# How to help my sister in law?



## ada903 (Sep 8, 2011)

Over time I came to tuggers on this lounge forum as a great place to find advice on crazy things, anywhere from routers and coffee filters to matters of the heart and soul.  I am always impressed with the diversity of approaches and expertise that you guys have, and I thank you in advance for all the help.

Here is my latest dilemma.  I would love to be able to give proper advice/help my sister in law.  She has been married for over 30 years, 3 kids are grown and out of the house, and for many many years she has been quietly putting up with something none of us knew that her husband does.  She finally came out and told the family.

Her husband is literally crazy - he is obsessed and convinced that she is cheating big time - with multiple partners - and has been controlling/monitoring/terrorizing her for years.  He imagines things - sees odd hairs in the bath tub, or argues someone (her lover) wore his underwear!  He hides recorders in the house, her car, calls her obsessively, shows up at the house or her work unexpectedly, questions her every move.  He imagines wild wild things, for example he is convinced that she has lovers that come to his house regularly in the morning when she wakes up and before she gets to work, and that those men use his things, shower, etc.  - and he has shown up from work unexpectedly over and over and over in those early hours, to "catch" her.

Now you need to understand, my sister in law is this incredible simple woman, beautiful generous heart, an amazing Christian, who has been silently suffering and putting up with this - and even now her heart breaks not because she is unhappy, but because he is so tormented and she feels bad for him!  He is angry all the time and treats her like a prostitute, literally, because he strongly believes she is cheating all day long.

They went to semi-professional counseling (a lady at their church who is also a counselor), but it did not work out.  He does not admit he has a problem.  In addition, he abuses alcohol daily - mixes 3-6 beers and wine daily, so that doesn't help.

I am trying to understand: when someone is so far broken apart from reality that he imagines things and believes them strongly, what condition is this?  Some kind of mental illness like schizophrenia?  Where does she go for help from here? Can he be ever cured?

We want to help direct her somewhere to get help, but where?


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## loafingcactus (Sep 8, 2011)

If she wants to leave she will, if she doesn't she won't.  You can't make it happen.  Also, the more you listen the more you "let out the steam" which contributes to the situation continuing through several different pathways (another being that listening without doing anything makes it seem more rather than less normal).  "If you want to leave I will help you, but otherwise we won't be talking about it.". You can also call the police yourself if you have an evidence of abuse, but unfortunately that can increase the danger if she won't go.

Meanwhile, you can help make a plan that will help her when she is ready to go, because when she leaves he very well might kill someone, so she needs to disappear and you and your family and her children need to be ready with your own security plan.  You can talk to your local women's center and see what you need to do to make that happen.  Different states offer different levels of help, but there are groups ready with hotel rooms and resources.

Where I'm coming from: I was involved in church social services and this was the advice we were given by the social councilors (especially about not facilitating by being a listener), and my husband at the time was involved with a group that would come in with a truck while the guy was at work and make the woman and her belongings disappear.

Eta: From a Christian perspective, she's putting him in danger by letting him sin against her and being in danger of him killing her.  In my opinion, leaving is ESPECIALLY the right thing for a Christian wife to do.


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## CarolF (Sep 8, 2011)

It is domestic violence.  A counsellor specialising in that area might help her understand her options.  I'm not familiar with your laws but suspect such violence would be as illegal there as it is here.


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## vacationhopeful (Sep 8, 2011)

loafingcactus has expressed this very clearly. LISTENING, even passively, is allowing her to rationize and justify his behavior. She can only CHANGE herself. 

Making an issue of _HIS mental illness_ will cause HIM or his lawyer to ask her for support payments, as HE is ill. And his alcoholic behavior is also an illness .... hence, support payments from her. And his mental illness might just be delusional alcoholism.

How much does she drink? Most longterm partners are also drinkers. If you think (or say to yourself, she knows her limit) she doesn't drink, chances (and percentages in studies) are you are grossly wrong.

I again state, loafingcactus has the best approach.


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## Big Matt (Sep 8, 2011)

I would ask her if this pattern has been increasing or getting weirder over time.  If so, I think she's in a lot of danger.  Things like this often end up in violence, murder/suicide, etc.  

I don't want to freak you out, but this stuff is real and the patterns are obvious here.  

If I were her, I would get in touch with someone she can trust to find out how she can protect herself (from him).


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## ada903 (Sep 8, 2011)

She does not drink - not regularly. Once in a blue moon she will have a half a glass of wine at dinner. I know that for a fact.  He tried to convince her to drink, but she doesn't like it. 

It's a common situation in the family where she comes from (Romanians!) that the men abuse alcohol but women don't.


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## ada903 (Sep 8, 2011)

Things have been bad since the early 90's, but have gotten worse in the past few years since the kids moved out.

She can't move anywhere where he would not find her, the whole family is here - kids, parents, brothers and sisters.


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## glypnirsgirl (Sep 8, 2011)

I am providing this link to bolster the other opinions.

To me, if she has covered this up for years and is just now talking about it, it is because she is ready to leave, but needs someone to validate her decision. She needs an exit plan and then she needs to implement it. 

Is she able to support herself? Does he make enough money that he can pay enough spousal support that she can live? Do they have children? How old are they? 

One of the first things that she will need to do is find employment if she is not currently employed. And her reasoning to him is that he should be reassured that she is working and therefore does not have available time for him to worry about.

This is not about him. It is about her. She has no power to change his behavior. If he has been doing this for years, he will not exercise his power to change his behavior. So it is up to her to change her own behavior --- and her only option is to leave and leave safely.

When I was a younger attorney and did a substantial amount of family cases, I had 2 different clients killed when they had these types of partners. One of the decedents was a man. That is when I found the article that I saw published in Ann Landers and I have kept a copy at my office for counseling people for years. 

elaine


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## ada903 (Sep 8, 2011)

She has a full time job at the local bank, and with the cost of living here, she would be just fine on her own.  The kids are grown up and independent, two of them are married and one is out of the house on her own.

This is a scary situation - what if I push her to leave him and he hurts her, I will feel guilty.  But what if she sticks with him and he still hurts her - same thing.

Just so you know, I am sending this link to my sister in law to read, to her work email, that her husband does not have access to.  She needs to hear more opinions and start thinking about what she can do to help the situation.  Thank you all again for the quick replies.


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## tashamen (Sep 8, 2011)

ada903 said:


> Her husband is literally crazy - he is obsessed and convinced that she is cheating big time - with multiple partners - and has been controlling/monitoring/terrorizing her for years.  He imagines things - sees odd hairs in the bath tub, or argues someone (her lover) wore his underwear!  He hides recorders in the house, her car, calls her obsessively, shows up at the house or her work unexpectedly, questions her every move.  He imagines wild wild things, for example he is convinced that she has lovers that come to his house regularly in the morning when she wakes up and before she gets to work, and that those men use his things, shower, etc.  - and he has shown up from work unexpectedly over and over and over in those early hours, to "catch" her.



This sounds like it could be a serious medical problem of mental illness (as another poster already suggested).  Some of these symptoms sound like they could be paranoid schizophrenia - please note I am not a medical professional, but am remembering some of the similar patterns of delusions that a close member of my family had.  The only treatments (at the time) were medication and/or hospitalization.  This is not something that a wife can help her husband with - he needs professional help.  There should be some kind of hospital or social services outreach that she can talk to to better understand the problem and HER options, including legal ones, if he won't agree to treatment.   

My heart goes out to all of you.


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## siesta (Sep 8, 2011)

Maybe he is the one cheating, typically when someone is obsessive over something like that it may be because they are feeling guilty themselves. Or hes just crazy....


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## Pat H (Sep 8, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> How much does she drink? Most longterm partners are also drinkers. If you think (or say to yourself, she knows her limit) she doesn't drink, chances (and percentages in studies) are you are grossly wrong.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Most long term partners are NOT also drinkers. It's quite the opposite. They are the people pleasers/enablers who always say everything is "fine". I can't post the definition of fine here. She should go to Al-Anon. Her husband is an alcoholic. Al-Anon is for the person affected by the alcoholic. It's not about the alcoholic. It's not an easy or quick fix but it does work. The most important thing is your SIL's safety. If the erratic behavior is escalating, she could be in extreme danger.


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## tlwmkw (Sep 8, 2011)

This sounds like a dangerous situation brewing.  He needs help but she is too close to the situation to get him to go for help.  She needs to plan and execute an exit and remove herself from the equation.  Maybe then he'll see the light.  If he is becoming so jealous and out of touch then he could become violent and then she is in real trouble.  I would encourage her to leave.

tlwmkw


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## BevL (Sep 8, 2011)

Probably a fine point but I personally wouldn't encourage her to leave.  I think the advice earlier to completely reassure her that, "If you make the decision to leave, I will do everything in my power to help you," is a good one.  You can't be responsible for the decision.

It also makes a lot of sense to me that there must be a viable exit plan before she leaves, unless the situation escalates such that she literally has to flee.  Frankly, it sounds like it might be escalating to that situation.

I'm no expert, but if it were me, I personally would be trying to research her options for safe shelter and so forth so that if she makes the decision, you can assist her to hit the ground running, as it were.  

My heart goes out to her.  It has probably taken a tremendous amount of courage for her to open up about this situation - now it will take more for her to remove herself from it.


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## Tia (Sep 8, 2011)

Exactly my thoughts after reading the original post! She or you can maybe find a local domestic violence shelter then stop by to get literature or call to talk to someone. I did this for a neighbor 5 years ago, it was shocking what had been going on once she started to open up. He was accusing her of things he was actually doing.



CarolF said:


> It is domestic violence.  A counsellor specialising in that area might help her understand her options.  I'm not familiar with your laws but suspect such violence would be as illegal there as it is here.


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## Kay H (Sep 8, 2011)

Your sil is in a very dangerous situation.  She has to think of her own safety.  Her husband is very ill and she has to look out for her self.  She may be in grave danger.  You got some good advice here but you can only help her follow through on the decision she makes.  Hopefully she will get REAL professional help.


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## ronparise (Sep 8, 2011)

When I was raising my kids I always took the attitude: expect the best you will probably get it...I also believe the flip side is true..expect the worst and thats what you will get

So at the risk of appearing an insensitive pig (and I really dont want to make light of her situation) but  this would seem to be the perfect opportunity to start seeing other men.

Thats one choice I see; another is to get out, and get out now.

And the third choice as I see it is to treat this guy as if he was sick. She wouldnt leave her husband or take a lover if he had cancer, or if he developed alzheimers; she would probably stick with him and care for him.  If she truly does see what he is doing as a sickness, I dont think any of our advice will help...she will stick by him


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## Beaglemom3 (Sep 8, 2011)

Is there any way that she can speak to his primary care physician ?

I am acutely aware of privacy issues (still retain my NP status), but this should be at least considered. The PCP may/may not be receptive, but he or she may be concerned as well and may be able to just listen to your SIL without violating his privacy. I've seen it done when I was in practice. 

You are among friends here.


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## Timeshare Von (Sep 8, 2011)

If he is actually mentally ill, can't he be involuntarily committed for psychiatric evaluation/treatment?


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## scrapngen (Sep 8, 2011)

ronparise said:


> When I was raising my kids I always took the attitude: expect the best you will probably get it...I also believe the flip side is true..expect the worst and thats what you will get
> 
> So at the risk of appearing an insensitive pig (and I really dont want to make light of her situation) but  this would seem to be the perfect opportunity to start seeing other men.
> 
> ...



Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are actually advising the woman to escalate a dangerous situation by seeking out another man????? Let's get two people in danger, not just one....:annoyed: 

PLEASE, OP, whatever you do, do not suggest this to your SIL, unless you truly do not care for her. 

BTW, To me, this doesn't make you, Ron,  appear "an insensitive pig" but certainly makes one question your advice or understanding of a volatile situation. (a huge understatement here)


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## puppymommo (Sep 8, 2011)

Timeshare Von said:


> If he is actually mentally ill, can't he be involuntarily committed for psychiatric evaluation/treatment?



I think this is a state by state thing but generally this is not possible unless a person has been shown to be a danger to self or others.  

In this case the husband may well be a danger to others, his wife in particular.  But it takes time to get something like this in place.  Probably better left until she is in a safe place.

Another possible source of support is the local chapter of NAMI -- National Alliance for Mental Illness.  They have resources and support for families of those with mental illnesses.


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## Passepartout (Sep 8, 2011)

I would advise this woman to depart this abusive relationship. There are shelters for battered and abused women in any community of any size. Restraining orders will keep her husband away from her- and if he stalks or tries to contact her he will face consequences.

She is exhibiting behavior all too common among abusive relationships. He has convinced her that she has no value, that somehow she is responsible for his behavior. Women in this type relationship actually believe their spouse. 

My heart goes out to the woman described here. I hope she can find the courage to talk to her sister, children, minister, go for counseling, possibly a divorce attorney, and lay the groundwork for getting a life of her own, not as a co-dependent.

All the best to her.

Jim Ricks


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## pjrose (Sep 8, 2011)

Yes, it could be schizophrenia or another serious mental illness.  

I think an exit plan is a good idea, but I also would suggest that she try to get him into counseling, preferably with someone who can do a full evaluation and prescribe meds.  I'm with scrapngen that she wouldn't leave her husband if he developed some other kind of illness.  Help for him will be help for her too.  

If they went to counseling at church, then perhaps he would be willing to accompany her to counseling with a psychologist, or if possible a psychiatrist who does counseling (those are rare these days).  She should frame it that it is for HER, for THEIR marriage problems.  She should see the counselor a time or two first, to give some background - that is, if she can get to a counselor without her husband thinking she's off cheating.  

If counseling and meds don't work (or if he won't accept them), then leave, go somewhere where he can't find her (she'd have to change her job).  Then contact him from afar that he must seek help and get stabilized for any possibility of further contact.


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## scrapngen (Sep 8, 2011)

pjrose said:


> Yes, it could be schizophrenia or another serious mental illness.
> 
> I think an exit plan is a good idea, but I also would suggest that she try to get him into counseling, preferably with someone who can do a full evaluation and prescribe meds.  I'm with scrapngen that she wouldn't leave her husband if he developed some other kind of illness.  Help for him will be help for her too.
> 
> ...



Just for clarity, pj  :
Actually, Ron Parise  said that about not leaving if it was another kind of illness.

Personally, I (scrappy) believe in marriage as a committed union of two people, and while I think it is "in sickness and in health" I do NOT believe that one should feel obligated to stay if anyone's welfare is at risk. This holds especially true for cases where it is a child being abused, IMO. (not that this applies here) 

I hope they are looking into shelters and counseling for domestic violence/abuse in this case. According to the post, the alcohol has only made the behaviors worse - they were already there earlier. To me, this is not so much a medical problem as an abuse issue, IMHO, but I am not a doctor or pyschologist.  The OP can be there with useful information when/if the woman is willing to seek help, but as many have said, it will have to be her decision.


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## stugy (Sep 8, 2011)

Here is my retired social worker opinion.  This man is most definitely mentally ill, probably paranoid, possibly schizophrenic.  He will not understand any attemps to help him by suggesting counseling.  He does not think he is sick.  He may well be hearing voices that incite his delusions.  
I believe your sister-in-law probably is in danger because he really believes that she is cheating oh him.  We have no way of knowing what the voices are telling him.  I believe she should go to a shelter and also contact her local mental health clinic.  They will advise her how to get him evaluated safely.
Paranoid personality or paranoid schizophrenia have the worst prognosis.  Perhaps because the inflicted refuse to take meds because they don't think they need them or because they are suspicious of what the meds are, etc.  You may need to take her by the hand and lead her to help.
This has nothing to do with their religious belief system.  Also church counselors are not able to help with this serious illness.  He needs psychiatric help and she needs a safe environment.
Pat


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## pjrose (Sep 8, 2011)

scrapngen said:


> Just for clarity, pj  :
> Actually, Ron Parise  said that about not leaving if it was another kind of illness.
> 
> Personally, I (scrappy) believe in marriage as a committed union of two people, and while I think it is "in sickness and in health" I do NOT believe that one should feel obligated to stay if anyone's welfare is at risk. This holds especially true for cases where it is a child being abused, IMO. (not that this applies here)
> ...



Whoops - sorry for the incorrect attribution.  I agree that she should not feel OBLIGATED to stay...but I'd still suggest TRYING to do something to help him.  The fact that he DID go to counseling before suggests that he might.  He wouldn't for himself, cause he doesn't think anything is wrong, but might to help her or their marriage.  

However, if she feels at all in danger, she should boogie out of there and communicate with him only at a safe distance.  Perhaps she could get her bank to transfer her to a different branch and keep that hidden so he can't find her?


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## Tia (Sep 8, 2011)

My neighbor had gone to marriage counseling had things get worse after each session because she's talk about the problems as she saw them. Not all counselors are equal and many don't have a clue about dealing with domestic violence. The neighbors spouse told her because he was bipolar she had to stay with him as it was an illness, he told their teenage kids this too which made it harder.


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## BevL (Sep 8, 2011)

Who knows how effective the counsellor was.  The OP described has a semi-professional church member.

Not going to go there but that raises serious red flags for me and that's based on very personal experience.

Mental health issues are not like dealing with cancer or diabetes or something.  With cancer, there is an X-ray, blood tests that prove the patient is sick.  There may be bumps along the way but usually, the patient and their caregiver are at least in the same book, if not on the same page.  

So many times with mental health issues, they're convinced they're perfectly fine and it's the rest of the world that's slightly off centre.  And that the people who love them most are conspiring against them by suggesting that they need some help.

You cannot assist someone when you're struggling to survive yourself.


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## Rose Pink (Sep 8, 2011)

stugy said:


> Here is my retired social worker opinion. This man is most definitely mentally ill, probably paranoid, possibly schizophrenic. He will not understand any attemps to help him by suggesting counseling. He does not think he is sick. He may well be hearing voices that incite his delusions.
> I believe your sister-in-law probably is in danger because he really believes that she is cheating oh him. We have no way of knowing what the voices are telling him. I believe she should go to a shelter and also contact her local mental health clinic. They will advise her how to get him evaluated safely.
> Paranoid personality or paranoid schizophrenia have the worst prognosis. Perhaps because the inflicted refuse to take meds because they don't think they need them or because they are suspicious of what the meds are, etc. You may need to take her by the hand and lead her to help.
> This has nothing to do with their religious belief system. Also church counselors are not able to help with this serious illness. He needs psychiatric help and she needs a safe environment.
> Pat


I agree with this assessment.  The man is ill.  He almost surely will not see that he is ill.  This puts the wife at risk of being killed.  She needs an exit strategy and the sooner the better.

Problem for the wife is that a person feels more comfortable with the "devil you know' rather than the "devil you don't know."  IOW, no matter how miserable you may be, change can be even scarier.  

She's been with him for 30 years, raised three children with him, etc.  It can be very difficult to just pick up and leave.  Yet, if she does not, then he may kill her.

Have other family members or friends or his co-workers noticed his problems?


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## Rose Pink (Sep 8, 2011)

*A Beautiful Mind*

Read the book or watch the movie.


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## JanT (Sep 8, 2011)

Adriana,

When you say that he "imagines" things like hair in the bathtub or that someone has used his shorts, I'm not sure that you mean that he literally imagines them.  Does he actually imagine them, i.e., he truly believes he can see the hair or is he just screaming and taunting her by saying something like, "WHERE DID THAT HAIR IN THE BATHTUB COME FROM??  I KNOW someone was here.  They used my shorts!!"  What EXACTLY does he actually see in his own mind or is he just accusing her of things when he's in a jealous frenzy that he KNOWS are not there but because he's in that frenzy?  There's a huge difference between if he actually believes he sees these things and if he's just making this stuff up because he's taking his insane jealousy out on her.  

I was in a relationship for 9 years with a guy who constantly accused me of cheating on him.  I wasn't but he was convinced that I was, and would, cheat on him.  He made my life a living hell and why I stayed for 9 years is beyond me.  If I was with him out in public I had better be looking down the entire time.  If I turned my head to look at ANYTHING where a man might be standing, I was, or had, or was going to, hop in bed with him.  He treated me mostly like crap for the entire 9 years we were together and used to do many of the things you say are happening to your sister-in-law.  He would show up announced at my work or watch me through the windows to see what I was doing.  I was so humiliated when my boss took me aside one time and said, "Hey...."Bob" is outside watching through the window." When I headed towards the door to confront him, he took off in a hurry thinking I wouldn't catch him.  He snooped through my things at home, listened in on my phone calls.  It went on and on.  If technology had been a little more savvy so many years ago and he had been a little brighter, I'm sure he would have placed a tracking system on my car, bugged the house, etc.  As it was, he did enough damage to me emotionally and physically to make me devoid of trust.

And yes, he also drank.  Not an every day drinker but when he drank, he DRANK!!!  Enormous amounts - I always used to think someday he might drink himself to death.  And when he drank, he was at his worst.

I left him several times but he always lured me back, telling me he would change, things would change, etc.  Why did I believe him?  Because he had beaten me down so bad emotionally that I guess I didn't think I deserved any better.  When I think back on that time in my life, I ask myself over and over, "WHY????  Why did I ever get involved with him?  Why did I stay in that situation?"  I have no answers and am ashamed that I let someone put me through that.  I can't even believe that I'm writing this all here but if it helps your sister-in-law then the embarrassment will be worth it.  After 9 years I finally walked away and he harassed me for awhile.  Finally, I told him if he ever called or came near me again it would be the last time he did anything again.  Threat?  No.  Promise?  Yes.  Because I would have rather served time in prison than live in the prison I was in.  He knew I was serious and he left me alone after that.  I was lucky - he wasn't as violent at your SIL's husband.  He obviously is literally insane with jealousy and who knows what else.  

The only good thing that came out of that relationship is that the freakin' loon paid for my daughter's braces (presumably out of guilt for treating me like crap) and that being with him made me realize the difference between a horrible man and a great one.  When I met my husband, I was floored that anyone would be that good to me.  It took me a long time to trust him but he has been the hugest blessing in my life.  I love him tremendously and thank God for him every day.  

You tell your sister-in-law that men like her husband NEVER change.  He might change for a little while but it will only be to lure her back into a false sense of security.  He has major issues (and perhaps he is mentally ill) and he will beat her down until she doesn't even know who she is anymore.  Actually, my guess is that has already happened.  Is he mentally ill?  Well, my guess is not in the sense that some people think he is, i.e., schizophrenia.  I think he's an insecure, jealous maniac to be certain.  Bi-polar perhaps.  Or perhaps he does have some mental illness.  It doesn't mean she has to stay with him.

She is in serious danger, Adriana and if she wants any kind of life of her own, she is going to have to walk away from the one she has now.  Much like disappearing in the federal witness protection program.  Restraining order?  They are a joke.  A man like her husband will walk right through that restraining order and kill her.  

She is going to have to make her own decision.  The more you try to tell her to leave him, the more she is going to fight against leaving him.  You said she feels badly because he's so tortured.  Listen, the guy has to take responsibility for himself.  She cannot control his feelings.  He could go to counseling for the next 30 years and he will NEVER get that jealous rage under control.  She needs to get out and get out now before he seriously hurts or even kills her.  It sounds like everything is escalating now that the kids are gone.  But, only SHE can make that decision.  You can listen but you're doing her no favors.  Help her formulate a plan to disappear when she's made up her mind.  However, be prepared that she may go back even if she does leave him.  

You tell your sweet SIL that being a Christian doesn't mean you have to keep "turning the other cheek" when someone is a real threat to your very life.  God would never expect one of His precious children to live under the circumstances your SIL has.  There are limits to what He expects of us.

Much love, my friend!

Jan


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## Rose Pink (Sep 8, 2011)

*The Gift of Fear*

by Gavin deBecker. A valuable book.

Here is an on-line tool to assess risk:
http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/MOSAIC-Gavin-de-Beckers-Online-Threat-Assessment-Tool

Don't watch that much Oprah.  Didn't know she recommended him.  Glad she has made this available.


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## ada903 (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank you all for the wonderful lines and the advice and thoughts!  I just got home and was able to read all the feedback, and I am once again overwhelmed with the thought and care you guys put in, and all the personal sharing.  Jan, you never cease to amaze me!  I am so happy you became the person and woman you are today, whatever nightmares you defeated to be here today, and so glad to have met you!

Like I said, my sister in law is reading this thread from work every day, and she really needs to hear everything that has been said.  I hope it helps her become aware of the danger she may be in, make her think of what she needs to do next, and finally value herself and think of herself too, not just him.  She has family that loves her and will provide support, including a place to stay and help to transition as needed.

What I hear from you all is what I guessed - that he will not change.  As much as I believe God can make miracles happen, there is not much chance in this situation.  If this is a mental illness, it will not go away, and if it is pure evil, it has been too long now to keep trying to turn it around.

Jan - he will see something real, like a hair in the bathtub, and imagine it belongs to some man that came to the house in his absence.  Or the other day he saw a weird cut into the salami in the fridge and he said it looks like someone took a bite out of it, and immediately inferred it was her lover.  He imagines stories of her cheating all day long, and finds all sorts of "cues" to support those stories.

He has been pushing her hard to "confess" - obsessively insisting that she should just admit it.  To me that is just another sign things are precipitating - escalating.  Last night he woke up at 1 am and left "early" to work.  I am worried the situation is worsening, and I think she should get out of it sooner than later.


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## Passepartout (Sep 8, 2011)

This is the type of creep that would attach a tracking device to her car. She should drop by a trusted mechanic and have them put it on a lift and look around under it. If one is there it will be pretty easy to spot. Put it on a handy garbage truck.

Jim


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## ada903 (Sep 8, 2011)

She already found recording devices multiple times, last time it was this past weekend when she wanted to change the bedding and shifted the mattress!  



Passepartout said:


> This is the type of creep that would attach a tracking device to her car. She should drop by a trusted mechanic and have them put it on a lift and look around under it. If one is there it will be pretty easy to spot. Put it on a handy garbage truck.
> 
> Jim


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## ada903 (Sep 8, 2011)

Saw it - awesome movie.  I should watch it again!



Rose Pink said:


> Read the book or watch the movie.


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## ronparise (Sep 8, 2011)

scrapngen said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are actually advising the woman to escalate a dangerous situation by seeking out another man????? Let's get two people in danger, not just one....:annoyed:
> 
> PLEASE, OP, whatever you do, do not suggest this to your SIL, unless you truly do not care for her.
> 
> BTW, To me, this doesn't make you, Ron,  appear "an insensitive pig" but certainly makes one question your advice or understanding of a volatile situation. (a huge understatement here)



I will correct you ...I didnt advise anything...I simply presented options and suggested (if you read my whole post) that the ops sister in law will probably treat her husband the same way I would treat a sick spouse and that is with loving care and compassion.


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## Talent312 (Sep 8, 2011)

In most, if not all, states there is a proceeding available thru the Clerk of Court or Court Services for an ex parte (one-sided) court-order for a 72-hour involuntary examination in a mental-health facility, usually at the local mental health agency. Its not a full-blown commitment, but rather designed to get a person evaluated and on medication, under court supervision.

But judges are reluctant to grant such petititons unless the petitioner can show that the risk of harm to the respondent or others is not theoretical, but imminent. That usually requires a description of several recent acts which shows that something serious will happen, unless the court acts.

Clearly, the guy needs to be under the care of a psychiatrist. I suggest that she make an appointment and ask him to join her. But if he won't go, she should go herself and discuss the options available to her.

-------------------------
That said, the issue of her personal safety should not be ignored. I would urge her to contact the local shelter for abused spouses... in our area its called "Peaceful Paths"... and seek their advice and assistance.


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## MOXJO7282 (Sep 9, 2011)

Its so  sad when  a woman can't/won't get out of a destructive relationship. 

I know one such woman who is totally amazing in every way and she has endured her relationship for years I guess for the kids sake.

She has been 110% committed and the perfect mother/wife to her family and her husband while the husband maybe was pulling 20% of his weight. She worked harder, did everything around the house and with the kids. He wasn't physically or mentally abusive, but was basically a narssis, lazy and took her for granted.

This girl when she was young had guys around the block wanting to take care of her but she fell for this pretty boy and now is really regretting it.

She is always complaining to us and she sees how happy my wife and I are and she always tells my wife how lucky we are. 

I have a special relationship with this woman and have been telling her for years to leave this guy even before the kids because he was always a slacker but she just never would even though she said she wanted to. I never understood why.


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## CarolF (Sep 9, 2011)

ada903 said:


> He has been pushing her hard to "confess" - obsessively insisting that she should just admit it.  To me that is just another sign things are precipitating - escalating.  Last night he woke up at 1 am and left "early" to work.  I am worried the situation is worsening, and I think she should get out of it sooner than later.



I agree.  Does she need you to organise help for her?  As I said before, get Domestic Violence Services help, they can manage her initial safety needs.  You said the children are grown but are they safe enough?  Would it be helpful to let her manager at work know the situation?


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## glypnirsgirl (Sep 9, 2011)

Passepartout said:


> This is the type of creep that would attach a tracking device to her car. She should drop by a trusted mechanic and have them put it on a lift and look around under it. If one is there it will be pretty easy to spot. Put it on a handy garbage truck.
> 
> Jim



When I had heavy machinery, I had all of them outfitted with Lo-Jacks so I could track them. Instead of installing them under the vehicle/machine, the place that I used took off the front passenger door pillar (the thing between the windshield and the side window) and mounted it there. It was an almost un-detectable spot. 

elaine


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## ada903 (Sep 9, 2011)

Thanks all again - I work for the county with mental health and substance abuse programs among other things, so I am thinking to talk with a few professionals as well in search for resources and advice.


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## GeraldineT (Sep 9, 2011)

He obviously suffers from some sort of paranoid delusions perhaps linked to something in his own life.  Often times a small thinkg like a parent cheating on another manifests itself over years and a small thing spirals out of control.  The longer that the paranoia is left untreated the worse it is and the harder it is to treat.  

The thing is that it has gone untreated for so long that he has come to believe these things as real.  Sitting with a counselor once a week for an hour will do nothing.  He needs real help and the only way he will get it is voluntarily.  To try to have him"committed" is next to impossible unless he is physically abusing her or has committed a crime.  

She is doing nothing wrong and nothing she will say or do will prove him wrong.  She can give in to his whims and have nanny cams installed and he will acuse her of having sex out in the yard or in the car.  I do think that if she does leave him he may stalk her as he will most likely think she is leaving for another man and things could turn ugly.  

I wish I had some great advice.  i would suggest that she get herself some counseling and also talk to someone in the mental health department of her county as well as a detective.  If nothing else it will dpocument what is going on so that down the road if there are issues there is a history.  

Good luck.  Prayers for your sister in law and family.


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## ada903 (Sep 9, 2011)

Thank you Geraldine, your summary is right to the point.  It is a delicate and sad situation.


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## Tia (Sep 9, 2011)

Heard that sometimes it takes some women up to 7 times to finally permanently leave an abusive relationship if they ever do.


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## spirits (Sep 9, 2011)

*A solution that may work- if she wants what they have*

I need to respect the privacy of the people involved here but my heart goes out to this woman and anyone who lives in the crazytown world of alcoholism.  Please encourage her to search out an Ananon group in her area.  If she is in a small town there is help on line.  
This group IS NOT a religious group but a spiritual group.  All are welcome and the only requirement is that alcohol has made your life unmanagable.  There she will find understanding and the help that she needs to save HERSELF.  She will learn about the disease of alcoholism, how she cannot control the alcoholic but can only help herself.  In this way she will be able to help the alcoholic without further damage to herself.  She will learn that the disease is progressive, and her situation can only get worse.
I am a trained conflict resolution mediator besides having worked with addicted children.  Nothing prepared me for the emotional destruction of living with an alcoholic, whether a parent, child, sibling or spouse.  It is only when a kind friend told me about Alanon that I began to get help for myself.  
I have been a member of Alanon for two years and believe the reason it works is that noone tells you what to do. They share their stories and from those pieces you forge YOUR own recovery.  Believe me she is sick in her own way living with the disease and she will need to work on her recovery. 
I wish her the best and hope she finds serenity.


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## isisdave (Sep 9, 2011)

Pat (stugy) has this exactly right.  It's mental illness. And I agree with other opinions above that mental illness in one's partner deserves devotion just like cancer would.  The difference here is that there is risk to her, and that the treatment should have started long, long ago.

If this has really been going on for 20 years, it's hard to believe that it's limited to the one paranoid delusion, or to just his wife.  Surely someone has noticed other kinds of irrational suspicion?  Or weird behavior? It must be hard to hold down a job if ideas like this pop out.

How old is the man now?  A lot of this kind of thing starts around the late teens, and a lot starts past 60, but this sounds like it's in between those. Often these can be related to brain tumors, but that wouldn't have been going on since the 1990s and not be diagnosed.

I'd start with the man's doctor, assuming they see each other much.


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## Phydeaux (Sep 9, 2011)

OP,

You've been given some very good advice, with only one exceptipon, above. The one about going out and actually cheating  

Now, you came here for advice. My only hope is that you will ACT on it.

Help your SIL. She is probably in danger. but don't delay. Act on it immediately.


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## ada903 (Sep 9, 2011)

Thanks all again.  

To answer the question above, they are in their mid 50's.

I am doing all I can to convince her to be proactive about the situation and seek help outside.  She still thinks that some sort of change in her behavior will help fix him, sometimes I think she underestimates the depth of his issues.  I am working to convince her to come out of the passive state and seek out support, resources, and treatment.

I spoke with our Mental Health and Domestic Violence Court coordinator (it's funny in my job I actually manage a county fund that pays for treatment for mental health and substance abuse), and I am speaking with some of our providers to seek resources.  I would like to set up appointments and I am willing to go with her to YWCA, as well as a local provider that specializes in treatment for mental health and alcohol addiction - multiple diagnoses.  I will do my best to convince her, but I can't force her, all I can do is try.

I already found an Al-anon group meeting in our city and will aim to take her to one next week, this sounds like a wonderful idea.  I would not mind going myself - I consider my dad addicted to alcohol, and I could use that group resource as well.


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## vacationhopeful (Sep 9, 2011)

*My story - short version of 4 years of trying to be safe ...*

Alcoholism is not just limited to bums on the street. Many are functional for a good bit of their adult lives. ....
But 30 years later, I still fear he may one day show up on my door step or be passed out on my bed. And I tell myself, it is much more likely he drank too much hard stuff and his liver did him in. Then I turn my alarm system on and go to sleep.


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## ada903 (Sep 9, 2011)

Linda, what a story.  Gave me goose bumps reading it!  I don't even know what to say in response - other than thanking you for sharing such an intimate and life twisting experience! My sister in law read it too - she just left my house, she printed and read all the threads at my house in detail.

Many hugs and thanks to all of you who opened up with similar experiences, great advice and genuine concern!


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## Rose Pink (Sep 10, 2011)

ada903 said:


> ...My sister in law ... just left my house, she printed and read all the threads at my house in detail....


I hope she doesn't decide to share this with her husband or leave it where he could find it. It will only fuel his paranoia and might very well escalate to violence. 

I once had a paranoid neighbor. To make a long and sad story short, that is where I developed the motto "you can't reason with a crazy person."

No matter how nice, how gentle, how reasonable and caring you may be, it won't fix the situation. It won't. I once believed that if you were just nice enough, people would be nice back. Not so when you are dealing with mental illness, certain brain injuries (and I'd put alcoholism into that category), and people who are just plain evil.


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## ada903 (Sep 10, 2011)

I agree.  

No, she did not even want to carry with her the printouts of the thread - she left them at our house.



Rose Pink said:


> I hope she doesn't decide to share this with her husband or leave it where he could find it. It will only fuel his paranoia and might very well escalate to violence.
> 
> I once had a paranoid neighbor. To make a long and sad story short, that is where I developed the motto "you can't reason with a crazy person."
> 
> No matter how nice, how gentle, how reasonable and caring you may be, it won't fix the situation. It won't. I once believed that if you were just nice enough, people would be nice back. Not so when you are dealing with mental illness, certain brain injuries (and I'd put alcoholism into that category), and people who are just plain evil.


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## scrapngen (Sep 10, 2011)

I hope after reading these, your SIL will realise that she is not living in a "normal" situation, and is able to work toward getting the help she needs.   And I am so amazed by those who are able to share their stories to help her!

Prayers for you all as you and she work through this...


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## ada903 (Sep 10, 2011)

Thank you  



scrapngen said:


> I hope after reading these, your SIL will realise that she is not living in a "normal" situation, and is able to work toward getting the help she needs.   And I am so amazed by those who are able to share their stories to help her!
> 
> Prayers for you all as you and she work through this...


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## Jennie (Sep 12, 2011)

Going to Al Anon meetings is an okay first step. But the problem needs much more serious attention. 

I was a Probation Officer in the New York City Courts for over 30 years, and spent the last five years of my career supervising a Domestic Violence Unit that was formed after the OJ Simpson case sparked awareness and outrage throughout the country. 

Police, probation and parole officers, and judges received special training and resources (with some new federal funding) to understand and effectively deal with DV cases. I would urge you and your SIL to find out if your local court has a DV unit.  If so, that would be the best place to begin your inquiry into what options and services are available in your community. They have specialized, well trained, highly motivated and compasionate professionals, most of whom have volunteered for this difficult assignment, often times because they or a close friend or relative were victims themselves at one time. 

In NYC, certain judges with extensive special training, interest, and commitment are chosen to handle only DV cases. With a much smaller workload, and guided by recommendations and reports from specially trained counselors, attorneys, police officers and/or outside agencies, they can order physical and/or psychiatric evaluations, require the abuser to receive recommended treatment, issue an Order of Protection, and if applicable, warn the abuser that he will be sent to jail if he fails to cooperate. I have seen judges order a defendant to be remanded (sent to jail) for not complying. Most times the offender is led to believe that he will be detained for a week or two but he will actually be brought back to courtroom a few hours later and be offered "one last chance" to comply. 

If the accused is found to be in need of psychiatric treatment or medication and/or anger management or alcohol or substance abuse treatment, etc...he will be ordered to comply and will usually be told that the case will be dismissed if he successfully completes what is ordered and does not engage in any further abusive behavior toward the victim.

It is amazing to see how meek and humble the abuser becomes when he knows that the Judge will be monitoring his behavior and has the power to send him to jail or prison if he fails to sucessfully comply with the treatment plan. And that his wife now possesses a high priority Order of Protection that will bring multiple police cars screeching to their home within minutes of a phone call to a special number. 

Meanwhile your SIL will also be offered supportive counseling re: her options, including a viable escape/relocation plan if the danger is too great for her to remain living in the same household at that time. There are several "safe houses" in NYC where a victim can stay until they see if the treatment her abuser receives is alleviating the danger. 

The above approach has _greatly_ reduced the number of domestic violence HOMICIDE cases occurring in NYC each year. HOMICIDE is a very real possibility that you and SIL must seriously consider and avert.

Best of luck...

(Note: Because the current discussion is about a female victim, I've used she/her in this post. But of course there are cases where the victim is a male). _


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## ada903 (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks Jennie! I already spoke with out DV Court coordinator, I work with her at the county and actually know her very well - she is also the Mental Health coordinator, and she pointed me to specialized treatment resources.  He has never been physically aggressive so for now he is not eligible for the criminal justice system, but we did get valuable info about treatment providers specialized in DV, Mental Health and Substance Abuse addictions.  Now if I can only get her to go - she is still passive about the situation.  She decided to change behavior by not allowing him to control her, while remaining with him in the house, which I think is a bad idea, she will just make him more angry and more dangerous.



Jennie said:


> Going to Al Anon meetings is an okay first step. But the problem needs much more serious attention.
> 
> I was a Probation Officer in the New York City Courts for over 30 years, and spent the last five years of my career supervising a Domestic Violence Unit that was formed after the OJ Simpson case sparked awareness and outrage throughout the country.
> 
> ...


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## vacationhopeful (Sep 12, 2011)

loafingcactus said:


> If she wants to leave she will, if she doesn't she won't.  You can't make it happen.  Also, the more you listen the more you "let out the steam" which contributes to the situation continuing through several different pathways (another being that listening without doing anything makes it seem more rather than less normal).  "If you want to leave I will help you, but otherwise we won't be talking about it.". You can also call the police yourself if you have an evidence of abuse, but unfortunately that can increase the danger if she won't go...



Going back to this post, I want you to re-read it. Her response of "I won't be a door-mat and I am going to stay, trying to change his behavior" will put you into the enabler role for her "_pity party_". She becomes the center of attention (from you), justifing her staying to "fix" him, and possibly putting you in danger from him (after all, you are telling her what to do). 

This is HER problem, too. If he was a spouse-cheating lech with numerous sexual liasons, what would you or her do? I know friends who have littered the front yard with his clothes, changed the locks, and hired lawyers to divorice the sleaze. BUT the few who don't kick the bed-hopping spouse out, burn out their friends very quickly ... with the stories of "how can I change them".

I bet she uses the line, "IF ONLY he didn't drink (or when he isn't drinking)(or before he drank so much), he is so sweet and kind and good (and he loves me so)". Or I just want him to be like before. Or what will I tell our kids? Or I can't live without him. Or he is such a part of me. Or no one will take care of him and he will die (or kill himself).

You are not helping her. She needs to help herself and change herself. She needs to SAVE herself and only she can .... and it will be very hard work for her.


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## ada903 (Sep 12, 2011)

Linda, thanks, great points.  I went out and collected info on how to get help, and provided her with the reasons and means to get help, and offered to go with her when/where needed.  But you are right - she needs to want to help herself, and I won't burn myself out by listening if she refuses help.  Thanks for pointing this out!


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## Rose Pink (Sep 12, 2011)

In his book "The Gift of Fear," Gavin DeBekker states that the first time a woman is abused she is a victim.  The second time, she is a volunteer.  IOW, if she doesn't get out she is going to be hurt again and only she can make the decision to get herself out.

I am an advocate of using strong words in a soft voice.  (Wish I could master that myself  .)

The next time she complains to you, you can say, "well, you volunteered for it."  Sometimes using such language is enough to shake up their brains a bit and make them see things in a different way.  Another phrase is "you are going to die.  I will miss you."  

Ada, you've been a good friend.  You've done the homework for her and provided the information to guide her.  Now, it is time to take care of yourself.  Set boundaries for what you will/will not tolerate in terms of conversation and intervention.  If she keeps coming to you, but is unwilling to take action, you will need a way to curb the conversation (if you so choose).  Find one or two phrases you can use and then use them, and only them.  She will come to understand your boundaries.


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## Tia (Sep 12, 2011)

Never been physically aggressive as far as she is saying anyway, never blocked a door, hit a wall, or thrown something past her head? I found my neighbor victim withheld many of the details. Neighbor would  downplay and excuse it, even still blames his parents more then her x for his behavior. To him she'd try and explain/reason her actions which did not matter to him. Emotional abuse is harder to overcome as the scares are invisible, where physical wounds heal.  This is scary. 



ada903 said:


> ... He has never been physically aggressive so for now he is not eligible for the criminal justice system, but we did get valuable info about treatment providers specialized in DV, Mental Health and Substance Abuse addictions.  Now if I can only get her to go - she is still passive about the situation.  She decided to change behavior by not allowing him to control her, while remaining with him in the house, which I think is a bad idea, she will just make him more angry and more dangerous.


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## Mel (Sep 12, 2011)

I agree with Linda.  The only way he is going to change is if her agrees there is a problem (of his making), and he wants to change.  While the counselor they've already seen might not be the best for this circumstance, he has already seen her, and does not agree he has a problem (he sees this a her problem, not his, so she is the one who needs to change, in his eyes).

I had a neighbor who kept refusing to leave "for the sake of the kids" who she thought didn't know anything, and because she loved him.  She not only ended up with her own emotional scars, but her daughters did as well.  What finally got them both to change was when the oldest managed to talk to the social worker without her present.  The kids were placed in foster care, and the older never returned to her - she now lives with the formerly abusive father, who cleaned himself up after realizing his daughter was willing to give up everything.

If you love something, set it free... she needs for him to understand there is a problem, and the ball is in his court.  If she loves him, she needs to force the issue.


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## spirits (Sep 12, 2011)

*Been there done that*

If you love something, set it free... she needs for him to understand there is a problem, and the ball is in his court. If she loves him, she needs to force the issue.

Truer words never spoken. For those who have a caretaking personality it is very difficult for us to fathom how twisted a former loving, capable person has become.  They are very good at manipulating the truth so the other person doubts their own sanity.  Looking after yourself is a loving action not a selfish one.  She needs to look after herself first.  There is help for him but she needs help more than he does at this point.


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## vacationhopeful (Sep 12, 2011)

*The term is co-dependants.* As sick as it sounds, both need the relationship as it is right now. It is how they think and act separately & together - both clinging to each other and their roles. It has been going on for 30 years. This is who they are, both as a couple and as separate, pitiful victims (one is the spouse of a drunk and the other is the drunk).

Walk away. She has the contacts and the info. She can find Al-Anon in the phone book. She knows what a lawyer is. She has adult daughters or shelters to stay at. She truly needs to understand talk is NOT ACTION to change herself. And she must change herself. She is the only one who can change herself. 

A trained counselor will recognize the manipulative behavior far, far better than you and will help her develop more fully as a person. But it will take considerable effort and time; there will be setbacks; most people quit as that is far easier to quit than enduring the effort, pain and reflection needed to change.


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## Rob&Carol Q (Sep 12, 2011)

holy moly...

got nothing to add beyond thoughts and prayers.  That, and it's not going to get better.

Good luck to all involved and it's good that she has someone to talk to...



while she still can.


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## NWL (Sep 12, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> *....Walk away......*


*

While I agree it's the SIL's responsibility to take the proper steps to correct her situation, having her friends and relatives walk away and leave her alone will make her feel like cr_p and that won't help.  She needs to know that there is someone she can talk it all out with.  Yes, she needs to do the work herself, but part of the process of getting there is being able to talk to people she trusts.  

I've been there and I won the battle.

Cheers!*


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## vacationhopeful (Sep 12, 2011)

NWL said:


> While I agree it's the SIL's responsibility to take the proper steps to correct her situation, having her friends and relatives walk away and leave her alone will make her feel like cr_p and that won't help.  She needs to know that there is someone she can talk it all out with.  Yes, she needs to do the work herself, but part of the process of getting there is being able to talk to people she trusts.



She needs a professional to work thru her feelings and issues. Elaine has shown interest and consulted with her professional co-workers and gotten references. SIL has decided to "not go that route" which is seeking professional help for herself. That is SIL's plan ... Elaine would be putting herself and her home & family in the middle of two adults' lives by continuing to advocate an opposing opinion. Elaine does NOT need a daily play-by-play of how miserable SIL is or what a jerk the husband is. And SIL does have 3 adult daughters to consult and talk to.

I know if I ask for advice from a friend and I disregard it, I really find they have very little to say other than, "what did I tell you?' or "does that truly surprise you?" or "learn anything?" ... And those comments don't make me feel any better either.


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## ada903 (Sep 12, 2011)

Unfortunately as I just heard from her daughter in law, she has just had another discussion with him in which they both agreed to make it work out.  I think she is naive, and also complacent in the situation, and refuses to understand that he needs treatment - and so does she.  I give her couple of months and things will be awful again.  However, all I can do is offer advice when asked for, I am not going to be proactive about the situation.  No wonder she has not called me in a few days, she knows she is wrong and won't find any comfort and agreement from me.


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## Rose Pink (Sep 12, 2011)

ada903 said:


> ..I am not going to be proactive about the situation. No wonder she has not called me in a few days, she knows she is wrong and won't find any comfort and agreement from me.


Good for you!  Stay strong.


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## NWL (Sep 12, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> She needs a professional to work thru her feelings and issues. Elaine has shown interest and consulted with her professional co-workers and gotten references. SIL has decided to "not go that route" which is seeking professional help for herself. That is SIL's plan ... Elaine would be putting herself and her home & family in the middle of two adults' lives by continuing to advocate an opposing opinion. Elaine does NOT need a daily play-by-play of how miserable SIL is or what a jerk the husband is. And SIL does have 3 adult daughters to consult and talk to.
> 
> I know if I ask for advice from a friend and I disregard it, I really find they have very little to say other than, "what did I tell you?' or "does that truly surprise you?" or "learn anything?" ... And those comments don't make me feel any better either.





ada903 said:


> Unfortunately as I just heard from her daughter in law, she has just had another discussion with him in which they both agreed to make it work out.  I think she is naive, and also complacent in the situation, and refuses to understand that he needs treatment - and so does she.  I give her couple of months and things will be awful again.  However, all I can do is offer advice when asked for, I am not going to be proactive about the situation.  No wonder she has not called me in a few days, she knows she is wrong and won't find any comfort and agreement from me.





Rose Pink said:


> Good for you!  Stay strong.



I never said anyone has to solve her problems for her.  I simply stated if she thinks no one will listen, she won't move forward.  It's obvious everyone here feels she needs to move forward and remove herself from her situation.  I definitely agree with that as well.  I know from experience that a sympathetic ear to bounce ideas and possible solutions off of is very much appreciated.  She may not be moving forward at the speed you all think she should, but that does not mean she will never get there.  

Don't enable her, but don't abandon her.  That's all I'm saying.

Cheers!


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## b2bailey (Sep 12, 2011)

*I thought I was a victim...*

Years later, when I look back at that painful relationship, I see that I was an accomplice. By the Grace of God I survived and left. But it took me many years for a variety of reasons. Many times I stayed thinking it was best for my two children. Now they tell me it was a big mistake.

As I was reading this, I am wondering who is the 'blood relative' in this relationship. Not that it matters, just curious if there are others that can intervene.

As a Christian, I was bound by 'in sickness and in health' -- or so I thought. Then I realized that if my spouse had tuberculosis and wouldn't get help, I'd have to leave rather than endanger my own life.

A very sad and painful life.


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## Travelclam (Sep 12, 2011)

*where are the 3 adult children fit in this?*

maybe i am from a complete different world and culture, but this lady and her husband have 3 children together.  The 3 children are now grown up and of majority age and independent.  Unless the husband's behaviours over the past many years have been all done behind the backs of the children, would there not be signs that the father is not treating the mother right?  Did this lady discuss her issues/problems with her own children and see if they can help convince their father to seek help first??  

I mean, if my father was abusive towards my mother verbally/emotionally/physically, my sibling and I would certainly take my mother's side and tell my father to seek help or mom is coming with us and leaving him.  

I know maybe this lady doesn't want the children to be sandwiched in the middle, but if I was one of the kids and something happens to my mom due to my dad's "madness", and my mom never told me about her suffering for years, I would not be too happy about that (about her not telling it to the kids now that the kids are grown up).


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## ada903 (Sep 12, 2011)

The two boys are married, the youngest daughter just moved out a few years ago and she lives with some other girlfriends in rent.  One of the boys and his wife have a baby, and they housed her the first time she left the house (she went back after few weeks).  I spoke with the daughter in law this past weekend, and she confirmed they tried to help her, but she does not seem ready to step forward on her own, and they don't want to get involved anymore.  The other son and his wife are very private, they get together at occasions and that's about it.  I think all three kids are estranged by how their father behaves, and probably disappointed things are not changing.

I will be here to help with advice and resources and referrals to support networks, but just like her daughter in law said to me, she doesn't seem ready - even after all this time - to take real action.


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## Passepartout (Sep 12, 2011)

Old saying: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

Works the same with providing advice for people. All you can do is advise. It's up to the recipient to act on it when (s)he is ready. 

Jim Ricks


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## NWL (Sep 13, 2011)

Passepartout said:


> Old saying: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
> 
> Works the same with providing advice for people. All you can do is advise. It's up to the recipient to act on it when (s)he is ready.
> 
> Jim Ricks



I totally agree with you my friend.  . What I would like to point out is someone in the SIL's position doesn't always need your adivice.  She/He just needs a sounding board.  Someone who will say "I hear you.  Tell me more".  My sister was that person for me.  She never offered advice.  She just listened.  I am very grateful for her support.  The OP's SIL is still capable of reaching the goal everyone here thinks she should.

Dr. Phil solves this problem in less than 60 minutes.  It doesn't work that way in real life. When you've been married for 30 years, the decision to end it, no matter what the situation, is very hard/

Cheers!


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## Kagehitokiri2 (Sep 13, 2011)

intervention?


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## Zac495 (Sep 13, 2011)

A friend of mine was in an abusive relationship like that -though maybe not as bad. She actually had an affair (BAD IDEA) which made things SO much worse. 

She did finally leave, but due to the affair it was more on his terms with him keeping the house and kids.

Regardless, this is no way for a grown woman to live her life. It's true that SHE must be ready to leave, but if she is - and I know she is reading this thread - run away and find a new life. Do not think you're doing something wrong or hurting HIM. He will be "fine." My friend's nut case husband found a new girl - these guys manage to attract someone else to torment. (I'm sure he'll be lovely to her at first - as the son says, "Wait until X meets the real Dad.")

Good luck to both sister and woman in the situation. To the OP (sister) careful yourself! If this guy finds out you helped her or finds this thread, your life could be in danger. Both of you be CAREFUL.

Love,
Ellen


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## Rose Pink (Sep 13, 2011)

NWL said:


> I never said anyone has to solve her problems for her. I simply stated if she thinks no one will listen, she won't move forward. It's obvious everyone here feels she needs to move forward and remove herself from her situation. I definitely agree with that as well. I know from experience that a sympathetic ear to bounce ideas and possible solutions off of is very much appreciated. She may not be moving forward at the speed you all think she should, but that does not mean she will never get there.
> 
> Don't enable her, but don't abandon her. That's all I'm saying.
> 
> Cheers!


NWL, since you quoted my post in your reply, I need you to understand that I never said the OP should not listen.  I only said she needed to take care of herself and not get drawn into something more than she cares to.  Whether or not the SIL is moving forward fast enough was not the topic of my post.  My post, the one you quoted, was only to applaud the OP for drawing her own boundaries.  She can't stay strong enough to be a sounding board for her SIL if she does not have her own boundaries.


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## NWL (Sep 13, 2011)

Rose Pink said:


> NWL, since you quoted my post in your reply, I need you to understand that I never said the OP should not listen.  I only said she needed to take care of herself and not get drawn into something more than she cares to.  Whether or not the SIL is moving forward fast enough was not the topic of my post.  My post, the one you quoted, was only to applaud the OP for drawing her own boundaries.  She can't stay strong enough to be a sounding board for her SIL if she does not have her own boundaries.



Thank you for expanding upon and clarifying your original statement.   

Cheers!


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## ada903 (Sep 13, 2011)

It's not easy to find the right balance.  I do want to be supportive and help, and I would not abandon her, but at the same time I need to keep my own sanity, and not fight the windmills - she needs to be the one who wants to fight for herself.  And I do want to listen, but listening while she is not doing anything to help herself is only going to make her think it's ok to continue to accept being a victim.  As well said above, you are only a victim once.  The second and third times, you are a volunteer.


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## zcrider (Sep 14, 2011)

How was this brought to your attention?  Did the SIL just call you up one day b/c she is scared for her safety or did something in a conversation lead into this confession?  All the posters here have been very conserned for her safety, but I haven't heard you mention it being anything SHE was worried about yet.  Has he threatened her or told her what he is going to do to her if/when he catches her?  If so, what does he threaten?


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## ada903 (Sep 14, 2011)

She was hiding the problems for many years, the family found out finally about a year ago - or maybe six months? I can't remember - when she left him for a few weeks.  She then told all of us what had been happening for years.  She does not seem concerned about her safety.  She is concerned about the way he treats her, living in fear of his reactions and suspicions, and she is tired of the angriness and tension in the house.  But she does not seem to believe he can physically hurt her.

She has not called me once in the past 4 days, ever since she decided they were going to try to work it out - yet again.  I found out from her daughter in law about the decision to "work things out".


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## Tia (Sep 14, 2011)

ada903 said:


> ...  She does not seem concerned about her safety.  She is concerned about the way he treats her, living in fear of his reactions and suspicions, and she is tired of the angriness and tension in the house.  But she does not seem to believe he can physically hurt her.
> 
> She has not called me once in the past 4 days, ever since she decided they were going to try to work it out - yet again.  I found out from her daughter in law about the decision to "work things out".



I don't think they see what others see as they are living in it and are not objective, add denial. They both get something from the dysfunctional relationship, someone already said enabling back aways. My neighbor right out said she was an enabler one time to which I said " that is not a good thing".  

Your SIL will call again, she knows you care.


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