# Worldmark prices way down from last year



## gmarine

Three EBAY auctions ended in the last few days with prices of 42,50 and 57 cents a point. About a year ago around 70 cents was considered a good price. 
Any opinions on why the big drop ?


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## teepeeca

My opinion (no factual knowledge) is because Wyndham took over Worldmark, and now it isn't the "friendly" place it used to be.

Wyndham is putting "their" spin on it.

Tony


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## timeos2

*Degrade resales and watch the values plummet*

If they are pulling the same moves to devalue resales as they have with FSP then this is only the beginning of the price drop. Be prepared for some GREAT resale values and to never buy at retail again.  

The so called brain trust at Wyndham is value challenged at best.


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## spatenfloot

Some auctions may end low due to concerns about the seller or additional fees charged for closing or whatever. I saw one auction asking for the entire 2008 MF amount even though it is only charged quarterly. The reputable resellers still get much higher bids for it.


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## Elan

spatenfloot said:


> Some auctions may end low due to concerns about the seller or additional fees charged for closing or whatever. I saw one auction asking for the entire 2008 MF amount even though it is only charged quarterly. The reputable resellers still get much higher bids for it.



  Agreed.  I've been tracking eBay recently as well, and the volume sellers still seem to be getting .60 to .70 per credit depending on credits banked, anniversary date, etc.   That's not to say that the occasional bargain doesn't sometimes slip by.


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## gmarine

spatenfloot said:


> Some auctions may end low due to concerns about the seller or additional fees charged for closing or whatever. I saw one auction asking for the entire 2008 MF amount even though it is only charged quarterly. The reputable resellers still get much higher bids for it.



These are two sellers with high ratings. There are a bunch of recently completed listings that ended in a 50-55 cent range. When I bought a year ago it was rare to find a listing around 70 cents. Now it looks like 60 cents and under is becoming the norm with deals in the 40s.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=370024133363&_trksid=p3984.cWAT.m240.lVI


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=160208584136&_trksid=p3984.cWAT.m240.lVI


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## LLW

gmarine said:


> Three EBAY auctions ended in the last few days with prices of 42,50 and 57 cents a point. About a year ago around 70 cents was considered a good price.
> Any opinions on why the big drop ?



My opinion: 

1. TravelShare. To potential and existing owners the Wyndham sales force is spinning TravelShare and creating uncertainties at the least. Most new owners are buying TS (=developer), and a lot of upgrades are also going the TS route.

2. In a recessionary climate people are buying developer for easy financing in an attempt to save cash.

That makes typical resale about 60-65 cents (from a reputable reseller) and developer $1.90 (upgrades are cheaper), about a 1 to 3 ratio. If resale drops another 5-10 cents in the next year, for a 6000 account the difference would be about $300-$600. Whether one should buy now or later depends on whether one needs/wants the credits now.


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## LLW

gmarine said:


> These are two sellers with high ratings. There are a bunch of recently completed listings that ended in a 50-55 cent range. When I bought a year ago it was rare to find a listing around 70 cents. Now it looks like 60 cents and under is becoming the norm with deals in the 40s.
> 
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=370024133363&_trksid=p3984.cWAT.m240.lVI
> 
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=160208584136&_trksid=p3984.cWAT.m240.lVI




Note the first one has a closing fee of $299 on top of the $150 transfer fee, and January dues of $106. The second one has an extra $475 closing fee (!), and the January dues.


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## Elan

I think that typically the price quoted for a WM account (on a $/credit basis) is inclusive of all other fees (closing, transfer, back dues) and for a "fully loaded" account -- one that has 2 years worth of banked credits, or 1 year's worth and a very near anniversary.  Not that this changes the fact that prices are indeed dropping, but on a smaller account $400-$500 in fees and being short on banked credits (at a rate of 7c/credit) will change the cost/credit a fair amount.


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## PerryM

*You aren't going to like this answer....*

4 years ago I forecasted that WM resale prices would reach 38¢ based upon the prevailing resale price of 80¢ and the developer’s price of $1.55.  I stand by my prediction.

I’ve followed WM resale prices closely for 4 years and 65¢ has replaced the 80¢ of 4 years ago as a price someone can wait a few weeks and snag.  This is a loss of 19% in 4 years.

But that’s just half the story.  In the mean time the developer has raised their price from $1.55 to $1.95.  If you take that into account then the 80¢ resale price based upon $1.55 developer credits was 52%.  If we use that 52% on $1.95 credits then we should be seeing resale WM credits for $1.01 instead of the 65¢ credits.  *That’s a combined loss of 37% in 4 years.*

At this rate my 38¢ resale credits should be hit in about 3 - 4 years.  

What is causing this loss?  We can only guess but one thing is for certain, the pressure to dump WM credits is greater than the pressure to buy resale credits.

If we want to guess we can blame the following:

1)	The developer’s screwing around with sales gimmicks like Travel Share

2)	The owner’s crying over the wrong owners on the WM BOD (HOA)

3)	The economy

4)	The housing market

5)	Class action lawsuits brought about a few owners who want to get big bucks (for their lawyers)

6)	WM owners who aren’t keeping up with higher credit values and can’t figure out how to make reservations anymore

7)	UFOs

Me, I’m guessing that the reason is fellow WM owners throwing a temper tantrum and wanting to duke it out with the developer.  But that’s just one WM owner’s opinion.  I doubt that anyone can show me some proof that the other contributing factors are worse.

I warned you that you would not like the answer…


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## LLW

PerryM said:


> *4 years ago* I forecasted that WM resale prices would reach 38¢ based upon the prevailing resale price of 80¢ and the developer’s price of $1.55.  I stand by my prediction.....
> 
> Me, I’m guessing that the reason is fellow WM owners throwing a temper tantrum and wanting to duke it out with the developer.  But that’s just one WM owner’s opinion.  I doubt that anyone can show me some proof that the other contributing factors are worse.…




Perry:

"4 years ago" the "fellow WM owners throwing a temper tantrum and wanting to duke it out with the developer" didn't even exist. What reasons did you use for your forecast? Wasn't it how far Fairfield prices had fallen, with Wyndham being the common thread between Worldmark and Fairfield?


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## PerryM

*The history of my prediction...*



LLW said:


> Perry:
> 
> "4 years ago" the "fellow WM owners throwing a temper tantrum and wanting to duke it out with the developer" didn't even exist. What reasons did you use for your forecast? Wasn't it how far Fairfield prices had fallen, with Wyndham being the common thread between Worldmark and Fairfield?



My 38¢ projection was based upon FairField’s (Wyndham now) resale price of about 2.7¢ resale and 11¢ developer (4 years ago).  That ratio of .027/.11 times $1.55 (TrendWest's price back then) =  38¢

The main weapon FF/Wyndham had/has was/is the VIP program.  Since FF and TrendWest (Wyndham now) were subsidiaries of Cendant, (Wyndham now), I reasoned that TrendWest would do the same.  Fast forward 4 years and Wyndham has not introduced anything close to the VIP program.  The Travel Share program isn’t even close to VIP.  I don’t believe that TS has had ANY impact on resale WM credits.  Zero.

So what makes old WM owners want to dump their credits for just about any price?  Dissatisfaction with what they have.  Wyndham just has not been out there killing the WM resale market – I’ve seen NO indications of this.

WM owners, however, are treated to negative horror stories from other WM owners – just drop by WMowners.com and you will see thousands of posts bashing the developer.  This has ramifications that I believe spread out to already dissatisfied owners and causes them to just give up and dump their credits at firesale prices.

Take the simple fact that Wyndham is charging more than 10,000 WM credits for a 2BR red week – that was some sort of Holy Grail that was to last 10,000 years.  Well, Wyndham can only charge $1.95 for the plywood condos that they give WM.  Not a penny more.  The result is that 2BR Red weeks are now 15,000 WM credits and headed higher.  They will go to 20,000 credits.

This is how WM, the Club, works and many stomp their feet and say it’s not right – Wyndham is screwing the WM owners.  That has consequences and I believe we are seeing these consequences in ever lower resale price.

Conclusion:
WM resale credits are dropping like a lead balloon not because of anything Wyndham is doing but fellow WM owners who think they can run the club better.

Words have consequences.


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## LLW

PerryM said:


> *So what makes old WM owners want to dump their credits for just about any price?  Dissatisfaction with what they have.  *Wyndham just has not been out there killing the WM resale market – I’ve seen NO indications of this.
> 
> WM owners, however, are treated to negative horror stories from other WM owners – *just drop by WMowners.com and you will see thousands of posts bashing the developer.*  This has ramifications that I believe spread out to already dissatisfied owners and causes them to just give up and dump their credits at firesale prices.
> 
> Take the simple fact that Wyndham is charging more than 10,000 WM credits for a 2BR red week – that was some sort of Holy Grail that was to last 10,000 years.  Well, Wyndham can only charge $1.95 for the plywood condos that they give WM.  Not a penny more.  The result is that 2BR Red weeks are now 15,000 WM credits and headed higher.  They will go to 20,000 credits.
> 
> This is how WM, the Club, works and many stomp their feet and say it’s not right – Wyndham is screwing the WM owners.  That has consequences and I believe we are seeing these consequences in ever lower resale price.
> 
> Conclusion:
> WM resale credits are dropping like a lead balloon not because of anything Wyndham is doing but fellow WM owners who think they can run the club better.
> 
> Words have consequences.



The Wyndham issues are discussed on the registration-only forums. You can see the discussions because you are registered there. WMO has caught the attention of Wyndham, but it only has 5,600 registered users, and only 200 of them visit every day. That's about 0.08% of Worldmark owners!  

What's more, they are so happy with their Worldmark that they constantly talk about how happy they are with Worldmark, on the non-registration forums. It's Wyndham they are not happy about. Many are buying more credits, not dumping them, including myself. Putting the blame on WMO is probably like blaming TUG for the timeshare industries' woes, because TUG talks about them.


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## bccash63

*Wyndham Bay Club 2*

oops!! meant to start a new thread


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## PerryM

LLW said:


> The Wyndham issues are discussed on the registration-only forums. You can see the discussions because you are registered there. WMO has caught the attention of Wyndham, but it only has 5,600 registered users, and only 200 of them visit every day. That's about 0.08% of Worldmark owners!
> 
> What's more, they are so happy with their Worldmark that they constantly talk about how happy they are with Worldmark, on the non-registration forums. It's Wyndham they are not happy about. Many are buying more credits, not dumping them, including myself. Putting the blame on WMO is probably like blaming TUG for the timeshare industries' woes, because TUG talks about them.




There's a whole section dedicated to WM BOD elections where an outsider has access to 4,169 posts and 1,177 posts in asking candidates questions.  Just about every post bashes Wyndham - I think that's quite enough posts to put the fear of god into some poor WM owner or potential owner that WM is about to implode.

The developer, on the other hand, has nothing but glowing remarks about WM.  Hundreds of folks a day go thru the sales tours and I doubt that even ONE negative topic is brought up.

When WM owners bash the developer, Wyndham, that criticism carries over to WorldMark by Wyndham - they just don't see the difference.

But, don't take my word for it, read a couple of thousand posts on WMowners.com and see how pumped up you are to become an owner.  The exact opposite probably happens - owners who probably had no hostile feelings towards Wyndham are now mad as hell and might just say screw it, I'll get out of this mess and dump the WM credits at any price.

P.S.
This has been going on for 3 years over there - daily, hourly, and even minutely bashing of the developer and for what?  They have not won a seat on the WM BOD - and the drum beat has started on a 4th year.  This is Einstein's definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.


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## Pit

PerryM said:


> The result is that 2BR Red weeks are now 15,000 WM credits and headed higher.  They will go to 20,000 credits.



Isn't this a more likely, and logical, explanation for the drop in prices? I don't know, but it sounds like a genuine devaluation of credits.


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## PerryM

Pit said:


> Isn't this a more likely, and logical, explanation for the drop in prices? I don't know, but it sounds like a genuine devaluation of credits.




It's easy to use phrases like "Credit devaluation" but in the WM system that has NO meaning what so ever!  None, zip, zilch, zero.

Wyndham has changed the rules to allow UNLIMITED rental of WM credits  - why buy anything more than 6,000 credits (5,000 is the real answer but hard to get) and just rent UNLIMITED WM credits for 7 cents from all those folks who are dumping their accounts.

If Wyndham can't develope or buy a new condo for less than 15,000 WM credits for a 2BR Red week then ANY WM owner can just rent 5,000 credits from other owners for 7 cents each or $350 and use 10,000 WM credits they already own and go on vacation.

Also, the "Devaluation" has NO impact on II and RCI exchanges - 10,000 WM credits will get you into a 2BR Marriott or Westin or Four Seasons just like it did 5 or 10 years ago.

Nope, "Credit Devaluation" is just a fact of life and the developer has allowed all of us WM owners a simple and cheap work around.

Next issue.


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## Pit

Perry

I know this is an emotional issue for many WM owners. I'm not one of them, so I'm just trying to follow your logic.

If what used to "cost" 10000 credits now costs 15000 credits (and heading to 20000 credits), aren't those credits on their way to half their previous value. 15000 credits at 7 cents is > $1000. I consider that a high price for a week.

It's nice that II exchanges remain unchanged, but what about those who use credits within WM?


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## Steamboat Bill

As a non-WM owner, I am not privy to any of the WM bashing, but these resale prices seem a huge bargain compared to buying a Marriott.

Here is my questions:

1. How are the quality of WM properties?

2. Why do people really care if a new property takes 12k or 15k or 20k to reserve vs the old price of 10k if they are getting a better property with better features like granite, leather, stainless steel, nicer pool areas, etc.? In other words, if you want new properties at killer locations, then I think WM has a RIGHT to charge more for the rental vs a 15 year old timeshare in a non-resort area and no A/C.

3. Why don't people simply use WM as an II trading account and visit other timeshares instead as this seems to be the CHEAPEST way to play II.


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## PerryM

Pit said:


> Perry
> 
> I know this is an emotional issue for many WM owners. I'm not one of them, so I'm just trying to follow your logic.
> 
> If what used to "cost" 10000 credits now costs 15000 credits (and heading to 20000 credits), aren't those credits on their way to half their previous value. 15000 credits at 7 cents is > $1000. I consider that a high price for a week.
> 
> It's nice that II exchanges remain unchanged, but what about those who use credits within WM?




The guys who started WM back in the early 1990s were window salesmen.  That is all you need to know on how much forethought went into planning a timeshare organization with 3 major components:

1)	The developer
2)	The management company
3)	The owners

There are so many gaping holes in how WM was set up that it’s amazing WM has survived this long.

The dream of “like for like” is how WM is set up.  You bought-in in 1991 for 10,000 WM credits and that should magically get you into a condo bought today.  On paper it sounds fantastic but in reality the developer can’t charge the $3.00 per WM credit needed to pay for today’s condos.  Wyndham can only charge $1.95 and must rely on cheap plywood construction instead of concrete like Marriott, Westin, Four Seasons.  Heck, many Motel 6’s are concrete.

Anyway reality has caused the 10,000 WM credit model to become 15,000 and will migrate to 20,000 and more as time goes on.  What should Wyndham do?  The only 10,000 credit 2BR Red week units they can buy are bankrupt condos in the middle of corn fields in the mid-west.  They tried that and nobody wants to go there.

It’s just a fact of life that new condos are going to cost more.  This has NO impact on when ANY WM owner bought into the system.  Those condos, the day they bought in, can’t be changed and haven’t been changed and won’t be changed.  New condos are going to cost more and if you want to use them you simply rent the difference.  Wyndham is not forcing a SINGLE WM owner to buy ONE more credit from them.


Most of the problems WM owners seem to have relate back to living in a perfect world - even Walgreen's ads tell us there is no perfect world.


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## BocaBum99

Does anyone take Perry seriously anymore?

I think he just wants to stir the pot.  He can't possibly believe half of what he posts.  Well, I don't know.  Remember, he is the one who recommended Trendwest Fractionals, Daytona Beach Condo Hotels, Redweek as a revolutionary exchange company and Las Vegas Penthouse timeshares bought from the developer.


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## PerryM

Steamboat Bill said:


> As a non-WM owner, I am not privy to any of the WM bashing, but these resale prices seem a huge bargain compared to buying a Marriott.
> 
> Here is my questions:
> 
> 1. How are the quality of WM properties?
> 
> 2. Why do people really care if a new property takes 12k or 15k or 20k to reserve vs the old price of 10k if they are getting a better property with better features like granite, leather, stainless steel, nicer pool areas, etc.? In other words, if you want new properties at killer locations, then I think WM has a RIGHT to charge more for the rental vs a 15 year old timeshare in a non-resort area and no A/C.
> 
> 3. Why don't people simply use WM as an II trading account and visit other timeshares instead as this seems to be the CHEAPEST way to play II.



I’ve been shouting, for years now, that WM is THE most powerful II and RCI exchanger in the world – I think folks still don’t believe me.  Folks can just follow our usage of WM and see that a minimum 6k WM account belongs in just about every timeshare owner’s portfolio – for the exchanging capability and flexibility in taking reservations.

Most WM condos are made of plywood and as folks walk by outside, the room bounces up and down.  Call me crazy but that is not my first choice for a vacation.

*The TRUE power of WM ownership is in the lopsided advantages TrendWest negotiated with II and RCI and the wacky definition of supply and demand that the exchange companies use.*  All this and the ability to cancel a WM reservation 30 days before check-in and get back 100% of the credits put up is what makes WM unique in exchanging timeshares.

Getting some hard to get reservations is much easier than what Marriott owners face.  You have to reserve “Throw away days” and put them in front of your real reservation – Marriott owners face a much larger hurtle – they are forced into Throw Away Weeks and must actually own the weeks and not rent them like WM owners can.

I personally believe that there is so much hatred against Wyndham that just discussing ANY topic gets into one group of owners arguing with another group – just like this thread has and will turn into.

I reiterate – there are easy work-around solutions to just about any WM problem – the developer has allowed us owners to do this.  Most developers aren’t that nice.


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## PerryM

BocaBum99 said:


> Does anyone take Perry seriously anymore?
> 
> I think he just wants to stir the pot.  He can't possibly believe half of what he posts.  Well, I don't know.  Remember, he is the one who recommended Trendwest Fractionals, Daytona Beach Condo Hotels, Redweek as a revolutionary exchange company and Las Vegas Penthouse timeshares bought from the developer.




Ahh, the old personal attack - that works wonders in moving the discussion forward.


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## easyrider

The point values seem about the same as they ever were with the exception of the new resorts which are up. We own Worldmark but use it mostly to trade.


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## PerryM

*Correct!*



easysider said:


> The point values seem about the same as they ever were with the exception of the new resorts which are up. We own Worldmark but use it mostly to trade.




Your observations are absolutely correct – WM credit values are NOT going up on ANY WM existing resort as of the day you bought your WM credits.  Assuming that a reasonable person would check out the credits needed for ALL WM resorts on the day they bought they have no reason to complain.

New resorts are costing more than 10k credits for a 2BR Red week – I have yet to see anyone show evidence that the new credits aren’t justified.  Maybe it exists but I’ve not seen it.  Should we then assume that a conspiracy exists to screw existing WM owners?  Apparently some WM owners believe in this conspiracy theory.

Without ANY facts refuting what Wyndham is doing I assume they are doing what’s best for their stock holders and aren’t going to kill the Golden Goose – WM.  Wyndham is no better or worse than Marriott or Starwood or name a major player.

But it takes no effort for folks to spread these rumors and I believe all of this leads to existing WM owners panicking and dumping the WM credits – it’s a guess on my part but I believe it’s true – *WM owners are killing the resale price of WM credits and NOT the developer Wyndham!*


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## herindoors911

Definitely time for you to buy in a whole load more credits Perry.   
Then you can continue to book places at peak times, peak resorts and continue to rent them out for a profit, denying the average worldmark owner of many chances for a good reservation.       Oh but wait.  Didn't Wyndham knock you over the knuckles for doing that?   

Incidently we haven't seen too many hit and runs at the wmowners lately.   you know how you love to blast away there and don't hang around.  

We know you can take criticism.  And you respond to all personal e-mails.  Thing is, I don't want to write to you.


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## PerryM

perl said:


> Definitely time for you to buy in a whole load more credits Perry.
> Then you can continue to book places at peak times, peak resorts and continue to rent them out for a profit, denying the average worldmark owner of many chances for a good reservation.       Oh but wait.  Didn't Wyndham knock you over the knuckles for doing that?
> 
> Incidently we haven't seen too many hit and runs at the wmowners lately.   you know how you love to blast away there and don't hang around.
> 
> We know you can take criticism.  And you respond to all personal e-mails.  Thing is, I don't want to write to you.



Well since you bring up renting reservations that's a great way to make some nice money in WM.  I didn't bring up this topic.

As long as you own the credits you can make all kinds of reservations and rent them to the public - easy to do and a nice revenue source.

The other great gimmick is to rent, as many WM credits as you want for 7 cents each, and make the same juicy reservations.  Then deposit them into RedWeek and find a Marriott and rent it.  Or have your neighbor get the RedWeek reservation and rent it himself.

Don't limit your imagination - make a buck or two from other WM owners who are panicking and take advantage of the fear that other WM owners love to spread around.


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## easyrider

PerryM said:


> Your observations are absolutely correct – WM credit values are NOT going up on ANY WM existing resort as of the day you bought your WM credits.  Assuming that a reasonable person would check out the credits needed for ALL WM resorts on the day they bought they have no reason to complain.
> 
> New resorts are costing more than 10k credits for a 2BR Red week – I have yet to see anyone show evidence that the new credits aren’t justified.  Maybe it exists but I’ve not seen it.  Should we then assume that a conspiracy exists to screw existing WM owners?  Apparently some WM owners believe in this conspiracy theory.
> [/B]



My other TS allows us to reserve at their other new developments without an increase in cost from when we bought in but WM doesn't play that way.


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## PerryM

easysider said:


> My other TS allows us to reserve at their other new developments without an increase in cost from when we bought in but WM doesn't play that way.



You'd have to give me a specific example for me to understand what you are saying.  FF/Wyndham does allow their Points to be used from one project to another but those Points are inferior to Points used by owners there.  WM credits are universal and that's the great problem.

"Like for like" is how WM started but the guys who started WM never gave it more than a few seconds thought - it doesn't work.

Wyndham has made it very clear that they have abandoned the half-baked "like for like" system for a "pay as you go" system that is far more equitable.  The WM owner who bought back in 1991 and who's resorts look like an old Disco movie have to use more WM credits to get into a resort that was just built.  That's reality.

But if someone can show me how a 1991 Disco condo is equal to a new condo in a better location then I'll start to believe in "like for like".

"Like for like" is dead and no amount of replacing WM BOD members is going to bring back those good old days.


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## 4dabirds

easysider said:


> The point values seem about the same as they ever were with the exception of the new resorts which are up. We own Worldmark but use it mostly to trade.



This works well... but the pricing on trades has been steadily going up. Factors include exchange fees, exchange membership, WM maint dues, and housekeeping. 

A couple of years ago I crunched the numbers and trading was still a value... as I recrunch those figures with today's pricing, many times it is much more cost effective (and less of a commitment) to simply rent the exact unit/location I need or to use my credits to swap units with someone. 

This is truly unfortunate!


Kim


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## 4dabirds

I had been a part of the old WM4M... I started reading and posting there +/- 1997. They had just transitioned from their Delphi forum.

What I found there in that forum were many things... 

My husband had purchased our WM account and I honestly did not believe it was a good idea. I had a very negative idea of what timeshares were and had no idea what to do with my credits. Back then, as it is today, WM is sold by the developer and one takes it home and looks at it and says "now what"?! 

Initially, I tried to use the credits on my own... everytime I tried, there was a road block. It SO was NOT what the salesman said it was... reinforcing my negative connotation of timesharing.

So I log onto this forum and there are all these people there and they are like Pod People - so unbelievably excited about Worldmark! This really got my curiousity going...

I spent the next few weeks really trying to put my head around what my husband had purchased and I found that timeshare was beginning to consume my life.  

--------------

Fast forward 10 years or so...

Everyday people purchase from the developer and get home and go "now what"?!

Some of those people will find the current Wyndham - Worldmark Vacation Forum and will read around there, and for the most part still not grasp what their WM can do. The posting constraints make it difficult to easily and effectively get what you need if you have a question. IMHO, it is far better for these people to physically attend an Owner Ed meeting so they can have the feedback they need to the questions they have...

Some of those people will find WM Owners and read around there... many will take away the knowledge they need to effectively use their ownership... and as long as their finances and situations remain the same, they will be happy owners.

Others will read around WM Owners, not bother to learn how to use their memebership, and take the "bad press" Perry is shouting about and possibly use that as an excuse to sell their credits at a $1.50/credit loss. <--- I don't buy into this fully...  I believe they will hold onto said credits for a period of time (1-10 years), during which time they will pay maint fees and accrue credits but mostly never use their accounts until they become irritated enough by the quarterly dues statements that they then decide to act. Then, and only then, would they be irritated enough to "dump" their credits.

Others will try and use their credits, realize that the minimum # sold to them by the salesman is SO not enough and feel frustrated. These owners, unless educated, will continue a downward spiral of dissatisfaction until they are motivated to learn (as I was) or until they sell out.

*It is my opinion, credits dropping 1/3 over the period of one year has to be driven by some other force... people simply do not react this quickly to dissatifaction after spending such a large sum of money on a product*

...owner satisfaction is relative to owner education - thus Jim's TUG advice article is both timely and necessary to help inform owners of what WM is and what it can do. It also cannot be construed by Perry (or anyone else) as slanted, which would be a nice refreshing change of pace. My goodness... can't we all just get along?!

--------------

I will tell you that some of the Owner Advocacy issues that Perry construes as negative "feel" very legitimate and important to me. I wish that Wyndham would be willing to speak to my concerns and help me find solutions to keep me vacationing the way I could with my credits 10 years ago.

I feel frustrated over the fact that the only answer Wyndham has for me is "buy more credits and pay more fees"   ...there must be some sort of middle ground to keep my "forever vacations" forever.

I worry that the Wyndham BOD does slant situations and resort credit values in their favor... and I cannot grasp for the life of me WHY they wouldn't at least try to give some sort of plausible explanation for it. Good grief... even when my kids make choices they know I won't be happy with they at least give me the courtesy of a half-hearted explanation!

*...but most of all, I worry that Wyndham will retire all my old resorts that have what I view as fair and cost conscious credit values and replace them solely with ones that have REALLY inflated credit values and TOTs*

I worry about all these things because WM has brought me and my family a whole different life than the busy one we used to lead. The posibilities it gave us forced us to re-evaluate what we thought was important to us... and continuing to take time to be a family and experience new things is something we value. Losing that because the new manager sees a way to get more money out of us that we personally can't afford leaves me feeling very sad - because with a surplus of funds in the WM coffers they don't actually NEED my money the way that I need it for my family (with gas at $3.00/gallon and Milk @ $4.69). They simply want to seperate me from it because they can.   <--- this wasn't the dream that my husband was sold on back in the day... it is a greedy reality that doesn't have to exist but does.

And it is because of all of this that I think Owner Advocacy has a place... especially because the group is ran as a non-profit and especially because I think that people such as Jim Pappas would make an invaluable addition to the developer-filled BOD that exists now. People who are fair, logical, and patient enough to explain WHY they did what they did seem like the kind of future this Club needs if it is to continue to meet the needs of the owners who bought into it and support it with their dues. 

JMHO

Kim


----------



## PerryM

*Back from the beach...*

“Credit dilution” started early with the Hawaiian WMs.  When we bought WM resale credits 4+ years ago I saw that it cost 20% more to stay in Hawaiian WMs than in Washington state – I don’t remember thousands of posts somewhere calling TrendWest evil.

I don’t remember folks hell bent on dumping their WM credits for any amount of money they could get from someone like me.

Now I’m to believe that thousands of WM owners are dumping their credits because newer resorts cost a hell of a lot more than 1990’s resorts? 

The developer is not causing this – the incessant drum beat of “Wyndham is evil” is – that’s my whole reason for replying to this thread – we, the WM owners, are doing this for all kinds of reasons that have little to do with the developer but a very thin resale market.

Supply and demand dictate what WM resale credits are worth – NOT WYNDHAM!  The resale WM market is very very thin and rumors do affect it.

As a consumer I have NO control over Wyndham – I do have control over my usage of WM and I follow the rules to the letter – I don’t know where this rumor that I was scolded for renting WM units comes from but it’s false.  Rent WM units to the public and you will enjoy your WM usage even more.

But most of the stuff at that other web site is just as phony.  If you guys don’t like my input just ignore me.  When I have a point to make I make it, I don’t want to become part of the reason WM credits are headed for my 38¢ prediction.


I don't even have a bet with someone that resale WM credits will get to 38¢ so I have no stake in this price.  (I'm not going to start new bets either)


----------



## cruisin

4dabirds said:


> *...but most of all, I worry that Wyndham will retire all my old resorts that have what I view as fair and cost conscious credit values and replace them solely with ones that have REALLY inflated credit values and TOTs*
> 
> 
> 
> Kim



No worries here, they need the old resorts to sell small accounts to people who can't afford them. Take away every new purchase under 10k credits, and I bet you get rid of at least 70% of sales. How could you sell 6K credits to someone, and show them a  20K 2 bedroom unit, they could borrow use available and banked and still not stay 1 week every 3 years!!


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## LLW

PerryM said:


> I’ve been shouting, for years now, that WM is THE most powerful II and RCI exchanger in the world – I think folks still don’t believe me.  Folks can just follow our usage of WM and see that a minimum 6k WM account belongs in just about every timeshare owner’s portfolio – for the exchanging capability and flexibility in taking reservations.
> 
> *Most WM condos are made of plywood and as folks walk by outside, the room bounces up and down.  Call me crazy but that is not my first choice for a vacation.*
> *The TRUE power of WM ownership is in the lopsided advantages TrendWest negotiated with II and RCI and the wacky definition of supply and demand that the exchange companies use.*  All this and the ability to cancel a WM reservation 30 days before check-in and get back 100% of the credits put up is what makes WM unique in exchanging timeshares.
> 
> Getting some hard to get reservations is much easier than what Marriott owners face.  You have to reserve “Throw away days” and put them in front of your real reservation – Marriott owners face a much larger hurtle – they are forced into Throw Away Weeks and must actually own the weeks and not rent them like WM owners can.



NOW WHO IS BADMOUTHING WORLDMARK?  Careful, Perry, TUG's readership is much bigger than wmowners'.  

Most WM owners buy WM to use, not to exchange. Few have the time that you have for doing exchanges, Perry. Most TUGgers advocate buy to use, not to exchange. 

Besides, as Wyndham adds more 15,000 units in the mix, the average is going to go up. Wyndham determines the credits they take for exchanges - the exchange companies just take the weeks from Wyndham. Do you think Wyndham will be so nice as to take just 10,000 credits for the 15,000 unit that they are giving II/RCI? Wasn't there a rumor that RCI exhchanges are going to go up in credits? I know, you only do Marriott exchanges, you don't care about RCI, or those who are going to use WM instead of exchanging them. I think you said you are going to sell Worldmark when it doesn't do exchanges well for you any more.


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## PerryM

LLW said:


> NOW WHO IS BADMOUTHING WORLDMARK?  Careful, Perry, TUG's readership is much bigger than wmowners'.
> 
> Most WM owners buy WM to use, not to exchange. Few have the time that you have for doing exchanges, Perry. Most TUGgers advocate buy to use, not to exchange.
> 
> Besides, as Wyndham adds more 15,000 units in the mix, the average is going to go up. Wyndham determines the credits they take for exchanges - the exchange companies just take the weeks from Wyndham. Do you think Wyndham will be so nice as to take just 10,000 credits for the 15,000 unit that they are giving II/RCI? Wasn't there a rumor that RCI exhchanges are going to go up in credits? I know, you only do Marriott exchanges, you don't care about RCI, or those who are going to use WM instead of exchanging them. I think you said you are going to sell Worldmark when it doesn't do exchanges well for you any more.



Luckily Wyndham, WM, and II are bound by the on-going agreement - new WM resorts are NOT added to the 60 or so that are used with II exchanges.  If Wyndham charges 50,000 credits for a Red 2BR week this has NO impact on my II exchanges.

The only thing that matters is that Wyndham maintain the II affiliated WM resorts in a reasonable manner.  I have no doubts that they will.  I see no problems for 10+ more years.

RCI is a completely different case where new WM resorts are included.  If RCI wants more WM credits I bet Wyndham will go for it.

P.S. 
Industry wide ARDA reports that:
"Of all owners, *35.8 percent personally used their own timeshare *purchase during the past 12 months, while *47.4 percent exchanged or space banked *it, 4.4 percent rented it out, and 2.9 percent gave it away. Only 9.5 percent of time owned by all owners went unused during the last 12 months."

No matter what the wives-tales say timeshare owners buy to mainly exchange.  WM is ideal for this purpose.  The 60+ WM resorts have many WM owners not taking advantage of the fantastic II exchanging capability that I use all the time - WM owners you keep using WM resorts and I'll keep exchanging into Marriotts.


----------



## LLW

PerryM said:


> New resorts are costing more than 10k credits for a 2BR Red week – I have yet to see anyone show evidence that the new credits aren’t justified.  Maybe it exists but I’ve not seen it.  Should we then assume that a conspiracy exists to screw existing WM owners?  Apparently some WM owners believe in this conspiracy theory.
> 
> Without ANY facts refuting what Wyndham is doing I assume they are doing what’s best for their stock holders and aren’t going to kill the Golden Goose – WM.  Wyndham is no better or worse than Marriott or Starwood or name a major player.



There are historical data to show that the *biggest reason *for the credit values to go up like they are is because Wyndham is taking more profits. You will find the data on Wmowners.  

And it is fine for Wyndham to want to take more profits - that's what normal corporate management does. The problem is the Worldmark board of directors, those who supposedly look out for Worldmark owners' interest, is controlled by people who are current or former Wyndham employees, who get their paycheck or severance payments from Wyndham.

But maybe we shouldn't say anything about that. In case you need to sell your Worldmark you don't want the resale value to go any lower.   But if you knew it was going to be 38 cents, why did you buy at 80 or 60? You are getting the value out of it, aren't you?


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## PerryM

LLW said:


> There are historical data to show that the *biggest reason *for the credit values to go up like they are is because Wyndham is taking more profits. You will find the data on Wmowners.
> 
> And it is fine for Wyndham to want to take more profits - that's what normal corporate management does. The problem is the Worldmark board of directors, those who supposedly look out for Worldmark owners' interest, is controlled by people who are current or former Wyndham employees, who get their paycheck or severance payments from Wyndham.
> 
> But maybe we shouldn't say anything about that. In case you need to sell your Worldmark you don't want the resale value to go any lower.   But if you knew it was going to be 38 cents, why did you buy at 80 or 60? You are getting the value out of it, aren't you?




Wyndham is exactly like Marriott – they are driven to increase the worth of their stock holders.  If they didn’t they would be canned in a second.  Wyndham will try to make more and more profit – I do the same exact thing.  I can’t blame them for that.

The WM BOD members are elected by the WM owners – I can’t, for the life of me, see what’s wrong with that.  If some WM owners think there is something wrong with how the WM BOD conducts elections I have yet to see ANY documentation showing that they are doing ANYTHING wrong.  Somebody show me this if it exists.  (No conspiracies please, show me the federal or state litigation that surly would be brought up if this were true).

I have no control over the resale prices of WM credits – neither does Wyndham as far as I can see.  I don’t see them bashing WM resale credits I see them plugging their credits they sell.

In an average month Wyndham will bring hundreds/thousands of happy new WM owners brimming with excitement.  I’ve yet to receive a single piece of hate mail from Wyndham but all I have to do is log into that other chat room and see thousands of hate posts against Wyndham.  *This, to me, is THE primary cause for falling WM resale prices – other WM owners scarring the hell out of Ma and Pa.*

Somebody show me the hate mail from Wyndham?

Complicated issues of Credit Devaluation, hollow credits, corn field condos, over inflated new resorts, are way way beyond the WM owner scared to death and dumping their credits at ANY price to bottom feeders like me will offer them.  Buying cheap WM credits is getting so easy that just about anyone can buy near the real estate value of a WM credit – somewhere around 38¢ a credit and another reason I picked that price.


----------



## LLW

PerryM said:


> P.S.
> Industry wide ARDA reports that:
> "Of all owners, *35.8 percent personally used their own timeshare *purchase during the past 12 months, while *47.4 percent exchanged or space banked *it, 4.4 percent rented it out, and 2.9 percent gave it away. Only 9.5 percent of time owned by all owners went unused during the last 12 months."
> 
> No matter what the wives-tales say timeshare owners buy to mainly exchange.  WM is ideal for this purpose.  The 60+ WM resorts have many WM owners not taking advantage of the fantastic II exchanging capability that I use all the time - WM owners you keep using WM resorts and I'll keep exchanging into Marriotts.



I think the external exchange rate for WM owners is in the single digits, because there are 60+ places to vacation internally. I do half and half, but I exchange into a 2BR with 4,000 or 5,000 credits, not 18,000 like you do. Of course I don't go to Marriotts all the time either - I go to Marriott, Four Seasons Aviara, and a few others.


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## LLW

PerryM said:


> The WM BOD members are elected by the WM owners.....



If you read the election results on WMO you will see that Wyndham used their developer votes to elect the latest director.


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## cotraveller

LLW said:


> Most WM owners buy WM to use, not to exchange. Few have the time that you have for doing exchanges, Perry. Most TUGgers advocate buy to use, not to exchange.



We bought WorldMark to use and I think we do a pretty good job of that.  We’ve been owners since 2001 and we’ve averaged 5 to 6 weeks at various resorts every year with a 10,000 credit WorldMark account.  We use a combination of direct booking with credits, credit rentals, Inventory Specials, Bonus time, 4,000 credit Instant Exchange (Flexchange) with RCI and II, RCI Extra and Last Call vacations, and II getaways.  There’s no magic to it and nothing has changed in the 6+ years we have been owners that has any significant impact on how we use WorldMark.

The negativity isn’t new either.  When I first became involved with the forums, primarily the old WorldMark forum, the first negativity I remember concerned eastward expansion.  That negativity was directed at the developer, just as the negativity is directed today.  Nothing has changed.  

Over the years the old WorldMark forum open discussion area was shut down (twice) and a few new WorldMark sites sprang up, including mine.  Some stress the negative, I do not.  Some people agree with me, some do not.  But the comments I receive support the idea that the negativity turns off a lot of people so I’ll keep the positive outlook.


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## PerryM

LLW said:


> If you read the election results on WMO you will see that Wyndham used their developer votes to elect the latest director.




Wyndham didn't do anything wrong - they played by the rules and won.  I know that this sits wrong with some folks but playing by the rules is how elections are won.

I predicted last year that all the hoopla and bashing of Wyndham would fail to elect a hostile WM owner to the BOD and I was right.  I make the same prediction this year - bash Wyndham all you want candidates - you will simply scare Ma and Pa into dumping their WM credits and lowering resale prices.

Wyndham isn't doing any of this, fellow WM owners are.  That's why I am openly hostile to them, those who scare the daylights out of fellow WM owners just to make a political statement; you are the cause of falling prices.

But I'm just one WM owner and if fellow WM owners are afraid of my opinions that should tell everyone just how flimsy their opinions are - they can't withstand a single counter view.  Failure is the logical outcome of wafer thin rational like that.


----------



## PerryM

LLW said:


> I think the external exchange rate for WM owners is in the single digits, because there are 60+ places to vacation internally. I do half and half, but I exchange into a 2BR with 4,000 or 5,000 credits, not 18,000 like you do. Of course I don't go to Marriotts all the time either - I go to Marriott, Four Seasons Aviara, and a few others.



This is great!

WM owners get do to something that NO other timeshare owner can do - use the tremendous exchange power of a 3BR Red week and only pay for the unit it snatched from other II members.  Put a 3BR to work for you and pay for a 2BR if that's what you get.

Then to top if off put up NO WM CREDITS at all while a dozen ongoing searches work for you and then only pay for what you snag, days, weeks, and I find months, later as II only collects what that 3BR snatched!

II's definition of supply and demand favor WM owners since so many of them never use II to exchange - great scarcity results in tremendous trading power.


----------



## PA-

Steamboat Bill said:


> ...
> 
> 2. Why do people really care if a new property takes 12k or 15k or 20k to reserve vs the old price of 10k if they are getting a better property with better features like granite, leather, stainless steel, nicer pool areas, etc.? In other words, if you want new properties at killer locations, then I think WM has a RIGHT to charge more for the rental vs a 15 year old timeshare in a non-resort area and no A/C.
> 
> 3. Why don't people simply use WM as an II trading account and visit other timeshares instead as this seems to be the CHEAPEST way to play II.



Bill, the new properties don't cost more because they have better features.  The newer properties are actually less expensive than previous resorts.  Wyndham is making them smaller, in many cases completely eliminating closets and reducing living areas.  The finish out is the same as ever, if not cheaper.  Amenities are not better than previous resorts, and locations are certainly not better.  If you compare the price of the new Yellowstone resort to the cost of building Depot bay (pre-Cendant), the difference is that the developer is not satisfied with the old profit levels.

While it may make sense to TUG members to spend $4000 to buy a timeshare strictly for exchange purposes, that is not the way Worldmark is marketed or used.  Most people buy because they have multiple locations near their home that can be booked for short stays.  Exchanges won't serve that need.


----------



## PA-

BocaBum99 said:


> Does anyone take Perry seriously anymore?
> 
> I think he just wants to stir the pot.  He can't possibly believe half of what he posts.  Well, I don't know.  Remember, he is the one who recommended Trendwest Fractionals, Daytona Beach Condo Hotels, Redweek as a revolutionary exchange company and Las Vegas Penthouse timeshares bought from the developer.



It's getting very difficult to have an adult conversation around here.  This chat room is becoming like one of the old "party line" telephone lines from the 70s, that always digressed to the loudest most obnoxious kids shouting down any attempt at communication.


----------



## bruwery

*Negativity does impact resales*

One of Perry's assertions is that the negativity is driving down resale prices.  I am inclined to agree with him to some extent.  Last year, I looked long and hard at Worldmark.

Anybody want to guess what kept me from pulling the trigger on a resale purchase?

It was all the negativity regarding Wyndham, and the Worldmark board, and the pending directors' election.  There were a large amount of scandalous assertions and enough other "the sky is falling" rhetoric regarding Wyndham's control of said board, and the lack of owner representation, that I made a decision to avoid the system altogether.  Partially due to a distrust I developed, and partially to avoid being associated with such a vociferous group of Chicken Littles.

I don't recall for sure where I saw that negativity, but it was likely this website because I don't frequent any other travel/timeshare forums.

So the negativity influenced my decision.  Clearly, taken by itself, my decision not to purchase didn't have any relevant impact on the marketplace.  However, if the assertions of those few individuals scared me off, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that such behavior influenced the decisions of others, as well.

That being said, I'm still in the market for a resale purchase.  So whatever folks can do to continue driving that cost down is okay with me.  Let the Wyndham bashing continue...


----------



## PA-

bruwery said:


> ...
> 
> I don't recall for sure where I saw that negativity, but it was likely this website because I don't frequent any other travel/timeshare forums.
> 
> ....
> 
> That being said, I'm still in the market for a resale purchase.  So whatever folks can do to continue driving that cost down is okay with me.  Let the Wyndham bashing continue...



1)  If it was on this website, it was most likely Perry that was the source of the most vociferous negativity.  Just do a search on Perry's posts over the last 2 years.

2)  If you are still in the market for a resale purchase, it disproves the point.  

Were the whistle blowers responsible for the losses suffered by Enron investors?  Who should get the blame there?  If indeed the Wyndham Board of Directors is crooked, what do you suggest be done in order to protect resale prices.  Stop investigating their actions???  That wouldn't make much sense, would it?  Perry doesn't make the point that they are blameless.  His contention seems to be, just use it and throw it away after they've ruined it.  That's a good option, but not everybody is content to allow others to steal from them in that way.


----------



## 4dabirds

PA- said:


> Perry doesn't make the point that they are blameless.  His contention seems to be, just use it and throw it away after they've ruined it.  That's a good option, *but not everybody is content to allow others to steal from them in that way.*



This is EXACTLY how I feel Philip - thank you! 

My husband and I have worked HARD to afford what we have and we love it... why does someone get to come in and trash it, and everybody else stand around and tell me to be quiet about it? They don't have to listen to me, but don't I at least deserve to be hurt and a little upset over it?

My husband and I are caring people... if someone needs something, we try to find a way to help. With record WM reserves, Wyndham doesn't NEED my money to cover the maint/housekeeping... they just want it. Shouldn't I be upset and hurt over that?

If I follow Perry's logic of use it and throw it away, who will replace what I have lost? There is no magic fairy... I have to work harder than I did the first time just to replace what I have lost. What if I am retired and on a fixed income?

Call me old-fashioned, but people shouldn't have to constantly dip into their pockets to try and replace what others have stolen through greed.

Kim


----------



## bruwery

PA- said:


> 1)  If it was on this website, it was most likely Perry that was the source of the most vociferous negativity.  Just do a search on Perry's posts over the last 2 years.



I should do some browsing and refresh my memory, but I don't believe that the infammatory rantings I read were from Perry.  It's possible that he interjected on the thread, but he was a minor contributor if he posted at all.  I'd remember if it was Perry because his rants tend to take on a memorable tone.

Shucks, this is bothering me now; I need to find that thread.  I'll PM you the link if I find it.

I don't mean to imply that the negativity was unfounded, or that negativity in and of itself is a bad thing.  I wouldn't want to censor it, and I wouldn't want people to speak something other than their version of the truth.  It's helpful to see good and bad; frankly, I wouldn't want to see a site where everybody gushes goodness and happiness all over the place.  If I wanted that, I'd just join some Mary Poppins fan club or something equally sickening.

My point was merely reinforcing that it is possible that Perry had a point, and that negativity did impact resale pricing.  Whether or not the negativity was justified is not my point.



PA- said:


> 2)  If you are still in the market for a resale purchase, it disproves the point.
> 
> Were the whistle blowers responsible for the losses suffered by Enron investors?  Who should get the blame there?  If indeed the Wyndham Board of Directors is crooked, what do you suggest be done in order to protect resale prices.  Stop investigating their actions???  That wouldn't make much sense, would it?  Perry doesn't make the point that they are blameless.  His contention seems to be, just use it and throw it away after they've ruined it.  That's a good option, but not everybody is content to allow others to steal from them in that way.



Contrarily, my still being in the market actually reinforces my point, rather than disproves it - although upon re-reading my post, it's misleading and I understand how you reached your conclusion.  What I should have said is that the negativity (regardless of who's to blame) has lowered the price I'm willing to pay.  That price point hasn't been hit yet, so I haven't bought.  I guess I need the disgruntled Worldmark owners to step up their complaints...


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## bruwery

I found the thread.  It's more than a year old, but I only stumbled upon it in the past year while reading up on Worldmark.

I won't link it here, but it contained over 100 posts from several TUG users, and Perry was neither the O.P., nor a major contributor to the negativity of the thread.


----------



## PA-

bruwery said:


> ... It's possible that he interjected on the thread, but he was a minor contributor if he posted at all.  ...



That would be a first.


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## cotraveller

bruwery said:


> I guess I need the disgruntled Worldmark owners to step up their complaints...



No problems there, I'm sure some will fullfill your request.  If they don't, that will really be a first.


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## PA-

Implying that people complaining about the misdeeds of the board is in any way, shape or form the problem is abhorant.  Once again, it's like blaming the whistle blowers, rather than Enron executives for the loss of all those $billions.

Ignoring the fact that the Wyndham board has systematically colluded with Wyndham to sell off the existing assets of the company at lower prices and keep the profit for themselves is ridiculous in my opinion.  We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.  Wyndham is doing what they did to Fairfield, and resale prices are tanking as a result, just like at Fairfield.  How many times does this have to happen before the blame is on the theif, not the victim?


----------



## PerryM

*King of the hill...*

Over the years I’ve helped 50+ folks become WM owners – thank you very much.

I don’t espouse the plywood construction or the Northwest locations but I keep telling folks that *WM is THE most powerful II exchanger I know of.*  That has to do with Trading Power, the 3BR trick, renting WM credits with no need to own them, 30 day cancellation policy of WM reservations, etc.

I also point out the utter stupidity of the developers over the years and how to exploit their insanity.  I use both the pros and cons to my advantage.

This thread has to do with the falling prices of WM resale credits.  I’ve yet to see a rebuttal that refutes anything I’ve said – just bashing of me.  I guess if you can’t debate me then insult me.  Ok, I can take it.

Getting back to why WM RESALE credits are falling like a lead balloon don’t blame the developer, Wyndham.  Like I said they bring thousands of happy WM owners to our club monthly.  They know how to run a timeshare organization and the WM owners have spoken as to who they want to represent them on the BOD.  I guess one could be upset that they brought out the rule book to have the WM owners they like on the BOD but they didn’t do anything a smart cookie wouldn’t do.

The simple reason why WM resale credits are plummeting has to do with the negative comments thousands of fellow WM owners keep insulting them with.  The “other site” has probably 10,000 posts bashing the developer for all kinds of reasons.  My argument is that there isn’t ONE valid reason to blame Wyndham, the developer.  But because of the hatred that spews from all these fellow owners this has consequences.

The folks who I’ve recommended who have not bought WM point this fact out to me – for years now.  Fellow WM owner’s hell bent on destroying the developer at any cost.  Shoot off that foot seems to be a solution.

Anyway, I’m just ONE WM owner who reads the rule book, plays by the rules, and maximizes my ownership of WM.  In 2007 I did not spend one second in a WM resort and spent our vacations in timeshares worth 5 times as much and in much nicer locations.  2008 looks just as good.

Conclusion:
I still recommend WM resale credits in every timeshare owner’s portfolio – not to stay in plywood condos but to use in II and RCI and stay at top of the line timeshares at top of the line times.  In this area WM is king of the hill.


----------



## PA-

One of the biggest mistakes made by scientists of all ilk, including social scientists, is assuming false correlations.

FACT:

1)  In 2002, Cendant purchased Trendwest

2)  In 2006, Cendant (renamed Wyndham) introduced the first stage of a VIP program and began telling all prospects in their sales presentations that purchasers on the resale market could expect greatly diminished use of Worldmark

3)  Since Cendant's purchase, the number of credits generated per condo has skyrocketed.

4)  Since Cendant's purchase, housekeeping fees rose for the first time in many years and is increasing every year.

5)  Since Cendant's purchase, maintenance fees and bonus time fees are increasing at the highest amounts allowed by our bylaws.

6)  The complaints of owners have risen along with these changes.

CONCLUSION (of at least 1 or 2 people)

# 6 is the culprit.


----------



## GregT

WOW!!!!

This has been an interesting post -- teaches me to not be away from TUG for a few days.

I tend to lurk mostly, but post from time to time, and as now, I feel compelled to speak -- but, you know the expression, this, and [$0.50?] will get you a cup of coffee...............

First of all....the Perry bashing....

The Perry-bashers have missed the most obvious question.  Perry, why are you checking TUG when you're on Maui?  And posting multiple comments?  Come on....go to the beach!!!

Now that that question has been asked, I think that we need a little perspective.

We are all WM owners. We are all seeing prices fall -- we all could not sell our ownership for what we paid for it.  It's a fact of market dynamics that may/may not be explainable -- and intelligent people can differ as to why.

So what?  Do you like the club?  Are you able to use it for what you want (whether it is for guests/rent/personal use)?  If not, sell it.  If so, hold or buy more.

We own "real estate".  We can't be unhappy if things change over the years and it's not exactly what we thought we were getting -- are we flexible enough to change with the times?  I remember I bought a house, and six months later, the adjacent house sold for 10% less -- I didn't care.  I liked my house and didn't need to sell it.

I don't care if WM goes up or down in price.  I don't plan to buy any more.  I have enough for what my wife and I planned when we bought -- an annual week in Hawaii and an occasional Palm Springs (Indio?) weekend.  

It meets our needs.

I repeat that.  It meets our needs.  Sure the club has changed, and I watch with detached interest the credit dilution, and yes, it's harder to get reservations than before, but it meets our needs.

I dislike the negative tone to Perry, but he is both educational and thought-provoking -- and I welcome and appreciate his comments.  I've learned alot from him, and I don't want any individual's voice to be drowned out.

This is an electronic version of Hyde Park -- Speaker's Corner.  Anyone can voice their opinion, and we are all equals.

Perry, I welcome your comments (although I can guarantee you in three months when I am at MOC, I won't be posting on TUG) and I would like them to continue.

The interesting thing about internet/email is that we say things we'd never say in person -- it's an interesting medium.   I like to learn, and what better way than from a healthy, respectful dialogue.

Perry, please keep it coming (and please go have a Mai Tai).

All the best,

Greg


----------



## PerryM

*Is that a whale?*

Today we went whale watching and saw unbelievable breaches of whales – their bodies totally out of the water.  Best whale watching ever.

As I parked my butt on the inflatable edge of the boat I noticed an older couple across from me – the guy had on a “Maui Westin Vacation Club” polo shirt – a fellow timeshare person to talk to!  We struck up a conversation and I learned that they own Marriotts in Kauai, Vegas, and the Maui Westin.  Bought all 3 from the developer and probably paid $200k for them (a timeshare whale!).  They just loved them.

I gave him our list of timeshares and when I mentioned WorldMark I got a reaction that I’ve heard many times before – “Too cheap”.  I doubt that Wyndham can overcome the cheap image – take a tour of just about any WM and the “Plywood” feeling just bubbles up.  

He told me to get into II and they loved exchanging their studios and going to some nice resorts.  I gave him a list of the Marriotts we’ve been to and I could see that he was impressed.  He asked me what I gave up to get to these resorts and at holiday times – I said WorldMark and this time he did not wrinkle his nose but listened intensely.

If someone buys a minimum WM account and uses all the wonderful advantages that the crazy developers have given us over the years even a guy who spent $200k starts to think completely different.  Rent the holiday studios he owns and use WM to get to the same destinations in some great resorts for peanuts.

Anyway, that’s what I did this afternoon while whale watching – I think I got another person interested in WM; I gave him my eMail address.

I didn’t have to bash the developer, I didn’t have to bellyache about credit dilution, I didn’t bemoan the “wrong” WM owners on the WM BOD – I sold what WM is best at – exchanging for timeshares worth 5 to 10 times as much.

I wish all those WM owners who spend time posting hundreds of hate bashing posts would take a similar amount of time praising WM and selling strangers who sit across from you on the whale watching boat.

I do my part…


----------



## cotraveller

PA- said:


> One of the biggest mistakes made by scientists of all ilk, including social scientists, is assuming false correlations.
> 
> FACT:
> 
> 1)  In 2002, Cendant purchased Trendwest


The purchase was announced on April 10, 2002 and closed on June 3, 2002.



PA- said:


> 2)  In 2006, Cendant (renamed Wyndham) introduced the first stage of a VIP program and began telling all prospects in their sales presentations that purchasers on the resale market could expect greatly diminished use of Worldmark



In 2006 the amount of bonus time increased over prior years, despite dire predictions that it would vanish due to the VIP program.  Optional uses of WorldMark credits such as Cruise for Credits, Tours, etc., continue to be very popular with WorldMark owners.



PA- said:


> 3)  Since Cendant's purchase, the number of credits generated per condo has skyrocketed.



Skyrocket is such a quantifying term.  In 2006, the San Diego resort, at 25% higher credit values than two other urban locations, operated at a 91% occupancy rate.  West Yellowstone, at 13,500 credits for a 2 bedroom unit, opened this month and is already booked solid for the months of May through mid-October.  The owners are using the new resorts and by their use show their approval.

Twenty or more new resorts have been added to the WorldMark family since 2002, bringing the total number of resorts to over 60, with over 5,000 units available for WorldMark owners.  Some have higher credit values some do not.  In addition Wyndham has added direct access to 10 of the Wyndham (Fairfield) resorts for WorldMark owners.  Two to six units in each of 10 different resorts that can be booked directly with WorldMark credits, no exchange fee required.



PA- said:


> 4)  Since Cendant's purchase, housekeeping fees rose for the first time in many years and is increasing every year.



You receive one free housekeeping credit for each 10,000 WorldMark credits you own.  If you use your credits to book a full weeks stay you pay no additional housekeeping fees.  If you book multiple stays the current housekeeping fee on a two bedroom unit is $70.  By comparison, the comparable housekeeping fee at a Vacation Internationale resort is $112.



PA- said:


> 5)  Since Cendant's purchase, maintenance fees and bonus time fees are increasing at the highest amounts allowed by our bylaws.



Maintenance fees on a 15,000 credit WorldMark account, which is a large enough account to book a unit at any of the WorldMark resorts, including the  higher credit ones, is currently $689.  By comparison, the maintenance fees at Marriott’s Cypress Harbour, which I have booked twice during spring break for 4,000 credits and a $139 exchange fee, are over $800.

Examining a 10,000 credit account, which is a more common size, maintenance fees have risen from $419 in January of 2002 to $525 today.  That is an annual rate of 4.6%, which while close, is still below the allowable maximum increase of 5.0%.  Bonus time fees have increased from 4 cents per credit to 4.6 cents per credit.  I believe they are headed to 5 cents in the next two years.  At that rate a typical two bedroom unit can be booked for a weeknight during Red Season for a total cash fee of $62.50.  Not bad for a plywood condo.



PA- said:


> 6)  The complaints of owners have risen along with these changes.
> 
> CONCLUSION (of at least 1 or 2 people)
> 
> # 6 is the culprit.



The complaints of *some* owners have risen.  So has the price of gas, home foreclosures, and negative talk concerning the state of the economy.  Any or all of those factors could affect prices.  I'll repeat the opening statement of the post I quoted.  "_One of the biggest mistakes made by scientists of all ilk, including social scientists, is assuming false correlations."_

Which correlations are false?  That's for each individual owner to decide.  I've decided and in spite of all the naysayers I am holding on to my WorldMark account and plan to continue enjoying it.


----------



## PA-

cotraveller said:


> ...
> 
> 
> In 2006, the San Diego resort, at 25% higher credit values than two other urban locations, operated at a 91% occupancy rate.  West Yellowstone, at 13,500 credits for a 2 bedroom unit, opened this month and is already booked solid for the months of May through mid-October.  The owners are using the new resorts and by their use show their approval.
> ....



It appears that you are including the huge number of unsold credits Wyndham uses to book rooms and rent them in with your occupancy rate.  You know the governing documents as well as anyone, so you're aware this is not supposed to be allowed per the declarations.  You're as clueless as we all are as to the actual number of OWNER credits used at these resorts, because Wyndham doesn't provide this information, despite many requests to provide it.


----------



## cotraveller

PA- said:


> It appears that you are including the huge number of unsold credits Wyndham uses to book rooms and rent them in with your occupancy rate.  You know the governing documents as well as anyone, so you're aware this is not supposed to be allowed per the declarations.  *You're as clueless as we all are as to the actual number of OWNER credits used at these resorts, because Wyndham doesn't provide this information, despite many requests to provide it*.



Repeating again your original statement:  "One of the biggest mistakes made by scientists of all ilk, including social scientists, is assuming false correlations."

If they don't supply information that means that you are as clueless as I am about who's booking what, and that of course that makes your correlations concerning the resort useage correct and mine incorrect.


----------



## FlyKaesan

Perry, are you ever planning to share your secrets?
I bought it since you said you will share it last year and I still haven't heard about it.
I exchanged my WM for 2 weeks Orlando and I regret it soooooo much.


----------



## PA-

cotraveller said:


> Repeating again your original statement:  "One of the biggest mistakes made by scientists of all ilk, including social scientists, is assuming false correlations."
> 
> If they don't supply information that means that you are as clueless as I am about who's booking what, and that of course that makes your correlations concerning the resort useage correct and mine incorrect.



I'm not certain how much of that occupancy was Wyndham booking units to rent out.  But then again, I'm not the one drawing conclusions based on occupancy rates.  In the last year or so, rentals of Worldmark units as Getaways have become prevalent on RCI so I'm pretty certain that some of the occupancy rates are not owner credits.

Stating that occupancy rates indicate owner approval may be misleading.


----------



## cotraveller

PA- said:


> I'm not certain how much of that occupancy was Wyndham booking units to rent out.  But then again, I'm not the one drawing conclusions based on occupancy rates.  In the last year or so, rentals of Worldmark units as Getaways have become prevalent on RCI so I'm pretty certain that some of the occupancy rates are not owner credits.
> 
> Stating that occupancy rates indicate owner approval may be misleading.



I have no idea where the RCI Getaway rentals come from.  That’s another area where I am clueless.  I’ll defer to your knowledge of the inner workings of that organization.  Although I might suggest that perhaps some of the rentals on RCI of Getaways could be from deposits of units for exchanges.  

I checked RCI just now and found a number of Galena studio units that are available as Getaways.  I have read in past TUG posts that Galena studios have been used successfully to exchange into some very prime weeks, including Marriott resorts and Christmas ski weeks. Or it might be just another unsupported thought.

What I see from all this is that it is ok to state that the San Diego resort occupancy include bookings from a “_huge number of unsold credits Wyndham uses to book rooms and rent them_” without having any data to support that conclusion, even if you are “_not certain how much of that occupancy was Wyndham booking units to rent out_”.  But it is not ok to state the actual occupancy at San Diego, which is a combination of all types of bookings, from actual data which was supplied.  But then again I am not the one drawing conclusions about Wyndham rentals.

Stating that occupancy rates indicate huge Wyndham rentals may be misleading.


----------



## PA-

cotraveller said:


> ...
> Stating that occupancy rates indicate huge Wyndham rentals may be misleading.



I'm not sure what you mean by this, but there's no reason to get snippy.  Wyndham is using their unsold credits to book rooms and rent them, they've already admitted that.  I'm not sure how much of that occupancy rate is due to Wyndham's use of unsold credits, as opposed to owner's credits.  It could be a large or small amount, but it's not 0% nor 100%.  

My only point is that saying the occupancy rate indicates that owners approve of the new resorts credit assignment not necessarily correct.  Similar to Perry contending that because Wyndham used their unsold inventory to thwart the owner's wishes and re-elect the incumbents indicates the owner's have spoken.  Neither is necessarily the case.


----------



## PA-

cotraveller said:


> ....
> 
> I checked RCI just now and found a number of Galena studio units that are available as Getaways.  I have read in past TUG posts that Galena studios have been used successfully to exchange into some very prime weeks, including Marriott resorts and Christmas ski weeks. Or it might be just another unsupported thought.
> 
> What I see from all this is that it is ok to state that the San Diego resort occupancy include bookings from a “_huge number of unsold credits Wyndham uses to book rooms and rent them_” without having any data to support that conclusion, even if you are “_not certain how much of that occupancy was Wyndham booking units to rent out_”.  But it is not ok to state the actual occupancy at San Diego, which is a combination of all types of bookings, from actual data which was supplied.  But then again I am not the one drawing conclusions about Wyndham rentals.
> 
> Stating that occupancy rates indicate huge Wyndham rentals may be misleading.



I never indicated that the san diego resort occupancy included bookings from any rentals (though it's likely they do).  i simply said that Wyndham is booking large numbers of units and renting them, making it impossible to use those occupancy rates to draw conclusions.

I also never said there's anything wrong with quoting the occupancy rate.  But the way you posted made it seem like it was all owner bookings, especially when you said that proved the owners approved of the higher credit values since they were booking the resorts so heavily.  When a resort opens and is immediately booked, don't you suspect it's likely that the developer is booking it for sales tours, since the resorts typically take a while to book with owner credits?

Did you also notice, while you saw Galena, the many other resorts with multiple weeks available for rent?    There are large numbers of worldmark weeks available for rent, far more than there ever were prior to a year or so ago.


----------



## cotraveller

PA- said:


> When a resort opens and is immediately booked, don't you suspect it's likely that the developer is booking it for sales tours, since the resorts typically take a while to book with owner credits?


I suspect nothing.  Being an engineer by trade (now retired) I tend to base conclusions on facts, not unsupported rumors or speculations.  I see data that shows the resort was booked.  I see no data that says those bookings were for sales tours, parties, owners, renters, exchangers, estraterrestials, or any others.  Therefore I draw no conclusions concerning the nature of the bookings.

Yellowstone is fully booked for this coming summer.  I have not concluded anything about the nature of those bookings either.

If I were to make any conclusions I could conclude that the owners are happy to see resorts in those new locations and are using the new resorts. Or I could conclude that nasty old Wyndham is up to some evil misdeed and is filling those resorts for their own purposes.



PA- said:


> Did you also notice, while you saw Galena, the many other resorts with multiple weeks available for rent?    There are large numbers of worldmark weeks available for rent, far more than there ever were prior to a year or so ago.



I did not do a complete search of all RCI Getaways or Last Call vacations looking for WorldMark units.  I did check San Diego and the only unit I found was at the Gaslamp Plaza Suites, which is not a WorldMark resort.  I guess the WorldMark San Diego resort is full of touring sales prospects.

I also do not have any data from last years RCI Getaways or Last Calls. Perhaps you could post the numbers for comparison so we can see the data showing how large of an increase there is this year over last.


----------



## PA-

There are currently 142 weeks for rent on RCI's website as Extra Vacations and 134 weeks for rent on II's website as Getaways.  It was rare to find Worldmark resorts on those lists just a year or two ago.


----------



## PerryM

FlyKaesan said:


> Perry, are you ever planning to share your secrets?
> I bought it since you said you will share it last year and I still haven't heard about it.
> I exchanged my WM for 2 weeks Orlando and I regret it soooooo much.




I've been struggling with how to release this information and not incur the wrath of the timeshare gods.  I think I finally found a way and to those who sent in the eMails a while back you will be rewarded at some point.  Hang on, I've not forgotten about you guys.


----------



## cotraveller

PA- said:


> There are currently 142 weeks for rent on RCI's website as Extra Vacations and 134 weeks for rent on II's website as Getaways.  It was rare to find Worldmark resorts on those lists just a year or two ago.



WorldMark has over 5,000 units in its 60+ resorts.  At 50 weeks per year that is 250,000 weeks available for occupancy.  The RCI Extra Vacations are predominately for now through May, or three months.  In three months there are over 62,500 weeks available in WorldMark units.  276 units available out of 62,500 doesn’t seem like a huge number, it’s about 0.4 percent.  Considering that March through May are slow travel months, 11% to 15% vacancy rates compared to 3% to 5% during the summer months, (data from the vacant night report) is seems like a good thing that the rentals are available now and not during the prime times. Looks like some weeks that may well go unused otherwise are being deposited with the exchange companies.

As for the comparison to last year, I recall seeing a lot of units during those same 3 off season months last year.  My memory is still fairly good, so until I see data to tell me differently I’ll conclude that this year is similar to last.  But then again I am not the one drawing conclusions about Wyndham rentals.


----------



## PA-

cotraveller said:


> WorldMark has over 5,000 units in its 60+ resorts.  At 50 weeks per year that is 250,000 weeks available for occupancy.  ....



What you say is correct.  

Funny thing is, when it was discovered that Perry was renting out 30 or 40 weeks per year, or whatever it is, a riot almost ensued and people wanted rule changes.  Like it or not, he was within the rules as they existed.  Of course they have the right to change rules, within the limitations imposed by the declaration and bylaws.  But Wyndham is renting out hundreds of weeks per year without the same hue and cry.  As for some or much of Wyndham's rental usage, it appears that they are violating those declarations with the knowledge of the Board.  I'm sure you'll disagree on this point, but I know that there have been some violations, confirmed in conversations with the board (though they state that Wyndham is within their rights due to differing interpretations of the declarations).  

I agree there is still an abillity for those of us savvy enough to get what we want.  As for the people who aren't diligant planners, there will always be those people, and they'll always be unhappy with the club. That's the nature of high pressure, impulse motivated sales.

None of this is of great concern to me.  I guess my main points are  

1) the board is aware of violations but taking the Wyndham party line
2) Their decisions, which are in my opinion violations of law, are making the club less valuable.  I agree with you that I'm still able to get value out of it, but I believe their decisions are affecting that value negatively each year. 

I believe that you will disagree with me on most points, and I'm ok with that.  I'll continue to enjoy Worldmark until I don't, when I'll get out.  But in the meantime, being aware of the criminal misconduct, I won't sit back and approve of it by my silence.  You're free, if you feel they are not acting criminally, to just as vigorously defend them.

While I don't understand your acceptance of some of their actions, I'm not losing sleep over your position.


----------



## BocaBum99

I think this is a fair and balanced discussion of WorldMark.  Probably one of the more helpful ones for those making a decision to either buy or sell an ownership.

I believe that Wyndham is systematically sucking out value from WorldMark and that it will continue for 10 or more years.  As a result of those systematic actions, WorldMark ownerships on the resale market will continue to decline over that time period.  What I am not sure of is whether or not Wyndham is any better or worse than any other timeshare resort developer.  I suspect a bit worse.

I also believe that WorldMark is and will continue to be a great timeshare ownership over the next 10 years.  So, if you like to travel in the West Coast and you like to exchange, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it at the current prices.  Even if it depreciates by 10% per year, you will get far more out of it than you put in if you commit yourself to mastering the rules.

I am really ambivalent about the civil war that is occurring between owners and Wyndham.  There are always lots of casualties in a civil war.  On the one hand, I believe the owners are exactly right in trying to take control of their own club.  They own it, they should be able to run it the way they want.  But, the cost of that control may be worse than the status quo.    So, for the most part, I try to stay on the sidelines.


----------



## PerryM

PA- said:


> What you say is correct.
> 
> Funny thing is, when it was discovered that *Perry was renting out 30 or 40 weeks per year*, or whatever it is, a riot almost ensued and people wanted rule changes.  Like it or not, he was within the rules as they existed.  Of course they have the right to change rules, within the limitations imposed by the declaration and bylaws.  But Wyndham is renting out hundreds of weeks per year without the same hue and cry.  As for some or much of Wyndham's rental usage, it appears that they are violating those declarations with the knowledge of the Board.  I'm sure you'll disagree on this point, but I know that there have been some violations, confirmed in conversations with the board (though they state that Wyndham is within their rights due to differing interpretations of the declarations).
> 
> I agree there is still an abillity for those of us savvy enough to get what we want.  As for the people who aren't diligant planners, there will always be those people, and they'll always be unhappy with the club. That's the nature of high pressure, impulse motivated sales.
> 
> None of this is of great concern to me.  I guess my main points are
> 
> 1) the board is aware of violations but taking the Wyndham party line
> 2) Their decisions, which are in my opinion violations of law, are making the club less valuable.  I agree with you that I'm still able to get value out of it, but I believe their decisions are affecting that value negatively each year.
> 
> I believe that you will disagree with me on most points, and I'm ok with that.  I'll continue to enjoy Worldmark until I don't, when I'll get out.  But in the meantime, being aware of the criminal misconduct, I won't sit back and approve of it by my silence.  You're free, if you feel they are not acting criminally, to just as vigorously defend them.
> 
> While I don't understand your acceptance of some of their actions, I'm not losing sleep over your position.



PA,

I'm assuming that the ignorance of facts you use with me would apply to just about everything you posted here, maybe more?

I rented 4 WM units in 2007 but I will take the complement of the staggering numbers you pulled out of your...... as a sincere complement of what I could do if I wanted to - with no problems.

In past years the rule book was totally different and yes I rented more but not the numbers you site.  But I'll take a complement from PA anytime I can get it.


----------



## PA-

Why didn't you include the next few words in the bold-face portion of your quote?  That would have made it more clear.  I don't know or care your biz, but the point is the whole "commercial abuse" issue was nothing compared to the Party Weekends/Rental violations by Wyndham.  They have admitted to booking using their credits more than 90 days in advance for rentals and promotions, which is a violation of the declarations.


----------



## PerryM

*I'll take a decaf expresso with cream please...*

WM owners will NEVER take over the WM BOD for a very simple reason – the WM BOD is the developer!

The folks trying to take over the WM BOD seem to not grasp this key point and will be doomed to failure year after year.  I’m not saying that Wyndham won’t allow someone on the BOD who is hostile towards Wyndham if it suits their needs but that person will be relegated to fetching coffee for the group.

My guess is that Wyndham won’t let that happen – they already have 5 coffee fetchers now.


----------



## cotraveller

I do enjoy a rousing discussion of the facts and non-facts but what can I add to what Perry has already said?  I think it's time to sit back and wait for the next WorldMark thread.



bruwery said:


> I guess I need the disgruntled Worldmark owners to step up their complaints...





cotraveller said:


> No problems there, I'm sure some will fullfill your request.  If they don't, that will really be a first.



I rest my case.


----------



## clinc

PerryM,
i have been reading your posts and I'm very interested in how you trade WM points in II.  I've been thinking about owning WM.  Can you please share?


----------



## FlyKaesan

Do you think 5k WM credits are better or 10k per year?
If I want 1 red br, that is 9k to exchange.

Is there secret of getting a great trader with just 5k 1 green br?  It seems like WM controls what gets put into II.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

clinc said:


> PerryM,
> i have been reading your posts and I'm very interested in how you trade WM points in II.  I've been thinking about owning WM.  Can you please share?



He does share, just search for his many WM posts as this topic is like a broken record.


----------



## PerryM

FlyKaesan said:


> Do you think 5k WM credits are better or 10k per year?
> If I want 1 red br, that is 9k to exchange.
> 
> Is there secret of getting a great trader with just 5k 1 green br?  It seems like WM controls what gets put into II.



5K is hard to find - 6k is easier and if you find you need more just buy more, resale, and in 2 weeks they are in your account and ready to go.

ka-thump ka-thump 

5K is hard to find - 6k is easier and if you find you need more just buy more, resale, and in 2 weeks they are in your account and ready to go.

ka-thump ka-thump 

5K is hard to find - 6k is easier and if you find you need more just buy more, resale, and in 2 weeks they are in your account and ready to go.


----------



## bruwery

Come on Worldmark bashers.  You can do better than this.  I've been watching the auctions and the price is still too high.

More negativity please!!


----------



## cruisin

There are not many Worldmark bashers out there that I know of. Most people I know, really like Worldmark and are extremely happy with their purchase.


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## PA-

cruisin said:


> There are not many Worldmark bashers out there that I know of. Most people I know, really like Worldmark and are extremely happy with their purchase.



That's my experience as well.  Most complaints have been about the board of directors.  The only person I've seen bash the resorts or the club is PerryM; he's an equal opportunity basher, who ridicules not only the Board, but also the resorts and the other Worldmark owners.


----------



## Mydogs2big

I've been looking at picking up a Worldmark for the last year or so, but I still don't get it!

Every one I look at, if it does have a location, it is not the one I want.

And if it has various locations including the one I want, the add reads you must already be a member.

I still haven't a clue if a non-member can become a member just by purchasing a second hand Trendwest/Worldmark TS.  Or do I have to spend $2000 or more to join-like Sunterra.  And then how about my membership fees?

Do I need to pay extra to transfer to a resort other than what is on my deed.  Or are only some of the resorts named i.e., Eagle Crest, Coos Bay, etc.  But it really means anything in the system?  Or if the resort is named, it means it is for that resort only?

And what about the housekeeping?  Does it cost an additional ? per day that I must pay, or can I just clean up after myself?

Maybe some people don't understand it enough to compete, like me!


----------



## PA-

Mydogs2big said:


> I've been looking at picking up a Worldmark for the last year or so, but I still don't get it!
> 
> Every one I look at, if it does have a location, it is not the one I want.
> 
> And if it has various locations including the one I want, the add reads you must already be a member.
> 
> I still haven't a clue if a non-member can become a member just by purchasing a second hand Trendwest/Worldmark TS.  Or do I have to spend $2000 or more to join-like Sunterra.  And then how about my membership fees?
> 
> Do I need to pay extra to transfer to a resort other than what is on my deed.  Or are only some of the resorts named i.e., Eagle Crest, Coos Bay, etc.  But it really means anything in the system?  Or if the resort is named, it means it is for that resort only?
> 
> And what about the housekeeping?  Does it cost an additional ? per day that I must pay, or can I just clean up after myself?
> 
> Maybe some people don't understand it enough to compete, like me!



Start by reading here: http://www.tug2.net/advice/worldmark.htm

The ebay auctions that list eagle crest or Schooner landing might be an auction for an ownership at just that resort (not really a worldmark ownership).  However, the ad might mention that those resorts have a special ability to exchange for worldmark credits IF YOU ARE ALREADY A WORLDMARK OWNER.


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## PerryM

*The old debating trick...*



PA- said:


> That's my experience as well.  Most complaints have been about the board of directors.  The only person I've seen bash the resorts or the club is PerryM; he's an equal opportunity basher, who ridicules not only the Board, but also the resorts and the other Worldmark owners.




PA, so what, I'm now supposed to prove I'm not a basher?  This is a debating 101 trick.

Listen folks, if you want to see why prices are falling like a lead balloon just go to WMowners.com and check for yourselves.

I say again, its not the developer - Wyndham brings thousands of happy new folks to the club each month - it's not sun spots, its fellow WM owners who seem to be scaring folks saying that the WM BOD is in the pocket of the developer and if just the "Right" owners are on the BOD everything will be just fine.  I don't buy that for a second - the remedy is worse than the cause.

That's what this thread is all about - is the developer, Wyndham going out of it's way to scare Ma and Pa into dumping their WM credits or is it fellow WM owners who seem to be scaring poor old Ma and Pa.

Don't take my word for it, go and try to read just about ANY thread on WMowners.com that isn't bashing the hell out of the developer.

Now there are plenty of dumb things that the developers have done over the year but those are tricks you can use to enrich your vacations, they don't scare anyone but fellow WM owners who aren't doing the same thing.

And you'll notice who goes around singling out fellow WM owners to criticize them - need I say more?

Check it out...find out why fellow WM owners seem to be getting scared and could very well wind up selling their credits.

P.S.

I'll let PA speak for himself check out this link and see if 250,000 fellow WM owners weren't scared out of their minds, here's 2007.  This publication went to all 250,000+ WM owners.  (PA = Phillip Abdouch)  (Let me know if the link doesn't work - I'm an owner so it might not let non-owners view this page)  This is the OFFICIAL WM web page.

No one listens to me, I'm but on WM owner.  So why all the worry over one WM owner (Me) - the guy who reaches 250,000 WM owners is the guy to ask questions of.

Something's scaring the hell out of fellow WM owners - just how much does it take to dump their credits?  It's NOT Wyndham - they bring thousands of new owners every month.  This is my answer to why WM Credits are falling in price groups of WM owners who, for whatever reason, spread this doom and gloom around, and it actually gets into their hands of ALL WM owners at home.

The WMowners.com favored PA in the last election at least that's the conclusion I came to - they are just as responsible for this fiasco that is impacting EVERY WM owner right now (All the negative comments); scared WM owners who keep asking why WM credits are falling in value.  The exact reason for this thread.

You can't have tens of thousands of developer bashing posts and candidates to the WM BOD doing the same thing without consequences - even if they don't want to admit to them.


----------



## jbcoug

Perry,

Crank up your broken record again. You never say anything new.

John


----------



## PerryM

jbcoug said:


> Perry,
> 
> Crank up your broken record again. You never say anything new.
> 
> John



Practice makes perfect.

So what reasons do you believe that Ma and Pa want to dump their WM credits at firesale prices?

P.S.
It would be helpful if you could put us at the kitchen table as Ma and Pa discuss running an eBay ad to dump their credits.  What do they know and why is that knowledge so upsetting to them that they will practically give their credits away.

Just what have they gotten in the mail, web sites, at chat rooms, or talking to fellow WM owners to have them in a panic?

P.P.S.
Anyone can answer this question - as long as concrete examples of what actually goes on in their minds as they hope to get something for their WM credits.  What is scaring these people - you know my theory - I've given places for you to check out and articles to read.  Just where are similar concrete examples that Ma and Pa have read?

Are there articles in the newspaper pointing out valid reasons for WM owners to dump their credits?  Are there blogs, not WMowners, where many WM owners gather to discuss these topics?  Just where do Ma and Pa go to get scared out of their minds?  You know my theory, what's yours?


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## PA-

Perry, over 2 years ago, when the same folks who created Fairshare Plus began making noises about a VIP program at Worldmark, you predicted resale prices of Worldmark credits would plummet to Fairfield type lows. You've repeated that prediction many times.  By the way, you certainly were not the first to do so, many of us knew the end game.  Now you are disavowing that reason?

When the developer makes resale credits worth less, they tend to sell for less.  And while TravelShare to this point may not have significant impacts, the fact that their sales force is using TravelShare as a scare tactic to warn people away from resale credits may well have an impact.  And believe me, they are definately telling prospects that if they buy on the resale market, they won't be able to exchange their credits in the future, they won't be able to get into the newer resorts, and all sorts of other scare tactics.

Well, now the prices have begun to fall, as most knew they would, and you've found a new target to blame.

So to summarize, here's the theories put forward.

1)  I believe the developer's actions, including travelshare, have more to do with the fall than anything

2)  One person believes the developer has done nothing wrong and it's all the fault of the market being jittery.

3)  And one person has said that it's a combination; bad moves by the developer along with a jittery, scared market.  

Take your pick, it might be hard to prove one over the other.  I guess one way you could find out is by asking the people who resell worldmark for a living, like the owner of TLS or Redseason or others.  The question is, is a higher percentage of owners selling today vs. the past?

Remember, it doesn't matter WHY the sellers are selling.  Once they list on ebay, it's entirely up to the buyers.  So if the number of ebay listings are about the same, are they valuing them less than they did because they see less value or more risk in buying non-TravelShare qualified ownerships, or because they read all the negativity toward the Board of Directors.  When a bidder sees that it takes 15,000 credits to get a 1 bedroom at San Diego, they're going to value 6000 credits much differently than they used to, when a 1 bedroom would take only 8,000 credits.  That's just common sense.

My experience is that the vast majority of ebay buyers, owners, prospects, etc. don't do that much due diligence.  The vast majority certainly don't read any forums.  

There are many more people on TUG advising not to buy resale than there are on wmowners decrying the Board's malfeasance.  And TUG has MUCH higher participation and readership.  Yet people still buy from developers in record numbers.


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## BocaBum99

I believe that the precipitous drop in resale value of WorldMark credits is a combination of the Developer taking bold actions that is reducing the resale market value of WorldMark credits (TravelShare and violation of relative use rules, etc) AND a small group of owners shining light on those actions for all to see.  The net result is less demand for resale credits.  How much the split is doesn't matter as much as the trendline for the future value decreases.

I believe that Perry's position is the following.  I would like for Perry to acknowledge or reject any of these assertions.  Or, to provide an alternative rationale:

a) it's foolhardy for the owners to fight the developer because they can't win.

b) Wyndham is taking actions that reduces the resale value of credits, but as long as the rules are left as they are, educated owners can get more value out of it than they lose.  So, all things being equal, it's pretty good.

c) Since the battle against Wyndham isn't winnable, the best course of action is to let the developer do whatever they want.  If the owners would just keep quiet, the resale market will drop at a slower rate thereby making the gravy train last longer.

d) Don't be an uneducated owner.  If you do, the educated ones and the Developer will pick your pocket and eat your lunch.  But, we need you in the game so we can play ours.  Please keep doing it.  It's your choice to not do the thing that is in your best interest.  That some are capitalizing on your mistakes is your problem, not theirs.

e) When someone can't get more value out of WorldMark when adjusted for the losses due to the developer, just dump it.  When that time comes, you will have taken so much value out of the Club in that period that things will be peachy.

Be honest Perry.  This is a good summary of your position on WorldMark and Wyndham, isn't it?

This explains why you are attacking the wmowners group and will not acknowledge that any of their points are valid.  You just see them as a group who will hasten the date at which you will need to dump your WorldMark ownership.

As I have said elsewhere, I am ambivalent about the actions of the wmowners team.  I believe their mission is right.  Owners own the Club and the Board should represent their interests above all others.  So, because of that, I must cede the point that trying to achieve an independent board is a noble objective.

What I am unsure of is a) whether or not the civil war between wmowners and the board can achieve any meaningful change and b) whether or not an owner governed Club would result in expansion or contraction of the Club.  And whether or not that would be a good thing.

I would prefer a compromise where owners are given more board positions and some oversight to prevent egregious devaluation of resale credits.  And even a stated and measured objective to keep resale values above a certain minimum level or the developer buys them back.


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## rickandcindy23

Knowledgeable eBay buyers= limited number 

eBay listings of properties= forever growing as more people become disenchanted with timeshare ownership

Therefore:

Excess properties, buyers that already bought what they need (but some of us will buy more at lower prices), and now there is a glut of properties with no one wanting them for the prices of three years ago.

Pretty sad, but I think it's truly happening this way.  What a marvelous time to purchase timeshare on eBay, but what a sad thing that values between retail and resale are always getting further apart.


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## spatenfloot

PerryM said:


> So what reasons do you believe that Ma and Pa want to dump their WM credits at firesale prices?



Most likely it is because of the general economy and people not having the money to buy luxuries like timeshares. Fewer bidders=lower prices. People in financial trouble will sell lower just to get rid of the MF/payments.

I doubt that anything happening at WMowners has much of an effect of prices. The vast majority of owners have never heard of the website. The ones who have heard of it are generally those who are not happy with Wyndham in the first place.


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## cruisin

Also, agressive sales practices by Wyndham have gotten a lot of people to buy in that really do not want timeshare, or can afford it. The result is a mass dumping of accounts on the resell market. Is there any other timeshare companies that let you buy in with absolutely $0 down. Simple supply and demand. The more Wyndham sales to these people, the greater the supply of resell accounts will be on the open market.


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## cotraveller

PerryM said:


> No one listens to me, I'm but on WM owner.  So why all the worry over one WM owner (Me)



That one is easy to answer.  It's politics, WorldMark politics.  You aren't preaching the party line therefore you must be discredited.  Normal political maneuvering.


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## PerryM

*Sell if you don't like it - it's just a timeshare for goodness sakes..*

Gee the tag team of PA and BB, you can distract all you want; there is nothing to worry about guys – I’m just one WM owner out of 250,000 and my opinions are used for my usage of WM which is just a timeshare.

My strategies of using WM for vacations are all I care about.  If WM underperforms as a timeshare it will join the 5 Marriott’s I sold.  Sadly this will be at a loss but you can’t win every business transaction.

My suggestion to WM owners is to forget all this plotting and scheming – just use your WMs and go on vacation.  The developer will be the developer and will do things that are first and foremost in the interests of their stockholders and will not kill the Golden Goose, WM.

All I ask is that you WM owners look at who is bashing who – find just ONE article, ONE official proclamation, ONE of anything that besmirches WM the Club, by Wyndham, and I will gladly say that I’m wrong and all you guys are correct.  I doubt you will ever find one and you must ask yourselves just where all this fear is coming from.

The 5 WM owners on the WM BOD are elected by you owners to represent your interests to the developer.  So far they see the wisdom of not starting a nuclear war with the developer and every year the number of WM owners increases.

Conclusion:
WM is a timeshare designed to give you owners great vacations – it has, it does, and it will.  If you want to use WM for any other purpose, like fighting corporate giants, or class action lawsuits, then I guess that’s another benefit to owning WM, and you should thank Wyndham.

Me, I’m planning 2009 vacations and they look just great so far using WM.

P.S.
Notice how this debate turns into the normal stuff over at "the other web site" - it's all political and notice that the developer isn't here bashing folks around, it's fellow WM owners.  Any wonder why resale credits are tanking - the developer doesn't have one thing to say about resale credits - fellow WM owners do.


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## BocaBum99

PerryM said:


> Gee the tag team of PA and BB, you can distract all you want; there is nothing to worry about guys – I’m just one WM owner out of 250,000 and my opinions are used for my usage of WM which is just a timeshare.
> 
> My strategies of using WM for vacations are all I care about.  If WM underperforms as a timeshare it will join the 5 Marriott’s I sold.  Sadly this will be at a loss but you can’t win every business transaction.
> 
> My suggestion to WM owners is to forget all this plotting and scheming – just use your WMs and go on vacation.  The developer will be the developer and will do things that are first and foremost in the interests of their stockholders and will not kill the Golden Goose, WM.
> 
> All I ask is that you WM owners look at who is bashing who – find just ONE article, ONE official proclamation, ONE of anything that besmirches WM the Club, by Wyndham, and I will gladly say that I’m wrong and all you guys are correct.  I doubt you will ever find one and you must ask yourselves just where all this fear is coming from.
> 
> Conclusion:
> WM is a timeshare designed to give you owners great vacations – it has, it does, and it will.  If you want to use WM for any other purpose, like fighting corporate giants, or class action lawsuits, then I guess that’s another benefit to owning WM, and you should thank Wyndham.
> 
> Me, I’m planning 2009 vacations and they look just great so far using WM.



Not sure why you say it's a tag team.  I like and admire PA for what he is doing, but I didn't vote in the election for the WorldMark board.  I am pretty apolitical.   Like I said, I am not sure if an independent board will result in a net positive for owners.

I like that we are getting a lot of new resorts in WorldMark.  And, I love the Club.  Both the resorts AND its trading power.  In addition, I said that I don't post much on the wmowners board.  When I do, it is sometimes against the conventional wisdom.  

I'm just calling it as I see it.

I did my best to try to characterize the views that you have expressed on these boards.  And, you are not simply trying to enjoy the Club and plan your next vacation.  You are actively promoting that the owners are hurting the Club.  You may be right, but don't do it and then deny it.  It just undermines your credibility on the topic.


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## PerryM

*Want to get sick - do the following...*

WM is to me another arrow in my quiver that I use to bag a fantastic vacation.  It has a purpose, mainly II exchanges, that it does extremely well.  Its second purpose is as a backup vacation that we might be forced to take – it’s still a 5-star timeshare but not our first choice.

Don’t get me wrong, Wyndham has lots of faults that a WM owner can use to their benefit.  So don’t put me in the category of the developer being perfect, they are not.  I don’t see any of these faults as being espoused by sellers of MW credits on the resale market.  The resale WM credit market is thin and just like the stock market is driven by rumors.

Rumors can drive the prices up or down, it depends on the kind of rumors.  If timeshare salesreps spread rumors they can impact resales negatively.  Marriott salesreps are just as guilty as Wyndham salesreps at spreading rumors that negatively impact resales AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE.  Ma and Pa are exposed to these rumors at the time of purchase NOT years later when other rumors float around and cause them to panic and dump their credits.  I can’t blame the Wyndham salesrep at the tail end of ownership, I can chastise them for the front end.

If you want an endless supply of rumors, really nasty rumors, false assumptions, and all kinds of talk of lawsuits Wyndham is NOT that source it is easily found by doing a Google search and rumor upon rumor will demoralize just about any WM owner – even one very happy with their usage.

If you owners are bored right now and want to get scared do a Google search of “*WorldMark credit dilution*” and watch what pops up.  Want to get a little queasy in the stomach start reading all the rumors out there.  That’s what they are – all rumors based upon unsupported assumptions. 

Depending on how depressed you want to get today I can give a list of probably 10 phrases that will have you wondering if it isn’t time to dump your WM credits.

The developer is NOT the source of all this dribble – fellow WM owners are.  That's my answer to the OPs question.


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## melschey

Pit said:


> Isn't this a more likely, and logical, explanation for the drop in prices? I don't know, but it sounds like a genuine devaluation of credits.




I never thought that all 2-bedroom red weeks should be 10,000 credits. If Wyndham were bring on higher quality resorts I think they should get more credits. The problem is that new resorts generally are smaller units and not in desireable locatiuons and Wyndham is charging more credits. They are charging more for less.

Come on, how can you justify 15000 credits for a 1-bedroom hotel room an San Diego with no pool, no hot tub and you pay to park. 

I do agree with Perry that WM is great for exchanging. I get great exchanges through II often on Flexchange. I don't worry about the new resorts as I don't plan on using them. We still manage to get into the coast resorts in the shoulder season. If it gets to where we can't get into our older favorite resorts and can't get decent exchanges we will just dump WM. I don't think that will happen for quite a while though.


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## melschey

Steamboat Bill said:


> As a non-WM owner, I am not privy to any of the WM bashing, but these resale prices seem a huge bargain compared to buying a Marriott.
> 
> Here is my questions:
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Why do people really care if a new property takes 12k or 15k or 20k to reserve vs the old price of 10k if they are getting a better property with better features like granite, leather, stainless steel, nicer pool areas, etc.? In other words, if you want new properties at killer locations, then I think WM has a RIGHT to charge more for the rental vs a 15 year old timeshare in a non-resort area and no A/C.
> 
> QUOTE]
> If this were the case I would have no problem. The truth is the new resorts for the most part not close the quality of older resorts like Eagle Crest, or
> Depoe Bay. They are buying distressed property doing a quick fix up and charging far higher credits.
> 
> I do use WM mainly for exchanging with II and it is a great value for that. That is not the way most WM owners use their membership though.


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## PerryM

*Ok, I'll shoot one rumor to hell...*

I’ll explain Credit Devaluation – that’s the bug hubba bubba on chat rooms now driving down WM resale prices.  (I’m going to shorten up this long explanation and leave out mind numbing math examples)

WM was founded by some thermo-pane window salesreps in the early 1990's– what better way to sell more windows than to get folks to buy old condos in need of new windows.  (I hope you are impressed as to how little thought went into WM by the founders).

A sort of standard started in the early 1990’s – buy old condos needing new windows and when the numbers are run they needed a 2BR Red week to cost 10,000 WM credits.  That’s no magic number; it’s just one the salesreps pulled out of their butts.

Fast forward to 2008 and Wyndham, the developer, builds some condos or buys some newer condos and when the numbers are worked out they need 15,000 WM credits for a 2BR Red week.

Now if you believe in the tooth fairy you will believe that 1990 condos in need of new windows is equivalent to today’s condos.   

This is the fallacy of “Credit Dilution”, that the developer can charge higher and higher rates and that the new owner wants to stay at a new resort AND 1990’s resorts that are nowhere near new condos.

The fatal flaw in WM is this – new owners are buying a basket of old and new condos to use.  Some are in Maui, Whistler, and Orlando and some are in the middle of corn fields in Illinois.

The developer, Wyndham, instantly recognized that the “Theory of Equals”, which is another name for this crazy scheme, does not what work in the real world with WM.  So Wyndham dumped it and made it well known to the owners – a very large yawn could be heard that day from the owners.  They don’t have a clue about this – it’s like Relativity Theory.

So for all those WM owners who love going back to those early WM condos – don’t worry the new owner is being sold newer WMs’ (In their mind).  Is it going to get harder and harder to get a hot holiday week at a hot location – you betcha.  Marriott has this same problem, so do other timeshares.

*So there is NO credit dilution problem* – Wyndham doesn’t use that broken model anymore!  What should we do?  Wyndham isn’t going to reverse its decision and folks who bought resale can still use those resorts that were available on the day of purchase at the same old rates.

And to prove that the “Theory of Equals” or “Credit Dilution” was never a problem the Hawaiian WM’s cost 20% more than the mainland ones – and that was done many many years ago.  There was no bellyaching back then – common sense prevailed and obviously Hawaiian resorts cost more than Oregon resorts.  Hello!

Did you know that the state of Hawaii forbids this kind of timeshare ownership?  Wyndham can't sell one WM Credit on Hawaiian soil - this should set off alarm bells that the existing WM founding setup has problems that Wyndham must work around for our enjoyment of our club - thanks Wyndham.  This is more proof, from a state in this case, that the founding setup has problems and Wyndham is addressing them.


Then to top it off Wyndham did WM owners a HUGE favor - with new resorts costing more credits they don't force you to buy WM credits from them or even resale - they now allow you to rent UNLIMITED amount of WM credits from other WM owners for pennies.  Try to do that with a Marriott.

I can go thru rumor afer rumor, hoax after hoax, and demonstrate that this is all just hyperbole – pounding of the chest to somehow make some WM owners feel better, or less bored.


Sadly the consequence of just this one rumor is enough to get the blood pressure up and the heart pounding - sell sell sell sell.

*P.S. (If you want to read a little more...I've explained the Credit Devaluation hoax already)*

What makes WM unique in the timeshare world is the basket of 60+ WM resorts ANY WM credit can be used to exchange into.  This goes for studios, 1BRs, 2BRs, 3BRs, 4BR penthouses in these resorts.

You get no deed to a specific unit – you get membership in a club that owns them.  Wyndham’s great problem is selling this aging basket of 5,000+ condos.  Some are gems and some are dogs.  Some are high demand and some they can’t give away.

The “Theory of Equals” works fine if the new owner is paying for a NEW condo.  That’s not the case with WM – the new owner is buying access to some corn field condos in February where the only thing going on is ice fishing.

Thus the developer, Wyndham, can only charge an average price for WM credits over the 5,000 aging condos.  They can only get $1.98 a WM credit today.  If they could get $3.00 they could still offer new condos for 10,000 per 2BR Red week.  This is the exact reason that 15,000 WM credits for a 2BR Red week is needed now for newer condos that Wyndham is turning over to WM debt free for our usage.

The folks hell bent on defaming the developer don’t seem to be able to understand this concept and stomp their feet and say 10,000 credits is the rule – it don’t work like that in the real world folks.  (Personally I think they get it but it sure riles up the WM owners, to the point of selling their WM credits to escape this made up nightmare) - thus they have a reason to take over the WM BOD - the cry of Credit Devaluation.

I hope you don't buy into this hoax and the other hoaxes these folks stand for and the primary reason why WM credit prices are falling like lead balloons - your fellow WM owners and not the developer Wyndham.


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