# Marriott tuggers are strange folks.



## jimf41 (Mar 12, 2015)

I've never met a group of people who owned, used and loved a product and yet would never recommend that anyone else buy it. It's the strangest thing I've ever seen in consumer products. In the same breath they advise you not to buy they'll tell you that it's the best product in it's category.

So it seems that they like the type of product and they mostly agree that it's the best, or one of the best, products of its kind but they won't recommend it to a friend or even a total stranger.

At the same time tuggers spend a huge amount of time researching every possible way to squeeze every bit of usefulness out of the product they own but won't recommend to anyone else.

About the only other consumer product that elicits this kind of behavior from its users is heroin. When you think about it the similarities are striking. Addicts have tremendous knowledge of their product but would never recommend it to a non-addict.


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## bogey21 (Mar 12, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> I've never met a group of people who owned, used and loved a product and yet would never recommend that anyone else buy it.



As one who bailed on my Marriott Weeks many years ago I don't think this phenomenon is so strange.  I was disgusted with the cavalier way Marriott changed their program to their benefit and my detriment.  On the other hand to this day I continue to think Marriott Resorts (and units) are top of the line.

George


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## Saintsfanfl (Mar 12, 2015)

While timeshares can have great value, they are not for everyone. Most timeshare buyers are regretful, so caution is warranted. I haven't seen anyone on here that says nobody should ever buy regardless of the circumstances.

For an example I point to a non-Marriott that I was trying to give away. I talked several people out of taking it. I would get an inquiry stating the person definitely wanted it but they didn't know how it worked. They didn't know anything at all about timeshares in general and definitely nothing about the resort, float period, reservation procedures, maintenance fees, or anything. Even though I like the unit and it is a cheap trader I could not recommend it to them until they became more familiar with what the ownership meant.


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## Saintsfanfl (Mar 12, 2015)

bogey21 said:


> As one who bailed on my Marriott Weeks many years ago I don't think this phenomenon is so strange.  I was disgusted with the cavalier way Marriott changed their program to their benefit and my detriment.  On the other hand to this day I continue to think Marriott Resorts (and units) are top of the line.
> 
> George



Good point


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## Wally3433 (Mar 12, 2015)

I agree.  I purchased from Marriott direct, paid some interest early on - the worst scenario possible.  It's taken me 10 years, but I have finally been able to get my per night cost down to the $240 range.....and I have loved every minute of it!  I know some people are in the "free" zone - but I am ecstatic with where I am at.

Would I recommend that same scenario to a friend - or even try to justify buying into the DC system - hell no.   I would recommend becoming a weeks owner, by purchasing on the secondary market, but that's it.

Another common phrase we use:  "timeshares are not for everyone"


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## aka Julie (Mar 12, 2015)

I wouldn't recommend to family or friends, merely because I know they wouldn't take the time to learn the ins and outs of Marriott timesharing.  Don't want them coming back to me with their regrets.


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## Wally3433 (Mar 12, 2015)

aka Julie said:


> I wouldn't recommend to family or friends, merely because I know they wouldn't take the time to learn the ins and outs of Marriott timesharing.  Don't want them coming back to me with their regrets.



This is so true.  I too fear the fictional day that a friend comes back to you and says "thanks alot, you idiot"


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## bazzap (Mar 12, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> I've never met a group of people who owned, used and loved a product and yet would never recommend that anyone else buy it. It's the strangest thing I've ever seen in consumer products. In the same breath they advise you not to buy they'll tell you that it's the best product in it's category.
> 
> So it seems that they like the type of product and they mostly agree that it's the best, or one of the best, products of its kind but they won't recommend it to a friend or even a total stranger.
> 
> ...


I guess times change, people change, products change.
I liked the developer weeks product when we bought (and the MFs were far lower!)
I loved the resale weeks product even more when we discovered it
I enjoy the added flexibility and choice of the DC points product that comes with enrolment
I don't like the DC points product as a separate purchase proposition 
I used to recommend the weeks product to friends, I would never recommend the DC points product to friends.
I absolutely love the holidays and lifestyle our ownership gives us.
I don't begrudge a penny (cent) of our capital investment, even though I know I could have spent less buying totally resale, for the unforgettable times this has given us and continues to give us.
I am concerned about the continuing above inflation levels of MF increase year on year for all of our weeks, as we try to manage our retirement budget into later years.


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## dansimms (Mar 12, 2015)

*Look at the numbers*

The numbers are telling.............410,000 owners out of 300 Million US Residents.  Odds are, you may have a couple of decent prospect in your circle who would enjoy it in a similar way. No more than that.  I have about 400 Facebook Friends and then add another 100 that aren't on Facebook.  Counting me, there are 3 or 4 of us into Timeshare.  So that is 1 in a hundred. Just 2 of the 4, counting me, reads TUG.


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## Swice (Mar 12, 2015)

*great move on our part*

We LOVE our timeshares.     Great decisions to buy and we've told many others that.      Yes, I think the "quality" of the Marriott timeshares are among the "best."    However, I no longer recommend for three reasons:  
The "value" of a Marriott timeshare purchase has changed.     I simply think it's way too expensive for someone to buy into Marriott from scratch now.
I am not a fan of the way Marriott has changed its sales tactics.   It's a more sleezy and used car approach.
Marriott doesn't seem to value and appreciate previous owners and is only focused on new (expensvie) sales


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## Saintsfanfl (Mar 12, 2015)

aka Julie said:


> I wouldn't recommend to family or friends, merely because I know they wouldn't take the time to learn the ins and outs of Marriott timesharing.  Don't want them coming back to me with their regrets.



My friends and family can't decide where they want to go two months in advance, let alone a year. They ask me all the time if I can book them a premium unit and premium week 4 weeks out and I'm like, "How about we plan for the next year? What? You only want to spend $200??? That last week I got you was special."


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## Janette (Mar 12, 2015)

Can I admit that I am an addict? We have more timeshares than brains but we did not buy them at today's prices. We are very fortunate to be able to share these beautiful condos with family and friends. We were educators and knew exactly when and where we wanted to travel when the kids were young. Our children aren't always able to plan a year out and want to travel worldwide. Buying resale would be good if they want the same resort every year but I can't promise them that they could always get the exchanges they want. I don't even know if they will want all our wonderful properties when we can't use them. I agree that it is strange.


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## GregT (Mar 12, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> I've never met a group of people who owned, used and loved a product and yet would never recommend that anyone else buy it. It's the strangest thing I've ever seen in consumer products. In the same breath they advise you not to buy they'll tell you that it's the best product in it's category.
> 
> So it seems that they like the type of product and they mostly agree that it's the best, or one of the best, products of its kind but they won't recommend it to a friend or even a total stranger.
> 
> ...



It is funny to hear it described this way, and you are completely correct.   Many of my friends and family are beneficiaries of my timeshare hobby, and yet I discourage all of them from buying the product because I know how easy it would be to become disenchanted with them.

Interesting comment -- and I love meeting other TUGgeres -- great to come across others who share my enthusiasm for these crazy things.

Best,

Greg


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## SueDonJ (Mar 12, 2015)

On the one hand I think TUG overall is skewed to a certain subset of timeshare owners who analyze the things half to death, sometimes sucking all the joy out of this method of vacationing.    And I always wonder how much PM/email activity goes on behind the scenes to benefit the many owners here who support their timeshare ownership through private rentals.  But on the other hand, I love that TUG delves into every aspect of ownership - the threads I enjoy the most are the ones where the legalities are dissected.

As a very happy Marriott owner I will recommend the products - Weeks and Points - to anyone who asks, always with the caveats that a resale market exists for every timeshare under the sun and that reading TUG before buying is indispensable.  I can count on two hands the number of people I know who have bought timeshares after reading TUG and of those, only two bought resale.  "Comfort level" is much more a factor than TUGgers realize, and I've been told that TUG's overall buy-resale-or-rent-don't-be-an-idiot vibe is a turn-off.  It's okay by me if folks choose to buy direct as long as they're informed buyers - and I'm not afraid to say that I'll do it again in an instant if/when we want more.


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## Mr. Vker (Mar 12, 2015)

I wouldn't buy MVCI today, but I love the program. Here's why:

We bought in 2005. Two developer weeks. One for $13,200 one for $20,000.00. (Phuket and Aruba) Aruba likely could have been cheaper resale, but another story. MF's were much less. Purchase incentives huge. Weeks program very attractive with much going on in II.

With the move to DC points, I have seen a decline. I still like going to our weeks. But the cost has skyrocketed. In January, we were in Phuket. Our week is now more than $33k. Really?  They would have ZERO chance at me buying at that price. The tours are higher pressure. 

HOWEVER, the product is still awesome. Its just much more expensive and complex to get into now. I love how it works for us. Between this and my Marriott work travel, we do great in their programs. I wouldn't encourage others to jump in though. Its a different animal now.


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## MALC9990 (Mar 12, 2015)

bazzap said:


> I guess times change, people change, products change.
> I liked the developer weeks product when we bought (and the MFs were far lower!)
> I loved the resale weeks product even more when we discovered it
> I enjoy the added flexibility and choice of the DC points product that comes with enrolment
> ...



I can say that all of those points would be mine also. yes I have recommended MVCI weeks to friends in the past - before I discovered TUG. I discovered resale before TUG - just luck whilst playing around on EBAY. So since then I always recommend resale weeks and also advise that they (those I am advising) spend the time required to understand what they are buying into. Some have taken my advice and now really get the best out of their ownership. Others, well they come to me regularly to help them plan their reservations. 

Since the DC points were introduced to Europe many owner friends have sought advice on enrolment and some have enrolled and some have not. Like Barry, I would never advise the purchase of DC Trust points - but then in Europe we cannot buy them for MVCI since the sales people are still selling weeks in Europe and are buying back weeks so they can sell them again.

The key piece of advice I have always given can be summed up as - Planning, Planning, Planning, Flexibility, Flexibility, Flexibility. Plan ahead - at least 12 months and be flexible on where and when you go on vacation. Therein lies the secret to MVCI vacation happiness.


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 12, 2015)

While not a Marriott owner .. this thread applies to almost all systems. 

I use timeshares - both points and weeks via several systems and love "the game" and "the benefits". But it takes a lot of knowledge and TIME to learn multiple systems .. but mainly, you have to know yourself and your family. Can I sit in a 2/2 for a week as a solo traveler and HAVE A GOOD TIME? Do I look at a resort and area, and say ... I should go there. Do I plan a year or more out from the checkin date? Can I take the bump in the road and not melt down --- because of the "pink unit"? And will I convince my extended family to "pack their bags, take their vacation days and try someplace NEW" ... happens more than not.

And when I travel, it is nice to have a pretty view .... but better to just be happy that life is so good and a timeshare unit is far better than Motel 6 room. 

PS I leave tomorrow for a 5 hour plane trip to go to a bunch of MLB (baseball) games which I hate ..... Where else could I come back with a sunburn and a hangover ... and then start to plan the 2016 Spring Training trip. I don't know why I do it - this is the third year and it gets more of my siblings (and the extended family each year) ... double in size this year from last. 

Next year, it might have a wedding happening the weekend before...good thing the wedding is before the Spring Training event ... the groom can't run off.


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## Mamianka (Mar 12, 2015)

Wally3433 said:


> This is so true.  I too fear the fictional day that a friend comes back to you and says "thanks alot, you idiot"



I do not fix up "blind dates", either.  We bought a *hole in the ground* (Grand Chateau) in 2004 - on a fluke.  Nice older lady stopped us on the street, asked us if this was our first time in Las Vegas - and even though friends at home had tried to convince us to buy TS, and we always said no - we then bought our first TS at the pre-build price.  Have not been sorry at all, ever.  Only time that we *wasted* some money was when they had an offer that for 3 grand, I think, you could convert for MRPs *every* year, not every other. Who knew . . . We only go to Vegas maybe once every 5 years or so - and on one visit, a salesperson said he noticed we traded out cold NY state weather for a week in Florida each year - and he has a *default* property  EOY at Beach Place - so we bought it.  Got in just under the wire before The Big Change.  Were allowed to enroll our weeks for cheap, soon after.   We never go to any meetings anymore - I read here.  Yes - retired teachers - we are compulsive researchers and fact-checkers.  We plan WELL into the future - I have a projected, color-coded database of where we want to go, and how we are going to finagle it, up to 2019.  For many of us, planning - and getting a good deal - are half the fun!  MY friend says that I belong to a church with an Eleventh Commandment - "Thou shalt never pay full price!"  So - we have done the math.  We bought when money was easily spent on things like this.  We calculate what the REAL costs of our vacations are (and what would be the cost to ourselves and each other, if we did NOT take nice vacations!)  Although they never travel with us, and never accepted a gift, our kids FINALLY are using some days of ours this year as part of a four-friends trip out West.  I have shared those useless-to-us ACs with people who have no money to speak of, work hard, and have been good to us and our family - and their first REAL vacation has bee to take their kids to a nice place for a week.  We know to the nickle what we SPEND for all this - and know that it is worth it to us - for what we paid WHEN we did, plus what we pay now.  Would we tell others to NOW shell out a whole lot more $$, and in this economy?  No - and why should they, when WE can share with them?  I just used my MOD to get friends a 1BR at the Chateau, on a gift card, for $97 plus tax a night.  Yeah, we pay maintenance - but we still think we are ahead.  Those who want to jump on board NOW, I do not think are so lucky.  We just happened to be on the right corner at the right time, when the sweet older lady in Las Vegas tapped us on the shoulder.  Sorry if this sounds like a smarmy add for Marriott - but that is not my intent, really.  Jut saying that this worked - and we MADE it work - for us.  Not the most *expert* of users - but happy.  This next week, I will meet someone poolside who will have NO CLUE how to do any of this - and has owned for decades.  They might be just fine - they might be cranky - so I send them here.  I wonder how many actually read anything here.
M


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## ronparise (Mar 12, 2015)

Like Linda, Im not a Marriott owner, but I act the same way with Wyndham and Worldmark...I love what I own and spend a great deal of time making it work for me. But I dont recommend them (or any timeshare) to others.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 12, 2015)

I would say that Timeshares are a niche product, but that's not true. They are a set of different sub-niche products inside a niche product.

Do you fit one of the sub-niches? If you do, then great, buy the product. If not, it's a bad mistake to buy the product. Most of us don't want to take the responsibility for determining if it's a good fit, so we don't recommend.

It's not something that sorta fits, kinda fits, or maybe fits works. It has to be an exact fit, or you're just sowing long term disappointment.

In the broadest sense:

If you want maximum flexiblity = $$$
If you want instant gratification = $$$
If you want guaranteed times = $$$

Timeshares are about value for money. You trade some of the above capabilities for a lower price (maintenance fees). Now, if you know huge amounts about the internal working, have positioned yourself correctly and plan far in advance, you can recapture many of the expensive capabilities you give up by going the Timehare route, if they are important to you. Otherwise, you have to be accepting of what's left, time and/or resort wise.

Many TUGgers enjjoy the "thrill fo the game" getting reservation almost as much as the vacations themselves. If that's your personality type, enjoy. If not, be forewarned.

It's not for everybody...


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## jont (Mar 12, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> On the one hand I think TUG overall is skewed to a certain subset of timeshare owners who analyze the things half to death, sometimes sucking all the joy out of this method of vacationing.    And I always wonder how much PM/email activity goes on behind the scenes to benefit the many owners here who support their timeshare ownership through private rentals.  But on the other hand, I love that TUG delves into every aspect of ownership - the threads I enjoy the most are the ones where the legalities are dissected.
> 
> As a very happy Marriott owner I will recommend the products - Weeks and Points - to anyone who asks, always with the caveats that a resale market exists for every timeshare under the sun and that reading TUG before buying is indispensable.  I can count on two hands the number of people I know who have bought timeshares after reading TUG and of those, only two bought resale.  "Comfort level" is much more a factor than TUGgers realize, and I've been told that TUG's overall buy-resale-or-rent-don't-be-an-idiot vibe is a turn-off.  It's okay by me if folks choose to buy direct as long as they're informed buyers - and I'm not afraid to say that I'll do it again in an instant if/when we want more.


I gotta agree with my favorite mod. I have no problem recommending to friends that they buy a marriott timeshare but I make sure to STRONGLY emphasize that they understand the lifelong comittment to rising mainteanance fees and that the same product is almost always available on the resale market for a fraction of the price Marriott charges. I wish someone would have told me that before my first purchase.


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## SkyBlueWaters (Mar 12, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> On the one hand I think TUG overall is skewed to a certain subset of timeshare owners who analyze the things half to death, sometimes sucking all the joy out of this method of vacationing.    And I always wonder how much PM/email activity goes on behind the scenes to benefit the many owners here who support their timeshare ownership through private rentals.



Tuggers analyze to death not half to death.

I am in a circle of timesharers (my family) and would recommend in a heartbeat to anyone who can afford the lifestyle. I come here to maximize use. Thanks to tug, I am the expert in my family and wish all my friends would buy into this but they are afraid of the costs and limitations.


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## mjm1 (Mar 12, 2015)

We love our Marriott's and other systems we own. I do recommend timesharing to others I know, but with similar caveats that others have mentioned. It definitely isn't for everyone, but if one is willing to spend the time to really understand how to use them effectively, the vacation lifestyle is great.  I am concerned about the continuing rising MF's, especially as we get closer to retirement. We will likely have to dial back our ownership at some point and then use getaways, last minute rentals, etc. for additional time if and when we need them.

Mike


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## Bucky (Mar 12, 2015)

I have no problems at all recommending buying a Marriott as long as the person has done their due diligence! Like I did, I highly recommend they buy resale but different strokes for different folks. I ran into a guy in Brunswick, GA the other night who owns four weeks at MOW. I can guarantee you he paid retail for each week but as long as he has the disposable income, he is a very happy owner.

As far as escalating MF go, they are going to have to at least double before I pay more than I would renting a similar unit at the beach. I say similar because as far as I'm concerned there is nothing that compares to MOW in Myrtle Beach. Unlike some, we actually bought where we love to stay.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 12, 2015)

For us, the product that we own simply can't be bought. At least not without having to buy, IMO, rather expensive trust points. You can't buy an enroll-able week. I would still recommend Marriott to people that I know are willing to put the time in to learn the system. I would only recommend weeks and exchanging through II. That means the person must also be rather flexible and doesn't have to travel during peak season. If they are planning their summer vacations in January or February, Marriott in any form isn't the product for them.

Most people coming here that just sat through a presentation and are posting for the first time probably are not ready to own yet. Though that doesn't mean the product may not be for them

I do find the whole rent not buy advice to be odd. Perhaps there is an agenda behind this or we don't want people to know how really good things are? If we can scare enough people away, perhaps we can keep the good stuff to ourselves?

I think in the end, we want people to be educated about what they bought and not think that it is a simple system to work with. There is a lot to know in order to be able to use your week. Calling a few minutes late can shut you out. Not being willing to put in the time to work the II exchange system will leave many disappointed.


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## MabelP (Mar 12, 2015)

I bought four developer weeks and have never regretted it. Bought platinum weeks as I travel public holidays. They have worked beautifully for me.


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## jackio (Mar 12, 2015)

Saintsfanfl said:


> My friends and family can't decide where they want to go two months in advance, let alone a year. They ask me all the time if I can book them a premium unit and premium week 4 weeks out and I'm like, "How about we plan for the next year? What? You only want to spend $200??? That last week I got you was special."



LOL, that is my family exactly.  And there have been times I have gotten them  units a year in advance and they bailed on me a month before the reservation.


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## fizzysoup (Mar 12, 2015)

I agree with many of the points on here.
Love the product. Wish I had discovered resales/tug before purchasing.
Initially didn't regret the the significant 'developer' price', but as the Maintenance Fees have rocketed at a rate much higher than inflation, I feel we loyal owners are now being 'fleeced' by MVCI.

Mr Viker surely your purchase in "2015" is a misprint.....you do mean 2005, don't you?


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## Saintsfanfl (Mar 12, 2015)

fizzysoup said:


> I feel we loyal owners are now being 'fleeced' by MVCI.



Not fleeced. Just paying for the past sins of "lower than they shoulda been" annual fees. Running and maintaining a Marriott quality resort is very expensive.


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## JIMinNC (Mar 12, 2015)

fizzysoup said:


> ...as the Maintenance Fees have rocketed at a rate much higher than inflation, I feel we loyal owners are now being 'fleeced' by MVCI.



I read this sentiment often, that it's somehow surprising that maintenance fees are rising faster than inflation. But remember the "inflation rate" is only an average for the economy as a whole. Different components rise and fall at different rates for different reasons, so just because maintenance fees are rising faster than inflation does not mean anyone is necessarily being fleeced.

Just looking at the 2013 through 2015 budgets at Barony Beach Club, the primary contributor to the 3.5% to 4.5% cost increases over that period was Housekeeping expense. Housekeeping is about 20% of the total operating budget and is the largest single line item. From 2013 to 2014 it increased 7.4% and from 2014 to 2015 it increased 6.2%. Housekeeping is perhaps the most labor-intensive line item in a resort budget, so even though overall wage rates for hourly workers have not been rising very fast over the last few decades, total personnel costs are being heavily impacted by the dramatic increases in the cost of providing health insurance benefits over the last decade or so.

If anyone was being fleeced, you would see the "management fee" Marriott charges the HOA's going up at an unreasonable rate and, at least in the case of Barony, the management fee increase was exactly the same as the overall rate of increase. 

The modest Marriott management fee increases are a pleasant change from our previous ownership with Diamond Resorts Kaanapali Beach Club where "Indirect Corporate Costs" and "Management Fee" were the major contributors to maintenance fee increases that were often 6% to 10% annually. Now THAT is being fleeced.


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## BocaBoy (Mar 12, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> I read this sentiment often, that it's somehow surprising that maintenance fees are rising faster than inflation. But remember the "inflation rate" is only an average for the economy as a whole. Different components rise and fall at different rates for different reasons, so just because maintenance fees are rising faster than inflation does not mean anyone is necessarily being fleeced.
> 
> Just looking at the 2013 through 2015 budgets at Barony Beach Club, the primary contributor to the 3.5% to 4.5% cost increases over that period was Housekeeping expense. Housekeeping is about 20% of the total operating budget and is the largest single line item. From 2013 to 2014 it increased 7.4% and from 2014 to 2015 it increased 6.2%. Housekeeping is perhaps the most labor-intensive line item in a resort budget, so even though overall wage rates for hourly workers have not been rising very fast over the last few decades, total personnel costs are being heavily impacted by the dramatic increases in the cost of providing health insurance benefits over the last decade or so.
> 
> ...



I think the escalation in the costs of running a large luxury condominium should be not that different from the escalation in costs of running a timeshare.  I am talking about the escalation factor, not the absolute level. And yet, the MF increases at most Marriott timeshares are many multiples of the increase in private luxury condominiums with comparable services to a timeshare.


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## JIMinNC (Mar 12, 2015)

BocaBoy said:


> I think the escalation in the costs of running a large luxury condominium should be not that different from the escalation in costs of running a timeshare.  I am talking about the escalation factor, not the absolute level. And yet, the MF increases at most Marriott timeshares are many multiples of the increase in private luxury condominiums with comparable services to a timeshare.



The HOAs at luxury condos do not generally provide daily/weekly housekeeping do they? Most luxury condos are owned by an individual and that individual provides their own housekeeping. My understanding is if that owner rents their condo, they must provide that housekeeping out of their rental income, not the HOA dues.

There is also no need for a whole-ownership condo HOA to provide replacement reserves for furniture, appliances, etc as that is the responsibility of the owner of that condo. The HOA only manages the exterior/structure of the buildings, the grounds, pools/activities, etc. They are two different animals with two very different cost structures.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 12, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> If anyone was being fleeced, you would see the "management fee" Marriott charges the HOA's going up at an unreasonable rate and, at least in the case of Barony, the management fee increase was exactly the same as the overall rate of increase.
> 
> The modest Marriott management fee increases are a pleasant change from our previous ownership with Diamond Resorts Kaanapali Beach Club where "Indirect Corporate Costs" and "Management Fee" were the major contributors to maintenance fee increases that were often 6% to 10% annually. Now THAT is being fleeced.



The increase in Management fees is directly tied to the increase in MFs. The management fee at most Marriott properties is 10% of the MF. If the MF goes up 5%, the management fee does too.


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## JIMinNC (Mar 12, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> The increase in Management fees is directly tied to the increase in MFs. The management fee at most Marriott properties is 10% of the MF. If the MF goes up 5%, the management fee does too.



Since the management fee increase percentage at Barony was exactly the same as the overall MF increase percentage, I thought it might be something like that. 

That is a great way to do it - unlike Diamond who decides they want to give themselves a 15% raise and do so often.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 12, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> Since the management fee increase percentage at Barony was exactly the same as the overall MF increase percentage, I thought it might be something like that.
> 
> That is a great way to do it - unlike Diamond who decides they want to give themselves a 15% raise and do so often.



But were the DRI increases a result of also increasing MFs. Weren't they upping the MFs at a number of their acquired resorts to try to bring them up to Diamond standards?


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## KathyPet (Mar 12, 2015)

I am sorry that I bought my timeshares.  Now that I am retired DH and I prefer to,vacation very differently then we did when we were raising our family.   Now we prefer traveling in Europe and cruising.   I can usually Palm one week off on my daughter although she is getting tired of the limited locations available within driving distance of her home.  I don't want to go to the same location every year.  I want to see new places.  My timeshares are a albatross around my neck.  yes I know I can rent them but that takes way too much time and effort.  Chasing a location that is available for DCA points is a major PITA.  I am sorry I ever bought them and not just for the financial loss I have taken.


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## JIMinNC (Mar 12, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> But were the DRI increases a result of also increasing MFs. Weren't they upping the MFs at a number of their acquired resorts to try to bring them up to Diamond standards?



There was some of that I think at some Diamond Resorts, but at least at Kaanapali Beach Club, the "Management Fee" and "Indirect Corporate Costs" went up like 20% each from 2013 to 2014 and that was the major driver in driving the MF for a 2BR unit up by almost 10%. The other operating cost components went up a lot less. I consider that giving themselves a raise.

Diamond acquired Kaanapali Beach Club quite a few years ago when they acquired Sunterra, so any upgrades were done way back then.


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## Mr. Vker (Mar 13, 2015)

fizzysoup said:


> I agree with many of the points on here.
> Love the product. Wish I had discovered resales/tug before purchasing.
> Initially didn't regret the the significant 'developer' price', but as the Maintenance Fees have rocketed at a rate much higher than inflation, I feel we loyal owners are now being 'fleeced' by MVCI.
> 
> Mr Viker surely your purchase in "2015" is a misprint.....you do mean 2005, don't you?



YIKES 2005--correct. Sorry.


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## bogey21 (Mar 13, 2015)

KathyPet said:


> I am sorry that I bought my timeshares.  Now that I am retired DH and I prefer to,vacation very differently then we did when we were raising our family...... My timeshares are a albatross around my neck.



Everyone should review their "Portfolio" at least once a year.  Inertia is your enemy.  If you see changes in your lifestyle or your financial situation, you need to start the process of changing or eliminating Weeks.  It takes time.  The longer you wait to make changes costs money. 

George


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## jont (Mar 13, 2015)

bogey21 said:


> Everyone should review their "Portfolio" at least once a year.  Inertia is your enemy.  If you see changes in your lifestyle or your financial situation, you need to start the process of changing or eliminating Weeks.  It takes time.  The longer you wait to make changes costs money.
> 
> George


good advice George.


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## enma (Mar 13, 2015)

We love our weeks and have no regrets. We have 3 developer weeks and 2 resale. I just wish we had discovered resale earlier. I have recommend Marriott to friends and family over and over again and few of them have bought resale (as recommended). The way I look at it, yes, financially it was not a smart move. However, I seriously doubt I'll regret the nice trips and memories with family on my death bed, more than likely I would regret I didn't do it  even if I had few extra dollars on my bank account.


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## Beefnot (Mar 13, 2015)

I find that the hesitance, or even outright refusal, to recommend others get into timesharing is quite reasonable. Many actors, very successful ones who love what they do, will plainly discourage others from following in their footsteps, not because they do not want competition, but because they know the odds of success are so low. Statistically speaking, they know how the story will likely end.

Many of us love it because we enjoy spending the time learning how to maximize our usage. We also probably recognize that most people are too lazy, or don't have the time, or (giving benefit of the doubt) maybe not sophisticated enough, to learn how to vacation any other way than the typical hotel approach to securing accommodations. We don't want to recommend something that will often more likely than not--for whatever reason, good, bad, or indifferent--end in failure. With an asset that is difficult to extricate one's self from. This last part may also be perhaps the larger issue. If it were rather easy to dabble and simply divest one's self of the asset if it didn't work out, then I for one would be more inclined to recommend it. Without viable exit options, it is difficult to recommend when I already believe that there is a strong chance that they will flounder and fail at enjoying what they have purchased.


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## chunkygal (Mar 13, 2015)

That is to funny comparing MVC owners to heroin users, but so true.

I hesitate to recommend because most people won't put the time in to understand it and it would be such a large expense I would not want to be responsible. We had friends who bought DVC after vacationing with us and were able to sell for what they bought and had great vacations....but that is a rare situation.

Heck my husband s eyes glaze over when I discuss the finer points of vacation club reservation strategies. He just wants his butt in a Lounge chair where he wants his butt in a lounge chair and when he wants it there. So far it's worked out for him and us. Lately it takes more work.

I have never regretted it. We have had great vacations and memories.

I feel more sure about my DVC product than MVC and for that reason may sell.
There seem to be less moving parts
But I am willing to wait and see what happens after this recent downgrade.


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## TEA CIE (Mar 14, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> There was some of that I think at some Diamond Resorts, but at least at Kaanapali Beach Club, the "Management Fee" and "Indirect Corporate Costs" went up like 20% each from 2013 to 2014 and that was the major driver in driving the MF for a 2BR unit up by almost 10%. The other operating cost components went up a lot less. I consider that giving themselves a raise.
> 
> Diamond acquired Kaanapali Beach Club quite a few years ago when they acquired Sunterra, so any upgrades were done way back then.



I think I have made a big mistake.  I just bought a lot of DRI points in February. I stayed at Diamond Greenspring in Williamsburg. It was the first time I stayed at a DRI resort.  I rescinded my original purchase after I returned home. But the salesperson kept calling me and telling me that she would get fired if I didn't go through with the purchase.  And so I did end up purchasing a smaller packager after much negotiations to get a lower priced point.  But from everything I recently read here about DRI it seems to be a horrible company.  What should I do?


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## JIMinNC (Mar 14, 2015)

TEA CIE said:


> I think I have made a big mistake.  I just bought a lot of DRI points in February. I stayed at Diamond Greenspring in Williamsburg. It was the first time I stayed at a DRI resort.  I rescinded my original purchase after I returned home. But the salesperson kept calling me and telling me that she would get fired if I didn't go through with the purchase.  And so I did end up purchasing a smaller packager after much negotiations to get a lower priced point.  But from everything I recently read here about DRI it seems to be a horrible company.  What should I do?



The Diamond forum here on TUG can give you better input on Diamond. They have some nice resorts and Kaanapali Beach Club was a very, very nice resort. The only reason we sold was we were not going to Hawaii quite as much as we had in past years and paying Hawaii MF got old. When we bought into Marriott last summer, we decided to sell our KBC. I think Marriott is more professional and better quality overall, but there are many people who have no issue with DRI. We did not own DRI points; we were a deeded week owner at KBC.

Overall my perception is that DRI is a notch below the big hotel-affiliated timeshare brands (Marriott, Hilton, Starwood, Hyatt, etc.) but is one of the better brands in the next tier. That's just my perception.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 14, 2015)

TEA CIE said:


> I think I have made a big mistake.  I just bought a lot of DRI points in February. I stayed at Diamond Greenspring in Williamsburg. It was the first time I stayed at a DRI resort.  I rescinded my original purchase after I returned home. But the salesperson kept calling me and telling me that she would get fired if I didn't go through with the purchase.  And so I did end up purchasing a smaller packager after much negotiations to get a lower priced point.  But from everything I recently read here about DRI it seems to be a horrible company.  What should I do?



You really don't have many options except to use what you bought. It would seem you are now outside your rescission period. You let the sales reps sob story keep you in the deal. You could possibly sell the DRI points you bought if you paid cash, but expect to have a large financial loss. Best to figure out the best way to get the most of your ownership.


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## ilene13 (Mar 14, 2015)

We do not regret purchasing any of our timeshares.  All of our weeks were purchased from the developers.  We began buying them in 1980 and resales were unheard of.  We have bought and sold a quite a few of them.  We currently own 7 weeks where we want to go.  We do exchange when we want to, but we do go on other trips also.  

The only thing I do not like is that it has become more difficult to book our Aruba weeks.  I thought that when I retired ( I was a high school AP) it would become easier, no we are now tied to our grandson's school schedule.  

It is what it is, we have had many priceless memories.  Would I recommend a Marriott purchase.  Maybe, but each situation needs to be weighed individually.


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## rfc0001 (Mar 14, 2015)

Great thread!  I'm a non-Marriott owner, but envied it for years, and tried to wrap my mind around Marriott resale a while ago.

It think the essence of this phenomenon is people love Marriott resorts, but Marriott resale is broken, and Marriott direct doesn't make a lot of financial sense for many.

That said, it's always been this way.  Marriott "classic" has always been a fixed resort/unit/season timeshare -- you have to own the exact resort/unit/season you wanted to stay in _every year_ or have to exchange even if you just want a different unit size at your home resort -- no flexibility to book other Marriott resorts or even other unit sizes at your home resort.  Therefore, it's just as easy (or as difficult as the case turns out) to exchange into the desired Marriott  resort/unit as any other II exchanger -- in which case you would be better off buying an II exchanger if you don't want to stay at the same resort/unit type every year.  That's a pretty limited value IMO compared to point based systems like HGVC and DVC.

Granted they tried to "fix" this by moving to a points system, but that's where the wheels fell off the bus -- now the inventory is split in the two systems, original owners had to pay to upgrade to Points (and pay annual fee), and resale weeks have almost no savings to direct points purchases by the time you pay all the fees to repatriate the points.

So, despite having great _resorts_, it's hard to recommend Marriott resale since you are stuck either using the resort/unit/season you bought or having to exchange, and if you want the flexibility of points, you pretty much have to buy from MVC, making it equally hard to recommend.  This is why despite loving Marriott resorts, I can't bring myself to buy into the system.  If I visited the same resort every year I would reconsider.

OP, how did my explanation do for a non-Heroin addict?


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## JIMinNC (Mar 15, 2015)

rfc0001 said:


> ...and resale weeks have almost no savings to direct points purchases by the time you pay all the fees to repatriate the points.



Not really true. Hybrid resale purchases (a resale week with matching points buy) from Marriott resales can easily yield a cost per point purchased of $7 to $8 per point (and I've seen some quoted on here that were as low as $6.50/pt or so). This compares to over $12/point at full retail. I think Marriott often discounts larger points buys to $10/point or so - but even then, the resale week hybrid does offer a considerable savings. It can still be pricey even at $7/point, but hybrids do offer considerable savings.


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## rfc0001 (Mar 15, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> Not really true. Hybrid resale purchases (a resale week with matching points buy) from Marriott resales can easily yield a cost per point purchased of $7 to $8 per point (and I've seen some quoted on here that were as low as $6.50/pt or so). This compares to over $12/point at full retail. I think Marriott often discounts larger points buys to $10/point or so - but even then, the resale week hybrid does offer a considerable savings. It can still be pricey even at $7/point, but hybrids do offer considerable savings.


Yep, I was referring to 3rd party resales, not purchasing resales direct from Marriott -- which is my point of reference for comparison.  Thanks for clarifying (was clear in my head ).  Marriott has basically made it so the only way to buy into Points in the secondary market is through them as the broker -- they've priced everyone else out.


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## Fasttr (Mar 15, 2015)

rfc0001 said:


> Yep, I was referring to 3rd party resales, not purchasing resales direct from Marriott -- which is my point of reference for comparison.  Thanks for clarifying (was clear in my head ).  Marriott has basically made it so the only way to buy into Points in the secondary market is through them as the broker -- they've priced everyone else out.



Several TUGgers have reported purchasing 3rd party resale points between $4 and $5 per point and after tacking on the $2 per point junk fees and you are in the $6-$7 range....so like the hybrid approach, this is still a viable option for those wanting to play purely in the points program.  I don't agree that MVC has forced points to be purchased directly from them.  They have made it painful with the junk fees, but its still cheaper via the pure 3rd party resale market.


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## rfc0001 (Mar 15, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> Several TUGgers have reported purchasing 3rd party resale points between $4 and $5 per point and after tacking on the $2 per point junk fees and you are in the $6-$7 range....so like the hybrid approach, this is still a viable option for those wanting to play purely in the points program.  I don't agree that MVC has forced points to be purchased directly from them.  They have made it painful with the junk fees, but its still cheaper via the pure 3rd party resale market.


Thanks for clarifying -- my perspective is dating back from the early days of points resales where it was still pretty murky what the fees and restrictions were.  Thanks for clarifying -- I might take another look at points resales since they is really what we are looking for to give us flexibility to stay at the resort/unit we want every year.  Thanks!


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## jimf41 (Mar 16, 2015)

rfc0001 said:


> Great thread!  I'm a non-Marriott owner, but envied it for years, and tried to wrap my mind around Marriott resale a while ago.
> 
> It think the essence of this phenomenon is people love Marriott resorts, but Marriott resale is broken, and Marriott direct doesn't make a lot of financial sense for many.
> 
> ...



Well since you asked, not to good IMO. Better than the actors analogy, that was way off. I can think of at least a dozen acting families off hand. 

First off Marriott resale isn't broken. In fact nothing about the sales end of Marriott timeshares is broken. The developer is selling points like hotcakes. Don't believe that? Check out VAC on your favorite stock tracker. The company is doing so well that it started paying dividends this year. Reading TUG for just a week and you'll have to conclude that the resale market is doing fine also, not that Marriott cares about that. For all those who say that buying DC points at $12 each is crazy I say that there are a lot of folks doing just that. 

Being stuck "using the resort/unit/season you bought or having to exchange" is all that any Marriott owner could do prior to 6/2010. Yes I know they had a great rental program and the amount of points you got went a lot further than today, so what, times change. I used to buy gas at 30 cents a gal. and they'd pump it, clean my windshield and check my oil and give me a free coffee cup.

This thread wasn't really aimed at you. You've looked at Marriott and decided that the cost/benefit ratio of buying resale or developer doesn't fit your needs. What I was referring to were current owners who love their Marriott timeshare(s) but who will tell a friend not to buy what gives them a great deal of pleasure.

Some posters have said it's too hard a system to learn and they wouldn't want a friend to be burdened with that. To them I say get smarter friends. Some say the price has gone too high since you bought. Really, why don't you let your friends decide what they can afford. And here's my favorite "Most people are sorry they bought". Outright nonsense. 400,000 Marriott owners and some of you actually think more than 200,000 are unhappy. Does anybody really think that is true? I spent a few weeks at Frenchmans Cove recently and I didn't notice too many grieving families as I strolled by the pool. Certainly not more than 50%. 

I've always recommended timeshares to my friends. Several have taken tours and two have bought into Marriott. Both are very happy. I just can't imagine not wanting to tell a friend how to do what I do every year.

No, I don't work for Marriott and never have. If I'd started with another chain I think I'd be happy. I do think that Marriott offers the best all around value for the price.


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## Beefnot (Mar 16, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> Well since you asked, not to good IMO. Better than the actors analogy, that was way off. I can think of at least a dozen acting families off hand.



Oh yes there are plenty of acting families. The analogy does not apply to nepotism. You must know very little about actors other than nepotism. My comment about many successful actors and their advice to newbies is actually spot on.  Whether that is analogous to why timeshare owners are reluctant to recommend timesharing to others, folks can debate that.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 16, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> Well since you asked, not to good IMO. Better than the actors analogy, that was way off. I can think of at least a dozen acting families off hand.
> 
> First off Marriott resale isn't broken. In fact nothing about the sales end of Marriott timeshares is broken. The developer is selling points like hotcakes. Don't believe that? Check out VAC on your favorite stock tracker. The company is doing so well that it started paying dividends this year. Reading TUG for just a week and you'll have to conclude that the resale market is doing fine also, not that Marriott cares about that. For all those who say that buying DC points at $12 each is crazy I say that there are a lot of folks doing just that.
> 
> ...



"A timeshare or a vaction club, that is the question."

I state that, because they are _not_ the same. Different goals, wants, and perspectives. Having the same physical plant (which is really excellent) serving both purposes, is causing an unhappy fit. 

It causes competition between the two groups, with the tie-breaker going to the vacation club portion.

Now, I don't mean to diss the Vacation Club portion. Objectively, Marriot, in building its vacation club, has built a first class vacation club. I like to think of it as the sort of thing that Marriott did when they start their timeshares in the 1980's. Provide a class offering in a market place that really didn't have a big name, class offering.

But a vacation club is not a timeshare, and vice versa. It serves a different clientle, with different goals, _even if it uses the exact same physical plant._ 

Let me go into a little detail. The typical vacation club owner wants to be able to go to a variety of places, and often does not want to go to the same place twice, or at least infrequently. Now on these sites, that clientle wants to have a nice, spacious apartment, for their money, but that does not invalidate the general travel preference.

A classic timeshare owner, is the opposite. They want to go back to the same place, over and over, and want to assure themselves of that access, by buying a defined share of a particular place.

Now a classic timeshare owner is a very small demographic, and much effort has been made by the Time Share companies to broaden their client bases. This has been done by providing internal and external swapping options (II, RCI, ect). In essence, bulding a "vacation club" clientle, in a slipshod, after-the-fact, glue-gum-and-string, set of add-ons. I also suspect that the majority of timeshare owners are more philosophically attuned to the "vacation club" concept that the original timeshare concept.

I think the confusion between the two concepts is due to physical space. Timeshares were usually offered a large apartment-like spaces, whereas the classic go-anywhere vacation (which is what the vacation club concept is attuned to) was a small hotel room. So people who wanted space bought timeshares, as that was the only product on the market. And then tried to "make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" by finding ways to swap around.

Marriott's Vacation Club is the elegant answer to the issue.

However, they are not an elegant answer to the original timeshare demographic, _which already owned a Marriott timeshare_. They have been devalued compared to the Vacation Club. 

Which is why I'm exiting Marriott, once the sales settle.


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## Quilter (Mar 16, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> Some posters have said it's too hard a system to learn and they wouldn't want a friend to be burdened with that. To them I say get smarter friends. Some say the price has gone too high since you bought. Really, why don't you let your friends decide what they can afford. And here's my favorite "Most people are sorry they bought". Outright nonsense. 400,000 Marriott owners and some of you actually think more than 200,000 are unhappy. Does anybody really think that is true? I spent a few weeks at Frenchmans Cove recently and I didn't notice too many grieving families as I strolled by the pool. Certainly not more than 50%.
> 
> I've always recommended timeshares to my friends. Several have taken tours and two have bought into Marriott. Both are very happy. I just can't imagine not wanting to tell a friend how to do what I do every year.



Jim, I also had 2 friends buy.   They came together to visit us at OP the very first year when it was just 1 building.   Went to sales presentation and both bought.   I have never been at the resort the same time they have.   One couple seemed to use it for her parents.   The other couple forfeited a year because they didn't get around to reserving the week.   Educated and owner/management level jobs.   They joke with me that they need to hire me to manage their weeks.   I've offered but that never came to anything.   Would that be 1 out of 3 happy with the purchase?

After that I sent in lots of names for Friendshare.   But it was a type of sales work that I realized I didn't want.   

We got into this rather oddly.   We weren't in the market but while in Antigua we went on a sales presentation merely for the incentive. . .   When we came home we rescinded on a purchase but at the same time there was a postcard in our mail from Marriott Telesales.   It ended up as our first week.   Found TUG shortly after because of an article in USAToday.   Without that I don't think we would have gotten into it the way we did.  

Generally I don't recommend Marriott timeshares to friends for many of the reasons above.   However, I'm glad the company is doing well and the sales force is finding interested buyers.  I can't imagine how they find people at the current prices but what would happen if they didn't.   

Another main reason I don't recommend they buy is we have so much inventory I can find vacations for my friends.    I could even buy points to use and make reservations for them.  Very few take me up on this.   They don't plan that far in advance.


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## bogey21 (Mar 16, 2015)

I like the distinction between Vacation Club and TS Ownership.  Thinking back it more or less explains my actions when I got disenchanted with Marriott way back when.  I sold my 3 Floating Weeks which have some characteristics in common with a Vacation Club and held on to and used my Fixed Week Monarch Crown Suite for another 5 years or so.

George


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## IuLiKa (Mar 16, 2015)

I had a friend buy couple of years ago directly from Marriott because he wanted  a specific week. In the end he bought a second week, and end up with 5 bedrooms total for a purchase price of 100K. Now he has so many points that he used them to stay at Newport Coast for 1 month with his family while his home was getting remodeled. 

I think it all depends on the "friend" and how much money they want to spend..

In any group of people you will find strange folks.. statistically speaking


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## JIMinNC (Mar 16, 2015)

bogey21 said:


> I like the distinction between Vacation Club and TS Ownership.  Thinking back it more or less explains my actions when I got disenchanted with Marriott way back when.  I sold my 3 Floating Weeks which have some characteristics in common with a Vacation Club and held on to and used my Fixed Week Monarch Crown Suite for another 5 years or so.
> 
> George



I also like the distinction. I think it works well to describe the two very different motivations that I read about often here on TUG. 

We fall mainly in the Vacation Club camp, which may explain why we didn't become part of Marriott until after the advent of the Points Program. Having said that, I think we will soon also decide that a Timeshare need also has a place in our vacation portfolio, and will likely look to a resale Marriott Hilton Head week in the next few years.


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## l0410z (Mar 19, 2015)

Einstein said “If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.”  When what you sell has a need for high markup required to cover SG&A and resales  are eating your lunch,  every industry better find a way to change.  Fixed, floating, points, vacation clubs are all forms of timeshare ownership.   All products are means to and end and it can be the same end.  You just get there in different ways.  All products have benefits and challenges.   In reading threads on Tug, we have people who bought DC points who often go to the same location and we have people who purchased resale fix/floating weeks who almost never go to the same location.  Each have happy owners and each have unhappy owners.  In my opinion vacation club is a marketing and sales strategy.   This doesn't matter if you enjoy the product by using it the way you want.   I am not suggesting DC ownership doesn't come with additional benefits because it does.  It also comes with additional challenges or we wouldn't have tiers requiring additional purchases meant to try and fix some of the challenges. 

Back to topic.   I own a fixed Marriott summer week  (Monarch) and a non- Marriott fixed red week  (Legacy Vacation Club of Orlando).  I am very happy with my 20 year timeshare ownership.    This being said, the advice I offer to anyone asking me my opinion on purchasing; Timeshare ownership requires adjusting to small changes, adapting to big changes, being flexible, managing  your own expectations, and having a little luck.  I discuss new/used and the ongoing, increasing MF’s.  If they understand all this,  timeshare ownership can  be right for them.  

 In 1995,  I purchased HHI to go every year and a non-Marriott to trade every year.  My wife and I do not plan vacations far out  and this was our answer. The HHI forever was a  1995 view looking forward that lasted  4 more years.   How I now use them changes almost yearly. The change in the industry played a very minor part in my usage changes. The shrinking world and the ability to research everything and get anywhere played a bigger part in the usage changes.  The biggest influence in all the usage changes  was and still is  life….. promotions and  the occasional concern of losing my job,  my kids going to sleepaway camp, school sports every sports season, kids studying abroad, summer jobs when in college, planned weddings,  and at times health issues within the family.   The only thing that hasn’t changed is our lack of longer term vacation planning.    

II history is a wonderful source of information.  To adapt and get through all the changes…….   We exchanged our Marriott  week into II 3 times, for MR a number of times and rented the unit  a number of times. We exchanged  our non Marriott week in II 18 times and did nothing with it twice. We used 17 getaways and 4 AC’s.  My kids have been to 10 different countries and at least 3 times that in cities within the US.  We have taken 3 cruises. The tools are all there to vacation the way you want  but YOU got to make it work.   So if someone asks me if I am happy, I just point to a 2015 resale purchase… my first addition since 1995.     

The final disclaimer I offer people seeking my opinion…. Past performance of my timeshare “happiness” is not an indicator of future success


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## bazzap (Mar 19, 2015)

A 1955 entry into timeshare would be truly impressive!
No competition there, I suspect?

"In 1955, I purchased HHI to go every year and a non-Marriott to trade every year."

Edited - Ah, I now see you spotted this yourself.


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## pedro47 (Mar 19, 2015)

Marriott did not enter into the timeshare industry until 1984 according to Marriott fact sheet.


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## l0410z (Mar 19, 2015)

bazzap said:


> A 1955 entry into timeshare would be truly impressive!
> No competition there, I suspect?
> 
> "In 1955, I purchased HHI to go every year and a non-Marriott to trade every year."
> ...



Yes I did catch it the error.  The reason for the error could have been because I spell poorly and type worse.... It could be that I am turning   60 very soon, know about a "surprise " party so the year 1955 is on my mind...it could be because I was trying to mislead.....two of the three reasons are true.

Btw, it should have been easy to trade given the little competition but the Marriott website still told me the week I wanted was unavailable.  I should have known what was to come.


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## m61376 (Mar 20, 2015)

I do wonder about the future survival of the timeshare model as the "computer generation" approaches their forties. They largely tend to be last minute planners and are accustomed to more instant gratification. Many have travelled far more than we did by their age. They are more globally oriented and favor the excitement of going to different places. So I think the next decade will be interesting; will Marriott be able to sell their product to, what is for many of us, our children's generation?

Although admittedly having kids shifts one's outlook, and even those who were thrilled to backpack and stay in hostels in their twenties begin to appreciate the space and resort amenities of the Marriott timeshares as they begin to have families of their own. But I feel the need to plan far in advance will be the biggest hurdle. How many of us have adult children who can't even think about, let alone commit to, what they might want to do a year in advance? I know my kids think I'm a little nuts when I ask if they want to join us next year, and won't commit to anything before 4 or 5 months out. I couldn't see either of them, or any of their friends, bothering to learn or utilize the system effectively.


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## rfc0001 (Mar 20, 2015)

m61376 said:


> I do wonder about the future survival of the timeshare model as the "computer generation" approaches their forties. They largely tend to be last minute planners and are accustomed to more instant gratification. Many have travelled far more than we did by their age. They are more globally oriented and favor the excitement of going to different places. So I think the next decade will be interesting; will Marriott be able to sell their product to, what is for many of us, our children's generation?
> 
> Although admittedly having kids shifts one's outlook, and even those who were thrilled to backpack and stay in hostels in their twenties begin to appreciate the space and resort amenities of the Marriott timeshares as they begin to have families of their own. But I feel the need to plan far in advance will be the biggest hurdle. How many of us have adult children who can't even think about, let alone commit to, what they might want to do a year in advance? I know my kids think I'm a little nuts when I ask if they want to join us next year, and won't commit to anything before 4 or 5 months out. I couldn't see either of them, or any of their friends, bothering to learn or utilize the system effectively.


I think you are spot on, but I think this is _why_ MVCI moved to points based system.  Unfortunately, they decided to make the transition more painful that it needed to be IMO.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 20, 2015)

m61376 said:


> I do wonder about the future survival of the timeshare model as the "computer generation" approaches their forties. They largely tend to be last minute planners and are accustomed to more instant gratification. Many have travelled far more than we did by their age. They are more globally oriented and favor the excitement of going to different places. So I think the next decade will be interesting; will Marriott be able to sell their product to, what is for many of us, our children's generation?
> 
> Although admittedly having kids shifts one's outlook, and even those who were thrilled to backpack and stay in hostels in their twenties begin to appreciate the space and resort amenities of the Marriott timeshares as they begin to have families of their own. But I feel the need to plan far in advance will be the biggest hurdle. How many of us have adult children who can't even think about, let alone commit to, what they might want to do a year in advance? I know my kids think I'm a little nuts when I ask if they want to join us next year, and won't commit to anything before 4 or 5 months out. I couldn't see either of them, or any of their friends, bothering to learn or utilize the system effectively.



I expect somebody to come up with the "timeshare hotel" concept. Just like a hotel, but with timeshare space, (and a high pricetag). Thonk of doing a cash booking of a Marriott timeshare, only that's the entire location, not just the leftovers...


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## SMHarman (Mar 20, 2015)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> I expect somebody to come up with the "timeshare hotel" concept. Just like a hotel, but with timeshare space, (and a high pricetag). Thonk of doing a cash booking of a Marriott timeshare, only that's the entire location, not just the leftovers...


The Condo Hotel already exists. 
The Cove at Atlantis 
The Trump downtown Manhattan. 

You own the unit. It is hotel inventory. 

You reserve when you want. 

When it is available to inventory you get 50% of ARPUA as income.


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## bogey21 (Mar 20, 2015)

My gripe with Marriott was that they materially changed the original Resale and Rental Programs and devalued MRP, all of which they extolled to entice me to buy (Sabal Palms, Harbour Club and Heritage Club all pre construction).  No doubt they had the legal authority to make these changes but by doing so they devalued what I originally bought.  

George


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## puckmanfl (Mar 20, 2015)

good morning...

with regards to the OP's opening remarks...When I first purchased in 2004 with the weeks model, I was able to snag good ressies valued at well above MF's.  The DC overlay was a great addition to be used in conjunction with my weeks.  

Now a Feb week at Mountainside costs 7K points, with MF's of $3250 for tose points.  You cangetthe same week on Redweek for $3000...

see my point!!!

The financial model was borderline in 2004 (for retail) stupid me...  now it's downright hideous.  With weeks I could resell at market value (much lower) Now you have added junk fees (spitefully created ) to destroy the ability to sell...

At least my product as a home resort.  No guarantees at all  with DC...


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## jimf41 (Mar 20, 2015)

Puck,
I never differentiated between resale or developer purchases. Are you saying you wouldn't recommend a friend to buy that $3000 resale on Redweek? If you are then that's exactly my point. You enjoy your ownership so why wouldn't you recommend it to someone else.

As to your initial purchase what do think someone who bought 10 years earlier than you thinks of it? Maybe that you were crazy to pay that much?


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## Beefnot (Mar 20, 2015)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> Now a Feb week at Mountainside costs 7K points, with MF's of $3250 for tose points. You cangetthe same week on Redweek for $3000...
> 
> see my point!!!


 


jimf41 said:


> Puck,
> I never differentiated between resale or developer purchases. Are you saying you wouldn't recommend a friend to buy that $3000 resale on Redweek?


 
I read this puckmanfl's to be speaking to rental rates relative to MFs (not to mention the acquisition cost of the points), not purchase price.  I would then understand his implication to be that he would indeed recommend someone rent rather than purchase for this very reason.  Hence the questionable financial model of DC trust points.


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## puckmanfl (Mar 20, 2015)

good evening

yes, I would recommend resale weeks WITHOUT DC... I believe dc has diminished II trading...  With DC, I can't even recommend resale week purchase, unless it is a week you plan to occupy every year!!1

I think the game is rigged...

I don't believe the people that have asked me about the product will spent the time I do on maximizing usage. I am obsessed witrh getting value...


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## JIMinNC (Mar 20, 2015)

puckmanfl said:


> good evening
> 
> yes, I would recommend resale weeks WITHOUT DC... I believe dc has diminished II trading...  With DC, I can't even recommend resale week purchase, unless it is a week you plan to occupy every year!!1
> 
> ...



puckmanfl,

I'm intrigued by your perspective on DC because my initial perspective on DC - albeit a very early and very limited perspective, as we are new owners - is just the opposite. I'm coming from a perspective gleaned from 16 years struggling with the RCI trading system with a previous ownership.

In contrast to RCI, the vacation options that I can see while shopping the DC system are nothing short of spectacular compared to the crap you can usually find online searching RCI. With RCI, the long, agonizing wait of an ongoing search is almost the only way to get anything of real value.

But with DC, had I wanted to, this AM I could have booked almost any week in January, February, or March 2016 at Maui Ocean Club in a 2BR OV. If I was flexible on date, I could even get an OF. Same goes for most of the other Hawaii Marriott resorts. This morning, I also could have also booked mid-March 2BR OV check-ins in either Aruba, St Thomas, or St Kitts. Never could do that in real time with RCI.

DC has allowed us to book a 4-night Columbus Day weekend 2015 stay in Hilton Head for only 650 Points at Harbour Point (a booking that would cost us almost $850 on Marriott.com). We couldn't even do long weekends with our previous week-based ownership in another system.

I guess if you've experienced a diminution of trading opportunity as a legacy weeks owner since the inventory was split into two buckets, I can understand your frustration. But as someone coming in from outside the Marriott system, I can definitely say I'm impressed with what I've seen so far. Hopefully, I'll still feel that way a few years down the road...


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## Beefnot (Mar 21, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> DC has allowed us to book a 4-night Columbus Day weekend 2015 stay in Hilton Head for only 650 Points at Harbour Point (a booking that would cost us almost $850 on Marriott.com). We couldn't even do long weekends with our previous week-based ownership in another system.



Fully loaded including the purchase price using a 10 or maybe 20 year amortization plus the underlying MF, there is still savings over Marriott rates, but the differential shrinks.  Also, if I am not mistaken, I believe one can also rent the dates from a points owner at 50 to 60 cents per point.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 21, 2015)

Beefnot said:


> Fully loaded including the purchase price using a 10 or maybe 20 year amortization plus the underlying MF, there is still savings over Marriott rates, but the differential shrinks.  Also, if I am not mistaken, I believe one can also rent the dates from a points owner at 50 to 60 cents per point.



But when you pay rack rate for cash, you have no obligation to pay anything else. It's a one-off transaction. With either a Legacy Week or DC points, you have a permanent bill, year after year, whether or not you want to use them or not. The closer you get to the same price, the less the incentive to buy the permanent obligation...


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 21, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> puckmanfl,
> 
> I'm intrigued by your perspective on DC because my initial perspective on DC - albeit a very early and very limited perspective, as we are new owners - is just the opposite. I'm coming from a perspective gleaned from 16 years struggling with the RCI trading system with a previous ownership.
> 
> ...



You can ration by availlabiity or ration by price. Weeks ration by availability, DC rations by price.

When you ration by availability, if you can get in first and get the product (any product) before other people, you can resell at a profit to those who want the product but were unable to get it.

When you ration by price, the more you are willing to pay, the more likely you are to get the product. But you _pay_ for the availability.

Example - Royal Palms. As Legacy Week you pay appoximately price for MF (slight tax variation for the different seasons). If you are able to reserve New Year's week, you can resell it (or swap it) for a lot more value than a mid May week. The MF fees are about the same. You can make a profit off of New year's week, as a Legacy Week owner.

Royal Palms on DC points is different. New Year's week is 2725 points, Mid May is 1400 points. The New Year's week cost nearly twice as much as the mid May week in MFs in points. You can't resell the week and make a profit on either week. But if you want New Year's week, most likely you can get it - if you're willing to pay.


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## JIMinNC (Mar 21, 2015)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> You can ration by availlabiity or ration by price. Weeks ration by availability, DC rations by price.
> 
> When you ration by availability, if you can get in first and get the product (any product) before other people, you can resell at a profit to those who want the product but were unable to get it.
> 
> ...



Good analogy - rationing by availability vs. price. We've always been more interested in getting the availability we are looking for rather than getting the absolute best deal/lowest price. We obviously don't want to pay more than we have to - but flexibility, availability, and convenience have always been more important than getting the absolute lowest price. So we have been willing to pay a bit more to get those other things - which is why points (rationing by price) seems to fit our overall style better than traditional weeks trading (rationing by availability). Having said that, there will likely be a place in our "portfolio" in a couple of years for a "week to use every year" as a supplement to our points so we don't have to burn expensive points for that "every year" trip, but for traveling to different places, so far at least, I like what points seem to provide.


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## JIMinNC (Mar 21, 2015)

Beefnot said:


> Fully loaded including the purchase price using a 10 or maybe 20 year amortization plus the underlying MF, there is still savings over Marriott rates, but the differential shrinks.  Also, if I am not mistaken, I believe one can also rent the dates from a points owner at 50 to 60 cents per point.





Ralph Sir Edward said:


> But when you pay rack rate for cash, you have no obligation to pay anything else. It's a one-off transaction. With either a Legacy Week or DC points, you have a permanent bill, year after year, whether or not you want to use them or not. The closer you get to the same price, the less the incentive to buy the permanent obligation...



True on both counts. My example was a simplistic example, but from a purely economic standpoint as you point out, a fully-loaded comparison must include amortization of the upfront costs. 

But this pure economic argument also ignores some less quantifiable benefits to ownership that many have pointed out here - forced planning, paying with sunk costs that become easier to factor into family budgets, etc. Probably best summarized by this past TUG post:
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1667332&postcount=23

And the "points rental" option Beefnot mentions is something we will do in the future to supplement our owned points and to eliminate the need to buy more expensive points - but - to be able to make that reservation ourselves, we would still need a DC Points account. Otherwise, we would have to rely on the original owner just making the rez for us and carrying it in his/her account and adding us as an allowed guest. I guess I just prefer to control our own reservations and would never really want to do that.


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## curbysplace (Mar 21, 2015)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> You can ration by availlabiity or ration by price. Weeks ration by availability, DC rations by price.
> 
> When you ration by availability, if you can get in first and get the product (any product) before other people, you can resell at a profit to those who want the product but were unable to get it.
> 
> ...



Just curious, generally what does a Royal Palms New Year's week rent for?


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 21, 2015)

curbysplace said:


> Just curious, generally what does a Royal Palms New Year's week rent for?



Royal Palms is an early Marriott timeshare (no ROFR, no special Platinum Plus week for New Year's (Week 52))

Platinum Week MF - 2015 - $1,182 (three windows -  1-17, the summer window - June thru Labor Day, I forget the exact weeks, and 51-52)

DC points for New Year's - 2725 points. Most of the other weeks are less, but I believe President's day is as much.


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## WinniWoman (Mar 21, 2015)

I don't own Marriott, but- I don't know- I think I would recommend someone buy a timeshare after giving them all the pros and cons and considering their individual situation. I love having a timeshare!:whoopie:


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## KathyPet (Mar 21, 2015)

I agree that trying to plan a year in advance is a MAJOR hurdle especially for younger people.  When I ask my daughter a year in advance where and when she wants to,use one of our weeks she does look at me like I am nuts.     Younger people simply do not want to,schedule that far in advance for anything.
As for me I just think trying to get the best usage out of our weeks is a major PITA.  Is the flexibility there?  probably.  Do I want to spend hours of my time trying to determine the best way to use my weeks ?  Hell No!   Booking a vacation should not be this hard.


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## DaveNV (Mar 21, 2015)

With the exception of my brother, who got suckered into buying a Mexico timeshare he can't get rid of, I am the only person in my family or among my friends who owns a timeshare.  I have the most disposable income, I am the only regular traveler (even before I bought my first timeshare), and I am the family member other family members comes to for advice on how to solve a problem.

Does that make me more suited to own a timeshare?  Probably not.  But it does mean I'm probably in the best relative position to maximize the ownership. I have no regrets about the various timeshares I've owned over the years, but I've approached things from a totally resale perspective - buying resale at low or no cost, learning and using it to my maximum benefit, and giving away the timeshare when I felt it no longer suited my needs.  

I am down to only one timeshare remaining, which I've already arranged to give away next year after one last usage.  The next phase for me will be to rent timeshares from owners, so I can get the vacations I want without any long term ownership issues.  For me, it's the best of all worlds. I owe Tug a tremendous debt of gratitude for the timeshare education I've gained here. Without Tug none of this would have been possible, and it certainly wouldn't have been nearly as much fun.

Would I recommend others buy a timeshare?  Sure.  But only if they do their research ahead of time, so they know exactly what they're getting into.  If the only option is to get duped into buying by a developer sales weasel, then the answer is a resounding No.  That was the mistake my brother made, and he's regretted it ever since.

Dave


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## aberlin (Mar 21, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> I've never met a group of people who owned, used and loved a product and yet would never recommend that anyone else buy it. It's the strangest thing I've ever seen in consumer products. In the same breath they advise you not to buy they'll tell you that it's the best product in it's category.



It seems that many Marriott owners, including me, are conflicted about the properties. On the one hand, we really enjoy and look forward to using our Marriott Mountainside, but simultaneously recognize that Marriott is slowly tightening the noose around our necks by going to the points system. The result for us is increasing difficulty obtaining our timeshare in the January -March months to ski. One can buy points to move up to a higher recognition level and jump into the reservations market a month earlier than we can. We refuse to pay more money to buy points, thus we will slowly be left behind.


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## dundeeyank (Mar 21, 2015)

*Happy, but because I'm old and new*

I bought into Marriott when weeks were the norm.  I bought in a location that I enjoy, MFC, and use every other year.  I also bought enough so I could book 13 months in advance (2 weeks were required). I made a decision after a few years to by another week then later DP under the new system.  I basically decided that Marriott would be my "2nd home".. A home that I know will be kept up-to-date, clean and will meet my needs.  I also know from owning 2 homes at one time that there are yearly costs for management and up-keep and finding renters.  I had a bad experience with that second home and decided  I would find a better way.  I have much involved in front end costs and the yearly fees are a bit of a bother but it works for the wife and myself.  I have taken tours (Israel next month), stayed at home resort (every other year), enjoyed Hilton Head Grand Ocean each fall. Have not gone outside the Marriott system because, so far, I haven't seen the need.  
Do I recommend to others? Well I talk to other about the possibilities but I also talk about the end costs.  I am nearing retirement (wife says I can retire in 5 years or so) and am looking at spending more time using my weeks and points.  I am looking at buying resale in the future but the costs of yearly maintenance fees is something I want to keep under control. 
Bottom line, yes we are a strange bunch of folks.  Generally happy but strange.


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## puckmanfl (Mar 21, 2015)

good morning

Ralph...

I  think DC availabilty is great.  As an ADJUNCT to my legacy weeks, it is great as well.  I am just concerned about the cost of DC as a stand alone product.  I know with DC you can get nice stuff at MOC however you can getthe same availabity on Marriott.com  lets assume you can get a week at MOC for 5000 DC points, which cost $60K with MF's of $2300 ($0.475/pt).  You can probably go on redweek and get it for $3000 just $700 over MF's.

My legacy DC points came at about a $5.50 pt with my MF's of $0.35/pt)  so the model is a little better but not perfect.  I wish I knew about resale at the time

Resale now is still good for both legacy weeks or DC points, but you can;t get the features of both unless you purchase hybrid..


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## JIMinNC (Mar 21, 2015)

puckmanfl said:


> I am just concerned about the cost of DC as a stand alone product.  I know with DC you can get nice stuff at MOC however you can getthe same availabity on Marriott.com



But on Marriott.com even 1BR OV/OF units at MOC can book for $650-$800/nt in prime Feb/Mar and summer season. That's $4500 to $5600 /wk before taxes. Never even been able to see 2BR units consistently so not sure what they go for - who knows $800 to $900 or more?



puckmanfl said:


> lets assume you can get a week at MOC for 5000 DC points, which cost $60K with MF's of $2300 ($0.475/pt).



No question "list price" DC Points are expensive and have questionable economics - just like any other developer timeshare purchase. But resale points or hybrids could easily drop that cost to $30,000 to $35,000 - still not cheap by any means, but a significantly smaller hill to climb than $60K.



puckmanfl said:


> You can probably go on redweek and get it for $3000 just $700 over MF's.




No question Redweek prices are good and call into question the advisability of any timeshare ownership. But it should be cheaper - any person-to-person transaction between 2 individuals who do not know each other has inherent risks versus a transaction using a company as an intermediary - just like it generally costs less to buy a used car direct from an individual than from a major dealer. Doesn't stop a lot of people from buying from a dealer for whatever extra confidence/security that provides.

As Ralph mentioned, with Points, you are paying a higher price for the added flexibility and what I hope will continue to be good availability. So for vacation needs that change from year to year, I think points look pretty good - not cheap- but you are paying for the expanded options. But if and when we decide there is a yearly trip we want to make - fall or spring in Hilton Head for example - no way I would burn 4000 DC Points every year (don't even have that many) for an OF 2BR Grande Ocean. I would buy a Gold resale GO for $8-10K or so and pay less than $1300/year for that week. The fact it could never be converted to points would be irrelevant.


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## m61376 (Mar 21, 2015)

aberlin said:


> It seems that many Marriott owners, including me, are conflicted about the properties. On the one hand, we really enjoy and look forward to using our Marriott Mountainside, but simultaneously recognize that Marriott is slowly tightening the noose around our necks by going to the points system. The result for us is increasing difficulty obtaining our timeshare in the January -March months to ski. One can buy points to move up to a higher recognition level and jump into the reservations market a month earlier than we can. We refuse to pay more money to buy points, thus we will slowly be left behind.



Just so you're clear- you are not competing with points owners for the same pool of reservations. Reservations available to point users are proportionate to the property ownership in the Trust+legacy owners who converted their use for that year to DC points, supposedly fairly apportioned to each reservation period. So DC users aren't getting an advance chance to make their reservations over you.


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## jimf41 (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm not responsible for the quote your referred to in your post.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 21, 2015)

jimf41 said:


> I'm not responsible for the quote your referred to in your post.



All set.


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## puckmanfl (Mar 21, 2015)

good evening

I did the math....

I looked up the MOC ressies... you can get 2 bedroom OV... for 6700 pts, mid feb for 7 days...

These points would cost about 80K today...  MF's about $3000

let's assume those units rent for $1000 night...

let's do a 20 year comparison... forget about investment opportunity lost onthe 80K and assume MF's don't rise (yeah right)  so in 20 years  you pay $140K for these points...  it would take 20 years of marriott.com rentals $7000/yr to hit break even point...

My Legacy week at GV 3 bedroom cost $20K..I haver trade thru II for MOC summer and winger.. MF's now $1500..  I have just hit the break even point on my purchase at yhe 11 year mark...

This is using every trick in the book and completelyt obsessed.  I don't believe the average user will be as compulsive as I am..  I drank the kool aid in 2004  and have made it work.  I think it will nbe so much harder to make it work in 2015...  I bet the 1994 purchasers made it break even earlier than I did...

In summary, I made my purchase work  but I can't recommend a new purchase of DC points...


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## Fasttr (Mar 21, 2015)

puckmanfl said:


> good evening
> 
> I did the math....
> 
> ...



Actually, your $80K is likely a bit overstated as buying that quantity of points, I'm sure you can get them for nearer to $10/point quite easily.  They seem to discount pretty heavily once you are purchasing a 3500 or higher point package.    

That said, IMO, it's a much more viable option if you only purchased a base interest of 1500 points ($18K Retail or $10K resale in upfront costs vs. your $80K) and rented the additional 5200 points needed for your example.  Break even is much quicker using that approach as the delta between rental point costs and MF's is nearly identical.  That's one of the beauty's of the new system, the ability to rent as many points as you want/need for no additional upfront costs.


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## puckmanfl (Mar 21, 2015)

good evening

FASTR

I agree 1000%.. a small point purchase and renting is 1000% the way to go...

That is the now the equivalent of the old resale of legacy weeks!!!!~

well said!!!


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## JIMinNC (Mar 22, 2015)

No question DC Points economics are shaky for owners at the rack Marriott rates. While I'm bullish on the DC program, I'm not bullish on paying rack rates.

In addition to the discounts Fasttr mentions, a hybrid purchase or resale points can get you close to $7/point. 

We did a hybrid to start with because adding the resale week to a 1750 point purchase added 1625 points for only about $2/pt ($3300) and gives us a larger bank of currency to play with. We'll play around with some point rentals to supplement our owned points. If rental works for us, we may eventually sell the week. It's a Silver week, so we get hurt by the higher maintenance fee cost per point. Short run, I'm willing to suffer that higher cost for a while, but it may not be something we want to do long term if rental works for us. We'll also likely supplement the points in a year or two with a resale Marriott week or two to use primarily at a home resort.


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## puckmanfl (Mar 22, 2015)

good morning

Yes, it's way better with rental points or hybrid package...!!!

Way to go Jim...


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## m61376 (Mar 22, 2015)

Interesting thread. I actually have recommended buying to friends, but only resale weeks under certain circumstances. We bought Aruba resale weeks before the market really crashed; while our prices were rock bottom at the time we purchased, they are half the price today. True, MF's have gone up, but Aruba rentals on Marriott.com go for one of the highest in the system, matched perhaps only by Maui. A 2BR February week, for ex. - non- holiday- will run in excess of 6k with taxes last time I looked. So even with MF in the 1600 area, for someone frequently traveling to Aruba during Plat. Season at today's prices the break even point, as compared to Marriott direct rentals, is about 3 years. Renting on Redweek would take about twice that. Not sure what the summer 3 BR units rent for on Marriott.com (haven't seen one available), but an2BR plus a studio rent for a pretty penny. Some lucky winner just bought a gold 3 BR on EBay for a super low 9k- even with MF's you're talking a 3 year break even point

I have a couple of friends who have been repeatedly renting there, and have suggested that they consider purchasing. However, neither has been comfortable enough with the machinations of the resale market to take the plunge, so while I feel the value is there under certain circumstances, there's still a lot to be said for the security of buying direct for many people. 

But the OP is right- Tuggers are a curious group. How many of us have listened incredulously as happy purchasers talk about buying more points? Paying $12 per point doesn't make sense to me under any circumstance ( even if using for Aruba weeks, which because of their relatively low point allocation compared to dollar cost of renting on Marriott.com are perhaps the best, if not one of the best, dollar value for use of points). Yet renting points is a frequent recommendation, and the ability to rent is partially fueled by point purchases.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 22, 2015)

puckmanfl said:


> good evening
> 
> I did the math....
> 
> ...



Did you include your II fees? both for II itself, plus the cost of depositing and trading? They count just like the maintenance fees...


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## marty77 (Mar 22, 2015)

*Think About This Way*

Think about it this way - if a particular car model cost $40,000 at the new car dealer, and it was worth $15,000 before you go 3 miles; yet anyone could buy a "used" one from Hertz or Avis with 0 miles in perfect condition for $5,000 - would you recommend a trip to the new car dealership??  

We all love timeshares, that's why we're here.  What we strongly advocate, however, is don't buy a NEW one.  

For a second point, timeshares require 7 days only in most cases, a long time-planning horizon, fees paid up front, no checking out with a refund for unused nights if the weather is terrible, and a lot of other hassles (in some people's mind these are hassles).  If we know the person seeking a recommendation doesn't fit the mold or we can figure it out through questioning them, of course we don't recommend it but still love it because it works for us.  No different than loving your old Jaguar but not recommending it to those who can't do their own work or have the cash or patience for lots of maintenance.  

I think the entire premise, while illogical the way it is worded in this thread, is in fact quite logical.  We don't want to see others get fed up or overspend or deal with a frustrating learning curve.  If they can buy for a few dollars, and have the patience, and understand the commitment is like having a pet, then I'm sure we all advise "Go For It"!


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## Coach Boon (Mar 23, 2015)

@Beachtime makes some good points. We really have 2 discussions here, one about Marriott TC's and one in general about TC's.

I'm not a Marriott owner. In fact, we took over a timeshare from my wife's parents. We do mostly exchanges and since there are only and were only MF's involved and quite low, the cost is very good. So the value comes into play.

However, I would never recommend anyone to buy one unless it's on the "2nd hand" market and that they go in with their eyes wide open. People today don't travel like they did in my parents days - which most of us here have experienced.

Now you have a cruise industry, all inclusives, easy to take tours of just about any country you can think about and not just the standard tours either - ecotours, hiking tours etc... And given their competitive costs, you often can do better than paying medium to high annual maintenance fees let alone even purchase retail.

So with new competition and changes in how we travel, it's really no wonder why many of us don't recommend ownership. It doesn't mean we don't like owning, but there's lots of choice out there now.


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## l0410z (Mar 23, 2015)

Coach Boon said:


> People today don't travel like they did in my parents days - which most of us here have experienced.
> 
> Now you have a cruise industry, all inclusives, easy to take tours of just about any country you can think about and not just the standard tours either - ecotours, hiking tours etc... And given their competitive costs, you often can do better than paying medium to high annual maintenance fees let alone even purchase retail.
> 
> So with new competition and changes in how we travel, it's really no wonder why many of us don't recommend ownership. It doesn't mean we don't like owning, but there's lots of choice out there now.



The exchange to the MR program was the vehicle to get outside the Marriott timeshare space into the rest of the world.  Vacation packages provided a lot more value than they currently do.  The MR program has  decreased in value but it still doesn't get you the freedom of choice in vacation you mentioned above. 

The adage "the more things change the more they stay the same" even applies for timeshares.  The promise of real flexibility  has not been delivered on and it is not cost effective to Marriott to do so.  

Fixed week wasn't flexible because you had to go to the same week every year. Floating was meant to fix that.  Floating while flexible, doesn't fit the way people travel now.  DC points was meant to fix that.  Right off the MVCI website  DC Points  - "flexible "vacation currency" that can be used each year toward your choice of timeshare vacations"  A nice advertisement but the execution of the program isn't set up for it to work for the masses.   Even if it did, it doesn't offer the freedom of choice you mentioned above. 

So if happiness is flexibility and  freedom of choice than the only way to get there is the only true vacation currency .... cash.    
  -  Buy a marriott  resale fixed or floating in a location and during a season that allows you to rent for some multiple greater than 1.5 of rental $ to MF $.  My Monarch gets me $1.8 to $2 per MF $.  I know many other HHI properties, Aruba and other locations/seasons can get higher.  This is where cost of resale week needs to be factored in.    BTW this type of week during a high rental season also gets good trade value into II. 
 - You can get added benefits if you can find a way to get into the DC Program.  Find the least expensive way with the least amount of points.  If you can do this, your high rental dollars turn into higher DC points.  (example Monarch is 1230 MF,  my Ocean unit get 3525 DC points. This year if I turned rental $'s to DC points at .55 cents per point, I would get about 1000 points more than going directly to DC points would provide. 
- More of a nice to have... like the location you buy and make sure it meets your needs  so if in any given year all else fails you will still enjoy the vacation.

This is not a one size fits all.  There are too many moving parts (thanks to whoever posted this in this discussion earlier). Rental of my unit  has become a part of my strategy.


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## Kel (Mar 23, 2015)

I agree.  We love our Marriott Timeshare and we don't recommend anyone purchase a timeshare without checking out TUG.  We bought a Desert Springs II week from Marriott in 1996.  We always lock it off and exchange each week for another Marriott or non-Marriott.  And, we usually buy 2 to 4 II Getaways each year.  It is still extremely economical to own our timeshare.  

With maintenance, taxes, lockoff fee, II membership and exchange fees we are at $122 a night for our timeshare.  Best Western and Days Inn are sometimes more that.  I like that we will be staying in a one bedroom oceanfront unit at the Marriott Kauai Beach this summer for $122 a night.  Rack rate for the same week and same type unit is $459 per night plus tax.  Love it.  

Marriott's Destination Program is useless for our week and too expensive to buy into.  We will continue using our week as we always have and fill in with some Getaways.


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## puckmanfl (Apr 3, 2015)

good morning...

My analogy FWIW....

I love being an Emergency Physician....

Not sure I would recommend a career in Medicine to my friends and family.  Of course, my youngest cash drain wants to follow in my footsteps !!!!


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## bogey21 (Apr 3, 2015)

l0410z said:


> Fixed week wasn't flexible because you had to go to the same week every year. *Floating was meant to fix that*.  Floating while flexible, doesn't fit the way people travel now.  *DC points was meant to fix that* ......



The "fixes" were primarily to enhance Marriott's bottom line.  If they also improved things for some Owners, great.

George


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## JIMinNC (Apr 3, 2015)

bogey21 said:


> The "fixes" were primarily to enhance Marriott's bottom line.  If they also improved things for some Owners, great.
> 
> George



The changes enhance Marriott's bottom line only because the new products are what current buyers want. The markets for the old fixed week/fixed unit timeshare product were static or declining, and the advent of flexible points systems had even made traditional floating time less appealing for today's consumers' travel needs. While some people still prefer traditional fixed weeks - that is not where the majority of the marketplace of potential buyers is today.

Companies have to change and adapt their products to a changing marketplace as consumer tastes change or they will cease to be relevant (e.g.- see Kodak for a prime example).


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## tschwa2 (Apr 3, 2015)

I am sure that there are platinum owners at places like Newport Coast Villas that wish that Marriott sold fixed weeks in July (not just 4th of July).

I own a combo of fixed weeks and float weeks.  While float gives you some extra flexibility the price may be competing with x number of owners for the same prime weeks.  Some systems make you prepay your MF's before you can reserve a float week.  There is something nice about having a prime week (that you know you can rent or exchange if you can't use one year) pre reserved without worrying about it each year.


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## JIMinNC (Apr 3, 2015)

tschwa2 said:


> I am sure that there are platinum owners at places like Newport Coast Villas that wish that Marriott sold fixed weeks in July (not just 4th of July).
> 
> I own a combo of fixed weeks and float weeks.  While float gives you some extra flexibility the price may be competing with x number of owners for the same prime weeks.  Some systems make you prepay your MF's before you can reserve a float week.  There is something nice about having a prime week (that you know you can rent or exchange if you can't use one year) pre reserved without worrying about it each year.



Fixed weeks certainly have clear advantages in some situations. My point above was simply that the overall market has moved away from the fixed week model and the only path to growth for a company in that business is with more flexible products that meet the needs of a larger segment of the population.


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## bogey21 (Apr 3, 2015)

tschwa2 said:


> There is something nice about having a prime week (that you know you can rent or exchange if you can't use one year) pre reserved without worrying about it each year.



My thoughts exactly!

George


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## alexadeparis (Apr 3, 2015)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> My analogy FWIW....
> 
> ...



I agree. I could say the same about my profession. My only cash drain does NOT want to be an attorney based on what she has seen me go through. 

Returning to the topic, I think Puckman's analogy aptly describes exactly why most Marriott owners (or probably any timeshare owners) would not recommend a purchase to friends. Just as being a physician or attorney sounds glamorous, makes the general public see $$$ signs, and are the subject of many dramatized tv shows, the reality is something quite different and not something you would want someone you care about to enter into lightly. The schooling is intense and once you pass that hurdle, there is a lot of grief, stress, pressure, etc. Bottom line, it's not for everyone. 

Similarly, Once you get past the  glamourous glossy timeshare brochures that come with a purchase, you must learn how to properly use the timeshare within the system rules or suffer the consequences by not getting the reservation you want. Some people just aren't willing to do that. Too much work for the reward for some. Then the average purchaser ends up with something they spent $30k for, don't know how to use, and can't be bothered learning. Yes Tuggers know how but there are very few of us in the general timeshare owner population.  

I have a friend that has bought many retail timeshares at full boat and still can barely get any reservations. No matter how many times I direct him here, or at least to his system rules, he just can't be bothered to get into the details. I have never asked, but knowing what he owns, he has spent over $100k. He is a great friend, but I would never recommend a person like him to buy a timeshare because he will never treat it as a hobby, as I do, to work to maximize the use out of it. It's just not worth losing a friendship over when it isn't as easy to use as I make it appear to be, after I recommend that he buy into it. Are you crazy!?!? NO WAY.


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## dundeeyank (Apr 3, 2015)

*Yes we are happy but strange... but maybe not so strange*

Vacation Club Website now show points cost $12.48 each... $18,720 for 1500 points. Pretty sure the last price was $12.24, that's what I show in my spreadsheets. Of course there is the yearly maintenance fees of approx. $713 or about 3.8% and the annual Club dues of $175. Club dues are the same no matter the amount of Points you have. The Maintenance fees are points based... 3000 points =about $1473 or about $0.475 per point. Yes the cost of Maintenance fees go up every year but I expect that.
We with weeks and early DPoints are happy.  With the current cost of points and maintenance fees that you don't know how they are being used, I'm tempted to just rent when I can... 
Using my weeks at my home resort is by far the best and most effective way to keep value...  If I were to recommend to folks new to Marriott I'd say, "Buy a week on resale (get a good deal) at a Resort you want to stay year after year, that's where the value is."


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## jimf41 (Apr 3, 2015)

So Puck and Alex both have high paying jobs doing what they like but don't want their friends or family to follow in their profession. So what do you guys recommend for a line of work?

I don't know of any field of employment that doesn't get to be a drag after a while. Owning a Marriott TS hasn't gotten boring yet for me. I would definitely recommend it to my friends. Sure you have to explain the pitfalls as well as the good parts but the good parts far outweigh the pitfalls or we'd all sell and the TS companies would have to reinvent another way to get your travel $$$.


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## puckmanfl (Apr 3, 2015)

good evening...

Jim...

let me put in perspective for you...

I graduated form the Univ of Penn in 1980...Total fees including room and board about $10K year.  Then to Mt Sinai School of Medicine from 1980-1884 for about the same cost.  So after 8 years, I had a bill of about $80K.  I worked 14 years as the "dog and beer" vendor at Yankee Shea Stadium to pay a lot of this.  My parents (civil employees NYC) paid about $20K as well. and I came out in 1984 with about $40K in debt.  I was also blessed to be able to go to Medical school at the age of 20 (yes college at 16).  1984-1990 2 residencies IM/EM working at low level (for physician) wages.  But working at good stuff since 1990...  Easily able to pay off debt, buy house and start family...So I was able to chose my specialty and practice based on passion not $$$

Now even state colleges go for $20K and privates almost $60 and ditto for med school.  SO many graduates are coming out at age 26-27 with $200K in debt.  Then 5 years of post grad training at low wages with debt compounding interest.  They current grads also lose about 10 years of prime working career building years..

I love medicine.  To this day, I love going to work. I found my calling EM.  Unfortunately, due to finances many docs are choosing the wrong specialties.  Medicine has become more of a business and less of an art and passion.  My daughter wants to become a neonatologist.  I have showed her what I do, but this was her choice!!!  i did not encourage or discourage.  She is fortunate in that dad can afford her education but many aren't so lucky.  If she is able to enter med school she will not graduate with horrendous debt.  But to a new grad, coming out with $250K debt, trying to start family and buy house in era where physicians incomes are declining and hours are increasing is not for everyone!!!  About 30% of physician time is now spent on paper work (EMR, insurance) clinical decisions are also more and more based on $$$ not evidence..

I would only recommend medicine to those that truly have a calling and that can become educated without massive crushing debt.  On a severely sad note  physician suicide, substance abuse and divorce is at an all time high..

What I recommend is for all young people is to follow their passion and get educated in the most cost effective manner possible.  If you love your job, you never work a day in your life!!!!

This is why , although I LOVE Emergency Medicine, I can't endorse it for everyone...Just as I love timeshares, but I can't endorse for everyone... I will let the other poster deal with the legal profession


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## alexadeparis (Apr 4, 2015)

puckmanfl said:


> Now even state colleges go for $20K and privates almost $60 and ditto for med school.  SO many graduates are coming out at age 26-27 with $200K in debt.  Then 5 years of post grad training at low wages with debt compounding interest.  . . . . Snip . . . .
> 
> Unfortunately, due to finances many docs are choosing the wrong specialties.  Medicine has become more of a business and less of an art and passion.
> . . . . Snip . . . .
> ...



Alexa here. All the points puck made above, as I deeply edited them, also apply to the legal profession. This is why we need education paid for like in other countries. I really do not care for my profession all that much, but it is now my chosen profession and my education was too expensive to waste. My only escape is the nice vacations I plan for myself as often as possible. I would recommend Any job that makes you the happiest and still allows you to live the life you want. I have a colleague that only works part time, he lives very frugally and takes just enough cases to pay the bills. It works for him. My dream is to do the same someday. Today is not that day. 

However, back on topic, I think the bottom line is whenever you make a large purchase, there is a buyer's remorse that sets in when you find out what it takes to use and enjoy it properly; whether it is a watch, a car, a boat, a timeshare or some other thing. And if you are willing to put up with the hassles that come with it, perfect. Unfortunately, Marriott and others sell the dream of a stress free booking of all the in-demand weeks at the best resorts, and trading in exchange companies for weeks 7, 51 and 52. We know from being on this forum that is not the reality. That's why I would never tell my friends to buy a timeshare unless I knew they shared some of my personality traits, meaning I thought they could handle the hassles of making the timeshares actually work for them.

Yes, the good of timeshares outweighs the bad for me. The day it doesn't I will give them away. Yes, people love coming on vacation with my family because I use timeshares to have awesome vacations. However, the ins and out have taken me 7 years to learn and I am still learning. That's too much to ask of the average person in my opinion. They are probably better off renting unless they want to put in the work.

So here is a new analogy for you. I guess timeshares are kind of like a (polygamous) marriage, having one (or more) timeshares/spouses is great, but to make the marriage/vacation work, you have to give it your time and attention and it has to hold your interest. Having one can be very fulfilling and even life changing, but it doesn't work without your commitment to making it work. Your spouse/timeshare has some wonderful qualities and some horrible quirks, but overall they make your life better rather than worse. If you just want a hassle free quickie (or vacation) with no strings you are better off renting (using a "professional") but the experience may leave you hollow because you have no certainty of knowing when or where your next quickie/vacation will be. On the other hand, if you can't make it work anymore, (too many rule changes in the timeshare system) it is also hard to divorce yourself from a timeshare.


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## DEScottzz (Apr 4, 2015)

Hello TUG Users!

I bought 2500 Marriott VC points in January, after sitting through a very slick sales presentation at the Newport Coast location. The woman who sold us said her objective was to prove that she could save us money on our vacation travel. Her argument was based on an assumption that travel bought for cash would be subject to 7% inflation, while travel through the Marriott plan would only be subject to 3% inflation. She also included no lost opportunity cost for the $26,000 or so we paid for the points.

I never bought that argument, but I still bought the points. Why?

It's because my wife and I have never been good at planning vacations, and most years have gone by without a real vacation (other than visiting family, which often has too much drama to be called a vacation).

We decided that we needed a strong push to actually take the vacations that we deserve, need, and can afford. So far I've planned two trips that we wouldn't have taken if we hadn't made the purchase.      

I wish I had known about TUG and the possibility of buying some resale points instead of paying retail. Maybe that would have saved us $10,000 or so. But I don't regret having a new use-it-or-lose-it commitment to taking vacations.

By the way, one aspect of the points model that I really like is that I can stay less than a week, and I can get mid-week points for low prices compared to the Friday-Saturday rates. 

I'm sure I'll be popping up in the forums from time to time with a stupid question. Please be gentle!

Best regards,

Dave


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## MauiSunset (Apr 4, 2015)

We have been owners of Marriott weeks for 15 years now and am enrolled in the points program - I have no complaints against Marriott.

Sure Marriott might have done this or that a little better but compared to other timeshares we own Marriott is #1 in our book.

We don't own Disney and maybe they might be #1 instead, but I don't know of other timeshare groups that have treated us with respect as much as Marriott has.

I have no problems recommending Marriott to other folks we bump into - and with the points program even Millenials can use Marriott for a few days around a weekend at the last moment.


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## aberlin (Apr 4, 2015)

We didn't like the points system when it was unveiled. In fact, the first year a sales person describing the program did not tell us that converting from ownership to points would not give us enough points to obtain the very timeshare that we purchased. It was only when he left the room for some other task that I picked up his book on his desk and read this information. Was he deliberately allowing me to see reality? I don't know, but we were turned off and continue to be turned off by Marriott's conversion to the points system. Of course, no one at Marriott will listen.

We went through another presentation at Park City in January, where the salesperson and the two of us decided points were not for us at the amount Marriott is charging for them. But the deal going down, as I see it, is that it will be harder for us to obtain our Marriott Mountainside timeshare in the years ahead when we want it in the ski season.


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