# II Implemented a Points System?



## LLW (Jul 18, 2007)

Starting tonight, for searches using the Worldmark Float week, I am seeing points listed next to each of the weeks pulled: 0.75 points, 1 point, 1.42 points, 2 points, 2.42 points, etc. Are owners of other point systems seeing that also, or should I be posting in the Wyndham forum below? 

Searches using deposited weeks had no change in the listing of weeks pulled and do not have points listed for those weeks.


----------



## KforKitty (Jul 18, 2007)

As a Sunterra points member I have seen points for several years now when I do an II search.  However ours are in the thousands (eg 5500, 6500 etc).

Kitty


----------



## LLW (Jul 18, 2007)

KforKitty said:


> As a Sunterra points member I have seen points for several years now when I do an II search.  However ours are in the thousands (eg 5500, 6500 etc).
> 
> Kitty



Are those the same number of points that Sunterra charges you? Is this just on Request First, or do you deposit points too?


----------



## PA- (Jul 18, 2007)

I just did a worldmark search and see no points mentioned.  Can you copy a screen shot?


----------



## rhonda (Jul 18, 2007)

*Screen Shot ...*


----------



## rhonda (Jul 18, 2007)

I also noted that my search didn't ask me to choose a unit size.  Usually I'm asked to pick the unit size from a drop down box before seeing the search results.


----------



## SuzanneSLO (Jul 18, 2007)

The points posted also seem to make no sense:  1 point for a studio or 2 BR but only 0.75 points for a 1 BR.  You may need to call II and get the 411. _- Suzanne


----------



## PerryM (Jul 18, 2007)

*Something is wrong... or right...*

I called II on Sunday and reported the missing selection "3 BR, 2 BR, 1 BR, Studio" - it was missing and I could not get ANY thing to match ANY search.

Just a minute ago I did the same search from Sunday and I do get matches - still no selection for the size of WM put up.

Did II just decide to put in the 3 BR unit?  I'm assuming so or it's just a typical II programming screw up.

If I go further I do get the Point structure of 2 pts, 1.42 pts and I believe you are seeing the Trading Power of a unit - a major major screw up by II.

So what else is new?

P.S.

If I were you guys, since I'm going to do this myself, I'm going to note the Trading Power of many units out there.

P.P.S.

****** II Trading Power Defined *******

Red Season:  (Highest demand)
Studio=1 Point
1BR=1.42 Points
2BR=2 Points
3BR=2.42 Points
4BR=2.42 Points (?)

Yellow Season  (Medium demand)
Studio=.75 Points
1BR=1 Points
2BR=1.42 Points
3BR=2 Points

Green Season:  (Lowest demand)
Studio=.5 Points
1BR=.75 Points
2BR= 1 Points
3BR=1.42 Points
4BR=2 Points*

Copyright (C) Perry Myklebost, permission is given to TUG to reprint.


Is this all Trading Power is?  What the heck is 1.42 a fraction of?  The square root of 2?

Is this what all the secrecy is all about?  I'm guessing that the Red, Yellow, and Green are different than published by II, but I'll investigate further.

I don't know about you but this has been a red letter day for me.  (Well red, yellow, and green)

And I want to pay a special thanks to the programmers at II - well done!

P.S.
After July 20, 2007 this post is "frozen" - I can't keep it updated.  If new figures appear I'll start a new thread.


----------



## LLW (Jul 18, 2007)

rhonda said:


> I also noted that my search didn't ask me to choose a unit size.  Usually I'm asked to pick the unit size from a drop down box before seeing the search results.




.........As a result the Relinquishment Information just lists Worldmark the Club, or Worldmark the Club - 2007 (Points) instead of the previous size and season info.


----------



## LLW (Jul 18, 2007)

PerryM said:


> I called II on Sunday and reported the missing selection "3 BR, 2 BR, 1 BR, Studio" - it was missing and I could not get ANY thing to match ANY search.
> 
> Just a minute ago I did the same search from Sunday and I do get matches - still no selection for the size of WM put up.
> 
> ...



They listened to your complaint about the insanity of us using a 3BR to pull a 1BR and getting charged only for the 1BR! 

This is giving us a window into the trade power of weeks out there, just like RCI's and Redweek's point systems. My question is: what points are WM owners going to get charged? Size and Season (as we are now), or somehow related to the points listed by II?


----------



## gmarine (Jul 18, 2007)

No changes using Worldmark to search on my II account. Still the same as it has been.


----------



## LLW (Jul 18, 2007)

gmarine said:


> No changes using Worldmark to search on my II account. Still the same as it has been.



I am still seeing (on the Float week) no size asked, and points listed on the weeks pulled.


----------



## PerryM (Jul 18, 2007)

LLW said:


> They listened to your complaint about the insanity of us using a 3BR to pull a 1BR and getting charged only for the 1BR!
> 
> This is giving us a window into the trade power of weeks out there, just like RCI's and Redweek's point systems. My question is: what points are WM owners going to get charged? Size and Season (as we are now), or somehow related to the points listed by II?



The arrangement between II and WorldMark is a written contract - I've not disclosed anything confidential that either side didn't already agree to.

I think this colossal screw up by II is in reaction to the colossal screw up of removing the WM size choice which never made any sense to begin with.

I doubt that anything has happened to WM owners except a couple of programmer screw ups that will be fixed at some point.  II still has 1+ year old bugs that they haven't fixed so I don't know how long this will take to fix.

Now if, in the mean time, the WM owners suffer injury due to II's incompetence well that's when the lawyers start to get excited.


----------



## gmarine (Jul 18, 2007)

Using my account I still have the option of entering the size WM unit to search with.


----------



## timeos2 (Jul 18, 2007)

*They are ALL points systems*

You have to realize all exchange systems - except for those that take in anything and allow you to take out anything - are based on points systems. The only difference is are you as the customer privy to the point (trade) value or is it hidden?  Until the past decade most systems used hidden values but the rise of the mini-systems with the points out in the open has created a demand for all systems to open up the values.  So far RCI Weeks and II have not but the trend is clear.  Developers HATE when the values are exposed as that shows the majority of time they need to sell (non-summer, non-holiday - general off season times) doesn't hold much value to anyone. They prefer the smoke and mirrors of "trade anywhere" that hidden values foster.  Give the suckers - er, customers hope of a great trade with that mud week and they're happy. AT least until the rescind period runs out. After that what timeshare company could care? 

Those who are so set against points based exchange systems are basically trying to keep the values hidden to serve their own purposes.  It helps to hoodwink the lower value owner and allows the high value times to get a subsidy. (Same fees for summer beach and January weeks - are you kidding?)
But they don't want you to realize that behind the scenes nearly every exchange is points based.


----------



## rhonda (Jul 18, 2007)

Perry,

You may add:

Green Season: (Lowest demand)
4BR=2 Points

Example:  Port Trinitie (PTY), Nov-30 arrival.


----------



## rhonda (Jul 18, 2007)

Other observations:

The point values do NOT follow the resort's specified seasons.  Several Orlando resorts marked "Red 1-52" show lower point values for Sept 15th arrivals than the same unit one day later.  Example:

Blue Tree Resort at Lake Buena Vista • BLT
Orlando, FL, USA
Red 1-52

Sep 15 2007 - Sep 22 2007, 2BR -> 1 Point
Sep 16 2007 - Sep 23 2007, 2BR -> 2 Points  

===========

Quality may also play a factor.  Example:

Celebrity Resorts Orlando - Spas • SPA
Red 1-52

Aug 24 2007 - Aug 31 2007, *3BR* -> 1 Point

===========

EDITED TO ADD:
More exploring on the published seasons ...
HI appears to have seasons.  MMO  studio for July is 0.5 points while KAH studio in December is 1.0.
San Diego, even for inland properties, enjoys "Red year round" status.  Lots of data for various LW codes, SD Country Estates and Riviera Oaks.


----------



## CraigU (Jul 18, 2007)

I don't know what they have displayed but I can tell you it is not what they use to measure comparable exchange. That is unless they have changed something dramatically from when I was there.


----------



## roadsister (Jul 18, 2007)

Could it be the given points at that time for demand of that time?  That would make the points change during different times of the day?  Say every 4 hours the demand changes therefore the point values change?  Just a thought.


----------



## SharonD (Jul 18, 2007)

I had the same problem this weekend -- NO results at all when I searched Worldmark for any destination, any date.  I wrote to II customer service and they said they were working on it.

The problem is corrected today, and is back to "normal" -- I see the selection for unit size first, then the usual results.  I don't see the points values mentioned above.


----------



## LLW (Jul 18, 2007)

It IS back to normal! Can no longer see the points! Darn!  I saw them late morning this morning.


----------



## PerryM (Jul 18, 2007)

*We saw something....flying saucers maybe?*

Well WorldMark searches are back to normal and the Points are now gone.

I believe we saw Trading Power - at least how programmers see it.  Sadly I had work to do and could only spend 15 minutes looking at what those Points meant - space aliens maybe?

I'm going to leave my analysis out here and available for others to ponder.

Funny how fast II fixed the problem...


----------



## luv_maui (Jul 19, 2007)

Looks like the points are now gone.  It's back to the float 1,2 or 3 bedroom.


----------



## kapish (Jul 19, 2007)

luv_maui said:


> Looks like the points are now gone.  It's back to the float 1,2 or 3 bedroom.


Yes. I saw the points for a little bit, and then went away and looked again and the old float info. was put back int there. My 1 BR 'replacement week' was worth .75 points...


----------



## BocaBum99 (Jul 19, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Well WorldMark searches are back to normal and the Points are now gone.
> 
> I believe we saw Trading Power - at least how programmers see it.  Sadly I had work to do and could only spend 15 minutes looking at what those Points meant - space aliens maybe?
> 
> ...



I think this provides insights into how exchange companies implement trading power.  So, the theory of dynamic trading values in a weeks' exchange company is probably more wishful thinking than anything else.   At the end of the day, a number needs to be assigned and the assignment process, no matter what it is, is subject to lots of problems.


----------



## PerryM (Jul 19, 2007)

*The gory details...*



BocaBum99 said:


> I think this provides insights into how exchange companies implement trading power.  So, the theory of dynamic trading values in a weeks' exchange company is probably more wishful thinking than anything else.   At the end of the day, a number needs to be assigned and the assignment process, no matter what it is, is subject to lots of problems.



I can see multiplying the Points by some decaying factor that represents a rotting fish - an exchange that wasn't snapped up instantly by an on-going search but sits out there for months - it needs to lose Trading Power so II can make money with an exchange.  However these numbers are so big, relative to each other, that to decay from 1 to .75 is a HUGE amount - 25% decay to the next number seems to be just too big a leap.

However, dynamic values representing the "worth" of a unit doesn't seem to be part of the secret number which we briefly saw - kind of like lifting the covers on the operating table - just a bunch of gore underneath.


----------



## "Roger" (Jul 19, 2007)

LLW said:


> They listened to your complaint about the insanity of us using a 3BR to pull a 1BR and getting charged only for the 1BR!
> ...


Intriguing.  

I don't think you were seeing trading power (as measured by II) per se.  I would think CraigU would know something about what trading power numbers look like.  What then?  

Most likely, we are seeing the numbers which Worldmark and II use (as negotiated by contract) to determine how much value Worldmark has to put back into the II system to compensate for the trades that Worldmark owners make. If, for example, a Worldmark owner were to take a 2BR unit at the Blue Tree resort on Sept. 15, Worldmark would have to put 1 unit of value from their system back into II. On the other hand, if a different owner were to garner a 2Br unit at the same resort, Worldmark would have to put 2 units of value back into the system.  (See Rhonda's post #17.)  

Notice, this says nothing about what the Worldmark _owner_ herself will be required to give up (that is, the insanity of having to give up a three bedroom to get a one bedroom also known as the insanity of the Weeks system).  It only addresses how much value Worldmark itself has to give up.

Also notice that Worldmark does not have to compensate in kind (a Hawaii unit for a Hawaii unit).  That is often one of the complaints we hear about the RCI Points system.  (Common complaint #241: "I think that if someone from the Points system takes a New Hampshire week from the Weeks system, then RCI should have to put a New Hamshire week back into Weeks in compensation.") Well, apparently the interface between Worldmark and II works just the same as between Points and Weeks.

[Note:  I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.  If Weeks is short on Hawaii weeks and long on New Hampshire weeks, why would it be a good thing for Points to replace New Hampshire with New Hamshire?]

I am sure there is more to observe/speculate about, but this is what I make of this oddity for now.  Intriguing.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Jul 19, 2007)

"Roger" said:


> Intriguing.
> 
> I don't think you were seeing trading power (as measured by II) per se.  I would think CraigU would know something about what trading power numbers look like.  What then?
> 
> ...



Roger,

I think you nailed it.  That makes the most sense to me.


----------



## PerryM (Jul 19, 2007)

"Roger" said:


> Intriguing.
> 
> I don't think you were seeing trading power (as measured by II) per se.  I would think CraigU would know something about what trading power numbers look like.  What then?
> 
> ...




The exchange rate is quite simple: 10,000 WM credits for a 2BR Red week, 9,000 WM credits for a 1BR, and 8,000 WM credits for a Studio, with 4,000 WM credits for 59-days or less of any size.

I see no reason to keep numbers like .75 or 1.42 on file for a WM exchange.

But, I only had 15 minutes to draw a conclusion - mine still stands - Trading Power; and not just for WM.


----------



## "Roger" (Jul 19, 2007)

PerryM said:


> The exchange rate is quite simple: 10,000 WM credits for a 2BR Red week, 9,000 WM credits for a 1BR, and 8,000 WM credits for a Studio, with 4,000 WM credits for 59-days or less of any size.


Perry,

I am not sure why you are citing those numbers.  My post says nothing about what Worldmark owners pay for different sized units.  It has to do with the arrangements between Worldmark and II.



PerryM said:


> ... But, I only had 15 minutes to draw a conclusion - mine still stands - Trading Power; and not just for WM.


Maybe you are unaware of who CraigU is.  He was, until about two or three years ago, a long time VP for II.  He is likely to know what the trading power numbers within II look like. 

Maybe 15 minutes to think wasn't enough.


----------



## PerryM (Jul 19, 2007)

"Roger" said:


> Perry,
> 
> I am not sure why you are citing those numbers.  My post says nothing about what Worldmark owners pay for different sized units.  It has to do with the arrangements between Worldmark and II.
> 
> ...




The arrangement between II and WorldMark have no bearing with the Points that were displayed - as far as I can determine.

Here's how WM works in II:
I get a 2BR Red week II exchange - I cough up 10,000 WM credits.
I then find a studio in Red week and cough up 8,000 WM credits.

At the end of a month or quarter II turns in an invoice to WM for 18,000 WM credits in this case.  WM then turns over a basket of weeks in various seasons and locations and unit sizes but they total up to 18,000 WM credits.

I don't see where another number is needed - it's up to WM to fulfill a generic basket of weeks/sizes/seasons.  The description the programmers gave was "Points" and not "Units".  If it had said "Units" I would agree with your assessment.


CraigU has not been an employee of II for about 2 years now, if I'm not mistaken, and a new way to handle exchanges could have been implemented - we can only guess.

However, I'm not going to defend my guesses - just present what I see as enough information to implement an exchange company based upon the Points II displayed.


The II programmers seem to be error prone and maybe next time we will get more information - just wait for the next screw up.


----------



## CraigU (Jul 19, 2007)

I called a friend who is still employed in a high level position who is familiar with comparable exchange and they advised me the formula used has not changed. I can't explain what you were seeing but it wasn't trade power.



PerryM said:


> CraigU has not been an employee of II for about 2 years now, if I'm not mistaken, and a new way to handle exchanges could have been implemented - we can only guess.


----------



## PerryM (Jul 19, 2007)

*Pixie Dust...*



CraigU said:


> I called a friend who is still employed in a high level position who is familiar with comparable exchange and they advised me the formula used has not changed. I can't explain what you were seeing but it wasn't trade power.




Craig, I believe you.

So what would II have that:

1) Identical units (2BR unit at same resort) that changed in value from 1 to 1.42 to 2 over the course of many months.

2) Had only 6 numbers (.5,.75,1,1.42,2, and 2.42) among ALL units I looked at - about 200 or so in 15 minutes.

3) II only says they have 3 seasons - I believe them.


I can devise an exchange system based upon those 3 criteria.  I can see where a unit could "age" over time and slip from a 2 to a 1.42 and that would provide for inventory that is not moving.


I just don't see where anything else is needed to make Trading Power - well except for pixie dust.


Until another explanation comes along that uses those 6 numbers I'll stick with Trading Power.  But, let me say again, I don't disbelieve anyone for saying it's something different.


----------



## CraigU (Jul 19, 2007)

Perry:

You may be looking at "conversion numbers" from Worldmark points relating to unit sizes to the comparable exchange system or as someone suggested the "pay back" values which would be my best guess. I don't know in what direction the points changed values but usually the points required for various unit sizes diminishes as the occupancy date approaches. If the pattern was the same on the inventory you were viewing, we may have stumbled upon the explanation with Rogers help. 

As far as I.I. having three color codes, I believe it explains that color codes are not used to measure comparable exchanges. Each specific week has a value which is calculated using the factors outlined in their terms and conditions under comparable exchange.



PerryM said:


> 1) Identical units (2BR unit at same resort) that changed in value from 1 to 1.42 to 2 over the course of many months.
> 
> 3) II only says they have 3 seasons - I believe them.


----------



## Carol C (Jul 19, 2007)

rhonda said:


> Other observations:
> 
> The point values do NOT follow the resort's specified seasons.  Several Orlando resorts marked "Red 1-52" show lower point values for Sept 15th arrivals than the same unit one day later.  Example:
> 
> ...



It boggles the mind! Why would a Saturday check-in week (Sept 15) cost half the pts of a Sunday check-in wk (Sept 16)?


----------



## CraigU (Jul 19, 2007)

Perhaps one was within the flexchange window and the other not when availability was checked on this one? Just a guess...



Carol C said:


> It boggles the mind! Why would a Saturday check-in week (Sept 15) cost half the pts of a Sunday check-in wk (Sept 16)?


----------



## PerryM (Jul 19, 2007)

*Nothing but the facts...well sort of...*



CraigU said:


> Perry:
> 
> You may be looking at "conversion numbers" from Worldmark points relating to unit sizes to the comparable exchange system or as someone suggested the "pay back" values which would be my best guess. I don't know in what direction the points changed values but usually the points required for various unit sizes diminishes as the occupancy date approaches. If the pattern was the same on the inventory you were viewing, we may have stumbled upon the explanation with Rogers help.
> 
> As far as I.I. having three color codes, I believe it explains that color codes are not used to measure comparable exchanges. Each specific week has a value which is calculated using the factors outlined in their terms and conditions under comparable exchange.




I build stock trading systems for a living - thousands of them in 20+ years.  I only have 6 pieces of information to work with and the combinations and permutations are horrific from just those 6 bits of data.

With II we only have a few precious bits of information (at least I do) and we can't extrapolate from the givens:

1) WM owners give up WM credits in a fixed table, e.g. 8,000 WM credits for a Red studio.

2) When I called II 2 years ago and asked for a detailed explanation of how all this worked I was passed on to a systems analyst/programmer and the scenario I've outlined is what was explained to me - the basket of WM units in exchange for the invoice of WM credits.

3) My conversion with the analyst never brought up the topic of "like for like", e.g. 150 2BR Red weeks, 75 1BR Yellow weeks, 55 Studio Green weeks were exchanged and thus this is the basket of units WM must return.

4) The Points that magically appeared and then disappeared - they were Points and a very specific set of 6 spread among 3 seasons with 4 unit sizes.

5) The Points were removed within 2 hours of my report - I know of bugs 1 year old in II.

6) The Points seem to not fit any other purpose but Trading Power.



So from my prospective those 6 facts/suppositions lead me to conclude that we saw something very important to II, and THE most important topic is Trading Power.

But, I am open to adding more facts/suppositions that could completely change my scenario.


Am I wrong - of course I can be wrong,


----------



## PerryM (Jul 19, 2007)

Carol C said:


> It boggles the mind! Why would a Saturday check-in week (Sept 15) cost half the pts of a Sunday check-in wk (Sept 16)?



Simple: duplicates.  If the 59-day window was involved the Points mean nothing.

Saturday check-in is very popular and a duplicate deposit would come in a lower Trading Power so II can get a much larger universe of searches to find it.

Nothing that I've every read or inferred with II or RCI leads me to conclude that making money for the II/RCI stockholders isn't their all consuming drive.


----------

