# 2010 Maintenance Fee Thread



## tlpnet

[I want to start a comprehensive list of all resorts at the top of this thread and the only way to keep it at the top is to put it in your post - hope you don't mind! Thanks for starting the thread! DeniseM ]

*2010 Maintenance fees without ARDA or SVN fee*


Harborside Atlantis (Phase 1 - Sm. 1 bdm.) - $1441.14
Harborside Atlantis (Phase 1 - 2 bdm. L/O) - $2979.24

Lakeside Terrace (Silver 2 bdm.) - $526.73
Lakeside Terrace (Plat 2 bdm.) - $894.61

Sheraton Broadway Plantation (1 bdm. Dlx) - $391.15
Sheraton Broadway Plantation (1 bdm.) - $500.48
Sheraton Broadway Plantation (Premium 1 bdm.) - $712.03 
Sheraton Broadway Plantation (2 bdm.) - $881.62
Sheraton Broadway Plantation, Palmetto (2 bdm. L/O) - $967.40
Sheraton Broadway Plantation, Palmetto (Dedicated 2 bdm. EOY) - $354.23 
Sheraton Broadway Plantation (2 bdm. L/O) - $1103.18


Sheraton Desert Oasis (EOY Lg. 1 bdm) - $325.62
Sheraton Desert Oasis (Sm. 1 bdm.) - $518.63
Sheraton Desert Oasis (Lg. 1 bdm.) - $ 611.25
Sheraton Desert Oasis (2 bdm.) - $889.08

Sheraton Steamboat Springs (EOY 2 bdm.) - $714.93

Sheraton Mountain Vista (Small 1 bdm.) - $651.11
Sheraton Mountain Vista (Large 1 bdm.) - $810.01
Sheraton Mountain Vista (2 bdm. lockoff) - $1,160.92  

Sheraton Vistana Resort - Cascades (Sm. 1 bdm) - $674.17
Sheraton Vistana Resort - Cascades (2 bdm) - $835.06
Sheraton Vistana Resort - Cascades (2 bdm. L/O) - $1065.11
Sheraton Vistana Resort - Falls (2 bdm.) - $714.50
Sheraton Vistana Resort - Fountains I (2 bdm.) - $801.69
Sheraton Vistana Resort - Fountains II (2 bdm.) - $942.52 
Sheraton Vistant Resort - Lakes (2 bdm.) - $923.27
Sheraton Vistana Resort - Springs (2 bdm.) - $795.19

Sheraton Vistana Villages - Bella (1 bdm.) - $596.91 
Sheraton Vistana Villages - Bella (2 bdm.) -1,194.19  
Sheraton Vistana Villages - Bella  (2 bdm. L/O) - $1,534
Sheraton Vistana Villages - Key West (1 bdm.) - $563.37
Sheraton Vistana Villages - Key West (2 bdm.) - $1,062.73

Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas (2 bdm.) - $ 2,346.36
Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas (2 bdm. Dlx) - $3,076.69

Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas North (2 bdm.) - $2479.60

Westin Kierland Villas (EOY 1 bdm.) - $398.88
Westin Kierland Villa (Small 1 bdm.) - $479.54
Westin Kierland Villa (Lg. 1 bdm.) - $757.76
Westin Kierland Villas (2 bm. L/O) - $1,237.30

Westin Lagunamar
1BR Studio - $448.84 ($385.40 assessment + $63.44 replacement reserve)
1BR Premium - $758.60 ($651.38 + $107.22)
2BR Lockoff - $1207.44 ($1036.78 + $170.66)

Westin Mission Hills
2BR LO EY - $1,484.76

Westin Princeville
2 BR LO EY - $ 2,373.90 (including SVN fee)

Westin St. John - these figures include the SA of Approx. $625, but do not include taxes
3BR Pool Villa EY - $3,439.31 
3BR Pool Villa EOY - $1,719.66 
Terrace Suite - $1,719.53
Townhouse Suite - $2,992.79
2BR Townhouse - $2,866.05
2BR Premium - $3,439.07
3BR Premium - $3.439.31​

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vistana Resort - Springs

Operating Assessment - $616.81
Replacement Reserve - $95.48
Estimated Real Estate Tax - $82.90
SVN Fee - $0.00 *
ARDA Contribution - $0.00 **

TOTAL - $795.19

Increase over 2009 - $98.77 / 14.2%

* No charge - additional week
** Not paying


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## DeniseM

Did you get your bill already, or is this from mystarcentral.com?


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## tlpnet

DeniseM said:


> Did you get your bill already, or is this from mystarcentral.com?


 
Got the bill*s*. With the bills, there is a shiny newsletter that discusses the MF delinquencies and the cost-savings initiatives. And...

"To help improve the Association's cash flow, we are offering a special incentive to Owners. When you play your maintenance fee early, you will receive valuable money-saving certificates for use at Starwood hotels and resorts and be automatically entered for a chance to win great prizes, like up to 1,000,000 Starpoints from the Starwood Preferred Guest program. This is our way of thanking you for paying early."

"Pay your maintenance fee and taxes in full, as early as October 15, 2009, and receive two valuable certificates: 50% off your special Owner rate at Starwood Vacation Ownership resorts; and 50% off retail rates at participating Starwood hotels and resorts."

And the kicker... Due date: January 4, 2010. This when SVR maintenance fees used to be due throughout the year based on your ownership week. Last year my Wk 41 was due in July.

-tim


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## DeniseM

> 50% off your special Owner rate at Starwood Vacation Ownership resorts



We know the hotel coupon is worthless, but I wonder what the "real" value of the other coupon is?


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## Iwant2gonow

I just recieved my bill today (the early payment coupon expired already...such a deal!:hysterical: ...so Starwood)

Vistana Resort - Lakes

Operating Assessment - $656.38
Replacement Reserve - $125.43
Estimated Real Estate Tax - $141.56
SVN Fee - $0.00 *
ARDA Contribution - $0.00 **

TOTAL - $923.27

Increase over 2009 - $123.00 / 15.4%
I'm not happy ...but if it stays this way for 3 to 5 years that would be nice...but doubtful.


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## tlpnet

It has no value to me as I don't need additional time at SVO resorts. I'm thinking of the additional chunk of money I have to drop by January 4th especially if the 14% increase is indicative of the resorts across the board. My head is starting to hurt.


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## tomandrobin

Wow....MFs bills already! 

14.2% increase in a deep recession.....ugh.


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## LisaRex

tomandrobin said:


> Wow....MFs bills already!
> 14.2% increase in a deep recession.....ugh.



The higher the MFs go, the easier it is to just walk away.


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## jimpia

Just received the MF bill for WSJ.  For a 3 bedroom pool villa the fee is up to $3439.31 which is a $480.29 (13%) increase from last year - and that doesn't include $109 yearly membership fee. 
The villa better be in pristine condition when we get there this Dec. - with the way the fees keep going up it may not be worth it anymore!


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## malyons

$3400    I hope that place is every bit as nice as i've read and then some.  Anyone out there w/ a Fountains unit received their bill?  I already got slapped with a 12% increase on my DRI timeshare, hoping the damage isn't too bad on vistana, but haven't received my bill yet


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## nodge

tomandrobin said:


> Wow....MFs bills already!
> 
> 14.2% increase in a deep recession.....ugh.



Interesting . . . if you take the maintenance fees of an SVO resort with a high maintenance fee (like say WKORV at $2300ish) and an SVO resort with low maintenance fee (like say WKV at $1200ish) and average them, you get an average maint fee of $1750/villa.  If you then apply this 14.2% increase to that average maint fee, you get an average increase of $248.50/villa.

Here is one theory to explain why this 14.2% increase number ($250ish/villa increase) was selected by our friends at SVO.  Does anybody have any better data or theories?

-nodge


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## DavidnRobin

jimpia said:


> Just received the MF bill for WSJ.  For a 3 bedroom pool villa the fee is up to $3439.31 which is a $480.29 (13%) increase from last year - and that doesn't include $109 yearly membership fee.
> The villa better be in pristine condition when we get there this Dec. - with the way the fees keep going up it may not be worth it anymore!



I received the WSJ letter yesterday - and haven't had a chance to look closely, but...

it my calculations are correct - the increase in WSJ (Hillside) base MFs is 25%
{w/o the special assessment} - if this is correct - someone on the WSJ HOA better have a good explanation.


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## DanCali

*The US Economy in 2009*

Below is a table showing how average prices of consumer goods and services changed over the past 12 months in the US. 

I do not want to make any accusations towards Starwood, but personally I don't see anything (not even energy costs, discussed in another thread) that justifies an average increase in MFs next year, let alone these crazy hikes. 

Given that Starwood US resorts are in AZ, CA, CO, FL, HI, and SC that's somewhat representative of the US economy. Maybe some of the resorts should have small increases, some small decreses (maybe in our dreams) and overall average increase across these resorts should tiny to none.

Judge for yourself if you are getting ripped off by your HOA and/or Starwood.

------------------------------------------------------------------

*CPI % Change for 12-mos. Ended Sep 2009*

All items -1.3%

Food -0.2%​Food at home -2.5%​Food away from home 2.6%​
Energy -21.6%​Energy commodities -30.1%​Gasoline (all types) -29.7%​Fuel oil -36.0%​Energy services -8.0%​Electricity -0.1%​Utility (piped) gas service -28.0%​ 
All items less food and energy 1.5%

Commodities less food and energy 1.6%​New vehicles 1.6%​Used cars and trucks -2.7%​Apparel 1.1%​Medical care commodities 4.1%​
Services less energy services 1.5%​Shelter 0.7%​Transportation services 2.0%​Medical care services 3.3%​

source (P. 1 - Table A)


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## Loriannf

*Still waiting SVO response*

After seeing the WSJ letter yesterday, I called to inquire why the fees were so high.  I was told it was due to "deliquencies" and costs associated with them.  I had some other questions, like how to contact someone on the board and whether or not the refurbishment came in under budget, and was told someone would get back to me.

Not holding my breath

Lori


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## nodge

Iwant2gonow said:


> I just recieved my bill today (the early payment coupon expired already...such a deal!:hysterical: ...so Starwood)
> 
> Vistana Resort - Lakes
> 
> Operating Assessment - $656.38
> Replacement Reserve - $125.43
> Estimated Real Estate Tax - $141.56
> SVN Fee - $0.00 *
> ARDA Contribution - $0.00 **
> 
> TOTAL - $923.27
> 
> Increase over 2009 - $123.00 / 15.4%
> I'm not happy



Well at least that $923.27/week fee is still a way better deal than what a non-owner could rent a week at VR for.  Oh wait.  Nevermind.

Please make sure to let SVO know what you think of this news here.

-nodge


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## DavidnRobin

Loriannf said:


> After seeing the WSJ letter yesterday, I called to inquire why the fees were so high.  I was told it was due to "deliquencies" and costs associated with them.  I had some other questions, like how to contact someone on the board and whether or not the refurbishment came in under budget, and was told someone would get back to me.
> 
> Not holding my breath
> 
> Lori



Hi Lori - Could you send me a PM with the WSJ contact you have?  I plan to start an inquiry myself. - David


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## DeniseM

I sent a message to the WKORV BOD through the message function on mystarcentral.com and asked for:

1)  The names of the BOD

2)  Their Bio's

3)  Their Contact info.

I received a message within 24 hours stating that the info. would be mailed to me.  I will share the info. when I receive it.

I want to contact them and find out if the Starwood HOA's are doing anything to contest the increase in taxes on Maui, like Marriott is.

I also want to know who exactly is on the board.

I was thinking this would be good info. for us to have in Owner Resources for all the resorts.  If owners at the various resorts want to contact their HOA's  for that info. and provide it, I'd be glad to add it to the OR Sticky for future reference.


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## Troopers

I too have contacted the WKORV BOD (not individually) requesting an update on the property tax increase.  I will share info IF they respond.

Btw, where/how did you find out that Marriott is appealing it?

Added:  A Maui developer contact that I have is inquiring about the tax issue for me as well.  I will share this as well.


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## milo

*2010 Financial Newsletter*

Here is what the fancy insert that came with my Springs invoice had to say about uncollectible accounts: "Due to recent economic conditions, there have been increased levels of owner delinquency resulting in a maintenance fee collection shortfall that has negatively impacted the Association's operating cash flow.  To help offset this impact, additional provisions for uncollectible accounts --yada yada -- As a result there is an average increase of $88.42 per ownership week -- yada yada -- Owners must all share in ensuring expenses are fully paid and uncollectible accounts provisioned."  My question for Starwood is if we as owners have to cover the shortfall from the delinquent owners, then shouldn't we get the use/benefit of the abandoned weeks?


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## WINSLOW

malyons said:


> $3400   Anyone out there w/ a Fountains unit received their bill?



Received our bill for Fountains II  2 Bedroom $1,051.52  inclosed leaflet says 9.5% increase over 2009

2010 Operating  $705.49
Replacement reserve $106.82
Est RE Taxes $ 130.21
SVN fee $109.00


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## WINSLOW

milo said:


> Here is what the fancy insert that came with my Springs invoice had to say about uncollectible accounts: "Due to recent economic conditions, there have been increased levels of owner delinquency resulting in a maintenance fee collection shortfall that has negatively impacted the Association's operating cash flow.  To help offset this impact, additional provisions for uncollectible accounts --yada yada -- As a result there is an average increase of $88.42 per ownership week -- yada yada -- Owners must all share in ensuring expenses are fully paid and uncollectible accounts provisioned."  My question for Starwood is if we as owners have to cover the shortfall from the delinquent owners, then shouldn't we get the use/benefit of the abandoned weeks?




We received the same thing for Fountains II but for $37.31 per owner for 2010 PLUS a prior year deficit saying an increase of $131.82 per owner primarily due to unanticipated delinquencies for 2009...so $169.13 for 2010....What does happen with those weeks?


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## tlpnet

Denise,

I like that you're putting all of the resorts at the top like you did, but IMHO WSJ should not be listed there yet.  Those numbers came from the PROPOSED budget which was included with the notice of the Board meeting.  Not to say that they won't be rubber stamped, but until billed, don't think you should list them.  I have those budgets on several other resorts if you decide that MF's should be posted from proposed budgets.

-tim


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## DeniseM

Thank you for pointing that out - I will change it to "proposed" and change it when we have the final numbers.  Unless WSJ owners would rather I didn't?


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## nodge

*Sheraton Desert Oasis 2BR L/O Annual 2010 MF $889.08 (without ADRA or SVN fees)*

Mystarcentral.com posted the 2010 Sheraton Desert Oasis Maintenance fees today.  They are due on January 4, 2010. 

Here they are for a SDO annual 2 Bedroom Lock-Off:

Maintenance Fee(s):              $889.08
Tax - If Applicable:                   $0.00
Membership Fee - If Applicable:  $0.00
Other:                                    $0.00
Interest:                                 $0.00
Late Fees:                               $0.00
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib               $0.00

Total:                                  $889.08

Increase from 2008:                $61.48  (Increase of 7.43%)

Very strange that I'm relieved to learn that SDO's increase is "only" 7.43% this year.

Do you think we'll get the letter offering us those worthless coupons if we pay early?

-nodge

I also find it strange that MSC is "Johnny on the Spot" with respect to posting the latest maintenance fees and offering real-time online payment, yet is still proudly touting the third Maui property despite the fact SVO actually cancelled/placed on indefinite hold that project over a year ago.


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## malyons

Fountains I info posted on mystarcentral today too (thx for pointing out Nodge):

Maintenance:  $693.95
Tax: $107.74
Membership Fee:  $109
ARDA:  No Thanks

Total:  $910.69

PY was $847 for an 8.1% increase


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## nodge

nodge said:


> Do you think we'll get the letter offering us those worthless coupons if we pay early?



YES!!!!!  The maintenance fees early payment promotion is now on the home page of MSC!  And SVO has sweetened the deal with "automatic entry in two exciting contests for a chance to win up to 1,000,000 Starpoints and other exciting travel prizes"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From MSC . . . .

_"EVERYBODY WINS"

Exceptional vacation rewards await you. When you pay your maintenance fees early and in full, you’ll receive two valuable vacation certificates:

50% off your special Owner rate at participating Starwood Vacation Ownership resorts*. 

50% off retail rates at participating Starwood hotels and resorts. 

You’ll also enjoy automatic entry in the “Pay early. Win big. Win now.” contest for a chance to win extraordinary travel prizes, including: 
One of 15 awards of Starpoints® from the Starwood Preferred Guest® program, ranging from 5,000 to 100,000 Starpoints, that can be redeemed for free flights, free hotel nights and an array of unexpected indulgences 
One of 15 seven-night vacation prizes, including resort stays in dream destinations like St. John, Hawai‘i, Cancún and Orlando, Florida. 

Three drawings will be held, with ten prizes awarded at each drawing. Pay by November 15, 2009 for entry in the first drawing. Pay between November 16 and November 30, 2009 for entry in the second drawing. Pay between December 1 and December 15, 2009 for entry in the third drawing. 
Best of all, with early payment you’ll also receive an automatic bonus entry in the “Thanks-a-Million Vacation Giveaway” for a chance to win the Grand Prize of 1,000,000 Starpoints. That’s enough for 50 nights at a category 6 hotel, like The St. Regis Aspen Resort in Colorado or Hotel Danieli, Venice in Italy. Or, you could enjoy 30 nights at a category 7 hotel, like Le Méridien Bora Bora in French Polynesia or The St. Regis Punta Mita Resort in Mexico. Or, you could vacation at another fabulous Starwood resort and fly there first class with SPG® Flights. With 1,000,000 Starpoints, the possibilities are endless. SPG categories are subject to change, visit SPG.com for current values.

Please note: Owners who pay their account via automated credit card payments must call sponsor to authorize early payment in order to participate in this contest.

* 50% off certificate does not include Harborside Resort at Atlantis, Lakeside Terrace and Villas of Cave Creek. 
For contest entry, all payments must be received by December 15, 2009.  _

Talk about making early payment of massive increases in maintenance fees fun!   Thanks SVO!

-nodge


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## jerseygirl

I'm so excited I can hardly stand it!!


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## DeniseM

*SVR - Falls 2 bdm.*

Current Year Charges

Maintenance Fee(s)		  $ 661.66

Tax - If Applicable		  $ 52.84

Membership Fee - If Applicable		  $ 0.00

Other*		  $ 0.00

Interest		  $ 0.00

Late Fees		  $ 0.00

ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.**		  $ 5.00

Sub-Total
Current Year Charges		  $ 719.50
Less Payments***		  $ 0.00

Total Due		  $ 719.50


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## DeniseM

*SDO - EOY 1 bdm. premium (Lg. 1 bdm.)*

Current Year Charges

Maintenance Fee(s)		  $ 325.62

Tax - If Applicable		  $ 0.00

Membership Fee - If Applicable		  $ 0.00

Other*		  $ 0.00

Interest		  $ 0.00

Late Fees		  $ 0.00

ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.**		  $ 5.00

Sub-Total
Current Year Charges		  $ 330.62
Less Payments***		  $ 0.00

Total Due		  $ 330.62

Projected Fees for Next Year		  $ 325.62


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## grgs

*SDO 1 bd prem (lg 1 bd)*

Maintenance Fee(s)  	 	  $ *611.25*
Tax - If Applicable 		  $ 0.00
Membership Fee - If Applicable 		  $ 0.00
Other* 		  $ 0.00
Interest 		  $ 0.00
Late Fees 		  $ 0.00
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.** 		  $ 5.00
Sub-Total
Current Year Charges 		  $ 616.25
Less Payments*** 		  $ 0.00
Total Due 		  $ 616.25
Projected Fees for Next Year 		  $ 611.25

*7.43% increase over '09*


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## RoshiGuy

nodge said:


> YES!!!!!  The maintenance fees early payment promotion is now on the home page of MSC!  And SVO has sweetened the deal with "automatic entry in two exciting contests for a chance to win up to 1,000,000 Starpoints and other exciting travel prizes"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Since this is TUG I have to ask this question - Are we better off being entered in the first round of the sweepstakes, the second or the third? There are an equal number of prizes in each round ... the more entries per round the lower the probability of winning. I'm thinking of waiting till round #2 - let the early birds jump into round #1. What do you'll think?


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## grgs

*SDO sm 1 bd*

Maintenance Fee(s)  	 	  $ *518.63*
Tax - If Applicable 		  $ 0.00
Membership Fee - If Applicable 		  $ 0.00
Other* 		  $ 0.00
Interest 		  $ 0.00
Late Fees 		  $ 0.00
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.** 		  $ 5.00
Sub-Total
Current Year Charges 		  $ 523.63
Less Payments*** 		  $ 0.00
Total Due 		  $ 523.63
Projected Fees for Next Year 		  $ 518.63 

*7.43% increase over '09*


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## malyons

DeniseM said:


> Current Year Charges
> 
> Maintenance Fee(s)		  $ 661.66
> 
> Tax - If Applicable		  $ 52.84
> 
> Membership Fee - If Applicable		  $ 0.00
> 
> Other*		  $ 0.00
> 
> Interest		  $ 0.00
> 
> Late Fees		  $ 0.00
> 
> ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.**		  $ 5.00
> 
> Sub-Total
> Current Year Charges		  $ 719.50
> Less Payments***		  $ 0.00
> 
> Total Due		  $ 719.50




This has me confused.  Real estate taxes for a 2BR unit in the same resort, same city (ie, same taxing district), just different "sections", which the taxing authority should be able to see through.  All have been renovated and in the tax man's eyes should be equal, yet...fountains II tax = $130, fountains I = $107, Springs = $82 and Falls = $52.  Huh?  makes no sense to me


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## DeniseM

RoshiGuy said:


> Since this is TUG I have to ask this question - Are we better off being entered in the first round of the sweepstakes, the second or the third? There are an equal number of prizes in each round ... the more entries per round the lower the probability of winning. I'm thinking of waiting till round #2 - let the early birds jump into round #1. What do you'll think?



I own 3 weeks, so I am going to pay one MF during each period.


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## pathways25

*Sheraton Mountain Vista - 2BR*

Due Date  	 	    01/01/2010

Current Year Charges

Maintenance Fee(s) 		                  $ 1,119.92
Tax - If Applicable 		                  $ 65.38
Membership Fee - If Applicable 		  $ 0.00
Other* 		                                  $ 0.00
Interest 		                                  $ 0.00
Late Fees 		                                  $ 0.00
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.** 		          $ 5.00

Sub-Total
Current Year Charges 		                  $ 1,190.30
Less Payments*** 		                  $ 0.00
Total Due 		                                  $ 1,190.30

Projected Fees for Next Year 		          $ 1,185.30


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## longboarder39

Hi,
Has anyone seen anything from WMH's yet?  I'm looking at a 2BR L/O resale purchase and I would love to know the increase before buying...

THANKS!!!


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## malyons

longboarder39 said:


> Hi,
> Has anyone seen anything from WMH's yet?  I'm looking at a 2BR L/O resale purchase and I would love to know the increase before buying...
> 
> THANKS!!!



check mystarcentral, i found mine there before i got it in the mail


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## Pedro

*Pay early. Win big.  Win now.*

Just received my MF statement for Lakeside Terrace, along with a letter indicating that the association is experiencing higher than usual delinquencies, thus affecting cash flow. As an incentive to pay the fees early, the following is being offered:
1) a certificate for 50% off discount off the owner rate at SVO resorts (doesn't look like a bad deal)
2) a certificate for 50% off retail rates (I'm not sure what "retail" rates means). Is that the rack rate? Or is it similar to the 50% off certificate that you get with the Starwood AX card?
3) A chance to win 100,000 SP and other prices (it doesn't say what the odds of winning are)
4) A chance to win 1,000,000 SP (again, no mention of odds).

I haven't received the MF statements for the other resorts where we own, so I don't know if this incentive is limited only to Lakeside Terrace or if it applies accross SVN.


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## tlpnet

longboarder39 said:


> Hi,
> Has anyone seen anything from WMH's yet? I'm looking at a 2BR L/O resale purchase and I would love to know the increase before buying...
> 
> THANKS!!!


 
I own two weeks there.  They haven't yet been mailed or posted on MSC.  I'll post when I find out.

-tim


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## ondeadlin

Uf. 

Doesn't sound like a good sign for long-term stability or MFs.


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## DeniseM

Pedro said:


> Just received my MF statement for Lakeside Terrace, along with a letter indicating that the association is experiencing higher than usual delinquencies, thus affecting cash flow.



Can you please post the breakdown of your fees?  We are tracking it - thanks!

Also - some of the MF's are on www.mystarcentral.com, now.


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## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> Can you please post the breakdown of your fees?  We are tracking it - thanks!
> 
> Also - some of the MF's are on www.mystarcentral.com, now.



I look yesterday and WPORV, WKORV-S, WKV and WSJ MFs are not listed (still shows 2009).

I haven't been to MSC in a while - still sucks.


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## nodge

*WKV 2 BR L/O 2010 Maint Fee:  $1237.30*

Westin Kierland Villas 2 Bedroom Lock-off Annual:

2010 Operating Assessment:  $988.25
2010 Replacement Reserve:  $190.75
2010 Estimated Real Estate Tax:  $58.30
2010 SVN Membership Fee:  $0.00
2010 ARDA-ROC PAC Contribution:  $0.00

Total 2010 Assessment (not including SVN and ARDA fees):  $1237.30

Increase from last year:  $93.54  (increase of 8.18% from last year)

Got this in the mail today.  This info is not available on MSC yet.  Payment is due January 4, 2010.  Early payment promotion applies.

-nodge


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## Ant22man

I just recieved my bill today (the early payment coupon expired already...such a deal! ...so Starwood)

Vistana Resort - Fountains

Operating Assessment - $6o4.73
Replacement Reserve - $89.22
Estimated Real Estate Tax - $109.00
SVN Fee - $109.00
ARDA Contribution - $0.0

TOTAL - $910.69

2009 - $830.56  / 80.13 Increase
I'm not happy   This is is tasteless   Especially at a place where customer service ranks low on the list of priorities


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## tlpnet

There are a couple people that reported that their early payment coupon already expired.  I don't have access to mine at the moment, but remember reading some date in October that had passed when I was reviewing it, but then re-read it, and it said *beginning October XX *(date in the past).  Could you please check yours, and see if that is what it says, or if it says expires October (date in the past).

-tim


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## nodge

*WKV EOY-EVEN Large One Bedroom 2010 Maint Fee: $398.88*

Westin Kierland Villas Large One Bedroom EOY-Even:

2010 Operating Assessment:  $323.32
2010 Replacement Reserve:  $58.55
2010 Estimated Real Estate Tax:  $17.01
2010 SVN Membership Fee:  $0.00
2010 ARDA-ROC PAC Contribution:  $0.00

Total 2010 Assessment (not including SVN and ARDA fees):  $398.88

Increase from last year:  $29.64  (increase of 8.03% from last year)

Payment is due January 4, 2010.  Early payment promotion applies.

FYI:  With SVO, Every-Other-Year ("EOY") usage means you pay this maint fee EVERY year, but can only use an EOY villa during the usage year (odd or even years).

-nodge


----------



## CeeWoo

I should have bailed when I got that special assessment bill a couple years ago


----------



## Iwant2gonow

nodge said:


> Well at least that $923.27/week fee is still a way better deal than what a non-owner could rent a week at VR for.  Oh wait.  Nevermind.
> 
> Please make sure to let SVO know what you think of this news here.
> 
> -nodge



When I clicked your "nevermind" link I could not believe it!  Have not had time to log in to RCI in over a year. Can anyone explain how all of the extra vacations can be advertised so far in advance...end of 2010? Does Vistana give these weeks to RCI before our reservation window?


----------



## Twinkstarr

*Lakeside Terrace  regular season ski or summer season dedicated 2br*

2010 operating assessment $722.60
2010 replacement reserve   $172.01

Total                               $894.61 (not including the $5 ARDA contribution)

Actually if you own a shoulder season at LT you only pay $526.73 for 2010

. For uncollectable accounts they increased that line item $38.42(total for the year $60.19). 


2009 fees were op assesment $690.17
                      replacement   $144.02 

total                                   $834.19   

increase 6.9%


----------



## RoshiGuy

*Details on SDO Increase*

I just got my SDO invoice in the mail today and it contained useful information relevant to this thread and other threads where increases in MF are being discussed.

According to the newsletter, overall increase is 7.4% or $70.15/week. However there have been *decreases *versus 2009 as follows:
* Special Projects       $33.6/week
* SVO Allocation         $18.0/week
* Office Wages/Other  $11.1/week
* Utilities                   $6.1/week
* Parking Lot lease      $4.5/week

The *increase *versus 2009 is being driven by:
* Legal budget            $12.8/week
* Delinquencies           $130.9/week
* Reduced int income   $12.0/week

I added in to the delinquencies number above something that was shown as "prior year surplus reduction" because it was said that this was also linked to owner delinquency. Yes, the numbers above all don't add up to $70.15/week but that is what was in the newsletter.

So it appears, for SDO at least, that MF increases are completely being driven by owners not paying dues.


----------



## DeniseM

Twinkstarr said:


> 2010 operating assessment $722.60
> 2010 replacement reserve   $172.01
> 
> Total                               $894.61 (not including the $5 ARDA contribution)



So this is a Plat season week and what size is the unit? - Thanks!


----------



## Sthack

*SVR-Fountains II - 2bd*

2010 Operating Assessment = $705.49
2010 Replacement Reserve = $106.82
2010 Estimated Real Estate Tax = $130.21
2010 SVN Membership fee = $109.00

Grand Total = $1,051.52

I can't recall what 2009 MF were, but I know it did not include a comma.......it was less than $1,000.


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## DavidnRobin

The 2009 MFs are listed in MSC.


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## DeniseM

DavidnRobin said:


> The 2009 MFs are listed in MSC.



And most are listed in Starwood Owner Resources, at the top of the page.


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## Twinkstarr

DeniseM said:


> So this is a Plat season week and what size is the unit? - Thanks!



Sorry, Plat. season and it's a dedicated 2br. Will edit my post.


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## Cdntraveller

There is some really perverse logic here.....kierland maintenance fees grew at 7-8% in the good times (in theory to cover the escalating costs in an overheated market), and are now growing 7-8% in the down times as well (to cover all of the legal costs, delinquencies, and rental vacancies).  Other resorts are much higher.   The mailout says they will review the loss provisions in the future and may reduce them accordingly.....doubtful this will happen.  But if it does, the cost reduction would benefit new owners who have not had to fund the losses in prior years.  

You are absolutely right....if there are unused weeks due to unpaid maintenance fees, these should be going entirely to the benefit of the owners who are shouldering the losses.  The weeks should be rented out with the proceeds being credited 100% towards the MF's.   If owners aren't paying their MF's within a very short grace period, the weeks should automatically be put up for rent asap.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Cdntraveller said:


> There is some really perverse logic here.....kierland maintenance fees grew at 7-8% in the good times (in theory to cover the escalating costs in an overheated market), and are now growing 7-8% in the down times as well (to cover all of the legal costs, delinquencies, and rental vacancies).  Other resorts are much higher.   The mailout says they will review the loss provisions in the future and may reduce them accordingly.....doubtful this will happen.  But if it does, the cost reduction would benefit new owners who have not had to fund the losses in prior years.
> 
> You are absolutely right....if there are unused weeks due to unpaid maintenance fees, these should be going entirely to the benefit of the owners who are shouldering the losses.  The weeks should be rented out with the proceeds being credited 100% towards the MF's.   If owners aren't paying their MF's within a very short grace period, the weeks should automatically be put up for rent asap.




There are no new owners at WKV - the resort is pretty much sold out except for a few random VOIs here and there (silver season) and they are way expensive.
They will only refund the SVO management association according to the CCRs - which is pretty muddy - but it wil not happen as you propose - the best an owner can hope for is some sort of repayment of MFs (minus admin cost).


----------



## Cdntraveller

By new owners, I meant resale....as fees go up, more and more people will bail.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Cdntraveller said:


> By new owners, I meant resale....as fees go up, more and more people will bail.




Got it.  If someone sells their WKV to a (resale) buyer, then the benefit and loss is between the buyer/seller as it is with all aspects of any transaction - someone will have to pay that MF at somepoint with a resale transaction - the real question is what happens to the deliquent units put into SVN, II, or rented by SVO - or upon default - how are those past due MFs compensated to the management association (which in theory represents the owners)?


----------



## DanCali

Cdntraveller said:


> By new owners, I meant resale....as fees go up, more and more people will bail.



Yes, if you sell your TS today and if there is a future reduction in MFs the new owners benefit from it - so what? You think they should pay that back?

A new owner could also get slapped with a special assessment a few months after they buy and that would be on all the wear and tear that was caused during the time you owned - would you pay them back for that?

You can take that further and say that the new owner should pay all the resreves you paid over the years too... The more things you bring up in a negotiation the more likely a buyer is to walk away - it's best to just worry about the price and closing costs.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Cdntraveller said:


> By new owners, I meant resale....as fees go up, more and more people will bail.



If people bail on their Plat WKV - then they do not realize that these VOIs have value both as rentals and SVN exchangers way above their MFs - even the SO-SP conversion isn't all that bad.  For Silver season ownership - I could see why they would bail (why they bought in the 1st place is questionable), and to a lesser extent Gold season owners.  Silver and Gold owners bailing out will however affect all Owners based on how the system is set-up.


----------



## RLG

*Sheraton Mountain Vista*

Fees for annual units at Sheraton Mountain Vista excluding SVN or ARDA fees:


Small 1br     651.11
Large 1br     810.01
2br lockoff  1160.92


(EOY's are 50% of these plus $20)

These represent approximately a 5% increase.  Much better than last year's 27%.


----------



## DeniseM

RLG said:


> Fees for annual units at Sheraton Mountain Vista excluding SVN or ARDA fees:
> 
> 
> Small 1br     651.11
> Large 1br     810.01
> 2br lockoff  1160.92
> 
> 
> (EOY's are 50% of these plus $20)
> 
> These represent approximately a 5% increase.  Much better than last year's 27%.



Can you please look at this post, and tell me the difference between what you posted for a 2 bdm. and what the other poster listed  - is the other one a dedicated 2 bdm.?


----------



## RLG

DeniseM said:


> Can you please look at this post, and tell me the difference between what you posted for a 2 bdm. and what the other poster listed



The actual bill is the same, but there are two things different in the presentation.

1) He included the ARDA fee which I excluded.  (I really wish we could make it clear that everyone should leave this and the SVN fee out.  It makes it difficult to do comparisons year-to-year or across properties when these are included some of the time.)

2) All of my bills include something called "prior year tax credit".  For the 2br this is 24.38.  It looks like they charge owners an estimated property tax for 2010 and any difference between the estimated and actual is charged/credited in the following year.  Since it probably will appear every year, I treated this as a 2010 item rather than a retroactive reduction in 2009 maintenance.


----------



## WalnutBaron

*WPORV 2010 MF's--2 BR*


2010--$2,464.52 (sorry, no detail yet as this is from MSC)
2009--$2,250.99

% Increase  9.5

In the deflationary economy we've been through in the past twelve months, this is rather alarming.  Just wait until inflation kicks in...I shudder to think of what our wonderful BOD will do.


----------



## DeniseM

WalnutBaron said:


> 2010--$2,464.52 (sorry, no detail yet as this is from MSC)
> 2009--$2,250.99
> 
> % Increase  9.5
> 
> In the deflationary economy we've been through in the past twelve months, this is rather alarming.  Just wait until inflation kicks in...I shudder to think of what our wonderful BOD will do.



Can you please cut and paste the breakdown from MSC?


----------



## WalnutBaron

DeniseM said:


> Can you please cut and paste the breakdown from MSC?



Denise, the breakdown is not yet available.  Right now, it's showing up on MSC as "Projected Fees For Next Year".  I will post details when they become available.


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## pathways25

WalnutBaron said:


> Denise, the breakdown is not yet available.  Right now, it's showing up on MSC as "Projected Fees For Next Year".  I will post details when they become available.



I don't think WPORV has posted yet.  The "Projected Fees For Next Year" are just a repeat of this year which is $2250.99 MF + $113.53 SVN/tax + $100.00 "other" = $2464.52.


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## DeniseM

jeromechen said:


> I don't think WPORV has posted yet.  The "Projected Fees For Next Year" are just a repeat of this year which is $2250.99 MF + $113.53 SVN/tax + $100.00 "other" = $2464.52.



Yes - that's what is showing for the Maui resorts too, and from past experience, we know that it could change completely.


----------



## harzim

*Maintenance Fee Question*

As I'm sure you all did, I just got my maintenance fee bill for 2010.  As you know, it isn't due until January.  However, they are offering incentives to pay early.  My quick look said there is no real benefit anything being offered and I shouldn't pay early.  What do you guys think?  Thanks.


----------



## DeniseM

There are three contests (during 3 different timeframes) that you can enter, plus two 50% off coupons.  

The hotel coupon is worthless, the TS coupon may have some value - this is the first time I've seen a TS coupon offered.  

I own 3 Starwood TS's and I have to pay the MF's anyway, so I am going to pay them during the 3 timeframes for the 3 contests - might as well.


----------



## nodge

*Data point:  The 50% off SVO villa coupons ARE worthless.*



DeniseM said:


> We know the hotel coupon is worthless, but I wonder what the "real" value of the other coupon is?



I need an extra night at WKV in Scottsdale in March, so I called SVO and asked them what the 50% off SVO owner rate would be for that night.  The SVO agent didn’t know, but said there is a special SPG hot line for owners (1-877-782-0067) wanting to take advantage of this deal.  

So I called SPG and here is the nightly rate of a large one bedroom villa at Westin Kierland for the night of March 27th under the various available rate plans:

Current American Express Promotion Rate (Rate Code: WRLR01):  $ 117/night (3 night minimum and maximum, must book by Nov. 15th)  
AAA Rate (appears under “'promotions' on SPG.com not ‘AAA’):  $199/night
SVN Owners’ Discount Rate:  $298/night  (per SPG rep)
“Best Available Rate”:  $539/night (per web site)
Rack Rate:  $799/night (per SPG rep)

and the 50% off SVO owners’ rate coupon rate is  . . . . . .  drum roll please . . . . . 



$399/night!!!!  (50% off the rack rate)

I  read the SPG guy the verbiage from MSC which said the coupon was good for “50% off your special Owner rate.”  So I said “it sounds to me that if the owner rate is $298, wouldn’t the coupon price be $149/night at WKV?”  He said flat out, and I quote:  “NO. It’s like the SPG50 coupons for hotels, which is 50% off the rack rate.  The coupon isn’t a good deal for you here.”

FYI,
-nodge

BTW, according to the guy I spoke with at SVO before calling SPG, SPG will be mailing out both (hotel and timeshare) “discount coupons” sometime towards the end of the year, and you’ll need the code on the back of them to book this great “deal.”


----------



## DeniseM

Why am I NOT surprised!    

Isn't that flat our false advertising?  More quality service from Starwood management!

But I'm SURE I'm going to win at least one of those contests!


----------



## nodge

DeniseM said:


> Why am I NOT surprised!
> 
> Isn't that flat our false advertising?  More quality service from Starwood management!
> 
> But I'm SURE I'm going to win at least one of those contests!



I printed out (and stored for safe keeping) the page of MSC that says:

_"Exceptional vacation reqards await you.  When you pay your maintenance fees early and in full, you'll receive two valuable vacation certificates:

50% off your special Owner rate at participating Starwood Vacation Ownership resorts*

50% off retail rates at participating Starwood hotels and resorts.

[...]

* 50% off certificate does not include Harborside Resrot at Atlantis, Lakeside Terrace and Villas of Cave Creek."_

Let 's hope the SPG guy was just misinformed.  Otherwise, if any out of work attorneys out there are looking for something to do, we may have something to keep you busy.

-nodge

hint hint:  I'm pretty sure attorney's fees are recoverable under most consumer protection statutes.  That could be your first project -- verify that.


----------



## MON2REY

nodge said:


> Current American Express Promotion Rate (Rate Code: WRLR01):  $ 117/night (3 night minimum and maximum, must book by Nov. 15th)



Nodge, where did you find this AMEX rate?  Does the rate code work for other locations (e.g. WKORV)?


----------



## nodge

MON2REY said:


> Nodge, where did you find this AMEX rate?  Does the rate code work for other locations (e.g. WKORV)?



It appears to have been a targeted email promotion.  (I fished it out of my spam filter, and is limited to WKV.  I bet SPG would give this rate to anyone who calls with the above-noted rate code (WRLR01).

-nodge


----------



## Ken555

SVR Falls 2010 MFs

2010 Operating Assessment: $580.11
2010 Replacement Reserve: $81.55
2010 Estimated Real Estate Taxes: $54.82
2010 ARDA: $5

= $721.48

Letter states this is a 3.1% ($20.16) increase vs 2009 MFs. This includes the following reductions per average ownership week:

- $26.88 by reducing housekeeping
- $9.75 in utility savings via reduced consumption and "Go Green" savings
- $4.78 by paying minimum wage to front desk staff (err...) 
- $3.38 with less credit card fees (as compared to 2009, which was higher due to a refurbishment cost)
- $2.43 by cutting activities and associated staff expenses
- $1.24 by using 10-year old linens for another year
- $1.10 by hiring the low-bidder for security (lock your doors, people!)

And, the MFs are increasing for:

- $4.20 for legal (/sigh)
- $7.25 to pay 2009 deficit, primarily resulting from unpaid MFs
- $65.63 to pay *ANTICIPATED *2010 uncollectible MFs


----------



## jerseygirl

Ken555 said:


> SVR Falls 2010 MFs
> 
> 2010 Operating Assessment: $580.11
> 2010 Replacement Reserve: $81.55
> 2010 Estimated Real Estate Taxes: $54.82
> 2010 ARDA: $5
> 
> = $721.48
> 
> Letter states this is a 3.1% ($20.16) increase vs 2009 MFs. This includes the following reductions per average ownership week:
> 
> - $26.88 by reducing housekeeping
> - $9.75 in utility savings via reduced consumption and "Go Green" savings
> - $4.78 by paying minimum wage to front desk staff (err...)
> - $3.38 with less credit card fees (as compared to 2009, which was higher due to a refurbishment cost)
> - $2.43 by cutting activities and associated staff expenses
> - $1.24 by using 10-year old linens for another year
> - $1.10 by hiring the low-bidder for security (lock your doors, people!)
> 
> And, the MFs are increasing for:
> 
> *- $4.20 for legal (/sigh)*
> - $7.25 to pay 2009 deficit, primarily resulting from unpaid MFs
> - $65.63 to pay *ANTICIPATED *2010 uncollectible MFs



Ah ... they might want to increase that legal reserve!  

And, I say that as an owner.  I'd rather pay more legal fees now ... and gain control back of OUR resort.


----------



## YYJMSP

*WKORV fees posted on MSC*

2BR LO unit at WKORV:

Current Year Charges 
Maintenance Fee(s)    $ 3,076.69  
Tax - If Applicable    $ 0.00  
Membership Fee - If Applicable    $ 113.53  
Other*    $ 0.00  
Interest    $ 0.00  
Late Fees    $ 0.00  
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.**    $ 0.00  
Sub-Total
Current Year Charges    $ 3,190.22  
Less Payments***    $ 0.00  

Total Due    $ 3,190.22


In comparison, 2009 base MF is showing as $2,459.73 -- so an increase of 25%


----------



## DeniseM

ManbirPrihar said:


> 2BR LO unit at WKORV:
> 
> Current Year Charges
> Maintenance Fee(s)    $ 3,076.69
> Tax - If Applicable    $ 0.00
> Membership Fee - If Applicable    $ 113.53
> Other*    $ 0.00
> Interest    $ 0.00
> Late Fees    $ 0.00
> ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.**    $ 0.00
> Sub-Total
> Current Year Charges    $ 3,190.22
> Less Payments***    $ 0.00
> 
> Total Due    $ 3,190.22
> 
> 
> In comparison, 2009 base MF is showing as $2,459.73 -- so an increase of 25%



This is just the estimate - In the past the estimates have been unreliable.


----------



## YYJMSP

*Estimate?*

I don't think it's an estimate any more.

Our WKORV is now showing a Total Due of $3190.22, where it was showing $0 yesterday and a projected MF value the same as the previous year.

Our WKORVN is still showing Total Due of $0 and a projected MF same as last year's amount.


----------



## DeniseM

I just looked, and it's the same figures that have been there for awhile, and there is no "due date."  Once there is a due date, then it's the real deal.  Maybe they just updated your Acct., because I have seen the same figures for a month or more.


----------



## DeniseM

Hmmm...weird....I went back and checked again and now I'm showing  something else.  Maybe they are updating it right now?


Maintenance Fee Details 

Due Date     N/A  

  Prior Balance Due
View Prior Year Balance Detail    $ 0.00  

  Current Year Charges 

Maintenance Fee(s)    $ 2,232.83  

Tax - If Applicable    $ 0.00  

Membership Fee - If Applicable    $ 113.53  

Other*    $ 0.00  

Interest    $ 0.00  

Late Fees    $ 0.00  

ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.**    $ 0.00  

Sub-Total
Current Year Charges    $ 2,346.36  
Less Payments***    $ 0.00  

Total Due    $ 2,346.36  

Projected Fees for Next Year    $ 2,346.36


----------



## LisaRex

I just don't know how they're going to keep the place up with only $10,000 a month per apartment to work with.


----------



## DavidnRobin

MSC is showing the MFs for the 2Bd LO Dlx as $3,076.69 this is an increase of 25.1% from the 2009 MF of $2,459.73.

Since 2005 - a 90% increase:
2005	$1,623.77
2006	$1,813.16 (11.7%)
2007	$1,954.27 (7.8%)
2008	$2,203.79 (12.8%)
2009	$2,459.73 (11.6%)
2010	$3,076.69 (25.1%)

anyone ready to start the battle yet?


----------



## LisaRex

DavidnRobin said:


> anyone ready to start the battle yet?



Count me in.


----------



## DeniseM

Definitely - I asked the HOA to send me a list of the BOD's, Bio's, and contact info.  They said I would have it in 7-10 days - it's been *16* days, so I hope to get it soon!


----------



## DavidnRobin

2 main issues... {and this deserved it's own thread for all SVO Resorts suffering from escalating MFs}

1) The diversion of MF funds for deliquent/default Owners:  As discussed previously - once deliquent MFs are paid back - this goes back to the HOA (per CCRs - fine).  At question is the payback of MFs for the deliquent VOIs that are used by SVO/WKORV via SVN exchange, II exchange, usage by StarPoints/SPG, and those rented by SVO/WKORV.  I have not been able to find any source that discusses how the value attained by SVO/WKORV is paid back to the HOA.

THIS IS A MAJOR ISSUE THAT WE NEED TO INSIST ON REAL ANSWERS.

2) Plans for fighting the tax increase:  a major portion of the tax increase is due to the 'paper' value that SVO/WKORV puts on these VOIs.  However, as we all know, the real value of these VOIs is substaintially less that the value that SVO/WKORV on them.


As has been discussed - other HI TSs are not seeing the same MF increases - especially if you look at the % increase since 2005 (~90%) - this also needs to be questioned and seriously answered.


----------



## thinze3

*GULP!*

Imagine that poor sales person sitting there telling a prospective buyer, "For a mere $110,000 you can buy this deluxe corner unit, AND the annual fees are only about $3000."  



DavidnRobin said:


> MSC is showing the MFs for the 2Bd LO Dlx as $3,076.69 this is an increase of 25.1% from the 2009 MF of $2,459.73.
> 
> Since 2005 - a 90% increase:
> 2005	$1,623.77
> 2006	$1,813.16 (11.7%)
> 2007	$1,954.27 (7.8%)
> 2008	$2,203.79 (12.8%)
> 2009	$2,459.73 (11.6%)
> 2010	$3,076.69 (25.1%)
> 
> anyone ready to start the battle yet?


----------



## YYJMSP

*Not quite 25%*

I forgot this the first time I posted the numbers, but you have to remember that the new MF numbers probably include the 2009 tax shortfall (one-time I hope of ~$125) and then the 2010 tax increase vs previous budget (~$265 I think it was).

If you take those out of the equation, the increase is 9% this year.  If you assume the 2010 increase will stick around, then the increase is 20% this year, but that's a slightly skewed percentage.


----------



## jerseygirl

LisaRex said:


> I just don't know how they're going to keep the place up with only $10,000 a month per apartment to work with.



:hysterical: Very nicely put!


----------



## DavidnRobin

sorry - not buying it - it is 25.1%.  If any change is observed in future MFs it will be accounted for then, but 'don't count the chickens before they are hatched' - meaning - it is 25.1% this year - if it drops in the future MFs great - but if past MFs (why I showed them back to 2005) is any indication of future MFs - I would not count on it until 2011 and 2012 MF bills are sent out.

this argument of it's only 9% sounds like the same fuzzy math that is used by TS salespeople to sell TSs (e.g. "the SP conversion alone pays for the VOI...")


----------



## LisaRex

YYJMSP said:


> I forgot this the first time I posted the numbers, but you have to remember that the new MF numbers probably include the 2009 tax shortfall (one-time I hope of ~$125) and then the 2010 tax increase vs previous budget (~$265 I think it was).
> 
> If you take those out of the equation, the increase is 9% this year.  If you assume the 2010 increase will stick around, then the increase is 20% this year, but that's a slightly skewed percentage.



It's a sad day when a 9% increase is accepted as just another ho-hum.  The economy is in the toilet, people are losing their jobs, MF delinquencies are up...and Starwood is just expecting people to absorb this kind of hit.  Again.  

They're asking $350 a day to run what is supposed to be a NON-PROFIT association.  They are now collecting $122,000 PER APARTMENT per month to clean the units twice a week and take out the trash. Even if you take out taxes of $800 per unit, that comes to over $83,000 per apartment per month.

That is horrendous mismanagement AT BEST.


----------



## YYJMSP

DavidnRobin said:


> (e.g. "the SP conversion alone pays for the VOI...")



I guess it depends on how you use your ownerships...

In five years, we've never actually stayed at any of the SVN properties.  Each year, we've exchanged for SPG points.  This coming year will actually be the first time we'll be using our units for an extended family get-together.

With careful planning and use of those SPG points, I feel we've managed to get approx. three times the dollar value in hotel rooms vs. what we paid in MFs each year on average, based on rates I would pay Starwood directly for those rooms.  I realize this may not be completely reflective of better deals I could get on those same hotel rooms through some other booking route, but then again, the same may apply to the other side of the equation -- we might be able to get access to our ownership units in some cheaper way.

We typically plan about 3 years in to the future.  Even with MFs going up 10% each year, I think we'll continue to do well with value for ownership.  This was part of the assumptions I used when we purchased our first unit.

Of course, this is all contingent on the continuing relationship between the timeshare and hotel sides of Starwood.  If the ability to exchange in the way we do goes away, so does the value of our owned units to us.

Final note -- your individual results may vary quite dramatically.  Just because it works for us doesn't mean it will work for anyone else.  It's extremely dependant on what you want out as the end result, and how you can take best advantage of what you own.


----------



## DanCali

YYJMSP said:


> I forgot this the first time I posted the numbers, but you have to remember that the new MF numbers probably include the 2009 tax shortfall (one-time I hope of ~$125) and then the 2010 tax increase vs previous budget (~$265 I think it was).
> 
> If you take those out of the equation, the increase is 9% this year.  If you assume the 2010 increase will stick around, then the increase is 20% this year, but that's a slightly skewed percentage.






			
				DavidnRobin said:
			
		

> Since 2005 - a 90% increase:
> 2005 $1,623.77
> 2006 $1,813.16 (11.7%)
> 2007 $1,954.27 (7.8%)
> 2008 $2,203.79 (12.8%)
> 2009 $2,459.73 (11.6%)
> 2010 $3,076.69 (25.1%)



YYJMSP - if I buy the "only" 20% increase this year and move $125 to 2009, that means that the increase in 2009 (relative to 2008) was higher and the increase in 2010 (relative to adjusted 2009) was even lower than you claim:

2005 $1,623.77
2006 $1,813.16 (11.7%)
2007 $1,954.27 (7.8%)
2008 $2,203.79 (12.8%)
2009 $2,459.73 + $125 =  2584.73 (17.3%)
2010 $3,076.69 -$125 = 2951.69 (14.2% relative to 2009 adjusted number)


That still doesn't change the fact that over 5 years MFs almost doubled so this fuzzy math doesn't change much. Exclude the taxes to get your 9% increase and it's still unjustified at this, or any other resort - especially in this economy when prices and energy costs went down relative to last year. Even Marriott was not greedy this year...


----------



## DavidnRobin

YYJMSP said:


> I guess it depends on how you use your ownerships...
> 
> In five years, we've never actually stayed at any of the SVN properties.  Each year, we've exchanged for SPG points.  This coming year will actually be the first time we'll be using our units for an extended family get-together.
> 
> With careful planning and use of those SPG points, I feel we've managed to get approx. three times the dollar value in hotel rooms vs. what we paid in MFs each year on average, based on rates I would pay Starwood directly for those rooms.  I realize this may not be completely reflective of better deals I could get on those same hotel rooms through some other booking route, but then again, the same may apply to the other side of the equation -- we might be able to get access to our ownership units in some cheaper way.
> 
> We typically plan about 3 years in to the future.  Even with MFs going up 10% each year, I think we'll continue to do well with value for ownership.  This was part of the assumptions I used when we purchased our first unit.
> 
> Of course, this is all contingent on the continuing relationship between the timeshare and hotel sides of Starwood.  If the ability to exchange in the way we do goes away, so does the value of our owned units to us.
> 
> Final note -- your individual results may vary quite dramatically.  Just because it works for us doesn't mean it will work for anyone else.  It's extremely dependant on what you want out as the end result, and how you can take best advantage of what you own.



I am very familiar with the SO-SP conversion math - and the value of SPs within SPG (I just used 225K SPs myself) - I can come up with many more scenerios of better uses for SO that do not involve SO-SP conversion.  Granted - it is nice to have the flexability, but most SO-SP conversions for SVO resorts are very poor.

Since you are not forthcoming with specific details - it makes me wonder...
I can give many examples of poor SO-SP conversions (WKORV, WPORV, WSJ {especially} are all very poor - only WKV comes even close) and while I appreciate you making the best of your usage and planning - many of us do - so this is not unique... so tell me - which resorts are you converting, how much are the MFs - and what would be the corresponding usage via SVN and renting?  I do both - I would never - unless stuck - convert my WPORV or WKORV - and while I cannot convert WSJ - I would not convert that either.  WSJ gives 22K SPs for 81K SOs and has a base MF of $2000.

Re: trying to establish the MFs increase of 25% as 9% - I own 6 VOIs (5 EY and 1 EOY) - WSJ just saw an increase of 25% in their base MFs and yet taxes are not paid via the MFs.  In fact the only one so far that seems reasonable is WKV (but haven't seen WPORV yet).  25% is what it is - if you depend on SVO/WKORV making good on future MFs - you are deluding yourself.

SVO is clearly playing both ends of the game - they take the unused VOIs from deliquent/defaulted owners - and use them for their own value without a transparent or reasonable way to pay back the HOAs.

Considering that this expected 10% is compounded year-to-year - and that is acceptable - makes me wonder...


----------



## LisaRex

DavidnRobin said:


> SVO is clearly playing both ends of the game - they take the unused VOIs from deliquent/defaulted owners - and use them for their own value without a transparent or reasonable way to pay back the HOAs.



They also want to play both ends of the game by commanding a huge profit on the front end AND the back end.  I'm furious and I bought resale! I can't imagine how the folks who paid thousands of dollars to the developer will feel when they open up their MF letters.  

What they're doing isn't nice, isn't fair, and isn't ethical.  I can't believe there is anyone left, even the most ardent Starwood supporter, who can't see clearly that Starwood is taking wild advantage of the fact that they have a captive audience completely at their mercy.  And we can't even sell our timeshares in this economy without losing thousands and thousands of dollars.  

Instead of handing over ownership to the owners, which is what they're supposed to do, they sold their cake for top dollar and now want to feast on it.


----------



## YYJMSP

*$12K MFs = 480K SPG = $45K value*



DavidnRobin said:


> so tell me - which resorts are you converting, how much are the MFs - and what would be the corresponding usage via SVN and renting?



Our WKORV and WKORVN units both give 148,100 SO = 80,000 SPG.

The 4 years 2006-2009, I converted WKORV (annual) and WKORVN (even years) for a total of 480,000 SPG points.  Someone can add up the MFs, but let's say for the sake of discussion that they're somewhere around $12,000 for that period.

I used those SPG points to get over 100 days of holidays staying in Starwood-branded hotels for a month in Europe, multiple 2 week trips along both coasts of the USA, a couple of winter weeks in Whistler and Aspen, 2 weeks in the Bahamas, etc, and dozens of short weekend getaways.

If I'd paid for those same rooms using Starwood's web site at the same time I booked the room with the SPG points, I would have paid approx. $45,000 -- the 29 days in Europe in mostly suites gave me over $23,000 of value alone.  I'm a little OCD that way -- I like to keep track of how much I "saved".

I am not suggesting that this is by any means a typical expected return on the MFs, but for me, this specific type of use was part of my calculations when I decided to buy in to SVN instead of one of the other timeshare systems that we'd been introduced to over the few years previous...


----------



## Ken555

This really isn't the right thread for this discussion.

Search a bit and you'll find lots of comments on the merits for and against conversion.





YYJMSP said:


> Our WKORV and WKORVN units both give 148,100 SO = 80,000 SPG.
> 
> The 4 years 2006-2009, I converted WKORV (annual) and WKORVN (even years) for a total of 480,000 SPG points.  Someone can add up the MFs, but let's say for the sake of discussion that they're somewhere around $12,000 for that period.
> 
> I used those SPG points to get over 100 days of holidays staying in Starwood-branded hotels for a month in Europe, multiple 2 week trips along both coasts of the USA, a couple of winter weeks in Whistler and Aspen, 2 weeks in the Bahamas, etc, and dozens of short weekend getaways.
> 
> If I'd paid for those same rooms using Starwood's web site at the same time I booked the room with the SPG points, I would have paid approx. $45,000 -- the 29 days in Europe in mostly suites gave me over $23,000 of value alone.  I'm a little OCD that way -- I like to keep track of how much I "saved".
> 
> I am not suggesting that this is by any means a typical expected return on the MFs, but for me, this specific type of use was part of my calculations when I decided to buy in to SVN instead of one of the other timeshare systems that we'd been introduced to over the few years previous...


----------



## DanCali

LisaRex said:


> Instead of handing over ownership to the owners, which is what they're supposed to do, they sold their cake for top dollar and now want to feast on it.



I've talked in the past about my conspiracy theory... My guess is that after they feast of the cake, they will also want "help" owners with the MF burden and buy it back for free.


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## LisaRex

YYJMSP said:


> If I'd paid for those same rooms using Starwood's web site at the same time I booked the room with the SPG points, I would have paid approx. $45,000 -- the 29 days in Europe in mostly suites gave me over $23,000 of value alone.  I'm a little OCD that way -- I like to keep track of how much I "saved".



You can't just use the MFs as a point of comparison without including your initial purchase price.


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## DanCali

YYJMSP said:


> Our WKORV and WKORVN units both give 148,100 SO = 80,000 SPG.
> 
> The 4 years 2006-2009, I converted WKORV (annual) and WKORVN (even years) for a total of 480,000 SPG points.  Someone can add up the MFs, but let's say for the sake of discussion that they're somewhere around $12,000 for that period.
> 
> I used those SPG points to get over 100 days of holidays staying in Starwood-branded hotels for a month in Europe, multiple 2 week trips along both coasts of the USA, a couple of winter weeks in Whistler and Aspen, 2 weeks in the Bahamas, etc, and dozens of short weekend getaways.
> 
> If I'd paid for those same rooms using Starwood's web site at the same time I booked the room with the SPG points, I would have paid approx. $45,000 -- the 29 days in Europe in mostly suites gave me over $23,000 of value alone.  I'm a little OCD that way -- I like to keep track of how much I "saved".
> 
> I am not suggesting that this is by any means a typical expected return on the MFs, but for me, this specific type of use was part of my calculations when I decided to buy in to SVN instead of one of the other timeshare systems that we'd been introduced to over the few years previous...



I agree that this is not the right thread, but it would be wrong to leave this unanswered and have someone get the impression that 480,000 SP are worth $45,000... I can't help myself but to respond!

I have many problems with the calculations above. For example 29 nights in hotels are worth $23,000? And you make it sound like you booked an $800/night suite for 10,000 SPs/day? No way... I doubt you used SPs to book suites outright and if you got the suite upgrade for being SPG Gold, how much was the standard room - $250? (Anyone can get SPG Gold for $450 a year through Amex). Then value it at whatever you booked, not whatever you stayed in... 

Regardless of all this, the one big thing missing from that calculation is the loss of equity value which will never make a developer purchase worth the SPs. You only get SP conversion if you buy from the developer. Those 1.5 weeks probably cost $75,000 to $100,000, depending when they were purchased. Today (especially with the officially updated MFs) they are worth $15,000-$20,000 on the resale market. This is an additional cost of $60,000-$80,000, whether you intend to sell or not... doesn't seem like it was worth it after all.  

So even if 480,000 SP are worth $45,000... it's still a bad deal!

(and I omitted the opportunity cost of the upfront investment, which could have been invested in 3%-5% risk free return over the past few years...)


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## YYJMSP

Last comment on the topic of SO-SPG, as I can see that this is a subject that people have clear and strong opinions on, and varied personal experiences with, and I'm not looking to convert anyone to my way of thinking, etc.

If someone really wants to continue the discussion, please feel free to start another thread, as it's been pointed out that this is pretty much off-topic -- my original post was the WKORV 2010 MFs showing up on MSC.



LisaRex said:


> You can't just use the MFs as a point of comparison without including your initial purchase price.



In my purchase decisions, I amortized the up-front capital cost over 15 years (assuming it had no market value at the end of that time) and added in the yearly MFs (assuming 10% yearly increase on those -- yes, I expected after 15 years to pay quadruple what I'm paying now).

My expected annual vacation costs had to be more than that -- i.e. there had to be "excess value" of the SPG points over the MFs.  Essentially, I was looking to "prepay" the accomodations for my holidays for the next 15 years.

If I can continue to get a yearly value of ~3x the MFs paid for the next few years, I expect that I'll "recover" my initial investment roughly on time.  If the units have some residual value, great, but that's a bonus from my way of thinking.

Once again, what works for me in terms of deciding on and using SVN for my particular vacation pattern doesn't necessarily work for anyone else.


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## YYJMSP

I've started a new thread to continue this discussion for those who wish to...


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## YYJMSP

*WKORV [Deluxe] 2BR LO 2010 MFs*

Looks like it's official, since it now shows a due date:

Due Date     01/04/2010  

Current Year Charges 
Maintenance Fee(s)    $ 3,076.69  
Tax - If Applicable    $ 0.00  
Membership Fee - If Applicable    $ 113.53  
Other*    $ 0.00  
Interest    $ 0.00  
Late Fees    $ 0.00  
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.**    $ 5.00  
Sub-Total
Current Year Charges    $ 3,195.22  
Less Payments***    $ 0.00  
Total Due    $ 3,195.22  
Projected Fees for Next Year    $ 3,190.22


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## LisaRex

YYJMSP said:


> Looks like it's official, since it now shows a due date: Due Date     01/04/2010  Projected Fees for Next Year    $ 3,190.22



Tell me this is for a 2 bdrm deluxe.


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## DavidnRobin

LisaRex said:


> Tell me this is for a 2 bdrm deluxe.



It is for a 2Bd Dlx - 25.1% increase over last year - and a 90% jump since 2005 - this %increase will apply to all WKORV VOIs.


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## dss

This is beyond the pale. We really need to get organized and let SVO know this is not a sustainable business for anyone. What are the next steps?


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## dss

The more I think about this, the more upset I get. We're paying $400 a night in maintenance fees for a unit without even basic housekeeping? This is really outrageous.


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## jerseygirl

Not to pour salt in the Hawaii owners' wounds (we're all in the same boat), but have you seen this post from the Hilton board:

_We just got our statement in the mail for Kings Land. (Two Bedroom Platinum) **Increase of $61.51 per unit**

2010 Club Dues: $ 99.00
2010 Hawaii GE Tax: $ 44.05
2010 Operating Fee: $954.36
2010 Reserve Fee: $103.09
2010 Real Estate Taxes: $ 53.34
2010 ARDA Fee: $ 3.00

Total: $1,256.84

For comparison :

2009 Club Dues: $ 99.00
2009 Hawaii GE Tax: $ 42.20
2009 Operating Fee: $920.54
2009 Reserve Fee: $ 92.47
2009 Real Estate Taxes: $ 38.12
2009 ARDA Fee: $ 3.00

Total: $1,195.33_

Kings' Land is on the Big Island, not Maui ... but, still, that's a HUGE difference.  We haven't used our Hilton points in Hawaii yet, so I have no direct experience with the Hawaii Resorts.  But, the HGVC resorts we have visited (all 3 in Vegas, International Drive in Orlando, Valdoro in Breckenridge and a couple of the Florida affiliates) have been pretty close to "on par" with most Starwoods (not the "tippy top" Starwoods, but equal to most).  My perception (maybe not correct) is that the accommodations at the actual HGVC club resorts are a little nicer that those at the affiliates, but the affiliates have locations that can't be beat.

[IMGR][/IMGR]Next year, we're staying in a 2-BR oceanfront (yeah!) in the Lagoon Tower at HGVC in Waikiki, and a 2-BR at the Waikoloa (no view, but reportedly a great resort) on the Big Island.  I'll be able to give more valid comparisons after that trip.


----------



## Weez

Didnt realize this thread was here and just posted this in the Tax increse thread but..........

Well got my invoice in todays mail.

New MF for WKORV is $2,351.36 for 2BR lockoff Annual

Master Association Assessment 160.36
Apartment Ownership Assessment 410.93
Vacation Ownership Assessment 1661.54
SVN Fee 113.53
ARDA-ROC-Pac Contribution 5.00

Ugghhhhhh


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## ciscogizmo1

Nevermind...  I slept on it...


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## LisaRex

YYJMSP said:


> 2BR LO unit at WKORV:
> Total Due    $ 3,190.22



Which means that all WKORV, Harborside and St. John owners can purchase StarPoints outright on the Starwood website from 11/10 to 12/31/09 for LESS than they'll give you for converting.  This must make the folks who bought from the developer even MORE happy that they paid all that extra money for that awesome perk. 

Cost of buying 80,000 SPs on the Starwood website every day: $2800.  
Cost of buying 80,000 SPs from 11/10-12/31/09 (during the 20% off sale): $2240

(Of course, you are still limited to 40k SPs per year, per couple, if you buy them outright. Does that make anyone feel better?)

Oh, what fun it must be to be a Starwood salesman today!


----------



## jerseygirl

*[Moved as requested] **Denise -- I meant to post this on the maintenance fee thread.  I don't want to get in trouble for posting twice.  Can you move it or should I copy it over to that thread and delete this post?*

David -- I found the following clause in the Bay Vista docs (bold added by me):

_(b) Rental. Provided that the Association has properly and timely given notice to notice to a delinquent Owner pursuant to the Declaration and to any affiliated exchange program, the Association is permitted to rent a delinquent Owner’s Vacation Period and any appurtenant use rights and apply the proceeds of such rental, net of any rental commissions, cleaning charges, travel agent commissions, or any other commercially reasonable charges reasonably and usually incurred by the Association in securing rentals, *to the delinquent Owner’s account*. The notice of intent to rent must be given at at least thirty (30) days prior to the first day of the Owner’s Vacation Period, and must be delivered to the Owner in the manner required for notices under the Declaration. The notice of intent to rent, which may be included in the notice required by the Declaration, must state in conspicuous type that: (i) the Association’s efforts to secure a rental will not commence on a date earlier than ten (10) days after the date of the notice of intent to rent; (ii) unless the Owner satisfies the delinquency in full, or unless the Owner produces satisfactory evidence that the delinquency does not exist pursuant to the Declaration, the Owner will be bound by the terms of any rental contract entered into by the Association with respect to the Owner’s Vacation Ownership Interest or appurtenant use rights; and, (iii) the Owner will remain liable for any difference between the amount of the delinquency and the net amount produced by the rental contract and applied against the delinquency pursuant to the Declaration, and the Association shall not be required to provide any further notice to the Owner regarding any residual delinquency pursuant to the Declaration. The Association is not required to: (i) solicit rentals for every or any delinquent Owner’s Vacation Period; (ii) rent the rights associated with the entire Vacation Period; or (iii) obtain the highest nightly rental rate available or any particular rental rate. However, the Association must use reasonable efforts to secure a rental that is commensurate with other rentals of similar Vacation Periods._

Whether they're doing this or not is a different issue.  I also don't know if the language is the same in all the resort docs, but I would bet there's something similar in all of them.

The rental rates probably wouldn't totally offset the delinquencies at some of the resorts (e.g., SVR, which would have to compete with RCI's ridiculous rental rates, as published by Nodge from time-to-time).  But, I would think a disciplined rental program would go along way toward reducing the delinquencies at WKORV/N, WPORV, WSJ, HRA, etc.

As owners, we should be demanding to see a detailed plan for renting delinquent owners' weeks.  As I've stated before, I would love to see an "adopt a week" plan at WSJ (and HRA).  I'm sure skiers would love to see the same at the ski resorts, etc.  But I'm concerned that the last sentence in the above clause may mandate that SVO attempt to obtain a commercial rate.  If they're successful at doing so, fine.  But, if not (especially if they're waiting until the 30-day mark to put something up for rental and reducing the proceeds by daily cleaning fees and high commissions), I really wish they'd publish available "discounted rentals to cover delinquencies" to other owners.  They could use mystarcentral, for example.  It would be a "win win" for all non-delinquent owners (i.e., discounted rental rates and reduced maintenance fees due to not being required to cover the shortfalls caused by delinquent owners).  It also would be prudent for owners to insist that the "rental commissions" mentioned in the clause are reasonable under an "owner rental" program.  

I realize this isn't a simple process, e.g., maintenance fees are due on Jan 1.  What do you do when a January owner doesn't pay?  Drastic times call for drastic measures.  With proper notice (e.g., 2011 use year), I would not be opposed to a rolling due date (e.g., maintenance fees for fixed week owners are due 6-months in advance of the use date to allow for timely notifications and rentals if unpaid).  I haven't had enough coffee to figure out how to deal with floating weeks ... but something needs to be done.  We can all sit back and hope the economy improves and delinquencies disappear, or we can be proactive in protecting our interests.


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## jerseygirl

80,000?

I think my WSJ 3-BR pool villa gets me 25000 SPs or something like that.  Sometimes, Starwood is just plain silly.  :hysterical:


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## chakemco

*Class Action Lawsuit against Starwood and Maui*

Has anyone initiated a class action suit against SVO? I bought less that 5 years ago and my maintenance fees have increased from $1200 to $2400 for a 2BR lock-off. SVO sites increases in Maui tax rules that see the vacation units as individual condominiums. 
Full time residents who own a single family residence pay a paltry $500.00 PER YEAR for a home valued at $500,000.00

So why is it we who spend 1 to 3 weeks per year on the island are getting shafted with these outrageous maintenance fees?

If anyone has started a class action suit, please post the name of the attorney to contact so I can add my name to the list.


----------



## j4sharks

I spoke with a couple of well known class action firms, and after they reviewed the governing documents they came to the conclusion that Starwood gives itself pretty unfettered discretion to jack up MF's as they wish.  Is it lopsided?  Of course.  But it's within the contractual rights they get under the agreements.  Now perhaps another lawyer would be willing to joust at this windmill, but the lawyer needs to see some $$ coming from the fight, or they have no interest in proceeding.  

Another option would be for 1,000 owners to each kick in $100, and then we hire a good lawyer to at least start a lawsuit and initiate discovery.  $100K does not get you too far, but perhaps a serious threat to Starwood could bring about some fruitful negotiation.  Doubtful, since Starwood makes a lot of $$ from the status quo, so they have every incentive to fight, fight, fight.


----------



## DanCali

jerseygirl said:


> *
> (b) Rental. Provided that the Association has properly and timely given notice to notice to a delinquent Owner pursuant to the Declaration and to any affiliated exchange program, the Association is permitted to rent a delinquent Owner’s Vacation Period and any appurtenant use rights and apply the proceeds of such rental, net of any rental commissions, cleaning charges, travel agent commissions, or any other commercially reasonable charges reasonably and usually incurred by the Association in securing rentals, to the delinquent Owner’s account.
> 
> The rental rates probably wouldn't totally offset the delinquencies at some of the resorts (e.g., SVR, which would have to compete with RCI's ridiculous rental rates, as published by Nodge from time-to-time).  But, I would think a disciplined rental program would go along way toward reducing the delinquencies at WKORV/N, WPORV, WSJ, HRA, etc.*


*

My guess is that this is actually worse than we suspect. When Starwood rents a Villa I believe the renter get daily housekeeping. I also believe "standard" rental commissions are 50% - I heard this is more or less what Starwood used to charge when they rented for owners, a program that has been discontinued. So even if Starwood rents a 2BR WKORV $3500 per week ($500/night), the HOA would have $1750 available from which you need to deduct 7 housekeeping charges for a 2BR Villa (pocketed by Starwood too), which can easily be charged at $200/day by Starwood for all we know (it is a 1400 sq condo - and why not charge as much as they can.... they keep the money), so by the time they deduct "travel agent commissions, or any other commercially reasonable charges" the HOA get literally nothing.

Of course allowing other owners to rent delinquent villas would be better for us, but this would be a "win-lose" proposition, with Starwood on the losing end since they would not get inflated rental commissions and housekeeping charges. That is why they won't go along with it even though it makes perfect sense....*


----------



## grgs

*SVR Cascades 2 bedroom (non-LO)*

Maintenance Fee(s) $ 691.23 (note: MSC also includes SA of $523.66 here)
Tax - If Applicable $ 138.83
Membership Fee - If Applicable $ 0.00
Other* $ 0.00
Interest $ 0.00
Late Fees $ 0.00
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.** $ 5.00
Sub-Total
Current Year Charges $ 835.06 (or $ 830.06 w/o ARDA)

2009 mf were approx. $ 768.36 ($ 667.38 MF + $ 100.98 tax)

*8.68% increase over '09*; however, the accompanying newsletter states it's a 3.6% increase.  They only looked at the mf, though, and didn't include the increase in property taxes.  The 2010 taxes are only an estimate, however.  Given the almost $40 increase from 2009, I'm wondering if this is a way to get an interest free loan?  Or, has Florida also significantly increase property taxes on timeshare owners lately?

Glorian


----------



## DanCali

j4sharks said:


> I spoke with a couple of well known class action firms, and after they reviewed the governing documents they came to the conclusion that Starwood gives itself pretty unfettered discretion to jack up MF's as they wish.  Is it lopsided?  Of course.  But it's within the contractual rights they get under the agreements.  Now perhaps another lawyer would be willing to joust at this windmill, but the lawyer needs to see some $$ coming from the fight, or they have no interest in proceeding.
> 
> Another option would be for 1,000 owners to each kick in $100, and then we hire a good lawyer to at least start a lawsuit and initiate discovery.  $100K does not get you too far, but perhaps a serious threat to Starwood could bring about some fruitful negotiation.  Doubtful, since Starwood makes a lot of $$ from the status quo, so they have every incentive to fight, fight, fight.



Organizing 1000 owners is near impossible since Starwood controls the owner list. They make it extremely difficult to organize... I agree that a discovery process would be very interesting and may reveal much more about Starwood's long terms plans for owners. However, if we had a good case there would have been plenty of law firms jumping to do this on a contingency basis (lawyers are the first to get paid in class action suits when they settle) - and that doesn't seem to be the case. 

Starwood is treating this like any capitalist corporation. The abuse of owners will stop only when the cost to Stawod is greater than their benefit of ripping us off. I think 1000 owners picketing outside 9002 San Marco Court in Orlando for a few days may attract enough media attention and damage their reputation enough for them to even consider changing their behavior Otherwise, I fear that any written communication is likely to get generic responses and they will continue to abuse their management privilege.

Suppose 80% of owners are actually willing to forego SVN privileges and lobby for a new management company (needs 50% vote). With the current setup and lack of ability to communicate there is just no way to organize such a vote.

Of course the easy way out is to just take the loss and cash out... I think we'll see many units coming on the market in the coming days/weeks.


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## DavidnRobin

I just saw this..
wow jerseygirl - interesting.
I will respond to this once I can read fully - and related topic.


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## Tiggerman369

Yes, in my opinion (imo) the WKOVR is really overpriced on its maintenance fees, and imo undoubtedly hiding the flow of money to Starwood based on their accounting practice/descriptions.  But the only way we're going to change that is to assemble a true proxy fight to oust the existing Board, and put in a Board that is interested in controlling the Starwood fees, the maintenance fees, and getting the best value for a high end product at WKOVR.  

Starwood set this up with a Board that had shared interests in keeping Starwood.  Starwood needs to be ousted, a new Board elected, contracts rewritten to be owner friendly for future voting (online, from afar, with registration similar to corporate elections voting)  and then rebid the management contracts (Starwood, Marriott, others..)  Anything short of this will likely produce very marginal results.  Starwood has a lock on the voting today (the price increases confirm this), so this year's Board of Directors meeting is already lost, methinks.  Let's target next years BOD meeting for a true revolution!  


If you're interested is joining a proxy fight to take back control for the owners, email me at tiggerman369@gmail.com.  We'll need thousands of votes, but we can do it.  Let's plan a strategy, and get it done.


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## DeniseM

Hi Jeff, and welcome to TUG!  

Since you are new here, would you mind introducing yourself - Thanks!

*Hi, I'm new here!*

Thanks,
Denise


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## Tiggerman369

*Introduction*

Sure.  My name is Jeff Nelson, I'm 54 yrs young.  I live in Seattle, own 2 weeks (fixed weeks 51 and 52) at Maui WKORV.  I retired from the commercial real estate building & leasing and facilities management field, five years ago.  

While these fees won't kill me, I can see we're all being worked over by Starwood for maximum revenue.  No good management company would allow this escalation rate unless they feel untouchable, in my opinion.  

Clearly they have the votes today, because nobody shows up for the meetings.  However, if we arrange even 10% of the ownership to provide proxies to a few folks that are true Owner representatives, we can change that.

Let's do.  I'm willing to provide my proxy to a god representative, or lead and attend next year, whichever is appropriate.  We should have 4-6 individuals represent the Owners, give each an equal number of proxies so that an individual or two can't submarine the effort should there be infiltration.  This will also allow the effort to survive should some folks sell their interest.

Just my thoughts,  Jeff


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## DeniseM

Hi Jeff - The problem is that Starwood makes it very difficult for anyone to get on the BOD because they actually _hand pick the candidates_ that they will allow to run.  There is never a real election, because they paper screen the applications and then choose  the number of people they need to fill the slots and those are the only people on the ballot.  

I have been to the annual meeting at WKORV and it was a joke.  None of the BOD's were there, they all attended by phone, and Starwood rushed through the agenda as quickly as possible, obviously only going through the motions to fulfill the requirements of the law.  Owner questions were brushed off as quickly as possible, and they did not accept motions from the floor.

I admire your enthusiasm, and I'm glad you're joining our team, but even if you had the proxie's for every Starwood owner on the face of the earth, you would only be able to use them to vote for Starwood's hand selected candidates.

On Oct. 19th I requested the Bio's and contact info. for the current WKORV BOD's on mystarcentral.com and received a reply that I would receive it is 7-10 business days - I still haven't gotten it!

Again - Welcome to TUG! - If you click on the link I posted above, you will find a recent thread where newbies and regulars introduced themselves.


----------



## jerseygirl

I'm in six different Starwood associations and I NEVER recall seeing a true BOD election sheet.  I stopped returning my proxies years ago as they contain no information that allows me to make a valid decision.

With all my other timeshares, I receive:


First, a solicitation -- everyone is welcome to run
A BIO sheet with room for a position statement -- you return this if you want to run
Then, with the annual meeting notice, we see all the BIO sheets and position statements and are able to make REAL choices

There's a lot of things I don't like about Starwood's management and administration.  But, I think this is one of the most important, if not *the *most important, item that needs changed.


----------



## DeniseM

jerseygirl - do you think there could be a "non-advertised" way to get on the ballot?  Like write-in candidates, or a petition system?  It's unbelievable to me that it is legal for Starwood to hand pick the BOD.


----------



## jerseygirl

i wish I knew Denise.  That can be my first assignment as "reader of the documents!"     I'm tied up tomorrow, but will see if I can find language relating to the BOD on Monday.


----------



## Tiggerman369

*My Bill Summary, BOD Changes*

I have two weeks, each with a bill of:   

   160.36  - 2010 Master Assoc Assessment 
   410.93  - 2010 Apartment Ownership Assessment 
$1,661.54 - 2010 Vacation Ownership Assessment
$  113.53  - 2010 SVN Membership Fee
       5.00  - 2010 ARDA-ROC-PAC Contribution (Optional)
--------------
$2351.36  -  Total Due for the above 

From my perspective, we can eliminate the Apartment Ownership Assessment, and the SVN Membership fee without effecting my usage.  Then, with some reasonable managing, I'm guessing 200-300 in cost reduction on the 1661 are feasible, so lets' say we could save $700-$800 if we take back control.

Note when Starwood markets new units, they are only telling (based on my experience, and notes from others) customers of the $1,661 fee, and not of the other required fees.  Deceptive?  Of course.  Fraudulent?  Perhaps - I think so.  

Of course they hand pick the Board members, but there is an area for "write-in" Candidates, and voting at the annual meeting is also an option.  All votes must have a valid proxy, and have the representative at the meeting in person.  A quorum is based on people and proxies in attendance at the meeting.  This is what gives them complete control.

Now I haven't received a voting packet this year either, perhaps they are allowed to drop folks who don't vote off the mailings (?).  They wrote and amend the by-laws, so anything is possible.  Still, there is nothing they can do if we arrange for enough proxies, and attend the annual meeting to elect the Board of Directors we want.   But, keep in mind, not every Director is up for election every year, this will require a sustained effort over 2-4 years.  

Cheers.


----------



## DeniseM

There is some good info. about the process in this thread:  

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=624419

Here's another thread with the name of a Starwood Contact who trains and runs the BOD meetings, so might be a good contact re: the election process:

http://69.16.236.4/~tugbbsc/forums/showthread.php?t=85692

His email address would be Shawn.O'Brien@starwoodvo.com or maybe Shawn.OBrien@starwoodvo.com


----------



## jerseygirl

Good info Denise -- thanks!


----------



## DeniseM

I emailed Shawn O'Brien and he responded from his Blackberry that a candidate can be nominated at the BOD meeting.  Hopefully, he will send me more info. when he is back in the office - he's out for the next 10 days.


----------



## jerseygirl

DavidnRobin for President at WSJ !!!  
DeniseM for President at WKORV !!!


----------



## gregb

*WKORV-N 2010 Maintenance Fees*

WKORV-N 2010 Maintenance Fees

$  165.83  -  Master Association Assessment
$  581.77  -  Apartment Ownership Assessment
$1732.00  -  Vacation Ownership Assessment
$  113.53  -  SVN Membership Fee
$      5.00  -  ARDA-ROC PAC Contribution
============================
$2598.13  -  Total
$2479.60  -  Total less SVN Membership and ARDA-ROC PAC contribution

Increase of $614.98 or 33% over 2009. 
Much of the increase is due to increased property taxes and uncollected Maintenance Fees.

Per the glossy sheets included with the bill the following major items contributed to the increase.

$  307.63  increase due to 2010 property tax increase
$  215.77  increase due to uncollected MF in 2009 and increased reserve for uncollected MF in 2010
$  119.35  increase due to short fall in 2009 budget, not clear if this includes the 2009 tax increase?
$    44.76  increase due to reduced developer voluntary contributions.

$    90.70  Decrease in utilities
$    62.97  Decrease in operating expenses (housekeeping, front office, admin, security, etc)

Greg


----------



## Bucky

SBP - 1Br Dlx

2010 Operating Assessment         $325.56
2010 Replacement Reserve              65.59
Total                                             391.15  (+21% Increase)

SBP - 2Br LO

2010 Operating Assessment         $918.20
2010 Replacement Reserve            184.98
Total                                         $1103.18


----------



## rickandcindy23

Bucky said:


> SBP - 1Br Dlx
> 
> 2010 Operating Assessment         $325.56
> 2010 Replacement Reserve              65.59
> Total                                             391.15  (+21% Increase)
> 
> SBP - 2Br LO
> 
> 2010 Operating Assessment         $918.20
> 2010 Replacement Reserve            184.98
> Total                                         $1103.18



That is a huge increase on the lockout!  I have been wondering when we would find out about SBP.


----------



## Bucky

Just got these in the mail yesterday and needless to say I was a little flabbergasted.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Bucky said:


> Just got these in the mail yesterday and needless to say I was a little flabbergasted.



$200 higher for the lockout for 2010!  That's such a surprise to me.  I hope the 2 bedroom standard doesn't have that kind of increase.


----------



## DeniseM

Bucky said:


> SBP - 1Br Dlx
> 
> 2010 Operating Assessment         $325.56
> 2010 Replacement Reserve              65.59
> Total                                             391.15  (+21% Increase)



This must be an EOY deed?


----------



## grgs

rickandcindy23 said:


> $200 higher for the lockout for 2010!  That's such a surprise to me.  I hope the 2 bedroom standard doesn't have that kind of increase.



I imagine it would have the same percentage increase.  I don't think they would have a higher percent increase on one unit type over another.

Glorian


----------



## Bucky

DeniseM said:


> This must be an EOY deed?



Nope.  Every year.  Owned it for about six years now.  Used to only be about $260 per year.


----------



## DeniseM

Bucky said:


> Nope.  Every year.  Owned it for about six years now.  Used to only be about $260 per year.



Ok - nice low MF!


----------



## Bucky

Duh.  Never thought about turning the bill over.  Here's the whole low down on SBP:

$391.15     Dlx 1Br
$500.48     One Br
$712.03     Premium 1Br
$881.62     Two Bedroom
$1103.18    Lockoff

Sorry I didn't catch that earlier.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Bucky said:


> Duh.  Never thought about turning the bill over.  Here's the whole low down on SBP:
> 
> $391.15     Dlx 1Br
> $500.48     One Br
> $712.03     Premium 1Br
> $881.62     Two Bedroom
> $1103.18    Lockoff
> 
> Sorry I didn't catch that earlier.



2009 FEE COMPARISON:

1Bdrm Deluxe: 322.00
1 Bedroom: 412.01
1Bdrm Premium: 586.17
2Bdrm: 725.77 
2Bdrm L/O: 908.17

BUMMER!


----------



## Courts

Vistana Resort Cascades L/O;

Operating Assessment $ 814.78
Replacement Reserve .. $   82.71

Tax - If Applicable  .....     $ 167.62  

Total  =  ..................                 $  1065.11


EDIT:
2009  Tax - If Applicable $ 117.18


----------



## jerseygirl

DeniseM said:


> Ok - nice low MF!



Best kept Starwood secret!  Shhhhhhhhhhhhh ... don't tell anyone!


----------



## RLG

Bucky said:


> Duh.  Never thought about turning the bill over.  Here's the whole low down on SBP:
> 
> $391.15     Dlx 1Br
> $500.48     One Br
> $712.03     Premium 1Br
> $881.62     Two Bedroom
> $1103.18    Lockoff
> 
> Sorry I didn't catch that earlier.



Is your unit at Plantation (the original section) or Palmetto (the new one)?

I'm confused because I own at Plantation and don't have a bill in Mystarcentral for any of my units.  Denise's figures are for the old section.  I'm certainly hoping your bill is for the new section since it would otherwise represent a 21% increase for me.


----------



## DanCali

Bucky said:


> SBP - 1Br Dlx
> 
> 2010 Operating Assessment         $325.56
> 2010 Replacement Reserve              65.59
> Total                                             391.15  (+21% Increase)






Bucky said:


> Nope.  Every year.  Owned it for about six years now.  Used to only be about $260 per year.






DeniseM said:


> Ok - nice low MF!




Certainly a nice low number but it's all relative... it sounds like you couldn't escape the minimum 50% increase over 5-6 years no matter where you hid in the Starwood system. I guess a 50% increase is better than a 90% increase


----------



## durrod

RLG said:


> Is your unit at Plantation (the original section) or Palmetto (the new one)?
> 
> I'm confused because I own at Plantation and don't have a bill in Mystarcentral for any of my units.  Denise's figures are for the old section.  I'm certainly hoping your bill is for the new section since it would otherwise represent a 21% increase for me.



Those numbers are for the old section. Those big increases are due to high delincuency in paying MF. In other words we the still paying owners have to pay for all those who did not pay. Average increase is a 21.5%


----------



## gmarine

*SBP 2010 maintenance fees up over 20%*

Just got my bill for SBP two bedroom lock off. Maintenance fees went from $908 to $1103.  $184.98 they are listing as replacement reserve. They can call it whatever they want. Either way owners are getting screwed. Again.


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM -

why did the MF thread get moved to this SBP thread?  should be the other way around...


----------



## DeniseM

Yes it should have been the other way around!  (I did it backwards!)


----------



## myip

gmarine said:


> Just got my bill for SBP two bedroom lock off. Maintenance fees went from $908 to $1103.  $184.98 they are listing as replacement reserve. They can call it whatever they want. Either way owners are getting screwed. Again.



My 2 bedroom lock off at SBP Palmetto is $967.40 - not including SVN
and my 2 bedroom non-lock-off in the original unit is 881.62


----------



## josh2268

Just got my SVV Bella maintenance fees today for 2 bedroom.  Looks like about 25% increase from previous year. 

$1144.81  2009 Total
$1308.11  2010 Total


$884.75 operating assessment
$134.77 replacement reserve
$174.59 taxes
$109.00 SVN
$5  ARDA-ROC PAC Contribution.

I called starwood to complain as I have seen many others do on this board and all I hear back is starwood is pushing foreclosure on deliquesces as fast as possible.  Once done Starwood will own the units and pay the maintenance fees with income generated by either selling the units or renting them out.   My immediate thought was next year maintenance fees should be reduced because we will not be paying for delinquent owners anymore.  However my gut tells me this to overly optimistic, and from reading others comments with calling probably untrue.


----------



## jands

*Latest timeshare cost*

We just got our bill for Broadway Plantation and was surprised at the number of people not paying their costs. The difference to keep operating is being put on the  people that pay their fair share. Something is wrong with this picture. I wonder if that is legal. I also wonder how many units are being rented out to section 8 parties to keep the income coming in. That doesnt help the situation any and makes it less appealing if they do it. Wish I had never got involved.


----------



## DanCali

josh2268 said:


> I called starwood to complain as I have seen many others do on this board and all I hear back is starwood is pushing foreclosure on deliquesces as fast as possible.  Once done Starwood will own the units and pay the maintenance fees with income generated by either selling the units or renting them out.   My immediate thought was next year maintenance fees should be reduced because we will not be paying for delinquent owners anymore.  However my gut tells me this to overly optimistic, and from reading others comments with calling probably untrue.



I have yet to learn of any Starwood Vacation Ownership resort that has ever had an reduction in MFs. Every year there is a different reason why they raise MFs much more than inflation costs. 

The income from renting delinquent units left over for the HOAs is, in my opinion, close to meaningless since it is net of rental commissions (~50%), daily (7) housekeeping charges, and some other fees. Starwood makes money from these rentals, HOAs don't.... it's a complete sham.

Having paying owners pay the bills of delinquent owners is a house of cards waiting to collapse at any moment. More and more owners will choose to go delinquent, despite the adverse impact on their credit scores, and MFs will rapidly spiral out of control.

Something drastic has to be done to prevent this from happening.


----------



## folashade

Just got the bill for SVV 1 bdrm Key West
2010 Operating assessment 371.74
2010 replacement reserve     68.46
tax                                    123.17
SVN                                    109.00
PAC                                     5
Total                                 * $677.37*


----------



## cherrysaw

*EOY Vistana Villages 2bd*

This is unreal- got my bill today:


Last year:
Maintenance Fee(s)    $ 395.07  

Tax - If Applicable    $ 52.74  

Membership Fee - If Applicable    $ 109.00  

Other*    $ 0.00  

Interest    $ 0.00  

Late Fees    $ 0.00  

ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.**    $ 5.00  

Sub-Total
Total Prior Year Charges    $ 561.81


This Year:
Maintenance Fee(s)    $ 509.76  

Tax - If Applicable    $ 67.01  

Membership Fee - If Applicable    $ 109.00  

Other*    $ 0.00  

Interest    $ 0.00  

Late Fees    $ 0.00  

ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.**    $ 5.00  

Sub-Total
Current Year Charges    $ 690.77  


Total Due    $ 690.77  

That is a $128.96 increase. Seems like a lot to me. No wonder a lot of people aren't paying their fees...

Sue


----------



## jw0

Got my SBP bill in the mail today.  The numbers previously posted are correct.

If I read this correctly, the association takes in $10.3 M in MFs.  The association is setting aside 2.2M for "uncollectible accounts".

That means about 20% of the owners are not paying their fees!  That's a lot of weeks!

Makes me think - either these weeks will be rented out, or they will go unused.

If they're rented out, hopefully our "rental income" will increase.
If they're not used, hopefully our "housekeeping" expense will decrease.

Wishful thinking, I suppose.

-John.


----------



## Troopers

Ugh...just paid both my dues at WKORV.

What a stinker!


----------



## DisneyDerek

*Timeshare Board of Directors*

I find it very intriguing how MFs are increasing across the board when supposedly these increases are voted on and approved by the board of directors for each time share resort.  I guess we know who's really represented (or not represented) at these board meetings.

I don't recall receiving a ballot to approve these outrageous MF increases.  Did anyone receive one?  How can the justifications about "delinquent" timeshare payments from other owners being universally applied for each resort?  Seems like a class action lawsuit should be launched against SVN for misrepresentations (I don't recall our sales rep saying that fees can be increased as high as 24.9% at our resort - KOR).


----------



## tlpnet

I got my SVV Bella and Key West MF bills today. I don't understand how the increase for Bella could be so much higher than Key West. I believe this 28.3% increase is the highest % increase of all the properties' MF's available so far. Breakdown as follows:

2 BR SVV Bella - 2010
Operating Assessment - $884.75
Replacement Reserve - $134.77
Estimated Real Estate Tax - $174.67
Total - $1,194.19
2009 Total - $930.81
Increase - $263.38 - 28.3%

2 BR SVV Key West - 2010
Operating Assessment - $764.50
Replacement Reserve - $141.18
Estimated Real Estate Tax - $157.05
Total - $1,062.73
2009 Total - $936.39
Increase - $126.34 - 13.5%

-tim


----------



## DanCali

One thing that doesn't make sense with all these alleged delinquencies in Orlando is that you would expect owners who can't/won't pay MFs to just list the property for sale and get rid of the liability.

Currently RedWeek has 30 resales listed for WKORV and 32 for WKORVN while SVV has only 10 resale listings, and the Orlando resort is much larger. Owners in Maui also have a reasonable option to rent, so if there are so many delinquencies in both Orlando and Maui it makes even less sense why there are so many more Maui resale listings relative to SVV.

Just based on the number of WedWeek resale listings I would have concluded that Orlando owners were much happier (i.e., paying MFs)...


----------



## DeniseM

DisneyDerek said:


> I find it very intriguing how MFs are increasing across the board when supposedly these increases are voted on and approved by the board of directors for each time share resort.  I guess we know who's really represented (or not represented) at these board meetings.
> 
> I don't recall receiving a ballot to approve these outrageous MF increases.  Did anyone receive one?  How can the justifications about "delinquent" timeshare payments from other owners being universally applied for each resort?  Seems like a class action lawsuit should be launched against SVN for misrepresentations (I don't recall our sales rep saying that fees can be increased as high as 24.9% at our resort - KOR).



Hi Derek - Starwood handpicks the Board of Directors, so you will most likely never get a ballot to approve anything.  Welcome to TUG!  There are lots of us who agree with you!


----------



## jerseygirl

tlpnet said:


> I got my SVV Bella and Key West MF bills today. I don't understand how the increase for Bella could be so much higher than Key West. I believe this 28.3% increase is the highest % increase of all the properties' MF's available so far. Breakdown as follows:
> 
> 2 BR SVV Bella - 2010
> Operating Assessment - $884.75
> Replacement Reserve - $134.77
> Estimated Real Estate Tax - $174.67
> Total - $1,194.19
> 2009 Total - $930.81
> Increase - $263.38 - 28.3%
> 
> 2 BR SVV Key West - 2010
> Operating Assessment - $764.50
> Replacement Reserve - $141.18
> Estimated Real Estate Tax - $157.05
> Total - $1,062.73
> 2009 Total - $936.39
> Increase - $126.34 - 13.5%
> 
> -tim



Is Bella a newer phase than Key West?  It's possible that Starwood dropped/reduced the developer contribution they make to keep fees artifically low while in the sales phase.  They don't tell you about that little joy at the sales presentations either!


----------



## Stefa

jerseygirl said:


> Is Bella a newer phase than Key West?  It's possible that Starwood dropped/reduced the developer contribution they make to keep fees artifically low while in the sales phase.  They don't tell you about that little joy at the sales presentations either!



Bella is older than Key West.  Maybe the developer contribution is keeping the operating expenses lower at Key West...?

Boy, am I glad I sold my Bella.  I owned EOY so was stuck with the SVN fee every year.  Can't imagine paying that much in dues for a biennial.


----------



## bullroc3

Just checked the Broadway Sheraton Plantation - 

Last year (2009) with the $109 SVN Fee - $834.77

2010 with the $109 SVN Fee - $995.62

$160.85 increase - YIKES!!

19.2% increase


----------



## Bucky

I got a little upset with the 21% increase at SBP and wrote Starwood an email.  I just was notified of this message in my Star Central account:

Dear Mr.     ,

Thank you for contacting Association Management.

There has been an increase of 21.5%/$69.15 from 2009. The Board of Directors and the Association reviews and analyzes all avenues to achieve the lowest possible dues increase. Their goal is to bill out fees without sacrificing the level of amenity that you as an owner have come to expect. They must also ensure the resort continues to meet certain brand standards.

Many items in the annual operating budget are not fixed expenses and are outside of the control of the Board of Directors. These items include: utilities, real estate tax, insurance, and supplier cost. This may cause a change in the amount you are billed annually.

Unfortunately your Association has been adversely impacted by the current economy. The increase in owner delinquency has created a shortfall in the Association's cash flow. The Board will continue to reinforce collection efforts to recover lost funds. Those owners who default on their payment will loose their usage benefits for the year. We will also continue to send delinquent notifications, followed by property liens, and foreclosure as a last resort. In addition the Board of Directors has implemented cost savings initiatives such as replacing the paper placemats and napkins to minimize any shortfall.

Being a condominium, all Owners share the responsibility for ensuring that the Association meets these obligations. As the economy improves and delinquencies eventually decline, allowances will be re-evaluated for a potential reduction. However for now, we must all share in ensuring expenses are fully paid and uncollectible accounts provisioned.

We hope this gives you a better understanding of the situation. Should you require further assistance or have additional questions please do not hesitate to contact us back.

Telephone:

Toll-Free 1.888.986.9637
Direct 407.903.4635
United Kingdom 0.800.89.5065
Mexico 001.800.847.8262
Japan 0053.113.0318
All Other Countries 407.903.4640

Email: associationmgmt@starwoodvo.com

Fax: 407.418.7771

Hours of Operation (Eastern Time zone):
Monday– Thursday, 8:00 a.m.– 9:30 p.m.
Friday, 8:00 a.m.– 5:30 p.m.
Saturday- Sunday, Closed

Sincerely,

Wilbia Santiago
SVO Management Inc.


----------



## tschwa2

*20% increase due to delinquencies*

Wouldn't it be nice if we go either 20% of our alloted staroptions or 2 extra weekday days credited to our accounts since we are paying for the time? :hysterical:


----------



## K2Quick

tschwa2 said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if we go either 20% of our alloted staroptions or 2 extra weekday days credited to our accounts since we are paying for the time? :hysterical:



That's a fantastic idea that has zero chance of ever making it into production.  Seriously, if you are paying for some schlub's maintenance fee, why can't you use his space?


----------



## DeniseM

K2Quick said:


> That's a fantastic idea that has zero chance of ever making it into production.  Seriously, if you are paying for some schlub's maintenance fee, why can't you use his space?



Because then Starwood wouldn't get to rent it, and pocket the money!


----------



## James1975NY

Bucky said:


> SBP - 1Br Dlx
> 
> 2010 Operating Assessment         $325.56
> 2010 Replacement Reserve              65.59
> Total                                             391.15  (+21% Increase)
> 
> SBP - 2Br LO
> 
> 2010 Operating Assessment         $918.20
> 2010 Replacement Reserve            184.98
> Total                                         $1103.18



Are these for the new phase (palmetto) or original? Or are they all the same?


----------



## gregb

I know it is a hard pill to swallow, but the HOA only generates income from the MF and it has to pay all the bills each month.  That is a fact of life with a condominium.  If some owners default on their MF, the bills still need to be paid.  So the rest of us end up paying more.  There is really no other place for the HOA to get the money.  They can try to cut costs, but I imagine that everyone would be unhappy if they started closing pools, or not cleaning the grounds, etc.  The HOA should make every effort to collect the delinquent MF, and they say that they are.  Either you believe them, or you don't.

It is true that the developer can kick-in some extra $$ to reduce the MF, but that is only likely at resorts with active sales.  That is one way they can keep the MF low during the developer sales period.  Guess that means that part of the high developer sales price is used to subsidize the MF for early purchasers.  Interesting thought.

Greg


----------



## K2Quick

gregb said:


> I know it is a hard pill to swallow, but the HOA only generates income from the MF and it has to pay all the bills each month.  That is a fact of life with a condominium.  If some owners default on their MF, the bills still need to be paid.  So the rest of us end up paying more.  There is really no other place for the HOA to get the money.  They can try to cut costs, but I imagine that everyone would be unhappy if they started closing pools, or not cleaning the grounds, etc.  The HOA should make every effort to collect the delinquent MF, and they say that they are.  Either you believe them, or you don't.



What makes me skeptical is that Marriott MFs are coming in with increases of two or three percent.  Even the Marriott Maui locations only experienced a 4.3% increase.  What's Marriott doing differently that Starwood is not?  I'm guessing their pools are still open and their grounds are still being taken care of.  Luckily the Starwood unit I own "only" experienced an increase of 7.3%.


----------



## Troopers

K2Quick said:


> What makes me skeptical is that Marriott MFs are coming in with increases of two or three percent.  Even the Marriott Maui locations only experienced a 4.3% increase.  What's Marriott doing differently that Starwood is not?  I'm guessing their pools are still open and their grounds are still being taken care of.  Luckily the Starwood unit I own "only" experienced an increase of 7.3%.



I'm with you...very suspicious.


----------



## Synergist

*Help!! Mtc Fee Increase!*

Ok I'm very confused and I feel completely taken advantage of,  I got my Yearly MTC bill today for Vistina Villages in Orlando,  My bill for a 2 BEDROOM RED WEEK was around 1250.00

A 29% increase over last year ..   Last year was around 950.00 

Can they legally increase my fee's this much?   I know things are bad but to increase my fee's this much because other people are not paying the bill isn't going to solve anything.  Whats going to happen now is more people are not going to pay their bill. 

My Question is ,  If I don't pay this,  Do I just forfeit this year?  Or will I have to back pay this year to use it going forward?

Last question,  Cherrysaw : why is your fee so much less then mine?  Is it different weeks?




cherrysaw said:


> This is unreal- got my bill today:
> 
> 
> Last year:
> Maintenance Fee(s)    $ 395.07
> 
> Tax - If Applicable    $ 52.74
> 
> Membership Fee - If Applicable    $ 109.00
> 
> Other*    $ 0.00
> 
> Interest    $ 0.00
> 
> Late Fees    $ 0.00
> 
> ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.**    $ 5.00
> 
> Sub-Total
> Total Prior Year Charges    $ 561.81
> 
> 
> This Year:
> Maintenance Fee(s)    $ 509.76
> 
> Tax - If Applicable    $ 67.01
> 
> Membership Fee - If Applicable    $ 109.00
> 
> Other*    $ 0.00
> 
> Interest    $ 0.00
> 
> Late Fees    $ 0.00
> 
> ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.**    $ 5.00
> 
> Sub-Total
> Current Year Charges    $ 690.77
> 
> 
> Total Due    $ 690.77
> 
> That is a $128.96 increase. Seems like a lot to me. No wonder a lot of people aren't paying their fees...
> 
> Sue


----------



## DeniseM

Hi and welcome to TUG!  

Each resort has a board of directors that represents the owners and makes decisions "in the best interest of the owners."  Apparently all the BOD's thought a huge increase was a good idea this year....   

If you don't pay your MF, they will turn you over to collections, ruin your credit, and eventually foreclose on your ownership...not to mention that you would be placing the burden of your MF's on the shoulders of paying owners.....


----------



## Synergist

DeniseM said:


> Hi and welcome to TUG!
> 
> Each resort has a board of directors that represents the owners and makes decisions "in the best interest of the owners."  Apparently all the BOD's thought a huge increase was a good idea this year....
> 
> If you don't pay your MF, they will turn you over to collections, ruin your credit, and eventually foreclose on your ownership...not to mention that you would be placing the burden of your MF's on the shoulders of paying owners.....



Thanks Denise,  So I gather the question is legally is there anything we can do,  This could just be the start to a domino effect as you raise prices, more people don't pay and thus they may continue to increase prices...  Ultimately in a few years this could double / triple.


----------



## DeniseM

See the following threads regarding actions that Maui and WSJ owners are taking:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109911

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=818175&postcount=311


----------



## Ågent99

DeniseM said:


> Hi and welcome to TUG!
> 
> Each resort has a board of directors that represents the owners and makes decisions "in the best interest of the owners."  Apparently all the BOD's thought a huge increase was a good idea this year....
> 
> If you don't pay your MF, they will turn you over to collections, ruin your credit, and eventually foreclose on your ownership...not to mention that you would be placing the burden of your MF's on the shoulders of paying owners.....



What if we ALL agree not to pay!!  We need to create a "union" of sorts!! :hysterical: 

Okay, my bill:

2010 Master Associate Assessment  $165.83
2010 Apartment Ownership Assessment  $581.77
2010 Vacation Ownership Assessment  $1772.00
2010 SVN Membership Fee  $113.53
2010 SVN Membership Fee Add'l Week $34.38
2010 ARDA-ROC PAC Contribution $10.00

So I have $2677.51 due on January 4, 2010.

I paid $2025.30 for 2009.  A 32% increase?!?!  THIS OFFICIALLY SUX!  

This is for the WKORV-N.

I have a 2-BD L/O for a week (which usually splits out to 1-BD for 1 week and Studio for 1 week).


----------



## xcg001

Ok, long time lurker furious by the resent events.

I think the only strong way to stop starwood theft from the real resort owners (us) is to throw sock pupet board of director for various HOA. Aren't there a strong laws in Florida in regards to developer influence on the HOA board? We should all take an example from the fight Worldmark owners are fighting against their developer (Wyndham) -  they have managed so far to organize almost 1/4 of the ~ 300,000 members on their recent elections. 
I think throwing out the stooges that Starwood have planted on various HOA boards should be a much easier task. After all individual resorts are much smaller and to organize owner revolt should require much less effort.
I would personally donate several hundred dollars for a lawsuit against Starwood. I also plan to write to AG of Florida (unfortunately I do not own florida resort nor have I ever attempt to run for one of the starwood HOA boards) to see what our options are against a developer that attempts to "vett" HOA board members. 
If anybody has attempted (preferably documented his efford) to run on one of starwood HOA boards and have been denied I think this can be a really strong argument against them. 
Another good approach will be to try to organize an owners of relatively small resort (SDO comes to my mind) by collecting contact information of the owners from the county of the resort. I am also ready to donate to someone willing to organize such data collection/mass mailing operation.


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## jerseygirl

xcg001 --

I am mining data to collect owner information for Broadway Plantation Phase One.  It is my intention to contact approximately 1500* owners and direct them to a website where ....  don't want to give too much info here for Starwood to read, but you get the picture.  

*Unless someone knows how to purchase the owner names at a reasonable cost, there's only so many hours one can spend looking up the data.

It's a small start ... but I have time on my hands right now and I've had about all I can take from Starwood.  

I would love to do the same things at Harborside and WSJ, where an effective owner rental program could go a long way toward reducing the impact of delinquencies.  Unfortunately, it's not as easy to find owner data.  But, I'm willing to get involved in all efforts involving those resorts as well.

I also think there are great opportunities with the Florida resorts, as Florida tends to have the most detailed owner-protection laws.  Your intentions are a great start -- go for it !!!

If everyone just does SOMETHING to stop this madness, progress can and will be made.

-- Jerseygirl


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## DanCali

gregb said:


> I know it is a hard pill to swallow, but the HOA only generates income from the MF and it has to pay all the bills each month.  That is a fact of life with a condominium.  If some owners default on their MF, the bills still need to be paid.  So the rest of us end up paying more.  There is really no other place for the HOA to get the money.  They can try to cut costs, but I imagine that everyone would be unhappy if they started closing pools, or not cleaning the grounds, etc.  The HOA should make every effort to collect the delinquent MF, and they say that they are.  Either you believe them, or you don't.



gregb - it is true that an obligation is an obligation and the bills need to be paid. But what are the bills? What has Starwood done to keep them in check until the recent delinquencies?

Let's not forget that Starwood contributed greatly to us getting to this situation... (i) they were and still are selling these timeshares to quite a few people who cannot really afford them using aggressive sales tactics and easy financing, and (ii) they priced more people out by increasing MFs by 10% on average per year, every year, even when there were no delinquencies and the economy was good.

So now when you have a lot of people who can't pay these ridiculous MFs what should they default on first? Their mortgage/rent, credit cards, or timeshare?

If subprime lending brought down the US whole economy, I'm not sure that SVO is not on a similar track. I wish I end up being very wrong on this and we can all laugh at my panic next year... I'll probably be known as *WoodIsDaBest in that event!


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## xcg001

jerseygirl,

I am actually an owner at SBP (Plantation phase) and it will be a great think if you can organize this for our resort but I think it will be harder than St. John for 2 reasons: 1st Starwood probably has a lot of deeds (and probably votes coming with such deeds) from the old section just because they get these as a trade-ins from the people "upgrading" to Palmeto section and 2nd I think SBP is relatively large resort and a lot of owners may be still part of the SVN and may fear they will loose such benefits if we elect independent HOA. Anyway when you get ready to launch you website PM me an email where I can PayPal you some donation for the hard work.

One think that I can think of for cheaper data-mining can be hiring some college/high school kids for help. I have no idea how to access Horry county info - all the actual pages from the registrar of deeds come empty on the Horry county website so it may help with only getting the deed/page numbers and then physically looking at the pages in the local register in MB.


----------



## RLG

jands said:


> I also wonder how many units are being rented out to section 8 parties to keep the income coming in.



Do you have some reason to think this is being done at all?  I certainly have never heard of it.


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## cherrysaw

*Synergist*

"Last question, Cherrysaw : why is your fee so much less then mine? Is it different weeks?"


I assume mine are less because we own EOY (every other year) which PO's me more because I just realized that annual owners pay the $109 starwood membership fee & USE their timeshare every year. I pay $109 EVERY year but only get to use mine ONCE in a two year period. Makes it seem like I pay that fee double for only one use...
Sue


----------



## He Hate Me

cherrysaw said:


> ....we own EOY (every other year) which PO's me more because I just realized that annual owners pay the $109 starwood membership fee & USE their timeshare every year. I pay $109 EVERY year but only get to use mine ONCE in a two year period. Makes it seem like I pay that fee double for only one use...



Don't forget about the $20 administrative fee that Starwood charges each EOY owner for the luxury of non-annual usage.  It may be a little easier to stomach if you think about the membership to II which is included in your SVN fee.  This allows you to travel on Getaways during off-use years.  It's not equal to $129 ($109+20), but......

HHM


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## DeniseM

He Hate Me!  Long time no see!


----------



## jw0

Been thinking of these issues, and was wondering if this is a potential solution.

Presumably, the "reserves" we pay into are partly for pay for long-term maintenance/upkeep issues, and perhaps an eventual refurbishment.  (When I was at SBP last month, I did hear rumblings from the salesmen that the old phase may be refurbished soon, but then again you know what they say about salesmen's words)   So somewhere (again, presumably) there is a balance of cash stored up to pay for this.

Is it legal to tap into these funds for this year?  Is this even a good idea?  As a group of owners, can we say, "let's postpone the refurbishment for a year or two" and therefore apply the some of the $ towards the delinquent fees?

I don't know enough about real estate to know if this idea is good or not.  It does seem that many owners are struggling, and increasing the fees so much may just prompt more owners to stop paying and compound the problem.  If it's legal to tap into the reserve funds, perhaps this idea should be explored and/or proposed to the board.  Again, when I was at SBP, I was completely satisfied with our room in the "old" phase; paying for a refurbishment would seem to be a poor use of capital.

-John.


----------



## gregb

jw0 said:


> Been thinking of these issues, and was wondering if this is a potential solution.
> 
> Is it legal to tap into these funds for this year?  Is this even a good idea?  As a group of owners, can we say, "let's postpone the refurbishment for a year or two" and therefore apply the some of the $ towards the delinquent fees?
> -John.



John,  The reserves are a capital fund and I think that the Board is legally prohibited from tapping this fund for operating expenses.  While your suggestion might make sense today, the rules are setup to prevent the board from gutting the capital funds.  

The reserve funds should collect enough over time to pay for the expected replacement of items as they reach the end of their useful life.  Without the reserve, every time they need to paint the units, they would have to do a special assessment.  But of course, a major refurbishment may cost more than the amount set aside, so a special assessment for that sometimes ends up being needed.

I believe that several of the buildings in the south side of WKORV have been repainted and some of the furniture has been replaced at 5 years.  I think they had enough in the reserves so that they did not need a special assessment for this.  I am not sure, since my ownership is on the north side.

Greg


----------



## jw0

gregb said:


> John,  The reserves are a capital fund and I think that the Board is legally prohibited from tapping this fund for operating expenses.  While your suggestion might make sense today, the rules are setup to prevent the board from gutting the capital funds.
> Greg



Hi, Greg.  Thanks for your insight.  Just wishful thinking on my part, I guess.  At SBP, I noticeed that the reserve expenses this year was $147.83, which would go quite a ways to make up for the $157.09 in "uncollectible expenses" (for the 2BR I own).  Thus, even if we didn't technically dip into the fund, but just contributed less into it this year, that would have helped reduce the MF increase..

Its unfortunate.  You hear of businesses and municipal governments hronically underfunding their pension plans, and somehow that's ok.  I had hoped that if we somehow petitioned our board something could have been arranged.

Hopefully, the board realizes what extraordinary times this is, and will decide to postpone any refurbishment if there was one in the works.  I could live without the granite countertops for a few more years if needed.

-John.


----------



## lily28

sheraton broadway plantation,  1 bedroom

$505.48, an increase of $100 over last yr or 25%


----------



## James1975NY

*Harborside Resort at Atlantis I & II*

Does anyone have their bills for HRA I & II?


----------



## Ken555

Is there a legal limit regarding the increase a Board may make for timeshares without requiring a vote of the owners? In California residential associations, as an example, can not increase dues more than 20% without a full vote of all owners. Obviously, timeshares are a different situation, but it seems strange to me that the Board is allowed to increase without limits.


----------



## DanCali

Ken555 said:


> Is there a legal limit regarding the increase a Board may make for timeshares without requiring a vote of the owners? In California residential associations, as an example, can not increase dues more than 20% without a full vote of all owners. Obviously, timeshares are a different situation, but it seems strange to me that the Board is allowed to increase without limits.



I don't believe Starwood has any legal limits on how much MFs can go up. We've been discussing for the past few weeks (in other threads) how this is a conflict of interest since they get 10%-20% off the top. However, if the limit was 20%, it wouldn't make much difference since it's the consistent 10%-15% across the years increases that destroy the system and doubled MFs in the past 5 years.

Worldmark has a 5% annual cap written into their owner bylaws (and annual increases were actualy less) - but I am not aware of other systems with a similar commitment to owners. 

The fact that the Worldmark system sustains itself means that MFs across their resorts really do not go up by more than 5% on average, but I think their point system is set up that if one resort has costs go up by 7% and one has costs go up by 3% they can subsidize each other. Starwood's separately managed resorts cannot do that, but if ALL resorts have MFs go up by 8% or more (and up to 25% in a few cases) then something is terribly wrong with the system.


----------



## pianodinosaur

A 2 bedroom summer season Sheraton Mountain Vista just sold on ebay for $1.00.  The listing agent was sellingtimeguys.  The MFs were advertised as $1050.17.  It certainly appears that as MFs go up the resale value goes down.


----------



## Ken555

*WoodMFs2Hi said:


> I don't believe Starwood has any legal limits on how much MFs can go up.



I suspect you're correct, but it would be nice to get a definitive answer. 

Even in the case of California's imposed limits, emergency methods of raising fees exist (but in this instance, the info needs to be communicated with the owners, etc). I don't believe Florida timeshares have such a limit (I recall asking the question a year or two ago on TUG, but don't recall the answer...).


----------



## Ken555

*WoodMFs2Hi said:


> Worldmark has a 5% annual cap written into their owner bylaws (and annual increases were actualy less) - but I am not aware of other systems with a similar commitment to owners.
> 
> The fact that the Worldmark system sustains itself means that MFs across their resorts really do not go up by more than 5% on average, but I think their point system is set up that if one resort has costs go up by 7% and one has costs go up by 3% they can subsidize each other. Starwood's separately managed resorts cannot do that, but if ALL resorts have MFs go up by 8% or more (and up to 25% in a few cases) then something is terribly wrong with the system.



Do you think it appropriate to compare Worldmark with Starwood? I wasn't aware they were on par with each other. A more appropriate comparison may be Marriott (and I believe it's been posted that Marriott resorts haven't increased as much this year). Regardless, we all acknowledge that something fishy is going on with SVN regarding the MFs.

I'm now beginning to wonder if the Board(s) even considered taking a loan out to assist with the (temporary) increase in MFs due to some owners not paying. I realize that loans are difficult to obtain currently, but HOAs are traditionally (timeshares may be harder, even so) excellent credit risks for banks. A loan may have increased my MF by $5 this year rather than $66 at SVR (as an example), and could/should be paid back next year in full when funds are recovered by foreclosure, acquisition, collections, etc. But, if the Boards want the owners to get used to a higher MF then this is certainly one way to do it, and then next year - assuming defaults are not as common - they can increase other areas of the budget and then be able to say the MFs didn't increase much, etc.

In any case, the bottom line is that the Starwood resort Board's appear to make decisions for the benefit of Starwood and not the owners. We've seen this type of behavior in the past, and though they spin it owners obviously have little input or consideration in their decision making process. 

I sympathize with all of you WKORV owners. The increase there is simply unreal.


----------



## Weez

DeniseM said:


> See the following threads regarding actions that Maui and WSJ owners are taking:
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109911
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=818175&postcount=311



Hey Denise, its not a big deal but the second link, links to an individual post and not the thread. Most can figure it out but not sure everyone realizes its happening.


----------



## MON2REY

Do we know.......is Starwood spreading the cost of delinquent accounts across all properties or are we paying for deliquencies in our own villas?  If they are spreading them across all, how are they determining the spread?


----------



## DanCali

Ken555 said:


> Do you think it appropriate to compare Worldmark with Starwood? I wasn't aware they were on par with each other. A more appropriate comparison may be Marriott (and I believe it's been posted that Marriott resorts haven't increased as much this year). Regardless, we all acknowledge that something fishy is going on with SVN regarding the MFs.



Certainly most Starwood and Marriott properties are a step above most Worldmark properties so they are not comparable in quality. As a result, the level of maintenance fees at Worldmark should be (and is) lower.

I do think that they should be comparable in terms of annual percentage increases, because the reasons/excuses to increase MFs should be similar (energy costs, labor costs, material costs etc). So if the point equivalent of a WM 2BR MFs are $800 and a 2BR SVO unit MFs are $1600, then a 5% increase would result in a $40 increase to the WM owner and $80 to the SVO owner, but percentage-wise the increase should be similar... Inflation in the US is 2%-3% on average so why should increases in MFs be consistently greater than 5%?


----------



## Stefa

MON2REY said:


> Do we know.......is Starwood spreading the cost of delinquent accounts across all properties or are we paying for deliquencies in our own villas?  If they are spreading them across all, how are they determining the spread?



Each HOA has to deal with their own delinquencies.


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## DanCali

MON2REY said:


> Do we know.......is Starwood spreading the cost of delinquent accounts across all properties or are we paying for deliquencies in our own villas?  If they are spreading them across all, how are they determining the spread?



It appears that each property and even phase is on its own. At SVV Key West villas had "only" a 13% increase vs 25% at the Bella Condos.


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## gregb

MON2REY said:


> Do we know.......is Starwood spreading the cost of delinquent accounts across all properties or are we paying for deliquencies in our own villas?  If they are spreading them across all, how are they determining the spread?



Each property (or phase) is created as a separate entity, so the costs cannot be shared between the properties.  If you were a SVV owner, would you like to be paying a higher MF so that we owners and WKORVN can pay a lower one?  I think not.

If WorldMark is doing that, I think they can do it because they are a points based system, and all the resorts may be owned by the same entity.

Also, I believe that the laws of the state in which the TS exits are the operative laws.  So, for example, SVV is subject to Florida laws, but WKORV is subject to Hawaii law.

Greg


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## tbonessc

SVV Bella 1 Bedroom
2010
Maintenance Fee(s)	  $ 473.07
Tax - If Applicable	  $ 123.84
Membership Fee    	  $ 109.00
Current Year Charges	  $ 710.91

2009
Maintenance Fee(s)	  $ 366.88
Tax - If Applicable	  $ 97.71
Membership Fee	          $ 109.00
Total Year Charges	  $ 573.59

Total fee increase of 24%, if I just look at the maintenance portion of the fees it's a 29% increase.


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## jerseygirl

Do we have a potential "Maui" tax issue with Florida as well?  There's no way the real estate value of these units is increasing so why the big tax increases?  Did Florida raise the tax rates for everyone?  I didn't even notice this on mine ... just seeing a pattern in these posts.

Anyone know anything?


----------



## gregb

jerseygirl said:


> Do we have a potential "Maui" tax issue with Florida as well?  There's no way the real estate value of these units is increasing so why the big tax increases?  Did Florida raise the tax rates for everyone?  I didn't even notice this on mine ... just seeing a pattern in these posts.
> 
> Anyone know anything?



Not sure what is happening in Florida.  In Maui, Hawaii, it turns out they didn't change the tax rate, they changed the way they assessed the property value.  They used to assess it as if it was a hotel, which meant the value was based on replacement cost.  For the 2009/10 tax year, they decided that timeshares should be assessed as if they were regular condominiums.  So they are basing the tax assessment on the "Fair Market Value" of the units.  It has not been explained how they arrived at the FMV, but it appears they are using the inflated developer sales prices  not the resale prices.

Greg


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## Ken555

*WoodMFs2Hi said:


> Certainly most Starwood and Marriott properties are a step above most Worldmark properties so they are not comparable in quality. As a result, the level of maintenance fees at Worldmark should be (and is) lower.
> 
> I do think that they should be comparable in terms of annual percentage increases, because the reasons/excuses to increase MFs should be similar (energy costs, labor costs, material costs etc). So if the point equivalent of a WM 2BR MFs are $800 and a 2BR SVO unit MFs are $1600, then a 5% increase would result in a $40 increase to the WM owner and $80 to the SVO owner, but percentage-wise the increase should be similar... Inflation in the US is 2%-3% on average so why should increases in MFs be consistently greater than 5%?



Actually, I'm not convinced that MF % increases should be in line across the entire industry as you do. It's more important, IMO, to understand what specifically is changing at the resorts in order to determine an accurate comparison. Even similar size/quality resorts may be vastly different in how they are run, and the activities/expenses (as an example) at one but not the other. I am by no means defending Starwood. I think the MF increases is appalling and a severe lack of judgment on behalf of the owners.

In the end, I suspect Starwood's actions will result in the eventual owner control of the Boards. Unfortunately, this may take another bunch of years before it occurs. The sad fact is that most people don't care ~ they'll either pay and complain (but not do anything, which is all too common these days), walk away or sell.


----------



## Courts

K2Quick said:


> What makes me skeptical is that Marriott MFs are coming in with increases of two or three percent.  Even the Marriott Maui locations only experienced a 4.3% increase.  *What's Marriott doing differently that Starwood is not?*  I'm guessing their pools are still open and their grounds are still being taken care of.  Luckily the Starwood unit I own "only" experienced an increase of 7.3%.


This may be a clue, first quarter results:

Starwood;
But total *revenue fell 23.7 percent *to $1.1 billion, hurt by weakness in luxury brands and abroad.

Marriott;
*Revenue fell 15 percent *to $2.5 billion. 

http://www.gurufocus.com/news.php?id=54057

Could Starwood be using timeshare owners for a ....revenue source ???


.


----------



## DanCali

Ken555 said:


> Actually, I'm not convinced that MF % increases should be in line across the entire industry as you do. It's more important, IMO, to understand what specifically is changing at the resorts in order to determine an accurate comparison. Even similar size/quality resorts may be vastly different in how they are run, and the activities/expenses (as an example) at one but not the other. I am by no means defending Starwood. I think the MF increases is appalling and a severe lack of judgment on behalf of the owners.



Many of the things you point out would be reflected in the level of MFs. For example, one resort may have 4 employees per 2BR and one may have 6 employees per 2BR because the latter provides better service, kids activities, etc. But if labor costs go up 10%, both resorts should have a 10% increase on that line item. This is the point I was getting at. Similarly, if energy costs go up by 20%, all resorts should experience that equally regardless of how much energy they were consuming to begin with.

Of course individual resorts can vary, and things may not be the same, especially so if you are looking at different geographies. Your point that you need to look at what is changing in each particular place is well taken (e.g. there may even be differences between WKORV and WKORVN, or SVV Bella and Key West) but I don't think my logic is wrong as a first level of approximation. 

In regards to the point you raised earlier regarding Marriott, even if you take Marriott as the right comparable and compare Marriott Florida vs. SVO Florida, Mariott Hawaii vs. SVO Hawaii, their 2010 MFs (in particular operating MFs) are pretty much flat while Starwood reeks pretty much across the board...

Frankly, I am not sure the house of cards will remain standing until owners can take control of the Boards.


----------



## James1975NY

pianodinosaur said:


> A 2 bedroom summer season Sheraton Mountain Vista just sold on ebay for $1.00.  The listing agent was sellingtimeguys.  The MFs were advertised as $1050.17.  It certainly appears that as MFs go up the resale value goes down.



Sounds like this is probabaly a sale done through one of those companies that charges 2-3k upfront to sell and then dumping on e-bay for $1.


----------



## Synergist

*My 2010 Vistina Villiges Bill*

Thought this would help,  29% increase..


2010 Vistina Villages 
2 Bedroom

2010 Operating Assessment  :884.75
2010 Replacement Reserve   : 137.77
2010 Estimated Real Estate Tax :134.02
2010 SVN Membership Fee      :109.00
2010 ARDA-ROC PAC Contribution 5.00

Grand Total 1267.54


Then they sent a note saying this :

"2010 OPERATING PLAN AND BUDGET"

As your have read, heard and even experienced,  the current economic conditions are impacting us all.  Bella Flordia Condominium Assoc, Inc. is also feeling the impact and is not exempt from it's effects.  Your Resort Team, Board of Directors and Management Company have collectively worked to find efficiencies in the daily operating costs within the 2010 budget. Some significant expense savings have materialized; however, there has been the need to incorporate additional provisions due to shortfalls in maintenance fee collection. Overall, your average maintenance fee will be increasing 29.0% or $221.25 per ownership week versus your 2009 budget. "

I have full copies of both and post up to the web if neccessary.

Overall. It's BS.


----------



## Ken555

*WoodMFs2Hi said:


> Frankly, I am not sure the house of cards will remain standing until owners can take control of the Boards.



It's been said before, but... if you search back you'll find many of us said the same thing years ago on TUG. We've been waiting for Starwood to make such a blunder that it prompts the majority of owners to take action. Until that occurs, nothing will change.


----------



## jerseygirl

gregb said:


> Not sure what is happening in Florida.  In Maui, Hawaii, it turns out they didn't change the tax rate, they changed the way they assessed the property value.  They used to assess it as if it was a hotel, which meant the value was based on replacement cost.  For the 2009/10 tax year, they decided that timeshares should be assessed as if they were regular condominiums.  So they are basing the tax assessment on the "Fair Market Value" of the units.  It has not been explained how they arrived at the FMV, but it appears they are using the inflated developer sales prices  not the resale prices.
> 
> Greg



Thanks, but I thought I had read here that a tsowner is paying a much higher rate than a regular homeowner ... hence the lawsuit by ARDA.  Did I misunderstand?


----------



## DeniseM

In Maui County, there is a "special" higher property tax rate for TS's.


----------



## gregb

jerseygirl said:


> Thanks, but I thought I had read here that a tsowner is paying a much higher rate than a regular homeowner ... hence the lawsuit by ARDA.  Did I misunderstand?



Hi JerseyGirl,

In Maui the Timeshare tax rate is $18 per $1000 of valuation.  The condo owner pays something like $6 or $8 (I forget exactly) per 1000.  So that is a big difference.  And when we first heard about the huge tax increase for WKORVN, we thought it was due to this large difference in tax rates.  But come to find out, that rate difference has been around for several years.  So it was not the tax rate that changed.

What changed is that for the 2009/20010 tax year, Maui decided to change the way they calculate the FMV of TimeShare property.  In the past they have set the property value for TimeShares as if they were hotels (based on replacement value).  To generate more revenue, this year they decided to base the property value on unit sales prices, just like they do for condos.  This has resulted in a huge increase in the valuation of the property for tax purposes and the WKORVN property tax has gone from about $1.6M for 2008/2009 to $6.4M for 2009/2010.  That kind of increase gets your attention.  Along with the reserves for delinquent MF payments, we have had a 33% increase in MF from 2009 to 2010!

The board says it is appealing the valuation and the valuation method.  We will see how that comes out. 

Greg


----------



## Bucky

James1975NY said:


> Are these for the new phase (palmetto) or original? Or are they all the same?



All the same.


----------



## jerseygirl

gregb said:


> Hi JerseyGirl,
> 
> In Maui the Timeshare tax rate is $18 per $1000 of valuation.  The condo owner pays something like $6 or $8 (I forget exactly) per 1000.  So that is a big difference.  And when we first heard about the huge tax increase for WKORVN, we thought it was due to this large difference in tax rates.  But come to find out, that rate difference has been around for several years.  So it was not the tax rate that changed.
> 
> What changed is that for the 2009/20010 tax year, Maui decided to change the way they calculate the FMV of TimeShare property.  In the past they have set the property value for TimeShares as if they were hotels (based on replacement value).  To generate more revenue, this year they decided to base the property value on unit sales prices, just like they do for condos.  This has resulted in a huge increase in the valuation of the property for tax purposes and the WKORVN property tax has gone from about $1.6M for 2008/2009 to $6.4M for 2009/2010.  That kind of increase gets your attention.  Along with the reserves for delinquent MF payments, we have had a 33% increase in MF from 2009 to 2010!
> 
> The board says it is appealing the valuation and the valuation method.  We will see how that comes out.
> 
> Greg



Thanks Greg.  So WKORV/N owners have two problems -- the unfair tax rate (3X the condo owner rate -- that's unbelievable) and the valuations.  Owners should be sending the county the results of ebay auctions since Starwood will never admit to the more realistic valuations.  Wow, I'm amazed this was considered legal -- makes me want to cancel my trip to Maui next year.  I'm so past fed-up with those who are taking advantage of timeshare owners.  I probably won't cancel, but we're visiting three other islands.  I'll be sure to spend any discretionary tourist dollars on those islands.


----------



## LisaRex

Maui's TS rate is $14.00 per $1,000 of valuation. Private homeowners, including I assume condo owners, pay $2.00 per $1,000, so our rate is seven times that of a homeowner and almost double of a hotel, which pays $8.20 per $1,000. 

http://www.mauipropertysearch.com/Maui_20_County_20_Property_20_Tax_20_Rate.html

A. Improved Residential $4.85 $4.85 
B. Apartment $4.55 $4.55 
C. Commercial $6.25 $6.25 
D. Industrial $6.50 $6.50 
E. Agricultural $4.50 $4.50 
F. Conservation $4.75 $4.75 
G. Hotel & Resort $8.20 $8.20 
H. Unimproved Residential $5.35 $5.35 
I. Homeowner $2.00 $2.00 
J. Time Share $14.00 $14.00 

I think what changed this year is the language that the assessment would be valued at the "highest and best use."


----------



## gregb

LisaRex said:


> Maui's TS rate is $14.00 per $1,000 of valuation. Private homeowners, including I assume condo owners, pay $2.00 per $1,000, so our rate is seven times that of a homeowner and almost double of a hotel, which pays $8.20 per $1,000.
> 
> http://www.mauipropertysearch.com/Maui_20_County_20_Property_20_Tax_20_Rate.html
> 
> A. Improved Residential $4.85 $4.85
> B. Apartment $4.55 $4.55
> C. Commercial $6.25 $6.25
> D. Industrial $6.50 $6.50
> E. Agricultural $4.50 $4.50
> F. Conservation $4.75 $4.75
> G. Hotel & Resort $8.20 $8.20
> H. Unimproved Residential $5.35 $5.35
> I. Homeowner $2.00 $2.00
> J. Time Share $14.00 $14.00
> 
> I think what changed this year is the language that the assessment would be valued at the "highest and best use."



LisaRex,  I think that apartments are a better comparison for TimeShares.  That or Hotels.  

From a fairness and comparable impact on the local economy/environment, it really only seems fair that the Time Shares and Hotels pay the same rate.  But that is not the case.  I believe that Maui may be within their rights to set the tax rate at whatever they feel the market will bear.  That doesn't make it fair, but I think they can probably do it. 

On the other hand, I believe there are rules about how to value property and I believe that they have gone beyond the pale in the increased property values they have set for the Maui time shares.

Greg


----------



## LisaRex

gregb said:


> LisaRex,  I think that apartments are a better comparison for TimeShares.  That or Hotels.



I would agree, though I also think it would be fairer to tax privately owned condos that are used as a primary or even secondary "residence" at a lower rate than those who rent it out most of the year.

I stayed in a privately owned 2 bdrm condo at Kaanapali Shores back in '06 and it was equivalent in size and amenities to my timeshare.  If Maui county is arguing that timeshare owners are escaping paying our fair share of taxes, then folks who rent from private condo owners or private homeowners (who I believe only have to pay a $2 per $1000 rate, though it's possible the the condos are taxed at the apartment rate), should be taxed at an equivalent (but much lower IMO) rate. 

But, honestly, I don't think that Maui county has a beef with timeshare owners.  Rather I believe that they're ticked at the developers, who are reaping huge profits while the locals are suffering.  Similar situation is happening on St. John.    

I work for a large corporation and we work hard to maintain a positive standing in the community.  We contribute millions of dollars to the arts, United Way, and local schools each year, in addition to the millions we contribute through earnings taxes.   We donate millions of dollars of product to the troops, to flood, hurricane and fire victims.  And we enjoy a stellar reputation in the community.

What has Starwood done for Maui? Maui's schools might have to chop 5 days off their school year because they can't afford to pay for teachers.  How much could Starwood improve their reputation in Hawaii if they made a sizable donation to the school district? They made a fortune on those villas, and continue to make a fortune in management fees.  Share the wealth, Starwood!  It's the right thing to do AND it certainly couldn't hurt our cause when we go to appeal the assessment.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Maui did come down hard on those people who were renting their condos and were not collecting sales taxes.  And Maui was making it difficult to get new permits for those who were doing it.  This was when the huge increase in property taxes hit about 3 years ago.....

Hono Koa doesn't have nearly as high property taxes as the Westin, but the property is not comparable, by any stretch of the imagination.


----------



## LisaRex

rickandcindy23 said:


> Maui did come down hard on those people who were renting their condos and were not collecting sales taxes.  And Maui was making it difficult to get new permits for those who were doing it.  This was when the huge increase in property taxes hit about 3 years ago.....



But the sales tax would come from the renters, not from the owners, no?  The owner would pay no sales tax if they used the unit themselves or it sat empty, and then they also enjoy subsidized rates on their property taxes at the expense of timeshare owners and hotels.  

On the other hand, TSs are taxed on the "highest and best use" which means, I assume, that we're taxed as if the complex is 100% full and if they can command $800 a night for Christmas week, then they extrapolate that rate for the entire year.  That's where the huge increase came in, I believe.    



Do I have that right?


----------



## Ken555

LisaRex said:


> On the other hand, TSs are taxed on the "highest and best use" which means, I assume, that we're taxed as if the complex is 100% full and if they can command $800 a night for Christmas week, then they extrapolate that rate for the entire year.  That's where the huge increase came in, I believe.
> 
> Do I have that right?



I believe the nasty tax in question is based on sale price which Maui is now basing on the developer sale price of the unit, not the actual price you paid or the rental rate of the unit. If I understand this correctly, this really impacts reseller purchasers since they pay significantly less yet are now being forced to pay taxes as if they spent a fortune on the t/s. The assessed value of the property is inaccurate under this new interpretation, based on the little I understand to date.


----------



## gangofthree

*HUGE MF increase*

 I just got my bill for my Sheraton Vistana Villages 2bd and it went from 978 to 1264  .  I haven't received the bill for the 1 bd PGA and I'm worried! That is over 30%!!!  I am beginning to see that it is much cheaper to just pay upfront wherever I want to go.  I would walk away if I owed anything on them but I "own" them outright. It looks like they are going to punish the ones who stick it out until even we begin to wonder if it's worth it.  Does anyone know if they buy back?


----------



## DanCali

gregb said:


> The board says it is appealing the valuation and the valuation method.  We will see how that comes out.



Ok - Changed my username again (*WoodMFs2Hi -> DanCali). This one will stick for a while - or until *Wood gives me a new excuse...

Personally I think that focusing on the Maui taxes is important but it is a secondary issue in the grand scheme of Starwood. I think the main issue which impacts everyone, including Maui owners, is the audacity Starwood had over the years to keep raising MFs to unsustainable levels at all resorts. Even increases of 6%-8% a year are unrealistic and unsustainable over time because MFs would double every 10 years, and this is a "lifetime investment". Not many things double every 5-10 years (certainly not maintenance/labor costs) and this is pure corporate greed that is killing us. As much as we enjoy going to these places and may not care about the fact our equity is becoming worthless, I assume that nobody wants their children to inherit a worthless "asset" which is actually a liability that will haunt them. 

Many Starwood resorts even averaged increases of more than 10% a year. MFs on Maui were up 60% over 5 years before the tax issue even came up a few weeks ago. It is this trend that has caused the beautiful WKORV/N units to be worth 80% less than what they were 3-4 years ago on the resale market. *Solving the Maui tax issue won't cure this fatal disease - it will only weaken the pain temporarily.*

Owners might be better served at this point selling these as condos for $1M-$2M each, splitting into 52 and walking away with $20K-$40K each... If it were possible, I'd take that in heartbeat and buy a Marriott unit (resale) next door.


----------



## DanCali

gangofthree said:


> I just got my bill for my Sheraton Vistana Villages 2bd and it went from 978 to 1264  .  I haven't received the bill for the 1 bd PGA and I'm worried! That is over 30%!!!  I am beginning to see that it is much cheaper to just pay upfront wherever I want to go.  I would walk away if I owed anything on them but I "own" them outright. It looks like they are going to punish the ones who stick it out until even we begin to wonder if it's worth it.  Does anyone know if they buy back?



They don't buy back- at least not publicly.

If you own SVV Bella or Key West you can still sell it on the resale market. Unlike other resorts where owners can't even sell their units, SVV Bella and Key West still have some value because of the StarOptions. Depending on your unit and season, you can probably net around $1K-$6K.


----------



## gregb

LisaRex said:


> On the other hand, TSs are taxed on the "highest and best use" which means, I assume, that we're taxed as if the complex is 100% full and if they can command $800 a night for Christmas week, then they extrapolate that rate for the entire year.  That's where the huge increase came in, I believe.
> 
> Do I have that right?



Highest and Best use does not mean that they think the units will be full all the time.  What is means is that a piece of property should be taxed at the highest tax rate that it could be used for.  So if your property is in a resort district, it gets taxed as the resort property rate, not the residential rate.  

When I looked at the Maui county tax rules yesterday, I discovered some other interesting items.  If you are a resident of Maui, you can claim a $300,000 (that's right $300K) homeowners exemption on your principle place of residence.  And if that happens to be a unit in a condo, your condo gets reclassified to the lower homeowner rate.  So with the lowest rate ($2 / $1000 valuation) and the homeowners exemption, it seems that residents are paying for almost nothing.  It might be interesting to see the actual amounts the county collects from each property class.  Given what I see in the regulations, I expect that the majority of the collections come from hotels, timeshares and commercial property.

Greg

Edit:  I just verified that in California, the land of high housing costs, my homeowners exemption is a measly $7,000.  Nowhere near the $300,000 that Maui residents get.


----------



## DisneyDerek

*Not like 3 star elite status*



DeniseM said:


> Hi Derek - Starwood handpicks the Board of Directors, so you will most likely never get a ballot to approve anything.  Welcome to TUG!  There are lots of us who agree with you!



Thanks Denise for the clarification. Given the MFs hikes, I'm regretting 3 star elite status for my wife & me and encouraging my in-laws to buy Westin as well.  I had been a solid SVN fan before, now I'm advising all of my friends to rent rather than own.

Oh yeah, we couldn't even get into our property at Mission Hills this summer and had to stay at the hotel side while folks on Expedia stayed at the Villas. Talk about injustice. Can't get in but get stuck with the fee hikes. What gives?


----------



## Ken555

DisneyDerek said:


> Oh yeah, we couldn't even get into our property at Mission Hills this summer and had to stay at the hotel side while folks on Expedia stayed at the Villas. Talk about injustice. Can't get in but get stuck with the fee hikes. What gives?



Err... not to change the topic further, but this type of post deserves a response. Summer weeks at WMH are the most available, as compared to any other time of year. If you don't reserve in advance, however, you may not get the week you want. When did you first call to make your reservation? 12 months out? 8 months out? or 3 months out? It makes a big difference...

As a point of comparison, II had (as they tend to have every year) many, many units at WMH available for getaway weeks during the summer for as little as $250 or so per week. They also have plenty of availability at the three Marriott timeshares in the Palm Springs area as well.


----------



## RLOGO

*SVV Maintenance Fees*

SVV Bella section 2BR LO

Maintenance Fees 	$1321.01
Tax                     $ 212.99
Membership Fee  	$ 109.00
ARDA ROC PAC	$    5.00
Subtotal		$1648.00
TOTAL                 $  OUCH


----------



## Joshadelic

RLOGO said:


> SVV Bella section 2BR LO
> 
> Maintenance Fees 	$1321.01
> Tax                     $ 212.99
> Membership Fee  	$ 109.00
> ARDA ROC PAC	$    5.00
> Subtotal		$1648.00
> TOTAL                 $  OUCH



Yeah...that's what I thought.  I own the same type unit.  Last year it was $1300.71.  That's a 26.7% increase!


----------



## BluEyezNSC

*Sheraton Steamboat Springs 2010*

Sheraton Steamboat Springs Villas EOY(odd) dedicated 2BR 

2010 Maintenance Fee(s)    $ 669.37  
Tax - If Applicable    $ 45.56  
Current Year Charges    $ 714.93  

2009 was as follows:
Maintenance Fee(s) $ 662.89 
Tax - If Applicable $ 63.53 
Current Year Charges $ 726.42 

As you can see, there was a very tiny increase in maintanence fees from 2009, but also a decrease in real estate taxes, so I am actually out of pocket less than last year.

I'm not sure why fees didn't go up (maybe because they are still actively selling?) but I am very grateful because (as previously mentioned) the fees for SBP that I bought resale this year went up more than 20%. OUCH!


----------



## RLOGO

Joshadelic said:


> Yeah...that's what I thought.  I own the same type unit.  Last year it was $1300.71.  That's a 26.7% increase!



Although I have had many great exchanges through SVN I just can’t see paying $1650 in fees for Florida.  No sign that the increase is temporary as Starwood’s projected fees for next year are the same.


----------



## K2Quick

RLOGO said:


> SVV Bella section 2BR LO
> 
> Maintenance Fees 	$1321.01
> Tax                     $ 212.99
> Membership Fee  	$ 109.00
> ARDA ROC PAC	$    5.00
> Subtotal		$1648.00
> TOTAL                 $  OUCH



Ouch!  Isn't that what WKORV was not too long ago?


----------



## RLOGO

K2Quick said:


> Ouch!  Isn't that what WKORV was not too long ago?



There is no logic to this.  Florida vs. Maui are at opposite ends when it comes to the cost of living.


----------



## LisaRex

RLOGO said:


> SVV Bella section 2BR LO
> 
> Maintenance Fees 	$1321.01
> Tax                     $ 212.99
> Membership Fee  	$ 109.00
> ARDA ROC PAC	$    5.00
> Subtotal		$1648.00
> TOTAL                 $  OUCH



Wow.  Just wow.  Does that include a special assessment???


----------



## RLOGO

LisaRex said:


> Wow.  Just wow.  Does that include a special assessment???



There is no special assessment listed in my statement. 

The exact statement reads like this:

""Operating Assessment $1146.31
Replacement Reserve   $174.70
Estimated Real estate Tax $ 212.99
Membership Fee $ 109.00
ARDA ROC PAC $ 5.00
Subtotal $1648.00 (Payable in U.S. Dollars only)
TOTAL $ ha ha""


It's just outrageous.


----------



## LisaRex

RLOGO said:


> It's just outrageous.



You say "ha ha" but I know from personal experience that it isn't the least bit funny.  

SVO is a sinking ship, people.  The handwriting is on the wall.  They are soaking whatever they can out of us suckers, er, owners before it either goes belly up or is sold.  They must know that these fees are going to force more people to just throw up their hands and walk away.  And if they don't, then they are stupid in addition to being crooks.


----------



## RLOGO

LisaRex said:


> You say "ha ha" but I know from personal experience that it isn't the least bit funny.
> 
> SVO is a sinking ship, people.  The handwriting is on the wall.  They are soaking whatever they can out of us suckers, er, owners before it either goes belly up or is sold.  They must know that these fees are going to force more people to just throw up their hands and walk away.  And if they don't, then they are stupid in addition to being crooks.



I was just pointing out how Starwood has pulled a horrible joke on us.  I am not happy with this.   I took a 20% cut in pay last year. An increase like this it’s just another hit.


----------



## pharmgirl

I would be happy if SVO was bought out by Marriott


----------



## Ken555

pharmgirl said:


> I would be happy if SVO was bought out by Marriott



Or Hyatt. Or Hilton. Or... practically anyone!


----------



## tomandrobin

Ken555 said:


> Or Hyatt. Or Hilton. Or... practically anyone!



Be careful of what you wish for!


----------



## thinze3

RLOGO said:


> There is no special assessment listed in my statement.
> 
> The exact statement reads like this:
> 
> ""Operating Assessment $1146.31   $1164.14
> Replacement Reserve   $174.70   $143.46
> Estimated Real estate Tax $ 212.99  $166.06
> Membership Fee $ 109.00  N/A
> ARDA ROC PAC $ 5.00  N/A
> *Subtotal $1648.00 *(Payable in U.S. Dollars only)
> TOTAL $ ha ha""
> 
> 
> It's just outrageous.




OMG. That is more than Marriott Waiohai in Hawaii (see above)- even after backing out the membership fee. Something about these numbers smells fishy, very fishy.


----------



## LisaRex

thinze3 said:


> OMG. That is more than Marriott Waiohai in Hawaii (see above)- even after backing out the membership fee. Something about these numbers smells fishy, very fishy.



Terry, meet the big, rotten, stinking fish


----------



## Ken555

tomandrobin said:


> Be careful of what you wish for!



Well, yeah. I don't think I really need to qualify my hopes of a theoretical new management company. Obviously, they need to be better than what we've got now.


----------



## RLOGO

This ebay auction for a SVV 2BR LO plat has no bids to date.

http://cgi.ebay.com/95K-STAROPTIONS...dZViewItemQQptZTimeshares?hash=item19b7c58e8b

It lists the maintenance fees correctly at $1643


----------



## thinze3

RLOGO said:


> This ebay auction for a SVV 2BR LO plat has no bids to date.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/95K-STAROPTIONS...dZViewItemQQptZTimeshares?hash=item19b7c58e8b
> 
> It lists the maintenance fees correctly at $1643



That is because with those MF's these units are virtually worthless now. Starwood has basically destroyed tens of millions of dollars (or more) of their timeshare owners' equity. IMHO this is still the beginning as some people are still buying because they know what last year's resale prices were for some of these timeshares, and they now think they are getting a bargain.

Prices don't go to zero instantaneously. Though you may sometimes see a freefall, in general, prices work their way down. They won't completely settle at their bottoms until after a few months have passed and all of this (policy changes and MF's) sinks in.

Those resorts that have controlled their fees and offer good value, like SDO, may actually come bouncing back a bit.


----------



## DanCali

thinze3 said:


> That is because with those MF's these units are virtually worthless now. Starwood has basically destroyed tens of millions of dollars (or more) of their timeshare owners' equity. IMHO this is still the beginning as some people are still buying because they know what last year's resale prices were for some of these timeshares, and they now think they are getting a bargain.
> 
> Prices don't go to zero instantaneously. Though you may sometimes see a freefall, in general, prices work their way down. They won't completely settle at their bottoms until after a few months have passed and all of this (policy changes and MF's) sinks in.
> 
> Those resorts that have controlled their fees and offer good value, like SDO, may actually come bouncing back a bit.



I think "worthless" may be a rush to judgment here. A 67K SO unit used to sell for $1000-$1500 and is still in that range (although listed with old fees)

IMO the effect of the fees goes both ways with these type of units. Obviously the higher fees make the units less valuable on one hand, but on the other hand the SOs still give you the option to exchange to places with $2500+ MFs, like WKORV, HRA, and WSJ (however unikely the exchanges to the latter two). The fact that MFs at the "exotic" places went up by a lot, makes SVV and WKV more valuable (all other things equal). The former effect is likely to outweigh the latter but who knows...? I think the jury is still out until we have more evidence and this auction is probably not representative.

The unit in question is a 95K SO unit which was selling until recently on eBay for $5600-$6200. I think this particular one is mislisted because it doesn't have the words "Sheraton" or "Vistana" in the title and won't show up in a related search. Buying for $4000 could yet prove to be a "steal" (meaning other units may still sell for significantly more).

RLOGO - how did you find this one?


----------



## RLOGO

DanCali said:


> RLGO - how did you find this one?



I did an eBay search for "DISNEY" on timeshares for sale.

Although this auction is not over yet, I paid triple this a few years ago.
I do agree with you that the exchanges into SVN are a benefit even though it is almost always challenging to get a reservation. I have had good exchanges the past few years, otherwise I would consider this a terrible timeshare to own because of these exorbitant maintenance fees.


----------



## thinze3

DanCali said:


> A 67K SO unit used to sell for $1000-$1500 and is still in that range (*although listed with old fees*)



Read what I said above. This (policy changes and MF's) hasn't yet sunk in to all buyers. Like you, they are comparing *"used to"*. This unit too will be worthless to the buyer soon enough.

Back to the other eBay auction. Who will pay $1650 MF's to get to get 95K SO's? Is there any single place that can be reserved using 95K SO's that cannot be rented for $1650? Remember before you answer that Starwood controls the inventory now, not II, so the most premium weeks are no longer available.


----------



## DanCali

thinze3 said:


> Read what I said above. This (policy changes and MF's) hasn't yet sunk in to all buyers. Like you, they are comparing *"used to"*. This unit too will be worthless to the buyer soon enough.
> 
> Back to the other eBay auction. Who will pay $1650 MF's to get to get 95K SO's? Is there any single place that can be reserved using 95K SO's that cannot be rented for $1650? Remember before you answer that Starwood controls the inventory now, not II, so the most premium weeks are no longer available.



thinze - I assume you agree that there is a problem with this particular  listing when it comes to finding it with a typical search for Vistana Villages?

You certainly don't want to buy SVV anymore just to go there.

If one wanted to exchange via II they would buy SVR. Buying this makes sense only for SVN exchanges. 95K SOs will get you 8 days in a 1BR in Hawaii or 10 days in a studio, same amount of days for a Colorado ski week, a summer week in a 2BR at HRA or WSJ, or 2 summer weeks in smaller units at HRA or WSJ. If you are willing to go in the "hurricane season" you can get more even more time at HRA (2.5 weeks in a 1BR) and the exchange is probably easier.

The Hawaii exchanges can accomplished relatively easily, especially off season, and some of these other exchanges are very difficult exchanges, but not impossible... If one were persistent and lucky enough, they would still get good value from the SOs, assuming the resort stays afloat and MFs stabilize...  (big if)


----------



## RLOGO

DanCali said:


> 95K SOs will get you 8 days in a 1BR in Hawaii or 10 days in a studio, same amount of days for a Colorado ski week, a summer week in a 2BR at HRA or WSJ, or 2 summer weeks in smaller units at HRA or WSJ. If you are willing to go in the "hurricane season" you can get more even more time at HRA (2.5 weeks in a 1BR)



My last 3 exchanges were:

2007 Westin St. John 1BR premimum- President's Week (1 week)
2008 WKORVN 1BR premimum- Spring Break (8 nights)
2009 Harboside 1BR premimum- President's Week (1 week)


----------



## Stefa

*Grest trades*



RLOGO said:


> My last 3 exchanges were:
> 
> 2007 Westin St. John 1BR premimum- President's Week (1 week)
> 2008 WKORVN 1BR premimum- Spring Break (8 nights)
> 2009 Harboside 1BR premimum- President's Week (1 week)



These were great trades.  Persistence does pay off.  But, due to space limitations, it isn't possible for everyone to go to HRA or WSJ.   Most would-be exchangers will still be shut out.  

These SVN units still have value.  There's no debating that.  The question is do they have enough value to enough owners to keep the resort viable.  I'm not so sure about that.


----------



## thinze3

RLOGO said:


> My last 3 exchanges were:
> 
> 2007 Westin St. John 1BR premimum- President's Week (1 week)
> 2008 WKORVN 1BR premimum- Spring Break (8 nights)
> 2009 Harboside 1BR premimum- President's Week (1 week)



Although these are pre Starwood unwritten policy changes -
If Starwood doesn't decide to keep and rent those same premium units in the future, then obviously there is still some value for 95K SO's - using $1650 rental as a baseline.


----------



## DanCali

thinze3 said:


> That is because with those MF's these units are virtually worthless now.



Terry - by the way, other than the above statement, I completely agree with everything else you said (and have voiced similar sentiment). In fact, Starwood destroyed hundreds of millions of dollars in owner's equity by irresponsibe MF increases - and I'm not even sure that it wasn't on purpose.

If someone is looking to buy 95K SOs at SVV, $4000 like in this particular auction may yet prove to be a "good deal" (relative to market values). I think it has no bidders because it's off the radar screen. I try to keep up with the mandatory resorts on eBay and this one didn't show up in my searches...



thinze3 said:


> Starwood has basically destroyed tens of millions of dollars (or more) of their timeshare owners' equity. IMHO this is still the beginning as some people are still buying because they know what last year's resale prices were for some of these timeshares, and they now think they are getting a bargain.
> 
> Prices don't go to zero instantaneously. Though you may sometimes see a freefall, in general, prices work their way down. They won't completely settle at their bottoms until after a few months have passed and all of this (policy changes and MF's) sinks in.
> 
> Those resorts that have controlled their fees and offer good value, like SDO, may actually come bouncing back a bit.


----------



## Ken555

DanCali said:


> RLOGO - how did you find this one?



FWIW, I've been watching this seller's eBay auctions for a while. He doesn't include the standard words you'd expect, so I search for "staroptions" to find them. Take a look at the completed auctions for this term... there was a WKV Premium 1-bed just in the last few weeks which sold for less than $6k (81k SOs, ~$700MF, and still among the best bang for the buck in SVN IMO).


----------



## RLOGO

"A terrible market or a terrible economy is your friend," 

Warren Buffett


----------



## LisaRex

Starwood would be remiss to not fix the SVN system in the near future to address the disparity in SOs and MFs within the system, which currently have no relationship to demand.  Here's an example of how they could begin to fix it: 

Increase the SOs in Hawaii during high season (summer and whale season) for a 2 bdrm to 196k.  For low season a 2 bdrm would remain 148.1k, thus encouraging more exchangers to look at low season.  It would also make it more attractive to own there. 

People exchanging out would still only get 148.1 SOs.


----------



## Fredm

RLOGO said:


> "A terrible market or a terrible economy is your friend,"
> 
> Warren Buffett



Was watching a live interview from Columbia Business School with Warren Buffet and Bill Gates.

Buffet made an interesting observation concerning the current economy.
In answering his own question, he asked if anyone knew what the best performing year for the post 1942  stock market was? His answer was 1955. Up 50%. We were in deep recession, and unemployment did not peak until November 1955.
That was the year he starting seriously buying.

Buffet likes current prospects so much he just invested 38 Billion? to buy Burlington Northern.


----------



## DavidnRobin

Ken555 said:


> FWIW, I've been watching this seller's eBay auctions for a while. He doesn't include the standard words you'd expect, so I search for "staroptions" to find them. Take a look at the completed auctions for this term... there was a WKV Premium 1-bed just in the last few weeks which sold for less than $6k (81k SOs, ~$700MF, and still among the best bang for the buck in SVN IMO).



Damn - I should expand my search - that is a great value - but is due to a poor auction description which results in a very low price - and is not necessarily indicative of the real price for this WKV VOI


----------



## Ken555

DavidnRobin said:


> Damn - I should expand my search - that is a great value - but is due to a poor auction description which results in a very low price - and is not necessarily indicative of the real price for this WKV VOI



Yup. My brother wants one, and I told him to bid up to $8k or so, but he stopped at $5.5k... /sigh


----------



## RLOGO

Fredm said:


> Was watching a live interview from Columbia Business School with Warren Buffet and Bill Gates.
> 
> Buffet made an interesting observation concerning the current economy.
> In answering his own question, he asked if anyone knew what the best performing year for the post 1942  stock market was? His answer was 1955. Up 50%. We were in deep recession, and unemployment did not peak until November 1955.
> That was the year he starting seriously buying.
> 
> Buffet likes current prospects so much he just invested 38 Billion? to buy Burlington Northern.



I am not saying one should buy a timeshare as an investment but if you are in the market to buy one for vacationing this is would not be a bad time.......of course, if these maintenance fees were reasonable then it would be a great time to buy.


----------



## Ken555

LisaRex said:


> Starwood would be remiss to not fix the SVN system in the near future to address the disparity in SOs and MFs within the system, which currently have no relationship to demand.  Here's an example of how they could begin to fix it:
> 
> Increase the SOs in Hawaii during high season (summer and whale season) for a 2 bdrm to 196k.  For low season a 2 bdrm would remain 148.1k, thus encouraging more exchangers to look at low season.  It would also make it more attractive to own there.
> 
> People exchanging out would still only get 148.1 SOs.



You have *GOT *to be kidding. I'm sorry, but this is completely unrealistic. 148.1 is still the magic number and which the entire system is designed around. And given that WKORV, for instance, has more vacancies now with WKORV-N, cutting out the majority of other SVN owners from reserving a 2-bed makes no sense to me.

On the other hand, lowering the SO for a (currently non-existent) low season in Hawaii might work. Remember that you could go either way to adjust the system - lowering the SOs at some resorts will do good, too. 

This post, and a few others in the last week, remind me the WLR SO situation a few years ago. Back then, they started with 95k as the 2-bed plat value and then changed it to 148k when sales were extremely soft. 

In general, I agree that the SVN system as it currently exists probably won't be able to sustain itself without new properties entering the program every few years. There's an inherent imbalance which will need to be corrected one day.


----------



## thinze3

From what I have read, Starwood claims "delinquincies" have forced this sudden sharp rise in MF's. But if that were the case, why did it mostly happen at select properties only? Why have we not heard this same story with other companies?

Furthermore, has Starwood thought out the consequences of these large increases - especially the drop in resale value? What if people start abondoning their properties? Things will only escalate.


----------



## gregb

LisaRex said:


> Starwood would be remiss to not fix the SVN system in the near future to address the disparity in SOs and MFs within the system, which currently have no relationship to demand.  Here's an example of how they could begin to fix it:
> 
> Increase the SOs in Hawaii during high season (summer and whale season) for a 2 bdrm to 196k.  For low season a 2 bdrm would remain 148.1k, thus encouraging more exchangers to look at low season.  It would also make it more attractive to own there.
> 
> People exchanging out would still only get 148.1 SOs.



Not sure how *wood could establish a "season" in Hawaii since all the units at WKORV & WKORVN have been sold as 52 week float.  They cannot, after the fact, assign the units sold as 52 week float to a shorter season.  Imagine the howls by someone being assigned to "low season".  Besides, if you look at the II demand index for Hawaii, it is fairly even demand throughout the year.

Furthermore, *wood has to make sure they do not sell more StarOptions at a resort than exist at that resort.  They also must, over time, ensure that the total number of StarOptions credited to owners each year is less than or equal to the total number of StarOptions available throughout the system.  If this is not the case, some owners will be denied access to their units.

Greg


----------



## Troopers

thinze3 said:


> From what I have read, Starwood claims "delinquincies" have forced this sudden sharp rise in MF's. But if that were the case, why did it mostly happen at select properties only? Why have we not heard this same story with other companies?
> 
> Furthermore, has Starwood thought out the consequences of these large increases - especially the drop in resale value? What if people start abondoning their properties? Things will only escalate.



I believe delinquencies have occurred all properties (and across all systems).  Given our difficult economy, what’s more peculiar…the fact that delinquencies are common in the Starwood system or that we haven’t heard from other systems?  Starwood isn’t the lone wolf in experiencing significant delinquencies.  If this is true, I’m struggling to understand how other systems are (or are not) dealing with it? 

Ignoring the crappy economy, people will start abandoning their properties when the MF is greater than comparable lodging costs.


----------



## DanCali

Ken555 said:


> FWIW, I've been watching this seller's eBay auctions for a while. He doesn't include the standard words you'd expect, so I search for "staroptions" to find them. Take a look at the completed auctions for this term... there was a WKV Premium 1-bed just in the last few weeks which sold for less than $6k (81k SOs, ~$700MF, and still among the best bang for the buck in SVN IMO).



I haven't seen many WKV Platinums on eBay (1 or 2 BR) to even compare if that's a good price, but I would probably prefer that over a 2BR SVV Bella, even before the MF hike.

That said, note that until the recent MF hike a 2BR Bella cost about $3500 and had MFs of $1000. This 1BR WKV cost about $6000 (supposedly a very good price) with MFs of $700. So for a $300 annual savings in MFs relative to SVV you are paying $2500 upfront (or 8 years of MFs savings) which may or may not be recouped upon a resale down the road. Is that a "good deal"? Probably not for everyone. Ken, hindsight is 20/20 but I think your brother was ok to avoid a bidding war at the time...

Turns out that SVV Bella had a huge increase in MFs so now WKV is undobtedly a much better deal if you are buying for StarOptions, but until recently I would not necessarily have rushed to pay the premium, especially if the "true" cost for the 1BR WKV was more than double of SVV.

The WKV 2BR Platinum is a different story, because you can't buy that amount of SOs in Orlando...


----------



## LisaRex

thinze3 said:


> From what I have read, Starwood claims "delinquincies" have forced this sudden sharp rise in MF's. But if that were the case, why did it mostly happen at select properties only? Why have we not heard this same story with other companies?



Good question.  My only good guess is that they are trying to squeeze every last dime they can out of us owners because they are in trouble and need immediate relief. 

The big money is made selling new VOIs.  The WKORV-N-N development is the only thing in their pipeline, and it's stalled.  They've already bundled their loans and sold them off.  What's left? Maintenance and management.  Hence the large increases and the claims of delinquencies, which of course can neither be verified or confirmed by the owners because we are left in the dark.

I can't even get Starwood to respond to my question about the next WKORV-N board meeting.  When I asked the rep when elections were to take place, she said one was to happen in the December meeting. Of course, we've gotten no notice about the December meeting.  We'll probably get it in our mailboxes two weeks after the fact.


----------



## DanCali

thinze3 said:


> From what I have read, Starwood claims "delinquincies" have forced this sudden sharp rise in MF's. But if that were the case, why did it mostly happen at select properties only? Why have we not heard this same story with other companies?
> 
> Furthermore, has Starwood thought out the consequences of these large increases - especially the drop in resale value? What if people start abondoning their properties? Things will only escalate.



What puzzles me is that if SVV has so many alleged delinquencies, why are people not selling the units to get rid of the "liability"? The mandatory units at SVV have a resale value that would cover MFs and they are old enough that most people probably don't have mortgages anymore. Yet there are over 60 units listed for sale from WKORV/N on RedWeek and only 11 from SVV. I'm also pretty sure the Bella and Key West sections (mandatory) have a lot more units than WKORV/N. 

Anyone have a good answer to this "puzzle"?


----------



## Fredm

DanCali said:


> What puzzles me is that if SVV has so many alleged delinquencies, why are people not selling the units to get rid of the "liability"? The mandatory units at SVV have a resale value that would cover MFs and they are old enough that most people probably don't have mortgages anymore. Yet there are over 60 units listed for sale from WKORV/N on RedWeek and only 11 from SVV. I'm also pretty sure the Bella and Key West sections (mandatory) have a lot more units than WKORV/N.
> 
> Anyone have a good answer to this "puzzle"?



Maintenance fees.


----------



## DanCali

Fredm said:


> Maintenance fees.



True, Orlando MFs are much lower than Hawaii, but if 20% (not sure what the number is, but MFs were up 25%-30%) of the Orlando resort is defaulting on MFs I would have expected many of those units to go on sale. 

Surely people would prefer to get $3000-$4000 and pay off the delinquent MFs, avoid ruining their credit history, and be done with MF payments forever... At least that's what I would have done if I decided I didn't see the value anymore, especially if the resale value was enough to cover my debt.

I can't make the same argument for SBP, because resale value will not cover MFs, but a delinquent owner at SVV (mandatory phase) has a relatively easy way out - sell the unit!


----------



## Ken555

DanCali said:


> I haven't seen many WKV Platinums on eBay (1 or 2 BR) to even compare if that's a good price, but I would probably prefer that over a 2BR SVV Bella, even before the MF hike.



I believe it's an excellent price.



> That said, note that until the recent MF hike a 2BR Bella cost about $3500 and had MFs of $1000. This 1BR WKV cost about $6000 (supposedly a very good price) with MFs of $700. So for a $300 annual savings in MFs relative to SVV you are paying $2500 upfront (or 8 years of MFs savings) which may or may not be recouped upon a resale down the road. Is that a "good deal"? Probably not for everyone. Ken, hindsight is 20/20 but I think your brother was ok to avoid a bidding war at the time...



Well, I hope so. The 1-bed premium Platinum's are very rare to see on eBay. Buying in Orlando is an option, but Kierland is better for my brother since he lives in driving range so if he prefers his family could make it there easily. And I think the savings actually does matter - I've only had my ownership for four years and I'm sure my brother would want to keep whatever he buys for at least 10 or 15 years, if not longer.



> Turns out that SVV Bella had a huge increase in MFs so now WKV is undobtedly a much better deal if you are buying for StarOptions, but until recently I would not necessarily have rushed to pay the premium, especially if the "true" cost for the 1BR WKV was more than double of SVV.



Yup. From the little I know about WKR, it's my belief that costs can be controlled fairly easily at that resort (as compared with some of the others in the program). There is also a big difference in relative demand between Scottsdale vs Orlando, so if SVN folds (worst case) and the resorts are independent, I think Kierland will trade much better than Orlando. Now that the MFs are not a big difference, this makes Kierland even more valuable, in my opinion.



> The WKV 2BR Platinum is a different story, because you can't buy that amount of SOs in Orlando...



Well, starting off with a 1-bed premium Platinum week is half-way toward that 2-bed. It's possible to find a 1-bed (small; ie. "deluxe") Plat (though they seem even rarer than the premiums) and then you'd have 148k. This is yet another reason why I think this week sold at well below market value. This is just a great time to buy, not only because of the economy but also due to the time of year with MFs due soon.


----------



## Fredm

DanCali said:


> True, Orlando MFs are much lower than Hawaii, but if 20% (not sure what the number is, but MFs were up 25%-30%) of the Orlando resort is defaulting on MFs I would have expected many of those units to go on sale.
> 
> Surely people would prefer to get $3000-$4000 and pay off the delinquent MFs, avoid ruining their credit history, and be done with MF payments forever... At least that's what I would have done if I decided I didn't see the value anymore, especially if the resale value was enough to cover my debt.
> 
> I can't make the same argument for SBP, because resale value will not cover MFs, but a delinquent owner at SVV (mandatory phase) has a relatively easy way out - sell the unit!



More owners are probably upside down.


----------



## Fredm

RLOGO said:


> I am not saying one should buy a timeshare as an investment but if you are in the market to buy one for vacationing this is would not be a bad time.......of course, if these maintenance fees were reasonable then it would be a great time to buy.



Understood.

Just echoing the wisdom in the quote.


----------



## DeniseM

I just updated the master list in post #1, however, I'm missing some info. from some posts - especially for SVV and SBP.

It would help me out if you can include the following:

Resort name
Resort Phase
Unit size
Lock-off or dedicated 2 bdm.
EY or EOY

Please do not include the ARDA fee, SVN fee, or special assessment, if you are going to post a total, or subtotal it without those figures.


----------



## jeff01

2010 Maintenance Fees (not including SVN & ARDA fees)

Sheraton Vistana Villages
Key West Phase
Dedicated 2 Bd Rm - EY
$1,062.73

Sheraton Broadway Plantation
Palmetto Phase
Dedicated 2 Bd Rm - EOY
$354.23


----------



## Troopers

RLOGO said:


> My last 3 exchanges were:
> 
> 2007 Westin St. John 1BR premimum- President's Week (1 week)
> 2008 WKORVN 1BR premimum- Spring Break (8 nights)
> 2009 Harboside 1BR premimum- President's Week (1 week)



Nice!

If you don't mind, can you report your SVN exchange success in this thread?  I think the thread is useful.  Thanks!


----------



## RLOGO

Troopers said:


> Nice!
> 
> If you don't mind, can you report your SVN exchange success in this thread?  I think the thread is useful.  Thanks!



Done........


----------



## Troopers

RLOGO said:


> Done........



Many thanks!


----------



## Moniks

*Vistana Fountains Condominium*

Hi:

I am new here.  We own 2 weeks at [at a Starwood timeshare]

We have owned these for over 18 years, and every year the maintenance fees have just kept rising !   We bought them outright, so have no mortgage.

We are at the point where we want to get rid of these 2 weeks.  We have used RCI to bank the weeks and have used the weeks around the world, but there too, in addition to the yearly fees, RCI charges booking fees.

I have repeatedly called Vistana Realty number, but have yet to speak to an agent.       Call the purchase # and someone will pick up right away!   I have left numerous voice mails, as I want to check if they will do a re-sale for me of the 2 weeks.

Could someone guide me on how I can sell the 2 weeks we own.

thanks,

..Moniks


----------



## tomandrobin

Moniks said:


> Hi:
> 
> I am new here.  We own 2 weeks at Vistana Fountains - wk 20 & wk 32.
> 
> We have owned these for over 18 years, and every year the maintenance fees have just kept rising !   We bought them outright, so have no mortgage.
> 
> We are at the point where we want to get rid of these 2 weeks.  We have used RCI to bank the weeks and have used the weeks around the world, but there too, in addition to the yearly fees, RCI charges booking fees.
> 
> I have repeatedly called Vistana Realty number, but have yet to speak to an agent.       Call the purchase # and someone will pick up right away!   I have left numerous voice mails, as I want to check if they will do a re-sale for me of the 2 weeks.
> 
> Could someone guide me on how I can sell the 2 weeks we own.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> ..Moniks



Welcome to the Starwood forum!  

Denise will probably edit your thread soon to take out your ownership information. 

If you truly want to get rid of the weeks, list them on ebay for $1 and see what you can get. Resale of Vistana Weeks are not that high, so I would not expect too much of a return.

Tom


----------



## DeniseM

Hi Moniks and welcome to TUG!   - Right now, because of the economy, the resale market is flooded with timeshares that people just want to dump.  Right now there are over 200 timeshares on ebay for under $100.  In fact, I recently picked up a Vistana Falls week for free.  

So right now is the worst time possible to try and sell your timeshare - in this economy you would have to just give it away.  If you are OK with that, then list it on some of the cheap and free resale websites for $1 and throw in the transfer cost for free.  You can get a basic professional transfer for about $100.

I personally use these cheap or free websites to post my Ads:

The free TUG Classifieds (click on Marketplace in the red bar at the top of the page.)

www.craigslist.org (free)

www.redweek.com
* Membership $14.99 for 12 Months
* Timeshare Rental Postings - $19.99/ea for 6 Months - $49.99/ea for 12 Months

www.myresortnetwork.com
$19.95 posting fee ($24.95 for a float week ad)

There is also a list of resale websites at the top of the Buying, Selling, Renting  board that you can take a look at.

Good luck!


----------



## tlpnet

*Westin Mission Hills*

Just got my paper MF invoice for 2010 MF's.

WMH 2BR LO EY - $1,484.76
2009 MF - $1,338.59
Increase - $146.17 - 10.9%

This does not included property taxes which are billed separately by California. I never thought I would be happy to see ONLY 10.9%, but given the increases on my other weeks, this isn't that bad.

-tim


----------



## tlpnet

*Westin St. John*



tlpnet said:


> Denise,
> 
> I like that you're putting all of the resorts at the top like you did, but IMHO WSJ should not be listed there yet. Those numbers came from the PROPOSED budget which was included with the notice of the Board meeting. Not to say that they won't be rubber stamped, but until billed, don't think you should list them. I have those budgets on several other resorts if you decide that MF's should be posted from proposed budgets.
> 
> -tim


 
OK Denise - they were rubber stamped  - now posted on MSC so you can remove "proposed".

WSJ 3BR Pool Villa EY - $3,439.31 ($480.29 - 16.2% increase)
WSJ 3BR Pool Villa EOY - $1,719.66 ($240.15 - 16.2% increase)

This does not include property taxes still to be assessed by USVI (a whole other topic...).  These numbers DO include the 3 year additional assessment for the remodel/roofs.

Assuming the rest of the Virgin Grand (Hillside) units were rubber stamped, the fees (EY) are:

Terrace Suite - $1,719.53
Townhouse Suite - $2,992.79
2BR Townhouse - $2,866.05
2BR Premium - $3,439.07
3BR Premium - $3.439.31

-tim


----------



## DeniseM

Tim - thanks!

Can you please list the totals and assessments separately?

In other words, the total MF (without ARDA or SVN fee) + assessment amount.


----------



## tlpnet

DeniseM said:


> Tim - thanks!
> 
> Can you please list the totals and assessments separately?
> 
> In other words, the total MF (without ARDA or SVN fee) + assessment amount.


 
Denise,

WSJ's a little different from the other resorts with SA's because they are not listed that way on either the invoices or on MSC. This is one of the issues that WSJ owners have because we don't really know the amount of the SA each year. We received a letter last year stating that it would increase owner's MF's for 2009, 2010, and 2011 by an average of $625 per week (no breakdown by unit type). Therefore, there is no breakdown to post, just a note that it is included.

David - please let us know if I'm wrong.

-tim


----------



## jcbuncc

*Westin Ka`anapali Ocean Resort Villas North*



tlpnet said:


> [I want to start a comprehensive list of all resorts at the top of this thread and the only way to keep it at the top is to put it in your post - hope you don't mind! Thanks for starting the thread! DeniseM ]
> 
> *2010 Maintenance fees without ARDA or SVN fee*
> 
> 
> Lakeside Terrace (Silver 2 bdm.) - $526.73
> Lakeside Terrace (Plat 2 bdm.) - $894.61
> 
> Sheraton Broadway Plantation (1 bdm. Dlx) - $391.15
> Sheraton Broadway Plantation (1 bdm.) - $500.48
> Sheraton Broadway Plantation (Premium 1 bdm.) - $712.03
> Sheraton Broadway Plantation (2 bdm.) - $881.62
> Sheraton Broadway Plantation, Palmetto (2 bdm. L/O) - $967.40
> Sheraton Broadway Plantation, Palmetto (Dedicated 2 bdm. EOY) - $354.23
> Sheraton Broadway Plantation (2 bdm. L/O) - $1103.18
> 
> 
> Sheraton Desert Oasis (EOY Lg. 1 bdm) - $325.62
> Sheraton Desert Oasis (Sm. 1 bdm.) - $518.63
> Sheraton Desert Oasis (Lg. 1 bdm.) - $ 611.25
> Sheraton Desert Oasis (2 bdm.) - $889.08
> 
> Sheraton Steamboat Springs (EOY 2 bdm.) - $714.93
> 
> Sheraton Mountain Vista (Small 1 bdm.) - $651.11
> Sheraton Mountain Vista (Large 1 bdm.) - $810.01
> Sheraton Mountain Vista (2 bdm. lockoff) - $1,160.92
> 
> Sheraton Vistana Resort - Cascades (2 bdm) - $835.06
> Sheraton Vistana Resort - Cascades (s bdm. L/O) - $1065.11
> Sheraton Vistana Resort - Falls (2 bdm.) - $714.50
> Sheraton Vistana Resort - Fountains I (2 bdm.) - $801.69
> Sheraton Vistana Resort - Fountains II (2 bdm.) - $942.52
> Sheraton Vistant Resort - Lakes (2 bdm.) - $923.27
> Sheraton Vistana Resort - Springs (2 bdm.) - $795.19
> 
> Sheraton Vistana Villages - Bella (1 bdm.) - $596.91
> Sheraton Vistana Villages - Bella (2 bdm.) -1,194.19
> Sheraton Vistana Villages - Bella  (2 bdm. L/O) - $1,534
> Sheraton Vistana Villages - Key West (1 bdm.) - $563.37
> Sheraton Vistana Villages - Key West (2 bdm.) - $1,062.73
> 
> Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas (2 bdm.) - $ 2,346.36
> Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas (2 bdm. Dlx) - $3,076.69
> 
> Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas North (2 bdm.) - $2479.60
> 
> Westin Kierland Villas (EOY 1 bdm.) - $398.88
> Westin Kierland Villas (2 bm. L/O) - $1,237.30
> 
> Westin Mission Hills
> 2BR LO EY - $1,484.76
> 
> Westin St. John - these figures include the SA of Approx. $625, but do not include taxes
> 3BR Pool Villa EY - $3,439.31
> 3BR Pool Villa EOY - $1,719.66
> Terrace Suite - $1,719.53
> Townhouse Suite - $2,992.79
> 2BR Townhouse - $2,866.05
> 2BR Premium - $3,439.07
> 3BR Premium - $3.439.31
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Vistana Resort - Springs
> 
> Operating Assessment - $616.81
> Replacement Reserve - $95.48
> Estimated Real Estate Tax - $82.90
> SVN Fee - $0.00 *
> ARDA Contribution - $0.00 **
> 
> TOTAL - $795.19
> 
> Increase over 2009 - $98.77 / 14.2%
> 
> * No charge - additional week
> ** Not paying​




*2 bedroom lock off - ocean view - float week (2009 increase of $708 from 2008 and $827 from 2007)

Maintenance Fee(s)    $ 2,479.60  
Tax - If Applicable    $ 0.00  
Membership Fee - If Applicable    $ 113.53  
Other*    $ 0.00  
Interest    $ 0.00  
Late Fees    $ 0.00  
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.**    $ 5.00  
Sub-Total
Current Year Charges    $ 2,598.13  
Total Due    $ 2,598.13  
Projected Fees for Next Year    $ 2,593.13  *​


----------



## stive1

Smaller One bedroom Vistana Cascades.  

Maintenance Fee(s)    $ 583.99  

Tax - If Applicable    $ 90.18  

Membership Fee - If Applicable    $ 0.00  

Other*    $ 0.00  

Interest    $ 0.00  

Late Fees    $ 0.00  

ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.**    $ 5.00  

Sub-Total
Current Year Charges    $ 674.17  



This includes $251.34 special assesment and would be $422.83 with out it.


----------



## mdk442

Our MF went up 26% over last year
Sheraton Vistana Villages
2 BR L/O
$1648 are the fees ($1305 for 2009)

When I called got the same BS about people not paying. If I need to pay more to compensate for others than I should get additional days to stay or starwood points.


----------



## DisneyDerek

Ken555 said:


> Err... not to change the topic further, but this type of post deserves a response. Summer weeks at WMH are the most available, as compared to any other time of year. If you don't reserve in advance, however, you may not get the week you want. When did you first call to make your reservation? 12 months out? 8 months out? or 3 months out? It makes a big difference...
> 
> As a point of comparison, II had (as they tend to have every year) many, many units at WMH available for getaway weeks during the summer for as little as $250 or so per week. They also have plenty of availability at the three Marriott timeshares in the Palm Springs area as well.



Ken, sorry for the late reply. We booked 90 days out as we were trying to book a weekend stay from July 31st-Aug 2. We haven't had a problem in the past getting rooms at the Westin Mission Hills Villas on summer weekends so I was a little surprised when there was no availability for the remainder of 2009 (excluding 2 or 3 midweek dates).  We typically breakup our points to allow a long weekend 2 bedroom stay at the Westin Kierland followed by a trip to Westin Mission Hills.  Since my wife and I both work, we allowed my in-laws to use the remainder of our points to book one of the 2 available mid-week options at Westin Mission Hills. Hope that answers your question.


----------



## Ken555

DisneyDerek said:


> Ken, sorry for the late reply. We booked 90 days out as we were trying to book a weekend stay from July 31st-Aug 2. We haven't had a problem in the past getting rooms at the Westin Mission Hills Villas on summer weekends so I was a little surprised when there was no availability for the remainder of 2009 (excluding 2 or 3 midweek dates).  We typically breakup our points to allow a long weekend 2 bedroom stay at the Westin Kierland followed by a trip to Westin Mission Hills.  Since my wife and I both work, we allowed my in-laws to use the remainder of our points to book one of the 2 available mid-week options at Westin Mission Hills. Hope that answers your question.



Well, that explains it. Starwood deposits a large number of WMH weeks into II when they're available to do so, which must directly remove availability from SVN. You really shouldn't overly complain about availability <6 months, in my opinion, and reserving *anything* 90 days or less should be considered extremely lucky almost any time of year. It sounds like you have an expectation of availability which just isn't realistic - sorry.


----------



## barndweller

*Villas of Cave Creek*

Got my MF bill today.

This resort is all 2 bedroom units. We were recently offered a chance to join SVN free. I declined. My MF has increased 17% over last year. Last year we had a complete renovation of all units with no special assessment. The excuse given for the huge hike in fees is the Starwood party line: delinquencies.

2010 operating assessment   894.82
2010 replacement reserve     101.36
total due                            996.18

I purchased in 2006. MF were 684.17 for 2007. I'm fed up with Starwood. I will lobby to get rid of them as our management company and hire VRI or TPI. Those companies have kept costs down and actively pursue deliquent accounts. 

With the new system at II I have lost trading power and control of my reservation. Starwood has screwed owners of this independent resort bigtime!


----------



## GeneNWendy

Does anyone know why the MF at the Westin St. John for 2-bedroom premium units and 3-bedroom premium units are basically the same?  I noticed on the sheet listing all the fees that the pool villa was also the same (just pennies apart).  I would think it would cost more to maintain a unit with an additional bedroom, particularly if it has its own private pool.


----------



## LisaRex

GeneNWendy, I can't answer your question but I'd start by comparing square footage between the two units.  If they are equivalent, then there's your answer.


----------



## ada903

I have an annual two bedroom at Sheraton Vistana Cascades and never received by maintenance fee dues in the mail, and the account shows zero due.  I did not pay yet my 2010 fees, and I know they are due January 1 2010.  I am wondering if everyone else received their billing statement already?  I should probably call on Monday and ask what's happening.


----------



## grgs

ada903 said:


> I have an annual two bedroom at Sheraton Vistana Cascades and never received by maintenance fee dues in the mail, and the account shows zero due.  I did not pay yet my 2010 fees, and I know they are due January 1 2010.  I am wondering if everyone else received their billing statement already?  I should probably call on Monday and ask what's happening.



Yes, I received mine quite a while ago.  The last installment of the SA also came (can't remember now if that was in the same mailing, or a separate one).

The mf are due Jan. 5; the SA on Feb. 16.

Glorian


----------



## James1975NY

tlpnet said:


> Denise,
> 
> WSJ's a little different from the other resorts with SA's because they are not listed that way on either the invoices or on MSC. This is one of the issues that WSJ owners have because we don't really know the amount of the SA each year. We received a letter last year stating that it would increase owner's MF's for 2009, 2010, and 2011 by an average of $625 per week (no breakdown by unit type). Therefore, there is no breakdown to post, just a note that it is included.
> 
> David - please let us know if I'm wrong.
> 
> -tim



Studio - $519.07 SA 
One Bedroom - $692.12 SA
Two Bedroom - $865.17 SA
Two Bedroom (Premier) - $1038.15 SA
Three Bedroom - $1038.22 SA


----------



## HenryT

*2010 Harborside Maintenance Bill*

Just got the proposed Harborside maintenance bill for 2010. I was holding my breath but I knew it would be a big increase.

My 2009 bill for a 2 bedroom lockoff unit (Phase 1) was $2,485.27. The proposed 2010 bill is $2,979.24. Almost a 20% increase.

These timeshare vacations are getting more and more expensive. Oh well. It is a great resort.


----------



## csudell

I just got my bill and nearly had a heart attack - one bedroom deluxe 1517.13 and 1631.03 for a one bedroom premium.  i will not be able to afford to keep my unit with an increase like this.


----------



## LAX Mom

Henry-
That's over $400 per night in MF! Wow, I know it's a great resort but that's a lot to pay in MF. What do those units rent for?


----------



## HenryT

LAX Mom said:


> Henry-
> That's over $400 per night in MF! Wow, I know it's a great resort but that's a lot to pay in MF. What do those units rent for?



If you rent through the resort they charge over $1,000 per night (Thanksgiving week which I own) for a 2 bed lockoff unit. The average rental rate for an owner direct rental ranges from $4,000 - $5,000 per week ($572 - $714 per night). I usually rent out the smaller 1 bedroom unit and use the larger 1 bed unit myself which cuts my cost in half.


----------



## jerseygirl

Our late May week rents for about $6300 through atlantisfamilyfun.  An owner would net about $4400 after their 30% commission.  

Through the resort, the rent is also about $6300 right now, but you would also have to pay almost $1000 in taxes, service fees, etc for a total of just under $7300.

I'm sure the differential is much greater for those who own better weeks, e.g., 4th of July through atlantisfamilyfun is a little over $7000, and there's nothing available through the resort itself.  Easter would be a great week to own ... atlantisfamilyfun is asking over $10000 and the owner would net $7000.

Not as good of a rental return as there used to be, that's for sure.

Oops -- sorry, Henry beat me to it!


----------



## LAX Mom

Thanks Henry & jerseygirl-
That makes those MF's not so bad if you use it yourself or rent it out. I've stayed there twice, once on the Last Minute Rentals (1 bedroom for $700) and once on an II exchange (obtained during Flexchange). It is a wonderful place and if you could visit every year I can see why you'd want to own a week!


----------



## jw0

*Phase 2 HRA*

I also got my "proposed" MF bill for Harborside today.  I own at phase 2.

These amounts include the $109 SVN fee, which, after all, is mandatory.

1 BR - $1342.27
1 BR premium - $1436.72
2 BR - $1613.66
2 BR lockout - $2558.14
3 BR lockout - $2735.63

I'll have to look closer at my bill last year, but I think the increase is less than 10% (for my 2BR EOY unit).

Looks like the BOD meeting will be on Friday, Dec. 18th.

 - John.


----------



## komosatp

jw0 said:


> I also got my "proposed" MF bill for Harborside today.  I own at phase 2.
> 
> These amounts include the $109 SVN fee, which, after all, is mandatory.
> 
> 1 BR - $1342.27
> 1 BR premium - $1436.72
> 2 BR - $1613.66
> 2 BR lockout - $2558.14
> 3 BR lockout - $2735.63
> 
> I'll have to look closer at my bill last year, but I think the increase is less than 10% (for my 2BR EOY unit).
> 
> Looks like the BOD meeting will be on Friday, Dec. 18th.
> 
> - John.



I got my budget too.  I'm in phase 2 as well.

Per my calculations, the increase was 6.8%...2009 was $1,256.76 for the regular one bedroom.

I was watching out for one thing because I was wondering what was going to happen to it: the Atlantis access fee.  Per our access deed, it changes based on the CPI.  Which means it should have gone down since there's been some deflation over the past year.

But I hadn't noticed before that its based on the BAHAMIAN CPI, which showed an increase.  So the Atlantis access fee increased 4.3%.


----------



## gnipgnop

Sheraton Broadway Plantation.........$881.62, Outragous!


----------



## pathways25

*Westin Princeville Ocean Resort Villas (2BR lockoff)*

Current Year Charges
Maintenance Fee(s) 		  $ 2,155.37
Tax - If Applicable 		  $ 0.00
Membership Fee - If Applicable 		  $ 113.53
Other* 		  $ 100.00
Interest 		  $ 0.00
Late Fees 		  $ 0.00
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.** 		  $ 5.00

Sub-Total
Current Year Charges 		  $ 2,373.90
Less Payments*** 		  $ 0.00
Total Due 		  $ 2,373.90

Projected Fees for Next Year 		  $ 2,368.90 


Last year's MF's were $2250.99 + $100 (other), a 4% decrease!


----------



## jhd

jerseygirl said:


> I'm in six different Starwood associations and I NEVER recall seeing a true BOD election sheet.  I stopped returning my proxies years ago as they contain no information that allows me to make a valid decision.
> 
> With all my other timeshares, I receive:
> 
> 
> First, a solicitation -- everyone is welcome to run
> A BIO sheet with room for a position statement -- you return this if you want to run
> Then, with the annual meeting notice, we see all the BIO sheets and position statements and are able to make REAL choices
> 
> There's a lot of things I don't like about Starwood's management and administration.  But, I think this is one of the most important, if not *the *most important, item that needs changed.


Would be nice if Owners had at least one representative on the Owners Association.  I received the Proxy form 12/9/09,  and had the option to name a proxy holder who would be at the meeting or  the Directors would vote for me.  Oh, and my proxy had to be received by 12/14/09.

Starwood doesn't make it easy.


----------



## Shon_t

DanCali said:


> Certainly most Starwood and Marriott properties are a step above most Worldmark properties so they are not comparable in quality. As a result, the level of maintenance fees at Worldmark should be (and is) lower.



Are they really though...or is this just another way for people to justify paying exorbitant MF fees? 

For the sake of argument, I would concur that they are often nicer units...but 2-3 times nicer ( in comparison with paying 2-3 times the MFs  that would be paid at Worldmark)? It seems like Worldmark owners seem to have similar trading power on RCI or II, and if they are staying at a Marriott or Starwood property, Who is getting the better deal?

I think these fee hikes are outrageous...especially since hotel and resort rental prices have actually dropped substantially this year. Global average Hotel rental prices in 2008 dropped 12%, and in the first half of 2009 dropped 17%. In fact...in 2008 prices were only 1% above the 2004 rate.

So...if prices for rentals have basically been going down  roughly 28% over the last two years...why are MFs going up by double digits? 

Many of us bought into the timeshare idea, thinking that with the average annual increase in hotel rental prices, we were somehow locking in some value. I wasn't naive enough to think I would beat inflation (that's just a sales gimmic), but I would at least think that over the long run, there would be some sort of value owning vs. renting.

Instead...if there is inventory, someone off the street can walk into the Maui resort and rent a 2 bedroom at $120 per night...($840 per week) and somebody that owns the unit is paying $1200  or more...EVERY YEAR. (This is a real example, but not exactly fair since they went in off season...still...I think it makes a valid point.)

When does ownership stop making sense?

I figure my MFs (not counting the original purchase price) save me about 50% over the cost of a rental, but in the last year...rental prices have come down so dramatically, in some hard hit areas...it is almost a wash! If I include the initial purchase price, it will take years before I actually break even...and that is only assuming that rental prices climb at a higher rate than my MFs. The less disparity between the rental rate and the MFs, ...the longer it will take for me to break even, if at all.

Some of the fees are getting so high...it wont be much longer before they are pretty much comparable to what regular rental prices are.


----------



## Shon_t

Just doing some quick calculations...if I just used my timeshare for the two weeks that I own...based on current rental prices in relation to the MFs, it would take me about 12 years to break even (strictly in a financial sense). Fortunately...I bought resell...If I actually bought from the developer...it would take substantially longer.

Of course...there are many other variables that could increase or decrease the time it would take to break even. If I use quite a bit of time making last minute rental bookings using owner rates...even though I am spending money...I am still spending less than what I could rent at regular rates for.

Of course...if MFs continue to climb...while rental rates continue to drop...I might never get out of the hole!


----------



## DanCali

Shon_t - I'm among the most vocal people blasting MF increases so I think we are on the same page...



Shon_t said:


> Are they really though...or is this just another way for people to justify paying exorbitant MF fees?
> 
> For the sake of argument, I would concur that they are often nicer units...but 2-3 times nicer ( in comparison with paying 2-3 times the MFs that would be paid at Worldmark)? It seems like Worldmark owners seem to have similar trading power on RCI or II, and if they are staying at a Marriott or Starwood property, Who is getting the better deal?



My point regarding Worldmark was that I can justify higher MF levels if the properties are nicer, but I percentage increases should be similar (you totally skipped over this point). Increases in MFs are due to higher labor costs, energy costs etc and should affect resorts roughly at the same proportion.

I haven't stayed at Worldmark properties yet (will be at one in 3 weeks) so I can't really compare with SVO, but if you look at reviews on TUG you will see that many Worldmarks have ratings between 5 and 8 (some are higher) while for SVO resorts Sheratons are between 8 and 9 and Westins are generally above 9. So it's hard to say quality is comparable. If you measure it by quality of trades in II, that's probably not a good measure since most SVO owners do not buy to trade with II (see survey results)




Shon_t said:


> When does ownership stop making sense?



As to when does ownership stop making sense - it depends what you think about MF increases. In my opinion if they stabilize to CPI levels it probably still makes sense. If they grow even at 5% (let alone 15%) a year then it's a matter of time before resale values go to zero at which point ownership is a liability (some resorts are already there). In other words, don't count on your heirs getting something of value - they may beg you to will it to the HOA...

Some resorts like WKV Platinum season still have substantial value because you can get the most bang for your buck with internal trades. Whether that will last that's a different question... Other resorts like WKORV/N, WPORV, WSJ, HRA are fantastic but in my opinion MFs are at levels that the "upper middle class" (probably Starwood's target market) would find it hard to justify paying so it significantly limits the potential market. And even if they would pay those MFs, they certainly would want to see a ceiling to increases and would not want to pay a high upfront cost to the developer or a reseller. Hence the resale prices we are seeing...

From what I see at SVO I find it hard to believe MF increases will stabilize at most resorts and I am in the process of "rebalancing" my portfolio accordingly.


----------



## Shon_t

I think we ARE on the same page. 

I also completely agree with your point about the MFs increases needing to be similar in increase.




> I haven't stayed at Worldmark properties yet (will be at one in 3 weeks) so I can't really compare with SVO, but if you look at reviews on TUG you will see that many Worldmarks have ratings between 5 and 8 (some are higher) while for SVO resorts Sheratons are between 8 and 9 and Westins are generally above 9. So it's hard to say quality is comparable. If you measure it by quality of trades in II, that's probably not a good measure since most SVO owners do not buy to trade with II (see survey results)



Fair enough...and I wasn't disputing what you said...I was only asking a related question:

If an SVO resort has a Tug rating of 8, it is worth paying twice as much as a Worldmark property that has a TUG rating of 7?

I wasn't really trying to compare the two resorts as to which one is better, but rather point out the large disparity between the MFs for both groups.

Now some people might argue that yes, in terms of service, location, ambiance, etc., it is well worth paying double the MFs.  I certainly can't dispute that..it is a personal choice.

But I still wonder how a neutral party, with no money tied up in the the whole process might look at it. Sure...one resort is nicer...but twice as nice?

Of course...if the MFs weren't going up in one resort system by 12% or more a year...and the other by 5%, we wouldn't even be having this conversation!


----------



## LisaRex

As far as the resorts being "nicer" then that would (and is) reflected in the purchase price and the reserve fund.  After all, granite is more expensive than laminate, Westin heavenly beds are more expensive than an off-brand,  a pirate ship pool is more expensive to build than a rectangular pool, etc. 

But as far as everyday maintenance goes, cleaning a 1200 foot unit should cost the same whether you have granite countertop and stainless steel appliances or Formica countertops and olive green appliances.


----------



## Shon_t

LisaRex said:


> As far as the resorts being "nicer" then that would (and is) reflected in the purchase price and the reserve fund.  After all, granite is more expensive than laminate, Westin heavenly beds are more expensive than an off-brand,  a pirate ship pool is more expensive to build than a rectangular pool, etc.
> 
> But as far as everyday maintenance goes, cleaning a 1200 foot unit should cost the same whether you have granite countertop and stainless steel appliances or Formica countertops and olive green appliances.



Don't you need to buy special granite cleaner? In my experience stainless is a little more difficult to clean as well 

Seriously though...I get your point and agree. Even if you suppose the maintenance  fee is higher due to more staff, and better service, I just don't think it justifies fees that are 2-3 x as high.


----------



## Take Action

*HOA Protections for florida owners, write today*

My name is Abby Ross and Senator Aronberg asked me to follow up with you on your e-mail to him as it relates to your timeshare concern.



I consulted with some of our HOA experts to learn what is happening this year, and was provided with the following info:=



Several pieces of legislation are being worked on to deal with the economic consequences for individual homeowners as described in the e-mail.  Sponsors already working on these issues include Senators Ring, Fasano and Sobel, and Representatives Robaina and Ambler, so far. They are already working hard to find the best solution to help remedy this problem. 



I’d be happy to put you in touch with or provide any contact info for these members if that would help you. I hope you find this helpful.



Please let me know if we can assist with anything further at this time.



Thanks for your time,



Abby



Abby Ross

Legislative Aide

Senator Dave Aronberg

Florida Senate District 27

Ross.Abby.S27@flsenate.gov

(561) 433-2627 Phone

(561) 434-3995 Fax

6415 Lake Worth Road, Suite 210

Greenacres, FL 33463


----------



## oneohana

*WLOR mf's*

Just got my mf's for WLOR

1 bedroom premium EY: $740.5
Studio EOY: $219.06

Does not include SVN membership.

They actually went down    

Please do not rain on my parade and mention the other SVN mf's.
At least 1 of my mf's went down. 1 is better than none.


----------



## LisaRex

Oneohana, I am very glad that your WLR MFs went down.  Good for you!


----------



## DanCali

It's amazing how Starwood finds ways to lower MFs at resorts where there is still an active sales effort - like WPORV and WLR. Where there is a will there is a way.

I don't buy the delinquencies story for a second. WKORV owners can always sell a unit for a 10K-15K and the market is quite liquid. There is no need to ruin credit histories by not paying. Ditto for SVV... WPORV and WLR (voluntary) has lower valuations and less demand yet all owners pay MFs and costs go down? Great for those owners but the delinquencies story is b______t imo.


----------



## Bobby_Fletcher

DanCali said:


> I don't buy the delinquencies story for a second.



Let's for a second assume the story is legit:

If we are all chippng in to cover the delinquencies, shouldn't the defaulted weeks come back to the HOA, rather than the developer? They resell the defaulted weeks and make pure profit. Proceeds from that 2nd sale should come back and reimburse us all.


----------



## DanCali

Bobby_Fletcher said:


> Let's for a second assume the story is legit:
> 
> If we are all chippng in to cover the delinquencies, shouldn't the defaulted weeks come back to the HOA, rather than the developer? They resell the defaulted weeks and make pure profit. Proceeds from that 2nd sale should come back and reimburse us all.



At WKORV, where the resale value is still 4-5 times MFs the HOA should foreclose and resell the weeks. Even if they did it via a broker they should come out well ahead after commissions and foreclosure costs.

Instead what I believe has been happening is that they are renting them using Starwood. I've posted my theory on what happens here in other places, but in a nutshell after Starwood deducts a 50% commission and 7 housekeeping charges not much is left over to cover the delinquencies...

A recent report from the Board meeting this week posted in the Starwood forum says that they are planning to start foreclosing and reselling. In my view, that is good news at this resort - but let's see if they follow through.


----------



## ada903

I own a two bedroom in the Sheraton Vistana Courts section, and so far I have not received my maintenance fee bill, which is typically due January 1st.  I called and I was told statements should be going out soon?  I wonder if I should just make a payment equal to last year's fees, to avoid late payment fees. My account online shows zero balance due.  Did anyone who owns Courts receive their maintenance fee bill? Also, they are supposed to bill the third installment of the refurbishment fee due January 1st, and that one didn't come either, nor does it show online.


----------



## mariawolf

*Harborside Maintenance fees*

Boy didn't take them long to get out--annual meeting on the 18th--less than a week ago and due January 18th--clearly they were ready to be dropped in the mail--$2979.24 for two bedroom lockoff and $1441.14 for the smaller one bedroom--both phase 1


----------



## csudell

harborside 1 bedroom premium 1631.05 in phase 1.

251.37 per ownership week increase due to uncollectible accounts
125.00 per ownership week increase due to increase in reserves for improvements.

werent last year's fees due in february?


----------



## WalnutBaron

DanCali said:


> It's amazing how Starwood finds ways to lower MFs at resorts where there is still an active sales effort - like WPORV and WLR. Where there is a will there is a way.
> 
> I don't buy the delinquencies story for a second. WKORV owners can always sell a unit for a 10K-15K and the market is quite liquid. There is no need to ruin credit histories by not paying. Ditto for SVV... WPORV and WLR (voluntary) has lower valuations and less demand yet all owners pay MFs and costs go down? Great for those owners but the delinquencies story is b______t imo.



While I would never think of being an apologist for Starwood (and I agree that MF increases overall are outrageous), WPORV MF's increased by nearly 20% from 2008 to 2009.  This would tend to undermine your assertion that they conveniently found a way to decrease MF's for a resort which is still actively selling unsold weeks.


----------



## yumdrey

Shon_t said:


> Are they really though...or is this just another way for people to justify paying exorbitant MF fees?
> 
> For the sake of argument, I would concur that they are often nicer units...but 2-3 times nicer ( in comparison with paying 2-3 times the MFs  that would be paid at Worldmark)? It seems like Worldmark owners seem to have similar trading power on RCI or II, and if they are staying at a Marriott or Starwood property, Who is getting the better deal?



I often compare what I can see on II with Worldmark (2BR) and WMH (gold plus 2BR). I can say that Worldmark has much BETTER trading power than WMH, especially after starwood changed their trading rule. The only benefit of WMH is 3 days starwood priority. When I could see Marriotts (even in Hawaii) with Worldmark, WMH could not see them. 
For domestic exchanges, Worldmark has a little stronger power than WMH. For international exchanges, Worldmark is much better than WMH.
For about the MF, I pay $1,000/year for 20,000 worldmark credits (it is equal to *two* prime season 2BR), and I pay $1,500 *PLUS* real estate tax (around $140/year) for WMH.
I have never stayed at worldmark resort, but I exchanged my worldmark points to Royal Sands (summer), Westin Lagunamar, many Marriotts and DVC. So the resort quality of Worldmark isn't matter for me.


----------



## Surfcat

*Typical Scum*



DanCali said:


> At WKORV, where the resale value is still 4-5 times MFs the HOA should foreclose and resell the weeks. Even if they did it via a broker they should come out well ahead after commissions and foreclosure costs.
> 
> Instead what I believe has been happening is that they are renting them using Starwood. I've posted my theory on what happens here in other places, but in a nutshell after Starwood deducts a 50% commission and 7 housekeeping charges not much is left over to cover the delinquencies...
> 
> A recent report from the Board meeting this week posted in the Starwood forum says that they are planning to start foreclosing and reselling. In my view, that is good news at this resort - but let's see if they follow through.



Hawaii si trying to bankrupt themselves by taxing timehsares as residences...pure genius!


----------



## zcrider

*why do our MF $$ go toward delinquent accounts?*

Sorry if I should know the answer to this, but I don't see why we should be billed for other poeple not paying their MF's.  They get forclosed on and the week gets resold.........the cost is recouped (probably many times over by starwood developer prices).  In the mean time since that person is not using that week..........starwood rents it for a profit anyway, especially now that they keep the best weeks for themselves!  This seems like pure BS to me.  Why don't we fight the issue?????


----------



## GeneNWendy

*Possible Class Action Suit against Westin St John*

Hi Henry,

There's probably going to be a class action suit against WSJ and Starwood for the extremely high maintenance fees there.  This suit could escalate to other Starwood resorts.  Please send me a private message with your contact info. if you're interested in participating.

GeneNWendy  






HenryT said:


> Just got the proposed Harborside maintenance bill for 2010. I was holding my breath but I knew it would be a big increase.
> 
> My 2009 bill for a 2 bedroom lockoff unit (Phase 1) was $2,485.27. The proposed 2010 bill is $2,979.24. Almost a 20% increase.
> 
> These timeshare vacations are getting more and more expensive. Oh well. It is a great resort.


----------



## mariawolf

The problem is that Starwood isn't making any attempt to do anything to the owners who don't pay their fees except not let them use their units.
According to someone at the annual meeting they aren't making any attempt to rent the units--and apparently foreclosing isn't as easy in the Bahamas.
It is likely the owners who have loans who aren't paying their fees so they wouldn't be able to use them anyway.
Something has to be done to force the Board to rent these units and pay the maintenance fees on them so we don't have to!


----------



## DavidnRobin

The thing is that they are being used by SVO by exchange or renting methods - unlikely much money making it back to the HOA.  This is the real issue that needs to be exposed.


----------



## Troopers

DavidnRobin said:


> The thing is that they are being used by SVO by exchange or renting methods - unlikely much money making it back to the HOA.  This is the real issue that needs to be exposed.



My recollection is that revenue from delinquent weeks goes back to the delinquent account.

Not sure if that's exactly right but it's something like that.


----------



## mariawolf

That may in fact be the case.
However, are they using the week the owner owns or are they somehow capturing the premium weeks that are not reserved by the 10 or 8 month timeframe--that may explain why it is almost impossible for owners who own in really popular locations (Harborside or St John) can just about never book in their own season in their own resort??
I never really thought about it when I tried to reserve==but now with so many delinquent owners you would think it would be easier but it is not.


----------



## naka4

GeneNWendy said:


> Hi Henry,
> 
> There's probably going to be a class action suit against WSJ and Starwood for the extremely high maintenance fees there.  This suit could escalate to other Starwood resorts.  Please send me a private message with your contact info. if you're interested in participating.
> 
> GeneNWendy



I'm another unhappy owner and very interested in participating!


----------



## naka4

*Early Maintence Fee Drawing*

Did anyone get suckered into paying your maintenance fees early to get into the contest? We did and I was just told by SVO that only the winners would be notified and they would not be publishing the names of the winners! 

How do we know they actually awarded anything! Did anyone here?


----------



## tsltsltsl

*Maui time-share taxes surge*

check out the recent article in Pacific Business News (Honolulu) - by Janis L. Magin Pacific Business News

http://pacific.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2010/01/25/story1.html?b=1264395600^2773301

title of article is: Maui time-share taxes surge


----------



## GeneNWendy

*Please send me a private message*

If you want to participate, please send me a private message with:

1. Name
2. Address
3. Contact Telephone number
4. Week(s) Owned
5. Unit(s) Owned

GeneNWendy





naka4 said:


> I'm another unhappy owner and very interested in participating!


----------



## ada903

Finally got the maintenance fee bill for 2010 for my two bedroom townhouse at Sheraton Vistana Courts.  Bill due is $953.17, which is a 12% increase from last year's bill.  They dropped the refurbishment fees by $402, instead of a total refurbishment fee of $2,555, now the total bill will be $2,153.  I was expecting a 20% increase in the maintenance fee and no decrease on refurbishment, so I am somewhat relieved. I am wondering if they will still invite us, Courts owners, to join Starwoods when the refurbishment is completed, as they promised?


----------



## DeniseM

When/where did they make that promise?  I hadn't heard that.  Only Courts and not the rest of the renovated phases?

I think MF for SVR were due around Jan. 10th - when was your's due?


----------



## ada903

I have a nice printed flier from them stating clearly they are reducing refurbishment fees for the Courts for the remaining three payments; the reduction does not apply retrospectively to the two payments that were already made in 2009, but it applies to the remaining three payments: "the three remaining payments will now be in the amounts of $251.24 for villas and $376.86 for townhomes, which are reductions of $89.44, and $134.16, per payment, respectively. These amounts represent a 26.3% reduction from the originally budgeted 2010 payments.  The refurbishment project fees will be billed separate from the maintenance fee and two months prior due to their due dates of May 1, July 1, and October 1.".  My maintenance fee bill is due April 2, 2010, in a total of $953.17 (excluding the optional $5 for ARDA), and I own a townhome (not a villa).


----------



## DeniseM

This is the part of your statement that I was asking about:



> I am wondering if they will still invite us, Courts owners, to join Starwoods when the refurbishment is completed, as they promised?


----------



## ada903

I have a printed flier they mailed when they first sent us the refurbishment dues, and it stated than upon completion of the refurbishment project, the owners will be invited to join Starwoods: "An added benefit that will be available to Courts Owners at completion of the refurbishment project is membership into the Starwood Vacation Network (SVN). Entrance into this system will open the availability of direct exchange into other SVN member resorts."


----------



## DeniseM

Thanks ada903 - in the past, some of these offers stipulated that the owner must have purchased their TS by a certain date to qualify - did your offer have a date?


----------



## ada903

No, it doesn't have any dates or other details.  I bought my unit in the summer of 2008 on resale and I am the one who paid the full refurbishment fees on it, so I hope the cutoff date is not before summer 2008, that would make me very angry.


----------



## DeniseM

I hope so too, but that has sometimes happened in the past.  Good luck!


----------



## jerseygirl

Hold onto your letter if you want to join (depending on your usage patterns, you could get more value trading through II or RCI points).  I don't see how they could weasel out of it if the letter was sent to you (not the previous owner).


----------



## jarta

jerseygirl is right.  Hold on to any letter.

And read this TUG thread:  http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83438

...   eom


----------



## ada903

I have the paper even though it's full of my handwriting on the sides; perhaps I should scan it and post it somewhere so we can remind Starwood of their promises?  Denise, is there some place we can put it if I scan it?


----------



## jerseygirl

I don't think you'll need to remind them --- it's in Starwood's best interests ($$$$) to enroll as many people as possible in SVN.  They only discriminate against resale buyers as it's an effective tool in moving developer inventory for some buyers. 

If there's a date on the letter, and it's after the date the deed was transferred to your name .... or if your name and address is printed on it .... you're probably fine.


----------



## Ken555

I'd love to see a copy of that letter. I spoke with several people at SVN and they refused to qualify my SVR weeks (bought in spring 08). They even said that the refurbishment "has nothing to do with admittance to the SVN program" several times to me on the phone. 

Personally, I want it in the program so my travel options open up in future, assuming SVN stays around. At the moment, I'm getting much better results by using those weeks in II, though of course that's also sometimes a challenge.


----------



## DeniseM

ada903 - If you can scan the letter (put a post-it over your personal info.) and send it to me as an attachment to email, I can post it on TUG.

Please send it to dbmmayer @ gmail.com (without extra spaces)


----------



## ada903

I will scan it at work tomorrow and send it to you!


----------



## bulldogz

ada903 said:


> I have a nice printed flier from them stating clearly they are reducing refurbishment fees for the Courts for the remaining three payments; the reduction does not apply retrospectively to the two payments that were already made in 2009, but it applies to the remaining three payments: "the three remaining payments will now be in the amounts of $251.24 for villas and $376.86 for townhomes, which are reductions of $89.44, and $134.16, per payment, respectively. These amounts represent a 26.3% reduction from the originally budgeted 2010 payments.  The refurbishment project fees will be billed separate from the maintenance fee and two months prior due to their due dates of May 1, July 1, and October 1.".  My maintenance fee bill is due April 2, 2010, in a total of $953.17 (excluding the optional $5 for ARDA), and I own a townhome (not a villa).



ada903,

when did you receive the flier?  I have not yet receive mine.  I just checked Starcentral and do see the Maintenace Fee...  (whew)... Its not as bad as I expected...  and the bonus of reduced refurbishment cost  ($400)   

wonder what they cut back from the refurbished cost?


----------



## ada903

The flier came last year, when they initially sent us the refurbishment fees due info.  I scanned it and email it to Denise, so she should be able to post it soon.  All that my letter for this year says is that they were able to cut down the refurbishment fees due to "cost saving initiatives".


----------



## jarta

bulldogz,   ...   "wonder what they cut back from the refurbished cost?"

I had lunch yesterday with a member of the HOA Board I used to be on.  Ongoing major balcony restorations are being done on all the townhome units where I live.

The bids from contractors for this year's work are about 20% less than what had been bid per unit for the same balcony work last year.  The economy affects everyone.  Contractors need to keep their crews busy and are taking less money to do the same jobs.  3 years ago contractors were King - if you could even get them to bid on projects.

So, while I do not know for sure, it could be that the savings did not come from changes in the specifications which lower the quality of the finished product.  They may have come because the bids for the work came in lower than budgeted or expected.   ...  eom


----------



## DeniseM

*SVR Courts Special Assesment & SVN Invite*

This document was provided by ada903 - THANKS!


----------



## ada903

Thanks Denise, and apologies for my scribbling all over, I was calculating my dues for my three units, all of which had large refurbishment fees due


----------



## YYJMSP

*Westin Lagunamar*

I don't recall seeing this listed yet -- we just got our 2010 MF invoice today (due Mar 2nd)

The back of the sheet says:

1BR Studio - $448.84 ($385.40 assessment + $63.44 replacement reserve)
1BR Premium - $758.60 ($651.38 + $107.22)
2BR Lockoff - $1207.44 ($1036.78 + $170.66)


----------



## GeneNWendy

*Let your resort prove that!!*

I challenge the resort where your timeshare is located to show you their detail financials, which proves that money from rentals of locked out units goes back to the homeowners association.  I can almost guarantee they won't release that information, at least not voluntarily.


----------



## vistana101

*MF at WKORV*

Does anyone know the MF for a two-bed lockoff island view, EOY ODD at WKORV? (current fees-already checked ones from developer list, anyone know how much gone up?)


----------



## DeniseM

It is a little more than half the EY rate - Approx. half + $30 + SVN fee.

Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas (2 bdm.) - $ 2,346.36

There is a sticky at the top of the forum with this year's MF - I moved your post to that thread.


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## jjking42

wow what were they last year ?

I saw this auction and thought it was wrong
http://cgi.ebay.com/148K-Staroption...dZViewItemQQptZTimeshares?hash=item45f109c157


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## DeniseM

Hi Jim - in 2004 the MF for my WKORV 2 bdm. was $1,200 - this year is it $2,300 - an increase of $1,100 in 6 years.  :annoyed: 

For the past 5 years, Starwood has been hammering us with double digit MF increases, and this year Maui county decided to add an extra high property tax just for TS owners, PLUS  Starwood is charging us for other owners who are in arrears on their MF.  Nice, huh?

It's killing the already ailing resale market.


----------



## stive1

Haven't seen it listed any where and was curious if anyone knows what the MF are for an EOY SVR Cascades Lock off unit.  I saw the EY fees but did not know if it would be 1/2 of that amount or if they ran a higher percentage similar to what my EOY Desert Oasis runs vs the annual amount.


----------



## lily28

MF for my eoy odd svr cascade for 2010 is $410.03, the third renovation assessment is an additional $266. I think cascade has higher MF than other phases in SVR

I just saw you ask for the MF for the lockoff.  Sorry, mine is only a 2 bedroom


----------



## nodge

mystarcentral.com said:


> "EVERYBODY WINS"
> 
> [...]
> 
> Three drawings will be held, with ten prizes awarded at each drawing. Pay by November 15, 2009 for entry in the first drawing. Pay between November 16 and November 30, 2009 for entry in the second drawing. Pay between December 1 and December 15, 2009 for entry in the third drawing.



So has anyone heard anything about the results from these three drawings?

-nodge


----------



## naka4

I had the same question. Emailed Starwood and was told because of confidentiality reasons, I could not get information on the winners or whether anyone won.

Pretty shady if you ask me.


----------



## thinze3

Is there only one size 2BR unit at WKORVN?
If so, are all the 2BR maintenance fees the same?


----------



## DavidnRobin

thinze3 said:


> Is there only one size 2BR unit at WKORVN?
> If so, are all the 2BR maintenance fees the same?



Correct - all MFs at WKORV-N are the same - except between EY and EOY (add ~$30 for EOY to half the EY MF) - plus the additional yearly payment of the SVN fee (~$114/yr for 1 VOI) since it is not halved for an EOY.


----------



## amundson

I'm just sayin'...could be a nice little profit.

OK, so there are some variables that go into pricing of a week, such as how many star options, resort location, yada yada, MFs, etc, etc.  Did I mention MFs?  Yeah right.  It seems to me that resale price can be completely controlled downward by MFs alone because a buyer looks at the annual MF and says, "I can stay in a hotel or rent a unit for $X, so yeah it is ok for me to pay that many $$ in MFs and I would be willing to pay $Y to own that timeshare."  But, if the MF gets too high, the buyer says "why would I lock myself into this high MF?"  So, anyway, nothing new here and many already feel this pain... 

But, what Dr. Evil (Starwood) could do and it would be particularly nasty, is Dr. Evil could just continue to raise MFs faster than the market prices of renting or hotel stays, driving down the price of "resales" till it gets to the point where there are more people selling their timeshares for $1 just to get rid of the MFs and we would begin to see more and more $1 sales on ebay, etc.  Then the good doctor could swoop in, exercise the ROFR and purchase a few of these for themselves... call it an investment.  

Its just a story, but say Dr. Evil could buy, quite cheaply, till he owns say 20% of the outstanding units, and easily cover any loss in his highly exorbitant MFs, not to mention that these units can also be rented out.  Brilliant. WhaHAHAHAHAHaaaa.   

Now to make this investment grow, just push that MF lever back in the other direction.  Make what is called a sweeping management change, clean house, in some way instantly cut all MFs in half!! Suddenly, Tuggers love Starwood management again, and subsequently the market prices of resales recover, giving Dr. Evil a tidy little profit as he unloads his holdings.    

"Mini Me, you complete me."


----------



## DeniseM

l2trade has been talking about that theory, as well.  Yeah never know!


----------



## DanCali

DeniseM said:


> l2trade has been talking about that theory, as well.  Yeah never know!



l2trade? 

I thought it was me  (at least most recently).  

WKV and a couple of other resorts don't have ROFR but to me it's pretty obvious this is where things are headed - at least at some of the Starwood resorts. No reason for Starwood to do it now (enough inventory from point conversions), but once Starwood can rent WMH at $500/night for a 1BR during Platinum season - watch out!


----------



## DeniseM

Uh, sorry Dan - It was you!


----------



## amundson

DanCali said:


> l2trade?
> 
> I thought it was me  (at least most recently).
> 
> WKV and a couple of other resorts don't have ROFR but to me it's pretty obvious this is where things are headed - at least at some of the Starwood resorts. No reason for Starwood to do it now (enough inventory from point conversions), but once Starwood can rent WMH at $500/night for a 1BR during Platinum season - watch out!



Here is the deal though they ought to be afraid of tort law if they conspired in this way.  

Also, MFs, and I guess this is kind of a question, since I am not sure what exactly goes into an MF, but if units are being rented out then, timeshare owners should not be subsidizing the maintenance for Dr. Evil's rentals... it would be easy to breakout (separately track) those revenues from hotel-type-rental activity and then take a portion of that for MFs.  I imagine that is already being done?  Please tell me yes.  If not, then I suppose I might not be a buyer after all as renting would be the way to go... make reservations last minute for the same price and then let the timeshare folks subsidize my hotel.


----------



## DanCali

amundson said:


> Here is the deal though they ought to be afraid of tort law if they conspired in this way.
> 
> Also, MFs, and I guess this is kind of a question, since I am not sure what exactly goes into an MF, but if units are being rented out then, timeshare owners should not be subsidizing the maintenance for Dr. Evil's rentals... it would be easy to breakout (separately track) those revenues from hotel-type-rental activity and then take a portion of that for MFs.  I imagine that is already being done?  Please tell me yes.  If not, then I suppose I might not be a buyer after all as renting would be the way to go... make reservations last minute for the same price and then let the timeshare folks subsidize my hotel.



If Starwood owns a unit outright they pay MFs. If an owner owns a unit and converts to hotel points the owner pays MFs but Starwood can then rent it. 

There are some other more subtle issues though. Starwood rentls receive daily housekeepin. It is not clear if and how the HOA is reimbursed for that.  They also cause more wear and tear on a unit due to higher turnover from daily retals. Nobody gets reimbursed for that.


----------



## GeneNWendy

*Regarding winners*

That is a bunch of trash.  We asked for an owner's list for the WSJ Virgin Grand Villas and were also denied on the premise that it was due to confidentiality reasons.  However, the owner's names are part of public records found in the deeds office in St. Thomas or the tax accessor's office in St. John.  Does the lottery not tell you who the winners are for confidentiality reasons?  Give me a break!!





naka4 said:


> I had the same question. Emailed Starwood and was told because of confidentiality reasons, I could not get information on the winners or whether anyone won.
> 
> Pretty shady if you ask me.


----------



## Zelda

All of youneed to understand that Starwood got themselves into a deep problem with Raintree Vacation Club and they are both being sued for over $26 million dollars for lying about building the Grand Regina Villas in Los Cabos.   They took the members money and spent it on "commissions and third party debt" and lied and told the members for a time that things were progressing nicely even though they never startedt eh project.  The money was to go in an escrow fund pending construction.  Instead they along with Raintree defrauded the members and spent their money.  They are now in litigation in Chicago.....Cook County Circuit Court.  docket/case # 2009-L-010071..Look it up and see for yourself.
Your increases are not only to pay for all those that can no longer afford to own a timeshare...but to also pay thier court cost and attorney fees and eventually to pay for the costs of this lawsuit.   Which after all is saaid and done will be well over $500million.  Check it out


----------



## DeniseM

Here's the link - https://w3.courtlink.lexisnexis.com...ase=2&case_no=&PLtype=2&sname=Starwood&CDate=


----------



## DanCali

Starwood sued for fraud? Really? shocker...


----------



## stive1

*Sheraton SDO EOY 2 BR L/O fees's*

Looked through the thread but did not see the MF for and EOY 2 BR L/O unit.  I don't know if they are just 1/2 of the annual unit or if they are more expensive.


----------



## DeniseM

It's 1/2 the EY MF + around $40, so about $480-$485

Sheraton Desert Oasis (EOY Lg. 1 bdm) - $325.62
Sheraton Desert Oasis (Sm. 1 bdm.) - $518.63
Sheraton Desert Oasis (Lg. 1 bdm.) - $ 611.25
Sheraton Desert Oasis (2 bdm.) - $889.08


----------



## GeneNWendy

*Do you want to punish Starwood for their outrageous fees?*

As many of you know, the owners at the Westin St. John are planning a class-action suit against Starwood for breaking many laws and using the owners of it's Virgin Grand Villas as ATM machines.  We are also planning to launch a negative PR campaign against Starwood.  The last thing they want is for their reputation to be tarnished, especially with the FTC and SEC watching over them in these post Bernie Madoff days.  I suggest that people with rising fees at all Starwood resorts look at the string we created in Yahoo Finance.  See below how to access it.  Propective buyers of Starwood stock will read this.  This can only hurt them.  Maybe enough of this will get them to change their ways with respect to their timeshare owners.


I posted the string in yahoofinance.com.  It would be helpful to let the folks know on the website that they can go to www.yahoofinance.com.  Get a stock quote for HOT(Starwood's exchange acronym), which will bring up the Starwood trade history and message board on the left side.  Click on that and look for the string "possible legal against starwood" and post a comment.


----------



## gelinasrj

*Wyndham points charges a full year in advance*



tlpnet said:


> Got the bill*s*. With the bills, there is a shiny newsletter that discusses the MF delinquencies and the cost-savings initiatives. And...
> 
> "To help improve the Association's cash flow, we are offering a special incentive to Owners. When you play your maintenance fee early, you will receive valuable money-saving certificates for use at Starwood hotels and resorts and be automatically entered for a chance to win great prizes, like up to 1,000,000 Starpoints from the Starwood Preferred Guest program. This is our way of thanking you for paying early."
> 
> "Pay your maintenance fee and taxes in full, as early as October 15, 2009, and receive two valuable certificates: 50% off your special Owner rate at Starwood Vacation Ownership resorts; and 50% off retail rates at participating Starwood hotels and resorts."
> 
> And the kicker... Due date: January 4, 2010. This when SVR maintenance fees used to be due throughout the year based on your ownership week. Last year my Wk 41 was due in July.
> 
> -tim



You think paying at the start of the current year is bad.  Wyndham charges a full year in advance.  You pay 2011 fees in Jan 2010 then are billed an adjustment in December when the POA sets their rates.  And if you want to revert to weeks, you have to pay the next years POA fee and hope they are still in business to pay them to the POA when they come due.


----------



## nodge

naka4 said:


> I had the same question. Emailed Starwood and was told because of confidentiality reasons, I could not get information on the winners or whether anyone won.
> 
> Pretty shady if you ask me.



I was finally told the same thing in writing by SVO Management:

_Dear [nodge], 

Thank you for contacting Association Management. 

The winners of the "pay early, win big, win now" sweepstakes were contacted personally so they may claim their prizes. The information was not publicly released to protect the identity and privacy of our owners. 

If you have any other questions please feel free to contact Association Management at 1-800-729-8246. 

Sincerely, 

[named redacted] 
SVO Management Inc._

What is ironic about all of this is that on the same day I got this message, I got an email newsletter from SVO that said . . . . .

_"Congratulations 

Congratulations to the first batch of Thanks-a-Million Vacation Giveaway winners. The following Owners have each won a seven-night stay at the Starwood Vacation Ownership resort of their choice: 

Karen Lee Gladney, Colorado 
Karl Swanke, Vermont 
Frederick Cole, Washington 
Christopher Schaefer, California 
Nora Klein, Virginia 
James Veitengruber, Washington 
Terry Genereaux, Ontario, Canada 

To learn how you can enter to win a complimentary week-long vacation as well as the Grand Prize of 1,000,000 Starpoints® from the Starwood Preferred Guest® program, please visit the Thanks-a-Million Vacation Giveaway."_

 . . . so SVO is protecting the ID's of the "win early, win big, win now" winners, but not the "Thanks-a-Million" winners.

Did ANYONE here win a prize in the "win early, win big, win now" contest?  

Otherwise, I guess we throw yet another thing onto the "blind faith and trust in SVO" pile.

-nodge

NOTE TO SVO:  If you really didn't give any prizes away with the "win early, win big, win now" contest, why not at least make the non-prizes bigger?  I'd much rather not win a new car than not win a week in a timeshare.  -n


----------



## naka4

I thought the same thing when I read that notice! Again, the whole thing seems really shady to me and you bet I won't fall for it again!


----------



## nodge

nodge said:


> I was finally told the same thing in writing by SVO Management:
> 
> _Dear [nodge],
> 
> Thank you for contacting Association Management.
> 
> The winners of the "pay early, win big, win now" sweepstakes were contacted personally so they may claim their prizes. The information was not publicly released to protect the identity and privacy of our owners.
> 
> If you have any other questions please feel free to contact Association Management at 1-800-729-8246.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> [named redacted]
> SVO Management Inc._
> 
> What is ironic about all of this is that on the same day I got this message, I got an email newsletter from SVO that said . . . . .
> 
> _"Congratulations
> 
> Congratulations to the first batch of Thanks-a-Million Vacation Giveaway winners. The following Owners have each won a seven-night stay at the Starwood Vacation Ownership resort of their choice:
> 
> Karen Lee Gladney, Colorado
> Karl Swanke, Vermont
> Frederick Cole, Washington
> Christopher Schaefer, California
> Nora Klein, Virginia
> James Veitengruber, Washington
> Terry Genereaux, Ontario, Canada
> 
> To learn how you can enter to win a complimentary week-long vacation as well as the Grand Prize of 1,000,000 Starpoints® from the Starwood Preferred Guest® program, please visit the Thanks-a-Million Vacation Giveaway."_
> 
> . . . so SVO is protecting the ID's of the "win early, win big, win now" winners, but not the "Thanks-a-Million" winners.
> 
> Did ANYONE here win a prize in the "win early, win big, win now" contest?
> 
> Otherwise, I guess we throw yet another thing onto the "blind faith and trust in SVO" pile.
> 
> -nodge



Hold the phone!  Over the past month I've emailed or used the mailbox on mystarcentral to send several requests to SVO asking for the list of winners for the "win early, win big, win now" contest.  Most went unanswered except the one I posted above.   Then today, out of the blue, I got this written answer from SVO to a separate message I sent earlier asking the same thing . . . .:

_Dear [nodge, you handsome devil you], 

Thank you for contacting Starwood Vacation Ownership. 

We sincerely apologize for any confusion. We have yet to determine the "Pay Early, Win Big" winners from the third drawing. Once these winners accept the prize, all of the winners from all three drawings will be posted online. Unfortunately we do not have a timeframe for this to be completed. 

[...]


Should you need further assistance, please contact Owner Services at: 

Sheraton 888-SV-OWNER (786-9637) 
407- 903-4649 

The hours of operation for Owner Services are Monday through Friday, 9 a.m. to 9 p.m., and Saturday and Sunday, 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. Eastern Time. Have a pleasant day. 

Sincerely, 
[name redacted]
E-Communications Specialist 
Owner Services_" (emphasis added).

So there you go . . . according to SVO's very own words . . . . everyone who won already knows they won and SVO is just protecting their ID's by not giving out that info . . . AND . . . SVO hasn't actually held the last drawing yet so not everyone knows if they won, and SVO isn't sure when it is going to draw those last names.  But when it does, it will publish all the winners' names at that unknowable time--to hell with their privacy.

Any questions?

-nodge

I can't wait for the responses I'll get to my remaining 3 unanswered requests seeking this information.


----------



## Fredm

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## gregb

*WKORVN MF increase analyzed*

I have finally gotten some time to put the info from the WKORVN budget into a spreadsheet and do some analysis.  This has shed some interesting light on the increase in MF at WKORVN.

First off, I want to say that I am working off of the glossy explanation sheet that accompanied the budget and MF bill.  It lists many of the increases and decreases in costs that are reflected in the 2010 budget and the 2010 MF.

The good news is that Starwood and the HOA have managed to reduce expenses at the resort in several areas, resulting in a total savings of $153.67 in those areas compared to 2009 expenses.     This comes from two major sources.  Reduced utilities costs ($90.70, the co-generation plant gets the credit for much of this) and reduced labor costs ($54.74).  It seems that with the downturn in the economy they are able to find local people to work at the resort.  In previous years the labor pool was so short they had to import workers, which cost more than the locals. 

The bad news is that increases swamped these savings, so many people may not have realized or appreciated the efforts that Starwood and the HOA made to keep costs under control.

The majority of the increase in MF comes from items that Starwood is not able to control.  They include the increased Ad Valorem (property) tax, increased Exise Tax, and owners not paying their Maintenance Fees.  There was also a deficit in the 2009 budget that had to be made up for in the 2010 MF.  Much of the 2009 deficit (about $80) is due to the increased property tax that was not budgeted.  

If, for the sake of comparison, you set aside the uncontrollable increases included in the 2010 MF and then compare the 2009 MF to the 2010 MF, you may be surprised to learn that Starwood and the HOA have effected an overall savings from 2009 of $76.52.  Yes, that is right, if the taxes didn't go up, and if owners paid their MF on time, and if the 2009 budget shortfall had actually been paid in the 2009 MF instead of the 2010 MF, your MF for 2010 would be $76.52 SMALLER than what your bill for 2009 should have been.  

So how did I arrive at that startling conclusion?  Well here is a quick peak at the figures.


  $15.00  -  Increased Exise tax
$307.63  -  Increased Property Tax
$215.77  -  Reserve for noncollectable accounts (delinquent MF)
$ 82.75  -  Prior year tax deficit (1/2 year at increased tax rate)
$621.16  -  Total increase due to taxes and delinquent MF

My actual bill increased $617.83 from 1,861.77 to $2479.60.

If the deficit from 2009 that is billed in 2010 ($36.50) is added to the 2009 MF ($1,898.37) and subtracted from the 2010 MF ($1821.85), then you end up with your controllable 2010 MF actually being $76.52 less than what your 2009 bill should have been.  

If someone wants to tell me how, I will be glad to post the spreadsheet that shows all this.

So my whole point in posting this is that after doing this analysis, I feel that Starwood and the HOA have been doing a good job in trying to control costs at my resort.

OK, have at it.

Greg


----------



## tschwa2

As an owner of a Starwood managed resort (SBP) and non Starwood manged resorts, I don't think you can give Starwood a pass on the delinquent and non collectible accounts.  Most resorts are dealing with it but Starwood is not dealing with it well.  Maybe I'm wrong but I thought part of the job of managing a resort is making sure that fees are paid.  Starwood and the HOA's need to come up with a plan because passing the cost onto the other owner's who get no benefit from paying for other people's delinquent fees until they too get tired of it and walk away is not working.  :annoyed:


----------



## okwiater

I think that Starwood should credit owners with extra Staroptions in an amount that proportionally reflects the amount of MF that is attributable to other owners' delinquencies. Since owners who don't pay their MF don't get use of their resort, it stands to reason that these extra Staroptions are available, and they SHOULD be distributed to other owners who are carrying the property for the deadbeats.


----------



## DeniseM

okwiater said:


> I think that Starwood should credit owners with extra Staroptions in an amount that proportionally reflects the amount of MF that is attributable to other owners' delinquencies.



GREAT idea!


----------



## DanCali

okwiater said:


> I think that Starwood should credit owners with extra Staroptions in an amount that proportionally reflects the amount of MF that is attributable to other owners' delinquencies. Since owners who don't pay their MF don't get use of their resort, it stands to reason that these extra Staroptions are available, and they SHOULD be distributed to other owners who are carrying the property for the deadbeats.



Well, they can't do that if they are renting the VOIs to cover delinquencies because those weeks get used up inthe system. 

Now, where all that money goes and how much is left to cover the delinquent account after all the accounting wizardry is where transparency lacks bigtime.


----------



## James1975NY

okwiater said:


> I think that Starwood should credit owners with extra Staroptions in an amount that proportionally reflects the amount of MF that is attributable to other owners' delinquencies. Since owners who don't pay their MF don't get use of their resort, it stands to reason that these extra Staroptions are available, and they SHOULD be distributed to other owners who are carrying the property for the deadbeats.



The problem with this scenario is that if SVO were to hand out usage proportionate to the additional maintenance fees you pay to cover delinquencies, SVO would not be able to rent the unit out and use some of the money towards the debt. Ultimately that would mean that SVO would need to collect more from each owner as their would be $0.00 lock-out rental relief contributed to the HOA. Further, the delinquent owner would have to be an SVN member for SVO to shell out their SO's.


----------



## okwiater

So how much lock-off rental relief is there in the budget? Is it as high as I would think it needs to be to justify the MF increases most people have been seeing?


----------



## James1975NY

okwiater said:


> So how much lock-off rental relief is there in the budget? Is it as high as I would think it needs to be to justify the MF increases most people have been seeing?



Someone may have the information but the bottom line is that if there was no contribution from lock-out rentals back to the HOA, the owners would have to pay 100% of delinquent units.


----------



## gregb

It may be that some resorts have been having a delinquent owners problem for some years, but that does not appear to be the case for WKROVN.  I don't know what the delinquency was for 2008, but I believe it was quite low.  In 2009 it started to go up.  We have not been told what it is in 2010.  If I understood the explanation correctly, the part of the reserves put into the budget for 2010 delinquencies divided by the annual unit MF, yields around 1167 unit-weeks delinquent out of 12416 total unit-weeks, or about 8.7% delinquency.  That was put into the budget when it was created in 2009, so it was an estimate.  Now that we are almost through March, they should have a good idea what the delinquency rate really is for 2010.  Time to ask them.

I think it is unfair to state that the HOA is not doing anything about the delinquencies.  When I talked to Gregg Lundburg, resort manager, in February he said that the HOA is working to collect the MF from delinquent owners, and that they are working on reducing the property taxes.  As has been discussed, if the MF are delinquent, the owner cannot reserve or use their unit.  Foreclosure is another option, but not a very pretty one, and even less attractive if the owner has a primary mortgage on the unit.  So what other avenues does the HOA actually have?

I agree that more information from Starwood and the HOA would be very helpful.  But the lack of communication from them does not mean they are doing nothing.

Greg


----------



## jerseygirl

When I attended one of the Board Meetings, I asked a lot of questions about renting delinquent units.  The answers were, unfortunately, less than satisfactory.  It didn't seem if there was a true plan in place (and this is for one of the resorts with more demand than supply).

I was told:

-- They do attempt to rent delinquent owner weeks
-- Owners can show up for a reservation with a check in hand and they will be allowed in

The above two statements can't both be true (to some extent -- maybe -- but clearly there's an inconsistency as well).  

I was also told that owners aren't "locked out" until maintenance fees are 90 days past due.  So, it's quite easy for someone to use a unit in the first quarter and get away with not paying the fees.

Several people here on TUG have reported being able to deposit next year's usage without pre-paying maintenance fees.  That may have been "owner friendly," but it's not good business in this economy.  There was a recent report here on TUG that the policy was being changed to ensure estimated fees are collected in advance, but I haven't seen that independently verified by Starwood or by anyone who has tried to deposit.  As I understand it, the rules were different (perhaps as set by the HOAs) for different resorts so until Starwood announces a formal policy change, I'm a little afraid that this might still be occuring.  

I know all don't agree with me, but I think the liberal cancellation policy probably hurts the rental income potential.  There's a much greater chance of another owner using time, or being able to rent it, if last-minute cancellations weren't being rewarded with a penalty-free II week.  As I've stated in the past -- there might come a day when I too am happy about this policy, but I don't think it's beneficial to the ownership at large.

I suspect Starwood and the HOAs did not have their eyes on the ball in 2009.  The Starwood representative present at the meeting admitted that they didn't see the delinquencies coming.    (Was that a rookie error  -- the first real down economy they've had to deal with in this segment of the hospitality business?)  Unfortunately, that lack of attention ... lack of a real plan .... cost owners a significant amount of money for this year.  Hopefully, there's been enough owner concern about increased maintenance fees to ensure that things will be better this year on the collection and rental front.

Ultimately, one has to believe that the extremely high maintenance fees are hurting developer sales -- maybe not as much as they're hurting resales -- but they certainly can't be helping.  Higher maintenance fees means higher management fees for Starwood -- but also lower sales.  Which one do we think is more important to them from a financial standpoint?


----------



## DanCali

gregb said:


> I think it is unfair to state that the HOA is not doing anything about the delinquencies.  When I talked to Gregg Lundburg, resort manager, in February he said that the HOA is working to collect the MF from delinquent owners, and that they are working on reducing the property taxes.  As has been discussed, if the MF are delinquent, the owner cannot reserve or use their unit.  Foreclosure is another option, but not a very pretty one, and even less attractive if the owner has a primary mortgage on the unit.  So what other avenues does the HOA actually have?



1167 weeks * $2000 is a lot of money...

My uninformed best guess is that if the HOA put the weeks up for rent to existing owners just to cover MFs, the HOA would be better off than letting Starwood do the rentals for them. All it takes is a website and 1-2 people to operate it and take care of reservations. Heck, if the HOA gave me 10% of the recovered funds I'd do it myself (better than a 50% commission to Starwood)!

Does anyone even have a remote clue how many cents on the dollar they are collecting from Starwood for the delinquent accounts???


----------



## jerseygirl

DanCali said:


> My uninformed best guess is that if the HOA put the weeks up for rent to existing owners just to cover MFs, the HOA would be better off than letting Starwood do the rentals for them. All it takes is a website and 1-2 people to operate it and take care of reservations. Heck, if the HOA gave me 10% of the recovered funds I'd do it myself (better than a 50% commission to Starwood)



Dan -- I suggested the very same thing at the board meeting I attended.   I was somewhat relieved when one of the board members spoke up and said they were having a supplemental meeting to discuss various options.  Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find out what, if anything, was decided at that supplemental meeting (I'm still trying).  It's not in Starwood's best interest to promote such a plan -- which is why it's critical that we have INDEPENDENT boards that can see past Starwood's recommendation and do what's best for the owners at large.

I told them I didn't think an owner rental plan would necessarily be effective in areas with excess supply (e.g., Orlando) or a high percentage of off-season weeks (e.g., Myrtle Beach, Phoenix).  But, I thought it had a great chance of success at resorts where network demand exceeds supply (e.g., HRA, WSJ, WKORV/N).


----------



## vss

*Sheraton Vistana Villages - Bella*

Folks, A question on Maintenance Fees at the SVV Bella: the 1 BR premium Villa is 882 sq ft and the regular 1BR Villa is 488 sq ft.  The MF appears to be the same for both 1BRs at:

Sheraton Vistana Villages - Bella (1 bdm.) - $596.91 

Can you pls confirm if this is correct?  Thanks a lot.


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## GeneNWendy

I found out that while it is true that Starwood may try and rent out delinquent weeks, they come last in the order of priorities.  The first ones to be rented out are from owners who are up-to-date in maintenance and decided to convert their week to Starpoints.  The next ones along the same premise are people exchanging their week to stay at another Starwood resort using StarOptions.  Finally, delinquent weeks are rented out.  However, I understand that no delinquent weeks have been rented out at WSJ this past year.  Apparently Starwood has concerns about the legality of renting out somebody's deeded unit without actually having their permission.




jerseygirl said:


> When I attended one of the Board Meetings, I asked a lot of questions about renting delinquent units.  The answers were, unfortunately, less than satisfactory.  It didn't seem if there was a true plan in place (and this is for one of the resorts with more demand than supply).
> 
> I was told:
> 
> -- They do attempt to rent delinquent owner weeks
> -- Owners can show up for a reservation with a check in hand and they will be allowed in
> 
> The above two statements can't both be true (to some extent -- maybe -- but clearly there's an inconsistency as well).
> 
> I was also told that owners aren't "locked out" until maintenance fees are 90 days past due.  So, it's quite easy for someone to use a unit in the first quarter and get away with not paying the fees.
> 
> Several people here on TUG have reported being able to deposit next year's usage without pre-paying maintenance fees.  That may have been "owner friendly," but it's not good business in this economy.  There was a recent report here on TUG that the policy was being changed to ensure estimated fees are collected in advance, but I haven't seen that independently verified by Starwood or by anyone who has tried to deposit.  As I understand it, the rules were different (perhaps as set by the HOAs) for different resorts so until Starwood announces a formal policy change, I'm a little afraid that this might still be occuring.
> 
> I know all don't agree with me, but I think the liberal cancellation policy probably hurts the rental income potential.  There's a much greater chance of another owner using time, or being able to rent it, if last-minute cancellations weren't being rewarded with a penalty-free II week.  As I've stated in the past -- there might come a day when I too am happy about this policy, but I don't think it's beneficial to the ownership at large.
> 
> I suspect Starwood and the HOAs did not have their eyes on the ball in 2009.  The Starwood representative present at the meeting admitted that they didn't see the delinquencies coming.    (Was that a rookie error  -- the first real down economy they've had to deal with in this segment of the hospitality business?)  Unfortunately, that lack of attention ... lack of a real plan .... cost owners a significant amount of money for this year.  Hopefully, there's been enough owner concern about increased maintenance fees to ensure that things will be better this year on the collection and rental front.
> 
> Ultimately, one has to believe that the extremely high maintenance fees are hurting developer sales -- maybe not as much as they're hurting resales -- but they certainly can't be helping.  Higher maintenance fees means higher management fees for Starwood -- but also lower sales.  Which one do we think is more important to them from a financial standpoint?


----------



## jerseygirl

Gene -- Can you clarify your #2 source above?  How could Starwood rent a week that has been exchanged for StarOptions?


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## DavidnRobin

I believe Gene means that when someone uses their WSJ SOs to exchange into another SVN resort (e.g. HRA) - then their WSJ VOI is open to rent.  However, these open VOIs should be available to WSJ Owner exchanges at 10-months out, and then SVN exchanges at 8-months out.  The question is whether they make these available to Owners or SVN - or choose to rent w/o opening them up for exchanges.  Again, it is difficult to know because of the lack of SVO/WSJ transparency (...broken record...).

And... as they own ~10% of VOIs of WSJ-VG (is this correct?) - I assume they rent their VOIs first before anyones.


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## jarta

When Staroptions are used to go elsewhere, perhaps establishing *when* the first rental takes place would be helpful.

BTW, I thought most St. John owners stayed at home: First, because it's so nice: Second because, until recently, the Staroptions didn't even match up for trading.   ...   eom


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## jarta

David,   ...   "The question is whether they make these available to Owners or SVN - or choose to rent w/o opening them up for exchanges."

All I can add is that I made 2 separate 3-br Staroption trades into St. John this year.  One, in 2 weeks; the other in late September.  My experience seems to indicate that the units are made available to other SVN owners for Staroption trades.  There just don't seem to be that many of them that open up.   ...   eom


----------



## jerseygirl

I can't believe I agree with Jarta ... but I think Gene's #2 is incorrect ... which is why I asked the question.  Once an owner chooses to convert his/her week to StarOptions, the week is made available to other SVN members to book with their StarOptions.  Despite the many failings of Starwood, I haven't seen/read evidence to prove otherwise (but would certainly love to hear/read about it if exists).

I completely agree with Gene's #1 and I think we, as owners, should be demanding an accounting/full transparency of this practice at all our resorts.  I think it explains why "prime weeks" are never available at 10 months for HRA and WSJ who wish to float within their seasons (and, Jarta, neither of the weeks you obtained via SVN would be considered "prime," which I define for these purposes as holidays and when kids are out of school -- those that are traditionally hard to trade into at HRA and WSJ via the SVN system).

 ............ just trying to avoid misinformation about the rental practices -- they're bad enough "as is" without making them seem worse that they are!


----------



## James1975NY

GeneNWendy said:


> I found out that while it is true that Starwood may try and rent out delinquent weeks, they come last in the order of priorities.  The first ones to be rented out are from owners who are up-to-date in maintenance and decided to convert their week to Starpoints.  The next ones along the same premise are people exchanging their week to stay at another Starwood resort using StarOptions.  Finally, delinquent weeks are rented out.  However, I understand that no delinquent weeks have been rented out at WSJ this past year.  Apparently Starwood has concerns about the legality of renting out somebody's deeded unit without actually having their permission.



Starwood does not rent out units that have been used as StarOptions.

I can assure you, Starwood is not concerned with the legality of renting out an owner's week if they are delinquent. There is verbiage in the condo documents that allows for this..


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## DavidnRobin

I didn't say what Gene said for point #2 was true - just that there is no transparency to know otherwise.  Plus, how many WSJ VOIs have been attained via SVN for prime weeks (which for WSJ is ~Jan to ~Mar, and not summertime) reported here? Lots of Sept/Oct openings - which is ultra low season.

There are Owners who exchange out of WSJ via SVN - probably more now that they increased the SOs (ours went from 67.1K to 81K).  There are probably even Owners that have converted SOs to SPs which is an extremely bad deal for WSJ-VG (we would get only 22K SPs for each week - a truly awful conversion).

What I have always found odd is the amount of villas that are empty during our stay in June.  While June is low season - it still has demand (less than earlier in the year, but greater than Sept/Oct) - yet villas sit empty - or are used only for a few days by... guess who?   RENTERS and SPG users from the hotel section!!!???  So they are getting rented out by WSJ/SVO - the question is where are these unused VOIs coming from?  Don't know - why?  again, because there is no transparency.  Meaning... that somewhere/somehow these villas are available, but not getting used by SVN exchangers which should have first dibs at 8 months out.  So... it is difficult to know if this is on the level by SVO/WSJ - OR - that VOIs are getting mixed into the rental pool WITHOUT compensation to the HOA (which is evident when looking at the MF bills).

Why do I think this...?  because when I am sitting around the pool talking to people - there are two types of visitors - Owners and Renters (via Hotel or SPG) - and not a single SVN exchanger.  Over 4 years now and not one SVN exchanger - seems odd... maybe SVN exchangers do not use the pool? LOL


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## jerseygirl

Although traditionally winter is the higher season (and is reflected in SO values as set by Starwood, a hotel-company), when you bring timeshares into the mix, you bring families who need school vacation periods.  It's especially true at HRA, and fairly true as WSJ as indicated by availability and prices on SPG.com:

Summer Rentals of WSJ Villas --

No Sat-to-Sat availability for weeks beginning June 12, 19, 26 and July 3rd
7-10 - 7-17..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
7-17 - 7-24..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
7-24 - 7-31..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
7-24 - 7-31..........1-BR / 2-Bath Villa $11620
7-31 - 8-7............3-BR / 3-Bath Villa $15778
7-31 - 8-7............2-BR / 2-Bath Villa  $13510
8-7 - 8-14............3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
8-7 - 8-14............2-BR / 3-Bath Villa $15022

Compare this to February availability and rental prices:

2-05 - 2-12..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $12376
2-05 - 2-12..........2-BR / 2- Bath Villa  $12376
2-05 - 2-12..........2-BR / 3-Bath Villa  $12376
2-12 - 2-19..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $12970
2-12 - 2-19..........2-BR / 2- Bath Villa  $12970
2-12 - 2-19..........2-BR / 3-Bath Villa  $12970

Then, we have a school holiday (President's Day) and the prices jump:

2-19 - 2-26.....All Villa Sizes (1-BR/2-Baths, 2-BR/2-Baths, 2-BR/3-Baths, 3-BR/3-Baths) $16534 .... Some Villas with strange descriptions available for $15400.

Bottom line -- "Prime Summer" is a more expensive rental than "Traditional Prime," except for President's Week.

David -- I don't doubt your experience in meeting a lot of renters at the pool.  Mine is not the same, however ... the vast majority of "villa people" I've met are owners.

Again, my only interest in this argument is clarifying Gene's statement that Starwood "rents" weeks converted to SOs.  I have yet to see evidence that this is true.

I also agree that there is probably more incentive to convert now that the SO values were increased --- but I would still never give up mine!


----------



## jarta

jerseygirl,   ...   "and, Jarta, neither of the weeks you obtained via SVN would be considered "prime," which I define for these purposes as holidays and when kids are out of school"

Sorry that you turn up your nose at the two weeks of 3-br St. John units I reserved.  I really don't care.  I don't need what you call "prime" weeks.  My kids are all grown.  I'm not tied to a school schedule.  My businesses are under control so I can leave anytime.  I just need a place in the warm sun from time to time with good friends.  (But, any place over 70 degrees is "prime" to me when Chicago is suffering through Winter.  lol!)

Plus, gotta spend all those Staroptions somewhere!  Why not St. John April 9-16?  If I like it, I might keep the late September "hurricane" season reservation.  If not, I guess I now know you wouldn't want the 3-br for a week.

All I ever said in respone to an allegation that they were rented and not made available at all is that they were two 3-br weeks that I found were available for Staroption trades.  So, I grabbed 'em.  I never crowed that they were "primo."  

Have you ever stayed in a 3-br at St. John?  Are they really that nice in both phases?   ...   eom


----------



## jerseygirl

I know you didn't make that claim -- it was a preemtive strike.  Glad you're acknowledging they're not "prime" weeks.  Many years, April 9th would be "prime prime," but this year it's one week past "prime."

And, no -- I'm not sticking my nose up at either reservation.  Any week in St John beats a week in Chicago.  I was there last October (on an II exchange) and it was lovely.  I'm getting my fix this year with a 2-week stay in June -- using my phase 2 unit for the first time ... not sure I will like it as much as phase 1 but we'll see.  Maybe the location will make up for the lack of a private pool.   

And, yes -- I've been in the 3-BR pool villa (I own one).  As far as the new phase is concerned, I liked the 2-BR loft floor plan best (priced higher than the 3-BR, IIRC, but like with views in Maui, Starwood screwed up on the StarOption allocation and classifies it the same as the regular 2-BR).  

You'll have to make your own mind up about whether it's as nice as some people say -- it's not for everyone -- and it's not about the villa.  Some find it boring .... it's a personal preference .... we think it's paradise.


----------



## davo

*SVO Challenge HI taxes*

One of the reasons cited for the increase maintenance fees at KVOR was due to a substantial increase in property tax.  There were indications that SVO was taking action to challenge the increase.  

I've thumbed through the posts and haven't found any recent information on this.  Do any of you know of any progress on this subject?

Thanks


----------



## GeneNWendy

*Renting a week converted through StarOptions*



jerseygirl said:


> Gene -- Can you clarify your #2 source above?  How could Starwood rent a week that has been exchanged for StarOptions?




Hi JerseyGirl.  Last year (2009), I used StarOptions to exchange my Spring week at WSJ for a week in June at the Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Villas in Maui.  Once that week in Maui was confirmed, it opened up my Spring week for SVO to rent it out or accomodate somebody who wanted WSJ from another Starwood resort.  Obviously, if nobody from another resort uses my free week, it leaves it open for SVO to try and rent it out.  It's not much different from my number 1 (forgoing your week for Starpoints).  The bottom line is that Starwood claims that these weeks take priority over rentals of units of owners who haven't paid their MF's.  BTW, there are a lot of things I don't believe are true with respect to Starwood.  I know an owner who has a one-month ownership in a pool villa.  She left after 3 weeks for personal reasons.  However, some of her friends in other nearby villas noticed that Starwood rented out her 4th week without her permission.  They were clearly going to pocket the money for this rental, but they got caught in the act.

I don't trust Starwood as far as a stone you could throw.


----------



## GeneNWendy

jerseygirl said:


> Although traditionally winter is the higher season (and is reflected in SO values as set by Starwood, a hotel-company), when you bring timeshares into the mix, you bring families who need school vacation periods.  It's especially true at HRA, and fairly true as WSJ as indicated by availability and prices on SPG.com:
> 
> Summer Rentals of WSJ Villas --
> 
> No Sat-to-Sat availability for weeks beginning June 12, 19, 26 and July 3rd
> 7-10 - 7-17..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
> 7-17 - 7-24..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
> 7-24 - 7-31..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
> 7-24 - 7-31..........1-BR / 2-Bath Villa $11620
> 7-31 - 8-7............3-BR / 3-Bath Villa $15778
> 7-31 - 8-7............2-BR / 2-Bath Villa  $13510
> 8-7 - 8-14............3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
> 8-7 - 8-14............2-BR / 3-Bath Villa $15022
> 
> Compare this to February availability and rental prices:
> 
> 2-05 - 2-12..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $12376
> 2-05 - 2-12..........2-BR / 2- Bath Villa  $12376
> 2-05 - 2-12..........2-BR / 3-Bath Villa  $12376
> 2-12 - 2-19..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $12970
> 2-12 - 2-19..........2-BR / 2- Bath Villa  $12970
> 2-12 - 2-19..........2-BR / 3-Bath Villa  $12970
> 
> Then, we have a school holiday (President's Day) and the prices jump:
> 
> 2-19 - 2-26.....All Villa Sizes (1-BR/2-Baths, 2-BR/2-Baths, 2-BR/3-Baths, 3-BR/3-Baths) $16534 .... Some Villas with strange descriptions available for $15400.
> 
> Bottom line -- "Prime Summer" is a more expensive rental than "Traditional Prime," except for President's Week.
> 
> David -- I don't doubt your experience in meeting a lot of renters at the pool.  Mine is not the same, however ... the vast majority of "villa people" I've met are owners.
> 
> Again, my only interest in this argument is clarifying Gene's statement that Starwood "rents" weeks converted to SOs.  I have yet to see evidence that this is true.
> 
> I also agree that there is probably more incentive to convert now that the SO values were increased --- but I would still never give up mine!



Are these amounts that people can rent weeks out for?  I must being doing something wrong.


----------



## jerseygirl

No -- these were full retail prices via SPG.com on that specific date.  An owner wouldn't get anywhere near these prices, unfortunately, or we could all pay for our weeks in 2 years!


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## DeniseM

jerseygirl said:


> No -- these were full retail prices via SPG.com on that specific date.  An owner wouldn't get anywhere near these prices, unfortunately, or we could all pay for our weeks in 2 years!



jerseygirl, are you sure???  When I bought my timeshare, the salesman showed me those rates and told me I could rent my TS for that amount and make a big profit!


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> jerseygirl, are you sure???  When I bought my timeshare, the salesman showed me those rates and told me I could rent my TS for that amount and make a big profit!



The salesperson lied to you - oops... I mean that you must not be practiced in the 'art of listening'


----------



## DeniseM

DavidnRobin said:


> The salesperson lied to you - oops... I mean that you must not be practiced in the 'art of listening'



Huh?  What'd you say?????


----------



## vistana101

I just did the calculations for my unit, 40% increase at SVV Bella from 2008.


----------



## nodge

*"Pay Early. Win Big.  Win Now" quest for winners' list update*

Hey Gang, 

I thought I’d update everyone on my quest to find out who, if anyone, won anything with SVO’s “Pay Early. Win Big. Win Now” sweepstakes.  

In response to my latest request from SVO for this information, I got this response:


_Dear [nodge, you handsome devil you], 

Thank you for contacting Association Management. 

As previously stated, Starwood Vacation Ownership strives to protect the privacy of our owners. As a result we are unable to release the names of the sweepstakes winners. 

If you have any other questions regarding this matter please feel free to contact us back. 

Sincerely, 

[name redacted] 
SVO Management Inc._


So, I was able to track down a copy of the official rules for the sweepstakes, which is no small feat since SVO has removed all references to this sweepstakes from mystarcentral.com, yet still manages to keep as its most recent "company news" a story from June 2008.  

Rule 6 of the “official contest [sic] rules” provide a method for requesting written notice of the winner’s names, and it had a Feb 1, 2010 cutoff date for making that written request.  But, that rule also states that “*Confirmed Prizewinners’ names will also be posted on the Owner’s web site.*”  (emphasis added)

Armed with this info, I responded to SVO Management, Inc. over a week ago with the text of this rule.  So far no response.

Bonus Info From the Rules:

Also, while we were all cutting our checks early to pay our maintenance fees to qualify for this “sweepstakes” (which, according to the universally adopted consumer protection laws, this is because it relied on chance, instead of a “contest,” as erroneously labeled by SVO in its rules, which is defined as relying on skill), did anyone know that our early payment of our maintenance fees *WASN’T* a requirement for entering this sweepstakes?   It turns out that universally adopted sweepstakes laws here in the good ol’ U.S.of A require sweepstakes promoters to provide a “no purchase necessary” alternative method of entry.  

SVO apparently knew this because it indeed had such an alternative entry method in place for us.  It just never bothered to tell us about it directly in its materials promoting the sweepstakes.  Instead, SVO placed the description of this alternative entry method in the boilerplate rules.  Those rules were only accessible to us by clicking on a hyperlink placed at the bottom of the on-line promotion.

So what you say?  Well this is what.  

It turns out that, at least here in Oregon and probably in every other state too if someone were to actually look, the consumer protection law *REQUIRES* that the “no purchase necessary” method of entry be set forth in a “clear and conspicuous” manner.  It even goes so far as to say that “reference to the material terms, conditions and limitations of the offer *by use of a hyperlink *or only disclosing them during the checkout process is *not clear and conspicuous*.”  (emphasis added).

So there you go.  More evidence, as if we need any, to document SVO managements’ utter contempt for us owners and the laws aimed at protecting us.

On the plus side, we should all have plenty of time to purchase 3”x 5” cards to mail to SVO for the alternative entry into this year’s pre-pay sweepstakes. This will allow us to pay our maintenance fees when they are due while still “losing” the sweepstakes, instead of just not entering it.

-nodge


----------



## jerseygirl

Hey handsome devil ... please don't tell me you actually believe there are weekly winners?  I thought you were smarter than that! :hysterical:

But, since you've so diligently researched the rules, I would think a well crafted letter to the General Counsel (public information) is in order.  And, if you can prove you sent your first request prior to the Feb 1 deadline, that's even better!   

I've never even received my 50% off certificates (or whatever they were).  I sent one "mystarcentral" inquiry ... but we all know one "mystarcentral" inquiry never works and I didn't care enough to send the four (or is it five) required follow-up inquiries!

Now -- having said all this mean stuff about the "mystarcentral" people, I think it's only fair that I praise Starwood (don't fall over people) for the excellent and courteous service I received this week when I contacted an executive directly.  It's a shame one has to do that though -- can you imagine what it would be like if 150K (?) owners all started contacting executives directly due to the non (or nonsensical) responses we receive (or don't receive) from mystarcentral?


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## gregb

I recently received the audited financial reports for WKORVN for 2008 and 2009.  Germain to this thread, it appears that the letter and contest asking folks to pay their maintenance fees early really worked.  It appears that there was about a 10 fold increase in the maintenance fees paid early.

Greg


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## nodge

SVO Management Inc's message to nodge. said:


> Dear [nodge, you handsome devil you],
> 
> Thank you for contacting Association Management. As per your request, below are the names of the prize winners for the "pay early, win big, win now" sweepstakes. This information will also be posted on the website very shortly.
> 
> PAY EARLY. WIN BIG. WIN NOW.
> PRIZEWINNERS
> 
> Drawing #1
> Christine Gerichten 100,000 Starwood Preferred Guest® Starpoints®
> Mark Lubin 50,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
> Barbara Montaruli 25,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
> James Mohr 10,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
> Michael Garvey 5,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
> William Talkington Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin St. John Resort & Villas, USVI
> Paul Hess Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas, Lahaina, HI
> Dan Christy Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Princeville Ocean Resort, Princeville, HI
> Karen Ventrell Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Lagunamar Ocean Resort, Cancun, Mexico
> Marjorie Dunkiel Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Sheraton Vistana Villages, Orlando, FL
> 
> Drawing #2
> Gregory Schroeder 100,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
> Linda Duffy 50,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
> Richard Allen Loop 25,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
> James Duncan 10,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
> Joyce E. Allegro 5,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
> John Ratico, Jr Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin St. John Resort & Villas, USVI
> Thomas Kellerman, Sr. Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas, Lahaina, HI
> Jerome C. Cohan Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Princeville Ocean Resort, Princeville, HI
> Michael D. Harding Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Lagunamar Ocean Resort, Cancun, Mexico
> John Caley Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Sheraton Vistana Villages, Orlando, FL
> 
> Drawing #3
> Ricardo Larraburel 100,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
> Stephan Yannoni 50,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
> Timothy Case 25,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
> Mary Abbenante 10,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
> Harold Abbott 5,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
> John Ackelson Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin St. John Resort & Villas, USVI
> Dennis Schneider Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas, Lahaina, HI
> Harland Kraft Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Princeville Ocean Resort, Princeville, HI
> Patricia Barron Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Lagunamar Ocean Resort, Cancun, Mexico
> Hams Abbo Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Sheraton Vistana Villages, Orlando, FL
> 
> If you have any other questions please feel free to contact us back at 1-800-729-8246.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> [name redacted]
> SVO Management Inc.



Well I guess that whole "privacy" thing was just a big ol' pile of nothin' after all.  Does anyone know any of these winners?

Also, the same day I got this message, SPG credited my SPG account with 10,000 Starpoints.  I've got a call into SPG asking wassup with that.  I'm hoping SVO was so thankful that I pointed out the problems with its sweepstakes that it wanted to reward me with these points (yah right), but since the message next to those Starpoints says "SPG AX 1ST PURCHASE CONSMR (SW)," I'm thinking these free points will turn out to be a very bad thing considering I haven't applied for any new credit cards lately . . . ..

-nodge


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## jarta

From what Gregb says, at least at WKORV-N, it appears early collections of MF went up 10-fold 2008 to 2009.

Plus, contrary to speculation posted here, actual people won actual prizes.   I would think those are good things.    ...   eom


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## Fredm

gregb said:


> I recently received the audited financial reports for WKORVN for 2008 and 2009.  Germain to this thread, it appears that the letter and contest asking folks to pay their maintenance fees early really worked.  It appears that there was about a 10 fold increase in the maintenance fees paid early.
> 
> Greg



That's great! Certainly can't hurt to have cash flow sooner.
I assume Starwood was picking up the cost of the contest prizes awarded.


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## bankr63

*Cuts to Courts refurbishment*



jarta said:


> bulldogz,   ...   "wonder what they cut back from the refurbished cost?"
> 
> I had lunch yesterday with a member of the HOA Board I used to be on.  Ongoing major balcony restorations are being done on all the townhome units where I live.
> 
> The bids from contractors for this year's work are about 20% less than what had been bid per unit for the same balcony work last year.  The economy affects everyone.  Contractors need to keep their crews busy and are taking less money to do the same jobs.  3 years ago contractors were King - if you could even get them to bid on projects.
> 
> So, while I do not know for sure, it could be that the savings did not come from changes in the specifications which lower the quality of the finished product.  They may have come because the bids for the work came in lower than budgeted or expected.   ...  eom



I was wondering what was cut from the Courts refurbishment as well when we recieved notice of the reduction in fees back in January.  The total reduction to the SA was 26%, which is pretty significant.

With the May SA billing we have an answer:

"Planned expenditures were reduced by $1.7 million.  Kitchen appliances, previously included, will be replaced during their normal replacement cycle as these were recently replaced in the last few years.  Soundproofing in the townhome units and the replacement of the windows/sliding glass doors, and handrails & stringers throughout the property were eliminated from the project.  The modification to the refurbishment plan achieved a per week savings of $268 for villas and $402 for townhomes.  Refurbishment is scheduled to begin February 2011 and conclude by July 2011."

IMO the appliances are probably a good call - most of the appliances in our unit are in pretty good shape.  Not sure if soundproofing the townhomes was necessary - but you could ask a villa owner downstairs.  We had no noise problems through the walls, but often wonder if the villa owners can hear us walking above.  Handrails and stringers seem okay - I haven't noticed anyone falling through the collapsing stairs.  But I am gobsmacked about the sliding doors being cut - the one in our unit is an ancient aluminum door that doesn't lock.  There is a "nail-on-a-chain" drilled through the door frame that was installed to lock the door.  Seems kind of strange to have sophisticated mag locks on the front door, with no security at the back door.  

We are also greatly disappointed by the schedule delay (although I suspected as much this past March because Cascades seemed behind schedule).  Since we are there again in March this year we will be in the middle of reno's that should have been completed this summer, and suspect our unit won't be done (if they start at either end, we are in the middle).  We had kind of planned on having a stay in our reno'd unit once, as we are planning on trading out for the next couple of years after.  Looks like I won't get to see what I paid for now until 2014 or 2015. I guess that's just whinging tho...


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## RichardL

I read the court docket but could not learn what the most recent motions have been, nor if the matter is set for a trial date:  Why was a special attorney appointed?  Could you update us?


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## bulldogz

bankr63 said:


> Not sure if soundproofing the townhomes was necessary - but you could ask a villa owner downstairs.  We had no noise problems through the walls, but often wonder if the villa owners can hear us walking above.  ...



When I first saw the refurb cost and what it included, I was happy that they decided to soundproof the walls and floor.  I am disappointed about the soundproofing being removed from the cost. 

Wonder if any of the board members actually owned a bottom unit or actually stay in their villa. 

Although we own the above villa, I feel bad for the people downstairs..   half the time I can hear my self walking .. the floor just feels hallow?  And we have 3 young kids.

last year, we had an elderly couple staying below us. They called security the first night we arrived (we arrived about 10PM) and complained we made too much noise.  
And the last day the elderly gentleman came up on our last day and asked us if we could stop until he saw it was my 2 year daughter walking  and heard the 'thumping' as she walked by him. 

The side wall is not any better, I believed our neighour had some guests over visiting till about 10:30 to 11:00 one night and we can hear the laughter through the wall and their talking.  We didnt really mind, as everyone is entitle to have fun .. it's the summer   they were doing it inside the villa.

Just dissappointed that we were not invited     Just kidding.


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## K2Quick

Just bumping this to the top so I can compare 2011 MFs to 2010 MFs when they come in.


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## DeniseM

K2Quick said:


> Just bumping this to the top so I can compare 2011 MFs to 2010 MFs when they come in.



You don't have to bump it - it is linked in Owner Resources at the top of the page, under the Maintenance Fee heading.


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