# My potential renter just changed my Marriott reservation! What is going on???



## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

My potential renter called MVC and changed my reservation to a different check-in day. How is this possible? This renter hasn't even paid me yet. Should I call and raise a stink or let it play out?

Marriott is obviously dropping the ball big time with this and the other thread on the II deposit. I have noticed recently that when I call all they ask for is my email address to confirm it is me. It's not like an email address is confidential.


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## sb2313 (Jul 27, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> My potential renter called MVC and changed my reservation to a different check-in day. How is this possible? This renter hasn't even paid me yet. Should I call and raise a stink or let it play out?
> 
> Marriott is obviously dropping the ball big time with this and the other thread on the II deposit. I have noticed recently that when I call all they ask for is my email address to confirm it is me. It's not like an email address is confidential.



I'd call and raise heck. How on earth can that be ok? And also, what's up with your renter? Was it same weekend or completely different weekend? Were they just clearing out your reservation so they could book that date? Not saying that is what happening, but it's a possibility.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 27, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> My potential renter called MVC and changed my reservation to a different check-in day. How is this possible? This renter hasn't even paid me yet. *Should I call and raise a stink or let it play out?*
> 
> Marriott is obviously dropping the ball big time with this and the other thread on the II deposit. I have noticed recently that when I call all they ask for is my email address to confirm it is me. It's not like an email address is confidential.



I don't know why this is even a question.  OF COURSE you should call and ask questions - the security of your account has been compromised!  Skip the Owner Services line and start immediately with Customer Care.  If that doesn't result in an immediate correction and a full explanation, escalate this to  Executive Leadership.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

I am definitely going to call the guy that changed it but here is an email that he just sent me. It looks like he made a very ill advised judgement call that I do not think MVCI allows.



> Mr {saintsfanfl},
> 
> I spoke to Mr {John Doe} this morning about changing the date of check in for your Lakeshore Reserve week that Mr {Doe} is staying on. I tried reaching you at (555) 555-5555, but there was no answer. Since I saw that {John Doe} was already on the reservation, I changed the dates to Feb 16th-23rd 2017 at his request due to his daughters schedule conflict. This change did not cost anything, but thought I would inform you of that change.
> 
> ...


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

sb2313 said:


> I'd call and raise heck. How on earth can that be ok? And also, what's up with your renter? Was it same weekend or completely different weekend? Were they just clearing out your reservation so they could book that date? Not saying that is what happening, but it's a possibility.



Different check-in day same week. I've been going back and forth with this potential renter for weeks. I wanted his deposit before I changed the check-in day. I called a few days ago and his day wasn't available. Apparently it is now unless this rep somehow used the DC points inventory. I would have made the change myself so I am not totally ticked off but the rep absolutely has no authority to change a reservation on the request of an added guest in the footnotes.

How did the rep even know the guy on the phone was the name of the guest? It is not like he knew any other personal details except the name, which isn't enough for an owner to change a reservation themselves. Maybe MR number info? Still though. Crazy.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 27, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> I am definitely going to call the guy that changed it but here is an email that he just sent me. It looks like he made a very ill advised judgement call that I do not think MVCI allows.
> 
> 
> > Mr {saintsfanfl},
> ...



If you haven't been paid yet, why is the potential renter's name already on your reservation?


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

SueDonJ said:


> If you haven't been paid yet, why is the potential renter's name already on your reservation?



I meant he hasn't paid in full. I always add their name after they pay a $100 deposit. It gives renters some assurance on not being scammed. You can change or remove the name if they don't end up paying the balance owed.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 27, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> I meant he hasn't paid in full. I always add their name after they pay a $100 deposit. It gives renters some assurance on not being scammed. You can change or remove the name if they don't end up paying the rest.



Ah, now I get it.  Thanks.  That's still no excuse for somebody at MVW to make a change in your account on your guest's behalf without your knowledge or permission.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

SueDonJ said:


> Ah, now I get it.  Thanks.



I made the story short and left out some details. It's been about 30 emails back and forth with this guy. I guess that happens sometimes but in the future I don't think I am offering to try and change a reservation date unless they are locked up and paid in full and then their needs change.


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## Bill4728 (Jul 27, 2016)

Clearly MVC should not have done this BUT they did send you an Email telling you about this

My biggest thing would be "Do I want this kind of renter who things he can call the resort and make changes to the reservation without my OKing it"


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## Luvtoride (Jul 27, 2016)

Unless you don't get paid in full for the week, I really don't understand what your concern is.  If the change of check in date accommodates the renter better and you didn't have to get involved in calling on their behalf to do it why is this an issue?  If you like many on here don't use their weeks and instead choose to rent them, sell them, give them away, shouldn't this process be as easy and flexible as possible to accommodate everyone.  If Marriott has somehow breached some security of your account without proper authorization, then I'd bring that up to someone higher up in the MVCI hierarchy.
Hope full payment comes through when due.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

Luvtoride said:


> Unless you don't get paid in full for the week, I really don't understand what your concern is.  If the change of check in date accommodates the renter better and you didn't have to get involved in calling on their behalf to do it why is this an issue?  If you like many on here don't use their weeks and instead choose to rent them, sell them, give them away, shouldn't this process be as easy and flexible as possible to accommodate everyone.  If Marriott has somehow breached some security of your account without proper authorization, then I'd bring that up to someone higher up in the MVCI hierarchy.
> Hope full payment comes through when due.



In this specific particular instance it is ok but the problem is there is no way for the rep to know whether it was ok or not. He was guessing. What if this renter's deposit check bounced and I was about to call and take his name off??

No way in heck do I want any Tom, Dick, or Jane calling up MVCI and changing my reservations. Who would want that???


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

Bill4728 said:


> My biggest thing would be "Do I want this kind of renter who things he can call the resort and make changes to the reservation without my OKing it"



Believe me I questioned whether I wanted this renter about 15 emails and two weeks ago but I am very customer service oriented so since I went down that path I was not going to abandon him.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 27, 2016)

Luvtoride said:


> Unless you don't get paid in full for the week, I really don't understand what your concern is.  If the change of check in date accommodates the renter better and you didn't have to get involved in calling on their behalf to do it why is this an issue? * If you like many on here don't use their weeks and instead choose to rent them, sell them, give them away, shouldn't this process be as easy and flexible as possible to accommodate everyone.*  If Marriott has somehow breached some security of your account without proper authorization, then I'd bring that up to someone higher up in the MVCI hierarchy.
> Hope full payment comes through when due.



About what's bolded, no.  NO, because account processes are not supposed to be "easy and flexible" for everybody.  Our accounts are supposed to be safe and secure according to the owner protections that are contractually-bestowed to us by MVW.  "Easy and flexible" might be more convenient but it's definitely not in our best interests, IMO.


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## Luvtoride (Jul 27, 2016)

SueDonJ said:


> About what's bolded, no.  NO, because account processes are not supposed to be "easy and flexible" for everybody.  Our accounts are supposed to be safe and secure according to the owner protections that are contractually-bestowed to us by MVW.  "Easy and flexible" might be more convenient but it's definitely not in our best interests, IMO.



Susan, than why should anyone complain about the issues of trying to sell them to 3rd parties that you don't know and have little way of vetting as to their character and how they will handle the transaction?


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## SueDonJ (Jul 27, 2016)

Luvtoride said:


> Susan, than why should anyone complain about the issues of trying to sell them to 3rd parties that you don't know and have little way of vetting as to their character and how they will handle the transaction?



I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly?  Do you mean that we should be against owner rentals, because rentals result in unknown third parties being involved with our timeshares?  I suppose there are quite a few owners who don't like rentals but their dislike isn't relevant because the governing docs allow rentals.  (If I'm reading you wrong, please correct me.  )

That's my sticking point, always.  MVW expects us to follow the rules of our ownerships as they're stipulated in the governing docs.  It's entirely reasonable that we should be able to trust them to also follow the rules, including those that are supposed to safeguard our ownerships.


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## bazzap (Jul 27, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Believe me I questioned whether I wanted this renter about 15 emails and two weeks ago but I am very customer service oriented so since I went down that path I was not going to abandon him.


Your patience is certainly admirable.
From my perspective, you have gone way above and beyond what anyone could reasonably consider to be a very customer service orientated approach in trying to meet this potential renters changing requirements.
And in return, you have had hassle, used a lot of your valuable time, had the potential renter make changes through MVC without asking you, had MVC make changes without your prior approval and still you don't know for sure that the potential renter will pay the balance.
I really hope it all works out well for you.
As you suggest, this has been quite an experience for you and should be a salutory lesson for us all when considering and planning potential future rentals.
Good luck and thank you for sharing.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

The rep was away from his desk so I sent him an email. He called me and said that normally what he did they never do. He said the guy sounded trusting and his name was on there so he took a leap of faith. He could have changed it back to my original check-in day if I wanted. 

The renter did lie to him though but perhaps not intentionally. He said it was my idea that he call and change it. I never suggested that but to be honest there is a bit of a communication barrier with this guy. He also said he had paid me in full. It could be that he mailed the check but I don't have it yet. 

Obviously what happened should not really have happened and the rep fully admitted that. Imagine if I did not agree to it and was not ok with it and I was not able to access my email for a few days and then my needed check-in day was gone. This is why nobody in their right mind would be ok with this as a general rule.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 27, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> The rep was away from his desk so I sent him an email. He called me and said that normally what he did they never do. He said the guy sounded trusting and his name was on there so he took a leap of faith. He could have changed it back to my original check-in day if I wanted.
> 
> The renter did lie to him though but perhaps not intentionally. He said it was my idea that he call and change it. I never suggested that but to be honest there is a bit a communication barrier with this guy. He also said he had paid me in full. It could be that he mailed the check but I don't have it yet.
> 
> Obviously what happened should not really have happened and the rep fully admitted that. Imagine if I did not agree to it and was not ok with it and I was not able to access my email for a few days and then my needed check-in day was gone. This is why nobody in their right mind would be ok with this as a general rule.



Quite honestly, I don't care whether this works out for your rental business or not.

This now makes two security breaches in owner accounts in less than a week.  That's simply not acceptable.  I believe that those who are direct beneficiaries of these breaches should be involving the correct people at MVW who are in a position to make sure that these breaches are recognized and acknowledged, and that they will not continue to happen.  I also believe that the direct beneficiaries are due compensation for these breaches regardless of whether they're monetarily harmed or not.  Think of it in terms of a lawsuit where companies are found negligent and judgments are levied against them specifically as deterrents.  That's not an unreasonable expectation.

If your concern is that the employee with whom you're working will be reprimanded, I don't care about that either.  Employees who are not actively and consistently safeguarding our accounts SHOULD be reprimanded.

***
I hope that TUGgers understand but I have now called MVW's attention to this and the other thread detailing the other security breach.  An an owner I am genuinely spitting mad that these situations have occurred and I believe that MVW owes all of us owners an explanation.


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## Quilter (Jul 27, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> I made the story short and left out some details. It's been about 30 emails back and forth with this guy. I guess that happens sometimes but in the future I don't think I am offering to try and change a reservation date unless they are locked up and paid in full and then their needs change.


Just wondering, since you left out some details, did you in any of the conversations with renter tell him he could call MVC to check the availability of his preferred dates?  Was it agreed that he would pay balance only if  date was changed?

Even if you had the MVC rep should have advised renter that the owner would have to be on the phone to make the change.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

SueDonJ said:


> Quite honestly, I don't care whether this works out for your rental business or not.
> 
> This now makes two security breaches in owner accounts in less than a week.  That's simply not acceptable.  I believe that those who are direct beneficiaries of these breaches should be involving the correct people at MVW who are in a position to make sure that these breaches are recognized and acknowledged, and that they will not continue to happen.  I also believe that the direct beneficiaries are due compensation for these breaches regardless of whether they're monetarily harmed or not.  Think of it in terms of a lawsuit where companies are found negligent and judgments are levied against them specifically as deterrents.  That's not an unreasonable expectation.
> 
> If your concern is that the employee with whom you're working will be reprimanded, I don't care about that either.  Employees who are not actively and consistently safeguarding our accounts SHOULD be reprimanded.



I don't disagree with you in principal but I am not going to be the one to bark up the chain. I have way too many other things going on. I know this may frustrate you as I am the only one who can call and complain on this particular issue and I sympathize with your frustration but I'm just not going to do it.

I do think that what happened in my case is similar to what happened with the II deposit. I don't think it had anything to do with II. Someone at Marriott approved the deposit. All II does is send the request for approval. They do not know who owns the reservation or the unit. The account it is being deposited to just has to have the same type of unit ownership. For example anyone who owns a single unit at any of the five Florida Club properties can deposit any week in any season at any of the five properties in their account as long as Marriott approves that the reservation can be deposited.


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## DeniseM (Jul 27, 2016)

All I can say is WOW!  This is completely beyond the pale!


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## SueDonJ (Jul 27, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> I don't disagree with you in principal but I am not going to be the one to bark up the chain. I have way too many other things going on. I know this may frustrate you as I am the only one who can call and complain on this particular issue and I sympathize with your frustration but I'm just not going to do it.
> 
> I do think that what happened in my case is similar to what happened with the II deposit. I don't think it had anything to do with II. Someone at Marriott approved the deposit. All II does is send the request for approval. They do not know who owns the reservation or the unit. The account it is being deposited to just has to have the same type of unit ownership. For example anyone who owns a single unit at any of the five Florida Club properties can deposit any week in any season at any of the five properties in their account as long as Marriott approves that the reservation can be deposited.



Respectfully, you're not the only one who can contact MVW about these breaches, and as you can see by my edited post I am concerned enough to have done just that.  All of us owners have a vested interest in these security breaches.


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## presley (Jul 27, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> The renter did lie to him though but perhaps not intentionally. He said it was my idea that he call and change it. I never suggested that but to be honest there is a bit of a communication barrier with this guy. He also said he had paid me in full. It could be that he mailed the check but I don't have it yet.



2 red flags after you already felt like the deal wasn't worth it 15 emails ago. Personally, I do not trust your renter. I hope things work out, but I would be sending back the deposit and cancelling the agreement. I'm not telling you what I think you should do. I'm only saying what I would do in the same situation.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

Quilter said:


> Just wondering, since you left out some details, did you in any of the conversations with renter tell him he could call MVC to check the availability of his preferred dates?  Was it agreed that he would pay balance only if  date was changed?
> 
> Even if you had the MVC rep should have advised renter that the owner would have to be on the phone to make the change.



I never once suggested that he call MVC. I didn't think it would be possible for him to speak on any matters whatsoever since he is not an MVC owner of any nature. It never crossed my mind that they would be willing to discuss anything with him except an inquiry to make a purchase or attend a presentation.

Originally he wanted to know all the dates in the entire calendar that I could change the reservation to. I was not willing to do this so I explained he needed to tell me what he wanted but before I changed the reservation I wanted a $100 deposit. I explained it would be pointless for me to call because it might not be available by the time he paid and I tried to make the change. 

He wanted week 52 but I explained that Premier Platinum cannot book 51/52 because Marriott screwed up and left those with regular Platinum. He did not seem to understand anything I was stating. He thought it meant Silver/Gold/Platinum rewards levels.

He then was ok with the President's Week but needed Mon. I explained that weeks owners cannot book a Monday check-in at Lakeshore. He couldn't understand why no matter what. He then wanted Thursday. I said I am able to book Thur check-ins but I would not try and change the rez until I had his deposit. At this point I was not willing to call MVC until I had his check because so many emails and changes and not understanding.

His check arrives but I don't deposit it yet. I then get an email from him stating that he booked his flights and he will take Thur. I call MVC and no other check-in day is available. I email him the bad news and he rants about not understanding and he paid $3,000 for flights. I thoroughly walk though what happened and our prior communication and remind him of what I had already told him of the process.

I still had not deposited his $100 check because if I couldn't change to his liking I was not going to charge him.

I thought he was gone then a few days later he emails me and says "so what I am understanding is I can still have the Sun to Sun". I state yes and he wants it so I add his name to the reservation and email him the rental agreement.

Two hours ago I received this email. Read it and you will get the full understanding of what I have been going through with this guy. He definitely means well and I feel for him but I don't think I am ever changing existing reservations in the future prior to agreement. 



> Hi saintsfanfl I call Marriott Vacation Club bonus services they do have availability for that Thursday the just going to call you to confirm the let you know that I would like to change it its about 11 o'clock 11:15 on Wednesday morning so the just giving you a heads up that I like to change it to the Thursday the Thursday and there is availability they just want to let you know that I'm changing it please confirm that and just send me an email back that you received this email and the call thank you very much than if you like you could call me at +555-555-555-5555 to 55555 5 and explain why my daughters in a chili and competition and it ends that Tuesday I don't want to fly back to New York and in fact the Florida on Sunday trying to make a long vacation of it thank you


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

presley said:


> 2 red flags after you already felt like the deal wasn't worth it 15 emails ago. Personally, I do not trust your renter. I hope things work out, but I would be sending back the deposit and cancelling the agreement. I'm not telling you what I think you should do. I'm only saying what I would do in the same situation.



If he had ever been rude at any point I would do that. The truth is that even though he may not understand the process and has been extremely high maintenance he seems like a nice guy and means well.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

SueDonJ said:


> Respectfully, you're not the only one who can contact MVW about these breaches, and as you can see by my edited post I am concerned enough to have done just that.  All of us owners have a vested interest in these security breaches.



Acknowledged.


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## VegasBella (Jul 27, 2016)

Email address is not enough. Marriott should be using multiple methods to verify that the person they speak to is the owner.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

I just got a much more clear email from the renter. That crazy email with no periods was done voice to text to email while driving. That makes more sense. I was wondering what the heck??? The emails back and forth have been alot but not quite like. That email was pure nuts!

I questioned him on him telling the rep the rental was paid in full and he does claim that he mailed the payment yesterday.

Never use voice to text while driving to communicate business matters. Who knows what can come out? (Daughter in cheer leading rather than a chili competition )


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> Email address is not enough. Marriott should be using multiple methods to verify that the person they speak to is the owner.



They used to but in the last month I have only been asked my email on every single call. Perhaps they are looking at the caller ID for my phone on record as well.

Even when they used to ask for address and such I put that on my rental agreement as well. I don't know if they were ever very secure on someone calling and pretending to be an owner. I think they could use some work in that regard. 

My issue though was not that my renter pretended to be me but I definitely thought that's what happened when I first saw the change in my account. I thought that was more likely than a rep allowing someone else to make the change.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 27, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> Email address is not enough. Marriott should be using multiple methods to verify that the person they speak to is the owner.



In this case the MVW rep knew that he wasn't speaking with the owner but with the owner's guest, yet he still took it upon himself to make the requested changes to the owner's reservation without the owner's knowledge or consent.

When calling in I am usually asked to verify the mailing address of my account as well as my email address, and I know that their system recognizes any of my telephone numbers that are attached to my account.  I haven't ever felt as though they're not being secure enough, until this week.

It's worth noting that both of these breaches occurred with owner rental activity - they're a definite concern for all owners but I don't understand how any owners who engage in that activity can be complacent about this.  I'm furious!


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

SueDonJ said:


> In this case the MVW rep knew that he wasn't speaking with the owner but with the owner's guest, yet he still took it upon himself to make the requested changes to the owner's reservation without the owner's knowledge or consent.



This quote by the rep is what puzzled me so much:



> at his request due to his daughters schedule conflict.



As if the reason has anything to do with anything whatsoever. For obvious reason he wants me to deal with him directly if I end up having any issue with this renter going forward.

I am fairly certain it is going to work out but I also 100% agree that that is not the point.

This is the email that I had sent the rep before he called me back:



> Hi {Jack},
> 
> I tried to call you. I know you were trying to help and offer great customer service but should an added guest name have the ability to change an owners reservation? I do not want it changed back because it will probably work out but my issue is the reservation probably should not have been changed without my specific request. This is a potential renter that has not yet signed an agreement or paid in full. I required that they pay a $100 deposit before I attempted the change which they have paid so I would have approved the change.
> 
> ...



Another side note. The renter told the rep that he had paid me in full. He did not tell the rep that there is no way that I could have received it yet. Had he told the rep that then the rep wouldn't have made the change. But therein lies the obvious problem on so many levels.


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## VegasBella (Jul 27, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> I just got a much more clear email from the renter. That crazy email with no periods was done voice to text to email while driving. That makes more sense. I was wondering what the heck??? The emails back and forth have been alot but not quite like. That email was pure nuts!



I've done a lot of voice to text. You have to say the word for the punctuation you want. Example: "Please change my reservation period. I would prefer to travel on these dates colon June 3rd through August 7th." You sound crazy when you talk but the text comes out more correctly.


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## Seaport104 (Jul 27, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> Email address is not enough. Marriott should be using multiple methods to verify that the person they speak to is the owner.



Agree and I really don't think they do a good job of this. They just ask for email and address which is pretty easy to get. I like Hilton's system where they ask you 1 of 3 security questions that is not tied to anything that is not public information.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

Seaport104 said:


> Agree and I really don't think they do a good job of this. They just ask for email and address which is pretty easy to get. I like Hilton's system where they ask you 1 of 3 security questions that is not tied to anything that is not public information.



It can't just be me. I don't think they are asking for the address anymore. I have had several calls to MVC in the last few weeks and I was not asked for my address by any of those reps.

That's what is crazy about this issue. An owner can't call and just give a name and make a change. They need an email and hopefully also the caller ID. But the guest could call and make the change. The guest did what I couldn't even do! Would the rep have changed it back if he never heard back from me? It is pretty clear from the communication that the change would have remained.


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## Quilter (Jul 27, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> I never once suggested that he call MVC. I didn't think it would be possible for him to speak on any matters whatsoever since he is not an MVC owner of any nature. It never crossed my mind that they would be willing to discuss anything with him except an inquiry to make a purchase or attend a presentation .



When I add my renters name to a contract I forward them a copy of the new email I get fro MVC but I first delete everything from the MR info down.  I tell the renter they can call MVC and verify their name is on the contract.  MVC reps have told me this is perfectly fine.  I get full payment upfront before adding their name.   

Because of the other similar thread I will be adding their name as a guest, not the primary occupant.  Sometimes I have had MVC take my name off the reservation and only have the renters name showing.  Not going to be my practice in the future.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

Quilter said:


> When I add my renters name to a contract I forward them a copy of the new email I get fro MVC but I first delete everything from the MR info down.  I tell the renter they can call MVC and verify their name is on the contract.  MVC reps have told me this is perfectly fine.  I get full payment upfront before adding their name.
> 
> Because of the other similar thread I will be adding their name as a guest, not the primary occupant.  Sometimes I have had MVC take my name off the reservation and only have the renters name showing.  Not going to be my practice in the future.



I always forward the email and remove some of the info. The only difference in your first paragraph is I do not require full payment first. I have never had an issue but if ever do I am perfectly fine with keeping the $100 down payment and finding another renter.

I have never added a name as a primary occupant and I did not even know that was possible. MVC has never asked me they just add the name as a guest in the additional details section. If you do have MVC take your name off and add the renter as the actual owner of the reservation can it ever be undone by you? I would never want to do that but just curious.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 27, 2016)

I find this one a little more disturbing than the reservation that was deposited in to II. This does seem to be a case where the Owner Services rep knew they probably shouldn't do this but did it any way. Good that they sent the email, but not good that they made the change without the owners consent. Though at least in this case there is a means for the OP to fix it, in the case of the II deposit, it is gone. The II deposit seems to be a process is broken, in this new case, the process just wasn't followed.


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## ilene13 (Jul 27, 2016)

I find what both the renter and Marriott did as reprehensible.  IMHO I also think it is crazy to add the renter's name to the reservation without full payment.  I often rent out weeks and in the contract that I use it specifically states that as soon as payment in full is received their name will be added to the reservation.  It keeps anything like this from happening.


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## Old Hickory (Jul 27, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> Email address is not enough. Marriott should be using multiple methods to verify that the person they speak to is the owner.



That might require talking among humans.  Who does that?


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

ilene13 said:


> I find what both the renter and Marriott did as reprehensible.  IMHO I also think it is crazy to add the renter's name to the reservation without full payment.  I often rent out weeks and in the contract that I use it specifically states that as soon as payment in full is received their name will be added to the reservation.  It keeps anything like this from happening.



But you can always take their name back off. I would now agree with you though after this experience. Never in my wildest dreams did I think the guest could change anything. 

I will probably rethink my process of adding the name before full payment and instead forward them my reservation without their name added. Not sure yet but I am leaning that direction.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 27, 2016)

In most cases II and Marriott can tell from the phone number you are calling from if you are likely who you claim to be. Any time I call, they just ask me for my details to just make sure their system is up to date. I suppose they are validating my identify, but in the world we live in today, there isn't much someone couldn't find out about me with just my last name. I have never tried calling from an unregistered phone number to see if they vet me out more.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

Here is the email from the rep after I emailed him questioning why he changed it. I actually got his call immediately after the email and referenced our conversation earlier in the thread but I did not notice this email.



> When I spoke to Mr Doe, he said that he had paid you what you were asking, in full. I can still change it back to Feb 19th-26th, if you want. I was just trusting him, since I saw Mr Doe’s name on the reservation when he called.
> 
> The Thursday Feb 16-23rd 2017 availability must have just came available. No, typically we would not change the date for a Third party request, but I was just trusting of Mr Doe. He said he spoke to you about the date change, and that making a bunch of calls ( me call you, then you call him back about the date, then he call us, etc). He said this was your idea for me to just change it. I called to confirm that, and got your voicemail.
> 
> I am sorry that I changed it without personally speaking to you, and I still see Feb 19th-26th 2017 as a date I can book again. I will try calling you now.



His line of thinking is obviously disturbing and clear reasoning for never adding a guest name until there is a locked up agreement that is fully paid for. I did not know this rep from Adam but he took it upon himself to trust someone else that he doesn't know at all and make a change that at any moment cannot be undone. Not to beat a dead horse but it's really strange.


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## Bill4728 (Jul 27, 2016)

Just being the Devil's advocate,  if somehow this whole thing falls apart the week with a Thursday checkin will likely be much harder to rent again than a week with a weekend checkin.

I'd inform him of this and tell him the whole deal is now fully non-refundable

Bill


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## billymach4 (Jul 27, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Here is the email from the rep after I emailed him questioning why he changed it. I actually got his call immediately after the email and referenced our conversation earlier in the thread but I did not notice this email.
> 
> 
> 
> His line of thinking is obviously disturbing and clear reasoning for never adding a guest name until there is a locked up agreement that is fully paid for. I did not know this rep from Adam but he took it upon himself to trust someone else that he doesn't know at all and make a change that at any moment cannot be undone. Not to beat a dead horse but it's really strange.




This is absurd!

A timeshare week has a monetary value associated with it. It should be treated like $CASH$. Can you imagine I call your bank and tell them that you have earmarked a payment for me. They see the payment going out on the 30th. Then I call and say oh well I don't need that payment until the next week. Go ahead and change it because the teller can verify that I am indeed the payee, you are the payer, but because the chain of custody, and authenticity of the request is such a PIA, I the banker will trust the payee to make the change.

There must be an elevated level of Information Security, authorization, and verification before Marriott should trust the occupant to make the change.  Obviously they do not have the proper authorization mechanism in place to ensure this will not happen again. 

What would have happened if Marriott did not have the availability in the inventory to reverse the change? You may have been screwed! 

I hope Marriott is reading this.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 27, 2016)

Perhaps the TUG advice of accepting a $100 deposit and then changing the reservation to the guest's name should be CHANGED TO ... "AFTER full payment and that payment clearing, the reservation then is CHANGED to the GUEST'S name".

As I don't own Marriott ... I own Wyndham who charges me $99 to ADD a GUEST (after a scant few "free" Guest Certificates) ... I always REQUIRED FULL and PAYMENT cleared (4-10 days for standard checks), 2 business days for cashier's check and I cash the US POST MONEY ORDERS at the POST OFFICES. (My local post office does a thriving business in selling money orders - hence, they almost always can cash them on demand).

So my preferred payment is via USPS Money Orders. Recommend certified mail (with online tracking for the renter) sent to my USPS Post Office box.

If by personal check, I allow 10 days ... seems that is about the maximum the bank will back charge you for a personal check. DO NOT BELIEVE the teller, who quotes the check as clearing the NEXT DAY ... they checks aren't even thru the Fed for several days .. much less cleared via banks 3000 miles away ... as being bogus or insufficient funds. 

And HOW MANY Federal Bank districts are in the USA? 12. So money being gamed by being transferred between 3 or more districts will take a bit to unravel.


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## billymach4 (Jul 27, 2016)

dioxide45 said:


> In most cases II and Marriott can tell from the phone number you are calling from if you are likely who you claim to be. Any time I call, they just ask me for my details to just make sure their system is up to date. I suppose they are validating my identify, but in the world we live in today, there isn't much someone couldn't find out about me with just my last name. I have never tried calling from an unregistered phone number to see if they vet me out more.



I suspect that this is just a cursory check. There should be a hard stop on the system to verify authenticity. Some key piece of information that I the owner must tell Marriott to pass into their system. This way even the person in front of the screen can't move forward unless I the owner give them the correct key.

Again this is a product that has value. Should be treated with proper checks and  balances.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 27, 2016)

Bill4728 said:


> Just being the Devil's advocate,  if somehow this whole thing falls apart the week with a Thursday checkin will likely be much harder to rent again than a week with a weekend checkin.
> 
> I'd inform him of this and tell him the whole deal is now fully non-refundable
> 
> Bill



I don't offer refunds anyway. Once I get his funds in my bank and they clear then I'm good. I realize Thur is not as valuable and I actually told the renter this specifically as the reason why I needed a deposit first.

I bought this unit for the free usage at Lakeshore as a local. It is very valueable to us. I only need to break even on the rental which is easy to do for Spring weeks even at Lakeshore's massive annual fees. My price was great which is why this guy pushed so hard for it. I kept telling him to find another listing that works for him but apparently he found a way to take matters into his own hands with the help from MVC.


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## spaulino (Jul 27, 2016)

Since this is a discussion of "renting" an owned week... Where can i find a guide for renting my week? Sorry if this is not the right place to post this. I just booked my week and not sure if i will use it for next year or deposit or rent it.... But if I do decide to rent it, where can I get such agreement that you guys are talking about? Or is this just a document that I can type up and signed by renter? 

And thanks everyone cuz from reading on this thread, i now know some "dos" and "donts"...  

And Full payment by renter is a must before adding their name on the reservation.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 27, 2016)

How about we simply demand that MVW and II reps protect our accounts as they are charged with doing by virtue of the owner protections that are written into our contractual relationships?  How about we expect them to follow the governing documents stipulations in the same way that they expect us to follow them?  I don't understand all the mental gymnastics now being discussed when this is not our problem to solve!  MVW's (and II's in the other security breach matter) system failed the owners.  This is THEIR problem to solve!

The "deposit first, guest name added, full payment required within XX days" formula that owners have been using with their private rentals has worked for years, is still working with all of the other timeshare companies that allow owner rentals.  It will continue to work with Marriott owner rentals as long as MVW follows procedure.

I usually have a very difficult time finding MVW completely and totally at fault when unhappy owners come to TUG and share tales of woe; in nearly all cases I'm able to envision how the problems turn out to be misunderstandings on the part of owners.  That's not to say that MVW doesn't share any of the blame but it's very rare that they deserve all of it, which is certainly the case with these two security breaches.  Honestly, I'm trying very hard to not lose sight of the fact that these two blatant security breaches are the only two that have been reported to TUG in all the years I've been here.  But these couldn't be any worse, and MVW needs to take responsibility and corrective action for them.  Again, these are not OUR problems to solve.  Don't take on the responsibility for them, and don't let MVW off the hook for them.


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## Quilter (Jul 27, 2016)

spaulino said:


> Since this is a discussion of "renting" an owned week... Where can i find a guide for renting my week? Sorry if this is not the right place to post this. I just booked my week and not sure if i will use it for next year or deposit or rent it.... But if I do decide to rent it, where can I get such agreement that you guys are talking about? Or is this just a document that I can type up and signed by renter?
> 
> And thanks everyone cuz from reading on this thread, i now know some "dos" and "donts"...
> 
> And Full payment by renter is a must before adding their name on the reservation.



Sent you the one I use in a PM


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## dioxide45 (Jul 28, 2016)

vacationhopeful said:


> If by personal check, I allow 10 days ... seems that is about the maximum the bank will back charge you for a personal check. DO NOT BELIEVE the teller, who quotes the check as clearing the NEXT DAY ... they checks aren't even thru the Fed for several days .. much less cleared via banks 3000 miles away ... as being bogus or insufficient funds.
> 
> And HOW MANY Federal Bank districts are in the USA? 12. So money being gamed by being transferred between 3 or more districts will take a bit to unravel.



Keep in mind that with Check 21, they no longer process checks my sending physical checks through courier or the mail like they used to before 9/11. Banks now process most of their checks from images and they clear within a couple of days. 3000 miles away or only 100.

Many banks of course will make funds available to the depositor the next day, but they will take the funds back if the check is NSF after it goes through the Federal Reserve and is processed by the other bank.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 28, 2016)

That process and timeframe holds true for honest checks. Unfortunately the system still lacks in regards to checks that are intentionally fraudulent and these are the checks we should be most worried about. 

The most common scam check is going to look like a US check but the routing number will point to a bank in a far away place and it won't go through the Fed. The account number will be fake. These are the checks used by the Craigslist scammers that want shipping or taxes paid back from the fake check. You will think the funds completely cleared but then 10 days go by and the money comes back out.

If someone has any suspicion at all that a check is not legitimate they should verify the routing number. It doesn't hurt to always verify the name, address, bank name, adress, and routing number of any check you deal with from an online customer.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 28, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> That process and timeframe holds true for honest checks. Unfortunately the system still lacks in regards to checks that are intentionally fraudulent and these are the checks we should be most worried about.
> 
> The most common scam check is going to look like a US check but the routing number will point to a bank in a far away place and it won't go through the Fed. The account number will be fake. These are the checks used by the Craigslist scammers that want shipping or taxes paid back from the fake check. *You will think the funds completely cleared but then 10 days go by and the money comes back out.*
> 
> If someone has any suspicion at all that a check is not legitimate they should verify the routing number. It doesn't hurt to always verify the name, address, bank name, address, and routing number of any check you deal with from an online customer.



Thanks for the updated info. My new policy is 14 days to clear or USPS money order or cashier's check from a big brand.... to do a direct teller local withdraw.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 28, 2016)

vacationhopeful said:


> Thanks for the updated info. My new policy is 14 days to clear or USPS money order or cashier's check from a big brand.... to do a direct teller local withdraw.



I think 14 days is wise. Banks are allowed to put a 7 business day hold on a deposit of a bad customer. That's 11 actual days if the deposit is made on a Thu or Fri. If the bank thinks a deposit might be at risk for that long then it is a possibility. It could be even longer for a small foreign that only uses paper checks but the bank just can't withhold funds any longer.


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## spaulino (Jul 28, 2016)

Quilter said:


> Sent you the one I use in a PM



Thanks! I got just read it and its pretty straight forward and simple.

Has anyone thought of just using PayPal.me for easier payments? Its cash and youbdont need to wait for check to clear. Renter can use credit card too.


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## DeniseM (Jul 28, 2016)

spaulino said:


> Thanks! I got just read it and its pretty straight forward and simple.
> 
> Has anyone thought of just using PayPal.me for easier payments? Its cash and youbdont need to wait for check to clear. Renter can use credit card too.



Many people use Paypal for timeshare rentals.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 28, 2016)

spaulino said:


> Thanks! I got just read it and its pretty straight forward and simple.
> 
> Has anyone thought of just using PayPal.me for easier payments? Its *cash* and you *dont need to wait* for check to clear. Renter can use credit card too.



Paypal is not cash. It is a method for an electronic transfer. Someone with a bank and cc linked and verified account can still use an e-check for an instant transfer. That e-check can still bounce and get reversed just like everything else. If they use a credit card they can still file a dispute over a very long period of time. 

Paypal is by no means fool proof or scam proof but they do make it quicker and easier. I always offer that option for the deposit and even the final payment but most of my renters like to send checks which is what I prefer anyway. I only do a handful of rentals a year.


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## DeniseM (Jul 28, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Paypal is not cash. It is a method for an electronic transfer. Someone with a bank and cc linked and verified account can still use an e-check for an instant transfer. That e-check can still bounce and get reversed just like everything else. Paypal just makes it quicker and easier.



Actually - a renter can make a "cash" payment with Paypal.  They are transferring funds from their Paypal Acct. to your Paypal Acct.  No credit card or bank account are involved.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 28, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> Actually - a renter can make a "cash" payment with Paypal.  They are transferring funds from their Paypal Acct. to your Paypal Acct.  No credit card or bank account are involved.



That is true but can you actually tell or even control which method they use? If not then it is a moot point. I never keep a balance in Paypal. 

Even if you could tell and demand that the customer use a "paypal cash balance" transfer that seems like it would be bad for business and raise red flags to the customer.


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## DeniseM (Jul 28, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> That is true but can you actually tell or even control which method they use? If not then it is a moot point. I never keep a balance in Paypal.
> 
> Even if you could tell and demand that the customer use a "paypal cash balance" transfer that seems like it would be bad for business and raise red flags to the customer.



I'm not suggesting that you should - I'm just explaining how it works. 

I have used Paypal for years, and so far (knock on wood) it has worked well for collecting rental payments.

There is no "perfect," payment method, unless you require the renter to wire the money to you, or pay cash, or send you a money order - and that makes you look like a scammer.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 28, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> I'm not suggesting that you should - I'm just explaining how it works.
> 
> I have used Paypal for years, and so far (knock on wood) it has worked well for collecting rental payments.



I take paypal too. My main point is that the payment can still get reversed. 

I am not fond of taking a credit card payment for a decent amount of money. The renter can dispute up to a crazy amount of time. I used to think that if the rental was far off I was safe but the law requires the dispute period clock to start from the promise delivery date. 60-90 days from the date of the rental (promised delivery of goods or services). That might be a year from when they paid. I will still take paypal for the full amount if it is what they want to do but I also check into the identity and public records of the person I am dealing with.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 28, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> There is no "perfect," payment method, unless you require the renter to wire the money to you, or pay cash, or send you a money order - and that makes you look like a scammer.



The first two yes, wire and cash, but not a money order. Not only are there fake money orders but money orders can also bounce. You might find info stating they cannot bounce but this is completely false. They are safer than a check from a careless money manager but not a scammer. They can cancel a money order as lost or stolen and get a refund. Then once the recipient deposits it, it will bounce.


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## DeniseM (Jul 28, 2016)

If you refuse to accept credit card payments, you lose a huge chunk of your potential renters who "need" to finance their vacation, or they can't make the purchase.

So, I think you just have to chalk it up to the "cost of doing business."

That being said, I have never had someone "force" a dispute on me.  I have had a few that I negotiated, but nothing nefarious.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 28, 2016)

I don't refuse. I just don't push it hard as a payment method. I think I have only had two renters that wanted to use paypal for the whole amount but I don't do that many.

I had one renter that sent me a bunch of money orders. I didn't even ask for them. I think they were afraid of sending me a check that had their account number on it. They were fairly upper class people so I know they had a checking account. To each their own.


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## VegasBella (Jul 28, 2016)

Saintsfanfl said:


> I had one renter that sent me a bunch of money orders. I didn't even ask for them. I think they were afraid of sending me a check that had their account number on it. They were fairly upper class people so I know they had a checking account. To each their own.



Or they might do a lot of cash business and would rather not deposit it into a bank


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## Art (Jul 29, 2016)

It  sounds rather draconian, but if it was my week,  I  would call  and officially complain about the rep who knowingly violated the  rules and changed the reservation at the request of someone other than the  owner.

If it costs the rep his job, so be it. Word would get around plenty fast, and that would put a major damper on creativity  by reps responding to requests from anyone other than owners.

Art


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## heathpack (Jul 29, 2016)

Honestly if I knew I was renting my week out at a competitive rate and I had a guy who didn't understand timeshares to this degree, I'd just walk away from the transaction.  There's so many ways that people who don't "get it" can come back to haunt you.  Not worth it IMO unless you're getting a premium rental rate from the guy.


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## GreenTea (Jul 30, 2016)

I like the Cash app for iPhone.   The funds sent to me are cash from the person's checking account.   I accept and it goes directly into my checking account.  Same if I send cash, though my bank charges $1.00 to send money out.  (Other folk's banks don't have that charge)


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## DeniseM (Jul 30, 2016)

If you search the App Store for "Cash" multiple Apps come up.

Is this the Square Cash App?  

Another Tugger recently had a problem with Square in which they closed her account and froze her funds for 90 days after she did her first rental.  Not only that, but they would give her no information about why they did this.  The renter was happy, and there were no problems, so this was perplexing.


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## GreenTea (Jul 30, 2016)

I guess it is by Square.  I had to click to find the more support page.     

I've not had any trouble with using this.


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## Quilter (Jul 31, 2016)

GreenTea said:


> I like the Cash app for iPhone.   The funds sent to me are cash from the person's checking account.   I accept and it goes directly into my checking account.  Same if I send cash, though my bank charges $1.00 to send money out.  (Other folk's banks don't have that charge)



So no fees like PayPal?  

Actually, I've wondered about the fees with Paypal.   Do the fees apply to rentals?


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## DeniseM (Jul 31, 2016)

With PayPal there is a 2.9% fee for business transactions.   With Paypal the renter can use any major credit card.  If you only accept bank transfers you eliminate all the people who want to use a credit card.  I don't know of any payment services that let you accept credit cards for free.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ilene13 (Jul 31, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> With PayPal there is a 2.9% fee for business transactions.   With Paypal the renter can use any major credit card.  If you only accept bank transfers you eliminate all the people who want to use a credit card.  I don't know of any payment services that let you accept credit cards for free.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If they make a deposit to your PayPal account without stating it is business there is no fee.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 31, 2016)

ilene13 said:


> If they make a deposit to your PayPal account without stating it is business there is no fee.



Right. If they state the payment is between family or friends. Then the fee for using a credit card is paid by the sender not the receiver.


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## DeniseM (Jul 31, 2016)

True - but it is a violation of paypal terms to ask someone to make a friends and family payment for a business transaction, and it voids their Paypal protection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fasttr (Jul 31, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> True - but it is a violation of *papal* terms to ask someone to make a friends and family payment for a business transaction,



Geez... the Pope gets involved in everything these days.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 31, 2016)

Fasttr said:


> Geez... the Pope gets involved in everything these days.



Pretty sure it's an unwritten TUG rule, "Don't be dissin' The Pope."  Five Hail Mary's should take care of it.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 31, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> True - but it is a violation of papal terms to ask someone to make a friends and family payment for a business transaction, and it voids their Paypal protection.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Wouldn't rental payments be excluded from PayPal buyer protection anyway?


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## DeniseM (Jul 31, 2016)

Although real estate sales are not permitted by Paypal, they do permit vacation rentals.

You can probably get away with doing a few rentals using friends and family, but if you are doing a lot, Paypal will notice....


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