or 30 spots.

-- Rene


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## FLDVCFamily (Jun 28, 2015)

Reading some of these makes me feel bad that I don't really care where my kids go as long as they get a degree that gives them a good, flexible professional job. We did Florida Prepaid Tuition Plan, so my kids are realistically going somewhere in-state along with all of their friends (because almost everyone we know did the Prepaid). I just can't get into the competitive college admissions thing...BTDT myself, not worth the stress IMHO.

The student in the OP should worry about major and job after graduation, and less about where they are spending the actual 4 years. It's 4 years of a very long life...a means to an end IMHO. As long as the major is good and they are in a solid program for that major, they should do well. I don't worry so much about the "feel" of the place. If I'd judged my college by the feel I wouldn't have gone there. Trust me...it was just as fun as any other college once I got there


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## e.bram (Jun 28, 2015)

The Ivy League(also Stanford, MIT and Cal Tech) stays with your self esteem for the rest of your life. No one has to mention "it's a good school" after telling the where you went. 

ps Even though you get as good an education elsewhere.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 28, 2015)

"But I know, that Rutgers would NEVER have been a good place for me as a Freshman  ... dang, that campus scared the crap out of my boyfriend after serving in the rice paddies of Vietnam (I was accepted there as a freshman but went to the Southern university)." (a prior post by me in this thread)

I got multiple JOB offers ... not from either college placement offices ... just sent out resumes and did a back home Christmas Break job fair for out of area students (Operation Native Talent). The Human Resource person where I did take a great offer went to multiple recruitment events where other HR staff at college job fairs ... a company I did an interview with was bragging about my background (unique and extremely impressive) ... my eventual employer guy KNEW it was me (too unique) ... figure from our corporate interview would I have almost no interest in THAT company.

Funny is .... 40 years later ... that insurance company is "The General" and my employer, was brought out by a pipeline company and stripped/closed of most of its assets....

You never know .....


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## WinniWoman (Jun 28, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> I think you have to really look at what a student's major is.  For some majors, the school is very important - for others not so much.  One of my nieces went to an Ivy League School to become a kindergarten teacher.  She has massive student loans to pay off, on a low income, in a profession where no one knows or cares what school you went to.



Very true. When we were originally looking at colleges for meteorology for our son in the northeast, we were very surprised to find that 2 colleges, for example, that we never heard of, were prestigious for that program-Plymouth State University- an otherwise mediocre institution in terms of so-called ranks- and Lyndon State College- a tiny school in the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont (their science and broadcast teams actually beat out the Ivy Leagues). (and I mean tiny for a college-had an indoor campus and looked like a high school- but great faculty! The famed Jim Cantore went there.)

BTW-our son was a bit intimidated by the large schools, like RUTGERS, SUNY Albany, etc. so we focused on small schools that were well-accredited in his major, that he could travel to come home easily for breaks and holidays, etc. Of course- all of this meticulous planning and agonizing went out the window when after his first year he changed his major and we were stuck with out of state tuition for a Communications degree!!! So keep that in mind, too! Life is what happens when you are making other plans! LOL!

One more thing- college isn't for everyone. Nothing wrong with not going to college if you are not going for something specific- like to be an engineer, doctor, nurse, teacher. But to go to major in liberal arts, I don't think it's worth the money, unless you can afford it as a luxury. You can just as well self-teach by reading and using the internet and on the job training and so forth.


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## Big Matt (Jun 28, 2015)

I think it is way more important to find out what kind of college experience your child wants and then go from there.  

I always thought that a smaller well known school was the best option until my son went to a large well known state school in the south.  He has had a great experience, is on the Dean's list, and has an internship at a leading company in his field this summer.  It turns out that the college is number three in the nation in his major.  You would never pick this school, but for my son we couldn't have picked a better place.  

BTW, you will definitely get interviews for jobs based on your college, but that's no guaranty that you will be successful in your career.  That has a lot more to do with the person.  Diploma gets you in the door.  The person moves up the corporate ladder.


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## x3 skier (Jun 28, 2015)

If you get a good education in your field and have the talent and drive to succeed after graduation, it matters little what school you attend. The latest example is the change of leadership at The Boeing Co.  

The outgoing CEO graduated from Yale and earned an MBA from Harvard. His replacement graduated in engineering from Iowa State and earned a Masters in Aero from Washington State. The outgoing CEO worked at many companies before coming to Boeing while his replacement is a "lifer" at the company. 

I myself graduated from a good engineering school, Cincinnati, with both a BSME and a later MSME and also as a journeyman machinist through the undergraduate Co-Op program. I later graduated from Stanford's Graduate School of Business. I enjoyed both tremendously and found Stanford much easier, even if more competitive. I learned many things at both schools that served me well in my career. 

I would echo the many who have said the value of a "top tier" school is generally not worth the financial sacrifice if you get a good education in your chosen field elsewhere. 

Cheers


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## elaine (Jun 28, 2015)

I am in law. It matters where you went to school, esp if you want to want to work in a big firm or in top govt positions, US Atty offices, DOJ. But, you could also go to a good state school, get top grades and then go to a top law school and probably do just as well--same for many major in which grad school is likely. I agree with PP, if going into primary/middle/hs teaching, a private or ivy is not going to get the return on the education dollar. Sad it comes down to that, but it does. 
My niece just graduated with $200K in loans from ivy law school and needs to work at a $150K job to pay those loans--no teacher could do that. My DD is going to State U majoring in Psych next year. Since she is going to a state school for $25K a year, I am not as concerned about her major at this point. She also knows she will need to go to grad or medical school to get a decent job. Other niece just graduated from private U in social work--minimal paying job--no way could she repay student loans--luckily she can live at home with parents and got a good scholarship. good luck with your decision. Elaine


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## x3 skier (Jun 28, 2015)

e.bram said:


> The Ivy League(also Stanford, MIT and Cal Tech) stays with your self esteem for the rest of your life. No one has to mention "it's a good school" after telling the where you went.
> 
> ps Even though you get as good an education elsewhere.



I have more "Self Esteem" from my engineering degrees from Cincinnati than my business degree from Stanford. Worked much harder for the former than latter. 

Cheers


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## bnoble (Jun 28, 2015)

3kids4me said:


> Our in-state public is the University of Connecticut. It's no top 10, but I guess it's not bad. My daughter would be in the honors program there and probably get a decent amount of money to attend. On the flip side, she could take out what could amount to a fair amount of loans and go to a more prestigious school that is unlikely to give her much money. That's the dilemma, in a nutshell.


UConn is a solid school.  Being in the honors program can be a plus, but check to see if those students mostly take courses together, particularly in the first year or two. That's what the Michigan State program offers, and it makes a difference. I would not pay significantly more unless it's a very unique opportunity.

But, don't be so sure you won't get an attractive aid offer from a school with a better reputation. You won't know until you apply, and see what offers come in. The total cost of attendance could end up being very comparable. It's too early to make this decision, because you don't have all the information yet. See what happens, and keep your options open.


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## lizap (Jun 28, 2015)

I agree with you completely. The comment about 'self esteem' was amusing..




x3 skier said:


> I have more "Self Esteem" from my engineering degrees from Cincinnati than my business degree from Stanford. Worked much harder for the former than latter.
> 
> Cheers


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## FLDVCFamily (Jun 28, 2015)

e.bram said:


> The Ivy League(also Stanford, MIT and Cal Tech) stays with your self esteem for the rest of your life. No one has to mention "it's a good school" after telling the where you went.
> 
> ps Even though you get as good an education elsewhere.



I have some awesome self-esteem from my engineering degree from a regional engineering university Engineering is a set curriculum no matter where you go it it's ABET accredited. If you can hack one of those programs, you will have great self-esteem no matter where you went


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## e.bram (Jun 28, 2015)

x3 skier:

But imagine your self esteem if you had gotten your undergraduate  engineering degrees from Stanford or Cal Tech.


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## e.bram (Jun 28, 2015)

If it makes no difference why do the Ivys have so many applicants relative to their admittance ? Most willing to pay full fare.


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## lizap (Jun 28, 2015)

Different people have different values and motivations.  Certainly certain universities can pay big dividends (e.g., NYU is great for those desiring a job on Wall Street), but for most people, you simply cannot justify taking out huge loans to go to expensive universities.  BTW, many things influence self-esteem and self-efficacy..



e.bram said:


> If it makes no difference why do the Ivys have so many applicants relative to their admittance ? Most willing to pay full fare.


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## e.bram (Jun 28, 2015)

DeniseM:

That Ivy degree will let her attract and marry the right guy!


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## DeniseM (Jun 28, 2015)

e.bram said:


> DeniseM:
> 
> That Ivy degree will let her attract and marry the right guy!



e.bram - She finished college single, and moved home to her rural town in Maine still single, and she teaches kindergarten there.  It's extremely unlikely that where she went to school will impact who she dates and marries in a rural town in Maine.  

Although I am sure there are exceptions, today's young women go to college to pursue a career - not the "right guy."


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## VegasBella (Jun 28, 2015)

There's this option too: 
http://www.npr.org/sections/paralle...king-affordable-degrees-german-schools-beckon


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## e.bram (Jun 28, 2015)

DeniseM:

People meet and date on the internet now. So where she lives does not matter, but her education does.(Ivy guys like Ivy gals, in my day(remember) we liked the Seven Sisters girls).


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## x3 skier (Jun 28, 2015)

e.bram said:


> x3 skier:
> 
> But imagine your self esteem if you had gotten your undergraduate  engineering degrees from Stanford or Cal Tech.



What an absurd statement.  Would have made absolutely no difference to me. It's the degree, not the institution. Anyone who thinks differently has no idea of the difference between the learning and the magnitude of buildings and monuments as well as the propaganda pumped out the university.

The fact that someone went to Stanford, Cal Tech or Cincinnati may make a difference in the number of offers upon graduation but ZERO as a predictor of future success. It's up to the individual to use the knowledge gained in school.

Only an fool would let their self esteem be determined by the name of university they attended.

Cheers


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## gnorth16 (Jun 28, 2015)

I graduated from the lowest ranked Canadian University and I turned out okay... :rofl:


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## x3 skier (Jun 28, 2015)

e.bram said:


> If it makes no difference why do the Ivys have so many applicants relative to their admittance ? Most willing to pay full fare.



As David Hannum once said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

Cheers


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## VegasBella (Jun 28, 2015)

Rene McDaniel said:


> I really credit the 2 books by Elizabeth Wissner-Gross for helping my daughter get all the great acceptances and scholarships that she received.


I took a look at the books. My husband walks in and sees her name. Turns out she's the mom of one of my husband's classmates


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## Passepartout (Jun 28, 2015)

Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard.
Warren Buffet. Bachelor's. University of Nebraska.
Larry Ellison. Dropped out of U. of Illinois and from U. of Chicago.
Larry Page. Got Stanford Masters. Dropped out of Ph.D program.
Sergey Brin. Bachelor's, U. of Maryland.
Sheldon Adelson dropped out of City College of New York.
Michael Dell dropped out of U. of Texas Austin after 1 year.
Steve Ballmer got a bachelor's in applied mathematics at Harvard before dropping out.
George Soros took a bachelor's from London School of Economics.
Paul Allen dropped out of U. of Washington.

The above results are not typical.

Jim


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## deh333 (Jun 28, 2015)

Fill out the FAFSA.  Know what you need to report and what you don't.  Home value/equity and retirement funds do not get added to the form.

Google "colleges that meet 100% of need"  (or 100% of EFC).  Just keep Googling various questions and follow different paths; it's amazing what you can find; perfect for late-night internet sessions.  

Our kids did not get free rides, but this sort of knowledge that these searches gave me was invaluable (and fun). They both landed at schools that I thought were not affordable.  They are having incredible experiences.

Have your kiddo apply to a variety of schools and try not to become married to one.  Also do not be deterred by sticker price. Private schools will often give kids generous packages.  

Certainly apply to state schools; your state schools.  I would not allow my kids to pay the out of state premium (though Univ of KY out of state is cheaper than many in state schools).  Community Colleges are also an incredible bargain.

After the first job, doesn't matter much where they went.  In my mind, it's a balance of money/interest.


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## FLDVCFamily (Jun 28, 2015)

e.bram said:


> x3 skier:
> 
> But imagine your self esteem if you had gotten your undergraduate  engineering degrees from Stanford or Cal Tech.



:hysterical:I can't speak for x3 skier, but I can say that my self-esteem would be the same. An engineering degree is HARD no matter where it comes from. I can't say I'd feel any better about myself if it said Cal Tech on it rather than my engineering school's name

Do people who went to these schools really think that their engineering degrees are better than the ones from Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, UMich, RPI, WPI, Clarkson, FIT, Perdue...really??? Somehow I doubt that they have higher self-esteem just because they perceive their program to be somehow above the other engineering schools.


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## FLDVCFamily (Jun 28, 2015)

e.bram said:


> DeniseM:
> 
> That Ivy degree will let her attract and marry the right guy!



 Because getting an MRS. is what college is all about?! 

FWIW, my sister has her undergrad engineering degree from an Ivy League engineering school. She married a guy who *gasp* has a degree from a regional engineering school:rofl: I'll let her know that she should have held out for one from any Ivy:hysterical:


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## klpca (Jun 28, 2015)

3kids4me said:


> Our in-state public is the University of Connecticut. It's no top 10, but I guess it's not bad. My daughter would be in the honors program there and probably get a decent amount of money to attend. On the flip side, she could take out what could amount to a fair amount of loans and go to a more prestigious school that is unlikely to give her much money. That's the dilemma, in a nutshell.
> 
> (I know there is a third option which is to attend a "lesser" private school that would give her lots of money, but neither of us see any benefit in this option at the moment.)



What does your daughter want to do? Can you afford the prestigious school even with the loans? (No need to answer those questions here, but the answers to those two should tell you a lot).

We have three daughters. All three went to state universities - one to a flagship, and the other two to less prestigious universities. All three had no debt when they graduated. The youngest went to the least prestigious of the three and had the best college experience - getting to play on a nationally ranked sports team, actively participating on on campus events, and making lifelong friendships. She is happily employed but not making a ton of money. I would be worried, but this kid is just not driven by money. She is the most frugal of the three. My oldest went to a large, upper tier state university. She had a pretty good college experience, received a great education in her field, and received a full ride to grad school. She has a good career. The middle kid went to the flagship that is located close to our home. She did not enjoy the college life experience at all, although she enjoyed the academic rigor and made great professional connections. She also received a full ride into a masters/phd program but left that after the first quarter. (I won't say where she went but she *really* hated that school, lol). She ultimately received a full ride into a master's program at another state university,  graduated and is now working in a great field. Point being - anything is possible, you can't possibly account for all of the variables, and the cream rises to the top. Being debt free allows for a lot more choices in life - choice of career, location, extended travel after graduation - you name it. I would never advise a kid to take on a boatload of debt for an undergrad degree. I am sure that there are some kids and/or circumstances where it would make sense, but as a general rule, being debt free is the way to go.


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## lvhmbh (Jun 29, 2015)

My husband did a spread sheet for our, now college, freshman showing the amount of money he would owe at each college/Univ.  He was accepted to 10 Universities with a couple offering scholarships for academics and/or play hockey.  We told him it would be up to him where he went.  He chose a state University with very high ratings that is smaller than some of the others.  He has prepaid tuition from a state fund we started when he was 6 and money from family and his own earnings.  He will receive some grants as well.  He didn't want to graduate owing money.  He's not sure yet what he wants to do but I am confident that he'll figure it out.  Their Career Services Dept. is quite good.  

BTW - he has very high self esteem!


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## Mosca (Jun 29, 2015)

3kids4me said:


> Thank you for the ongoing feedback.
> 
> We probably will not qualify for much need-based financial aid - possibly a little bit but will still require loans, hence my question.



Yeah, but you said your kid would qualify academically. There are merit scholarships available as well. So you get some need-based, some merit based, some work-study... it all adds up. Apply, because you know what you'll get if you don't.

eta: You will know the aid package before she makes her decision. For us, Pitt, after all the aid, was $12k a year. Villanova was $13500. Notre Dame was $15k. It's pretty obvious what one to take. 

A year or so before she graduated from high school, when we were looking at schools, an ND alum who was active in admissions recruiting told me, "If Notre Dame accepts your daughter, that means they want her. And if she wants to go there, then money won't stand in the way." On the aid application, they asked us, in addition to all the income and asset and debt questions, how much we could pay a year. We wrote down $15000, and that's how it worked out. Aside from that, there was $2500 per semester in work/study (she made pizzas at the student union two nights a week, and then as a senior was assistant in the study abroad program) and $7000 per year in student loans. 

Not to disclose much personal information, but we are pretty solidly suburban middle class, right smack in the middle. The $15k figure was what we had in savings in a TAP529, about $60k.


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## grupp (Jun 29, 2015)

We just went through this process with my son who graduated from High School  last month. I will not bore you with all the details, but he ended up choosing Rice University. He had other options, including full tuitions scholarships, and in the end felt like Rice was the best opportunity for him, although it was far from the cheapest option.

Fortunately, we are able to make this work without him taking out "tons of loans". He will be taking students loans to a certain level and we will pay the rest. Our portion will be covered by money saved in our 529 plan, current income and short term financing from our HELOC.  We have sufficient assets to cover the cost, but prefer not to liquidate them at this time. 

This is a very personal choice and you know your child and your financial situation better than any of us, so you are in position to make the decision that you think is best for you and your child. I would not even attempt to tell you what I think you should do. But here are a few things that might help in gathering information to make your decision. 

1. Run the Net Price Calculator for schools you think she might be interested in attending. These are usually fairly accurate and the result might be surprising. Some of the highly rated schools could end up having a lower Net Price. They do have billions of dollars in endowments, so maybe it is not so surprising.

2. Although the Ivy League schools don't offer merit scholarship, many other top schools do offer non-need based awards. You can find out how many they awarded in previous years by looking at the Common Data Sets for the schools.  The number of scholarships is listed in Section H2A Line  and average amount is Line (o).  For example, in the 2012-2013 school year Duke provided 60 non-need based scholarships averaging $54,947. You can usually find these by searching for the school name and Common Data Set.

3. In addition to completing the FAFSA, most of the highly selective private schools will require that you submit the CSS Profile which provides more detailed information on your finances. 

4. One of the best online sources for information is College Confidential. Although be forewarned, most of the people active on their bulletins boards are parents of high stat/high achieving students. After a while it seems like everyone else but you has perfect test scores and grades, along with being an aspiring professional musician or athlete. 

Some people think we are nuts for choosing the more expensive option, but it was our decision to make an believe it is the best one for our son. 

The good news is you have almost a year to decide. Let me know if any questions regarding our experience with applications process. It is much more complicated than it used to be.


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## 3kids4me (Jun 29, 2015)

Thank you all for the very valuable feedback.  

While it certainly never hurts to apply, in some cases you must show interest in order to be truly considered for admission -which typically means visiting.  After already falling a little bit for a school or two in the more expensive category, my daughter is a little reluctant to get too attached and to visit more schools in this category if they aren't affordable, so it does make for a bit of a dilemma.  We're coming into this a bit late as well and should have done more visiting this year than we did - but it turned out that the type of schools she thought she would like (big ones) she didn't like at all.  (This is partly why I'm not sure that our state school is the best option for her, although our state school is quite a bit smaller than some of the large schools she saw.)  She also doesn't like very small schools, so we are in the "medium-sized" category!

I had run one net price calculator which didn't have very good news for us - will take a look at some others as well.  

Thanks so much again for all of this feedback.  It's really interesting to hear your stories and to see the various paths you and your kids chose.


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## Elan (Jun 29, 2015)

One additional comment.

I'd encourage everyone to go read how the oft-cited US News college rankings are determined.  If one is at all scientific in nature, the ranking method is almost laughable.  As I stated earlier, they're pretty subjective and self-serving.  

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## WinniWoman (Jun 29, 2015)

Sometimes if they go to too small a school as they get older- like a junior- they "outgrow" the school, so it can be helpful to maybe pick a mid-size school or at least a small school in an area with a lot going on and will keep an older student interested.


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## VegasBella (Jun 29, 2015)

grupp said:


> 2. Although the Ivy League schools don't offer merit scholarship, many other top schools do offer non-need based awards. You can find out how many they awarded in previous years by looking at the Common Data Sets for the schools.  The number of scholarships is listed in Section H2A Line  and average amount is Line (o).  For example, in the 2012-2013 school year Duke provided 60 non-need based scholarships averaging $54,947. You can usually find these by searching for the school name and Common Data Set.



Standford offers free tuition to students whose parents earn under $125,000 per year. So if that describes you then applying to Stanford is a no-brainer (unless your kiddo doesn't like the school). 

http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/01/pf/college/stanford-financial-aid/


There are also student loan forgiveness programs. If your kid is planning to become a teacher or nurse or social worker or a similarly charitably minded profession it's worth looking into those programs and strategizing. 

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation


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## 3kids4me (Jun 29, 2015)

I have a question about the net price calculators.  The ones I've seen only seem to calculate whether your child would get need-based aid.  I think someone said above that some also provide an estimate of merit aid? I haven't come across any of those yet.  Thanks!


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## geist1223 (Jun 29, 2015)

*College*

Many private schools to include the Ivy League have some great programs. My kids are now out and self supporting but when my Daughter was at Dartmouth they had a program where if the family income was under $65000 it was tuition free. You still had to pay room and board but that was a huge relief. I contributed $6000 per year for my Son at Harvard and my Daughter at Dartmouth. The Universities came up with grants and loans (without bankrupting the kids futures) for the rest. So as long as your kids have the brains and the background for a private school go for it.

Also start planning early. My kids were taking the PSAT as Freshman. Immedially after taking the PSAT their Junior year they started on the SAT's. So by the time most of their classmates were starting the SAT's they were done.


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## Luanne (Jun 29, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> Standford offers free tuition to students whose parents earn under $125,000 per year. So if that describes you then applying to Stanford is a no-brainer (unless your kiddo doesn't like the school).
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/01/pf/college/stanford-financial-aid/
> 
> ...



Applying to Stanford is one thing.  Getting accepted is another.


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## bogey21 (Jun 30, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Sometimes if they go to too small a school as they get older- like a junior- they "outgrow" the school, so it can be helpful to maybe pick a mid-size school or at least a small school in an area with a lot going on and will keep an older student interested.



Then transfer.  As I said in a prior post I went to 9 colleges before finally graduating.  Most of my transfers were due to interruptions by 2 tours of military service and transfers by my employer, some were just wanderlust.  One of the benefits of attending multiple colleges is the exposure one gets to different environments and belief systems.  For example my Business degree transcript includes California Real Estate, Texas History and two Philosophy courses. The Philosophy courses at St Joseph's (PA) were to satisfy the Jesuit University's  "Religion" requirement as I am not Catholic.

George


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## Rene McDaniel (Jun 30, 2015)

3kids4me said:


> Thank you all for the very valuable feedback.
> 
> While it certainly never hurts to apply, in some cases you must show interest in order to be truly considered for admission -which typically means visiting.  After already falling a little bit for a school or two in the more expensive category, my daughter is a little reluctant to get too attached and to visit more schools in this category if they aren't affordable, so it does make for a bit of a dilemma.  We're coming into this a bit late as well and should have done more visiting this year than we did - but it turned out that the type of schools she thought she would like (big ones) she didn't like at all.



I heard again and again from the schools that you do NOT have to show interest by visiting, and that they don't hold it against you. Nor, do you get any bonus points for visiting. But if a student is being interviewed by the school, or writing their essay about why they want to go to a particular school, they should have done enough internet research to be able and answer that question.  

Even though my daughter was interested in East Coast colleges, she refused my offer of doing a road trip to see them in person.  She was worried that she might fall in love, and not be accepted. She decided to wait and see where she was admitted and then attend the accepted students day, instead. We toured several California colleges she was interested in, but nothing out of state. We toured Stanford, where she didn't get in. We never toured Yale or UPenn and she got into both.  So, I really believe, the kids really don't need to pre-visit the schools.

A few years earlier our nephew fell so head-over-heels in love after touring  Princeton, that he later blew off interviews with U of Chicago & Northwestern, only to not be accepted at Princeton. Still, he ended up at Berkeley and lived happily-ever-after.  So, in the end -- it all usually works out.

I would recommend applying to whatever places your daughter is interested in.  With the common ap, it makes it so much easier, and the cost of the applications is nothing compared to the cost of the colleges.  Also, some colleges have named full-ride or almost-full-ride merit scholarships, but they often have very early deadlines -- like October or November, so that when the average student starts doing applications in December, they are already too late for the big merit money.  USC, WashU St. Louis, and lots of privates have these.  You can find out about them in in the materials & packets you get from the colleges. Most privates have some merit scholarships.  The ivies do not, but Yale gives F.A. for incomes of up to $200,000.  Also, ivies will match offers from other ivies/top schools. Many privates will -- so, it is always good to have an acceptance letter in hand showing how college X is offering your child thousands of dollars in scholarships/FA --- but she would really like to go to your college -- and ask for more help. This is only worth doing at the school your child REALLY wants to attend.  They will make you fill out lots of extra paperwork and it will take time, but you CAN sometimes negotiate a better FA award. They don't publish this, but I learned about it in the book, and it worked for us.

Also, we found out that net price calculators can be tricky.  If you have any rental property, the privates that use the CSS Profile heavily weigh that against you in their financial aid calculations. You are better off owning an expensive house (which is not held against you), than rental property (which colleges feel you should liquidate to pay for your child's education). 

Just to clarify - this fall will your daughter be a *junior *or a *senior* in high school?

-- Rene


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## e.bram (Jun 30, 2015)

You can infer from  the posts who went to an Ivy and who didn't.


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## grupp (Jun 30, 2015)

Most colleges do not include merit based aid in their Net Price calculators, unless it is an automatic scholarship based on grades and test scores. Along those lines, there is a list of automatic scholarships you can purchase for $2.99.  The website for that is:

http://www.mykidscollegechoice.com/full-scholarship-list/

Many of the larger merit scholarships are competitive and may require additional essays and/or interviews. Some scholarships are targeted to specific majors or groups such as underrepresented minorities. 

Also, as Rene points out, make sure you know the deadlines for each school. There may be different deadlines if you are applying for specific scholarships and some require nomination by you school councilor to be considered.

As for showing interest that varies by schools and the importance that each school places on Level of interest. Section C7 of the Common data set shows the importance the school places on level of interest. There are also ways to show interest that don't require that you visit campus, since they know not everyone can afford to travel for the campus visit. 


Just curious if you are willing to share what major you daughter might be interested in pursuing. My son is engineering (although that is always subject to change), so the schools we looked at were strong in that area.


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## 3kids4me (Jun 30, 2015)

Rene McDaniel said:


> Just to clarify - this fall will your daughter be a *junior *or a *senior* in high school?
> 
> -- Rene





grupp said:


> Just curious if you are willing to share what major you daughter might be interested in pursuing. My son is engineering (although that is always subject to change), so the schools we looked at were strong in that area.




Thanks again for the input.

She will be a senior in the fall.  She is done with standardized testing, although she will take the Spanish subject test in the fall since she is spending the summer in Paraguay. As of now, she is very interested in languages of all kinds.  (She is not interested in Middlebury as it is too small.)  She may want to teach high school. This trip she is on may change things for her as it has a bit of a focus on public health - but she is also running some camps so it may either solidify her interest in working with youth or the opposite!  

She also has an interest in business - she started a very small business last year and enjoys it.  Aside from that business though, nothing she has done in high school is really tuned towards that - she only started the business to earn money for her trip, and because she was making a product she loved.  I think it might not be bad for her to go somewhere where you can truly be undecided.

I guess it's a bit too late for the fancy tips from that book you recommended!

Thanks again!


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## Rene McDaniel (Jun 30, 2015)

*FYI -- Here is a list of colleges with large merit scholarships from the College Confidential website:*

"This is a compilation of large scholarship awards that are competitively awarded. The awards included in this section meet the following criteria:

1. At least Full Tuition/Full Ride in magnitude (or equivalent)
2. Available to out-of-state students
3. No need-based requirement or component
4. College must be accredited, public or non-profit private, 4-year degree-granting institution

Key:

Full Tuition: covers the cost of tuition for 4 years
Full Ride: covers Tuition, Room, and Board for 4 years (may include other benefits as well)
exp: stipend for experiential learning (internship, study abroad, etc., allowable uses vary by college)

Scholarships requiring National Merit status are catalogued separately and not listed here. See:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com...276-nmf-scholarships-updated-compilation.html

Scholarships that are awarded automatically based on test scores and grades are catalogued separately and not listed here. See:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com...atic-full-tuition-full-ride-scholarships.html

==== ALABAMA ====

University of Alabama
Name of Scholarship: Academic Elite
Value: Full Ride + iPad
Minimum Requirements: 32 ACT or 1400 SAT, 3.8 GPA
Academic Elite Scholarships - Types of Scholarships - Undergraduate Scholarships - The University of Alabama

==== CALIFORNIA ====

Scripps College
Name of Scholarship: New Generation and Leonetti Scholarships
Value: Full Ride
Minimum Requirements: none
Merit-Based Scholarships | Scripps College Admission

University of Southern California
Name of Scholarship: various
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
http://www.usc.edu/admission/undergraduate/private/1314/uscScholarships1314.pdf

==== DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ====

Catholic University of America
Name of Scholarship: Archdiocesan Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
Admissions Scholarships - Office of Financial Aid

The George Washington University
Name of Scholarshipresidential Academic Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
Scholarships | Undergraduate Admissions | The George Washington University

Howard University
Name of Scholarship:various
Value: Full Tuition to Full Ride
Minimum Requirements: SAT= 1170 - 1290 or ACT = 26 – 28, GPA ≥ 3.0, Or Ranked #1 or #2 in class
Grants, Scholarships & Fellowships - Howard University

==== FLORIDA ====

University of Miami
Name of Scholarship: President’s Scholarship
Value: up to Full Ride
Minimum Requirements: 1350 SAT (CR+M) or 31 ACT
New Freshmen / First Year Students | Undergraduate Admission | University of Miami

==== GEORGIA ====

Agnes Scott College
Name of Scholarship: Marvin B. Perry Presidential Scholarship
Value: Full Ride+
Minimum Requirements: none
Agnes Scott College - Agnes Scott Scholarships

Emory University
Name of Scholarship: Emory Scholars
Value: Full Ride
Minimum Requirements: none
Scholarships & Grants | Emory Scholars | Emory College | Atlanta, GA

Georgia Institute of Technology
Name of Scholarship: Presidential Scholars
Value: up to Full Ride
Minimum Requirements: none
Georgia Institute of Technology :: President's Scholarship Program :: Home

University of Georgia
Name of Scholarship: Foundation Fellowship
Value: Full Ride
Minimum Requirements: 3.8 GPA (unweighted), 2100 SAT or 31 ACT
Name of Scholarship: Bernard Ramsey Honors Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition +
Minimum Requirements: 3.8 GPA (unweighted), 2100 SAT or 31 ACT
https://www.admissions.uga.edu/article/scholarships-at-uga.html

==== ILLINOIS ====

Knox College
Name of Scholarship: Presidential Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
Academic Scholarships | Knox College

Illinois Institute of Technology
Name of Scholarship: Duchossois Leadership Scholars
Value: Full Ride
Minimum Requirements: none
Name of Scholarship: Camras Scholars Program
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
IIT Scholarships | Undergraduate Admission | IIT

University of Illinois
Name of Scholarship: Provost Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
U of I Admissions: Scholarships for All Academic Disciplines

==== INDIANA ====

Indiana University
Name of Scholarship: Wells Scholars
Value: Full Ride
Minimum Requirements: nomination by school (1 or 2 per school)
Wells Scholars Program at Indiana University

==== KENTUCKY ====

University of Kentucky
Name of Scholarship: Otis A. Singletary Scholarship
Value: Full Ride +$1,500/year + iPad + $2,000 exp
Minimum Requirements: “minimum test score of 31 ACT or 1360 SAT (Math + Reading) and minimum unweighted GPA of 3.5 on a 4.0 scale”
Name of Scholarship: Presidential Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: “minimum test score of 31 ACT or 1360 SAT (Math + Reading) and minimum unweighted GPA of 3.5 on a 4.0 scale”
Academic Scholarships for Freshmen | UK Student Financial Aid and Scholarships

==== LOUISIANA ====

Tulane University
Name of Scholarship: Dean’s Honor Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
Name of Scholarship: Paul Tulane Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
Tulane Admission: Merit Scholarships

==== MARYLAND ====

Johns Hopkins University
Name of Scholarship: Charles R. Westgate Scholarship in Engineering
Value: Full Ride
Minimum Requirements: none
JHU Student Financial Services | Prospective Students | Freshman & Transfers | Scholarships

University of Maryland
Name of Scholarship: Banneker/Key Scholarship
Value: up to Full Ride
Minimum Requirements: none
OSFA - Banneker/Key Scholarship Program

==== MASSACHUSETTS ====

Boston University
Name of Scholarship: Trustee Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
Trustee Scholarship Undergraduate Admissions | Boston University

Northeastern University
Name of Scholarship: University Scholars
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
http://www.northeastern.edu/financialaid/grants-scholarships/undergraduate.html#merit

==== MICHIGAN ====

Michigan State University
Name of Scholarship: Alumni Distinguished Scholarship
Value: Full Ride
Name of Scholarship: Distinguished Freshman Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
Academic Merit Scholarships | Michigan State University Office of Admissions

==== MISSOURI ====

Saint Louis University
Name of Scholarshipresidential Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: GPA 3.85, weighted or unweighted, 30 ACT or 1330 SAT (CR+M)
Presidential Scholarship : Saint Louis University Undergraduate Admission : SLU

==== NEW JERSEY ====

Stevens Institute of Technology
Name of Scholarship: The Ann P. Neupauer Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
Financial Aid

==== NEW YORK ====

University of Buffalo
Name of Scholarship: Presidential Scholarship
Value: Full Ride + books
Minimum Requirements: “minimum unweighted high school average of 95 and a combined SAT critical reading and math score of at least 1470 or an ACT score of 33”
UB Undergraduate Admissions: Costs, Scholarships and Aid - Scholarships - Merit Scholarships

Fordham University
Name of Scholarship: Presidential Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition + room
Minimum Requirements: none
Traditional Rose Hill and Lincoln Center Fordham University Aid

Syracuse University
Name of Scholarship: Coronat Scholars
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: College of Arts and Sciences applicant
Coronat Scholars

==== NORTH CAROLINA ====

Davidson College
Name of Scholarship: John Montgomery Belk Scholarship
Value: Full Ride + $6K exp
Minimum Requirements: School nomination (one candidate per school)
Davidson College - John M. Belk Scholarship

Duke University
Name of Scholarship:Robertson Scholars
Value: Full Ride + laptop + summer exp
Minimum Requirements: none
Robertson Scholars: Homepage

University of North Carolina
Name of Scholarship:Morehead-Cain Scholars
Value: Full Ride + books + laptop + summer exp
Minimum Requirements: none
Who We Are The Morehead-Cain Scholars Program UNC Chapel Hill
Name of Scholarship:Robertson Scholars
Value: Full Ride + laptop + summer exp
Minimum Requirements: none
Robertson Scholars: Homepage
Name of Scholarshipogue Scholarship
Value: Full Ride
Minimum Requirements: none
UNC Scholars Program Pogue Scholars

North Carolina State University
Name of Scholarshipark Scholarship
Value: Full Ride + books + laptop + travel
Minimum Requirements: none
Park Scholarships :: About the Scholarship

Furman University
Name of Scholarship: Herman W. Lay Scholarship
Value: Full Ride
Minimum Requirements: “Typically above 32 on the ACT or above 1400 on the SAT I.”
Name of Scholarship: James B. Duke Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: “Typically above 32 on the ACT or above 1400 on the SAT I.”
Admission | Merit-based Scholarships

Wake Forest University
Name of Scholarship: Multiple
Value: Full Ride +
Minimum Requirements: none
WFU | Admissions | Student Financial Aid | Merit-Based Scholarships | Academic-Based Programs

==== OHIO ====

Miami University
Name of Scholarship: University Merit Scholarship
Value: up to Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: 32 ACT or 1400 SAT, 3.7 GPA
University Merit Scholarships | Miami Scholarships | Scholarships | High School Students | Financial Aid | Admission | Miami University

Ohio State University
Name of Scholarship: Eminence Scholarship
Value: Full Ride + $3,000 exp
Minimum Requirements: “Recipients of the Eminence Scholarship typically rank in the top three percent of their graduating classes and have an ACT composite score of 34 or higher or combined SAT Critical Reading and Math score of 1520 or higher.”
Scholarships

==== PENNSYLVANIA ====

Arcadia University
Name of Scholarship: President's Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
Arcadia University - Arcadia Scholarships Grants Loans

University of Pittsburg
Name of Scholarship:University Academic
Value: up to Full Ride
Minimum Requirements: “In recent years, scholarship eligible students possessed a minimum SAT I score of 1450 (math and critical reading scores only) or 33 ACT composite score, an 'A' average, and a top 5% class rank”
University of Pittsburgh: Undergraduate Admissions & Financial Aid

==== SOUTH CAROLINA ====

Clemson University
Name of Scholarship: National Scholars
Value: Full Ride +
Minimum Requirements: none
More Than Just a Scholarship : Clemson University

Wofford College
Name of Scholarship: Wofford Scholars
Value: Full Ride
Minimum Requirements: Nomination by school. “To qualify as a Wofford Scholar nominee, a student should be ranked in the top 10 percent of the class and have achieved a combined score of 1250 (Critical Reading and Math) on the PSAT or SAT or a 28 on the ACT or PLAN.”
Wofford College - Wofford Scholars

University of South Carolina
Name of Scholarship: McNair Scholars
Value: Full Tuition +
Minimum Requirements: none
University of South Carolina - Financial Aid and Scholarships

==== TENNESSEE ====

Rhodes College
Name of Scholarship: Bellingrath Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
Rhodes College | Scholarships & Fellowships

==== TEXAS ====

University of Texas
Name of Scholarship: 40 Acres Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition+
Minimum Requirements: none
Forty Acres Scholars Program – Texas Exes Scholarships

Southern Methodist University
Name of Scholarship: President’s Scholarship
Value: Full Ride + exp
Minimum Requirements: none
President's Scholars Home - President's Scholars - SMU

Southwestern University
Name of Scholarship: Brown Scholars
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
Southwestern University: Financial Aid: Types: Scholarships: Merit Scholarship Program

Texas Christian University
Name of Scholarship: Chancellor’s Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: “SAT scores range from 2130-2230 with an average of 2170. ACT scores range from 32-34 with an average of 33”
TCU | Chancellor Victor J. Boschini, Jr.

University of Houston
Name of Scholarship: Tier One Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition+
Minimum Requirements: none
Benefits of Being a UH Tier One Scholar - University of Houston

Texas A&M University
Name of Scholarship: President’s Endowed Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
https://scholarships.tamu.edu/SCH_O...olarships/freshman/academic_scholarships.aspx

==== UTAH ====

University of Utah
Name of Scholarshipresidential Scholarship
Value: Full Tuition
Minimum Requirements: none
Scholarship Details - Financial Aid and Scholarships - The University of Utah

==== VIRGINIA ====

University of Richmond
Name of Scholarship:Richmond Scholars
Value: up to Full Ride
Minimum Requirements: none
Richmond Scholars - University of Richmond

University of Virginia
Name of Scholarship:Jefferson Scholarship
Value: Full Ride + books
Minimum Requirements: none
Jefferson Scholars Foundation | The Jefferson Scholarship"

This is from a December 2013 post from the College Confidential website.  It's a very good website for learning information about specific colleges, majors, and financial aid.

links: 
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com...e-full-tuition-full-ride-scholarships-p1.html

https://talk.collegeconfidential.co...ips-for-outstanding-high-school-students.html


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## 3kids4me (Jun 30, 2015)

Your list goes right back to my initial dilemma:  

Affordable decent public school, possibly with money

Not as affordable better-ranked school

Lower-ranked (than the affordable decent public) school with lots of money (which neither she nor I see a benefit in at the moment) - most of the list above covers those types of schools I think, except for the tippy top scholarships at the tippy top schools which she would be unlikely to get.

But you are right - it never hurts (too much) to apply and see where the chips fall.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 30, 2015)

I have follow this thread for way longer than I need to --- I have no kids who I will be assisting with college ... only 1 nephew left in the next generation not in college YET ... he is 14 right now.

In the grand scheme of TUG and the timesharing world, I could NOT image any child who during their Freshman Orientation Week would wear a Tee-shirt saying, "My Cheapest Option For College - HERE!" Or "This College paid the MOST for ME!". 

I think parents and kids need to have a discussion for years before the last 18 months of high school. Take the kids to YOUR college campus and TALK about what was good and what stunk. Have your siblings & adult friends talk about college experiences - the good & bad; how to pay for it; WHO is going to pay for it; benefits of living at home or away; loans & the crippling effects; etc.

Kids should have had budgets and learn to "FORE-GO" the stupid and fad  items way before picking a college. 

Yet, parents expect their child - who has no ability to cook, earn all (even any of) their own spending money, figure out when to do homework or school projects, has no savings of their own .. to go away to college, choose courses, complete a major which will support them, understand HOW loans can crush life after college, and not be a follower of a charming professor, etc.

Sorry ... working for chump change with newspaper routes, babysitting, mowing grass, flipping hamburgers, mucking out stalls, running a web site, doing web pages, tutoring younger kids, clothing themselves .. is not punishment or beneath their status in life. It is teaching them to understand MONEY DOES NOT GROW ON TREES. And YOUR money is NOT THEIR money ... no entitlements .... how to budget.

I would have snatched up my nephew who got an internship before his senior year in HS. A month long, no paycheck ... but a real professional experience. He took the car and went to their office; never asked about lunch nor did he pack one. Mom after a week, asked him what was he doing for lunch --- he told his mom this favorite fast food Mexican chain was just a block away and he had been eating lunch there EVERY DAY. Mom asked who was he eating with; no one, as he just drove over there and ate; asked how he was paying for it? Said he was using the VISA card he had for "Emergencies" ... he was hungry and he LIKE that food and it was real close.  

I wonder HOW could a 17 year old NOT understand lunch is NOT an EMERGENCY ... maybe, the first day, I would use the card .. but it NEVER crossed his mind, he should have said something .....

That is today's kids ... CREDIT (cards) GET THEM WHATEVER THEY WANT ... NOW! Who pays or when it gets paid ... it is NOT in their vocabulary. School loans are just way bigger credit cards ... and college was therefore "lots of fun"....


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## lizap (Jun 30, 2015)

Linda, I take it you don't have any 'todays' children or young adults.




vacationhopeful said:


> I have follow this thread for way longer than I need to --- I have no kids who I will be assisting with college ... only 1 nephew left in the next generation not in college YET ... he is 14 right now.
> 
> In the grand scheme of TUG and the timesharing world, I could NOT image any child who during their Freshman Orientation Week would wear a Tee-shirt saying, "My Cheapest Option For College - HERE!" Or "This College paid the MOST for ME!".
> 
> ...


----------



## MichaelColey (Jun 30, 2015)

I have NO REGRETS going the state college route, working my way through school, and graduating debt-free.

Tons of great advice here, though.  Definitely see what scholarships and grants are available and what the total expense will be.


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## 3kids4me (Jun 30, 2015)

I've read this post over a couple of times but I'm not understanding the point!  Honestly - I don't get it.  I think maybe what you're saying that kids don't look for the cheapest option because they are don't get how much debt can impact them later?  I can't even tell you how far that is from the truth in our house.  My kid, and we, are thinking about this very hard right now, which is why I've asked to hear about others' experiences.  I'm sure some kids don't think about it and some kids do - but you really can't generalize how the younger generation thinks about things like debt.  (Also, I think there are a fair amount of high school kids that do know how to cook, do earn some of their own money, and do figure out when to do their own projects in school!)



vacationhopeful said:


> I have follow this thread for way longer than I need to --- I have no kids who I will be assisting with college ... only 1 nephew left in the next generation not in college YET ... he is 14 right now.
> 
> In the grand scheme of TUG and the timesharing world, I could NOT image any child who during their Freshman Orientation Week would wear a Tee-shirt saying, "My Cheapest Option For College - HERE!" Or "This College paid the MOST for ME!".
> 
> ...


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## wilma (Jun 30, 2015)

3kids4me said:


> I've read this post over a couple of times but I'm not understanding the point!  Honestly - I don't get it.



It's basically a rant about how stupid today's kids and parents are with the underlying assumption that even though she has no children she would be the best parent ever and raise self-supporting, smart kids.


----------



## vacationhopeful (Jun 30, 2015)

lizap said:


> Linda, I take it you don't have any 'todays' children or young adults.



Said that in my first statement ... but I have been SENT some of my under 20yo nieces and nephews over the last 10 years .... when my siblings are at their wits end or the kids are in a long "funk". 

As for the "I am not graduating from college in 10 days" nephew .... I am avoiding that boy ... or is he avoiding me?


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 30, 2015)

wilma said:


> It's basically a rant about how stupid today's kids and parents are with the underlying assumption that even though she has no children she would be the best parent ever and raise self-supporting, smart kids.



Wilma,

Don't assume I have not been involved with children, kids and young adults ... I just have NOT had my own kids.

My "rant" is on how much effort is being put forth to research and apply for college admittances & financial aid ... the assembly line/thesis beyond a high school student's understanding. 

Who is going to the university? 
Who is driving this "must get the best deal"? 
Is there a PRIZE? 
Will the young adult ever believe that someone without "their best option" obtained, be a worthy individual?
When does the researching and applying STOP? 
Would an even be a "MORE PERFECT" option have been overlooked or missed?

A decision should be reached within the skill set of this "soon to be high school" graduate ... or is it the parent(s) who are doing the analysis?

Whatever ... 

Wilma .... glad I am not one of your kids (if you have kids yourself) ... judging a bit hasty, IMHO.


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## wilma (Jun 30, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> ... judging a bit hasty, IMHO.



nope, seen several of your rants already.....


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## bogey21 (Jun 30, 2015)

A rational approach for a HS grad if the college "experience" isn't of paramount importance might be 2 years of Junior College living at home if there is a decent JC in commuting distance.  Then transfer for the last 2 years into an appropriate 4 year college.

George


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## Rene McDaniel (Jun 30, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> Wilma, Don't assume I have not been involved with children, kids and young adults ... I just have NOT had my own kids.  My "rant" is on how much effort is being put forth to research and apply for college admittances & financial aid ... the assembly line/thesis beyond a high school student's understanding.
> 
> Who is going to the university?
> Who is driving this "must get the best deal"?
> ...



I agree that the whole "college-thing" has gotten a bit out of hand, but it is what it is.  Parents are just trying to navigate their way in a system that has become extremely expensive and complex. It would be better to be either very rich or very poor -- because TODAY if you are in the middle, you could be facing some enormous bills, even for state colleges. 

Tuition/room & board at San Diego State, where my husband went to college (back in the day) is now $22,000 per year.  UC San Diego is $26,000 for California residents and $49,000 for non-Californians.  People in California are starting to complain that it is more difficult to get into the UC's now because they keep upping the number slots for out-of-state students because the colleges need the money.  I don't know it that's really true or not -- but in the world of college admissions -- things are changing.  What was cheap back THEN, may not be so cheap now.  Parents have to be involved, and help their kids navigate through this process -- because next to buying your home - paying for college is usually the next highest expense families encounter.  I've certainly never had a car that cost THAT kinda dough! ($2K/month for 4 -5 years)

Our first kiddo, was a hard-working "B" student and went off to an in-state college, did just fine, but took 5 years to finish.  But that's okay, we paid all 5 years (she also worked the whole time) and she finished debt-free.  Child #2 was the straight-A student, a super-competitive person, and wanted to soar with the high-flyers.  Her needs, and what she was looking for in a college, were completely different than our oldest.  With the FA that we get, the cost of her expensive private college is less than what we would have paid at the UC's. Unfortunately, she will graduate with about $7,000 of college debt for her 4 year degree, but we hope we can help her pay that off quickly.  She is an extremely hard worker -- working 15-20 hours per week during the school year, doing internships or college courses during the summer, and pulling mostly A's in a very rigorous college where they are expected to read 300+ pages per week, and write 5-10 page papers weekly, as well.  It wouldn't be my cup of tea, but she loves it.     

Every family has to make their OWN decisions about what level of financial support they will provide for undergrad college, or grad, or wedding, or buying that first house.  Some families feel the "kids should earn it themselves the way I did", and send them off to community college.  My husband & I both got financial help with college, so our goal was to pay for everyone's undergrad degree -- but grad work -- so sorry, but the kiddos are on their own.  My brother-in-law is more generous -- he pays for undergrad, grad degrees, and splashy destination weddings, to boot.  My best friend Ann, pays for all college, very big fancy weddings, AND feels like her work is not done until she helps each kid with a down payment to get into that first house.  Different strokes for different folks!

We all have different and unique perspectives about these types of things, and that's okay, or at least it *should* be.

--- Rene


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## Rene McDaniel (Jun 30, 2015)

3kids4me said:


> Thanks again for the input.  She will be a senior in the fall.  She is done with standardized testing, although she will take the Spanish subject test in the fall since she is spending the summer in Paraguay. As of now, she is very interested in languages of all kinds.  (She is not interested in Middlebury as it is too small.)  She may want to teach high school. This trip she is on may change things for her as it has a bit of a focus on public health - but she is also running some camps so it may either solidify her interest in working with youth or the opposite!
> 
> She also has an interest in business - she started a very small business last year and enjoys it.  Aside from that business though, nothing she has done in high school is really tuned towards that - she only started the business to earn money for her trip, and because she was making a product she loved.  I think it might not be bad for her to go somewhere where you can truly be undecided.
> 
> ...



Your daughter sounds like a *very strong candidate for merit scholarship money* with the going to Paraguay, and starting her own little business.  Are you kidding me?  College admissions officers will be enamored with her.  She is their dream candidate, because she has done all the right things naturally, without even reading the books.  That little bit of a business venture would sit very well with a school like Stanford and UPenn which lean a bit toward entrepreneurial-types. 

You should still consider ordering the 2nd book "What colleges don't tell you (and other parents don't want you to know): 272 secrets for getting your kid into the top schools".  That one has some very helpful information on getting her letters of recommendation, good & bad topics for college essays about yourself, answering college application essay questions such as: "describe your ideal roommate" or "describe a person, book, or event that influenced you most" and the infamous "Tell us why you want to come here" essay.  There is quite a bit of useful information about the entire application process from start to finish including the decision to apply either Early Action (EA) or Early Decision (ED), the college interview, and what to do to improve your chances when waitlisted.

You'll find that some of her tips don't apply, and some are waaaaay too "helicopter parent", but some of them are very insightful.  You will definitely come away with a better understanding of how the college admission systems works -- even though you may not like it!  Reading it definitely helped me, to help my daughter, more effectively.  Kids definitely benefit from some some constructive feedback during the essay writing process.  It's not easy for them to write about themselves, or their accomplishments.

-- Rene


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## MichaelColey (Jul 1, 2015)

One chart that would be good for every teenager to be shown numerous times in the years leading up to the college is the annual Bureau of Labor Statistics Earnings & Unemployment Rates by Educational Attainment:

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

I'm sure it's no surprise to most of us, but it's shocking to see in a chart just how much difference education makes.  The average person with a bachelor's degree has almost half the unemployment rate and almost twice the weekly earnings as someone with just a high school diploma.  Post-graduate degrees make an even larger difference.


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## x3 skier (Jul 1, 2015)

MichaelColey said:


> One chart that would be good for every teenager to be shown numerous times in the years leading up to the college is the annual Bureau of Labor Statistics Earnings & Unemployment Rates by Educational Attainment:
> 
> http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm
> 
> I'm sure it's no surprise to most of us, but it's shocking to see in a chart just how much difference education makes.  The average person with a bachelor's degree has almost half the unemployment rate and almost twice the weekly earnings as someone with just a high school diploma.  Post-graduate degrees make an even larger difference.



A more meaningful chart would break it down by college major and skilled labor like a machinist or plumber vs unskilled so one doesn't pursue a dream and wind up at the bottom of the economic ladder. I'm fairly certain a skilled machinist makes a bit more than an Art Appreciation major working a job not requiring said degree. 

One can choose whatever path one desires but there are consequences.

Cheers


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## bogey21 (Jul 1, 2015)

Rene McDaniel said:


> Tuition/room & board at San Diego State, where my husband went to college (back in the day) is now $22,000 per year.  UC San Diego is $26,000 for California residents and $49,000 for non-Californians.



Something stinks.  Costs have really gotten so out of hand.  I know it was many years ago (in the 60s) when I spent my last year and a half attending Southern Illinois University full time paying out of state tuition.  It was all of $275 per quarter which included book rental.  With 3 quarters being equal to 2 semesters that was less than $1,000 per year.  It was pay as you go.  I don't think Student Loans were even invented yet.

George


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## am1 (Jul 1, 2015)

MichaelColey said:


> One chart that would be good for every teenager to be shown numerous times in the years leading up to the college is the annual Bureau of Labor Statistics Earnings & Unemployment Rates by Educational Attainment:
> 
> http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm
> 
> I'm sure it's no surprise to most of us, but it's shocking to see in a chart just how much difference education makes.  The average person with a bachelor's degree has almost half the unemployment rate and almost twice the weekly earnings as someone with just a high school diploma.  Post-graduate degrees make an even larger difference.



Is it the degree or the people pursuing the degree?  Not disagreeing with the chart but there are other avenues other than college.


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## MichaelColey (Jul 1, 2015)

am1 said:


> Is it the degree or the people pursuing the degree?  Not disagreeing with the chart but there are other avenues other than college.


That's a valid point.  Correlation doesn't prove causation.  I think it's likely *both* the degree and the person pursuing it.


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## FLDVCFamily (Jul 1, 2015)

x3 skier said:


> A more meaningful chart would break it down by college major and skilled labor like a machinist or plumber vs unskilled so one doesn't pursue a dream and wind up at the bottom of the economic ladder. I'm fairly certain a skilled machinist makes a bit more than an Art Appreciation major working a job not requiring said degree.
> 
> One can choose whatever path one desires but there are consequences.
> 
> Cheers



Exactly. Also, the college grad might have half the unemployment rate of the non-college grad, but they might still be six figures in debt, dressed as a statue twirling a sign on the side of the road during tax time as their employment. Your major matters more than anything.


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## grupp (Jul 2, 2015)

This seems to have gotten off the track from the original question regarding choosing to spend the money to attend an “elite” college vs attending a lower price/lower rated school. There is no correct answer to this and there are many variables to consider. Also, a bright and motivated student will most likely succeed in either environment. 

I am of the opinion that elite schools can offer advantages that may not be available at other schools, such as smaller class sized, better access to professors, more research opportunities, access to better internships, and strong alumni networks. Whether these advantages are worth the extra money is everyone’s personal choice. 

Not that these things aren’t available at large State Universities as well, but they may be more difficult locate. My old track coach at the extremely low rated State University I attended would tell recruits, _*“You can find what you need to be successful at almost college. Some just require you to look a little harder to find it.”*_ I think there is some truth in that statement and it could be argued that having to search for these opportunities is a valuable learning experience as well. 

For those of you who have not applied to college in the last 30-40 years or not had a child considering attending an elite school, I think you would be in for shock at the competitiveness and the lengths parents go to in trying to get their child accepted to the “right” school. Admission advisors are charging thousands of dollars to help students get accepted and the process can start before the child even enters high school. They plan what classes they will take, extra curricular activities, clubs they will join, volunteer activities and so on. 

There as some admission advisors that guarantee acceptance to a top school or a full refund or your money. Sounds good, but the price tag for this service can reach up to $1,000,000 and you still have to pay for the cost to attend the school. Most of us sane people would think this absurd, but there is apparently a market for this service.

Also, I don’t expect the cost of college to come down anytime soon, but hopefully the increases will slow some. When some of top colleges that cost over $60,000 can have 30,000 applications for 1,500 openings, there is not much motivation for them to reduce the cost. Although most of these schools are doing a lot to offer aid to lower income and underrepresented groups, which is a good thing. As mentioned by someone else, it is the middle class that can get squeezed out financially since they can’t afford to write a check for $250,000 and may be offered limited need-based financial aid.

3kids4me it sounds like your daughter will have some great options. My only advice would be to review all of the alternatives and make the decision that you feel is best for your family, regardless of what others may think. 

On an unrelated note, to a 17 year old boy lunch is definitely an emergency, so I would not have any problem with him using his emergency Visa card.


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## 3kids4me (Jul 2, 2015)

grupp said:


> On an unrelated note, to a 17 year old boy lunch is definitely an emergency, so I would not have any problem with him using his emergency Visa card.



As the parent of a 6'3" boy who somehow managed to consume a gallon of milk a day when he was living at home, I would agree with this.


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## elaine (Jul 2, 2015)

my thoughts from personal experience, my friends' kids and talking to guidance officers:
for technical degrees--accting, engineering, nursing, etc.--ones that teach an "in demand" skill, a decent state school is fine and probably gets as good a "return" on investment as higher ranked schools (meaning the engineer/nurse with a degree from Cornell isn't going to make appreciably more than the StateU grad). Case in point--#2 best value in education in Barrons a few years ago was engineering degree from U of Fla (I took note, as that was my bother's degree/school).
for teaching primary-secondary ed--same as above--further, to move to higher positions, a masters degree is usually necessary. A maters from a more elite school can significantly augment a StateU undergrad degree. 
for liberal arts degrees without a specific marketable skill--more elite will give better job prospects. Some of my friends' kids with UVa/Yale, etc. degrees in liberal arts have gotten great jobs with companies based upon the schools (and, of course, their interviews/personalities), while those at lesser schools are struggling to get jobs in their fields (or even any job that is not retail, minimum wage, etc.). 
disclaimer--DD is going to StateU this fall in social sciences. She will have to go to grad school and knows that. But, it's $20K for everything for the year and it was her dream school and she will graduate loan-free, so that's what we did. good luck. Elaine


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## PearlCity (Jul 2, 2015)

puppymommo said:


> DD went to a state university for a variety of reasons, cost being one. She  was shocked and dismayed to find that the courses were easier than what she had in high school. (She did the International Baccalaureate, which is sort of like taking 6 AP classes a semester for 2 years, plus a several hundred page research paper.) The rigor picked up in upper division courses but overall she has been disappointed. She has made up for it by carrying a heavier course load and being involved in many activities.
> 
> You probably already know that some of the Ivies (and probably other select schools as well) offer full tuition scholarship for students with a family income of under $60,000 a year. If your family fits in that category, these schools may be more affordable than you think.
> 
> ...


Not true about not getting into a great Graduate school. I went into the university of Hawaii and got into engineering graduate schools at Stanford and UCBerkley. Which at the time we're ranked high.


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## Mosca (Jul 2, 2015)

grupp said:


> For those of you who have not applied to college in the last 30-40 years or not had a child considering attending an elite school, I think you would be in for shock at the competitiveness and the lengths parents go to in trying to get their child accepted to the “right” school.



Ain't it the truth. We heard some stories. 

I agree completely with your assessment of merit money. The extra things this student has done sets her well apart from other applicants. Apply, be down to earth in the interview (if there is one), write an honest essay. The offers will come unsolicited. And, you don't have to be living hand-to-mouth to get offers. There should be a fair mix of merit money and need money.


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## cannporch (Jul 2, 2015)

The income limits for tuition waivers are now at 100k at some schools.  I.e.Yale There is talk of higher at some. some schools will compete and offer a more generous package. BUT no FAF no in house stuff... No scholarship nor grant. A persuasive writer student with grades who gets in... Should be able to persuade other sources to dint the financial damage. The student should be supported to draft and target multiple resources. AN INTERNSHIP OR VOLUNTEER EXPERIENCE SHOULD BE EVIDENT IN APPLICATION.
In my family we have many paradigms. If a student has passion with determination for excellence they can achieve much. lackluster programs can dint some, who require more consistent engagement. Good grades at good schools.... Minus business or law tend to get easy money for funding advanced education.  Invest in a writing tutor to optimize options. I have siblings who never paid a dime. One who roti through to be nicely gainfully employed with company paying for masters, another went local flagship finished late and paid many times, I went to high profile and benefitted from flexible advanced degree packages. Research and make the most of the options. My nanny's son was hooked into the right internships for high school.(i gave him forms and he filled them out) He choose the school that gave him a full ride and changed his major to his passion. Then some fail to fill out the form and have hard choices.

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## Elan (Jul 23, 2015)

Here's a good article that details the differences in "name" vs "no-name" schools at the undergrad level:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/24/u...=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1&abt=0002&abg=1

  From the article:

_The sections devoted to how colleges differ from one another are notable for how little they find. As Mr. Pascarella and Mr. Terenzini carefully document, studies have found that some colleges are indeed better than others in certain ways. Students tend to learn more in colleges where they have closer relationships with faculty and peers, for example, and earn a little more after graduating from more selective institutions.

But these findings are overwhelmed in both size and degree by the many instances in which researchers trying to detect differences between colleges found nothing.

“The great majority of postsecondary institutions appear to have surprisingly similar net impacts on student growth,” the authors write. “If there is one thing that characterizes the research on between-college effects on the acquisition of subject matter knowledge and academic skills, it is that in the most internally valid studies, even the statistically significant effects tend to be quite small and often trivial in magnitude.”_

... and ...

_People can learn a lot in college, and many do. But which college matters much less than everyone assumes. As Mr. Pascarella and Mr. Terenzini explain, the real differences exist at the departmental level, or within the classrooms of individual professors, who teach with a great deal of autonomy under the principles of academic freedom. The illusory university pretends that all professors are guided by a shared sense of educational excellence specific to their institution. In truth, as the former University of California president Clark Kerr observed long ago, professors are “a series of individual faculty entrepreneurs held together by a common grievance over parking.”

The problem for students is that it is all but impossible to know ahead of time which part of the disunified university is which. Consumers of higher education have been taught that their main choice lies between whole institutions that are qualitatively different from one another. Because this is wrong, the higher education market often fails, which is probably one reason that a third of students who enroll in four-year colleges transfer or drop out within three years.

The whole apparatus of selective college admissions is designed to deliberately confuse things that exist with things that don’t. Many of the most prestigious colleges are an order of magnitude wealthier and more selective than the typical university. These are the primary factors driving their annual rankings at or near the top of the U.S. News list of “best” colleges. The implication is that the differences in the quality of education they provide are of a similar size. There is no evidence to suggest that this is remotely true.

When college leaders talk about academic standards, they often mean admissions standards, not standards for what happens in classrooms themselves. Or they vaguely appeal to traditions and shared values without any hard evidence of their meaning. This is understandable, because the alternative is admitting that many selective institutions are not intrinsically excellent; they were just lucky enough to get into the business of selecting the best and brightest before everyone else._"


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## x3 skier (Jul 23, 2015)

Elan said:


> Here's a good article that details the differences in "name" vs "no-name" schools at the undergrad level:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/24/u...=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1&abt=0002&abg=1
> 
> ...


_

Glad someone has actually proven what I thought I already knew. 

BTW, I just got an email from my Engineering Alma Mater, Cincinnati, that 97% of this years grads already have an engineering job.

Cheers_


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 24, 2015)

In an earlier life, I was a principal in engineering consulting practice that was growing rapidly - almost 50% compound annual growth.  I was heavily involved in hiring engineering and scientific staff, where the absolute minimum requirement was a BS in physical sciences or engineering.

Generally, we didn't pay much attention to what institution the person had graduated from, as long as it was a reputable institution.  And once the person had been out of school several years the university meant nothing.  At that point our evaluation relied on what the person had accomplished in that time.  Someone might have graduated from the finest institution, but after three years of work if all they could point to was their degree from the fine institution they got nowhere with us. 

And occasionally we ran into situations where some of hirees from more pedigreed schools seemed to feel that they should get some deference in pay or responsibility because of their alma mater as compared with others who might have graduated from an "lesser" institution.  That never went over well with us.


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## lizap (Jul 24, 2015)

This has always been what we believed as well.  For most jobs, a degree from a regional university is sufficient.  Interestingly, the article talks about teaching and the relationship between students and faculty, something which most regional universities are known to have an edge over larger research universities.



x3 skier said:


> Glad someone has actually proven what I thought I already knew.
> 
> BTW, I just got an email from my Engineering Alma Mater, Cincinnati, that 97% of this years grads have already have an engineering job.
> 
> Cheers


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## Jason245 (Jul 24, 2015)

Look up the cost of tuition for university students in Germany. ..i am going to give my kids a choice. Assistance with usa tuition costs based on whatever I put in 529  (which means they are on their own for housing and whatnot ) or 4 years abroad with spending money and housing  (I would imagine that the around 50k+ I will have saved per kid will let them live pretty well in Europe )

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## Jason245 (Jul 24, 2015)

As for top schools. . The primary reason to go is for "connections ".. this is useful if you want to go into politics or business. .. but for most degrees. .it is more hype than substance.  

I graduated from a state school and have had many top tier MBA degree people work for me or with me.. many of them have been more talk then substance with several trying to use their college as validation for their abilities even when their work product says otherwise. .

Ultimately you get what you put into education.  The books are the same no matter where you go. .you just might be in classes with less motivated peers in state schools. .

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## vacationhopeful (Jul 25, 2015)

Jason245 said:


> ....<snip>,,,,Ultimately you get what you put into education.  The books are the same no matter where you go. .you just might be in classes with less motivated peers in state schools. .../QUOTE]
> 
> Jason,
> Your comment on books is very REAL to me.
> ...


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## VegasBella (Jul 25, 2015)

Jason245 said:


> The books are the same no matter where you go. .you just might be in classes with less motivated peers in state schools.




My experience was certainly NOT that the books are all the same. There is similarity in lower division sure but upper differs vastly depending on the professor.

I had many customized reading assignments where the text was written or compiled by my prof and was not available anywhere else. 

Obviously depends on the subject you study. There's probably going to be more book overlap for the hard sciences than the soft.


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## Jason245 (Jul 25, 2015)

VegasBella said:


> My experience was certainly NOT that the books are all the same. There is similarity in lower division sure but upper differs vastly depending on the professor.
> 
> I had many customized reading assignments where the text was written or compiled by my prof and was not available anywhere else.
> 
> Obviously depends on the subject you study. There's probably going to be more book overlap for the hard sciences than the soft.


If it is a published book issued by one of the big publishers everyone is using it.  While there may be a few select classes in the liberal arts components and other similarly unstructured type fields,  I would estimate that for specialized  level fields like business,  science,  engineering their is significant overlap.  

All that being said,  I would focus on the credentials of your instructors and not the prestige of the university. I graduated from a state school in one of the top accounting programs in the country,  passed the cpa on thr first try and received multiple offers from the top firms in the country (1.5 year before I even finished my masters  and was ready to start working ). In some cases it is more impressive to stand out as the best in a state school vs potentially normal in a top school.. instructors and those with contacts in industry take notice and are very helpful in starting your road to success

While going for my masters I again used the same books as top schools and there were "reading suggestions and assignments ".. . 

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## bogey21 (Jul 25, 2015)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> .....I was heavily involved in hiring engineering and scientific staff, where the absolute minimum requirement was a BS in physical sciences or engineering.
> 
> *Generally, we didn't pay much attention to what institution the person had graduated from, as long as it was a reputable institution*.  And once the person had been out of school several years the university meant nothing.



I agree with this.  I hired a lot of individuals with accounting, business and finance degrees.  As long at their degree was from a reputable institution which one it was didn't matter to me.

I'll add that as one who attended 9 universities before graduating, that there were great professors and horrible professors in all of them.  My experience as an Accounting and Finance Double Major was that the best professors I had were businessmen moonlighting by teaching Night School classes.

George


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## lizap (Jul 25, 2015)

A friend of mine paid big bucks for a degree from a major research university that offers an online degree, and she cannot get a job.  Sadly what many of these universities are doing is setting up a separate college that is not accredited and offering degrees through these colleges.  They are doing anything to increase funding.   Recruiters know that most of these 'degrees' are not worth the paper they're written on...  This will continue until the public realizes these degrees are virtually worthless and votes with their dollars..




bogey21 said:


> Agree with this.  I hired a lot of individuals with accounting, business and finance degrees.  I'll add that as one who attended 9 universities before graduating, that there were great professors and horrible professors in all of them.  My experience as an Accounting and Finance Double Major was that the best professors I had were businessmen moonlighting by teaching Night School classes.
> 
> George


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 25, 2015)

lizap said:


> ... Sadly what many of these universities are doing is setting up a separate college that is not accredited and offering degrees through these colleges.  They are doing anything to increase *funding.*   ......



"Funding" is the WRONG WORD ... *it increases profits *while not watering down their "high brow" image and stats for their "main" campus or their "brand name" or their accreditation ranking. Different schools.

WHY? Their main campus is a non-profit operation is shielded from real estate taxes and corporate taxes plus most main campus professors have a seniority schedule and a union with great benefits. Hire some part time lecturers... no or few benefits, use the ALMOST common name, rent some office space, lease some computer time off the main school's computer, hijack the text books selection and share the contracted instructional staff (non-tenured and working for a MAYBE).

So if they lose the NOT FOR PROFIT status with either the state or federal tax code OR the performance of the online students or the placement percentage ... well, that is the ONLINE school (division); NOT the REAL bricks & mortar university with all the elite status and tax breaks.


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## lizap (Jul 25, 2015)

These universities are promoting these programs as basically the same as their in-residence programs and they're NOT.  I know of programs at several large universities like this.  What they do is charge more for these and the kids get an inferior education in return, and to top it off, can't get a job.   The money that comes in is additional revenue that is used to pay for professors teaching 1-2 courses a semester making 200K and up while students are being taught by grad students..  The cost of higher education has gotten out of hand while unfortunately the quality has tanked in many cases..  Unfortunately, people love sports so much at these large research universities that they won't question things..




vacationhopeful said:


> "Funding" is the WRONG WORD ... *it increases profits *while not watering down their "high brow" image and stats for their "main" campus or their "brand name" or their accreditation ranking. Different schools.
> 
> WHY? Their main campus is a non-profit operation is shielded from real estate taxes and corporate taxes plus most main campus professors have a seniority schedule and a union with great benefits. Hire some part time lecturers... no or few benefits, use the ALMOST common name, rent some office space, lease some computer time off the main school's computer, hijack the text books selection and share the contracted instructional staff (non-tenured and working for a MAYBE).
> 
> So if they lose the NOT FOR PROFIT status with either the state or federal tax code OR the performance of the online students or the placement percentage ... well, that is the ONLINE school (division); NOT the REAL bricks & mortar university with all the elite status and tax breaks.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 25, 2015)

lizap said:


> These universities are promoting these programs as basically the same as their in-residence programs and they're NOT.  I know of programs at several large universities like this.  What they do is charge more for these and the kids get an inferior education in return, and to top it off, can't get a job.   The money that comes in is additional revenue that is used to pay for professors teaching 1-2 courses a semester making 200K and up while students are being taught by grad students..  The cost of higher education has gotten out of hand while unfortunately the quality has tanked in many cases..  Unfortunately, people love their sports so much at places like LSU, Alabama, etc.., that they won't question things..



Liz ... we totally AGREE on this! 

It is a rip off by the BIG NAME schools - who is profiting like a bandit. Smoke and mirrors with educational flim-flam ... and mainly it seems to affect the least experience families and the naïve regarding education. 

As for these sports programs ... I graduated from a university which dumped its football program in 1948.


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## x3 skier (Jul 25, 2015)

Another thing I thought I knew that someone proved thru research. Not only is a "Elite" school not worth it, some college degrees are worth less than a community college certificate or degree. 

View "College graduates heading to Sinclair" article at http://tablet.olivesoftware.com/Oli...edArticle.aspx?href=DDN/2015/07/25&id=Ar00101 



"That’s not an uncommon decision, says Mark Schneider, president at College Measures, a research partnership that investigates higher education outcomes. He said college graduates looking for greener pastures, or higher pay, often turn to computer and health care programs.

It’s not out of the ordinary for two-year graduates to out-earn their four-year peers. In 2013, nearly 30 percent of associate degree graduates earned more than those with bachelor’s degrees, according to a report by the Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce.

“My joke is that if you know how to fix things, or to fix people, you are going to be OK,” Schneider said."

Cheers


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## e.bram (Jul 26, 2015)

One phrase an IVY grad does not have to use is "just as good as".


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