# Wyndham vs Owners



## tiger84 (Jul 23, 2009)

I read some info on another post about how bad Wyndham is treating the owners after they took over from Fairfield.  There was reference to a "war" at Blue Beard Castle in USVI?  One person was noting how much more trouble he was having booking prime time even 13 months in advance.   

Being a Wyndham owner (who has not used mine much) I was just wondering if someone could shed more light on this.  Are they limiting availability to owner's so they can rent to non-owners (while we pay the maint. etc)?  Sounds like Wyndham is getting a reputation for one of the worst to own on points system.


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## lprstn (Jul 23, 2009)

It depends who you talk too.  Yes, there were many changes and lets face it NO ONE likes change.  Yes, they changed the benefits in favor of their business.  So do other timeshare companies.

However, in my case I am not unhappy with my purchase at all.  I use it, well and often within the limitations of the program and am still happy with them.


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## Timeshare Von (Jul 23, 2009)

I too am pretty happy with my Wyndham ownership (two fixed weeks and one UDI contracts).  I must admit, however, the "no rentals" policy on points is a big bummer and one that may result in my dumping my UDI ownership.  My first year of owning (acquired from my sister) I rented the points to another Wyndham owner . . . and this year I rented points to get 6 nights in New Orleans for a conference.  I have no idea what I'll do with 77k points in 2010.


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## joestein (Jul 23, 2009)

The policy of no renting/transfering points is a real problem.

We have 3 different accounts in my family.  Mine, my wifes and my SILs.  We bought the 2 other accounts with the understanding that we could trade points between them.  

One of my accounts is a EOY with 135K points that trades through II.  I got it mainly to trade into Disney, but you can see that hasn't worked out too good.  At least I got 3 trades in there.

Joe

 (for my daughter)


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## Jya-Ning (Jul 24, 2009)

No, as of now, the main income is from people purchase from them.  so, if any, they try to keep inventory open.

But while people think they are fixing something, they may just take a easy way and when doing it, it actual broken more pieces than help open the inventory.

Jya-Ning


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## Goofyhobbie (Jul 24, 2009)

*Wyndham Vs. Owners*

I have been a Fairfield (Wyndham) weeks owner since 1985. I also own at Barrier Island Station, Duck, NC. 

Recently I decided to jump in the pond and purchased 4 contracts that will give me 469,000 points at Wyndham Ocean Boulevard. I did so after much thought and research. Indeed, I bought knowing of the changes well in advance. 

Wyndham makes their big bucks selling at Developer prices. Once you make up your mind not to go that route you are way ahead in any War that may take place. I specificly chose not to get involved with what they call VIP so I could care less if they do away with privilages associated with VIP.

For me it was about the basics and about gettin points as cheaply as possible where I would routinely use them. My second consideration was the cost of Maintenance.  There is where I really focused to get into the best possible Regime at Myrtle Beach. 

I bought to use ARP to get exactly what I want year in and year out at Myrtle Beach, SC. I will deposit with RCI in 2009 because there is little choice unless I want to go to Florida in December. 

Instead of the attitude that Points are Points, I went for LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION; but I also made what I feel was the right choice in maintenance fee cost (given the options available).  

*Bottom Line*, to me if there is a War it only affects me if it affects everyone. I don't see myself needing to transfer points, rent points, or sell points. I am a consumer and that's it.

If you go with Wyndham consider exactly how you see yourself using the Points.


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## jercal10 (Jul 24, 2009)

*I read some info on another post about how bad Wyndham is treating the owners after they took over from Fairfield.  *



Wyndham did not "take over" -- only a name change.


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## ace2000 (Jul 24, 2009)

jercal10 said:


> Wyndham did not "take over" -- only a name change.


 
Not true, it was NOT only a name change.  It took a few years, but they purchased the company and then changed the name.


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## joestein (Jul 24, 2009)

Actually, Fairfield was owned by Cendant, a huge corporate conglomerate.  After they owned them for a number of years they aquired Wyndham, to go along with their portfolio of many other hotel chains.  

They then decided to split the company into 4 seperate companies.  All the hotels and timeshare went into 1 company that they decided to call Wyndham Worldwide.  Shortly after the split, the Wyndham Worldwide decided to rebrand it 'Fairfield by Wyndham' and just recently changed it again to 'Wyndham Vacation Club'.

Any way you slice it, things have gone downhill for the owners since Cendant split up the companies.

Joe


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## ace2000 (Jul 24, 2009)

Correct, Cendant purchased Fairfield in 2001.


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## jercal10 (Jul 24, 2009)

Negative vote on things going down hill. Just aint so!


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## Bill4728 (Jul 24, 2009)

I think everyone can agree that Wyndham made two changes in their system which almost everyone looks at as a negative.

1- Stopped allowing owner to rent their points to/from other owners

2- Significant changes & huge increase in the cost of guest certificates.

If you don't do much in either area, then these changes don't effect you. 

BUT I must agree with Goofyhobbie, If you buy resale, these changes are a small $$$ compared to the huge amounts of money you saved buying resale.


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## joestein (Jul 24, 2009)

Even saving the money buying resale this is still a big deal.  I have 2 undersized accounts and without the ability to transfer points between them, they are useless for many things, othen than one of them making 28K deposits to RCI.

Joe


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## jercal10 (Jul 24, 2009)

Bill never talks about the imrovements.

Such as :
* on line bookingm 8 limite use points eleiminated

* an expanded network of nice resorts--such as Bonnet Creek,Grand Desert,Ocean Blvd, Glacier Canyon,Panama City---

None of these cost us resale buyers a cent!!!!


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## timeos2 (Jul 24, 2009)

*one of best deals going*



jercal10 said:


> Bill never talks about the imrovements.
> 
> Such as :
> * on line bookingm 8 limite use points eleiminated
> ...



Exactly! Ignore the bogus VIP & deal with resale only & Wyndham is one of if not the best value for the dollsr there is. Renting points should be allowed & the cost of gc is insane but neither has much impact on most owners overall.


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## Timmuscat (Jul 24, 2009)

I agree with John.  I purchased my points resale last year.  We are very happy with both our internal bookings through Wyndham, and our external bookings through RCI.  The system is far from perfect, but when you purchase at bargain resale prices on ebay, it's still a great deal.

I only have two ongoing concerns: (1) dramatically escalating maintanence fees, and (2) possible future efforts by Wyndham to further restrict the use of resale points.  I really worry about the second point the most.  What prevents Wyndham from reducing the value of resale points when reserving a property other than your home resort?  Could Wyndham in the future say that in order to be "fair" to VIP members, the value of resale points are reduced by 50% when used for a resort other than your home resort?  I certainly hope this never happens, but I worry about it.


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## Lisa P (Jul 24, 2009)

joestein said:


> Any way you slice it, things have gone downhill for the owners since Cendant split up the companies.


Too broad a statement, Joe.  I realize it's gone downhill for some but this certainly doesn't apply to me.



Bill4728 said:


> I think everyone can agree that Wyndham made two changes in their system which almost everyone looks at as a negative.
> 
> 1- Stopped allowing owner to rent their points to/from other owners
> 
> ...


Actually, these do affect me but in a positive way.  With fewer people renting out their points and inventory, there's better availability for regular owners to reserve prime vacations for their own use.  We don't gift or rent out more than one reservation per year.  So now, we get one free Guest Cert for that reservation.  While we'd have to pay a higher Guest Cert fee than previously if we needed more than one per year, we are among those who benefit from this change.  Anyone who primarily uses their ownership rather than treating it like a business is more likely to benefit from the changes.



joestein said:


> I have 2 undersized accounts and without the ability to transfer points between them, they are useless for many things, othen than one of them making 28K deposits to RCI.


Would it be possible for you to combine your accounts?  Usually, Wyndham seems to want you to combine contracts to a single account.


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## ace2000 (Jul 24, 2009)

Lisa P said:


> Would it be possible for you to combine your accounts? Usually, Wyndham seems to want you to combine contracts to a single account.


 
LOL - you're right...  They do want you to combine contracts into a single account.  And they'll be glad to help you accomplish that!  :hysterical:


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 24, 2009)

With a minimum retail purchase of 105,000 points.:hysterical:


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## Goofyhobbie (Jul 24, 2009)

*Combine Memberships*



> *Originally Posted by joestein:*" I have 2 undersized accounts and without the ability to transfer points between them, they are useless for many things, othen than one of them making 28K deposits to RCI."



Joe, 

Here is my thoughts on your situation. 

*First:*  Where the Primary Owner owns more than one contract (initial purchase contract followed by subsequent purchases of contacts). Wyndham creates a POINTS MEMBERSHIP ACCOUNT with the first purchase and any subsequent Contract purchases are placed under the original Membership Number. THAT MAKES SENSE To ME. How do you feel about that?

*Second:* Where the Primary Owner wants to add a NAME as an AUTHORIZED USER (*A way around the high on-going costs of Gift Certificates for some owners*.) The Owner can call Owner Relations and they will gladly arrange to accept a $150 fee to add the new authorized user to the Membership Account.

*Third:* If for what ever reason you are shown as the PRIMARY OWNER under more than one Membership # call Wyndham Owner Relations and get that situation fixed. *There should be no charge for moving all contracts, where you are shown on the Deed as the Primary, to one single Membership Number.*

*Fourth:* If you and a former spouse are shown under a Membership Number because both of you are shown on the recorded deed recommend you contact your Attorney to have a new deed recorded and follow that with a call to Wyndham Title Services (1-800-251-8736 Option 2 and then Option 3). 

*Fifth:* If you purchased as Primary on one or more contracts and have them under your membership number and someone else purchased one or more contracts and have them under their membership number. I do not see a way to combine all under one membership number unless you form a Trust and dump all the contracts into the Trust. Before going that route get good legal advice and make sure you get Wyndham to agree to the arrangement in advance.

[You need to be cautious about who you allow to be an Authorized User and you should of course be cautious about who you designate as abeneficary of a Trust]


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## jamstew (Jul 24, 2009)

Goofyhobbie said:


> Where the Primary Owner owns more than one contract (initial purchase contract followed by subsequent purchases of contacts). Wyndham creates a POINTS MEMBERSHIP ACCOUNT with the first purchase and any subsequent Contract purchases are placed under the original Membership Number.



Does this apply to resale contracts, or do you have to buy the first one from the developer?


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## joestein (Jul 24, 2009)

My wife and I own one account.  We purchased another one under my wife and daughters name so that it would trade into II.  That is why we have 2 adcounts.  I had figured we could transfer points between the two depending on which exchange co we might want to use.  We rarely use our points to book directly through Wyndham.

Shortly thereafter, my SIL also purchased an account and we have shared points back and forth.

I am hesitant to combine the two accounts because Disney might end back in II, you never know.


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## Goofyhobbie (Jul 25, 2009)

Joe,

At least now you know the options available.

I better understand your family's dismay at losing the capability to transfer points back and forth for trading with your trading  company of choice.  

That is probably a relatively unique situation to be in. I would think that those accessing II and RCI with separate and distinct membership accounts set it up that way so they could do exactly what you have been doing up until March of this year.  

We can hope that Wyndham will see the light in the near future and allow transfer of points between obvious family members.

The broad paint brush approach to put a road block in place to curtail commercial use of transfered points should come back to haunt them if enough affected folks like yourself let them know in writing exactly how their action has adversely affected your ablity to use your points with more flexibility.


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## Jya-Ning (Jul 25, 2009)

This is how I compare the companies.

All active TS company are constant built more desire TS, because this is their live line until this year.  Some do build more aggressively than the other.  

At this age, all reasonable company has on-line access.  Some is better than the other.

Most company are shrink the benefit they provide to the owner when they purchase year in year out.

Most TS are increasing the MF, in fact all company you deal with increase their charge over the year.  However, some do care about management, and some not that good.

Wyndham would not be the best one, and would not be the worse one.

Jya-Ning


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## jercal10 (Jul 25, 2009)

so who do you feel is the best one and why?


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## Goofyhobbie (Jul 25, 2009)

> *Originally Posted by Goofyhobbie:*
> 
> Where the Primary Owner owns more than one contract (initial purchase contract followed by subsequent purchases of contacts). Wyndham creates a POINTS MEMBERSHIP ACCOUNT with the first purchase and any subsequent Contract purchases are placed under the original Membership Number.





> *Follow-up Question posted by jamstew:* Does this apply to resale contracts, or do you have to buy the first one from the developer?



No you do not have to buy the first contract from the Developer.

Whether the Owner originally bought POINTS from Wyndham or they purchased Re-Sale, Wyndham once notified of the purchase, will do their due diligence.

When they determine that the New Owner has purchased Re-Sale then   Wyndham will create a Points Membership Account on the first contract and add any subsequent contracts purchased through Re-Sale or from Wyndham under that initial membership number.

The bottom line is at the point in time when the Owner becomes a recognized POINTS Member whether from a direct purchase from Wyndham or through RE-sale a single account is established and all subsequent contracts for that Member will or should be placed under that POINTS membership account.

As previous TUGGERS have mentioned there has apparently always been a way to get Wyndham to establish separate membership accounts for POINTS memberships to get access to RCI and II.  However, the benefit of creating more than one Membership POINTS account has been significantly diminished with the current inability to Transfer one's points to another membership account.

Dave


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## Lisa P (Jul 25, 2009)

ace2000 said:


> LOL - you're right...  They do want you to combine contracts into a single account.  And they'll be glad to help you accomplish that!  :hysterical:





vacationhopeful said:


> With a minimum retail purchase of 105,000 points.:hysterical:



:rofl: Just sign here to redeed your ownership over to the newest, best trading resort!  Hey, it's worth it to avoid the 200% increase in maint fees that's coming to your home resort (any home resort) next year!    And they'll even throw in a new Wyndham Perks card for 10-50% off selected hotel rooms and everyday purchases.  :whoopie:   :hysterical:


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## Goofyhobbie (Jul 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *ace2000: *LOL - you're right... They do want you to combine contracts into a single account. And they'll be glad to help you accomplish that! :hysterical:





> Originally Posted by *vacationhopeful:* With a minimum retail purchase of 105,000 points. :hysterical:





> Originally Posted by *Lisa P.:* :rofl:  Just sign here to redeed your ownership over to the newest, best trading resort! Hey, it's worth it to avoid the 200% increase in maint fees that's coming to your home resort (any home resort) next year!  And they'll even throw in a new Wyndham Perks card for 10-50% off selected hotel rooms and everyday purchases.:whoopie:  :hysterical:



 The package is only $20,000 plus the standard $349 Processing Fee. Oh! and my Manger has agreed to give you 105,000 Bonus Points for your use between July 25 and December 31st. Isn't that Great! :whoopie: :hysterical:


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## Jya-Ning (Jul 28, 2009)

Jya-Ning said:


> This is how I compare the companies.
> 
> All active TS company are constant built more desire TS, because this is their live line until this year.  Some do build more aggressively than the other.
> 
> ...





jercal10 said:


> so who do you feel is the best one and why?



Wow, you try to get me hit by owners from other groups? I pay more attention to Wyndham, so for other groups, only if they are public traded company, I seldom check their status.

But this is how I feel in general.

For last 3 years, I believe Diamond purchased Sunterral, so for the originally owner, they saw their resorts increase by many folds, although it can not be say the same if you are sunterral's owner.  I believe Orange Lake goes to point system, and add 1 or 2 resorts outside of Orlando, so their resorts goes to 2 folds.  I believe Fiestval purchase Old Peppertree from Wyndham, so the same for their exist point owner but sadly the other way for Peppertree owner.  And I think Disney add 2 new locations compare to Orlando and HHI locations.

I believe it is much hard for week type mini chain to compete with point base system on building new resorts.  They need to get a good location, enough size to build so the units has good views, enough good travel time in the area so the unsold unit can be covered.  Point base has much advantage against them, they can get places with less desired (cost less), travel time is highly seasonal, and sell them point by point.

Of the public trading companies, Wyndham is biggest, Bluegreen is distance from them.  Wyndham has 2 systems, Wyndham and the developer for WorldMark.  I do believe both Bluegreen and Worldmark has come up newer resorts neck to neck compare to Wyndham.  But I believe Wyndham within these 3 years has built more than 10 different resorts on 10 different locations (or driving range over 2 hrs apart), I do believe on the building newly added resort, Wyndham probably is number 1 on that regard.  But that is for the previous period.  For the next 3 years, I believe all the companies are the same, most has stop building for the next 3 years, and I don't believe we will see they progress until end of 2010.  It usually is a very slow process to get approval and permit for TS, so at this moment, all are the same in that regard.

For the on-line system, I have another point system that has a very lousy on-line.  But it is 24/7, and it used to behave very similar to current Wyndham system except it has less resource and not as reliable.  Now, after their upgrade, it become worse.

I know several mini-system are coming with their on-line systems.  And I can see eventually, all will come with the economic downturn.

But for years, Worldmark has its on-line system that stand tall vs Wyndham.

My feeling is, with the complexity of Wyndham because of its sale, it will never be a good on-line system.  There always has a lot of activities for the human intervention.  The current system can only handle standard reservation for non-VIP activities.  Now, add ARP, Club Access, President, Outrigger Club, Discover program, All VIP specific activities.  We have only a bare system.  Althought It is good for people like me such as non-VIP/resale buyer, I would not call it is a great on-line.  I don't have statistic, so can not tell you what is the % the current system cover, I will make a pure guess, I guess it cover like 70% of the activities, so it is relatively good system.

I do see mini-system with relative less sale program get much better than Wyndham on that aspect.

Companies do shrink benefits.  And point base do have more rooms to manuve vs week base system.  But the leading point program I believe is Disney, and I do believe they have much less change and more stable on their process.  And some of the other small company has not change too much at all.  As I say, I have another very lousy point base program (classified by tug), but they have not change any in 5 years, grant, their size is small, so they may not need to dramstic change.

With most owners has less idea how to use their purchase, and you try to make change every year, which in term confuse your VC and create training nightmare, I don't think it benefit the image if you want compete neck to neck to top brand.

The problem is, their head for the system is changed every few years Like in 10 years of my ownership, I believe there is 5 changes already.  And look like each new head want to impose his/her say on how to create a better system.  I don't think any company that is trying to build a system is any leading company.

As to manage, I think you can go over and compare different management.  I do believe the corp add a lot of overhead, but in Wyndham's case, since their sales are creating different program, it add extra difficulty in management, and as to real mange the resort, I don't see they provide the added value or use their big corp as advantage. So sorry, I don't believe they are top rate here.

So, of the 4, I believe the only one they are in top is the aggressive add newer resorts.  Although on-line they should be at above average to top range.

As to new resort, with the now stop renting between owner, and existing restriction on renting rules and reserved units for president owner, at certain point, newer resort is equal to null effect.

Jya-Ning


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## jercal10 (Jul 28, 2009)

Lot of words but total non answer. You could have said "I don't know"

IMHO


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## ecwinch (Jul 28, 2009)

jercal10 said:


> Lot of words but total non answer. You could have said "I don't know"
> 
> IMHO



Wow - perhaps you should lighten up. That's a little harsh when someone went to such great lengths to attempt to answer your question. And you are asking a very subjective question, for which a lot of detail was provided.

Not exactly going to make others rush to answer your questions, and I hope you treat the next person who bothers to answer you with just a tad more respect. 

It will not be me though...


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## Jya-Ning (Jul 28, 2009)

jercal10 said:


> Lot of words but total non answer. You could have said "I don't know"
> 
> IMHO



I am sorry this is not the answer you are looking for.  But the fact is, in my subject opion, the resale price reflect what they are.  Maybe a little bit unfair to most of their workers, but does not really too far from what the company  stand against all the other TS company now.

Jya-Ning


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## bnoble (Jul 29, 2009)

jercal10 said:


> Lot of words but total non answer. You could have said "I don't know"
> 
> IM*H*O



I think you mis-understand the meaning of the word "humble" here.  Jya-Ning gave a pretty nice summary (that I think is mostly correct) comparing the various mini-systems.  Unfortunately, there is no simple cut-and-dried answer to "which one is best" because it really depends on where you want to go.


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## Goofyhobbie (Jul 30, 2009)

ecwinch, Jya-Ning and bnoble,

Wow, you folks are extraordinarly courteous and restrained when reacting to someone who asks a question and then hammers the responder so bluntly.

It is great to be part of this community because you Folks are so nice to each other and respectful of one anothers feelings and opinions. 

I have to say, however, that had it been yours truly who was hammered after working so hard to respond I doubt that I would be able to come back so graciously.

jercal10, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION should go back and ask his or her mother why she didn't teach him or her better manners. Then when MOM gets through wacking his or her typing fingers for being so rude he or she might do better next time.  

Meanwhile, the rest of us are forewarned to not spend a lot of time responding to any question that jercal10 might present in the near future.


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## ecwinch (Jul 30, 2009)

Goofyhobbie said:


> ecwinch, Jya-Ning and bnoble,
> 
> Wow, you folks are extraordinarly courteous and restrained when reacting to someone who asks a question and then hammers the responder so bluntly.
> 
> It is great to be part of this community because you Folks are so nice to each other and respectful of one anothers feelings and opinions.



Perhaps they are just having a bad day. I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt.


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## ranpar01 (Aug 12, 2009)

Wow, this was a really good thread until such a rude response.  I was hoping to jump in and also ask about the effect Wyndham is having on on Worldmark?  After hearing the bad reivews on Wyndham I'm hoping they don't do the same for Worldmark....  I'm looking to buy into Worldmark at only 6,000 points and then buy the other points I need as i need them.  If Wyndham is able to stop individuals from selling their points, I guess there is no gaurantee that Worldmark will do the same at some point right?


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## Jya-Ning (Aug 13, 2009)

ranpar01 said:


> If Wyndham is able to stop individuals from selling renting their points, I guess there is no gaurantee that Worldmark will do the same at some point right?



Not WM owner, you may want to start a new thread, or ask modorator to seperate your post to another thread.  Most of WM owners will think this is Wyndham only discussion and will not realize you are asking WM in this thread.

From outsider point of view, yes, it could happen.

However, WM owner can vote owner into the club board, and some are actively trying that for at least 5 or 6 years.  And, Wm's forum do establish the renting point scheme for a much longer time than Wyndham.  So I will guess the owner base will be much larger. And generally speaking, WM has better computer support system.   Thus I don't think Wyndham Corp. will do it as unconsiderate as they do to Wyndham Vacation owners.

But here is the other way to look at it, generally speaking, unless you only need to rent one or 2 times for say 10 years period, the more point usually give you better MF/point ratio in WM.  And they usually allow you to do more things easier.  Thus, you should looking at the point range you are more likely to use over a period of time and the MF level is very comfortable with you.  So if they stop this practice, you still be able to use it happily for your vacation, although it does make it more un-flexible.

Jya-Ning


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## carl2591 (Aug 17, 2009)

I have to say after all the post here, I was thinking about getting into the Wyndham system, I now have a lot of reservations about making the leap..

It seem corporate greed drives these companies to do things that diminish the value they presented at purchase by many, years ago. 

Why did Wyndham remove the renting or swapping of point among members.. In my view,. they saw it as a way to skim more money through point rentals and guest fees.

Why would Wyndham NOT take the approach that points gotten on the resale market should have less "value" that points gotten at retail.. ??

How can the "rank and file" members prevent such acts from happening in the future.. As far as I can see NONE..

that makes me not want to swim with the sharks especially since we are wearing seal pants.

I already own two SA units and they do fine.. But are not able to exchange into a lot of Wyndham's for some reason.. I suspect insider dealings with resorts. 

maybe if more and more owners come to sites like TUG or TStoday and see the truth it might make the TS developers and TS owners like Wyndham, Waste er.. Westgate more cautious about changing the rule's willie nillie for fear of a back lash. But until that time comes its every man for him self..


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