# Las Vegas still hurting?



## John Cummings (Feb 26, 2010)

Times must still be pretty tough in Las Vegas.

We just received an offer from Wynn in the mail for a free suite at the Encore and a $50 food credit. This came out of the blue because we have never stayed at a Wynn property nor had a player's card from any of their casinos. It was addressed specifically to me. The offer is valid for the next 4 months. We will pass on it but it was interesting that we received it.


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## ricoba (Feb 26, 2010)

John Cummings said:


> Times must still be pretty tough in Las Vegas.
> 
> We just received an offer from Wynn in the mail for a free suite at the Encore and a $50 food credit. This came out of the blue because we have never stayed at a Wynn property nor had a player's card from any of their casinos. It was addressed specifically to me. The offer is valid for the next 4 months. We will pass on it but it was interesting that we received it.



Since we have played a tiny little bit at the Wynn when it first opened we too have gotten some very discounted offers (but not free) from them.  I too am surprised when I receive their offers.

While things are slowly picking up, I think it's going to be years before we see a return to the good old days of even a few years ago.  

It's kind of funny how Vegas self promotes, just a couple months ago they were predicting that City Center would be the "savior" of the Strip - yet here as we see top notch properties are discounting deeply.

I follow the message boards on a Vegas site, and I think that those that call for Vegas to return to its roots are right on the money.  Cheap rooms - cheap food - cheap shows - great service - and good odds on games and looser machines.  

While they can't go back to the whole city catering to the "low roller", they do need to have a better mix.  This growing idea in Vegas that 5 star chefs and high end uber-lounges catering to only to the wealthiest is the way for Vegas to go is not a growth strategy in my mind.

As I have said before, I believe it's the corporations that have killed the goose that laid the golden egg in Vegas.  The corporate mentality with their bean counters and corporate structure have done in my view, serious damage to the principles that Vegas was built upon.  

There are just way too many opportunities for people to gamble now days.  Vegas, in my opinion, needs to return to it's roots, because in my view that is what made it so unique and it will set itself apart from the ton of worldwide competition it now faces.

Just my two cents, for what it's worth.


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## timeos2 (Feb 26, 2010)

*Doesn't bode well for rentals*

It appears all the gambling mecca's, as well as overall travel, is still hurting very badly. Deals for Atlantic City or other, single casino/resorts all around the area are commonplace in each travel section of the various local papers. It will continue to depress the rental market for timeshares as they are competitive on space/features but short on bonus offers like free meals, comp chips, etc. Hate to be trying to rent even New Years eve in some overpriced penthouse in LV under these conditions 

Plus I notice that airfares have recently plummeted - at least in our area. Round trip to FL are at levels we haven't seen since the 70's. Same with Las Vegas and LA.  Great deals right now.  They want to fill the planes and apparently it isn't easy even with the overall capacity decline.  

It is a tough time for discretionary spending in any area for most people. Timeshares are being hit perhaps the hardest of all with general real estate not that far behind.  Travel is right up there too.


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## John Cummings (Feb 26, 2010)

I forgot that they also included 2 free show tickets.


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## John Cummings (Feb 26, 2010)

ricoba said:


> Since we have played a tiny little bit at the Wynn when it first opened we too have gotten some very discounted offers (but not free) from them.  I too am surprised when I receive their offers.
> 
> While things are slowly picking up, I think it's going to be years before we see a return to the good old days of even a few years ago.
> 
> ...



The surprise for me is that we have never played at a Wynn property. We have eaten at the buffet at the Golden Nugget many years ago when it was a Wynn property prior to Steve Wynn selling out to MGM. We have walked through the Bellagio and Mirage when they were Wynn properties. That is all we have done at any Wynn property.

Yes, I would like to see Las Vegas go back to what it was when the mob ran it but that will never happen. The high prices for food, rooms, etc. are directly a result of them catering to the family business that started in the early 90's. This resulted in the casinos no longer being able to subsidize the hotels and restaurants because many of the people are not gamblers. That is why Steve Wynn said "Catering to the family business is the stupidest thing we ever did". This stupidity can be attributed to the corporations owning the strip as you pointed out.

The California casinos are doing much better. Harrah's Rincon in San Diego County is doing better than any of the Harrah's properties in Las Vegas. When we were at the Agua Caliente casino/resort in Rancho Mirage 2 weeks ago, It was very busy as it has been in our previous trips.


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## dougp26364 (Feb 26, 2010)

John Cummings said:


> Times must still be pretty tough in Las Vegas.
> 
> We just received an offer from Wynn in the mail for a free suite at the Encore and a $50 food credit. This came out of the blue because we have never stayed at a Wynn property nor had a player's card from any of their casinos. It was addressed specifically to me. The offer is valid for the next 4 months. We will pass on it but it was interesting that we received it.



I don't think they're hurting that much. 6 or 7 years ago we use to receive all sorts of offers in the mail. Then they started trickling down until we're at were we are today, nothing. Several years ago Vegas decided to stick with marketing certain areas and not people who actually stay and play at their casino's. As the offers dwindled so did our playing time at casino's we use to frequent. As Vegas began to forget about us, we began to forget about Vegas.

I asked the question one time about why offers to us midwesterns had been curtailed so much and was told they found it more profitable to market to states that were very heavy visitors to Vegas. Namely California and Arizona at the time. The Stratosphere and the Tropicana use to market us at least every other month with discounted rooms or let us know about upcoming specials and tournements. The others maybe once per quarter. I haven't received so much as a postcard from any Vegas casino in over 3 years.

I know we own timeshare but, we use to extend our stays with the hotel/casino's by a couple of days. We enjoyed both extending our vacation and adding the fun of being there in the casino's for a couple of nights. We enjoyed staying in the different hotel/casino's just to have an idea of what each one offered. Some, like Monte Carlo and Ceasers we stayed at multiple times because we really enjoyed our nights there. 

Now we've stopped going to Vegas all together. At one point it was 4 weeks per year or a total of 28 nights per year. We were in the casino's daily, seeing two or three shows and eating out almost every night. Vegas would have a tough time saying that, because we were timeshare owners, we weren't spending any money. All we weren't doing was staying in a heavily discounted room. Otherwise they were getting the same attention from us.

No, I don't think they're hurting that much. I still live at the same address and we had players cards in every casinos. It's not like they shouldn't know where we are. Vegas made the decision to ignore certain markets they didn't think were profitable and concentrate only on those that they thought would support them. At the time it was probably a good decision but now, maybe not so good. What's sad is they STILL have not learned from their mistakes.


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## pedro47 (Feb 26, 2010)

Times are tough in the following tourist cities across our country, Vegas, Orlando, Fl., Colonial Williamsburg,VA., Chicago, Los Angeles and even our nation capital Washington,DC.


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## ricoba (Feb 26, 2010)

Doug, while I can understand your frustration/disappointment or annoyance over feeling "forgotten" by Vegas, that's simply to do with the corporate bean counters.  They now run Vegas and most marketing is geared towards Californian's because without us, there really would be no Vegas as we know it.  

I am sure some corporate suit said....offer deals to the 20 million (or so) Californian's who are a 4 - 6 hour drive from Vegas or offer deals to folks from the Midwest, who have to fly in etc.  To this guy in the suit, it was just simple math, market the weekend party drive over crowd, it's the same mentality that has hurt Vegas in my view.

Thankfully, there are still locals places like Southpoint that are family run and are known for great service and gambling at great prices.

I don't think Vegas should go back to the mob days, but they could learn a lot from Jackie & Michael Gaughan, Sam Boyd and Benny Binion.


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## bigrick (Feb 26, 2010)

John Cummings said:


> ... Yes, I would like to see Las Vegas go *back to what it was when the mob ran it *but that will never happen. ...



Where is the mob when we miss them?  :hysterical: 

(Sorry John, I just couldn't resist.)


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## dougp26364 (Feb 26, 2010)

ricoba said:


> Doug, while I can understand your frustration/disappointment or annoyance over feeling "forgotten" by Vegas, that's simply to do with the corporate bean counters.  They now run Vegas and most marketing is geared towards Californian's because without us, there really would be no Vegas as we know it.
> 
> I am sure some corporate suit said....offer deals to the 20 million (or so) Californian's who are a 4 - 6 hour drive from Vegas or offer deals to folks from the Midwest, who have to fly in etc.  To this guy in the suit, it was just simple math, market the weekend party drive over crowd, it's the same mentality that has hurt Vegas in my view.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree with you. It's just my observation that they're not hurting bad enough yet. At least they haven't awoken to the fact that there's a large group of potential tourists they've been overlooking for some time now. 

When the hurt gets bad enough, maybe they'll start mining some of those forgotten area's of tourism they gave up on because it was to easy to market CA and AZ. 

Now if they bring back gambling junkets.... THEN they're really hurting.


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## Darlene (Feb 27, 2010)

Gee John, all that and you don't even have to go to a timeshare presentation.  It sounds like a great deal to me! :whoopie:


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## John Cummings (Feb 28, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I don't think they're hurting that much. 6 or 7 years ago we use to receive all sorts of offers in the mail. Then they started trickling down until we're at were we are today, nothing. Several years ago Vegas decided to stick with marketing certain areas and not people who actually stay and play at their casino's. As the offers dwindled so did our playing time at casino's we use to frequent. As Vegas began to forget about us, we began to forget about Vegas.



Doug,

You and many others are missing my point. It is not about general offers from Las Vegas. I have received at least 10 of those every week for the past several years. Most of them are from Harrah's properties because I am a Diamond Card member but we also get many others from non-Harrah's properties. Some of them are very good offers but we just throw them away unless it is something really special like the one we did in December for 3 free nights in the Augustas Tower at Caesar's Palace with free premier tickets to the Bette Midler Show. We got the same offer for Cher at Caesar's for April but we tossed that one because there is no way we would go to Las Vegas to see her.

My surprise was that this offer was from Wynn's prime property the Encore for a suite, $50.00 food credit, and 2 free show tickets. In the thousands of offers we have received over the years, we have never received any from a Wynn property. As you are aware, Wynn properties are the prime properties of Las Vegas.

One of our best friends was a VP at the Flamingo. We used to discuss the business aspects of Las Vegas a lot. The targeting of selected areas is nothing new. They have done that for years. They have software that tracks the returns they get from various areas and then concentrate on those that produce the most results. They are tracking how much is spent gambling, not what is spent on other things. If you don't have a player's card then you won't be tracked. The tracking is done with the offers taken. So if somebody accepts an offer then doesn't gamble very much at that property, the offers will cease for that person. If one area doesn't produce much response then they will stop making offers to that area. That really hasn't changed much in the last 10 years. Southern California and Phoenix are prime areas because of the large population and proximity to Las Vegas. However even in these areas, people will stop receiving offers if they take them and don't gamble very much.

The high food and show prices that you see now are directly a result that now a high percentage of Las Vegas visitors don't gamble or do very little. The casinos can no longer subsidize the hotels and restaurants. As I have said repeatedly, this was brought on in the early 90's by catering to the family business.


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## John Cummings (Feb 28, 2010)

You cannot compare properties like South Pointe with the more upscale ones on the strip. They all cater to different clientèles. Each has their own niche. That is also true within Harrah's and MGM's family of properties. Imperial Palace which is Harrah's lowest end property caters to a much lower tier clientèle than Caesar's Palace which is their highest tier property. There are far more Diamond and Seven Star players at Caesar's than there are at the Imperial Palace.

A player that gambles a couple hundred dollars at South Pointe or equivalent property is going go be treated much better than they would at Caesar's Palace. As a Diamond Card member, I am not unique at Caesar's Palace or the Paris but would definitely be at the Imperial Palace. At a property like South Pointe, I would definitely be in the top 1 or 2% of their player's. There is nothing wrong with this. 

To say it is all the fault of some corporate suit is ridiculous. They know what they are doing, except when they did something really stupid like the family business push of the 90's. The big problem with the corporations is that just 2 companies own almost all the properties on the strip. The other stupid thing they did was to believe they could continue to expand like there was no limit, especially as many other gambling locales were proliferating around the country. And of course there is the recession but that is hurting tourism everywhere.

What some of you are complaining about is really the strip properties as you appear to be happy with the ones like South Pointe. We prefer the strip properties like Caesar's Palace and the Paris. As I said, each caters to their own clientèle. I know that breakfast will cost 3 times as much at Caesar's than the South Pointe but I don't care as it is all comped. I know that the slots are looser at South Pointe, etc, but again I don't care because we play for entertainment so we go where we like it.

There is no right or wrong to any of this. Every visitor to Las Vegas should do what they feel is right for them. The casinos also do what they think is best for them. It is called business and that is what a casino is. The reason that we don't go to Las Vegas anymore except for special events has nothing to do with Las Vegas. It is because we have many equally nice or nicer casino resorts here in Southern California within an hours drive.

The freebies, cheap rooms, and food that you used to get years ago in Las Vegas was because they assumed that you were there to gamble so the casino subsidized the freebies etc. Players weren't tracked so they didn't know if you gambled or not. The combination of attracting non-gamblers in the 90's with the technology to track player's made them realize that they were getting a lot of non-gamblers so the subsidization ceased and the restaurants etc. had to earn their own way as did the hotel. 

The Flamingo used to be owned by Hilton. My friend was with them at the time. Hilton owned various properties in Nevada. My Friend used to tell me that Hilton did not know what to do or how to run the Nevada properties so they had a separate informal division for Nevada.  Later on they formalized it and named it Park Place Entertainment which later became Caesar's Entertainment and then was sold to Harrah's.

My friend is an interesting story about living the American Dream. He is from California and started with Hilton at a regular hotel handing out pool towels at the age of 18. He worked hard and advanced rapidly and became supervisor of the front desk at the Flamingo Hilton in Laughlin, NV. Hilton sent him to UNLV where he got a degree in Hospitality. He then became a VP at the Flamingo Hilton. He also worked at other Flamingo Hilton's in Reno and then Las Vegas. He then went to Station Casinos where he took over the Palace Station. All of this done by his early 30's. He is a smart guy who invested wisely. He has since left the business and he and his family are financially independent living in Green Valley by Las Vegas. It just goes to show that hard work and being smart can pay off.


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## Cindala (Feb 28, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> Plus I notice that airfares have recently plummeted - at least in our area. Round trip to FL are at levels we haven't seen since the 70's. Same with Las Vegas and LA.  Great deals right now.  They want to fill the planes and apparently it isn't easy even with the overall capacity decline.




Not from our area!  Just paid $399 for airfare to LV last week for our trip the end of June. Kept watching it for months, hoping it would drop...but it just kept going up. I too thought it would drop based on the economy, guess not from NYC area.


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## pianodinosaur (Feb 28, 2010)

*Remarks by Steve Wynn on Las Vegas Economy*

These remarks by Steve Wynn sum it all up.  I hope that printing this article does not violate the TUGBBS rules. 


Las Vegas Sun
Wynn: Obama’s remarks bad for
convention business
By Amanda Finnegan (contact)
Thursday, Feb. 26, 2009 | 2 a.m.
Steve Wynn touched on more than just finances during Tuesday’s Wynn Resorts earnings call. The
casino owner joined city officials in their criticism of President Obama’s remarks on corporations
spending taxpayer dollars in Las Vegas.
“The president, in what amounted to a slip of the tongue, I imagine, said he doesn’t think the people who
received benefits from the government should be going on junkets to expensive places or Las Vegas for
wasteful spending … which stigmatized the convention business that could come to Las Vegas,” Wynn
said.
Wynn said he’s sure the president didn’t mean to stigmatize all convention and meeting business in Las
Vegas – just trips by those companies that receive federal funds. But it still has an effect on the Las
Vegas economy, including his own resorts, he said.
Wynn said since the president made his remarks, a large corporation that didn’t receive taxpayer dollars
pulled out of a $5 million convention at his resorts.
“It was a direct result of the comment made by the president,” Wynn said. “Whatever the president’s
intentions were, it gives you an idea of how sensitive the public is.”
Wynn didn’t name the company that pulled out but he called the company “one of the healthiest in the
country, much healthier than the government.”
Convention visitors to Las Vegas dropped 5 percent from 2007 to 2008, said Jeremy Handel, spokesman
for the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority.
“In response to the bad economy and the misconceived press out there about the convention industry, we
are developing a campaign in relation to that to express the importance of the meeting industry in Las
Vegas and that Las Vegas is a place where business gets done,” Handel said.
Las Vegas hosted more than 22,000 meetings, conventions and trade shows last year, the LVCVA
reported.
The president’s comments came after Wells Fargo & Co., which received a $25 billion federal bailout,
canceled a conference at two high-end Las Vegas hotels in response to criticism from Congress after
press reports of the company’s lavish trips.
After Obama’s comments, Goldman Sachs Group Inc. moved a three-day conference from Mandalay
Bay to San Francisco, incurring a $600,000 cancellation penalty to skip town. Morgan Stanley, which
has received $10 billion in bailout funds, canceled a trip for top employees to the Monte Carlo.
Wynn: Obama’s remarks bad for convention business - Thursday, Feb. 26, 2009 | 2 a.m. - ... Page 1 of 2
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/feb/26/wynn-obamas-remarks-have-hit-conventio... 2/28/2010
Wynn agreed that Congress needs to be critical of those spending federal bailout money but is afraid
Obama’s remarks have characterized Las Vegas as a place of wasteful spending.
“We have hundreds of thousands of employees here, more than the auto industry. I hope that Uncle Sam
recognizes that and that the rhetoric that is used is more considered in the future because it’s been
demonstrated to us that it can have unintended consequences,” Wynn said.
Las Vegas is one of the most technologically advanced locations to hold meetings, and it’s a value
compared to other cities, Wynn said.
Wynn said he’s created numerous jobs in the city with his Wynn Las Vegas and Encore resorts. He said
the government can’t boast of the same accomplishment.
“I created 4,000 or 5,000 jobs here,” he said. “Does that make us a bad guy? How many new jobs did
Uncle Sam create? Zero. “
Who's linking here?
Bad for Biz - what if? (Sun, Feb 28, 2010 2:52 PM)
© Las Vegas Sun, 2010, All Rights Reserved. Job openings. Published since 1950. Contact us to
report news, errors or for advertising opportunities.
Wynn: Obama’s remarks bad for convention business - Thursday, Feb. 26, 2009 | 2 a.m. - ... Page 2 of 2
http://


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## Robert D (Feb 28, 2010)

John, my guess is that someone at Wynn got a list of Harrah's Diamond card members or maybe someone recently left Harrahs and went to work for Wynn and took your name with them. Especially in this economy a Diamond level member at Harrahs would be the kind of customer that Wynn would like to recruit.  I'm surprised you didn't take them up on their offer - I bet Wynn or Encore would be very nice and a comp to their Circus du Olei (know I spelled that wrong) water show would be a nice incentive to give the place a try. We've been comped to the Augustus Tower at Caesar's but I bet Wynn / Encore is even nicer.


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## kjd (Mar 1, 2010)

Nothing is free in Las Vegas.  "Comps" are usually paid for by your gambling losses.  And usually at a price higher than the value received.  They're not building those mega-casino/hotels because they are losing money at the tables and giving away comps.

It seems to me that they have a definite corporate strategy that puts LV into kind of a holding operation.  Harrah's and MGM are both either building new casino/hotels or buying out existing ones to the point that they own most of the Strip.  At the same time others are spending outside the US with major investments in Macau and Dubai.

LV has major competition from the Indian casinos as well as the new hometown casinos that have popped up in other states over the last ten years.  Corporations like Harrah's and Hard Rock have partnered with many of these new casinos across the US, acting as an operator.  The corporate strategy for LV seems to be to buy up the weak hands, invest money and resources elsewhere and then conduct a holding operation in LV before they consider a new strategy.

It's my impression that a lot of them like Boyd's, Harrah's and MGM don't really care about debt.  They seem to have access to financing although MGM nearly defaulted during the construction of City Center.  Harrah's just purchased Planet Hollywood by buying their debt.

Another good thing from the corporate point of view is that labor costs are getting cheaper as they strangle some of the unions with threats of closures and layoffs.  The corporate game is always to lower costs.  That's why people are complaining about how LV has changed. 

My belief is that these corporations are alive and well in LV but spending their money elsewhere.  They still believe in the "bigger is better" philosophy and want to make a distinction between their hotels on the Strip and the hometown casinos.  They are leaving the "low roller" business to the Indians and casinos in other states.  Many of which they manage.  Don't expect them to change their LV business plan any time soon.


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## John Cummings (Mar 1, 2010)

Robert D said:


> John, my guess is that someone at Wynn got a list of Harrah's Diamond card members or maybe someone recently left Harrahs and went to work for Wynn and took your name with them. Especially in this economy a Diamond level member at Harrahs would be the kind of customer that Wynn would like to recruit.  I'm surprised you didn't take them up on their offer - I bet Wynn or Encore would be very nice and a comp to their Circus du Olei (know I spelled that wrong) water show would be a nice incentive to give the place a try. We've been comped to the Augustus Tower at Caesar's but I bet Wynn / Encore is even nicer.



You are probably correct about Wtnn getting my name. We aren't interested in going to Las Vegas except for very special events.


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## John Cummings (Mar 1, 2010)

kjd said:


> They are leaving the "low roller" business to the Indians and casinos in other states.  Many of which they manage.  Don't expect them to change their LV business plan any time soon.



Actually many of the Southern California casinos are getting a lot of the high roller business. The two casino resorts that we frequent the most are Harrah's Rincon in San Diego County and Agua Caliente in Rancho Mirage ( Palm Springs area ). Harrah's Rincon has far more Diamond and Seven Star players than any of Harrah's Las Vegas properties and has higher revenues.

There are several others in Southern California that get a lot of high rollers and outperform any of the Las Vegas casinos. They get a lot of Asian high rollers as well as others. These are full blown Casino Resorts with all the amenities, etc.

Comps are never free and often come at a high price. One should never play for comps. I view them as perks for doing something that I would do anyway regardless of the comps. To us, it is not getting something for free that we like. It is the non financial perks. We get the best show tickets, don't have to wait in lines at restaurants, Special VIP hotel registration, VIP lounges, Our own executive host that takes care of everything. Those are the nice things.


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