# HOA holding the line against MF increases?



## celica7101 (Aug 22, 2018)

How successful are the HOAs of properties like WKORV or WKORV/N at holding the line against MF increases?  

I could understand MF increases due to property taxes and other gov't levied charges, but has there been any successful attempt to prevent additional increases to Vistana's pockets?  I was reviewing the last budget and it seems like the administration for the property is making plenty in compensation and costs could/should be holding the line there. 

Or are the HOA boards just toothless in this regard?


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## Ken555 (Aug 22, 2018)

Of course the board is toothless. It, along with the other affiliated resorts, has a board controlled by the developer/Vistana. 


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## DeniseM (Aug 22, 2018)

They WKORV-N/S boards are virtually hand picked by Starwood/Vistana and simply rubber stamp whatever Starwood/Vistana asks for.


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## TravelTime (Aug 22, 2018)

Are the Boards composed of timeshare owners at WKORV-N/S? If so, why wouldn’t they want to hold down costs?


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## celica7101 (Aug 22, 2018)

That's what I'm not sure of -- I thought that the boards are supposed to be comprised of owners.  Is it just that it's difficult to get seated because people are ambivalent?


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## dioxide45 (Aug 22, 2018)

Our SVV maintenance fees went down for 2018. Better than some other systems we own.


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## LisaRex (Aug 29, 2018)

By law, the non-profit HOA must be comprised of owners.  However, because Starwood got to hand pick the first HOA board (by virtue of owning a majority of the units), who were of course rubber-stampers, they still control the board today.  Why?  Because based on the rules that they created, the current board gets control of all un-cast proxies.   While that is a good thing from a purely logistical POV (you don't want business to come to a screeching halt while you try to get a quorum of 10,000+ owners), it also means that when a seat is vacated on the board, whomever the current board wants to win, will win.  

It's even more unlikely that an outsider will win a seat because the courts have ruled that HOAs are not legally obligated to release owners' names and addresses to third parties (including HOA candidates), because of privacy laws.  How can you organize a coup if you can't communicate with your sympathizers?

If you answered that question: "Via social media," then you've stumbled across the one way which an outsider can realistically win a seat.  It has happened that an "outsider" can infiltrate one of the hotel-branded HOA boards by using social media to organize..but that's historically only happened following a cataclysmic event such as a huge Special Assessment.  Case in point: 10+ years ago, Marriott Aruba owners were hit by a huge SA to replace an expensive roof that should have lasted another 30 years, and frustrated owners used FB to organize.  2 Starwood-branded resorts (Virgin Grand section of WSJ and Villas of Cave Creek) have also  succeeded in wresting control from Starwood, but both resorts existed prior to Starwood getting into the TS business, and as such had advantages that owners from brand new resorts don't enjoy.)

But don't take my word for it.  If you want to see how effective ANY board is at representing owners' interests, just look at how often they meet and what is discussed.  VSE boards meet, what, once or twice a year for 90 minutes?  Personally, I was on a pre-school co-op board with a total budget of $150,000 that met twice a month. When I was an owner, I'll admit that the rubber stamping frustrated me to no end, especially when I was seeing my MFs increase 10% each year.   But to my and other TUGgers great relief, after 5 years of constant increases, MFs FINALLY leveled off at ~$2300.  While I believe their motivation was pure greed, because they realized that they were on the precipice of pissing off owners so badly that they'd organize and get rid of them, if that is what it took to keep my MFs steady, then that was fine with me. 

And that's the thing with these resort HOA boards.  Most owners are there to enjoy themselves. They don't really want to involve themselves in the running of it. As long as the resort is nice and MFs are still below rental rates, most owners are fine letting the developer run things.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 29, 2018)

LisaRex said:


> If you answered that question: "Via social media," then you've stumbled across the one way which an outsider can realistically win a seat.  It has happened that an "outsider" can infiltrate one of the hotel-branded HOA boards by using social media to organize..but that's historically only happened following a cataclysmic event such as a huge Special Assessment.  Case in point: 10+ years ago, Marriott Aruba owners were hit by a huge SA to replace an expensive roof that should have lasted another 30 years, and frustrated owners used FB to organize.  2 Starwood-branded resorts (Virgin Grand section of WSJ and Villas of Cave Creek) have also  succeeded in wresting control from Starwood, but both resorts existed prior to Starwood getting into the TS business, and as such had advantages that owners from brand new resorts don't enjoy.)


Aren't owner names publicly available in the county recorder's office with the deeds?


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## LisaRex (Aug 29, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Aren't owner names publicly available in the county recorder's office with the deeds?



Even if owners ARE recorded, and that's rarely the case,* think of the logistical nightmare of searching for and collecting up to 52 names and addresses PER UNIT to build a database.  For a resort the size of WKORV-N, we're talking ~13,000 records. You'd have to be quite motivated to put in that kind of effort, keeping in mind that many county websites don't include email addresses, either.  And without a free and easy way of communicating with voters, a candidate would be forced to send out communication via USPS, which would mean stuffing 13,000 envelopes at an expense of $6000+ per mailing.

However, in most cases, the county doesn't even record individual week owner names...because the 52 owners don't actually have a legal interest in the real estate itself.  Even "deeded" owners don't actually hold a deed.  Instead, their interest in strictly limited to "right to use." 

Case in point: Maui County lists "OCEAN RESORT VILLAS VACATION OWNERS ASSC" as the owner of all 250 villas at WKORV-N, which is undoubtedly easier for them, PLUS it's legally correct because ORVVOA ACTUALLY does own the property.  While it kind of stinks not to have a legal interest in the property itself because it's a SWEET ocean front parcel, it's actually a good thing for all owners that they don't actually own it: 1) It protects owners from being sued as an individual should someone get hurt on "your" property.  2) It also protects against the possibility of having the county foreclose on a unit should just 1 out of the 52 owners fail to pay his fair share of property taxes. (And if you think that that's a highly unlikely scenario, then you haven't met Maui council! )  

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140030065

*Some counties DO keep track of all 52 owners so that they can bill them individually for property taxes.  WMH and WSJ VG are two such resorts that used to do this, and possibly still do. I believe WMH has already changed their process, but I could be wrong on that.  And who knows what WSJ is doing?  Last I heard, they were YEARS behind in billing for property taxes.


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## DeniseM (Aug 29, 2018)

Also - Vistana has a staff member who manages all of the board elections, and they control the whole election.  They solicit the applications for the board, vet them, and select the candidates that they want to run.

We had a Tugger, an attorney, who ran a few years ago, and when Starwood rejected his application, he brought it to their attention that by law, any owner can run, and forced them to put him on the ballot.  He had a phone interview with the sitting board and was treated with hostility and suspicion.  As Lisa stated above, they did not get a quorum, the board selected a new board member, and they chose one of Starwood's picks - not the Tugger.

In general, based on their Bio's, the board members are affluent people who may not be motivated by keeping the maintenance fees low.  I think Starwood/Vistana makes them feel special and exclusive that they were selected for the board, and they enjoy the perks, and simply rubberstamp whatever Starwood/Vistana puts in front of them.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 29, 2018)

For our Bella and Key West unit weeks, we received our ballot/proxies last week. You were only able to vote for one person for one of the properties and two for the other. Odd thing was that there was only one person that you could vote for on the one and two on the other. So you didn't have a choice other than to write in. I wrote in "is this a joke" on the one where I could only vote for one board member and write in mine and my wife's name on the other.


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## WahooWah (Aug 30, 2018)

Fact #1: I know three of the members of the HOA for WKORV.  They have collectively purchased five weeks on the resale market at this resort.
Fact #2: Here are the last three years maintenance fees for WKORV for a regular 2BR:
2016 - $2,410.80
2017 - $2,420.95
2018 - $2,466.76

That's a 0.4% increase from '16 to '17 and a 1.9% increase from '17 to '18.  That is a compound annual growth rate of 1.15% over two years.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 30, 2018)

WahooWah said:


> Fact #1: I know three of the members of the HOA for WKORV.  They have collectively purchased five weeks on the resale market at this resort.
> Fact #2: Here are the last three years maintenance fees for WKORV for a regular 2BR:
> 2016 - $2,410.80
> 2017 - $2,420.95
> ...


Using a three year sample may not be the best way to look at this. Look at how high those fees are already! What is the increase over the last 10 to 15 years?


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## RX8 (Aug 30, 2018)

Duplicate


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## RX8 (Aug 30, 2018)

celica7101 said:


> I could understand MF increases due to property taxes and other gov't levied charges...



It isn’t just taxes and other government fees that can result in MF increases. You are forgetting salaries (front desk, housekeeping, etc...), landscaping, maintenance, utilities, insurance, laundry services, legal fees, and shuttle vehicles.


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## LisaRex (Aug 30, 2018)

WahooWah said:


> Fact #1: I know three of the members of the HOA for WKORV.  They have collectively purchased five weeks on the resale market at this resort.
> Fact #2: Here are the last three years maintenance fees for WKORV for a regular 2BR:
> 2016 - $2,410.80
> 2017 - $2,420.95
> 2018 - $2,466.76



Are you familiar with the development directly north of Nanea called Honua Kai?  

https://www.honuakai.com/

It is a very nice, TripAdvisor 4.5 star rated, 1-3 bedroom condo development, filled with a blend of owner-occupied and rental units, with beautiful pools and an on-site restaurant, Duke's. 2BR/2BA rental rates are $236/night for IV up to $625/night for OV.  They have ~600 condos, built in 2009, right around the time when WKORV/N was being built, so a very similar property in terms of look, luxury, and maintenance required.

Do you know what the MFs are for their 2 bedroom, 2 bath ~1100 square feet condos?  $1,858 to $2,425 _per month_.  Add in property taxes of $1000/month and $500/month for utilities, and it should cost $4000/month to own the place.  Setting aside another $1000/month for new furniture, new towels, and needed repairs and a landlord-owner should be expected to spend ~$5000 per month. 

WKORV is charging owners $10,000 per month.  

So, while it's great the MFs have held steady, IMO they are easily charging double what it should actually cost to run the place.    

Why not ask your HOA members how much time they've spent in the last year meeting, how many hours they've devoted to poring over competitive bids for, say, housekeeping.  If they say that they let the management firm do that work and trust their recommendation, then that is precisely why they are called "rubber stampers" for the developer.   

https://www.emauirealestate.com/condo/honua-kai
http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140060580


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## WahooWah (Aug 30, 2018)

LisaRex said:


> Are you familiar with the development directly north of Nanea called Honua Kai?
> 
> https://www.honuakai.com/
> 
> ...




I can sympathize with your hurt feelings about Westin's misrepresentation of maintenance fees by subsidizing them in the first five years after development.

I don't believe your numbers for the Honua Kai are accurate nor does your analysis include everything that is covered in the WKORV HOAs.

First, your utilities assumption is grossly undervalued.  Energy for AC, two W/D units combined with cable and internet wifi brings the utilities amount to well over $1,000/month in Maui.

Property taxes for a 2BR at Honua Kai are more than $1,400/month.

$1,000/month implies $60,000 per unit over five years for the full refurnishing, breakage, replacement of linens/towels, carpeting, curtains etc. and the labor involved.  Again, grossly understated.

You also leave out front desk operations and housekeeping, which are major expenses.  Do you now what the property management costs of outsourcing this for the Honua Kai run?

Your $10,000 a month is assuming four Club dues payments of about $150 each.  A more accurate figure for comparison would be $9,200 per month.

You are getting a lot more services and utility with StarOptions, I.I. membership etc. with the Westin than you are with Honua Kai.


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## duke (Aug 30, 2018)

+1 LisaRex


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 30, 2018)

Very interesting comparison @LisaRex. Sadly Marriott/ILG merger may not make this better. While Marriott/Vistana are approaching $2500 - $3k MF. Hyatt and Hilton remain in the $1200 - 2000 range for most properties proving that you operate an equivalent quality resort experience on a significantly lower budget.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 30, 2018)

BTW...I wonder if Honua Kai is non-warrantable given there are so many rentals and non-owner occupied units.

https://themortgagereports.com/18658/condo-mortgage-non-warrantable-loan-rates-gina-pogol

Perhaps most of the buyers are wealthy and paying cash so don't need a mortgage?  Wonder if it affects resale value like it has at other vacation condo developments where prices have dropped because people cannot get mortgages. However prices sure look high...

HT to VacationForever for bringing the non-warrantable issue for vacation condos to my attention.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 30, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> BTW...I wonder if Honua Kai is non-warrantable given there are so many rentals and non-owner occupied units.
> 
> https://themortgagereports.com/18658/condo-mortgage-non-warrantable-loan-rates-gina-pogol
> 
> Perhaps most of the buyers are wealthy and paying cash so don't need a mortgage?  Wonder if it affects resale value like it has at other vacation condo developments where prices have dropped because people cannot get mortgages. However prices sure look high...


This property would require loan amounts that would require private investors. Based on the loan limits, it would start out ineligible for any conventional or FHA financing.


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## LisaRex (Aug 31, 2018)

WahooWah said:


> I don't believe your numbers for the Honua Kai are accurate nor does your analysis include everything that is covered in the WKORV HOAs.



I included a link to a real estate agent's website, where she indicates that the 2 bdrm HOA fees are $1858 to $2425 per month. Not sure why you think that that isn't accurate.  Anyway, below is a listing for a 1240 sq. foot 2 bdrm/2 bath for sale at Honua Kai right now.  (WKORV-N villas are 1230 sq. feet , so as true an apples to apples comparison as I could find.)  The MFs for this unit are listed as $2133.

https://search.emauirealestate.com/maui/5-376389/130-KAI-MALINA-PKWY-606-Lahaina



			
				WahooWah said:
			
		

> First, your utilities assumption is grossly undervalued.  Energy for AC, two W/D units combined with cable and internet wifi brings the utilities amount to well over $1,000/month in Maui.



Most of the utilities are covered with the MFs.  "...(Honua Kai Maintenance) fee covers the costs for water, rubbish removal, sewer, landscaping, basic cable TV service, maintenance and electricity of all common elements, pest control, security, pool, capital reserves, payroll for the management/admin of the association, and insurance for the property...

Individual owners are responsible for electricity charges, phone/internet services, property taxes, and insurance."

https://www.hawaiirealestatesearch.com/blog/honua-kai-hoa-fees.html

So let's expand utility line to $1000 and it should more than cover phone/internet, homeowner's insurance, and electric:

Phone/Internet: Hawaii Telecom's best internet plan is $99.95/month and basic phone is $30/month.  https://broadbandnow.com/Hawaiian-Telcom
Homeowner's Insurance: Homeowner's insurance in Hawaii is actually pretty low, the average homeowner paying ~$1000 a year so that's $84/month. (Loren Clive, a residential real estate broker indicates in her 2nd posting linked below that she pays $469/year for her 1 bdrm/1 bath rental condo, so $1000 in right in line with that.
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forum...rt-term-rental-occupancy-rates-electric-bills
https://www.reviews.com/homeowners-insurance/hawaii/

Electric: That leaves $785/month for electric, which seems reasonable as Loren Clive reported in her first post above that her monthly electric bills for a 1 bdrm/1 bath unit with 1 room a/c was $200-300/mo.
https://www.aimforawesome.com/hawaii/moving-to-hawaii/hawaiis-high-cost-of-living/



			
				WahooWah said:
			
		

> Property taxes for a 2BR at Honua Kai are more than $1,400/month.



Nope.  I actually included a link to the Maui County property tax website, where I linked to an _actual_ 2 bdrm 1230 sq foot condo at Honua Kai. The half year taxes on this property are $6052.88x2 = $12,105.76.  That is $1008.81 per month.

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140060580



			
				WahooWah said:
			
		

> $1,000/month implies $60,000 per unit over five years for the full refurnishing, breakage, replacement of linens/towels, carpeting, curtains etc. and the labor involved.  Again, grossly understated.



Please expand on this. Here's what I can come up with for a budget for a 5-year cycle.  And keep in mind that these are retail prices.  WKORV should receive significant volume discounts on just about everything I've listed, including mattresses, furniture, appliances, carpet, tile, curtains, and linens.

600 sq feet of carpet: $5000 - replaced every 5 years  $5000
600 sq feet of tile: replaced every 10 years -  $13,500 every 10 years or $6750
Painting: Materials and labor: $7300 - every 2.5 years  - $14600
Mattress:  $3000 x 2 beds - replaced every 5 years = $6000
Couch:  $3500 couch and $2000 love seat replaced every 7 years = $5500
Dining table: $2000 replaced every 5 years - $2000
TVs: 42 inch: $600 x 2 - replaced every 5 years - $1200
Sheets, Pillows, comforters = $500 x 2 bdrms replaced every year = $5000
Towels: $200 x 2 bedrooms replaced every year = $400
Curtains:  $1000 x 3 exterior windows replaced every 5 years = $3000
Fridge $1000: replaced every 10 years = $500
Fridge (compact): $520 - replaced every 5 years = $520
Stove: $650 - replaced every 10 years = $325
2 burner cooktop: $585 - replaced every 10 years = $292
Dishwasher: $850 - replaced every 5 years = $850
Compact dishwasher: $820 - replaced every 5 years = $820
Microwave $650 - replaced every 5 years = $650 x 2 = $1300
Washer/Dryer combo - $1500 - replaced every 10 years = $750 x 2 = $1500
Misc kitchen ware, irons, blow dryers: $300 - replaced every year = $1500
New granite: $7500 - replaced every 15 years = $2500
Lanai furniture: $500 - replaced every 5 years x 2 = $1000

Grand total.................$60,557

Am I missing anything major here?

Carpet cost:  https://www.manta.com/cost-carpet-replacement-kihei-hi
Tile cost: https://www.manta.com/cost-tile-installation-kahului-hi
Painting cost:  https://www.manta.com/cost-house-painting-kahului-hi

Furniture was replaced based on this guide: https://www.factotum.co.uk/2017/07/04/furniture-life-span/

Appliance replacement was assisted using this guide: https://www.mrappliance.com/expert-tips/appliance-life-guide/

Appliance costs are based on a middle of the road stainless steel model at Costco plus 30% Hawaii mark-up because I couldn't get my location to switch to Maui.



			
				WahooWah said:
			
		

> You also leave out front desk operations and housekeeping, which are major expenses.  Do you now what the property management costs of outsourcing this for the Honua Kai run?



Front desk operations and security are covered in the $2133/month MFs.  Housekeeping is a fair point. I'd add in $800/month for that.  And, once again, keep in mind that I wouldn't enjoy the benefit of owning 600 units, which would bring the housekeeping cost down significantly.



			
				WahooWah said:
			
		

> Your $10,000 a month is assuming four Club dues payments of about $150 each.  A more accurate figure for comparison would be $9,200 per month.



It really doesn't matter what you call it because an owner is still on the hook for paying it.  We're discussing the REAL cost of ownership vs. what y'all are paying for ownership.  But if you insist, I'll revise it to $9200.

Here are my revised figures:

$2133 MFs
$1008 property taxes
$1000 utilities & homeowner's insurance
$1000 Capital Improvements
$800 Housekeeping
-------
$5941 WITHOUT any volume discounts
v. $9200, which is what WKORV is charging you. 



> You are getting a lot more services and utility with StarOptions, I.I. membership etc. with the Westin than you are with Honua Kai.



What services are you talking about? Spa? Well, I can walk to the one at the Westin! There is an on-site restaurant, Duke's.  II membership can be bought for $100/year.

P.S. I've probably have spent more time composing these posts than your friends have spent running the HOA.


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## LisaRex (Aug 31, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> BTW...I wonder if Honua Kai is non-warrantable given there are so many rentals and non-owner occupied units.
> 
> https://themortgagereports.com/18658/condo-mortgage-non-warrantable-loan-rates-gina-pogol



Yes, at least in 2012:  

https://www.hawaiilife.com/blog/financing-options-honua-kai/


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 31, 2018)

Someone apparently is not looking at the entire history of MFs at WKORV.

Knows 3 (of 5) board members at WKORV?
<BS Alert!>
Name them.


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## WahooWah (Sep 1, 2018)

DavidnRobin said:


> Someone apparently is not looking at the entire history of MFs at WKORV.
> 
> Knows 3 (of 5) board members at WKORV?
> <BS Alert!>
> ...



Are you calling me a liar?


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## WahooWah (Sep 1, 2018)

LisaRex said:


> I included a link to a real estate agent's website, where she indicates that the 2 bdrm HOA fees are $1858 to $2425 per month. Not sure why you think that that isn't accurate.  Anyway, below is a listing for a 1240 sq. foot 2 bdrm/2 bath for sale at Honua Kai right now.  (WKORV-N villas are 1230 sq. feet , so as true an apples to apples comparison as I could find.)  The MFs for this unit are listed as $2133.
> 
> https://search.emauirealestate.com/maui/5-376389/130-KAI-MALINA-PKWY-606-Lahaina
> 
> ...



For the property taxes, you have cherry picked one of the lowest valued 2BR at Honua Kai.  The values of 2BR at Honua Kai are in the $1.6-1.7MM range.  

Your replacement reserve estimates are still very much understated as are your assumptions on housekeeping costs.

Your HOA figure for Honua Kai is also low and not a true representation of the average blend for 2BR ownerships.

The Honua Kai HOAs most certainly do not include the full property management services an owner would need if renting their unit four weeks out of every month.  That has to be added to your total.  Do you know who provides these services and what they charge?  For a true apples to apples comparison, it has to be a full property management provider.

I'm surprised that there are not more owners in this forum who stand up for the value of their ownership.  There are several very prolific and loud posters on this forum who take as many negative angles as they can to discourage any kind of ownership, retail or resale.  I'm guessing its because they either have an axe to grind or they have some other profit motive such as encouraging rentals of their own units instead of ownership.  It certainly isn't a good thing for any owner that these voices are not challenged more.


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## LisaRex (Sep 4, 2018)

WahooWah said:


> For the property taxes, you have cherry picked one of the lowest valued 2BR at Honua Kai.  The values of 2BR at Honua Kai are in the $1.6-1.7MM range.



I simply linked to the first condo I found that had a 2 bdrm 2 bath ~1230 sq. footage.  If you can provide a link to another higher valued, similar-sized condo, we can average them together.  That's what the WKORV HOA does when it passes the property tax cost on to its owners; IV owners pay the same property taxes as OF owners.



			
				WahooWah said:
			
		

> Your replacement reserve estimates are still very much understated as are your assumptions on housekeeping costs.



And yet you still cannot explain WHY you think it's understated, or offer up data to support your opinion. 
FYI, my housekeeping costs of $200/week was based on a simple internet search of housekeeping rates for a 2 bdrm/2 bath condo on Maui:

https://mauicleaningcare.com/services/
https://hulamaids.com/pricing/ 

Further data:
This 1325 sq foot 2 bdrm/2 bath owner at Honua Kai charges renters $225 a week for housekeeping.   https://www.vrbo.com/821174
This 1200 sq. foot 2 bdrm/2 bath owner at Polo Beach club (a super nice condo complex in Wailea, the swankiest part of Maui) charges $175/week cleaning fee.   https://www.vrbo.com/90443

Once again, this is what a private individual might expect to pay.  The management team at WKORV should be able to negotiate a much better deal for their owners due to volume.  Last I checked, the HOA was charging WKORV owners ~$450/week for housekeeping. Given that the average housekeeper makes $14.66/hour in Hawaii, that should pay for 30 hours of housekeeping per owner. Does that seem reasonable to you?

https://work.chron.com/average-housekeeping-wages-1481.html



> Your HOA figure for Honua Kai is also low and not a true representation of the average blend for 2BR ownerships.



No it's not low.  It's the actual rate for that ~1200 sf unit, which is almost the exact size as a WKORV-N unit.  MFs at both WKORV and Honua Kai are based on square footage of the unit, not the valuation of the condo.  Or do you not believe that it takes the same amount of time to clean a 1200 sf ocean front condo as it does a 1200 sf island view condo?  Or that a 1200 sf OF unit somehow uses more water, electricity, and cable than an IV owner?  Or that an OV owner uses the pool more?

https://www.hawaiirealestatesearch.com/blog/honua-kai-hoa-fees.html



> The Honua Kai HOAs most certainly do not include the full property management services an owner would need if renting their unit four weeks out of every month.



HOAs go to maintaining the property to a certain standard.  They're not supposed to go towards assisting owners in renting out their unit.  Owners at either resort who choose to rent out their unit must do the work of advertising, fielding questions, writing contracts, collecting money, adding names to the reservation, etc. themselves, or they must hire an agent (on their own dime) to do the work.  So I'm not sure what your point is here.



> I'm surprised that there are not more owners in this forum who stand up for the value of their ownership.  There are several very prolific and loud posters on this forum who take as many negative angles as they can to discourage any kind of ownership, retail or resale.



Whether I advise someone to own usually depends on a simple analysis of how much it costs to own vs. renting a comparable unit.  That is the way that I can calculate "value."  How do you calculate value of ownership?



> I'm guessing its because they either have an axe to grind or they have some other profit motive such as encouraging rentals of their own units instead of ownership.



LOL.  Well, I WISH I owned a rental condo at Honua Kai.  Does that count?

Personally, I'm guessing that most owners know that their fees are higher than they should be, but as long as they're not being hosed too badly, as long as fees remain stable, and as long as their home resort is still beautiful, they'll just shrug it off as the cost of owning one a hotel-branded timeshare. 

And FYI, that is a perfectly reasonable stance to take if you have the money to afford it.  However, the question was whether the HOA was trying to hold costs down, and I'm trying to explain why the HOA isn't really doing anything but rubber stamping what the management team presents to them.  



> It certainly isn't a good thing for any owner that these voices are not challenged more.


Honest and respectful dialogue is always a good thing IMO.  "You are wrong" is not furthering a discussion, unless you can explain WHY you think I'm wrong.  You are great at offering up unsubstantiated opinions. but talk is cheap.

IMO, if any "challenging" should be done, it's that ALL owners should challenge their HOA representatives to actually do the job that they were elected to do, sham election or not, and that is to represent the owners.  They should be asking questions on owner's behalf, such as, "What exactly are "Financial Services" that I see on this balance sheet, that we owners are paying over a quarter of a million dollars for?  or  "Given that the average housekeeper makes less than $15/hour, can we look at our contract to see what rate we're paying?"

Remember, the entire purpose of an HOA board is to provide a check-and balance to the management team, who clearly represent their (for profit) interests.


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## LisaRex (Sep 4, 2018)

Deleted - duplicate post


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## Ken555 (Sep 4, 2018)

LisaRex said:


> IMO, if any "challenging" should be done, it's that ALL owners should challenge their HOA representatives to actually do the job that they were elected to do, sham election or not, and that is to represent the owners.  They should be asking questions on owner's behalf, such as, "What exactly are "Financial Services" that I see on this balance sheet, that we owners are paying over a quarter of a million dollars for?  or  "Given that the average housekeeper makes less than $15/hour, can we look at our contract to see what rate we're paying?"



^^^THIS

More transparency would help owners understand where their money is being spent, and create more questions and problems for management. It won't happen, though we can always hope.


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## Maui_ed (Sep 4, 2018)

Well said, @LisaRex, well said!


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## WahooWah (Sep 4, 2018)

LisaRex said:


> I simply linked to the first condo I found that had a 2 bdrm 2 bath ~1230 sq. footage.  If you can provide a link to another higher valued, similar-sized condo, we can average them together.  That's what the WKORV HOA does when it passes the property tax cost on to its owners; IV owners pay the same property taxes as OF owners.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I provided the average value of a 2BR at Honua Kai.  The tax rate for a this category is $9.37/$1,000 of assessed value.  That comes to at least $1,250 per month.

Vistana provides full reservation and concierge services for its owners (home reservations, StarOptions, SPG points, etc.).  How do you propose they eliminate this expense, which you have completely excluded from your analysis?

And, yes, claiming that Vistana charges DOUBLE than what one would ordinarily have to pay is flat out WRONG and purposefully misleading (axe to grind?).  You would make a great salesman at these resorts!


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## WahooWah (Sep 4, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> ^^^THIS
> 
> More transparency would help owners understand where their money is being spent, and create more questions and problems for management. It won't happen, though we can always hope.
> 
> ...



I certainly agree with this and LisaRex's point that all owners should challenge the decisions made by the HOA.  But that should not invalidate my point that LisaRex has gone through some incredible lengths to misrepresent the value differences between owning at WKORV and comparable alternatives.  THAT should also be of great concern to owners, IMO.  Imagine if you were attempting to sell your property and someone who is no longer even an owner at your property and who has previously expressed his anger publicly towards the HOA of this property many, many times, spends a great deal of his free time compiling this information (inaccurately) and uses it to dissuade someone from even considering owning your property even if purchasing on the resale market.  What would you think then?

Another question.  If you were an owner at this property for the last ten years, would you or would you not appreciate a) that the HOA has fought heavily at a significantly high cost to fight the county of Maui for their discriminatory and vindictive property tax assessments against the Vistana owners? and b) that the HOAs have been kept relatively flat for two years running.

(BTW, I didn't even bring up the fact that timeshare properties are assessed MORE than the $9.37/$1,000 figure I provided in my previous post)


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## LisaRex (Sep 5, 2018)

WahooWah said:


> I provided the average value of a 2BR at Honua Kai.  The tax rate for a this category is $9.37/$1,000 of assessed value.  That comes to at least $1,250 per month.



Where did you get the averages from? I'm looking at the actual database for property taxes and am finding assessed values for 2 bdrm/2 bath 1230sf units to be between $1M to $1.6M, with the vast majority being assessed at ~$1.2M, which is about $1000/month. 

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140060368&
http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140060580
http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140060594&
http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140060599&
http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140060610&
http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140060617&
http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140060378&
http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140060373&

Yes, timeshares are taxed much higher than other properties.  Honua Kai was originally classified as a hotel/resort, but it appears that owner-occupied units are now being classified as "Apartment" ($6.31/$1000)and non-owner occupied units are now being taxed at a brand new classification called "Short Term Rental" ($9.28/$1000).



> Another question. If you were an owner at this property for the last ten years, would you or would you not appreciate a) that the HOA has fought heavily at a significantly high cost to fight the county of Maui for their discriminatory and vindictive property tax assessments against the Vistana owners? and b) that the HOAs have been kept relatively flat for two years running.



As a former owner of WKORV-N, I remain convinced that around 2008, some Starwood official did something egregious, such as having an affair with the Mayor's wife or kicking his puppy, because it was clear that Maui council was going to do everything it could, legally or not, to harm current and future SVO developments.  While I honestly don't know who started the pissing contest, I wished that they'd end it already because the only people harmed in it were the owners.  Do not be fooled:  Every single dime spent in paying higher property taxes and/or fighting the property taxes was simply passed along to the owners.

That being said, I assume that the emergency SA that was collected a few years back in order to pay for the discriminatory and ultimately illegal retroactive assessment will soon be returned to owners and not simply absorbed by mysterious and undocumented "fees" associated with fighting it.



> Vistana provides full reservation and concierge services for its owners (home reservations, StarOptions, SPG points, etc.). How do you propose they eliminate this expense, which you have completely excluded from your analysis?



This is what the SVN fees pay, which was deducted from the analysis at your suggestion.


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## Maui_ed (Sep 5, 2018)

LisaRex said:


> That being said, I assume that the emergency SA that was collected a few years back in order to pay for the discriminatory and ultimately illegal retroactive assessment will soon be returned to owners and not simply absorbed by mysterious and undocumented "fees" associated with fighting it.


As a current owner of WKORVN, I too hope that the assessment is returned to the owners.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 5, 2018)

Maui_ed said:


> As a current owner of WKORVN, I too hope that the assessment is returned to the owners.


I think @LisaRex is hoping it is returned to the original owner that paid the SA, not the current owners. There are a number of people that paid it that are now no longer owners and if returned it would go back to the new owner that never paid the SA.


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## LisaRex (Sep 5, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> I think @LisaRex is hoping it is returned to the original owner that paid the SA, not the current owners.



I didn't pay the SA, even though I owned in the year that was retroactively taxed.  So, yes,  I absolutely hope that it's returned to whomever paid the SA.


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## vacationtime1 (Sep 5, 2018)

LisaRex said:


> I didn't pay the SA, even though I owned in the year that was retroactively taxed.  So, yes,  *I absolutely hope that it's returned to whomever paid the SA*.



That won't happen.  The Vistana-controlled HOA Board will use any tax refund to keep MF's artificially low for a couple of years to make themselves (and Vistana) look good in the process.

The excuse will be that it would be too expensive to track down each owner who paid the SA years earlier, that many owners had died, that trustees have been changed, etc.


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## Maui_ed (Sep 5, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> I think @LisaRex is hoping it is returned to the original owner that paid the SA, not the current owners. There are a number of people that paid it that are now no longer owners and if returned it would go back to the new owner that never paid the SA.


Ah, did not read it that way initially.  I owned at the time, paid the SA, and still own, so was looking at it perhaps more selfishly.  I agree with the sentiment that those who paid should be the ones to whom the refund is given, if there is a refund.  Not convinced there will be, though.


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## WahooWah (Sep 5, 2018)

LisaRex said:


> This is what the SVN fees pay, which was deducted from the analysis at your suggestion.



No, the SNV fees do not cover these expenses.  They cover the I.I. membership and I would guess fees associated with StarOptions.  The home resort reservation system and associated expenses are paid for through the HOAs. 

I can say with nearly 100% certainty that the SA will not go back to those who originally paid for it and subsequently sold.  It is a legal and administrative nightmare that would cost a lot of additional money to do otherwise, unfortunately.  Just like those owners who were assessed the SA even though they never may have had use during the time period of the back-tax (2006-2008), those who paid the tax and then sold their property will not get their money back.  This is just my speculation, but I'm pretty sure that a good portion of the SA will be used to pay off legal expenses for all of the separate legal battles the HOA is and has been fighting against the county for almost ten years now and anything left over will fund regular HOA expenses.


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## Ken555 (Sep 5, 2018)

WahooWah said:


> No, the SNV fees do not cover these expenses.  They cover the I.I. membership and I would guess fees associated with StarOptions.  The home resort reservation system and associated expenses are paid for through the HOAs.



This is not a high cost by any means.


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## WahooWah (Sep 7, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> This is not a high cost by any means.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Really?  Because a Honua Kai owner would have to pay a property manager 20-25% of the rental proceeds for this same cost.


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## Ken555 (Sep 7, 2018)

WahooWah said:


> Really?  Because a Honua Kai owner would have to pay a property manager 20-25% of the rental proceeds for this same cost.



To be clear, my earlier statement that it is not a high cost was in reference to the owner cost of the infrastructure expense at Vistana which operates the reservation system.

I am unclear what the Honua Kai charges for renting owners units, as it's been years since I reviewed it. But, I believe it was less (and easier) than having an independent management company. 

In any case I think it rather unfair to propose that we should allocate a similar amount for the Vistana reservation infrastructure as we would for an independent. That actually tells us quite a lot about your objectivity here...

And, FWIW, I'm still waiting for you to respond to the well thought out post earlier especially in regards to the cost of housekeeping services. You seem to only respond to items you want to discuss so perhaps before we continue you could scroll up and respond in more detail. Thanks.


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## WahooWah (Sep 7, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> To be clear, my earlier statement that it is not a high cost was in reference to the owner cost of the infrastructure expense at Vistana which operates the reservation system.
> 
> I am unclear what the Honua Kai charges for renting owners units, as it's been years since I reviewed it. But, I believe it was less (and easier) than having an independent management company.
> 
> ...



Your contributions to the discussion so far have been conjecture, uninformed opinions, baseless accusations and a general sense of entitlement.  I have not seen you present a single fact or a shred of thoughtful analysis to this topic.


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## DeniseM (Sep 7, 2018)

It's interesting to hear the corporate side of the picture, because I thought Vistana had a strict policy against employees participating in TUG.  Maybe that was a Starwood policy, and Vistana has approved your participation?


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## WahooWah (Sep 7, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> It's interesting to hear the corporate side of the picture, because I thought Vistana had a strict policy against employees participating in TUG.  Maybe that was a Starwood policy, and Vistana has approved your participation?



Interesting perspective from someone who profits from renting out their StarOptions for profit and discourages people from owning at WKORV directly and renting instead.  But I have never been an employee of Vistana or Starwood ever.


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## DeniseM (Sep 7, 2018)

WaHooWah - I know you are new here, but many, many people on TUG rent their timeshares for a profit - no shocker there.

This is the deal:  It's not a good value to buy from the developer, because developer purchases include huge profit margins and fat commissions for the sales people.  That is the majority view on TUG - on all forums/all systems.  So anytime a noobie shows up with a developer purchase, we advise them to rescind, do their research, and buy resale, if they decide that buying is the right choice for them.  However, there are many people who should not buy, for a variety of reasons.


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## WahooWah (Sep 7, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> WaHooWah - I know you are new here, but many, many people on TUG rent their timeshares for a profit - no shocker there.
> 
> This is the deal:  It's not a good value to buy from the developer, because developer purchases include huge profit margins and fat commissions for the sales people.  That is the majority view on TUG - on all forums/all systems.  So anytime a noobie shows up with a developer purchase, we advise them to rescind, do their research, and buy resale, if they decide that buying is the right choice for them.  However, there are many people who should not buy, for a variety of reasons.



I totally agree with everything that you said above, except for that fact that I am new here or a noob.  I joined this forum in 2010 and have read it off and on over the last eight years.  I think it is important for people who are contemplating purchasing to understand your first statement, that many people on TUG rent their timeshares for profit.  They should contemplate how that fact might bias the poster's advice and recommendations on whether or not to make a purchase.


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## DeniseM (Sep 7, 2018)

WahooWah - Since you have years of experience on TUG, you've probably noticed that your pro-management approach is out of step with TUG.  Please tell us why you promote buying a timeshare, and defend the management company, so we can understand where you are coming from.

I don't know too many people who know 3 board members, so you obviously have a close connection with the Maui resorts.  We'd love to know what experience you have, to back up your strong opinions.


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## WahooWah (Sep 7, 2018)

I choose not to provide much information other than what I have provided.  I do not consider myself to be pro-management.  That is not my stance at all.  All I have done is poke holes into the incomplete analysis of someone who, from what I can discern from their posting history, has an axe to grind with WKORV in particular, and encourage other owners to raise their voices and defend their ownership from posters whose bias purposefully and unjustifiably devalue their property.  If you feel more comfortable with assigning labels, I guess you could say that I am pro-owner, not pro-management.  I do appreciate the work that the board is doing to fight the illegal actions of the Maui County Council (for a number of other reasons unrelated to this thread), I am ecstatic for ALL owners of Maui timeshare that these efforts appear to be paying off and I find it encouraging for WKORV owners that the HOA fees have been more or less flat for the last three years.

I can't control how people feel if my opinions and facts contradict the narrative of certain posters on this board.


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## DeniseM (Sep 7, 2018)

> encourage other owners to *raise their voices and defend their ownership*



When someone comes to TUG, and wants us to "raise our voices and defend our ownership," it's usually because they are sales people.  It will be interesting to see who you turn out to be.

Since you are located in Lahaina, I'm guessing sales, or perhaps a local reseller, or since you know 3 board members, maybe lower management.  Aloha!


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## WahooWah (Sep 7, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> When someone comes to TUG, and wants us to "raise our voices and defend our ownership," it's usually because they are sales people.  It will be interesting to see who you turn out to be.
> 
> Since you are located in Hawaii, I'm guessing sales, or perhaps a local reseller, or since you know 3 board members, maybe lower management.  Aloha!



And it's interesting to me when you advise buying prospects that they shouldn't purchase at the home resorts and should either rent or buy at a cheaper resort and use StarOptions to make reservations at the 8 month reservation mark as if it is an effective cure-all for someone who wants to come to Maui every year and that owning at the home resort is never a good idea.  I guess it is all just really "interesting".  Please spare me your self-righteous witch-hunt nonsense.


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## DeniseM (Sep 7, 2018)

Hmmm... Touched a nerve, I guess.


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## Ken555 (Sep 7, 2018)

WahooWah said:


> Your contributions to the discussion so far have been conjecture, uninformed opinions, baseless accusations and a general sense of entitlement.  I have not seen you present a single fact or a shred of thoughtful analysis to this topic.



Your response does not encourage a civil discussion about this topic. Your posts also ignores the thoughtful and detailed earlier post, and I find it unfortunate that your escalation of this discussion with personal attacks is necessary. 

Without evidence to the contrary, it seems your bias is extremely pro management. Historically, that bias on TUG tends to indicate an employee or otherwise affiliated with the industry. Your refusal to comment further on the three purported board members you know personally only encourages our disbelief. 

Of course, someone needs to purchase these timeshares from the developer, so don’t let us stop you from buying some...I hear there’s a time limited great deal so you should consider buying today! 


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## bizaro86 (Sep 7, 2018)

I 'liked' the post from @LisaRex but I wanted to further that by saying a more comprehensive thank you. That is one of the best posts I've seen on Tug, potentially ever. It was thorough and thoughtful, and included citations.

I don't own at any of the Maui resorts (although I've been there a few times, either on packages or as a renter). I think the best thing owners there could do would be gather up those 13k names from the deeds and send everyone a printout of that post by lisarex, and ask them to contact their board about why their costs are so much higher.

My personal opinion, is that Vistana raises MF to approximately the usage value of the lowest season unit. As evidence for this, I comment that WKORV fees are lower than WKORVN which are lower than Nanea. WKORV is held down by the island view deluxe units, which are getting pretty close to zero value, imo. WKORVN is a bit higher because there are no outliers, and nanea is even higher because they assigned more maintenance to the ocean front units so they can get more money there without raising the MF on the resort view out of line with value. This pattern is broadly repeated across the portfolio, with low season units at most resorts worth ~0, but the MF increases always seem to stop there, and even though vistana doesn't do takebacks directly there aren't many units with a deeply negative value.

I'm not sure why they'd do that, maybe they use any money in excess of the actual expenses to purchase things from affiliated companies to pad their own bottom line. There was some discussion awhile back about what various resorts were spending on buying cable/telephone services from a Vistana owned company, as one example.

If anyone decides to actually do a mail out, I'd be happy to contribute something to the cost even though I wouldn't personally benefit from any changes.


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## YYJMSP (Sep 7, 2018)

the other thing to consider is while MFs may have been flat over the last few years, they've basically doubled over the last 10yrs...


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## DeniseM (Sep 8, 2018)

Here's the other thing:  Vistana makes a percentage of the maintenance fee for managing the resort - they higher the MF is, the more they make.


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## FamilyEsq (Sep 16, 2018)

Just an FYI.  The Ritz Carlton Residences has similar/more luxurious 2 bedroom/2 bath lock-off condos for sale that have use of the Ritz hotel amenities.  The Ritz Carlton Residences have a rental program whereby Owners can rent out the condo.  The Ritz Carlton Hotel manages the check-in/check out of guests.  The Residences also have a third party to manage rentals.

Monthly Maintenance:  $3293.44

I am quite certain that the Ritz is still making money charging $3293.44 monthly.

http://www.luxuryrealestatemaui.com...al-estate-the-ritz-carlton-residenc-for-sale/

http://www.luxuryrealestatemaui.com...lton-dr-1221-23-kapalua-real-estate-for-sale/


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