# Murano - Fractional and Condo Cruise ship



## puffpuff

Any one have interest or information on the Murano, a boutique condo cruise ship that sails around the world once every two years and repeat itself. 

Interestingly, the business model evolves around renting part of the ship out and using the income for operating expense The financial aspects, according to the sales literature , are compelling. Voyage partners are promoting this and their website is www.voyagepartners.com

The first ship is almost sold out after 9 months of reservation activity, and is schedule to set sail in the fall 2007. 

Compare to competitors ( Residencesea, Magellan), the Murano is 70% less expansive. Like Destination club, the Murano caters to investors and value play owners without the hype. Much like HCC model. 

With 100% financing, there is a net cash positive of $70,000 for each full ownership ( $400000 to $1,00,000) or proportionally less for fractionals that start as little as $100,000 for 8 weeks of use. 

A good powerpoint presentation here: http://voyagepartners.com/passIncome.php

There is also an exchange program set up with resort2resort ( resort2resort.com)

I have just joined HCC recently and is looking into whether participating in this cruise ship is a worthwhle excercise.  

In particular, I am concern about the viability of their cash flow and sustainabiliy long term. 

All comments are welcome. 

Here is a brief excerpt from the voyagepartners.com website: 

The Concept

Voyage Partners has contracted with Condo Cruise Lines International (CCLI) to market residential suites on their boutique cruise ships. CCLI is creating a fleet of 5-6 luxury cruise ships over the next 2-3 years. They purchase smaller ships, refurbish them into luxury suites and offer them as five star luxury residential cruising vessels. Voyage Partners brings this opportunity to you.

Here's the Real Brilliance

On every ship there will be one deck of suites that are not for sale. These suites will be rented out to the public through travel agencies. The revenue from these suites is expected to completely fund the ships’ annual operating budget. This innovative idea developed by Condo Cruise Lines will keep your Home Owners Association fees the lowest on the seas. Suite owners can live in their suite full time or they can rent their suite out to create potential rental income.  Based on hospitality industry standards in the United States, an annual 15% vacancy rates should be accounted for when projecting potential rental income.   Please seek the advice of your tax consultant to explore how ownership can benefit you personally.
Resident Cruising Will Make You a “Planetary Citizen”

These smaller luxury cruise ships are able to visit more intimate ports of call, staying in those ports long enough for you to thoroughly visit the region. The ports of call offered to you will include the best in international itinerary, and when possible, we will coordinate our itinerary with major cultural events and festivals world-wide.


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## jesse james

greetings,
I have been looking at several fractional ownership company's and this seems to bethe best. I have purchased a penthouse for 8 weeks and will ty it out first.  If everything works out after 1 year of operations, then I plan to buy a full year.


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## Steamboat Bill

puffpuff and jesse james

Welcome to TUG. 

Your posts and comments are welcome as long as they are not for the sole purpose as an undercover sales pitch. I am NOT implying that your posts are that, but you BOTH are new members and the implications can be inferred based ONLY on the two above posts.

Either way, as the moderator of this forum, I think a healthy and objective discussion of Murano will benefit us all and I am looking forward to other posts from other members that may be interested in this type of ownership.


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## puffpuff

*Murano*

Its hard to find info on Murano. I have learn a lot from this forum and realize that members here are valued oriented. The Murano is quite compelling if all goes well, but I am getting a bit anxious about committing a whole unit . I think a fractional may make sense, but a whole unit is about 30% discount. Perhaps those of us who is interested can get together to get one whole unit, and split it ourselves, will will result in 30% more time usage as compare to a fractional from them. 



P.S. I am not involved in any sales of the company. I am a potential end user.


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## jesse james

*Murano*

PS also,
I a not involved in any sales either,

Greetings puff puff, 
It does make more sense to buy a full suite. If you check out their web site, they only have inside full suites available. I made a deposit for the Penthouse suite with portholes.
There is also a real estate group call Marshall Reddick that has all types of seminars and expos.  They had one i this past month and several people but deposits down for partial ownerships.
But it does make more sense to buyy a full year with several investors and save some money or acquire more weeks for the same price and have more weeks to rent out.
If my penthouse works out this first year, then I will probably buy a full year on the 2nd ship.

Jesse
and NO, I do not represent Marshall Reddick nor Voyage Partners


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## puffpuff

I discovered the Murano by surfing the web just recently, and reserved one full unit ( Tri-M inside ) as no outside units at the pricing of 525,000. According to the sales people, the ship is almost sold out, but they are very tight lip and hardlly provide any more info other than what is on the website. 

They are still talking about setting sail in the fall of 2007 but there is no where to book if you wish to be guest and take the maden voyage, and these voyages are usually well publicizsed 1-2  years in advance.. That is one reason I am gettihng a bit anxious.

I will look into Marshall Reddick.  I thought they are into traditional single family homes real estate . Are they selling the Murano now ?

Being not in the cruise industry, I am quite concern how viable their financial model is. I would be happy if we discount their projection by 50%, which means that a whole unit will generate, about 30,000 a year with no money down, so to say. 

The nightmare would be if the ship does not generate enough cash from guest  suites to operate in the green, and owners have to front more than the $11000 per year. From my research, running a ship of this size cost about 10 million, and that is why luxury ships like Residensea and Magellan home owners fee ( excluding meals ) runs about 10,000 per month per condo.  Would hate to get stuck with that kind of bill just to keep the boat afloat. How likely will this nightmare senerio come thru in your view. 

Is there any industry expert that can guide us through some of these numbers financailly speaking ?

Are you concern with the financial viablity of this project? by the way, i think for long term stay, portholes are really critical. 

Thanks Jesse for your thoughts. I am very green at this.


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## cyberluke

*Reserved a suite...*

Hi all,

I reserved a suite (saw the pitch at a Marshal Reddick expo). I'm very excited about this and it sounds like an amazing deal if the financial projections work out even considerably less than what they propose in their scenarios...

But that's the thing... the maiden voyage, there's no passengers booked as far as I am concerned. And a ship is a very very expensive thing to co-own.

Overall I'm very optimistic, but still need to do more research on this. I will try and post what I learn (about the cruise *luxury* industry specifically), since I know absolutely nothing at this point. Maybe we can all help each other out this way?


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## puffpuff

cyberluke said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I reserved a suite (saw the pitch at a Marshal Reddick expo). I'm very excited about this and it sounds like an amazing deal if the financial projections work out even considerably less than what they propose in their scenarios...
> 
> But that's the thing... the maiden voyage, there's no passengers booked as far as I am concerned. And a ship is a very very expensive thing to co-own.
> 
> Overall I'm very optimistic, but still need to do more research on this. I will try and post what I learn (about the cruise *luxury* industry specifically), since I know absolutely nothing at this point. Maybe we can all help each other out this way?


Amazing is the right word !! Please note that they have revamp the floorplan recently . You need to contact them to have your unit reconfirmed . 

The maden voyage date of late summer is still on according to sales department, but I agree with you that more reserch is needed. 

It will be great to have an active thread on this as I am sure there are no less than 200 owners ( full or fractional) out there and we can sure learn from each other especially at this stage


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## iamatraveler

*here are my thoughts - a liveaboard-to-be*

Hi everybody,
      I am so glad to have found this forum. I have always wished that I can exchange ideas/news with my fellow "Muranonites".
      I have been "on board" since their first press release in Jan 2006. It is my dream to travel the world comfortably, leisurely and affordably. This appears to be the only way I can afford to do it. (I am not associated with Condo Cruise Lines in any way at all. I am only a person who looks for a way to travel the world in my semi golden years.) Anyway, after some investigation on the people involved and some analysis, I took a leap of faith and made the reservation deposit in Feb. 2006. Have been keeping a close eye on their progress.
      In the 15 months since their first announcement they have made optimistic forecasts but have to scale back several times due to, I believe, the "newness" of this project. However, they did make some progress, especially in sales (from what I read in this forum it appears that they really have only some inside suites available currently), and, appear to be moving along towards the rennovation process.
      In their April newsletter, they announced that they have hired a branding company who has helped them formualte a strategy to promote their company image and target the intended audience. They are also trying to recruit a "tour operator" to handle the booking of the guest suites. That is why, I guess, no one can make any reservation yet. I suppose it is a catch-22 situation - the ship is not ready, not even the marketing materials for promoting the ship is in the making yet, so it is not possible to market the cruise business; as long as the cruise booking has not started, they cannot/will not begin the ship's rennovation process. If they don't have a rennovated, ready-for-booking ship, they cannot market it!!   
      The rennovation will take a few months. The way it looks now, I estimate the ship will set sail, at the earliest, October 2007. (They said it should be by fall 2007).
       I am wishing with all my might that all goes well and we can set sail really soon. Also wishing that their concept and their numbers (money needed to operate the ship) are good/accurate enough to make it work.  
       I also feel that they are tight-lipped and not very forthcoming in giving out information. So if we can gather more fellow "Muranonites" to exchange news and views it'd really be great.


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## jesse james

Greetings Cyber Luke and I Am A Traveler,
I am also glad to see other buyers on this ship.
As mentioned my Puff Puff, the floor plans have changed. Why? I will call 
Voyage Partners to inquire. I have reserved a Penthouse under my Insurance Corporation which reads 2 Queen bedrooms and a living area with a sofa sleeper. It also had a guest bathroom as you enter and a kitchenette with Refridgerator, sink and microwave. Now their diagram shows 1 queen bedroom and the 2nd bedroom that showed 2 beds, now shows 1 sofa sleeper and no
Kitchenette or guest bedroom.
I will let you know what I find out.
My Penthouse is $200,000 for 8 weeks, but I have spoke to another buyer in maybe buying an inside suite(same size) for $750,000 52 weeks between 
3 or 4 buyers. That would give us 13 weeks instead of 8 for less money 
$187,550 for 4 buyers. If interested please respond.


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## Dave M

There are huge questions about the viability of this endeavor. Some of the issues include:
Whether the cash flow projections are viable. This specialty ship will be trying an unproven formula for generating that cash flow.
Whether there is a market - or enough of a market - for public rentals on a cruise ship that spends multiple days in various ports remains to be seen. Will the renting public with limited vacation be willing to spend big bucks for more days in a single port at the expense of not visiting as many ports during the cruise interval? Only time will tell.
That this purchase for $400,000 that is 100% financed might generate $70,000 of annual cash flow seems impossible to me. I know a little about the cruise industry from my years as a CPA serving one of the major cruise lines and from analyzing financials from my own (past) cruise line equity investment. I can assure you that such a magical success formula hasn't yet been discovered by any of the major cruise lines!
Similarly, the idea that renting a single deck of suites will fund the ship's entire operating budget would also be welcome news to the mainline cruise lines. If it happens, the other cruise lines will be standing in line to figure out how it's done!
The proposed exchange program with Resort-to-Resort leaves me with many questions, which go far beyond what is possible to explore here. However, Resort-to-Resort touts its connection to ICE Gallery for mainline cruise exchanges and ICE doesn't have a great reputation here at TUG.
I'm sure a supporter for the concept will have ready answers for my concerns. However, when it comes to investing my money, I'm not willing to take the substantial risk that, as the guinea pig, I'll be the first to lose all of my investment in a possible bankruptcy.


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## puffpuff

Your multiple concerns are well taken and I think you hit the nail right on the head from the business model perspective and the question of its viability. Perhaps it is good for us to have a realistic understanding of the industry numbers. 

Based on the current new floorplan , there are 86 guest suites and total of 240 rooms (. The previous plan calls for 160 rooms total with 55 guest suites.) 
Based on 80% occupancy , $ 2000 per week ( $150 per person per day, double occupancy), 50 weeks usage, the total revenue would come in at about 11 million on room revenue. With a 20% marketing expense  ( 2 million )and additional 1 million in net casino revenue, the total revenue before operating expense comes to about $10million.  Is this number remotely close to reality based on your expereince for a small ship like this? What is the operating cost in terms for a ship this size ( 250 rooms carrying about 500 passengers) per year? 

Yoiur input is very much appreicated. YOu will not be held accountable for your best guestimates.


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## puffpuff

iamatraveler said:


> Hi everybody,
> I am so glad to have found this forum. I have always wished that I can exchange ideas/news with my fellow "Muranonites".
> I have been "on board" since their first press release in Jan 2006. It is my dream to travel the world comfortably, leisurely and affordably. This appears to be the only way I can afford to do it. (I am not associated with Condo Cruise Lines in any way at all. I am only a person who looks for a way to travel the world in my semi golden years.) Anyway, after some investigation on the people involved and some analysis, I took a leap of faith and made the reservation deposit in Feb. 2006. Have been keeping a close eye on their progress.
> In the 15 months since their first announcement they have made optimistic forecasts but have to scale back several times due to, I believe, the "newness" of this project. However, they did make some progress, especially in sales (from what I read in this forum it appears that they really have only some inside suites available currently), and, appear to be moving along towards the rennovation process.
> In their April newsletter, they announced that they have hired a branding company who has helped them formualte a strategy to promote their company image and target the intended audience. They are also trying to recruit a "tour operator" to handle the booking of the guest suites. That is why, I guess, no one can make any reservation yet. I suppose it is a catch-22 situation - the ship is not ready, not even the marketing materials for promoting the ship is in the making yet, so it is not possible to market the cruise business; as long as the cruise booking has not started, they cannot/will not begin the ship's rennovation process. If they don't have a rennovated, ready-for-booking ship, they cannot market it!!
> The rennovation will take a few months. The way it looks now, I estimate the ship will set sail, at the earliest, October 2007. (They said it should be by fall 2007).
> I am wishing with all my might that all goes well and we can set sail really soon. Also wishing that their concept and their numbers (money needed to operate the ship) are good/accurate enough to make it work.
> I also feel that they are tight-lipped and not very forthcoming in giving out information. So if we can gather more fellow "Muranonites" to exchange news and views it'd really be great.


Welcome , I am a traveler.

I think many of us share your same vision and concern. What unit did you reserve ( whole or fractional )? The assigments have changed and you may want to contact the saels people for reconfirmation.


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## puffpuff

jesse james said:


> Greetings Cyber Luke and I Am A Traveler,
> I am also glad to see other buyers on this ship.
> As mentioned my Puff Puff, the floor plans have changed. Why? I will call
> Voyage Partners to inquire. I have reserved a Penthouse under my Insurance Corporation which reads 2 Queen bedrooms and a living area with a sofa sleeper. It also had a guest bathroom as you enter and a kitchenette with Refridgerator, sink and microwave. Now their diagram shows 1 queen bedroom and the 2nd bedroom that showed 2 beds, now shows 1 sofa sleeper and no
> Kitchenette or guest bedroom.
> I will let you know what I find out.
> My Penthouse is $200,000 for 8 weeks, but I have spoke to another buyer in maybe buying an inside suite(same size) for $750,000 52 weeks between
> 3 or 4 buyers. That would give us 13 weeks instead of 8 for less money
> $187,550 for 4 buyers. If interested please respond.


I beleive the kitchenette may have been removed due to fire code regulations, as rewriting etc  to accomodate such a facility may be cost prohibitive. Just by guess.


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## iamatraveler

Hello Puff Puff,
      Thanks.  We reserved a full double suite. I check their websites often and occasionally email their staff to get info. When I read your message that they have revamped the deck plan, I inquired about it and was told that they are changing the plan somewhat, but that I don't have to worry about it because they will assign me a similar suite as that I have reserved, and will let us know as soon as it is finalized. (Last time they did that we were given a good substitute.)
       Everybody, keep up the good work - keep questioning and digging for more pertinent info.
       Since I am not an investor, all I am concerned is that the cruise business generates enough profits to operate the ship and the ship is well run/maintained. To pay less than $10,000 a year for maintenance and food and perpetual traveling, that is good enough for me. (Even if the annual fee goes up a bit it is still relatively affordable - less than the costs of living on land based unit.)


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## Steamboat Bill

iamatraveler said:


> To pay less than $10,000 a year for maintenance and food and perpetual traveling, that is good enough for me. (Even if the annual fee goes up a bit it is still relatively affordable - less than the costs of living on land based unit.)




This seems too good to be true, especially considering the fuel and labor costs of a ship.

Your HOA fees WILL increase if the rental income streams do not cover all the operating expenses of the ship. 

Also, the ships are ten to fifteen years old and may require large maintenance fees.


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## Dave M

Steamboat Bill said:


> Also, the ships are ten to fifteen years old and may require large maintenance fees.


The actual age of these ships is likely much older, based on the evasive answer at the promoter's site to the question "How old is the ship?"  

Worse, the promoter projects that the remaining sailing life of the ship could be as short as 15 years! Imagine spending a million bucks for a cruise condo that might have a useful life of only 15 years! Although the promoter suggests that the condos could be used and/or rented in a permanent dock situation after that, the economic viability of doing so seems questionable.


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## Dave M

Dave M said:


> The actual age of these ships is likely much older....


Would you believe about 45 years old?

Although the promoter seems evasive as to how old the ship is, it appears that it was originally a ferry called the Taverner, built in 1962, for use in the Canadian ferry system in the Inside Passage. In about 1997, it was reconditioned and renamed the Pacific Aurora. It was purchased earlier this year for use as a timeshare ship by the same company (Marine Growth Ventures) whose President, Craig Hodgkins, is also the General Manager of Marine Operations for the promoter. At least one other individual, Timothy Levanseler, is an officer of both entities. 

It's apparent that the Pacific Aurora is the ship being refitted as this condo/timeshare cruise ship.

It's quite possible that the ship for this "opportunity" is other than indicated here. If so, why is the promoter so evasive on details (ship's history, photo, etc.) when asking people to invest amounts in excess of $400,000? Other companies offering similar opportunities usually take every opportunity to boast of the tiniest of details.


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## puffpuff

iamatraveler said:


> Hello Puff Puff,
> Thanks.  We reserved a full double suite. I check their websites often and occasionally email their staff to get info. When I read your message that they have revamped the deck plan, I inquired about it and was told that they are changing the plan somewhat, but that I don't have to worry about it because they will assign me a similar suite as that I have reserved, and will let us know as soon as it is finalized. (Last time they did that we were given a good substitute.)
> Everybody, keep up the good work - keep questioning and digging for more pertinent info.
> Since I am not an investor, all I am concerned is that the cruise business generates enough profits to operate the ship and the ship is well run/maintained. To pay less than $10,000 a year for maintenance and food and perpetual traveling, that is good enough for me. (Even if the annual fee goes up a bit it is still relatively affordable - less than the costs of living on land based unit.)


I have also reserved one full unit, but given the lack of information and the high risk nature of this venture as it currently stands, it may be wise to consider a share equity to reduce the risk, and save some dry powder for a second ship ( there are supoose to be five all said and done) . Since different ships will have different iternaries, it may actually end up more flexible if you have time spread out betwen two or more ships rather than gettting stuck with the iternary of one ship especially if there are last minute changes. Just a thought. weclome again and do contribute often. We need to learn from one another.


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## puffpuff

Dave M said:


> The actual age of these ships is likely much older, based on the evasive answer at the promoter's site to the question "How old is the ship?"
> 
> Worse, the promoter projects that the remaining sailing life of the ship could be as short as 15 years! Imagine spending a million bucks for a cruise condo that might have a useful life of only 15 years! Although the promoter suggests that the condos could be used and/or rented in a permanent dock situation after that, the economic viability of doing so seems questionable.


Based on the sale of 150 units at average 500,000 per unit, total revenue = 75,000,000. Assume 30% profit including marketing, it brings the cost of purchase and retrofit to about 50,000,000. What kind of boat can you get for this kind of money ??


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## puffpuff

[_Message deleted. Info regarding sales seminars and other promotional opportunities should not be posted on TUG._ Dave M, BBS Moderator]


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## Dave M

It sounds as though you have gotten a ton of misinformation. 

The deck plan shows 122 cabins (if I counted correctly), not 150. Also, if promoters have told you they expect selling costs and profit to be only 30% of sales on this project, I believe they are either joking, lying or incredibly naive. Timeshare owners who have been around this site for a while need no further explanation!   

The type of info being thrown around here by people who have supposedly already bought into or made a deposit for this project makes it clear to me that no one viewing this thread should spend money on this without doing a heck of a lot of due diligence to find out a lot more info than the promoters seem to readily make available and to resolve inconsistencies between what is available and the truth. 

Further, although this might not be a security offering, it appears that the legal requirements of many states (e.g., re detailed public offering statements) have not yet been met with respect to offering timeshare-type sales such as this. Thus, how the promoter expects to legally market this in the U.S. – especially in those states such as California and Florida, which have very restrictive registration laws - is beyond my comprehension.

I'll now bow out. I have spent too much time on this already.


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## Steamboat Bill

I found this on Voyage Partners FAQ section:

33.  How much will the suites rent for?
Suggested rental for our suites will be $3,000 to $10,000 per week, depending on what suite size you own.

As a comparison....I went on the Freedom of the Seas last summer when the ship was only 5 weeks old. This is the largest ship in the world, is brand new, and was one of the most expensive ships to build in the world. I booked a week long cruise in a suite for two people that included all meals for less than $4,000 during the prime summer season. 

Thus, it is my opinion that you are better off renting your week on a ship, rather than buying a condo/boat unless you are mega rich and can afford to buy into a BRAND NEW ship condo like The World


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## Dave M

I can't resist. More proof that this company doesn't seem to have its act together.... 

Compare the deck plans at the link Bill found with the deck plans for the same ship (Murano) at another link. It would seem that different sales agents have been given different deck plans to promote - for the same ship!

Now I really will move on.


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## jesse james

Greetings all,

Both web sites have different floor plans. It is currently speculation. I was also under the impression that they purchased a floating casino in Hong Kong that was going to be converted but at the April Expo they made it clear that they were looking at 2 different ships and that the purchase was not done.

If you plan to cruise only once a year, than it might be true that you are better off booking with a large cruise liner. Last August,  I had 2 rooms with Princess Cruise(1 inside and 1 small suite) and that ran me $14000 for my whole family. It was a 12 day Mediterranean Cruise. My personal plans are to travel 4 times(2weeks each time) a year. That alone will run me $56,000 a year. My $200,000 investment for the Penthouse pays for it self in 4 years with at least 12 to 20 years to go.
As many of you cruisers know, this 12 day cruise covered 10 ports and was very tiring getting up early to hit the ports and returning before 5pm to shower, eat dinner and hit the shows and casino. I needed another vacation when I arrived home just to relax.
The Murano will be at the port 2-3 days, so that you can enjoy the port. You have the flexibility of checking the nightlife and explore the city with out being rushed. Eat your meals at the exotic sites or in your ship.
My recommendation is that you don,t buy the whole year. either buy a fractional ownership or better yet get 2-3 investers and buy the full year together for less money and you get more weeks.
Limit your exposure and liability with a LLC. Don.t pay for it in full. Pay only 25% and let them carry 75% using your room for collateral.
Best case scenario, things work out great(no huge increase in Assoc fees) and then you buy into the 2nd cruise ship.
Worst case scenario, things go really bad after a few years Assoc skyrockets to all the owners, then you sell or walk out and let them keep the ship. You safeguard your personal liability because the LLC owns it and not you personally. 
I want to be optimistic and hope for the best scenario.


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## jesse james

Me again,  

In summary, don't sweat the small stuff(decks and floor plans) yet. Once we get the condominium cruise ship documents(prospectus) we all have 15 days to review with our attorneys. If everything is not there they promised, then we get our refund minus $200.


Jesse James


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## puffpuff

jesse james said:


> Greetings all,
> 
> Both web sites have different floor plans. It is currently speculation. I was also under the impression that they purchased a floating casino in Hong Kong that was going to be converted but at the April Expo they made it clear that they were looking at 2 different ships and that the purchase was not done.
> 
> If you plan to cruise only once a year, than it might be true that you are better off booking with a large cruise liner. Last August,  I had 2 rooms with Princess Cruise(1 inside and 1 small suite) and that ran me $14000 for my whole family. It was a 12 day Mediterranean Cruise. My personal plans are to travel 4 times(2weeks each time) a year. That alone will run me $56,000 a year. My $200,000 investment for the Penthouse pays for it self in 4 years with at least 12 to 20 years to go.
> As many of you cruisers know, this 12 day cruise covered 10 ports and was very tiring getting up early to hit the ports and returning before 5pm to shower, eat dinner and hit the shows and casino. I needed another vacation when I arrived home just to relax.
> The Murano will be at the port 2-3 days, so that you can enjoy the port. You have the flexibility of checking the nightlife and explore the city with out being rushed. Eat your meals at the exotic sites or in your ship.
> My recommendation is that you don,t buy the whole year. either buy a fractional ownership or better yet get 2-3 investers and buy the full year together for less money and you get more weeks.
> Limit your exposure and liability with a LLC. Don.t pay for it in full. Pay only 25% and let them carry 75% using your room for collateral.
> Best case scenario, things work out great(no huge increase in Assoc fees) and then you buy into the 2nd cruise ship.
> Worst case scenario, things go really bad after a few years Assoc skyrockets to all the owners, then you sell or walk out and let them keep the ship. You safeguard your personal liability because the LLC owns it and not you personally.
> I want to be optimistic and hope for the best scenario.


I agree with Jesse that a self-directed strategy allows for protection on the downside at this early juncture of this industry when there are many unknowns going forward and kinks to work out, so to say. . Financing with  the unit as sole collateral makes a lot of sense, provided that no personal guarantee is required.


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## iamatraveler

I am concerned about their "secrecy" too. In my analysis, for the price I have locked in (less than what it costs now) and the annual maintanence fee (assuming that they don't go up too much) it is the best I can find and afford that will enable me to travel the world for quite a few years (assuming that the ship stays in good condition).  Anyway, there is always risks involved. We have not signed any contracts yet. The reservation deposit is refundable and it is in good hands (we even got interests from the bank.) We will see how it unfolds. Hopefully, all goes well and we will be on our way on our beautiful ship.  If not, we can always cancel the deal (before signing the contract)
       I was sure that I identified the ship they are going to buy (the gambling ship from Hong Kong) but you said they have made it clear it would not be that ship.... Perhaps they have lost the opportunity on account of the long time it takes them to make the offer.  That would explain why they have to revamp the deck plan again. Don't understand why they have to keep this a big secret. It is frustrating and worrisome. But I hope for the best.
      They said that they are selling the second ship already. Maybe they switched the gambling ship to be the second ship?
       They said they have hired a branding company to establish the proper image and are looking for a tour operator to handle the booking. Why would they go through so much trouble to risk getting nothing from us? We don't sign contract unless they give us the full detail and disclosure. We have the opportunity to conduct a "walk through" before buying.
      I fully understand the risks involved after buying the suite - it could become very expensive to maintain, or disaster might strike the ship. That is the unknown that we have to brave no matter what we do. We do the best analysis and educated guess and take a leap of faith. 
       I understand that what they are selling is NOT real estate - it is more like selling cars or expensive personal properties. So there is no special registration requirement similar to those for real estate. Anybody can sell and buy personal properties. The buyers will have to do his/her own due diligence.


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## MusicMan

I don't think I've ever seen so much obvious shilling in my life!


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## PerryM

*What's that smell?*

*Is this boat being built in Nigeria? * This is obviously a scam and anyone wanting to blow money on such a flaky deal should consider just going to Vegas and stay there until the money runs out.

I’ve been involved with a floating timeshare and the folks who start up these ventures are descendents of Blackbeard.  

Stay away from such an obvious scam; good grief this smells like dead fish.

P.S.
Just take a minute and read the junk in your junk mail folder - it sounds just the same as this thing - this is all a scam and from the same folks in Nigeria.  I get hundreds of these things each day.  Just because it shows up here in a chat room doesn't mean it can't be 100% scam from the get-go.

In fact, I'll go further and declare this entire venture a chat-room scam.


----------



## Dave M

I don't think it's intended as a scam, Perry. However, I think the eventual result for those who put money into this deal will be the same as if it were a Nigerian scam.

There have been a number of publicly available documents filed with the SEC related to the ship purchase, lending agreements with a major lender and other aspects of this deal. That's tangible. Still, the overall publicity, documentation and posting by those promoting the project in this thread is so misleading and inaccurate that the promoters should engage a shrink and a decent PR firm to determine how to right the ship (so to speak). 

At the rate this project is going, it's destined to fail. If anything, the type of posts by those promoting the project in this thread will quickly turn off those who might otherwise take a risk on this apparently doomed project.


----------



## cyberluke

Hi all, thanks for your comments, they are very much appreciated. I especially appreciate the "touch of reality" we're experiencing here... but what I think would really benefit all members here (especially those who placed a deposit and are considering -and quite excited about- going forward with this), is to have the opinions of people with experience or knowledge in the Cruise industry, or share the research that we encounter.

Dave M, you mentioned you are a CPA and that you have worked and seen the inside numbers of the cruise industry? Could you give us a bit more help on this? (as to the costs of running the ship, how off you think they are in their projections -for the Murano-, etc.)?

Any help will be greatly appreciated and, like puff puff said, you will of course not be held accountable  We're just all looking for the most truthful information we can find...

Thanks


----------



## PerryM

*I love this show...*

There’s a new TV show called  “The Riches” – I love this show.

It’s all about a band of gypsies/Travelers who take over the identity of a family that they helped kill by accident.  I just love how “Doug”, a Traveler, so easily fits into the lawyer role.  This is now my favorite TV show.

Anyway, the probably of 4 new TUG members, all promoting this project, has got to be astronomical.  This has me thinking of that TV show  – this is great theatre right here on TUG!  Has the Riches branched out into Fractional Cruise Ships?  Tune in daily for more high seas adventures.


----------



## Dave M

cyberluke, puffpuff, iamatraveler and jesse james -

Okay. I'll no longer promise to stay out of this thread.

You have already received more information than it would take to convince a reasonable person to run fast in the opposite direction from this deal. To be presented with all of the evidence of inconsistencies, misleading information and poor promoter planning and still be interested in staying with this deal, as several of you are, is what convinces us that you are probably shills for the promoter. 

This is a timeshare consumer advice site that spends a lot of effort in connection with scams (as Perry suggests this might be) and deals that are much less attractive (as I am suggesting) to potential purchasers than the picture the promoters or shills try to present.

Thus, if you are truly purchasers rather than connected to the promoter, you should exit this deal in a hurry and not look back. You need no more information. There are other legitimate cruise condo deals that are much more attractive than this risky venture, at least based on the info you have posted here and the info that we have independently learned. 

If, however, you are connected to the promoter, you would be wise to stop posting here, leave TUG, and find some other site to seek gullible people. This site is well linked to search engines such as Google. (Try using *murano* and [/b]fractional[/b] as Google search terms and note what comes up as the #1 hit.) 

Assuming you are connected to the promoter, is this thread the type of adverse publicity you want potential investors to find a year from now through Google when your project really gets going? The more you post here, the easier it will be for others to find this discussion. I can assure you that the more you post here, the worse (from your standpoint) this thread will get. And if the project is legitimate, you might never recover from shoddy marketing such as you have tried here.

Our experience is that any project that has to rely on shills rather than a legitimate marketing campaign is seriously underfunded, misguided and lacking in the professional (and, yes, expensive) advice necessary for long-term success. Thus, whether you are a purchaser or the promoter, you are in a no-win, must-lose situation by pursuing this further on this site.


----------



## cyberluke

For the record, I'm not a promoter. Anyway, thank you for your advice.


----------



## jesse james

For the record AGAIN I am not a promoter. 
We four investors that you have mentioned have been to presentations and have asked questions to the Company who in return do not have all the answers since the ship has not been purchased. We enjoy getting input from other Murano investors unlike PERRY M who comes off with these Nigeria and "The Riches" off the wall scenarios to scare people.(But this has nothing to do with him anyways) I am sure he has not researched any web sites or attended any sales presentations. 
As for myself, this is exciting.  It is not your typical timeshare or Real estate transaction.(which I have done many)
With this web site, I was able to connect with other Murano Investors and I will be meeting with one of them personally to compare notes, strategies and hopefully combine our penthouse with a LLC to limit our exposure, yet get more weeks for less money.:whoopie: 
Bye for now and please feel free to input any constructive or positive input versus off the wall conspiracies:ignore:  and negative unproductive chatter.


----------



## jesse james

Most of the adverse chatter seems to becoming from non-investors.
As for myself, I have enjoyed talking to PuffPuff, Cyberluke and Iamatraveler.
There is nothing wrong expressing our concerns. We are are entering un chartered waters. literally. "The World" is the only fractional ownership out there and they are still working out the kinks after 4 years.


----------



## Dave M

This is becoming more unbelievable with every post.



jesse james said:


> ...the ship has not been purchased.


That's inconsistent with puffpuff's contention (in the first post in this thread) that "The first ship is almost sold out after 9 months of reservation activity, and is schedule to set sail in the fall 2007." How do you almost sell out something for which there is no ship and no registered public offering document allowing you to sell? How do you sail "in the fall 2007" a ship that hasn't yet been acquired and hasn't entered into the extensive retrofitting process that is likely to take many, many months?

That's also inconsistent with a document filed with the SEC in which corporate officers Levansaler and Hodgkins state that, "MGC, a wholly owned subsidiary of MGV, has acquired the First Vessel - the Pacific Aurora." and "MGC has acquired full title to the First Vessel in the name of Pacific Aurora." If that's not accurate, they could be in a heap of legal trouble.

Keep on posting. This is fun....


----------



## puffpuff

Dave M said:


> This is becoming more unbelievable with every post.
> 
> That's inconsistent with puffpuff's contention (in the first post in this thread) that "The first ship is almost sold out after 9 months of reservation activity, and is schedule to set sail in the fall 2007." How do you almost sell out something for which there is no ship and no registered public offering document allowing you to sell? How do you sail "in the fall 2007" a ship that hasn't yet been acquired and hasn't entered into the extensive retrofitting process that is likely to take many, many months?
> 
> That's also inconsistent with a document filed with the SEC in which corporate officers Levansaler and Hodgkins state that, "MGC, a wholly owned subsidiary of MGV, has acquired the First Vessel - the Pacific Aurora." and "MGC has acquired full title to the First Vessel in the name of Pacific Aurora." If that's not accurate, they could be in a heap of legal trouble.
> 
> Keep on posting. This is fun....


I started this thread with the honest and sincere goal of trying to understand this project more with fellow investors. For the record, I am not related to the Promoter.

I think that Dave's concern comes from kind heart and should be appreciated. Given the amount of misinformation or lack of information surrounding this project, any reasonsble person will have multiple red flags. Yes, it does sound too good to be true, with a Nigerian flavor . 

The project may sound like a scam at this point, and may well be proven so in time to come. The warning by various more experienced poster in the timeshare industry should not be disregared and should be taken at heart. Only people who care will take the time and energy to warn . 

For those of us who have made a committment so far, what really will be helpful is some financial projections from someone more knowedlgable about the industry and this ship. 

Let us keep the post going with emphasis on objective facts and data if possible.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

PerryM said:


> *Is this boat being built in Nigeria? * This is obviously a scam and anyone wanting to blow money on such a flaky deal should consider just going to Vegas and stay there until the money runs out.
> 
> I’ve been involved with a floating timeshare and the folks who start up these ventures are descendents of Blackbeard.
> 
> Stay away from such an obvious scam; good grief this smells like dead fish.
> 
> P.S.
> Just take a minute and read the junk in your junk mail folder - it sounds just the same as this thing - this is all a scam and from the same folks in Nigeria.  I get hundreds of these things each day.  Just because it shows up here in a chat room doesn't mean it can't be 100% scam from the get-go.
> 
> In fact, I'll go further and declare this entire venture a chat-room scam.



Finally....PerryM has arrived!...I was waiting for this as he has ALREADY been involved in a timeshare on a ship purchase. There have been other TUGers that have posted similar projects.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31244&highlight=timeshare+ship

PerryM has 10000x raised to the power of 10 times MORE credibility than the other new posters combined when it comes to rendering an opinion on this topic. I have watched this thread since the first post and it is now finally getting interesting.

For the record: I own several timeshares, am a member of a destination club, considered joining a driving club (Collexium), own condo hotels, used to own a boat, etc. I have decided that the entire concept of a floating timeshare or floating condo is a bad idea unless you buy into something reasonable like a 100 foot private yacht with 10 other "rich friends" or can afford to buy into an established and reputable condo-ship like The World.

I would NEVER consider "PRE-CONSTRUCTION" investing (or advise anyone) in a condo boat like the Murano. Now if the Murano ever gets built (or should I say refurbished) then it may become attractive for some people as a cheaper version of The World. But that is a BIG IF.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of the Murano...I simply think the concept being floated here (no pun intended) is very DANGEROUS for anyone that can't afford to loose 100% of their investement down the drain (pun intended) should avoid this deal.

Secondly, for $200,000, you can make a safe $10,000 per year off a 5% CD and then take a nice week or two on just about any ship and at any time. In fact, if you use the inflated rental prices from the Murano...you can simply rent the suite from them or from some owner.

Almost every boat or ship I have ever seen (and I live in the boating capital of the world) depreciates very quickly and all require large maintenance and fuel and labor expenses. If you simply rent weeks from the Murano and buy a resale when one pops up...you have won the game!

Can anyone convince me that the risk of buying Murano is better than the safety of renting and buying resale after the ship sets sail?


----------



## travelguy

I have to agree with PerryM, Steamboat and DaveM on this one.  Something stinks!

P.S. The "Riches" IS a great show!  Eddie Izzard is a comedic genius.


----------



## jesse james

Greetings everyone 
Spoke to Condo Cruise Lines inc today, and they confirmed that they have not bought a ship yet. They have 2 ships under contract now and they are inspecting a third. The 2nd ship is larger and that is probably why more rooms were added. The reason they have not closed on any of the ships is because then they would have to come up with all the money(millions of dolllars). They said that tell are close to that decision. 
I asked about the operating costs and if the guest suites would cover that amount or would the owners be assessed if short. She said that she did not have the numbers but all the operating budget and projections will be given to us once they close escrow on one of the three ships. She said it would be similiar to a homeowners association packet and that we would have 15 days to review.
I hope this helps everyone a little. I encourage everyone to call them with their own concerns and report back.


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## PerryM

*Iceberg dead ahead captain...*



jesse james said:


> <snip>
> Spoke to Condo Cruise Lines inc today, and they confirmed that they have not bought a ship yet. They have 2 ships under contract now and they are inspecting a third. The 2nd ship is larger and that is probably why more rooms were added. *The reason they have not closed on any of the ships is because then they would have to come up with all the money(millions of dolllars). *
> <snip>



What the heck are we talking about here?  Hell I want to own a floor of timeshares in Maui - I just have to come up with the $10's of millions too.  Should I be selling the weeks now?  Should I be plugging them on TUG now?

Why on earth get excited about something that is still being “Cooked up” as we speak.  I read the SEC document and deadlines discussed have already been missed.

If this should somehow pan out, then we can expect great looking brochures within the year – wait until then.  Heck, wait a few years and let others be the first to walk the plank.

This is just the dream of a bunch of wide-eyed sales folks who dream of the treasure of big bucks – and what consumer protection is afforded those who want to “Jump the Shark”  - none.  

This is NOT real estate – it’s a pirate ship.  Don’t get caught with your hook in a sinking ship.


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## Steamboat Bill

PerryM said:


> This is NOT real estate – it’s a pirate ship.  Don’t get caught with your hook in a sinking ship.



This is such a great line....I wanted everyone to read it again!


----------



## puffpuff

jesse james said:


> Greetings everyone
> Spoke to Condo Cruise Lines inc today, and they confirmed that they have not bought a ship yet. They have 2 ships under contract now and they are inspecting a third. The 2nd ship is larger and that is probably why more rooms were added. The reason they have not closed on any of the ships is because then they would have to come up with all the money(millions of dolllars). They said that tell are close to that decision.
> I asked about the operating costs and if the guest suites would cover that amount or would the owners be assessed if short. She said that she did not have the numbers but all the operating budget and projections will be given to us once they close escrow on one of the three ships. She said it would be similiar to a homeowners association packet and that we would have 15 days to review.
> I hope this helps everyone a little. I encourage everyone to call them with their own concerns and report back.


Does sound very shaky if you ask me. This is worse than pre-construction, where the developer has committe to land and its a matter of building. 

In this case, they are basically selling a concept plan. But I presume they have no choice, and it points to weak financing and the desperate need to get people signed up so they can convince the financers to front the money. to buy the ship and move it forward. I wish them success, but the odds look increasing low.   

I  suspect that if they can pull it off, others with better peputation and financing will jump in rather quickly. 

Those who are first in the frontier ( like the wild west) usually have an arrow behind their back. I hate to be negative when the concept sounds so good, but Perry's advice deserve serious consideration.


----------



## MULTIZ321

See this link for more information about Sophlex Ship Management,Inc

Dave, I'm not sure when the SEC document was filed - (I didn't see any dates listed) - but I find it interesting that the address listed for Sophlex Ship Management in the SEC document is different from what's listed in the Florida Corporation filing document. However, the principals are the same.


Richard


----------



## iamatraveler

Yes, there is big confusion, including our brilliant moderator, Dave M.
I think you are confused by the 2 different projects by 2 different companies because they have a couple people on both projects:-
The MGV (and Sophlex etc. ) and their Pacific Aurora is an entirely different project than the one by Condo cruise lines. MGV started the "timeshare" project way before CCL started the full ownership condo suites project. CCL only started the "shared ownership" on the Murano in December 2006. CCL has hired ISP to be the ship's manager, no longer Sophlex. Murano is originally the gambling ship from Hong Kong (unless they have decided to use a different ship they have found so far - it could even be Pacific Aurora put into different use because the other timeshare didn't work out.......I know I am only guessing and risk causing more confusion and be ridiculed again....)
Yes, there is big questions and confusion and we, the potential Murano owners, did not intentionally contribute to the confusion. CCL's unwillingness to give information and we the honest people who try hard to gather info., and the big skeptics on this board who divulge info before looking into it in depth, all cause this massive confusion.

Jesse James. Puffpuff, Cyberluke, keep up the good work. We will remain civil and  true to our mission (to gather info and exchange ideas/views), hopefully, we won't  be wrongfully accused and ridiculed so much in the future.


----------



## PerryM

*Confucius says “Confucius confused”*

Confucious (551 BC – 479 BC):

*What the superior man seeks is in himself; what the small man seeks is in others. *

Here’s another:
*Fine words and an insinuating appearance are seldom associated with true virtue. *

And the best of all:
*Study the past if you would define the future.*


So I’d like those here who promote this project(s) to supply a list of links where more information on this confusing project(s) can be found.  Links to corporate web sites, governmental links (like to a business license), newspaper articles, etc.  Anything that would move this project from rumors to facts.

I’d ask the VP of marketing to join TUG and answer some questions and explain what exactly they own this second and what is being sold – NOW, not next week.  It takes just a few seconds to join TUG and a little guts.

Blaming skeptics who just demand verifiable facts is just a fog bank that hides a sea of mines.  There are many real estate laws affording some protection to land owners with deeds – there are NO consumer protection laws that protect an “investor” in this situation.

Due diligence is the hallmark of a savvy investor – so how about some due diligence here – I see NONE!

Don’t ask the rest of us to go down with your Titanic.  12 miles from US soil that ship enters the domain of international maritime laws and courts - how about a primmer on these laws which will govern this project?  Just like the title to a parcel of land can be clouded by past owners so can that happen to that ship - what past debts could turn the ship into a ghost ship tangled in a storm of lawsuits in international courts?

How about US Coast Guard rules and regulations - inspections and other things that must be passed initially and every 6 - 12 months.  What happens if the US Coast Guard declares the ship a fire hazard and denies entry into US ports - who pays for that - the US Coast Guard is fanatical in fire regulations and they tighten them up each year.

Misery does NOT need company; at least mine.

P.S.
Maintenance on this ship will NOT take place in a US port – it will take place in Trinidad or some other far away port.  A creditor doesn’t get paid and sues in the International Maritime Court system and slaps a judgment on the ship which is now held prisoner in a third world port – what do the “Investors” do?

It’s one thing for a cruise ship company to worry about getting a ship back in service, what about one where the “owners” are scattered all over the world?  What do the “Investors” do?  There is no HOA to hold accountable.

This is just one of many things I learned on my other ship adventure; there are dozens and dozens of scenarios that will scare the living blarney out of you once you submerge below the  tranquil seas that the salesreps hawk.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

PerryM said:


> Don’t ask the rest of us to go down with your Titanic.



Another classic PerryM quote.....I think it is getting time to archive them into a handbook for newbies!


----------



## iamatraveler

*perry m get the facts right!*

Talk about misinformation! Pacific Aurora was purchased by Marine Growth Venture in March 29, 2007 from British Columbia Discovery Voyage Inc. It is not Murano and has nothing to do with Condo Cruise Lines’s project (other than the founder is an executive team member in CCL’s project too). I know about MGV and its founder but has not paid attention to what they have done lately other than they have some kind of cruise time share planned. Because of your misinformation I dug a little and found out the fact.  By the way, you are reading the wrong "SEC" filing - that is MGV's, not Condo Cruise Lines'.

I don’t have wise sayings to quote, but I’d get the facts straight before I throw them out to lecture, sneer at and scare people. What are your intentions anyway? To save people from a sinking ship?  Or are you just mad that the ship will set sail without you? You think you are the only one smart and experienced enough to think of all the possible scenarios? That is just it – scenarios that might or might not happen.  The few minor inconsistencies, the tendency to exaggerate the earning potential, the slower than intended progress do not make a scam. Just like you folks who are the saviours of the world have made terrible albeit honest mistakes in snatching up the wrong information to lecture us with. The buyers will not take them at face value. They will do their own analysis and proceed accordingly. Go ahead and accuse me of being one of the sales promoters because I seem to be defending them. He who keeps an open mind tends to be ridiculed.

I did my research some time ago and I am not going to go through all the troubles to get you the links. Do it yourself.

How is this for a classic for Perry M. - he is barking up the wrong tree - go bark at MGV instead!  (Actually you can bark at CCL, just don't bark at me.)

I can think of a wise saying after all – 
    He who knows that he knows little is the true wise man, beware of those who claim that they know a lot.

Sorry, PuffPuff, Jesse James, Cyberluke, I don't mean to start any wars with anybody. I can't help responding to such chronic accusers, self-proclaimed wise guys and just plain cynical people. I, too, don't know if the figures they gave are good. As an investor it is advisable to do a more in depth analysis. I am going to be a full time tenant/owner. I figure that it is doable and suits my own personal situation and plans. I can only learn from you fellow buyers and hope for the best. The only thing I stand to lose is my dream of traveling the world.


----------



## Dave M

I found that information and reported it because the officers of Condo Cruise Line were behind the Pacific Aurora purchase. Their names are all over the documentation.

So if that has nothing to do with this effort, that would appear to mean that either those company officers have a significant conflict of interest or that Condo Cruise Lines is so seriously under funded that it can't afford its own talent - or both. 

Still, no matter how one looks at this, hyping something that doesn't even exist yet and hyping a deck plan (as the web site does) for a ship that hasn't even been purchased yet seems like the height of folly.

And agreeing to buy something or stating that "I am going to be a full time tenant/owner" (as you just did) for a project that is as far from reality as this is and has so many unanswered questions as this is seems to be....

I won't finish that last sentence because I don't want to violate the BBS posting rules.


----------



## PerryM

*"Just the facts"*



iamatraveler said:


> <snip>
> *I did my research some time ago and I am not going to go through all the troubles to get you the links. Do it yourself.*
> <snip>



This whole “adventure” reminds me of the  eBay’s “Second Chance” scam (Not that eBay is the scammer but the folks who hijack the Second Chance are).  Link: http://www.safefromscams.co.uk/EbaySecondChanceScam.html  i.e. perhaps the underlying concept is legitimate but it has been hijacked for nefarious purposes.

Joe Friday said it best “*Just the facts Ma’am*”. 

iamaTraveler (Love that name) I’m asking for a list of links – you have supplied none.  If you think I can’t spot a scam then just prove me wrong by supplying links to web sites where you can excoriate me with verifiable facts.

Until then, each new post here merely causes TUG to rise higher in the search engine results.  The search engines like Google, Ask, Yahoo, and hundreds of others all work on two principles:

1)	The frequency of usage of a search word like “Murano” 
2)	The frequency of links back to the source.

For instance, if Murano were to be associated with:

*Bunko, scheme, trick, rip-off, con, confidence game, lie, cheat, deceive, white lie, scam, nefarious, sting, fraud, swindle, bamboozle, lie * ,etc 

And then linked back like this:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=330821&posted=1#post330821

Why this just results in the spiders getting more excited and rising the reference to an article.  

I await the links; but I don’t mind feeding the spiders in the meantime.


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## MULTIZ321

Here's a July 2006 link from the San Francisco Chronicle about Condo Cruise Lines International


Richard

PS - after posting the San Francisco Chronicle link, I discovered from
the LuxuryCondoCruiseLine Web site that the article contained an error re a $20,000 monthly fee  - it should have said 9k-20k per year. See here for confirmation


----------



## PerryM

*30 minutes and....*

Ok, I decided to take 30 minutes and track down some links on Murano – the OP’s starting post.  When you Google “Murano Cruise Ship” this TUG thread is #1 – hopefully it will remain #1 for decades to come.

Here are some links that I found:

http://www.magellancruisecondos.com/ a 1 page web site designed to get your eMail address – no thanks.  They link to The Murano” at: http://www.luxurycondocruiseline.com/  they too want your eMail address but do have more info.

The title of the web site is “Condo Cruise Lines International” but the internet address is Luxury Condo Cruise Line –  but the home page says the company is “Condo Cruise Lines”.  The copyright is “Luxury Condo Cruise Lines”.

I’m confused, which company should we be looking at:

1.	Condo Cruise Lines International
2.	Magellan Cruise Condos
3.	Condo Cruise Lines
4.	Luxury Condo Cruise Line

Well flip a coin and proceed.

Under “About Us” there are 10 managers listed.  Mark Boyd is the president.  Google Mark Boyd Ship and you get this link: 
http://thinkexist.com/quotation/all-in-all-i-think-we-have-developed-a-whole-new/845573.html 

      “With nearly 80 million baby boomers starting to retire this year, and a large number of them wanting to live where it's warm, someone needed to come up with a solution, so I thought of assembling a group of investors to purchase a cruise ship and convert the cabins to condominiums.”

I’m guessing this is the correct mark Boyd, here is the complete article:
http://www.lexdon.com/article/Condo_Cruise_Ships_..._The/28189.html
The article was dated Jan 13, 2006, not much more than a year ago – sounds like a concept for a new company to me.

This one article spawned a host of news articles which are just Mark’s own words – regurgitated. 

Mark seems to be involved with http://www.condocruiselines.com/

If you do a BBB search you get: http://www.nwfl.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=90011407  The company IS NOT a member of BBB!  That should be a double red flag warning right there.

This company was founded in *Oct of 2005 *and is listed as a *travel agency*.

All in all I find a very immature company founded about one year ago.

I spent my 30 minutes and my conclusion is that anyone wanting to “Invest” in this company must have a daredevil attitude towards life - good luck and don't say you weren't warned.

You know they might have more luck with hot air balloons - just a suggestion.

P.S.
Here is a link to the Murano's First Year Itinerary - it starts June 2007.  http://www.condocruiselines.com/itinerary.php  I'm confused as to whether the ship even exists as of today?  (I love the TUG boat sound)



jesse james said:


> <snip>
> Spoke to Condo Cruise Lines inc today, and they confirmed that they have not bought a ship yet.
> <snip>



*Can we get real here - there is NO Murano ship - there are NO owners - there is ONLY a scam going on here.*


----------



## iamatraveler

*thanks for the second chance*

I usually check my email in the morning, so I quickly check this board to see what kind of brilliant accusation Perry M has come up with. Lo and behold - he admits that the Murano might not be a scam but I am!
Thank you Perry for thinking so highly of me - that I am brilliant enough to be a second chance con artist  (actually this the first time I hear of second chance.)
Now you are really doing some research and uncover some facts, but you just can't stop accusing people, can you? 
Why you insist that people are either stupid or are liars is beyond my comprehension. 
Thanks for destroying this opportunity for plain folks like us to conduct some meaningful discussion. 
Life is too short to waste on cynical people. 
Now you are going to gloat that I have been caught and I am running for the hills......  it just goes on and on.....
You have made honest folks such as Puff Puff. Jesse James and Cyberluke stop posting. Are you happy now?
If I were you, I would find something else more productive to do.
I better stop before every buddy of yours come on board to throw more accusation my way.


----------



## PerryM

*Warning Buoy*



iamatraveler said:


> I usually check my email in the morning, so I quickly check this board to see what kind of brilliant accusation Perry M has come up with. Lo and behold - he admits that the Murano might not be a scam but I am!
> Thank you Perry for thinking so highly of me - that I am brilliant enough to be a second chance con artist  (actually this the first time I hear of second chance.)
> Now you are really doing some research and uncover some facts, but you just can't stop accusing people, can you?
> Why you insist that people are either stupid or are liars is beyond my comprehension.
> Thanks for destroying this opportunity for plain folks like us to conduct some meaningful discussion.
> Life is too short to waste on cynical people.
> Now you are going to gloat that I have been caught and I am running for the hills......  it just goes on and on.....
> You have made honest folks such as Puff Puff. Jesse James and Cyberluke stop posting. Are you happy now?
> If I were you, I would find something else more productive to do.
> I better stop before every buddy of yours come on board to throw more accusation my way.




iamaTraveler, all I’ve ever wanted are links to verify the details of the project that 4 brand new members to this chat room have hyped (it was way too much hype to start with – just a suggestion) – it sounded too good to be true and, guess what, it is/was.  (Also space out the "Interested persons", 4 all at once just raises too many flags)

There are thousands of us here who have faced salesreps who lie to us, deceive us, misinform us, and we have learned from these professionals many valuable lessons.  A healthy dose of cynicism is good for you.

There’s a sucker born every minute is something many of us have vowed not to ever let happen again.  Thanks to the Internet one voice can be multiplied tens of thousands of times now.

*This thread is a warning buoy to folks involved with the Murano Cruise Ship – there are treacherous waters here filled with sharks.*


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## travelguy

*Don't kill the messenger!*



iamatraveler said:


> I better stop before every buddy of yours come on board to throw more accusation my way.



I've had disagreements of opinion with PerryM on this board and most would probably not consider me his "buddy" ... BUT, let me be the first to have his back on his statements about the Murano.  Perry has done great investigative work and drawn some logical conclusions as to the risk assessment of this "investment".  

Tuggers have a tradition of protecting other Tuggers from ill advised investments.  It appears the tradition is alive and well thanks to Perry, Dave, Bill and others!


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## Steamboat Bill

PerryM said:


> *This thread is a warning buoy to folks involved with the Murano Cruise Ship – there are treacherous waters here filled with sharks.*



To all the Murano newbie posters....This is NOT the first and only thread that PerryM has questioned. 

Perry has been vocal about the dangers in joining a destination club and there have been many "healthy debates" about that topic on TUG. I, for one, decided to go against PerryM warnings and joined HCC (along with about a dozen other TUGers). So far so good as we are all happy with our decisions, but if HCC crashes and burns....we all can't blame Perry as he posted many warning signs.

Murano, on the other hand, is a HIGH RISK VENTURE. 

I am usually an early adopter when it comes to investing in IPOs, Pre-construction homes, condos, and travel opportunities....but I give the current Murano plans a huge THUMBS DOWN.

TUGers, like myself, are grateful for people like PerryM that tries to see the Wizard hiding behind the closed veil. 

If you decide to buy into Murano...there is a small chance that you will hit a home run (assuming everything goes as planned). I personally, would reccomend going for base hits and wait until Murano materializes and rent one week to check it out. If they produce a successful venture, they will have people beating their doors down to buy. Sure, you will miss out on the "never to be seen low introductory prices" but your money will be safer.

One other suggestion....most TUGers are tired of seeing the "Dancing Banana"


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## PerryM

*Painful lessons*

Many of us here use eBay and have a pretty good idea how a shill acts.

I invest in rare coins – Morgan Silver Dollars.  20 years ago I went to a local coin auction here is St. Louis.  It was advertised in the large St. Louis papers and we went to “get some bargains”.  When we entered the auction, held at a local hotel, we had to show our drivers license and there was an auction official from the Missouri Department of Consumerism.

The auctioneer announced the presence of the Auditor and that NO shilling would be allowed.  Well the auction started and a guy down in the first row seemed to bid on every coin – he had a cowboy hat on and made all kinds of ruckus.  I noticed that the auctioneer (Who specialized in rare coin auctions) was handling the 100 year old rare coins with his fingers but the excitement of the moment caused me to ignore that.

We won 5 coins and everyone, in the audience, kind of suspected that the cowboy was a shill – he was loud, whipped up the action, but never won anything.  I spotted my first shill!  Many fellow bidders agreed with me.

The rules of the auction required that all coins would be turned over for cash – no checks.  We did not have the $1,000 or so but they said no problem.  The next day the auctioneer would drop by our house with the coins and get the cash.  We did that the next day and were the proud owners of 5 Morgan Silver Dollars.

Years later we realized that we paid 5 times what they were worth.  I found that out by bringing them to a coin dealer and told him of the story.  He smiled and asked me if there was a loud shill in the front row – I said yes, I spotted him.

He smiled widened and then asked me about the “Official” from Missouri – did I spot that shill too?  How about the auctioneer and, in fact, the entire auction – did I realize it was 100% a con game?  I turned red and realized that I had been conned by spotting the shill that was supposed to be found and didn’t spot the rest.

I try to learn from my mistakes and thanks to the internet I can share my painful lessons so others need not go thru the same learning curve – it’s painful.

P.S.
I asked the coin dealer why he didn't warn folks about the auction con games - he replied that all the coin dealers knew that these were con games and thus offered no opportunity for profit, so they stayed away.  I silently told myself "Thanks a lot"; but later learned that the local coin dealers weren't much better than the auction guys.

Hopefully folks here will, as TravelGuy said, watch each other's back.


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## MULTIZ321

Perry,

Here's a link from  NewCondoInvestor.com that ranks 5 new Cruise Ship Condo's
that are at various stages of development

Here's another link to a South Florida Sun Sentinel article on Used Cruise Ships
Resurface as Condos

Voyage Partners is the Marketing Arm handling the shared ownership program for
Condo Cruise Lines International.  Here is the link to Condo Cruise Lines International Florida Corporation Filing  . Note that Sophlex Ship Management, Inc. is one of the Managing Members.  Sophlex was purchased by Marine Growth Ventures (MGV) in 2004.  A wholly-owned subsidiary of MGV - Marine Growth Canada, LTD (MGC) - purchased the Pacific Aurora (formerly Tavener ferry) in March 2007 with the intent to convert it to cruise timeshares.  

MGV filed SEC Form 10-KSB on March 22, 2007.  This SEC report details the MGV condo timeshare business plan and company history. It makes for alarming reading.

Some selected quotes from the SEC report - "We have a history of operating losses and accumulated deficit. There is No certainty that we will ever achieve profitability."

"We have incurred operating losses of $1,323,567 since inception."

"We expect to incur significant increases in operating losses over the next several years primarily due to the expansion of our operations into the cruise timeshare Industry."

"There can be no assurance that we will ever achieve any revenues or profitable operations from the sale of our timeshare products."

"Additional Financing will be necessary of the Implementation of our Timeshare operations."

"We currently do not have operations with which to finance the development of our cruise timeshare operation."

"As of December 31, 2006 we have not made any timeshare sales."

"We currently do not have sufficient cash reserves to meet all of our anticipated obligations for the next 12 months and there can be no assurance that we will ultimately close on the necessary financing."

"On March 2, 2007 MGV applied for a credit line of $4,100,000 from Greystone Business Credit II, LLC for the purchase of Marine Vessels." Term 3 years.

MGV's independent Public Accounting Firm (Weinberg & Company, PA) issued a going concern paragraph in their consolidated financial statement for the year ended December 31, 2006 that states there is a substantial doubt about MGV's ability to continue as a going concern.

On May 3rd, 2007 MGV terminated the services of Weinberg & Company, PA.
Here's the link for verification

Several Tugger's have already got it right - this project is whoefully underfunded.

Richard


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## Steamboat Bill

MULTIZ321 said:


> Several Tugger's have already got it right - this project is whoefully underfunded.



Somehow....this is what I was thinking ever since I read the original post...but your post has me convinced that reality is MUCH worse than I originally anticipated.


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## PerryM

*Wanted: fat, dumb, and happy marks*

Richard, great investigative work – is there any doubt why, when asked, no links were supplied by the folks who plug this scheme.

*“The ONLY reason the timeshare industry exists is because ignorant consumers make foolish decisions”.  *I said that.

I know this ruffles the feathers; but the truth is the truth.  I’ve been asked to repackage that statement but it loses it’s “Punch”.  It means that the timeshare developers can’t afford to have knowledgeable consumers and that their product does NOT sell itself – the developers must ambush folks on vacation and bribe the consumer to the sales gallery with prizes worth an average of $500 (total marketing costs) quadruple the price, and pay slick salesreps, many who make $200k per year with little difficulty.  (I'm speaking in a generality here; this is NOT universal)

*This Murano project is no different – they can’t afford to have knowledgeable consumers asking logical questions;* due diligence is a verboten topic.  This obvious attempt, by the developer, to send shills here was a tactical error on a magnitude indicative of a failing project.

I like the idea of a floating timeshare – already bought one but it turns out to be an order of magnitude harder to build and deliver than a normal, terrestrial based timeshare.

So a word to the wise for all timeshare developers – there are no dolts here in this chat room.  We are NOT easily bamboozled with fast talking salesreps with fast and loose facts and figures.  You will have to do what all the other timeshare developers seem to do:

1)	Ambush Ma and Pa on vacation
2)	Need to bribe Ma and Pa with $500 gifts (net cost)
3)	6 out of 7 sales attempts fail
4)	Take the real estate cost and multiply it by 4 to equal the sales cost - then sell it as real estate
5)	73% of the sales must be financed – your product is so full of fat (doubles the cost)
6) Pay $200k+ to salesreps who can sell Blarney on a massive scale
7) Lie, cheat, deceive, and misinform in order to make the 1 in 7 sale
8) Make sure Ma and Pa are forced into bypassing due diligence since many/most sales would be rescinded

Obviously cutting corners with shills just isn’t going to work here – better to make an infomercial and run it at 3 AM on cable TV.

I follow chat rooms dedicated to the professional timeshare salesrep and they are scared to death of marks////consumers who have cell phones, laptop computers, internet savvy and especially the new cell phones that combine the 3 into one.  Imagine Ma and Pa whipping out their cell phone and Googling “Murano Cruise Ship” and seeing this as the #1 link!

P.S.
The resale timeshare market is Internet driven and thus needs little of the above.


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## mshatty

MULTIZ321 said:


> Perry,
> 
> Here's a link from NewCondoInvestor.com that ranks 5 new Cruise Ship Condo's
> that are at various stages of development
> 
> Here's another link to a South Florida Sun Sentinel article on Used Cruise Ships
> Resurface as Condos
> 
> Voyage Partners is the Marketing Arm handling the shared ownership program for
> Condo Cruise Lines International. Here is the link to Condo Cruise Lines International Florida Corporation Filing . Note that Sophlex Ship Management, Inc. is one of the Managing Members. Sophlex was purchased by Marine Growth Ventures (MGV) in 2004. A wholly-owned subsidiary of MGV - Marine Growth Canada, LTD (MGC) - purchased the Pacific Aurora (formerly Tavener ferry) in March 2007 with the intent to convert it to cruise timeshares.
> 
> MGV filed SEC Form 10-KSB on March 22, 2007. This SEC report details the MGV condo timeshare business plan and company history. It makes for alarming reading.
> 
> Some selected quotes from the SEC report - "We have a history of operating losses and accumulated deficit. There is No certainty that we will ever achieve profitability."
> 
> "We have incurred operating losses of $1,323,567 since inception."
> 
> "We expect to incur significant increases in operating losses over the next several years primarily due to the expansion of our operations into the cruise timeshare Industry."
> 
> "There can be no assurance that we will ever achieve any revenues or profitable operations from the sale of our timeshare products."
> 
> "Additional Financing will be necessary of the Implementation of our Timeshare operations."
> 
> "We currently do not have operations with which to finance the development of our cruise timeshare operation."
> 
> "As of December 31, 2006 we have not made any timeshare sales."
> 
> "We currently do not have sufficient cash reserves to meet all of our anticipated obligations for the next 12 months and there can be no assurance that we will ultimately close on the necessary financing."
> 
> "On March 2, 2007 MGV applied for a credit line of $4,100,000 from Greystone Business Credit II, LLC for the purchase of Marine Vessels." Term 3 years.
> 
> MGV's independent Public Accounting Firm (Weinberg & Company, PA) issued a going concern paragraph in their consolidated financial statement for the year ended December 31, 2006 that states there is a substantial doubt about MGV's ability to continue as a going concern.
> 
> On May 3rd, 2007 MGV terminated the services of Weinberg & Company, PA.
> Here's the link for verification
> 
> Several Tugger's have already got it right - this project is whoefully underfunded.
> 
> Richard


 
Sounds like they need to speak with a Chapter 11 bankruptcy lawyer.


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## MusicMan

> We four investors that you have mentioned have been to presentations and have asked questions to the Company who in return do not have all the answers since the ship has not been purchased.



...and then you ALLLLLLL just coincidentally stumbled on to TUG at the same time....YEAH RIGHT!!!


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