# Ranking the Top Timeshare Systems



## mesamirage

**Admin Edit:  Wanted to include the chart that has been compiled to update this original thread from back in 2006!  Its amazing how far things have come!*

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare-system-comparison-chart.html



Original post below
---------------------------------

If you had to Rank the top 4 Hotel based Timeshare systems how would you rank them from 1st to 4th (There is no last since they all provide great vacations for us TUGGERs)

I think we all agree that the top 4 Hotel based systems are: Hyatt, Hilton, Marriott, Westin.

Here is how I would rank them and a short reason for each off why I put them in the order I did.

#1 Starwood- I just finally picked up a Westin week (EOY Platium Kierland). This is the resort that got me started 3 years ago on timeshares. Went to a presentation and left thinking "We have to own a week at this place". PROs- I personally feel that Westin has it going on, the quality of the resorts seems to us to be Best in Class to the other Hotel based systems. CONs- High maintence fees, terrible reservation system.. get real!! People are spending $10's of thousands of $$$ just to have the pleasure of getting up at 5am to "attempt" to make a reservation.

#2 Marriott- Now I have never stayed at the Marriott resorts so this is all perception. I get the impression that the Hawaii locations they have are fantastic. PRO's- Lots of quality resorts.. specifically great Hawaii locations. CONs- Not sure?? Higher maintence fees?? Avg internal trading system??

#3 Hyatt- To be honest I would have ranked Hyatt 2nd but since I'm an owner (1880 Gold week, Tahoe) I thought this would look biased if I ranked the 2 resorts I own as 1/2. PROs Hyatt has a great system for reservations and/or just using your deeded week. Great ski locations, quality Key West locations (Sunset Harbot is getting older in my opinion) CONs Not enough locations

#4 Hilton- I also have not been to Hilton, so I am making this assumption based on what their Hotels are like. Quality.. but it always has left me wanting a bit more. Pros?? CONs???

So that is just my opinion to get this thread started, I would like to see how other TUGGERs rank these systems vs each other.

Thx,

Steve

*Rankings*
1st place vote gets 4 points/2nd 3 points/3rd 2 points/4th 1 point

*Starwood 28 points!!*
6 1st place votes
1 3rd place
2 4th place

*Hilton 27 points*
3 1st place
2 2nd place
4 3rd place
1 4th place

*Marriott 24 points*
3 1st place
4 2nd place

*Hyatt 19 points*
2 1st place
2 2nd place
1 3rd place
3 4th place


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## Steve

Good topic.  Here's how I rate them:

1)  Marriott.  By far the most...and best...locations.  Plus (with only a few exceptions) the resorts are beautifully decorated and maintained.  Great swimming pools and amenities, too. I feel Marriott is the industry leader in timeshares by a wide margin.  The cons:  expensive...less flexible...resale buyers can't exchange for reward points.

2)  Hyatt.  High quality, intimate resorts in highly desirable locations.  The cons:  not enough locations...very complex points system that is more rigid than it needs to be...resale buyers can't exchange for hotel points.

3)  Hilton.  Extremely flexible and easy to use program.  Allows resale buyers to convert to HHonors points.  Some great affiliate resorts in wonderful locations.  The cons:  way too few company built locations...and Hilton is expanding too slowly.

4)  Starwood.  Quality resorts (but not as appealing to me as most Marriotts).  The cons:  Not nearly enough locations...fees are even higher than Marriott...the small one bedroom side of the lock off units are really cramped...Starwood doesn't have nearly as many hotels in places I like to travel as Hilton and Marriott so the affinity credit cards and other offers are of little interest to me.

Steve


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## Sir Newf

Boy, to me it's like compairing Audi vs SAAB vs Volvo vs BMW...it all depends on what you personally want from the experience.  You can't really go wrong, unless you make the wrong choice for your personal needs: size of unit/points, location, trade ability, type of experience (Vegas vs Mountains).
That being said- we chose HGVC for the points transfer on resale to HH pts. for global travel and for Vegas long-weekends in winter.  We chose Westin (resale) for the pure beauty and luxury for places like Kierland, Maui & Mission Hills in winter....and Laguna Shores (resale)- well- it's Laguna and I can't afford a $3million vacation home, so once a year I have it....


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## Steamboat Bill

This is a great thread, but it still comes down to, "Where do you want to visit?"

I visit Disney World often, thus I own a DVC and think they have the BEST system for Orlando, but it is not so good for trading.

I like to ski once a year, thus I own a Westgate Park City because I liked the location and units better than the other two Marriotts in Park City.

I want to buy a Marriott Williamsburgh, so I can play golf and then trade to other Marriott locations.

I think Hilton, Hyatt, and Starwood are fine TS companies, the only problem was a LACK of locations I was interested in. I would love to buy Hyatt, if they expand to another 15 locations or so.


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## djp

For me, I would put marriot and starwood as tied for first, and Hyatt and Hilton as tied for second.

MArriott has an unbeatable collection of resorts
Starwood is adding new resorts in great locations at a good pace, I find the typical starwood to be a litlle nicer than the typical marriott. I believe starwoods internal trading is easier than marriott, and starwoods hotel point conversion seems to be a better deal than marriott

Hyatt and Hilton both seem very nice, but dont have the resorts in as many places I want to go


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## tomandrobin

Where would Fairfield fit in here, or is it not considered Hotel based?


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## CaliDave

1) Marriott..  Internal trading preference and the locations are great, I don't like the reservations nightmare of trying to get prime weeks at a prime resort.
2) Hilton, they have the most flexible and easiest to use points system.. and they are by far the best for short Vegas trips (which I take often)
Also, they do not punish resale buyers. I wish they traded with II
3)Starwood, I hate that they punish "non-mandatory" resort owners, by driving down resale prices. Other than Maui, I'm not really into the locations
4)Hyatt, they have great locations for some people.. but not many that I would use. None of my top 3 locations

My typical vacations are Vegas, Hawaii, So Cal Coast. 
Marriott is best for Hawaii
Hilton is best for Vegas and  soon to be So Cal.
Hilton is much easier to book prime weeks than Marriott. 

All of the resort groups are top notch in quality.


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## ricoba

CaliDave said:
			
		

> Hilton is best for Vegas and  soon to be So Cal.



Just curious Dave, are you rating the new Marbrisa (or whatever the name is) better than the Marriott Newport?  If so, why?

Also gotta admit, that if Hyatt builds at Huntington Beach, it's going to be a great location just across the PCH from the beach.


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## Jya-Ning

tomandrobin said:
			
		

> Where would Fairfield fit in here, or is it not considered Hotel based?



FF definitely not in hotel based.   It starts as TS, the parent company is doing purchase on all type of activities.  They just recently rebrand themselves to a hotel Wyndham, so it may take years to be seem as hotel based.  All others starts as hotel then come to TS.

Now viva Wyndham may start as Hotel based.  Apparently it does not work well, so the name Wyndham was sold to CD and take over FF.  If based on this, I am pretty sure most hotel based owner will not rank FF high.

Jya-Ning


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## glenn1000

1. Starwood- the nicest resorts by far in our experience. Even though there are not as many locations as we would like, there are some great resorts. I think that Starwood is the best on Maui and when the Kauai location opens it will be the best for Hawaii in general. That's our #1 vacation destination.

2. Marriott- very nice resorts and many great locations. Our Marriott week is fixed which has saved us from some of the reservations issues people complain about.

3. Hilton- though we have less experience personally with Hilton, it seems like a great option.

4. Hyatt- last of the four only because of the lack of locations that we want to visit. The quality is great so when they open more resorts I imagine that Hyatt's TS popularity will grow.

If the question was about hotels only (not TS), I'd rank it: Starwood, Hyatt, Marriott and Hilton.


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## djp

In my opinion if Starwood added a So. cal beach location a lake tahoe resort, and a Vegas resort, coupled with its current (maui, st jon, atlantis, vail/beaver creek, florida, phoenix, palm springs, myrtle beach) and forthcoming resorts (kuai-2, and  cancun) then I believe it would then be far and above the best hotel timeshare system.  the quality and ease of reservations apart from using ii I think will set it apart as they add more  resorts.


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## DeniseM

Steve said:
			
		

> 4)  Starwood.  Quality resorts (but not as appealing to me as most Marriotts).  The cons:  Not nearly enough locations...fees are even higher than Marriott...the small one bedroom side of the lock off units are really cramped



Steve - where did you stay that you found the lock-off to be cramped?  We think the small side of our Maui unit is very spacious, but I haven't stayed at any of the Starwood properties yet.


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## bobemac

*The top timeshares*

I'll have to admit, I have a bias here.

    Traveling on business for many years, I have become a top elite
in all four programs. Marriott Platinum, Hyatt Diamond, Hilton Diamond, and Starwood Platinum.
    I prefer the Hilton and Hyatt hotel program over the other two. I'm
currently a Hyatt Diamond, and a Hilton Diamond. Hyatt hotels have
superior service with limited locations. Hilton afflliated properties are everywhere.

    Four years ago I decided that Hilton Grand Vacations Club gave me the most 
latitude, and quality. I purchased a HGVC TS at resale for a great price. I just
purchased an additional HGVC TS. I now have 12,000 points.

    My schedule is pretty open. I can select many HGVC properties in off season, or trade to RCI at lower point levels. My buying power and choices are amazing.

     HGVC is making a tremendous expansion. They are adding new properties
in SoCal, Bermuda, Portugal, Scotland, and even NYC. The are expanding
their holdings in Waikiki, Waikoloa, and Las Vegas.

   Hilton quality is high, and service is great. Now, they are expanding to
some of the best locations. Who else is in Portugal or Bermuda?
These two locations will be my first choices.


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## CaliDave

ricoba said:
			
		

> Just curious Dave, are you rating the new Marbrisa (or whatever the name is) better than the Marriott Newport?  If so, why?
> 
> Also gotta admit, that if Hyatt builds at Huntington Beach, it's going to be a great location just across the PCH from the beach.



Yes, I am talking about Marbrisa..
I like the Carlsbad/Oceanside area better than where Marriott is located. 
If it was around the Balboa Pier, I would love that. 
I believe the resorts will be comparable. Marbrisa will have a better pool complex.

Huntington is great, but the power plant and Santa Ana river are turn offs.

If I had to make a So Cal purchase choice to buy HGVC or Marriott Newport. I would buy HGVC. 
Reasons being. 
I can have several short stays with HGVC or a longer than a week stay.
I can choose anyday for checkin
Premium Hiltons are typically easier to book than Marriott
When I run out of points I can pay a low cash rental rate for 2 night minimums.


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## MLC

Sir Newf said:
			
		

> Boy, to me it's like compairing Audi vs SAAB vs Volvo vs BMW...it all depends on what you personally want from the experience.  You can't really go wrong, unless you make the wrong choice for your personal needs: size of unit/points, location, trade ability, type of experience (Vegas vs Mountains).
> That being said- we chose HGVC for the points transfer on resale to HH pts. for global travel and for Vegas long-weekends in winter.  We chose Westin (resale) for the pure beauty and luxury for places like Kierland, Maui & Mission Hills in winter....and Laguna Shores (resale)- well- it's Laguna and I can't afford a $3million vacation home, so once a year I have it....



I could not have said it any better.  I own all of these, and each one has it"s good points and it's bad points.  That is why I own each system.  That being said, Hyatt is the most complicated to understand in regards to getting the best bang for your buck.  All you tuggers have given excellant opinions and none of us buy for the same reason,and that is what makes the world go round.   Have a great day.


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## Seth Nock

Hilton has the most availability and is the easiest to reserve allowing you to choose the # of nights (3 night minimum if booked more than 30 days in advance, 2 night minimum if booked less than 30 days in advance).  It has the second most locations - closer in # to Marriott if you count their new partnership withClub Intrawest.

Marriott has the most locations.  The drawbacks are that you must book a week at a time and if you want to go to another Marriott Location, you have to go through II.

Hyatt has great location and a very good point system allowing 2 night minimum bookings.  The problems is it is VERY limiting if you need to borrow points.  Also, if you book airline tickets far in advance, you cannot as you typically get your confirmation 6 months in advance.  Also they don't have that many locations.  Also, a number of there locations are not deeded, just right to use.

Disney (I am adding them) as most people with kids want to go to Disney.  the drawbacks are that you must book far in advance for the most desired times.  It too is not deeded.  It is very easy yo transfer points from 1 member to anouther which can be a great benefit.

Starwood is not that easy to find availablity and their maintenance fees tend to be higher.  They do have incredible properties though.


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## azsunluvr

I own Starwood, so I'm biased. Have loved it!

Curious, though. Friends own Marriott and have a heck of a time trying to get in anywhere. They can never get what they want. Is there no internal trading so they have to go through II, as stated above?


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## ricoba

I noticed while folks like MLC own all the mentioned resorts he/she also has Four Seasons...a name no one has talked about thus far.  

Not that I can go out and get a Four Seasons, but I can dream can't I??? 

BTW, this has been a very interesting thread.


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## Bill4728

Just a word about Four Seasons.   

1. They are the top two rated TS here on TUG.

2. Their units are huge. The studio side is big as some one bedroom units. 

3. All TS as assoc with a hotel so they have room service, great restaurants, daily maid service ect.

4. Bad- They have huge MF almost twice the MF of most nice resorts.


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## BocaBum99

I prefer them in this order:

1) Hyatt.  I love their resorts and the new locations they are adding.  And, I like the point system they created.

2) Marriott.  I like how many resorts they have, but they are not a point system and it is too hard to get a room with a view.

3) HGVC.  Good solid points program and good locations.

4) Starwood.  A couple of the off the chart resorts and a great hotel program.


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## Denise L

*Here's my idea for mixing the perfect timeshare system...*

Combine:

HGVC ease of booking and stays of less than a week with...

Marriott locations, and

Starwood quality of resorts, and

Hyatt attention to detail, and

Four Seasons service, and

DVC's cancellation, banking and borrowing policies, including no fee to book, and finally,

Include a nice gift basket with every stay  .  There! My mixture for a perfect timeshare. Add a beach and I'd have to buy a week or two.

I think that every system has its pros and cons. If there was one great system, we'd all own an interval or two, and then compete against each other for the best weeks. And then it wouldn't be so great anymore  !


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## MLC

deniselew said:
			
		

> Combine:
> 
> HGVC ease of booking and stays of less than a week with...
> 
> Marriott locations, and
> 
> Starwood quality of resorts, and
> 
> Hyatt attention to detail, and
> 
> Four Seasons service, and
> 
> DVC's cancellation, banking and borrowing policies, including no fee to book, and finally,
> 
> Include a nice gift basket with every stay  .  There! My mixture for a perfect timeshare. Add a beach and I'd have to buy a week or two.
> 
> I think that every system has its pros and cons. If there was one great system, we'd all own an interval or two, and then compete against each other for the best weeks. And then it wouldn't be so great anymore  !




That would be a perfect dream.  I can see it now can't you.


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## Steve

DeniseM said:
			
		

> Steve - where did you stay that you found the lock-off to be cramped?  We think the small side of our Maui unit is very spacious, but I haven't stayed at any of the Starwood properties yet.



Hi Denise,

The resort I was thinking of most is Sheraton's Desert Oasis in Scottsdale.  We had the whole 2 bedroom unit, but I gave my parents the larger side and stayed in the small lock off side.  Small is the key word!  The living room and bedroom were both tiny.  I would have much rather been in one of Marriott's studio lock offs for the week than in that cramped 1 bedroom.  

Steve


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## Transit

Starwood,Marriott,Hilton,Hyatt


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## Denise L

MLC said:
			
		

> That would be a perfect dream.  I can see it now can't you.



And I forgot to add,

Resales are treated like developer purchases  . It's a great dream!


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## DeniseM

Steve said:
			
		

> Hi Denise,
> 
> The resort I was thinking of most is Sheraton's Desert Oasis in Scottsdale.
> 
> Steve



That's simple to explain - it wasn't built by Starwood!    They bought it from another one of the big Co.'s, but I can't remember who, right at the moment.


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## mesamirage

*Sheraton Oasis*



			
				DeniseM said:
			
		

> That's simple to explain - it wasn't built by Starwood!  They bought it from another one of the big Co.'s, but I can't remember who, right at the moment.


 
That property was purchased from Embassy if I remember correctly.

Steve


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## DeniseM

mesamirage said:
			
		

> That property was purchased from Embassy if I remember correctly.
> 
> Steve



Bingo!  From the TUG Advice Page:  
Sheraton’s Desert Oasis (formerly Embassy Vacation Resorts Scottsdale)


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## Dean

As hinted at above, it really depends on what criteria you use.  For resort Quality across the board, and functioning of the points system, I'd put DVC ahead of all on this list.  After that Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton and Starwood.  All with the plusses and minuses of course and all with a very close overall score.  But if you manipulated the criteria the order would change depending on the specific parameters.


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## Transit

How awsome would it be if these top rated hotel based timeshares started an internal exchange with each other ?


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## Dean

Transit said:
			
		

> How awsome would it be if these top rated hotel based timeshares started an internal exchange with each other ?


DVC has that on a small scale.  Currently it is with CI and Cordial, included Shell also a number of years ago.  I've said the same thing many times in the past.  The points systems would be the easiest though I could envision ways for Marriott and similar companies to work as well.  DVC actually has their own trading company registered, it's call the Buena Vista Trading Company.  Their contract with II forbids them doing 7 day exchanges with members of II.  I think they should simply drop II and expand this area.


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## KOR5Star

1) Starwood - Because I'm Platinum for hotel stays (wife has plat for 5Star).  I know their TS offering really well.

2) Hilton - Because I'm Diamond for hotel stays.  I know the Hilton TS offering really well too.  Bought Starwood, because it was better for me, but it came really close.

3) Hyatt - Fairly familiar.  A solid #3 IMHO.   

4) Marriott - Know this really well.  I used to be Platinum before I bought Westin and changed my hotel loyalties.  When we decided to buy TS, Marriott was our first choice and we thought we were just doing due diligence by researching the others.  We were surprised by how out-classed Marriott was by the competitors (in reference to what we felt was important).  A couple of important kinks makes this #4 for us.


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## haygos01

*HGVC #1 in my book*

As with others on this thread I too have a bias...

My ranking would have HGVC at the top. The ease of booking, moving from one resort to the next and simplicity of the system speaks volumes to me.  

Marriott may have more diverse resort locations however the ability to trade from one to the other is no where near as easy as booking the resort you want when you want.  

If you are part of HGVC you may have already noticed the ability to view availability for most of thier resorts on line, and in the past year or two the addition of resort affiliates in BC, ONT, NYC, Bermuda, So Cal, Ireland and Portugal.

So the largest complaint I read on this BB is the selection which it seems to me has been heard and positive steps are in play to address this concern. 

I have toured Starwood, and Hyatt and have read the Marriott program as well as discusded it with Marriott owners.

For me:

HGVC
Marriott
Hyatt
Starwood

rank in that order.


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## Ken555

Great post! And biased as anything else here... 

For myself, I own at two SVN properties so I'd have to put SW at the top of my list. I found the comment re small 1-bed's hilarious since the same poster preferred a Marriott lock-off...and it's the tiny lock-off (can you say hotel room?) at the Marriott which convinced me to buy a Westin instead.

Marriott would be a close #2, but that's because out of these choices it's the only other that I know well enough to rate. I stayed at the Marriott Custom House and thought it was a fantastic property (and would love to return). I've also toured all the Palm Springs properties.

Years ago I stayed at the Highlands Inn for a conference. I had no idea where I was going when I left and thought it was a great place and would love to return on holiday. Only after I returned home did I find out my parents spent part of their honeymoon there... So, I can't rule out owning a Hyatt at some point...


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## mesamirage

We have had requests for some type of comparision of the BIG (4) Hotel based Timeshares... so I thought I would revive the thread so we can get some more input and opinions.

Steve


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## myip

I own HIlton, Marriott and Starwood.  In term of quality, the are all compatible. I don't think one is better than the other.

1.  Hilton  - why.. 
    I  booked July 4 week in Hawaii Waikola at 8 months out
    I booked New Year Eve (3 bedroom)  at 10 months out (elite status)
    I booked President week Hawaiian Village @8 months out (still have some unit available)
    I can convert my resale unit into Hilton Honors Pts and stayed in Japan, England and  China.


2. Starwood
    I can covert to starpoints (developer unit) and use it for airline tickets.  It is not easy to book non-home resorts in peak time.  I tried Maui for President week and didn't get it.  I then booked HGVC Hawaiian Village.

3. Marriott
    I have to wait up 5:00am in the morning to get my week.  Sometime, it is not available.   I don't like trading with II.

4.  Hyatt
     Don't know much about it. My unit was exercised by ROFR.  I am shopping for another one...


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## jzirker

*My thoughts*

We've owned at DVC, Sands of Kahana, Club Intrawest, and Pahio.  Intrawest and DVC are tops for us, based on our experience.  Intrawest's selection isn't that broad, but their partnership with HGVC helps them in our eyes.  DVC is exceptional for kid families, especially if you can save points for a Cruise like we did.  Best family cruise line on the planet.


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## mesamirage

New Scoreboard 7-30-07 (Wow! Nobody wants to love on Hyatt... and we personally are moving to 100% Hyatt)


*Rankings*
1st place vote gets 4 points/2nd 3 points/3rd 2 points/4th 1 point

*Starwood 33 points!!*
6 1st place votes
1 2nd place
2 3rd place
2 4th place

*Hilton 36 points*
4 1st place
3 2nd place
5 3rd place
1 4th place

*Marriott 29 points* 
3 1st place
5 2nd place
1 3rd place

*Hyatt 36 points!*
6 1st place 
2 2nd place
1 3rd place
4 4th place


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## Kal

Hyatt is a smaller system and relatively few know much about it.  Once a person becomes familiar with the program they want a piece of the action.  In addition, it is very difficult to get an Interval exchange into the Hyatt properties.  Thus, it's hard to know about the program if you can't get into any of the units.


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## mesamirage

Kal said:


> Hyatt is a smaller system and relatively few know much about it. Once a person becomes familiar with the program they want a piece of the action. In addition, it is very difficult to get an Interval exchange into the Hyatt properties. Thus, it's hard to know about the program if you can't get into any of the units.


 
Give me your rankings 1 thru 4... at least Hyatt might get some respect.    Then I can add your rankings to the rating list.... Steve


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## Steamboat Bill

My wish list

1. Four Seasons
2. Ritz Carlton

My reality list

1. High Country Club (Destination Club, not timeshare)
2. DVC
3. Westgate (Park City location only)
4. Hyatt
5. Marriott
6. Hilton
7. WorldMark


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## Kazakie

Sir Newf said:


> Boy, to me it's like compairing Audi vs SAAB vs Volvo vs BMW...it all depends on what you personally want from the experience.  You can't really go wrong, unless you make the wrong choice for your personal needs: size of unit/points, location, trade ability, type of experience (Vegas vs Mountains).



Right on - the four are really not apples-to-apples at all.  For us consistency (for the most part), choices (multiple locations), and reasonable maintenance fees are the most important factors, which leaves us with only Marriott.

I like Hiltons, but don't care for the big-3 Hilton locations (Las Vegas, Orlando & Big Island) - hello, we're paying a premium for the Hilton brand and the flexibility to travel to other places, if we always want to go to LV or Orlando we'll buy a similar quality resort for much less money.

Hyatt - them and Westin's probably have the most consistency, but also high maintenance fees (well the Four Seasons is higher, but they resorts really do leave everything else in the dust).  Seems Hyatt's strategy is to go where none of the other majors are (Sedona, Key West, San Antonio).  Love the system, but seems they're focusing on Skiing, which isn't my focus.

Starwood - Some good locations, think you pay way more than Marriott (in maint fees anyway) and get only a smidge of higher quality.  We've rescinded on Westin more than once (and still don't own).

For us I guess if Marriott didn't exist we'd probably own Sunterra before buying Starwood, Hyatt or Hilton.  Although honestly, we've suspended any further purchasing of Marriott weeks as we don't want to spend $30,000 until we know what marriotts new exchange system will look like (yes, we're afraid the new system is to enhance the shareholders rather than owners).


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## Kazakie

DeniseM said:


> Bingo!  From the TUG Advice Page:
> Sheraton’s Desert Oasis (formerly Embassy Vacation Resorts Scottsdale)



Embassy Vacation was SunTerra


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## Kal

mesamirage said:


> Give me your rankings 1 thru 4... at least Hyatt might get some respect.  Then I can add your rankings to the rating list.... Steve


 
These are all quality programs but the initial capital cost narrows the field.  Maintenance fees will continue to be an issue, but some are very high for comparable resort quality.

Right now Hyatt has a limited number of resorts but their business plan is to double the number within the next 5 years.  Marriott has the widest variety of good locations, but getting a reservation is extremely difficult for the high demand resorts.  My biggest issue is the ease in making reservations.  In that regard *Hyatt *is probably the best and *Marriott* is the very worst. 

My rankings would be quite different based on criteria.  A ranking on quality or locations or price or reservation system would each provide a *different result*. For some criteria the list would flip.  But once you get past the initial purchase price and annual costs you're left with the basics of the underlying system.  To me, ownership rights to a very specific unit combined with an excellent points sytem trumps all.  If the points system is user friendly and doesn't cause intestinal blockage, that's the most important issue.  In that regard, Hyatt ranks Number 1 for me.


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## jerseygirl

I own Hyatt, Hilton and Starwood and rank them in that order for the following reasons:

Hyatt -- nicest resorts, locations we love, best exchange system, flexibility (unit size / length of stay), ease of use (all online)

Hilton -- great exchange system, flexibility (unit size / length of stay), ease of use (all online), Open Season is GREAT, ability to bank and borrow, ability to convert to hotel points (haven't done so, but might want to someday!), online changeable reservation system.  This is the BEST system, but they do need more locations.

Starwood -- can't see myself ever trading my only "mandatory" resort (Harborside) so don't have access to the benefits of SVN.  Happy with II trading for my voluntary resorts, especially vs. the maintenance fees, but very unsatisfied with the unpredictability of trading power based on Starwood's II deposit practices.  As a resale buyer, it's very hard to be happy with Starwood as a management company and I've been reducing my holdings.

As far as Marriott is concerned ... one of these days I'll get around to buying one but so far I'm only mildly impressed (Aruba Surf Club -- stayed in a beautiful oceanfront unit, but the resort was a little too big/crowded for my tastes; Cypress Harbour -- nice resort, but ended up with a shabby unit; Grande Vista -- much nicer unit than our Cypress Harbour unit, but thought the activities paled in comparison to those at Vistana Resort.  Those are the only 3 I remember staying at, so far).


----------



## mesamirage

jerseygirl said:


> Hyatt -- nicest resorts, locations we love, best exchange system, flexibility (unit size / length of stay), ease of use (all online)


 
Way to go JerseyGirl! Somebody else who understands how amazing the Hyatt family of resorts really is! I wish we could keep it a secret, but slowly Hyatt is emerging. We thought we really wanted a piece of Westin (we think WKV is a FANTASTIC resort and I only have good things to say about the quality of Starwood) but once we actually purchased Kierland we realized how much we really like Hyatt.

I've said it before but the Hyatt locations being built lately are on par with Westin... we also enjoy how Hyatt doesn't build HUGE properties, really except for Coconut Platation and maybe San Antonio (we have never been to either) all the Hyatt locations are smaller and have a cozy personality to them. 

JerseyGirl where have you been in the Hyatt network? Can you imagine if they actually double the number of resorts over the next 5 years? 

We have began to shift all our ownership over to Hyatt... 3180 points and climbing... one more 1880 week... 5000 Hyatt points has a nice ring to it. I hate to have all my eggs in one basket, so we plan to not own more than 1 week at any one resort, in case the HVC network was to "fall apart" at some point.  Note: Rumors are Hyatt has stopped all building until 2008. 

We have been to the following Hyatts
*Carmel *> Amazing resort... historic, view, and location 2nd to none. 
*Sedona* > alittle disappointing, only because its to simple, but how did they get the property in the middle of town with a 360 view of the redrock? If you like Sedona its wonderful, we use it for points burnoff if we have extra points left... been there 4 times.
*Tahoe *> It has it all, lake, seasons, fishing, Casino, hiking, peaceful. If I was to own 2 weeks anywhere, this would be it, if cost is a consideration.
*Breckenridge* > Wow Wow Wow... how about the private movie room?
*Key West* > Beach House (Cozy) Sunset Harbor (location/view/party) and Windward (to close to airport, rooms are great)

So since buying our first Hyatt May 2005 we have seen alot.... This late Oct during Mountain season we are going to Beaver Creek, Park Hyatt, and Aspen in one trip.

So we will have been fortunate enough by then to have visited 10 of the Hyatt resorts!! When do I have time to work?  

Steve


----------



## jerseygirl

Steve --

We've been to Coconut Plantation (home resort), San Antonio (it didn't seem overly large to me -- we had a great time), Breckenridge (you're right -- the private movie room is super cool -- we had a big group and the kids loved it!), and Beach House.  Heading to Hacienda Del Mar later this year.  I've seen Highlands Inn from the outside only -- can't wait to go for a long weekend.  Sent my brother to Tahoe recently -- he loved it -- but we haven't been there yet.

Hoping to get to Sedona next year.

I love the whole program -- I'm sure they're very pleased with my response every time they send me one of their surveys!  My favorite question -- Where would you like to see new resorts built?  I keep answering Europe and the Caribbean .... Europe and the Caribbean ... Europe and the Caribbean!

I want to add more points also ... but I have to get rid of a few units first!  

-- Jerseygirl


----------



## Carmel85

mesamirage said:


> Way to go JerseyGirl! Somebody else who understands how amazing the Hyatt family of resorts really is! I wish we could keep it a secret, but slowly Hyatt is emerging. We thought we really wanted a piece of Westin (we think WKV is a FANTASTIC resort and I only have good things to say about the quality of Starwood) but once we actually purchased Kierland we realized how much we really like Hyatt.
> 
> I've said it before but the Hyatt locations being built lately are on par with Westin... we also enjoy how Hyatt doesn't build HUGE properties, really except for Coconut Platation and maybe San Antonio (we have never been to either) all the Hyatt locations are smaller and have a cozy personality to them.
> 
> JerseyGirl where have you been in the Hyatt network? Can you imagine if they actually double the number of resorts over the next 5 years?
> 
> We have began to shift all our ownership over to Hyatt... 3180 points and climbing... one more 1880 week... 5000 Hyatt points has a nice ring to it. I hate to have all my eggs in one basket, so we plan to not own more than 1 week at any one resort, in case the HVC network was to "fall apart" at some point.  Note: Rumors are Hyatt has stopped all building until 2008.
> 
> We have been to the following Hyatts
> *Carmel *> Amazing resort... historic, view, and location 2nd to none.
> *Sedona* > alittle disappointing, only because its to simple, but how did they get the property in the middle of town with a 360 view of the redrock? If you like Sedona its wonderful, we use it for points burnoff if we have extra points left... been there 4 times.
> *Tahoe *> It has it all, lake, seasons, fishing, Casino, hiking, peaceful. If I was to own 2 weeks anywhere, this would be it, if cost is a consideration.
> *Breckenridge* > Wow Wow Wow... how about the private movie room?
> *Key West* > Beach House (Cozy) Sunset Harbor (location/view/party) and Windward (to close to airport, rooms are great)
> 
> So since buying our first Hyatt May 2005 we have seen alot.... This late Oct during Mountain season we are going to Beaver Creek, Park Hyatt, and Aspen in one trip.
> 
> So we will have been fortunate enough by then to have visited 10 of the Hyatt resorts!! When do I have time to work?
> 
> Steve




HYATT IS #1  cast my vote!!!!


----------



## Kal

jerseygirl said:


> Steve --
> 
> ....I love the whole program -- I'm sure they're very pleased with my response every time they send me one of their surveys! My favorite question -- Where would you like to see new resorts built? I keep answering Europe and the Caribbean .... Europe and the Caribbean ... Europe and the Caribbean!....
> 
> -- Jerseygirl


 
The last two times I completed an on-line survey I received a telephone call from Hyatt Corp the next day. I actually was shocked that not only was there a response but it was from a human. During the conversation the person gave me some great tips on using the system.

Also, it's kind of fun to bait them with that question of new resorts.  I know where some of the new properties are planned so I always add those to the list.  Some day they might call and discuss my wishes !


----------



## mesamirage

Whats the deal on stopping all new building until 2008??  Is this official?  Does it mean Hawaii is never going to happen?

NYC will be a GREAT location....


----------



## Kal

Hawaii is still going thru the permitting processes so 2008 sounds about right.


----------



## TUG Talker

Kal said:


> The last two times I completed an on-line survey I received a telephone call from Hyatt Corp the next day. I actually was shocked that not only was there a response but it was from a human. During the conversation the person gave me some great tips on using the system.
> 
> Also, it's kind of fun to bait them with that question of new resorts.  I know where some of the new properties are planned so I always add those to the list.  Some day they might call and discuss my wishes !



There's very little here on the Hyatt system.  I've read the FAQ here (http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24754) but it's dated 2005...

From what I've seen they seem somewhat ski oriented in the west, w/more eastern beach spots.  

Where's an up-to-date owner-written summary of their program?


----------



## pcgirl54

I own a Marriott fixed week-There are many Marriott locations where I want to go and I mostly trade internally to HHI.

Although I do not know a lot about the other points systems I do have an opinion about their resorts. They do not have the variety Marriott does. I do not like the fact that someone who paid 20-30K or more has a hard time reserving a week. Too many complaints from owners so I hesitate to buy a Marriott HH Os/OF week. Not all Marriotts front desks at checkin are friendly some are fair.

Starwood-stayed at Harborside and next year Westin Ka'anapali. Nice decor and I would love to try a few others like Mission Hills and St John.

Hilton- many are managed not owned. Considered buying on Marco and join pts. Like the SW Florida locations but I am concerned about buying in hurricane locations. Marco Island reps were laid back and no pressure. A real delight.

Hyatt-toured Coconut Plantation. WOW! Incredible customer service from the sales rep.Decor was the best I have seen and it beats Marriott. Did not like that I would have to take a shuttle to the boat ramp and then take the boat to the island. There are only 13 locations and many are in ski areas plus a few in Key West but that is not where I want to go.  I would be interested if they expanded. Carmel location is hard to get but that is where I would want to go.

I did not know if you buy Hyatt resale you cannot do hotel stays. I did like the way you could use points in low season for little cost but I do not know the cons of this system.

We prefer beach vacations and would like to visit Bermuda.


----------



## Kal

TUG Talker said:


> ...Where's an up-to-date owner-written summary of their program?


 
Go *here* for additional details and insights into the Hyatt Vacation Club.


----------



## benjaminb13

Ive stayed in all four resorts

1) Hyatt- most charming -quality resorts- great flexibility- (Havent heard of even  one Hyatt owner being dissatisfied) They could use more resorts 
2) HGVC- quality- flexible-ponts -state of the art- Like most HGVC owned resorts- the HGVC Waikola resort is truly beautiful- HGVC needs to expand its Horizons and start building in more locations- They have 3 basic sites- Florida-Hawaii-Las vegas----- The rest are affiliates- Of course - club intrawest-(I stayed in Palm Desert) is very high quality- I hear Marbrisa will be incredible- Some of the other manged resorts arent as nice.eg: Bay Club
HGVC still trades with RCI- making it very difficult to exchange with another hotel based resort.
3) Marriott- Ive stayed in waiohai- nice I love Kauai- (but not nearly as nice asHGVC Waikola REsort),  and Marriott Newport beach ---- very nice and classy- I have been thinking about ownership but I hear too many complaints re reservations exchanges etc.
4)Starwood- bad experience at Sheraton Vistana Resort- too dated-I hear other resorts are beautiful - but the restrictions  (mandatory and voluntary resorts) really affect the value


----------



## mesamirage

*Who's Now? Ranking Top 4 Hotel-Based Ownerships*

Here is a new update, I can't update the front page any longer so I will update in the thread from time to time.

The rankings are great, but I think the comments from TUGGERs is the best part, it gives us all some perspective on the BIG 4 should we be considering another purchase (Hey name a TUGGER who isn't ALWAYS looking for another purchase, we are addicts!)

*Rankings*
1st place vote gets 4 points/2nd 3 points/3rd 2 points/4th 1 point

*Hyatt 40 points!
*7 1st place 
2 2nd place
1 3rd place
4 4th place

*Hilton 39 points
*4 1st place
4 2nd place
5 3rd place
1 4th place

*Starwood 34 points*
6 1st place votes
1 2nd place
2 3rd place
3 4th place

*Marriott 31 points* 
3 1st place
5 2nd place
2 3rd place


----------



## tomandrobin

benjaminb13 said:


> HGVC still trades with RCI- making it very difficult to exchange with another hotel based resort.



Their website states that they trade via II.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

i used to tell people starwood was the best, but now im not so sure about the outlook, especially for elite benefits..

hilton seems to be the cheapest.

marriott is still week based.

hyatt seems to have the most "valuable?" points, in the sense that the highest-value week can get you the highest number of lowest-value weeks, compared to other hotel TS. although i didnt look at cost/value.

re hilton - i traded in with RCI last August, but when I was at Sunterra Powhatan in March, they claimed it was no longer possible.


----------



## TUG Talker

Kal said:


> Go *here* for additional details and insights into the Hyatt Vacation Club.



Wow...what an amazing resource you have there, I'm very impressed.  Thanks for sharing that.


----------



## duke

1.  Starwood - Elite Program recognizes value of multi-week owners (get SPG Platinum for hotels) - only TS with Elite program, Great hotel points exchange program, Best Hotels around the world, Timeshares in Maui and Kauai are first class.  Easy to exchange with internal system (outside of school vacations), High Maint fees, not happy with devaluation or upgrade change policy.

2.  Hyatt - Easy exchange and reservation system, Outstanding locations.  Reasonable Maint Fees.

3.  Hilton - ?

4.  Marriott - Some very poor timeshares (Maui is a converted hotel in need of upgrade, hallways are ugly, facility open spaces and shops are dark and lonely), Lower Maint fees are a plus.


----------



## Henry M.

I'll echo duke:

1.) Starwood - has the locations I want to go to (Hawaii, Caribbean), great hotels in international destinations, valuable hotel conversion compared to other programs (good if you spend hotel points wisely). Top tier elite membership in hotel program for 5 Star Elite has resulted in many suite upgrades for me (Hawaii, Disney World, Europe)

2.) Hyatt - great resorts but limited locations. I'll buy in as soon as they have more locations.


3.) & 4.) Marriott and Hilton. Can't comment too much on these because I am not very familiar with their programs. I'd give a little edge to Marriott for number of locations, but many seem to like Hilton better.


----------



## ricoba

I vote for Hilton for #1, because it's what we own and like.  The resorts are great, the new tiered resorts are going to be pretty amazing from what I see, the program is very flexible, we can get top trades in RCI, the downside is the lack of unique locations and that RCI doesn't have another hotel system.

#2, I have stayed at Marriott's and think the quality/amenities/rooms etc were very very good, plus they have lots and lots of locations.

I don't know about #3 & #4 since I have never been to Hyatt or Starwood, but Hyatt seems to be the program I would consider looking at if we were to purchase a new ts.

just my 2 cents.


----------



## tomandrobin

I have been holding off on my votes, especially since I had not been to all the different Hotel based timeshares. 

But here it goes..........

#1 Starwood....I do like the flexibility of the Staroptions. They have the locations we want St. John, Atlantis, Hawaii, Arizona. They have nice fall back resorts in case we don't want or can't go to any of the "prime" resorts. The are adding new resorts in the right locations. 

#Marriott....I am giving them the nod here only because of the number of resorts and loctions. I don't like that there is no internal trading system. I don't like that multiple week owners can bump, lock-out single week owners by giving them extra time to reserve peak weeks.

#3 Hyatt....Only been to one resort, was not impressed. System look good, easy to use and understand. Need more locations besides the main three. 

#4 Hilton...I just don't like that Paris girl!


----------



## StuckinChicago

tomandrobin said:


> Their website states that they trade via II.



Where do you see this???

If they started trading with II, I would buy some HGVC points tomorrow!!!!! :whoopie:


----------



## JudyS

tomandrobin said:


> Where would Fairfield fit in here, or is it not considered Hotel based?


I agree with Jya-Ning here.  Fairfield is not really a hotel-based timeshare; they are a "regular" (non-hotel) timeshare chain that has recently added on a hotel brand's name. 

For hotel-based timeshares, I own only DVC, and like it very much.  But it mostly is only worthwhile if you go to Disney a lot.


----------



## JudyS

StuckinChicago said:


> Where do you see this???
> 
> If they started trading with II, I would buy some HGVC points tomorrow!!!!! :whoopie:


I think some of the HGVC resorts trade in II, but not all.


----------



## taffy19

JudyS said:


> I agree with Jya-Ning here. Fairfield is not really a hotel-based timeshare; they are a "regular" (non-hotel) timeshare chain that has recently added on a hotel brand's name.
> 
> For hotel-based timeshares, I own only DVC, and like it very much. But it mostly is only worthwhile if you go to Disney a lot.


I wonder if they bought or associated themselves to or with the Wyndham name so they can compete with the the Hyatt's, Marriott's or Westin's too? 

What do you think?


----------



## ricoba

iconnections said:


> I wonder if they bought or associated themselves to or with the Wyndham name so they can compete with the the Hyatt's, Marriott's or Westin's too?
> 
> What do you think?



I have sort of wondered that too.  But to me Wyndham is a kind of nondescript brand.  It's not like the other four that have a wide name recognition in the general public.  Was Wyndham a name made up by Cendant?  What's their history, where did they come from?

I can't even tell you where there is a Wyndham here in LA.  Other than the fact that the Bel-Age was a Wyndham now it's becoming The London.

Perhaps now with the new branding of Fairfield, they may achieve more name recognition, but I don't think that has happened yet.


----------



## taffy19

ricoba said:


> I have sort of wondered that too. But to me Wyndham is a kind of nondescript brand. It's not like the other four that have a wide name recognition in the general public. Was Wyndham a name made up by Cendant? What's their history, where did they come from?
> 
> I can't even tell you where there is a Wyndham here in LA. Other than the fact that the Bel-Age was a Wyndham now it's becoming The London.
> 
> Perhaps now with the new branding of Fairfield, they may achieve more name recognition, but I don't think that has happened yet.


Only time will tell if they will succeed or not. 




mesamirage said:


> Here is a new update, I can't update the front page any longer so I will update in the thread from time to time.





mesamirage said:


> The rankings are great, but I think the comments from TUGGERs is the best part, it gives us all some perspective on the BIG 4 should we be considering another purchase (Hey name a TUGGER who isn't ALWAYS looking for another purchase, we are addicts!)
> 
> *Rankings*
> 1st place vote gets 4 points/2nd 3 points/3rd 2 points/4th 1 point
> 
> *Hyatt 40 points!*
> 7 1st place
> 2 2nd place
> 1 3rd place
> 4 4th place
> 
> *Hilton 39 points*
> 4 1st place
> 4 2nd place
> 5 3rd place
> 1 4th place
> 
> *Starwood 34 points*
> 6 1st place votes
> 1 2nd place
> 2 3rd place
> 3 4th place
> 
> *Marriott 31 points*
> 3 1st place
> 5 2nd place
> 2 3rd place


 
If I had to vote today, I would also vote for the Hyatt brand of all the well-known hotel brands that are here today. I love the Hyatt location at Lake Tahoe in NV and the Carmel location in CA too and the new locations where they are planning to go to next; plus the fact that internal exchanges are calculated in point values rather than in week to week exchanges. What can be fairer than that as it gives everyone in the system a chance to go to the best location one day if they save up their points? Also, you can exchange through the Hyatt system internally without having to use an external exchange company.

I agree with Cal that the Marriott has a very poor reservation system today if you own a single floating week only because you have to get out of your bed before 6 AM and be on the phone at 6 AM sharp with an atomic clock in front of you on the west coast or at 3 AM in Hawaii to make your reservations exactly one year out to stay at your own resort that you paid a lot of money for unless you bought a re-sale week. We went through this three years on a row without success so we had to call back three weeks on a row to finally get a week at our home resort in our own season. All the weeks were gone by the time we got a person on the phone. We loved our timeshare in the desert but we hated the reservation system so much that we finally decided to trade it in for a fixed week and fixed unit in Maui. I know that we will like it a lot better because our week of March 2009 is already listed in our account on our vacation club web page and all we have to decide is what to do with it if we didn't want to stay there. We heard that the NCVs have the same problems too and even worse yet because their platinum season is way too long. I hope that their new internal system will be a lot better than what they have today.

If I were in the market again today, I would seriously consider buying into a vacation club and not own anything anymore. You stop paying your membership fees and you are free of all obligations right there and then just like with any other club you belong to but you have hopefully enjoyed some of the most incredible vacations while you were a member of that club and it would have cost you the equivalent or a lot more if you had rented similar accommodations privately so you got your monies worth. Some of these membership fees only go up in value over time like some of the golf course clubs or yacht clubs have done too. I see more people wanting to go this way in the future or just rent the weeks from the timeshare owners who have paid the money to own at their timeshare or fractional ownership resorts at these hotel brands we are all familiar with today. These owners are renting to the public because they get more money back this way than trying to get an equal exchange through an independent exchange company because these exchanges are not available because the owners at similar resorts rather rent their week out too. When the exchange fees keep rising the way they are, people will find other ways to get what they want.

On the other hand, I see less perks being offered with the original purchase contract at new resorts so these perks will not be passed on to the re-sale buyer automatically. These perks will have to be bought again from the developer at extra fees, if they even let you do this. Don't kid yourself because the developers are watching this trend already and they will do anything to stop the re-sale market from growing faster than it is already with the Internet. All the developers have to do is finding a better way to market their merchandise to the general public so the gap will no longer be that great between wholesale and retail prices. That would be ideal for everyone concerned who wants to own a timeshare condo in the future.


----------



## JimC

Agree with others who indicated that much depends on where you want to go and how you want to vacation.  For the list offered -- and noting that these are all good brands -- here are my votes:

#1 Marriott:  Consistently high quality product and service, large resort base, good resale value if bought at first offering from developer or resale.  Hurt somewhat by less flexible floating week system, high fees and no internal trade system.

#2 Hilton:  Flexible points system and consistent high service.  Hurt by smaller resort base and inconsistent product quality (last item based on my experience with their hotels).

#3 Starwood:  Only familiar with hotel system where my experience is that it is a solid option and reliable brand; but nothing sets them apart from the competition

#4 Hyatt:  Only familiar with the hotel system and never really liked them all that much -- consistent problems with queues for elevators mar a solid brand.

As others have added DVC to their comments I will add them as well.  DVC has consistently top quality product and service, great flexible point system, deeded RTU program, high resale values, one call for any reservations/trades, but small resort base -- ideal for Disney vacations with nice options for beach property in Vero Beach and Hilton Head, no direct access to II and expensive program.  I would list them tied with Marriott for different reasons.


----------



## tomandrobin

I too would add that DVC would be my top choice, if that was an option. The only two complaints I have with them is number of resorts and high MF's. However, they have consistantly retained their value, even increased over time. Not many timeshares can make that claim. Of course, that will change one day, but when...nobody knows.


----------



## ArtsieAng

I own Marriott's and Sheraton's so I will only comment on those two.

1) Marriott.....for the number of resorts, and their locations. Also, I like the fact that I can book a week, and deposit it on-line into II, without being hassled.

2) It can be difficult getting a decent week to deposit into II. Unlike Marriott, Sheraton space banks, and does not like giving out good weeks for deposit into II. They can go as far as trying to give you a week out of your season, or even a different resort. 

Also, at present, they don't have as many locations. I do however like their resorts. Which is why I bought in the first place.


----------



## benjaminb13

Has Hilton dropped rCI and moved over to II? Does anyone know?


----------



## Steamboat Bill

iconnections said:


> If I were in the market again today, I would seriously consider buying into a vacation club and not own anything anymore. You stop paying your membership fees and you are free of all obligations right there and then just like with any other club you belong to but you have hopefully enjoyed some of the most incredible vacations while you were a member of that club and it would have cost you the equivalent or a lot more if you had rented similar accommodations privately so you got your monies worth.



What vacation club do you like?


----------



## Fredm

tomandrobin said:


> I have been holding off on my votes, especially since I had not been to all the different Hotel based timeshares.
> 
> But here it goes..........
> 
> #1 Starwood....I do like the flexibility of the Staroptions. They have the locations we want St. John, Atlantis, Hawaii, Arizona. They have nice fall back resorts in case we don't want or can't go to any of the "prime" resorts. The are adding new resorts in the right locations.
> 
> #Marriott....I am giving them the nod here only because of the number of resorts and loctions. I don't like that there is no internal trading system. I don't like that multiple week owners can bump, lock-out single week owners by giving them extra time to reserve peak weeks.
> 
> #3 Hyatt....Only been to one resort, was not impressed. System look good, easy to use and understand. Need more locations besides the main three.
> 
> #4 Hilton...I just don't like that Paris girl!



Marriott DOES have an internal trading program. They simply use I.I. as the internal exchange mechanism. In fact, it is likely the most successful internal exchange program among the hotel companies. While Starwood allows a 3 day trade exclusive to Starwood owners, Marriott provides for a 24 day exchange exclusive. Starwood only permits Options trading at 8 months. Marriott trade requests can be made anytime.

RE: multiple week owners "bumping" single share owners, not true. Multiple week owners may reserve 13 months out for consecutive week reservations only. The later cancellation of any one week nullifies the entire multiple week reservation. Marriott releases 50% of inventory for this purpose. The remaining 50% is withheld for single share owners at 12 months. 

So,it is not a cut and dry comparison. Starwood Options are very democratic.  Options are Options.  The Marriott system recognizes comparable value.  The best trades go to the best deposits. Depends on what side of the stick one is on. 

Finally, Marriott owners have absolute control  over their reservations. Once made they may be deposited directly without interference, or substitution. If you own a Hawaii resort, the reservation week is what is deposited. And, I.I. offers an additional bonus week for the pleasure.  Indeed, I.I. offers an AC for most Marriott deposits. 
This extends to the Request First option.  Marriott owners routinely exercise the RF. When combined with the 24 day exclusive on other Marriott deposits, Marriott owners routinely enjoy trades to other Marriott resorts without having to surrender their valued reservation before confirming the trade.

I am not disparaging the Starwood system, just getting the comparative facts  on the table.

Fred


----------



## Fredm

ricoba said:


> I have sort of wondered that too.  But to me Wyndham is a kind of nondescript brand.  It's not like the other four that have a wide name recognition in the general public.  Was Wyndham a name made up by Cendant?  What's their history, where did they come from?
> 
> I can't even tell you where there is a Wyndham here in LA.  Other than the fact that the Bel-Age was a Wyndham now it's becoming The London.
> 
> Perhaps now with the new branding of Fairfield, they may achieve more name recognition, but I don't think that has happened yet.



Cendant restructured in October 2006. It had to shed itself of a name that had become mud in the industry.
It hospitality divison included the following brands:
    * Amerihost Inn
    * Days Inn
    * Howard Johnson
    * Knights Inn
    * Ramada
    * Super 8 Motels
    * Travelodge
    * Wingate Inn
    * Wyndham Hotels & Resorts
    * Baymont Inn & Suites

Wyndham was the most up-scale of the bunch. Took the name for one division named Wyndham International, and placed Fairfield and Worldmark / Trendwest in to the division.

Fredm


----------



## ricoba

benjaminb13 said:


> Has Hilton dropped rCI and moved over to II? Does anyone know?



No.  

Some of the Florida affiliates I believe are dual affiliated with RCI & II, but HGVC is still in RCI


----------



## ricoba

Fredm said:


> Cendant restructured in October 2006. It had to shed itself of a name that had become mud in the industry.
> It hospitality divison included the following brands:
> * Amerihost Inn
> * Days Inn
> * Howard Johnson
> * Knights Inn
> * Ramada
> * Super 8 Motels
> * Travelodge
> * Wingate Inn
> * Wyndham Hotels & Resorts
> * Baymont Inn & Suites
> 
> Wyndham was the most up-scale of the bunch. Took the name for one division named Wyndham International, and placed Fairfield and Worldmark / Trendwest in to the division.
> 
> Fredm



Yes, I am aware of that. But I still think that the Wyndham name just doesn't have the following or name recognition of the other big 4.  At least not yet.


----------



## tomandrobin

Fred 

Keeping the facts straight, as you say. 

Fact...There is not an internal Marriott system. It is not owned or part of Marriott. 

Fact...Marriott does give an unfair advantage to multiple week owners over single week owners

The fact that Starwood controls II trades is a bid downer, especially for those owners who paid a premium price, for a premium unit. Its no wonder you don't see many ST John, Harborside and Hawii weeks as compared to comparable Marriott resorts.



Fredm said:


> Marriott DOES have an internal trading program. They simply use I.I. as the internal exchange mechanism. In fact, it is likely the most successful internal exchange program among the hotel companies. While Starwood allows a 3 day trade exclusive to Starwood owners, Marriott provides for a 24 day exchange exclusive. Starwood only permits Options trading at 8 months. Marriott trade requests can be made anytime.
> 
> RE: multiple week owners "bumping" single share owners, not true. Multiple week owners may reserve 13 months out for consecutive week reservations only. The later cancellation of any one week nullifies the entire multiple week reservation. Marriott releases 50% of inventory for this purpose. The remaining 50% is withheld for single share owners at 12 months.
> 
> So,it is not a cut and dry comparison. Starwood Options are very democratic.  Options are Options.  The Marriott system recognizes comparable value.  The best trades go to the best deposits. Depends on what side of the stick one is on.
> 
> Finally, Marriott owners have absolute control  over their reservations. Once made they may be deposited directly without interference, or substitution. If you own a Hawaii resort, the reservation week is what is deposited. And, I.I. offers an additional bonus week for the pleasure.  Indeed, I.I. offers an AC for most Marriott deposits.
> This extends to the Request First option.  Marriott owners routinely exercise the RF. When combined with the 24 day exclusive on other Marriott deposits, Marriott owners routinely enjoy trades to other Marriott resorts without having to surrender their valued reservation before confirming the trade.
> 
> I am not disparaging the Starwood system, just getting the comparative facts  on the table.
> 
> Fred


----------



## Fredm

tomandrobin said:


> Fred
> 
> Keeping the facts straight, as you say.
> 
> Fact...There is not an internal Marriott system. It is not owned or part of Marriott.
> 
> Fact...Marriott does give an unfair advantage to multiple week owners over single week owners
> 
> The fact that Starwood controls II trades is a bid downer, especially for those owners who paid a premium price, for a premium unit. Its no wonder you don't see many ST John, Harborside and Hawii weeks as compared to comparable Marriott resorts.



OK. We a splitting hairs. Marriott does not "own" the exchange. It does function exactly as stated.

Unfair advantage is a valid perspective. However, there are roughly 50% of shares owned by multiple share owners. The ability to make consecutive week reservations with multiple shares is a service to those owners. Nor can the system  be manipulated. If one week of a multiple week reservation is later canceled, the entire reservation is canceled. 

 The term 'unfair advantage" is not what was responded to. The terms used were "bump" and "lockout" single share owners.. No reservation is ever bumped. Once made it is honored. Nor are they locked out. Again 50% of the inventory is held back for approximately 50% of the shares owned. And the system is punitive to those multiple week owners who attempt to either abuse it, or must cancel for legitimate reasons. The resulting cancellations are thrown back into the pool for owner reservations.

I am simply explaining how the system functions.


----------



## Fredm

ricoba said:


> Yes, I am aware of that. But I still think that the Wyndham name just doesn't have the following or name recognition of the other big 4.  At least not yet.



Right you are. Nor will it. It is not  a hotel brand as structured. Just a Division name. Fairfield and Trendwest resorts are still what they have always been. They are not re-branding them. Just changing the system name they operate under.


----------



## Henry M.

I'm a little confused by the explanations of the Marriott system. Could someone tell me if I understand this right:

Assume I am a multiple week owner with Marriott.

1.) If I want to reserve a single week at my home resort I can do so 12 months out.

2.) If I want to reserve multiple weeks, I can reserve 12 months out from the 1st week, but can reserve consecutive weeks. thus the later weeks are actually reserved more than 12 months out? Or can I make my whole reservation 13 months out from the first arrival date?

3.) Are there shorter timeframes for reserving somewhere outside your home resort?


----------



## Fredm

emuyshondt said:


> I'm a little confused by the explanations of the Marriott system. Could someone tell me if I understand this right:
> 
> Assume I am a multiple week owner with Marriott.
> 
> 1.) If I want to reserve a single week at my home resort I can do so 12 months out.
> 
> 2.) If I want to reserve multiple weeks, I can reserve 12 months out from the 1st week, but can reserve consecutive weeks. thus the later weeks are actually reserved more than 12 months out? Or can I make my whole reservation 13 months out from the first arrival date?
> 
> 3.) Are there shorter timeframes for reserving somewhere outside your home resort?



If you own multiple shares, you may reserve 13 months out, only for consecutive or concurrent week stays. If you own 2 weeks, you may reserve both consecutive weeks 13 months from the date of your first weeks stay.
The reservation must be at your home resort, of course. 
If you own multiple weeks at different resorts, you may also reserve at 13 months, but the weekly reservations must still be consecutive, each at the resort owned (in the season owned).


----------



## tomandrobin

Fredm said:


> OK. We a splitting hairs. Marriott does not "own" the exchange. It does function exactly as stated.
> 
> Unfair advantage is a valid perspective. However, there are roughly 50% of shares owned by multiple share owners. The ability to make consecutive week reservations with multiple shares is a service to those owners. Nor can the system  be manipulated. If one week of a multiple week reservation is later canceled, the entire reservation is canceled.
> 
> The term 'unfair advantage" is not what was responded to. The terms used were "bump" and "lockout" single share owners.. No reservation is ever bumped. Once made it is honored. Nor are they locked out. Again 50% of the inventory is held back for approximately 50% of the shares owned. And the system is punitive to those multiple week owners who attempt to either abuse it, or must cancel for legitimate reasons. The resulting cancellations are thrown back into the pool for owner reservations.
> 
> I am simply explaining how the system functions.



Just busting on you about the Marriott. Both systems (Marriott and Starwood) unfairly punishes their owners. 

Starwood rewards those owners who bought at a lesser season, lesser resort by making everything equal at the 8 month mark. The only way the system can work is by controlling the II trades. Taking your nice Hawaii 2 bedroom exchange and instead deposting that Desert Oasis or Vistana Village unit. Is that fair to the Hawaii owner...no.


----------



## JimC

Fredm said:


> OK. We a splitting hairs. Marriott does not "own" the exchange. It does function exactly as stated....



I doubt that the majority of MVCI owners would agree that Marriott has an internal trade system.  It simply gives one a brief, and very brief, exclusivity window for trading in II.  Even if Marriott still had an ownership interest in II that would not constitute an internal trade system as I suspect the majority of MVCI owners view it.


----------



## Dave M

Call it what you want, Jim. That trading priority is still a huge benefit that Marriott owners enjoy. As long as the trade requested is reasonably comparable to the exchange requested, no non-Marriott owner will have a chance at a timeshare week that an owner seeks.


----------



## tomandrobin

JimC said:


> I doubt that the majority of MVCI owners would agree that Marriott has an internal trade system.  It simply gives one a brief, and very brief, exclusivity window for trading in II.  Even if Marriott still had an ownership interest in II that would not constitute an internal trade system as I suspect the majority of MVCI owners view it.



Question.....

Trading Marriott thru II, does II filter the unit during the 24 day period? Can Orlando trade into Orlando, Can HH trade into HH and does it trade even 2 bedroom for 2 bedroom? If i had a 2 bedroom silver week (low) in Orlando, can I see and trade for a 2 bedroom platnimum (high) in Hawii or Ski week in Colorado? 

I know that the Staroptions are blind, no filters other then just having enough points. So in therory the lowest location can trade in the best location, as long as points enough. For example, Vistana Village can get a Harborside week during the summer.


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## Kal

The discussion about Marriott's "internal" trading system just makes Hyatt's true internal system look golden. 

With Hyatt there is no hand wringing about occupancy of your unit. Unlike Marriott, there's no calling in at the precise second the 13- or 12-month period starts to get a reservation. An owner has a full exclusive 6-months to decide if (s)he wants to use it. If not the unit is made available to all Hyatt owners. The owners have absolute priority reserving any the units where the owner declines occupancy. Subsequently, after about 3 months, any remaining units are then made available to non-Hyatt owners.

I use the Hyatt internal exchange (points) system every year and there has never been an instance where I did not get my very first choice confirmed.


----------



## tomandrobin

Kal said:


> The discussion about Marriott's "internal" trading system just makes Hyatt's true internal system look golden.
> 
> With Hyatt there is no hand wringing about occupancy of your unit. Unlike Marriott, there's no calling in at the precise second the 13- or 12-month period starts to get a reservation. An owner has a full exclusive 6-months to decide if (s)he wants to use it. If not the unit is made available to all Hyatt owners. The owners have absolute priority reserving any the units where the owner declines occupancy. Subsequently, after about 3 months, any remaining units are then made available to non-Hyatt owners.
> 
> I use the Hyatt internal exchange (points) system every year and there has never been an instance where I did not get my very first choice confirmed.



Sounds very attractive!


----------



## Dave M

tomandrobin -

II appiles its "comparable trade" methodology to Marriott internal exchanges. (Note for Jim: "Internal Exchanges" is Marriott's term, not mine.) Thus, a Gold week or even a Bronze week might confirm into a Platinum week and a 1BR might confirm into a 2BR week, especially if there is nothing smaller than a 2BR at the resort sought. II makes the determination as to whether the exchange is "comparable".


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## Steamboat Bill

Kal said:


> The discussion about Marriott's "internal" trading system just makes Hyatt's true internal system look golden.
> 
> Subsequently, after about 3 months, any remaining units are then made available to non-Hyatt owners.



No wonder I have a hard time getting Hyatt trades at prime times with my Marriott!


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## Kal

It's always fun when someone gets into a good Hyatt property during a prime season using Interval. They're unique where everyone wants to know how they did it. Unfortunately, it's a short lived relationship as it's highly unlikely they will reappear at another time.


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## JimC

Dave M said:


> Call it what you want, Jim. That trading priority is still a huge benefit that Marriott owners enjoy. As long as the trade requested is reasonably comparable to the exchange requested, no non-Marriott owner will have a chance at a timeshare week that an owner seeks.



We will disagree on this one.  I do not see it much benefit at all because it is such a small window of advantage and it only applies to weeks deposited.  That negates any classification as an internal trade system in my view.


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## mesamirage

Fredm said:


> Unfair advantage is a valid perspective. However, there are roughly 50% of shares owned by multiple share owners. ...
> 
> ....Again 50% of the inventory is held back for approximately 50% of the shares owned.


 
Fred I don't own Marriott and don't claim to know the system... but my question would be even though only 50% of the owners of Marriott own multiple weeks and therefore only 50% of the inventory essentially gets released/reserved at 13 months out...  I just wonder at the 13 month mark for the multi week owners, don't you think its likely they are only reserving Prime weeks and locations... basically cherry picking the best places and timeframes... so those 50% that own multiple weeks can easily snag up the 15-20% inventory that is the weeks 100% of everyone wants... its not like you would call 13 months out to get an Summer week in Palm Springs at 115 degrees.

Maybe I understand it completely wrong, but going strictly with percentages in this case could be VERY misleading. As an owner of my resorts I want access to premium weeks, and it just seems like with Marriott you are heavily punished for access to Prime weeks if you only own 1 week.

Steve


----------



## Fredm

mesamirage said:


> Fred I don't own Marriott and don't claim to know the system... but my question would be even though only 50% of the owners of Marriott own multiple weeks and therefore only 50% of the inventory essentially gets released/reserved at 13 months out...  I just wonder at the 13 month mark for the multi week owners, don't you think its likely they are only reserving Prime weeks and locations... basically cherry picking the best places and timeframes... so those 50% that own multiple weeks can easily snag up the 15-20% inventory that is the weeks 100% of everyone wants... its not like you would call 13 months out to get an Summer week in Palm Springs at 115 degrees.
> 
> Maybe I understand it completely wrong, but going strictly with percentages in this case could be VERY misleading. As an owner of my resorts I want access to premium weeks, and it just seems like with Marriott you are heavily punished for access to Prime weeks if you only own 1 week.
> 
> Steve



Steve.

Good thought. But, it does not work that way. 
It is 50% of every week. No more no less. At 13 months, a multiple week owner may reserve that week exactly 13 months in advance. 50% of the available space is released for that purpose. The remaining 50% of that week is withheld for the 12 month reservation window.

Fred


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## mesamirage

If thats really how the system works, then I see no penalty for only owning one week... seems like there has been ALOT of post on many threads by Marriott owners who feel like they can't get the same reservations as 2 week owners.... Is the inventory just that tight all the way around for multi week owners and single week owners??

I just looked at your website, would there possibly be any conflict of interest with the fact that you sell resales, that you would want to make things sizzle a bit?  Don't get me wrong, I know if you deal with something everyday you have a much better understand of the systems....  I would like to hear from some 1 week owners and their experiences.

Steve


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## taffy19

Steamboat Bill said:


> What vacation club do you like?


The one that you belong to because I have mainly read about this club and not the others.  We could have easily done it if we hadn't bought our last timeshare condo but not now. We have reached our limit.

Also, someone posted some pictures recently where they were visiting at a beautiful home on a beach on an island. I believe that it was a High Country Club home too. I looked quickly for the thread but can't find it. I call that vacationing in style and prefer a private home over a busy resort. However, we don't need such a big home for just two people unless you go with family and friends. I am sure they would love to come with you. 

If you have to rent a home like that, you pay a lot more than what you will pay with the club. You will get your original outlay back in not too many years and the yearly fees are a lot less than if you had to rent such a home. Our neighbors bought at the Waiohai but stayed at a private home this summer because they had more people than the condo would hold but when I heard the price, I almost fell over. I believe that your club has a home on their list on one of the islands too.

I see more of these clubs coming but you have to do your due diligence as there may be bad ones coming too. I believe that you can stay only one week at a time at one home and that is not a good feature because moving every week is a pain in the you know where.

Timesharing is getting too many fees on top of your maintenance fees if you want to go to a different location and you don't have that with a club. I just enjoy reading this topic and I would have considered joining a club if we didn't own six weeks already and were much younger. 

If you are young, couldn't you own at a club with family members or very good friends and it wouldn't be too expensive. You could go together or once every two years alone. I would take the risk but you have to realize that you do not own a deed and are member of a club and nothing more.

What is the difference really with Worldmark? Isn't that a club too? They have less of a guarantee yet and you have to sell before your are relieved from your obligations. I believe that this is different here?


----------



## Fredm

mesamirage said:


> If thats really how the system works, then I see no penalty for only owning one week... seems like there has been ALOT of post on many threads by Marriott owners who feel like they can't get the same reservations as 2 week owners.... Is the inventory just that tight all the way around for multi week owners and single week owners??
> 
> I just looked at your website, would there possibly be any conflict of interest with the fact that you sell resales, that you would want to make things sizzle a bit?  Don't get me wrong, I know if you deal with something everyday you have a much better understand of the systems....  I would like to hear from some 1 week owners and their experiences.
> 
> Steve



That is exactly how it works.
Re: conflict of interest, and adding sizzle, quite the contrary. The developer adds sizzle. For some reason,they can. I, on the other hand, live or die by my reputation. 
As for my reputation, it must speak for itself.
I am not infallible. No one is. But, I have never knowingly sizzled functionality. Besides being dishonest, it is counterproductive. The good will of my clients is where my referral business comes from. And referrals are the lifeblood of a serious business person.
In fact, the knowledge gained from many years experience is my value-added.
All I have tried to do here is share that insight, on this topic, and others.

Unlike the developer, I have no vested interest in any one product. It matters not to me if you are interested in purchasing a Starwood or Marriott product. I can sell you either. But, if asked my opinion, or if I choose to voice it, it is based on the insight gained over the years. It is not the perspective of an owner of 2 or 10 timeshares, but the accumulated knowledge of many, many interactions on every facet of how these systems work. 

Misinformation, and mis-perception run rampant. Repeat something often enough and it becomes conventional wisdom. Mine is an attempt at stating the issue factually, as i know them.  I make no judgment about it. Different strokes for different folks. I have personal preferences to be sure. Everyone does. I am not stating preference. The only time I have, it related to my preference for food-service. Hardly a topic of heavy debate here.

Some single week owners who cannot get a reservation will "blame" it on the 13 month rule. But, it is no different than a Starwood owner calling Westin Maui at 12 months for a July week and being shut out. There is no 13 month rule. Just more calls than the system can accommodate in a 5 minute period. No one blames it on anything other than what it is. It is the nature of floating week ownership. Owners can be justifiably disappointed and upset about it. But,the problem should be called what it is. Unfortunately, it is human nature to blame something else. Why? Most will not admit that they did not understand that there could actually be more demand for certain weeks than there is availability in a floating week system. They think themselves too sophisticated to miss such a basic concept. So they blame the system for conspiring against them. Besides, many just think it sounds unfair, and that is reason enough to champion the cry of the righteous. It is well intentioned, but  based in half truths and misinformation.

As I have stated in other posts, my personal best interests are better served by butting out of these discussions, precisely because I am a reseller. I choose to post in the spirit of sharing information. That is what TUG is all about. When I offer opinion. I state it as such. And risk being flamed because of it.  Nonetheless it is offered up in the same spirit. If I can add worthwhile dimension to a discussion, it too will stand on its merits or lack thereof.

Fred


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## tomandrobin

Fred

Keep posting just as you have been. We all are expressing our views and what we think is true. I see no conflict between you being a reseller and us. I am still learning every week about timeshares and have found none of them close to being perfect. Each has its own advantage and pitfall.


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## califgal

I think Fred's posts are very informative and he knows the in's and out's of the "big 4". I see no conflict of interest.

I vote for Starwood because that's what I own and love Maui.
I have to say Hyatt is sounding quite interesting!


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## mesamirage

Fredm said:


> I choose to post in the spirit of sharing information. That is what TUG is all about. When I offer opinion. I state it as such. And risk being flamed because of it. Nonetheless it is offered up in the same spirit. If I can add worthwhile dimension to a discussion, it too will stand on its merits or lack thereof.
> 
> Fred


 
Please keep your post coming... I hope you didn't take my post as a flame...  If you did I apologize.  I did state "I know if you deal with something everyday you have a much better understand of the systems" and I believe that to be true....  

Thanks for your continued inputs....  I hope others have found them as informative as I have....  I only challenged the 13 month/50% inventory statements because it is the first time I have heard that vs all I have read previously (and again I am a Westin/Hyatt owner so I don't read on Marriott that much) is how much advantage owning 2 weeks is over 1 week. 

I only belong to TUG for the spirit of sharing... and I think you serve that cause well. 

Steve


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## Fredm

mesamirage said:


> Please keep your post coming... I hope you didn't take my post as a flame...  If you did I apologize.  I did state "I know if you deal with something everyday you have a much better understand of the systems" and I believe that to be true....
> 
> Thanks for your continued inputs....  I hope others have found them as informative as I have....  I only challenged the 13 month/50% inventory statements because it is the first time I have heard that vs all I have read previously (and again I am a Westin/Hyatt owner so I don't read on Marriott that much) is how much advantage owning 2 weeks is over 1 week.
> 
> I only belong to TUG for the spirit of sharing... and I think you serve that cause well.
> 
> Steve



Thank you, Steve.

As tomandrobin stated, none of the systems are perfect. Each has pluses and minuses. We all like our timeshares for personal reasons. That is what really counts.
These system comparisons are really individuals stating personal preferences.
Mine was a bit different. I tried to clarify a couple of distinctions.


----------



## taffy19

Fredm said:


> OK. We a splitting hairs. Marriott does not "own" the exchange. It does function exactly as stated.
> 
> *Unfair advantage is a valid perspective. However, there are roughly 50% of shares owned by multiple share owners. The ability to make consecutive week reservations with multiple shares is a service to those owners. Nor can the system be manipulated. If one week of a multiple week reservation is later canceled, the entire reservation is canceled. *
> 
> The term 'unfair advantage" is not what was responded to. The terms used were "bump" and "lockout" single share owners.. No reservation is ever bumped. Once made it is honored. Nor are they locked out. Again 50% of the inventory is held back for approximately 50% of the shares owned. And the system is punitive to those multiple week owners who attempt to either abuse it, or must cancel for legitimate reasons. The resulting cancellations are thrown back into the pool for owner reservations.
> 
> I am simply explaining how the system functions.


 
When we bought at the Marriott the 13 month booking feature didn't even exist and we were able to get any week we wanted and holiday weeks too that I booked less than a year out. We were not even aware that the rules had changed but we did notice a big difference with trying to get the week we wanted after the first few years.

Now my question to you. How can the 13 month booking feature be fair to single week owners if, for instance, 80% of the people only own one single week but get 50% of the inventory available to them for booking. Isn't there a problem then? It is far from 50/50 because 80% of the people are chasing 50% of the inventory available to them but finally, when there are only 20% single week owners left then they have more units available than they need so single week owners should have the advantage but then the Marriott will change the rules again as they did several years ago. Can you explain why the 50/50 rule is fair and how the arithmetic adds up?

Does anyone know what the percentage is of single week owners today? If it is exactly 50%, then it would be fair but if that percentage is different one way or the other, then you get an imbalance. JMHO. Also, if multiple week owners want to keep the advantage of reserving the most desirable weeks, they will have to keep buying more weeks if more two, three, four week owners are coming in the pool. It is great for the Marriott bottom line but very expensive for the Marriott customer.

What I prefer about the Marriott system is that you can choose your exchange week so your chances of getting a decent exchange are higher with the Marriott than with the Starwood system. These people pay a lot for their choice resort but are shortchanged when they want to make an exchange to a different resort. They are saved a lot of frustration trying to get that best week but at a price. The Hyatt and Hilton seem to be much better here and the Hilton seems to be the most flexible of all from what I have read. What I like about the Hyatt is that you buy a fixed week (which we prefer) but use points for making exchanges so you can save them up to get what you really want later.


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## ciscogizmo1

iconnections said:


> Now my question to you. How can the 13 month booking feature be fair to single week owners if, for instance, 80% of the people only own one single week but get 50% of the inventory available to them for booking. Isn't there a problem then? It is far from 50/50 because 80% of the people are chasing 50% of the inventory available to them but finally, when there are only 20% single week owners left then they have more units available than they need so single week owners should have the advantage but then the Marriott will change the rules again as they did several years ago. Can you explain why the 50/50 rule is fair and how the arithmetic adds up?



I've never had a problem reserving at my resorts.  So I'm not sure I have an issue with 50%.  Everyone always says how it is impossible to reserve at Maui Marriott.  Both my friends that own EOY weeks reserved at the 12 month window for a summer week.  I'm not convinced that all owners lose out.  I think a few complain loudly.  I know one owner complained awhile back he couldn't get reservations and I figured out he called at the wrong time.  He didn't want to admit it though.  I know he called one hour too late.  Because he was on vacation in California but lived in the East Coast I think the person got confused with the time change.

Also, I think you are making the assumption that all weeks are being reserved at 13 month window.  All Marriott says is that up to 50% can reserved at 13 months.  I have a feeling many people use their weeks and doing back to back at two separate resorts isn't as attractive.  For example, I own two weeks and sometimes I want to deposit one week and use the other.  Sometimes there aren't any really good consective weeks that would make it work for me.  So I don't always use the 13 month rule.  

I guess, I have a hard time believing that everyone has a hard time getting the week they want.  I haven't seen it amoung my friends.  So I'm not sure I buy that nobody gets the weeks they want because of the 13 month rule.  But this is just IMHO..


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## ciscogizmo1

For me:

1) Marriott is first.  I like the locations & ease of using II.  I've gotten so great trades through II with my Marriotts.

2) Starwood is 2nd for me.   The resort quality is awesome but I'm not sure if it is worth the price in maintenance.  I love the Maui location however, I want more locations to visit.  It is very difficult to trade out of my Maui location to St. John & Harborside.  So I think their internal trade program isn't all that it is cracked up to be.  I've only stayed at Maui so it is hard to rate this one overall.

3) Hilton & Hyatt... I have no opinion of these resorts.  Other than I think Paris Hilton trashes the "Hilton" name.  Maybe one day I'll get to stay at one of these places...


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## Fredm

*Now my question to you. How can the 13 month booking feature be fair to single week owners if, for instance, 80% of the people only own one single week but get 50% of the inventory available to them for booking. Isn't there a problem then? It is far from 50/50 because 80% of the people are chasing 50% of the inventory available to them but finally, when there are only 20% single week owners left then they have more units available than they need so single week owners should have the advantage but then the Marriott will change the rules again as they did several years ago. Can you explain why the 50/50 rule is fair and how the arithmetic adds up?*

iconnections

Please stop and consider what you are saying. Multiple week owners cannot reserve more weeks than are owned. 20% of the owned weeks cannot reserve 80% of the available reservations. In fact, they cannot reserve more than 20%  Not all multiple week owners will make consecutive week reservation. But, if they all did, they cannot reserve more than 50% of any single week, irrespective of the division of ownership. Mathematically, no advantage is given to them, EXCEPT  the ability to reserve consecutive vacation weeks if they own two or more. Singe week owners do not need that advantage, by definition.


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## Fredm

ciscogizmo1 said:


> I've never had a problem reserving at my resorts.  So I'm not sure I have an issue with 50%.  Everyone always says how it is impossible to reserve at Maui Marriott.  Both my friends that own EOY weeks reserved at the 12 month window for a summer week.  I'm not convinced that all owners lose out.  I think a few complain loudly.  I know one owner complained awhile back he couldn't get reservations and I figured out he called at the wrong time.  He didn't want to admit it though.  I know he called one hour too late.  Because he was on vacation in California but lived in the East Coast I think the person got confused with the time change.
> 
> Also, I think you are making the assumption that all weeks are being reserved at 13 month window.  All Marriott says is that up to 50% can reserved at 13 months.  I have a feeling many people use their weeks and doing back to back at two separate resorts isn't as attractive.  For example, I own two weeks and sometimes I want to deposit one week and use the other.  Sometimes there aren't any really good consective weeks that would make it work for me.  So I don't always use the 13 month rule.
> 
> I guess, I have a hard time believing that everyone has a hard time getting the week they want.  I haven't seen it amoung my friends.  So I'm not sure I buy that nobody gets the weeks they want because of the 13 month rule.  But this is just IMHO..



Your experience is much like mine. and those I know.  
Most do not have any difficulty. It is the few who do that are vocal. Their disappointment is understandable. Any floating week system is prone to this occurring, especially when the season is the entire year, as is Hawaii, for example. Disproportionately, 50 weeks worth of owners want to occupy the same 10 weeks. There are bound to be some who are squeezed out.


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## Dave M

iconnections said:


> Does anyone know what the percentage is of single week owners today? If it is exactly 50%, then it would be fair but if that percentage is different one way or the other, then you get an imbalance.


I don't know the answer, but we can get a slightly different answer - very closely. 

At the end of 2006, MVCI had 349,000 individual owners (per Marriott's 2006 annual report). At that point, there were roughly 534,000 weeks owned (based on the units available [see the FAQs for the Marriott forum] X 51 weeks and adjusted for a guess as to how many were unsold).

That works out to an average of about 1.5 MVCI timeshares per owner, a figure I have heard on numerous occasions from Marriott employees. Since many multiple-week owners own more than two weeks, that would suggest that the number of owners owning two or more weeks is significantly less than half of Marriott owners.


----------



## Fredm

Dave M said:


> I don't know the answer, but we can get a slightly different answer - very closely.
> 
> At the end of 2006, MVCI had 349,000 individual owners (per Marriott's 2006 annual report). At that point, there were roughly 534,000 weeks owned (based on the units available [see the FAQs for the Marriott forum] X 51 weeks and adjusted for a guess as to how many were unsold).
> 
> That works out to an average of about 1.5 MVCI timeshares per owner, a figure I have heard on numerous occasions from Marriott employees. Since many multiple-week owners own more than two weeks, that would suggest that the number of owners owning two or more weeks is significantly less than half of Marriott owners.



If 25% of the owners bought 2 weeks (or more) it would represent (at least) 50% of the sold inventory.
Dave's numbers suggest that the multi share ownership is closer to 35% If that is close to accurate then multiple share owners have 70% of the inventory. They can still only reserve 50% at 13 months.


----------



## benjaminb13

So whats the final score?????


----------



## taffy19

benjaminb13 said:


> So whats the final score?????


Not clear to me either.  



Dave M said:


> I don't know the answer, but we can get a slightly different answer - very closely.





Dave M said:


> At the end of 2006, MVCI had 349,000 individual owners (per Marriott's 2006 annual report). At that point, there were roughly 534,000 weeks owned (based on the units available [see the FAQs for the Marriott forum] X 51 weeks and adjusted for a guess as to how many were unsold).
> 
> That works out to an average of about 1.5 MVCI timeshares per owner, a figure I have heard on numerous occasions from Marriott employees. Since many multiple-week owners own more than two weeks, that would suggest that the number of owners owning two or more weeks is significantly less than half of Marriott owners.


 



Fredm said:


> If 25% of the owners bought 2 weeks (or more) it would represent (at least) 50% of the sold inventory.





Fredm said:


> Dave's numbers suggest that the multi share ownership is closer to 35% If that is close to accurate then multiple share owners have 70% of the inventory. They can still only reserve 50% at 13 months.


Are these two posts not contradictory from each other or do I not understand the math?  




Fredm said:


> Your experience is much like mine. and those I know.





Fredm said:


> Most do not have any difficulty. It is the few who do that are vocal. Their disappointment is understandable. Any floating week system is prone to this occurring, especially when the season is the entire year, as is Hawaii, for example. Disproportionately, 50 weeks worth of owners want to occupy the same 10 weeks. There are bound to be some who are squeezed out.


We are talking about apples and oranges here. The 80% of the single week owners may have difficulty in making reservations in a 50/50 pool. They will get a week eventually but only a small percentage will get the *desired week* and they may have to try several weeks on a row too just to get a week in the season they bought. We didn't even care what week we got so long it was in the second half of February or the first half in March.

On the other hand, the 20% of the multiple week owners have a very good chance in getting their desired week on the first try because less people are competing with them in their 50% inventory pool. Do you get me now? 

The last two years, we got a cancellation that came back in the pool. I have a feeling that these weeks were released by the multiple week owners who knew how to make these reservations properly with *multiple confirmation numbers* so they wouldn't lose all the other weeks that they had reserved at the same time too. It is a horrible system for the single week owner and for anyone, in general, who isn't well informed like we are here.  




ciscogizmo1 said:


> I've never had a problem reserving at my resorts. So I'm not sure I have an issue with 50%. Everyone always says how it is impossible to reserve at Maui Marriott. Both my friends that own EOY weeks reserved at the 12 month window for a summer week. I'm not convinced that all owners lose out. I think a few complain loudly. I know one owner complained awhile back he couldn't get reservations and I figured out he called at the wrong time. He didn't want to admit it though. I know he called one hour too late. Because he was on vacation in California but lived in the East Coast I think the person got confused with the time change.





ciscogizmo1 said:


> Also, I think you are making the assumption that all weeks are being reserved at 13 month window. All Marriott says is that up to 50% can reserved at 13 months. I have a feeling many people use their weeks and doing back to back at two separate resorts isn't as attractive. For example, I own two weeks and sometimes I want to deposit one week and use the other. Sometimes there aren't any really good consective weeks that would make it work for me. So I don't always use the 13 month rule.
> 
> I guess, I have a hard time believing that everyone has a hard time getting the week they want. I haven't seen it amoung my friends. So I'm not sure I buy that nobody gets the weeks they want because of the 13 month rule. But this is just IMHO..


There have been numerous complaints written about how hard it is to make reservations at the Marriott in Palm Desert and at the Newport Coast Marriott too. I never mentioned the MOC but only the two resorts that I am familiar with. Here is even a thread (post #1 and #5) where it was mentioned at the owners' meeting at the MDSV-I how difficult it is to reserve a week.

Do you believe that I would lie about it when I post this black and white in a forum so the Marriott could sue me for misrepresenting their system? Since I have been a member at TUG, we always called the moment the call center was open and we have used an atomic clock too plus used automatic dialing on two different land lines at home as well as with a cell phone. 

I remember posting my frustration while we were on vacation but that was in CA so we didn't mess up the time. There may have been another person too who you are referring to? I checked if the thread was still there and it is and I copied it too so I have a record of it now and I wasn't the only one complaining as the thread was six pages long! 

I even wrote an email to Mr. J.W. Marriott himself and we did get our desired week that year but the problem repeated one year later again so we finally traded our MDSV-I in for a fixed week instead as we prefer it. We hated to give up this timeshare because we love the desert and like going there. Also, the exchanges were very good and renting the condo, in the beginning, was easy and very profitable when we didn't have enough time to use all our weeks but reserving for our own use in late February or early March, the three times we went there, was very hard.  

*Yes, I am vocal about it because Marriott has to solve this problem*. I did a search and found other links too where people complained so I am not the only one. If you want proof, I will gladly provide the links.


----------



## CaliDave

My votes

1) Marriott - locations
2) Hilton - points system is fantastic they NEED more locations in prime areas. I love Maui and Kauai. I'm not a big fan of Oahu or the big Island.
3) Starwood - too few locations where I want to travel. too hard to get prime weeks unless u own madatory resorts or buy from the developer. 
4) Hyatt - expensive.. too few locations, where I want to travel


----------



## CaliDave

iconnections said:
			
		

> There have been numerous complaints written about how hard it is to make reservations at the Marriott in Palm Desert and at the Newport Coast Marriott too. I never mentioned the MOC but only the two resorts that I am familiar with. Here is even a thread (post #1 and #5) where it was mentioned at the owners' meeting at the MDSV-I how difficult it is to reserve a week.



I love Newport, but would never buy, because the platinum season is wayyyy to long.. Summer should have had its own season or fixed weeks. Its very hard to get summer reservations. I know several owners.


----------



## taffy19

Dave, the secret between you and me is that the rest of the year is so much better to go on a vacation here at the coastal communities. I wouldn't go in the summer if they gave it to me but people, who have children in school, need this time of the year. I am not going to mention the best months of the year because that is going to hurt us, who live here. You know what they are.


----------



## ciscogizmo1

Emmy.... Iconnections... 

Sorry I didn't mean to get you upset over this.  Seriously, I disagree and we gonna just have to agree to disagree.  I don't remember who I was referring to in the post about them getting the time mixed up.  So I have no clue it was you or not.  I'm thinking it was something from last summer.  

I'm kinda of a math person so unless I actually see the numbers showing how many people don't get their reservations I probably won't believe it.  You know in fact when my aunt reserved her IMPOSSIBLE Maui week last year she had to change the check-in day from Saturday to Sunday.  She did this a week after that reservation time opened up.  So my point is that for every complaint that you can find of someone not getting their reservation I can find someone who did.  You know what I mean.  

It is definitely a floating week system and yes I do expect that one day I'll call up and they say sorry that week is booked up.  But I'm going on Year 5 and I haven't been shut out yet.  So if it happens a couple times... Oh well..  If I wanted a guaranteed week I would have bought a fixed week or I would have bought a permanent vacation home.  I didn't want either so I bought timeshares..

I'm happy with my choice...


----------



## taffy19

ciscogizmo1 said:


> Emmy.... Iconnections...
> 
> Sorry I didn't mean to get you upset over this. Seriously, I disagree and we gonna just have to agree to disagree. I don't remember who I was referring to in the post about them getting the time mixed up. So I have no clue it was you or not. I'm thinking it was something from last summer.
> 
> I'm happy with my choice...


That is perfectly OK with me to disagree. All of us are giving our own opinion and that makes the forum interesting to read. 

Thanks for your reply.


----------



## Fredm

Quote:
*Originally Posted by Fredm View Post
If 25% of the owners bought 2 weeks (or more) it would represent (at least) 50% of the sold inventory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredm View Post
Dave's numbers suggest that the multi share ownership is closer to 35% If that is close to accurate then multiple share owners have 70% of the inventory. They can still only reserve 50% at 13 months.*
Are these two posts not contradictory from each other or do I not understand the math?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredm View Post
Your experience is much like mine. and those I know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredm View Post
Most do not have any difficulty. It is the few who do that are vocal. Their disappointment is understandable. Any floating week system is prone to this occurring, especially when the season is the entire year, as is Hawaii, for example. Disproportionately, 50 weeks worth of owners want to occupy the same 10 weeks. There are bound to be some who are squeezed out.
We are talking about apples and oranges here. The 80% of the single week owners may have difficulty in making reservations in a 50/50 pool. They will get a week eventually but only a small percentage will get the desired week and they may have to try several weeks on a row too just to get a week in the season they bought. We didn't even care what week we got so long it was in the second half of February or the first half in March.

On the other hand, the 20% of the multiple week owners have a very good chance in getting their desired week on the first try because less people are competing with them in their 50% inventory pool. Do you get me now?

The last two years, we got a cancellation that came back in the pool. I have a feeling that these weeks were released by the multiple week owners who knew how to make these reservations properly with multiple confirmation numbers so they wouldn't lose all the other weeks that they had reserved at the same time too. It is a horrible system for the single week owner and for anyone, in general, who isn't well informed like we are here.


Emmy.

My meaning is simply this:
'Unfair" depends on ones perspective. Mine is that it is reasonable for 50% of the inventory to be held for those who have a desire to make consecutive week reservations. It is likely that multiple week owners control more than 50% of the weeks, but the limit of 50% seems reasonable.

Regarding your perception that these owners are somehow using multiple confirmation numbers to work the system is unfounded. It cannot be done. A single confirmation number is given for the multiple week reservation. The cancellation, for any reason, of any one week of a confirmed multi-week reservation has the automatic effect of canceling the entire reservation.

I do not think you are lying. Your frustration is genuine. I also believe that there are numerous posts which reflect the same sentiment and experience. But, add them all up and they do not represent 2% of the weeks owned. Desert Springs (because you referred to it) has about 33,000 intervals, of which 16,000 are Red weeks.

Your experience is unfortunate. I would be frustrated if it repeatedly happened to me also.  But, it has not. Nor has it happened to the overwhelming majority of owners.  It is bound to happen, however. Such is the nature of floating week ownership.

Regarding the math, I do not know how else to explain it. You keep citing that 80% of the owners have difficulty with the remaining 50% of the inventory.
If only 50% of any one week can be reserved at 13 months, the remaining 50% is withheld for 12 month reservations. 
Multi-week owners cannot reserve more weeks than owned. If they own less than 50%, then less than 50% of each week gets reserved. The remainder is available at 12 months. 
If multi-week owners own more than 50%, that means that single week owners own less than 50%,  but 50% is available to them at 12 months. I simply do not see how this is "unfair". 
My explanation is not intended to diminish your frustration. I just think you are  barking up the wrong tree.


----------



## Kal

Rather than trying to prove or disprove any point one wants to make with statistics, just put the Marriott system to a simple test.

Pick a popular high-demand week at one of the top resorts then try to get a reservation.  Better yet just try to communicate with a human.  If successful, note the time of the call.


----------



## MrTravel

Steve said:


> Hi Denise,
> 
> The resort I was thinking of most is Sheraton's Desert Oasis in Scottsdale.  We had the whole 2 bedroom unit, but I gave my parents the larger side and stayed in the small lock off side.  Small is the key word!  The living room and bedroom were both tiny.  I would have much rather been in one of Marriott's studio lock offs for the week than in that cramped 1 bedroom.
> 
> Steve



I need to second that Steve.  Never will I go to SDO again or any Starwood resort for that matter.  I have been to all four TS presentations and I picked HGVC for all the reasons stated.  My order of preference:

Hilton
Marriot
Hyatt
Starwood


----------



## mesamirage

*Who's Now? Ranking Top 4 Hotel-Based Ownerships*

Here is a new update (8-5-07), I can't update the front page any longer so I will update in the thread from time to time.

The rankings are great, but I think the comments from TUGGERs is the best part, it gives us all some perspective on the BIG 4 should we be considering another purchase (Hey name a TUGGER who isn't ALWAYS looking for another purchase, we are addicts!)

*Rankings*
1st place vote gets 4 points/2nd 3 points/3rd 2 points/4th 1 point

*Starwood 69 points
10 1st place votes (40)
3 2nd place (18)
4 3rd place (8)
3 4th place (3)
*
*Hyatt 56 points*
8 1st place (32)
4 2nd place (12)
3 3rd place (6)
6 4th place (6)

*Hilton 57 points*
5 1st place (20)
6 2nd place (18)
7 3rd place (14)
3 4th place (3)

*Marriott 56 points* 
7 1st place (28)
7 2nd place (21)
3 3rd place (6)
1 4th place (1)

Starwood owners seen stuffing the ballot box to increase resale values!!  More on CNN later tonight....


----------



## benjaminb13

The rankings are a sign of the times.
hGVC and Hyatt are becoming more popular- Hyatt iat #2 is especially surprising- there are so few resorts----
Quality and flexibility-
consumers are getting smarter-
Soon the frustrating marriott reservation system and the starwood mandatory/ voluntary issues will have to be addressed if Starwood and Marriott are to continue being competitive
Only better for us timeshare fiends


----------



## Fredm

benjaminb13 said:


> The rankings are a sign of the times.
> hGVC and Hyatt are becoming more popular- Hyatt iat #2 is especially surprising- there are so few resorts----
> Quality and flexibility-
> consumers are getting smarter-
> Soon the frustrating marriott reservation system and the starwood mandatory/ voluntary issues will have to be addressed if Starwood and Marriott are to continue being competitive
> Only better for us timeshare fiends



Right on! Nothing like competition to get their attention.


----------



## taffy19

Fredm said:


> Right on! Nothing like competition to get their attention.


Exactly and I hope that the timeshare resort developers are reading some of these posts and will pay attention to the consumer as we are getting more informed every day with a forum like this.




Fredm said:


> Regarding the math, I do not know how else to explain it. You keep citing that 80% of the owners have difficulty with the remaining 50% of the inventory.





Fredm said:


> If only 50% of any one week can be reserved at 13 months, the remaining 50% is withheld for 12 month reservations.
> Multi-week owners cannot reserve more weeks than owned. If they own less than 50%, then less than 50% of each week gets reserved. The remainder is available at 12 months.
> If multi-week owners own more than 50%, that means that single week owners own less than 50%, but 50% is available to them at 12 months. I simply do not see how this is "unfair".
> My explanation is not intended to diminish your frustration. I just think you are barking up the wrong tree.


Fred and ciscogizmo1, you and I see our math differently  so I am going to give you an example here and I am asking you or anyone else to correct me, if I am wrong.

Let's assume that there is a pot of 1,000 weeks and 1,000 weeks (50/50) so there are 2,000 weeks in total. From the 2,000 weeks only 800 are highly sought after weeks (just an example here). Each pot gets 400 desirable weeks and the rest are more ordinary weeks. Now, let's imagine that there are 1,600 people, who own one single week only and 400 people own multiple weeks. 

In the first pot are 400 desirable weeks that 1,600 people are trying to get reservations for so 1 in 4 is not going to get that desirable week and there are only 600 regular weeks left for the other 1,200 people in pot #1. Does that mean that 600 people will have to call back a week later or will they get the weeks that are left over in pot #2 that nobody wanted there? These are mostly *ordinary* weeks, I assume.

If that is true, why did we have to call back several weeks on a row a few years ago just to get our week? Why didn't we get it from pot #2 in the first or second week when we tried? If it is true that they are mixing these pots, why do they say that 50% of the inventory goes to the single week owners for 12 month out booking and 50% goes to the multi-week owners for 13 month out booking?

Here is the second half of my example. In the second pot are also 400 highly desirable weeks but there are only 400 multiple week owners in this pot today so each one will get a highly desirable week, if the figures are like in my example here plus they have a second or more chances yet trying to get the week they are really after depending on how many weeks they own. I have read it so many times that this is how it works.

I am surprised that you are not aware of the separate confirmation numbers that multi-owners should ask for when they make their multiple week reservations on a row as I have read this more than once too so they will not lose all the reservations they have made in case they want to change the date of a week at one of the other resorts they own. I even did a search quickly and came up with four posts where this was mentioned in four different threads so you are learning something new from me today.  Ask multi-week owners here. 

The Marriott owners, who own the most weeks, can start making reservations for that very desirable holiday week more than 13 months out and if they book the other resorts first, where they own and leave the most desirable week for last, they will have multiple chances for getting that holiday week that everyone wants but the single week owner only has the chance once and 1 in 4 with the 1,200 owners for only 400 of these desirable weeks. What about the other 600 people when there are no more weeks in that #1 pot? They have to try again or get it from the other pot. I see no other way unless you can explain it somehow?

It would be an interesting question to ask Marriott how it really works. I have another question yet? If the most desirable weeks are taken out of the inventory before the 13 month booking date, are they taken out of pot #2? 

As you can see from this web site here, the person with the most weeks will get the most desirable holiday weeks while the single week owner will hardly ever have a chance to get that holiday week or even a week at all on the first try.  

This came about when Marriott started the 13 months booking feature and we experienced the difference because we owned before this happened and we never had problems making our reservations or booking a holiday week too. JMHO.


----------



## Dave M

Fredm said:


> Regarding your perception that these owners are somehow using multiple confirmation numbers to work the system is unfounded. It cannot be done. A single confirmation number is given for the multiple week reservation. The cancellation, for any reason, of any one week of a confirmed multi-week reservation has the automatic effect of canceling the entire reservation.


As Emmy has correctly stated, Fred, it is easy to get separate reservation numbers for consecutive weeks reserved.

You are partially correct. Marriott - if not prompted otherwise - will include all multiple weeks reserved at the same time in a single reservation. However, the standard recommendation on the Marriott forum is to ask Marriott to make those reservations in separate records, each with its own reservation number. Marriott will comply with such a request, thus providing maximum flexibility to the owner with respect to those reservations to cancel or change one of the reservations at a later date without affecting those weeks covered by other reservation numbers.


----------



## Dave M

iconnections said:


> It would be an interesting question to ask Marriott how it really works. I have another question yet? If the most desirable weeks are taken out of the inventory before the 13 month booking date, are they taken out of pot #2?


Assuming that pot #1 is the weeks available for those reserving 13 months or more in advance and pot #2 is the weeks remaining available for reservation at 12 months in advance, I believe this FAQ quote from the MVCI site is responsive:





> Please keep in mind that a maximum of 50% of the inventory may be reserved by multiple-week Owners 13 months prior to the first check-in day of their requested week. The remaining inventory becomes available 12 months prior to the requested check-in date.


Thus, the "remaining inventory" at 12 months is 50% of the available units for any (and every) specific week of the year.


----------



## Fredm

Dave M said:


> As Emmy has correctly stated, Fred, it is easy to get separate reservation numbers for consecutive weeks reserved.
> 
> You are partially correct. Marriott - if not prompted otherwise - will include all multiple weeks reserved at the same time in a single reservation. However, the standard recommendation on the Marriott forum is to ask Marriott to make those reservations in separate records, each with its own reservation number. Marriott will comply with such a request, thus providing maximum flexibility to the owner with respect to those reservations to cancel or change one of the reservations at a later date without affecting those weeks covered by other reservation numbers.



One does indeed learn new things every day. Thank you for the information. 

Emmy:
I apologize for stating the single confirmation incorrectly. It indeed is a wrinkle that affords a multi-week owner the ability to manipulate the reservation system if intent on doing so. For those that do so, it is an unfair advantage over single week owners.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Steve -

You know my vote already - SVO - of course.  For all the reasons I have stated over the last 1.5 years.

The others?  We don't care which order.

It all comes down to what ones vacation priorities are.  SVO certainly has it's drawbacks - and certainly it's distractors - but it fits our vacation desires best.


----------



## sharktzu

O.k. I'll chime in also although I've already voted with my wallet. All of the systems have their strong points and weak suits, but I like Starwood based on the overall quality of their resorts and the locations they've choosen. I also like how aggressive they've become about expanding and building more resorts. HGVC and Marriott would be tied for 2nd in my book. Hyatt's are nice, but there just aren't enough of them.


----------



## mesamirage

sharktzu said:


> O.k. I'll chime in also although I've already voted with my wallet. All of the systems have their strong points and weak suits, but I like Starwood based on the overall quality of their resorts and the locations they've choosen. I also like how aggressive they've become about expanding and building more resorts. HGVC and Marriott would be tied for 2nd in my book. Hyatt's are nice, but there just aren't enough of them.


 
Sorry Sharktzu... I would like to count your vote, but the Michigan Avatar voids you of any voting privs...  

GO UW HUSKIES!!


----------



## mesamirage

DavidnRobin said:


> Steve -
> 
> You know my vote already - SVO - of course. For all the reasons I have stated over the last 1.5 years.
> 
> The others? We don't care which order.
> 
> It all comes down to what ones vacation priorities are. SVO certainly has it's drawbacks - and certainly it's distractors - but it fits our vacation desires best.


 
David... I'm the Hyatt guy.. and I still voted Starwood #1 myself.  Hard to argue against the quality of the resorts!  It's top tier/top shelf and we like that... its just a bit $$$ but you do get your $$$ worth!! (except for the reservation system... but I won't revisit that)

Steve


----------



## JonathanIT

Kazakie said:
			
		

> I like Hiltons, but don't care for the big-3 Hilton locations (Las Vegas, Orlando & Big Island) - hello, we're paying a premium for the Hilton brand and the flexibility to travel to other places, if we always want to go to LV or Orlando we'll buy a similar quality resort for much less money.


My vote goes to Hilton in a heartbeat... but then again I don't own anywhere else!   

I have to say that downgrading Hilton based on locations is completely unwarranted.  Yes, they have too many properties in Florida. But who doesn't love Hawaii?  And thank god for Las Vegas, because it's cheap to own!  But many have failed to recognize the effort with which they are addressing this issue, and the breadth of Hilton's future expansion.  

*They already added a close affiliation with four Intrawest properties, including: Whistler, BC; Tremblant, Quebec and Palm Desert, CA

*They also have a gorgeous property in Breckenridge, CO, the Valdoro Mountain Lodge.  I hope to go back this year.

*They are building an incredible property in NYC.  I visited the site when was there in June; I'm really excited about this one.  Just a couple blocks from Central Park!

*The Grand Marbrisas in Carlsbad, CA should open next year.

*The Hilton Vilamoura Vacation Club in Portugal just opened.

*Their close affiliation with Fiesta Americana in Mexico now includes Acapulco, as well as Los Cabos and Cancun.

*The Grand Waikikian in Honolulu is going to be awesome! (ok, I love Honolulu).

My point is that HGVC recognizes that owners/members have consistently put expansion at the top of the priority list.  I think they're doing a good job.

BTW, I looked into Marriott when I was in Hawaii at the Grand Ko'Olina property.  I have to say that the property/accommodations are spectacular... but I could not believe that they are on the "old school" trading weeks system for their timeshares.  I would never even consider this, having experienced Hilton's point system flexibility.  That was an absolute deal breaker.

If I purchased at another company, it would (and will probably be) with Disney Vacation Club.  I am a Disney fan and go to Orlando several times a year.


----------



## taffy19

Fredm said:


> One does indeed learn new things every day. Thank you for the information.
> 
> Emmy:
> I apologize for stating the single confirmation incorrectly. It indeed is a wrinkle that affords a multi-week owner the ability to manipulate the reservation system if intent on doing so. For those that do so, it is an unfair advantage over single week owners.


Thank you, Fred. How about my math?  Did that make sense or not? Dave, please correct me if I am wrong here. I assume too that there are less holiday or vacation weeks in the system than in my example but that was for emphasizing my point. Here is clearly where the advantage of owning multiple weeks comes in handy.

I already knew from experience that the best weeks go to the multiple week owners and it was a brilliant strategy for the Marriott to sell more weeks. I am all for the Marriott treating their most loyal customers royally but not at our (single week owners) expense.

My votes go to the Hyatt and the Hilton as these systems seem to be more fair. I am not voting about quality because I have stayed at so few of the resorts. The Westins look beautiful to me.


----------



## taffy19

Dave M said:


> Assuming that pot #1 is the weeks available for those reserving 13 months or more in advance and pot #2 is the weeks remaining available for reservation at 12 months in advance, I believe this FAQ quote from the MVCI site is responsive:Thus, the "remaining inventory" at 12 months is 50% of the available units for any (and every) specific week of the year.


Dave, you had answered my question already in my last post. I had missed your post in the previous page. Thank you. 

It's even more obvious to me now that people will have to keep buying more weeks if they want to compete for the best vacation weeks and the holidays too and certainly when more multi-week owners are added in the 50% pool. 

I still don't understand why we had to call several weeks on a row one year but it must have been that the dates, they offered us, were not acceptable so we tried two times more to get our week in March. Last year, we got a cancellation by calling later that week again as this recommendation was posted here.


----------



## linsj

My vote goes to Hilton for #1. I bought HGVC because the points system makes the most sense for my needs: flexibility to book the number of days I want (with a minimum of 3) without being tied to weeks at a time; getting 3+ weeks out of my 5,000 points every year, including part or all of that in Hawaii (I own in Orlando); being able to see what's available when on the web site and book it on the site; lowest cost to get into.

Yes, I wish there were more properties; and, as a result, I've looked at the other 3 hotel clubs. But none of them come close to the price, flexibility, and simplicity of Hilton.


----------



## Fredm

iconnections said:


> Thank you, Fred. How about my math?  Did that make sense or not? Dave, please correct me if I am wrong here. I assume too that there are less holiday or vacation weeks in the system than in my example but that was for emphasizing my point. Here is clearly where the advantage of owning multiple weeks comes in handy.
> 
> I already knew from experience that the best weeks go to the multiple week owners and it was a brilliant strategy for the Marriott to sell more weeks. I am all for the Marriott treating their most loyal customers royally but not at our (single week owners) expense.
> 
> My votes go to the Hyatt and the Hilton as these systems seem to be more fair. I am not voting about quality because I have stayed at so few of the resorts. The Westins look beautiful to me.



Emmy.
Your math does not recognize that under no circumstances can more than 50% of *any one week* be reserved at 13 months. No matter what. 

I think our point of disagreement comes from which measure is used. 
I am using the percentage of weeks owned. You refer to the percentage of individual owners. 

I believe that if it were an entirely democratic system (which it is not), and put to a vote, each owner would receive one vote for each share owned.
I cannot say for certain how such a vote would come out, but assuming each owner voted their personal best interests, it would likely fall in favor of the multiple share owners. 

Since a system does exist which recognizes the different reservation needs of   multiple week owners, a *ceiling* of 50% of each week seems as reasonable an approach as any. No system can be entirely equitable to every circumstance. However, Marriott's system makes an attempt at it. No doubt, it  is based in part on Marriott's interests as well. 

It is not at all a forgone conclusion that if there were not a 13 month reservation policy that single week owners would fare better at 12 months. They may fare worse. Those multiple week owners can just as easily tear through the inventory. Unless you are advocating that those who own multiple weeks should not be able to reserve consecutive weeks in a single reservation call.  That would really cause an uproar that would be difficult to justify, IMHO.
At least the current system provides an orderly mechanism for the needs of all owners to be addressed in a reasonable way overall.


----------



## Troopers

I'm a newbie and find this dialogue infomative (and quite interresting) since I do not owe a TS.

Does the Mariott 13 month reservation rule extend to owners with multiple weeks of the same resort or owners with multiple one week resorts?

*The below assumes an owner with the multiple weeks of the same resort*
I think it is *fair* for one to be able to reserve multiple weeks (consecutive or not) as *one* reservation 13 months in advance at the home resort.  However, if the owner cancelled any portion of the reservation, the entire reservation is cancelled.   The owner is receiving a benefit as a multiple week owner to be able to book a month before single week owners.  I think it is *unfair* for the owner to cherry pick the desirable weeks and cancel a week without any penalty.  If a two week owner was certain about one week and uncertain about another week, he/she could reserve the certain week at 13 months and the uncertain week at 12 months.   

*The below assumes an owner with multiple one week resorts*
I think it is *unfair* if one is able to reserve multiple weeks (consecutive or not) 13 months in advance at any of the resorts owned.  An owner should only be able to reserve the number of weeks at a resort equaling the number of weeks owned at that resort (in this case, only one week).  I think it is *fair* that the owner be able to do this 13 months out.  This is the benefit of a multiple one week resort owner.

If I'm not making any sense, no worries...I'm a newbie.  Blame me!


----------



## taffy19

Fredm said:


> Emmy.
> Your math does not recognize that under no circumstances can more than 50% of *any one week* be reserved at 13 months. No matter what.
> 
> I think our point of disagreement comes from which measure is used.
> I am using the percentage of weeks owned. You refer to the percentage of individual owners.
> 
> I believe that if it were an entirely democratic system (which it is not), and put to a vote, each owner would receive one vote for each share owned.
> I cannot say for certain how such a vote would come out, but assuming each owner voted their personal best interests, it would likely fall in favor of the multiple share owners.
> 
> Since a system does exist which recognizes the different reservation needs of multiple week owners, a *ceiling* of 50% of each week seems as reasonable an approach as any. No system can be entirely equitable to every circumstance. However, Marriott's system makes an attempt at it. No doubt, it is based in part on Marriott's interests as well.
> 
> It is not at all a forgone conclusion that if there were not a 13 month reservation policy that single week owners would fare better at 12 months. They may fare worse. Those multiple week owners can just as easily tear through the inventory. Unless you are advocating that those who own multiple weeks should not be able to reserve consecutive weeks in a single reservation call. That would really cause an uproar that would be difficult to justify, IMHO.
> At least the current system provides an orderly mechanism for the needs of all owners to be addressed in a reasonable way overall.


OK, point well taken.  Thank you.


----------



## tomandrobin

Since it seems all the major hotel based timeshare systems have thier own internal exchange/reservation system, in addtion to II or RCI, why doesn't Marriott have its own internal system? Have they looked at adding an internal system or did thier use to be one?


----------



## Fredm

tomandrobin said:


> Since it seems all the major hotel based timeshare systems have thier own internal exchange/reservation system, in addtion to II or RCI, why doesn't Marriott have its own internal system? Have they looked at adding an internal system or did thier use to be one?



See page 4 of this thread.


----------



## taffy19

tomandrobin said:


> Since it seems all the major hotel based timeshare systems have thier own internal exchange/reservation system, in addtion to II or RCI, why doesn't Marriott have its own internal system? Have they looked at adding an internal system or did thier use to be one?


Yes, they are working on one and there are several posts about it if you search for it.

Fred, I only see two pages?


----------



## tomandrobin

iconnections said:


> Yes, they are working on one and there are several posts about it if you search for it.
> 
> Fred, I only see two pages?



If they add an internal system, wouldn't that cause problems with existing owners? You have so many existing owners


----------



## Dave M

Marriott's internal trading system would serve all owners. No perceived advantage or disadvantage for existing owners. 

It's too deep for this thread, but, as Emmy has suggested, there are several threads on the Marriott forum that delve into the speculation of what Marriott's internal trading system will look like.


----------



## saluki

iconnections said:


> Fred, I only see two pages?



It depends on how your TUG "User Control Panel" is set up. If you are at the default setting for posts shown per page, this thread is currently 6 pages.


----------



## tomandrobin

Dave M said:


> Marriott's internal trading system would serve all owners. No perceived advantage or disadvantage for existing owners.
> 
> It's too deep for this thread, but, as Emmy has suggested, there are several threads on the Marriott forum that delve into the speculation of what Marriott's internal trading system will look like.



I wonder if allowing all owners, wether developer or resale will put pressure on Starwood to change its system. 

It seems that Hyatt, Hilton, DVC treat owners equal in thier system. Marriott is apparently heading that way. Not sure is Starwood could go back and fix thier Mandatory/Voluntary mess.


----------



## Dave M

tomandrobin said:


> It seems that Hyatt, Hilton, DVC treat owners equal in thier system. *Marriott is apparently heading that way.*


There is no evidence at all that Marriott is or isn't headed that way. As I suggested, you should consider reading some of the threads on this subject in the Marriott forum for more info.


----------



## Fredm

tomandrobin said:


> I wonder if allowing all owners, wether developer or resale will put pressure on Starwood to change its system.
> 
> It seems that Hyatt, Hilton, DVC treat owners equal in thier system. Marriott is apparently heading that way. Not sure is Starwood could go back and fix thier Mandatory/Voluntary mess.



Starwood *could* fix their Mandatory/Voluntary mess in a New York minute, if they wanted to. They could do so within the current system structure.

The only difference between M and V resorts is that M resorts have SVN membership attached by deed. Membership is automatic at transfer of title, and ongoing membership is mandatory. Resale buyers of V resorts must apply for membership. Currently, Starwood is not approving resale applications. They could do so at any time they choose.

Further, the application fee would be reoccurring for all subsequent resale membership applications. There is no fee associated with mandatory resort resales. For this reason, I believe Starwood will, sooner or later, "fix" the current situation. The revenue stream will be too attractive to ignore. 

Currently, the conventional wisdom is that Starwood believes it in their marketing interests to withhold the  membership. I am not so sure that is true any longer.
The recent announcement from Starwood that all future resorts will be Voluntary, may mean exactly the opposite. Since they would not receive ongoing SVN application fees from mandatory resort resales., they just may be setting it up so that the application fee stream from Voluntary resorts will be maximized.

Starwood must know by now that they are earning the animosity of original owners of Voluntary resorts, when those owners discover the devaluation of their purchase at resale.
Marriott owners simply cannot transfer Marriott points at resale . It is not hurting Marriott's ability to sell timeshares. If Starwood would leave it at that, it would not hurt their marketing efforts either.
 Starwood is not stupid. Which is why my opinion regarding  SVN membership to Voluntary resort resales is what it is.

To take one step further, Starwood V resale prices have been pounded into the cellar as a result of the current situation. Given their excellent trade value in I.I., the very low prices are unwarranted by any real utility measure. If I am right and Starwood reverses course, current V resort resales may prove to be the value buy of the last decade.


----------



## duke

Fredm said:


> To take one step further, Starwood V resale prices have been pounded into the cellar as a result of the current situation. Given their excellent trade value in I.I., the very low prices are unwarranted by any real utility measure. If I am right and Starwood reverses course, current V resort resales may prove to be the value buy of the last decade.



I agree!  Buy Voluntary (resale) and Requalify.  You get high value StarOptions to exchange and StarPoints for hotels if you want.  Also, if you can get to 5* ELITE quickly you can get the last of the SPG Platinum for life.

Its a bargain!

ALSO, if you follow Fred's strategy here....I think that his thought that SVO might, at somepoint, let Voluntary resales be allowed in SVN for a fee....they would only be able to trade for StarOptions.  They never would give the ability to exchage for StarPoints or participate in the ELITE program.

Requalify is the better route and can be done now.


----------



## jerseygirl

duke said:


> ...  if you follow Fred's strategy here....I think that his thought that SVO might, at somepoint, let Voluntary resales be allowed in SVN for a fee....they would only be able to trade for StarOptions.  They never would give the ability to exchage for StarPoints or participate in the ELITE program.
> 
> Requalify is the better route and can be done now.



Duke -- your advice on requalification has always been excellent.  But, I don't think most participants of this board put any real value on the Elite program or the ability to exchange for StarPoints.  Fred's comments are not designed to convince people to requalify.

On another note, if Starwood ever does reverse course on resale membership in the network, I think you'll see the price of the current Mandatory resorts decline, and the price of the current Voluntary resorts increase significantly.  Of course, there are exceptions, such as the following:

The "market" valued these 81000 StarOptions at a little over $0.123/StarOption:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110154479609&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=001

And these 44000 StarOptions at $0.29/StarOption:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200136239847&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=010

The first one is a lousy week.  Educated buyers realize how difficult it will be to trade for better weeks.  The second one is a good, but not great, gold week.

St. John will also sell at a premium because the market doesn't care about the number of StarOptions.  People are not buying to trade.

For the majority of the other resorts, there is plenty of great competition in the same markets.  My prediction is that they will resell based on a "parity" StarOption price (whatever that turns out to be).


----------



## duke

jerseygirl said:


> Duke -- your advice on requalification has always been excellent.  But, I don't think most participants of this board put any real value on the Elite program or the ability to exchange for StarPoints.  Fred's comments are not designed to convince people to requalify.



Jersey.....Requalify is value if you can get to 5* ELITE and get SPG Platinum for Life.  

Also, There are some very high value Voluntary resorts that have high StarPoint conversions.  Add to that SVN 10% bonus and the value of buying Voluntary and converting to StarPoints then to AirPoints with 25% bonus and using for first or business class travel is a bargain.

Duke


----------



## jerseygirl

duke said:


> Jersey.....Requalify is value if you can get to 5* ELITE and get SPG Platinum for Life.



Can you point me to the benefits of SPG Platinum?



duke said:


> Also, There are some very high value Voluntary resorts that have high StarPoint conversions.  Add to that SVN 10% bonus and the value of buying Voluntary and converting to StarPoints then to AirPoints with 25% bonus and using for first or business class travel is a bargain.
> 
> Duke



Can you give a specific example vs. the maintenance fee?  I tend to use "upgrade" miles for international and never pay attention to the other options.  Recent example -- First class ticket I needed (okay, wanted  ) was over $12000 or 250,000* miles (lots of timeshare weeks!).  I bought the cheap ticket ($1500) and paid an $800 upgrade fee.  I'll earn almost enough miles to "repay" the 25000 upgrade ... and didn't give up a timeshare week.

*It is possible to get a first class ticket in this market for 120K miles, but you have to be exceptionally lucky and flexible.  If your timeframe is short, you need 250K miles.


----------



## Fredm

jerseygirl said:


> Duke -- your advice on requalification has always been excellent.  But, I don't think most participants of this board put any real value on the Elite program or the ability to exchange for StarPoints.  Fred's comments are not designed to convince people to requalify.



Jerseygirl:

Right, you are. My comments simply point out that V resort resale prices have been overdone.  They currently represent great value, IMO, irrespective of anything else. If Starwood does reverse course, current prices will prove to be exceptional values. I agree with you that prices will rise. 

Duke:

Your point is a good one. But, not everyone is looking to become a 5* elite. Some are simply looking for a single week.  If Starwood  reverses course, V resort resales will be on the same footing as M resort resales. That is my only point (except membership will not be mandatory).

Fredm


----------



## DavidnRobin

There's an idea - buy up all the resale V resorts you can afford at low costs in anticipation of SVO/SVN changing their policy - and when they increase in value from their very depressed prices when the policy is changed - cash in.  lol

I agree that SVO/SVN could easily change their policy - but certainly wouldn't count (gamble) on it.

Heck - I would be glad for them to pay me to opt-out of SVN for our WKORV OF, WSJ, and WPORV VOIs - I don't ever intend to use SVN - why would we?
I find it only useful for WKV.

Fred - you mention before that SVN membership  is 'deeded' with a M property - I don't think that this is the case, but it may just be semantics - it is certainly part of the original agreement signed in the contract.  I haven't carefully looked at our deeds, but I don't recall SVN membership being listed (just the usual deed text).


----------



## Fredm

DavidnRobin said:


> There's an idea - buy up all the resale V resorts you can afford at low costs in anticipation of SVO/SVN changing their policy - and when they increase in value from their very depressed prices when the policy is changed - cash in.  lol
> 
> I agree that SVO/SVN could easily change their policy - but certainly wouldn't count (gamble) on it.
> 
> Heck - I would be glad for them to pay me to opt-out of SVN for our WKORV OF, WSJ, and WPORV VOIs - I don't ever intend to use SVN - why would we?
> I find it only useful for WKV.
> 
> Fred - you mention before that SVN membership  is 'deeded' with a M property - I don't think that this is the case, but it may just be semantics - it is certainly part of the original agreement signed in the contract.  I haven't carefully looked at our deeds, but I don't recall SVN membership being listed (just the usual deed text).



Davenrobin,

It may be semantics. The term used is "inseparable" from the deed. "Inseparable" and "attached" are the words being split.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Starwood to reverse course either.
I am not advocating a purchase strategy based on that happening. I do think that V resort resales represent an excellent value given the beating they have taken in the market. Further, they represent excellent trade opportunities with I.I. (based on the trade results reported on this board alone). That value will be even better if Starwood does what I think they will do. No one should buy any resort they do not intend to occupy.

Yours is an excellent representation of what I am referring to, however.
The resorts you own, you intend to occupy, for the most part. Per your comment, if you could avoid SVN dues you would. Well, if Starwood does reverse course, V resale buyers would not only have the same standing as an M resale buyer, they would also have the latitude to not pay the dues you wish you could escape.

This all goes back to my belief that too much is made of the value of StarOptions. Their absence in a V resort resale does not justify the beating the price has taken compared to the resale prices of M resorts, IMO.


----------



## Kal

An interesting thread where the majority of the discussion is about the problems with the exchange program.  That makes sense as once you get past the initial purchase the most important issue that lasts the life of ownership is getting reservations.  When you pay good money for a premium property you certainly would expect a user friendly system that works for everyone.

Makes me appreciate the Hyatt system all the more.


----------



## Spring Training Fan

I loved the thread and have gained a lot of knowledge on the hotel systems.  I am wanting to get started in one.  I own DVC, but would like to get into another system.  My question is, which one is best for a minimum price?  For example, does everyone feel they get a better value with a very low point value in Hyatt (1300 points) or HGVC (3500 points) or SVO (with 37,000 points) or getting a bronze week in the Marriott system?  What would everyone recommend for someone with no kids and very flexible in travel, and not a ton of funds to buy the platinum of anything?


----------



## Westin5Star

Spring Training Fan said:


> I loved the thread and have gained a lot of knowledge on the hotel systems.  I am wanting to get started in one.  I own DVC, but would like to get into another system.  My question is, which one is best for a minimum price?  For example, does everyone feel they get a better value with a very low point value in Hyatt (1300 points) or HGVC (3500 points) or SVO (with 37,000 points) or getting a bronze week in the Marriott system?  What would everyone recommend for someone with no kids and very flexible in travel, and not a ton of funds to buy the platinum of anything?



I wouldn't buy SVO for the price although that is all I own.  I noticed your blogname and have to say that the Westin Kierland is a great property in Scottsdale.  You could pick up a Platinum 2Br LO resale for about $22k which has 148k StarOptions and would give you 2 weeks (if split) for spring training each year.  MF are reasonable compared to other SVO properties and the resort is Mandatory so you could exchange if you wanted to.  I don't know too much about Marriott or Hyatt but 37,000 SVO StarOptions won't get you much in a direct exchange.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Fredm said:


> Davenrobin,
> 
> It may be semantics. The term used is "inseparable" from the deed. "Inseparable" and "attached" are the words being split.
> 
> I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Starwood to reverse course either.
> I am not advocating a purchase strategy based on that happening. I do think that V resort resales represent an excellent value given the beating they have taken in the market. Further, they represent excellent trade opportunities with I.I. (based on the trade results reported on this board alone). That value will be even better if Starwood does what I think they will do. No one should buy any resort they do not intend to occupy.
> 
> Yours is an excellent representation of what I am referring to, however.
> The resorts you own, you intend to occupy, for the most part. Per your comment, if you could avoid SVN dues you would. Well, if Starwood does reverse course, V resale buyers would not only have the same standing as an M resale buyer, they would also have the latitude to not pay the dues you wish you could escape.
> 
> This all goes back to my belief that too much is made of the value of StarOptions. Their absence in a V resort resale does not justify the beating the price has taken compared to the resale prices of M resorts, IMO.



Fred - thanks for clarifying

Although I'd prefer to forego the SVN fee - it is worth it for WKV - besides it is only ~$130/yr for all of them - cheap in comparison to total vacation cost.  The addition $599 fee would suck.  I think the SVN policy could change and that V resorts can be a value (esp trying to get to 5* PFL as duke points out) - I was joking about buying...  

I agree that SOs don't matter for many (us) - except for WKV.

We bought our SVO VOIs for many reasons, but location and quality were the main reason. WPORV is the only V resort that has a location we would buy (and did).  Most other V resorts locations and types do not appeal to us - and we would only buy where we want to stay even if we wanted 5*PFL.  We bought OF WKORV afterall...


----------



## tomandrobin

Spring Training Fan said:


> I loved the thread and have gained a lot of knowledge on the hotel systems.  I am wanting to get started in one.  I own DVC, but would like to get into another system.  My question is, which one is best for a minimum price?  For example, does everyone feel they get a better value with a very low point value in Hyatt (1300 points) or HGVC (3500 points) or SVO (with 37,000 points) or getting a bronze week in the Marriott system?  What would everyone recommend for someone with no kids and very flexible in travel, and not a ton of funds to buy the platinum of anything?



We too own DVC and enjoy our membership very much. DVC does spoil you as far as timeshares. 

Where cost is an important factor, don't let that be your driving force. Buy where you would want to stay. Look at each system and see if they have the resorts you want in the locations you want to visit. Also figure out what type of vaction you want. For example, we don't ski so it really doesn't matter to us how ski resorts a particular system has. We are beach/sun people and prefer tropical locations for our vacations. If its below 70 degrees out, my wife is cold. 

All of the systems seem to work well, yo ujust need to find the one that works for you. When it comes down to it, IMO all of the hotel-based timeshares are good systems.


----------



## Sir Newf

To Spring Training Fan:  We (2 of us), have found HGVC extremely flexible for 3 or 4 day get aways...Using off-season, 1bdrm, for Vegas, Orlando and soon Maribisa, CA, we have lots of points left over from the 3500 annual- we really don't want or need anymore...the conversion to Hotel points is not great- but it's cool for overnite in NYC (at the US Open)...I say, for 2 adults with flex schedules, 3500 HGVC is plently...map out your vacations with the points- you'll see for yourself if it works...
IMHO, the SVO 37k Bronze may be more limiting, We own 67K Platnium and that works fine, but any less would be tough to eek out several get-aways, like we do w/HGVC, and no conversion to hotel w/SVO on resale....Have Fun.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

Spring Training Fan said:


> What would everyone recommend for someone with no kids and very flexible in travel, and not a ton of funds to buy the platinum of anything?



Marriott SummittWatch Bronze can be a great value for Flex exchanges (less than 60 days of travel). The cost from marriott is only $1500 (total to buy)and about $800 per year MF. This is only good for trading in II Flex.

You might also want to consider Worldmark or Bluegreen as value timeshares.


----------



## reddiablosv

*SVO#1, Hilton#2*

Because you can still pick up these weeks resale on ebay for peanuts without ROFR at mandatory or affiliate resorts on ebay!!! In my experience, Comprable Marriotts and Hyatts sell for more! And the ease in trading just is not  there!   Ben


----------



## Spring Training Fan

Which program is better at being able to rent your unit/points to get enough to get your maintenance fees back if you can't use them that year?   DVC is very good about being able to rent your points to others without any fees and it is easy to get enough to pay for your MF's.  Are any of the others easy to rent the points?


----------



## mesamirage

I own and prefer Hyatt but I have to say my Sheraton Desert Oasis units rent easier and more consistantly for Spring Training weeks than trying to rent a Hyatt premium week.  I have yet to have an SDO Spring training week go without being rented. SDO stands out even more for a great renter is you compare MF vs rental price.  Kierland (just sold) would rent for a higher price but the initial cost and MFs are much higher.... making an SDO rental a much better renter.

Steve


----------



## pointsjunkie

iam not a baseball fan,so please don't laugh at this question,how long is spring training? i am trying to rent a week at sdo from 3/22-3/29 ,it is easter, but it is it also spring training? do people actually come to arizona for spring training? when do these baseball fans start planning for their trip to watch the games? as you an see i am totaly clueless. know all about broadway,but not baseball.


----------



## DeniseM

The first day of Spring Training is Feb. 28th and the last day is Mar. 28th.  The tentative schedules are out now.  Fans are planning their March trips now.  Lots of people  go to spring training and Easter week should be popular.


----------



## Carmel85

Hyatt is Tops for me year in year out!!!!


----------



## DavidnRobin

*Starwood is by far the best!*


----------



## tomandrobin

_DISNEY ROCKS!​_


LOL




Starwood too!​


----------



## ricoba

HILTON IS NUMBER 1

PLUS WE HAVE PARIS!!!!


----------



## Transit

PLUS WE HAVE PARIS!!!!


    :[/QUOTE]

That's a negative in my book


----------



## tomandrobin

ricoba said:


> HILTON IS NUMBER 1
> 
> PLUS WE HAVE PARIS!!!!



Psssst.....I'm not sure that is something to brag about!


----------



## Bill4728

ricoba said:


> HILTON IS NUMBER 1
> 
> PLUS WE HAVE PARIS!!!!



What are you talking about there is no HGVC TS in Paris?    :hysterical:


----------



## thinze3

*What's the point of all this super-sized rhetoric?*

How about we let the owners of multiple different timeshares and those who have visted multiple hotel-based timeshares speak up.

Personally
I love Marriott's for now, but have never been to another hotel based TS except for Sheraton's Vistana Resort. I definitely thought it was a step down from the 4 Marriott's that I have been to. I have been to other independent timeshare, again, they were all lower quality than Marriott.

I am hoping to vistit some of the nicer Westin's in the future. My gut feeling is that I won't come away disappointed.  

IMO


----------



## Carmel85

I love this thread I see we all love our different timeshares no doubt about it!!!


I just wish we all could start our own really good exchange company among ourselves at get ride of II and RCI.

ALL WESTIN,MARRIOTT,DVC,HILTON ,Four Seasons AND HYATT owners all coming together to start a great exchange program!!!


We all can work as one and really make traveling and exchanging great fun for all 5 star timeshare companies !!! Year in Year out!!!!

maybe we can start a really easy way to exchange on this board. Yes there are some areas to exchange and rent on this board but wouldn't it be nice to make it simple

Week,Resort and unit size?


I would love to see this happen!!!! BUT for only 5 star resort and not all the other junky timeshare resort companies out there!!!


----------



## Kal

thinze3 said:


> *What's the point of all this super-sized rhetoric?..*.


 
This thread reads like a bunch of timeshare salespeople at a bar seeing who can outdo the next huckster.


----------



## Carmel85

Kal said:


> This thread reads like a bunch of timeshare salespeople at a bar seeing who can outdo the next huckster.



GOD you are good KAl!!!

Im sure glad im not a agent nor do i work for any timeshare company Im just a Happy Happy Hyatt timeshare owner.. 

Hyatt only raised my MF's 2.5% that to me is like free!!!


----------



## Kal

Carmel85 said:


> ...Hyatt only raised my MF's 2.5% that to me is like free!!!


 
I only wish, I'm looking at *8.5%* for one of mine.


----------



## Carmel85

Kal said:


> I only wish, I'm looking at *8.5%* for one of mine.




What Hyatt??? Florida???


----------



## Kal

Sunset Harbor


----------



## Steamboat Bill

Kal said:


> This thread reads like a bunch of timeshare salespeople at a bar seeing who can outdo the next huckster.



I _love_ this statement.


----------



## Carmel85

Kal said:


> Sunset Harbor



yes but you have a prime location that everybody wants in Keywest and Im sure  you saw all the new upgrades..

kal you need to get on that HOA board!!!!


----------



## Kal

Carmel85 said:


> yes but you have a prime location that everybody wants in Keywest and Im sure you saw all the new upgrades..
> 
> kal you need to get on that HOA board!!!!


 
Agree, Sunset Harbor has the highest owner occupancy of any Hyatt Resort in the system.  However, just because it is in high demand shouldn't impact the maintenance fees.  And yes, there are significant new upgrades, but all those were covered in the reserves for upgrades.  No new monies were needed from maintenance fees.  Go *Here* to see the line item budget breakdown.  As you might notice, Hyatt certainly got their share of the budget.

I sat in on the HOA board when those upgrade decisions were made and in every case the defining criteria was "included in the budget".  If the cost of a particular item exceeded the line item in the upgrade budget it was not allowed.  Good fiscal management!

With regard to getting on the HOA Board I am very satisfied with the current members.  Matter of fact, there is no Hyatt member on the board....all owners.


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## Carmel85

Kal said:


> Agree, Sunset Harbor has the highest owner occupancy of any Hyatt Resort in the system.  However, just because it is in high demand shouldn't impact the maintenance fees.  And yes, there are significant new upgrades, but all those were covered in the reserves for upgrades.  No new monies were needed from maintenance fees.  Go *Here* to see the line item budget breakdown.  As you might notice, Hyatt certainly got their share of the budget.
> 
> I sat in on the HOA board when those upgrade decisions were made and in every case the defining criteria was "included in the budget".  If the cost of a particular item exceeded the line item in the upgrade budget it was not allowed.  Good fiscal management!
> 
> With regard to getting on the HOA Board I am very satisfied with the current members.  Matter of fact, there is no Hyatt member on the board....all owners.



Kal,

Can you get the board to fight HYATT to take off the II charge for your HOA club ???


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## Transit

I'm using the oldest and best points system there is to stay at the Hyatt Windward point 01/02/08-01/05/08 there is no other system that gets you where you want to go and at any resort and any veiw.


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## Carmel85

Transit said:


> I'm using the oldest and best points system there is to stay at the Hyatt Windward point 01/02/08-01/05/08 there is no other system that gets you where you want to go and at any resort and any veiw.



oops!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Transit

CASH U.S.C. 1 DOLLAR=1 POINT


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## thinze3

I think SFX has tried to do somethinh similar to this - 5 star only. Of course there is no cooperation from the parent companies.  





Carmel85 said:


> .......ALL WESTIN,MARRIOTT,DVC,HILTON ,Four Seasons AND HYATT owners all coming together to start a great exchange program!!!
> .......
> 
> I would love to see this happen!!!! BUT for only 5 star resort and not all the other junky timeshare resort companies out there!!!


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## Carmel85

thinze3 said:


> I think SFX has tried to do somethinh similar to this - 5 star only. Of course there is no cooperation from the parent companies.



Very true but who need all those fees like Benji said if we could start with about 12-20 people from all different 5 star resorts we could have a nice little exchange company or group to trade with!!!

so ALL Marriott,DVC,Hilton,Four Season and Hyatt owners lets get this going it can work if we are all welling to make this happen.


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## thinze3

I will be going back to Waiohai in early to mid summer '09 but am willing to try another similar resort in HI at the same time.

I have put this info on Tug Direct Exchange and on ownertrades. I have had a few nibbles.


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## DeniseM

TUG needs an effective and visible private exchange board.  I have heard that one is in the works, but that was several months ago.  The way it's handled now is so archaic as to be nearly useless. I think this would be very popular with Tuggers, if it was set up right.  I'm not talking about TUG becoming an exchange company, I'm just talking about an effective private exchange board  here, on TUG.


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## benjaminb13

thinze3 said:


> I will be going back to Waiohai in early to mid summer '09 but am willing to try another similar resort in HI at the same time.
> 
> I have put this info on Tug Direct Exchange and on ownertrades. I have had a few nibbles.



Ive owned at Waiohai- Nice resort-kauai is beautiful
I 2006 I visited the then--newly built- HGVC waikoloa resort and was really impressed - with this resort and its access to the opulent HILTON Waikoloa Village- I sold my Waiohai and bought waik-

If you have a chance visit there-


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## benjaminb13

DeniseM said:


> TUG needs an effective and visible private exchange board.  I have heard that one is in the works, but that was several months ago.  The way it's handled now is so archaic as to be nearly useless. I think this would be very popular with Tuggers, if it was set up right.  I'm not talking about TUG becoming an exchange company, I'm just talking about an effective private exchange board  here, on TUG.



I agree with you 
What do you think?a Hotel Chain exchange forum- to start-? I would include Disney-
the older exchange forum can be used for smaller timeshares- perhaps?
There is always a need for them--- especially when a vacation is planned around the location- not the resort.


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## Sandy VDH

A year or so later would you vote differently?

Is there an update on the vote count?

I would have to vote

1) Hilton - Great flexibility, best points program, nice units and properties, not resale penalty, a little weak on locations (Paris Hilton has nothing to do with the business, and name by association is not a reason to vote it down.)

2) Hyatt - good true points system, lovely resorts, just not enough of them

3) Sheraton - good system, good locations, a little hit and miss on properties and units, but punish resale purchaser

4) Marriott - full weeks ONLY is a deal breaker for me.


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## jlhorne

Sandy Lovell said:


> A year or so later would you vote differently?
> 
> Is there an update on the vote count?
> 
> I would have to vote
> 
> 1) Hilton - Great flexibility, best points program, nice units and properties, not resale penalty, a little weak on locations (Paris Hilton has nothing to do with the business, and name by association is not a reason to vote it down.)
> 
> 2) Hyatt - good true points system, lovely resorts, just not enough of them
> 
> 3) Sheraton - good system, good locations, a little hit and miss on properties and units, but punish resale purchaser
> 
> 4) Marriott - full weeks ONLY is a deal breaker for me.



I somehow missed this thread the first time. Thanks for the reply.

I bought Hilton after checking all 4 of them out years ago. It seemed that Marriott and Sheraton would not let resales buyers utilize the points system so they were not considered. Hilton was the most flexible so I bought that. So I would rate them the same as you did, with Marriott last considering they don't even give owners priority for their purchased week. Hilton's drawback is that they only focus in a few markets. The affiliates are hard to get into, but possible. 

1) HGVC - most flexible, low MFs possible, limited building markets
2) Hyatt - flexible, nice locations, more coming
3) Starwood - top notch but few locations, punish resale buyers
4) Marriott - best selection, punish resale buyers, weeks only, punish owners (insufficient priority for own unit)

Don't get me wrong - I would love access to locations with all 4. Marriott probably has the best selection overall. I would love to see an exchange mechanism within Tug between the big 4, which was mentioned earlier in this thread. Did anything ever happen with that? If so, it would be easier to own 1 system and exhange occasionally with other tuggers. 

That dream aside, I also also wanting to buy Hyatt but have some investments that have gone south (familiar story). If some things go well I hope to eventually try and purchase into Hyatt. I love traveling west and hate dealing with external exchanges. I also love partial weeks too and Hyatt has some desireable locations and more coming online. I do need to learn more first about Hyatt split weeks.


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## MaryH

I missed this first time around.  I looked into HGVC, SVO and Hyatt seriously but not Marriott since they are only a weeks program.

My rankings are:

1. Hyatt - Pros great points program allowing you to book partial weeks i.e. 3 day weekend or lower points 2 or 4 day weekdays.  I love KW properties and Carmel and had heard great things about other locations Cons: not as many locations as the others.

2. SVO - Pros lots of locations and nice resorts with some mandatory SVN able participate in Staroptions.  Cons - high MF - Westin Kauai is over $2000 for 2bdrm

3. HVC - Pros flexible points program Cons - if you are not fond of Orlando, Vegas and Hawaii, other locations are only affiliates and can change.  Waikoloa is beautiful but the original Hotel was a Hyatt.

4. Marriott - the only one I did not do a tour to find out about the system since I ruled it out for being a weeks only program.


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## jamstew

I wasn't around when this thread started, but I'm really glad that it's active again. This has been extremely helpful to me in considering a points system.


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## Elsie Mae

*Ranking the Top 4 Hotel Based Timeshares*

I am an Owner of HGVC, not any of the other top 3.
But I am very happy with HGVC because of the number of locations worldwide (hotels or club locations).  I will never exhaust all of the places that I want to visit (i.e. Bora Bora and Moorea just added, Conrad Maldives, Conrad Bali, new locations in China, plus all the major cities in Europe).


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## scooter

Carmel85 said:


> Very true but who need all those fees like Benji said if we could start with about 12-20 people from all different 5 star resorts we could have a nice little exchange company or group to trade with!!!
> 
> so ALL Marriott,DVC,Hilton,Four Season and Hyatt owners lets get this going it can work if we are all welling to make this happen.



Sign me up. We own 6 Starwood, 1 Hyatt, and one Aruba (unaffiliated). You have to be soooo particular with Interval's resorts. In gereal though they are better than RCI for caribbean/ski/hawaii. RCI is better for Europe.


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## lizap

We seriously considered Westin, Hyatt, and Hilton.  Ultimately decided on Westin and Hyatt.  My ranking would be:
1.  Westin- excellent quality properties and good locations
2.  Hyatt- very good quality properties in interesting locations
3.  Hilton- good quality, properties tend to be concentrated in specific locations
4.  Marriott-good quality, lots of properties, must use II for internal exchanges

All of these tend to have relatively higher resale values and hold value better.  Rarely do you see a Hyatt, Westin (mandatory), or Hilton in bargain basement.


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## mesamirage

*Top 4 revisited*

Since starting this post 6-7 years ago shortly after our first resale purchase... and now 8+ timeshares later, some bought and sold.  We now would change our rankings based on the enjoyment of the vacations we have had and the value of those vacations to the following:

1 - Hyatt (Fantastic more personal properties) Moving more uptown now in price and product, but many fantastic locations.  We own 2.  Siesta Keys is the single best destination anywhere right now. We have been the last 2 years.  Hard to get into, most amazing resort.  We own 3.

2 - Starwood.  3 words... Sheraton Desert Oasis (SDO) the little trader that could.  Been to Maui, Kauai 5 straight years, all 1 bedroom lockoff trades for 2 bedroom ocean view.  If I don't get another Maui trade for another 5 years we are still way ahead on the value of our vacations and the wonderful vacations.  We enjoy the Westin decor, we own the heavenly bed, we personally have a dark "Westin" like feel in our home.  Our only knock on Westin is the super resort that feel like Apartments.  Rooms are always consistent and fantastic!  We own 2.

3 - Hilton.  A great VALUE play for Hawaii and ownership means you can ALWAYS get in Las Vegas on any occasion or weekend. Vegas all booked up for New Years, E3, July 4th.. etc..  You can 99% of the time rent a room at Vegas Hilton timeshare on short notice for $70-$120 a night.  If you leave on the West coast and like Vegas, this alone is a reason to own.  We own 1.

4. Marriott - A distant 4th.  In fairness I don't own so I dont have a full perspective.  But still, what the heck is Marriott doing??  They still have some very nice locations and newer property.  Its the management of the overall system I don't trust.  We have traded into 4-5 locations over the last 6 years. Newport Beach, Scottsdale, Palm Springs, Manor Club, and Hilton Head.  Would never own personally and I think their lighter decor feels cheap.  Sorry Marriott owners, I dont own so its just my limited perspective.

Whatever you own... Enjoy as many vacations as you can!!


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## thinze3

lizap said:


> .............
> 4.  Marriott-good quality, lots of properties, must use II for internal exchanges




You do know that Marriott has it's own points program now, and that all reservations within this program are done internally, not through II?


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## mesamirage

MaryH said:


> I missed this first time around.  I looked into HGVC, SVO and Hyatt seriously but not Marriott since they are only a weeks program.
> 
> My rankings are:
> 
> 1. Hyatt - Pros great points program allowing you to book partial weeks i.e. 3 day weekend or lower points 2 or 4 day weekdays.  I love KW properties and Carmel and had heard great things about other locations Cons: not as many locations as the others.



**Hyatt is adding some great locations.. Siesta Keys recently, Miami, and now a NEW Maui location is being built!!**


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## lizap

Unfortunately, if you buy resale with Marriott, you don't have access to DC points, which is a big disadvantage.  At least with Starwood you can buy at a mandatory property and internally trade with other Starwood properties.  With Hyatt or Hilton, if you have enough points, you can internally trade anywhere.  This seems to be a big disadvantage from a relative standpoint unless you are buying to stay at the same TS every year or you externally trade through II  (which some on the Marriott forum are saying it is becoming increasingly more difficult).  Even if you are lucky enough to be able to buy points, the cost of the number required at a Marriott in Hawaii is quite expensive relative to the others mentioned with the exception of Hyatt, which doesn't have a property there yet (in the process of development).


[/B]OTE=thinze3;1481717]You do know that Marriott has it's own points program now, and that all reservations within this program are done internally, not through II?[/QUOTE]


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## advocoach

*Updated ranking possible?*

Deleted......


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## DeniseM

This is an open thread, where anyone can express their opinion.


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## texascowboy

We own Hyatt, Marriott and Hilton. None of the hotel based systems have the quality of resorts that Hyatt does. Siesta Key, Aspen, Park Hyatt Beaver Creek, Maui and Sunset Harbor are amazing resorts. Some of them would be above 5 star or 5 Diamond. My only complaint with Hyatt is limited locations. Marriott has nice properties and lots of locations. They also have activities that are very good at most resorts. Hilton has the best website and booking sytem. We love to be able to book 12 nights or more and stay in the same room. We also love Vegas and Hilton has several properties there. Starwood has nice properties. Second to Hyatt. Overall I rank them 1-Hyatt, 2-Hilton, 3-Marriott and 4-Starwood.


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## mesamirage

mesamirage said:


> **Hyatt is adding some great locations.. Siesta Keys recently, Miami, and now a NEW Maui location is being built!!**


Hyatt's New Maui Location is Amazing!  Does another 5 star Quality resort for Hyatt Raise their ranking?


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## Sandy VDH

HGVC is also suppose to be getting a Maui location.  They have the land, But Maui politics is the issue, permitting is always the issue in Maui these days.


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## dioxide45

Was this ever a poll at one point? Seems some of the early threads indicate this may have been a poll, but I don't see it. Perhaps it was removed when transferred to Xenforo?


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## mesamirage

dioxide45 said:


> Was this ever a poll at one point? Seems some of the early threads indicate this may have been a poll, but I don't see it. Perhaps it was removed when transferred to Xenforo?



I never setup a poll... back when I started the post I am not sure there was the option, I would just tally the numbers every few months.   We should start a new poll and see where things are now for voting.


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## lizap

texascowboy said:


> We own Hyatt, Marriott and Hilton. None of the hotel based systems have the quality of resorts that Hyatt does. Siesta Key, Aspen, Park Hyatt Beaver Creek, Maui and Sunset Harbor are amazing resorts. Some of them would be above 5 star or 5 Diamond. My only complaint with Hyatt is limited locations. Marriott has nice properties and lots of locations. They also have activities that are very good at most resorts. Hilton has the best website and booking sytem. We love to be able to book 12 nights or more and stay in the same room. We also love Vegas and Hilton has several properties there. Starwood has nice properties. Second to Hyatt. Overall I rank them 1-Hyatt, 2-Hilton, 3-Marriott and 4-Starwood.




Four years later, my ranking has changed slightly. I would now place Hyatt first because of resort quality and unique locations. Westin drops to second, although still a strong showing. Marriott comes in third. Quality is generally a half notch below Hyatt and Westin, but very good locations. Hilton drops to fourth. Good locations, but resort quality is generally a half notch below that of Marriott.


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## TUGBrian

wanted to update this thread to include the "new" chart for comparison we have created to update this very old chart!

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare-system-comparison-chart.html

(forgive if its still missing a BINGO entry here and there, but its 95% complete!)


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## WalnutBaron

TUGBrian said:


> wanted to update this thread to include the "new" chart for comparison we have created to update this very old chart!
> 
> http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare-system-comparison-chart.html



Great job, Brian--and thanks so much! One could quibble with certain particulars here and there, but this is an excellent snapshot of the diverse and varied timeshare systems and provides a shorthand comparison of the various systems. Well done!


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## TUGBrian

oh there has been plenty of quibbling! =D

its been a fun project for sure!  gotten so much help from members in creating this and hashing out the details!


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## macmanrider

Steamboat Bill said:


> This is a great thread, but it still comes down to, "Where do you want to visit?"
> 
> I visit Disney World often, thus I own a DVC and think they have the BEST system for Orlando, but it is not so good for trading.
> 
> I like to ski once a year, thus I own a Westgate Park City because I liked the location and units better than the other two Marriotts in Park City.
> 
> I want to buy a Marriott Williamsburgh, so I can play golf and then trade to other Marriott locations.
> 
> I think Hilton, Hyatt, and Starwood are fine TS companies, the only problem was a LACK of locations I was interested in. I would love to buy Hyatt, if they expand to another 15 locations or so.


I agree with you buy where you want to vacation. Both my timeshares have day use 1 is close to home.


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