# [2008] Why is Sheraton Mountain Vista so cheap?



## thinze3 (Nov 10, 2008)

I am watching an eBay auction for a 2BR EOY Sheraton Mountain Vista unit. It has prime floating ski season usage.  It appeasr to have the ability to lock-off into TWO 1BR units. Why is it so cheap?

What are the pros and cons of owning here? We own down the street at Christie Lodge and very much like the Beaver Creek/ Vail area.


Terry


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 10, 2008)

The fees are high.  They didn't used to be that high, but they are crazy high now.  Short explanation, but that's the long and short of it.


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## thinze3 (Nov 10, 2008)

RLG said:


> Sheraton Mountain Vista maintenance fees finally up on MyStarcentral.
> 
> 2 bedroom lockoff went from 847.35 to 1050.17.  (All numbers include taxes but exclude ARDA and SVN fees.)
> 
> The fees excluding taxes are 976.34 for 2008 versus 765.85 for 2007.  That represents a *27% increase*.



Based on this old post, the fees seem to be in line with most large developer name ski resorts. Marriotts range in price from $950 to $1,250/yr.

There are no SVN fees, as this is a voluntary resort, correct?

Terry


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## djp (Nov 10, 2008)

Don't be fooled by the low bidding....two weeks ago what looks like the same week ended at $3700 only to not meet the reserve. I imagine the reserve on this biannual is around $4000, as the annual ski weeks normally go for around $10,000. It is likely that the bargain hunters who bid last time only to not meet the reserve, are sitting this one out, so if the seller has lowered the reserve, there could be a deal to be had. SMV is a nice resort, not ski in ski out, but other than that no complaints.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 10, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> Based on this old post, the fees seem to be in line with most large developer name ski resorts. Marriotts range in price from $950 to $1,250/yr.
> 
> There are no SVN fees, as this is a voluntary resort, correct?
> 
> Terry



I don't pay high fees on anything but Hawaii.  If you have a good week, you can trade into the ski resorts with a little planning.  So I don't see any reason to buy something with fees that high.  Makes it illogical to use as a trader.  

Maybe SBP will go up that much sometime, but I sure hope not.


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## myip (Nov 10, 2008)

The last one sold on Ebay was $5000 EOY.  It still have over 1 day to go...
THe lockoff is actually 2 , 1 bedroom units  The maintenance is not too bad if you look at lock off.. - approx $500 each side.


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## thinze3 (Nov 10, 2008)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I don't pay high fees on anything but Hawaii.  If you have a good week, you can trade into the ski resorts with a little planning.  So I don't see any reason to buy something with fees that high.  Makes it illogical to use as a trader.
> 
> Maybe SBP will go up that much sometime, but I sure hope not.



I have been looking at SDO and SBP as a way to get into the Starwood system and gain that 3 day preference but can't see myself using those locations very often in the future. Also, I would like to have the ability to retro to the full 141,800 SO's in the future.

I think SBP is the one of a few exceptions in terms of MF's for the Starwood system outside of Orlando. Most have very high fees the best I can tell. Look at the MF's of Mission Hills or Kierland. Those are outrageous in comparison to Mountain Vista but offer the same rental income ($2,400) and SO's if part of SVN.

All in all, Sheraton Mountain Vista appears to be a fair deal for a "brand name" timeshare IMO.


Terry 

.


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## RLG (Nov 10, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> IMountain Vista but offer the same rental income ($2,400)



I'd say the $2,400 figure is optimistic. _ [Out of compliance info. deleted.-DeniseM Moderator]
_


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## thinze3 (Nov 10, 2008)

RLG said:


> I'd say the $2,400 figure is optimistic.  I have President's Day week reserved at Mountain Vista am offering it for rent, including here on TUG.
> 
> My asking price is less than that.  If you know how to get more please let me know.



I should have worded it differently. The ASKING prices for all three resorts is about the same. Redweek's average asking price for a 2BR winter week at Mountain Vista is $2,495 which is about $200 more than Mission Hills for the same weeks.


Terry


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## Robert D (Nov 10, 2008)

Asking prices are irrelevant.  RLG, how much have your rented your 2BR ski week for in the past?  I've gotten $995 for a 1BR Eagle Point in Vail and $700 for a Falcon Point studio for a mid March spring break week, which I think is comparable in demand to President's week, but lower quality than SMV.  I don't see a 2BR SMV going for over $2K but I might be wrong.  My guess is more like $1,500 - $1,750 unless you have week 52.  There seem to be a lot of SMV weeks available.  I do think that the EOY week on Ebay will go a lot higher than where it's at now.  Ebay auction prices are meaningless until the auction is over since most of the action happens in the last two minutes.


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## thinze3 (Nov 11, 2008)

Robert D said:


> ... I do think that the EOY week on Ebay will go a lot higher than where it's at now.  Ebay auction prices are meaningless until the auction is over since most of the action happens in the last two minutes.



Well, I'm currently high bidder, but of course the reserve has not been met. I will continue to watch it.


Terry


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## jarta (Nov 11, 2008)

*Why is it so cheap?*

I do not own at Mountain Vista.  But, I stayed at Mountain Vista about 2 months ago.  Also, I do not ski so I am not an expert on ski resorts.  (Since you are familiar with the Avon area, most of this post could be stuff you already know.)

First, Mountain Vista has no air-conditioning.  This limits the desirability of the resort in the summer.  Fans in the rooms worked OK when I was there in mid-September.  In July or August, the rooms might not be comfortable.

Mountain Vista is furnished at the Sheraton, not Westin, level.  The decorating is a little tired and the rooms are pretty gloomy.  I expect that the level of the decorating will be taken care of by a special assessment.  (BTW, I see no advantage in putting a whirlpool bathtub in the bedroom, rather than the bathroom.  But, that's a personal preference.)  

Compared to other Westin time share locations, my wife and I felt a little cramped.  Storage (closet and drawer space) in the room was quite limited.

The new Westin resort and timeshares at Riverwalk in Avon is opening soon.  It will have a gondola lift at it's door up the mountain directly to Batchelor's Gulch (not Beaver Creek).  Mountain Vista is about 2-3 blocks away from the new lift.  I have no idea if using that lift will be for free or for pay for Mountain Vista owners.  Riverwalk is beautiful and posh.  Mountain Vista is utilitarian, by comparison.

Staying in Avon is not as convenient as staying at Beaver Creek or Batchelor's Gulch.  Avon is on the "flats" along the Interstate.  Beaver Creek and Batchelor's Gulch are way up the mountain where the slopes are.  Avon is a sleepy little town without much charm, IMO.  Avon is definitely not Vail, but it's obviously trying to become Vail-like.  Maybe it will succeed; maybe not.  (BTW, Avon is financing the push to become another Vail partially through a real estate transfer tax.  Since I am not a skier and not interested in buying in Colorado, I did not inquire about how that tax works.)

In the end, I must say the staff at Mountain Vista was extremely friendly, well-informed and helpful.  My wife and I found the concierge to be helpful and had a good time there.

     I don't know if the disadvantages of staying on the "flats' of Avon outweigh the advantages of staying further up the mountain at the two resorts or whether the new Westin is depressing prices at Mountain Vista as people who own at mountain Vista make an "upgrade" to Riverwalk.  But if you want a "no frills" ski experience in the middle of a charmless town populated by banks, strip-like malls and adequate restaurants and want to buy at an older, "voluntary" Starwood resort because you will visit every year, Mountain Vista may be for you.  For skiers, the great ski slopes that are nearby may trump everything else.


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## Floridaski (Nov 11, 2008)

*Avon - Vail transfer tax*

Why the town of Avon would want the Vail resort real estate transfer tax makes no sense to me.  The Vail resorts transfer tax is 2% of ANY real estate sale.  The transfer tax is normally paid by the buyer, not sure why Avon would want that tax added to their real estate sales unless some of the money goes back to the town.

Avon is certainly not Vail, Beaver Creek, Breck or Keystone and I am not sure how they could change the town to fit into the niches that the other resorts have created.  

I am not knocking Avon and we have stayed at the Mountain Vista twice without any major issues.  Avon just would not be my first choice for a ski vacation.  I think that a few people feel the same way and that is why you see Mountain Vista and other Avon timeshares selling for what appears to be a "deal"

Good luck and I would double check on the transfer tax - you really want to avoid that if possible.  It is paid each time the property changes title.  It is NOT a one time tax.


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## SDKath (Nov 11, 2008)

Do you guys think SMV is going to have an assessment sometime soon?  It sounds like it from your descriptions.  KL


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## thinze3 (Nov 11, 2008)

Jarta,
Thanks. This is what I am looking for - informative feedback. I was not aware that SMV had no air conditioning.   CL doesn't either, and it can get a bit uncomfortable on warm days. The good thing is you simply open the sliding door and things cool off quickly.

I have seen SMV, as the shuttle that stops at CL also stops near SMV. Yes, SMV is a little generic looking. It sounds as though the interiors are a bit like the Vistana Resort we stayed at in Orlando, nothing special, but still nice.

I believe I last saw SMV under constuction about 6 years ago. I sure hope they aren't do for a special assessment. If reserve fees have been assessed properly the HOA should have money to cover general upgrades.

Anyhow, I'm out. I am no longer high bidder. 

Terry


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## djp (Nov 11, 2008)

Alot of the resorts in the mountains lack air conditioning. I stayed at the Hyatt Mountain lodge at Beaver creek last summer and it had no air conditioning. The rooms at SMV can get a bit warm in the summer, they recently added portable air conditioners in the closets of each room that you can bring out if needed. Most times of year they would not be needed, it would be as simple as cracking a window. The furnishings, are not as nice as the westins, but definitely a step above the pre-renovation vistana units. I do not foresee a special assesment in the next few years, as things are in pretty good shape. For someone happy with skiing from Avon (which will only be getting better), who desires to gain starwood priority then SMV would be a good choice....especially if they had been happily staying at Christie Lodge....they will find SMV to be a huge upgrade. For someone that wants something nicer....the new Westin will fit that bill and only cost 5 x's as much.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 11, 2008)

Air conditioning in the mountains isn't at all necessary.  We have stayed in the mountains, specifically Breckenridge and Winter Park, in July and it snowed a foot several different visits.  I have also seen it close to 90 degrees in July, but it cools down to 50 at night, even when the temps are that hot in the day.  

Okay, well snow and the 90's aren't the norms, but it sure swings from one extreme to the other like that during many summers.  The nighttime lows in the summer are around 45 degrees, so air conditioning is all about opening the windows and letting the cold, crisp air in.  I love the cool air up in them thar hills.  

Going to Frisco this Sunday for a owners' meeting, and I am looking forward to seeing lots of snow.


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## RLG (Nov 11, 2008)

Robert D said:


> Asking prices are irrelevant.  RLG, how much have your rented your 2BR ski week for in the past?



Asking prices are very relevant if you're trying to point out that someone's estimate of market is too HIGH.  The fact that the ASKING price of my UNRENTED unit is lower than the OP's estimated rental value is pretty clear evidence that his estimated value is too high.  Suppose someone said they thought their house was worth 400k and I said I thought that was too high since their neighbor's identical house was listed for 350k but unsold.  Would you think it was an intelligent observation to point out that "asking prices are irrelevant"?



Robert D said:


> I don't see a 2BR SMV going for over $2K but I might be wrong.  My guess is more like $1,500 - $1,750 unless you have week 52.



SMV is a little unusual in that the 2br is actually 2 separate 1 bedrooms units, one larger than the other.  I think the highest rental value for SMV is as 2 separate 1 bedrooms.  _[Out of compliance Info. removed.-DeniseM Moderator]  _So I think the OP's estimated rental value for an average week is too high.



Robert D said:


> There seem to be a lot of SMV weeks available.



Not sure what you meant by this.  On Redweek there are only 3 different weeks available in 2009 (Weeks 1, 7 and 11)  The lowest priced 1br I][Out of compliance Info. removed.-DeniseM Moderator]  [/I]S is asking 1100.  The lowest price 2br is asking 2250.


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## RLG (Nov 11, 2008)

*Why is air conditioning relevant for a winter ski week?*



thinze3 said:


> I was not aware that SMV had no air conditioning.





djp said:


> Alot of the resorts in the mountains lack air conditioning.





rickandcindy23 said:


> Air conditioning in the mountains isn't at all necessary.



I'm curious.

Why is it relevant whether the resort has air conditioning in evaluating a winter SKI week?

I'm pretty confident air conditioning would not be required in February.


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## grgs (Nov 12, 2008)

RLG said:


> I'm curious.
> 
> Why is it relevant whether the resort has air conditioning in evaluating a winter SKI week?
> 
> I'm pretty confident air conditioning would not be required in February.



Yes, but many people vacation in Colorado in the summer.

Glorian


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 12, 2008)

Reserve wasn't met.  Watch for it again very soon.


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## thinze3 (Nov 12, 2008)

RLG said:


> Asking prices are very relevant if you're trying to point out that someone's estimate of market is too HIGH.  The fact that the ASKING price of my UNRENTED unit is lower than the OP's estimated rental value is pretty clear evidence that his estimated value is too high....
> 
> Not sure what you meant by this.  On Redweek there are only 3 different weeks available in 2009 (Weeks 1, 7 and 11)  The lowest priced 1br (mine) is asking 1100.  The lowest price 2br is asking 2250.



RLG, I still don't think you get the purpose of my posts about the Redweek rental asking prices.

Let's assume both Resort A and Resort B are of similar quality and have similar annual MF's. Let's also assume that both resorts have a similar and fair number of rental units listed on websites like Redweek. If the average ASKING price of Resort A is $2500 during its prime season, and the average ASKING price of resort B during its prime season is $1250, that does give one some sense of worth for comparison purposes of the two timeshares (or at least it does me).

If the annual MF's are equal to the asking price of the rental units and there are plenty of rental units available, then the resort is virtually valueless. If the annual MF's are less than half the average asking price of the rental units and there are plenty of rental units available, then the resort probably has much more value.  (Of course tradability, points systems and other variables also come into play.) IMHO

This was a very simple comparison tests that you seem to have taken way out of context.


Terry


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## thinze3 (Nov 12, 2008)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Reserve wasn't met.  Watch for it again very soon.



I stopped at $3,005.  

Terry


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## sml2181 (Nov 12, 2008)

Regarding rental prices...

I have rented 2 of my 09 SMV weeks and received more than the 2400$ mentioned by the op. Rentals came through in May and September and I do think that ski rentals seem to be hurting...just checked some rental websites. I also think that the good weeks are still in demand. 

A month ago (I think, maybe 5 weeks or so) I checked spg.com and I noticed that weeks 51, 52 and 7 (only weeks of interest to me) were available for a cash rack rate of 400$ per night, per 1 bedroom unit. If one would use the 50% off (using spg points) - it would not be interesting enough to rent from a private party. Obviously, that's just my opinion.
At the same time, Westin Riverfront studio units were available for 199$ per night. And we are using cash and points to stay at the St Regis Aspen during week 52, which I think is pretty rare during that specific week.
Just saying that it really may be the tough times making it harder to rent out your ski weeks.

Having said that - I forgot to delete my craigslist add SMV week 52 and I did receive multiple offers, all over 3500$. Of course I don't know if these rentals would have come through in the end - I chose to use II instead.

To me the SMV weeks are a great deal - I bought 1 for under 10K, 1 for 12K but paid more for fixed weeks. I had them requalified and I am a very happy owner (although I haven't actually stayed there yet - always end up going to the Valdoro in Breck.....or the St Regis in Aspen  ).


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## Robert D (Nov 12, 2008)

RLG said:


> Asking prices are very relevant if you're trying to point out that someone's estimate of market is too HIGH.  The fact that the ASKING price of my UNRENTED unit is lower than the OP's estimated rental value is pretty clear evidence that his estimated value is too high.  Suppose someone said they thought their house was worth 400k and I said I thought that was too high since their neighbor's identical house was listed for 350k but unsold.  Would you think it was an intelligent observation to point out that "asking prices are irrelevant"?





RLG said:


> The reason many asking prices are irrelevant is just what you described - was the $400K relevant?  or even the $350K?  Now if you had said that the closing price was $350 that's a different issue.  My experience is that most asking prices for TS's both for sale and rent are very inflated, especially on sites like Redweek.
> 
> Quote:
> SMV is a little unusual in that the 2br is actually 2 separate 1 bedrooms units, one larger than the other.  I think the highest rental value for SMV is as 2 separate 1 bedrooms.  I'm currently asking 1200 for a large 1br and 1100 for a small 1br for Presidents Day week.  Interestingly I have week 52 available and am only asking 1300.  So I think the OP's estimated rental value for an average week is too high.
> ...




There 26 weeks SMV weeks for rent on Vacation Timeshare Rentals (http://www.vacationtimesharerentals.com/United-States/Timeshares/Colorado/Avon/Sheraton's-Mountain-Vista/index.asp?RentalSort=Week&Sort=ASC#rentals) including several week 51/52. There also always seem to be quite a few SMV week available for exchange on II.

I'm not sure how to do this quote thing so the format is not the best but I tried to reply to each item above.


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## djp (Nov 13, 2008)

While there are always a ton of spring/fall smv weeks, and also quite a few summer weeks on II, I have not seen many prime ski weeks on II, I would find that surprising. A gold crown resort close to vail/beaver creek is going to be in high demand during prime ski weeks.


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## Twinkstarr (Nov 13, 2008)

djp said:


> While there are always a ton of spring/fall smv weeks, and also quite a few summer weeks on II, I have not seen many prime ski weeks on II, I would find that surprising. A gold crown resort close to vail/beaver creek is going to be in high demand during prime ski weeks.



In early May, Starwood did a big banking of ski weeks at SMV and LT. Jan-March. 

Now I did see it with the Starwood pref. but there were still some prime weeks left after the 3 days.


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## thinze3 (Nov 14, 2008)

There is now an annual 2BR winter week listed on eBay.  

Quick question for you owners, how difficult is it to book week 52? Now that would be nice, as it seems to be a week when all the kids are on the same schedule.


Terry


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## djp (Nov 14, 2008)

I dont think it would be hard at all at 12 months out. I have never tried for week 52, but have had no problem getting week 7.


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## RLG (Nov 14, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> RLG, I still don't think you get the purpose of my posts about the Redweek rental asking prices.
> 
> Let's assume both Resort A and Resort B are of similar quality and have similar annual MF's. Let's also assume that both resorts have a similar and fair number of rental units listed on websites like Redweek. If the average ASKING price of Resort A is $2500 during its prime season, and the average ASKING price of resort B during its prime season is $1250, that does give one some sense of worth for comparison purposes of the two timeshares (or at least it does me)...
> IMHO This was a very simple comparison tests that you seem to have taken way out of context.



If you were talking about a "normal" liquid market like price of a heavily traded stock, I would agree with you.  If all you know is that the asking price of stock A is double that of stock B, it would be reasonable to assume that actual trading levels will also be approximately double.  

Unfortunately, timeshares are far from that.  There are many people involved who, to put it generously, are less than sophisticated.  Take a look at the resale offerings for many properties and you'll see identical weeks offered at more than a 100% price difference.

I think both Robert D and I saw your use of asking prices as a red flag and were trying to be helpful to you and others in pointing out that in many markets asking prices might not have any relationship to reality.  

If I understand correctly, Robert D goes further and claims that asking prices  have no information value whatsoever.  I disagree with that as you can see below.


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## RLG (Nov 14, 2008)

Robert D, I think you and I are in agreement that asking prices don't necessarily equal market prices.

However, you said they were "irrelevant".  That's where we disagree.

Main Entry: rel·e·vant  
Pronunciation: \ˈre-lə-vənt\ 
Function: adjective 
1 a: having significant and demonstrable bearing on the matter at hand b: affording evidence tending to prove or disprove the matter at issue or under discussion <relevant testimony>


We have a situation where someone estimated told us his estimate of market rent for Sheraton Mountain Vista - $2400.  I pointed out that that was higher than the current asking prices.  That is "evidence tending to disprove" that the OP could expect to average $2400 renting out an SMV ski week.

Note from my post above this that I do understand that asking prices might be completely divorced from market reality.  However, they still represent a CEILING on market value.


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## RLG (Nov 14, 2008)

Robert D said:


> There 26 weeks SMV weeks for rent on Vacation Timeshare Rentals (http://www.vacationtimesharerentals.com/United-States/Timeshares/Colorado/Avon/Sheraton's-Mountain-Vista/index.asp?RentalSort=Week&Sort=ASC#rentals) including several week 51/52. There also always seem to be quite a few SMV week available for exchange on II



I as pointed out to the OP, I think his guess about the market rental for SMV was a little too high.  However, I think your data analysis is way off.

First, as was pointed out already, there are currently ZERO ski weeks available on II in 2009.  There have been few or none since the Starwood bulk bank many months ago.  That's a lot different than "quite a few".  Perhaps you didn't notice that the weeks that "always seem to be" available are usually mud weeks?

Second, I'm familiar with the site you linked.  There are actually 5 specific ski weeks that can be rented: 48, 51, 52, 1 and 7.  _[Out of compliance info. deleted.-DeniseM Moderator]_  Of the other three, week 1 is a 1br asking 2400, week 48 is a 2br asking 2000, and week 51 is a high demand week asking 2400/5000.


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## RLG (Nov 14, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> Quick question for you owners, how difficult is it to book week 52? Now that would be nice, as it seems to be a week when all the kids are on the same schedule.




Before I owned a week 52, I tried to wait list for it using one of my floating weeks.  Reservations told me that they were all sold as event weeks and that there was zero chance I would get one if I didn't own that week.  YMMV


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## DeniseM (Nov 14, 2008)

A gentle reminder - You may not describe your current rentals in the TUG forums, except in the most general sense.  No dates, unit size, or prices - please.


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## thinze3 (Nov 14, 2008)

RLG,
I did not realize that that SMV sold week 52 as a fixed week. This too is something knew to me. How can they sell some weeks as floating weeks which include week 52 and others as a fixed week 52?  

Thanks,
Terry


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## RLG (Nov 14, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> I did not realize that that SMV sold week 52 as a fixed week. This too is something knew to me. How can they sell some weeks as floating weeks which include week 52 and others as a fixed week 52?



I was certainly surprised when I found out that they advertised weeks as floating 48-52 when they knew that all of the 51 and 52s were going to be permanently unavailable.  

Once I remembered we were talking about the timeshare industry I was no longer surprised.


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## Robert D (Nov 15, 2008)

I don't know that much about SMV but I thought that the ski weeks were weeks 48-14, and if that's the case, it would be very misleading for them to have fixed week 51 & 52.  I own at Falcon Point and Eagle Point and my weeks are 48-50 and 1-14 but weeks 51 & 52 are fixed there.

Regarding my comment that asking prices are irrelevant, that may be a little strong and it really depends on the site that you're looking at the asking prices.  If you're looking at Timeshares Only on the price of their resale weeks, most all of those are totally irrelevant and grossly overpriced.  I look at the asking rental prices on Redweek, Vacation Timeshare Rentals, and My Resort Network, before pricing my rental weeks and always try to price them lower than most all that are listed.  My experience is that most of the listings on these sites for rent and especially for sale are done so poorly that it's hard to tell what they really have.  An example would be listing a 1BR unit for rent but not saying whether it's the small or large SMV (or other Starwood / other resort) unit.  There's a huge difference in the size and therefore the value of the small and large 1BR's at many Starwood resorts.  An example for sale would be that a large number of listings in Vail/Avon say they are floating weeks but don't spell out the specific floating period.  Fact is a floating ski week is worth quite a bit, a floating mud week is totally worthless, and a floating summer week is not worth much if anything at most of those resorts.  Thus, when you shake it all down, I've found that asking prices on most of these sites are not useful.


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## SDKath (Nov 15, 2008)

They can fix any week if you pay 10% over asking price.  But unless they are sold as "event weeks" (usually with a huge markup), they are only allowed to fix 50% of the units for a given week.  The other 50% is then available for the usual platinum float folks.

At least this is what I was told when we thought about fixing a Riverfront week 7.  Katherine


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## thinze3 (Nov 15, 2008)

SDKath said:


> They can fix any week if you pay 10% over asking price.  But unless they are sold as "event weeks" (usually with a huge markup), they are only allowed to fix 50% of the units for a given week.  The other 50% is then available for the usual platinum float folks.
> 
> At least this is what I was told when we thought about fixing a Riverfront week 7.  Katherine



Did Starwood ever come out with prices for Riverfront? I read the thread here a while back about a Tugger reporting a relatively low price that everyone seemd to question as being legit.

Terry


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 16, 2008)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sheraton-Mounta...3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66:4|65:1|39:1|240:1309

This is what happens when we talk up a resort on TUG.   

Where is the bidding going to end?  It's way higher than usual.  No Staroptions, and high maintenance fees, so I don't get it.


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## Pit (Nov 16, 2008)

rickandcindy23 said:


> This is what happens when we talk up a resort on TUG.
> 
> Where is the bidding going to end?  It's way higher than usual.  No Staroptions, and high maintenance fees, so I don't get it.



They have President's Week booked. Even so, price is way high.


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## djyamyam (Nov 16, 2008)

rickandcindy23 said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/Sheraton-Mounta...3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66:4|65:1|39:1|240:1309
> 
> This is what happens when we talk up a resort on TUG.
> 
> Where is the bidding going to end?  It's way higher than usual.  No Staroptions, and high maintenance fees, so I don't get it.





Pit said:


> They have President's Week booked. Even so, price is way high.



Actually, the price is not out of line.  Looking back to Jan 07, there haven't been very many 2BR winter weeks available on ebay, less than 10.  Of those annuals have sold between $9600 - $11000.  EOY units have sold between $4500 - 6250.  Granted, prices have dropped overall of higher end resorts, but this one hasn't because of its limited supply.  

In my opinion, if someone was wanting to buy at this resort, I would be looking at non-ebay sources to get one.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 16, 2008)

Something similar happened to a Kauai Beach Villas on eBay that was posted here as ocean view.  The seller told the winning bidder, who happend to be a TUG member, that this was a mistake, and that the week was not the building/ unit number listed, and would they take the week anyway.  Of course, the TUGger said he wouldn't take it.  This seller knew we were all watching and another person listed the same week right away, hoping for more money.  

My Point: The eBay sellers watch what we post, and when they see how interested we are in something, they make sure they get top dollar.  The sudden bid to $9,999 could have been to "up the price" so TUG members would bid higher.  

We have Starwood watching all the time as well.  I wouldn't be surprised if Starwood started buying up the bargain weeks, so we couldn't do it anymore, but they seem apathetic so far.  You just don't know what the future holds for our internal trading priority with II, or if our ability to get the prime weeks for our exchanges will end (and when).  It's all guesswork, but the developers sure dislike the knowledgeable people like us.  

I worry that we are cutting off our own noses..............


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## RLG (Nov 16, 2008)

TUG is a great source of information.  I've learned a lot from TUG about timeshares and Starwood's system in particular.

Unfortunately, however, TUG seems prone to silly conspiracy theories when it comes to Ebay.  (If you don't believe me, just do a search on "Ebay" and read some of the threads.)  I've been an Ebay user for more than 12 years and it seems pretty clear to me that nothing nefarious is going on with this auction.

The only thing that is unusual here is that the high bid got so high so early.  Nowadays the most experienced and serious bidders enter their bids in the last few minutes, i.e "snipe".  For example, the bidding history on the EOY auction I link below shows that the price would have tripled in the last 60 seconds.

As djyamyam points out, the high bid is well within the market range for a 2br ski week at this resort.  This couldn't easily be discovered by searching completed auctions on Ebay since there haven't been any recent ones.  However, much of this info is readily available here on TUG for those who don't regularly follow this resort like djyamyam and I do.  (BTW, no recent listings may indicate some scarcity value.)  There have also been several EOY listings including this one which indicates the 10k valuation is reasonable:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250308864328

A look at the bid history for the EY listing makes it pretty clear what happened.  This can be seen here:
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=280285443307

Normally the high bid would only jump enough to outbid the second highest bid of 6500.  However, the seller apparently had a 9999 reserve and the high bidder exceeded it.  Ebay automatically increases the bid to the reserve level.  I don't like this as a bidder, but that's how it works.  It's one of the many reasons I normally don't bother to bid on reserve auctions.

Not only is the 9999 not a silly high bid, I would not be surprised to see the week sell for more than that.  Last year I was outbid on a 2br ski week at SMV by another Tugger who paid in excess of 13k.

On another note, I don't agree with the characterization of this resort has having "high" maintenance.  A 2br locks off into two units that rent and trade as true 1 bedrooms.  $525 per year for a 1br may not be cheap, but it's hardly "high" for a name brand timeshare.


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## djp (Nov 16, 2008)

Yeah if you love to ski beaver creek and vail, and dont feel compelled to be ski in ski out, then SMV is a great place to ski from. The ski in ski out beaver creek resorts sell for high dollar (over 20-30k) even resale, so $10k for a 2br lockout that can be slit up into two 1br's that can each trade for a 2br in Maui in off season would be nice to have. The maintfees which did go up last year are not bad if you realize that they are about half of the SVN beach resorts. some people really really like to ski in Colorado.....and will pay $10k to own a nice name brand resort there. The prices at SMV for ski weeks maxxed out at $45k from the developer......so $10k does not seem that high for a resale ski week.


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## KevinRS (Nov 16, 2008)

*You CAN get week 52- but not likely*

They do sell week 52 as fixed, but those owners can trade their week for a different winter week, and then their week 52 would be available as a trade.  why anyone would ever trade New Years week is beyond me, but the Res agent says it happens on RARE occasions,

I LOVE this resort, it always surprises me that others don't.... to each his own.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 16, 2008)

Who doesn't like the resort?  I love the resort and the area.  I also love Lakeside Terrace.  

I think my point was missed a bit here.  As I watch eBay listings, I see a pattern of bidding, which is not being followed here on this listing.  Usually, a bid starts out very low and climbs pretty high in the last hours.  Also, I see a trend toward dropping prices, which isn't holding true for this particular week.  For example, a Sheraton Broadway Plantation platinum 2 bedroom lockout sold a few months ago for about $2,300 on eBay.  Then a few days ago, the exact same thing, a platinum lockout at SBP sold for $1,500.  The prices are going down on all of these units. 

Perhaps that reservation for the February week is really something the bidders want.  Seems a bit odd to me to see the high price in these economic times, and the bidding pattern going up so sharply early on.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 16, 2008)

I should also add that with this kind of cash outlay, a person could get a mandatory resort like Sheraton Vistana Villages.


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## SDKath (Nov 16, 2008)

I don't really understand the problem with the price.  It has a reserve.  So unless the reserve is met, it is not gonna sell.  It doesn't matter how fast the price goes up at the beginning.  I think the seller said the reserve was $10,000?  Katherine


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## djp (Nov 16, 2008)

I think that there are different kinds of ebay buyers...
-some like me....have a lowball price they are willing to pay and wait until the end to bid and see what happens
-others..like the bidder on this item....have a max bid they are willing to pay, so they enter that relatively high bid early one....obviously hoping to not have to pay that high amount, unless the bidding goes higher. This way avoids the last minute pressurized bidding. 
In this particular auction, the only reason it shot up to the 10,000 mark was the reserve was set at that amount, otherwise the bid would have been $6500, and would have gone up incrementally over the next few days as others


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## Robert D (Nov 16, 2008)

*I'll Take Falcon Point Instead*

If a 2BR ski week at SMV goes for $10K, I think that Falcon Point which is a smaller but very nice independent resort down the street from SMV is a much better buy. You can get a 2BR EY ski week at Falcon Point for a fraction of this.  Also the M&T's at FP are a lot less than SMV.

Regarding Ebay bidders who place their bids way early, my guess is that they are relatively inexperienced Ebay buyers.  I've always thought that it was a big waste of money to bid with more than 10 seconds left in the auction.  It's hard to get a great buy on Ebay bidding early and one of the main reasons we buy stuff on Ebay is to get a great buy.


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## myip (Nov 16, 2008)

Robert D said:


> Regarding Ebay bidders who place their bids way early, my guess is that they are relatively inexperienced Ebay buyers.  I've always thought that it was a big waste of money to bid with more than 10 seconds left in the auction.  It's hard to get a great buy on Ebay bidding early and one of the main reasons we buy stuff on Ebay is to get a great buy.



Sometime, I placed an bid early because  I know that I won't be able to bid at the closing of the auction.  I don't like using sniper...  I don't want to learn new thing..  BTW:  I did pay over $10K  (resale) for SMV 2 years ago..


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## sernow (Nov 16, 2008)

Myip,

Reliable sniping programs are easy to use, will save you time, and will occassionally win you unbelievable deals that you would have been outbid for, if you placed your bid to early. Like Robert said, you risk paying too much for an item (or not winning it at all) if you place your bid with more than 10 seconds to go. I prefer cutting it even closer than that.


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## thinze3 (Nov 17, 2008)

I usually try to snipe, but when I recently won a BeachPlace Towers auction, I simply put in my maximum bid and walked away. I Knew I wouldn't be around when the bidding ended and didn't want to use my sniping software because it was on a family computer that simetimes gets jacked with by others.


Terry

_ADDED:_


Robert D said:


> If a 2BR ski week at SMV goes for $10K, I think that Falcon Point which is a smaller but very nice independent resort down the street from SMV is a much better buy. You can get a 2BR EY ski week at Falcon Point for a fraction of this.  Also the M&T's at FP are a lot less than SMV....



The intent is to get a reasonbly priced week that we would use once in a while and that would allow me access to the Starwood system.  

.


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## Pit (Nov 17, 2008)

sernow said:


> ... you risk paying too much for an item (or not winning it at all) if you place your bid with more than 10 seconds to go



There is no additional risk in bidding early. The only way you pay too much is if you bid too much, regardless of your timing.


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## thinze3 (Nov 18, 2008)

I have the opportunity to purchase a 2BR lock-off EOY Sheraton Mountain Villas ski week for $4,250. 

_Honest oppinions only please:_
Is this a good price?

What will it be worth 6 years from now?

I am very limited with school & college aged kids.
Will I be able to book week 11 or week 52 easily enough?


Terry


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## Twinkstarr (Nov 18, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> I have the opportunity to purchase a 2BR lock-off EOY Sheraton Mountain Villas ski week for $4,250.
> 
> _Honest oppinions only please:_
> Is this a good price?
> ...





I own at Lakeside Terrace and calling at 12 months was able to get the week I wanted. And I wasn't right on the exact day either. I don't have week 52 in my season though. 

My crystal ball is kind of on the fritz right now, so can't help you with the 6th yr value.


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## sml2181 (Nov 18, 2008)

Week 11 shouldn't be a problem - week 52...I bought a week 52 because I wanted to make sure that I would have that week. Like you, I can only go during specific weeks, being 51/52 and 7. 

As for the price ...I think it is great. 
I bought a floating week ey for 9K and another for 12K.
Paid more for weeks 51/52.

I also own a Lakeside week - which I bought for 4K (including title search and closing costs and it turned out to be an event week 7) and it's annual.
But it doesn't lock off. Mf's for 2009 750$ - or close to that. 

I don't know what it will be worth in 6 years, but for that price I wouldn't worry about it too much...


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## djp (Nov 18, 2008)

That seems to be a good deal.....not an amazing one. Market for an eoy is usually about %40 of the ey value. Before this thread began (and still now)....I would have estimated market value of an eoy ski week at 3,500-5,000, and an ey of 9,000-11,000. I think if you all at 8am 1 year out you should be able to get whatever you want. I have the belief that even people who paid a premium for a fixed week will want to go to hawaii etc at least 25% of the time. So there will always be some availability at 1 year out. I believe that if the economy does not totally tank for the long haul, and if Starwood is still in the timeshare biz, then in six years the value should be about what it is now, if not more. Starwood will not let a resort get old and dumpy, and while avon is not ski in ski out, there are not too many places in the US where you can stay within 10 minutes of 2 of the top 5 ski areas in the country (Vail and beaver creek)


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## ondeadlin (Nov 18, 2008)

Whenever they sell a week fixed, you HAVE to go into the deal assuming you won't get it with a float week. I'd be VERY skeptical of the idea you're going to get week 52 with regularity if I were you (and week 7 if that's fixed).

I don't think that value will hold. The property will age, fees will increase and newer TS resorts will be built in the area.

But it's not a huge investment. Even if it falls by half, if you like the place and get good use from it, maybe it works for you.


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## thinze3 (Nov 18, 2008)

I just called and spoke at leangth with a direct sales agent at Starwood.

SMV sold half of its weeks 51 & 52 as event weeks. The other half is available to all floating ski week owners. This is just like the new Westin Riverfront is doing as well.


Riverfront pricing is very inexpensive, but you must also purchase a silver week which will ultimately become worthless. YUKKK!

$44,900 + 19,900 = $64,800
148,800 SO + 46,500 SO 

They may substitute a summer week for only $6,000 more which would be a much better deal if someone had the cash. NOT ME.

$44,900 + 25,900 = $70,800
148,800 SO + 95,700 SO

They will do 2 EOY at the same price but they can't be the same year.


Terry


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2012)

*what's an xmas week 51 or 52 go for in 2012?*

I found a resale for both SMV and LT. SMV at $35,000, LT at $25,000. Looking for guidance as to whether that's where the market is. I know Xmas is always worth more, but I don't see these weeks come up much and not sure if they're in the ball park, or if the sellers have been spending too much time at the higher elevations!


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## scootr5 (Jul 13, 2012)

Someone just reported a few days ago that they were offered a New Years week at Westin Riverfront for 56.5K at a Starwood presentation. As you said you don't really see those weeks come up often, so if that's when you always want to go and you can cover the purchase cost then I'd grab it!


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## Robert D (Jul 17, 2012)

scooterjuanita said:


> I found a resale for both SMV and LT. SMV at $35,000, LT at $25,000. Looking for guidance as to whether that's where the market is. I know Xmas is always worth more, but I don't see these weeks come up much and not sure if they're in the ball park, or if the sellers have been spending too much time at the higher elevations!



Those prices sound high to me but you don't see these weeks come up for sale that often. I thought that week 52 would be worth more since a lot of people want to be home for Christmas and then go skiing the week between Christmas and New Year's.


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