# Starwood exercising ROFR option and the points program



## Syed (May 4, 2015)

I have watched Starwood exercise their ROFR option on WKORV and WKORVN properties consistently since February 2011. Except from last June to the end of January 2015, when they lowered the prices, the buy back numbers have been going up. Since Feb 2015 Starwood has become more aggressive in their buy backs and the numbers are quite a bit higher now. This is about the same time Starwood announced the development of the Westin Nanea Ocean Resort Villas, the addition of the Sheraton Kauai, Sheraton Steamboat, and the Westin Cabo, PV and Cancun and spinning off the timeshare portion to go public. 

What seems odd to me is I have been told by many Westin owners and guests that the sales staff at the WKORV and WKORVN are pushing the St John property and only show very limited Maui inventory. The sales staff is telling people they will be offering a 'points' program when they start selling the Westin Nanea. Is this going to be Starpoints, or Staroptions or a new 'points' program? How will this affect current owners, Mandatory resort resale owners? Will they be able to book into these new resorts up to 8 months in advance? 

I also strongly believe Starwood currently owns quite a bit of WKORV and WKORVN inventory and I think Starwood is headed in the same direction as what Marriott did when they started the Destination points program nearly 5 years ago. I think Starwood will have two types of vacation ownership programs- deeded weeks  and Points based owners. 

My thoughts are based on the aggressive buying back of inventory and the sales staff promoting inventory in St John.  Other than these facts, I dont have much else to base my comments. I wanted to share my thoughts with the community.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 4, 2015)

Hi Syed, nice to hear from you.

We know Starwood is "spinning off" its timeshare business to another entity, or maybe creating a new entity.  We only own Sheraton Broadway Plantation and probably won't be affected terribly by the change.

Let's hope it's not Wyndham, one of the only resort chains that has no resorts on Maui.  But who knows?

The maintenance fees on Maui go up and up, even for ordinary little resorts like Hono Koa.  Our fees on our Koa units for our 2 bedrooms (3 annual weeks) are now $1,579.13 per week, with property taxes included.  I cannot imagine owning 3 Westin weeks with the upfront cost + fees annually.


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## DavidnRobin (May 4, 2015)

Hi Syed - Robin and I tried to find you (in Lahaina) to say 'Hi' during our last visit - but no luck.  We will be there again from Aug15-22.
We go where we own - so no interest in any type of points club.
These points will be more like the Marriott Destination Club I suppose (not SPs or SOs).

WSJ has 3 phases now:
VGV-Hillside (Mandatory) that has fixed weeks and fixed villas - with 3 seasons
BV (Voluntary) that has a mix of fixed and float weeks - with 3 seasons.
CV (Voluntary) is not really a points system (more like a Trust - with no direct deeds like VGV or BV), but they have attempted to balance the unfairness in MFs for owners of high vs. low seasons.

CV is what they are pushing. I do not know many details - but others have written about it (see WSJ thread).  We go to WSJ in June (31 days away!) - so I will check it out during our Owners Update.

Supposedly - there will be another phase after CV as WSJ gets rid of the hotel side.


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## Henry M. (May 4, 2015)

Seems like the Marriott system is now operational without too many complaints, after all the initial handwringing. I don't know a lot of details about it, though. I wonder what those with significant experience with it would think of a similar system implemented by Starwood for weeks owned in Hawaii?

I'm going to be on Maui July 17-24 and August 15-28. I'll see if I can find out any new information.


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## SueDonJ (May 4, 2015)

Despite not knowing very much at all about the Starwood products it seems the indicators that I've read on here sound very much like the indicators we Marriott owners were hearing prior to 1)Marriott, Int'l spinning off the timeshare division to a separate public company, Marriott Vacations Worldwide, and then 2)MVW introducing the new Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Club points product.  (Trying to be brief ... it's a Trust-supported product with all sales in the form of Points, but it also allows existing/eligible Weeks Owners to participate in the points system by paying a one-time enrollment fee and then choosing annually to either use the owned Weeks as deeded or to convert them to a specified number of DC Points for use in that program.  No changes were made to ineligible/unenrolled Weeks.)  Seems that a third wrinkle has been added for you this week with the news that Starwood (the parent company) is investigating options as a take-over or taken-over entity?

Since March there have been a few threads on this forum where some of us Marriott owners have tried to briefly explain the Marriott processes we went through.  If asked, when/if your changes come about we'll be happy then to go into more detail with yours that are known then to be similar to ours.  

I'm honestly shocked at the difference between the amount of speculation we discussed on the TUG Marriott forum back when rumors were swirling and the little bit occurring here.  Granted, speculation can result in a whole lot of tangents that will never come to pass, but if we hadn't speculated then we would have been completely lost, especially on Day 1 of the Points product because Marriott's official announcement was made on the day the change became effective.  The only thing we owners were given was an updated home page with "Exciting News!" fairly-useless blurbs and links to the new legal filings, which we were then able to slowly dissect and compare to our speculation.  It wasn't easy or pretty, believe me.  Good luck to all of you!

Syed, a couple things related directly to what you're noticing ... first, we didn't find the legal filings that Marriott had to submit prior to the DC implementation - of the Trust establishment or the Weeks which were conveyed to it - until after the product was announced.  If anybody here knows where/how to search for Starwood's legal filings then you might be more lucky than we were in that respect.  Second, Marriott's DC definitely upped the number of exercised ROFR's as well as the buyback/brokering of Weeks in Marriott's official Resales Operations.  (In many cases the offers made by that office to owners looking to sell are higher than what's available on the external resale market.)  There are other DC-related benefits that may or may not enhance every Marriott Weeks Owner but that one is pretty much universal to all of us because it's propping up the business, and MVW's VAC stock is doing very well.  It's acknowledged by all of us, whether we're participating in the Points program or not, that if it fails we're all going to be in trouble.


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## DeniseM (May 4, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> I'm honestly shocked at the difference between the amount of speculation we discussed on the TUG Marriott forum back when rumors were swirling and the little bit occurring here.



Hi Sue - I think the main difference is that very few of the regulars here are interested in the new points program, because: 

1)  Most of us either are already in the CURRENT timeshare points program (Staroptions.)

OR

2)  We own resale/voluntary deeds, with no Staroptions, and they are not included in the points program.

At this point, owners are not being offered a chance to pay a fee to "buy-in" - it's not being offered the same way that Marriott rolled their program out.


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## SueDonJ (May 4, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Hi Sue - I think the main difference is that very few of the regulars here are interested in the new points program, because:
> 
> 1)  Most of us either are already in the CURRENT timeshare points program (Staroptions.)
> 
> ...



Something to consider - Marriott didn't ever/still doesn't allow external resales to participate in the Marriott Rewards Points exchanges (acknowledging that there are differences between MRP and Staroptions.)  But at the DC introduction owners of external-resales purchased prior to that day were given the option to enroll them with all of the same benefits/rules as existing direct-purchase Weeks, excepting only a different one-time enrollment fee schedule and a limited MR affiliation.

Not saying something similar will or won't happen for you when/if your new thing is officially rolled out, just something to keep in mind.


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## DeniseM (May 4, 2015)

That may be, but Starwood has already rolled this out, and the chance to "buy in for a fee" is not being offered.  It would seem odd to start offering it later, but who knows!

Since the top resorts are already in the current Staroption program, it's hard to imagine how owners at those resort would go for it, although I'm sure Starwood would dress it all up and make it seem like the greatest deal ever, and there are a lot of gullible (non-Tugger) owners out there.


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## lizap (May 4, 2015)

The key is flexibility and adapting to change.  If you don't like whatever changes occur, if any, (speculation at this point), you can always use your deeded week at your resort or sell (if you can).  You've got to make whatever system is in place work for you.  Nothing really surprises me, when profit is the primary motive..


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## SueDonJ (May 4, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> That may be, but Starwood has already rolled this out, and the chance to "buy in for a fee" is not being offered.  It would seem odd to start offering it later, but who knows!
> 
> Since the top resorts are already in the current Staroption program, it's hard to imagine how owners at those resort would go for it, although I'm sure Starwood would dress it all up and make it seem like the greatest deal ever, and there are a lot of gullible (non-Tugger) owners out there.



That sounds more convoluted than Marriott's system!  If Starwood is keeping the existing Weeks completely separate from the new Trust-supported program, does that mean all future Starwood (or whatever the new timeshare entity will be) resorts will not be available to the existing Weeks owners, sold only as Points?  Or will future Starwood developments be sold as Weeks AND Points?

(And for what it's worth, owners of the highest-value/demand Marriott Weeks really do get added value from being enrolled in the DC.  Marriott of course plays it up but TUGgers' experience bears it out.)

See!  This is what we did on the Marriott board, trying to figure out what the future would bring!  But I'll give it a rest now, don't want to make you as crazy as we were.


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## DeniseM (May 4, 2015)

In a nutshell - we don't know, because Starwood has not made an official release of the details - what we, know, we know from sales presentations.  None of the regulars think what they are offering is a good deal, because it's significantly more expensive than other options.

As of right now we have:

1)  Weeks only:  No points (Staroptions) - just deeded weeks - "voluntary"

2)  Weeks with Staroptions - "mandatory"

3)  New Points program, but only including a few resorts, so far.


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## tschwa2 (May 4, 2015)

I might as well speculate too.

The new trust will have the WKORVNN and the ROFR Hawaii properties.  This way they can sell more inventory before the project is completed with the promise that all of the trust is available 12-8 months.  My concern is how they will deal with views.  They can either deal with it by making better views cost more points in the new property and/or prioritizing views in WKORV and WKORVN in the trust as earlier time date stamps and therefore technically no view assigned but priority above other SO exchanges into those properties.  

They won't have the problem they will have with the Vistanta trust because the lack of seasons means all of the weeks will have basically the same staroptions per MF so it won't skew it much higher than if a person bought the deeded week resale at the existing Hawaii properties.

They could make it voluntary if they wanted so that the Hawaiian trust owners would have H(awaiian) T(rust) SO's from 12 months- check in but if they wanted to exchange into anything outside of the trust they would have to use II.

They will sell it as not only do you have priority at this resort but all the weeks in the trust before other SO exchangers.  You are also more likely to get a better view than if you use a deeded week to exchange at 8 months.  This way if you want Maui this year and Princeville the next you don't have to worry.  They may add other high end new properties into this trust but will have to deal with the seasonality of MF's.  This will also allow them to sell Hawaii at a lower price points because they could sell just enough so that someone can bank and borrow 3 years to get enough for a week or even for a Mon-Friday and then talk up using a CC to get more starpoints to stay in a hotel during the weekends.  They can add high transfer fees to trust points along with the ROFR so they win either way.


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## SMHarman (May 4, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> In a nutshell - we don't know, because Starwood has not made an official release of the details - what we, know, we know from sales presentations.  None of the regulars think what they are offering is a good deal, because it's significantly more expensive than other options.
> 
> As of right now we have:
> 
> ...


3a. WSJ CV points program. 
3b. Florida / Myrtle Beach, Starwood AZ points program.


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## Syed (May 4, 2015)

tschwa2 said:


> I might as well speculate too.
> 
> The new trust will have the WKORVNN and the ROFR Hawaii properties.  This way they can sell more inventory before the project is completed with the promise that all of the trust is available 12-8 months.  My concern is how they will deal with views.  They can either deal with it by making better views cost more points in the new property and/or prioritizing views in WKORV and WKORVN in the trust as earlier time date stamps and therefore technically no view assigned but priority above other SO exchanges into those properties.
> 
> ...



 You make some very good points!
Starwood allots the same Staroptions and Starpoints valuations for all 2 bedroom units at both Westin Kaanapali resorts. 
When I stay in any hotel on the beach-- it is cheaper to rent a room with a garden view than an oceanfront or ocean view room. 
Could they recalculate  an oceanfront unit have a higher point valuation than an island view unit, if it is part of a new entity? I think they make a new set of rules.
They could recycle this inventory they have bought back into a new Club point based program, where it will take more points, Staroptions to stay in an oceanfront or ocean view unit.


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## PamMo (May 4, 2015)

Syed said:


> Could they recalculate  an oceanfront unit have a higher point valuation than an island view unit, if it is part of a new entity? I think they make a new set of rules.
> They could recycle this inventory they have bought back into a new Club point based program, where it will take more points, Staroptions to stay in an oceanfront or ocean view unit.



Absolutely! Starwood can allocate points any way they want. When Marriott started the Destinations Club, an oceanFRONT unit cost significantly more points to reserve than an ocean, island, or garden view. I think that makes perfect sense, as people will pay a premium for a good view. This roll out is all about making money for the Starwood timeshare division.


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## pacman777 (May 4, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> Something to consider - Marriott didn't ever/still doesn't allow external resales to participate in the Marriott Rewards Points exchanges (acknowledging that there are differences between MRP and Staroptions.)  But at the DC introduction owners of external-resales purchased prior to that day were given the option to enroll them with all of the same benefits/rules as existing direct-purchase Weeks, excepting only a different one-time enrollment fee schedule and a limited MR affiliation.
> 
> Not saying something similar will or won't happen for you when/if your new thing is officially rolled out, just something to keep in mind.



Sue - how much was the fee to enroll resale purchased properties into the points program?


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## GregT (May 4, 2015)

pacman777 said:


> Sue - how much was the fee to enroll resale purchased properties into the points program?



I think that someone who had purchased a single week direct was $595, two or more weeks direct was $695, and any resale weeks (one or more) was $1,995.  Obviously Starwood is different as a direct purchaser is already in StarOptions.

Now, it is $2,395 regardless of the source of purchasing weeks -- and they will routinely waive this if someone buys Trust Points.

I agree with something Syed speculated on - that they could revalue the views.  In hindsight, this was an obvious thing for Marriott to do and would make sense for Starwood as well.

Best,

Greg


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## pacman777 (May 4, 2015)

GregT said:


> I think that someone who had purchased a single week direct was $595, two or more weeks direct was $695, and any resale weeks (one or more) was $1,995.  Obviously Starwood is different as a direct purchaser is already in StarOptions.
> 
> Now, it is $2,395 regardless of the source of purchasing weeks -- and they will routinely waive this if someone buys Trust Points.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info. Interesting concept. I would definitely consider turning my voluntary Plat+ Westin Desert Willow 2BR to have Staroptions for $3k ONLY if the maintenance fees of buying into the trust or points system is the same or similar to current annual maintenance fees of the deeded unit that I currently have.  For some reason I have a feeling it will be significantly higher


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## GregT (May 4, 2015)

pacman777 said:


> Thanks for the info. Interesting concept. I would definitely consider turning my voluntary Plat+ Westin Desert Willow 2BR to have Staroptions for $3k ONLY if the maintenance fees of buying into the trust or points system is the same or similar to current annual maintenance fees of the deeded unit that I currently have.  For some reason I have a feeling it will be significantly higher



If Starwood were to overlay the same concept as Marriott, what would happen is that you would pay $1,995 to "enroll" your WDW week.  It's not a permanent trade of your week, but really just requalifying your week to get StarOptions, as we've seen Starwood to from time to time.

Now, every year, you would pay the SVN fee of $134 (or whatever it is) and you would make a voluntary election to redeem your week for StarOptions for that year only.  

So, for 2016, you could decide (by September 2015) that you want to forego your home week reservation, and instead take 148,100 StarOptions, which you can presumably bank/reserve/etc.

For 2017, you could decent not to elect for StarOptions, and instead just book a home resort week as per usual.

In this manner, it's a year by year election.  I will be curious to see what Starwood does, if anything.

Best,

Greg


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## lizap (May 5, 2015)

I seriously doubt Starwood is going to allow people to basically convert their voluntary resort to a mandatory resort for such a nominal fee..  What is more likely to happen is that a group of resorts (voluntary) will be grouped together as part of the new points system.  The new Maui resort may very well be a part of it.  Current mandatory resorts will most likely not be affected.  So far this seems to be the direction Starwood is taking.   Many Marriott owners were/are unhappy with the DC system; I doubt Starwood will take this approach..




GregT said:


> If Starwood were to overlay the same concept as Marriott, what would happen is that you would pay $1,995 to "enroll" your WDW week.  It's not a permanent trade of your week, but really just requalifying your week to get StarOptions, as we've seen Starwood to from time to time.
> 
> Now, every year, you would pay the SVN fee of $134 (or whatever it is) and you would make a voluntary election to redeem your week for StarOptions for that year only.
> 
> ...


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## SueDonJ (May 5, 2015)

pacman777 said:


> Thanks for the info. Interesting concept. I would definitely consider turning my voluntary Plat+ Westin Desert Willow 2BR to have Staroptions for $3k ONLY if the maintenance fees of buying into the trust or points system is the same or similar to current annual maintenance fees of the deeded unit that I currently have.  For some reason I have a feeling it will be significantly higher





GregT said:


> If Starwood were to overlay the same concept as Marriott, what would happen is that you would pay $1,995 to "enroll" your WDW week.  It's not a permanent trade of your week, but really just requalifying your week to get StarOptions, as we've seen Starwood to from time to time.
> 
> Now, every year, you would pay the SVN fee of $134 (or whatever it is) and you would make a voluntary election to redeem your week for StarOptions for that year only.
> 
> ...



I agree with Greg but just a note here about Marriott MF's.  Along with the one-time enrollment fee and DC Club Dues of +/-$200 annually (correlated to an SVN Club fee, I assume?,) all like Marriott Weeks (regardless of whether they're enrolled or not, and if enrolled regardless of whether Points are elected for the given Use Year) are invoiced the same MF's amount, direct from the resorts.  The only Marriott Owners who pay MF's based on Points ownership are those who purchase Points; those bills are invoiced by the DC Trustee and also include the same annual DC Club Dues.


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## pacman777 (May 5, 2015)

I was speculating that Starwood would take my deeded voluntary Westin Desert Willow (WDW) and put it into their "trust" in exchange for 148,100 staroptions to use on resorts that are in this trust for whatever fee they end up setting. however, my new maintenance fee would be a blend/average (plus probably some markup) of all the maintenance fees of the various resorts in the trust. So instead of a deeded week at WDW and paying MFs of ~$1600 specific to WDW only, if I traded-in/"upgraded" into their Points/Trust program, then I would give-up my deeded week for the 148.1k staroptions to be used on resorts and weeks available in the trust.  This is purely speculation and not sure if it makes best business sense for Starwood


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## lizap (May 5, 2015)

xx deleted xx




pacman777 said:


> I was speculating that Starwood would take my deeded voluntary Westin Desert Willow (WDW) and put it into their "trust" in exchange for 148,100 staroptions to use on resorts that are in this trust for whatever fee they end up setting. however, my new maintenance fee would be a blend/average (plus probably some markup) of all the maintenance fees of the various resorts in the trust. So instead of a deeded week at WDW and paying MFs of ~$1600 specific to WDW only, if I traded-in/"upgraded" into their Points/Trust program, then I would give-up my deeded week for the 148.1k staroptions to be used on resorts and weeks available in the trust.  This is purely speculation and not sure if it makes best business sense for Starwood


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## SMHarman (May 5, 2015)

pacman777 said:


> I was speculating that Starwood would take my deeded voluntary Westin Desert Willow (WDW) and put it into their "trust" in exchange for 148,100 staroptions to use on resorts that are in this trust for whatever fee they end up setting. however, my new maintenance fee would be a blend/average (plus probably some markup) of all the maintenance fees of the various resorts in the trust. So instead of a deeded week at WDW and paying MFs of ~$1600 specific to WDW only, if I traded-in/"upgraded" into their Points/Trust program, then I would give-up my deeded week for the 148.1k staroptions to be used on resorts and weeks available in the trust.  This is purely speculation and not sure if it makes best business sense for Starwood


With those California week's at Plat+ being cheaper to buy because of the vol nature this thread had me speculating if one would be a good buy because of this.


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## lizap (May 5, 2015)

Not a bet I would want to make...




SMHarman said:


> With those California week's at Plat+ being cheaper to buy because of the vol nature this thread had me speculating if one would be a good buy because of this.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 5, 2015)

Marriott resales after 2010 do not get any offers into the DC.  Sure, I can buy something from them, but no deals for our resale weeks.  It's been easy to say no to all presentations for that reason.

I hope Starwood offers something to resale owners.  We own quite a few SBP.  Might be nice of them to welcome us into the point system.  Doubt they will.


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## SMHarman (May 5, 2015)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Marriott resales after 2010 do not get any offers into the DC.  Sure, I can buy something from them, but no deals for our resale weeks.  It's been easy to say no to all presentations for that reason.
> 
> I hope Starwood offers something to resale owners.  We own quite a few SBP.  Might be nice of them to welcome us into the point system.  Doubt they will.


2010 was the DC announcement date?


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## tschwa2 (May 5, 2015)

The difference with Marriott is they never had a US points program.  They needed to weeks from the sold out resorts to offer new trust members, hence the offer for enrollement.  Starwood vacations can already offer SVN at 8 months out to new trust members.  They have no reason to allow non SVN members from voluntary resorts an opportunity to ever access trust inventory at a nominal price.  

Cindy, 
At SBP the most you could hope for is an opportunity to join SVN for less than $10,000 by reliquishing your deeds and joining the Vistana trust.  This wonderful opportunity  will also allow you to almost double your MF's if you want to be able to book the same number of summer units that you can now.  Smart TUGers will know to run screaming from that offer.


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## LisaRex (May 5, 2015)

Gawd, I hate these convoluted programs.   Why can't they be simple, so that mere mortals don't need a degree to understand the program? 

IMO they will definitely require more trust points for OF and OF. Weeks owners paid a premium up front for an upgraded view.  Trust owners don't do that.  (FYI, I don't see a reason why they don't change up the SVN program and give OF and OV owners more SOs for converting, even at this late date.  Why should an IV unit be worth the same SOs as an OV unit?)  

I can't imagine that Starwood will not allow weeks owners to exchange into Nanea and WSJ-CV (plus San Diego expansion, etc).  Why? Because they want to sell these new properties.   There is no way that they're going to tell Nanea owners that the only two places in their network are their home resort and WSJ-CV.  No, they're going to print up a glossy brochure that lists all the SVN resorts. And if they allow these owners to trade into SVN resorts, they'll have to allow SVN owners to trade into trust resorts. 

Besides, they'll want current owners to see these new resorts so that they can prospect them on new ownership. 

Also, from a PR perspective, it would be really crappy for them to put up a wall between the two programs from an SVN owner perspective.  Yes, Starwood can change their program at any time, but if they piss off their existing customers, what have they gained?  No one likes to feel cheated.


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## lizap (May 5, 2015)

I don't think the existing StarOptions system for mandatory resorts will be touched.  Pretty clear to me they are creating a separate system for some of the existing voluntary resorts and perhaps some of the new resorts that they are adding.  Letting someone who paid relatively little for a voluntary resort pay a nominal fee to get StarOptions that can now be used throughout the Starwood system is highly unlikely, IMO...




LisaRex said:


> Gawd, I hate these convoluted programs.   Why can't they be simple, so that mere mortals don't need a degree to understand the program?
> 
> IMO they will definitely require more trust points for OF and OF. Weeks owners paid a premium up front for an upgraded view.  Trust owners don't do that.  (FYI, I don't see a reason why they don't change up the SVN program and give OF and OV owners more SOs for converting, even at this late date.  Why should an IV unit be worth the same SOs as an OV unit?)
> 
> ...


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## tschwa2 (May 5, 2015)

I think the only wall between the new trust and SVN IMO is going to be the timing.  Trust will have multi home resorts and first dibs into all of the trust properties during home resort priority.    

If they offer view categories for SVN into the Hawaiian properties it will only be for the units actually in the trust which will include all of the new building.  I think SVN exchanges into non trust Hawaiian Maui;s will be as it always has been no view designated for SVN reservations.


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## SueDonJ (May 5, 2015)

SMHarman said:


> 2010 was the DC announcement date?



Yes, 6/20/10 in the US/Caribbean, later in Europe.  It hasn't (yet?) been introduced in the Asia-Pacific area.

During the Marriott speculation there were two trains of thought about picking up inexpensive resales prior to the announcement.  For what it's worth the gamble paid off for those who did because Marriott allowed enrollments of any Weeks purchased prior to the rollout.  (I was on the other side, thinking that there was too much risk knowing that something new was coming but not knowing the details of what it would be or how existing ownerships would be affected.)

Looking back there's nothing that was said officially by Marriott to foretell that the gamble would pay off, but it's another thing that if we had found the legal filings prior to the announcement then maybe we would have been able to put two and two together.


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## LisaRex (May 5, 2015)

lizap said:


> I don't think the existing StarOptions system for mandatory resorts will be touched.  Pretty clear to me they are creating a separate system for some of the existing voluntary resorts and perhaps some of the new resorts that they are adding.  Letting someone who paid relatively little for a voluntary resort pay a nominal fee to get StarOptions that can now be used throughout the Starwood system is highly unlikely, IMO...



I agree.  I was speaking about SVN participants, not voluntary owners, being allowed to exchange into the new "Trust" resorts and vice versa.  If they allow voluntary resale owners to join anything, it would be the Trust program, because it's a clever way of detangling points from MFs.


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## DavidnRobin (May 5, 2015)

Read the CCRs for WKORV/N - while a potential for regional vacation club is listed, it was created for break-off from SVN. Otherwise, having 'Points Club' Members as equals (or better) than deeded HomeResort Owners (not in 'Club') is a real stretch in speculation.  The CCRs would have to be seriously amended.  While the HOA is controlled by SVO, this would be a reach to incorporate such changes without huge legal hurdles.


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## PamMo (May 5, 2015)

Going back to Syed's original post, it seems entirely possible that Starwood is aggressively exercising ROFR on WKORV and WKORVN units to enroll them into whatever this new system is going to be (similar to what Marriott did to provide units for Destinations Club members). Starwood can cherry pick units being sold on the resale market to make them available to buyers in the new system - with whatever rules they set up. Otherwise, why build inventory in WKRORV/WKORVN, but have the Maui sales team push WSJ-CV and Nanea points?


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## lizap (May 5, 2015)

Another plausible explaination:  buy units at a lower price, sell at a higher price to make a profit..




PamMo said:


> Going back to Syed's original post, it seems entirely possible that Starwood is aggressively exercising ROFR on WKORV and WKORVN units to enroll them into whatever this new system is going to be (similar to what Marriott did to provide units for Destinations Club members). Starwood can cherry pick units being sold on the resale market to make them available to buyers in the new system - with whatever rules they set up. Otherwise, why build inventory in WKRORV/WKORVN, but have the Maui sales team push WSJ-CV and Nanea points?


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## PamMo (May 5, 2015)

lizap said:


> Another plausible explaination:  buy units at a lower price, sell at a higher price to make a profit..



You'd think that, but from what I heard from owners doing "updates" last month, sales wasn't offering WKROV and WKORVN units. They were pushing WSJ-CV points, and touting the new Nanea resort (saying it would be points based, too).


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## vacationtime1 (May 5, 2015)

lizap said:


> Another plausible explaination:  buy units at a lower price, sell at a higher price to make a profit..



Except Starwood is apparently not trying hard to sell the units at this time, and if Nanea really happens, they will have plenty of inventory to sell in a year or two.

What strikes me is that Starwood will have *enormous* Hawaii inventory for any new trust program it creates:  all of the ROFR'd units at WKORV/N, the entire Nanea project, unsold inventory at Princeville, and the recently announced Sheraton Kauai in Poipu.


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## LisaRex (May 5, 2015)

lizap said:


> Another plausible explaination:  buy units at a lower price, sell at a higher price to make a profit..



Or, they are building up inventory to put into the Trust so that folks who buy in the Trust have immediate inventory available for exchange.


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## DeniseM (May 5, 2015)

LisaRex said:


> Or, they are building up inventory to put into the Trust so that folks who buy in the Trust have immediate inventory available for exchange.



That makes sense…  And in the meantime, they will rent them.


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## SueDonJ (May 5, 2015)

LisaRex said:


> Or, they are building up inventory to put into the Trust so that folks who buy in the Trust have immediate inventory available for exchange.



Exactly what Marriott did, and is still doing.  DC Trust conveyances are ongoing.


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## okwiater (May 5, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> That makes sense…  And in the meantime, they will rent them.


This follows the exact pattern of behavior that occurred prior to the Sheraton Flex rollout. Starwood bought up excess inventory and did not offer it for sale. Instead, they stockpiled it for initial supply to the Flex program. I am hearing that a similar Westin Flex program will be rolled out as well.


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## PamMo (May 5, 2015)

vacationtime1 said:


> ...and if Nanea really happens...



Nanea is really happening! Starwood has made a few announcements, Maui County had an official ground breaking/blessing ceremony, and construction was certainly going strong at Nanea last month when I was there. They are no longer just moving dirt around to keep their permit active.


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## vacationtime1 (May 5, 2015)

PamMo said:


> Nanea is really happening! Starwood has made a few announcements, Maui County had an official ground breaking/blessing ceremony, and construction was certainly going strong at Nanea last month when I was there. They are no longer just moving dirt around to keep their permit active.



I know that construction has started.  But we have all seen half-finished construction projects.  The remainder of my post assumed that Nanea is built and marketed, but nothing is for certain.


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## canesfan (May 5, 2015)

In our update, I was told several times that any leftover inventory would be added to the trust. When I inquired about the properties that were Westin vs Sheraton I was told all would be put into trusts. The only property that our sales person said there were legal issues with the resort & trust was Mexico. I was told that would include HI and leftover inventory of the North & South properties.
It was obvious we were not buying Flex SO but we were offered only the amount that would get us to be 5*. What I should've discussed was how those SO worked in the system vs my current SO. We spent too much time with the sales person arguing over the fact that I didn't need to own where I wanted to vacation. She was trying to convince me that a 8 month reservation was as good as gold (that 12-8mo wasn't valuable). Which leads me to believe that these Flex SO are 8 month reservations.


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## okwiater (May 6, 2015)

canesfan said:


> She was trying to convince me that a 8 month reservation was as good as gold (that 12-8mo wasn't valuable). Which leads me to believe that these Flex SO are 8 month reservations.



No, Flex Options are a StarOptions-like currency which allow you to reserve any resort in the trust (where the trust has availability) at 12-8 months. At 8 months, the Flex Options become normal StarOptions automatically and can be used to book anything in the SVN (where SVN has availability).

Managing the available inventory for all these programs must be a nightmare!


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## canesfan (May 6, 2015)

Well the Sheraton Flex were as expensive as my Maui property worked out to be if you broke those into price per SO. Obviously the new Maui property is going to be priced at a premium vs the 5 properties in the Sheraton Flex trust.  I'd hate to hear what price per SO that will be!


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## LisaRex (May 6, 2015)

canesfan said:


> Well the Sheraton Flex were as expensive as my Maui property worked out to be if you broke those into price per SO. Obviously the new Maui property is going to be priced at a premium vs the 5 properties in the Sheraton Flex trust.  I'd hate to hear what price per SO that will be!



I don't think the price per SO will be significantly higher.  It'll be the number of SOs required that will be the difference. Well, and the purchase price, of course.


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## tschwa2 (May 6, 2015)

Another thing they can do when selling trust points is sell smaller packages and allow 1-6 night bookings at 12 months or 11 months.  Since at least initially I think they will get more takers in the smaller ranges (due to expense) by the time it gets to 8 months general SO bookings the remains might look like Swiss cheese,


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## mjm1 (May 11, 2015)

We attended a sales presentation at WKORVN a few weeks ago and had a very nice conversation with the rep. She didn't share much information about the program, but I believe she mentioned that one of the leaders in the Starwood program came from Marriott.  Hence, there are some similarities between them. 

I would expect the new properties to be available to existing owners, because they want to market the wide range of resorts available to those who buy into the new points program. Much the same as what Marriott has done. As someone else mentioned, Starwood already has SO's whereas Marriott didn't have anything like that.

This will be very interesting to see how it develops.

Mike


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