# Trouble using Platinum Benefits [merged]



## travelwyndham (Mar 27, 2015)

We checked into the Wyndham Beaver Creek in February and had reservations through July. 

The resort said that they would keep us in the same unit for the entire stay but decided they wanted to use our unit for the show room and decided to make us move. The move was difficult because we were prepared for a long stay and they were very upset because it took too long. They said that for the rest of our stay they were going to make us move every week. 

They said that the reason they moved us in the first place was because I took advantage of the option to cancel and rebook within 60 days of travel and they said that I was a cheater for getting the rooms at a discount, even though this is the way the platinum ownership was sold to me (because of that benefit). They looked into my account and even "googled me" and found out that I rent some of my points to help cover maintenance and said that I wasn't allowed to have overlapping reservations. 

I explained that the reservations weren't overlapping because they had my name, husbands name, sons name and my fathers name (the original owner, who still uses his Wyndham to travel). This obviously upset them because my fathers name was removed from the account a few days later. 

I cannot grasp how this is even legal and I need the harassment to stop. I was told that I was allowed to rent out my points and to do a cancel and rebook on a reservation within 60 days of travel and even get a free upgrade as a platinum benefit. How dare they call me a cheat and manipulator and then change my account without my permission. 

PS- A lawyer from Wyndham contacted me and wanted the names of all the reps and mangers who told me that it was O.K. and pitched the idea of the Book, Cancel, and Rebook process- Of course I don't remember those names! Any Ideas? We have always been HUGE supporters of Wyndham and now we are being kicked to the curb for knowing how to use it.


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## Johnsp (Mar 28, 2015)

If the attorney for Wyndham wants to know the name of the salesperson who informed you of the book, cancel and rebook process, he only has to look at your record with the sales department where they keep detailed records of each presentation you have attended.  Records include salespersons name, the offer you accepted or turned down, credit rating etc.

We have been told of book, cancel and rebook at almost every presentation we have attended so this should be no surprise to anyone at Wyndham.  Every presentation we have attended in Hawaii has included this info and no owner should be called a cheat for doing something the sales department teaches you to do.

With regard to why you are being moved each week, it could be that when you rebooked you lost your priority for the best rooms.  The rooms are assigned in the order reservations are recieved with the best rooms going to those who booked the earliest.  Booking at 60 days put you low man on the totum pole in their computer.  I guess it is the price you pay for receiving your reservation at a reduced number of points.  I don't believe this is necessarily punitive as it is the way the system is set up.

Write to the Board of Directors through the Worldmark web site.  Someone may look into it and give you a response.


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## ChrisandBeth (Mar 28, 2015)

This is in the wrong forum. The OP is speaking of Wyndham, not Worldmark. There is no point savings at 60 days out in Worldmark.  

[moved]


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## ronparise (Mar 28, 2015)

travelwyndham said:


> We checked into the Wyndham Beaver Creek in February and had reservations through July. The resort said that they would keep us in the same unit for the entire stay but decided they wanted to use our unit for the show room and decided to make us move.The move was difficult because we were prepared for a long stay and they were very upset because it took too long. . They said that for the rest of our stay they were going to make us move every weekThey said that the reason they moved us in the first place was because I took advantage of the option to cancel and rebook within 60 days of travel and they said that I was a cheater for getting the rooms at a discount, even though this is the way the platinum ownership was sold to me (because of that benefit). They looked into my account and even "googled me" and found out that I rent some of my points to help cover maintenance and said that I wasn't allowed to have overlapping reservations. I explained that the reservations weren't overlapping because they had my name, husbands name, sons name and my fathers name (the original owner, who still uses his Wyndham to travel). This obviously upset them because my fathers name was removed from the account a few days later. I cannot grasp how this is even legal and I need the harassment to stop. I was told that I was allowed to rent out my points and to do a cancel and rebook on a reservation within 60 days of travel and even get a free upgrade as a platinum benefit. How dare they call me a cheat and manipulator and then change my account without my permission. PS- A lawyer from Wyndham contacted me and wanted the names of all the reps and mangers who told me that it was O.K. and pitched the idea of the Book, Cancel, and Rebook process- Of course I don't remember those names! Any Ideas? We have always been HUGE supporters of Wyndham and now we are being kicked to the curb for knowing how to use it.




I see three issues here, 
1) using the Cancel and re book trick to get a the Platinum Discount and
2) putting multiple names on the account to avoid  guest fees
3) expecting the resort to keep you in the same room for a long stay made up of several reservations

So regarding the Cancel and rebook.  It is a trick that a lot of us use, and its used by the sales force to make more sales, but it is not something we are entitled to. 

And regarding the use of multiple names to avoid a guest fee. this is also a trick that we use to avoid a fee.  But why is it an issue here. I understood that you have a string of continuous reservations, not overlapping ones. 

Regarding your expectation to stay in the same room... Thats just your expectation. and its an accommodation made at the resort level.  Wyndham doesnt provide for long reservations. it is a system built on an  old "weeks"  foundation.  The longest reservation that can be made is a week.   If you have strung together several reservations expect to move each week, and consider yourself lucky if you dont have too.  (and buy the desk clerk a nice gift for the favor they did you)


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## mclyne (Mar 28, 2015)

Bravo!!!!  Bravo!!!


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## Sandi Bo (Mar 28, 2015)

Bravo to what?

My sympathies are with the OP. They are using Wyndham the way it was marketed to them. My expectations and frustrations would be the same.

I had no idea the resort staff, when determining what room someone is assigned, was privy to how many points were used to book the room, or that it would play into what room the guest may be assigned.  Is the sales staff running the front desk at Beaver Creek?

As a VIP owner, you are able to request a specific room (if available at the time of booking).  It is not guaranteed. You can request a room and ask for a do not move.   If you cancel and rebook, you can do it via a VC and they can rebook you into the same room (and put your do not move on at that time). And if you aren't booked that way, you can request not be moved and the resort will typically accommodate your request.

My experiences with Wyndham resorts have always been great.  Either by keeping us in rooms we had requested (with DNM's) and/or keeping family family close together when we've booked several rooms.  I've never stayed anywhere for more than a week (someday I hope to ), but I've had renters that have and I've had split reservations.  My expectations have always been met or exceeded.  And, yes, I understand that I may have to move. But resorts don't want to clean any more than you want to move, it's a win-win.

I can't imagine having a name removed from your account, that is just crazy.  Who did that?  Beaver Creek or someone at Wyndham? I would be talking with someone in account management about that, it makes no sense. 

My father and brother have the same name, thus it's listed twice in our account.  When they've both stayed in the same resort at the same time, I call to be sure they notate the reservations so nothing gets cancelled.  And it's never been a problem. 

And, yup, pretty sure the cancel/rebook thing will come up in any presentation you attend.  So if you want someone's name, just attend another presentation. 

Good luck, OP, I hope you are able to enjoy your stay.


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## tschwa2 (Mar 28, 2015)

I have a feeling the lawyer you spoke to wasn't from Wyndham but was one trying to drum up business on a possible class action against Wyndham.

Without knowing what happened from the little bit you posted by guess would be the resort felt like you were trying to throw around your platinum status and your entitlement to stay in the same room and someone got mad and said they will make you move every week.  In general I don't think the resort cares how many points you used to book.


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## rschreff (Mar 28, 2015)

*Schreff*

The abuse of Wyndham Platinum has been taking place since I reached that level.  It is not only in situations like yours but also in the benefits promised which have been inundated by even higher levels designed by Wyndham to sell more units.  Please let me know the name of the Wyndham attorney because I am in process of looking into legal action.  Platinum owners have spent a great deal of money for benefits promised not only by Wyndham's sale team but also in black and white on the contracts.  

Thanks


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## 55plus (Mar 28, 2015)

Is this just a Beaver Creek thing or has this happened elsewhere? I don't cancel and rebook, but a lot of times I book within 60 days at half points, take a free upgrade and ask and been allowed to stay in the same unit for multiple weeks at a time. In fact maids come mid week to freshen up the room, etc., on more than 7 night stays and at some resorts during 7 night stays.


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 28, 2015)

Remember ... the Front Desk staff is now also the HANG TAG gang. I am sure some form of commission is being made to the front end personnel .... esp if the former HANG STAFF members are NOW working 11PM to 7AM front desk duty or rotating duties 7 days a week ... revenge would be in their card deck. ie moving every week, bad views ... I know of one or two resorts I should not check into...


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## am1 (Mar 28, 2015)

I can see having to move once in awhile to give the room a good clean and so you do not establish residency.

But everything week is annoying.  It creates more work for everyone and devalues the program.


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## 55plus (Mar 28, 2015)

am1 said:


> I can see having to move once in awhile to give the room a good clean and so you do not establish residency.
> 
> But everything week is annoying.  It creates more work for everyone and devalues the program.



It increases house keeping costs which are passed on as operating costs, i.e. increase in maintenance fees.


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## Ron2 (Mar 29, 2015)

tschwa2 said:


> I have a feeling the lawyer you spoke to wasn't from Wyndham but was one trying to drum up business on a possible class action against Wyndham.
> 
> Without knowing what happened from the little bit you posted by guess would be the resort felt like you were trying to throw around your platinum status and your entitlement to stay in the same room and someone got mad and said they will make you move every week.  In general I don't think the resort cares how many points you used to book.



There is at least one attorney (probably more) lurking here on TUG looking for disgruntled Wyndham owners who claim to have been misled by Wyndham concerning cancel-rebook. This attorney has sent PMs to me and no doubt to many others trying to get information and clients for his class action suit against Wyndham. If the OP isn't the lawyer then no doubt the lawyer he speaks of is the one working on the law suit. As to the OP’s claim, there is no way that a resort reservation desk clerk would know whether a person got their reservation through the cancel-rebook process or if it was just booked during the discount period. The OP’s claims sound rather outrageous to me but if any of it is true it should be reported to Wyndham Owner Care.


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## am1 (Mar 29, 2015)

Ron2 said:


> There is at least one attorney (probably more) lurking here on TUG looking for disgruntled Wyndham owners who claim to have been misled by Wyndham concerning cancel-rebook. This attorney has sent PMs to me and no doubt to many others trying to get information and clients for his class action suit against Wyndham. If the OP isn't the lawyer then no doubt the lawyer he speaks of is the one working on the law suit. As to the OP’s claim, there is no way that a resort reservation desk clerk would know whether a person got their reservation through the cancel-rebook process or if it was just booked during the discount period. The OP’s claims sound rather outrageous to me but if any of it is true it should be reported to Wyndham Owner Care.



A bunch of reservations at the discounted points in prime season is a good hint.


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## Pathways (Mar 29, 2015)

There is a lot of availability at Wyndham Beaver Creek. The OP could not have gotten the cancel/re-book more than 60 days out, which is only the first part of their stay. Even now, they can only cancel/re-book through May.

Also the resort does not see the reservations until 2 or 3 weeks prior to check-in so they would have no way to know they were staying that long unless someone 'told' them.


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## Sandy VDH (Mar 29, 2015)

Pathways said:


> There is a lot of availability at Wyndham Beaver Creek. The OP could not have gotten the cancel/re-book more than 60 days out, which is only the first part of their stay. Even now, they can only cancel/re-book through May.
> 
> Also the resort does not see the reservations until 2 or 3 weeks prior to check-in so they would have no way to know they were staying that long unless someone 'told' them.



If there is lots of availability it is completely within the OPs rights to cancel and rebook.  How would the resort even know that information, unless someone is digging into your history. 

Try being nice to the front desk staff, not confrontational, perhaps they will work with you.  Demanding to not be moved, but rather asking is they could accommodate you as much as possible goes a long way. Just saying.....


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 29, 2015)

If the check in staff member was a former Hangtag person ... they can read more into the history than a regular front desk checkin clerk --- who would want to go from a 10-5 job to 8 hours either 7-3 or 3-11 or 11-7 shift? And not commissions on sales or kickback from vendors who they stuff guests onto their tours (yes, the hangtag staff got commissions from the tour vendors).

I would just avoid the "unhappy" staff member and befriend another. If that fails, very politely talk with the Front Desk supervisor ... smiles and praises go much further than whining and ranting.


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## Sandi Bo (Mar 30, 2015)

It does sound like the OP made the wrong person mad. 

I also think Adam made a good point here:


am1 said:


> I can see having to move once in awhile to give the room a good clean and so you do not establish residency.



Overall, I am green with envy, OP is living my dream as far as using the Wyndham's (not the room changes though). Some day.


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## staceyeileen (Mar 30, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> Remember ... the Front Desk staff is now also the HANG TAG gang.



What do you mean by hang tag?


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## uscav8r (Mar 30, 2015)

staceyeileen said:


> What do you mean by hang tag?



AKA a Parking Pass...


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## Angela5svr (Mar 31, 2015)

*don't let them bulay you!!!!*

Denise they are not allowed to do this.  I know bluegreen uses this as common practice as they use these excuses to strip benefits from owners ad they can change at any time per contracts. I manage platinum accounts so am very familiar with this and a prior employee so know the internal policies.  Please email me so I can help you deal with this outrageous behavior,  free of charge charge as we are an owner advocacy group.  This company amazes me how they steal from owners every single day but have the audacity to say this to you.  Let's get you some customer service points to recoup your stay!  Then they will learn to keep their mouths shut and treat their owners with the respect they deserve! !!!!! I would also love the name of the legal services rep who contacted you!  I know they think their owners aren't bright enough to figure this out but I have many sales memos that tell the sales rep to pitch this and rental.  Bet they hate they put so much on paper! I'd love to expose their entire system on here but will refrain to give my clients the upper hand and complete confidentiality.  I'd love to speak  to you and amazed how they can't handle any competition Angela5svr@gmail.com


travelwyndham said:


> We checked into the Wyndham Beaver Creek in February and had reservations through July.
> 
> The resort said that they would keep us in the same unit for the entire stay but decided they wanted to use our unit for the show room and decided to make us move. The move was difficult because we were prepared for a long stay and they were very upset because it took too long. They said that for the rest of our stay they were going to make us move every week.
> 
> ...


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## sandkastle4966 (Mar 31, 2015)

A couple of things to know about BC/Vail:

1) brand new, barely have the doors open
2) understaffed for a full house - I would even say severely understaffed
3) units are still being worked on- items still need to be fixed/added, etc  resort was full when we were there and they came into our room twice to fix issues.  I can see them moving your units just to get into them to do some  fixes and finishing.
4)  there are no hang tag people.  parking is all valet.  we were not approached at all, by anyone, for a sales presentation.  there was a sign in the lobby to sign up.
5)  we did stay in the same room with 3 ressies that totaled 8 days. Called the week before to point it out to them, and we stayed in the same room. 
6) staff were doing any and all jobs - from helping with linen changes, fetching spa towels and valeting cars and luggage.  they were ALL extremely nice and helpful despite the current situation.  
7) we spoke to the General Manager regarding some issues we were NOT happy about.  I believe we were "reasonably calm"  - she was extremely professional, and found reasonable solutions/accommodations for our issues.

We do 4 weeks at a time in timeshares.  The longest we have stayed in one room is two weeks.   Personally, I am not sure that "months" in the same room is reasonable - I can see 2-3 weeks, month maximum.  Staff need to "deep clean" rooms and resolve issues from time to time.

My 2 cents on the situation.


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## richjester (Mar 31, 2015)

We have stayed up to three weeks in the same room.  Never tried to stay longer.  We have had extended stays at several resorts and have found front desk people very accommodating and professional.  At Edisto Island, they had us in different condos for our two-week stay, and changed it upon our arrival so we wouldn't have to move.  We always try to treat the front desk people as kindly as we possibly can and have found their reaction to be very helpful.


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## travelwyndham (May 12, 2015)

*Wyndham Doesn't Like That I Know The System*

Yes, I posted about Beaver Creek. To clarify, the front desk staff was awesome! They have some glitches to work out. First please let me explain my story. My husband was given a short amount of time to get his affairs in order due to a malignant brain tumor back in 2004 (he's still here!). We have 5 children- twin 4 year olds, a 7 year old, 16 year old and 18 year old. We have been "living like he was dying" for so long that we ran into some financial troubles and decided to take the advice of Wyndham and travel more (leaving our house to be rented and the utility bills behind) killing 2 birds with 1 stone (hate that term) because many times we had to travel for treatment anyway and then we could show the kids the world and have lots of family time and finally try our hands at renting our timeshare, too. Well it worked.... We have seen so much, and I have had success with the rentals.

I am really good at booking and then canceling and rebooking for the discount and upgrade. With the left over points I rent out to others and it takes care of my maintenance. We had no issues until the manager at Wyndham Beaver Creek starting asking me questions about what I did and I was very honest. He even asked me about renting a few nights from me for his family. Well it was farce- because he was just trying to get info. He never needed the rental. He had a lawyer from Wyndham call me and tell me that I was a cheater and manipulator of the Wyndham system and said that from then on they would make us move very week. Out at 10 am and then back into the same unit at 4 pm. Just to make us miserable. They said that it wasn't in the spirit of Wyndham to book, cancel and rebook and that I was taking advantage. Since then our lives with Wyndham have been a nightmare. They have hired a few people to constantly check our account and cancel our reservations (sometimes even my own vacations- not the ones I intended to rent) leaving us without a place to stay and then lying about it in the notes saying that it was in my daughter's name (who isn't old enough to check in- therefore its ok to cancel and forfeit the points). 

Luckily, I have been taking pictures of my reservations and they can no longer lie- I have proof, but I don't know how they are going to fix what's missing. Also, besides stays missing from my account, I'm pretty sure that there are points missing. That I haven't been able to prove yet- But I'm working on it. A lawyer with Wyndham called me and actually offered to buy us out of our points if we were ready to give up. Honestly, I don't know what to do. There are some pretty big megarenters out there. I'm not one of them. I only have about 6 million points and we are staying 365 days out of the year on our points. How would it be possible to match the rental business of those who have 30 million points? They are coming after me because I really know how to work the system and I've been told this by people high up in the business who advise that I higher a lawyer. 

I've stayed pretty quiet, but I have had it and it's time to speak my side and let others know what this company is capable of. You are probably wondering- why not just let them buy us out? Well I'm sure it wouldn't match the hundreds of thousands of dollars that we have put into it (we own almost 2 million directly through Wyndham, 2.2 million in associate resorts that we converted and then about 2 million in resales), but we really do love traveling with the kids and we don't want to ruin our credit. It was working fine until Beaver Creek. We are supposed to be going to Australia and New Zealand September- January (I have many double reservations because some of the units are too small to sleep our family of 7 and I'm worried that Wyndham is going to cancel on us). 

On another note- I hear from people all the time who say that they have heard our story in a sales presentation (they use my story to sell!) and that they were inspired and bought more or have been trying to do what we do. I've always been fine with that and a huge promoter of Wyndham because its given me the opportunity to travel the world with my family. But now I want to go into the sales center and tell everyone that its all lies. Yes, they can do most of the things told to them- but watch out, if they get too good, Wyndham will be a big STOP to it quickly and there's nothing you can do. By the way- they did remove names from our account to keep us from overlapping reservations. Just to make sure they have their watchdogs scanning our account daily. Most of you get those calls from a computer robot warning that your reservation will be canceled if its overlapping- I get "special" attention"... An actual person calls me- usually after they have already done it. 

If anyone has anything to offer or can help or has experienced any of these issues. Please please please reach out to me. I just want to resolve it. I just want the harassment to stop. I just want to vacation and experience world travel with my husband and children as long as my husband is able to travel. We have been so blessed so far and we are good people. The kids deserve to enjoy this time with their father. Wyndham's harassment isn't just affecting me- its affecting them, too.... As I sit and write this (desperate) I am in Hawaii- on a computer, fighting with Wyndham. Not at the beach or hiking the trails. All because I rent, get discounts and upgrades. Thank you


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## travelwyndham (May 12, 2015)

richjester said:


> We have stayed up to three weeks in the same room.  Never tried to stay longer.  We have had extended stays at several resorts and have found front desk people very accommodating and professional.  At Edisto Island, they had us in different condos for our two-week stay, and changed it upon our arrival so we wouldn't have to move.  We always try to treat the front desk people as kindly as we possibly can and have found their reaction to be very helpful.



Yes, I agree... Normally we are allowed to stay in the same room for long periods of time. Most front desk staff are wonderful and helpful and even become like family after awhile. This is something completely different. Please read my explanation. As I am writing this I am in Hawaii in a room that I will be in for 3 weeks straight. The staff is wonderful. Thank you for your reply.


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## travelwyndham (May 12, 2015)

travelwyndham said:


> We checked into the Wyndham Beaver Creek in February and had reservations through July.
> 
> The resort said that they would keep us in the same unit for the entire stay but decided they wanted to use our unit for the show room and decided to make us move. The move was difficult because we were prepared for a long stay and they were very upset because it took too long. They said that for the rest of our stay they were going to make us move every week.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for all of your replies (agree or disagree). I have posted the bigger picture because I feel that its time more people heard the story. Something happened yesterday that has left me so upset. So it continues... I really thought that when we checked out of Beaver Creek early (we know when we're not wanted and it was obvious) and headed to Hawaii (where we feel like we are among family at the Beach Walk after staying a full year in 2012) that things would get better, but yesterday somebody from Wyndham Corporate at Missouri (The front desk looked into it) canceled our 1 week stay in a 4 bedroom presidential (with no notes or reason). We didn't have any overlapping reservations- 1 reservation in my name in another unit and then the 4 bd (as a luxury) in my husbands name. It was canceled and the points were forfeited. I called owner care and they tried to tell me that the reservation was cancelled because it was in my daughters name, but I had a picture of the reservation (I am taking notes and pics now) and there's no denying it... I sent the picture to owner care and now I don't know what's going to happen. The front desk is on my side. They described the action as Theft on wyndham's part. I will be updating my posts (hopefully with good news) from here on out. Thank you again to everyone who has commented and given their " 2 cents"


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## Don40 (May 12, 2015)

Great idea of making copies of all confirmations.  Also good idea to call the resorts and confirm they have your reservation before you get on the plane.  Since you have a copy of the reservation Wyndham will have to honor the reservation.  Hold their feet to the fire, probably Franz going to Hawaii and needed a room and took yours .  Just have him move, and pay to stay at the Trum Towers he makes too much money anyway.

Let us know the end results.


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## jebloomquist (May 12, 2015)

travelwyndham said:


> ... First please let me explain my story...



Travelwyndham, your story is down right scary. I too am a Platinum owner and feel that I use the "added features" of the Wyndham system well. Do I dare even to write this response here? Is big brother Wyndham monitoring TUG, eager to pounce on owners such as us? 

In the near future I will be using one reservation and have another in my wife's name at the same resort. I have done this for the use of one of my kids, who is also an owner, but is not too reliable. If I put the second reservation in his name, and he cancels within 15 days, I can't ask one of the other kids to take his place; therefore, I put the reservation in my wife's name. In this way, she can check-in regardless of which child shows. (All of the kids are co-owners on the account, so I am not trying to bypass a guest certificate.)

Do I have to worry that Wyndham will see that both my wife and I have a reservation, and then cancel one of them for whatever reason it chooses? Since I do a fair amount of the cancel and rebook within 60 days, must I now begin to worry?

I'll repeat it again, travelwyndham's story is scary.

Jim


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## am1 (May 12, 2015)

Don40 said:


> Since you have a copy of the reservation Wyndham will have to honor the reservation.



Not the case at all.


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## b2bailey (May 12, 2015)

I am a new (resale) owner of Wyndham. This entire thread is so weird. All this talk about multiple reservations and overlapping reservations not being 'legal' in the Wyndham system is very confusing.

Do I understand correctly that I can't book two simultaneous weeks at the same location? Like if I want to invite my sister and her family to join me and want to get them a room?

Please help me understand. Why would Wyndham care?


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## tschwa2 (May 12, 2015)

b2bailey said:


> I am a new (resale) owner of Wyndham. This entire thread is so weird. All this talk about multiple reservations and overlapping reservations not being 'legal' in the Wyndham system is very confusing.
> 
> Do I understand correctly that I can't book two simultaneous weeks at the same location? Like if I want to invite my sister and her family to join me and want to get them a room?
> 
> Please help me understand. Why would Wyndham care?



You can you just can't have two rooms under the same name.  If you don't have two owners checking in each under his/her name, you have to purchase a guest certificate.


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## b2bailey (May 12, 2015)

So, if I have a large family and there are only studios available -- I can't book two studios in my name to accommodate everyone. I would need a guest certificate for the other half of my family?


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## am1 (May 13, 2015)

Yes.  Wyndham has said this is what we wanted.


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## ronparise (May 13, 2015)

jebloomquist said:


> Travelwyndham, your story is down right scary. I too am a Platinum owner and feel that I use the "added features" of the Wyndham system well. Do I dare even to write this response here? Is big brother Wyndham monitoring TUG, eager to pounce on owners such as us?
> 
> In the near future I will be using one reservation and have another in my wife's name at the same resort. I have done this for the use of one of my kids, who is also an owner, but is not too reliable. If I put the second reservation in his name, and he cancels within 15 days, I can't ask one of the other kids to take his place; therefore, I put the reservation in my wife's name. In this way, she can check-in regardless of which child shows. (All of the kids are co-owners on the account, so I am not trying to bypass a guest certificate.)
> 
> ...



Jim 

you are exactly right...scary. But I gotta think there is more to it than what travelwyndham has posted. Otherwise why havent we been faced with the same issues. I would think Wyndham would want more "full timers" that paid full retail for 2 million points.


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## travelwyndham (May 13, 2015)

*Watch out for Wyndham! This is from my teenage daughter- Just saying*

_[Duplicate post; moved from Info sticky thread.]_


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## travelwyndham (May 13, 2015)

*A view of Wyndham through an angry teenager-who is listed as owner on Wyndham account*

Hi my name is Aspen and we own over 6 million points. We do extended stays with wyndham, rent our our house and travel the world and maybe you have heard of us because a lot of time share people share our story and sell by our name. Now someone is physically going into our account and cancelling our reservations. They just cancelled our 4 bedroom presidential in Hawaii and took all of our points with it. It's not even the computer, it's a real person in owner care. So we have had problems with you guys for a long time now and are issues are not being resolved. I don't know what you guys plan on doing about our 4 bedroom but we either need it or are points refunded. You guys are stealing from us and if this doesn't stop happening that's fine. I'm sure my parents would be happy to take their timeshare update every two weeks and complain very loudly so everyone else can hear what cheats you have been. I use to love Wyndham, it's like our second home and the staff has always been like family but what is happening is unacceptable and everyone refuses to help. Each day you don't resolve the issue, I am talking to people in the hot tubs why not to buy. I use to tell them all the wonderful reason to buy but I'm telling them everything you guys have done to us. At bonnet creek they destroyed about 400 dollars in luggage with letting ice cream and frozen strawberries sit on our stuff when moving our room, they never refunded us. In beaver creek they lost about 100 dollars of stuff moving us and they never refunded us and now it's people physically going into our account and removing our rooms. I might be only a teenager but I stay in Wyndhams all the times and every day I am asked by at least 4 families how I like it and how they are thinking about buying. I'm just telling them everything you have done to us. Please resolve this issue and I will have nothing to say and if you can't, I will tell my story all over.  Wyndhams are beautiful but for having over a 2500 dollar maintenance fee a month, they sure do treat us awful.


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## Bigrob (May 13, 2015)

travelwyndham said:


> Hi my name is Aspen and we own over 6 million points. We do extended stays with wyndham, rent our our house and travel the world and maybe you have heard of us because a lot of time share people share our story and sell by our name. Now someone is physically going into our account and cancelling our reservations. They just cancelled our 4 bedroom presidential in Hawaii and took all of our points with it. It's not even the computer, it's a real person in owner care. So we have had problems with you guys for a long time now and are issues are not being resolved. I don't know what you guys plan on doing about our 4 bedroom but we either need it or are points refunded. You guys are stealing from us and if this doesn't stop happening that's fine. I'm sure my parents would be happy to take their timeshare update every two weeks and complain very loudly so everyone else can hear what cheats you have been. I use to love Wyndham, it's like our second home and the staff has always been like family but what is happening is unacceptable and everyone refuses to help. Each day you don't resolve the issue, I am talking to people in the hot tubs why not to buy. I use to tell them all the wonderful reason to buy but I'm telling them everything you guys have done to us. At bonnet creek they destroyed about 400 dollars in luggage with letting ice cream and frozen strawberries sit on our stuff when moving our room, they never refunded us. In beaver creek they lost about 100 dollars of stuff moving us and they never refunded us and now it's people physically going into our account and removing our rooms. I might be only a teenager but I stay in Wyndhams all the times and every day I am asked by at least 4 families how I like it and how they are thinking about buying. I'm just telling them everything you have done to us. Please resolve this issue and I will have nothing to say and if you can't, I will tell my story all over.  Wyndhams are beautiful but for having over a 4,000 dollar maintenance fee a month, they sure do treat us awful.



I guess I have a couple of questions at this point. Your profile says you own at Bonnet Creek and CWA - I'm aware of those maintenance fees - and at Beaver Creek. Since Beaver Creek just started selling, to own there you would have had to make a very recent developer purchase?

With the huge point values to stay at Beaver Creek,  suspect the maintenance fee rates there are lower than at Bonnet Creek and CWA. All of which leads me to the conclusion that your maintenance fee rate should be closer to $5.50/K, rather than the $8/K you say you're spending. 

I am becoming more dubious of the veracity of these accounts. As OP has said, the story related has been retold at many presentations... perhaps this is where the story came from, rather than being the OP's own story? I am not sure of the intent of a brand new poster with less than 10 posts suddenly becoming utterly disgusted after utilizing the system so well for apparently so long. It would be interesting to see if a check of the poster's IP does indeed register Hawaii as that is where they indicate they currently are.

Jim, Ron - FWIW, I am going from the assumption that this is no doubt someone with an axe to grind trying to stir things up... but the treatment described doesn't ring true, especially if the OP is being used as an example of how the system can work during sales presentations! If ever anyone would be "protected" from this kind of "prosecution," it would be someone whose story had been made public in sales presentations and who had acquired 2M points directly from Wyndham at a cost of several hundred thousand dollars, no? Any bets on who this poster actually is?


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## Bigrob (May 13, 2015)

ronparise said:


> Jim
> 
> you are exactly right...scary. But I gotta think there is more to it than what travelwyndham has posted. Otherwise why havent we been faced with the same issues. I would think Wyndham would want more "full timers" that paid full retail for 2 million points.



Exactly right. This would be considered a dream customer, and as a customer whose story is being retold in sales presentations, exactly the customer that Wyndham executives would be very careful to keep happy at all costs. Something doesn't ring true here.


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## tschwa2 (May 13, 2015)

In the deleted advertising post was indication of the ebay seller info (mcgab12345).  Indeed that very same 4 br Hawaiian presidential was up for auction ending today.  My guess was that they keep multiple units in various family members names and then check the guest in without a guest cert while in residence but that is just a guess maybe not even a very good one.  Very positive ebay feedback but only 106 so another guess is the raiment renting is fairly recent as there was over 40 auctions ending in last 3 weeks and another 34 currently running  including a bunch of obviously RCI DVC exchanges.

Hope it works out for them.  Be careful what you post it can work against you as well.


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## Bigrob (May 13, 2015)

tschwa2 said:


> In the deleted advertising post was indication of the ebay seller info (mcgab12345).  Indeed that very same 4 br Hawaiian presidential was up for auction ending today.  My guess was that they keep multiple units in various family members names and then check the guest in without a guest cert while in residence but that is just a guess maybe not even a very good one.  Very positive ebay feedback but only 106 so another guess is the raiment renting is fairly recent as there was over 40 auctions ending in last 3 weeks and another 34 currently running  including a bunch of obviously RCI DVC exchanges.
> 
> Hope it works out for them.  Be careful what you post it can work against you as well.



I didn't see the deleted advertising post.


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## CO skier (May 13, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> Any bets on who this poster actually is?


I would put my money on "someone with some serious psychological issues" that they are foisting on the 5 kids (if they exist).


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## travelwyndham (May 14, 2015)

*Wow- interesting feedback*

I can assure you that I am the person who's story has been told- I am new to this site and so on my profile I put places I recently stayed- not necessarily owned (I realized that it needed to be fixed today). My maintenance is about $5.00 per 1000 points and we own more than 6 million points. I own Shearwater (converted), Bali Hai, Waikiki Beach Walk, and then we own some re sales. We only have 4 names on our account and 2 of them "don't count" they are my kids under 21 years of age. So any reservation I used to make with their names were always canceled and forfeited (I found out why after losing hundreds of thousands of points). My father used to be on my account (as the original owner), but Wyndham removed his name when my problems started in March.

Your right, I used to LOVE this company. We are traveling the world and are so blessed! Then We had some minor issues and got on someone's bad side and Wyndham retaliated by assigning agents to my account to "help" me... Since then the reservations under my older kids starting getting canceled (with no robot calls for warning), my fathers name was removed from account, and then now our 4 bedroom was canceled here at Beach Walk. I had a picture of the reservation and a Wyndham owner specialist admitted that it shouldn't have been canceled, but as of now... Nothing has been done about it. They took the room and the points and they are "looking into it". 

As for the other comment about having psychological issues because I have 5 kids- Shame on You. 
As for the rentals on EBay- that's right... I have very positive reviews and I'm very proud of my ability to send families on amazing affordable vacations. I don't have a ton of rentals- just enough to help me cover my maintanence fees and put a little toward the loans outstanding with Wyndham. There's nothing wrong with being educated enough to work the system the way I was taught when going platinum and extending my knowledge on to others for their benefit. 

I will continue to be outraged at Wyndham until they start treating us with the respect that we deserve as owners and guests. I started posting here to warn others that Wyndham has the ability to access their accounts, cancel any/all of their reservations for whatever reason they may see fit without warning, and alter owners accounts. I am also upset because I have stood by for a long time listening as sales reps talked about my "wonderful" story and sold product using this story, and then Wyndham went behind the scenes and did all they did to try and make us so miserable that we would stop using the product all together and even try to entice us to "sell it back to them"- I really did get an offer from someone at corporate to sell it back to them, without asking to.

All we want is for Wyndham to leave our account alone. If a reservation has an overlapping reservation then it's my bad- the computer will most likely cancel it on me. However, I don't think it's right to have agents "watching my account" and canceling what they decide to cancel.


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## Jason245 (May 14, 2015)

If you have that much money and these many issues and have documentation of them violating the contract for the services they provided,  why haven't you sued for breach of contract yet?


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## travelwyndham (May 14, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> Exactly right. This would be considered a dream customer, and as a customer whose story is being retold in sales presentations, exactly the customer that Wyndham executives would be very careful to keep happy at all costs. Something doesn't ring true here.



Yes, I was a dream customer when I was buying all the points. Now that I really know how to use it, I'm not liked so much. Sure, it's a great story for the sales reps to tell- our story sells packages! However, these clients have no idea what Wyndham is doing to us behind closed doors- that's why I'm here. I can guarantee you that when they stop playing dirty- I'll go back to standing in the shadows and listening quietly. However, I won't lie if someone asks me about what we've experienced- some absolutely amazing and some downright evil experiences with this company. I am happy to answer any questions that you may have. I have nothing to hide. I know the system well and we have had a reservation at a Wyndham resort (of our own- not for a rental) everyday since December of 2011 at various resorts and various cities. As a matter of fact- we are booked in Australia and New Zealand from Sept 2015 to Jan 2016. Funny enough- as I write this my husband is cautioning me because Wyndham (maybe you have ties even?) are going to go into our account now and cancel all our upcoming Australia plans... We really are watching over shoulders now! However, we have to stop "hiding" in the corner afraid that they will do something like this- because they already are. What do I have left to lose at this point? If you or anyone on this site is "Wyndham" please just tell them to leave us alone and the cat fight will stop. We don't want this- life is too short.


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## travelwyndham (May 14, 2015)

Jason245 said:


> If you have that much money and these many issues and have documentation of them violating the contract for the services they provided,  why haven't you sued for breach of contract yet?



All our money is with Wyndham now. It may seem super cool (kinda is), but truth is we have to stay in Wyndhams until the loan is paid off- can't afford to go home now. LOL
Besides- it's not that easy to find a lawyer to help you with a timeshare fraud... Ok, maybe I tried to make a few phone calls....


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## Jason245 (May 14, 2015)

Not easy?  It isn't hard to find a competent attorney especially if you have documented evidence of breach of contract. .


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## scootr5 (May 14, 2015)

travelwyndham said:


> As for the rentals on EBay- that's right... I have very positive reviews and I'm very proud of my ability to send families on amazing affordable vacations. I don't have a ton of rentals- just enough to help me cover my maintanence fees and put a little toward the loans outstanding with Wyndham. There's nothing wrong with being educated enough to work the system the way I was taught when going platinum and extending my knowledge on to others for their benefit.



There _is_ something wrong when you're renting RCI exchanges though - that's against their rules and can get your account locked and the exchanges cancelled, leaving those families with no place to stay.


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## Bigrob (May 14, 2015)

travelwyndham said:


> Yes, I was a dream customer when I was buying all the points. Now that I really know how to use it, I'm not liked so much. Sure, it's a great story for the sales reps to tell- our story sells packages! However, these clients have no idea what Wyndham is doing to us behind closed doors- that's why I'm here. I can guarantee you that when they stop playing dirty- I'll go back to standing in the shadows and listening quietly. However, I won't lie if someone asks me about what we've experienced- some absolutely amazing and some downright evil experiences with this company. I am happy to answer any questions that you may have. I have nothing to hide. I know the system well and we have had a reservation at a Wyndham resort (of our own- not for a rental) everyday since December of 2011 at various resorts and various cities. As a matter of fact- we are booked in Australia and New Zealand from Sept 2015 to Jan 2016. Funny enough- as I write this my husband is cautioning me because Wyndham (maybe you have ties even?) are going to go into our account now and cancel all our upcoming Australia plans... We really are watching over shoulders now! However, we have to stop "hiding" in the corner afraid that they will do something like this- because they already are. What do I have left to lose at this point? If you or anyone on this site is "Wyndham" please just tell them to leave us alone and the cat fight will stop. We don't want this- life is too short.



I'm still wondering about the $4000/month in maintenance fees for 6M points... with Shearwater converted, Bali Hai, and Waikiki Beach Walk, your maintenance fees should be even lower than the $5.50 I estimated. $5/K annually would be $30K annually or $2500/month, not $4000/month.

I don't work for Wyndham, but suspected you might... or that you might attract attention from Wyndham with this thread. 

Are you compensated in any way for the use of your story during presentations? Are there any images of you or your family used in the presentation? 

I think I asked in the other thread about how they "removed" your father from the account. Without meaning to sound crass, if he is still living and on any of the deeds as an owner, they cannot remove him. 

Regarding having someone under 21 on the reservation; I have had this situation occur, where a guest did not disclose they were under 21. They were unable to check in and had to have a parent drive 2.5 hours to check them in (and of course an additional guest confirmation was required). But the reservation was not canceled (in this case, of course, neither Wyndham nor I knew the name I had was not eligible to check in). 

This does bring up an interesting question though. My understanding is that only reservations that are inside of 15 days can be cancelled. Have you had reservations cancelled beyond this window? 

Do you have multiple accounts? If so, are reservations from the different accounts that coincide also getting cancelled?


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## ronparise (May 14, 2015)

travelwyndham said:


> Then We had some minor issues and got on someone's bad side



And there it is

as I guessed;  there is more to the story than posted.  I wonder what it is



So help us out. travelwyndham,  Here on TUG we dont just post problems, we try to help out others by posting the whole story.    Let us know what these "minor" issues were, and what you think you might have done, to get on someones bad side. I ask so you can help others here to avoid  the same mistake(s)

You need to understand that most folks here (Ill call them regular owners) dont care about your problems and may even be happy that Wyndham is making live miserable for a "mega renter"  like yourself. These are the guys that own this stuff for a nice vacation every once in a while and resent it when they have to share a hot tub with a non owner that rented their unit for less than mf

And even the other mega renters dont much care.  I know I take the attitude, "better him than me."   As long as Wyndham is distracted dealing with you , maybe they will leave me alone. 

You gotta know however, that those of us of any size, that have been doing this for a while dont believe anything that you have posted because what you say is  happening to you is completely foreign to our experience.  (at least I dont believe you, and wont until you come clean with the whole story.) 

And you dont want to piss us off either. We (the big guys here)  have established contacts within the company and outside of the company that we might be able to use to help you out, If you want help.... Frankly all I think you want is to bitch and I dont know why


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## Bigrob (May 14, 2015)

ronparise said:


> And there it is
> 
> as I guessed;  there is more to the story than posted.  I wonder what it is



My money is on tschwa2's theory... checking people in while staying on site to avoid guest confirmation fees. But even that would not, I don't think, get the kind of special attention being referred to here, so perhaps there is more to it?

Also, I agree with Ron on his other point; there are VERY few people who care about the interests of mega-renters. The vast majority of owners just want to be able to book a vacation using their points, and Wyndham is more focused - by a longshot - on keeping that much larger group of folks happy than a small subset who purposely own excess points for the purpose of running a rental business. While I am sympathetic to some of the issues you've raised (we'll have a better perspective once the full story is shared), you have to realize that you're still ahead of where you might be should Wyndham again make revisions to the VIP benefits or cancellation rules. I'll be very interested in the follow-up regarding the 4BR Presidential cancellation. 

You also mentioned you are still paying on the loan(s). That is obviously a concern, as rumored changes may make how you're paying for it become much more difficult.


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## paxsarah (May 14, 2015)

scootr5 said:


> There _is_ something wrong when you're renting RCI exchanges though - that's against their rules and can get your account locked and the exchanges cancelled, leaving those families with no place to stay.



Yep. This is where my sympathy started to wane. That's not working within the Wyndham system as many here do, that's 100% breaking the rules of the RCI system.


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## comicbookman (May 14, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> I'm still wondering about the $4000/month in maintenance fees for 6M points... with Shearwater converted, Bali Hai, and Waikiki Beach Walk, your maintenance fees should be even lower than the $5.50 I estimated. $5/K annually would be $30K annually or $2500/month, not $4000/month.



Since the OP is still paying on loans, I would guess that is why they are paying $4000 per month instead of $2500.  I would also not be surprised if the "minor issues" were payment related.  That could result in a canceled reservation.  I know that a couple of years ago when we experienced financial problems I was told that our reservations may be subject to cancellation if we did not straighten things out with Wyndham.  And yes, we were still paying on a loan.


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## tschwa2 (May 14, 2015)

I'd give her a break on RCI DVC rental issue.  She is new here and may not know that to rent Disney weeks obtained through RCI (or any RCI exchange) and then rent them out is against the rules.  So many people do it. There is at least 3 others on ebay renting them out as well and unlike II that seems to take an active interest in stopping it, RCI does not.  And she said she learned how to work the system "the way I was taught when going platinum" probably by wyndham sales folk who told her, they do it all the time.   

So just so she knows now, this is from RCI's terms and conditions:



> D.* Guest Certificates and Guest Passes may not
> be used for any commercial purpose, or monetary or
> other consideration, by Member or guest, including
> without limitation auction, barter, rental, raffle or
> ...


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## CO skier (May 14, 2015)

comicbookman said:


> Since the OP is still paying on loans, I would guess that is why they are paying $4000 per month instead of $2500.  I would also not be surprised if the "minor issues" were payment related.  That could result in a canceled reservation.  I know that a couple of years ago when we experienced financial problems I was told that our reservations may be subject to cancellation if we did not straighten things out with Wyndham.  And yes, we were still paying on a loan.



Regarding the OP's situation, purchasing a Wyndham Platinum VIP account to travel more does not sound like a sound fiscal solution to “financial troubles” at that time.

Money is too short to maintain their current residence, or rent or buy something else, but airline tickets to Australia, New Zealand and short notice from Colorado to Hawaii for 7 people does not seem to be a problem.

These are just some of the inconsistencies throughout this story that lead me to question the whole tale.


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## comicbookman (May 14, 2015)

CO skier said:


> Regarding the OP's situation, purchasing a Wyndham Platinum VIP account to travel more does not sound like a sound fiscal solution to “financial troubles” at that time.
> 
> Money is too short to maintain their current residence, or rent or buy something else, but airline tickets to Australia, New Zealand and short notice from Colorado to Hawaii for 7 people does not seem to be a problem.
> 
> These are just some of the inconsistencies throughout this story that lead me to question the whole tale.



I completely agree.  The more I try to make sense of this, the less  it makes.


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## travelwyndham (May 14, 2015)

*Wyndham- The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly*

I posted a few days ago about our story and how my family has been "wronged" by Wyndham. Since then I have gotten some advice, support and unfortunately, some "threats" that I better be careful or it might get worse for me. This is exactly what I'm talking about- The fact that I'm always looking over my shoulder now with this company.

I want to start on a more positive note and reiterate that my husband has terminal cancer and with Wyndham we have been able to travel all over the United States going to DisneyWorld, Disneyland, Colorado, Hawaii, Washington DC, New York City, The water park at The Great Smokies Lodge in Tennessee, Destin, Panama City, the magic convention (for our son) in Daytona Beach, San Diego, San Francisco and so on... since December 2011 (we have literally been in one of their resorts since then). We have a spectacular trip booked right now in Hawaii, where we will island hop all summer (Oahu until June, Kauai until July, Big Island until September and then off to Australia where we will visit Cairnes, Surfers Paradise, Torquay Victoria, Tasmania, Sydney and then New Zealand). After that we are headed back to California to finish up our annual passes at Disneyland. What's not to LOVE?

Everytime we check in we are greeted with huge smiles and by people who usually remember us from past extended stays and always treat us like family. Ecspecially here in Oahu. Our kids become very close to the staff and I am reminded of the story "Eloise at the Plaza". It is so wonderful that they can have this experience to distract them from the medical problems with their dad. What better place to be than DisneyWorld while your father is going through chemo treatment for a year at MD Anderson in Florida? Plus, we have the most amazing rooms (not sure if Wyndham can be beat) and maid service too! Awesome.

However, in order to live this lifestyle we obviously had to take on some debt and figure out a way to pay for it. We were talked into a platinum ownership with Wyndham because of the reserve, hold, cancel, re-reserve and discount/ upgrade process. We were also told that we could pay our fees by renting out the units we "saved" on. I have been taking advantage of this wonderful system for about 2 years now and it does work (for us)- probably because we avoid all the costs associated with living in a house. We have met several other owners who do exactly what we do, minus the children usually.

We are not trying to wage a war against Wyndham after we have had such wonderful experiences. Unfortunately, 1 bad experience can lead to elevated frustrations and "cat fights". Obviously staying with the resorts for so long- there are bound to be problems. Lately, it has gotten just ugly. 

Last year we were advised by Wyndham Owner care to book any overlapping reservations under the mis-spelled names that had been accidently added to our account over the years through all our purchases. Keep in mind that sometimes we needed extra rooms because we have 7 of us and couldn't get a big enough unit, family/friends were visiting, or my husband needed a place to retreat during his treatments. Anything I rented out always had a guest name added to it so that the guest could check in. 

One day I went to make reservations and the extra misspelled names were removed from my account as was my father's name (who is the original owner and is still alive). I am now only able to make 2 reservations within a 2 week period (so I thought)- 1 under my name and 1 under my husbands name. This is necessary for the reasons mentioned above (especially this summer in Maui when we have two 1 bedroom units reserved for our family of 7 for a month). *However, a few days ago one of those reservations (under my husbands name) was canceled within a week of check in date and the points were forfeited.*

We found out from the front desk and from owner care that there is an actual person (not the computer system) who is going into our account (works for Wyndham) and cancelling our reservations as they see fit. This particular reservation was for a very rare 4 bedroom presidential unit at Waikiki Beach Walk (they only have 1 for booking). I booked it figuring that it would be an awesome (luxury) experience for us if it didn't rent. We have another unit at the resort under my name in case it did rent and obviously the person who canceled it decided that 1 was enough. 

Rentals are not big for me in Hawaii (strange enough). In fact, I have only rented about 5 units this entire time in Hawaii. I assumed it wouldn't rent and our family was actually super excited to stay in the 4 bedroom. We feel (obviously, not everyone agrees) that they are our points and if we want to "waste" them on 2 units at 1 time, then that's our right. We paid a lot of money to acquire them and we pay every month to maintain them. We weren't breaking any rules by having the 2 reservations since they didn't overlap with anything else. 

I didn't come on to this site to whine and complain, but I realize that I was. I didn't mean to offend, upset or bring more harm to my family (I am told if I make people upset then they will just come after me more)... I just wanted to inform other owners that this can happen. People at Wyndham can indeed access your account and your personal information, change your account and cancel reservations at their will. I have been told by the Wyndham lawyer that they "googled me" and now here on the tug site I have people doing it again (obviously Wyndham legal). None of what's happening has anything to do with the staff on site- they have actually advised that I contact a lawyer, too. There shouldn't be anyone but myself and family in our account- PERIOD. If you have doubts about what I'm saying then I encourage you to look at all the other complaints from members of Wyndham who have the same sentiment towards them.

Oh- and I was asked about the bad experience that happened that set this all off? We were told at Beaver Creek that we could stay in the same room for several months (I know- above and beyond, but over promised). Suddenly, without much warning we were told we had to move but that the resort would move us- no worries. Well we were completely unprepared and it took a long time (remember they said we had that room for several months, so were settled in). The resort got mad and called us into legal, who then in turn called us and did the following: Said from now on our family would be made to move out and in on a weekly basis - out at 10, in at 4 and to the same unit every week. The lawyer had no idea what I was talking about when I told him that I was taught to book, cancel and rebook and really did ask for all the names of the agents and managers that taught me this practice, which IS a platinum benefit. He did call me a cheat and said we were being penalized for taking advantage of the system. He also offered to help get me out of my points so that we didn't have to "long term stay" anymore. Again, I agree that a promised stay of more than a months time was unnecessary, but awesome (and obviously over promised). If they just would have given us more warning and not told us we were being penalized for using platinum benefits and getting the room so discounted, then it would have been fine. I got upset over the call from the lawyer and the threats and accusations that came from him. They were completely disrespectful and inappropriate.

For a family who has been absolutely loving Wyndham and all the travel (and HAS had their story told without compensation- someone asked about this- at several sales sites), this has been a huge blow to our confidence in the system. Also, we did try to lay low and even left the Beaver Creek site... but obviously this lawyer has set the hound dogs on us and it may never stop. All because of an unexpected messy, very late check out. 

By the way- I keep getting asked about my maintenance fee- I couldn't understand what this was about until I re-read the posts and realized that my teenage daughter (who is very upset by all this) posted a letter and mistakenly inflated the amount we were paying in fees. The other tugs member is correct that we are paying closer to $2500 per month in fees- not that it should matter... but maybe this will help if anyone has any advice on how to get Wyndham off my back... all loans and fees are up to date. Also, our case has been escalated by owner care and we are hopeful that it will be resolved soon. (although the resort has already rented out our 4 bedroom unit to someone else, so not sure what they can do). Once again- we use the majority of our points to vacation with, and the majority of our points are through Wyndham- not resale... although it shouldn't matter and if I'd known better, I would have purchased more resale... so kuddos to those of you own resale. Plus, I will re-iterate that our problems started after a cat fight with the managers at Beaver Creek (awesome front desk staff) who obviously had friends in high places. To be CLEAR, we add a guest confirmation to every rental we do. I used to check in friends and family, but now I can't because we only have 2 names on our account and need them for our stays.

So there it is... Its awesome- until it's not... then it can get really sour. And if you don't care or are annoyed by my post- then please don't read it. If you have any contacts that might be able to help our case or something similar has happened to you and you can offer me advice (I really don't want to get lawyers involved) then I'd appreciate if someone could turn me in the right direction or message me with Wyndham contact info that might be helpful. I truly appreciate all the views and all the help that has been offered thus far. This really can be a great company- if you don't get on their bad side. No complaints, because with Wyndham the customer is always wrong and if you have a problem keep it to yourself and try to enjoy your vacation anyway. Just saying...

Thank you


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## travelwyndham (May 14, 2015)

The actions taken against us were all at the corporate level. A lawyer with Wyndham (probably a friend of the manager's at Beaver Creek) started all these troubles. You are right about the removal of my father's name... but title and deeding say he was removed when we did a trade (he wasn't there, though), so not sure what happened. It was fine until the lawyer went snooping around in our account (the trade was done years ago and my father was removed this March, 2015). I appreciate your supportive comments. I do agree about keeping us in same room, that its usually better for everyone. However, maybe more than a month at a time was too much- and the resort realized their mistake, then tried to blame us. We never had a problem with Wyndham until now (we've owned since the fairfield days) and just went platinum and started renting in 2012.


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## travelwyndham (May 14, 2015)

I didn't say that I had the airline and rental car situation figured out for Australia, yet. I just said that I had the reservations. I was actually going to post and ask for any advice on this. We are obviously very hopeful that it will work out and (not that its any of your business, we have been saving like crazy since we moved out of house and starting renting it out in 2011- no longer paycheck to paycheck, and the rentals are key to our maintenance fees). Also, my husband is a combat related medically retired veteran. One of our benefits is space A travel. Just not sure if its going to get us to Australia or not. We'll see. Would make for interesting travel post if it works out. I appreciate that you are following my thread (hopefully without bad intentions), but I don't need anyone to "buy" my story- not selling anything. I am just looking for others with similar experiences who might be able to offer me some help and also, putting out a warning that this can (unfortunately) happen. Thank you, Christine


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## tschwa2 (May 14, 2015)

If your father is still on at least one of the deeds in the account, it shouldn't be a problem for him to be put back on the account.  If he know longer travels with you, he obviously wouldn't be able to check in but should be able to be used as a place keeper for reservations.  If the deeds were changed several years back and he no longer appears on any of the deeds, even though they may not have removed him from the account at that time and have recently done so, it is what it is.  Your options would be to re-deed one of the weeks or buy a new week with him on the deed.


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## travelwyndham (May 14, 2015)

Oh My Gosh- Thank You Thank You! I really DO NEED a break. I am absolutely desperate. I get it- We may not be brilliant with our finances, but please give me a break. Sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures. My husband has a terminal brain tumor and we are doing everything we can to travel as much as possible while we still have this chance. He has far exceeded doctors expectations and all they can say is "keep doing what your doing because it seems to be working". I mean how awesome is it that we turned a year of chemotherapy into a disney experience... Most of my reservations made, were made with the intention or possibility that we might be the people checking in. Then if we decide to stay elsewhere- we rent out and extend the experience to someone else. I thought I was so brilliant by booking almost an entire summer at an actual Disney resort so we could go back and stay at Saratoga Springs instead of Bonnet Creek (I booked 2 for every week for our family of 7). Plus some to rent out to help with costs (thought that was ok). We intended to go back after Beaver Creek, but when that happened we diverted the plans to Hawaii (which I booked a year ago because "we might go back")and decided to try the Space A flight from there to Australia. If it doesn't work then we have units booked at Bonnet Creek for the fall as our back up plan.


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## Free2Roam (May 14, 2015)

You lost me at "teenager"



travelwyndham said:


> Hi my name is Aspen and we own over 6 million points. {snip}... I might be only a teenager but I stay in Wyndhams all the times and every day I am asked by at least 4 families how I like it and how they are thinking about buying.


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## Jason245 (May 14, 2015)

I am confused how a teenager has a husband with a brain tumor and many kids. .


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## travelwyndham (May 14, 2015)

travelwyndham said:


> Hi my name is Aspen and we own over 6 million points. We do extended stays with wyndham, rent our our house and travel the world and maybe you have heard of us because a lot of time share people share our story and sell by our name. Now someone is physically going into our account and cancelling our reservations. They just cancelled our 4 bedroom presidential in Hawaii and took all of our points with it. It's not even the computer, it's a real person in owner care. So we have had problems with you guys for a long time now and are issues are not being resolved. I don't know what you guys plan on doing about our 4 bedroom but we either need it or are points refunded. You guys are stealing from us and if this doesn't stop happening that's fine. I'm sure my parents would be happy to take their timeshare update every two weeks and complain very loudly so everyone else can hear what cheats you have been. I use to love Wyndham, it's like our second home and the staff has always been like family but what is happening is unacceptable and everyone refuses to help. Each day you don't resolve the issue, I am talking to people in the hot tubs why not to buy. I use to tell them all the wonderful reason to buy but I'm telling them everything you guys have done to us. At bonnet creek they destroyed about 400 dollars in luggage with letting ice cream and frozen strawberries sit on our stuff when moving our room, they never refunded us. In beaver creek they lost about 100 dollars of stuff moving us and they never refunded us and now it's people physically going into our account and removing our rooms. I might be only a teenager but I stay in Wyndhams all the times and every day I am asked by at least 4 families how I like it and how they are thinking about buying. I'm just telling them everything you have done to us. Please resolve this issue and I will have nothing to say and if you can't, I will tell my story all over.  Wyndhams are beautiful but for having over a 2500 dollar maintenance fee a month, they sure do treat us awful.


This was written by my daughter- thought about erasing it, but was interesting to see it from another perspective. Sorry for the mis-information on the maintenance fees... I think she put together the fees and loan. All fees and loan are current on this account and have always been current- so that wasn't the reason any points were canceled... wish it was because then it would be an easier fix. She has a very valid point- the kids spend a lot of time at the resorts in the pools, hot tubs, activities rooms and so on... If they aren't happy they are probably letting people know. When they are happy they are passing that along as well. I know that a happy customer is always better for business- even the young ones. Thank you


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## Jason245 (May 14, 2015)

I think it all comes down to one very simple thing.  You have contract and have paid money  (given consideration ) for something.  If they are not fulfilling the contract,  send them a certified letter indicating that they have failed to fulfill their obligation and make your demands with a hard deadline.  If they do not meet the deadline take appropriate action.


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## scootr5 (May 14, 2015)

travelwyndham said:


> All fees and loan are current on this account and have always been current- so that wasn't the reason any points were canceled... wish it was because then it would be an easier fix.



Just to be clear because you mention "this account", do you have another Wyndham account that is _not_ current?


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## travelwyndham (May 14, 2015)

Jason245 said:


> I am confused how a teenager has a husband with a brain tumor and many kids. .



What? No, this is from our daughter. LOL 
She's putting her 2 cents into the situation at hand. I was going to delete it, but figured that she was entitled to an opinion. 

Oh- and No, Just 1 membership (we have several contracts under 1 membership because we bought several times). 

Thanks for the replies. We were told that we would need a lawyer in the state we "reside" in which is Colorado. Prefer to stay out of any court rooms and keep traveling. Hoping that the situation will work out. I think that the person who was cruising along cancelling our reservations, messed up. Although it sucks for us, they finally screwed up and hopefully now we can get them off our backs.


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## am1 (May 14, 2015)

Best luck.  The someone else would have booked the 4 bedroom presidential after it was cancelled.  The resort did not rent it out.  

Most likely you will be lucky to get your points back but you can ask if they can put you in the model unit.  It is a long shot as you will run into the resort and Wyndham brushing you off and sales against it.  

Once my 3 bedroom presidential was given away that I had booked for 5 nights.  I showed up at 11pm with my family arriving the next morning.  Apparently they had just given it away to another guest as there were no more clean 2 bedroom deluxe units available.  It was a Sunday so maybe they just clean as many as are needed that evening and ended up one short.  This is at a resort where I do have no shows or they go unused so it would be easily for them to think giving the other guest my room would have worked.  Just bad timing.  The next morning I was put into the model unit.  It did take time to get it habitable so do not leave it to the last minute.


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## Bigrob (May 14, 2015)

am1 said:


> Best luck.  The someone else would have booked the 4 bedroom presidential after it was cancelled.  The resort did not rent it out.
> 
> Most likely you will be lucky to get your points back but you can ask if they can put you in the model unit.  It is a long shot as you will run into the resort and Wyndham brushing you off and sales against it.
> 
> Once my 3 bedroom presidential was given away that I had booked for 5 nights.  I showed up at 11pm with my family arriving the next morning.  Apparently they had just given it away to another guest as there were no more clean 2 bedroom deluxe units available.  It was a Sunday so maybe they just clean as many as are needed that evening and ended up one short.  This is at a resort where I do have no shows or they go unused so it would be easily for them to think giving the other guest my room would have worked.  Just bad timing.  The next morning I was put into the model unit.  It did take time to get it habitable so do not leave it to the last minute.



Adam - thanks for sharing... I wondered about this.


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## Bigrob (May 14, 2015)

travelwyndham said:


> IOh- and I was asked about the bad experience that happened that set this all off? We were told at Beaver Creek that we could stay in the same room for several months (I know- above and beyond, but over promised). Suddenly, without much warning we were told we had to move but that the resort would move us- no worries. Well we were completely unprepared and it took a long time (remember they said we had that room for several months, so were settled in). The resort got mad and called us into legal, who then in turn called us and did the following: Said from now on our family would be made to move out and in on a weekly basis - out at 10, in at 4 and to the same unit every week. The lawyer had no idea what I was talking about when I told him that I was taught to book, cancel and rebook and really did ask for all the names of the agents and managers that taught me this practice, which IS a platinum benefit. He did call me a cheat and said we were being penalized for taking advantage of the system. He also offered to help get me out of my points so that we didn't have to "long term stay" anymore. Again, I agree that a promised stay of more than a months time was unnecessary, but awesome (and obviously over promised). If they just would have given us more warning and not told us we were being penalized for using platinum benefits and getting the room so discounted, then it would have been fine. I got upset over the call from the lawyer and the threats and accusations that came from him. They were completely disrespectful and inappropriate.



I am trying to make sure I understand this. You were told you would not have to move; then you were told you would have to move, but that the resort staff would take care of moving your items for you; and then... you were called into legal because the resort felt it took you too long? And you've been hounded and persecuted ever since?

If this is the truth, and your story is being used in presentations without compensation, I don't think you go to lawyers. I think you contact the executives in charge of owner experience. Perhaps a direct contact with Mark Johnson, Chief Hospitality Officer, would be helpful. Just make sure you have your facts, screenshots, etc. ready to share.

Good luck, I hope it works out for you.


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## am1 (May 14, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> Adam - thanks for sharing... I wondered about this.



In my case the resort caused the situation.  The OP will find the resort say Wyndham caused the situation and wyndham will say the room has since been booked.  Probably after checking to see if the 1 4 bedroom presidential at the resort just happens to available at that moment.  They may even suggest to keep checking as you never know when a cancellation may happen.  I find that one funny in these cases. Wyndham will refund the points and suggest the op make alternate arrangements or offer 2 smaller rooms is available but they already have a second unit.


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## Bigrob (May 15, 2015)

am1 said:


> In my case the resort caused the situation.  The OP will find the resort say Wyndham caused the situation and wyndham will say the room has since been booked.  Probably after checking to see if the 1 4 bedroom presidential at the resort just happens to available at that moment.  They may even suggest to keep checking as you never know when a cancellation may happen.  I find that one funny in these cases. Wyndham will refund the points and suggest the op make alternate arrangements or offer 2 smaller rooms is available but they already have a second unit.



Yes, that's a good distinction to make. At many of the resorts they will bend over backward for YOU as a guest/owner - but not for Wyndham. If corporate screwed up, they will quickly say there is nothing they can do.

I had an odd situation today where I had booked a 2BR Deluxe at OB. It was a split reservation, but the same unit type. However, when I checked at the resort level, the first 2 nights had been passed over as a 2BR Deluxe Ocean View. So they said they couldn't group it. Yet my reservation through the corporate system still shows 2BR Deluxe, and I didn't upgrade it.


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## ronparise (May 15, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> Yes, that's a good distinction to make. At many of the resorts they will bend over backward for YOU as a guest/owner - but not for Wyndham. If corporate screwed up, they will quickly say there is nothing they can do.



I dont think thats always the case. I presented a "corporate" problem Im having at one resort to the  resort manager. He sees the problem and has agreed to meet with me to discuss it further.  Ultimately the answer may be that there is nothing he can do, but I get the sense he's going to at least try.


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## travelwyndham (May 16, 2015)

*Update to cancelation of room by Wyndham*

Well it's been several days and we have been working with Karen Eppes, in owner care. I assumed that by today (Friday) we would have all this resolved, especially because check in is on SUNDAY. However, the sneaky sob's called and left a message that they would now get back to me on Monday (a day after we are supposed to check into the room that was cancelled. 

The front desk at the Wyndham Waikiki Beach Walk is doing everything they can and seem to "have our back", but they can't refund the points and they are doing everything they can to try to put us in the model unit, since it's all that's left. They agree that the notes left behind with the cancelation and the return emails from the people who canceled it, are very inconsistent.

When the reservation was first canceled on Monday, the note said that it was canceled because the reservation was under my daughters name and she isn't old enough to check in. When I showed them the reservation and confirmation number they agreed that it was under my husbands name. Said they look into it. They emailed back and said that it was in my husbands name, but was overlapping with another reservation. When I sent a picture of 2 weeks worth of reservations showing no overlapping- they agreed and said they'd get back to me. Now today they tried to tell me that it was because the reservation was under another name that was no longer on the account (I mentioned that they took my father off the account without permission in March) and that the "computer" linked that name with my husbands name and then canceled it since the initial reservation wouldn't have been valid. 

I think that by the time I talk to them Monday, they will suddenly realize that the reservation was actually made in my dog's name and a pet can't check in.

So just to recap... We had 2 reservations at the resort. 1 under made under my husbands name and 1 under my name. I have pictures proving that there are no overlapping reservations and I have presented those to owner care, who confirmed it. The reservation under my husbands name was canceled 6 days before check in and the case was escalated, but 2 days prior to check in date, we are still without the rooms or refund of points. Now we are told everyone will be out of office until 1 day after check in is supposed to occur. 

Please be cautious when dealing with Wyndham. We get along great with the front desk staff and even the sales team (we should after spending so much $$$), and they are all trying to help... however, this is at the Owner Care level.


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## CO skier (May 16, 2015)

travelwyndham said:


> The lawyer had no idea what I was talking about when I told him that I was taught to book, cancel and rebook and really did ask for all the names of the agents and managers that taught me this practice, which IS a platinum benefit.



This is where you and many others go wrong.  Look up the true VIP benefits in the Wyndham directory (pages 346-347 in the 2015 directory), and you will not find Cancel-Rebook listed.  What you will find is, “Points Discounts within 60 Days of Check-In” for “NEW reservations.”  Cancel-Rebook artificially creates inventory to be booked as a “New” reservation by cancelling an existing reservation and, as fast as possible before anyone else can have a chance at it, Re-booking that exact reservation as a “New” reservation.  This is not a VIP benefit, it is a technical loophole.  It works, so sales weasels use it to sell VIP ownerships.  (They are not known for their honesty).

The Wyndham lawyer is correct.  Cancel-Rebook used by VIP owners to turn any reservation into a discount reservation within the 60-day window is a manipulation that cheats the system.  Think about it; if it is not a cheat, VIP owners could make any reservation at anytime for their respective 50%, 35% or 25% discount.

Wyndham has recognized that Cancel-Rebook cheats the system since at least 2008, but they have not addressed the problem, so it works until it doesn’t.  The Eye of Wyndham is not on the bots (if they exist), either.  The result is that cancellations within 60 days of check-in are the Wild West – complete with vigilante justice and survival of the quickest draw.


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## CO skier (May 16, 2015)

*More confused than ever*



travelwyndham said:


> The reservation under my husbands name was canceled 6 days before check in and the case was escalated, but 2 days prior to check in date, we are still without the rooms or refund of points.



I thought you had another room booked and the 4 BR was intended as a rental (so you did not necessarily plan to have that unit).  Did you lose both rooms and now have no rooms, as your post suggests?

If you only lost the 4 BR, can check into your other unit, and are eventually refunded your points for the 4 BR, as you should be if what you write is true (difficult to determine), isn't that the same (pointwise) as if the 4 BR had rented?  (You do not get the cash payment for the 4 BR rental from a renter, but you get the point refund "payment" from Wyndham).

Hindsight being 20/20, but of value going forward, if you put your husband's name on a guest certificate for $99 for the concurrent unit, instead of relying on what Wyndham "should do" regarding concurrent reservations, you might not have these kinds of problems.  Sure these are additional costs, but $99 to (I guess virtually) guarantee a 4 BR in Hawaii, or multiple units later in Maui, would be well worth it.  jmho


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## jcraycraft (May 16, 2015)

*Cheating the system*



CO skier said:


> This is where you and many others go wrong.  Look up the true VIP benefits in the Wyndham directory (pages 346-347 in the 2015 directory), and you will not find Cancel-Rebook listed.  What you will find is, “Points Discounts within 60 Days of Check-In” for “NEW reservations.”  Cancel-Rebook artificially creates inventory to be booked as a “New” reservation by cancelling an existing reservation and, as fast as possible before anyone else can have a chance at it, Re-booking that exact reservation as a “New” reservation.  This is not a VIP benefit, it is a technical loophole.  It works, so sales weasels use it to sell VIP ownerships.  (They are not known for their honesty).
> 
> The Wyndham lawyer is correct.  Cancel-Rebook used by VIP owners to turn any reservation into a discount reservation within the 60-day window is a manipulation that cheats the system.  Think about it; if it is not a cheat, VIP owners could make any reservation at anytime for their respective 50%, 35% or 25% discount.
> 
> Wyndham has recognized that Cancel-Rebook cheats the system since at least 2008, but they have not addressed the problem, so it works until it doesn’t.  The Eye of Wyndham is not on the bots (if they exist), either.  The result is that cancellations within 60 days of check-in are the Wild West – complete with vigilante justice and survival of the quickest draw.



It appears that you are absolutely right that "cancel-rebook" is not found in the VIP section of the directory.  Probably because canceling a reservation is found on page 324 and is available to everyone not just VIP's. 

Then if I go over to the pages 346-347-it appears that booking a reservation within the appropriate amount of days until check-in does allow for a discount and/or upgrade.

These are 2 separate functions and currently are permissible as far as I can tell. Appears to be more than a privilege.

It appears the problem with this whole topic is the made-up phrase "cancel-Rebook" and trying to turn it into a 1 step process which it is not or at least that's how I see it.

And as everything that Wyndham does--it is subject to change in order to benefit the stockholders account.  That's why I hedged my Timeshare purchase by buying Wyndham stock.


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## traveldaddy (May 16, 2015)

jcraycraft said:


> It appears that you are absolutely right that "cancel-rebook" is not found in the VIP section of the directory.  Probably because canceling a reservation is found on page 324 and is available to everyone not just VIP's.
> 
> Then if I go over to the pages 346-347-it appears that booking a reservation within the appropriate amount of days until check-in does allow for a discount and/or upgrade.
> 
> ...



I agree. I am not a VIP, but I have thought about doing the same sort of idea. 

Booking a 3 day at the 10 month mark, when I only want a 2 day, and then waiting until within the period that allows 2 day ressies and canceling and booking the 2 day.

Burns up a RT bt if it is what you want, the system and rules seem to allow it. 

Never actually done this, but considered it and may try it in the future. 


Not as sure about the stock though......I will have to look into that more.


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## ronparise (May 16, 2015)

jcraycraft said:


> It appears that you are absolutely right that "cancel-rebook" is not found in the VIP section of the directory.  Probably because canceling a reservation is found on page 324 and is available to everyone not just VIP's.
> 
> Then if I go over to the pages 346-347-it appears that booking a reservation within the appropriate amount of days until check-in does allow for a discount and/or upgrade.
> 
> ...



Hard to call a cancel


and



subsequent rebook separate transactions when they are both done within a few seconds.  Technically of course they are and thats the loophole that makes it work

It is not what was intended, The intent was that VIPs get a discount to encourage them to make reservations for rooms that would otherwise stand vacant



All that Wyndham has to do to stop the practice is to build in a variable delay between when I cancel and when it becomes available again


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## vacationhopeful (May 16, 2015)

ronparise said:


> ...All that Wyndham has to do to stop the practice is to build in a variable delay between when I cancel and when it becomes available again



Ron,

Before you started playing in this sandbox .. Wyndham did have a delay .... nothing cancelled showed up til the next day when the computer system came back up @ 8AM.... 

Just like ARP booking now - calling the call center or booking online at 8AM.

Cancel and rebook was not something used a lot .... 

Seldom wish for those good old days ... although the $29 GCs were nice as were the unlimited FREE GCs for Platinum owners.


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## ronparise (May 16, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> Ron,
> 
> Before you started playing in this sandbox .. Wyndham did have a delay .... nothing cancelled showed up til the next day when the computer system came back up @ 8AM....
> 
> ...



All those changes ($99 guest confirms, no owner to owner transfer of points, instant availability of cancellations, etc)  happened before my time and were all done with an eye to making it more difficult and less profitable for the mega renters of the day.  And yet I was able to find room to operate, and so have lots of oters, and the definition of mega renter has expanded to the points managers.  Then million used to be big, now 30 million doesnt come close to being big

Im not wishing for anything. All Im saying is that Wyndham could take action again, and there will be some owners that it puts out of business (maybe you and me) and yet others that adapt and thrive


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## Bigrob (May 16, 2015)

traveldaddy said:


> I agree. I am not a VIP, but I have thought about doing the same sort of idea.
> 
> Booking a 3 day at the 10 month mark, when I only want a 2 day, and then waiting until within the period that allows 2 day ressies and canceling and booking the 2 day.
> 
> ...



Same here... often you have to book more nights than you want to get the reservation you need. Later you hope to be able to cancel and rebook to the reservation you actually want.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.


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## Bigrob (May 16, 2015)

CO skier said:


> I thought you had another room booked and the 4 BR was intended as a rental (so you did not necessarily plan to have that unit).  Did you lose both rooms and now have no rooms, as your post suggests?
> 
> If you only lost the 4 BR, can check into your other unit, and are eventually refunded your points for the 4 BR, as you should be if what you write is true (difficult to determine), isn't that the same (pointwise) as if the 4 BR had rented?  (You do not get the cash payment for the 4 BR rental from a renter, but you get the point refund "payment" from Wyndham).
> 
> Hindsight being 20/20, but of value going forward, if you put your husband's name on a guest certificate for $99 for the concurrent unit, instead of relying on what Wyndham "should do" regarding concurrent reservations, you might not have these kinds of problems.  Sure these are additional costs, but $99 to (I guess virtually) guarantee a 4 BR in Hawaii, or multiple units later in Maui, would be well worth it.  jmho



Why should an owner be required to put a guest confirmation on a unit they are occupying? It is perfectly legitimate to have separate owners on reservations and if this happened as described, Wyndham screwed up, plain and simple.

And by the way, it is not clear that even that would have "guaranteed" the reservation, as you suggest. I know am1 (Adam) has had a reservation cancelled that had a guest confirmation on it. 

Obviously, one can argue that owner's "shouldn't" book, cancel and immediately rebook to take advantage of the VIP discount. That it's a loophole in the system and is not working the way it is supposed to, therefore owners should not be taking advantage of it, and if something bad happens as a result, well that's just too bad. But the counterpoint to that argument is that there are still costs associated with implementing this strategy - the OP no doubt booked that 4BR Presidential either using ARP or right at 10-months, and the number of points required to secure that reservation at that time is very high. They tied up possibly a million points for 10 or more months, and 2 months or so prior get the points back as cancelled points they need to use before the end of the year. Sure, they end up getting the 4BR Presidential for a ridiculously low number of points - but it's easy to lose sight of the "costs" associated with implementing this strategy.

There are loopholes in the Worldmark system too, it's just that they are different and may require multiple accounts. That system doesn't allow the same degree or type of manipulation, but creative owners still have found ways to "cheat" that system (using it in ways not intended). And, like Wyndham, there are even folks working for Worldmark that share these "cheats" to, as they describe it, "help owners get the most out of their ownership". 

Having said all of that, my experience, and the experience of many others, has been that in general, Wyndham and Owner Care are not "out to get us" for using the system. That's why I wonder if there might not still be more to this story, as being slow to move from one unit to the next after being told they'd have help to move, does not seem to be reason enough to trigger what does appear to be a pattern of paying "special attention" to this account.


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## Bigrob (May 16, 2015)

ronparise said:


> I dont think thats always the case. I presented a "corporate" problem Im having at one resort to the  resort manager. He sees the problem and has agreed to meet with me to discuss it further.  Ultimately the answer may be that there is nothing he can do, but I get the sense he's going to at least try.



I agree it's not always the case, and to the extent they can, they do try to work with you. My point was that there is often a difference between the experience dealing with resort staff versus corporate Wyndham, and that the resort staff often joins with their guests at lamenting some of the "issues" associated with Corporate. This seems more true at former Fairfield resorts.


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## CO skier (May 16, 2015)

jcraycraft said:


> It appears that you are absolutely right that "cancel-rebook" is not found in the VIP section of the directory.  Probably because canceling a reservation is found on page 324 and is available to everyone not just VIP's.
> 
> Then if I go over to the pages 346-347-it appears that booking a reservation within the appropriate amount of days until check-in does allow for a discount and/or upgrade.
> 
> ...


Opinions vary, but in the end, only Wyndham’s opinion matters, because Wyndham makes and enforces the rules (or not) as they see fit.  If a Wyndham lawyer thinks that two rights make a wrong, then that is the way it is until a successful lawsuit changes their opinion.


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## CO skier (May 16, 2015)

ronparise said:


> All those changes ($99 guest confirms, no owner to owner transfer of points, instant availability of cancellations, etc)  happened before my time and were all done with an eye to making it more difficult and less profitable for the mega renters of the day.



A relative few owners abused the rules in place at that time and ruined it for everyone.


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## Bigrob (May 16, 2015)

CO skier said:


> A relative few owners abused the rules in place at that time and ruined it for everyone.



LOL... the owners you speak of were coached to use the system in the way they were using it. Rather than thinking they were "abusing" the system, they thought they were doing exactly what they were allowed, and even encouraged, to do, in order for Wyndham to sell more points. 

And the Wyndham party line is that, rather than "ruining it for everyone," the changes implemented are designed to make it more likely that an owner trying to make reservations for personal use has a fighting chance to do so. The only change that impacted the casual owner is the lack of ability to trade points with other owners. The tighter cancellation rules might have caught a few, but generally speaking a call to Owner Care to explain the circumstances will result in a restoration of points on a one-time basis for a cancellation within 15 days. It used to be mega-renters would NEVER release the inventory because they could cancel right up to the day before check-in. (Ironically there are now mega-renters who take advantage of even this rule).


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## CO skier (May 16, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> Why should an owner be required to put a guest confirmation on a unit they are occupying? It is perfectly legitimate to have separate owners on reservations and if this happened as described, Wyndham screwed up, plain and simple.


They should not have to put a GC in place, but the OP is worried about the double bookings this summer.  A GC is the only idea I have to provide any kind of insurance.  Or they can take their chances, Wyndham screws up again, and they lose the reservations.  They are right, Wyndham is wrong, but they are left with too many people for only the 1 bedroom unit that is left.




Bigrob said:


> And by the way, it is not clear that even that would have "guaranteed" the reservation, as you suggest. I know am1 (Adam) has had a reservation cancelled that had a guest confirmation on it.



There are no certainties.  That is why I used the word "virtually."




Bigrob said:


> Obviously, one can argue that owner's "shouldn't" book, cancel and immediately rebook to take advantage of the VIP discount. That it's a loophole in the system and is not working the way it is supposed to, therefore owners should not be taking advantage of it, and if something bad happens as a result, well that's just too bad. But the counterpoint to that argument is that there are still costs associated with implementing this strategy - the OP no doubt booked that 4BR Presidential either using ARP or right at 10-months, and the number of points required to secure that reservation at that time is very high. They tied up possibly a million points for 10 or more months, and 2 months or so prior get the points back as cancelled points they need to use before the end of the year. Sure, they end up getting the 4BR Presidential for a ridiculously low number of points - but it's easy to lose sight of the "costs" associated with implementing this strategy.


I did not get the impression that they were trying the cancel-rebook with either reservation.  Wyndham cancelled the 4 BR Presidential for reasons that are still sketchy.  The Eye of Wyndham is clearly upon their account, so they need to tread cautiously and not invite further interest.




Bigrob said:


> There are loopholes in the Worldmark system too, it's just that they are different and may require multiple accounts. That system doesn't allow the same degree or type of manipulation, but creative owners still have found ways to "cheat" that system (using it in ways not intended). And, like Wyndham, there are even folks working for Worldmark that share these "cheats" to, as they describe it, "help owners get the most out of their ownership".


There are loopholes in any complex system.  Hopefully, the abuses by a few will not ruin it for all of us WorldMark owners.




Bigrob said:


> Having said all of that, my experience, and the experience of many others, has been that in general, Wyndham and Owner Care are not "out to get us" for using the system. That's why I wonder if there might not still be more to this story, as being slow to move from one unit to the next after being told they'd have help to move, does not seem to be reason enough to trigger what does appear to be a pattern of paying "special attention" to this account.


The same thought occurred to me.  Someone would have to really work at inviting wrath of this magnitude.


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## am1 (May 16, 2015)

All this begs the question why would someone want to purchase a Wyndham timeshare as a normal owner?  Retail or resale.  It is a lot of headaches and horseflies to deal with it.


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## DeniseM (May 16, 2015)

am1 said:


> All this begs the question why would someone want to purchase a Wyndham timeshare as a normal owner?  Retail or resale.  It is a lot of headaches and horseflies to deal with it.



Deeded weeks, with no points, at a resort you want to visit every year, work great.

My only complaint about Kauai Beach Villas is that I wish they had an automated reservation system.  Their humans are not very efficient.


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## CO skier (May 16, 2015)

Bigrob said:


> The only change that impacted the casual owner is the lack of ability to trade points with other owners.



That is a pretty good privilege that I use in my WorldMark account and wish I could use in my Club Wyndham account.

I have also had to buy a few of the $99 Guest Certificates and thank those mega-renters of yore when I do.


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## scootr5 (May 16, 2015)

am1 said:


> All this begs the question why would someone want to purchase a Wyndham timeshare as a normal owner?  Retail or resale.  It is a lot of headaches and horseflies to deal with it.



I don't know, I'd consider myself a "normal resale owner" and I don't think it's too many headaches. They have a wide selection of resorts in a ton of different locations with great flexibility of use.


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## am1 (May 16, 2015)

Apparently a Thursday - Saturday and Saturday - Monday split reservation is not really a split reservation but should always require 2 guest confirmation fees paid to add a guest name to the reservation.


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## Bigrob (May 16, 2015)

CO skier said:


> I did not get the impression that they were trying the cancel-rebook with either reservation.  Wyndham cancelled the 4 BR Presidential for reasons that are still sketchy.  The Eye of Wyndham is clearly upon their account, so they need to tread cautiously and not invite further interest.



The odds of a week-long reservation in a 4BR Presidential being available "on its own" inside the discount window is virtually nil. They didn't specify that they had cancelled and rebooked it inside the discount window, but I can "virtually" guarantee that they did. That it was then cancelled by Wyndham inside the 15-day window was a separate event, so it wasn't that they lost it in the original re-book. At least, that's my best guess.


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## CruiseGuy (May 16, 2015)

am1 said:


> Apparently a Thursday - Saturday and Saturday - Monday split reservation is not really a split reservation but should always require 2 guest confirmation fees paid to add a guest name to the reservation.



I would think that this would depend on the availability of a single unit, and also the time of year.  If it's during Prime season for the resort, and requires a check in or check out on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, then it would require two guest confirmations in order to meet those conditions.


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## am1 (May 16, 2015)

Across the board.  The point is the OR rep was out of touch with actual policy and reality but if he says he is the highest you can speak with short of legal where do you go from there.  I know every other agent would not have an issue with this.  No where in the rules I have seen states what I was told either.  

Wyndham is not user friendly even though 98% of the people working for the company go above and beyond.


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## travelwyndham (Jun 10, 2015)

*Wyndham will remove the "flag" on account if we spend $70000 and go to PR?*

Well, it just keeps happening... After Wyndham cancelled our 4 bedroom presidential at Waikiki (3 weeks later they admitted wrongdoing and reinstated the points), they are now saying that they won't honor my reservations for my guests who are set to check in at Wyndham Emerald Grand for Father's Day week. The option is- get my points back or they can have a studio or maybe 1 bedroom unit at Panama City (Emerald Grand has all 3 bedroom units). The guests have their airline tickets, time off from work, etc and its supposed to be a large family reunion (4 units for the entire family). I don't have any other rentals at Emerald Grand. 

I went to my sales update yesterday and was told that this is happening because we are flagged as mega renters. We have approximately 6 million points with a reservation everyday from now until March 2016 (for us to stay in for travel). I rent out points that I get back from getting my discounts on my own stays. 

They offered us a very nice option- buy up to presidential reserve for an additional $70,000 and they will reinstate any reservations on the cancel list, un-flag our account, and stop harassing us. We really can't afford this purchase and most people (Wyndham contacts) are telling me that even if they remove the flag during the recession period, they'll probably reinstate the flag later, or they won't remove the flag in the first place because they are bunch of crooks. Either way, the consensus is that this sounds like extortion or a bribe. 

I wrote in earlier posts hoping for feedback on the issue of them canceling our 4 bedroom. We are currently traveling using our Wyndham points and other timeshare exchanges, hoping to see as much of the world as possible with our 5 children (ages 4-18) because my husband has a terminal brain tumor. 

I've spent way too much time wasting my life on this with Wyndham. However, I need to know that when I book a room and get a confirmation, it will be there when we check in. I also count on these rentals to help me offset my fees and dues with Wyndham. I simply can't afford to start reimbursing people for all their travel fees because Wyndham refuses to honor their guest confirmations (which I pay a $99.00 non refundable fee for). 

Anyway, I'm researching this "mega-renter" issue and came across all your posts. Any feedback is welcome. I can't understand why they want to target such a small fish. By the way- they invited us to the sales meeting to come in and give a speech and "lesson" to all the owner update agents because they loved our story so much. They said that Hanz and Meyers would love us and that we are what Wyndham is all about with traveling and family. We have almost 2 million developer points. Ya, they love us to spend our money and crap on us when we walk out the door. 

Thank you, Christine


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## DeniseM (Jun 10, 2015)

travelwyndham - I have merged your posts on this topic.  

A friendly request:  When you wish to add more info., please post it here in the same thread, rather than starting new threads.  Thank you


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## 55plus (Jun 10, 2015)

I don't think what they are doing is legal. There is no policy concerning renting to others and they accept your $99 per guest certificate so that should constitute a contract between you an Wyndham.


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## tschwa2 (Jun 10, 2015)

The only suggestion I can make is stop attending Sales Updates.  There is no reason for you to go.  There is nothing the sales team can help you with. And of course since their reason to be is to sell, their solution is going to be that you need to buy more points.

 The only group that you might want to sit down with is owner care and then I probably wouldn't do it without an attorney present.  At the very least you may want to look into getting an attorney to write a letter demanding that Wyndham stops cancelling your confirmed reservations.


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## Timelover (Jun 10, 2015)

I have followed Tuggs for a few years but never joined until recently. I have yet to post anything so "1st time poster, long time listener".
I am so utterly confused by this story. There simply has to be more. 
If your troubles started last month, why buy Presidential this month?
If you aren't getting what sales promised in the past, why trust sales now?

I picked up a few things over the years of stalking this site.  I've learned more from BigRob, am1 and Ron Parise than not but I smell more to this story!

I too received a call about Emerald Grande. I have a reservation for June 19. It is for me and my family.
On this call, a very empathetic young lady advised that there was an issue with availability and they were contacting everyone who booked last.  I booked an ARP but did my cancel/ rebook knowing full well I could lose it.  Technically I did book most recent (5/2 to be exact).  I was offered to cancel with all points restored as regular or I could move to a 2BR at Majestic Sun. I chose to cancel and book 3 weeks later, I asked for the same point usage and was actually offered a 75% discount, plus she's pooling my remaining 25% and is a reimbursing my airfare. ($150 per person in changes x 6)
When did you rebook?
I knew to ask for all of this after stalking this page for so long.


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## Timelover (Jun 10, 2015)

I apologize for posting back to back but I have soooo many questions.
I have yet to rent a single booking, only own an inherited million points.

In your original post you state that all reservations had GC on them. You, husband, dad, son and daughter.
Then you post that your daughter is a teenager. Isn't check in 21?

Who's name was on the Hi reservation?
If your husband is terminal and this is the trip of his lifetime, why not just enjoy?

I hate to offend but I really smell some other part of the story you aren't sharing.
It is rare to hear someone so angry without an axe to grind.


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## travelwyndham (Jun 11, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> travelwyndham - I have merged your posts on this topic.
> 
> A friendly request:  When you wish to add more info., please post it here in the same thread, rather than starting new threads.  Thank you



Will do. Thank you.


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## travelwyndham (Jun 11, 2015)

Timelover said:


> I apologize for posting back to back but I have soooo many questions.
> I have yet to rent a single booking, only own an inherited million points.
> 
> In your original post you state that all reservations had GC on them. You, husband, dad, son and daughter.
> ...



No offense taken. The name on the reservation was my husbands. Like I said- Wyndham admitted wrong doing, but not until 3 weeks later and then restored the points. The problem is we wouldn't book the reservations if we wanted the points back. I want the rooms that I'm booking. I'm tired of them taking away and then finding out from the front desk (who is awesome by the way) that the room was given to someone because there was water damage and they (Wyndham) needed our room for another guest. You're right, this is stinky! Yes, my son is a teenager. He's 18 and he's on the accounts. The sales department had him sign the documents and even used his credit card for the monthly fees. Wyndham says that if we want to pay $99 then they will allow me to add his name as a guest, but they remove it and cancel the reservation if he's just added as the traveler to begin with. To have them tell me that if we go to presidential reserve for $70,000 then they'll un-flag our account and leave us alone- that's where I'm like "say what"? I'm not here because I have all this free time that I feel like arguing with people over it. I'm here to tell you all what is happening to us and that it can happen to anyone (I've read several similar stories). I'm not going to defend myself and I don't care if people want to believe what I'm saying. I just think that it would be wrong of me not to share what's been going on because it could happen to you. Thank you


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## Ty1on (Jun 11, 2015)

*A novice perspective*

I'm new to all this and have joined this site because I want to learn as much as possible about timeshare before diving in.  From my review of postings so far, this is my understanding.....

On one hand, a lot of standard owners are complaining that they can never get reservations when they want them outside their home property.  I've seen complaints of Wyndham overselling shares to the point where owners who qualify points-wise for prime times and locations can't get them because those weeks have been scooped up, leaving mere mortals the slim leftovers of unwanted seasons and less desirable units and locations.

On the other hand, I read about owners, some of them mega-renters and some of them simply folks who can afford to own enough points to put them into platinum, allowing them to squeeze the aforementioned mere mortals out of desirable weeks before the masses can even touch them.  Then, these platinum types can recycle their reservations within 60 days of check-ins, so that not only do they have the power to bully everyone else out of those weeks, but they do it with half points, allowing them to bully the same users out of additional weeks, which they then sell on the rental market.

So, in summary, because of a well-intentioned plan by Wyndham to reward their biggest investors and provide incentive to buy more, the vacation wishes of owners who paid good money for their points are being pre-empted by others to generate income for themselves.  Whether you want to apply the euphemism that it is just to cover your maintenance fees, the fact is that it's a profit-seeking operation, whether you rent out all the weeks you reserve or just enough to defray some of your costs.

If I am wrong in my assessment, please correct me.  I am honestly writing this to learn.  If I am right, I can't imagine the everyday owner, who struggles to get the week they want where they want because of those tactics, could have much sympathy for someone who costs them their vacation by manipulating the sytem.

The obvious solution to the cancel/rebook problem would be for Wyndham to install a 96 hour lockout preventing an owner from rebooking at the same resort.  The workaround to that would be for two accounts to partner up, one scooping up the other's cancellation.


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## MaryBella7 (Jun 11, 2015)

PrestonCaldwell said:


> On one hand, a lot of standard owners are complaining that they can never get reservations when they want them outside their home property.  I've seen complaints of Wyndham overselling shares to the point where owners who qualify points-wise for prime times and locations can't get them because those weeks have been scooped up, leaving mere mortals the slim leftovers of unwanted seasons and less desirable units and locations.



There are only a handful of places/times that you wouldn't be able to get at 10 months like Daytona during races or New Orleans during Mardi Gras.  Glacier Canyon weekends and Myrtle Beach in the summertime are a few I know of.  If I wanted to go to those places at those times, I would make sure I owned there (or CWA to those that apply).  Other than the super high-demand places/times, I have had no problem going anywhere I wanted during prime time at 10 months out when it opens to all of the mere mortals.


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## Ty1on (Jun 11, 2015)

lhumes7 said:


> There are only a handful of places/times that you wouldn't be able to get at 10 months like Daytona during races or New Orleans during Mardi Gras.  Glacier Canyon weekends and Myrtle Beach in the summertime are a few I know of.  If I wanted to go to those places at those times, I would make sure I owned there (or CWA to those that apply).  Other than the super high-demand places/times, I have had no problem going anywhere I wanted during prime time at 10 months out when it opens to all of the mere mortals.



That's good to read, and I appreciate the response.  Like I said, I am trying to learn, and in this case trying to reconcile those availability complaints and extra accommodations used by those manipulating the 60 day rule.

I wasn't trying to be incendiary with my "mere mortals" description.  I just chose those words to differentiate between elite and non-elite owner statuses.


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## Ron2 (Jun 11, 2015)

PrestonCaldwell said:


> The obvious solution to the cancel/rebook problem would be for Wyndham to install a 96 hour lockout preventing an owner from rebooking at the same resort.  The workaround to that would be for two accounts to partner up, one scooping up the other's cancellation.



There is reason for your concerns about the impact that the cancel/rebook process has on the average non-VIP owner but as Linda said, if you want a particular reservation just be online at 7:00 AM Eastern when the 10-month window opens and you’ll likely get your reservation.  As for your suggestion of a 96 hour lock out, I’m certain it wouldn’t work because many of the big time operators have multiple accounts that would allow them to immediately pick up the reservation. Wyndham has talked about a wait list which would work if all cancellations during the discount period immediately went to the wait list for booking at the full point value (not discounted).  If no one wants the reservation, then it could be made available for anyone to reserve.


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## ronparise (Jun 11, 2015)

PrestonCaldwell said:


> I'm new to all this and have joined this site because I want to learn as much as possible about timeshare before diving in.  From my review of postings so far, this is my understanding.....
> 
> On one hand, a lot of standard owners are complaining that they can never get reservations when they want them outside their home property.  I've seen complaints of Wyndham overselling shares to the point where owners who qualify points-wise for prime times and locations can't get them because those weeks have been scooped up, leaving mere mortals the slim leftovers of unwanted seasons and less desirable units and locations.
> 
> ...



I think you are wrong... Full disclosure: I have several Platinum  accounts 

The advantage I have is the discount at 60 days, But those discounts are for reservations that are available to all of us,  VIP or not.  Or if I play the cancel and rebook game; its a reservation I already had.  And if I made that reservation you could have made it too

We all play by the same rules and the reservations window opens at the same time for us all. 

Wyndham doesnt oversell  Those points we all have are not created  out of nothing. every point represents a fraction of a piece or realestate.   and they do not sell more than 100% of that piece of property

Mine is a profit making operation but I dont and  I cant "pre-empt" or "squeeze"  anyone


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## jebloomquist (Jun 11, 2015)

PrestonCaldwell said:


> So, in summary, because of a well-intentioned plan by Wyndham to reward their biggest investors and provide incentive to buy more, the vacation wishes of owners who paid good money for their points are being pre-empted by others to generate income for themselves.  Whether you want to apply the euphemism that it is just to cover your maintenance fees, the fact is that it's a profit-seeking operation, whether you rent out all the weeks you reserve or just enough to defray some of your costs.
> 
> If I am wrong in my assessment, please correct me.



First, Wyndham VIP is not a well intentioned plan to reward big investors, but actually an overly hyped program with false promises TO GET big investors. Be clear about that. So, when VIP owners actually use these overly hyped benefits, why are you surprised and offended? Every one of us has been to sales presentations featuring and encouraging us to use these “rent your points for profit” benefits with the same opportunity to buy in. We all know what Wyndham is all about, PROFIT. If you don’t like it, sell out. The system is designed to attract owners who want to find a way to game the system. Why the shock and awe when somebody does it?

Secondly, I do a fair amount of rentals, and I do just receive enough to pay my maintenance fees.

Life is full of used car salesmen. Get used to it. I have just spent a month negotiating with one. We came within $90, but I walked away. Within a week I found something thousands of dollars cheaper and far better. That previous clown wouldn’t budge an additional $90 and lost the sale. You don’t have to buy Wyndham if it doesn’t smell right to you. Hilton, Hyatt, Disney, Marriott, and others will gladly accept your money. Buy and then go complain there. Oh excuse me, you said that you just wanted to learn. Sorry.

I apologize to the rest of you, but I just get fed up with some of the petty complaining that goes on here.

Jim


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## Ty1on (Jun 12, 2015)

jebloomquist said:


> First, Wyndham VIP is not a well intentioned plan to reward big investors, but actually an overly hyped program with false promises TO GET big investors. Be clear about that. So, when VIP owners actually use these overly hyped benefits, why are you surprised and offended? Every one of us has been to sales presentations featuring and encouraging us to use these “rent your points for profit” benefits with the same opportunity to buy in. We all know what Wyndham is all about, PROFIT. If you don’t like it, sell out. The system is designed to attract owners who want to find a way to game the system. Why the shock and awe when somebody does it?
> 
> Secondly, I do a fair amount of rentals, and I do just receive enough to pay my maintenance fees.
> 
> ...



I seriously just want to learn.  I don't own any timeshare, so I have not experienced my example.  No sour grapes here.  If you think I sound offended, maybe you are projecting some of your own affect onto me?  I am a completely uninterested party here.


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## Ty1on (Jun 12, 2015)

ronparise said:


> I think you are wrong... Full disclosure: I have several Platinum  accounts
> 
> The advantage I have is the discount at 60 days, But those discounts are for reservations that are available to all of us,  VIP or not.  Or if I play the cancel and rebook game; its a reservation I already had.  And if I made that reservation you could have made it too
> 
> ...


 But if every point represents a fraction of ownership, and you get half-point deals at 60 days, doesn't that inflate the number of points in use vs the underlying deeds?  

I don't, and didn't, think Wyndham oversells.  My thought, which I may have poorly expressed, was that in the case of those who _complain_ that Wyndham oversells (And I have read exactly those complaints), it may have been a case of the inflation I mentioned above.  I suppose that there would be plenty of points that have been expired, forfeited, or simply unused to account for the extra buying power of the half point deals.

I do appreciate the non-patronizing responses to my question.


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## uscav8r (Jun 12, 2015)

PrestonCaldwell said:


> But if every point represents a fraction of ownership, and you get half-point deals at 60 days, doesn't that inflate the number of points in use vs the underlying deeds?
> 
> I don't, and didn't, think Wyndham oversells.  My thought, which I may have poorly expressed, was that in the case of those who _complain_ that Wyndham oversells (And I have read exactly those complaints), it may have been a case of the inflation I mentioned above.  I suppose that there would be plenty of points that have been expired, forfeited, or simply unused to account for the extra buying power of the half point deals.
> 
> I do appreciate the non-patronizing responses to my question.



Where are you reading about complaints regarding no availability in Club Wyndham? I've not heard that as a common complaint in this system, but it is a resounding complaint in the sister system, WorldMark, which is a completely different beast.

In Club Wyndham, there is no way to "beat the clock" or to squeeze out other owners. In WorldMark, there are some differences that do allow for anyone to get a "jump" on anyone else, so while WM is more flexible, one might say Club Wyndham is more equitable.

Even this discount you seem to be focused upon is more of a paper tiger in that it can only be used if there is excess/available inventory; it is in no way automatic. For high demand resorts/times the "manipulation" as you call it (cancel/rebook to others) has a worsening probability of success. Other lower demand resorts/times may be more apt to have discounts applied, but this is a good use of inventory that may otherwise go unused. If it was desired enough, owners in general would constantly be looking for availability which, in effect, squeezes out the VIP discounters (or at least deters them). 

In addition to your final sentence, there are owner points taken out of the system for cruises, airline tickets, hotel stays, etc., thus leaving available inventory somewhere in the system. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ty1on (Jun 12, 2015)

uscav8r said:


> Where are you reading about complaints regarding no availability in Club Wyndham? I've not heard that as a common complaint in this system, but it is a resounding complaint in the sister system, WorldMark, which is a completely different beast.
> 
> In Club Wyndham, there is no way to "beat the clock" or to squeeze out other owners. In WorldMark, there are some differences that do allow for anyone to get a "jump" on anyone else, so while WM is more flexible, one might say Club Wyndham is more equitable.
> 
> ...



So you cannot cancel/rebook to obtain the discount in a resort that is booked out or nearly booked out?

The comments I've read were mostly in Ripoff Report, I believe.  It is also entirely possible that I have bundled Wyndham and Worldmark in my mind.


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## uscav8r (Jun 12, 2015)

PrestonCaldwell said:


> So you cannot cancel/rebook to obtain the discount in a resort that is booked out or nearly booked out?
> 
> The comments I've read were mostly in Ripoff Report, I believe.  It is also entirely possible that I have bundled Wyndham and Worldmark in my mind.



Just because a resort is "nearly" booked out does not mean the unit type you want is available. If there is just one free unit of the type you want (which can be freed up via your own cancellation), then you can get the discount. But realize that this can only be done at 60 days to check in... That is almost like 11th hour planning in the TS world. Aside from the case of a cancel/rebook, this means the inventory has not been booked (and kept) during the previous 8-11 months.

I would not say it is absolutely impossible to cancel/rebook a fully booked resort, but it is more and more improbable. One can always make the attempt and risk losing the whole thing; a backup plan is always prudent in these cases.

Take what you read from RR with a grain of salt. TS is not like a lemon car, or other more straightforward issues. TS is a complicated product and no two systems are exactly the same. Most TS complaints are either due to misperceptions introduced by a developer sales team on initial purchase or inability to use the product. This latter complaint may be resolved probably 85-95% of the time by learning how to use the ownership and how to take advantage of its strengths while minimizing its weaknesses. That is why resources like TUG can be so valuable. Mindset on the part of the consumer, to be flexible and adapt to changing booking patterns, cannot be overstated as a contributing factor when it comes to happy ownership. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Cheryl20772 (Jun 12, 2015)

PrestonCaldwell said:


> So, in summary, because of a well-intentioned plan by Wyndham to reward their biggest investors and provide incentive to buy more, the vacation wishes of owners who paid good money for their points are being pre-empted by others to generate income for themselves.  Whether you want to apply the euphemism that it is just to cover your maintenance fees, the fact is that it's a profit-seeking operation, whether you rent out all the weeks you reserve or just enough to defray some of your costs.


Preston, I'm just a lowly SilverVIP owner. That just means we were willing to pay Wyndham over $50K to own 308K points and use the system for our vacations. 

As long as I realize that resort units are subject to great demand at many times during the year and plan ahead with reservations accordingly, there's no problem enjoying what we bought. 

It makes no difference to me if the other points in the system are owned and used by so-called mega-renters or other small owners like me. It also usually doesn't matter if the units are occupied by owners or renters. Owners might take better care of a unit than renters. I doubt that's been researched.

There are only so many points per resort in the system and they will be used by somebody and the fees will be paid the same.


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## Ty1on (Jun 12, 2015)

uscav8r said:


> Just because a resort is "nearly" booked out does not mean the unit type you want is available. If there is just one free unit of the type you want (which can be freed up via your own cancellation), then you can get the discount. But realize that this can only be done at 60 days to check in... That is almost like 11th hour planning in the TS world. Aside from the case of a cancel/rebook, this means the inventory has not been booked (and kept) during the previous 8-11 months.
> 
> I would not say it is absolutely impossible to cancel/rebook a fully booked resort, but it is more and more improbable. One can always make the attempt and risk losing the whole thing; a backup plan is always prudent in these cases.
> 
> ...



Thank you!  Your description of the complexity and the value of TUG is exactly why I'm asking stupid questions and learning everything possible before I tie myself up with an annual commitment.

The mindset of flexibility is an important issue.  I'm a very "roll with the punches" type person, but my wife freaks out at the smallest contingency, so I might find TS isn't in the cards for us at all.


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## Ron2 (Jun 12, 2015)

uscav8r said:


> Even this discount you seem to be focused upon is more of a paper tiger in that it can only be used if there is excess/available inventory; it is in no way automatic. For high demand resorts/times the "manipulation" as you call it (cancel/rebook to others) has a worsening probability of success. Other lower demand resorts/times may be more apt to have discounts applied, but this is a good use of inventory that may otherwise go unused. If it was desired enough, owners in general would constantly be looking for availability which, in effect, squeezes out the VIP discounters (or at least deters them).



Anyone who knows how cancel/rebook works, knows it’s not “excess/available inventory” that is booked through the cancel/rebook process. It’s actually available inventory that you create for yourself by canceling a reservation you already have (often a prime reservation) and rebook it at discount.  If it was excess inventory, you wouldn’t need to cancel anything – just book the reservation at the discount rate. What makes this process so unfair to the non-VIP small point owners is that it often ties up two units for the same reservation. The ultimate goal in cancel/rebook is not to just get the 25 to 50% discount; it’s to get the larger unit that you want at the discounted rate of a small unit by also applying the free upgrade to the small unit once you cancel the larger unit.  This practice ties up inventory that otherwise could be booked by others, especially the small point owners who only have enough points for the small units.


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## Cheryl20772 (Jun 12, 2015)

PrestonCaldwell said:


> So you cannot cancel/rebook to obtain the discount in a resort that is booked out or nearly booked out?
> 
> The comments I've read were mostly in Ripoff Report, I believe.  It is also entirely possible that I have bundled Wyndham and Worldmark in my mind.



You can always cancel, but if you try to rebook for a discount during a prime or high reservation time on the calendar, you will most likely just get your cancellation. 

Cancel-rebook is not a VIP benefit. It's used by Wyndham sales people to show how to game the system without mentioning how the reservation can be lost. It's used by them to try to get a $50K+ sale. Can you blame people who spent that kind of money for trying to use it?

Cancel-rebook takes advantage of the VIP benefit of discounted points needed for any left-over units at short notice. As someone also pointed out, all of the owned points are never used for occupying units each year. They can be pooled to use another year, converted to RCI for exchanges, used with Plus Partners, or, if not used, they expire. Before I started using the credit pool I always had like 5-10K points leftover to expire and wondered how many expired total in the system each year.

Bear in mind that some of the people who may complain here or at places like Ripoff Report, might not understand how to use their points. They also might not have paid attention to the fact that there are no verbal agreements and only what is in their signed contract is what they purchased. The sales people are famous for making all kinds of promises in order to get that sale.


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## Ty1on (Jun 12, 2015)

Cheryl20772 said:


> You can always cancel, but if you try to rebook for a discount during a prime or high reservation time on the calendar, you will most likely just get your cancellation.
> 
> Cancel-rebook is not a VIP benefit. It's used by Wyndham sales people to show how to game the system without mentioning how the reservation can be lost. It's used by them to try to get a $50K+ sale. Can you blame people who spent that kind of money for trying to use it?
> 
> ...



I would never blame anyone for using anything at their disposal.  Even if the salesmen WEREN'T using it as a sales crutch, and it were universally taboo, it would be the job of Wyndham to close the loophole, not of the owners to pretend it doesn't exist.  I was just trying to understand the practice from multiple perspectives, and I misinterpreted that the practice significantly cost availability to others.  Thanks all for your responses.


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## uscav8r (Jun 12, 2015)

Ron2 said:


> Anyone who knows how cancel/rebook works, knows it’s not “excess/available inventory” that is booked through the cancel/rebook process. It’s actually available inventory that you create for yourself by canceling a reservation you already have (often a prime reservation) and rebook it at discount.


Yes, I said this in a follow-on post: "If there is just one free unit of the type you want (*which can be freed  up via your own cancellation*), then you can get the discount." The statement in my original post specifically mentioned the discount (in general) that PrestonCaldwell seemed to think was leading to "overselling" of points. You may want to read my original post again.



Ron2 said:


> If it was excess inventory, you wouldn’t need to cancel anything – just book the reservation at the discount rate.


I also mentioned in a later post: "*Aside from the case of a cancel/rebook*, [booking at a discount] means the inventory *has not been booked* (and kept) during the previous 8-11 months."



Ron2 said:


> What makes this process so unfair to the non-VIP small point owners is that it often ties up two units for the same reservation. The ultimate goal in cancel/rebook is not to just get the 25 to 50% discount; it’s to get the larger unit that you want at the discounted rate of a small unit by also applying the free upgrade to the small unit once you cancel the larger unit.  This practice ties up inventory that otherwise could be booked by others, especially the small point owners who only have enough points for the small units.


This may be a valid concern, but it still does not address PrestonCaldwell's earlier comment that Wyndham is supposedly selling more UDI points than it has in physical inventory (keeping in mind the source of this assertion was Ripoff Report).

By your assertion, there should be a bunch of newly available smaller units within 60 days. The savvy small points owner would be scouring the website for opened units inside this window. I'm not saying this is an easy thing to do... it requires being online almost constantly. 

However, remember the first rule of Wyndham booking: book early at 7 a.m. EST on the first day of the 10-month window (or call in for ARP). A small owner can get his or her own booking before a large point owner has booked two different-sized units as these things need to be done sequentially and the large points owner will likely book the larger unit (usually a smaller inventory pool) first.


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## ronparise (Jun 13, 2015)

PrestonCaldwell said:


> Thank you!  Your description of the complexity and the value of TUG is exactly why I'm asking stupid questions and learning everything possible before I tie myself up with an annual commitment.
> 
> The mindset of flexibility is an important issue.  I'm a very "roll with the punches" type person, but my wife freaks out at the smallest contingency, so I might find TS isn't in the cards for us at all.



The tried and true advice is, if you want guarantees, buy a fixed week. If you want flexibility buy points.


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## travelwyndham (Jun 13, 2015)

*Happy Owners Again*

Wyndham Corporate has been in touch with me and seems to be making an incredible effort to right any wrongs. It just took 1-2 phone calls from various people to finally alleviate most of my stress and problems that we've been having. I don't know if it was because of my talk with certain influential people at the sales center or if was because of my postings. Whatever it was, our family is back to being happy Wyndham owners who are navigating the system well enough to be on a very very long world trip from all over the US to Hawaii to Europe using our points and RCI exchanges. We feel that it has been our privilege to be able to share the joy with others through our rentals and also have money to help us pay our maintenance fees in doing so. I feel bad that it came to me having to voice all my complaints and problems here, but if that ultimately helped us find our way- all I can be is elated going forward. 

I think that if you can navigate the system and you know what your doing, then Wyndham is a great product. I exchanged many of my points to go to Disney properties, Fiji, New Zealand and more. The value for the Wyndham points seems to be high as I cannot get some of these same exchanges through my other RCI points based account. We've been owners since the Fairfield days and in all that time of travel we've only had 2 run-ins with any of the resort staff (both were front desk supervisors unfortunately). However, everyone else has been incredibly nice and professional and for the most part, the resorts are hard to beat. 

I sincerely appreciate all the support and feedback. Hopefully, I'll have only wonderful things to say moving forward. Meanwhile, we are currently in Kauai, 1 week into our month long stay. Last month was Beach Walk and next month is Kona. We will be in Maui for most of August and September before making our way to Fiji, Australia and New Zealand. We have had a reservation at a Wyndham resort every night since September 2011. If anyone has any questions about using the product or any ideas on what we MUST do while we are in a particular area, please let me know.

Thank you, Christine


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## Bigrob (Jun 14, 2015)

travelwyndham said:


> Wyndham Corporate has been in touch with me and seems to be making an incredible effort to right any wrongs. It just took 1-2 phone calls from various people to finally alleviate most of my stress and problems that we've been having. I don't know if it was because of my talk with certain influential people at the sales center or if was because of my postings. Whatever it was, our family is back to being happy Wyndham owners who are navigating the system well enough to be on a very very long world trip from all over the US to Hawaii to Europe using our points and RCI exchanges. We feel that it has been our privilege to be able to share the joy with others through our rentals and also have money to help us pay our maintenance fees in doing so. I feel bad that it came to me having to voice all my complaints and problems here, but if that ultimately helped us find our way- all I can be is elated going forward.
> 
> I think that if you can navigate the system and you know what your doing, then Wyndham is a great product. I exchanged many of my points to go to Disney properties, Fiji, New Zealand and more. The value for the Wyndham points seems to be high as I cannot get some of these same exchanges through my other RCI points based account. We've been owners since the Fairfield days and in all that time of travel we've only had 2 run-ins with any of the resort staff (both were front desk supervisors unfortunately). However, everyone else has been incredibly nice and professional and for the most part, the resorts are hard to beat.
> 
> ...



I am glad to hear of a happy conclusion to this for you. 

If you don't mind me asking, what did they end up doing to take care of the issues you experienced? Did they reinstate your father's name on the account? What happened with the reservations you had that were cancelled? Etc.

Glad to hear you're happy owners again.


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## travelwyndham (Jun 15, 2015)

It's a bit of a long story... We ended up purchasing the PR in hopes of getting things straightened out (getting back in good graces or whatever) only to have the VP of guest relations call us and offer us an out because she thought we were purchasing for the wrong reason (interesting). We had a long discussion and she assured me that they were working hard to resolve the issues and they didn't see many upset owners making additional purchases. They wanted to be sure we were happy. 

Meanwhile, they said that 19 reservations were affected at the Emerald Grand and that they, in fact, were going to honor them all (they just didn't know how at that point- but they promised that the guests would be staying at Emerald Grand). Also, I had some new contracts that hadn't been added to the account, yet that we purchased with my father, mother, and aunt. Those contracts were finally added to our account and in doing so, my father's name is back on a a co-owner. They did give us back the points for our Waikiki Beach Walk (not what I wanted, I wanted the room) but at least it was something. 

I don't know if this is all related to the purchase (I sure hope not) because we did end up canceling with Wyndham's blessing. We might purchase in the future because I really like the PR, but under different, non-emotional circumstances. We have been so "messed around with" that I feel great trepidation in canceling. I don't want to go back to having all those troubles. Wyndham guest services insists that everything will be good from now on. We'll see. 

Thank you for the reply. I have been following this site (without comments) for a long time and I almost messaged you personally when this started because you seem so knowledgable. I feel fairly new to everything and have so much on my plate right now. I just need my vacations to at least be as stress and hassle free as possible. The last 3 months have been just awful. Anyway, Thank you again. I'll post any updates- Good or Bad. Christine


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