# New HGVC ripoff? (guest fee for family member)



## jj2011 (May 12, 2011)

One reason we purchased Hilton was that we had 6 children and the point system would make it easy to allow us to give them vacations now that they are all married.  'Guest' confirmations were always free for family members and that was a major part of the sales pitch.  I booked Sea World for my son and his wife and HGVC wants us to pay $39 for them.

They say it's in the new 2011 Member Guide and that the "Statement of Understanding" we signed on purchase allows the new fee.  All I see in that statement is that "HGVC has the right to periodically amend the HGVClub Member guide ... *so long as any changes are made to benefit Club Members as a whole*."  The rep tried to justify this by saying that this new fee helps by bringing new revenue so they don't have to raise other fees.  Sorry, but it doesn't benefit ALL members equally as a whole since it splits members into two classes.  It causes members with families to pay more for a family member to use as a way to keep prices lower for members without families.  I can't complain about the fee for non-family guests (it was listed in the fee schedule back in 2000) but I'm certainly not happy to see them attempt to change the long-standing rules regarding family.  If the rep was correct in his supposed explanation, I think it is an unfair (and possibly illegal) interpretation of the Statement of Understanding if they claim that adding a new discriminatory fee is something I agreed to.

As further arguement, at the bottom of the first paragraph of page 142 of the online 2011 Club Rules it says "Accommodations available through the Club are for the personal use and enjoyment of Members, the Member's immediate family, and guests personally known and acquainted with Members."  There are clearly 3 types of occupants: Members, immediate family, and guests.  Since guests are defined different than immediate family, and the fee schedule says that the $39 fee is for reservations "made on behalf of Guest", I don't know how they can get away with claiming that the fee should apply to family members.  I can't find anywhere that says a fee applies to reservations made on behalf of family members.

Fee schedules from 2000 and 2002 showed "family members" as complementary and "friend or other guest" with a $39 fee.  I don't think the fact that the current fee schedule dropped mention of "family members" would change them into being considered as guests - although perhaps they buried that somewhere else.  I don't have a printed copy of the Member Guide, and the online version isn't easy to review. 

Anyone else had a problem with this new fee for family member use?

I'm also curious if anyone else with a family got the sales pitch about how ownership would be a great thing for their children to use for themselves as they got older and had their own families?  There was certainly no hint that they ever planned to try to make more money from family use.

Until recently I'd been quite happy with Hilton and thought they were generally reasonable and respectful of their customers for the most part, but I'm afraid this is more indication of a downward trend and willingness to do anything for an extra buck.

Hilton claims the "I" in Hilton stands for Integrity... :hysterical:


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## sjuhawk_jd (May 13, 2011)

jj2011 said:


> One reason we purchased Hilton was that we had 6 children and the point system would make it easy to allow us to give them vacations now that they are all married.  'Guest' confirmations were always free for family members and that was a major part of the sales pitch.  I booked Sea World for my son and his wife and HGVC wants us to pay $39 for them.
> 
> They say it's in the new 2011 Member Guide and that the "Statement of Understanding" we signed on purchase allows the new fee.  All I see in that statement is that "HGVC has the right to periodically amend the HGVClub Member guide ... *so long as any changes are made to benefit Club Members as a whole*."  The rep tried to justify this by saying that this new fee helps by bringing new revenue so they don't have to raise other fees.  Sorry, but it doesn't benefit ALL members equally as a whole since it splits members into two classes.  It causes members with families to pay more for a family member to use as a way to keep prices lower for members without families.  I can't complain about the fee for non-family guests (it was listed in the fee schedule back in 2000) but I'm certainly not happy to see them attempt to change the long-standing rules regarding family.  If the rep was correct in his supposed explanation, I think it is an unfair (and possibly illegal) interpretation of the Statement of Understanding if they claim that adding a new discriminatory fee is something I agreed to.
> 
> ...



Some of these issue has been discussed here before. It is very difficult sometime to understand who is immediate family member and who is not! My brother has different last name than mine. Unmarried children have different last names than parents these days. These loopholes can be used by members to avoid paying the guest fees for "guests." 

If it will make you feel better, Wyndham charges $100 for the guest certificate (GC) fee for anybody whose name is not on the contract. Often, when you make a 7 night reservation, they give you a split reservation requiring a move. If you order a GC at the time of booking, it is $100 fee. If you request GC at a later date, it is considered two GCs and you pay $200. 

$39 fee is very reasonable and there is nothing to complain about in my view.


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## PigsDad (May 13, 2011)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> $39 fee is very reasonable and there is nothing to complain about in my view.


While HGVC's $39 guest certificate fee may be less than what other timeshare systems charge, I certainly don't find it "reasonable".

It is a junk fee, plain and simple.  They (as in almost _all _timeshare companies) are charging their consumers a fee for a service that literally costs them nothing, or next to nothing.  Why should they care who is actually staying in the room?  Does it cost them _*one cent more *_if you stay in the room vs. your neighbor down the street?  Absolutely not!  These GC fees are simply a way to milk more $$ from their customers.

I'll give you another scenario:  Say that hotels started charging their customers for each time they use their key card to open the door to their room.  If most of the other hotels charged $5/swipe and Hilton charged $1/swipe, would Hilton's charge be considered "reasonable"?  Not to me -- they would all be obscene.

Kurt


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## sjuhawk_jd (May 13, 2011)

PigsDad said:


> While HGVC's $39 guest certificate fee may be less than what other timeshare systems charge, I certainly don't find it "reasonable".
> 
> It is a junk fee, plain and simple.  They (as in almost _all _timeshare companies) are charging their consumers a fee for a service that literally costs them nothing, or next to nothing...



If the annual cost of running and managing call center is $10 million per year and the call center handles 1 million calls in a year, then the cost per call is $10. In some industries, this avg call cost is over $25 per call. This is way more than "next to nothing."

One day, we all will pay airlines to use bathrooms on the flights. That will be junk fee. GC fee is not a junk fee in any way or shape. I do not like it, but I understand the reason. This is a good way to pass the costs to people who request lot of guest certificates and not charge increased Club dues to people who only make 1 reservation per year for themselves (therefore only 1 or 2 calls per year), versus somebody who makes 15 calls per year to HGVC to book 6-7 weeks for themselves and their guests. Big difference in costs to HGVC between these two scenarios. 

Wyndham's guest certificate fee is punitive towards Mega renters who own millions of Wyndham points just to rent them out.


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## Talent312 (May 13, 2011)

The fee is listed on page 151 of the Guide in the "Guest Confirmations" box.
Guest confirmations for home-week stays are still complementary.

Alternatives to having family members treated as guests could be to add them as co-owners on your deed or to create a family trust _(after checking w-HGVC's transfer division for their requirements, of course)_.


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## jj2011 (May 13, 2011)

It's not the guest fee itself that bothers me.  I would have no problem paying it for a non-family member.

In fact, the Fee Schedule in January 2000 when I purchased the timeshare included a fee for friends/guests:

Guest Confirmation:
  Family Member  - Complementary
  Friend or other Guest  -  $39

The current fee schedule also mentions reservations made on behalf of guests, but doesn't say anything to indicate that the fee should now apply to family members.

It's not the fee, but that fact that they made it very clear when I purchased the unit that family members could occupy the unit, and that was a major factor in my purchase decision.  My wife and I bought more points than we could use for the benefit of our children.

Also, I don't buy the cost argument.  The fact that Hilton requires people to use their call center to change the occupant name rather than enter it online is their own poor decision which results in higher costs to them.

Since they had always made a distinction between immediate family members and other guests, they could have easily asked me to fill out a list of my family members at the time of purchase.  Determining who is a family member shouldn't be an issue, nor should it be necessary to have everyone's names on the deed.


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## Talent312 (May 13, 2011)

_Not what you want to hear, but..._ "The only constant is change." -- Heraclitus of Ephesus (c.535 BC - 475 BC)

I'm not surprised that they've discontinued the distinction between guests and "family members," since claims of kinship are so easily abused. 

-----------------------------
But I would not get too het-up over a "promise" by a sales-creep. "Representations upon which a member may rely are those contained in the Club Disclosure Statement or otherwise supplied in writing... No other represenations are valid or binding. -- Guide, pg. 148.


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## levatino (May 13, 2011)

Between the fee to use the Hilton 'network' and the guest fee, these fees are adding up to me.


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## floyddl (May 13, 2011)

Do you really need to change the confirmation?  Why not just notify the resort to add your family member to your reservation and keep it in your name.  You can just tell them that you will not be arriving with your family member.  Any time you change a confirmation it costs you but I don't think you should have to request a new confirmation.


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## sjuhawk_jd (May 13, 2011)

floyddl said:


> Do you really need to change the confirmation?  Why not just notify the resort to add your family member to your reservation and keep it in your name.  You can just tell them that you will not be arriving with your family member.  Any time you change a confirmation it costs you but I don't think you should have to request a new confirmation.



Unless the "family members" are not really family members, and one does not want to assume responsibility when they are enjoying your vacation condo


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## jsb15 (May 13, 2011)

I had hoped to avoid this type of scenario by listing the purchase in a family trust.  HGVC gave me a very hard time and only agreed to title it Mr. Doe, trustee and Mrs. Doe, trustee.  They did get the trust documents and I am hoping the resort will accept a letter identifying a child as an additional trustee if I want to make a reservation for an adult child.

I agree that there is no cost to HGVC for a GC name change.  As another has stated, the fact they want us to call them and not do it on-line when the reservation is made is their choice alone.


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## jestme (May 13, 2011)

I will be the first to admit, I know nothing about US law as it pertains to estates, however, what we did was add our kids to the deed ( they were over 21). We also had them sign a "first right of purchase" directly with us for $1, if we decided to exercise it. That way, in case of a nasty divorce, etc. we can buy their access to it back for $1. I don't really care how Hilton feels about that. All it would mean is that they would forgo any use of it if we exercised our option. As everyone already knows, a timeshare is rarely an asset to be fought for in a divorce, but I'd hate to have to go on vacation with my son's "ex" and new husband and kids.... As owners, they don't need a guest certificate.


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## jin (May 13, 2011)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> If the annual cost of running and managing call center is $10 million per year and the call center handles 1 million calls in a year, then the cost per call is $10. In some industries, this avg call cost is over $25 per call. This is way more than "next to nothing."
> 
> One day, we all will pay airlines to use bathrooms on the flights. That will be junk fee. GC fee is not a junk fee in any way or shape. I do not like it, but I understand the reason. This is a good way to pass the costs to people who request lot of guest certificates and not charge increased Club dues to people who only make 1 reservation per year for themselves (therefore only 1 or 2 calls per year), versus somebody who makes 15 calls per year to HGVC to book 6-7 weeks for themselves and their guests. Big difference in costs to HGVC between these two scenarios.
> 
> Wyndham's guest certificate fee is punitive towards Mega renters who own millions of Wyndham points just to rent them out.



This may be true, but what is the cost to HGVC for adding a guest ONLINE, as we previously could do until they took this ability away....


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## jestme (May 13, 2011)

jin said:


> This may be true, but what is the cost to HGVC for adding a guest ONLINE, as we previously could do until they took this ability away....



It could be the cost of them renting the unit through Hilton Hotels, rather than an HGVC owner's "buddy". As Talent312 said, from HGVC's standpoint, it is very hard to discern a family member from someone's neighbor next door who may or may not have the same last name. Although I feel for the OP and the sales person's inference, even the OP's concept of who he would call "family" could get into the grey area quickly.


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## dougp26364 (May 13, 2011)

Talent312 said:


> The fee is listed on page 151 of the Guide in the "Guest Confirmations" box.
> Guest confirmations for home-week stays are still complementary.
> 
> Alternatives to having family members treated as guests could be to add them as co-owners on your deed or to create a family trust _(after checking w-HGVC's transfer division for their requirements, of course)_.



The problem with this is it tags them as owners who can be held responsible for MF's should the parents be unable to pay the MF's for any reason. If the parents default and the kids don't pick up the tab, it can affect everyone who's listed as an owner's credit. 

I'd pay the fee vs put my children on the hook for ever increasing MF's, potentially for the rest of their lives. For that matter, I wouldn't put into a trust, which could end up being required to pay the fee's long after the estate is settled. All of this legal manuvering will cost more and, could cost a LOT more in the long run. How many $39 fee's would it take to equal even one additional years MF's that might have to be paid by either the children or a trust?


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## Talent312 (May 13, 2011)

dougp26364 said:


> The problem with this is it tags them as owners who can be held responsible for MF's... For that matter, I wouldn't put into a trust, which could end up being required to pay the fee's long after the estate is settled. All of this legal manuvering will cost more and, could cost a LOT more in the long run.



_I cannot disagree with these objections._
I wouldn't consider doing either of those things for my stepsons for those reasons.
These two characters (being charitable) are not worth the hassle. If they had any
interest in using the points, I'd have no problem paying the pesky-little fee.


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## DEROS (May 13, 2011)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> If the annual cost of running and managing call center is $10 million per year and the call center handles 1 million calls in a year, then the cost per call is $10. In some industries, this avg call cost is over $25 per call. This is way more than "next to nothing."
> 
> .



Eventually guest certificates will be automated.  Remember with ATM was free and the banks wanted you to use them because they can fire some of the tellers?  ATM were actually saving banks money.  Then the Banks realize that they could make money.  Hence the $2.00-$5.00 service charge.

DEROS


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## greenwich3 (May 14, 2011)

If you paid direct through Hilton which means they made a very healthy profit, this fee is just adding salt to the wound.  If you are one who takes the annual "update", complain about the fee there and that you will never consider buying until the fee is abolished from the system.

They have the right to add the fee, and we have the right to go to the update and complain.  If they feel they are losing sales be UAE of it, it may do some good.


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## Talent312 (May 14, 2011)

You also have the right to inundate their mailbox at input@hgvc.com
I suspect that most of those are quicky moved to a "whiner" folder.


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## Purseval (May 15, 2011)

dougp26364 said:


> How many $39 fee's would it take to equal even one additional years MF's that might have to be paid by either the children or a trust?



I agree with this.  The MFs are something my wife and I voluntarily took upon ourselves to pay.  Adding a child's name to the deed sticks them with the bill whether they want it or not.  I'd rather pay the fee and give them a choice whenever the time comes.


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## hvacrsteve (May 15, 2011)

The fees I pay are more than adequate to cover the cost!
I could get a hotel room many times for what I pay.
I will not pay any guest reservation fee, I have already paid for the use of the timeshare.
It does not matter whom actually shows up to stay in it.

I will fight to not pay this fee!


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## sjuhawk_jd (May 16, 2011)

Talent312 said:


> ...
> I suspect that most of those are quicky moved to a "whiner" folder.


:hysterical: :rofl: :hysterical:


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## intromaster (May 17, 2011)

hvacrsteve said:


> The fees I pay are more than adequate to cover the cost!
> I could get a hotel room many times for what I pay.
> I will not pay any guest reservation fee, I have already paid for the use of the timeshare.
> It does not matter whom actually shows up to stay in it.
> ...



I agree, wholeheartedly!

Whether it's $39 or $100 -fight it!

These mega corporations want us to say, "oh, well it's only $39 - I'll just pay and forget about it" 

It's all extra profit at the expense of its own members. Add up all those $39 fees and see what you come up with!


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## jsb15 (May 18, 2011)

I don't understand the reluctance to add a child to the deed.  I'm not "sticking" them with the bill because I am paying it.  I'll admit HGVC could go after them if I declared bankruptcy but that is (for me) a much lower risk than HGVC deciding to charge $1000+ to transfer the deed to them at a later date or charge a $200 guest fee.  Having them on the deed gives them open season access.  It's not if there is no obligation to pay the maintenance fees when the owner's decide to stop paying or die.  I could see where someone argues that they have a child who now wants equity out of the ownership interest and that might not protect the interests the original purchaser but these posts seem to object to this as protection for the child.


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## pianodinosaur (May 18, 2011)

If the owner is traveling with a guest or relative, there is no additional fee be it a home week reservation or not.


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## Talent312 (May 18, 2011)

jsb15 said:


> I don't understand the reluctance to add a child to the deed.  I'm not "sticking" them with the bill because I am paying it...



What would happen if you were to die? The surviving owners (names on the deed) would be liable for the MF's, dues and taxes, under the terms of their membership. Your estate could abandon your share, unless it passed to them by right of survivorship. But theirs would continue in any event. They could find themselves sued for foreclosure.

One way to avoid this would be with a life insurance policy with a sufficient death benefit to pay the MF's during their lifetime.  You could direct that the proceeds be paid into a trust for the purpose of paying such fees.

But doesn't this seem a rather convoluted way of avoiding a guest fee?


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## Talent312 (May 18, 2011)

> If the owner is traveling with a guest or relative, there is no additional fee be it a home week reservation or not.



True. You could show up just to check 'em in, give 'em their room key and leave them to do their own thing... But that could be a rather expensive way of avoiding a guest fee.


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## jestme (May 18, 2011)

Talent312 said:


> What would happen if you were to die? The surviving owners (names on the deed) would be liable for the MF's, dues and taxes, under the terms of their membership. Your estate could abandon your share, unless it passed to them by right of survivorship. But theirs would continue in any event. They could find themselves sued for foreclosure.
> 
> One way to avoid this would be with a life insurance policy with a sufficient death benefit to pay the MF's during their lifetime.  You could direct that the proceeds be paid into a trust for the purpose of paying such fees.
> 
> But doesn't this seem a rather convoluted way of avoiding a guest fee?



My kids are 30 and 26. They were more than happy to have their name on my deed rather than making their own TS purchase.  I didn't force it on them. They travel some already, and their other option was to purchase on their own. Then when I pass on, they would have two sets of MF's. Having their name on the deed doesn't change the inheritance issue. In Canada, you either accept or reject the entire inheritance. You don`t get to pick and choose. As it is they get access not only to any reservations without guest fees, but full access to Open Season as well, without using my points. If after I'm gone, if they can't afford the MF's on my Hawaii Kalia TS, they can easily rent it out for the MF's.


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## jnjn (Jun 4, 2011)

*Even multiple rooms?*



pianodinosaur said:


> If the owner is traveling with a guest or relative, there is no additional fee be it a home week reservation or not.



Say  I am staying there and have 4 rooms? Still no fees?


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## PigsDad (Jun 4, 2011)

jnjn said:


> Say  I am staying there and have 4 rooms? Still no fees?


Correct -- no additional "guest" fees.  You as the owner will check in for all four rooms.

Kurt


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