# Teacher suspended for giving a 0



## spirits (Jun 3, 2012)

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news...+hero+fight+high+standards/6710502/story.html

Sometimes I just want to cry. Although I do not know this teacher, I live in Edmonton and teach in a school division just outside the city.  Our school board has the same policy but we are "strongly encouraged" to follow this enlightened policy.  If not, we are considered dinosaurs and not worthy of teaching the upcoming students who think "differently" than the students of the past.
This story just broke on Thurs and I am following it closely. I am in contact with my school trustee from where I live not from where I work.
On the day the story broke, our principal emailed the story to all his staff with an "interesting" comment attached.  I think he was supportive of the suspension but a local poll records 97% of the public support the teacher.  Sad thing is that Alberta is ranked second in the world (after Finland) in education.  NOT DUE TO THIS FLAWED POLICY but in spite of it.  
I would love to hear your opinions on this.  I have only a few years left to teach but I would leave tomorrow if I had to give inflated grades like this.


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## caribbeansun (Jun 3, 2012)

I read that article last week while traveling to Calgary.

An ongoing comment that I've had with my friends about the "feel good" nature of our education system is that while having a good self-esteem is fine and well we can't help but wonder how much good it does kids when they get out in the real world and find out they aren't "all that" or haven't experienced what it's like to lose, how to do so gracefully and with dignity.  I can't help but think a good amount of the entitlement attitude stems from this.


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## NEGreyhound (Jun 3, 2012)

*Sero is a number*

If the teacher did indeed give the students the opportunity to do make up tests, exams, etc and allowed extra time for late work to be passed in and the students still did not complete the work then the zero was perhaps an appropriate mark.
Some people, especially educators who are not in the classroom but are policy makers believe that zero is an unacceptable mark. 
Assuming that what was printed in the story are the facts there is a story to be told. 
How many chances and opportunities need to be given to a particular student. How much time and effort needs to be expended for every student in this situation? There are many legitimate excuses for why a student didn't complete every activity or project or test, etc. The question is when is enough - enough?
How do you seperate students from the general feeling of entitlement to do whatever they want, when they want, with no fear of consequences? Consequences are a part of life. There are so many positive stories to be told about student/teacher experiences in the school system but the general concensus is that whenever there is a story - the teacher is wrong. Teachers don't want/need the hassles with standing up to their Principals who are being pressured by their Supervisors. There are very big carpets in most schools and a lot of educators have brooms!
Creating timelines, deadlines, time management skills and student responsibility are a few of the many things students are taught throughout their school experience.
Most teachers are too afraid of giving a zero to a student, whether it is deserved or not. Many will argue that it is never acceptable even when it appears to be the last option. Many teachers just don't want the hassle and comdenation that will be hurled upon them because of this.
Zeros should not be the first option for student/teachers but if all other attempts of remediation fail zero is a number and does reflect sometimes, some students effort on a particular task.


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## bogey21 (Jun 3, 2012)

NEGreyhound said:


> If the teacher did indeed give the students the opportunity to do make up tests, exams, etc and allowed extra time for late work to be passed in and the students still did not complete the work then the zero was perhaps an appropriate mark.



Early in my college career (in the late 50s) I received a zero for an entire course.  The school used number grades, not A through F, etc.  I thought about it for awhile; figured I deserved it; changed my attitude; and ended up graduating with Honors.  If I had been given a 60 (I think 60 was like a D), who knows what my college career would have looked like.

George


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## Paumavista (Jun 3, 2012)

*WHAT????*

I am too old - if you fail to do the work you fail.  If you fail to do the work on time you fail.  If you fail to do the work correctly you fail......what part of do the work, do it right, turn it in on time don't we get?

The tail is wagging the dog!

The $$$ is controlling the business - if schools pass students they get funding.

Everyone gets a medal on the team (on every team), everyone gets an award in the classroom (in the entire school) - it doesn't mean anything - you don't have to work harder, or study more, you don't have to be the best!

It's no wonder the US is having trouble finding and keeping hard working, smart, dedicated employees.........they're all too busy getting awards for just existing.


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## Sandi Bo (Jun 3, 2012)

*Give them what they deserve!*

I support giving kids what they deserve, and if it's a zero, it's a zero. My experience has been that teachers with strict grading policy make their policies known on the first day of class.  Kids know what they can and cannot get away with. 

All kids are different, my first 2 were no problem, number 3 pushed every limit, is very intelligent, but made it a game to push the limits and only do what was required of him.  If he was in a class and could afford to take a 60 (and not do anything) and still get a B or a C - he'd have skated.  In Chemistry he would help his girlfriend do the extra credit work, but he wouldn't turn it in for himself. Why? He already had an A, he didn't need the extra credit. In Math, turning in homework didn't count towards his grade. He was working for 100% zeros in homework because the homework grade didn't matter. He was upset when the teacher noticed he did his homework and marked it complete - ruined his "losing streak".

My first two didn't need the structure and the rules, but number 3 - you bet. He needed teachers with strict, well known rules, feel good doesn't work for him.

Parents need to support the schools, schools need to support the parents.


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## mdurette (Jun 3, 2012)

I recall in highschool (private college prep school) I received a book report back.   I received a 3 on it out of 100!   (I will admit, English wasn't my thing and I probably just scanned the book (or the cliff notes!) and put the paper together.

I went to the teacher after class and agreed to review it.  I got it back the next day, the 3 was crossed out and it was changed to a 7!

All our grades counted in the average.  I remember working the numbers and even if I got 100 on the next 2 tests, there was no way I was going to get my average up to the needed 70.   

Solution:  I extra credit assignments out my whazoo that I had to do.

And here I am 25 years later with that still as one of the few memories I have taken away from those years.


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## rapmarks (Jun 3, 2012)

we had a policy that if students passed one quarter and the final, they had to pass the course.  Actually had students do absolutely nothing first quarter, get a 60% second quarter and 60% on the final.  they repeated the process second semester and then did the same thing the next year.   A teacher woud come up to me and say he doesn't know how to do this or that, didn't you teach it last year.  Well yes, that was taught the quarter he took off.  Also, the state tests, well sorry, we emphasized pursuasive writing third quarter, he can't pass the test on that because he didn't participate.
add that zero policy to that and you find out why some people get thru school without learning anything.


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## Kal (Jun 3, 2012)

Just another aspect of the "Millennial Generation". Everyone's a winner!


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## Tia (Jun 3, 2012)

Our school district talked about a policy where there is no hard deadline, if a student turns things in late they still get credit.  Talk about coddling! Luckily my kids have graduated and for me this is just not right imo.


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## Sandi Bo (Jun 3, 2012)

The teacher that was suspended sounds to me like he has fair and appropriate policies to allow for a student to salvage a grade.

IMO, most peolple, even as adults, need deadlines and consequences. I know I do.  

Do you think we could get our utility companies or banks to waive late fees and interest fees if we miss our due dates?  It hurts my feeling when I get overdraft charges on my bank account.


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## am1 (Jun 3, 2012)

Teachers should be free to give students the grades they deserve. 

Though teachers should follow the policies they are given.

Teachers as well as students should be easily fired/expelled instead of ruining the learning experience for the majority.


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## Patri (Jun 3, 2012)

mdurette said:


> I recall in highschool (private college prep school) I received a book report back.   I received a 3 on it out of 100!   (I will admit, English wasn't my thing and I probably just scanned the book (or the cliff notes!) and put the paper together.
> 
> I went to the teacher after class and agreed to review it.  I got it back the next day, the 3 was crossed out and it was changed to a 7!



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 
I like this teacher. Can't be bamboozled. Need more of them.


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## spirits (Jun 3, 2012)

*I originated this post*

I teach English in a high school nearby and try to get my grade 10 students to keep to a schedule.  I have a world class athlete who I make accommodations for, and others have been ill for an extended time or involved in band/drama  productions out of the city or over 2-3 days and I give them extentions.  I even incorporate family holidays during school days even though that is becoming more and more of a chore because families do not just extend school holidays for a few days but quite often take their children out of class for weeks on end for a cheap holiday.  In a grade 12 diploma course that is an incredible amount of time for students to make up work for and those teachers are under tremendous pressure to keep their marks high.
However, we do what we can to accomodate within reason.
The trouble is that other students just hand in late work and expect the same consideration.  We have discussed it in class, and I believe these students are taking unfair advantage of the classroom setup.  I have to go back and mark work that is not fresh in my mind.  I have to search on the computer to include grades and god forbid if I forget to include a late assignment.  It is always my fault for not being able to accommodate a laggard student.  To be fair 85 % of my students are wonderful and parents are in agreement with a strong work ethic.  However, the position of a teacher is now to accommodate consumers, and the customer is always right and must be satisfied no matter how unreasonable their demands.  Our administrators are only human and they seem to be caught in the middle. If they support teachers they are not fulfilling the mandate of their administrators and their career suffers. I would not want to be a school administrator for all the money in the world.
As an update, and remember this only happened Thurs, the outpouring from the public has been overwhelming in its support for the teacher.  Many people had no idea this was occurring in our schools and in no way feel this prepares students for the working world.  
As I see it the self esteem movement has gone from elementary, to junior high to high school.  Our students can be exempted from failing from grade 1-9.  In high school the emphasis had been to prepare them for the working world or post secondary education.  Now we as teachers are being told that the working world always has accommodations and we need to incorporate real life experiences into the classroom by accommodating the differing needs of our students. Alternative assessments, differenting learning styles, the list goes on and on.  It is an extremely complicated issue and the best teachers have incorporated flexibility into their teaching.  However, when well respected teachers of long standing are singled out for severe punishment, something is wrong with the system and now the spotlight is on this case.  The process is now confidential and rightly so for the protection of this teacher's rights.  By word of mouth he is held in high regard by his students and fellow teachers.  What a way to end a great career.


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## Kal (Jun 3, 2012)

The problem is this student behavior moves into the workplace. I would never make it as an upline superior to that type of student entering into the work force. There would have to be two management levels between me and that person lest I would be hammered for all sorts of supervisor miss-deeds. An endless program of sensitivity refresher training for moi.

The age old management theory of these responses just doesn't cut it any longer:

* Deal with it
* Don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out
* Just do the work assigned, on time
* ....and the horse you rode in on!
* See ya, don't want to be ya.

and the old standby -
* It's my way or the highway.

to be replaced by -
* Nah, the customer (or stock holder) doesn't care!


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## Tacoma (Jun 3, 2012)

I brought this up in my classes on Friday.  I also teach high school English and try and enforce the policy of I will accept assignments up until I pass them back marked and go over them.  If a student is consistently late I will dock 10% a day up to 30%.  I don't often take the late marks off but I need the option for some students. However if I'm still accepting it I want them to feel it's still worthwhile to do it.
What I've noticed is more students playing the game.  They miss 30-50% of the classes and come to me to make up the assignments that are worth the marks.  It takes me a while to realize they are playing me and my school does not have a policy of failing students who miss over a certain percentage of classes.  If I didn't show up for work 2-3 days a week I would expect to be fired or at least forced to deal with whatever the underlying issue was.
We are talking high school students here not young children.  When do they become responsible for their choices?  Most teachers bend over backwards to help students who need it because of illness, participation in sports, once in a lifetime opportunites etc. but more and more students and parents feel it's their  right to pass with high marks.  We'll just forgive assignments they miss or give them alternatives never a zero.
Most students are supportive of giving zero's when they deserve it.  It is a select few who push the boundaries.
I will be waiting to hear the outcome of this case.  I believe the teacher involved feels strongly that this is the issue that he is willing to "die for".  A great 35 year career where he played by the rules and did his best he likely does not regularly rock the boat but sometimes you are foced to stand up for what you believe.

Joan


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## ampaholic (Jun 3, 2012)

I hope this teacher's students are speaking up for him and their parents as well. Teaching is all about *community* standards - not just "higher" standards.

That said - when I went to HS a zero was a big stick the teacher had to enforce getting the work done done done. I don't see how it will benefit these modern students in the long run to cripple the teacher's right to use of that stick.


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## Mel (Jun 3, 2012)

Tacoma said:


> It takes me a while to realize they are playing me and my school does not have a policy of failing students who miss over a certain percentage of classes.  If I didn't show up for work 2-3 days a week I would expect to be fired or at least forced to deal with whatever the underlying issue was.
> We are talking high school students here not young children.  When do they become responsible for their choices?  Most teachers bend over backwards to help students who need it because of illness, participation in sports, once in a lifetime opportunites etc. but more and more students and parents feel it's their  right to pass with high marks.  We'll just forgive assignments they miss or give them alternatives never a zero.





spirits said:


> ...Now we as teachers are being told that the working world always has accommodations and we need to incorporate real life experiences into the classroom by accommodating the differing needs of our students. Alternative assessments, differenting learning styles, the list goes on and on.  It is an extremely complicated issue and the best teachers have incorporated flexibility into their teaching.  However, when well respected teachers of long standing are singled out for severe punishment, something is wrong with the system and now the spotlight is on this case.  The process is now confidential and rightly so for the protection of this teacher's rights.  By word of mouth he is held in high regard by his students and fellow teachers.  What a way to end a great career.


Accomodations are one thing, when there is a reason to accomodate - whether it is a learning disability, or other committments (given that students are made to understand that sometimes differing priorities do not warrant accomodations).  While I understand the students that feel it is unfair to accomodate the world-class athlete, without accomodating the lazy student, there is a difference.  The former often has been excused from classes, and has chosen to remain in public schools, rather than homeschooling.  The latter simply chooses not to attend class.

Our school has an attendance policy where students lose credit if they miss a certain number of classes - whether excused or not.  While this deals with the students who habitually miss classes, it becomes unfair to the student who has legitimate reasons for missing class (they do at least consider consecutive absences for a single medical issue as one absence).  Our schools do apparently have a policy of requiring a minimum grade of 40 on any assignment the student attempts, but zero is acceptable if they don't turn it in.  I suppose that is a balance - minimum credit for at least attempting the assignment, and I have not heard of abuse (name on paper, and one obviously incorrect answer).

But overall I agree, we are coddling this generation.  If someone really thinks that not allowing a zero on an assignment is "real world" they need to move back to the private sector and experience the real world again.  This is not fair to the students who do attempt the work.


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## pgnewarkboy (Jun 3, 2012)

Below is a link to articles by teachers who support  the no zero grade policy.  They do not see the policy link to self esteem.  Instead they think giving a zero grade lets the child off too easy.
http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2012/06/01/educators-speak-out-the-case-for-no-zeros-policy/


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 3, 2012)

Kal said:


> Just another aspect of the "Millennial Generation". Everyone's a winner!



When everyone is declared a winner, then everyone becomes a loser.


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## rapmarks (Jun 3, 2012)

reminds me of a very sad story.
a family of ten children.  the first came to school regularly, had some learning problems, but made it through hs.  
i had #2 son, he showed up one day, then took 9 days off, usually napped on the day he showed up (truancy is ten days or more).
#3 son had same attendance policy.  He drowned this winter snowmobiling on a lake in weather that had barely gotten below freezing.  Must have stayed home when they taught the 33 degrees in science class.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 3, 2012)

The teacher was too lenient even with his policy.  There is no incentive for doing work on time.  Miss an assignment?  No problem.  Just do it later with no penalty.

If I were a student who did my work on time, I would be very ticked off with this policy.


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## jme (Jun 3, 2012)

political correctness is hogwash..... no, absurd hogwash. borne out of a warped ideology. 

the world is unfortunately upside down, and there is no recovering. "enlightened people" are gaining the upper hand, but the result is a dumbing down of all kids and society in general. 

that's why high school graduates cannot read or write a complete sentence. they don't even know what a paragraph is....and history has been rewritten. 

and kids are being churned out every second----millions born to unwed and/or single moms-----and you expect them to get an education and get jobs?  no, they sell drugs, live by crime, and become the scourge of society. 

the "not allowing zeroes" mentality was borne out of huge numbers of inept students who were sitting in the classroom but could not perform, so a way had to be devised to let them "feel good"-----that's why I dwell on the multitude of kids.

not allowing zeroes is just one infinitesimal part of the mess.

but bless their little hearts, we reward nonproductive people with government checks every month, and now almost 50% of people pay no taxes.  it's all interrelated. 

so, get back to basics and uphold discipline, expect hard work, and reward according to merit....true character will emerge. 

pipe dream.


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## Tia (Jun 3, 2012)

Agree with lots of what jme just said. I know a lady that taught 1st grade for 17 yrs then retired and was working another job. I asked her why not just sub teach? Her reply was teaching is not what it used to be even in 1st grade  . Something is very very wrong here. 

Where there are no consequences the results are not pretty. Local high schools are graduating kids that NEED remedial classes in college! And did they do poorly in hs? NO most all of them had decent grades in high school   The system pays more attention to the very top and the lowest performers then the middle!

http://www.nbc11news.com/home/headlines/State_schools_working_to_curb_remediation_156489205.html


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## spirits (Jun 3, 2012)

*The devil is in the details*

pgnewarkboy referred to a link in their post.  Please note one of the responders is the consultant who wrote the assessment proceedure, another is an assessment consultant who is involved with implementing this program.  I am not insinuating anything untoward, and they have the right to be heard.  I am just not sure if they have properly disclosed their involvement.  They are certainly not teachers in the classroom anymore.


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## pgnewarkboy (Jun 3, 2012)

spirits said:


> pgnewarkboy referred to a link in their post.  Please note one of the responders is the consultant who wrote the assessment proceedure, another is an assessment consultant who is involved with implementing this program.  I am not insinuating anything untoward, and they have the right to be heard.  I am just not sure if they have properly disclosed their involvement.  They are certainly not teachers in the classroom anymore.



   Like it or not there are arguments in favor of the policy.  Whether or not the writers of the linked articles are teachers does not in and of itself make their position right or wrong overall.  Their position stands or falls by the force of its own logic. They generally say that it  is harder and better  for the children if you make them do the work and that giving a zero grade lowers instead of raises standards.  They also say that the policy has nothing to do with self-esteem.

   I am not staking out a position.  I don't know the answer but perhaps some of the educators in this discussion could shed some light by critiquing  the position of those in favor of a no zero policy for grading.


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## jjlovecub (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh brother. It isn't about stroking kids or making things easy on them or not holding them to standards. The reason policies like this are even necessary because as a school administrator (and former teacher) I can not begin to tell you the number of teachers who give a zero because the student didn't put their name on the paper or because the assignment was a day late. Is responsibity and punctuality important - of course!! BUT not putting your name on your paper or turning in assignments late should be reflected in work habits or efffort grades. There are PLENTY of places to impact student scores in these areas. However, a grade, by definition, is a reflection of a student's mastery of the curriculum nothing more. It is NOT a reflection of their work habits skills. Now if a student refuses to do an assignment then there are social issues involved and those should be addressed accordingly. Policies like this are only around because of a misuse of the grading system. Now in the case of this teacher he may well be justified I don't know the details and thus can't comment as such. Just know that there is always more to the story then what you read. JMHO


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## pjrose (Jun 3, 2012)

Boo on this ridiculous no zero policy, and yay for the educator for sticking to his values.  He's more lenient than I; I wouldn't accept late work without a penalty, as it's not fair to those who did the work on time.  But that's not the issue here.  


The first day of class (college) I make two points about my grading policy; these are also stated in my syllabi.

1. I don't give grades.  I record the grade you earn.  The grade is up to you, not me. 

2. I hope everybody earns an A.  If everybody earns an A, it means we have all done our jobs well.


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## spirits (Jun 3, 2012)

*Some more information*

Our assessment policy does not allow any marking of student BEHAVIOR!!!! We are not allowed to dock marks because of lateness, because it does not assess true accomplishment.  Therefore we must use our professional judgement to estimate what the student would have earned IF they had done the assignment.  And THAT is not grading for behavior?  I understand the intent.  We should not be assessing the student based on whether they smile nicely at us or if they are a pain in the classroom.  And I admit there may be bias in our marking and we should not be subject to that.  I understand that our marking should be as objective and unbiasedly assessed as best as we can.  However, in this case I THINK  two personalities  stood their ground and now there is a minor tragedy occurring.  As well, I think this is a perfect storm situation in the field of education. The fact is, it is occurring in my neighborhood and prompting me to get as much information from both sides forward.  As of today there has been very little information given by the superintendent, principal or school trustees.  This is a disciplinary issue, or perhaps not,  and should be resolved with due process.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 3, 2012)

jjlovecub said:


> Oh brother. It isn't about stroking kids or making things easy on them or not holding them to standards. The reason policies like this are even necessary because as a school administrator (and former teacher) I can not begin to tell you the number of teachers who give a zero because the student didn't put their name on the paper or because the assignment was a day late. Is responsibity and punctuality important - of course!! BUT not putting your name on your paper or turning in assignments late should be reflected in work habits or efffort grades. There are PLENTY of places to impact student scores in these areas. However, a grade, by definition, is a reflection of a student's mastery of the curriculum nothing more. It is NOT a reflection of their work habits skills. Now if a student refuses to do an assignment then there are social issues involved and those should be addressed accordingly. Policies like this are only around because of a misuse of the grading system. Now in the case of this teacher he may well be justified I don't know the details and thus can't comment as such. Just know that there is always more to the story then what you read. JMHO



Let me see if I get this straight.  You seem to support the no zero policy.  You believe that it is not the responsibility of the teacher to ensure that the student does work on time.

If that is your position, I am very happy that my children did not attend your school.  I think the main reason behind most of the issues we have in this country is that people are not held accountable for their actions or lack thereof.  

My son just graduated from high school last night.  There were 2 valedictory speeches.  I was very intrigued when the content of both of their speeches was on the content of character and what their school taught them in terms of values rather than their accomplishments.  The awards were as much focused on recognizing unsung heroes rather than the immense accomplishments of this highly distinguished graduating class.  I found that highly refreshing.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 3, 2012)

spirits said:


> Our assessment policy does not allow any marking of student BEHAVIOR!!!! We are not allowed to dock marks because of lateness, because it does not assess true accomplishment.  Therefore we must use our professional judgement to estimate what the student would have earned IF they had done the assignment.  And THAT is not grading for behavior?  I understand the intent.  We should not be assessing the student based on whether they smile nicely at us or if they are a pain in the classroom.  And I admit there may be bias in our marking and we should not be subject to that.  I understand that our marking should be as objective and unbiasedly assessed as best as we can.  However, in this case I THINK  two personalities  stood their ground and now there is a minor tragedy occurring.  As well, I think this is a perfect storm situation in the field of education. The fact is, it is occurring in my neighborhood and prompting me to get as much information from both sides forward.  As of today there has been very little information given by the superintendent, principal or school trustees.  This is a disciplinary issue, or perhaps not,  and should be resolved with due process.



In the real world, behavior is a far more important predictor of success than are scores or grades.  My children get letter grades for their classes and they get a number according to a behavior standard.  The behavior score is not reported on any college application, but that score along with the required teacher commentary on my child's performance for that class for that marking period is very helpful in understanding how well my kid is doing in that class.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 3, 2012)

pgnewarkboy said:


> Like it or not there are arguments in favor of the policy.  Whether or not the writers of the linked articles are teachers does not in and of itself make their position right or wrong overall.  Their position stands or falls by the force of its own logic. They generally say that it  is harder and better  for the children if you make them do the work and that giving a zero grade lowers instead of raises standards.  They also say that the policy has nothing to do with self-esteem.
> 
> I am not staking out a position.  I don't know the answer but perhaps some of the educators in this discussion could shed some light by critiquing  the position of those in favor of a no zero policy for grading.



There are definitely arguments for and against this policy.  I am totally against it and would never send my children to a school with such policy.  I believe it is totally misguided and hurts kids more than helps them.  That is why I am so please I have the option to send my kids to private school where I can pick the type of school with policies that actually teach them something valuable.


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## Mel (Jun 3, 2012)

jjlovecub said:


> Oh brother. It isn't about stroking kids or making things easy on them or not holding them to standards. The reason policies like this are even necessary because as a school administrator (and former teacher) I can not begin to tell you the number of teachers who give a zero because the student didn't put their name on the paper or because the assignment was a day late. Is responsibity and punctuality important - of course!! BUT not putting your name on your paper or turning in assignments late should be reflected in work habits or efffort grades. There are PLENTY of places to impact student scores in these areas. However, a grade, by definition, is a reflection of a student's mastery of the curriculum nothing more. It is NOT a reflection of their work habits skills. Now if a student refuses to do an assignment then there are social issues involved and those should be addressed accordingly. Policies like this are only around because of a misuse of the grading system. Now in the case of this teacher he may well be justified I don't know the details and thus can't comment as such. Just know that there is always more to the story then what you read. JMHO


This was a high school teacher, not elementary level.  The job of HS teachers is to prepare students for the real world.  Thus the grade should not be 100% about curriculum content - it should also be about the context of learning to cope in the real world.  As long as the teacher spells out the grading policy up front, there should be no problem.

I read a recent article suggesting that the Facebook IPO would have gone much differently had the founder stayed at Harvard, or earned an MBA.  It is not about the specific content of the classes he would have taken, but the more general experience he would have had.  HS shouldn't be so much about learning the content, but in learning how to learn.  The teacher has no way to assess whether you have mastered the content unless you complete the assignments and take the tests.  Indeed, perhaps an 'I' for incomplete is appropriate, but you also have to consider the context of completing the content within a certain amount of time.

The teacher has a contract that state he will teach a certain amount of material over a particular amount of time.  If his students don't complete the work by the end of the semester, is he expected to continue teaching that student?  Seems to me to be a breach of his contract.


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## pjrose (Jun 3, 2012)

What I simply can't comprehend is how work that was never handed in can get anything other than a zero.  

If they hand in some slop, perhaps they have earned a D-.  But MISSING work?  It just doesn't make sense.

And regarding kids with high school diplomas who need remedial work in college, I see the results each semester.  The A and B students are still excellent or very good, but the average and below students have been going way down in their ability to do much of anything other than memorize definitions.  Apply? Analyze? No.  Correct grammar?  No.   

I can't - don't want to - imagine the caliber of the lower-end students coming from a no-zero policy.  I kind of doubt they'll go to college.  They'll have a very rude awakening when/if they go to work.


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## jlr10 (Jun 3, 2012)

I agree with what has been stated.  The big problem is when they come into a job they still expect the same treatment.  I have several friends who are managers and all agree many of the generation entering the work force do not have a strong work ethic and do the job at their own pace and have this strong sense of entitlement.  They want a raise just for showing up.   I am glad I work for an employer that believes if you don't do the work, then you won't work there, which is quite a strong zero policy.


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## spirits (Jun 3, 2012)

*Opinion from the editor*

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/As a lesson, no-zero policy misses mark/6719536/story.html

Edmonton's local paper had this editorial.  They have access to information I did not have.  Note what the 3 consultants who formulated the policy think of teachers who do not buy into their system.  To me they do not seem to want to consider the viewpoint of teachers seeking some sort of accommodation to their program to counter students who abuse the system.
Again, I understand the reasoning behind this assessment policy but I think it relies too much on holding teachers accountable for their assessments and lets students manipulate their system without any meaningful  consequences for their actions


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jun 4, 2012)

jjlovecub said:


> Oh brother. It isn't about stroking kids or making things easy on them or not holding them to standards. The reason policies like this are even necessary because as a school administrator (and former teacher) I can not begin to tell you the number of teachers who give a zero because the student didn't put their name on the paper or because the assignment was a day late. Is responsibity and punctuality important - of course!! *BUT not putting your name on your paper or turning in assignments late should be reflected in work habits or efffort grades.* [snip]


And this is the reason there is a disconnect between what happens in the schools and what happens in the workplace. In the work place we don't give work habits or effort grades.  *In the real world, getting the job done on time is a pass/fail issue. Not doing the job on time is the same thing as not doing it right.* 

As a school administrator I suggest you try to wrap your head around the notion that "late" is equivalent to "incorrect".

Having been in a position previously in which I was responsible for doing performance evaluations for 20 to 25 staff with professional degrees (and varying levels of experience), I remain stunned by the number of younger staff who were perplexed - and sometimes offended - that their work was graded unacceptable when they missed a deadline.


*****

And I have to confess that I am almost equally stunned by the number of educators who don't seem to grasp the importance of that basic requirement.  I guess I should add educational consultants to that mix - being in the consulting business myself I fully appreciate that observation that "those who can, do.  Those who can't, consult."


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## ampaholic (Jun 4, 2012)

spirits said:


> http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/As a lesson, no-zero policy misses mark/6719536/story.html
> 
> Edmonton's local paper had this editorial.  They have access to information I did not have.  Note what the 3 consultants who formulated the policy think of teachers who do not buy into their system.  To me they do not seem to want to consider the viewpoint of teachers seeking some sort of accommodation to their program to counter students who abuse the system.
> Again, I understand the reasoning behind this assessment policy but I think it relies too much on holding teachers accountable for their assessments and lets students manipulate their system without any meaningful  consequences for their actions



It's really *hypocritical* for the school administration to suspend this teacher - it is tantamount to *them* giving him a zero (paycheck wise anyway).

They should just write a CNA (*C*hose *N*ot to *A*ttempt) - on his paycheck stub - regarding his implementation of administration policy.

Seems fair


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## pgnewarkboy (Jun 4, 2012)

I don't know if zeros are good or bad or work or don't work.  I don't support zeros and I am  not against them.  Inasmuch as the argument against zeros is not being addressed in this thread, I will make the argument as best as I understand it.

Those against zeros say that a grade is supposed to reflect the student's mastery of a particular subject area.  If a student doesn't turn in a paper you don't know about that student's mastery of the subject - you know that they didn't turn in the paper, have bad work habits, are insolent, or just don't care.   These various attitudes towards the work can and should be reflected in some other kind of evaluation or comments on the record.  A brilliant paper that is one day late may show utter mastery of the subject matter but indicate other problems such as laziness, forgetfulness, etc.

Those against zeros are also saying that giving a student a zero lets the kid off the hook.  The student no longer has to do the assignment.  It is as if the student did the work but it was of zero value.  They are saying that an incomplete is more damaging.  Someone looking at the record will say that the student never finished algebra.  Someone looking at a zero on the record will not know what to think.   As one teacher on this board posted , in his experience some teachers handed out zeros for not putting your name on the paper.


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## Zac495 (Jun 4, 2012)

I think it depends. Clearly I'm in the minority here, but getting a zero on one assignment can destroy a grade. Were there extenuating circumstances? Did the student have an opportunity to make up the work? It sounds as though the teacher did, in fact, give the child the chance to make up the work – thus I am in favor of zero in that case – probably – but we don’t know if the child was sick, had some kind of major issues – many workplaces give people breaks for family circumstances. I think we have to be careful about giving out zeros – and the rule probably came from unfair teaching practices in the past.
  Recently my daughter got 0/85 on a project she failed to turn in. She was out for 3 days and couldn’t finish in computer lab so she emailed it to herself. She got home and realized we didn’t have Publisher (the program being used) on our home computers. I guess she gave up as she didn’t ask me for help – making it much her fault. When I saw the zero, I forced her to do it and hand it in. The teacher wouldn’t even look at it – and left the zero. She has an IEP and received no assistance. In this case the teacher was wrong (I let it go – didn’t want to battle the teacher and it’s 8th grade so it doesn’t count towards college). Had it been 9th, I would have fought for her.


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## Twinkstarr (Jun 4, 2012)

Zac495 said:


> I think it depends. Clearly I'm in the minority here, but getting a zero on one assignment can destroy a grade. Were there extenuating circumstances? Did the student have an opportunity to make up the work? It sounds as though the teacher did, in fact, give the child the chance to make up the work – thus I am in favor of zero in that case – probably – but we don’t know if the child was sick, had some kind of major issues – many workplaces give people breaks for family circumstances. I think we have to be careful about giving out zeros – and the rule probably came from unfair teaching practices in the past.
> Recently my daughter got 0/85 on a project she failed to turn in. She was out for 3 days and couldn’t finish in computer lab so she emailed it to herself. She got home and realized we didn’t have Publisher (the program being used) on our home computers. I guess she gave up as she didn’t ask me for help – making it much her fault. When I saw the zero, I forced her to do it and hand it in. The teacher wouldn’t even look at it – and left the zero. She has an IEP and received no assistance. In this case the teacher was wrong (I let it go – didn’t want to battle the teacher and it’s 8th grade so it doesn’t count towards college). Had it been 9th, I would have fought for her.



Ellen, that story sounds familiar to me. Eldest also on an IEP had a problem with 8th grade computer class last year. I ended up getting his intervention specialist involved, but found out that most of the class had the same problems with the project that caused the problem. Not enough time to finish in class and she would not allow work to be done at home for any assignment even if you had the software at home. Nor did she offer computer time before or after school.

 It was just the one assignment that dropped his grade.

Surprisingly he has a computer class this yr in 9th grade and is getting an A. I asked what is the difference, teacher gives assignments that can be completed in class and they also have the lab(all subjects have them in our HS, where kids can go during lunch or study hall and certain days after school to get help or more computer time), this is for all students not just ones on IEP's.


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## pianodinosaur (Jun 4, 2012)

When you are late paying the utilities bill you are sent a warning.  If the bill is not received on time the water and/or electricity are turned off.  It doesn't matter if the check is lost in the mail.  If you forgot to sign the check, it will not be honored. 

If you don't sign your name on the dotted line for your income tax statement, your tax return is incomplete.  You will not get your refund.  You may even get a penalty.  Failure to submit your income tax on time will result in a penalty. Failure to submit your income tax is a felony.  Federal tax court is the only court in the land where you are guilty until proven innocent. 

Welcome to the cold, cruel world.


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## Mel (Jun 4, 2012)

pjrose said:


> What I simply can't comprehend is how work that was never handed in can get anything other than a zero.
> 
> If they hand in some slop, perhaps they have earned a D-.  But MISSING work?  It just doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...


I think what they want is for the grade to be based on the work that IS handed in.  In other words, I can complete the first assignment, and earn an A on that assignment.  If I do no other work for the remainder of the semester, my grade is based only on that one assignment.  Easy A!

I agree with you - I can't imagine the below average students who would be allowed to pass using this grading system.  Thankfully I don't think they will go on to college.  I know a few of them (who didn't get their diploma), and it's almost always somebody else's fault.

I understand wanting to give these kids a chance, but someone needs to think about the message it sends to the kids who work hard for their grades.  Student A stayed up each night completing the assignments, and turned them in on time.  He earned a B for his work.  Student D waited until after the assignments were handed back to everyone else, and then completed them for a grade of A.  High School should be as much about learning social skills and work ethic as it is about the content of the curriculum.  They might never end up using what they learned about geometry, but they will use those social skills, and will benefit from the work ethic.


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## Rose Pink (Jun 4, 2012)

I think the no zero policy is irresponsible, nevertheless, it was the policy.  The teacher refused to follow policy.  He was reprimanded.  He continued to ignore policy.  He was reprimanded.  The third time, he was suspended.  At least that is how I understand the OP's link.

If I hired someone to work for me and he repeatedly ignored my directives, I would fire him.  I would expect to be fired from my job if I repeatedly failed to follow company policy.  So, while I agree the policy is stupid, the teacher was not being too bright himself in the way he handled it.  Not sure he is the hero people are making him out to be.

Education should teach us how to think, how to problem solve.  Can't give a kid a zero because its against policy?  Give the kid a one or a ten or some other non-zero but still failing grade.


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## spencersmama (Jun 5, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> I think the no zero policy is irresponsible, nevertheless, it was the policy.  The teacher refused to follow policy.  He was reprimanded.  He continued to ignore policy.  He was reprimanded.  The third time, he was suspended.  At least that is how I understand the OP's link.



It is ironic that the school system is being more lenient with what students do and how students work while at the same time holding teachers accountable for teaching and grading in a very specific manner.


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## Rose Pink (Jun 5, 2012)

spencersmama said:


> It is ironic that the school system is being more lenient with what students do and how students work while at the same time holding teachers accountable for teaching and grading in a very specific manner.


Yes, it is odd.  However, the adult is being held to a higher standard, as adults should be.  I don't agree with the zero policy.  It is wreckless and stupid, IMO.  However, we also have an issue of an adult who is being defiant.  Not that is always a bad thing.  I'm certainly grateful for those who stand up for justice and freedom.  However, I think he could have done it in a more responsible way--at least with the minimal info I have.

We want our children to learn responsible behavior.  This no zero policy does not promote responsible behavior.  But neither does a teacher/role model who ignores the policies of his employer.  Think about it.  If you acted like that in  your job, would you be around for long?  I did leave a job that was asking me to do something I believed unprofessional and immoral.


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## mtforeman (Jun 5, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> I think the no zero policy is irresponsible, nevertheless, it was the policy.  The teacher refused to follow policy.  He was reprimanded.  He continued to ignore policy.  He was reprimanded.  The third time, he was suspended.  At least that is how I understand the OP's link.
> 
> If I hired someone to work for me and he repeatedly ignored my directives, I would fire him.  I would expect to be fired from my job if I repeatedly failed to follow company policy.  So, while I agree the policy is stupid, the teacher was not being too bright himself in the way he handled it.  Not sure he is the hero people are making him out to be.



I'm _so_ glad you mentioned this!  Regardless of the "right" or the "wrong" of the policy, it is important to recognize that this man is an _employee_.  This is not a college professor who is under a contract in which he can do almost anything he wants in whatever way he wants.  The policy of this school was established by the folks in charge, for whatever reason.  If this gentleman refused to do what he was told, he should have gotten another job.  THAT is a real world lesson.  You take a paycheck from somebody else, to do a specific job in a specific way.  If you don't do it, you're out.

There were _many_ options this gentleman may have had to work to support a change of policy, other than refusing to do was he was told.

Some comparisons here seem to confuse what he's doing with "civil disobedience" in which you refuse to follow a law with which you disagree and willingly risk being charged for a criminal act.  There may be no way to avoid following a LAW without civil disobedience as a way of protesting.  However, this is a JOB and all he had to do was get a different one elsewhere, or do what he was told to do until he could.

If I don't do what I'm supposed to do at my job, whether I like it or not, I'm out of there.  I can work with my bosses to improve things, I can leave willingly, or I can be fired.  Those are my choices.

For the record, though, I disagree with the "no zero policy."  At my school, we got zero's AND we had to make up the assignments, for no credit, or we could get an incomplete grade which meant we not only didn't pass, but we couldn't do summer school either.


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## Blues (Jun 5, 2012)

mtforeman said:


> I'm _so_ glad you mentioned this!  Regardless of the "right" or the "wrong" of the policy, it is important to recognize that this man is an _employee_.  This is not a college professor who is under a contract in which he can do almost anything he wants in whatever way he wants.  The policy of this school was established by the folks in charge, for whatever reason.  If this gentleman refused to do what he was told, he should have gotten another job.  THAT is a real world lesson.  You take a paycheck from somebody else, to do a specific job in a specific way.  If you don't do it, you're out.



SIGH!  I guess you're right.  And I find it very unfortunate.  Our educational system sucks the life out of the most dedicated, idealistic teachers.  Let me share a story.

When I was 25 or so, I was employed as an engineer at one of the most prestigious engineering organizations in the US, Bell Labs (RIP).  But I was restless and unsatisfied.  Now, it was a bad time in my life (going through a divorce), so that may have contributed.  But I decided I wanted to teach high school math.

So I quit my job at Bell Labs, and went back to college to get a teaching credential.  Since I already had a Bachelors's degree, I had to enter at the graduate level.  I lasted two semesters.  In that time, I learned about our "educational" system.  I learned about state and federal mandates, about strictly hewing to the mandated course plans, and lots of other things I've since forgotten.  I learned nothing about motivating kids to learn.  At the end of that time, as the time approached when I should have scheduled student teaching, I quit.  The advisor that I had convinced to let me into the program was very confused.  "But you were so passionate about it!", she said.  "Yes, but I've since learned about how our educational system really works", I replied.  Thoroughly discouraged, I went back to a long and profitable engineering career.

So yes, it's a job, and the employee has to defer to the will of the employer.  D*mn, crying shame, I say.

-Bob


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## Rose Pink (Jun 5, 2012)

Blues said:


> SIGH!  I guess you're right.  And I find it very unfortunate.  Our educational system sucks the life out of the most dedicated, idealistic teachers.
> 
> .....
> So yes, it's a job, and the employee has to defer to the will of the employer.  D*mn, crying shame, I say.
> ...


I think the most effective teachers are those who find a way to reach the student.  _Those teachers are creative and thoughtful_, not stubborn about doing things the way they've always done them.  

As I said, this teacher could have been creative about circumventing that stupid no-zero rule.  He could have given them 1s or 5s or any other failing grade other than zero.

While I strongly believe the no-zero rule is blatantly stupid, flawed and irresponsible I also realize our traditional grading system leaves something to be desired.  People who memorize well do well on tests.  Cram and get an A even though you can't recall or use the information at a later date.  Some people don't test well even though they know the material.  

As for self-esteem, that comes from demonstrating to yourself that you can accomplish something.  It doesn't come from pats on the back, welcome as they may be.  It comes from knowing you can make a difference.


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## Ridewithme38 (Jun 5, 2012)

Blues said:


> So yes, it's a job, and the employee has to defer to the will of the employer.  D*mn, crying shame, I say.
> 
> -Bob



Sounds like every job i've ever worked....


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## pgnewarkboy (Jun 5, 2012)

"At my school, we got zero's AND we had to make up the assignments, for no credit, or we could get an incomplete grade which meant we not only didn't pass, but we couldn't do summer school either".


Seems like overkill


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## Rose Pink (Jun 5, 2012)

*And another thing....*

We should be instilling in our children that the teachers are working for them, not the student working for the teacher to get a grade.

Teachers are hired to help people learn.  When my DD called me to talk about something she didn't understand from a college professor, I told her to go back to the professor and make him/her explain it until my DD did understand.  I told her "you are paying this person to teach you.  Get what you've paid for!"

Our children have the wrong idea about education.  Wonder where they learned that from?  duh


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## Larry6417 (Jun 5, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> However, we also have an issue of an adult who is being defiant.  Not that is always a bad thing.  I'm certainly grateful for those who stand up for justice and freedom.  However, I think he could have done it in a more responsible way--at least with the minimal info I have.
> 
> We want our children to learn responsible behavior.  This no zero policy does not promote responsible behavior.  But neither does a teacher/role model who ignores the policies of his employer.  Think about it.  If you acted like that in  your job, would you be around for long?  I did leave a job that was asking me to do something I believed unprofessional and immoral.



You bring up an interesting point. Most people here clearly disagree with the "no zero" policy, but should the teacher toe the line (or simply quit)? I disagree with your position. First, is the teacher in question an "employee" of the principal? Does the principal "own" the school as a productive business (i.e. directly take in school fees/ taxes, "market" the school, risk  personal financial ruin the way an entrepreneur would)? The answer is no to all of the above. Owners of private businesses have the right to run their businesses as they see fit - within the bounds of the law. However, a school (at least in this case) is "owned" and funded directly by taxpayers. The principal (and school board for that matter) are the "caretakers" of the institution, and their decisions (in my mind) are subject to the approval of the *real* owners, the taxpayers and parents. From the news stories I've read, parents and taxpayers support the teacher, not the principal.

Second, you state that the teacher should support what he considers an immoral policy to retain his job. I'll give an analogy. Members of the armed forces are subject to a command structure far stricter than civilian employees. However, soldiers are still expected to follow the dictates of their own conscience. That was made abundantly clear at the Nuremberg trials. The policy (in the teacher's mind) harmed his students. I agree.

There's an interview with the teacher here http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20120601/teacher-suspended-marking-zeroes-120601/

His marking was not draconian. He gave students the chance to"erase" those zeroes by completing their assignments. Also, (in a different story) I read that the teacher had met with administrators multiple times. It's not as if this is a new stance on his part. I suspect the real reason he was suspended is that he defied the power of a petty bureaucrat, the principal. What's right for the students was irrelevant to his suspension.


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## Blues (Jun 5, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> I think the most effective teachers are those who find a way to reach the student.  _Those teachers are creative and thoughtful_, not stubborn about doing things the way they've always done them.



I agree with you.  And they're able to do this despite the system, not because of it.  They manage to work the seams and cracks of the system, to slyly circumvent the rules, all for the purpose of motivating and benefiting their students.

An enlightened school administration *could* do the same for the benefit of both their teachers and their students, if they tried.  I wonder if such exists.

Anyway, I take your point, Rose Pink.  The teacher in question was inflexible, and rather bull-headed about how he chose to defy the system.  I also wondered about giving 1's or some such.  Apparently the teacher was too green to be sophisticated in the way he worked the system.  I hope he has a chance to refine his technique somewhere.




Ridewithme38 said:


> Sounds like every job i've ever worked....



Sorry to hear that, Ride.

-Bob


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## Rose Pink (Jun 5, 2012)

Larry6417 said:


> Second, you state that the teacher should support what he considers an immoral policy to retain his job.


No way did I state that.   Didn't imply it, either.  I said he could have gotten around the insane policy.  

Besides giving 1s instead of 0s, he could have approached it from an entirely different angle.  He could use a feel good approach (that apparently the pro-no-zero people would approve) where every student began the term with an A or a 100%.  Points could then be deducted for poor work or work that is not turned in.  For example, the student automatically gets 100 points for an assignment.  99 points are deducted for not turning it in.  No zeros, but definite failure.  While some students may  not respond well to earning grades/points they may be motivated by losing something they think is theirs.  For some children climbing the mountain may seem impossible but if they are already on top and only have to stay on top by doing the work, it puts a different spin on it.

As for schools being different than business, consider that publically-owned businesses don't have a stockholder vote for every hiring and firing.  School principals and administrators do have the responsibility of hiring and firing.  School boards, which are elected bodies here in the States, do have the authority to make and change policy as long as it meets state and federal requirements. We do not hold a costly public vote for every policy.  If parents are concerned they can approach the board they elected to act in their behalf.  I hope that in the case we are discussing, no-zero, that enough public outcry will prompt a change in that stupid policy.

More and more schools are being expected to be run according to the business model. I'm not saying I agree with that but it is what is happening.  Teachers and schools have to show competency usually based on test scores.  Not the best indicator, either.  Same goes for healthcare.  Outcome based management is the standard.  Not saying it is always the best, but business is running healthcare and with more and more schools asking businesses to donate money and supplies to public schools, it should not come as a shock that they are requiring something back.  Hopefully, they will require that this stupid policy be dropped as it is not in the best interests of those businesses who will be hiring these students.

I stick by my original point.  The policy is ridiculous.  The teacher showed he was not adept at getting around it--given the limited amount of info we really have.  We don't know if he was a problem in other areas and this is just the one the administration could prove.  The zero policy could just be a smokescreen covering up other inadequacies.  I don't know.


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## Tia (Jun 5, 2012)

Blues said:


> .....
> So yes, it's a job, and the employee has to defer to the will of the employer.  D*mn, crying shame, I say.
> 
> -Bob



Interesting and does not surprise sadly.

 What I find really wrong is I know families with students who were in AP classes and when it came to writing papers, siblings papers where saved and used a few years later by younger siblings! This was brought to the attention of the teachers , one family the mother was a teacher, and NOTHING was done... just excuses offered.


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## mtforeman (Jun 5, 2012)

Larry6417 said:


> Second, you state that the teacher should support what he considers an immoral policy to retain his job. I'll give an analogy. Members of the armed forces are subject to a command structure far stricter than civilian employees. However, soldiers are still expected to follow the dictates of their own conscience. That was made abundantly clear at the Nuremberg trials. The policy (in the teacher's mind) harmed his students. I agree.



Well... I get that you feel the man did a courageous thing.  Perhaps in his mind it was worth it to make a statement, even at personal loss to himself.  Perhaps his courage will make a change in his community that otherwise wouldn't have been made.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out.  I still disagree with how he handled it, because if every teacher refused to follow the requirements of whatever is "this year's new thing" (TYNT), there would be mass chaos.  However, this kind of "shaking things up" can be a good thing, if he's willing to make the personal sacrifice.  

However, I have to disagree with the military analogy, coming from a military family.  Soldiers are _not_, according to the UCMJ, allowed to "follow the dictates of their own conscience."  The only thing a soldier may disobey is an "unlawful/illegal order" (which would include crimes against humanity or war crimes).  However, to refuse any lawful order, no matter how personally abhorrent it may seem to the soldier, is considered a crime under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).  It can be considered a crime punishable by death in times of war.

I'm not trying to be combative...guess I'm just an old fart in a young fart's body.


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## Larry6417 (Jun 5, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> No way did I state that.   Didn't imply it, either.



My apologies for misrepresenting your position. Your position is that a concerned teacher should quit rather than fight an "insane" (your word, not mine) policy?



Rose Pink said:


> I said he could have gotten around the insane policy.



Please state how he could have done so. The policy specifically stated that he had to give a letter code for incomplete work rather than a numeric grade.  





Rose Pink said:


> As for schools being different than business, consider that publically-owned businesses don't have a stockholder vote for every hiring and firing.  School principals and administrators do have the responsibility of hiring and firing.



Now you're misrepresenting my position. I didn't say that each hiring and firing needs a vote.  What I'm saying is that the principal and school board have enacted a politically correct, "feel good" policy that doesn't prepare kids for the real world. The public, which pays the salaries of all involved through taxes, clearly disagrees with the policy. In a representational democracy (which the involved school board is) elected officials can make policy contrary to public opinion, but only at their own peril. At this point, I suspect the reaction of the principal and school board is that of an affronted bureaucracy, rather than that of educators concerned only about quality education.




Rose Pink said:


> We don't know if he was a problem in other areas and this is just the one the administration could prove.  The zero policy could just be a smokescreen covering up other inadequacies.  I don't know.



If you don't know, why do you raise the possibility? Doing so in the absence of all evidence smacks of a smear to support your point. The involved teacher has been on the job for 35 years.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jun 5, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> We should be instilling in our children that the teachers are working for them, not the student working for the teacher to get a grade.



No - the teachers should be working for the parents, giving the child the education the parents want their children to have.  Those parents who want their child to be graded without zeroes can put their child in classroom settings that don't offer zeroes.  Those who want zeroes can work with schools and teachers that do use zeroes.

Imagine what the world of education would be like if parents could choose the education they wanted their child to have - to negotiate that directly with a school/principal/teacher, and if they didn't get what they wanted for their child they could simply send their child to another school that did give them what they wanted?


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## Larry6417 (Jun 5, 2012)

mtforeman said:


> Well... I get that you feel the man did a courageous thing.  Perhaps in his mind it was worth it to make a statement, even at personal loss to himself.  Perhaps his courage will make a change in his community that otherwise wouldn't have been made.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out.  I still disagree with how he handled it, because if every teacher refused to follow the requirements of whatever is "this year's new thing" (TYNT), there would be mass chaos.  However, this kind of "shaking things up" can be a good thing, if he's willing to make the personal sacrifice.
> 
> However, I have to disagree with the military analogy, coming from a military family.  Soldiers are _not_, according to the UCMJ, allowed to "follow the dictates of their own conscience."  The only thing a soldier may disobey is an "unlawful/illegal order" (which would include crimes against humanity or war crimes).  However, to refuse any lawful order, no matter how personally abhorrent it may seem to the soldier, is considered a crime under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).  It can be considered a crime punishable by death in times of war.
> 
> I'm not trying to be combative...guess I'm just an old fart in a young fart's body.



My apologies for my lack of clarity. What I should have said is that soldiers are obligated to follow their conscience rather than unlawful orders. My main point still stands. Critics are faulting the teacher for not "following orders" even though those orders were ridiculous.


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## geekette (Jun 5, 2012)

my sister quit teaching almost 2 decades ago when she was pressured (forced!) to pass kids that should not be passed along to the next grade.


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## ScoopKona (Jun 5, 2012)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Imagine what the world of education would be like if parents could choose the education they wanted their child to have - to negotiate that directly with a school/principal/teacher, and if they didn't get what they wanted for their child they could simply send their child to another school that did give them what they wanted?




Unfortunately, what many parents want is for their children to learn creationism in science class and to stay away from Kurt Vonnegut.


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## ampaholic (Jun 5, 2012)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> No - the teachers should be working for the parents, giving the child the education the parents want their children to have.  Those parents who want their child to be graded without zeroes can put their child in classroom settings that don't offer zeroes.  Those who want zeroes can work with schools and teachers that do use zeroes.


An idyllic notion ... however in actuality teachers (like the rest of us) work for whoever signs their paycheck, in this case the City of Edmonton I believe.



T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Imagine what the world of education would be like if parents could choose the education they wanted their child to have - to negotiate that directly with a school/principal/teacher, and if they didn't get what they wanted for their child they could simply send their child to another school that did give them what they wanted?



What a bizarre idea ... well, at least then we would still have segregation and institutionalized racism.

And of course never mind that such a system would wipe out our college entrance system - since no college could trust the prep work done on a student at the local level.

Even Catholic School only goes so far in it's teachings about the "real" Newton.


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## pedro47 (Jun 5, 2012)

Did the pupil signed his name on the assignment?  That was worth a one "1."

Just kidding !!!


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## heathpack (Jun 5, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> We should be instilling in our children that the teachers are working for them, not the student working for the teacher to get a grade.



I could not more strongly disagree with this.

I have been teaching one way or another every day of my life for the past 20 years- both formally in a classroom as a professor at the university level and in a clinical setting.

My job is to provide an opportunity and an envirnoment in which the student can learn.  Students increasingly come to me just wanting to be told what they need to learn to get by.  Sorry, you need to learn everything, much more than I can possibly teach you in the time I have with you.  All I can give you is the fundamentals, the way to approach things, an understanding as to how to learn for the rest of your life.

So all day long I explain things, I talk people through the logic of what we are seeing and doing.  I never just answer a question, even though it would be way faster for me to do so- instead I take people time and time again through the process of thinking through the issue at hand.  Ok, so you are asking me this, lets break the question down, lets demostrate how we draw a conclusion or decide what to do next or consider all the possible interpretations of what we are seeing.  I explain and narrate everything I do all day long.  I take a lot of time to teach.

But it is in no way my job to confer knowledge to someone else.  It is absolutely the responsibility of the student to learn the material, I am just one resource.  Part of that responsibility is getting your stuff done on time, no excuses.  The reality is that everyday life can be tough and things simply must get done on time.

I do not mind helping out a student who is making a genuine effort, if they just need me to explain something a little differently.  But in no way do I work for the student and he/she would achieve very little success with me if they basically came to me and told me it was my job to explain it to them until they understood.  There is a little bit of instilling a respect for authority in all of this- I am your teacher, I provide you an opportunity to learn, you give me deference and respect.  Some day you will be an employee, your boss will give you an opportunity to earn, you must show him/her deference and respect.

My hat is off to the zero-giving teacher.  I would absolutely do the same.

H


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## geekette (Jun 5, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> We should be instilling in our children that the teachers are working for them, not the student working for the teacher to get a grade.
> 
> Teachers are hired to help people learn.  When my DD called me to talk about something she didn't understand from a college professor, I told her to go back to the professor and make him/her explain it until my DD did understand.  I told her "you are paying this person to teach you.  Get what you've paid for!"
> 
> Our children have the wrong idea about education.  Wonder where they learned that from?  duh



Adults go to college, children go to school.  That is the job of Children, enforced by law.  no one works for children.  The teacher is the authority, not the child.

College students are generally to avail themselves of Office Hours for just these things, but it's a stretch to tell your daughter that she pays the prof's salary.  She is paying for an education, but that prof doesn't give it to her, that's not his job, it is her job to Get An Education, to use all the resources that she is paying to have available to her.  The prof is a tiny component of that and I'm not willing to entertain the notion that a prof "works for" dozens of college students.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jun 5, 2012)

ScoopLV said:


> Unfortunately, what many parents want is for their children to learn creationism in science class and to stay away from Kurt Vonnegut.





ampaholic said:


> An idyllic notion ... however in actuality teachers (like the rest of us) work for whoever signs their paycheck, in this case the City of Edmonton I believe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahhh .... I understand now. Raising children is too important of a task to be entrusted to parents.


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## eal (Jun 5, 2012)

*two quotes from today's Edmonton Journal editorial*

"Most polls on public policy questions on the blog get a few hundred responses. But as of Tuesday afternoon, we had an astonishing 12,486 responses. In total, 12,063 (97 per cent) replied that students should get a zero. Just 423 (three per cent) said they should not."

and

"I’ll leave the last word to NAIT instructor Tom Lincoln: 'The majority of students we’re getting at NAIT, who primarily come from Edmonton Public Schools, are completely unprepared for the rigours of post-secondary education. Our warning to them at the beginning of first semester, that a late assignment is automatically assigned a zero, often goes unheeded. Some of our students — I’m sorry I can’t quantify this – simply cannot believe that there are consequences for not handing in an assignment. This is the policy of my program; we are preparing students for a very unforgiving industry that is deadline driven and does not tolerate non-performance.'"

Thanks for posting this most interesting story!


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## Rose Pink (Jun 5, 2012)

Larry6417 said:


> My apologies for misrepresenting your position. Your position is that a concerned teacher should quit rather than fight an "insane" (your word, not mine) policy?


Again, I did not say it is my position that a teacher should quit rather than fight and, in fact, it is _not_ my position no matter how much you want to put words in my mouth.  I did state there may be other ways to fight rather than defiance.  If, however, there are no other ways, then defiance is an option.  In fact, in my first post on this thread I stated, "However, we also have an issue of an adult who is being defiant.  *Not that is always a bad thing.  I'm certainly grateful for those who stand up for justice and freedom*.  However, I think he could have done it in a more responsible way--at least with the minimal info I have." [emphasis added]

I am not attacking this teacher just because I point out that he is defying orders.  Merely pointing out that such behavior is generally not tolerated in other workplaces.


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## Rose Pink (Jun 5, 2012)

Larry6417 said:


> ...
> Now you're misrepresenting my position. I didn't say that each hiring and firing needs a vote.  What I'm saying is that the principal and school board have enacted a politically correct, "feel good" policy that doesn't prepare kids for the real world. The public, which pays the salaries of all involved through taxes, clearly disagrees with the policy. In a representational democracy (which the involved school board is) elected officials can make policy contrary to public opinion, but only at their own peril. At this point, I suspect the reaction of the principal and school board is that of an affronted bureaucracy, rather than that of educators concerned only about quality education.


 
I didn't say you said that "each hiring and firing needs a vote."  This is what I _did _say and that wasn't it.



Rose Pink said:


> As for schools being different than business, consider that publically-owned businesses don't have a stockholder vote for every hiring and firing.  School principals and administrators do have the responsibility of hiring and firing.  School boards, which are elected bodies here in the States, do have the authority to make and change policy as long as it meets state and federal requirements. We do not hold a costly public vote for every policy.  If parents are concerned they can approach the board they elected to act in their behalf.  I hope that in the case we are discussing, no-zero, that enough public outcry will prompt a change in that stupid policy.


 
I disagree with you that this is a "politically correct, 'feel good' policy." I don't see anything politically correct about it. 

I do agree with you that it "doesn't prepare kids for the real world."

And you are most likely correct that at this point "the principal and school board is that of an affronted bureaucracy, rather than that of educators concerned only about quality education."  That's just human nature, unfortunately.  We have a set of educators who believe one way and a set who believe another way.  Both want to hold onto their positions.  It looks like the public may be winning though, as long as they don't give up and move onto something else.  The parents and the rest of the community need to keep fighting this and not give up and not go away.  I suspect the next publically held school board meeting may be packed--as it should be every time.


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## Ridewithme38 (Jun 5, 2012)

I don't have much to say on this topic...I don't agree or disagree with either side strong enough to comment...But, i've got to post this for those that say the teacher was wrong to disobey a policy he believed was wrong



> If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.
> - Thomas Jefferson



This is my main issue with our criminal justice system as a whole....It doesn't get people an ability to  stand trial on the unjust laws, but on the people that have been accused of disobeying those unjust laws


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## Rose Pink (Jun 5, 2012)

heathpack said:


> I could not more strongly disagree with this.
> 
> I have been teaching one way or another every day of my life for the past 20 years- both formally in a classroom as a professor at the university level and in a clinical setting.
> 
> ...


 


geekette said:


> Adults go to college, children go to school.  That is the job of Children, enforced by law.  no one works for children.  The teacher is the authority, not the child.
> 
> College students are generally to avail themselves of Office Hours for just these things, but it's a stretch to tell your daughter that she pays the prof's salary.  She is paying for an education, but that prof doesn't give it to her, that's not his job, it is her job to Get An Education, to use all the resources that she is paying to have available to her.  The prof is a tiny component of that and I'm not willing to entertain the notion that a prof "works for" dozens of college students.


 
Sorry, ladies.  We are actually in agreement.  I didn't state my point well.  My mistake.  What I am trying to say is that we should be teaching children that education is a commodity they or their parents are purchasing and we should be trying to get the most out of that purchase.  My use of the word "child" does not preclude an adult child as in my adult daughter attending college.  She is still my child.

And, of course, there should be mutual respect between the student (of whatever age) and the instructor/teacher/professor.  

When I brought up the money part with my DD it was to get her to take responsibility for her own learning as in "if you don't understand what is being taught, go to the professor individually and get clarification.  That is what you are paying for."  In other words, take responsibility and not whine that you don't get it.  Otherwise, you are just wasting time and money.  Fortunately, she understood what I was saying and proceeded to take responsibility for going to the instructor for further help.

Heath, I completely understand the part about students just wanting to know what they need to do to get by or to get an A.  That isn't education.  That's not taking personal responsibilty.

And that's my point.  We (parents, society) are not instilling in children (or even adult students) that education is a not a chore we do for the teacher or for the parent.  The student needs to understand that the education is for her/him.  We don't buy something and then leave it at the store (at least I haven't done that very often  ).  We value what we purchase.  We need to teach our children to value the education that is being purchased for them either by society (taxes for public schools), their parents (private school tuition) or by themselves (college, etc).

I don't see that happening very often.


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## Rose Pink (Jun 5, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I don't have much to say on this topic...I don't agree or disagree with either side strong enough to comment...But, i've got to post this for those that say the teacher was wrong to disobey a policy he believed was wrong
> 
> 
> 
> This is my main issue with our criminal justice system as a whole....It doesn't get people an ability to  stand trial on the unjust laws, but on the people that have been accused of disobeying those unjust laws


 
Ride, while I agree with Mr. Jefferson in principle, if everyone disobeyed any and every law they felt was wrong we would have anarchy.  I don't think Jefferson was proposing that.  

Yes, some laws are wrong and society needs to change them but we are best served by going through proper legal channels first.  Only after that and after public awareness campaigns should we proceed to civil disobedience.  And those who participate in civil disobedience may need to pay the ultimate price.  

I'm curious.  What are you willing to die for?


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## Rose Pink (Jun 5, 2012)

Any parent knows that a toddler tries to mimic what s/he sees and hears.  Those tiny people seem to love learning!  What happens between then and the time a child decides whether or not to _perform_ for the teacher or for a grade?  When does the love of learning for learning's sake disappear?


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## Ridewithme38 (Jun 5, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> I'm curious.  What are you willing to die for?





> The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure.
> Thomas Jefferson



To be completely honest, i was much less scared of death and imprisonment before my daughter was born...My current worry is just as selfish as fear, its the worry of what my children and their children will feel about my actions...i've never thought about my legacy before her birth

At this point...Beyond my blood(family), i don't know that there is anything i'm willing to die for


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## Rose Pink (Jun 5, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> To be completely honest, i was much less scared of death and imprisonment before my daughter was born...My current worry is just as selfish as fear, its the worry of what my children and their children will feel about my actions...i've never thought about my legacy before her birth
> 
> At this point...Beyond my blood(family), i don't know that there is anything i'm willing to die for


Welcome to parenthood.  It changes everything, does it not?


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## ScoopKona (Jun 5, 2012)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Ahhh .... I understand now. Raising children is too important of a task to be entrusted to parents.



If the parents want a curriculum that includes people and dinosaurs living together, that the moon landings were a hoax, or that Steinbeck should be banned, then yes.


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## Larry6417 (Jun 6, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> Again, I did not say it is my position that a teacher should quit rather than fight and, in fact, it is _not_ my position no matter how much you want to put words in my mouth...





Rose Pink said:


> I did leave a job that was asking me to do something I believed unprofessional and immoral.



My apologies for assuming that you meant what you wrote.


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## Larry6417 (Jun 6, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> However, we also have an issue of an adult who is being defiant.  Not that is always a bad thing.  I'm certainly grateful for those who stand up for justice and freedom.



Yes, you did say the above. But you also go on to say




Rose Pink said:


> Not sure he is the hero people are making him out to be.



It’s obvious (from your words, not mine) that you don’t consider this teacher to be in the prior category.

Rose, we agree on the main issue: the policy is idiotic. However, we disagree on what to do about it. I suspect you have greater respect for authority than I do. I don’t believe in mindless obedience or mindless opposition. I believe the teacher in question is right to oppose an idiotic policy. You’ve stated that he could have circumvented the policy easily, but you give no evidence for that assertion. He’s been a teacher for 35 years. I suspect he knows more about circumventing foolish policy than both of us put together.


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## spirits (Jun 6, 2012)

*Ahem, IMHO*

I truly understand what the proponents of this policy are advocating.  I too allow students to complete late assignments 1. when their parents are aware of them being late and 2. in such a way that it does not compromise the work done by those who get the assignments in on time.
I have worked with at risk students for years and have a great deal of respect for some of the hardships they are facing in their young lives.  I account for that but in the end I have a responsibility to society to educate them for a world that does not reward indolence.  If they do not complete assignments eventually whatever designation I have on the grading system will revert to a 0.  And that is the problem with this system.  All incomplete assignments are valued as if they were completed and given the same status of completed work. 
The proponents of this system have not allowed for the fact that a well meaning teacher who has tried to have students complete work and the students have still not complied, does not have a means of noting this and missed work becomes a "reward" to these students.
Why cannot teachers be required to assign the letter evaluation up to the time of report cards, allow students time to make up missed work, but then enter the mark of 0 before the report cards are printed out?  Our grade book is made available to parents on line so they have all sorts of opportunities to check on their child's progress.  There would be proof that the teacher was following policy up to the time of report cards and I believe that this would solve all the problems.  However, IMHO the creators of this policy do not want to concede to this strategy and their inflexibility is causing the dilemma.


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## ampaholic (Jun 6, 2012)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Ahhh .... I understand now. Raising children is too important of a task to be entrusted to parents.



Come on Steve - you stated an idyllic notion that while great in Viking times is  *unsupportable* in the modern world - get over it.

It is all well and good for the Viking dad to teach his own kids how to rape and plunder his way, but the Aztec dads and the Scots dads and the Florentine dads each have their own special ways of raping and plundering. 

As long as they are thousands of miles apart - no issue. When you put them all together in a single society and a single school you have to come up with a unified curriculum or anarchy breaks out.

Unless of course *you* want to bow down to Odin - then I'll support you?


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## geekette (Jun 6, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> Come on Steve - you stated an idyllic notion that while great in Viking times is  *unsupportable* in the modern world - get over it.
> 
> It is all well and good for the Viking dad to teach his own kids how to rape and plunder his way, but the Aztec dads and the Scots dads and the Florentine dads each have their own special ways of raping and plundering.
> 
> ...



I propose that the unified curriculum omit rape.


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## ampaholic (Jun 6, 2012)

geekette said:


> I propose that the unified curriculum omit rape.



I'm OK with that as long as we can keep in the 3 types of plundering and the "no monkey poo throwing allowed" - deal?


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## Rose Pink (Jun 6, 2012)

Larry6417 said:


> My apologies for assuming that you meant what you wrote.


 
Oh, Larry, Larry, Larry. Just because I ended a consulting job for moral reasons doesn't mean I think everyone should do the same.  I did _not_ state that the teacher in question _should _quit his job. That is only one of many options.

When an employee is faced with policies he does not like or that he finds truly repugnant, he can do many things including but not limited to:
1. Keeping his mouth shut and following the required policy.
2. Speaking out while still following the policy.
3. Ignoring the policy.  In which case, the employee should prepare himself for suspension or termination.
4. Resigning.

I chose #4.  Said teacher chose #3.  I never said the teacher should choose option 4, only that I did.







Larry6417 said:


> Yes, you did say the above. But you also go on to say
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Because I said "I'm *not sure *he is the hero people are making him out to be" that means I definitely don't think, or obviously don't think he is?  C'mon, Larry, that's a stretch.  

We may not disagree on what to do about the policy.  As my previous posts have made very clear, I don't believe in mindless obedience or mindless opposition, either.  And I do believe the teacher, as well as anyone else, has a right to oppose policy, whether it is idiotic or not.  

However, as I have stated, when a person chooses to buck authority, that person shouldn't be surprised there are consequences.  It's a double-edged sword.  You follow your conscience while at the same time breaking a law (or in this case, policy).  Either way, there is a dent in integrity.  You either break faith with your conscience or you break faith with your word (meaning you refuse to do what you signed an employee contract stating you would do, which usually includes a catch-all phrase "and other duties as assigned" or something similar). 

Cheer up, Larry!   The teacher has been suspended for not following policy but maybe it will turn out alright in the end.  The policy may get overturned due to public outcry and he could get a hero's promotion.


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## geekette (Jun 6, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> I'm OK with that as long as we can keep in the 3 types of plundering and the "no monkey poo throwing allowed" - deal?



So long as guidelines on when plundering is acceptable, and which type to use in different situations, we have a deal.  

definitely against monkey poo throwing, altho I think it should be taught in the home.  As important as it is to maintaining civilized society, sure, keep it in there until parents pick up the slack.


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## Rose Pink (Jun 6, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> ...
> 
> It is all well and good for the Viking dad to teach his own kids how to rape and plunder his way, but the Aztec dads and the Scots dads and the Florentine dads each have their own special ways of raping and plundering.
> 
> ...


Well, there's always home school.  Just sayin'....


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## Ridewithme38 (Jun 6, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> Come on Steve - you stated an idyllic notion that while great in Viking times is  *unsupportable* in the modern world - get over it.
> 
> It is all well and good for the Viking dad to teach his own kids how to rape and plunder his way, but the Aztec dads and the Scots dads and the Florentine dads each have their own special ways of raping and plundering.
> 
> ...





geekette said:


> I propose that the unified curriculum omit rape.





geekette said:


> So long as guidelines on when plundering is acceptable, and which type to use in different situations, we have a deal.
> 
> definitely against monkey poo throwing, altho I think it should be taught in the home.  As important as it is to maintaining civilized society, sure, keep it in there until parents pick up the slack.



I believe as others do that Plundering should be held to a higher standard and not taught until college...I believe most of those that have excelled in it have learned it in business school.  The young mind just isn't strong enough to handle the pure brutal hatred that is required and when taught too early have started to show signs of 'emo-ish'


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## Rose Pink (Jun 6, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> ...When you put them all together in a single society and a single school you have to come up with *a unified curriculum or anarchy breaks out.*


On a more serious note, I think that is why this thread exists in the first place.  There was a policy that not everyone wanted to follow.  Anarchy is a possibilty when people choose not to play by the rules.  Revolution can also produce positive changes.  It can go either way. We ought to be careful how we manage revolt.  Controlled explosions power our cars.  Uncontrolled explosions kill.

People do not agree on a unified curriculum any more than we can agree on who should win American Idol.  Some think only the three R's need to be taught.  Others give, IMO, excellent reasons why the arts and physical education should be included.  Someone has to make the decisions and others are not going to like them.  Fortunately, we live in a democratic society where we can vote out one school board and vote in another.

As far as teaching methods and testing procedures and grading policies--again, not all the pundits agree on the best approach.  That's because there isn't one "best" approach.  One size does not fit all.  In a perfect education system, each child would receive an education tailored to his own learning style and capabilities.  However, in the real world with 30 or more students in a class, and limited funds, that isn't going to happen.

Let me throw out another real world example.  My sister taught junior high school thirty years ago.  She told me there was a girl who was failing.  She didn't show up for classes much of the time and when she did, she slept through them. Turns out this young girl was being used as a prostitute and was exhausted.  I don't remember the details, so don't bother asking, but apparently neither the parents nor the state was able to do enough to protect her from her pimp.  I don't remember why.  Anyway, the school decided to make a deal with her.  In order to do the only thing they could to provide protection to her during school hours, they told her she would get an A just for showing up.  School and that A was the only kindness she had in her life.  As I said, that was at least 30 years ago and schools have had many  layers of bureaucracy placed on them in that time.


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## Rose Pink (Jun 6, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I believe as others do that Plundering should be held to a higher standard and not taught until college...I believe most of those that have excelled in it have learned it in business school.  .....


:hysterical: :hysterical:  Laughing until I am crying.  So true.  So sad.


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## hypnotiq (Jun 6, 2012)

This reminds me of the proposal in the UK back in 2005 where they wanted to eliminate "failed" with "delayed success". 

Im still looking for the original article but here is an article in 2006 that refers to what Im talking about.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/mortarboard/2006/aug/03/ifatfirstyoudontsucceed


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## Rose Pink (Jun 6, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> This reminds me of the proposal in the UK back in 2005 where they wanted to eliminate "failed" with "delayed success".
> 
> Im still looking for the original article but here is an article in 2006 that refers to what Im talking about.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/mortarboard/2006/aug/03/ifatfirstyoudontsucceed


“I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”  
 ―Thomas Edison

Words do make a difference and we are best served if we choose them carefully.  

I think failing or not succeeding is a good experience.  I hate it when it happens to me but I learn from it.  We shouldn't be ashamed or afraid of failure if we've given it a good, honest try.  Sometimes people won't even try because they are afraid of failing.  If I don't do the work, I can't fail.  That seems to be the problem with the no-zero policy.  I think it teaches children not to try so that they won't face failure.


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## ampaholic (Jun 6, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I believe as others do that Plundering should be held to a higher standard and not taught until college...I believe most of those that have excelled in it have learned it in business school.  The young mind just isn't strong enough to handle the pure brutal hatred that is required and when taught too early have started to show signs of 'emo-ish'



Harvard is of course the top plundering school, I think Yale is second in the teaching of classical plundering. Stanford leads the way in High Tech plundering I believe.

My High School taught several PP 101 (Plundering Prep) courses - I suppose the Whittier School Board was ahead of it's time due to the Richard Nixon influence  

As far as the young mind goes - that is when the brutal hatred must be instilled or else it might not take.


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## spirits (Jun 7, 2012)

*Some humor*

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/opinion/editorial-cartoons/index.html


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## Rose Pink (Jun 7, 2012)

spirits said:


> http://www.edmontonjournal.com/opinion/editorial-cartoons/index.html



If the issue has made the editorial cartoons, maybe it can be resolved soon.  The key is to keep it on the front burner.  People have a tendency to get riled up but then go on about their business.  Public outcry dies down and nothing gets changed.  Not only should parents be flooding the inboxes of the board members, etc so should concerned citizens who don't have children in school.  Education affects everyone.  Take your neighbors with you to the school board meetings then go out for pie afterward.  

Well thought out letters without angry accusations work better than pants on fire letters.  Also, if given the chance to testify before the board or administration, repetition generally is not helpful.  Try to have everyone add something new to the testimony.  You will probably be given something like three minutes to make your comments so plan out ahead of time what you want to say and practice it.


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## TUGBrian (Jun 7, 2012)

hope another school system without this ridiculous policy hires the guy...pretty rare for someone to stand up for something they believe in despite these consequences (ie losing his job).

Also hope his students that do accomplish the work support him and understand why he did what he did.


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## Rose Pink (Jun 7, 2012)

TUGBrian said:


> hope another school system without this ridiculous policy hires the guy...pretty rare for someone to stand up for something they believe in despite these consequences (ie losing his job).
> 
> Also hope his students that do accomplish the work support him and understand why he did what he did.



This is a great opportunity for students to actually practice what they learn in civics class.  They may not be old enough to vote (although some of his previous students can) but they can still write letters to express their views and how the policy has affected them.

Education should be useful and used.


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## hypnotiq (Jun 7, 2012)

The more I read about stuff like this teacher and the delayed success crap, the more irritated it makes me.

We are doing a disservice to future generations.

In the real world, you do fail.
In the real world, you do not get "participation" awards.
In the real world, there are consequences for being late.
In the real world, seldom are there "do overs".

I'm starting to sound like a grumpy old man and I'm only 33.

I'm just so sick of the entitlement attitudes and the lack of work ethic that exists today.


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## geekette (Jun 7, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> The more I read about stuff like this teacher and the delayed success crap, the more irritated it makes me.
> 
> We are doing a disservice to future generations.
> 
> ...



Yep. "The world owes me a living" is one of those things that irritates me greatly.  

The "self-esteem" curriculum has been tossed out in many areas and then got popular in others.  It is a disservice.  

Not keeping score in sports is just plain ODD to me.  Why can't we teach that The Best is only ever One, but doing YOUR best always makes you a winner?  How are kids now suddenly incapable of absorbing a loss and using it to motivate them?  Doesn't seem to me that many people my age suffer long term damage from a childhood game at school that they lost.   I don't have nightmares about tests that I didn't ace.


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## MuranoJo (Jun 7, 2012)

There's too much coddling going on these days.

I even see it in someone very close to me.  Kids are both out of school, have never worked a day in their lives, and--guess what?--they're both still living at home with no jobs.


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## Larry6417 (Jun 7, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> Because I said "I'm *not sure *he is the hero people are making him out to be" that means I definitely don't think, or obviously don't think he is?  C'mon, Larry, that's a stretch.




Ah, Rose, Rose, Rose, I see now. You _didn’t_ deny he was a hero exactly the way you _didn’t_ label him a malcontent.



Rose Pink said:


> We don't know if he was a problem in other areas and this is just the one the administration could prove.  The zero policy could just be a smokescreen covering up other inadequacies.  I don't know.



I’m not saying that you twist the meaning of your words when it’s convenient to do so. Not at all. 

P.S. Rose, do you design push polls for a living? Just wondering...


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## Larry6417 (Jun 7, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> Cheer up, Larry!   The teacher has been suspended for not following policy but maybe it will turn out alright in the end.  The policy may get overturned due to public outcry and he could get a hero's promotion.



We agree on something (besides the fact that the policy is ridiculous). I *do *need to cheer up. Arguing about educational policy makes me a dull (duller?) boy. We’re going to have to agree to disagree. In a for-profit enterprise the boss has the right to be stupid. In a publicly funded, not-for-profit entity where the ultimate purpose is the education of young people (in theory, if not in practice) I believe the ethos should be different. Rose, have a great day and a better week!


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## Rose Pink (Jun 8, 2012)

Larry6417 said:


> Ah, Rose, Rose, Rose, I see now. You _didn’t_ deny he was a hero exactly the way you _didn’t_ label him a malcontent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
That's right, Larry, I didn't twist the meaning of my words, you did.  Glad you finally got that.  Enlightenment is a good thing.

When I am not certain about something and my brain sees different possibilites I mention some of them, hoping others with more info can shed some informed light. For you to pounce on one of those possibilities or wonderings and insist it is my definite opinion, when it was only a  , is contrived.  

And it's been entertaining, Larry.  Thanks.:hysterical:   I check here just to see what you come up with next. ("Hmmm, how is Larry going to twist this one?")  I have wondered if you just wanted to argue for sport and were twisting what I said just so you _could_ argue with it.)

The only thing I _am_ sure about in this thread is that the no zero rule is irrresponsible for a general population.  I concede it may be viable for a certain subset of students in a certain set of circumstances but not as the primary form of grading for everyone.


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## Rose Pink (Jun 8, 2012)

Larry6417 said:


> .... Rose, have a great day and a better week!


You, too, buddy.  

As my DS says, "it's all good."  That's my motto.  So it's always a good day!


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## Ridewithme38 (Jun 8, 2012)

Rose Pink said:


> The only thing I _am_ sure about in this thread is that the no zero rule is irrresponsible for a general population.  I concede it may be viable for a certain subset of students in a certain set of circumstances but not as the primary form of grading for everyone.



I agree with this, the reason i haven't really commented on the 'facts' of this thread is because....i don't know that i have the experience or data to decide that the school this teacher was teaching at Was or Wasn't part of that subset where it is viable...I don't know the community or the students so i don't know if this is a good option due to low income of families, or a 90%+ student population that just doesn't care


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## spirits (Jun 8, 2012)

*This is an elite school*

The school where this teacher worked has had a reputation as being an elite school for athletics and academics.  Very well established in an affluent community but with our open boundaries draws students in from all over the city.  It was to be my high school but I chose to attend a downtown highschool because it offered high quality tailoring courses.  I wanted to be a sewing teacher when I was young   My husband went to this school and the focus was always on high academic achievement.


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## pjrose (Jun 14, 2012)

*rules for kids*

Just encountered the list below (wrongly attributed to Bill Gates and not always exactly as written below, but snopes.com straightened out the source) and it reminded me of this thread.  

One of many sources that have reprinted the list:

http://www.usafa82.org/spec_int/wit_wisdom/rules.htm


SOME RULES KIDS WON'T LEARN IN SCHOOL

San Diego Union Tribune -- Charles J. Sykes

Unfortunately, there are some things that children should be learning in school, but don't. Not all of them have to do with academics. As a modest back-to-school offering, here are some basic rules that may not have found their way into the standard curriculum.

_1. Life is not fair. Get used to it. The average teen-ager uses the phrase, "It's not fair" 8.6 times a day. You got it from your parents, who said it so often you decided they must be the most idealistic generation ever. When they started hearing it from their own kids.

2. The real world won't care as much about your self-esteem as much as your school does. It'll expect you to accomplish something before you feel good about yourself. This may come as a shock. Usually, when inflated self-esteem meets reality, kids complain it's not fair.

 3. Sorry, you won't make $40,000 a year right out of high school. And you won't be a vice president or have a car phone either. You may even have to wear a uniform that doesn't have a Gap label.

 4. If you think your teacher is tough, wait 'til you get a boss. He doesn't have tenure, so he tends to be a bit edgier. When you screw up, he's not going to ask you how you feel about it.

 5. Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word of burger flipping. They called it opportunity. They weren't embarrassed making minimum wage either. They would have been embarrassed to sit around talking about Kurt Cobain or Britney Speers all weekend.

 6. It's not your parents' fault. If you screw up, you are responsible. This is the flip side of "It's my life," and "You're not the boss of me," and other eloquent proclamations of your generation. When you turn 18, it's on your dime. Don't whine about it, or you'll sound like a kid.

 7. Before you were born your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way paying your bills, cleaning up your room and listening to you tell them how idealistic you are. And by the way, before you save the rain forest from the blood-sucking parasites of your parents' generation, try delousing the closet in your bedroom.

 8. Your school may have done away with winners and losers. Life hasn't. In some schools, they'll give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. Failing grades have been abolished and class valedictorians scrapped, lest anyone's feelings be hurt. Effort is as important as results.  This, of course, bears not the slightest resemblance to anything in real life.

 9. Life is not divided into semesters, and you don't get summers off. Not even Easter break. They expect you to show up every day. For eight hours. And you don't get a new life every 10 weeks. It just goes on and on. While we're at it, very few jobs are interesting in fostering your self-expression or helping you find yourself. Fewer still lead to self-realization.

10. Television is not real life. Your life is not a sitcom. Your problems will not all be solved in 30 minutes, minus time for commercials. In real life, people actually have to leave the coffee shop to go to jobs. Your friends will not be as perky or pliable as Jennifer Aniston.

11. Be nice to nerds. You may end up working for them. We all could.

12. Smoking does not make you look cool. It makes you look moronic. Next time you're out cruising, watch an 11-year-old with a butt in his mouth. That's what you look like to anyone over 20. Ditto for "expressing yourself" with purple hair and/or pierced body parts.

 13. You are not immortal. If you are under the impression that living fast, dying young and leaving a beautiful corpse is romantic, you obviously haven't seen one of your peers at room temperature lately.

14. Enjoy this while you can. Sure parents are a pain, school's a bother, and life is depressing. But someday you'll realize how wonderful it as to be a kid. Maybe you should start now.
_


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## DeniseM (Jun 14, 2012)

Pj - That list is just not fair!


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## easyrider (Jun 14, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> Pj - That list is just not fair!



lol:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## spirits (Jun 15, 2012)

*An update*

Apparently on Tuesday, the school board had a meeting open to the public.  A few letters to the editor and small news stories were made public. Mostly overwhelming support for the teacher from post secondary schools, retired leaders in the education field and members of the business community along with many teachers, students and their parents.  Ahem.....the board has decided to look over their reports and has deferred any decisions until fall.  I have not heard whether the teacher in question is still on leave, retiring, or has been reinstated.  We are writing final exams the next two weeks in our schools so even if he returned he would not be in a classroom with his students reviewing course materials.


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## spirits (Jun 26, 2012)

*Meeting today at noon*

Our education board members called an emergency meeting today at noon.  Our students are writing exams all this week and I guess the trustees want a unified policy in place before report cards are mailed out.  Right now the policy is in place but is not mandated in all schools.  (you know how having a rule that noone follows is soooooooo effective )
The teacher was interviewed today and stated that he expects he will get a letter of termination which he plans to contest. He will be speaking to the board.  Public support for him has been very positive.


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## hvacrsteve (Jul 3, 2012)

Common sense isn't common anymore!

Few people have it and fewer people use it anymore!

When something so absurd like this happens we loose more faith
in the system.
All facets of our institutions are failing because we are failing!

It is just a matter of time before we loose it all.

This is just a crack in the foundation walls, pretty soon the walls will be falling as well.

Nothing in life is free, if it is free to you, someone else had to pay for it.

When that person decides to stop working to pay for it, then it can't continue.

We are almost to that tipping point now.

Just remember nothing in life is free, if you didn't work for it, you don't deserve it, so give it back, its not yours to keep!


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## pgnewarkboy (Jul 4, 2012)

*Life is free.*

Nothing in life is free?  I have heard that many times.  Is that common sense?  The most important , essential things in life are free.  Life itself is free.  Ever hear of the gift of life?  The air is free for all. The mountains, the rivers, the oceans, the soil.  All of it free.  A gift so to speak for all of us who inhabit this beautiful planet.


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