# Florence/Pisa Traffic Cameras, Big Fine for Driving Rental Car in City Center



## Conan (Oct 15, 2011)

Call it a scam, or call it a legitimate effort to protect center-city zones from auto intruders.

Our flight to Italy landed in Pisa Galileo Airport where we rented a car.  Our destination was Assisi but we figured we'd detour past the Leaning Tower.  We weren't going to park the car (with all our luggage) so we only wanted to drive by.

Thinking the Tower must be in the City Center, we started by heading there and soon learned it's actually a few km out of town.  Found it, stopped briefly, and continued on to Assisi.

Six months later an unexplained $50 or so charge from the rental car company showed up on our credit card.  I figured it was a fuel charge or some hours of late return, so I paid.

Three months after that, I today get an Italian-certified letter assessing a 121 euro fine (described as a "special reduced payment" if I pay within 60 days).  Not a speeding ticket.  Not a parking ticket.  It's because I drove the car through the restricted Pisa city center on my misguided way from the airport to the Tower.  (So far I haven't received any ticket for stopping next to the Tower.)  I've since found websites that tell of tourists, lost and driving in circles, getting multiple tickets one for each time they drove past the camera.

And it turns out the rental car company charge was their administrative fee for providing my home address to the Municipality of Pisa.  The fine remains unpaid (well, I have 59 more days to decide if I want to pay it; after 60 days I think it will double).  There's my conscience to deal with, and also my fear of consequences.  

I live in the U.S. and I won't soon be renting or driving another car in Italy.  I will however be renting a car in another EU country next year.  Any idea, if I don't pay this fine, whether my 'record' will cause problems?



> *Florence:*  Of the 859,959 traffic violations that issued by traffic police in 2008, 457,613 were issued to motorists who entered the limited traffic zones without the required permit; 250,415 were given to drivers who parked in no-parking zones; 22,904 were issued for speeding; and 7,700 were given for having run a red light.  http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm


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## Rene McDaniel (Oct 15, 2011)

You don't say the name of the rental car company.  Was it a European rental car company or one with American ties like National/Eurorent, Hertz, etc. ?

I am surprised that Pisa is sending you the fine and not the rental car company.  If the rental car company comes after you, you are most likely stuck because they have your credit card number,   In the fine print of the contract you probably agreed to be liable for any FINES incurred during your rental, so they could end up paying Pisa the fee, then turning around & billing your credit card.

Since you found some others online who have also had this happen, you may want to search the internet to find out the outcome for others.  Does they back off & go away, or do they then charge the rental car companies, and have them go after you?

We once got hit with a 500 euro charge to our credit card after we returned home from National/Eurorent and I don't think my husband was ever successful in getting the charge reversed.  It wasn't even legit.  We picked up the car in Paris & returned it in Munich, but the return desk was not staffed & had a sign saying to drop the keys & contract in the secured box, which we did.  Later when we got home, they told us we kept the car an extra week and dropped it in Nice (nope).  It was a nightmare of letters, phone calls to Europe.  It was insane, but they finally agreed we did return the car when/where we said. But I don't know that we ever got that money refunded.

My advice.  More research to better understand what you are dealing with.

--- Rene


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## Conan (Oct 16, 2011)

The rental was from Europcar.  The web reports I've seen say that the rental companies don't pay/collect the fine.  They cooperate by supplying the authorities with the renter's home address, charge the credit card their administrative fee, and they're done. 

Anyway the certified letter I got was from the Comune of Pisa.  The web reports say there's a possibility there will be follow up from a collection agency but not always.  A fairly hollow threat since there's no jurisdiction for them to sue in the US.

My concern is whether I'll be in some EU database if I don't pay up.


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## Pompey Family (Oct 16, 2011)

I wouldn't pay it.  It's non enforcable and as you're a US resident there's nothing they can do about it.  Don't worry about being on an EU database, there isn't one.  Pretty much all the tickets issued in the UK to non-uk drivers end up being binned because they're never paid and there's no way of enforcing what is essentially a civil debt in another country.  That's the reason many European police officers will insist on you paying the fine there and then if they catch you speeding etc whereas the UK police are not allowed to collect fines, they have to issue a ticket.

Just check out the US Embassy in London.  They owe millions in unpaid parking fines, congestion charges etc.  The biggest foreign fine dodgers in London!


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## Carolinian (Oct 16, 2011)

I would be most concerned about renting another car in Italy, or perhaps having some law enforcement contact in Italy where this might come up.  Maybe it would even pop up in going through immigration at the airport.  Otherwise, I don't think such info is shared, but I would check on the experience of others to be sure.

The ''police state'' aspect of traffic cameras has always bothered me.  If a policeman stops you, then you know whether the stop is legitimate or may be questonable, but when they mail you a ticket, sometimes months later, there is simply no way to know whether it is legit or not.

Before I moved to Europe, a radio station I listened to in eastern NC had morning DJ's who used to give a weird or bizzarre story on the air each morning.  Once while while driving to court, I heard one dealing with UK speed cameras.  A Brit got a ticket in the mail alleging that he had been driving 700+ MPH on a particular motorway on a certain date and time.  The DJ read his letter of response to the local authorities stating that his vehicle was not capable of anything close to 700 MPH as he drove an old Toyota not a jumbo jet and asking the fine be dismissed.  The letter he got back, apparently a form letter, told him that if the camera said he was driving 700 MPH then he was driving 700 MPH and he had better pay up!

The one thing I liike about getting a good map in the UK is that they show all the speed camera locations, so I have never had one of those nasty surprises.

I had a friend who had a lead foot generally rent a car for two weeks in the UK, not knowing about speed cameras, and when he learned about them on his return, he took preemptive action by cancelling the credit card he had used for the rental.  Sure enough, he got letters from the rental car company about mulitple speeding tickets but just ignored them.


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## Carolinian (Oct 16, 2011)

Of course, embassies have something that probably no Tugger has, and that is diplomatic immunity.  There are also millions in unpaid parking / traffic fines of various embassies in Washington, DC and New York (the UN) from various embassies for the same reason.



Pompey Family said:


> I wouldn't pay it.  It's non enforcable and as you're a US resident there's nothing they can do about it.  Don't worry about being on an EU database, there isn't one.  Pretty much all the tickets issued in the UK to non-uk drivers end up being binned because they're never paid and there's no way of enforcing what is essentially a civil debt in another country.  That's the reason many European police officers will insist on you paying the fine there and then if they catch you speeding etc whereas the UK police are not allowed to collect fines, they have to issue a ticket.
> 
> Just check out the US Embassy in London.  They owe millions in unpaid parking fines, congestion charges etc.  The biggest foreign fine dodgers in London!


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## Pompey Family (Oct 16, 2011)

Carolinian said:


> Of course, embassies have something that probably no Tugger has, and that is diplomatic immunity.  There are also millions in unpaid parking / traffic fines of various embassies in Washington, DC and New York (the UN) from various embassies for the same reason.



Diplomatic immunity or not.  It's a matter of courtesy.  Many embassies pay theirs so why shouldn't others.  Of course, not all embassy staff are entitled to immunity so what's their excuse!


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## Passepartout (Oct 16, 2011)

Back to the original subject...... I think the bottom line is..IF you plan to go back to an EU country- and more so- plan to rent a car in Italy, consider it a cost of travel education and pay the fine. IF you aren't going to EU anytime in the foreseeable future, blow it off.

I kinda doubt they'll extradite for a traffic fine.

Jim


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## Talent312 (Oct 16, 2011)

I once drove thru Florence's city center while trying to return a rental car. The garage was on a one-way street which lead out from ahe city center, and AFAIK, there was no other way in.

Later, there was an extra charge on our card, which I surmise was a fee related to a fine. We never rec'd a notice, but if we had, I would not feel guilty about stiffing Florence given the circumstances.


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## Jimster (Oct 17, 2011)

*car*

This is just another good reason to take the train.  It is cheaper and easier.  I think the only place i'd rent a car in Europe is Germany or maybe Spain.


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## Margariet (Oct 18, 2011)

Conan said:


> Call it a scam, or call it a legitimate effort to protect center-city zones from auto intruders.
> 
> Our flight to Italy landed in Pisa Galileo Airport where we rented a car.  Our destination was Assisi but we figured we'd detour past the Leaning Tower.  We weren't going to park the car (with all our luggage) so we only wanted to drive by.
> 
> ...



No, your Italian ticket will not cause any problems with renting in another country. However it is serious that they even bother to find your home address and mailed you. I have never heard that before. Even within Europe you often hear nothing about tickets received in other countries with your own car.


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## Cotswolder (Oct 18, 2011)

I have received a ticket for speeding whilst in Spain. The Spanish law will track you through the rental company and issue with a fine which can be paid online.

So, if driving in Spain, beware of the speed camera


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