# Marriott, Int'l BONVOY Changes Effective 9/14/19 [Merged]



## MULTIZ321 (Aug 15, 2019)

Marriott Rolling Out Changes That Are Likely To Hurt Many Members.


https://pizzainmotion.boardingarea....changes-that-are-likely-to-hurt-many-members/


Richard


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## SueDonJ (Aug 15, 2019)

Thank you, Richard!

FlyerTalk is usually first to dissect Bonvoy changes and today is no exception, there are already a few threads on their Marriott/Marriott Bonvoy forum. No doubt TUGgers will catch up soon!


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## mjm1 (Aug 15, 2019)

Thank you Richard. 

We knew changes were coming and I guess we shouldn’t be surprised that some of the changes will negatively impact members. I think I am most disappointed with the changes to the Points Advance program and the way the 5th night free program will work. I can understand the off peak and peak season changes, but the changes monthly seem to be very onerous for both Marriott and members.

I am sure this is going to make a number of up-to-now loyal members rethink their loyalty. We have already been using the Chase Sapphire Reserve and Chase Freedom cards for our spending.

Time will tell.

Best regards.

Mike


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 15, 2019)

As long as I get my one free night per year, I am good.  I plan to use it to get a lower airfare from Maui.  Sometimes it saves hundreds of dollars to book a hotel night and fly home a day later. 

I need to book my stay at Ritz Carlton on Maui soon.  Our trip is in February.  That particular night will not qualify for the free night.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 15, 2019)

These negative changes including draconian resort, parking, and cancellation fees make timeshares better economically compared to renting from the hotel.  Will keep the cards for the free nights but have moved spend to CSR points. When that dies, will move to cash back cards.  The days of generous loyalty points is dying so will use our points now to avoid future devaluations.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Aug 15, 2019)

So I wonder if every Friday and Saturday night will now be considered "Peak" and therefore now more expensive (in Reward points) to book like it is for those same nights at the Marriott Timeshare Resorts (using Destination Club Points).





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## klpca (Aug 15, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> These negative changes including draconian resort, parking, and cancellation fees make timeshares better economically compared to renting from the hotel.  Will keep the cards for the free nights but have moved spend to CSR points. When that dies, will move to cash back cards.  The days of generous loyalty points is dying so will use our points now to avoid future devaluations.


With devaluations becoming the norm, I am an "earn and burn" customer. Currently it is working for me to pay cash for flights and use the points for excursions and other extras. I wonder if we'll go back to writing checks someday, lol. 

At any rate, companies earn my loyalty by treating me right. I don't care how many points you throw at me, when you burn me in the customer service area, we're done.


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## CPNY (Aug 15, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> These negative changes including draconian resort, parking, and cancellation fees make timeshares better economically compared to renting from the hotel.  Will keep the cards for the free nights but have moved spend to CSR points. When that dies, will move to cash back cards.  The days of generous loyalty points is dying so will use our points now to avoid future devaluations.


When you become so big there is no need to be competitive. So why give away the house? Acquisitions are rarely good for the consumer. This is why people are iffy on the whole TS side of the business growing as well. This doesn’t surprise me in the lease bit. As a bonvoy gold elite, I’ve yet to see value in the program. I will most likely start to shift my business travel to Hilton or Hyatt.


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## klpca (Aug 15, 2019)

Btw, I read the article and think that I understand most of it, but what about previously booked 5 night travel package? We're already booked at a place over New Years, so I would expect points pricing will now be different. Do anyone know if existing reservations will remain untouched since the category level will be the same?


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## CPNY (Aug 15, 2019)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> So I wonder if every Friday and Saturday night will now be considered "Peak" and therefore now more expensive (in Reward points) to book like it is for those same nights at the Marriott Timeshare Resorts (using Destination Club Points).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You bring up a good point. It was rarely beneficial to convert DC points to bonvoy according to many (I know it was never worth it to convert star options to bonvoy) this will only devalue it further. I guess that’s one perk that’s truly not a selling point.


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## CPNY (Aug 15, 2019)

klpca said:


> Btw, I read the article and think that I understand most of it, but what about previously booked 5 night travel package? We're already booked at a place over New Years, so I would expect points pricing will now be different. Do anyone know if existing reservations will remain untouched since the category level will be the same?


I wouldn’t think so, if they charge more for a reservation already made please let me know. That’s the day I officially book Hilton for good. That would be terrible. But I would think it would be similar to anything else. If fares go up and you have a booking they don’t re adjust the fare to charge you more without you making any changes


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## jmhpsu93 (Aug 15, 2019)

CPNY said:


> I wouldn’t think so, if they charge more for a reservation already made please let me know. That’s the day I officially book Hilton for good. That would be terrible. But I would think it would be similar to anything else. If fares go up and you have a booking they don’t re adjust the fare to charge you more without you making any changes


That sounds like it would be a nightmare to administer.  You get a travel package in August 2019 for  XXX,XXX points and then you don't book it until May 2020 for travel in January 2021.  What the heck point in time do they use for what that XXX,XXX amount is?  Or would they just ask you to adjust when you make the ressie?  Good grief!


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## l0410z (Aug 15, 2019)

I have access to discounts across various hotel brands between my corporate and AAA discount.    I am lifetime platinum  and when I look at pricing, I look at proximity to where I am going and I include the value of breakfast and late checkout (if needed). To a lesser extent, I look at upgrade likelihood.  The constant devaluation of the points, points  hasn't been a motivating factor to me for a while.  I still like getting points  but it does not and will not change my behavior to make me any more or less loyal to Marriott.  Things change and you adjust.      It isn't personal and I do not take it that way.


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## CPNY (Aug 15, 2019)

l0410z said:


> I have access to discounts across various hotel brands between of my corporate and AAA discount.    I am lifetime platinum  and when I look at pricing, I look at proximity to where I am going and I include the value of breakfast and late checkout (if needed). To a lesser extent, I look at upgrade likelihood.  The constant devaluation of the points hasn't been a motivating factor to me for a while.  I still like getting points  but it does not and will not change my behavior to make me any more or less loyal to Marriott.  Things change and you adjust.      It isn't personal and I do not take it that way.


At least you get free breakfast. They took that away from Gold Elite


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 15, 2019)

CPNY said:


> When you become so big there is no need to be competitive. So why give away the house? Acquisitions are rarely good for the consumer. This is why people are iffy on the whole TS side of the business growing as well. This doesn’t surprise me in the lease bit. As a bonvoy gold elite, I’ve yet to see value in the program. I will most likely start to shift my business travel to Hilton or Hyatt.



IMO...Marriott Int'l has an inflated view of what they offer and it is clear that they have limited control over the properties, and even their own programs as evidenced by number of #Bonvoyed customer stories

There are still many hotel alternatives out there and Marriott is rapidly becoming non-competitive. With Hilton I am a Diamond and I get free breakfasts and upgrades at ALL resorts - no questions asked, no hassles. They don't give me draconian 60 day cancellation fees, and if there is cancellation it is for one night.  Will stay at Hyatt when I can and we are also elites and treated well. Just booked Intercontinental IHG with cancellation of 2 nights prior.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Aug 15, 2019)

klpca said:


> Btw, I read the article and think that I understand most of it, but what about previously booked 5 night travel package? We're already booked at a place over New Years, so I would expect points pricing will now be different. Do anyone know if existing reservations will remain untouched since the category level will be the same?





My guess is that I believe you are okay because it was booked prior to September 14th.....





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## CPNY (Aug 15, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMO...Marriott Int'l has an inflated view of what they offer and it is clear that they have limited control over the properties, and even their own programs as evidenced by number of #Bonvoyed customer stories
> 
> There are still many hotel alternatives out there and Marriott is rapidly becoming non-competitive. With Hilton I am a Diamond and I get free breakfasts and upgrades at ALL resorts - no questions asked, no hassles. They don't give me draconian 60 day cancellation fees, and if there is cancellation it is for one night.  Will stay at Hyatt when I can and we are also elites and treated well. Just booked Intercontinental IHG with cancellation of 2 nights prior.


Again, it’s customary with Marriott and most companies when they get so big to do this. What incentive do they have to treat their customer right? More bonvoyed stories coming soon. This is why the vistana people are waiting/concerned for negative changes to come. Granted, VAC and Hotels are separate but it’s still the same family of execs. I’m going to remain optimistic that these bonvoy changes don’t get worse. I’ll also remain optimistic their cousins at MVC don’t follow their lead either lol.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 15, 2019)

klpca said:


> With devaluations becoming the norm, I am an "earn and burn" customer. Currently it is working for me to pay cash for flights and use the points for excursions and other extras. I wonder if we'll go back to writing checks someday, lol.



For Marriott Int'l we have moved from _"Earn and Burn"_ to _"No Earn. Just Burn and Bonvoy."  
_
The $8000 cancellation threat from the property manager for using our hard earned SPG points put a very bad taste in my mouth and now I have no desire to deal with their inconsistent rules, and IT errors anymore.

Gold elite is worthless.


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## l0410z (Aug 15, 2019)

CPNY said:


> At least you get free breakfast. They took that away from Gold Elite


 
The new Platinum was the old gold.  The new gold wouldn't have gotten breakfast before the change.  If I did not get breakfast (or concierge access),it would be in a pure location/price decision process.


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## CPNY (Aug 15, 2019)

l0410z said:


> The new Platinum was the old gold.  The new gold wouldn't have gotten breakfast before the change.  If I did not breakfast (or concierge access), I would be in a pure location/price decision process.


I was SPG Gold. Now I’m Gold Elite Bonvoy, the old program was better.


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## pianodinosaur (Aug 15, 2019)

Unfortunately, most customer loyalty rewards programs have a fine print clause to effect that they may change the terms of their program at any time.  This has happened before with both Marriott Rewards and Starwood prior to the BonVoy merger.  I have been with HILTON Honors since  2001 and have experienced three major point devaluations since that time.  There were also point devaluations when United Airlines bought out Continental Airlines.  The email we received today from BonVoy was certainly discouraging despite the wording that attempts to disguise the devaluation as some kind of improvement.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 15, 2019)

CPNY said:


> I was SPG Gold. Now I’m Gold Elite Bonvoy, the old program was better.



So, what l0410z was likely speaking of, given this is the MVCI forum not SPG, is owners get certain benefits based on their ownership level in MVCI. So, if your level in mvci previously gave you gold, they gave you platinum once the levels changed, which meant you lost nothing.


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## Superchief (Aug 15, 2019)

Another casualty will be the devaluation of the Bonvoy Chase card certificate. You won't be able to use it for a peak award night. I may just cancel my card.


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## cubigbird (Aug 15, 2019)

Shall we rename the points “Bonvoy Pesos?”  When has point program changes ever been an “improvement?”  There are always winners and losers.  In these cases, the company is the winner, and the customer is the loser.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Aug 15, 2019)

pianodinosaur said:


> Unfortunately, most customer loyalty rewards programs have a fine print clause to effect that they may change the terms of their program at any time.  This has happened before with both Marriott Rewards and Starwood prior to the BonVoy merger.  I have been with HILTON Honors since  2001 and have experienced three major point devaluations since that time.  There were also point devaluations when United Airlines bought out Continental Airlines.  The email we received today from BonVoy was certainly discouraging despite the wording that attempts to disguise the devaluation as some kind of improvement.





..... and chances are very good that it will continue to be devalued over the next 20 years.


     





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## MULTIZ321 (Aug 15, 2019)

Marriott to Introduce Dynamic Pricing for Bonvoy Award Bookings.


https://skift.com/2019/08/15/marriott-to-introduce-dynamic-pricing-for-bonvoy-award-bookings/


Richard


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## BreakingAway (Aug 15, 2019)

This may not be new for others, but it was for us when the Marriott hotel we planned to stay  would not accept Bonvoy points for the dates we wanted to stay. The hotel would accept cash only. We reserved a Marriott with points a few  miles away, but it was annoying that a Marriott hotel could decide it would not accept Marriott currency (Bonvoy points) at all for the dates we wanted to reserve...only US dollars. Devaluation is one issue but opting out of accepting points at all is another  problematic issue altogether in my opinion.


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## Wei339 (Aug 16, 2019)

The Elite Marriott Rewards status bestowed upon me as a Executive MVC owner several years ago has been very rewarding and an added bonus to my ownership.  Previously, I was given Gold membership which basically gave me Lounge access and now with the new Bonvoy program I am able to keep that benefit with the new Platinum Elite.  The greatest benefit that I have enjoyed the most which was added after the purchase of the Starwood brand was the guaranteed late checkout at 4:00 pm.  Lately with the addition of the suites nights, the Marriott Bonvoy has been even more enjoyable. 

The change in the points redemption chart is worrisome but fortunately my travel times are flexible.  I use this same flexibility when I am booking with destination points at MVC usually in low season and Sun-Thurs during the week when I am not using my home resort.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 16, 2019)

Wei339 said:


> The Elite Marriott Rewards status bestowed upon me as a Executive MVC owner several years ago has been very rewarding and an added bonus to my ownership.  Previously, I was given Gold membership which basically gave me Lounge access and now with the new Bonvoy program I am able to keep that benefit with the new Platinum Elite.  The greatest benefit that I have enjoyed the most which was added after the purchase of the Starwood brand was the guaranteed late checkout at 4:00 pm.  Lately with the addition of the suites nights, the Marriott Bonvoy has been even more enjoyable.
> 
> The change in the points redemption chart is worrisome but fortunately my travel times are flexible.  I use this same flexibility when I am booking with destination points at MVC usually in low season and Sun-Thurs during the week when I am not using my home resort.



Yep, you hit the nail on the head. Those of us retired have a little bit easier time being likely more flexible. Those that are not, much more impact. As you say, the 4PM is killer. We absolutely love that feature as you almost get another day, you can go out and do stuff, come back, and even shower before leaving. Previously, when leaving at noon or earlier, you really lost that day,


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## bogey21 (Aug 16, 2019)

CPNY said:


> Again, it’s customary with Marriott and most companies when they get so big to do this.



So true.  It is why I walked away from Marriott and Southwest Airlines both of which were once "have to have" for me...

George


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## rsackett (Aug 16, 2019)

Any word on how 5 and 7 night travel packages will work?  They have always been tied to category not number of points, so are they unaffected?

Ray


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## CPNY (Aug 16, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> So, what l0410z was likely speaking of, given this is the MVCI forum not SPG, is owners get certain benefits based on their ownership level in MVCI. So, if your level in mvci previously gave you gold, they gave you platinum once the levels changed, which meant you lost nothing.


Considering MVC acquired VSE, my VSE ownership gave me then SPG gold before the acquisition. Which converted to Gold Elite in the then Marriott program. Marriott gold elite had better benefits than the bonvoy Gold elite. When the bonvoy program came out, My SPG Gold through ownership dropped down a level to Bonvoy Gold Elite, by dropped down I mean did not translate to the conversion from SPG Gold to the Platinum Elite in bonvoy.

All channels other than SPG/VSE ownership
SPG Gold —> gave Marriott Gold Elite post acquisition  —> gave Bonvoy Platinum Elite after bonvoy program.

SPG Gold through SPG/VSE ownership —> gave Marriott Gold Elite post acquisition —>gives Bonvoy Gold Elite now

So if ownership through MVC gave gold elite then and now gives you platinum. On the other side (VSE/SPG) that bump didn’t equate. Unless they gave the vistana 3/4/5 star elite owners platinum elite in bonvoy. That is a possibility and likely scenario I’m just not aware of.

Either way, I don’t get free breakfast anymore, and All I really care about is free breakfast lol. Who doesn’t love free food?!

After posting this I went on vistana and it said owners get Bonvoy Gold. Didn’t list any levels for elite members to get platinum. If that is the case then VSE owners got the screw, since Old Marriott Gold Elite was better than Bonvoy Gold Elite.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 16, 2019)

CPNY said:


> Either way, I don’t get free breakfast anymore, and All I really care about is free breakfast lol. Who doesn’t love free food?!
> 
> After posting this I went on vistana and it said owners get Bonvoy Gold. Didn’t list any levels for elite members to get platinum. If that is the case then VSE owners got the screw, since Old Marriott Gold Elite was better than Bonvoy Gold Elite.



I am not disagreeing with you. Was just saying this is an MVCI forum, so for us, we got a bump up and didn't lose anything. Maybe that will all change for you guys once the integration gets completed many years from now. 

I like the late checkout immensely! Also like the lounge access, we literally ate in the lunge for a week and never spent a dime eating out at one hotel, they had a lot of food. That actually paid the hotel bill, you could say the hotel was free. It was pretty nice to get a hotel benefit for a timeshare ownership.


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## BigMac (Aug 16, 2019)

rsackett said:


> Any word on how 5 and 7 night travel packages will work?  They have always been tied to category not number of points, so are they unaffected?
> 
> Ray


Here is your answer from the Frequent Miler. To sum it up they say that the new travel packages  - which are not that great - get slightly better if you can book at peak times. The question still remains can one book free nights during peak times.

https://frequentmiler.boardingarea.com/marriott-travel-packages-in-a-peak-world-good-value


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## jerseyfinn (Aug 16, 2019)

Agree that it's frustrating when any rewards program devalues points. But MVC timeshare and Marriott hotel programs are no different than airlines or any other business or  even govt that raise costs or decrease benefits in this regard. ( it's gonna take me years to say Bonvoy, so i'm unapologetic when I say 'Marriott' or "mail man" or "mankind" . )

We MVC folks gain a leg up as our TS stays count as nights in the hotel reward program ( it wasn't always so ). TS ownership is a long-term slog/commitment over years. I don't know the present demographic of what % of we MVC folks go back to late 90s and up to 2007 before the recession brings paradigm change to the character & function of MVC  versus % of owners who come in shortly before or after 2007 as well all transition to MVC life with DC points & enrolled weeks. In any case, THAT's the real Marriott TS Rubicon. Multiple week owners who have been at it for 15 years or more get hit by devaluation like everyone else, but those who enrolled their weeks gain additional ways to strategize. Indeed a contrast exists for more recent members who come in through the DC points door, but time and strategy still exist & function.

Marriott continues to digest this Starwood merger & this means changes. Some of the changes will not be positive, but they do indeed reflect the process of expansion and consolidation. All we can do as MVC owners & hotel reward members is to read the fine print and figure out how to strategize into the future. Every year you put behind you means more nights/stays that count towards different lifetime elite status levels that do accrue some value or at the very lest convenient perks. Like anything, additional size creates more complexity as folks bring different expectations as we're all pushed into the  Bonvoy future.  The Advance Points rewards program was an in-house perk/favor that grows more impossible for Marriott to reconcile as business size scales up. Can any brand continue to allow award reservations without enough award points to cover the stay? Answer is yes if you're short of points, but no if you've got the points but no award nights for the dates you want because some of the inventory is held as a courtesy. I'm not knocking those who take advantage of the Advance program, but I do suggest that size and complexity play a big part in some of these changes.

All I can say is to travel safe and enjoy the MVC product & above all, to read the fine print and learn to strategize.

We ourselves have changed our strategy since our early years of MVC ownership. We continue to link Marriott hotel stays sometimes doing a paid night before/after an MVC stay to gain a day or make the journey easier. This SOP the brought us gold and then platinum hotel status combined with our MVC stays. Today we're lifetime platinum/ titanium & this with senior discounts for us makes Marriott life rewarding even when they devalue points etc. It requires time and patience. Understandably frustrating at times if you're in your 40s/50s as life is indeed hectic & MVC travel a temporary escape valve from work pressures. But time flies with destination travel and the long game is about patience and strategy until one day you realize you've moved up the elites ladder as retirement is on your horizon. We too have had our Marriot moments, but overall we remember years of travels & hotel nights that cost money, but we do accrue status that remains functional and above all memories of those travels.

Just so you all don't think we're now old farts , we're 65 & 4 years retired and still figuring things MVC & travel out. Honestly speaking, we're more frustrated with how airlines have changed the flying paradigm. Marriott gave us a few bumps these past years. but we're on auto pilot with Marriott despite the changes.

Once again, travel safe.


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## CPNY (Aug 16, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> I am not disagreeing with you. Was just saying this is an MVCI forum, so for us, we got a bump up and didn't lose anything. Maybe that will all change for you guys once the integration gets completed many years from now.
> 
> I like the late checkout immensely! Also like the lounge access, we literally ate in the lunge for a week and never spent a dime eating out at one hotel, they had a lot of food. That actually paid the hotel bill, you could say the hotel was free. It was pretty nice to get a hotel benefit for a timeshare ownership.


Exactly, so to all of those who say “we lost nothing” is wrong. Sad reality that’s business. Nothing is like it used to be and these points programs are generally devalued constantly. It makes owning a points based vacation ownership scary. That too can be devalued. Maybe not overnight but it can absolutely go down little by little over the years.


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## cubigbird (Aug 16, 2019)

CPNY said:


> Exactly, so to all of those who say “we lost nothing” is wrong. Sad reality that’s business. Nothing is like it used to be and these points programs are generally devalued constantly. It makes owning a points based vacation ownership scary. That too can be devalued. Maybe not overnight but it can absolutely go down little by little over the years.


 
^^^^THIS^^^^

This is exactly why I will always own weeks at my ownerships.  I fear the same.  TS Points programs are ripe for the picking for devaluation.  When the first TS company does it, others will follow. No matter the devaluation, with weeks ownership, I still have my increments of weeks and nothing is lost.


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## CPNY (Aug 16, 2019)

cubigbird said:


> ^^^^THIS^^^^
> 
> This is exactly why I will always own weeks at my ownerships.  I fear the same.  TS Points programs are ripe for the picking for devaluation.  When the first TS company does it, others will follow. No matter the devaluation, with weeks ownership, I still have my increments of weeks and nothing is lost.


I agree it’s why I’ve tried to stay away. I own weeks/points with vistana in that we have star options assigned to our ownerships. Even here on Tug people grumble about “Orlando shouldn’t be worth as much as Hawaii” etc. in the CCRs is states “the management can change the star options designations at any time for any reason, points must always equal at least one week of use” etc. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if MVC decides to actually do that. Especially considering they are selling flex ownerships. Hopefully it doesn’t happen but it absolutely can and most likely will at some point.


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## controller1 (Aug 16, 2019)

CPNY said:


> After posting this I went on vistana and it said owners get Bonvoy Gold. Didn’t list any levels for elite members to get platinum. If that is the case then VSE owners got the screw, since Old Marriott Gold Elite was better than Bonvoy Gold Elite.



Vistana 5-Star Elite members receive Bonvoy Platinum status.  You can find this on your Vistana Dashboard under Ownership 101.  There is a section on Elite ownership.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 16, 2019)

CPNY said:


> Exactly, so to all of those who say “we lost nothing” is wrong. Sad reality that’s business. Nothing is like it used to be and these points programs are generally devalued constantly. It makes owning a points based vacation ownership scary. That too can be devalued. Maybe not overnight but it can absolutely go down little by little over the years.



We have a lot of non MVCI owners making various claims about MVCI lately, even though they are not familiar with MVCI ownerships.

Actually, I don't think they can be changed, I believe it's part of the legal doc, someone else can confirm where that wording is found, I believe they can change an individual weeks points assignment, as long as the total for the year does not change. Probably you need to open a new thread, all these discussions have been going off topic lately. 

But no, this is the MVCI forum, and, nothing did change for the members of this forum as far as levels. So, no, people in the MVCi forum are not wrong. The issue here is we have a lot of non MVCI owners coming in these forums now with the acquisition, though the programs are not merged yet and may never even be.

For me, I would presume answers found in the MVCI section are in general meant for MVCI owners. We don't know what does or does not apply to non MVCI owners. I know I do not. This is adding confusion.


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## controller1 (Aug 16, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> We have a lot of non MVCI owners making various claims about MVCI lately, even though they are not familiar with MVCI ownerships.
> 
> Actually, I don't think they can be changed, I believe it's part of the legal doc, someone else can confirm where that wording is found, I believe they can change an individual weeks points assignment, as long as the total for the year does not change. Probably you need to open a new thread, all these discussions have been going off topic lately.
> 
> ...



Hopefully, I did not make anything confusing as I did not make a claim about MVCI as I'm not an owner.  I was trying to correct something posted in this thread pertaining to Vistana.  Should I not post?


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 16, 2019)

So far Bonvoy Gold has been a zero. At the Ritz Kapalua we asked for upgrade - zilch. In fact the check-in rep blurted out, "Oh you are here on points..." aka "He** no we don't give upgrades to freeloaders on points no matter whether you are elite."...so much for "Aloha, welcome and thank you for your loyalty."

Requested early check-in, they did nothing. We asked for 2PM check-out which is a gold benefit, they hemmed and hawed and finally after reminding them we are gold elite they gave us 1 hour more to 11:00 AM. Wow...very disappointing. Doesn't seem worth the spend on our SPG Card to get Bonvoy Gold status.

#Bonvoyed Gold


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 16, 2019)

Question. My spouse has Gold Elite via his Bonvoy Brilliant Card. If I reserve a room in my name and add his name to the room, do we get Gold Elite benefits? I may forgo the spend to get Gold for me and just leverage his card if possible. Perhaps another property would give us 2PM check-out but I don't want to spend $30k again to find that we are treated like dirt.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 16, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Question. My spouse has Gold Elite via his Bonvoy Brilliant Card. If I reserve a room in my name and add his name to the room, do we get Gold Elite benefits? I may forgo the spend to get Gold for me and just leverage his card if possible. Perhaps another property would give us 2PM check-out but I don't want to spend $30k again to find that we are treated like dirt.



I am sorry you keep feeling you are being treated like dirt, my experience is the polar opposite. But no matter, that doesn't help you of course!

But here's something we did last week that was curious. My wife qualifies for the senior rate. So, for the first time we reserved the senior rate and used HER name on the ressie, but MY Bonvoy number. I thought this would kick out somewhere. We did indeed get our titanium benefits including the 1000 bonus points, and, we did get the senior rate too. What I don't know is if this is standard procedure or just blind luck. Seems like this is the essence of your question.

This was at a Townplace, and we did get 4PM checkout as advertised as always (for us). Even used the EV charger.

I'll add this was our first Townplace stay, and it was very good. I like the property since it includes a full fridge, a cooktop, etc. It's kind of a timeshare lockoff.


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## Mr. Vker (Aug 16, 2019)

BigMac said:


> Here is your answer from the Frequent Miler. To sum it up they say that the new travel packages  - which are not that great - get slightly better if you can book at peak times. The question still remains can one book free nights during peak times.
> 
> https://frequentmiler.boardingarea.com/marriott-travel-packages-in-a-peak-world-good-value



Has Marriott confirmed this? If so great, but it looks like the article assumes a TP cert will apply to peak nights too-without confirmation from Marriott.


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## Mr. Vker (Aug 16, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> I am sorry you keep feeling you are being treated like dirt, my experience is the polar opposite. But no matter, that doesn't help you of course!
> 
> But here's something we did last week that was curious. My wife qualifies for the senior rate. So, for the first time we reserved the senior rate and used HER name on the ressie, but MY Bonvoy number. I thought this would kick out somewhere. We did indeed get our titanium benefits including the 1000 bonus points, and, we did get the senior rate too. What I don't know is if this is standard procedure or just blind luck. Seems like this is the essence of your question.
> 
> ...



This is actually against the Terms of the program. The guests Bonvoy number must be on the reservation. I think you got lucky getting the benefits.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 16, 2019)

Mr. Vker said:


> Has Marriott confirmed this? If so great, but it looks like the article assumes a TP cert will apply to peak nights too-without confirmation from Marriott.



If indeed this is true, which does make sense as it's less calls and hassle for them, then packages can still have some decent value when used in peak season or week pricing. Will be interesting to see!


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## SueDonJ (Aug 16, 2019)

CPNY said:


> Exactly, so to all of those who say “we lost nothing” is wrong. Sad reality that’s business. Nothing is like it used to be and these points programs are generally devalued constantly. It makes owning a points based vacation ownership scary. That too can be devalued. Maybe not overnight but it can absolutely go down little by little over the years.



I think there's a vast difference between points-based timeshare products and points-based reward/loyalty programs. The timeshare companies are severely constrained by the legalities that prevent them from devaluing points-based-intervals in the same or similar manner to the multitude of ways that the hotel companies are legally able to devalue, and even cease, any affiliations with reward programs.

Think of it in terms of what you used to have available to you when Vistana was under the Starwood umbrella - your timeshare-related StarOptions did not work the same as your SPG points. That difference exists with Marriott products, too - the DC Points timeshare product (whether purchased or from enrolled Weeks) is definitely not subject to the same kind of devaluations that will happen with Bonvoy points.



Steve Fatula said:


> We have a lot of non MVCI owners making various claims about MVCI lately, even though they are not familiar with MVCI ownerships.
> 
> Actually, I don't think they can be changed, I believe it's part of the legal doc, someone else can confirm where that wording is found, I believe they can change an individual weeks points assignment, as long as the total for the year does not change. Probably you need to open a new thread, all these discussions have been going off topic lately.
> 
> ...



I agree. It is. The best we can do while all of us Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt people try to figure out what the MVW acquisition of Vistana and Hyatt might come to mean is, realize that the expertise of all existing owners is what will help us all eventually learn what we need to know to get the best usage out of what we each own.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 16, 2019)

I guess I'd just like to see Vistana discussion in the Vistana forum for the most part. And people visiting here to just understand that answers here are from MVCI owners and apply to MVCI, not Vistana necessarily. It doesn't make the answer wrong! But call me grumpy.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 16, 2019)

controller1 said:


> Hopefully, I did not make anything confusing as I did not make a claim about MVCI as I'm not an owner.  I was trying to correct something posted in this thread pertaining to Vistana.  Should I not post?



Speaking as a participant, please don't stop posting. The more information that all of us learn about each of the products/programs, the better able we'll be to dissect whatever integration is eventually offered by Marriott following the Vistana/Hyatt acquisition. 

*Speaking as a moderator,* I think all of the participants need to realize that some posts have been reported because they're causing confusion, they're not helpful, they're too biased, they're outright hostile, etc. We mods can't just ignore the reports and we're trying as best we can to keep the threads focused and the content contained. It's expected that there will be some cross-posting and some unfamiliar TUGgers participating in forums where you wouldn't usually find them. Patience is appreciated, anybody is welcome to contribute what they know or ask questions about what they don't.


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## pchung6 (Aug 16, 2019)

I have a question regarding my travel packages. I’ve 2 Category 5 7 night packages. Since I just received an exchange to Kingsland at big island in 2020, I need to cancel my existing reservation for Westin at big island. I plan to rebook in 2021, but the reservation for 2021 hasn’t opened yet. I wonder will the travel package subject to peak season or it will still go by hotel category?


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 16, 2019)

Although the MVC and Vistana programs remain separate. IMHO...This thread is about Bonvoy hotel points devaluation which affects both MVC and Vistana because the points have been consolidated by Marriott Int'l. It doesn't make sense to duplicate threads about a consolidated program.


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## CPNY (Aug 16, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> We have a lot of non MVCI owners making various claims about MVCI lately, even though they are not familiar with MVCI ownerships.
> 
> Actually, I don't think they can be changed, I believe it's part of the legal doc, someone else can confirm where that wording is found, I believe they can change an individual weeks points assignment, as long as the total for the year does not change. Probably you need to open a new thread, all these discussions have been going off topic lately.
> 
> ...


This was
Merged if I’m not mistaken. Not sure which forum this is in as I just see it on the main page in active threads.

Bonvoy affects us all since MVC and Hotels are separate, the same bonvoy program you are part of is the same other owners are part of.

Correct, I’m not familiar with DC points program as I am with the VSN program. So I can speak only to that and it states MVC reserves the right to change at any time the star options chart, including values etc.


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## CPNY (Aug 16, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> I think there's a vast difference between points-based timeshare products and points-based reward/loyalty programs. The timeshare companies are severely constrained by the legalities that prevent them from devaluing points-based-intervals in the same or similar manner to the multitude of ways that the hotel companies are legally able to devalue, and even cease, any affiliations with reward programs.
> 
> Think of it in terms of what you used to have available to you when Vistana was under the Starwood umbrella - your timeshare-related StarOptions did not work the same as your SPG points. That difference exists with Marriott products, too - the DC Points timeshare product (whether purchased or from enrolled Weeks) is definitely not subject to the same kind of devaluations that will happen with Bonvoy points.
> 
> ...


I agree the TS points are totally different than hotel points. True, I’m not familiar with DC. But I saw in Vistana CCR that they can adjust values of star options. Not sure if that’s the same with DC. I think that’s where the concern comes in regarding points in the Vacation Ownership world. 

Back to the bonvoy situation, I think everyone has had issues in some form or another. I actually don’t mind the peak and off peak valuations. I tend to travel off peak times. If DC isn’t subject to the same types of devaluations then that’s a good thing! 

Also, I saw this was merged. I know there was a thread in the vistana forum. I thought thats where I was posting.


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## csalter2 (Aug 17, 2019)

It is very interesting for me to read so many comments/opinions of various people. Some are accurate and some aren’t. A new timeshare owner is bound to be confused. If we can stick to what we know as fact and let make clear what we feel is either opinion or conjecture, that would make it easier for those following the thread.

First, there is a difference between Destination Points for timeshares and Bonvoy Points for hotels.  Destination Points CANNOT BE DEVALUED by Marriott. The points are tied to real estate weeks. So if it takes 4000 points to stay in a 2 bedroom ocean view in Hawaii today, it will cost you the same 4000 points to stay in that unit 20 years from now. There will be no going up in points needed. I have been with my timeshare with Diamond Resorts and was with three previous developers before Diamond bought them and the points needed to reserve never increased.  Where you get increases in Destination Points is in the maintenance fees. So that’s where they get their  money, not changing the amount of points needed to reserve the unit.

As for the Bonvoy Points, those are for the hotels only and they can do whatever they wish and devalue them as they desire. What people seem to forget is that Bonvoy Points/Marriott Rewards Points are FREEBIES. You have not paid a dime/penny/nickel/dollar for them.  They were GIVEN to you. Many of people get them not because money even came out of their pockets. Their jobs paid for the room and they get employee staying at the hotel gets the FREEIE.  It’s interesting how people forget this. Some of these people even get indignant if the simplest of errors are made by the hotel like not saying they are Titanium and they have not used one red dime of theirs to attain that status. Those of us who are MVC owners are just as bad because we too forget that we bought a timeshare and the Bonvoy points are an EXTRA PERK not a part of our contract that we paid for. It is a nice to have FREEBIE that Marriott gave.

Marriott makes it very, very clear that they can change or even terminate the Bonvoy program.  I personally have not spent and dime for my Bonvoy Points. I get them through updates, hotel stays that I not my company pays for but I don’t use hotels but maybe 5 or 6 nights out of a year. I buy everything I would normally buy and put it on the credit card. I need to pay my electric bill, I need to buy food and clothing.  I put my needs on that card and pay it off. I was going to spend anyway. So my Bonvoy points are all FREEBIES and I recognize it as such.

So I don’t worry about Marriott devaluing THEIR points. Heck, I appreciate having free breakfasts and room nights on them. I have not paid one red cent to earn those points except using their brand. I believe there are many on this site who forget this very basic premise. We help Marriott rich, and they throw us some good bennies that we DO NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR. If we remember that and leave our entitlement mentality behind we can be happier.

If you don’t like Marriott, be like my wife and become a Diamond member with Hilton.  She is definitely an entitled one, a downright Hilton snob!.


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## pianodinosaur (Aug 17, 2019)

Hotel chains and airlines are not required to have customer loyalty programs.  However there is a good reason why they do.  I think it has something to do with promoting customer loyalty.  If you go on a cruise, most of the passengers have already been on multiple cruises.  The cruise industry could not survive without people who take frequent cruises.  I think this is the justification for Bonvoy, Hilton Honors, IHG, and Hyatt credit cards.  We earn these points by using their credit cards and patronizing their properties.  My last two Bonvoy redemptions were at the St Regis in Kauai in late June 2018 and at the Westin in Avon in January 2019.  I spent a great deal at both facilities during our stay, thus earning more points.  I have a Hilton Honors redemption in the next two weeks at The Buffalo Thunder Resort in Santa Fe.  I anticipate spending money there as well.

Therefore, I would argue that customer loyalty programs exist for the benefit of the sponsors.  As a loyal customer of both Bonvoy and Hilton, I enjoy the benefits.  However, Thanks to the corporate powers that be, The St Regis in Kauai is no longer a St Regis as it as been taken over by another corporation and The Las Vegas Hilton property is now managed by Westgate.  Just another form of point devaluation.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 17, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> It is very interesting for me to read so many comments/opinions of various people. Some are accurate and some aren’t. A new timeshare owner is bound to be confused. If we can stick to what we know as fact and let make clear what we feel is either opinion or conjecture, that would make it easier for those following the thread.
> 
> First, there is a difference between Destination Points for timeshares and Bonvoy Points for hotels.  Destination Points CANNOT BE DEVALUED by Marriott. The points are tied to real estate weeks. So if it takes 4000 points to stay in a 2 bedroom ocean view in Hawaii today, it will cost you the same 4000 points to stay in that unit 20 years from now. There will be no going up in points needed. I have been with my timeshare with Diamond Resorts and was with three previous developers before Diamond bought them and the points needed to reserve never increased.  Where you get increases in Destination Points is in the maintenance fees. So that’s where they get there money, not changing the amount of points needed to reserve the unit.
> 
> ...



In general I agree, but the devaluation of the Bonvoy program devalues the hotel conversion element of the MVC and Vistana programs. However, conversion to Bonvoy has not been a decent option for a long time (and getting worse). As a resale owner conversion is dead to me. But I didn't buy a timeshare to get hotel points - but some owners did. That devaluation is very real for such buyers.

Although it is not a cash outlay, you are paying for points in the form of higher hotel and airfare costs to support these programs. When you receive the points it is a form of rebate on those costs. Heck, even the IRS recognizes points as a rebate because you are not taxed on points you collect.

When points are collected via a credit card, you are opting for the points currency instead of 2% cash back which you could receive via other credit cards - that's an opportunity cost.

For example: If you spend $100,000 a year and you have a 2% cash back card, that's $2000 a year. That's significant. The loyalty game has been about getting more than $2000 benefit from hotel stays. That game is getting much harder to play with Bonvoy which makes 2% cash back cards more attractive - especially without the complicated rules and rapid devaluations.

I agree that devaluation of the timeshare points is a different discussion. It's possible but much harder as it involves chipping at the edges of trust composition, and limiting access to new properties either in the form of:

*1) Separate property pools* as we have seen with DVC which has roped off their legacy customers from the newer resort; HGVC with by Hilton Club with 60 day access if you don't own bHC.

*2) Points Inflation: *Offering newer resorts with inflated points requirements relative to the older resorts which requires the buy-in of more points to stay there.​
So, yes the points are tied to a deed and are not likely to change, but if you try to use them on a newer property you will need to buy more points.


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## Dean (Aug 17, 2019)

CPNY said:


> Exactly, so to all of those who say “we lost nothing” is wrong. Sad reality that’s business. Nothing is like it used to be and these points programs are generally devalued constantly. It makes owning a points based vacation ownership scary. That too can be devalued. Maybe not overnight but it can absolutely go down little by little over the years.


I think it's important to realize what's contractual and what's not.  This is a thread on reward points and as such, the entire program is an add on that could go away tomorrow if they so chose.  I liken it to 2010 when the DC system came out.  One of my life mantras is that someone else's gain is not automatically my loss.  So those who are not DC members but own Marriott weeks and those that joined the DC but deal with the skin did not lose anything from before the program came out.  They can still use their weeks which is all they had before.  One MIGHT be able to make the case that there is a minor affect on direct availability but that's it.  That there might be less availability in II or they might not be able to take points and reserve the same exact item due to the skim is reality but it's not a loss in terms of compared to pre or without DC enrollment.  I know some are not happy because they feel the skim is too much and I can't disagree with that opinion, but they have the choice.  The reality is that essentially everything, even the contractual options, can be changed with the setup of the POS.  They have 100% control of the reservation system and the POS itself can be changed fairly easily.


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## bogey21 (Aug 17, 2019)

cubigbird said:


> This is exactly why I will always own weeks at my ownerships.



Agree.  For the last 5 or 6 years of my TimeSharing experience I owned  Fixed Week/Fixed Units at six different Independent HOA Controlled Resorts.  I not only knew where I was going to stay but the cost of Ownership was negligible.  In addition I never had trouble getting Management at my Resorts to move my week when I requested it...

George


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## dougp26364 (Aug 17, 2019)

Soooooo, glad I never purchased a week from Marriott with the intention of becoming a "Marriott Millionaire" in terms of using timeshare weeks converted to what was then Marriott Rewards points with the idea of collecting over 1 million points to take travel package trips. My reason given to the salesman was always that the program wasn't guaranteed not to either change or be discontinued. I feel for those who purchased weeks with the lone intention of converting them every year for hotel points.

On the other hand, in 2001 when we purchased our Ocean Pointe week, my original thought was to lock it off, use the master suite one year, the studio the next year and trade for points every other year. We were still a little naïve about timeshare and I let the salesmen convince me I wouldn't have to deposit, trade back into my own resort AND give up our ocean front view. 2003 was the ONLY year we've deposited our unit for points and, we've never done it again. 

The program was devalued to the point we rarely use our Marriott Rewards card these days. We still use it for Marriott stays or security deposits at Marriott Timeshares and I'll take the points when making payments to Marriott. But we no longer collect points with the thought of using them for vacations. We save them until we need a night or two at a hotel and burn them at that time. Most recently in Reno when we had an early morning flight back home and we didn't was to get up at 04:00 AM to drive from our stay at Timber Lodge to the airport in Reno. Our next potential usage may be the next time we fly to Hawaii. We've grown tired of the 15 hour travel day flying from the Midwest to Hawaii and will look into spending the night on the west coast, then flying to Hawaii the next morning.


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## Superchief (Aug 17, 2019)

I agree that this is a loyalty program and there are no contractual commitments. However, since Sorenson took over, the MR points we had earned over several years have quickly diminished in value. I have been a member since the program's inception and there were only slight increases for over 20 years. Now, the value of points is about half of what they were a few years ago. Similar to a rebate, we expect the value to be a certain level when we achieve our points goal. However, Marriott now keeps moving the goal posts. I wouldn't have a problem if we were able to use our accumulated points under the awards structure in place when we earned them, and the higher redemption rates would apply to points earned in the future. This would be fair to customers and to Marriott. 

I had been a very loyal customer for Marriott for the past 30+ years because they valued my business. That is no longer the case, so they have lost my loyalty. My decisions now will be based on cost, location, and quality of the hotel regardless of brand. Marriott has allowed their business to become a commodity and I believe their profits will suffer longer term. Customers are willing to pay a premium when they are loyal.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 17, 2019)

Marriott and United cater to the corporate travel crowd. Most employees hair is on fire so grabbing Bonvoy points while company pays bill feels good even if they are too busy to know they are pesos.

Marriott doesnt care about consumers or timeshare owners because they provide lower margins and most get "free" points and elite via credit cards instead of paid stays.


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## Dean (Aug 17, 2019)

Superchief said:


> My decisions now will be based on cost, location, and quality of the hotel regardless of brand. Marriott has allowed their business to become a commodity and I believe their profits will suffer longer term.


IMO this should have always been the core components of any decision making.  The other stuff is just an add on bonus.  I realize there's an emotional component but it should be minimal and best case scenario, it should be almost nonexistent.


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## dougp26364 (Aug 17, 2019)

Dean said:


> IMO this should have always been the core components of any decision making.  The other stuff is just an add on bonus.  I realize there's an emotional component but it should be minimal and best case scenario, it should be almost nonexistent.



BINGO!

Usually a hard learned lesson though.


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## kds4 (Aug 17, 2019)

BreakingAway said:


> This may not be new for others, but it was for us when the Marriott hotel we planned to stay  would not accept Bonvoy points for the dates we wanted to stay. The hotel would accept cash only. We reserved a Marriott with points a few  miles away, but it was annoying that a Marriott hotel could decide it would not accept Marriott currency (Bonvoy points) at all for the dates we wanted to reserve...only US dollars. Devaluation is one issue but opting out of accepting points at all is another  problematic issue altogether in my opinion.



I believe this ability to adjust inventory control at the local level to determine how many rooms are available on a given night for points reservations versus cash reservations has always been there. The cash rates are more valuable to the hotel owners (despite the potential for F&B spend from a points guest) as corporate reimbursement to the individual hotels for points guests room costs is probably below publicly available rates, I suspect. It is frustrating to try and make a points reservation somewhere and have no availability show on the website, but when you switch to cash rates (voila) rooms magically appear.


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## kds4 (Aug 17, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> I have a question regarding my travel packages. I’ve 2 Category 5 7 night packages. Since I just received an exchange to Kingsland at big island in 2020, I need to cancel my existing reservation for Westin at big island. I plan to rebook in 2021, but the reservation for 2021 hasn’t opened yet. I wonder will the travel package subject to peak season or it will still go by hotel category?



Travel package accommodation certificates (ACs) are tied to hotel categories, in your case they are usable at any Category 1 through Category 5 property (with points based rooms available for the dates you want).


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## kds4 (Aug 17, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Although the MVC and Vistana programs remain separate. IMHO...This thread is about Bonvoy hotel points devaluation which affects both MVC and Vistana because the points have been consolidated by Marriott Int'l. It doesn't make sense to duplicate threads about a consolidated program.



True, but to keep the conversation more clear on the MVC forum, I would suggest trying to focus the discussion toward aspects of the Bonvoy program directly involving timeshare ownership, such as whether MVC owners will still be able to book peak season stays using accommodation certificates from our 5 night travel packages versus generic loyalty program issues like who is or isn't getting free breakfast now (unless it was a function of some ownership tier change within the Destination Club program).

All Bonvoy questions have merit, but if I was a non-timeshare owner looking for answers about my Bonvoy membership, I wouldn't be coming to TUG to find answers. I would go to one of the other online forum websites where I would likely find far more folks who could answer those non-timeshare ownership impacted questions, like FlyerTalk's Marriott forum (just as I would suspect timeshare related Bonvoy questions on FlyerTalk would be directed to TUG). YMMV.


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## Superchief (Aug 17, 2019)

Dean said:


> IMO this should have always been the core components of any decision making.  The other stuff is just an add on bonus.  I realize there's an emotional component but it should be minimal and best case scenario, it should be almost nonexistent.


I think the Marriott family recognized that customer and employee loyalty enhance long-term profits. I always felt valued as a customer and the overall quality and service at Marriott hotels exceeded most competitors. It was worth a slightly higher cost. 

Companies make major mistakes when they alienate long-time loyal customers by cost cutting and 'margin enhancement'. Kraft/Heinz and other major CPG companies are examples of what happens when your products become commodities.


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## csalter2 (Aug 17, 2019)

I don’t think that people believe that it costs money to have these loyalty programs.  Breakfasts aren’t free, the housekeeper’s salary is not free, the electricity to clean sheets and towels is not free, that 4 p.m. checkout is not free because it requires more housekeeping or overtime. There is some cost associated with every benefit offered by the loyalty programs. As costs increase, you must understand that there is going to naturally be some sort of devaluation of the points to keep the “free” stuff. 

I think people are unrealistic and naive to think the points values are to stay the same.


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## controller1 (Aug 17, 2019)

kds4 said:


> I believe this ability to adjust inventory control at the local level to determine how many rooms are available on a given night for points reservations versus cash reservations has always been there.



This ability has only been historically at the legacy-Marriott properties.  Starwood's policy was that if a basic/traditional room was available for cash then it was available for points.  It has only been since August 18, 2018 when the loyalty programs were merged that this newfound ability has been utilized at the legacy-Starwood properties.  And it appears there are still some that are just now realizing this ability exists.


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## kds4 (Aug 17, 2019)

controller1 said:


> This ability has only been historically at the legacy-Marriott properties.  Starwood's policy was that if a basic/traditional room was available for cash then it was available for points.  It has only been since August 18, 2018 when the loyalty programs were merged that this newfound ability has been utilized at the legacy-Starwood properties.  And it appears there are still some that are just now realizing this ability exists.



I see. While I had both SPG and Marriott status pre-merger, I wasn't aware SPG utilized their inventory controls over points availability differently than Marriott did/does.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Aug 17, 2019)

The whole purpose of loyalty programs is to keep the customer coming back. This goes all the way back to trading stamps. . .  . (I go back that far - barely!)

To provide an incentive to keep the customer from continually hunting for "the best deal", among multiple vendors, the next time. Sort of like hanging a carrot just out of reach for a plow animal.

Once you have gotten into a incentive system, then you are much less likely to leave it, because that means losing the partial incentive already built up. Often you are not even tempted to look at competing prices for a similar product.

Just remember this, the vendors doing the incentive program has every incentive to over-promise and under-deliver on those loyalty programs. Every "under delivery" means more profit to the vendor. The trick for the vendor is to not "under deliver" to the point where a major number of customers decide that in the long haul the "system" is not competitive with other systems, or with going back to looking for the most competitive price for the goods involved....


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## pianodinosaur (Aug 17, 2019)

HGVC has been a timeshare points system ever since I joined in 2001.  That is how I got into the Hhonors hotel customer loyalty program.  I had been in the Marriott’s Rewards Program and Starwood’s Preferred program prior to purchasing my first timeshare with Hilton.   Whenever Hhonors had a point devaluation the value of converting my HGVC timeshare points into Hhonors points diminished. 

I now own two MVC weeks and will not convert them to DC points due to the way the system is structured.  However, Every devaluation of Bonvoy points will decrease the value of converting DC points into Bonvoy points.


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## kds4 (Aug 17, 2019)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> The whole purpose of loyalty programs is to keep the customer coming back. This goes all the way back to trading stamps. . .  . (I go back that far - barely!)
> 
> To provide an incentive to keep the customer from continually hunting for "the best deal", among multiple vendors, the next time. Sort of like hanging a carrot just out of reach for a plow animal.
> 
> ...



Ha! Don't even get me started on my S&H Green Stamps now ...


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## Fasttr (Aug 17, 2019)

pianodinosaur said:


> However, Every devaluation of Bonvoy points will decrease the value of converting DC points into Bonvoy points.


Actually, the weeks owners have been hit harder with the MR/Bonvoy points devaluation.  Weeks to Bonvoy points conversion is fixed and to my knowledge has never changed. In comparison, DC points started out in 2010 as 1 DC point = 32 MR points.  That conversion was increased a year or so ago and is now a 1:40 conversion ratio (a 25% improvement).  Still not a good value, but they did at least make an attempt at recasting the conversion ratio to reflect the devaluing MR/Bonvoy points.


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## Superchief (Aug 17, 2019)

It will be interesting to see if the Non-peak award rates are offered in full service hotels on weekends. Weekend cash rates are typically much lower than week nights. I often spend the first or last night of a DC points trip at an airport hotel since the weekend DC point requirements are much higher. It would be nice if Bonvoy offers non-peak awards at airport FS hotels.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 17, 2019)

Fasttr said:


> Actually, the weeks owners have been hit harder with the MR/Bonvoy points devaluation.  Weeks to Bonvoy points conversion is fixed and to my knowledge has never changed. In comparison, DC point started out in 2010 as 1 DC point = 32 MR points.  That conversion was increased a year or so ago and is now a 1:40 conversion ratio (a 25% improvement).  Still not a good value, but they did at least make an attempt at recasting the conversion ratio to reflect the devaluing MR/Bonvoy points.


Also worth noting is that owners of enrolled Weeks can't take advantage of the higher exchange rate of DC Exchange Points-to-Bonvoy Points because enrolled Weeks can be exchanged *either* for DC Exchange Points *or* for Bonvoy Points, meaning DC Exchange Points from enrolled/converted Weeks can't be subsequently exchanged for Bonvoy Points. If MVW sets a pattern of adjusting up the DC Trust (purchased) Points-to-Bonvoy Points metric following Bonvoy devaluations, Weeks Owners will continue to take even harder hits.


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## csalter2 (Aug 17, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> Also worth noting is that owners of enrolled Weeks can't take advantage of the higher exchange rate of DC Exchange Points-to-Bonvoy Points because enrolled Weeks can be exchanged *either* for DC Exchange Points *or* for Bonvoy Points, meaning DC Exchange Points from enrolled/converted Weeks can't be subsequently exchanged for Bonvoy Points. If MVW sets a pattern of adjusting up the DC Trust (purchased) Points-to-Bonvoy Points metric following Bonvoy devaluations, Weeks Owners will continue to take even harder hits.



When I was at the Pulse in NYC earlier this month, the salesman tried to tell me that what was missing from my portfolio was the points part of the system. He was talking about Bonvoy points because my weeks do not get many of them and they are all every other week conversions. He actually tried to convince me to purchase Custom House to add that feature to my portfolio along with a 2000 point DC purchase next to it.  Hahahaha! He offered Custom House to lower point cost but also because Custom House can convert to points Every Year instead of alternating years.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 17, 2019)

csalter2 said:


> When I was at the Pulse in NYC earlier this month, the salesman tried to tell me that what was missing from my portfolio was the points part of the system. He was talking about Bonvoy points because my weeks do not get many of them and they are all every other week conversions. He actually tried to convince me to purchase Custom House to add that feature to my portfolio along with a 2000 point DC purchase next to it.  Hahahaha! He offered Custom House to lower point cost but also because Custom House can convert to points Every Year instead of alternating years.



Yep, that's worth laughing at! Exchanging to Bonvoy Points is a good perk to have when you have no other use for whatever you own, and many people have figured out how to stretch them as far as possible with Travel Packages, but no way should it be the reason to buy DC Trust Points! Long gone are the days when turning in a Week for Marriott Rewards Points got you a Trip Around The World (or whatever it was called) package with hotels plus flights. Not miles to amass trying to get flights, but actual flights!


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Aug 17, 2019)

kds4 said:


> Ha! Don't even get me started on my S&H Green Stamps now ...



No TEXAS GOLD?


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## Dean (Aug 17, 2019)

Superchief said:


> I think the Marriott family recognized that customer and employee loyalty enhance long-term profits. I always felt valued as a customer and the overall quality and service at Marriott hotels exceeded most competitors. It was worth a slightly higher cost.
> 
> Companies make major mistakes when they alienate long-time loyal customers by cost cutting and 'margin enhancement'. Kraft/Heinz and other major CPG companies are examples of what happens when your products become commodities.


But it's all smoke and mirrors.  It's like when someone says they do or don't like a resort because of their interactions with the personnel there.  The next person may have a completely different experience and even if it's real and reproducible, it'll change before long as staff cycle through.  Certainly taking things away is looked at negatively by a large segment of the customers.  IMO it's ultimately not possible to keep up with expectations from groups that want to continue to be wowed and courted.  My point was, in part, that if one has reasonable expectations going in and there are fairly minor changes, it doesn't cause consternation.  



csalter2 said:


> I don’t think that people believe that it costs money to have these loyalty programs.  Breakfasts aren’t free, the housekeeper’s salary is not free, the electricity to clean sheets and towels is not free, that 4 p.m. checkout is not free because it requires more housekeeping or overtime. There is some cost associated with every benefit offered by the loyalty programs. As costs increase, you must understand that there is going to naturally be some sort of devaluation of the points to keep the “free” stuff.
> 
> I think people are unrealistic and naive to think the points values are to stay the same.


To an extent but I'd also say that if it made sense to do X at one point when it had cost, continuing to offer that service should generally cost around the same adjusted over time though there are exceptions.  Let's take Disney & DVC for example.  Many years ago Disney offered free valet parking to all guests but that didn't last that long.  However, it was a perk of DVC membership even after the first contract where the valet's were outsourced.  Then when it came time to redo the contract the company was no longer willing to do it for free to get the volume and it would have jumped instantly to full price which DVCMC would have had to cover at full price had they continued the option. No reasonable person would have continued the perk in that situation though they made the change poorly.  Basically they didn't announce it, didn't have a phase in and effetely some showed up with free valet and left with a bill with no warning.


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## controller1 (Aug 17, 2019)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> No TEXAS GOLD?



I don't remember Texas Gold but I do remember S&H Green Stamps and also Gold Bond Stamps.


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## TXTortoise (Aug 17, 2019)

controller1 said:


> I don't remember Texas Gold but I do remember S&H Green Stamps and also Gold Bond Stamps.


HEB


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 18, 2019)

kds4 said:


> True, but to keep the conversation more clear on the MVC forum, I would suggest trying to focus the discussion toward aspects of the Bonvoy program directly involving timeshare ownership, such as whether MVC owners will still be able to book peak season stays using accommodation certificates from our 5 night travel packages versus generic loyalty program issues like who is or isn't getting free breakfast now (unless it was a function of some ownership tier change within the Destination Club program).
> 
> All Bonvoy question have merit, but if I was a non-timeshare owner looking for answers about my Bonvoy membership, I wouldn't be coming to TUG to find answers. I would go to one of the other online forum websites where I would likely find far more folks who could answer those non-timeshare ownership impacted questions, like FlyerTalk's Marriott forum (just as I would suspect timeshare related Bonvoy questions on FlyerTalk would be directed to TUG). YMMV.



Bonvoy now affects much more than MVC. Perhaps a Bonvoy discussion should be moved in the Lounge. Either way is fine. Sure there's FlyerTalk, however MVC owners and (non-MVC TUGers who stay at Marriotts) have a wealth of knowledge on how best to leverage Bonvoy points. Tuggers have provided helpful info and it is much appreciated. I would rather hear from Tuggers that I trust than random strangers (and bots) on Flyertalk.

I don't think there is confusion about MVCI because the thread title makes it clear that the discussion is about Bonvoy. Sure there are a few posts with Bonvoy specifics that don't pertain to timeshares but they are all factual. That's par for the course. It doesn't compare to creating a post with unsubstantiated MVC sales rumors about the merger...


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## MULTIZ321 (Aug 19, 2019)

Just 2 weeks Left to Register For Marriott Bonvoy's Endless Earning Promotion.


https://thepointsguy.com/news/2-weeks-left-marriott-endless-earning/


Richard


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## BigMac (Sep 2, 2019)

_[Merged.]_

As of September 14th Marriott is making a number of changes to the Bonvoy program. Here is an article by "Travelling for miles" on the subject.
https://travelingformiles.com/why-you-should-be-making-marriott-points-advance-reservations-now/


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## kds4 (Sep 2, 2019)

*"As of 14 September 2019* Bonvoy members will not be able to have more than 3 active Points Advance reservations at any one time and *the Points Advance option will only guarantee award availability at a property and not the final cost in points. Properties can change the points cost of a Points Advance booking up to when the points are actually debited from a Bonvoy member’s account – the price (cost in points) you’re quoted at the time a Points Advance reservation is made may not be the cost you eventually pay."*

The bolded part is what I think bothers me most. So, if I want to go somewhere and make a points advance booking but between my reservation and check-in dates Marriott changes the hotel category or changes the dates of the 3 points 'seasons' for that property, I'm left to either more likely pay more in points (or possibly less) or have to cancel the booking altogether (unless I'm able to switch to a cash rate - assuming one's available).

This makes me think it best to secure the points needed asap to 'lock-in' the rate and prevent a more likely 'float-up' in cost. Of course, if the cost actually goes down (after the points have been deducted from your account), can you get a points rebate credited back? It seems not, as the article only references canceling the original points booking and trying to make a new one at the lower rate (assuming there is available points inventory once you 'release' the room you had and try to book it again. Worst case, may require a phone call to central reservations. If I was going where there was a big event, I would probably just try to do it over the phone to prevent losing the room altogether if points costs actually declined (which would probably prompt me to go buy a lottery ticket ...)


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## dioxide45 (Sep 2, 2019)

Pretty extensive discussion already here.


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## MULTIZ321 (Sep 7, 2019)

Book these 9 Marriott hotels by Sept.14 before peak pricing kicks in.


https://thepointsguy.com/news/book-marriott-hotels-now/


Richard


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## BocaBoy (Sep 7, 2019)

jerseyfinn said:


> TS ownership is a long-term slog/commitment over years. I don't know the present demographic of what % of we MVC folks go back to late 90s and up to 2007 before the recession brings paradigm change to the character & function of MVC.


A few of us go back to the 80's as Marriott timeshare owners.


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## BocaBoy (Sep 7, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> Long gone are the days when turning in a Week for Marriott Rewards Points got you a Trip Around The World (or whatever it was called) package with hotels plus flights. *Not miles to amass trying to get flights, but actual flights!*


True, but those "actual flights" were in coach.  I took advantage of them, but I was pleased when they made the switch to giving airline miles because we do not enjoy flying across oceans in coach.  This has become even more important in recent years with the decreases seen in the quality of airline coach seating and amenities.


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## Quilter (Sep 9, 2019)

Like with the travel packages?

We have 380K points.   I'd like to purchase a package before the price increases.   

Can someone give me the best value for my points?   StevenTing, aren't you the expert?


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## mjm1 (Sep 9, 2019)

Quilter said:


> Like with the travel packages?
> 
> We have 380K points.   I'd like to purchase a package before the price increases.
> 
> Can someone give me the best value for my points?   StevenTing, aren't you the expert?



I don’t think any changes are happening to the travel packages, but on Sept. 14 they are rolling out the new off-peak and high-Peak Points charts. So there will be off-Peak, standard, and high-Peak rates for points usage. There are some other nuances to the system as well.

Best regards.

Mike


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## Fasttr (Sep 9, 2019)

Quilter said:


> Can someone give me the best value for my points?   StevenTing, aren't you the expert?



https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/travel-package-cost-analysis-post-8-2018.293454/


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## TheTimeTraveler (Sep 9, 2019)

mjm1 said:


> I don’t think any changes are happening to the travel packages, but on Sept. 14 they are rolling out the new off-peak and high-Peak Points charts. So there will be off-Peak, standard, and high-Peak rates for points usage. There are some other nuances to the system as well.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike






Yes, there will be a Giant sucking sounds of points leaving customer accounts and going into the Marriott coffers as it will more than likely take additional points to make the same reservation next week (after September 14th) than it does today.



.


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## pianodinosaur (Sep 9, 2019)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> Yes, there will be a Giant sucking sounds of points leaving customer accounts and going into the Marriott coffers as it will more than likely take additional points to make the same reservation next week (after September 14th) than it does today.
> 
> 
> 
> .



Now would be the time to access the BONVOY app.  You can get some very nice five night stays with 380,000 Bonvoy points.


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## kds4 (Sep 10, 2019)

mjm1 said:


> I don’t think any changes are happening to the travel packages, but on Sept. 14 they are rolling out the new off-peak and high-Peak Points charts. So there will be off-Peak, standard, and high-Peak rates for points usage. There are some other nuances to the system as well.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike



Yes, which begs the underlying question to OP's initial post - Will the implementation of peak/off-peak pricing have a corresponding impact on the cost of 5/7 Night Travel Packages (TPs)? It could be that TP pricing will remain unchanged, but if you attempt to use it to make a reservation during a property's 'peak pricing', you will be hit with an 'upcharge' in points at that time. Of course, don't expect a refund if you happen to be traveling during a property's 'off-peak pricing' (although I would make it an issue just on principle were that to happen to me). If TPs are going to be charged more for peak, then rebates for off-peak should be available as well. IMHO.


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## Fasttr (Sep 10, 2019)

[





kds4 said:


> Yes, which begs the underlying question to OP's initial post - Will the implementation of peak/off-peak pricing have a corresponding impact on the cost of 5/7 Night Travel Packages (TPs)? It could be that TP pricing will remain unchanged, but if you attempt to use it to make a reservation during a property's 'peak pricing', you will be hit with an 'upcharge' in points at that time. Of course, don't expect a refund if you happen to be traveling during a property's 'off-peak pricing' (although I would make it an issue just on principle were that to happen to me). If TPs are going to be charged more for peak, then rebates for off-peak should be available as well. IMHO.


I believe it has been reported that since the travel packages are category based, not point based, they will not be affected by peak/off peak pricing, which will help to mitigate the continued devaluation if used during a peak pricing windows.


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## Quilter (Sep 10, 2019)

In the old SPG system I remember being able to get rooms with a standard rate of points even though the cash prices were on a scale of peak and non-peak pricing.   Hopefully the new blended system does this.

So from what I'm reading it would probably be a good time to pick a location for a reservation and book it before 9/14, just to be safe?  

I'm thinking of a multi-week trip combining the Hilton points (different thread) with Bonvoy.   Hawaii maybe.   I just have no idea what dates or what island.


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## Mr. Vker (Sep 10, 2019)

Fasttr said:


> [
> I believe it has been reported that since the travel packages are category based, not point based, they will not be affected by peak/off peak pricing, which will help to mitigate the continued devaluation if used during a peak pricing window.



Has that been reported by Marriott? Back when MR has "anytime awards" you couldn't use certificates to book award stays if a standard award wasn't available. I'm a little worried about this.


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## kds4 (Sep 10, 2019)

Fasttr said:


> [
> I believe it has been reported that since the travel packages are category based, not point based, they will not be affected by peak/off peak pricing, which will help to mitigate the continued devaluation if used during a peak pricing windows.



That's good to know, if true. I'm just hoping that (if it is true) it doesn't turn out to be a loophole that Marriott comes to recognize and close. I'm all for keeping it strictly category based.


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## kds4 (Sep 10, 2019)

Quilter said:


> In the old SPG system I remember being able to get rooms with a standard rate of points even though the cash prices were on a scale of peak and non-peak pricing.   Hopefully the new blended system does this.
> 
> So from what I'm reading it would probably be a good time to pick a location for a reservation and book it before 9/14, just to be safe?
> 
> I'm thinking of a multi-week trip combining the Hilton points (different thread) with Bonvoy.   Hawaii maybe.   I just have no idea what dates or what island.



Couldn't hurt to set something up (as long as you can figure out a tentative travel window/location) even if you end up canceling later.


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## Fasttr (Sep 10, 2019)

Mr. Vker said:


> Has that been reported by Marriott? Back when MR has "anytime awards" you couldn't use certificates to book award stays if a standard award wasn't available. I'm a little worried about this.


I believe folks are relying on this post from Marriott Bonvoy Lurker (generally recognized to be a Bonvoy representative) 
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/31420481-post2179.html


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## Mr. Vker (Sep 10, 2019)

Fasttr said:


> I believe folks are relying on this post from Marriott Bonvoy Lurker (generally recognized to be a Bonvoy representative)
> https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/31420481-post2179.html


That's great news.


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## MULTIZ321 (Sep 15, 2019)

Marriott peak and off-peak pricing is here 


https://thepointsguy.com/news/marriott-peak-off-peak-pricing-arrives/


Richard


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## VacationForever (Sep 15, 2019)

I checked my 3 reservations which are all for 5 nights.  One Cat 5, 2 Cat 1-4.  This afternoon the requirement for the Cat 5 changed from 140K to 150K points.  The requirement for the 2 Cat 1-4 was 100K, and it changed to 120K this afternoon.  Not thrilled.


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## jabberwocky (Sep 15, 2019)

I just booked 2 nights at the RC Kapalua on Maui (forgot to book it yesterday as intended). Was standard award rate for Cat 7 (60k). Perhaps this was booked far enough in advance that peak pricing did not hit.


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## jabberwocky (Sep 15, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> I checked my 3 reservations which are all for 5 nights.  One Cat 5, 2 Cat 1-4.  This afternoon the requirement for the Cat 5 changed from 140K to 150K points.  The requirement for the 2 Cat 1-4 was 100K, and it changed to 120K this afternoon.  Not thrilled.



Were they Points Advance reservations or did you have enough points when booked?


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## VacationForever (Sep 15, 2019)

jabberwocky said:


> Were they Points Advance reservations or did you have enough points when booked?


I have travel package certificates attached to these but I still see online as needing to deduct points for these reservations.  Marriott Bonvoy agents assured me that all is well.

I am not thrilled that peak period is another excuse for devaluation of Bonvoy points.


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## MULTIZ321 (Sep 15, 2019)

First look: 7 things to know about Marriott peak and off-peak pricing.


https://thepointsguy.com/news/marriott-peak-pricing-first-look/


Richard


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## Superchief (Sep 15, 2019)

I checked all of the award reservations I have in the next 11 months. Most are for single night stays in off season in non-prime areas. The Residence Inn in Flagstaff in March is now peak rate=60k points. My reservation is 50k, but I also reserved an HGI in the area for $135 per night. All of the others remained at the standard rate, even though many of them should be low season in low demand hotels. I didn't see any off peak rates. This is just another way for Marriott to increase point requirements without changing basic category requirements. It is obvious that peak awards aren't counterbalanced by off peak at most properties. In my search for multiple dates at some properties, I only found peak and standard.

I'm glad that our DC points actually have to have low season rates to counter balance premium.


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## MULTIZ321 (Sep 20, 2019)

How to check Marriott Bonvoy reward rates each night in monthly View


https://loyaltytraveler.boardingare...nvoy-reward-rates-each-night-in-monthly-view/


Richard


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## pchung6 (Sep 21, 2019)

I can’t believe my eyes this morning when I just checked my reservation next year for my Oahu trip. Instead of 35000 pts per night, now it is asking 40000 and will automatically deduct from my account, which I have no idea what is going on. My reservation was made weeks before the 9/14 change. I have to pay 2 nights at peak price after the change even the reservation was before the change. I made reservation when it was 35000, I feel like I’m being Bonvoyed again.


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## controller1 (Sep 21, 2019)

Delete


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## BocaBoy (Sep 22, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> I can’t believe my eyes this morning when I just checked my reservation next year for my Oahu trip. Instead of 35000 pts per night, now it is asking 40000 and will automatically deduct from my account, which I have no idea what is going on. My reservation was made weeks before the 9/14 change. I have to pay 2 nights at peak price after the change even the reservation was before the change. I made reservation when it was 35000, I feel like I’m being Bonvoyed again.


Did you have the points deducted from your account at the time the reservation was made?  Or did you just make the reservation and planned to have the points deducted later?  If the latter, I read before the change that as of September 14 you cannot lock in the number of points with a reservation unless you also have the points deducted.  If the points were already deducted, then it is fully paid for and no more points are owed.


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## pchung6 (Sep 22, 2019)

BocaBoy said:


> Did you have the points deducted from your account at the time the reservation was made?  Or did you just make the reservation and planned to have the points deducted later?  If the latter, I read before the change that as of September 14 you cannot lock in the number of points with a reservation unless you also have the points deducted.  If the points were already deducted, then it is fully paid for and no more points are owed.



Yes I had enough pts when I reserved long ago. Now I see all the pts still in my account, not sure these points were returned after 9/14 or never deducted. It’s so weird and probably just another Bonvoyed story.


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