# UDI points



## rickul (Apr 5, 2006)

Could someone please explain what UDI points are?  I tried the search function and it didn't work. Thanks


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## Conan (Apr 5, 2006)

They're the points you get when you buy a Fairfield timeshare week, either directly from Fairfield or (most of the time but not absolutely always) by resale.

You use those points to book a week's stay in a Fairfield resort, or you can apply them into the RCI Weeks system as explained here.


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## Spence (Apr 5, 2006)

rklein001 said:
			
		

> They're the points you get when you buy a Fairfield timeshare week, either directly from Fairfield or (most of the time but not absolutely always) by resale.You use those points to book a week's stay in a Fairfield resort, or you can apply them into the RCI Weeks system as explained here.


Maybe rklein knows how to read between the lines, I didn't see Fairfield mentioned in the OP.  Other points systems have UDI - UnDivided Interests, Sunterra is one.  It's a different way of dividing up a resort as compared to the traditional weeks scheme.  In the Sunterra UDIs you own a certain percentage of normally a group of units and that is the basis for the assignment of a certain amount of points to be used in their points system.


			
				rickul said:
			
		

> Could someone please explain what UDI points are? I tried the search function and it didn't work. Thanks


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## brucecz (Apr 5, 2006)

Or they could be RCI Points generated from the RCI Weeks  Deposited for RCI points program generated from   Christmas  Mountain Village UDI Cottages and Timbers at Christmas Mountain UDI Oak Timbers ownerships.

Bruce


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## AwayWeGo (Apr 5, 2006)

*UDI Might Not Always Match Up With Weeks.*

From some eBay auctions I've seen for UDI points at a resort where I own a straight week, I am forming the idea that the UDI might be a good fit with the proprietary points scheme that the initial owner bought into, but won't always work out even for reserving a week at the resort for people who don't belong to the proprietary points system (e.g., Club SunTerra). 

With those eBay auctions that I saw, the seller included a chart showing the points required for midweek, weekend, & full-week reservations at the resort during regular, prime, & holiday seasons. 

The number of UDI points offered didn't fit exactly with anything on the chart, so I couldn't figure out how it would work in actually trying to use those UDI points without folding them back into the proprietary points system -- for an extra cost, no doubt. 

Then again, I am not the sharpest knife in the dishwasher. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.


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## Conan (Apr 6, 2006)

Spence said:
			
		

> Maybe rklein knows how to read between the lines, I didn't see Fairfield mentioned in the OP.


I assumed UDI meant Fairfield because all the links in my Google Search were to Fairfield items.


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## JoeMid (Apr 6, 2006)

Unfortunately, Google is not the end all - be all when it comes to anything.


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## PA- (Apr 6, 2006)

rickul said:
			
		

> Could someone please explain what UDI points are?  I tried the search function and it didn't work. Thanks



I'll take a shot at an explanation.  I'm not a real estate attorney, so take it for what it's worth.

UDI = Undivided Interest.

Any ownership of any property is considered an Interest in that property.  

I believe the Undivided Interest refers to the fact that the interest can't be divided.  In other words, you can't sell any percentage of the ownership less than 100% of the ownership to someone else.  So if you buy a UDI, you can only convey 100% of that UDI to someone else.

By that definition, ALL timeshare ownerships that I'm familiar with, whether weeks, points, etc., are UDIs.  It's just that some companies call them UDIs, most don't.  

I know that Worldmark allows you to divide your points, but Worldmark isn't a deeded timeshare and thus isn't a UDI.  I also am aware of some owners of Fractional estates (multi-week timeshares) "selling" 1/2 their weeks.  However, in those cases, they aren't really selling 1/2 the interest, they are merely putting another owner on the deed, then working out a usage agreement with the other party.  In fact, both the old owner and the new owner are still joint owners of 100% of the interest, not full owners of 50% interest.

So let's take an example:  Let's say I buy 400,000 UDI points at Fairfield Resorts.  I now own 100% of that UDI ownership.  Let's say the maintenance fees get to be a burden, and I want to sell 1/2 and keep 1/2.  Can't do that.  However, I can work out a deal to allow someone else to use 1/2 and pay 1/2 the fees.  In return, I agree to record a new deed from myself, to myself and the new owner.  So now we are joint owners of the interest.

So, bottom line, it's just a name that some companies use and others don't.  That's my understanding.  I sincerely hope that this post isn't as difficult to follow is it appears to me.


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## timeos2 (Apr 6, 2006)

*UDI is a sellers dream - owners possible nightmare*

PA - Your basic idea is correct, I think, but a key difference is that the UDI purchase may or may not translate into a value equal to a unit at the resort the deed or UDI is based on.  For example at Cypress Pointe Grande Villas - Phase 2 - the documents were written to include a UDI, deeded and points based variations on sales models.  

If you purchased a deeded week you were sold a 1, 2 or 3 bedroom unit - it was a physical unit type in the resort to use every year or every other year and your annual fee was based on that purchase. 

If you bought into what they then called points (later evolved into the Club Sunterra system) you got a deed for XXX points each use year that translated into a specific level of unit - 1, 2 or 3 bedroom. In any case you would have purchased enough points to equal one of those physical configurations for a use week at the resort. 

Then came the UDI.  This one wasn't based on a unit type but on the number of crdits (points, options - whatever they chose to call them).  You could buy as few as 1000 or millions if you wished.  But there was no direct correlation  between what you bought and a usable unit/time period at the resort.   In fact I have been offered, for free, a 1000 points - UDI based - at that resort. When I tried to find out what that represented outside of the Club Sunterra system (it would have cost $2900 to bring those points back into the Club - not a good deal for free points!) they told me they were only good at CPGV and that 1000 points equalled a 1.5 day (approx) stay in a studio unit!  Now what value is that?  Someone had paid over $7000 to get those 1000 UDI based points as an "add on" to their ownership at another Club resort. The annual fee alone was over 1/2 of my full, 3BR deeded week at the resort next door worth 8500 club points. It was a losing deal no matter how I looked at it. And I was left feeling those original buyers were sold a basically worthless product.

So bottom line is that while UDI can mean a base in deeded property it may or may not represent an actual usable ownership.  I have always purchased deeded weeks even when the ultimate goal was to use them as points. After that little exercise I would never buy a UDI as I just couldn't be sure what it was I was actually getting.


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## PA- (Apr 6, 2006)

timeos2 said:
			
		

> PA - Your basic idea is correct, I think, but a key difference is that the UDI purchase may or may not translate into a value equal to a unit at the resort the deed or UDI is based on.
> 
> *If I inferred that a UDI purchase = a specific week or unit, it was not intentional.*
> 
> ...




Bottom line, it's important to analyse the timeshares on their merits, not on what the marketing dept. decided to call them.  Agreed?


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 6, 2006)

My understanding is similar to PAs.  

An Undivided Interest means that the property described as the UDI may not divided any further than described in the deed.

For instance, let's use a single family home as an example. That home is described in the deed.  Let's say two couples own the home as tenants in common and each owns 50%.  Each couple has an undivided interested in the WHOLE house described in the deed.  In other words, 50% ownership means 50% ownership of the entire house.  This is to ensure that one couple doesn't claim that the 50% they own is the half of the lot that includes the house and the lake front while they other less desirable half is the other couple's ownership.

To create points, developers will take many units in a resort like week 23 unit 3, week 15 unit 12, week 52 unit 5, and include them all in the description on a deed.  And then, owners will own a percentage of those 3 deeds as something like 15,000 of 300,000 of the undivided interested in all 3 intervals.

So, undivided interest simply means that the property described cannot be further subdivided for ownership purposes.  Tenants in common can only own a percentage of the whole.


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## AwayWeGo (Apr 6, 2006)

*Ha!  Suspicions Confirmed.*



			
				timeos2 said:
			
		

> So bottom line is that while UDI can mean a base in deeded property it may or may not represent an actual usable ownership.


Whoa!  That makes me extra glad I didn't bid on any of those eBay "bargains" that turned out to be potentially unusable UDI. 

I suppose the worst of all possible timeshare worlds would be EEY-RTU-UDI -- with a high annual fee.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.


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## Spence (Apr 6, 2006)

Just as John has been offered low point value Sunterra UDIs, so have I, as low as 500 points which was a couple days in a studio off season.  Wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole, MFs were out of sight.



> To create points, developers will take many units in a resort like week 23 unit 3, week 15 unit 12, week 52 unit 5, and include them all in the description on a deed. And then, owners will own a percentage of those 3 deeds as something like 15,000 of 300,000 of the undivided interested in all 3 intervals.


BB's description of how these interests are deeded is about right.  They can be a great value for those who know what they're getting into, but you need to know your stuff, and that's hard to do with a Sunterra moving target.

I bought a 30,000 point UDI at CPGV for $3500 (retails for $50K or more), when I asked CPGV what I would have if I didn't get it back into Club Sunterra, they said I could use the points at CPGV only using the same points chart as the Club.

I bought a 22,000 point UDI at Grand Beach for $2000 (retails for ~$40K) never called them about the what if's.

I've looked at UDIs at Greensprings Plantation and called the Reservations to ask them how they handle the reservations for these if they're not in the Club and got silence, then WHAT???, they sent me to a knowledgeable person in Maintenance Fee Dept who said that you've got nothing unless you pay to put it back in the Club!

I recently brokered a deal for another TUGger for a 30,000 UDI at Villa Mirage for $5000 (retails for $50K+) and the answer from the Asst manager was very wishy washy but they said if not paid back into the Club they could be used at the resort only.  Funny thing was, the other party asked the same Asst Manager the same question (maybe not as pointed or specific) and got a different answer within a five minute timespan!

That is why these things can go for so cheap on eBay or elsewhere, because it's hard to know what you've got.  All mine are safely back in Club Sunterra and are working great for me.

Do you think that *rickul* is ever going to come back and post about what his real question was?  I do expect it was about Fairfield, but who knows?  We've had quite a discussion anyway.


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## timeos2 (Apr 6, 2006)

*There is a difference*



			
				PA- said:
			
		

> Bottom line, it's important to analyse the timeshares on their merits, not on what the marketing dept. decided to call them.  Agreed?


Agreed. But I still hold a comfort level - not totally based in reality - that by holding the underlying deeded week I have a slight protection over what is deeded as a UDI.  I'm still vulnerable to the other 51 weeks failing to pay or the whole building burning down or otherwise being destroyed or even the whole resort going under. But if none of those things occurred while the club/system that issued the points disappeared I'd have my week to fall back on. In a true UDI as used by Disney (which adds RTU to the mix) or the other club systems you are simply getting a RTU into the system with no base deeded property. Fine while things are going great but, especially given the history of vacation clubs and timeshares, too risky to depend on for the long term for me. If there wasn't some legal difference between a deeded week and a UDI then the resort documents wouldn't require that the tyoe of ownership be spelled out so clearly.  Somehow I think that UDI favors the developer while deeded gives just a bit of an edge to the buyer but I could be wrong. Meanwhile deeded works just fine for me even with my points obsession.


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## PA- (Apr 6, 2006)

timeos2 said:
			
		

> Agreed. But I still hold a comfort level - not totally based in reality - that by holding the underlying deeded week I have a slight protection over what is deeded as a UDI.  I'm still vulnerable to the other 51 weeks failing to pay or the whole building burning down or otherwise being destroyed or even the whole resort going under. But if none of those things occurred while the club/system that issued the points disappeared I'd have my week to fall back on. In a true UDI as used by Disney (which adds RTU to the mix) or the other club systems you are simply getting a RTU into the system with no base deeded property. Fine while things are going great but, especially given the history of vacation clubs and timeshares, too risky to depend on for the long term for me. If there wasn't some legal difference between a deeded week and a UDI then the resort documents wouldn't require that the tyoe of ownership be spelled out so clearly.  Somehow I think that UDI favors the developer while deeded gives just a bit of an edge to the buyer but I could be wrong. Meanwhile deeded works just fine for me even with my points obsession.



I believe all the risks of a deeded week or exactly the same as a deeded UDI ownership.  I can't think of any exceptions.  Even if Sunterra or Fairfield folded tomorrow, you would still own your share of the property.  If it were sold, or if it were taken over by a different management company, you'd still own the same percentage of the proceeds or the same rights to usage.  

Your experience with Sunterra would probably sour anybody on the concept.  But it wasn't the fact that it was a UDI that made it a bad deal, it was the way Sunterra implemented it.  Other company's version is completely different.

Anyway, I don't intend to try to convince you to be comfortable with that marketing label.  Just understand, a fixed week fixed unit ownership is still a UDI.  You can't divide it and sell parts of it to different owners.  So, whether you like the name UDI or not, you already are a UDI owner.


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 6, 2006)

PA- said:
			
		

> I believe all the risks of a deeded week or exactly the same as a deeded UDI ownership.  I can't think of any exceptions.  Even if Sunterra or Fairfield folded tomorrow, you would still own your share of the property.  If it were sold, or if it were taken over by a different management company, you'd still own the same percentage of the proceeds or the same rights to usage.
> 
> Your experience with Sunterra would probably sour anybody on the concept.  But it wasn't the fact that it was a UDI that made it a bad deal, it was the way Sunterra implemented it.  Other company's version is completely different.
> 
> Anyway, I don't intend to try to convince you to be comfortable with that marketing label.  Just understand, a fixed week fixed unit ownership is still a UDI.  You can't divide it and sell parts of it to different owners.  So, whether you like the name UDI or not, you already are a UDI owner.



There is one downside and it isn't that big a deal.  In a UDI situation, you share ownership rights with several owners for the undivided interest.  So, it could be a small issue getting a reservation if 2 or more owners want access simultaneously for the week in question.  The same is true of floating weeks or tenants in common for any described property.  You really aren't guaranteed usage like you are in a fixed week deed.

In general, I think too much has been made of having a deeded week.  It's similar to tying a national currency to an asset like Gold.  It makes you feel safer in the early days.  As the central bank (or reservation system for timeshares) becomes widely trusted, then it becomes less necessary and even an administrative nightmare.


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## Giselherr (Apr 6, 2006)

There is a post in the Yahoo Fairfield_timeshare group that also discusses UDI -- it's still kinda cloudy.  But in general I am getting the impression that in some respects a UDI designation is another way to induce a reluctant buyer to buy.  What I really don't understand is that there is at least one poster on these boards, who apparently very, very highly values his UDI ownerships, but from this discussion it sounds like UDI isn't always a good deal & may, in fact, always be a bad deal depending on your own particular personality.


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## PA- (Apr 6, 2006)

Giselherr said:
			
		

> ...., but from this discussion it sounds like UDI isn't always a good deal & may, in fact, always be a bad deal depending on your own particular personality.



That observation applies to every singe product ever sold.  Sometimes, depending on the person doing the buying, the same product can be bad or good.


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## Jya-Ning (Apr 6, 2006)

Giselherr said:
			
		

> from this discussion it sounds like UDI isn't always a good deal & may, in fact, always be a bad deal depending on your own particular personality.



TS today is much better than before.  But just do a simple search, you will see that there are a lot of complaint about a unit oversold as recent as maybe 10 years ago.   And when a developer belly up, if you don't have a deed back up your contract, you will not have anything.  Just look around this board, I believe a Canadian Resort went to foreclosure recently.   So you will think the only guarantee is a fixed week, fixed unit.

UDI and float week are hard to monitor if you have a county office that don't care about it.  If they care, UDI is much eaier to track then floating week.

FF used to throw in some small point package, don't know if it is really backed by deed or not.  Now I have not hear it on new resorts.  All the UDI deeds I got has specific defined what it is, and registed in the US county office.  Unless they could not do their work, it is the same as I bought a fixed week.

FF UDI deed is on whole year.  Don't quite sure other UDI deed.  

From the usuage point of view, FF UDI is much better than fixed week.  If you want go to July 4th, week 27 only cover half of the time, week 26 cover the other half.  While buy a UDI, and you only need to remember to fight over the reservation time table on 13 month.  I probably only will need to use July 4 once in any place (probably in all places in my life time), so to pay big to buy a week that only good half of the time does not make sense at all.

Also, from MF, FF UDI is all cost divided by the total number of points.  Fix week is pre-set, and if all equal, more room, red time will always enjoy the better benefit.   If you buy retail, you pre-pay way too much for that benefit.  However, a lot of less unit owner will default.  Look at eBay, even with $1, none will want to take over.  So, even if you think you own the right to enjoy it, you end up need to pay more because you don't really share the benefit.  So operation wise, FF UDI can have better chance to survive.

Jya-Ning


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## geekette (Apr 6, 2006)

Giselherr said:
			
		

> There is a post in the Yahoo Fairfield_timeshare group that also discusses UDI -- it's still kinda cloudy.  But in general I am getting the impression that in some respects a UDI designation is another way to induce a reluctant buyer to buy.  What I really don't understand is that there is at least one poster on these boards, who apparently very, very highly values his UDI ownerships, but from this discussion it sounds like UDI isn't always a good deal & may, in fact, always be a bad deal depending on your own particular personality.



Bottom line is to make absolutely sure of what you are buying.  UDIs vary, GREATLY.


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## Spence (Apr 6, 2006)

Jya-Ning said:
			
		

> From the usuage point of view, FF UDI is much better than fixed week.  If you want go to July 4th, week 27 only cover half of the time, week 26 cover the other half.  While buy a UDI, and you only need to remember to fight over the reservation time table on 13 month.  I probably only will need to use July 4 once in any place (probably in all places in my life time), so to pay big to buy a week that only good half of the time does not make sense at all.


J-N you are missing part of the equation...  FF UDI is not the only way to have points in FF.  You can have a fixed week that is also the basis for points and gives you the same flexibility you are attributing only to the UDI.


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## Spence (Apr 6, 2006)

Giselherr said:
			
		

> What I really don't understand is that there is at least one poster on these boards, who apparently very, very highly values his UDI ownerships, but from this discussion it sounds like UDI isn't always a good deal & may, in fact, always be a bad deal depending on your own particular personality.


  I don't know who you're being so vague about.

There are people that are very high on a product that is called UDI.  That is a UDI at Bluegreen's Christmas Mountain Village in Wisconsin and Shenandoah crossings in Virginia.  These ownerships are not what is being discussed with respect to FF and Sunterra, these ownerships allow you to have multiple and numerous reservations at any one time and a new reservation as soon as you check-in for one on the books.  They allow one Red week (or portion thereof) and two other weeks (White and/or Blue) and one additional week any color booked within a 45 day window.  You can make many, many reservations with these and rent them or turn them into PFD.  you can also cancel them last minute!  A very neat program if you learn how to work it.

If you're talking about me and Sunterra, the UDIs are just a way to base point packages, the large ones are great, the small ones that were sold usually as a cost of putting some other unit into points are utterly worthless.


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## Robnsunny (Apr 6, 2006)

Spence said:
			
		

> J-N you are missing part of the equation...  FF UDI is not the only way to have points in FF.  You can have a fixed week that is also the basis for points and gives you the same flexibility you are attributing only to the UDI.



Converted fixed weeks are missing one piece of the flexibility. Owners can only reserve the base week at 13-10 months (ARP). UDI points can reserve any week at their home resort during the ARP period. Owning a fixed week vs UDI points gives you no real difference in security. Both are deeded.

It's more a matter of which you prefer. It makes no difference to many people.


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## Jya-Ning (Apr 6, 2006)

Spence said:
			
		

> You can have a fixed week that is also the basis for points and gives you the same flexibility you are attributing only to the UDI.



Spence:

In 10 month reservation period, FF points based on converted fix week is as good as UDI.  However, if you ever do 13 month reservation, you can only get that fix week while UDI can allow you to get all the week.   Just a very small difference.    

Jya-Ning


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 6, 2006)

Jya-Ning said:
			
		

> Spence:
> 
> In 10 month reservation period, FF points based on converted fix week is as good as UDI.  However, if you ever do 13 month reservation, you can only get that fix week while UDI can allow you to get all the week.   Just a very small difference.
> 
> Jya-Ning



The problem with UDI ownerships is that since there is competition for various weeks, a slow owner can claim that they were shut out of getting a week at their home resort.  This is the basis for the Fairfield class action law suit.  I wonder if that case is still progressing. I've lost touch with it.

If you have a deeded week, you can never claim that you didn't have access to it.  If you didn't book your week in time, it's only because you didn't reserve it in time.


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## Giselherr (Apr 6, 2006)

*I wasn't being intentionally vague.*



			
				Spence said:
			
		

> I don't know who you're being so vague about.
> 
> There are people that are very high on a product that is called UDI.  That is a UDI at Bluegreen's Christmas Mountain Village in Wisconsin and Shenandoah crossings in Virginia.  These ownerships are not what is being discussed with respect to FF and Sunterra, these ownerships allow you to have multiple and numerous reservations at any one time and a new reservation as soon as you check-in for one on the books.  They allow one Red week (or portion thereof) and two other weeks (White and/or Blue) and one additional week any color booked within a 45 day window.  You can make many, many reservations with these and rent them or turn them into PFD.  you can also cancel them last minute!  A very neat program if you learn how to work it.
> 
> If you're talking about me and Sunterra, the UDIs are just a way to base point packages, the large ones are great, the small ones that were sold usually as a cost of putting some other unit into points are utterly worthless.



I just saw a thread that mentioned UDI ownerships in a very favorable vein, but I couldn't remember who it was (although I do know it wasn't you).  I was still trying to figure the whole thing out (spent a couple hours reading the Yahoo FF group) when this thread started up.  
You explanation of that particular program sounds kinda familiar, that may be what I had seen.


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## Jya-Ning (Apr 6, 2006)

Jya-Ning said:
			
		

> UDI and float week are hard to monitor if you have a county office that don't care about it.  If they care, UDI is much eaier to track then floating week.



Come to think of it, I have no idea how local government can make sure it is not oversold.  a 500 unit will possible have over 25,000 deeds.  Maybe someone can share the light.

Thanks

Jya-Ning


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## CaliDave (Apr 6, 2006)

This ebay ad appears to be one of those worthless UDI's


click here  EBAY


Is this also 2500 Sunterra Points? Will the buyer have to spend $3K joining Sunterra?


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## timeos2 (Apr 6, 2006)

*Looks like one*

It would appear to be. The points won't be "repatriated"  into Club without the fee (last I head it was $2900) - and the three days worth of use, if you can even reserve that, would be only at the resort the UDI points are based. Even if they paid the $2900 by themselves 2500 points doesn't get anything in Club either.   I would have to say another worthless "ownership".


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## Robnsunny (Apr 6, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> The problem with UDI ownerships is that since there is competition for various weeks, a slow owner can claim that they were shut out of getting a week at their home resort.  This is the basis for the Fairfield class action law suit.  I wonder if that case is still progressing. I've lost touch with it.
> 
> If you have a deeded week, you can never claim that you didn't have access to it.  If you didn't book your week in time, it's only because you didn't reserve it in time.



The points availability is really no different than a floating week. I personally think the suit was baseless as I've seen availability at those resorts at peak demand for a week into the 13 month period. You don't have to call at 8:00 AM to get a unit. The window is short, but it's measured in days, not minutes.

I think the people who are suing just never learned how to make a reservation.


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## Jya-Ning (Apr 6, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> The problem with UDI ownerships is that since there is competition for various weeks, a slow owner can claim that they were shut out of getting a week at their home resort.



Yeah, UDI plus the trust also in theory owns part of it plus the member can use points to do other things thus the trust has to rent out the units to get real money make tracking reservation inventory almost impossible.  FF as developer will never win unless they do a good bookkeeping here.

Jya-Ning


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## brucecz (Apr 7, 2006)

I am going to assume that you were not trying to bait me.



Check Spences pior post on this string about CMV UDI's that may help to enlighten you quite a bit.

Bruce  



			
				Giselherr said:
			
		

> What I really don't understand is that there is at least one poster on these boards, who apparently very, very highly values his UDI ownerships, but from this discussion it sounds like UDI isn't always a good deal & may, in fact, always be a bad deal depending on your own particular personality.



_I'm stepping in here to avoid any further derogatory remarks.  The OP has already indicated he knows nothing.   Please leave it at that unless you have something constructive to add. _ 
Ouaifer
Moderator, Points


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## Giselherr (Apr 7, 2006)

[_Edited to delete post that referred to another poster in a manner that is not in keeping with TUG BBS posting rules. You may disagree with *content* of another post, but you may not make comments that reflect on another poster's character or otherwise refer to the individual in a less than complimentary way._ Dave M, BBS Administrator]


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## Dave M (Apr 7, 2006)

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