# OLD/Closed General Discussion Thread:  C-19/Hawaii.  Will Hawaii re-open Oct. 15th? (+ NEW POLL)



## DeniseM

Please see the new poll above the thread ∆∆∆.

I started this new thread, because the old one was getting too long - it is still available here: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/t...or-all-hawaii-coronavirus-discussions.304580/


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## DeniseM

From the very beginning, I predicted that Hawaii would re-open in October, but it doesn't look like that is happening.  I think they will make a big push to reopen for the very lucrative holidays, so I am changing my prediction to Dec. 1st.


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## slip

DeniseM said:


> From the very beginning, I predicted that Hawaii would re-open in October, but it doesn't look like that is happening.  I think they will make a big push to reopen for the very lucrative holidays, so I am changing my prediction to Dec. 1st.



I agree with you but I am including Thanksgiving so I went with November. November may end out with just inter-island with no quarantine though. I know there are a lot of locals really getting tired of not being able to see family on other islands.


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## DeniseM

Good point, Jeff! I hadn't thought about TG.


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## Luanne

Could we add a category "Sometime in the future"?


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## DeniseM

Nope - "sometime in the future" is no vote at all!


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## b2bailey

*[WE  HAVE A WINNER!  (MAYBE) DeniseM]*

I'm voting for *10/15.*
Who says it has to be a 30 day window?
Also, I like idea of resort bubble. Any chance Maui will do that?


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## jabberwocky

b2bailey said:


> I'm voting for 10/15.
> Who says it has to be a 30 day window?
> Also, I like idea of resort bubble. Any chance Maui will do that?


I hope not. That would destroy the whole purpose of going to Maui if I can’t go in the ocean. It would be a nice jail, but a jail nonetheless.


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## controller1

jabberwocky said:


> I hope not. That would destroy the whole purpose of going to Maui if I can’t go in the ocean. It would be a nice jail, but a jail nonetheless.



I agree, as the cost of flights and other expenses of Hawaii are too much to acquire only a little larger prison with an outdoor recreation yard.


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## slip

Remember, on these resort bubbles. The resort would have to draw up a plan and submit it for approval. Some resorts are better set up to be able to handle this. So each resort will decide if they will participate.


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## DannyTS

@DeniseM I voted for November but I think there is a decent possibility (I hope not) it will close again in a couple of months. As you can see, I resisted voting for the last option


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## b2bailey

jabberwocky said:


> I hope not. That would destroy the whole purpose of going to Maui if I can’t go in the ocean. It would be a nice jail, but a jail nonetheless.


As with many things in life, there is the implied "compared to what" which can vary from A to Z. I'm my case, I made the decision that I WILL GO to Maui in mid October, for my 70th Birthday, even if I must go alone, and must quarantine. I've been to Hawaii too many times to count, so that is a factor in my decision. Two more -- when we started planning this family adventure, back in June, I committed to about $1,000 in non-refundable reservations. Also, on August 31 I moved from my desert apartment and put all into storage. So, 14 days in lock-up (or is it lock down?) will just be a stop-gap in my future plans. I will be there a 3rd week to celebrate my freedom, and might even stay longer. This is why I would prefer a resort bubble over complete quarantine.


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## PigsDad

Where is the "I don't wan't to talk about this, so I am going to post pictures of butterflies instead of ignoring this" option for the poll?     

Kurt


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## DeniseM

Kurt - I wish I had thought of that!!!!!


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## 1Kflyerguy

b2bailey said:


> Also, I like idea of resort bubble. Any chance Maui will do that?



A while back i read that both Maui and Kauai had applied to open resort bubbles.    So far i have only heard of Kauai being approved to move forward with the bubble idea.  

Originally i was interested in the idea, but currently i am a lot less interested.  In the end it will probably depend on how they actually implement the bubble, what resorts are involved, and other factors like my general comfort with travel by the time they actually get something implemented.


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## echino

Under resort bubble, can you go to the beach in front of the resort and swim in the ocean?


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## DeniseM

echino said:


> Under resort bubble, can you go to the beach in front of the resort and swim in the ocean



The resort writes the Bubble Plan, so I don't know why they wouldn't include the beach and ocean.


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## Tamaradarann

DeniseM said:


> From the very beginning, I predicted that Hawaii would re-open in October, but it doesn't look like that is happening.  I think they will make a big push to reopen for the very lucrative holidays, so I am changing my prediction to Dec. 1st.


I agree with you for two reasons:

One is that Thanksgiving is not a big deal in Hawaii.  The Holiday is only a few days off for working people and schools.  The Christmas/New Years is a Holiday season and is a big deal and a long enough vacation to make the trip.  It is also a gift giving and gift buying Holiday.

Two the Hilton Hawaiian Village, the largest resort in Hawaii, has moved back its reservation taking until December 1.  They may or may not know something that we don't, or perhaps they are actually involved somewhat in the decision making.  The Hilton Hawaiian Village runs a number of special events in Honolulu for Tourists as well as Locals such as the Friday Fireworks, the Duke's Challenge, some Hawaiian Contests like Queen Narcissis as well as loads of Conferences and Conventions they are a main economic driver with over 10,000 rooms and obviously many jobs that are now gone.


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## jabberwocky

DeniseM said:


> The resort writes the Bubble Plan, so I don't know why they wouldn't include the beach and ocean.


I think all beaches in Hawaii are public lands - could the resort block off the beaches legally and consider them part of the resort?


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## CalGalTraveler

I think it will open in May 2021. This was about the time things started to recover for the 1918 pandemic and the Hawaiian economy will need the summer boost.


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## DeniseM

jabberwocky said:


> I think all beaches in Hawaii are public lands - could the resort block off the beaches legally and consider them part of the resort?



Why would it have to be blocked off?


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## jabberwocky

DeniseM said:


> Why would it have to be blocked off?


Isn't the whole point to keep toursists in isolation so they don't infect the local population?  One would think they would need to prevent locals from coming into the bubble - no?


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## controller1

jabberwocky said:


> Isn't the whole point to keep toursists in isolation so they don't infect the local population?  One would think they would need to prevent locals from coming into the bubble - no?



And wouldn't they need to keep those in the bubble from straying outside of the bubble?


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## DeniseM

Hmmm - good question.  If they are outdoors and socially distancing it should be fine, but not sure exactly how it would work out.  In the same vein, how will they keep locals off resort property?


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## DeniseM

controller1 said:


> And wouldn't they need to keep those in the bubble from straying outside of the bubble



They will have ankle bracelets and know what they have to do.


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## controller1

DeniseM said:


> Hmmm - good question.  If they are outdoors and socially distancing it should be fine, but not sure exactly how it would work out.  In the same vein, how will they keep locals off resort property?



That's a good question. From what I've read, the resort would be responsible for ensuring the bubble's integrity. I can't imagine the number of additional employees it would take to police this.


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## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> I agree with you for two reasons:
> 
> One is that Thanksgiving is not a big deal in Hawaii.  The Holiday is only a few days off for working people and schools.  The Christmas/New Years is a Holiday season and is a big deal and a long enough vacation to make the trip.  It is also a gift giving and gift buying Holiday.
> 
> Two the Hilton Hawaiian Village, the largest resort in Hawaii, has moved back its reservation taking until December 1.  They may or may not know something that we don't, or perhaps they are actually involved somewhat in the decision making.  The Hilton Hawaiian Village runs a number of special events in Honolulu for Tourists as well as Locals such as the Friday Fireworks, the Duke's Challenge, some Hawaiian Contests like Queen Narcissis as well as loads of Conferences and Conventions they are a main economic driver with over 10,000 rooms and obviously many jobs that are now gone.


I read somewhere today one of the Mayors or similar made a comment about knowing their plans but still working with or checking with businesses. Made me think that they are consulting hotels and others behind the scenes. So. as big as HHV is, they may well know something.


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## csodjd

jabberwocky said:


> Isn't the whole point to keep toursists in isolation so they don't infect the local population?  One would think they would need to prevent locals from coming into the bubble - no?


It's like a Leper Colony. Locals will stay away from people quarantining.


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## b2bailey

csodjd said:


> It's like a Leper Colony. Locals will stay away from people quarantining.


I had a similar thought -- like the TB wards of years past. But lepers suits it beter.


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## Chrispee

For the past decade we’ve taken an average of 2+ trips to the Hawaiian Islands each year.  So much of what we love is predicated on freedom to roam the islands freely so I can’t imagine returning to a resort bubble scenario.  Certainly the price premium over other tropical destinations would become much slimmer from a value perspective.


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## MommaBear

I guessed January, only because, well, absolutely no real reason. I'm wondering if they might avoid December, only because it does draw so many people in for the holidays.

I'm really hoping they require negative tests to get on the airplane, as that to me is the riskiest part of travel. I know the airlines are working on solution, just would like some reassurance. Yes, I realize that people could turn positive after they take the tests, but I know I'd be more cautious for two weeks before getting the test, knowing I might lose out on a trip. 

I'm also fine with the idea of a resort bubble. I just want to go.


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## jabberwocky

csodjd said:


> It's like a Leper Colony. Locals will stay away from people quarantining.


Maybe we can rename Ka'anapali to Kalaupapa to confuse the locals


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## JanT

Honestly, I'm not sure they would.  Look at how many people are mingling now without a care in the world.  I'm not sure Hawaii would be any different but maybe.



csodjd said:


> It's like a Leper Colony. Locals will stay away from people quarantining.


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## Tank

Phewww
The Dave’s didn’t make the server list for trying to humor themselves thru the pandemic. 

We are crossing our fingers as I am making reservations for mid May honeymoon for my son. 
Want Maui for a week than Honolulu for a week. Actually booked 11 nights in Maui in case they can’t island hop. Put in a search thru RCI to land something In Honolulu the next week. Can just leave a little early to make both work depending on what I find.
Also thinking ahead to go to Maui first because you can fly to Honolulu now from other islands but not vise-a-versa. 
I picked Feb because as it gets cold and we spend more time indoors. Praying for a vaccine.
Dave


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## JanT

I cast my vote for after February 2021 because I can't help but wonder if the government isn't trying to get through the worst of it before they allow visitors back in.  It will further decimate the economy but perhaps they feel human life is more valuable and will figure out how to deal with the economy later.  I don't know - it's a crapshoot.  

I personally would go if there was a resort bubble and have no problem letting them put a tracking device on me.  I'm not sure where the harm in that would be if I was planning on doing what I was supposed to be doing.  But, everyone is different.


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## Tucsonadventurer

Does anyone know if resort bubble includes the beach directly in front of the hotel?


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## csodjd

Tank said:


> Praying for a vaccine.


Probably another thread, or survey, but it begs the question -- how quickly are you willing to line up for a vaccine? 

Myself, putting all politics aside (though politics makes it worse), I'm in no hurry to be at the front of the line for ANY new vaccine. Let me see at least 6 months and 20 million people first. Our bodies are each so unique in the biochemistry and immunological details, I'm not ready to conclude that just because 30,000 people were okay, it's safe and effective. I'd rather stay 6 feet apart and wear a mask for a while before putting new mRNA technology in me. 

From a technical standpoint, the idea of mRNA (which is good, but has not yet been successfully used in any vaccine) is that mRNA forms the basis for creating a small part of the virus (in this case the "corona" or spikes), which itself cannot do anything (it has none of the virus DNA/RNA) but the body recognizes as a foreign object and creates antibodies and T cells to attack that part. Then when the virus comes along those immune particles are already there and they attack the virus because it contains the spike. 

Lots of things that could go wrong there. The shorter the RNA/DNA the more likely it is to be similar to a part we actually need in our body, for instance. Don't want to create an auto-immune storm. Or might the virus rather enjoy that the mRNA is already there and be able to replicate better and faster? 

I want a vaccine. I want lots of others to give it a try first.


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## csodjd

Mixed but mostly unchanged case data today. Cases up slightly to 102. First daily increase in a while and may reflect some Labor Day weekend coming through. ICU up from 53 to 60.

No material impact on the 7-day moving average which is at 118.4. 7-day positive test rate dropped slightly to 2.1%, which is still very good and well below the Federal guideline of 5%.


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## DeniseM

WE HAVE A WINNER!  *Oct. 15th! * Or at least that's the latest delay:








						VIDEO: Gov. David Ige says Hawaii COVID-19 pre-arrival testing program to begin Oct. 15
					

Gov. David Ige today set Oct. 15 as the new date to launch a pre-arrivals testing program to reopen tourism in Hawaii.




					www.staradvertiser.com
				



However, the poll winner will not be verified until Hawaii actually opens.


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## Norcal5

Updated: Quarantine Ends October 15 With Testing
					

Live reporting on end to mandatory quarantine.



					beatofhawaii.com


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## LannyPC

The big question though is Is this written in stone or is it subject to change pending a possible, unforeseen outbreak?


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## CPNY

LannyPC said:


> The big question though is Is this written in stone or is it subject to change pending a possible, unforeseen outbreak?


The way things have been going, it will most likely change


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## DannyTS

In a very Ige-esque  style, details to follow.


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## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> I read somewhere today one of the Mayors or similar made a comment about knowing their plans but still working with or checking with businesses. Made me think that they are consulting hotels and others behind the scenes. So. as big as HHV is, they may well know something.



Well if the Governor actually makes the commitment to October 15th then perhaps the HHV didn't know anything.  Now for your reservation and the HHV opening.   I wonder if the HHV will change gears and open by October 15th and therefore, make it possible for you to make your trip.  I know from experience working in large organizations even though it may be quite a challenge if the chief executive of the organization says we are going to do something and there will be no holds barred to accomplishing it, it can and will happen.  You work as many hours a day 7 days a week if necessary and spend whatever is needed on supplies, equipment, and contractors rather than getting the best price.  But you open.  I know I have be part of teams that have done it and it can happen.


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## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> Well if the Governor actually makes the commitment to October 15th then perhaps the HHV didn't know anything.  Now for your reservation and the HHV opening.   I wonder if the HHV will change gears and open by October 15th and therefore, make it possible for you to make your trip.  I know from experience working in large organizations even though it may be quite a challenge if the chief executive of the organization says we are going to do something and there will be no holds barred to accomplishing it, it can and will happen.  You work as many hours a day 7 days a week if necessary and spend whatever is needed on supplies, equipment, and contractors rather than getting the best price.  But you open.  I know I have be part of teams that have done it and it can happen.


It’s a big facility. They may have concern that they’ll commit to Oct 15 only to have a spike and pow, another delay. Seems sticking with Dec 1 may be prudent on their part especially since there won’t likely be a RUSH on Oct. 16.


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## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> In a very Ige-esque  style, details to follow.


Yes, but details aren’t that important, right?


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## DeniseM

Post #40 was in very Danny-esque style...


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## jabberwocky

csodjd said:


> It’s a big facility. They may have concern that they’ll commit to Oct 15 only to have a spike and pow, another delay. Seems sticking with Dec 1 may be prudent on their part especially since there won’t likely be a RUSH on Oct. 16.


I agree. Everything is a bit circular here. Hotels don’t want to open until they know there will be travellers. Airlines don’t want to fly empty planes. Travellers don’t want to travel until they know there will be flights, accommodations, and no quarantine.

It’s extremely easy to turn something off. Much harder to get it started again.


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## DannyTS

DeniseM said:


> Post #40 was in very Danny-esque style...


I was pointing out the obvious, if that is what you mean.


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## JIMinNC

The October 15 date, while a positive move, actually sorta makes our decision on what to do with our January 2021 reservations on Maui, Kauai, and Waikoloa even tougher. The "Plan B" we had developed was to delay our trip to October 2021 if Hawaii didn't reopen soon. We have to cancel our two deeded Marriott weeks outside of 60 days to rebook our owned week (meaning we have to cancel the January 23 check in by around November 23), but to be sure of getting a replacement reservation in October 2021, we really need to make the cancel call sometime in October 2020, so we can be ready to book when the 12 month reservation window opens for Oct '21.

So, do we roll the dice, keep our January reservations, and hope that the Oct 15, 2020 reopening sticks, and isn't reversed if things surge again before January? Or do we play it safe, go ahead and cancel our January reservation next month and re-book for Oct 2021?

Had Hawaii decided to delay once again to Nov 1 or Dec 1, the continued uncertainty would have made the cancel/rebook decision somewhat easier. Now, there is a least positive progress, which makes rolling the dice and keeping the reservations a somewhat more tempting option, but we still don't know what the future will look like. Arghh! 

I think I am probably still leaning toward cancellation and rebooking, since it would not surprise me in the least if Ige changed course again in November or December, given the starts and stops so far. Makes it very difficult to plan with confidence, and I can imagine the frustration of the Hawaiian businesses as well, since they have work to do to get ready to accept guests. I suspect they are having the same discussions in their management meetings. Will this stick?


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## csodjd

JIMinNC said:


> I think I am probably still leaning toward cancellation and rebooking, since it would not surprise me in the least if Ige changed course again in November or December, given the starts and stops so far. Makes it very difficult to plan with confidence, and I can imagine the frustration of the Hawaiian businesses as well, since they have work to do to get ready to accept guests. I suspect they are having the same discussions in their management meetings. Will this stick?


That's why I'm just sticking (no pun intended) with the Jan-Feb reservation. It gives them a fair opportunity to weasel a bit back and forth, delay, etc., and also get their systems and tools up and running, some restaurants reopened, and the hotels back in the flow. And if they reverse course, well, I have my March-April reservations still in place.


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## MULTIZ321

Hawaii to allow travelers to skip quarantine with virus test.










						Hawaii to allow travelers to skip quarantine with virus test
					

HONOLULU (AP) — Hawaii Gov. David Ige said Wednesday that starting Oct. 15, travelers arriving from out of state may bypass a 14-day quarantine requirement if they test negative for...




					apnews.com
				



.


Richard


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## dougp26364

Until this is better controlled, I’ll vacation somewhere else, if at all. Hawaii is to far away and to expensive to risk it IMHO.


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## canesfan

Yay! I just hope it works and they don’t shut down again. Hawai’i’s economy needs it badly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CPNY

canesfan said:


> Yay! I just hope it works and they don’t shut down again. Hawai’i’s economy needs it badly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I feel like these local governments that shut down put businesses in such a bad place to even re open. The Bahamas for example is one of those nations that shut down too long. Now they are pushing for a reopen and “vacation in place” (as if the spike was coming from tourists, which is wasn’t). Problem is, now their two largest hotels baha mar and Atlantis are too big to open and operate at a 20% capacity, if even that. They have shunned people away for so long that most people who would have went back to traveling soon after quarantine, will no longer be traveling. They created uncertainty in booking anything. I don’t see Atlantis or baha mar opening and if they do it will be extremely limited on what’s open. Is it really worth it? I booked Bahamas for thanksgiving week. If it does open a week or two before, I most likely won’t go. I can exchange for Aruba still, and I’ll at least know that restaurants are open. Same with Hawaii. Why travel all that way to sit at a resort? One can sit by any pool stateside for now


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## csodjd

More details. Note the arrival time, not departure time. So, need to do some math and consider flight details (not sure how time changes factor in or what "arrival" means, does that mean landing, or when you check in with authorities at the airport, and is that before or after you get your luggage? ).

Assuming one leaves Los Angeles at 5:52pm, scheduled arrival is 8:37pm (AA). Say it's a Friday flight. If you get tested on Wednesday at 9:00 a.m. PST, that's 6:00a.m. HST. 72 hrs is Saturday morning. So, you'd have all day Thursday and all day Friday to get results back and you'd arrive before 72 hours. 

Say instead you leave in the morning on Saturday, 8:00 am. You arrive at 11:45am HST Saturday. If you get tested at 3:30pm Wednesday that's 12:30pm HST. 72 hrs is 12:30pm HST on Saturday. So you'd have to rush over before the 72 hrs runs out. You'd be screwed if there's a 1 hr flight delay.


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## bryjake

And the what if game begins...
What if results are delayed...
What if results are false positive...

Roll the dice on one outcome
Risk $$$, resources, and time


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## csodjd

bryjake said:


> And the what if game begins...
> What if results are delayed...
> What if results are false positive...
> 
> Roll the dice on one outcome
> Risk $$$, resources, and time


The worst result, I think, is if you land in Hawaii and it's been > 72 hrs since your test. The next worst is if you don't have your results yet and you land, and they come back positive. Those are the two outcomes that need to be avoided at all costs. It's okay, not perfect, but okay if you don't have your results upon landing and have to quarantine for a few hours or a day. But in that case you need to be sure they'll come back negative. 

One approach would be to take two tests. One semi-close to the 72 hr window, the next a day later. That addresses the false positive concern, and gives you two shots at a negative you can run with. 

The other thing is being sure you self-isolate the family for 5-7 or so days before the first test.


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## klpca

Re: covid testing. My friend's 7 year old daughter started running a fever on Friday night (plus the other symptoms - fatigue, headache) so she was in a panic to get her tested. It took some calling around but eventually she found testing with a 24 hour turnaround time (although because of the weekend they didn't get results until Monday - negative). She had her son tested on Monday when he started showing the same signs and he was also negative and his results were back early Tuesday - so not even 24 hours. So if you live in a city, there are probably quick testing resources available but it may take some leg work. Their tests were free - not sure if it was because they are kids or just because the place that she found is just a free testing place.

Also the kids had just gone back to school and even though their covid tests were negative, the kids have to stay home for 72 hours so they are already missing three days of school. Their school isn't messing around - they will send your kids home immediately if they have any symptoms of anything. And I am pretty sure that she said that she has to provide a negative covid test to send her kids back. Fast testing is going to be necessary for things other than travel so hopefully it catches up quickly.


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## JIMinNC

I am beginning to wonder about the testing accuracy though.

Our daughter is a senior at University of Florida. She lives in an off-campus apartment with three roommates. Right before classes started she and a friend went on a three or four night trip to the Tennessee mountains to hike. When she got back, she found out their new freshman roommate had held a big party in the apartment while she was gone. A few days later, that freshman had some mild symptoms and tested positive, as did several other people who were at that party. She went home to quarantine. Within a few days, the three other roommates - including our daughter - all developed identical but very mild symptoms like mild sore throat, loss of smell, body aches, mild shortness of breath when exerting or walking up steps. No fever.

All three remaining girls from the apartment got tested - one tested positive, our daughter and another girl tested negative. Our daughter actually had two tests about four days apart since she was concerned the first test was negative because not enough time had passed. But the second test was also negative. So, out of four roommates with basically the same symptoms, two test positive and two negative. Makes you go, "Hmmm....", Is the testing as accurate in the real world as it is purported to be based on the certification studies?

Makes me very concerned about a false positive before or after arrival in Hawaii as @csodjd alluded to above.


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## GregT

I can't figure out why this October 15th date will be any different from August 1/September 1/October 1 -- and yet the Hawaii article felt it was unlikely that it would be postponed again.  I would be happy to see this date confirmed and not extended again, but I don't know why the Hawaii article is "so confident".  Interesting stuff.....

Best,

Greg


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## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> More details. Note the arrival time, not departure time. So, need to do some math and consider flight details (not sure how time changes factor in or what "arrival" means, does that mean landing, or when you check in with authorities at the airport, and is that before or after you get your luggage? ).
> 
> Assuming one leaves Los Angeles at 5:52pm, scheduled arrival is 8:37pm (AA). Say it's a Friday flight. If you get tested on Wednesday at 9:00 a.m. PST, that's 6:00a.m. HST. 72 hrs is Saturday morning. So, you'd have all day Thursday and all day Friday to get results back and you'd arrive before 72 hours.
> 
> Say instead you leave in the morning on Saturday, 8:00 am. You arrive at 11:45am HST Saturday. If you get tested at 3:30pm Wednesday that's 12:30pm HST. 72 hrs is 12:30pm HST on Saturday. So you'd have to rush over before the 72 hrs runs out. You'd be screwed if there's a 1 hr flight delay.
> 
> 
> View attachment 26635


OK, so if I understand it correctly getting tested in the evening 3 days before your flight gives you some extra few hours time to get to Hawaii before the 72 hours are up.  So for instance if you get tested at 7PM on Monday you have until Thursday 7PM HST for your flight to get there.  The Hawaiian Airlines daily direct flight from JFK leaves at 10:00 AM and gets there usually at 4:00 during the winter months so that would work.  If you went earlier in the day on Monday to get the test it could be a problem if the flight was late.  If the results were not back yet you would need to quarantine until they were.


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## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> OK, so if I understand it correctly getting tested in the evening 3 days before your flight gives you some extra few hours time to get to Hawaii before the 72 hours are up.  So for instance if you get tested at 7PM on Monday you have until Thursday 7PM HST for your flight to get there.  The Hawaiian Airlines daily direct flight from JFK leaves at 10:00 AM and gets there usually at 4:00 during the winter months so that would work.  If you went earlier in the day on Monday to get the test it could be a problem if the flight was late.  If the results were not back yet you would need to quarantine until they were.


Not as serious a problem, but keep in mind that the time of day you get tested may impact when you get results because the labs only pick up the specimens a couple times a day from an office or urgent care. Not sure about large public testing facilities. But if you go to an urgent care, if you have a 7pm test your sample probably isn't going to the lab until mid-morning the next day. That does increase the chances you won't have a test result before departure or arrival. (Departure is important because if it's positive, you still have the chance to not go, Arrival is important because that's when they evaluate the test results for quarantine purposes).

If results come in 24 hours, as they often do now, not a problem. But, another caution -- I was last tested on a Thursday afternoon. They said they hoped to have results Friday, but if not, it would be Monday because they don't get results on the weekend. Sure enough, it was Monday before I got my results. So, book flights for Thur/Fri and get tested Tuesday/Wednesday.


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## 1Kflyerguy

I guess i am happy to live on the west coast, so my travel time to Hawaii is about as short as it gets... 

Will be glad when they finally release the final details to the program so I can see exactly how this will work out. 

The current rules on the Big Island of no quarantining in a timeshare will be problematic if they stay in effect.  But I am assuming that would change, but you never know.


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## DeniseM

1Kflyerguy said:


> Will be glad when they finally release the final details to the program so I can see exactly how this will work out.



See post #49.  It could change, but that seems to be the plan.  
Also - I don't know if anyone has posted this yet: https://hidot.hawaii.gov/coronavirus/


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## controller1

It's worse when you're coming from a location which requires multiple flights or an overnight connection. Our February 2021 reservation has us boarding our first flight 25 hours prior to landing in OGG. That really could place us in a bind if we don't have results prior to boarding our first flight. Also I wonder if there is any leeway if a flight that is scheduled to land in Hawaii prior to the expiration of the 72-hour deadline is delayed and therefore lands more than 72 hours after one's test.


----------



## csodjd

controller1 said:


> It's worse when you're coming from a location which requires multiple flights or an overnight connection. Our February 2021 reservation has us boarding our first flight 25 hours prior to landing in OGG. That really could place us in a bind if we don't have results prior to boarding our first flight. Also I wonder if there is any leeway if a flight that is scheduled to land in Hawaii prior to the expiration of the 72-hour deadline is delayed and therefore lands more than 72 hours after one's test.


I would not cut it that close. I'd be sure to allow for at least 4 or so hours of delay. I also think this is a good two-test situation. Get one in the area of 60-68 hrs before expected arrival, and another the day before departure. If that latter one becomes relevant it may save you.


----------



## Foggy1

csodjd said:


> I would not cut it that close. I'd be sure to allow for at least 4 or so hours of delay.


Last trip to Maui from the East Coast, our arrival was 22 Hrs later than planned due to weather/missed connection/resultant over night stay in SF.  Total travel time from home was 42 hours.  This is an argument for "Departure" time.


----------



## blondietink

I cancelled our end of October Hawaii trip a month ago.  They are so inconsistent with their plans, and who can get a test back in less than 72 hours anyway, unless it is one of the rapid 30 minute test.


----------



## csodjd

Seems the Labor Day weekend bump has arrived. 160 new cases reported today, up from just over 100 yesterday and 60 the day before. Tomorrow and Saturday will be critical (I think) to that Oct. 15 date sticking. If it shoots to 250 or something, all bets are off. 

7-Day average actually dropped because apparently there were a lot of new cases 8 days ago. Infection rate bumped just slightly back to 2.2%, still good.


----------



## dioxide45

blondietink said:


> I cancelled our end of October Hawaii trip a month ago.  They are so inconsistent with their plans, and who can get a test back in less than 72 hours anyway, unless it is one of the rapid 30 minute test.


Will they even accept the rapid test? Aruba wouldn't, which makes the 72 hour requirement not always easy to hit. Someone else we know were trying to get to Hawaii and were having problems getting the right kind of test. I don't know what they ended up doing, but they made it so whatever they did worked.


----------



## csodjd

Foggy1 said:


> Last trip to Maui from the East Coast, our arrival was 22 Hrs later than planned due to weather/missed connection/resultant over night stay in SF.  Total travel time from home was 42 hours.  This is an argument for "Departure" time.


Under these circumstances I'm not sure I'd risk flying straight through from the East Coast. I'd stop for 2-3 days or so in SF or LA or Seattle and get a test done there. Add a bit to the vacation.


----------



## DeniseM

> Will they even accept the rapid test?


This is the required test:


> The *pre-travel testing* program for COVID-19 will start Oct. 15, 2020. Pre-travel testing enables travelers to avoid a mandatory 14-day quarantine if they are tested no earlier than 72 hours before their flight arrives with an *FDA-approved nucleic acid amplification test (NAAT), performed using a nasal swab, and can show proof of negative test results from a CLIA certified laboratory. *Travelers also will have their temperatures checked upon arrival and must fill out the Safe Travels travel and health form. Upon arrival in Hawaii, passengers unable to provide proof of an approved negative test will be required to go into quarantine for 14 days or until they can provide proof of negative test results. For more information and an FAQ please visit https://hawaiicovid19.com/travel/#travel-FAQs


----------



## controller1

DeniseM said:


> This is the required test:



An NAAT test can be a rapid test with results in 5-15 minutes.


----------



## DeniseM

Cool!


----------



## dioxide45

Has Hawaii increased hospital capacity in the 6 months since this all began?


----------



## DeniseM

Hawaii pretty much maxed out all of their expansion options at the end of August, and at that time they asked the Feds for additional staffing, because they couldn't hire enough staff for more beds.  I haven't been able to determine if they were sent federal help or not:








						Hawaii Asks Feds To Send More Nurses To Help With The Pandemic
					

Local hospitals still have enough space to expand and respond to an increase in coronavirus patients but need more specialized nursing staff.




					www.civilbeat.org
				





> Hawaii is asking for 152 specialized nursing staff including medical-surgical telemetry nurses as well as respiratory therapists to care for the critically ill, HAH President and CEO Hilton Raethel said. Hawaii has already exhausted its other options which include activating approximately 80 Hawaii Army National Guard doctors and other personnel, hiring other medical workers from national registries such as travel nurses, and transferring patients to other hospitals or other settings, he said. Those actions are required to meet the criteria that justify a federal request.


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> Has Hawaii increased hospital capacity in the 6 months since this all began?



Bingo! My question exactly. I’ve read nothing that indicates that has happened in Hawaii to any degree (or anywhere else for that matter). If I were a governmental leader at any level that would be my Priority #1. A rapid program to increase quality, long term hospital capacity (not just temporary field hospitals) so we don’t have to worry about maxing our capacity. This virus isn’t going away, probably ever. We need to quit acting like it will just go away. It won’t, even with a vaccine.


----------



## Garden115

Hawaii has announced it will open up on October 15.
Travel: Visitors are allowed if they are tested no earlier than 72 hours before their flight arrives with an FDA-approved nucleic acid amplification test (NAAT), performed using a nasal swab, and can show proof of negative test results from a CLIA certified laboratory.


----------



## csodjd

controller1 said:


> An NAAT test can be a rapid test with results in 5-15 minutes.


Those are not done at a CLIA approved lab though. PCR tests are done at the labs.


----------



## cman

csodjd said:


> I was last tested on a Thursday afternoon. They said they hoped to have results Friday, but if not, it would be Monday because they don't get results on the weekend. Sure enough, it was Monday before I got my results.



My son's results have the date that he was tested, but not the time. They list his result as negative, two days after he took the test, with a time of 1:08 AM. Did your results include the time that you actually took the test?


----------



## controller1

cman said:


> My son's results have the date that he was tested, but not the time. They list his result as negative, two days after he took the test, with a time of 1:08 AM. Did your results include the time that you actually took the test?



I just looked at my test result from August. It lists only the dates the sample was collected, the lab received the sample and the date reported. No times are listed.


----------



## csodjd

cman said:


> My son's results have the date that he was tested, but not the time. They list his result as negative, two days after he took the test, with a time of 1:08 AM. Did your results include the time that you actually took the test?


My test result, from Primex laboratories, shows the date collected, date received, and date reported. It does not show any times. Date collected was 8/21. Date reported was 8/24. If I went to Hawaii on 8/24 there'd be no way of knowing if my negative was within 72 hours of arrival or not. We'd know it was close, that's about all. 

I have a feeling, however, that when they get to the details, it won't be 72 hours. It'll be 3 days. If you arrive on 8/24 you need to have been tested no earlier than 8/21. To do otherwise would be getting into issues of minutes or seconds even. Imagine you're standing in line, next up, and the person in front of you is struggling with their English and your 72 hours runs while standing there. I don't imagine that's a problem they want to deal with. 

I think you'll have to arrive not later than the 3rd day after the sample was collected without regard to whether the sample was collected at 10:00am or 2:00pm.


----------



## cman

csodjd said:


> I have a feeling, however, that when they get to the details, it won't be 72 hours. It'll be 3 days.


I agree. I also see that they've designated CVS and Kaiser Permanente as "trusted testing partners".

_"Currently approved trusted testing partners are: CVS and Kaiser Permanente. Trusted testing partners are entities that understand exactly what the State requires in terms of this program. Additionally, the state will accept test results from other sources so long as they meet the testing parameters set forth by the DOH, which are an FDA-approved NAAT test that is processed by a CLIA certified lab. "_

I'm not sure what that means, just wondering if we get tested at CVS, would our results include the time the test was taken. Here's the link for the info above;



			https://hawaiicovid19.com/travel/#travel-FAQs


----------



## csodjd

Have to wonder why the require a test of babies. Not that I have one, or would travel to Hawaii with one now if I did, but does a 3 month old really need a negative covid test or else be subject to quarantine? (Oh, and CVS says the test only age 12 and over.)


----------



## controller1

csodjd said:


> (Oh, and CVS says the test only age 12 and over.)



I also noticed that when I went to the CVS website. It is listed several times.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> Have to wonder why the require a test of babies. Not that I have one, or would travel to Hawaii with one now if I did, but does a 3 month old really need a negative covid test or else be subject to quarantine? (Oh, and CVS says the test only age 12 and over.)



I agree with the rediculousness of testing babies.  If the parents test negative they don't need to quarantine but the baby doesn't get tested so the baby must quarantine.   Will they arrest the baby if the baby doesn't quarantine?


----------



## controller1

Nowhere in Hawaiʻi is the loss of tourism felt more by businesses than on Maui, according to a joint survey in July by the University of Hawaiʻi Economic Research Organization and the Chamber of Commerce of Hawaiʻi. Of the respondents, 62 percent said their business was down 90 to 100 percent (essentially no revenue coming in).
. . . 
The real impact of the business closures in Hawaiʻi likely has not caught up to the data so far. There have been 2,247 business dissolutions, terminations, cancellations and withdrawals from March to August 2020, according to the state Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs. That is only 13 more than during the same timeframe in 2019.

But businesses file with DCCA annually, and do not have to file paperwork to dissolve immediately, said Jayson Horiuchi, communications officer with the department. So there is a lag time between when a business closes and when that closure is documented with the state.









						Maui Businesses Continue to Close and Struggle as Pandemic Drags On | Maui Now
					

More than 15 Maui businesses, including eight restaurants, have closed their doors for good due to the lack of tourism and other economic woes caused by the coronavirus. Many more Maui businesses are teetering on the brink, as government assistance programs for small businesses dry up and the...




					mauinow.com


----------



## Fredflintstone

controller1 said:


> Nowhere in Hawaiʻi is the loss of tourism felt more by businesses than on Maui, according to a joint survey in July by the University of Hawaiʻi Economic Research Organization and the Chamber of Commerce of Hawaiʻi. Of the respondents, 62 percent said their business was down 90 to 100 percent (essentially no revenue coming in).
> . . .
> The real impact of the business closures in Hawaiʻi likely has not caught up to the data so far. There have been 2,247 business dissolutions, terminations, cancellations and withdrawals from March to August 2020, according to the state Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs. That is only 13 more than during the same timeframe in 2019.
> 
> But businesses file with DCCA annually, and do not have to file paperwork to dissolve immediately, said Jayson Horiuchi, communications officer with the department. So there is a lag time between when a business closes and when that closure is documented with the state.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maui Businesses Continue to Close and Struggle as Pandemic Drags On | Maui Now
> 
> 
> More than 15 Maui businesses, including eight restaurants, have closed their doors for good due to the lack of tourism and other economic woes caused by the coronavirus. Many more Maui businesses are teetering on the brink, as government assistance programs for small businesses dry up and the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mauinow.com






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## rickandcindy23

We have a friend that manages one of the big box stores on Maui and business is booming for home improvements.


----------



## Fredflintstone

rickandcindy23 said:


> We have a friend that manages one of the big box stores on Maui and business is booming for home improvements.



I have read from many sources that Big Box (Walmart, Amazon, Costco, Home Depot, etc.) are doing gangbusters but the Mom and Pops are dying. I have a few friends in Hawaii and all of them own small business. Every one of them are suffering badly and on the verge of losing their small businesses. Granted, they are in the tourist industry. I hope tourism opens and stays open soon so they have a chance of surviving. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS

controller1 said:


> I also noticed that when I went to the CVS website. It is listed several times.


Hawaii only had 6 months to prepare the details so what would you expect?


----------



## ljmiii

dioxide45 said:


> Has Hawaii increased hospital capacity in the 6 months since this all began?


Queen's Medical Center added (is adding?) a 24 bed negative pressure ICU infectious disease ward. It was theoretically going to be "ready by September" but I don't know if it has opened yet.








						Queen’s preps COVID-19 unit for ‘second wave’ of patients
					

Hawaii’s oldest hospital will convert a space dedicated to COVID-19 patients that would be ready by September.




					www.staradvertiser.com


----------



## ljmiii

Tamaradarann said:


> If the parents test negative they don't need to quarantine but the baby doesn't get tested so the baby must quarantine.   Will they arrest the baby if the baby doesn't quarantine?


No...but the whole family would have to quarantine (or return to the mainland). I don't see Hawaiians separating children from their parents.


----------



## DeniseM

ljmiii said:


> Queen's Medical Center added (is adding?) a 24 bed negative pressure ICU infectious disease ward. It was theoretically going to be "ready by September" but I don't know if it has opened yet.



Wow! - Half a million dollars per ICU bed!


----------



## slip

controller1 said:


> Nowhere in Hawaiʻi is the loss of tourism felt more by businesses than on Maui, according to a joint survey in July by the University of Hawaiʻi Economic Research Organization and the Chamber of Commerce of Hawaiʻi. Of the respondents, 62 percent said their business was down 90 to 100 percent (essentially no revenue coming in).
> . . .
> The real impact of the business closures in Hawaiʻi likely has not caught up to the data so far. There have been 2,247 business dissolutions, terminations, cancellations and withdrawals from March to August 2020, according to the state Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs. That is only 13 more than during the same timeframe in 2019.
> 
> But businesses file with DCCA annually, and do not have to file paperwork to dissolve immediately, said Jayson Horiuchi, communications officer with the department. So there is a lag time between when a business closes and when that closure is documented with the state.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maui Businesses Continue to Close and Struggle as Pandemic Drags On | Maui Now
> 
> 
> More than 15 Maui businesses, including eight restaurants, have closed their doors for good due to the lack of tourism and other economic woes caused by the coronavirus. Many more Maui businesses are teetering on the brink, as government assistance programs for small businesses dry up and the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mauinow.com



Maui being the most affected is correct for the company I work for and we are on all the islands.


----------



## ljmiii

DeniseM said:


> Wow! - Half a million dollars per ICU bed!


Yup...Hospitals ain't cheap! Around here everything gets named after a benefactor - the Bloomberg/Helmsley/Cohen wing/tower/ward phenomenon.


----------



## Blues

DeniseM said:


> Wow! - Half a million dollars per ICU bed!



The hospital bed itself -- not the monitoring equipment, not the building space or air handling, just the bed -- can easily be a 6 figure amount.


----------



## critterchick

I was able to switch our restricted Staroptions from an October 1 to November 29 to the Westin Princeville (I already had it booked but didn’t want another batch of restricted SOs so cancelled that one). I wonder what their max capacity will be by then.

I’ll cancel again and wave the white flag on 2020 if the quarantine extends to all again regardless of test results. I live near a bluff overlooking the other side of the Pacific, so no need to imprison myself in my unit or the resort for the same view (or worse, the kiddie pool) without the ability even to get groceries.


----------



## csodjd

Ahhh.... 114 new cases today, breaking that bump/reverse trend.


Blues said:


> The hospital bed itself -- not the monitoring equipment, not the building space or air handling, just the bed -- can easily be a 6 figure amount.


It's the wheels. They're all on wheels. Very expensive. 

There is such a degree of absurdity in medical equipment pricing. If I purchase tweezers for removing eyelashes (epilation) from a medical supply they are about $45. From CVS I can get the same tweezers that work great for about $5.


----------



## csodjd

So the data is in now. 7-Day moving average new cases is down to 109.6. Percent positive steady at 2.2%. Hawaii is still leading the Country with an Rt of 0.82. Appears to not be much of a Labor Day bump. That bodes well for Oct. 15 sticking.


----------



## Tamaradarann

ljmiii said:


> No...but the whole family would have to quarantine (or return to the mainland). I don't see Hawaiians separating children from their parents.



Are you kidding did you get that officially?  Of course they wouldn't arrest the baby!  They can't get the baby tested but the parents have tested negative.  So you you are saying that they would need to quarantine for 14 days or return to the mainland?  For months, and I am sure that the practice will continue in the future, people have been returning to Hawaii from the Continental United States to a dwelling with other people.  The traveller needs to quarantine but the rest of the household doesn't.  So the parents that tested negative must quaratine because their baby came from the Continental United States and can't be tested?


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> Are you kidding did you get that officially?  Of course they wouldn't arrest the baby!  They can't get the baby tested but the parents have tested negative.  So you you are saying that they would need to quarantine for 14 days or return to the mainland?  For months, and I am sure that the practice will continue in the future, people have been returning to Hawaii from the Continental United States to a dwelling with other people.  The traveller needs to quarantine but the rest of the household doesn't.  So the parents that tested negative must quaratine because their baby came from the Continental United States and can't be tested?


----------



## controller1

csodjd said:


> . . .
> 
> I have a feeling, however, that when they get to the details, it won't be 72 hours. It'll be 3 days. If you arrive on 8/24 you need to have been tested no earlier than 8/21. To do otherwise would be getting into issues of minutes or seconds even. Imagine you're standing in line, next up, and the person in front of you is struggling with their English and your 72 hours runs while standing there. I don't imagine that's a problem they want to deal with.
> 
> I think you'll have to arrive not later than the 3rd day after the sample was collected without regard to whether the sample was collected at 10:00am or 2:00pm.



The State Department of Health has changed their FAQ to indicate "three days" instead of "72 hours".



			https://hawaiicovid19.com/travel/#travel-FAQs


----------



## b2bailey

controller1 said:


> There had been discussion about 72 hours and would it be exactly 72 hours. The Hawaii State Department of Health has changed the language to "three days" as in "Evidence of a negative COVID-19 test result must be provided upon arrival to the Hawaiian Islands. For this option, the State of Hawai‘i is requiring all travelers to Hawai‘i to take an FDA-authorized NAAT test from a CLIA certified laboratory no earlier than three days before your flight arrival date."
> 
> So it would appear as long as one's flight is not delayed to the fourth day one should not be concerned if arrival in Hawaii is 80 hours after taking the test.
> 
> 
> 
> https://hawaiicovid19.com/travel/#travel-FAQs


My personal situation regarding upcoming trip to Hawaii (on Oct 5) reminds me of the "farmer, fox, chicken, grain" riddle. If I depart SFO on 10/04, should I get a test then? I would still be planning to quarantine 10/04 to 10/15. But, 'what if' I was struck by a false positive reading? Perhaps it's better for me to forego the test and quarantine until 10/18 as already planned?


----------



## controller1

b2bailey said:


> My personal situation regarding upcoming trip to Hawaii (on Oct 5) reminds me of the "farmer, fox, chicken, grain" riddle. If I depart SFO on 10/04, should I get a test then? I would still be planning to quarantine 10/04 to 10/15. But, 'what if' I was struck by a false positive reading? Perhaps it's better for me to forego the test and quarantine until 10/18 as already planned?



The way the previous quarantines that were to expire (but didn't) worked was you would have no choice but to quarantine for the full 14 days if you arrived prior to the expiration of the quarantine order. Therefore if you arrived October 14 you would be required to quarantine until October 28 regardless if you had proof of a negative test.


----------



## b2bailey

controller1 said:


> The way the previous quarantines that were to expire (but didn't) worked was you would have no choice but to quarantine for the full 14 days if you arrived prior to the expiration of the quarantine order. Therefore if you arrived October 14 you would be required to quarantine until October 28 regardless if you had proof of a negative test.


Thank you for this information.


----------



## csodjd

controller1 said:


> The State Department of Health has changed their FAQ to indicate "three days" instead of "72 hours".
> 
> 
> 
> https://hawaiicovid19.com/travel/#travel-FAQs
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 26721


This definitely changes the calculus quite a bit. Assume you are going to Hawaii on Thursday. You can be tested early Monday, and schedule your flight for the afternoon Thursday. That gives you 24 hours, 48 hours, even 72 hours to get test results BEFORE you even head to the airport. In most cases that ought to be enough. It also means you can schedule another test for, say, Tuesday morning and probably have that result back too, virtually eliminating the false positive risks.


----------



## slip

Here’s a story about a couple high end places on Kauai planning on trying the bubble concept.

https://www.civilbeat.org/2020/09/2...dmMorTlS7IPAeorRMdFu5QaRJAFYH9SWZXoxG69sg63b4


----------



## csodjd

slip said:


> Here’s a story about a couple high end places on Kauai planning on trying the bubble concept.
> 
> https://www.civilbeat.org/2020/09/2...dmMorTlS7IPAeorRMdFu5QaRJAFYH9SWZXoxG69sg63b4


Seems a bit late to the dance with quarantine free travel available in less than 30 days with a negative test.


----------



## DeniseM

*SEVENTY-ONE* Tuggers have responded to the poll - awesome! 

(And even better no one has acted like a jackass in this new thread!!!)


----------



## csodjd

Reporting 77 new cases. Seems the Labor Day bump was 160. It rose to that and now steadily declining. Lt. Gov. says he‘s looking for not over 150/day on average, and Hawaii is now well below that for the last 14 days. The remaining test then is the reopening, first within the Islands, then with travelers. It does show, however, that the ability to control the virus is entirely in the hands of the residents (and visitors eventually).


----------



## luv_maui

I spent time calling both Kaiser and CVS, in regards to COVID-19 testing, since we were hoping to obtain the test for a trip in Nov/Dec 2020.

1) Kaiser states you must be a member, and members need to get approval first,
2) CVS stated they do not have details About this partnership at this time but will come October 15th

so, at this time we have no Information on obtaining an acceptable Covid-19 test.  I have reached out to my primary care physician to see if they can assist, but not optimistic on getting this test nor any details.  We are not members of Kaiser, so my only way at this time is thru CVS, once available, however, the website indicates no location within at least 100 miles, here in Oregon.

if My information from CVS and Kaiser is correct, there may not be many people from state of Oregon going to Hawaii.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

luv_maui said:


> I spent time calling both Kaiser and CVS, in regards to COVID-19 testing, since we were hoping to obtain the test for a trip in Nov/Dec 2020.
> 
> 1) Kaiser states you must be a member, and members need to get approval first,
> 2) CVS stated they do not have details About this partnership at this time but will come October 15th
> 
> so, at this time we have no Information on obtaining an acceptable Covid-19 test.  I have reached out to my primary care physician to see if they can assist, but not optimistic on getting this test nor any details.  We are not members of Kaiser, so my only way at this time is thru CVS, once available, however, the website indicates no location within at least 100 miles, here in Oregon.
> 
> if My information from CVS and Kaiser is correct, there may not be many people from state of Oregon going to Hawaii.





Suggestion:  Contact the Department of Health for the State of Oregon, explain you situation, and they may be able to guide you.

Additionally, the State's web site for the Health Department may have this information posted......




.


----------



## klpca

Also the Hawaii state information says that as long as the labs meet certain qualifications you can use another location other than CVS or Kaiser. https://www.gohawaii.com/safe-travels

*What types of COVID-19 tests are accepted and where can I get a test?* Results from any FDA-authorized NAAT test, processed by a CLIA certified lab taken within 72 hours of arrival. Current approved trusted testing partners are: CVS and Kaiser Permanente. 
I realize that that will be unnerving to use someone other than CVS or Kaiser but it is another alternative. Quest Diagnostics also seems to meet the qualifications. I'm personally hoping that CVS gets their act together soon, but I am going to set up an appointment at Quest as a back up.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

It would have been great if all the information was available when they announced the new date, but the details have always seem like they are still in process...

If your not traveling until Nov, there should be plenty of time for it all to get settled and published.  Or at least i hope so,,,

Some of the Hawaii State officials mentioned the possibility of getting Kaiser to test non-members but that was supposed to negotiated at a later time.. Personably I think CVS will be your best bet assuming you live near a CVS that offers testing.


----------



## bogey21

My Son and his Father-in-Law got tested at an Urgent Care Center.  You might start checking with those in your neighborhood...

George


----------



## PearlCity

bogey21 said:


> My Son and his Father-in-Law got tested at an Urgent Care Center. You might start checking with those in your neighborhood...
> 
> George


I thought the state wanted the tests to be within specified systems so that officials could verify? 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## PearlCity

controller1 said:


> The way the previous quarantines that were to expire (but didn't) worked was you would have no choice but to quarantine for the full 14 days if you arrived prior to the expiration of the quarantine order. Therefore if you arrived October 14 you would be required to quarantine until October 28 regardless if you had proof of a negative test.


Yes this is correct. Waiver for quarantine as i understand it applies of you arrive from.Oct 15th not prior. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## jabberwocky

So how would this work for those out-of-country travelers?  No CVS in Canada and trying to guess when you will get your test result back is like playing the lottery (you're told anywhere from 1-8 days now!)


----------



## klpca

PearlCity said:


> I thought the state wanted the tests to be within specified systems so that officials could verify?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


See post #3 above and the link to the safe travels page. I believe that it indicates that as long as the lab meets the stated qualifications their test results will be accepted. Do you read it that way too? 

For Canadians it looks like the FDA authorized facility requirement may make it difficult to comply.


----------



## chellej

jabberwocky said:


> So how would this work for those out-of-country travelers?  No CVS in Canada and trying to guess when you will get your test result back is like playing the lottery (you're told anywhere from 1-8 days now!)



Well since the US has a travel ban with Canada and Hawaii is a us state  would it not follow that Canadians can't go to Hawaii??? or is it just the Border crossingsl that are closed.


----------



## jabberwocky

chellej said:


> Well since the US has a travel ban with Canada and Hawaii is a us state  would it not follow that Canadians can't go to Hawaii??? or is it just the Border crossingsl that are closed.


Only land and maritime borders are affected by the “ban”. Canadians can travel to the US by air.

Canada still has a 14 day quarantine for anyone returning and bans non-Canadians and non-residents from entering Canada by any mode of travel.


----------



## PearlCity

klpca said:


> See post #3 above and the link to the safe travels page. I believe that it indicates that as long as the lab meets the stated qualifications their test results will be accepted. Do you read it that way too?
> 
> For Canadians it looks like the FDA authorized facility requirement may make it difficult to comply.


Its confusing because in that same paragraph it talks abour trusted partners and names CVS and Kaiser as being approved at this time. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## louisianab

klpca said:


> Also the Hawaii state information says that as long as the labs meet certain qualifications you can use another location other than CVS or Kaiser. https://www.gohawaii.com/safe-travels
> 
> *What types of COVID-19 tests are accepted and where can I get a test?* Results from any FDA-authorized NAAT test, processed by a CLIA certified lab taken within 72 hours of arrival. Current approved trusted testing partners are: CVS and Kaiser Permanente.
> I realize that that will be unnerving to use someone other than CVS or Kaiser but it is another alternative. Quest Diagnostics also seems to meet the qualifications. I'm personally hoping that CVS gets their act together soon, but I am going to set up an appointment at Quest as a back up.



Most any legit lab is CLIA certified, its the fed gov't standards and required for reimbursement of Medicare. You could call your local health dept or local lab and they should know the current turn around time for COVID tests and where to get one. My lab non emergent testing is getting done within 48 hours, DM me if you're in Michigan and I can give you some leads.


----------



## PearlCity

So im a Hawaii resident. My advice is if you can put your vacation off until at least mid Dec. Do so. The state of Hawaii is reactive not proactive-very likely the first group of visitors in Oct/Nov will have issues.

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## csodjd

56 new cases today, continuing the downward slide after the post Labor Day peak of 160. 7-day average now below 100. But for some crazy unexpected leap the other direction, the Oct 15 date should hold. Even as they loosen some rules, there probably won't be enough time for it to go south before Oct. 15.


----------



## 10spro

I’m hoping to keep my Maui reservation for Thanksgiving. I am not a member of Kaiser, so I went through the CVS website to see what’s involved. It said I was not priority and could not make as appointment. Hoping there are more options coming in the next weeks.


----------



## controller1

IMO you are jumping the gun expecting a government entity working with private enterprise to have everything worked out 25 days before the October 15th effective date. Give it a couple of weeks and hopefully Hawaii will have their act together.


----------



## luv_maui

controller1 said:


> The State Department of Health has changed their FAQ to indicate "three days" instead of "72 hours".
> 
> 
> 
> https://hawaiicovid19.com/travel/#travel-FAQs
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 26721


So if one were planning arriving on a Friday, does that mean one needs to be tested on Tuesday or Wednesday?  I’m guessing Tuesday, but I could see potentially Wednesday since Wednesday is day 1, Thursday is day 2 and Friday is day 3.  Not my interpretation, but simply pointing out wanting Exact clarification.  I tried calling the number on the contacts information from the Hawaii website but got some response saying to call back later!


----------



## HGVC Lover

PearlCity said:


> So im a Hawaii resident. My advice is if you can put your vacation off until at least mid Dec. Do so. The state of Hawaii is reactive not proactive-very likely the first group of visitors in Oct/Nov will have issues.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk



I agree having lived in Hawaii for many years too.....we have moved our annual vacation several times already this Fall and I am not optimistic about October15th either since HI keeps putting out new start dates for visitors with a negative Covid test. 

It is hard to see how CVS nationally is going to really care about providing Covid tests to HI visitors when I am sure they are going to have their hands full this Fall with the flu and nationally increasing Covid cases.  With nearly 300,000 deaths predicted by the first of December it does not seem realistic.

Also, I hope people are aware, that at this time, if you get the tests 72 hours prior to arrival but no results that you will have to quarantine until you can show negative test results.  On the Big Island you are not allowed to quarantine in timeshares or VRBO's so you would have to stay in a hotel until you could provide results.  Also, you will get no rental car until you can provide a negative tests. 

There definitely are a lot of moving parts to this new opening date and it sounds like everything has to happen absolutely perfectly or you could find yourself in a costly situation after you land.


----------



## csodjd

luv_maui said:


> So if one were planning arriving on a Friday, does that mean one needs to be tested on Tuesday or Wednesday?  I’m guessing Tuesday, but I could see potentially Wednesday since Wednesday is day 1, Thursday is day 2 and Friday is day 3.  Not my interpretation, but simply pointing out wanting Exact clarification.  I tried calling the number on the contacts information from the Hawaii website but got some response saying to call back later!


I believe it would be Tuesday. If you think in terms of 72 hours, from Friday back to Thursday is 24, to Wednesday is 48, to Tuesday is 72. You count the intervals, not the day.


----------



## controller1

luv_maui said:


> So if one were planning arriving on a Friday, does that mean one needs to be tested on Tuesday or Wednesday?  I’m guessing Tuesday, but I could see potentially Wednesday since Wednesday is day 1, Thursday is day 2 and Friday is day 3.  Not my interpretation, but simply pointing out wanting Exact clarification.  I tried calling the number on the contacts information from the Hawaii website but got some response saying to call back later!





csodjd said:


> I believe it would be Tuesday. If you think in terms of 72 hours, from Friday back to Thursday is 24, to Wednesday is 48, to Tuesday is 72. You count the intervals, not the day.



I agree with @csodjd one would not count the testing day.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

There was an article in yesterday's Star-Advertiser,  seems people and  businesses are getting frustrated with the lack of details on the reopening plan:









						Details remain vague on Hawaii’s October pre-arrival testing program
					

Gov. David Ige’s announcement last week that Hawaii will launch a pre-arrival testing program Oct. 15 kicked off the start of a fall tourism reopening for Hawaii.




					www.staradvertiser.com
				




I think the corona virus coverage is still open to all, no paywall


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

HGVC Lover said:


> I agree having lived in Hawaii for many years too.....we have moved our annual vacation several times already this Fall and I am not optimistic about October15th either since HI keeps putting out new start dates for visitors with a negative Covid test.
> 
> It is hard to see how CVS nationally is going to really care about providing Covid tests to HI visitors when I am sure they are going to have their hands full this Fall with the flu and nationally increasing Covid cases.  With nearly 300,000 deaths predicted by the first of December it does not seem realistic.
> 
> Also, I hope people are aware, that at this time, if you get the tests 72 hours prior to arrival but no results that you will have to quarantine until you can show negative test results.  On the Big Island you are not allowed to quarantine in timeshares or VRBO's so you would have to stay in a hotel until you could provide results.  Also, you will get no rental car until you can provide a negative tests.
> 
> There definitely are a lot of moving parts to this new opening date and it sounds like everything has to happen absolutely perfectly or you could find yourself in a costly situation after you land.




We are already booked for the Big Island next May.  I considered booking an earlier trip to different island, and actually found some availability over the Christmas break..  But then after thinking about it more i decided to wait until Hawaii is actually open and i see how its working before i try and book a second trip.  Juts too many moving parts for my liking.  Our May trip was using points and airline credits from canceled 2020 trips, so nothing new out of pocket.  Booking a second trip will require some new spending, and would prefer to avoid ending up with even more credits due to canceled trips if I can avoid it.


----------



## PearlCity

Article this morning about CVS not being ready yet. 









						With launch date nearing, key details of pre-travel testing program still unclear
					

Lt. Gov. Josh Green says the timing of the test is critical.




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com
				




Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## controller1

PearlCity said:


> Article this morning about CVS not being ready yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With launch date nearing, key details of pre-travel testing program still unclear
> 
> 
> Lt. Gov. Josh Green says the timing of the test is critical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hawaiinewsnow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk



Could Hawaii make it any more confusing?! This is a quote in the article from the Lt. Governor (*emphasis added*): “We are going to check that you got that within a 72-hour window of *departure*,” said Green. “Because you can’t get the test three weeks out and it won’t be worth anything.”


----------



## csodjd

1Kflyerguy said:


> There was an article in yesterday's Star-Advertiser,  seems people and  businesses are getting frustrated with the lack of details on the reopening plan:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Details remain vague on Hawaii’s October pre-arrival testing program
> 
> 
> Gov. David Ige’s announcement last week that Hawaii will launch a pre-arrival testing program Oct. 15 kicked off the start of a fall tourism reopening for Hawaii.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.staradvertiser.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the corona virus coverage is still open to all, no paywall


I'm imagining the "kick off" of the "start of fall tourism" being 11 people getting off an airplane on Oct. 16, waiting in line for 45 minutes while $12/hr workers try and find their online records and verify their test results.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

dougp26364 said:


> Until this is better controlled, I’ll vacation somewhere else, if at all. Hawaii is to far away and to expensive to risk it IMHO.




Yes, and I am not sure how well their medical system will be able to handle a surge in cases (if indeed a surge comes about)........



.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

csodjd said:


> 'm imagining the "kick off" of the "start of fall tourism" being 11 people getting off an airplane on Oct. 16, waiting in line for 45 minutes while $12/hr workers try and find their online records and verify their test results.



I agree that is a real possibility.   I think other big risk righ now is that big companies like Hawaiian Airlines, Pleasant Holidays, etc move forward with advertising and booking vacations and then the state discovers all details they missed to make this workable, leaving unhappy tourists.


----------



## DeniseM

TheTimeTraveler said:


> Yes, and I am not sure how well their medical system will be able to handle a surge in cases (if indeed a surge comes about).......



They will utilize all the empty cruise ships as plague ships taking tourists back to the mainland.


----------



## csodjd

63 new cases today. About the same as yesterday. Appears to be stabilizing.


----------



## HGVC Lover

controller1 said:


> Could Hawaii make it any more confusing?! This is a quote in the article from the Lt. Governor (*emphasis added*): “We are going to check that you got that within a 72-hour window of *departure*,” said Green. “Because you can’t get the test three weeks out and it won’t be worth anything.”



The other thing that is confusing to me is the test 72 hours prior to departure/arrival in the time zone I live in or HST?  If it is HST then that actually allows a window of only 69 hours for west coast people?  And people on the east coast would have only a 66 hour window if it is based on HST?


----------



## JanT

Well first they said within 72 hours and then changed the website to say 3 days and now the LG is saying 72 hours again.  WTH?  They need to make up their minds!!!  



HGVC Lover said:


> The other thing that is confusing to me is the test 72 hours prior to departure/arrival in the time zone I live in or HST?  If it is HST then that actually allows a window of only 69 hours for west coast people?  And people on the east coast would have only a 66 hour window if it is based on HST?


----------



## scottann92

This is the most depressing thread I have read in a long time.  Where's the positivity, I'm a nurses and have seen it here.  It is getting better!!!


DeniseM said:


> They will utilize all the empty cruise ships as plague ships taking tourists back to the mainland.


----------



## PearlCity

This is am article regarding HonoluluMayors reopening plan. Applies to Oahu only www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2020/09/22/live-mayor-announce-plans-easing-covid-restrictions-new-cases-decline/

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## DeniseM

scottann92 said:


> This is the most depressing thread I have read in a long time.  Where's the positivity, I'm a nurses and have seen it here.  It is getting better!!!



Hawaii is in a unique and precarious position: They have to have a solid entry process in place, to avoid having a big C19 breakout among visitors, which will overwhelm their hospitals.  Rose colored glasses won't get that done.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

The Governor says children that don't have a negative covide teste must quarantine.    









						Ige: No testing for keiki; some families eager for Hawaii vacation might be out of luck - West Hawaii Today
					

The state plans to allow incoming travelers from out of state who have tested negative for the coronavirus to avoid quarantine as of Oct. 15 — but visitors seeking a family vacation might have to look elsewhere.




					www.westhawaiitoday.com
				




This does not affect me, as we don't travel with any young children but I can see that this will be a disappointment to many.    

I found it interesting that Gov mentioned that the two partners, CVS and Kaiser won't test kids, so its up to the parents to find someone who is willing to test their kids..  I would guess that there must be a reason CVS and Kaiser won't test kids, not just that they are trying to be difficult..


----------



## Tamaradarann

1Kflyerguy said:


> The Governor says children that don't have a negative covide teste must quarantine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ige: No testing for keiki; some families eager for Hawaii vacation might be out of luck - West Hawaii Today
> 
> 
> The state plans to allow incoming travelers from out of state who have tested negative for the coronavirus to avoid quarantine as of Oct. 15 — but visitors seeking a family vacation might have to look elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.westhawaiitoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This does not affect me, as we don't travel with any young children but I can see that this will be a disappointment to many.
> 
> I found it interesting that Gov mentioned that the two partners, CVS and Kaiser won't test kids, so its up to the parents to find someone who is willing to test their kids..  I would guess that there must be a reason CVS and Kaiser won't test kids, not just that they are trying to be difficult..



I thought it was rediculous that they were making a couple quarantine for 14 days or return to the Continental United States since they had an infant that could NOT be tested.  However, that was an infant who really doesn't go anywhere.  School age children are going to school and playing with their friends which is a totally different story as far as testing.  They need to be tested or quarantined.

However, making families with young children quarantine since they can't get tested is going to really going to reduce the big Holiday Vacation Arrivals that normally come to Hawaii.


----------



## csodjd

1Kflyerguy said:


> The Governor says children that don't have a negative covide teste must quarantine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ige: No testing for keiki; some families eager for Hawaii vacation might be out of luck - West Hawaii Today
> 
> 
> The state plans to allow incoming travelers from out of state who have tested negative for the coronavirus to avoid quarantine as of Oct. 15 — but visitors seeking a family vacation might have to look elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.westhawaiitoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This does not affect me, as we don't travel with any young children but I can see that this will be a disappointment to many.
> 
> I found it interesting that Gov mentioned that the two partners, CVS and Kaiser won't test kids, so its up to the parents to find someone who is willing to test their kids..  I would guess that there must be a reason CVS and Kaiser won't test kids, not just that they are trying to be difficult..


I'm not a pediatrician, but I can imagine that putting a swab deep up the nose of a baby may be different than an adult and/or require different training or skills.


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## csodjd

Ooops. 168 cases reported today, 6.1% of those tested. Not good. Seems a bit odd, but...


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## ljmiii

There are four different things going on because of the history of Hawaii's trying to get tourists to Hawaii. From the DOT website...

"The pre-travel testing program for COVID-19 will start Oct. 15, 2020. Pre-travel testing enables travelers to avoid a mandatory 14-day quarantine if they are tested no earlier than 72 hours before their flight arrives with an FDA-approved nucleic acid amplification test (NAAT), performed using a nasal swab, and can show proof of negative test results from a CLIA certified laboratory." And from the DoH website...

"[T]he state will accept test results from other sources so long as they meet the testing parameters set forth by the DOH, which are an FDA-authorized NAAT test processed by a CLIA certified lab."

So one, Hawaii is saying that you can use the lab of your choice as basically any mainland lab that does 'real' NAAT testing is CLIA certified. So you can get your 11 year old (or 11 month old) tested at your local provider. The trick is to find one that tests young children and gets results back in 24 hours but they exist (at least in NY). In NY these tests are necessary to get your kid back in school if they are sick.

Two, Hawaii naively reached out to partners that they thought could handle COVID testing in volume and with quick turn around time for mainland tourists - Kaiser in CA and CVS nationwide. A complete bust thus far.

Three, Hawaii (and in particular Kauai) has been trying to work with large scale resorts to create 'travel bubbles'. Not for us, but there is likely a market.

Four, Hawaii has been trying to get the US government and the governments of Japan, Australia, New Zealand, to allow tourists from countries that have more or less contained COVID-19 to visit Hawaii. Still a fantasy thus far.


----------



## Tamaradarann

ljmiii said:


> There are four different things going on because of the history of Hawaii's trying to get tourists to Hawaii. From the DOT website...
> 
> "The pre-travel testing program for COVID-19 will start Oct. 15, 2020. Pre-travel testing enables travelers to avoid a mandatory 14-day quarantine if they are tested no earlier than 72 hours before their flight arrives with an FDA-approved nucleic acid amplification test (NAAT), performed using a nasal swab, and can show proof of negative test results from a CLIA certified laboratory." And from the DoH website...
> 
> "[T]he state will accept test results from other sources so long as they meet the testing parameters set forth by the DOH, which are an FDA-authorized NAAT test processed by a CLIA certified lab."
> 
> So one, Hawaii is saying that you can use the lab of your choice as basically any mainland lab that does 'real' NAAT testing is CLIA certified. So you can get your 11 year old (or 11 month old) tested at your local provider. The trick is to find one that tests young children and gets results back in 24 hours but they exist (at least in NY). In NY these tests are necessary to get your kid back in school if they are sick.
> 
> Two, Hawaii naively reached out to partners that they thought could handle COVID testing in volume and with quick turn around time for mainland tourists - Kaiser in CA and CVS nationwide. A complete bust thus far.
> 
> Three, Hawaii (and in particular Kauai) has been trying to work with large scale resorts to create 'travel bubbles'. Not for us, but there is likely a market.
> 
> Four, Hawaii has been trying to get the US government and the governments of Japan, Australia, New Zealand, to allow tourists from countries that have more or less contained COVID-19 to visit Hawaii. Still a fantasy thus far.



I agree with what you said here about all the things that are going on at once to get tourists back.  Has there been any talk about requiring testing of the military, flight crew, and contractor personnel that are traveling to or back to Hawaii?  Furthermore, having them quarantine until the test results come back rather than possible spreading the virus to those they my be living with or contacting upon arrival?   In particular the volume of flight crew personnel will be increasing as the volume of tourists return.


----------



## TheHolleys87

My dad sent a link to a headline from the Wall Street Journal stating that United Airlines will be offering testing to its customers. It’s behind a paywall - can any of you who have access to WSJ summarize the article, please? 








						United to Offer Covid Testing to Some Hawaii-Bound Travelers
					

United Airlines will offer Covid-19 tests for a fee to passengers flying from San Francisco to Hawaii, as airlines look to testing as a way to reopen some destinations that have been largely closed to travel during the pandemic.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## HGVC Lover

TheHolleys87 said:


> My dad sent a link to a headline from the Wall Street Journal stating that United Airlines will be offering testing to its customers. It’s behind a paywall - can any of you who have access to WSJ summarize the article, please?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> United to Offer Covid Testing to Some Hawaii-Bound Travelers
> 
> 
> United Airlines will offer Covid-19 tests for a fee to passengers flying from San Francisco to Hawaii, as airlines look to testing as a way to reopen some destinations that have been largely closed to travel during the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com



More information is coming out about the United program at other news outlets too:









						United Airlines to offer Covid-19 testing for some passengers
					

United will offer Covid-19 testing for Hawaii-bound passengers beginning October 15 out of San Francisco, in a pilot testing program that the airline hopes to extend to other destinations.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## JanT

Ok, but this is not going to line up with the approved testing method Hawaii is saying is required - a NAAT (nasal swab) test that generally takes at least 24-48 hours, and in most cases more, to get the results from.  Is Hawaii going to begin to accept the 15 minute Rapid test instead of the NAAT test?  That would make things a whole lot easier for a lot of people that want to go there.



HGVC Lover said:


> More information is coming out about the United program at other news outlets too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> United Airlines to offer Covid-19 testing for some passengers
> 
> 
> United will offer Covid-19 testing for Hawaii-bound passengers beginning October 15 out of San Francisco, in a pilot testing program that the airline hopes to extend to other destinations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


----------



## DannyTS

HGVC Lover said:


> More information is coming out about the United program at other news outlets too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> United Airlines to offer Covid-19 testing for some passengers
> 
> 
> United will offer Covid-19 testing for Hawaii-bound passengers beginning October 15 out of San Francisco, in a pilot testing program that the airline hopes to extend to other destinations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


according to Bloomberg, the test will be 250 USD pp








						United Air to Offer $250 Coronavirus Tests on Flights to Hawaii
					

United Airlines Holdings Inc. will offer on-the-spot coronavirus testing to customers flying to Hawaii who are willing to pay $250 to avoid a two-week quarantine on arrival.The carrier hopes the testing regimen can be expanded to help pave the way toward reigniting international travel, which...




					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## ljmiii

TheHolleys87 said:


> My dad sent a link to a headline from the Wall Street Journal stating that United Airlines will be offering testing to its customers....


From the WSJ article - "United said it worked with Hawaiian officials to ensure the tests will meet its requirements. The quick airport test will be administered by GoHealth Urgent Care in the San Francisco airport’s international terminal, and passengers who test positive won’t be allowed to enter security or travel, a United spokeswoman said."

No idea how this gets around the NAAT requirement. But getting airlines to test incoming passengers before takeoff was indeed yet another avenue for promoting tourism that Gov. Ige was pursuing a few months ago. I guess "When it rains, it pours"...but in a good way.


----------



## ljmiii

Tamaradarann said:


> Has there been any talk about requiring testing of the military, flight crew, and contractor personnel that are traveling to or back to Hawaii?...


On other forums I have to keep reminding people that mainlanders never stopped going to Hawaii. And that while incoming passenger numbers into HNL have varied day by day they divide into three more or less equal groups - visitors and new residents, returning Hawaiians, and those exempt from quarantine (largely though not exclusively military personnel and airline personnel).

I'm pretty much sure that testing incoming military is a 'never gonna happen' since it would require DoD cooperation. Seems likely airline personnel is in the same camp as it would require agreement from the FAA and unions. There was a huge stink when Hong Kong tried to require testing and potential quarantine of crew.

I never really got a good explanation of other exempt. When the quarantine started I read something (probably in the Star Advertiser) about 'essential personnel needed in Hawaii for short term work' but nothing since.


----------



## csodjd

To be clear, NAAT is a broad category of molecular testing of which PCR is the primary method. NAAT testing involves/requires amplification of the viral RNA, allowing detection of very small amounts, which is why it takes some time. (PCR testing became famous in the OJ Simpson case as that was used in a big way for the first time to find traces of his DNA in the mixed samples of blood.)

However, the Abbot ID Now test, which IS a rapid nucleic acid amplification test performed by a CLIA certified lab and it provides results in 15 minutes or less. It received FDA EUA approval last week.






						Abbott ID NOW COVID-19 Assay
					

ID NOW™ COVID-19 assay performed on the ID NOW Instrument is a rapid molecular in vitro diagnostic test intended for the qualitative detection of nucleic acid from the SARS-CoV-2 viral RNA in direct nasal, nasopharyngeal or throat swabs and nasal, nasopharyngeal or throat swabs eluted in viral...




					www.cardinalhealth.com


----------



## JanT

Thank you, csodjd for that information.  My head is spinning trying to figure out how we're going to get tested and get our results back within 72 hours for our upcoming trip.  It sounds like if I can find someplace that  does the Abbott ID Now test we would be in much better shape than doing a NAAT test which might not provide our results back in time.



csodjd said:


> To be clear, NAAT is a broad category of molecular testing of which PCR is the primary method. NAAT testing involves/requires amplification of the viral RNA, allowing detection of very small amounts, which is why it takes some time. (PCR testing became famous in the OJ Simpson case as that was used in a big way for the first time to find traces of his DNA in the mixed samples of blood.)
> 
> However, the Abbot ID Now test, which IS a rapid nucleic acid amplification test performed by a CLIA certified lab and it provides results in 15 minutes or less. It received FDA EUA approval last week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Abbott ID NOW COVID-19 Assay
> 
> 
> ID NOW™ COVID-19 assay performed on the ID NOW Instrument is a rapid molecular in vitro diagnostic test intended for the qualitative detection of nucleic acid from the SARS-CoV-2 viral RNA in direct nasal, nasopharyngeal or throat swabs and nasal, nasopharyngeal or throat swabs eluted in viral...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cardinalhealth.com


----------



## csodjd

JanT said:


> Thank you, csodjd for that information.  My head is spinning trying to figure out how we're going to get tested and get our results back within 72 hours for our upcoming trip.  It sounds like if I can find someplace that  does the Abbott ID Now test we would be in much better shape than doing a NAAT test which might not provide our results back in time.


I suspect/hope that between now and Oct 15 there will be more clarity. For instance, it's still not clear/certain if 72 hrs means 3 days, or 72 hrs. And if the latter, 72 hrs from when to when? How do you address a test result that doesn't have the time of the test on it? What does "arrival" in Hawaii mean? Touchdown? When it's your turn at the front of the line? What about a flight to Maui that stops in Honolulu for 45 min? Understanding 72 hrs to mean 3 days makes all those testy questions go away. But if 72 means 72, those all have to be answered.


----------



## csodjd

I just went and looked at the actual order signed by the Governor. Exhibit B has the details. Here is what it says (I've added the bolding and deleted not relevant parts):

_§4 Mandatory Self-Quarantine . 
(a) All persons entering the State of Hawaii shall be subject to mandatory self quarantine, except:
... 
(2) those persons who have submitted a test sample for a State approved COVID-19 test *within 72 hours from the final leg of departure* and whose negative test results for the COVID-19 disease are verified by the State upon arrival.
...
(c) Notwithstanding the foregoing, those persons who have submitted a test sample for a State approved COVID-19 test *within 72 hours from the final leg of departure and whose test results were not available at arrival,* may thereafter submit negative test results to state officials designated by the Director of Emergency Management, and upon written acceptance from such officials, will no longer be subject to the mandatory self-quarantine._

What does "from the final leg of departure" mean? Does that mean from DEPARTURE or ARRIVAL? 

Because (c) speaks about not having the results "at arrival" I am led to believe that the phrase "within 72 hours from the final leg of departure" means you need to have TAKEN the test within 72 hours of when you leave or start your final leg. If you flew NYC to SF to HNL, that would mean when you departed SF for Honolulu. That effectively negates all the questions about what happens to your time upon arrival and effectively adds about 5-6 hours to the time window. 

It does not answer how you address written test results that do not indicate the time the test sample was submitted. But, if you DEPART for Hawaii at, say, 10:00am PST from SF or LAX on a Friday, Going back 72 hours is 10:00am PST 10:00am on Tuesday. That's essentially 3 days.


----------



## ljmiii

csodjd said:


> I suspect/hope that between now and Oct 15 there will be more clarity....What about a flight to Maui that stops in Honolulu for 45 min?


At the moment, the issue of travel to an island that isn't O'ahu is still completely in up in the air.  Interisland travel from O'ahu is still subject to a 14-day quarantine and in Gov. Ige's recent interview with the Star Advertiser he said he expected it to remain in place after October 15th because of the scarcity of testing and medical facilities.

Will a negative COVID-19 test get you out of interisland quarantine? Will a layover at HNL 'count' as interisland travel? And if so, how long a layover on O'ahu is allowed? Will you need a separate test obtained on O'ahu to visit other islands? And when will the interisland quarantine requirement for travel from O'ahu be lifted?

All details which will be worked out...but which are currently unaddressed. I wouldn't book an Oct 16th trip to anywhere but O'ahu.


----------



## DeniseM

Let's say I have 2 flights to get to Hawaii - the 2nd flight is my final leg of departure.

I don't think a flight from Honolulu to Maui counts as the final leg of travel, because you enter the state when you land on Oahu and that's when you have to meet the requirements.

If you start on the mainland, and then land on Oahu and then Maui, it would not be considered interisland travel, because your original point of departure was the mainland.


----------



## Kapolei

http://www.hawaiianrailway.com/  Too slow for my tastes, but good to see that Hawaiian Railway is reopening this week


----------



## cman

Here's a link to the Hawaii DOH travel faq's. I addresses some of the topics mentioned here;



			https://hawaiicovid19.com/travel/


----------



## csodjd

ljmiii said:


> At the moment, the issue of travel to an island that isn't O'ahu is still completely in up in the air.  Interisland travel from O'ahu is still subject to a 14-day quarantine and in Gov. Ige's recent interview with the Star Advertiser he said he expected it to remain in place after October 15th because of the scarcity of testing and medical facilities.
> 
> Will a negative COVID-19 test get you out of interisland quarantine? Will a layover at HNL 'count' as interisland travel? And if so, how long a layover on O'ahu is allowed? Will you need a separate test obtained on O'ahu to visit other islands? And when will the interisland quarantine requirement for travel from O'ahu be lifted?
> 
> All details which will be worked out...but which are currently unaddressed. I wouldn't book an Oct 16th trip to anywhere but O'ahu.


I believe the FAQ says that if you don't leave the airport in Honolulu and you connect to another island that's okay, it's like one flight. But if you leave the airport and, say, your connection flight is the next day, then that connection flight is an "inter-island" flight and those rules apply.


----------



## csodjd

HGVC Lover said:


> More information is coming out about the United program at other news outlets too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> United Airlines to offer Covid-19 testing for some passengers
> 
> 
> United will offer Covid-19 testing for Hawaii-bound passengers beginning October 15 out of San Francisco, in a pilot testing program that the airline hopes to extend to other destinations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


They are using the Abbott ID Now rapid test initially only at San Francisco for flights to Hawaii from what I read today. The interesting thing is that it appears the Abbott test satisfies the Hawaii rules. It becomes easy to imagine, if necessary, a "Hawaii Travelers" checkin area at the airport where you go to get your COVID test an hour or 90 min before your flight. The center would have its own CLIA approved lab running the Abbott machines, and the cost shared by the major airlines flying to Hawaii.


----------



## DannyTS

On Bloomberg it mentioned that the test is $250.








						United Air to Offer $250 Coronavirus Tests on Flights to Hawaii
					

United Airlines Holdings Inc. will offer on-the-spot coronavirus testing to customers flying to Hawaii who are willing to pay $250 to avoid a two-week quarantine on arrival.The carrier hopes the testing regimen can be expanded to help pave the way toward reigniting international travel, which...




					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## controller1

csodjd said:


> I just went and looked at the actual order signed by the Governor. Exhibit B has the details. Here is what it says (I've added the bolding and deleted not relevant parts):
> 
> _§4 Mandatory Self-Quarantine .
> (a) All persons entering the State of Hawaii shall be subject to mandatory self quarantine, except:
> ...
> (2) those persons who have submitted a test sample for a State approved COVID-19 test *within 72 hours from the final leg of departure* and whose negative test results for the COVID-19 disease are verified by the State upon arrival.
> ...
> (c) Notwithstanding the foregoing, those persons who have submitted a test sample for a State approved COVID-19 test *within 72 hours from the final leg of departure and whose test results were not available at arrival,* may thereafter submit negative test results to state officials designated by the Director of Emergency Management, and upon written acceptance from such officials, will no longer be subject to the mandatory self-quarantine._
> 
> What does "from the final leg of departure" mean? Does that mean from DEPARTURE or ARRIVAL?
> 
> Because (c) speaks about not having the results "at arrival" I am led to believe that the phrase "within 72 hours from the final leg of departure" means you need to have TAKEN the test within 72 hours of when you leave or start your final leg. If you flew NYC to SF to HNL, that would mean when you departed SF for Honolulu. That effectively negates all the questions about what happens to your time upon arrival and effectively adds about 5-6 hours to the time window.
> 
> It does not answer how you address written test results that do not indicate the time the test sample was submitted. But, if you DEPART for Hawaii at, say, 10:00am PST from SF or LAX on a Friday, Going back 72 hours is 10:00am PST 10:00am on Tuesday. That's essentially 3 days.



Yes, but apparently the Governor or whoever drafted the order may not have ever looked at the results of a COVID-19 test. My test and all that I'm aware of do not show the time of the test, only the date.


----------



## csodjd

controller1 said:


> Yes, but apparently the Governor or whoever drafted the order may not have ever looked at the results of a COVID-19 test. My test and all that I'm aware of do not show the time of the test, only the date.


Eh, nobody likes to be burdened with details. So, yes, I'm guessing nobody's actually ever looked, or they looked at their own that had it and have not considered labs around the US. More good reasons NOT to be on the first light over on Oct. 15.


----------



## JeffC

We have reservations for Kauai and the Big Island in April. Assuming we can get our tests and results in the 72 hr time frame prior to arrival, do we have to quarantine when flying from Kona to Kauai? If you get a second test before your inter-island flight can you avoid quarantine? Otherwise it would only make sense to visit 1 island.


----------



## ljmiii

JeffC said:


> We have reservations for Kauai and the Big Island in April. Assuming we can get our tests and results in the 72 hr time frame prior to arrival, do we have to quarantine when flying from Kona to Kauai? If you get a second test before your inter-island flight can you avoid quarantine? Otherwise it would only make sense to visit 1 island.


As of today the interisland quarantine from Kona to Kauai is still in effect with no dispensation for COVID testing. But I would be very, very surprised if that was still true in April.


----------



## klpca

Hawaiian Airlines rolls out drive-through COVID-19 testing in LA and San Francisco
					

Hawaiian will offer drive-through COVID-19 testing near LAX and SFO by Oct. 15, when Hawaii will allow visitors who test negative to skip quarantine.




					news.yahoo.com
				




Hawaiian Airlines is getting in on the deal.

_Hawaiian Airlines passengers who avail themselves of the offer can use drive-through services at Worksite Labs locations near LAX and SFO. They can opt to pay $90 to get their results within 36 hours or $150 for same-day results. Its Droplet Digital PCR shallow nasal swab tests meet Hawaii's testing requirements._


----------



## csodjd

klpca said:


> Hawaiian Airlines rolls out drive-through COVID-19 testing in LA and San Francisco
> 
> 
> Hawaiian will offer drive-through COVID-19 testing near LAX and SFO by Oct. 15, when Hawaii will allow visitors who test negative to skip quarantine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hawaiian Airlines is getting in on the deal.
> 
> _Hawaiian Airlines passengers who avail themselves of the offer can use drive-through services at Worksite Labs locations near LAX and SFO. They can opt to pay $90 to get their results within 36 hours or $150 for same-day results. Its Droplet Digital PCR shallow nasal swab tests meet Hawaii's testing requirements._


It was obvious that with United making their announcement that ALL of the airlines flying to Hawaii would have to do so also. Expect AA to announce something soon.


----------



## wilma

klpca said:


> Hawaiian Airlines rolls out drive-through COVID-19 testing in LA and San Francisco
> 
> 
> Hawaiian will offer drive-through COVID-19 testing near LAX and SFO by Oct. 15, when Hawaii will allow visitors who test negative to skip quarantine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hawaiian Airlines is getting in on the deal.
> 
> _Hawaiian Airlines passengers who avail themselves of the offer can use drive-through services at Worksite Labs locations near LAX and SFO. They can opt to pay $90 to get their results within 36 hours or $150 for same-day results. Its Droplet Digital PCR shallow nasal swab tests meet Hawaii's testing requirements._


Now we need Alaska airlines to join in.


----------



## MULTIZ321

Here's Why Rapid Testing For Hawaii Flights Might Just SaveTravel.










						Here’s Why Rapid Testing For Hawaii Flights Might Just Save Travel
					

United Airlines announced it would begin offering rapid COVID-19 testing for passengers traveling to Hawaii. If the scheme works and can be rolled out globally, it could mark a watershed moment for travel in the era of COVID-19. Here's why.




					www.forbes.com
				



.


Richard


----------



## klpca

csodjd said:


> It was obvious that with United making their announcement that ALL of the airlines flying to Hawaii would have to do so also. Expect AA to announce something soon.


Of course we leave out of San Diego so we still have to scramble. Or drive all the way to LA. Nah, I just cant do it, lol.


----------



## JanT

We're waiting to see if/when American announces.  I would suspect DFW will be a testing point since that is their main hub.  And of course, we didn't route through DFW but we're 5 hours driving distance from there so if they offer it at DFW we'll make the drive to/from to get our test done rather than take a gamble our results won't get back in time via regular testing method.  Plus, that would prevent a major problem should we test positive - we'd just cancel our 5 week trip.  Not sure how that would play out with all the ACs we used but we did take the insurance so hopefully it would all pan out.  Are you on United or Hawaiian?



klpca said:


> Of course we leave out of San Diego so we still have to scramble. Or drive all the way to LA. Nah, I just cant do it, lol.


----------



## klpca

JanT said:


> We're waiting to see if/when American announces.  I would suspect DFW will be a testing point since that is their main hub.  And of course, we didn't route through DFW but we're 5 hours driving distance from there so if they offer it at DFW we'll make the drive to/from to get our test done rather than take a gamble our results won't get back in time via regular testing method.  Plus, that would prevent a major problem should we test positive - we'd just cancel our 5 week trip.  Not sure how that would play out with all the ACs we used but we did take the insurance so hopefully it would all pan out.  Are you on United or Hawaiian?


Hawaiian.

Btw I booked our tickets soon after I used the AC's for the trip. When I booked I had quite a few choices of flights. I chose SAN-HNL-LIH. (Kauai on the first week and I am not sure what we are going to do if interisland travel doesn't open up, lol. See below). There was another flight that was routing through Maui but we would have landed later in the afternoon so I went with the earlier flight that connected in Honolulu. On Tues I received an email saying that our flights were changed. Now our SAN-HNL flight was later *plus* we had a 3 hour layover and didn't get into Lihue until 3:30. I went to rebook on the flight going through Maui and that option is no longer there. I don't know if the flight was full or canceled, but there weren't any other options. I'm not at all happy about a 3 hour layover in Honolulu. It's the last place I want to be - inside of a building during a pandemic. I haven't figured that out yet, but we may just sit on a bench outside. I think that now that things are actually happening, Hawaiian Airlines is consolidating their flights to maximize their passenger load (fair enough). Also I was concerned about our seat assignments on the new flight from Honolulu to Lihue and they are leaving seats open for social distancing. Middles are open and according to the person on the chat, only one person can be on the side of the plane with the two seat configuration.

Truthfully I am pretty relaxed about this entire trip. It may happen. It may not. I may have to try to get the second week changed to Kauai if the interisland travel doesn't reopen. Or I may have to cancel the second week. We may not be able to get tested in time and the whole thing may be off. One thing is for sure, anyone planning on going to Hawaii now needs to be pretty relaxed and go with the flow. Nothing is going to be normal. It's like playing Wheel of Fortune and who knows where we will end up on the travel wheel.


----------



## dannybaker

We canceled all five weeks to Hawaii, for end of November through December . Just to many variables involved . We will hang out at home this year.


----------



## kckaren21

klpca said:"Truthfully I am pretty relaxed about this entire trip. It may happen. It may not. I may have to try to get the second week changed to Kauai if the interisland travel doesn't reopen. Or I may have to cancel the second week. We may not be able to get tested in time and the whole thing may be off. One thing is for sure, anyone planning on going to Hawaii now needs to be pretty relaxed and go with the flow. Nothing is going to be normal. It's like playing Wheel of Fortune and who knows where we will end up on the travel wheel. "

We are going to Kauai first, too, then 2 other islands. My fingers are crossed that interisland travel doesn't get cancelled while we are there. I'm staying hopeful, but making sure plans are able to be canceled...


----------



## 10spro

wilma said:


> Now we need Alaska airlines to join in.


 I'm booked on Alaska to OGG 11/21. Hoping they get it together by then.


----------



## cman

Hawaiian Airlines to offer drive-thru COVID-19 testing in mainland labs exclusively for its guests
					

Hawaiian Airlines plans to offer drive-through COVID-19 tests in select U.S. mainland gateways that will allow travelers to bypass the state’s 14-day quarantine.




					www.staradvertiser.com


----------



## critterchick

I noticed that the HA announcement refers to facilities that are “near” LAX and SFO. I wonder how near? I should think that AA and AS would cooperate on testing at LAX since the AA flights to Hawaii depart from T5 and AS from T6. The distances between them aren’t that great and the passenger loads aren’t huge.


----------



## csodjd

critterchick said:


> I noticed that the HA announcement refers to facilities that are “near” LAX and SFO. I wonder how near? I should think that AA and AS would cooperate on testing at LAX since the AA flights to Hawaii depart from T5 and AS from T6. The distances between them aren’t that great and the passenger loads aren’t huge.


If you go to their website you'll learn that the testing entity is a company that brings a testing facility to a workplace and operates it there. So, a Google, or Apple, or a studio, or other large employer that wants/needs rapid and large scale employee testing (sports team, college, etc.) can hire them and they bring a lab to you. So, it isn't clear exactly how that will work with HA and the website doesn't explain (yet). But best guess is they will set up a drive up facility somewhere off the airport grounds (to avoid the costs and red tape of dealing with an airport) but close by.









						Home - Worksite Labs
					

Worksite Labs is a full-service diagnostic testing company. Our unique lab testing model makes it easier to access vital health services.




					www.worksitelabs.com


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> If you go to their website you'll learn that the testing entity is a company that brings a testing facility to a workplace and operates it there. So, a Google, or Apple, or a studio, or other large employer that wants/needs rapid and large scale employee testing (sports team, college, etc.) can hire them and they bring a lab to you. So, it isn't clear exactly how that will work with HA and the website doesn't explain (yet). But best guess is they will set up a drive up facility somewhere off the airport grounds (to avoid the costs and red tape of dealing with an airport) but close by.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home - Worksite Labs
> 
> 
> Worksite Labs is a full-service diagnostic testing company. Our unique lab testing model makes it easier to access vital health services.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worksitelabs.com



csodjd, I would like your educated and experienced thoughts on this:   I just heard from some friends in New York that medical people that they know are saying that the coronavirus has now weakened so that symptoms are much less severe.  Therefore, while as we know it is still spreading at a high rate around the world they are saying that the version that is spreading now has weakened.  They said that those that are dying each day have a version that was much worst from before the weakening.  My thinking is that perhaps the actual virus that is circulating here is NY has weakened since it was caught here early and started to spread here so early that the virus was passed from person to person mnay times and weakened.  What do you think?


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> csodjd, I would like your educated and experienced thoughts on this:   I just heard from some friends in New York that medical people that they know are saying that the coronavirus has now weakened so that symptoms are much less severe.  Therefore, while as we know it is still spreading at a high rate around the world they are saying that the version that is spreading now has weakened.  They said that those that are dying each day have a version that was much worst from before the weakening.  My thinking is that perhaps the actual virus that is circulating here is NY has weakened since it was caught here early and started to spread here so early that the virus was passed from person to person mnay times and weakened.  What do you think?


I know there's been some discussion of genetic mutations that may have increased its spread/infectious capability, but lessened the severity of the illness. I think the proof will be in the data, hospitalization rates, ICU rates, etc. Those don't lag THAT far behind new cases, so it won't be hard to see. But there are confounding factors, the largest being the (younger) age of those being infected right now, and perhaps next being the experience and tools now available to the treating doctors to prevent more serious and fatal disease. I've not seen anything published that demonstrates reduced virulence after accounting for those factors.

Here are two recent articles that say just that. 









						Coronavirus mutations: what we've learned so far
					

Some mutations have no effect, while others could impact transmissibility.




					www.livescience.com
				












						Professor Vincent Marechal: What we know about France’s Covid-19 cases
					

France has seen a sharp rise in the number of coronavirus infections in recent days. But the surge has not been matched by a rise in severe cases admitted to hospital, as has been the case in other countries.…




					www.rfi.fr
				




Hawaii, being a relatively small "lab," is actually a good measure. We can watch cases and patients in the ICU. https://www.hawaiidata.org/covid19 If the number of new cases stays steady ~100/day, but the number in the ICU gradually drops (it's recently dropped, but that's likely from the drop in cases from ~250-300 to ~100) that would evidence a less virulent disease.

That said, there is a natural selection for less deadly forms of a virus, since a dead host doesn't spread as much virus as does a live one. So you'd expect "evolution" to favor a mutated form that produces a less severe disease as it creates more opportunity to spread (called attenuation). 

That said, if you're at risk, you don't want COVID, or the flu. Either and both can be fatal to a person that's got co-morbidities such as COPD, diabetes, compromised immunity (as most people 75+ years of age have), etc.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> I know there's been some discussion of genetic mutations that may have increased its spread/infectious capability, but lessened the severity of the illness. I think the proof will be in the data, hospitalization rates, ICU rates, etc. Those don't lag THAT far behind new cases, so it won't be hard to see. But there are confounding factors, the largest being the (younger) age of those being infected right now, and perhaps next being the experience and tools now available to the treating doctors to prevent more serious and fatal disease. I've not seen anything published that demonstrates reduced virulence after accounting for those factors.
> 
> Here are two recent articles that say just that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus mutations: what we've learned so far
> 
> 
> Some mutations have no effect, while others could impact transmissibility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.livescience.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Professor Vincent Marechal: What we know about France’s Covid-19 cases
> 
> 
> France has seen a sharp rise in the number of coronavirus infections in recent days. But the surge has not been matched by a rise in severe cases admitted to hospital, as has been the case in other countries.…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rfi.fr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hawaii, being a relatively small "lab," is actually a good measure. We can watch cases and patients in the ICU. https://www.hawaiidata.org/covid19 If the number of new cases stays steady ~100/day, but the number in the ICU gradually drops (it's recently dropped, but that's likely from the drop in cases from ~250-300 to ~100) that would evidence a less virulent disease.
> 
> That said, there is a natural selection for less deadly forms of a virus, since a dead host doesn't spread as much virus as does a live one. So you'd expect "evolution" to favor a mutated form that produces a less severe disease as it creates more opportunity to spread (called attenuation).
> 
> That said, if you're at risk, you don't want COVID, or the flu. Either and both can be fatal to a person that's got co-morbidities such as COPD, diabetes, compromised immunity (as most people 75+ years of age have), etc.



Thanks for your thoguhts and the articles which certianly convinced me that we are doing the right thing trying to avoid getting the virus as much as possible.  These friends are in the 50's so they are not in the high risk group like we are as far as age.  The medical people that they know are still working so they most probably are younger also.  They started to get me thinking that we should change our Fall 2021 plans back to January 2021 again.  However, It is a nice wishful thinking that the virus is now less severe.  I think that I will wish for an effective safe vaccine as soon as it can be developed, tested, and tried on a few million people before we feel safe to get the vacine and move forward.


----------



## ljmiii

Tamaradarann said:


> I just heard from some friends in New York that medical people that they know are saying that the coronavirus has now weakened so that symptoms are much less severe...


This has not been seen by my friends who work in NYC hospitals. What has happened is that we know a lot more about treatment than we did in March and April.

More generally, COVID-19 has certainly mutated but there is no real evidence that the mutations make the virus more or less deadly, more or less transmissible, and/or more or less likely to be resistant to antibodies that resulted from previous exposure. Anecdotal stories about all of these changes exist (in both directions)...but nothing you can hang your hat on.

The $64B question is how long and how strongly resistance to COVID-19 from antibodies (whether gained through exposure or vaccine) lasts.


----------



## csodjd

ljmiii said:


> This has not been seen by my friends who work in NYC hospitals. What has happened is that we know a lot more about treatment than we did in March and April.
> 
> More generally, COVID-19 has certainly mutated but there is no real evidence that the mutations make the virus more or less deadly, more or less transmissible, and/or more or less likely to be resistant to antibodies that resulted from previous exposure. Anecdotal stories about all of these changes exist (in both directions)...but nothing you can hang your hat on.
> 
> The $64B question is how long and how strongly resistance to COVID-19 from antibodies (whether gained through exposure or vaccine) lasts.


On of the (many) reasons it takes a long time for a vaccine to get to the market is because they want and need that question answered BEFORE they start injecting people, and the only way to know is to monitor people over a period of several years, both for side effects and efficacy. A vaccine is largely worthless if it is effective for only 60 days, and even more so if you don't KNOW how long it is effective for. That creates long-term INCREASED, not decreased risk of infection due to the false sense of security it creates. 

There is little (no) doubt that a COVID vaccine will be approved before it is known how long it lasts.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> On of the (many) reasons it takes a long time for a vaccine to get to the market is because they want and need that question answered BEFORE they start injecting people, and the only way to know is to monitor people over a period of several years, both for side effects and efficacy. A vaccine is largely worthless if it is effective for only 60 days, and even more so if you don't KNOW how long it is effective for. That creates long-term INCREASED, not decreased risk of infection due to the false sense of security it creates.
> 
> There is little (no) doubt that a COVID vaccine will be approved before it is known how long it lasts.



That last statement is why I stated that I am wishing for a vaccine that is safe, TESTED, AND TRIED on a few Million People before we will feel safe to get it and move on.  Perhaps those that are pushing for the vacine to be approved without appropriate testing should be the guinea pigs that the vacine with be tried and tested on to see if it is safe and how long it is effective for.

I just heard that the first priority is to give it to the first responders and health care workers and then to the elderly who are most vulnerable which makes sense if it has already been appropriate tested.  Since as you suggest it won't be appropriately tested, perhaps the group that I suggested above should be before them.


----------



## jabberwocky

Tamaradarann said:


> That last statement is why I stated that I am wishing for a vaccine that is safe, TESTED, AND TRIED on a few Million People before we will feel safe to get it and move on.  Perhaps those that are pushing for the vacine to be approved without appropriate testing should be the guinea pigs that the vacine with be tried and tested on to see if it is safe and how long it is effective for.
> 
> I just heard that the first priority is to give it to the first responders and health care workers and then to the elderly who are most vulnerable which makes sense if it has already been appropriate tested.  Since as you suggest it won't be appropriately tested, perhaps the group that I suggested above should be before them.


A few million people is probably overkill. We should have a pretty good idea of how effective it is at the present study levels (about 30k people). It won't tell us how long it last, but that can't be determined until time passes. If the alternative is to lock-down the world until we know it gives 2, 5, 10 years immunity, we're in trouble.  

My question for you would be how long does it need to show effectiveness? By your standard you should never get the flu vaccine since we don't know if they will have selected the right strains and if it will be effective against those strains (and at that - for only one year).

If you've ever had the Yellow Fever vaccine a few years ago, you may have been told that it is only good for 10 years, after which time you need to get a booster.  They recently changed that after evaluating long-term studies which said it confers life-long immunity, so now no booster is necessary. I think a similar principle should hold here.  First determine does it provide some effective immunity.  If so, it can be approved.  Then we determine how long it is effective and give boosters if necessary.


----------



## csodjd

jabberwocky said:


> If you've ever had the Yellow Fever vaccine a few years ago, you may have been told that it is only good for 10 years, after which time you need to get a booster. They recently changed that after evaluating long-term studies which said it confers life-long immunity, so now no booster is necessary. I think a similar principle should hold here. First determine does it provide some effective immunity. If so, it can be approved. Then we determine how long it is effective and give boosters if necessary.


That's only true within reasonable parameters. If it only confers reliable immunity for 6 months, and it takes a year to vaccinate the world, then what? There's been a lot of conflicting data on immunity in those infected with the virus. I'm not sure we should expect a vaccine to provide MORE/longer immunity than the virus itself provides. This is a very complex interface between the artificial and the human immune response. And all that assumes some commonality -- that the immunity will last roughly the same across different people. Say you're taking an immunosuppresive for psoriasis, or IBS, or psoriatic arthritis. Will that diminish the response to a vaccine such that you have less longevity to the immunity? I could ask 1000 questions like that. 

Again, this is why it takes a long time for a vaccine to come to market.


----------



## Tamaradarann

jabberwocky said:


> A few million people is probably overkill. We should have a pretty good idea of how effective it is at the present study levels (about 30k people). It won't tell us how long it last, but that can't be determined until time passes. If the alternative is to lock-down the world until we know it gives 2, 5, 10 years immunity, we're in trouble.
> 
> My question for you would be how long does it need to show effectiveness? By your standard you should never get the flu vaccine since we don't know if they will have selected the right strains and if it will be effective against those strains (and at that - for only one year).
> 
> If you've ever had the Yellow Fever vaccine a few years ago, you may have been told that it is only good for 10 years, after which time you need to get a booster.  They recently changed that after evaluating long-term studies which said it confers life-long immunity, so now no booster is necessary. I think a similar principle should hold here.  First determine does it provide some effective immunity.  If so, it can be approved.  Then we determine how long it is effective and give boosters if necessary.



I can only answer your question with our position on travelling plans right now.  We have cancelled all of our 2020 plans.  We still have plans for January 2021, which is our traditional vacation time to get to Honolulu.   We will be cancelling those plans and developing a plan for fall of 2021.  As 2021 develops we should have a much better idea about the development of a vaccine, its effectiveness, and perhaps some data on the how long that effectiveness is lasting.  In the summer of 2021 we will revisit our plans and make the decision to go or not to go.

We will not be one of the first to get the vaccine since as cosdjd has said that when it becomes available it will not have been tested per the normal procedures.  We will let others who are so high on rushing the virus to the market be the Guinea Pigs and do the testing for us.


----------



## DannyTS

Nobody says we should lower the guard down after the vaccination. One of the scopes of a vaccine is to reach herd immunity faster so by not getting it one would hurt others more than himself. Even if a vaccine is only 50% effective (and it will probably be more than that), it can help a lot in spreading the virus.


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> Nobody says we should lower the guard down after the vaccination. One of the scopes of a vaccine is to reach herd immunity faster so by not getting it one would hurt others more than himself. Even if a vaccine is only 50% effective (and it will probably be more than that), it can help a lot in spreading the virus.


I think LOTS of people say our guard can be lowered once there is a vaccine. And you cannot obtain herd immunity from a 50 or even 60% effective vaccine, even with 100% of people receiving it, which will never happen. Even the phrase “herd immunity“ is misleading because it is not immunity at all. It just means enough people are immune that you’re not likely to catch it because it doesn’t spread well in a community. But you CAN catch it, so it’s not actually immunity. 

My own feeling is that COVID is a new virus that’ll be around for a while. A new page in the infectious disease textbooks. Just as we have a flu vaccine, but people still get the flu, and some die, so too COVID. The keys are developing effective treatments and vaccines to reduce case counts and risk. If science can bring its numbers down to flu levels or below, we probably can consider that a success and move on with our lives Knowing you’re no more likely to catch, or die from, COVID than you are and have been from flu.


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> I think LOTS of people say our guard can be lowered once there is a vaccine. And you cannot obtain herd immunity from a 50 or even 60% effective vaccine, even with 100% of people receiving it, which will never happen. Even the phrase “herd immunity“ is misleading because it is not immunity at all. It just means enough people are immune that you’re not likely to catch it because it doesn’t spread well in a community. But you CAN catch it, so it’s not actually immunity.
> 
> My own feeling is that COVID is a new virus that’ll be around for a while. A new page in the infectious disease textbooks. Just as we have a flu vaccine, but people still get the flu, and some die, so too COVID. The keys are developing effective treatments and vaccines to reduce case counts and risk. If science can bring its numbers down to flu levels or below, we probably can consider that a success and move on with our lives Knowing you’re no more likely to catch, or die from, COVID than you are and have been from flu.




There is no reason why you should not get the vaccine AND keep the guard up if you are referring to your own case. Indeed studies show that people wearing masks maybe less careful because of a perceived sense of safety but that is not a reason to not wear a mask. It is like saying I am not going to wear a seatbelt because I would drive less carefully. 
I have not heard one health care official (including Dr. Fauci) saying that people should avoid an approved vaccine. Dr Fauci said he would get it himself. If you are of the view that you should not be vaccinated it is your prerogative but, I am not sure TUG is the place  to give that kind of advice to others.


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> There is no reason why you should not get the vaccine AND keep the guard up if you are referring to your own case. Indeed studies show that people wearing masks maybe less careful because of a perceived sense of safety but that is not a reason to not wear a mask. It is like saying I am not going to wear a seatbelt because I would drive less carefully.
> I have not heard one health care official (including Dr. Fauci) saying that people should avoid an approved vaccine. Dr Fauci said he would get it himself. If you are of the view that you should not be vaccinated it is your prerogative but, I am not sure TUG is the place  to give that kind of advice to others.


You've profoundly misinterpreted my comments. I have no idea where you get the idea that I advise against a vaccine, or that I would not get one. Those are both wrong. I am saying it's not the end all to keeping one's "guard up" or with dealing with COVID. We have a vaccine for flu, but we have lots of flu, including in some that are vaccinated. I expect the same with COVID. But I'm all for a 50% or so reduction in risk -- once I know it is safe (benefits significantly outweigh risks) and have some idea of how long it will last (so it has meaningful value). Sadly, there are good indications we may not know either when a vaccine is first released. (Yesterday it was reported that the WH had blocked release of the FDA's new "tougher" standards on approving a vaccine, for instance.) 

I'd urge you to read more carefully before attacking one for views not expressed in the post nor even reasonably inferred by it. (My statement, "The keys are developing *effective treatments and vaccines* to reduce case counts and risk," is not a statement even remotely susceptible to being an anti-vaccine statement.)


----------



## rickandcindy23

Hand washing is something I would like to see continue for those who do not regularly wash in public restrooms.  What the heck is the deal with that?  I am amazed at the people going into a bathroom at Disney, or the airport, or a restaurant, and they are skipping the stop at the sink.  It's gross.  Wash your hands and use hand sanitizer.  Hand sanitizer doesn't replace hand washing.  

I have allergies this year, and they usually aren't this bad.  My kids keep teasing me that I might have the "Rona."  Itchy eyes and nose, sneezing multiple times, even a mild sore throat, but it's not "Rona."  

I am excited for our Maui trip in February and have been promised by our doctor that a test for the virus is 24 hours tops.


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> You've profoundly misinterpreted my comments. I have no idea where you get the idea that I advise against a vaccine, or that I would not get one. Those are both wrong. I am saying it's not the end all to keeping one's "guard up" or with dealing with COVID. We have a vaccine for flu, but we have lots of flu, including in some that are vaccinated. I expect the same with COVID. But I'm all for a 50% or so reduction in risk -- once I know it is safe (benefits significantly outweigh risks) and have some idea of how long it will last (so it has meaningful value). Sadly, there are good indications we may not know either when a vaccine is first released. (*Yesterday it was reported that the WH had blocked release of the FDA's new "tougher" standards on approving a vaccine, for instance.*)
> 
> I'd urge you to read more carefully before attacking one for views not expressed in the post nor even reasonably inferred by it. (My statement, "The keys are developing *effective treatments and vaccines* to reduce case counts and risk," is not a statement even remotely susceptible to being an anti-vaccine statement.)


Maybe I got the idea from reading your posts? you said for example:
"On of the (many) reasons it takes a long time for a vaccine to get to the market is because they want and need that question answered BEFORE they start injecting people, and the only way to know is to monitor people over a period of several years, both for side effects and efficacy. A vaccine is largely worthless if it is effective for only 60 days, and even more so if you don't KNOW how long it is effective for. That creates long-term INCREASED, not decreased risk of infection due to the false sense of security it creates.

There is little (no) doubt that a COVID vaccine will be approved before it is known how long it lasts. "


I am glad to hear I misunderstood your position and that you are for the vaccination. Funny how you claim you are not against it while casting doubt about the vaccine few sentences later.


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> I am glad to hear I misunderstood your position and that you are for the vaccination. Funny how you claim you are not against it while casting doubt about the vaccine few sentences later.


Casting doubt on a vaccine that has not been adequately tested is very different than casting doubt on vaccines. The political interference with the development of this vaccine is, to my knowledge, unprecedented in modern medicine. Normally the government puts up barriers to ensure, as much as possible, that nothing is approved that should not be approved. They demand more, and then more, testing and results. It takes companies years and many millions to CONVINCE regulators their drug is safe and effective. There is good reason to believe none of that is happening here, and the risks that creates are also unprecedented.


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> Casting doubt on a vaccine that has not been adequately tested is very different than casting doubt on vaccines. The political interference with the development of this vaccine is, to my knowledge, unprecedented in modern medicine. Normally the government puts up barriers to ensure, as much as possible, that nothing is approved that should not be approved. They demand more, and then more, testing and results. It takes companies years and many millions to CONVINCE regulators their drug is safe and effective. There is good reason to believe none of that is happening here, and the risks that creates are also unprecedented.


I think we were indeed talking about a C-19 vaccine.  You can bet many countries will approve them more or less at the same time so let's keep politics out of this. Canada has secured 150 million doses for a population of 38 millions. I am still not sure if you are for or against it. Would you get a vaccine that is approved both in Canada and the US?


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> I think we were indeed talking about a C-19 vaccine.  You can bet many countries will approve them more or less at the same time so let's keep politics out of this. Canada has secured 150 million doses for a population of 38 millions. I am still not sure if you are for or against it. Would you get a vaccine that is approved both in Canada and the US?


The FDA, throughout my career going back to 1980, has been the world's preeminent body for ensuring safety and effectiveness of drugs and vaccines. They don't bat 100%, but have historically been more restrictive and protective of the population they serve than other countries in their demand that the drugs be proven safe and effective. There are, as a result, many drugs used in other countries that the FDA has not approved here because the FDA was not convinced (or, in some cases, because the drug company did not feel they could meet FDA standards and never sought FDA approval). Perhaps that's because they must guard against the enormous profit motive that exists in the US for drug companies to "fudge" in their effort to gain entry into the US market. (I was taught from the start to examine papers/studies giving due consideration to who did the study and who funded it, and to exercise greater scrutiny of any study run or funded by the drug company itself.)

Today we find ourselves in a bizarre world where the drug companies are self-imposing stricter standards because THEY don't trust that the FDA will be allowed to exercise its' regulatory authority free from political influence. That is unprecedented. Usually the drug companies are screaming at the FDA for being too demanding, and now they are worried that the FDA won't be demanding enough. The fact is, you cannot keep politics out of it because politics have permeated a process that was largely apolitical before COVID.

Statements like, "Canada has secured 150 million doses for a population of 38 millions" mean nothing to me. Doses of what? Under what criteria for approval and use?

Russia is already vaccinating their people with an "approved" vaccine? Do you trust it? If not, why not? China has a vaccine that's received emergency use authorization there. (https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-beijing-china-archive-f6cd7cb2bbec79234672a1b444d3b6c6) Do you trust it? If not, why not? Should we trust Canada more (or less) than Russia and China? Why or why not?

I want to trust the FDA. That's who WE have trusted for a long time. The current political situation and influence on the FDA is making it hard to do so.

Whatever direction one goes will entail a compromise from ideal.

Thus, for me, in this instance, BECAUSE of the undeniable affect and influence of politics on the US institutions designed to protect us, and the less demanding processes in other countries, I will look at the clinical papers and peer-reviewed study data and outcomes (not necessarily the conclusions) to determine if I am comfortable with a vaccine, and which vaccine. The compromise I will make is in the parenthetical above -- I will compromise my concern about studies done by or funded by the drug companies and will give them more trust than I might have otherwise done.

I think it is also important to keep one more thing in mind. There are several vaccine candidates, and they are different. They use different techniques to induce the immune response. If you jump at the first one approved you may well deny yourself the ability to use an alternative that may well be more effective, last longer, etc. We not only need to know which vaccine works, but which works best. Since I expect that several will receive EUA over a period of several months, I will certainly wait until I see the options.


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> The FDA, throughout my career going back to 1980, has been the world's preeminent body for ensuring safety and effectiveness of drugs and vaccines. They don't bat 100%, but have historically been more restrictive and protective of the population they serve than other countries in their demand that the drugs be proven safe and effective. There are, as a result, many drugs used in other countries that the FDA has not approved here because the FDA was not convinced (or, in some cases, because the drug company did not feel they could meet FDA standards and never sought FDA approval). Perhaps that's because they must guard against the enormous profit motive that exists in the US for drug companies to "fudge" in their effort to gain entry into the US market. (I was taught from the start to examine papers/studies giving due consideration to who did the study and who funded it, and to exercise greater scrutiny of any study run or funded by the drug company itself.)
> 
> Today we find ourselves in a bizarre world where the drug companies are self-imposing stricter standards because THEY don't trust that the FDA will be allowed to exercise its' regulatory authority free from political influence. That is unprecedented. Usually the drug companies are screaming at the FDA for being too demanding, and now they are worried that the FDA won't be demanding enough. The fact is, you cannot keep politics out of it because politics have permeated a process that was largely apolitical before COVID.
> 
> Statements like, "Canada has secured 150 million doses for a population of 38 millions" mean nothing to me. Doses of what? Under what criteria for approval and use?
> 
> Russia is already vaccinating their people with an "approved" vaccine? Do you trust it? If not, why not? China has a vaccine that's received emergency use authorization there. (https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-beijing-china-archive-f6cd7cb2bbec79234672a1b444d3b6c6) Do you trust it? If not, why not? Should we trust Canada more (or less) than Russia and China? Why or why not?
> 
> I want to trust the FDA. That's who WE have trusted for a long time. The current political situation and influence on the FDA is making it hard to do so.
> 
> Whatever direction one goes will entail a compromise from ideal.
> 
> Thus, for me, in this instance, BECAUSE of the undeniable affect and influence of politics on the US institutions designed to protect us, and the less demanding processes in other countries, I will look at the clinical papers and peer-reviewed study data and outcomes (not necessarily the conclusions) to determine if I am comfortable with a vaccine, and which vaccine. The compromise I will make is in the parenthetical above -- I will compromise my concern about studies done by or funded by the drug companies and will give them more trust than I might have otherwise done.
> 
> I think it is also important to keep one more thing in mind. There are several vaccine candidates, and they are different. They use different techniques to induce the immune response. If you jump at the first one approved you may well deny yourself the ability to use an alternative that may well be more effective, last longer, etc. We not only need to know which vaccine works, but which works best. Since I expect that several will receive EUA over a period of several months, I will certainly wait until I see the options.


Canada has secured the doses under the condition that they will be approved by the Canadian regulators. This is why they secured more doses than the population, expecting that not all vaccines (if any) will be approved.

My point is that if you do not trust your own regulators, if one vaccine is approved both in Canada and in the US, would you trust it? Would you get vaccinated? I am not sure why you are talking about Russia, I was talking about Canada and the US, countries with similar (not identical indeed) approval processes.

Again you seem to take a wait and see approach for several months. You probably hope not everyone thinks like you do.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

csodjd said:


> That's only true within reasonable parameters. If it only confers reliable immunity for 6 months, and it takes a year to vaccinate the world, then what? There's been a lot of conflicting data on immunity in those infected with the virus. I'm not sure we should expect a vaccine to provide MORE/longer immunity than the virus itself provides. This is a very complex interface between the artificial and the human immune response. And all that assumes some commonality -- that the immunity will last roughly the same across different people. Say you're taking an immunosuppresive for psoriasis, or IBS, or psoriatic arthritis. Will that diminish the response to a vaccine such that you have less longevity to the immunity? I could ask 1000 questions like that.
> 
> Again, this is why it takes a long time for a vaccine to come to market.



Historically i have been a big believer in vaccines, and as a frequent global traveler think i have everything the CDC has recommended for the regions visit, yellow fever, typoid, etc..  Get my flu shot every year, etc..

At the moment i am planning to get a corvid vaccine, but won't decide for certain until one or more is actually approved so i can understand the specifics of that.

My wife is immunosuppressed due to being a transplant recipient,  will we have to wait and see what her transplant team says about any vaccine for her, some they encourage and some they recommend against.  There are so many candidates right now its not worth discussing with her Doctors, and they may not even have opinions yet.

Personally all i am hoping is that vaccines and better treatments reduce the virus to something less toxic.. and we can all get back to more normal activities.


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> You probably hope not everyone thinks like you do.


I only hope we're all given honest information from which we can make informed decisions of what's best for us and our families.


----------



## Tamaradarann

DannyTS said:


> There is no reason why you should not get the vaccine AND keep the guard up if you are referring to your own case. Indeed studies show that people wearing masks maybe less careful because of a perceived sense of safety but that is not a reason to not wear a mask. It is like saying I am not going to wear a seatbelt because I would drive less carefully.
> I have not heard one health care official (including Dr. Fauci) saying that people should avoid an approved vaccine. Dr Fauci said he would get it himself. If you are of the view that you should not be vaccinated it is your prerogative but, I am not sure TUG is the place  to give that kind of advice to others.



I agree with cosdjd thinking about getting the vaccine.  He is *NOT* advising against getting the vaccine.  I am anxiously waiting for a *safe, effective and appropriately tested and approved vaccine.*  However, rushing a vaccine to be approved against medical experts advice leads me to say let those that are pushing for a vaccine to be approved, contrary to medical experts advice, be the guinea pigs to try the vaccine so that they in practicality become part of an extended testing period.  We will wait for the results of the extended test.


----------



## csodjd

1Kflyerguy said:


> Historically i have been a big believer in vaccines, and as a frequent global traveler think i have everything the CDC has recommended for the regions visit, yellow fever, typoid, etc..  Get my flu shot every year, etc..
> 
> At the moment i am planning to get a corvid vaccine, but won't decide for certain until one or more is actually approved so i can understand the specifics of that.
> 
> My wife is immunosuppressed due to being a transplant recipient,  will we have to wait and see what her transplant team says about any vaccine for her, some they encourage and some they recommend against.  There are so many candidates right now its not worth discussing with her Doctors, and they may not even have opinions yet.
> 
> Personally all i am hoping is that vaccines and better treatments reduce the virus to something less toxic.. and we can all get back to more normal activities.


We'll get back to more normal. This was a unique virus and unique situation that forced an extreme response. Unique in its wide variability in presentation, its lengthy incubation, its wide variability in course (really, how many things cover the range from no symptoms at all to death?), and our lack of preparation. And, possibly, the fact that it arose in China and not somewhere more forthcoming. All these coalesced to a perfect storm. With so many dying initially the fear of a 5% or even 10% death rate was there, with no treatment and people seemingly getting sick out of nowhere (made worse by a lack of testing). 

We're not even one year in yet. But we do now have the power, if not the will, to control its spread. Simple stuff like masks, hand washing, and hopefully soon readily available quick and inexpensive testing. That last part really does open things up. Want the family over for Thanksgiving... everyone test themselves 2 days before, and again just before coming.


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## csodjd

1Kflyerguy said:


> My wife is immunosuppressed due to being a transplant recipient, will we have to wait and see what her transplant team says about any vaccine for her, some they encourage and some they recommend against.


Mine is immunosuppressed also. The challenge is that the vaccine may not work because it requires a robust immune response. Because these vaccines are just based on virus fragments I don't think there will be infection risk. Just immune response failure. But I'll defer to the transplant and immunology experts at the end of the day.


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## TXTortoise

Latest summary of entry process...









						Preview of Hawaii's pre-travel COVID testing program details that will be announced October 1st - Go Visit Hawaii
					

In a Facebook live chat with Lt. Gov. Green that was hosted by the Honolulu Star-Advertiser, more details about the pre-travel testing program were revealed. Green says that on Thursday,…




					www.govisithawaii.com


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## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> Today we find ourselves in a bizarre world where the drug companies are self-imposing stricter standards because THEY don't trust that the FDA will be allowed to exercise its' regulatory


can you provide backup for this statement?


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## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> can you provide backup for this statement?


Perhaps you could have spent the 10 seconds to find this instead of challenging me to do it for you. There is, of course, much more. Go find it if you care about it.









						Amid broad mistrust of FDA and Trump administration, drug companies seek to reassure public about Covid-19 vaccine safety
					

Nine leading drug companies pledged to submit Covid-19 vaccines for authorization only “after demonstrating safety and efficacy through a Phase 3 clinical study.”




					www.statnews.com


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## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> Perhaps you could have spent the 10 seconds to find this instead of challenging me to do it for you. There is, of course, much more. Go find it if you care about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amid broad mistrust of FDA and Trump administration, drug companies seek to reassure public about Covid-19 vaccine safety
> 
> 
> Nine leading drug companies pledged to submit Covid-19 vaccines for authorization only “after demonstrating safety and efficacy through a Phase 3 clinical study.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statnews.com


I do not see the part where "THEY don't trust that the FDA will be allowed to exercise its' regulatory authority free from political influence " or anything of that nature as you stated, so I guess that was your interpretation. This is exactly what I thought.

My interpretation is that they are just responding to the media hype, not that THEY do not trust the FDA. Besides, at any given time, shouldn't these companies only submit for approval drugs that are deemed to be safe?


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## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> I do not see the part where "THEY don't trust that the FDA will be allowed to exercise its' regulatory authority free from political influence " or anything of that nature as you stated, so I guess that was your interpretation. This is exactly what I thought.
> 
> My interpretation is that they are just responding to the media hype, not that THEY do not trust the FDA. Besides, at any given time, shouldn't these companies only submit for approval drugs that are deemed to be safe?


Interpret as you wish. Your interpretation makes no difference to me. 

"_Their statement comes as President Trump continues to push for a rapid vaccine approval, repeatedly pointing to late October as a potential approval date. At a press conference on Monday, he said a vaccine authorization could come “before a very special date” — a clear allusion to the Nov. 3 general election. In recent weeks, top U.S. health officials have further damaged the Food and Drug Administration’s reputation for making independent, science-driven decisions. Last month, FDA commissioner Stephen Hahn misrepresented data about the ability of blood plasma from recovered Covid-19 patients to treat the disease after Trump falsely touted the treatment as a breakthrough. Though he issued a partial apology in the ensuing days, he has not fully corrected his misleading remarks. Health secretary Alex Azar, who made a nearly identical false claim that blood plasma could reduce Covid-19 deaths by 35%, has not recanted his remarks._"


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> Interpret as you wish. Your interpretation makes no difference to me.
> 
> "_Their statement comes as President Trump continues to push for a rapid vaccine approval, repeatedly pointing to late October as a potential approval date. At a press conference on Monday, he said a vaccine authorization could come “before a very special date” — a clear allusion to the Nov. 3 general election. In recent weeks, top U.S. health officials have further damaged the Food and Drug Administration’s reputation for making independent, science-driven decisions. Last month, FDA commissioner Stephen Hahn misrepresented data about the ability of blood plasma from recovered Covid-19 patients to treat the disease after Trump falsely touted the treatment as a breakthrough. Though he issued a partial apology in the ensuing days, he has not fully corrected his misleading remarks. Health secretary Alex Azar, who made a nearly identical false claim that blood plasma could reduce Covid-19 deaths by 35%, has not recanted his remarks._"


that is the interpretation of those that wrote the article, there is no mention of what THEY think. Your comments have been full of political innuendo, against the TUG rules.


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## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> that is the interpretation of those that wrote the article, there is no mention of what THEY think. Your comments have been full of political innuendo, against the TUG rules.


It's amusing. I've had several private messages that you're just trolling, and that you'll be sure to always get the last word in. Personally I found it complimentary that you feel it's necessary to troll me and my comments. Thank you for that. And now your last word is....


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> It's amusing. I've had several private messages that you're just trolling, and that you'll be sure to always get the last word in. Personally I found it complimentary that you feel it's necessary to troll me and my comments. Thank you for that. And now your last word is....


Not following, what _private_ messages did you have?

I am not trolling you, I just find it amusing that you are digging deeper and deeper in the political arena, which was clear to begin with. You chose to "clarify" your comments.


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## kckaren21

TXTortoise said:


> Latest summary of entry process...



Thanks for posting this and to all: I hope we can continue sharing information without 'attacking' each other or feeling attacked! This is such a valuable space for sharing and helping each other, and I hope we can do this (even if we disagree on some things, do so respectfully/considerately) without any bad energy or bad feelings. 

Thanks to all for your  time and energy sharing good information!


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## DeniseM

Time out, boys!  This is the HAWAII Forum, not the Vaccine forum!

Any more Vaccine posts will be deleted!


----------



## Luanne

nalismom said:


> American Airlines will be offering pre-travel testing at DFW:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Airlines will offer preflight COVID-19 testing at DFW for flights to Hawaii
> 
> 
> American Airlines will start preflight COVID-19 testing, including on trips from DFW International Airport to Hawaii, as the carrier tries to boost travel to...
> 
> 
> 
> www.dallasnews.com


I wonder how much they will be charging.  It doesn't say in the article.


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## JanT

So, the question is can you only have the test done if you’re flying out of DFW?  Or are they saying it can be done at DFW even if you’re flying out of another hub?  


nalismom said:


> American Airlines will be offering pre-travel testing at DFW:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Airlines will offer preflight COVID-19 testing at DFW for flights to Hawaii
> 
> 
> American Airlines will start preflight COVID-19 testing, including on trips from DFW International Airport to Hawaii, as the carrier tries to boost travel to...
> 
> 
> 
> www.dallasnews.com


----------



## Luanne

JanT said:


> So, the question is can you only have the test done if you’re flying out of DFW?  Or are they saying it can be done at DFW even if you’re flying out of another hub?


I may be confused by your question.  Are you asking if your flight originates elsewhere, but you go through DFW on your way to Hawaii can you be tested?  I would assume so (and that's just my assumption), but unless you plan a long layover or overnight stay, you might not get the results in time.  I notice the article also did not mention how long it will take for results.


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## controller1

Luanne said:


> I may be confused by your question.  Are you asking if your flight originates elsewhere, but you go through DFW on your way to Hawaii can you be tested?  I would assume so (and that's just my assumption), but unless you plan a long layover or overnight stay, you might not get the results in time.  I notice the article also did not mention how long it will take for results.



Even if they said the results would be ready in 20 minutes how would they staff? Would they require an RSVP? What if 200+ people going to Maui wanted to be tested and another 200+ going to Honolulu?


----------



## JanT

Currently, we are flying from San Antonio, routing through Phoenix to Honolulu.  My question is, could I go to DFW to get tested and still take my current flight schedule from San Antonio?  Or do I have to either originate or route through DFW?  I'm assuming that we would have to route through DFW but I'm going to check to see if that's the case.



Luanne said:


> I may be confused by your question.  Are you asking if your flight originates elsewhere, but you go through DFW on your way to Hawaii can you be tested?  I would assume so (and that's just my assumption), but unless you plan a long layover or overnight stay, you might not get the results in time.  I notice the article also did not mention how long it will take for results.


----------



## Luanne

JanT said:


> Currently, we are flying from San Antonio, routing through Phoenix to Honolulu.  My question is, could I go to DFW to get tested and still take my current flight schedule from San Antonio?  Or do I have to either originate or route through DFW?  I'm assuming that we would have to route through DFW but I'm going to check to see if that's the case.


Thanks for the clarification.  I don't have an answer.  When I was reading the information from Hawaiian Airlines it looks like their testing will be done at locations that are close to, but not on airport grounds.  Of course that doesn't help with American.


----------



## JanT

Is Hawaiian limiting testing to certain hubs?  I can't see why as long as the test is administered that it can't be out of another city but who knows what American will do.  I'm going to call tomorrow to see if I can get some clarification.  Thanks, Luanne!



Luanne said:


> Thanks for the clarification.  I don't have an answer.  When I was reading the information from Hawaiian Airlines it looks like their testing will be done at locations that are close to, but not on airport grounds.  Of course that doesn't help with American.


----------



## csodjd

controller1 said:


> Even if they said the results would be ready in 20 minutes how would they staff? Would they require an RSVP? What if 200+ people going to Maui wanted to be tested and another 200+ going to Honolulu?


The logistics are challenging. And who really wants to pack up the family, head to the airport, and only then find out if they can go or not? Offering airport testing is a nice backstop, but I have to believe most responsible travelers will do their best to obtain a test a couple days earlier. To that end, Hawaii working with CVS, Kaiser, now Walmart and Quest, and hopefully others is really the BEST answer. Test Tuesday, results Wednesday, leave Friday morning. Most can make that work.


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## jabberwocky

Can we maybe keep this thread to factual news? I realize the other thread has been locked - but we’re starting to get away from the intent of the thread IMO.


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## JanT

We certainly want to ensure we’ll be able to go but luckily there’s only two of us.  I wouldn’t take a chance on an airport test if I had a family.  

I didn’t realize Walmart and Quest had been added to the list of partners. Has that been confirmed?  I did not see it on the website.



csodjd said:


> The logistics are challenging. And who really wants to pack up the family, head to the airport, and only then find out if they can go or not? Offering airport testing is a nice backstop, but I have to believe most responsible travelers will do their best to obtain a test a couple days earlier. To that end, Hawaii working with CVS, Kaiser, now Walmart and Quest, and hopefully others is really the BEST answer. Test Tuesday, results Wednesday, leave Friday morning. Most can make that work.


----------



## nalismom

Here is Business Insider article....I believe this is clearer....you can also get your test 72 hours before your flight from CareNow urgent clinics.  From what I’ve seen so far...CVS, Walmart , Walgreens have not yet entered information into their system’s specifying Hawaii flights.



			https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2020/09/30/american-airlines-to-offer-covid-19-testing-on-select-routes/
		


I have a trip planned to Maui in December and am leaning towards visiting a clinic whether it’s a CareNow (90 miles away) or a CVS, Walmart, Walgreens 72 hours ahead of flight.


----------



## csodjd

JanT said:


> We certainly want to ensure we’ll be able to go but luckily there’s only two of us.  I wouldn’t take a chance on an airport test if I had a family.
> 
> I didn’t realize Walmart and Quest had been added to the list of partners. Has that been confirmed?  I did not see it on the website.


No, I only read that they were in discussions with them and that they both expect by Oct 15 to have a process available. Quest has such a solid testing infrastructure in place across the country its an obvious connection. If they could add LabCorp they’d probably not need much else!


----------



## csodjd

A different approach: "For travelers looking for options, Oakland international airport is offering free testing to anyone with a Hawaii destination." 









						Councilman calls on the governor to prove Hawaii is ready to welcome back visitors
					

Many are questioning if the state’s pre-travel testing program is ready for launch.




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com


----------



## ljmiii

nalismom said:


> Here is Business Insider article....


When last I looked yesterday, the info from the Hawaiian DoT, DoH, and Gov Ige's order were all slightly different. I also saw an article stating that United's cheaper test was *not* approved (at least in the minds of some Hawaiian official) despite United's claims to the contrary. I'd let things settle before committing to any particular option.


----------



## controller1

csodjd said:


> The logistics are challenging. And who really wants to pack up the family, head to the airport, and only then find out if they can go or not? Offering airport testing is a nice backstop, but I have to believe most responsible travelers will do their best to obtain a test a couple days earlier. To that end, Hawaii working with CVS, Kaiser, now Walmart and Quest, and hopefully others is really the BEST answer. Test Tuesday, results Wednesday, leave Friday morning. Most can make that work.



I hadn't heard they were also working with Walmart. I had heard they were working with Walgreen's.


----------



## controller1

Just bumping this because it is obvious in the "facts only" thread people believe discussion must be done there since they believe this thread is closed.


----------



## DeniseM

I opened it this morning, and just moved those posts over here.


----------



## JanT

Everything I've read (including  the link you provided) seems to indicate that American is offering testing for flights *only *originating out of DFW (or routing through DFW as well I suppose).  I'm not sure if that's correct or not but it's how it reads to me.  Because we are not leaving out of or even routing through DFW we'll have to stick with our plan to go to Quest, CVS, or potentially CareNow and take our chances that our results come back in time.  If not, we'll have to quarantine until they do.  If we were routing through DFW or leaving from there I'd do the rapid test at the airport.  With that said, the Hawaii DoT, etc. says that a rapid test is not approved.  Personally, I don't think they know what the Hell they're doing.  It's going to be a test of patience to work our way through it.  I wouldn't do it for a one or two week vacation but since we're going for 5 weeks, it's worth it to us.  We'll quarantine if we have to and work our way through it. 



nalismom said:


> Here is Business Insider article....I believe this is clearer....you can also get your test 72 hours before your flight from CareNow urgent clinics.  From what I’ve seen so far...CVS, Walmart , Walgreens have not yet entered information into their system’s specifying Hawaii flights.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2020/09/30/american-airlines-to-offer-covid-19-testing-on-select-routes/
> 
> 
> 
> I have a trip planned to Maui in December and am leaning towards visiting a clinic whether it’s a CareNow (90 miles away) or a CVS, Walmart, Walgreens 72 hours ahead of flight.


----------



## csodjd

JanT said:


> Everything I've read (including  the link you provided) seems to indicate that American is offering testing for flights *only *originating out of DFW (or routing through DFW as well I suppose).  I'm not sure if that's correct or not but it's how it reads to me.  Because we are not leaving out of or even routing through DFW we'll have to stick with our plan to go to Quest, CVS, or potentially CareNow and take our chances that our results come back in time.  If not, we'll have to quarantine until they do.  If we were routing through DFW or leaving from there I'd do the rapid test at the airport.  With that said, the Hawaii DoT, etc. says that a rapid test is not approved.  Personally, I don't think they know what the Hell they're doing.  It's going to be a test of patience to work our way through it.  I wouldn't do it for a one or two week vacation but since we're going for 5 weeks, it's worth it to us.  We'll quarantine if we have to and work our way through it.


I believe there are at least two rapid tests that ARE approved. Some use the phrase "rapid test" to refer to an antigen test. Those "rapid tests" are not approved. But there are two rapid tests that use the NAAT protocols, and those are approved. So what you really want to be sure of is that the test is using an amplified RNA test and not an antigen test.


----------



## JanT

Thank you so much csodjd for the clarification!  This really helps me in my quest to make sure we get the right test.  You have been such a wonderful source for information on this topic.  I'm truly grateful!



csodjd said:


> I believe there are at least two rapid tests that ARE approved. Some use the phrase "rapid test" to refer to an antigen test. Those "rapid tests" are not approved. But there are two rapid tests that use the NAAT protocols, and those are approved. So what you really want to be sure of is that the test is using an amplified RNA test and not an antigen test.


----------



## klpca

Looks like the mayor of Kauai is getting seriously cold feet about tourists. I didn't realize that the mayors could augment the requirements made by the governor, but I understand the reasoning. 









						Kawakami asks Ige to approve post-travel program - The Garden Island
					

LIHU‘E — Kauai County inched closer on Wednesday to a two-test system to detect COVID-19 infections once the state opens further to tourism on Oct. 15 as Mayor Derek S.K. Kawakami formally asked the governor’s office to approve a program to require a second test after visitors arrive on the island.




					www.thegardenisland.com


----------



## PearlCity

klpca said:


> Looks like the mayor of Kauai is getting seriously cold feet about tourists. I didn't realize that the mayors could augment the requirements made by the governor, but I understand the reasoning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kawakami asks Ige to approve post-travel program - The Garden Island
> 
> 
> LIHU‘E — Kauai County inched closer on Wednesday to a two-test system to detect COVID-19 infections once the state opens further to tourism on Oct. 15 as Mayor Derek S.K. Kawakami formally asked the governor’s office to approve a program to require a second test after visitors arrive on the island.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thegardenisland.com


The Mayor of Kauai has always been strictest of all the islands. He imposed curfews and their police was most proactive about quarantine enforcement. As a result hes gas almost no cases on island. As a result though they didnt have to shutdown again like oahu. They also have extremely limited hospital capacity there. He worked really hard for this. Its clear he sees holes in the governors plan. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## bnoble

I'm a bit confused on the current inter-island quarantine rule: is it imposed for Oahu->non-Oahu trips, or any flight originating on any island but landing at a non-Oahu destination?

We are contemplating a trip that starts in Kauai and moves to the Big Island. If I understand the rule correctly, the Big Island portion would be subject to quarantine even if we'd had a negative test before arriving on Kauai, but want to be sure.


----------



## ljmiii

bnoble said:


> I'm a bit confused on the current inter-island quarantine rule: is it imposed for Oahu->non-Oahu trips, or any flight originating on any island but landing at a non-Oahu destination?
> 
> We are contemplating a trip that starts in Kauai and moves to the Big Island. If I understand the rule correctly, the Big Island portion would be subject to quarantine even if we'd had a negative test before arriving on Kauai...


As things currently stand, yes you are correct. Quarantine is required for any inter-island trip that doesn't have O'ahu as its destination and there is no provision for avoiding that quarantine through a negative COVID-19 test.


----------



## Foggy1

klpca said:


> Looks like the mayor of Kauai is getting seriously cold feet about tourists. I didn't realize that the mayors could augment the requirements made by the governor, but I understand the reasoning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kawakami asks Ige to approve post-travel program - The Garden Island
> 
> 
> LIHU‘E — Kauai County inched closer on Wednesday to a two-test system to detect COVID-19 infections once the state opens further to tourism on Oct. 15 as Mayor Derek S.K. Kawakami formally asked the governor’s office to approve a program to require a second test after visitors arrive on the island.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thegardenisland.com


In a similar article yesterday in Hawaii News Now, the Maui Mayor echoed the idea of the second test 72 hours after arrival and a quarantine until the second test results were in.


----------



## jabberwocky

Foggy1 said:


> In a similar article yesterday in Hawaii News Now, the Maui Mayor echoed the idea of the second test 72 hours after arrival and a quarantine until the second test results were in.


They are really trying to kill their economy - aren't they? The whole point of a pre-test is to avoid quarantine.  If you have to do a pre-test, plus then quarantine for 3 days (possibly longer if the results are not rapid) - I just can't see why you would want to go to Hawaii under those conditions.


----------



## klpca

bnoble said:


> I'm a bit confused on the current inter-island quarantine rule: is it imposed for Oahu->non-Oahu trips, or any flight originating on any island but landing at a non-Oahu destination?
> 
> We are contemplating a trip that starts in Kauai and moves to the Big Island. If I understand the rule correctly, the Big Island portion would be subject to quarantine even if we'd had a negative test before arriving on Kauai, but want to be sure.



Here's a link (I think) to my post on the other thread. I agree that the interisland info has been confusing. I hope that this helps to clarify.



klpca said:


> Interisland travel is off the table through at least Oct 31 because of limited testing supplies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hawaii Travel Advisories & Restrictions
> 
> 
> Beginning March 26, 2022, domestic travelers to Hawaii will no longer need to fill out online forms via Safe Travels, no longer have to worry about QR codes, no longer have to provide proof of vaccination, and ultimately, there won't be any additional requirements or restrictions to fly to…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hawaii-guide.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interisland Travel Won’t Return Any Time Soon | Big Island Now
> 
> 
> If events unfold according to current plans, trans-Pacific travelers will return to the Hawaiian Islands with quarantine exemptions before the interisland quarantine is lifted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigislandnow.com


----------



## klpca

jabberwocky said:


> They are really trying to kill their economy - aren't they? The whole point of a pre-test is to avoid quarantine.  If you have to do a pre-test, plus then quarantine for 3 days (possibly longer if the results are not rapid) - I just can't see why you would want to go to Hawaii under those conditions.


While I understand their concerns I think that this is going to have long term ramifications for their economy. I feel really bad for people trying to survive economically on the island. And if a new relief package is passed I think that they will shut things down again. It's their sandbox, their rules, but I am having trouble seeing how this is going to work out in the long run.


----------



## lynne

Trans-Pacific travel: Ready for prime time? Kim says no - West Hawaii Today
					

With just two weeks remaining to get it all together, Hawaii’s pretest trans-Pacific travel plan is not ready for prime time, Mayor Harry Kim said Tuesday, a sentiment echoed by two recent travelers to the Big Island.




					www.westhawaiitoday.com


----------



## HGVC Lover

klpca said:


> Looks like the mayor of Kauai is getting seriously cold feet about tourists. I didn't realize that the mayors could augment the requirements made by the governor, but I understand the reasoning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kawakami asks Ige to approve post-travel program - The Garden Island
> 
> 
> LIHU‘E — Kauai County inched closer on Wednesday to a two-test system to detect COVID-19 infections once the state opens further to tourism on Oct. 15 as Mayor Derek S.K. Kawakami formally asked the governor’s office to approve a program to require a second test after visitors arrive on the island.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thegardenisland.com



Looks like the same for Harry Kim on the Big Island.....not comfortable with the Governor's plan.....Mayors are some of the most powerful politicians in the state.....https://www.westhawaiitoday.com/202...ific-travel-ready-for-prime-time-kim-says-no/


----------



## b2bailey

DeniseM said:


> Time out, boys!  This is the HAWAII Forum, not the Vaccine forum!
> 
> Any more Vaccine posts will be deleted!


Thank you Denise.


----------



## klpca

HGVC Lover said:


> Looks like the same for Harry Kim on the Big Island.....not comfortable with the Governor's plan.....Mayors are some of the most powerful politicians in the state.....https://www.westhawaiitoday.com/202...ific-travel-ready-for-prime-time-kim-says-no/


I am amazed at how much power they have! I had no idea that the individual mayors could essentially overturn the state's decision. I really just feel sorry for everyone trapped in these decisions. I know that we personally had a issue with covid/San Diego city govt/our rental property and it was so very frustrating to have our city leadership make decisions that directly affected our property rights and we couldn't do a thing about it. I have never felt more frustrated in my life. It has to be painful for the residents who haven't been able to work for months.


----------



## jabberwocky

klpca said:


> While I understand their concerns I think that this is going to have long term ramifications for their economy. I feel really bad for people trying to survive economically on the island. And if a new relief package is passed I think that they will shut things down again. It's their sandbox, their rules, but I am having trouble seeing how this is going to work out in the long run.


Agreed.  The problem with locking down is that as soon as you open up again to allow free movement, the spread of the disease will return.  The lock-down strategy is the only one that is guaranteed to fail both medically and economically in the long-run.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

Well,  our next Hawaii trip is scheduled for May..  I was considering booking a separate trip for Jan or Feb but think i will wait until after Hawaii is actually open, which hopefully is Oct 15th.   I am fine taking a pretravel test, but I am not interested in a 2nd test with a forced quarantine.  

Our original trip was set for two islands, but decided to simplify the trip to just the Big Island, and am planning to visit a different island on a separate trip.  That may ultimatly be more expensive, but avoids any issue with inter-island quarantine, as well easier to rebook if things go south...


----------



## csodjd

jabberwocky said:


> Agreed.  The problem with locking down is that as soon as you open up again to allow free movement, the spread of the disease will return.  The lock-down strategy is the only one that is guaranteed to fail both medically and economically in the long-run.


Generally agree. To me, the only effective strategy that gives the economy and residents a fair chance is a surgical lockdown approach. Science seems to agree that small indoor places are high risk. Bars and nightclubs are high risk. Large gatherings are high risk. Those things can be off-limits, while leaving lots of other things available with appropriate restrictions. For example, around here you can get your nails done... but only outside and with good separation from others. You can eat at a restaurant... but only outside with tables < 6, and separated. 

The fact is, Costco and supermarkets are open and they don't appear to be superspreaders. That means it can be done. 

If it were me I'd get the Gov., Lt. Gov., some medical experts, and all the Mayors into a (large well ventilated) room and not let them leave until they had a comprehensive plan for all the islands, with clear objective markers for when plans change. If 7-day ave cases per day goes above 125 on Oahu, this is what happens.... If Maui goes above 15, this is what happens.... Etc.


----------



## klpca

csodjd said:


> He said the will have all the details out at least 72 hours before Oct. 15.


Lol. Planning on going right up to the wire, I see. 

As if no one else will be dependent on the announcement. What if you have to make an appointment? What if they change their minds again? I'm not particularly worried for myself because we know that this may not happen, but what a hot mess.


----------



## HGVC Lover

csodjd said:


> Important new information coming right now from the Lt. Gov. press conference.  First two are key:
> 
> 1. Must get a NAAT test within 72 hrs of *DEPARTURE *to Hawaii.
> 2. Must get the test from one of their official testing "partners."
> 3. Under 5 doesn't need a test.
> 4. Cost is the traveler's responsibility.
> 5. Will accept the Abbott ID Now test, which is a rapid (< 15 minutes) test.
> 6. Expect to accept antigen tests down the road with a significant price drop once approved.
> 
> They currently have 12 official testing partners. Those partners will be encoding data into the Safe Travels app that allows the Hawaii officials to verify that the result is valid.
> 
> I missed the start so I don't have the list of partners but he mentioned Walmart, Kaiser, Quest, LabCorp, and CVS. He said the will have all the details out at least 72 hours before Oct. 15.



Seems like there are still a lot of moving parts on what might happen on October15, 2020.....

https://www.civilbeat.org/2020/10/w...te-objection-to-states-pre-travel-test-plans/


----------



## klpca

HGVC Lover said:


> Seems like there are still a lot of moving parts on what might happen on October15, 2020.....
> 
> https://www.civilbeat.org/2020/10/w...te-objection-to-states-pre-travel-test-plans/


Did you see this quote: _Requiring two or more tests will enable the tourist industry to “target higher-spending visitors in order to increase economic activity with lower impact on public health and the environment,” the resolution says._

I keep reading about this desire to target big spenders. For some reason it never sits right with me. It seems that the reason for two tests it that it self limits those who can't afford to travel there. Now, I can afford two tests but there's no way that we are sitting in our room for three days waiting for results so we won't come under those circumstances. I suspect that others will come to a similar conclusion. Who will come at all? Just because someone is "wealthy" enough afford two tests does not mean that they will jump through the rest of the hoops. I would say that this is a "careful what you wish for" situation.


----------



## HGVC Lover

klpca said:


> Did you see this quote: _Requiring two or more tests will enable the tourist industry to “target higher-spending visitors in order to increase economic activity with lower impact on public health and the environment,” the resolution says._
> 
> I keep reading about this desire to target big spenders. For some reason it never sits right with me. It seems that the reason for two tests it that it self limits those who can't afford to travel there. Now, I can afford two tests but there's no way that we are sitting in our room for three days waiting for results so we won't come under those circumstances. I suspect that others will come to a similar conclusion. Who will come at all? Just because someone is "wealthy" enough afford two tests does not mean that they will jump through the rest of the hoops. I would say that this is a "careful what you wish for" situation.



When we recently moved from in Kona after living there for many years it is the season for snowbirds to start arriving for the winter and I can see them be willing to pay.  Many of our local friends on Hi Island are not convinced the October 15 date will hold because inter-island air is not opening until October 31, 2020.  You also have the Kauai plan for resort bubbles in the works.  They say that locals are not excited about having visitors with Covid-19 going up in the majority of places on the mainland.   Aloha may not be as visible as in the past with the fear of illness.  Stay tuned.....it's Hawaii time....


----------



## rickandcindy23

klpca said:


> Did you see this quote: _Requiring two or more tests will enable the tourist industry to “target higher-spending visitors in order to increase economic activity with lower impact on public health and the environment,” the resolution says._
> 
> I keep reading about this desire to target big spenders. For some reason it never sits right with me. It seems that the reason for two tests it that it self limits those who can't afford to travel there. Now, I can afford two tests but there's no way that we are sitting in our room for three days waiting for results so we won't come under those circumstances. I suspect that others will come to a similar conclusion. Who will come at all? Just because someone is "wealthy" enough afford two tests does not mean that they will jump through the rest of the hoops. I would say that this is a "careful what you wish for" situation.


I would bet money that celebrities are not being blocked in any way from visiting the islands.  They aren't taking tests and not isolating themselves.  Maui's mayor would love for only hotel guests to visit the islands.  Forget the timeshare owners, who do not pay for 100% restaurant meals.


----------



## klpca

rickandcindy23 said:


> I would bet money that celebrities are not being blocked in any way from visiting the islands.  They aren't taking tests and not isolating themselves.  Maui's mayor would love for only hotel guests to visit the islands.  Forget the timeshare owners, who do not pay for 100% restaurant meals.


Just pay double the taxes.

It just reeks of elitism. What about newlyweds or someone who saves for 2 years to go there? It feels very icky to state that ability to spend is a consideration for travelers. Go ahead and raise taxes or prices and give everyone a chance to decide for themselves. 

At any rate I've never considered Hawaii to be a "budget" destination anyway. I'm surprised that they expect that the average traveler will spend more just to go to Hawaii. It will make other places suddenly more attractive.


----------



## csodjd

klpca said:


> Just pay double the taxes.
> 
> It just reeks of elitism. What about newlyweds or someone who saves for 2 years to go there? It feels very icky to state that ability to spend is a consideration for travelers. Go ahead and raise taxes or prices and give everyone a chance to decide for themselves.
> 
> At any rate I've never considered Hawaii to be a "budget" destination anyway. I'm surprised that they expect that the average traveler will spend more just to go to Hawaii. It will make other places suddenly more attractive.


It certainly would not be hard to impose a “COVID Emergency Tourism Tax” of 5% (or whatever) on hotels, rental cars, and things of that sort. But making Hawaii more expensive doesn’t necessarily increase the wealth of the average visitor. I know plenty of very wealthy people that wholly reject doing anything where they feel they are being overcharged. increased fees are effective at reducing numbers, not necessarily at changing the demographics.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> It certainly would not be hard to impose a “COVID Emergency Tourism Tax” of 5% (or whatever) on hotels, rental cars, and things of that sort. But making Hawaii more expensive doesn’t necessarily increase the wealth of the average visitor. I know plenty of very wealthy people that wholly reject doing anything where they feel they are being overcharged. increased fees are effective at reducing numbers, not necessarily at changing the demographics.



In my opinion Hawaii should be doing whatever they can to get tourists on a plane to land on their islands not put additional obstacles or costs in the way to prevent or discourage tourists from coming.  The testing before flying is a good safety measure that should have been developed and set up 3 months ago to open up Hawaii to tourists.  So now it looks like they might have finally gotten it set up to get tourists back in some reasonable numbers.  If they start implementing a second test when landing they will lose some possible tourists right away, and then they need to figure out how they will handle the second test.

If they do implement a second test when landing and someone tests positive are they going to trace and quarantine for 14 days all those that were on the plane?  (They would need to test the flight crew, who haven't had any restrictions in the past, as well as the passengers)  Furthermore, is the test is going to be immediate with a holding area for all the passengers until all the results are back?  If not, they would need to find and trace anyone on the plane and where they have gone since they landed and possibly spread the virus?  

In conclusion, if Hawaii continues to feel that safety is more important than the economy I can understand that but the current state of the economy in Hawaii will then continue to be what it is now so they need to accept that.  If they need more safety assurance before opening perhaps they need to wait until a vaccine is tested and approved before they open up.


----------



## HGVC Lover

"Roger" said:


> Caviat emptor -- I know nothing about this site as far as how reliable it is, but the claim is Kauai might have its own set of rules as Hawaii as a whole opens...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kauai Says Not So Fast On Hawaii's 'Quarantine Free' Travel Plans
> 
> 
> Kauai isn't going along with Hawaii's plans to allow travelers carrying a recent negative covid-19 test to skip quarantine and enjoy their trip immediately.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.godsavethepoints.com



Yes......each island can have it's own set of rules or additional rules.....that's what makes HI confusing at times.....


----------



## jabberwocky

Tamaradarann said:


> In my opinion Hawaii should be doing whatever they can to get tourists on a plane to land on their islands not put additional obstacles or costs in the way to prevent or discourage tourists from coming.  The testing before flying is a good safety measure that should have been developed and set up 3 months ago to open up Hawaii to tourists.  So now it looks like they might have finally gotten it set up to get tourists back in some reasonable numbers.  If they start implementing a second test when landing they will lose some possible tourists right away, and then they need to figure out how they will handle the second test.
> 
> If they do implement a second test when landing and someone tests positive are they going to trace and quarantine for 14 days all those that were on the plane?  (They would need to test the flight crew, who haven't had any restrictions in the past, as well as the passengers)  Furthermore, is the test is going to be immediate with a holding area for all the passengers until all the results are back?  If not, they would need to find and trace anyone on the plane and where they have gone since they landed and possibly spread the virus?
> 
> In conclusion, if Hawaii continues to feel that safety is more important than the economy I can understand that but the current state of the economy in Hawaii will then continue to be what it is now so they need to accept that.  If they need more safety assurance before opening perhaps they need to wait until a vaccine is tested and approved before they open up.


I agree with you.  The big puzzle for me in all of this is that we've been hearing from the Hawaii government that they can't do testing on arrival because they don't have the capacity. Now that test-on-departure is going ahead they want to do test-on-arrival as well.

This is incredibly frustrating for anyone who wants to plan a trip. I don't think those in charge realize the economic hara-kiri they are facing.


----------



## eyedude

I had a trip to Kauai 12/5 and Maui 12/12.  When they dropped the 14 day quarantine on 10/15, I was optimistic that the trip could possibly happen. When I started hearing chatter about a second test I had to rethink my plans.  I kept waiting to see what would happen and now that I am 60 days out I had to make a decision.  I decided to deposit my Waiohai week into II and trade for another week on Maui for 12/5.  There were just too many uncertainties with going to Kauai and then switching islands to Maui.  Even if the mayor of Maui is able to implement the need for a second test, I will still be able to enjoy the majority of my vacation without quarantine.  I do not think they will implement a second test because they do not have the capacity, but I just needed to remove some of the variables and moving parts.  If they implement a 14 day quarantine, we obviously will not go.  This will be our 25 year anniversary so it is extra special...we are hoping for the best.


----------



## echino

Any test has some rate of false positives. If it's just one person getting tested, the probability of getting a false positive is low. But let's say it's a family of 5 traveling, then the probability of at least 1 of 5 getting a false positive increases significantly. Now the whole trip has to be cancelled last minute.

What happens if there is a second test requirement 3 days after arrival? It means at least 3 days in quarantine, maybe more, while waiting for the results, which is already a no go for the majority of tourists. In addition, the second test increases the probability of a false positive even more.

Hawaii will not get tourists in any numbers meaningful for the economy if they implement the second test requirement.


----------



## csodjd

echino said:


> Any test has some rate of false positives. If it's just one person getting tested, the probability of getting a false positive is low. But let's say it's a family of 5 traveling, then the probability of at least 1 of 5 getting a false positive increases significantly. Now the whole trip has to be cancelled last minute.
> 
> What happens if there is a second test requirement 3 days after arrival? It means at least 3 days in quarantine, maybe more, while waiting for the results, which is already a no go for the majority of tourists. In addition, the second test increases the probability of a false positive even more.
> 
> Hawaii will not get tourists in any numbers meaningful for the economy if they implement the second test requirement.


The challenge of all testing, as Trump’s situation so clearly shows, is that there is a window between becoming infected and testing positive. If you are exposed on Monday, you will almost certainly test negative on Tuesday, and be contagious by Wednesday or Thursday, and may not show symptoms until about Saturday or so. The test doesn’t show positive until the virus gets into your cells, starts replicating, and you start shedding the virus. We don’t know if Trump was tested daily, but he very well may have and they just came up negative until Thursday night because that’s how long it takes, on average, to show up. 

As we plan to go to Hawaii in January our plan is to self-quarantine/isolate for 3-4 days before testing to help ensure that the test will be accurate by showing positive IF one of us was infected, because, while we want the negative test so we can go to Hawaii, we want it even more to ensure we don’t get sick after arriving in Hawaii. 

Where the testing IS helpful is in identifying the asymptomatic patient that’s had the infection already for a period of time.


----------



## klpca

csodjd said:


> The challenge of all testing, as Trump’s situation so clearly shows, is that there is a window between becoming infected and testing positive. If you are exposed on Monday, you will almost certainly test negative on Tuesday, and be contagious by Wednesday or Thursday, and may not show symptoms until about Saturday or so. The test doesn’t show positive until the virus gets into your cells, starts replicating, and you start shedding the virus. We don’t know if Trump was tested daily, but he very well may have and they just came up negative until Thursday night because that’s how long it takes, on average, to show up.
> 
> As we plan to go to Hawaii in January our plan is to self-quarantine/isolate for 3-4 days before testing to help ensure that the test will be accurate by showing positive IF one of us was infected, because, while we want the negative test so we can go to Hawaii, we want it even more to ensure we don’t get sick after arriving in Hawaii.
> 
> Where the testing IS helpful is in identifying the asymptomatic patient that’s had the infection already for a period of time.


Our plan is a 14 day home quarantine. But we're not going if there's any chance that we will have to quarantine in Hawaii so our decision hinges on the requirement for a second test.


----------



## TSPam

Just to let people know.....we traveled to Kauai on Friday from the mainland. At the time we didn’t know about needing two Different trips on the safe travels site. One from the mainland and the other from Honolulu to Lihue. A helpful arrivals checker fixed the QR code, showed us how to make the second one, and checked that our phone rang when he called us.
BUT, when we got to Lihue they made us fill out a Kauai arrival paper form and wouldn’t look at our QR code or do anything with it. We are quarantining at the Marriott’s Waiohai beach club and as required they didn’t give us keys and they have their staff bring us our food and packages.
The problem is that when we go to do our daily check ins on the safe travels site it says that the trip has not been entered into the the system because the QR code was not registered at the airport. Sigh.
I will try to call someone tomorrow. We are here for 4 weeks and are good with quarantining. It is beautiful here and we will work most days anyway. Then after two weeks we will do some tourist stuff. 
We are moving to the big island and are just hoping that by the time we are here for 4 weeks and then spend two weeks at Ko Olina the big island will have a better idea of what kind of inter island quarantine we will have to do. At the moment you must quarantine in a hotel or a 180 day or longer rental. We have a hotel booked but 2 weeks in a hotel room does not sound like fun and there are less rentals then usual....


----------



## Tamaradarann

echino said:


> Any test has some rate of false positives. If it's just one person getting tested, the probability of getting a false positive is low. But let's say it's a family of 5 traveling, then the probability of at least 1 of 5 getting a false positive increases significantly. Now the whole trip has to be cancelled last minute.
> 
> What happens if there is a second test requirement 3 days after arrival? It means at least 3 days in quarantine, maybe more, while waiting for the results, which is already a no go for the majority of tourists. In addition, the second test increases the probability of a false positive even more.
> 
> Hawaii will not get tourists in any numbers meaningful for the economy if they implement the second test requirement.



Some of what you said here echos what I posted yesterday about the concerns about a 2nd test on arrival.  However, you point out something that I didn't think of and address, the false positives.  You gave an example and stressed the implications for a family of five.   What are the implications for ALL those that are on the plane if someone gets off the plane with a false positive?


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> Some of what you said here echos what I posted yesterday about the concerns about a 2nd test on arrival.  However, you point out something that I didn't think of and address, the false positives.  You gave an example and stressed the implications for a family of five.   What are the implications for ALL those that are on the plane if someone gets off the plane with a false positive?


False positives in the RNA/DNA tests are rare, especially in someone that's not had COVID. And, of course, they don't implicate any health concerns or concern of spread. So it's an inconvenience. Anyone getting a positive would be well advised to test a second time (like Trump did, for instance) to confirm, if they have no reason to believe it's accurate (i.e., no symptoms, no known exposure to a person with COVID, no "risky" behavior in the prior 1-2 weeks). Most false positives have come from people that were retesting post-COVID and some elements of viral genetic material were picked up, or with antigen tests that are not quite as accurate.


----------



## HighAltitudeDude

Hopefully we will know the final decision soon https://www.khon2.com/coronavirus/h...debate-continues-decision-expected-this-week/


----------



## DannyTS

Regardless the reason, according to the New York Times the tests are too sensitive and they report 10 times more infected people than they should. 

*<In Massachusetts, from 85 to 90 percent of people who tested positive in July with a cycle threshold of 40 would have been deemed negative if the threshold were 30 cycles, Dr. Mina said. “I would say that none of those people should be contact-traced, not one,” he said. >*











						Your Coronavirus Test Is Positive. Maybe It Shouldn’t Be. (Published 2020)
					

The usual diagnostic tests may simply be too sensitive and too slow to contain the spread of the virus.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> Regardless the reason, according to the New York Times the tests are too sensitive and they report 10 times more infected people than they should.
> 
> *<In Massachusetts, from 85 to 90 percent of people who tested positive in July with a cycle threshold of 40 would have been deemed negative if the threshold were 30 cycles, Dr. Mina said. “I would say that none of those people should be contact-traced, not one,” he said. >*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your Coronavirus Test Is Positive. Maybe It Shouldn’t Be. (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> The usual diagnostic tests may simply be too sensitive and too slow to contain the spread of the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


That's not correct. The issue they raise is contagious, not infection. They assert that the sensitivity and yes-no nature of the tests results in people that are not able to spread the disease because their viral load is too low being flagged and treated as if they are contagious. 

"_But yes-no isn’t good enough, he added. It’s the amount of virus that should dictate the infected patient’s next steps. 'It’s really irresponsible, I think, to forgo the recognition that this is a quantitative issue,' Dr. Mina said. ... The PCR test amplifies genetic matter from the virus in cycles; the fewer cycles required, the greater the amount of virus, or viral load, in the sample. The greater the viral load, the more likely the patient is to be contagious._"

In other words, using "infected" as opposed to "contagious" as defining "positive" leads to treating some non-contagious people as if they are contagious.

From a public health/epidemic control standpoint, it seems to me its is safer to assume anyone with evidence of the virus in them is contagious, and be wrong by over-quarantining, rather than the converse, which results in failing to quarantine some that should have been because they WERE in fact contagious, especially at a point in time where there are no effective treatments. As treatments arise there is room to take more risk by increasing the number of false negatives.

There is also the rather notable problem that, as of now, nobody knows what viral load indicates contagious.


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> That's not correct. The issue they raise is contagious, not infection. They assert that the sensitivity and yes-no nature of the tests results in people that are not able to spread the disease because their viral load is too low being flagged and treated as if they are contagious.
> 
> "_But yes-no isn’t good enough, he added. It’s the amount of virus that should dictate the infected patient’s next steps. 'It’s really irresponsible, I think, to forgo the recognition that this is a quantitative issue,' Dr. Mina said. ... The PCR test amplifies genetic matter from the virus in cycles; the fewer cycles required, the greater the amount of virus, or viral load, in the sample. The greater the viral load, the more likely the patient is to be contagious._"
> 
> In other words, using "infected" as opposed to "contagious" as defining "positive" leads to treating some non-contagious people as if they are contagious.
> 
> From a public health/epidemic control standpoint, it seems to me its is safer to assume anyone with evidence of the virus in them is contagious, and be wrong by over-quarantining, rather than the converse, which results in failing to quarantine some that should have been because they WERE in fact contagious, especially at a point in time where there are no effective treatments. As treatments arise there is room to take more risk by increasing the number of false negatives.
> 
> There is also the rather notable problem that, as of now, nobody knows what viral load indicates contagious.


I understand what your point is but this is not what Dr. Michael Mina, an epidemiologist at  Harvard said. According to him, these people should not be quarantined, contact traced etc. Here is my layman interpretation. If you had a mild case of Covid 3 months ago or were completely asymptomatic and you were never tested, if you have a cold now and get tested for Covid you have a good chance of getting a positive result. That cannot be right and it is very relevant in the context of this thread because a lot of people will not be let in even if they put nobody in danger.


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> I understand what your point is but this is not what Dr. Michael Mina, an epidemiologist at  Harvard said. According to him, these people should not be quarantined, contact traced etc. Here is my layman interpretation. If you had a mild case of Covid 3 months ago or were completely asymptomatic and you were never tested, if you have a cold now and get tested for Covid you have a good chance of getting a positive result. That cannot be right and it is very relevant in the context of this thread because a lot of people will not be let in even if they put nobody in danger.


You would have A chance, but what you mean by a "good" chance I don't know. Highest false positive rates in studies have been in the 5% area. I've not seen a study of, say, 100 people that had confirmed COVID 3 months earlier to see how many test positive today using various test modalities. It would be interesting information.


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> You would have A chance, but what you mean by a "good" chance I don't know. Highest false positive rates in studies have been in the 5% area. I've not seen a study of, say, 100 people that had confirmed COVID 3 months earlier to see how many test positive today using various test modalities. It would be interesting information.


The false positives of 5% were measured by using the same tests and methods so they mean nothing in this context. You say 5%, they say if you only did 33 reiterations, you would  eliminate 90% of those that tested positive so you clearly have a very different view than these specialists.


----------



## melissy123

This is good news!









						As tourism’s relaunch nears, details of traveler testing program still being hammered out
					

The Hawaii Tourism Authority says the state risks jeopardizing its image if the relaunch is pushed back again.




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com
				




Hawaii’s lieutenant governor on Monday dismissed calls from county leaders calling for stricter protocols before the state implements its pre-travel testing program next week, saying many of their concerns ― including those surrounding inter-island travel ― were ‘fear-based.’


----------



## critterchick

HGVC Lover said:


> Yes......each island can have it's own set of rules or additional rules.....that's what makes HI confusing at times.....



I thought that Mayor Kawakami asked Ige to approve the second test. I  took it to mean that he can't impose it unilaterally.


----------



## csodjd

New cases in Hawaii appear to be falling. Save for one day, where there was a cluster in Hawaii County, the number of new cases has gone down over each of the past six days with 69 yesterday and 52 today (though there were far fewer tests on Sunday). Positivity at 2.6% for the past week. The 7-day average new cases is at 94.


----------



## cman

critterchick said:


> I thought that Mayor Kawakami asked Ige to approve the second test. I  took it to mean that he can't impose it unilaterally.


Correct. Ige is expected to decide on the mayor's requests later this week. Kauai has ordered 15k rapid test kits and Maui has ordered 30k. I doubt that they would have done so without some assurance that their request for an additional arrival request would be approved. If the mayor's proposals are approved, those going for a 7 day vacation will have to be confined to the resort for the first 3 days of their trip. That's ridiculous. They may as well just stay closed. The lack of pushback from the locals with regard to these additional requirements, gives me the impression that the locals are fine with the reduction of tourism.


----------



## HGVC Lover

cman said:


> The lack of pushback from the locals with regard to these additional requirements, gives me the impression that the locals are fine with the reduction of tourism.



I believe you are correct.....our family and local friends living on the Big Island are not really missing tourists......they have the island mostly to themselves and are enjoying it that way....many tourism jobs are low paying and most locals do not work in tourism.....


----------



## csodjd

cman said:


> Correct. Ige is expected to decide on the mayor's requests later this week. Kauai has ordered 15k rapid test kits and Maui has ordered 30k. I doubt that they would have done so without some assurance that their request for an additional arrival request would be approved. If the mayor's proposals are approved, those going for a 7 day vacation will have to be confined to the resort for the first 3 days of their trip. That's ridiculous. They may as well just stay closed. The lack of pushback from the locals with regard to these additional requirements, gives me the impression that the locals are fine with the reduction of tourism.


I just read that the Governor denied the request by Kauai for an arrival test. The Mayor said they will look to utilize their 15k rapid tests in another way to help control the virus on the island.


----------



## cman

This is getting more confusing by the day.








						Big Island opts out of pre-travel testing program
					

Hawaii island Mayor Harry Kim said he is opting out of the state’s pre-travel testing program starting on Oct. 15, which means mainland visitors going to the Big Island still will be required to quarantine for 14 days.




					www.staradvertiser.com


----------



## HGVC Lover

cman said:


> This is getting more confusing by the day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Island opts out of pre-travel testing program
> 
> 
> Hawaii island Mayor Harry Kim said he is opting out of the state’s pre-travel testing program starting on Oct. 15, which means mainland visitors going to the Big Island still will be required to quarantine for 14 days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.staradvertiser.com



It is only getting started.....there is more to come....that's is one of the reasons why 50% of all people who move to Hawaii move back from where they came in the first 3 years....they cannot get use to how it is done in Hawaii...


----------



## ljmiii

cman said:


> This is getting more confusing by the day.


IMHO, not so much confusing as tragic. Gov. Ige, Lt. Gov Green, and the Hawaiian Mayors are being forced to steer between Scylla and Charybdis. If Hawaii was an independent country like Aruba it could erect a quarantine barrier that affected all incoming travelers, set mandatory testing and quarantine rules for nations and US states that differ based on COVID-19 infection rates, set its own unemployment and travel industry relief policies, etc. But it's not so it can't.

It has been at least six months that I first said I do not envy Gov. Ige his choices. I still don't.


----------



## csodjd

ljmiii said:


> IMHO, not so much confusing as tragic. Gov. Ige, Lt. Gov Green, and the Hawaiian Mayors are being forced to steer between Scylla and Charybdis. If Hawaii was an independent country like Aruba it could erect a quarantine barrier that affected all incoming travelers, set mandatory testing and quarantine rules for nations and US states that differ based on COVID-19 infection rates, set its own unemployment and travel industry relief policies, etc. But it's not so it can't.
> 
> It has been at least six months that I first said I do not envy Gov. Ige his choices. I still don't.


They are working hard to try and figure out how to limit or come as close as possible to eliminating the introduction of new infections from travelers. While a worthy tactic and goal, zero isn't a plausible or realistic outcome. Even if nobody gets into Hawaii carrying the virus (also not realistic), just the addition of more people onto the islands will likely increase the spread.

I only hope behind the scenes they are also working hard to expand the capacity of Hawaii's medical system to manage and care for a higher number of cases. And in between those two, improving the testing and contact tracing capabilities.


----------



## PearlCity

cman said:


> This is getting more confusing by the day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Island opts out of pre-travel testing program
> 
> 
> Hawaii island Mayor Harry Kim said he is opting out of the state’s pre-travel testing program starting on Oct. 15, which means mainland visitors going to the Big Island still will be required to quarantine for 14 days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.staradvertiser.com


Oh my what a mess. I live on oahu and im confused. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## ljmiii

csodjd said:


> I only hope behind the scenes they are also working hard to expand the capacity of Hawaii's medical system to manage and care for a higher number of cases.


Hey...good news for a change!





						The Queen's Health Systems Completes Construction of New Infectious Disease Unit at The Queen's Medical Center - Punchbowl - News Story
					






					www.queens.org


----------



## klpca

PearlCity said:


> Oh my what a mess. I live on oahu and im confused.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


That makes me feel better because I am so confused.


----------



## csodjd

klpca said:


> That makes me feel better because I am so confused.


I think I have it. Starting Oct 15, you can come from outside Hawaii to anywhere but the Big Island with no quarantine by testing negative ahead of time. But you can't go from Oahu to the other islands and cannot go to the Big Island at all without a 14-day quarantine. 

I wonder if you can go from Oahu to, say, Maui, via LAX, with a one night stay in Los Angeles (where you get tested), and avoid quarantine in Maui?


----------



## klpca

csodjd said:


> I think I have it. Starting Oct 15, you can come from outside Hawaii to anywhere but the Big Island with no quarantine by testing negative ahead of time. But you can't go from Oahu to the other islands and cannot go to the Big Island at all without a 14-day quarantine.
> 
> I wonder if you can go from Oahu to, say, Maui, via LAX, with a one night stay in Los Angeles (where you get tested), and avoid quarantine in Maui?


I am confused about if/when/how the mayors can override the governor. I figure that I have a bit of time before we have to decide. We are supposed to be starting on Kauai then onto Oahu unless one of the mayors nixes the plan.


----------



## PearlCity

klpca said:


> I am confused about if/when/how the mayors can override the governor. I figure that I have a bit of time before we have to decide. We are supposed to be starting on Kauai then onto Oahu unless one of the mayors nixes the plan.


Its because the governor said that he wont approve a second test but then said mayors can opt out if they dont like it. I dont think he thought mayors actually would. But the big island mayor already didnt get reelected, and hes getting older so he doesn't really care about political popularity and opted out. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## PearlCity

csodjd said:


> I think I have it. Starting Oct 15, you can come from outside Hawaii to anywhere but the Big Island with no quarantine by testing negative ahead of time. But you can't go from Oahu to the other islands and cannot go to the Big Island at all without a 14-day quarantine.
> 
> I wonder if you can go from Oahu to, say, Maui, via LAX, with a one night stay in Los Angeles (where you get tested), and avoid quarantine in Maui?


Ha probably but you have to quarantine until you get results. That is interesting! 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> False positives in the RNA/DNA tests are rare, especially in someone that's not had COVID. And, of course, they don't implicate any health concerns or concern of spread. So it's an inconvenience. Anyone getting a positive would be well advised to test a second time (like Trump did, for instance) to confirm, if they have no reason to believe it's accurate (i.e., no symptoms, no known exposure to a person with COVID, no "risky" behavior in the prior 1-2 weeks). Most false positives have come from people that were retesting post-COVID and some elements of viral genetic material were picked up, or with antigen tests that are not quite as accurate.



Ok, it seems everyone is confused about whether or not the mayors will implement a second Covid test when people land on their island.  It seems like the 2 most major islands, Oahu and Maui, will not be implementing a second test.  However, if the island of Hawaii and/or Kauai do implement a second test for flights from the Continental US or a neighbor island how will they deal with all the passengers and crew on the plane where someone on the plane tests postive.  I would assume if they are having a second test it will be for all passengers and crew on the plane since crew can be just as contagious as a passenger.  By the way does anyone know if military and crew are going to be required to be tested starting October 15th?


----------



## klpca

Tamaradarann said:


> Ok, it seems everyone is confused about whether or not the mayors will implement a second Covid test when people land on their island.  It seems like the 2 most major islands, Oahu and Maui, will not be implementing a second test.  However, if the island of Hawaii and/or Kauai do implement a second test for flights from the Continental US or a neighbor island how will they deal with all the passengers and crew on the plane where someone on the plane tests postive.  I would assume if they are having a second test it will be for all passengers and crew on the plane since crew can be just as contagious as a passenger.  By the way does anyone know if military and crew are going to be required to be tested starting October 15th?


Ige has already turned down the second test for Kauai so so now we just wait to see if Kauai opts out. https://www.thegardenisland.com/202...-denies-countys-proposed-second-test-program/

On a personal level I just want to know because we are planning to quarantine for two full weeks at home before we travel and I would hate to quarantine for nothing.


----------



## Tamaradarann

klpca said:


> Ige has already turned down the second test for Kauai so so now we just wait to see if Kauai opts out. https://www.thegardenisland.com/202...-denies-countys-proposed-second-test-program/
> 
> On a personal level I just want to know because we are planning to quarantine for two full weeks at home before we travel and I would hate to quarantine for nothing.



The article says that Kauai doesn't know what it will do.  However, it is still unstated with all the emphasis on testing and/or quarantining passengers coming to Hawaii what will be done to address the members of the military and crew that come/return for all the islands.  Do they have to be tested or quarantined?


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> The article says that Kauai doesn't know what it will do.  However, it is still unstated with all the emphasis on testing and/or quarantining passengers coming to Hawaii what will be done to address the members of the military and crew that come/return for all the islands.  Do they have to be tested or quarantined?


I believe Kauai has not reported a single new case in the last 7 days. If that‘s their bar, they will have to join the Big Island and opt out of allowing anyone onto the island without a mandatory 14-day quarantine, virtually assuring the end of their tourism industry and turning it into a residents-only island.


----------



## MULTIZ321

Hawaii Shuts Down Kauai's Plan To Quarantine And Double Test Travelers.










						Hawaii Shuts Down Kauai's Plan To Quarantine And Double Test Travelers
					

Hawaii's Governor has officially shot down Kauai's request to add secondary testing and quarantine for arrivals onto the island. Visitors will still need...




					www.godsavethepoints.com
				





Richard


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

My next trip to Hawaii that is actually booked is for the Big Island, but that's not until May.  Hopefully things will have settled down by then,.

Actually my best hope right now, is that the Oct 15 launch sticks, and that there is not an alarming rise in cases on the Islands that do participate as as a result of increasing tourism.


----------



## ljmiii

Meanwhile....there's still a lot of money floating around O'ahu. I wonder how much of this pricing surge is driven by O'ahuians and how much is from mainlanders deciding now is the time to move to Hawaii. I did find an article from Jan 8, 2020 which reports Hawaii's chief economist told lawmakers that 24% of Hawaiian homes are purchased by buyers from outside the state...but found nothing from the past two months with that data.









						Oahu home prices surge to second consecutive monthly record
					

Reduced inventory and exceptional demand for bigger homes in September helped set a new price record in Oahu’s housing market that shattered a prior record from a month earlier.



					www.staradvertiser.com


----------



## csodjd

ljmiii said:


> Meanwhile....there's still a lot of money floating around O'ahu. I wonder how much of this pricing surge is driven by O'ahuians and how much is from mainlanders deciding now is the time to move to Hawaii. I did find an article from Jan 8, 2020 which reports Hawaii's chief economist told lawmakers that 24% of Hawaiian homes are purchased by buyers from outside the state...but found nothing from the past two months with that data.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oahu home prices surge to second consecutive monthly record
> 
> 
> Reduced inventory and exceptional demand for bigger homes in September helped set a new price record in Oahu’s housing market that shattered a prior record from a month earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> www.staradvertiser.com


I think people are hoping that Washington will forget Hawaii is part of the US, or even that it exists, and they can move there and just hide.


----------



## fernow

cman said:


> Big Island opts out of pre-travel testing program
> 
> 
> Hawaii island Mayor Harry Kim said he is opting out of the state’s pre-travel testing program starting on Oct. 15, which means mainland visitors going to the Big Island still will be required to quarantine for 14 days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.staradvertiser.com


Anyone know if that plan is for sure?  Have a trip in early Dec and definitely will not go under those restrictions.  Leaves us with very little time to cancel and plan something else.  Why in the world didn't the mayor opt out when the plan was first put in place for Aug 1/Sept1/Oct1/Oct15 ???  I understand Kauai is taking a similar stance.  True?


----------



## flindberg

MULTIZ321 said:


> Hawaii Shuts Down Kauai's Plan To Quarantine And Double Test Travelers.
> 
> Thank you! Article was a helpful overview. We're just begining to pay attention. Our trip is not until early February (Kona to visit family & friends) then Kauai (to chill for 2 weeks)... AND - It could all change again - at any time. Also appreciate the link from controller1 https://www.gohawaii.com/travel-requirements


----------



## lynne

Post-Arrival Surveillance Testing of Tourists Won’t Carry Quarantine Penalties | Big Island Now
					

Lt. Governor Josh Green announced a plan to create a post-arrival surveillance testing program that will attempt to test 10% of visitors each day to paint at a clear picture of how effective the pre-travel tests are at weeding out positive COVID cases.




					bigislandnow.com
				




As of now, Big Island will opt out of the program and still require a 14 day quarantine.  The mayor is hoping to develop a two test program which will require approval by the governor.


----------



## Tamaradarann

lynne said:


> Post-Arrival Surveillance Testing of Tourists Won’t Carry Quarantine Penalties | Big Island Now
> 
> 
> Lt. Governor Josh Green announced a plan to create a post-arrival surveillance testing program that will attempt to test 10% of visitors each day to paint at a clear picture of how effective the pre-travel tests are at weeding out positive COVID cases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigislandnow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As of now, Big Island will opt out of the program and still require a 14 day quarantine.  The mayor is hoping to develop a two test program which will require approval by the governor.





ljmiii said:


> Meanwhile....there's still a lot of money floating around O'ahu. I wonder how much of this pricing surge is driven by O'ahuians and how much is from mainlanders deciding now is the time to move to Hawaii. I did find an article from Jan 8, 2020 which reports Hawaii's chief economist told lawmakers that 24% of Hawaiian homes are purchased by buyers from outside the state...but found nothing from the past two months with that data.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oahu home prices surge to second consecutive monthly record
> 
> 
> Reduced inventory and exceptional demand for bigger homes in September helped set a new price record in Oahu’s housing market that shattered a prior record from a month earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> www.staradvertiser.com



Since the increase in pricing has been with high end properties I would think that it is from investors, could be off on island or off, that are taking advantage of the lower prices for properties and buying up stuff.  I wonder what percentage of the homes over a million dollars are purchased by buyers from outside of the state?  With the Hawaii econony being so bad the lower and middle income people are certainly not buying up high end properties.  Hawaii doesn't have many good paying jobs.  But real estate investing and renting is a big business.  So if you can buy say a million dollar piece of property for $800,000 or 20% off, (property taxes in Hawaii are so low that on this property they would be about $2000/year) wait a couple of years or so and sell it at rebounded prices you have made a nice profit.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

lynne said:


> Post-Arrival Surveillance Testing of Tourists Won’t Carry Quarantine Penalties | Big Island Now
> 
> 
> Lt. Governor Josh Green announced a plan to create a post-arrival surveillance testing program that will attempt to test 10% of visitors each day to paint at a clear picture of how effective the pre-travel tests are at weeding out positive COVID cases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigislandnow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As of now, Big Island will opt out of the program and still require a 14 day quarantine.  The mayor is hoping to develop a two test program which will require approval by the governor.



Personally i would most likely be willing to participate in a second test as long as the location was too far out of the way, and was not forced into quarantine while i was waiting for the results.  That is just too big of a penalty to impose on a vacation for something that might happen..

The plan announced by the Lt Gov seems reasonable to me, at least as i understand it.


----------



## samara64

Got this today from Wyndham


Hawaii is officially reopening for personal travel. And we can’t wait to welcome you to paradise soon. As you prepare for your upcoming trip, please be aware that the government of Hawaii has announced new requirements for travelers. Please review the requirements below before you depart for your upcoming vacation at Club Wyndham at Waikiki Beach Walk. 
All travelers arriving by air must have written confirmation of a negative molecular COVID-19 test that has been administered no more than 72 hours prior to arrival in Hawaii. Rapid test and antibody test results will not be accepted.
Travelers will not be able to check-in at the resort without the required confirmation of negative test results.
Travelers who are unable to provide confirmation of a negative molecular COVID-19 test that has been administered no more than 72 hours prior to their arrival to Hawaii will be required to quarantine up to 14 days at a state approved facility.
If required to quarantine, travelers will not be able to check in to the property per state requirement and will be responsible for any related expenses that may be incurred.
 If you are not able to meet the negative molecular COVID-19 test result requirements, you can cancel your reservation online with no penalty.

Club Wyndham is committed to the heath and comfort of its owners, guests, and associates, and will follow all guidelines according to the Government of Hawaii Executive Order.

As the government continues to evolve policies governing personal travel to and between the Hawaii islands, please ensure you stay up-to-date on the latest at https://health.hawaii.gov

We look forward to welcoming you soon.

Club Wyndham at Waikiki Beach Walk


----------



## TXTortoise

Travelers will not be able to check-in at the resort without the required confirmation of negative test results.

Is Club Wyndham a timeshare?  This implies owners cannot quarantine in their owned unit, as has been done by a few folks at two Marriott resorts over the past months.


----------



## PearlCity

TXTortoise said:


> Travelers will not be able to check-in at the resort without the required confirmation of negative test results.
> 
> Is Club Wyndham a timeshare? This implies owners cannot quarantine in their owned unit, as has been done by a few folks at two Marriott resorts over the past months.


It might be that Wyndham just doesn't want to deal with enforcement of quarantine. I imagine this may end up being the policy at many Hawaii hotels and resorts soon.

Previously it was easy to track. 14 days from arrival and you're done. Now its 14 days if you didnt test or until results come in. I imagine thats a tracking nightmare. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## amy241

TXTortoise said:


> Travelers will not be able to check-in at the resort without the required confirmation of negative test results.
> 
> Is Club Wyndham a timeshare?  This implies owners cannot quarantine in their owned unit, as has been done by a few folks at two Marriott resorts over the past months.



And how can they deny you access to property you own?


----------



## MULTIZ321

If You Want to Visit Hawaii and Skip Quarantine, There Are New Rules You Need to Know 










						If You Want to Visit Hawaii and Skip Quarantine, There Are New Rules You Need to Know
					

Starting Oct. 15, all travelers heading to Hawaii who choose not to quarantine for two weeks upon arrival must present proof of a negative COVID-19 test taken within 72 hours of departure. This week Hawaii Gov. David Ige announced that only tests from "trusted partners" including airlines and...




					www.travelandleisure.com
				





Richard


----------



## HGVC Lover

lynne said:


> Big Island will have a 2 test program:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kim reaches agreement with Ige on COVID testing for travelers - Hawaii Tribune-Herald
> 
> 
> Mayor Harry Kim said this afternoon he’s reached agreement with Gov. David Ige on a deal that would allow the county to administer a rapid-response COVID-19 antigen test to arriving out-of-state passengers at Ellison Onizuka Kona International Airport at Keahole starting Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hawaiitribune-herald.com



The logistics just seem staggering for the arriving passengers at KOA starting October 15, 2020. 

First, you have to show proof of your 72 hour prior negative test, then get your luggage (I guess), then somehow go to the 2nd testing center for the second test (will they be transporting all of these passengers in the little shuttles with their luggage), and then get transportation or a rental car before even leaving the airport. 

The UA SFO and UA LAX flights usually arrive within 45 minutes of each other so it is just hard to see how this is just not going to be an overwhelming frustrating and long experience for the visitor.  They say it will take 15 to 45 mixtures so I would say at least triple that time. 

Glad we are not going until end of December and hopefully the potential arrival mess will be worked out by then.  I know i am being optimistic having lived there and knowing how it does not take much to back things up at KOA for passengers.


----------



## amy241

HGVC Lover said:


> The logistics just seem staggering for the arriving passengers at KOA starting October 15, 2020.
> 
> First, you have to show proof of your 72 hour prior negative test, then get your luggage (I guess), then somehow go to the 2nd testing center for the second test (will they be transporting all of these passengers in the little shuttles with their luggage), and then get transportation or a rental car before even leaving the airport.
> 
> The UA SFO and UA LAX flights usually arrive within 45 minutes of each other so it is just hard to see how this is just not going to be an overwhelming frustrating and long experience for the visitor.  They say it will take 15 to 45 mixtures so I would say at least triple that time.
> 
> Glad we are not going until end of December and hopefully the potential arrival mess will be worked out by then.  I know i am being optimistic having lived there and knowing how it does not take much to back things up at KOA for passengers.



I thought the same thing - it is getting ridiculous. That’s just what I want to do is be transported from the KOA airport across the street to stand inline with all my luggage to wait for a second test at the “testing facility.”


----------



## csodjd

So the big Island will require a 2nd test, a rapid Antigen test, upon arrival. Assuming you have your NAAT/PCR test 2-3 days before departure, they are saying that they want two tests a couple days apart to make false negatives far less likely, as it will. 

I think it is unnecessary IF they are going to continue to require appropriate use of a face mask, social distancing, and other ordinary precautions (bars closed, no big gatherings, esp indoors), and engage in contact tracing. The basic pre-departure NAAT test will catch and remove most asymptomatic carriers. Not all. Some will be infected but not yet show positive. But, the risk of those individuals leading to community spread is addressed by the precautions required and expected after arrival. Spread occurs from failure to use a mask, failure to respect social distancing, etc. Spikes occur from failure to contact trace. Masks and social distancing are necessary because we don't know if someone is contagious. If we do know, then they are not necessary.

So, if they are going to go to the 2nd test requirement, then those that have passed two tests 3 or so days apart should not be required to wear a mask if they choose not to and should be allowed to dine indoors and gather in groups, again, if they choose to. 

It is IMO overkill to require two tests AND the full range of precautions. You should not be subject to citations, fines, arrest for not wearing a mask or not socially distancing if you have proven you are not infected via multiple tests days apart.


----------



## PearlCity

Except that locals are the one that are spreading it now on both the big island and Oahu. So even if tourists are negative then it doesn't stop asymptomatic locals who arent being tested from spreading it-and as such the lt governor is pushing for a state wide mask requirement subject to fine. 

What i also dont understand fully is what happens to tourists with 2nd test that tests positive? 



Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## HGVC Lover

amy241 said:


> I thought the same thing - it is getting ridiculous. That’s just what I want to do is be transported from the KOA airport across the street to stand inline with all my luggage to wait for a second test at the “testing facility.”



I was just figuring it out and the article said a test could be done in 15 minutes (that's not Hawaiian time) and if they had 10 people being tested every 15 minutes (assuming they have 10 machines in use at once) that would be 40 people an hour and if the passenger load on a UA flight was 160 passenger that would take a minimum of 4 hours to process that one plane load alone.....would love to know how they really plan on doing this effectively for the visitors......i doubt that has been thought through yet.....


----------



## klpca

HGVC Lover said:


> I was just figuring it out and the article said a test could be done in 15 minutes (that's not Hawaiian time) and if they had 10 people being tested every 15 minutes (assuming they have 10 machines in use at once) that would be 40 people an hour and if the passenger load on a UA flight was 160 passenger that would take a minimum of 4 hours to process that one plane load alone.....would love to know how they really plan on doing this effectively for the visitors......i doubt that has been thought through yet.....


Maybe that's the point. Make it so uncomfortable for the tourists that they opt themselves out of the process and go somewhere else. The end result is the same - fewer people coming to the island.


----------



## lynne

HGVC Lover said:


> The logistics just seem staggering for the arriving passengers at KOA starting October 15, 2020.
> 
> First, you have to show proof of your 72 hour prior negative test, then get your luggage (I guess), then somehow go to the 2nd testing center for the second test (will they be transporting all of these passengers in the little shuttles with their luggage), and then get transportation or a rental car before even leaving the airport.
> 
> The UA SFO and UA LAX flights usually arrive within 45 minutes of each other so it is just hard to see how this is just not going to be an overwhelming frustrating and long experience for the visitor.  They say it will take 15 to 45 mixtures so I would say at least triple that time.
> 
> Glad we are not going until end of December and hopefully the potential arrival mess will be worked out by then.  I know i am being optimistic having lived there and knowing how it does not take much to back things up at KOA for passengers.



The testing would be directly across from the terminal at the site of the original car rental pick up.   Before the rental car pick up was moved up the road requiring a shuttle, the rental cars were picked up within the commuter parking lot.  The small rental buildings still exist so my guess is that this is where the testing would take place.  I would guess that you can get tested and then go back across the street to pick up your luggage since the luggage takes awhile to get to the carousel.


----------



## amy241

lynne said:


> The testing would be directly across from the terminal at the site of the original car rental pick up.   Before the rental car pick up was moved up the road requiring a shuttle, the rental cars were picked up within the commuter parking lot.  The small rental buildings still exist so my guess is that this is where the testing would take place.  I would guess that you can get tested and then go back across the street to pick up your luggage since the luggage takes awhile to get to the carousel.


I would not want to leave my luggage unattended that long. I had a group of early 20 year olds attempt to steal my bag at the OGG rental car facility last year. I couldn’t believe it. I went into the car rental desk to get in line because I was the driver doing the leasing. The shuttle driver was still unloading bags. I assumed my mother or husband would grab it for me. When I came back outside, my bag was no where to be found. I stopped the shuttle who was just departing and he said he had unloaded all bags. As I scanned the crowd I discovered the group who had attempted to hide my bag by placing all their bags around it. They were trying to conceal it. I hollered “That’s my bag!” and grabbed it and pulled it out of their pile.I was shocked that someone had attempted to actually steal my bag.


----------



## b2bailey

Noticed a change to the Safe Travels website when I did my check-in this morning -- a new category called "Travel documents" It says to enter photo, test results, itinerary. It was encouraging to see they aren't waiting until the last minute for implementation.


----------



## lynne

amy241 said:


> I would not want to leave my luggage unattended that long. I had a group of early 20 year olds attempt to steal my bag at the OGG rental car facility last year. I couldn’t believe it. I went into the car rental desk to get in line because I was the driver doing the leasing. The shuttle driver was still unloading bags. I assumed my mother or husband would grab it for me. When I came back outside, my bag was no where to be found. I stopped the shuttle who was just departing and he said he had unloaded all bags. As I scanned the crowd I discovered the group who had attempted to hide my bag by placing all their bags around it. They were trying to conceal it. I hollered “That’s my bag!” and grabbed it and pulled it out of their pile.I was shocked that someone had attempted to actually steal my bag.


That is a very unfortunate story about luggage thieves.  I certainly understand your position with no kuleana from some fellow passengers.


----------



## ljmiii

csodjd said:


> It is IMO overkill to require two tests AND the full range of precautions. You should not be subject to citations, fines, arrest for not wearing a mask or not socially distancing if you have proven you are not infected via multiple tests days apart.


Why? You can be infected on the flight, at HNL, at KOA or ITO, or afterward on the Big Island. Masks are going to be with us in public settings until we have widespread distribution and administration of an effective COVID vaccine.


----------



## Tamaradarann

PearlCity said:


> Except that locals are the one that are spreading it now on both the big island and Oahu. So even if tourists are negative then it doesn't stop asymptomatic locals who arent being tested from spreading it-and as such the lt governor is pushing for a state wide mask requirement subject to fine.
> 
> What i also dont understand fully is what happens to tourists with 2nd test that tests positive?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk



That is a good questions but for me it begs a further question.  What happens to all those that have been in contact with that tourist that tests positive;  all the passengers and crew?


----------



## ljmiii

PearlCity said:


> What I also don't understand fully is what happens to tourists with 2nd test that tests positive?


The article says that if the quick test is positive they require you take a PCR test and then quarantine until they get the results (later that day or overnight).

No idea if a positive result on the PCR test requires further quarantine or a return to the mainland. Or what happens if only one person in a family has a positive PCR test. Or if they let you pick up a rental car, take an Uber, or drive you to your place of quarantine.  Or many other details.


----------



## klpca

Tamaradarann said:


> That is a good questions but for me it begs a further question.  What happens to all those that have been in contact with that tourist that tests positive;  all the passengers and crew?


Not much unless people aren't wearing masks. It's not a perfect solution but it's the best we have until we get a vaccine. Actually I, as a passenger, am more concerned about the crew who haven't been tested than the other passengers who were tested before they got on the plane. But thats a risk that I have chosen to accept.


----------



## ljmiii

Tamaradarann said:


> That is a good questions but for me it begs a further question.  What happens to all those that have been in contact with that tourist that tests positive;  all the passengers and crew?


Great question. CovidActNow estimates that Hawaii has only about 16% of the COVID tracers that they need to track positives and notify those with whom they've come into contact.





__





						U.S. COVID Risk & Vaccine Tracker
					

Covid Act Now has real-time tracking of your community's COVID risk level. Explore how Hawaii is doing.




					covidactnow.org


----------



## Kapolei

there is a Ko olina controversy - the resort is saying Lagoon 1 -3 will be for tourist, Lagoon 4 for locals and residents of the resort.  The city has cited Ko olina for not opening up public parking ... the residents in the resort aren’t happy because they have had access to the lagoons now they will be in 4 with other locals ... I will be a local and staying at the resort ... so I am going to cross contaminate everyone and everything ... with the aloha spirit


----------



## klpca

Kapolei said:


> there is a Ko olina controversy - the resort is saying Lagoon 1 -3 will be for tourist, Lagoon 4 for locals and residents of the resort.  The city has cited Ko olina for not opening up public parking ... the residents in the resort aren’t happy because they have had access to the lagoons now they will be in 4 with other locals ... I will be a local and staying at the resort ... so I am going to cross contaminate everyone and everything ... with the aloha spirit


When we opened up for tourists I was honestly pretty uncomfortable. We opened up right as Arizona had their big outbreak and when the city was full of AZ plates and lots of folks weren't wearing masks it was frustrating as we wanted to open up more businesses and couldn't afford to go backwards in our case numbers. But it seems like between having most people wear masks plus social distancing, we've continued to make progress. Other counties in the state haven't fared as well, so we are frequently a tourist destination since our numbers are good. It doesn't bother me quite as much now as it did in June. It will be an adjustment for everyone to see tourists. At least yours have been tested. We get anyone who can drive here and there's nothing that we can do about it.


----------



## csodjd

ljmiii said:


> Why? You can be infected on the flight, at HNL, at KOA or ITO, or afterward on the Big Island. Masks are going to be with us in public settings until we have widespread distribution and administration of an effective COVID vaccine.


You have to wear a mask on the flight, so that's not an issue. Plus, you've not had that 2nd test yet, so the risk of false negative is still lingering. The ONLY reason for a 2nd test requirement at the airport upon arrival is to catch the false negatives (that primarily arise from being tested too soon after exposure). With two tests 3 or so days apart, there is pretty small risk you're actually infected. Even the CDC says, for a person WITH COVID, once they have two negative tests 24 hours apart they aren't contagious anymore. 

My point is that the 2nd test adds almost nothing if masks and other precautions are in place and used. Almost nothing except creating a strong disincentive to go there.


----------



## csodjd

PearlCity said:


> What i also dont understand fully is what happens to tourists with 2nd test that tests positive?


I believe they said the test would be repeated with a NAAT/PCR test and you'd have to quarantine until that comes back (couple days). If it is negative you're good to go. If not, quarantine. 

Recall that the 2nd test is not NAAT, it is antigen. Here is what Harvard says about antigen tests: 

_What about accuracy? _ The reported rate of false negative results is as high as 50%, which is why antigen tests are not favored by the FDA as a single test for active infection. However, the FDA recently provided emergency use authorization for a more accurate antigen test. Because antigen testing is quicker, less expensive, and requires less complex technology to perform than molecular testing, some experts recommend repeated antigen testing as a reasonable strategy. According to one test manufacturer, the false positive rate of antigen testing is near zero. So, the recent experience of Ohio Governor Mike DeWine, who apparently had a false-positive result from an antigen test, is rare. 



			https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/which-test-is-best-for-covid-19-2020081020734


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> That is a good questions but for me it begs a further question.  What happens to all those that have been in contact with that tourist that tests positive;  all the passengers and crew?


They only contact trace when you've had extended or close exposure. Certainly the person you're sitting next to. But the crew has only brief passing exposure. 

Keep in mind, however, that flights to Hawaii will be safer than flights almost anywhere else. Few things will be 100% COVID safe, perhaps for years, or ever. Perhaps the treatment protocol that appears to have worked for Trump will become a mainstay, and even a bad COVID situation will be treatable. That's really going to be necessary, because a vaccine in the best of worlds is not the complete solution. You'll still have a risk of getting COVID, albeit a lower risk. I don't see the Holy Grail as a vaccine, I see it as an effective treatment.


----------



## PearlCity

csodjd said:


> I believe they said the test would be repeated with a NAAT/PCR test and you'd have to quarantine until that comes back (couple days). If it is negative you're good to go. If not, quarantine.
> 
> Recall that the 2nd test is not NAAT, it is antigen. Here is what Harvard says about antigen tests:
> 
> _What about accuracy? _ The reported rate of false negative results is as high as 50%, which is why antigen tests are not favored by the FDA as a single test for active infection. However, the FDA recently provided emergency use authorization for a more accurate antigen test. Because antigen testing is quicker, less expensive, and requires less complex technology to perform than molecular testing, some experts recommend repeated antigen testing as a reasonable strategy. According to one test manufacturer, the false positive rate of antigen testing is near zero. So, the recent experience of Ohio Governor Mike DeWine, who apparently had a false-positive result from an antigen test, is rare.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/which-test-is-best-for-covid-19-2020081020734


I guess my point is is there a plan to put people who are positive in a designated location? I live here in hawaii and im not hearing of any such plan. A 2nd test accurate or in accurate does nothing wo a plan. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## ljmiii

csodjd said:


> Keep in mind, however, that flights to Hawaii will be safer than flights almost anywhere else...


I don't think that's true.  Prolonged exposure in a confined space is COVID's preferred breeding ground and there are no domestic flights more prolonged than those from the East Coast to Hawaii - BOS to HNL is *the* longest domestic flight. And there are certain aircraft facilities you can't avoid using on a 12 hour flight.

If you mean people travelling to Hawaii are likely to be from places that have COVID better contained...maybe? I don't want to be on a flight to/from Brazil...but other than that the US is pretty solidly in 2nd place. And states that only a few weeks ago were hot spots (like AZ and TX) are doing much better while other states (like ND and WI) are doing far worse. Who knows what states will have COVID contained in Q1 and Q2 of 2021?



csodjd said:


> Few things will be 100% COVID safe...


Of that there is little doubt...though there is always the chance that SARS-CoV-2 will follow SARS-CoV-1 into oblivion after a few years.

In the meantime I expect that in public I'll wear a mask and socially distance for the foreseeable future. I expect I'll get a COVID-19 vaccine shot (or two)...followed by another more effect vaccine a few months to a year later. I expect that we will layover in CA when we fly to/from Hawaii next year. 

But I desperately hope (and are planning) to visit multiple islands in 2021 after our 2020 Hawaiian vacation crashed and burned.


----------



## ljmiii

PearlCity said:


> I guess my point is is there a plan to put people who are positive in a designated location? I live here in hawaii and im not hearing of any such plan. A 2nd test accurate or in accurate does nothing wo a plan.


To my knowledge, they expect you to quarantine in your stated destination.

Hawaii has toyed with the idea of 'Quarantine Hotels' since April - the Hawaii Convention Center was floated as a possible location. Back then the Hawaii Attorney General Clare Connors warned the Hawaii Senate Special Committee on COVID-19 that ankle bracelets, 24 hour GPS monitoring, and guarded designated locations might be necessary to enforce the 14-day quarantine. But nothing really came of it.


----------



## PearlCity

ljmiii said:


> To my knowledge, they expect you to quarantine in your stated destination.
> 
> Hawaii has toyed with the idea of 'Quarantine Hotels' since April - the Hawaii Convention Center was floated as a possible location. Back then the Hawaii Attorney General Clare Connors warned the Hawaii Senate Special Committee on COVID-19 that ankle bracelets, 24 hour GPS monitoring, and guarded designated locations might be necessary to enforce the 14-day quarantine. But nothing really came of it.


Yup. And the big island had the least enforcement of all the islands. Kauai was the strictest. But what about hotels and timeshares that are now stating you cannot check in wo a negative test. Its going to be a mess. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## csodjd

ljmiii said:


> I don't think that's true. Prolonged exposure in a confined space is COVID's preferred breeding ground and there are no domestic flights more prolonged than those from the East Coast to Hawaii - BOS to HNL is *the* longest domestic flight. And there are certain aircraft facilities you can't avoid using on a 12 hour flight.


I don‘t care about any of that... every person on the flight will have been tested for COVID before boarding the flight. Comparing apples to apples, that makes it safer than a flight that may be full of people with active asymptomatic infections irrespective of the length of the flight. I’ll take my chances on a flight full of pre-tested passengers over one without.  

Analytically, if you assume a 4% surveillance infection rate, and a 1-4% false negative rate in pre-flight NAAT testing, there may be one person per every 3-4 flights with an infection. If you assume ONLY the 4% surveillance rate (no pre-flight testing), all other things being equal, you may have about 10 infected people on each flight. I like the former more than the latter, again, irrespective of the flight length.


----------



## csodjd

ljmiii said:


> But I desperately hope (and are planning) to visit multiple islands in 2021 after our 2020 Hawaiian vacation crashed and burned.


We’ve got trips scheduled for Jan-Feb and Mar-Apr time periods. But our real “on edge“ is a week in Ireland followed by a Viking river cruise on the Danube scheduled for June (rescheduled from Sept. 2020). So, hopefully, we’ll have some trustworthy vaccine options by ~ April, and Europe will have their act together.


----------



## lynne

csodjd said:


> *I don‘t care about any of that... every person on the flight will have been tested for COVID before boarding the flight.* Comparing apples to apples, that makes it safer than a flight that may be full of people with active asymptomatic infections irrespective of the length of the flight. I’ll take my chances on a flight full of pre-tested passengers over one without.
> 
> Analytically, if you assume a 4% surveillance infection rate, and a 1-4% false negative rate in pre-flight NAAT testing, there may be one person per every 3-4 flights with an infection. If you assume ONLY the 4% surveillance rate (no pre-flight testing), all other things being equal, you may have about 10 infected people on each flight. I like the former more than the latter, again, irrespective of the flight length.


It would be wonderful if that was a true statement, however, the testing is not mandatory and those passengers who determine that they will not take the test and are subject to the 14 day quarantine will put everyone at risk.  As stated previously, enforcement on the Big Island is almost non-existent.  I think many of these people consider breaking quarantine a sport.  The cluster issue at the University of Nations in Kona had the largest outbreak as they allowed students to arrive from the mainland and not quarantine resulting in a school and community outbreak.  Not only did some of these students not stay at their location, a few boarded flights to Oahu to go shopping.


----------



## PearlCity

lynne said:


> It would be wonderful if that was a true statement, however, the testing is not mandatory and those passengers who determine that they will not take the test and are subject to the 14 day quarantine will put everyone at risk. As stated previously, enforcement on the Big Island is almost non-existent. I think many of these people consider breaking quarantine a sport. The cluster issue at the University of Nations in Kona had the largest outbreak as they allowed students to arrive from the mainland and not quarantine resulting in a school and community outbreak. Not only did some of these students not stay at their location, a few boarded flights to Oahu to go shopping.


Yup . This is 100 percent the concern of most Hawaii residents. If all passengers were required to be testes before boarding the plane there would be much less concern on our end. But its not required. And its giving those that do test a false sense of security that the flight is safe. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## HGVC Lover

lynne said:


> The testing would be directly across from the terminal at the site of the original car rental pick up.   Before the rental car pick up was moved up the road requiring a shuttle, the rental cars were picked up within the commuter parking lot.  The small rental buildings still exist so my guess is that this is where the testing would take place.  I would guess that you can get tested and then go back across the street to pick up your luggage since the luggage takes awhile to get to the carousel.



Sounds simple but it will be a log jam....no way they will be able to process people quickly....get ready to fly on a crammed plane....wait for luggage...go across the street and wait in the open with hundreds of others to be tested...then after doing that catch a crammed shuttle to rental cars...and then wait in line there....this Is KOA...not a major airline terminal like Singapore...IMHO it is going to take hours for most after landing....


----------



## klpca

PearlCity said:


> Yup . This is 100 percent the concern of most Hawaii residents. If all passengers were required to be testes before boarding the plane there would be much less concern on our end. But its not required. And its giving those that do test a false sense of security that the flight is safe.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


Try living someplace where anyone can visit, no test, no quarantine. Then the visitors refuse to wear masks. Living in a tourist destination is not all it's cracked up to be.


----------



## Tamaradarann

PearlCity said:


> Yup . This is 100 percent the concern of most Hawaii residents. If all passengers were required to be testes before boarding the plane there would be much less concern on our end. But its not required. And its giving those that do test a false sense of security that the flight is safe.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


Your thought about requiring ALL passenger to be required to be tested would be great, but Hawaii as a State and not the Federal Government can't dictate that.  That is why I have been advocating the publisizing and instituting a law that anyone who doesn't get tested with a negative result before the flight will be Escorted to a Guarded Quarantine Facility for the 14 days of Quarantine.  No one will want to endure that so everyone will be tested before hand or not come and that is what you want.


----------



## flindberg

Tamaradarann said:


> Your thought about requiring ALL passenger to be required to be tested would be great, but Hawaii as a State and not the Federal Government can't dictate that.  That is why I have been advocating the publisizing and instituting a law that anyone who doesn't get tested with a negative result before the flight will be Escorted to a Guarded Quarantine Facility for the 14 days of Quarantine.  No one will want to endure that so everyone will be tested before hand or not come and that is what you want.


That would probably do the trick alright. I live in a tourist destination and it is nerve-wracking watching local 'essential' businesses fill up with out-of-towners who, as stated, make a sport out of not wearing a mask (dangling below the chin appears popular). We had great #'s so Gov opened up hotels, restaurants, the borders - 2 months later we have crises level #'s. Most are from surrounding states with high C-19 #'s. Just saying there are no EASY solutions. It's going to be ongoing change for the foreseeable future. One deep breath after another is about all I can do, that and watch & wait.


----------



## csodjd

lynne said:


> It would be wonderful if that was a true statement, however, the testing is not mandatory and those passengers who determine that they will not take the test and are subject to the 14 day quarantine will put everyone at risk.  As stated previously, enforcement on the Big Island is almost non-existent.  I think many of these people consider breaking quarantine a sport.  The cluster issue at the University of Nations in Kona had the largest outbreak as they allowed students to arrive from the mainland and not quarantine resulting in a school and community outbreak.  Not only did some of these students not stay at their location, a few boarded flights to Oahu to go shopping.


Yes, that is true and my comment is inaccurate to that extent. However, I don't expect many to come over and be subject to a 14-day quarantine when all the need is a test. But, beyond that, if we assume 10% of the travelers are not tested beforehand and intend to quarantine, that's about 25 on a plane, but with surveillance rates at 4%, that means if that 25 is a random sample, that's one person. But travelers to Hawaii are not a random sample. The highest risk people out there for infection, those working in low-wage jobs that can't work from home, factory workers, farm workers, etc., the workers that make up a disproportionate number of the cases, aren't really hopping on a plane to Maui at the first opening of Hawaii. 

So with a pre-test requirement, I don't think travelers are going to present an existential or substantial threat to the residents. I understand the fear, but the math doesn't justify it. The residents themselves, spreading it among themselves in the community, are more of a threat.


----------



## csodjd

HGVC Lover said:


> Sounds simple but it will be a log jam....no way they will be able to process people quickly....get ready to fly on a crammed plane....wait for luggage...go across the street and wait in the open with hundreds of others to be tested...then after doing that catch a crammed shuttle to rental cars...and then wait in line there....this Is KOA...not a major airline terminal like Singapore...IMHO it is going to take hours for most after landing....


Yes, it has all the hallmarks of a cluster-**** at the airport if going to the Big Island.


----------



## csodjd

I'd like to see the airlines have a fare for tested flyers and a higher fare (and restricted seats, like the old smoking section) for those that have not been tested.


----------



## csodjd

Here's the most up-to-date case graph for Hawaii. What seems notable to me is that July 4 was bad and resulted in a lot of cases spreading in the community. Reimposing strict rules was effective at containing the spread and bringing the case rate down, but a plateau has been reached that, for whatever reason, the state can't get under. Perhaps it's due to inadequate contact tracing, or people being uncooperative with tracing,

The Lt. Gov. has said his target is staying below 150 (14-day moving average). This shows the 7-day, but it appears the 14-day would be about the same. 

Given the relative stability of the case count over the past month it should be easy to tell what impact opening to tourism will have. However, it also shows that it will be about Nov. 7-10 before it starts showing up.


----------



## ljmiii

csodjd said:


> Here's the most up-to-date case graph for Hawaii...


Sigh. And as the virus is again brought under control on O'ahu, the Big Island becomes a new hot spot.  Still, Hawaii is doing better than most states - only NH, VT, and ME have fewer new cases per capita.


----------



## HGVC Lover

csodjd said:


> Yes, it has all the hallmarks of a cluster-**** at the airport if going to the Big Island.



Hopefully we will start hearing reports from people on their way to the HGVC's at Waikoloa on Thursday October 15th of how their KOA experience went with the 72 hour prior to travel test and then the second test at KOA.  I hope all goes well.


----------



## csodjd

HGVC Lover said:


> Hopefully we will start hearing reports from people on their way to the HGVC's at Waikoloa on Thursday October 15th of how their KOA experience went with the 72 hour prior to travel test and then the second test at KOA.  I hope all goes well.


Given the reported inaccuracy of the antigen tests when used for screening, it's hard to imagine it going all that well.


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## amycurl

> What happens to all those that have been in contact with that tourist that tests positive; all the passengers and crew?


What they do every place else--get tested themselves, and quarantine until they get the results. This is the whole point of contact tracing. This is how it works to stop spread.


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## cman

csodjd said:


> Given the reported inaccuracy of the antigen tests when used for screening, it's hard to imagine it going all that well.


Here's the test that they're using. Per the manufacturer, they're pretty accurate. However, I read somewhere that there were problems with false positives at some nursing homes last month;


			https://www.bdveritor.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Simplify_Covid-19_InfoGraphic_560-US-0720_082520.pdf


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## csodjd

cman said:


> Here's the test that they're using. Per the manufacturer, they're pretty accurate. However, I read somewhere that there were problems with false positives at some nursing homes last month;
> 
> 
> https://www.bdveritor.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Simplify_Covid-19_InfoGraphic_560-US-0720_082520.pdf


Read the fine print. The accuracy footnote says, "The intended use of the BD Veritor System for Rapid Detection of SARS-CoV-2 assay only includes those who are suspected of 
COVID-19 by their health care provider within the first five days of the onset of symptoms."

That's where antigen tests work best, symptomatic patients when viral load is high. They are far less effective for asymptomatic patients that may be infected but don't have viral load yet, and they can produce a lot of false positives post-infection.


----------



## cman

csodjd said:


> Read the fine print. The accuracy footnote says, "The intended use of the BD Veritor System for Rapid Detection of SARS-CoV-2 assay only includes those who are suspected of
> COVID-19 by their health care provider within the first five days of the onset of symptoms."
> 
> That's where antigen tests work best, symptomatic patients when viral load is high. They are far less effective for asymptomatic patients that may be infected but don't have viral load yet, and they can produce a lot of false positives post-infection.


Dude, I'm just giving you the info on the test that they're using. I'm not trying to prove a point.


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## csodjd

cman said:


> Dude, I'm just giving you the info on the test that they're using. I'm not trying to prove a point.


It wasn't a personal attack. No need to be so defensive. It was just a comment on the information in the PDF you provided. If one looks closely at it, it looks like amazing test results. Not so much when you read the fine print and then consider how they intend to use it. False positives, in particular, can ruin one's trip to the Big Island in a hurry.


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## magmue

This is not an ideal test for screening asymptomatic people - it's the same problem the White House ran into using this kind of test to screen visitors and staff as an alternative to following CDC guidelines.

If you really read the information they give, the test will work well, in a community where about 1 out of 10 folks are infected and you're testing people who are having some symptoms.

Test results will be much less accurate if you are testing "normal" people trying to find the ones who are carrying the virus, are contagious, and don't know it yet.


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## HGVC Lover

csodjd said:


> Yes, it has all the hallmarks of a cluster-**** at the airport if going to the Big Island.



Things are still uncertain for KOA on Thursday.....

https://www.westhawaiitoday.com/202...continues-to-surround-traveler-testing-plans/


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## csodjd

HGVC Lover said:


> Things are still uncertain for KOA on Thursday.....
> 
> https://www.westhawaiitoday.com/202...continues-to-surround-traveler-testing-plans/


Gotta love this quote, "“We’re all trying to find a way to address the interisland travel quarantine,” Kim said. “Hopefully next week, we’ll have a plan for that we’ll be able to share.”


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## DannyTS

lynne said:


> Hawaii County
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Island Establishes Passenger Arrival Testing Procedures
> 
> 
> 2nd test upon arrival to Hawai’i Island will provide an extra layer of protection for our community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigislandgazette.com


A traveler's dream.


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## BJRSanDiego

I read in another link that as of late today Hawaii announced that it will be allowing interisland travel between Oahu, Maui County and Kauai linked to a Covid test.  It starts on the 15th of October.  I'm sure more news will follow.

Here is a link:   https://www.khon2.com/local-news/wa...esting-program-set-to-launch-thursday-oct-15/


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## fernow

Most people on this forum appear to be afraid of the virus.  Realistic?  Maybe so.  Who knows.  Seems more to do with people's politics then any real data but we are all aware of confirmation bias and that " A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."  All forums have a tendency to migrate towards a single point of view.  The way of the internet.

What I wish I could know is how the general population of Hawaii feels.  Rich retired people got theirs and would prefer no Hawaii visitors.  People getting green government checks have no reason to want outsiders on their beaches.  How do the people in the middle feel?

If you ask a girl for a date and she can't go because that's the night she does her hair, you can ask about another night or you can get the message.

Much as I love Hawaii and though it is my OPINION the virus should not stop society from functioning, IF the people of Hawaii don't want visitors then I see no reason to go.

Aloha Spirit is part of the enjoyment. If it's gone...  But, maybe the middle class of Hawaii wants travelers back.

I hope we will be seeing trip reports (attempting to reflect how it is instead of furthering the politics) letting us know what the "new normal" is.  Geez I hate that phrase.

Wonder if it's too late to sell my timeshare...


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## chellej

One of my coworker's family lives on Maui and she says they would rather people don't come....they are afraid of the medical system getting overwhelmed and not being able to get treatment if needed.


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## echino

In my opinion, those in Hawaii who depend on tourists to earn a living - they mostly want tourists to come. Others mostly don't want tourists to come. Regardless of covid.


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## 1Kflyerguy

It disappointing and confusing to have to the process testing after you arrive different for each island..  But i guess the situation is different on each island.  I am just hoping everything settles down and process for each island goes smoothly after a few days.  Ideally none of the islands will see a big spike tied to tourists.


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## ljmiii

fernow said:


> What I wish I could know is how the general population of Hawaii feels.  Rich retired people got theirs and would prefer no Hawaii visitors.  People getting green government checks have no reason to want outsiders on their beaches.  How do the people in the middle feel?


The people I know on O'ahu don't really care about tourists - they just want COVID-19 to be contained in Hawaii so they can live their lives and go back to work normally. And on the mainland so they can once again see their friends and family. But that is anecdotal.

As for more concrete numbers I haven't seen a recent poll. One done in the summer during the resurgence of COVID-19 on the mainland, showed Hawaiians turning sharply against tourism in the face of the pandemic. 81% of residents said they do not want tourists from the mainland. And a staggering 88% wanted the COVID-19 restrictions such as the 14-day quarantine for out-of-state passengers to remain in place for the foreseeable future.

My personal opinion is that this attitude varies significantly by island. O'ahu can make do without tourism - the economy is sufficiently diverse to allow O'ahuians to get by. Not thrive...but get by. On the Big Island, Kona side is hurting but Hilo - the county seat - has four times the population of Kailua-Kona and doesn't see a lot of tourists anyway. Maui is in a world of hurt because Big Ag has left the island and the island is very dependent on tourism. Kauai is somewhere in between. In short, most of the people of Hawaii would rather do without tourism than risk letting Auntie die.

It will be interesting to see what happens.


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## PearlCity

Oahu Resident here- the main concern is #of ICU beds according to the article below Kauai has 9, Maui 29 and Hawaii Island 24. So. I can see the concern. We do have more beds here on Oahu, but medical staff is a concern- during our recent spike, we were starting to fly in medical personnel due to increase jn cases and ambulances were not being accepted at all hospitals









						Are Hawaii Hospitals Prepared For A Pandemic?
					

The state health director says Hawaii's hospitals are already near capacity, with expansion difficult.




					www.civilbeat.org
				




Most of the state is split- no one wants grandma or aunty to die because of reopening at the same time the state put all their eggs in one basket for the economy to operate ans people need to get back to work. 





Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## dannybaker

Well we rebooked our  3 November weeks to May. We have three weeks reserved for the KoOlina.


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## csodjd

PearlCity said:


> Oahu Resident here- the main concern is #of ICU beds according to the article below Kauai has 9, Maui 29 and Hawaii Island 24. So. I can see the concern. We do have more beds here on Oahu, but medical staff is a concern- during our recent spike, we were starting to fly in medical personnel due to increase jn cases and ambulances were not being accepted at all hospitals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are Hawaii Hospitals Prepared For A Pandemic?
> 
> 
> The state health director says Hawaii's hospitals are already near capacity, with expansion difficult.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.civilbeat.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the state is split- no one wants grandma or aunty to die because of reopening at the same time the state put all their eggs in one basket for the economy to operate ans people need to get back to work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


Using Hawaii Island as an example, that 24 means roughly 500-1000 new cases. If they are picking up some 20 or so cases a day, do the math. It is more fear than reality.


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## PearlCity

csodjd said:


> Using Hawaii Island as an example, that 24 means roughly 500-1000 new cases. If they are picking up some 20 or so cases a day, do the math. It is more fear than reality.


While it may be fear thats the general feeling of the people here. Under nornal circumstances most big island, kauai and Maui residents fly to Oahu for major medical procedures and more complex care. I have a relative that lives full time there but they kept their studio on Oahu because one of them needs to come to Oahu regularly for medical care. The people who live on the "outer islands" just dont feel comfortable. Unrealistic fear or not thats the general feeling among many residents. 



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## fernow

Maybe someone going to the islands soon (anyone?) should start a Trip Reports Post Covid thread.  

Personal experiences would be nice to hear.  We have an early Dec trip planned and in a week or two I plan to call a few places we frequent in Hawaii and try to get a “feel”, then make the go/no go decision.

Makes me sad to feel unwanted in a place we love and have traveled to frequently. But there are other nice places too.

Seriously makes me wonder about the value and viability of my Hawaii Timeshares though.  This whole thing is turning out to be more about people and attitudes towards risk vs freedom then the virus.  And there is no vaccine for that.


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## csodjd

I was just reading that they are expecting 7,000 today. Not exactly a soft opening!


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## NTP66

One of our MOC weeks matched last night (II), for late June 2021, but I returned it because of all of the uncertainty around... everything.


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## HGVC Lover

DannyTS said:


> A traveler's dream.



We should start getting reports today on the arrival process at KOA.  They have 7 direct flights from mainland arriving today.  Stay tuned.....


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## amy241

This article mentions there may be protests on Kauai over visitor arrivals.. It also mentions some are getting T-shirts printed on Oahu that state: “Aloha. Go Home. You’re killing us.”

I think the hostility toward mainlanders has always been present but was not as obvious as it is today. I think the pandemic has really ratcheted it up. It sort of smacks of reverse discrimination. I was unaware it was as bad as it is but since the pandemic began I have been reading public comments to articles in Hawaii online newspapers and was shocked and dismayed to read what they say about tourists. 









						Residents are conflicted about the return of visitors under Hawaii’s pre-travel testing program
					

The first tourists to travel in Hawaii who don’t have to quarantine start arriving today, but they are coming to a state that’s divided over their return.




					www.staradvertiser.com


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## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> I was just reading that they are expecting 7,000 today. Not exactly a soft opening!



I read that Mayor Caldwell has annouced that timely pre-boarding testing is difficult to obtain in some locations that in the future there were plans to  allow for post arrival testing of passengers from the Continental United States for those that didn't get tested before boarding and didn't want to quarantine.   I am totally against the implementation of this type of plan.  First of all I wouldn't want to be a passenger on a plane with untested people who could have the virus and passed it on to me. (To prevent that from happening I have mentioned a number of times that my plan would be to escort untested arrivals to a guarded quarantine quarters for the 14 day period so that since no one would want to endure that, everyone would get pre-tested)  Second, while passengers that need to be tested must wait at the airport until the results are obtained to clear them, if they did infect anyone on the plane those fellow travelers are now out and about in Hawaii possibly passing the virus to others in the community.  

The Hawaii Community already has mixed feelings about opening up Hawaii to pre-tested travellers.  Implementing this plan just might put them over the top with respect to tourists coming at all.


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## controller1

Tamaradarann said:


> I am totally against the implementation of this type of plan.  First of all I wouldn't want to be a passenger on a plane with untested people who could have the virus and passed it on to me.



Not being on a plane with untested people is only valid for direct flights to Hawaii. Multi-segment flights will not provide that protection as there will be passengers traveling to non-Hawaii destinations on those flights.


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## chellej

amy241 said:


> This article mentions there may be protests on Kauai over visitor arrivals.. It also mentions some are getting T-shirts printed on Oahu that state: “Aloha. Go Home. You’re killing us.”
> 
> I think the hostility toward mainlanders has always been present but was not as obvious as it is today. I think the pandemic has really ratcheted it up. It sort of smacks of reverse discrimination. I was unaware it was as bad as it is but since the pandemic began I have been reading public comments to articles in Hawaii online newspapers and was shocked and dismayed to read what they say about tourists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Residents are conflicted about the return of visitors under Hawaii’s pre-travel testing program
> 
> 
> The first tourists to travel in Hawaii who don’t have to quarantine start arriving today, but they are coming to a state that’s divided over their return.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.staradvertiser.com




I don't feel this is uncommon for many tourist areas, not just Hawaii... we used to live near Jackon Wyoming and the locals didn't like tourists and if you moved there often were treated as an outsider.  I'm sure it true of many areas with a high number of tourists.


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## b2bailey

amy241 said:


> This article mentions there may be protests on Kauai over visitor arrivals.. It also mentions some are getting T-shirts printed on Oahu that state: “Aloha. Go Home. You’re killing us.”
> 
> I think the hostility toward mainlanders has always been present but was not as obvious as it is today. I think the pandemic has really ratcheted it up. It sort of smacks of reverse discrimination. I was unaware it was as bad as it is but since the pandemic began I have been reading public comments to articles in Hawaii online newspapers and was shocked and dismayed to read what they say about tourists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Residents are conflicted about the return of visitors under Hawaii’s pre-travel testing program
> 
> 
> The first tourists to travel in Hawaii who don’t have to quarantine start arriving today, but they are coming to a state that’s divided over their return.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.staradvertiser.com


When I arrived at OGG (Maui) on 10/17 my taxi driver was a former manager for Hertz. She mentioned she knows people who do not want tourists to return.  Most are employed in non-tourist segments, or have family money.

I think the average Mauian may have enjoyed the break, but realizes tourism is what puts food on the table.


----------



## PearlCity

I dont believe that what you see in the media is the majority- its a vocal minority. And reality of lack of employment is only starting to set in. That being said ive seen nasty on both sides on travel boards that have come out due to the pandemic. People are just stressed and want normal again. A good amount of locals enjoy working with tourists and showing aloha. I dont think that is going to change. 

There is a lot of frustration with how the state government has handled things and residents need to concentrate their efforts there. Lack of a plan and how things have been handled has not been good. Up until a week ago- we were welcoming tourists with a testing program but still requirung folks with in Maui County to quarantine for travel between Lanai, Molokai and Maui. Crazy stuff like that. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## Calyn79

For those anxious and booking flights/accommodation/cars for Kauai, note what I copy below....this is current as of today - Oct 15/20. Reaching Tier 2 will bring back the 2-wk quarantine and the opt out of pre-travel testing.

copied  - "The Mayor’s Emergency Rule 19, or the 4-tier system, dictates when businesses and activities are allowed to operate, and in what capacity, supersedes past rules. With zero active cases, the county starts out on Tier 4, which is marked by a less than 1% positivity rate. The 72-hour, pre-travel test program allowed. 

Tier 3, begins to limit indoor and outdoor gatherings when the county sees a one-week average of two to four cases. By Tier 2, which is met at a one-week average of daily COVID-19 cases between five to eight, the county opts out of the pre-travel testing program the two-week quarantine will be required for all travelers. Tier 1 goes into effect when there’s a one-week average of eight or more cases per day reported on the island. No pre-testing quarantine exemptions will be allowed. Here, retail and faith-based services will drop to 25% capacity; restaurants may only operate with outdoor seating and take out; and gyms will be closed, among other restrictions.

For the county to lax the rules, it must be on the current tier for at least four consecutive weeks; meet case count criteria for the next tier for two weeks; and also meet the test positive rate criteria for the next tier for two consecutive weeks, according to the county. For the jump to the next most restrictive tier, the county must exceed one or both criteria in the current tier for two weeks. The county reserves the right to implement additional restrictions not outlined currently in shorter timeframes than two weeks, if the health care system becomes overwhelmed.

Within this rule is also a requirement for wearing face masks, stating that those over 5 years old must wear masks within 6 feet of non-household members. The rule makes “limited exceptions” to those issued exemptions from a medical doctor, doctor of osteopathy, advanced nurse practitioner, or a physician assistant.

The county’s proposal for a mandatory post-arrival test to bypass the quarantine was denied by Gov. David Ige last week. However, the county was given the green-light for a voluntary second test to be taken three after arrival. With visitor industry partners and the Kaua‘i Chamber of Commerce, the county is working on an incentive program, which a county spokesperson said will hopefully generate the local economy." end of copy.


----------



## klpca

Calyn79 said:


> For those anxious and booking flights/accommodation/cars for Kauai, note what I copy below....this is current as of today - Oct 15/20. Reaching Tier 2 will bring back the 2-wk quarantine and the opt out of pre-travel testing.
> 
> copied  - "The Mayor’s Emergency Rule 19, or the 4-tier system, dictates when businesses and activities are allowed to operate, and in what capacity, supersedes past rules. With zero active cases, the county starts out on Tier 4, which is marked by a less than 1% positivity rate. The 72-hour, pre-travel test program allowed.
> 
> Tier 3, begins to limit indoor and outdoor gatherings when the county sees a one-week average of two to four cases. By Tier 2, which is met at a one-week average of daily COVID-19 cases between five to eight, the county opts out of the pre-travel testing program the two-week quarantine will be required for all travelers. Tier 1 goes into effect when there’s a one-week average of eight or more cases per day reported on the island. No pre-testing quarantine exemptions will be allowed. Here, retail and faith-based services will drop to 25% capacity; restaurants may only operate with outdoor seating and take out; and gyms will be closed, among other restrictions.
> 
> For the county to lax the rules, it must be on the current tier for at least four consecutive weeks; meet case count criteria for the next tier for two weeks; and also meet the test positive rate criteria for the next tier for two consecutive weeks, according to the county. For the jump to the next most restrictive tier, the county must exceed one or both criteria in the current tier for two weeks. The county reserves the right to implement additional restrictions not outlined currently in shorter timeframes than two weeks, if the health care system becomes overwhelmed.
> 
> Within this rule is also a requirement for wearing face masks, stating that those over 5 years old must wear masks within 6 feet of non-household members. The rule makes “limited exceptions” to those issued exemptions from a medical doctor, doctor of osteopathy, advanced nurse practitioner, or a physician assistant.
> 
> The county’s proposal for a mandatory post-arrival test to bypass the quarantine was denied by Gov. David Ige last week. However, the county was given the green-light for a voluntary second test to be taken three after arrival. With visitor industry partners and the Kaua‘i Chamber of Commerce, the county is working on an incentive program, which a county spokesperson said will hopefully generate the local economy." end of copy.


Well at least there's a plan. Better than nothing but as someone who is supposed to travel soon I wonder how much notice will be given when they move to tier three which seems to be the tier that will actually affect travelers. 



PearlCity said:


> I dont believe that what you see in the media is the majority- its a vocal minority. And reality of lack of employment is only starting to set in. That being said ive seen nasty on both sides on travel boards that have come out due to the pandemic. People are just stressed and want normal again. A good amount of locals enjoy working with tourists and showing aloha. I dont think that is going to change.
> 
> There is a lot of frustration with how the state government has handled things and residents need to concentrate their efforts there. Lack of a plan and how things have been handled has not been good. Up until a week ago- we were welcoming tourists with a testing program but still requirung folks with in Maui County to quarantine for travel between Lanai, Molokai and Maui. Crazy stuff like that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


Thanks for posting this because I needed to hear it. I just don't have the stomach to handle being the target of protests. We will be quarantining at home for two weeks prior to traveling to make sure that we won't be bringing covid with us and we want to be as safe as possible for everyone. I have read the same comments about visitors not being welcome and I don't know what to think. I'm not even sure if we will hike this time as some of the trailheads have had some unhappy locals in the past. (These are publicly marked trails, not on private property). I can't imagine the climate if folks are extra angry.


----------



## controller1

Well, at least the Hawaii Tourism Authority wants us back! Here is the email I received this evening. Of course it's veiled in "spend more"!


----------



## PearlCity

klpca said:


> Well at least there's a plan. Better than nothing but as someone who is supposed to travel soon I wonder how much notice will be given when they move to tier three which seems to be the tier that will actually affect travelers.
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting this because I needed to hear it. I just don't have the stomach to handle being the target of protests. We will be quarantining at home for two weeks prior to traveling to make sure that we won't be bringing covid with us and we want to be as safe as possible for everyone. I have read the same comments about visitors not being welcome and I don't know what to think. I'm not even sure if we will hike this time as some of the trailheads have had some unhappy locals in the past. (These are publicly marked trails, not on private property). I can't imagine the climate if folks are extra angry.


So i just watched the 12pm news on Hawaii News Now and i saw nothing on protests. Ill watch the evening news and provide an update. Im not aware of anything major going on with protests. I can say on Kauai- they dont like any outsiders in general. They protested the superferry so us folks on Oahu dont come to their island. And they can tell im not from kauai when i go to visit. I dont know how- but they can tell. If you are really worried, come and visit us on Oahu, i feel like our island has more diversity with the universities and military on island. Its much easier for a tourist to blend in (as long as you put sunscreen on and dont turn red as a lobster). Im sorry you had a bad experience hiking. 

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## klpca

PearlCity said:


> So i just watched the 12pm news on Hawaii News Now and i saw nothing on protests. Ill watch the evening news and provide an update. Im not aware of anything major going on with protests. I can say on Kauai- they dont like any outsiders in general. They protested the superferry so us folks on Oahu dont come to their island. And they can tell im not from kauai when i go to visit. I dont know how- but they can tell. If you are really worried, come and visit us on Oahu, i feel like our island has more diversity with the universities and military on island. Its much easier for a tourist to blend in (as long as you put sunscreen on and dont turn red as a lobster). Im sorry you had a bad experience hiking.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


We'll be on Oahu next.  Your Kauai experience is interesting. I guess that people are just people. Thanks for the information.


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## Tamaradarann

controller1 said:


> Not being on a plane with untested people is only valid for direct flights to Hawaii. Multi-segment flights will not provide that protection as there will be passengers traveling to non-Hawaii destinations on those flights.



Granted.  We take direct flights from JFK to HNL so that is my perspective.  Changing plans and having a layover in an airport during this pandemic is not doable in our minds.  We left Honolulu this year on March 23rd instead of staying a few more weeks since the Hilton Hawaiian Village was going to close soon and we caught the second to last direct flight from HNL to JFK before Hawaiian Airlines cut off that route the following day and we would have had to have a stopover in LAX.


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## PearlCity

klpca said:


> We'll be on Oahu next. Your Kauai experience is interesting. I guess that people are just people. Thanks for the information.


Have a great vacation! Things will be fine. I don't know how getting through the airport will be and a few restaurants have shut down, but Oahu has a lot to offer in terms of activities and places to eat and shop. We all need a break from reality and itll be good for you to get away for sure. 

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## MULTIZ321

Thousands arrive in Hawaii on first day pre-travel testing 










						Thousands arrive in Hawaii on first day pre-travel testing
					

About 8,000 people landed in Hawaii on the first day of a pre-travel testing program that allowed travelers to come to the islands without quarantining for two weeks if they could produce a negative coronavirus test.




					www.startribune.com
				





Richard


----------



## Tamaradarann

MULTIZ321 said:


> Thousands arrive in Hawaii on first day pre-travel testing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thousands arrive in Hawaii on first day pre-travel testing
> 
> 
> About 8,000 people landed in Hawaii on the first day of a pre-travel testing program that allowed travelers to come to the islands without quarantining for two weeks if they could produce a negative coronavirus test.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.startribune.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Richard


Well that certainly seems like Hawaii Tourism Numbers are off to a new start.  The number of cases and deaths in Oahu on Wednesday, the day before the pre-travel testing began, seems like a very high pre-starting number.   There must have been some significant virus spreading around Oahu before the Thursday start day.  Where did that come from? 

I was wondering how many more flight crews that are not being pre-travel tested are arriving in Hawaii.  If they see a rise in infections will they be focusing on whether a tourist or possibly an untested flight crew member brought the virus with them?


----------



## controller1

amy241 said:


> This is not encouraging news. People waited hours in line at the Maui and Big Island airports to get screened. And at Honolulu, they left passengers on the plane to prevent congestion in lines to be screened. All of those people queued up in line looks like risk even with masks on. The article comments that too many flights are arriving too close together in time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Visitors face long lines, long wait times at airports on first day of pre-travel testing program
> 
> 
> For some visitors, their Hawaiian vacation got off to a rocky start, having to wait hours in line before being able to exit the airport quarantine free.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.khon2.com



Were you expecting better on the first day? I think they'll finally get things ironed out. It appears all they needed were additional personnel to do the scanning of the QR codes.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> Well that certainly seems like Hawaii Tourism Numbers are off to a new start.  The number of cases and deaths in Oahu on Wednesday, the day before the pre-travel testing began, seems like a very high pre-starting number.   There must have been some significant virus spreading around Oahu before the Thursday start day.  Where did that come from?
> 
> I was wondering how many more flight crews that are not being pre-travel tested are arriving in Hawaii.  If they see a rise in infections will they be focusing on whether a tourist or possibly an untested flight crew member brought the virus with them?


91 new cases on Thursday. That's not a particularly high pre-starting number. It is in line with the number they've had daily for weeks. This is the chart to watch. According to the Lt. Gov, it needs to stay below 150 average cases per day.


----------



## PearlCity

Its crazy at the airports yesterday and as predicted not everyone took a test. 









						First day of traveler testing program sees thousands of arrivals and a few snags
					

"We’re trying to be extremely safe because we don’t want to have an outbreak," Lt. Gov. Josh Green said.




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com
				




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## HGVC Lover

controller1 said:


> Were you expecting better on the first day? I think they'll finally get things ironed out. It appears all they needed were additional personnel to do the scanning of the QR codes.



I would expect nothing else of having lived in Kona for many many years.  KOA is small airport and no matter how many screeners they have the lines are going to be long and the waits times long (hours) after arrival.  They know how the flights come into each island and should have been prepared for the volume of travelers.  It is just the way it is going to be and they can hype all they want that they will figure it out but in Hawaii you usually always wait in lines somewhere no matter what.  KOA  just does not have the physical space to accommodate the number of passengers it receives on a daily basis especially in the late morning and early afternoon...so glad we moved our time to go there until later in the year....maybe by then (finger crossed) but I doubt it......if you notice in the news report too that especially on the Big Island there was no social distancing of any kind in the line waiting for a second test....


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> 91 new cases on Thursday. That's not a particularly high pre-starting number. It is in line with the number they've had daily for weeks. This is the chart to watch. According to the Lt. Gov, it needs to stay below 150 average cases per day.
> 
> View attachment 27584


My thought about it being a pretty high number is in this perspective.   Less than 1000 people have been getting off the planes for weeks possibly bringing the virus to Hawaii resulting in almost 100 cases a day.  Now with 8000 or so people getting off the planes possibly bringing ?more additional cases/day to Hawaii.   The people in Hawaii who are complaining about opening up Hawaii to tourists again are going to be looking at the bottom line number of cases/day and attempt to convince the decision makers to close up Hawaii again.  It is imperative that that number be put in perspective of having almost 100 not 1 or 2 cases/day as a starting point.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> My thought about it being a pretty high number is in this perspective.   Less than 1000 people have been getting off the planes for weeks possibly bringing the virus to Hawaii resulting in almost 100 cases a day.  Now with 8000 or so people getting off the planes possibly bringing ?more additional cases/day to Hawaii.   The people in Hawaii who are complaining about opening up Hawaii to tourists again are going to be looking at the bottom line number of cases/day and attempt to convince the decision makers to close up Hawaii again.  It is imperative that that number be put in perspective of having almost 100 not 1 or 2 cases/day as a starting point.


Doesn't seem that many of the ~100 cases/day are related to the people flying in. But, either way, Hawaii has been pretty stable now for the past month as reflected in the graph, so it should be pretty easy to see if that changes (or how it changes) in the next 20-30 or so days. We'd expect to see it go up, but hopefully plateau below 150.


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## csodjd

They are reporting that about 10%, 800 of the 8000 that came over yesterday did not have a test or test results upon arrival and are required to quarantine. That's actually a smaller number than were arriving before yesterday, where about 1000-1300 were arriving daily.


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## JanT

WHY would anyone show up there without a test?  Did they not know they needed one?  How could they not know?  Or perhaps they have family there and they will just go quarantine with them?  That's just surprising to me.  I did read that there were people that showed up without having had the right test done.



csodjd said:


> They are reporting that about 10%, 800 of the 8000 that came over yesterday did not have a test or test results upon arrival and are required to quarantine. That's actually a smaller number than were arriving before yesterday, where about 1000-1300 were arriving daily.


----------



## JanT

Well....we begin our journey to Oahu tomorrow morning.  We had our Covid-19 test on Wednesday at noon and were pleasantly surprised to get the results back at basically midnight last night.  I uploaded everything into the Safe Travels website this morning and it looks like we're ready to go.  I will report back with how things go at the airport in Honolulu.


----------



## jabberwocky

JanT said:


> WHY would anyone show up there without a test?  Did they not know they needed one?  How could they not know?  Or perhaps they have family there and they will just go quarantine with them?  That's just surprising to me.  I did read that there were people that showed up without having had the right test done.


It could be Hawaii residents returning, or people just don't really value their time?


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## csodjd

JanT said:


> WHY would anyone show up there without a test?  Did they not know they needed one?  How could they not know?  Or perhaps they have family there and they will just go quarantine with them?  That's just surprising to me.  I did read that there were people that showed up without having had the right test done.


Really... is there ANY set of instructions that 1000 people will get right? I understand some just didn't have results yet, others were not tested at an approved lab, others the wrong test, others just no clue.


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## csodjd

JanT said:


> Well....we begin our journey to Oahu tomorrow morning.  We had our Covid-19 test on Wednesday at noon and were pleasantly surprised to get the results back at basically midnight last night.  I uploaded everything into the Safe Travels website this morning and it looks like we're ready to go.  I will report back with how things go at the airport in Honolulu.


Which test entity do you use?


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## JanT

We used CVS.  It was very easy as it was drive thru with each of us doing our own nasal swab as they watched.  The swabbing was simple - no need to jam it way up into the nasal cavity which I was anticipating.  



csodjd said:


> Which test entity do you use?


----------



## DeniseM

Final count of passengers arriving in Hawaii Thursday tops 10,000
					

The final count of arriving passengers on Thursday was 10,102 — an even more robust reopening of Hawaii tourism than preliminary counts showed.




					www.staradvertiser.com
				



Overall - a good start, IMNSHO.


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## PearlCity

jabberwocky said:


> It could be Hawaii residents returning, or people just don't really value their time?


Or visitors taking advantage of cheap hotels and airfare and thinking of just breaking quarantine anyway. Those are the folks residents are frustrated that the state has no plan for. 

But manu hotels are turning folks away without a negative test. Its going to be interesting. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## slip

DeniseM said:


> Final count of passengers arriving in Hawaii Thursday tops 10,000
> 
> 
> The final count of arriving passengers on Thursday was 10,102 — an even more robust reopening of Hawaii tourism than preliminary counts showed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.staradvertiser.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overall - a good start, IMNSHO.



These are the numbers I had heard. About 10,000 travelers with about 3,500 being residents and the rest vacationers. So about what they expected numbers wise. 800 had no test.

Now we have to see how this goes moving forward. I still have to decide about our two weeks on Molokai over Thanksgiving. I can book that last minute if needed.


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## DeniseM

Some of the residents said they just planned on quarantining at home, so it was no accident that they didn't have a test.


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## csodjd

DeniseM said:


> Some of the residents said they just planned on quarantining at home, so it was no accident that they didn't have a test.


Maybe I’m missing something, but why not get a test anyway? Other than cost I guess. But unless you don’t actually plan to follow the quarantine rules, even being at home for two weeks is a major inconvenience.


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## DeniseM

I’m guessing cost, hassle, and because they don’t have too. Also, quarantining is not awful for everyone. I’m a homebody and it’s no big deal for me - 2 weeks at home is a piece of cake. In the last 8 mos. I’ve spent two weeks at home many times - just didn’t need to go out. YMMV


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## Sapper

JanT said:


> We used CVS.  It was very easy as it was drive thru with each of us doing our own nasal swab as they watched.  The swabbing was simple - no need to jam it way up into the nasal cavity which I was anticipating.



So, if someone fails to push the swab up high enough, and it does not collect a sample correctly, and the test comes back negative even if they are positive (known as false negative), how was the test of any benefit?


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## b2bailey

csodjd said:


> Maybe I’m missing something, but why not get a test anyway? Other than cost I guess. But unless you don’t actually plan to follow the quarantine rules, even being at home for two weeks is a major inconvenience.


I'm thinking fear of a false positive.


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## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> Doesn't seem that many of the ~100 cases/day are related to the people flying in. But, either way, Hawaii has been pretty stable now for the past month as reflected in the graph, so it should be pretty easy to see if that changes (or how it changes) in the next 20-30 or so days. We'd expect to see it go up, but hopefully plateau below 150.



So my point being that with approximately 100 cases a day as the base line that has been pretty stable that only leaves 50 more cases a day rise.   With the way this virus spreads and the possibility that some of the people that are coming that do need to quarantine will be staying with others in the household who they will infect and who won't be quarantining and others that must quarantine but will violate quarantine, how long do you think it will take until the 150 cases/day is exceeded?


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## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> So my point being that with approximately 100 cases a day as the base line that has been pretty stable that only leaves 50 more cases a day rise.   With the way this virus spreads and the possibility that some of the people that are coming that do need to quarantine will be staying with others in the household who they will infect and who won't be quarantining and others that must quarantine but will violate quarantine, how long do you think it will take until the 150 cases/day is exceeded?


It’ll depend on mask usage and distancing from others. Even if you are infected, if you wear a mask and stay out of small areas you won’t spread it.


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## jabberwocky

csodjd said:


> It’ll depend on mask usage and distancing from others. Even if you are infected, if you wear a mask and stay out of small areas you won’t spread it.


I would just amend this to state that the mask must be worn properly. 

The responsible thing to do if you have symptoms is to isolate yourself. Don’t rely on a mask to protect others. Too many people are getting the message that a mask makes you immune and then engaging in risky behaviour or not wearing the mask properly.


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## JanT

The new tests do not require the deep probing that previous tests did.  You still go well into the nasal cavity, just not the super deep probing.  When I said it was easy I simply meant I didn’t have to shove it up into my sinus cavity so deep as to be painful.



Sapper said:


> So, if someone fails to push the swab up high enough, and it does not collect a sample correctly, and the test comes back negative even if they are positive (known as false negative), how was the test of any benefit?


----------



## PigsDad

Tamaradarann said:


> So my point being that with approximately 100 cases a day as the base line that has been pretty stable that only leaves 50 more cases a day rise.   With the way this virus spreads and the possibility that some of the people that are coming that do need to quarantine will be staying with others in the household *who they will infect* and who won't be quarantining and others that must quarantine but will violate quarantine, how long do you think it will take until the 150 cases/day is exceeded?


It seems like you are assuming those who are flying in without taking a test are infected.  Is there any evidence that even a majority of the infections in Hawaii are from people traveling there?  It would be something pretty easy to determine with contact tracing;  have any numbers been published somewhere?

Kurt


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## csodjd

PigsDad said:


> It seems like you are assuming those who are flying in without taking a test are infected.  Is there any evidence that even a majority of the infections in Hawaii are from people traveling there?  It would be something pretty easy to determine with contact tracing;  have any numbers been published somewhere?
> 
> Kurt


Even without that, we know that in the general population there is an infection rate of 3-5% (higher right now in some areas with surges). So only a small fraction coming in untested would be expected to be carrying the virus.


----------



## Kapolei

I was just at the Island Country Market.  I saw some walking around.  I asked the lady at check out ... are they back?  She smiled and exclaimed, yes, they are back!  I laughed about how this was a great moment.  We need them.  But, I have to say, the last months have really been a special time despite all the negative aspects that I don’t want to minimize. The serenity may never appear again.


----------



## critterchick

Kapolei said:


> I was just at the Island Country Market.  I saw some walking around.  I asked the lady at check out ... are they back?  She smiled and exclaimed, yes, they are back!  I laughed about how this was a great moment.  We need them.  But, I have to say, the last months have really been a special time despite all the negative aspects that I don’t want to minimize. The serenity may never appear again.



I know the feeling. When we first shut down in March, we had so little traffic in our LA County neighborhood that we could hear the birds singing all the time. Now that traffic is almost back to normal and a large construction project has started across the street, I miss the silence. Not that I wish the reason for it on anybody.


----------



## Kapolei

critterchick said:


> I know the feeling. When we first shut down in March, we had so little traffic in our LA County neighborhood that we could hear the birds singing all the time. Now that traffic is almost back to normal and a large construction project has started across the street, I miss the silence. Not that I wish the reason for it on anybody.



cities and suburbia are fantastic at half the occupancy ... 0h well, I enjoyed it while it lasted


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## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> It’ll depend on mask usage and distancing from others. Even if you are infected, if you wear a mask and stay out of small areas you won’t spread it.



There are approximately 1000 untested passengers on the planes in 1Day.  How many of those will not wear a mask?  How many of those that are untested wil violate quarantine?  How many of these untested are tourists on vacation and will NOT stay out of small indoor areas?


----------



## Tamaradarann

PigsDad said:


> It seems like you are assuming those who are flying in without taking a test are infected.  Is there any evidence that even a majority of the infections in Hawaii are from people traveling there?  It would be something pretty easy to determine with contact tracing;  have any numbers been published somewhere?
> 
> Kurt



There were approximately 1000 that flew in without being tested.  Using csodjd 3-5% infection rate that means that there are 30-50 people on the planes on Thursday that could have infected others on the plane or in the airport or on their way to quarantine.  How many of those will violate quarantine?  How many of those that got infected will infect others and spread the virus around?


----------



## DannyTS

Tamaradarann said:


> There were approximately 1000 that flew in without being tested.  Using csodjd 3-5% infection rate that means that there are 30-50 people on the planes on Thursday that could have infected others on the plane or in the airport or on their way to quarantine.  How many of those will violate quarantine?  How many of those that got infected will infect others and spread the virus around?


3-5% infection rate? That cannot be true, otherwise 10-15 million people would currently have Covid in the US


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## amy241

PigsDad said:


> It seems like you are assuming those who are flying in without taking a test are infected.  Is there any evidence that even a majority of the infections in Hawaii are from people traveling there?  It would be something pretty easy to determine with contact tracing;  have any numbers been published somewhere?
> 
> Kurt


Tourism has never been the cause of high infections there, community spread has been the issue brought on by large beach gatherings, multi-family housing, etc. It has been particularly high in the Pacific Islander communities.


----------



## HGVC Lover

amy241 said:


> This is not encouraging news. People waited hours in line at the Maui and Big Island airports to get screened. And at Honolulu, they left passengers on the plane to prevent congestion in lines to be screened. All of those people queued up in line looks like risk even with masks on. The article comments that too many flights are arriving too close together in time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Visitors face long lines, long wait times at airports on first day of pre-travel testing program
> 
> 
> For some visitors, their Hawaiian vacation got off to a rocky start, having to wait hours in line before being able to exit the airport quarantine free.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.khon2.com



West Hawaii Today reported on Thursday that people waited 4.5 hours (said it was not well thought through)  to get through the second screening test and many were hungry and thirsty because they did not realize that no food or drinks would be served on their flights.....maybe they can get it down to a couple of hours before you get out of KOA once you land.....


----------



## Tamaradarann

amy241 said:


> Tourism has never been the cause of high infections there, community spread has been the issue brought on by large beach gatherings, multi-family housing, etc. It has been particularly high in the Pacific Islander communities.



Good then there is nothing to worry about with Hawaii Opening Up to tourists whether they are tested before boarding, tested after arrival, not tested at all, or violating quarantining.  I am happy to hear that the fear that the local people have of tourists returning is not warranted.


----------



## csodjd

Here is the latest data from Hawaii. It reflects an overall positivity rate of 2.5% and a 7-day new case rate of 80. This is essentially the baseline as tourists arrive. According to the Lt. Gov. they are looking to keep that new case rate below 150.


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## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> 3-5% infection rate? That cannot be true, otherwise 10-15 million people would currently have Covid in the US


In some areas it is currently above 20%. The state of California is currently reporting a 2.6% 7-day positivity rate. LA County is reporting a 3.1% 7-day moving average. You can verify any of these numbers yourself quite easily so I'm not posting links. But here is a state by state listing updated as of yesterday. This, of course, reflects the percentage of people that GOT TESTED and tested positive. It is not necessarily community surveillance numbers. So it probably skews toward positives since symptomatic and exposed people are more likely to get tested.





__





						States ranked by COVID-19 test positivity rates
					

Here are the rates of positive COVID-19 tests in each state, along with the number of new cases most recently reported and number of tests conducted per 1,000 people.




					www.beckershospitalreview.com


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> There were approximately 1000 that flew in without being tested.  Using csodjd 3-5% infection rate that means that there are 30-50 people on the planes on Thursday that could have infected others on the plane or in the airport or on their way to quarantine.  How many of those will violate quarantine?  How many of those that got infected will infect others and spread the virus around?


The recently released DOD study showed that if you sit on an airplane next to an infected person, and both of you wear masks, you'll need to sit together for 54 years to have enough viral load to get sick. https://www.stripes.com/news/us/dod...ane-with-people-wearing-masks-is-low-1.648730

Violating quarantine does not get anyone sick by itself. You can be a raging infection glowing COVID-red and be out and about and not get anyone sick IF you wear a mask, stay socially distant, and stay out of small poorly spaces with poorly circulated air.

So the answer to your (rhetorical) question is probably, a few, but not many. Again, assume 50 arrive daily with infection. How many will violate quarantine? Let's say 20%. Well, now we are down to 10 people in the community. Of those 10, how many will irresponsibly not wear a mask and not socially distant? Maybe a few. What are the chances YOU will have a sustained encounter with one of those people sufficient to transfer the virus if YOU have a mask on and YOU socially distant? Probably about the same as getting hit by lightning.

Healthy fear and being careful are warranted. Paranoia or irrational fear, well, the airplane can crash too. There is ALWAYS risk. We know enough now about COVID that we can manage that risk by our OWN conduct in most cases.


----------



## jabberwocky

csodjd said:


> In some areas it is currently above 20%. The state of California is currently reporting a 2.6% 7-day positivity rate. LA County is reporting a 3.1% 7-day moving average. You can verify any of these numbers yourself quite easily so I'm not posting links. But here is a state by state listing updated as of yesterday. This, of course, reflects the percentage of people that GOT TESTED and tested positive. It is not necessarily community surveillance numbers. So it probably skews toward positives since symptomatic and exposed people are more likely to get tested.


You can’t use positivity rate to generalize to the whole population. If that is what you are basing the 3-5% estimate on, then you’ll need to try again, because we don’t know the composition of the sample. It isn’t random sample selection.

People  a reason to have to get a test and if you have any sort of half-decent contact tracing the positivity rate will be higher.


----------



## csodjd

jabberwocky said:


> You can’t use positivity rate to generalize to the whole population. If that is what you are basing the 3-5% estimate on, then you’ll need to try again, because we don’t know the composition of the sample. It isn’t random sample selection.
> 
> People  a reason to have to get a test and if you have any sort of half-decent contact tracing the positivity rate will be higher.


Yes, that's what I stated. It is not surveillance data and it is skewed because symptomatic and exposed people are more likely to be tested. But for purposes of considering RISK of going to Hawaii, it represents a fair worst-case starting point. The real positivity rate is likely lower representing even less risk. In addition, since those going to Hawaii don't represent a cross-section of the population and likely largely excludes those at highest risk of testing positive (college students, factory workers, etc.) that too reduces risk. 

My point is that, if you use DATA and not emotion, even using that 3-5% number results in near-zero risk.


----------



## amy241

Tamaradarann said:


> Good then there is nothing to worry about with Hawaii Opening Up to tourists whether they are tested before boarding, tested after arrival, not tested at all, or violating quarantining.  I am happy to hear that the fear that the local people have of tourists returning is not warranted.



There is no call for sarcasm or rudeness. I qualified my comments by stating “high“ infection rates. I have found your views to be extreme with your suggestion that all tourists be marched off to a quarantine facility under armed guard. I am glad viewpoints such as this are not well represented.


----------



## DeniseM

Since everyone is totally speculating at this point, how about keeping the tone friendly and waiting to see what actually happens?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HGVC Lover

amy241 said:


> There is no call for sarcasm or rudeness. I qualified my comments by stating “high’ infection rates.I have found your views to be extreme with your suggestion that all tourists be marched off to a quarantine facility under armed guard. I am glad viewpoints such as this arenot well represented.



Completely agree........


----------



## csodjd

HGVC Lover said:


> West Hawaii Today reported on Thursday that people waited 4.5 hours (said it was not well thought through)  to get through the second screening test and many were hungry and thirsty because they did not realize that no food or drinks would be served on their flights.....maybe they can get it down to a couple of hours before you get out of KOA once you land.....


A friend of mine arrived in Maui yesterday from Los Angeles on Hawaiian. She said it took two hours to get through everything and on their way, that it was smooth and not a problem.


----------



## HGVC Lover

csodjd said:


> A friend of mine arrived in Maui yesterday from Los Angeles on Hawaiian. She said it took two hours to get through everything and on their way, that it was smooth and not a problem.



True....wait times were long in Maui too but the big difference between KOA and Maui it that at the Maui airport people are in an air-conditioned space and at KOA it is open air.  Also, at Maui the 2 hours was just for verification of pre-travel test while at KOA arriving passengers had to verify pre-test, take a second test and then wait for results until finally people were allowed to leave the airport at 8:00 PM Thursday without verification of their second test after taking it.

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2020...rt-entry-process-especially-on-hawaii-island/


----------



## csodjd

Here's an interesting look at who arrived yesterday. This doesn't include inter-island flights/passengers, just those coming from mainland US. According to the Lt. Gov., about 1400 of those had to quarantine, with about 300-400 of those 1400 being because they didn't have their test results yet. (Not clear to me where the 502 Crew fits into that, not tested and not quarantined?)


----------



## PigsDad

DannyTS said:


> 3-5% infection rate? That cannot be true, otherwise 10-15 million people would currently have Covid in the US


Correct.  This is a commonly misused statistic.  The infection rates that are published are the *rate of positive tests*, not the rate of Covid-infected people in the general population.  So the population for this statistic is only those who have been tested, and in _general_, the majority of those taking tests are those who have symptoms or know they were exposed.  Those taking tests that don't have symptoms, such as random testing, travelers, etc. are a much smaller portion.

Kurt


----------



## Tamaradarann

amy241 said:


> There is no call for sarcasm or rudeness. I qualified my comments by stating “high“ infection rates. I have found your views to be extreme with your suggestion that all tourists be marched off to a quarantine facility under armed guard. I am glad viewpoints such as this are not well represented.



I have NEVER suggested that ALL tourists be marched off to a quartantine facility under armed guard.  What I have suggested is that those who chose NOT TO GET TESTED before boarding, and therefore, must quarantine, be escorted to a quatantine facility under armed guard.  There were 2 reasons for that.  One was to make sure that anyone who did come to Hawaii untested MUST stay in quarantine and not violate quarantine like has happened.  Two was to strongly urge, by making coming here untested very uncomfortable, that everyone get tested first before boarding.

While there was certainly a degree of sarcasm in my comment it was not rude.  Since the opening of Hawaii to tourists is the main issue that is on the minds of most of those on this thread right now as well as in the minds of those that live in Hawaii I was trying to refocus the discussion to the impact of the return of tourists on the number of infected rather than diverting the discussion to the cause of high infection rates perhaps being something that did not have to do with tourists returning.


----------



## csodjd

PigsDad said:


> Correct.  This is a commonly misused statistic.  The infection rates that are published are the *rate of positive tests*, not the rate of Covid-infected people in the general population.  So the population for this statistic is only those who have been tested, and in _general_, the majority of those taking tests are those who have symptoms or know they were exposed.  Those taking tests that don't have symptoms, such as random testing, travelers, etc. are a much smaller portion.
> 
> Kurt


Except where surveillance testing is occurring. Many universities, for instance, and employers, are engaging in surveillance testing.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> I have NEVER suggested that ALL tourists be marched off to a quartantine facility under armed guard.  What I have suggested is that those who chose NOT TO GET TESTED before boarding, and therefore, must quarantine, be escorted to a quatantine facility under armed guard.  There were 2 reasons for that.  One was to make sure that anyone who did come to Hawaii untested MUST stay in quarantine and not violate quarantine like has happened.  Two was to strongly urge, by making coming here untested very uncomfortable, that everyone get tested first before boarding.
> 
> While there was certainly a degree of sarcasm in my comment it was not rude.  Since the opening of Hawaii to tourists is the main issue that is on the minds of most of those on this thread right now as well as in the minds of those that live in Hawaii I was trying to refocus the discussion to the impact of the return of tourists on the number of infected rather than diverting the discussion to the cause of high infection rates perhaps being something that did not have to do with tourists returning.


Is there any evidence at all that people breaking quarantine have been responsible for a material rise in COVID incidence in Hawaii? Since breaking quarantine doesn't actually cause any illness at all, before getting all bent out of shape that it may and does occur, it's helpful to know if it has had an adverse impact at all.


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> Except where surveillance testing is occurring. Many universities, for instance, and employers, are engaging in surveillance testing.


And what are the results for the surveillance testing? The positives cannot possibly be 3-5% of the general population at any given moment.


----------



## echino

Tamaradarann said:


> What I have suggested is that those who chose NOT TO GET TESTED before boarding, and therefore, must quarantine, be escorted to a quatantine facility under armed guard.



This is fascism.


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> And what are the results for the surveillance testing? The positives cannot possibly be 3-5% of the general population at any given moment.


It obviously varies considerably. Here is one example, this is from students at Georgia Tech:





So we see about a 1% positivity among this group of college students. 

I suspect it would vary considerably today between, say, Florida or Wisconsin, and Hawaii or New York.


----------



## csodjd

csodjd said:


> It obviously varies considerably. Here is one example, this is from students at Georgia Tech:
> 
> View attachment 27633
> 
> So we see about a 1% positivity among this group of college students.
> 
> I suspect it would vary considerably today between, say, Florida or Wisconsin, and Hawaii or New York.


Here is another. This is from Washington DC:

Total Number of DC Residents Tested: 239,835*
Total Positives: 16,334
That's about a 0.7% rate.


----------



## DannyTS

It would certainly vary by state.  I would expect the  rate of the general population to be even lower because the students are more in close contact with other students than most people.


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> Here is another. This is from Washington DC:
> 
> Total Number of DC Residents Tested: 239,835*
> Total Positives: 16,334
> That's about a 0.7% rate.


If you combine this information with the NYT article that about 90% of the positives should be actually negative (damaged virus that is not contagious), it probably gives a rate for the students that are contagious of less than 1/1000


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> It would certainly vary by state.  I would expect the  rate of the general population to be even lower because the students are more in close contact with other students than most people.


The point is that the emotional fear of opening tourism is quite distinct from the data-driven reality. The proof will be in the data, over the next 30 days or so. Provided the precautionary rules are largely complied with, I do not expect to see a surge of cases as a result of tourism rebooting.


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> If you combine this information with the NYT article that about 90% of the positives should be actually negative (damaged virus that is not contagious), it probably gives a rate for the students that are contagious of less than 1/1000


I'm not aware of any reliable data that 90% of positives are actually negative. But clinical tests must always be evaluated along with clinical findings and patient history. I would view a positive test result very differently coming from someone that said they had COVID 45 days ago, someone that said they've never had it and feel fine, but both their parents are currently sick from it, and very different again from someone that said they have a fever, feel lousy and have a cough. Medicine doesn't live in a vacuum. 

So looking back to the issue, Hawaii travel, you have a sub-set of the population that itself has lower risk, you have pre-travel testing which will find many asymptomatic cases, but not all. You have masks and distancing, which will greatly reduce transmission from those that ARE infectious. So, will travel result in uncontrolled community spread? We can surmise now, probably not, but will know for sure in a month or so.


----------



## PearlCity

csodjd said:


> Is there any evidence at all that people breaking quarantine have been responsible for a material rise in COVID incidence in Hawaii? Since breaking quarantine doesn't actually cause any illness at all, before getting all bent out of shape that it may and does occur, it's helpful to know if it has had an adverse impact at all.


Actually yes as a resident I know of people who caught it from other returning residents or out of state relatives who traveled here and broke quarantine -especially during the recent oahu spike. Now has any resident gotten it from a non related tourist breaking quarantine? It is difficult to say because in reality we haven't had many tourists come. There is a lot of fear amongst residents because historically all "diseases" in Hawaii have been brought in from travelers. Like DeniseM states itll be interesting to see what happens. I agree with you its probably unlikely that there will be transmission on the ground once a tourist arrives, but i am concerned about folks on the airplane. It was reported that they did find a person arriving on Kona who tested positive on the ground after arrival. One could say its only one person- but was that person wearing a mask in flight? What now about others sitting around them? Was contact tracing done? The other thing is that while yes prior to Oct 15th we had 1000-1500 people arrive untested the flights were nearly empty. It doesn't seem to be the case now. What is spread like on the planes now for such a long flight?

I think no one really knows how this will play out, we'll have to wait and see. 

I want to add im not picking i fight. I find your posts informative and interesting. Just wanted to provide another viewpoint from a resident. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> *I'm not aware of any reliable data that 90% of positives are actually negative. *But clinical tests must always be evaluated along with clinical findings and patient history. I would view a positive test result very differently coming from someone that said they had COVID 45 days ago, someone that said they've never had it and feel fine, but both their parents are currently sick from it, and very different again from someone that said they have a fever, feel lousy and have a cough. Medicine doesn't live in a vacuum.
> 
> So looking back to the issue, Hawaii travel, you have a sub-set of the population that itself has lower risk, you have pre-travel testing which will find many asymptomatic cases, but not all. You have masks and distancing, which will greatly reduce transmission from those that ARE infectious. So, will travel result in uncontrolled community spread? We can surmise now, probably not, but will know for sure in a month or so.



I think this was shared before

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/health/coronavirus-testing.html


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> I think this was shared before
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/health/coronavirus-testing.html
> 
> View attachment 27635


I'm familiar with that article and the concepts. It underscores that a positive/not positive outcome fails to recognize that what's really going on is more gray and should be more akin to probably positive, almost certainly positive, etc. Their conclusion is that SOME of the positives probably are not infectious because they're being safe and not sorry. But, as they point out, the yes/no threshold varies by test maker. Reasonable minds might differ on how many cycles is the "best" or "right" answer. If I was an obese diabetic, I'd prefer that they have some false positives over false negatives. 

The fact is, ~220,000 have died and about 8M have had the disease... so there is PLENTY of not false positive out there!


----------



## csodjd

PearlCity said:


> Actually yes as a resident I know of people who caught it from other returning residents or out of state relatives who traveled here and broke quarantine -especially during the recent oahu spike. Now has any resident gotten it from a non related tourist breaking quarantine? It is difficult to say because in reality we haven't had many tourists come. There is a lot of fear amongst residents because historically all "diseases" in Hawaii have been brought in from travelers. Like DeniseM states itll be interesting to see what happens. I agree with you its probably unlikely that there will be transmission on the ground once a tourist arrives, but i am concerned about folks on the airplane. It was reported that they did find a person arriving on Kona who tested positive on the ground after arrival. One could say its only one person- but was that person wearing a mask in flight? What now about others sitting around them? Was contact tracing done? The other thing is that while yes prior to Oct 15th we had 1000-1500 people arrive untested the flights were nearly empty. It doesn't seem to be the case now. What is spread like on the planes now for such a long flight?
> 
> I think no one really knows how this will play out, we'll have to wait and see.
> 
> I want to add im not picking i fight. I find your posts informative and interesting. Just wanted to provide another viewpoint from a resident.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


Viewpoints from residents are helpful. Boots on the ground, so to speak. 

At the end of the day, it's more about complying with masks, social distancing, staying out of risk locations (bars, etc.), and washing hands. Chris Christy is a CASE STUDY. As he said, he spent 7 months complying and even though he was in New Jersey, where it was quite prevalent, he avoided COVID. Then he let his guard down and attended the WH and the Trump debate prep without precautions, and got COVID. His point was that, in his experience, the precautions protected him. 

So, even if some tourists come carrying the virus, if they, and we, and you, do the right things... it will likely be harmless error. Don't do the right things, and the virus will find you.


----------



## geist1223

echino said:


> This is fascism.



No this is the idiots being controlled for the greater good.


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> I'm familiar with that article and the concepts. It underscores that a positive/not positive outcome fails to recognize that what's really going on is more gray and should be more akin to probably positive, almost certainly positive, etc. Their conclusion is that SOME of the positives probably are not infectious because they're being safe and not sorry. But, as they point out, the yes/no threshold varies by test maker. Reasonable minds might differ on how many cycles is the "best" or "right" answer. If I was an obese diabetic, I'd prefer that they have some false positives over false negatives.
> 
> The fact is, ~220,000 have died and about 8M have had the disease... so there is PLENTY of not false positive out there!


SOME?

In Massachusetts, from *85 to 90 percent of people who tested positive in July with a cycle threshold of 40 would have been deemed negative if the threshold were 30 cycles, Dr. Mina said. “I would say that none of those people should be contact-traced, not one*,” he said.


----------



## Tamaradarann

echino said:


> This is fascism.



If you will, I'd prefer to call it law enforcement.  There are laws that I agree with and others that I don't agree with.  In over 70 years of living I have never been arrested so I would suggest that in general I do obey the law.  I do agree with testing for the coronavirus and using the results to protect infection from spreading throughout the population.  Enforcement of the quarantine laws is part of that effort.  I don't agree with the enforcement of the laws that has prevented people from walking on the beach in Hawaii or siting with the family members they live with.  I guess one could call a Police Officer stopping me from doing so fasicm.  The potential for the enforcement of those laws would prevent me from doing it.


----------



## MULTIZ321

Hawaii again welcoming visitors; Here's everything
you need to know.










						Hawaii travel is about to get a lot easier: Here's what you need to know - The Points Guy
					

Hawaii's Safe Travels program will be dropped starting March 26.




					thepointsguy.com
				





Richard


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> SOME?
> 
> In Massachusetts, from *85 to 90 percent of people who tested positive in July with a cycle threshold of 40 would have been deemed negative if the threshold were 30 cycles, Dr. Mina said. “I would say that none of those people should be contact-traced, not one*,” he said.


Yes some. That's like saying 85-90% of the people that were not actually infectious would have been deemed negative if the threshold was adjusted. Duh. We are dealing with measures of certainty. Akin to a confidence interval in statistics.

As a corrollary, you'd also be increasing the false negatives -- you'd have people coming back negative that were still infectious if the cycles are changed. Bottom line is, it is set where it is set because people that are experts in the field believe it is the most appropriate cut-off point. Unless your broad experience as a PhD in PCR testing indicates they are wrong, your opinion is not really very important. We all recognize that in the absence of clinical findings, a positive results means you are PROBABLY positive, and a negative means you are PROBABLY negative. 

If the goal is keeping residents of Hawaii safe, or anyone else, false positives are not a big concern. False negatives are. End of discussion.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> Here's an interesting look at who arrived yesterday. This doesn't include inter-island flights/passengers, just those coming from mainland US. According to the Lt. Gov., about 1400 of those had to quarantine, with about 300-400 of those 1400 being because they didn't have their test results yet. (Not clear to me where the 502 Crew fits into that, not tested and not quarantined?)
> 
> View attachment 27623


Thank you for posting this most interesting breakdown of the October 15th arrivals.  To me it reveals much more than just a return of tourists.  My thought is that only the Pleasure/Vacation and the Honeymoon numbers reveal an opening up of Hawaii to tourists which is 3236 out of 8219 which is about 40%.  Certainly more of some of the other categories came because there was no longer a quarantine required with a negative pre-boarding test.  If the infection numbers do go up significantly it certainly can't be blamed solely on Tourists! 

There were about 800 who arrived on October 15th who didn't get tested, but now must be quarantined.  Some of those that are required to be quarantined will violate the quarantine.  Furthermore, others may do their best to try to quarantine but they will have impediments.  They will be living in quarters with other people who don't have to quarantine, but the traveller could have brought infection into the residence.  Those people will go out into the public.  Also, people may come to visit that residence and get infected.  

 As amy 241 said social distancing, wearing masks and large groups of people together are certainly major spreading factors; however, there are other factors which led me to put forth the thought about the escorted quarentine to an isolated guarded faciltiy to prevent the spread.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> As amy 241 said social distancing, wearing masks and large groups of people together are certainly major spreading factors; however, there are other factors which led me to put forth the thought about the escorted quarentine to an isolated guarded faciltiy to prevent the spread.


I'm reasonably certain that would violate the constitution. There's this "due process" thing that prevents the government from locking you up in a jail without a hearing, without a bail hearing, etc.


----------



## critterchick

Tamaradarann said:


> There were about 800 who arrived on October 15th who didn't get tested, but now must be quarantined.  Some of those that are required to be quarantined will violate the quarantine.  Furthermore, others may do their best to try to quarantine but they will have impediments.  They will be living in quarters with other people who don't have to quarantine, but the traveller could have brought infection into the residence.  Those people will go out into the public.  Also, people may come to visit that residence and get infected.



As I understand it (not very well, lol), if you test positive, your whole party goes into quarantine. Or were you talking about people who are staying with residents that aren’t subject to quarantine?


----------



## geist1223

csodjd said:


> I'm reasonably certain that would violate the constitution. There's this "due process" thing that prevents the government from locking you up in a jail without a hearing, without a bail hearing, etc.



Actually you can be locked up in jail without any type of hearing. So if you get arrested and locked up on a Friday Night and the courts are closed if you can not post bail you will most likely sit there until Monday.

Also there are a variety of court decisions over the past 100 years concerning public health actions which are different from criminal actions.


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> Yes some. That's like saying 85-90% of the people that were not actually infectious would have been deemed negative if the threshold was adjusted. Duh. We are dealing with measures of certainty. Akin to a confidence interval in statistics.
> 
> As a corrollary, you'd also be increasing the false negatives -- you'd have people coming back negative that were still infectious if the cycles are changed. Bottom line is, it is set where it is set because people that are experts in the field believe it is the most appropriate cut-off point. Unless your broad experience as a PhD in PCR testing indicates they are wrong, your opinion is not really very important. We all recognize that in the absence of clinical findings, a positive results means you are PROBABLY positive, and a negative means you are PROBABLY negative.
> 
> If the goal is keeping residents of Hawaii safe, or anyone else, false positives are not a big concern. False negatives are. End of discussion.


I agree with most of what you said. At the same time, my comment was in the context of how many travelers to Hawaii can  spread the virus and the number seems to be many times lower than what was said. 

The false positives are also important to know because otherwise you end up with people who died of other causes inflating the number of covid 19 deaths. Like 220k.


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> The false positives are also important to know because otherwise you end up with people who died of other causes inflating the number of covid 19 deaths. Like 220k.


There is no credible evidence that the number of DEAD around the world is materially inflated due to "false positives." That's a talking point by those that wish to deny the science and/or minimize the seriousness of the disease. Certainly there are false positive test results. In most cases that's in asymptomatic people (see Nick Saban). But when test results are correlated with clinical findings by infectious disease specialists and ER doctors, considering lung CT scans, O2 saturation, loss of smell and taste, history, and related signs and symptoms, the fact is that many are diagnosed with COVID irrespective of test results. If one believes that the number of deaths attributed to COVID is untrue and is actually far less I'd say that person is just revealing their view that COVID is a hoax, or not real or important, a view entirely rejected by all credible science around the world. I'm pretty sure most of the world, from Iceland to New Zealand, did not all get together and decide to shut down their economies and order their citizens to stay at home because of American politics or a medical hoax.

False positives are a concern in all of medicine because they lead to otherwise unnecessary testing and medical costs, and human costs in stress, anxiety, fear. False negatives are a concern because they lead to often avoidable death.

Here is an article discussing the evidence that, in fact, many more have died of COVID than are attributed to it, but discussing the various challenges with coming to definitive conclusions.









						How many people has the coronavirus killed?
					

Researchers are struggling to tally mortality statistics as the pandemic rages. Here’s how they gauge the true toll of the coronavirus outbreak.




					www.nature.com


----------



## slip

We drove down Kalakaua after grocery shopping today. It the first weekend with traveling with no quarantine with a negative test. It was a little busier. These were taken at about 2:30pm this afternoon. It has been a cloudy day and the trade winds aren’t blowing. Sounds like they won’t return until Thursday. Waves were pretty big today too.


----------



## Tamaradarann

critterchick said:


> As I understand it (not very well, lol), if you test positive, your whole party goes into quarantine. Or were you talking about people who are staying with residents that aren’t subject to quarantine?



I was talking about staying with residents that aren't subject to quarantine since they never left the island.


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> There is no credible evidence that the number of DEAD around the world is materially inflated due to "false positives." That's a talking point by those that wish to deny the science and/or minimize the seriousness of the disease. Certainly there are false positive test results. In most cases that's in asymptomatic people (see Nick Saban). But when test results are correlated with clinical findings by infectious disease specialists and ER doctors, considering lung CT scans, O2 saturation, loss of smell and taste, history, and related signs and symptoms, the fact is that many are diagnosed with COVID irrespective of test results. If one believes that the number of deaths attributed to COVID is untrue and is actually far less I'd say that person is just revealing their view that COVID is a hoax, or not real or important, a view entirely rejected by all credible science around the world. I'm pretty sure most of the world, from Iceland to New Zealand, did not all get together and decide to shut down their economies and order their citizens to stay at home because of American politics or a medical hoax.
> 
> False positives are a concern in all of medicine because they lead to otherwise unnecessary testing and medical costs, and human costs in stress, anxiety, fear. False negatives are a concern because they lead to often avoidable death.
> 
> Here is an article discussing the evidence that, in fact, many more have died of COVID than are attributed to it, but discussing the various challenges with coming to definitive conclusions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many people has the coronavirus killed?
> 
> 
> Researchers are struggling to tally mortality statistics as the pandemic rages. Here’s how they gauge the true toll of the coronavirus outbreak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com



I will make it simple. If the _whole_ US population tested (false) positive, you would have a huge number of registered Covid deaths. The number of false positive results does matter. It should not but unfortunately it does due to the way the deaths are counted.
You do the math.   So far 8,000,000 people tested positive in the US.  About 1% or 80,000 of those would sadly die every year  because of sickness, age or both. If 90% of them are false positive, you can easily see how  up to 72,000 deaths can be added erroneously.

Please keep it light with the "hoax" argument, neither very constructive nor very original. I did not say that the virus is not dangerous. If you do not like my argument fine with me.


----------



## Tamaradarann

[Not appropriate and really off-topic. Let's try for some courteous conversation.]


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> I will make it simple. If the _whole_ US population tested (false) positive, you would have a huge number of registered Covid deaths.


That’s nonsensical. If they were FALSE positives, by definition they did not die from COVID. You cannot be both a false positive for COVID and infected with COVID.


----------



## LannyPC

I haven't really followed this rather lengthy thread.  So is there any news as to when HI will end the 14-day quarantine requirement and/or the mandatory 72-hr. pre-arrival Covid test?


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> That’s nonsensical. If they were FALSE positives, by definition they did not die from COVID. You cannot be both a false positive for COVID and infected with COVID.



I am trying to understand your point of view. According to the NYT 90% of those that test positive should actually be in the negative column and not be quarantined,  contact traced etc. If any of those 90% die, don't you agree that none should be considered a Covid 19 death? The evidence show that all those that die  are all bundled together in the statistics, the 10% and the 90%. 

I think you are just trying to play with words. I am using false positive in the sense of the 90%. I think the NYT is pretty clear. If you want to use another term I am fine with that but the conclusion is the same, those 90% should not be considered Covid deaths. 









						Your Coronavirus Test Is Positive. Maybe It Shouldn’t Be. (Published 2020)
					

The usual diagnostic tests may simply be too sensitive and too slow to contain the spread of the virus.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> I am trying to understand your point of view. According to the NYT 90% of those that test positive should actually be in the negative column and not be quarantined,  contact traced etc. If any of those 90% die, don't you agree that none should be considered a Covid 19 death? The evidence show that all those that die  are all bundled together in the statistics, the 10% and the 90%.
> 
> I think you are just trying to play with words. I am using false positive in the sense of the 90%. I think the NYT is pretty clear. If you want to use another term I am fine with that but the conclusion is the same, those 90% should not be considered Covid deaths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your Coronavirus Test Is Positive. Maybe It Shouldn’t Be. (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> The usual diagnostic tests may simply be too sensitive and too slow to contain the spread of the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


I'm trying to understand YOUR point of view. The goal is to keep Hawaii and its residents safe from COVID as much as possible and, within reason, reduce the number of people with an infection from coming in. Errs on the side on false positives does that. Errs on the side of false negatives does not. You are advocating a position that would increase the chances of a false negative in order to reduce the chances of a false positive. That's contrary to keeping anyone, or anywhere, safe from COVID. Your point of view appears to be that the safety of Hawaii should be compromised in order to help ensure we don't have the inconvenience of false positives. You're entitled to your view. I'm hoping when I visit Hawaii it will be very unlikely I will cause, or be the victim of, the spread of COVID.


----------



## DeniseM

LannyPC said:


> I haven't really followed this rather lengthy thread. So is there any news as to when HI will end the 14-day quarantine requirement and/or the mandatory 72-hr. pre-arrival Covid test?


The 72 hour testing just started 3 days ago, so I certainly wouldn't expect anything to change for months.  Hawaii does not have the medical infrastructure to take care of an out of control pandemic, so they are going to be cautious.  I wouldn't expect anything to change until everyone has access to a vaccine.  You guys that want to argue about this - don't bother - not interested.


----------



## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> I'm trying to understand YOUR point of view. The goal is to keep Hawaii and its residents safe from COVID as much as possible and, within reason, reduce the number of people with an infection from coming in. Errs on the side on false positives does that. Errs on the side of false negatives does not. You are advocating a position that would increase the chances of a false negative in order to reduce the chances of a false positive. That's contrary to keeping anyone, or anywhere, safe from COVID. Your point of view appears to be that the safety of Hawaii should be compromised in order to help ensure we don't have the inconvenience of false positives. You're entitled to your view. I'm hoping when I visit Hawaii it will be very unlikely I will cause, or be the victim of, the spread of COVID.


What exactly you say I was advocating? Did I say Hawaii should change the tests or anything like that? NO. Going back to what you said, 3-5% positive rate for those that land in Hawaii  without a test is WRONG and others told you the same. I think you have nuanced your answer after that but bottom line is that it cannot be 3 or 5% that are contagious, very, very far from that. This is all I said.


----------



## b2bailey

DannyTS said:


> What exactly you say I was advocating? Did I say Hawaii should change the tests or anything like that? NO. Going back to what you said, 3-5% positive rate for those that land in Hawaii  without a test is WRONG and others told you the same. I think you have nuanced your answer after that but bottom line is that it cannot be 3 or 5% that are contagious, very, very far from that. This is all I said.


I think it's time for mod to move this to debate mode. Not useful to those who want new information.


----------



## DeniseM

b2bailey - I agree, it's tedious, but this thread that we are posting in right now is the _discussion_ thread, and this is the _facts_ thread: FACTS


----------



## JanT

Just a quick update on our trip regarding getting through the airport at HNL.  I’m tired this morning and will write more later.

Before we boarded our flight at DFW there were several announcements that we were required to have a QR code issued by the Hawaii Safe Travels program prior to arrival here. They didn’t announce what would happen if someone didn’t have one - just said everyone needed one. They announced it a few more times while in flight. There must have been a few people who didn’t have one because once we arrived and got in lineto go through the screening process,airport employees were walking the line and asking people and pulling them out to a gate area to deal with it. 
There were plenty of work stations with employees helping screen everyone.  There was one flight in front of us but it took only about 20 minutes to get to a work station and only took about 10 minutes to get through the actual screening process.  They asked to see our QR code which they scanned with an IPad, our ID, and they wanted to see an actual paper copy of our Covid-19 negative test results.  They reviewed the information gleaned from our QR code (where we were staying and how long) and that was it. So about 30 minutes from the time we entered the line to finishing up.  Not bad at all.


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## csodjd

JanT said:


> Just a quick update on our trip regarding getting through the airport at HNL.  I’m tired this morning and will write more later.
> 
> Before we boarded our flight at DFW there were several announcements that we were required to have a QR code issued by the Hawaii Safe Travels program prior to arrival here. They didn’t announce what would happen if someone didn’t have one - just said everyone needed one. They announced it a few more times while in flight. There must have been a few people who didn’t have one because once we arrived and got in lineto go through the screening process,airport employees were walking the line and asking people and pulling them out to a gate area to deal with it.
> There were plenty of work stations with employees helping screen everyone.  There was one flight in front of us but it took only about 20 minutes to get to a work station and only took about 10 minutes to get through the actual screening process.  They asked to see our QR code which they scanned with an IPad, our ID, and they wanted to see an actual paper copy of our Covid-19 negative test results.  They reviewed the information gleaned from our QR code (where we were staying and how long) and that was it. So about 30 minutes from the time we entered the line to finishing up.  Not bad at all.


I wonder how many people have no clue what a QR code is. 

I read that at least some of the airlines are working to coordinate their landing times so that they don't have too many flights arrive at the same time. That too would help.


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## klpca

csodjd said:


> I wonder how many people have no clue what a QR code is.
> 
> I read that at least some of the airlines are working to coordinate their landing times so that they don't have too many flights arrive at the same time. That too would help.


I had read on another thread (tripadvisor I think) that some showed up without any testing at all - so they certainly wouldn't have a QR code. Whether they just didn't realize that they could opt out of testing or not, I don't know. But people are amazing sometimes.


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## amy241

JanT said:


> Just a quick update on our trip regarding getting through the airport at HNL.  I’m tired this morning and will write more later.
> 
> Before we boarded our flight at DFW there were several announcements that we were required to have a QR code issued by the Hawaii Safe Travels program prior to arrival here. They didn’t announce what would happen if someone didn’t have one - just said everyone needed one. They announced it a few more times while in flight. There must have been a few people who didn’t have one because once we arrived and got in lineto go through the screening process,airport employees were walking the line and asking people and pulling them out to a gate area to deal with it.
> There were plenty of work stations with employees helping screen everyone.  There was one flight in front of us but it took only about 20 minutes to get to a work station and only took about 10 minutes to get through the actual screening process.  They asked to see our QR code which they scanned with an IPad, our ID, and they wanted to see an actual paper copy of our Covid-19 negative test results.  They reviewed the information gleaned from our QR code (where we were staying and how long) and that was it. So about 30 minutes from the time we entered the line to finishing up.  Not bad at all.



Many east coast passengers like myself will be traveling when our results are emailed. I have 2 legs (FLL-SFO and SFO-HNL) on 2 separate days with an overnight at SFO. While I can upload a PDF of the results, how is someone in my position supposed to have a paper copy as well?


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## csodjd

klpca said:


> I had read on another thread (tripadvisor I think) that some showed up without any testing at all - so they certainly wouldn't have a QR code. Whether they just didn't realize that they could opt out of testing or not, I don't know. But people are amazing sometimes.


Yes. But we also have to recognize that people here are not "typical" or average travelers. There's been lots of press about Hawaii opening, and there are always 2 or 3 standard deviations left of the mean. It's part of the challenge of government... it's easy to plan for those that follow the plan, it's harder to plan for those that don't.


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## csodjd

amy241 said:


> Many east coast passengers like myself will be traveling when our results are emailed. I have 2 legs (FLL-SFO and SFO-HNL) on 2 separate days with an overnight at SFO. While I can upload a PDF of the results, how is someone in my position supposed to have a paper copy as well?


Hopefully you can print it at your hotel in SF.


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## b2bailey

DeniseM said:


> b2bailey - I agree, it's tedious, but this thread that we are posting in right now is the _discussion_ thread, and this is the _facts_ thread: FACTS


Thank you for clarification.


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## b2bailey

To clarify, the Hawaii Safe Travel website login and the QR code is required for all arriving passengers, whether they had testing or not. It is used to do the daily monitoring for quarantine. 

Funny thing -- my quarantine ended today. I've been receiving a daily email and text reminding me to do login. I'd been wondering if I would receive some kind of "you did it!" communication today. No. Just the absence of the reminder.


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## Ken555

klpca said:


> I had read on another thread (tripadvisor I think) that some showed up without any testing at all - so they certainly wouldn't have a QR code. Whether they just didn't realize that they could opt out of testing or not, I don't know. But people are amazing sometimes.



I haven't been following this thread very closely (and I'm feeling much better by not reading it daily, FWIW) but why aren't the airlines checking if passengers have this clearance before they board? I wouldn't want to be on a plane with anyone who hasn't been tested, especially if that's the requirement to exit the destination airport. Or, better, why isn't Hawaii sending authorized reps to do the screening at the departing airport? Perhaps this has been answered in a previous post.


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## DeniseM

You aren't required to have a test - you can still choose to go into quarantine instead.   If you come without a test, and get tested in Hawaii, you still have to go into quarantine. You get the QR code when you enter your info into the Safe Travels Program. Over 3,000 if the travelers from the first day were residents, and from the articles I ready, it sounds like many of them were choosing to go home and go into quarantine.

The new online *Safe Travels program *is mandatory for all travelers entering Hawaii, effective Sept. 1, 2020. This new digital program, which collects the required health and travel information, is critical to protecting the health of our residents and visitors alike. Safe Travels is one part of a multi-layered screening process which includes arrival temperature checks, and secondary screening for those with symptoms or temperatures of 100.4 degrees Fahrenheit or higher. *Travelers are encouraged to enter their information and trip details well in advance of their flight. Once their health information is entered within 24 hours of departure, travelers will receive a QR code via email*. *The QR code on their mobile device or printed on paper gets scanned by the airport screener upon arrival. All passengers will be required to have a valid email address to receive the QR code. *More information on the process can be found by clicking here. A direct link to the program form can be found by visiting https://travel.hawaii.gov​


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## JanT

Hopefully you can print it at your hotel.  Our test results came back in about 18 hours after we took them so yours might come back as quickly and you can print them before you leave.  If not, most likely they will by the time you get to SFO and can print them out.  If you can’t print them out, I’m fairly certain you could show them the results on your phone and they would accept that.  They just want to see the results and verify that the info on the test matches your ID and that it was negative.  But, that’s not a definite and I wouldn’t count on it.  

I hope all goes well for you!!



amy241 said:


> Many east coast passengers like myself will be traveling when our results are emailed. I have 2 legs (FLL-SFO and SFO-HNL) on 2 separate days with an overnight at SFO. While I can upload a PDF of the results, how is someone in my position supposed to have a paper copy as well?


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## JanT

I’m sure there were more than a few.  I felt bad for one elderly lady because she didn’t have one and spent the whole flight running back and forth talking to the flight crew about how to get it.  I think they got her squared away though.  



csodjd said:


> I wonder how many people have no clue what a QR code is.
> 
> I read that at least some of the airlines are working to coordinate their landing times so that they don't have too many flights arrive at the same time. That too would help.


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## TravelTime

I voted for Feb 2021. That is seeming pretty realistic now. Either Feb 2021 or sooner!


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## controller1

TravelTime said:


> I voted for Feb 2021. That is seeming pretty realistic now. Either Feb 2021 or sooner!



I hope you're correct as that is when our next Maui reservation is!


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## klpca

Supposedly oversight is supposed to transfer from whoever is running it now to the Dept of Health on the first of the year, so probably more growing pains then. This is always going to be a bit of a pita going forward.


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## DeniseM

TravelTime said:


> I voted for Feb 2021. That is seeming pretty realistic now. Either Feb 2021 or sooner


The poll was for the the current opening (Oct. 15th) with restrictions.  If you are talking about Hawaii opening with no restrictions, I'd say there is no chance for Feb. 21.  IMNSHO - I'd say they won't open until vaccines are available to everyone, and mainland infection rates are much lower. YMMV


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## b2bailey

DeniseM said:


> You aren't required to have a test - you can still choose to go into quarantine instead.   If you come without a test, and get tested in Hawaii, you still have to go into quarantine. You get the QR code when you enter your info into the Safe Travels Program. Over 3,000 if the travelers from the first day were residents, and from the articles I ready, it sounds like many of them were choosing to go home and go into quarantine.
> 
> The new online *Safe Travels program *is mandatory for all travelers entering Hawaii, effective Sept. 1, 2020. This new digital program, which collects the required health and travel information, is critical to protecting the health of our residents and visitors alike. Safe Travels is one part of a multi-layered screening process which includes arrival temperature checks, and secondary screening for those with symptoms or temperatures of 100.4 degrees Fahrenheit or higher. *Travelers are encouraged to enter their information and trip details well in advance of their flight. Once their health information is entered within 24 hours of departure, travelers will receive a QR code via email*. *The QR code on their mobile device or printed on paper gets scanned by the airport screener upon arrival. All passengers will be required to have a valid email address to receive the QR code. *More information on the process can be found by clicking here. A direct link to the program form can be found by visiting https://travel.hawaii.gov​


I was surprised about 3,000 residents returning the first day. Made me wonder what they've been doing on the mainland. IMHO, this seems like the group most likely to infect others if their residence includes other non quarantined people.


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## DeniseM

Now that Hawaii is open, it's time for the NEW AND IMPROVED Hawaii/COVID-19 poll and thread.

*HERE IT IS:* NEW POLL/NEW THREAD


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