# What is the value of VIP Status?



## readg1 (May 21, 2012)

I need some advice on the value of VIP status with Wyndham. I originally bought 115,00 points direct from Wyndham at La Cascada last year but when I came home and did some research here and other places I recinded my purchase in the alloted time. I then went to E-bay and bought 154,000 points re-sale for a few dollars and I love it! We just used some of those points at La Cascada last week. One of the member services staff was reviewing my file and said that my points are listed with Wyndham as "Not Re-Sale" which means they could be applied toward VIP status. After a long discussion/sales pitch, they convinced me to buy an additional 154,00 points from them for around $21,000 and gave me VIP status. Now, just like last year I am wondering if this is worth it or not. They said that VIP eligibility is going up to 400,000 points in October. They also said that Wyndham rarely makes the mistake of mis-coding the points status in their system and that this was a rare opportunity that I should take advantage of. I don't know if this is a common "mistake" or not. I have a few days to recind this new purchase. Has anyone else encountered this or have any advice for me? I don't know if VIP status is worth $21,000.


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## Ridewithme38 (May 21, 2012)

I like to talk about this benefit as IMO it is the most valuable for a regular VIP



> 25% Points Discount within 60 days of check in



If you are one of those late bookers that loves to search within 60 days of travel, you now effectively went from 308,000 points to 385,000 points, which basicly allows you an entire weeks stay off season or a couple of extra days at some resorts during high time...The great thing about this, Assuming your MF's are $5 per 1,000...You are saving yourself $385 a year in MF's but are getting the same vacations as those that bought resale and have MF's for all 385,000 points, $385 a year saved, 55 years to be even

I don't really think for 308,000 points you'll have any use for the 5 extra Guest Certificates or the Unlimited Housekeeping credits


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## tschwa2 (May 21, 2012)

Couldn't imagine regular VIP (not gold or platinum) being worth more than $3000 over a 10 year period. So in 70 years you may be ahead.  Also since your original 154,000 points were resale regardless of how they are currently marked, it means that during any kind of review or "owners update" they could take away your VIP status.  You should rescind.


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## jjmanthei05 (May 21, 2012)

The other thing to be careful of is did they offer you "Bonus Points" just to be nice? If they did they may be flat out lying to you. The bonus points are VIP eligible and so they could be covering up the fact that Wyndham didn't actually make a mistake on your resale points and you wont know it for 2 years let alone within the first 5-10 days. Either way $20,000 for VIP silver isn't worth it and I wouldn't count on Wyndham not ever finding their "mistake" if they even actually made one. Rescind today because you could have just paid 20,000 for no VIP benefits at all. 

Jason


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## bnoble (May 21, 2012)

Every time I've looked at the relative value of VIP vs. the extra cost to obtain it, the time horizon over which it pays back is way way too long vs. the risk that something will materially change in the program---even for equity swaps, PIC deals, etc.


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## readg1 (May 21, 2012)

They didn't say anything about bonus points. But, it sounds like you are saying this VIP status is not a permanant thing and they could take it away if they review my file. They didn't say anything about that. I thought once you are VIP it was permanant.


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## rrlongwell (May 21, 2012)

readg1 said:


> They didn't say anything about bonus points. But, it sounds like you are saying this VIP status is not a permanant thing and they could take it away if they review my file. They didn't say anything about that. I thought once you are VIP it was permanant.



Did they take your re-sale deed back and issue you a consoladated new one?  If they took the re-sale deed back, and you can afford the purchase, it is up to you whether or not to keep the contract.  Your average cost of VIP eligable point would be much lower counting the re-sale purchase.  If they did not take the re-sale contract back, I do not know what to say.


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## Gorms (May 21, 2012)

You can buy additional points resale to make up the VIP booking discount at a far lower cost even with the maintenance fees.  So if the only real benefit to you is discounted points, you're still way ahead financially buying resale and just using the extra points toward upgrades etc.  This is what I did and it has served me well.  I have enough point for the travel my family enjoys at a fraction of retail.


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## vacationhopeful (May 21, 2012)

*Rescind* --- If it is marked "not resale", you can get this deal later. Like in 2 months. 

But get a *3bdr RED week and PIC* that week into Wyndham when you buy that $21,000 deal. Then you will have GOLD VIP --- worth more with 10 free Guest Certificates, but more important FREE Rerservation Transactions.

And do as RRLONGWELL said - get the original 154,000 into the new purchase --- saying *YOU want JUST 1 Deed of 308,000 points or you want ARP at the such and such resort.*

If as others have suggested and the sales staff was flat out lying to YOU about the deed not being "marked" as resale, you won't have any problem as long as you don't answer any specfic questions about it. Like "where did you buy this" or "when did you buy this" or "how much did you pay" .... if you can look the original deed up online, then you can get the dates and facts.


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## SOS8260456 (May 21, 2012)

I have personally never felt that the benefits of regular VIP were worth it.  I always felt that the real benefits started at the gold level.  Up to that point the benefits were just junk.  As for any attaining any VIP level these days, you need to take an aweful lot of vacations or rent a lot of reservations to even come close to breaking even.  And if you find out it is not for you, then you are stuck with no way to recoup your financial "investment" which the day after your recission period ends the value will be practically nothing.

I would also be wary about the coding.  They do do audits and how do you know that it won't get changed back at a later date making you lose that expensive VIP status.  Or that a future sales person won't use it against you.

The 25% discount is practically worthless because you only get that on what is leftover and Wyndham frequently gives similiar discounts to regular members for those resorts that have availability close to check in.  You could always try to use it to book a reservation at 11 months and then cancel and rebook within your discount period.  But this is very very risky.  People have already reported lost reservations by doing this and it is rumored that Wyndham will be putting in more measures to hurt this practice later this year.

I think you know what you should do, otherwise you wouldn't have posted your question.

Good Luck!

Lisa


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## ronparise (May 21, 2012)

I have seen the mistakes made exactly like yours was made

buy from Wyndham, rescind, and immediately buy resale. Somehow the resale points get dropped into the account that held the rescinded contract, in place of the rescinded points ....If you had known what would happen, you should have bought 300000 points.


Your saleman is right, if those 154000 points are coded as non resale, than another 154000 will bring you to 308000 and Silver VIP status

the benefits are a 25% discount in the 60 day window before check in, unlimited housekeeping and 4 more guest certificates


The question is:  Is it worth it?....Lets assume that you make all your reservations in the discount window...That means you get to make 400000 points worth of reservations and it only cost you 300000 points........You could of course just buy 400000 points to get the same usage

Your mf on 300000 points (silver VIP) would be about $1500
Your mf on 400000 points (non VIP) would be about $2000

So either write a check to Wyndham for $21000 to get VIP and own 300000 points or pay an extra $500 a year for the same benefit (400000 points) If you make a lot of short stay reservations or intend to use a lot of guest certs, than the benefit will be greater than $500, ...Lets assume another $500

So as I see it Silver VIP is worth no more than $1000 a year....Is that worth writing a $21000 check today......

Why not buy the points to take you to 400000 on the resale market. and buy a nice muni bond fund with your $21000. Use the 5% interest to offset half of your maintenance fees....


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## timeos2 (May 21, 2012)

Simple answer - rescind while you can. There is no way the VIP - which can be changed or eliminated - is worth even $1000 and they want $21,000 from you now.  Rescind and if you want more time take advantage (again) of the tremendous deals offered by resale & forget the VIP game nonsense. It only benefits Wyndham not you.


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## am1 (May 21, 2012)

You should rescind as you do not have a good grasp of what the benefits are.  I also do not think going to VIP silver is worth it.  Now if you wanted to get up to VIP GOLD and lifetime VIP gold was in the contract then maybe you could think about considering it.  But then you have to decide how you travel and your finances, and the risk you are willing to take.  No one on here can make that decision for you.  

Once again timeos2 does not know what they are talking about.  So the message he gives is lost.

Linda, I do not think a PIC and an equity trade can be done at the same time.  That is what I have been told in the past.  But a sale is a sale so who knows.


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## vacationhopeful (May 21, 2012)

am1 said:


> ...Linda, I do not think a PIC and an equity trade can be done at the same time.  That is what I have been told in the past.  But a sale is a sale so who knows.



Have been offered both together in the past. There is a minimum number of points that have to be brought for the PIC, which 154K would be above that limit.

OP - you might want to have 2 weeks to PIC at the same time. Bargain HARD if you are spending $20K.


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## jjmanthei05 (May 21, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Simple answer - rescind while you can. There is no way the VIP - which can be changed or eliminated - is worth even $1000 and they want $21,000 from you now.  Rescind and if you want more time take advantage (again) of the tremendous deals offered by resale & forget the VIP game nonsense. It only benefits Wyndham not you.



One clarification is that the sale benefits Wyndham whether VIP or not. VIP benefits actually cost Wyndham significant money (I think it was close to 12 million last quarter). As for your Value of VIP, I think is low I would say VIP gold probably worth about $6-10/k if you have a good understanding of the benefits and are planning on using them to their fullest. You could make the $5,000 back in savings over resale within a year. Now to cover the cost of $60,000 would be a huge stretch at best. 

Jason


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## pacodemountainside (May 21, 2012)

If still at resort ask to see your "owner record form". About  4 inches down on right side will be a  box to check for Developer/resale.  Also,  at bottom will be  comments line and  if resale would so state and not eligible for VIP.

Obviously  humans who input data make mistakes, but humans called contract auditors find and correct them. I have over the years read several posts where this has happened. I am sure  deals like this get a red flag!

Simple solution. Go to sales manager and say you want him to write in plain English on contract VIP is  guaranteed and if  voided by auditors  you get all money back plus $1,000 liquidated damages.  Then sign  and have notarized.

Ron's calculations are right on. I would use stock  average return over last hundred years of about 10% which gives $2,100 before taxes and  makes break even. And you still have your $21K in the "bank"!


As far as VIP benefits  go,  per Audited Trust  financials it was reimbursed about $12 million in 2010(last year available) for  VIP  benefits. Divide this by around 100K VIPs(probably on high side and you get $120 per VIP. Cut in half to 50K VIPs and makes $240.

Lastly, VIP benefits can and will be  reduced. Go to www.wyndsham.com


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## readg1 (May 21, 2012)

rrlongwell said:


> Did they take your re-sale deed back and issue you a consoladated new one?  If they took the re-sale deed back, and you can afford the purchase, it is up to you whether or not to keep the contract.  Your average cost of VIP eligable point would be much lower counting the re-sale purchase.  If they did not take the re-sale contract back, I do not know what to say.



Yes, they actually gave me $15,000 for my original deed which I only paid a few hundred for. This was applied toward the new deed. They are issuing me a new deed for 308,000 points - not an additional deed for 154,000 points


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## am1 (May 21, 2012)

readg1 said:


> Yes, they actually gave me $15,000 for my original deed which I only paid a few hundred for. This was applied toward the new deed. They are issuing me a new deed for 308,000 points - not an additional deed for 154,000 points



Then VIP status should be for keeps then.  If you rescind they could easily get it changed back to "resale".  

$21k is a lot for something you know very little about.


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## AwayWeGo (May 21, 2012)

*Nothing That The Timeshare Companies Sell At Full Freight Is Worth The Money.*




readg1 said:


> I don't know if VIP status is worth $21,000.


I don't see how it could be. 

By me, nothing that the timeshare companies sell at full freight is worth the money -- not compared with bargain-basement resale prices for essentially the same thing without the gimmicks, & specially not compared with some of the current _el freebo_ timeshare offerings. 

That goes for Wyndham VIP right along with all the other full-freight timeshares.  Shux upon'm -- all of'm. 

Buy timeshares resale (or get'm free).  Save thousands of dollars on exactly the same thing, or the equivalent, or something even better. 

The real cost of timeshare vacationing is in those never-ending & everlasting ongoing maintenance fees, which are all the same irrespective of high or low or free acquisition costs.  In view of that, the lower that initial acquisition cost the better.  That is, I can pay years & years of maintenance fees with the money I save by not falling for the full-freight VIP retail purchase come-on. 

_Full Disclosure*:*_  We've taken Wyndham (originally FairField) timeshare sales tours a couple of times, mainly for the freebies.  Didn't buy -- but the lure of VIP status was offered in a powerfully attractive way across 1 of those little tables in the sales room, so much so that for a while there I thought The Chief Of Staff was about to reach for her checkbook.  Then she came to her senses & realized what she'd known all along, that no way the supposed advantages of VIP would ever come close to the cost differential between retail & full freight.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## timeos2 (May 21, 2012)

To pay $21,000 for any points or status that will be worth, at best, a few hundred to a maximum of $1000 ten days after you commit to the purchase makes zero sense. None. Why even consider keeping it? Best advice is rescind now and thank your lucky stars you got out unscathed.  Don't lose your only opportunity.


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## rrlongwell (May 21, 2012)

readg1 said:


> Yes, they actually gave me $15,000 for my original deed which I only paid a few hundred for. This was applied toward the new deed. They are issuing me a new deed for 308,000 points - not an additional deed for 154,000 points



Now you do have a hard decision to make.  I would take it to be done with the re-sale deed.  Some people that can afford either drive an old functioning vehicale others want the new sports car.  From a financial point of view, the working old car is better, but that does not stop people from buying the new sports car.  They worked hard for their money and deserve to spend it how they like.


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## AwayWeGo (May 21, 2012)

*They Must Teach That Move At Timeshare Seller School.*




readg1 said:


> Yes, they actually gave me $15,000 for my original deed which I only paid a few hundred for. This was applied toward the new deed.


One time a non-Wyndham timeshare seller came running to catch up with us after we said _No Thanks_ & left, waving some documents & telling us the value in their points system of the resale deed we already owned was $18*,*500 -- which she said we were foolishly giving up by not springing for the full-freight additional timeshare we would have to buy in order for our existing resale timeshare to be rolled into their points club.  

Bottom line = we pay them another $11*,*000 or so in order to "realize" the value of our "$18*,*500" timeshare, which we bought on eBay for $1*,*925 

We said _No Thanks_ again.  Case closed. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## bnoble (May 21, 2012)

> Some people that can afford either drive an old functioning vehicale others want the new sports car.


This is, at best, a tortured analogy.  The only difference between unqualified and VIP-qualified points is the "VIP perks"---otherwise, they both can be used to book exactly the same inventory at exactly the same resorts*.  A more apt analogy might be: you both get the sports car, but the guy who pays retail gets a monthly car wash, a discount on gas purchases, and a few other things.

*: There is one exception, Presidential Reserve.  But the OP is no where near qualifying for that.


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## Explorer7 (May 21, 2012)

rrlongwell said:


> Now you do have a hard decision to make.  I would take it to be done with the re-sale deed.  Some people that can afford either drive an old functioning vehicale others want the new sports car.  From a financial point of view, the working old car is better, but that does not stop people from buying the new sports car.  They worked hard for their money and deserve to spend it how they like.



The sports car analogy is exactly how I personally view my VIP Gold ownership. DW and I are both retired with very flexible schedules, in our 50’s, paid cash $40K for our deeds and take lots and lots of 2-5 day get aways, always travel on the 35% discount most of the time with upgrades. BTW when you upgrade it’s for the next available size up from the room you reserve, so if you have a 1BR and the only other room size available is a 4br presidential unit then you can upgrade to the 4br presidential. I’ve only done the 1br to 4br once so that’s certainly not a reason to buy.  I just wanted to make the point that it’s tough to say how much savings you’ll get from the upgrades since many of mine skip at least one unit size when I upgrade especially when I do the cancel and rebook on my upgrade unit which many clearly warn may or may not last moving forward.
I was VIP silver for about 3 months before going back to my rep and upgrading to Gold because I was eating up the reservation transactions too quickly as I would find better deals while cruising around the Wyndham site. 
It is a personal luxury that I enjoy the freedom of not having to track anything but my available points.
On a personal note I have to recommend that you are debt free except perhaps your home mortgage, have a fully funded emergency fund of at least 3 to 6 months of living expenses, depending on your age saving at least 15% of your income towards retirement, have a plan to fund the kid’s education if you are so inclined and your net worth can take the hit of buying something that drops so far in value very quickly. 
If you have the disposable cash and are already spending it on vacations have fun. If the finances are tight it’s probably not worth the risk of tying so much money up in vacations.
So far no regrets for me after 4 years of ownership.
Finally I do consider DW and I an exception as our situation is fairly unique.


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## drbeetee (May 21, 2012)

The way I see it, buy 400K points retail.  Have your own built in VIP and you get to spend some of that 21k that is burning a whole in your pocket!  Everybody Wins LOL....Nope buddy in all honesty you will make the best decision for you and yours!


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## pacodemountainside (May 21, 2012)

readg1 said:


> Yes, they actually gave me $15,000 for my original deed which I only paid a few hundred for. This was applied toward the new deed. They are issuing me a new deed for 308,000 points - not an additional deed for 154,000 points



Makes a difference in my prior response which was based on  a new contract for 154K but not opinion to rescind.

Check out that book "Beware of Naked Man Who Offers You Shirt Off His back"!

Looks like responses are about 9/1 to rescind from  knowledgable  and experiencd owners(veterans)/users who  have no financial interest just trying to keep some one out of deep [doo doo]!


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## DisneyLover921 (Jun 16, 2012)

*vip benefits dont cost wyndham anything*

Jason[/QUOTE]

>VIP benefits actually cost Wyndham significant money (I think it was close to 12 million last quarter

Where did you get that? The vip benefits are stolen from regular Wyndham members.

For example, when a plat. member gets a unit for half prices, it costs them nothing. It just takes that unit off inventory so regular people cant book it


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## pacodemountainside (Jun 16, 2012)

DisneyLover921 said:


> Jason



>VIP benefits actually cost Wyndham significant money (I think it was close to 12 million last quarter

Where did you get that? The vip benefits are stolen from regular Wyndham members.

For example, when a plat. member gets a unit for half prices, it costs them nothing. It just takes that unit off inventory so regular people cant book it[/QUOTE]

Get real!

I have a copy of the 2011 audited FVPUMTA  financials  right here.  You can get facts from Russel Cook, CPA,  Directotor of Club Accounting! Wyndham sales paid Trust $12,076,000 for VIP  benefits such as housekeeping, etc. 

In addition Wyndham sales transfered Developer  points for ALL point  discounts  VIPs got.  Points are points.

Were expenses calculated fairly, probably not as three  Wyndham Exeutives  are  Trust Board  and have major conflict of interest, but it passed independant audit.

Noted first post, you might want to do some homework before posting  as  active posters here are pretty savvy!

ADDED:  If VIP paid Developer say 150K cash upfront for  VIP benefits using discounted cash flow calculation  he is paying about $1K  per reservation for about  25 years assuming 8 reservations a year  and assuming Wyndham points  remain at current value!!


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## jjmanthei05 (Jun 16, 2012)

DisneyLover921 said:


> Jason
> 
> >VIP benefits actually cost Wyndham significant money (I think it was close to 12 million last quarter
> 
> ...



Actually VIP members are using wyndham's points preventing them from renting out even more units. So at least it's wyndham owners getting the units instead of wyndham. 

Jason


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