# [2012] Help end my sleepless nights - did I get scammed?



## paffel22

My family and I just got back from vacation at the Reef Playacar in Playa del Carmen, Mexico.  We participated in our first ever timeshare presentation.  And after a lot a questions, became a "member" of the resort.  The timeshare is through Interval International/Diamond Travelers.  We have four floating weeks of travel, comprised of two 2-bedrooms, and two standards.  We paid about 3500 upfront, and have to pay the remaining 9000 within two months.  It's a 25 year contract.

We can travel to any II property and will pay between 199 and 999 per week for our family of four.  (We were told the 999 is comparable to a high end property overseas.)  We can also get 40% off of airfare through the travel agency, Diamond Travelers. 

We only travel once a year for a week, and prefer all-inclusives.  For the remaining three weeks, a marketing firm (RMS) will market the remaining weeks and pay us $2000 for the 2-bedroom, and $900 for each standard.  This marketing firm will cost us $599 up front.  All maintenance fees were waived.

To us, the math makes sense. However, I am very nervous and would like to know what others who actually have a timeshare think.  I have been spending way too much time attemting to research timeshares on the internet.  Sounds like there are good and bad...  Please help!!  -+


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## DeniseM

You should ABSOLUTELY CANCEL ASAP!  You can buy this on ebay for $1.

Cancel NOW, take your time, do your homework, and decide if timesharing is for you - with no pressure.

If you end up wanting this deal after all - You can ALWAYS buy it later, but if you don't rescind NOW - you will be stuck with this until heck freezes over.

More info. about how to rescind (I wrote this for a different resort, but the basics all apply to you) - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74493

BTW - You will NEVER rent those extra weeks at that rate, and that $599 marketing fee is just a rip-off !   It is nearly impossible to make a profit renting timeshares in Mexico these days - there is far more supply than demand - this is just a ploy they use to get people to buy more than they can affort.


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## paffel22

Thanks for the quick response Denise.  I feel so embarrased and literally sick to my stomach that we fell for this scam.  We generally do not make decisions on the fly, but the $2k a year return seemed like a good deal.  

I've contacted my credit card company to initiate the dispute process.  We are outside of our 5 day rescind period for the resort, but am following the process nontheless, as they advised.  

Have you heard of any stories of those outside of the 5 day period able to rescind?


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## DeniseM

Yes - if you appeal to Profeco - a legitimate Mexican Consumer Agency on the grounds that you were lied to - you have a chance.

Profeco is a govt. agency - they are slow - but people do get help from them.

Here is  a brochure from Profeco, with more info.

I also think you should pull out all the stops with your credit card company - because telling you that you can rent your TS's for a big profit, and charging you $599 upfront, is pure fraud.

I would pursue both the credit card and Profeco. and also send the rescission letter and make it very clear that you are rescinding on the basis of Fraud.  Tell them you post about it on TUG - they don't like the bad publicity at all!


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## Htoo0

Listen to Denise, but don't beat yourself up. You have lots of company. Some of us are here on TUG making the best of it. Others never even know what happened which is probably how these companies are able to stay in business. Hope you're able to extract yourself but if not, stick around and learn how to use it. And WARN OTHERS. Education is the key. It just sounds so darn great when you're sitting there enjoying a fabulous vacation that it's hard to say NO! Good luck, I hope you're able to rescind.


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## HudsHut

Today is Monday. If you didn't already put a rescind letter in the mail, do it today. Don't let anything stop you. Get the process started.

Good Luck.


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## paffel22

Thanks so much for your feedback and support.  I emailed our letter seeking rescintion yesterday and sent it via international registered mail today.  I tried contacting the resort via phone yesterday with no success.  Our cc company feels that they will be able to walk us through the process.

I'll keep you posted as to the status, as I hope to benefit other TUG members. This website has at least given me some options and direction.   

Fingers crossed...


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## DeniseM

> I tried contacting the resort via phone yesterday with no success.   Our cc company feels that they will be able to walk us through the process.



You've been robbed and now you think they are going to help you???

This absolutely will NOT happen:
1)  You are beyond the rescission period.
2)  They have no interest in "walking you through the process" - why would they - they want your MONEY!
3)  They will just tell you some more lies...

You need to file an actual DISPUTE with your credit card - don't delay.  *Usually a dispute must be in writing.  Make it clear that you were defrauded - keep it short and sweet.  Don't send them any originals.


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## Passepartout

Do you often buy $12,500 worth of something you don't understand? File a dispute with your CC carrier. File a fraud allegation with Profeco. And follow the exact rescission instructions printed in your contract. Even late. It is likely there is a US address to send it to, not the resort where you bought it in Mexico.

Do not call them. They are not your friends.

It might just work, but not likely. You might just be their newest owner, and have 25 years of wonderful vacations ahead of you and the family. If this turns out to be the case, you are among friends here. A lot of TUGgers have awakened too late and realized they did exactly what you did.

Don't lose sleep. Just learn how to use your TS to best advantage. It's value is in it's use, as it has limited-to-no actual cash value. Sorry, but that's what it is. 

We wish you well, and Welcome to TUG!

Jim


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## Htoo0

I was hoping the OP meant the CC company would walk them through the process. Obviously the resort will not. 

BTW, yes I do often buy things I don't understand. They're called stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. In fact, it's getting to the point I don't understand the vehicles I purchase either.


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## AnnaS

Good luck.  Hope to hear from you with good results.  If not, make the best of it and enjoy it.


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## paffel22

I just wanted to share that we received a notice of cancellation from the Reef Playacar indicating that the full amount would be refunded to us within two weeks.  

I expected there to be a bigger battle than this, but thankfully there was not.  We received multiple calls from the resort (one saying they would turn us over to collections) and weekly email contact from the marketing firm.

After contacting the cc companies, just had to complete some paperwork, write a letter explaining the situation, and send the contract.  Although the money has yet to be refunded, I am hopeful that this is behind us.  

Thanks for your help.


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## amycurl

Congratulations! So nice to hear that you were able to get out of it, even though you were outside of the five days. And good for you for ignoring all of the calls.

Thanks for letting us know. Even better that they didn't make you "rescind" all of the posts talking about them!


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## AnnaS

Good for you!

Let us know too as soon as you get the refund.


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## siesta

Great news, please let us know if/when you get your $$$$ back

i wonder if this will make the newsletter =)


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## channimal

I'll offer a tentative "congrats" but let's celebrate when your $$'s are actually refunded.  The value of the TUG forum and community at work!


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## Rob&Carol Q

Huge win for the Home Team!!!  

Now do some research...and congratz!


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## MandyS

Hi

I'm VERY new here and need some advice.

We also recently bought at The Reef but have only paid a deposit.  Haven't paid the rest that is due.

I've only read this thread and wonder why this is a bad idea?  We thought it looked like a good deal/plan?!

I'm obviously a little stupid around all of you that have maybe more insight into why this is a bad thing.....

Your advice would be greatly appreciated


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## Luvstotravel

MandyS said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm VERY new here and need some advice.
> 
> We also recently bought at The Reef but have only paid a deposit.  Haven't paid the rest that is due.
> 
> I've only read this thread and wonder why this is a bad idea?  We thought it looked like a good deal/plan?!
> 
> I'm obviously a little stupid around all of you that have maybe more insight into why this is a bad thing.....
> 
> Your advice would be greatly appreciated



I checked eBay, and there's a timeshare at the same resort available for $1.  Closing costs, 2012 maintenance fees are free.


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## MandyS

Ok, wow!  That's how stupid I am with this whole timeshare thing!

Now how would I get out of this?  What grounds do I have to cancel this?  We signed these papers on the 1st of May and due to pay the balance by the 31st.

PLEASE HELP ANYONE!!!  I don't have a clue what to do or think!?!?


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## drbeetee

MandyS said:


> Ok, wow! That's how stupid I am with this whole timeshare thing!
> 
> Now how would I get out of this? What grounds do I have to cancel this? We signed these papers on the 1st of May and due to pay the balance by the 31st.
> 
> PLEASE HELP ANYONE!!! I don't have a clue what to do or think!?!?






Unfortunately I don't think there is a lot you can do.  You can not honor the contract and have it negatively affect it, or you can become a whole lot more educated about this process.  There seems to be a plethora of owners who overpaid and still are enjoying the heck out of their purchase. It seems to me you are about 21 days past the recession period which would make it hard to get it rescinded.  Everything happens for a reason, and I hope you end up with peace when this process is over.


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## KAPS

*Can anyone help???*

Hello, we are in the same boat as Baffle22.  We have recently gotten back from our vacation in Mexico....now I see, mistakenly purchased a vacation package from Reef Playacar in Playa del Carmen, Mexico. We participated in our first ever timeshare presentation. And after a lot a questions, became a "member" of the resort. The timeshare is through Interval International/Diamond Travelers. We have eight floating weeks of travel, comprised of one 2-bedrooms, and two standards. We paid about 3500 upfront, and have to pay the remainder next week, June 12).

We can travel to any II property and will pay between 199 and 999 per week for our family and friends. (We were told the 999 is comparable to a high end property overseas.) We can also get 40% off of airfare through the travel agency, Diamond Travelers.

We only travel once a year for a week, and prefer all-inclusives. For the remaining three weeks, a marketing firm (RMS) will market the remaining weeks and pay us $2000 for the 2-bedroom, and $900 for each standard. This marketing firm (RMS) cost us $599 up front. All maintenance fees were waived.

At the time, it was a  great deal...however, now that we have done some research on TUG and the fact that we can not get a hold of anyone that will take our calls at the Reef.  We feel that we were completely taken advantage of.  We sent them an email requesting them to cancel our contract and also asking them to refund our money.  We know that they have received our email, as RMS called us the next morning stating that they almost have three of our weeks rented and to not worry. They hadn't called us, like promised, prior to our email.

We have yet to hear from the actual resort.

We see that SandyM had a similar issue.  Please if anyone that can help us that would be let us know.

Thanks
S.


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## pacodemountainside

KAPS said:


> Hello, we are in the same boat as Baffle22.  We have recently gotten back from our vacation in Mexico....now I see, mistakenly purchased a vacation package from Reef Playacar in Playa del Carmen, Mexico. We participated in our first ever timeshare presentation. And after a lot a questions, became a "member" of the resort. The timeshare is through Interval International/Diamond Travelers. We have eight floating weeks of travel, comprised of one 2-bedrooms, and two standards. We paid about 3500 upfront, and have to pay the remainder next week, June 12).
> 
> We can travel to any II property and will pay between 199 and 999 per week for our family and friends. (We were told the 999 is comparable to a high end property overseas.) We can also get 40% off of airfare through the travel agency, Diamond Travelers.
> 
> We only travel once a year for a week, and prefer all-inclusives. For the remaining three weeks, a marketing firm (RMS) will market the remaining weeks and pay us $2000 for the 2-bedroom, and $900 for each standard. This marketing firm (RMS) cost us $599 up front. All maintenance fees were waived.
> 
> At the time, it was a  great deal...however, now that we have done some research on TUG and the fact that we can not get a hold of anyone that will take our calls at the Reef.  We feel that we were completely taken advantage of.  We sent them an email requesting them to cancel our contract and also asking them to refund our money.  We know that they have received our email, as RMS called us the next morning stating that they almost have three of our weeks rented and to not worry. They hadn't called us, like promised, prior to our email.
> 
> We have yet to hear from the actual resort.
> 
> We see that SandyM had a similar issue.  Please if anyone that can help us that would be let us know.
> 
> Thanks
> S.



Suggest you go to Mexico form here. Lots of company. No way will you ever get any  rental income.

You are dealing with expert scammers.


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## Passepartout

KAPS, I'd suggest you've been had. Many here got their (expensive) lesson in timeshares the same way. Sorry.

If they could rent weeks for greater than the cost of ownership, why would they sell them to you? That just doesn't make sense.

I wouldn't pay them any more money. Go to the Mexico forum and look into cancellation in the stickies. Enlist Profeco, the Mexican consumer affairs office. You might get lucky. If they are convinced that they won't get any more money they might cancel the contract. 

Remember, if a Mexican TS salesweasel's lips are moving, he's lying. There is no rule that says they have to tell you anything that is in the contract. If you don't read it, you are responsible for what it says. I'm going to wager that you at least initialed- if not signed- that you agree with the contract as written. And part of that is that you have 5 days to cancel it.

Best wishes.

Jim Ricks


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## KAPS

Passpartout,

We saw that SandyM was successful in getting her money refunded after the rescinding period... Do you think it would be wise to send them another email informing them that we will be following up the issue with Profeco and posting on timeshare websites such as TUG?

Thanks again.


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## Passepartout

Can't hurt. Might help. It sort of depends on how important a good credit rating is to you. Worst case, they turn you over to collections and smear your credit score. Today, with the number of voluntary foreclosures in REAL real estate, how much weight will be put on a timeshare outfit's bad report. It's anyone's guess. It's really the only weapon they have. But it might cost you what you already paid them.

Even late, I'd send a rescission letter certified and  let them know that you are not giving them any more. Cancel whatever credit cards they have on you and change the numbers.

Play hardball with them, because they will take whatever you offer them. If you threaten Profeco, be sure to enlist Profeco.

Jim


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## KAPS

Thanks, we've sent them an email with our rescinding request...we have also emailed Profeco with an official complaint.

If you know of anything else we should be doing, we appreciate the help.

Thanks
KAPS


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## momeason

KAPS said:


> Thanks, we've sent them an email with our rescinding request...we have also emailed Profeco with an official complaint.
> 
> If you know of anything else we should be doing, we appreciate the help.
> 
> Thanks
> KAPS



If you put it on a credit card, file a fraud dispute.


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## theo

*A suggestion...*



KAPS said:


> Do you think it would be wise to send them another email informing them that we will be following up the issue with Profeco and posting on timeshare websites such as TUG?



I'd be certain to also send *everything* you submit as hard copy, signed, written material by "snail mail", retaining photocopies thereof.

Email can (and very well might) be just ignored, or its' receipt later denied. Moreover, there is no basis for presuming its' receipt or review; your email may very well just get deflected by a spam filter at the recipient end and then never actually seen at all, by anyone. In short, email communication alone is both weak and inadequate for rescission; it simply does *not* cut it as your sole effort and course of action to try to cancel.


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## Passepartout

KAPS said:


> Thanks, we've sent them an email with our rescinding request...we have also emailed Profeco with an official complaint.



We always suggest you send rescission letters certified- return receipt requested. It has more 'weight' than email. It can't be denied or simply blown off. Also file a fraud dispute with your credit card if you used one.

You appear to be treating this too lightly from the beginning. 'Course it's your money, so you can spend it as you wish. The Mexican sharks will help you out with that.

Jim


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## Karen G

KAPS said:


> Passpartout,
> 
> We saw that SandyM was successful in getting her money refunded after the rescinding period... Do you think it would be wise to send them another email informing them that we will be following up the issue with Profeco and posting on timeshare websites such as TUG?
> 
> Thanks again.


Contact Profeco. Here is the linkfor their website. 

You can certainly post your experience on TUG and elsewhere. Sometimes that will get their attention, but your best bet is to contact Profeco and dispute the charges on your credit card.


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## paffel22

Great news, the refunds were posted to our two credit card companies!!  In speaking with the credit card companies, they had attempted to contact the resort, but did not get a return call.  They actually DENIED our dispute as we had signed a contract.  I am not sure why the Reef decided to allow us to cancel our request, but it was not a result of the credit cards company's contact, unless just their attempt to contact them scared them enough to cancel....

Regardless, we received the credit and future purchases have been blocked.


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## Karen G

paffel22 said:


> Great news, the refunds were posted to our two credit card companies!!


Congratulations! That's wonderful news.


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## Htoo0

Glad it worked out.


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## rrlongwell

paffel22 said:


> Great news, the refunds were posted to our two credit card companies!!  In speaking with the credit card companies, they had attempted to contact the resort, but did not get a return call.  They actually DENIED our dispute as we had signed a contract.  I am not sure why the Reef decided to allow us to cancel our request, but it was not a result of the credit cards company's contact, unless just their attempt to contact them scared them enough to cancel....
> 
> Regardless, we received the credit and future purchases have been blocked.



The fact that the credit card company made a refund does not eliminate the issue of the contract.  I would still try and get written confirmation that the other party to the contract has recended it.


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## theo

*An excellent point...*



rrlongwell said:


> The fact that the credit card company made a refund does not eliminate the issue of the contract.  I would still try and get written confirmation that the other party to the contract has recended it.



Absolutely. The execution of a lawful contract is an *entirely* separate and distinct matter from that of the particular means by which an initial "deposit" may have been paid at the time of contract execution. 

IMnsHO, it would be a big mistake to simply *assume* that the credit card issuer's compliance with a request for a cancellation of the "deposit" charge necessarily means that the buyer won't still have to do *separate* battle with the other party regarding the contract itself, which was lawfully and voluntarily executed...

P.S. As Yogi Berra has astutely observed, "It ain't over 'til it's over".


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## paffel22

To clarify, the credit card company did not issue a refund.  The Reef refunded our deposit to the credit card company.  The credit card company had denied our dispute because we signed a contract.

We actually received a written letter from the Reef saying that they cancelled our contract and were refunding our money...  Because we received written notification that the Reef cancelled our contract and was issuing a refund, the credit card company said they could go after them if they didn't comply.  We blocked the Reef from making future charges and hopefully this is all behind us.


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## craigtug

Contact paffel22 who started this post and follow their process, it worked for them after the rescission period


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## Karen G

Keesha said:


> I am attempting to contact Profeco


From the Profeco website:

To learn more about vacation ownership in Mexico you can visit any Profeco office, or contact us at *+52 (55) 5568-8722*.
If you want to submit a complaint send an email to extranjeros@profeco.gob.mx, or visit the Mexican Embassy or the Mexican Consulate nearest to your home. All our services are free.
For tourist information, you can also call the toll-free call center in Mexico of the Ministry of Tourism: 0*1-800-903-9200*.

Others have reported that calling Profeco helped speed things up.


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## tomcoo

*FYIs for you*

Some FYIs for you:

You did not say which credit card company, some (Chase I believe) have a 10 day cancelation policy i.e. if you dispute it within 10 days they will reverse the charges.

Credit card companies make a lot of money off these TS scams so they may be very polite but they are not your friend.

I would suggest you get a copy of the Mexican Federal  Consumer Protection Laws.  Study the parts applicable to TS.  Get a copy of the official registered contract, it will be in Spanish.  TS contracts are adhesion contracts and have to be registered with Profeco.  Profeco can help you.  Try to get a word doc so you can run it through translator software.  Then compare it to your English contract to see if there are any differences.  Any differences in the text that are detrimental to the consumer are a violation of Article 86 and the contract is "null and void".  Your CC should cave in at this point.  If not file arbitration against them.  There is no binding contract, the 5 days, 10 days whatever dosen’t matter the contract is illegal and it is fraud,  a criminal offense.  

Good luck.


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## weston8704

*HELP!! Westgate Resale TS*

Hi all, 
Just joined the forum!  My wife and I were recently duped into buying a timeshare with Westgate Resorts at the Planet Hollywood Towers, which is now actually the Elara Hitlon Grand Vacations...they didnt mention that during the sales pitch. When we arrived at the sales office apparently there was some mix up and they thought we were already owners and were just looking to upgrade. Once we explained that we were not and really just wanted the $50 gift card and free dinner that was promised they apologized and said they would send us on our way. Soon after the "manager" came over and after a few minutes said that since we were in the system as owners she could offer us a "foreclosed" unit at the PH Towers for a fraction of the cost of a new unit. The long and short of it was they made it sound like the greatest "investment" we could make and after renting the unit out twice we would more than pay off the note and could trade our one week for two weeks at any resort in the world! My wife was a little hesitant and asked if we could cancel the contract if we got home and decided we didnt want it. She just shook her head and said she had Never been asked that before and diverted to another topic....

Well we bought it and once we got home we felt insane and stupid and started doing some research to see if we could in fact cancel. We found out about NRS 119A.410 and followed the instructions to the T, sending a cancelation notice certified mail to all three addresses listed on our contract. Once I received confirmation that the notice was received, 3 days after purchase, I called to confirm the next steps. The rep explained that since this was a resale I had no right to cancel. It was like a "used car" she said with no warranty. She quoted the following point of our contract:

2. Agreement to Sell and Purchase - In accordance with and subject to the terms and conditions hereof, on the date of Closing (as hereinafter defined), Sellers agrees to sell the Property to Buyer and Buyer agrees to purchase the Property from Seller, "As-Is, Where-Is," without representation or warranty.

Does this mean we can't cancel???   Any help would be Much appreciated!


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## pacodemountainside

You have been had  by one of the best if not best scammers this side of  Mexican border. Wastegate, tower of terrors  and sea gull are beyond comprehension!

Since you bought from Developer  should not make any difference as ALL  Intervals, rooms, units are well  used at PH. While you get a deed your usage is floating unless week 51 or 52.

The catch maybe, since  Hilton took over from Westgate, Westgate is now functioning as a reseller/broker  as they no longer own complex. 

Hilton has made clear they are not going to bail out Westgaters.

Will leave to legal beagles here to sort out!


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## Passepartout

weston8704 said:


> 2. Agreement to Sell and Purchase - In accordance with and subject to the terms and conditions hereof, on the date of Closing (as hereinafter defined), Sellers agrees to sell the Property to Buyer and Buyer agrees to purchase the Property from Seller, "As-Is, Where-Is," without representation or warranty.
> 
> Does this mean we can't cancel???   Any help would be Much appreciated!



This just came up a month or so ago. Unfortunately, that's what it means. In Nevada, the right of rescission does not extend to resales. You, my friend, are new owners. The only value there is in this is in it's use and in exchange power.

Stick around and learn how to best use your new purchase. You will hear much derogatory comment about the company you bought from. Most of it true and come by honestly. They have little to no honor and will squeeze you for every nickel they can. 

As I see it, there is a slim chance that you may have saved some of those pieces of paper where the salesweasel convinced you of this wonderful investment that an attorney might be able to prove fraud, but they usually make sure to never let you away with those.

Best wishes, and Welcome to TUG. You're among friends here.

Jim


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## weston8704

Passepartout -  That's very disheartening...Unfortunately they didn't give us any of the paperwork. I have been reading every word of the Nevada law regarding timeshares and it doesn't mention anything about cancelation of a resale...
Can you tell me about how this same issue came up before? Was it on this forum?


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## Passepartout

Here's the thread about this. http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170963&highlight=nevada+rescission See especially #14 & #20. Wish I had better news for you.

So, if I may be so bold, how much did you pay for this 'bargain?'  If I might make another suggestion, you saw value in this purchase, and lots of people DID pay full retail, which you apparently didn't, so it COULD be much worse.

Now might be a good time to visit the (All Other Systems) Westgate Forum. Learn how to use what you bought. Check out the other resorts in the 'Westgate family' that you can exchange into without cost. Also become familiar with the exchange company it exchanges with (RCI? or II?). Find out it's trading value and start examining potential vacaions you can parlay this into. When you get thinking about exchanging, I'd suggest you invest- well, OK, spend $15 to actually join TUG. That gives you access to all the thousands of reviews by TUGgers of resorts worldwide and gets rid of that pesky 'Guest' designation below your username.

Jim


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## weston8704

We bought the timeshare for close to $15,000. $1500 on our credit card and financed the rest. I don't even think this is still a Westgate property. The Planet Hollywood Towers were sold to Hilton Grand Vacations so I may not even be able to exchange within the Westgate "family"...it doesnt show up on their website

We went through a Westgate sales office, so it wasn't a third party reseller. I don't know if that has any bearing on the law...

We were told by our sales rep that our one week, every two years, could be exchanged for 2 weeks at any other resort of lower rank becuase ours was a "7 star", bogus...it only goes up to 5, and the best you could buy. She also said that if we didn't use our week it would roll over to the next year and we would have two weeks. 

Part of the "promotion" for buying that day was we got 7 getaway vacations. What got me to buy was he telling us we could rent out our one week, plus our 7 getaway weeks. Of course all I saw was $$ and figured I could use the proceeds from those rentals to pay off the note and the bi-yearly maintenance fee.

If that isn't true then I just can't afford it...


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## TheWizz

weston8704 said:


> We bought the timeshare for close to $15,000. $1500 on our credit card and financed the rest. I don't even think this is still a Westgate property. The Planet Hollywood Towers were sold to Hilton Grand Vacations so I may not even be able to exchange within the Westgate "family"...it doesnt show up on their website
> 
> We went through a Westgate sales office, so it wasn't a third party reseller. I don't know if that has any bearing on the law...
> 
> We were told by our sales rep that our one week, every two years, could be exchanged for 2 weeks at any other resort of lower rank becuase ours was a "7 star", bogus...it only goes up to 5, and the best you could buy. She also said that if we didn't use our week it would roll over to the next year and we would have two weeks.
> 
> Part of the "promotion" for buying that day was we got 7 getaway vacations. What got me to buy was he telling us we could rent out our one week, plus our 7 getaway weeks. Of course all I saw was $$ and figured I could use the proceeds from those rentals to pay off the note and the bi-yearly maintenance fee.
> 
> If that isn't true then I just can't afford it...



If you have a chance later on to "convert" your Wastegate TS unit to a HGVC TS unit for a reasonable conversion fee (I haven't heard if this will be offered or for how much - just speculating), I would consider it.  The HGVC "family" (IMnsHO) is a much better system to be associated with vs. Wastegate.  It may be a year or more before HGVC actually gets around to offering such options...  Good luck and welcome to TUG.


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## Passepartout

weston8704 said:


> Part of the "promotion" for buying that day was we got 7 getaway vacations. What got me to buy was he telling us we could rent out our one week, plus our 7 getaway weeks. Of course all I saw was $$ and figured I could use the proceeds from those rentals to pay off the note and the bi-yearly maintenance fee.
> 
> If that isn't true then I just can't afford it...



Doesn't sound good, but if this is the case, you'd better get busy reserving those bonus weeks in the best resorts and the best holiday (school break and Summer) weeks and get to renting them. You have much to learn and to pay down your balance, and a short time to do it.

We wish you well. You can always try to get Westgate to cancel your sale due to hardship, but they aren't noted for empathy. Sorry, but if only you had taken that 'As is, Where is' seriously.

We can't know your other financial details, but timeshares usually are discharged in bankruptcy.

Jim


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## rrsafety

weston8704 said:


> We bought the timeshare for close to $15,000....
> 
> We were told by our sales rep that our one week, every two years, c



Just to be clear on costs. This is $15k for a 'every other year', not every year?


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## weston8704

Thank you all for your comments and help. 

My rental is one week every other year.


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## pacodemountainside

Passepartout said:


> Doesn't sound good, but if this is the case, you'd better get busy reserving those bonus weeks in the best resorts and the best holiday (school break and Summer) weeks and get to renting them. You have much to learn and to pay down your balance, and a short time to do it.
> 
> We wish you well. You can always try to get Westgate to cancel your sale due to hardship, but they aren't noted for empathy. Sorry, but if only you had taken that 'As is, Where is' seriously.
> 
> We can't know your other financial details, but timeshares usually are discharged in bankruptcy.
> 
> Jim



With you on bankruptcy!

Been to many sales pitches with different developers  and virtually all bonus/gift  weeks had  severe  restrictions  or were through II or RCI and illegal to rent.

There is no way developers  who have been selling resorts  for several years can  give away 7  weeks to  most  purchasers even if suckers  pay MF. There are only 52.1667 intervals in a year!

$15K for EOY  1 BR has to set some kind of record.


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## tamartinez2003

*The Reef*

SO my best friend and I got caught in this scam yesterday.  Apparently they have changed a few things in their pitch and now they are saying the whole thing ISN'T a time share at all, its an investment, because for every week you give them, they can rent out to people coming to look at real estate and so for every week we give them, we get our 2,000.  They are also now saying that this is good for them because its a tax shelter so in return for helping them out, that is how they can afford to give us our kick back.

They make you sign a waiver that says you give up your right to cancel in the proceeding five days starting the next business day ( which is illegal as far as I can tell from other websites to do so this is the fraud)  and it is also misrepresenting the process as an investment not as a time share, which is also in my opinion the fraud part.

The good news maybe, in our case, is we found this forum yesterday before the end of the day, and sent an email to the two people listed to cancel our membership and contract, stating it was the same day we signe dthe contract and by their own admission we only had "today". Today we are pulling together our certified mail package to send and submit a formal claim to profeco in hopes that we may have hit some magic window.

SOme of the same people described in some of the otehr complaints around are still in the business, but their scam I thinkis to do some research on you befor eyou even show up and frame their story to you to make you feel like you have a connection to them, through similar life experiences, hometowns, whatever, which make you open up, then they are trained to profile you even more and then hook you via simplythe time it takes to do the "90 minute" presentation.

ALso, I believe they google you and totally play to your weaknesses, these people are expert at playing people as fools, even as far as playing like the dumb new guy on the block to make you think you are smart one and they exploit that to their advantage.

Any rate we have both concelled our credit cards, blocked the Reef from future charges, and have informed our cc compaines our intent to dispute the charges, of which in both cases they will walk us through the process.

I am hopeful we were "lucky" and in the nick of time to be able to cancel our transactions and contract


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## Karen G

tamartinez2003 said:


> The good news maybe, in our case, is we found this forum yesterday before the end of the day, and sent an email to the two people listed to cancel our membership and contract, stating it was the same day we signe dthe contract and by their own admission we only had "today". Today we are pulling together our certified mail package to send and submit a formal claim to profeco in hopes that we may have hit some magic window.


Congratulations on finding out the truth in time and welcome to TUG. According to Mexican law you have five business days to cancel your contract--no matter what the salesman tells you. But, you should cancel in writing with some kind of proof from the post office of the date you mailed it. Let us know how it all ends up.


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## theo

*A good point and worth repeating...*



Karen G said:


> According to Mexican law you have five business days to cancel your contract--no matter what the salesman tells you. But, *you should cancel in writing with some kind of proof from the post office of the date you mailed it.* Let us know how it all ends up.



Merely cancelling the credit cards which were used in making the purchase deposit is both irrelevant and inadequate in terms of rescinding the actual contract itself. 

As Karen has astutely noted, you must *also* exercise, in writing, your legal right to *formally cancel the contract within the 5 business days provided to you by law*.  Please understand very clearly that dealing *only* with the credit cards used for the deposit does *not* in *any* way address or cancel the contract itself. You must also address the contract rescission, separately and in writing --- and the clock *is* ticking...


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## Rent_Share

theo said:


> Merely cancelling the credit cards which were used in making the purchase deposit is both irrelevant and inadequate in terms of rescinding the actual contract itself.
> 
> As Karen has astutely noted, you must *also* exercise, in writing, your legal right to *formally cancel the contract within the 5 business days provided to you by law*. Please understand very clearly that dealing *only* with the credit cards used for the deposit does *not* in *any* way address or cancel the contract itself. You must also address the contract rescission, separately and in writing --- and the clock *is* ticking...


 

Would it make sense to include a copy to Profeco. Including the illegal waiver ?


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## Passepartout

Rent_Share said:


> Would it make sense to include a copy to Profeco. Including the illegal waiver ?



Probably wouldn't hurt, but I'd think you would want to have a file opened at Profeco beforehand. Otherwise they wouldn't know what to do with an unsolicited letter. You know it's illegal to tell a buyer there is no right of rescission, I know it's illegal, the shyster salesweasels know it's illegal, Profeco knows it's illegal. The only party with some doubt that might delay them from rescinding longer than 5 days is the buyer.

To me, certainly a casual observer from the sidelines, Profeco looks like a toothless agency. Why they can't force these timeshare salesrooms to abide by their country's laws is beyond me. Either they are corrupt (no surprise), there are no penalties, or there are just so many salesrooms that it's like playing 'Whack-a-Mole'.

Jim


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## pacodemountainside

Passepartout said:


> Probably wouldn't hurt, but I'd think you would want to have a file opened at Profeco beforehand. Otherwise they wouldn't know what to do with an unsolicited letter. You know it's illegal to tell a buyer there is no right of rescission, I know it's illegal, the shyster salesweasels know it's illegal, Profeco knows it's illegal. The only party with some doubt that might delay them from rescinding longer than 5 days is the buyer.
> 
> To me, certainly a casual observer from the sidelines, Profeco looks like a toothless agency. Why they can't force these timeshare salesrooms to abide by their country's laws is beyond me. Either they are corrupt (no surprise), there are no penalties, or there are just so many salesrooms that it's like playing 'Whack-a-Mole'.
> 
> Jim



I think it is more like "do not call list".  Limited  funding  only allows going after  worst offenders.

Ill-eagle  better  applies to sick bird.

Interested  in how one whacks a mole. Know I used to use a hose and flood them  and gophers.  Does one use  baseball bat,  bicycle chain, golf club, broom stick, wine  bottle, tennis racquet,  etc.?  Maybe you could create a smiley to clarify.

For now I will stick  with ye olde horse.:deadhorse:


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## tamartinez2003

*time share scam*

SO we have returned from Mexico today, but, while still in Mexico, we did contact Profeco( the next day after signing the contract), as well as copied them on all of our emails and contacts with The Reef (same day as well).  We also sent our request via registered mail, received notification that it was received, including a scan of the name and signature of the person who signed for it.  We also sent a registered mail copy to the "legal representative" that signed all the forms there, and received notice from Profeco, that indeed, we have done what was needed to now send our credit card companies on the dispute track.  We called daily, emailed daily( mostly just to document our efforts with a date and time stamp), and now I am emailing directly the sales and group sales emails, to try and get someone to respond.  We were unable to get back to the Reef and go in person to demand our money refunded and to cancel the contract, simply due to time and our vacation plans. So far, we have yet to receive any response from anyone.  

Thanks for all the feedback, I'll keep folks posted on how this ends up, it seems we'll be in the fight for a month or so based on other's experience, but we are hopeful that we have established the correct process and can work towards a succesful solution.  It doesn't make us feel any less embarrassed, but also, realize that when dealing with crooks who obviously change their game to stay ahead of the curve, you almost have to get burned to realize exactly what is happening in the moment.  I am also convinced that prior to meeting with them, they had googled and searched for info on us, as there were too many coincidences between our sales person and us, which if you are a trusting person, disarms you so you think there is some connection between this person, and then they exploit that and hook you before you even know what you have done.  AT one point I even pulled out my tablet to search and as I look back on it, our sales person quickly distracted me by asking to take a look at my version of the Ipad...I didn't even realize what happened until much later.

Anyhow, hopefully this lesson is one that ends with a full refund and a cancelled contract!

The good news, while this demonstrated the seedy side of PDC/Mexico, we also experienced the good side, with some amazing experiences after this one that reminded us to not let one rotten apple ruin the whole tree, I may not go back to Mexico for a long while, but all in all the place is beautiful and it was a trip with adventures planned and unplanned, and I guess that's what life  is about anyways!


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## tamartinez2003

*timeshare scam update*

Well, as per a phone conversation this morning with Laura of the Reef, she informed us that, because we were with in our 5 day period, so our money will be refunded (it will take up to two weeks to post to our credit cards) and they have cancelled our contract and we should receive the cancellation in the mail to sign shortly. I found it funny they seemed put out that they had to do this, and even tried to make me feel bad about it, HAH.  But ultimately agreed "we were with in our five day window"- which tells me, they know exactly what they're doing is wrong!


Anyhow, we are grateful that we have received this notice and will now keep our fingers crossed that this all resolves itself as it appears it will.

I want to thank everyone on this discussion forum, past victims especially, for posting your experiences and your advice, and providing the exact guidance necessary to end this night mare. This discussion forum basically saved our behinds and gave us "someone" to turn to in a moment of sincere despair and let us know we were not alone.It also reminds us that there are really good people out there to make up for the crummy ones, and I hope if anyone else finds themselves in this predicament, they are willing to reach out for help and I know we'll be willing to lend the next hand.  We'll keep you posted once we receive all the finalized paperwork etc.


Lessons we learned that we wish to share for the next person to get scammed:
1. Act Quickly on your end- cancel credit cards, send emails, call- whatever to notify of your intent to cancel and ask for refund. Simply to document your decision, as soon as you can or realize what happened.
2. Get over your embarrassment and do what is necessary to get your money and life back( including go back to the "scene of the crime" if at all possible and do this all in person!)
3. Document everything, including any memory of how things transpired during the transaction. Date and time any calls you made, emails you sent, letters sent and make sure you get receipts for any money you spent on anything dealing with the resolution. Even if its on the back of a napkin, you need to have documentation and you can always transfer it later into a spreadsheet if needed, just keep originals of everything!!!
4. Contact Profeco asap.
5. If it seems too good to be true...it IS!
6. Protect yourself by being savvy and smart about "dangers" of the places you plan to travel.  (one quick search the night before on the Reef would have alarmed us to know what we were in store for and probably we would have cancelled)
7. Use all and every resource you can find to help you
8. Don't be afraid to pester and bug until you get the response you deserve.
9. Don't for a minute think these people care about you- they only care about making a quick buck of your hard earned money, so don't give it to them for any reason! No future vacation is worth it!
10. Don't give up or give in!

there are a ton more, but these are the main ones!


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## ronandbarb

Did she actually get money back?? or was it promised to get it back??


I am seeing this all way too late! we bought into the whole process in March of 2012. RMS wa suppose to sell a time share for us that would pay for reef, All was suppose to be complete at 6 months, then they asked for extension. Is all lost here too??

The reef playacar seems to get good reveiws.


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## morchu.r

paffel22 said:


> Great news, the refunds were posted to our two credit card companies!!  In speaking with the credit card companies, they had attempted to contact the resort, but did not get a return call.  They actually DENIED our dispute as we had signed a contract.  I am not sure why the Reef decided to allow us to cancel our request, but it was not a result of the credit cards company's contact, unless just their attempt to contact them scared them enough to cancel....
> 
> Regardless, we received the credit and future purchases have been blocked.


Hey Paffel22 We are going through the same problem and have found your forum helpful but could we maybe get in contact somehow, or could you tell us how you've managed to get your money back? We are new to this and would really appreciate it if you could help us out.


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## Passepartout

morchu.r said:


> Hey Paffel22 We are going through the same problem and have found your forum helpful but could we maybe get in contact somehow, or could you tell us how you've managed to get your money back? We are new to this and would really appreciate it if you could help us out.



Paffel22 has not been back to TUG since last August. You might try clicking on the blue username and sending paffel22 an email.

Best wishes for a successful outcome. We wish you well.


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## paulos

*the reef playa*

Apparantly The Reef time share sales haven't changed much.  We have just returned from Mexico and unfortunately it has been 9 days since we were talked into buying 7 weeks per year of "exchangable, rentable" weeks for 25 years.  We have given a $ 5500 deposit with the balance payable soon.
After having read of the complications and  difficulty with actualy using or being paid for the weeks we have realized we were not presented with the true facts about what we were getting into and have tried to talk to the resort but not been able to get results over the phone so far.  I have sent an email to the Company "Royal Diamond Resorts" yesterday asking to recind the aggreement and return our deposit.  Hopefully we will get a response soon. 
Any More advice would be appreciated.


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## theo

*Wrong approach...*



paulos said:


> <snip> We have just returned from Mexico and unfortunately it has been 9 days since we were talked into buying 7 weeks per year of "exchangable, rentable" weeks for 25 years.  We have given a $ 5500 deposit with the balance payable soon.
> After having read of the complications and  difficulty with actualy using or being paid for the weeks we have realized we were not presented with the true facts about what we were getting into and have tried to talk to the resort but not been able to get results over the phone so far.  I have sent an email to the Company "Royal Diamond Resorts" yesterday asking to recind the agreement and return our deposit.  Hopefully we will get a response soon.
> Any More advice would be appreciated.



My understanding is that Mexican law allows 5 business days for the cancellation / rescission of a contract. 
If you purchased 9 days ago, it seems that you may *already* be too late to exercise your right of rescission. Nonetheless, I'd strongly suggest getting a signed cancellation request sent off in writing, by mail, obtaining proof of postmark date *ASAP*, to request cancellation.

E-mails and phone calls are entirely insufficient and inadequate forms of notification to initiate cancellation, even within the allowed rescission period. These legally insufficient forms of communication (along with smoke signals and / or a note sent by carrier pigeon) are essentially just a waste of your time and effort. 

Good luck --- I suspect that you're going to need a whole lot of it at this seemingly "too late" date.

P.S. Since you have apprently passed the rescisssion deadline already, if you truly feel that you can credibly articulate and document overt misrepresentation or fraud by the seller (...you will need to have more to put on the table than just "buyer's remorse"...), you can always attempt to invoke the assistance of PROFECO in an effort to invalidate the contract (conduct a search on PROFECO for contact info and other details).


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## Mfloto

*The Reef Sharks*

We had the same experience first of Feb.  we read these messages that night and immediately sent an email to the Reef stating we were exercising our right to rescind.  The next day we walked in and personally told the little weasels in person.  They said they had received our email and that by the time we got back to our resort we would have an email stating that our contract had been undone.  Surprise!!  No email.  The next day we went back in with a handwritten letter that I had made two copies of.  I made them sign one of them and again we were assured that we had nothing to worry about.  Might I say this whole thing ruined the last 2 days of our vacation.  When we got back I followed up with a registered letter to them and dispute through the CC company.  A week later we got emails from Lloydshare, and a week ago we got emails from the resort with our usernames etc.  Then in the last 3 days I have had several voicemails from a guy named George wanting to finalize my timeshare trade in.  Oh it was all undone alright what a bunch of crooks.  The good part is my credit card dispute did get my deposit back and I have changed my CC numbers so they can't make any more charges.  Also my timeshare company know not to deal with them on the trade in.  The good part is we have learned that the $200 and the Kahlua are not worth it....stay FAR FAR AWAY from timeshare presentations.......we bought the one we have from a resale for really cheap and it has been great.  It was the line about making $2000 per week that got us.  Silly us for believing that crap!!  I hope I don't have to fight them anymore on this but who knows.  Thank you everyone for the posts that saved us.....


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## siesta

For future readers of this thread listen up.  Emailing the resort, telling the staff in person, etc. is not an effective mode of cancellation.  You need to follow the rescission instructions exactly, which is often certified mail to a specific address/department.

Again, *Follow the rescission instructions in your paperwork to a T*


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## jonsie

*The Reef*

Just wanted to say that after reading all the posts on Time Shares, I freaked, and did call the companies, both GDS Partners as well as several staff at the Reff Resort.  Ours is just a test drive for five year but everyone so far has been helpful.  GDS is the company that is overseeing the sale of our time share and they are apparently a  licensed and bonded company.  Still very shaky on this part.  The Reef is a member of Royal Diamond Resorts in which we put 4000 down to get into a 5 year test drive.  The contract states that GDS will pay us 2000 per unit per year if we do not use these units.  So we are expecting to get 4000 back this year, seemed like a no-brainer to me, but also too good to be true.  Dont know yet.  We also have to pay between 200 and 999 for up to 6 people to stay at an " all inclusive".  Im sure it wont be as wonderful as they made it out to be, but so far, the companies that I have been dealing with have answered my calls, my questions, and have had all the right information.  I intend to keep going until they don't do something they have promised, then I will fight them. I have had a lawyer look over the documents and they appear to be standard documents that cover clearly what services they are supposed to offer.  I Will update the site on how it goes. If for nothing else to help out those who are being scamed or to pave the way for new and legitimate companies to find a better way to help people travel.  Thanks for all of you out there on this site providing up to date information on this kind of thing.


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## rrsafety

jonsie said:


> Just wanted to say that after reading all the posts on Time Shares, I freaked, and did call the companies, both GDS Partners as well as several staff at the Reff Resort.  Ours is just a test drive for five year but everyone so far has been helpful.  GDS is the company that is overseeing the sale of our time share and they are apparently a  licensed and bonded company.  Still very shaky on this part.  The Reef is a member of Royal Diamond Resorts in which we put 4000 down to get into a 5 year test drive.  The contract states that GDS will pay us 2000 per unit per year if we do not use these units.  So we are expecting to get 4000 back this year, seemed like a no-brainer to me, but also too good to be true.  Dont know yet.  We also have to pay between 200 and 999 for up to 6 people to stay at an " all inclusive".  Im sure it wont be as wonderful as they made it out to be, but so far, the companies that I have been dealing with have answered my calls, my questions, and have had all the right information.  I intend to keep going until they don't do something they have promised, then I will fight them. I have had a lawyer look over the documents and they appear to be standard documents that cover clearly what services they are supposed to offer.  I Will update the site on how it goes. If for nothing else to help out those who are being scamed or to pave the way for new and legitimate companies to find a better way to help people travel.  Thanks for all of you out there on this site providing up to date information on this kind of thing.



This sounds like a NIGHTMARE.


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## Zycie84

jonsie said:


> Just wanted to say that after reading all the posts on Time Shares, I freaked, and did call the companies, both GDS Partners as well as several staff at the Reff Resort.  Ours is just a test drive for five year but everyone so far has been helpful.  GDS is the company that is overseeing the sale of our time share and they are apparently a  licensed and bonded company.  Still very shaky on this part.  The Reef is a member of Royal Diamond Resorts in which we put 4000 down to get into a 5 year test drive.  The contract states that GDS will pay us 2000 per unit per year if we do not use these units.  So we are expecting to get 4000 back this year, seemed like a no-brainer to me, but also too good to be true.  Dont know yet.  We also have to pay between 200 and 999 for up to 6 people to stay at an " all inclusive".  Im sure it wont be as wonderful as they made it out to be, but so far, the companies that I have been dealing with have answered my calls, my questions, and have had all the right information.  I intend to keep going until they don't do something they have promised, then I will fight them. I have had a lawyer look over the documents and they appear to be standard documents that cover clearly what services they are supposed to offer.  I Will update the site on how it goes. If for nothing else to help out those who are being scamed or to pave the way for new and legitimate companies to find a better way to help people travel.  Thanks for all of you out there on this site providing up to date information on this kind of thing.


Any chance I can get the numbers you called? Today is our 5th day and IM FREAKING OUT!! Thankfully we only paid $1,000 for 6 weeks but I still want out. Help!


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## Passepartout

DO NOT CALL! Any contact by phone will only result in runaround to delay you past the deadline to rescind. Follow the rescission instructions in your packet. If that was not included (they don't make the instructions easy to find), send a simple letter ( I/ We wish to cancel contract # XXXXXX dated 5/XX/2013. Signed (buyers-date). Send it certified w/return receipt dated TODAY, day 5. Preferably send to the business office, not the sales floor.

Oops, i just saw that the 5th day was 2days ago. Hope you got it sent and didn't wait or call.

Regards.


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